# Drowning in a sea of confusion



## PurpleOrange (Apr 10, 2013)

A while ago, I discovered my wife had been developing a relationship with a male co-worker that I felt had gone too far. I found a text where she told him she was glad my (medical) test results were clear, as she thought karma would punish her for her "unruly affection." I found other evidence as well that indicated something had been going on.

I confronted her, and she admitted that they had been flirting, and that it was inappropriate, but said that nothing had happened (despite the fact they spend a lot of time alone together.) She said that it was her fault (he is newly married) and gave explanations that I accepted. 1 week after she is supposed have made the relationship business only, I find an email from her to him that said: "You know in E. T. when Elliot and E.T. have to say goodbye and E.T. holds his finger to his own heart and says "Ouch," well that's how I feel. I hope the aching stops soon, it hurts."

To me, this seems to suggest she had real feelings for him beyond just liking the attention and flirting (which is what she said was all that was going on,) but I have lost all objectivity. I need a second opinion. Please help.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Trust your gut.

Don't jump and say anything to her at this time. It will be the toughest thing in your life, but sit back and watch. Keylog the computers and possibly cell phone. Do not ever reveal your sources.


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## carolinadreams (Nov 30, 2012)

It sounds like you need to get some sort of formal No Contact agreement. 

Your wife or he needs to transfer out, and you should probably inform his wife that they had an inappropriate relationship.

Infidelity flourishes in the shadows, but doesn't hold up well to illumination.


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## PurpleOrange (Apr 10, 2013)

She insists he didn't step over the line: "he's flirty and inappropriate with everyone." But my main concern is trying to establish her intent, with respect to the level of feelings she really had for him, adding in the fact that she is sending him that kind of e-mail secretly, even after I had very comprehensively told her how I felt about it.


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## Shadow_Nirvana (Jan 1, 2013)

A fully grown woman, sending such a teenager-like email to a man,probably mean at least a huge attraction from the wife's side. Beware.


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## mg2977 (Mar 20, 2013)

I am so sorry you are here. 

My H is having/had an affair with a co-worker and it started out with lots of texts. I wish I had found TAM sooner, because I did all the wrong things initially and maybe if I had acted differently the EA would not have turned into a full PA. 

Also the advice you received above is good, especially to keep quiet and to sit back and watch for a bit. At first I was real obvious in my snooping, tipped my hand, continually confronted him with what I had found and was then gaslighted for months. It got me nowhere. Once I began to keep quiet and formulate my strategy, things became much clearer. 

Get copies of your cell phone bill, get an online account with your cell carrier so you can monitor any activity from her phone and if you can get a hold of her phone to actually see the texts, take pictures of the texts with your cell phone bc she will if she has not started already, begin to delete the texts to hide them from you.

It seems that the workplace has become a breeding ground for infidelity (IMO).

Good luck and stay strong.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

If she says "he's flirty and inappropriate with everyone" then why in the hell did she send another email? That is why my suggestion is to lay low on it for now. Keylog and wait. Possibly even VAR (voice activated recorder) in her car cuz she might even be talking to him on the phone when she's out of your sight.

Sorry to sound paranoid, man...but this is the stuff you must do if you want to get true answers. She isn't gonna answer you truthfully. I asked my wife 2 years into her 5 year long affair if there was someone else. She held my face in her hands and said, "Absolutely not. You are the only one for me."

They lie. It's just what they do. I should have trusted MY f'ng gut back then.


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## mg2977 (Mar 20, 2013)

The "he's flirty and inappropriate with everyone" is almost the same line my H gave me in August when I started complaining about the many texts messages OW was sending him. 

I hope it is really nothing, but after what I have been through see my thread "Cannot Believe He Is Cheating w/ Coworker and I am Struggling", I would not believe that line she gave you. 

Cheaters lie, it seems to come naturally to them and they are very talented at it. I never thought my H would cheat but boy was I wrong!! Trust your instincts every step of the way.


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

You have to come in hard and state convincingly that if she has continued contact with him you will divorce her. Anything short of decisive, drastic action will in all probability end with her having a full blown affair, if she isn't already.


