# my emotions on the decision to divorce



## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Ms. Hawaii said:


> You’d rather die than get a divorce?


I've never had much success talking to you, so this may be pointless. For some reason that I don't fully understand the two (divorce and death) are linked in my mind and emotions. Often I'm asked why I continue in an unsatisfactory relationship. I think that the reason is that every time my thoughts go down the divorce path, they end up at the death destination. Is it because I don't see myself as having value outside of a relationship? Is it that I have been so well indoctrinated about the permanency of marriage that Ending one seems like a bigger ending? I know, intellectually, that divorce will not end up in death. In fact at this point of life, I'd probably come out ok. No Kids, not a lot of assets to split, She is earning more than me. Since I said What I said, and since you asked, I'm willing to talk about why these things are so connected to me. If (as I suspect) it's too weird, I've lived with this for a long time, so I don't really need to talk about it.

Some of my beliefs that may or may not be relevant:
Marriage extends beyond death.
Death is not the worst thing that can happen to you, but it is rather the one thing that will happen to everyone.
Divorce was never the intent, but rather it is a stop gap solution because people can't live the higher law.
The average length of a marriage in my country is about 1/5th of the length of my current marriage. I'm well over the average.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

I'm very sorry that you're suffering. 😔

If you don't want to divorce, is it not possible for you to carve out a satisfactory life for yourself? On your own?

Did you say once that you're a cabinet maker? And that you enjoy kayaking? 

Do you have an extra bedroom in your house that you could take for yourself?

Life is so full of interesting and fun things to do and see. It's a shame to not take advantage.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Mr. Nail said:


> Marriage extends beyond death.


For me, this is a pleasant thought. In your shoes, I would be pulling my hair out.

Have you discussed this with your Rabbi?


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## Bibi1031 (Sep 14, 2015)

I am trying to figure out how to navigate the changes to TAM. I'm getting better. 

So you are a diabetic like me. That damn decease won't be the death of me, but the darn ***** is kicking my behind for a little over 8 years now. 

I finally got my blood work to go down to a normal A1c level. This has been one of the hardest things to conquer and not for lack of trying.

Going mostly plant based was finally the solution I found to get the pesky insulin resistance under control.

Now I eat fruits and my blood levels every morning are under 94. This has been consistent for 3 months! I still can't believe it. I couldn't touch fruit for the life of me. Now, I eat mango, banana, berries, oranges, papaya and melons to my heart's content and with controlled portions of course. 

I achieve this by adding one very important prebiotic powerhouse that is dirt cheap...flaxseeds! 

I sprout these suckers up and sprinkle them on anything I can. I eat all the fruits I want as long as I add flax and coconut milk mix into the smoothies I create with the fruit. I can eat half a cup of any fruit 3 times a day as long as that fruit is accompanied with half a cup glass of the flax milk mix. 

These tiny seeds have changed my life for good. I eat a ton of sprouts. I grow most of my greens and enjoy them right out of my garden. I eat lean beef, chicken, pork or fish only once or twice a week.

I eat avocados every day along with one or two eggs every other day or so. My energy is through the roof too!

Please give mostly plant based diet a try. Sprouts and especially flaxseeds are a must of course. 

I hope this helps.


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## Bibi1031 (Sep 14, 2015)

Mr. Nail said:


> Marriage extends beyond death.
> 
> Divorce was never the intent, but rather it is a stop gap solution because people can't live the higher law.


I believe in these as well. The first one I always knew, but I used the second one to protect my children and their financial well being.

Then, I lost my footage and decided I could find love and happiness again and married a second time. That was a total failure as well as a huge lie I fell for. 

I know better now. I know that marriage and our blood lineage extend beyond death. 

For me these two are also pleasant thoughts.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

So you would rather carry around bucket loads of resentment the rest of your life? This concept is hard to comprehend.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Mr.Married said:


> So you would rather carry around bucket loads of resentment the rest of your life? This concept is hard to comprehend.


Resentment/bitterness/unforgiveness seems to me to be self-imposed and not necessarily done away with with a divorce.

