# 'Man Up' 'No More Mr Nice Guy' falling across the line to ahole / grumpy ****** . . .



## jonny

I couldn't find this on the forum anywhere else. Hoping me asking helps others wondering / facing this as well.

I'm trying to be calm, confident, controlled, cool. But it's like resent comes in - maybe?? Resent of lack of sexual fulfillment, resent of her male friend, who knows.

I keep the confident, but I seem to go to - grumpy? Aholish?

"Jon - Can you install this mouse on my computer?"

"you're a big girl - do it yourself."

Where I want to say - sure - no problem. 

"Jon - why didn't you empty the dishwasher."

"I've done it the last 3 times - you're fully capable.:"

Where my normal reaction would be - sorry, I'll do it later.


But just an overall feeling of being grumpy towards her. grumpy all the time. STILL relying on her emotions / approval / satifaction / SEX.

Sex. crappy sex. My wife is hot - which makes this worse. I crave her when I watch her ass walk away from me. and I can't have her.


What's the answer? What do i need to push forward in my own trasformation without feeling like an *******.

or am I supposed to feel like an *******?

Thanks all.


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## greenpearl

Your situation is very similar to R2's. 

This is his thread, please read his thread first if you haven't! A lot of good men gave him very good advice. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18584-calling-all-men-i-need-your-help.html


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## greenpearl

I don't know your wife's personality!

In general, people are touched when the others are nice to them. If you stop doing things she wishes you to do, she will become more resentful of you! 

But how can you still maintain your manhood without letting her think she can run all over you, this is the tough part. 

I don't think silent treatment is good, it doesn't solve problems, it only means the misery is still there and it is lasting longer.

What works on me might not works on her. 

When I felt upset towards my husband, he would insist me talking to him, and he would insist telling me it was me who was wrong( he is good at reasoning). It was usually me who was wrong, I just didn't like to admit it! But after the fight, I would feel better and start to examine myself, and work on myself!


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## jonny

greenpearl said:


> I don't know your wife's personality!
> 
> In general, people are touched when the others are nice to them. If you stop doing things she wishes you to do, she will become more resentful of you!
> 
> But how can you still maintain your manhood without letting her think she can run all over you, this is the tough part.
> 
> I don't think silent treatment is good, it doesn't solve problems, it only means the misery is still there and it is lasting longer.
> 
> What works on me might not works on her.
> 
> When I felt upset towards my husband, he would insist me talking to him, and he would insist telling me it was me who was wrong( he is good at reasoning). It was usually me who was wrong, I just didn't like to admit it! But after the fight, I would feel better and start to examine myself, and work on myself!


Thanks for the links, and the words.

And from the sounds of it - you an my wife are very different.

You seem more open to you being in the wrong, more open to everything actually - and you have a libido. lol

She says she's working on the marriage - it's like I want to ask "how" 

But then, with all this man up talk . . . me even asking that shows I'm needy. Show's I'm weak. So best not to ask.

I'll keep reading, learning.

Thanks.


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## jonny

Sex. What should I do. Should I confront - say I'm not getting near enough, and I can't see myself living like this?

Or should I strike it out of my head and take it off the plate. I've seen it suggested. Get sexual thoughts out of my mind about my wife, squash them when they creep up - becasue ultimately - they end up with me being dissapointed, grumpy, resentful, mad and upset at the entire situation.

Upset that I didn't nip this Sh!t in the butt right from the get go. Upset that it wasn't a boundry that I enforced and communicated about.

Just kept thinking it would get better. Kept believing the words that it would get better.

Only to see me go to a floor mat , and as Big Bad Wolf predicts in that situation - the sex go to Zero. 

So.

Workout, work on myself. say screw it to sex. ( I have no idea how you accomplish this mentally. )

Or - who knows.

Sometimes I wish my wife were not attractive to me in the least - would make the sex thing so much easier. maybe.

But I also see it as a HUGE positive note that I want my wife sexually, am sexually attracted to her, fantasize about her etc.

I just wish she saw that as a positive. She doesn't like any talk about it. She doesn't like me grabbing her ass. She doesn't like any sexual Texts.

But maybes that's a boundry of mine - something I need to work towards in my life. Can I live without that flirtatiousness? That ability to be open about Want, desire and sexuality in general with my own damn wife?

I realize this post isn't Alpha Male in the least. It's Beta. It's frustrated, and I'm not in control on my resent / emotions on the topic right now.


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## greenpearl

jonny,

Few people like to admit they are wrong, but who is perfect? Who doesn't have issues that they have to work on? 

When she realizes what kind of person she is, what kind of good qualities she has, what kind of problems she has, then it will help her work on herself. 

So please help her understand herself. A person's personality usually has a lot to do with her or his up bringing, the experience she or he had!


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## greenpearl

jonny said:


> Sex. What should I do. Should I confront - say I'm not getting near enough, and I can't see myself living like this?
> 
> Or should I strike it out of my head and take it off the plate. I've seen it suggested. Get sexual thoughts out of my mind about my wife, squash them when they creep up - becasue ultimately - they end up with me being dissapointed, grumpy, resentful, mad and upset at the entire situation.
> 
> Upset that I didn't nip this Sh!t in the butt right from the get go. Upset that it wasn't a boundry that I enforced and communicated about.
> 
> Just kept thinking it would get better. Kept believing the words that it would get better.
> 
> Only to see me go to a floor mat , and as Big Bad Wolf predicts in that situation - the sex go to Zero.
> 
> So.
> 
> Workout, work on myself. say screw it to sex. ( I have no idea how you accomplish this mentally. )
> 
> Or - who knows.
> 
> Sometimes I wish my wife were not attractive to me in the least - would make the sex thing so much easier. maybe.
> 
> But I also see it as a HUGE positive note that I want my wife sexually, am sexually attracted to her, fantasize about her etc.
> 
> I just wish she saw that as a positive. She doesn't like any talk about it. She doesn't like me grabbing her ass. She doesn't like any sexual Texts.
> 
> But maybes that's a boundry of mine - something I need to work towards in my life. Can I live without that flirtatiousness? That ability to be open about Want, desire and sexuality in general with my own damn wife?
> 
> I realize this post isn't Alpha Male in the least. It's Beta. It's frustrated, and I'm not in control on my resent / emotions on the topic right now.


You said that she wants to work on this marriage, it means that she still wants to try and be with you!

It is important to work out the sex issue! 

Have you asked her why doesn't she like sex? Have you asked her what is bothering her? 

A woman can lose her sexual desire when she is bored or stressed, or you have been too easy for her! 

Sometimes it is important to let her know that she has to try harder so you will be around!


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## Deejo

jonny said:


> STILL relying on her emotions / approval / satifaction / SEX.
> 
> Sex. crappy sex. My wife is hot - which makes this worse. I crave her when I watch her ass walk away from me. and I can't have her.


What you have for a relationship right now isn't within sight of the horizon line of healthy.

It hurts to read this ... because I remember it.

This man? This person you think you are and the way he behaves? And these things that he thinks about, and he seeks from THIS woman? 

It's bad. It's broken. Extraordinarily broken.

Are you in therapy? I'm not saying that to be condescending or critical. I'm saying it because if you aren't, you should be. You need to develop some core strength. The core of you and who you are. Selfishness, entitlement, boundaries, self-respect. You need these things. You need someone to help you with them.

So you're wife goes about her business carrying on a conversation with another man, in your presence, with not so much as a f*cking iota of concern about it's appropriateness ... and then rubs your face in it by taunting with "are you going to be grumpy, every time I talk to Bob?"

Sometimes, I'm not about healthy, I'm about results. You need to start showing strength ... to and for yourself.

Your wife is never going to give unequivocal love, attention, and sex to this man you have become. Somewhere along the line you probably wondered how you got so lucky and questioned if you deserved this woman ... and somewhere along the line you convinced her of wondering the same thing.

Nothing changes if nothing changes. And the only thing that can change right now - is you.


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## credamdóchasgra

I think you can be calm and detached without being grumpy or snide.
Stay respectful...
"you're a big girl" is a little on the snide side, IMO,..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Atholk

The first thing you should do is get yourself in the best physical shape you can. Exercise will calm you and center you as well.

Start reading my blog in the link below. Start at the beginning and work your way through it.


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## jonny

credamdóchasgra said:


> I think you can be calm and detached without being grumpy or snide.
> Stay respectful...
> "you're a big girl" is a little on the snide side, IMO,..
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What would a few possible better responses be.
She never says please - So i will do the.

" You say please, and I'll do it. "

She puts up the binders on that when I say that.


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## jonny

Deejo said:


> What you have for a relationship right now isn't within sight of the horizon line of healthy.
> 
> It hurts to read this ... because I remember it.
> 
> This man? This person you think you are and the way he behaves? And these things that he thinks about, and he seeks from THIS woman?
> 
> It's bad. It's broken. Extraordinarily broken.
> 
> Are you in therapy? I'm not saying that to be condescending or critical. I'm saying it because if you aren't, you should be. You need to develop some core strength. The core of you and who you are. Selfishness, entitlement, boundaries, self-respect. You need these things. You need someone to help you with them.
> 
> So you're wife goes about her business carrying on a conversation with another man, in your presence, with not so much as a f*cking iota of concern about it's appropriateness ... and then rubs your face in it by taunting with "are you going to be grumpy, every time I talk to Bob?"
> 
> Sometimes, I'm not about healthy, I'm about results. You need to start showing strength ... to and for yourself.
> 
> Your wife is never going to give unequivocal love, attention, and sex to this man you have become. Somewhere along the line you probably wondered how you got so lucky and questioned if you deserved this woman ... and somewhere along the line you convinced her of wondering the same thing.
> 
> Nothing changes if nothing changes. And the only thing that can change right now - is you.


Thanks for the words Deejo - I highly respect you.

I will consider therapy more. It's like I want to do as much on my own first - i mean - I'm doing nothing , doing SOMETHING should help move me forward . . .

I'll respond more tomorrow from work when I have more alone time. 

I'll also reflect and think about things more.

J


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## jonny

greenpearl said:


> You said that she wants to work on this marriage, it means that she still wants to try and be with you!
> 
> It is important to work out the sex issue!
> 
> Have you asked her why doesn't she like sex? Have you asked her what is bothering her?
> 
> A woman can lose her sexual desire when she is bored or stressed, or you have been too easy for her!
> 
> Sometimes it is important to let her know that she has to try harder so you will be around!


We've had infertitilty issues, She's insecure of her gorgeous body, She's insecure of her pu$$y, her small breasts. She does seem bored, she's anxious, she WANTS what everyone else has - never happy with what she has. Everyone has an SUV, a bigger house, 2 kids etc.

So yeah - there are life pressures that affect her relaxation and abilty to get sexually stimulated.

As others point out - trying to be patient, understanding, nice, doing chores, helping has done **** all.

So - a change is needed. As deejo said - nothing changes if nothing changes.


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## jonny

Atholk said:


> The first thing you should do is get yourself in the best physical shape you can. Exercise will calm you and center you as well.
> 
> Start reading my blog in the link below. Start at the beginning and work your way through it.


Thanks - will do and will do.

I'm good looking. I know that. I've lost 25 lbs. I'm going to go down to abs.

I'm going to get a gym membership here soon once I figure out my financials.

Started reading 'Starting Strength' tonight for a workout program.

I'm motivated to look amazing. And motivated to really become Alpha in terms of using this body for what it's meant. To get stronger, to build. Our current lifestyles don't demand it like they used to. If you weren't strong, you didn't survive.

I'm going to make it part of me. The strongest survive.

And get more sex.

haha.

All talk no action till it happens.
Also - taking control of myself and going to get diagnosed for Adult ADD / ADHD. 

Watched the show " ADD and loving it."

great show.


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## jonny

Sorry to seem needy. That's ok here isn't it? HAHA.

Sex.

Just strike it from my life for awhile while I work on me?

Confront my lovely wife?

EDIT

Get it from somewhere else? haha. kidding. Though the thought has crossed my mind.


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## MEM2020

Jonny,
You can be as needy as you want "here". This is a "safe" place. You just can't be needy with her. 

That said - do you have children? If not - do NOT have children until you get to a place where she RESPECTS you. Sorry man - but right now I am not sure she does. And THAT is death to a marriage and to sex. 

Was your sex life good at the start? When did it fade/crash? Do you know why?

Does she "initiate" saying ILY, hugging you, doing nice things for you? 




jonny said:


> Sorry to seem needy. That's ok here isn't it? HAHA.
> 
> Sex.
> 
> Just strike it from my life for awhile while I work on me?
> 
> Confront my lovely wife?
> 
> EDIT
> 
> Get it from somewhere else? haha. kidding. Though the thought has crossed my mind.


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## jonny

Thanks. This is a cross post - I'm sorry, but some may not be looking at the other thread now.

I've decided tonight I need to say something about it if she's on the phone with him again. .

Something about her talking to this guy after, on Sunday, I told her I didn't think they had to communicate so much. She sees him at work everyday, texts him, and now talks on the phone to him? I told her I'm not worried about him - I'm worried about her.

Again - maybe I'm over-reacting.

But tonight, if she's talking on the phone to him when I get home again - 3rd day in a row after our 'talk' - I don't know what to do. I'm probably going to copy and paste this to my other topic I have going as well. 

She is showing she doesn't care about my feelings surrounding the issue. She is disrespecting me. It's like I want to tell her to cool it. cool it with this guy, and if she can't, that should be a red flag and she needs to think about that. If she can't respect me at the same time as having this 'friendship' - then we have a problem. 

It's like I want to say that - but am I in the right or am I justified in doing so?

I know at the top I said I need to say something if she's on the phone with him again. Maybe I should say something regardless.

This morning when I was with the dog. she said " Oh - you like the dog because she's the only one that listens to you in the house." I forget what I responded - something like " you're right." 

Oy.

Thanks for the post above. Being the solid Rock. Her the waves tumbling, faltering around it.


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## jonny

Or. I control myself, I say nothing, I document when I know they talk / interact - I don't let her on to it bugging me in the least - since She's obviously doing it on purpose after our talk on Sunday.

It's a dilemma. She goes against me knowingly. She mocks that with a " The dogs the only one that listens to you" - comment.

Do I push back, give her a reaction, tell her she's being disrespectful and hurtful.

Or do I act like it doesn't bug me. Which I'm not doing a great job of - I'm in a grumpy mood and not hiding it.


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## Conrad

Deejo said:


> What you have for a relationship right now isn't within sight of the horizon line of healthy.
> 
> It hurts to read this ... because I remember it.
> 
> This man? This person you think you are and the way he behaves? And these things that he thinks about, and he seeks from THIS woman?
> 
> It's bad. It's broken. Extraordinarily broken.
> 
> Are you in therapy? I'm not saying that to be condescending or critical. I'm saying it because if you aren't, you should be. You need to develop some core strength. The core of you and who you are. Selfishness, entitlement, boundaries, self-respect. You need these things. You need someone to help you with them.
> 
> So you're wife goes about her business carrying on a conversation with another man, in your presence, with not so much as a f*cking iota of concern about it's appropriateness ... and then rubs your face in it by taunting with "are you going to be grumpy, every time I talk to Bob?"
> 
> Sometimes, I'm not about healthy, I'm about results. You need to start showing strength ... to and for yourself.
> 
> Your wife is never going to give unequivocal love, attention, and sex to this man you have become. Somewhere along the line you probably wondered how you got so lucky and questioned if you deserved this woman ... and somewhere along the line you convinced her of wondering the same thing.
> 
> Nothing changes if nothing changes. And the only thing that can change right now - is you.


jonny,

I cannot say this any better.


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## Conrad

jonny said:


> Or. I control myself, I say nothing, I document when I know they talk / interact - I don't let her on to it bugging me in the least - since She's obviously doing it on purpose after our talk on Sunday.
> 
> It's a dilemma. She goes against me knowingly. She mocks that with a " The dogs the only one that listens to you" - comment.
> 
> Do I push back, give her a reaction, tell her she's being disrespectful and hurtful.
> 
> Or do I act like it doesn't bug me. Which I'm not doing a great job of - I'm in a grumpy mood and not hiding it.


jonny,

Seriously now - what were you like when she fell in love with you?


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## Deejo

Wow ...

I'm sure proper counsel would be to appropriately state that she is being disrespectful ... but she already Goddamn well knows shes being disrespectful.

Serious question, what exactly are you afraid of in throwing down with her?

Losing her? 
Her rejecting you? 

Both of those things are already taking place.

Grumpy? WTF? You should be pissed off.

You need a complete reset.

Disappear for a few days. Don't tell her. Don't call her. Don't take her calls. Don't talk to her. Stay at a hotel, stay with a friend, whatever. Taking this steps puts the ball in motion that you neither depend upon, nor need her to make a decision about your life. 

Obviously, you need to do the gut-check and decide what you are willing to do, and how far you are willing to go. 

We can suggest what you can do til we are blue in the face, but you are the one that needs to be able to execute it.

So, can you stand up to her? 

Or knowing yourself, does it come unraveled the moment it starts to get uncomfortable. Because honestly, there is no way around uncomfortable.

At it's worst, my relationship was never as openly disrespectful as yours is.


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## greenpearl

Deejo, 

I am not against this idea! 

