# You have to learn see her differently



## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Those were the words from my therapist. Not that she had changed or that I had to change, just that I had to recognize her if I was going to work through this. Let go of the idealized notion. I didn't like it and didn't want to. But now I do see her differently and not better. I married her in large part because I did not think she had that in her. My guess is that she did not know either. Bygones. I would like to stay married and expect that we will at least for some time but everything is different. I wouldn't marry her again.


----------



## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

You didn't think she had what in her? 

Are the anger issues still there?


----------



## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Yes and we have all mostly acclimated. It's what you do, right? You cope.


----------



## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

Harken did your therapist say that you in front of her?
did you mention that to her? 

here is my thought while your expected to look at her differently let's turn around the question....how is she suppose to look at you? have her answer her that. Why you ask....because many cheaters, want others to understand they can change, they are different, and others should accept them for that change....but and here is the interesting aspect, i want you to stay the same, i don't want you to change because this marriage is only good for one person to change not both, which equals to i can be bad but you must be good...think about that


----------



## allwillbewell (Dec 13, 2012)

"Learn to see them differently." Yes very true on more than one level:

Loss of trust leads to removing the WS from the pedestal of idealizing them..realizing that they had it in them to inflict the greatest emotional pain any one can inflict upon another.

And if you choose to R, you must begin to see them as more than a liar and a cheater...you must begin to remember and see their good qualities and how they are trying to redeem themselves.

Of course this assumes they are remorseful and dedicated to owning what they did and resolved to dig deep within their own psyches to discover what is within them that allowed for such destructive and selfish behavior. Most WWs are not capable of this level of self examination leaving the BS to cope with the consequenses alone and in pain.

My FWH and I are attempting to rebuild and regain what we lost but deep down in my heart, I know that if I had known what he was capable of and DID proceed to do over the course of our 35 year marriage, I would not have married him either. The pain has so far out -weighed the joy...perhaps I will feel differently in 20 years if all goes well...


----------



## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

This was individual counseling and even before I understood that my wife was engaged in an affair. This therapist was very good on the relational side of things. And I think was asking if I would open to a broader perspective on myself as well. FWIW, she saw me as impenetrable and I am an open book.


----------



## kenmoore14217 (Apr 8, 2010)

Harken Banks said:


> Yes and we have all mostly acclimated. It's what you do, right? You cope.


No, it is not what you do. You divorce.


----------



## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

allwillbewell said:


> "Learn to see them differently." Yes very true on more than one level:
> 
> Loss of trust leads to removing the WS from the pedestal of idealizing them..realizing that they had it in them to inflict the greatest emotional pain any one can inflict upon another.
> 
> ...


I wish you the very best. It's not easy, is it? I don't think about it all the time any more or even that often, but when I do I want to grab myself by the shoulders for a good shake.


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

kenmoore14217 said:


> No, it is not what you do. You divorce.


Coping might include many things, separation, staying together, divorce.


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Harken was it an EA or a PA? I never followed up.

If I recall your fWW was one of the most unremorseful, conceited posters we ever had come through here.


----------



## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> Harken was it an EA or a PA? I never followed up.


EA, I believe. But that is a funny term as it connotes something platonic and clean. Full on with cyber sex, fantasies acted out alone and shared with each other, masturbation and other techniques and probably much worse than I know.


----------



## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Oh. Hey Bandit. As usual I responded without reading the full message. Totally missed the second sentence. I would not say she is conceited. I would say she is not. But she never did much of anything other than talk about her own hurt, mostly I think for the same reason horses are unaware of anything beyond their blinders.


----------



## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

And if it is any encouragement to the BS community, we had 2 days of the divorce process in which, upon learning we were getting divorced, I had 2 nights of carefree fun and was looking forward to an endless string of flings before my wife lost her sh*t and said what are you doing, to which the obvious response was we are getting divorced and what I do is none of your business as what you do is none of mine. Turns out she did not like that I was out with other women. Weird. But still enticing and intriquing. What a can of worms.


