# Leadership in Marriage



## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Hey there. I have been a fairly long time member but have not posted in a while and not much at all in this section. 

My wife and I have really improved our relationship over the last few years and I think we are in the best place we have ever been. Our issues in the past have been about respect, control, trust and sex. (Wow, writing this down I think that is what most folks deal with). I think we have improved the sex quite a bit (though could be better) and trust is almost where it needs to be. We still have a bit of work to do on respect and quite a lot on control. 

The balance in our relationship is quite ironic; I am a natural leader, extrovert, enjoy healthy confrontation...enjoy my relatively high stress executive position at work. My wife, on the other hand, is pretty much the opposite in all respects. She certainly has the intellectual potential to be a leader in the workplace but we both chose that it would be best for our family for her to stay at home with the kids. The ironic thing is that she very much needs to be in control of everything; she also has OCD. This makes it VERY difficult to strike a balance in our relationship as I am naturally driven to take the helm and lead. 

Well, our relationship was fairly toxic for much of its first 15 years. I broke her trust, enabled her OCD...we lost respect...all which resulted in a sexless marriage. We are still stuck in a place where she feels compelled to have essentially complete control of everything. I think this dynamic is unconsciously preventing her from having complete respect for me (which holds back her sexual attraction I suspect). 

I am trying to take the leadership role in the relationship but this mind shift is proving to be difficult. 

My question for you is what balance have you found in this post feminist world? There is so much confusion with men thinking they need to cater to women in more non-traditional ways (cooking, cleaning, child rearing, etc), while women are fighting to be treated equally and have responsibilities shared 50/50. Unfortunately I think this is slowly killing/killed the natural attraction between the sexes and leaving both men and women totally confused as to why it is happening. 

Also, any advice you have for my personal situation is much appreciated. 

Cheers!


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Thanks LadyFrog. I really do think a shift like this would bring it home for our relationship. I honestly don't know how the conversation would go if we discussed "who leads the relationship." I could see her thinking either 50/50 or she thinks she does. I think both are recipies for failure. 

Interesting you bring up the biblical "style" of marriage. The one time we ever got close to discussing leadership in marriage was when we were talking about our vows and the bibles take on marriage. She defiantly does not subscribe to the idea of the woman being "submissive" to the man, or he man having ultimate "final say."

Trying to bridge this gap is not going to be easy. It is not like I can just go out there and say "I'm the boss" like Andy Samburg on SNL..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

LadyFrogFlyAway said:


> Hi hubby,
> 
> I can share with you what works for us in our marriage. My dh is the head of our household and family. He has the final say. He doesn't control me or tell me what to do or how to think. We share financial decisions. We discuss things and always try to come to a compromise that we can both live with. But if there is a situation where we can't/don't agree, he has the final say.
> 
> ...


Exactly what I was going to write. :smthumbup:


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

We switched places for a couple years when the kids were older. I easily did the house/cooking/shopping/laundry stuff in less than 4 hours a day while the kids were in school. WHY should she have to touch that stuff after a long day at work? 

And in reverse - while I worked hard she had the same view. 

I help my W at home. That said we wouldn't have stayed married if she had done this: "You need to do half" routine. Half of WHAT? Half of the total workload in the marriage - yes. 

As for the OCD stuff. My W is OCD. We have a simple rule of engagement: Outside the bedroom we mostly/almost completely do it her way. Because it makes her tense/edgy if we don't. AND she understands that when she is being disrespectful she is going to get humorously twisted into a pretzel until she cries uncle. Inside the bedroom - is mostly the opposite. 

I have been eating jazz apples for years. That is what we both buy when we get apples. Recently she tried a honey crisp. Loved it. MAYBE she mentioned it to me. Truly I don't know. All I know is that a few weeks ago when I returned from the grocery store with jazz apples she mildly complained that I didn't get the kind "she liked". I apologized (my default assumption on stuff like that is - the first time I might not have been paying attention). 

Following weekend I bring home Jazz and Honey Crisps. The only Honey Crisps at the store were gigantic. Way bigger than they normally are. Almost the size of cantaloupes. So she complained about how big they were. I started teasing her about being high maintenance. She got a bit annoyed. The other night I cut one up - ate 2/3 and left the 1/3. 

Next day I go in the fridge to eat my last third - and it is gone. I call her cell phone. 
ME: I had this craving for a honey crisp, and the section I left in the fridge is gone. 
Her: (embarrassed tone) Oh - umm - I ate it - sorry
ME: I have this idea for a movie script - this guy is married to triplets - he doesn't know it though. And they keep switching places. T1 she likes Jazz apples. T2 prefers Honey Crisps of all sizes. T3 - she is the REALLY high maintenance one - she ONLY likes regular size honey crisps. 
Her: Very funny
ME: Who am I speaking with please: T1, T2 or T3? Since you admit to eating my apple, I am hoping you are T2.
Her: Ok I am SORRY for being difficult
ME: (Laughing) That sounds more like irritation for being chastised - than true remorse. 
Her: Repeating that she is sorry with a sincere tone
ME: Ok

Since then I have been teasing her now and then about this. It is all in fun. And yet it is all part of keeping her self awareness at a certain level. 





hubby said:


> Hey there. I have been a fairly long time member but have not posted in a while and not much at all in this section.
> 
> My wife and I have really improved our relationship over the last few years and I think we are in the best place we have ever been. Our issues in the past have been about respect, control, trust and sex. (Wow, writing this down I think that is what most folks deal with). I think we have improved the sex quite a bit (though could be better) and trust is almost where it needs to be. We still have a bit of work to do on respect and quite a lot on control.
> 
> ...


