# 38 Years Together - Confused About What To Do - In Pain



## Bob4678

Please bear with me. I am not good at these types of things. My wife and I have been married for just shy of 38 years. I am 66 and she is 62. We met in Japan while we were both in the Navy. 

It has been a life of bliss, love and just a whole lot of fun. We retired when I was 37 and she was 33. We really, really retired. Was able to with my Navy retirement and rewards from my real estate purchases. We, then, travelled the world both inside and outside the United States. What a perfect time it has been.

We have two daughters that are presently 31. One gave birth to our first grandchild in 2016. Second grandchild two years later. I think I may have blown my relationship with my wife by concentrating so heavily on the first grandchild. I became addicted to the little girl and had her with me for 35-40 hours a week while her Mom worked. 

Looking back, I believe that my attention and time spent with the grandchildren caused my wife to pursue other avenues of entertainment as I was taking care of the babies. Had I known, I would have put her first in every manner.

I was so blind with my grandchild that I did not become aware of my wife’s alcohol problem until a year ago. She, bravely, signed up for and completed an inpatient alcohol program. It has worked and she is alcohol free for the last year. But I believe that the damage was done.

Her days are spent working out, doing art, reading, listening to music and a whole bunch of things that are more solo. Her time for me is minimal now. Prior to this, we would spend 24/7 together. We are living in a big house and are now, basically, “together but separate.” 

Life should be perfect but I miss my best friend, my soul mate and our talks. Now, we are mainly together when the grandchildren come visiting.

What can I do? 

Please understand that I put this in this section because I trust women and would appreciate responses from a female’s view.

Thanks for your thoughts.


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## lifeistooshort

My first question to you is why do you think you were ok with diverting so much attention from your wife.

You claim that prior to this you did everything together, so I would think you would've missed her early on if you guys were really that close. But according to you the loss wasn't felt on your end for several years and even then only after you realized she had an alcohol problem.

So how is it that she was your best friend that you did everything with and yet it was apparently not very hard for you to go without that connection?

It doesn't add up. I'll wait for your answer before I address anything else.


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## sokillme

The above post makes sense but also check your phone bill. See if she is calling or texting any numbers you are not familiar with.


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## Bob4678

Thanks for questions. Will try my best to answer them as they are insightful.

It wasn’t okay to divert time away from her. It was stupid of me. We moved closer to the grandchildren so we could be involved but she was not interested in them as much as me. 

I love children and was the main caretaker of our kids in most things as they were growing. I went crazy with our granddaughter and just did not see it. I would watch the first one from 8-4 most weekdays. My wife was involved very little and she busied herself with her pursuits. I cannot blame her.

As I look back, it is obvious to me that I had an addiction to my grandchildren. Granddaughter was born in 2016. Over the next three years, my wife never expressed any concern and would be with me 24/7 less the time that I was with the grandchildren. We travelled around the country four times and travelled to Thailand twice. It was only after she got admitted to the hospital for alcohol intoxication that it occurred to me that I was doing a total disservice to our relationship.

Now, we are only together WHEN we have the grandchildren over which is three to four days a week for about four hours. They are wonderful times and we talk lovingly together after they leave. Then, she heads to her room down the hall. We sleep separately until about 3:00 in the morning due to hot flashes. We wake up every morning together. 

I guess that I did not miss her because, unlike now, she continued to be with me after the grandchildren left and we continued our great life. She never approached me about the time away and believed I was doing a good thing. As I look back, she hid her alcohol use well as she was the same loving person throughout.

I feel confused. Please ask more questions.

Thanks


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## Bob4678

sokillme said:


> The above post makes sense but also check your phone bill. See if she is calling or texting any numbers you are not familiar with.


She rarely uses her phone and it is normally downstairs. She does not seem to hide it to keep me from finding anything. I cannot fathom anything like that as our sex life is absolutely great with her wanting two times a week and her indulging me almost daily. 

But, I have read the shock many have written on this website about finding out about cheating.