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Harken Banks said:


> And if it is any encouragement to the BS community, we had 2 days of the divorce process in which, upon learning we were getting divorced, I had 2 nights of carefree fun and was looking forward to an endless string of flings before my wife lost her sh*t and said what are you doing, to which the obvious response was we are getting divorced and what I do is none of your business as what you do is none of mine. Turns out she did not like that I was out with other women. Weird. But still enticing and intriquing. What a can of worms.


:rofl: Awesome!!! :rofl:


----------



## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Harken Banks said:


> And if it is any encouragement to the BS community, we had 2 days of the divorce process in which, upon learning we were getting divorced, I had 2 nights of carefree fun and was looking forward to an endless string of flings before my wife lost her sh*t and said what are you doing, to which the obvious response was we are getting divorced and what I do is none of your business as what you do is none of mine. Turns out she did not like that I was out with other women. Weird. But still enticing and intriquing. What a can of worms.


Guess that meant she still cares, on some level.

From the sounds of it, not much, if anything, has changed since I followed your story at least a year ago. 

Still married, not happily but working on it, still trying to get past what she's done, her still only focusing on herself as victim.

Am I right, or am I missing something.


----------



## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Not expecting them to cheat - Is that what we're calling a pedestal these days?

Harken, what do you mean a broader perspective of yourself?


----------



## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Not expecting them to cheat - Is that what we're calling a pedestal these days?
> 
> Harken, what do you mean a broader perspective of yourself?


Oh, I think not being naive and blindsided. Shedding the view I would like to have had.


----------



## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Gabriel said:


> Guess that meant she still cares, on some level.
> 
> From the sounds of it, not much, if anything, has changed since I followed your story at least a year ago.
> 
> ...


Yes, yes, yes maybe or not, and yes, then no.


----------



## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Even so, the hall pass I had for only two days. It was like before I got married.


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Why on earth would you take her back after tasting that freedom???


----------



## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Why on earth would you take her back after tasting that freedom???


----------



## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Why on earth would you take her back after tasting that freedom???


My options are pretty good. Yep. Probably shockingly so. I watch the clock a bit and think about those things. But then time seems to be on my side and she is my wife and the mother of my children.


----------



## Calibre1212 (Aug 11, 2014)

Stop suffering...Live your life....Create new terms...I tried that before I walked away...I suggested an open marriage...LOL! (You don't even want to hear my terms or the details; I was only bs..ing to see the reaction). But boy, was that a nice little fantasy...Then I said to hell with all of it...I can do bad all by myself...Damn it!

Oh??? She was pissed when you flipped the script? Poor thing.


----------



## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Harken Banks said:


> Oh, I think not being naive and blindsided. Shedding the view I would like to have had.


There's no getting around that, I suppose.

What was the most important thing she said or did or you observed which made you think she's still the one for you?


----------



## barbados (Aug 30, 2012)

Gabriel said:


> Guess that meant she still cares, on some level.
> 
> .


Or it meant that she realized that her Plan B had options and didn't need her. The control had shifted and she didn't like it. 

Sucks when the cake eater gets their cake taken away.


----------



## Calibre1212 (Aug 11, 2014)

This therapist...Interesting...By now the therapist should have been able to get to the truth of whether it was an EA only or a PA too. The truth is we get enticed into staying in the broken marriage because the PA part is difficult to confirm. But, we all know how the story goes from the teenage years of when boy meets girl etc. So deep in our hearts we know an EA is just a PA waiting to happen....Someone on here originally quoted that back in 2012. 

So hypothetically, if you had knowledge that it was a definitely a PA would you still be married to her?


----------



## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Harken Banks said:


> And if it is any encouragement to the BS community, we had 2 days of the divorce process in which, upon learning we were getting divorced, I had 2 nights of carefree fun and was looking forward to an endless string of flings before my wife lost her sh*t and said what are you doing, to which the obvious response was we are getting divorced and what I do is none of your business as what you do is none of mine. Turns out she did not like that I was out with other women. Weird. But still enticing and intriquing. What a can of worms.


