# new here, need some advice



## tomja (Oct 10, 2013)

Hi guys, I'd like some outside advise on my story because I just don't know anymore.

I've been toghether with my GF for 4 years now, known her for 5. We bought a house together a while back, we have a common bank account etc but no children.
I allways thought of her to be the most honest person alive and I have trusted her deeply for most of our relationship.
About a year ago, I lost my job. I took a major hit in the self confidence department and it took me a while to get my sh** back toghether. 
Around the same time my GF finally found a job to her qualifications and that has given her a major boost.
Our sex life tanked, we went from several times a week to about once a month.
I mainly thought this was due to my lack of self confidence (I became hesitant to initiate) and because I probably wasn't as attractive to her anymore.
After a couple of months I decided to take my life back, found a new job, went to the gym, started some evening classes...
However the sex life still wasn't much better.

There had been some red flags, she had started to spend more time and money on her appearance, clothes, make up, grooming... but this was all explained by the new job. You can't go to work dressed the same way when you're a waitress then when you're a lawyer, right?
Her new job has allways been demanding, long hours etc. but if she really wants she can take the morning or the afternoon off without any problem.
She also has to be on call 24h a day for 4 days a month. She usually stays in a hotel near work for those days because she has to be in the office ASAP when they call and we live fairly far away from where she works.

For a while now, I have noticed that she has changed sexually.
She is a lot more confident now, likes to try out new things, and she feels quite experienced at all the new stuff we try even though we are still not having sex very often.
When she goes down on me, she has gone from someone who couldn't take more than 'just the tip' without throwing up to a full blown deep throat expert in a couple months time. And a couple months means only a couple bj's for me in our current sex life.
Anyhow, it took me a while before I got suspicious ( I guess I was in denail) but when I finally did, I started snooping.
Facebook, email, browser history, phone records, bank statements... all turned out clean except for some internet porn ,which was a surprise, but nothing I had never done.
I convinced myself it was all in my mind for a while but the sexual changes got so big ( she suddenly starts getting brazilian waxes when she never made much effort in that department before) that I ramped up the snooping. I got a keylogger on her computer, I hacked her Iphone account so I could use the Find my Iphone app to track her etc.
Still nothing. 

By now I know that she knows that I'm snooping. I left the find my Iphone thing open on her computer once and keylogger tells me that she did look at it and logged in to it herself.
I also have the feeling that she knows about most of the other snooping because she hardly uses her email, facebook or personal computer anymore while she was pretty addicted to all that stuff before.
She has never confronted me about this and she has never changed any passwords.
She is however keeping her Iphone close to her ever since I started snooping and there was one episode where she was acting extremely shady with it, but I can't do much with that since she has updated the Iphone to a software version for which there is no jailbreak yet. No jailbreak, no Spy software.
She never was much of a computer wizzard, allways turned to me for even the most basic computer questions, but it seems she has me all figured out (or I'm getting paranoid).

Then last week, I caved, I did a soft comfront and told her I was being suspicious over the changes in her behaviour, and that I had been snooping on her.
She responded very calmly and understanding, she had a logical explanation for everything I said and she said she would probably be suspicious too if the roles were reversed. She also said she had no idea whatsoever that I was snooping on her.
It was all pretty convincing but I still got the feeling she was talking to me like a lawyer, building up a case, and not like my GF. And then she dropped out of character for a little bit and asked me if I had found anything on her phone. I could tell she was nervous when asking and she quickly added that I could ask her for an explanation on anything that I could have found that could have made me suspicious.

So far, the only thing the snooping has told me is that she deletes some of the texts to her 2 best friends, that she gets a missed call from time to time from several numbers that are not in her phone book but never calls them back, and she deletes those missed calls, that she has deleted a number of emails from her email account months before I started getting suspicious and that she has updated her iphone the very same day she deleted the emails (and she is notorious for never updating anything ever - used to drive me nuts)
Oh, and everytime there is cheating in a movie or a tv series, especially scenes where it is made clear how hurtfull it is to the BS she scratches her nose. Every single time. I even suggested we would start watching Mad Men from the beginning again (we both love that show) just to figure out if I'm imagining this and it's like clockwork. 

So there you have it, lots of red flags, lots of opportunity, and lots of motive but no hard evidence.


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

Has to be in the city for 4 days out of the month? Are you invited to visit her, or are you told to stay home if you bring it up?

What kind of law is she involved in? Perhaps one of the other lawyers (maybe an alleged affair partner) knows all the in and outs of where to erase all evidence, and is coaching your GF on what to do, what to hide, how to respond when confronted...


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

Definite red flags Tomja. Time to really go dark and quiet and step up the snooping. Weightlifter might be here soon with how to use VARs to really find out what's going on. VARs need to be in the car and anywhere else in the house where she makes calls from. Sounds like she might have a burner phone. And also another email account at work that is being used. The OM (if there is one) is almost certainly connected with work or a coworker. Also a surprise visit to her hotel in the city during the four days (but only after you have called her and not got a response straight away when she should have responded).

Act as if you are starting to trust her and she might let her guard down.


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## tomja (Oct 10, 2013)

Well, I do visit her when she is staying in the city every time I have the chance.
But then again, she usually knows in advance when I will come over.
As for the VAR thing, she commutes to work by train, so the only option there is to plant one in her purse. And there isn't a day that goes by without her turning her purse upside down because she has lost something again. I would really have to go super stealth on that one (I'm allready looking in to that but any advice is wellcome).
As for the other party being an expert on how to keep an affair a secret, that's more or less my line of thought right now wether he be another lawyer or not.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

Bearing in mind she's a lawyer and she's trained to be convincing:

What was her plausible explanation for her change in oral technique?


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## tomja (Oct 10, 2013)

As far as I know, at the firm where she is working there are only women and gay guys (that's allso how she explained the changes in appearance -"the gays at work told me to wear more lipstick, change my hair etc etc) One of them however is one of the 2 best friends of whom she is regularly deleting texts. Could be he's covering for her.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

1. I'd be checking up on if she's seeing anyone on those 4 days, possibly either hire a PI, or start dropping to surprise her.

2. Consider a pen var or another var you can slip into her hotel room. Perhaps go with her the first night , secure it under a desk or the back of a dresser, and then go back the last night and retrieve it.

3. Consider a pen var in her purse?

Also what about through the weeks when she's normally working? Is she going out with friends at night?


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## nogutsnoglory (Jan 17, 2013)

She wanted to know about finding anything on the phone? This was an obvious admission of guilt. Why even think to ask that if she had not done anything wrong..
She is smart man. She has cheated though. I am not one of the people that will come on here and say maybe not, maybe coincidence, blah blah blah. When it smells like a rat it is a rat and those people are always wrong. It is happening at work. Can you hire a PI..? What is the job like? Are there places at work she may be having sex, like in the building? Then there is the hotel once a month.. You can be sure that is being used to the fullest. When a WS is as crafty as yours is, I always think a PI is the best way to go. That way you can sit back and act like nothing is wrong and account for your time and she won't know she is being thoroughly watched.
Weightlifter will be here to help, but I am afraid your W is so on to your snooping and it sounds as if she has someone helping her with the technology so be extra careful where you put the VAR's


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## nogutsnoglory (Jan 17, 2013)

tomja said:


> Well, I do visit her when she is staying in the city every time I have the chance.
> But then again, she usually knows in advance when I will come over.
> As for the VAR thing, she commutes to work by train, so the only option there is to plant one in her purse. And there isn't a day that goes by without her turning her purse upside down because she has lost something again. I would really have to go super stealth on that one (I'm allready looking in to that but any advice is wellcome).
> As for the other party being an expert on how to keep an affair a secret, that's more or less my line of thought right now wether he be another lawyer or not.


you need to show up late. I mean late man, catch her in bed with him.


