# Saying NO



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Hello folks. I'm going to give you three scenarios and I'd like both the male and female perspective one each one. These are three scenarios I commonly find myself in with my fiancé. 

Our sex life is great for him, tolerable/decent for me (which is okay with me)

Anyways, I'm just looking for outside perspective. He's my one and only so he's all I have to go on, in terms of sex stuff. 

I could be unreasonable, he could be unreasonable. That's why I'm asking. 

We're both 20, if that matters any (though I have considerably more life experience) 

Scenario 1: My fiancé and I are at dinner. He starts with the footsies and I know instantly he wants some. :smthumbup:

We go home. I notice the things I'd asked him to do are (of course) not done. The dogs need to go out. The kitty litter needs changing, the dinner I spent 5 hours cooking the night before was left out on the table and spoiled...etc. Meanwhile, the second we get home he's already in the bedroom.

"Norriiiiiiiiiii...."

"In a minute." 

Ok but now I'm getting annoyed. He basically ignored my request to do anything but sit around and play X Box.

But on the other hand, he just spend 200 bucks for dinner. 

And I've read on here it's petty to not have sex over housework. 

And he planned a nice evening, right?

So this is one of those times when I'd really like to say no.

As a man in my fiancés shoes, would you be upset?

As a woman, is it unreasonable to expect him to have done *something* all day? Or is that unrelated?

We had sex, when we were done I waited till he fell asleep and then I got up and cleaned. The next morning he was in a mood because I fell asleep on the couch.

"I don't like waking up alone" ie "You're avoiding the second round"

I actually wasn't but I wasn't in any mood to be conciliatory as I found it miraculous that he had the gall to have an attitude. 

Scenario 2

It's 3 am.

"Noriiii...."

"No."

"But Noriiiiiiiii..."

"Fine."

"Well not with that attitude."

It's 3 ^&#!* AM! I have to go to school and then work (did you know swim calendars are shot in winter? random, miserable fact) 

Is this unreasonable of me?

I'm genuinely wanting an outside view.

Scenario 3 

I'm on the couch watching a movie. He's been away for a few days at some stupid (maybe stupid) camping trip/male bonding thingy.

I get up, I greet him with a kiss. He sits down to watch the movie with me.

Within ten minutes, hand on the boob. Fine, I leave it.

Hand down the panties.

"Noriiiii..." ( I swear he does actually say my name like that EVERY time, it's rather cute at times) 

"Babe, I'm watching this."

"So a movie is more important than me?"

Ok, I'm done.

All all 3 of these scenarios we ended up having sex.

I'm just wondering if it ever would've been appropriate or rude/cruel to say no.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> Hello folks. I'm going to give you three scenarios and I'd like both the male and female perspective one each one. These are three scenarios I commonly find myself in with my fiancé.
> 
> Our sex life is great for him, tolerable/decent for me (which is okay with me)
> 
> ...


For men, it can be unrelated. For women, our cognitive makeup works exactly as you've outlined. So no, it isn't unreasonable to expect him to have cleaned while you were at work. But the issue is not that simple. How we women convey our disappointment can often demotivate a man from doing what he knows is the right thing. I learned this about my husband recently. It wasn't that I was asking too much, it was how I asked it that made him not want to meet my expectations. 

I would ask him why he didn't clean the counter/kitty box in a totally non judgmental way and see what he says. 

As far as the sex goes, though, you can't expect him to meet your expectations if you don't meet his. Marriage is about mutuality. What goes for you, should go for him.



> We had sex, when we were done I waited till he fell asleep and then I got up and cleaned. The next morning he was in a mood because I fell asleep on the couch.
> 
> "I don't like waking up alone" ie "You're avoiding the second round"
> 
> ...


No, it's not unreasonable. But merely saying "No" is _not_ the way to handle it. That is an outright rejection for him, even though you said yes earlier. Try rolling over, kissing his cheek and saying something like, "Babe, I have school tomorrow and I'm really sleepy. I love you, but could we postpone?" Saying no and then giving up is NOT healthy for either of you.



> Scenario 3
> 
> I'm on the couch watching a movie. He's been away for a few days at some stupid (maybe stupid) camping trip/male bonding thingy.
> 
> ...


The way you say no is quite rude, to be honest. Most men understand that their wives aren't going to want it every time they do, so to say no sometimes isn't a bad thing. But how you say it goes along way, and even just on the text, I can tell you don't like sex. 

Secondly, your fiance wants to know you missed him. If my husband was gone for a whole twenty-four hours, the first thing I would do is jump him as soon as he walked in the door. Your fiance sounded like he wanted to know how much you missed him, so perhaps showing him a little oral action or hand action when he came home, instead of finishing the movie, would have gone over good too?


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> For men, it can be unrelated. For women, our cognitive makeup works exactly as you've outlined. So no, it isn't unreasonable to expect him to have cleaned while you were at work. But the issue is not that simple. How we women convey our disappointment can often demotivate a man from doing what he knows is the right thing. I learned this about my husband recently. It wasn't that I was asking too much, it was how I asked it that made him not want to meet my expectations.
> 
> I would ask him why he didn't clean the counter/kitty box in a totally non judgmental way and see what he says.
> 
> ...


Thank you. I agree with you.

I know at 3 am, I shouldn't have snapped at him but I was really annoyed because I find that inconsiderate. I mumbled "No" I didn't snap to be accurate. 

I told him I had to get up early over dinner and he CLEARLY wasn't listening to me. 

That's what really annoyed me. He said "I didn't know you had to be up" means "I don't listen when you talk" to me. 

I did miss him, very much. That's why I got up and hugged and kissed him.

I missed HIM, not his penis though. His penis I can wait more than ten minutes before I say hello to.

I guess it hurt my feelings a little that the first thing he wanted was sex, not so much as a "boo" first.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> Thank you. I agree with you.
> 
> I know at 3 am, I shouldn't have snapped at him but I was really annoyed because I find that inconsiderate. I mumbled "No" I didn't snap to be accurate.
> 
> ...


This is a dangerous assumption. Men don't work the way we do. I've told my husband a thousand times, "I need to hear you say positive things about me". I told him nicely, I told him harshly, I told him every way I could think of. The issue wasn't that he was listening, the issue was that he was already slightly unhappy with our relationship. He felt that I was reminding him of things he knew already, which made him feel like I didn't trust him; like I was his disciplinarian, and not his wife. 

So your fiance could be listening, there just might be other issues he hasn't been telling you about. I would ask him why, without being judgmental, he asked for sex at three in the morning.



> I did miss him, very much. That's why I got up and hugged and kissed him.
> 
> I missed HIM, not his penis though. His penis I can wait more than ten minutes before I say hello to.


But a man and his penis are one. They're the same thing. His penis is apart of him, so if you missed HIM, he thinks you probably missed his penis too. And it was probably disappointing and hurtful to him to see that you didn't miss him enough to turn off the movie. Which, honestly, I agree with him. 



> I guess it hurt my feelings a little that the first thing he wanted was sex, not so much as a "boo" first.


Have you told him this?


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## saracole (Jan 16, 2013)

You have every right to say no to him. My husband tried this once and I was livid. He wasn't considerate enough of your feelings to wake you up at 3 am. You handled it with more grace than I ever would. Think of this scenario you wanted him to do some housework do you think he would be cheery if you woke him up to change the cat litter?


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Some women like to be woken up. I do sometimes. It's fun. And man oh man, do I enjoy waking up my husband. I had a hot, spicy dream once and woke up. I was so turned on and ready to go. But hubs had to be up early, so I tried masturbating. Wasn't satisfied. I took his hand and put it down my panties. He woke up, was momentarily confused, and then was instantly on top of me.  SO much fun. 

So being woken up isn't _always_ inconsiderate.


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> Some women like to be woken up. I do sometimes. It's fun. And man oh man, do I enjoy waking up my husband. I had a hot, spicy dream once and woke up. I was so turned on and ready to go. But hubs had to be up early, so I tried masturbating. Wasn't satisfied. I took his hand and put it down my panties. He woke up, was momentarily confused, and then was instantly on top of me.  SO much fun.
> 
> So being woken up isn't _always_ inconsiderate.


I have asked him not to do it on mornings I have to get up. He agreed to this.

Never once has stopped him though.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

He treats you indifferently and then whines or guilts you into sex because it works. When it no longer works, he will quit. If I gave my dog cookies every time he soiled the carpet, the dog would quickly figure that I like his little presents on the carpet. We train others how to treat us. If you had told the guy, "I was in the mood for sex till until I got home and saw the mess you left for me to clean up. I feel disrespected and taken for granted and you're so not getting laid tonight." he'd be able to link his sorry behavior with the consequence of not getting laid. At 3:00am, he bugs you for sex, you turn him down, he persists, you get up and go to the couch without him getting any slap and tickle, he'll soon figure out that "no" means "no". The common features here are selfishness and disrespect. He's shocked that a movie is more important than you but his Xbox was more important than you all day and getting his rocks off was more important than your needs at 3:00am. See a pattern? If he expects to be valued, he needs to value you.


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> This is a dangerous assumption. Men don't work the way we do. I've told my husband a thousand times, "I need to hear you say positive things about me". I told him nicely, I told him harshly, I told him every way I could think of. The issue wasn't that he was listening, the issue was that he was already slightly unhappy with our relationship. He felt that I was reminding him of things he knew already, which made him feel like I didn't trust him; like I was his disciplinarian, and not his wife.
> 
> So your fiance could be listening, there just might be other issues he hasn't been telling you about. I would ask him why, without being judgmental, he asked for sex at three in the morning.
> 
> ...


I cannot explain why I feel this way but...I find it depressing that the first thing he wants when he walks in the door is my hand on his penis. 

THAT's what you missed me for? Gee, thank you. 

Now of course we had sex (three times) that night but I basically had to go all out to seduce him out of his funk.
:scratchhead:
Me is confused as to why that couldn't wait ten minutes.

Things I want can wait weeks, maybe even months unless I yell and I hate yelling.


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## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Never once has stopped him though.


What do you expect? He's 19 and sleeping with a supermodel!


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

T&T said:


> What do you expect? He's 19 and sleeping with a supermodel!


LMFAO, he's 20 and I'm NOT a super model. I just do it to pay my own bills and not have to ask mommy and daddy for rent money.

You can find me in a few catalogs though


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## Cre8ify (Feb 1, 2012)

The first scenario with the messy kitchen and playing games would pi** me off and I'm a guy. On the other hand, you spent your evening talking, bonding, sharing experiences, perhaps holding hands, trying each others dishes and perhaps priming the pump with a glass of wine or two. To him, sex is a natural extension and culmination of the closeness that was progressing through the evening. When the stage is set, we hate to miss because those settings don't come around all the time.

Scenario 2 at 3 a.m is no man's land for me. I have had my head handed to me on Valentine's Day morning in spite of flickering candles, roses, massage oil and soft music. All because I had an early flight to catch...too early I guess. I don't get this one because you can sleep anytime but you can only live now.

Scenario 3 he was selfish if you were into a movie. Good move to snuggle with you and watch the end of it, even if it was a chick flick. Bad form to grope you.

Men go from 0-60 in nothing flat. The fact that he is instantly aroused when he walks in the door...means he has missed you...and you are hot.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Do you ever initiate?


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> Do you ever initiate?


When would I ever have the chance?


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> I have asked him not to do it on mornings I have to get up. He agreed to this.
> 
> Never once has stopped him though.


You really need to start reinforcing your boundaries. If he agreed not to wake you up in the early mornings, than don't have sex in the early mornings. You are conditioning him to disregard what you say because even you don't keep to your boundaries.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

How often do you have sex?

It sounds to me like his drive is just higher than yours.

I assume you're looking for ways to tell him no?


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Cre8ify said:


> The first scenario with the messy kitchen and playing games would pi** me off and I'm a guy. On the other hand, you spent your evening talking, bonding, sharing experiences, perhaps holding hands, trying each others dishes and perhaps priming the pump with a glass of wine or two. To him, sex is a natural extension and culmination of the closeness that was progressing through the evening. When the stage is set, we hate to miss because those settings don't come around all the time.
> 
> Scenario 2 at 3 a.m is no man's land for me. I have had my head handed to me on Valentine's Day morning in spite of flickering candles, roses, massage oil and soft music. All because I had an early flight to catch...too early I guess. I don't get this one because you can sleep anytime but you can only live now.
> 
> ...


Thanks for responding. I look at it like this:

He's rich. Like, stupid, stupid rich thanks to grandaddy. He doesn't work and he doesn't pay bills because we hide this relationship from his parents, he uses his "allowance" to buy me things (cash only). 

So it takes little effort for him to buy me a fancy meal.

Getting off his ass and doing what I asked him to do to me, shows a lot more effort on his part.

But I did feel bad rejecting him after a date night, it seems to me that is bad form. 