That was my stbxww. As soon as she found out *I* was getting some strange, she lost it. How could I do this to her??

Lol. I didn't see through it at the time. Fortunately, some time opened my eyes.


----------



## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

barbados said:


> Or it meant that she realized that her Plan B had options and didn't need her. The control had shifted and she didn't like it.
> 
> Sucks when the cake eater gets their cake taken away.


Maybe. It was a strange time. I am not a plan b kind of guy and her whatever it was seemed to more about her wanting to express something than anything else. My options are good.


----------



## X-B (Jul 25, 2013)

I didn't have to learn to see her differently. I immediately saw her in a different light. Before when she smiled at me it would warm my heart and the way she greeted me when I came home made me want to rish home after a long or hard day at work. Now when I see her it is no big deal and I have caught myself flipping her the bird when she has her back turned to me. I stay late at the shop so I have to spend less time with her. I have a date set and then I am just going to have her served at work in front of everybody and I will disappear for the weekend.


----------



## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

staystrong said:


> There's no getting around that, I suppose.
> 
> What was the most important thing she said or did or you observed which made you think she's still the one for you?


The idea of "the one" went by the boards. She is my wife. We have close to 15 years of shared experience and 4 children together. If this marriage ends, it won't be catastrophic like I once thought. Other things being equal, I would spend the out years with her watching our children grow and start families of their own.


----------



## Suspecting2014 (Jun 11, 2014)

X-Betaman said:


> I didn't have to learn to see her differently. I immediately saw her in a different light. Before when she smiled at me it would warm my heart and the way she greeted me when I came home made me want to rish home after a long or hard day at work. Now when I see her it is no big deal and I have caught myself flipping her the bird when she has her back turned to me. I stay late at the shop so I have to spend less time with her. I have a date set and then I am just going to have her served at work in front of everybody and I will disappear for the weekend.


From what I read on your thread, I thought you would wait to file D 2 years.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Harken, I thought your wife was on here at least once, a couple of years ago explaining that you had started an inappropriate (at the very least) relationship with an ex gf.

Is any of the above correct?


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Nah, it means she felt entitled. He'd somehow wronged her and he deserved to suffer while she deserved to create some new memories for the tough times in the marriage when she had to keep her mouth shut for peace in the marriage. She likely didn't think he'd know. She was doing it for him. Really, no sh*t.


----------



## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Is your wife in counseling? Is she working on anger management?


----------



## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> Harken, I thought your wife was on here at least once, a couple of years ago explaining that you had started an inappropriate (at the very least) relationship with an ex gf.
> 
> Is any of the above correct?


She has a fixation on this former girlfriend. Earlier years she had focused on other former girlfriends and I had not talked to or given all that much thought to them since I met my wife. But she was aware of some of them and occasionally would make an odd comment. I wasn't facebook or corresponding friends with any of them, though I had maintained some contact but not much with some of them prior to meeting my wife. My wife, to be quite clear on this issue is and has been and to this day is facebook and corresponding friends with some of her former boyfriends and many of her closest friends are men she knew in college or since and has maintained close relationships with. it never bothered me so I had never commented. This one former girlfriend my wife mentioned as being at the start of our problems with infidelity was one of my closest friends growing from around age 14 on. We went through a lot together, as you do with the good friends you go through those years with. She is also good friends with my sister and brother and pretty much my 20 or 30 closest friends I am still in touch with from where I grew up. Sensitive to my wife's sensitivities I had not talked to her since the week I met my wife even though I considered her to be a close friend and good person and will continue to do so. Starting about 2.5 or so years ago, I was in facebook correspondence with her. Not daily, just a message every couple of weeks or so. None of it was hidden and my wife has read it all as I guess I expected she would but it didn't really concern me. I liked catching up. I still consider her a close friend and expect that I will for the rest of my life. She wrote some things about regrets in some of the facebook messages that ran right up to the line and she knew it and apologized and I did not engage other than to point out she had everything going for her and to look forward to. And she does. Her family is here and she still owns a place here and comes back to town probably a couple of times a year. I met her for what was supposed to be a quick drink and to say hi and ended up buying her lunch and talking and talking for several hours about old friends and teachers and where they were now and what had happened in the 10 years I was away from town. I didn't tell my wife I was going to meet her and that was very wrong.