I have also read on here that it would be a breach of privacy and lack of trust if I snooped. Not sure what to do in this area.

Thanks for your thoughts.


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## lifeistooshort

So your wife developed her own interests, and she got treatment and is now sober.

What is it you want? For her to be there while you have the children and also when you don't? It seems unfair that you get to pursue your interests (the grandkids) but she can't pursue hers.

I'd bet she was lonely but didn't want to take away from the grandkids. What do you think your response would have been if she'd expressed that you were spending too much time with them?

Have you made any attempt to be part of her interests or expressed a desire to know more about them?


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## Bob4678

lifeistooshort said:


> So your wife developed her own interests, and she got treatment and is now sober.
> 
> Yes.
> 
> What is it you want? For her to be there while you have the children and also when you don't? It seems unfair that you get to pursue your interests (the grandkids) but she can't pursue hers.
> 
> I want to spend the rest of my life with her. I want to feel good about her pursuits. I am scared because I have many hours a day alone and will need to seek out new pursuits. She gets jealous if I seek pursuits. I cannot comfortably leave the house as she gets concerned about what I am doing. Seems I can only be separate but together in the house
> 
> 
> I'd bet she was lonely but didn't want to take away from the grandkids. What do you think your response would have been if she'd expressed that you were spending too much time with them?
> 
> I would have reversed course and paid for daycare for the kids. My wife is the only one that matters to me.
> 
> Have you made any attempt to be part of her interests or expressed a desire to know more about them?
> 
> Her pursuits are reading, listening to music, whirlpool bath, exercise and crochet. Recently, she added doing art. We walk together and went to the zoo recently. We used to love to watch tv together but now she falls asleep while watching.


Thanks.


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## Bob4678

I tried to answer the questions within the quote. Not sure that I did it right. Thanks again.


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## lifeistooshort

No worries.

So have you talked with her about your alone time? Pointed out that while you'd prefer to spend that time with her, it seems reasonable that if she's going to do her thing you should be able to do yours?

If you were to pursue your own interests what would they be?

Have you brought up putting the kids in day care. If so what was her response? If not have you considered initiating that conversation? It's unfair to put that all on her so she's the bad guy, which is how that's going to be received.


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## Bob4678

lifeistooshort said:


> No worries.
> 
> So have you talked with her about your alone time? Pointed out that while you'd prefer to spend that time with her, it seems reasonable that if she's going to do her thing you should be able to do yours?
> 
> Yes to both questions.
> 
> If you were to pursue your own interests what would they be?
> 
> No idea. Honestly, my wife has been my life.
> 
> Have you brought up putting the kids in day care. If so what was her response? If not have you considered initiating that conversation? It's unfair to put that all on her so she's the bad guy, which is how that's going to be received.
> 
> She loves being with me and the kids the little time we spend with them. We discussed how much time we would spend with them and I went with the 2-3 times a week that she recommended.
> 
> I guess other pursuits would be more time with the grandchildren. I cannot do that as it would put us back to where we were before.


I want my wife to be happy and will do anything to make that happened. I just do not know what to do


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## Livvie

You've mentioned a couple of times that you were "addicted" to your grandchild(ren). That's not a word many people use to describe their relationship with their kids or their grandkids. Can you tell more about that? Have you explored WHY you reacted that way to having grandchildren? Wanting to be their childcare for 35 to 40 hours a week is huge.


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## Beach123

What does your wife do to support her sobriety? Is she doing things to show you that she isn’t drinking anymore? If she hid it before how can you be sure she isn’t drinking now?

have you had a serious conversation with her telling her you need to prioritize being connected together? Have you planned outings in the past year together? Why not do that two times a week together?


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## Bob4678

Livvie said:


> You've mentioned a couple of times that you were "addicted" to your grandchild(ren). That's not a word many people use to describe their relationship with their kids or their grandkids. Can you tell more about that? Have you explored WHY you reacted that way to having grandchildren? Wanting to be their childcare for 35 to 40 hours a week is huge.