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## PurpleOrange (Apr 10, 2013)

The story is more convoluted than anyone could bear to read, but the short-hand is that I already did the recording/keylogging to get to the point where I confronted her, but unfortunately she is very tech-savvy and is an expert at covering tracks, so my intel is/was very limited. We have 4 children (2 teen-aged boys) so I am very aware of not wanting to ruin their lives for something that I may be over-reacting to.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

PurpleOrange said:


> The story is more convoluted than anyone could bear to read, but the short-hand is that I already did the recording/keylogging to get to the point where I confronted her, but unfortunately she is very tech-savvy and is an expert at covering tracks, so my intel is/was very limited. We have 4 children (2 teen-aged boys) so I am very aware of not wanting to ruin their lives for something that I may be over-reacting to.


Okay. Point taken.

Then confront her and say, "Why would you send another email with the silly ET reference? Seriously!?"

If she's covering her tracks, what does that tell ya? Again, hate to be the conspiracy theorist, but I'd suggest that if she's that tech savvy, then she's probably already got a burner phone that you have no idea about and secret email.

You are NOT over reacting. That is a fog that you're in if you think so.


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## PurpleOrange (Apr 10, 2013)

I can already hear her telling me the mail was because "they were such good friends, and I really miss that friendship."

I have to be honest and also add I am pretty much alone in this country, and after 20 years of marriage, I am terrified of what splitting up would mean for both me and the kids, and feel like I am on the verge of putting up with almost any kind of treatment to avoid the pain that would bring.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Okay, man. Totally understand. You're feeling isolated and it's pretty f'ng scary. Sorry you're going through this.

Let's be logical. 20 years of marriage is a LONG time. It's long enough for people to do some silly things and not act the way they did 20 years previous. If they are such good friends...does that bother you? I mean, it must because you're here - at TAM - writing about drowning in a sea of confusion.

We're fog busters, man. We see what a lot of people can't because they're in the thick of things. It sucks. It sucks moose balls. Mostly because most of us have been there. I've been married 14 years. I understand.

Again, you came here...we didn't come looking for you. What else can we do to help? I can tell you what I won't do: I won't help someone sit idly by while an inappropriate relationship threatens a marriage.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

PurpleOrange said:


> She insists he didn't step over the line: "he's flirty and inappropriate with everyone." But my main concern is trying to establish her intent, with respect to the level of feelings she really had for him, adding in the fact that she is sending him that kind of e-mail secretly, even after I had very comprehensively told her how I felt about it.


BUT!!! Your wife is married to you, not everyone! She is, it seems to me, edging towards having an affair with him or with someone else or anyone else. Counselling and monitoring her covertly are worth looking at.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PurpleOrange (Apr 10, 2013)

This forum is awesome, and I really appreciate every bit of advice. Having nowhere to turn for this kind of discussion means it just rattles around in your head until you almost lose your mind.

The last piece of the puzzle is that 10 years ago she cheated on me with a co-worker. It was eventually put to one side (I bought the excuse of post-natal depression.) This, understandably put me on high-alert, which is part of why I wanted a second opinion as my own judgement may still be colored by that.


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## Shadow_Nirvana (Jan 1, 2013)

Dude, sorry but I don't think she stopped cheating on you. Ever.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

PurpleOrange said:


> This forum is awesome, and I really appreciate every bit of advice. Having nowhere to turn for this kind of discussion means it just rattles around in your head until you almost lose your mind.
> 
> The last piece of the puzzle is that 10 years ago she cheated on me with a co-worker. It was eventually put to one side (I bought the excuse of post-natal depression.) This, understandably put me on high-alert, which is part of why I wanted a second opinion as my own judgement may still be colored by that.


I found out about my wife's 5 year long affair in March 6, 2012. I didn't join a forum (not TAM) until mid April. I understand having the crap ping pong around in your head. It ain't cool. Not by a long shot.

So. Now, with the light being shown on your wife's affair 10 years ago, you can see that it is plausible that at the least, she is open to an emotional affair...possibly. I mean, there's no touching, right? What's the harm, right?