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## resetbuttonpushed (May 13, 2012)

hubby said:


> My question for you is what balance have you found in this post feminist world? There is so much confusion with men thinking they need to cater to women in more non-traditional ways (cooking, cleaning, child rearing, etc), while women are fighting to be treated equally and have responsibilities shared 50/50. Unfortunately I think this is slowly killing/killed the natural attraction between the sexes and leaving both men and women totally confused as to why it is happening.
> 
> Also, any advice you have for my personal situation is much appreciated.
> 
> Cheers!


Regardless to me of a woman's place at home or at work, we want to feel valued and respected and as an equal. That being said, I too am a control freak, and somewhat ocd about things, they need to be a certain way (actually linear thinker is probably a better way to say it, there is a correct way, and a not correct way, and I often have to remind myself, my correct way is not someone else's including my husbands). But I do see your point because at the same time my husband (I make more money and am the career person) struggles to feel important etc because his primary responsibilities are family. So i make it a point to let him know I (emphasis on I) need his masculine side, and he lets me know he needs my feminine side. The trick is to do this in as you said, a balance... it's tricky and what works for one couple does not work for others. What works for us, is I make sure to leave the hard household things for him, even if I feel like I could do it, and there are some things he leaves for me (that I guess would be typical gender roles). But make sure to still treat your wife as a lady... just because we want to be an equal mind, does not mean that we don't want you to still cherish, and love, and be a little romantic once in a while. Find that balance with your wife, talk to her and see where you can meet in the middle.


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## waiwera (Sep 8, 2009)

We have some roles that are very traditional... I do almost all the cleaning and cooking and looking after sick kids etc..
H earns the bulk of the $$$, lifts heavy things and rocks a tool belt.

But as far a decision making goes...it depends on the topic. For somethings he's the 'expert' other things it's me.
I'm not about to tell him how to build the new bathroom... he doesn't tell me how to deal with the sick duck or the bee swarm hanging in the peach tree. Finances we both suck at but were working on that. We do respect each others strengths and abilities.. between the two of us we know a bit about a lot of stuff 

We seem to be wanting the same things in life. We think the same on religion, marriage, families, politics etc... so we rarely butt heads.

If it REALLY came down to it... I guess I would back down and support him on a big issue though. 
This situation hasn't cropped for us so far.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

H,
You need to select the short list of things that are important to you. And then she needs to work with you on those and you can let her drive the rest of it. 

If I tried to "lead" on paint colors, furniture choices etc. we would have a train wreck instead of a happy marriage. 

On kid stuff it is always a joint decision. On house stuff - she leads. On how we spend recreational time together it is joint though I tend to let her pick restaurants and movies more often than I do. As for her "tone" when she speaks to me - it is either the same respectful tone I use with her - or we get into it immediately. That might be in a humorous way - or not so. But it gets addressed every time. And because of that it is not a frequent thing. 

When I know something is important to her, I try to "make it work" whatever it is. 

*My W treats sex with the same level of importance I assign to it because she knows it is important to me. In fact the words - THIS is very important to me - spoken by either of us - immediately get the others full and undivided attention* 




hubby said:


> Thanks LadyFrog. I really do think a shift like this would bring it home for our relationship. I honestly don't know how the conversation would go if we discussed "who leads the relationship." I could see her thinking either 50/50 or she thinks she does. I think both are recipies for failure.
> 
> Interesting you bring up the biblical "style" of marriage. The one time we ever got close to discussing leadership in marriage was when we were talking about our vows and the bibles take on marriage. She defiantly does not subscribe to the idea of the woman being "submissive" to the man, or he man having ultimate "final say."
> 
> ...


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Does she actually have obsessive compulsive disorder? Or do you mean she likes to be in control? Because they're not the same thing. OCD is a real psychological disorder that needs behaviour management therapy and/or medication. 

My husband and I each take the lead on the things we are best at/most interested in/hate least. So he does all our financial stuff and is basically the spending gate keeper. I make the majority of the parenting decisions, as well as most of the day to day house stuff. He works full time, I work part time. The important thing is that we each have veto power over the other's decisions. Any big purchase is discussed, any major change is discussed and agreed upon. I actually can't think of anything major in our lives that we have had intractable opposing viewpoints on, so the veto power has never really been used.

Our relationship feels very equal in power to me. I do acquiesce to his decisions on our financial management because I have total trust and respect for his abilities. He does the same with me when it comes to our girls' education. 

We treat each other with total respect, if it's important to him, it's important to me and vice versa.
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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Thanks for all the responses folks. 

My wife is actually diagnosed with OCD. 

A little history: Things were EXTREMELY bad during the few years before marriage and the first 10 years of marriage. At the worst, i had to do all the checking for her, she could not handle it. I literally spent 6hrs a day checking doors, locks, outlets, windows, cracks, holes, you name it. I was the ultimate enabler thinking this was how I was supposed to "love and support" her in "sickness and in health." All this really did was make it progressively worse for her, she lost complete respect for me and I became numb.

We tried the counseling and medication route. That only left her stuck in the bedroom, numb to the world, absolutely no libido and I still checked for her upon request. Through much research, we have GREATLY improved the situation and can manage the compulsions through adjustments to behavior. 

