# Always fighting



## s'mores (Feb 15, 2012)

It seems like my wife and I are always fighting. She always claims to "not want to fight", yet she seems to make everything into a fight. Oddly enough, we never fight about money. We never fight about anything important. It's always about stupid things. And I don't know how to change it. She says I love to argue and so I argue about everything. I don't feel like I'm doing so, but most likely I am. I want to get this resolved and have tried talking numerous times with her about it, but she seems uninterested in even talking about it because she views that as an argument in itself. I don't even know if this is something that _can_ be resolved.

Here's an example from last night while we were watching TV:

*Me*: (stomach growls)
*Her*: Your stomach's making noises.
*Me*: Yep.
*Her*: It's complaining about something. Just like its owner always does.
*Me*: When's the last time I complained about something?
*Her*: (give me a "are you serious?" look) Remember when I told you that you were complaining the other day?
*Me*: So the other day was the last time I complained about something? That's pretty good.
*Her*: No, that's just the last time I remember saying something about it. I'm sure you've complained since then.
*Me*: Well, I'm sticking with that's the last time I complained.
*Her*: I doubt it.
*Me*: Besides, you're complaining about me complaining now.
*Her*: You know, you're not being very nice tonight.
(several minutes later on next commercial break...)
*Me*: Why did you say I wasn't being very nice?
*Her*: ...
*Me*: Because I said you were complaining about something?
*Her*: (voice raising) It just seems like you weren't being nice. I don't know why. Maybe your attitude. I don't know. I don't want to fight about it.

(later on this one happened)

*Me*: (while watching a Ford commercial) It says to buy local. Can't really buy a Ford locally.
*Her*: It's a lot more local than Kia.
*Me*: No, the Ford dealership closed down and there's a Kia one close by.
*Her*: Fords are made in the US so you're buying locally.
*Me*: Oh, you mean "made locally" so you're "buying locally". Ah. I was thinking in terms of local dealership. But Kias are made in the US now.
*Her*: (raising voice) Fine, then ANY OTHER COMPANY NOT made in the US. God, you have to argue about everything!
*Me*: Well, saying "It's a lot more local than Kia" was the first argumentative statement. I don't see why you have to blame me all the time.
*Her*: You're being just like a child.
*Me*: _I'm_ being like a child?
*Her*: Yes.
*Me*: _You're_ the one talking like one.
*Her*: Are you _trying_ to make me mad?
*Me*: No, but I seem to be able to even when I'm trying not to.
*Her*: Then why are we even talking?
*Me*: It's better than not saying anything at all.
*Her*: Maybe for you because you always have something to say.

I realize that I at least added fuel to it, but after a certain point I can't just keep ignoring her accusatory comments. She's the one being rude and then calling me rude. I chalk it up to a misunderstanding of 2 different people and she says that I always use that excuse.

I've been getting little hints here and there from her about what I do that irritates her. It's like pulling teeth getting her to talk about emotions or anything relationship-related at all. So far I've gathered that she doesn't like when I dominate the conversation. She says I ignore what she says and only want her to listen to me. When I've asked for examples, she always lists times when I was talking about something, she interrupted with something of a completely different topic, I replied to what she said, then continued with what I was saying. I view what she did as rude, but I ignore it. It blows my mind to find that she thought I was rude for not halting my whole train of thought and changing the subject to her little comment about her not knowing what we should have for dinner.

She's said that she doesn't like it when I just start talking about something that comes to mind and I don't give her a chance to talk. That usually happens when she wasn't saying anything to begin with. She says she wasn't saying anything because I'm always talking and never give her a chance to. So I've tried to remain silent during those times and let her just talk if she wants to and then talk about what she wants to talk about. But she usually doesn't say anything and I find myself automatically saying something. When she does bring something up and I talk about it with her, I'll manage to say something that irks her in some way and it turns into her saying things like "just never mind, sorry I brought it up, I don't want to fight" and me trying to figure out that the heck it was I said.

Anyway, long-winded first post. Ask me anything else you'd like to know. Thanks for the help.


----------



## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

s'mores said:


> *Me*: (stomach growls)
> *Her*: You're stomach's making noises.
> *Me*: Yep.
> *Her*: It's complaining about something. Just like its owner always does.


She seemed to be the one being argumentative and disrespectful in the first conversation. I'm a wise guy sometimes and I think if my wife opened with that "It's complaining just like it's owner does." line, I would have countered with "You think you own me?" and a teasing smile.

The second one just sounds like unhealthy banter.

If she comes out with an outright disrespectful statement and you fuel the debate, you send the message that there is merit to her words and it is worth discussion. It isn't. Find your own style that will dismiss her disrespect and then don't fuel it further.


----------



## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

Sometimes the comments she makes don't require a response. Especially if they come across as rude or accusatory. I'd start with that... silence. 

Let's see how much fighting you do when you stop catching the ball.


----------



## myelw316 (Nov 18, 2011)

s'mores: my husband and I used to be like this ALL the time.
One thing I learned (I was the YOU in the situation, btw)....go a solid week and basically say NOTHING but nice things. Agree with everything in a positive cheerful way. Be funny, but never sarcastic. NEVER.
One week of me just not being 'critical' 'sarcastic' bantering/debating...and my husband said 'you are being SO nice'. What's going on? So I kept it up and it's been almost 2 months...now if we have a disagreement, he listens (because I don't disagree much...only when it's REALLY important to me) If I say something sarcastic every now and then....NOW it's funny.
You have to become silent and positive and always that way for awhile...long enough for it to break that pattern. 
It's not too hard. You both probably like to 'have something to say' or say the last word. SO hard to just be quiet (I was the WORST). But you know what? Just stick to a time line ... a week then a month and watch how the entire dynamic in your relationship will change. If one person changes the relationship can NOT remain the way it was. Change for the positive with that outcome in mind. It will be worth the silence...if you feel like you MUST talk....get on this site or call a friend. But keep quiet. If she says something....laugh and agree. Might seem stupid or pretend...but it works and it gets things on a positive note again.