And that last part was funny. :rofl:


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> I cannot explain why I feel this way but...I find it depressing that the first thing he wants when he walks in the door is my hand on his penis.
> 
> THAT's what you missed me for? Gee, thank you.


This is why it's important to be sexually compatible with your partner. You're probably never going to understand his desire, and he won't understand your lack of desire.



> Now of course we had sex (three times) that night but I basically had to go all out to seduce him out of his funk.
> :scratchhead:
> Me is confused as to why that couldn't wait ten minutes.


Three times? Holy crap. I think you need to start reinforcing your boundaries, girl.



> Things I want can wait weeks, maybe even months unless I yell and I hate yelling.


So, enforce boundaries. By giving into him every time he wants sex, you're teaching him that your wants don't matter. 

You two need counseling, imo. This is not good behavior going into marriage.


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> How often do you have sex?
> 
> It sounds to me like his drive is just higher than yours.
> 
> I assume you're looking for ways to tell him no?


Every single day. 

Sometimes more if I'm not too sore. 

We go to the same law school but I work two jobs (I model and I also intern at a law firm) and he travels a lot for family related stuff. 

So sometimes he's gone for a few days but other than that, every day.


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> This is why it's important to be sexually compatible with your partner. You're probably never going to understand his desire, and he won't understand your lack of desire.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He really is sweet beyond measure.

He's just SPOILED.

Dear God, his parents have been wiping his ass with golden toilet paper since he was a newborn. 

But I recognize I have issues too, so sometimes I like to know whose issue it is.


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

saracole said:


> You have every right to say no to him. My husband tried this once and I was livid. He wasn't considerate enough of your feelings to wake you up at 3 am. You handled it with more grace than I ever would. Think of this scenario you wanted him to do some housework do you think he would be cheery if you woke him up to change the cat litter?


:rofl:

Oh you are too funny.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

Being told NO isn't the problem for men. It is all about how she says NO and what happens after she says NO. 

I have no problem with you saying NO in each of your examples. But explain why you said NO. Make sure he knows that even though you said NO, you will be making an effort in the next day or two.


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

SadSamIAm said:


> Being told NO isn't the problem for men. It is all about how she says NO and what happens after she says NO.
> 
> I have no problem with you saying NO in each of your examples. But explain why you said NO. Make sure he knows that even though you said NO, you will be making an effort in the next day or two.


The thing is...I wouldn't make an effort in the next day or two. Or three. 

That's why I just let him, I want him to get "enough" to be satisfied. If I leave it up to just what I want, I'd be called selfish.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> The thing is...I wouldn't make an effort in the next day or two. Or three.
> 
> That's why I just let him, I want him to get "enough" to be satisfied. If I leave it up to just what I want, I'd be called selfish.


But that makes for a very unhealthy relationship. 

You need to learn to keep to your boundaries. If getting woken up in the morning for sex bothers you, tell him. And then the next time it happens, say no and keep it no. Tell him you'll have sex with him after school or whatever. Then, have sex with him after school. Just because you don't want to do it doesn't mean you're right for not wanting to do it.

It's like him with the cat box and cleaning. Just because he doesn't want to do it doesn't mean he should sit on his butt all day. He should do what he said he would do, and clean. You really need to learn this, otherwise your marriage is in for a lot of issues, imo.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

K well in that case, you and he need to have a bit of a chat.

If he isn't willing to see things from your perspective here, things are just going to get worse.


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> But that makes for a very unhealthy relationship.
> 
> You need to learn to keep to your boundaries. If getting woken up in the morning for sex bothers you, tell him. And then the next time it happens, say no and keep it no. Tell him you'll have sex with him after school or whatever. Then, have sex with him after school. Just because you don't want to do it doesn't mean you're right for not wanting to do it.
> 
> It's like him with the cat box and cleaning. Just because he doesn't want to do it doesn't mean he should sit on his butt all day. He should do what he said he would do, and clean. You really need to learn this, otherwise your marriage is in for a lot of issues, imo.


:iagree::iagree:

I have a lot of issues with the word "no" and I'm probably the least assertive person ever.

I associate "No" with bad things happening.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

Senario 1: No after a $200 dinner....Over cat litter!!!! And yet women say they crave romantic evenings !!!!

The dog neeeded walking, the rest could have waited. Bad call on your part.......

Senario 2: Waking someone up at 3:00 AM is just RUDE........He was dead wrong....Do the same to him sometime....Wake him up EARLY when he needs his sleep and say "Honey I just have to sit on your face RIGHT NOW!!!! If he complies he may be a keeper....

Senario 3: At 20, if I had been gone 3 days you would have finished watching your movie over my shoulder just inside the door......We would never had made it to the sofa....Three days DAMN!!!!!

I cannot remember ever being told NO for the first 15 years, but I always made sure to ask at mutually convenient times..

When my wife was pi$$ed she would vac the bedroom carpet after I went to bed....But say NO....Never......

Sex is too important to waste...:smthumbup:


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> Some women like to be woken up. I do sometimes. It's fun. And man oh man, do I enjoy waking up my husband. I had a hot, spicy dream once and woke up. I was so turned on and ready to go. But hubs had to be up early, so I tried masturbating. Wasn't satisfied. I took his hand and put it down my panties. He woke up, was momentarily confused, and then was instantly on top of me.  SO much fun.
> 
> So being woken up isn't _always_ inconsiderate.


BRAVO!!!!!!!!:smthumbup:


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

I think you need to have a serious talk to him or resentment will spill over.

It's hard to find someone attractive if they are irresponsible and uncaring about your needs. He needs to understand that to find him attractive he has to behave like a responsible adult and not clean up because you want him to or because it might get him sex but because adults take care of themselves and others and a responsible man who does what needs to be done is attractive. 

Also the way he asks for sex would irritate me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Woodchuck said:


> Senario 1: No after a $200 dinner....Over cat litter!!!! And yet women say they crave romantic evenings !!!!
> 
> The dog neeeded walking, the rest could have waited. Bad call on your part.......
> 
> ...


There seems to be a theme that if a man does something nice for a woman, it earns him sex.

The age old theme is expensive dinner = sex.

I think he knows this because every time he takes me ANYWHERE he gets that look in his eye.


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## Tony55 (Jun 8, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> He's just SPOILED.


His family spoiled him with too much money and he's spoiling you with too much attention; neither of you know what you have... but you will.. someday, when you don't have it anymore.

T


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Tony55 said:


> His family spoiled him with too much money and he's spoiling you with too much attention; neither of you know what you have... but you will.. someday, when you don't have it anymore.
> 
> T


....he is spoiling ME?

:scratchhead:

I do all the work...so explain that one to me.


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

*LittleDeer* said:


> I think you need to have a serious talk to him or resentment will spill over.
> 
> It's hard to find someone attractive if they are irresponsible and uncaring about your needs. He needs to understand that to find him attractive he has to behave like a responsible adult and not clean up because you want him to or because it might get him sex but because adults take care of themselves and others and a responsible man who does what needs to be done is attractive.
> 
> ...


The thing is, I've known him since we were just kids so no matter what he does, I end up melting to one of his little quirky quirks. And did I mention he's super hot...*drool*...wait, what was I saying?

But you're totally right. 

I can't keep babying him.


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## Thunder7 (Jan 2, 2013)

Little Bird, you said he's just spoiled. Correct. He is also extremely immature. You appear to be 20 going on 30, while it sounds like he is 20 going on 12. He wants sex like a child wants a cookie. And if he's told he can't have it he pouts and stomps until he gets his way, which you say you give him eventually anyway. Mature relationships are a two way street and if one person is dominating the relationship with inconsiderate behavior it is doomed to fail. I certainly don't know the answers to make your relationship work long term. But, if you do not establish some type of boundaries he will continue to walk all over you to get his way. And it won't get better. It will only get worse.


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Thunder7 said:


> Little Bird, you said he's just spoiled. Correct. He is also extremely immature. You appear to be 20 going on 30, while it sounds like he is 20 going on 12. He wants sex like a child wants a cookie. And if he's told he can't have it he pouts and stomps until he gets his way, which you say you give him eventually anyway. Mature relationships are a two way street and if one person is dominating the relationship with inconsiderate behavior it is doomed to fail. I certainly don't know the answers to make your relationship work long term. But, if you do not establish some type of boundaries he will continue to walk all over you to get his way. And it won't get better. It will only get worse.


It is a difficult situation.

I'm naturally inclined to avoid sex if left purely up to my own devices and because I know that, I have trained myself not to say no, in an effort not to be selfish.

But in turn, I've allowed HIM to become selfish.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

If a $200 dinner equals sex, why not skip the dinner, give her the $200, and save the gas money, parking fees, and tip? I'm a guy and I can't wrap my Neanderthal head around the notion that there is a dining dollar figure that automatically trips a booty obligation. Does that mean paying a $1600 mortgage note entitles me to eight booty calls? Can't imagine a model eating $200 worth of food, anyway.


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> If a $200 dinner equals sex, why not skip the dinner, give her the $200, and save the gas money, parking fees, and tip? I'm a guy and I can't wrap my Neanderthal head around the notion that there is a dining dollar figure that automatically trips a booty obligation. Does that mean paying a $1600 mortgage note entitles me to eight booty calls? Can't imagine a model eating $200 worth of food, anyway.


I don't know where this ideal comes from anyway.But it's always been around. Like men give us nice things and we give them sex.

Round about prostitution, as I call it. 

And oh, I eat PLENTY. God just blessed me with a metabolism. Besides, the type of modeling I do allows me to have a little more cushion.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> I don't know where this ideal comes from anyway.But it's always been around. Like men give us nice things and we give them sex.
> 
> Round about prostitution, as I call it.
> 
> And oh, I eat PLENTY. God just blessed me with a metabolism. Besides, the type of modeling I do allows me to have a little more cushion.


I agree. It's pretty common for a guy to take a woman out for dinner, or whatever, and then think she owes him sex. I've even had a guy or two actually tell me. They were disappointed. It was the last time I went out with them.


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## Tony55 (Jun 8, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> ....he is spoiling ME?
> 
> I do all the work...so explain that one to me.


He's given you so much sexual attention that you now take it for granted, if he were to reverse course (which he won't because he's a young, virile male) and not pay any attention to you (sexually) you'd be on this forum asking why he doesn't want you anymore. Of course, this won't happen, he'll continue to paw at you, and you'll slowly become repulsed by him, and if you're lucky, this will come to a head BEFORE you two are married.

You won't respect him until he gets a job, which won't happen because, _"He's rich. Like, stupid, stupid rich thanks to grandaddy"._ He won't take care of the house because,_ "He's rich. Like, stupid, stupid rich thanks to grandaddy"_. And he has more important things to do, whine and play video games.

Oh, and one more thing, you said, "_Our sex life is great for him_", of course it is, it doesn't take much to excite a 20 year old male, any sex is a great 'sex life' to him, that's no achievement.

If sex is an aggravation now, imagine how great it will be 5 years from now, after the 'till death do you part' thing.

T


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Tony55 said:


> He's given you so much sexual attention that you now take it for granted, if he were to reverse course (which he won't because he's a young, virile male) and not pay any attention to you (sexually) you'd be on this forum asking why he doesn't want you anymore. Of course, this won't happen, he'll continue to paw at you, and you'll slowly become repulsed by him, and if you're lucky, this will come to a head BEFORE you two are married.
> 
> You won't respect him until he gets a job, which won't happen because, _"He's rich. Like, stupid, stupid rich thanks to grandaddy"._ He won't take care of the house because,_ "He's rich. Like, stupid, stupid rich thanks to grandaddy"_. And he has more important things to do, whine and play video games.
> 
> ...


So I should appreciate his sexual advances at 3 am in the morning before I dry up and he loses interest?

Thanks...:scratchhead:


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

You dont owe him sex regardless of what he may or may not do. He owes you nothing either. I think you two should possibly split and find yourselves someone more compatible. You need to work on setting and sticking to your boundaries. Why are you with this guy? He is lazy, self centered, immature, an 8learly feels entitled to everything...... According to your posts that is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Gaia said:


> You dont owe him sex regardless of what he may or may not do. He owes you nothing either. I think you two should possibly split and find yourselves someone more compatible. You need to work on setting and sticking to your boundaries. Why are you with this guy? He is lazy, self centered, immature, an 8learly feels entitled to everything...... According to your posts that is.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Why am I with him?

He writes me poetry...he's...tender with me. Can't say I've ever experienced that before.

No one has ever treated me like him. 

He's not perfect and to be honest, it's my fault.

I wanted to wait till marriage and I caved, I guess I opened a Pandora's Box that I simply cannot close now.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

No.. You can still enforce and stick to your boundaries. If you think you can make it... You two will learn and grow over time. No relationship is easy. Just keep this in mind. Give the his needs/her needs a try. I have had three kids and a hell of a rough time with the man I lost my virginity too. We are still learning and growing as a couple.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

The important thing regardless of all these "what if" stories is to focus on the pride and respect you are being shown in concealing your relationship from others. Good to know that your man has his priorities straight with mommy and daddy/grandpa's money ahead of an ostensible lifelong mate.

