# HD - LD: When worlds collide



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

My W has never sexually starved me in 21 years. That doesn't mean she says "yes" to every request. It does mean that worst case she asks if we can connect tomorrow. That said she IS the LD partner. A few months ago in the heat of an argument she basically said she did not want to continue our sexual relationship. 

I let that sit for 24 hours. Then we went for a long walk without cell phones. Miles from the house I very calmly told her:
- I love you, am committed to you and the marriage
- I don't want you to feel this relentless "pressure" to do something you don't want
- I am not ok being "celibate/near celibate"
- I then explained an option that can only be described as the "lightest" possible version of an open marriage
As expected she:
- Freaked - I got 10 minutes of anger, anxiety and accusations that I was "not" committed. I stayed totally calm and firmly explained this seemed the best option for "her" given where we were. 
- I then got 10-15 minutes of dead silence. Frankly that silence could have lasted an hour or days or if need be weeks. And I would have been ok with that. She knows me. I was done talking, it was time for her to "decide" what SHE wanted. 
- She broke the silence with "I am committed to you and our marriage. I will do whatever it takes to make you happy". 
- I responded in kind. 
- She took me to bed that night and rocked my world (like she usually does). And FWIW I did what I always do - which is make it as much fun for her as possible. 

The following week she aggressively raised this topic a few times. Each time angry/indignant that I could even "consider" what I had suggested. Each time, smiling I replied with: "Darling, we can talk about what "I" said, provided you are willing to discuss "WHY" I said it. "Do you wish to have the entirety of that conversation"? And each time she gave me a devilish smile and changed the subject. 

But I did what I did to preserve our marriage. Because if she went down the path of sexlessness I know with certainty what would happen:
- Every kind/loving gesture I made would be viewed with the unspoken (and toxic) question in her mind. "Is he doing that hoping I will have sex with him"?
- Every unkind act, every argument would be seen as "He is just being a jerk because I am NOT having sex with him"

How can a marriage survive that? It can't. At that point all you have are two people choosing to believe that a piece of paper (marriage certificate) is more important than their happiness, and ultimately their mental and physical health. 

Not on my watch.


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## Married&Confused (Jan 19, 2011)

i've often wondered what my wife would say if i said to her since you don't feel sex is important in this marriage you don't mind if i get it somewhere else?

i guess the question is how can you continue to do the kind/loving gestures if you are never 'rewarded' with sex? i even hate the 'rewarded" aspect like i need to do something right in order to have sex with my wife.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Maybe, just maybe, I'm afraid if I do issue this type of ultimatum, he'll say - fine, then let's separate. I'm afraid, deep down inside that the issue is he wants sex, just not with me and I can't bear that if it was the truth.

And that I do not want or desire that outcome.

So I guess I, personally, am stuck between a rock and hard place and need to decide what I'm willing to risk.

It sure didn't help when he made a joke (it was a joke), but about this very sensitive issue so it didn't make me laugh that if he lost weight, and I lost weight, the payoff to the winner would be: I (him) get to have sex with anyone in the world and you get to have sex with me once a month - that makes me a winner either way. When I looked at him, he then said, well - no, that makes me a loser too - HA HA

He can really be a totally insensitive jerk - don't know why I still love this man.

I have to keep telling myself over and over and over and over - he's had a brain injury, he's had a brain injury - as sometimes I feel like giving him one myself with a cast-iron skillet!

But...back to you, I'm impressed that you had the "b****" to put it out on the line. Luckily, it appears your wife loves you enough to compromise - I'm afraid mine wouldn't...maybe that's why I'm still stuck in this rut.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

M&C,
Before you go "there" I would ask yourself some questions:
- Are you playful, fun a little bit challenging (NOT in jerky way). Huge difference between challenging and stubborn
- Do you think she is playing "game" with you over sex, or does she truly lack desire>
- Do you know what things you do that behaviorally "turn" her on/turn her "off"?
- Did you read my post on the "thermostat" setting? Are you warm/she is cooler? That will kill most women's passion.

