# Talking about feelings vs. problem solving



## firebelly1 (Jul 9, 2013)

In my experience and hearing from others, one of the ways in which men and women seem to miscommunicate is when women have something that's bothering them and want to talk about it. She wants to talk about her feelings around it and he wants to solve the problem that created the feelings, which ends up making her feel like she isn't being heard and him feel unappreciated. On another forum I found a great description and explanation of this phenomenon:

"Women often discuss how a problem made them feel. This is a normal thing that many women would consider as important as finding a way to end the problem itself. For many women, discussing how the problem made them feel is something that continues to be important after a solution has been found and implemented. If no one close to them discusses how they felt going through the problem, those feelings are difficult to get past. 

Men are not often like this. Many men approach problems in a way that they seek a way to end the problem as quickly as possible. If the boss comes to a male employee with a problem to solve, he will begin to explain the problem and at a certain point the male employee will feel that he has enough information to suggest a solution. At that point the solution is implemented as quickly as possible. This is the way men are conditioned to approach problems. The discussion about how the problem makes you feel is a distraction from the problem and it is irrelevant after the solution has been found and implemented.

What often happens in relationships between men and women is problems that are not fully resolved because the way men and women approach the problem causes arguments that end up with the woman saying that the man never listens to her. She is correct, don't get me wrong here. To her the problem is how something made her feel. To him, the problem is the thing that caused that emotional response. He will constantly be ignoring her problem because he is trying to find a solution as quickly as possible to a problem that she probably already figured out before even talking to him about it."


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Great post! May I ask the name of the forum?


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## firebelly1 (Jul 9, 2013)

I'm not sure if it's a "forum" exactly but here's the website:

www.quora.com


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

> He will constantly be ignoring her problem because he is trying to find a solution as quickly as possible to a problem that she probably already figured out before even talking to him about it."


I think this is very important to understanding. Women usually know how to fix the problem before they confront. So, when they confront, they are generally just...scolding, rather than talking about what the problem was, specifically.

Once they have found the response/reactions they are looking for, they inform their partner of what he needs to do, so the problem is resolved and it never happens again. 

Is this semi-smart allecky comment correct or is it just a bitter point of view? I know what it is for me, it's what I've experienced and humility, remorse and a man knowing his place will alleviate these issues he has.

Sorry for giving you trouble. I don't know how else to put it and I wanted to challenge for greater clarity and understanding. I'm guessing there are others who might think similarly at first glance.

Great post and discussion. It's very important.


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## firebelly1 (Jul 9, 2013)

This summarizes what I've felt but hadn't really articulated for myself - the different ways in which men and women approach emotions. I think men are trained to ignore most feelings (except their own anger) and think of them as irrelevant while women are trained to think of emotions (except their own anger) as the most important thing. These two perspectives limit our experience as humans and make them harder to communicate with each other.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

firebelly1 said:


> This summarizes what I've felt but hadn't really articulated for myself - the different ways in which men and women approach emotions. I think men are trained to ignore most feelings (except their own anger) and think of them as irrelevant while women are trained to think of emotions (except their own anger) as the most important thing. These two perspectives limit our experience as humans and make them harder to communicate with each other.


Do you think we are trained, or that is just typical of many, though not all, people's biology?


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## firebelly1 (Jul 9, 2013)

jld said:


> Do you think we are trained, or that is just typical of many, though not all, people's biology?


I tend toward the "nurture" side of things vs. "nature" but for sure there are biological elements to it.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

firebelly1 said:


> This summarizes what I've felt but hadn't really articulated for myself - the different ways in which men and women approach emotions. I think men are trained to ignore most feelings (except their own anger) and think of them as irrelevant while women are trained to think of emotions (except their own anger) as the most important thing. These two perspectives limit our experience as humans and make them harder to communicate with each other.


I tend to disagree. I think some men have been trained to solve problems within a marriage. I think some have been trained to share issues and work through them together for a solution that is beneficial to both, compromises in areas of contention for the greater satisfaction of all, and to address issues which cause problems, believing they are being addressed in that manner, so as to understand and thereby be a part of the solution, not their own changes being the only solution. 

I think it's a knee-jerk reaction instead of a response when men try to solve anything a woman talks about. 

Sometimes, I think it would be best to stand back and let them get into their own trouble, then help clean up the mess when they cannot. I don't think that's mean. I think it's respectful of their intelligence and maturity. 

If this kind of thing happens on a regular basis, the two need to separate and find more compatible partners.


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## firebelly1 (Jul 9, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> I think this is very important to understanding. Women usually know how to fix the problem before they confront. So, when they confront, they are generally just...scolding, rather than talking about what the problem was, specifically.
> 
> Once they have found the response/reactions they are looking for, they inform their partner of what he needs to do, so the problem is resolved and it never happens again.
> 
> ...


Maybe not enough coffee but I "feel" like your scenario isn't an example of what I'm talking about and I'm having a hard time articulating why. Let me try: I think the scenario you're talking about is a power-struggle. She knows the solution the problem, i.e. what she wants, but uses dysfunctional tactics to get it. 