Looks like both of you are on the same page with living a lie too, which is always good. That shared trait, with him concealing you from family and whomever else and you concealing from him who you really are. There is a kind of elegant symmetry there. Because it's true in a way what he tells the family - that he isn't living with or engaged to you, because you are actually a different person than what you show to him. 

The great thing about a life like this is having to guess what a simple word like "no" means. Because once we decide to put the mask on and play all these games with words and actions not meaning what they appear to mean on the surface, then it is nearly as exciting as using words and actions entirely at random. 

You don't even have these kinds of questions when people are straightforward and above board with communication in their relationships. The moment you abandon that as bedrock then the ancient maxim applies: "Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive". 

Life is so much simpler when you just say exactly what is on your mind. Because there is only one answer. But there are an infinity of potential lies. You say "no" when you mean no, and you give the reason. Someone so accustomed to putting on an act and using words to manipulate rather than representing what we think or feel - well sure, it is a lot less clear what to say or do.


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Wiserforit said:


> The important thing regardless of all these "what if" stories is to focus on the pride and respect you are being shown in concealing your relationship from others. Good to know that your man has his priorities straight with mommy and daddy/grandpa's money ahead of an ostensible lifelong mate.
> 
> Looks like both of you are on the same page with living a lie too, which is always good. That shared trait, with him concealing you from family and whomever else and you concealing from him who you really are. There is a kind of elegant symmetry there. Because it's true in a way what he tells the family - that he isn't living with or engaged to you, because you are actually a different person than what you show to him.
> 
> ...


You watch too much CSI.

He knows about the abuse...he knows. And he still loves me, what a MIRACLE.

You seem to think one can just spring up from years of abuse and be totally dandy. I do my best and I do my best to give him what he asks of me.

If that's not enough for YOU, then that's not really relevant.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

I think that you are fine enforcing your boundaries in any of those situations if it wasn't right for you. Really doesn't matter what the rest of us think.

My only advice would be use "No" to help define what is "Yes" in your relationship. Too much "No" is a bad thing.


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Acorn said:


> I think that you are fine enforcing your boundaries in any of those situations if it wasn't right for you. Really doesn't matter what the rest of us think.
> 
> My only advice would be use "No" to help define what is "Yes" in your relationship. Too much "No" is a bad thing.


He has never heard the word "no" in his entire life which is why I'm rather reluctant to introduce it.


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## Thunder7 (Jan 2, 2013)

LittleBird said:


> He has never heard the word "no" in his entire life which is why I'm rather reluctant to introduce it.


It's all part of growing up. Sometimes we just don't get what we want. He needs to learn to deal with it and move on.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

LittleBird said:


> He has never heard the word "no" in his entire life which is why I'm rather reluctant to introduce it.


The best relationships are those that help people grow. No better way to help him grow than to start saying "No" when it is right to do so.


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## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

I'm sorry, but the OP and her fiance sound like a couple of junior high school students, a decade or more from being ready for marriage or any real relationship.


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

jaharthur said:


> I'm sorry, but the OP and her fiance sound like a couple of junior high school students, a decade or more from being ready for marriage or any real relationship.


I was only in Jr High for like a year....but you're probably right 

I know I'm not ready yet but I go to school, work two jobs, bought my own place, pay my own bills, cook, clean, knit, take care of my pets and my baby brother (not finically but my parents should never be left alone with a child, I shudder at the thought). 

So maybe I'm not ready for marriage but I think I'm growing up alright.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

jaharthur said:


> I'm sorry, but the OP and her fiance sound like a couple of junior high school students, a decade or more from being ready for marriage or any real relationship.


I agree. 

I was twenty when I married and thought I was ready. Boy was I wrong.


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## Tony55 (Jun 8, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> So I should appreciate his sexual advances at 3 am in the morning before I dry up and he loses interest?


If you believe that that's the extent of your problems, then yes.

T


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> I agree.
> 
> I was twenty when I married and thought I was ready. Boy was I wrong.


We will wait. :iagree:


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

If your sex life is tolerable, get him to give you an oral orgasm everytime before he gets sex. Then your sex like will be much better. It's give and take, 50/50.

Scenario 01: Myself, Whether it's after work for me or on my days off work, I always do some chores so they never pile up and our place is quite clean overall, with nothing major to do. I still don't get sex, even though she is very happy that a lot is done.

Scenario 02: I have never woken my wife up at 3am for sex, let alone anything. She works a full time job just like me and we need our sleep. Now if its 11pm, different story. I still usually don't get sex, it's bedtime for her, too late.

Scenario 03: I have never put my hands down my wife's panties or just grab her boob. She would get annoyed and push my hands away. When we watch a movie, we cuddle on the couch and watch the movie, fall asleep and maybe if I'm lucky get sex.


I got married when I was 25 and my wife was 20. Age wasn't the issue, it was her low sex drive and esteem she is not willing to do anything about.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

LittleBird said:


> I did miss him, very much. That's why I got up and hugged and kissed him.
> 
> I missed HIM, not his penis though. His penis I can wait more than ten minutes before I say hello to.


So, what if your fiancee say "honey I love you but I don't love your tongue. So stop speaking to me until I am in the mood of hearing you ten minutes from now..."

*facepalm*

the penis is attached to the man.. they are one package. You cannot love the man and not love his penis. 

I hope you are not secretly hoping that one day he will be detached from his penis.. :scratchhead:

Some people from this forum has given you good advice. 

Especially the ones which telling you that you're not ready to marry your fiancee until you sort out your own problems..until you are able to be enjoying sex with him for yourself, for your own physical and psychological enjoyment (not just "to make him happy"). 

If you are not enjoying sex, but you do not tell him that and do not letting him making an effort to make you enjoying sex with him, you're only making the problem worse with your dishonesty.

Every relationship, yea EVEN business relationships, requires partners to be very honest.

If my superior suddenly said: "Hey John, I actually hate your drafts. None of them are good to my taste. I didn't tell you that your drafts are bad, and I didn't fire you all this time because I want you to feel guilty for making bad drafts all these years.." 

Then I would certainly say "By the Beard of Benjamin, why didn't you SAID SO the first time I made a bad draft!?! I could've LEARNED to make better drafts! And now YOU expect me to feel guilty about it? That's it, I quit! I'd rather be a tentmaker than working for a dishonest superior like you!"


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

john_lord_b3 said:


> So, what if your fiancee say "honey I love you but I don't love your tongue. So stop speaking to me until I am in the mood of hearing you ten minutes from now..."
> 
> *facepalm*
> 
> ...


Of course no one is expecting his penis to fall off

But it is so not unreasonable of me to want 10 minutes of non sexual ANYTHING from him before jumping straight into bed. 

"Hello"

"Don't talk *****, get to the ****'

*face palm*


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

LittleBird said:


> Of course no one is expecting his penis to fall off


Amein!



> But it is so not unreasonable of me to want 10 minutes of non sexual ANYTHING from him before jumping straight into bed.
> 
> "Hello"
> 
> ...


Yea, certainly not unreasonable at all.... so go tell him about it.. "..honey, at this moment, could we please..just cuddling up a little? Maybe for 10 minutes, 15 minutes, 30 minutes tops.. I love cuddling up.. it will get me more prepared before we are going bonking...Just like motorcycles needs to be heated up before a race, my ladyparts will be more receptive after being given tender love.. And while we're at it, please read me your love poetry I sooo enjoy hearing them.."

you happy, him happy, and TAM forum will be happy to hear that you're enjoying yourselves


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Unfortunately LittleBird judging by how your fiance pretty much doesn't take your boundaries seriously -> you have to put the foot down.

He has to learn to keep his word and respect your boundaries, as well as learning the fact that sh-t lying around everywhere saps the mood as well as learning that women need sleep too! 

Only way he will learn is if you stop enabling him. And yes I tend to be very p-ssed as well when I come home and the place is a mess. Not to mention if there's spoiled food everywhere and she's there playing video games. No thanks, I have my responsibility, she has hers.


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## Vanguard (Jul 27, 2011)

I wonder what you're going to do when he meets someone who likes sex as much as him? 

Because I know what he's going to do.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

You need to set your boundaries, and you need to make it VERY clear to him what will happen if he pushes those boundaries, and THEN you need to follow through. You can SAY no all you want, but if you give in every time, the words mean nothing.

All three things MUST happen - set boundaries, state consequences, follow through. That is the ONLY way he will ever learn that you mean business.

And if he turns into a petulant child, have a consequence for that too.

If this drives him away or to someone else for sex, then you know that he isn't your life partner.


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

WhiteMousse said:


> I wonder what you're going to do when he meets someone who likes sex as much as him?
> 
> Because I know what he's going to do.


Let me guess. Your wife cut you off and now you're bitter at every woman who doesn't snap her legs open like a revolving door.


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> You need to set your boundaries, and you need to make it VERY clear to him what will happen if he pushes those boundaries, and THEN you need to follow through. You can SAY no all you want, but if you give in every time, the words mean nothing.
> 
> All three things MUST happen - set boundaries, state consequences, follow through. That is the ONLY way he will ever learn that you mean business.
> 
> ...


He stayed with me for a long time without ANY sex, so hopefully a talk will set him straight.


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## Thoreau (Nov 12, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Let me guess. Your wife cut you off and now you're bitter at every woman who doesn't snap her legs open like a revolving door.


Actually, he's a Pastor of a Church, a pillar of his community whose wife drained the bank account and left the state while he was preaching a Sunday sermon and tending his flock.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> Let me guess. Your wife cut you off and now you're bitter at every woman who doesn't snap her legs open like a revolving door.


This is uncalled for, LB. Very uncalled for, and highly immature. There are a lot of men and women who are married to spouses who don't care about the sexual aspect of the relationship at all. The husbands and wives try everything they can think of to help improve the atmosphere of the relationship so that sex is safe and relaxing for their spouse, and that person _still_ just doesn't understand. So many men here are hurting in their marriages because their wives refuse to change. 

This response concerns me, because it seems like even though you say that you understand the importance of sex in marriage, it makes me wonder if you really do. Saying, "I believe that sex is important in the relationship" doesn't mean you really do understand.


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> This is uncalled for, LB. Very uncalled for, and highly immature. There are a lot of men and women who are married to spouses who don't care about the sexual aspect of the relationship at all. The husbands and wives try everything they can think of to help improve the atmosphere of the relationship so that sex is safe and relaxing for their spouse, and that person _still_ just doesn't understand. So many men here are hurting in their marriages because their wives refuse to change.
> 
> This response concerns me, because it seems like even though you say that you understand the importance of sex in marriage, it makes me wonder if you really do. Saying, "I believe that sex is important in the relationship" doesn't mean you really do understand.


I understand it.

I just don't appreciate the notion of "When he finds someone who likes getting laid better, he'll be out the door."

That, to me is rude.

Perhaps I shouldn't have been rude back but I seem to be getting a lot of petulant responses that are unmerited. I've gotten a lot of responses treating me like some *****y prude and on THIS post in particular, I feel I did nothing to deserve that.

I lost my patience.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> Of course no one is expecting his penis to fall off
> 
> But it is so not unreasonable of me to want 10 minutes of non sexual ANYTHING from him before jumping straight into bed.
> 
> ...


1. You haven't said no to him before in this relationship, and when you have, you've given in to him anyway. _You_ have taught him that he will get whatever he wants because you don't stand up for yourself. And it is very obvious that you are resentful, so much so that you keep lashing out to people here on this forum. Specifically men. 

2. It's clear that you do not communicate your needs to him. Or, if you do, you don't enforce boundaries to keep him accountable. How is he supposed to value what you say if even YOU don't value what you say? The BOTH of you need counseling, LB. This relationship is toxic for the both of you.


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## mahike (Aug 16, 2011)

How men and women respond to sex and feel about sex are on oppisite poles. Yes you should be able to say no but do not make this about what he does or does not do around the house. Do not make sex a bargining point in your marriage.

Sex should be somthing that you both want to express the way you feel about each other and your love for each other. But when you say I need you to do this for me it sets up trading sex for things or duties.


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> 1. You haven't said no to him before in this relationship, and when you have, you've given in to him anyway. _You_ have taught him that he will get whatever he wants because you don't stand up for yourself. And it is very obvious that you are resentful, so much so that you keep lashing out to people here on this forum. Specifically men.
> 
> 2. It's clear that you do not communicate your needs to him. Or, if you do, you don't enforce boundaries to keep him accountable. How is he supposed to value what you say if even YOU don't value what you say? The BOTH of you need counseling, LB. This relationship is toxic for the both of you.


