# How to enjoy life without being guilty, openess in relationship



## ABHAY7681 (Jan 4, 2018)

This forum is for discussion on infidelity, cheating on your partner, 

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## toblerone (Oct 18, 2016)

Uh


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## Pepe1970 (Aug 25, 2017)

ABHAY7681 said:


> This forum is for discussion on infidelity, cheating on your partner,
> 
> Sent from my vivo V3 using Tapatalk


Is that a question or just the heading of the forum??

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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Meaning you cheated and don't want to feel guilty about it? Why do you think you are entitled to not feel guilty? Cheating usually destroys the quality of the betrayed life, usually for a long time. Seem like the quality of the betrayers life being destroyed to a much smaller extent by guilt is more then fair

Infidelity is like car accident where everyone loses a limb. No one gets out unscathed. It changes everyone's lives. Even the ones who don't see it at first assuming you are not a sociopath. 

What is your story exactly?


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

An older guy's perspective:

We are all imperfect human beings who face a world full of temptations. We are suppose to resist those temptations, but sometimes people fail. When that happens, if we are lucky, we see our true character.

If he really repents and makes structural changes in his life, and through actions shows he is a different and stronger person, then maybe he is worthy of and can enjoy forgiveness. At that point guilt really belongs to the person he use to be. Not sure there are any other ways to enjoy life without being guilty.

To lead a good life we need to avoid mistakes and learn from the ones we make, so they never occur again.


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## ABHAY7681 (Jan 4, 2018)

toblerone said:


> Uh


Be a bit more elaborative. Thanks 

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## ABHAY7681 (Jan 4, 2018)

Young at Heart said:


> An older guy's perspective:
> 
> We are all imperfect human beings who face a world full of temptations. We are suppose to resist those temptations, but sometimes people fail. When that happens, if we are lucky, we see our true character.
> 
> ...


To answer to that, everyone has been designed to cheat, its just the social obligation and closed ones feel that leads to one level of infidelity, now as per you, if you are with your partner and some one so drop dead gorgeous passea nearby,, u wont turn ur head..... Its natural. Infidelity starts than and there 

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## ABHAY7681 (Jan 4, 2018)

Pepe1970 said:


> Is that a question or just the heading of the forum??
> 
> Sent from my QMV7A using Tapatalk


Well its heading of the forum and it deals with the truth of facts called infidelity . Is it normal or forced.. Etc etc 

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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

ABHAY7681 said:


> To answer to that, everyone has been designed to cheat, its just the social obligation and closed ones feel that leads to one level of infidelity, now as per you, if you are with your partner and some one so drop dead gorgeous passea nearby,, u wont turn ur head..... Its natural. Infidelity starts than and there
> 
> Sent from my vivo V3 using Tapatalk


Even asexual people?


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

ABHAY7681 said:


> To answer to that, everyone has been designed to cheat, its just the social obligation and closed ones feel that leads to one level of infidelity, now as per you, if you are with your partner and some one so drop dead gorgeous passea nearby,, u wont turn ur head..... Its natural. Infidelity starts than and there
> 
> Sent from my vivo V3 using Tapatalk


As Jimmy Carter famously said yes he has looked at other women and lusted in his heart for them, but not acted on that.

I agree with Jimmy. A pretty woman can turn my head, but unless I do something beyond looking, it is not really cheating. My wife and I have some clearly understood boundaries. 

Could cheating start with a turned head, a request for a phone number a shared meal? Yes, but cheating usually requires many actions and is a journey that can be stopped at many points.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

ABHAY7681 said:


> To answer to that, everyone has been designed to cheat, its just the social obligation and closed ones feel that leads to one level of infidelity, now as per you, if you are with your partner and some one so drop dead gorgeous passea nearby,, u wont turn ur head..... Its natural. Infidelity starts than and there
> 
> Sent from my vivo V3 using Tapatalk


No we have not been designed to cheat, but to be faithful. Its our weakness and selfishness that leads to cheating. 
I am guessing that you are trying to justify cheating, you wont.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

It's more likely women were designed to look for the best human male possible for strong children. Whether he is committed or not to another does not matter. 

It's more likely men compete with each other to attract women to spread their genes and also look for the best candidate to spread those genes. They will spread them with more than one healthy woman. 

There is a difference between the primitive human and the modern human. Though, sometimes it's tough to tell. It is likely that the more wealthy a society gets, the more it wanders from long-term committed relationships and large families.


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## pragmaticGoddess (Nov 29, 2017)

To say that someone is gorgeous will make you turn your head and by implication cheat is reducing yourself and people to animals. 

As a woman who is married, a drop dead gorgeous man does not make me want to get in bed with them. Also, I can see you think it’s really not your fault if you cheat because oops why did that woman happen to be born so good looking? 

Reading your post, I feel very blessed my husband doesn’t share your opinion. Not because he won’t cheat on me, but because he’s a man who doesn’t to cheat to enjoy life.


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## Rhubarb (Dec 1, 2017)

ABHAY7681 said:


> How to enjoy life without being guilty, openess in relationship


Many people enjoy life in traditional closed relationships. Many people don't want an open relationship. If they want an open relationship it's often best to figure that out before saying vows so they don't screw over someone else.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

@Diana7 said: "No we have not been designed to cheat, but to be faithful."

Wishful thinking most likely fueled by religious precepts.

Human beings are not monogamous by nature, if we were the concept of infidelity wouldn't exist in our dictionaries, period. Everything else is sheer rationalization to one's designs.

For your information most higher primates do cheat any time they are able to. People should educate themselves (in scientific matters), instead of living through, and making morally ideals conveyed through religious precepts as matter of fact truths. Which they are nothing but mankind's idealistic/socially evolutionary conveniences for social order throughout part of our history. That we were designed to be faithful: this is a ridiculous statement.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

ABHAY7681 said:


> To answer to that, everyone has been designed to cheat, its just the social obligation and closed ones feel that leads to one level of infidelity, now as per you, if you are with your partner and some one so drop dead gorgeous passea nearby,, u wont turn ur head..... Its natural. Infidelity starts than and there
> 
> Sent from my vivo V3 using Tapatalk


So. Even if it were true which it's not but still so what. Since when is our nature the determining factor for what we do. Welcome to adulthood.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Rob_1 said:


> @Diana7 said: "No we have not been designed to cheat, but to be faithful."
> 
> Wishful thinking most likely fueled by religious precepts.
> 
> ...


You guys who make this argument like the people who may vows don't know what they are promising. I could probably name about 100 things off the top of my head that people do that is not human nature. That's society we choose to do things against our base instincts because we have decided that just because I instincts tell us to do stuff doesn't make it the best choice. 

I would argue just like your point humans are designed to desire monogamous relationships. It's why for the most part it has been the basic standard for most societies in human history.

Why does monogamous marriage continue if not for the fact that most humans aspire to it.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

sokillme said:


> Why does monogamous marriage continue if not for the fact that most humans aspire to it.


This is true. Human pair bonding is a strong natural tendency that is formalized in marriage. And it's quite natural for people to cheat, but that often creates pain and suffering. (Heck, marriage often creates pain and suffering!) So, the idealization of marriage is that cheating can't occur. Only, it does, in reality, because humans - while having a strong tendency to pair bond - also have a strong tendency (although perhaps not _as_ strong) to obtain/pass on the best genes. That mating imperative is the reason why there are only a handful of truly monogamous species in the world - the vast majority "cheat" to improve their mating results. In humans, there is a large psychological component as well as a genetically-driven mating component, making the whole subject far more complex and _psychologically/emotionally_ painful.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

@sokillme said: "Why does monogamous marriage continue if not for the fact that most humans aspire to it."

Because it is social conditioning. Like I said, if we humans we're monogamous the concept of infidelity wouldn't exist for us.

You have to understand that with the advent of agriculture most human settle down to a specific territory, rather than the seasonal migratory patterns that previuosly existed. This lead to wealth, and the keeping/disposal of it lead to social rules where the sexes eventually became a big part of it.