----------



## s'mores (Feb 15, 2012)

@A Bit Much, Silence would indeed stop the fighting, but that's what she wants. She always wants to stop talking about it. It works in these cases, but other times it's when we're talking about something and it turns into a fight halfway through. It's a discussion we need to have, so we can't just stop it.

I view it as a train on tracks. It is going down the discussion track. Somehow it splits off onto an argument track. Usually I say something and it sets her off. You can't turn it around because the rails only let it go forward or stop. She doesn't want it to go further down the argument track because she doesn't want to fight, so her only alternative is to halt the train and abandon it. I want to continue on this track to see if there is another junction up ahead so we can connect back onto the discussion track, but she won't have it, because we need to get to the destination and all, we can't just not talk about certain things.

I suppose the solution would be to abandon the train and then start another one later on. But that seems like a temporary "sweeping the dirt under the rug" solution. It's ignoring the elephant in the room. We need to get to the heart of what is going on. Am I being unreasonable? Am I dominating? Does she have zero control over her emotions?


----------



## s'mores (Feb 15, 2012)

myelw316 said:


> s'mores: my husband and I used to be like this ALL the time.
> One thing I learned (I was the YOU in the situation, btw)....go a solid week and basically say NOTHING but nice things. Agree with everything in a positive cheerful way. Be funny, but never sarcastic. NEVER.
> One week of me just not being 'critical' 'sarcastic' bantering/debating...and my husband said 'you are being SO nice'. What's going on? So I kept it up and it's been almost 2 months...now if we have a disagreement, he listens (because I don't disagree much...only when it's REALLY important to me) If I say something sarcastic every now and then....NOW it's funny.
> You have to become silent and positive and always that way for awhile...long enough for it to break that pattern.
> It's not too hard. You both probably like to 'have something to say' or say the last word. SO hard to just be quiet (I was the WORST). But you know what? Just stick to a time line ... a week then a month and watch how the entire dynamic in your relationship will change. If one person changes the relationship can NOT remain the way it was. Change for the positive with that outcome in mind. It will be worth the silence...if you feel like you MUST talk....get on this site or call a friend. But keep quiet. If she says something....laugh and agree. Might seem stupid or pretend...but it works and it gets things on a positive note again.


Hmm, seems like a good solution. I can already tell you how hard it will be. But I'll try it.


----------



## grisha (Oct 24, 2011)

This is really interesting as you are describing my relationship with my husband amost exactly. We never really disagree on any important stuff and have a great relationship overall. But we have the same problem of arguing about very small unimportant things. Sometimes these arguments blow up really bad.
I don't have any advice for you. But I can kinda understand your wife as my husband's argumentative nature drives me absolutely insane. Sometimes it feels like for every sentence I say, he replies with a sentence that is negating my sentence. It is really crazy. It goes like 'Why did you say this' 'it is not what i said'. Usually we just laugh it out, but when someone is tired or has something else on his/her mind, it can really blow up bad. He also tends to hog all conversations even with MY friends, so that I am unable to put a word in. When I point it out he apologizes, but still does it again and again.
Sometimes I feel like when I am in a bad mood, I tend to pick on him just because I know it would start an argument. But I just want to be comforted. And he would comfort me when the argument is over. Sounds childish, but it is what it is. I did try to explain all this to him, but he does not seem to understand.


----------



## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

You think she wants to STOP the fighting?

I think she enjoys toying with you by starting a fight as well as enjoying dismissing you when she's convinced you want to resolve it.


----------



## s'mores (Feb 15, 2012)

Acorn said:


> You think she wants to STOP the fighting?
> 
> I think she enjoys toying with you by starting a fight as well as enjoying dismissing you when she's convinced you want to resolve it.


I had considered that as well, except she genuinely gets upset and often ends up leaving the room and crying if it continues for very long.


----------



## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Could you tell us what some of the "real" relationship-related issues that she does not want to discuss are?

How would she handle one?


----------



## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

s'mores said:


> *Her*: You're being just like a child.
> *Me*: _I'm_ being like a child?
> *Her*: Yes.
> *Me*: _You're_ the one talking like one.


Nothing wrong with fighting, even all the time so please don't quit. I would suggest that you both agree to some rules about "fighting fair" and agree to stick with them. My first suggestion would be for both of you to agree to ban any sentence that starts with the word "you". Start sentences with "I" instead of "you" and see how quick the quality of your interaction goes up.


----------



## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

s'mores said:


> @A Bit Much, Silence would indeed stop the fighting, but that's what she wants. She always wants to stop talking about it. It works in these cases, but other times it's when we're talking about something and it turns into a fight halfway through. It's a discussion we need to have, so we can't just stop it.
> 
> I view it as a train on tracks. It is going down the discussion track. Somehow it splits off onto an argument track. Usually I say something and it sets her off. You can't turn it around because the rails only let it go forward or stop. She doesn't want it to go further down the argument track because she doesn't want to fight, so her only alternative is to halt the train and abandon it. I want to continue on this track to see if there is another junction up ahead so we can connect back onto the discussion track, but she won't have it, because we need to get to the destination and all, we can't just not talk about certain things.
> 
> I suppose the solution would be to abandon the train and then start another one later on. But that seems like a temporary "sweeping the dirt under the rug" solution. It's ignoring the elephant in the room. We need to get to the heart of what is going on. Am I being unreasonable? Am I dominating? Does she have zero control over her emotions?