I am actually not resentful of him (maybe initially but I can't stay mad at him), I resentful of being treated like stupid child SIMPLY because I may differ in opinion.

It is fine to disagree with me but I don't appreciate the patronizing- there is a difference between educating and going "you're just a prude who doesn't understand anything" in so many words. 

Education I actually appreciate, like you have given me. You say things in ways that I can understand and that don't make me feel like an inherently bad person.


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

mahike said:


> How men and women respond to sex and feel about sex are on oppisite poles. Yes you should be able to say no but do not make this about what he does or does not do around the house. Do not make sex a bargining point in your marriage.
> 
> Sex should be somthing that you both want to express the way you feel about each other and your love for each other. But when you say I need you to do this for me it sets up trading sex for things or duties.


That is why I ended up saying yes, I don't want to get into the habit of denying him over housework. Its seems quite petty.

But it isn't the housework. It's that he can ignore everything that comes out of my mouth and then decide to pay attention to me when it comes to my vagina.

I try not to yell at him....my mother's advice was "stay pretty, keep putting out, keep the house clean, feed him and don't nag unless you want to die alone" 

Ah, mother dearest. But she kind of has a point. How many men on TAM complain about those very things? I'm trying not to become like that but he's walking all over me.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> I understand it.
> 
> I just don't appreciate the notion of "When he finds someone who likes getting laid better, he'll be out the door."
> 
> That, to me is rude.


But it's _true_. This is why sexual compatibility is vitally important. It's not just because the man wants sex as much as he can get it. When the woman doesn't understand how important sex is, or when she does but she just doesn't enjoy it, the man will eventually see through the facade. His entire relationship with her will become disillusioned and he will realize that she never enjoyed it like she said she did, or pretended to. 

Much of the time the women in those scenarios have so much resentment built up over time, that when the man finally realizes his sexual relationship with his wife has been a farse and he tries to discuss it with her, she is incapable and unwilling to change or try to enjoy it. She despises him, when it wasn't his fault. It happens quite often, as many threads here say. It happens with women, too, where they realize their husbands don't enjoy sex. 

In my marriage, if my husband suddenly told me he didn't enjoy sex and that he wasn't going to go to counseling(or he did but nothing changed), I would leave him. I need a mutually satisfying sex life more than I need cuddling or flowers or conversation. And my husband would do the same to me. Sex is a physical and emotional need in marriage, and when it isn't satisfying to both parties, issues abound. 



> Perhaps I shouldn't have been rude back but I seem to be getting a lot of petulant responses that are unmerited. I've gotten a lot of responses treating me like some *****y prude and on THIS post in particular, I feel I did nothing to deserve that.


He was being honest, LB. Harsh and blunt, but honest. Your fiance will only be able to take fake enjoyment for so long, and you will only be able to fake that enjoyment for so long. Once the truth is realized, it has the potential to ruin the relationship. I feel like you don't really understand how likely this is to happen. And I get that. At twenty years old I didn't think I would be facing divorce three years down the road, either. But that's why it is SO important to understand what our spouses need from us and why. 

My husband's primary emotional need is Recreational Companionship(_His Needs, Her Needs_...I recommend that book. It's great.). When I heard that I thought, "Oh, he likes spending time together. Great." So we would watch movies together and talk together, eat dinner together. I thought I was doing a great job, only to find out that he didn't feel fulfilled at all. He felt that I hadn't changed a thing, and I was like, "But we do so much together!" That's when I realized that what _I_ see as Recreational Companionship is _not_ what he sees as Recreational Companionship. What you think is enough sexually is not necessarily going to fulfill him. 

At twenty-one, my husband was content with the sex we had. We had sex usually everyday and it would be rough and sexual and awesome. Now, at nearly twenty-five, there are things he needs during sex; my participation, for one. My enthusiasm(and not faked enthusiasm but real, unadulterated enthusiasm), and my _enjoyment_. So much of his sexual satisfaction comes from _me_ being satisfied. At twenty we didn't focus on oral sex so much. I just wanted to be pounded. But now, at our mid-twenties, things are different. 

While you may think that he's satisfied, he may not be.


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## mahike (Aug 16, 2011)

I think you need boundries and you need to work out the issues about house work. If you are both working it should be a 50 50 proposition.

Try talking about the cleaning and responsability issues seperate from the boundries issues with sex. 

Marriage is hard for both but you need to know that you bond with him in different ways they way he bonds with you is tied to sex. Fix these issues now if not they willl carry out through the marriage


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> I am actually not resentful of him (maybe initially but I can't stay mad at him), I resentful of being treated like stupid child SIMPLY because I may differ in opinion.
> 
> It is fine to disagree with me but I don't appreciate the patronizing- there is a difference between educating and going "you're just a prude who doesn't understand anything" in so many words.
> 
> Education I actually appreciate, like you have given me. You say things in ways that I can understand and that don't make me feel like an inherently bad person.


I know how it feels to be made out to be something I'm not, which is why I'm trying to be honest with you, while not patronizing you. However, many of the people on this forum are coming from a place of pain because their wives have been a lot like you are. They see the similarities and it...well, it triggers something in them. Reminds them of their pain. 

You aren't a horrible person in any way. You obviously care very deeply for your fiance, and you have been quite receptive to what's been said here. That's awesome. It really is.  But, a lot of things can change in the course of even a few years. I look at who I am now at twenty-four, and who I was at twenty when I married, and I can see so many things that are different.

I understand you lost patience. I have a very short patience fuse, myself. But, next time, instead of responding in sarcasm and insult, try ignoring what was said.  It works wonders to keeping your sanity when you're talking with people on the internet.


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> But it's _true_. This is why sexual compatibility is vitally important. It's not just because the man wants sex as much as he can get it. When the woman doesn't understand how important sex is, or when she does but she just doesn't enjoy it, the man will eventually see through the facade. His entire relationship with her will become disillusioned and he will realize that she never enjoyed it like she said she did, or pretended to.
> 
> Much of the time the women in those scenarios have so much resentment built up over time, that when the man finally realizes his sexual relationship with his wife has been a farse and he tries to discuss it with her, she is incapable and unwilling to change or try to enjoy it. She despises him, when it wasn't his fault. It happens quite often, as many threads here say. It happens with women, too, where they realize their husbands don't enjoy sex.
> 
> ...


I think it is incredibly shallow to leave someone because they don't get as much physical enjoyment out of penetration as the other person does. It's borderline ridiculous actually because a lot of women don't get much from PIV. 

If they genuinely ENJOY the sex and are enthusiastic about it, what do their reasons for enjoying it really matter? 

I am working on enjoying it from a physical standpoint but if it is really the intimacy that is so important, I don't understand why I have to be writhing in ecstasy for it to "count." 

I asked my fiancé if he enjoyed our sex and his response was to knock me off the sofa and do it yet again.

Actually, I kind of liked it. More than usual, anyway. 

I understand nobody wants a dead lay but saying *you have to enjoy it in every way, just as much as I do or I'm gone* is highly, highly intimidating.


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## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> But it's _true_. This is why sexual compatibility is vitally important. It's not just because the man wants sex as much as he can get it. When the woman doesn't understand how important sex is, or when she does but she just doesn't enjoy it, the man will eventually see through the facade. His entire relationship with her will become disillusioned and he will realize that she never enjoyed it like she said she did, or pretended to.
> 
> Much of the time the women in those scenarios have so much resentment built up over time, that when the man finally realizes his sexual relationship with his wife has been a farse and he tries to discuss it with her, she is incapable and unwilling to change or try to enjoy it. She despises him, when it wasn't his fault. It happens quite often, as many threads here say. It happens with women, too, where they realize their husbands don't enjoy sex.
> 
> ...


Obviously Created2Write is a fake ID created by some horny guy whose wife wouldn't respond to a 3:00 am booty call.

Just kidding, of course. Wise words, also coming from a young twenty-something; one with wisdom beyond her years.

But is that wisdom being heard?


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> That is why I ended up saying yes, I don't want to get into the habit of denying him over housework. Its seems quite petty.
> 
> But it isn't the housework. It's that he can ignore everything that comes out of my mouth and then decide to pay attention to me when it comes to my vagina.
> 
> ...


Your mother's advice is...well, confusing. In and of itself, what she said works. But the issue is that your fiance isn't a responsible adult. He's a spoiled brat. So, in that way, you definitely need to ignore your mothers advice. Don't nag, but set boundaries and enforce them. Stop letting him walk all over you. When you say, "No", don't go back on it. No should mean just that. 

He'll either figure it out and start manning up, or he won't.


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

jaharthur said:


> Obviously Created2Write is a fake ID created by some horny guy whose wife wouldn't respond to a 3:00 am booty call.
> 
> Just kidding, of course. Wise words, also coming from a young twenty-something; one with wisdom beyond her years.
> 
> But is that wisdom being heard?


Actually, yes it is.

I very much like her and respect her opinion.

I'm not dense. She questions my understanding, not my intelligence. 

That I can deal with quite well.


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## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

This is all sounding/reading like your original thread ( I think it was deleted ) 

Most of the advice on here has indicated that you need to set boundaries. That was the advice on the other thread too. 

From what I gather your fiance does not take those boundaries seriously, as in he hears you but there is no follow through. Much like his commitment to do chores around the house and then did not follow through. I think that his follow through was what had you upset the most. He made a commitment and then did not do it. Very disappointing as I'm sure this points to his integrity as a man. 

You said he's the only one who has ever cared about you. As in he's the only one you've really ever had an ongoing relationship with so I'm not surprised. Who else has had the chance to show you that they care about you as a partner? The way he shows you that he cares is not congruent with what he needs to show you. Poems, love notes etc as men we can all do that. Follow through, really listening and the like he is a let down.

Again you have pointed to being called a LD prude when no one has called you that. Perhaps what you are reading between the lines is not there at all. It's what you choose to see. We see the world for who we are not as the world is. 

Again I will recommend that you reaffirm your boundaries with him and stick to it. Set him up for it. eg: Honey I need to get up early tomorrow so please do not wake me for sex. If he does he is lacking respect for you and your needs. It's really that simple. 

One last point. 

If your relationship has to be a secret you should not be in it. What are you going to do spring the wedding on his parents ?


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

CanadianGuy said:


> This is all sounding/reading like your original thread ( I think it was deleted )
> 
> Most of the advice on here has indicated that you need to set boundaries. That was the advice on the other thread too.
> 
> ...


I agree but actually, some of the responses I've received had been patronizing, mean, uncalled for and spiteful. And full of misdirected bitterness that they may feel towards someone else in their life.

Actually, we're hiding it mostly based on my advice.

They pay for his schooling and frankly, I think it's rather ridiculous to jeopardize that just so he can publicly declare his allegiance to me.

Once we're done with school and he no longer needs their money, we'll tell them.

If they don't like it, that's really their issue at that point. 

Their covertly racist comments over the years indicate that they won't.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> I think it is incredibly shallow to leave someone because they don't get as much physical enjoyment out of penetration as the other person does. It's borderline ridiculous actually because a lot of women don't get much from PIV.
> 
> If they genuinely ENJOY the sex and are enthusiastic about it, what do their reasons for enjoying it really matter?


Let me get real with you for a bit. This was my situation. 

Emotional needs are just as important as sexual needs. And sexual needs are just as important as emotional needs. For some women, the sexual needs _are_ their emotional needs. For some men, their sexual needs _are_ their emotional needs. 

For me, my primary emotional need is Admiration. My secondary emotional need is Affection. My third emotional need is Honesty and Openness. My husband, for the majority of our marriage, struggled with meeting those needs. I would ask him all the time, "Do you understand why this is so important?" and he would say, "Yes I do", but his actions wouldn't show it. He would meet those needs inconsistently, and it was clear that he didn't enjoy doing it. He was forcing himself to put up with it, essentially, because he knew it was important to me. 

But because his heart wasn't in it, he rarely lasted more than a few weeks. So he'd stop. I would go months without my emotional needs being met. I would try to go without it. Ignore the pain I felt. Ignore the feeling of rejection. I tried using sex to cover up and mask the pain I felt inside, and sometimes it worked. But eventually I'd become incredibly resentful and angry and hurt, and I'd try telling him but he wouldn't change his behavior. 

I didn't want him to be some cheesy romantic who quoted Jane Austen to me and danced with me with a rose between his teeth. He's not that guy. But I wanted him to meet my needs; I wanted him to _want_ to meet my needs. I mean, if you knew that something would make your wife the happiest she's ever been in her life, and it's not something drastic like spending thousands of dollars on expensive jewelry or something, why would you _not_ want to do it? 

I fell out of love with him. I couldn't take it. Not only were his efforts inconsistent, but I could tell that he was only doing them so that I'd be satisfied for however long. 

_His Needs, Her Needs_ painted a very clear picture that my husband finally heard; if he wasn't going to meet my needs, I would get them met from someone else. 