But she might run to another man and seek emotional help. Will Jonny be able to handle it?

Or is it no use to try to work out with this woman since she is so disrespectful?


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## MarriedWifeInLove

While I agree that respect goes hand-in-hand and should be practiced and given/accepted by both spouses, you guys (and the I mean the men here), do realize that this macho, stick my chest out routine doesn't work on all women, right?

It's not a one size fits all mentality.

While some women will fall into line, be caught off guard, adjust their behavior, etc., others won't.

Sometimes the way it's posted on TAM by the men who strongly belief in the concept make it sound and feel disrespectful to women. I keep thinking of cavemen everytime I read any posts by MEM and BBW, it literally makes me cringe.

And I totally agree with greenpearl - she might not cave as expected, she might just run to another man who will provide her the emotional validation she seeks/needs.

While I in no way condone her behavior and believe that its disrespectful and a whole bunch of other names I can't say here, Him being aggressive, dismissive and cold/unfeeling, walking away, etc., doesn't always solve the problem either - it just may push her into the arms of someone else, but hey, maybe that's okay too.

Just my two cents worth.


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## seeking sanity

jonny, couple things:

- Being kind to your wife is not the same as being a push over/nice guy/wimp. Asking you to install a mouse isn't manipulation. Install the damn mouse. If she says hurtful, rude, disrespectful things to you, you confront her on it, in a dispassionate way. It sounds like you're a bit screwed up about the difference because of the other things going on.

- Absolutely you confront her about the other man. You say, "honey, I need to discuss something. You are talking with this other guy and it makes me uncomfortable. It feels like it could lead to cheating..." Don't expect the outcome you want, don't get emotional, but state your feelings.

- Consider reading the Calle Zorro Sexual Wife stuff, I think it's more appropriate here then the Nice guys stuff. You're wife is not having sex with you because you aren't connecting with her. Being a jerk isn't what's going to get her wet. Confidence, assertiveness, caring, and masculine strength will.


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## Deejo

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> While I agree that respect goes hand-in-hand and should be practiced and given/accepted by both spouses, you guys (and the I mean the men here), do realize that this macho, stick my chest out routine doesn't work on all women, right?


And this is exactly the point 'all women' fail to understand in these discussions.

It isn't about you. It isn't about Jonny's wife. It's about him.

MWIL, you are a living example of this dynamic and you don't see that? I find that nothing short of amazing.

Jonny's marriage will FAIL, if the status quo remains in place. He will feel rejected and marginalized ... his wife will leave him or have an affair and then leave him. 

I did this. I took these steps. For me. Did I want to save my marriage? Of course I did. But what happened along the journey is coming to the realization that the marriage I had, wasn't worth saving. And that, sad is it may be, is empowering.

He needs to value himself more than he values his wife. That is what creates balance. I think women just don't like what creating balance looks and sounds like. But if it's in place? No complaints.


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## seeking sanity

> He needs to value himself more than he values his wife. That is what creates balance. I think women just don't like what creating balance looks and sounds like. But if it's in place? No complaints.


This is an excellent point, though I don't neccessarly think women dislike it. A man's job is to lead. Dr Glover (Nice guy author) uses the analogy of a cake: A man's job is to create a good cake of a life - friends, direction, passion, exercise. The woman is the icing on the cake - the sweet stuff. 

Most women don't WANT to be the cake. They don't want the responsibility to fill the void in a man's life. They WANT to be the icing.

Make sense?

So jonny, you need to look at your life objectively? You're woman aside, is your life filled with things that fulfill you?


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## jonny

Conrad said:


> jonny,
> 
> Seriously now - what were you like when she fell in love with you?


Seriously Now? I forget. I do and I don't

I was positive, upbeat, always looking on the brightside. I believed that you control your moods, and you control whether you're positive or negative. Critical or non-judgemental. Content or the opposite.

I will say, looking back - all relationships followed the same pattern in terms of me being a door mat. Hell - All relationships follow that pattern for me - I mold around whomever I'm around. 

I'm in sales, I do well at sales - I can read people and their needs.

But my confidence in that is even diminishing.

I'm negative now, I look on the dark side, I envy, I want, I have jealousy for my peers and what they have. Instead of me believing " I can have that too. " - I have feelings of contempt and annoyance with those that have more than I do.

I try to stay positive, but I've become a victim - I've gone form saying "I control how I feel," to blaming someone else, my wife, for my slow descent into negativity.

I've always held in my feelings, I've always built up resent. I've avoided confrontation - I've done whatever possible to diffuse any situation that's not good - as fast as humanly possible. Either by apologizing or saying what the other person wants to hear - or Stonewalling. Becoming a statue, disconnecting from the situation, giving short 1 word responses that are sure to end a conversation . . . as it's no longer a conversation.

I've gone from a success personally. A person everyone looks up to in terms of attitude and advice. To someone that doesn't have the respect of the person I feel should respect me most.

My wife.

And in saying that - Myself.


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## jonny

Deejo said:


> Wow ...
> 
> I'm sure proper counsel would be to appropriately state that she is being disrespectful ... but she already Goddamn well knows shes being disrespectful.
> 
> Serious question, what exactly are you afraid of in throwing down with her?
> 
> Losing her?
> Her rejecting you?
> 
> Both of those things are already taking place.
> 
> Grumpy? WTF? You should be pissed off.
> 
> You need a complete reset.
> 
> Disappear for a few days. Don't tell her. Don't call her. Don't take her calls. Don't talk to her. Stay at a hotel, stay with a friend, whatever. Taking this steps puts the ball in motion that you neither depend upon, nor need her to make a decision about your life.
> 
> Obviously, you need to do the gut-check and decide what you are willing to do, and how far you are willing to go.
> 
> We can suggest what you can do til we are blue in the face, but you are the one that needs to be able to execute it.
> 
> So, can you stand up to her?
> 
> Or knowing yourself, does it come unraveled the moment it starts to get uncomfortable. Because honestly, there is no way around uncomfortable.
> 
> At it's worst, my relationship was never as openly disrespectful as yours is.


I'm going to think about what you're saying. Like I said before - your posts are great, and cause me to 'think'

I'll respond better after lunch.

As for disapeering. I have an amazing 3.5 year old son that's my world and can't leave. But maybe I can leave in a different way - once he's asleep just leave. Go do something, go out.

Come home, go to bed downstairs. ( Though this isn't uncommon for her - I do that on the weekends so I can play vid games after she goes to bed. )

She would flip if I left without telling her where I'm going. When I get back - she would ask and get mad if I would say just out.

Maybe it needs to be done. Maybe I need to create a situation where she gets mad at me, and respond with something such as. You don't respect me, yet you expect respect back? Saying that - that seems to stoop to her childish level. tit for tat. And might just escalate her pissing match with me.


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## Deejo

jonny said:


> I'm going to think about what you're saying. Like I said before - your posts are great, and cause me to 'think'
> 
> I'll respond better after lunch.
> 
> As for disapeering. I have an amazing 3.5 year old son that's my world and can't leave. But maybe I can leave in a different way - once he's asleep just leave. Go do something, go out.
> 
> Come home, go to bed downstairs. ( Though this isn't uncommon for her - I do that on the weekends so I can play vid games after she goes to bed. )
> 
> She would flip if I left without telling her where I'm going. When I get back - she would ask and get mad if I would say just out.
> 
> Maybe it needs to be done. Maybe I need to create a situation where she gets mad at me, and respond with something such as. You don't respect me, yet you expect respect back? Saying that - that seems to stoop to her childish level. tit for tat. And might just escalate her pissing match with me.


If I had to encapsulate my overall advice to you, it would be this: Stop talking about what and how you feel. Start doing, or not doing ... take actions to change what you feel.

I think SeekingSanity's advice was excellent. Don't stop doing what you feel compelled to do as the right or appropriate thing. But you do not need to do so while also acting as a verbal or emotional punching bag.

I retract my disappear, without notice statement. I wasn't aware you had a child. Find your own space, one that removes some of the anxiety of dealing with all of this.


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## jonny

Deejo said:


> If I had to encapsulate my overall advice to you, it would be this: Stop talking about what and how you feel. Start doing, or not doing ... take actions to change what you feel.
> 
> I think SeekingSanity's advice was excellent. Don't stop doing what you feel compelled to do as the right or appropriate thing. But you do not need to do so while also acting as a verbal or emotional punching bag.
> 
> I retract my disappear, without notice statement. I wasn't aware you had a child. Find your own space, one that removes some of the anxiety of dealing with all of this.


I know you can't tell me what to do - I know you can give me your recommendations and your thoughts - and I appreciate them.

ALL OF YOU - I appreciate all the input.

So - what I'm asking may not have an answer. with the stop talking about my feelings. taking actions or not taking actions. Does this apply to this man situation as well?

I've got no fear of her having a physical affair with this guy at this point. Again - Him and I have developed a good relationship - I'm in sales and can get anyone to open up in my opinion. He's shorter than me, and he's obviously a beta / people pleaser as well - Actually - he's scarily like me in terms of personality. Which I'll try and see as positive and take as a compliment. haha.

Anyway - I'm thinking sit on it for now. Not quit digging, not putting my guard down - but not saying anything, and doing my best not to let it affect me in front of her - or if it does - not letting on.

I'll go to the gym in the next couple days and buy a membership.

I've been reading a book in front of her called " Secrets of happily married husbands. " Really focus's on men being men and that's what they are - and how therapy can destroy relationships, etc. But It's like I'm doing it for her to see I'm working on my relationship with her - even if she doesn't. Maybe it's time for me to put that book away - not let her see me reading anything on relationship fixing. And read something else.

Maybe a book on how to kill a man with your bare hands?
lol

" Kill the 'other man' in your wifes life "

Wife - what are you reading?
Me - Oh - just a fictional novel - it's quite good.

Further to this - should I replace her sleeping pills with high doseage caffeine pills so maybe she'll think she's losing sleep over what she's doing? 

Kidding.

I doubt the pills look the same.


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove

Deejo said:


> And this is exactly the point 'all women' fail to understand in these discussions.
> 
> It isn't about you. It isn't about Jonny's wife. It's about him.
> 
> MWIL, you are a living example of this dynamic and you don't see that? I find that nothing short of amazing.
> 
> Jonny's marriage will FAIL, if the status quo remains in place. He will feel rejected and marginalized ... his wife will leave him or have an affair and then leave him.
> 
> I did this. I took these steps. For me. Did I want to save my marriage? Of course I did. But what happened along the journey is coming to the realization that the marriage I had, wasn't worth saving. And that, sad is it may be, is empowering.
> 
> He needs to value himself more than he values his wife. That is what creates balance. I think women just don't like what creating balance looks and sounds like. But if it's in place? No complaints.


So that we don't hijack his thread, you are more than welcome to PM me and we can man-up and woman-up discuss this.

In the meantime, my last input is this: I agree this is about him - but what part of it requires that he stick his chest out, get his N.U.T.S. in a wad and beat on his chest like a caveman? So in other words, you can't be a man unless you treat your wife like an a**hole.

My husband is not a wimp, far from it - but I respect him nonetheless as my husband and a man and he doesn't have to drag me around by my hair to get that from me.

Setting boundaries yes - acting like a neanderthal no - there is a difference and THAT I do understand.


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove

seeking sanity said:


> This is an excellent point, though I don't neccessarly think women dislike it. A man's job is to lead. Dr Glover (Nice guy author) uses the analogy of a cake: A man's job is to create a good cake of a life - friends, direction, passion, exercise. The woman is the icing on the cake - the sweet stuff.
> 
> Most women don't WANT to be the cake. They don't want the responsibility to fill the void in a man's life. They WANT to be the icing.
> 
> Make sense?
> 
> So jonny, you need to look at your life objectively? You're woman aside, is your life filled with things that fulfill you?


He does need to value himself - first anf foremost - I couldn't agree more.

But, in the process does he need to devalue his wife?

She's disrespectful, I agree, we all agree - deal with that, don't turn it into a Johnny Walker, Texas Ranger or Sylvester Stallone Rambo type situation.

Geez, while I love you guys, it would be a race to see who got who first if I was married to one of you!


----------



## Deejo

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> So that we don't hijack his thread, you are more than welcome to PM me and we can man-up and woman-up discuss this.
> 
> In the meantime, my last input is this: I agree this is about him - but what part of it requires that he stick his chest out, get his N.U.T.S. in a wad and beat on his chest like a caveman? So in other words, you can't be a man unless you treat your wife like an a**hole.
> 
> My husband is not a wimp, far from it - but I respect him nonetheless as my husband and a man and he doesn't have to drag me around by my hair to get that from me.
> 
> Setting boundaries yes - acting like a neanderthal no - there is a difference and THAT I do understand.


You are far more outwardly expressive about what you want from your marriage than your husband is, and despite your expressiveness, he is unresponsive. Would you disagree? 

I'm only responding in-thread because it is on topic.

Same principle. He is far more expressive about what he wants and expects from the relationship, and it isn't working. The suggestion about value has nothing to do with being a pr!ck or disrespectful. 

It is about emphasizing meeting his own needs more, and prioritizing hers less. 

My biggest changes came about when I stopped expecting, and making my spouse responsible for my happiness.

I'm not suggesting this will work in all cases, but I'm willing to bet a limb that it will help Jonny.


----------



## AFEH

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> He does need to value himself - first anf foremost - I couldn't agree more.
> 
> But, in the process does he need to devalue his wife?
> 
> She's disrespectful, I agree, we all agree - deal with that, don't turn it into a Johnny Walker, Texas Ranger or Sylvester Stallone Rambo type situation.
> 
> Geez, while I love you guys, it would be a race to see who got who first if I was married to one of you!


MWIL,
I’m not quite an ex codependent but I know a lot about it and as it’s a habit of a lifetime for me it is a hard habit to break. But I’ll get there.

But what is the essence of a being a codependent? For me it’s a person who tolerates certain behaviour they don’t like from their spouse but at the same time tries to change the very behaviour from their spouse that they don’t like but tolerate. Perhaps let that sink in for a bit.

In a way the above is an honourable thing to do. The OP is giving his wife many opportunities to meet his needs to be happy in his marriage. But guess what? She’s not responding in a healthy way and she seems pretty determined for whatever reason not to meet his needs in his marriage. In fact she does the opposite of what he asks her to do. Just how many opportunities to change is the OP supposed to give his wife? He is immensely let down by the woman he loves and married.

What the men here are trying to say is 1) Do not tolerate the behaviour you don’t like because it just gets more of the same and 2) Do not ever try and change the person you are married to because that’s a futile way ahead and just gets more of the same.

And it’s not about turning into a Rambo or any such thing. N.U.T.s. are just a very calm intolerance of specific intolerable behaviour from a spouse that until the present has always been tolerated. And in that way, the intolerance brings about a massive change in the dynamics between the two spouses. It is massive change and one never to be underestimated. The OP will become a different person and his wife will see him as a different person. Of course, how she responds to that different person is entirely up to her!

But in the way she responds the OP will learn one heck of a lot about the true and real nature of his wife! And he will more than likely have difficulty accepting it for the truth that it is and adjusting to it.

But something else happens as well. Well it did in my situation. When you stop trying to change your spouse but instead you just don’t tolerate certain behaviour anymore you see your spouse as the person they really are and not the person you are trying to make them be! And this “reality of the person we are spending our life with” is perhaps seen for the very first time.

If they continue with the behaviour we have decided to no longer tolerate then we have a big life changing decision to make. And that decision is “Do I continue with my marriage by going back and tolerating the behaviour from my spouse I don’t want to tolerate, knowing now what the future will be for the rest of my married life? Or do I divorce and find a new partner who will meet my essential needs from a partner just by being who they are!”

Bob


----------



## jonny

Thanks again everyone for responses.

Number 1 - I don't know if the difference between ahole / grump and Alpha male / confident male was discussed much - I'm bad with remembering what I just read.

Anyway - I'm a man. And a list will help. Something I can carry with me - Look at often, re-center myself with, re-compose myself and focus myself with.

So - this situation, my life, this male friend of hers. I need to calm down.

1. Calm - Serene - Breathe. Think of a Calm Lake.
2. Controlled - Control your emotions. Be the Solid rock - she's the waves that crash and tumble around it - those waves can hit as hard as they want, but don't move you in this time of change.
3. Controlled - control your voice, your attitude, your demeanor, your facial expressions. Do not scowl, do not get snappy.

Hows it's looking so far? 

Suggested additions are very welcome!

Need to make one on confidence.


----------



## Conrad

jonny said:


> Seriously Now? I forget. I do and I don't
> 
> I was positive, upbeat, always looking on the brightside. I believed that you control your moods, and you control whether you're positive or negative. Critical or non-judgemental. Content or the opposite.
> 
> I will say, looking back - all relationships followed the same pattern in terms of me being a door mat. Hell - All relationships follow that pattern for me - I mold around whomever I'm around.
> 
> I'm in sales, I do well at sales - I can read people and their needs.
> 
> But my confidence in that is even diminishing.
> 
> I'm negative now, I look on the dark side, I envy, I want, I have jealousy for my peers and what they have. Instead of me believing " I can have that too. " - I have feelings of contempt and annoyance with those that have more than I do.
> 
> I try to stay positive, but I've become a victim - I've gone form saying "I control how I feel," to blaming someone else, my wife, for my slow descent into negativity.
> 
> I've always held in my feelings, I've always built up resent. I've avoided confrontation - I've done whatever possible to diffuse any situation that's not good - as fast as humanly possible. Either by apologizing or saying what the other person wants to hear - or Stonewalling. Becoming a statue, disconnecting from the situation, giving short 1 word responses that are sure to end a conversation . . . as it's no longer a conversation.
> 
> I've gone from a success personally. A person everyone looks up to in terms of attitude and advice. To someone that doesn't have the respect of the person I feel should respect me most.
> 
> My wife.
> 
> And in saying that - Myself.


jonny,

What would it take to "be that man" again?