Why can't you choose your battles? What you mentioned earlier IMO went off the track because you responded to her negative comments.

When it comes to more serious discussions, you have to learn to take a break when she raises her voice, and say so... "It sounds like you're getting upset. I think maybe we need to address this when you are calmer." Then drop it and walk away. Ask her later (once she's calmed down) if she's ready to talk about a, b, and c and take it from there. It seems to me she's completely unaware of how she sounds and how she comes across to you. It's up to you to point it out.

From what you've said here your wife sounds very agitated with you in general. Why do you think that is?


----------



## s'mores (Feb 15, 2012)

Acorn said:


> Could you tell us what some of the "real" relationship-related issues that she does not want to discuss are?
> 
> How would she handle one?


Well, lately it has been this whole fighting thing. When she's in her best mood and when I'm tip-toeing like I'm walking on inch-thick ice _and_ the kids are in bed _and_ we don't have anything we need to do, I have been able to discuss it with her and get some actual useful information. In addition to the dominating conversations, she wishes I would ask her about her day when I come home from work instead of telling her about mine.

Without those ideal circumstances, she usually handles it as me beating a dead horse and bringing an old issue up. It turns into an argument almost immediately because thinking about it brings up the emotions she felt during it (or rather, ones she's been repressing since then) and it's like she's back when it was going on. Her usual comments are "Why do we have to talk about this?" "I don't have anything to say about it." "Why did we even get married in the first place if we're going to be having these kinds of issues?"


----------



## s'mores (Feb 15, 2012)

A Bit Much said:


> Why can't you choose your battles? What you mentioned earlier IMO went off the track because you responded to her negative comments.
> 
> When it comes to more serious discussions, you have to learn to take a break when she raises her voice, and say so... "It sounds like you're getting upset. I think maybe we need to address this when you are calmer." Then drop it and walk away. Ask her later (once she's calmed down) if she's ready to talk about a, b, and c and take it from there. It seems to me she's completely unaware of how she sounds and how she comes across to you. It's up to you to point it out.


I'll try that.



> From what you've said here your wife sounds very agitated with you in general. Why do you think that is?


I've noticed that as well. This baffles me. I've thought a lot about that and can't come to any clear answers. I ask her, but just bringing it up makes her defensive. The things I mentioned above are what she's said. Those and the fact that we are arguing all the time.

Other times she says she's not upset at me, her head just hurts. Or her back hurts. Or her hips hurt. Or her stomach hurts. Or the kids have been acting up all day.


----------



## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Wow. I am sorry you are in a relationship like this. Adulthood is not meant for this type of behavior.


----------



## CH (May 18, 2010)

s'mores said:


> Here's an example from last night while we were watching TV:
> 
> *Me*: (stomach growls)
> *Her*: Your stomach's making noises.
> ...


Maybe that would have been a better response 

All joking aside, you both were watching a movie together and it probably would have been best to just let that one pass instead of giving her more ammunition to shoot you with. I've learned to pick my battles now a days, can't win them all and don't want to. But there is no way in hell I'm gonna let her win the war though, unless I know I was wrong to begin with. Which is the case most of the times 

Sucks when you're wife is way smarter than you are.


----------



## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

> Her usual comments are "Why do we have to talk about this?" "I don't have anything to say about it." "Why did we even get married in the first place?"


I think you just answered my question about her agitation with you. 

I have a friend who's quite intellectual. A deep thinker if you will. His wife... when the moon is full and the tide is high, she MAY want to participate in his lengthy discussions and listen to him go on and on about whatever, but it's not too often. He gets angry that she's as deep as a teacup, and she gets angry that he's overanalytical. This leads to long periods of not really talking about anything meaningful. The problem with this lack of balance is that they both aren't really communicating. A problem will arise and they may fight about it, but it never gets resolved. The fight itself turns competitive instead of constructive, it becomes a put down match instead of an opportunity to work out a solution or compromise.

There has to be a balance. She's got a lot of resentment toward you and it's seeping out in just light conversations. It turns everything you say into something ugly. If you didn't work out the problem when it was fresh, bringing it up months later IS beating a dead horse to a certain extent. It wasn't important enough to either of you to solve it back then, so drop it. If it's an ongoing issue, then yes it needs to be addressed (whether she wants to or not) and put to rest. Don't rehash.

I'm not in your relationship, but from what you've said it really reminds me of the friends I mentioned. They're both miserable by the way... they both are wanting out, but they have a 6 year old to think about.


----------



## southern wife (Jul 22, 2011)

s'mores said:


> Here's an example from last night while we were watching TV:
> 
> *Me*: (stomach growls)
> *Her*: Your stomach's making noises.
> ...


Here's an example of how it COULD have gone:

*Me*: (stomach growls)
*Her*: Your stomach's making noises.
*Me*: Yep. *I'm hungry, I think I'll go get something to eat.*

END OF CONVERSATION; NO ARGUING! 

As for the Ford/Kia conversation, she seems to have alot of pent up anger for some reason. Maybe it's directed at you, maybe it isn't. Something is definitely odd with her.... :scratchhead:


----------



## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

s'mores said:


> I've noticed that as well. This baffles me. I've thought a lot about that and can't come to any clear answers. I ask her, but just bringing it up makes her defensive. The things I mentioned above are what she's said. Those and the fact that we are arguing all the time.