Now, you say that so long as you're enthusiastic, it should be enough. But that's the thing: enthusiasm can be faked. And it's not hard to tell when someone is really enjoying what they're doing, or not. My husband has learned to enjoy meeting my needs. My reaction when he comes home with flowers, or when he tells me that he's proud to be with me, make all the difference. And seeing him happy and excited when he comes home with those flowers, instead of ho-hum pessimistic, makes the actions or the words mean so much more. 

Knowing that you're wanted by your spouse is one of the most powerful bonds. Sex isn't just the physical, and a man's desire for his wife to enjoy sex isn't because he wants porn star sex, it's because it communicates to him that his wife wants _him_ as much as he wants her. For me, my husband's enthusiasm and excitement in meeting my needs communicates how much he wants me and how hard he's willing to work to keep me. If he continued to half-ass it, I wouldn't feel wanted, even if the actions themselves "met" what I outlined as needs. Having a lot of sex and being enthusiastic doesn't necessarily convey a real _desire_ for your fiance.



> I am working on enjoying it from a physical standpoint but if it is really the intimacy that is so important, I don't understand why I have to be writhing in ecstasy for it to "count."


You seem to think that physical enjoyment and emotional intimacy are mutually exclusive, but they aren't. In fact, they compliment each other and the _best_ sex involves both. The physical ecstasy is the physical proof of the emotional intimacy, and the emotional intimacy is a product of the physical ecstasy. Take either one away and sex is reduced to less than it was meant to be. 

It's good that you're working on enjoying it more. I'd be willing to bet that once your boundaries are set in place and enforced, and your fiance starts being more responsible, that your physical enjoyment might increase on its own. Resentment, pressure, and having negative feelings for our SO can drastically reduce physical pleasure in sex. 



> I asked my fiancé if he enjoyed our sex and his response was to knock me off the sofa and do it yet again.
> 
> Actually, I kind of liked it. More than usual, anyway.


Which is good, but if he knew you didn't enjoy it his reaction would be quite different. A lot of men can't enjoy sex if they knew their wives don't enjoy it, which is why mutual satisfaction is so important. Men don't just want to jack off inside of a vagina; they want the experience to be mutually pleasurable. That doesn't mean the sex has to be wild and hot and crazy every time. Just that both people are enjoying what's happening on an emotional level and a physical level.



> I understand nobody wants a dead lay but saying *you have to enjoy it in every way, just as much as I do or I'm gone* is highly, highly intimidating.


No one is saying that. Psychologically women don't usually enjoy sex in the exact same way as men. I don't think I enjoy it even half of the same way as my husband most of the time. But I get both emotional and physical enjoyment out of it. That's the point. You don't have to be roaring hot, dripping wet for your fiance every time he wants you, or even every time you want him. Desire can be subtle. But to be satisfied with _only_ the emotional cheapens the sexual relationship for both of you. If you can learn to appreciate and enjoy the physical as well, you will have come a long way and mastered what many women and men suffer with.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

jaharthur said:


> Obviously Created2Write is a fake ID created by some horny guy whose wife wouldn't respond to a 3:00 am booty call.
> 
> Just kidding, of course. Wise words, also coming from a young twenty-something; one with wisdom beyond her years.
> 
> But is that wisdom being heard?


Oh yeah. And my avatar pic is of my niece, or something. lol.


----------



## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> Every single day.
> 
> Sometimes more if I'm not too sore.
> 
> ...


I wonder how 20 year olds are in law school. How old were you when you got your undergraduate degrees?


----------



## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I agree but actually, some of the responses I've received had been patronizing, mean, uncalled for and spiteful. And full of misdirected bitterness that they may feel towards someone else in their life.
> 
> Actually, we're hiding it mostly based on my advice.
> 
> ...


So you're convinced that this is the way to go. So be it. 
You and your fiance are being controlled by his parents money. 

I dare say that he doesn't need their money to go to school but prefers it to working to go to school like the majority of those who choose a secondary education. 

I believe his parents know about the two of you but choose to ignore it. What do they think he's doing when he's with you? After school they will continue to control him with money, you might not need it but I will guess that he may. 

Back to the original point. Boundaries. Set them, be firm. 
If he is not truly there for the sex all will become apparent when you do this. Ask for his follow through on things that matter to you. Be truthful with yourself and him. 

Ignore the advice and attacks as you put it as you'll only get sidetracked from your original post. Stay on topic, just as you need to do with your fiance.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> Let me get real with you for a bit. This was my situation.
> 
> Emotional needs are just as important as sexual needs. And sexual needs are just as important as emotional needs. For some women, the sexual needs _are_ their emotional needs. For some men, their sexual needs _are_ their emotional needs.
> 
> ...


This is very insightful. :agree:

I think part of the reason I don't enjoy it is because I'm thinking "You have to like this or you are a bad fiancé and you will be kicked to the ****ing curb."

Those aren't exactly sexy thoughts. Men are adamant that if it's not enjoyable for her, they don't want it. They don't want duty sex, they want their wives to want the sex as much as they do.

But biologically, aren't women programmed to want sex less than men? And why is our most pleasurable sexual organ so far away from the glory hole, so to speak? That seems a little unfair. I understand the need to be desired but physically, men are pretty much guaranteed to get off during sex. Not so much for us. 

It sounds a little unfair to expect women to react to sex in the same way men do. I truly try to make an effort- to be honest, it would be a lot easier to keep my legs closed- but I'm not interested in easy. I'm interested in him. 

Well, tonight I'm going to say no to him.

He's probably going to look at me like I've grown a third head.

I need to see his reaction first, to know how best to proceed.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

lovesherman said:


> I wonder how 20 year olds are in law school. How old were you when you got your undergraduate degrees?



I was 18 when I graduated college, I finished in a bit less than 3 years.

I zoomed through middle/high school via college credit (not because I'm some kind of genius but because I have insane parents who both did the same thing) By the time I graduated high school, I was halfway done with college. 

College classes every single summer, sometimes more, since circa 11 years of age. 

It wasn't a very happy childhood and frankly, I feel like it was a disservice to my emotional growth.


----------



## coupdegrace (Oct 15, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Scenario 1:


To most men, spending a good deal of money for a nice time out = sex, so this is his expectation. I think it was a smidge ticky-tack to bring up chores before sex, though. If you asked him to give you one of his famous back rubs, and he asked "Did you prepare dinner" before-hand, how would that make you feel? Just trying to present the other side.



LittleBird said:


> Scenario 2: Is this unreasonable of me?


Absolutely not. You have to go to work, and the bills are not going to pay themselves. He needs to grow up in this situation and keep it in his holster. 



LittleBird said:


> Scenario 3: I'm on the couch watching a movie. He's been away for a few days at some stupid (maybe stupid) camping trip/male bonding thingy.


For me, as a personal rule, I don't interrupt my wife with sexual requests if she's in the middle of something. Perhaps you should establish some kind of boundary.

Does your man work? It sounds like all he does is hang out with his friends playing video games all day long... then again, he _is_ only 20.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> This is very insightful. :agree:
> 
> I think part of the reason I don't enjoy it is because I'm thinking "You have to like this or you are a bad fiancé and you will be kicked to the ****ing curb."
> 
> Those aren't exactly sexy thoughts. Men are adamant that if it's not enjoyable for her, they don't want it. They don't want duty sex, they want their wives to want the sex as much as they do.


They aren't sexy thoughts, that's true. But the harsh truth isn't usually very sexy, and we all have to accept the truth and move forward. 

You aren't a bad fiance, or a bad person. But, you may not be the right woman for your fiance, and that's just the truth. I was in a position before my husband and I were together where I was in a relationship with a guy in the military. He was across the country for me, and I was utterly in love with him. We never had sex, or even kissed. He was heavily into alcohol and the majority of the time he called me he was either drunk or hungover. 

He chose the alcohol over me. He wasn't a bad person, but alcohol was something he couldn't live without. So, even though I was the only woman who'd ever not cheated on him, he sacrificed that for the sake of the alcohol. 

Now obviously sex is more important than alcohol, but I said that say this: a man and woman can be compatible in every other way, but if they aren't compatible in sex, the chances of the marriage being a happy one are slim. You're doing such a wonderful job and being open and learning and trying to like sex, but the truth of the matter might(MIGHT) be that the two of you aren't sexually compatible. And that's okay. It doesn't make you a bad person, it just means that you would both be happier with someone else. 

Before thinking about that though you need a good amount of time where you're setting boundaries, enforcing them, and working on liking sex for the physical and emotional. Try that first. And don't think about, "I need to like this or I'm a bad fiance". You'll never like it with those thoughts. Let the pressure wash away, and see what happens when it's just you and him in intimacy. 



> But biologically, aren't women programmed to want sex less than men?


No. 



> And why is our most pleasurable sexual organ so far away from the glory hole, so to speak? That seems a little unfair. I understand the need to be desired but physically, men are pretty much guaranteed to get off during sex. Not so much for us.


That's why God gave men tongues. It sounds like your fiance needs to learn to give good oral sex. Maybe try buying a book on oral sex in Barnes and Noble, and see if it helps. Ours did.  And, by the way, I didn't have my first vaginal orgasm until a year after marriage. But even without the orgasm, sex is physically enjoyable for me. 



> It sounds a little unfair to expect women to react to sex in the same way men do. I truly try to make an effort- to be honest, it would be a lot easier to keep my legs closed- but I'm not interested in easy. I'm interested in him.


Not in the same way. You're hung up on that. You don't need to respond the same way. Of men wanted a male's reaction to sex, they'd be with a man. You don't need to react the same way as your fiance. 



> Well, tonight I'm going to say no to him.
> 
> He's probably going to look at me like I've grown a third head.
> 
> I need to see his reaction first, to know how best to proceed.


Good idea. But don't just say, "No." That will make him mad. Say no, and then tell him whatever it is you want; do you want to wait a week, build the anticipation, and then go for it? Do you want him to try focusing on the intimacy more? Voice your sexual wants. Even if it's just one thing, it's the first step to making the sex mutual, for you AND him.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> They aren't sexy thoughts, that's true. But the harsh truth isn't usually very sexy, and we all have to accept the truth and move forward.
> 
> You aren't a bad fiance, or a bad person. But, you may not be the right woman for your fiance, and that's just the truth. I was in a position before my husband and I were together where I was in a relationship with a guy in the military. He was across the country for me, and I was utterly in love with him. We never had sex, or even kissed. He was heavily into alcohol and the majority of the time he called me he was either drunk or hungover.
> 
> ...


:smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup:

This is a really good idea.

Well actually I'm on my period and as nice as I am, if he pokes me while I'm on my period I give him my "Come near me with that and you're losing it" look because I have DEATH cramps and sex is pure misery for me at the moment. 

I'm just going to explain it to him. If he wants the sex frequency to keep up the way it is, he's going to have to grow up and I'm going to have to get past some things.

We both need to grow up to solve this.


----------



## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

LittleBird said:


> Ok but now I'm getting annoyed. He basically ignored my request to do anything but sit around and play X Box.
> 
> But on the other hand, he just spend 200 bucks for dinner.
> 
> ...


You're falling into a common trap here. The sex and the cleaning are different issues. You're combining them, which is confusing.

I think you should have had sex and not cleaned up. The next day, you can address the kitchen. That way, everything's separate.

Also, by cleaning up, you're communicating to him that his leaving the dishes was fine. You need to work on making your non-verbal communication consistent with your verbal communication. That will go a long way to getting through to him.



LittleBird said:


> Scenario 2
> 
> It's 3 am.


I would say that it depends on the context. If this is the first time he's been up for middle of the night sex in months, then it's a quickie is a fairly reasonable request. If he asks once a week, or you just had sex the day before, it's much less reasonable.



LittleBird said:


> "Noriiii...."
> 
> "No."
> 
> ...


I think you also need to work on that rejection. An occasional no is fine. But it seems like you tried that, and then went with a p!ssy yes so that he would leave you alone. If you say no, and you're being reasonable, stick with it.



LittleBird said:


> I'm on the couch watching a movie. He's been away for a few days at some stupid (maybe stupid) camping trip/male bonding thingy.


I think this is the most unreasonable scenario for you. He was away for days and missed you. He wanted to express his love for you and you were more interested in the movie.

I know you say that you just wanted to finish and for him to warm you up, but that's not the way you communicated it to him.

Here's how men think of sex. We experience and express love through sex. If we love you, we want to bang you. That's just how we think. I understand that you don't think that way. But, you have to understand that we do.

Your boyfriend missed you and wanted to ravish you. And what you communicated to him was basically, "I'm not interested in you showing me how much you love me right now." That's a serious rejection. I know you didn't mean it that way. You look at it much more physically. You just didn't want something poking you at the moment. But that's the way he took it.