Thanks for your questions. Addicted is probably the wrong word. Just wanted to be with them as much as possible. The “WHY” is a very good question. We retired when our kids were two. My last year in the Navy was pretty easy and I was able to spend much more time with our kids than my wife. It was wonderful. I got out of the Navy a year before my wife so I had the kids while she finished her service. After we were both got out of the Navy, we had a live in Nanny as we lived life large. I spent more time and effort with the kids than my wife. Looking back not sure why. 

Wow, that is a difficult question about WHY.


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## Diana7

I dont think at all that you were addicted to your grandchildren, I think you just loved them. Usually it would be both husband and wife who would look after grandchildren, but as you say you largely bought up your children as well, so clearly she isnt so interested in them. 
It seems that you need to find some hobbies and interests for youself, but also to have a heart to heart talk about the time you spend together and apart. Hopefully you can come to a compromise. We have some friends who both have different things they do, but they always make sure that all weekends and one set day in the week is for them to do things together and I think that is a good plan. 
I honestly dont think you were to blame for her drinking, it seems rather exteme tor someone to drink that much just because their spouse cares for the grandchildren while their parents work, many grandparents do this. Maybe if she had done it with you things would have been better. 

I think that with you having retired so early(and the navy must give amazingly high pensions where you live!)you just felt lost and a bit useless needing something to do, hense your desire to have the grandchildren full time.


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## Bob4678

Beach123 said:


> What does your wife do to support her sobriety? Is she doing things to show you that she isn’t drinking anymore? If she hid it before how can you be sure she isn’t drinking now?
> 
> have you had a serious conversation with her telling her you need to prioritize being connected together? Have you planned outings in the past year together? Why not do that two times a week together?


She does meetings and online stuff. We agreed to have a breathalyzer in the house to be used any time she leaves the house. She wanted to do this for her safety. Normally, she would just blow in my face to see if I could smell alcohol. Her vice was straight vodka and beer. 

We have had many conversations about us. She says that she enjoys her private time. The other day she mentioned that four hours a day seems about right for us to be together. We do drives and other day trips routinely. 

When we are together, it is wonderful. When I say that my wife is my life, I meant it to the extreme. That is probably not good.

Do I step back and support 100% her pursuits to my detriment? Do I demand that she prioritize us to her detriment? I just cannot say no to her and what she wants. Never have been able to say no.

In the Navy, I was an ego driven, type a personality. My wife changed me to serve her. I do not regret that and would like to do so for the rest of my life. I just do not know how.

This is really helping and my wife and I just discussed this thread. She wants to hear what you all have to say also.

Thanks so much.


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## Livvie

I'd explore the WHY of needing to be with your grandchild 40 hours a week. Until you figure that out, it might be hard to move forward. I'd think you need to figure it out so you can let your wife know something like that won't happen again, such a diversion from the couple that you were.


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## sokillme

Bob4678 said:


> She rarely uses her phone and it is normally downstairs. She does not seem to hide it to keep me from finding anything. I cannot fathom anything like that as our sex life is absolutely great with her wanting two times a week and her indulging me almost daily.
> 
> But, I have read the shock many have written on this website about finding out about cheating.
> 
> I have also read on here that it would be a breach of privacy and lack of trust if I snooped. Not sure what to do in this area.
> 
> Thanks for your thoughts.


I didn't say snoop I said check your phone bill which presumably have access too.

Besides all that why can you just talk to her, and tell her you miss her. Woo her like you did when you were dating? That should tell you very quickly if she is open to it. 

I don't understand why this is so hard. Send her flowers that says you miss her. See what she says.


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## sokillme

Livvie said:


> I'd explore the WHY of needing to be with your grandchild 40 hours a week. Until you figure that out, it might be hard to move forward. I'd think you need to figure it out so you can let your wife know something like that won't happen again, such a diversion from the couple that you were.


I agree this is a lot of time with the grand kids. Where are the parents? I would be like, Mom or Dad, time to go home now these are my kids remember?

How much time do you want to spend with your wife? 4 hours a day seems reasonable to me. 



