# How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse



## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

** For this thread, assume you have a nice spouse and that you like your spouse. This isn't the place to bash bad spouses who are terrible by withholding sex as a manipulation tactic. Also assume you are a reasonably nice looking person with a good personality and not a lazy demanding ogre that no one would want to have sex with anyway.***

Assume that your marriage is good except for the lack of sex. You get along well with your spouse, and otherwise it's a good marriage except for missing that one important thing. Also assume that you have been married a long time (decades) and tried many things, but the intimacy just is no where close to what it needs to be. Your spouse just has little to no interest in intimacy and it's not going to realistically change. At some point you have to realize that things just aren't going to get better and you need to have a serious conversation with your spouse that you cannot go on living like this. How would you approach the divorce conversation and what would you say? Also, are there any alternatives to intimacy that you might consider for staying in the marriage?

Sometimes I try to think of what could be done to make me stay even without intimacy. Perhaps if my W took much more responsibility for housework and financial security. If I could retire early, I would be less stressed out and the lack of intimacy wouldn't be as big of a deal. But even then I'm not sure if it's enough. 

(I'm sure a lot of people may recommend duty sex, but that doesn't really work for me. I feel like I'm forcing her to do something she doesn't want, and I feel bad and don't enjoy it.)

So basically, how do you tell your spouse, "Although I love you, the lack of intimacy means I can't make it work and we should start planning for the inevitable."


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

You listen to Nike and Just Do It. You don't let the fear of hurting her feelings block you from doing what needs to be done. 

If you are asking "how do I say that without hurting her feelings", well, if you really are happily married then there is no way to say that and avoid hurting her feelings. Two things to keep in mind:

1. She seems willing to continue hurting your feelings by rejecting you again and again for the rest of your life. So just how "nice" is she, and just how much does she love you? I know you will say "she can't help it, she wishes she had more desire for me" but if she really loved you and really was gracious she would set you free and release you from your prison.
2. You are going to hurt her feelings sooner or later. If you never say those words, you will eventually come to hate yourself for staying and hate her for not being what you need. She will come to realize this, and then her feelings will be hurt that you hid your contempt for so long. So the question is not whether you will hurt her feelings, but when and how. Don't you think hurting her by telling the truth is the most honorable?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

YOu might want to have an alternative just in case the talk of divorce wakes her up to the fact that this is so important that you will leave over it.

Have you read the book "Mating in Captivity"? Some say that it's really turned things around and brought be the passion in their relationship. Just hoping that there is a way to fix this.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



wilson said:


> I'm sure a lot of people may recommend duty sex, but that doesn't really work for me. I feel like I'm forcing her to do something she doesn't want, and *I feel bad and don't enjoy it.*


*Some women find a lot or even all their validation and subsequent sexual pleasure by knowing that they have what it takes to really please their husbands. *

Meanwhile if you feel bad and don't enjoy it, you are essentially the one rejecting you wife sexually and teaching her that she does not have what it takes to please you. Therefor the thought of sex likely gives her anxiety by now as opposed to it being something she can enjoy with you.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

There's all this love, but no intimacy? I love my best friend. We have a great time going places when we get a chance. I love my dad, we constantly have incredible fun fishing and hunting and he always has my back and I his. I love lots of people and enjoy spending time with them. 
However, none of these people are my wife. The woman I want for my wife wants to make love to me as often as possible. She wants to be close to me physically if we're too tired for sex. I'll drive an hour just to spend the night holding her even if I'm not wanting sex. We are friends, but also lovers. We can't keep our hands off one another.

What you have is a great friend. It's natural that you don't want to lose that. However, in my honest opinion, she doesn't sound like a great wife.

You only have one life. Decide if you want to have a lover that is your wife, or a friend who is called your wife. 
I do totally see the painful decision you are being forced to make. It's gotta be tough. Good luck whatever you choose. Certainly a good friend is hard to come by, and hard to say goodbye to. I'm glad it's you having to make the decision and not me. However, from a person who is not emotionally involved with the situation---- I'd choose to have a lover who is also my wife, over a friend.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



badsanta said:


> *Some women find a lot or even all their validation and subsequent sexual pleasure by knowing that they have what it takes to really please their husbands. *
> 
> Meanwhile if you feel bad and don't enjoy it, you are essentially the one rejecting you wife sexually and teaching her that she does not have what it takes to please you. Therefor the thought of sex likely gives her anxiety by now as opposed to it being something she can enjoy with you.


I agree that can be an issue and is part of the underlying incompatibility. I don't know if that's really fixable. I always try to appreciate what she gives me and I am thankful for her effort, but there's only so many times I can do all the work. When it's pretty clear she would be just as happy (maybe even happier) by not doing it, it's hard to maintain enthusiasm.

It reminds me of the situation where you have a coworker who never seems to want to go to lunch. But if you keep asking and go to where they want to go, they'll go and have a good time. But then next time the process starts all over again where you have to convince them each time. After a while you realize that they probably would prefer not to go to lunch at all.


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## no name (Aug 4, 2016)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

A few more questions - 1)when you say sexless - what do you mean, eg are you still doing it 10/year ?? 2) when it does happen is it passionate? 4)have you had a deep n meaningful conversation with your wife about how you feel and why you need sex more often 4) Have you actively listened to her as to what her reasons are and what she needs? 

Understanding where each other is coming from would be a must before D is even considered. In this convo I dont think it's wise to mention the D yet . I think it would exacerbate the situation. D is a last resort. Maybe Come to a compromise with sex quantity instead? 


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

So, basically you're roommates. I'd probably discuss it with her in that way exactly - that you miss the intimacy that you once had, and that you feel like you're just roommates. If she starts becoming defensive and accusatory, definitely listen, but if in the end you are going to end up with the same result, then you probably should indicate that you are thinking of divorce. I've read a lot of threads on here about this, and it seems like some spouses just treat the other like a comfortable shoe after a while, and while it's probably nice to have comfort with someone over the years, it doesn't replace intimacy. 

You have to just have the talk, and not be afraid of her reaction to it.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

Start with the 180 and start enacting natural consequences. Lead her down the path so that when it happens she's not at all blindsided or surprised.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

"Spouse...this is the most difficult conversation I've ever had. But I have to have it with you. 

I've come to realize that I cannot be happy in a marriage that doesn't fulfill me sexually. I realize this is a very painful revelation and ultimately it means I am asking for a divorce. I truly regret it is coming to this. For years I have tried to live with limited sexual fulfillment. Doing so has finally made it clear to me that I don't want to do it any longer.

I propose that we take a few weeks to think about this discussion, but our focus should be on how we can most amicably separate and divorce".

If the response is "no I don't want to lose you, what can I do to change the course of this?" You must have prepared in advance your honest answer to this.

If you know there is no going back, you have to adult-up and say so in as kind of a way as possible.

If there is a way out, you must have this ready to clearly line out for your spouse...but only if it can reasonably be achieved by them.


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## JamesTKirk (Sep 8, 2015)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

Have a productive non-confrontational discussion (or series of discussions) about improving the sex life. Tell them that you don't want to be married to your platonic friend, but to the lover you married in the first place. If nothing else works, then try to get them to agree to scheduled sex (every Tuesday and Friday for example) as a LAST resort.
If that doesn't work tell them you feel like you've already lost your wife/husband because they no longer want intimacy and wish you knew hot to get it back. That'll move the conversation one way or another either to divorce or solution.
It's a way to make the ultimatum without making an ultimatum because people respond negatively to ultimatums.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



wilson said:


> I've been staying for the kids. I haven't explicitly told the wife that we'll probably get divorced, but we have had discussions where I've made it clear that I don't think the long-term outcome is good. I'm reluctant to commit to a divorce so far out when who knows what will change. And I don't think my wife would handle the situation well.
> *It was probably about 8 years ago that I realized we will probably get divorced when the kids grow up.*
> 
> After all this time, I think the only reason to stay together is if your kids have emotional issues and the divorce would greatly impact them. One of my daughters is somewhat delicate emotionally and I think a divorce would have crushed her and permanently changed her in a negative way. But if the kids are normal, then it's probably okay to divorce. Of course they won't be happy initially, but most kids will adjust in time.
> ...


Time to go. A decade of resentment and a sexless marriage? Do yourselves both a favor and move on. FW gave you some really helpful sentences to use.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

The chance of finding a sexless marriage that is otherwise perfect between healthy adults is about as much as my cat winning at Keeneland KY.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

Wilson, you've asked this same question about 5 times now over the last few years. You're stalling, and you're letting your life slip away. You either need to make peace with this or pull the trigger and do it.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

The first thing you have to do is to accept reality yourself. The likelihood that you're going to talk, threaten, cajole, sell, or otherwise change a spouse from being a iceberg into a hot, passionate, horny lover ain't going to happen. And it ain't a matter of them just changing their attitude.
A lot of people on this site seem to believe a person can gin up sexual desire by just realizing its generally part of a happy marriage and there spouse wants it. At best what you're getting than is duty sex and you'd be complaining about that.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

Thanks for the advice everyone. Yes, I have been stalling. It's finally coming to the end because the last of the kids have left. One of my kids has some emotional issues and I truly believe an earlier divorce would have thrown her off the rails and caused her long term emotional issues. Now's she's at the point that she'll be upset, but she'll be able to handle it and get over it. Knowing I was helping her was enough to keep me going, but now that we're past that there's not enough left.

It's been totally sexless for 3+ years, 8-10 times/year for about 10 years before that. We've discussed the issue many times over the marriage and she's made genuine efforts to improve (gone to dr, read books, etc), but the spark never gets lit. I truly can't fault her or say she didn't try hard enough. 

I've read enough stories here to know I'm lucky that she has made genuine efforts. As I've said before, my wife is better than most in this situation in that she will go along with it if I do all the work to initiate, but it feels very hollow. I can feel that she doesn't desire me, and that leaves me empty. Without desire, I don't feel loved. So I've sidestepped the whole thing by not initiating so I don't have to deal with that. (Yes, it's messed up, I know).

I would describe our relationship as siblings living together their whole life. We're close emotionally and do lots of stuff together. If I was just looking for a roommate, I would have no problem staying in this forever. But obviously that's not the case. But it's not like siblings in that if I move out, I lose 1/2 my extended family. We've known each other a long time and her family is mine and vice versa. I don't really see a way for me to stay in the relationship, but I'm looking to approach this in a way where our relationship apart can be as good as possible given the circumstances.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



wilson said:


> I don't really see a way for me to stay in the relationship, but I'm looking to approach this in a way where our relationship apart can be as good as possible given the circumstances.


Just always check with your heart and ask, am I being as kind as possible in this circumstance? If you remain firm but calm and kind in your decision to divorce, and if you get through all the hard parts and the pain and then the closure, and if you have remained nothing but kind during all of this, you have the best chances at having a good relationship with her when this is over.


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## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



Faithful Wife said:


> "Spouse...this is the most difficult conversation I've ever had. But I have to have it with you.
> 
> I've come to realize that I cannot be happy in a marriage that doesn't fulfill me sexually. I realize this is a very painful revelation and ultimately it means I am asking for a divorce. I truly regret it is coming to this. For years I have tried to live with limited sexual fulfillment. Doing so has finally made it clear to me that I don't want to do it any longer.
> 
> ...


Best of the bunch quoted above. Be honest, heartfelt, and state that sexual intimacy is what bonds you to her, and you need to feel that closeness. By giving her a chance after you let her know how close D is, you allow her to participate in the decision process.

It is a hard place to be, I read on TAM a statement that really spoke to me. It was " You have to be OK with what happens either way". When I had a similar ultimatium conversation with my wife, I felt like a part of my soul died when I had to make myself be "OK".

Luckily she decided to work on issues and I am still married. Had she said "No Way", I would have been at the lawyers office the next business day.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

Well there are no prefect marriages. I'm in a near sexless marriage that is very good otherwise.



john117 said:


> The chance of finding a sexless marriage that is otherwise perfect between healthy adults is about as much as my cat winning at Keeneland KY.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

Its an incredibly difficult thing to do, especially since you have been married for long enough to have grown kids. You are unhappy. She must know you are unhappy but is unable to do what you need to be happy.

Do ask yourself though: do you really need sex. I thought I did. I almost divorced my wife years ago over are lack of sex life. Gradually though I've realized that it is not really sex that I was missing but her love appreciation, respect. Sex was just the way I recognized those things. Once I was completely able to understand that it doesn't mean the same to her, I can tolerate the lack of sex. 

Its humiliating to be rejected by the person you love, but once you realize that is isn't so much rejection as that you are asking for something they simply can not provide, its easier. 

There is porn and your hands to take care of your physical needs. 

I would never tell someone to stay in a short term relationship with a bad sex life, but after a good part of a lifetime, I don't know that it makes sense to leave if other things are good. 

If you are sure you want to leave, then just tell her. "I love you but I just can't be happy without an active passionate sex life. I know you try, but the gap between our desires is just too big."


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



uhtred said:


> Well there are no prefect marriages. I'm in a near sexless marriage that is very good otherwise.


If one of you isn't getting their needs met, how perfect is that?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



wilson said:


> I agree that can be an issue and is part of the underlying incompatibility. I don't know if that's really fixable. I always try to appreciate what she gives me and I am thankful for her effort, but there's only so many times I can do all the work. When it's pretty clear she would be just as happy (maybe even happier) by not doing it, it's hard to maintain enthusiasm.
> 
> *It reminds me of the situation where you have a coworker who never seems to want to go to lunch. But if you keep asking and go to where they want to go, they'll go and have a good time. But then next time the process starts all over again where you have to convince them each time. After a while you realize that they probably would prefer not to go to lunch at all.*


OMG you compared sex with your wife to having lunch with a coworker!