Nonetheless our deep genetic urgings to mate and procreate to pass-on our genes (selfish genes) to the best available (desired traits) mates; we human as highly adaptable beings, and as part of that adaptability, have come to accept and strive for ideals that have become beneficial from a societal point of view rather than a genetic point of view (social conditioning). And yes, most of us strive for these ideals, but please, do not tell me we were borne this way, because it is not so.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

I hate this stupid auto correct speller that change words without you noticing it. In my privious post I meant to say " if we humans "were" rather than "we're".


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

I think most humans desire serial monogamy.


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## Rhubarb (Dec 1, 2017)

Rob_1 said:


> @Diana7 said: "No we have not been designed to cheat, but to be faithful."
> 
> Wishful thinking most likely fueled by religious precepts.
> 
> ...


I didn't know apes got married.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Rhubarb said:


> I didn't know apes got married.


Monogamy is not the same as marriage


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

@Ynot said "Monogamy is not the same as marriage". This statement is absolutely CORRECT.

Marriage is an institution created by man in which we adhere to certain standards by which we accept to behave towards our mate (s). It is not a biological part of us like the urge to pass-on our genes, but a by-product of it (socially speaking).


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Rhubarb said:


> I didn't know apes got married.


I love it when people use apes and humans like they are interchangeable. Apes don't haves sophisticated language they don't have writing. Yes the are genetically similar to human that's where it stops, their couture and self awareness is completely different. It's really a stupid argument. It's like comparing a Porsche to a go-cart. Yes they both have wheels and are used for transportation. 

Let me ask you why does no one ever use this argument when it comes to hygiene standards. Apes don't use toilet paper or bush their teeth, should we stop using those things? Is it an excuse for people to stop doing those things. Or how about clothing feel the same way about that? It's preposterous. If you want to screw around go for it, just don't lie about it, and most of all once you do don't blame it on being no more responsible for your actions then an ape.

My answer to this argument every time I hear it is -

So. 

Really your argument seems to be marriage is a cultural thing. OK, why does it make it any less valid then any other cultural thing. No one is forced to participate in it.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Rob_1 said:


> @Ynot said "Monogamy is not the same as marriage". This statement is absolutely CORRECT.
> 
> Marriage is an institution created by man in which we adhere to certain standards by which we accept to behave towards our mate (s). It is not a biological part of us like the urge to pass-on our genes, but a by-product of it (socially speaking).


So is law, art, education, writing and on and on.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Rob_1 said:


> @Ynot said "Monogamy is not the same as marriage". This statement is absolutely CORRECT.
> 
> Marriage is an institution created by man in which we adhere to certain standards by which we accept to behave towards our mate (s). It is not a biological part of us like the urge to pass-on our genes, but a by-product of it (socially speaking).


I have made the same argument a number of times. I have also made the same argument in regards to religion. But it appears that many willfully choose to conflate monogamy with marriage and god with religion


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Rob_1 said:


> @sokillme said: "Why does monogamous marriage continue if not for the fact that most humans aspire to it."
> 
> Because it is social conditioning. Like I said, if we humans we're monogamous the concept of infidelity wouldn't exist for us.
> 
> ...


Again. So.

Besides that I think humans want everything, like everything else when it comes to humans we are selfish by nature. Don't see this as a profound realization.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

@sokillme said: "Again. So.

Besides that I think humans want everything, like everything else when it comes to humans we are selfish by nature. Don't see this as a profound realization."

I agree. What irks me is the intense rationalization of things by people to the point that it becomes real, a truth.

We all can rationalize anything to a billion outcomes, but still it doesn't make true. Take for example the concept of a particular religious concept; one person created the original concept, with the passage of time it becomes through people's own rationalizations something completely different with a myriad of interpretations. But each and every one claims to be the real one....what gives???


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

I would argue that what makes humans the most evolved and successful animal is the drive in us to fight against our base instincts for a greater good. Monogamy is a big part of that. 

In this case it works just like farming. Which in my mind means there is more to human instinct then just desire, lots of things are done despite the desire to do them. Farming is a good example, the human intellect at some point figured out that planting crops this will be beneficial for us in the long term, much more so then hunting. That is a part of evolution if you will. No one would argue that we shouldn't farm because in the pre stone age we were hunters. 

If you are going to talk about evolution you can't take away the fact that our brains and how they establish rules and systems that help perpetuate the species is a part of that. At that point you have to move away from just using the physical and add the intellectual to evolution as well. This is exactly why we are not apes and why we shouldn't use apes in comparison. Our intellect adds a power boost to our growth as a species.

Our evolutionary instinct is to improve our station. Part of human instinct is to act against of our nature, so monogamy can be a part of that. As is farming. Doesn't mean it's not also in our nature to want so mate with lots of people. It's obviously both. 

Which is why ultimately I think this line of thinking has no merit. 

Again I say - So.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

@sokillme: place a human being away from the rest of humans (it has happened) since early in life. What do you get? See if what we are talking here applies.

Yes, intellect goes hand in hand with human evolution, but it needs direction, nurturing, from the get go.

We as a species desire to mate, to have a partner. It is in our biological nature. You can observe it on the onset of puberty, more pronounce in some than in others, based on hormonal load (given the same social environment). And this desire stays with us through our lives. This is manifested to various degrees in each individual (it all really depends on your particular hormonal load/moral upbringing). But yes, we as part of a particular human society might strive for monogamy when entering into a relationship, but as we all know, a lot of times it doesn't end so; hence, infidelity. 

I keep saying it, but it somehow does not resonate: "we are not monogamous by nature" , but we strive to do so.

Pre historical and ancient studies on mating rituals and behavior shows clearly that we as a species has never been monogamous. Moreover, our genetic make up clearly shows that we tend to breed indiscriminately (specially when that's all we have to breed). Heh, heh, heh.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

I'm sorry, and I apologise to the OP, but I think that I have highjacked his tread. No more.


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## Rhubarb (Dec 1, 2017)

Ynot said:


> Monogamy is not the same as marriage


Maybe so but when someone says "higher primates do cheat" that implies there is some sort of committed relationship.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Rhubarb said:


> Maybe so but when someone says "higher primates do cheat" that implies there is some sort of committed relationship.


Being monogamous is a committed relationship, but it is not the same as being married. So higher primates can be pair bonded or in some sort of committed relationship but even they stray outside of that relationship


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Rhubarb said:


> Maybe so but when someone says "higher primates do cheat" that implies there is some sort of committed relationship.


Not really. Many practice mate guarding, for example, to prevent the female from mating with other males. Females may try to escape this guarding behavior to mate with another male. If a competitor male is driven off from his mate, the victor will often kill that male's offspring to ensure that his genetic line is the only one left. Cheating is just a convenient term to reflect this competition.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Ynot said:


> Being monogamous is a committed relationship, but it is not the same as being married. So higher primates can be pair bonded or in some sort of committed relationship but even they stray outside of that relationship


Humans are on a different level than higher primates. Through written language making a committed relationship a bit different than said higher primates.


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## Rhubarb (Dec 1, 2017)

sokillme said:


> I love it when people use apes and humans like they are interchangeable. Apes don't haves sophisticated language they don't have writing. Yes the are genetically similar to human that's where it stops, their couture and self awareness is completely different. It's really a stupid argument. It's like comparing a Porsche to a go-cart. Yes they both have wheels and are used for transportation.
> 
> Let me ask you why does no one ever use this argument when it comes to hygiene standards. Apes don't use toilet paper or bush their teeth, should we stop using those things? Is it an excuse for people to stop doing those things. Or how about clothing feel the same way about that? It's preposterous. If you want to screw around go for it, just don't lie about it, and most of all once you do don't blame it on being no more responsible for your actions then an ape.
> 
> ...


Ehhhh? I'm not sure how you got all of that out of my one quip. Perhaps you confused me with someone else. 

Also I'm not the one who stated using the world "cheat" for animals. My point was animals don't "cheat". They do what's in their nature. Humans on the other hand have contracts for their relationships either explicit or implied. Also there may in fact be some genetic aspect to monogamy in humans although it's not 100% of the equation. For instance where does the emotion jealousy come from?