Creating desire while difficult, is incredibly rewarding. Any fool (myself included) can issue ultimatums. If you read my stuff, the vast majority of my activity goes into creating desire and is effective. I ONLY threaten to use the 'neutron bomb' when provoked beyond reason and that is thankfully VERY rare.



Married&Confused said:


> i've often wondered what my wife would say if i said to her since you don't feel sex is important in this marriage you don't mind if i get it somewhere else?
> 
> i guess the question is how can you continue to do the kind/loving gestures if you are never 'rewarded' with sex? i even hate the 'rewarded" aspect like i need to do something right in order to have sex with my wife.


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## Married&Confused (Jan 19, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> M&C,
> Before you go "there" I would ask yourself some questions:
> - Are you playful, fun a little bit challenging (NOT in jerky way). Huge difference between challenging and stubborn
> - Do you think she is playing "game" with you over sex, or does she truly lack desire>
> ...


I read your other post. I am the hot one, she is cold.

I start out playful but after a while I just get so sexually frustrated that I end up groping her and I know that doesn't end well.

I really think it is a lack of desire, but also a game to her. Instead of just saying she has no desire she uses exceuses such as "I'm not a night person." or "I'm not a morning person". lately, she mentions how tired she is as soon as I walk in the door when I get home. She may be tired but it's like she puts that barrier up immediately so there's no further thought or discussion about sex.

She will also mention that she knows I'm frustrated, but that's as far as it will go. I have even suggested that intercourse isn't necessary. maybe just oral sex or a hand job for now. It kills me that I would even make that compromise but still nothing.

She has told me what she needs to be in the mood, things like holding hands, cuddling, walks, dates, going places together, good conversation. I can't believe that there hasn't been a good deal of all those things over the past few months while there hasn't been any sex.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Stop all of it. Seriously. And say "nothing" to her about sex. If she complains about wanting affection - just look at her calmly and say "if you want touch - come touch me - I am not rejecting you". Let HER come to you. Because you have crowded her to the point of shut down. 

Stop initiating saying "I love you", stop doing anything at all like that. Spend less time at home and more at the gym or doing something constructive. 

BUT - when you are with her. Be fun and playful verbally and a good companion. 

NEVER EVER EVER GROPE HER. Groping shows a lack of respect for her and a lack of self control for you. 

If she starts teasing you sexually just smile and ignore it. 
Don't get snippy OR sexually aggressive. Just ignore the teasing. If she wants sex and approaches you - do it. But don't act different the next day - do NOT go back to kissing her azz. Or she will go back to making you celibate.



Married&Confused said:


> I read your other post. I am the hot one, she is cold.
> 
> I start out playful but after a while I just get so sexually frustrated that I end up groping her and I know that doesn't end well.
> 
> ...


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

M&C Can you call her out when she plays games. This is incredibly cruel. In addition to what MEM advises, can you always decode her behavior by calmly and with self-assurance reveal her game to her. Remember your desire is normal, your wife's behavior is very abnormal. 

Please don't let this situation make you feel as if you are asking too much of her or that you should not want to have sex with your own wife. Sometimes in the isolation of a relationship, the torturer gets the victim to side with them. In a way that what she is doing (may be too extreme but you get my meaning I think) I am gland you are her it helps to reaffirm your normality which needs support in view of what you are experiencing. . 

Call her out when she teases and baits you just to get you going and then not following through like an immature teen. Let her know you get it and you have no intension of playing games. She will get pissed put exposing the game makes it less appealing. But she will start doing something else that may be as off putting. 

I don't know if pointing out that as a mature married woman you are surprised at her juvenile antics, not angry though. Just like an evaluation of a student. And then totally disengage from her in a friendly way. Before doing that check with other poster to see if it is right.


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## TrueGentleman (Apr 29, 2009)

This is an area where I'm still not sure how to proceed.