OMG, my wife and I are coworkers in real life! ... She loves eating lunch with me, except when I try to save money with $5 footlongs! ...OK, OK, I am calming down a little now... No more $5 footlongs, apparently that is what has been fuçking up my sex life!

DUDE, you almost gave me a freaking heart attack!

Badsanta


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

You did say "otherwise perfect"



john117 said:


> If one of you isn't getting their needs met, how perfect is that?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



uhtred said:


> You did say "otherwise perfect"


Perfect is in the eye of the beholder - the whole point of a third party look is to provide a more comprehensive picture.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



wilson said:


> ** For this thread, assume you have a nice spouse and that you like your spouse. This isn't the place to bash bad spouses who are terrible by withholding sex as a manipulation tactic. Also assume you are a reasonably nice looking person with a good personality and not a lazy demanding ogre that no one would want to have sex with anyway.***
> 
> Assume that your marriage is good except for the lack of sex. You get along well with your spouse, and otherwise it's a good marriage except for missing that one important thing.


Had to stop here because if sex is a missing ingredient in your marriage then you don't have a good marriage. The fact that you can classify your marriage as good even though you are desperately unhappy about the lack of sex tells me that you have difficulty asserting your needs and desires as valid. And if you have trouble with that, it also suggests that you lack the ability to cope with conflict and you therefore avoid it. People who avoid conflict are generally passive and passive men aren't very sexy. So that might be a reason why you don't get sex very often.






> Also assume that you have been married a long time (decades) and tried many things, but the intimacy just is no where close to what it needs to be. Your spouse just has little to no interest in intimacy and it's not going to realistically change. At some point you have to realize that things just aren't going to get better and you need to have a serious conversation with your spouse that you cannot go on living like this. How would you approach the divorce conversation and what would you say? Also, are there any alternatives to intimacy that you might consider for staying in the marriage?



If my marriage got to this point the divorce option would have already been mentioned several times.

A chronic ongoing issue in a marriage has to come to a resolution. In my own marriage I said to my husband: "This is what I need from you and it won't change. You need to decide if you are willing to meet those needs or not. If you think I need too much from you just admit that I need more than you can give and we can go our separate ways."



> Sometimes I try to think of what could be done to make me stay even without intimacy. Perhaps if my W took much more responsibility for housework and financial security. If I could retire early, I would be less stressed out and the lack of intimacy wouldn't be as big of a deal. But even then I'm not sure if it's enough.


Why the hell would you consider staying in a sexless marriage as an option? If your wife has made it clear that sex will always be a rare event, why the hell are you still there trying to justify wanting to leave? Conflict avoidance. Very unattractive.




> (I'm sure a lot of people may recommend duty sex, but that doesn't really work for me. I feel like I'm forcing her to do something she doesn't want, and I feel bad and don't enjoy it.)


WTF! No one would ever recommend duty sex.




> So basically, how do you tell your spouse, "Although I love you, the lack of intimacy means I can't make it work and we should start planning for the inevitable."


Put on your big boy pants and own your sexual needs.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

...


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



> So basically, how do you tell your spouse, "Although I love you, the lack of intimacy means I can't make it work and we should start planning for the inevitable."


You say, "Although I love you, the lack of intimacy means I can't make it work and we should start planning for the inevitable."

Speak from your heart, and in your own words. You answer your own question. I hope you find resolution and happiness. Good job for enduring it for your kids as long as you did, that was very unselfish of you.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

Assuming you are in your late 40s or early 50s, it's simply a matter of asking yourself if you want to live with a mate or a roommate. If it's the former, then there is no easy way. Say, "I love you but I need intimacy, please sign". If it's the latter, then Boulderdash is a fun party game, so is Taboo.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

I recommend you read "passionate marriage" by schnarch. I'm reading it now - it's long but interesting. If for no other reason, you'll feel better by knowing other couples are even worse off and hate each other 

Seriously, though, I believe you are interested in passion. If you read through the book it might give you ideas about what you can do and what you want. The author doesn't make direct recommendations, but accepts couples as they are and interprets their sexual interplay based on how they act with one another.

Even just kissing... Yesterday I told my W "I going to be kissing you tonight" a few times during the day... And when I did last night, I was present in a different way. It kind of freaked her out - she was saying things like "30 years of kissing one way and now you're doing different things" - we were playful and it was fun but it was a little disconcerting. When she tried to move forward with sex, I gently stopped her and said I only wanted to kiss and that was true. It was really different.

It's about challenging your own ideas, behaviors, and actions that affect your closeness and true level of intimacy. As I said, I'm only half way through, and I have a good LTR with sex, but I still want more passion.


Also the author points out that discomfort in a LTR is good and is part of change.
----

Regarding the talk, I did it and I was basically in tears. But it was because I didn't know what I would do - not because of her. I told her that - I don't want D but I won't live without a healthy sex life, I will live my sexuality, and I don't know what I will do. It was honest, and it shook the tree enough. Later I proposed something every day - just so we wouldn't put it off - and it has blossomed from there.

But I first recommend the book, and if you have the talk, don't threaten, just let her know that might have to be the solution.

Good luck.


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## omgchronicles (Aug 31, 2016)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

To read what many people have written here Sexless marriage: Cheat, divorce or suffer? - OMG Chronicles OMG Chronicles, it's not an easy discussion, and may not ultimately get you what you want.
But rather than divorce or continue to suffer, what about suggesting opening up your marriage?


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



omgchronicles said:


> To read what many people have written here Sexless marriage: Cheat, divorce or suffer? - OMG Chronicles OMG Chronicles, it's not an easy discussion, and may not ultimately get you what you want.
> But rather than divorce or continue to suffer, *what about suggesting opening up your marriage?*


It's an option, of course. However, it is difficult to find a compatible and willing partner who accepts your status; it works best when the core relationship is solid; in this scenario it could easily lead to divorce (which isn't a bad thing, really); it's better than nothing, but probably less than what he wants. Besides, if his wife doesn't agree, he's back to the original options - still, maybe worth a try.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

Strangely, many people who do not want sex in their marriage are nevertheless very offended by the idea that their partners get sex from someone else. Often sex with other people isn't what's desired anyway, but it still seems strange to me. 








Married but Happy said:


> It's an option, of course. However, it is difficult to find a compatible and willing partner who accepts your status; it works best when the core relationship is solid; in this scenario it could easily lead to divorce (which isn't a bad thing, really); it's better than nothing, but probably less than what he wants. Besides, if his wife doesn't agree, he's back to the original options - still, maybe worth a try.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



uhtred said:


> Strangely, many people who do not want sex in their marriage are nevertheless very offended by the idea that their partners get sex from someone else. Often sex with other people isn't what's desired anyway, but it still seems strange to me.


Yeah, makes no sense, really. But, "Mine! Mine mine mine! Hands off!" It's okay if they deny their partner sex, but no one else can fill that niche. That's why divorce is a good option.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

As I said on another thread on a similar topic, tell her that you are going to have a sex life, with her or without her. If she picks "with her", then say, "Okay, that will be Tuesdays and Fridays at 11 PM for 30 minutes" (or whatever would be acceptable to you).

If she balks at that, then filing for divorce is the next step.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

Don't plead either. This isn't not a negotiation. You want sex and you deserve sex. She is your wife and she gets right of first refusal. I can't believe how many people settle on no sex.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



Anon Pink said:


> Had to stop here because if sex is a missing ingredient in your marriage then you don't have a good marriage. The fact that you can classify your marriage as good even though you are desperately unhappy about the lack of sex tells me that you have difficulty asserting your needs and desires as valid.


You and I are similar in that we can't comprehend being happy otherwise because we are too HD to be happy. No sex and I am miserable. A depressing funk overcomes me. The concept of any glimmer of happiness without sex is inconceivable.


What you need to remember is that our experience is not everyone's experience. That is a common human fallacy; people presume others experiences are the same as theirs. If you have a moderate drive that is unfulfilled, you can miss sex, be frustrated by less sex than you desire, but it is not all consuming. 

How do I know wilson is MD? Ask yourself if you could put up with 10 times a year? I wouldn't. How about a year without? Would you let it slide to three? Me neither. No amount of porn and jerking would suffice. No HD person could. So the fact that he can tells me he does not have the same need for sex.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



larry.gray said:


> How do I know wilson is MD? Ask yourself if you could put up with 10 times a year? I wouldn't. How about a year without? Would you let it slide to three? Me neither. No amount of porn and jerking would suffice. No HD person could. So the fact that he can tells me he does not have the same need for sex.


This.

But the thing is...there are couples who have matching libidos of every type who are very happy together.

MD's and MD's, if both are sexually healthy and engage in the average amount of sex a couple in the US have (or whatever their natural level is together), are happy!

LD's and LD's can be very happy, too. My best friend's parents were in their 50's and 60's when she discovered and then told me that they had sex once a month, to "clean out the pipes" as it were. Both of them agreed to this and happily had their monthly romp. Then each returned to their separate bedrooms. My friend did not recall them ever having the same bedroom. They were married until death. Had 5 kids.

HD's and HD's...if the mutual attraction is there and there's nothing else standing in the way of their being sexual together, will tend to get it on like bunnies and never get tired of it.

So it is really not that people are at fault for their natural libido. It is that they married or hitched up with someone who isn't a match to them, so it causes all this strife. Is there a test to take to find out about sexual compatibility for new couples? If not, there should be.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



Faithful Wife said:


> This.
> 
> But the thing is...there are couples who have matching libidos of every type who are very happy together.
> 
> ...


I don't know whether there is such a test, but I'm not sure it would help too much, because most new couples have bonding chemicals that temporarily increase their libidos. So asking people who have just become a couple how their libidos are at present isn't likely to provide much in the way of predicting how their libidos will be in the future.

It might help to ask people what their historic libido was like, but I'm not sure how good people are at remembering things like that...

Note that I agree this is a serious issue and it would be valuable to be able to predict whether it will be a problem, if that were possible.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



tech-novelist said:


> It might help to ask people what their historic libido was like, but I'm not sure how good people are at remembering things like that...
> 
> Note that I agree this is a serious issue and it would be valuable to be able to predict whether it will be a problem, if that were possible.


I remembered that there was such a test, in the form of a questionaire, at Marriage Builders. Went and found it.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forms/phq.pdf

I hope the link works. It should go to a PDF. Or you can read the page about the questionaire first here:

Personal History Questionnaire

There are different sections, but toward the end there is a sexual history. Harley recommends you both fill this out and discuss it together. 

Reading it, I know many people would say they never no way no how ever fill this out and share it.

But I think some people would do so, and it would definitely reveal a lot of things a potential spouse would want to know.

If this could be modified in a way that would encourage more transparency, I could see it as a useful tool. Especially if it could somehow be made clear to new couples that the cost of failing at marriage is divorce...people typically don't understand this until they've been through one or more D's. If only we could get them to understand how devastating divorce is, before they get married.

But maybe they do understand, and that's why people are waiting longer to get married. Maybe they all watched us all get divorced and know better than to pick a mate hastily or without more due diligence.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

Regarding the marriagebulders servey:

It doesn't include the question asking if you've ever had a three-way sexual encounter. Another hotly debated thread is covering that angle.

My wife and I had pre-marital counseling. Many of those questions were covered. Some made me laugh, like "do you have any kids I don't know about?"


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



tech-novelist said:


> I don't know whether there is such a test, but I'm not sure it would help too much, because most new couples have bonding chemicals that temporarily increase their libidos. So asking people who have just become a couple how their libidos are at present isn't likely to provide much in the way of predicting how their libidos will be in the future.
> 
> It might help to ask people what their historic libido was like, but I'm not sure how good people are at remembering things like that...
> 
> Note that I agree this is a serious issue and it would be valuable to be able to predict whether it will be a problem, if that were possible.


History, if it can be remembered accurately, may be a helpful guide. Unless the prior sexual relationship lasted over two years, though, those new relationship hormones can skew the results. They can also be skewed by other things in the relationship, both good and bad.

The only _reasonably_ accurate "test" is to have a sexual relationship for at least two years (and preferably living together for at least a year), and see how well you are matching after that. If there is a mismatch, it will only continue or get worse. You can decide if that's good enough, or move on - that can be difficult if you've fallen in love, but may still be the smartest choice to avoid all the future pain and suffering mismatched libidos creates.


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## JamesTKirk (Sep 8, 2015)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



Faithful Wife said:


> So it is really not that people are at fault for their natural libido. It is that they married or hitched up with someone who isn't a match to them, so it causes all this strife. Is there a test to take to find out about sexual compatibility for new couples? If not, there should be.


Or libidos change. We used to both be MD and perfectly happy for the first 17 years. Wow she's LD and I've moved slightly closer to HD (but still MD.)
We had compatibility including sexual all figured out before we got married. Now I feel lonely half the time. I think we've come a long way toward a compromise but I'm still working at it.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

It's pretty impossible to know how your libido will be in your 40's and 50's when you're getting together in your 20's. So many things change. Not only does that initial passion die off, but age will change your libido as well. It's almost a guarantee that a woman's drive will change after having a baby, and some of those women are here saying they don't know how to get their old drive back.

I think a more important question to ask is: How you would react *when* your drive is mismatched with your partner. It's not really a question of if, but when. What will you do if your drive is permanently much less than your partner's? What will you do if your drive is permanently much higher than your partner's?