There are tons of divorced people on this site who're still _very_ angry.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

minimalME said:


> Do you have an extra bedroom in your house that you could take for yourself?


Two rooms that are occupied by adult children 28 and 29. The plan was to be living in one of those about 4 years ago. 
I have several good tents.



Blondilocks said:


> Have you discussed this with your Rabbi?


I have deliberately put off that conversation for 2 years. I'm not comfortable with divorce or marriage. 



Mr.Married said:


> So you would rather carry around bucket loads of resentment the rest of your life? This concept is hard to comprehend.


My life expectancy is well under 20 years.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Mr. Nail said:


> I have several good tents.


😂


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

minimalME said:


> Resentment/bitterness/unforgiveness seem to me to be self-imposed and not necessarily done away with with a divorce.
> 
> There are tons of divorced people on this site who're still _very_ angry.


That is so ........accurate!


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

Mr. Nail said:


> My life expectancy is well under 20 years.


Why?


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

If you believe that marriage extends beyond death, then you’ll be with her for eternity and never be free?

That certainly could be part of it. Along with having no value without the marriage. My guess is that she doesn’t want a divorce either so no pressure from her to end it.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

If you can’t work on your health for yourself, I hope you can do that for your children. I know from experience that it’s very difficult for an adult child to watch a parent deal with a chronic condition when the parent has some control over the outcome and chooses not to exercise that control. I think you want to punish your wife for not being supportive but hopefully your children aren’t included in that.


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## Ms. Hawaii (Mar 28, 2018)

Mr. Nail said:


> I've never had much success talking to you, so this may be pointless.


I genuinely don’t remember any unpleasant interactions with you.

My intention wasn’t to criticize you. It makes me sad seeing you remain in this situation. 



Mr. Nail said:


> For some reason that I don't fully understand the two (divorce and death) are linked in my mind and emotions. Often I'm asked why I continue in an unsatisfactory relationship. I think that the reason is that every time my thoughts go down the divorce path, they end up at the death destination. Is it because I don't see myself as having value outside of a relationship? Is it that I have been so well indoctrinated about the permanency of marriage that Ending one seems like a bigger ending? I know, intellectually, that divorce will not end up in death. In fact at this point of life, I'd probably come out ok. No Kids, not a lot of assets to split, She is earning more than me. Since I said What I said, and since you asked, I'm willing to talk about why these things are so connected to me. If (as I suspect) it's too weird, I've lived with this for a long time, so I don't really need to talk about it.
> 
> .


I don’t think it’s weird. Why are they connected?




Mr. Nail said:


> Some of my beliefs that may or may not be relevant:
> Marriage extends beyond death.
> Death is not the worst thing that can happen to you, but it is rather the one thing that will happen to everyone.
> Divorce was never the intent, but rather it is a stop gap solution because people can't live the higher law.
> The average length of a marriage in my country is about 1/5th of the length of my current marriage. I'm well over the average.


What benefit do you get by staying with your wife? 

Do you think fear of the unknown or being alone is holding you back? 

From what you’ve shared, your wife doesn’t like you. Your kids would want you to be around for years. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Mr. Nail, your weight and your marriage are two separate issues. No need to lump them together. Both require you to be mentally healthy enough to be strong willed so you can exert self-discipline, make decisions for yourself, not be dependent on another person or food, and deal with each thing separately. One may trigger the other, but fixing one doesn't fix the other.

You have a mountain to climb. No one should be minimizing it. But you are the only one with control over how to get it done. I don't know if your marriage is really bad or if you are just depressed and everything seems bad. I didn't go back and read past posts, sorry. I can't remember everyone's story. Just reading what's on here, just seems to me that you are letting life happen to you instead of being in control of your life.