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## tomja (Oct 10, 2013)

As for the oral, she said she saw it in a porn, thought I might like it , got some advice from the gays at work and then it came really easily to her. 
IDK, I asked some female friends of mine, some say it takes months of regular practice, others say it's a mind trick that once you get it, it just works. All I know is that she used to have a pretty strong gag reflex and now she doesn't anymore.


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## tomja (Oct 10, 2013)

Going on the first night to the hotel and planting a VAR there had also crossed my mind.
I usually go the second or third night to break up the absence more evenly but the next time she'll have to stay in the city (next week) the only night I can go is actually the first. She knows my work schedule well in advance so it's a plus I don't have to make anything up on short notice.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

tomja said:


> As for the oral, she said she saw it in a porn, thought I might like it , got some advice from the gays at work and then it came really easily to her.


These gays at work seem very handy. Homosexuals have straight friends (and vice versa). No room for complacency there.

Is her phone out of bounds to you? That's usually a major sign that all is not well in a relationship. My wife and I know each others passwords for email, FB, etc. We have nothing to hide from each other.


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## tomja (Oct 10, 2013)

What I wanted to know in the first place is whether there is any explanaition to why someone would know that her partner is snooping on her and not say anything about it?
I must say that in the past there have been times that she was feeling insecure and I know she did some regullar snooping on me.
I put a password on my computer once when it started to get out of hand (she was freaking out about what actresses I was looking up on IMDB) and after that we had a big fight. We talked it out and we decided that there is no place for secret passcodes in a serious relationship (we're not married but it has all the aspects of a marriage minus the ring) but that she should also keep her jealousy in perspective.
For a while I thought she didn't call me out on the snooping because she knows how it's like on the other side but I just don't know anymore.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

tomja said:


> *What I wanted to know in the first place is whether there is any explanaition to why someone would know that her partner is snooping on her and not say anything about it?*
> I must say that in the past there have been times that she was feeling insecure and I know she did some regullar snooping on me.
> I put a password on my computer once when it started to get out of hand (she was freaking out about what actresses I was looking up on IMDB) and after that we had a big fight. We talked it out and we decided that there is no place for secret passcodes in a serious relationship (we're not married but it has all the aspects of a marriage minus the ring) but that she should also keep her jealousy in perspective.
> For a while I thought she didn't call me out on the snooping because she knows how it's like on the other side but I just don't know anymore.


Actually a very good question Tomja. She is trying to assess how much you already know and I am sorry to say that I agree with the others who say that she is almost certainly in some kind of affair.


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## tomja (Oct 10, 2013)

Her phone is not out of bounds all the time but she does keep it close a lot of the time. I guess if there are clear rules in the affair about when to send any messages and when not, she could keep me in the dark pretty well. Also, there is no sign whatsoever of any frequent texts or phonecalls to any number that is suspicious. But then again, it's an iphone so she could be using Imessage or Skype. don't think it's skype because that syncs with any other skype sessions you have opened anywhere else and she knows I have the password to that.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

My first thought... You better be careful with all the espionage... She's your GF, not your wife. And if she's a lawyer...

My second thought is, she's your GF, not your wife. This is a time for you to get to know each other and see if you're compatible. If you're not... 

Finally... It would be very easy for her to get around your snooping with a burner phone and work resources. She could be using an app like WhatsApp or Skype on her phone. 

C


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## tomja (Oct 10, 2013)

My best guess is she is using a burner phone she keeps at work and accasionally takes the sim out and takes it home if she's not done chatting. She's too smart to be taking a second phone home but a sim card, that would be close to impossible to find.
I say this because the only time she has been really suspicious with her phone was this one time when I could tell she was sneaking of to the bathroom with her phone, doublechecking if I wasn't anywhere nearby, then locking the door and staying in there for about half an hour. I snook up there and I couldn't hear a single thing going on. definatly no water running, not even her taking her pants of (she was wearing a belt that day) no flush afterwards, no washing hands she had been guarding her phone like a watchdog that day, but after the bathroombreak she went to bed early, 'forgetting' her phone on the living room table.
I checked, there was nothing on it, she hadn't been surfing the web, no facebook, and the messaging app was still showing the last message sent as the one she had sent to me.
But when I took of the backcover i saw that it was spotlessly clean under there, not a spec of dust. On my phone there is all kinds of crud there, and I have never known her to take off the back and clean up her phone ever.


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## tomja (Oct 10, 2013)

and the area around the sim tray where you need to insert a needle or a paperclip was scratched up.


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## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

Way too many red flags here Tomja. You are a good snooper but she's one step ahead. 
-pen VAR, go out of the house to the store/gym etc so she knows she has plenty of time to phone someone.
-'surprise' her and arrive at her city hotel around midnight with flowers saying you missed her. 
-probably has a new email account at home or on her iPhone that she always logs out of so you don't see it, same with FB etc. esp if she was addicted to it as you said. But maybe now she isn't because she has got another interest.
-I presume you have looked at her iPhone backup with iScavenge
-check her purse/wardrobe etc for a burner phone when she is in the shower.
-casually say it would be fun to meet her colleagues as they sound great and do they go for a drinks after work so you could join them one night. See how she reacts. 

Plenty of opportunities: she works late a lot, you taking evening classes, she works far away & there's lunchtime, she stays in a city hotel. 
Scratching her nose at same place in movie twice was interesting, it can be a sign of lying, body language is 80% of communication. 
Why did she say she didn't know you were snooping when you knew that she had logged onto it when you left it open?
The gay guys? usually tech savvy, they will advise her on fashion for sure, women can confide in gay guy friends more than they do in women friends, one of the guys may not be gay.
Lawyer up in case you find something is going on. Be prepared.


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## tomja (Oct 10, 2013)

I know, i'm pushing the boundarys of what is legal allready.
I know she could easily keep everything under cover by using work resources. I just don't think she would be 'doing' it at work because that would pose too much of a risk.


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

About those guys at work: do you know for a fact that they are REALLY gay, or did your GF tell you?


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## missthelove2013 (Sep 23, 2013)

why work so hard?? She is a GF, NOT a wife...
enough red flags and easy enough to walk away...id be gone


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## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

Just saw your comment about the SIM card. That had run through my mind too. It will almost certainly be in her purse stashed between credit cards or in her makeup bag - that's where I would hide it. You will have to get up in the middle of the night to search it though!