Fast forward to today: I spend maybe 5 minutes a day with her checking things. She probably spends about 30 mins on her own a day, so by the definition of OCD, it is not impacting her ability to function. That said, it is a constant struggle. 

The OCD spills into the little things and that is where we have our issues. She will tell me when I need to wash my hands, how long they need to be washed, things like that. When she "asks" me to do thinks such as these...quite a fire of furry ignites inside me that I have learned to control and communicate somewhat effectively. 

Let me give you an example of how this impacts leadership and respect in our marriage. One of my passions in life is tinkering and modifying my car. My wife absolutely hates it. Much of the reason for that distain is her lack of trust in me to make the right decisions on my car; she feels ultimately that I will blow it up or create some excess risk of danger. Early on, before i realized how important respect is to a relationship, I found myself hiding my little car projects to avoid the enviable fights it would cause...bad move...I know. 

When things got better between us I made a promise that I would discuss any "modifications" to the car. So I purchased a $15 part the other day that was an easy fix. She saw that I opened the box and proceeded with the Inquisition:

DW: Hey hun, what was in that box?
DH: A little part for the car, no big deal. 
DW: What was it?
DH: It was a $15 sensor, don't worry about it...will take me 10 minutes to fix. 
DW: What is the sensor for? You did not talk to me before you purchased this!
DH: This is not a problem babe, this is not a "modification", it is a brake wear sensor, let's move on. 
DW: This is a f**king modification and you promised to ask me first, you broke my trust. 
This is when we passed the point of no return and my rage took over...the verbal sparring mach was on...

I ended up telling her that the promise that I made to discuss any purchases before hand was a bad decision on my part and that I was going to have to recall the promise. It was not working, we could not argue each time (before or after purchase) on what a "modification" was. It was killing my passion for the car and my passion with her. We have more than enough $$$ to buy 4 or 5 new cars if I messed something up, even though my track record of 1000s of hours under the hood playing never resulted in any significant problems. 

This little example is one of many, and illustrates a lack of trust and respect as well as desire for control. Ultimately these result is a poor sexual relationship (at times I see her as a b**tch and she sees me as weak) with my wife which is my ultimate passion in life. 

We are both intelligent, strong willed individuals who want to do what is best for our relationship. I think I see a path to success but changing the tides of balance is going to take some trial and error.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

You, Your Spouse and OCD: Three's a Crowd | Beyond OCD
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Hubby I understand where your comming from. I have ocd myself so my own hubby and I are dealing with it day by day. Just for the record though, I have never lost respect for him when he checks locks, the kids, ect. In fact I actually have gained respect for him because of the patience he has shown when it comes to my ocd.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Gaia said:


> You, Your Spouse and OCD: Three's a Crowd | Beyond OCD
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks Gaia, that was a good read.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

It certainly helps hubby and I when we read stuff like this together. Hope it helped you. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

And the fun begins today...just 5 mins after she wakes up 

So this is how we roll on the weekend mornings: kids wake up about 7ish and they come downstairs to watch TV/cuddle a bit. DW and I try to sleep in but the rustle in the living room slowly turns into a dull roar. That is when I step in as the silencer. I get out of bed to make them some breakfast and keep them quiet so DW can get another 2hrs of sleepy time. 

I use every weapon in my arsenal to keep the the Db levels from these Tasmanian Devils below the legal limit. Today my artillery was the kids' costumes we keep in the closet in the living room. Well, I did not clean the mess of cloths up by the time DW awoke from her Mother's Day morning slumber... and she made sure I knew it. How dare I not take one costume out at a time so that I would know which costume goes on the right hanger. By her tone, I think she implied that I was to call up Mr. Obama and have him include instructions on proper costume storage and usage in his Sunday morning address. 

I responded with the simple goal of trying to understand what she wanted in this not so insignificant part of the circle of life. Obviously having costumes amass the living room floor was somehow different than having a Google of toys litter the floor like I see sometimes when I get home from work (it was probably not a good idea to point that out). I asked what was the import of only allowing one costume out at a time and not letting the kids figure out how to fend for themselves. Apparently there is a high risk of paper cuts as she does not want them hurt on the filing cabinet inside. Also, it is a bit cramped in there so there is a risk of them twisting their ankle...have you seen these three terrors on the jungle gym! I should be clear that her reasons where "they can get hurt with the filing cabinet and clutter in there", the rest is just my internal dialogue. 

This discussion progressed/heated up and apparently I have made a bad start to Mother's Day despite my only goal for the first two hours of it to be her getting to sleep in a little. 

This probably seems a bit trivial...and it really is...but you accumulate at least two to three of these banters a day and you can't help but wear down respect for each other at some level. 

All is right with the world now though...I think she just needed to get her coffee. Totally understandable


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Did you point out to her that you were trying to keep the kids occupied so she could sleep in?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Gaia said:


> Did you point out to her that you were trying to keep the kids occupied so she could sleep in?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, probably a few too many times. She proceeded to advise there is relative scale of cost/benefit between my methods to keep them quiet and the resulting cleanup of the aftermath. I am working on a predictable algorithm and plan to file a patent with the Office.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Lol well one thing my hubby does when I get like that is... he says he knows he isn't perfect, he knows he has faults but he is trying his best. He then tells me to relax, says I love you, gives me a kiss, then proceeds to clean any mess he made. of course when I see him do this right after showing me affection I have the urge to help him and I apoligize for freaking out about the matter. You know, you and your wife should take the five languages of love quiz when you can. I think it could also help you both to understand and communicate better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Interesting how this thread is somewhat parallel to the "Woman are emotional..." I may be missing the bigger picture. Maybe I, as the Man, just need to just shut up and do as I am told on these matters. They actually are not that important to me (talking about my car modifications or methods of cleaning up costumes). What is important is the massive feeling of disrespect and the feeling that I am somehow living in a Tron-like game where my DW is in charge of the "joy stick."