----------



## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Edit: But I did tell her when I walked in the door very late from the errands I was running and she asked where I had been. I did not hide any aspect.


----------



## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

I saw my WW as the prize every man looks for in a woman. In my eyes she is beautiful in every aspect of a woman, she had it all. I was head over heels in love with her months before we began dating. All of my friends were envious of me when I married her. A month and a half ago my sister commented that she was jealous of my marriage and thought it was perfect! Now that I am in R after her six month affair I see her differently. My marriage has lost it's innocence, value, and integrity. Now I feel the prize I won is tainted. I held our vows to the highest regard. WW is still beautiful to me but I see her in a different light now. I hate what has happened and hope that one day I see her in a better light again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

drifting on said:


> I saw my WW as the prize every man looks for in a woman. In my eyes she is beautiful in every aspect of a woman, she had it all. I was head over heels in love with her months before we began dating. All of my friends were envious of me when I married her. A month and a half ago my sister commented that she was jealous of my marriage and thought it was perfect! Now that I am in R after her six month affair I see her differently. My marriage has lost it's innocence, value, and integrity. Now I feel the prize I won is tainted. I held our vows to the highest regard. WW is still beautiful to me but I see her in a different light now. I hate what has happened and hope that one day I see her in a better light again.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No doubt. The bloom is off the rose. I think my therapist recognized that I was in severe denial and disconnect. I did not know which way was up. I was a frigging mess. That is what this stuff does. Now looking back it is all kind of tedious. I had to get to this place.


----------



## allwillbewell (Dec 13, 2012)

3 years after Dday and 2 years FR, I find myself in a very confusing state. I realize I spent 3 years working hard to win him back, fight off the persistant OW and try to figure out why/how he could do this to me. Alot of self analysis and working on myself. 

Now that I feel more secure and we seem to have regained what we lost so long ago, or more correctly achieved a stage in our marriage where we are able better to communicate with honesty, work out conflicts and compromise better, I am nagged by feelings of anger that he choose to solve HIS needs by resorting to infidelity. If we can come to a peaceful, mature state now, we could have done so before the As. I live with that knowledge with resentment and I try to fight off the feelings of injustice. I look at myself and wonder did I give up too much of my self esteem in order to save the marriage? Is what I sacrificed worth the price? These doubts remain with me and I find it difficult to feel truly happy in the moment. You can never unknow what you know but I have yet to find that place where I don 't care about what he did...every memory still brings pain not neutrality.


----------



## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

So, for color, I last talked to exgf about 2 months ago. And it was nice. She is an old friend and has been very deferential to the situation even as I never know what that is. She was at the time going through a bit of transition with her then current boyfriend, an international lawyer/consultant from Brazil transplanted to SoCal in connection with his marriage to Ms. Universe from not too many years back and they have 2 kids in shared custody in California. Apparently this guy may be a bit of jerk but it may not be his fault. Also, his ex seems to be a piece of work and Alan Thicke may be somewhere in the mix. Kid you not, and I am not even sure who Alan Thicke is but I think his son did some weird stuff with that Miley Cyrus disaster on TV. Also, exgf whom I look upon mostly as a younger sister knocks Ms Universe out of the box. But I am just a humble country lawyer from Maine.


----------



## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

allwillbewell said:


> 3 years after Dday and 2 years FR, I find myself in a very confusing state. I realize I spent 3 years working hard to win him back, fight off the persistant OW and try to figure out why/how he could do this to me. Alot of self analysis and working on myself.
> 
> Now that I feel more secure and we seem to have regained what we lost so long ago, or more correctly achieved a stage in our marriage where we are able better to communicate with honesty, work out conflicts and compromise better, I am nagged by feelings of anger that he choose to solve HIS needs by resorting to infidelity. If we can come to a peaceful, mature state now, we could have done so before the As. I live with that knowledge with resentment and I try to fight off the feelings of injustice. I look at myself and wonder did I give up too much of my self esteem in order to save the marriage? Is what I sacrificed worth the price? These doubts remain with me and I find it difficult to feel truly happy in the moment. You can never unknow what you know but I have yet to find that place where I don 't care about what he did...every memory still brings pain not neutrality.