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

once a cheater........


time to do some heavy soul searching. when will you throw in the towel? after the next one or the one after that?

i think shes been banging him and you do too. by her past how could you not.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

PurpleOrange said:


> A while ago, I discovered my wife had been developing a relationship with a *male co-worker *that I felt had gone too far. I found a text where she told him she was glad my (medical) test results were clear, as she thought karma would punish her for her *"unruly affection." *I found other evidence as well that indicated something had been going on.
> 
> I confronted her, and *she admitted that they had been flirting, and that it was inappropriate*, but said that nothing had happened (despite the fact *they spend a lot of time alone together*.) *She said that it was her fault* (he is newly married) and gave explanations that I accepted. 1 week after she is supposed have made the relationship business only, *I find an email from her to him that said: *"You know in E. T. when Elliot and E.T. have to say goodbye and E.T. holds his finger to his own heart and says "Ouch," well that's how I feel. I hope the aching stops soon, it hurts."
> 
> ...


Assuming you caught this before it became physical, because you already keylogged, VAR'd, etc.

BAD SIGNS:

1. He's a co-worker. She will see him every day. AND THEY SPEND A LOT OF TIME ALONE TOGETHER. How are you ever going to feel comfortable that she won't start up again in three weeks or three months, or even a year?

2. Secret email to him AFTER you confronted her. Although it seemed like she was ending it, the way it was worded implied that she still wanted to keep the relationship going as it was (inappropriate) and it was YOU who was ending it, NOT HER.

3. "Unruly affection" text implies she knows she's crossing boundaries.

4. Said it was all her fault, even though he is "inappropriate" with her (and everyone else). She is protecting him, hoping you won't confront him or blow apart his young marriage.

5. Covered her tracks in her communications with this guy, knew it crossed boundaries and took pains to hide it.

*6. Hasn't told you one, single INAPPROPRIATE comment that was made. Maybe you saw some messages/texts and aren't sharing with us. If not, exactly WHAT was he saying to her and she saying to him that was SO INAPPROPRIATE THAT SHE HAD TO HIDE IT ALL FROM YOU? Certainly the "karma bus/unruly affection" comment is very tame and actually references OTHER inappropriate behavior that had occurred previously.*

7. She already cheated on you with a co-worker. IT WAS SWEPT UNDER THE RUG. Now she is headed down that path again.

GOOD SIGNS:

1. Secret email to him actually did show she was ending it.

2. "Unruly affection" text implies it wasn't physical. Not really, it's a stretch. How sure are you that it was NEVER physical?

WHAT YOU SHOULD DO:

*1. Expose his "inappropriate' behavior to his wife.*

2. Ask your wife, if he is making "inappropriate" remarks to you, don't you think you should file a sexual harassment complaint against him? I think you should. As a matter of fact, if you don't, I will.

*3. Have your wife handwrite a "no contact" letter to him: "Other Man's Name: Please cease all non-business related contact with me. Your continued inappropriate behavior and remarks are NOT welcome by me and I want you to stop all non-business communications with me immediately. If you don't comply, I will have no other option than to file harassment charges against you both with human resources and the police. Signed, Wife's Name."*

*4. Have your wife write out the specific wording of the inappropriate messages that each sent to each other, as best she can remember.*

*5. Explain that these steps are necessary because she admittedly stepped over the line, tried to hide it, only came clean when confronted, still works with the guy AND spends a lot of time alone with him, AND she has cheated on you with a co-worker before. Tell her that without these steps, your trust will never recover, and you are NOT going to stay in a marriage where your spouse betrays you and then doesn't help you restore the marriage to one of mutual TRUST and respect.*


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## GROUNDPOUNDER (Mar 8, 2013)

PurpleOrange said:


> This forum is awesome, and I really appreciate every bit of advice. Having nowhere to turn for this kind of discussion means it just rattles around in your head until you almost lose your mind.
> 
> The last piece of the puzzle is that 10 years ago she cheated on me with a co-worker. It was eventually put to one side (I bought the excuse of post-natal depression.) This, understandably put me on high-alert, which is part of why I wanted a second opinion as my own judgement may still be colored by that.


Tell the OMW what's going on. If it were I, I'd also tell her that you wife cheated on you before with a co-worker. Let her work this EA(PA?...) from her end.

Seriously though, she cheated on you 10 years ago, is now in an EA with a new OM. I don't know why you're putting up with this again. You do realize that if she's not in a PA now, it's eventually probibly going to happen again.

It doesn't sound to me like she's very worried that you will divorce her, so she does what she want's, knowing you won't do much about it. Prove her wrong, or nothing's going to change.


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## Sussieq (Apr 6, 2013)

carolinadreams said:


> It sounds like you need to get some sort of formal No Contact agreement.
> 
> Your wife or he needs to transfer out, and you should probably inform his wife that they had an inappropriate relationship.
> 
> Infidelity flourishes in the shadows, but doesn't hold up well to illumination.