The scenario I'm thinking of is one where I come home from work and complain to my SO that my coworker is unfairly complaining about me to my boss. My SO's inclination is to say something like "sounds like you need to alert your boss to the fact this is happening." I already know that. I know what the solution is, but what I want from my SO is for him to sympathize with my feelings - I'm mad at my coworker and I'm afraid of having this conversation with my boss and I want him to say something that indicates he understands I'm having those feelings. 

I think for a lot of men when they read that they think "Why? What is the POINT of sympathizing?" but for women, it's vital to relate in that way.


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## firebelly1 (Jul 9, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> I tend to disagree. I think some men have been trained to solve problems within a marriage. I think some have been trained to share issues and work through them together for a solution that is beneficial to both, compromises in areas of contention for the greater satisfaction of all, and to address issues which cause problems, believing they are being addressed in that manner, so as to understand and thereby be a part of the solution, not their own changes being the only solution.
> 
> I think it's a knee-jerk reaction instead of a response when men try to solve anything a woman talks about.
> 
> ...


But that's the thing...you think it's about problem solving, and it's not.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

firebelly1 said:


> Maybe not enough coffee but I "feel" like* your scenario* isn't an example of what I'm talking about and I'm having a hard time articulating why. Let me try: I think the scenario you're talking about is a power-struggle. _She knows the solution the problem, i.e. what she wants, but uses dysfunctional tactics to get it. _


Although I very well might be misunderstanding the intentions of the discussion as presented by you in the first post, I assure you, I don't know if it is dysfunctional or not, but I do know it feels like it is. Below is a copy and paste of how I came to that conclusion.



> She is correct, don't get me wrong here. To her the problem is how something made her feel. To him, the problem is the thing that caused that emotional response. He will constantly be ignoring her problem because he is trying to find a solution as quickly as possible to a problem that she probably already figured out before even talking to him about it."


When I read that, I think of what I posted. I'm not saying what I posted would help any issue being discussed. I am speaking about my feelings. I felt controlled. I felt belittled. I felt like a child who needs told what to do. I felt my opinion was not worthy of consideration. 



firebelly1 said:


> The scenario I'm thinking of is one where I come home from work and complain to my SO that my coworker is unfairly complaining about me to my boss. My SO's inclination is to say something like "sounds like you need to alert your boss to the fact this is happening." I already know that. I know what the solution is, but what I want from my SO is for him to sympathize with my feelings - I'm mad at my coworker and I'm afraid of having this conversation with my boss and I want him to say something that indicates he understands I'm having those feelings.
> 
> I think for a lot of men when they read that they think "Why? What is the POINT of sympathizing?" but for women, it's vital to relate in that way.


That above is the knee-jerk reaction. It is not respectful of your maturity or ability to problem solve and is grossly in error. It is, something that is taught over time. It may even be a part of being a father? I don't know. I agree with you there.



firebelly1 said:


> In my experience and hearing from others, one of the ways in which men and women seem to miscommunicate is when women have something that's bothering them and want to talk about it. She wants to talk about her feelings around it and he wants to solve the problem that created the feelings, which ends up making her feel like she isn't being heard and him feel unappreciated. On another forum I found a great description and explanation of this phenomenon:
> 
> "Women often discuss how a problem made them feel. This is a normal thing that many women would consider as important as finding a way to end the problem itself. For many women, discussing how the problem made them feel is something that continues to be important after a solution has been found and implemented. If no one close to them discusses how they felt going through the problem, those feelings are difficult to get past.
> 
> ...



Thanks for explaining. I had no clue if you were talking about issues within the marriage or issues brought into a marriage by one spouse or the other.


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## Jung_admirer (Jun 26, 2013)

Empathy vs problem solving. The short answer is: don't guess at what you partner needs, just ask.

I know my partner... Normally she needs to vent, to be validated by her husband. No matter the problem, I always assume she wants me to empathize with her feelings. I always conclude with a question from the other direction (problem solving). So what are you going to do about this? Can I help you with this? I never offer a solution for her problem before she asks for help.


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## firebelly1 (Jul 9, 2013)

As I was posting I was thinking "I wonder if all this applies to problems she talks about outside of the relationship or within it as well." I think it applies to both - she wants her feelings to be heard no matter what - but it's harder for either partner to hear it when the problem is something they are doing. So that's another layer of difficulty in the communication. 

And, maybe this is what you're getting at 2ntnuf, but it's never really good to go into a conflict-resolution situation being intractable about what you think the solution should be. Often problems don't get solved because ) the parties can't agree on what the problem is and 2) the parties each think their solution is the only one. 

But again...there is the process by which we solve the problem and there is a separate process by which emotions are shared surrounding it. And that's what I'm talking about.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

firebelly1 said:


> As I was posting I was thinking "I wonder if all this applies to problems she talks about outside of the relationship or within it as well." I think it applies to both - she wants her feelings to be heard no matter what - but it's harder for either partner to hear it when the problem is something they are doing. So that's another layer of difficulty in the communication.
> 
> And, maybe this is what you're getting at 2ntnuf, but *it's never really good to go into a conflict-resolution situation being intractable about what you think the solution should be.* Often problems don't get solved because ) the parties can't agree on what the problem is and 2) the parties each think their solution is the only one.
> 
> But again...there is the process by which we solve the problem and there is a separate process by which emotions are shared surrounding it. And that's what I'm talking about.