> When we are together, it is wonderful. When I say that my wife is my life, I meant it to the extreme. That is probably not good.


No it's not good and it may be a turn off. Ever hear the quote "absence makes the heart go fonder" there is truth in that. Women really don't like clingy men. It makes them seem weak, and women really really don't like weak men. It's very unattractive to them.


Maybe you need to get some friends and hobbies.


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## Young at Heart

Bob4678 said:


> She does meetings and online stuff.
> 
> ......We have had many conversations about us. She says that she enjoys her private time. The other day she mentioned that four hours a day seems about right for us to be together. We do drives and other day trips routinely.
> 
> When we are together, it is wonderful. When I say that my wife is my life, I meant it to the extreme. That is probably not good.
> 
> Do I step back and support 100% her pursuits to my detriment? Do I demand that she prioritize us to her detriment? I just cannot say no to her and what she wants. Never have been able to say no........


A few thoughts.

Your wife struggled with and cured an addiction. That is huge. To accomplish this she had to emotionally grow, get focused and become stronger. Part of her process was to discover who she was and what she wanted to do with her life. She had to rely upon herself to do this. She is now a new and different woman.

Dr. David Schnarch would point out that in marriage we all grow and marure a different rates and this results in a constant push/pull and renegotiation of roles as the marriage matures. You need to accept this, forgive her and embrace the new dynamic in your relationship. I would suggest you read his book Intimacy and Desire and focus on the part where he discusses how some require their spouse to define themself.

I would also recommend that you read Glover's book, No More Mr. Nice Guy. Being a Nice Guy is his code words for being a man who is dependent on his wife for his happiness. One of Glovers recommendations is for you to get a life, or GAL. Again his code words for reinventing yourself to become a new and better you that is more confident and proud of who you are. Most men and women find confident non-clingy people sexy and interesting.

I was a nice guy for a while. I decided to change. Part of my GAL was to loose weight, get in shape, take up sports I gave up early in my marriage, dress better and communicate more clearly with my wife. I did some endurance running, took a first place in my age group, took up mountain climbing and hunting. It certainly changed the way my wife viewed me and forced us both to renegotiate roles in the push/pull of marriage. She has things she does, I have things I do, we have things we do together.

Now as to your grand daughter. I have to grandchildren. I understand your love. However avoid being used as free babysitting. Young working parents have a hard time finding and affording someone they can trust with their children. With Covid 19 home or on-line schooling this is a real thing right now. One of the thing my wife and I do is have special time with our grandchildren. i have volunteered too help teach certain subjects in their classes. My wife picks them up certain days a week and does things with them bringing them home by dinner and we also take them out for hikes to parks, etc. You can always include a child in an exercise routine (get a jogging stroller, a child carrier backpack, a bicycle with a child seat on the back, etc.).

Good luck

PS Ask her if there is a new hobby or old hobby the two of you might do together. My wife and I did 5K charity walks with an other couple for a while.


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## Bob4678

Sokillme,

Appreciate all you thoughts and will definitely be thinking about them overnight. Not sure about “absence makes the heart grow fonder” as I met my present wife in Japan way back in 1982 while I was married to my first wife of five years. Basically, I went to sea onboard my ship home ported in Japan and my first wife played with my best friend. But, I do understand the quote.

Both parents were working at the time but my daughter now stays home. We take the kids because we love them and want to see them but to also give Mom and Dad a break from them. 24/7 with a four and two year old can be challenging. Especially with Covid and so much closed in California

“How much time do you want to spend with your wife? 4 hours a day seems reasonable to me.”

I am surprised that four hours would seem reasonable in these circumstances. My desire would be to be with her for twice that amount. We get up at 6:00 a.m. 14 hours until she heads down the hall where she would have until 3:00 a.m. of her own time. Seems reasonable to me that four hours with the kids, eight hours with me and two hours of her personal time. On days with no kids, she has an extra four hours. Plus she has from 8-3:00 a.m. to herself. 

What do you all think?