Hang in there Allwillbewell. It is a sh*t sandwich you have been served. Every marriage is different, but I think most of us had never conceived of this. Damn sure I had not. For me, time and perspective have made the difference. It takes a long time to recover. Longer for some than others. I still can't make sense of it and may not ever. But that is not on me. Nor is it on you.


----------



## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

> But then time seems to be on my side and she is my wife and the mother of my children.


So tell the truth HB.

Do you still love your wife?

Because the sentence above is just an excuse. For you.


----------



## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

happyman64 said:


> So tell the truth HB.
> 
> Do you still love your wife?
> 
> Because the sentence above is just an excuse. For you.


Yes. Without condition.


----------



## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

It's not what it was. I see her much differently. I am at ease with letting her go. Apparently I may not have been what she wanted. Most certainly she has not been that for me. I think I have appreciated difficulty of human interaction and embrace relationships in all forms. Except the frying pan over the head every day.


----------



## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Well you might be ok letting her go but obviously she is not ok with you going.

So instead of just hanging out for a few "married" years while the kids get of age why not be pro active and do something positive.

You two need to be locked in a room with your MC and be honest.

And then make decisions about the future of your marriage as well as relationship.

Answer this:

Does your wife love you?


----------



## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

happyman64 said:


> Well you might be ok letting her go but obviously she is not ok with you going.
> 
> So instead of just hanging out for a few "married" years while the kids get of age why not be pro active and do something positive.
> 
> ...


I don't know. That used to be more important to me than it is now. I am not trying to be coy about this. It's a question I hadn't asked myself in a long time. I just considered it now as you asked and the answer doesn't matter to me very much at the moment.


----------



## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

So I guess I think that means no.


----------



## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

Your situation is just so sad. I'm so sorry Harken.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Thanks, Pidge. I am less unhappy now than I have been in a long time. Things are quite good, I think.


----------



## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

drifting on said:


> I saw my WW as the prize every man looks for in a woman. In my eyes she is beautiful in every aspect of a woman, she had it all. I was head over heels in love with her months before we began dating. All of my friends were envious of me when I married her. A month and a half ago my sister commented that she was jealous of my marriage and thought it was perfect! Now that I am in R after her six month affair I see her differently. My marriage has lost it's innocence, value, and integrity. Now I feel the prize I won is tainted. I held our vows to the highest regard. WW is still beautiful to me but I see her in a different light now. I hate what has happened and hope that one day I see her in a better light again.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What you had was a reptilian huntress. She may move and have charms that draw you in, her voice alluring and her eyes and change of pace. It's all by design to draw you in and establish control around you.


----------



## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

X-Betaman said:


> I didn't have to learn to see her differently. I immediately saw her in a different light. Before when she smiled at me it would warm my heart and the way she greeted me when I came home made me want to rish home after a long or hard day at work. Now when I see her it is no big deal and I have caught myself flipping her the bird when she has her back turned to me. I stay late at the shop so I have to spend less time with her. I have a date set and then I am just going to have her served at work in front of everybody and I will disappear for the weekend.


Get 1/2 the pension money X Man

2 years of hell knowing you will be serving it cold will put a smile on your face every morning

end T/J

55


----------



## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Treyvion

Funny you say that as my IC said almost the exact same thing. However when I told him more about her he reversed his position. We are to go more in depth on this in future sessions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_

Edit, I spelled Treyvion wrong.