You are correct in assuming that what I wa getting at. Do you see how, without coming into a conversation with a statement like, "I'm having a problem with work and it's bothering me. I'd like to talk about how it makes me feel.", would stop all of that in it's tracks. Now, I know humans are emotional and that is the problem isn't it? So, men cannot expect that women are angry at them when they don't know what the problem is until it's clearly stated, nor can they offer solutions. 

As Jung put it, the best solution is to listen to what is behind the emotions and do not take the emotions as a personal attack, even when they feel like they are. Ask questions at the appropriate time alluding to whether she needs help, suggestions for a solution. Then, just agree and go do something else till she calms down. 

Men must be stronger and not let their love and vulnerability control reactions. They must step back and believe that those harsh words are not indicative of her feelings toward him, until he has asked and had some specific questions answered. 

Thank you.


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## firebelly1 (Jul 9, 2013)

I agree. It would be MUCH better if women articulated that they want sympathy and not a solution to the problem. Would solve a lot of problems. As long as the man doesn't dismiss it as a waste of time, which happens too. For those women who aren't articulating it, it may be because they don't understand their own need enough to articulate it to their partner. So, it's also helpful if the man suspects that this is an issue, he ask her what she wants - problem solving or sympathy.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

firebelly1 said:


> I agree. It would be MUCH better if women articulated that they want sympathy and not a solution to the problem. Would solve a lot of problems. As long as the man doesn't dismiss it as a waste of time, which happens too. For those women who aren't articulating it, it may be because they don't understand their own need enough to articulate it to their partner. So, it's also helpful if the man suspects that this is an issue, he ask her what she wants - problem solving or sympathy.


When I read, "As long as the man doesn't dismiss it as a waste of time, which happens too.", I think, he does not love you, nor is he committed to your welfare. 

It's much more straight-forward and would surely alleviate the problems of choosing a long-term partner.

What do you mean women don't understand what they need? If they have a solution in mind as stated in the first post, before confronting the husband, how does that make sense? Do they possibly not have a solution and want to hash out feelings until they feel better and then are more able to come to a solution? 

I guess that's what you are saying at the end of that paragraph? 

Boy, that feels like a mess in the making due to a maturity issue. I hope I am wrong.

I guess that would depend on how and what is said during the conversation? I'm really struggling and even if the solution is that it is behavior we must accept, that is actually childish, at least it would be easier to accept.


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## coffee4me (Feb 6, 2013)

firebelly1 said:


> I tend toward the "nurture" side of things vs. "nature" but for sure there are biological elements to it.


I'm definitely a woman who was nurtured by my mom to problem solve and not to dwell on emotions. She taught me that emotions are often barriers to solving my problems. 

I was talking to my daughter the other day and realized that I am nurturing her in the same way. Me: "I really don't understand why you are thinking about this. Take this issue. Think: can I take an action to resolve the problem. If yes - then do it stop thinking about it. If no - then let it go, what's the point in dwelling on it". 

I come from a few generations of women who's very survival required them to be problem solvers plus they are naturally logic based thinkers math and science oriented women.


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## firebelly1 (Jul 9, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> When I read, "As long as the man doesn't dismiss it as a waste of time, which happens too.", I think, he does not love you, nor is he committed to your welfare.
> 
> It's much more straight-forward and would surely alleviate the problems of choosing a long-term partner.
> 
> ...


I think men dismiss talking about feelings as a waste of time because they are trained to problem-solve and ignore feelings. That's part of the argument too. It's not that he doesn't care how you feel, it's that he doesn't put a lot of priority into feelings in general because feelings are temporary and once you solve the problem, the bad feelings go away. It's a matter of emphasis.

For women, I mean they may not understand that they need to have their feelings acknowledged vs. having their problem solved. They might also not realize that they are insisting on getting their way at their partner's expense. Whether that's lack of maturity or lack of communication skills, I'm not sure but from a functional perspective I think what matters is that not communicating effectively doesn't work.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

firebelly1 said:


> I mean they may not understand that they need to have their feelings acknowledged vs. having their problem solved. They might also not realize that they are insisting on getting their way at their partner's expense. Whether that's lack of maturity or lack of communication skills, I'm not sure but from a functional perspective I think what matters is that not communicating effectively doesn't work.


For me, I don't always know exactly what I am feeling until I talk it out. And because my husband knows me really well, he can help me sort through my feelings. And because he is wise (imo), he can help me see things I could not see on my own.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

firebelly1 said:


> I mean they may not understand that they need to have their feelings acknowledged vs. having their problem solved. They might also not realize that they are insisting on getting their way at their partner's expense. Whether that's lack of maturity or lack of communication skills, I'm not sure but from a functional perspective I think what matters is that not communicating effectively doesn't work.


