# What Is A Hard-Working Husband Worth?



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Good morning everyone.

This issue has come up before but seems to be a rather hot issue lately. This will probably generate strong feelings, so rather than derail someone else's thread, I'll start a new one.

Sex and money issues are among the most harmful, so seeing how they interact seems like a good idea. And, since there have been disparate opinions voiced, hearing the rationales behind them might help foster some understanding.

The question: what level of intimacy is earned by a diligent spouse who works hard and provides well? Has this spouse earned a good sex life, a basic one, or none? Why? What emotional or pragmatic factors go into this thought process?

The typical scenario where issues exist seems to be a guy works hard and provides a better-than-average life; he also works hard at home. His wife is a SAHM (although sometimes there are no children, or they are school-aged). He is troubled as his wife expects to live well, does so, yet is uninterested in trying to meet his need beyond a basic level (if at all).

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My thoughts / experience on the issue: I was a hard-working husband who mostly maintained the home and did very well financially. My ex (unlike most of the other women) did work, although her earnings went overwhelmingly to her own benefit.

My ex's felt the man should facilitate the woman's happiness on top of meeting the family needs and his own wants. So, having a nice home (expenses and upkeep) is my duty because of her emotional needs (comfort and security). If she had to pitch in substantially towards the bills, I was basically a bum and unworthy to have her around. We've seen this before.

Sex was a completely separate issue. Providing a nice life was a "hygenie" factor - enough for her to not resent me. It took more if I wanted sex more than what she felt was the minimum(a monthly quickie) or unless she was horny (which happened only a few times in the 13 years after our first child).

I feel you can only get out what you put in. So, you must put much into your marriage to get much out. If you want to be a equal partner, you need to put in equal effort to family and spousal needs. Claiming superiority based on gender or the type of need is inappropriate (and pointless besides).

I did not assert that she simply owed me because I had done stuff for her. Rather, I felt I had earned a fair level of accomodation because I had, at her request and for her direct benefit, exerted myself for several hours daily over a period of over a decade. Yet, I could not get her to devote a few hours a week to my needs. I don't think I'm remotely alone on this.

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Any other thoughts?


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## Lord Summerisle (May 23, 2013)

DTO - I've these threads and comments on this topic as well and I have to say I really don't understand them. If you are in a good healthy relationship then of the stuff you are analyzing even matters. Just my opinion obviously but intimacy can not be earned. It is either freely given or it is not. You can't buy it and you can't justify it. Therefore no matter how hard you work or don't work you will never "deserve" it. There isn't an empty jar somewhere that she is filling up with a jelly bean each time get a raise, new account or whatever. There are plenty of rich men who go to sleep each night in their mansions, tucked into their Egyptian cotton sheets full of bitterness and resentment after having their sexual advance denied for 10th time that month while an unemployed guy sits and plays video games in his 1 bedroom apartment all day surrounded by empty pop tart wrappers and red bull cans and when his wife/girlfriend comes home from work he gets treated to amazing mind blowing sex, week after week after week.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Lord Summerisle said:


> DTO - I've these threads and comments on this topic as well and I have to say I really don't understand them. If you are in a good healthy relationship then of the stuff you are analyzing even matters. Just my opinion obviously but intimacy can not be earned. It is either freely given or it is not. You can't buy it and you can't justify it. Therefore no matter how hard you work or don't work you will never "deserve" it. There isn't an empty jar somewhere that she is filling up with a jelly bean each time get a raise, new account or whatever. There are plenty of rich men who go to sleep each night in their mansions, tucked into their Egyptian cotton sheets full of bitterness and resentment after having their sexual advance denied for 10th time that month while an unemployed guy sits and plays video games in his 1 bedroom apartment all day surrounded by empty pop tart wrappers and red bull cans and when his wife/girlfriend comes home from work he gets treated to amazing mind blowing sex, week after week after week.


I doubt none of what you are saying. But, I'm trying to dig through to the "why".

For instance, maybe the rich guy who gets no sex has a wife resentful of his unavailability and she wishes he had been home more (and lived more simply) rather than working 80+ hours a week. Or maybe the issue was that he went around flashing cash and a nice car, and he attracted a hanger-on; the take away would be that guys should tailor their dating approach to the values they want their WAGs to model.

Maybe the lady is all over her husband because she simply lusts for him that much (with the obvious implications). Or, maybe the lady is all over him because she has decided to be a good, attentive wife out of respect for the relationship. The take away (for men and women both) would be that there are women out there who take their vows seriously and don't let whim or a fickle libido dictate their actions.

I hope this clarifies what I'm trying to do here.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Your problem is allowing a relationship where intimacy is currency.

Simply disallow this cheapening of intimacy and you'll never have this problem.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

I agree with Lord Summerisle - sex and intimacy need to be given freely. Putting a price tag on it, especially, makes it somewhat like prostitution (in my opinion.)

However - in a perfect world every loving, kind, faithful spouse would have the sex lives of their dreams. Every marriage would have two sexually healthy and happy people in it. 

Its sad we don't live in a perfect world. Sex, especially, is one of those things - one of life's greatest pleasures and, after marriage, you are at your spouses mercy of if you shall have it or not.

It does sound like you made the right decision to divorce your wife. I hope your next relationship will have so much crazy sex that it will make up for it. Because you are deserving, regardless of income or lifestyle.


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## PeaceTrain (Jun 25, 2011)

Lord Summerisle said:


> DTO - I've these threads and comments on this topic as well and I have to say I really don't understand them. If you are in a good healthy relationship then of the stuff you are analyzing even matters. Just my opinion obviously but intimacy can not be earned. It is either freely given or it is not. You can't buy it and you can't justify it. Therefore no matter how hard you work or don't work you will never "deserve" it. There isn't an empty jar somewhere that she is filling up with a jelly bean each time get a raise, new account or whatever. There are plenty of rich men who go to sleep each night in their mansions, tucked into their Egyptian cotton sheets full of bitterness and resentment after having their sexual advance denied for 10th time that month while an unemployed guy sits and plays video games in his 1 bedroom apartment all day surrounded by empty pop tart wrappers and red bull cans and when his wife/girlfriend comes home from work he gets treated to amazing mind blowing sex, week after week after week.


Did you make this up or you have seen this happening, or you read in a book or forum?


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

Emotional sex vs. deserved sex is a complex subject. 

Women will freely have sex with their partner countless times because he is their object of love, and as it was said elsewhere, he may be an unemployed bum in a one room flat.....But he has the sex life of a rock star.......

This was my situation early in my marriage....(except I usually had a job). I have been called a flat out liar when mentioning the sexual frequency my wife and I enjoyed in the first 12 years of our marriage......So trust me, I've been there......

Now I prefer to think of it as just a happy conjoining of two people with an appetite for sex........

In the period after the initial "honeymoon" sex (no matter how long that honeymoon may last) sex moves from being emotional "in love" sex to the ordinary "meat and potato's" routine........In the best case, it is two good friends each wanting to make the other feel good....

At this point while there may have occasional flares of the early honeymoon sex, for the most part this becomes the sex life of the married couple.....

In the old tradition the husband knew it was his job to provide for the family, and expected as his due for providing, a certain level of homely comfort, reasonably frequent and satisfying sex being one of the most important (for the man)....

In the old tradition, the wife knew it was expected of her, as part of the marriage covenant to provided, among other things, that reasonably frequent and satisfying sex....A woman's comfort to her "provider"...

I think that in that transition, from "love sex" to the expected, or covenant or duty sex some blurring of the lines has taken place, and duty sex becomes "DESREVED" sex.....

The old tradition wife becomes a modern woman, and sex (perhaps even unconsciously) is put on a quid pro quo basis...

The wife now expects to be provided for as her 'due", and she expects her husband to earn the right to have sex with her through romance, chores, gifts, more money.......the list is endless........

This puts the wife in the drivers seat.....

I wonder how many married men have been told they don't "DESERVE" sex.......If you do enough for me, for long enough, you might deserve sex at a later date........

This sequence of events can take place over a 50 year marriage, or it can be compressed into a few months.......

The wife is now the employer, task master, score keeper....take your pick, and the husband is placed under constant scrutiny to see if he is "earning" his ration of sex.....

The biggest catalyst for "in love" sex sliding into "deserved sex" is lack of respect on the wife's part for her husband......

Respect can be lost in many ways....by gaining a few pounds, not getting that promotion, being seen as a chore boy, or handy man, being in some way "less" than some other husband, or because the wife begins to believe what society tells her, that men are knuckle dragging Neanderthals........

In my case, a plant closed and I lost my job a couple of weeks before 9/11....

When you are a husband in the position of trying to earn sex, you have lost the race......And you probably didn't even hear the starter pistol.....

Let me interject at this point, the husband and wife may be deeply attached, and love each other a great deal....It makes no difference......At this point in a relationship, If your sex life is not being driven by a high sex drive on her part, except for the occasional pity sex, you will not have a sex life.......

Please don't ask me "What is the fix?"......Short of finding the cure for yeast infections, or landing a jet liner in the Hudson river, getting respect back is next to impossible....

At this point in many relationships, couples have "THE TALK", and the husband makes it clear that his role as "provider" is not a permanent one, and that it can be withheld almost as easily as sex.......Some wives at this point discover a new found respect for their husbands.....

I may be bashed as a bitter, or a woman hater, or a knuckle dragging Neanderthal, but at this point in my life, after much observation, that is MY position, and I take ownership of it........

good luck
the woodchuck


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## Michelleinmichigan (Jun 26, 2013)

A healthy couple's relationship should not revolve around sex, if it does, it will fizzle and die. Sex in marriage should be icing on the cake. Two people who appreciate each other, understand each other better than anyone else, are best friends, have each others backs, forgive each others weaknesses, will have great sex.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Wood. Did you have that discussion?
Did it work?


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

Men can't earn their way into more passionate sex, either the lady feels it or she doesn't. That is the truth, men have been trying to earn sex for all time. A woman's desire is not like a bubble gum ball machine where you put coins (earnings ) into the slot then it pushes out gumballs (sex). Women are more complex than that, the key is to find out if the lady's interest in sex is as high as yours. Don't go into marriage thinking that the sex will get better, it won't.

Household tasks are in the same category, you can't earn your way into sex through being her butler. Men don't get it. Remember the girl who gave it up on the first date, then you dumped her afterwards because you thought she was "easy"? That could have been your HD wife you would have been banging way into your 60's. Why do men go for the girl who is difficult with sex? There are more than a few threads on TAM where the guy had a girl who showed little interest in sex in the beginning but the guy married her thinking that she was going to improve after the ring when on. I see it time and time again in real life, men see women who like lots of sex (and partners) and they shun them thinking that the girl who shows LD traits is the better mate because they won't cheat on them. Then they end up in sexless marriages.

Women are taught to believe that men don't want to marry "easy" women. Men think "easy" women will cheat on them. We need to change our views on sex before we can solve these recurring problems in marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Intriguing theory. Let's add some numbers to stir the pot. Time to play the TAM Marrying Game!!!

Behind door number one is candidate wife #1: she puts out on date 1-3 with cumulative probability 75% (meaning after the 3rd date you have a 3 in 4 chance of getting lucky). Mizz One dresses the part and knows all the hot bars and right moves. 

Behind door number two is candidate wife #2: she puts out on date 1-3 with cumulative probability 10% (meaning after the 3rd date you have a 1 in 10 chance of getting lucky). Mizz Two spends her weekends delivering food to the needy and dresses conservatively.

Now, you can select One, Two, or buy a clue!

What's that? A clue he said. Clue says Wife 1 is HD and will cheat with 60% chance in 10 years, Wife 2 is LD and would not cheat if Brad Pitt is the pool guy...

Drumroll..... If our theory is correct most people will go for Wife Two... Why, he said? BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE RISK AVERSE... They don't want to, actually hate losing more than they enjoy winning... The fear of losing i.e. being cheated on is much higher than the pleasure of higher quality sex...


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## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

My one and only experience with matrimony show, at least for my ex, working hard and providing for the family unit held no value at all, for her.
At least until she no longer had the benefit of having it provided for her. She now is homeless.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

john117 said:


> Intriguing theory. Let's add some numbers to stir the pot. Time to play the TAM Marrying Game!!!
> 
> Behind door number one is candidate wife #1: she puts out on date 1-3 with cumulative probability 75% (meaning after the 3rd date you have a 3 in 4 chance of getting lucky). Mizz One dresses the part and knows all the hot bars and right moves.
> 
> ...


Who's to say that the LD person won't lose attraction to her spouse then cheat because she is bored after 15 plus years of marriage? And she marries you because you are the "safe" bet, and good for supporting her and the kids? But then safe sometimes means less risk. 

On the other hand, just because a lady is HD does not mean that she will automatically cheat. It means that she is in touch with her sexuality earlier than the LD girl is. Again, we have countless threads on this board with men complaining that they need their wives to enjoy sex, to get in touch with their sexuality. Yet they seldom pick the girl who shows that early on, all because they fear not being "good enough" or get cheated on. I guess you pick your poison....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

DTO did you discuss your expectation with your wife before you both agreed that she would stay home to take care of house and kids? If you were not explicit, why not? 

Wouldn't that be a covert agreement? One person hides an important expectation expecting the other to guess it. 

I think that the discussion should be up front and honest. That is the hallmark of a good relationship. Keeping secret of such an important expectation can never work out well. 

That's like a woman hiding the fact that she expects a 3000 sf house with a pool in a gated community in exchange for relieving her husband of household and childcare concerns so that he can concentrate on his career. 

Each values their contribution and their expectation of compensation differently. If they can't agree on the valuation of their respective roles then compromise is best so no one feels cheated.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Woodchuck said:


> Emotional sex vs. deserved sex is a complex subject.
> 
> Women will freely have sex with their partner countless times because he is their object of love, and as it was said elsewhere, he may be an unemployed bum in a one room flat.....But he has the sex life of a rock star.......
> good luck
> the woodchuck


Besides love and desire is sexual satisfaction. There are many threads from women who are sexually frustrated but have problems with their husband changing. 

Either their husbands are hypersensitive or won't listen or they change for a only a short period of time. 

I am sure for these women, sex becomes so frustrating that they avoid it. Perhaps every man should read up on the sexual response of women, even those who are skilled lovers. 

The payoff should be greater than the momentary discomfort of having to change techniques. Every woman is different. 

Another thing that I see that may be related is that mutual satisfaction is virtually absent from the discussion. You'd have to ask if a wife loving her husband is enough to make her desire sex.

If her sexual satisfaction is not a prominent part of the equation, love is not enough to sustain a rich and varied sex life. 

What I get out of these discussions is that a woman should have sex out of obligation, compensation and as a demonstration of her love for her husband. 

What about having sex because it brings her pleasure and satisfaction? That's real important to me. If I had sex that left me frustrated, I believe I would want to avoid it as much as possible. 

I would have sex to make my husband happy and because I love him but I would have to prepare myself for a physically and psychologically unpleasant experience.

I am certain it would be difficult to have sex frequently or to fain enthusiasm. Love would not be enough to overcome the effect of frustration.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

Yep, tired of all of these covert agreements, that is what started this thread in the first place...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Woodchuck said:


> Emotional sex vs. deserved sex is a complex subject.
> 
> Women will freely have sex with their partner countless times because he is their object of love, and as it was said elsewhere, he may be an unemployed bum in a one room flat.....But he has the sex life of a rock star.......
> 
> ...


:iagree::smthumbup:

When Mr. Woodchuck talks, I listen, as he talks from experience, and he lives in a time where the norms are a bit different from today. Whether his time deemed "better" or "worse" than present times, it's up to individual interpretation.. but to me personally, I think some people will find that his time would have been a wonderful time to life for many married couples.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> ..Another thing that I see that may be related is that mutual satisfaction is virtually absent from the discussion. You'd have to ask if loving her husband is enough to make a woman desire sex if her sexual satisfaction is nit part of the equation..


:iagree: Logical. The sex itself should be enjoyable if there are mutual love and mutual effort to satisfy. 



> ..Perhaps every man should read up on the sexual response of women, even those that are skillful lovers..


:smthumbup::iagree: I agree completely! 



> What I get out of theses discussions is that a woman should have sex out of obligation, compensations and to show her husband love.
> 
> What about having sex because it brings her pleasure and satisfaction? That's real important to me. ..
> 
> *I would have sex to make my husband happy and because I love him but I would have to prepare myself for a physically and psychologically unpleasant experience*...


While I get your point, I think if worded as I bolded above, it sounds like all kind of sex to make your husband happy is physically and psychologically unpleasant to you. Is your husband really that repulsive? If sex with him is unpleasant, why not just divorce him and be free from unpleasant sex? 

If you want to stay married, but also be free from unpleasant sex, then your alternative is to give him a sexless life. Which I believe is what happened to many threads I read here. The woman, for whatever reason, decided that sex with husband is unpleasant, but want to stay married anyway for whatever reason. The result is sexless life for the husband. 

What are your advice for couples in that situation? I get it that you have already advised that men should read up about women sexual responses, and exert their utmost to become better lovers, to ensure that in addition to being good providers, they must also become adequate lovers in bed. Do you have further advice? And what will be your advice to the ladies as well?

Also, what are your thoughts about cases where the husband already a good provider, and has tried his best to become a better lover, but his wife simply shut down and still give him no sex? Is getting a divorce or being a thankless slave are the only options available for the husband? Do you have any sympathy for poor husbands in that situation (as I am sure many in TAM are in such situation)?

Lastly, I have also read that many woman here came to TAM complaining about their husbands not wishing to have sex with them. Does the reverse also apply here? That these men might have been not enjoying sex with their wives. Maybe their wives's skills are questionable too? and thus these husbands decided that less is better? What are your thoughts about this situation as well? 

I personally think that such men does not deserve to have a wife, and should be cast to single-life, forever if necessary, if they won't recognize and mend the errors of their intolerable behavior. Rather than shutting down, they should communicate with their wives about how they wish to be treated, sexually speaking. Show them how they could be pleasured. But some husbands choose to simply shutdown and let their wives sexually suffer. This I cannot recognize as proper behavior.


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## Batman4691 (Jun 24, 2013)

techmom said:


> Who's to say that the LD person won't lose attraction to her spouse then cheat because she is bored after 15 plus years of marriage? And she marries you because you are the "safe" bet, and good for supporting her and the kids? But then safe sometimes means less risk.
> 
> On the other hand, just because a lady is HD does not mean that she will automatically cheat. It means that she is in touch with her sexuality earlier than the LD girl is. Again, we have countless threads on this board with men complaining that they need their wives to enjoy sex, to get in touch with their sexuality. Yet they seldom pick the girl who shows that early on, all because they fear not being "good enough" or get cheated on. I guess you pick your poison....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Techmom,
At the risk of hijacking this thread, I did marry the girl that "put out" when we were dating. Boy, did she put out. But this came not after the third date, but after nearly a year of dating each other. 
That's one thing that attracted me to her, and made me want her as my spouse. She loved sex. I thought we were a match for each other's sexual drives.
But after marriage, kids, and 30 years together, she has little to no interest in sex anymore, (but that's on another thread.)


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## Batman4691 (Jun 24, 2013)

DTO said:


> I feel you can only get out what you put in. So, you must put much into your marriage to get much out. If you want to be a equal partner, you need to put in equal effort to family and spousal needs. Claiming superiority based on gender or the type of need is inappropriate (and pointless besides).
> 
> I did not assert that she simply owed me because I had done stuff for her. Rather, I felt I had earned a fair level of accomodation because I had, at her request and for her direct benefit, exerted myself for several hours daily over a period of over a decade. Yet, I could not get her to devote a few hours a week to my needs. I don't think I'm remotely alone on this.
> 
> ...


DTO,
I for several years thought this way. That if I did everything I could to make my wife happy, long term and short term, that my wife would respond back to me in a sexual manner.

How many times on daytime TV, women's magazines, or just in general pop culture, do we hear that all a woman wants is for her husband to do for her, a sweet gesture, help her around the house, take care of the kids, so on, and so on. Then and only then will she feel like he cares about her needs and magically somehow she will reciprocate sexually. 
That is a myth.

I remember distinctly sitting on the edge of my bed one Christmas Eve, muttering to myself, "What did I do wrong". I thought I had done everything right that day. 
For nearly 20 years we had always enjoyed intercourse on Christmas Eve. Christmas somehow just put her in the mood. The atmosphere, the parties, the gifts, or whatever it was, not a year went by that we didn't make love that night.
I thought everything was going great prior that day. She was laughing and in great spirits, but when bedding down for the night she rolled up in a ball of sheets and blankets and nothing I could do or say would change her mind. 

That became my montra, "What did I do wrong." 
I would started doubting myself in, and out of the bedroom. 
I thought a night on the town, dinner, movie, or whatever would bring her around like in years past, but it didn't work. 
I thought if I did more things around the house and showed more interest in the things she liked that would open the way, but it didn't. 

I am going to now try a different approach and hope it works. I am going to take back my manhood and stop being her butler, and maid. A marriage should be in balance. 50/50. For years mine has been out of balance with me chasing her around like the school nerd chasing around the head cheerleader, hoping she will throw a glance his way.

You are not alone.


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## RFguy (Feb 17, 2013)

techmom said:


> Yep, tired of all of these covert agreements, that is what started this thread in the first place...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm gonna get a lot of flak for this, but this is how I see it:

The agreement in a marriage (or long term relationship) is that the husband provides the money (and safety/security) and the wife provides sex (and caring, etc.). It is not explicitly stated like that, but it is hardly covert. It has been like that for millennia, since the caveman days.

A marriage or LTR is not much different than any other commercial agreement between two parties. And to keep it going and keep both parties honest, each party must have some leverage over the other one. In a marriage, the leverage is sex and money. If the husband doesn't like the marriage, he has the option to take his money and leave. If the wife doesn't like the marriage, she can take her sex and leave. Using withdrawal as a threat you can keep the other party in line.

This is why relationships where the man is a SAHD often fail. The wife controls both money and sex, and the husband has absolutely no leverage on his wife and is entirely dependent on her.

Women can play this game very nicely, but it is us men that get confused. When a wife withholds sex, the husband will usually reply by giving more. 

Just read any relationships advice forum (TAM is an exception). When a frustrated husband comes for advice they will tell him to stop asking for sex (because it is clingy, pathetic), help around the house more, give flowers and gifts, offer back rubs and massages and do all that stuff with no expectation of sex. And somehow magically his wife will turn after some time into a sexual dynamo!!!!! :rofl:

In my opinion marriages would be happier if both spouses look at them more as an agreement where both must contribute, and use less touchy-feely excuses for bad behavior.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

DTO said:


> I doubt none of what you are saying. But, I'm trying to dig through to the "why".
> 
> For instance, maybe the rich guy who gets no sex has a wife resentful of his unavailability and she wishes he had been home more (and lived more simply) rather than working 80+ hours a week. Or maybe the issue was that he went around flashing cash and a nice car, and he attracted a hanger-on; the take away would be that guys should tailor their dating approach to the values they want their WAGs to model.
> 
> ...


I think the big *WHY* is the simple fact that women have very little emotional attachment to sex....I really think some women can attach more emotion to a favorite handbag or pair of shoes than to a years long extremely fulfilling sex life...

As a man this is hard to comprehend, but I have seen too many examples for it not to be true.........

Another *WHY* is lack of respect....When everywhere she looks, she is shown examples of men portrayed as crude, stupid, lazy, or insensitive, that impression takes hold....The smallest conflict is then magnified through this lens, and gradually your mates perception of and respect for you is eroded...It is extremely difficult to rebuild.....

The last and most toxic *WHY* is resentment......You had to work, and couldn't take her out, You didn't trade for the car she wanted, you don't make enough money, you spend time/money with your friends or on hobbies, you didn't edge when you cut the grass....She SAW you looking at that woman...

The size of the slight is never in proportion to the amount of resentment it causes....*A women can have a much stronger emotional attachment to her resentments than to her sex life......*

The *WHY's* finally reach a point where if *SHE* is not in the mood for sex, the fact that you are is *absolutely meaningless....*Even If it has been days, weeks, or months....She see's absolutely no reason why your desire for sex should result in her giving in......

The fact that you were an ardent and caring lover for years, the fact that in her marriage vows she knew she was agreeing to have sex with you, the fact that you have supported her in grief and illness, the fact that you have provided a comfortable lifestyle carry no weight.....

At this point the only argument that can get through to her is to make her understand that sex means enough to you that you are willing to end the relationship, and find one that will provide the sex you need.....

Not the happiest of conclusions, but too often true....

the woodchuck


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

Batman4691 said:


> Techmom,
> At the risk of hijacking this thread, I did marry the girl that "put out" when we were dating. Boy, did she put out. But this came not after the third date, but after nearly a year of dating each other.
> That's one thing that attracted me to her, and made me want her as my spouse. She loved sex. I thought we were a match for each other's sexual drives.
> But after marriage, kids, and 30 years together, she has little to no interest in sex anymore, (but that's on another thread.)


You said after a year? By then lots of women put out because then they start to see you as a long term prospect.

What I'm talking about is after a MONTH OR LESS of dating.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

a hard working husband is only worth what he believes hes worth.

if he believes he only worth bargaining for pity sex then thats what he will end up with.

if he believes he worth romantic hot monkey sex all rolled into one then HE has to make that happen. and if he made a poor choice in a wife then he can change his mind and look for a better one.


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## eyuop (Apr 7, 2013)

I've seen relationships where the man was the woman's dream man (her words) for years until he lost his job and they started struggling financially. Then she dumped him like a sack of used clothing for another man. (I guess the "for richer or poorer" clause wasn't really very hip...)

I've seen other relationships where the man treats the woman like total crap (even physically beats her) and she is still obsessed with him and will never leave him. She will even stalk him if he tries to go for another woman.

What I have noticed is that men who feel like they have to earn sex don't get much sex. But let me tell you, if a man has hundreds of thousands (or millions) of dollars in a bank account, he will not have to look very hard to find great sex.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

There has been this idea expressed on talk-shows and relationship magazine articles for some time that if men want to get their wife more excited about them, they should pitch in and help. I even saw an article once that read, "Guys, want to make her horny? Do the laundry!" If there is no truth to this, I think therapists and talk-show hosts should stop throwing this out.

As a divorced guy, I can relate to this. When a guy provides financially and does more than his fare share of other duties with no sex, it's very frustrating. I'm not saying that the sight of a guy doing a load of laundry should send his wife rushing to the lingerie drawer, but it does seem like a positive thing and not a negative. A wife coming home to a clean house on her husband's day off seems better than coming home to a husband in a recliner and dirty dishes spilling into the counter.

There's this feeling of, "What else can i do." Heck, if I do all this and the wife still doesn't appreciate it, what would it be if I did like some guys and never lifted a finger except to change the channel to the next football game? Would she be hitting me with a frying pan or would it make no difference?


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## ClimbingTheWalls (Feb 16, 2013)

My husband is a good provider, works hard and does very little round the house (though he thinks he does quite a bit).


As a woman, seeing him doing the laundry (for example) will absolutely NOT make me leap into the sack. In fact it will get me extremely worried that he did not check it for the proverbial red socks, and will turn all his shirts pink. The last think I will be able to think about is sex!

We have had a very long and difficult period sexually (now coming out the other side), with him being the one losing interest, so I cannot comment from the perspective of the woman who does not want sex. However, I can say that what will make me leap into the sack is flirtation and compliments. If he makes me feel sexy, I will perform! I don't mind initiating so long as I know I am going to get a favourable response.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Since I joined TAM a few months ago, I've seen a fair amount of declarations, musings, guesses and theories about how marriage is a contract that trades sex from the woman for financial security from the man. 

I have to admit I was surprised by the number of posters who see it that way. I agree with Lord Summerisle--intimacy doesn't belong in the realm of tit for tat, contract agreements, etc. At least mine doesn't. I brought it up with my husband, and he said a reliable sex life was not something he thought he'd deserve or be guaranteed by marrying me. If we had a good relationship, we both figured the sex and intimacy would be there. 

A lot of men seem to be trying to figure out why their wives won't have sex with them. They are looking for the answer to the question, "What do *I* have to do to make my wife want sex?" It does lead them to guess work and jumping through hoops that don't seem to make one iota of difference to their wives' libidos. I'm sure it makes for happier, more content wives, but that is a separate issue. 

There just isn't a one size fits all answer here, fellas. Sex for many women is very, very complicated. For a lot of women, it has more to do with them than with you. They might not know why they don't desire sex, so when you ask them, "Babe, what can I do to make our sex life better?" they will answer with things that they know will make them happy, content, etc. But those things won't turn them on sexually. 

Many women who have become LD over time (in my opinion) need to look for their sexuality and their libidos within themselves before they can ask their husbands to find it for them. We allow it to get subverted by motherhood, career, resentments, and, yes, the "unsexy" behavior of our husbands. 

I very much agree with the mantra that communication is key in relationships, but what about the relationship with the SELF? Women lose track of who they are on a spiritual level (I don't mean religious) when things start pulling us in a lot of different directions emotionally. We tend to put ourselves last, and this takes a toll. 

Ask your wives to reconnect with themselves before you ask them to reconnect with you.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Michelleinmichigan said:


> A healthy couple's relationship should not revolve around sex, if it does, it will fizzle and die. Sex in marriage should be icing on the cake. Two people who appreciate each other, understand each other better than anyone else, are best friends, have each others backs, forgive each others weaknesses, will have great sex.


Lord, if I read that quote again I'm going to puke. It's an idea carried around here like a bad virus. 

Two people can have all of those things together and still have a mind-numbingly boring sex life. Those things you mention are a necessary but utterly insufficient ingredient to a great sex life. A good sex life also needs two people who are fundamentally interested in sex, and that does not come guaranteed with all of those other qualities.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Ask someone who does not believe in emotional attachment to her family why she is interested - or not - in sex. Easy answer. At the same time as the other poster mentioned she is interested and attached to all things material and maintains the magical view that it is all hers.... 

I get far more enjoyment out of arguing with her and pointing out the fundamental idiocy of her position than I ever did out of having sex with her. 

Material goods and constant arguing and indifference don't match.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> ....For a lot of women, it has more to do with them than with you. They might not know why they don't desire sex, so when you ask them, "Babe, what can I do to make our sex life better?" they will answer with things that they know will make them happy, content, etc. But those things won't turn them on sexually....Many women who have become LD over time (in my opinion) need to look for their sexuality and their libidos within themselves before they can ask their husbands to find it for them. We allow it to get subverted by motherhood, career, resentments, and, yes, the "unsexy" behavior of our husbands.
> ....Ask your wives to reconnect with themselves before you ask them to reconnect with you.


:smthumbup::iagree::smthumbup: When Mrs. GettingIt talks, I listen, and become a little smarter! *bowing*


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Do I expect some sexual quid pro quo in a marriage?

You bet I do. My wife expects me to pull the things out of the upper cabinets that she can't reach. She expects me to perform the routine automotive maintenance that she has no training for. She expects me to lift the things that are too heavy for her and to keep the home computer network running smoothly. She expects me to work on the home improvement projects that I willingly take on mostly for her benefit that I don't really much like doing. Between the two of us, these are tasks which only I am truly qualified to perform. 

In return I expect some access to sex (among other things). I don't expect to always get what I want when I want it, but I expect that sex will not simply be removed from the relationship because she is not interested. Signing up for monogamy provides you with benefits and shoulders you with some responsibilities. As the only person with whom I am now allowed to express my sexuality, the opportunity for that expression must exist.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

Cletus said:


> Do I expect some sexual quid pro quo in a marriage?
> 
> You bet I do. My wife expects me to pull the things out of the upper cabinets that she can't reach. She expects me to perform the routine automotive maintenance that she has no training for. She expects me to lift the things that are too heavy for her and to keep the home computer network running smoothly. She expects me to work on the home improvement projects that I willingly take on mostly for her benefit that I don't really much like doing. Between the two of us, these are tasks which only I am truly qualified to perform.
> 
> In return I expect some access to sex (among other things). I don't expect to always get what I want when I want it, but I expect that sex will not simply be removed from the relationship because she is not interested. Signing up for monogamy provides you with benefits and shoulders you with some responsibilities. As the only person with whom I am now allowed to express my sexuality, the opportunity for that expression must exist.


most reasonable loving wives understand this and do pull their weight in the bedroom. But I'm starting to think that woman that fail to understand this should be set free. because usually if the are selfish/uncaring in the bedroom they are the same outside the bedroom.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

The more I linger at TAM, the more I realize how complicated relationships in general and sexual relationships are. If I had known how complicated a relationship could be, I probably never would have gotten married 21 years ago.

Are there really any answers to the problems? It appears not. If so, there would no longer be a reason to ask a question. There would just be a list of problems and their solutions, and that would be that. 

Are there any new problems? there doesn't appear to be. It's usually a mis-matched sex drive between partners and the quest to find out why. There might be a different twist from couple to couple, but that's it. 

Sometimes an answer will be presented that seems simple, but it never works across the board. What works for one couple has no bearing on another couple, which makes life even more complicated. 

