# Not sure why I'm writing but here it goes.....



## Guy Epp (Aug 3, 2012)

W and I are in our mid 40's. We met in college and been married for 23 years.....it gets complicated.

Wife grew up in a small town, was molested by family member, lost virginity through date rape, got pregnant by a one-night stand and gave up her daughter in adoption after waiting too long to get an abortion. Older brother she adored was an early victim of AIDS and she watched him die in her arms when she was 20. She has a very controlling mother that was non-supportive and even vindictive. She is a people pleaser who doesn't like conflict. She's a wonderful person and I adore her.

I have a strong personality who doesn't take no for an answer and likes to be in control. Raised catholic in a large city. Parents only dated each other before marriage. Grew up with a stay at home mom who waited with dinner for dad, etc. Very conservative and traditional family. A private person.

We met in college through a mutual friend. I went to play pool at a local bar and there she was. I had noticed her for a while but never had the opportunity to approach her. Mutual friend introduced us and we ended up talking all night (we both had a death in the family recently). We made love that night and ended up moving in together three months later. 

Sex was great in quality and quantity. We watched porn together and jointly fantasized about a third (female) joining us. We got married and then we had 3 kids back to back to back. Sex life went down the drain and we got busy being parents.

Eventually she agreed to a 3some and told me to arrange it, which I did. I don't think she thought I'd do it but I surprised her by coming home one evening and telling her to get dressed to go out. We went to a hotel where we were joined by another person. She was mostly passive but was a participant. 

Eventually we move back to her small town because of job loss and school. Things had changed and I was away for 18 hrs a day without phone contact. We barely have sex or any intimacy. I'm busy with school and she's asleep when I leave and asleep when I come back.

I end up working during week in a city 4 hrs away and coming home on weekends. Almost no sex now and I stupidly have a one-night stand thinking she'll never know. I left the motel receipt in my pants and she found it. I denied anything and claimed I couldn't go through with it. We get past that and move to another city with the family.

Things start looking more normal and we have another FMF threesome. Sex life is getting better but things change quickly. She withdraws and months go by without any physical contact. Eventually she's diagnosed with depression and starts getting help. 

Her depression seems to be in control and she starts acting like her old self. Problem is that the intimacy is not there. She goes back to school and starts keeping late hours (works fulltime and goes to school at night). When she's home she studying in the kitchen while I'm in the bedroom watching tv.

Due to my constant requests for sex she eventually gives me a one sided "open marriage". All she asks is that I keep her in the dark about who/when etc. I'm not sure if she means it or not but eventually I see one woman twice over the course of 2 years.

I see some changes in her so I decide to hack her Facebook and sure enough she's been corresponding with friends from high school. To one she confides that she's biding her time and taking an extra class to graduate early and leave. With another she uses inappropriate language: He says she's teasing because she didn't let him "slap that ass" in high school and she won't now. She responds "not necessarily". There's another message alluding to my weight gain.

I wake her up in the middle of the night and confront her. Typical reaction I guess, she was mad I violated her "privacy" etc. Big trust issues for me. Through a keylogger I'm able to continue seeing her FB activity and catch her in lie after lie over the course of the next month while we are going to counseling. Eventually I get caught and she drops facebook completely.

We work things out and after about a year we are doing well. We even have another threesome and sex life is on the upswing (not where I would like it but in the right direction.) 

Then a year ago she has to do her internship for her degree at the same time I get involved in a 6 month community project where we are both busy until late at night. She finishes her school in December while I still have 3 more months to go. 

In March our oldest son attempts suicide and we have to travel to his college and stay there for 10 days. She's non-communicative and doesn't provide me with any support but I'm there for her. This attempt has made us look at the relationship I have with my son (he's gay) and other children.

Then 2 months ago I notice she starts acting "funny". I see and email to her girlfriend stating I"m barely "bearable". This is enough to get me to hack her facebook again. I find an email to a male cousin of hers who she reconnected with within the last 6 moths. In that email she confides and shares our secret of the "open marriage", states how I hound her "for love and attention", how I masturbate to online porn due to a lack of sex, and how she's not in love with me anymore etc. (Remember I"m a private person).

I'm devastated - I just can't understand why she would do that. Typcial WAS I guess. 