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## tomja (Oct 10, 2013)

Well, for the gay guys, one of them is older, in his 50's or so.
Deff gay, no question about it. The other is her gay bff, he's a bit exceptional in that he doesn't sleep around, doesn't go to the over the top party's... He's a romantic looking for his knight in shining armour kind of guy. He's also very short, like 5 foot, more like a boy than a man. It might be possible he's a closeted heterosexual but even if he was, my GF would never have anything sexual with him. (please don't make me doubt this)


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## tomja (Oct 10, 2013)

We own a house together, a breakup would have serious repurcussions, I wouldn't wanna end it all based on a gut feeling.
Even a strong one. And then there is this thing with wanting to know for sure...
Who is this person?


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

tomja said:


> I know, i'm pushing the boundarys of what is legal allready.
> I know she could easily keep everything under cover by using work resources. I just don't think she would be 'doing' it at work because that would pose too much of a risk.


"She's away from you four nights a month and can easily take mornings or afternoons off". Your GF really doesn't have to bring her affair 'home'. She has plenty of opportunity around work itself.

The phone in bathroom incident is highly suspicious, true.

What happened after you soft-confronted with her? Have things essentially stayed the same or has she tried to be more open?


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## tomja (Oct 10, 2013)

I searched through her purse, and through her wallet. In the wallet I found a secret compartment with what looks like a phone number.
Checked it, wasn't registered. Then I noticed that the number was written in a certain format like 555<big space>666<big space>777. It has to start with the 555 part to be a cell phone number but if you swap around the 666 and 777 it ís a registered number. Dialed it with an online phone number but it went straight to voicemail.
Later I found the exact same number in a coatpocket of a coat she hasn't worn since around the time I think it all started. Same format, big spaces between numbergroups.


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## Kallan Pavithran (Jan 17, 2012)

I think we have to call Sherlock homes.

Can you hire a PI?

Or can you take leave for some days and follow her anonymously?


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## tomja (Oct 10, 2013)

Could be she stores the sim in her makup bag, or in one of those little containers for her contact lenses, or in her wallet or that she is switching places all the time because she knows i'm snooping. She usually goes into the bathroom straight after she comes home from work with her purse. Adjusting her make-up, changeing her lenses or something. Girl stuff I thought.
Anyway, I don't even think she is taking home the sim everyday, I think it would sit in her burner phone at work most of the time and she just occasionally takes it home when she's not done talking to the OM.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

Have a PI keep watch on her for the days she is in the hotel (and you are not there). You'll probably find something concrete fairly quick.


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## tomja (Oct 10, 2013)

I've contacted a PI, but at what they charge, I don't want to do that without anything more than a hunch at when she's meeting up with the OM. Last month she was letting the hair on her legs grow out for 2 weeks as she wanted to go for another wax. The day she had scheduled an appointment to get waxed (she had scheduled it mid week, during work hours insisting that it be on wednesday or thursday even though she said the work was piling up) I thought she was surely meeting up with the OM. I rented a car, bought a cap and sat at safe distance from her work checking the door. (no backdoor). Nothing! I would have blown 500$ on that if I had hired a PI.


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## tomja (Oct 10, 2013)

And as I admitted to snooping on her and being overrun with suspicions it could very well be that she is going to lay low for a couple of weeks.


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

tomja said:


> As for the oral, she said she saw it in a porn, thought I might like it , *got some advice from the gays at work and then it came really easily to her*.
> IDK, I asked some female friends of mine, some say it takes months of regular practice, others say it's a mind trick that once you get it, it just works. All I know is that she used to have a pretty strong gag reflex and now she doesn't anymore.


Kinda personal stuff to be discussing in a professional setting no? Sounds fishy - and how very convenient to have such seemingly benign - personal advice providers. I suppose the advice was given in the office? (not the hotel room?)


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## tomja (Oct 10, 2013)

Anyway, I'm going on a 2 day trip the day after tommorow, first action plan is to have my house packed with VAR's. She would never be stupid enough to bring anyone home but who knows, maybe a phone call...


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## tomja (Oct 10, 2013)

I agree it's sort of personal. On the other hand, gays tend to be more open about all this and maybe it was during lunch break that they talked about it.
My girlfriend had allways been somewhat prudish.
I had more sexual experience than her and she was allways somewhat uncomfortable with anything new or anything too far away from plain vanilla.
I understand that more confidence in life can lead to more confidence in the bedroom and that me being at a low point confidence wise could have given her the courage to stand up for what she wants but still...


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## carmen ohio (Sep 24, 2012)

tomja said:


> Hi guys, I'd like some outside advise on my story because I just don't know anymore.
> 
> I've been toghether with my GF for 4 years now, known her for 5. We bought a house together a while back, we have a common bank account etc but no children.
> I allways thought of her to be the most honest person alive and I have trusted her deeply for most of our relationship.
> ...


Dear tomja,

Given all that's happened to you in the past year to so, now is the time that you should be focusing on the big picture -- where are you in your life, where do you want to be and how best to get there. Let's take a step back and consider some basics.

You have been with your GF for four years, have set up house with her and have co-mingled your finances with hers. Importantly, the two of you are not married and have no children. You, obviously, are more emotionally dependent on her than she is on you. Now, you are having doubts (to say the least) about the future of your relationship based upon changes in her behavior, etc. Maybe she is cheating on you, maybe she isn't, but what is clear is that she is moving on with her life much more successfully than are you. So, it's time to take stock of your options, which include:

1) Continuing to do what you are doing (leaving the relationship more or less unchanged, continuing to monitor her communications for proof of cheating, hoping that she is not); and

2) Deciding if she is really the woman you want to eventually marry, have children with and spend the rest of your life with.

What I am trying to say is that you are examining the leaves of your life while losing sight of the trees. You are still young, you have options, you could move on with minimal damage to your finances, you don't have to settle for anything less than a great relationship with someone who is totally committed to you. One question to ask yourself is why you seem content with such an imperfect relationship. In this regard, I suggest you read "No More Mister Nice Guy" by Robert Glover. Here is a link: No More Mr. Nice Guy | A Plan for Love, Sex, Dating & Career.

If you accept the challenge of reexamining your life, the first step in the process is to begin to disengage emotionally from your GF. This is often described as the "180." You can Google it to learn what it entails but, basically, it means starting to live more like you did before you became emotionally attached to her and doing things that will make you a better and more attractive man, like:

- getting in better physical shape,

- improving your appearance (e.g., new clothes)

- focusing on your career,

- developing new interests outside of your relationship and

- spending more time with friends/making new friends.

There are several benefits of doing this. First, as you begin to detach from her, you will be able to think more clearly about your relationship, if it is what you want, if you are getting what you need out of it, etc. Second, it will send a signal to your GF that you are not dependent on her and that, if she wants you to stick around, she will have to do a better job of meeting your needs (sexually and otherwise). Third, if something happens that causes you to end the relationship (like you catch her cheating), you will be better prepared emotionally and otherwise to begin building a without her and to attract a new love interest.

If you ultimately decide that you want to try to improve your relationship with your GF, then you need to think seriously about what changes are required -- both by you and by her -- to achieve this. This is no easy task and there is no guarantee of success. It will require you to know what you need from her, let her know this, and also let her know what will be the consequences if she doesn't agree to doesn't do what you need her to do. You will also need to do things to increase your attractiveness. I suggest you read "Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011" by Athol Kay, which describes how to attract and hold on to a good woman. Here is a link: The Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011 | MMSL Primer | By Athol Kay | Married Man Sex Life.