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Gaia said:


> Lol well one thing my hubby does when I get like that is... he says he knows he isn't perfect, he knows he has faults but he is trying his best. He then tells me to relax, says I love you, gives me a kiss, then proceeds to clean any mess he made. of course when I see him do this right after showing me affection I have the urge to help him and I apoligize for freaking out about the matter. You know, you and your wife should take the five languages of love quiz when you can. I think it could also help you both to understand and communicate better.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks. Will try that, the kiss and the love languages.

Maybe when she gets back from her massage and 5 courses at The Melting Pot she will be more receptive. I will encourage her to have a few extra Love Martinis.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

She does need to know how you feel so just shutting up about it would be bad imo. You both just need to find a way to communicate better with one another. Good luck and I hope the quiz helps a bit. You could also try playing lovepong with eachother. That could help too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

H,
You are right that your ground rules need to change. The fact that two sentences into an argument your W is using the F bomb shows huge respect issues.

As for washing your hands - I don't know anything about true - medically official OCD - if you aren't about to to touch her it sounds off, if you are....

H, 
Your issue is not about leadership. You are merely trying to not be treated like her servant. 

I think you talk way too much. If it had been me - and I had let her sleep 2 extra hours and she came down and right away got into the costumes. 
I would have just said "don't let me stop you" and pointed to them. Meaning if it is such a big deal, pick them up yourself if you are going to launch the day with hostility instead of "thanks for watching the kids".

But you don't offer the explanation. Just the "don't let me stop you"

Same with most of this. The more you
- talk
- explain
- get angry
The more you feed the monster. 

And the reason you get angry is you seek her approval - and her irrational disapproval infuriates you. 

UNTIL your ENTIRE approval system is SELF DRIVEN, your marriage won't really improve.

Self driven does not mean you don't listen to others. It means you mKe the final determination about what you will and won't accept from others and yourself.

Read your initial post. You want to persuade your wife to let you lead. When I lead - in areas where I excel - I ask no ones permission. 




hubby said:


> Yes, probably a few too many times. She proceeded to advise there is relative scale of cost/benefit between my methods to keep them quiet and the resulting cleanup of the aftermath. I am working on a predictable algorithm and plan to file a patent with the Office.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Gaia said:


> She does need to know how you feel so just shutting up about it would be bad imo. You both just need to find a way to communicate better with one another. Good luck and I hope the quiz helps a bit. You could also try playing lovepong with eachother. That could help too.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That lovepong looks neat. DW and I actually find it sometimes more effective to write out our issues via email so this could work well for us. 

Good find Gaia!


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Good and I do agree with mem that you do need to be shown more respect but I highly doubt saying "don't let me stop you" will work. That could make it esculate further but do try different approaches and see what works for you both.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

MEM11363 said:


> But you don't offer the explanation. Just the "don't let me stop you"
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks Mem. I will try that approach...not sure it will elicit the desired result but I will try anything once.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Gaia said:


> She does need to know how you feel so just shutting up about it would be bad imo. You both just need to find a way to communicate better with one another. Good luck and I hope the quiz helps a bit. You could also try playing lovepong with eachother. That could help too.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Classic! Of course I got excited for the Lovepong. Went in and registered and it's asks for DW email...I proceed with supplying all the necessary info. 

I guess it sends an email to her...doh!

This is the response I just got from her:
"Can you not do this to me today? Trying to relax. "

Granted she is at the spa right now...we'll see how this goes...


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

I like the way Athol explains this. Captain and the First Officer. Our decisions are made jointly. However on very rare occasions I have had to take the helm.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

hubby said:


> Classic! Of course I got excited for the Lovepong. Went in and registered and it's asks for DW email...I proceed with supplying all the necessary info.
> 
> I guess it sends an email to her...doh!
> 
> ...


Lol I hope it works out for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Gaia,
You make a fair point. My suggestion was poor. I have found that smiling and saying "thanks for watching the kids and letting me sleep in" in a friendly tone works well. And it is not sarcastic when I say it. It truly reflects exactly what:
1. I would say to her if she had just let me sleep in
2. The way I wish to be spoken to 

It is also true that I know my wife well. So if costumes on the floor would bother her, after we said hello and hugged I would tell the kids it was time to clean up. 

Note: this approach has me managing "me" and the kids. I have made a statement as to what I prefer her to do. I accept that she may grasp that later or in the moment.

If she chooses to continue to be combative, which is rare, I am quiet and/or go elsewhere.

I can't directly control her and have no wish to. I will however enforce my boundaries by disengaging and or disappearing.

I believe hubby has tolerated so much bad behavior for so long he doesn't even grasp that their rules of engagement (cursing is a huge red flag from a respect point) are broken, don't exist, or are ignored. 

As for the car. If it is "his car for him" she has no basis for any comment. If they all drive in it and she has a safety OCD, that is more difficult.