I confided with a married female friend who's worked closely with me and turns out she has fallen for me. I had an attraction to her but didn't think I had a chance. We are having an emotional relationship and have gone on a couple of dates (we don't call them that) where we just sit and talk. Nothing physical other than a strong "hug" when we leave. 

I don't think I want to get hurt again and am not sure I want to try to save my marriage as I've lost trust in my wife and feel she's would be happy with the status quo from a security point of view. I adore her but don't trust her anymore.

Wife is trying to make amends and has become affectionate and I have to tell you it is nice but I don't know if it will be long lasting.

Meanwhile my female friends told me she wants to end the emotional relationship and limit our conversations to "just business". I've had her on my mind for the better part of two days - not my wife. 

I know, I'm rambling. Thank you for reading.

Well - I guess the reason for writing is to get advice after all. Turns out wife resents me for "forcing" our first threesome and having an "affair". She was depressed for 6 years and showed no emotion. Thought we had solved this 3 years ago but we hadn't. I adore her but don't want to live like I have for the last 10 years. My EA shows me that others find me attractive and want to be with me. I guess the decision is whether I leave or not.


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## xena74 (May 5, 2012)

Wait, did I read this right?

YOU had the affair, You suggested the 3 soms, You are having a "emotional relationship" with a co-worker, and you don't trust her????

I would resent you and be depressed if I was her too. I NEVER advocate divorse, but for you guys...I say leave. Do her a favor and give her a chance to have a happy life with a man who really understands her and what she needs.


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

Not sure your going to get too much sympathy with your problem. She sounds like you put her through a lot. I felt bad for her just by reading that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Do you really love you wife?


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## MrsOldNews (Feb 22, 2012)

Just leave her and never get married again. Shell be much better off finding a man who treats her right and respects the boundaries of marriage. 

How do you justify what you do in your head?? Have you considered IC?


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## TeaLeaves4 (Feb 19, 2010)

xena74 said:


> Wait, did I read this right?
> 
> YOU had the affair, You suggested the 3 soms, You are having a "emotional relationship" with a co-worker, and you don't trust her????
> 
> I would resent you and be depressed if I was her too. I NEVER advocate divorse, but for you guys...I say leave. Do her a favor and give her a chance to have a happy life with a man who really understands her and what she needs.


I agree. And yes, you did violate her "privacy" by hacking her Facebook and email when you're the one who asked for the open marriage. Or did that privilege only apply to you in your mind?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Nice story, I like the way you add in some homosexuality to the alternative lifestyle. That was just enough to get us homophobic monogamous heterosexuals all worked up. Don't you think? 
IMO


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

xena74 said:


> Wait, did I read this right?
> 
> YOU had the affair, You suggested the 3 soms, You are having a "emotional relationship" with a co-worker, and you don't trust her????
> 
> I would resent you and be depressed if I was her too. I NEVER advocate divorse, but for you guys...I say leave. Do her a favor and give her a chance to have a happy life with a man who really understands her and what she needs.


Yeah....

OP - what are you wanting to save? Sounds like y'alls marriage was over years ago...


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

Great bit of storytelling. Enough intrigue to keep you interested. I have to assume it's storytelling because no one person can actually do this much harm to his wife in a single marriage.

You caused all of this.


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## christeeanna (Aug 3, 2012)

People can be so cruel on here. I would just like to say that it seems like your life is complicated. Sometimes people that are that deeply involved in a situation like yours don't really see how disturbing or dysfunctional it all is. It happens to all of us to some degreee.
Couseling is a good option but realistically not too many adults in their forties want this much drama going on. I am in my mid forties and I could not deal with it.


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## Unsure in Seattle (Sep 6, 2011)

Realistically, the best thing to do for all parties would be to split up.


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## Guy Epp (Aug 3, 2012)

xena74 said:


> Wait, did I read this right?
> 
> YOU had the affair, You suggested the 3 soms, You are having a "emotional relationship" with a co-worker, and you don't trust her????
> 
> I would resent you and be depressed if I was her too. I NEVER advocate divorse, but for you guys...I say leave. Do her a favor and give her a chance to have a happy life with a man who really understands her and what she needs.


I had a one night stand. 
The relationship started after me finding the email where she pretty much admits not loving me and how I keep "hounding her for love and affection".

I don't trust her because I thought we had worked through all of that and it was in the past. I've been generally happy and thought she was too.

My brain says to leave, now I have to make the emotional decision. She doesn't want me to leave by the way and is trying to "win me back".