----------



## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Well, anyway. I did not intend for this thread to be about me, interesting as I am. But a point in process. The one where you think back as you have constantly over time about the advice you were given and things that were said before and at the time you just didn't have the tools to use any of it and then after a lot of time and lateral drift it falls into place and made sense all along. My gosh, I spent so much time obsessing over this stuff and trying to make sense of it and I haven't really cared too much about the particulars in maybe a year or so now. Not like I did trying to put everything together and figure it out. Sure, now and then when I think about it I get pissed off. But that is pretty infrequent. Life is short, the world is big. This is what you get.


----------



## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Harken Banks said:


> EA, I believe. But that is a funny term as it connotes something platonic and clean. Full on with cyber sex, fantasies acted out alone and shared with each other, masturbation and other techniques and probably much worse than I know.


I don't remember this part of the story. Or am I mixing them up ? Did you find this out later ?


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

You and Racer are in a similar situation in some respects. His wife is very messed up compared with yours, but the dynamic is similar. He could put up with so much if she just loved him. She also concentrates on her pain. His pain is an inconvenience to her.

He is very bright guy but he now is questioning his ability to keep on in spite of his desire to preserve his family. He thought he could hang tough but he realized that the unfulfilling state of his marriage/reconciliation amounts to a state of depression. He doesn't want to languish in it any longer. It's a big decision to divorce.

Like Racer, you are articulate. You don't hide from yourself, even if you have blind spots. Everyone does.

Your wife is possessive of you, but it doesn't feel like love. That is sad. I imagine you skiing with your kids. Coaching on the mountain. You look good in your gear. Those little racers. You watch them persevere. The ski boots go clunk, clunk in the cafe. You drink hot chocolate or coffee with the parents. You're a somebody to them. You are involved in their lives. What the coach thinks matters.

Then you go home and your wife probably doesn't care about how the skiing is going. Your lives are connected through your children but you are unappreciated. She feels that you got the prize in her, but you are just okay, not as exciting as she imagined.

If you are prepared to sacrifice your happiness today to see your kids reach college age, then you have set the course. Once you pass the last gate, don't you think your marriage will be in big trouble?

Happyman is right. Bring this up in MC. What does she want? How does she see your marriage? For you to put on a good face for a decade and then find that your resentment is a reservoir, that would be a betrayal of both you and her.

If you were to put divorce on the table, is there some chance that your wife would go from possessive to passionate? If so, could it be maintained?


----------



## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

HB, did you ever have HB with your wife?


----------



## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Did you read mmslp and was it any help?


----------



## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

LongWalk said:


> You and Racer are in a similar situation in some respects. His wife is very messed up compared with yours, but the dynamic is similar. He could put up with so much if she just loved him. She also concentrates on her pain. His pain is an inconvenience to her.
> 
> He is very bright guy but he now is questioning his ability to keep on in spite of his desire to preserve his family. He thought he could hang tough but he realized that the unfulfilling state of his marriage/reconciliation amounts to a state of depression. He doesn't want to languish in it any longer. It's a big decision to divorce.
> 
> ...


I think Racer and I have some similarities. I am flattered by the comparison. I think he is more perceptive and aware than I am. I just kind of ricochet through life bouncing off things and sorting out what they are best I can by the angle of redirection. But I think we are both pretty realistic about our marriages, doing the practical, and having some fun along the way.


----------



## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

staystrong said:


> HB, did you ever have HB with your wife?


I do not understand the question. 




warlock07 said:


> I don't remember this part of the story. Or am I mixing them up ? Did you find this out later ?


Hah! I thought you were one of the only ones who followed what was going on.



Chaparral said:


> Did you read mmslp and was it any help?


I started, but didn't follow through. I did read no more Mr. Nice Guy, and I thought that was useful, for perspective. Maybe I'll go back to MMSLP at some point. I guess I don't really want to strategize my relationships all that much. Maybe not at all.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Racer is wavering now. His philosophical strength cannot support the weight.

He now says that his wife is not bright enough to see her responsibilities and he is simply tired of her.

HB = hysterical bonding = hot glue sex


----------



## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

LongWalk said:


> Racer is wavering now. His philosophical strength cannot support the weight.
> 
> He now says that his wife is not bright enough to see her responsibilities and he is simply tired of her.