To me, the killer with mismatched drives in marriage isn't the fact that drives *will* be mismatched at some time. The killer is that the person with the lower drive doesn't typically display a commitment to fix the problem or address it in another way. The typical LD reaction seems to be "Oh well, I don't want to do that anymore. If you can figure out how to turn me back on, then I'll think about it. Now, lets go on with our lives like nothing changed."

Part of the wedding vows need to be "I will make the sexual satisfaction of my partner a priority regardless of my own desire for sex." I can totally understand how drives may not be the same, but it's unrealistic to expect someone to live without being able to satisfy their sexual needs. Looking back, that's the one thing I wish we had committed to each other, but we were too young to know the problems that lay ahead.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

Wilson,

This is why the book the 5 love languages isn't quite right. The author says they are:
1. Physical affection (he combines non sexual affection and sex - which creates a lot of distortion in clearly understanding a marital dynamic)
2. Acts of service (within I bucket he includes sacrifice - another huge distortion)
3. Quality time - he got this right
4. Gifts - Perhaps this would better be labeled as financial generosity
5. Words of affirmation - I love you - compliments etc. (he got this right)

So instead of the 5 he proposed - I believe there really are 7.

1. Is non sexual affection
2. Sexual touch
3. Sacrifice
4. Acts of service
5. Quality time
6. Gifts/financial generosity
7. Words of affirmation

When everything is really working in a marriage you see each spouse sacrificing - happily putting the other first in various situations. 

In a marriage with a desire imbalance, if the lower drive spouse takes pleasure from being a giver in bed, it makes everything work. 

But if you have an LD partner who doesn't much like putting you first, at best you get pity sex. At worst no sex at all. 






wilson said:


> It's pretty impossible to know how your libido will be in your 40's and 50's when you're getting together in your 20's. So many things change. Not only does that initial passion die off, but age will change your libido as well. It's almost a guarantee that a woman's drive will change after having a baby, and some of those women are here saying they don't know how to get their old drive back.
> 
> I think a more important question to ask is: How you would react *when* your drive is mismatched with your partner. It's not really a question of if, but when. What will you do if your drive is permanently much less than your partner's? What will you do if your drive is permanently much higher than your partner's?
> 
> ...


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

There is a test to determine sexual compatibility over the long haul, I learned it the hard way.

It is quite simply to discuss sex before committing to an investment in a LTR. 

Case in point: my LD ex could not discuss sex, he could not even say the word "masturbate", he refused to discuss if he did MB ever. He would not talk about porn, past experiences, nothing.
My current: we discussed sex at length very early on, I knew by our second date that he had started MB at a very early age and indulged daily for much of his life (except at times he was in a sexually satisfying relationship), we discussed porn, styles, wants/needs very early on.

A person that cannot talk openly about sex is a red flag. Ex and I had great sex at the start but when he reverted back to his natural level there was nothing I could do as he would not discuss any aspect of sex.

A person that can discuss sex openly is more comfortable in their own skin and has a mature attitude to something that is normal and should hold no shame.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

Dear OP;

I have had the conversation many times during the Sex Starved Marriage portion of my life. It usually went wrong quickly because she knew what I was going to say and went into "fight or flight mode." Actually the Gottman's refer to it as "flooding" where emotion shuts down the brains ability to think and the ability to listen.

It only worked when it was done by a Sex Therapist. The ST asked my wife what she thought would be the logical outcome if we never had sex again. My wife tried to dodge answering that for like 10 minutes. Finally my wife admitted that we would probably end up divorcing. Then the ST asked me if I had ever thought of divorce? I said yes, I had researched the laws in our State and I had promised myself that by a certain birthday (roughly 10 months away), I was going to be in a loving sexual relationship with a woman. I told them both that I wanted it to be with my wife and I would work hard to save the marriage, but if that wasn't possible, I would divorce her and find someone else.

The ST jumped in before my wife could say anything and said that was a very reasonable approach and it gave my wife time to figure out what she wanted to do and to change if she so wanted. If my wife didn't want to change, then my wife would know that the choice of marriage or divorce was hers as well as living with the consequences of her decision. 

Months later my wife asked me if I really would have divorced her over something as unimportant as sex. I looked at her and said yes, because its not unimportant to me.

We are now having sex about twice a week, which was what the ST helped negotiate.

As to the comment about "duty sex." Read MW Davis book the Sex Starved Marriage and the Just Do it advice she gives couples, especially the LD partner. Having said that I have come to understand that my wife is LD compared to me. As David Schnarch says every aspect of every marriage has an LD/HD component. In some couples one partner is HD on watching NFL football and the other could care less except during the Super Bowl and then only to watch the commercials. In some it is chocolate ice cream for dessert with the other partner hating anything but vanilla. IN other couples it is sex (either frequency or positions).

The point I am trying to make is that my wife enjoys sex but not as much as I do. She knows it is very important to me and because she loves me, she makes sure she uses her body to pleasure me, even if she is not really in the mood. It took a lot of introspection, talking to her, and reading for me to accept that. I know I would do just about anything to please her and her giving me the gift of her body and enjoying holding me in her arms as she brings me to orgasm really does make her feel happy. I think that the concept of "duty sex" is used far too broadly, especially among HD/LD couples. 

Good luck to you and see a sex therapist with your wife.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

Holland,
Open communication is necessary but not sufficient. 

You WILL have libido imbalances at times over a long marriage. 

The LD partner who LIKES putting you first will work with their responsive desire. Most LD folks have a decent amount of responsive desire. If they have a core of love and feel attraction for their HD spouse, they relax and let nature take its course. If paired with an HD who doesn't rush them, the gap in raw desire is far far more easily navigated. 

The spouse whose mindset is: WHY should I do ANYTHING I don't want to do? Whole different story. 

Obviously I'm not talking about tolerating a selfish HD who does stuff that physically feels bad to you. Just being open to connecting and letting your spouse slowly get you in the mood. 







MrsHolland said:


> There is a test to determine sexual compatibility over the long haul, I learned it the hard way.
> 
> It is quite simply to discuss sex before committing to an investment in a LTR.
> 
> ...


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



Faithful Wife said:


> I remembered that there was such a test, in the form of a questionaire, at Marriage Builders. Went and found it.
> 
> http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forms/phq.pdf
> 
> ...


I recognize that questionnaire! I stumbled across it when I was first trying to reconcile after learning about my ex's affair. We made a deal to fill it out and learn more about each other.

I filled it out promptly, honestly and completely. I opened up things I had never told anyone before, made myself vulnerable. Then I waited. After a couple of weeks, I found my ex's partially filled out questionnaire in the trash can. Reading through it, I noticed that the part that was filled out it was just full of lies or whining.

I sure learned a LOT.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



MEM2020 said:


> Holland,
> Open communication is necessary but not sufficient.
> 
> You WILL have libido imbalances at times over a long marriage.
> ...


I am more talking about people that feel confident enough with their sexuality to talk about it, whatever their level of desire or style of sex is. I would be less concerned about a lower drive person that says "I love you and understand your drive is higher than mine, I'm happy to meet you part way if you meet me part way".

A person that is not confident with their sexuality will use silence to close down the subject, this is not loving and is very hard to work with.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



Young at Heart said:


> I have had the conversation many times during the Sex Starved Marriage portion of my life. It usually went wrong quickly because she knew what I was going to say and went into "fight or flight mode." Actually the Gottman's refer to it as "flooding" where emotion shuts down the brains ability to think and the ability to listen.
> 
> It only worked when it was done by a Sex Therapist.


That may be the best approach for my situation. I think I may lay out everything and suggest we try at ST. Even if it doesn't resolve the situation, it will probably be a productive environment for all of us to come to terms with the situation. If things can't be fixed, it will be easier to understand why the marriage won't last.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



MrsHolland said:


> There is a test to determine sexual compatibility over the long haul, I learned it the hard way.
> 
> It is quite simply to discuss sex before committing to an investment in a LTR.


Assuming, of course, that both sides know the right questions to ask, the proper answers, and can tell when they're BS'd.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



john117 said:


> Assuming, of course, that both sides know the right questions to ask, the proper answers, and can tell when they're BS'd.


IME it has little to do with which questions you ask or are asked. The concept is about finding out if someone can ever talk about sex. If that someone cannot even discuss sex then the red flag is there. 

Just wish i knew this earlier.

Ex and I still talk regularly and have no problem talking about the things we connect on, parenting, investments, alternative energy etc. Communication can tell you a lot about a person, the content is less relevant in some situations than the ability to talk.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

Young,

Like anything worthwhile there's an art to navigating a desire gap. 

I ought to create a separate thread - maybe over the weekend. For now here are MEM's rules of engagement: 

First is a simple fact. Your LD partner does not start out as aroused as you. May not get fully turned on when you connect and as part of that may not orgasm. Fully accepting this is not only kind, it's the basis for the rules. 

0. Your partner needs to know that you WANT their unfiltered feedback. And especially want to know if anything you are doing feels BAD to them or is turning them OFF. This means - when you get feedback - you respond with: thank you for telling me that. And it better be sincere or they will stop providing feedback and be more likely to avoid having sex with you. 

1. Accept, acknowledge (in a low key manner) and embrace the fact that your LD partners sexual response is lower than yours. This is a matter of leading by example. If you want them to graciously accept you feel a higher level of desire, you have to do the same in reverse. 

2. Do NOT rush your LD partner. If you touch them in a sexually explicit manner to fast, that may actually feel BAD to them. 

3. Get them to show/tell you the sequence that gets them going in a way that feels good for THEM. 

4. Affect rules: Ever visit friends with a puppy - puppy starts humping your leg? Feels awkward right? Moaning, panting and other expressions of intense arousal - are fine - AFTER you've gotten your partner turned on. Starting out doing that stuff when your partner is not yet AT ALL turned on - is not a great idea. Low affect is a good way to start. 

5. Desire to please: Do they WANT to be doing this. If they do, that matters more than their arousal level. If they clearly radiate that they DONT want to be doing this - then stop. Painful as it might be - stop. 

6. Level of engagement: If they are not engaged, rather are just 'tolerating' the encounter, stop. 

7. No complaining about their arousal level. Not before, during or after.

8. If however they lack a desire to please and/or are not engaged it's best to say what's true in a non accusatory manner when you stop. For example you might say: 'Clearly you don't want to do this right now.' 

If you get a dishonest/defensive reaction just shrug. Don't argue an obvious truth. But if they apologize and ask to continue - don't reject them. There needs to be some flex on both sides of this gap. 

9. If the experience turns out to be mostly one sided. Your partner didn't orgasm or worse didn't get very turned on at all, don't pretend otherwise. Say: thank you for loving me

It's a simple acknowledgement someone just gave you the biggest gift they could - themselves. 

If they seem - less than happy afterwards - don't say: thank you
Ask them if they are ok? 

I've never had to ask M2 if she is ok. But I have asked her: 'was that ok for you'?

In fact I always ask that if she doesn't rapture. Always. 

That likely isn't quite 100% of the rule set - but it's a good start. 




Young at Heart said:


> Dear OP;
> 
> I have had the conversation many times during the Sex Starved Marriage portion of my life. It usually went wrong quickly because she knew what I was going to say and went into "fight or flight mode." Actually the Gottman's refer to it as "flooding" where emotion shuts down the brains ability to think and the ability to listen.
> 
> ...


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## 2020hindsight (Nov 3, 2015)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



wilson said:


> Part of the wedding vows need to be "I will make the sexual satisfaction of my partner a priority regardless of my own desire for sex." I can totally understand how drives may not be the same, but it's unrealistic to expect someone to live without being able to satisfy their sexual needs. Looking back, that's the one thing I wish we had committed to each other, but we were too young to know the problems that lay ahead.


What's interesting about the vow you propose is that it can be understood either way.

It could be read as:

"I will make the sexual satisfaction of my [HD] partner a priority regardless of my own [low] desire for sex." (Meaning, we will have more sex than I would like.)

Or as:

"I will make the sexual satisfaction of my [LD] partner a priority regardless of my own [high] desire for sex." (Meaning, we will have less sex than I would like.)

I'm just saying.

Either way the vow is understood, one member of the mismatched couple has to sacrifice and go against their authentic self. I guess the mature thing would be to meet somewhere in the middle, with a compromise. IMO neither member of the mismatched couple is inherently entitled to get her/his own way. Neither one is "right"--they are just different, and badly matched.


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## 2020hindsight (Nov 3, 2015)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



MrsHolland said:


> IME it has little to do with which questions you ask or are asked. The concept is about finding out if someone can ever talk about sex. If that someone cannot even discuss sex then the red flag is there.
> 
> Just wish i knew this earlier.
> 
> Ex and I still talk regularly and have no problem talking about the things we connect on, parenting, investments, alternative energy etc. Communication can tell you a lot about a person, the content is less relevant in some situations than the ability to talk.


IME, some people who cannot discuss sex cannot understand what there is to discuss. There are people who have no fantasies, no unexpressed desires, no masturbation practices past or current. To some, sex is a bodily function, an act which is common to all organisms that reproduce sexually. Once the facts of life are grasped, there would seem to be nothing left to discuss. 

But I know many other people have a different attitude.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

@2020hindsight: If the vow to attend to the partner's level of desire is combined with the vow to be monogamous, the 2 interpretations are not quite equivalent. If the LD agrees to push themselves to be available above their own level of need, and the HD partner agrees to refrain from seeking sex outside the marriage when the level of sex within the marriage falls below their level of need, and they meet somewhere above the LD's level but below the HD's level, then both are sacrificing and the outcome is a compromise. If the LD simply provides sex at the level where they feel comfortable, and the HD both receives less than they desire and agrees to forsake all others, then the HD is making all of the sacrifices and the result is capitulation - not compromise.