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Married but Happy said:


> Not really. Many practice mate guarding, for example, to prevent the female from mating with other males. Females may try to escape this guarding behavior to mate with another male. If a competitor male is driven off from his mate, the victor will often kill that male's offspring to ensure that his genetic line is the only one left. Cheating is just a convenient term to reflect this competition.


Bucks don't grow antlers for nothing. We could chalk it up to survival of the fittest I guess. Either way, the buck stops here when it comes to his herd.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Rob_1 said:


> @sokillme: place a human being away from the rest of humans (it has happened) since early in life. What do you get? See if what we are talking here applies.
> 
> Yes, intellect goes hand in hand with human evolution, but it needs direction, nurturing, from the get go.
> 
> ...


Marriage and the expectation of monogamy that generally comes with it are also the result of societal needs which have since been resolved. In an era where the pair bonding of two humans of the opposite sex was required, life was lived on the edge of extinction. We are no longer at that point on a day to day basis. A woman does not need a man to go hunt the rabbit to feed their hungry child anymore. Now she can call uber eats and have whatever meal she desire delivered. Marriage as an institution is one who's time has passed. 
The monogamy that generally is expected in marriage is also being rendered obsolete in many case. At a time when every sexual encounter could result in pregnancy, the need for a woman (and a man) to be in a monogamous relationship was much more important. As the care of the child was a tantamount concern. Now with birth control methods being more advanced, such a concern is no longer what it once was. Women who may bear children are also better able to raise the child with no help of a man as well.


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

Rob_1 said:


> @Diana7 said: "No we have not been designed to cheat, but to be faithful."
> 
> Wishful thinking most likely fueled by religious precepts.
> 
> ...


This is such a poorly thought out argument that it's mind boggling. What you are doing is called being an armchair anthropologist. You think that because YOU perhaps are not into monogamy, that the rest of humanity must be the same. So, you make the argument that if we were meant to be monogamous, then there would be no such thing as infidelity. "Period". How about I postulate that if we were meant to by polygamous, or polyandrous, that there would be no such thing as monogamy. Period. Or, no such thing as jealousy? Period.

If you look at the evolutionary record, humans adopted monogamy a LONG time ago. It was an evolutionary change that is adopted almost worldwide, in just about every culture. 

My take on infidelity is that it is not human nature. The desire to procreate is indeed a basic human need, and without it, we would probably go extinct. But, the desire to find a lifetime partner is stronger for most of us than is the need to have sex with every attractive person we see. Most infidelity is a result of the very selfish nature of many people. They think they deserve it, but if their spouse cheats it's the end of the world.

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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Ynot said:


> Marriage as an institution is one who's time has passed.


Perhaps in your view and opinion. Many find the institution as a way to live, raise children and commit until they are pushing up daisies.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Yeswecan said:


> Perhaps in your view and opinion. Many find the institution as a way to live, raise children and commit until they are pushing up daisies.


And many find the institution to be constricting and limiting, hence they never marry or divorce if they do. Before you start casting aspersions, know this - I was married for 24 years. My wife left me. She divorced me. I came to my conclusion the hard way - with experience. But here are some facts - most divorces are filed by women. The silver or gray divorces of long time married couples is estimated to be close to 70 percent. Why? Because not only are we living longer, but so are many others and we do so in better and greater health than we ever did before. Plus the world is changing, whether you like it or not, it is becoming smaller, we can communicate and travel with much more ease and at much less cost than every before. Women (and men) now have more options than at any time in human history.
I don't take any pleasure in recognizing reality, all I can do is accept it for what it is. You might try to do the same rather than trying to deny it


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Ynot said:


> And many find the institution to be constricting and limiting, hence they never marry or divorce if they do. *Before you start casting aspersions, know this - I was married for 24 years. My wife left me. She divorced me.* I came to my conclusion the hard way - with experience. But here are some facts - most divorces are filed by women. The silver or gray divorces of long time married couples is estimated to be close to 70 percent. Why? Because not only are we living longer, but so are many others and we do so in better and greater health than we ever did before. Plus the world is changing, whether you like it or not, it is becoming smaller, we can communicate and travel with much more ease and at much less cost than every before. Women (and men) now have more options than at any time in human history.
> I don't take any pleasure in recognizing reality, all I can do is accept it for what it is. You might try to do the same rather than trying to deny it


You then already have disdain for marriage from your experience. There are many that have had wonderful experiences while married and until death did they part. Your reality is not everyones reality. Please point out where I denied anything you have written. It appears you are trying to have other agree that marriage is dead. Your is for whatever reason.


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## Rhubarb (Dec 1, 2017)

Married but Happy said:


> Cheating is just a convenient term to reflect this competition.


IMO cheating is a poor term to use with animals because it implies a lot of behaviors that simply aren't present in other species. Cheating in the context of relationships implies monogamy as practiced by humans.

In any case I think whether monogamy is natural for humans is irrelevant. I'm not entirely clear why this thread was started, but from the title the OP seems to be promoting open relationships (correct me if I'm wrong). If people want to engage in that they are free to do so. From what I've read, statistically it's not any better than a traditional relationship and perhaps worse. I'm monogamous and married. I also enjoy life and don't feel guilty.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Rhubarb said:


> IMO cheating is a poor term to use with animals because it implies a lot of behaviors that simply aren't present in other species. Cheating in the context of relationships implies monogamy as practiced by humans.


Well, you haven't suggested anything more suitable, so this isn't helpful. I don't really want to type "extra-pair mating activity" when most people know what is meant.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Rob_1 said:


> @Diana7 said: "No we have not been designed to cheat, but to be faithful."
> 
> Wishful thinking most likely fueled by religious precepts.
> 
> ...


Nothing to do with my faith, most non believers I know feel the same way, that faithfulness is vital in a relationship. Its only our self centeredness and selfishness that makes us cheat. BTW, we are not animals.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Ynot said:


> And many find the institution to be constricting and limiting, hence they never marry or divorce if they do. Before you start casting aspersions, know this - I was married for 24 years. My wife left me. She divorced me. I came to my conclusion the hard way - with experience. But here are some facts - most divorces are filed by women. The silver or gray divorces of long time married couples is estimated to be close to 70 percent. Why? Because not only are we living longer, but so are many others and we do so in better and greater health than we ever did before. Plus the world is changing, whether you like it or not, it is becoming smaller, we can communicate and travel with much more ease and at much less cost than every before. Women (and men) now have more options than at any time in human history.
> I don't take any pleasure in recognizing reality, all I can do is accept it for what it is. You might try to do the same rather than trying to deny it


There are more divorces because of falling moral values, lack of responsibility, people not taking their promises made seriously, giving up far too easily, selfishness and the 'its all about me' thing. 
However I know so many good, happy and very long term marriages, and most people still get married at some point.

Going through one divorce didn't make me bitter or put me off marriage at all. I still know that its an amazing thing and that its beneficial for individuals, children and society as a whole.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Yeswecan said:


> You then already have disdain for marriage from your experience. There are many that have had wonderful experiences while married and until death did they part. Your reality is not everyones reality. Please point out where I denied anything you have written. It appears you are trying to have other agree that marriage is dead. Your is for whatever reason.


I never said marriage was dead. I said it was an institution who's time has passed and it has. Look at today's youth they are putting off or delaying marriage because as an institution it is no longer needed to ensure the survival of species. 
My opinion has nothing to do with the demise of my marriage, I merely referred to it in order to point out that I had partaken of it, so I wasn't just rendering an ignorant opinion but one that is based on fact and reality. 
Yes there are many who ride it out until death do us part, but the largest growing segment of divorce spectrum is amongst long term marriages and has been estimated to be as high as 70% which hardly supports your opinion. But even there I would say that the majority of those who do stay together are just riding it out, which is a far cry from enjoying it. They make the best of where they are. So please don't cite the exception to counter the reality.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Ynot said:


> I never said marriage was dead. I said it was an institution who's time has passed and it has*(so it is dead)*. Look at today's youth they are putting off or delaying marriage because as an institution it is no longer needed to ensure the survival of species.*(oddly enough both my daughters want to marry. Both of my nieces just married. We have friends who's daughter just married. What youth do you speak of????) *
> My opinion has nothing to do with the demise of my marriage*(sorry dude, it does)*, I merely referred to it in order to point out that I had partaken of it, so I wasn't just rendering an ignorant opinion but one that is based on fact and reality.*(not sure what reality bus you are riding. May want to get off at the next stop) *
> Yes there are many who ride it out until death do us part, but the largest growing segment of divorce spectrum is amongst long term marriages and has been estimated to be as high as 70% which hardly supports your opinion*(what does this do with the price of eggs in China?)*. But even there I would say that the majority of those who do stay together are just riding it out, which is a far cry from enjoying it*(this is your opinion. Any hard evidence these folks are just riding it out?) *. They make the best of where they are*(any hard evidence?)*. So please don't cite the exception to counter the reality*(again, hard evidence most are just riding it out?)*.