Well, I agree. I hope those working toward better communication will see the different sides of this discussion and understand what they are asking/asked to do. 

I think "communicating" or really "listening", is easier for a man to do when there is reward for his acceptance of her communications. I hope that's not out of line when speaking of problems brought into a relationship. I know it would be when there are problems within. 

Thank you.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

firebelly1 said:


> I think men dismiss talking about feelings as a waste of time because they are trained to problem-solve and ignore feelings. That's part of the argument too. It's not that he doesn't care how you feel, it's that he doesn't put a lot of priority into feelings in general because feelings are temporary and once you solve the problem, the bad feelings go away. It's a matter of emphasis.


The only thing I question here is the idea that all men are "trained" to do this. Some men, imo, are just wired that way.


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## firebelly1 (Jul 9, 2013)

coffee4me said:


> I'm definitely a woman who was nurtured by my mom to problem solve and not to dwell on emotions. She taught me that emotions are often barriers to solving my problems.
> 
> I was talking to my daughter the other day and realized that I am nurturing her in the same way. Me: "I really don't understand why you are thinking about this. Take this issue. Think: can I take an action to resolve the problem. If yes - then do it stop thinking about it. If no - then let it go, what's the point in dwelling on it".
> 
> I come from a few generations of women who's very survival required them to be problem solvers plus they are naturally logic based thinkers math and science oriented women.


Yeah - your family seems to be an example of nurture winning out over nature (if emotionalism could be considered "nature") The down side of being logical all the time, as you might be aware, is that people can experience you as cold and unfeeling; that you don't really "get" them and they don't feel close or intimate with you. Emotions do serve a relational function.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

coffee4me said:


> I'm definitely a woman who was nurtured by my mom to problem solve and not to dwell on emotions. She taught me that emotions are often barriers to solving my problems.
> 
> I was talking to my daughter the other day and realized that I am nurturing her in the same way. Me: "I really don't understand why you are thinking about this. Take this issue. Think: can I take an action to resolve the problem. If yes - then do it stop thinking about it. If no - then let it go, what's the point in dwelling on it".
> 
> I come from a few generations of women who's very survival required them to be problem solvers plus they are naturally logic based thinkers math and science oriented women.


Sort of on the lines of what men do. Then they go get together and talk about some stupid thing that had them going nuts and finally they figured it out. There is usually less emotion because the problem has been figured out and worked on. Validation of feelings is much easier to give and accept. 

Never heard of women doing this coffee. It's really cool. I'm so glad I didn't leave the thread before I read that.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

firebelly1 said:


> Yeah - your family seems to be an example of nurture winning out over nature (if emotionalism could be considered "nature") The down side of being logical all the time, as you might be aware, is that people can experience you as cold and unfeeling; that you don't really "get" them and they don't feel close or intimate with you. Emotions do serve a relational function.


But those women, or most of them, might just be wired that way, too.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

I feel the *Thinking* AND *Feeling* should be explored....talked about.. when both can come together.. and wade through this.. listening to each other.. taking these into consideration.. it's somewhere in that middle that lies the answer... without some show of emotion.. people would be COLD , callous, BORING really... without the action to move forward & overcome obstacles.. life would be full of ongoing drama & little would get done !! 










On temperament Tests.. I've always teetered between the Logical (thinking) and Emotional (Feeling).... which is kinda helpful.. so I understand this calm that comes over a woman to be listened to, heard, validated.. but also the man's desire *to FIX*.. I like to FIX too!

I don't like lingering in LIMBO.. I want to get back to "Peace".... so I wrack my brain with the pros & cons to the best way to overcome whatever it is at hand....as it won't be long before another obstacle gets laid in our path .. isn't this the truth!


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## firebelly1 (Jul 9, 2013)

jld said:


> The only thing I question here is the idea that all men are "trained" to do this. Some men, imo, are just wired that way.


I can see where this might be true. I think about the Caveman theory out there. In order for ancient men to be hunters, they had to sit and wait for their prey for a long time then be ready to overcome their fear and strike when the time was right. They couldn't let their feelings get in the way of that. In order to be soldiers, men have to ignore their feelings and do their duty. So maybe there is a biological aspect to how they respond to their own feelings.


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## coffee4me (Feb 6, 2013)

firebelly1 said:


> Yeah - your family seems to be an example of nurture winning out over nature (if emotionalism could be considered "nature") The down side of being logical all the time, as you might be aware, is that people can experience you as cold and unfeeling; that you don't really "get" them and they don't feel close or intimate with you. Emotions do serve a relational function.


Strangely enough most people find me warm and spill their hardships to me. It's because I've been through many really difficult life situations and have a lot of empathy for those going through similar experiences. 