When I was a teen, I had the naive idea that sex was something everybody on the planet enjoyed, and when you met the person you wanted to spend the rest of your life with, you could enjoy it for the rest of your life. There was nothing to indicate people didn't like sex. Sex appeal certainly sells products. I'm not sure if they've ever used a sexy add for hemmorhoid cream, but I'm sure it's on the way. 

According to commercials, women feel really sexy over great shampoo, cleaning products, pizza, and lately women are getting excited over burgers from Hardee's and Carl's Jr. Apparently, advertisers are under the impression that people like sex and that it will sell their products.



GettingIt said:


> There just isn't a one size fits all answer here, fellas. Sex for many women is very, very complicated. For a lot of women, it has more to do with them than with you. They might not know why they don't desire sex, so when you ask them, "Babe, what can I do to make our sex life better?" they will answer with things that they know will make them happy, content, etc. But those things won't turn them on sexually..


 Too complicated for me to understand.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

chillymorn said:


> most reasonable loving wives understand this and do pull their weight in the bedroom. But I'm starting to think that woman that fail to understand this should be set free. because usually if the are selfish/uncaring in the bedroom they are the same outside the bedroom.


They are, either unknowingly (stupid) or knowingly (evil) or both.

Too late for me but an excellent doctorate dissertation topic


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Do I expect some sexual quid pro quo in a marriage?
> 
> You bet I do. My wife expects me to pull the things out of the upper cabinets that she can't reach. She expects me to perform the routine automotive maintenance that she has no training for. She expects me to lift the things that are too heavy for her and to keep the home computer network running smoothly. She expects me to work on the home improvement projects that I willingly take on mostly for her benefit that I don't really much like doing. Between the two of us, these are tasks which only I am truly qualified to perform.
> 
> In return I expect some access to sex (among other things). I don't expect to always get what I want when I want it, but I expect that sex will not simply be removed from the relationship because she is not interested. Signing up for monogamy provides you with benefits and shoulders you with some responsibilities. As the only person with whom I am now allowed to express my sexuality, the opportunity for that expression must exist.


It's fine to have those expectations, but if your wife is not on board with the exchange, then you are s.o.l.

Not to say there isn't another path to a great sex life besides a wife signing on to *her husband's* view of things. 

Everyone's story is different, as a previous poster pointed out. All we can do is share what worked and did not work for us. 

I don't see many formerly LD folks on here sharing what worked for them--this is generally not a LD-friendly place. What I DO see is a lot of is HD husbands theorizing about what marriage should be, what they have done to try to "fix" their wives' libidos, and tons of frustration because not much that they try works. 

Let me be clear: my LD was mine alone. Until I took it upon myself to figure out where it originated, how it took root, and its role in the state of my own wellness and the wellness of my marriage, my husband was powerless to affect it. We were already living as roommates. Had he decided to divorce me if I couldn't turn things around, we would now be divorced. It wasn't until I decided to reframe my missing libido as MY problem and not OUR that I could understand it and address it.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> Let me be clear: my LD was mine alone. Until I took it upon myself to figure out where it originated, how it took root, and its role in the state of my own wellness and the wellness of my marriage, my husband was powerless to affect it. We were already living as roommates. Had he decided to divorce me if I couldn't turn things around, we would now be divorced. It wasn't until I decided to reframe my missing libido as MY problem and not OUR that I could understand it and address it.


 If we are taking your case as an anecdotal evidence, would it be reasonable to say that there are out there cases of wives being suddenly LD without her husband being the prime cause of that LD-ness?


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

GettingIt said:


> It's fine to have those expectations, but if your wife is not on board with the exchange, then you are s.o.l.
> 
> Not to say there isn't another path to a great sex life besides a wife signing on to *her husband's* view of things.
> 
> ...




Was the possibility that your husband might want to divorce the stimulus you needed to find the path to "getting it"????

It seems that lots of LD wives suddenly find their libido when faced with being served......

I think most LD women "own" their LD state, some flaunt it....I just feel their LD is absolutely the LAST thing they are willing to FIX unless pushed by the prospect of suddenly being single.......

Time after time I have seen sexless husbands given the advice "BACK OFF"....You are putting too much pressure on your wife....Give her a break from your sexual demands, and she will come around...IT ABSOLUTELY NEVER HAPPENS.......It is like going to a bargaining table and as your first move you capitulate to every demand.......The person across the table has absolutely NO incentive to do anything......The last thing a woman who is the cause of a sexless marriage wants to do is CHANGE..... 

the woodchuck


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

john_lord_b3 said:


> If we are taking your case as an anecdotal evidence, would it be reasonable to say that there are out there cases of wives being suddenly LD without her husband being the prime cause of that LD-ness?


Sure, I'm sure there are such cases out there, but . . 

I didn't say *my* relationship wasn't the prime *cause* of my LD.  My husband had a hand in our sex life going down the tubes, and he readily admits that. 

But even after the issues that damaged our intimacy had been resolved, even YEARS after we had learned to better communicate about problems in our marriage, the LD lingered. It _seems _logical to think that once the issues that caused the problem went away that my libido would resurface. Not so.

I had to bring it back--willingly, and with intent. And only I could do that. 

I'm glad my husband wasn't jumping through hoops all those years, becoming mired in resentment because he felt like he wasn't getting his half of some tit for tat. He seemed to know all along (or at least pretty early on) that it was my deal to solve.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Woodchuck said:


> Was your husbands decision to divorce the stimulus you needed to "getting it"????
> 
> the woodchuck


Sorry, I think you misread--he never decided to divorce me, nor threatened to. Had he done so, I'd have given him the divorce. 

I wasn't withholding sex from him--I didn't have any desire to have sex with him. He wanted me to get my desire back, not to just give him sex in order to avoid divorce. 

Not saying he wouldn't have eventually left me. But it would have made no difference to our sex life, even if I knew that was the reason he was leaving.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

GettingIt said:


> Since I joined TAM a few months ago, I've seen a fair amount of declarations, musings, guesses and theories about how marriage is a contract that trades sex from the woman for financial security from the man.
> 
> I have to admit I was surprised by the number of posters who see it that way. I agree with Lord Summerisle--intimacy doesn't belong in the realm of tit for tat, contract agreements, etc. At least mine doesn't. I brought it up with my husband, and he said a reliable sex life was not something he thought he'd deserve or be guaranteed by marrying me. If we had a good relationship, we both figured the sex and intimacy would be there.
> 
> ...


I really agree with this post. What it comes down to is that you cannot force your wife to WANT to have sex with you. That is only a decision she can make. No amount of bargaining, threatening, witholding money, etc... is going to make it happen. OK, I take that back. Maybe the threats, ultimatums, whatever, will temporarily shock/scare her into having more enthusiastic sex, but it will not be sincere and there will most likely be some deep resentment sprouting. And it is not going to last.

You can certainly communicate that you are unhappy and that you want to work together to improve your relationship. Ask your wife is she is happy and what you can do to make her more fulfilled (and I'm not talking about money either). You can share that you are NOT happy and that you really need more physical intimacy. How can you work on your relationship and each other's deepest needs together? That should be the focus.

I also agree that for some women, it's hard to feel sexual when you're constantly being pulled in ten directions and you don't even know who you are anymore.

What improved my sexual relationship with my husband? It was my realization that I truly wanted to make my husband happy and that I didn't want to be a selfish person. I also want a fulfilling marriage, and a sexual relationship is part of that. There's not many people who truly care about the mundane details of my day. I don't want to take my husband or the beautiful life we have together for granted.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> Sure, I'm sure there are such cases out there, but . .
> 
> I didn't say *my* relationship wasn't the prime *cause* of my LD.  My husband had a hand in our sex life going down the tubes, and he readily admits that.
> 
> ...


Ah, ok. So, if I may draw a mental chronology... (1) husband did something that 'damaged your intimacy' (2) you and him worked out the issues which damaged your intimacy, but your LD-ness remained (3) You fought your LD-ness out of your own free will.

As I have stated in other thread, you value your husband enough to make you seriously looked for solutions to stop being LD.

I assume he understood your issues and tolerated your LD-ness? This might have been a positive factor, but perhaps it is worth mentioning that many sexless husbands here also had shown patience, toleration and understanding towards their wives's LD-ness (just ask Mr. Cletus). But their patience, toleration and understanding doesn't seems to work in their case. Maybe their wives just don't value their husband enough. Or there are other variables which we overlooked.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

john_lord_b3 said:


> If we are taking your case as an anecdotal evidence, would it be reasonable to say that there are out there cases of wives being suddenly LD without her husband being the prime cause of that LD-ness?


I would be willing to say there are LOTS of women out there that are in a sexless marriage to a man they would describe as a very good, if not a perfect husband....

It is the lack of emotional attachment to sex that allows them to slide into a sexless condition.....Sex just becomes one more chore they can do without.....

As I have said before after the honeymoon sex has passed, if your sex life is not being driven by her libido, you will eventually have no sex life......

the woodchuck


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

GettingIt said:


> I don't see many formerly LD folks on here sharing what worked for them--this is generally not a LD-friendly place. What I DO see is a lot of is HD husbands theorizing about what marriage should be, what they have done to try to "fix" their wives' libidos, and tons of frustration because not much that they try works.


:iagree::iagree: That is for sure.

I have to admit I feel out-of-place here for the most part. But it has certainly reinforced how important sex is to a relationship. I've really realized the extent of sexual rejection--it cuts deep.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

GettingIt said:


> Sorry, I think you misread--he never decided to divorce me, nor threatened to. Had he done so, I'd have given him the divorce.
> 
> I wasn't withholding sex from him--I didn't have any desire to have sex with him. He wanted me to get my desire back, not to just give him sex in order to avoid divorce.
> 
> Not saying he wouldn't have eventually left me. But it would have made no difference to our sex life, even if I knew that was the reason he was leaving.


Your husband is a remarkable man...May I ask how long he waited?.....

the woodchuck


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

Woodchuck said:


> W
> 
> Time after time I have seen sexless husbands given the advice "BACK OFF"....You are putting too much pressure on your wife....Give her a break from your sexual demands, and she will come around...IT ABSOLUTELY NEVER HAPPENS.......It is like going to a bargaining table and as your first move you capitulate to every demand.......The person across the table has absolutely NO incentive to do anything......The last thing a woman who is the cause of a sexless marriage wants to do is CHANGE.....
> 
> the woodchuck


I'm sorry, I really disagree with this here. You make it sound like a LD person will not change unless you somehow prod them out of their muddy hole with a pitchfork. Some people simply want to change because they want to be BETTER people. A healthy marriage is not a bargaining table.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

momtwo4 said:


> I'm sorry, I really disagree with this here. You make it sound like a LD person will not change unless you somehow prod them out of their muddy hole with a pitchfork. *Some people simply want to change because they want to be BETTER people*. A healthy marriage is not a bargaining table.


I totally agree that is true (the bolded part), as evidenced by Mrs. GettingIt. And myself (yea, I was LD and still LD but these days I don't give my wife a sexless life anymore)..

But you also cannot close your eyes, to the fact that many LDs has become so content with the status quo, and yes, they got all they need out of the "marriage" without doing their end of the "bargain", so they totally has no willingness to change. Just ask Mr. Cletus. Or Mr. IndyTMI.

I second Mrs. GettingIt's opinion that LD-ness are different cases for each person. My LD-ness are different with Mrs. GettngIt's LD-ness and so totally different with Mrs. Cletus's LD-ness... I hope I am making sense


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Woodchuck said:


> Your husband is a remarkable man...May I ask how long he waited?.....
> 
> the woodchuck


Ten years--most of our 30's. 

Sex was up and down in those years, but never as good as it was before my libido took a nose dive. 

I've asked him what made him stay, why he stuck it out. He laughed and said he guesses he's a sucker for hope. We'd have sex a few times a month, and it was often very good, and he says it was enough for him to keep hope alive that I was still "in there" somewhere.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

momtwo4 said:


> I'm sorry, I really disagree with this here. You make it sound like a LD person will not change unless you somehow prod them out of their muddy hole with a pitchfork. Some people simply want to change because they want to be BETTER people. A healthy marriage is not a bargaining table.


It is your right to disagree....However, scroll down the list of threads in "Sex in marriage" and you will see DOZENS of cases of sexless or near sexless marriages where the sex starved partner has almost literally used that pitch fork, with no results.......

In your opinion what does it take?

the woodchuck


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Woodchuck said:


> Was the possibility that your husband might want to divorce the stimulus you needed to find the path to "getting it"????


Not in the least. I often wondered if we'd be better off getting divorced. 



Woodchuck said:


> It seems that lots of LD wives suddenly find their libido when faced with being served......


Maybe so, but I'd say those wives either were withholding sex despite having desire or they just pretend to get their libido back so their husband doesn't leave. 



Woodchuck said:


> I think most LD women "own" their LD state, some flaunt it....I just feel their LD is absolutely the LAST thing they are willing to FIX unless pushed by the prospect of suddenly being single.......


Maybe that would work for some women--it just would have resulted in divorce for me. 



Woodchuck said:


> Time after time I have seen sexless husbands given the advice "BACK OFF"....You are putting too much pressure on your wife....Give her a break from your sexual demands, and she will come around...IT ABSOLUTELY NEVER HAPPENS.......It is like going to a bargaining table and as your first move you capitulate to every demand.......The person across the table has absolutely NO incentive to do anything......The last thing a woman who is the cause of a sexless marriage wants to do is CHANGE.....


I would never recommend that a husband "back off" from communicating what he needs emotionally in the relationship. My husband didn't ever back off--he was unhappy and I knew it. He regularly and consistently brought it up and we did not have a comfortable marriage because of this. 

I had sort of thrown my hands in the air over the whole matter because *WE* couldn't fix it together. I hadn't considered that I could fix it on my own--that it was a matter of personal enrichment and growth. I feel like I have learned so much about myself, and it's been very humbling to see what a huge difference it's made to my husband and my marriage to to our family.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

southbound said:


> When I was a teen, I had the naive idea that sex was something everybody on the planet enjoyed, and when you met the person you wanted to spend the rest of your life with, you could enjoy it for the rest of your life. There was nothing to indicate people didn't like sex. Sex appeal certainly sells products. I'm not sure if they've ever used a sexy add for hemmorhoid cream, but I'm sure it's on the way.


Sex appeal sells but not sex itself. Big difference.

Let's make a movie like "10", Barbarella, etc and see how majorly it will flop...

Thank the country for turning conservative on itself while thinking we are Sodoma and Gomorrah etc.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

Woodchuck said:


> It is your right to disagree....However, scroll down the list of threads in "Sex in marriage" and you will see DOZENS of cases of sexless or near sexless marriages where the sex starved partner has almost literally used that pitch fork, with no results.......
> 
> In your opinion what does it take?
> 
> the woodchuck


Well, that was kind've my point (that using the pitchfork will not work). I wish I had a solution that would work for all couples. All I can say is that you really cannot force a person to change. As I said above, you cannot make your wife sincerely WANT sex with you. Only she can decide that she wants to change for the benefit of herself and for your relationship.

Let me say this. I DO believe that continually with holding sex from your partner is a form of emotional abuse. If someone is so set in their ways that they refuse to change or work on the relationship, well then there is not a lot you can do. If your sex-life is completely unacceptable to you, you are in constant turmoil, and your spouse has done absolutely nothing over an extended period of time to change, then you have to weigh the balances and decide whether you will stay in the situation or not.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

john_lord_b3 said:


> Ah, ok. So, if I may draw a mental chronology... (1) husband did something that 'damaged your intimacy' (2) you and him worked out the issues which damaged your intimacy, but your LD-ness remained (3) You fought your LD-ness out of your own free will.


I think intimacy can be damaged in so many ways--I don't put all the blame on my husband at all. It takes two. 

I've been thinking of a better way to frame this, and here is an analogy that sort of works:

We decided to have children. It took both of us to do that; we were both to "blame." Afterwards, my body was left changed--I had weight to lose and fitness to regain. Nothing my husband can do about it: if I wanted to get back in shape, I had to do the work. It wasn't his fault, it wasn't my fault, it's just the way things are. I WANTED to get back in shape, it was important to me, so I put the effort into it. I didn't focus on the fact that it was unfair that I was the one left with the work to do. 

Well, it was sort of like that with my libido. We both were to blame for the problems that turned me off to sex with my husband. After those problems were resolved, I was the one left changed. It wasn't his fault, it wasn't my fault, it was just the way things were. BUT ONLY I COULD FIX IT. It took me a looonnnggggg time to come to that realization. 

In other words: it didn't matter how many laps my husband ran, that "baby weight" wasn't going to budge until I did. 



john_lord_b3 said:


> As I have stated in other thread, you value your husband enough to make you seriously looked for solutions to stop being LD.


Yes, I love him and value him, but almost as important, I've remembered to love and value myself, and to never underestimate what I am capable of.



john_lord_b3 said:


> I assume he understood your issues and tolerated your LD-ness? This might have been a positive factor, but perhaps it is worth mentioning that many sexless husbands here also had shown patience, toleration and understanding towards their wives's LD-ness (just ask Mr. Cletus). But their patience, toleration and understanding doesn't seems to work in their case. Maybe their wives just don't value their husband enough. Or there are other variables which we overlooked.


No, he showed very little patience and understanding. He did not try to woo me or change himself in any way. He hated the way things were, and he brought it up regularly. It was all he could do, short of leaving. He was spot on with his behavior and that is probably why we were able to return to this level of intimacy.


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## committed4ever (Nov 13, 2012)

I'm almost afraid to even post on this thread -- everyone seem so season with this issue.

I read everything I come across regarding this topic on TAM, because I am SO AFRAID of where my sex drive will be after pregnancey (due Sept 30th). I have read so much on TAM about losing it, and I've talk to my sisters who both lost it and didn't get it back until they stop breastfeeding.

Here is my "drive" history in marriage (before marriage for various reasons it was mostly maintenance sex for my H (never sleeping together, never completely naked, basically quickies. I didn't know what else to expect because I was a virgin).

1. Beginning of marriage - LOVED sex. Couldn't get over that now I get to sleep with this man, get naked with him, kiss all over him non-stop. dopamine, oxytin, or whatever they are were nonstop flowing.

2. After a year of the pill desire begin to ebb. Still madly in love with him but sometimes rather cuddle than have sex. However I NEVER TURN HIM AWAY for sex. Why ... this may be unbelievable ... because that is one of her 3 rules for successful marriage from my Mom (do this and if you got a good man you should be fine). So I literal did not turn him down because this was one of the rules. This last for 2 years.

3 We're ready for kids and I stop taking the pill. After the first unsucessful year, we both freak out and this starts 2 more years of following different medical advice -- do it like rabbits, wait 24 hours, wait 12 hours, take your temperture then do it non-stop around the clock. 

4. 1 year of the marriage slowly start to crumble. H become devestated that we can't get pregnant and begin to slowly withdraw. I get frantic I'm losing him. We still have pretty frequent sex but not always emotionally there. I finally shock him out of it, we reconnect, and we have about 1/2 year of comforting each other through sex while we accept childless marriage. 

5. Last 6 months I get pregnant, sex drive is just off the charts, I have surpass my H's HD and I'm now in Super drive. That's where we are now.

I hope at some point I can find out from other women how they work past the low drive that comes from hormone changes after delivery. I don't want to go through a long period of not desiring sex, because I know that I will have sex anyway. I want to know if there is any change of mindset I can have to get my desire back. I guess I'm just a husband-pleaser and probably always will be as long as he don't change too much from the man he is now.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

Please don't think of me as a pompous ass, but I have strong feelings about sex and relationships. My wife and I have been married 47 years, and after much thought and observation, have come to what I consider pertinent conclusions..

I would like to explain myself and put my opinions into some perspective....

We were the couple that had that sex life every couple wishes they had.....

I was 18 the first time I made love to my now wife, and it was that night that she had her first orgasm with a partner...We were both on cloud 9......We married 4 months later....

I was what I later discovered is described as HD. My wife was also. 

Through a series of circumstances, including a near fatal motorcycle accident requiring a long recuperation, and having a job that left me at home during the day, when the kids were in school, over the next 12 years, my wife and I had almost unlimited free time for having sex...And we took full and enthusiastic advantage of it.......

I have been called a liar, but during that period, my wife and I had sex over 4,000 times.....It was very common for us to have sex 2-3 times per day, several days a week....And as I said, this went on for years....

During this sexual odyssey, my wife has told me she can not remember NOT having a PIV orgasm a single time....On more than one occasion, my wife's orgasms left her unconscious....

At that time I thought I was the super stud of the universe.....In fact I was but a humble musician, gifted with the opportunity to play an exquisite instrument......

Today we can talk for hours about our wonderful times together...
When we do, I am always filled with emotion, and feel very close to my wife.....On the other hand, although my wife is a very caring woman, and I have no doubt that she loves me, these conversations have no more impact on her emotions than discussing a nice vacation.......There is little or no "emotional" attachment.....

At first I did not understand her lack of feelings, but after studying relationships on TAM, I find that a woman's emotional attachment to sex is a rare exception, rather than a rule.......

It seems a strange paradox that the gender credited with sensitivity, warmth, and emotion shows little attachment, while the coarser, less sensitive male is bound to his lover by the sexual encounters they have.....

I feel that it is that lack of "emotional attachment" that allows a woman, even an extraordinarily sexual woman to simply drift into a sexless marriage......And that is what I credit with our marriage becoming nearly sexless over a year ago....

Our struggle with that situation took months to address, and many, many posts on TAM....

Things are now much better, and I am hoping that they remain so....The thing that struck me as being the most significant was that even though I pursued her, and initiated sex on a regular basis, I was usually rejected...And my wife says she didn't have any idea there was a problem with our marriage?????

the woodchuck


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## wranglerman (May 12, 2013)

I was in a situation where my then wife performed all I can describe as "duty" sex, the thought or notion that she would give me a BJ was non existent, the hope for better than well below average jump was often a turn off and a hand shandy in the shower was often better than the real deal, she often withheld sex as some [email protected] punishment for me being forgetful of random things, probably one of the reasons why I became so terribly unhappy in my marriage, she often tried to use sex as a lever to get her own way, always back fired, I could enjoy myself quite happily without her so she always lost out, and talking about the issue of sex was akin to discussing politics with a ferret, she was not interested, one night after a few beers I told her she sucked the sausage or I packed my bags, funnily she gave in to that  but it took that threat of me being so pizzed off with the lack of sex and variety that I pushed her to do something about it, although it worked that night she decided that two can play that game and off it went again, glad she cheated and broke our marriage, ended something worse than a nightmare for a guy who enjoys sex!!!


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Woodchuck said:


> Please don't think of me as a pompous ass, but I have strong feelings about sex and relationships. My wife and I have been married 47 years, and after much thought and observation, have come to what I consider pertinent conclusions..
> 
> I would like to explain myself and put my opinions into some perspective....
> 
> ...


I don't think you are a pompous ass.

Everyone's relationship is unique--based on personality, individual sex drives, and, of course, circumstances of life. No one here is any more qualified to comment on an issue than anyone else--we can only tell our stories. 

FWIW, my husband and I have been together since we were 19 and 20, and had ten years of the same sort of sex life you describe before my LD set in. (Seven times in one day is our record--OUCH!) Didn't make us immune to what happened. My LD didn't have anything to do with the type of sex life we'd had when we were both HD. 

In the end, my LD was more about my relationship with myself more than it was about my relationship with my husband. That is only the story of *MY* LD, though. I offer it up not prescriptively, but in case that someone else might recognize it as their own, too.


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## Lionlady (Sep 12, 2012)

The OP assumes that men always want sex more than women. In my 20 year relationship, there have been times when my husband wanted sex more and times when I wanted sex more. I don't think that during either of those times either one of us felt we "deserved" more sex...at least I didn't. Why would I want to have sex with someone who was just doing it because he felt it was owed to me? Yuck. That didn't mean I didn't get mad or get upset, but I didn't feel that I was "owed" sex for being a good wife. 

I think that if you are in a marriage where you are looking at sex as a bargaining tool, something is inherently wrong with your marriage. I would wonder what a man was like outside of the bedroom who believed he "deserved" sex for paying the bills and being "decent." Maybe you picked a woman who isn't interested in sex or maybe you're not turning your wife on, but I don't think duty sex is the answer. You might as well divorced your wife and pay a prostitute.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

My view is this, you can't make a woman desire sex through any technique such as the MMSLP, the 180, filing for divorce. Those things actually cause her to give up sex in fear of losing the relationship, not because she is genuinely feeling desire. The poster "trickster" has a thread called "giving up having sex with my wife" where the wife gives him sex when he wants it. He's still unhappy because it is duty sex and it does nothing for her, and is contemplating divorce anyway. He wants something from her that she is not able to give, genuine passionate sex. Although she is giving sex out of love for him it is not enough. She even offered to have him take a girlfriend but he refused that too.

That thread breaks my heart as an LD because as a person who wants to please my SO and wants to reduce the amount of rejections, what should I do? This is like fulfilling a primal need that I cannot fill because I don't have the tools (desire). Talking about the quantity vs quality, there should be other outlets for men to get their emotional needs met. Women have plenty of other outlets for emotional release. Men are expected to just stuff their emotions inside and the only release is during sex.

Reading Woodchuck's posts gives me the conclusion that the reason why women are not emotionally fulfilled with sex and men are is because men don't have other socially acceptable ways to express emotions such as vulnerablity, wanting, passion etc like they can during sex. Women have plenty of outlets for that and ways we can get affection.

Just my 2 cents.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

ClimbingTheWalls said:


> As a woman, seeing him doing the laundry (for example) will absolutely NOT make me leap into the sack. In fact it will get me extremely worried that he did not check it for the proverbial red socks, and will turn all his shirts pink. The last think I will be able to think about is sex!


In your opinion, what are some examples of a way the man can help out around the house in a way the woman would want? 

My wife had a job that was very tiresome. I also got more time off than she. From the start, I helped with the cooking, cleaning, washing, and when the babies came along, I was feeding babies, changing diapers, etc. She never once complained, but I don't think she appreciated it nearly as much as I thought she would. 

I've also read, after coming to TAM, that some women would rather their husband didn't do these things. How can a man help out appropriately?


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## nishi_25 (Jun 30, 2013)

@DTO, I totally agree with you. She is your wife, she has to respect you as the man of the house/ the husband, and she must fulfill her duty as a wife. Im sure shes a great lady, but intimacy is so important in a marriage, and sometimes, as wives, we forget how important our husbands are to us. We soon realize this.


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## committed4ever (Nov 13, 2012)

southbound said:


> In your opinion, what are some examples of a way the man can help out around the house in a way the woman would want?
> 
> My wife had a job that was very tiresome. I also got more time off than she. From the start, I helped with the cooking, cleaning, washing, and when the babies came along, I was feeding babies, changing diapers, etc. She never once complained, but I don't think she appreciated it nearly as much as I thought she would.
> 
> I've also read, after coming to TAM, that some women would rather their husband didn't do these things. How can a man help out appropriately?


For me, there is nothing my H can do in the house that would lead to more sex (not that he doesn't get all he wants any way). But caring for the house is my domain because truthfully he really is "in charge" in the marriage. Caring for the inside of the house is where I rule. I handle the cooking cleaning and laundry. I know that might seem like, oh you're a cook, laundress and housekeeper but it work for me and for him. That may change after I have the baby but that the way it is now. I work too but H handle the bills (all money in one pot) he take care of fixing things and the outside of the house, and the cars. I won't be working after I have the baby.


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## mrsball (Sep 18, 2012)

What about the hard-working husband who puts all his time and effort into his work and thinks that providing for his family in this way means he shouldn't have to also meet his wife's emotional or sexual needs? Or that the work leaves him so stressed he's not interested in sex? The husband who thinks that a roof over their heads and food on the table = job done?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## committed4ever (Nov 13, 2012)

mrsball said:


> What about the hard-working husband who puts all his time and effort into his work and thinks that providing for his family in this way means he shouldn't have to also meet his wife's emotional or sexual needs? Or that the work leaves him so stressed he's not interested in sex? The husband who thinks that a roof over their heads and food on the table = job done?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That would work for me. Not at all. So it would be a non-working marriage. Nobody would be happy.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

committed4ever said:


> I'm almost afraid to even post on this thread -- everyone seem so season with this issue.
> 
> I read everything I come across regarding this topic on TAM, because I am SO AFRAID of where my sex drive will be after pregnancey (due Sept 30th). I have read so much on TAM about losing it, and I've talk to my sisters who both lost it and didn't get it back until they stop breastfeeding.
> 
> ...


Low hormones affecting drive is one thing, relationship issues affecting drive is another.

If indeed your drive takes a dive after you become a mother, my advice would be to make sure you are staying in tune with WHY. If you are accustomed to having sex with your husband for his sake, even is you lack desire, then it seems that you would continue that pattern even after recovering from child birth. 

If you find yourself no longer desiring sex with your husband AND feeling that you don't want to make love with him in order to fulfill his needs . . . then it's time to have an honest conversation with yourself (and your husband) about what is going on. 

Parenthood is a big change for some people. In your case, you will also be giving up your job outside the home. Don't underestimate the adjustments these changes can take, even if they are changes you are joyful about. 

Congratulations, and best wishes for smooth sailing.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Regarding the whole sex because I provided you an above average lifestyle thing. It really depends on your spouses personality. I can honestly say that my wife does not punish me for the decrease in attention she receives because I run a business. She sees my efforts to build a business as another way of me honoring her and the kids. In other words she realizes that I do what I do because I love her.

But....not every wife is like mine. I think today's men _and_ women are stuck on this whole have it all myth. Honestly there has to be trade offs. 

In a perfect world both spouses would understand that the sacrifice of staying at home or working to support the family, is really just another way of saying I love you.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

techmom said:


> Men can't earn their way into more passionate sex, either the lady feels it or she doesn't. That is the truth, men have been trying to earn sex for all time. A woman's desire is not like a bubble gum ball machine where you put coins (earnings ) into the slot then it pushes out gumballs (sex). Women are more complex than that, the key is to find out if the lady's interest in sex is as high as yours. Don't go into marriage thinking that the sex will get better, it won't.
> 
> Household tasks are in the same category, you can't earn your way into sex through being her butler. Men don't get it. Remember the girl who gave it up on the first date, then you dumped her afterwards because you thought she was "easy"? That could have been your HD wife you would have been banging way into your 60's. Why do men go for the girl who is difficult with sex? There are more than a few threads on TAM where the guy had a girl who showed little interest in sex in the beginning but the guy married her thinking that she was going to improve after the ring when on. I see it time and time again in real life, men see women who like lots of sex (and partners) and they shun them thinking that the girl who shows LD traits is the better mate because they won't cheat on them. Then they end up in sexless marriages.
> 
> Women are taught to believe that men don't want to marry "easy" women. Men think "easy" women will cheat on them. We need to change our views on sex before we can solve these recurring problems in marriage.


The first paragraph I totally agree with. I would go a step further. Not only does the lady feel it or not, but she knows pretty early on whether she ever will. The implication (IMO) is that women who tell their husbands "well if you were to do more of XYZ the sex would be better" or "I'm trying to save some stuff for marriage" are pretty much just looking to manipulate their men. The women who do this are of low character and should not be accomodated in their requests.

On that second paragraph I'm not so sure. I think men who are dating shy away from women who have sex early in the relationship out of a sense of clinginess and a need to latch onto someone. A self-confident, capable woman who chooses to have sex with you early on is WAY hot. I've had both and know the difference.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

mrsball said:


> What about the hard-working husband who puts all his time and effort into his work and thinks that providing for his family in this way means he shouldn't have to also meet his wife's emotional or sexual needs? Or that the work leaves him so stressed he's not interested in sex? The husband who thinks that a roof over their heads and food on the table = job done?


That would be a non-starter as well. Fortunately, I think that is much more rare than the woman who feels entitled to be supported and not having sex should not impact the attention level a woman gets from her man.

I am proud to say that I am not that way, and I do not know one man who is that way. Unfortunately, I know several women who believe that the man should go out and serve the wife even if he gets nothing in return.


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## Michelleinmichigan (Jun 26, 2013)

committed4ever said:


> For me, there is nothing my H can do in the house that would lead to more sex (not that he doesn't get all he wants any way). But caring for the house is my domain because truthfully he really is "in charge" in the marriage. Caring for the inside of the house is where I rule. I handle the cooking cleaning and laundry. I know that might seem like, oh you're a cook, laundress and housekeeper but it work for me and for him. That may change after I have the baby but that the way it is now. I work too but H handle the bills (all money in one pot) he take care of fixing things and the outside of the house, and the cars. I won't be working after I have the baby.


I think you are a wise woman.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

momtwo4 said:


> I'm sorry, I really disagree with this here. You make it sound like a LD person will not change unless you somehow prod them out of their muddy hole with a pitchfork. Some people simply want to change because they want to be BETTER people. A healthy marriage is not a bargaining table.


I think what you said might be true very, very occassionally. But, for most couples, it simply does not work out that way. The ladies either think they have their guys in pocket and there is no price to be paid for sexual refusal, or they are just getting what they can out of it - knowing that when the guy gets serious about getting his needs met they are out the door.

LD and HD people alike overwhelmingly understand that a healthy, satisfying sex life is essential to a happy, enduring marriage. And, both further understand that a healthy, satisfying sex life generally does not mean an occassional quickie or gritting your teeth and bearing it.