That sounds very extreme for this situation.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Sussieq said:


> That sounds very extreme for this situation.


On the surface, maybe. However, looking at the big picture I'm not quite so sure. I thought along the same lines when I first read that comment.

Then I read that his wife had an affair 10 years ago. Don't know the extent or length of the affair, yet it seems that she's already been down the path.

In a fight for a marriage, I believe that if these tactics are required to save it, then that is what must be done.

At the very least, I would inform the guy's wife that he's having inappropriate contact with at least one female in the office. I'd be willing to venture that he's done this a whole lot more, though. And she is primed to receive it.


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

Find out as much info as you can about the OM's wife. address, phone number, etc...

Since she claimed he's inappropriate, ask her to file a claim of harassment at her work place against him. She'll balk. Tell her you'll follow up on her report with her personnel department.


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

SomedayDig said:


> Okay. Point taken.
> 
> Then confront her and say, "Why would you send another email with the silly ET reference? Seriously!?"
> 
> ...


My wife had 2 burner phones


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

PurpleOrange said:


> This forum is awesome, and I really appreciate every bit of advice. Having nowhere to turn for this kind of discussion means it just rattles around in your head until you almost lose your mind.
> 
> The last piece of the puzzle is that 10 years ago she cheated on me with a co-worker. It was eventually put to one side (I bought the excuse of post-natal depression.) This, understandably put me on high-alert, which is part of why I wanted a second opinion as my own judgement may still be colored by that.


I bet you didn't realise you had married into royalty, did you? Royalty? Yeah. You could well be wedded to an Entitled Princess.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Hardtohandle said:


> My wife had 2 burner phones


^^

It isn't conspiracy is it?


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## Ovid (Oct 11, 2012)

VAR in the car never hurt anyone


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

Sussieq said:


> That sounds very extreme for this situation.


No.. Its not..

This sh1t is marriage cancer.. His wife needs to see that he will leave her. Her fear of him leaving or getting divorced has to be greater then her fear or worry of him outing this other man. Basically *"Sorry I got you into this, but I am not loosing my marriage over this."* 

Yes it sucks, its convoluted and crazy but you need to know that 20 years worth of marriage is worth her fighting for.

Like it is always said, you have to be afraid to loose the marriage to be able to keep it. I am a perfect example of failure. Trust me you don't want to go down my road.. I wish I would have attacked this much stronger in the beginning. 

I know its crushing and I know its easier said then done. I felt the same way. BUT if you could muster the courage and strength to be a real bad a$$ and tough guy for a bit you will win out 10 fold.

You just need to put her in a place where she does not want to loose this marriage. She has to be in a position where she goes holy sh1t my husband isn't messing around. I've never seen him so upset.. 

My wife had 4 EA/PA or whatever over a 19 year period. I had 3 chances to run. On the 4th one she kicked me to the curb and doesn't even talk to me and we have 2 kids. Why she doesn't talk to me I have ZERO clue..


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## bryanp (Aug 25, 2011)

The fact that she cheated on you previously changes the perspective quite a bit. If the roles were reversed would your wife have been so forgiving and accepting as you have been? She has been really disrespecting you and your relationship.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Given that she's already chalked up a history of cheating, coupled with her gaslighting of this obvious EA with this co-worker of hers, I'd greatly say that she is well on the way to PA status, provided that it hasn't happened already.

Keyloggers and VAR's are now the order of the day! Examine cell-phone logs and texting records of hers as well. Her deception is as plain as the nose on her face. She has a future in mind~ and sadly, my friend, it doesn't really seem to include you.

Continue to supply her with the rope, and she'll fastly hang herself. In the meantime, continue to procure evidence and get with an attorney to examine your legal rights and options.

Sorry to see you here at TAM, my friend, but you've definitely come to the right place!


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> On the surface, maybe. However, looking at the big picture I'm not quite so sure. I thought along the same lines when I first read that comment.
> 
> Then I read that his wife had an affair 10 years ago. Don't know the extent or length of the affair, yet it seems that she's already been down the path.
> 
> ...


:iagree:

More than anything do this and do not prewarn your wife.