It might be that if you lived alone, it would be easier to diet. I don't know why your focus is on your wife sleeping until 10 since I often sleep until 10 and still get my work done. Sorry to just single out that one thing, but why would you expect her to have the same schedule as you prefer? I don't know how bad the marriage is, but her reading up late doesn't seem like a big deal to me. If you feel she's no longer involved in your life, time to move on. If you're just mad because she doesn't live on your schedule to please you, that's unreasonable. If you are supporting her and she doesn't work and doesn't have kids to tend to, then that is something you should probably stop doing and make a change. Unless you are the one who didn't want her working, which was the case with my best friend, because her husband thought that would give him full authority over her, but it doesn't and shouldn't.

You need to take control over what YOU do, because as any shrink will tell you, you have zero control over what anyone else does. You have put yourself in this position and only you can take yourself out of it if it's the root of your unhappiness. Sitting around waiting and hoping for someone to do things your way is a colossal waste of time.

I hope you keep your diabetes under control. I know it's very hard to do so and not easy to stop a rolling train. The only person I know who has controlled it has done it with Weight Watchers constant dieting and cooks healthy. She still fails to always keep the weight off on her short frame even though she's been doing things right for decades. She never was an unhealthy eater. She was an alcoholic 30 years ago though. No alcohol, no artificial sweeteners, both of which are thought to convert to carbs in the system. That makes it rough on some people. Drink water, lots of water and stop making what you drink a thing.

My sister has blood sugar problems though not diabetes proper because her pancreas is highly deteriorated. She almost died 10 years ago from pancreatitis and was hospitalized for 6 months. She was obese going in, lost 80 lbs in the hospital, and came out and put it right back on.

But she is controlling her blood sugar and she's on insulin. She has no self-discipline, never has, and has never eaten well, mainly fast food, but the way she's doing it that works for her is she eats badly but eats the same thing at the same time every day pretty much that she's learned the right amount of insulin will control it. So she's become very routine. I can't believe it's working, but it is. She eats a fast food sausage biscuit every morning and throws away one half of the biscuit. She found something that works for her as well as could be expected.

I guess what you're doing isn't working, so time to simplify and find what works for you and separate it from whatever else is going on. When you're diabetic, you need absolute control over what you eat and when. You can't be on someone else's schedule or depend on anyone else. You just have to do it yourself. You can't expect someone else to bend their schedule around to match yours though.

Take a big step out of the mud.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

The idea of marriage surviving death is something I've not thought of before. It's rather frightening, in terms of changing one's view of divorce. Because it essentially says there's really no such thing as divorce if you're married to that person for eternity, in the herafter. Or am I totally missing this?

At what point do you become married in eternity? Is it when the vows are read? 

@Mr. Nail, I am very sorry for what you are going through. Having said that, it's also possible you've just added a new way of thinking about divorce, which suddenly means that I have no real choice in the matter, and choice, or should I say agency, is what was lacking when I got married. I really did not need yet another new way of looking at things. So yes, sorry for what you're dealing with, but no so happy what you've opened my eyes to.


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## Bibi1031 (Sep 14, 2015)

I know that my Marriage was done through my Christian Church. I could get an annulment through the church, but God is not the church. God is God and He doesn't do divorce. Your bloodline is tied to the partner you married in front of family, friends, and above all God. What God joins in matrimony, man can't dissolve. 

I argued this. I even married someone else. It was a mess. It was wrong. I learned the hard way why God has rules and order. Why not even He that is almighty and all knowing won't bend those rules or that order. 

Just my two cents worth here.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

Mr. Nail said:


> *My life expectancy is well under 20 years.*


So? I would rather live one year of full happiness with myself in the knowledge that I lived it with my dignity, and self respect intact, rather than another 20 years of a miserable life cowering under the pretext that I don't have too long to live, or that marriage and death may or may not be linked one way or another.



Mr. Nail said:


> I* have deliberately put off that conversation for 2 years. I'm not comfortable with divorce or marriage.*


This is very telling of you. You seen to be one of those individuals so uncomfortable with yourself that you most likely lack the courage to do anything that would rock the boat in circumstances that are of high decision making. Probably you might be a conflict avoidant individual. A lot of your posts indicate that, and that you prefer to live under the status quo of a possible abusive? relationship already dead. It's just the divorce that hasn't happened yet to complete your death cycle.