It clearly doesn't require your wife, as you were that man BEFORE you met her.


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove

AFEH said:


> MWIL,
> I’m not quite an ex codependent but I know a lot about it and as it’s a habit of a lifetime for me it is a hard habit to break. But I’ll get there.
> 
> But what is the essence of a being a codependent? For me it’s a person who tolerates certain behaviour they don’t like from their spouse but at the same time tries to change the very behaviour from their spouse that they don’t like but tolerate. Perhaps let that sink in for a bit.
> 
> In a way the above is an honourable thing to do. The OP is giving his wife many opportunities to meet his needs to be happy in his marriage. But guess what? She’s not responding in a healthy way and she seems pretty determined for whatever reason not to meet his needs in his marriage. In fact she does the opposite of what he asks her to do. Just how many opportunities to change is the OP supposed to give his wife? He is immensely let down by the woman he loves and married.
> 
> What the men here are trying to say is 1) Do not tolerate the behaviour you don’t like because it just gets more of the same and 2) Do not ever try and change the person you are married to because that’s a futile way ahead and just gets more of the same.
> 
> And it’s not about turning into a Rambo or any such thing. N.U.T.s. are just a very calm intolerance of specific intolerable behaviour from a spouse that until the present has always been tolerated. And in that way, the intolerance brings about a massive change in the dynamics between the two spouses. It is massive change and one never to be underestimated. The OP will become a different person and his wife will see him as a different person. Of course, how she responds to that different person is entirely up to her!
> 
> But in the way she responds the OP will learn one heck of a lot about the true and real nature of his wife! And he will more than likely have difficulty accepting it for the truth that it is and adjusting to it.
> 
> But something else happens as well. Well it did in my situation. When you stop trying to change your spouse but instead you just don’t tolerate certain behaviour anymore you see your spouse as the person they really are and not the person you are trying to make them be! And this “reality of the person we are spending our life with” is perhaps seen for the very first time.
> 
> If they continue with the behaviour we have decided to no longer tolerate then we have a big life changing decision to make. And that decision is “Do I continue with my marriage by going back and tolerating the behaviour from my spouse I don’t want to tolerate, knowing now what the future will be for the rest of my married life? Or do I divorce and find a new partner who will meet my essential needs from a partner just by being who they are!”
> 
> Bob



And I don't disagree with a single thing you said, believe it or not. 

But its portrayed by many on TAM as an aggressive, beat my chest, show my chest hair, I'm a man way of behaving.

The way you've laid it out is more succinct, values both spouses and respects not only his boundaries, but is cognizant of hers as well. This makes more sense and "feels" better to me - as a woman.

I get sick and tired of hearing it phrased in an aggressive manner. As I've said, one size doesn't fit all.

And, speaking of the co-dependent issue, yes, I probably have issues there. But not liking a spouse's behavior and choosing what is/is not a deal breaker does not a co-dependent make.

There are compromises in every relationship, including marriage. You take the good with the bad. You make a list - this is good, this is bad. What is a big deal or deal breaker on the bad list and what is not.

I have made decisions in my marriage that are "right for me." Doesn't mean anyone has to agree with them or like them, but they are "right for me." Just as their decisions are "right for them."

So agree to disagree, but don't judge...I guess that's my main point - a lot of "judging" takes place, maybe a little more acceptance and understanding would work as well.

But I get you loud and clear and I hope it works out for him and his wife, if not, then maybe he'll be better off.

Thanks for clarifying, now back to his thread...


----------



## moonangel

I'm getting a headache from reading this problem because it just seems to go in circles. It's almost like you enjoy it. I know you're here to seek help but I'm not feeling it.

Can both of you just sit down and talk about your feelings to each other? I find that works best.

...and her talking to Bob...I don't even know how you can just stand there and let her. My husband would not even allow it and vice versa. But the thing with me is if he talks to another girl, he knows I'm out. I'm not going to play dumb about things like that. Luckily that's the last thing on his mind. Why are you so scared to man up to things like that? I really don't get that.


----------



## AFEH

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> And I don't disagree with a single thing you said, believe it or not.
> 
> But its portrayed by many on TAM as an aggressive, beat my chest, show my chest hair, I'm a man way of behaving.
> 
> The way you've laid it out is more succinct, values both spouses and respects not only his boundaries, but is cognizant of hers as well. This makes more sense and "feels" better to me - as a woman.
> 
> I get sick and tired of hearing it phrased in an aggressive manner. As I've said, one size doesn't fit all.
> 
> And, speaking of the co-dependent issue, yes, I probably have issues there. But not liking a spouse's behavior and choosing what is/is not a deal breaker does not a co-dependent make.
> 
> There are compromises in every relationship, including marriage. You take the good with the bad. You make a list - this is good, this is bad. What is a big deal or deal breaker on the bad list and what is not.
> 
> I have made decisions in my marriage that are "right for me." Doesn't mean anyone has to agree with them or like them, but they are "right for me." Just as their decisions are "right for them."
> 
> So agree to disagree, but don't judge...I guess that's my main point - a lot of "judging" takes place, maybe a little more acceptance and understanding would work as well.
> 
> But I get you loud and clear and I hope it works out for him and his wife, if not, then maybe he'll be better off.
> 
> Thanks for clarifying, now back to his thread...


I think we all have different levels of tolerance and different things that we either do or don’t tolerate. And yes it is all a balance of good and bad. The problem comes when the good outweighs the bad. What one person thinks as crazy behaviour another can see no wrong with. Life is indeed subjective in these things.

And Jonny’s obviously struggling to know what is acceptable behaviour from his wife and what is unacceptable behaviour. I think he is looking for the “norm” whatever that is.

And someone like me who may have tolerated certain things for years see that there’s never going to be any change and we finally accept that. And then when we do finally become intolerant our spouse can’t handle it because their behaviour has become their way of life in the marriage.

Jonny’s wife may well be in that same situation. If she can’t get to him in the way she’s always got to him and manipulated his emotions because her behaviour is no longer effective, she may well be the one to leave the marriage.

But Jonny wont know that, it’ll never come to a head until he has clearly defined personal boundaries on what he will tolerate and what he won’t tolerate from his wife. And it is indeed a pity that married people find themselves in these situations where there is a need to be intolerant of certain behaviour.

Bob


----------



## BigBadWolf

There is much to say on exactly what you are asking.

This thread, it is touching on many issues however, and easy to get focused on any of the many facets of all this.

To make this simple? I will try to suggest these things.

Ahole grump, etc. ? Do not worry so much about this. A man, you may see some suggestions as just this, but understand, a woman, she is FAR more forgiving for a man she is interested in to be an "ahole" or arrogant or any such thing. Look around to see how "arrogant" or "ahole" men fair with women. A woman, she will be FAR more forgiving than you will be yourself, for sure. 

What does this mean? It means not to worry about being "too much" arrogant or "ahole" or similar. 

It is similar to worry about earning "too much" money, or being "too happy." 

IN your situation, MUCH more danger to continue to be "not enough" of these things. 

And confidence? All these tings, to make a list, would be a mile long.

Instead, try this.

All changes to yourself (or anyone really), must start with a vision.

Then, you make the corrections to take away what does not contribute to that vision, and corrections to add what does indeed contribute to that vision.

So this vision, is really about how you see yourself.

Imagine the vision, that you are the man that is 1000 times the man of this other man your wife is talking to. How would you then act and behave?

Imagine the vision, that you are such the provider and good husband and good father, that any woman would be the luckiest woman in the world to be with you and call you her man. How would you then act and behave?

Imagine the vision, that out of over 3 billion (thats "billion" with a b!!!!!) women on this earth, that your one out of 3 billion other women is this luckiest woman, and you are expecting her to treat you with the respect you deserve. How would you then act and behave, and expect her to act and behave to you?

Similar, imagine the vision, that you are the man that can have ANY woman you desire of the 3 billion women on this earth, and out of all these women, you have chosen your wife. How would you then act and behave to her, particularly concerning your own sexual desires and fantasies?

So in this way, on one hand, yes, the arrogance and ego, there is nothing to argue it is over the top.

The irony, is that these kinds of displays of actions, behaviors, and attitude, for a woman to be sexually on fire for her man, must be driven by exactly this kind of ego.

So a woman, she is not only "forgiving" this kind of "ahole" or "grump", on many levels she is absolutely EXPECTING to see this kind of fire from her man. 

And this fire, is indeed stoked by ego, arrogance, and this kind of vision.

Your ego, as a man, do not dismiss it. Instead, embrace it!






jonny said:


> Thanks again everyone for responses.
> 
> Number 1 - I don't know if the difference between ahole / grump and Alpha male / confident male was discussed much - I'm bad with remembering what I just read.
> 
> Anyway - I'm a man. And a list will help. Something I can carry with me - Look at often, re-center myself with, re-compose myself and focus myself with.
> 
> So - this situation, my life, this male friend of hers. I need to calm down.
> 
> 1. Calm - Serene - Breathe. Think of a Calm Lake.
> 2. Controlled - Control your emotions. Be the Solid rock - she's the waves that crash and tumble around it - those waves can hit as hard as they want, but don't move you in this time of change.
> 3. Controlled - control your voice, your attitude, your demeanor, your facial expressions. Do not scowl, do not get snappy.
> 
> Hows it's looking so far?
> 
> Suggested additions are very welcome!
> 
> Need to make one on confidence.


----------



## greenpearl

jonny said:


> Seriously Now? I forget. I do and I don't
> 
> I was positive, upbeat, always looking on the brightside. I believed that you control your moods, and you control whether you're positive or negative. Critical or non-judgemental. Content or the opposite.
> 
> I will say, looking back - all relationships followed the same pattern in terms of me being a door mat. Hell - All relationships follow that pattern for me - I mold around whomever I'm around.
> 
> I'm in sales, I do well at sales - I can read people and their needs.
> 
> But my confidence in that is even diminishing.
> 
> I'm negative now, I look on the dark side, I envy, I want, I have jealousy for my peers and what they have. Instead of me believing " I can have that too. " - I have feelings of contempt and annoyance with those that have more than I do.
> 
> I try to stay positive, but I've become a victim - I've gone form saying "I control how I feel," to blaming someone else, my wife, for my slow descent into negativity.
> 
> I've always held in my feelings, I've always built up resent. I've avoided confrontation - I've done whatever possible to diffuse any situation that's not good - as fast as humanly possible. Either by apologizing or saying what the other person wants to hear - or Stonewalling. Becoming a statue, disconnecting from the situation, giving short 1 word responses that are sure to end a conversation . . . as it's no longer a conversation.
> 
> I've gone from a success personally. A person everyone looks up to in terms of attitude and advice. To someone that doesn't have the respect of the person I feel should respect me most.
> 
> My wife.
> 
> And in saying that - Myself.


Jonny, 

I am reading this book, it is a great book, called HAPPY AT LAST. 

The psychiatrist said that bus drivers are happier than stock brokers. Because bus drivers' salary is similar to each other, when they compare, no one is feeling much superior, and they make more money by overworking, stock brokers can be very different because their salary is determined by their performance and intelligence, so even the average stock brokers are making much more money than a bus driver, they won't be happy since their friends might make more than them. People usually compare themselves to others they know and associate with( here means co-workers, friends, and old classmates)

Now people are under a lot of stress, the stress they have brings depression and anxiety; people are feeling insecure since their jobs are constantly been threatened, when we don't have security, we don't have happiness. People are working over time so they can have a nice life style, but they forget that they are sacrificing their time with their family. Is it a better life style? 

How can we let go of ourselves and stop comparing ourselves with other people? 

I am not envy of people who have a lot of money, I just feel, the more money they have, they more stress they have, I don't like to be stressed. Rich people's happiness level isn't higher than average people since they also have family problems, financial problems, work stress, and a lot of other problems! 

Material stuff bought by money can only give us temporary happy feeling, after some time, it is gone and we want more. 

Keep on wanting more will never make us content. We are happy when we are content! 

Off topic, but sometimes we only focus on our marriage problems, we forget that it is our unhappy inner side affecting our marriage!


----------



## Conrad

moonangel said:


> I'm getting a headache from reading this problem because it just seems to go in circles. It's almost like you enjoy it. I know you're here to seek help but I'm not feeling it.
> 
> Can both of you just sit down and talk about your feelings to each other? I find that works best.
> 
> ...and her talking to Bob...I don't even know how you can just stand there and let her. My husband would not even allow it and vice versa. But the thing with me is if he talks to another girl, he knows I'm out. I'm not going to play dumb about things like that. Luckily that's the last thing on his mind. Why are you so scared to man up to things like that? I really don't get that.


Angel,

What would you do if that was happening and you wanted it to stop. You suddenly realized you were on the wrong path and you didn't want to throw out any babies in your bathwater?


----------



## moonangel

Conrad said:


> Angel,
> 
> What would you do if that was happening and you wanted it to stop. You suddenly realized you were on the wrong path and you didn't want to throw out any babies in your bathwater?


It's very easy, Conrad. I'd leave. I don't live my life making excuses for everything. If something felt wrong, I'd bring it up and talk about it. Not me doing all the talking but listening to him and see where he's coming from and try to understand him as well. I'd expect the same in return. If the talk didn't work, I wouldn't waste my time trying to fix it. I'd move on. 

But the talking to someone else on the phone part. I wouldn't waste time trying to fix that. It would have been clear in the beginning that, that was a no no and if done, then I'm out the door for good. 

Sorry, but I have self-respect.


----------



## Conrad

moonangel said:


> It's very easy, Conrad. I'd leave. I don't live my life making excuses for everything. If something felt wrong, I'd bring it up and talk about it. Not me doing all the talking but listening to him and see where he's coming from and try to understand him as well. I'd expect the same in return. If the talk didn't work, I wouldn't waste my time trying to fix it. I'd move on.
> 
> But the talking to someone else on the phone part. I wouldn't waste time trying to fix that. It would have been clear in the beginning that, that was a no no and if done, then I'm out the door for good.
> 
> Sorry, but I have self-respect.


I would echo what Deejo says. This isn't you jonny is talking about.

I think it's great that you respect yourself in that way. But, clearly, jonny needs to work on himself in that area.

Leaving a marriage (for a man) is a very costly endeavor. I don't think there's any harm in working on oneself and seeing how things look before making huge decisions.

That's really all that's being recommended.

Do you see something different?


----------



## greenpearl

moonangel said:


> It's very easy, Conrad. I'd leave. I don't live my life making excuses for everything. If something felt wrong, I'd bring it up and talk about it. Not me doing all the talking but listening to him and see where he's coming from and try to understand him as well. I'd expect the same in return. If the talk didn't work, I wouldn't waste my time trying to fix it. I'd move on.
> 
> But the talking to someone else on the phone part. I wouldn't waste time trying to fix that. It would have been clear in the beginning that, that was a no no and if done, then I'm out the door for good.
> 
> Sorry, but I have self-respect.


Here we are similar! 

I don't let other people be disrespectful towards me. 

When I sensed that the man didn't care much for me, I dumped him right away or I really didn't feel much pain when I got dumped by the man. I don't let myself hurt myself, I don't give other people more opportunities to hurt me! 

But when people are married, the situation becomes more difficult, how can we be so decisive? We can't just walk out of a marriage. And if we can't solve our problem here, we might have problems somewhere else, just different problems. 

How do we make sure that we don't make same kind of mistakes again, and how do we make sure we have a better chance in the future?


----------



## moonangel

Conrad said:


> I would echo what Deejo says. This isn't you jonny is talking about.
> 
> I think it's great that you respect yourself in that way. But, clearly, jonny needs to work on himself in that area.
> 
> Leaving a marriage (for a man) is a very costly endeavor. I don't think there's any harm in working on oneself and seeing how things look before making huge decisions.
> 
> That's really all that's being recommended.
> 
> Do you see something different?


You asked what I would do, didn't you?

I know that Jonny has low self-esteem. He needs to work on that first instead of trying to do whatever he can to keep his wife. It's like he's covering it up with more things he doesn't agree with...circles. What's so wrong with telling her your true feelings without getting angry. Just talk. Cry. Show your feelings. Geesh. It's not like you have to be a robot. You're human. Doesn't matter if you are a man or a woman. If the higher powers didn't want you to have feelings, he'd of made you a tree.


----------



## moonangel

greenpearl said:


> Here we are similar!
> 
> I don't let other people be disrespectful towards me.
> 
> When I sensed that the man didn't care much for me, I dumped him right away or I really didn't feel much pain when I got dumped by the man. I don't let myself hurt myself, I don't give other people more opportunities to hurt me!
> 
> But when people are married, the situation becomes more difficult, how can we be so decisive? We can't just walk out of a marriage. And if we can't solve our problem here, we might have problems somewhere else, just different problems.
> 
> How do we make sure that we don't make same kind of mistakes again, and how do we make sure we have a better chance in the future?