The thing about nurturing logic based thinking is not to eliminate emotions but to learn to control them so you don't limit yourself.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

firebelly1 said:


> I think men dismiss talking about feelings as a waste of time because they are trained to problem-solve and ignore feelings. That's part of the argument too. It's not that he doesn't care how you feel, it's that he doesn't put a lot of priority into feelings in general because feelings are temporary and once you solve the problem, the bad feelings go away. It's a matter of emphasis.
> 
> For women, I mean they may not understand that they need to have their feelings acknowledged vs. having their problem solved. They might also not realize that they are insisting on getting their way at their partner's expense. Whether that's lack of maturity or lack of communication skills, I'm not sure but from a functional perspective I think what matters is that not communicating effectively doesn't work.


Talking about feeling is something different for me than for you. I will tell you how I felt under certain circumstances. I will even appreciate validation, but what we were discussing was something that appears differently in my mind. 

It's like chewing your man out for something that happened and he can't say a word, even if he feels bad for you, until you've finished. Then, he has to say he feels you were correct in how you felt about it and ask if you want him to do anything for you. 

That can feel like a half hour of chewing out until he figures out that you aren't angry with him, but some chick at work who thought your blouse showed too much cleavage. 

For my part, I'd feel like I liked it showing more at home, but just enough at work to be feminine, without being flashy. Still, it's not my place to tell you how or what to wear at work, or anywhere. If it's too much, I can leave or tell you to get out. So, all I could say is, I like seeing more of you at home. Doesn't tell even half the story, but validates your attraction.

Just an example for ya. 

Read some of my posts. I think I've been very open and honest with my feelings. I and many men, just don't want to be hollered at when it's about something outside of "you bastard. you cheated." or something similar, but not so terrible. Don't know if that helps you understand.

Also, I do get what you mean about all logic seems like no love. I would think someone who has no feelings, has a problem. 

I do not think coffee has a problem. I think she is private and only shares those things at the right place and time with the right person.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

jld said:


> The only thing I question here is the idea that all men are "trained" to do this. Some men, imo, are just wired that way.


Men have emotions and our reactions on how to deal or express are different than women and its a mix of biology and "training". Every male hears from an early age to "suck it up", "your acting like a girl" etc etc. Its not a matter of being trained as much as just being told over and over to do or act a certain way. You eventually do what your told so to speak understand or not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## coffee4me (Feb 6, 2013)

jld said:


> The only thing I question here is the idea that all men are "trained" to do this. Some men, imo, are just wired that way.


I think this is true. I found this out watching my son experience the death of my father. I was worried he seemed so distant and of course all my female friends were encouraging me that he MUST talk it out and open up, cry Etc etc. 

I talked to my brother and he said, he's handling it just fine. He's processing it, you can see that in his actions. You need to let him process it, his way. A mans way.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

honcho said:


> Men have emotions and our reactions on how to deal or express are different than women and its a mix of biology and "training". Every male hears from an early age to "suck it up", "your acting like a girl" etc etc. Its not a matter of being trained as much as just being told over and over to do or act a certain way. You eventually do what your told so to speak understand or not.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Reinforced, I might add, by other children who are going through the same. 

Maybe it's brainwashing, but my belief is few women would like us if we were just like them. Read any attraction based thread here. It just won't work. And this is what I was getting at.

There has to be compromise. Yes it's men. Yes it's women. Don't force men to come all the way over to your side. Meet us in the middle. That's all we want. My feelings are, the rewards will be well worth the efforts, for both. If not, get another partner.


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## coffee4me (Feb 6, 2013)

honcho said:


> Men have emotions and our reactions on how to deal or express are different than women and its a mix of biology and "training". Every male hears from an early age to "suck it up", "your acting like a girl" etc etc. Its not a matter of being trained as much as just being told over and over to do or act a certain way. You eventually do what your told so to speak understand or not.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Dang "suck it up" is one of my favorite phrases. That's terrible right . I think I've actually told my daughter that more than my son.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

jld said:


> For me, I don't always know exactly what I am feeling until I talk it out. And because my husband knows me really well, he can help me sort through my feelings. And because he is wise (imo), he can help me see things I could not see on my own.


This is important to understand.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

jld said:


> Do you think we are trained, or that is just typical of many, though not all, people's biology?


I think it is how we are wired. It's innate. Every individual has their own varying degrees if both "problem solving" qualities, and some qualities may be reinforced by what we are taught, but when you look at all men as a group and all women as a group -- I think it is the nature of the beast.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

2ntnuf said:


> ...I think this is very important to understanding. Women usually know how to fix the problem before they confront. So, when they confront, they are generally just...scolding, rather than talking about what the problem was, specifically.
> 
> Once they have found the response/reactions they are looking for, they inform their partner of what he needs to do, so the problem is resolved and it never happens again.
> 
> ...


It sounds like you're talking specifically about when the woman has a problem with the man. And the woman in your scenario sounds like she is fed up/frustrated. (Maybe because that's her personality in general or maybe it's the result of years of the man dismissing her concerns.) But "Confront" and "Scold" don't sound like "I have a problem I want help with" they sound like "you are the problem and you're going to pay."