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

Casual Observer said:


> The idea of marriage surviving death is something I've not thought of before. It's rather frightening, in terms of changing one's view of divorce. Because it essentially says there's really no such thing as divorce if you're married to that person for eternity, in the herafter. Or am I totally missing this?


Some religious doctrine says the first person with whom you have sex is your mate for life. Uh oh.


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## Bibi1031 (Sep 14, 2015)

Sfort said:


> Some religious doctrine says the first person with whom you have sex is your mate for life. Uh oh.


Not really. Most christian religions believe in staying pure until marriage. Both partners need to be pure when entering the sacrament of holy matrimony. And yes, that marriage is for eternity. Scary indeed because the whole thing is hard to do.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Mr. Nail said:


> I've never had much success talking to you, so this may be pointless. For some reason that I don't fully understand the two (divorce and death) are linked in my mind and emotions. Often I'm asked why I continue in an unsatisfactory relationship. I think that the reason is that every time my thoughts go down the divorce path, they end up at the death destination. Is it because I don't see myself as having value outside of a relationship? Is it that I have been so well indoctrinated about the permanency of marriage that Ending one seems like a bigger ending? I know, intellectually, that divorce will not end up in death. In fact at this point of life, I'd probably come out ok. No Kids, not a lot of assets to split, She is earning more than me. Since I said What I said, and since you asked, I'm willing to talk about why these things are so connected to me. If (as I suspect) it's too weird, I've lived with this for a long time, so I don't really need to talk about it.
> 
> Some of my beliefs that may or may not be relevant:
> Marriage extends beyond death.
> ...


If these are your beliefs, and you are living them the way you believe is best and (most importantly) RIGHT...why aren't you happy with that? Is it not enough to have the satisfaction of actually living your principles? (I'm not being snarky, I'm really asking)

Wouldn't it be best to accept that you are willing to forego personal satisfaction in your marriage in order to live the "higher law", and find joy and satisfaction in THAT...and let that fill in the gaps for you and allow you to be happy and find joy in your life?


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Sfort said:


> Some religious doctrine says the first person with whom you have sex is your mate for life. Uh oh.





Bibi1031 said:


> Not really. Most christian religions believe in staying pure until marriage. Both partners need to be pure when entering the sacrament of holy matrimony. And yes, that marriage is for eternity. Scary indeed because the whole thing is hard to do.


@Bibi1031 , could you explain the practical distinction between being "married" to the first person you have sex with, and remaining pure until marriage? There is a fair body of Christian writing that supports the idea that you do bond in a permanent way when you lose your virginity to someone. I do not believe this to always happen, but I do believe it sometimes does happen, with tragic consequences when someone moves on and marries someone else down the road. Whether it happens or not is determined not by random chance but how someone was brought up. Their beliefs, their resiliency, their relationships with their mom & dad.


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## Bibi1031 (Sep 14, 2015)

Casual Observer said:


> @Bibi1031 , could you explain the practical distinction between being "married" to the first person you have sex with, and remaining pure until marriage? There is a fair body of Christian writing that supports the idea that you do bond in a permanent way when you lose your virginity to someone. I do not believe this to always happen, but I do believe it sometimes does happen, with tragic consequences when someone moves on and marries someone else down the road. Whether it happens or not is determined not by random chance but how someone was brought up. Their beliefs, their resiliency, their relationships with their mom & dad.


I don't understand what you mean by practical distinction. Can you elaborate?


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Mr. Nail said:


> Have you discussed this with your Rabbi?





Mr. Nail said:


> I have deliberately put off that conversation for 2 years. I'm not comfortable with divorce or marriage.





Rob_1 said:


> This is very telling of you. You seen to be one of those individuals so uncomfortable with yourself that you most likely lack the courage to do anything that would rock the boat in circumstances that are of high decision making. Probably you might be a *conflict avoidant individual*. A lot of your posts indicate that, and that you prefer to live under the status quo of a possible abusive? relationship already dead. It's just the divorce that hasn't happened yet to complete your death cycle.