We've been together for over 7 years now. The sex during the first year was amazing (for both of us), but my wife fell into a severe depression a little bit into the second year. Between the depression and the anti-depressants, her sex drive took a nosedive (meaning sex once every 1 or 2 months) since then. During the early stages of the depression, she genuinely wanted to have sex even though she had little drive or desire. Eventually, that genuine desire to meet my needs was replaced with feelings of guilt over not being able to meet them and the feeling that she was "broken." She started off with asking me not to initiate sex and to let her do that (which seemed fair at the time), and eventually I gave up kissing her passionately when we weren't engaged in foreplay, flirting, playfully touching her in sexual ways, making sexual jokes or comments, and finally demanding that I never bring up wanting to have sex. As one might guess, we eventually had a gigantic fight when I couldn't keep all of my feelings bottled up and I would bring up wanting sex just to get her reassurance that it still mattered to her. 

I stopped pushing the issue 3 years ago and only got into the discussion if she started it. But to this day, any time I indicate that I am not happy with a quickie once every 4 to 8 weeks, she will go off on how sex isn't that important and how if I'm not happy about the sex part then it means that everything else we have isn't good enough for me, and I'm sure you've heard the rest of it many times over. I never bought any of the reasons she gave for why sex wasn't important, and frankly I don't think that she really believed them either, but they made her feel less guilty about it and got me to shut up.

She seems to have done a good job of convincing herself that sex isn't that important and if I don't feel like I'm getting enough if it, then it's my problem alone.

I'm not okay with being "nearly celibate" either. I gave up trying to approach the issue with logic and reason, as it always ended up not fixing anything and with her feeling even less like having sex. I am not prepared to walk away, and I doubt that I ever will be, as we have a baby girl who is almost a year old now. My sister's ex-husband wanted out of their relationship when their daughter was a year and a half old, primarily because he was fed up with years of very little sex and couldn't take the constant rejections. That was four years ago, and my wife still won't speak to him. I still think little of him as a man for walking away the way he did, and I will not be like him.

So what does a guy do when he is not okay with a mostly sexless marriage, but is also unwilling to walk away from his family? I hadn't thought of suggesting a light "open marriage" before. I don't think it would go over well, but I suppose that is the point, isn't it? 

I'm leaving this alone for the time being... I'm working on myself, trying to regain my self-confidence, standing up to her when she pushes my boundaries, and trying to get fit again. We've had sex 3 or 4 times since the baby was born, and it hasn't started feeling "good" to her yet, but it's finally stopped being painful. She acknowledges that she needs to do this now or "we'll never have sex again." So I do appreciate that she is making more of an effort now than she has in years. If we're going to have a second child, we don't want to wait too long (she'll be 35 this year), but I also don't want to have this whole sex issue remaining unresolved for another few years.

I want her to acknowledge that yes, sex is very important in a marriage and that if I would like sex twice a week, having sex once every couple of months when she feels like it is not a compromise. I don't expect that we will have sex every time that I feel like it, but I don't think it is wrong to expect that as a married couple, we will be having sex regularly.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

TG if you exited the relationship after exhausting all options would you still feel that you did something wrong? 

I understand where the notions comes from that sex is not important. When my relationship was in trouble, I had very much less sex with my husband. He is dominant and I am submissive so he is does not take no for an answer for more than 10 days in a row. He did not force me he was gently insistent. My attitude was that sex was just a physical need for him and that he was masturbating into me instead of using his hand. Hated his touch. 

I was totally ignorant. Where does this notion come from? The influences of my religion and family influences. I was planning to leave but wanted to make a last ditch effort to understand him and relationships. I read all I could get my hands on. 

The biggest impact was that I learned that sex was more than a mechanical release for a man who loves. I had no idea. That changed everything in our relationship. We talked and talked and I finally got it. 

Believe me when I tell you woman really do not understand the nature of sex for a man in a committed relationship. Sometimes it is religion, family, or the pervasive misinformation of male sexuality in general. 

Would she be open to learning what she does not know? Can you talk with her about the misinformation and the real importance of sex? Can you also let her know that the relationship in trouble, she has a right to know and indeed an obligation to know the impact of her actions on the health of her marriage.


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## TrueGentleman (Apr 29, 2009)

Catherine602 said:


> TG if you exited the relationship after exhausting all options would you still feel that you did something wrong?