A truly caring LD person would not let the marriage fall into this sort of pit in the first place. The issue of having to prod someone like that to change would be moot.


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## committed4ever (Nov 13, 2012)

GettingIt said:


> Low hormones affecting drive is one thing, relationship issues affecting drive is another.
> 
> If indeed your drive takes a dive after you become a mother, my advice would be to make sure you are staying in tune with WHY. If you are accustomed to having sex with your husband for his sake, even is you lack desire, then it seems that you would continue that pattern even after recovering from child birth.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your reply. Does a woman really get LD from something in the relationship? Or does she just lose desire for her SO, but not necessary lose desire altogether? I would think the latter.

Anyway, for the bold part I don't think I'm underestimating. I was looking forward and joyful but after reading so many horror story here on TAM i am actually very concerned -- okay scared and worried - LOL -- about the changes and transition. I'm looking forward to my little girl and that part haven't changed. But the thought of the transition, sex life, SAHM, is now stressing me out! I guess it something every couple have to go through it and deal with it, because there is no way around it (the transtion part).


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

No man has ever 100% financially supported me, yet I have always wanted to have sex with men.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

GettingIt said:


> I think intimacy can be damaged in so many ways--I don't put all the blame on my husband at all. It takes two.
> 
> I've been thinking of a better way to frame this, and here is an analogy that sort of works:
> 
> ...


Pearls of wisdom, and even more valuable because you have a woman directly in the situation (not a man, and not a women offering advice in the abstract) saying essentially "if my husband had not imposed consequences for my behavior, I would not have changed".

While I'm sorry you had to go through this, I must say your husband is a lucky man to be with someone who (1) saw that she issues to overcome and (2) actually bothered to put in the hard work to do it.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Woodchuck Don't leave us hanging! What did you and your wife do to improve things?


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

committed4ever said:


> Thanks for your reply. Does a woman really get LD from something in the relationship? Or does she just lose desire for her SO, but not necessary lose desire altogether? I would think the latter.
> 
> Anyway, for the bold part I don't think I'm underestimating. I was looking forward and joyful but after reading so many horror story here on TAM i am actually very concerned -- okay scared and worried - LOL -- about the changes and transition. I'm looking forward to my little girl and that part haven't changed. But the thought of the transition, sex life, SAHM, is now stressing me out! I guess it something every couple have to go through it and deal with it, because there is no way around it (the transtion part).


Don't let stories on TAM scare you. You are lucky to be exposed to these stories. I wish I had come here BEFORE I started to have problems. I've learned a lot here. 

In my case, I still had sexual desire. I still masturbated, had an active imagination for fantasy, looked at porn, and wanted sex with my husband a few times a month around the hormone surge at ovulation. It was resentment that prevented me from feeling desire for my husband more regularly. Resentment had become my go-to emotion when it came to dealing with our problems. I didn't see it then, but I realize it now. 

Don't let the upcoming changes stress you out. Just be aware that sometimes life changes come with bumps. Keep them in perspective as bumps, and deal with them as they come. Don't ever sweep your feelings under the rug for the sake of your children or your husband, and treat the intimacy in your marriage as carefully and with as much love and reverence as you treat your baby girl.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

DTO 
Please correct me Gettingit if i have this wrong. I believe her point is that the LD partner needs to find the solution within herself given that relationship problems are solved. 

My solution is to be open to arousal. I don't feel desire on my own, except for during 3 consecutive days during the month. That would not be enough for my HD husband. 

I need to empty my mind of daily concerns and concentrate of sex with my husband to be able to desire sex. My enjoyment of sex is equal to his. We arrive in the same place by different routes.

Desire may not be spontaneous for some women. However, they can probably decide be aroused and desire sex. Not all LD people are like this I think since we are all so different. 

I strongly agree with Gettingit. It is up to the many LD partners to go inside and fix the problem. I don't think that threats or doing chores will help. If there are relationship problems or sexual satisfaction problems then those need to be solved as well. 

I am certain it is complex and unique to each couple. The degree to which is solved is up to both. Some aspects can be solved by both, and for some, it takes work by one person. It depends on the nature of the problems.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

DTO said:


> LD and HD people alike overwhelmingly understand that a healthy, satisfying sex life is essential to a happy, enduring marriage. And, both further understand that a healthy, satisfying sex life generally does not mean an occassional quickie or gritting your teeth and bearing it.


I would not count on the above being the case with many HD or LD people; from the entitled IT professional HD who could not comprehend why his wife was not the star of 50 Shades to your vanilla flavored "I got what I want live with it" LD... It does not look like they get it. I'm sure they agree with the statement if a TV pollster calls at night, but whether they think its a good idea for their relationship, I am not quite sure.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

mrsball said:


> What about the hard-working husband who puts all his time and effort into his work and thinks that providing for his family in this way means he shouldn't have to also meet his wife's emotional or sexual needs? *Or that the work leaves him so stressed he's not interested in sex? The husband who thinks that a roof over their heads and food on the table = job done?
> Posted via Mobile Device*


*

eh,  that husband sounded like me, years ago. Still kicking myself for allowing that to have happened. Yes, being a good provider is important. But showing to our wives that we still desire them sexually, I found out, very important for _their_ feeling of self-worth and self-confidence. We weren't good at communicating back then, I had trouble understanding and she had trouble expressing. But it's getting better now, as we got a frequency we both accept. I made more effort to be attentive, and she made efforts to be more clear with what she wanted.*


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

Lionlady said:


> The OP assumes that men always want sex more than women. In my 20 year relationship, there have been times when my husband wanted sex more and times when I wanted sex more. I don't think that during either of those times either one of us felt we "deserved" more sex...at least I didn't. Why would I want to have sex with someone who was just doing it because he felt it was owed to me? Yuck. That didn't mean I didn't get mad or get upset, but I didn't feel that I was "owed" sex for being a good wife.
> 
> I think that if you are in a marriage where you are looking at sex as a bargaining tool, something is inherently wrong with your marriage. I would wonder what a man was like outside of the bedroom who believed he "deserved" sex for paying the bills and being "decent." Maybe you picked a woman who isn't interested in sex or maybe you're not turning your wife on, but I don't think duty sex is the answer. You might as well divorced your wife and pay a prostitute.


You are correct, in a marriage where sex is freely given and received there is no need for bargaining......

In a marriage, two people of their own volition stand side by side in a public place and vow to their deity, the civil authority, family and friends, to live as a couple and to be sexually exclusive.

For as long as they both shall live....

What happens if after a period of time one party, for no discernible reason makes the unilateral decision that sex is suddenly off the table......

Think for a moment....What if I told you that starting tomorrow morning, you would live the rest of your life without having sex EVER AGAIN.........Not for the rest of the week....not till your mate comes back from a business trip....Forever......

What if you are a relatively young person, say 35, and you are made to believe by your mates words and actions that sex between the two of you is a thing of the past....

And you have vowed to forsake all others.....

Imagine you are in this sexless marriage, and every day you break bread with this person, every night you disrobe, lie down, and sleep with this person....

Imagine wanting sex (and intimacy) with increasing urgency as the days and weeks pass, yet your mate turns a blind eye to your needs......

You attempt to communicate and get....NOTHING...

Tears, cold silence, or even worse, the hint that sex might be forthcoming.......But nothing....

To make matters worse, while you are living this sexless half life, you are supporting your partner in a comfortable lifestyle, provide all that is necessary and more, allowing her to be a free, liberated, modern woman and you can see that your partner is *blissfully happy*......

Is it out of the realm of possibility that such a husband might begin to think "if I work hard enough, buy her more, give more, perhaps she will see how much I love her and relent".........(bargaining).

And is it out of the realm of possibility that this husband might think, after loving, nurturing and providing, and after haven sworn an oath......that it is somehow part of their mutual agreement, (her duty), to have sex with him.......

Is this husband YUCK....?

good luck
The YUCKY old woodchuck


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

techmom said:


> My view is this, you can't make a woman desire sex through any technique such as the MMSLP, the 180, filing for divorce. Those things actually cause her to give up sex in fear of losing the relationship, not because she is genuinely feeling desire. The poster "trickster" has a thread called "giving up having sex with my wife" where the wife gives him sex when he wants it. He's still unhappy because it is duty sex and it does nothing for her, and is contemplating divorce anyway. He wants something from her that she is not able to give, genuine passionate sex. Although she is giving sex out of love for him it is not enough. She even offered to have him take a girlfriend but he refused that too.
> 
> That thread breaks my heart as an LD because as a person who wants to please my SO and wants to reduce the amount of rejections, what should I do? This is like fulfilling a primal need that I cannot fill because I don't have the tools (desire). Talking about the quantity vs quality, there should be other outlets for men to get their emotional needs met. Women have plenty of other outlets for emotional release. Men are expected to just stuff their emotions inside and the only release is during sex.
> 
> ...


I agree you can't make anyone want sex with any of those programs. I say as much when I post on the topic. The point of doing that mainly is to improve oneself. It's like "having a good sex life with my sposue is 'Plan A'. If that's not happening, I will move on to 'Plan B' and be fulfilled elsewhere". Sitting there and feeling bad does nothing to help me or the situation.

A spouse feeling pressured to do better is an important but secondary consideration. But, the only reason that would happen is she knows she is getting something valuable from me that is now as risk. So, if she is "feeling the heat" - well, good!

Even at that, my intent would not be to just suck it up and have sex. Rather, it would be to (1) admit a part in the problem, and (2) do what is needed to be able to enthusiastically participate in a satisfying (for frequency, variety, etc.) sex life.

I think everyone (unless disabled) is capable of such a sex life. Those who choose to not participate seem to have some sort of learned sexual hangup or other issue of their own doing. 

So, for the second part of your post, I think you misunderstand the issue. It is not a man vs. woman thing; it is an "intimate vs. non-intimate needs" thing. Marriage typically means that sex is reserved for your spouse only. If you are such an LD woman, you need to keep in mind that your emotional needs, being less-reliant on sex, are thus less-reliant on your marriage than that of your husband.

I would say that if you are having a problem like the gentleman whose wife puts out but is not into it, don't just put out. Figure out why your drive has tanked and figure that problem out.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

john117 said:


> Drumroll..... If our theory is correct most people will go for Wife Two... Why, he said? BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE RISK AVERSE... They don't want to, actually hate losing more than they enjoy winning... The fear of losing i.e. being cheated on is much higher than the pleasure of higher quality sex...



I chose door #2..., A 25 year old virgin.

My dad was a cheater. While in the Navy, most of my shipmates wife's cheated (the hubbies did too while overseas, My gf' were HD and I knew that weren't waiting for me until my ship came in Then I was dumped by a HD woman when I wanted to get emotionally close.

So I met a 25 year old Jewish virgin and 25 years later, she is very LD. I know she will never have an affair. I didn't want to be cheated on.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

Woodchuck said:


> You are correct, in a marriage where sex is freely given and received there is no need for bargaining......
> 
> In a marriage, two people of their own volition stand side by side in a public place and vow to their deity, the civil authority, family and friends, to live as a couple and to be sexually exclusive.
> 
> ...


I don't think this husband is "YUCK." The scenario above made me very sad. Like I've said before, this is really a form of emotional abuse. As a LD individual who cares about her husband, it's hard to imagine a spouse coldly ignoring his/her husband/wife with absolutely no desire to change at all. 

I just don't think it's going to make any difference to bargain/threaten a LD individual. It's not going to touch the core of the problem if a spouse does not truly want to change.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

DTO said:


> I think what you said might be true very, very occassionally. But, for most couples, it simply does not work out that way. The ladies either think they have their guys in pocket and there is no price to be paid for sexual refusal, or they are just getting what they can out of it - knowing that when the guy gets serious about getting his needs met they are out the door.
> 
> LD and HD people alike overwhelmingly understand that a healthy, satisfying sex life is essential to a happy, enduring marriage. And, both further understand that a healthy, satisfying sex life generally does not mean an occassional quickie or gritting your teeth and bearing it.
> 
> A truly caring LD person would not let the marriage fall into this sort of pit in the first place. The issue of having to prod someone like that to change would be moot.


Maybe so. I'm just speaking from my personal experience as a LD person, and my belief that most people do not want to selfishly hurt those they love most. 

Let me just say that I changed because I truly wanted to. And it's an ongoing process. I still don't have hardly any drive, but I'm making an effort to have more spontaneous, fun, and connected sex with my husband. I imagined my husband and I as an older couple (we are in our early-thirties now) and the regret I would someday feel if I did not love this man to the best of my ability. 

For me, bargaining and threatening would have just made me more angry and resentful. In my dark moments, I sometimes wondered if our marriage was worth it. I honestly pondered if I wanted to put forth the effort toward the sexual part of our relationship or if we'd just be better off divorcing so he could find someone better able to meet his sexual needs. Sadly, if he would have threatened divorce, I'd have probably gone for it. 

I definitely agree with your second and third paragraph.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> DTO
> Please correct me Gettingit if i have this wrong. I believe her point is that the LD partner needs to find the solution within herself given that relationship problems are solved.
> 
> My solution is to be open to arousal. I don't feel desire on my own, except for during 3 consecutive days during the month. That would not be enough for my HD husband.
> ...


Yes, I don't think it can be overstated that the situations for LD/HD match ups are varied and complex, and that there is no one size fits all solution. 

I fixed my LD not just for my marriage, but for *me*. LD was not my normal state. In "fixing" my LD, I didn't learn to find a way to be open to my husband's needs, I returned to a state in which frequent sex in order to establish and maintain emotional intimacy was MY need as well. 

While I find it exhilarating and fulfilling to be in a relationship where our needs and desires are so closely aligned, I feel more vulnerable that I ever felt in my LD years--because now that I have skin in the game, I also have something to lose.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

GettingIt said:


> I fixed my LD not just for my marriage, but for *me*. LD was not my normal state. In "fixing" my LD, I didn't learn to find a way to be open to my husband's needs, I returned to a state in which frequent sex in order to establish and maintain emotional intimacy was MY need as well.
> 
> While I find it exhilarating and fulfilling to be in a relationship where our needs and desires are so closely aligned, I feel more vulnerable that I ever felt in my LD years--because now that I have skin in the game, I also have something to lose.


That's the place I want to get to as well. I'm not there yet, but it gives me hope. Thanks for sharing!


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

momtwo4 said:


> Maybe so. I'm just speaking from my personal experience as a LD person, and my belief that most people do not want to selfishly hurt those they love most.
> 
> Let me just say that I changed because I truly wanted to. And it's an ongoing process. I still don't have hardly any drive, but I'm making an effort to have more spontaneous, fun, and connected sex with my husband. I imagined my husband and I as an older couple (we are in our early-thirties now) and the regret I would someday feel if I did not love this man to the best of my ability.
> 
> ...


You and I have amazingly similar outlooks on this issue. 

I have a question: were you ever HD (with your husband or in any past relationships?), or have you always considered yourself LD? 

I ask because I was HD who went to LD due to relationship issues. I worked to get my HD back, not just to learn to overcome a persistent LD state. I think I have it easier now than someone who truly has a much lower drive.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

GettingIt said:


> You and I have amazingly similar outlooks on this issue.
> 
> I have a question: were you ever HD (with your husband or in any past relationships?), or have you always considered yourself LD?
> 
> I ask because I was HD who went to LD due to relationship issues. I worked to get my HD back, not just to learn to overcome a persistent LD state. I think I have it easier now than someone who truly has a much lower drive.


I've been thinking about that. I've always had trouble climaxing so I definitely think that influences my desire. I will say I had more drive when we were dating. And it wasn't because I was trying to "hook" my husband. I'm being honest here. I remember definitely feeling aroused and wanting to move forward physically even quicker than my husband did. I will say there was definitely more foreplay then. Now it's just straight to the act (we're both aware of it and working on it).

So I know I at least have SOME drive, but I don't know if I've ever been HD. I will say that my drive sunk to the lowest level ever after my fourth child was born. He was colicky and woke up numerous times during the night until he was at least a year. He's two now, but I was TRULY just exhausted. I had four kids six and under. I was touched all day, and I didn't want to be touched by my husband. Selfish I know. Now that the baby is two, I feel like I'm remembering what it's like to be a woman again (not just a diaper changer). 

On top of my exhaustion, I was battling some resentment/anger toward my husband. I had reason for some of it, but some of my anger was completely unfair.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> DTO did you discuss your expectation with your wife before you both agreed that she would stay home to take care of house and kids? If you were not explicit, why not?
> 
> Wouldn't that be a covert agreement? One person hides an important expectation expecting the other to guess it.
> 
> ...


Actually, I had no such expectation of my wife. I wanted to make this a general discussion on guys who pull most of the weight financially still feeling shortchanged in bed. I feel the discussion is relevant whether the wives don't work, keep their earnings, volunteer, etc.

We did have an express (overt) agreement after we bought our home that, since I worked more hours and had a longer commute, she would pick up more of the child care. That was promptly ignored by her. Big surprise, huh?

I agree everyone values their role differently and sometimes a compromise is in order. The question is how to achieve a compromise on all these issues that works for both spouses, or sometimes it is whether such a compromise can be reached at all. I was hoping that getting this thread going might tease out some answers to those questions.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

momtwo4 said:


> I've been thinking about that. I've always had trouble climaxing so I definitely think that influences my desire. I will say I had more drive when we were dating. And it wasn't because I was trying to "hook" my husband. I'm being honest here. I remember definitely feeling aroused and wanting to move forward physically even quicker than my husband did. I will say there was definitely more foreplay then. Now it's just straight to the act (we're both aware of it and working on it).
> 
> So I know I at least have SOME drive, but I don't know if I've ever been HD. I will say that my drive sunk to the lowest level ever after my fourth child was born. He was colicky and woke up numerous times during the night until he was at least a year. He's two now, but I was TRULY just exhausted. I had four kids six and under. I was touched all day, and I didn't want to be touched by my husband. Selfish I know. Now that the baby is two, I feel like I'm remembering what it's like to be a woman again (not just a diaper changer).
> 
> On top of my exhaustion, I was battling some resentment/anger toward my husband. I had reason for some of it, but some of my anger was completely unfair.


Thank you for sharing.

Based on your experience, would you say it is a good idea to explore expectations for sex and intimacy before having a child? I would certainly say it is, and serious disagreement is a good reason to refuse to have more children.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

momtwo4 said:


> I've been thinking about that. I've always had trouble climaxing so I definitely think that influences my desire. I will say I had more drive when we were dating. And it wasn't because I was trying to "hook" my husband. I'm being honest here. I remember definitely feeling aroused and wanting to move forward physically even quicker than my husband did. I will say there was definitely more foreplay then. Now it's just straight to the act (we're both aware of it and working on it).
> 
> So I know I at least have SOME drive, but I don't know if I've ever been HD. I will say that my drive sunk to the lowest level ever after my fourth child was born. He was colicky and woke up numerous times during the night until he was at least a year. He's two now, but I was TRULY just exhausted. I had four kids six and under. I was touched all day, and I didn't want to be touched by my husband. Selfish I know. Now that the baby is two, I feel like I'm remembering what it's like to be a woman again (not just a diaper changer).
> 
> On top of my exhaustion, I was battling some resentment/anger toward my husband. I had reason for some of it, but some of my anger was completely unfair.


Ah yes, our stories do have a lot in common--especially the being touched all day and the exhaustion. You start to feel like everyone is a needy taker--kids, husbands, you name it. I can remember just wanting to take a shower without someone needing something . . . and my husband standing outside the bathroom door with the screaming baby, just so I would hear her and hurry up. And so the resentment began . . .

Resentment is so toxic. Good on you for recognizing that. I think it's not an easy think to admit to for women--the harboring of resentment. Once it's recognized, named, and owned, however, I think it can be conquered forever.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

DTO said:


> Thank you for sharing.
> 
> Based on your experience, would you say it is a good idea to explore expectations for sex and intimacy before having a child? I would certainly say it is, and serious disagreement is a good reason to refuse to have more children.


Yes. Looking back, I think we might at least space our children a little further apart. We both wanted a big family, but I think we underestimated how hard it would really be. Lack of sex is probably one major reason many men don't want more children! 

I know some women will disagree with me, but babies and small children DO make it difficult to find intimate moments. Fortunately, both my husband and I love kids, and we both agree (we've discussed this) that it was one of the main reasons we wanted to get married. 

At the same time, I didn't realize just how low my drive would plummet. Post-partem depression didn't help. If physical intimacy is low before having a baby, it won't get any better, that's for sure.


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## eyuop (Apr 7, 2013)

momtwo4 said:


> I really agree with this post. What it comes down to is that you cannot force your wife to WANT to have sex with you. That is only a decision she can make. No amount of bargaining, threatening, witholding money, etc... is going to make it happen. OK, I take that back. Maybe the threats, ultimatums, whatever, will temporarily shock/scare her into having more enthusiastic sex, but it will not be sincere and there will most likely be some deep resentment sprouting. And it is not going to last.
> 
> You can certainly communicate that you are unhappy and that you want to work together to improve your relationship. Ask your wife is she is happy and what you can do to make her more fulfilled (and I'm not talking about money either). You can share that you are NOT happy and that you really need more physical intimacy. How can you work on your relationship and each other's deepest needs together? That should be the focus.
> 
> ...


Here is the hard part with communication: If I communicate to my wife (in the most loving, gentle way) that I want to have a great sex life with her she immediately assumes that I'm blaming her for not having one (gets defensive), and feels like a failure. She often says, "Here I thought things were going so well with our sex life and then you tell me it isn't good enough. What I'm hearing is that I'm not good enough." 

Since her love language is "words of affirmation", this sort of communication is like poison to our relationship. Basically my communication with her (to be affective) must always encourage and affirm; and if I ever even slightly mention something that might be able to improve she takes it as a negative criticism. This will always backfire on me.

Just something I've observed in my own relationship.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

DTO said:


> I wanted to make this a general discussion on guys who pull most of the weight financially still feeling shortchanged in bed. I feel the discussion is relevant whether the wives don't work, keep their earnings, volunteer, etc.


Personally, I find this intimacy-as-currency attitude an extreme turn-off. I've never actually had the experience of being supported financially before, but if my SO we're to suggest that I owe him sex because he makes more money, I'd tell him to go and just get himself a prostitute,as that seems to be what he is looking for.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

I would like to commend the women on this board who recognize the effect resentment has had on their relationships...

I personally think resentment is the most toxic element in a marriage. 

It is often hidden so deep beneath the surface, even the resentful party doesn't acknowledge it, and yet it is there, festering and dripping it's toxin into the bloodstream of the relationship....

To recognize that you have resentments, and that they are damaging to your marriage shows true introspection and an earnest desire to make your marriage work.....

After all, what more can a marriage partner want, than a spouse who honestly wants to make the relationship better........

My hat is off to you ladies....Kudos....:smthumbup:

the woodchuck


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

committed4ever said:


> I'm almost afraid to even post on this thread -- everyone seem so season with this issue.
> 
> I read everything I come across regarding this topic on TAM, because I am SO AFRAID of where my sex drive will be after pregnancey (due Sept 30th). I have read so much on TAM about losing it, and I've talk to my sisters who both lost it and didn't get it back until they stop breastfeeding.
> 
> ...


Having a drop in desire after delivery is NOT a given....My wife got pregnant immediately after our wedding, and we had good sex right up till the night her water broke....After delivery, we could not keep our hands off each other, and finally collided after 5 weeks.....It was wonderful.......

One of her fondest memories is a few weeks after delivery, she was VERY sore due to stiches....I put some towels under her bottom, and gently drizzled warm water onto her poor sore vagina...It helped the soreness a lot, but got her soooo turned on she almost couldn't stand it...I think we might have rubbed out a tiny little "O" despite Dr.'s orders...At any rate, for us sex did not slow down one bit....Hope this gives you some encouragement.....

good luck
the woodchuck


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Michelleinmichigan said:


> A healthy couple's relationship should not revolve around sex, if it does, it will fizzle and die. Sex in marriage should be icing on the cake. Two people who appreciate each other, understand each other better than anyone else, are best friends, have each others backs, forgive each others weaknesses, will have great sex.





Cletus said:


> Lord, if I read that quote again I'm going to puke. It's an idea carried around here like a bad virus.
> 
> Two people can have all of those things together and still have a mind-numbingly boring sex life. Those things you mention are a necessary but utterly insufficient ingredient to a great sex life. A good sex life also needs two people who are fundamentally interested in sex, and that does not come guaranteed with all of those other qualities.


:iagree: In your case, I totally understand why that idea is considered bad virus to you, Mr. Cletus..


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## committed4ever (Nov 13, 2012)

Woodchuck said:


> Having a drop in desire after delivery is NOT a given....My wife got pregnant immediately after our wedding, and we had good sex right up till the night her water broke....After delivery, we could not keep our hands off each other, and finally collided after 5 weeks.....It was wonderful.......
> 
> One of her fondest memories is a few weeks after delivery, she was VERY sore due to stiches....I put some towels under her bottom, and gently drizzled warm water onto her poor sore vagina...It helped the soreness a lot, but got her soooo turned on she almost couldn't stand it...I think we might have rubbed out a tiny little "O" despite Dr.'s orders...At any rate, for us sex did not slow down one bit....Hope this gives you some encouragement.....
> 
> ...


Thanks Woodchuck that really does help to know that someone came out of pregnancy and didn't lose her drive. I really been worried about it. I was actually going to ask my H what if that happen but I decided that wasn't a good idea.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Woodchuck said:


> I would like to commend the women on this board who recognize the effect resentment has had on their relationships...
> 
> I personally think resentment is the most toxic element in a marriage.
> 
> ...


It does take deep, honest and sometimes uncomfortable introspection--an activity that too few people, in my opinion, engage in. Again, I deeply believe that having an intentional and active awareness of the SELF--nurtured with regular meditation and reflection--is a true requirement in the quest to have a deep relationship with another individual. 

My advice for almost anyone on these forums:
If you feel at the end of your rope with your partner, turn your gaze inward. You might be surprised at what you find.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

techmom said:


> My view is this, you can't make a woman desire sex through any technique such as the MMSLP, the 180, filing for divorce. _Posted via Mobile Device_


I actually found some of the things in MMSLP and No More Mr. Nice Guy to be helpful in both our relationship and our sex life. Certain behaviors of mine turned her off, so by switching them, it helped turn her on a bit. There are actions that I can take that really rev her up. 

It certainly seems that a sexless marriage born out of a lack of respect can be helped by these approaches. But I do agree that it takes two, and a man changing his behavior alone will very often not be enough.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Whats a subservient cuckhold worth?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

eyuop said:


> Here is the hard part with communication: If I communicate to my wife (in the most loving, gentle way) that I want to have a great sex life with her she immediately assumes that I'm blaming her for not having one (gets defensive), and feels like a failure. She often says, "Here I thought things were going so well with our sex life and then you tell me it isn't good enough. What I'm hearing is that I'm not good enough."
> 
> Since her love language is "words of affirmation", this sort of communication is like poison to our relationship. Basically my communication with her (to be affective) must always encourage and affirm; and if I ever even slightly mention something that might be able to improve she takes it as a negative criticism. This will always backfire on me.
> 
> Just something I've observed in my own relationship.


Bravo!

Exactly what happens to me too. My wife will almost never tell me that she wishes I would improve some part of my personality, even when I'm being a right jackass and desperately need a slap to the side of the head. She would rather courageously ignore the problem, and expects the same consideration from me. "If you can't say something nice..."


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

always_alone said:


> Personally, I find this intimacy-as-currency attitude an extreme turn-off. I've never actually had the experience of being supported financially before, but if my SO we're to suggest that I owe him sex because he makes more money, I'd tell him to go and just get himself a prostitute,as that seems to be what he is looking for.


Do you extend this notion to every aspect of your relationships?

Do you ever do something for your spouse that you don't really want to do, but you feel you should because he's been a good husband and provider and sacrificed for your comfort? 

If the answer is no, I'd be a little surprised, and wonder how you ever effectively express gratitude. If the answer is yes, then why wouldn't one of the natural rewards for being that kind of husband include sex, of a variety or time not necessarily of your choosing? 

Why is a kiss on a the cheek, an affectionate hug at the door, or a warm breakfast on the table a perfectly acceptable way of showing thanks but a hot shagging bent over the washing machine isn't?


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## Work-In-Progress (May 21, 2013)

committed4ever said:


> Thanks Woodchuck that really does help to know that someone came out of pregnancy and didn't lose her drive. I really been worried about it. I was actually going to ask my H what if that happen but I decided that wasn't a good idea.


I wouldn't think you need to worry much. You are aware of the potential problem, and seem determined to do your best to not become the LD person that everyone else on here complains about. All of our other LD SO's on here don't see a problem and seem to care less about making improvements in sex. Like with alcoholics, recognizing the problem is the first important step that you already grasp if it does happen.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

committed4ever said:


> Thanks Woodchuck that really does help to know that someone came out of pregnancy and didn't lose her drive. I really been worried about it. I was actually going to ask my H what if that happen but I decided that wasn't a good idea.


I've read quite a few posts, a husband is lucky to have a wife's attitude like yours.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

always_alone said:


> Personally, I find this intimacy-as-currency attitude an extreme turn-off. I've never actually had the experience of being supported financially before, but if my SO we're to suggest that I owe him sex because he makes more money, I'd tell him to go and just get himself a prostitute,as that seems to be what he is looking for.


I don't think that is the thought process. Rather, it is about one partner doing everything they can to meet their perception of the needs of their partner, and expecting that their partner will meet their needs in return. So while it can come across as crass and commercial, I don't think it is meant to be quite so transactional.


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## TeaLeaves4 (Feb 19, 2010)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I don't think that is the thought process. Rather, it is about one partner doing everything they can to meet their perception of the needs of their partner, and expecting that their partner will meet their needs in return. So while it can come across as crass and commercial, I don't think it is meant to be quite so transactional.


I think it may be meant that way by some! And it is a turn off. 

I believe somewhere on here on this thread or maybe another (don't have time to search for it now), but a comment was made that men still tend to earn more than women, so they're the big providers, therefore things are due them. 

Hmmm.... I happen to make more money than my H. We both have masters degrees, but at this time I simply have a higher earning job. Does that mean I'm due some extras from him? More talking time, more backrubs, more oral.... No. I would NEVER even breathe that to my H. I wouldn't treat him that way. I do my job because I have to help support my family.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

TeaLeaves4 said:


> I think it may be meant that way by some! And it is a turn off.
> 
> I believe somewhere on here on this thread or maybe another (don't have time to search for it now), but a comment was made that men still tend to earn more than women, so they're the big providers, therefore things are due them.
> 
> ...


:iagree:

I totally don't understand this "I bring in income so she should give me sex" mentality. 

Especially since so many women work these days and also contribute to the finances in part, equally, or even more than the H does. It's insulting to all those women who are not SAHM's that some men think bringing home the bacon entitles them to anything but bacon. And it's insulting to men to diminish their sexuality to money.

We work so that we can afford what we need or want now and for the future.

We clean the house because it needs to be cleaned. We do laundry, grocery shopping, cooking, child care, yard work, home repair, auto repair, etc., because it needs to be done.

These are baseline tasks that everyone, married or single, needs to do in order to live life. We all do these things anyway and have to with or without sex. You can create a lot of resentment for not doing those things and that can destabilize the good feelings and good will partners have toward each other, which resentment can lead to problems in the bedroom. But it's just a baseline for living together and sharing a home and life, not a formula for sexual fulfillment.

Bringing in an income or doing any of these baseline chores does not _entitle _the other person to sex. Sex is personal. Sex is a physical, mental or emotional desire, or all three. It's impacted by physical, mental, or emotional states.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

TeaLeaves4 said:


> I think it may be meant that way by some! And it is a turn off.
> 
> I believe somewhere on here on this thread or maybe another (don't have time to search for it now), but a comment was made that men still tend to earn more than women, so they're the big providers, therefore things are due them.
> 
> ...


Perhaps that is the case for some. But I don't think it is meant that way for many. So I wanted to provide another perspective, noting that perhaps their meaning got lost while trying to explain it. I guess it comes down to whether a person in their personal circumstances wants to give their spouse the benefit of the doubt or not.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

norajane said:


> It's insulting to all those women who are not SAHM's that some men think bringing home the bacon entitles them to anything but bacon.


It's insulting to SAHM's, too.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Perhaps that is the case for some. But I don't think it is meant that way for many. So I wanted to provide another perspective, noting that perhaps their meaning got lost while trying to explain it. I guess it comes down to whether a person in their personal circumstances wants to give their spouse the benefit of the doubt or not.



What if we rephrase: "It is heartbreaking for a man, if, after doing his best to become a good provider and to show love and affection, his wife still does not love him enough to make passionate love to him on a mutually acceptable frequency.." What about that, Mr. AVerage Guy, does it make sense?


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

GettingIt said:


> It's insulting to SAHM's, too.


:iagree: Very.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

norajane said:


> We work so that we can afford what we need or want now and for the future.
> 
> We clean the house because it needs to be cleaned. We do laundry, grocery shopping, cooking, child care, yard work, home repair, auto repair, etc., because it needs to be done.
> 
> ...