As always, I would much prefer to see "compromise" be trading weeks where each gets as much or as little sex as they desire rather than asking the LD to go above their level of need every week and asking the HD to remain below their level of need every week. Seems that each person getting what they want half the time has gotta be better than neither of them ever getting what they want. But I must be wrong, because I have never heard of any couple implementing my suggested compromise.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

To me it seems like the LD should hold firm and let the HD go. How are you supposed to "compromise" on desire, anyway?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



MrsHolland said:


> IME it has little to do with which questions you ask or are asked. The concept is about finding out if someone can ever talk about sex. If that someone cannot even discuss sex then the red flag is there.
> 
> Just wish i knew this earlier.
> 
> Ex and I still talk regularly and have no problem talking about the things we connect on, parenting, investments, alternative energy etc. Communication can tell you a lot about a person, the content is less relevant in some situations than the ability to talk.


Talking about sex in generalities, yea, sure. Not too difficult. Insert peg A in hole B, the works. At the lovey dovey unicorny part of the program, it's all theory. 

Obviously if they won't talk about it, that's red flag time, but if they do talk, with fairly low signal to noise ratio, we haven't learned all that much, have we?

I keep thinking about all the great stuff we did back then, and where we ended up 35 years later, and it's hard to accept that anyone could have predicted it. 

Unless, of course, I had the privilege of meeting her family, which I did not.

In other words, You may be getting all the right answers early on, only to find out that these answers were so laden with small print as to make them useless.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



jld said:


> To me it seems like the LD should hold firm and let the HD go. How are you supposed to "compromise" on desire, anyway?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Fake it till you make it?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



john117 said:


> Fake it till you make it?


Faking desire? And even worse, being encouraged to fake it?

Faking anything seems dysfunctional to me. If it is not there, it is not there. 

If the person who wants there to be desire can inspire it, great. Otherwise, it may be best to part ways.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



larry.gray said:


> Regarding the marriagebulders servey:
> 
> It doesn't include the question asking if you've ever had a three-way sexual encounter. Another hotly debated thread is covering that angle.
> 
> My wife and I had pre-marital counseling. Many of those questions were covered. Some made me laugh, like "do you have any kids I don't know about?"


I'll go back and read through it again...but I thought it did ask you to recount any type of sexual encounter you've had and list all partners. The way I read it, it would have to be disclosed if someone was answering honestly.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



jld said:


> Faking desire? And even worse, being encouraged to fake it?
> 
> Faking anything seems dysfunctional to me. If it is not there, it is not there.
> 
> ...


Agree.

It would simply be another form of deception.

In the meantime, resentment would continue to build in the LD. 

No thank you.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



farsidejunky said:


> Agree.
> 
> It would simply be another form of deception.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I don't get that approach, either. It's like telling someone they "should" have a crush on someone. It just doesn't work that way.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

That has to be rule zero - no faking. No pretending. 

You need to have trust - for that to work. 






jld said:


> Faking desire? And even worse, being encouraged to fake it?
> 
> Faking anything seems dysfunctional to me. If it is not there, it is not there.
> 
> ...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

Clearly not an art or design student 

Like many things in life you need to pretend a bit at first. If you're expecting unicorny levels of desire from day one...

My father hated opera, and my mom loved it. Guess who faked opera desire 

Heck, JLD, you lived in India for a while. How does it work there, arranged marriages and all?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



MEM2020 said:


> That has to be rule zero - no faking. No pretending.
> 
> *You need to have trust - for that to work.*


Could you elaborate on the bolded, please, MEM?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



john117 said:


> Clearly not an art or design student
> 
> Like many things in life you need to pretend a bit at first. If you're expecting unicorny levels of desire from day one...
> 
> ...


You know, I remember seeing a TV commercial once while I was there, very touching. It showed the wedding, I think, and then a scene a year or so later, I believe, when the two were accidentally parted on a subway. I think one had gotten on or gotten off early, on accident. They were all of a sudden scared to lose the other. 

When they were reunited, they embraced. And I think that is when they realized they had attached to each other, that they loved each other.

Lol, I don't remember what that was supposed to advertise. I do clearly remember the emotion it evoked, though.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



jld said:


> Faking desire? And even worse, being encouraged to fake it?


Face it TILL YOU CAN MAKE IT. The crucial part is the latter. And it worked well for me. After the birth of our first, mommy mode kicked in hard, particularly since I felt so clueless. Yes I made noises that I did not feel. And with his patience, and my willingness, it grew to the make it part!


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



NobodySpecial said:


> Face it TILL YOU CAN MAKE IT. The crucial part is the latter. And it worked well for me. After the birth of our first, mommy mode kicked in hard, particularly since I felt so clueless. Yes I made noises that I did not feel. And with his patience, and my willingness, it grew to the make it part!


If you want to save the marriage, and your partner cannot inspire you, then yes, I agree it is on you to make it work.

But not everyone is interested in saving the marriage under those conditions.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



jld said:


> If you want to save the marriage, and your partner cannot inspire you, then yes, I agree it is on you to make it work.
> 
> But not everyone is interested in saving the marriage under those conditions.


You live in a magic dream world. You use the word inspire like it is some kind of panacea for your being a jerk. I am not calling you a jerk, btw. But the idea that a marriage is going to work by having a dippy wife who gets magically inspired by his total awesomeness is not something I would put in any marriage help book. 

My husband inspires many things in me. And, sometimes that is not raw desire, despite the fact that I am pretty naturally HD (to the degree that I think desire has a damned thing to do with sex in marriage, which is not a lot). He inspires genuine love. He inspires an appreciation of being joyful. He also sometimes inspires frustration. Even anger.

Desire is not a static state. Not in marriage. Some dude who looks hot? I suppose, maybe. When things are early, things are easy. But after 22 years, kids, kitchens, arguments about dishes, some financial missteps... Desire is something you have to work on. And I don't think it is unfair to ask the person who is less interested in the desire to do a little dance of fake it until you can make it. Or for him and her to find it within themselves to do it, which is better than having to ask.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



NobodySpecial said:


> You live in a magic dream world. You use the word inspire like it is some kind of panacea for your being a jerk. I am not calling you a jerk, btw. But the idea that a marriage is going to work by having a dippy wife who gets magically inspired by his total awesomeness is not something I would put in any marriage help book.
> 
> My husband inspires many things in me. And, sometimes that is not raw desire, despite the fact that I am pretty naturally HD (to the degree that I think desire has a damned thing to do with sex in marriage, which is not a lot). He inspires genuine love. He inspires an appreciation of being joyful. He also sometimes inspires frustration. Even anger.
> 
> Desire is not a static state. Not in marriage. Some dude who looks hot? I suppose, maybe. When things are early, things are easy. But after 22 years, kids, kitchens, arguments about dishes, some financial missteps... Desire is something you have to work on. And I don't think it is unfair to ask the person who is less interested in the desire to do a little dance of fake it until you can make it. Or for him and her to find it within themselves to do it, which is better than having to ask.


Magical dream world? Dippy wife?

I have been with Dug 23+ years, with plenty of life challenges under our belts. Whether I am enthusiastic or not at any particular time has never been an issue for him. I am not expected to fake anything, ever.

And that is good, because I don't think I could, anyway. If I were not inspired by Dug, we would not even be together. His love and commitment to me are the foundation of our marriage.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



jld said:


> Magical dream world? Dippy wife?


Yah actually. I think it is great that you and Duq have a great relationship. But your advice is hollow. Inspire your weakling wife! Temper her rages! Why would anyone, besides you and Duq, want to live like that? How would you explain to someone how to "inspire" them?


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



NobodySpecial said:


> Yah actually. I think it is great that you and Duq have a great relationship. But your advice is hollow. Inspire your weakling wife! Temper her rages! Why would anyone, besides you and Duq, want to live like that? How would you explain to someone how to "inspire" them?


I don't think it is hollow. And I have had people thank me for my advice, so I guess they did not find it hollow, either.

I think the first thing the person who wants to make things better needs to look at the emotional connection. They need to make it safe for the other person to tell them exactly what they think and how they feel in the relationship. Without that kind of honesty, it can be hard to make progress.

This means the "leader" needs to be able to hear things that he or she may not want to hear. Things that may hurt their feelings. They need to ask themselves if those things are true, and consider how they can change them, if they are willing and able.

And they need to give it some time, to see if the partner is responding. They may need to fine tune some things. 

And sometimes things just do not work out. Not all matches may be lifetime matches.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



jld said:


> I don't think it is hollow. And I have had people thank me for my advice, so I guess they did not find it hollow, either.
> 
> I think the first thing the person who wants to make things better needs to look at the emotional connection. They need to make it safe for the other person to tell them exactly what they think and how they feel in the relationship. Without that kind of honesty, it can be hard to make progress.


Yes. I agree completely with this.



> This means the "leader" needs to be able to hear things that he or she may not want to hear.


Still waiting for the leader thread! Leadership does no enter our relationship at all.



> Things that may hurt their feelings. They need to ask themselves if those things are true, and consider how they can change them, if they are willing and able.
> 
> And they need to give it some time, to see if the partner is responding. They may need to fine tune some things.
> 
> And sometimes things just do not work out. Not all matches may be lifetime matches.


You are usually much less eloquent.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

Over time you learn to know whether your partner will love you more, or love you a lot less for telling them the painful truth. 

It's not real intimacy if your partner can only tell you the complimentary stuff. 







jld said:


> Could you elaborate on the bolded, please, MEM?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



MEM2020 said:


> Over time you learn to know whether your partner will love you more, or *love you a lot less for telling them the painful truth*.


Okay, I like this, but I do not understand the bolded. It just seems immature to me. If the person who loves us most in the whole world, our spouse, cannot tell us painful truths, how will we ever understand ourselves better?

And really, these sorts of conversations may start out with one person sharing their perspective, but having that perspective better informed by hearing the spouse's pov. Things are not always as simple as they may seem on the surface.



> It's not real intimacy if your partner can only tell you the complimentary stuff.


Totally agree. I really feel sorry for anyone in this position. 

Though, honestly, I don't understand why they accept to stay in it. They must be okay without real intimacy.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

Somebody,
I chuckled earlier when reading a post from JLD about LDs and how they should just leave if the alternative is having to compromise - on desire.

The sort of funny thing is - that - I'd guess M2 is inspired by my acceptance of what is. 

Despite our intense connection and synchronization - if M2 had to pretend it was on average as good for her as it is for me - game over. 

Maybe it helps I don't stare at her desperately hoping to see lust. Instead I look over - see my best friend - and whatever is there is there. 








NobodySpecial said:


> Yah actually. I think it is great that you and Duq have a great relationship. But your advice is hollow. Inspire your weakling wife! Temper her rages! Why would anyone, besides you and Duq, want to live like that? How would you explain to someone how to "inspire" them?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

JLD,
I have been on numerous threads - where the OP is a LD spouse and the men of TAM tell her: That if their wives said: I don't desire you - it would be instant game over. They would divorce their wife over that. 

But - and here is the most bizarre thing - from the way the wife posts - it is already obvious to her H that she has lost her desire for him. 

And yet - giving voice to an obvious truth - is grounds for some - to divorce. 








jld said:


> Okay, I like this, but I do not understand the bolded. It just seems immature to me. If the person who loves us most in the whole world, our spouse, cannot tell us painful truths, how will we ever understand ourselves better?
> 
> And really, these sorts of conversations may start out with one person sharing their perspective, but having that perspective better informed by hearing the spouse's pov. Things are not always as simple as they may seem on the surface.
> 
> ...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



MEM2020 said:


> Somebody,
> I chuckled earlier when reading a post from JLD about LDs and how they should just leave if the alternative is having to compromise - on desire.


Why did it make you laugh?

Could you force yourself to feel desire for someone you did not truly desire? Wouldn't that just turn your stomach, or at least make you turn your head away, even if you felt forced to accept their advances?



> The sort of funny thing is - that - I'd guess M2 is inspired by my acceptance of what is.
> 
> Despite our intense connection and synchronization - if M2 had to pretend it was on average as good for her as it is for me - game over.
> 
> *Maybe it helps I don't stare at her desperately hoping to see lust. * Instead I look over - see my best friend - and whatever is there is there.


MEM, is the bolded what is going on with guys in this position? That is how they are looking at their wives?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



MEM2020 said:


> JLD,
> I have been on numerous threads - where the OP is a LD spouse and the men of TAM tell her: That if their wives said: I don't desire you - it would be instant game over. They would divorce their wife over that.
> 
> But - and here is the most bizarre thing - from the way the wife posts - it is already obvious to her H that she has lost her desire for him.
> ...


But hearing it is too much for them? 

Wow.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

I laughed because - of how easily I can argue both sides of this argument. 

Three times in a row - over a couple week period - M2 initiated and I was not neutral - I was BELOW neutral. I didn't want to connect. No idea why. Doesn't matter. 

Three times I took a shower, thought back to some great past sexcapades and over 15-20 minutes got turned on. Dried off, got in bed and had fun with M2. 

Would that be difficult I feel to was like that every time? Yes. But I wouldn't leave her over it. No way. 







jld said:


> Why did it make you laugh?
> 
> Could you force yourself to feel desire for someone you did not truly desire? Wouldn't that just turn your stomach, or at least make you turn your head away, even if you felt forced to accept their advances?
> 
> ...


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

If it is going to end up wonderful if you can just bring yourself to tell the truth, then truth is great.
If I am willing to split if the truth makes things untenable, then truth is great.
If I am going to stay whether the truth is helpful or ugly, then please just lie to me.
I have told my wife many times, if you cheat please do not confess. I do not wish to know. The price of cheating is not that you will confess and we will split, but that we will stay together and you have to take your secret to the grave.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



MEM2020 said:


> The spouse whose mindset is: WHY should I do ANYTHING I don't want to do? Whole different story.