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## Guy Epp (Aug 3, 2012)

richie33 said:


> Not sure your going to get too much sympathy with your problem. She sounds like you put her through a lot. I felt bad for her just by reading that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She has been through a lot, both before me and after me. I've been through a lot on my end as well. Not looking for sympathy but some support and objective views from others. Thank you all.


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## Guy Epp (Aug 3, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> Do you really love you wife?


I do love her - and believe she does me. The question is whether we are good for each other.


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## Guy Epp (Aug 3, 2012)

MrsOldNews said:


> Just leave her and never get married again. Shell be much better off finding a man who treats her right and respects the boundaries of marriage.
> 
> How do you justify what you do in your head?? Have you considered IC?


I probably need IC and am considering it.

Forgot to mention that while engaged she kissed a co-worker. She claims it was one kiss at a going away party (college summer program) but I've held that ever since. She says that is all it was but she lies to me all the time. She's also the one that proposed the open marriage, I didn't ask for it. She says she wanted to give me what she couldn't.


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## Guy Epp (Aug 3, 2012)

TeaLeaves4 said:


> I agree. And yes, you did violate her "privacy" by hacking her Facebook and email when you're the one who asked for the open marriage. Or did that privilege only apply to you in your mind?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I didn't ask for the open marriage - she offered it because she couldn't/wouldn't be intimate with me. Turns out she was depressed for 10 years and she went without treatment. Used my "privelege" twice in 2 years.

Asked her many times to cancel the contract - that I didn't want it but wanted her instead. She would have none of it.


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## Guy Epp (Aug 3, 2012)

anchorwatch said:


> Nice story, I like the way you add in some homosexuality to the alternative lifestyle. That was just enough to get us homophobic monogamous heterosexuals all worked up. Don't you think?
> IMO


She blames herself for our son's homosexuality because of her genes. Besides her brother we also have a lesbian niece. She lied to me about her brother dying of AIDS because she though I would leave her (this was way back in the 80's).


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## Jojara (Aug 1, 2012)

I think the most loving and kind thing you could do is let her go. The two of you seem to be on such different playing fields. I wouldn't say that either one is more 'right' than the other...but very very different. And sooooo terribly hurtful. Letting go and moving on are not always the worst alternatives.


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## Guy Epp (Aug 3, 2012)

Cherry said:


> Yeah....
> 
> OP - what are you wanting to save? Sounds like y'alls marriage was over years ago...


It does sound like it was over a while ago problem is that I still love her but don't get any affection back. Used to blame it on her depression until she got treatment. Every other aspect got better except ours.

We've been talking a lot and she thinks our first 3some, my one night stand combined with being back in her small town practically broke while I went to school and the onset of her depression basically robbed us of 10 years.

At one point she told me she didn't feel anything - towards me or the kids. Said she didn't love them.


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## Guy Epp (Aug 3, 2012)

sinnister said:


> Great bit of storytelling. Enough intrigue to keep you interested. I have to assume it's storytelling because no one person can actually do this much harm to his wife in a single marriage.
> 
> You caused all of this.


I don't think I caused it per se but I sure had a part in it. When I met her she was an alcoholic and she's been sober ever since. The issues she carries from before meeting me certainly didn't help our marriage's intimacy.

It is a story, but a real story of two people.


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## Guy Epp (Aug 3, 2012)

christeeanna said:


> People can be so cruel on here. I would just like to say that it seems like your life is complicated. Sometimes people that are that deeply involved in a situation like yours don't really see how disturbing or dysfunctional it all is. It happens to all of us to some degreee.
> Couseling is a good option but realistically not too many adults in their forties want this much drama going on. I am in my mid forties and I could not deal with it.


That's just it. I don't think I want to deal with all the drama. I have ommitted from the story my point of view on many things. For example I went 2-3 months at a time without any contact at all - this went on for years (6?) I stuck around because I loved her and was floored 3 years ago when I saw her FB messages. Thought we worked it out and things have been a lot better until our son's suicide attempt - this made look deep inside - then found her new FB messages. I think I'm ready to quit trying - hence the EA I'm having now.


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## Guy Epp (Aug 3, 2012)

Unsure in Seattle said:


> Realistically, the best thing to do for all parties would be to split up.


You might be right. It is hard imagining a life apart. I think we love each other but are not good for each other.