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## mg2977 (Mar 20, 2013)

I know some of this advice posted may seem harsh or extreme, but it is good advice. These EA affairs between co-workers take on a life of their own and rapidly progress. You have very little time to stop this runaway train.

I think you should contact OMW, your W won't be happy but that's too bad. I contacted OWH and it was hard for me to do but so worth it. He was very pleasant to me, confirmed info for me and was thankful. I even gave him my H cell number hoping he would call my H, but no such luck there.

Good luck and stay strong.


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## carolinadreams (Nov 30, 2012)

My wife's EA to me was worse than the PA. The EA guy was a con artist trying to get her out of state, and telling her she needed to choose between me and him. What a POS. She almost threw up when I showed her the personal ad he had put up looking for a dude!

If you intend to stay in a relationship with someone post EA, the affair and chance for relapse needs to be smashed in the ground and burned to ashes.


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## carpenoctem (Jul 4, 2012)

Purple:

Why should she be glad that ‘your tests were clear’, if it was only just some heavy flirting, etc?

Presuming this has reference to STD tests, probably the OM told her he has one (otherwise, the OM would be insulted if she broaches this topic with him), and she (your wife) is glad that she did not pass it on to you. She should have herself tested, though (most probably, she already has).

Obviously, it has gone sexual.

(Note her fear of a karmic backlash. For a woman who has already cheated on you, talking about punitive karma, etc., just for some flirting / petting seems far-fetched.)

Or maybe she just did not want the OM to think she was unconscionable, vis a vis you.




She thinks, if caught, all you need is a good rationale (last time around, it was ‘post-partum depression’. This time, it could be cyber stress). *I wager she senses your insecurities* vis a vis being left alone (minus relatives / own family) in the community / city, etc. And that emboldens her.

Plus, maybe she has a serial cheating tendency, and you just know the tail end of it.

If she is a serial cheater, nothing much you can do about it, but decide WHEN you would walk. Now, or after the next three episodes.

If she is an opportunistic cheater, that could perhaps be checked with IC / MC, etc., followed by establishing boundaries.




And the logic that ‘he behaves inappropriately / flirts with all women’, and she was just incidentally included in the list -- that insults one’s intelligence.

If you go to a lap dance club with friends after an office party or something, and act VERY intimate with the lap dancer, would your wife buy the argument ‘but she was getting physical with everyone’? 

It does not matter to you how the OM is with other women. Your concern is how he behaves with your wife, and how she responds to that.



Not directly related, but this logic reminds me of a thread here.

Can’t recollect the name, but there was a Betrayed Husband on TAM, who, when he expressed his extreme distress and possibility of wanting to separate, was told by his wayward wife that many of her friends cheated on their husbands, and none of them reacted that way (they put up with it, gritted their teeth and moved on, why can’t YOU?)




*Whatever your response to this incident, if you don’t want a periodic repeat of this trend, you have to make her believe that you WILL walk out if you are thus disrespected again.*

No woman respects a man who puts up with infidelity. Now, if it is their own infidelity, they might thank you for letting their infidelity slide, might even be grateful for your forgiveness, but at the same time, they will ironically hold latent disrespect for you for that very same act of forgiveness.


*In short, you are in a losing deal. Hope you derive the best (least bad) permutation out of it.*


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## ironman (Feb 6, 2013)

PurpleOrange said:


> I am very aware of not wanting to ruin their lives for something that I may be over-reacting to.


That's an excuse you're telling yourself and it's holding you back from taking the action you damm well know you need to. 



PurpleOrange said:


> 10 years ago she cheated on me with a co-worker. It was eventually put to one side (I bought the excuse of post-natal depression.)


She probably lost respect for you long ago because you "tolerated" her affair ... once again telling yourself it was, "_for the kids_". Funny how it seems you're the only one thinking of what the kids would think each time she cheats isn't it?

It's time for you to stop being afraid, "man up", do the 180 and/or get divorced. She most likely never stopped cheating on you.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

mg2977 said:


> I know some of this advice posted may seem harsh or extreme, but it is good advice. These EA affairs between co-workers take on a life of their own and rapidly progress. You have very little time to stop this runaway train.


Indeed they do. In the space of three weeks, my wife went from meeting POSOM on their first day of training for a new job, to spending all day texting very inappropriately, to being bent over a park bench...just days after my birthday.

Do what you need to to nuke this inappropriate relationship, Purple.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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