--Sounds like we're back to the question of whether sex is the icing on the cake in a marriage or whether is is a more fundamental (baseline) part of the recipe like sugar. 

I don't think HD and LD people are ever going to agree on this.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

GettingIt said:


> It's insulting to SAHM's, too.


Yes, very true! It's insulting to _everyone_!


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I don't think that is the thought process. Rather, it is about one partner doing everything they can to meet their perception of the needs of their partner, and expecting that their partner will meet their needs in return. So while it can come across as crass and commercial, I don't think it is meant to be quite so transactional.


You are absolutely right, but women of a certain mindset are more than willing to see and condemn it as transactional and making the woman into a prostitute, so they can dodge any implication of being obligated in any way to have sex with a man........Convoluted and wrong headed as it may be.....

the woodchuck


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

That's because sex isn't an obligation. Sex is fun, pleasure, excitement, raw, emotional, bonding, passionate, wild, loving, sharing...a lot of things. 

If you are at the point where you see it as an obligation, you're doing it wrong or you've gone down the wrong road with your partner. Or both.

Does anyone really want their partner to have sex out a sense of obligation? There are few things worse, IMO.


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## salamander (Apr 2, 2013)

Woodchuck said:


> I would like to commend the women on this board who recognize the effect resentment has had on their relationships...
> 
> I personally think resentment is the most toxic element in a marriage.
> 
> ...


I agree with this train of thought. Resentment began to build and nearly destroyed my marriage. Then I read that essay I'm constantly sharing, "When you use feelings of disappointment to manipulate someone into giving you your way, you program yourself to relate with your experience as a defeat. This costs you your freedom.

Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/857037"

Only when I realized my dissatisfaction was MY dissatisfaction could I have the freedom and empowerment to adjust my own attitude.

A relationship is a system. If one cog in the machine changes, the entire system has to adjust. When I changed my attitude to one of appreciation and "fixing myself instead of changing my man", WHAT? My man changed himself, coming into alignment with his new and improved, gracious wife.

Now, you can't go into it planning it to be just another manipulation tactic. You have to go into self improvement wholeheartedly, as GettingIt has described her journey.


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## salamander (Apr 2, 2013)

committed4ever said:


> Thanks Woodchuck that really does help to know that someone came out of pregnancy and didn't lose her drive. I really been worried about it. I was actually going to ask my H what if that happen but I decided that wasn't a good idea.


Dear Committed4ever,

I am another wife who did not lose my drive whatsoever in response to my pregnancy and breastfeeding. I also believe in "3 Rules for Keeping Your Hubby Happy", and lots of sex, esp bj's is item no. 1.

In fact, while preg and breastfeeding, it got particularly awesome because we weren't afraid of getting pregnant!

Best wishes!
S.


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## salamander (Apr 2, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Bravo!
> 
> Exactly what happens to me too. My wife will almost never tell me that she wishes I would improve some part of my personality, even when I'm being a right jackass and desperately need a slap to the side of the head. She would rather courageously ignore the problem, and expects the same consideration from me. "If you can't say something nice..."


H and I are working on this actively. Being bpd, my emotional reactivity caused him to shut down a lot, and then all he had open to him was passive aggressive behaviors which I then in turn resented. Once I stopped dwelling in resentment in an effort to control him, the passive aggression is falling away. And GettingIt is right, you're going to have to look at some ugly stuff when you get honest in your introspection, and not many people can or choose to provide a safe container for one to do that in.

Nowadays, I take deep calming breaths when H is sharing something I find triggering. I also just tell him stuff that I'm upset or ashamed of, instead of turning the problem into some kind of metaphorical "test" of his acceptance. Now he can share his inner world more safely with me because I am stable enough and confident in my self enough to not feel threatened by his emotions.

It just diffuses all the fight and leaves this pure connection.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

*Hmmm.... I happen to make more money than my H. We both have masters degrees, but at this time I simply have a higher earning job. Does that mean I'm due some extras from him? More talking time, more backrubs, more oral.... No. I would NEVER even breathe that to my H. I wouldn't treat him that way. I do my job because I have to help support my family.*

I don't think any man in this thread has suggested EXTRA anything....

On the contrary, I think all of us would be more than happy with a wife that could pull herself together from the huge physical and emotional stresses their daily lives put them through long enough to engage with their husband in mutually enjoyable sexual contact once or twice a week.....

At one time I was supporting my family working at a Certain Teed roofing plant...

I pulled 90# rolls of roofing off a conveyor belt and stacked them on pallets 8 hours a day......

That amounted to over 120,000 pounds of material that I lifted turned on end and stacked every day...Think about it for a while, 60 tons of material every day, 5 days a week.....in 100 degree heat.......

During this period of time *I never once refused my wife sex because I was too tired, *and I might add, my wife showed her appreciation for my efforts to support her and our 2 boys to the extent that *she never refused to have sex*.......

How many men on TAM are refused sex because their wives are too tired after working all day in an air conditioned house, with automatic appliances, and a big screen TV to mind the kids.....

It is usually the flimsy excuses night after night, rather than the actual lack of sex that pushes many men over the brink into divorce....

the woodchuck


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Why does the word 'obligation' automatically conjure up the connotation of something done unwillingly out of an atmosphere of coercion rather than one of honest desire?

Is fidelity not an obligation in marriage? How offended would people be if someone cast it in that light? Would it be safe to assume that they didn't real like the idea of being faithful in the first place?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

When I was married the first time (to my kids' dad), I used to envy females whose husbands had a high enough income to support them so they could be SAHM's. I used to secretly wish my husband was a higher earner so that I would not have to work and could stay home when my kids were little. I used to have fantasies of being home playing with them, while in reality, I was at my desk at work and a care-taker was playing with them. It was very sad for me at that time.

However, even though I fantasized that he earned enough to help me be a SAHM, I never once thought "and I'd like to have sex with him more often if he made more money, too." The two issues were not directly connected, to me.

They are still not connected.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> Why does the word 'obligation' automatically conjure up the connotation of something done unwillingly out of an atmosphere of coercion rather than one of honest desire?
> 
> Is fidelity not an obligation in marriage? How offended would people be if it was cast in that light?


I'd be offended. Yuck. I don't want someone being loyal and not cheating only because they feel obligated. I want them to be loyal and not cheat because they want to be loyal and don't want to cheat.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

norajane said:


> I'd be offended. Yuck. I don't want someone being loyal and not cheating only because they feel obligated. I want them to be loyal and not cheat because they want to be loyal and don't want to cheat.


in a perfect world this would be the norm. but as you can see the world is not perfect.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

norajane said:


> I'd be offended. Yuck. I don't want someone being loyal and not cheating only because they feel obligated. I want them to be loyal and not cheat because they want to be loyal and don't want to cheat.


Over a 50 year marriage, that obligation might be the thing that keeps your spouse faithful that one time you were having a prolonged dry spell at home, fighting over the kids, missing out on sex, and not cherishing each other properly at the same time the attractive co-worker was finding him Extra Manly.

Obligations are part of what keep adults doing the right thing when tempted, even only momentarily, to do something else.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

Cletus said:


> Over a 50 year marriage, that obligation might be the thing that keeps your spouse faithful that one time you were having a prolonged dry spell at home, fighting over the kids, missing out on sex, and not cherishing each other properly at the same time the attractive co-worker was finding him Extra Manly.
> 
> Obligations are part of what keep adults doing the right thing when tempted, even only momentarily, to do something else.


:iagree:

but the key would be to do it like it wasn't an obligation. thats how the game is played


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

norajane said:


> That's because sex isn't an obligation. Sex is fun, pleasure, excitement, raw, emotional, bonding, passionate, wild, loving, sharing...a lot of things.
> 
> If you are at the point where you see it as an obligation, you're doing it wrong or you've gone down the wrong road with your partner. Or both.
> 
> Does anyone really want their partner to have sex out a sense of obligation? There are few things worse, IMO.


No, not out of obligation, but ........

Too many women use as an excuse...I wasn't quite up to the "*exciting, raw, emotional loving, sharing sex",* you talked about in your post, so just tells him *"I have a headache*"........

Women slip into the "PERFECT STORM" scenario as an excuse for not having sex, so sex almost never happens.....

Lets look at a different scenario: A husband walks through the door after a tough day at the office, and a brutal drive home....

He plays with the kids till the wife finishes dinner, they enjoy the meal, he helps with the dishes, they both get the kids through their homework, bathed, and tucked in....

After a quiet time where the both watch the news, perhaps a movie, and engage in some small talk......They shower and decide to turn in...

The husband wants sex.......The wife did the grocery shopping that day, and to be honest her feet are killing her.....

CONCLUSION A: She says I'm not really in the mood (honest reply) didn't we do it Tuesday, and falls asleep......

Wakes up every couple of hours from hubby tossing and turning in frustration.......Both wake up feeling like crap, hubby in a p!ssy mood.....

CONCLUSION B: She says I'm really not in the mood, my feet are killing me...How about a foot rub, and I might feel better.....

Hubby gives a foot rub, leg rub, thigh rub scooches down and gives a little oral, wife reciprocates, followed by PIV, and orgasms all around......Wife falls asleep, hubby falls asleep, both wake up feeling like a million bucks.....

This may be a light hearted attempt at fiction, but how difficult would it be for the wife to make the effort even just half the time, instead of waiting for all the planets to align before she is willing to have sex with her husband?????

To just be open to a little persuasion would be much better than flat out refusal......

I think if sex denying wives would make up their minds to not turn down their man just half the times he asks, If she said to herself, I'm not burning with lust, but I guess it couldn't hurt....

The divorce rate in this country would be cut in half.......

Sex is usually better when a couple is dating, because the woman is usually open to a little persuasion during courtship, but often not after marriage.......

the woodchuck


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

norajane said:


> I'd be offended. Yuck. I don't want someone being loyal and not cheating only because they feel obligated. I want them to be loyal and not cheat because they want to be loyal and don't want to cheat.


While I don't disagree, I think you've simply reinserted a negative connotation of the word back into your answer.

Assuming our word is worth anything at all, fidelity is certainly an obligation in marriage. And that doesn't have to be a negative. One of the defining terms and synonyms of obligation is commitment. 

Whether we chafe against that obligation and view it as a burden or whether we view it as a joy because it's what we honestly want to do anyway doesn't change that. 

In the same vein, concomitant obligations are incurred implicitly as the result of promises and considerations made to us. If as a precondition of marriage, you had to agree to only ever eat food personally provided by your husband, he would have an obligation to feed you. And you would be in a real pickle if he refused to honor the ethical corollary to that promise.

Whether he viewed it as a burden or as a joy would say a lot about his attitude.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

woodchuck....I enjoy your posts. But you are falling into a habit that a lot of people have, which is saying things that imply "all women" are this way or that way.

For instance this: "Sex is usually better when a couple is dating, because the woman is usually open to a little persuasion during courtship, but often not after marriage."

This sounds simply like something you may have observed yourself, but is not a universal truth.

I have had the advantage of talking to literally dozens if not hundreds of HD women, many of them have LD husbands. I would estimate that one in 5 people of either sex is HD, and one in 5 is LD. This is too many people (ie: women) to then try to make blanket statements about "women".


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

To me, an obligation is something you *have *to do, no matter what, whether you want to or not. That's why it carries a negative connotation when applied to sex - your choice and desire is taken away when it comes to obligations.

Printing out a contract and pointing to the section where someone is contractually obligated to x in order to compel them to do it is ridiculous when it comes to sex and loyalty. Moreover, it doesn't actually work to get you what you really want - a loving partner who chooses to have sex with you freely and is loyal out of love and respect for you and your marriage.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

salamander said:


> I agree with this train of thought. Resentment began to build and nearly destroyed my marriage. Then I read that essay I'm constantly sharing, "When you use feelings of disappointment to manipulate someone into giving you your way, you program yourself to relate with your experience as a defeat. This costs you your freedom.
> 
> Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/857037"
> 
> ...


Good article--I'm going to give it to my hubby. I've been trying to bring him around to practice some introspection to help him diffuse negativity in his own life. Practicing self-awareness and gratitude has really changed my life in so many ways. 

"Disappointment tunes you into the losses and gratitude tunes you into the gains. Both perspectives are true, but you get to live in the truth you choose."

I don't care what your situation is, you have it within you to live a better life. Two things we should all practice every day: yoga and introspection. Wow, wouldn't the world be a different place?


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

norajane said:


> To me, an obligation is something you *have *to do, no matter what, whether you want to or not. That's why it carries a negative connotation when applied to sex - your choice and desire is taken away when it comes to obligations.



I agree it's horribly unromantic to express things in quasi-legal terms and I would never in a million years express myself in this way to my wife. I'm also not talking about sex on demand, I'm talking about a consistent pattern of refusal over the course of some time. 

Romantic or not, there is still a moral high ground and low ground here.


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## Enginerd (May 24, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> woodchuck....I enjoy your posts. But you are falling into a habit that a lot of people have, which is saying things that imply "all women" are this way or that way.
> 
> For instance this: "Sex is usually better when a couple is dating, because the woman is usually open to a little persuasion during courtship, but often not after marriage."
> 
> ...



woodchuck is a wise man only guilty of generalizing about the traits of men and women for the sake of this marriage discussion. His points and advice are priceless and can only be formed after a lifetime of seeking answers. Using your loosely defined observational stats to point out that his personal observations are not universal is more than ironic. I find your knee jerk PC admonishment insulting.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Touche Enigard...but I still said it.

The less generalizing the better. IMO (not that it matters) a big part of the problem couples have in general is mis-information and lack of information. One very important piece of information that would help more people to have is that there are more HD women and more LD men than most people think.

By the way, I am also old and have made my observations on a lifetime full of having sex, reading about sex, talking to others about sex...I'm pretty sure that qualifies me to my observations just as much as woodchuck.

Woodchuck...I hope you realize I did not mean to offend. I just feel strongly about the fact that there are many many problems couples have that are made worse by them thinking "men are this way" and "women are that way" when it comes to sex.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> woodchuck....I enjoy your posts. But you are falling into a habit that a lot of people have, which is saying things that imply "all women" are this way or that way.
> 
> For instance this: "Sex is usually better when a couple is dating, because the woman is usually open to a little persuasion during courtship, but often not after marriage."
> 
> ...


Not all women....Just the women married to the men posting in this thread, including the OP.....And that is too many.......


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I'm not sure what that means. And "that is too many"...too many what?


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> I agree it's horribly unromantic to express things in quasi-legal terms and I would never in a million years express myself in this way to my wife. I'm also not talking about sex on demand, *I'm talking about a consistent pattern of refusal over the course of some time. *
> 
> Romantic or not, there is still a moral high ground and low ground here.


I would think that person - the one with a consistent pattern of _refusal* _over the course of some time - would be the least likely to respond to a sense of obligation. 

*I interpret refusal to mean a deliberate withholding of sex - manipulation. If they're deliberately withholding sex in an effort to manipulate, that person clearly feels no obligation no matter what. 

I believe there are people who don't want sex with their spouses, but _would _feel a sense of obligation and would have sex because of it..."because I love you" sex. That becomes a problem if that kind of sex becomes the norm. "Because I love you" sex over time becomes "I'm starting to die inside a little more every time I have sex when I don't really want to even though I love you" sex. Encouraging the feeling of obligation in someone who is already having sex only because of that feeling of obligation takes a good sex life ever further out of reach. 

I think the person who does it out of a sense of obligation because they love their partner is someone who, hopefully, can find his or her way back (or forward) to where sex feels _good and fulfilling and fun and satisfying _instead of obligatory.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> I'm not sure what that means. And "that is too many"...too many what?


Enginerd was correct, my comments were in the context of this thread....

If the only women refusing their husbands sex for no real reason were the ones married to the men posting on this thread, it would be too many......

You spoke of universal truth, I have yet to find one....

As far as HD vs LD, I was married to a woman who was an extremely HD person, and became, a consistent refuser....

And when it was brought to her attention, she said she thought our relationship was just about perfect....

Even after multiple discussions pointing out just the opposite.....

I was surprised at the number of males being considered LD when I came to tam....As far as I know I have never met one...

I am convinced that many of the men branded as LD are probably actually suffering from ED....The biological components required for a male to initiate, and complete the sex act being much more complex that those required of a woman.....

the woodchuck


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

norajane said:


> I would think that person - the one with a consistent pattern of _refusal* _over the course of some time - would be the least likely to respond to a sense of obligation.
> 
> *I interpret refusal to mean a deliberate withholding of sex - manipulation. If they're deliberately withholding sex in an effort to manipulate, that person clearly feels no obligation no matter what.
> 
> ...


Nora Jane....I would be willing to bet that many women who are constantly refusing sex to there husbands are trying to manipulate nothing except the close juxtaposition of their knees......

Not power, not money, not romance or flattery, not dominance, not intimacy, not communication....They just don't think sex is necessary, and the less involvement they have with it the better.......

That is what makes the situation so difficult to deal with.....She wants nothing from her husband, including sex, so there is nothing he can do, or say or offer.......except offer to leave....

the woodchuck


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Ok woodchuck. I can see that you do hold the generalized opinions I was afraid of, but so do many others so....thank you for listening anyway.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Cletus said:


> Over a 50 year marriage, that obligation might be the thing that keeps your spouse faithful that one time you were having a prolonged dry spell at home, fighting over the kids, missing out on sex, and not cherishing each other properly at the same time the attractive co-worker was finding him Extra Manly.
> 
> Obligations are part of what keep adults doing the right thing when tempted, even only momentarily, to do something else.


It goes both ways. Women are not immune to an attractive co-worker or neighbor. She may be unhappy with him and not want sex but she may want sex with someone else.

That should give them both pause. If he is busy getting his ego stroked by a friendly coworker then he is not being attentive to his marriage. She may feel that his attention is elsewhere and decide to get her ego stroked too.


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## salamander (Apr 2, 2013)

ocotillo said:


> While I don't disagree, I think you've simply reinserted a negative connotation of the word back into your answer.
> 
> Assuming our word is worth anything at all, fidelity is certainly an obligation in marriage. And that doesn't have to be a negative. One of the defining terms and synonyms of obligation is commitment.
> 
> ...


I wish your semantic exercise re: "obligation" were more apt, but synonyms and related words to "obligation" include many with an unpleasant feel:

burden, debt (of gratitude), duty, tribute, coercion, and force among them, if Obligation - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary be any authority on the matter!

(interestingly enough, "release" is the antonym ;-) )


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Ok woodchuck. I can see that you do hold the generalized opinions I was afraid of, but so do many others so....thank you for listening anyway.


Which post was this a knee jerk reaction to?

the woodchuck


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

norajane said:


> To me, an obligation is something you *have *to do, no matter what, whether you want to or not. That's why it carries a negative connotation when applied to sex - your choice and desire is taken away when it comes to obligations.


That's true, and some people I'm sure are offended by using terms such as obligation or responsibility. But I feel the real problem is not the choice of verbiage but that someone would take offense to the use of either of those terms.

Plus, isn't it ironic that a person would even be offended by the use of those terms? When someone objects to using those terms, my first thought is that said person would not have that conversation at all but for their lack of sexual provision.

If I am having this issue in any future relationship, and my SO were to say "well, I don't like when you call it a responsibility", I am going to think she is not open to resolving this issue (at least not in a manner that recognizes sex as essential).


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## ginger-snap (Apr 10, 2013)

Woodchuck said:


> I was surprised at the number of males being considered LD when I came to tam....As far as I know I have never met one...


So then they don't exist? Like a rare unicorn? Well, John_Lord_b3 claims to be one and he's an active poster on this forum. I think my husband may also be one. 



Woodchuck said:


> I am convinced that many of the men branded as LD are probably actually suffering from ED....The biological components required for a male to initiate, and complete the sex act being much more complex that those required of a woman.....


More complex? Really? First time I've heard that one...H doesn't seem to have much trouble getting it up when he's willing, so ED isn't the problem.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Ok woodchuck. I can see that you do hold the generalized opinions I was afraid of, but so do many others so....thank you for listening anyway.


Nothing wrong with generalizations as long as you know when they apply and when they don't. 

Don't make the specific the enemy of the general.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Catherine602 said:


> It goes both ways. Women are not immune to an attractive co-worker or neighbor. She may be unhappy with him and not want sex but she may want sex with someone else.
> 
> That should give them both pause. If he is busy getting his ego stroked by a friendly coworker then he is not being attentive to his marriage. She may feel that his attention is elsewhere and decide to get her ego stroked too.


Of course it goes both ways. Standard American English practice uses the masculine as the preferred form when you don't know the gender of the participants, and I'm to old to use that asinine he/she crap.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

ginger-snap said:


> So then they don't exist? Like a rare unicorn? Well, John_Lord_b3 claims to be one and he's an active poster on this forum. I think my husband may also be one.


We do exist, that's why I am campaigning to remove this stigma of LD=selfish. Proof being, I am LD but I am trying hard not to be selfish. For normal men, sex is maybe one of the top most important thing in their list of things they desire the most in life. For me, it is in the "important thing" list, but not "top most important", until my wife giving the signs of wanting to have it. THEN it became top most important. The good thing about scheduled sex is that we could plan our activities ahead of times, so the risk of conflicting schedules are being minimized.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

woodchuck...You may not have liked what I said to you, but I was not disrespectful to you. I don't know why you have to insert a word like "knee jerk" when addressing me. What purpose does that serve? Why not find out what I meant, if you didn't know, rather than assume I have no real reason to ask anything, I am simply making some knee jerk reaction? (and I don't even know what you mean by that, I just know you are trying to deflect me, even though I was not disrespectful to you).

This that you said: "I was surprised at the number of males being considered LD when I came to tam....As far as I know I have never met one"...tells me that you do not know a lot about HD/LD issues across gender lines because you think that if you haven't met one, they (LD men) are not that common. This tells me that you have a limited range of experience upon which you are basing your opinions (your own marriage doesn't give you or anyone any knowledge of anything except the two spouse's rank of HD/LD). There are many LD men and there are many HD women and I know many of both. I also know many HD men and LD women. Until you see enough examples of all types, you (anyone) will tend to think that HD and LD falls along gender lines. But they do not. They are equally falling upon both genders.

You can believe me on that or not, no problem...but I know it to be true and it is relevant to any HD/LD discussion. If we stop talking about gender generated HD/LD and instead view it as an individual scale that is equal in both genders, then the whole thing starts to make a lot more sense.

Please take note that I have not been disrespectful to you in any post, and I would appreciate the same if you respond to me.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

johnlord said: _"We do exist, that's why I am campaigning to remove this stigma of LD=selfish."_

I'm campaigning to remove the stigma of LD = female.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

I believe I am obliged to ensure my husband has a satisfying sex life as I require sexual fidelity from him. He is obliged to make sure of the same for me.

It has nothing to do with money, or hard work or payment for services rendered.

Marriage is a sexual contract. If you enter a monogamous marriage then it's your responsibility to ensure your spouse is sexually taken care of. It should be a joyful responsibility, but it is a responsibility of marriage either way.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> woodchuck...You may not have liked what I said to you, but I was not disrespectful to you.


Disrespectful? That depends on whether or not you consider dismissive, which you most certainly were, to be disrespectful. 

Personally, I do. You can't really behave that way and then lay claim to the moral high ground.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Cletus...I'm not on any moral high ground, I never said I was. I get it that I rub you the wrong way. But how about let woodchuck answer for himself? Do you really also have to bash me? I may sound dismissive and if I do I honestly apologize for that. OK? What else can I say now? I mean I can rattle off about how you sound, too....what is the point? I am not trying to battle with each other, I'm honestly trying to battle ideas that are not conducive to good sexual relations. I get it that you don't believe this, you think I want to be combative...but from my perspective, you are the one being combative.




But if it is me....I am sorry.

ok?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Cletus...I'm not on any moral high ground, I never said I was. I get it that I rub you the wrong way. But how about let woodchuck answer for himself? Do you really also have to bash me? I may sound dismissive and if I do I honestly apologize for that. OK? What else can I say now? I mean I can rattle off about how you sound, too....what is the point? I am not trying to battle with each other, I'm honestly trying to battle ideas that are not conducive to good sexual relations. I get it that you don't believe this, you think I want to be combative...but from my perspective, you are the one being combative.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Actually, you don't rub me the wrong way in the least bit, but you've got a hair trigger on feeling bashed when you're behaving provocatively and someone calls you on your undeserved indignation. I like you, I really do. 

Maybe you don't know when you're doing it? I'll let Woodchuck answer for himself, but it was pretty obvious to me what got the "knee jerk" response. So we're cool, I got no vendetta.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Ok, fair enough...I don't feel anything like a "knee jerk" or a "hair trigger"...but I will totally cop to the fact that if you say that is how I am sounding, then I do sound like that. I will just try to word things better in the future. 

Cheers.


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## salamander (Apr 2, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Disrespectful? That depends on whether or not you consider dismissive, which you most certainly were, to be disrespectful.
> 
> Personally, I do. You can't really behave that way and then lay claim to the moral high ground.


FW responded to the term, "Knee-Jerk" as disrespectful, too. I didn't read her words that way, and I think "kneejerk" is also a communication non-starter, and to the degree that it is, equally disrespectful.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Lyris said:


> I believe I am obliged to ensure my husband has a satisfying sex life as I require sexual fidelity from him. He is obliged to make sure of the same for me.
> 
> It has nothing to do with money, or hard work or payment for services rendered.
> 
> *Marriage is a sexual contract. If you enter a monogamous marriage then it's your responsibility to ensure your spouse is sexually taken care of. It should be a joyful responsibility, but it is a responsibility of marriage either way*.


:iagree: yea I agree with this completely.. I just need to be reminded of this from time to time.


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## PeaceTrain (Jun 25, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> When I was married the first time (to my kids' dad), I used to envy females whose husbands had a high enough income to support them so they could be SAHM's. I used to secretly wish my husband was a higher earner so that I would not have to work and could stay home when my kids were little. I used to have fantasies of being home playing with them, while in reality, I was at my desk at work and a care-taker was playing with them. It was very sad for me at that time.
> 
> However, even though I fantasized that he earned enough to help me be a SAHM, I never once thought "and I'd like to have sex with him more often if he made more money, too." The two issues were not directly connected, to me.
> 
> They are still not connected.



I made enough money to start with, top 8 percent. 10 years later she makes enough money as well. Now, we both make lots of money, together top 5 percent. But money is all we made, we did not make love. She is never in a mode. Now, it is a slow death. I don't expect anything from her anymore. Well, that's my story and will reserve for another day if I ever.

Point is, all the rich guys would be having great sex with their so if $ is the solution. I don't have statistics, but among my friends couple barely making financially are the one happier.

I have learnt to control sadness. It used to be very tough, but it got easier ( less tough) with hobbies, traveling alone, skiing in the winter etc.

you got the point.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> I'm campaigning to remove the stigma of LD = female.


Will likely never happen as long as the significant differences in emotional processing between genders continues to exist, and as long as the whole "emotions" spectrum is used as a reason to avoid sex with a partner.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

"Will likely never happen as long as the significant differences in emotional processing between genders continues to exist, and as long as the whole "emotions" spectrum is used as a reason to avoid sex with a partner."

john if you really think that being LD is actually just "used as a reason to avoid sex with a partner", then why are you in the discussion? If you don't think these issues are real (whether in a man or a woman) then why even talk about them. I don't even know what you mean by "as long as the whole emotions spectrum"??? I haven't mentioned emotions once, I'm not LD, and I don't know what you are getting at.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

norajane said:


> I'd be offended. Yuck. I don't want someone being loyal and not cheating only because they feel obligated. I want them to be loyal and not cheat because they want to be loyal and don't want to cheat.


Then why marry? Marriage, by its nature, is about freely undertaking an obligation to your partner. So why not just skip marriage and continue a relationship where each side can do things to maintain the relationship for as long as they want?


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Then why marry? Marriage, by its nature, is about freely undertaking an obligation to your partner. So why not just skip marriage and continue a relationship where each side can do things to maintain the relationship for as long as they want?


I can see both sides to this. I see what TAG is saying here. I believe that there ARE obligations in marriage. At the same time, I really do hate that word--esp. when applied to sex. Sex is supposed to be the ultimate expression of love that is freely given. There _should_ be no "obligation" surrounding it--that would take away from the beauty of it.

But at the same time, I can't say it is NOT an obligation. I do believe that when you are married to someone, it is your duty to put your spouse's needs first. "Obligation" and "duty" just have such negative connotations. These words bring to mind something that you HAVE to do. And no one (whether HD or LD) gets married thinking they will HAVE to either receive or give "duty or obligatory" sex. 

My point all along has been that using the "obligation" or "duty" approach to sex will simply NOT work. Telling a LD spouse "it's your obligation to have sex with me" is likely not going to increase his/her drive. While it might work temporarily (because of shock or fear) it's not a good long-term solution.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The issues are real, nobody disputes that. I do dispute the standard methodology of stamping someone as LD and absolving them of any further responsibility. Like, I got plantar fasciatis, so I can't run 5 miles a day, game over.

What may not be so real is the effort to recognize, understand, and manage the desire issue to a point agreeable to both partners. 

The "emotional spectrum" is a straightforward reference to (often unexplained but surprisingly convenient) opportunities for LD's to use emotions as a reason for avoiding sex.

Ask enough questions and you'll either get to the bottom of it or arrive at the "because I said so" wall. Knowing why things are the way they are may not help fix them but I'd rather know why rather than not know why. Current pop culture simply has us accepting our partner's characteristics without conditions. 

If you think radical acceptance for LD is an answer, head over to a BPD forum and read on radical acceptance there. In essence, decades of experience dealing with things and all we can come up with is "live with it"?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

john117.....Yes I think radical acceptance for LD is an answer....because I believe LD people have the right to be how they are. 

But I also believe their HD spouses also have the right to be how THEY are and if that means divorce, so be it. Why are people who are so miserable still clinging to a spouse who doesn't want to have sex with them, yet they still think they can coerce their LD spouse to change their view? 

If you think I am all fluffy and light and pro-LD you are reading me completely wrong. I already AM divorced once due to lack of satisfying sex and I would divorce for that reason again. 

But when I say it like that, then I will get bashed for not being pro-marriage. I'm actually just anti-whining.


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## salamander (Apr 2, 2013)

john117 said:


> Will likely never happen as long as the significant differences in emotional processing between genders continues to exist, and as long as the whole "emotions" spectrum is used as a reason to avoid sex with a partner.


Isn't this whole thing framed in men's emotional needs for sex? 

Guys, you are emotional beings too!


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

momtwo4 said:


> ..."Obligation" and "duty" just have such negative connotations. These words bring to mind something that you HAVE to do. And no one (whether HD or LD) gets married thinking they will HAVE to either receive or give "duty or obligatory" sex.


I can see that, but I'd submit that a lot as to do with attitude. When we bring children into the world, we become responsible for their needs, not just from an ethical and moral perspective, but from a legal one as well. A serious enough breach of that trust can get you prosecuted, fined or even imprisoned in extreme cases.

It doesn't get anymore obligatory than that. But does that seriously bother anyone? I can't speak for anyone else, but I honestly never thought about it while raising my three daughters. It was what I wanted to do. The only way it would have bothered me is if raising them was what I did not want to do.

Is sex that different? To me it still seems to come down to attitude. Obligation is only distasteful when you're being compelled to do something you don't want to do. When you're doing something you truly want to do, you don't even think about it.

Maybe I'm being unfair here. Maybe this is a basic disconnect between men and women and I'll never understand. But I can't help but notice an unspoken note of almost helplessness in these threads. It's never actually stated, but it comes across as a given that attitude is completely beyond our conscious control.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

We do exist, that's why I am campaigning to remove this stigma of LD=selfish. Proof being, I am LD but I am trying hard not to be selfish. For normal men, sex is maybe one of the top most important thing in their list of things they desire the most in life. For me, it is in the "important thing" list, but not "top most important", until my wife giving the signs of wanting to have it. THEN it became top most important. The good thing about scheduled sex is that we could plan our activities ahead of times, so the risk of conflicting schedules are being minimized. 

john_lord_b3 is indeed a unicorn...One of the finest kind...A unicorn with noble motives....

This is evidenced by the fact that even though he admits to being LD he MAKES AN EFFORT TO BE UNSELFISH WHEN HIS PARTNER DESIRES SEX...........A statement I have never heard from an LD wife...

If the LD wives of the men posting on this thread made the smallest attempt to be *unselfish*, the OP would not have posted this thread, and we would all be over on "coping with infidelity" reading all the juicy details of the latest cheater..... 

Selfishness is the cornerstone of the serial refuser, male or female.......

My statement that I had never met a LD man was because in our culture, no man admits to being LD...Hence the wink at the end of the post...

*I was surprised at the number of males being considered LD when I came to tam....As far as I know I have never met one*...