She is unable to let go even the smallest of situations and blames herself for everything. She's also projecting past issues on me. For example I called her selfish once and she has resented me for it immensely. Her mother used to call her selfish as a child and she still carries that pain.


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## TeaLeaves4 (Feb 19, 2010)

Guy Epp said:


> I didn't ask for the open marriage - she offered it because she couldn't/wouldn't be intimate with me. Turns out she was depressed for 10 years and she went without treatment. Used my "privelege" twice in 2 years.
> 
> Asked her many times to cancel the contract - that I didn't want it but wanted her instead. She would have none of it.


Well, ok, but did you think that was just for you? I just think its a bit hypocritical for you to have had a secret one night stand and a couple other affairs but then get upset that she may be doing it too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Guy, if you're for real, all I can say is your relationship is so far off center from what anyone could call healthy. (I can't bring myself to call it a marriage) It's so sick and damaged with so many mistakes that any of then alone could destroy a relationship, I don't know how either of you can still look at each other. My brain hurts from thinking that this could be true. I don't know what you want to save, from what you describe, you never had a marriage to save. I have no answers for you. It's too much of a mess for any lay person to deal with.


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## DayDream (May 25, 2011)

Okay okay...wait. What about a trial separation for now? Just so you each can get back to yourselves. With an agreement and commitment to not dating other people just to keep from confusing things. I mean...it's like throwing a bunch of ingredients into a pot and trying to fix it by throwing even more crap in there. How about a trip back down to zero for each of you and then you can decide what it is you want?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You've held a kiss against her from while you were engaged? Seriously? She grew up in an abusive household, was raped, and you hold a kiss against her?

Do you want to know the #1 issue I see in your marriage? It's one that won't get fixed easily or quickly but, if you address it, you can have a great marriage together.

It's this, in a nutshell: She is a conflict avoider and you are an Alpha Type A personality. That means that, for your entire marriage, she has never ever felt safe with you. She has never confided in you. She has never fought for what she wanted. So she has been living a lie the whole time. 

If you want to have a good marriage, start with individual counseling for both - for her to learn to get over her past abuses and learn to love herself and stand up for herself, and for you to learn to stop being a bull in a china shop where she is concerned. It will take a lot of effort on BOTH your parts to overcome these two things.

Once you've done a good 6 months of this, THEN start going to marriage counseling with a PRO-MARRIAGE counselor.

And one other suggestion. Do a 180 in terms of bedroom activities. Spend a couple weeks doing nothing but pleasing her; take care of yourself later but focus on her. Show her what SF can do for HER so that she can learn it's not a tool to be used against her or a bad thing, as I guarantee you she has never learned that.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Guy Epp said:


> Asked her many times to cancel the contract - that I didn't want it but wanted her instead. She would have none of it.


 Huh? You had to 'cancel a contract' in order to not go outside your marriage? Puhleaze.

A more respectful, loving thing to do would have been to say 'nope; I want nothing to do with another woman because you're who I chose; if you don't want it, we'll find a way around this.' 

You had a major fail.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Guy Epp said:


> At one point she told me she didn't feel anything - towards me or the kids. Said she didn't love them.


 She probably has toxic shame due to her upbringing. Such people bury their feelings because they believe themselves to be utterly flawed and hopeless; therefore it's easier not to feel at all than to feel pain. I've had the same feelings about love and such.


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## DayDream (May 25, 2011)

I think the threesome thing she went along with for you, because it turned you on, and she would have done and said anything to please you. But somewhere along, she didn't really think you'd go along with it because she hoped she was all you really wanted. So when you surprise set it up and went through it, she didn't want to be a killjoy because after all...she went with you on the fantasy and probably felt too guilty to go against it. Besides...you wanted it. She probably thought it'd be a one time thing. Well, you did it a few more times. Was she passive during those? 

I think the threesome helped kill the marriage. I wouldn't be able to get past seeing my husband with another woman or the fact that he would want to be with another woman when he had me. That probably ate at her. Among the other things.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You broke her heart.


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## Guy Epp (Aug 3, 2012)

TeaLeaves4 said:


> Well, ok, but did you think that was just for you? I just think its a bit hypocritical for you to have had a secret one night stand and a couple other affairs but then get upset that she may be doing it too.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks for your comment.