Trying to find friends or outside interest in Southern California during the pandemic and fires is very difficult. Outside hobbies are also few.

Thanks.


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## Bob4678

Young At Heart,

Many good points that we will delve into. My wife and I used to do long distance runs. We have probably down 50 10ks, 20 Half Marathons and I have done one marathon. My wife has done two marathons.

Thanks for all the information.


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## EveningThoughts

When did your wife's alcohol problem start? Ws it before or after the grandchildren?

People use alcohol to self medicate. She may have overcome the addiction now, but still be working on herself and the reason why she used alcohol in the first place. 
Is your wife depressed?

Do you drink? If you do, your wife would have to avoid being in your company when you do.

You mention enjoying being with each other and in each others company for most of your marriage 24/7. 
Before the lockdown, did you or your wife have other friends you see as individuals and other couple friends that you get together with? Do either of you have interests outside the home and family that put you in contact with other people? 

When my husband and I were great together I would have happily spent 24 hours a day with him. But he broke that bond. 
Besides you pulling the plug and switching your attention to the grandchildren, is there anything else that you can think of that might have damaged your connection?


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## Bob4678

EveningThoughts said:


> When did your wife's alcohol problem start? Ws it before or after the grandchildren?
> 
> She indicates that it started when we moved up close to our daughter. A year after moving, our granddaughter was born.
> 
> People use alcohol to self medicate. She may have overcome the addiction now, but still be working on herself and the reason why she used alcohol in the first place.
> Is your wife depressed?
> 
> No indication of depression. If anything, I am the one depressed or, at least, deflated.
> 
> Do you drink? If you do, your wife would have to avoid being in your company when you do.
> 
> No, I do not drink.
> 
> You mention enjoying being with each other and in each others company for most of your marriage 24/7.
> Before the lockdown, did you or your wife have other friends you see as individuals and other couple friends that you get together with? Do either of you have interests outside the home and family that put you in contact with other people?
> 
> No, we did not. We were always “odd couple out” to the community. You are not thought of fondly when you retire in your mid-thirties and others are still hard at work.
> 
> When my husband and I were great together I would have happily spent 24 hours a day with him. But he broke that bond.
> 
> Sorry to hear that.
> 
> Besides you pulling the plug and switching your attention to the grandchildren, is there anything else that you can think of that might have damaged your connection?
> 
> My wife and I earlier talked about switching to seeing more of the grandchildren. We did this while discussing earlier posts. She says she is much more interested now since we had them overnight last weekend and she greatly enjoyed it.
> 
> Maybe because I changed from an ego driven, type a personality to a wimp??


I have answered the questions in the quote. Thanks. Very thought provoking.


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## Beach123

Since your wife betrayed you by hiding an alcohol problem I’d say she owes it to you to get connected to YOU - the person she married and betrayed by drinking to excess! Has she done ALL her step work! Does she sponsor anyone?
She has enough “alone time” it time for her to spend more time nurturing her marriage to you! After all - that program she is supposed to be working is supposed to make her LESS selfish and more of a person who is doing more FOR OTHERS - including making amends to those she harmed (which is you) considering she was lying to you for a long time by hiding the drinking problem.

why isn’t she doing MORE to set things right with you? She betrayed you! You should be upset! Especially since she’s basically avoiding you and ignoring your needs. Speak up! Tell her you need her to participate more with you!


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## aine

lifeistooshort said:


> My first question to you is why do you think you were ok with diverting so much attention from your wife.
> 
> You claim that prior to this you did everything together, so I would think you would've missed her early on if you guys were really that close. But according to you the loss wasn't felt on your end for several years and even then only after you realized she had an alcohol problem.
> 
> So how is it that she was your best friend that you did everything with and yet it was apparently not very hard for you to go without that connection?
> 
> It doesn't add up. I'll wait for your answer before I address anything else.