I understand the situation isn't easy. Nothing one takes to heart is ever easy but sometimes decisions have to be made and sometimes those decisions aren't pretty and fluffy.

Learn from past mistakes. Learn from the bad cycles.


----------



## OhGeesh

moonangel said:


> You asked what I would do, didn't you?
> 
> I know that Jonny has low self-esteem. He needs to work on that first instead of trying to do whatever he can to keep his wife. It's like he's covering it up with more things he doesn't agree with...circles. What's so wrong with telling her your true feelings without getting angry. Just talk. Cry. Show your feelings. Geesh. It's not like you have to be a robot. You're human. Doesn't matter if you are a man or a woman. If the higher powers didn't want you to have feelings, he'd of made you a tree.


This is how I feel be real.


----------



## AFEH

moonangel said:


> You asked what I would do, didn't you?
> 
> I know that Jonny has low self-esteem. He needs to work on that first instead of trying to do whatever he can to keep his wife. It's like he's covering it up with more things he doesn't agree with...circles. What's so wrong with telling her your true feelings without getting angry. Just talk. Cry. Show your feelings. Geesh. It's not like you have to be a robot. You're human. Doesn't matter if you are a man or a woman. If the higher powers didn't want you to have feelings, he'd of made you a tree.


It's surprising how the self-esteem ramps up when one doesn't take the crap anymore. When one becomes intolerant. You mean I've been hugging trees and they didn't feel it!


----------



## Conrad

OhGeesh said:


> This is how I feel be real.


What if your current "real" is needy beyond all belief?


----------



## jonny

moonangel said:


> I'm getting a headache from reading this problem because it just seems to go in circles. It's almost like you enjoy it. I know you're here to seek help but I'm not feeling it.
> 
> Can both of you just sit down and talk about your feelings to each other? I find that works best.
> 
> ...and her talking to Bob...I don't even know how you can just stand there and let her. My husband would not even allow it and vice versa. But the thing with me is if he talks to another girl, he knows I'm out. I'm not going to play dumb about things like that. Luckily that's the last thing on his mind. Why are you so scared to man up to things like that? I really don't get that.


Re : sitting down and talking.

I've tried. It doesn't work.

Opening up - pouring out feelings - I tried that to. It was an all out cry / blah fest. At first I thought it worked, I thought me breaking down my walls worked.

it didn't. It's like it was just used as a weapon against me.

It's like I lost respect by doing that.

Which echos what is said here by guys such as deejo, conrad and the big bad wolf.

Enough is enough.

I don't deserve this sh!t.


----------



## jonny

Conrad said:


> jonny,
> 
> What would it take to "be that man" again?
> 
> It clearly doesn't require your wife, as you were that man BEFORE you met her.


to the point.

powerful.

and , well - revealing / scary at the same time.


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove

moonangel said:


> It's very easy, Conrad. I'd leave. I don't live my life making excuses for everything. If something felt wrong, I'd bring it up and talk about it. Not me doing all the talking but listening to him and see where he's coming from and try to understand him as well. I'd expect the same in return. If the talk didn't work, I wouldn't waste my time trying to fix it. I'd move on.
> 
> But the talking to someone else on the phone part. I wouldn't waste time trying to fix that. It would have been clear in the beginning that, that was a no no and if done, then I'm out the door for good.
> 
> Sorry, but I have self-respect.


I'm glad somebody has self-respect, mine seems to have been thrown out with the babies and the bathwater (thanks Conrad).


----------



## moonangel

jonny said:


> Re : sitting down and talking.
> 
> I've tried. It doesn't work.
> 
> Opening up - pouring out feelings - I tried that to. It was an all out cry / blah fest. At first I thought it worked, I thought me breaking down my walls worked.
> 
> it didn't. It's like it was just used as a weapon against me.
> 
> It's like I lost respect by doing that.
> 
> Which echos what is said here by guys such as deejo, conrad and the big bad wolf.
> 
> Enough is enough.
> 
> I don't deserve this sh!t.


GOOD. Then you'll be single soon.


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove

moonangel said:


> GOOD. Then you'll be single soon.


Okay, a little harsh.

Sounds like he wants to man-up and work on his marriage.

Not just man-up and walk out.

Admirable for those of us with husbands that would just as soon as have the screen door hit their a**es on the way out then stay and "try" to work things out.


----------



## OhGeesh

Best of luck!! I suggest marriage counseling!!


----------



## moonangel

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Okay, a little harsh.
> 
> Sounds like he wants to man-up and work on his marriage.
> 
> Not just man-up and walk out.
> 
> Admirable for those of us with husbands that would just as soon as have the screen door hit their a**es on the way out then stay and "try" to work things out.


I know, MWL. It hurts my head to think how much he's putting into his marriage. It's torture and I am not one who can handle torture very long. So, if my head is hurting from his running around....gosh....I don't now how he does it...or how anyone can hang on that long. It's crazy. I just can't see anything else there to be saved. There's no way she'll one day open her eyes and see him as a person. Maybe if she was seriously willing to work things out but so far, it doesn't seem like so.


----------



## greenpearl

moon,

MWIL is in a similar situation, sometimes what they are suffering is beyond our belief, but they still want to work out their marriages. 

Sometimes by sticking around, miracles happen; sometimes by walking out, we give us another chance to pursue happiness again. 

Let's just pray for them that their life works out to the positive direction................


----------



## moonangel

greenpearl, I pray that they move on and find happiness.

I can see why there are so many relationship problems out there. Too many people want to stay and try to fix something that can't be fixed. I understand there are situations where things can be fixed but sometimes, it's so obvious and they refuse to see it. It's like a fairytale in their minds that the other person will change. They don't see this until years later when things are completely polluted and the only way out is to duck, cover and crawl out.


----------



## greenpearl

moonangel said:


> greenpearl, I pray that they move on and find happiness.
> 
> I can see why there are so many relationship problems out there. Too many people want to stay and try to fix something that can't be fixed. I understand there are situations where things can be fixed but sometimes, it's so obvious and they refuse to see it. It's like a fairytale in their minds that the other person will change. They don't see this until years later when things are completely polluted and the only way out is to duck, cover and crawl out.


I agree with you! 

I ended mine nine years ago, left with a suitcase, now I am happy and cheerful since I have found true love! 

Here I like to use the sentence: We still have so many years ahead of us, we don't come to this world to live under stress or anxiety, we don't come to this world to be miserable, the sooner we find our happy life, the sooner we get to enjoy life! Living a long life full of misery, I don't suggest! If the other ones don't give us what we want, at least we can give it to ourselves!


----------



## Draguna

Jonny, you have a halfhearted approach to dealing with your wife it seems. I believe you want to leave, but are just scared of facing the life afterward. Who am I again, did she really love me, what do I do now etc. 
If you do want to stay, then get angry. At yourself that is, why you can't seem to change anything, why she does act like this, why you let her walk all over you. That anger might focus you on yourself for once, making you finally understand what you have to change. I'm not talking about feeling sorry for yourself like you are doing now, but really taking a look at yourself, get angry at who you are now an then change what you don't want to be.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

moonangel said:


> greenpearl, I pray that they move on and find happiness.
> 
> I can see why there are so many relationship problems out there. Too many people want to stay and try to fix something that can't be fixed. I understand there are situations where things can be fixed but sometimes, it's so obvious and they refuse to see it. It's like a fairytale in their minds that the other person will change. They don't see this until years later when things are completely polluted and the only way out is to duck, cover and crawl out.


Angel,

I see why you would feel that way.

But, experience tells me it's a bit more complex.

"Garbage in - garbage out"

If you are not in the right place, needy, and a whiny-assed baby, your wife is likely to treat you like one and see you as a child.

How about being the man she fell in love with and seeing how she responds to that?

Her "responses" may change, but it's not "her changing".

Many people miss that.


----------



## moonangel

Conrad said:


> Angel,
> 
> I see why you would feel that way.
> 
> But, experience tells me it's a bit more complex.
> 
> "Garbage in - garbage out"
> 
> If you are not in the right place, needy, and a whiny-assed baby, your wife is likely to treat you like one and see you as a child.
> 
> How about being the man she fell in love with and seeing how she responds to that?
> 
> Her "responses" may change, but it's not "her changing".
> 
> Many people miss that.


Conrad, I don't know if you know women...but some...and more than you think, know exactly what they are doing to their husbands. They make them into babies and then blame them for being a baby. His wife needs to be a woman and treat her man with respect and she will get one.

....that's just how it has always been in my world. The baby's that never learn, I never had time for those. Before meeting my husband, I met babies...lots of them. I guess that's why I am so blunt.


----------



## AFEH

jonny said:


> Re : sitting down and talking.
> 
> I've tried. It doesn't work.
> 
> Opening up - pouring out feelings - I tried that to. It was an all out cry / blah fest. At first I thought it worked, I thought me breaking down my walls worked.
> 
> it didn't. It's like it was just used as a weapon against me.
> 
> It's like I lost respect by doing that.
> 
> Which echos what is said here by guys such as deejo, conrad and the big bad wolf.
> 
> Enough is enough.
> 
> I don't deserve this sh!t.


Some woman say they like to see the vulnerable side of men. But I wonder if they ever really do. And I wonder if it’s ever the right thing to do to show our vulnerability. If we do we’d better be 100% certain we do it to the right person.


----------



## Conrad

AFEH said:


> Some woman say they like to see the vulnerable side of men. But I wonder if they ever really do. And I wonder if it’s ever the right thing to do to show our vulnerability. If we do we’d better be 100% certain we do it to the right person.


It's likely a mixed bag.

The more important a given issue is to them - the less likely they want to see vulnerability on the "other side".


----------



## AFEH

moonangel said:


> I can see why there are so many relationship problems out there. Too many people want to stay and try to fix something that can't be fixed. I understand there are situations where things can be fixed but sometimes, it's so obvious and they refuse to see it. It's like a fairytale in their minds that the other person will change. They don't see this until years later when things are completely polluted and the only way out is to duck, cover and crawl out.


There’s a truism in that.

But they don’t know it can’t be fixed while they carry on trying to fix it and at the same time go on tolerating the abusive behaviour. It can go on for years because the abuser will not see the light and change.

It is nothing else but the toleration of the abuse by the abused that enables the abuser to continue abusing. Nothing else at all.

So the abused has to stand up, put their hand up in a stop sign and say “Stop. I do not tolerate that behaviour from you" and then walk away. Until that time comes the trying to fix it and the abuse will continue ad nauseam.

As you say, round and round in circles.


----------



## AFEH

Conrad said:


> It's likely a mixed bag.
> 
> The more important a given issue is to them - the less likely they want to see vulnerability on the "other side".


I think I've joined the dots!


----------



## nice777guy

moon - my wife was doing this stuff for almost a full year. We separated. I finally started worrying more about ME and less about HER. That's when she quit the BS and came home.

You make divorce sound like a simple cure-all. But if you just walk out without an effort to make some changes, you'll probably just repeat the same mistakes after your next trip to the altar.

Jonny - if ever in doubt - if you are being an a-hole or a "Man" - just walk away and take some time. Most of the time, talking gets you nowhere - which it sounds like you are learning.

Keep in mind, you can't "hurry" a solution to this mess. You didn't get here overnight - you won't get out overnight. Take your time, and when in doubt, just back away.


----------



## moonangel

AFEH said:


> There’s a truism in that.
> 
> But they don’t know it can’t be fixed while they carry on trying to fix it and at the same time go on tolerating the abusive behaviour. It can go on for years because the abuser will not see the light and change.
> 
> It is nothing else but the toleration of the abuse by the abused that enables the abuser to continue abusing. Nothing else at all.
> 
> So the abused has to stand up, put their hand up in a stop sign and say “Stop. I do not tolerate that behaviour from you" and then walk away. Until that time comes the trying to fix it and the abuse will continue ad nauseam.
> 
> As you say, round and round in circles.


True.

I guess from an outsider like me who really knows what I want out of life, who don't focus on the things I don't want, hearing jonny's story is just too crazy to deal with. I wouldn't have the patience for it. I'm trying to understand how he stays or how she puts up with him but it just doesn't make any sense. I don't understand the tolerance. One dagger in the arm is way too many. I know others can tolerate more...just saying not with me.

If they were both willing to go to counseling or to work things out and talk through the hard-times then that's different. That's definitely tolerable and worth waiting out the storm.


----------



## moonangel

nice777guy said:


> moon - my wife was doing this stuff for almost a full year. We separated. I finally started worrying more about ME and less about HER. That's when she quit the BS and came home.
> 
> You make divorce sound like a simple cure-all. But if you just walk out without an effort to make some changes, you'll probably just repeat the same mistakes after your next trip to the altar.
> 
> Jonny - if ever in doubt - if you are being an a-hole or a "Man" - just walk away and take some time. Most of the time, talking gets you nowhere - which it sounds like you are learning.
> 
> Keep in mind, you can't "hurry" a solution to this mess. You didn't get here overnight - you won't get out overnight. Take your time, and when in doubt, just back away.


I'm glad that you two separated and that made your wife stop her bs, but a full year? Well, it's good she came around.

I never said divorce was easy but based on jonny's story, it's done. Maybe I missed something...maybe he did ask her to go to counseling or talk about it and she cooperated?


----------



## AFEH

moonangel said:


> True.
> 
> I guess from an outsider like me who really knows what I want out of life, who don't focus on the things I don't want, hearing jonny's story is just too crazy to deal with. I wouldn't have the patience for it. I'm trying to understand how he stays or how she puts up with him but it just doesn't make any sense. I don't understand the tolerance. One dagger in the arm is way too many. I know others can tolerate more...just saying not with me.
> 
> If they were both willing to go to counseling or to work things out and talk through the hard-times then that's different. That's definitely tolerable and worth waiting out the storm.


Yes but Love comes into the mix big time. Some simply don’t see that loving another is a choice. They are just “in love” and can’t imagine being “in love” or loving another person other than their wife. But when the abuse gets too much they begin to question their love and when the abuse is really over the top they ask themselves “Do I really need this” and “Is being in love with this person getting me what I want out of my life?”. And then they ask themselves do I choose to love this person anymore? And then they realise that “being in love” is a choice they can make.

And then there may be kiddies in the mix. Jonny’s ok there I think. But there’ll be finances and all the other stuff to consider in the overall balance of things.


----------



## nice777guy

moonangel said:


> I never said divorce was easy but based on jonny's story, it's done. Maybe I missed something...maybe he did ask her to go to counseling or talk about it and she cooperated?


I haven't read it real closely myself, but so far all I can see is that she's probably having an emotional affair and covering it with the "just friends" BS.

Its lousy, but a lot of marriages get through this stuff and worse. If they can figure out how they got to this point, then they could maybe make things better in the future.

And it sounds like Jonny is finding some things out about himself that might help him save this marriage, or make him a better person for the next time around.


----------



## jonny

seeking sanity said:


> This is an excellent point, though I don't neccessarly think women dislike it. A man's job is to lead. Dr Glover (Nice guy author) uses the analogy of a cake: A man's job is to create a good cake of a life - friends, direction, passion, exercise. The woman is the icing on the cake - the sweet stuff.
> 
> Most women don't WANT to be the cake. They don't want the responsibility to fill the void in a man's life. They WANT to be the icing.
> 
> Make sense?
> 
> So jonny, you need to look at your life objectively? You're woman aside, is your life filled with things that fulfill you?


No - it's not filled with things that fulfill me - Changing that as we speak. Taking responsibility as we speak. Thanks for the posts and the help.


----------



## jonny

AFEH said:


> MWIL,
> ...
> What the men here are trying to say is 1) Do not tolerate the behaviour you don’t like because it just gets more of the same and 2) Do not ever try and change the person you are married to because that’s a futile way ahead and just gets more of the same.
> 
> And it’s not about turning into a Rambo or any such thing. N.U.T.s. are just a very calm intolerance of specific intolerable behaviour from a spouse that until the present has always been tolerated. And in that way, the intolerance brings about a massive change in the dynamics between the two spouses. It is massive change and one never to be underestimated. The OP will become a different person and his wife will see him as a different person. Of course, how she responds to that different person is entirely up to her!
> 
> But in the way she responds the OP will learn one heck of a lot about the true and real nature of his wife! And he will more than likely have difficulty accepting it for the truth that it is and adjusting to it.
> 
> But something else happens as well. Well it did in my situation. When you stop trying to change your spouse but instead you just don’t tolerate certain behaviour anymore you see your spouse as the person they really are and not the person you are trying to make them be! And this “reality of the person we are spending our life with” is perhaps seen for the very first time.
> 
> If they continue with the behaviour we have decided to no longer tolerate then we have a big life changing decision to make. And that decision is “Do I continue with my marriage by going back and tolerating the behaviour from my spouse I don’t want to tolerate, knowing now what the future will be for the rest of my married life? Or do I divorce and find a new partner who will meet my essential needs from a partner just by being who they are!”
> 
> Bob


Thanks Bob. Well put.