Well, he'll receive no judgment from me. I think he was mostly very kind in what he wrote about his wife, but it seems she may be a mess. And he seemed to step back and take the role of amused bystander a bit, which is not at all unhealthy and involves a lot of putting the hurt in a box. What else can you do?



LongWalk said:


> HB = hysterical bonding = hot glue sex


Oh. You know, maybe. We probably had some of that when I was asking WTF was going on and not yet wrapping my head around. When I found out I did not want her near me and it was a while before we were intimate again and when we were it was maybe the most emotionally difficult and confusing thing I have been through. She cried and I was scared. She took the lead as always so you understand the dynamic and I was on my back kind of shaking and wanting to roll to my side and curl up. I have had a lot of meaningless (to me) hook ups and they were once pretty common occurrences, so it's not like I have some sacred notion of sex that was hanging me up. But that was upsetting and hard. Since she has gone on a few binges and I have never said no. If we had hysterical bonding I think it was some of the freaky stuff we did in the period she was continuing her affair and I was saying WTF.


----------



## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

It's funny that as I read back over what I have written here (I do that usually but not always after a post) I feel bad, I feel hurt, and a lot of concern for the guy I am writing about but I am not that guy anymore. Remembering which doesn't happen much outside of this forum brings a nostalgic twinge cause I remember that guy and I liked him. But I am not that guy.


----------



## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

> Hah! I thought you were one of the only ones who followed what was going on.


I thought it was just inappropriate talk between this guy and your wife. Ok, I think I remember more now. It was inappropriate talk when they were at the same hotel. But things escalated when she returned back.

More accurate now ?


----------



## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Harken Banks said:


> Thanks, Pidge. I am less unhappy now than I have been in a long time. Things are quite good, I think.


Double negative do convey a different meaning


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

> Oh. You know, maybe. We probably had some of that when I was asking WTF was going on and not yet wrapping my head around. When I found out I did not want her near me and it was a while before we were intimate again and when we were it was maybe the most *emotionally difficult and confusing* thing I have been through. *She cried and I was scared.* She took the lead as always so you understand the dynamic and I was on my back kind of shaking and wanting to roll to my side and curl up. I have had a lot of meaningless (to me) hook ups and they were once pretty common occurrences, so it's not like I have some sacred notion of sex that was hanging me up. But that was upsetting and hard. Since she has gone on a few binges and I have never said no. If we had hysterical bonding I think it was some of the freaky stuff we did in the period she was continuing her affair and I was saying WTF.


Sounds as if she wanted to reconnect with you and secure your relationship but you were skeptical and that was not easy to fathom. You were scared because you feared that you were forgiving her affair by having sex and you did not know what land you would end up living in afterwards – something like that?

There is a thread going on in CWI (Dadof2) who is contemplating R with his WW. She wants to save their marriage but would sex confuse them right now? Many posters are warning him not to jump in bed with her.

Once when I a little kid I went over to a neighbor's house and the their kids, much older than us had tried bake something but had gotten the recipe mixed up so that they ended up with a bowl full of dough that was resistant to whatever shape it was supposed to take. We tried eating it raw. It was full of sugar and butter. Tasted excellent to me. I don't think too many adults would have eaten it. What is acceptable – even wonderful – at one stage of life may not be at another.

Conjugal discord can really be unimportant because wild monkey sex blocks out everything else. If it finishes with a feeling of confusion, contempt and self loathing, then the couple is in deep trouble. If the kiss and fall into a coma, they may overcome their problems or at least put them off.

The irony is that the affairs are often an attempt to recapture youth, a sort of hormonal renaissance. So HB ought to be the right response at some liminal level.


----------



## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

LongWalk said:


> Sounds as if she wanted to reconnect with you and secure your relationship but you were skeptical and that was not easy to fathom. You were scared because you feared that you were forgiving her affair by having sex and you did not know what land you would end up living in afterwards – something like that?
> 
> There is a thread going on in CWI (Dadof2) who is contemplating R with his WW. She wants to save their marriage but would sex confuse them right now? Many posters are warning him not to jump in bed with her.
> 
> ...