I'm not going to try to analyze the "red flags" to predict whether your GF is cheating or not. The truth is that you have reason to suspect her of this but you don't have proof. What you have convincing evidence of, however, is that she is a lot less attached to you than she should be, given how attached you are to her. Most telling is that, when you confronted her with your suspicions, she reacted as a lawyer rather than as a GF. Apparently, she did not tell you how much she loves you, express any sorrow for causing you to doubt her loyalty or offer to do something different to assuage your suspicions. Instead, she basically blew off your concerns and left you in exactly the same position you were before you confronted her. What this says is that you can expect very little to change in her behavior and that she places much more importance on her needs than on yours. You need to decide if you are OK with this (you shouldn't be).

You are at a crossroad. You need to decide if this relationship is acceptable to you as it exists today and, if not, what you are going to do about it. As I said above, you have options. Start to examine them. _Think with your head rather than your heart. _Start doing what is best for _you_.

If you're like most guys who come to TAM/CWI for advise, unfortunately, you will not do these things. Rather, you will continue to focus on your GF, what she is or isn't doing and how you can win her back. You will not take decisive action until things have gotten to the breaking point, and you will not be prepared emotionally for dealing with the crisis. Instead, you will simply muddle through, experience a lot of unnecessary pain along the way and eventually allow her to decide your fate.

Please don't be that kind of guy. Take control of your life now.


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## distraughtfromtexas (Apr 25, 2013)

Sounds very fishy. You have been given good advice, I hope you figure it out soon.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

Tomja, 

She is a smart cheater. I understand that you need to know what is going on for many reasons even though she is only a GF (and not yet a wife). The first is that you have a house together and the other important one is that you need closure on just how badly you were deceived here but also, more importantly, why!

Now she is going to be difficult to pin down and maybe pen VARs in the purse or even smaller devices may be one way. Surprising her at her place of hookups (may not be the hotel in the city) is the second - in that case you need to think carefully where else (remember each time that you try and catch her out and she escapes, she will get wiser and more careful). Befriending certain people at her work and innocently getting them to divulge missing pieces of this puzzle may help. Trying to locate the burner SIM and/or phone may also help. Putting a PI onto her will definitely help.

The other thing you can work on is to try and find out why she is doing this. It may be as simple as a combination of opportunity, good old fashioned lust and something you may have said or done. If that is the case then there is not much else you can do other than to get rid of her. She may genuinely have fallen in love with someone else. Who knows - but it would help to find out why.


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## tomja (Oct 10, 2013)

Writing all this stuff down really helps to put it all in order.
To be honest I was still 50/50 on wether she was cheating or not when I started this thread but now as I re-read all i've written...


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## tomja (Oct 10, 2013)

As to why she's doing this, I think she just lost it with me when I was unemployed and to be honest quite preoccupied with myself.
She is exeptionally beautifull and I know she gets approached daily.
I was always certain she was keeping the door closed for other guys but I guess I left it open myself by turning myself into a wallowing couch potato for a while.
The only thing I don't really understand is that she is still giving me all the signs she want's a future with me. I don't get the feeling she's working on an exit, I just get the feeling she's ***** someone else.


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

tomja said:


> Well, for the gay guys, one of them is older, in his 50's or so.
> Deff gay, no question about it. The other is her gay bff, he's a bit exceptional in that he doesn't sleep around, doesn't go to the over the top party's... He's a romantic looking for his knight in shining armour kind of guy. He's also very short, like 5 foot, more like a boy than a man. It might be possible he's a closeted heterosexual but even if he was, my GF would never have anything sexual with him. (please don't make me doubt this)


Tomja, it is too late for not wanting to doubt her-you already have serious doubts about her level of commitment to you.

I agree with other posters, you may very well have to reassess whether or not you want to carry on with her. Where do you see yourself, in regards to her, 5 years from now? 

EVEN IF SHE ISN'T CHEATING, one thing comes through loud and clear: she is growing in a different direction from you, and you're still stuck where you were before.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

A really perceptive post from Carman Ohio as always



> Most telling is that, when you confronted her with your suspicions, she reacted as a lawyer rather than as a GF. Apparently, she did not tell you how much she loves you, express any sorrow for causing you to doubt her loyalty or offer to do something different to assuage your suspicions. Instead, she basically blew off your concerns and left you in exactly the same position you were before you confronted her.


When you confronted her she admitted that what she was doing was indeed suspicious; that were the roles reversed, she'd be suspicious too.

What happened next?

In any LTR if you make your SO feel distressed, you'll make it up to them in words and deeds. Let's say you GF is innocent. She admitted the way she was behaving was suspicious. The way she made you feel was unwarranted. Has she made efforts to allay your suspicions since? If not, it means she doesn't lay great store on how you feel. 

This is not a good place to be, even if she isn't cheating/being unfaithful.


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

tomja said:


> My girlfriend had allways been somewhat prudish.
> I had more sexual experience than her and she was allways somewhat uncomfortable with anything new or anything too far away from plain vanilla.


Yet she discusses deep throat techniques with men at work?

:scratchhead:


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## davecarter (Aug 15, 2013)

* Honest/trusting relationship
* Average sex-life and now a lot more confidence
* Find-My-iPhone; Keyloggers; 
* Smart-and-cool-headed woman always one-step-ahead
* 'Mad Men'
* Red-Flags galore but no hard evidence

Sounds familiar... :scratchhead:


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## TheFlood117 (Mar 24, 2013)

@tomja. Yeah bro, she's cheating. I mean, it's possibly that she's not. But the chances of that are pretty slim. I guess you can recon all you want and you sound like you know how- VAR's, keyloggers and stuff are all good. But just, you know, prepare yourself. Cause where there's smoke there's fire. You wouldn't be here if something wasn't seriously "off" about your girl. 

I found pictures, VAR's and a movie of my WW and her lover. So, my advice to you is. NOT to listen to them or watch them. This will kill you, it will tarnish her for you forever. Have a close friend confirm it. 

I'm sorry. I really am. It's going to get worse, I'm not gonna lie. But you will come out stronger and tougher than before. A sort of Tomja 2.0. 

Good luck. Best of wishes.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Standard copy paste below

Your wife is acting funny. Her phone and email suddenly have passwords you don't know. She shuts down phone apps or changes windows on the computer whenever you enter the room. She is suddenly staying out until 2 to 5 in the morning. She has new single friends. She has lost weight and is dressing hotter to boot. Her ex contacted her 3 weeks ago and she wants “to meet to catch up at some public place” Any of this sound familiar? 

If you are reading this your gut is going crazy. “Relax”, in that there is a high liklihood that you are not crazy at least. “Your gut” is your basic instinct from the caveman period. There is something up with your mate. It is part of your mind built into you and in your DNA. You probably cant sleep. You are losing weight like crazy and are not hungry. Well if you are reading this and that is 90% of you reading this if its your first time... You are embarking on what is probably going to be the worst time of your life.