"conflict avoidant", is just another pop psych label like "passive aggressive", it doesn't actually identify anything unusual. What Rob is saying here is that Mr. Nail has failed to have a conversation about the failure of a relationship that has been ongoing for 5-8 years. Well that conversation has been held. Many times. With predictable (if not particularly aggressive) results. What hasn't happened is an official legal action ending the relationship. Or in a religious interpretation, putting the relationship into a temporary hold / separation that could last for the rest of this physical existence. 

Anyway to return to Blondie's question: What would that conversation with my religious leader look like? I'm versed in the scripture, and I've read the commentary and the current interpretations. I understand that God intends us to live in a married state, but I don't actually see any long term happy marriages. Every single marriage that exceeded the 7 year average has either a current infidelity, a past indiscretion, or an emotional separation either present or past. Long term sexlessness is expected at some point. And in this environment I'm also expected to believe that happiness is also God's expectation. So for these reasons, I don't totally believe that we understand what God expects of us. I could in theory accept, Serial monogamy, Short term marriage, Separated marriage, or Loveless cohabitation. So dear religious advisor, I'm Married with a low level of interest in each others happiness and not seeking divorce because I'm not really interested in finding a love partner that I could now trust.

I do hope that you are confused.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Bibi1031 said:


> I don't understand what you mean by practical distinction. Can you elaborate?


I'm fairly sure that CO is saying that if you believe
A) Sex should only happen in a recognized marital relationship.
B) The Marital relationship is sanctioned by God and intended to be endless.
In a case where two people believe and practice these two doctrines then the first person (and only person) you have sex with is your mate (sole sexual partner) for eternity (not just for life). Now this is a very high standard that CO and practically every person who goes through life with their eyes open, doesn't believe anyone achieves. The implied question is, is this a standard that we want to achieve? And if it isn't, Why would we write it into our religion? (assuming a human influenced religion at least)


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Mr. Nail said:


> The implied question is, is this a standard that we want to achieve? And if it isn't, Why would we write it into our religion? (assuming a human influenced religion at least)


I looked this up to see where (if) this was written in the Torah, and I couldn't find it?

And I don't know about other religions, but this isn't a biblical thing. We're specifically told that there will be no marriages in eternity. (Luke 20:35)


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## joannacroc (Dec 17, 2014)

Mr. Nail said:


> I'm fairly sure that CO is saying that if you believe
> A) Sex should only happen in a recognized marital relationship.
> B) The Marital relationship is sanctioned by God and intended to be endless.
> In a case where two people believe and practice these two doctrines then the first person (and only person) you have sex with is your mate (sole sexual partner) for eternity (not just for life). Now this is a very high standard that CO and practically every person who goes through life with their eyes open, doesn't believe anyone achieves. * The implied question is, is this a standard that we want to achieve? And if it isn't, Why would we write it into our religion?* (assuming a human influenced religion at least)


Granted I am not religious, and don't wish to offend anyone, but it has been my observation reading religious texts that a lot of people have grown to see common religious understanding for their religion evolve with the times but the spirit of the text or rules survive. For example, the Biblical not coveting your neighbor's wife, I think common sense generally extends to other women, not just your neighbor's wife. But then when we interpret that in modern mindset, does that mean no coveting porn actresses, camera girls, that hot chick on instagram, movie stars etc. etc.

I feel like most people would feel that no, you're not supposed to be lusting after those people.

Sex only in marriage is a stickier conversation. I admit that before I moved to the US I didn't meet many people who believed that you should wait for marriage except maybe a couple of kids in my class who were orthodox jews. So is it a standard we want to achieve? I guess that really depends on the individual. It was never something presented to me as I was growing up. 

I guess my curiosity is, can you live by the spirit of what you believe, not get divorced, but say, move to your own place, live separately and just try for something that might make you happy? Other women don't necessarily need to be part of that, since you believe so strongly in the marriage contract. Even if our time on earth is limited, you can still make choices to live your life, help others, be happy, and contribute in a positive way to the world, without necessarily compromising the things that are important to you.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Mr. Nail said:


> Anyway to return to Blondie's question: What would that conversation with my religious leader look like? I'm versed in the scripture, and I've read the commentary and the current interpretations.