The stock answer here is not understanding and accepting the differences between men and women.


----------



## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

> In addition to the dominating conversations, she wishes I would ask her about her day when I come home from work instead of telling her about mine.


Also, do you validate her concerns/wishes? If not, why?


----------



## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Do you think she may feel worn down in arguments and that she will never win?

Maybe you could give her some easy wins when you can to change the dynamic to build up some healthy conversation?

i.e.:

"Yes, I guess I should get something to eat. Would you like something?"

"LOL I guess you are right then, you can buy Ford locally. I was thinking local dealerships when I said that."

Maybe she starts the fights desperate to win one and feel validated, and then she withdraws because it is the same convo over and over again, just different topics.


----------



## southern wife (Jul 22, 2011)

Acorn said:


> "Yes, I guess I should get something to eat. Would you like something?"
> 
> "LOL I guess you are right then, you can buy Ford locally. I was thinking local dealerships when I said that."


:iagree: :smthumbup:


----------



## myelw316 (Nov 18, 2011)

s'mores: 
try it now before you get derailed completely (to use your train analogy)
The thing is...for me to change I had to LITERALLY lose my husband. Don't wait for this scenario....it is HORRIBLE.
Let me tell you what I learned from that: your way is your way. That's all it is. It isn't right, it isn't wrong but it also ISN'T her way. And she isn't right and she isn't wrong. If you want a good marriage you can NOT keep doing the things that derail it. 
Put all of your effort into making your spouse feel loved and you can never go wrong.
Just enjoy her, love her, focus on every good thing. Let ALL the bad go. Eventually you will see there is mostly good and you get what you focus on.
Just enjoy her company and have fun. If it seems that you are getting to a place where she wants to halt the train. HALT IT. So what if you halt it. So what. I wish you could have lived my life for the last 4 months or I could download my brain to you....in the end, I was SO stubborn I don't think I would have changed had my husband not left. But it was hell and I'm not going to lie...if there is another way-TAKE IT.
Just do your best for one week and pretend to yourself she will leave you if you utter ONE word that is anything but nice. Just mosly be quiet and smile and agree. One week. The dynamic will start to change. 
If she left tomorrow. If she died tomorrow......how would you feel about these silly arguments? Someone has to be the first to switch it up and consider this: when the dynamic DOES change-there really won't be much in the way of 'serious' discussions to be had. And if there is, try writing her a note. Everyone comes into relationships with their own baggage. She sounds like she doesn't like confrontation. That's better than beating a dead horse (I was the dead horse beater and in hindsight I wasted years of my marriage creating negative drama. Yes it takes two, but he always tried to stop that train, too.)
Take my advice. Your life will only be better because of it.


----------



## myelw316 (Nov 18, 2011)

btw : my husband came back after 3 months. our life is different and SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much better and happier because I changed. 
I just don't wish the pain I felt from him leaving on anyone


----------



## s'mores (Feb 15, 2012)

I've been keeping these suggestions in mind a lot, particularly the "say nothing that's not nice" thing, but I'm having a terrible time at it.

One of the issues I'm running into is that half of the things that she has a negative reaction to are things that I honestly think are nice things, even compliments, and she just takes it wrong. In the event that I can intuit how she probably took it, I apologize and explain how I meant it, but she's already done talking to me by this point. The other times I have no idea how she could even take it negatively, even when I rack my brain trying to figure it out, and asking her will just make her mad because I think she assumes that I intentionally said something mean and now I'm just being even more of a jerk and putting the blame on her for taking it wrong.

Other times I don't know what to say that would be nice, but saying nothing isn't an option because it would be considered me ignoring her or giving her the silent treatment.

Take this morning for example. Keeping the suggestions fully in my mind this morning, I still was at a loss for what to say:

Our 3-year-old is being potty-trained. My wife has a chart on the refrigerator that has a sticker on it each time he uses the potty. Today I noticed that within the last couple of days she had also started recording down times and sad faces next to them in the spaces meant for stickers. I asked what those meant. She said it was times he went in his pants.

*Me*: (in a surprised reactionary raised voice) You're marking down times he went in his pants on the chart too?
*Her*: Well... I was... never mind.
*Me*: Sorry, I didn't mean to yell about it.
*Her*: (now her raised voice) Then why are you getting all on my case about it? How am I supposed to react?
*Me*: I'm not trying to get on your case about it. I was expecting something like "oh, yeah, I started doing that because..."
*Her*: Well, why do I have to justify everything I do to you? You never accept anything I do without having to know a reason. Why do you even care?
*Me*: I don't need it justified. I was mainly wondering because I'm using the chart for him as well and marking off when he uses the potty.
*Her*: You don't use it nearly as much as I do.
*Me*: It's not a competition. I'm just saying that I use it as well and I noticed a difference from how you explained to me how the chart worked before.
*Her*: Just never mind. I'm sorry I put those times on there. I won't do it again.
*Me*: (sigh) I'm not saying it was a bad thing to do. I just didn't expect it and had a surprised reaction. That is how my surprised reaction is, whether it is a good or bad thing. I'm sorry it seemed like I was attacking you about it. I'm sure you have a good reason for marking the times down.
*Her*: It's so I can see how often he goes.
*Me*: Okay. I figured it was probably that soon after I reacted. It's a perfectly good reason. I'm sorry I reacted like that. I feel like I keep messing up no matter what I try to do.
*Her*: Now you know how I feel.
*Me*: But you only feel that way because I messed up. I messed up by making you feel like you did. But you didn't. You did nothing wrong.
*Her*: (sitting looking absolutely miserable, then her eyes started tearing up)
*Me*: (sigh) You must think I hate you.

