# you guys call it "the switch"but is some of it "just life



## goodwife4 (Jan 7, 2013)

äfter reading some of the respenses on here particularly about women who have high sex drive when first with you then it fades away.... you call this the switch ...

but my question is isnt some of this just life !??

my hubby and i never had sex before marriage, due to beliefs, we saw each other naked and both of us had been in relationships before where we had had sex, he was married 5 years before.

so why is it that we ( usually woman ) are expected to keep up the every night sex routine 

.... plus have babies, which keep us awake and we are so tired we feel like dying !
have a career
keep the house clean
be an amazing cook
do all the finances...
the list goes on ......
plus have the energy, desire for sex every night still ?

i'm just wondering ?:scratchhead:

my hubby told me he wasnt happy with our sex life from an early point becasue i didnt make moves 50% of the time.... even though i had fun, enjoyed sex and we did it frequently 2 to 3 times a week

:scratchhead: we had 3 children all under 4 and the first had problems where he never slept for more than 1 hour.... I was exhausted!!!
i didnt have time to do anything for myself let alone be a super woman.

also i had a lot of internal injuries after first bub and it was very very painful to do it but we did it anyway , i did it to please him

so is it the switch

or life


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

goodwife4 said:


> .. i had fun, enjoyed sex and we did it frequently 2 to 3 times a week..


So does it means that, right now you are no longer doing sex 2 to 3 times a week?

Because, I think 3 times a week is already very normal, and that is not "the switch"

From what I know, Bait and Switch (TM) usually means, before marriage = giving sex. After marriage = no sex. 

If still having 3 times a week sex, it is not Bait and Switch (TM).

Especially if the sex are mutually satisfying. It is not Bait and Switch, it is called Normal Life


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

"Life getting in the way": Honey, I know our sex life has been off a bit since we've been so busy. What can we do to make things less busy so we can resume what we had before?

"Switch": Honey, I know our sex life has been off a bit since we've been so busy. Your needs aren't important enough to change life enough to restore what we once had so please get used to it.


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## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

Very few spouses are reasonably expecting sex every night. Very few, if any, spouses are expecting sex when their spouse has medical problems. These sound like strawman arguments to me.

But yes, you have to work at it. If you do, you can maintain a mutually satisfactory frequency and level of enjoyment.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

GW, your situation isn't a "bait & switch" thing. Tbh, I think he used it as an EXCUSE for what he did. He was selfish and he tried to blame you for his cheating. You know this. You are trying to understand the "whys" behind his cheating. He requested more from you..you gave it. And he STILL stepped out on you. It isn't your fault, GW.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> GW, your situation isn't a "bait & switch" thing. Tbh, I think he used it as an EXCUSE for what he did. He was selfish and he tried to blame you for his cheating. You know this. You are trying to understand the "whys" behind his cheating. He requested more from you..you gave it. And he STILL stepped out on you. It isn't your fault, GW.


 sorry to hear about this


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

goodwife4 said:


> äfter reading some of the respenses on here particularly about women who have high sex drive when first with you then it fades away.... you call this the switch ...
> 
> but my question is isnt some of this just life !??
> 
> ...


Most of the guys here aren't asking for daily sex. Most would LOVE the 2-3 times a week you have.

So I'm not sure why you're applying a specific issue you have with your husband to a general consensus on TAM that frankly does not exist.


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## dubbizle (Jan 15, 2012)

From what I read on a few boards the list you have is now shared by the man and woman or the man is even doing more BUT that does not change how much sex is happening.

If two people are going at it like rabbits when the date why in the world would one partner think their partner is going to want lesss when they are married,so yes it is a switch because if the Low sex person stated right off they are not into sex that much they might lose their partner so they play a role until they are married and feel their partner has to stay with them.

There are many post where the low sex partner changes right after the wedding.


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## uncool (Dec 12, 2010)

you have to have give and take to make it successful. If all he's doing is taking then you're not going to want to give. The question is how can you communicate to him to be the man you desire. 
Sex to a man is more than just getting off. (If that's all it was we'd all just stay single and masturbate... but it's not) Sex to a man means that he feels his wife accepts and respects him as a man on a much higher emotional and mental level. I'm cutting him some slack because I believe right now he's guessing what he has to do to make you want sex more. 

To prove my point... do a little test. When he comes home from work one night give him some good sex out of the blue and tell him you love him WHILE you're doing it. Now see if in the next few hours or days he doesn't try to give back to you somehow to provide for your needs. (p.s....he needs to know what your needs are). If he doesn't do this then he's a bum and he needs some educating.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Maricha75 said:


> GW, your situation isn't a "bait & switch" thing. Tbh, I think he used it as an EXCUSE for what he did. He was selfish and he tried to blame you for his cheating. You know this. You are trying to understand the "whys" behind his cheating. He requested more from you..you gave it. And he STILL stepped out on you. It isn't your fault, GW.


I'm glad you added this Maricha. I was about to be reeled in as a husband who expressed similar sentiments to what the OP's husband said.

But here's the most important part - I didn't cheat. I won't cheat. F him if he tries to use it as an excuse. Fix your damn marriage or move on, don't cheat on your spouse.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Unless I find one study that proves that being newly wed causes one's wife to develop nymphomania...

I still got baited and switched


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## uncool (Dec 12, 2010)

where did she say he cheated ?

nvm... i see it at the bottom now in bright pink... lol... thought it was her sig


then yeah he's a bum. So honey you're a catch for most normal men. I'd love for my wife to show my any type of love at all. You'd be a breath of fresh air. I've never cheated. If I had sex once a week or so I'd think I was on cloud nine. Just trying to say that if he won't reconcile what he did then you easily could get a man worthy of you.


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## jd08 (Nov 20, 2012)

Stop blaming yourself. If you were making the effort to have sex 2-3 times a week with that many young children then he's a selfish prick for seeking it elsewhere.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Elk87 (Oct 8, 2012)

*Re: Re: you guys call it "the switch"but is some of it "just life*



Acorn said:


> "Life getting in the way": Honey, I know our sex life has been off a bit since we've been so busy. What can we do to make things less busy so we can resume what we had before?
> 
> "Switch": Honey, I know our sex life has been off a bit since we've been so busy. Your needs aren't important enough to change life enough to restore what we once had so please get used to it.


Couldn't agree with this more! :thumbup:

You are posting here, recognizing the issue, and hopefully taking steps to improve the romance, passion & intimacy. That is awesome! Now get after it & make some changes to do all these things. Marriage is a challenge, for sure!


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

My perception of the bait and switch is when one side does things with the express purpose of getting the other side to commit. This could be with respect to frequency or specific sex acts. Once they have the commitment they reveal they actually don't like those things and stop doing them. That is the classic bait and switch. I don't believe a person is doing either themselves or their partner a favour when they do this. 

Decreased frequency due to life circumstances is not bait and switch. One would expect that if this occurs as circumstances improve frequency should ramp back up. The big challenge in this situation is to maintain communication so it doesn't create resentment on either side.


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## Elk87 (Oct 8, 2012)

I'm not sure there is a term for it, but sometimes life just gets in the way and one partner is completely apathetic to improving the situation. They just resign to the fact that that is the way it is, so oh well. It's equally as crappy as bait & switch.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

There are other scenarios too.

Wife and hubby have kids. They still have a sex life. Nothing changes in life except kids get older. Suddenly, for whatever reason, the wife decides sex isn't important to her anymore. So the frequency goes from 2-3 times a week to once every other week...or every 6 weeks.

The wife then goes on to use these self same excuses to justify such a precipitous drop off: cramps, headache, tired, work, housework, etc.

Note, as far as outside observers (the hubby) can see, there has been no change in lifestyle. The kids haven't changed. The hours at work or amount of housework required hasn't changed. Three months ago, she wasn't too tired for sex. Now...she ...is...

How much did she age in 3 months?

Now, a good many posters here aren't complaining about a temporary drop off of a month, two months, even a YEAR! People change. Health, stress, mental stuff can all happen.

But when it continues until it becomes a habit?

SOMEONE made a unilateral decision to sideline sex. She set the priority switch without consulting the husband and when the husband decides to FIX the situation, he is called callous (this goes both ways genderwise. I'm using this because of the situation you cite)

Now, if the wife, after hearing about the problem, makes some changes to her schedule, or makes the extra effort to put out more than once every six weeks, things are better.

If she doesn't...or does it temporarily...that is quite a Switch.

Read some of the other sexless threads.


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## Elk87 (Oct 8, 2012)

*Re: Re: you guys call it "the switch"but is some of it "just life*



JCD said:


> There are other scenarios too.
> 
> Wife and hubby have kids. They still have a sex life. Nothing changes in life except kids get older. Suddenly, for whatever reason, the wife decides sex isn't important to her anymore. So the frequency goes from 2-3 times a week to once every other week...or every 6 weeks.
> 
> ...


Yep, I've been dealing with this very thing for a few years now, and when I bring up that our sex life could use some improving, then I'm the jerk. I should be happy with what I get because she has ZERO sex drive so it's all for me. Why must I be so "sensitive" about it?! What's the big friggin' deal?! Then I get the eye-rolling statements of, "Well, I guess I just need to 'do it' more with you." Yeah, that's what I want.

Hmmm...she could attempt to care & explore the problem area WITH me and stop acting like a selfish child hoarding all the toys & games.

I wonder how she would feel if I took such an apathetic stance on her needs & desires. She'll find out soon enough, because really love can't survive in conditions when one partner doesn't give a crap about the others' needs.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

goodwife4 said:


> so why is it that we ( usually woman ) are expected to keep up the every night sex routine
> 
> .... plus have babies, which keep us awake and we are so tired we feel like dying !
> have a career
> ...


According to your list sex is a chore. That right there is the problem. It reeks of Bait and Switch. Sex was given or promised before marriage but in reality the woman considers it a chore to service her husband. She apparently is willing to service his physiological need just enough to get what she wants from him (diamond ring, paycheck, home handyman, dna, etc).

I have a career and am expected to be the primary financial provider for the family. I take care of the cars. I do most of the cooking and most of the grocery shopping. I drive the kids around all over the place for their school and activities. I take care of home repairs and much of the yard work.  I shovel the snow. I do some laundry, some general cleaning.

And I really enjoy getting naked with my wife as a pleasurable activity. It is not another chore on the to-do list.

When a man knows his wife was willingly providing good sex to other men and even to him before the wedding but now it is a chore to her, he is not going to think well of the situation.

All of that aside, your husband's infidelity is a whole different issue. If the sex life in the marriage was not acceptable to him it was not justification to cheat.


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## honeysuckle rose (Jun 11, 2010)

goodwife4 said:


> äfter reading some of the respenses on here particularly about women who have high sex drive when first with you then it fades away.... you call this the switch ...
> 
> but my question is isnt some of this just life !??
> 
> ...


This is EXACTLY what I was saying w/ my Good Enuf thread. People change. It's not always a bait & switch. Not all women are chomping at the bit for sex ever day. Bcuz you want it less (or not at all years later) doesnt make you a horrible woman, if you service him (waiting for the arrows!) enthusiastically & w/ love BCUZ you love him. That's not duty sex. 

Normal is different for everbody. You have to meet in the middle AND not get pissy bcuz your SO doesn't have YOUR specific desire for however much sex. Geesh.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## honeysuckle rose (Jun 11, 2010)

john_lord_b3 said:


> sorry to hear about this


Me too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

uncool said:


> *where did she say he cheated ?
> 
> nvm... i see it at the bottom now in bright pink... lol... thought it was her sig*
> 
> ...


The pink IS her sig... but if you go and look at other posts she has made in other threads, you will get the whole picture. She has posted about it in other threads.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

goodwife4 said:


> äfter reading some of the respenses on here particularly about women who have high sex drive when first with you then it fades away.... you call this the switch ...
> 
> but my question is isnt some of this just life !??
> 
> ...


IT's bait and switch.

Your man wants a fulfilling sex life over all of the items you mention as "just life".. Those items are your agenda not on your husband's agenda. You (the wife) get married to get those things. Your husband does not proritize any of those things over a fulfiling sex life. You act all sexual to get the man and to then get the kids, the house to clean and a carreer to focus on. Sex is no longer useful to you.

Your man gets married to maintain the treatment he is getting from you when you are his girlfrend. That all goes poof once you get the marriage and your focus becomes all the non sexual stuff.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

honeysuckle rose said:


> This is EXACTLY what I was saying w/ my Good Enuf thread. People change. It's not always a bait & switch. Not all women are chomping at the bit for sex ever day. Bcuz you want it less (or not at all years later) doesnt make you a horrible woman, if you service him (waiting for the arrows!) enthusiastically & w/ love BCUZ you love him. That's not duty sex.
> 
> Normal is different for everbody. You have to meet in the middle AND not get pissy bcuz your SO doesn't have YOUR specific desire for however much sex. Geesh.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


People do change.

However if you change so much to the point where you don't want to make love to your partner anymore, than you should do the noble thing and let them loose, so they can find somebody who is into them, and you can free yourself from the pressures of having to constantly endure sexual encounters for their sake.

There is absolutely nothing sexy about one-sided sex.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

I do believe that “Yes”, life happens and what you want changes over time. Yet, you need to tell your old dating self that. Boys and girls do things to impress potential mates. Girls tend to be more sexual, guys can be chivalrous or whatever. It is about trying to make that special someone feel special. Then you buy the cow and those efforts start getting lax.....


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

clriebari said:


> These sound like strawman arguments to me.


Again, she posted all of these things trying to sort out "why" he cheated on her. When really, the answer to that question was that he was a selfish pr!ck!


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

The other side of bait and switch is someone who when dating gives their partner shoulder massages after a hard day...compliments their appearance...brings home little gifts to show appreciation etc. then stops once the ring is on. That too is bait and switch.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

MaritimeGuy said:


> The other side of bait and switch is someone who when dating gives their partner shoulder massages after a hard day...compliments their appearance...brings home little gifts to show appreciation etc. then stops once the ring is on. That too is bait and switch.



She did that too! See it's not all about sex.


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## Elk87 (Oct 8, 2012)

*Re: Re: you guys call it "the switch"but is some of it "just life*



MaritimeGuy said:


> The other side of bait and switch is someone who when dating gives their partner shoulder massages after a hard day...compliments their appearance...brings home little gifts to show appreciation etc. then stops once the ring is on. That too is bait and switch.