I guess this has become a no humor zone...

the not funny
woodchuck


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

momtwo4 said:


> I can see both sides to this. I see what TAG is saying here. I believe that there ARE obligations in marriage. At the same time, I really do hate that word--esp. when applied to sex. Sex is supposed to be the ultimate expression of love that is freely given. There _should_ be no "obligation" surrounding it--that would take away from the beauty of it.
> 
> But at the same time, I can't say it is NOT an obligation. I do believe that when you are married to someone, it is your duty to put your spouse's needs first. "Obligation" and "duty" just have such negative connotations. These words bring to mind something that you HAVE to do. And no one (whether HD or LD) gets married thinking they will HAVE to either receive or give "duty or obligatory" sex.
> 
> My point all along has been that using the "obligation" or "duty" approach to sex will simply NOT work. Telling a LD spouse "it's your obligation to have sex with me" is likely not going to increase his/her drive. While it might work temporarily (because of shock or fear) it's not a good long-term solution.


I think this really sums up how I approach it. Yes, sex (and many other things in marriage) should be freely given without obligation. And yet I realize that we as humans can tend toward the selfish. We tend to rationalize away things we don't feel like doing. Recognizing that we have obligations (or commitments if you prefer) can be helpful in preventing those tendencies from damaging our relationship.

My wife gives me duty sex on occasionally. She is just not into it, but she recognizes that it is important to me. She loves me, and wants me to be happy, so she does something that she would prefer not to. In some ways, it is out of obligation. But she recognizes that I do things for her that I would prefer not to (like building a ramp for her to train the dog on a 90 degree day with 85% humidity as opposed to enjoying the air conditioning and watching the game) because I want her happy. Again, that is an obligation I signed on for as well. I suppose it helps that 95% of the time she is up for sex like I am, so the "duty" sex is the exception. I suspect it makes it easier for her to give, and I know that it makes it easier for me to accept, the gift as it is intended, knowing that the next time will involve the chandeliers.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> I can see that, but I'd submit that a lot as to do with attitude. When we bring children into the world, we become responsible for their needs, not just from an ethical and moral perspective, but from a legal one as well. A serious enough breach of that trust can get you prosecuted, fined or even imprisoned in extreme cases.
> 
> It doesn't get anymore obligatory than that. But does that seriously bother anyone? I can't speak for anyone else, but I honestly never thought about it while raising my three daughters. It was what I wanted to do. The only way it would have bothered me is if raising them was what I did not want to do.
> 
> ...


:iagree: Attitude is incredibly important. I _chose_ to change my attitude about sex with my husband. I do believe that each individual has control over his/her attitude. This is something I try to teach my children every day.

Unfortunately, you can't MAKE your spouse change his/her attitude about seeing "sex" as a "positive" obligation. Only each individual can decide to do this. You also can't be prosecuted in a court of law for refusing sex with your spouse. However, you can choose to leave if you are in a constantly unhealthy, stagnant, and emotionally abusive relationship.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Sure woodchuck....just whining about how "selfish" an LD spouse will surely make the LD spouse want to bang you.

And why would you want to have sex with someone who is so "selfish" at all? Have you no standards?

(the "you" above doesn't mean you specifically woodchuck...it means anyone who has the attitude that whining about it will solve anything)


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

momtwo4 said:


> I can see both sides to this. I see what TAG is saying here. I believe that there ARE obligations in marriage. At the same time, I really do hate that word--esp. when applied to sex. Sex is supposed to be the ultimate expression of love that is freely given. There _should_ be no "obligation" surrounding it--that would take away from the beauty of it.
> 
> But at the same time,* I can't say it is NOT an obligation. I do believe that when you are married to someone, it is your duty to put your spouse's needs first. "Obligation" and "duty" just have such negative connotations*. These words bring to mind something that you HAVE to do. And no one (whether HD or LD) gets married thinking they will HAVE to either receive or give "duty or obligatory" sex.
> 
> My point all along has been that using the "obligation" or "duty" approach to sex will simply NOT work. *Telling a LD spouse "it's your obligation to have sex with me" is likely not going to increase his/her drive*. While it might work temporarily (because of shock or fear) it's not a good long-term solution.


English is certainly not my first language.. So, I cannot at first understand what your point was..

But... your words actually make sense to me, after repeated reading, I finally get what you meant.. I transposed the bolded words into the actual situation of my own culture, and it actually fits. So, yes, now I understand and agree with what you said above. Thank you for the insight, Mrs. Momtwo! :smthumbup:


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Woodchuck said:


> We do exist, that's why I am campaigning to remove this stigma of LD=selfish. Proof being, I am LD but I am trying hard not to be selfish. For normal men, sex is maybe one of the top most important thing in their list of things they desire the most in life. For me, it is in the "important thing" list, but not "top most important", until my wife giving the signs of wanting to have it. THEN it became top most important. The good thing about scheduled sex is that we could plan our activities ahead of times, so the risk of conflicting schedules are being minimized.
> 
> john_lord_b3 is indeed a unicorn...One of the finest kind...A unicorn with noble motives....
> 
> ...


Right, it's a no humore zone and the HD's are pissed against the LD's.

On the unselfishness bit. You have to put yourself in their shoes. They feel in bliss that they don't "have" do do anything, and each time they know that you want it and they withhold, stonewall or deny that bliss ball gets even bigger.

For them to "give", would likely be a painful extraction akin to ripping a pound of flesh.

For many of them in this mindstate, to know they "have" to do it on some occasional rate makes them feel less empowered.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

salamander said:


> Isn't this whole thing framed in men's emotional needs for sex?
> 
> Guys, you are emotional beings too!


In a confirmational, post-coital sense. Unlike the other gender  where emotional needs usually must be met pre-coitally.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Sure woodchuck....just whining about how "selfish" an LD spouse is will surely make the LD spouse want to bang you.
> 
> And why would you want to have sex with someone who is so "selfish" at all? Have you no standards?
> 
> (the "you" above doesn't mean you specifically woodchuck...it means anyone who has the attitude that whining about it will solve anything)


Whining won't help. Being outright confrontational (tastefully of course) will at least let the other person that the other partner's pleasurable body parts are not on sabbatical.

Like with BPD, one has to be monumentally simpleminded to accept their partners 3-year old behavior as normal. Knowing what I know about psychology I decided on a different course of action (one 100% opposite of what is suggested ironically) once again full confrontation head on matching tantrum for tantrum and setting very strict boundaries. Guess what, it worked, took the best part of 2010-2012, which is about the time our sex life went downhill, but we can now count BPD episodes to a handful a year of mild ones, vs several years worth of several heavies a week.

If I can deal with my partner's BPD dealing with LD is not all that difficult.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Ok john....I don't know your sitch at all but....I am assuming you have a BDP spouse who doesn't want to have sex with you.

Question: why do you want to have sex with someone who does not want to have sex with you?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

treyvion said:


> On the unselfishness bit. You have to put yourself in their shoes. They feel in bliss that they don't "have" do do anything, and each time they know that you want it and they withhold, stonewall or deny that bliss ball gets even bigger.


Remember Dr. John's evil or stupid classification of LD-ness.. If they know it's more evil, if they don't it's stupid...

(In a polite way evil or stupid, but I'd rather not use psychobabble)


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Ok john....I don't know your sitch at all but....I am assuming you have a BDP spouse who doesn't want to have sex with you.
> 
> Question: why do you want to have sex with someone who does not want to have sex with you?


Her idea of sex is now "when I am in the mood" which loosely translates from Farawaystan-speak to English in "a few times a year". So instead of following the various action plans to man up, do the dishes, not do the dishes, et al I decided sex was too much of an effort for little reward. So now I don't want sex (or much else other than college $$$ for my girls). Which is why I'm still married.

As I said, at this point it's a giant science experiment for me. I have all the data in my lab notebook, and I'm waiting for the experiment to conclude. No hard feelings.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

john....sounds like a good plan, and kudos to you for not wanting sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex with you.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

Men and emotion....

My wife reads all my posts, and I know I am going to pay for this, but I think it is important so here go's

After our cataclysmic confrontation over our sexless lifestyle we decided to work on our marriage.....

One of the things we did was "The five love languages"....

I had zero faith that it would help, but once I picked it up, I read it in one sitting...I was profoundly touched by the authors clear logic and honest message...I got it.....

My wife read the book, and also seemed "on board"...So we began to work at meeting each others emotional needs....

At about that time, she required some minor surgery...I hade to wait on her "hand and foot" for a little over a week...Meals in bed, changing dressings...etc....

During this time I decided to open my heart to my task, and fully embrace my role as nurturer...I not only waited on her, I did it with an open heart, and with love....I wanted our marriage and the spirit of the 5 love languages to take hold......

During that week I fell in love with my wife all over again.....

I was in giddy, stupid, high school crush, teenager, head over heels in love, AND I LOVED IT....

I started looking forward to her walking into the room....Seeing her made me smile....I was cheerful, and doting.......

My wife mentioned my new attitude and seemed to enjoy it.....

Then the trouble started...Here is part of my post about it....

*The first manifestation of our new problems was a couple of weeks ago. I approached my wife, gave her a massage, and we wound up having wonderful sex. It was over an hour of really good kissing and holding, and lovemaking. I thought I was in heaven. My world was transformed. 

I was in a fog of good feelings the next day, I was fixing dinner, and she says out of the blue, "If you think giving me massages will lead to sex, I would rather you didn't massage me any more.....I was crushed....It literally felt like I had been kicked in the stomach....I wound up in bed, crying uncontrollably....And she walked in, acting puzzled at my being upset......She just kind of brushed it off in a casual manner, and walked out....*

You see, falling in love hade made me emotionally vulnerable...I had taken off my armor, and left my heart exposed......

post continues....

*Things smoothed over, and we had sex a couple of more times, with no negative results, till last Friday. She was in a negative mood, and being down. I stayed in a cheerful mood, and tried to tease her out of being mad or upset. It seemed to work. 

The next morning, she came into the bedroom after breakfast, being affectionate, and said she was sorry for being a brat the day before. We had a wonderful morning, making love for 3 hours. It was the happiest I had been for weeks. the next day, I was still basking in the afterglow. I spent the whole day walking on air.

Sunday, early in the day we spent a couple of hours cuddling in bed, and talking about just daily affairs and our son.
That night at almost bedtime I was in the living room on my laptop. She was in her bedroom watching tv. Wife walked in while I was typing a reply to a PM from a TAM member who was having trouble. 

She said Bates Motel was coming on, and switched the living room tv over to that station. I made eye contact and continued typing but also conversing with her in between. 

She became very angry, saying I wasn't giving her any attention, saying I was more into TAM than her, etc....That I was just using her for sex and why didn't I just pull up porn instead of bothering her......

We had spent half the morning in bed being wonderfully close, and then this turnaround......I had been happy for almost 2 days, some kind of a record, and this one literally broke my heart. 

I had spent the whole day thinking "This is how it can be, we can be this happy all the time, We can talk about issues and not fight. and our life will be absolutely fantastic". I was on cloud nine, and then the big crash AGAIN.....No sleep for most of the night.*

I was awake most of the night, crying, thinking, wracked with doubt and disappointment....

continue post...

*Yesterday, I did the grocery shopping, came home with a dozen roses for her, fixed dinner, fried chicken biscuits, cream gravy, green beans, and rice......She was in and out of the kitchen the whole time, making negative coments, she took a phone call in her room while I was taking off the chicken. I fixed my dad a plate, (he is 97 and lives with us)...I was really down from her attitude, and just ate a piece of chicken and sat there staring at my plate...

She storms into the kitchen, says "Why didn't you call me for dinner"...She was on the phone, She lives here, she knew it was ready... 

Then procedes to go into the kitchen, fix herself some ramen noodles and eat them for dinner.

She came into my room after finishing her noodles, and tried to smooth things over. She said she dosn't know why she acts the way she does, and knows something is wrong.....I had had zero sleep the night before, and we decided to work on it today.....Has anyone had similar experiences to this? It just seems like when she sees happiness, she has to do something to smash it.....

I told her If making love to her resulted in getting my heart broken every time, I would just bring my laptop into my bedroom and masturbate to porn......*

and then....

*When you are "In Love" with someone, you don't have emotional barriers, but with time, and little emotional hurts, you begin to put up barriers, or grow a thicker skin, that stops these hurts...BUT that thicker skin stops you from feeling "In Love".......

Hence the old "I love you but I am not in love with you".....

For now I am enjoying the "In Love" feeling too much to put the barriers back up. I guess I will just have to develop some other coping methods...*

*Right before the last blowup, I was thinking how wonderful the last couple of days had been and how great our retirement could be If we could keep going like we were, and she walks in and delivers a spinning back kick to the groin....I mean she should be in MMA the way she can take me down.

After getting groceries I picked up a dozen roses, and coming up the drive stopped and cut some sprays of dogwood blossoms to go with them...She said "Don't buy any more flowers, they're expensive". *

*I feel like dropping the roses one by one down the garbage disposal...

The only reason I keep trying is that I truly love her...*

and then.....

*Had a couple of good weeks...Easter was absolutely wonderful...Got up this morning, fixed breakfast for me and dad...He was slow eating his cheerios and finishing his coffee, so I sat down at my laptop and got online....

The wife walked in about 20 minutes later....My and dads coffee cups and his cereal bowl were still on the table....Suddenly I am the pr1ck of the universe...stacked up on the table..yada yada yada....

I tried to explain that dad had been slow finishing and I was going to pick up when I got off line...She was having none of it...What if I didn't pick up....up to the ceiling yada yada 
yada....All of this over two lousey coffee cups and a cereal bowl....

After I spent most of yesterday with her shopping for new furniture.....And after I have been doing most of the cooking, grocery shopping, etc....

I was pissed that she would throw away all the good feelings I thought we had had over the past two or three weeks over a couple of fu-cking coffee cups....

I went out and started working on my car...Putting on some seat covers I had gotten for Christmas....

She came out and stormed off in her 4WD....I Went to the car wash, and vacuumed the floorboards, stopped and got the oil changed. Got home and she was still gone.......

Went into the BR and lay down...she came back, and it was still all my fault...then she brings up sex again...I only give you sex to shut you up......

I don't know how much more I can stand. I would give her anything, all she wants is my self respect...After a couple of hours she sort of apologizes, and we sort of make up...She go's outside, and comes back in in in a few minutes and is in her room crying...She says the whole day is ruined and It is my fault....

I told her I would never trouble her for sex again, and she dosn't want to hear that either...

I am just screwed...I don't know what I am going to do...guess I will bring the laptop into the bedroom and buy a big pump bottle of lube*

each time one of these blowups happened I fell a little more out of love with her.......

I am now in the old..."I love you but not in love with you" again..

YES I TOLD HER THE DAY I FELL OUT OF LOVE.....

The good part is I don't cry any more...The bad part is I MISS being IN LOVE.....

Emotions in men? Yes, but why bother.....

not in love
woodchuck


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

woodchuck...that sucks. Kudos for being radically honest when you fell out of love. What are you going to do? How long are you going to try? If things never will change from how they are right now, what is your game plan?


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Woodchuck, I read that and my immediate response is that sex is the least of your problems. Everything else in your relationship dynamic is the real problem, and sex is one of the ways your relationship problems manifest themselves. 

Focusing on your sex life doesn't address the underlying issue which is that your wife thinks nothing of trashing you. A wife who shrugs while you're crying inconsolably after she kicks you in the stomach (verbally and emotionally) isn't a sign that she "loves you but isn't in love with you". It's a sign she isn't in love with you AND she doesn't love you.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> woodchuck...that sucks. Kudos for being radically honest when you fell out of love. What are you going to do? How long are you going to try? If things never will change from how they are right now, what is your game plan?


Things have slowly improved....I have hopes that we can take a long weekend at a nice motel, and do a mini marriage retreat with the 5 love languages, and try to fall in love again....

I will never leave her....I found out when I walked out that she is my sexual icon...Try as hard as I might I could not come up with a mind movie of me with another woman.....

It is her or nothing.....

Married or not......

the woodchuck


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

It sounds like your wife is going through something woodchuck...when you said she knows there is something wrong with her, has she seen a doctor? Could there be a medical issue causing wild mood swings? I am only asking based on your last post. If this has already been answered elsewhere, I am sorry.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

norajane said:


> Woodchuck, I read that and my immediate response is that sex is the least of your problems. Everything else in your relationship dynamic is the real problem, and sex is one of the ways your relationship problems manifest themselves.
> 
> Focusing on your sex life doesn't address the underlying issue which is that your wife thinks nothing of trashing you. A wife who shrugs while you're crying inconsolably after she kicks you in the stomach (verbally and emotionally) isn't a sign that she "loves you but isn't in love with you". It's a sign she isn't in love with you AND she doesn't love you.


These actions on her part were a direct to and were always initiated by us having sex.....She was punishing me for the pleasure I was receiving....No sex, no fights.......Things have improved since she has realized what she was doing......

We are fighting much less now....And still having sex 1-2 times a week.......

It just shows how determined "refuser" is to continue refusing.....

We have been together for 47 years........I have absolutely no doubt that she loves me deeply......If I died today, I have every certainty she would follow within a year....

She has problems with anger, and says horrible things that she later regrets....I could fill a scrap book with them.........

My biggest flaw is I am lazy...I have needed a cane since my accident (Feb 22, 1969) and can't do lots of the physical things she needs done around the house.....At 66 and with 2 bad knees it isn't easy...

I am working harder on that....I recently spent 4 days digging a tree stump out of the back yard with a pick and shovel...

6 foot diameter hole 3 feet deep...Had to swing the pick seated on a stool, but got it out.....

I think she sees that I am trying to live up to more of her expectations.....

the woodchuck


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> It sounds like your wife is going through something woodchuck...when you said she knows there is something wrong with her, has she seen a doctor? Could there be a medical issue causing wild mood swings? I am only asking based on your last post. If this has already been answered elsewhere, I am sorry.


She has several health problems...Arthritis, IBS, and most recently, neuropathy that causes severe pain in her feet....

The tragedy is that during the 3 or more years that we were almost sexless, the neuropathy had crept in and taken away her ability to orgasm....

So the last years of her functional sexuality were stolen from us by her refusals, and now our sex life of past years is gone forever.....

All of this has been documented in TAM....My post "Unspeakable grief" tells about my reaction to her neuropathy.....

I guess I post now to try to show others how precious sex is, and the tragedy of loosing it....

The woodchuck


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Woodchuck said:


> These actions on her part were a direct to and were always initiated by us having sex.....She was punishing me for the pleasure I was receiving....No sex, no fights.......Things have improved since she has realized what she was doing......
> 
> We are fighting much less now....And still having sex 1-2 times a week.......
> 
> ...


Some people here would be exstatic with 1-2 times per week. But I remember the days when this was a bare surviveable minimum.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

treyvion said:


> Some people here would be exstatic with 1-2 times per week. But I remember the days when this was a bare surviveable minimum.


You are so right...At one time 1-2 times a day was the norm...For over a decade.....

To be honest, I would still enjoy sex every night, and again in the morning....Recently we had sex 3 times in 24 hours....

That would be perfect, but she is just not up to that physically, and I would never press her...

She always gives me signals that sex is a possibility and I never miss them.....

People should realize sex is not a forever thing and cherish every time they make love...

the woodchuck


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Woodchuck said:


> I will never leave her...


As long as she knows this, it will be incredibly difficult to change her behavior.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Woodchuck said:


> Men and emotion....
> 
> My wife reads all my posts, and I know I am going to pay for this, but I think it is important so here go's


Pay for it how? What did you say here that she hasn't heard before, if she's read all your posts?

How could she read this and not feel remorse for her actions and the pain they caused you? How could she not want to work on not repeating the same behavior?

I know I've come down on my husband like that sometimes--it was always about my struggling with resentment, not about the issue at hand (coffee cups on the table or whatever.) Something is eating her up, and she's taking it out on you. You are a "safe" target for her release when the pressure of her unhappiness gets to be too much. It might have something to do with your marriage, it might be about her health, or something else altogether. She could set herself free if she's willing to confront whatever it is that is making her so unhappy.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

GettingIt said:


> Pay for it how? What did you say here that she hasn't heard before, if she's read all your posts?
> 
> How could she read this and not feel remorse for her actions and the pain they caused you? How could she not want to work on not repeating the same behavior?
> 
> I know I've come down on my husband like that sometimes--it was always about my struggling with resentment, not about the issue at hand (coffee cups on the table or whatever.) Something is eating her up, and she's taking it out on you. You are a "safe" target for her release when the pressure of her unhappiness gets to be too much. It might have something to do with your marriage, it might be about her health, or something else altogether. She could set herself free if she's willing to confront whatever it is that is making her so unhappy.


When my wife and I had our "DARK TIME" she went through a lot. Things area lot better now, in every way...But she doesn't like to be reminded of it......

I'm sure it won't cause anything but some serious conversation...

I have always felt if I was going to post something about our relationship she had the right to know.....So she reads almost everything I post......

Remember the Samuel L. Jackson line in "Pulp Fiction"....

"If my answers frighten you, you should stop asking scary questions"

the woodchuck


PS My apologies to the OP for jacking his thread....


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> Besides love and desire is sexual satisfaction. There are many threads from women who are sexually frustrated but have problems with their husband changing.
> 
> Either their husbands are hypersensitive or won't listen or they change for a only a short period of time.
> 
> ...


So, you are suggesting that women are frustrated due to their husband's poor sexual performance? That the husbands take no interest in their pleasure, and from that sex tends to drop off?

I'm not sure about that being a factor in a large proportion of cases. What I do see are women who just lose interest in sex (while the men still hold up their responsibilities) and expect their spouses to comply. Also, I see (not so much on TAM but definitely on other sites) that women place boundaries on sex (PIV only; no toys, hands, oral, etc.) and thus pretty much ensure their own dissatisfaction.

So, to the extent the unsatisfied ladies generally are creating these sexual issues (by simply stopping sex out of lack of libido, or from frustration because they impose limits on sex that make it unenjoyable), yes - they should strive to provide sex as a demonstration of love, while addressing the issues that are making the sex life unsatisfying.

Obviously, such a situation is not ideal, and having a mutually satisfying sex life is best. But, the third alternative (having little or no sex) is much more damaging to the marriage. Cutting out the sex gives a strong impression that the HD spouse is being punished for something beyond his or her control (always a bad idea). Also, as women tend to lose their drive when sexual frequency decreases, cutting out the sex probably makes any sexual disconnect worse and reconnect harder / more awkward.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

GettingIt said:


> Pay for it how? What did you say here that she hasn't heard before, if she's read all your posts?
> 
> How could she read this and not feel remorse for her actions and the pain they caused you? How could she not want to work on not repeating the same behavior?


I've seen situations (mine included) where the LD spouse strongly discourages discussion of these issues because he or she does not want the HD spouse to feel encouraged to push for change.

It goes without saying that the pain the LD spouse feels at reading about their behavior (if any) is outweighed by the perceived advantages of maintaining the status quo.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

DTO said:


> I've seen situations (mine included) where the LD spouse strongly discourages discussion of these issues because he or she does not want the HD spouse to feel encouraged to push for change.


That's when you get the 'what are you, some kind of pervert' for wanting sex more than single digit times a year.

As I said, dealing with BPD was easier. A BPD has all the reason in the world to stay within the established boundaries. An LD, none whatsoever (in most cases, with a few 'I was LD and saw the light' type exceptions)


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Reasons for LD:

*Hormonal issues* - usually this person will have low drive their whole life if it is truly hormonal. Not likely to change unless due to a hormonal change.

*Physical* - some injuries or conditions can make it painful to have sex. Can change if physical condition changes.

*Mental* - due to trauma or other issues, a person can want to avoid sex. Can change but depending on level of trauma, might not.

*Lack of attraction/chemistry* - he or she just isn't into you. Most likely not going to change.

*Secretly hates you* - he or she is harboring deep hatred for something in your past together. Could change if this is the only reason and if they would be into you otherwise. Might not change though and there's nothing you can do about it.

*Body doesn't work properly/out of practice* - for some people, if things aren't working correctly (ED or lack of arousal) they will just stop trying. This can be worked with but sometimes the LD person will simply not want to.

*Selfishness* - This one is new to me. Apparently, all LD spouses of HD spouses on TAM are selfish and withhold sex for no other reason. No one seems to think there is any real reason for this selfishness and no clues are offered as to why they are so selfish, they just are.

- - - - - - - - - - - - 

So I guess it is fair to assume the last category is the only one you believe in John?


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Reasons for LD:
> 
> *Hormonal issues* - usually this person will have low drive their whole life if it is truly hormonal. Not likely to change unless due to a hormonal change.
> 
> ...


:iagree: See, I think it's just too simple to say LD people with hold entirely because they are "selfish." I don't disagree that SOME LD people are selfish. However, I think it's oftentimes much more complicated than that. Despite what many posters seem to think, people with a low-drive are not always just selfishly trying to hurt their partners.

Unfortunately, some people really DO struggle with hormonal or physical problems. I, for one, am unlucky in that regard. I continually struggle to orgasm--despite trying. I have a question for the HD people: Do you think it would affect your sexual drive if you NEVER orgasmed when you had sex? Do you think your PHYSICAL desire for sex might wane just a bit? 

Now I'm not saying that one partner should with hold because they struggle to climax. They should keep working on the issue and meeting their partner's need. But I also think it's a little ridiculous to think that their craving (on a physical level) for sex might not be there. In my case, it really doesn't have to do with being selfish.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

It would be too simple to consider that just because there are 10 causes for an event, that they are evenly distributed. I prefer to focus on Pareto's Principle, where 80% of the events are typically caused by 20% of the causes.

Also, many of the reasons listed are not root causes in themselves but can be decomposed further. Ultimately it's down to:

- physical (hormonal, illness)
- mental (BPD, depression)
- choice (power struggle, does not care, does not know), selfishness, resentment, etc)

In my view the last is by far the biggest reason. Choice causes emotions which cause xxx which cause yyy which leads to sex or no sex.

You don't choose to have BPD or a bad back. You choose to harbor resentment or to otherwise ignore your partner's needs.

I know that it is contrary to modern psych dogma to consider that choices cause emotions rather than the other way around but we are adults here and adults should control their emotions to a great extent, not the other way around.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

"You choose to harbor resentment or to otherwise ignore your partner's needs."

This includes the assumption that your partner did nothing worthy of resentment. How can that ALWAYS be true either?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Ok John...you are right, I'll just leave it at that. Every spouse should force themselves to have sex with their spouse, regardless of lack of attraction, pain, suffering, or past deeds that spouse ever did. Sex should be purely a NON-emotional physical act of getting off and therefore, there is no reason ever to not have sex. You win!

To me that is gross, as I want someone who emotionally wants me, physically wants me, and is capable of real emotional connection. If I woke up one day and my husband didn't fit that description anymore, I would "try" (varies with the circumstances) to see if it could change back...but in the end I wouldn't stick around for it.

But according to your wisdom I should just shame him into "doing it anyway".

I simply wouldn't. I would accept his reasons for not wanting to have sex with me no matter what they were...and I would leave.

You can have it your way, I'll take mine. I don't want someone to "just do it" with me. You do, that's great.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Reasons for LD:
> 
> *Hormonal issues* - usually this person will have low drive their whole life if it is truly hormonal. Not likely to change unless due to a hormonal change.
> 
> ...


I would add personal preference to the list.

Sexuality, like all human traits, has a distribution range that absolutely dictates that at least some of the individuals just don't have much interest for no reason to which you can apply a simple label. 

To require a cause for low desire is to immediately pathologize it. Remember, by definition, half the people in the world have a double digit IQ.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> Ok John...you are right, I'll just leave it at that. Every spouse should force themselves to have sex with their spouse, regardless of lack of attraction, pain, suffering, or past deeds that spouse ever did. Sex should be purely a NON-emotional physical act of getting off and therefore, there is no reason ever to not have sex. You win!
> 
> To me that is gross, as I want someone who emotionally wants me, physically wants me, and is capable of real emotional connection. If I woke up one day and my husband didn't fit that description anymore, I would "try" (varies with the circumstances) to see if it could change back...but in the end I wouldn't stick around for it.
> 
> ...


I don't think that they should force themselves to have sex. I do think that they should force themselves to really look at why they don't want sex with their spouse, including looking at themselves.

This is where I do see a lot more selfishness in LD spouses, because I think many don't want to embark on that level of introspection. So they are selfish in that the care more for their own comfort than the needs of their spouse or the relationship.

I agree that if they are not willing to do that, leaving is an acceptable choice.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

Catherine602 said:


> Besides love and desire is sexual satisfaction. There are many threads from women who are sexually frustrated but have problems with their husband changing.
> 
> Either their husbands are hypersensitive or won't listen or they change for a only a short period of time.
> 
> ...


I can only speak for myself in this matter....

My wife had her first orgasm with a partner the first time I made love to her....It was classic PIV missionary...She was absolutely stunned.....surprised, and completely delighted....Her words " I didn't know sex could be like that".....

Until that night she had staunchly refused, even though being aroused to the point of tears on more than one occasion.....

Having only seen the selfish side of male sexuality, she was taken aback by someone who could be ardent, and forceful, and yet generous, and gentle....We were almost inseparable from that night on....

I always loved foreplay, and stimulated her till she asked me to begin intercourse....Her orgasm was ALWAYS a foregone conclusion.....On more than one occasion her orgasms caused her to faint dead away......Yes really...

As we drew closer, I introduced her to oral sex (which she refused at first) Her upbringing had made her uptight about some aspects of sexuality.....In the first year of our marriage she learned to appreciate it a great deal, and did so for most of our married life....It was almost always a part of every sexual encounter....

Over the years, she was an eager, and willing lover. probably refusing sex no more than a dozen times in 30 years.......

I recently asked her if she ever wished for something more in our sex life...Her reply was an absolute NO....

That I was as close to a perfect lover as any woman could want......Ardent, inventive, willing to experiment, open to anything, but never demanding anything she would not be willing to do (except oral on me)....Which she suddenly decided all on her own was not so bad after all, only a few years ago...

And yet this woman, having loved and been loved for over 3 decades became a consistent sex refuser....

Not by saying no, but by always setting the stage with professed fatigue, stress, lack of sleep, vague symptoms of illness, etc....Always sending out signals that sex at the moment would just be too much for any decent man to expect....but would probably be fine in just a day or two....but which never came.....

This became a predictable pattern for a period of about 4 years....

It got to the point that the excuses were so far fetched as to be ridiculous....Almost like she *wanted* me to play the bullsh!t card...

I can only say that her lack of satisfaction was NEVER a factor in our sex life, and yet it came to the same inglorious end described by other men on this thread.....It may have lasted longer, but burned out just as surely...And the darkness was even blacker, for the memory of the light....

the woodchuck


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Ok John...you are right, I'll just leave it at that. Every spouse should force themselves to have sex with their spouse, regardless of lack of attraction, pain, suffering, or past deeds that spouse ever did. Sex should be purely a NON-emotional physical act of getting off and therefore, there is no reason ever to not have sex. You win!


Well, thank you 

All I am doing is pointing out that our choices control out emotions and not the other way 'round. If people had to build emotional fairy tales to get laid we'd solve the overpopulation problem faster than Trojan ever did.

Dr. Mrs. LD becomes an emotional basket case if her client as much as frowns at her wisdom. Dr. John here has far thicker skin and has survived project reviews far worse than dealing with a bus full of BPD's. I choose to not be concerned. She chooses to stir personal, family, and work issues into the same cauldron. 

Sex is no different.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

john117 said:


> I choose to not be concerned. She chooses to stir personal, family, and work issues into the same cauldron.
> 
> Sex is no different.


I don't think your wife is the only one who does that. Many people have a hard time compartmentalizing. If I'm upset about something, especially if it's something with my partner, I can't put it in a box and ignore it to have sex. It stays on my mind until it's resolved one way or another.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

norajane said:


> I don't think your wife is the only one who does that. Many people have a hard time compartmentalizing. If I'm upset about something, especially if it's something with my partner, I can't put it in a box and ignore it to have sex. It stays on my mind until it's resolved one way or another.


I can understand that with your partner on major things, but what about minor things? What about life in general? I am not trying to be snarky, but would like any insight on dealing with this issue.

I do get the difficulty here, but I also then see only have sex when everything is perfect. Since that so rarely happens, it seems like an impossible standard to meet with any regularlity.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Cletus said:


> To require a cause for low desire is to immediately pathologize it. Remember, by definition, half the people in the world have a double digit IQ.


Yet they are able to cope with it, work in fulfilling jobs that pay well and have great lives largely without impacting other people's lives.

Not so with "unmanaged" LD unless they find an equally LD partner or stay single.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Cletus said:


> I would add personal preference to the list.
> 
> Sexuality, like all human traits, has a distribution range that absolutely dictates that at least some of the individuals just don't have much interest for no reason to which you can apply a simple label.
> 
> To require a cause for low desire is to immediately pathologize it. Remember, by definition, half the people in the world have a double digit IQ.


I could relate to this.. I don't hate sex, I enjoy it if I am in the right mindset to do it.. but I need to be reminded to have sex, otherwise it would keep on being pushed aside, due to my mind being preoccupied with other matters, such as work and activities.. That's why my wife and I are very much into scheduled weekend sex.. it works great for us.. Maybe you could label me LD on WeekDays(TM)


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

john_lord_b3 said:


> I could relate to this.. I don't hate sex, I enjoy it if I am in the right mindset to do it.. but I need to be reminded to have sex, otherwise it would keep on being pushed aside, due to my mind being preoccupied with other matters, such as work and activities.. That's why my wife and I are very much into scheduled weekend sex.. it works great for us.. Maybe you could label me LD on WeekDays(TM)


In our 30's we were working full time, grad school part time, both of us working on our research and dissertations, raising a very spirited preschooler, and having another baby in the middle of a semester..... And still had plenty of time for sex 

As you said, schedule is key.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

So just so I can get this straight, some of you HD's are saying:

*There is no acceptable reason to be LD.