Then she got up and went to the bathroom, most likely crying. I felt horrible. When she came back...

*Me*: Sorry. I don't know what to say. I talk about my faults and even then manage to make you cry.
*Her*: I'm not crying.
*Me*: Okay. I've actually been trying really hard to say things nicely and I can't seem to manage to do that right.
*Her*: You shouldn't have to do that.
*Me*: Well, we can't keep going the way we're going. Something's gotta change.

I'm on-call and had to go into work today. This seems to bum her out, but she knows full well that my job entails this. I had a haircut scheduled for 1:30 and she was to have her eyebrows done at 2:15. She needed me to go with her so I could watch our son during it. At 11:43 she called me to ask how it was going.

*Me*: It's taking longer than I thought when they called me. (tech support)
*Her*: Well, just never mind, then.
*Me*: No, we can still go. I can take a break during it.
*Her*: But I need you to watch (our son) while I get my eyebrows done. It will take too long.
*Me*: I'm having a program run that will take a while to finish and the person is in another office until later, so it'll be fine.
*Her*: Okay, well remember it's at 1:30 for you and 2:15 for me.
*Me*: Yep.

So then at 12:48 I get a text from her:

*Her*: We should leave by 1pm to make it to your hair appointment.
*Me*: K
*Her*: Wtf? You'll text but not answer when i call?!
*Me*: Sorry. Latest call I have is from you at 11:43 am. (she knows I have horrible reception with this phone)
*Her*: Its 1 now. Whats your plan?

I was almost home at this point. She opened the front door for me and handed me a $20. I took it and made a confused face.

*Her*: Just go and get your haircut. I'll cancel mine.
*Me*: Why? You can get yours, too.
*Her*: No, it's fine. Just go do yours. (while standing in the doorway and not letting me in)
*Me*: I'm sorry I didn't get your phone call. I would have answered it if I did. Please don't let that influence our plans.
*Her*: I have to go to the grocery store and Wal-Mart, too, and that will be too long for you if you have to go back to work.
*Me*: Oh. Well... would you rather wait until I get back from work and we can all go?
*Her*: No, I don't want to take 2 trips into town.
*Me*: How is that 2 trips? Just the 1 when I get back.
*Her*: Well, if you're going to get your haircut then I'm going to the grocery store and Wal-Mart right now.
*Me*: Oh. Okay.
*Her*: (sitting looking really bummed)
*Me*: I'm sorry I have to work.
*Her*: Do what you have to do.
*Me*: Are you upset because of it?
*Her*: No, I'm fine. (gets up and goes into our room and closes the door)

Now that I think back, she may be upset because she saw her grandma today. She always gives my wife guilt for not coming out and seeing her more often.


----------



## myelw316 (Nov 18, 2011)

Wow. You are JUST like I was (regarding these posts of your interactions)
This is difficult for me to explain, because I totally get both points of view now, but I NEVER would have gotten what I was doing wrong before my H left me. AND then he started acting like I used to. And I thought the same stuff he said he always thought....and I got that I was being an a$$hole (no offense...but when you are on the other side of this situation you suddenly realize WOW....I was being an instigator).
I don't know how to explain what you are doing other than saying this: don't talk. Literally. Just stop talking, only smile and agree.
Because the problem is....you really don't and probably WON'T understand what you are doing that's wrong. You are a talker. That's the bottom line. You think she should want to talk until it's done being talked about. You want to discuss. You think it's reasonable to be married and discuss everything you would want to discuss. The problem is this: she wants love and support and not conflict and what your talking is doing is coming across as attacking. She probably feels attacked and you don't know HOW she could feel that way, because all YOU want to do is talk to your wife, whom you love.
Trust me on this....you need to be quiet. Stop talking for a week. Don't try to 'be nice' if you can't figure out how to do that without getting in the above scenario. Just smile, make her coffee or lunches and LISTEN. Don't talk. Pick a few words 'Yes' 'great idea' 'I understand' and only say those for a week or two. Shut up the rest of the time. I am not saying that in a rude way....I'm saying it as someone who is the YOU in that scenario.
You don't need to say most of the stuff you say. Truly. It isn't necessary to point out 2 trips versus one. Also you should try not to have expectations : I was expecting something like "oh, yeah, I started doing that because..."
Also never assume.
People like you and I assume a LOT and expect a LOT. You might not think so, but it's very apparent in your 'discussion' and I identify with it. I also know I personally would never have changed without such a traumatic wake up call and I desperately want to help you.....I truly do. Because women who are willing to leave their spouse are LESS likely to come back to them than men who leave their spouse. It really does sound like you love your wife and want things to be better....and you really don't know how the interaction goes wrong and I can finally-for the first time in my entire life-see both sides. I can't give you that, I can only tell you that the action you need to take to change the dynamic involves being quiet, not one single criticism, no expectations or assuming.
A lot of your talking is encouraged by your thinking. Your thinking is encouraged by expectations and assumptions and when you have either or both expectations and assumptions, you operate off of them as IF they are 100% accurate and they are truly just your assumptions and expectations and opinions and feelings...they are not HER reality, they are YOUR reality. And if you keep operating in only YOUR reality, you will never connect with your wife. You will shut her down. You will drive her away from you. 
Try to just spend time in her company in silence. Try to just accept what she says the first time: i.e. "i'm going to the grocery" your response : "sounds good!" (not 'do you want me to come' ) If she says be quiet, be quiet. If she says she wants to be alone, let her. If she seems down, don't 'guess' what she's feeling. You can be a constant source of calmness, peace, happiness....and then after you relax for awhile SHE will start interacting with YOU in a more open way and you will get what you want and need from her. At this point, though the two of you are in a vicious cycle and neither see a way out. The way out is for you to just be happy and quiet. I know it will be impossible. Try it anyway. We are not identical people, you and I, but I can truly identify with where you are coming from and I want to help you. I don't want you to suffer the way I have. I really don't.