----------



## jonny

moonangel said:


> GOOD. Then you'll be single soon.


 

By me saying I don't deserve the way I'm being treated, and that it changes now and ends now . . . that leads to me being single?

Your posts seem to support sticking up for myself, being 'a man' - then the next one will be " talk about it and tell her feeling and cry " You seem all over the map to me.

I do appreciate it all though - I like reading everything I can - I'm a big boy - I can take iin info and decide what's right, wrong, possible.


----------



## moonangel

jonny said:


> By me saying I don't deserve the way I'm being treated, and that it changes now and ends now . . . that leads to me being single?
> 
> Your posts seem to support sticking up for myself, being 'a man' - then the next one will be " talk about it and tell her feeling and cry " You seem all over the map to me.
> 
> I do appreciate it all though - I like reading everything I can - I'm a big boy - I can take iin info and decide what's right, wrong, possible.


Then act like a big boy.

Honestly, based on what you've written so far, it's not going to work out. It's so loud and clear. You don't have to believe me...keep trying...waste your time. Good luck.

btw, your friend that keeps talking to your wife...what an a.ss he is. Any real friend would tell her, "Something must be going on with you and jonny...you really shouldn't be talking to me this much." OMG. Can't believe how blind you guys are.


----------



## jonny

moonangel said:


> I'm glad that you two separated and that made your wife stop her bs, but a full year? Well, it's good she came around.
> 
> I never said divorce was easy but based on jonny's story, it's done. Maybe I missed something...maybe he did ask her to go to counseling or talk about it and she cooperated?


My marriage isn't done. It's disfunctional and not working in its current state.

So - I'm changing. I'm becoming more of a man, setting boundaries, defining and figuring out who I am, What I want, What I need - Thinking about what's acceptable and unacceptable to me in terms of behavior from my wife or others who want a relationship with me. Figuring out what I'll tolerate and won't tolerate.

That's what this entire 'nice guy' topic, boundaries topics, and most of this Mens Clubhouse seems to be about.

Divorce isn't off the table - it COULD come one day - But as a man of my word, a man with morals and my own set of ethics - add a child to that . . .

I'll do whatever I have to to make it work - In a way that respects both of our needs, and makes both of us happy.

Being a 'nice guy', trying to talk stuff out, crying, feeling, continuing to be patient, sacrificing my want and need of sex, affection, respect etc.

it has not worked.

Deejo, and everyone else who gives advice here pretty much says. 'nothing changes if nothing changes.' While you might listen to your husband and try hard to implement changes if he tells you your sex life isn't working, or 'I'm tired of you insulting me' other wives might not. 

not everyone is self aware. Everyone is to an extent - but many people have blinders on as to who they really are, and what's happening in a situation.

I'll make changes.
I'm making changes.
I will be more harsh and abrupt and forward when it comes to topics of importance.
For me and for my family.

If in the end my wife can't live with my changes. And the changes are positive. then she can't

Her resistance has already been big, yet the other side has been rewarding as well. She's fighting it. Just as I've been a door mat for 5 years - she's been a controller and 'mother' to a child, a boy for 5 years.

So - I'll say the same thing.

I don't deserve this ****. ( No one does. )
I'm tired of it. ( I am - you would be as well. )

And - well - thanks.


----------



## jonny

moonangel said:


> Then act like a big boy.
> 
> Honestly, based on what you've written so far, it's not going to work out. It's so loud and clear. You don't have to believe me...keep trying...waste your time. Good luck.
> 
> btw, your friend that keeps talking to your wife...what an a.ss he is. Any real friend would tell her, "Something must be going on with you and jonny...you really shouldn't be talking to me this much." OMG. Can't believe how blind you guys are.


He is her friend.
It's okay for Men to have female friend and vice versa - But certain boundaries must exist and be respected.

I befriended him on purpose. Pushed myself in there.

So whole he's my friend - I guess technically he was her friend first.

He's told me about wanting to get back into the dating scene etc. I have shot back - You best bet of finding single women is hanging out with single people. Us couples usually have couple friends.

Anyway - it's not the relationship that's the problem. It's how my wife is handling it / treating me when it comes to it. My main priority is making sure that the relationship doesn't become one that she's Dependant on. One that she puts more energy into than ours, one that she turns to for comfort. 

"Then act like a big boy."

That's why I'm here - I'm learning how to. But I don't know what your definition is. 

Why are you here Moon? To get help? To give advice? I'll have to check out your other posts to get a better idea. lol

Thanks for trying to help - some of your words were helpful!

Also and edit on the Opposite sex friends thing.

Again - it's how she's been handling it. I'm also not going to accept an opposite sex friendship that excludes me. Basically - if there's a get together, and my wife is invited - it's known that her and I are both invited. This goes for all her friends / my friends as well. If it's boys night or girls night - that's different.


----------



## greenpearl

jonny said:


> My marriage isn't done. It's disfunctional and not working in its current state.
> 
> So - I'm changing. I'm becoming more of a man, setting boundaries, defining and figuring out who I am, What I want, What I need - Thinking about what's acceptable and unacceptable to me in terms of behavior from my wife or others who want a relationship with me. Figuring out what I'll tolerate and won't tolerate.
> 
> That's what this entire 'nice guy' topic, boundaries topics, and most of this Mens Clubhouse seems to be about.
> 
> Divorce isn't off the table - it COULD come one day - But as a man of my word, a man with morals and my own set of ethics - add a child to that . . .
> 
> I'll do whatever I have to to make it work - In a way that respects both of our needs, and makes both of us happy.
> 
> Being a 'nice guy', trying to talk stuff out, crying, feeling, continuing to be patient, sacrificing my want and need of sex, affection, respect etc.
> 
> it has not worked.
> 
> Deejo, and everyone else who gives advice here pretty much says. 'nothing changes if nothing changes.' While you might listen to your husband and try hard to implement changes if he tells you your sex life isn't working, or 'I'm tired of you insulting me' other wives might not.
> 
> not everyone is self aware. Everyone is to an extent - but many people have blinders on as to who they really are, and what's happening in a situation.
> 
> I'll make changes.
> I'm making changes.
> I will be more harsh and abrupt and forward when it comes to topics of importance.
> For me and for my family.
> 
> If in the end my wife can't live with my changes. And the changes are positive. then she can't
> 
> Her resistance has already been big, yet the other side has been rewarding as well. She's fighting it. Just as I've been a door mat for 5 years - she's been a controller and 'mother' to a child, a boy for 5 years.
> 
> So - I'll say the same thing.
> 
> I don't deserve this ****. ( No one does. )
> I'm tired of it. ( I am - you would be as well. )
> 
> And - well - thanks.


Wish your wife is reading this! 

Sometimes two people are hurting each other on purpose just because of their ego. Neither one of them wants to give in first. 

If you wife knows that you are trying so hard to make your marriage strong and her life happier, many years later, she will really regret for the way she is treating you now and she will thank you a lot for trying hard to stay instead of walking away! Just wish her understands this! Stop mocking her husband and start acting responsibly since her man's health is important to her! 

A happy man will make a happy woman. 

I see a lot of female posters here are so bothered by men being strong, I don't understand what they want exactly! 

I don't think a yes man can make himself or his wife happy! I don't like macho men, but I like men with a strong sense of confidence. They know what they are doing, they know who they are, they know what they want.

When we are wrong, admit we are wrong, no one is perfect. But when common sense is telling us that we are right, then we have to be strong about our belief and be firm with it.


----------



## MEM2020

Jonny,
Clearly you are a bright guy. The "what do women really want" stuff is certainly complicated. I give you high marks for being practical. For example you have already recognized that showing your W intense emotions, sadness and crying is counter productive. GOOD. She is fairly typical in that regard. 

Over time - with practice you will get good at this stuff. Humor is the best "style" for enforcing boundaries and building a relationship. For example. 

Wife: I know why you like the dog so much he/she is the only one in the house who respects you
Jonny: Tilts his head puzzled and asks. So the dog is smart enough to know I deserve respect. Are you saying you aren't as smart as the dog?





jonny said:


> He is her friend.
> It's okay for Men to have female friend and vice versa - But certain boundaries must exist and be respected.
> 
> I befriended him on purpose. Pushed myself in there.
> 
> So whole he's my friend - I guess technically he was her friend first.
> 
> He's told me about wanting to get back into the dating scene etc. I have shot back - You best bet of finding single women is hanging out with single people. Us couples usually have couple friends.
> 
> Anyway - it's not the relationship that's the problem. It's how my wife is handling it / treating me when it comes to it. My main priority is making sure that the relationship doesn't become one that she's Dependant on. One that she puts more energy into than ours, one that she turns to for comfort.
> 
> "Then act like a big boy."
> 
> That's why I'm here - I'm learning how to. But I don't know what your definition is.
> 
> Why are you here Moon? To get help? To give advice? I'll have to check out your other posts to get a better idea. lol
> 
> Thanks for trying to help - some of your words were helpful!
> 
> Also and edit on the Opposite sex friends thing.
> 
> Again - it's how she's been handling it. I'm also not going to accept an opposite sex friendship that excludes me. Basically - if there's a get together, and my wife is invited - it's known that her and I are both invited. This goes for all her friends / my friends as well. If it's boys night or girls night - that's different.


----------



## greenpearl

MEM11363 said:


> Wife: I know why you like the dog so much he/she is the only one in the house who respects you
> Jonny: Tilts his head puzzled and asks. So the dog is smart enough to know I deserve respect. Are you saying you aren't as smart as the dog?


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I guess she will be more pissed! 

Believe me! By the way she is insulting Jonny! 

But I like it! It will be good on me! :rofl:


----------



## Conrad

jonny said:


> My marriage isn't done. It's disfunctional and not working in its current state.
> 
> So - I'm changing. I'm becoming more of a man, setting boundaries, defining and figuring out who I am, What I want, What I need - Thinking about what's acceptable and unacceptable to me in terms of behavior from my wife or others who want a relationship with me. Figuring out what I'll tolerate and won't tolerate.
> 
> That's what this entire 'nice guy' topic, boundaries topics, and most of this Mens Clubhouse seems to be about.
> 
> Divorce isn't off the table - it COULD come one day - But as a man of my word, a man with morals and my own set of ethics - add a child to that . . .
> 
> I'll do whatever I have to to make it work - In a way that respects both of our needs, and makes both of us happy.
> 
> Being a 'nice guy', trying to talk stuff out, crying, feeling, continuing to be patient, sacrificing my want and need of sex, affection, respect etc.
> 
> it has not worked.
> 
> Deejo, and everyone else who gives advice here pretty much says. 'nothing changes if nothing changes.' While you might listen to your husband and try hard to implement changes if he tells you your sex life isn't working, or 'I'm tired of you insulting me' other wives might not.
> 
> not everyone is self aware. Everyone is to an extent - but many people have blinders on as to who they really are, and what's happening in a situation.
> 
> I'll make changes.
> I'm making changes.
> I will be more harsh and abrupt and forward when it comes to topics of importance.
> For me and for my family.
> 
> If in the end my wife can't live with my changes. And the changes are positive. then she can't
> 
> Her resistance has already been big, yet the other side has been rewarding as well. She's fighting it. Just as I've been a door mat for 5 years - she's been a controller and 'mother' to a child, a boy for 5 years.
> 
> So - I'll say the same thing.
> 
> I don't deserve this ****. ( No one does. )
> I'm tired of it. ( I am - you would be as well. )
> 
> And - well - thanks.


jonny,

You are NOT changing.

You are choosing your emotional response.

There is a huge difference.

You are choosing not to display the weak-kneed whiny assed baby that STILL exists inside.

Guess who gets to comfort him? You do.

But, you ARE going to choose to be the man you were when she fell in love with you.

That man is just as much a part of you as the aforementioned whiny-assed baby.

This does not require a "change". You are NOT trying to be something that you are not.

Your response may change. You may view conflict situations and boundary settings with your wife differently. But, you are not changing. No friggin' way.

And, I will jump through cyberspace let you have it if you let that whiny assed baby tell her "how much you've changed".


----------



## nice777guy

Conrad said:


> jonny,
> 
> You are NOT changing.


Conrad - very well put.

This is one of the reasons that putting some distance between the two of you helps. It gives you time to rediscover yourself a bit. Hard to think about what is truly important to you when enganged in so much conflict.


----------



## lime

I apologize if this has been previously mentioned, but I've just skimmed the last few pages so I might have missed it.

Regarding the original situation, try to avoid being snarky and refusing to help your wife when she asks you for manly things. As in, installing technology, fixing the car, lifting heavy objects, etc. I would lose respect for my boyfriend if I asked him to fix the broken sink and he responded, "you're a big girl, do it yourself." Or if I needed help lifting a heavy box and he said that. It's actually a good thing to appear manly and competent with certain masculine tasks, so take advantage of those.


----------



## jonny

Conrad - Great post - I never thought of it as that. I did in a way, but what you wrote is much more clear.

OKAY - yesterday Morning / 2 nights ago.

I got out of the house. I was nice about it - just went out to get some cash - go check on my parents house. She said when will you be home? I told her - I'm not sure - later. Where are you going? I said to get some cash - then to my parents house - then who knows. 

She actually got upset a little - said " you could just say you're going out and don't know when you'll be back? "

I stayed calm - Smiled. " I did. I'll be back later. "

Anyway - She phoned me - " I feel like you're mad. and ignoring me."

" I'm not mad babe! I'll see you later. "
" Could we have a movie night or something saturday night? an us night?"
" sure "

All cutesy with me when I got home.

Next morning. She's in the shower - I check her cell phone. No texts in the inbox from this male friend of hers. Texts in the outbox. read texts - def a conversation. ( nothing bad, or nothing to upset me. )

She gets out of the shower.

" Honey - why are you deleting texts"
"I'm not! WHY WOULD YOU LOOK AT MY PHONE."
" Did you delete texts from 'bob'?"
"NO!"
"You sent multiple and got none back?"
"Yes - he must have been busy!"

"I've given you 3 chances to tell the truth. If you're going to talk to him fine, we deal with it and talk about it like adults. If you're going to HIDE and get sneaky about it - we're going to have a huge problem on our hands. I'm working on figuring out whats unacceptable and acceptable with this situation. If you can't respect me at the same time as having this friendship, if you Lie to me and sneak around - how do you think this will end? Did you delete texts from him?"
"yes"
"I deserve more respect than that"
Went on to say a few more things about me still figureing out what I'll tolerate and won't tolerate in this situation.

At the end she was miffed a little. When I said " You'd deserve the same from me - I wouldn't do this to you. "

I went downstairs.

She came down. Hugged me all cute like - said she's really sorry. said " I guess I owe you sex now. " I said I won't refuse it, but you don't owe me sex. you owe me respect. "

"She said " I know. "

So

That went well. rest of the day - some nice emails.

Last night more fitness testing - I failed some. Softened up a little to much - going back to needing her input. Gotta, as Conrad says 

"Stay the course"

I was disrespectful to her last night - I'm in confrontation mode - still resentful about things. Last night I'm doing the dishwasher - she's on the computer - wants me to take the dog out.

I do it - I come in. I go to her and say - Hun - if one of us is doing something, and the other is doing nothing - then the person doing nothing should take the dog out. I was abraisive about it.

She was pissed. Said yes dad. I told her - don't say that. "ok dad" I left.

I apologized later - as I was in the wrong. This wasn't an important topic or a boundary being crossed - this is one situation I could've brought up much differently with better results.

I was again, 'weak' the rest of the night.

Back in the saddle.


----------



## jonny

lime said:


> I apologize if this has been previously mentioned, but I've just skimmed the last few pages so I might have missed it.
> 
> Regarding the original situation, try to avoid being snarky and refusing to help your wife when she asks you for manly things. As in, installing technology, fixing the car, lifting heavy objects, etc. I would lose respect for my boyfriend if I asked him to fix the broken sink and he responded, "you're a big girl, do it yourself." Or if I needed help lifting a heavy box and he said that. It's actually a good thing to appear manly and competent with certain masculine tasks, so take advantage of those.


Makes sense. I'll try and mix the no more mr nice guy humor as well as the manliness is doing these manly tasks. Thanks. I wonder if I can demand a please?


----------



## Deejo

Can't hit a homerun every time you step to the plate.

Can you pull off snark? Can you find your inner smartass?

Such as:

Her: "Yes dad." (Obviously antagonistic.)

You: "Yes daddy. You mean, 'yes daddy'." 
Something like that, and you just turned a sh!t test into flirting.

The goal really isn't so much whether or not you can one up her all the time - although it is a skill you should foster.
The goal is that all of the crap that she pulls that gets under your skin, simply stops getting under your skin. That is under your control.


----------



## nice777guy

lime said:


> I apologize if this has been previously mentioned, but I've just skimmed the last few pages so I might have missed it.
> 
> Regarding the original situation, try to avoid being snarky and refusing to help your wife when she asks you for manly things. As in, installing technology, fixing the car, lifting heavy objects, etc. I would lose respect for my boyfriend if I asked him to fix the broken sink and he responded, "you're a big girl, do it yourself." Or if I needed help lifting a heavy box and he said that. It's actually a good thing to appear manly and competent with certain masculine tasks, so take advantage of those.