I agree with Created2Write that you don't seem compatible. It's great that you both love each other and do nice things for each other. But you don't seem to understand each other and sync up well.

Generally, the engagement period is the high point of your life. You get along as well as you ever will. You desire him more than you ever will. You love him as much as you ever will. Yet you seem to harbor these resentments and have these problems.

Once you graduate from school, your life will not get less stressful. It will be more stressful. You will look back on your school days fondly and wonder what you ever stressed about. If you're having problems with your boyfriend now, you will very likely have more problems with him in a few years.

Good luck.


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

PHTlump said:


> You're falling into a common trap here. The sex and the cleaning are different issues. You're combining them, which is confusing.
> 
> I think you should have had sex and not cleaned up. The next day, you can address the kitchen. That way, everything's separate.
> 
> ...


Thank your for this. 

Well, honestly, my problem with Scenario 3 is that he knows I don't like to be greeted by a boner instead of a human being and decent greeting. 

I try to meet him halfway by allowing the sex, I wish he would meet me halfway by taking the time to make me feel like more than his live in vagina for a couple of minutes.


----------



## Thoreau (Nov 12, 2012)

Please. Quit using the word "allow" in this manner.


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Thoreau said:


> Please. Quit using the word "allow" in this manner.


Sadly, it is an accurate word to describe how I felt about the sex in that particular instance.

I honestly felt like he was being a brat and that I was allowing him to get the shiny toy even though he'd been screaming his head off in the supermarket all day.


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## Thoreau (Nov 12, 2012)

You don't use that word TO him do you?

How would you feel if it were reversed?


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Thoreau said:


> You don't use that word TO him do you?
> 
> How would you feel if it were reversed?


There isn't a conversation when he wants sex.

He either just does it or asks and I say "Yes"

He's not the most patient when he wants something


----------



## Tony55 (Jun 8, 2012)

You seem smart, look at all your posts in the mirror, imagine it was him saying these things about you, would you still want to marry him? Can you answer that honestly?

T


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Tony55 said:


> You seem smart, look at all your posts in the mirror, imagine it was him saying these things about you, would you still want to marry him? Can you answer that honestly?
> 
> T


It also happens to be the truth.

If that were my truth, I'd do something to change it. 

Also, I love him to death despite all of this. Loving him and recognizing he's not perfect aren't exclusive. 

If I'm green and my fiancé tells me I'm green, it doesn't mean he doesn't love me.

It means I'm green.


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## Tony55 (Jun 8, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> It also happens to be the truth.
> 
> If that were my truth, I'd do something to change it.
> 
> ...


But it's not your truth, it's his, right? The things you've complained about here, in this forum, is his truth, correct? And you said, if that were your truth you would change it, right? But it is your truth, because you're living through it, with him, so change it... show him this thread; and let the chips fall where they may.

T


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Tony55 said:


> But it's not your truth, it's his, right? The things you've complained about here, in this forum, is his truth, correct? And you said, if that were your truth you would change it, right? But it is your truth, because you're living through it, with him, so change it... show him this thread; and let the chips fall where they may.
> 
> T


If I were a man complaining that my wife wasn't sleeping with me, I'm sure you'd have something different to say. 

But as a woman complaining that she doesn't always want to sleep with her husband, clearly I have serious problems.


----------



## Thoreau (Nov 12, 2012)

Don't regress LB....I was just starting to feel hopeful for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Vanguard (Jul 27, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> Let me guess. Your wife cut you off and now you're bitter at every woman who doesn't snap her legs open like a revolving door.


Who's bitter?

I'm just giving you a very honest and frank picture of what's going on. It's unfortunate that you react to reality in such a volatile manner. Whether you represent yourself or your husband accurately is not ascertainable or even relevant, at least not in this conversation. 

What is relevant is how your husband perceives you. And the truth is that if he truly believes that you are neglecting him, continually refusing him, he is going to find someone who will give him what he needs. If this realization causes you to lash out at me or others it's regrettable, but you heard it here first. 

I'm not saying he would be right or wrong. I'm just telling you what's going to happen. Your anger is misplaced.

*EDIT:* Bad "guess", by the way.


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

WhiteMousse said:


> Who's bitter?
> 
> I'm just giving you a very honest and frank picture of what's going on. It's unfortunate that you react to reality in such a volatile manner. Whether you represent yourself or your husband accurately is not ascertainable or even relevant, at least not in this conversation.
> 
> ...


I have never rejected him. Not one single time, even when it as been totally reasonable too.

Mostly because of all the men on here cheating on/leaving their wives.

I've learned to keep the vagina on all access, thanks.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Thoreau said:


> Don't regress LB....I was just starting to feel hopeful for you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You have no idea the tug of war that goes on inside my pretty, pretty little head. :scratchhead::smthumbup:


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## Thoreau (Nov 12, 2012)

He didn't say rejected, he said neglected. There is a difference. Words mean things.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Thoreau said:


> He didn't say rejected, he said neglected. There is a difference. Words mean things.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He said neglecting, continually refusing. 

Let me break it down. 

He gets minimum 2 blow jobs a day (this I like doing, this was my idea). I think most men on TAM would sell their right arm to be getting that. 

He also gets daily sex. Without fail, regardless of whether or not I feel like doing it. I have gotten the impression from TAM people that only having sex when I feel like it is selfish.

But having sex when I'm not really desirous of it is also selfish.

A lovely place to be, for Little B. Perhaps you can understand my frustration that he could possibly be neglected, when I have spoiled him to the point of it being slightly sad.


----------



## Vanguard (Jul 27, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> I have never rejected him. Not one single time, even when it as been totally reasonable too.
> 
> Mostly because of all the men on here cheating on/leaving their wives.
> 
> I've learned to keep the vagina on all access, thanks.


Just because you're having sex with him doesn't mean he's not feeling neglected. I've counseled some couples who have sex quite frequently but one or both still feel neglected and rejected. People do things begrudgingly all the time. Believe me, I see it all the time in church.

You can't say that you're fulfilling his needs just because you have sex with him. Again, I'm not saying you're wrong or bad or whatever you seem to have interpreted. 

But if you really care for him, you can't afford to be this rigid about things. 

Maybe you don't want to be with him? Is that a possibility?


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## Thoreau (Nov 12, 2012)

2 a day? Minimum? He may be desensitzed. Stop equating YOUR self worth to a mouthful of c0ck. It doesn't make you woman of the year.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

WhiteMousse said:


> Just because you're having sex with him doesn't mean he's not feeling neglected. I've counseled some couples who have sex quite frequently but one or both still feel neglected and rejected. People do things begrudgingly all the time. Believe me, I see it all the time in church.
> 
> You can't say that you're fulfilling his needs just because you have sex with him. Again, I'm not saying you're wrong or bad or whatever you seem to have interpreted.
> 
> ...


He is perfectly happy, unless he's the best actor ever. According to his friends, he never shuts up about how lucky he is.

Which makes me happy, which in turn makes it easier for me to make him happy even though sex isn't my favorite activity. 

If the sex isn't fulfilling his needs, by God someone tell me so I can stop. 

My fiancé is a sweet man but he is petulant. He is. I mean, it's probably his least attractive quality. My least attractive quality is my freakish ability to change my personality to fit the situation- mildly sociopathic tendencies. No, not fake it- really *change* it, like flipping a card. I even start to feel differently. It's rather scary really, my therapist is going to make a lot of money off me.

Yes, I do admit to it. I dealt with a sociopath for many, many years and the only way to deal with that and stay sane is to develop a defense- that is to say, I learned from the best. 

But we both have good qualities as well and I'm trying to work through our less than pretty qualities for our mutual happiness. 

I want him to be fulfilled and happy but I would also like him to do the ****ing dishes once every once in a while. 

Something I've noticed about people.

As long as they're getting what THEY want, you can talk into you are blue in the face and it may or may not get through.

It's like telling a rat not to do something but giving them cheese anyway.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Thoreau said:


> 2 a day? Minimum? He may be desensitzed. Stop equating YOUR self worth to a mouthful of c0ck. It doesn't make you woman of the year.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I really can't win with you people, can I?

And for the record, that is HIGHLY, HIGHLY insulting.


----------



## Thoreau (Nov 12, 2012)

It should be.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Thoreau said:


> It should be.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, thank you for acting like a child who resorts to petty personal insults to make a point...based on zero fact.

You remind me of my 3 year old nephew.

I did nothing to you and I did nothing wrong. This is the last time I'm going to be civil.

Bye bye.

Just kidding mate. You know I love/hate you.


----------



## Thoreau (Nov 12, 2012)

Were you civil when you told me to f*ck off earlier? You switch gears quicker than a model a going uphill. I kinda admire your tenacity.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Thoreau said:


> Were you civil when you told me to f*ck off earlier? You switch gears quicker than a model a going uphill. I kinda admire your tenacity.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I drink a lot on Fridays, mate. :smthumbup:


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## Thoreau (Nov 12, 2012)

And I bet your 3 year old nephew is cuter than a bugs ear. Thanks for the compliment.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tony55 (Jun 8, 2012)

You felt insulted by Thoreaus' comment, yet you invite such comments with your own descriptions of your life as a yes girl...


I missed HIM, not his penis though. His penis I can wait more than ten minutes before I say hello to.
I find it depressing that the first thing he wants when he walks in the door is my hand on his penis.
Let me guess. Your wife cut you off and now you're bitter at every woman who doesn't snap her legs open like a revolving door.
It's that he can ignore everything that comes out of my mouth and then decide to pay attention to me when it comes to my vagina.
I understand nobody wants a dead lay
to be honest, it would be a lot easier to keep my legs closed- but I'm not interested in easy
Come near me with that and you're losing it
I don't like to be greeted by a boner instead of a human being and decent greeting.
I wish he would meet me halfway by taking the time to make me feel like more than his live in vagina
I've learned to keep the vagina on all access, thanks
He gets minimum 2 blow jobs a day (this I like doing, this was my idea)

You may be smart, but you lack tact in writing; not to mention you talk about your sex life like a sailor in a bar. Don't get offended when someone replies in kind. Is this how you talk to your fiance?

Also, you really need to get over this male/female paradigm you seem to be hung up on.

And one more thing, mate, we're not real big on using drunkenness as an excuse for ones behavior.

T


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Tony55 said:


> You felt insulted by Thoreaus' comment, yet you invite such comments with your own descriptions of your life as a yes girl...
> 
> 
> I missed HIM, not his penis though. His penis I can wait more than ten minutes before I say hello to.
> ...


Nobody is excusing anything. 

I don't feel the need to excuse myself for anything.

I am tipsy, yes but that is a statement of fact. An excuse would imply that I'm sorry...which I'm not.

I was told to be more blunt so I'm being blunt. Sailor in a bar? So be it. 

And no, I call him Pooh Bear. I haven't used his real name in a month now. 

Trust me, he's just fine.


----------



## Thoreau (Nov 12, 2012)

What are you drinking?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Thoreau said:


> What are you drinking?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't buy liquor so whatever **** he gets from his friends- the selection of the day is Captain Morgan. It tastes like armpit to be honest but we're out of wine.

Also, I'm not 21 so SHHHHH don't tell my mummy.

:smthumbup:

See how random the two of us can get T?

I love it. 

And before anyone calls me an alchi, I only drink when I'm upset.

Oh wait. :rofl:


----------



## romantic_guy (Nov 8, 2011)

Ok...you guys are young. He seems a bit selfish to me, but there are things that you need to learn also. BTW we got married at 16 & 17 (she was pregnant) and I was a selfish jerk in those days too. After 40 years we have both grown in ourselves and in our relationship. 

For #1: I don't think it is wise to withhold sex to get a man to do what you want. How do you get a man to do what you want? Here is a great article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/25/fashion/25love.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

For #2: Just let him know that sex in the middle of the night is not your thing. It is not my wife's thing either.

For #3: Just say, "Hey babe...lets cuddle up naked on the couch while I finish the movie. I'll make it worth your while!" We do this all the time. Spooning naked on the couch during a movie is awesome!


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## Tony55 (Jun 8, 2012)

curious2 said:


> i read read the first few pages and also the other thread where the whole thing started, missed a lot i'm sure. i agree mostly with the arguements against her but believe many are pouncing because of the issues in their own personal lives. fact is she has been abused and what she needs is compassion and understanding. she is acknowledges her issues and needs support and understanding. yet she's being hung out to dry. if anything it should give more insight to why some women hate sex....the ones who dont have anger, resentmenttowards their partner that have killed that desire. give her a break.


I see no discussion of abuse in this thread and some people don't care to play thread hopping to track down someones elusive story.

If abuse is a factor to be considered in the OP's topic then the OP should include it.

T


----------



## Vanguard (Jul 27, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> I really can't win with you people, can I?
> 
> And for the record, that is HIGHLY, HIGHLY insulting.


You're a highly insulting person; it's possible he thought your own vernacular would resonate better with you.