*Your LD spouses actually DO want to have sex and they have normal (as decided by you, based on your own) feelings of desire but they are just mean or mentally ill or selfish and that is why they don't have sex with you.

*You would rather have them "just do it" and have sex with you and shut up about their non-existent reasons and stop being selfish.

*You think they actually DO get pleasure out of sex even if it is duty sex, you think that they just don't want to let you see them having pleasure.

*You the HD, are never selfish in anyway yourself...you are the model of perfection and sexiness.


Sure, that makes sense.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I can understand that with your partner on major things, but what about minor things? What about life in general? I am not trying to be snarky, but would like any insight on dealing with this issue.
> 
> I do get the difficulty here, but I also then see only have sex when everything is perfect. Since that so rarely happens, it seems like an impossible standard to meet with any regularlity.


For me, that's what vacations and long weekends are for. It gives us an opportunity to clear out the stresses and cobwebs and to connect with each other. It works to refresh me as far as my job, my life, and my relationship. We take vacations seriously, lol, and make sure we go and go _away_ at least two or three times a year.

As far as day to day, we do have date night once a week where it's just all about us and everything else is set aside as much as possible. Things like work problems or when my mom was sick or other issues can still stay on my mind then, but for the most part, I can try to block it out for a night.

But I generally don't harbor underlying resentment or discontent with my partner. If I'm upset about something major or minor, I'm not capable of not bringing it up and allowing it to fester. He might describe me as too "intense" in that way, but I was raised in an emotionally expressive immigrant family where we say what we're feeling and what comes to mind even though it's hard and then it blows over right away without lingering resentment. If that keeps happening too often, then I'd have to re-think our relationship and make sure we fix what needs fixing because I don't want to live like that, upset all the time.

Oh, and we don't have kids. That probably helps a lot.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> So just so I can get this straight, some of you HD's are saying:
> 
> *There is no acceptable reason to be LD.


Nope.

It is perfectly acceptable to be LD. Or HD.

It is not perfectly acceptable to keep things the way they are if they are impacting the marriage.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

norajane said:


> For me, that's what vacations and long weekends are for. It gives us an opportunity to clear out the stresses and cobwebs and to connect with each other. It works to refresh me as far as my job, my life, and my relationship. We take vacations seriously, lol, and make sure we go and go _away_ at least two or three times a year.
> 
> As far as day to day, we do have date night once a week where it's just all about us and everything else is set aside as much as possible. Things like work problems or when my mom was sick or other issues can still stay on my mind then, but for the most part, I can try to block it out for a night.
> 
> ...


Thanks. I guess the answer is don't think about the stresses, but I am not sure how well that really works.

I say that because so much of the stress in life is about stuff apart from the actual relationship, whether it is work, family, friends, bills, you name it. Couple that with posts from some who say that sex is "icing on the cake" in a relationship, and I wonder when that icing will every come for them.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I'm HD. I want sex pretty much anytime, and I want it with my husband, whom I adore and am sexually attracted to, and I don't want it with anyone else.

But I understand that not everyone is like me. I have spent a lot of time to understand the many differences in levels of desire and sexuality. I accept that if someone else is different than me, then they are how they are. I believe their reasons, whatever they are, to want or not want sex. I don't dare to say the way I am is how people "should be". Many LD people have told me that they would not want to be "like me" (HD), that it would not be preferable to them at all. I accept them as they are.

Then there comes the point of expecting someone to want to have sex with you.

I don't expect anyone wants to have sex with me, not even my husband. He does want to, and I consider that a gift to me. If he did not want to for ANY REASON, I would consider that his deal and would accept it and not fight against it or try to convince him he "should" want to have sex with me or that he "should" do it even if he didn't want to.

Hey - LOTS of people don't want to have sex with me! No hard feelings!

If my husband had no desire for me, I would try to work it out but not for very long. I would still be in love with him probably, but without sex, I'd be gone. Why would I stick around and try to convince him that he is being selfish?

I'm not saying anyone should do it the way I would. I'm just offering ANOTHER way of handling this problem. You really don't have to beat your heads against a wall.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> So just so I can get this straight, some of you HD's are saying:
> 
> *There is no acceptable reason to be LD.
> 
> ...


No.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Sorry, that's how I am reading it, TAG. Call it a generalization if you want, I'm just saying how I see it.

Er, ok I see you changed your response. I didn't think it was that snarky...but anyway, you can say "no" but it doesn't change how *I* am reading some of the guys here. My opinion is that is how they sound.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> If my husband had no desire for me, I would try to work it out but not for very long. I would still be in love with him probably, but without sex, I'd be gone. Why would I stick around and try to convince him that he is being selfish?


Not quite as easy to do if you have two very lengthy very expensive college educations to pay for. 

Let's put it into perspective. Less sex and a top 10 school for my kids or more sex and either a bunch of loans or a ho hum school.

Try to explain to your kid "sorry Billy, if your mom put out more we'd stay together and you'd be heading to Northwestern but now we're divorcing and you will be headed to Podunk State instead...

If you have no kids or have a trust fund named after you, nothing to it. Not quite so simple otherwise.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I've already done it once, John. How many times do I have to say that? I have put my butt where my words are and have gone through the whole song and dance and left...and I'm not even saying that it was my ex-h's "fault". We were a sexual mismatch. And guess what? I DID explain to my TWO kids why I got divorced as soon as they were old enough to understand it.....and I stopped modeling a sexless marriage for them and explained that, too.

NOW they see me happy and healthy and having a sexfilled marriage that they hopefully will model.

What else ya got?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

john117 said:


> Not quite as easy to do if you have two very lengthy very expensive college educations to pay for.
> 
> Let's put it into perspective. Less sex and a top 10 school for my kids or more sex and either a bunch of loans or a ho hum school.
> 
> ...


At the risk of the threadjack, the cost of a top 10 school exceeds the value proposition by a couple of orders of magnitude unless you intend to run for President one day. 

But at least your wife helped set a nice trap for you from which you can't easily escape. Evil AND creative. Dr. Mrs. Palpatine.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Thanks. I guess the answer is don't think about the stresses, but I am not sure how well that really works.
> 
> I say that because so much of the stress in life is about stuff apart from the actual relationship, whether it is work, family, friends, bills, you name it. Couple that with posts from some who say that sex is "icing on the cake" in a relationship, and I wonder when that icing will every come for them.


I hear you. I have to say a little alcohol helps to put the stress on hold during date nights. I know that won't work for everyone, but a nice bottle of wine with dinner definitely works for us.

That's not an every day thing, and we have a great sex life outside date nights, but date night is like a mini-vacation for us when the goal is to shut everything else out except for us. Having that one night where we can forget about everything else is refreshing and helps the rest of the week, too.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

john117 said:


> It would be too simple to consider that just because there are 10 causes for an event, that they are evenly distributed. I prefer to focus on Pareto's Principle, where 80% of the events are typically caused by 20% of the causes.
> 
> Also, many of the reasons listed are not root causes in themselves but can be decomposed further. Ultimately it's down to:
> 
> ...


I'm not suggesting that they are "evenly distributed." However, I DO think there are a myriad of reasons why a person turns LD, besides pure unadulterated _selfishness._ And more women struggle with climaxing than you might think, btw. According to some studies at least 10% of women might not ever orgasm during their lifetimes :Primary Orgasmic Dysfunction: Diagnostic Considerations and Review of Treatment

If 10% of women will never orgasm, I'd wager that the percentage of women who regularly struggle with an orgasm is much higher than 10%.

When men have sex, they are virtually guaranteed an orgasm (unless they struggle with ED or another disorder). Maybe SOME women don't get the same physical pay-off and this impacts their physical drive. 

It's not always so easy to "compartmentalize." It might be easy for a man to do this when an orgasm comes easily for him. But MANY women have to concentrate much more to get physical pleasure from sex. I think it's asking a little much to ask them to completely set aside their emotions. I'm not saying things have to be "perfect" because, let's face it, they never are. However, your emotions DO play a great role in a positive sexual experience, whether you like it or not.

Oh, and I should have added, there is Viagra for ED--a solution. A LD spouse with a problem? She's just selfish--or frigid.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Cletus said: "But at least your wife helped set a nice trap for you from which you can't easily escape. Evil AND creative."


Sigh....really? A nice trap. Even though he chooses to stay in the trap and beat his head against a wall. She is evil? Because she doesn't want to have sex with him? Now I've heard everything.

I will add to the LD list:

*They are EVIL, the DEVIL is making them not want to have sex with you. Please call an exorcist ASAP so they might f*ck you again sometime soon.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> Sorry, that's how I am reading it, TAG. Call it a generalization if you want, I'm just saying how I see it.
> 
> Er, ok I see you changed your response. I didn't think it was that snarky...but anyway, you can say "no" but it doesn't change how *I* am reading some of the guys here. My opinion is that is how they sound.


Well, it is a generalization. You say some, but appear to apply it to any HD man that is frustrated. Your choice, but when you apply that brush to us all, your opinion will be given less weight by some, because in our opinion you are dismissive of more nuanced concerns.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Cletus said: "But at least your wife helped set a nice trap for you from which you can't easily escape. Evil AND creative."
> 
> 
> Sigh....really? A nice trap. Even though he chooses to stay in the trap and beat his head against a wall. She is evil? Because she doesn't want to have sex with him? Now I've heard everything.
> ...


Just playing along with the "All LD is a weighted combination of stupidity/evil" conjecture. Since the Dr. Mrs. Evil is by virtue of a Ph.D demonstrably not stupid, there remains but a single explanation.

It takes considerable foresight, planning, and dare I say malice aforethought to trap a man you truly have no desire to bed with long term education expenses, wouldn't you say?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

TAG said: "Your choice, but when you apply that brush to us all, your opinion will be given less weight by some, because in our opinion you are dismissive of more nuanced concerns."


What "more nuanced" concerns? It appears to be ENTIRELY about "he/she won't have sex with me".


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

So Cletus...you were kidding then? I am not sure.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

momtwo4 said:


> I'm not suggesting that they are "evenly distributed." However, I DO think there are a myriad of reasons why a person turns LD, besides pure unadulterated _selfishness._ And more women struggle with climaxing than you might think, btw. According to some studies at least 10% of women might not ever orgasm during their lifetimes :Primary Orgasmic Dysfunction: Diagnostic Considerations and Review of Treatment
> 
> If 10% of women will never orgasm, I'd wager that the percentage of women who regularly struggle with an orgasm is much higher than 10%.
> 
> When men have sex, they are virtually guaranteed an orgasm (unless they struggle with ED or another disorder). Maybe SOME women don't get the same physical pay-off and this impacts their physical drive.


I do think it is important to remember that there can be more than one reason. Hormones may make it more difficult to orgasm. Depression can result from illness or injury. A condition may fester because someone is to lazy or selfish to seek the help they need or make their own improvements.



> It's not always so easy to "compartmentalize." It might be easy for a man to do this when an orgasm comes easily for him. But MANY women have to concentrate much more to get physical pleasure from sex. I think it's asking a little much to ask them to completely set aside their emotions. I'm not saying things have to be "perfect" because, let's face it, they never are. However, your emotions DO play a great role in a positive sexual experience, whether you like it or not.
> 
> Oh, and I should have added, there is Viagra for ED--a solution. A LD spouse with a problem? She's just selfish--or frigid.


She is selfish if she is not upfront with her partner about it. Be that confirm that she is happy with how things are and will not change to recognizing that she wants things to change and is taking steps to work on it.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

A man denied....

When my wife was hungry I fed her...
When my wife was cold I warmed her...
When my wife was injured I bound her wound...
When my wife was ill I nursed her...
When my wife was grieving I comforted her...
When my wife was burdened I helped her...

I have done all these things, because I love her, and have seen her in need, and offered relief....

And my need for her as a lover...
has the pangs of hunger....
the shivering of a chill...
the pain of an injury...
the ache of being ill...
the sadness of grief...
the weight of a heavy burden....

And she saw, and she knew, and she professed to love, and she did nothing.......Why

the woodchuck


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> So Cletus...you were kidding then? I am not sure.


Tongue firmly in cheek.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

momtwo4 said:


> I'm not suggesting that they are "evenly distributed." However, I DO think there are a myriad of reasons why a person turns LD, besides pure unadulterated _selfishness._


The pure unadulterated selfishness part is if they continue to stay the course even tho it impacts their partner and marriage.

I would have been as happy as a clam if my partner gave me the dear John routine that hey, we're too old, I don't want sex any more, blah, blah. I'd rather take that than the myriads of manufactured illnesses, staged fights, headaches, and the like used to 'convince' me that she really is not in the mood.

Btw, Viagra does zip for desire last time I checked... Only fixes the plumbing parts.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

Here's what I think. You are NOT inherently selfish just because you are LD. However, you are selfish if you recognize a problem in your marriage (no matter what that problem might be) and you do nothing to solve it, even though you could. It really is that simple.

Edited to add that you are also selfish if you refuse to acknowledge a problem in your marriage just because it does not seem important to YOU. If it is important to your spouse, it should become important to you as well.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Just playing along with the "All LD is a weighted combination of stupidity/evil" conjecture. Since the Dr. Mrs. Evil is by virtue of a Ph.D demonstrably not stupid, there remains but a single explanation.
> 
> It takes considerable foresight, planning, and dare I say malice aforethought to trap a man you truly have no desire to bed with long term education expenses, wouldn't you say?


Not quite. There is stupid and there is stupid, just like there is evil and there is evil. The feisty Dr. Mrs. LD can solve massive number crunching problems in her (now plentiful ) sleep. She's not street smart, commensurate with any 1% ruling elite progeny I am familiar with. 

Actually I am the one doing the "trapping". If it were up to her we'd be spending to oblivion...


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

momtwo4 said:


> Here's what I think. You are NOT inherently selfish just because you are LD. However, you are selfish if you recognize a problem in your marriage (no matter what that problem might be) and you do nothing to solve it, even though you could. It really is that simple.


:iagree: that is correct. By nature I don't put sex in the highest topmost priority of my life. I could, and did, went on without sex for a year, because I have other things to do. But I do recognize that my wife has needs too, so we settled in a frequency and schedule we both are comfortable with. I stay in shape, use my food supplements wisely, and learned self-suggestion techniques to get myself in the mood when it's the "scheduled weekend showtime". Problems solved.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> I've already done it once, John. How many times do I have to say that? I have put my butt where my words are and have gone through the whole song and dance and left...and I'm not even saying that it was my ex-h's "fault". We were a sexual mismatch. And guess what? I DID explain to my TWO kids why I got divorced as soon as they were old enough to understand it.....and I stopped modeling a sexless marriage for them and explained that, too


In divorces, the devil is in the details. Do you throw out 25 good years for 5 bad? Divorcing at 10 years with few assets and immediate obligations is a lot easier than at 25 with lots more immediate obligations and assets...

But, you pick your poison I guess. In my case I valued my kids future more than I value my own, so the only time divorce came up was when she refused to allow our older one to pursue her dream college choice (major and college). Never mind the kid's stunning talent or aptitude, "the ruling elite progeny must all be doctors or lawyers or (as a last resort) dentists" . She backed off once I started gathering divorce paperwork in parallel with college applications. Fast forward three years, the kid is a magna cum laude student with good scholarships etc yet she won't acknowledge she was wrong.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Nice, trying to shame me for my choices, John. You think you have some kind of moral high ground because you choose to put YOUR CHOICES on your children's shoulders and pretend it is "for them"? They are apparently grown now. What's the excuse now?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I am not trying to shame anyone... You have your priorities and I have mine. Fairly simple.

My only priority is my children's future, otherwise I could retire in two years. A 20 year old may be an adult but without a trust fund or a sugar daddy finding six figures for college is a bit difficult.

The math at 35 years of age looks remarkably different than the math at 55... That is all I am saying.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> I'm HD. I want sex pretty much anytime, and I want it with my husband, whom I adore and am sexually attracted to, and I don't want it with anyone else.
> 
> But I understand that not everyone is like me. I have spent a lot of time to understand the many differences in levels of desire and sexuality. I accept that if someone else is different than me, then they are how they are. I believe their reasons, whatever they are, to want or not want sex. I don't dare to say the way I am is how people "should be". Many LD people have told me that they would not want to be "like me" (HD), that it would not be preferable to them at all. I accept them as they are.
> 
> ...


I think you made the correct choice, and I think most people in your situation should do the same, or at least let your refusing spouse know it is going to happen unless concessions are made...

So far, it is (except for extremely rare cases) the only solution with any possibility of working.....

the woodchuck


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

john....I'm so glad that I plan to allow my adult children to succeed or not, as they are adults and it is no longer my job to live their lives for them. I'm also glad that I don't confuse my children's future to have ANYTHING to do with my sex life. Man, that would really be a mind screw to have to have thoughts like "hmm...sex? Oh wait, I can't because I have to consider how my adult children will survive".


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

john_lord_b3 said:


> :iagree: that is correct. By nature I don't put sex in the highest topmost priority of my life. I could, and did, went on without sex for a year, because I have other things to do. But I do recognize that my wife has needs too, so we settled in a frequency and schedule we both are comfortable with. I stay in shape, use my food supplements wisely, and learned self-suggestion techniques to get myself in the mood when it's the "scheduled weekend showtime". Problems solved.


You sir are no unicorn.....You ride in a chariot pulled by a score of unicorns......

Your honesty in admitting a problem....

Your introspection in isolating the problem...

And your actions to solve the problem place you on a rare pinnacle.....

I hope you do not get dizzy, the air at such heights is very thin.... :allhail:

the woodchuck


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

john117 said:


> In our 30's we were working full time, grad school part time, both of us working on our research and dissertations, raising a very spirited preschooler, and having another baby in the middle of a semester..... And still had plenty of time for sex
> 
> As you said, *schedule is key*.


:smthumbup: Indeed, and I must commend on your amazing time management!


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Woodchuck said:


> You sir are no unicorn.....You ride in a chariot pulled by a score of unicorns......
> 
> Your honesty in admitting a problem....
> 
> ...


:smnotworthy:ray::smnotworthy: thank you very much Sir Woodchuck!

I am sure there are other wonderful LDs also, of both gender.. but maybe they don't post here in TAM because they are too busy enjoying their happy married life


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

It's all cultural. Paying for two expensive college educations gives me Carte Blanche to interfere (*) with my kids lives till I croak.... Par for the course where I came from. But then I raised them pretty much on my own so it is not much of a surprise. 

(*) in a benevolent way that is, as most of my girls' suitors will surely arrest to


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

It is cultural? Really? Um, ok.

I am an adult and I have an adult, mutually satisfying sex life.

My kids are adults and I raised them well and they are succeeding.

These two statements have nothing to do with each other, nor do they have to do with my culture. They have to do with my parenting and my sex life.

I like how you keep going round a merry go round about this though. "It is all her fault". "No, wait, it is my choice to stay". "No, her fault". "No, my choice". "My kids need me to raise them, apparently until I am in a retirement home, and this is more important to me than sex". "No, I do want sex but it is her fault I can't have any". "No, it is my kids' fault". And round and round.


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## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

Ok I am to old to follow this thread I guess...... john and Faithful Wife I always enjoy reading your posts but you lost me on this one have not got a clue what your going on about on this one...? :-/
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

john_lord_b3 said:


> :smnotworthy:ray::smnotworthy: thank you very much Sir Woodchuck!
> 
> I am sure there are other wonderful LDs also, of both gender.. but maybe they don't post here in TAM because they are too busy enjoying their happy married life


I truly hope this is the case, and only the rare failures show up on TAM

the woodchuck


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Its ok mineforever. I'm confused, too. I didn't realize that one could blame the condition of their sex life on their adult children, but apparently, they can.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Adult children? They were 15 and 13 when The Rapture occurred. 

Try not to read between the lines, it generally helps. Also to not oversimplify complex family and interpersonal dynamics.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

But they are adults now, right?

And what is there to oversimplify?

Your wife is "selfish" and you "have to" suffer because of it because your adult kids can't function or succeed if you leave. That's the whole deal, right? It sure seems to be from what you have written.

Pretty simple. All her fault, none yours.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The Rapture occurred in 2009 so they are 19 and 17 now... And shoulder none of the responsibility.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Duly noted. Not your kids' fault.

The blame lies squarely on your wife's shoulders, as she is "selfish" and apparently also mentally ill.

Thank goodness none of it falls on your shoulders though, right? That's the important part.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Woodchuck said:


> A man denied....
> 
> When my wife was hungry I fed her...
> When my wife was cold I warmed her...
> ...


I think because . . . it's hard for some women to empathize. She saw, yes, but did she REALLY "know?" 

Well, maybe not. I didn't. Not because I didn't sympathize with my husband's unhappiness (I could see he was unhappy.) It's just that I resented him putting all that unhappiness on *my *shoulders when it looked to me like *he* wasn't doing anything to address it himself. He didn't spend time with friends. He worked too much. He wasn't getting any exercise. His sleep habits were poor. He wouldn't manage his depression.

I had pulled myself out of a period of unhappiness years ago WITHOUT HIS HELP. Now, I figured, it was his turn. I didn't think it was fair that he was pointing the finger at me, telling ME that it was MY responsibility to cure all his ills. 

I didn't BELIEVE that it was sexual rejection that was doing this to him. I thought he was blame shifting. Being lazy. I had bootstrapped myself out of my funk without sex, without his affection, without him meeting my emotional needs, why couldn't he? 

Well, because he is a man. 

I think we have a tendency to think the human experience is universal--that we all have fundamental needs that should be understood by anyone else, most of all our most intimate partners. But I really do think there is a gulf between women and men IN GENERAL (I have no interest in participating in a discussion of whether such gender generalizations are useful or appropriate. I'm generalizing, I acknowledge that, period.) 

This "gulf" is what prevents LD women from "giving in" to their HD husbands; it is what prevents HD husbands from "giving in" to their LD wives. We're all just NOT operating in the same frame of reference, the same reality, with the same tools--however you want to say it. For the most part there is no evil intent, there is no stupid factor. It's just really, really hard, sometimes, to accept that the shoes our partner wears are nothing like the ones we wear. 

I do see both women and men on these forums trying very hard to negotiate the gulf. But failure to make positive headway, unfortunately, can very quickly lead to feelings of resentment for one party or both. Resentment makes it a whole other ball game. Until resentment is dislodged, good luck moving forward with bridging the gulf.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

momtwo4 said:


> Here's what I think. You are NOT inherently selfish just because you are LD. However, you are selfish if you recognize a problem in your marriage (no matter what that problem might be) and you do nothing to solve it, even though you could. It really is that simple.
> 
> Edited to add that you are also selfish if you refuse to acknowledge a problem in your marriage just because it does not seem important to YOU. If it is important to your spouse, it should become important to you as well.


I agree, but want to add that sexual problems are a little different because sex often doesn't mean the same thing to women as it does to men. 

Here is an example: A wife has a husband who is over weight with unhealthy habits. She is concerned, she wants him to be around for her and the kids, etc. She asks the husband to change his habits. He knows it's a problem, but he works long hours, he coaches his son's baseball team, and he helps care for his ailing parents. WHEN does he have the time to cook healthy foods and exercise? He is TIRED and STRESSED and hearing his wife nag him about his health is making things worse. He tries, things go well for a few weeks, and then something happens to derail his efforts and things go back to unhealthy.

Is the husband being a selfish prick, or is he doing the best he can?

His wife knows that helping her husband get healthy is a fine line. Demanding won't work, ignoring the problem won't work. But things go on, unchanged. She still loves him, fulfills his emotional (sexual) needs, etc. Why? Because even though he's unhealthy, he can STILL FULFILL HER EMOTIONAL needs. 

And LD spouse cannot, without "getting healthy" fulfill her husband's emotional needs. Now "getting healthy" can mean a lot of different things here. For me, it meant doing the emotional work to get back my own HD state. For others, it might mean staying LD, but finding a way to (willfully, happily) fulfill the sexual/emotional needs of the HD spouse. 

Sex is just different from other needs. LD partners sometimes have a hard time recognizing that. Not because they are selfish or evil or stupid, but because it can be hard to comprehend.

I know, I know, you HD fellas are out there shaking your heads . . . but I'm telling you, it was such a HUGE revelation to me. I might be denser than the average woman, but then again, maybe I'm just the average woman.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

GettingIt said:


> I agree, but want to add that sexual problems are a little different because sex often doesn't mean the same thing to women as it does to men.
> 
> Here is an example: A wife has a husband who is over weight with unhealthy habits. She is concerned, she wants him to be around for her and the kids, etc. She asks the husband to change his habits. He knows it's a problem, but he works long hours, he coaches his son's baseball team, and he helps care for his ailing parents. WHEN does he have the time to cook healthy foods and exercise? He is TIRED and STRESSED and hearing his wife nag him about his health is making things worse. He tries, things go well for a few weeks, and then something happens to derail his efforts and things go back to unhealthy.
> 
> ...


:iagree: Very insightful post. Thank you for sharing!!


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

GettingIt said:


> This "gulf" is what prevents LD women from "giving in" to their HD husbands; it is what prevents HD husbands from "giving in" to their LD wives. We're all just NOT operating in the same frame of reference, the same reality, with the same tools--however you want to say it. For the most part there is no evil intent, there is no stupid factor. It's just really, really hard, sometimes, to accept that the shoes our partner wears are nothing like the ones we wear.


I think there is an element of trust, or lack thereof, here. To bridge the gulf, we need to trust that our partner is not using us, is being honest with us and with themselves, truly needs us to give like this and is truly giving the best that they can. That can be very difficult to do.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I think there is an element of trust, or lack thereof, here. To bridge the gulf, we need to trust that our partner is not using us, is being honest with us and with themselves, truly needs us to give like this and is truly giving the best that they can. That can be very difficult to do.


I could not agree more. Until you can trust that your partner is being honest and not trying to "win" in some sort of power struggle, you cannot expect progress. Finding it within ourselves to trust another human (even a spouse) on that level can be very, very hard. It's human nature to protect ourselves from complete emotional vulnerability.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

GettingIt said:


> Now "getting healthy" can mean a lot of different things here. For me, it meant doing the emotional work to get back my own HD state. For others, it might mean staying LD, but finding a way to (willfully, happily) fulfill the sexual/emotional needs of the HD spouse.


You have a leg up on many of the LD people here, in person or by proxy of their spouse - 

You knew what it was like at one time to desire sex.

Many of them do not, as they have never had that desire to begin with.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> Sex is just different from other needs. LD partners sometimes have a hard time recognizing that. Not because they are selfish or evil or stupid, but because it can be hard to comprehend.
> .


Hard to comprehend? Hard time understanding? I'm envisioning a giant "S" floating inches away from my iPhone...

Maybe my terminology has not gone thru appropriate peer review but i feel it is pretty accurate. A person that is not in touch with his or her own body, its functions, and performance (turn ons, turn offs) or those of their psrtner because they are "hard to comprehend" or does not understand the implications of their actions is definitely in the "S" ballpark. 

A person that does understand their body, their partner, its functions, etc but chooses to not take action (for one reason or another) is definitely in the "E" category...

In practice it's somewhere in between... And ebbs and flows.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

> My thoughts / experience on the issue: I was a hard-working husband who mostly maintained the home and did very well financially. My ex (unlike most of the other women) did work, although her earnings went overwhelmingly to her own benefit.
> 
> My ex's felt the man should facilitate the woman's happiness on top of meeting the family needs and his own wants. So, having a nice home (expenses and upkeep) is my duty because of her emotional needs (comfort and security). If she had to pitch in substantially towards the bills, I was basically a bum and unworthy to have her around. We've seen this before.


Ah f-ck that, the bad traits of modern feminism and double standards at work. All the privileges of equality in addition to the privileges of a woman while accepting none of the responsibility. You get those, glad that you've moved on. 



> I feel you can only get out what you put in. So, you must put much into your marriage to get much out. If you want to be a equal partner, you need to put in equal effort to family and spousal needs. Claiming superiority based on gender or the type of need is inappropriate (and pointless besides).
> 
> I did not assert that she simply owed me because I had done stuff for her. Rather, I felt I had earned a fair level of accomodation because I had, at her request and for her direct benefit, exerted myself for several hours daily over a period of over a decade. Yet, I could not get her to devote a few hours a week to my needs. I don't think I'm remotely alone on this.


She just wasn't the type, there's nothing you can do about it, society will also support her. In cases like this, sometimes it's a make or break thing in the end. Hence I recommend making boundaries very clear in any potential relationship when it comes to expectations of each other's roles.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

> This "gulf" is what prevents LD women from "giving in" to their HD husbands; it is what prevents HD husbands from "giving in" to their LD wives. We're all just NOT operating in the same frame of reference, the same reality, with the same tools--however you want to say it. For the most part there is no evil intent, there is no stupid factor. It's just really, really hard, sometimes, to accept that the shoes our partner wears are nothing like the ones we wear.


The brain uses conceptual frameworks called "mental models" to represent the physical world and solve problems. For common things it is likely that our mental models are similar; my mental model of a bicycle has two wheels and a seat and pedals, a 3 year old's has three wheels, and so on. Sex is no different. We know "how to do it" as the behavior is baked in. 

We are operating in the same frame of reference, for the most part. Our mental models are remarkably similar. What differs is what model we select to represent the particular issue, event, etc.

Sex, or intimacy, falls into a generalized model of interpersonal relationships. If you have time to kill read some of the literature in mental models of intimacy ie. http://data.psych.udel.edu/laurence...g 2010/Readings/Laurenceau-et-al-2005-JFP.pdf...

It boils down to what factors or constraints are used (subliminally or willingly) to fine-tune those models (cultural, experiential, etc) and of course to select those models in the first place. 

In people that live or work together, shared models develop. When you finish your partners sentences or know exactly what they want for their birthday, there's a shared model back there. Again, intimacy is no different in the grand scheme of things.

In other words, it's not that the partners see things different. They interpret them differently.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

GettingIt said:


> Sex is just different from other needs. LD partners sometimes have a hard time recognizing that. Not because they are selfish or evil or stupid, but because it can be hard to comprehend.
> 
> I know, I know, you HD fellas are out there shaking your heads . . . but I'm telling you, it was such a HUGE revelation to me. I might be denser than the average woman, but then again, maybe I'm just the average woman.


It boils down to whether we choose to use ourselves as the yardstick of what is normal and project that standard onto the rest of humanity or recognize that our spouse's needs may be very different than our own.

Of course this can just as easily be turned around and HD people do need to try to understand the LD perspective.

But I would (again) counter that with the observation that marriage is inherently a sexual arrangement and in the formal language of morality, called ethics, there is a serious commitment that has been made.

(And for the record, I am the LD spouse in my marriage.)


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> The blame lies squarely on your wife's shoulders, as she is "selfish" and apparently also mentally ill.
> 
> Thank goodness none of it falls on your shoulders though, right? That's the important part.


The specific issue is way too complicated to assign blame to any specific individual for why it happened. Off the cuff I can think of the following reasons:

- cultural (the people of Farawaystan are not exactly sex fiends and the culture suppresses sexuality under dire penalties)
- upbringing (lack of positive role models who actually liked each other and showed affection etc)
- insecurity of being a stranger in a strange land (unlike me she did not adapt well to USA culture)
- BPD (traits and sporadic outbreaks for the first 20 years, full symptoms at 20-25)
- work stress (constant)
- family event, losing her sister in a totally unneeded car accident while sister was pursuing an EA)
- The Rapture, where I told her in no uncertain terms that my kids' future is far more important than she is.

As BPD built up the only option for me in order to keep everyone out of an asylum was to meet her symptoms head on. We set very strict limits and ultimately transitioned from a few serious weekly flare-ups to a few mild yearly flare-ups. Think of N. Korea vs S. Korea containment.

Pre-Rapture we were doing acceptably in the sex department, and actually enjoyed each others company. We are extremely different personalities and rarely agreed on anything. But we could negotiate. During and post Rapture she started unilaterally throttling back any affection. I continued my cool Doc routine while giggling at the excuses. I mean, dude, I get paid real money to tell how people think, like I won't notice the weekly sinusitis attacks on the clock? 

Things kept getting rarer and rarer in the sex dept. until in 2013 we embarked in the MMSL, aka Merchant Marine Sex Life. At which point I gave up and turned ND. She tried a few times last month and was told that my idea of intimacy frequency is a bit more often than MMSL so there it stands.

Whose fault it is? Dunno. She had a lot of krap handed to her. I did my best to help but to no avail. Her idea of handling an emotional issue is to rehash it hourly till everyone around her freaks out. No getting over it.

The only thing I regret is not being told. Had she been honest I would have smiled and understood. But a few years of deception does play a number on you... This lack of honesty is her only fault.