You might ask him/her to clarify what you've read. Afterall, he/she is a Rabbi and has more knowledge of your faith than the lay person. They may be aware of dispensations for those in your situation. They may ask if they can have a word with your Mrs. I get the impression that your wife has no idea just how unhappy you really are.

My wedding vows taken in a Christian church before God included the phrase "Until death do you part". No talk about eternity. Frankly; if 'eternity' were thrown in there, there might be fewer ceremonies. lol


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

Blondilocks said:


> You might ask him/her to clarify what you've read. Afterall, he/she is a Rabbi and has more knowledge of your faith than the lay person. They may be aware of dispensations for those in your situation. They may ask if they can have a word with your Mrs. I get the impression that your wife has no idea just how unhappy you really are.
> 
> My wedding vows taken in a Christian church before God included the phrase "Until death do you part". No talk about eternity. Frankly; if 'eternity' were thrown in there, there might be fewer ceremonies. lol


Maybe it should be "Until death do you part or for so long as he keeps his marriage vows".


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

joannacroc said:


> I guess my curiosity is, can you live by the spirit of what you believe, not get divorced, but say, move to your own place, live separately and just try for something that might make you happy?


My reading of divorce laws for this and many states says that, no there are legal pitfalls in being married to someone you don't live with. So as a practical result of living in the rule of law, It would be better to accept the religions tolerance of divorce. But there is no pressure for me to push ahead with that.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

minimalME said:


> I looked this up to see where (if) this was written in the Torah, and I couldn't find it?
> 
> And I don't know about other religions, but this isn't a biblical thing. We're specifically told that there will be no marriages in eternity. (Luke 20:35)


Matthew 16:19 contradicts that. Both are the recorded words of Christ.
And this is why there is so much confusion on this.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Mr. Nail said:


> Matthew 16:19 contradicts that. Both are the recorded words of Christ.
> And this is why there is so much confusion on this.


Okay. Well, I'm not finding anything confusing or contradictory. And I'm not finding anything that even relates this verse to marriage.

In context, the conversation was with Peter and the disciples in terms of their work. All the commentaries I've looked up agree with this.

I'll leave it at that. 🙂


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## Bibi1031 (Sep 14, 2015)

minimalME said:


> And I don't know about other religions, but this isn't a biblical thing. We're specifically told that there will be no marriages in eternity. (Luke 20:35)


Right. In eternity we are spirit, not flesh.

After death, the flesh dies but not the spirit/soul. Souls don't marry or procreate. It's not possible. Hence the stated fact "there are no marriages in eternity".


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## Bibi1031 (Sep 14, 2015)

Blondilocks said:


> My wedding vows taken in a Christian church before God included the phrase "Until death do you part". No talk about eternity. Frankly; if 'eternity' were thrown in there, there might be fewer ceremonies. lol


😂True regarding less marriage ceremonies. 

The talk about eternity and remaining pure until marriage is given to most Catholic Christian teens in youth retreats or classes. We also must attend pre nupcial classes as part of the process to get married through the church. Here is where the concept of why marriage through God is eternal. Here is also where we are told that contraception is not something God allows either. 

My upbringing and religious beliefs are from Mexico. Other Catholics around the world may not have these classes or retreats in their countries. My parents were from neighboring countries. My dad was American and my mother was Mexican. We lived in America, but my parents always sent us and attended the Mexican church.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

minimalME said:


> Resentment/bitterness/unforgiveness seems to me to be self-imposed and not necessarily done away with with a divorce.
> 
> There are tons of divorced people on this site who're still _very_ angry.