That attitude by itself makes for a bad spouse, whether there's sex or not.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



jld said:


> Why did it make you laugh?
> 
> Could you force yourself to feel desire for someone you did not truly desire? Wouldn't that just turn your stomach, or at least make you turn your head away, even if you felt forced to accept their advances?


I could act in loving ways toward someone I loved until desire could return. I don't think anyone said anything about force.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



NobodySpecial said:


> I could act in loving ways toward someone I loved until desire could return. I don't think anyone said anything about force.


If the LD were told if he or she did not start not only accepting advances, but initiating some, the HD would file, the LD might feel forced. That is, if they did not feel free to leave the relationship on their own.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



Holdingontoit said:


> As always, I would much prefer to see "compromise" be trading weeks where each gets as much or as little sex as they desire rather than asking the LD to go above their level of need every week and asking the HD to remain below their level of need every week. Seems that each person getting what they want half the time has gotta be better than neither of them ever getting what they want. But I must be wrong, because I have never heard of any couple implementing my suggested compromise.


That sounds like a terrible idea to me.

What if the HD person wants sex daily, while the LD person wants it monthly?

So, during HD week, they go at it seven times. The HD person is generally happy but already feeling like they are stocking up for 'dry' week which is coming fast. The LD person is miserable.

Then, during LD week, they have sex zero times, because they're already way over the LD rate. The HD person is miserable, and visibly agitating for HD week to come around again. LD person is also miserable, spending the time dreading HD week instead of enjoying LD week.

I don't see ANY emotional connection being sustained by this practice.

But really, there's no good way to compromise the HD-LD divide that I've ever found.

Say the HD person is willing to drop to every other day (half as much sex as they desire), but anything less than that is too much compromise. Say the LD person is willing to go as often as once a week (quadruple the sex they really desire), but that's as far as they are willing to compromise. They still have not met anywhere near the middle, and are just building resentment instead of emotional connection.

It's a terrible dilemma. You're suppose to be able to figure out sexual compatibility during courtship (unless you're a save yourself for marriage type, in which case, I wish you much luck!) but during courtship, hormones are raging and people are on their best (ie deceptive/manipulative) behaviour. Then, compatibility is assumed, after marriage, true selves are revealed, or circumstances may change someone's desire level.

My view is that once you've made those vows, you have to accept whatever happens to your sex life. If that's having less sex than you desire because you're the HD person, suck it up, buttercup. The alternative is raping your LD spouse. Even if they reluctantly agree because they love you (duty sex), that's just coercion, not enthusiastic consent.

I know that's harsh, but I also believe that the spouses, out of love, owe each other honest conversation about their desires, and working together to rectify the incompatibility problem. In my experience, the LD person often find sex unpleasant (painful, unfulfilling, causes anxiety, whatever), so the onus is on the HD person to improve things. This can only happen if the LD person is willing to express themselves. If one spouse or both isn't make loving efforts to improve, then they need to discuss alternatives. And both partners need to actually understand themselves, and what makes them HD or LD, first.

I also think that to the HD spouse, improvement almost always simply means more often and nothing more, so the LD person is the one who should take action. For the LD person, improvement means having their responsive desire understood, or an amelioration in their partner's skill level, and so action from the HD person is required. As long as each partner thinks action should come from the other person, things will stay stagnant.


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## 2020hindsight (Nov 3, 2015)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



jld said:


> Could you force yourself to feel desire for someone you did not truly desire?


No, one cannot force oneself to feel desire. That is not possible. But it's certainly possible to have sex motivated by a wish to give one's partner pleasure and make him/her feel loved, even in the absence of sexual desire.



> Wouldn't that just turn your stomach, or at least make you turn your head away, even if you felt forced to accept their advances?


No, it doesn't turn one's stomach to have sex with one's loved one, even without desire. Without love, it might be distasteful, but where there is love there is the desire to please one's beloved.



> MEM, is the bolded what is going on with guys in this position? That is how they are looking at their wives?


If a woman is being scrutinized and judged by her partner for not feeling/exhibiting desire/lust during sex, it certainly makes things uncomfortable (being stared at or questioned repeatedly during the act). Some men do this, but I don't think the "science-project" or "third-degree" style of sexual scrutiny will ever work out well.

Nobody likes to feel like a specimen under a microscope, or judged and found wanting, especially over something as personal as sexual performance.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



jld said:


> If the LD were told if he or she did not start not only accepting advances, but initiating some, the HD would file, the LD might feel forced. That is, if they did not feel free to leave the relationship on their own.


That's a load of crap. "Did not feel free to leave on their own?" Where do you come up with this stuff?


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



MEM2020 said:


> Young,
> 
> Like anything worthwhile there's an art to navigating a desire gap.
> 
> ...


I agree with some of what you are saying, but for some spouses nothing you do, no amount of anything, will cause them to have more "desire" for sex beyond a certain point. Learning to live with your spouse's LD and accepting it as who they really are (and that you can't change it) is critical.

While your suggested arousal steps are nice, sometimes the LD partner just doesn't want to have sex, but knows that you need it. Your comments recognize this and that you need to learn to accept (what I call) the gift of their body, when it is from the heart and sincere on their part.

My wife enjoys sex much of the time, and she knows that when she is aroused she will enjoy sex. But she has told me after initiating sex (yes she does initiate) and lots of slowly building touching, kissing, talking, not to touch her down there as it will make her want to have sex with her and she doesn't want to have sex anymore. I understand steps 2, 3, 4 and even 5, 6, 7 and 8. At that point she often feels terribly conflicted for initiating and not following through. We have even had discussions about she we stop, go to sleep and maybe see if we want to continue in the morning. The point is that LD, really is LD. 

My wife and I have worked out our LD/HD issues with the help of a nationally knows Sex Therapist, lots of compromise and soul searching with discussion.

Our marriage was saved and we now have sex twice a week, which is more than she would prefer, less than I prefer, but works at keeping us emotionally bonded to each other in a loving marriage. It is positive between us and something we both know is important.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



2020hindsight said:


> No, one cannot force oneself to feel desire. That is not possible. But it's certainly possible to have sex motivated by a wish to give one's partner pleasure and make him/her feel loved, even in the absence of sexual desire.
> 
> But that, to me, is a type of desire. The desire to please is certainly desire!
> 
> ...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



NobodySpecial said:


> That's a load of crap. "Did not feel free to leave on their own?" Where do you come up with this stuff?


Any SAHP might feel that exact way, that they cannot financially afford to leave the relationship.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



jld said:


> Any SAHP might feel that exact way, that they cannot financially afford to leave the relationship.


Courts notwithstanding


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

The 2 cases where people are trapped are as follows:

1. You are a SAH. Your partner is self-employed in a business where much of the income can be collected in cash or otherwise "off the books". You file joint federal income tax returns, signed under penalties of perjury. You suspect your self-employed spouse may be under-reporting their receipts and net income, but you are willing to sign the returns because the less tax you pay as a couple, the more money there is to fund your lifestyle. You are married, and you see yourselves as an economic unit. You do not want to pick a fight with your spouse. And you don't really want to know for sure that you are complicit in cheating on your taxes. So you allow yourself to remain ignorant of what is really going on with the business.

Then your spouse cheats on you, and you go see a lawyer about filing for divorce. The lawyer tells you that, since your spouse is self-employed and reports very little income, you are not going to get much alimony. And since your spouse reports that the business is not very profitable, you are not going to receive a large property settlement. You can't safely argue in divorce court that your spouse's income is much higher than reported on the tax returns, because then you are guilty of tax fraud because you signed the joint returns. And even if you get an award of substantial alimony, since your spouse is self-employed and does not receive regular wages from an employer, much harder to garnish their income to satisfy your alimony award.

Being a long time SAH spouse of a self-employed owner of a cash business is a bad place to be when considering divorce and I can imagine that some of them feel "trapped" financially and forced to stay married.

2. You work for a high salary as a licensed professional, and have a large retirement account balance. Your spouse is SAH and you have been married for more than 20 years.

Your spouse cheats on you, and you go see a lawyer about filing for divorce. The lawyer tells you that, since you have been married for a long time to a SAH, you will owe large alimony to your ex for life. Your ex will also be granted half of your retirement plan balance. Previously, you thought that with your existing retirement savings and additional savings from your healthy income, you might be able to retire at age 55 or 60 at the lastest. Now, with half your income and retirement savings gone, you will have to work longer. Moreover, even if you decide to stop working when you planned and live more frugally, there is no guarantee that the judge will reduce your alimony on account of voluntarily ceasing to work. If you are physically capable of working, the judge may require you to continue making payments at the same high amount until you reach age 65 (or whatever the judge considers to be "normal retirement age"). That is, you might wish to retire and live more frugally, but you are not entitled to demand that your ex-spouse also live more frugally.

Being a primary breadwinner who works for a high salary that is easily garnishable while married for decades to a SAH is a bad place to be when considering divorce and I can imagine that some of them feel "trapped" financially and forced to stay married.

That said, these fact patterns are becoming less and less common. These days, most often both spouses work, often more than 1 job each, and incomes are more equalized between spouses. So there is less long term alimony and divorce is mostly "seeya" with no ongoing economic ties to the ex and each being able to support themselves after divorce.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

That's why we need a glossary.

We've been arguing about the meaning of the word "desire".

Everyone loads in their personal bias into how they interpret it.

90% of most disagreements are would disappear once terms are clearly defined.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

Somebody,

Questions may be framed without rocks being thrown. Ease up a bit my friend. 

I am reading a thread right now - where the husband is financially dependent on the wife. 






NobodySpecial said:


> That's a load of crap. "Did not feel free to leave on their own?" Where do you come up with this stuff?


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



Hopeful Cynic said:


> That sounds like a terrible idea to me.


The overwhelming majority of people agree with you, as to my knowledge it has never been tried.



> So, during HD week, they go at it seven times. The HD person is generally happy but already feeling like they are stocking up for 'dry' week which is coming fast. The LD person is miserable.
> 
> Then, during LD week, they have sex zero times, because they're already way over the LD rate. The HD person is miserable, and visibly agitating for HD week to come around again. LD person is also miserable, spending the time dreading HD week instead of enjoying LD week.


As opposed to the typical compromise of once a week, in which they are also both miserable all the time because neither ever gets what they want and both are always asked to remain outside their comfort zone.

Perhaps I am misreading the issue here. Perhaps fewer HDs than I imagine would gladly accept my suggestion. I have always thought it is the LDs who would resist what I suggest. I figure most HDs would jump at the chance to have sex 10 or 12 or 14 times a month instead of 4 or 5, even if that meant 2 weeks with no sex at all. I figured most LDs were completely unwilling to allow the HD to have sex "on demand" for any length of time. Then again, there are those saintly LDs who provide sex "on demand" even though they do not feel much desire themselves. They might jump at the chance to be given every other week off.



> But really, there's no good way to compromise the HD-LD divide that I've ever found.


Agreed, if they stay HD and LD. If the HD cannot inspire the LD to greater desire (as jld often suggests), and the LD cannot find it within themselves to derive pleasure from the HD's satisfaction, and the HD does not find their desire abates in the face of the LD's lack of desire, then I agree the couple is unlikely to be happy together.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

JLD,

I read this study - that most people find humiliation to be the worst outcome. 

But - the key factor here is how one defines this result. 

I believe you and I would say there is the objective truth based on actual behavior patterns. And then there is someone else's verbal depiction of reality. 

When the words confirm the behavior - there is nothing to react emotionally too as this is merely a confirmation of something we already know. 

But it turns out that many folks prize 'saving face' above all else. For them, if you refrain from saying it - they retain plausible deniability. 







jld said:


> But hearing it is too much for them?
> 
> Wow.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



MEM2020 said:


> JLD,
> 
> I read this study - that most people find humiliation to be the worst outcome.
> 
> ...


Is that the study from the UN that you posted about once? You said that for men the biggest worry in a relationship was being embarrassed. But for women you said it was being killed.

That post you made has always stayed in my mind because the differences in the possible outcomes of the fears were so dramatic.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



john117 said:


> Talking about sex in generalities, yea, sure. Not too difficult. Insert peg A in hole B, the works. At the lovey dovey unicorny part of the program, it's all theory.
> 
> Obviously if they won't talk about it, that's red flag time, but if they do talk, with fairly low signal to noise ratio, we haven't learned all that much, have we?
> 
> ...


No John, I got NO answers, there was NO discussion, he would not talk about it and as were actually doing it and were having a good time I let it go. 

Back to what I originally said:
if someone cannot talk about sex you have a massive red flag in front of you.

Husband 1: in 20 years we rarely spoke about sex, fantasies etc.
Husband 2: withing 2 dates I knew a huge amount about his sexual past, drive level etc.

Agree with you on the FOO stuff. It was not till years into the marriage that we went to live OS for 6 yrs to be near his family that I could see we were replicating his parents marriage. Our marriage ended 2 months after returning back to my home town.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



MEM2020 said:


> *Over time you learn to know whether your partner will love you more, or love you a lot less for telling them the painful truth. *
> 
> It's not real intimacy if your partner can only tell you the complimentary stuff.


Bam, think I just got a smack upside the head.

Can't quite articulate it. Life is full of "interesting" moments here and I have noticed a particular look on his face when I tell him what would be a painful truth. He sits there with his arms folded and an indescribable expression, like his brain is ticking over and absorbing but he does not want to show any expression on his face until he has processed what was just said.