Before I started reading the discussions here, I would have felt that I did something wrong no matter what.

Now that I've read about all of this -- and that I am starting to understand it -- I might not feel that I did something wrong. However, with a child involved, the only way that I could feel that I hadn't done something wrong would be if I felt that she was somehow in danger. I suppose if we had actually exhausted all options and if I felt that my wife had genuinely put forth the effort but it was clear that things were not going to work, then I might get over the feeling that I did something wrong. If I left because I was willing to put forth the effort but she was not, I would always wonder if there was something I could have done differently.



Catherine602 said:


> I understand where the notions comes from that sex is not important. When my relationship was in trouble, I had very much less sex with my husband. He is dominant and I am submissive so he is does not take no for an answer for more than 10 days in a row. He did not force me he was gently insistent. My attitude was that sex was just a physical need for him and that he was masturbating into me instead of using his hand. Hated his touch.
> 
> I was totally ignorant. Where does this notion come from? The influences of my religion and family influences. I was planning to leave but wanted to make a last ditch effort to understand him and relationships. I read all I could get my hands on.
> 
> The biggest impact was that I learned that sex was more than a mechanical release for a man who loves. I had no idea. That changed everything in our relationship. We talked and talked and I finally got it.


If sex was just a physical need then we wouldn't need partners. When my wife and I were having sex regularly (once or twice a week), I rarely took care of it myself. Even later on, after we had sex, I'd often be good for 4 or 5 days. If it's been a long time, then masturbation helps me manage, but only buys me a day or two.



Catherine602 said:


> Would she be open to learning what she does not know? Can you talk with her about the misinformation and the real importance of sex? Can you also let her know that the relationship in trouble, she has a right to know and indeed an obligation to know the impact of her actions on the health of her marriage.


We talked about this regularly during the first year, and we were both on the same page as to what sex meant for each of us individually (as physical pleasure and as an emotional connection) and as to how frequently we prefered it (about twice a week once the "honeymoon phase" of doing it like rabbits had run its course). She has a very difficult time getting to trust anybody; for our first Valentine's Day, she gave me a pair of Sportcuffs to use on her; she'd wanted to try it before, but had never trusted anyone enough to put herself in that position until me. Almost all of our most private, intimate conversations that we had in those first few months where we really got to know each other occurred while holding each other after having sex. She confided in me that due to her early sexual experiences, she'd generally kept herself emotionally disconnected during sex and it was mostly because it physically felt good, but after being with me for a few months, she was able to feel that emotional connection during sex that she'd never been able to feel before.

Clearly, she knows the real importance of sex in our relationship. It was only after several months of feeling guilty and "broken" that her story suddenly changed and she started writing it off as unimportant and purely physical anytime I brought it up.


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

TrueGentleman said:


> We've been together for over 7 years now. The sex during the first year was amazing (for both of us), but my wife fell into a severe depression a little bit into the second year. Between the depression and the anti-depressants, her sex drive took a nosedive (meaning sex once every 1 or 2 months) since then.


She she still on anti-depressants and if so what are they?


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## TrueGentleman (Apr 29, 2009)

Atholk said:


> She she still on anti-depressants and if so what are they?


She's been off the meds for almost two years. It was originally Zoloft, but the doc added Wellbutrin at one point to try to counteract the sexual dysfunction.

Of course she would bring up the fact that she was taking the extra med to use against me from time to time.

Went off the meds before trying to conceive, and we conceived very quickly. Baby was born last March. Wife did not get the 2nd trimester horniness, unfortunately.

I realize now that my do anything to please attitude and inability to stand up to het probably did as much to kill her desire as did the meds. They were a convenient excuse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

For the life of me I do not understand this way of thinking, but I do have a GREAT idea for a way to teach her to see what she's doing. 

Take your paycheck and either keep it, or direct deposit it to a savings account. You aren't going to blow it or be a jerk--it's just not going where it would "normally" go. Naturally within a day or two of when it was supposed to have been deposited, she'll notice and say something like: "Hey your check wasn't deposited. What happened?"