----------



## Stonewall (Jul 5, 2011)

I can only speak from my experience. We have been married 35 years and together almost 38 now. We made a pact before marriage to never say no to each other and have never broken the pact. It has worked well for us. It kept us connected through those tough times.

I believe that connection provided the energy to work through those tough years. We dealt with the other issues in different ways. 

If I were you I would not disconnect in order to deal with his lack of cleaning or whatever. Find another way to handle that. 

Sex to a man says I love you. You don't want to tell him I only love you when you clean!


----------



## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> He treats you indifferently and then whines or guilts you into sex because it works. When it no longer works, he will quit. If I gave my dog cookies every time he soiled the carpet, the dog would quickly figure that I like his little presents on the carpet. We train others how to treat us. If you had told the guy, "I was in the mood for sex till until I got home and saw the mess you left for me to clean up. I feel disrespected and taken for granted and you're so not getting laid tonight." he'd be able to link his sorry behavior with the consequence of not getting laid. At 3:00am, he bugs you for sex, you turn him down, he persists, you get up and go to the couch without him getting any slap and tickle, he'll soon figure out that "no" means "no". The common features here are selfishness and disrespect. He's shocked that a movie is more important than you but his Xbox was more important than you all day and getting his rocks off was more important than your needs at 3:00am. See a pattern? If he expects to be valued, he needs to value you.


:iagree:

I haven't read the entire thread.
But what is consistent in all three scenarios in the OP is that her husband is_ bugging_ her for sex.
That's not how it works.
Sex is a high priority for him , but he is neglecting her needs and still expects her to fulfil his needs.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

WhiteMousse said:


> You're a highly insulting person; it's possible he thought your own vernacular would resonate better with you.


I started this thread with the best of intentions.

I said nothing remotely offensive in my original post and still, I was once again the target of some people's misguided bitterness at their own lives.

NOTHING I said did anything to merit that "self worth/cum in your mouth" comment.

I'm really done talking to you now, this is so far from the point.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> :iagree:
> 
> I haven't read the entire thread.
> But what is consistent in all three scenarios in the OP is that her husband is_ bugging_ her for sex.
> ...


THANK YOU. 

My God no one is saying off with his penis or stop sleeping with him, I was simply asking if it was unreasonable of me to not meet his expectations in certain instances where he makes ZERO effort to meet mine. 

Honestly, thank you for responding the the actual point.


----------



## Thoreau (Nov 12, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I started this thread with the best of intentions.
> 
> I said nothing remotely offensive in my original post and still, I was once again the target of some people's misguided bitterness at their own lives.
> 
> ...


I didn't say "cum".  :rofl:


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

LittleBird said:


> I started this thread with the best of intentions.
> 
> I said nothing remotely offensive in my original post and still, I was once again the target of some people's misguided bitterness at their own lives.
> 
> ...


And as for you, you read my thread and immediately jumped to an inappropriate conclusion that I was a refuser or a withholder and you treated me with the attitude you'd treat someone like that.

I say again, if I were a man who switched this around, I highly doubt you'd jump to such conclusions.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Stonewall said:


> I can only speak from my experience. We have been married 35 years and together almost 38 now. We made a pact before marriage to never say no to each other and have never broken the pact. It has worked well for us. It kept us connected through those tough times.
> 
> I believe that connection provided the energy to work through those tough years. We dealt with the other issues in different ways.
> 
> ...


This is very true but I sleep with him every day and it hasn't seemed to motivate him to get off his bum bum.

If sex is his love language, isn't that the only thing he is going to understand?

I am basically telling him I will always reward his needs and desires even if he ignores mine.

I don't think that's a good pattern to start.


----------



## Thoreau (Nov 12, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> And as for you, you read my thread and immediately jumped to an inappropriate conclusion that I was a refuser or a withholder and you treated me with the attitude you'd treat someone like that.
> 
> I say again, if I were a man who switched this around, I highly doubt you'd jump to such conclusions.


As for who???


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Tony55 said:


> I see no discussion of abuse in this thread and some people don't care to play thread hopping to track down someones elusive story.
> 
> If abuse is a factor to be considered in the OP's topic then the OP should include it.
> 
> T


Well I didn't include the abuse because I didn't think it was relevant to these situations.

I try not to factor that into my sexual decisions. That seems like a really nasty Pandora's Box.


----------



## Tony55 (Jun 8, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Hello folks. I'm going to give you three scenarios and I'd like both the male and female perspective one each one. These are three scenarios I commonly find myself in with my fiancé.
> 
> Our sex life is great for him, tolerable/decent for me (which is okay with me)
> 
> ...


To answer your original question directly, of course it's appropriate to say no, no one should have to have sex every single time someone else wants to. I'm sure there are other times in day to day life when you have to tell him no, why should sexual intercourse be any different that that?

T


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Tony55 said:


> To answer your original question directly, of course it's appropriate to say no, no one should have to have sex every single time someone else wants to. I'm sure there are other times in day to day life when you have to tell him no, why should sexual intercourse be any different that that?
> 
> T


Thank you. :iagree:


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> If I were a man complaining that my wife wasn't sleeping with me, I'm sure you'd have something different to say.
> 
> But as a woman complaining that she doesn't always want to sleep with her husband, clearly I have serious problems.


Thoughts like these are only going to make your progress slower. It is essential that you start listening to the men here. Your fiance doesn't seem interested in working with you, so listen to the men here and absorb what they have to say. You won't be able to truly see things from a male perspective otherwise, and that is crucial to any progress you're going to make. I guarantee that when you go and buy those books and start reading them, you're probably going to feel highly defensive. Considering what you've been through, I'd say that's understandable. However, you really must keep an open mind, and saying these sorts of things is only going to strengthen the already negative conditioning your mind has towards sex. 

This isn't going to be an easy process. One great lay isn't going to cure you. This is going to take a lot of mental and emotional work on your part, and being willing to _listen_ to opinions that you don't like, and considering that they may be true, is important for this process.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> Thoughts like these are only going to make your progress slower. It is essential that you start listening to the men here. Your fiance doesn't seem interested in working with you, so listen to the men here and absorb what they have to say. You won't be able to truly see things from a male perspective otherwise, and that is crucial to any progress you're going to make. I guarantee that when you go and buy those books and start reading them, you're probably going to feel highly defensive. Considering what you've been through, I'd say that's understandable. However, you really must keep an open mind, and saying these sorts of things is only going to strengthen the already negative conditioning your mind has towards sex.
> 
> This isn't going to be an easy process. One great lay isn't going to cure you. This is going to take a lot of mental and emotional work on your part, and being willing to _listen_ to opinions that you don't like, and considering that they may be true, is important for this process.


I will work on it.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> I have never rejected him. Not one single time, even when it as been totally reasonable too.
> 
> Mostly because of all the men on here cheating on/leaving their wives.
> 
> I've learned to keep the vagina on all access, thanks.


Firstly, you need to learn that it's okay to say no. One reason you aren't enjoying sex, as you've said, is the pressure to always be ready for it. But the reality is that you _can_ say no. Just be careful _how_ you say it, as I said before. I can't stress the importance of that enough. 

Secondly, you need to learn that it's also okay to enjoy sex. Your aversion to it, and your defensive reactions when men leave their wives over it, confuses you, I know. But your experiences with it have _not_ been normal. You need to learn how to _make love_. Making love is emotionally and physically mutual, where both spouses are left fulfilled and satisfied. It goes beyond the physical pleasure, although the physical pleasure is one of the most important parts of the intimacy. (There's not really any intimacy is the sex isn't enjoyable, imo) 

This is going to take working with your fiance. It's not going to happen with just you doing all you can, _he_ has to change how he has sex with you, too. It can't be all about him.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> He said neglecting, continually refusing.
> 
> Let me break it down.
> 
> ...


LB, I know you don't care for the impression being given by posters here; that you could, somehow, be neglecting him while giving him that much sex. And technically, you're not. But this is where the physical enjoyment comes in, and is also why men need more than mere quantity and enthusiasm: a man's(well, I man who loves his wife/partner) sexual fulfillment is not based on whether or not he gets off, but whether or not his wife enjoyed him. You said that you can't enjoy sex if you know your fiance isn't enjoying it; it's the exact same for men. They don't get full fulfillment out of intercourse if they know or sense that their wives aren't physically being pleasured. 

So please, listen to what these men are saying. They've seen your willingness to learn, so please..._learn_ from them. Many of them have gone through a lot of issues in their marriages and can attest, firsthand, to the results when a woman is defensive when it comes to the bedroom. They're not attacking you, they're trying to help.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> He is perfectly happy, unless he's the best actor ever. According to his friends, he never shuts up about how lucky he is.
> 
> Which makes me happy, which in turn makes it easier for me to make him happy even though sex isn't my favorite activity.
> 
> ...


Have you started setting boundaries and enforcing them yet? Honestly, one thing that occurred to me last night is that, while you love your fiance, you may not respect him. It's difficult to enjoy sex with someone you've lost respect for, especially when he's getting what he wants and you're not. 

Now, the solution is not to suddenly say, "No sex until you do the dishes!" No. Sex should never be a reward. It's one thing to joke about it, "Oh yeah, he bought me diamonds last night so man, oh man, was he rewarded!" But to actually make it a reward, "You won't get sex until you do xyz" will only cause more issues. I don't think you're doing that, but I wanted to clarify that that is not what I mean by enforcing boundaries.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> Firstly, you need to learn that it's okay to say no. One reason you aren't enjoying sex, as you've said, is the pressure to always be ready for it. But the reality is that you _can_ say no. Just be careful _how_ you say it, as I said before. I can't stress the importance of that enough.
> 
> Secondly, you need to learn that it's also okay to enjoy sex. Your aversion to it, and your defensive reactions when men leave their wives over it, confuses you, I know. But your experiences with it have _not_ been normal. You need to learn how to _make love_. Making love is emotionally and physically mutual, where both spouses are left fulfilled and satisfied. It goes beyond the physical pleasure, although the physical pleasure is one of the most important parts of the intimacy. (There's not really any intimacy is the sex isn't enjoyable, imo)
> 
> ...


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> I really can't win with you people, can I?
> 
> And for the record, that is HIGHLY, HIGHLY insulting.


LB, they're trying to HELP you! 

Listen, my husband has never, ever, told me, "I'm unhappy" unless I've asked him. Your fiance may take the sex he's getting because it's better than nothing, and yes, he may still be unhappy inside. And Thoreu is RIGHT: giving a lot of blowjobs and having sex everyday doesn't make you wife material. I know he said it in a blunt way, but please. You're a very smart person. Surely you can handle bluntness. 

I could get oral sex every day, and be unhappy and sexually unfulfilled. If I knew that my husband would rather be doing anything else but giving me oral sex, it would make my orgasm seem empty. 

Now, I recommend slowing down the sex a little. And tell him why. He needs to learn to woo you, seduce you. He needs to man up and make sex about you too, and not just himself.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> LB, they're trying to HELP you!
> 
> Listen, my husband has never, ever, told me, "I'm unhappy" unless I've asked him. Your fiance may take the sex he's getting because it's better than nothing, and yes, he may still be unhappy inside. And Thoreu is RIGHT: giving a lot of blowjobs and having sex everyday doesn't make you wife material. I know he said it in a blunt way, but please. You're a very smart person. Surely you can handle bluntness.
> 
> ...


Equating "my self worth to a **** in my mouth" is like stepping on a land mine with me.

Major ticking point.

Sorry if I over reacted.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> This morning I made him breakfast and we had a talk.
> 
> Me: Sweetheart, we need to have a conversation about our sex life.
> 
> ...


Good for you! A few times a week is great! Now, when you do have sex, teach him how to make love _with_ you, not just do things _to_ you. And then, when he's done something you wanted to try, ask if there's something he wants to try. He needs to understand that it's about both of you. He's might not get it right at first, but don't give up. He's conditioned to get what he wants and you're changing that. 

Also, enforce boundaries outside of the bedroom. Ask him to do something, and if he doesn't do it, make sure to tell him that a relationship involves two people working together and that he needs to do his fair share. Perhaps not those words, you know him best.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> Equating "my self worth to a **** in my mouth" is like stepping on a land mine with me.
> 
> Major ticking point.
> 
> Sorry if I over reacted.


The thing is that it seems like you DO equate your self worth to how much you have sex and suck his penis. You've let him walk all over you, and now you have a mostly one sided relationship. You need to start putting yourself first, and showing him that he needs to do that too. 

Also, learn to control your ticking points.


----------



## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

LittleBird said:


> This morning I made him breakfast and we had a talk.
> 
> Me: Sweetheart, we need to have a conversation about our sex life.
> 
> ...


LittleBird, I am on record earlier in the thread supporting your idea of setting boundaries, but I have to be honest in that this conversation was not the best.