Chin up, yes I know it is damn near impossible to believe now, but I and the people at TAM here have taken dozens of men through this process. Some reconcile, most dont in the long run so be aware. Most of us hang around this grim grim place for a sense of “pay it forward” and “getting at the truth” Even in divorce, the long run the majority find love again... yes really. Often selecting a far far better future companion. Read poster BFF for a thread of disaster, divorce, recovery, and a new wonderful woman in his life. Younger and hotter, yes, but also one with better boundaries, often a far far better personality match. Oh and they get to go through that first time with her after the first I love you's have been exchanged. Just know, that for the majority, even if the marriage crashes, in six months, a year, maybe two you will wonder how you got so far so fast and how great your new life is. You will also be MUCH MUCH stronger as a person.

So. Here are your instructions. Do this now. I dont mean next week. I mean make something up within the next day and GET IT DONE! Not looking will only prolong your agony.

NO MORE CONFRONTS!! Play dumb husband for a bit. Dont drive her further underground! Soft confronts RARELY WORK AND ONLY MAKE GETTING AT THE TRUTH HARDER!!! THIS PROLONGS YOUR AGONY! NEVER give up you get your intel from the VAR. You tell her, you always got your info from a PI or someone saw them. Hard confronts with overwhelming evidence to crush all resistance are the name of the game.

Buy 2 sony ICDPX312 or ICDPX333 voice activated recorders. Best Buy sells them for like 50 bucks. DO NOT BUY THE cheapies. USE LITHIUM batteries. We have examples of 25 hour recordings using them on these sony recorders. My icon IS a Sony ICDPX312. No I do not have stock in nor work for Sony.

Setup instructions are on page 19. Also good stuff on page 31.
Use 44K bit rate for balancing file size vs quality DO NOT USE 8K!!!!! Simply put. The higher the quality the better the sound and 8K sucks. ALSO. The higher the quality the more you can manipulate the mp3 in Audacity.
Set VOR "on" see page 38
See page 40 for adding memory if necessary
Play with it yourself to get familiar. TEST IT OUT 
Turn off the beep feature. Its on one of the menus. You can even play prevent defense by going to a dollar store, buying uber-cheapie earbuds, cut off the buds but put in the jack which will actually disable the speaker for additional protection.

Go to Walmart and buy heavy duty velcro.
This is one item: Velcro Heavy-Duty Hook and Loop Fastener VEK90117: Office : Walmart.com
also
Purchase VELCRO Hook and Loop Fasteners, Sticky-Back, for less at Walmart.com. Save money. Live better.
The velcro is usually in the fabric section or the aisle with the fasteners like screws.

Use the velcro to attach the var under her seat UP INSIDE. SECURE IT WELL!!!!!! So well even a big bump wont knock it off. attach one side HD velcro from Walmart to back. USE BIG PIECE
attach other side HD velcro again UP INSIDE car seat. 

ATTACH THE CRAP out of it. It needs to stay put going over big potholes or railroad tracks.
I recommend exporting the sound files to your comp. The recorder is very cumbersome for playback.

Put the second VAR in whatever room she uses to talk in when you are not around. If you are a typical man, use your size advantage to put it someplace she cant reach, even on a chair. Beware spring cleaning season if she does it.

Amazon has a pen VAR that can be placed in a purse or other small place to get remote conversations. Yes the pen works.

Usual warning. If you hear another man and perhaps a little kissing or... STOP Listening and have a trusted friend listen and tell you what went on. Knowing she is a cheat will kill you. Hearing her moan while another man is inside her will murder you to your very soul!!!!!! You are not strong enough to hear that. Dont try it. I know what I am talking about in this.

If you need clean up the recordings get Audacity. Its free from the internet. I have used it on var work for others here to remove things like engine noise. If needed, I have done var work for four men here. RDMU is the only one who has released some of the confidentiality. Read his second thread for my reliability and confidentiality. 

Lets be very clear about what the VAR is for and is not for. It will not be court admissible evidence. It is not for the confrontation. IT IS TO GET YOU AHEAD OF THE AFFAIR so you can gain other real evidence by knowing the who and when. NEVER MENTION YOUR VAR EVIDENCE. As far as the cheater is concerned, they were seen by a PI or something NOT your VAR!!

If your wife comes home from an alone time does she immediately change liners, change panties possibly even immediately laundering them?, shower? This can be an after the fact clean up. Amazon sells a semen detection kit called checkmate.

The ezoom GPS has been found to be easy to buy at Radio shack and useful. There is even a locator webpage you can track with.

Look for a burner phone. This is a second phone from a prepay service just used for cheating communications. That is often why wives let the husband "see their phone" The dont use their main phone for cheating purposes.

There is an app out there called teensafe. Its for both Iphone and Android. It monitors texts, GPS and facebook. Needs no jailbreak. Not perfect and delayed but no jailbreak required.

Look for apps on her phone like words with friends. It has a non traceable texting feature.
Here is a list 25 Apps to Help You Cheat On Your Girlfriend | Complex
Rclawson came up with how to get the PW on an ipad
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...eling-my-wife-cheating-me-16.html#post4692714

A poster named Stigmatizer came up with this nice app that appears to give the caller name for iphones:
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...y-creepy-happening-my-home-7.html#post4769890
New From Rosie Thread
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/4854930-post220.html
Hi rosie!

If he uses chrome or firefox, there is probably a list of saved passwords you can look at. Even if his email isn't saved there, people usually only use a couple of different passwords, so one from the list might work. 

For firefox it's Tools -> Options -> Security -> Saved Passwords

For Chrome it's the little box with three bars in the top right -> Settings - Show advanced settings -> Managed saved passwords

I don't know if other browsers save the passwords where you can view them but you should be able to google and find out!

hope this helps! 

Comments:
UGH WHY OH WHY OH WHY OH WHY DO PEOPLE INSIST ON DOING SOFT CONFRONTS? Did watching RDMU go thru hell for 7 weeks teach us NOTHING?
STILL put one in her car. 
This one has Eric415 WRITTEN ALL OVER IT!
She has Iphone do the syncing thing


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Let me be a bit blunt: SHUT UP (to her) Play dumb partner.
See what she has downloaded on her phone:
Text Free
Words with friends. Other games with chat features.

Up against an high IQ female aware of your suspicions. Buckle your seatbelt you will need it.


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## TheFlood117 (Mar 24, 2013)

@tomja. 

Do EVERYTHING Weightlifter just posted. Dude is pro with recon and 180. 

You are getting great advice. Follow through. 

Stay on TAM and vent.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

The second sim sounds plausible. We've had cheaters on here that did that before.


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## tomja (Oct 10, 2013)

Thanks weightlifter, I was looking forward to your advice as you come highly recommended.
I allready have one of the sony's but as I said, she doesn't drive to work and they are a bit too big to plant in a purse. I bought a var that looks identical to a thumb drive put some holiday pictures on it to make it look legit and made the file with the audio recordings hidden.
This should be enough for her technical savoir faire but I kind of freaked out about the fact that OM might be good with computers and figure the thing out.
Also, since she works long hours the thumb drive simply didn't have the stamina to last an entire day and there's no point in knowing that she's been a good girl for 11 hours if you don't know what happend after that. 
I'm now looking into those russian super small VAR's they're expensive but not more than 1 day of PI work and I think I could get one very well hidden in the lining of her purse. (man I hope she's not on this forum - don't think so, we're from europe) 
Also, I'm counting on the VAR's to record something when I'm away and I'll try planting one in the hotel room next week.
I'll keep you guys posted.
Thanks for the help!