I don't know. I am probably not equipped for psychological analysis. I take your point about the batter. If this marriage ends I do not want another one unless it is with someone else who does not want another one.


----------



## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

Harken Banks said:


> If this marriage ends I do not want another one unless it is with someone else who does not want another one.


Interesting thought, two people getting married despite themselves.

I think I understand. It's sort of akin to the theory that the best leaders come from the ranks of those who don't really want the gig but step up anyways.


----------



## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

GTdad said:


> Interesting thought, two people getting married despite themselves.
> 
> I think I understand. It's sort of akin to the theory that the best leaders come from the ranks of those who don't really want the gig but step up anyways.


I think that is right but I also have not given it a lot of thought. Maybe its more like I just want to walk the earth. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yh-QWKGbm2Q


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Harken, 

You are right up there with Racer in the insightful analysis first division.

I think marriage is a mistake for a lot of men in modern society, especially among those with education and careers. Why isn't having children and being committed to those children enough?

Shouldn't spouse have to come through and be reliable because of their character? A wedding ring, does that make a person better? Today isn't it just a reminder that divorce is expensive and troublesome?

Neil Young is divorcing after 36 years.



> Neil Young and his Neil first met Pegi when she was working as a waitress at a diner near his California ranch, a story he tells in the 1992 song "Unknown Legend." "I used to order just to watch her float across the floor," he sang. "She grew up in a small town/Never put her roots down."


Read more: Neil Young Files for Divorce From Pegi Young, Wife of 36 Years | Rolling Stone 
Follow us: @rollingstone on Twitter | RollingStone on Facebook


----------



## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

LongWalk said:


> Harken,
> 
> You are right up there with Racer in the insightful analysis first division.
> 
> ...


It's funny. I saw that too. And probably for no sensical [yeah, beat me up on the grammar] reason I thought of Curt Kirkwood saying of Kurt Cobain that he had a nice voice.

Sailing heart ships through broken harbors


----------



## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

barbados said:


> Or it meant that she realized that her Plan B had options and didn't need her. The control had shifted and she didn't like it.
> 
> Sucks when the cake eater gets their cake taken away.


Or pushed in their face. I love my wife very, very much. But I cannot tell you how ready I am for other adventures.


----------



## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Kid snuggling time. Shame on me if I "pass out."


----------



## BetrayedAgain7 (Apr 27, 2013)

Harken Banks said:


> Shame on me if I "pass out."


So much resentment in those few words Harken.


----------



## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

Xenote said:


> Harken did your therapist say that you in front of her?
> did you mention that to her?
> 
> here is my thought while your expected to look at her differently let's turn around the question....how is she suppose to look at you? have her answer her that. Why you ask....because many cheaters, want others to understand they can change, they are different, and others should accept them for that change....but and here is the interesting aspect, i want you to stay the same, i don't want you to change because this marriage is only good for one person to change not both, which equals to i can be bad but you must be good...think about that


very good point Xenote


----------



## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

wmn1 said:


> very good point Xenote


Not in front of her, though she was always invited. It was at a time I was falling apart quite visibly because I could not believe what had happened. I was holding on to attachments with every shaken fiber of my being. A naive but beautiful idea past. She was telling me that is not reality. In order to heal, you have to accept reality, distasteful as it may seem now. I was really a mess and dragged through this process of not letting go for a long, long time. My friends recognized it very early on and said we are worried. You are stuck in the first phase of this and not moving on. They had some interesting analogies that came out of some learning they had. I'll try to share one as it has application broader than my experience.

As to the point, we discussed this some, especially in the early aftermath. I asked how she saw me and remembered that she once looked at me like she adored me and I had not paid attention to the change but now all I saw in her eyes was resentment and disdain. And I wanted to say look at me, see me. But she did. Marriage or no marriage, I have work to do.


----------



## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

Harken,

Reality svcks..

~sammy


----------