I agree with this assessment, something is missing


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## aine

Bob4678 said:


> She rarely uses her phone and it is normally downstairs. She does not seem to hide it to keep me from finding anything. I cannot fathom anything like that as our sex life is absolutely great with her wanting two times a week and her indulging me almost daily.
> 
> But, I have read the shock many have written on this website about finding out about cheating.
> 
> I have also read on here that it would be a breach of privacy and lack of trust if I snooped. Not sure what to do in this area.
> 
> Thanks for your thoughts.


As women grow older they often become more and more content with their own company. The things they want from their husband and marriage are not forthcoming so they learn to let it go. You were occupied elsewhere, so she learned to shut down but put on a show for the family. She sought solace from the bottle due to loneliness. Are you telling me she never brought up this subject or her feelings in all these years? I find it hard to believe. Women will normally broach the subject, fight and cry about thei unhappiness until they don’t Anymore. I suggest you and she have a solid heart to heart. It sounds like she has accepted the crumbs you gave her and has learned to move along with the alcohol as a crutch. Talk to her.


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## aine

Livvie said:


> You've mentioned a couple of times that you were "addicted" to your grandchild(ren). That's not a word many people use to describe their relationship with their kids or their grandkids. Can you tell more about that? Have you explored WHY you reacted that way to having grandchildren? Wanting to be their childcare for 35 to 40 hours a week is huge.


This is somewhat troubling too. Why would you want to spend so much time with your grand kids? If your wife a different culture?


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## aine

Beach123 said:


> Since your wife betrayed you by hiding an alcohol problem I’d say she owes it to you to get connected to YOU - the person she married and betrayed by drinking to excess! Has she done ALL her step work! Does she sponsor anyone?
> She has enough “alone time” it time for her to spend more time nurturing her marriage to you! After all - that program she is supposed to be working is supposed to make her LESS selfish and more of a person who is doing more FOR OTHERS - including making amends to those she harmed (which is you) considering she was lying to you for a long time by hiding the drinking problem.
> 
> why isn’t she doing MORE to set things right with you? She betrayed you! You should be upset! Especially since she’s basically avoiding you and ignoring your needs. Speak up! Tell her you need her to participate more with you!


Whilst I would normally agree with this assessment, one must put it in context. She turned to alcohol to fill up the empty hole he left, I bet.


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## aine

Bob4678 said:


> I have answered the questions in the quote. Thanks. Very thought provoking.


You changed from an Ego driven Type A personality person. That is a very loaded statement requiring exploration. Have you always wanted to control everything and everyone in your life including rearing your own children, now your grandchildren? Why? Do you manage your daughters lives? Why can’t they organise their own child care? How do you get on with your sons in laws ( if any)? Did your wife have any say in child rearing or grandchild rearing. Did she have any say in retirement issues, what you would do in your retirement, whether she wanted to retire, etc? I think there is a lot of stuff under the rug here. From the glimpse you have given us you sound a bit controlling.


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## Beach123

aine said:


> Whilst I would normally agree with this assessment, one must put it in context. She turned to alcohol to fill up the empty hole he left, I bet.


you've made several assumptions in your last three posts about her drinking problem. Please don’t speak for her.

there’s a trauma for her - she may not have even realized what that is yet. She needs to delve deep to uncover what her issue is. Counseling can help.


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## Diana7

aine said:


> This is somewhat troubling too. Why would you want to spend so much time with your grand kids? If your wife a different culture?


Loads of grandparents look after their grandchildren while their parents go to work.


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## Diana7

aine said:


> You changed from an Ego driven Type A personality person. That is a very loaded statement requiring exploration. Have you always wanted to control everything and everyone in your life including rearing your own children, now your grandchildren? Why? Do you manage your daughters lives? Why can’t they organise their own child care? How do you get on with your sons in laws ( if any)? Did your wife have any say in child rearing or grandchild rearing. Did she have any say in retirement issues, what you would do in your retirement, whether she wanted to retire, etc? I think there is a lot of stuff under the rug here. From the glimpse you have given us you sound a bit controlling.


In the UK many working parents cant afford the expensive cost of childcare. Hense many grandparents care for gradchildren, especially in school holidays. Its very common here.