My own faults? Too calculating, too Machiavellian, too much of a card counter. I feel I helped her post Rapture, and despite my overall apathy towards her I still talk to her. Not like the old times but not distant - yet -.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

ocotillo said:


> It boils down to whether we choose to use ourselves as the yardstick of what is normal and project that standard onto the rest of humanity or recognize that our spouse's needs may be very different than our own.
> 
> Of course this can just as easily be turned around and HD people do need to try to understand the LD perspective.
> 
> ...


I agree for the most part. But the "choice" part does get a little dicey and complicated--I think it ends up being a process of arriving at that final choice, and not necessarily understanding that there is a choice all along. But maybe I'm a bit sensitive and splitting hairs since I was the LD person making that "choice" for so long. 

As for your observation about marriage being a sexual commitment, I have mixed feelings. It is a sexual commitment in that there is usually an assumption that your spouse is the only person you will have sex with, but (in my and my husband's case), neither of us entered into it with any expectations for guaranteed sexual frequency, quality, etc. I spoke to my husband about this, and he said, in all of the years of our LD/HD struggle, he never felt that I was breaking any sort of marriage vow. Then again, to us, marriage was just a legal state we reluctantly entered into after 11 years of commitment to one another. The state of being married mattered little to us personally in any cultural or religious sense--we did it because we thought it would be easier to raise kids in this society as a married couple (I was 20 weeks into a planned pregnancy on the day we tied the knot). We already had a deep committment to one another. If anything, THIS commitment is where I didn't hold up my end of the bargain, not in the marriage "contract." 

Marriage signifies different things to different people. Witness the recent furor over the SCOTUS decision on DOMA.

Again, I'm splitting hairs, perhaps, but I see the distinction so clearly because I've never held the institution of marriage with as much reverence as many people seem to.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Cletus said:


> You have a leg up on many of the LD people here, in person or by proxy of their spouse -
> 
> You knew what it was like at one time to desire sex.
> 
> Many of them do not, as they have never had that desire to begin with.


I think you are right, but there are plenty of posts here from men who claim they had great sex lives early on in their relationships and then, after a number of years, after parenthood in particular, their wives become the LD partner. They don't want to divorce, they've tried everything they can think of, and are are feeling stuck and desperate. In effect, I recognize my husband.

And what I see from a lot of the husbands is conjecture about the cause of their wives' LD--from "bait and switch" to hormones, to pure selfishness. While I sympathize with the frustration and with the pure sh*ttiness of their situations, and while I have a fairly high tolerance for the subsequent (sometimes rather vitriolic) venting, I feel like they are not "getting it" in their relationships anymore than I was.

Which is why I'm still here.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> And what I see from a lot of the husbands is conjecture about the cause of their wives' LD--from "bait and switch" to hormones, to pure selfishness. While I sympathize with the frustration and with the pure sh*ttiness of their situations, and while *I have a fairly high tolerance for the subsequent (sometimes rather vitriolic) venting*, I feel like they are not "getting it" in their relationships anymore than I was.
> 
> Which is why I'm still here.


Mrs. GettingIt, ah, now that we're into that subject, I am very very curious, how did you manage to tolerate the venting of those poor men? I mean, oftentimes when the venting started, it is almost guaranteed that some other members will feel compelled to "retaliate". But you, you always seems to have cooler head and maintain your composure. How did you to that?


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

john_lord_b3 said:


> Mrs. GettingIt, ah, now that we're into that subject, I am very very curious, how did you manage to tolerate the venting of those poor men? I mean, oftentimes when the venting started, it is almost guaranteed that some other members will feel compelled to "retaliate". But you, you always seems to have cooler head and maintain your composure. How did you to that?


1. This is the internet. I have no vested interest in winning an argument with strangers, so I feel little motivation for engaging in one. 

2. If you are willing to listen, you can find value in almost any point of view. 

3. Anger usually comes from pain. The pain resonates with me more than the anger. 

4. I am here to learn and to share my experience, not to seek validation for my opinions. 

5. I am a consummate and hopeless humanist. Meaning, I love you all.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

In a sentence, Know Thyself as the ancients said. It's nothing more than a feedback loop. You know yourself, your current situation, the desired situation, and from there it's just a matter of connecting the dots assuming you see them.

Most people don't see the dots let alone connect them.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> 1. This is the internet. I have no vested interest in winning an argument with strangers, so I feel little motivation for engaging in one.
> 
> 2. If you are willing to listen, you can find value in almost any point of view.
> 
> ...


:allhail::yay::yay::yay::smnotworthy::smnotworthy:

Mrs. GettingIt, you are a credit to this Forum. If you write a book about how to be a better person, I'll order an autographed copy!


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

john_lord_b3 said:


> :allhail::yay::yay::yay::smnotworthy::smnotworthy:
> 
> Mrs. GettingIt, you are a credit to this Forum. If you write a book about how to be a better person, I'll order an autographed copy!


Aw, thanks john_lord. (Where is the "blushing" emoji?)

I feel like I get far more than I give here, just by observing the give and take between different personalities, experiences, and points of view. We all, each of us, must decide for ourselves what would make us a better person. My path is only my own.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

GettingIt said:


> As for your observation about marriage being a sexual commitment, I have mixed feelings. It is a sexual commitment in that there is usually an assumption that your spouse is the only person you will have sex with...


In ethics, it's called concomitant obligation. (Yes I know nobody likes that particular O word...)

As I said earlier on this thread, if as a precondition of marriage, you had to agree to only ever eat food personally provided by your husband, he would have a concomitant obligation to feed you. If he accepts a promise which places an important need of yours in his hand, he can't turn his back on it and pretend nothing is required of him.



GettingIt said:


> ...but (in my and my husband's case), neither of us entered into it with any expectations for guaranteed sexual frequency, quality, etc...


My observation is anytime you're dealing with more than one single human being, needs are defined by the person who is in need. If you're on a family road trip and one child needs to pee, does the fact that the other four of you don't having any bearing on that? 

Or let's assume that you and your husband talk in general terms about going out to dinner. You have a day from hell and can't even stop for lunch. By 5:00 PM, you're climbing the walls. He picks you up from work, drives right by the restaurant with an indifferent shrug and an "I'm not hungry" when you ask him why he didn't stop. You're the one in need here and his lack of need can't be spun as a need in its own right.

Maybe I'm being grossly unfair here. Maybe it's easier for a man to get himself in the mood to accommodate an HD wife. I don't know.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

ocotillo said:


> In ethics, it's called concomitant obligation. (Yes I know nobody likes that particular O word...)
> 
> As I said earlier on this thread, if as a precondition of marriage, you had to agree to only ever eat food personally provided by your husband, he would have a concomitant obligation to feed you. If he accepts a promise which places an important need of yours in his hand, he can't turn his back on it and pretend nothing is required of him.


The problem I see with this framing is that using terminology like "concomitant" preassumes a universal understanding of a condition--in this case, "marriage." The only truly universal understanding of marriage (in the US, which is where I am located) is the legal one. Any other meaning assigned is up to the individual to negotiate with themselves and with their partner. I know a lot of married couples. The only thing their marriages really have in common is the legal standing of their union.



ocotillo said:


> My observation is anytime you're dealing with more than one single human being, needs are defined by the person who is in need. If you're on a family road trip and one child needs to pee, does the fact that the other four of you don't having any bearing on that?


No, but again, it us up to those individuals to negotiate how to respond to that need. 



ocotillo said:


> Or let's assume that you and your husband talk in general terms about going out to dinner. You have a day from hell and can't even stop for lunch. By 5:00 PM, you're climbing the walls. He picks you up from work, drives right by the restaurant with an indifferent shrug and an "I'm not hungry" when you ask him why he didn't stop. You're the one in need here and his lack of need can't be spun as a need in its own right.


And again, you negotiate response to needs in relationships as autonomous individuals, not as participants in a contract that prescribes anything beyond legal status. 



ocotillo said:


> Maybe I'm being grossly unfair here. Maybe it's easier for a man to get himself in the mood to accommodate an HD wife. I don't know.


I don't think you are being unfair. I think your view of marriage is fine. Problems only arise when the other autonomous individual in your marriage sees things differently.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

If we see a marriage as a purely legal framework, there are certain expectations of performance that come to mind. Some are even expressly codified in the existing legal system (marital abandonment etc)

There are also implied contractual responsibilities based on widely accepted legal and social precedents...

Even religious based marriages recognize this and even define conditions and provide remedies (annulment etc).


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

john117 said:


> If we see a marriage as a purely legal framework, there are certain expectations of performance that come to mind. Some are even expressly codified in the existing legal system (marital abandonment etc)
> 
> There are also implied contractual responsibilities based on widely accepted legal and social precedents...
> 
> Even religious based marriages recognize this and even define conditions and provide remedies (annulment etc).


"Expectations," "implied," "widely accepted," all have the same issue as "concomitant" when it comes to negotiating sex in marriage. There is no universally accepted "rule." Sometimes, as John points out in his example of "marital abandonment," an extreme is approached and a judge can make a (still subjective) call. 

However, in most of the cases of contentious LD/HD match ups, you don't have extremes (at least not in the legal sense). That is not to say that the parties in those relationships are not guilty of not being "nice" to their partners, but I don't think calling folks out on violations of "expectations," widely accepted" norms and "concomitant obligations" is useful except to shore up one's own sense of what is right or wrong (in one's own marriage, or with marriage as an institution in society at large).


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

GettingIt said:


> The problem I see with this framing is that using terminology like "concomitant" preassumes a universal understanding of a condition--in this case, "marriage." The only truly universal understanding of marriage (in the US, which is where I am located) is the legal one. Any other meaning assigned is up to the individual to negotiate with themselves and with their partner. I know a lot of married couples. The only thing their marriages really have in common is the legal standing of their union.


Well let me be clear that I'm not talking about 'concomitant' in the legal sense although it is often used that way too. I'm talking about pure ethics. This concept is covered pretty early on in an ethics course. Ethics and law are related, but ethics describes what is moral rather than what is legal.





GettingIt said:


> No, but again, it us up to those individuals to negotiate how to respond to that need.
> 
> And again, you negotiate response to needs in relationships as autonomous individuals, not as participants in a contract that prescribes anything beyond legal status.


I agree, but that's not my point. The hurdle HD people face is the delegitimization of their needs by a spouse who thinks their perceptions define normative behavior for all of humanity. That is a tough nut to crack in an adult because it manifests itself as an unwillingness to compromise.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Duplicate Post thanks to TapaTalk....


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

> However, in most of the cases of contentious LD/HD match ups, you don't have extremes (at least not in the legal sense). That is not to say that the parties in those relationships are not guilty of not being "nice" to their partners, but I don't think calling folks out on violations of "expectations," widely accepted" norms and "concomitant obligations" is useful except to shore up one's own sense of what is right or wrong (in one's own marriage, or with marriage as an institution in society at large).


This is because things do not happen at a fast enough pace for the "violations" (use another word if needed) to be noticeable.

Think of buying a tool or appliance with a return if it does not work phrase on the receipt. If it does not work from day one back it goes.

In a marriage things are rarely this obvious. If the tool works as advertised on day one and a couple years later slows down and is barely functional (past return) then one is hosed. Just like in the marriage situation.

People don't often see what they don't want to see. They also don't see small changes. If LD's went from 3x a week of spirited action pre-wedding cake to 1x or 2x a month of corpse intercourse post cake in a year things would be a lot uglier. Instead, LD descends upon the bedroom like weight gain or hair loss over a period of years and somehow it becomes more mainstream and more "normal"


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

ocotillo said:


> Well let me be clear that I'm not talking about 'concomitant' in the legal sense although it is often used that way too. I'm talking about pure ethics. This concept is covered pretty early on in an ethics course. Ethics and law are related, but ethics describes what is moral rather than what is legal.


Oh no, I understood that. My point is that when you bring the language of morality and ethics into negotiations over sex, you have framed the situation in terms of right and wrong and introduce the specter of "blame." 

Not that there is anything wrong with feeling your marriage should be framed that way, but if your spouse isn't on board, you might get to be "right" but that doesn't mean you get laid.



ocotillo said:


> I agree, but that's not my point. The hurdle LD people face is the delegitimization of their needs by a spouse who thinks their perceptions define normative behavior for all of humanity. That is a tough nut to crack in an adult because it manifests itself as an unwillingness to compromise.


Agree. Communication, no matter how precise and earnest, is sometimes not enough. But it's all we've got, so onward!


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

john117 said:


> This is because things do not happen at a fast enough pace for the "violations" (use another word if needed) to be noticeable.
> 
> Think of buying a tool or appliance with a return if it does not work phrase on the receipt. If it does not work from day one back it goes.
> 
> ...


All true, but somehow understanding this doesn't make it any easier to accept. Hence, this forum.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

It send to me that there is an intrinsic intercourse-o-meter built in to all of us with a fixed value per time unit. If our value is close to our partner's all is well.

If there is a discrepancy it can be negotiated, fulfilled in alternate ways (hj, bj, etc) or "ignored" in which case frequency reverts to the minimum of the two values.

I'm not sure about the ignored part tho. My experience with the numerically astute Dr. Mrs. LD suggests that anything other than her idea of frequency is viewed as having great potential to, how to put it, encourage the partner to crank it up even higher, which is a no-no. 

Here's an example. One partner considers 1x a week to be sufficient while the other sees it an 1x a month. A negotiated average of 2x a month is obvious here. However, she will paint everything other than 1x a month as "what kind of deviant expletive you are all you want is 1x a day" and any possibility of negotiating flies out the window.

In other words, I am not so sure that the rejection is always accidental or unintentional...


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

GettingIt said:


> Not that there is anything wrong with feeling your marriage should be framed that way, but if your spouse isn't on board, you might get to be "right" but that doesn't mean you get laid.


Well again, I'm the one who would be happy with once a week or less and my wife is the one who for the past three years has wanted it a minimum of once a day.  There have certainly been decades of my life when this would have been more convenient, but this is a bonafide medical condition that some women experience at this stage of life. 

Nothing I've said is intended as an arguing point with a spouse. You don't get laid by arguing and even I know that. I'm just flabbergasted some times by what some defend as acceptable conduct. I want to bang my head against the wall and ask why they bothered getting married at all.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

In this case use some simple math. Assuming you can function as expected, why not do it?

Compare the implications of doing it vs not doing it. Forget everything else.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

This thread has degenerated into a word slinging match worthy of Bill Clintons statement "That depends on what your definition of "is" is".......

*I agree, but that's not my point. The hurdle LD people face is the delegitimization of their needs by a spouse who thinks their perceptions define normative behavior for all of humanity. That is a tough nut to crack in an adult because it manifests itself as an unwillingness to compromise. *


To have sex is a need...To do nothing is not a need, it is a decision...There is no biological need to do nothing.....Especially in those who were formerly HD, it is a decision that the needs of their partner are no longer important enough to elicit a response....

Don't lawyer talk me and tell me "that all depends on what my definition of "nothing" is..... 

Doing nothing is not "wrong" because feminism, and clergy, and lawyers have found the word "obligation" to be ugly when used in the context of marriage....Unless used in the context of providing a comfortable lifestyle for the refusing spouse...

It is PC to take and take and take, without giving back, because certain mindsets have developed in our culture which say "those unable or unwilling to fulfill their obligation to society, deserve as much as those who create, build, and provide....

Therefore the LD spouse who takes, and takes, and takes is no more bound to give back than the crack head or meth user who receives his/her monthly stipend from the government....Or the person who sold real estate to people who could not pay for it, and profited at the expense of others....

Decency, and it's sister, honor, no longer exist, our society no longer requires individuals to acknowledge or repay social contracts......

The LD spouse receives validation from his/her peers and from society for his/her failure, and feels being a taker is "right" or even "a right", and is supported in law if his/her mate decides it is an intolerable situation and leaves the relationship......

The giver often winds up paying a much higher price than the taker.......Divorce laws punish the leaving spouse for leaving, and rewards the denying spouse by requiring the maintaining of a lifestyle for the taker......

A few people get it...Gettingit, and Lord_John being two.....Their honesty, and inherent sense of decency let them see beyond their rights to "what is right"....Two phrases that are similar enough to allow many people to feign confusion as to which is correct....

I am sure many of you will see the justice in this...I am not one who does.....


Because of this, marriage as we know it will die out within our lifetime...being replaced by pre and post relationship contracts, fully enforceable in civil courts, with spousal duties being delineated, and free will being replaced by coupon books, chits, and proofs of compliance done in triplicate and filed with the appropriate civil authority....I can't wait....

the woodchuck


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Woodchuck said:


> This thread has degenerated into a word slinging match worthy of Bill Clintons statement "That depends on what your definition of "is" is".......
> 
> *I agree, but that's not my point. The hurdle LD people face is the delegitimization of their needs by a spouse who thinks their perceptions define normative behavior for all of humanity. That is a tough nut to crack in an adult because it manifests itself as an unwillingness to compromise. *
> 
> ...


Sir Woodchuck, thank you for your deep and very thought-provoking post! :iagree:

But I am sure, before the words above that I bolded really happening, lots of young American people would've already immigrated to other countries, where they could live as they believe the should, without the constraints of such civil-court contracts as you described. BTW two of my American friends has already moved to China and Vietnam(!).


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Woodchuck said:


> This thread has degenerated into a word slinging match worthy of Bill Clintons statement "That depends on what your definition of "is" is".......
> 
> *I agree, but that's not my point. The hurdle LD people face is the delegitimization of their needs by a spouse who thinks their perceptions define normative behavior for all of humanity. That is a tough nut to crack in an adult because it manifests itself as an unwillingness to compromise. *
> 
> ...


Well, to be fair, the quote you pulled out was from a side conversation between otocillo and me delving into an aspect of human nature that assumes a view a little more complex than the black and white one you paint (i.e. givers=good, takers=bad).

Still, I agree we've wandered far off topic. Funny how so many of these threads come around to exploring the gulf between the so called LD and the so called HD.

For my part, I'm fascinated by the play, but in no way want to delegitimize anyone else's feelings on the matter. Once you do that, you set up an adversarial tone, which tends to subvert folks' true natures and makes them more likely to sacrifice honesty in order to gain position against their "opponent". 

Once it's about power, it's no longer about the issue at hand.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Woodchuck said:


> This thread has degenerated into a word slinging match worthy of Bill Clintons statement "That depends on what your definition of "is" is".......
> 
> *I agree, but that's not my point. The hurdle LD people face...
> *


That was a typo, Woodchuck. It should have read, "The hurdle HD people face..." Thanks for pointing that out.

Yes sex is a need. It appears at two different levels in Maslow's hierarchy. It's not something we'll physically die without, but by the same token, being human is more than simply having a pulse and respiration.

I also want to add that bringing ethics into this is not 'lawyer talk.' It's an attempt to cut past personal perceptions to a simple question of morality.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

ocotillo said:


> That was a typo, Woodchuck. It should have read, "The hurdle HD people face..." Thanks for pointing that out.


You know, I was a little surprised at how you presented that, but then I figured that since the argument is also useable from the LD point of view, it really didn't matter whose point of view was highlighted. 




ocotillo said:


> Yes sex is a need. It appears at two different levels in Maslow's hierarchy. It's not something we'll physically die without, but by the same token, being human is more than simply having a pulse and respiration.


I'm not familiar ethics as a study. What other needs akin to sex (e.g. "won't die without") are there? How can they be quantified as "fulfilled" beyond the measure of the individual?



ocotillo said:


> I also want to add that bringing ethics into this is not 'lawyer talk.' It's an attempt to cut past personal perceptions to a simple question of morality.


There are lots of way to enjoy discussing this topic.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

GettingIt said:


> What other needs akin to sex (e.g. "won't die without") are there?


Needs that are subjective and psychological (As opposed to objective and physical) include things like friendship, family, self esteem, etc.




GettingIt said:


> How can they be quantified as "fulfilled" beyond the measure of the individual?


I don't think its possible. How much sleep does one need? It's difficult to nail down a precise block of time because it's going to vary depending upon the individual, how hard they've worked the previous day and how much stress they're under.

But we all know when we did not get enough sleep because it affects us in negative ways that are very noticeable. And that's pretty much true of all needs, since the term is defined and distinguished from wants as those things whose absence causes a clear negative outcome.

That, to me is one of the basic bones of contention in the HD/LD relationship. I've lost count of the number of times people have proclaimed that sex is simply the icing on the cake. --Something that's nice, but not really necessary.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

ocotillo said:


> Needs that are subjective and psychological (As opposed to objective and physical) include things like friendship, family, self esteem, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, and psychological needs, such as sex, are so easily set against other psychological needs, such as sleep, self-esteem, social affirmation, etc. It is exactly the subjective nature of this type of need that makes it nearly impossible to determine who are the "givers" and who are the "takers." 

And so we are left to negotiate and communicate and struggle.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

GettingIt said:


> And so we are left to negotiate and communicate and struggle.


Agree. But therein lies the problem. Very often (Not always) there is simply no negotiating with an LD spouse no matter how good and kind they are in other areas. This thread  comes to mind. The person never did get it.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

ocotillo said:


> Agree. But therein lies the problem. Very often (Not always) there is simply no negotiating with an LD spouse no matter how good and kind they are in other areas. This thread  comes to mind. The person never did get it.


Yeah. Ask Mr. Cletus, or Mr. IndyTMI.. they experienced this matter first-hand..


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> Agree. But therein lies the problem. Very often (Not always) there is simply no negotiating with an LD spouse no matter how good and kind they are in other areas. This thread  comes to mind. The person never did get it.


The HD people in that thread didn't get it. The OP was giving sex three times a week even though she wanted it less. She should have been commended for giving up more than she wanted to and for seeking help. Instead she got badgered for not desiring it more and basically being LD. She was given the "bait and switch" label even though she stated that it was an issue early on in the relationship BEFORE MARRIAGE. 

LDs have it hard on these forums, there are only a few of us around. If you are not swinging from the chandeliers when you post you disounted unless you validate all of the HD posts. Then maybe they will listen. However, if you try to list the reasons why you might do the dreaded thing of not desiring sex for your almighty righteous hubby, you will get the tar beaten out of you in the forums.

I think that LD people need a space where we can express our feelings without the constant invalidation from the frustrated HDs. We get enough of the arguments and badgering at home, we need a space to vent too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

techmom said:


> The HD people in that thread didn't get it. The OP was giving sex three times a week even though she wanted it less...


Many of the responses were harsh and I felt bad for her about that. Many others advised some *compromise *between three times a week and once a month. The idea was never agreed to. The OP eventually came back and stated that sexual frequency had been cut back to "not..so often anymore."




techmom said:


> LDs have it hard on these forums, there are only a few of us around. If you are not swinging from the chandeliers when you post you disounted unless you validate all of the HD posts. Then maybe they will listen. However, if you try to list the reasons why you might do the dreaded thing of not desiring sex for your almighty righteous hubby, you will get the tar beaten out of you in the forums.


The problem as I see it here on TAM is that HD people who've been repeatedly cut off for periods sometimes exceeding a year at a time end up discussing this with LD people whose spouses want sex every day. Fireworks always ensue because they're coming from two opposite extremes.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

techmom said:


> ..I think that LD people need a space where we can express our feelings without the constant invalidation from the frustrated HDs. We get enough of the arguments and badgering at home, we need a space to vent too.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree:

That is a logical request, I agree that an avenue for LD venting and expressing their contempt for HDs should be provided to, in the interest of equality. I advise fellow LD people, if you wish to vent, start a new thread, and at the beginning of the thread, write something to the effect of "warning, LD venting. Frustated HDs please do not participate". This way, HDs won't participate, and LDs could have the venting allowance they so desire. Win-win solution.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

I've been following this thread for a while and it does apply to my situation. Many of ya'l posted on my thread and I am still lost on this.

My wife was always LD and for many many years, I tried to earn points for sex with her. I worked hard in and out of the home and The harder I worked I always hoped that it would make me more attractive to my wife and eventually the sex would improve.Quantity as well as quality.

After 17 years, I became aggressive and sex went from 3 times a month to 3 times a week. Mt wife adapted to my increase in sex.

It's been three years now and it's coming to a close now. On some level, I guess she could be commended for giving up the sex even though she had zero desire for all these years. That's a sad way to see it.

I don't believe we should compromise on sex, although most of us do. 

Recently, I wanted to know what my drive really was. So for a 2 week period, we had sex 12 times. My wife kept up...However, the last night, although she didn't say no or stop or anything like that, I knew she wasn't enjoying it AT ALL. I asked her if she wanted me to stop. She said yes, so I did. That was a month ago and we have had sex maybe 2 times since then.

I think our sex life is over now. I know she never really wants sex and she has no desire for it with me or anybody else.

She wishes she had that desire for sex and she does try. I definately don't want her to be in agony over sex.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

ocotillo said:


> Agree. But therein lies the problem. Very often (Not always) there is simply no negotiating with an LD spouse no matter how good and kind they are in other areas. This thread  comes to mind. The person never did get it.


The problem is that the chance to help her understand was thrown away as usual. She said she had sex with her husband 2-3 times per week but that it was weighing on her. She followed up by saying that she did not understand HD people. This set off a firestorm of anger and recrimination. 

I am certain it is cathartic but what good does it do? She went away. Why did she bother to post? Because she knows something is wrong and that if she loves her husband she needs to find a way to be happy making him happy. She has heard all of the anger and call to duty before. 

That will not move a LD person. They go away feeling justified that they resist mean, angry unreasonable people. 

All of these threads go down this road. While understandable, a chance to help a man and woman and the many who read this forum is squandered. 

Do something different. If you think that you will get angry, hold off posting for a few days and let the thread play out. I think LD women who post are looking for advice from LD people who have successfully meeting their HD partners needs and who are happy and satisfied. 

They don't know how. They cannot learn in a few hrs or days. It is trail and error because every couple is different. They need time and support when they feel awkward or hopeless. It would be nice to be understanding and assume their intensions are benign. 

I think that it seems impossible to influence LD people in a positive direction on TAM but remember where you are. The success stories are not usually posted. The possible success stories are destroyed before they start. Moreover, the LD women who do post positive helpful advice are ignored or forgotten. . 

But I think there is hope. It takes breaking out of old patterns. Sometimes not, but it is worth trying to reframe things.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

techmom said:


> The HD people in that thread didn't get it. The OP was giving sex three times a week even though she wanted it less. She should have been commended for giving up more than she wanted to and for seeking help. Instead she got badgered for not desiring it more and basically being LD. She was given the "bait and switch" label even though she stated that it was an issue early on in the relationship BEFORE MARRIAGE.


I went back and read a dozen pages of that thread. The OP got beat up because she was obstinate and seeking affirmation, not understanding.

There was plenty of "not getting it" for both sides. What the LDs and the HDs don't get is that you just don't fix this problem in a way that's mutually satisfying for both partners with any success rate worth mentioning.

That's not to be defeatist or to imply that this problem is a necessary death sentence for your marriage, but the only reasonable approach to take is to assume that you will not fix it. Once it becomes an issue in a marriage, it will likely remain a little raw and painful until one of you leaves or dies. Anecdotes aside from some of the outliers on this forum, any hard core realist can verify this simple fact.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> The problem is that the chance to help her understand was thrown away as usual. She said she had sex with her husband 2-3 times per week but that it was weighing on her. She followed up by saying that she did not understand HD people. This set off a firestorm of anger and recrimination.
> 
> I am certain it is cathartic but what good does it do? She went away. Why did she bother to post? Because she knows something is wrong and that if she loves her husband she needs to find a way to be happy making him happy. She has heard all of the anger and call to duty before.
> 
> ...


I agree, Catherine. Part of this is just the nature of the internet. If you start a thread asking for gift idea for a very special anniversary, a few of the kinder souls might respond. But start a thread where people can argue a controversial subject and and it will go on for eighty pages. 

Interspersed with the ugliness were many kind and well thought out comments from you and at least half a dozen others. No explanation of why the LD partner should not be the _sole_ arbiter of sexual frequency was accepted.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Ocotillo I agree that the LD partner should not be the sole arbitrator of the sexual life of a couple. It may seem like the gentle advice is supportive of their gate keeping but I don't see it that way. 

I think that starting where the person is and supporting them, not what they are doing is important. That builds trust and then you can be a little more forceful. But first you have to get to know what will hook them in. What is inprtant to them, what is their character. 

For some people, just knowing and understanding is enough. There are many threads and post by women who realize how much they hurt their husbands and change happily. 

Making a person feel wrong will harden even the most reasonable person. They are not evil or selfish or bad. They are at worse ignorant and at best misinformed. 

I can say that from personal experience. There is no way that the average American woman can intuit what men are really like. Men are what our culture says they are, no? . You know as well as I what that is. (If you love in the US) 

In this cultural milieu, how can a woman understand the connection that men experience when having sex with a woman he loves? Where would the info and conformation originate? From her husband? I submit that many men don't understand it themselves. I'll bet many men are surprised to feel this way the first time it happens. 

They may not have the language to even express what they feel. I doubt if the average man ever get to talk to anyone about it. It may not seem manly more like being [email protected]@sy- wipped. 

Luckily there are good places like TAM. It's a very active forum. Perhaps it will be a catalyst for change. If some threads can play out in positive ways maybe someone will be inspired to write a book that is really helpful. Just do it or its your duty or it in your contract ain't going to get it. "You don't understand so let me explain" is a much better approach in my view. 

Something like the 5 love languages or his needs her needs but more focused. These are books 1 and 2. Now comes the time for book 3.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I meant - if you live in the US. But I'll leave the typo maybe it's more better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Catherine...the original Men are From Mars, Women are From Venus book by John Gray did a great job at explaining how a man feels love through sex, even though he may not be able to express it himself, like you suggested in your post above. The book itself has a lot of great insights, but specifically for understanding that aspect alone, it would be a great book for any wife who doesn't fully understand her husband's need for sex.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

*I think that LD people need a space where we can express our feelings without the constant invalidation from the frustrated HDs. We get enough of the arguments and badgering at home, we need a space to vent too.
*

Techmom

It is difficult for those who are HD to not take those who consistently deny sex, LD or otherwise to task. Your own words speak volumes....You describe HD's as frustrated, and LD's as feeling invalidated.......

It is the ease and contentment which the LD's enjoy while almost reveling in their LD state that causes this frustration among the denied HD partners......

It is difficult to feel compassion for someone who is so content, while you suffer....The fact that being a denier entails no discomfort whatsoever is all the more painful and frustrating ...

It is like being in the hospital, and in great pain....you press the button, to summon a nurse to give you morphine, and no one responds......

What if you could see on a video monitor that the nurse on duty was chatting with a friend, taking a long smoke break, drinking espresso in the lounge, or planning her vacation cruise online...Would it not be difficult to validate her actions?

Would you feel resentment? 

When the person who causes you pain, feels no pain, and in fact may live in total bliss, it is difficult to not resent them.......

In fact, even an LD person who was consistently denied sex on those rare occasions they craved it would eventually feel resentment toward the person who denied them.....

No matter your sexual condition, LD or HD, consistent rejection hurts.....

The woodchuck


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

ocotillo said:


> Many of the responses were harsh and I felt bad for her about that. Many others advised some *compromise *between three times a week and once a month. The idea was never agreed to. The OP eventually came back and stated that sexual frequency had been cut back to "not..so often anymore."


The problem is that there is no incentive for the LD to compromise beyond the intended once a month. If we go to twice a month, our friendly LD will see it as a steppingstone to once a week and from there welcome 50 Shades of Daily.

Likewise the HD or ND will see the twice a month compromise as not acceptable, but will use it as a steppingstone to once a week et al.

That is where the weekly migraines, sinus attacks, Friday arguments, etc begin and it's hello divorce time.

Honesty is an awesome concept....


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

Another issue I have is this, HDs see the LDs as living in bliss as being rejectors, like we love rejecting. I don't love seeing the pain in my hubby's eyes when I say no. I don't want to be the source of his pain, which is why I'm here. I want to make him happy, but it is at the expense of doing something that is violating to me while trying to act like I enjoy it.

It is like eating rocks while acting like you enjoy it. This is why sex is different, people place such emotional value to it, it is not like taking out the trash or going to work everyday. I don't know why people use such comparisons. It is like someone inserting a dildo in your rear when you don't feel like it, then you have to pretend you like it or the person you love is hurt. LD people hurt because they are made to feel abnormal on this forum. People say "take hormones, take meds, do therapy to increase your libido" . What about the person who was LD in the beginning, and the HD knew it but was so in love that he wanted to marry her anyway thinking he could change her. This is what happened to me. I could have said no to marriage too, but I was in love. 22 years later and unfortunately the mismatch rears its ugly head.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

"Violating"?

Dare I ask what monstrous difference in drive would cause a married partner to consider they're violated if they go over the magic number?

Perhaps I am too good in reading people, but I usually know what their response is before they respond if i begin a campaign of asking for something important. Did he have a reasonable confidence that he "could change" you based on just his experience, your signals, your behavior pre-cake, etc?


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## ginger-snap (Apr 10, 2013)

techmom said:


> What about the person who was LD in the beginning, and the HD knew it but was so in love that he wanted to marry her anyway thinking he could change her. This is what happened to me. I could have said no to marriage too, but I was in love. 22 years later and unfortunately the mismatch rears its ugly head.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He was, apparently, in love, too. People always hold out hope that their partner will understand them and change for them. Unrealistic, but not uncommon. You did it too, as you stated. 