 Are you attempting to rationalize why your W of 24 years left? She did not want to ride it out?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

*Moderator notice:-*

Please stop with the threadjack.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Yeswecan said:


> Are you attempting to rationalize why your W of 24 years left? She did not want to ride it out?


Not at all. I really have no idea why she left. I am merely accepting reality. I could also tell you that both my children recently married - so what? That doesn't change the facts that men and women are getting married later in life and that fewer are getting married. It is no longer the only choice many people have. So they choose other routes to live their life. If you can't bother to do a little research before offering your opinion then it might be best for you to remain quiet on the subject.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

MattMatt said:


> *Moderator notice:-*
> 
> Please stop with the threadjack.


What thread jack, this thread has meandered just as 90% of the threads on TAM does. You don't think that any of the on going discussion is related to "How to enjoy life without being guilty, openess in relationship"?


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Ynot said:


> Not at all. I really have no idea why she left. I am merely accepting reality. I could also tell you that both my children recently married - so what? That doesn't change the facts that men and women are getting married later in life and that fewer are getting married. It is no longer the only choice many people have. So they choose other routes to live their life. If you can't bother to do a little research before offering your opinion then it might be best for you to remain quiet on the subject.


Getting married or not has always been a choice and not the only choice in life. It may have been frowned upon that male or female did not marry but it was reality. 

What research is required? Throw out one statistic? I don't live under a rock. Numbers are only part of the overall picture of society and how it is getting along today. 

And I will determine when it is best I remain silent on any subject.


Ask your W why she left. You apparently don't know. Trying to fathom this. Perhaps it will clear up any misgivings you are having with marriage as an institution.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Yeswecan said:


> Getting married or not has always been a choice and not the only choice in life. It may have been frowned upon that male or female did not marry but it was reality.
> 
> What research is required? Throw out one statistic? I don't live under a rock. Numbers are only part of the overall picture of society and how it is getting along today.
> 
> ...


Here are a few, enjoy!
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr092.pdf
And I don't have any misgiving about marriage. I merely recognize that societally it is no longer required to sustain the species. I am older than you are at age 57, I was raised during a period when we were told that marriage the right thing to do. How many people married because they got pregnant and "did the right thing"? But advances in technology (specifically birth control), communications and transportation(significantly enlarging the choices or options one has), and society (more women have professional careers and other options previously unavailable to them) has overtaken the need to marry. It is simply not required any longer by our society. That doesn't make me anti-marriage, as I said I am merely stating my conclusion based on fact instead of on anecdotal evidence that runs counter to it (such as my own children, who BTW waited until they were much older)
PS, I did ask my wife why she was leaving. Her only response was "we talked about until we were blue in the face" which we never did. So I am as clueless about that as you. I can only surmise that she married young (she was married before she met me) had a child young and never really got to find out what life was all about. But that is pure speculation on my part.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

@TX-SC. You make me laugh. I am a trained, professional biologists and one of my scientific interest throughout most of my life has been cultural and physical anthropology. So I know a little of what I'm talking about. Just this, here is not the forum to make a dissertation. But so understand, that the concept of whether monogamy is a biological (genetic trait) as expressed in genes human's diploid alleles or whether it is a sociatal development the fact is that human cheats, just like most primates (we are primates, whether you like it or not). Most individuals will mate with as many as possible in a world were everyone was free to do as they please. This is inherent in all humans (of course, there's always exceptions to any rule), but you then would have to look up for the genetic/hormonal anomality (s). The fact that you see monogamy around the world (still not everywhere) is easily explained as one of cultural ddveopment, but not always the case. You need to take into the equation, the fact that whether you believe it or not love is a chemical reaction. Individuals whose pheromones are very genetically comparable are going to be attracted to each other instantly. We may suppress this attraction due to sociatal pressures but it is there. This is one of nature's way of ensuring that the genes that are being transmitted are the most genetically adapt to the individual of the species in the environment were they are going to survive. We might not longer need some of the mechanisms to ensure viability and diversity in today's world for us, but make not mistake, all the forces of nature are still working. 

Monogamy is a problem for humans in the evolutionary sense. It does not make sense from an evolutionary point of view for males to be monogamous, when they do not have the burden of females with their gestational period and limited physical resources. The male can produce as many offsprings as possible with as many females as possible, while the female can't. This is part of the genetic make up of humans, males siring as many offsprings as they could. Check the human genomes, please.
So what is it: biological, cultural, or sexual monogamy? 

In this world monogamy is very rare, of all the mammals in the world only about 5 percent are known to be monogamous. Monogamy is hard, even in species known to be monogamous, hard nature gets its way sometimes, and the individual has not other option but to try with another partner.
Us humans, well you can see it here in this and other forums everyday, whether we are or not.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Ynot said:


> Here are a few, enjoy!
> https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr092.pdf
> And I don't have any misgiving about marriage. I merely recognize that societally it is no longer required to sustain the species. I am older than you are at age 57, I was raised during a period when we were told that marriage the right thing to do. How many people married because they got pregnant and "did the right thing"? But advances in technology (specifically birth control), communications and transportation(significantly enlarging the choices or options one has), and society (more women have professional careers and other options previously unavailable to them) has overtaken the need to marry. It is simply not required any longer by our society. That doesn't make me anti-marriage, as I said I am merely stating my conclusion based on fact instead of on anecdotal evidence that runs counter to it (such as my own children, who BTW waited until they were much older)
> PS, I did ask my wife why she was leaving. Her only response was "we talked about until we were blue in the face" which we never did. So I am as clueless about that as you. I can only surmise that she married young (she was married before she met me) had a child young and never really got to find out what life was all about. But that is pure speculation on my part.


Ynot, I'm 52. I have 3 older siblings. We all grew up in the same era as you. My anecdotal evidence is not anecdotal. In my neck of the woods getting married was not told as the right thing to do(exception of pregnancy). Even so, may marriage were successful under that issue. Marriage was what most were doing at the time. Yes, many young women went to college to work on their Mrs. degrees. Many were very successful. However, many found that marriage was only one choice in life(as you pointed out). 

I'm sorry you marriage ended with many unaswered questions.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Yeswecan said:


> Ynot, I'm 52. I have 3 older siblings. We all grew up in the same era as you. My anecdotal evidence is not anecdotal. In my neck of the woods getting married was not told as the right thing to do(exception of pregnancy). Even so, may marriage were successful under that issue. Marriage was what most were doing at the time. Yes, many young women went to college to work on their Mrs. degrees. Many were very successful. However, many found that marriage was only one choice in life(as you pointed out).
> 
> I'm sorry you marriage ended with many unaswered questions.


Actually it is anecdotal. Heck in my own family of 8. I am the only one who is divorced, the rest of them all have 30+years of marriage. Based on that I could say marriage is meant to last forever. But, facts don't lie. Many longer term marriages are failing while the overall divorce rate is falling. The reason it is falling is because fewer young people are getting married or waiting (during which time they make many of the mistakes most people formerly made in their first go around)
Yep, early on, during our hey day, a lot of women just went to college to get the MRS degree. But now more women are attending college than men and those who do are getting professional degrees. Postponing children, if they even decide to have them, until much later, after their careers are firmly established. Many are not marrying at all.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Ynot said:


> I never said marriage was dead. I said it was an institution who's time has passed and it has. Look at today's youth they are putting off or delaying marriage because as an institution it is no longer needed to ensure the survival of species.
> My opinion has nothing to do with the demise of my marriage, I merely referred to it in order to point out that I had partaken of it, so I wasn't just rendering an ignorant opinion but one that is based on fact and reality.
> Yes there are many who ride it out until death do us part, but the largest growing segment of divorce spectrum is amongst long term marriages and has been estimated to be as high as 70% which hardly supports your opinion. But even there I would say that the majority of those who do stay together are just riding it out, which is a far cry from enjoying it. They make the best of where they are. So please don't cite the exception to counter the reality.