----------



## s'mores (Feb 15, 2012)

myelw316 said:


> You are a talker. That's the bottom line. You think she should want to talk until it's done being talked about. You want to discuss. You think it's reasonable to be married and discuss everything you would want to discuss.


That's funny because the night before those interactions happened, we were supposed to go to my parents' house to watch my dad receive his new laptop we all pitched in and got him. My wife and our son was feeling sick, so she said she would just stay home. I said, "Okay, I'll just go, then." Every time we are supposed to go there and she wants to stay home, she always insists that I still go to "spend time with them" because I don't see them very often and because we said we would go. So, that night I decided to eliminate the argument and just do what she always says I should do. Well, her spirits visibly dropped when I said that and she said, "Okay. See you tomorrow." This is because I often spend a lot longer there than I mean to because we always get in long discussions.

When I got there, there were other people in my parents' church there and they were having a discussion on certain biblical scriptures. I don't attend the church, but I was raised in it and know a lot about it. They all have hope for me that I'll join the church one day. Well, my sister waited until the long discussion was over to unveil the laptop. There were new members of the church whom I hadn't met before. They were asking my dad how he would break down a certain scripture. He had already discussed it with someone else, but he was interested in hearing what my dad's take on it was. He's a very established member. He's known for giving long explanations, using analogies, and telling stories. He usually holds the floor at get-togethers. Probably as a surprise to them, I held the floor as much or more than my dad did. I was even put on the spot about why they don't see me in church. I answered honestly and they kept saying more and more things. It got to the point where one of the guys was like, "Well, I don't want to keep you on the spot for so long..." and I dismissed it and kept talking and it became more uncomfortable for the ones "interrogating" me than it was for me, so they wanted to change the subject.

One of the things I said was that they were all probably used to coming and hearing my dad hold everyone's attention while he talks a lot (this caused my dad to crack up) and weren't expecting someone to come and give him competition in it. I said how it was the worst when he and I get together and both have something to say. I'll start telling my story and he'll interrupt me partway with an assumption about what I'm getting at and start telling about his experiences that relate to it and I'll barely let him finish and I'll continue mine because I wasn't done and he'll jump in again and it's like we're telling each other 2 different stories at the same time. My dad laughed at this and everyone else thought it was entertaining.

So, when you said I'm a talker, it reminded me of that.



> Also you should try not to have expectations : I was expecting something like "oh, yeah, I started doing that because..."


I know what you're saying here, but in this instance she asked me how she was supposed to react. I know it was rhetorical, but I saw it as an opportunity to show her what I was expecting when I said it. If she understands what the expected reply was, she can understand how I meant it. If the expected reply wasn't defensive or negative, then I obviously didn't mean for it to elicit such emotions.



> Also never assume.


This is another tough subject for me. I always make a conscious effort to not assume. I've assumed so many incorrect things throughout my life that I made up my mind to never assume and always ask. What I've found with my wife, though, is that by not assuming and asking, she views the asking as interrogating and she gets tired of having to explain things that she expects I should have assumed. A lot of the way she interacts with me tells me she wants me to assume and not ask.



> Try to just accept what she says the first time: i.e. "i'm going to the grocery" your response : "sounds good!" (not 'do you want me to come' )


Asking if she wants me to come is something I learned from her usually wishing that I would come along. She will often say things like, "Well, I'm going to the store. Just stay home and do whatever you want." That is obvious to me that she wants me to come along, but she is assuming that I don't want to and is trying to make me feel guilty for not wanting to. If I said I will, she thinks I'm only going along so I won't feel guilty and she pushes me away. If I insist and just go get in the car, she's upset that I'm so stubborn and controlling. If I don't, I feel like I'm clearly telling her "I don't care what you want, I only care about what I want to do." Also, she's said several times that she wished I would ask what she wanted or ask what she wants to talk about. A lot of the behavior you're seeing in my interactions is from it being custom-tailored to what I have gathered she seems to want. I'll try to give short, affirming answers to her, but when it seems like a loaded question or comment, how do I cheerfully respond to have a good outcome?

Regarding everything else, I really want to do what you suggest. What conflicts with that, though, are the times between the arguments. Like this morning I was my normal self, saying witty, funny things and she laughed at them and joined in and it was an enjoyable time. We got along really well. About half the time it is like that. I think it really depends on her mood. That's why I try to guess her mood to see how I should respond.

It seems weird to not say anything. I'm sure she'd think something was wrong and would ask me about it. If I told her what I was doing, she'd feel bad that she was making me change who I am and she'd insist I stop. But I will try it as much as I can.


----------



## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

I have a question. How was courtship between you two? 

Communicating really shouldn't be this difficult.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

smores,

What was her early childhood like?

Do you know?


----------



## s'mores (Feb 15, 2012)

Conrad said:


> smores,
> 
> What was her early childhood like?
> 
> Do you know?