Then very calmly look her in the eye and tell her you've decided there's more to marriage than meeting her financial needs, so you've decided to ask her to stop pressuring you for money. Ask her to stop doing things for you because you know she's only doing it so you'll give her money. All the same :bsflag: she's given you about not needing to meet your sexual needs--give her for a little while about meeting her financial needs. 

Now, I'm not saying to wait until the house goes into foreclosure, but let her be mad. Let her squirm. Maybe let a few utilities even be cut off (like cable or garbage service)!  Then at some reasonable point ask if she'd be willing to have a discussion and mention that just in the same way that being married holds a financial responsibility for you--being married holds a sexual responsibility for her. It really is NOT negotiable. You aren't saying she has to do something she hates, but rather that you would be willing to work with her to find the things she enjoys and even finds pleasurable. In the same way that she expects you to work hard and want to meet her needs financially--you want her to work hard and want to meet your needs sexually. 

She may be angry, because when people are shown how they've been behaving badly they often get pi$$ed, but don't swallow her guilt or blame. And I'm not encouraging "tit for tat" here but more like an eye-opening way to explain to a lady that a sexual need is just like a financial need. If she expects YOU to meet her needs, guess she'll have to make the effort to be in it too, huh? Let her stew in it a while if she has to. When she's ready to work together, as a team, on meeting BOTH needs...talk to her. If she's not willing, well then you know where you stand: you're in a marriage with someone who doesn't respect you enough to meet their responsibilities and who doesn't intend to meet your needs no matter what. You can make your own decisions from there.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

AC,
This is a place where we are of like mind. HOWEVER I would only get to the financial blow torch AFTER regaining basic respect in the R. As much as I find her behavior SO truly selfish it is best to fix the non-sexual respect issue before using the HAMMER.




Affaircare said:


> For the life of me I do not understand this way of thinking, but I do have a GREAT idea for a way to teach her to see what she's doing.
> 
> Take your paycheck and either keep it, or direct deposit it to a savings account. You aren't going to blow it or be a jerk--it's just not going where it would "normally" go. Naturally within a day or two of when it was supposed to have been deposited, she'll notice and say something like: "Hey your check wasn't deposited. What happened?"
> 
> ...


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

TG - I'm on anti-depressants (since last year and husband's brain injury to deal with the issues), and I made the doctor put me on one that wouldn't interfere with sexual function and I've had no issues whatsoever.

As you well know, not a good excuse for your wife - just another one she thinks she can use effectively.


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## MsLonely (Sep 23, 2010)

I agree most of the posts here.
Just noticed a very interesting situation here.
Most husbands think their wives are playing dirty mind games with them.
I'd like to ask the ladies here. How many of you are playing mind games with your husbands?
How come most husbands view their wives in this way? Whenever they describe their wives, you would notice they all said the wife has been playing games.
Just want to assure you that your wives were not that boring everyday thinking about playing mind games with you guys.
Don't you worry too much?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Married&Confused (Jan 19, 2011)

A lot of good advice here.

Unfortunately I feel like I'm tired of trying. I've done the things like take care of myself, lost weight, etc... but I just feel like giving up. Sometimes I just feel resigned to live in a sexless marriage and feel better for a few days bevause the sex issue is gone, but the frustration never goes away.

Plus her not interested in sex makes me not interested in providing the nonsexual intimacy she wants, which then just makes the relationship spiral downward.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Married&Confused said:


> A lot of good advice here.
> 
> Unfortunately I feel like I'm tired of trying. I've done the things like take care of myself, lost weight, etc... but I just feel like giving up. Sometimes I just feel resigned to live in a sexless marriage and feel better for a few days bevause the sex issue is gone, but the frustration never goes away.
> 
> Plus her not interested in sex makes me not interested in providing the nonsexual intimacy she wants, which then just makes the relationship spiral downward.


If you want to stay married to your wife, don't give up!

I've felt like throwing in the towel on numerous occasions, but I love my husband and am willing to be patient. Now, my patience will only hold so long - I have issues other than no sex, medical issues play a big part in any problem that we have.