The conflicting styles described in the OP apply to all problems though. For example, I will start to tell my H about problems with clients or other work related things and he immediately jumps in and starts telling me what I should have done to avoid the situation, or what I should do different. I already figured that out. I went to him hoping to get some sympathy and feel better but when he (almost invariably) does that I feel worse because 
1) He cut me off and I didn't get to air my feelings and I feel like he finds my blather so boring he can't stand to hear me out.
2) I feel like a moron being told what I should have done/should do.

From his perspective he just wants the problem to go away. But the problem is that I need someone to talk to!

Getting back to your confront/scolding scenario. Sometimes feelings I have over things H did in the past build up in me. Often because he seems to be about to do the same type of thing now. But also because it takes me a long time to get perspective on things. I have put up with being treated poorly in the moment and much later realize what BS it was. Until I air it, I can't let it go. I know he can't change the past but I do feel relieved and more secure about what he'll do in the future when he will listen to me. 

I suppose it is scolding or confronting but I also think that some people - men in particular - will do what they want knowing it is hurtful if they think they can get away with it. Dealing with confrontation later is part of the price you pay for taking advantage of someone previously. (Of course some people, women in particular, are just impossible to please, so it's not always justified.)


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

WorkingWife said:


> It sounds like you're talking specifically about when the woman has a problem with the man. And the woman in your scenario sounds like she is fed up/frustrated. (Maybe because that's her personality in general or maybe it's the result of years of the man dismissing her concerns.) But "Confront" and "Scold" don't sound like "I have a problem I want help with" they sound like "you are the problem and you're going to pay."


That's the direction I was going with that particular post. 



WorkingWife said:


> The conflicting styles described in the OP apply to all problems though. For example, I will start to tell my H about problems with clients or other work related things and he immediately jumps in and starts telling me what I should have done to avoid the situation, or what I should do different. I already figured that out. I went to him hoping to get some sympathy and feel better but when he (almost invariably) does that I feel worse because
> 1) He cut me off and I didn't get to air my feelings and I feel like he finds my blather so boring he can't stand to hear me out.
> 2) I feel like a moron being told what I should have done/should do.
> 
> From his perspective he just wants the problem to go away. But the problem is that I need someone to talk to!


I understand this. I can see the difference between this and a comment about a revealing blouse. There are a pile of problems there. 



WorkingWife said:


> Getting back to your confront/scolding scenario. Sometimes feelings I have over things H did in the past build up in me. Often because he seems to be about to do the same type of thing now. But also because it takes me a long time to get perspective on things. I have put up with being treated poorly in the moment and much later realize what BS it was. Until I air it, I can't let it go. I know he can't change the past but I do feel relieved and more secure about what he'll do in the future when he will listen to me.
> 
> I suppose it is scolding or confronting but I also think that some people - men in particular - will do what they want knowing it is hurtful if they think they can get away with it. Dealing with confrontation later is part of the price you pay for taking advantage of someone previously. (Of course some people, women in particular, are just impossible to please, so it's not always justified.)


I hear you. His reponses and remarks are so slick, you are convinced in the moment that he is correct and you go about your business until you realize what a sucker you've been. He seems very intelligent and manipulative.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Great thread and its important to learn these differences before getting married. I know in pre martial counseling We spent slot of time on different communication styles. We read "men and from Mars women are from Venus". Was all the rage back then. Once you understand better how your other 1/2 is communicating and what they are communicating then things become much easier


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## firebelly1 (Jul 9, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> That can feel like a half hour of chewing out until he figures out that you aren't angry with him, but some chick at work who thought your blouse showed too much cleavage.
> 
> For my part, I'd feel like I liked it showing more at home, but just enough at work to be feminine, without being flashy. Still, it's not my place to tell you how or what to wear at work, or anywhere. If it's too much, I can leave or tell you to get out. So, all I could say is, I like seeing more of you at home. Doesn't tell even half the story, but validates your attraction.
> 
> Just an example for ya.


So I would say in that instance, if it was me, I wouldn't want you to react to my story about the coworker and my cleavage in the way you responded above. I don't want to hear your opinion about cleavage or whether or not you agree with my coworker. I would be telling you the story because in my mind I'm thinking, "Who the hell does she think she is making any sort of comment about my cleavage?" And the response I'd be looking for from you is, "Yeah! How dare she?" or something along those lines. Your wife wants you to understand why she's mad and show that you understand why she's mad. It's not about the cleavage, it's about the impertinence of her coworker to think she has a right to say something about it.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

So, if I sort of have a repa a repetoi a list of nasty general comments about other women in your life, as long as I don't use them when you talk about your mother or sister, I should get to see more cleavage at home? Wait....I think I'm stuck between ah I mean...you are so right. She has no businees telling you what you can wear. That slvt thinks she can tell you what to do? 

Aw, I think I went too far again. Okay for the cleavage..uh the win. >

I don't understand why she thinks she can tell you what to wear?! 