What if your spouse is being bossy or demanding? Or maybe even challenging or demeaning - suggesting you aren't man enough to perform a manly task?


----------



## AFEH

Deejo said:


> The goal is that all of the crap that she pulls that gets under your skin, simply stops getting under your skin. That is under your control.


Isn’t it called emotional manipulation and control? Hit the red button he gets angry. Hit the yellow button he gets sad etc. A lot of people know exactly what they’re doing and exactly the response they’ll get. Takes a while to sink in and accept.

Just gotta take the emotional control back and get above it.


----------



## jonny

Deejo said:


> Can't hit a homerun every time you step to the plate.
> 
> Can you pull off snark? Can you find your inner smartass?
> 
> Such as:
> 
> Her: "Yes dad." (Obviously antagonistic.)
> 
> You: "Yes daddy. You mean, 'yes daddy'."
> Something like that, and you just turned a sh!t test into flirting.
> 
> The goal really isn't so much whether or not you can one up her all the time - although it is a skill you should foster.
> The goal is that all of the crap that she pulls that gets under your skin, simply stops getting under your skin. That is under your control.


I'll try this. Even if she doesn't like it - I do. haha.


----------



## Conrad

jonny said:


> I'll try this. Even if she doesn't like it - I do. haha.


Who's yo daddy?


----------



## AFEH

Jonny, deleting txts is a really bad sign, a big red flag. It means she is keeping secrets from you. It sounds like the start of an EA.

There are applications you can put on mobile phones whereby you can see everything your wife does on hers.

If I was you I would do it and consider it due diligence on my marriage. Don't be taken for a fool buddy. Look in on the Coping with Infidelity forum if you need some more pointers.

No amount of "manning up" will get you what you want if her heart is with another man.

You may well find that your "changes in behaviour" have already been txt to OM.


Bob


----------



## Conrad

jonny,

The Wolf is very direct on this point.

You need not worry about passing "every test".

You already see the dynamic changing. She finds you much more interesting than the whiny-assed baby she's been living with.

Stay the course - have fun with it.


----------



## jonny

AFEH said:


> Jonny, deleting txts is a really bad sign, a big red flag. It means she is keeping secrets from you. It sounds like the start of an EA.
> 
> There are applications you can put on mobile phones whereby you can see everything your wife does on hers.
> 
> If I was you I would do it and consider it due diligence on my marriage. Don't be taken for a fool buddy. Look in on the Coping with Infidelity forum if you need some more pointers.
> 
> No amount of "manning up" will get you what you want if her heart is with another man.
> 
> You may well find that your "changes in behaviour" have already been txt to OM.
> 
> 
> Bob


Thanks Bob - AS always - good info / good insight.

Don't worry - I'm on top of it - been on top of it since the start. 

I've told her that I worry about it. I've told her that if i notice she's getting dependant on the relationship, addicted to it, that it should rasie some red flags in her own mind. I've told her not to lie, not to delete texts. 

"When our son if 5 years old, you know what I'm going to tell him - if he has to hide it from me, lie about it, he knows it's wrong. Same goes for you and this situation / relationship"

etc.

The thing that's changing in me. Yes CONRAD - I said change. The thing thats changing - is my attitude towards Me. Also to my relationship. I'm a nice guy - I'll give her lots of chances to do the right thing. If in the end she doesn't - I will now have no problem being the 'bad guy' and saying it stops now or we stop now.

I'm not going to go through the rest of my life being treated unfairly.

Golden rule - as one of you guys posted regarding boundaries. I'll treat her with respect. I deserve the same back.

I'll OWN that I'm more tolerable than most - That might change, but for now I own that - but Instead of just going on being tolerable and walked over - I will make an enough is enough statement when needed.

It's like a job. If I'm not doing a good job - I don't want to have my boss come in - say I'm fired without a chance to shape the **** up. I want him to talk to me like an adult - give me a chance - then fire me if I disrespect his wishes - OR - don't agree with them.

I'm still working on the details of my NUTS - or boundaries. I'm still working on what's acceptable / tolerable or not. AND - still working on how many times will I accept screw ups. Screw ups / accidents are different that outward defiance. 

BLAH BLAH BLAH.

Sorry.

I feel like I'm rambling.

I'm not sorry actually. 

I'm thankful for finding this forum - I have no idea how I got here. NO idea how I found a no-more mr.nice guy post. NO idea how I stumbled onto a fitness test post and thought - WOW. THIS WHOLE THING is MY LIFE.

You're right CONRAD. She is finding me more appealing - I can sense it - even if it's in waves right now. She's resisting like crazy - so it is a little dramatic right now - but it's a process.

Instead of being that pansy assed victim - I OWN that everything that's happened to me is my fault. Either by enabling, accepting, rolling over, cowering, or forgetting who I am.

There's a kids birthday on Sunday - I usually go - chase the kids around while my wife and the other girls socialize. I'm expected to. I'm told to watch the kids. Told to make sure they're behaving.

I'm going to paintball this time - I'm not going to wear armor - I'm going to get welts, and I'm going to wear them like a man. ( I will wear a can though. haha. Have to protect my favorite thing.)

God it's going to hurt like hell.

I might cry.

Manly tears.

haha.


----------



## Conrad

jonny,

One last thing.

The dance is owned by "both of you".

She pushed - you panicked.

So, the idea that "you failed" or "it's your fault" isn't true.

Couples get into these things together.

Yes, one has to lead the way out. That often falls on the male. But, there are many examples here of that working in the other direction.

You can only choose YOUR response. Not hers.

Unlike Bob, I'd say the hell with her phone. Who cares? Looks needy to even ask about it.

What IS unacceptable (to me) is to have her doing it in your face.


----------



## jonny

Oh - I should tell about a text convo with my wife today. 

She is attacking my manhood a lot lately - In a joking manner. Trying to get under my skin.

Last night - son gets a magnifying glass - what's this. Wife says " That's what mommy uses to find daddys penis" He laughes - holds it up to his eye - runs at me. " See daddys penis!? " I laugh - because it is funny. The old me would take offense. She knows this. 

I do a little - she's , afterall, attacking my manhood. but I don't let it show.

After he goes to bed. I tell her - you probably shouldn't say things like that Crystal. 

"Why? You insecure"

"ha. not at all. Wait till he picks up the magnifying glass at pre school and starts repeating your words though."

She also attacked it on facebook. About me losing weight - lots of responses - didn't know you had weight to lose!" etc. She said " he hid it in his pants." I came back with a comment about my member. " Thanks honey - you know I don't go bragging - but thanks for telling everyone about the weight I'm hiding in my pants" I was thinking it would end there. but back came

"Nothing to be proud of my dear."

Anyway. It's happening often - so I'm coming back at her with retorts. 

We shall see what goes on next. She's pissed, yet intrigued by this new me at the same time.

Really hot and cold about it.

Confused it seems.

I'll bet you anything in the world. If you told my wife that me manning up, doing what I'm doing would change how she feels towards me - She would say - no way. She would side with the other women on this site that talk against it. 

I'll say it's working.

and fast.

I'm not even close to 'out of the woods' yet - but I'll keep posting. The support is important to me. And hearing success stories / reading others experiences was and is important to me as well.

Thanks.


----------



## Conrad

>>Last night - son gets a magnifying glass - what's this. Wife says " That's what mommy uses to find daddys penis" He laughes <<

"Only after I used it to find Mommy's integrity"


----------



## AFEH

Conrad said:


> Unlike Bob, I'd say the hell with her phone. Who cares? Looks needy to even ask about it.


Well we disagree with the phone but time will tell one way or the other. As far as I’m concerned it’s an EA now. She spends all day at work with the guy and then lot’s of txting after work about stuff that’s not even work related. EA.


----------



## Conrad

AFEH said:


> Well we disagree with the phone but time will tell one way or the other. As far as I’m concerned it’s an EA now. She spends all day at work with the guy and then lot’s of txting after work about stuff that’s not even work related. EA.


Bob,

I totally agree it's an EA.

But, she knows how he feels about the texting.

Continuing to 'go there" just gets her to dig in and lets her know she's getting to him.


----------



## mtg2

Conrad said:


> >>Last night - son gets a magnifying glass - what's this. Wife says " That's what mommy uses to find daddys penis" He laughes <<
> 
> "Only after I used it to find Mommy's integrity"


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AFEH

Conrad said:


> Bob,
> 
> I totally agree it's an EA.
> 
> But, she knows how he feels about the texting.
> 
> Continuing to 'go there" just gets her to dig in and lets her know she's getting to him.


Ok. Personally I can’t see that anything Jonny does, changes he makes etc. is going to work while the EA is going on.

If the unspoken plan with yourself and the other guys here is for Jonny to make himself “attractive” enough for his wife to stop the EA, stop taking the whatsit out of him and for Jonny to be the one she has her primary emotional connection with then fair enough.

Still don’t think it’s going to work though. Everyday she communicates with OM the relationship gets deeper and deeper and therefore harder to break. A cent gets a dollar that OM already knows about the changes Jonny has made and they’re laughing about it.


----------



## moonangel

you really should keep it between the two of you and not fb. it's so sad how this just keeps getting worse...but...

it's okay to argue and be angry but not when one starts attacking your physical looks...how very sad.


----------



## mtg2

Oops. New to this and my iPad so not sure what I just sent above. 

In any case jonny, I just wanted to say that I've been following this thread and am really impressed. Just reading, you can feel the growth and changes you've made. I wish you could knock some sense into my husband. It takes a good man to recognize his faults and mistakes. And a bigger one to own them and make changes. 

Change is good. Seems to me that you're becoming more than the man that she may have originally fell in love with. A better one - for you, your son and her. I'm inspired to stay the course. I too have no idea how I ended up on this forum but wonder if your story and others and the great advice given consistently will be what pulls me through. 

So thanks. I hope your wife starts owning her piece in all this. She is loosing out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lime

jonny said:


> Makes sense. I'll try and mix the no more mr nice guy humor as well as the manliness is doing these manly tasks. Thanks. I wonder if I can demand a please?


You can demand anything from a woman if you do it in the right way 



NiceGuy, that's a good point; I still wouldn't say "do it yourself," however, because that can easily be interpreted as skipping out on your manly duties--especially by a woman who is already p*ssed off and looking for faults. I think in those situations it's even more important to use humor, or to tell her you'll do it on your terms.


----------



## MEM2020

Jonny,
Your post below is incredible. You are way stronger than you likely ever realized. I call my earlier bet that you are smart, and raise it to you are very smart.

It is perfectly ok to cry. In fact I believe there is some very powerful physiology underlying crying - it helps you expel grief from your body. 

Gentle suggestion. If at all possible do not cry in front of your wife. If she is anything like my W - many other women I know they are wired to react badly to male tears. 

The reality is that 80 percent of the reason my W loves me is based on the emotions I DO express. The last 20 percent of her love is based on those that I mute or completely mask. 

The 80 percent she sees are:
- love
- happiness
- optimism
- determination
- sympathy/empathy for her

The 20 percent I mute, conceal or convey on a well timed "delay loop" are:
- fear
- anger
- sadness (with kids problems - and we have some - when she is sad, and I share that sadness, I express it - so this is an exception - and yes I am also empathetic - see above - but I do show sadness in this case)
- frustration
- resentment

That does not mean I don't react when I feel I am being ill treated. I absolutely react. But typically I am calm and FIRM when I react and if I cannot think of something clever or funny I use phrases along the lines of:
"Would you be ok if I did that to you"?
"Do you really mean that"?
"What did you just say to me"? (I typically use this when she is clearly, overtly and deliberately provoking me. So in a sense she is "requesting" this response. No kidding for us - this is a type of foreplay. And this phrase is almost always delivered while walking towards her with unbroken eye contact until I am inside her personal space*)
"Silence - not a word - while I slowly and deliberately orient my body facing directly at her and simply stare quietly at her with a neutral expression"

This is just my experience so YMMV but in the past when I have tried to "talk about my feelings" this is what happens. She says something I believe to be unjustified/unfair/etc.

I say "that hurts my feelings and makes me mad"

She says: "You are being overly sensitive" OR
She gets MORE aggressive OR
She explains WHY whatever she did shouldn't bother me

At that point I DO lose my temper. And then I DO over react. And ultimately I end up apologizing. So I can safely say I almost never talk about my feelings "IN THE MOMENT". I stick to a neutral emotional affect, a firm delivery style and words that express my boundaries. 


* For context: I have never, would never hit my W, physically intimidate her, etc. This behavior has a specific meaning for "us" which loosely translates into: "If this is foreplay, follow the script. If not, go put on your "Arctic wear" because I am about to drop the emotional temperature in the house to absolute zero"



jonny said:


> Thanks Bob - AS always - good info / good insight.
> 
> Don't worry - I'm on top of it - been on top of it since the start.
> 
> I've told her that I worry about it. I've told her that if i notice she's getting dependant on the relationship, addicted to it, that it should rasie some red flags in her own mind. I've told her not to lie, not to delete texts.
> 
> "When our son if 5 years old, you know what I'm going to tell him - if he has to hide it from me, lie about it, he knows it's wrong. Same goes for you and this situation / relationship"
> 
> etc.
> 
> The thing that's changing in me. Yes CONRAD - I said change. The thing thats changing - is my attitude towards Me. Also to my relationship. I'm a nice guy - I'll give her lots of chances to do the right thing. If in the end she doesn't - I will now have no problem being the 'bad guy' and saying it stops now or we stop now.
> 
> I'm not going to go through the rest of my life being treated unfairly.
> 
> Golden rule - as one of you guys posted regarding boundaries. I'll treat her with respect. I deserve the same back.
> 
> I'll OWN that I'm more tolerable than most - That might change, but for now I own that - but Instead of just going on being tolerable and walked over - I will make an enough is enough statement when needed.
> 
> It's like a job. If I'm not doing a good job - I don't want to have my boss come in - say I'm fired without a chance to shape the **** up. I want him to talk to me like an adult - give me a chance - then fire me if I disrespect his wishes - OR - don't agree with them.
> 
> I'm still working on the details of my NUTS - or boundaries. I'm still working on what's acceptable / tolerable or not. AND - still working on how many times will I accept screw ups. Screw ups / accidents are different that outward defiance.
> 
> BLAH BLAH BLAH.
> 
> Sorry.
> 
> I feel like I'm rambling.
> 
> I'm not sorry actually.
> 
> I'm thankful for finding this forum - I have no idea how I got here. NO idea how I found a no-more mr.nice guy post. NO idea how I stumbled onto a fitness test post and thought - WOW. THIS WHOLE THING is MY LIFE.
> 
> You're right CONRAD. She is finding me more appealing - I can sense it - even if it's in waves right now. She's resisting like crazy - so it is a little dramatic right now - but it's a process.
> 
> Instead of being that pansy assed victim - I OWN that everything that's happened to me is my fault. Either by enabling, accepting, rolling over, cowering, or forgetting who I am.
> 
> There's a kids birthday on Sunday - I usually go - chase the kids around while my wife and the other girls socialize. I'm expected to. I'm told to watch the kids. Told to make sure they're behaving.
> 
> I'm going to paintball this time - I'm not going to wear armor - I'm going to get welts, and I'm going to wear them like a man. ( I will wear a can though. haha. Have to protect my favorite thing.)
> 
> God it's going to hurt like hell.
> 
> I might cry.
> 
> Manly tears.
> 
> haha.


----------



## MEM2020

The penis size stuff is very revealing. That is some ugly stuff. The closest analog I can come up with is calling a female fat but doing it in about as mean/hurtful a manner possible given the specific context. 

Why is your W lashing out in that way - using two incredibly inappropriate contexts:
- Your 5 year old child and
- FB - a public forum

All I can say about FB is that I ignore bad stuff posted there. Impossible to have a good outcome when you have a sense of decency and the other person lacks one. 

I think it is possible your W sees you losing weight, being more confident and is starting to fear where this is going. So instead of "upping" her game, she is trying to destroy your self esteem as that will make you easier to control/manage. And will also reduce the chance you eventually realize she doesn't deserve you and leave her. 

I am not sure how to respond to a W who makes hateful sexual comments in a public forum. Perhaps if it was me - I would remind her that without respect the marriage is nothing. And what she just did was about as disrespectful as you can get. 





jonny said:


> Oh - I should tell about a text convo with my wife today.
> 
> She is attacking my manhood a lot lately - In a joking manner. Trying to get under my skin.
> 
> Last night - son gets a magnifying glass - what's this. Wife says " That's what mommy uses to find daddys penis" He laughes - holds it up to his eye - runs at me. " See daddys penis!? " I laugh - because it is funny. The old me would take offense. She knows this.
> 
> I do a little - she's , afterall, attacking my manhood. but I don't let it show.
> 
> After he goes to bed. I tell her - you probably shouldn't say things like that Crystal.
> 
> "Why? You insecure"
> 
> "ha. not at all. Wait till he picks up the magnifying glass at pre school and starts repeating your words though."
> 
> She also attacked it on facebook. About me losing weight - lots of responses - didn't know you had weight to lose!" etc. She said " he hid it in his pants." I came back with a comment about my member. " Thanks honey - you know I don't go bragging - but thanks for telling everyone about the weight I'm hiding in my pants" I was thinking it would end there. but back came
> 
> "Nothing to be proud of my dear."
> 
> Anyway. It's happening often - so I'm coming back at her with retorts.
> 
> We shall see what goes on next. She's pissed, yet intrigued by this new me at the same time.
> 
> Really hot and cold about it.
> 
> Confused it seems.
> 
> I'll bet you anything in the world. If you told my wife that me manning up, doing what I'm doing would change how she feels towards me - She would say - no way. She would side with the other women on this site that talk against it.
> 
> I'll say it's working.
> 
> and fast.
> 
> I'm not even close to 'out of the woods' yet - but I'll keep posting. The support is important to me. And hearing success stories / reading others experiences was and is important to me as well.
> 
> Thanks.