Truly though - "thanks for xyz " followed by a determined refusal to get sucked into a petty argument works well with most folks. A key part of that has to be the willingness to walk away when being shown continued disrespect and the self control not to initiate make up when you are he injured party.
It 

QUOTE=Gaia;743818]Good and I do agree with mem that you do need to be shown more respect but I highly doubt saying "don't let me stop you" will work. That could make it esculate further but do try different approaches and see what works for you both.
_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Honestly, everything you describe sounds like part of her mental illness. I suffer from this too. The irrational anger responses are an anxiety attack. I can relate to the two examples you provided, the hand washing - telling H when to wash, for how long - I have a severe fear of illness. To the point that I have a fear of contamination. That means even the people I love the most can be part of the contamination that I fear, and if I feel my husband will compromise my safe haven in some way by being unclean my anxiety is turned on him in this way - being crazy about his hand washing. The costumes - relate to that too. Many of my "must be done this way" things are not rooted in any relational reason. I have particular ways things need to be stored or put away to keep my anxiety in check. If those things are disrupted past a certain point, my anxiety kicks in and you may see a reaction similar to what you had this morning. Generally I have a tolerance threshold. If a few costumes were out, pr had been hung incorrectly, I can handle that. To see them all in a heap in the floor would be too much.

I do not think a normal person can understand. I know that I have a broken mind and own that, and own that the things that send me over the edge are not something a person without mental illness would even see or realize. In situations like your morning this morning, the best we have managed to keep peace in our marriage is I will simply walk away and take a few muns to collect myself. I often need to be left alone to talk myself down from the panic attack then I will quietly return and out everything away in its correct place.

My whole point is that you have to stop responding to the illness expecting reason and practical solutions. Nothing about it allows room for reason. Your best plan of attack is to learn not to take things so personally, recognize when the illness is talking, be calm and allow her the space she needs to get over it. Do not engage her or try to argue with her. Its a losing battle.
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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

I know that, in my case, that my STBXW made it a point to jump all over my case, equally for arguing with or questioning her; and really just as much for even trying to avoid an argument with her.

Very emblematic of the old line "damned if you do, damned if you don't," I'd richly say!


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Thanks for the feedback Keg. In a way, you in Mem have a similar approach: calmly address/respond and walk away to give her time to reflect and then apologize if necessary. 

Keg, what is your approach to shared rituals? For example, before we leave the house, we both spend about 15 mins checking doors, locks, stoves, outlets, irons, appliances, etc. Then when we return, we spend about 10 minutes checking the car; air conditioning, radio, headlights, interior lights, parking break, windows, locks, etc. These are pretty much our only remaining rituals, not too bad considering where we were in the past.

That said, I can't help but feel majorly disrespected for not being trusted, listened to, or just general lack of concern for my sanity.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Welcome back hubby. Was always impressed by the amount, and degree of work you so obviously put into recovering your marriage; certainly when you were posting about the intimacy issues.

I don't know much about clinical OCD. But I do know plenty about the erosion of respect and how that affects relationship dynamics.

So ... this is strictly my narrowly informed opinion based upon what you have outlined.

I also think there are some serious respect issues.
Your story reminded me of a very recent event with my ex. We get along very well. We were in one of those positive moments and she looked at me and said, "I still haven't forgiven you for abandoning me."
Quick translation overview: ex had a crappy childhood. Was adopted by emotionally abusive parents ... who would threaten to send her away if she misbehaved. Huge abandonment issues.

I moved out in 08 as a result of an ever increasing emotional, responsibility, respect and intimacy deficit. Made it clear that was my intention as she continued her lack of movement on any of those issues.
She took her abandonment issues, and turned to another man ... immediately.

So ... in effect, this is what I heard: "You know I have issues. Yet you ignored them and did what you wanted to do. So all of this that has happened to us? Is your fault."

I responded with a genuine smile and said. "Well I hope you can someday. More for yourself than for me, because I forgave you for everything ... a long time ago."

Guess what I'm trying to articulate ... perhaps poorly ... is that I don't give anyone a free pass. Not anymore. Mental illness, sh!tty childhood or what have you. It most certainly sounds like your wife would PREFER to focus on your failures, shortcomings, inadequacy, intolerance or lack of understanding about HER illness. And that sure takes the pressure off her. This is what my ex used to do all of the time.

I got tired of being the one to jump through hoops to keep the peace. And to me, quite tellingly, the moment I stopped, the entire house of cards came down.

To me, it would be great if your wife could recognize the effort you make to support her and her condition. Would be nice if she could take that misdirected anxiety and anger and see the flip-side of what you do BECAUSE you love her.

I don't know how you get there without being willing to throw down and take it as far and as deep as it needs to go ... OCD or no, she should be able to recognize the support you do show her, rather than seeing it as your price to pay if you want her to stick around.

I'm not suggesting you blow up your marriage.

Not sure I've said anything useful at all, other than your post struck me. Made me remember my own circumstances. And the decision that I came to. That nobody ... ever ... gets a free pass for behaving badly towards me. They get called on it. Every, single, time.