When you divorce, you rid yourself of the secondary affliction, leaving the primary infection to fester on its own.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Mr. Nail said:


> I'm fairly sure that CO is saying that if you believe
> A) Sex should only happen in a recognized marital relationship.
> B) The Marital relationship is sanctioned by God and intended to be endless.
> In a case where two people believe and practice these two doctrines then the first person (and only person) you have sex with is your mate (sole sexual partner) for eternity (not just for life). Now this is a very high standard that CO and practically every person who goes through life with their eyes open, doesn't believe anyone achieves. The implied question is, is this a standard that we want to achieve? And if it isn't, Why would we write it into our religion? (assuming a human influenced religion at least)


Because much of religion was written to maintain order in life and marriage. 

People need guidance, rules and standards, as does the Greater Civilization, from which smaller groups live under.

Religion provides these, hopefully for the Greater Good, as opposed to singular living.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

MN, it seems you have no belief or concept in/of, _Life, Part II._

Life, often comes to those junctures, with an available, left or right turn, yes, sometimes a round-about that permits a new direction or taking the second turn, and choosing the same path, the original avenue.

It is _change _that you resist. You have this self imposed inertia. You come under that _fixed _sign influence. 

You need to embrace _change, _don't always resist its pull. 

I will concur, change is not always a good thing. But, neither is a static existence. 

Depression [seemingly] has eroded your mettle, the metal in your iron nail being.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

SunCMars said:


> It is _change _that you resist.


But, Men Don't like change. Only folding money.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Mr. Nail said:


> But, Men Don't like change. Only folding money.


It is children that enjoy life the most, especially those little things that are 'near free'.

Children love the feel of hard, and jingling change, more than any smelly paper money.

Who then, is the wiser?


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Mr. Nail said:


> ... For some reason that I don't fully understand the two (divorce and death) are linked in my mind and emotions. Often I'm asked why I continue in an unsatisfactory relationship. I think that the reason is that every time my thoughts go down the divorce path, they end up at the death destination.
> ...
> Some of my beliefs that may or may not be relevant:
> Marriage extends beyond death.
> ...


@Mr. Nail ,

Before I continue further, I would like to be sure I understand a few things, as I have some questions I'd like to ask you. First, I see the USA flag beside your name--are you in the US? If you're not that could mean different cultural things, and thus, before I answer I like to know the audience. 

Second, am I correct to understand you are Jewish? Are you reformed, conservative, orthodox, or reconstructionist? Ultra-orthodox or Modern? Again, to me the answers to these questions mean different cultural things and thus would make understanding "where you're coming from" a bit easier. 

Until I hear the answers to these two questions, I'm going to address you as a typical American male with some general religion--how's that? Because honestly I think a person's belief system makes a big difference in how they think and what they value. It sounds to me as if you've been married a LONG time and it hasn't been the happiest of marriages but in your inner self you believe in sticking it out even if you don't particularly feel "happy" at this moment. You use the phrase "...live the higher law" and no matter what your religious practice, I think we all have a level of spirituality we believe humans should attempt to attain...and yet we fall short of that aim. So that's what I think you were saying: in marriages we may "aim for" lifelong fidelity, sexual compatibility, and mutual happiness...but in reality we fall short of that aim. And it sounds like your belief system is such that if a marriage falls short (infidelity, sexual mismatch or general unhappiness) that you don't just "give up" and divorce but rather stick with it, keep living the life that is a higher spiritual self, and keep working on yourself to be a better partner and spouse. Even if your spouse doesn't join you on that journey, that's okay because YOU are living by your beliefs, and living by beliefs is more valuable than a temporary emotion or sexual gratification in the short-term. 

Is that kind of where you're at? If so, I have to say I pretty much agree with you. Of course, I agree from a place where I have a completely committed and dedicated husband, who's very sexually compatible, and we are ecstatically happy--so it's quite different than your current situation. But if the situation were different, I tend to agree with you. I wouldn't "just divorce" either. I'd find a way to keep boundaries on myself to act in a committed way. I'd learn to handle sexuality in a way that was honoring to my marriage (like cold showers maybe LOL). I'd look for happiness in life in places that are appropriate but just not spouse-centric--such as doing a good job at work or being a spectacular mother or volunteering. 