Also true. Typically though, I think one precludes the other.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

The husband can switch too. Switch to a younger, more beautiful wife that likes sex. 

That's just life. 

OP is a straw man:



> my hubby told me he wasnt happy with our sex life from an early point


You had trouble in your sex life from the very beginning. Nothing has changed. 

I don't get any satisfaction out of knowing your marriage had this problem. It's a tragedy, but the OP is a carefully constructed diversion from a problem that existed at the outset.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Wiserforit said:


> The husband can switch too. Switch to a younger, more beautiful wife that likes sex.


:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Can not breathe...


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

A woman goes into a marriage thinking "He can change"

A man goes into a marriage thinking "she won't change"


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

I think this is because of a fundamental difference in the sex drives between men and women. 

In general, a man's drive exists all by itself. It doesn't matter what is going on in his life--kids, job, marriage,etc--he always has the desire. It is like hunger. He is not just hungry at certain times in his life. He will always be hungry, eat, be hungry, etc for the rest of his life. 

In general, a woman's drive is much more situational. If she is the right situations, she may have a very high drive. For example, she may be very sexual if she is in a new relationship, on vacation, at a party, got a big raise, etc. But if it is just some boring, normal Tuesday, she may not have much drive at all. And her drive can be greatly affected by external things like being tired, not good day at work, bad traffic, etc.

The problem in marriage often comes about when the woman does not see the lack of drive as a problem. It's like if she only thought her husband should eat when she was hungry. He still has a need to eat and she should not discount that just because she's not hungry. Hopefully the husband and wife can meet in the middle where he may gets it a little less than he prefers and she does it a little more.


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## homebuilder (Aug 25, 2012)

goodwife4 said:


> äfter reading some of the respenses on here particularly about women who have high sex drive when first with you then it fades away.... you call this the switch ...
> 
> but my question is isnt some of this just life !??
> 
> ...



Where did make the assumption that men don't help out around the house help with kids, finances, cooking and all that I do my part so that excuse won't work for me
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Elk87 (Oct 8, 2012)

Mine has not been a 100% sexless marriage, though there have been some significant dry spells. The issue has been more about lack of passion, desire & flair, and my W's apathetic attitude about improving that. When I have asked for suggestions, hers are either self-serving (more nights out & getaways, playing cards/board games & just having fun together - which often lead to her avoiding sex/passion in new & creative ways following those things), or she just shrugs & says there is nothing we can do.

It comes down to this:

If I was not meeting meeting familial duties like bringing home a paycheck, being an involved father, a caring & good listening husband, doing chores, etc., you can bet my W would feel disappointed, frustrated & unloved. This would be especially true if I flat out dismissed her complaints as unworthy of my attention. So what would I do, out of love, if my W complained about these things? I'd try to take steps to help & please her. This is marriage, right?

I am not seeking an overnight change because I'm dissatisfied, but to be told that this is how it is & will likely stay the same, until death do us part, is unacceptable.

For some reason though, it isn't the same with sex & a husband's needs. I've asked my wife this same question with the same scenario & she cannot answer.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Wiserforit said:


> You had trouble in your sex life from the very beginning. Nothing has changed.


Nothing has changed, eh? So, when he told her he was unhappy and what he would like from her, and she gladly did those things for him, that wasn't a change? 



Wiserforit said:


> I don't get any satisfaction out of knowing your marriage had this problem. It's a tragedy, but the OP is a carefully constructed diversion from a problem that existed at the outset.


Again, she did work to change the things he said he wanted. All you have to do is read her posts on other threads and you will see this. She had physical pain after one baby was born and yet, she still had sex. Why? Because he wanted it. Personally, I wouldn't have had sex if I was in pain, but that's my opinion. The point is, she changed what she did, increased frequency and I believe she even stated in another thread that she DID begin initiating once he told her that he wanted HER to do it as well. And yet, her doing as he asked wasn't enough. He felt entitled to sex from someone else. Yea, poor husband... my ass! I am still of a mind that there is no excuse for cheating. None.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

homebuilder said:


> Where did make the assumption that men don't help out around the house help with kids, finances, cooking and all that I do my part so that excuse won't work for me
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Perhaps because her husband left it all to her so he could go out and sleep around? No, not ALL men are like that, thank God. Unfortunately, there are some.


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## Elk87 (Oct 8, 2012)

If theW is motivated at all (and sincerely) to sexually improve herself/her situation for the sake of her marriage then I wouldn't fault that one bit. 

It's the "game over" attitude that irks me to no end.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

honeysuckle rose said:


> People change. It's not always a bait & switch. Not all women are chomping at the bit for sex ever day. Bcuz you want it less (or not at all years later) doesnt make you a horrible woman, if you service him (waiting for the arrows!) _*enthusiastically & w/ love BCUZ you love him*_. That's not duty sex.


Agree with the above (especially the parts I emphasized).

The problem is, accomodation/connection sex (I won't call what you described above "duty" sex either) is by far the exception and not the norm. Based on we read here, there is always a sign (usually intentional) that the sex is an accomodation or that the LD spouse would rather be doing something else:

* Promises of sex are unfulfilled.
* LD spouse complains about requests for sex.
* LD spouse lays in bed like a board.
* Sex is routinized to make it boring and unappealing.

If LD spouses adopted truly adopted the spirit of what you are saying above (love and enthusiasm), then there would not be a problem - because the HD spouse would not be able to tell the difference.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

monkeyboy said:


> If theW is motivated at all (and sincerely) to sexually improve herself/her situation for the sake of her marriage then I wouldn't fault that one bit.
> 
> It's the "game over" attitude that irks me to no end.


Just to clarify, do you mean GW or your own wife's attitude? I ask, sincerely, because you did mention your wife's attitude earlier...


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

monkeyboy said:


> For some reason though, it isn't the same with sex & a husband's needs. I've asked my wife this same question with the same scenario & she cannot answer.


Sorry to hear you are in that situation. But, there's no need to be confused.

Here's an eye-opener for you. Your wife does know exactly what the answer to your scenario is. The problem is her answer confirms your impression she is selfish and disrespectful of you. You think she would admit "that's different. I need a nice home and secure life - sex is nowhere near as important to me"?

Have you heard of the saying "better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt"? All your wife is doing is taking this advice. 

What you need to do is approach your scenario from "you know how important it is to a woman that her man does XYZ? Well, it's just as important that the man get ABC from her?"


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## Elk87 (Oct 8, 2012)

*Re: Re: you guys call it "the switch"but is some of it "just life*



Maricha75 said:


> Just to clarify, do you mean GW or your own wife's attitude? I ask, sincerely, because you did mention your wife's attitude earlier...


Well, thinking of my wife as I wrote this, but my statement about any spouse to work to meet the needs of their other should be sincere & heartfelt. Otherwise, don't bother. I think in GW's case, there was a sincere attempt to improve the situation & that's awesome!:thumbup:


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

monkeyboy said:


> Well, thinking of my wife as I wrote this, but my statement about any spouse to work to meet the needs of their other should be sincere & heartfelt. Otherwise, don't bother. I think in GW's case, there was a sincere attempt to improve the situation & that's awesome!:thumbup:


Ok, thanks. Sorry about the confusion there lol.

Yes, from what I have read of her posts, she genuinely did try to improve as he asked. And he still decided to cheat on her. That's what gets me upset.... when it appears that anyone is condoning that (appears, not necessarily doing so), or they gloss over it, and start implying she didn't do her "job" to keep him happy. It irritates me.


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## Elk87 (Oct 8, 2012)

*Re: Re: you guys call it "the switch"but is some of it "just life*



DTO said:


> Sorry to hear you are in that situation. But, there's no need to be confused.
> 
> Here's an eye-opener for you. Your wife does know exactly what the answer to your scenario is. The problem is her answer confirms your impression she is selfish and disrespectful of you. You think she would admit "that's different. I need a nice home and secure life - sex is nowhere near as important to me"?
> 
> ...


Funny thing about your hypothetical quote. She _has actually told me, "It's different..." Messed up & delusional, for sure!

You are correct on all fronts, unfortunately. I'm not without blame though, as I've enabled much of the behavior, not strong enough to confront b.s. as it comes, being wishy-washy, accepting "good enough," making excuses, etc. The plan is to work on me first, the see what then happens in my marriage. If nothing changes, then the answer is simple...& I refuse to live in a loveless marriage with someone who doesn't care about my needs & desires._


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## yellowledbet (Sep 5, 2012)

I really think the bait and switch is rare. I think it is more likely that everyone puts their best foot forward at the beginning of a relationship. As life and responsibilities change there is not enough time or energy to balance everything plus act like newly weds.


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## goodwife4 (Jan 7, 2013)

*john_lord:[/B] yes it is no longer 2 or 3 times a week, we had another baby about 1 year ago and we decided to have another baby when i was blaming myself for affair.... maybe not the best idea at the time.

jaharthur: what is strawman ??

Maricha yes i think it was excuse , i wanted a happy husband thats why i endured the pain after baby ? maybe i have made him into the monster ??:scratchhead:

jaquen : he thinks he is a normal guy ? and he thinks all guys are miserable except those few who have nympho wives or girlfriends ?? he says his unhappiness was becasue even though i never said no i didnt initiate half the time,,, maybe only 10 % and basically he says i have made him feel inadequate for that ??


dubbizle: i only wanted less sex because of a baby and i had trauma during birth and baby who never slept for more than 1 hour at a time also, so i was constantly tired. even though all of this we still did it but maybe only 1 time a week until baby slept more. then it went to 2 - 3 times a week.. til next baby... after all 3 babies slept thru night no problems then, and regualar 2 to 3 times week for 13 years 


uncool: i think he did just want to get off cause he still felt the need to help himself out at least 1 to 2 times a week, i even complained about this saying i was ok with maybe 1 more time a week but it was easier for him to do it himself, he said ???............... i dont want it now becasue i think of all that i have done and he still had sex with someone else and then lied to me about it for 3 years ....... finally telling me out of guilt....... he doesnt think i am a catch, he just thinks i am not trying hard enough ?? or wasnt trying hard enough during our marriage.... except at the beginning that is
 he told me he loved me just the way i am... this was just after telling me of his unfaithfulness ...... but now he is back to normal !

thor: sex was NEVER ( or hardly ever ) a chore to me !he just thought i was a super woman who could do it all !!! but i dont know any woman like this,..... or very few actual super women who do it all. he did NOT fulfil his father responsibilities, he spent most of the time in front of the TV but i wasnt trying hard enough ??

honeysucklerose: i was always enthusiastic, actually if he gave me the chance to i would have made moves on him, but he would just stick his hands down my pants as soon as i got into bed ?!
and often wake me during the middle of the night by taking off my underwear and we would do it then.... this was pretty normal actually 

hicks: i understand that from a mans point of view, you dont care about the many many things most of us women do as long as we are up for and enthusiastic about sex all the time...... but what about the fact that he wasnt supportive, stopped telling me i loked good, stopped buying me any flowers, actually anything FULL STOP !.... didnt do anything nice for me except mothers day id get breakfast in bed.....t hats it, one nice thing per year .......
now thats the bait and switch if i ever saw it


well i have tried to answer questions & resposes but i suppose as Maricha  said, i am just tring to figure out why he was unfaithful, i blamed myself for about 1 year and since i had baby 4 and had another trauma birth i have thought "why should i put myself thru pain for you ??!..............
then since that point we only did it 1 x month or so until about 3 months ago when i wouldnt let him do anything at all

i have told him and he knows i am struggling with what he did and he hasnt tried anything on me since i told him not to 

he has apologized many times but it is very very hard for me to not think about what he did to us, to our marriage and my trust in him has gone...issed:*


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

goodwife4 said:


> äfter reading some of the respenses on here particularly about women who have high sex drive when first with you then it fades away.... you call this the switch ...
> 
> but my question is isnt some of this just life !??
> 
> ...


Okay...

Unless the guy is a total asshat (and, by far, most guys are not), then while you are doing the above, he is also:

having a career
helping keeping the house clean
helping with the cooking
running errands
fixing stuff that breaks around the house
maintaining the exterior grounds
the list goes on ......

So, in reality, what you have is not a beaten down woman with an insensitive husband asking for sex. You have two equally worn-down people where the husband still makes energy for sex and the woman would rather do something else.

So, the question becomes "how can the woman look at her husband who works just as hard as she and repeatedly turn him down and thus elevating her needs over his?"

Notice how people who claim to be too drained for sex certainly find a way when the husband moves on and she wants a new man. OTOH, the smart women (I have one friend who readily admits this) know sex is part of the deal. Being on the dating scene is hard. Its far easier to do it now rather than have to attract someone new and then still put forth the ongoing effort.


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## Elk87 (Oct 8, 2012)

Nicely put, DTO! 

Important to keep in mind though that the OP is also dealing with an affair history as well.

Your analysis of withholding wives (generally speaking) is spot on though!


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

yellowledbet said:


> I really think the bait and switch is rare. I think it is more likely that everyone puts their best foot forward at the beginning of a relationship. As life and responsibilities change there is not enough time or energy to balance everything plus act like newly weds.


A lot of people report sex drop off mere months after the wedding.


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## yellowledbet (Sep 5, 2012)

jaquen said:


> A lot of people report sex drop off mere months after the wedding.


I don't disagree. I just think the term bait and switch implies a planned motive. I think the transition to married life can quickly change every aspect of relationship even when there are the best of intentions.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

monkeyboy said:


> Nicely put, DTO!
> 
> Important to keep in mind though that the OP is also dealing with an affair history as well.


Yup, that's why I have the qualifier


> Unless the guy is a total asshat..."


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## romantic_guy (Nov 8, 2011)

I can only tell you my experience. While we were dating at 16 & 17 my wife was hot and horny. She got pregnant and we got married. After a few years I would say, "Where is that hot horny girl I married??" Seemed like I wanted sex all of the time...her not so much. 

As I look back, there was no bait and switch. There was a baby right away, but more than that I had no idea how to treat a woman. So not only was she exhausted with a new baby, but she could not feel like being intimate while her spirit was wounded. Over time I learned that a woman needs to feel intimate to desire sex whereas a man needs sex to feel intimacy. 

Today, 40 years later, we don't have sex every day, but we do about 3 times a week and it is usually passionate and fulfilling.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

romantic_guy said:


> Today, 40 years later, we don't have sex every day, but we do about 3 times a week and it is usually passionate and fulfilling.