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## cory275 (Aug 11, 2011)

"My question for you is what balance have you found in this post feminist world? There is so much confusion with men thinking they need to cater to women in more non-traditional ways (cooking, cleaning, child rearing, etc), while women are fighting to be treated equally and have responsibilities shared 50/50. Unfortunately I think this is slowly killing/killed the natural attraction between the sexes and leaving both men and women totally confused as to why it is happening."

i couldnt agree with you more!!! feminism is great for single women.. but it's so hard in marriages. too many cooks in the kitchen.. too many hands in the cookie jar... it's just a never ending power struggle. and more times than not... women just start yacking to try and prove they're in on the power battle. there's just constant complaining all the time and for no real reason. i dont understand women who do this. do they think that's an attractive quality to their husbands? or to anyone for that matter?? pick your battles, ladies!

i LOVE this topic... and i LOVED the apple story MEM11363 told. your approach at dealing with these small things is awesome. it reminds me a lot of how my hubs and i interact day to day. 

in other posts i've been accused of stepping back into the 50's with my views on marriage responsibilities. i dont really get that.. but here goes. 

in my head there does need to be some sort of 50/50 dynamic. you cant have both people work their asses of during the week and only have one person bust their ass when they get home. in my house my hubs brings home most of the bacon.. i cook it. DO NOT ask me to work 9 hours a day on my feet and expect me to cook or clean a damn thing when i get home. so if i feel that way... why would i expect anything different from someone else??

i work 30 hours a week... and i get 3 days off in a week. one day i spend entirely with my husband and we just hang out or do whatever. my other off days are for cooking and cleaning. i cook the whole week's food in one day and just reheat whatever he wants that i've made. i do dishes whenever i need to, but taking things out of the dishwasher and putting it 3 feet away isnt that serious to me. i do our landry once a week and then i'm done. it took me about a year to get used to being a wife and taking care of a husband (feeding, cleaning up after, blah blah..), but we've found a balance that works well for us.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Well isn't this just peachy. First she yells at me in the morning after I make the kids breakfast and let her sleep in a few hours (as I do EVERY weekend morning). Send her of to the spa with her sister, her mother and my mother and then to a four course meal at the melting pot. Both if these I paid for everyone...shelling out a decent amount of cash. 

She comes home and jumps on my case for sending her an invite to a communication improvement site that someone so graciously suggested here today. 

Then, continues to say that my me refusing to ask permission/discuss any car purchases before hand was a complete betrayal of my promise and she does not trust me anymore. 

I quickly informed her that this is in no uncertain terms a deal breaker for me. We are adults and do not need permission to live our lives and I will not live with someone who does not respect or trust me. 

Just a terrific day.

At this point I have very little motivation to put up with either her OCD rituals or her general controlling BS. She can share that and all her other baggage with someone else. I have a life to live. 

I am just rambling a bit here but I am done with this BS. It will change one way or the other.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

I am thinking of just forwarding a link of this thread over to DW...

Edit:
F it. I just sent her the link...hope she reads. If so, happy Mother's Day hun. I love you and want to make this work.

Feel free to post here as well. There are quite a few threads by me in some of the other sections if you are feeling brave...it's all there in black and white...I have nothing to hide 

Edit 2:
Well that flew over like a pile of bricks. She told me not throw "my s**t in her face" referring to asking her to read where I have poured my heart out...nice...real nice. It appears that she would rather me just discuss it right to her face...that's fine. I made it really simple for her: I will not, and will never again, be told what to do. I advised her that the pendulum may swing to the other side of equal as it has sat with heavy weight for so long at the other extreme but that I anticipate karma will balance things out in the end.

She did read the title of the thread and at least we have one thing clear...she "will NOT be LEAD. This is a partnership and we share each responsibility equally." Neither one of us has unilateral decision making power in any particular decision. God help us be awesome compromisers.


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## cory275 (Aug 11, 2011)

it's hard for me to relate to the kind of person your wife is. she just seems mean. if my hubs did any of those things for me i'd swoon.. let alone for my mom!! i get giggly when my hubs brings me a sandwich home without me having to ask for it. 

but the buying a car without telling me thing... that might be crossing the line. one time i made a cashier's check for a customer for like $80,000 made out to "porshe of atlanta"... and he told me "yeah, the wife is probably gonna have a heart attack" well.. DUH!! you just dropped $80k! on a stupid car! they only go down in value, and if you buy new you're an idiot.. an if you buy used you must be VERY careful. there's lots of issues that make car buying a big deal. 

i wonder if your wife had done what you did and bought a car without telling you what your reaction would be. 

it sounds like there's a lot of selfishness in your own ways. you're too selfish to involve your wife on large purchases or even consider her opinion on something for the family, and she's too selfish (or proud may be a better word) to show any appreciation to you.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

cory275 said:


> it's hard for me to relate to the kind of person your wife is. she just seems mean. if my hubs did any of those things for me i'd swoon.. let alone for my mom!! i get giggly when my hubs brings me a sandwich home without me having to ask for it.
> 
> but the buying a car without telling me thing... that might be crossing the line. one time i made a cashier's check for a customer for like $80,000 made out to "porshe of atlanta"... and he told me "yeah, the wife is probably gonna have a heart attack" well.. DUH!! you just dropped $80k! on a stupid car! they only go down in value, and if you buy new you're an idiot.. an if you buy used you must be VERY careful. there's lots of issues that make car buying a big deal.
> 
> ...


Cory, totally understand where you are coming from if that was what you were thinking on the car thing. Just to clarify, we were arguing over a $13 part...I am not forgetting any zeros. That is like 0.0000000001% of my income (insert exaggeration emoticon here). On car purchases, I had to beg her to drop $33K on a used bimmer. It was a great deal and I negotiated it way below blue book with a 100k mile CPO warranty. I even got it in automatic just so she could drive it! For any car enthusiast out there that LOVE to DRIVE and have always driven a manual...they would say I handed in my Man card on that one.