I am pretty sure he heard that he isn't performing sexually to your standards, he isn't performing relationship-wise to your standards, he's a lousy lover and that your idea of more fulfilling sex is less sex. As a result of all this, even though you don't want to "give" sex, you are going to "take" it away for a while.

That's a lot to take away from a brief conversation - it has a very mother-child, controlling feel to it.

Just my two cents, of course.


----------



## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

LB, good on you for speaking to him. It's not easy, but gets easier with time. :smthumbup:

My wife and I like to have a LOT of sexual tension between us. Always wanting to be HOT for one another. We frequently hug, kiss and just snuggle watching a movie. Last night, in bed, I was kissing her, caressing her, telling her how much I loved her and visa versa. We gave each other a massage. We didn't make love and I didn't go near her vagina of breasts, nor did she go near my penis. It was fantastic and set the mood for this morning. More kissing and holding and who knows where this will lead and when. It could be tonight or maybe tomorrow night, BUT we're both peaking ATM. IMHO this leads to the couple _wanting_ each other _at all times_ and has helped our marriage tremendously! Yes, there are days where we will make love several times, but sometimes we try and hold off as long as possible to make that desire so intense it's insane!

I guess my point is, wham bam thank you mame, is not what sex is all about nor a marriage. 

I hope that makes some sense...


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Acorn said:


> LittleBird, I am on record earlier in the thread supporting your idea of setting boundaries, but I have to be honest in that this conversation was not the best.
> 
> I am pretty sure he heard that he isn't performing sexually to your standards, he isn't performing relationship-wise to your standards, he's a lousy lover and that your idea of more fulfilling sex is less sex. As a result of all this, even though you don't want to "give" sex, you are going to "take" it away for a while.
> 
> ...


I am sorry if it came across this way. 

Truthfully, he is sort of a selfish lover....but I can't fault him for that since I've never said anything. Each person is responsible for their own fulfillment. 

The reason I chose to speak to him like this is because otherwise, he thinks I'm kidding or that I'm not serious.

I hate to say the only way he looks at me as more than "sweet, fun Nori" is when I use my 'lecture' voice.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

T&T said:


> LB, good on you for speaking to him. It's not easy, but gets easier with time. :smthumbup:
> 
> My wife and I like to have a LOT of sexual tension between us. Always wanting to be HOT for one another. We frequently hug, kiss and just snuggle watching a movie. Last night, in bed, I was kissing her, caressing her, telling her how much I loved her and visa versa. We gave each other a massage. We didn't make love and I didn't go near her vagina of breasts, nor did she go near my penis. It was fantastic and set the mood for this morning. More kissing and holding and who knows where this will lead and when. It could be tonight or maybe tomorrow night, BUT we're both peaking ATM. IMHO this leads to the couple _wanting_ each other _at all times_ and has helped our marriage tremendously! Yes, there are days where we will make love several times, but sometimes we try and hold off as long as possible to make that desire so intense it's insane!
> 
> ...


This is a fantastic idea.

It's hard to explain the idea to him that the way to get me more into sex is to have less of it.

That's a mind**** for him


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Acorn said:


> LittleBird, I am on record earlier in the thread supporting your idea of setting boundaries, but I have to be honest in that this conversation was not the best.
> 
> I am pretty sure he heard that he isn't performing sexually to your standards, he isn't performing relationship-wise to your standards, he's a lousy lover and that your idea of more fulfilling sex is less sex. As a result of all this, even though you don't want to "give" sex, you are going to "take" it away for a while.
> 
> ...


I disagree. She was calm and respectful, and was putting herself first. It's not healthy to have the mindset that she has to have sex with him every day, and give him two blow jobs on top of it, nor is it healthy for him to GET that unless they are _mutually_ enjoying it. But they're not. HE is. 

I think it was a great talk. And, frankly, he isn't pleasing her in bed so he needs to know. He's not doing his fair share, and he needs to know. And his pouting proves that this is just what he needed. He needs to grow up because, right now, he IS being childish.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> I am sorry if it came across this way.
> 
> Truthfully, he is sort of a selfish lover....but I can't fault him for that since I've never said anything. Each person is responsible for their own fulfillment.
> 
> ...


Perhaps you two could do couples counseling? He really needs to man up and realize that marriage isn't about self, but about _both_ people working at making the relationship work.


----------



## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

LittleBird said:


> I am sorry if it came across this way.
> 
> Truthfully, he is sort of a selfish lover....but I can't fault him for that since I've never said anything. Each person is responsible for their own fulfillment.
> 
> ...


I think the content of the conversation was terrific and think it was great you stood up for yourself!

If you can, try to use a little more "I" and a little less "you". You can say the same things but they come across more as a LittleBird boundary rather than a dictate.

Example: "I haven't been fulfilled lately and there are some things outside the bedroom I really need us to work on so that I can be comfortable inside the bedroom. Right now I'm not enjoying sex all that much, but I really want to and I really want to make you happy too. I know if you help me with this, even if it means a little less focus on sex for a while, it will lead to an even better sex life for both of us in the long run."

That's maybe not perfect but you get the idea - he's part of the solution and not being told he's the problem.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> This is a fantastic idea.
> 
> It's hard to explain the idea to him that the way to get me more into sex is to have less of it.
> 
> That's a mind**** for him


And honestly, a few times a week is a very good amount. He's not being neglected with a few times a week, although he may act like it at first. 

And it's not like you have to have a set frequency. There are times when you could do it once a week, or every day, or every other day. So long as both of you are fulfilled and mutually satisfied, there's no issue with frequency.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> Perhaps you two could do couples counseling? He really needs to man up and realize that marriage isn't about self, but about _both_ people working at making the relationship work.


Excellent idea.

I suggested this. He laughed it off "Babe, we aren't old". I asked him what problems he thought we had in our relationship.

He frowned and went "Nothing really."

I asked if he was dissatisfied with anything. The house?

"No, always clean."

The food, the financial situation, the sex etc?

"No, you're great at all of that. I never have to worry about that stuff."

Me: "Exactly."

Him: "Ohhhhhhhhh."


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

I don't mean to sound rude, but what do you get out of this relationship (emotionally) ?


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

abitlost said:


> I don't mean to sound rude, but what do you get out of this relationship (emotionally) ?


:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

He's been my best friend since I was 3 years old.

He proposed to me when were both five or six, under a big willow tree with a candy ring...then he ran when I tried to kiss him. In short, we are a Taylor Swift song. 

He is petulant, spoiled and stubborn. He is also the only person in this world I actually give a **** about on anything more than a cordial level.

Cradle to grave, my dear Abi. Cradle to grave.


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

I mean meant what do you actually get out of your relationship, does he make you feel safe, loved, wanted, respected ect.
I only ask because you talk a lot about what you do for him to make him feel happy and loves but there's
very little said about what how he reciprocates.


----------



## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

abitlost said:


> I mean meant what do you actually get out of your relationship, does he make you feel safe, loved, wanted, respected ect.
> I only ask because you talk a lot about what you do for him to make him feel happy and loves but there's
> very little said about what how he reciprocates.


I do feel that he loves me. He's a romantic, he writes me poetry, dedicates songs to me, etc.

He's just not a very practical person. When we were children, I didn't need him to be practical or responsible. I just needed him to be sweet.

I need him to grow up with me. His love needs to evolve with age.


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

Best way I have found to do that (previous bf), do your fair share of cleaning ect and don't touch his share. Words are good but actions are a lot more effective.


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## Tony55 (Jun 8, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Him: Is it not good physically?
> 
> Me: Not really.


The discussion was fine, this particular part was a mistake, you just put a dent in the car (his self esteem), you can hammer it out and touch it up, but the damage is still done.

T


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Tony55 said:


> The discussion was fine, this particular part was a mistake, you just put a dent in the car (his self esteem), you can hammer it out and touch it up, but the damage is still done.
> 
> T


I feel like this is unavoidable. I tried to be as nice about it as possible. I told him fifteen times it wasn't his penis, what is it with men and that, it's actually a bit too big for comfort fyi.

If he's a big boy, he should be able to recognize that it's better for me to be honest than for me to spend the next 40 years faking it.

I think...


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## romantic_guy (Nov 8, 2011)

LittleBird, correct me if I am wrong, but it seems like all you really want is some help around the house and some non-sexual affection. If that is the case, those are two things that many men can have a hard time understanding. Do you think he would read a book with you? That is one thing that we do and in the course of reading, we can discuss the author's point in a rational manner.


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

romantic_guy said:


> LittleBird, correct me if I am wrong, but it seems like all you really want is some help around the house and some non-sexual affection. If that is the case, those are two things that many men can have a hard time understanding. Do you think he would read a book with you? That is one thing that we do and in the course of reading, we can discuss the author's point in a rational manner.


Thank you. I feel like his favorite activity is sex. Which it might well be but it would be nice to feel like he enjoyed my company when I wasn't naked. :iagree:


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## romantic_guy (Nov 8, 2011)

I forgot to say that I have some book recommendations if you are interested. Oh yes, I rarely get sex everyday...usually only when we are on vacation together. I think he should thank his whining a$$ he has you! Just remember it takes time to mature and much work to make a relationship last.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> I feel like this is unavoidable. I tried to be as nice about it as possible. I told him fifteen times it wasn't his penis, what is it with men and that, it's actually a bit too big for comfort fyi.
> 
> If he's a big boy, he should be able to recognize that it's better for me to be honest than for me to spend the next 40 years faking it.
> 
> I think...


LB, there is no way that you can be honest with him at this point and not risk hurting his feelings. It's not possible. But, one reason is because there isn't much trust between you. Not mutual trust, anyway. He needs to have honesty from you, or else his trust will only be based on his getting his own way, while your trust dissipates. So, I think the conversation was good. I wish he had been less pouty, but it's to be expected in the early stages. 

And, as time goes on and he sees you getting more involved in the sexual relationship, he'll realize that it wasn't his penis that was the issue. He has a lot to learn about women and relationships if he's going to be a successful husband. But with your honesty, this will greatly help him.


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## romantic_guy (Nov 8, 2011)

Created2Write said:


> He has a lot to learn about women and relationships if he's going to be a successful husband. But with your honesty, this will greatly help him.


I am so glad I have a very patient wife. It took me a very long time! The other thing in all of this is you have as much learning about him as he does you. The book, "Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus" did not sell so many copies for nothing! We truly speak different languages. Add to that can be the fact that our love languages can be opposite and no wonder relationships are so hard! Men have different needs from women. Both people must be willing to learn about the other.


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> LB, there is no way that you can be honest with him at this point and not risk hurting his feelings. It's not possible. But, one reason is because there isn't much trust between you. Not mutual trust, anyway. He needs to have honesty from you, or else his trust will only be based on his getting his own way, while your trust dissipates. So, I think the conversation was good. I wish he had been less pouty, but it's to be expected in the early stages.
> 
> And, as time goes on and he sees you getting more involved in the sexual relationship, he'll realize that it wasn't his penis that was the issue. He has a lot to learn about women and relationships if he's going to be a successful husband. But with your honesty, this will greatly help him.


I really didn't want to hurt his feelings but what I have realized is I have allowed myself to become a doormat.

I'm not going to be harsh about it but I have to be blunt with him at least until he learns to take me seriously when I speak. 

"Honey, will you please do the dishes form breakfast, I need to run to the store before they get crowded."

I come home, of course they aren't done (He was on Level 13!) 

So for once I didn't do them. He asks about dinner. 

"I'd love to cook sweetie but I don't cook when there are dishes in the sink, it leads to a messy kitchen. I can't relax when things are too messy."

He blinks at me.

"You were serious?"

"Yes, honey."

"Oh, okay. I'll do them now."


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## romantic_guy (Nov 8, 2011)

So I Guess you read that article about Shamu???


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## Stonewall (Jul 5, 2011)

LittleBird said:


> This is very true but I sleep with him every day and it hasn't seemed to motivate him to get off his bum bum.
> 
> If sex is his love language, isn't that the only thing he is going to understand?
> 
> ...


My point is when the dog poops on the carpet you don't not feed him for a day or so because he won't make the connection to his mistake. 

You need to find a way to correct his misbehavior that connects the punishment directly to the behavior and do so in a timely manner.

You know they say all men are dogs anyway so treat him as such!


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Stonewall said:


> My point is when the dog poops on the carpet you don't not feed him for a day or so because he won't make the connection to his mistake.
> 
> You need to find a way to correct his misbehavior that connects the punishment directly to the behavior and do so in a timely manner.
> 
> You know they say all men are dogs anyway so treat him as such!


Sex, the way I view it at least, is not really a "reward" but IMO it kind of is. In that, you don't give the doggy a treat for pooping on the carpet, scratching the couch and generally being a brat. 

Not like a special rewards but it is something very intimate and personal and for me to do it when I'm actually ****ing pissed at him is going to build a lot of resentment. 

I see your point though.


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