And without a doubt he always loves me more afterwards. I think he is a very special man.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



MEM2020 said:


> Somebody,
> 
> Questions may be framed without rocks being thrown. Ease up a bit my friend.
> 
> I am reading a thread right now - where the husband is financially dependent on the wife.


Fair. But the idea that there is nothing one can do, over time, but give up sex for money is a notion that I do not agree with. And that someone's legitimate desire to increase sexual nature of their marriage amounts to force.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



john117 said:


> Courts notwithstanding


Didn't Ele post recently that the average child support payment is something like $300/month? And many parents do not pay?

I don't think it is as easy for SAHPs to leave as some may think. And that is regrettable.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

For men their greatest fear was being laughed at.

For women it was being killed - typically by their intimate partner. 

I will try and find the study. 






jld said:


> Is that the study from the UN that you posted about once? You said that for men the biggest worry in a relationship was being embarrassed. But for women you said it was being killed.
> 
> That post you made has always stayed in my mind because the differences in the possible outcomes of the fears were so dramatic.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

JLD,

I hope I got the bolded parts right - that said your comments in bold - to 2020 hindsight - are on the money. Reason I do a deep read when M2 initiates - is to see what's what. Is this purely about me? If so, I defer. About us, or about what M2 wants - I'm all in. 



No, one cannot force oneself to feel desire. That is not possible. But it's certainly possible to have sex motivated by a wish to give one's partner pleasure and make him/her feel loved, even in the absence of sexual desire.

*But that, to me, is a type of desire. The desire to please is certainly desire!*

No, it doesn't turn one's stomach to have sex with one's loved one, even without desire. Without love, it might be distasteful, but where there is love there is the desire to please one's beloved.

*Again, that is the desire to please. And that is certainly very likely to be there where there is love in the relationship.

I am talking about no love, an oppressive, selfish HD who cannot stop talking about how infrequently sex happens, or how the LD is not initiating. That is where the stomach/head turning comes in. *

If a woman is being scrutinized and judged by her partner for not feeling/exhibiting desire/lust during sex, it certainly makes things uncomfortable (being stared at or questioned repeatedly during the act). Some men do this, but I don't think the "science-project" or "third-degree" style of sexual scrutiny will ever work out well.

Nobody likes to feel like a specimen under a microscope, or judged and found wanting, especially over something as personal as sexual performance.

*I am sure that is true.
*


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

Another factor in not leaving is how it looks to friends and family. Generally no one outside the marriage knows about your sex life. If you seem happy together, they just assume your sex life is good as well. Then you suddenly divorce your spouse of many years. There will be endless questions. Think if the reaction here to man people who say that their spouses won't have sex: they are given all sorts of "helpful" advice on how to be better, improve themselves etc. There is a natural assumption that something must be *wrong* with them.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



uhtred said:


> Another factor in not leaving is how it looks to friends and family. Generally no one outside the marriage knows about your sex life. If you seem happy together, they just assume your sex life is good as well. Then you suddenly divorce your spouse of many years. There will be endless questions. Think if the reaction here to man people who say that their spouses won't have sex: they are given all sorts of "helpful" advice on how to be better, improve themselves etc. There is a natural assumption that something must be *wrong* with them.


I was going to post something similar yesterday but could not word it well. 

My marriage ended due to sexual mismatch but the reality is that it was more bc he showed he did not love me enough to do what was required to change things.

All but a very few people IRL know about the sexless issues, the rest of the world (except for the dodgy lot at TAM) were told "our marriage came to its natural end, no cheating, abuse, gambling, we were no longer in love and connected."

No more, no less. I did not want to embarrass my ex and I did not want to be accused of being heartless (especially as the female in this situation). In the end it is no one else"s business.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



MrsHolland said:


> I was going to post something similar yesterday but could not word it well.
> 
> My marriage ended due to sexual mismatch but the reality is that it was more bc he showed he did not love me enough to do what was required to change things.


I think you made a thread once describing why you think he may have been LD. From what you said, it seemed like your decision to divorce was a very wise one, and freeing for both of you.



> All but a very few people IRL know about the sexless issues, the rest of the world (except for the dodgy lot at TAM) were told "our marriage came to its natural end, no cheating, abuse, gambling, we were no longer in love and connected."
> 
> No more, no less. I did not want to embarrass my ex and I did not want to be accused of being heartless (especially as the female in this situation). *In the end it is no one else"s business*.


Totally agree with the bolded. When Dug's brother divorced, nobody asked why and he offered no explanations. It really and truly was not anyone else's business.

And really, everyone is going to think what they want, anyway.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



uhtred said:


> Another factor in not leaving is how it looks to friends and family. Generally no one outside the marriage knows about your sex life. If you seem happy together, they just assume your sex life is good as well. Then you suddenly divorce your spouse of many years. There will be endless questions. Think if the reaction here to man people who say that their spouses won't have sex: they are given all sorts of "helpful" advice on how to be better, improve themselves etc. There is a natural assumption that something must be *wrong* with them.


Again, you are not obligated to answer anyone's questions. They will learn soon enough not to ask you.

People are asked questions and offered solutions here because that is kind of what the forum is for. They are still not obligated to answer any of them, nor to implement any suggested solutions. They are fully in charge of their own lives, not accountable to TAM for how they ultimately decide to approach their marital difficulties. It is a forum, not a court of law.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

Holland,

Yes - he loves you more. Especially when the truth is spoken as it should be - without any agenda other than illumination.





MrsHolland said:


> Bam, think I just got a smack upside the head.
> 
> Can't quite articulate it. Life is full of "interesting" moments here and I have noticed a particular look on his face when I tell him what would be a painful truth. He sits there with his arms folded and an indescribable expression, like his brain is ticking over and absorbing but he does not want to show any expression on his face until he has processed what was just said.
> 
> And without a doubt he always loves me more afterwards. I think he is a very special man.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

Buddy,

Here goes. Draft one.

Desire(e+) - Emotional desire to please and be pleasing to your partner. One of the strongest strands of the rope of love.
Desire(e-) - Emotional desire to avoid displeasing your partner. Might come from the wish to take care of them, meet their needs. Might come from fear of losing them. 
Desire(s) - Sexual desire or attraction for your partner.
Desire(r) - Is responsive desire for your partner.
Drive - This is you raw drive - this is solely about you independent of your partner.

Typically someone with a low Drive but a high level of Desire(s), attraction for their partner will have strong responsive desire - Desire(r).









Buddy400 said:


> That's why we need a glossary.
> 
> We've been arguing about the meaning of the word "desire".
> 
> ...


----------



## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

certainly BEFORE you divorce her, you need to sit the spouse down and talk to them about HOW IMPORTANT sex is to you. If still no change, ask for a hall pass to get it somewhere else. Only after a big NO! would you then want to bring up divorce.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

What is a good way to get the LD spouse to understand how no sex makes you feel? Often, it seems the LD spouse really doesn't care too much about sex and it's not important to them in a significant way. They might think of it as just one activity out of many. Sort of the same way you might like going to the movies, watching football, hanging out at the beach, etc. If you don't get to do one of those things, like miss a movie, no big deal. Just do one of the other things you enjoy. So often it seems the LD spouse doesn't truly understand that sex is not just a 'fun activity' that can be easily be replaced with some other activity. No sex will cause bad feelings and cannot be easily replaced by some other activity.

So is there some way to tell the LD spouse that no sex makes you feel like XYZ, where XYZ is something they can relate to? Maybe like, no sex makes me feel like when my boss dismisses my hard work that I was really proud of, and I feel like that worse and worse the longer we go without sex. What are some other good analogies that the LD spouse can relate to?


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

Wilson,

What does she NEED from you?

Easiest way to break it down is the mechanics of life and the emotions.

The mechanics are easy. Financial support hours spent co located, maybe even talking. 

The emotions:
- Engagement level when conversing
- Laughter
- Emotional support 
- Generosity

There is a complex function relates all this into a single result. Call it love or prioritization. Label doesn't matter. 

Conversation goes like this: I think you'd feel bad if I deprioiritized you. That's how I feel. 

Most guys suck at this. They confuse anger, or worse hostility with deprioritization. Totally different animals. 

Anger begets anger. Deprioritization produces intense anxiety. Anger generates aggression. Anxiety creates a remarkably intense focus on resolution. 

Giving her the silent treatment - is hostile. Going to the gym for a few hours - when sh expects date night - is de prioritization. 

Your side of these conversations must be low affect and very concise. 




wilson said:


> What is a good way to get the LD spouse to understand how no sex makes you feel? Often, it seems the LD spouse really doesn't care too much about sex and it's not important to them in a significant way. They might think of it as just one activity out of many. Sort of the same way you might like going to the movies, watching football, hanging out at the beach, etc. If you don't get to do one of those things, like miss a movie, no big deal. Just do one of the other things you enjoy. So often it seems the LD spouse doesn't truly understand that sex is not just a 'fun activity' that can be easily be replaced with some other activity. No sex will cause bad feelings and cannot be easily replaced by some other activity.
> 
> So is there some way to tell the LD spouse that no sex makes you feel like XYZ, where XYZ is something they can relate to? Maybe like, no sex makes me feel like when my boss dismisses my hard work that I was really proud of, and I feel like that worse and worse the longer we go without sex. What are some other good analogies that the LD spouse can relate to?


----------



## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



MEM2020 said:


> Wilson,
> 
> 
> There is a complex function relates all this into a single result. Call it love or prioritization. Label doesn't matter.
> ...


I think most *PEOPLE* of both sexes don't see the distinction. For most people, the difference between the silent treatment and making yourself unavailable when you are expected to be around is FAR too subtle to be grasped. Both are perceived as "You were deliberately ignoring me".


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

Wilson,

Sawney Beane is my - alter ego - my mirrored twin. He sees everything I do not. 

This means further clarification is required. You cannot plan a date night and then pull a no show. That's hostile. 

What you can do - is - if you have a periodic date night - well in advance of it - you can say: I'm starting a new workout regime. For a while it will take precedence over other stuff including date nights. 

-------
Sawney is right about the fact that she is likely to react badly to this. 

The thing is - there is ZERO chance that you can make progress in the areas that matter to you - without upsetting her. 

So in deference to my alter ego I will tell you this. 

If the combined mechanics and emotional dynamic of sex are decent to good for her, this ought to turn out well. 

If however the raw physicality of it and your emotional dynamic are uncomfortable or bad for her, she will choose a divorce over a more frequent sex life. 

And here's why. In theory sex is intense intimacy. At core intimacy is truth. If she feels the need to pretend, to lie, to act like all is good to great when in reality it very much isn't - during sex - that feels bad at a level a typical HD spouse cannot imagine. 

So now permit me a moment of non profane Tourette's. 

Every guy likes to think he's great in bed and his wife comes every single time. And yet - over 20% of marriages are sexless. 

And another 20% are sexually impaired. 

This is why - the smart money is always on communication, not coercion. And I think, Sawney will tell you that the purpose of getting her attention is not to demand increased frequency, but to discover WHY she is avoiding sex in such a determined manner. 





Sawney Beane said:


> I think most *PEOPLE* of both sexes don't see the distinction. For most people, the difference between the silent treatment and making yourself unavailable when you are expected to be around is FAR too subtle to be grasped. Both are perceived as "You were deliberately ignoring me".


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## 2020hindsight (Nov 3, 2015)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



wilson said:


> What is a good way to get the LD spouse to understand how no sex makes you feel? Often, it seems the LD spouse really doesn't care too much about sex and it's not important to them in a significant way. They might think of it as just one activity out of many. Sort of the same way you might like going to the movies, watching football, hanging out at the beach, etc. If you don't get to do one of those things, like miss a movie, no big deal. Just do one of the other things you enjoy. So often it seems the LD spouse doesn't truly understand that sex is not just a 'fun activity' that can be easily be replaced with some other activity. No sex will cause bad feelings and cannot be easily replaced by some other activity.
> 
> So is there some way to tell the LD spouse that no sex makes you feel like XYZ, where XYZ is something they can relate to? Maybe like, no sex makes me feel like when my boss dismisses my hard work that I was really proud of, and I feel like that worse and worse the longer we go without sex. What are some other good analogies that the LD spouse can relate to?


How about explaining how sex makes you feel, and what it means to you emotionally? We're not all alike. You are right that for LD people, sex is just one thing that humans do, like going to the bathroom or brushing your teeth. There is no special meaning or feeling attached to the activity, and if there's no or little physical pleasure in carrying out the act, then it doesn't amount to anything significant in an LD person's life.

I think it would helpful to have the HD spouse explain to his less fortunate spouse what baggage an HD person attaches to sex, so that somebody who doesn't carry such baggage can try to understand.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



MEM2020 said:


> Wilson,
> 
> Sawney Beane is my - alter ego - my mirrored twin. He sees everything I do not.


Now that really IS flattery!



> This is why - the smart money is always on communication, not coercion. And I think, Sawney will tell you that the purpose of getting her attention is not to demand increased frequency, but to discover WHY she is avoiding sex in such a determined manner.


My suspicion is that you will never find out why. Not really. You will get plausible ideas, but in most cases, the other partner lacks the self awareness to know the truth, the ability to elucidate it and generally has no desire whatsoever to actually find out.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

Wilson if the sex was good would you want to stay? Does she have all the other attributes that make a good partner?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

If we are honest, than we try to play to our strengths. 

I am a terrible interrogator due to having an intense aversion to coercion and intimidation. It feels wrong to me.

To compensate, I've worked on my interviewing skills for over a decade. In my experience, you can get way way inside someone's head if your ONLY goal is to discover the truth. 