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## Diana7

aine said:


> As women grow older they often become more and more content with their own company. The things they want from their husband and marriage are not forthcoming so they learn to let it go. You were occupied elsewhere, so she learned to shut down but put on a show for the family. She sought solace from the bottle due to loneliness. Are you telling me she never brought up this subject or her feelings in all these years? I find it hard to believe. Women will normally broach the subject, fight and cry about thei unhappiness until they don’t Anymore. I suggest you and she have a solid heart to heart. It sounds like she has accepted the crumbs you gave her and has learned to move along with the alcohol as a crutch. Talk to her.


How could a women be lonely when she has her husband and grandchild there? Most women love seeing their grandchildren.


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## Livvie

I'm also putting my suspicion in that the trauma was that husband suddenly had his life focus on a grandchild to the tune of 40 hours a week.

I've never heard of that happening unless the grandparent needed the money and took on being 40 hour a week child care provider for financial reasons-- because they need a job. Most grandparents, while loving their grandchildren, want more of a life of their own. He took on a full time job as child care provider.


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## Livvie

... adding, OP you should have realized something was amiss with your decision to watch your grandchild all day everyday when it was you alone doing it, and it wasn't a joint endeavor with your wife/she wasn't participating in it with you. What was she doing all day everyday during that time and why didn't it ring alarm bells after even the first week of her not babysitting with you?


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## In Absentia

It seems strange to me that a conversation about this never took place? Or maybe it did and the OP swept it under the rug... you don't just start drinking heavily like that?


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## Donny69

I can't get past that you've both been retired for 30 years? So the Navy gig was so sweet that you never had to work again and you're able to live in a big house in Southern California? Wow, I'm floored because the private sector has been nowhere near that good to me and at fifty I'm nowhere near retiring. They'll probably wheel me off after I slump over dead at my desk someday.

Sorry for the thread jack... carry on!


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

OP, it's time to put the brakes on the in the past this, why did I, etc etc.

Same with her and Ws back story.

To build a future, take an objective look where you, where you both are, today.

Start from where you're at.

W will take you for granted, there's no doubt, and if you become a doormat because of your likely perceived guilt, unrealistic view of your guilt, there will be a larger chasm between you two.

Start with your happy to be with her, conversely she should realize she's fortunate to be with you, too and if she's not showing that then let her do without your care.

You can't earn her love. Her mindset is what has to rearrange.

PS hopefully she's not going to AA meetings ongoing.

As an organization AA is more interested in keeping attendance up than solving a person's problems. And they will indoctrinate her into being more loyal to their cause than to family. That's a fact.

Other support, healthy support, yes, but not AA.


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## aine

Diana7 said:


> How could a women be lonely when she has her husband and grandchild there? Most women love seeing their grandchildren.


Sometimes @Diana I think you have led a charmed, sheltered life from the way you make comments. Loneliness is not about not having people around you. It is about whether others are actually 'present' in your life. He just said he wasn't 'present,' he was physically there but not for her. Caring for others is a lifetime job of many women, how much caring was she receiving, it seems very little? Maybe she spent years taking care of others needs not her own and no-one else took care of them either. Just because people are there physically does not mean they are actually 'present' in your life and know anything about what is going on with you. People can be married for 30 years and be very lonely because their spouse is there physically but not 'there' for them and knows nothing about what is happening with them or in their life. This is why many men are shocked when their wives up and leave them, they may have been physically there but did not actually 'see' the wife/spouse, etc. It happens. You seem to have this view that as long as a woman is surrounded by her family then she ought not to be lonely which I find quite insensitive on behalf of those in families where they are never 'seen,' but do all and sundry for everyone (I am not talking about me, but I know one or two.) Are they lonely in their families, hell yes!


----------



## aine

Beach123 said:


> you've made several assumptions in your last three posts about her drinking problem. Please don’t speak for her.
> 
> there’s a trauma for her - she may not have even realized what that is yet. She needs to delve deep to uncover what her issue is. Counseling can help.