My one night stand was a mistake - accept full blame. It was wrong of me.

The other two times (and that's all it was) was with her blessing.

What gets me is the lack of affection (she gets plenty from me) and confiding in other men when I lay next to her every night. I never stopped loving her and am still in love - but she isn't.


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## Guy Epp (Aug 3, 2012)

anchorwatch said:


> Guy, if you're for real, all I can say is your relationship is so far off center from what anyone could call healthy. (I can't bring myself to call it a marriage) It's so sick and damaged with so many mistakes that any of then alone could destroy a relationship, I don't know how either of you can still look at each other. My brain hurts from thinking that this could be true. I don't know what you want to save, from what you describe, you never had a marriage to save. I have no answers for you. It's too much of a mess for any lay person to deal with.


Unfortunately it is real. Don't know how we got in this path. Talking to wife she thinks the only thing we had in common was an appetite for sex. We have very little in common now that the kids are leaving the house and we have to talk to each other.


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## Guy Epp (Aug 3, 2012)

turnera said:


> You broke her heart.


 Cried a tear when I read this. Seem's to be the root of everything else we went through.


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## Guy Epp (Aug 3, 2012)

DayDream said:


> I think the threesome thing she went along with for you, because it turned you on, and she would have done and said anything to please you. But somewhere along, she didn't really think you'd go along with it because she hoped she was all you really wanted. So when you surprise set it up and went through it, she didn't want to be a killjoy because after all...she went with you on the fantasy and probably felt too guilty to go against it. Besides...you wanted it. She probably thought it'd be a one time thing. Well, you did it a few more times. Was she passive during those?
> 
> I think the threesome helped kill the marriage. I wouldn't be able to get past seeing my husband with another woman or the fact that he would want to be with another woman when he had me. That probably ate at her. Among the other things.


She was not passive - pretty active actually. So much so that I didn't blink ask for another every couple of years or so. Talking through things she realizes she compromised herself by doing so and it did affect her. Like I said, she likes to please and I like to be pleased - not a good combo.


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## Guy Epp (Aug 3, 2012)

turnera said:


> She probably has toxic shame due to her upbringing. Such people bury their feelings because they believe themselves to be utterly flawed and hopeless; therefore it's easier not to feel at all than to feel pain. I've had the same feelings about love and such.


I think you hit the nail on the head. Wish I known what she though/felt/went through 15 years ago. She kept all of it inside and is just now bringing it out.


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## Guy Epp (Aug 3, 2012)

DayDream said:


> Okay okay...wait. What about a trial separation for now? Just so you each can get back to yourselves. With an agreement and commitment to not dating other people just to keep from confusing things. I mean...it's like throwing a bunch of ingredients into a pot and trying to fix it by throwing even more crap in there. How about a trip back down to zero for each of you and then you can decide what it is you want?


I have come to the same conclusion of most of you here. I proposed to her a trial separation like you mention but she didn't want to. She says to try to work things out until my family visits in September - then re-evaluate. I did move out of our room for a day but slept in my bed at night.

Believe she's making a genuine effort to make things better for me (affection, talking, etc.) but I don't know that I have it in me. Not that I don't want to, but am afraid of repeating the whole thing again a year or two down the road. 

Have 20-30 years left on earth - want to be happy.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Than don't separate and give it try. Take a read, if your serious, see what a real marriage looks like.

His Needs, Her Needs: by Willard F. Jr. Harley 

Amazon.com: His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-Proof Marriage (9780800719388): Willard F. Jr. Harley: Books

Wish you both well.


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## Guy Epp (Aug 3, 2012)

turnera said:


> You've held a kiss against her from while you were engaged? Seriously? She grew up in an abusive household, was raped, and you hold a kiss against her?
> 
> Do you want to know the #1 issue I see in your marriage? It's one that won't get fixed easily or quickly but, if you address it, you can have a great marriage together.
> 
> ...


I never knew of the family situation - she kept it secret from me for years. Her family doesn't speak about it. The Kiss planted a seed of doubt through my whole marriage until I told her about it (at the same time she told me about her family issues.)

She told me a couple of days ago that she didn't feel safe around me. Your analysis rings true. I think you are spot on.

Because she has been living a lie (and have been lied to) I don't know that we have a healthy future together. I want her to love me, not the security or stability of being married. Don't know that she can do that holding on to all she has held on for so long. 