:smthumbup: It is better to have great sex 3 times a week than have unfullfilling sex everyday!


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

jaquen said:


> Most of the guys here aren't asking for daily sex. Most would LOVE the 2-3 times a week you have.
> 
> So I'm not sure why you're applying a specific issue you have with your husband to a general consensus on TAM that frankly does not exist.


I think the term bait and switch surely does not apply to the OP.

2-3 times a week hardly counts as a bait and switch.

When someone "switches" they knew all a long they were going to do it.

It is totally reasonable (or it should be) to expect the frequency to ebb and flow. What is more important is that it is fulfilling for both partners. 

Your husband sounds like a manipulator. Be careful, dear.


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

monkeyboy said:


> I'm not sure there is a term for it, but sometimes life just gets in the way and one partner is completely apathetic to improving the situation. They just resign to the fact that that is the way it is, so oh well. It's equally as crappy as bait & switch.


I disagree here.

There is a difference between the type of man/woman who pulls a a bait and switch and someone who just loses interest.

For someone without a super high drive, other things start to take over their brain. Sex gets pushed to the back. Well for the high drive person, hell could freeze over and they'd still be thinking about sex. 

If I had 3 kids and a baby had just thrown up on me, when I crawled into bed the last thing on my mind would be sex.

I can't speak for all women but I think this happens a lot. 

Especially when women become mothers, I think they don't "feel" sexy. Women need to feel sexy to want sex. 

Or they can have duty sex but that's a whole other can of worms.

One is easier to fix.


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

honeysuckle rose said:


> This is EXACTLY what I was saying w/ my Good Enuf thread. People change. It's not always a bait & switch. Not all women are chomping at the bit for sex ever day. Bcuz you want it less (or not at all years later) doesnt make you a horrible woman, if you service him (waiting for the arrows!) enthusiastically & w/ love BCUZ you love him. That's not duty sex.
> 
> Normal is different for everbody. You have to meet in the middle AND not get pissy bcuz your SO doesn't have YOUR specific desire for however much sex. Geesh.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

I wish I could kiss you right now. Seriously. LOVE.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

monkeyboy said:


> Funny thing about your hypothetical quote. She _has actually told me, "It's different..." Messed up & delusional, for sure!
> 
> You are correct on all fronts, unfortunately. I'm not without blame though, as I've enabled much of the behavior, not strong enough to confront b.s. as it comes, being wishy-washy, accepting "good enough," making excuses, etc. The plan is to work on me first, the see what then happens in my marriage. If nothing changes, then the answer is simple...& I refuse to live in a loveless marriage with someone who doesn't care about my needs & desires._


_

Sorry to hear that. The response you need to come back with is "no, it's not. Most of what you claim is a need is just as frivolous as you perceive sex to be. Yet you get most of what you want due to our combined effort; I expect the same".

At some point, you need to speak the straight truth. "No, sex is not the only thing, but yes it is a deal breaker." "Yes, you are a bad wife if you are more important than me." "Yes, if you think he is so good because he does not complain, well that's not me."

It sounds harsh, but here's the situation: you're being treated in an unacceptably poor manner. Previous attempts to discuss the issue have failed to yield results. And, to be truthful, your wife knows what you are saying and is just blowing you off. So, you might as well be blunt (none of the above is rude).

There are only two basic rationales for her behavior. One, she really does not intend to treat you as her equal, and would just as soon leave as act right. So, yeah, if that's the case this may end the relationship. But, do you really want to be with her if she does regard you in that manner?

The other alternative is she knows what you ask is reasonable and is just seeing how far she can push you (for whatever reason). In that case, laying it out will just put her on notice and should produce positive results._


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## romantic_guy (Nov 8, 2011)

john_lord_b3 said:


> :smthumbup: It is better to have great sex 3 times a week than have unfullfilling sex everyday!


I totally agree! After a few days we are BOTH really ready! Sometimes we go at it like two teenagers again. I think it is better to let the passion build for a few days.


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

monkeyboy said:


> Mine has not been a 100% sexless marriage, though there have been some significant dry spells. The issue has been more about lack of passion, desire & flair, and my W's apathetic attitude about improving that. When I have asked for suggestions, hers are either self-serving (more nights out & getaways, playing cards/board games & just having fun together - which often lead to her avoiding sex/passion in new & creative ways following those things), or she just shrugs & says there is nothing we can do.
> 
> It comes down to this:
> 
> ...


You seem like a good guy and I'm sorry things aren't working out.

Have you conveyed to her this not just a purely physical need?

Serious question, because sometimes women just don't get this. Hell, I know I didn't until quite recently. 

If she hears "honey I need to get my rocks off more" when you say " I want/need more sex" she is a lot more likely to roll her eyes at you and shrug.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> If I had 3 kids and a baby had just thrown up on me, when I crawled into bed the last thing on my mind would be sex.
> 
> I can't speak for all women but I think this happens a lot.
> 
> Especially when women become mothers, I think they don't "feel" sexy. Women need to feel sexy to want sex.


The baby barf is a straw man. First, most days are not barf and diaper blowouts. They are steady busy at a level a competent adult can handle. I am a parent and had a small toddler and a special-needs child together, so I know what I'm talking about.

So, on that occasional bad day no sex is fine. But that does not explain a chronic lack of sex. Let's say one day you have a sick kid, and the next day you recover from the extra care needed. Why is there no sex on days 3, 4, etc.?

Two, people generally don't have multiple births. You have one kid, then (generally a couple of year later, at least) you have another, and so on. So, saying you have three kids and are so busy you can't manage is a cop-out. You know kids are work after the first one. If you feel you cannot handle another responsibility, don't pop out another kid.

Then, yes women need to feel sexy to want sex. Guess what? Guys also need to be in the mood to want sex, or any myriad number of things. But, those things still get done regardless.

Also, even the most LD woman manages to develop a sex drive when she is ready to TTC. So, why not muster that energy just to maintain a level of eroticism?


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

DTO said:


> The baby barf is a straw man. First, most days are not barf and diaper blowouts. They are steady busy at a level a competent adult can handle. I am a parent and had a small toddler and a special-needs child together, so I know what I'm talking about.
> 
> So, on that occasional bad day no sex is fine. But that does not explain a chronic lack of sex. Let's say one day you have a sick kid, and the next day you recover from the extra care needed. Why is there no sex on days 3, 4, etc.?
> 
> ...


I'm not justifying but I am trying to explain the possible mentality behind it.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

yellowledbet said:


> I don't disagree. I just think the term bait and switch implies a planned motive. I think the transition to married life can quickly change every aspect of relationship even when there are the best of intentions.


Interesting concept. If that's true, we can't call anything a bait and switch, since we don't have proof of intent (unless someone actually admits it). I'm not sure how I feel about that.

My take on this: If I were in that position again, I would speak up immediately. I would not say it was on purpose, but I would say it's unacceptable and needs to change. If positive change is to be had, then all is well.

If not, she's either done it on purpose, or she is so indifferent to my needs she can hear me out and yet not change, in which case she may as well be doing it on purpose.

Essentially, I'm either a priority or I'm not. Her sex drive might be going through some quirk, but respect and esteem are more enduring. If within a short time after marriage the sex is bad despite my complaints, then she never really liked me that much and the term "bait and switch" applies.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Nothing has changed, eh?
> 
> ...And yet, her doing as he asked wasn't enough. He felt entitled to sex from someone else. Yea, poor husband... my ass! I am still of a mind that there is no excuse for cheating. None.


There is endless logical fallacy peddling in this arena.

"I tried"? I wish I could give that answer to everything I failed at. 

Who justified affairs? I said to marry a young, more beautiful wife that likes sex. It's working for me. The house is a lot messier, she doesn't do bills, and her career is me & the kids.

By me, I don't mean keeping the house to her standards and telling me she is too tired from cleaning. Ask most men whether they would like a BJ or have the wife scrub the bathroom tile. 

Come to think of it, I'm the only one who has ever scrubbed the shower.


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Wiserforit said:


> There is endless logical fallacy peddling in this arena.
> 
> "I tried"? I wish I could give that answer to everything I failed at.
> 
> ...


Are there ANY non-super sexual women you have any respect for or they are all *****es? And is that all you value in a woman? I just want someone to watch the kids and **** me?

I can see your problem with me even if I disagree with nearly everything you say. 

But this woman...wrong person to point this at.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> I'm not justifying but I am trying to explain the possible mentality behind it.


Understood.

I'm just pointing out your argument is based on an inaccurate portrayal of family life. You are not married or a parent. And, you tend towards hyperbole.

You also need to remember that we are not discussing an occasional slow down in sex. We are talking about long-term if not permanent deprivation of sex.


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

DTO said:


> Understood.
> 
> I'm just pointing out your argument is based on an inaccurate portrayal of family life. You are not married or a parent. And, you tend towards hyperbole.
> 
> You also need to remember that we are not discussing an occasional slow down in sex. We are talking about long-term if not permanent deprivation of sex.


I was under the impression we were discussing the OP's post.

She had 3 young kids. 2-3 times a week. And he still *****ed about it.

In HER case, are these reasons not reasonable for not being able to give "more"?


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## Elk87 (Oct 8, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> You seem like a good guy and I'm sorry things aren't working out.
> 
> Have you conveyed to her this not just a purely physical need?
> 
> ...


Thank you for your words. Truly. 

I hope I'm not threadjacking here, but I wanted to respond to your question as best as I can.

I have actually conveyed to her on more than one occasion what sex means to me, and most men, and even do so in MC. She's been in IC for some issues of childhood emotional abuse, a rape from almost 20 years ago and some other stuff too. I've supported and really lead us into both of those things after it became apparent that she was avoiding sex and reluctant to get very passionate with me anymore. The first few years of our marriage were _very_ passionate though. So, I know she has the information about my needs, and I've been very clear, but she remains pretty stuck on it just being physical for me, which she should just be able to clear up with once per week duty sex. 

One thing: You said I sound like a "good guy," and that is dead on. I'm _too_ much of a "good guy," which is why I began reading "No More Mr. Nice Guy," which has led me to believe that I have done far too much in this relationship, shown far too much vulnerability & not enough confidence, enabled her by doing all I could to make her life easy so she'd want to be intimate with me. This is all pretty messed-up co-dependent thinking on my part - trying to fix her and sending the wrong message. I'm sure lots of guys struggle with this. 

I'm at a point now that I am refocusing my efforts on me. We are on a sexual moratorium of sorts, mainly because I got very clear (not mean) with her a couple weeks ago that I remain dissatisfied in our sex life and if things don't change there will be problems down the line. She pretty much got angry, shut down and stormed off, after telling me that I was treating her like a child by telling her she's "not trying" and "inadequate in the bedroom," along with me "just looking for reasons to divorce." None of those things did I ever say then or ever before. 

Anyway, I'm trying to strengthen myself and my boundaries now, and re-realize that I don't need her or sex for my own happiness. It's a painful process, but in the end it's all I can do, as she's not interested in helping herself or us anymore. I could demand more counseling, but if her hearts not in it then it's pointless. I need to take back the lead, regain my confidence in this home and see if she follows. If not, then I suppose the marriage is dead. We are heading towards doom anyway if I don't do anything or do more of the same, so there is really nothing left to lose.

I'm in a good place in some ways because I've always taken care of myself physically and am now very aware of my emotional deficiencies that I need to change. It's just a matter of not enabling or allowing her to take advantage of me anymore. She just may realize something within herself - or not. 

You also mentioned that she needs to feel sexy. I have, without a doubt in my mind, bent over backwards working on this, be it counseling & suggestions we took from there, researching online and in books, talking to other close guy friends about what they do, and on & on. I won't go into all the details, but we've tried so much I really don't even know what else I could that wouldn't be just retreading old territory that went nowhere in the past.

One of my earlier points though was that this is NOT just about sex for me right now. It's about a mutual love and respect for your partner. When she blows off my needs and desires, she is basically telling me that they are not important to her. I understand she has a sensitive and scarred history, but to do nothing about it while your marriage crumbles shows a lack of faith in the marriage itself. I can't tell her what to do - she must want better for us. I'm certainly doing all I can.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Wiserforit said:


> There is endless logical fallacy peddling in this arena.
> 
> "I tried"? I wish I could give that answer to everything I failed at.
> 
> ...


Convenient that you cut out the part of my post where I said she did everything asked of her. And that she even had sex when she was in physical pain. What more is she supposed to do, when she has done all he asked, willingly because she loved him (I don't say loves because at this point... idk, I'm not so sure I could say I love my husband if I learned he had been having sex with other women). She even did it when she was physically in pain. So, how is that not considered "trying"? 

Now, you married a younger woman... surely you can also admit that some younger women don't like sex and some older women like it more? My husband would be in the latter camp... married an older women who likes sex. It has nothing to do with whether you marry younger or older.

I'd say it's a safe bet that most men would prefer a BJ over a clean bathroom. But there are some men who would be b!tching if there is dust on the bookshelves, even if everything else was done and the wife was taking care of him. Some people (both men and women) just aren't happy unless there is some sort of conflict. 

Sigh... I WISH my husband would scrub the shower.... or take out the trash... or vacuum... or anything, really. Seriously, I'd be happy if even one chore was done by him...even if it was the easiest of them all.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I was under the impression we were discussing the OP's post.
> 
> She had 3 young kids. 2-3 times a week. *And he still *****ed about it.*
> 
> In HER case, are these reasons not reasonable for not being able to give "more"?


And screwed around...


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

monkeyboy said:


> Thank you for your words. Truly.
> 
> I hope I'm not threadjacking here, but I wanted to respond to your question as best as I can.
> 
> ...



I am so glad I read this. You sound like my fiancé might sound in 20 years.

Your wife reminds me of myself, a little bit.

I was also raped, routinely, as a child and teenager. Combine that with divorced parents who never talked about sex in a positive manner and you end up with....me. Or in your case, your wife.

My fiancé expects daily sex and I comply as best I can (no counting ceiling tiles or thinking about bills). I have been warned since I don't actually "like" sex, this is not sustainable.

It is possible that your wife doesn't like sex but she likes YOU.

I know my deepest, darkest fear is that he will leave me over sex one day. 

Perhaps this is where her anger comes from. Perhaps she feels you don't really love her if you'd make such a "big deal" over sex.