 People may get married later now, but most still get married, so they clearly don't agree with you that its out dated.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> People may get married later now, but most still get married, so they clearly don't agree with you that its out dated.


Actually you are as wrong about this as you with almost everything else you post:

In U.S., Proportion Married at Lowest Recorded Levels

Among the total population ages 18 and older, the proportion married dropped from 57 percent in 2000 to 52 percent in 2009. This is the lowest percentage recorded since information on marital status was first collected by the U.S. Census Bureau more than 100 years ago.2 Among women, the proportion married dropped below 50 percent (to 49.9 percent), so the number of unmarried women (including those who are separated, widowed, divorced, and never married) outnumber married women, possibly for the first time in U.S. history. In 2009, there were an estimated 59.5 million adult women who were married, compared with 59.8 million women in other marital categories

But don't let facts stand in the way of your "argument" apparently you just make them up as you go.

Here is another:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/26/us/26marry.html

and an even more recent one:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blog...heres-where-they-live/?utm_term=.f83189772d09

even if there is a 90% probability rate that one would marry at some point in their life. There is still a 46% chance they will divorce leaving 41% remaining married


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## ABHAY7681 (Jan 4, 2018)

chillymorn69 said:


> Even asexual people?


Applies for all, its in the mind, u not only cheat in sex but buisness etc too... )

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## ABHAY7681 (Jan 4, 2018)

Young at Heart said:


> As Jimmy Carter famously said yes he has looked at other women and lusted in his heart for them, but not acted on that.
> 
> I agree with Jimmy. A pretty woman can turn my head, but unless I do something beyond looking, it is not really cheating. My wife and I have some clearly understood boundaries.
> 
> Could cheating start with a turned head, a request for a phone number a shared meal? Yes, but cheating usually requires many actions and is a journey that can be stopped at many points.


Well well, its a thought first, than conceives to idea and finally the effect, yahh we all have our levels of not letting things take a evil turn on us..but may be you can withstand the temptation of some... U may not for others and than again the same thought, idea, effect follows..... 

Circumstances can force you to be what you werent meant to be my friend.. No ones that god like creature.... Thus its in everyone... Its just how deep its burried within everyone 

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## ABHAY7681 (Jan 4, 2018)

Diana7 said:


> No we have not been designed to cheat, but to be faithful. Its our weakness and selfishness that leads to cheating.
> I am guessing that you are trying to justify cheating, you wont.


Yahh am justifying and have every reasons for it, we are designed for the same... And no one puts one hidden likings to weakness unless thats been socially ostracized.... 

Think of someone who is born in a typical islamic nation, where they condemn singing and dancing , and its unholy for them.. Someone have a deep passion for it and now he/she would consider singing /dancing as weakness just because society doesnt take that good.. I mean com on.. We design rules for ourselves....  

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## ABHAY7681 (Jan 4, 2018)

2ntnuf said:


> It's more likely women were designed to look for the best human male possible for strong children. Whether he is committed or not to another does not matter.
> 
> It's more likely men compete with each other to attract women to spread their genes and also look for the best candidate to spread those genes. They will spread them with more than one healthy woman.
> 
> There is a difference between the primitive human and the modern human. Though, sometimes it's tough to tell. It is likely that the more wealthy a society gets, the more it wanders from long-term committed relationships and large families.


Salute...... Thats the real post, agreeing from the core of my heart... And this very thing within us lets us keep wandering.. And infidelity follows... True that 

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## ABHAY7681 (Jan 4, 2018)

pragmaticGoddess said:


> To say that someone is gorgeous will make you turn your head and by implication cheat is reducing yourself and people to animals.
> 
> As a woman who is married, a drop dead gorgeous man does not make me want to get in bed with them. Also, I can see you think it’s really not your fault if you cheat because oops why did that woman happen to be born so good looking?
> 
> Reading your post, I feel very blessed my husband doesn’t share your opinion. Not because he won’t cheat on me, but because he’s a man who doesn’t to cheat to enjoy life.


I wish you be blessed in your ideas.... No one shares his dark sides fearing it would lead to the most heavy loss,, the relationship.... 

As said give a man a mask and he would be the most honest person.... No one wishes to be caught....

Happy for you, keep that happyness till you dont come across some hidden files. everyone has one.... 

Again the basic idea of life, you arent a thief unless you have been proved guilty, so just bask in this happiness and never let the detective within you ( usually every wife has one) survive... Else you may abbreviate your ecstasic happiness ))

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## ABHAY7681 (Jan 4, 2018)

Rhubarb said:


> Many people enjoy life in traditional closed relationships. Many people don't want an open relationship. If they want an open relationship it's often best to figure that out before saying vows so they don't screw over someone else.


True that...... Usually everyone looks for it, subject to agreement between the partners... 99% case one ( the male) is agreeing to it and the other disapproves the same 

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## ABHAY7681 (Jan 4, 2018)

Rob_1 said:


> @Diana7 said: "No we have not been designed to cheat, but to be faithful."
> 
> Wishful thinking most likely fueled by religious precepts.
> 
> ...


Clap clap..... All my thoughts penned here.. Thanks ROB for sharing my mind.. 

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## ABHAY7681 (Jan 4, 2018)

sokillme said:


> So. Even if it were true which it's not but still so what. Since when is our nature the determining factor for what we do. Welcome to adulthood.


Adulthood teaches whats correct to do .. As a teenager if i get used to drinking am not doing correct with my life.... While am adult i know when to hold my drink ( please dont misunderstand to kick drinking) ,,,, thus 

Adulthood usually brings a judjing sense.. Now reflecting back to infidelity... Adulthood gives you thought how to play safe.. And not get caught.... 

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## ABHAY7681 (Jan 4, 2018)

sokillme said:


> You guys who make this argument like the people who may vows don't know what they are promising. I could probably name about 100 things off the top of my head that people do that is not human nature. That's society we choose to do things against our base instincts because we have decided that just because I instincts tell us to do stuff doesn't make it the best choice.
> 
> I would argue just like your point humans are designed to desire monogamous relationships. It's why for the most part it has been the basic standard for most societies in human history.
> 
> Why does monogamous marriage continue if not for the fact that most humans aspire to it.


Sokillme - so one should stick to society and live as per what other wishes and never try to be the real himself. 


Such ideas usually kills passions and leads people to take professions that only respectable class follows.. 

A very indian thought i must say... I usually come across lot many people similar who guide people to follow whats correct as per them and the commotion multiples.... 

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## ABHAY7681 (Jan 4, 2018)

Married but Happy said:


> This is true. Human pair bonding is a strong natural tendency that is formalized in marriage. And it's quite natural for people to cheat, but that often creates pain and suffering. (Heck, marriage often creates pain and suffering!) So, the idealization of marriage is that cheating can't occur. Only, it does, in reality, because humans - while having a strong tendency to pair bond - also have a strong tendency (although perhaps not _as_ strong) to obtain/pass on the best genes. That mating imperative is the reason why there are only a handful of truly monogamous species in the world - the vast majority "cheat" to improve their mating results. In humans, there is a large psychological component as well as a genetically-driven mating component, making the whole subject far more complex and _psychologically/emotionally_ painful.


Well expressed... Thus infidelity and cheating exists in every phase.. We are born to search for the best genes so to replicate ours.... Thats within us 

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## ABHAY7681 (Jan 4, 2018)

Rhubarb said:


> I didn't know apes got married.