----------



## AFEH

MEM11363 said:


> The penis size stuff is very revealing. That is some ugly stuff. The closest analog I can come up with is calling a female fat but doing it in about as mean/hurtful a manner possible given the specific context.
> 
> Why is your W lashing out in that way - using two incredibly inappropriate contexts:
> - Your 5 year old child and
> - FB - a public forum
> 
> All I can say about FB is that I ignore bad stuff posted there. Impossible to have a good outcome when you have a sense of decency and the other person lacks one.
> 
> I think it is possible your W sees you losing weight, being more confident and is starting to fear where this is going. So instead of "upping" her game, she is trying to destroy your self esteem as that will make you easier to control/manage. And will also reduce the chance you eventually realize she doesn't deserve you and leave her.
> 
> I am not sure how to respond to a W who makes hateful sexual comments in a public forum. Perhaps if it was me - I would remind her that without respect the marriage is nothing. And what she just did was about as disrespectful as you can get.


I think it’s exceedingly malicious and malevolent. And it’ll be absolutely nothing to do with Jonny or however he behaves. This is all down to the stuff that’s inside his wife, probably from her childhood and how she witnessed others behave at that time. And unless she sees and owns her own problems (sh!te) she will forever stay the way she is now.

Maybe Jonny you’ll be better off taking a look at Divorce Busting® - How to Save Your Marriage, Solve Marriage Problems, and Stop Divorce. They have programme called the 180.


----------



## Conrad

>>At that point I DO lose my temper. And then I DO over react. And ultimately I end up apologizing. So I can safely say I almost never talk about my feelings "IN THE MOMENT". I stick to a neutral emotional affect, a firm delivery style and words that express my boundaries.<<

If you have a high-spirited wife, this is the key to being close with her and not ending up as a guest on Jerry Springer.

I'm not kidding.

The more you try to fix "in the moment", the higher the escalation. I had no earthly idea what my part was in escalating conflict.


----------



## Draguna

Conrad said:


> >>At that point I DO lose my temper. And then I DO over react. And ultimately I end up apologizing. So I can safely say I almost never talk about my feelings "IN THE MOMENT". I stick to a neutral emotional affect, a firm delivery style and words that express my boundaries.<<
> 
> If you have a high-spirited wife, this is the key to being close with her and not ending up as a guest on Jerry Springer.
> 
> I'm not kidding.
> 
> The more you try to fix "in the moment", the higher the escalation. I had no earthly idea what my part was in escalating conflict.


Just a random thing, but you remind me of my grandpa. He would never punish in the moment, always later. He said that parents overreact when they punish in the moment. Have to say, was one of the fairer and loving men I've ever seen.


----------



## seeking sanity

I've been reading this all with interest.

The joke about your penis size is definitely over the line. That's just cruel. She's having an emotional affair, and with affairs because a person will try to act congruent with their beliefs, she's going to look to demonize you, in order to justify actions she knows to be wrong. That means if you're the bad guy, or a loser/wimp/whatever, it gives her cause to spend energy on this other man. 

i doubt she's even aware of it. And I also don't believe this is about fitness testing. She's not testing you to see if you are worthy, she's putting you down to prove to herself that she's justified in cheating. Big difference.

Someone has mentioned the 180, and I'd really encourage you to consider this tactic. She's actively in an affair, and won't acknowledge it. The emotional affairs tend to be more tolerable to men, than a physical one, but if you knew she was ****ing this guy, would that change how you would deal with this situation?

Here's a description of the 180 from survivinginfidelity.com :

180 is a list of behaviors from Michelle Wiener Davis, the author of Divorce Busting, that will help your spouse to see you moving forward as a healthy person. I would highly suggest that any new BS begin these behaviors as soon as possible. I am convinced that if I had implemented them, I would still be married. In retrospect, I did everything besides 180. I looked pathetic. No one wants to be perceived as pathetic. 180 makes you look strong. Strong is attractive. 

So here's the list:

[Copyrighted content removed by request of copyright holder http://www.divorcebusting.com/]


----------



## Conrad

Just an observation...

This sounds like "man-up" on steroids.



seeking sanity said:


> I've been reading this all with interest.
> 
> The joke about your penis size is definitely over the line. That's just cruel. She's having an emotional affair, and with affairs because a person will try to act congruent with their beliefs, she's going to look to demonize you, in order to justify actions she knows to be wrong. That means if you're the bad guy, or a loser/wimp/whatever, it gives her cause to spend energy on this other man.
> 
> i doubt she's even aware of it. And I also don't believe this is about fitness testing. She's not testing you to see if you are worthy, she's putting you down to prove to herself that she's justified in cheating. Big difference.
> 
> Someone has mentioned the 180, and I'd really encourage you to consider this tactic. She's actively in an affair, and won't acknowledge it. The emotional affairs tend to be more tolerable to men, than a physical one, but if you knew she was ****ing this guy, would that change how you would deal with this situation?
> 
> Here's a description of the 180 from survivinginfidelity.com :
> 
> 180 is a list of behaviors from Michelle Wiener Davis, the author of Divorce Busting, that will help your spouse to see you moving forward as a healthy person. I would highly suggest that any new BS begin these behaviors as soon as possible. I am convinced that if I had implemented them, I would still be married. In retrospect, I did everything besides 180. I looked pathetic. No one wants to be perceived as pathetic. 180 makes you look strong. Strong is attractive.
> 
> So here's the list:
> 
> [Copyrighted content removed by request of copyright holder http://www.divorcebusting.com/]


----------



## credamdóchasgra

Conrad said:


> Just an observation...
> 
> This sounds like "man-up" on steroids.


LOL!!!!! (which I only type when I actually do. In a public library, no less.)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AFEH

Conrad said:


> Just an observation...
> 
> This sounds like "man-up" on steroids.


I don’t want to do Jonny down. But he’s starting from a very “low?” place. Could need a double dose of metaphorical steroids to get back up to the norm whatever that is.


----------



## credamdóchasgra

Seekingsanity, does the author recommend this 180 stuff even if there's no infidelity--just an emotionally unavailable/turbulent spouse who doesn't seem able to care about his wife?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## credamdóchasgra

credamdóchasgra said:


> Seekingsanity, does the author recommend this 180 stuff even if there's no infidelity--just an emotionally unavailable/turbulent spouse who doesn't seem able to care about his wife?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Didn't mean to personalize a la hijack. Change "wife" to "spouse."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AFEH

Plus a healthy dose of calm intolerance.


----------



## AFEH

credamdóchasgra said:


> Seekingsanity, does the author recommend this 180 stuff even if there's no infidelity--just an emotionally unavailable/turbulent spouse who doesn't seem able to care about his wife?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Divorce Busting® - How to Save Your Marriage, Solve Marriage Problems, and Stop Divorce


----------



## jonny

AFEH said:


> I don’t want to do Jonny down. But he’s starting from a very “low?” place. Could need a double dose of metaphorical steroids to get back up to the norm whatever that is.


I'll read more and talk more later - when I can!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Well hey - might as well do mental steroids. ( Man up )
and physical now to get me an awesome body in 1/2 the time!

Hook me up?

Thanks for the comments AFEH.


I'm in a good spot today - I'm down 29 pounds - feel great. Last night - after reading your responses it put me into overdrive on worry about her in an EA. But calmed myself down.

I'll explain how, why, and what my thoughts are on this later.

Thanks again!


----------



## jonny

moonangel said:


> you really should keep it between the two of you and not fb. it's so sad how this just keeps getting worse...but...
> 
> it's okay to argue and be angry but not when one starts attacking your physical looks...how very sad.


It is sad, but it's how she's reacting right now. She's resisting, and she's being thrown off balance in a big way. She's trying to push those buttons she knows works - but the batteries on her remote are out.

So now she walking right up to the TV - hitting the biggest buttons she can think of - and, my reaction to her - laughing and humor.

I told her I can provide a panel of witnesses for this Trial on my penis if she'd like. Told her that her case would be thrown out. Also said again that the only reason she'd needs magnifying glass is because she forgets where it is. 

She brought up the 'funny ' story in front of friends this morning - the above is how I responded to lots of laughs - and her extreme irritation. 

So - sad - yes - but it's training me to let things go quick, and training me in terms of controlling my emotions. Also training me in terms of responses, humor, and control of the situation. Using ALL the tips and comments from everyone here. 

it is what it is right now moon. I can only change myself / control myself . . . that's what I'm doing. 

We have a date night tonight.


----------



## tobio

Jonny

Would be interested to hear - who instigated date night?


----------



## Conrad

jonny said:


> I'll read more and talk more later - when I can!
> 
> HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
> 
> Well hey - might as well do mental steroids. ( Man up )
> and physical now to get me an awesome body in 1/2 the time!
> 
> Hook me up?
> 
> Thanks for the comments AFEH.
> 
> 
> I'm in a good spot today - I'm down 29 pounds - feel great. Last night - after reading your responses it put me into overdrive on worry about her in an EA. But calmed myself down.
> 
> I'll explain how, why, and what my thoughts are on this later.
> 
> Thanks again!


Remember - "investigating out of thin air" shows neediness.

No problem with being curious about where you stand.

But, direct questions about those things right now work against you.


----------



## moonangel

jonny said:


> It is sad, but it's how she's reacting right now. She's resisting, and she's being thrown off balance in a big way. She's trying to push those buttons she knows works - but the batteries on her remote are out.
> 
> So now she walking right up to the TV - hitting the biggest buttons she can think of - and, my reaction to her - laughing and humor.
> 
> I told her I can provide a panel of witnesses for this Trial on my penis if she'd like. Told her that her case would be thrown out. Also said again that the only reason she'd needs magnifying glass is because she forgets where it is.
> 
> She brought up the 'funny ' story in front of friends this morning - the above is how I responded to lots of laughs - and her extreme irritation.
> 
> So - sad - yes - but it's training me to let things go quick, and training me in terms of controlling my emotions. Also training me in terms of responses, humor, and control of the situation. Using ALL the tips and comments from everyone here.
> 
> it is what it is right now moon. I can only change myself / control myself . . . that's what I'm doing.
> 
> We have a date night tonight.


I wonder if after all the work and effort you've put into saving this relationship that in the end, you will be so drained and will only want out. It's as if this is training you to be a man and once you get there, you will want to leave. Maybe? 

I hope your date night turns out well.

btw, I like your determination. But I think seeing how much you are learning, you deserve so much better. I just hope she will see this in you and come around as well. Gawd, if my husband worked as hard as you at keeping us together, I'd give him heaven....we are doing well (really well) but just saying if things ever got bad, and he was like you, I would notice it in a heartbeat and put my anger and resentments aside. Maybe she has too much pride in herself.


----------



## Conrad

moonangel said:


> I wonder if after all the work and effort you've put into saving this relationship that in the end, you will be so drained and will only want out. It's as if this is training you to be a man and once you get there, you will want to leave. Maybe?
> 
> I hope your date night turns out well.
> 
> btw, I like your determination. But I think seeing how much you are learning, you deserve so much better. I just hope she will see this in you and come around as well. Gawd, if my husband worked as hard as you at keeping us together, I'd give him heaven....we are doing well (really well) but just saying if things ever got bad, and he was like you, I would notice it in a heartbeat and put my anger and resentments aside. Maybe she has too much pride in herself.


Or too little.


----------



## seeking sanity

credamdóchasgra said:


> Seekingsanity, does the author recommend this 180 stuff even if there's no infidelity--just an emotionally unavailable/turbulent spouse who doesn't seem able to care about his wife?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh yeah, the 180 is just a way for a person to gain back their personal power, whether infidelity, addictions, or just neglect. The more invested partner often finds him/herself TOO invested in the relationship trying to control it to manage anxiety and get our needs met. The 180 is a way to detach from the outcome, and take responsibility for meeting your own needs.


----------



## moonangel

Conrad said:


> Or too little.


Too little pride? No. She has too much pride 'cause she's not backing down. If she had little pride, she would surrender and be the dirt under his feet.


----------



## credamdóchasgra

seeking sanity said:


> Oh yeah, the 180 is just a way for a person to gain back their personal power, whether infidelity, addictions, or just neglect. The more invested partner often finds him/herself TOO invested in the relationship trying to control it to manage anxiety and get our needs met. The 180 is a way to detach from the outcome, and take responsibility for meeting your own needs.


Well then, please pass the 'roids.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jonny

tobio said:


> Jonny
> 
> Would be interested to hear - who instigated date night?


She did. A few nights ago. She said something like - Are you ignoring me? mad? I just responded cooly. Nope. I'm good.

She said she was going out friday, then asked - " do you think we could have a date night Saturday"

I said "sure."

So - today is Saturday - We will watch a movie. I spanked her on the ass earlier - she said something, I said that deserves a spanking or something. She told me not to touch her - I did it anyway - knowing full well it may lead to nothing tonight.

She said " You will not touch me tonight - you lost your chance."

I just raised my eyebrows - said "short fused?" with a smile. Turned around and went back to what i was doing. 

I think she was hoping for a much bigger reaction from me

I'll type more later - after our movie.

n which I won't touch her.


----------



## jonny

Conrad said:


> Remember - "investigating out of thin air" shows neediness.
> 
> No problem with being curious about where you stand.
> 
> But, direct questions about those things right now work against you.


Thanks Conrad - Good post. Needed it right now. Nights on the weekends are the worst - As i'm alone with my thoughts, and away from her. she 'could' be doing anything . . . So of course the mind goes to the worst.

I was walking towards her room to listen for the clicking of a cell phone texting. But knoew it would be like other times - Get there, thing I hear clicking - but not sure. wondering, heart racing.

So I repeated your words. " Stay the course" and walk away. 

I know - or 99% know she's not - but the other 1% is a bastard and really strong.


----------



## AFEH

jonny said:


> Thanks Conrad - Good post. Needed it right now. Nights on the weekends are the worst - As i'm alone with my thoughts, and away from her. she 'could' be doing anything . . . So of course the mind goes to the worst.
> 
> I was walking towards her room to listen for the clicking of a cell phone texting. But knoew it would be like other times - Get there, thing I hear clicking - but not sure. wondering, heart racing.
> 
> So I repeated your words. " Stay the course" and walk away.
> 
> I know - or 99% know she's not - but the other 1% is a bastard and really strong.


Trust your gut instinct. It's there for a reason.


----------



## OhGeesh

Glad you are losing weight and getting in shape there is little in life that feels as good!! As far as everything else it seems like a bunch of games on both sides. Maybe this what it takes when a person is a floor mat and spineless for 5 years, it's hard for me to relate. You and your wife make more one liner comments to each other in aday bucking for position then we do in a year!! Good luck on the weight loss I still believe more in talking then anything else.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jonny

moonangel said:


> I wonder if after all the work and effort you've put into saving this relationship that in the end, you will be so drained and will only want out. It's as if this is training you to be a man and once you get there, you will want to leave. Maybe?
> 
> I hope your date night turns out well.
> 
> btw, I like your determination. But I think seeing how much you are learning, you deserve so much better. I just hope she will see this in you and come around as well. Gawd, if my husband worked as hard as you at keeping us together, I'd give him heaven....we are doing well (really well) but just saying if things ever got bad, and he was like you, I would notice it in a heartbeat and put my anger and resentments aside. Maybe she has too much pride in herself.


Moon - not much time to respond.

BUT - Me putting in so much effort I want to leave. I don't see it that way. I'm putting in a lot of effort on myself in this situation - And if it comes to that - I'll be able to do that without destroying myself.


----------



## Conrad

jonny said:


> Thanks Conrad - Good post. Needed it right now. Nights on the weekends are the worst - As i'm alone with my thoughts, and away from her. she 'could' be doing anything . . . So of course the mind goes to the worst.
> 
> I was walking towards her room to listen for the clicking of a cell phone texting. But knoew it would be like other times - Get there, thing I hear clicking - but not sure. wondering, heart racing.
> 
> So I repeated your words. " Stay the course" and walk away.
> 
> I know - or 99% know she's not - but the other 1% is a bastard and really strong.


jonny,

If you really want to know, you can log on to the phone bill today (on-line) and see the time of her texts.

Breaking in with a game of "gotcha" only creates those tender wonderful moments where escalation occurs.

You either end up with her hating you for busting her or you end up with her hating you for being a whiny-assed baby.

Good job not working against yourself.


----------



## credamdóchasgra

Jonny,

I haven't been following every post in your threads, but based on the last 3-4 pages here, you are doing great.
And based on the way your wife is responding differently to YOUR different responses, the overall and gradual change between you is possible.