Ha's Dat? :grin2:

Thank you firebelly. It was a really great thread. I learned something and think I gave others something to think about too. Sort of a homerun in my book. :smile2:


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4EDhdAHrOg&sns=em‎
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## firebelly1 (Jul 9, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> That slvt thinks she can tell you what to do?
> 
> :


Yes - you can use this one over and over and win lots of points. :grin2:


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

firebelly1 said:


> Yes - you can use this one over and over and win lots of points. :grin2:


Cool. Didn't know that. :smile2:


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Don't know if some of you guys are aware, but I've found the point system to be a little bogus. You don't get points for everything. You may get one for a diamond ring and the same for a needed hug. They don't add up. They go away real quick and one, just one, "aw shyt", will wipe out all points. 

Please correct where I am mistaken. Don't want to lead anyone astray.


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## coffee4me (Feb 6, 2013)

You have to know your woman for the point system to work 2nt. Diamond ring for me zero points. Get my car washed and the oil changed. 10000 points!!!


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

coffee4me said:


> You have to know your woman for the point system to work 2nt. Diamond ring for me zero points. Get my car washed and the oil changed. 10000 points!!!


Thank you coffee. That helps.

what time should i be there with my bucket ,sponge and wrench? > just kidding guys I'm not worthy.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> Thank you coffee. That helps.
> 
> what time should i be there with my bucket ,sponge and wrench? > just kidding guys I'm not worthy.


You are worthy -- of a woman who will love you just for who you are.


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## coffee4me (Feb 6, 2013)

jld said:


> You are worthy -- of a woman who will love you just for who you are.


Ditto


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## firebelly1 (Jul 9, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> Don't know if some of you guys are aware, but I've found the point system to be a little bogus. You don't get points for everything. You may get one for a diamond ring and the same for a needed hug. They don't add up. They go away real quick and one, just one, "aw shyt", will wipe out all points.
> 
> Please correct where I am mistaken. Don't want to lead anyone astray.


When I say "points" I think of it more in terms of the Dr. Gottman rule of 5 positive interactions for every 1 negative. He says in order to have a successful relationship you need to have this, and in some sense, it's a point system. If your wife is telling you something and you don't seem to be getting where she's coming from (i.e. you think it's about the cleavage when it's really about her interaction with the other woman) then for her, that's a negative interaction with you. When you "get" her - verbalize in a way that she knows you understand why she's upset, that's a positive interaction for her.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

So, five "atta boy's" for every one "aw shyt"? That's what us old guys who were never college educated would say. 

What if I speak to her using my own words, what she just told me? Is that too mechanical even for starting out? Not word for word, but just a general kind of acknowledgement. I figure, at least she knows I heard her speaking, even if I don't understand.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

firebelly,

Are you ready to tackle harder stuff? 

Tough. Here goes. 

What kind of communication do you use when a woman comes up to you and just really uses her outside voice in a demeaning and insulting fashion? How do you approach a problem like that? I mean, she isn't going to tell you what is wrong. You will find out after she's berated and belittled you, telling you how horrible you are and shaming you almost to tears. 


What if she doesn't want to share all that happened because she is hiding things she feels guilty about and she just wants validation she is right, even when she is wrong, and you find out later? 

Personally, I'd confront her with the new information in a conversation at a time and place of my choosing, that was agreed upon by her. Then, I'd ask her about what we talked about in more detail. I'd bring up what I found to be untrue and ask if she forgot what happened. Now, that's a poor way to handle it, in my opinion. I have been burned giving the benefit of doubt, when it wasn't deserved. 

I changed how I ask and will just ask if she forgot something in a commanding voice, or I will just come out with a question the leads her to know that I know, depending on how well I know her. I think that's a way to get to the truth, when a normally truthful and loving woman is the recipient of that information.

I'm all for using embarrassment through truth. I used to be more gentle with my approach, but have learned that I can expect the same from a woman. I might as well talk her language.


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## coffee4me (Feb 6, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> What kind of communication do you use when a woman comes up to you and just really uses her outside voice in a demeaning and insulting fashion? How do you approach a problem like that? I mean, she isn't going to tell you what is wrong. You will find out after she's berated and belittled you, telling you how horrible you are and shaming you almost to tears.


To sum up the first and last part of this paragraph: What kind of communication do you use when someone berates, belittles, calls you names and shames you? 

My answer: no communication. I wouldn't have been around for any of it. I don't allow people to speak to me that way.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

That was firebelly's question. You cheated me out of satisfaction. :rofl: Just kidding. 

Thank you.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Trying to intervene to 'fix' a woman's problem she tells you about is a minefield. No point, no upside in trying to do that. Just nod along and agree that all those other bi^tches should die.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Runs like Dog said:


> Trying to intervene to 'fix' a woman's problem she tells you about is a minefield. No point, no upside in trying to do that. Just nod along and agree that all those other bi^tches should die.


Yep - I've found it's much better to only offer solutions or assistance upon request. Being consistent with that also decreases the frequency of hints.

Trusting someone to ask for help when it's needed enables them to feel more comfortable asking for help.