Even dogs do, its just they dont celebrate and make it a fancy event as we humans do.... )

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## ABHAY7681 (Jan 4, 2018)

Rob_1 said:


> @Ynot said "Monogamy is not the same as marriage". This statement is absolutely CORRECT.
> 
> Marriage is an institution created by man in which we adhere to certain standards by which we accept to behave towards our mate (s). It is not a biological part of us like the urge to pass-on our genes, but a by-product of it (socially speaking).


Very very correct, we design our standards.. Its just like a cell phone operating software designed not to get updates.. As if it does it will get updated to improved one and the manufacture would loose money... As he was planning for the updated software for his new launch... 

A bit of business comparison .lol 

Thus we create our social laws ao that we bind ourselves into it... And than society follows 

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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

As a man with intrinsic cultural roots in two worlds: the European ( Western culture) and the so called Latin culture (also mostly Western for your info) with the exception of the barely indigenous people in the Americas nowadays. I can say that in today's Western world as time goes by the institution of marriage is slowly, but surely declining. Today's youth in average do not put as much emphasis in marriage as older generations. Especially men. They are slowly but surely understanding that marriage in average is stacked against them, hence the reluctance; while for females is mostly the Newfound freedom of not being any longer economically, and/or societally chained to a man. Also, take a look around the rest of the world societies where the only way for a woman to have a partner was marriage (or else), are also showing strong signs of unions without the sanctity of marriage. Of course, there're still extremely repressive cultures, mostly due to religious ultra-orthodoxy, where specially women are still in dire perils when it comes to justice. This is today's reality whether we like it or not.


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## ABHAY7681 (Jan 4, 2018)

Rob_1 said:


> I'm sorry, and I apologise to the OP, but I think that I have highjacked his tread. No more.


Come on... Its good someone is speaking my mind ) 



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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Don’t want a “closed” relationship?

Don’t have one, and don’t agree to one with no intent to honor the agreement.

Otherwise you’re no better than a feces-flinging lower primate, and no amount of hoop-jumping gets you out of that.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I can't think of any society that has survived very long with the kinds of changes we are living under today.


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

Rob_1 said:


> @TX-SC. You make me laugh. I am a trained, professional biologists and one of my scientific interest throughout most of my life has been cultural and physical anthropology. So I know a little of what I'm talking about. Just this, here is not the forum to make a dissertation. But so understand, that the concept of whether monogamy is a biological (genetic trait) as expressed in genes human's diploid alleles or whether it is a sociatal development the fact is that human cheats, just like most primates (we are primates, whether you like it or not). Most individuals will mate with as many as possible in a world were everyone was free to do as they please. This is inherent in all humans (of course, there's always exceptions to any rule), but you then would have to look up for the genetic/hormonal anomality (s). The fact that you see monogamy around the world (still not everywhere) is easily explained as one of cultural ddveopment, but not always the case. You need to take into the equation, the fact that whether you believe it or not love is a chemical reaction. Individuals whose pheromones are very genetically comparable are going to be attracted to each other instantly. We may suppress this attraction due to sociatal pressures but it is there. This is one of nature's way of ensuring that the genes that are being transmitted are the most genetically adapt to the individual of the species in the environment were they are going to survive. We might not longer need some of the mechanisms to ensure viability and diversity in today's world for us, but make not mistake, all the forces of nature are still working.
> 
> Monogamy is a problem for humans in the evolutionary sense. It does not make sense from an evolutionary point of view for males to be monogamous, when they do not have the burden of females with their gestational period and limited physical resources. The male can produce as many offsprings as possible with as many females as possible, while the female can't. This is part of the genetic make up of humans, males siring as many offsprings as they could. Check the human genomes, please.
> So what is it: biological, cultural, or sexual monogamy?
> ...


You may be a trained biologist, but I am a trained anthropologist. Yes, monogamy is a learned trait, just as sexual promiscuity may be biological in nature. But, we are humans, not chimpanzees and therefore we have the ability to adapt to changing conditions through cultural adaption more so than biological. The urge to mate with multiple partners does not need to override our ability to be monogamous. If your "interest" is cultural and physical anthropology then you know that monogamy is way more prevalent than non-monogamy. Marriage is pretty much a cultural universal. Many cultures do indeed allow daliance outside of marriage, and many people cheat, but to say that it goes against "human nature" is a joke.

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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

ABHAY7681 said:


> Sokillme - so one should stick to society and live as per what other wishes and never try to be the real himself.
> 
> 
> Such ideas usually kills passions and leads people to take professions that only respectable class follows..
> ...


One should do what they want. I have no doubt most will get married and try to live monogamously.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

I think many times this whole "people are not meant to be monogamist" argument is made by people who are not disciplined enough to be monogamist, but are not satisfied with the potential pool of choices they have because most people still strive for such a relationship. But even if I am wrong I agree with @2ntnuf I don't think polygamy or whatever you call this kind lifestyle OP is promoting is sustainable.

One could say that the Europe of today would be a good test case for this kind of lifestyle. After all monogamous marriage is losing it's appeal for many Europeans. For the white European hook up culture is pretty much the norm. Unfortunately the problem with that is they are also not having kids. Monogamous people usually from the other continents who have immigrated to those countries are reproducing a much greater rate. In a few generation the polygamous people will essential be breeded out of existence. 

I don't think this is a coincidence. I believe that monogamy and monogamous marriage is has in fact evolved because it is the best strategy to propagate the species and do it the most effectively. It's no coincidence that humanity has advanced more in the 2000 years when the push for this lifestyle has been the norm. In fact it has advanced more then it did in all the years before that. Monogamy is the most effective condition for humans to raise children, and healthy children mean a sustaining healthy growing society. I think we can see the results of not adhering to this philosophy in the breakdowns we have today. Just for that reason alone I believe it will continue to be the norm. 

The kind of hook up culture that is the norm in Europe is not really conducive for raising children at least not a lot of them. Since that is the case those who follow the monogamous path are always going to have an advantage when it comes to propagating their genes. Also polygamist's kids are also not going to do as well as a child that has the full pool of resources available from their father. When the resources are spread between different mothers that is a distinct disadvantage. This doesn't have to be monetary resources by the way. 

I wouldn't be surprised if those who promote this hookup culture will eventually stop breeding entirely as they will just be the first to adopt the switch to sexbots and virtual reality, when that becomes realistic. That activity requires no commitment at all which seems to be the end goal anyway. Those aspiring to return to the most base human instinct will find an easy avenue with those tools, with the added advantage that that avoids the danger of children.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

ABHAY7681 said:


> Yahh am justifying and have every reasons for it, we are designed for the same... And no one puts one hidden likings to weakness unless thats been socially ostracized....
> 
> Think of someone who is born in a typical islamic nation, where they condemn singing and dancing , and its unholy for them.. Someone have a deep passion for it and now he/she would consider singing /dancing as weakness just because society doesnt take that good.. I mean com on.. We design rules for ourselves....
> 
> Sent from my vivo V3 using Tapatalk


No we are not designed for the same. Someone who cheats is weak and selfish and has no moral values or integrity. They are liars and deceivers.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Ynot said:


> Actually you are as wrong about this as you with almost everything else you post:
> 
> In U.S., Proportion Married at Lowest Recorded Levels
> 
> ...


Firstly, I am not American, and secondly, America is not the only country in the world. The fact is that most people still get married even if its later than they used to.


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

ABHAY7681 said:


> Be a bit more elaborative. Thanks


That is what people are asking you to do. Your top posting was unclear - what are you trying to do here?


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> Firstly, I am not American, and secondly, America is not the only country in the world. The fact is that most people still get married even if its later than they used to.


I live in the US. So here in the US those are the facts. And even in the UK, you can see that fewer people are getting married. Again it is sad that you would prefer your fantasy to reality:

https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2010/feb/11/marriage-rates-uk-data

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/jul/08/record-number-england-wales-never-wed-marriage

But don't worry I am sure you will catch up.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Ynot said:


> I live in the US. So here in the US those are the facts. And even in the UK, you can see that fewer people are getting married. Again it is sad that you would prefer your fantasy to reality:
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2010/feb/11/marriage-rates-uk-data
> 
> ...