I know it makes little sense to you but it is very possible she's hurt you're unhappy despite all the other things she thinks she gives you. Now, these things may not mean **** to you but from her point of view "I give him ABC and ALL he cares about is the sex he's NOT getting."

Resentment is a sex killer on both ends.

Hopefully this helped....I'm young but I like to help when I can.

Best wishes, message me if you ever need to talk. You have every right to feel the way you do, please don't think I'm saying otherwise.

She is being unreasonable but at the end of the day, her mentality has to change. So maybe ask her some of these questions.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> Are there ANY non-super sexual women you have any respect for or they are all *****es? And is that all you value in a woman? I just want someone to watch the kids and **** me?


You're missing the point.

A woman who likes sex or at least makes it a consistent priority is not Superwoman or some statistical sex freak. She is the NORM!! I can point to my five partners other than my ex, plus the potentials I did not pursue, as strong evidence if not proof.

I can appreciate this makes you unhappy, and makes sustaining a long-term relationship more challenging. Unfortunately, no amount of denial is going to change that reality. 

I'm curious. What bothers you more - that this guy has sex as a high priority, or that he found someone willing to meet his need? Do you really think she is such an anomaly, or do you know better and are pissed off about it?

Rather than vilifying him for making a decision suiting his needs (and apparently hers), why not put your energy into turning your own drive around or, at least, finding someone like-minded?


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> I was under the impression we were discussing the OP's post.
> 
> She had 3 young kids. 2-3 times a week. And he still *****ed about it.
> 
> In HER case, are these reasons not reasonable for not being able to give "more"?


That's a fair enough question, but I was not addressing that aspect before. All I was saying is that your portrayal of family life is inaccurate, and having three kids is not an impediment to a robust sex life.

If she is providing enthusiastic sex and is present in the moment 2-3 times per week, that is reasonable. If she is "mailing it in", that is not reasonable.


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

DTO said:


> You're missing the point.
> 
> A woman who likes sex or at least makes it a consistent priority is not Superwoman or some statistical sex freak. She is the NORM!! I can point to my five partners other than my ex, plus the potentials I did not pursue, as strong evidence if not proof.
> 
> ...


My problem with his post is I find it insulting to the OP, who clearly tried her very best to make her relationship work with a man she loved. 

"He can just leave and find a younger wife who likes sex more."

Oh, how nice. Glad to see marriage is so sacred. 

What place does that comment have here?

It's rude....it really is.


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

DTO said:


> That's a fair enough question, but I was not addressing that aspect before. All I was saying is that your portrayal of family life is inaccurate, and having three kids is not an impediment to a robust sex life.
> 
> If she is providing enthusiastic sex and is present in the moment 2-3 times per week, that is reasonable. If she is "mailing it in", that is not reasonable.


I was referring specifically to her family life. 3 toddlers.

Honestly, with his ass sitting in front of the TV, he didn't deserve jack ****. And she STILL tried. She should be ****ing knighted. 

It is not always entirely the fault of the less willing person. Often times it is, but not in this case.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> It is possible that your wife doesn't like sex but she likes YOU.
> 
> Perhaps this is where her anger comes from. Perhaps she feels you don't really love her if you'd make such a "big deal" over sex.
> 
> I know it makes little sense to you but it is very possible she's hurt you're unhappy despite all the other things she thinks she gives you. Now, these things may not mean **** to you but from her point of view "I give him ABC and ALL he cares about is the sex he's NOT getting."


Littlebird,

As much as this may trouble you, I think you are absolutely correct in this assessment. What happens is that the other stuff is good, but for a person of reasonable drive (not even HD) the lack of sex is a "deal-breaker".

That is why you got so much advice on your first thread to be truthful with your fiancee and work on yourself to overcome your sexual issues (understandable as they are).

Your feared outcome is certainly forseeable if the sex drops off the table. And that risk would be there with most guys, not just your fiancee.


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## Elk87 (Oct 8, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I am so glad I read this. You sound like my fiancé might sound in 20 years.
> 
> Your wife reminds me of myself, a little bit.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your response. I suppose I should take advantage of the fact that there's someone on here like my wife that might be able to give me some insight. 

I _do_ understand that she does not like sex, at least not as much as I do, but I think my larger concern is (like you said at the end) her mentality. She knows she has issues with sex and intimacy. I've made no secret that I'm ALL IN as her partner to help out in any way I can (and we've tried taking breaks from sex and just doing other physical touch and stuff like that), but she is now at a point where she's sick of trying to like it. Sick of trying to make it an enjoyable part of her life. I'm sure it's frustrating, but I've stayed with her and not given up during some pretty tough stuff and now she's throwing in the towel and using "D" word with me just because I want to try and improve things somehow. I'm not saying I have all the answers, because clearly I don't, but I know the answer for my wife and for us isn't just to settle into the mindset of "this is just how it's going to be."

I hope you are seeking some help for your history and that you don't give up. It's great that you are doing what you are doing in your relationship now to keep it going, but can you do that for a lifetime? Might be a good idea to start digging into your abuse history some more and trying to find a way to enjoy sexual intimacy again. 

Not sure if your future husband will be like me or not, but I would not leave my wife only due to sex. I would leave her for not prioritizing me in her life and giving up on herself and us. I'm a ready, willing and able partner just waiting for her to ask me to be a part of her journey for a better sex life and marriage - she just has to want to share that with me.


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

DTO said:


> Littlebird,
> 
> As much as this may trouble you, I think you are absolutely correct in this assessment. What happens is that the other stuff is good, but for a person of reasonable drive (not even HD) the lack of sex is a "deal-breaker".
> 
> ...


Oh, I know. And reading all of these posts, I have made one solid decision: I will never stop sleeping with him.

Because I have no interest in dying alone.

I'm a fundamentally good person. Nurturing, etc. But none of that amounts to jack **** if I'm not putting out. I'm not even mad about it anymore. I've resigned myself to it.

Such is life. The sky is blue...some things just are.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

A bait and switch is when the woman enters the agreement planning on cutting off or seriously cutting back on sex after they are married.

Men quite correctly consider this fraud of the worst sort.

What BOTH genders find absolutely maddening is 'the switch', which is A partner unilaterally cutting off the sex of unfathonamable reasons.

This is MUCH more common.

But honestly, the OP isn't indulging in that. If someone got a reasonable amount of sex (my definition of reasonable stops at less than once a week...) than it isn't a switch. More, naturally, is better.

The cheating is a seperate issue.


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

monkeyboy said:


> Thanks for your response. I suppose I should take advantage of the fact that there's someone on here like my wife that might be able to give me some insight.
> 
> I _do_ understand that she does not like sex, at least not as much as I do, but I think my larger concern is (like you said at the end) her mentality. She knows she has issues with sex and intimacy. I've made no secret that I'm ALL IN as her partner to help out in any way I can (and we've tried taking breaks from sex and just doing other physical touch and stuff like that), but she is now at a point where she's sick of trying to like it. Sick of trying to make it an enjoyable part of her life. I'm sure it's frustrating, but I've stayed with her and not given up during some pretty tough stuff and now she's throwing in the towel and using "D" word with me just because I want to try and improve things somehow. I'm not saying I have all the answers, because clearly I don't, but I know the answer for my wife and for us isn't just to settle into the mindset of "this is just how it's going to be."
> 
> ...


You just made me cry a little bit, no joke. 

You are an exceptional man. You have been patient, understanding and empathetic. 

I wish you the very best with this, I do. She needs to realize most men would have ditched her already. It's refreshing to see someone who takes their vows as seriously as they should be taken.

And to answer your question, yes I'm in therapy. It doesn't help. Therapy is sort of like hypnosis. Strong minded people tend to progress a lot slower.


----------



## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Are there ANY non-super sexual women you have any respect for or they are all *****es? And is that all you value in a woman? I just want someone to watch the kids and **** me?
> 
> I can see your problem with me even if I disagree with nearly everything you say.
> 
> But this woman...wrong person to point this at.


You have a filthy mouth, which I do not respect when it is to this degree - in half of the sentences you post like above. 

That isn't anywhere near the lack of respect that habitual lying buys a person though. 

The other 7 billion people on earth, of either gender, have zero value to me for sex. My respect for them is based largely on their integrity. 

Children? We watch them together. I work from home, by choice, so that I can. Our first child learned to read at age two and is using adult computer programs at age three. Calling up his own programs, sending emails to grandma and his uncle with art attachments he made with paint. He has his own desktop.

The one-year old is more of a musician. I play several instruments, so I am teaching him piano. He picks his own you-tube videos to watch and sing along to. Both these kids are way, way out in front of their cohorts and it is because I am teaching them. We have an athletic program too. I coached professionally, but I am retired in order to put all my efforts into these kids alongside my wife.


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

monkeyboy said:


> Thanks for your response. I suppose I should take advantage of the fact that there's someone on here like my wife that might be able to give me some insight.
> 
> I _do_ understand that she does not like sex, at least not as much as I do, but I think my larger concern is (like you said at the end) her mentality. She knows she has issues with sex and intimacy. I've made no secret that I'm ALL IN as her partner to help out in any way I can (and we've tried taking breaks from sex and just doing other physical touch and stuff like that), but she is now at a point where she's sick of trying to like it. Sick of trying to make it an enjoyable part of her life. I'm sure it's frustrating, but I've stayed with her and not given up during some pretty tough stuff and now she's throwing in the towel and using "D" word with me just because I want to try and improve things somehow. I'm not saying I have all the answers, because clearly I don't, but I know the answer for my wife and for us isn't just to settle into the mindset of "this is just how it's going to be."
> 
> ...





Wiserforit said:


> You have a filthy mouth, which I do not respect when it is to this degree - in half of the sentences you post like above.
> 
> That isn't anywhere near the lack of respect that habitual lying buys a person though.
> 
> ...


Disregarding all of that irrelevance, I wonder WHY you felt the need to respond the OP's post with that "younger, prettier wife" comment.

Good on you for your prodigy kids, I grew up around a lot of them. Most of us turn out to be freaks. Fair warning.

Your response to her has nothing to do with your distaste for me nor mine for you.

You don't think it was rude or at all misplaced?


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## goodwife4 (Jan 7, 2013)

DTO said:


> Okay...
> 
> Unless the guy is a total asshat (and, by far, most guys are not), then while you are doing the above, he is also:
> 
> ...


----------



## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Convenient that you cut out the part of my post where I said she did everything asked of her. And that she even had sex when she was in physical pain. What more is she supposed to do, when she has done all he asked, willingly because she loved him (I don't say loves because at this point... idk, I'm not so sure I could say I love my husband if I learned he had been having sex with other women). She even did it when she was physically in pain. So, how is that not considered "trying"?


Endless straw. You simply don't get that incompatibility is... incompatibility. No amount of trying changes that. 

One thing extremely tedious is lack of cognative skills. Like continuing to respond to a comment about incompatibility with "how is that not trying". VERY unattractive in either gender, and a huge sexual turn-off for me. 



> Now, you married a younger woman... surely you can also admit that some younger women don't like sex and some older women like it more? My husband would be in the latter camp... married an older women who likes sex. It has nothing to do with whether you marry younger or older.


Exactly my point. Sexual compatibility has little to do with age. If she is not compatible with you at 19 she sure as heck won't be at 56 either. 

But between the 50-ish year old and the teenager of equal sexual compatibility - I prefer the teen. Porn statistics prove me to be in the vast majority. I doubt your husband had many teens in his choice set. I did. 

-quote]I'd say it's a safe bet that most men would prefer a BJ over a clean bathroom. But there are some men who would be b!tching if there is dust on the bookshelves, even if everything else was done and the wife was taking care of him. Some people (both men and women) just aren't happy unless there is some sort of conflict. 

Sigh... I WISH my husband would scrub the shower.... or take out the trash... or vacuum... or anything, really. Seriously, I'd be happy if even one chore was done by him...even if it was the easiest of them all. [/QUOTE]

I do the vacuuming. We split on garbage, whoever notices. Mom is the Big Boss in whatever moment-to-moment calls have to be made. 

You don't worry too much about appearing Beta when you have my background. If I say too much it will identify me. 

I feel badly for anyone suffering pain and anguish. I don't think it productive though to discount incompatibility, because the result of that is the pain and suffering you see in bad marriage choices. 

I made that bad choice once, so I know.


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## goodwife4 (Jan 7, 2013)

DTO said:


> You're missing the point.
> 
> A woman who likes sex or at least makes it a consistent priority is not Superwoman or some statistical sex freak. She is the NORM!! I can point to my five partners other than my ex, plus the potentials I did not pursue, as strong evidence if not proof.
> 
> ...



do you woner why you had 5 partners. im still with same man 15 yrs married ??


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## goodwife4 (Jan 7, 2013)

i replied to heaps of peoples comments here 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/65847-you-guys-call-switch-but-some-just-life-4.html

top of page 4


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## goodwife4 (Jan 7, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> Convenient that you cut out the part of my post where I said she did everything asked of her. *And that she even had sex when she was in physical pain. **What more is she supposed to do, when she has done all he asked, willingly because she loved him* (I don't say loves because at this point... idk, I'm not so sure I could say I love my husband if I learned he had been having sex with other women). She even did it when she was physically in pain. *So, how is that not considered "trying"?
> *
> 
> Now, you married a younger woman... surely you can also admit that some younger women don't like sex and some older women like it more? My husband would be in the latter camp... married an older women who likes sex. It has nothing to do with whether you marry younger or older.
> ...


i would be happy with this too !

thanks for your comments :smthumbup:


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Disregarding all of that irrelevance, I wonder WHY you felt the need to respond the OP's post with that "younger, prettier wife" comment.


It was relevant to you so long as you thought it could make me out to think of my wife as only a maid and babysitter. But since we are a team sharing the household and child-rearing duties then you consider it irrelevant I guess. 

You are the perfect example of the bait-and-switch. Your fate is that which I described - being replaced by a younger, more beautiful woman who likes sex. Clearly, from your posts, money is the main reason you are putting on the false front. But in the long run you'll get what you deserve. It isn't rude to point that out. More like justice. 



> Good on you for your prodigy kids, I grew up around a lot of them. Most of us turn out to be freaks. Fair warning.


Who are you to warn me? You have no experience on me with the talented and gifted. Your foul mouth is the only prodigious evidence I see from you. 

Ours are not geniuses. They were taught early because we dedicated ourselves to it. 