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## TheFlood117 (Mar 24, 2013)

Alright, this is one of the best VAR's. Easily. It's completely stealth. 

It's how I heard my wife bang OM. Yuck. 

Voice Activated Recorder Pen MQ-77N

Alright, I'm getting triggers. Gotta get off TAM. Heavy bag here I come.


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## badcompany (Aug 4, 2010)

azteca1986 said:


> A really perceptive post from Carman Ohio as always
> 
> When you confronted her she admitted that what she was doing was indeed suspicious; that were the roles reversed, she'd be suspicious too.
> 
> ...


Great paragraph, and very relative to my situation.
My W has never followed this from the beginning.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

Your girlfriend has become an expert cheater.

She sounds like she's very smart, so learning how to hide stuff via technology shouldn't be too hard for her. She just never had an interest in it before, so she didn't. Now she does have an interest in it, so she has become quite proficient at it.

Scratches where the sim card goes, which is completely clean? This is way beyond the level most cheaters go to in order to hide the affair.

The long and irregular hours of a fledgling attorney could provide the perfect cover for an affair.

The coded phone number is the key. Could you hire a private investigator to track it down? No surveillance, just who owns the phone number?

Does she delete texts only from the two friends?

What are the chances that she works with all women and gay men, and NOT A SINGLE HETERO MAN in the entire firm?

Law firms, like any other business, have a lot of third-party companies with regular business dealings. First of all, clients. Secondly, IT consultants. Then, depending on the type of law, process servers; doctors; private investigators; law enforcement; heck, even the Fed Ex guy or the mailman. Not to mention guys who work in the same building, like the security guards or the front desk staff, or go to the same place for lunch.

Based on her behavior, I would agree that it possibly could be primarily a sexual, not romantic or emotional, affair, which is very unusual for a woman to begin with. Based on my experience, this type of sexual only affair for a woman would occur more frequently with someone of much lower job rank, rather than with someone in her pay grade.

What catches my eye in your story is how much emphasis you put on being temporarily unemployed and how it affected her view of you. If she is having an affair, I would suspect someone like the mailman or the Fed Ex guy, someone she may consider beneath her, who is good for sex but not, in her eyes, for a partner.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Keep in mind that recording your GIRLFRIEND's work conversations, especially if she's in a legal or otherwise sensitive job, may get both of you in a lot of trouble. Please talk to a lawyer before going nuts with the spy stuff.

C


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Actually others are better than I by far on the 180. 

BTW you are 9999 miles ahead of the others but CUT IT THE EFF OUT TALKIN TO HER!!!!!!!!!!!

Once you get to 30 posts check post 1 of RDMUs first thread and SEE YOURSELF! startlingly so. His wife was crafty too and being coached by an expert player/cheater.
LOL then read post 1 of his second thread to hear the crazy **** Ive done to help some. Did other stuff but he is the only one I got any confidentiality release from and I never break confidence.


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## moto164 (Aug 4, 2013)

If her purse has a lining maybe you could cut a slit and hide a pen var between the lining and the outer material also it may be possible to do the same thing to a coat she wears to work if it has a lining.


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## Working1 (Sep 28, 2013)

MrK said:


> Yet she discusses deep throat techniques with men at work?
> 
> :scratchhead:


Women love talking about sex with gay men, sex, clothes, gossip, you name it, it makes going to the office when you work with gay men fun : ) they are always a woman's best friends.


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## Working1 (Sep 28, 2013)

Shaggy said:


> The second sim sounds plausible. We've had cheaters on here that did that before.


look in her makeup bag again for the sim card, it could be in a compact mirror, behind the mirror part.


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## Working1 (Sep 28, 2013)

tomja said:


> Thanks weightlifter, I was looking forward to your advice as you come highly recommended.
> I allready have one of the sony's but as I said, she doesn't drive to work and they are a bit too big to plant in a purse. I bought a var that looks identical to a thumb drive put some holiday pictures on it to make it look legit and made the file with the audio recordings hidden.
> This should be enough for her technical savoir faire but I kind of freaked out about the fact that OM might be good with computers and figure the thing out.
> Also, since she works long hours the thumb drive simply didn't have the stamina to last an entire day and there's no point in knowing that she's been a good girl for 11 hours if you don't know what happend after that.
> ...


If she is like me, I change my handbag from day to night, and from day to day.When I change my bags, I find everything in them that I couldn't find earlier that day or so.... be careful if she changes her bag often, she will find the var.


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## Working1 (Sep 28, 2013)

moto164 said:


> If her purse has a lining maybe you could cut a slit and hide a pen var between the lining and the outer material also it may be possible to do the same thing to a coat she wears to work if it has a lining.


are you kidding? I would notice in a heartbeat if there was a hole in the lining of my handbag or my nice coat.... there has to be a better way.


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## Working1 (Sep 28, 2013)

I would say she is either shopping a lot, and doesn't want you to see what she is spending, or cheating.


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## tomja (Oct 10, 2013)

I agree on the not cutting the lining of her purse, that would stand out. I would have to open up the lining of her purse along the seems and then close it again with needle and thread or maybe velcro. It would require some alone time which is going to be hard. She usually keeps her purse next to the bed. Can't put it in the coat as she switches allmost daily to match the rest of her outfit.


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## tomja (Oct 10, 2013)

As I was reviewing what I was posting I was looking at the fact that she had deleted a bunch of e-mails and updated her Iphone on the same day. I went to look at her cellphone records again but there were only texts to me that day. Then I looked at what she texted me about and there was one text where she had called me Ben (that's not my name) the text was also a bit out of line with the rest of the conversation we were having. I remember not making anything out of it at the time, this was months before I was getting suspicious, I just texted back "who's Ben?" and she said "nothing, autocorrect". I checked it now and it's pretty near impossible to get to Ben when you are typing my name you would have to make 3 complete typo's in a row on completely different parts of the keyboard. I guess she freaked out and went underground that day. She was months ahead of me. And no, I have never heard her mention anyone called Ben, noone on facebook, no emails of any guy called Ben (anymore?)...


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## tomja (Oct 10, 2013)

After I did the soft comfront, she did become sweeter to me, we had sex a couple of times and it was completely like it was before (I had mentioned changes in her sexual behaviour as a reason for my suspicions). She has also been complaining about headaches and stomach problems. And I have the impression she's not sleeping well the last couple of days (she says it's because of her stomach)


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## tomja (Oct 10, 2013)

to Carmen Ohio
I've been reading MMSLP allmost finished it. To be honest there's not much new there. I had been a bit of a player before I met my girlfriend and most of the player handbooks focus on much of the same stuff when it comes to attraction. The thing about my girlfriend was that she never responded to any alpha behaviour when I met her. It was like she saw straight through it. It was only when I gave up on trying to seduce her and became more 'beta' around her that I could feel her falling in love with me.
That's why I considdered her to be good GF material in the first place. Maybe she was too insecure at the time to be involved with anyone too alpha and that now she's more confident she's allowing herself to explore the side of her that likes alpha's. IDK


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## tomja (Oct 10, 2013)

As we were talking yesterday she mentioned I was such a 'nice guy' I guess she could see my face cringe when she said it because she immediatly added she meant it in a good way and that she could only be with a nice guy.
Right now it just sounds to me as if she's saying she likes a nice guy at home and she'll get her bad boy fix somewhere else.
Might be overthinking this.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

tomja said:


> After I did the soft comfront, she did become sweeter to me, we had sex a couple of times and it was completely like it was before (I had mentioned changes in her sexual behaviour as a reason for my suspicions).