I logically understand being LD and just not wanting to bother with it because it's too much work, or just doesn't float your boat, or whatever. But, I truly do not understand those that say they feel "violated" or who compare sex with a husband to rape, which is such a horrendous, violent act of power/control. I really, really don't understand how/why someone would marry someone who makes them feel that way and still call it love. Romantic love (vs. parental love or friendship love or love for family), for me, is such a deep connection on so many levels and I just want to be as close as possible to my husband emotionally and physically. I want to feel one with him, as cheesy and cliche as it sounds. When it's good, it's so amazing, overwhelming, and consuming.

I know it's a very intimate act but if I felt so victimized by it, then I don't think I could marry that person. That would be a horrible, horrible feeling to have to live with, for both people.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

techmom said:


> Another issue I have is this, HDs see the LDs as living in bliss as being rejectors, like we love rejecting. I don't love seeing the pain in my hubby's eyes when I say no. I don't want to be the source of his pain, which is why I'm here. I want to make him happy, but it is at the expense of doing something that is violating to me while trying to act like I enjoy it.
> 
> It is like eating rocks while acting like you enjoy it. This is why sex is different, people place such emotional value to it, it is not like taking out the trash or going to work everyday. I don't know why people use such comparisons. It is like someone inserting a dildo in your rear when you don't feel like it, then you have to pretend you like it or the person you love is hurt. LD people hurt because they are made to feel abnormal on this forum. People say "take hormones, take meds, do therapy to increase your libido" . What about the person who was LD in the beginning, and the HD knew it but was so in love that he wanted to marry her anyway thinking he could change her. This is what happened to me. I could have said no to marriage too, but I was in love. 22 years later and unfortunately the mismatch rears its ugly head.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think your using the term "VIOLATING" is the first time I have never heard that word used as a reason for not having sex.....

*I did love the sex in the beginning, when it was just 1-2 times a week. After we married and he wanted it everyday was a different story.*

You posted in another thread that you loved sex 1-2
times a week.....I cannot wrap my mind around the enormous disconnect that happened between 1-2 times a week, and violation....

Does this mean that you still love it 1-2 times a week? Or did his desire for more frequent sex turn the entire love feast into gravel and stones?

After true introspection, is that really the cause?

the woodchuck


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The end result of an LD / non-LD case is rarely good. While reading the literature of detachment, I realized I have done a superb job of implementing an 180 plan.

I now find myself not interested at all in my partner. Not sexually, and not in general. Not because of the sex issue, but sex is the catalyst, the missing ingredient. 

It is scary how fast you go from enjoying sex, even once a month, to just chucking 25 good years out the window. It amounts to an adult saying that he does not like the rules and he's about to pick up his ball and go home. Except in my case I did not make the rules.

So, we'll spend the next decade or two pretty much detached from each other, all because her internal intercourse-I-meter is stuck on 1x a month if that, and because she claims that her meter only has two settings, 1x a month and 1x a day...

That is what hurts, not the loss of emotional connection, or the pleasure of physical activity, but the persistence to maintain the self decided and self imposed status quo even if it causes irreparable damage to the marriage. And the ease of detachment.

I can't help but wonder how the marriage landscape would look like if every non-LD partner stuck with an LD implemented an 180 early on once things turned frigid rather than waiting years or decades in vain to get better.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

Woodchuck said:


> I think your using the term "VIOLATING" is the first time I have never heard that word used as a reason for not having sex.....
> 
> *I did love the sex in the beginning, when it was just 1-2 times a week. After we married and he wanted it everyday was a different story.*
> 
> ...


My hubby was always HD, in his other relationships he was accustomed to daily sex. Then he meets me, a virgin at 20. We fall in love, he wants to "take it slow" at first then build up the frequency. Sounds good at first, especially since this is my first love and all of the lovey dovey chemicals are flowing.

Little did I know that once you get into the grit and grime of marriage that the lovey dovey chemicals wear off and you are left with a husband who still wants to work up to daily sex. And I was just not feeling it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

techmom said:


> My hubby was always HD, in his other relationships he was accustomed to daily sex. Then he meets me, a virgin at 20. We fall in love, he wants to "take it slow" at first then build up the frequency. Sounds good at first, especially since this is my first love and all of the lovey dovey chemicals are flowing.
> 
> Little did I know that once you get into the grit and grime of marriage that the lovey dovey chemicals wear off and you are left with a husband who still wants to work up to daily sex. And I was just not feeling it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I get HD, I get trying to increase from 1-2 times a week to every day.......What part of the daily grit and grime turned it into gravel and stones? Kids, money problems, overwork, infidelity?....What changed the guy who was "the guy" for that 20 yo virgin, to a violator?.....And how long did it take?

the woodchuck


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

ocotillo said:


> But I would (again) counter that with the observation that marriage is inherently a sexual arrangement and in the formal language of morality, called ethics, there is a serious commitment that has been made.


I agree, and suspect majority of people know the common expectation of marriage is a sex life that is frequent and varied enough to be satisfying for both partners.

Look at it this way: people commonly restrict their pool of potential spouses based on race / ethnicity, religion, etc. The people possessing a particular value for each of these attributes represents a minority of the population. But, people limit their potential partners in this manner because they feel they can find a partner with the desired characteristics out there.

So, it seems that, if people desiring a low-sex / no-sex marriage were any sort of sizable minority, you would have them holding out for a like-minded partner. Instead, you have LD people heading into marriage with higher drive people hoping "things will work out", or the partner will get bored, or they will bully the partner into submission.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

techmom said:


> I want to make him happy, but it is at the expense of doing something that is violating to me while trying to act like I enjoy it.
> 
> This is why sex is different, people place such emotional value to it, it is not like taking out the trash or going to work everyday. I don't know why people use such comparisons. It is like someone inserting a dildo in your rear when you don't feel like it, then you have to pretend you like it or the person you love is hurt.


Ah, the heart of the LD argument comes to light. Being LD faced with the need of an HD spouse is the hardest thing in marriage. Of course, that leads to concluding it's okay for the LD person's needs to be met at the expense of the HD spouse, and for the LD person to control the sex life, because the pain felt by HD spouse for providing while being rejected will never equal the pain of the LD person having sex when not in the mood.

Look, I'm not saying it does not suck to be in the LD position. But, saying it is worse than what the HD person does through does nothing but expose your lack of empathy. And, that position does not even pass the common-sense "smell" test.

I don't know what it's like to be an LD person set upon in that manner. But I know how it feels to be the HD facing an LD with the mindset described above, and it hurts bad. The only way it didn't hurt bad is when I detached for self-preservation, then I caught crap for checking out - a true no-win situation.

Seriously, let's say you are having sex 3 times a month. So, there is sex 1 of 10 days. Are you seriously suggesting that the discomfort the LD experiences for an hour (at most) 10% of the days is worse than that experienced by the HD 90% of the time?

What makes going to work every day painful is not the work itself, it is that so much daily effort goes toward supporting someone who isn't moved to give back. I, for instance, put much effort into meeting my ex's need for material comfort. I did the math and saw if she had contributed as much as I had to family expenses I might have been able to retire at least five (and probably closer to 10) years sooner than what would be otherwise possible. Are you seriously suggesting giving up such a large chunk of a finite life is a small sacrifice compared to being a good sexual partner a couple times a week?

The point is, arguments about who suffers more won't get anywhere. I just made a couple of arguments that hold as much water as any LD perspective argument. The only way to make any headway is to agree that both sides are hurt equally when their needs are not met, and (where compromise cannot be had) go for a straight mid-point of the two sides. So, if one spouse wants it once a month, and the other daily, go for three times per week as fair.

Of course, the problem is that many people don't get that a good compromise leaves both sides somewhat unhappy. One spouse or the other (or sometimes both) get so entrenched in their own position they refuse to split it "down the middle". to everyone's detriment.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

> Seriously, let's say you are having sex 3 times a month. So, there is sex 1 of 10 days. Are you seriously suggesting that the discomfort the LD experiences for an hour (at most) 10% of the days is worse than that experienced by the HD 90% of the time?


from personal experience at least, the LD discomfort arises not from having to put up once more a month for an hour, but from the fear that once there, that is the steppingstone for daily sex if left 'unchecked'. So, not only there is no incentive to compromise, but there is incentive to NOT compromise at all.

And, again, based on personal experience, that is the reason agreed upon SLA's fail, because the fear of increasing frequency and deeper yet, 'taken advantage of', trumps any rational expectations of 'normal' sex.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

> The point is, arguments about who suffers more won't get anywhere. I just made a couple of arguments that hold as much water as any LD perspective argument. The only way to make any headway is to agree that both sides are hurt equally when their needs are not met, and (where compromise cannot be had) go for a straight mid-point of the two sides. So, if one spouse wants it once a month, and the other daily, go for three times per week as fair.


The math is not quite this simple. once a month is 12 times a year. Once a day is 360. The midpoint is about every other day, which may sound good to the HD, but is an absolute no-go for most LD's. 

Perhaps I could write a paper in a journal or something, but the mid-point seems workable only if both frequencies are in the same ballpark.

Let's say I want to buy a BMW 5 and offer $20k, with the car's price at $60k. Midpoint is between 20k and 60k is 40k, which is great for me, but absolutely a no-go for the dealer. Same here, much to the delight (or not) of the partners :scratchhead:

Compromise on SLA's is acceptable only if the difference in terms is manageable.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

techmom--

You kind of remind me of my wife. My wife was a virgin at 25 and at the time I never considered my self HD. My attitude was the more the better. Being that my wife was a friend first, sex wasn't on my to do list. Over time, I was hopeful, if I stayed around long enough to prove that I wasn't after trying to be the one she looses her virginity to. 

After a year, sex still wasn't really happening. Out of the bond we had and friendship, I still stayed. I just tried to talk myself into thinking it didn't matter. 21 years later and a 9 year old daughter, As much as I try the be the sensitive understanding man, sex is something my wife just endures. When it was 3 times a month, that was fine. When I increased it to 3 times a week, I think it was extremely hard for her. When we had sex 12 times in 2 weeks...OMG...She was forced to communicate her feelings on sex. She never told me how she really felt about sex until then. I am glad the truth finally came out. as much as it hurts.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

But that was a unilateral decision, and the outcome was predetermined. I don't think either of you was surprised by the outcome.

Wearing my lab coat and protective eyewear I would also ask what purpose did the marathon session serve other than communicate in English what both of you knew already?

Did you ever try a less frequent but more satisfying - for her - experience say once a week (not a stretch from 3x a month) and build from there? 

I tried that a long time ago only to find out that mind blowing (for us) experiences every once in a blue moon could not be replicated more frequently due to her underlaying fear of eventual frequency increase, which was a no-no.

This fear increases frigidity and that's all she wrote. It's the inverse of the immortal teenager syndrome. Teenagers think nothing will ever happen to them so they engage in behaviors that are risky without EVER considering the undesirable result. It simply never figures into their mental model. The inverse of this is that no possible outcome exists EXCEPT the undesirable one, hence refusal is the only response.

(Now let me polish this idea before submitting it for publication, I'm sure The Journal Of Cognitive Psychology would love it )


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

john117 said:


> Wearing my lab coat and protective eyewear I would also ask what purpose did the marathon session serve other than communicate in English what both of you knew already?
> 
> This is the reason for a forum. People can tell me when I do something stupid.... I guess I wanted to prove a point. I wanted to see what I was capable of doing (ego)
> 
> ...


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

Trickster said:


> techmom--
> 
> You kind of remind me of my wife. My wife was a virgin at 25 and at the time I never considered my self HD. My attitude was the more the better. Being that my wife was a friend first, sex wasn't on my to do list. Over time, I was hopeful, if I stayed around long enough to prove that I wasn't after trying to be the one she looses her virginity to.
> 
> After a year, sex still wasn't really happening. Out of the bond we had and friendship, I still stayed. I just tried to talk myself into thinking it didn't matter. 21 years later and a 9 year old daughter, As much as I try the be the sensitive understanding man, sex is something my wife just endures. When it was 3 times a month, that was fine. When I increased it to 3 times a week, I think it was extremely hard for her. When we had sex 12 times in 2 weeks...OMG...She was forced to communicate her feelings on sex. She never told me how she really felt about sex until then. I am glad the truth finally came out. as much as it hurts.


Hello Trickster, glad you responded. I always wondered about what you were trying to accomplish when you increased the frequency knowing that your wife didn't like sex all. This is what I wonder about my SO too, and in many ways your wife sounds like me. My hubby tried numerous times to increase the frequency and I gave in because I was tired of the arguments. It felt horrible for me and I only endured it. We argued afterwards becuase then it was like, "gee, you really didn't like that did you." Then, I thought, well no shyt Sherlock! 

It's like HD people want to keep feeding the baby that is full, all you get is the baby to spit it back up. I wanted my husband to wait for me to feel desire, not to push his on me. Then he would get mad when I didn't respond like he wanted me to. That is the gulf that is between us, and it hurts as much for the LD as it does for the HD. We have to endure the arguments for all of the times when we don't have sex when you want to. We are called names, threatened divorce and all kinds of things. Doesn't really boost my libido. I work like he does, we have equal share of household duties. If he divorced me he would be doing the same duties. So he can't act like I get more out of this marriage than he does.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Two vs four times a week arguments are hardly worthy of a thread though. The majority of the issues some of us are facing are an order of magnitude or two apart and with nasty long term consequences.

Try reconciling a difference of once or twice a week of decent sex vs once a quarter or once a month of corpse sex and you will see why it is hard to find any sympathy for withholding of any magnitude, just like there is no sympathy for the occasional "I AM A SENIOR MANAGER AND I MAKE SUCH AND SUCH THEREFORE I DESERVE TWICE A DAY" type clown that graces TAM.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

techmom said:


> Hello Trickster, glad you responded. I always wondered about what you were trying to accomplish when you increased the frequency knowing that your wife didn't like sex all. This is what I wonder about my SO too, and in many ways your wife sounds like me. My hubby tried numerous times to increase the frequency and I gave in because I was tired of the arguments. It felt horrible for me and I only endured it. We argued afterwards becuase then it was like, "gee, you really didn't like that did you." Then, I thought, well no shyt Sherlock!
> 
> 
> *My wife and I would argue a little after sex because I knew she didn't enjoy it. Eve with oral, I tried so many different techniques and anything more than 5 minutes of oral, she would say "enough already, let get on with it". *
> ...


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

I am trying to come to term with a wife who after 21 years has NEVER enjoyed sex. She WANTED to enjoy it, but her mind would never allow that. I ALWAYS was hoping that eventually she would enjoy it. After all she was a virgin and I thought it would take time. I was always Mr. Romantic, I Always worked 6 days a week, I Always made more money. I worked enough so my wife could quit her job every 3-4 months. I thought ( hoped) that would make me more desirable. I realize that was a mistake to think that way. No matter how often I would work all day come home to cook dinner and do dinner dishes never made me more desirable to my wife.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

When we married my wife was all for sex every day....This was kept up for over a decade. 

As my career changed from a blue collar job, to an engineering position the demands on my time increased, and sex decreased to 3-4 times a week...

Again this carried on for years.....After menopause, there was a decrease that happened gradually but inexorably to once a week or every 2 weeks.

I noticed this change, and did my best to get the numbers back up.....This resulted in the final stage...Sex avoidance. 

The day would begin with a mention of poor rest, a scratchy throat, IBS flaring up...The list was endless....

All directed at making it clear that sex would be a terrible imposition right then, perhaps in a day or two...or three...or twelve or thirty.....

Never really NO, just, if you had any consideration at all, you would not press the issue today, or tomorrow or next week or next month......

Another symptom was the totally outrageous excuses, if I was a bit more demanding......

The straw that killed the camel was "we won't be able to have sex because I have a gyno appointment, and don't want to be all swollen......

The appointment was 8 days away.....I finally threw the bullsh!t card and admitted there was no longer a sexual connection in our marriage........

Then came the killer....the comment that "You don't deserve sex because you treated me badly, but if you treat me well enough for long enough, we MIGHT have sex"

I knew all was lost.....

That was the decline and fall of the woodchucks love life....

the woodchuck


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Trickster said:


> I am trying to come to term with a wife who after 21 years has NEVER enjoyed sex. She WANTED to enjoy it, but her mind would never allow it.


And that is the rest of the story. Inhibitions, culture, the works. It's like offering a steak to a vegetarian


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

john117 said:


> The math is not quite this simple. once a month is 12 times a year. Once a day is 360. The midpoint is about every other day, which may sound good to the HD, but is an absolute no-go for most LD's.
> 
> Perhaps I could write a paper in a journal or something, but the mid-point seems workable only if both frequencies are in the same ballpark.
> 
> ...


John I know your situation is serious but your posts are so incredibly funny that I can't help laughing.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Woodchuck said:


> Another symptom was the totally outrageous excuses, if I was a bit more demanding......
> 
> The straw that killed the camel was "we won't be able to have sex because I have a gyno appointment, and don't want to be all swollen......


The above are all from the Acme LD Field Operations Manual. 

It crushed my heart to see my poor wife, ordinarily healthy as a horse, be bedridden Friday after Friday with migraines, sinus attacks, the occasional self-resolving URI, etc. 

Once I decided to not bother with sex since earlier this year she was cured of all her ailments.

On occasion, when a disease would not hit, she'd start with a Friday fight about the girls' grades, clothes, my family (nearly all deceased), or some other sure fire topic. Gov. Romney was very helpful a while back as a topic 



> Then came the killer....the comment that "You don't deserve sex because you treated me badly, but if you treat me well enough for long enough, we MIGHT have sex"


My response at that point of a similarily worded situation was that it is simply not worth my effort to put in my best behavior 100% of the time in order to get sex 5% of the time. The payoff ain't there.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> John I know your situation is serious but your posts are so incredibly funny that I can't help laughing.


A funny psychologist (*) what is this, Cheers?

















* not that kind of psychologist  darn memory...


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

john117 said:


> The above are all from the Acme LD Field Operations Manual.
> 
> It crushed my heart to see my poor wife, ordinarily healthy as a horse, be bedridden Friday after Friday with migraines, sinus attacks, the occasional self-resolving URI, etc.
> 
> ...




My wife says that at my age, 66 last November that I should have no interest in sex, that we are old....

The sad fact is, I could still quite happily have sex twice a day, just like old times......

In fact recently, when the planets aligned just right, we had sex 3 times in 24 hours....

I guess I am just not falling apart on schedule...I have never, had even a hint of the erectile dysfunction so many men suffer from.....

I have always been able to become erect at the drop of a hat, and orgasm in as little or much time as the situation demanded....but I can't believe I am that much of a sexual oddity....

The sad thing is, I know I can't have much longer as a sexual being, and the last years are being wasted.....

My looking at porn, puts her off, so I abstain, hoping that my abstinence will result in somewhat more frequent intercourse....

How do you think that's working out for me?

She also looks down on any suggestion that I masturbate....Seems the only acceptable recourse is nothing....Does that make me LD?

It seems in my case virtue is its own, and only reward.....

the woodchuck


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

john117 said:


> The math is not quite this simple. once a month is 12 times a year. Once a day is 360. The midpoint is about every other day, which may sound good to the HD, but is an absolute no-go for most LD's.
> 
> Perhaps I could write a paper in a journal or something, but the mid-point seems workable only if both frequencies are in the same ballpark.
> 
> ...


I agree that a mid-point is a no-go for most typical LDers. I am saying the mid-point between the two drives is where the sex life _should_ exist. In a marriage where each partner's wants and needs are equally valuable, the mid-point is, by definition, fair to both sides.

What happens in reality is that an ungenerous LD person does not want that midpoint. So, he or she acts as if his or her wants and needs matter more than those of the HD spouse. Whether the LD really believes his or her perspective is more important, or whether that is just the path of least resistance, is debatable (and irrelevant). That a spouse would act like he or she is more important is as troubling as the lack of sex itself.

ETA: I'm not too sure about the BMW analogy. The problem with offering $40k for that car is it costs more than that to produce. The economics of that situation are such that the company would go broke after selling that car for that price for a long enough period of time. There are much resources invested in the development and manufacture of that car.

By contrast, the resources consumed by a good sex life are truly minimal. 1% of a week (about an hour and 40 minutes) and minimum money is enough time to for sex 3x a week, tending to birth control, etc.

The bottom line is a good sex life is low-cost enough to be had by everyone (save those with serious physical disabilities) willing to make the effort to make it happen. Whereas, most people will never have that BMW because of the inability to devote that much resources to a car.


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

DTO said:


> What happens in reality is that an ungenerous LD person does not want that midpoint. So, he or she acts as if his or her wants and needs matter more than those of the HD spouse. Whether the LD really believes his or her perspective is more important, or whether that is just the path of least resistance, is debatable (and irrelevant). That a spouse would act like he or she is more important is as troubling as the lack of sex itself.


That is exactly with the few LD'ers on TAM have said. Why should I let my body be invaded? Why should I do something that has no pleasure for me? I remember LadyoftheLake and Marieja's posts about feeling very clinical and cold about sex. 

If the LD spouse cannot discover how they become aroused, there is little hope for a vibrant sex life. I do not know what the answer is. If your spouse has any empathy, you can only try to explain that sex is how you feel loved, and hope that they make some effort towards meeting your needs.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Unlike the Beemer there is a an emotional cost associated with sex to the LD so the total cost is not time & materials 

Think of the cost required to, ehem, outsource an encounter. Let's peg it at a reasonable $200... That would be the "market value" of the "service". If an LD is determined to not be "violated" it might as well be $20,000, or the equivalent in brownie points. And this is how the true market value is determined; you can't negotiate because you can't arrive at a mutually agreed upon price, or value, or worth, of the service, whereas it is much easier to do so with an object. To a non LD sex is a lot more valuable than to the LD.

If both partners agree and enjoy sex it is truly an inexpensive and fulfilling experience, but if negotiations are needed things can get ugly quickly.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

I've seen many posts on this thread and others talk about the LD understanding the HD perspective, and vice versa. My question is whether such an understanding is necessary and even whether it is possible.

If I am relatively HD and my spouse is LD, can I really empathize with her sentiment - put myself in her shoes? Do I even have to, when I can just take her at her word and offer a compromise that is fair to both of us?

Another wrinkle - if the LD spouse is sex-averse and not just sex-indifferent, IMO that is a learned negative response to sex. In other words, if I actually fear and avoid sex, I'm probably not that way naturally. Something probably happened in my past that triggered such a fear.

So, if I have a sex-averse spouse, do I really want to truly empathize with her? Would that not imply I also have had some trauma in my life? Would it not be better that I remain well-grounded and sympathetic yet pushing for a healthy marriage?


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

john117 said:


> Unlike the Beemer there is a an emotional cost associated with sex to the LD so the total cost is not time & materials
> 
> Think of the cost required to, ehem, outsource an encounter. Let's peg it at a reasonable $200... That would be the "market value" of the "service". If an LD is determined to not be "violated" it might as well be $20,000, or the equivalent in brownie points. And this is how the true market value is determined; you can't negotiate because you can't arrive at a mutually agreed upon price, or value, or worth, of the service, whereas it is much easier to do so with an object. To a non LD sex is a lot more valuable than to the LD.
> 
> If both partners agree and enjoy sex it is truly an inexpensive and fulfilling experience, but if negotiations are needed things can get ugly quickly.


Yup. I totally agree, and realized I did not flesh out my thoughts well enough when I wrote this.

I would argue sex between two well-adjusted people in a relationship does not result in feelings of violation, loathing, etc. So, if my SO has sex with me and it brings out those feelings, she probably has some serious baggage. That I really can't do anything about, and she has to want to get better on her own.

The other possibility is she has a deep-seated dislike for me. If that is the case, she should not want to be in a relationship with me. If she still wants to maintain relationship status with me while feeling that level of resentment and dislike, that seems to be another whole set of issues to address on her end.

So, I guess I would agree if my spouse loathed sex with me and was unable to participate without all the negative emotions, I should let her go unless she chose to investigate what in her past is triggering those reactions. If she wanted to remain in a relationship despite feeling that way, I should walk unless she's willing to explore why she feels that way about sex and why she would want an inherently sexual relationship with someone with whom she found sex repulsive.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

techmom said:


> My hubby was always HD, in his other relationships he was accustomed to daily sex. Then he meets me, a virgin at 20. We fall in love, he wants to "take it slow" at first then build up the frequency. Sounds good at first, especially since this is my first love and all of the lovey dovey chemicals are flowing.
> 
> Little did I know that once you get into the grit and grime of marriage that the lovey dovey chemicals wear off and you are left with a husband who still wants to work up to daily sex. And I was just not feeling it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Techmom...

Do you like affection like hugs and kissing throughout the day? When your husband comes home from work, do you give him a big kiss? Do yall go out on dates?

My wife was a virgin at 25 and I took it so so slow with her. I just don't know why she wasn't "feeling it" From what she just told me recently, she is attracted to be. Even when I don't criticize and I do house work, cook dinner, write sext texts early in the day... nothing works. I used to write love notes on the bathroom mirror.... I can only imagine now what she thought each time I would sext her or leave a note in her lunch. She was probably thinking..."OMG... we just had sex 3 nights ago and he wants it again"!


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## TeaLeaves4 (Feb 19, 2010)

Woodchuck said:


> You are absolutely right, but women of a certain mindset are more than willing to see and condemn it as transactional and making the woman into a prostitute, so they can dodge any implication of being obligated in any way to have sex with a man........Convoluted and wrong headed as it may be.....
> 
> the woodchuck


With all due respect, Chuck, that's a load of crap. . 

I do my H whenever and wherever he wants cuz I like him. A lot. No other reason. But he does do dishes.

Nobody, however, is obligated. The minute it's an obligation, it's not happening for me.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

TeaLeaves4 said:


> Nobody, however, is obligated. The minute it's an obligation, it's not happening for me.


Obviously people have sex because they're in the mood at the moment, not because of a sense of obligation. Obligation is not a 'turn on' for anybody. 

I'm curious though if anyone (Not necessarily you, TeaLeaves) truly believes that a commitment of marriage would not be forsaken if they were to unilaterally decide that sex is neither important nor necessary and cut their spouse off for (Let's say) two years straight?


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

TeaLeaves4 said:


> With all due respect, Chuck, that's a load of crap. .
> 
> I do my H whenever and wherever he wants cuz I like him. A lot. No other reason. But he does do dishes.
> 
> Nobody, however, is obligated. The minute it's an obligation, it's not happening for me.


Some women just don't get it....Marriage is a sexual covenant with the expectation that that couple will engage in sex.....The contract is...Till death do we part, but the sex is just till she says ....Naaa, I don't wanna.....Bullsh!t....

If that is the case, Naaa I don't wanna, ends the marriage.....Right????

the woodchuck


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

DTO said:


> I agree that a mid-point is a no-go for most typical LDers. I am saying the mid-point between the two drives is where the sex life _should_ exist. In a marriage where each partner's wants and needs are equally valuable, the mid-point is, by definition, fair to both sides.
> 
> What happens in reality is that an ungenerous LD person does not want that midpoint. So, he or she acts as if his or her wants and needs matter more than those of the HD spouse. Whether the LD really believes his or her perspective is more important, or whether that is just the path of least resistance, is debatable (and irrelevant). That a spouse would act like he or she is more important is as troubling as the lack of sex itself.
> 
> ...


Good point. That's why I advocate scheduled sex, with real commitment from both sides to honor the schedule. Our SLA is weekend sex, I am ok with it, she seemed ok with it, if she demands more then it has to be on holidays, because on workdays I am usually so concentrated on work, so having my mind somewhere else will not be conducive for good sex performance. Let's say, figuratively speaking I, we, cannot afford daily sex, just like the people in your example cannot afford to buy BMWs.

That's how my body, John Lord Ver. B-3 is built. My wife marries John Lord ver B3, thus she has to learn to drive Ver. B-3 . While scheduled sex sounds dull, it sure does works for us.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

john_lord_b3 said:


> Good point. That's why I advocate scheduled sex, with real commitment from both sides to honor the schedule. Our SLA is weekend sex, I am ok with it, she seemed ok with it, if she demands more then it has to be on holidays, because on workdays I am usually so concentrated on work, so having my mind somewhere else will not be conducive for good sex performance. Let's say, figuratively speaking I, we, cannot afford daily sex, just like the people in your example cannot afford to buy BMWs.
> 
> That's how my body, John Lord Ver. B-3 is built. My wife marries John Lord ver B3, thus she has to learn to drive Ver. B-3 . While scheduled sex sounds dull, it sure does works for us.


This is true. Also, some people who buy the toyota sometimes want to "pimp the ride" to make it perform like a BMW. They end up pushing the toyota beyond its capability until it breaks down. Then it's "no more rides". 

If you want a BMW, buy one.

If you want a HD partner, marry one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Batman4691 (Jun 24, 2013)

techmom said:


> This is true. Also, some people who buy the toyota sometimes want to "pimp the ride" to make it perform like a BMW. They end up pushing the toyota beyond its capability until it breaks down. Then it's "no more rides".
> 
> If you want a BMW, buy one.
> 
> ...


I just love this quote from some people. It shows just how naïve they truly are.

Techmom, 
I did marry an HD partner, and after 28 years of marriage she has slowly changed to an extreme LD partner. 

Then some advice I have received from people like you is if I am not happy with my current sexual status that I should divorce her and find another HD partner. 

Oh, sure. That sounds just great. I am divorcing my wife of 28 years, whom I've had 5 children with, because I want more sex. 

Now who sounds like the jerk in that scenario?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Except that a BMW, properly maintained, will perform the same way before buying (marriage) and after buying... And it's capabilities are well understood by the buyer and seller.

This would be more like buying a tricked out Ricer that worked well during the (cough) test drives but becomes a regular econobox even with moderate or normal use...


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Woodchuck said:


> Some women just don't get it....Marriage is a sexual covenant with the expectation that that couple will engage in sex.....The contract is...Till death do we part, but the sex is just till she says ....Naaa, I don't wanna.....Bullsh!t....
> 
> If that is the case, Naaa I don't wanna, ends the marriage.....Right????
> 
> the woodchuck


Yes sir, I understand this. The commitment to give mutual satisfactory sex life should be honored, and the unacceptability of sexless life, should be non-negotiable. It's the matter of honoring the commitment one has made in a marriage (as you stated).

Off course there are certain factors to be considered, such as exhaustion, tight schedules, distance, etc which directly affects frequency, scheduling and techniques. Some couples could have sex in demand anytime in any day of the week. Some could manage to have sex maybe once a week. Some couple could have sex more frequently, but choices of techniques are limited (due to physical limitations). This is all depending on many factor, to each their own, and all matters pertaining to frequency, schedule and choices of technique should be negotiable. 

Nobody should be forced to have sex against his/her will, but if a reasonably physically healthy spouse _consistently rejecting_ his/her spouse's request, and this sexlessness became a chronic rejection syndrome lasting months, even years, then _where is the commitment to make your spouse happy?_ 

If that happens, we're no longer talking about HD vs LD here, it's the matter of selfishness.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Rejection does not have to be 'over months' to be problematic. There is a reason some legal views consider the idea of under 1x a month as marital abandonment or close enough...

I can tell you that the emotional disconnect / reconnect cycle is far worse than the disconnect and be done with it.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

john117 said:


> Rejection does not have to be 'over months' to be problematic. There is a reason some legal views consider the idea of under 1x a month as *marital abandonment* or close enough...
> 
> I can tell you that the emotional disconnect / reconnect cycle is far worse than the disconnect and be done with it.


I'd love to hear more about the definition of marital abandonment in your country's legal code.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Depending on which state you live, the definitions can be quite specific in terms of SLA's . The usual metric is once a year but I've seen more often numbers. Grab a cup of tea and read this gem of legal wisdom:

Sexual Relations and Abandonment. New York Divorce and Family Law, the definitive site about divorce, child support and custody. (not the most interesting material :sleeping

Read up on terms like constructive abandonment and things snowball from there...


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Many thanks! Perfect reading for the weekend!


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Please note the date on that article. The laws in NY have changed and it is now a no fault divorce state.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

In general, at fault divorces are going the way of at fault car accidents. Just another reason for the LD status quo to preserve itself I guess. 

(Begin commentary)

I live in a wealthy conservative county in the Midwest and divorce laws be darned, thanks to our (female headed) family judicial system if you are female, unless you have a reality show named after you you get custody regardless so...


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## AlphaProvider (Jul 8, 2013)

john_lord_b3 said:


> Yes sir, I understand this. The commitment to give mutual satisfactory sex life should be honored, and the unacceptability of sexless life, should be non-negotiable. It's the matter of honoring the commitment one has made in a marriage (as you stated).
> 
> Off course there are certain factors to be considered, such as exhaustion, tight schedules, distance, etc which directly affects frequency, scheduling and techniques. Some couples could have sex in demand anytime in any day of the week. Some could manage to have sex maybe once a week. Some couple could have sex more frequently, but choices of techniques are limited (due to physical limitations). This is all depending on many factor, to each their own, and all matters pertaining to frequency, schedule and choices of technique should be negotiable.
> 
> ...


It's not even a matter of selfishness anymore. It's about being "used", and getting nothing for it. It's bad... Real bad...


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