*Goodwife4* does not seem to be a bait-and-switch problem so much as zero sexual experience before marriage, then the discovery of sexual incompatibility, and (no surprise) sexual incompatibility in the end.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> You just made me cry a little bit, no joke.
> 
> You are an exceptional man. You have been patient, understanding and empathetic.
> 
> ...


People who are unable to admit the truth and who congratulate themselves on fooling a therapist tend to make pretty slow progress.

Being susceptible to hypnosis has nothing to do with strength of mind. My father, who is a globally-respected authority on economics, urban issues and housing, who has published countless articles and books and who is flown around the world by universities such as Cambridge and MIT, is extremely susceptible to hypnosis. It is because he is able to summon focus and concentration deeply and immediately.

Seriously, where do you get this stuff?


----------



## Elk87 (Oct 8, 2012)

*Re: Re: you guys call it "the switch"but is some of it "just life*



LittleBird said:


> You just made me cry a little bit, no joke.
> 
> You are an exceptional man. You have been patient, understanding and empathetic.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the compliment. If your therapy isn't helping, try something else, okay? There is a lot out there if you are brave enough to push on (i know it's frustrating & invasive). Sounds to me like you are plenty strong & brave.


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## Elk87 (Oct 8, 2012)

Another things that sucks? If my marriage ends, my W will blame me & say it ended because I wasn't getting enough sex. Nevermind that I have done all I can to be proactive & sportive in this situation (increasing romance, date nights, open-mind, therapy galore, etc.). And nevermind that this is not the marriage I entered into, or even close. 

When I recently brought up my dissatisfaction, she showed no interest in problem-solving with me & only became angry & defensive, then said I could never be pleased. I replied to that that I was pleased the first several years of marriage & we never had one problem around this issue. Since that last exchange she does not say goodbye to me in the morning (only the kids), doesn't say goodnight either, we have not kissed, held hands or hugged, & no "ILY's."

Anyway, I was likely the victim of B&S, and in the end i'll be made to look like the evil one for ending my marriage because lack of intimacy led to lack of love.

Sorry again to threadjack. Seemed relevant to the topic.


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Lyris said:


> People who are unable to admit the truth and who congratulate themselves on fooling a therapist tend to make pretty slow progress.
> 
> Being susceptible to hypnosis has nothing to do with strength of mind. My father, who is a globally-respected authority on economics, urban issues and housing, who has published countless articles and books and who is flown around the world by universities such as Cambridge and MIT, is extremely susceptible to hypnosis. It is because he is able to summon focus and concentration deeply and immediately.
> 
> Seriously, where do you get this stuff?



Lyris. That hypnosis thing was a JOKE. A. *joke*. Have you ever seen those old cartoons with the big clock? I don't know jack **** about hypnosis. I was ATTEMPTING some humor. 

Not everything I say is part of some complicated plan...I don't even know what.

And just so you know, since my original post, I've told my therapist a lot more.

In fact, I'm cringing at the thought of meeting her today because I do *not* want to talk about what she's going to want to talk about. 

You really don't have to like me. But you don't know me, please keep that in mind.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Anyone who does not meet their spouse's needs risks that their spouse will cheat on them.

If you know what your spouse's needs are, you have to meet them to the best of your ability. If you don't know what your spouse's needs are you have to find out what they are and start meeting them. If your spouse does not meet your needs you have to communcate with them and advocate for your own needs getting met in the marriage.

Do all of this, and you will have a fulfilling marriage and life.


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Wiserforit said:


> Endless straw. You simply don't get that incompatibility is... incompatibility. No amount of trying changes that.
> 
> One thing extremely tedious is lack of cognative skills. Like continuing to respond to a comment about incompatibility with "how is that not trying". VERY unattractive in either gender, and a huge sexual turn-off for me.
> 
> ...


I do the vacuuming. We split on garbage, whoever notices. Mom is the Big Boss in whatever moment-to-moment calls have to be made. 

You don't worry too much about appearing Beta when you have my background. If I say too much it will identify me. 

I feel badly for anyone suffering pain and anguish. I don't think it productive though to discount incompatibility, because the result of that is the pain and suffering you see in bad marriage choices. 

I made that bad choice once, so I know.[/QUOTE]

When you said, "you prefer the teen" I just shivered a little bit. I know you didn't mean it literally, so don't start. 

Everyone can suffer and anyone can suffer. It's not exclusive to who you believe is right.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Wiserforit said:


> It was relevant to you so long as you thought it could make me out to think of my wife as only a maid and babysitter. But since we are a team sharing the household and child-rearing duties then you consider it irrelevant I guess.
> 
> You are the perfect example of the bait-and-switch. Your fate is that which I described - being replaced by a younger, more beautiful woman who likes sex. Clearly, from your posts, money is the main reason you are putting on the false front. But in the long run you'll get what you deserve. It isn't rude to point that out. More like justice.
> 
> ...


OH MY GOD DO YOU NOT LIKE ME?

I am in utter shock. 

You don't know my fate. 

And I do wonder where you get your high horse from. Divorcing your wife and marrying a younger, better looking girl who loves sex (or at least something she gets out of that sex)...where have I heard that before? Ever read a tabloid? 

Nobody knows my fate but God and considering that I'm taking active steps to change it, I sure as heck pray I don't end up like you.

That is...divorced.

And clearly bitter at any woman who expresses the slightest inkling of low drive, hesitation, whatever you want to call it. 

Look, you don't have to like me. 

But the world has affirmed a few things about me- one of them is that, despite it all, I'm quite bright. And whether you see it or not, rather good natured. And I love my fiancé. You believing that or not believing that does not change the fact that I have him and my whole life ahead of me. 

So take your judgement. Take it off and do with it what you will.

I'm going to be just fine.


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

monkeyboy said:


> Thanks for the compliment. If your therapy isn't helping, try something else, okay? There is a lot out there if you are brave enough to push on (i know it's frustrating & invasive). Sounds to me like you are plenty strong & brave.


People seem to think it is my rectrational hobby not to progress in therapy. First of all, I made very sure to find a therapist smarter than I am. Which believe it or not, was hard, considering there are sooooooo many cereal-box therapists out there these days. My college roommate wants to be a therapist...she is the dumbest girl I've ever met. Astonishing how she got into any college, let alone an Ivy League school. I feel bad for whoever she gets her hands on. But back to the point...

Nothing excuses what your wife is doing to you.

But for what it's worth, it isn't ALWAYS a bait and switch.

Sometimes people can be fine for years. 6. 10. 20.

And then they just shut off. This process is a lot harder to prevent than to undo. 

If she is anything like me, it does not mean she doesn't love you. I love my fiancé very, very much and I would stand by him regardless. 

I really do think it is unfair to expect people who have an aversion to sex to just curl up in a hole and die because they are fundamentally evil creatures who either don't have sex, have duty sex, or have "love" sex not based in physical pleasure (which some people think is just as wrong.)

It doesn't mean they don't deserve to have a mate or a family. Or to be happy. They can still be good people. It's unfortunate. In my experience, most abuse victims don't turn out to be dastardly sociopaths. They just want to be loved...and often go about it in misguided ways. It's more sad than anything else. 

But at the end of the day, I am sorry for what happened to you because it isn't fair. 

I hope you two can work it out.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

LittleBird said:


> I really do think it is unfair to expect people who have an aversion to sex to just curl up in a hole and die because they are fundamentally evil creatures who either don't have sex, have duty sex, or have "love" sex not based in physical pleasure (which some people think is just as wrong.)
> 
> It doesn't mean they don't deserve to have a mate or a family. Or to be happy. They can still be good people.


That is why, you will see many people in this forum advise LD people marry another LD people, to ensure sexual frequency compatibility.

Nothing wrong being LD. But what is wrong is for an LD to appear like ND (normal drive) or even HD, and suddenly turn LD. That's bait and switch, especially when premeditated.

If all LD's in the world marry another LD's, there won't be any arguing about LD vs HD.

In fact, I could imagine the dialogue between LD couples. 
"Aisha, when was the last time we had sex?" 
"Ahmed, I think about 3 years ago" 
"Ah, I lost count. But I am still not in the mood" 
"So do I, Ahmed" 
"Good, let us talk about this maybe 3 laters.." 
"That does the trick, Ahmed"


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

john_lord_b3 said:


> That is why, you will see many people in this forum advise LD people marry another LD people, to ensure sexual frequency compatibility.
> 
> Nothing wrong being LD. But what is wrong is for an LD to appear like ND (normal drive) or even HD, and suddenly turn LD. That's bait and switch, especially when premeditated.
> 
> ...


And what if the only person you love, or have ever loved, is HD?

Walk away from that because of sex?

Sad. 

There has to be another way.


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Wiserforit said:


> Endless straw. You simply don't get that incompatibility is... incompatibility. No amount of trying changes that.


Contrary to your opinion, I do understand the concept of incompatibility. My only concern was the fact that GW's husband requested changes, which she gladly made, and it was not enough for him that she did these things for him, at his request. How is that insignificant to the point that, in his mind, it negates the need to be faithful? Before you throw out "endless straw" yet again, how about paying attention to the fact that he used these as his excuse for cheating on her. As stated before, she is trying to get answers, when there really are none. 



Wiserforit said:


> One thing extremely tedious is lack of cognative skills. Like continuing to respond to a comment about incompatibility with "how is that not trying". VERY unattractive in either gender, and a huge sexual turn-off for me.


So, now I lack cognitive skills because one man cannot seem to comprehend that just because HE sees this whole situation as sexual incompatibility does not necessarily make it so? I have to say, I really couldn't care less if something I say or do is a sexual turn-off for you. What does or does not turn you on is of no significance to me. 





Wiserforit said:


> Exactly my point. Sexual compatibility has little to do with age. If she is not compatible with you at 19 she sure as heck won't be at 56 either.
> 
> But between the 50-ish year old and the teenager of equal sexual compatibility - I prefer the teen. Porn statistics prove me to be in the vast majority. I doubt your husband had many teens in his choice set. I did.


I do agree that if incompatible early on, it is highly unlikely that you will be later. 

My husband was 17 when we met. He did date other teens in high school. He wasn't looking for a relationship when we met, nor was I. And he certainly wasn't looking to date an older woman...well, maybe he was.

Porn statistics mean nothing to me, sorry.



Wiserforit said:


> I do the vacuuming. We split on garbage, whoever notices. Mom is the Big Boss in whatever moment-to-moment calls have to be made.


Your wife is fortunate to have a man who will help out. Not all women are this fortunate. Now, I know I said I would be happy if my husband did even one chore. I can't say he NEVER does anything... once in awhile, he will vacuum. Occasionally (and that doesn't mean once a week or more often) he will do dishes. Otherwise, it falls to me and the kids. Still, I'm the one wanting sex more often.



Wiserforit said:


> You don't worry too much about appearing Beta when you have my background. If I say too much it will identify me.


If you are a confident man in ANY background, you don't worry about the alpha/beta nonsense.



Wiserforit said:


> I feel badly for anyone suffering pain and anguish. I don't think it productive though to discount incompatibility, because the result of that is the pain and suffering you see in bad marriage choices.
> 
> I made that bad choice once, so I know.


I don't think it productive to discount incompatibility either. But if one is unhappy to the point that he or she is even considering cheating, something needs to be done to bridge that gap or find an alternative that both can agree on, rather than one making a unilateral decision that affects both.


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

honeysuckle rose said:


> This is EXACTLY what I was saying w/ my Good Enuf thread. People change. It's not always a bait & switch. Not all women are chomping at the bit for sex ever day. Bcuz you want it less (or not at all years later) doesnt make you a horrible woman, if you service him (waiting for the arrows!) enthusiastically & w/ love BCUZ you love him. That's not duty sex.
> 
> Normal is different for everbody. You have to meet in the middle AND not get pissy bcuz your SO doesn't have YOUR specific desire for however much sex. Geesh.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry dear, but this does not fly. You changed because of all the crap he put you through, not because of life. Yet you stay around him, putting yourself through hell. And for some reason you have been using this experience as a way to justify that people change and less sex is normal and expected for women. Your life experience just does not support that.


----------



## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

yellowledbet said:


> I really think the bait and switch is rare. I think it is more likely that everyone puts their best foot forward at the beginning of a relationship. As life and responsibilities change there is not enough time or energy to balance everything plus act like newly weds.


I think that may be true in that few people go into it thinking I'll do X until we get married then stop. However I think there is an element of a person working harder when they're uncertain about the relationship (i.e. dating, possibly having competition) then no longer trying once they're married and taking it for granted the other person won't leave when they stop. 

With weight loss you can't diet until you get to your target weight then stop. You have to maintain the healthy food choices and make it a lifestyle to keep the weight off. It's similar with marriage. You can't behave a certain way then stop once you get there. You have to continue doing the things you did for your partner that you did to get them in the first place.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Sorry dear, but this does not fly. You changed because of all the crap he put you through, not because of life. Yet you stay around him, putting yourself through hell. And for some reason you have been using this experience as a way to justify that people change and less sex is normal and expected for women. Your life experience just does not support that.


:scratchhead:

I don't think this is what the OP meant at all.

Less sex, as long as it's not a drastic reduction (The OP mentioned 2-3 times a week in her case) tends to happen with life. And before you tell me I'm full of it, this is pretty much statistics. There is normally an ebb and flow with sex, depending on what else is going on. 

Of course someone is going to go "That didn't happen to me". 

Well, great good for you. But if we took a poll of 100 married couples and asked them how many of them were having just as much sex as they used to, before kids, work...whatever...I'm pretty sure that would back up the OP's argument.

No one is trying to justify chronic refusal, here. Neither is the OP. 

She did nothing wrong. She didn't pull a bait and switch.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

MaritimeGuy said:


> I think that may be true in that few people go into it thinking I'll do X until we get married then stop. However I think there is an element of a person working harder when they're uncertain about the relationship (i.e. dating, possibly having competition) then no longer trying once they're married and taking it for granted the other person won't leave when they stop.
> 
> With weight loss you can't diet until you get to your target weight then stop. You have to maintain the healthy food choices and make it a lifestyle to keep the weight off. It's similar with marriage. You can't behave a certain way then stop once you get there. You have to continue doing the things you did for your partner that you did to get them in the first place.


:iagree::iagree:

Very few people sit down and plot their evil plan to stop sex. 