My husband, unfortunately, is not the same man I married 26 years ago and never will be - the brain injury made sure of that. So I've spent the last 2 years trying to adapt to who he is and deal with the aftermath of a lot of different behaviors that came out of his injury. This has been extremely difficult, the hardest thing I've ever done in my life - wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy if I had one.

So, in my case, I have to keep reminding myself that I'm dealing with a different animal - a man who is not 100% mentally - who is not who he used to be. I'm trying to adapt to what I like to refer to as a "new normal." Not the normal I was accustomed to for 24 years, but a new normal that can be good, just different.

In your case, if you want to stay married, be patient and try everything. If everything doesn't work, then when/if you leave you can assure yourself you did everything possible to make things work - but in the long run - it does take two.

Maybe it's time to man-up and issue some ultimatums and mean them. And if that doesn't shock her into change, then follow through and leave - might force some action on her part - if it doesn't, then you know where you stand and can leave with a smile on your face.


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## MsLonely (Sep 23, 2010)

Married&Confused said:


> A lot of good advice here.
> 
> Unfortunately I feel like I'm tired of trying. I've done the things like take care of myself, lost weight, etc... but I just feel like giving up. Sometimes I just feel resigned to live in a sexless marriage and feel better for a few days bevause the sex issue is gone, but the frustration never goes away.
> 
> Plus her not interested in sex makes me not interested in providing the nonsexual intimacy she wants, which then just makes the relationship spiral downward.


Your wife might have ignored her own sexual needs. You might want to help her feel young and sexy again by giving her generous compliments and helping something she needs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MsLonely (Sep 23, 2010)

I'm more supportive to daily communication and understanding between the couple.
You can be man up but just be careful how you do it. 
If your wife fell in love with you because you're easy to talk to and romantic but you want to man up and then you become a cold speechless wood.
She would get even more confused that you're not the man she fell for anymore.
So pls pay attention when doing man up things.
Women are simple. We are touched by loving attention, romantic and meaningful moment.
We like to feel desired and loved.
When we don't feel loved, we like to ask why this? why that? We tend to link your behaviors to how much you love us.
Playing mind games is to get more love or whining for not enough attention.
As simply as that.
You want to marry a woman pls love your choice because she will love you back twice.
If you give her craps, get ready to receive tons of shxx.


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## Married&Confused (Jan 19, 2011)

MarriedWifeinLove - I understand what you are saying and I feel for your situation. I think I would be more understanding if there was some 'event" that made my wife unable or less likely to have sex with me.

But she is healthy, exercises, and the once in a blue moon that we do have sex, she enjoys it and always says something like 'we shouldn't wait so long to do it again". but then nothing despite the attention, talks, walks, back rubs, hand holding support, etc... that I give her.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Married&Confused said:


> MarriedWifeinLove - I understand what you are saying and I feel for your situation. I think I would be more understanding if there was some 'event" that made my wife unable or less likely to have sex with me.
> 
> But she is healthy, exercises, and the once in a blue moon that we do have sex, she enjoys it and always says something like 'we shouldn't wait so long to do it again". but then nothing despite the attention, talks, walks, back rubs, hand holding support, etc... that I give her.


You know though, even with "my situation" I'm not as understanding and patient as I need to be and I'm working on that.

Then maybe it's time for an ultimatum that you plan to follow through on. That will sometimes shock a spouse into a change of behavior. Have you given thought to that?


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> AC,
> This is a place where we are of like mind. HOWEVER I would only get to the financial blow torch AFTER regaining basic respect in the R. As much as I find her behavior SO truly selfish it is best to fix the non-sexual respect issue before using the HAMMER.


Just so we're clear, I am not suggesting being a big jerk and trying to "teach her a lesson" kind of behavior. I just think that too often women frankly get lazy about sex because life *is* tiring and they can get away with it. In a way, our society views it as "acceptable" for a woman to just tell her husband "Well I've decided to stop meeting your needs" and he's supposed to put up with that "because there's more to marriage than sex."