Often I circle the truth in a patient and non threatening manner. When confident as to what it is, I don't ask, instead I describe it. Often, presented with the truth, people just nod. 

That said, the subtext of all this cannot be self interest. It has to be to use the truth to do good. 





Sawney Beane said:


> Now that really IS flattery!
> 
> 
> 
> My suspicion is that you will never find out why. Not really. You will get plausible ideas, but in most cases, the other partner lacks the self awareness to know the truth, the ability to elucidate it and generally has no desire whatsoever to actually find out.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



wilson said:


> What is a good way to get the LD spouse to understand how no sex makes you feel? Often, it seems the LD spouse really doesn't care too much about sex and it's not important to them in a significant way. They might think of it as just one activity out of many. Sort of the same way you might like going to the movies, watching football, hanging out at the beach, etc. If you don't get to do one of those things, like miss a movie, no big deal. Just do one of the other things you enjoy. So often it seems the LD spouse doesn't truly understand that sex is not just a 'fun activity' that can be easily be replaced with some other activity. No sex will cause bad feelings and cannot be easily replaced by some other activity.
> 
> So is there some way to tell the LD spouse that no sex makes you feel like XYZ, where XYZ is something they can relate to? Maybe like, no sex makes me feel like when my boss dismisses my hard work that I was really proud of, and I feel like that worse and worse the longer we go without sex. What are some other good analogies that the LD spouse can relate to?


This is where the Five Love Languages things is helpful. She obviously has sexuality/touch quite low on her list. You need to identify what she has at the top of her list and relate to that.

There are lots of threads around here that discuss the Love Languages if you search for them.


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## Kattz7 (Oct 11, 2014)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

I am in the same situation. Only difference is that I am the wife and my husband uses excuses to not have sex. 
I feel worthless, unloved, unwanted and believe he likes the feel of his hand more than me. 
Only way we are still married, Jesus holds the key to my life. He gives me worth and strength. 
I moved out, into an apartment, and we consider ourselves "dating" Still no sex but, I can deal better without him next to me in bed. 
I trust the hurt and neglect won't last forever as I know Jesus only wants what is best for me.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



wilson said:


> Often, it seems the LD spouse really doesn't care too much about sex and it's not important to them in a significant way. They might think of it as just one activity out of many.


It's funny because the LD just might be viewing the HD in a _similar_ manner; that the HD doesn't see sex as something significant. 

*



So often it seems the LD spouse doesn't truly understand that sex is not just a 'fun activity' that can be easily be replaced with some other activity.

Click to expand...

*I think this quote is significant. Perhaps the LD sees the HD as seeing sex as a "fun" activity, and *NOT* something that's much more serious and meaningful. 

How often do people here on TAM talk about sex as being "fun"? How many _HD's_ see it as being "fun"? Seems that they view it as 'fun' while they're getting it but serious when they're _not!_ 

Maybe the LD doesn't see it so much as "fun" but as more _serious_, or at least more _mature_. 

Perhaps it's the way sex is approached that's the problem. If you're always talking about it (when you were getting it) with a wink and a smile, making funny noises about it or joking about it, how is the LD going to see YOU as viewing it as anything more than "fun" for you? 

Not necessarily how *I* see it, but just as another possibility into the mind of an LD.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

It's easy to get tied up in words. "Fun" can mean a sort of frivolous enjoyment or it can mean something more important. 

The comment I've heard from some LDs, including my wife, about sex being like dessert shows the disconnect. 

What words to use for something that is enjoyable but not frivolous? Maybe for some people there is no such concept? 

What is the word for how it feels when you young child excitedly wants to show you something they have discovered, or falls asleep on your lap after a busy day. 






Vega said:


> It's funny because the LD just might be viewing the HD in a _similar_ manner; that the HD doesn't see sex as something significant.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



uhtred said:


> The comment I've heard from some LDs, including my wife, about sex being like dessert shows the disconnect.


I would suspect it's something like this. They view sex as something nice but optional. Or perhaps something you do at certain times (start of the relationship, on vacation), but certainly not all the time. But if you need sex, sex is more like food than dessert. If your spouse said, "I'm hungry and need to eat", it would be ridiculous if you said back "I'm not hungry, so you don't get to eat."

One thing that complicates my situation is that I really need her to be happy with the solution. If it was just a matter of laying down the law that would be would be laying on top of each other every Tues/Sat nights, that would be easy. But if she's not into it, or resents it, or is having emotional struggles because of it, that solution won't work for me. I need her to be happy. This isn't something like when I tell my kid to mow the lawn and I don't care if it brings him joy or not. If my wife isn't getting some pleasure, sexual or otherwise, then I'll feel negatively and it'll feel like I'm forcing her.

That's why I'm trying to find a way to get her to truly understand how it feels for me. It's not like I'm complaining I don't get dessert after every meal. It's that I'm starving and something drastic needs to be done. I'm hoping to be able to communicate the depth of the issue so that she can relate and truly understand. 

In addition, I don't necessarily see sex as a solution to my current situation. Yes, it was the origin of the problem many years ago, but now there are years of compounded issues about sex that would need to be worked through. Even if a switched flipped in her tomorrow, I would have a lot of stuff to work through. At the moment, from a romantic perspective, I feel more like she's my sister than my wife. So if she were to say she wanted sex right now, it would be like my sister wanted it. 

The easy solution is to leave and find someone else. I have no doubt I could easily find someone else to have sex with, but all the other stuff of the relationship I don't think would be as easy to replicate.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



wilson said:


> I would suspect it's something like this. They view sex as something nice but optional. Or perhaps something you do at certain times (start of the relationship, on vacation), but certainly not all the time. But if you need sex, sex is more like food than dessert. If your spouse said, "I'm hungry and need to eat", it would be ridiculous if you said back "I'm not hungry, so you don't get to eat."


Maybe she's saying, "I'm not hungry, but if YOU are, you can feed yourself!" 



> That's why I'm trying to find a way to get her to truly understand how it feels for me. It's not like I'm complaining I don't get dessert after every meal. *It's that I'm starving and something drastic needs to be done*. I'm hoping to be able to communicate the depth of the issue so that she can relate and truly understand.


If you compare sex to food and claim that you're "starving", she's probably going to be put-off. 

Not eating can literally kill you. Not having sex...won't. So if you compare the lack of sex to lack of food, she may see it that way some other women see it: That you're just _exaggerating_ in order to get what you want! 

And, she would be right.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



wilson said:


> The easy solution is to leave and find someone else. I have no doubt I could easily find someone else to have sex with, but all the other stuff of the relationship I don't think would be as easy to replicate.


The other stuff may not be easy to replicate, but it's entirely possible that the other stuff could be even better with someone else. That's what I discovered after divorcing my ex: not only could I find a far more sexually compatible person, but one who was also far more compatible in other ways. YMMV.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



Married but Happy said:


> The other stuff may not be easy to replicate, but it's entirely possible that the other stuff could be even better with someone else. That's what I discovered after divorcing my ex: not only could I find a far more sexually compatible person, but one who was also far more compatible in other ways. YMMV.


Even though I agree with your post, I wonder how often the grass is _truly_ greener.

I keep thinking that a number of people who post about a sexless life have said that in the beginning that their sex life was anywhere from "good" to "awesome". 

I hear of men and women who say that they've been living in a sexless marriage for years. They get divorced, and find someone who "loves sex as much as they do". Then they tell us that they've been with their new partner for 6 months...or 2 years.

But it's RARELY for as long as they were _married_. 

I wonder if they had married their current partner _before_ their previous marital partner, with all other things being equal, for the same amount of time they were married before getting divorced, if they'd be able to say that their sex life is currently "awesome"...?


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



Vega said:


> Even though I agree with your post, I wonder how often the grass is _truly_ greener.
> 
> I keep thinking that a number of people who post about a sexless life have said that in the beginning that their sex life was anywhere from "good" to "awesome".
> 
> ...


Well, the grass needn't be greener in _every _way, just in the ways that were lacking AND (about) AS GREEN in the various ways that would be important to you whoever you're with.

It's rather disingenuous to expect that a new relationship will have to have great sex for 10 or 20 years before it's deemed an improvement over the prior bad sex relationship. I do think it needs to be evaluated after about 2 years, when the new relationship hormones wear off. If it's not good enough then, it's time to try again.

We can't know the future, of course, we can only know the present, and the patterns that relationships typically follow over time. In a couple of years, you'll know if the new relationship is better, or not - so, don't rush to marry someone new, if at all. Wait and see, knowing that initial impressions may be wrong.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



Vega said:


> Even though I agree with your post, I wonder how often the grass is _truly_ greener.
> 
> I keep thinking that a number of people who post about a sexless life have said that in the beginning that their sex life was anywhere from "good" to "awesome".
> 
> ...


Second time around is without a doubt much better for me and many others I know.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

Yet strangely, most LD people do not want their partners to "feed themselves", which is to say to find sex somewhere else. 

For many people, sex is something that can only be done with another person. Masturbation is not sex. 

I would have a lot more sympathy for LDs if they had the attitude, "I don't feel like sex, but its completely fine if you want to sleep with someone else. I'll let you know when I'm in the mood". 







Vega said:


> Maybe she's saying, "I'm not hungry, but if YOU are, you can feed yourself!"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



Vega said:


> Maybe she's saying, "I'm not hungry, but if YOU are, you can feed yourself!".


So, maybe she's suggesting the sexual equivalent of a restaurant, or a friend who makes you dinner? In other words, a sex worker or a FWB! Sure, that could work - for a while, anyway.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



uhtred said:


> For many people, sex is something that can only be done with another person. Masturbation is not sex.


But the LD often sees the HD as MOSTLY wanting sex for the _orgasm_. Although sex is ONE way of having an orgasm, it's not the ONLY way. You can get that through masturbation. Most of us don't "need" another person to 'give' us an orgasm. We can do that ourselves. 

it's one thing to deny your partner sex over and over again. But to deny them sex AND to frown upon them resorting to masturbation, I think is horrible.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



Married but Happy said:


> So, maybe she's suggesting the sexual equivalent of a restaurant, or a friend who makes you dinner? In other words, a sex worker or a FWB! Sure, that could work - for a while, anyway.


You and I both know that she's probably not saying that at all. Either she's saying, "Masturbate" or, do nothing. 

Seriously, if we have to resort to FWB or a sex worker while married, why be married in the first place?


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## Bobby5000 (Oct 19, 2011)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

I think you have to distinguish two things. 

1. Wife has a little less sex than most couples. Its once on the weekend and occasionally once during the week. Periodically she is not in the mood and while engaged does not seem truly enthusiastic or fulfilled. 

2. There is very little sex and months will go by. It may be once ever 2 or 3 months, and she periodically makes clear that this is not something she likes. 

If its 1 and an otherwise good marriage, I think you work with it, while if things persistently remain at 2 and there is no interest in changing, then sadly it is probably over.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



Vega said:


> You and I both know that she's probably not saying that at all. Either she's saying, "Masturbate" or, do nothing.
> 
> Seriously, if we have to resort to FWB or a sex worker while married, why be married in the first place?


Exactly. In this particular case, why be married? The OP is questioning that, and the only alternatives (reasonable and unreasonable) to divorce are unacceptable.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

If getting an O was the point, people would just take care of them selves. Certainly the majority of men can get off any time they want in a few minutes. Why spend thousands on call girls? Prostitution would never have existed if masturbation were the equivalent of sex. 

If it is for some people, then I completely understand then being LD. Sex is a complete waste of time and effort if all you want is an O. 




Vega said:


> But the LD often sees the HD as MOSTLY wanting sex for the _orgasm_. Although sex is ONE way of having an orgasm, it's not the ONLY way. You can get that through masturbation. Most of us don't "need" another person to 'give' us an orgasm. We can do that ourselves.
> 
> it's one thing to deny your partner sex over and over again. But to deny them sex AND to frown upon them resorting to masturbation, I think is horrible.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

Wilson,
First you need to define with certainty what it is you require. Then you need to deliver that in a manner that your wife (henceforth W2) will understand. 

Saying she has to be 'happy' about this is - a good starting point but entirely insufficient. You need to be VERY clear about her desire level, arousal level. 

You have to make a critical choice here: Are you ok with her not being as turned on as you? Not having an 'O' every time you connect?

While you can equate this to food, it is unlikely to resonate with her as it isn't really a physical need. It is however a totally valid emotional need in the context of a long term relationship. 

Most wives have those as well and can understand stuff from that frame.

However - the world is full of mechanically sound, but emotionally weak marriages. 

A mechanically sound/emotionally lite marriage is one where:

You rely on each other to produce/manage financial resources, care for children, perform necessary home tasks (cooking, cleaning, repair) and stick to mutually agreed on schedules. 

But you don't give each other much in the way of emotional energy. Not in uplifting, nor in comforting. 

If that is how your marriage works, you will have a terribly difficult time getting her to come to any deep comprehension regarding your sex life.

One last point for now, which is a statement and a question. You haven't provided anywhere near enough info for the folks here to actually help you. This is puzzling given how high the stakes are.

Are you willing to answer a series of fairly pointed questions? Or are you hoping to get help without really saying much of substance about your marriage? 