Just to answer your question, if she did buy a car without telling me, I would be fine with it as long as it was nothing extravagant. I would actually find it quite sexy if she was that assertive and bold. Maybe that is just me talking as she could never do that.


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## cory275 (Aug 11, 2011)

sorry hubby... i thought when you said "car purchases" that you were talking about the whole car. 

yeah.. i'm just gonna go back to what i said initially. your wife just seems mean. who's gonna argue about 13 bucks? ESPECIALLY when you didnt even earn the 13 bucks?? i dont see how she can even twist that to make it about her not trusting you?? 

i'm sure it's frustrating having OCD for real, but taking it out on eachother just isnt productive. sometimes when my hubs is mean to me he's upset about something else and he takes it out on me. one time i got yelled at for plugging in his phone to the car charger... but after he tells me what's really bothering him he feels better after he talks about it. maybe something else is really bothering her. some trauma or something you can think of? 

hope yall work it out... you seem like a really good person.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Hubby,

Deep, deep, deep breath. I have been as angry as you are now. It is a poor frame for decision making. 

Lets start with: You are right. She is treating you horribly and you should not accept that on an open end basis. We are in agreement in "concept" on that. 

The difficult part is what comes next. I am 100 percent certain that if I had been an invisible spectator in your house for the last few months I would have had a DAILY list of items that your W does which are toxic to YOU and to a loving mutually respectful marriage. And my guess is that some of them you responded to aggressively and others you let go since full throttle conflict is exhausting AND since there is likely some subtle (or blatant) use of sex as a carrot and stick in the marriage. 

Here is why that context is so important. Your W has been treating you in an overall bad way, and tolerating a small amount of sex with you (but it seems like a big improvement to you because you were sexless so long). Instead of steadily and firmly asserting your boundaries WITHOUT losing your temper, you have been alternately fighting and avoiding conflict. And with that as a backdrop you did a MASSIVELY generous mothers day routine and she kicked you in the face ALL DAY. But the truth is that you don't like how she treats you. So mothers day should have been a card and a hug. And thats it. 

Your UBER GENEROUS Mother's Day gifts made her think:
1. He loves me AND
*2. He loves how I treat him overall*

(2) is false. But you have lead her to believe that (2) is TRUE by your behavior. This sudden fury and take it to the edge response is not consistent with everything else you have done. 

A long time ago I realized that I cannot make my W do MORE. No one can. I can however very conciously choose to align my level of effort with hers. And I certainly can choose to freeze her out completely if she is being toxic - at least until she comes to her senses. And if not - not. She would say verbatim the same thing as I am about to: 
*I would rather be alone, than with someone who takes my love for granted and is cruel to me*

When she is being not nice - I start doing a lot less. She knows that - so it rarely even happens. 




hubby said:


> I am thinking of just forwarding a link of this thread over to DW...
> 
> Edit:
> F it. I just sent her the link...hope she reads. If so, happy Mother's Day hun. I love you and want to make this work.
> ...


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Thanks Cory. I am sure we will work it out. There could be issues deep down that she has with me and I hope we figure them out. One thing is for sure, no sex for me for quite some time. It will be just Mrs. Palmer and her five fingers for the foreseeable future. 

The thing is she has a REALLY great heart. She is room mom for all three of the kids' classes, she takes a bazillion pictures and is working on the end of the year class DVD. She handled all three teacher appreciation weeks amazingly. She is also the resident amateur baker for the neighborhood, school and my team at work.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Great, great post Mem. 

If I take anything from this thread is that I need to have calm, unwavering assertiveness over my boundaries. I also need to make sure the love bank is in some sort of balance between the two of us...keep the deposits in line with the withdraws.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Step 1: accept that her hostile, angry behavior is not about you. The simplest measure of success is to track how often HER awful behavior makes you furious/depressed. 
The best way to accomplish this is a journal. Start by making a list of your repetitive conflicts. Decide how you will handle each in advance. 

It is perfectly fine to have a script you use if YOU feel too angry/upset to be constructive. It needs to be short and then if she attempts to continue you need to leave. 

But mostly if you can keep it together, every response is very, very short and calm and clear.

If a pattern is that she is hostile without warning, you need to have a response that is a warning but not a deliberate escalation.

Could be a calm "your tone and comments are not acceptable"

As for this OCD routine. I is very interesting. Your wife puts the kids, their school, volunteering, etc. all ahead of prioritizing you, and clearly she doesn't scream obscenities at other adults at school when her OCD triggers there. Why is she able to manage adult, constructive behavior with adults at school but not with you?

And why is it ok for her to ignore the 10 nice things you did and hammer you for the one wrong thing?

You mention an expected sexual freeze. Why are you even thinking of sex? If you don't get the cursing, sense of entitlement, generally bullying behavior under control, why would you even want to have sex? 

I would write her a short letter laying out what is and is not acceptable behavior. And I would politely explain that until she gets the hyper aggressive behavior under control, you are goof to limit your interactions to those that you feel obligated to - like going to work and helping with the kids.

Hubby, I learned something very important in year one with my wife. She truly believed that if she was really upset that made I ok to do "almost anything".

I love my wife. And part of loving her is helping her manage her demons and strengthen her angels. To do that I needed to be very clear and firm on boundaries. When she realized that the nice guy who loved her would leave if not shown the same respect she expected, she aligned her behavior with the golden rule. 