No I dont see that few are getting married. My children always going to their friends weddings. The only difference is that some of them will live together first. Marriage is still very popular.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> No I dont see that few are getting married. My children always going to their friends weddings. The only difference is that some of them will live together first. Marriage is still very popular.


Not few.

Few_er_.


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

Even if fewer are marrying, they are still forming monogamous, long-term relationships. They are just choosing to keep the state out of their relationship.

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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

TX-SC said:


> Even if fewer are marrying, they are still forming monogamous, long-term relationships. They are just choosing to keep the state out of their relationship.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


Yes IOW marriage is no longer the societal requirement it once was.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> No I dont see that few are getting married. My children always going to their friends weddings. The only difference is that some of them will live together first. Marriage is still very popular.


Um, apparently you lack comprehension skills. Look at the first link I gave you. The rates went from over 50 to around 20. I would say a 60% decrease is a pretty obvious sign that it is less popular, despite your anecdotal evidence. But again, don't let facts get in the way of your beliefs, after all denying reality is something you excel at!


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

Ynot said:


> Yes IOW marriage is no longer the societal requirement it once was.


I would agree with that overall, but it's not really my point. I was more addressing the fact that monogamy isn't in jeopardy, as even those not getting married are still staying in monogamous relationships. The poly crowd pushes open relationships these days quite often, but most people are not cut out for that type of relationship.

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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

ABHAY7681 said:


> Well its heading of the forum and it deals with the truth of facts called infidelity . Is it normal or forced.. Etc etc
> 
> Sent from my vivo V3 using Tapatalk


I think the confusion here is that you have created a thread but you are calling it a forum. The entire website is a forum.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

GusPolinski said:


> Not few.
> 
> Few_er_.


How many people do you know who are say 40 and above who have never been married? I cant hardly think of any. Even the people I know in their 30's who aren't yet married want to be.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

TX-SC said:


> I would agree with that overall, but it's not really my point. I was more addressing the fact that monogamy isn't in jeopardy, as even those not getting married are still staying in monogamous relationships. The poly crowd pushes open relationships these days quite often, but most people are not cut out for that type of relationship.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


I agree, its still a tiny minority who want to live that way.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

TX-SC said:


> I would agree with that overall, but it's not really my point. I was more addressing the fact that monogamy isn't in jeopardy, as even those not getting married are still staying in monogamous relationships. The poly crowd pushes open relationships these days quite often, but most people are not cut out for that type of relationship.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


I never said monogamy is in jeopardy, but marriage is. If you look back to the first post I made in this thread, I said that many people prefer serial monogamy. Statistics tell us this is true


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

Ynot said:


> I never said monogamy is in jeopardy, but marriage is. If you look back to the first post I made in this thread, I said that many people prefer serial monogamy. Statistics tell us this is true


Yes, but you were responding to MY post so I was clarifying what I was talking about.

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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

sokillme said:


> I think many times this whole "people are not meant to be monogamist" argument is made by people who are not disciplined enough to be monogamist, but are not satisfied with the potential pool of choices they have because most people still strive for such a relationship. But even if I am wrong I agree with @2ntnuf I don't think polygamy or whatever you call this kind lifestyle OP is promoting is sustainable.
> .


Well I think you are saying that from within the logical part of our brains, but at the mammal brain level I doubt that our prefrontal cortex has yet transcended our biological instincts to propagate the species in any way possible. I have read several books in that the key for evolution and survival of the fittest is to mix the gene pool as much as possible, thus creating a wide variety of immuno-efficiency against diseases and threats, and monogamy wouldn't appear to be the most effective strategy for that genetic diversion, I think. 
There are other factors also and morality and cognitive thinking are growing at an accelerating rate, so who knows eventually it might overtake our biological instinct.

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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

TX-SC said:


> I would agree with that overall, but it's not really my point. I was more addressing the fact that monogamy isn't in jeopardy, as even those not getting married are still staying in monogamous relationships. The poly crowd pushes open relationships these days quite often, but most people are not cut out for that type of relationship.





TX-SC said:


> I would agree with that overall, but it's not really my point. I was more addressing the fact that monogamy isn't in jeopardy, as even those not getting married are still staying in monogamous relationships. The poly crowd pushes open relationships these days quite often, but most people are not cut out for that type of relationship.


But it is on the rise, and rapidly. Alt/open relationships comprise as much as 10% of the over-30 population of many larger cities.

This was something I could never imagine for myself. But I can see it, actually. It is about mindset.

A HUGE factor in how we view life is whether we view life with a scarcity mentality or an abundance mentality. People who believe money is hard to come by become hoarders. Those who view our world as full of money for those who think and act with care, live more sparse lives, knowing they can pull things into their lives as needed.

I find with myself that, since women are not drawn to me, and it feels like work to gain their attention, I have a sparsity mentality with women. Thus, my mindset is that "this one must be a keeper"...because I don't want to go without again.

However...I am evolving. My involvement in music the past few years has me in contact with a LOT more women than previous for me, and they more or less MUST see me frequently at practices and so on. So, they "get over" my non-existent visual impact and start to get to know my character. My present environment includes a plenitude of women who've never known a man as gentle and capable of emotional intimacy as me. And, with all of us being over 40 and kids are either never-to-be or been-there-done-that. Plus, if you're over 40, you're expected to have your financial **** together, so nobody is doing any gold-digging any more. The concept of living my life happily in my own place, and having more than one female friend who appreciates having her physical desires satisfied makes perfect sense to me. I know many people, of both genders, who live this way.

The Western Culture's worshipping of "until death do you part" is exactly why the divorce rate is so high. WAY too much pressure is put on it. Asian cultures also marry for life, but it's not a part of their daily conversation...it just is - it's there, in the background. And their divorce rate is much lower. Marriage is seen as something you do, not something that engenders a massive party, but simply a normal coupling of two adults, no more significant than getting a college degree or a new job.

In a culture that destroys marriage by putting too much drama it in, non-standard couplings, including multiple, seem to make more sense. Also, as more people in the West realize this is the most abundant time there's ever been, more people are acclimating to the idea of multiple partners - since partners are not so hard to come by as they used to be.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

CantBelieveThis said:


> Well I think you are saying that from within the logical part of our brains, but at the mammal brain level I doubt that our prefrontal cortex has yet transcended our biological instincts to propagate the species in any way possible. I have read several books in that the key for evolution and survival of the fittest is to mix the gene pool as much as possible, thus creating a wide variety of immuno-efficiency against diseases and threats, and monogamy wouldn't appear to be the most effective strategy for that genetic diversion, I think.
> There are other factors also and morality and cognitive thinking are growing at an accelerating rate, so who knows eventually it might overtake our biological instinct.
> 
> Sent from my BTV-W09 using Tapatalk


I personally think we are past the tipping point and our intellect has completely over taken our biological instinct as far as development of the species. Soon we will be combining with machines and enhancing ourselves with technology. There will be genetic enhancement and artificial wombs as well. I think biological instinct is irrelevant.

I think the future of marriage and reproduction will eventually move more towards the Eastern model in the sense that people will choose to marry as an exchange of genes.


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

@DustyDog

I don't necessarily disagree with your assessment and really only time will tell where we go from here. Also, I'm not sure if your 10 percent statistic is something from a study or just a "feeling", but if we reverse that, we can assume that a full 90 percent of the population is likely monogamous. That's a fairly large percentage. Plus, as you stated, this number really only applies to metropolitan areas. Rural areas and southern states would be less likely to be anything other than monogamous. Throw in the Christians and Muslims and I don't see the greater population moving away from monogamy anytime soon.

As for the percentage growing, that could be. However, a percentage of the population has historically been non-monogamous (swinging, etc.), so I would hesitate to say it's a 10 percent growth even within metropolitan areas.

The kids and teens I see are still talking about finding the right partner and getting married, but again, this is Texas so YMMV.

As for the celebrities b ration of marriage... Yes, it's way overdone and probably does add undue stress on a relationship.

Overall, I stand by my posts that monogamy is not dying or in any great jeopardy.