In a weird way, I think I kind of "get" what you're saying.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Affaircare said:


> Before I continue further, I would like to be sure I understand a few things, as I have some questions I'd like to ask you. First, I see the USA flag beside your name--are you in the US? If you're not that could mean different cultural things, and thus, before I answer I like to know the audience.
> 
> Second, am I correct to understand you are Jewish? Are you reformed, conservative, orthodox, or reconstructionist? Ultra-orthodox or Modern? Again, to me the answers to these questions mean different cultural things and thus would make understanding "where you're coming from" a bit easier.


Resident of the Fly over States of America. Not Jewish. I don't really understand where that got started. My religion is a well known minority that is very misunderstood. We are encouraged to understand other religions, we are also encouraged to study and understand our own religion to a level not often seen in America. I bristle bit when I'm advised to go see my church leader. There is a fair chance I understand the doctrine better than my current leader (I've had more time to study it). I do believe that by a gift of the spirit My church leader should be able to advise me. We believe in both a higher and lower law. They are separate laws tailored to the needs of the people at the time. Currently we are held to the higher law. Like Christianity We believe that Divorce was not God's Plan, but something he allows due to the hardness of our hearts. Even under the higher law. Divorce is available to me, without punishment or much stigma. This was not the case earlier in my life. 

Divorce should not be needed if people (myself) can learn to forgive. That is what I am doing, Not trying to find solace in being a good carpenter.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Mr. Nail said:


> Resident of the Fly over States of America. Not Jewish. I don't really understand where that got started.


Okay thanks--good to know!



> My religion is a well known minority that is very misunderstood. We are encouraged to understand other religions, we are also encouraged to study and understand our own religion to a level not often seen in America. I bristle bit when I'm advised to go see my church leader. There is a fair chance I understand the doctrine better than my current leader (I've had more time to study it). I do believe that by a gift of the spirit My church leader should be able to advise me.


So I did go back and look at some of your previous postings (did my due diligence), and particularly found your thread about taking bits from other religions and did people think that was appropriate or did they think it was closer to cultural appropriation? I personally also classify myself as a Christian, in that I am a follower of Christ, but I also have studied several other religions deeply, everything from Wiccan to Judaism. As you may know, I am married to a Buddhist, and although that's not my path, I can clearly see that it is a beneficial path for my Beloved Hubby. So like you, I don't do "religion" just for the sake of tradition but rather to truly understand and be aware of what the meaning and intent are. In other words, don't just stand up and sit down "because we've always done it that way and our religious leader says to do it" but because you've studied WHY you stand at that time and what it means or symbolizes...

One of my biggest adjustments in life was going from a church leader who was older than me (and thus wiser and more studied) to now having leaders who are not only younger than me, but also had less opportunity to study! AND I'm a woman in a man-lead church...so they really don't listen to me! LOL But that's okay because my job is to learn and practice submitting and I can help them be a better leader if I appropriately follow, right? Anyway, I am sad to say that more often than not, when someone goes to their church leaders for "help" they often hope that the church leader will correct sin (like in the instance of infidelity, tell the unfaithful spouse to stop it) or help them figure out how to negotiate a really big issue (like in the instance of an abusive spouse)...and the church leader instead blames the person who came to talk to them and makes matters worse. YES...with the gift of the spirit they should be able to...and yet NO all too often, with little or no training and no life lessons or wisdom, they make the situation worse, not better. 



> We believe in both a higher and lower law. They are separate laws tailored to the needs of the people at the time. Currently we are held to the higher law. Like Christianity We believe that Divorce was not God's Plan, but something he allows due to the hardness of our hearts. Even under the higher law. Divorce is available to me, without punishment or much stigma. This was not the case earlier in my life.
> 
> Divorce should not be needed if people (myself) can learn to forgive. That is what I am doing, Not trying to find solace in being a good carpenter.


I ... am familiar with your particular minority group, I think, and I would say if that's your belief system then I can understand why you are making the choices you're making. Not that it's easy, but your actions in this life determine the next life...and you are attempting to "endure to the end."


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

My apologies for thinking you were of the Jewish faith.


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