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## firebelly1 (Jul 9, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> What kind of communication do you use when a woman comes up to you and just really uses her outside voice in a demeaning and insulting fashion? How do you approach a problem like that? I mean, she isn't going to tell you what is wrong. You will find out after she's berated and belittled you, telling you how horrible you are and shaming you almost to tears.
> 
> 
> What if she doesn't want to share all that happened because she is hiding things she feels guilty about and she just wants validation she is right, even when she is wrong, and you find out later?
> ...


I think you have to address each issue one by one. First issue: that no matter what, it's not okay to talk to you with those words or that tone of voice. And I would have a conversation with her about that when you are both calm. You let her know what you will do the next time that happens: you will ask her to lower her voice and / or stop using attacking words and if she doesn't, you will leave the room. 

I'm having a hard time with the second part of your question. Sounds like you're saying she is yelling at you for something that she actually had a part in creating but she's not taking accountability for her part?

Embarrassing your partner on purpose isn't loving, in my book. If the justification is retaliation for her doing it to you, you are both responsible for your part in the dysfunction. i.e. you have a toxic marriage. Do you really want a relationship in which you are p*ssy whipped? I mean...some guys are into that...but are you one?


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

firebelly1 said:


> I think you have to address each issue one by one. First issue: that no matter what, it's not okay to talk to you with those words or that tone of voice. And I would have a conversation with her about that when you are both calm. You let her know what you will do the next time that happens: you will ask her to lower her voice and / or stop using attacking words and if she doesn't, you will leave the room.
> 
> I'm having a hard time with the second part of your question. Sounds like you're saying she is yelling at you for something that she actually had a part in creating but she's not taking accountability for her part?
> 
> Embarrassing your partner on purpose isn't loving, in my book. If the justification is retaliation for her doing it to you, you are both responsible for your part in the dysfunction. i.e. you have a toxic marriage. Do you really want a relationship in which you are p*ssy whipped? I mean...some guys are into that...but are you one?


On the accountability, yes, that's what I'm saying.

On the second one, I agree with the retaliation part, but don't understand the justification for the term p*ssy whipped.

However, I wonder if we treat those we engage with on a platonic level differently than those we are in a relationship with?


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Of course. In good ways and bad, without self regulation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## firebelly1 (Jul 9, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> On the accountability, yes, that's what I'm saying.
> 
> On the second one, I agree with the retaliation part, but don't understand the justification for the term p*ssy whipped.
> 
> However, I wonder if we treat those we engage with on a platonic level differently than those we are in a relationship with?


Often we treat those we are in platonic relationships with more politely and civilly than those we are in "relationship" with - that's not a good thing. That shouldn't be the way it is, in my book. 

If you feel the need to "get back" at your spouse, that in my mind is toxic. Better not to be in the relationship than let it get to that point. 

There's a thread about boundaries going right now - a woman who's husband is verbally abusive - and she has been describing how she has set her boundaries and the way that she responds now that is different than how she used to. You might want to read that thread. It's here:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/271169-picking-my-battles-getting-better-boundaries.html

Her therapist reminded her that she cannot change her husband, she can only change herself and the way she reacts to him. When he is verbally abusive, she walks away. He seems to be slowly learning to cut it out. I think that's your situation. It isn't about her needs and you learning to meet them; it's about you getting your need to be treated respectfully met.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

firebelly1 said:


> I agree. It would be MUCH better if women articulated that they want sympathy and not a solution to the problem. Would solve a lot of problems. As long as the man doesn't dismiss it as a waste of time, which happens too. For those women who aren't articulating it, it may be because they don't understand their own need enough to articulate it to their partner. So, it's also helpful if the man suspects that this is an issue, he ask her what she wants - problem solving or sympathy.


By the way, this is not solely an MBTI issue either, although of course women are more commonly Fs and men are more commonly Ts. My wife is an INTJ but I still have to consider this when she is complaining about something.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

firebelly1 said:


> Often we treat those we are in platonic relationships with more politely and civilly than those we are in "relationship" with - that's not a good thing. That shouldn't be the way it is, in my book.
> 
> If you feel the need to "get back" at your spouse, that in my mind is toxic. Better not to be in the relationship than let it get to that point.
> 
> ...


I'll have to check that out. Thank you. What I described was from recent history and not about either of my marriages, but could be about my first marriage. That thread might just help me with ordinary platonic relationships I find intolerable. So far, the books I've read have not been much help. It's partly a matter of not wanting to be passive aggressive in retaliation to passive aggression and partly not wanting to allow myself to be verbally abused by anyone, any more. I'm tired of it, to tell the truth. 

Thanks firebelly. By the way, why did you pick that username? Not my business, but I had to ask.


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## firebelly1 (Jul 9, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> Thanks firebelly. By the way, why did you pick that username? Not my business, but I had to ask.


In both my marriages I think what served me best was finally getting in touch with my own anger. I was not well treated by either of my exes but always felt like I deserved it. My anger was a sign that I didn't believe I deserved it anymore and allowed me to leave. So that's it in part. 

The other thing is that I notice when I am really decisive and strong, I feel that energy in my abdomen. Maybe sounds kinda woo-woo, but there you go.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

No, I didn't think woo-woo, but that made me laugh when I read it. I think you are doing well. Thanks.


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