Okay--I say that's a matter of probably not understanding that a need is not a "request" or a "I would sure like this" It's a need. Could she really live in a marriage where he just stopped meeting her financial needs...or only gave her $20 every 8 weeks? Oh? No? Why not? "There's more to marriage than money and she committed to him so she HAS to stay otherwise she only loves him for his money."

The two are utterly parallel and yet our society, and no woman I know, would put up with a "money-less" marriage ... and yet somehow they think it's okay to force their husband to put up with a "sex-less" marriage. My guess is that she's never really thought of it like that before. 

Again--she expects him to work hard and meet her need for financial security in the marriage; and he is reasonable to expect her to work hard to meed his need for sexual security. If she can grasp that with just a discussion--coolness. If not, I would think a small demonstration for a short time, with a discussion afterward, might catch her attention.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Affaircare said:


> Just so we're clear, I am not suggesting being a big jerk and trying to "teach her a lesson" kind of behavior. I just think that too often women frankly get lazy about sex because life *is* tiring and they can get away with it. In a way, our society views it as "acceptable" for a woman to just tell her husband "Well I've decided to stop meeting your needs" and he's supposed to put up with that "because there's more to marriage than sex."
> 
> Okay--I say that's a matter of probably not understanding that a need is not a "request" or a "I would sure like this" It's a need. Could she really live in a marriage where he just stopped meeting her financial needs...or only gave her $20 every 8 weeks? Oh? No? Why not? "There's more to marriage than money and she committed to him so she HAS to stay otherwise she only loves him for his money."
> 
> ...


Isn't it possible that she doesn't understand this as a need because it is not a need for her just as he doesn't understand her emotional needs because they are not a need for him? There isn't room for empathy because neither understands the urgency or reality of the need in the other as they've never felt it or grappled with it. Finances are a need for both so the need is mutual. It seems unfair and hurtful to the core of the relationship to withhold a need that is crucial to the well being of the relationship to try and get one's partner to understand.


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## 2010Walkaway (Aug 3, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> she basically said she did not want to continue our sexual relationship.


I'm curious as to why she didn't want to continue the sexual relationship and if maybe you giving the ultimatum diverted the two of you from getting to the bottom of this. Maybe if you're comfortable with it you can say why she wanted the sex to stop.

My concern would be that although you have the sex you want currently, if the original issues which led to her not wanting to have sex remain unresolved, there will likely be problems again/resentment in the future. 

This is not about judging whether or not it is right or wrong to give such an ultimatum - just that either way I think the root of the problem needs to be worked through and, in so doing, it might not even be necessary to issue an ultimatum.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Trenton said:


> Isn't it possible that she doesn't understand this as a need because it is not a need for her just as he doesn't understand her emotional needs because they are not a need for him? There isn't room for empathy because neither understands the urgency or reality of the need in the other as they've never felt it or grappled with it.


To be honest, this is most likely the case. I myself am a female person who has a need for Admiration (something that's often seen as a more "male" need) and thus some females would not "get it" because it isn't a need of theirs. In other words it's kind of like a Love Language, but the reason it's called a need is because it's not a "want" but "in order to be in this relationship, XYZ is required." 

Another good example of a need that is often misunderstood by female people is the need for "Physical Attractiveness." It's not always just a male need--some females need it too--but it does TEND to be more guys than guys statistically I think. But for this person, they married someone based on the idea of having a spouse that had what they consider to be a pleasant physical exterior. A good example of this as a need and not "shallowness" would be an ambassador in a foreign country. One of his functions in his career is to be representative of the USA and host dignitaries and such--and thus one of the things he may have looked for in a spouse (reasonably so) would be a physically attractive spouse who would project a certain kind of image of success and affluence. Now for some it is part of the job--but for some it's just one of the items on the list of reasons they pick someone--yet what do women often do? Let themselves go physically and say "That's so shallow! There's more to life than looks!"  And not suggesting a person has to look 20 at 40, but if you're 40 work with what you've been given. Comb or fix your hair, dress nicely in clothing that fits well, wear a little makeup, bathe, wear cologne. You know? 