Very few people think "I'm not going to bring her flowers anymore". It just happens.

Normally, there is something behind the sex issue. That's the most important thing to address. The sex is a smoke screen for something way bigger.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

LittleBird said:


> And what if the only person you love, or have ever loved, is HD?
> 
> Walk away from that because of sex?
> 
> ...


Eh.. are you asking a general advice applicable to most people, or are you asking a specific advice for you? Because you're, eh, a different case altogether.

I have known HD-LD couples that made it work quite nicely, and have discovered their secret to achieve compatibility. But their way, I think, won't work on your case.


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> :scratchhead:
> 
> I don't think this is what the OP meant at all.


Well, I was responding to HSR. Her lack of desire to have sex has almost nothing to do with "real life" and everything to do with him being a awful person to her. To use it as evidence of the former is wrong.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

john_lord_b3 said:


> Eh.. are you asking a general advice applicable to most people, or are you asking a specific advice for you? Because you're, eh, a different case altogether.
> 
> I have known HD-LD couples that made it work quite nicely, and have discovered their secret to achieve compatibility. But their way, I think, won't work on your case.


Oh, no, not me. 

But I think in general it can work.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Well, I was responding to HSR. Her lack of desire to have sex has almost nothing to do with "real life" and everything to do with him being a awful person to her. To use it as evidence of the former is wrong.


I simply responded based on the information presented.


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> I really do think it is unfair to expect people who have an aversion to sex to just curl up in a hole and die because they are fundamentally evil creatures who either don't have sex, have duty sex, or have "love" sex not based in physical pleasure (which some people think is just as wrong.)
> 
> It doesn't mean they don't deserve to have a mate or a family. Or to be happy. They can still be good people. It's unfortunate. In my experience, most abuse victims don't turn out to be dastardly sociopaths. They just want to be loved...and often go about it in misguided ways. It's more sad than anything else.


You do love those strawmen. Arguing is so much easier when you can respond to a charicture rather than a real argument.

No one said those with an aversion to sex should die alone or without someone to love them. But they should not enter into a relationship under false pretenses or willfully blind. Rather, they should either seek out a partner who also does not like sex, or get the help they need to enjoy sex. 

At the end of the day, you control yourself. If you have been abused, that does not give you carte blanche to treat others poorly, or be selfish and look out only for yourself in a relationship. You have a duty to work on yourself.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> You do love those strawmen. Arguing is so much easier when you can respond to a charicture rather than a real argument.
> 
> No one said those with an aversion to sex should die alone or without someone to love them. But they should not enter into a relationship under false pretenses or willfully blind. Rather, they should either seek out a partner who also does not like sex, or get the help they need to enjoy sex.
> 
> At the end of the day, you control yourself. If you have been abused, that does not give you carte blanche to treat others poorly, or be selfish and look out only for yourself in a relationship. You have a duty to work on yourself.


For God's sake. 

Nobody was using that to refute anything that was said by either you or the OP.

I was trying to offer some insight into another poster's dilemma and you are taking what I said out of context and making it into something it was NOT mean to be.

It isn't meant to be a justification, I was simply trying to explain my and possibly her feelings on the matter. 

If you actually read the rest of it, I clearly stated it was NOT a justification, rather a possible vantage point.


----------



## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

john_lord_b3 said:


> :smthumbup: It is better to have great sex 3 times a week than have unfullfilling sex everyday!


How about great sex three times a week and unfulfilling sex on the off days?


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

monkeyboy said:


> Another things that sucks? If my marriage ends, my W will blame me & say it ended because I wasn't getting enough sex. Nevermind that I have done all I can to be proactive & sportive in this situation (increasing romance, date nights, open-mind, therapy galore, etc.). And nevermind that this is not the marriage I entered into, or even close.
> 
> When I recently brought up my dissatisfaction, she showed no interest in problem-solving with me & only became angry & defensive, then said I could never be pleased. I replied to that that I was pleased the first several years of marriage & we never had one problem around this issue. Since that last exchange she does not say goodbye to me in the morning (only the kids), doesn't say goodnight either, we have not kissed, held hands or hugged, & no "ILY's."
> 
> ...


You are not at fault.

I'm sorry to hear that this happened to your marriage. 

For me, there is a difference between lack of sex and just total lack of any intimacy at all.

I'm not a fan of sex but I am always touching my fiancé, kissing him, telling him I love him, groping him...(yes, I am a groper).

Which is why, even though I'm not a fan, I can mange to do it very frequently because the other elements of intimacy is there.

If you can re-instate those things, maybe the sex will follow?

I know if I didn't get those things, I'd not want to have sex and probably wouldn't. 

I could be way off but again, I'm just trying to help. 

Best wishes.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

LittleBird said:


> Oh, no, not me.
> 
> But I think in general it can work.


Yes, I know of several of successful LD+HD marriages, and none of them involves HD sacrificing or downplaying her/his needs, nor LD feels compelled to do something he/she doesn't enjoy.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> And what if the only person you love, or have ever loved, is HD?
> 
> Walk away from that because of sex?
> 
> ...


There is another way. It requires the HD person to have endless patience, and allow the LD person's lack of desire to prevail over their high desire. 

Not everyone can make that lifelong sacrifice, even for love.


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

jaquen said:


> There is another way. It requires the HD person to have endless patience, and allow the LD person's lack of desire to prevail over their high desire.
> 
> Not everyone can make that lifelong sacrifice, even for love.


Compromise is always best....nobody should have to suffer.

I certainly don't want that.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

MaritimeGuy said:


> How about great sex three times a week and unfulfilling sex on the off days?


That would've been great when I was young, but these days I'd rather save energy for the 3/7 days 

But yes, use it well while you're young. Youth is like diamond in the sun, it will melts away over time.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

MaritimeGuy said:


> With weight loss you can't diet until you get to your target weight then stop. You have to maintain the healthy food choices and make it a lifestyle to keep the weight off. It's similar with marriage. You can't behave a certain way then stop once you get there. You have to continue doing the things you did for your partner that you did to get them in the first place.


That is a _very_ good analogy.


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## romantic_guy (Nov 8, 2011)

MaritimeGuy said:


> How about great sex three times a week and unfulfilling sex on the off days?


Actually, we are going to start doing something like this. We talked about it the other day and she is perfectly willing to have sex more often if I don't expect her to orgasm every time. If she is too tired she is perfectly willing for me to go ahead. Also, she is willing to give me more hand jobs (and wow, does she really know how to give them). We'll see what happens.


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## goodwife4 (Jan 7, 2013)

also i would just like to state that even though hubby and i did not have sex before marriage, he was married before for 5 years and i had been in 3 relationships where we lived together and had sex also...... one man who never wanted it and i was always asking him for it ?!.... yes they do exsist.... he was also a druggie too 

and i knew how to get myself to O every time during sex from lots of experimental positons and fun...
i was with one guy for 2 years and we only separated around 1.5 years before my marriage to hubby,,,, just didnt work out..... anyway we had great sex and lots of it and i always enjoyed it... bu i had no kids then and he did not complain about everything I did not do to his standard.

i think one of the issues i have and i am coming to realize now is that i tried every day to do something, more than one thing to make sure his love language of touch was fulfilled.....

but he did not do what i needed and if anything the constant complaining was like a blow every time to my love for him 

... just saying


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

jaquen said:


> There is another way. It requires the HD person to have endless patience, and allow the LD person's lack of desire to prevail over their high desire.
> 
> Not everyone can make that lifelong sacrifice, even for love.


It's a choice no small number of us here have made. 

There are lots of faults a spouse can have. Drinking, gambling, lack of intimacy, money problems, you name it. Very few people get a spouse without some personal failing that frustrates their partner. HD + LD is just one more in a long list of marital incongruities that we manage in real life. 

But it doesn't mean we don't wind up here crying on someone else's shoulder once in a while.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Compromise is always best....nobody should have to suffer.
> 
> I certainly don't want that.


Compromise is everyone suffering a little for the overall benefit of the relationship, instead of one partner doing all of the suffering. Of course, it also means everyone getting a little of the joy from getting their way once in a while.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Cletus said:


> It's a choice no small number of us here have made.
> 
> There are lots of faults a spouse can have. Drinking, gambling, lack of intimacy, money problems, you name it. Very few people get a spouse without some personal failing that frustrates their partner. HD + LD is just one more in a long list of marital incongruities that we manage in real life.


I believe, if the love is really there, if the LD partner really love his/her partner and vice versa, then I am sure the effort to enjoy sex with her/him is much less painful, and much easier, than having to deal with hard issues such as drinking, gambling, etc. And, if the magic of the love is still there, even the LD partner could somehow get in tune, get in the mood of the partner, and enjoy the sex as much as the HD partner. 

As we are getting older, our libido and stamina is going down in a constant rate. But if our spouses is able to get us in the mood, then as long as it is still physically possible (if erection and penetration still possible), why not get in the rhythm and do it? Enjoy it while still possible. One day we will be so old/so ill that sex is no longer possible. It is important to recognize this fact and enjoy what we have for as long as possible.


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## romantic_guy (Nov 8, 2011)

Cletus said:


> Compromise is everyone suffering a little for the overall benefit of the relationship, instead of one partner doing all of the suffering. Of course, it also means everyone getting a little of the joy from getting their way once in a while.


I don't see compromise as suffering. In fact, it can be a win-win...that is if both partners are compromising. I also see it as an act of love.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

romantic_guy said:


> I don't see compromise as suffering. In fact, it can be a win-win...that is if both partners are compromising. I also see it as an act of love.


Compromise had me sitting with the wife through Les Mis last week.

It was pure, unadulterated suffering for the greater cause.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Cletus said:


> Compromise had me sitting with the wife through Les Mis last week.
> 
> It was pure, unadulterated suffering for the greater cause.


It wasn't THAT bad...

Granted, my wife says I'm a gay man who just happens to be addicted to boobs...

So...Look DOWN! Look DOWN!....


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

JCD said:


> It wasn't THAT bad...
> 
> Granted, my wife says I'm a gay man who just happens to be addicted to boobs...
> 
> So...Look DOWN! Look DOWN!....


We have season tickets to all of the Broadway musicals - and I love 'em. Just saw "Book of Mormon" a couple of weeks ago. 

But three hours of Russel Crowe singing dialog had me looking for a sharp object to jam into my ears, even if a couple of shots of Tequila would have me admitting that Hathaway is da bomb.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. Compromise when you're not very far apart is easy. Compromise when you're far apart can involve sacrifice. Sacrifice might overall be good for the marriage, but there is DEFINITELY some suffering involved if you're doing it right. Just like she usually suffers when I make her try something new in the bedroom.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Cletus said:


> We have season tickets to all of the Broadway musicals - and I love 'em. Just saw "Book of Mormon" a couple of weeks ago.
> 
> But three hours of Russel Crowe singing dialog had me looking for a sharp object to jam into my ears, even if a couple of shots of Tequila would have me admitting that Hathaway is da bomb.
> 
> Anyway, back to the topic at hand. Compromise when you're not very far apart is easy. Compromise when you're far apart can involve sacrifice. Sacrifice might overall be good for the marriage, but there is DEFINITELY some suffering involved if you're doing it right. Just like she usually suffers when I make her try something new in the bedroom.


Sigh...you HAD to bring up Russell Crowe...yeah...find me that ice pick too...

It was a brave attempt. Note I didn't say a GOOD attempt...

Diplomacy: the art of leaving both parties mutually dissatisfied.

One could say the same of marriage...but the good bits are VERY good.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

romantic_guy said:


> I don't see compromise as suffering. In fact, it can be a win-win...that is if both partners are compromising. I also see it as an act of love.


Agreed.


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## keethytheseeker (Dec 1, 2012)

BAIT AND SWITCH 
The research into ‘human needs’ always lists ‘sex’ and ‘sexual intimacy’ alongside such things as ‘food and water’ and ‘family relationships’. It’s accepted that ‘sexual intimacy’ is as basic a need as all the other needs that keep us alive and happy. In societies where ‘romantic love’ is the basis for choosing a mate, it is assumed that a sexual relationship will be maintained. The reality for many of us is different. Usually the blame for the failure of sexual intimacy after marriage is blamed on the woman. Actually, the figures for hypoactive sexual desire disorder (lack of interest in sex) are 32% women / 14% men. Reasons for the onset of women’s lack of sexual interest after marriage include: the sheer hard work involved in running a home and a career, and the devastating effect on hormone balance wrought by the contraceptive pill (the early versions anyway) and childbirth. (How many husbands understand the seriousness of postpartum depression?) If these early stages of marriage are handled badly, they can be sources of resentment and estrangement for ever more. How to avoid such a situation? Education? There must be a way a civilised, rational society can communicate a more realistic set of expectations. Maybe we should start by accepting that a ‘need’ is not necessarily a ‘right’.


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## romantic_guy (Nov 8, 2011)

Cletus said:


> Compromise had me sitting with the wife through Les Mis last week.
> 
> It was pure, unadulterated suffering for the greater cause.


No compromise for me. I cried right along with her just like I did the three times we have seen the stage version.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

keethytheseeker said:


> BAIT AND SWITCH
> The research into ‘human needs’ always lists ‘sex’ and ‘sexual intimacy’ alongside such things as ‘food and water’ and ‘family relationships’. It’s accepted that ‘sexual intimacy’ is as basic a need as all the other needs that keep us alive and happy. In societies where ‘romantic love’ is the basis for choosing a mate, it is assumed that a sexual relationship will be maintained. The reality for many of us is different. Usually the blame for the failure of sexual intimacy after marriage is blamed on the woman. Actually, the figures for hypoactive sexual desire disorder (lack of interest in sex) are 32% women / 14% men. Reasons for the onset of women’s lack of sexual interest after marriage include: the sheer hard work involved in running a home and a career, and the devastating effect on hormone balance wrought by the contraceptive pill (the early versions anyway) and childbirth. (How many husbands understand the seriousness of postpartum depression?) If these early stages of marriage are handled badly, they can be sources of resentment and estrangement for ever more. How to avoid such a situation? Education? There must be a way a civilised, rational society can communicate a more realistic set of expectations. Maybe we should start by accepting that a ‘need’ is not necessarily a ‘right’.


:scratchhead: And so, does your post means that all these poor sexless husbands in this forum who has been denied sex by their wives, must accept the fact that their sexual needs is not necessarily a 'right?' Despite the fact that many of these husbands has been denied sex for YEARS? Some has never even CONSUMMATED their marriage.. And yet their need is not necessarily a 'right'?