If you are willing to be transparent, I'm glad to try and assist you. If not, that if perfectly fine, but this will be my final post as I don't work well in the dark. 





wilson said:


> I would suspect it's something like this. They view sex as something nice but optional. Or perhaps something you do at certain times (start of the relationship, on vacation), but certainly not all the time. But if you need sex, sex is more like food than dessert. If your spouse said, "I'm hungry and need to eat", it would be ridiculous if you said back "I'm not hungry, so you don't get to eat."
> 
> One thing that complicates my situation is that I really need her to be happy with the solution. If it was just a matter of laying down the law that would be would be laying on top of each other every Tues/Sat nights, that would be easy. But if she's not into it, or resents it, or is having emotional struggles because of it, that solution won't work for me. I need her to be happy. This isn't something like when I tell my kid to mow the lawn and I don't care if it brings him joy or not. If my wife isn't getting some pleasure, sexual or otherwise, then I'll feel negatively and it'll feel like I'm forcing her.
> 
> ...


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



jld said:


> Didn't Ele post recently that the average child support payment is something like $300/month? And many parents do not pay?
> 
> I don't think it is as easy for SAHPs to leave as some may think. And that is regrettable.





MEM2020 said:


> For men their greatest fear was being laughed at.
> 
> For women it was being killed - typically by their intimate partner.
> 
> I will try and find the study.



I know several divorced people. Let me tell you, it is not the fear of being laughed at that scares men. It is the legal system and the way it is stacked against them. Child support & Alimony can be financial ruin, especially if a guy has some bad luck. About 40% of US households can't survive an unanticipated $400 expense without selling something, skipping critical bills/expenses, or borrowing (often at astronomical rates from payday loan places or credit card companies). New tires on a car, a speeding ticket, getting your car towed and impounded, or a medical problem with a high co-pay and deductible and many families are in deep financial trouble.

If the courts declare you as a deadbeat dad, your wages will be garnisheed, you might loose your drivers license, or any professional license you hold. If any of that happens, there is a better than fair chance you will loose your job. Once that happens, things get even worse.

I know folks who have had their drivers licenses taken away from them, have had their wages garnisheed, have gotten in debt to payday loan companies. Very sad, but predictable.

And yes, women need to fear domestic violence. It is a real issue.

However, having said all that life is important and worth living. Sue Johnson has a book called Hold Me Tight. It discusses how people are social animals and that their physical survival is tied to their emotional bonding with others. To emotionally bond requires touch. Often sex is a short-cut for the touch that people need to emotionally bond and survive.

An LD person is LD in terms of sex. They may or may not be still able to "touch" in non-sexual ways. They may also be able to learn how important touch and sex are to their HD partner, if they are willing to listen, do some introspection, and change themself and how their treat their spouse.

My heart goes out to all the HD and LD couples who are emotionally suffering. Sometimes with effort on both parties part, marriages can be saved and flourish. Sometimes they just have to end.


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## Garibaldi (Dec 21, 2015)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



MEM2020 said:


> Wilson,
> First you need to define with certainty what it is you require. Then you need to deliver that in a manner that your wife (henceforth W2) will understand.
> 
> Saying she has to be 'happy' about this is - a good starting point but entirely insufficient. You need to be VERY clear about her desire level, arousal level.
> ...


MEM that was a fine post. One that we Down Under would call a "Bobby Dazzler".

But why, for the sake of the OP, did you not follow through?

Why does a mechanically sound/emotionally lite marriage even exist? 

Consider the cornucopia of recreational activities a committed couple can do. Imagine one that:

1. Can cause no harm.

2. Delivers prodigious amounts of physical pleasure

3. Is physically good for you.

4. Is psychologically good for you

5. Costs absolutely nothing.

Surely, it would be impossible to do too much of such an activity. Sex is squarely in that category. So if it's nearly absent for years on end there has to be a reason. There can only be one reason: a lack of sexual desire. And there's the rub: you can NOT manufacture/rekindle desire. If OP believes Mrs OP will wake up one morning & say "I will sexually desire OP from today onwards and enjoy banging his brains out" he is, as we in the army used to call strategy doomed to failure, pissing into the wind. He'll only end up with wet socks.

If he has a mechanically sound/emotionally lite marriage I propose he'll have it in perpetuity.

What to do about it is another matter. A tactical nuclear weapon will quickly settle an argument, but, if the fallout contaminates the ground you want to occupy for a hundred years, you may want to rethink that option.


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## Garibaldi (Dec 21, 2015)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



MEM2020 said:


> Wilson,
> First you need to define with certainty what it is you require. Then you need to deliver that in a manner that your wife (henceforth W2) will understand.
> 
> Saying she has to be 'happy' about this is - a good starting point but entirely insufficient. You need to be VERY clear about her desire level, arousal level.
> ...


MEM that was a fine post. One that we Down Under would call a "Bobby Dazzler".

But why, for the sake of the OP, did you not follow through?

Why does a mechanically sound/emotionally lite marriage even exist? 

Consider the cornucopia of recreational activities a committed couple can do. Imagine one that:

1. Can cause no harm.

2. Delivers prodigious amounts of pleasure

3. Is physically good for you.

4. Is psychologically good for you

5. Costs absolutely nothing.

Surely, it would be impossible to do too much of such an activity. Sex is squarely in that category. So if it's nearly absent for years on end there has to be a reason. There can only be one reason: a lack of sexual desire. And there's the rub: you can NOT manufacture/rekindle desire. If OP believes Mrs OP will wake up one morning & say "I will sexually desire OP from today onwards and enjoy banging his brains out" he is, as we in the army used to call strategy doomed to failure, pissing into the wind. He'll only end up with wet socks.

If he has a mechanically sound/emotionally lite marriage I propose he'll have it in perpetuity.

What to do about it is another matter. A tactical nuclear weapon will quickly settle an argument, but, if the fallout contaminates the ground you want to occupy for a hundred years, you may want to rethink that option.

ETA: Aw, c'mon!! We ALL know you do your best work in the dark.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

Garibaldi,

There is nothing finer than a high quality combatant. So let's brawl at a line item level. 

The reason many marriages devolve to mechanically sound/emotionally lite is because emotionally intense marriages can be frightening.

Note how little Wilson has told us. Sex ranged from limited to near absent in his marriage for decades and yet he has told us almost nothing about the trajectory of his marriage much less sex life. Was it great in the beginning? If so, when did it drop off? And why?

He says that otherwise the marriage is very good - but - I flat out don't believe him because a sexually broken marriage is based on some amount of mutual deceit. Not saying the deceit is mean spirited, merely that it is interwoven into their daily interaction. 

So - now I will address points 1-5 below. As you point out, sex is ONLY a uniformly positive experience of you desire your partner AND they are competent/good at sex WITH YOU. 

Wilsons primary issue is that he is more focused on protecting his ego than he is at understanding his partner. 





Garibaldi said:


> MEM that was a fine post. One that we Down Under would call a "Bobby Dazzler".
> 
> But why, for the sake of the OP, did you not follow through?
> 
> ...


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



Garibaldi said:


> MEM that was a fine post. One that we Down Under would call a "Bobby Dazzler".
> 
> But why, for the sake of the OP, did you not follow through?
> 
> ...


It is possible to recover the emotional side of a marriage.

It takes a lot of work and some luck, but it is not impossible.

It starts with a healthy examination of the marriage, similar to what Mem is encouraging.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



MEM2020 said:


> Wilsons primary issue is that he is more focused on protecting his ego than he is at understanding his partner.


Brilliant point, MEM. Insightful.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

JLD,
It is ironic that the physical act which provides the most emotional validation to a man is the same act that (to succeed) requires him to set aside his ego protection gear. 

Validation without transparency might be achievable in a one night stand, but not in a marriage. 



jld said:


> Brilliant point, MEM. Insightful.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



MEM2020 said:


> JLD,
> It is ironic that the physical act which provides the most emotional validation to a man is the same act that (to succeed) requires him to set aside his ego protection gear.
> 
> Validation without transparency might be achievable in a one night stand, but not in a marriage.


Totally agree, MEM.

We can grow so much in marriage if we can hear our partner's truth, no matter how painful.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

From the "Taming of the shrew"

“My tongue will tell the anger of my heart, or else my heart concealing it will break.” 

I read that and instantly thought:
1. Universal truth
2. Genius delivery style
3. Pure M2

And after absorbing it I thought:

"Her tongue speaks the deep truth of my conduct, and denial of it will this marriage break."









jld said:


> Totally agree, MEM.
> 
> We can grow so much in marriage if we can hear our partner's truth, no matter how painful.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



MEM2020 said:


> From the "Taming of the shrew"
> 
> “My tongue will tell the anger of my heart, or else my heart concealing it will break.”
> 
> ...


Would that _every_ husband had that level of maturity, MEM.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



Garibaldi said:


> If OP believes Mrs OP will wake up one morning & say *"I will sexually desire OP from today onwards and enjoy banging his brains out" he is, as we in the army used to call strategy doomed to failure, pissing into the wind.* He'll only end up with wet socks.


Perhaps a big part of the problem is *your (plural)* approach to sex. If you expect her to want to "bang your brains out" then it's no wonder why you're not having sex. 

Banging someone's brains out...getting laid...f*cking...boinking...boning...'give it up'...'doing it'...gettin' some...and other euphemisms for sex may give the idea that you pretty much see sex as some 'fun' _physical_ act--and nothing more. Same goes for the various references to certain body parts and other references to various sex positions and sex acts. 

Referring to sex in slang terms can show a sense of crudeness toward it. Even if you don't use those terms to 'her' face, she may have _heard_ you use those terms before, and get the impression that you REALLY see it as something that's no different than an animal eating it's prey. 

Just another possibility.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

Allowing her to share the truth of her heart is only half the battle. Then you need to be able to address her concerns. The lack of maturity is not always simply about being unwilling to listen. Sometimes you get tired of hearing that you don't cut the mustard. The real act of maturity is being willing to cut your losses when you realize you are fighting a battle you can't win.

Some of us are not mature enough to exit mechanically sound / emotionally lite marriages.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



MEM2020 said:


> Garibaldi said:
> 
> 
> > Consider the cornucopia of recreational activities a committed couple can do. Imagine one that:
> ...


This is SO true, and I would wager that it is the reason for a lot of LD partners not wanting sex and not providing a good reason for it. They do not know how to express criticism of their partner's sexual ability without making things worse instead of better.

To the HD partner, points 1-5 usually hold true with every sexual encounter. It's part of why they love sex so much.

To the LD partner, point 1 may be untrue. Sex may be painful if the HD partner doesn't pay attention to the LD partner's experience, particularly if responsive desire is involved.
To the LD partner, point 2 may be untrue. Anyone who thinks of sex as "banging brains out" doesn't sound like someone who cares much about their partner's pleasure, just their own.
To the LD partner, point 3 is probably untrue if points 1&2 aren't true.
To the LD partner, point 4 is untrue, and in fact the opposite. If the HD partner is the kind of person who makes points 1-3 untrue, each sexual encounter probably does psychological harm to the LD person.
And to the LD partner, point 5 is untrue because there IS a cost.

In my experience, and research, at least. I would also say that this strikes me as a very maleHD and femaleLD dynamic. I'm thinking that the femaleHD and maleLD situation works differently. And I have no idea where same sex relationships would fit. Haven't studied any too intently.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

...


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## JonDeBastardo (Sep 19, 2016)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

Have you thought about a girlfriend? Just curious as I'm in the same boat. I have strong feelings for her and don't want a divorce but I'm tired of living celibate. Maybe it's too logical of a solution but if it could save a marriage who knows...


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## Cormano (Aug 22, 2017)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

Seems like the most common answer is to cheat, ive never cheated, and no intentions do so, i'll wait until my divorce is final and take a long time to work on myself and my kids.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

Zombie thread. Might be worth starting a new one.


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## Cormano (Aug 22, 2017)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*



uhtred said:


> Zombie thread. Might be worth starting a new one.


damn, didnt notice.


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## Phil Anders (Jun 24, 2015)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

There's got to be a way to auto-lock stale threads, with an exception for OP to post a long-term update. Or at least a "warning: you're replying to a stale thread" alert for would-be resurrectors. Posting the same zombie GIFs and manually closing threads must get tiresome...


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*










On the contrary--posting the dead thread gif's never gets tiring!


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

I have had that talk, but not had that talk and it saved my sex starved marriage.

The talk occurred in the office of a sex therapist asking my wife what my wife thought would be the ultimate result of her refusing to ever again have sex with her husband. After several minutes of trying to avoid the question, my wife said we would probably divorce.

The Sex Therapist asked me if I had every thought about divorce? I said yes, that I had researched the State laws about divorce and when filings had to be made and how long they took before a divorce was final. I said that I had also (a few months back) promised myself that I would be in a loving sexual relationship with a woman (hopefully my wife) by a certain major milestone birthday. I said I would work hard to save our marriage, but if my wife couldn't be that loving sexual woman, I would divorce her and find someone else to love and be loved by.

The ST said that was reasonable and gave my wife sufficient time to figure out what she wanted. 

My personal advice on this zombie thread is have the discussion in the office of a really good sex therapist and let the ST lead the discussion.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

Hello past self. Here is what future self would recommend. It needs to be done in a shocking and serious way so that she truly understands that a marriage without intimacy ends in divorce. Whether that's from a therapist or a blow-out argument, she needs to have an epiphany that the problem must be fixed or else divorce is inevitable. She needs to realize that whatever justification she has for no intimacy must be dealt with rather than just using it as a permanent roadblock to intimacy.

Trying to nice your way around the issue won't have much chance of success. Although well intentioned, she will only make small, short-term improvements and then things will revert to the way they were (or continue to decline). Without some sort of shock to her system, she won't take the issue to heart to work on a lasting fix.


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## Taxman (Dec 21, 2016)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

Wilson, please elaborate, what happened in between your postings.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

*Re: How do you approach the "No sex means divorce" talk with your *nice* spouse*

Zombie, thread closed.


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