When she agreed that x and y behaviour is suspicious, did she immediately stop that behaviour? Did she do anything to calm your suspicious with openness and transparency?

It's good that the sex is there, but it's also the easiest way to take a man's mind off absolutely anything.



tomja said:


> As we were talking yesterday she mentioned I was such a 'nice guy' I guess she could see my face cringe when she said it because she immediatly added she meant it in a good way and that she could only be with a nice guy.
> Right now it just sounds to me as if she's saying she likes a nice guy at home and she'll get her bad boy fix somewhere else.
> *Might be overthinking this.*


I think you might be. MMSLP is a useful framework to understand how sexual attraction works. 

Living with someone automatically robs you of a few alpha opportunities. So, it's easy to get bogged down in feeling too beta.

_A common scenario:_ You're both getting ready to go out together. She's running a little late. She asks you "This dress or this one?" At this point you are no longer her lover, but one of her girlfriends (suitable response: whichever is easier to get you out of later  ). By the time she's ready the initial impact of how great she looks has been lost as you've been with her every step of the way.

It's not a patch on how it was when you were dating - Ring doorbell, door opens. "Wow!". Easy to remedy. Go for a beer whilst she's getting ready and pick her up. Like the old days.

Complacency is a sure-fire relationship killer. Do what you have to to put your mind at ease (with VAR's, etc), but if she wants a little more alpha in her life; be that man (again).


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## tomja (Oct 10, 2013)

I think you have a point there Azteca. In the beginning of our relationship she was quite insecure and easily intimidated by anything I did that would come over as too confident. So I toned it down, mind you, not without a fight, to make the relationship work.
I really think that was necessary at the time, but I guess I didn't cranck it up again when she was getting more confident.


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## tomja (Oct 10, 2013)

Anyhow, I remembered her I was going on that 2 day trip tomorrow and she had apparently gotten the dates wrong. 
She thought it was Thursday& friday istead of wednesday & thursday. She said "So you'll be HOME on thursday night!?"
and I could really see dissapointment in her face. Then she said "but...but...I had planned to go to the movies with my BFF on thursday night". When I said that wouldn't be a problem since I would probably be home quite late on thursday evening, that didn't really take the dissapointment away.


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## davecarter (Aug 15, 2013)

*tomja* - how are you feeling right now about this, mentally and emotionally (and physically, for that matter).
What's your gut-feeling knowing her you do...

IYO, is this woman your 'soul-mate'?


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

tomja said:


> As we were talking yesterday she mentioned I was such a 'nice guy' I guess she could see my face cringe when she said it because she immediatly added she meant it in a good way and that she could only be with a nice guy.
> Right now it just sounds to me as if she's saying she likes a nice guy at home and she'll get her bad boy fix somewhere else.
> Might be overthinking this.


Take it from a guy who's been there. With a few exceptions, my dating life before my mid-20's was like this:

Me: "So, how would you like to see a movie on Friday night?"

Girl: "Look, you're a really nice guy. Any woman would be so lucky to have you, but..."

A woman who tells a guy to his face that he's a "nice guy" is giving him the Kiss of Death.

Welcome to the Friend Zone.


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## tomja (Oct 10, 2013)

davecarter said:


> *tomja* - how are you feeling right now about this, mentally and emotionally (and physically, for that matter).
> What's your gut-feeling knowing her you do...
> 
> IYO, is this woman your 'soul-mate'?



A couple of months ago I would have responded with a resounding YES! SHE IS MY SOULMATE!
But now... I just don't know anymore. 

When I was snooping, I did find out she had had a f*ckbudddy months before we started anything. I remember asking her early in our relationship if that particular guy (who was already out of the picture at that point) had been anything more than a friend. She allways denied. Recently, after I had found out, I casually brought it up again. She still denies.
I don't want to make anything of this, I'm 99% sure that guy is really someone from the past, and I know that all women lie about their "number" especially about the ones that didn't "mean anything" but it just shows that my GF is capable of casual sex and is capable of lying about it to my face multiple times.


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## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

tomja said:


> Anyhow, I remembered her I was going on that 2 day trip tomorrow and she had apparently gotten the dates wrong.
> She thought it was Thursday& friday instead of wednesday & thursday. She said "So you'll be HOME on thursday night!?"
> and I could really see disappointment in her face. Then she said "but...but...I had planned to go to the movies with my BFF on thursday night". When I said that wouldn't be a problem since I would probably be home quite late on thursday evening, that didn't really take the disappointment away.


Disappointed because you're coming back? Over going to the movies with a gf? A movie???
If she is innocent you still have a real big problem here. 
Build up your inner strength Tomja, keep posting here, you're getting lots of support. Stay one step ahead and as per Weightlifter, act dumb - in fact read his long post again. 
You don't want to get caught up in some half-baked relationship. 
Remember there's plenty of :fish::fish::fish: in the sea.
Get your VARs in place.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

*Disappointment that you are home on Thursday over movies with friends!

Denial about her f***buddy before you!*

Plus all the other stuff that you mentioned.

There is something seriously wrong here. Snoop, snoop and snoop till you find it. Not soulmate material yet.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

tomja said:


> Anyhow, I remembered her I was going on that 2 day trip tomorrow and she had apparently gotten the dates wrong.
> She thought it was Thursday& friday istead of wednesday & thursday. She said "So you'll be HOME on thursday night!?"
> and I could really see dissapointment in her face. Then she said "but...but...I had planned to go to the movies with my BFF on thursday night". When I said that wouldn't be a problem since I would probably be home quite late on thursday evening, that didn't really take the dissapointment away.


BAM! Your weak spot. "Go out of town" for 3 days and var your place up. Make sure its mid cycle and not rag week. (assuming her horniest period is mid cycle during ovulation)

Keep quiet and play captain clueless.

BTW. Once you get to 30 posts send this to private and MAKE SURE YOU ARE DELETING BROWSER HISTORY!


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## tomja (Oct 10, 2013)

I guess she's about mid cycle right now, maybe tommorow or the day after. I'll have to be sneaky with the var's, they need a battery replacement and she has called in sick for work today (first time ever on any job) so I won't be alone in the house untill I leave the house tomorrow. Glad I did a pre setup on the VAR's the last couple of days. Maybe she is allready freaking out today so they might have recorded something allready. It's going to be really tempting to get the recordings off them today but I can't risk exposing my main trump card now.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

Tell her there has been a change and that you will not be home until Friday after all. Then come home on Thursday and follow her. She may in fact be going to the movies with her bff, but she may have had something planned after that.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

I'm guessing its a friend with benefits. Some one older, married but someone she knows there is no future with. Either that or someone married and stringing her along.

If she just synched her phone, there are programs you can use on itunes to retrieve deleted messages unless she is using a special app.

Since you can see she is deleting things, you should be able to get them.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

If you have an iphone, you should be able to get her messages through icloud. Others here have.

See the evidence gathering thread.