Little things like "pass the salt" or getting up to warm soup she interprets as "criticism" to the point where she quit cooking. Which then leads to me complaining she doesn't cook. When people find out I do the cooking I say "yes, I cook. She doesn't cook at all". Which shames her and causes her to resent me for "humilliating" her in public.

I've just learned all of this in the last week. I'm ADD so I don't perceive a lot of social cues - which hasn't helped.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Guy Epp said:


> Little things like "pass the salt" or getting up to warm soup she interprets as "criticism" to the point where she quit cooking.


Boy, have I BTDT. My husband used to come behind me and mow after I did, because my lines weren't good enough. Stopped mowing. I can't handle ANYthing negative he says nowadays cos my inner critic just tears me apart. That's why she needs IC. 

Understand, though, that it has nothing at all to do with whether she does, or can, love you. Two separate things.


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## Guy Epp (Aug 3, 2012)

turnera said:


> Boy, have I BTDT. My husband used to come behind me and mow after I did, because my lines weren't good enough. Stopped mowing. I can't handle ANYthing negative he says nowadays cos my inner critic just tears me apart. That's why she needs IC.
> 
> Understand, though, that it has nothing at all to do with whether she does, or can, love you. Two separate things.


I was looking at her two weeks ago and she said "what's wrong?". I told her I wasn't sure if I wanted to have "this conversation". She asked again and so I did.

In a nutshell I told her I loved her but wasn't sure she loved me (later told me face to face she wasn't in love with me - she was angry when she said that but she meant it.) I told her I wanted to move out. She countered with trying to work things out. I countered that I had two doubts: Whether she could love me again and whether I could trust her. Been talking about those two issues ever since. I've also told her that we have to "fix her" first before we could even try to fix our relationship. Admitted I wasn't sure I wanted to invest more time and energy on the relationship. She's at the point where she's questioning why she's even trying.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Hmmm. I would too, if I were her and you replied like that.


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## Guy Epp (Aug 3, 2012)

turnera said:


> Hmmm. I would too, if I were her and you replied like that.


What do you mean "like that"? On here I'm trying to be very brief for readers. This all took a couple of hours. I have learned to weigh every word very carefully. I do care for her whether I trust her or not. She the mother of my children and a wonderful person with a kind heart. My question is whether I truly want to leave her or not and whether I'm staying/leaving for the right reasons. Want to be fair to all involved, including myself and kids. From reading most of these posts it seems like a divorce is what is needed.


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## Enginerd (May 24, 2011)

Guy Epp said:


> I do love her - and believe she does me. The question is whether we are good for each other.


You need a new definition of love if your not a troll.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Guy Epp said:


> I was looking at her two weeks ago and she said "what's wrong?". I told her I wasn't sure if I wanted to have "this conversation". She asked again and so I did.
> 
> In a nutshell I told her *I loved her but wasn't sure she loved me* (later told me face to face she wasn't in love with me - she was angry when she said that but she meant it.) *I told her I wanted to move out.* She countered with trying to work things out. *I countered that I had two doubts: Whether she could love me again and whether I could trust her.* Been talking about those two issues ever since. *I've also told her that we have to "fix her" first *before we could even try to fix our relationship. Admitted *I wasn't sure I wanted to invest more time and energy* on the relationship. She's at the point where she's questioning why she's even trying.


Awful lot of what YOU think, what YOU want, what YOU are tired of, whether YOU are willing to grace her with your presence, and then...it all devolves into HER being the problem.

If I were her listening to you positing all this, I wouldn't want to be around you, either.

Let me repeat what the real problem is here - you are a bull in a china shop, she is a damaged female who doesn't trust men, and yet here you go continuing to be that bull. And now you BELIEVE that you've been given 'permission' here 'from all the posts' that you deserve to divorce her.

You haven't learned a thing.


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## Guy Epp (Aug 3, 2012)

As an update:

I took a lot of turnera's advice and perspective but not before having met another woman.

Boy, I was very infatuated with this gal and had a great time while dating her (wife knew I was going out trying to get laid). However, things changed in wive's mind when she found out there was "one" person I was dating.

She had decide whether she wanted to stay married to me or not - I had made the decision that I didn't care anymore (despite loving her.)

Long story short we decided to work it out and it has been a long 16 months with many ups and downs but I think we are on the right track.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Glad to hear it.


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