I imagine your wife is going to attempt to bully you into making the first move towards ending hostilities. 

Don't. Just go about your day as if she was away on vacation. And for the moment, stop with the door, locks, routine, or at least your part of it. She needs to get a glimpse of what a post hubby world is like without you throwing out the D word in anger. Your catering to her while she treats you worse than school acquaintances is reinforcing her aggression.




OTE=hubby;744326]Great, great post Mem. 

If I take anything from this thread is that I need to have calm, unwavering assertiveness over my boundaries. I also need to make sure the love bank is in some sort of balance between the two of us...keep the deposits in line with the withdraws.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Cory,
That is wonderful. Great balance, both feel fairly treated. Hats off to you.




QUOTE=cory275;744160]"My question for you is what balance have you found in this post feminist world? There is so much confusion with men thinking they need to cater to women in more non-traditional ways (cooking, cleaning, child rearing, etc), while women are fighting to be treated equally and have responsibilities shared 50/50. Unfortunately I think this is slowly killing/killed the natural attraction between the sexes and leaving both men and women totally confused as to why it is happening."

i couldnt agree with you more!!! feminism is great for single women.. but it's so hard in marriages. too many cooks in the kitchen.. too many hands in the cookie jar... it's just a never ending power struggle. and more times than not... women just start yacking to try and prove they're in on the power battle. there's just constant complaining all the time and for no real reason. i dont understand women who do this. do they think that's an attractive quality to their husbands? or to anyone for that matter?? pick your battles, ladies!

i LOVE this topic... and i LOVED the apple story MEM11363 told. your approach at dealing with these small things is awesome. it reminds me a lot of how my hubs and i interact day to day. 

in other posts i've been accused of stepping back into the 50's with my views on marriage responsibilities. i dont really get that.. but here goes. 

in my head there does need to be some sort of 50/50 dynamic. you cant have both people work their asses of during the week and only have one person bust their ass when they get home. in my house my hubs brings home most of the bacon.. i cook it. DO NOT ask me to work 9 hours a day on my feet and expect me to cook or clean a damn thing when i get home. so if i feel that way... why would i expect anything different from someone else??

i work 30 hours a week... and i get 3 days off in a week. one day i spend entirely with my husband and we just hang out or do whatever. my other off days are for cooking and cleaning. i cook the whole week's food in one day and just reheat whatever he wants that i've made. i do dishes whenever i need to, but taking things out of the dishwasher and putting it 3 feet away isnt that serious to me. i do our landry once a week and then i'm done. it took me about a year to get used to being a wife and taking care of a husband (feeding, cleaning up after, blah blah..), but we've found a balance that works well for us.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

hubby said:


> Great, great post Mem.
> 
> If I take anything from this thread is that I need to have calm, unwavering assertiveness over my boundaries. I also need to make sure the love bank is in some sort of balance between the two of us...keep the deposits in line with the withdraws.


Sounds like your wife could really use some counseling and anger management. I hope your doing better today hubby and I hope she opens up her eyes to all the good things you do instead of remaining focused on the negative.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

I want to apologise for my original post in this thread. I did assume that Hubby meant that his wife liked things a certain way and was controlling, which is usually what people mean when they say someone is OCD, and I find it insulting and annoying. Thank you for explaining your situation so graciously.

Anyway, to me, most if not all, of what you have said sounds directly related to her mental illness. Maybe there are some new programs or a better therapist who could help. I do think withdrawing your participation from her rituals and controls might help, as hopefully she will realize she needs to get help and work on this for herself. Maybe there's a better anti-anxiety medication?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Hubby,

Be very careful here. I am not questioning whether her OCD is a valid medical condition. It IS. But the way I would baseline the way she responds to stress is very simple. 

Who does she treat well and how does she react to them when she is stressed? If your W is capable of managing her anxiety and anger with other adults - she is fully capable of doing the same with you. IF you allow her to blame her disease when she is treating you worse than she treats her best friends/family the other volunteers at school - you are just letting her use that as an excuse to keep screaming at you. 

As for her OCD. Is it possible that because of the GERM OCD, the hand washing stuff and all - she does NOT like sex - too germy for her? Is part of her aggression towards you that she wants to keep you the heck away so she doesn't have to deal with doing something she dislikes? 

You have a steep hill to climb. If she dislikes sex with you - she is going to CREATE conflict to avoid it. 





michiganlady said:


> Hubby:
> 
> I have to agree with the other posters who put the most emphasis on mental illness as the main contributor to your relationship issues. This is not an ordinary scenario when it comes to things like respect and power struggles. Is your wife in therapy? Would she be willing to take medication, or get involved with behavior modification? How much have you researched or aimed to understand OCD? I just had to add my two cents, because I grew up with a mother with extremely severe OCD, and a father who did not stop enabling her until well after I was an adult. He worked long hours at a stressful job, and for a while it was easier to give into what she needed to calm her anxiety (routines, etc.), but of course that set the stage for years and years of resentment and anger. Once you push back, even a little, the control that the person with OCD feels is threatened and anxiety ensues. The issue right now should be whether or not she is willing to get help. My mom was not. Please don't let your wife get to the stage where my mother has gotten. I assure you, she will only get worse over time. I personally feel that her true fault comes only if she refuses to get help. Try to see where she is coming from and recognize that a lot of her behavior is a coping mechanism.


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