Like you, I'm trying to change my responses to my husband, and "man up" (though i'm a wife).
Like you, I see every day as a chance for me to pass or fail some test, and I want to do a freakin cartwheel when I handle something well.

The way you've been handling your wife's antagonism and nastiness really helps me to deal with my H's nasty behavior when I just want to throw him out a window.
These guys are right, and they speak from experience.
They'll tell you it takes time, I'm trying to accept that too.

It really sounds like you're figuring it out. 
If posting here helps, like it helps me, keep it up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

moonangel said:


> Too little pride? No. She has too much pride 'cause she's not backing down. If she had little pride, she would surrender and be the dirt under his feet.


I don't think that's true.

If she feels really bad about herself, the instinct is to tear others down.


----------



## credamdóchasgra

Conrad said:


> I don't think that's true.
> 
> If she feels really bad about herself, the instinct is to tear others down.


:iagree:

Inside, she is insecure, vulnerable, needy. It's why she picks at him and harasses him.

Don't you remember hearing that bullies pick on other kids to make themselves feel better and keep themselves safe from being the target?--"Better him than me!"

This can be very calming to realize when you are being attacked, disrespected, tested.
When she does it, picture a stomping toddler sticking her tongue out at you.
Are you going to let a scared little kid hurt you? (Even if she is totally in the wrong)
When you see the weakness inside, you're taking away her weapons. Or at least deflecting them like bulletproof armor.

Jonny: KNOW this. BE THE GROWNUP.


----------



## nice777guy

credamdóchasgra said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Inside, she is insecure, vulnerable, needy. It's why she picks at him and harasses him.
> 
> Don't you remember hearing that bullies pick on other kids to make themselves feel better and keep themselves safe from being the target?--"Better him than me!"
> 
> This can be very calming to realize when you are being attacked, disrespected, tested.
> When she does it, picture a stomping toddler sticking her tongue out at you.
> Are you going to let a scared little kid hurt you? (Even if she is totally in the wrong)
> When you see the weakness inside, you're taking away her weapons. Or at least deflecting them like bulletproof armor.
> 
> Jonny: KNOW this. BE THE GROWNUP.


She's also using her "friend" to boost her esteem as well.

I could be wrong, but I'd like to think a healthy person who is unhappy in their marriage would approach their spouse before sneaking around with a "friend."


----------



## moonangel

Conrad said:


> I don't think that's true.
> 
> If she feels really bad about herself, the instinct is to tear others down.


I can tell you that most girls when they tear others down, it's not because they don't have pride. I've been there. Maybe for guys it's different.


----------



## nice777guy

When my wife was talking to other guys behind my back, I "know" it had a lot to do with boosting her self esteem. She was dealing with some health issues and she could use the internet to "hide" these issues while getting attention.

Now, she didn't directly tear me down like Jonny's wife is doing, so maybe there is some difference.

Some people will NEVER admit they are wrong. That isn't strength - that's insecurity. I'm wrong all the time - and I think I learn from it. Some people just can't admit it.

And don't confuse being proud with being stubborn. Sneaking around behind your husbands' back just doesn't seem prideful to me - hence the "sneaking" part.

It took my wife nearly 2 years to admit that what she was doing was just plain wrong. I didn't rub it in. In fact I forgave her and welcomed her back. But I know it was hard for her to own up to having caused so much damage to our marriage.


----------



## credamdóchasgra

Yes, niceguy, this friend is making J's wife "feel good about herself."
in quotes, because who knows how she "really feels" deep down in there.

But J's main priority should be that it does NOT affect how HE feels about HIMself, or at least not let her know that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jonny

Conrad said:


> Remember - "investigating out of thin air" shows neediness.
> 
> No problem with being curious about where you stand.
> 
> But, direct questions about those things right now work against you.


Makes perfect sense - And as I've said before - all the words here help me to stick to what I'm doing.

I did fall back just a bit. I've been more, well - ALPHA. lately. Been trying hard to stay away from being Needy, Insecure around her. It's been working.

I went to Paintball on Sunday with some friends who are competitive. Came back with Welts all over my body - Big goose-egg / welts on my upper forehead.

" WHAT HAPPENED? "
" I got shot. lots. "

While at paintball - she was texting me about don't get shot in the balls - you'll get blueballs. I texted back, that I'll show her where to lick later.

Anyway - fast forward. after my shower. She came downstairs and asked if she could give me a special gift. I knew she was referring to going down on me - Which has not happened in around 4 years. I said " Are you going to bake me a cake? " and it led to - well - yeah.

now.

AFTER THIS>

I felt weak again! It was weird. I felt I owed her something, Went back to asking if she needed anything. SO - I need to figure out how I'm going to treat Sex / Sexual contact with my wife.

It was fun - I liked it - I told her that.

Yesterday - After my son went to sleep. 

" I'm going out for a beer with my Brother. See you later. "

I know she's freaked that I might talk about her - Of course I did - I haven't told anyone but you guys about this situation.

She texted me during the middle of beer with 

" You look sexy with your goose-egg on your forehead. "

I didn't respond.

I got hime and it was right into the " What did you guys talk about? " stuff. 

I just said " guy stuff - yknow! Not much!" went downstairs to shower.

This hasn't stopped her from texting this other guy - but it is changing the dynamic of our relationship. Lots of little fitness tests that I try to pass, sometimes I fail. The facebook insults have stopped - and actually went to compliments.

STAY the Course. Right Conrad.

I just got the 2 books in the mail today. No more mr. nice guy, and the NUTS book. 

I need to think about and develop my personal Boundaries - then communicate them effectively to my wife.

Time to read more posts.


----------



## jonny

seeking sanity said:


> Oh yeah, the 180 is just a way for a person to gain back their personal power, whether infidelity, addictions, or just neglect. The more invested partner often finds him/herself TOO invested in the relationship trying to control it to manage anxiety and get our needs met. The 180 is a way to detach from the outcome, and take responsibility for meeting your own needs.


I've re-read the 180 post made a few times. For instance - right now - I want to know what she's doing for lunch. I have this fear that She would bring this guy home for lunch. ( Not for anything Physical - I've got no worries about that right now. ) - AS she's going home to let out the dog and she'll usually bring a co-worker or 2.

I told her back when this started I don't want him and her alone anywhere. But - I don't think she actually cares about the initial boundaries set.

ANYWAY - SEE!? HAHAHAHA. All this worry for nothing.

SO - I was just about to text her " How is lunch - how's <Dog Name? > 

But I said - NO. you're beeing needy. You don't need to know where she is, you don't need to check up on her. And came to this forum to read the 180 post - as well as to read this and my other thread.


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## jonny

AFEH said:


> Divorce Busting® - How to Save Your Marriage, Solve Marriage Problems, and Stop Divorce


That site is a nightmare to navigate. I was on it for 20 seconds, said EFF THIS and closed the page. haha. I know it's there if I need, or even want it!


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## jonny

Conrad said:


> I don't think that's true.
> 
> If she feels really bad about herself, the instinct is to tear others down.


This is making sense. She sees me pulling away from her - Changing how I deal with her, being more "disconnected" She's feeling bad about herself - so she's insulting / prodding even more. I won't assume she feels bad about what she's doing - I won't rely on that - as that would make it even worse. 



credamdóchasgra said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Inside, she is insecure, vulnerable, needy. It's why she picks at him and harasses him.
> 
> Don't you remember hearing that bullies pick on other kids to make themselves feel better and keep themselves safe from being the target?--"Better him than me!"
> 
> This can be very calming to realize when you are being attacked, disrespected, tested.
> When she does it, picture a stomping toddler sticking her tongue out at you.
> Are you going to let a scared little kid hurt you? (Even if she is totally in the wrong)
> When you see the weakness inside, you're taking away her weapons. Or at least deflecting them like bulletproof armor.
> 
> Jonny: KNOW this. BE THE GROWNUP.


Trying to! Thanks! 



credamdóchasgra said:


> Jonny,
> 
> I haven't been following every post in your threads, but based on the last 3-4 pages here, you are doing great.
> And based on the way your wife is responding differently to YOUR different responses, the overall and gradual change between you is possible.
> 
> Like you, I'm trying to change my responses to my husband, and "man up" (though i'm a wife).
> Like you, I see every day as a chance for me to pass or fail some test, and I want to do a freakin cartwheel when I handle something well.
> 
> The way you've been handling your wife's antagonism and nastiness really helps me to deal with my H's nasty behavior when I just want to throw him out a window.
> These guys are right, and they speak from experience.
> They'll tell you it takes time, I'm trying to accept that too.
> 
> It really sounds like you're figuring it out.
> If posting here helps, like it helps me, keep it up.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It helps me - This Forum has helped me quite a bit. It's the only place I've revealed what's going on. I did have a beer with my brother last night and gave him a little of the story, but here is where I'm really getting some tough love, some good advice, some bad advice, and a way to just get it out. I hope my post rings true with what someone else is going through and it helps them in the end.

Thanks.

I will say this. With my responses to her attacks. I think Moon mentioned something about it being childish back and fourth. I am trying to change it - I still want ti to hit, but hit in a humorous or adult way as opposed to a childish jab back. 

If that's possible.

As in - there's resent and anger behind my controlled responses - which means I'm not truly calm and in total control of them.


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## jonny

nice777guy said:


> When my wife was talking to other guys behind my back, I "know" it had a lot to do with boosting her self esteem. She was dealing with some health issues and she could use the internet to "hide" these issues while getting attention.
> 
> Now, she didn't directly tear me down like Jonny's wife is doing, so maybe there is some difference.
> 
> Some people will NEVER admit they are wrong. That isn't strength - that's insecurity. I'm wrong all the time - and I think I learn from it. Some people just can't admit it.
> 
> And don't confuse being proud with being stubborn. Sneaking around behind your husbands' back just doesn't seem prideful to me - hence the "sneaking" part.
> 
> It took my wife nearly 2 years to admit that what she was doing was just plain wrong. I didn't rub it in. In fact I forgave her and welcomed her back. But I know it was hard for her to own up to having caused so much damage to our marriage.


Have you posted your story somewhere else? Regarding your wife talking to other guys? Any links to check out? How did you handle it? What did you say? What did you do or not do?


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## nice777guy

jonny said:


> Have you posted your story somewhere else? Regarding your wife talking to other guys? Any links to check out? How did you handle it? What did you say? What did you do or not do?


I think my story is fairly spread out.

We separated for a year. Took me awhile to understand that pursuing her and trying to convince her how much I care was counter-productive. 

When I quit calling and texting her every night, when I quit asking so many questions, and when I started doing things that didn't involve her - that's when things started to get better.

Sounds like you're off to a good start.

But at some point, I think you will need to confront the texting issue head on with some sort of ultimatum.


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## jonny

nice777guy said:


> I think my story is fairly spread out.
> 
> We separated for a year. Took me awhile to understand that pursuing her and trying to convince her how much I care was counter-productive.
> 
> When I quit calling and texting her every night, when I quit asking so many questions, and when I started doing things that didn't involve her - that's when things started to get better.
> 
> Sounds like you're off to a good start.
> 
> But at some point, I think you will need to confront the texting issue head on with some sort of ultimatum.


Thanks.

And re: Ultimatum 

I've thought about it - and I still don't know what my Ultimatum would be, How I would effectively communicate - and what bugs me / doesn't bug me about the entire thing.

I feel weak when I think about it - Not in the way that it effects me emotionally . . . but because I can't come up with a clear, decisive boundary in regards to the situation.

Thanks again.


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## nice777guy

jonny said:


> Thanks.
> 
> And re: Ultimatum
> 
> I've thought about it - and I still don't know what my Ultimatum would be, How I would effectively communicate - and what bugs me / doesn't bug me about the entire thing.
> 
> I feel weak when I think about it - Not in the way that it effects me emotionally . . . but because I can't come up with a clear, decisive boundary in regards to the situation.
> 
> Thanks again.


How confident do you feel that there is really nothing going on with this guy? What does your gut tell you?

One place to start could be marriage therapy. Not really an ultimatum - but a good place to discuss what's happening.

Other possible ultimatums:
1) She introduce you to this guy or else stop talking to him
2) She lets you read her texts, or she has to stop texting
3) She cuts ties with him or you leave

Not sure how effective 1 & 2 would be. Just meeting him "might" give you a feel for the true nature of their friendship. With texts, she could just show you what she wants you to see.

Another book you could look into is "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass. Helps you understand the differences between real friendships and emotional affairs. I was able to find it at my local library.


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## jonny

nice777guy said:


> How confident do you feel that there is really nothing going on with this guy? What does your gut tell you?
> 
> One place to start could be marriage therapy. Not really an ultimatum - but a good place to discuss what's happening.
> 
> Other possible ultimatums:
> 1) She introduce you to this guy or else stop talking to him
> 2) She lets you read her texts, or she has to stop texting
> 3) She cuts ties with him or you leave
> 
> Not sure how effective 1 & 2 would be. Just meeting him "might" give you a feel for the true nature of their friendship. With texts, she could just show you what she wants you to see.
> 
> Another book you could look into is "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass. Helps you understand the differences between real friendships and emotional affairs. I was able to find it at my local library.


Thanks - I'm going to think about bringing this up with our 'therapist' - whom I haven't liked as a marriage therapist yet - but have liked as a personal therapist.

1) I met him. I've befriended him. We email back and fourth. Initially it was purely " Keep your friends close and your enemies closer" type mentality. But he's still aloof, and of course still has an allegiance to my wife in terms of friendship. So I guess you could say we're friends, but not REAL friends yet.

What I've learned. He's total Beta. He's actually frightenly like me - in terms of letting women walk all over him etc. He's also not that bright. He's smart when it comes to his profession, which I know my wife respects in a huge way - but as for everything else - He's not quick, common sense doesn't seem to be there etc. So I don't know that he's thought once about how this could possible affect me. He doesn't want a girlfriend right now - So I think he's choosing my wife as a friend as he feels it's 'safe' Thing is - it's unsafe in my opinion. 

I'm keeping tabs the best I can on it without arising suspicion. I also force myself to back off - not look at her cell etc if it's affecting me too much. 

2) This is a possibility. BUT - I could see this putting me in a constant state of weakness in her eyes. Needing to feel reassured there's nothing going on. PLUS - who's to say she won't selectively delete texts. Right now - It might be a lose lose. Shows I'm weak.

3) This is also a possibility. I've told her after getting to know him - it's not him I'm worried about - it's her. I told her that I'm working on my boundaries with this, and I still don't know how to handle this relationship of hers. I told her that I will make the decision I feel is best for the marriage in terms of boundaries - and if it means cutting contact off, means me having to be the bad guy - I'll be it.

Not just friends - Thanks for the title - I've seen it recommended previously. I need to focus on me - and my 3 books right now.

No more mr. nice guy
Hold on to your N.U.T.S.
and Starting Strength 

Thanks again


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## gregj123

Yep it works MANUP!!! pisses them off more sometimes works well


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## nice777guy

jonny said:


> Thanks - I'm going to think about bringing this up with our 'therapist' - whom I haven't liked as a marriage therapist yet - but have liked as a personal therapist.
> 
> 1) I met him. I've befriended him. We email back and fourth. Initially it was purely " Keep your friends close and your enemies closer" type mentality. But he's still aloof, and of course still has an allegiance to my wife in terms of friendship. So I guess you could say we're friends, but not REAL friends yet.
> 
> What I've learned. He's total Beta. He's actually frightenly like me - in terms of letting women walk all over him etc. He's also not that bright. He's smart when it comes to his profession, which I know my wife respects in a huge way - but as for everything else - He's not quick, common sense doesn't seem to be there etc. So I don't know that he's thought once about how this could possible affect me. He doesn't want a girlfriend right now - So I think he's choosing my wife as a friend as he feels it's 'safe' Thing is - it's unsafe in my opinion.
> 
> I'm keeping tabs the best I can on it without arising suspicion. I also force myself to back off - not look at her cell etc if it's affecting me too much.
> 
> 2) This is a possibility. BUT - I could see this putting me in a constant state of weakness in her eyes. Needing to feel reassured there's nothing going on. PLUS - who's to say she won't selectively delete texts. Right now - It might be a lose lose. Shows I'm weak.
> 
> 3) This is also a possibility. I've told her after getting to know him - it's not him I'm worried about - it's her. I told her that I'm working on my boundaries with this, and I still don't know how to handle this relationship of hers. I told her that I will make the decision I feel is best for the marriage in terms of boundaries - and if it means cutting contact off, means me having to be the bad guy - I'll be it.
> 
> Not just friends - Thanks for the title - I've seen it recommended previously. I need to focus on me - and my 3 books right now.
> 
> No more mr. nice guy
> Hold on to your N.U.T.S.
> and Starting Strength
> 
> Thanks again


Its always interesting how women don't necessarily "affair up". So many women cheat with someone who is just like us, or not even close to us as a standard.

The men that my wife was interested in had TIME as their best quality so far as I can tell. They weren't dedicated fathers - or husbands - and weren't working demanding jobs, or maybe not even working. They were basically just internet trolls who could pay attention to her.

The text thing doesn't have to look weak if you do it in a 'lay down the law - this is hurting our marriage' kind of way. But at this point I don't think its necessary - just a possibility.

Overall though I think it sounds like you are doing OK. Keep up the good work!


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