If women can say they "need" domestic support to feel loved, I don't understand why they prickle at a man saying he "needs" sex or a physically attractive spouse. It's all the same. It's what that person needs. 



> *Finances are a need for both so the need is mutual.*


Nope. I have not now nor have I ever been a woman who was unable to support myself. Even when I was a SAHM I watched 3 other kids while I stayed home with mine and earned enough to live on. I don't have a need for finances and if I wanted something I'd earn it myself. But that's just me. I'm not saying those who are SAHM's are good, bad, or otherwise--I'm just saying that part of their needs might be a spouse who provides a certain standard of living, a certain lifestyle they are used to, and who offers security for herself and the family. Know what I mean? I myself don't need that even when I'm married--I'm secure on my own. So to recap, I need Admiration, don't need Finances. If someone were to purposefully deny me money, I wouldn't really care because I'm cool with that. If they were to purposefully deny me Admiration, I would not feel loved or secure or intimate or like sharing. 

In this family, in this dynamic, Married&Confused's wife has a need I guessed at--Finances--and expects him to work hard to meet her need. It's part of his responsibility as a married man. And yet HER responsibility to him, she is not willing to work at or willing to meet his need. So my guess was that she'd never thought of it like that and thought she'd learn if she could see it in action. 



> It seems unfair and hurtful to the core of the relationship to withhold a need that is crucial to the well being of the relationship to try and get one's partner to understand.


I agree which is why it is 100% unfair and hurtful for her to willingly withhold sex--which is crucial to the well-being of the relationship. Talking to her one respectful human being to another has not been productive, so my thought was maybe to SHOW her rather than just say it. Sometimes words are like Charlie Brown's teacher: wah-wah-wah.... but an action will catch the attention and make it clearer. 

So far, her ACTIONS have been to be unfair and hurtful to the core of the relationship by withholding what is crucial to the well-being of the relationship.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Walkaway,
Totally fair question. She was feeling angry and resentful "in the moment". Last year her raw sexual desire for me pretty much died. 

My part was not doing the things outside the bedroom that turn her on. 

Environmentally she had the most stressful year of her life - running a small business - LOTS of difficult issues with our kids and pre-menopause. 

The work schedule stopped her from exercising and that sure didn't help. 

Thing is she DID initiate sex at least once a week. I didn't initiate hardly ever because I could tell she was tired/stressed / sad. But when she initiated it seemed genuine so I didn't decline. In hindsight I realize that she was initiating out of guilt/fear knowing how important a healthy sex life is to me. She gradually felt more resentment and it exploded out of her that night. 

Since then - many of her stressors have reduced. She has cranked her exercise regime up to 5/week and I have consciously made an effort to do the things that create desire. 

As for sex itself. All I can say is I have learned her body and I am patient and giving when she wants that and when she wants rough and aggressive I am - rough and aggressive. I periodically have asked her questions "afterwards". I generally don't ask "was that good for you"? Because she consistently says "yes". Instead I ask if she would like more or less of specific things. Or the open ended "what can I do to make it even better for you"? 

That said she knows that at 1/week I won't complain, or act in any way different than at 2 or 3 or 4/week. She has cranked it up to 2/3 times a week so it "seems" she is back to "happy". Besides the other morning she said the magic words to me. "I am in love with you". 

As for my W. When angry she has a deep mean streak. I have asked her if "in general" she feels resentful about the fact that I don't view sex as "optional" in marriage. She says she isn't resentful "in general" and that she was just very angry that day. 



2010Walkaway said:


> I'm curious as to why she didn't want to continue the sexual relationship and if maybe you giving the ultimatum diverted the two of you from getting to the bottom of this. Maybe if you're comfortable with it you can say why she wanted the sex to stop.
> 
> My concern would be that although you have the sex you want currently, if the original issues which led to her not wanting to have sex remain unresolved, there will likely be problems again/resentment in the future.
> 
> This is not about judging whether or not it is right or wrong to give such an ultimatum - just that either way I think the root of the problem needs to be worked through and, in so doing, it might not even be necessary to issue an ultimatum.


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