I know this about her childhood. She's an only child, but was close with her cousins. Her dad left when she was born, so she didn't meet him until she was 14. Most of her early life she lived on and off with her grandparents. Her mom had many men. My wife didn't like any of them.

Her mom had diabetes and died when my wife was 12. She lived with her grandparents after that and went to church with them. In high school she was dating her ex-husband. One of his friends liked my wife and took advantage of her. One of her "friends" who liked the guy who did that went and told my wife's grandparents that they had slept together and they kicked her out.

She lived with her uncle, then later moved back with her grandparents. When she turned 18 she wanted to move in with her boyfriend (ex-H) and they wouldn't let her because she'd be living in sin, but she didn't have anywhere else to go, so they got eloped. Most of the time they were together, she was either the main "bread winner" or the sole one, as well as taking care of their daughter and making the meals and cleaning the house. They never lived in a house by themselves, always with some member of his family.

She was married to him for about 12 years and she says they had a lot more in common than her and I do, but after a while they started fighting and getting in yelling matches a lot and he'd manipulate her and turn things around so that she felt guilty for disliking something that he did wrong. He would go on long speeches and always wanted to be right. She says that I remind her of him in that way, but in other ways I'm a lot better. She feels she has more self-respect now.



A Bit Much said:


> I have a question. How was courtship between you two?


Hmm... courtship...

It all started when I started working at my current place of employment in the IT department. She was working there, too, in Accounting. I was being given the tour and she saw me and thought I was cute, according to her. She told her co-workers and they of course teased her to make her blush, but one of them said, "Don't you know who he is? He's the photographer's son." She of course was referring to my dad when he worked there. Her co-worker was warning her about me because she was afraid she'd corrupt my virgin mind because my dad was well-known for being really religious.

We started chatting on the computer and she said she went to a local bar on Fridays with her co-workers and invited me along. I had already given alcohol a try a couple years before and decided it wasn't for me, but I agreed to come along anyway. She drank, we went to a restaurant, then she hinted that I could either take her home or she'd call one of her friends to take her to her home because she couldn't drive. I had been single for a while and was ready to have sex again, so I took her home. We started taking lunch together at my place because I lived close. Her 3-year-old daughter was in day care.

I soon learned that she wasn't really divorced from her husband like she said she was. She had just moved out of his house and in with her grandparents just a week before she met me. She and her daughter were living in a camping trailer. She was wanting a divorce but couldn't afford it. I offered to pay but she didn't want me to pay for her issues. She and her daughter moved in with me soon after that. It was better than the trailer.

After a bit she realized she was pregnant from our first night. Up until that point she had still been taking her anti-depressants, which were really bad for a fetus. She stopped taking them but it was too late. She lost it. It was around this time she quit her job and started watching one of her friends' kids, which didn't turn out so well and her friend moved out of state. I've been the sole source of income since.

A few months later, I finally insisted that she get her divorce and I was going to pay for it. I gave her the money and she went through with it, feeling relieved when it was finally over.

The 2nd time we had unprotected sex (1st was first night), we conceived my son. We had some rough times while she was pregnant, but it got better after he was born. He was born 3 days before his sister's 4th birthday. I was 26 and my wife was 30.

After realizing Valentine's Day was a source of dread for her, having never received a single thing from her ex-husband for any Valentine's Day besides a rose once when they were dating because she was mad at him, I set out to make it a good memory. We had already talked a little about marriage. I had made up my mind that I wasn't ever going to leave her or our kids, so we might as well get married. I waited until a Kay Jeweler's catalog came in the mail and she was looking at it. I asked her about different ones in there and what type she likes. After getting a good idea, I went to the store and picked one out for her. I also picked out a necklace since it was a really good price. She didn't have any good jewelry. A couple days before Valentine's Day I gave her the necklace. I said I got it for Valentine's Day and couldn't wait any longer. She loved it. This explained the Kay bag and answered any wonderings she had about what I was going to get her. I planned a trip to the coast (we live in Oregon) for the Valentine's Day weekend and had my parents watch the kids. On the night before while in the hotel room, I proposed and she said "yes". It was a really great weekend.

Naturally planning the wedding was stressful and we had some fights. We had to pay for almost all of it because we are better off than most people in our families. We thought it would get easier after the pressure of the wedding was over, but it stayed about the same and has steadily been getting worse.



Angel5112 said:


> Your post kind of has me giggling, not at you, but at the fact that this was my H and I when I was pregnant with our daughter. I also get like this whenever I get really hormonal during my visit from aunt flo.
> 
> In all seriousness, has she ever been checked for a hormonal imbalance? Communication shouldn't be this difficult. Also, are you meeting all her needs? This could very well be about something else entirely. Maybe she isn’t happy in some aspect and is projecting.


She doesn't seem to be any different during her period. I don't know if she's been checked for hormonal imbalance. I try to meet all her needs, but it's difficult to know when she doesn't communicate to me if I am or not. When she's upset at me I usually assume it's because I did something or said something or am not doing something, but she seems to like to keep me in the dark about it, saying not to worry about it. She's said before that I only care when she's upset and that she's told me in the past and I never listen, so she's tired of telling me.

Hope that helps.


----------



## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

> I soon learned that she wasn't really divorced from her husband like she said she was. She had just moved out of his house and in with her grandparents just a week before she met me. She and her daughter were living in a camping trailer. She was wanting a divorce but couldn't afford it. I offered to pay but she didn't want me to pay for her issues. She and her daughter moved in with me soon after that. It was better than the trailer


She wasn't ready for you. I think you know this, but have tried to make it work anyway. Helping her get past her issues, financial and emotionally I do think you've tried to be there for her as much as you can be, but honestly it sounds like she never really finished things with her ex. And it's ironic the thing she wanted to divorce him for is the very thing she says you do. In essence she picked the same argumentative person she spent 12 years with, because that's what she knows. 