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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

DustyDog said:


> A HUGE factor in how we view life is whether we view life with a scarcity mentality or an abundance mentality. People who believe money is hard to come by become hoarders. Those who view our world as full of money for those who think and act with care, live more sparse lives, knowing they can pull things into their lives as needed.


Yes! It is this idea of scarcity which we as a society is moving away from that I feel is driving us away from marriage and pushing divorce rates among older couples. We (baby boomers) were the first generation post world war and depression. We have never really suffered and the world just keeps providing more (think in terms of technology, communications, transportation and in general opportunities). We do not know scarcity. We are living longer. We are living longer healthier as well. We have more choices and options in our 50's and 60's and even 70's than previous generations have ever had. 
Marriage truly is a throwback to scarcity thinking in which the limited resources both sexes brought to the table created the necessity of marriage. That is no longer the case, which is why I see society moving away from scarcity thinking and more towards abundance thinking.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

@TX-SC said: "...know that monogamy is way more prevalent than non-monogamy. Marriage is pretty much a cultural universal."


TX: for a trained anthropologist, you do not seem to get what I'm saying. I'm talking potatoes, you're talking potatos.

Let me explain: I've been talking Nature, you've been talking cultural evolution. The concept of one have nothing to do with the concept of the other.

The human beast is not monogamous by NATURE. The social man demands monogamy by right of mating. As you said in most of societies monogamy is the norm. YOU are correct in this respect. As you should know, as man transitioned from the life of hunter-gatherer to that of the life of agriculturalist and had to settle, this gave rise to wealth, and subsequently to the problem of transmission of the wealth to the right sanguineous heirs, here the concept of monogamy starts to appears in the records. 

Why this shift, simple: the evolution of sexuality in men and women can be summarize as follow: intrasexual competition has always been more intense among males than among females. In preliterate societies competition over women was the most prevalent cause of violence between males. Males always been incline toward polyginy, while females depending on circumstances, to this day (to certain extent) could be happy in polygynous, monogamous, or polyandrous marriages. 

As we can see humans have a great plasticity and potential for variability in sexual behaviour. This begs to say that this shows strong biological, genetic evolutionary basis to these apparent differences between the sexes, and they are basis for the social/cultural aspects of sexuality. This plasticity is what causes men to react to the conundrum of making sure they are the biological father because from an evolutionary point of view the loser is the male that provides for another male's progeny, becoming an evolutionary dead end. This my friend is a no-no at the gene level. Genes are selfish, they want to be transmitted, and if possible only them should be transmitted (thanks God for genetic variation/mutation).

So, here we are arguing about potatoes vs potatos. Personally I 'm a strict adherent to monogamy and demand it. I'm selfish too. I want to make sure that the progeny I'm raising are carrying my genes, and not one else's. Particularly, I do understand those guys that are cuckolds or that share their women: to me they are nothing but evolutionary dead ends. Genetic anormalities manifested through social conditioning, but the genetic factor is there (self-elimination/genetic suicide). Too bad that today's science is preventing people that shouldn't breed to breed. That's life today.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Rob_1 said:


> @TX-SC said: "...know that monogamy is way more prevalent than non-monogamy. Marriage is pretty much a cultural universal."
> 
> 
> TX: for a trained anthropologist, you do not seem to get what I'm saying. I'm talking potatoes, you're talking potatos.
> ...


I question if this is true. Would you say the same thing about farming? Would you say the human beast (which is stupid way to describe us as it debases what we are, however it's also convenient as if you call a human a beast then you don't have to assign him any responsibility for his actions. You folks always seem to do this though. People can't help but **** around because we are all just beast. Wouldn't say that about stealing though, or violence, or any other unpleasantness that beast do.) Anyway would you say the human beast is not agricultural? I wouldn't. I would say in the past it wasn't but it evolved to be. In the same way I would say that it has also evolved to be monogamous.

Again so what if what you say is true. The human beast is violent, that is not an excuse to be violent.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

sokillme said:


> Again so what if what you say is true. The human beast is violent, that is not an excuse to be violent.


Which is one of the reasons for monogamy. But this is a scarcity thought and not an abundant thought. We are conditioned by society to think in terms of scarcity because for most of out history it has been this way. But we are entering a new phase of existence and abundance will become the new way of thinking. We have never enjoyed such abundance at any other point in our existence.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Ynot said:


> Which is one of the reasons for monogamy. But this is a scarcity thought and not an abundant thought. We are conditioned by society to think in terms of scarcity because for most of out history it has been this way. But we are entering a new phase of existence and abundance will become the new way of thinking. We have never enjoyed such abundance at any other point in our existence.


We are more disconnected then ever. We talk to each other through machines. Eventually we will all be having sex with robots. Most of us will be making the basic minimum to keep us from revolting. Boy are you going to be disappointed.


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

Rob_1 said:


> @TX-SC said: "...know that monogamy is way more prevalent than non-monogamy. Marriage is pretty much a cultural universal."
> 
> 
> TX: for a trained anthropologist, you do not seem to get what I'm saying. I'm talking potatoes, you're talking potatos.
> ...


The problem with your hypothesis is that marriage predates agriculture and pasturalism by thousands of years. Hunters and gatherers, for whom land ownership is not a concern, practice marriage. I haven't looked into this recently, but it seems I remember studying that marriage likely predates the migration out of Africa. 

Marriage is pretty much a cultural universal. All cultures have some form of marriage, and most are monogamous in nature. The notion of a "promiscuous herd" within other primate groups simply doesn't work for humans. Why is that? Why not have the biggest, baddest alpha male impregnate all the females and beat the crap out of any challengers? Simply put, it's a cultural adaption that has been around for likely hundreds of thousands of years. 

So, if it is indeed a cultural adaption practiced for thousands of years, why is it so difficult to identify it as "human nature?" Yes, it may go against some biological needs, but I know it's MY nature to be monogamous. Jealousy and a protective inclination would not allow me to let my spouse go have sex with other males. That's my nature. Some may argue that's a learned behavior. That gets more into psychology and personality than I want to go, but don't underestimate the role of culture when discussing human nature.

I do agree though that we are coming at this from two different angles and probably could agree on much of this in person.

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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

CantBelieveThis said:


> Well I think you are saying that from within the logical part of our brains, but at the mammal brain level I doubt that our prefrontal cortex has yet transcended our biological instincts to propagate the species in any way possible. I have read several books in that the key for evolution and survival of the fittest is to mix the gene pool as much as possible, thus creating a wide variety of immuno-efficiency against diseases and threats, and monogamy wouldn't appear to be the most effective strategy for that genetic diversion, I think.
> There are other factors also and morality and cognitive thinking are growing at an accelerating rate, so who knows eventually it might overtake our biological instinct.
> 
> Sent from my BTV-W09 using Tapatalk


If I understand what you are saying here, yes, that's what I was saying. We have that biological instinct from prehistory and it's never left. However, moral standards and societal norms in many western cultures seem to have thought monogamy was best. 

There is also a drive, in my opinion, to have the stability that monogamy provides, which I do believe is inherent to our biology. If it isn't, it sure feels like it to me. We want and need to be cared about. One person can do that better than many. 

However, due to the biological drives to spread genes and mate with great physical specimens of the opposite sex, heterosexuals will have a drive to mate and procreate with more than one human. It's only what we have experienced in life concerning monogamy during our formative years that seems to allow for or reject promiscuity or infidelity. 

I do think those lessons learned in our formative years can be overridden by later in life education, beliefs, trauma, the use of illicit drugs, or alcohol. I don't think we lose monogamous life lightly. I think it becomes easier as we continue living a promiscuous or unfaithful life.


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## ABHAY7681 (Jan 4, 2018)

DustyDog said:


> That is what people are asking you to do. Your top posting was unclear - what are you trying to do here?


I guess u can sense clarity after reading posts 

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## ABHAY7681 (Jan 4, 2018)

DustyDog said:


> I think the confusion here is that you have created a thread but you are calling it a forum. The entire website is a forum.


Sorry for the same 

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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

ABHAY7681 said:


> I guess u can sense clarity after reading posts
> 
> Sent from my vivo V3 using Tapatalk


 If you aren't prepared to be faithful then dont get married or have a relationship. Its simple.


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