These threads below has just come out TODAY...there are literally DOZENS of likewise stories IN THIS FORUM ALONE...imagine how many in other forums...

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-ma...-effort-her-part-resentfullness-building.html

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/66138-sexless-marriage-boomerang.html

And these poor men must accept that their sexual need is not a 'right'?


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

keethytheseeker said:


> Maybe we should start by accepting that a ‘need’ is not necessarily a ‘right’.


"We" do not need to accept that. People who feel this way genuinely need to accept that, and be honest with their partners accordingly.

But not everyone believes in this view. Neither my wife, nor me, adheres to this. We certainly believe a mutually fulfilling sex life is a "right" of marriage. And it's good that we both believe this, and live our life accordingly.

This, as many things, comes down to compatibility. Don't marry somebody who views sex as a basic marital right if you do not.


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

jaquen said:


> "We" do not need to accept that. People who feel this way genuinely need to accept that, and be honest with their partners accordingly.
> 
> But not everyone believes in this view. Neither my wife, nor me, adheres to this. We certainly believe a mutually fulfilling sex life is a "right" of marriage. And it's good that we both believe this, and live our life accordingly.
> 
> This, as many things, comes down to compatibility. Don't marry somebody who views sex as a basic marital right if you do not.


Saying "I have a right to your vagina, woman" is not likely to solve any problems.

Be that as it may, it is hardly diplomatic in terms of having a conversation to SOLVE the problem.

But I do agree it is a reasonable expectation of marriage. 

I wouldn't use the word right...that sounds a little too medieval for me.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

LittleBird said:


> Saying "I have a right to your vagina, woman" is not likely to solve any problems.


Ok, let's role-play then. Suppose you're a man wishing to have sex with his chronically-refusing wife. What line would you be using? 



> Be that as it may, it is hardly diplomatic in terms of having a conversation to SOLVE the problem.


Yes, your line above is not diplomatic, but are they being used often? I am sure these poor sexless guys in these threads below

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-ma...-effort-her-part-resentfullness-building.html

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/66138-sexless-marriage-boomerang.html

never use your "I have a right to your vagina, woman" line as well.

Besides, while the husband has 'rights to access and exclusive use' to the wife's vagina, LD people often conveniently forgot that the wife also has the same 'rights to access and exclusive use' to the husband's penis. It is an equal rights. It is not an inequal treaty.



> But I do agree it is a reasonable expectation of marriage.


For some religious people in certain countries, it is the main reason to get married. 

In some cultures, people who does not acknowledge the 'rights' for spouses to have sexual relations within their marriage, with all due respect, should not get married.



> I wouldn't use the word right...that sounds a little too medieval for me.


the institution of marriage has been around before the medieval times, and yes, _rights_ to sexual intercourse within marriage has _always_ been part of it. 

Why it must stop being part of a marriage in this modern times?

Wanting to be married, but does not acknowledge sexual intercourse amongst spouses as a _right_, I think, is a mockery of the marital institution itself.

What should be made more clear, is that *the rights to sexual satisfaction within a marriage does not equal sexual slavery*. It is not "I want you to get hard/get wet NOW, RIGHT NOW" all the times. 

If it is a physical impossibility for one spouse to satisfy his/her partner due to legitimate reasons such as medical problems, total physical exhaustion (often happened to me) and duties for the country (always happened to me), then that should be respected. 

*But those reasons above should never become grounds for chronic refusal or infrequent sex*. The partner with medical problems, with full support from her/his partner, should make every effort necessary to get well. The partner whom are always exhausted due to work/housework/whatever, must make every effort to make it up with his/her refusal in another day, another time, as soon as possible. 

When I am away from my wife (which is five days in a week for almost a decade now), I always make sure she does not feel neglected. I'd call her, text her, send her favorite food, etc. Even though we are physically far, but we are close at heart. And at weekends my time is totally for my wife and child. I gave my life 5 days a week for my country, but the remaining 2 days should be for my wife and child.

So many times I came home totally exhausted and physically unable to perform, due to 2.5 hours of traffic I must pass through (on motorbike) to go from my city to hers. Maybe at that night we don't have sex. But in the morning, when I am feeling better, we always find time to do it, usually when our child is taking a daytime nap, or later at night, when our child is sleeping. 

Off course, there were times when my wife does not want to be denied, and want me to get hard right here right now. That's what energy drinks are for (although I won't use it too often.. too many side effects..).


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Saying "I have a right to your vagina, woman" is not likely to solve any problems.
> 
> Be that as it may, it is hardly diplomatic in terms of having a conversation to SOLVE the problem.
> 
> ...


We are parting ways on this one, Littlebird.

Here is the deal: Marriage means that the spouses are insisting on a sexual monopoly. The only vagina I'm allowed to use is that of my wife, legally and morally.

Taking your words to even a small extreme and it seems that the spouse can arbitrarily cut off services at whim, leaving the other spouse with what recourse? Divorce? Infidelity? A life of porn and Jergens?

I know you are quibbling about the terms, but the principles are, at least for me, clear. We have this sad sack who just posted here and is talking about 15 years of a sexless marriage because his wife won't fix a vaginal condition which is EASILY FIXABLE without surgery.

Where did that leave him? Jerking off in a bathroom, I guess. That isn't love as I would define it.

So sorry, but we lose a certain amount of 'rights' to our body when we marry...at least without facing the consequences of violating the deal. It seems a lot of women don't want to face that.

I can't blame them because the men are allowing it. They should walk away.


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

JCD said:


> We are parting ways on this one, Littlebird.
> 
> Here is the deal: Marriage means that the spouses are insisting on a sexual monopoly. The only vagina I'm allowed to use is that of my wife, legally and morally.
> 
> ...


As someone who has had the "right" to protect my body/vagina/dignity ignored multiple times, I just don't like the word right.

That conjures images of a drunken man stumbling towards me and saying "I bed thee woman, strip to thy skivvies. You're my wife and I bought you with three pigs and a cow, so open up the glory hole."

I agree with your reasoning but I hate the word. 

You have the right to expect sex in a marriage. Or else nobody would get married. You sign up for monogamy, not celibacy. 

But you don't have the right to just go get it whenever you feel like it. This isn't Walmart.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> As someone who has had the "right" to protect my body/vagina/dignity ignored multiple times, I just don't like the word right.
> 
> That conjures images of a drunken man stumbling towards me and saying "I bed thee woman, strip to thy skivvies. You're my wife and I bought you with three pigs and a cow, so open up the glory hole."
> 
> ...


Consideration for your spouse SHOULD be a given...both ways.

For some men (and more women it seems) it's a one way street.

So I can agree with that.

If Walmart sold the way some spouses dole out sex, they'd be out of business.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Saying "I have a right to your vagina, woman" is not likely to solve any problems.


I wouldn't have a need to. Our communication is bit more evolved than that.

Well, typically. My wife can be caught, from time to time, telling me that my jimmy is "hers". 



LittleBird said:


> Be that as it may, it is hardly diplomatic in terms of having a conversation to SOLVE the problem.


That depends on the marriage. If two people mutually decided, before marriage, that sex was paramount to them both, and was an entitlement within their marriage, than yes reminding a refusing partner about the agreement is necessary.

That, however, won't work for couples who didn't bother to iron these things out prior to marriage.



LittleBird said:


> But I do agree it is a reasonable expectation of marriage.


Absolutely.



LittleBird said:


> I wouldn't use the word right...that sounds a little too medieval for me.


Meh, that language works for us. We don't have any problem stating that marital sex is a right, and an entitlement, for us both. We didn't get married, and vow fidelity, and monogamy, in the hopes of making love. 

We did it with the expectation, the right, to marital sex.


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## goodwife4 (Jan 7, 2013)

john_lord_b3 said:


> :scratchhead: And so, does your post means that all these poor sexless husbands in this forum who has been denied sex by their wives, must accept the fact that their sexual needs is *not necessarily a 'right?'*
> 
> a right ??? what are women/ wives slaves to mens sexual desires ??
> 
> ...





LittleBird said:


> As someone who has had the "right" to protect my body/vagina/dignity ignored multiple times, I just don't like the word right.
> 
> That conjures images of a drunken man stumbling towards me and saying "I bed thee woman, strip to thy skivvies. You're my wife and I bought you with three pigs and a cow, so open up the glory hole."
> *this is how i felt a lot of the time !!*
> ...





jaquen said:


> I wouldn't have a need to. Our communication is bit more evolved than that.
> 
> That depends on the marriage. If two people mutually decided, before marriage, that sex was paramount to them both, and was an entitlement within their marriage, than yes reminding a refusing partner about the agreement is necessary.
> 
> ...




the thing is my hubby complained that the sex changed and i stopped making moves half the time, he didnt think about the 100's of jobs i was doing or that i had a sick child who never slept ( hence neither did i )
he just said wheres my sex and youre not trying hard enough..............

who cares if i am not a supportive husband, who cares if i dont help with the kids much, who cares if i only fulfill your love language maybe 1 every 2 months or so after youve asked me to do it..

... who cares about you 

all i care about are my needs so now i am going to be unfaithful bacause i just dont care about you 

at all

>?????????????


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

goodwife4 said:


> the thing is my hubby complained that the sex changed and i stopped making moves half the time, he didnt think about the 100's of jobs i was doing or that i had a sick child who never slept ( hence neither did i )
> he just said wheres my sex and youre not trying hard enough..............


Referring to my post here http://talkaboutmarriage.com/1390211-post132.html

I said : 



> What should be made more clear, is that *the rights to sexual satisfaction within a marriage does not equal sexual slavery. It is not "I want you to get hard/get wet NOW, RIGHT NOW" all the times.
> 
> If it is a physical impossibility for one spouse to satisfy his/her partner due to legitimate reasons such as medical problems, total physical exhaustion (often happened to me) and duties for the country (always happened to me), then that should be respected. *
> 
> But those reasons above should never become grounds for chronic refusal or infrequent sex. The partner with medical problems, with full support from her/his partner, should make every effort necessary to get well. The partner whom are always exhausted due to work/housework/whatever, must make every effort to make it up with his/her refusal in another day, another time, as soon as possible.


I hope I make myself clear there, that sexual satisfaction within marriage is a _right_ but does not imply a kind of slavery. It is an _equal rights_ not an unequal treaty.



goodwife4 said:


> who cares if i am not a supportive husband, who cares if i dont help with the kids much, who cares if i only fulfill your love language maybe 1 every 2 months or so after youve asked me to do it..
> 
> ... who cares about you
> 
> ...


Nobody sympathizes with your husband here, and we're all agree that what he did was WRONG. Infidelity is always wrong, whatever the reason was. Just like chronic withholding of sex is also wrong. There's no argument there.

You're talking about _specific_ bad things happened in _your_marriage, and we're truly sympathizing with your plight. All of us deserves happines, and your husband clearly wasn't doing his part to make you happy.

However, in my post(s) above, I wasn't specifically talking about _your_ situation. I was talking about _these_ poor gentlemen:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-ma...-effort-her-part-resentfullness-building.html

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/66138-sexless-marriage-boomerang.html


Your pain was/is real, but what these gentlemen has felt is also _real_. Your hurting does not make their pain any less legitimate than yours.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

hmmm does all this mean I can't tell my SO "I have a right to use your penis." ?
 sad now


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> hmmm does all this mean I can't tell my SO "I have a right to use your penis." ?
> sad now


Eh  well I hope your husband does not think it's a 'sexual slavery' to give you rights of exclusive access and utilization of his penis.. After all, you gave him exclusive access and utilization of your vagina, right? 

equal rights... what a concept!


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

john_lord_b3 said:


> Eh  well I hope your husband does not think it's a 'sexual slavery' to give you rights of exclusive access and utilization of his penis.. After all, you gave him exclusive access and utilization of your vagina, right?
> 
> equal rights... what a concept!


We aren't married but he still gets exclusive access and utilization of my vagina and the rest of my body
I think he might like being my sex slave,I'll ask him


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## keethytheseeker (Dec 1, 2012)

A lot of this fraught controversy might be due to a cultural change in social attitudes. There was a time of ‘conjugal rights’ when a man virtually owned his wife as a piece of property. This, of course, gave him the right to sex on demand. We’ve moved on, haven’t we? Most of the responses on this forum talk of ‘mutual agreement’ arising from a loving relationship. Women have now claimed the right to full control of their own bodies. What is needed is for all our social values and practices to move on together at the same pace. For example, ‘pre-nuptial agreements’. How many of us know what awaits us in the marital home when we settle to the business of life? As Goodwife4 says. Surely, in a rational society, some agreement about such things as sharing the domestic work burden, child-rearing and, of course, sexual intimacy could be reached. These ‘agreements’ need not be too specific, just a declaration of attitudes. But done with our families, in the presence of a counsellor, might give those about to embark on marriage a better idea of what to expect.


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

Spoken like a true European. Why isn't there a dislike button? Maybe mommy government should draw up some marriage contracts and pick our partners too???


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

frustr8dhubby said:


> Spoken like a true European. Why isn't there a dislike button? Maybe mommy government should draw up some marriage contracts and pick our partners too???


And what would an American write? Don't go into a marriage unarmed?


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

Actually I do kind of like that.. But fair point I probably should have said liberal mind set vs. European. Let's legislate everything...


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## thinkingDivorce (Jan 16, 2013)

[/QUOTE]To prove my point... do a little test. When he comes home from work one night give him some good sex out of the blue and tell him you love him WHILE you're doing it. Now see if in the next few hours or days he doesn't try to give back to you somehow to provide for your needs. (p.s....he needs to know what your needs are). If he doesn't do this then he's a bum and he needs some educating.[/QUOTE]

Man...what i wouldnt give to be tested like that. Wish my wife could see this.


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

To prove my point... do a little test. When he comes home from work one night give him some good sex out of the blue and tell him you love him WHILE you're doing it. Now see if in the next few hours or days he doesn't try to give back to you somehow to provide for your needs. (p.s....he needs to know what your needs are). If he doesn't do this then he's a bum and he needs some educating.[/QUOTE]

Man...what i wouldnt give to be tested like that. Wish my wife could see this.[/QUOTE]

I am of the mind that the way to solve the sex problem is NOT just for one partner to start flat backing. 