You aren't him, and maybe sometimes she realizes that, but she's repeating the same pattern with you as she did in her previous relationship... which was her ONLY relationship prior to you. 

I really believe your wife needs therapy. Individual counseling would help her more than you ever could.


----------



## s'mores (Feb 15, 2012)

Yesterday and the day before I've tried the "not saying anything except short responses to her" with partial success. I still find myself just saying stuff before I realize it, but luckily they have been met positively from her. We haven't had a fight since I started. She has mentioned twice, however, that it's pretty quiet and I must not have anything to say. She said it was weird because I always have something to say and she asked if something was wrong. All I said is that I've been thinking about "us" a lot lately and have been trying some things and was hoping it was working. She said that we haven't fought the last 2 days, so that was good, but she said I seemed sad.

That was probably because she is going away for the weekend. Her only close friend she has who she can tell anything to lives one state north of us and she's been stressed lately and wants my wife to come visit her this weekend. I said it was okay and she's going to take the kids. They consider her their aunt. I want to go as well. They've come to visit us before. Her husband and I all seem to get along well. My wife hasn't invited me to come along. I don't know if it's because her friend didn't invite me, if my wife feels it would be a more comforting visit for her friend if it was just her, if my wife needs a break from me, if she would like me to come but doesn't think I want to and doesn't want to pressure me by asking, or if it's something else like she wants to go while I'm still at work so she doesn't have to drive in the dark. Whatever the reason, my worries tell me that it's because she needs a break from me and none of the things I've been trying are doing much. I feel unwanted.

However, with the whole "staying mostly silent" thing, whining about something like that is probably the worst thing I could do. It would probably received as giving criticism. But that doesn't mean I haven't been talking about the subject, giving her every opportunity to ask if I want to come along. So far she has strangely not asked. She's even making food for me while she's gone. I've said I'll miss her when she's gone and she says that she's not even leaving until Friday and finds it kind of strange that I'm already anticipating missing her. She says she's sure I'll find something to do. I don't know if she thinks I'm trying to hint that I want to go or if I'm trying to hint that I don't want her to go.


----------



## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

S'mores you need to back off. Let her go by herself and please don't take that to mean you're 'unwanted'. She needs a break from you and your tense relationship. It's not all your fault it's tense. She has a part to play in how it's been as well. She hasn't asked because she realizes that this would be good for both of you to have time away from each other. Sometimes time apart helps to bring couples closer together.

Let her go in peace, and you do you for a couple days while she's gone.


----------



## s'mores (Feb 15, 2012)

Thanks. I was thinking that, but wanted another opinion.


----------



## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

s'mores said:


> Thanks. I was thinking that, but wanted another opinion.




And no sulking please. Show enthusiasm about her trip... not to the point where you're giggling and smiling like the Joker but show some positive support.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

I'm not surprised to hear her childhood home was filled with neglect, anger, and abandonment. What you describe of her behavior towards you (ie: the lack of commitment to doing anything different and the anger when not getting her way) screams of an emotionally broken person.

She's likely known what you've wanted for years, but has been secretly angry with you because she's simply terrified to actually commit/submit to a man. She likely distrusts all men and holds them in contempt. You see, people who should not have hurt her DID hurt her a long time ago. You are likely the stand-in for her anger towards them.

Marriage counseling is not what she needs.

Individual counseling IS what she needs - with a focus on her interactions with you - and how she can get past her own anger and the resulting dismissal of your needs in your relationship.

Keep in mind that some people actually attend therapy simply to nurse their own internal anger. Of course, this gets nowhere. Then they end up repeating the same old mistakes for the rest of their lives. They are miserable and they blame everyone but themselves.

The people that hurt her aren't here.

Now, she's paying it forward.

It can stop here. But, she's going to need to fix herself. She's the only one that can.

You taking her crap doesn't help her a bit.

Most importantly, it does nothing positive for you.




s'mores said:


> I know this about her childhood. She's an only child, but was close with her cousins. Her dad left when she was born, so she didn't meet him until she was 14. Most of her early life she lived on and off with her grandparents. Her mom had many men. My wife didn't like any of them.
> 
> Her mom had diabetes and died when my wife was 12. She lived with her grandparents after that and went to church with them. In high school she was dating her ex-husband. One of his friends liked my wife and took advantage of her. One of her "friends" who liked the guy who did that went and told my wife's grandparents that they had slept together and they kicked her out.
> 
> ...


----------



## eastern irish (Mar 5, 2012)

Hi am new to here but your wife really sounds like my wife too.

We argue over every little thing mostly coming from wife. Even a little thing can trigger a huge fight. Nothing against women and I do love women but some women have this common trait which does not allow them to lose against their partner in discussion. Some of them are too proud to admit that they are wrong. So if you logically explain something to them, it seems that their self-esteem or pride was offended.

I have always felt like this: 

"Why should I say sorry to her when I didn't do anything wrong"
"I wish she did not make a big deal over every little thing"
"Why is she so self-centred and does she not have any consideration or no compromise what-so-ever"
"Men and women are too different to get on"....


----------



## MarriageIsTough (Mar 26, 2012)

Like many my situation is similar. no matter what I say or do it turns into an argument. I too am going to try the suggestion about being nice and not saying too much. 

What is the latest...is this method still working for you s'mores?


----------