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## tomja (Oct 10, 2013)

Yeah, I've heard about that icloud thing. Looks dodgy though. She's syncing on her Mac right now, I could change it in the settings of her Iphone but as I said, she's kind of hogging her phone and I've put her on guard with my soft confront.
She changed the back-up settings of her phone fairly recently, before she used Icloud, but not any more.
Tried about 3 backup extractors, funny that each one finds about the same amount of deleted texts but there are allways 1-2 different on every program.
Didn't find anything out of line.
I did notice though that she is also deleting texts from me from time to time. The sweet ones.
Maybe OM is jealous?


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

Maybe she's trying to "erase" you. Even if she isn't cheating RIGHT NOW, she may very well be sizing up other guys to be your replacement...

...and you are an inconvenient hindrance.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

OP use LITHIUM batteries. RDMU came home to 25+ hour recordings using them.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

I suggest you just break up and move on.

My thought behind this is that your guy is screaming at you that something is off - even if she isn't cheating, your gut is warning you about something bring off.

Listen to your gut. Get out.


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## nogutsnoglory (Jan 17, 2013)

Shaggy said:


> I suggest you just break up and move on.
> 
> My thought behind this is that your guy is screaming at you that something is off - even if she isn't cheating, your gut is warning you about something bring off.
> 
> Listen to your gut. Get out.


Tomja,

Can you disagree with this logic? Seriously, please do not mistake boldness as lack of sympathy, but you have a long life in front of you. Choose to spend it with someone who does not do this to your life. You are desperate, becoming your own private investigator, all to find out what you already know. This girl is morally bankrupt, selfish, insecure and too damaged to be worthy of a person such as yourself. Love does blind us, but your eyes need to open and you need to cut your losses at some point. Hearing the vars, catching her in the act, what will this do but make it harder for you to heal? You already know enough, you know what value she is placing on you and your dedication to her, dump her, ignore her, move on from her. There are no other reasons for the signs you are dealing with. Are you planning on trying to "fix" her after exposure?


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## tomja (Oct 10, 2013)

nogutsnoglory said:


> Tomja,
> 
> Can you disagree with this logic? Seriously, please do not mistake boldness as lack of sympathy, but you have a long life in front of you. Choose to spend it with someone who does not do this to your life. You are desperate, becoming your own private investigator, all to find out what you already know. This girl is morally bankrupt, selfish, insecure and too damaged to be worthy of a person such as yourself. Love does blind us, but your eyes need to open and you need to cut your losses at some point. Hearing the vars, catching her in the act, what will this do but make it harder for you to heal? You already know enough, you know what value she is placing on you and your dedication to her, dump her, ignore her, move on from her. There are no other reasons for the signs you are dealing with. Are you planning on trying to "fix" her after exposure?



Hey NNNG,
I'm still not 100% sure she is cheating on me. I might have made it look as if there is no shadow of a doubt anymore but she still is a very nice person who has her heart in the right place on allmost all aspects of her life. I'm just in doubt as to wether it is still in the right place as far as our relationship is concerned.
I have asked most of my friends (who know her pretty well too by now) if they would think she would cheat on me and none of them think it possible. I've confided in my 2 best friends on all of the things I have told here and both say that even though it doesn't sound good, she would never be the kind of person to do something like that. 
Of course, I know her best of all, but there is still a part of me that refuses to beleive that she would do something that awfull to me. 

I need to know for sure, she's too valuable to me to just leave her based on a gut feeling.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

99% of the BS's here also knew that their WS would never cheat on them too.

Not saying that's true for you though. It could be as you describe.

And that statistic was made up to illustrate a point. But I bet I'm right.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Mine "only" had an EA. I was here before I found it on Mar 2 of this year.

Besides rage and everything else. My thought was "This happens to OTHER people, not me"


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## mgobluefan (Oct 14, 2013)

Here's my reaction from her telling you the blowjob trick was talked about from the gay men at work: 
They are lawyers. Not only is that talk inappropriate but it is sexual harassment to talk about in the work place.

I'm with most here that say it has to do with someone at work or associated with work. All communication could be done there, where you wouldn't have much of a chance of finding out.


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## tomja (Oct 10, 2013)

sandc said:


> 99% of the BS's here also knew that their WS would never cheat on them too.
> 
> Not saying that's true for you though. It could be as you describe.
> 
> And that statistic was made up to illustrate a point. But I bet I'm right.


Don't get me wrong, I'm seriously considdering she's cheating on me, I wouldn't be here if I weren't.
I was just saying that she is very valuable to me and that I'm not going to dump her when I'm 80% or 90% sure she's cheating on me. I want to know 100% sure.
Also, we own a house together, we got some financial support from both our parents to finance it. How does it look if we break up, sell it, probably lose money on it, all because I had a "hunch". My family really likes my GF and I don't want to come out of all this like the guy who blew up a perfectly good relationship (to my friends and family) just for some suspicions.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

tomja said:


> Don't get me wrong, I'm seriously considdering she's cheating on me, I wouldn't be here if I weren't.
> I was just saying that she is very valuable to me and that I'm not going to dump her when I'm 80% or 90% sure she's cheating on me. I want to know for sure.
> Also, we own a house together, we got some financial support from both our parents to finance it. How does it look if we break up, sell it, probably lose some money on it, all because I had a "hunch". My family really likes my GF and I don't want to come out of all this like the guy who blew up a perfectly good relationship (to my friends and family) just for some suspicions.


Even when you find out for sure you still don't have to rush to any decisions. Do what is right for you. However, if a woman did this to me before we were married, I sure wouldn't marry her. Again, do what is right for you.


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## tomja (Oct 10, 2013)

mgobluefan said:


> Here's my reaction from her telling you the blowjob trick was talked about from the gay men at work:
> They are lawyers. Not only is that talk inappropriate but it is sexual harassment to talk about in the work place.
> 
> I'm with most here that say it has to do with someone at work or associated with work. All communication could be done there, where you wouldn't have much of a chance of finding out.


Honestly, I couldn't say if it's someone related to her work. I've noticed suspicious behaviour when she was out in our town as well (nothing specific just, you know, gut feelings). I'm thinking it could be someone she knows from her commute to work on the train - so she can meet him in the city during work hours and after work in our town.
Just guessing who it could be, IF she is cheating on me.
Or IF she is ' cheating on me with 'only' one guy... 
I considder anything a possibility right now.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

I get it you need to KNOW. 

Problem is she is high IQ and wary.

YIKES!


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## itom72 (Apr 12, 2012)

weightlifter said:


> BAM! Your weak spot. "Go out of town" for 3 days and var your place up. Make sure its mid cycle and not rag week. (assuming her horniest period is mid cycle during ovulation)
> 
> Keep quiet and play captain clueless.
> 
> BTW. Once you get to 30 posts send this to private and MAKE SURE YOU ARE DELETING BROWSER HISTORY!


I'm with weightlifter - move this thread to private and delete your browser's history.

Any updates, tomja?


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Get the pen var from brickstone. Leave it around the house a few days, it really works as a pen, and the drop it in the bottom of her purse.

In the outside chance she discovers its a var, have a cover story ready. Go to a public computer, make a new email acct and send your self an annonymous email saying she is cheating on you with someone at............and has been for _______months. You can then show her this for proof.


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