Fix the problem behind the sex.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I am of the mind that the way to solve the sex problem is NOT just for one partner to start flat backing.
> 
> Fix the problem behind the sex.


What about when there's no problem to fix? 

The HD/LD problem is often just that. Two people with mismatched sex drive and no underlying pathology. Part of the compromise then is for the LD spouse to "flat back" a little more often for the sake of the relationship.


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Cletus said:


> What about when there's no problem to fix?
> 
> The HD/LD problem is often just that. Two people with mismatched sex drive and no underlying pathology. Part of the compromise then is for the LD spouse to "flat back" a little more often for the sake of the relationship.


I seem to see regularly that it is selfish to refuse. Which I can agree with. 

But is it also not selfish to constantly impose your desire on the other person?

No one agrees with me on this but sex is DIFFERENT. Sex is not like going to see a bad movie because your spouse wants to.

It's the most intimate thing you can do with another human being. It isn't a throw away or a gimme. The analogy "What if I only wanted to go to work once a week?" is just plain stupid.

So how do you balance sex as a responsibility in marriage but ALSO as a highly personal thing that must be respected?

Do you really respect the other person if you go forward having sex with them even when it's clear they don't want to have sex with you?

And this one thing confuses the heck out of me. If it's really about wanting to feel intimacy with the wife/husband...why do people cheat?

To feel that marital love?

Yeah. That's what I thought. 

IMO sex should happen in a marriage. But I get a little disturbed when I hear things akin to "suck it up and do it." Easier said then done when it comes to something like sex.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I seem to see regularly that it is selfish to refuse. Which I can agree with.
> 
> But is it also not selfish to constantly impose your desire on the other person?


Wow. Feels like the umpteenth trip on the merry-go-round.

Marriage is one long, protracted, ongoing, negotiated compromise, including sex. 

It means being allowed to say no when you feel like it.
It means being obligated to say yes when you don't feel like it.

It means both things, just not perhaps on the same day. That's why it's called COMPROMISE. 

You get to decide today which it will be. How bad do you not want sex? How bad does he want it? How long has it been since you turned him down? How long since you last had sex? Have you turned him down the last 3 times he's asked? Has he not taken "no" for an answer in a long time? 

If your marriage is going to work, the HD partner has to be a little bit selfish and the LD partner a little bit deferential in the sexual arena. Don't sweat it - there's certain to be some quid pro quo on some other issue where the roles are reversed.

You want to be married? You want to contractually obligate your partner to accessing only one vagina for the rest of his life? That's the deal you're signing up for, make no mistake about it. Failure to understand and apply guarantees a reduced longevity or quality of your marriage.

And you wonder why I asked yesterday if you had really internalized this concept?


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Wow. Feels like the umpteenth trip on the merry-go-round.
> 
> Marriage is one long, protracted, ongoing, negotiated compromise, including sex.
> 
> ...


You won't die without sex. Respect for your partner should supersede everything. And YES that means having sex when you could take it or leave it. But the LD person can't be the one doing all the giving. Maybe sometimes the HD person could just forgo asking and deal with it him/herself. Not all the time, that's not healthy either. But if you know your partner would rather sleep, why not let them from time to time?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> You won't die without sex. Respect for your partner should supersede everything. And YES that means having sex when you could take it or leave it. But the LD person can't be the one doing all the giving. Maybe sometimes the HD person could just forgo asking and deal with it him/herself. Not all the time, that's not healthy either. But if you know your partner would rather sleep, why not let them from time to time?


I have a Ph.D. in that discipline, I can assure you. That's my part of the compromise. I haven't unilaterally initiated sex more than perhaps once in six months. I wait until I get the signals that if I'm up for it, I won't be turned down. 

Over the course of 27 years, as the HD partner, I have done WAY more than half of the compromising.

And guess what? Even though we have an agreement that allows us to both get a little of what we want, it's still the single most frustration fraught aspect of our marriage. 

This **** Matters. A Lot.


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Cletus said:


> I have a Ph.D. in that discipline, I can assure you. That's my part of the compromise. I haven't unilaterally initiated sex more than perhaps once in six months. I wait until I get the signals that if I'm up for it, I won't be turned down.
> 
> Over the course of 27 years, as the HD partner, I have done WAY more than half of the compromising.
> 
> ...


You honestly seem like a decent man and husband. So this may not apply to you.

However, this subliminal attitude that when a woman gets married, she's supposed to be constantly available to fulfill her husbands sexual desires, regardless of whether she feels like it or not, harkens back to the days when you could buy a woman for three pigs and a cow. 

"I can't get it somewhere else" doesn't mean anyone has a right to demand it.

People can expect whatever they want, reasonable or not.

I agree sex is, for most normal people, a need in a marriage.

But I think the term "need" can really be manipulated into something it's not, just so that one person can get what they want.


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## goodwife4 (Jan 7, 2013)

agree with littlebird. its the word need and the manipulation of it.

we didnt have the LD versus HD problem I have a higher desire than any of my friends i know but the problem was i had a very very selfish hubby who always complained no matter what I did, no matter how hard I tried, it was NEVER enough for him...

.... when my friends would say"my man would LOVE to have you as a wife, and i am never going to tell him about you or he will cry "

the thing was that for me personally i tried to do it all for my hubby and it just was NEVER enough ?


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## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

goodwife4 said:


> agree with littlebird. its the word need and the manipulation of it.
> 
> we didnt have the LD versus HD problem I have a higher desire than any of my friends i know but the problem was i had a very very selfish hubby who always complained no matter what I did, no matter how hard I tried, it was NEVER enough for him...
> 
> ...


But that is completely different from someone who knows they are LD but doesn't let their partner know until after marriage then expects a compromise.
LD and worn out are 2 totally different things (and I can't imagine being very attracted to someone who just takes).


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> But is it also not selfish to constantly impose your desire on the other person?


Neither I, nor my wife, would have ever married if we looked at sex as an imposition.

This mentality never comes into my marriage. We both are perfectly free to turn down sex whenever we like, and we both do. But the other person making advances, even if it's not the best time, is never, ever seen as an imposition.

This is one of the reason LD/HD people often don't work together. It's beyond just mismatched sexual drives. It's the whole attitude surrounding sex.

If I was with a woman who saw my desire as something I was putting on her, or imposing on her, we'd be over as soon as that reality set in.

I don't have any reason to ever be with a single woman on this planet who does not crave, and desire me, the way I do her.

That's fine for some guys, apparently. It's just not for me. And my wife feels exactly the same way.



LittleBird said:


> IMO sex should happen in a marriage. But I get a little disturbed when I hear things akin to "suck it up and do it." Easier said then done when it comes to something like sex.


Neither one of us just "suck it up and do it".

And yet we still believe sex within marriage is a right.

We love having sex with each other. It's important to our relationship, and we both wanted it about equally. 

So even if she says "no", or I say the same, nobody is afraid of the sex just drying up. The sex _will_ come.


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

jaquen said:


> Neither I, nor my wife, would have ever married if we looked at sex as an imposition.
> 
> This mentality never comes into my marriage. We both are perfectly free to turn down sex whenever we like, and we both do. But the other person making advances, even if it's not the best time, is never, ever seen as an imposition.
> 
> ...


You are lucky and blessed. 

I was more referring the HD/LD situations where the LD is expected to just put out more.


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## romantic_guy (Nov 8, 2011)

Cletus said:


> Marriage is one long, protracted, ongoing, negotiated compromise, including sex.
> 
> It means being allowed to say no when you feel like it.
> It means being obligated to say yes when you don't feel like it.
> ...


This has been the key to our relationship. There are times when I would like to make love but I know that she is really tired or in pain (she has chronic pain) so I don't approach her. There are other times that she may not really feel like sex, but she does anyway, usually ending with her having a great orgasm. I had to learn that she has "responsive desire" (google it) and realize that she will not often initiate. It is nothing personal. We are madly in love with each other, we are best friends, and we have learned to compromise. We usually have sex 2 to 3 times a week unless we are on our annual anniversary trip then it is at least every day.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> You are lucky and blessed.
> 
> I was more referring the HD/LD situations where the LD is expected to just put out more.



I mentioned that to highlight how imperative it is, if at all possible, to be on the same thing regarding this matter _before_ you wed.

My wife and I are blessed, but not lucky. Because we knew exactly what we were getting into. Being best friends for 6 years, and together for 8 before marriage helps (as you know). But those years would have meant nothing at all if we were fundamentally incompatible on key issues that truly matter, like sex.

Truthfully people in LD/HD marriages amaze me. I don't know how they do it. I couldn't (and this is coming from someone who practiced voluntary celibacy for many years). The resentment, and frustration, would just crawl too high for me, and it would taint the relationship. And on her part, if she was the LD partner, she'd find my constant need for sex intrusive, and perhaps even violating. That's a big mess, all around.

I still believe, under most circumstances, people of genuine like drives (not false, bait and switch drives) should wed. Of course after marriage events can take place to affect those drives, but it does pay to be on the same accord from the get go; at least then, if a problem arises, both parties are equally invested in trying to get back to a satisfyingly norm.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

jaquen said:


> I still believe, under most circumstances, people of genuine like drives (not false, bait and switch drives) should wed. Of course after marriage events can take place to affect those drives, but it does pay to be on the same accord from the get go; at least then, if a problem arises, both parties are equally invested in trying to get back to a satisfyingly norm.


Good points. I will start a thread about how to avoid getting baited, and I really look forward to your further contribution of wisdom and eloquence, Mr. Jacquen.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> However, this subliminal attitude that when a woman gets married, she's supposed to be constantly available to fulfill her husbands sexual desires, regardless of whether she feels like it or not, harkens back to the days when you could buy a woman for three pigs and a cow.


I think you're oversimplifying this issue.

Both spouses should be available to meet each other's needs. The issue is you only get as much as you put in. If you want him to meet your needs, you need to be willing to meet his. Sex is not some special concept exempt from this give and take.

So, if you want him there for you, you need to be there for him. If you both feel you are equivalently happy and putting forth equivalent effort. If one of you feels that you are doing more and/or getting less, you both have a problem.

That is what you apparently fail to recognize based on your prior posts. My strong impression is that you feel it's okay to not meet his sexual need yet expect 100% from him. The simple truth is that there are your needs and his needs - that's all. If you blow off the sex, expect him to blow off something you like.


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

DTO said:


> I think you're oversimplifying this issue.
> 
> Both spouses should be available to meet each other's needs. The issue is you only get as much as you put in. If you want him to meet your needs, you need to be willing to meet his. Sex is not some special concept exempt from this give and take.
> 
> ...


:scratchhead:

How on earth did you get impression? 

I have sex with him whenever he wants. And he sits on his ass all day and plays X Box.

That is baffling to me. 

Most men on here would trade a foot to have their SO do what I what I do- which is EVERYTHING + unlimited sex.

And last time I checked, sex involved two people not one. It's not just about one person getting theirs regardless of how the other person feels.


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## keethytheseeker (Dec 1, 2012)

We’re all coming at this from different directions. Maybe we can accept that we don’t come at this problem as free-thinking individuals. We all have ‘cultural attitudes’ which we bring to relationships. For example, Goodwife4 (Original contributor. Is that what OC means?) refers to the hard, physical, day-to-day work involved in maintaining a home and a career... Some people still think that cleaning the house, shopping, cooking, doing the laundry and childcare are essentially ‘women’s work’, others are beginning to realise that men who no longer bring home the ‘breadwinner’s income’ should now take on some of this ‘women’s work’ to relieve a hard-pressed woman to fulfil herself in other ways – play and leisure with the kids, the pursuit of creative expression, even sex. OK. Let’s keep the heavy hand of the state out of it. But how about a culture change?


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> :scratchhead:
> 
> How on earth did you get impression?
> 
> ...


You have sex as he desires but you don't want it yourself. That per se is not bad - lots of people have sex without being horny, and that's healthy. But, you have to psyche yourself up for it and it takes a toll on you. The sex is good for now - but it's not sustainable, because you aren't giving cheerfully. Your attitude was you accepted the reality of sex but weren't happy about it.

That gets us to... you said in another thread you could forsee sex dropping to once a month and you would expect he accept it and remain an attentive and faithful partner. You felt it would be wrong that if he treated you differently or left. It is on that basis I made my earlier statement.

And, no, a mature guy would not willingly put himself in your SO's situation much less make a major sacrifice to be there. Again, the provision of sex when you don't want it - that part is great. But knowing you dislike it, are fighting the therapist's efforts to help you, and it could dry up at any time... yeah, that's my dream woman - not.


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

DTO said:


> You have sex as he desires but you don't want it yourself. That per se is not bad - lots of people have sex without being horny, and that's healthy. But, you have to psyche yourself up for it and it takes a toll on you. The sex is good for now - but it's not sustainable, because you aren't giving cheerfully. Your attitude was you accepted the reality of sex but weren't happy about it.
> 
> That gets us to... you said in another thread you could forsee sex dropping to once a month and you would expect he accept it and remain an attentive and faithful partner. You felt it would be wrong that if he treated you differently or left. It is on that basis I made my earlier statement.
> 
> And, no, a mature guy would not willingly put himself in your SO's situation much less make a major sacrifice to be there. Again, the provision of sex when you don't want it - that part is great. But knowing you dislike it, are fighting the therapist's efforts to help you, and it could dry up at any time... yeah, that's my dream woman - not.


It's not going to dry up. The good people of TAM have made it perfectly clear what would happen if I let that happen.

Point taken, lesson learned.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Bait and switch gets mixed up with plenty of other things

Switch: - changing who you are to snag a partner.
Expectations: - differing expectations where man and woman have a differing picture of marriage.
Naivety: - Believing the fairytales. Happily ever after.
Life: - Kids, illness.

Clear cut bait and switch is easy to spot and there's not solution to it. It's just fraud. Someone loses weight gets married gains it back. Someone maintains employment gets married then quits working. Someone acts like they're HD gets married then instant LD.

Other issues are not so simple and many can be worked through. Reason is that there was no mal-intent. Even in these cases though, extreme naivety or expectation differences can only generate resentment and slow decay.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Thundarr said:


> Bait and switch gets mixed up with plenty of other things
> 
> Switch: - changing who you are to snag a partner.
> Expectations: - differing expectations where man and woman have a differing picture of marriage.
> ...


That pretty much sums it up well, thank you Mr. Thundarr!


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