Yes, agreed we don't have much to go on but likewise i would say that you too made assumptions about what she was doing to her husband. i sense alot of projection. i too am married to an alcoholic so I know where you are coming from, but i thought your assessment was a bit one sided.


----------



## aine

Diana7 said:


> Loads of grandparents look after their grandchildren while their parents go to work.


Seriously for so many hours day and day out? I don't know why you are making such comments, the OP stated in HIS own opinion he was "addicted" to his grandchildren and spent too much time with them. I didn't say it.


----------



## Blondilocks

I suspect his wife felt abandoned when baby came along and put on a brave face. There went their traditional happy-go-lucky lifestyle and she was stuck raising kids again. Enter booze to fill her loneliness.

You know, not all women love raising grandchildren. Seeing grandchildren occasionally and raising them are two different critters. 

OP, you need to develop some interests other than your wife and grandkids. Get out of the house for your own sake. It isn't fair of your wife to expect you to sit in the house all day just because she does.


----------



## Bob4678

So much info and questions that I am overwhelmed. I will try to answer as completely as possible but with 38 years it is hard to explain all. Please let me try.

Drinking. She has 10 brothers and sisters and ALL are heavy drinkers. My wife and I would only drink on vacation or overseas. We have had many talks about the drinking. I feel guilt that I caused her being lonely and led to her drinking. Prior to her rehab, we had many talks about her being unhappy. She would convince me that she was content and happy. I remember a few times I asked about alcohol smell on her. She convinced me that it was mouth wash.

Type “a” Personality. Our life was centered around I would take care of all financial stuff, trips, and my household chores. She would take care of the house stuff and her chores. When I prepared for retirement at 20 years service, wife had been in for 15 years. We went to dinner. We discussed finances and I mentioned that she could decide to stay in the Navy to retire at 20 with pension or get out at 16 years. She immediately decided to get out after 16 years. I was controlling but, then again, I would respond positive to any request she would.

She would mention reading about Amsterdam. We went within three months. She mentioned Thailand and went within 60 days. She would mention travel and I would responded with a 30 day, 10,500 driving trip around the United States. I would listen and respond by planning to give her all that she wanted. This past March, we were in Germany for 30 days but returned after a week due to Covid.

Not sure what personality I have now but it seems that I may have felt guilt within and wanted to please her wherever I could??

Retirement. With two Navy incomes, we were able to save over 50% of our income. I am very good at money and invested in real estate and real estate loans. It was quite lucrative. We arrived in San Diego in February of 1983 when expenses were more in line with income. We have been blessed.

A side note: My wife and I, the other grandparents, pregnant daughter and brother-in-law went to the Price is Right in 2018. My wife did very well when ishe was told to “Come on down.” It was so exciting and I was so proud of her.

Grandchildren: For me, being with the grandchildren is pure joy and I do not see it as a job. They are just joys. The overnight last week seems to have awaken more interest in the grandchildren with the wife. The grandchildren did not stop us from traveling extensively overseas and in the U.S. Or going to museums, movies, beach, mountains, L.A., etc.

Please ask more questions or give more feedback. My wife has become interested in this thread.


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## lj2932

aine said:


> Seriously for so many hours day and day out? I don't know why you are making such comments, the OP stated in HIS own opinion he was "addicted" to his grandchildren and spent too much time with them. I didn't say it.


I don't always agree with everything Diana says but I feel I ought to point out that it is indeed VERY common over here for grandparents to provide childcare purely because the alternatives are extremely expensive. It can easily take an entire salary, especially if you have more than one child. Maybe this is different across the pond.

Apparently, according to an organisation called AgeUK, 40% of grandparents over 50 in the UK provide regular childcare for their grandchildren.


----------



## Livvie

lj2932 said:


> I don't always agree with everything Diana says but I feel I ought to point out that it is indeed VERY common over here for grandparents to provide childcare purely because the alternatives are extremely expensive. It can easily take an entire salary, especially if you have more than one child. Maybe this is different across the pond.
> 
> Apparently, according to an organisation called AgeUK, 40% of grandparents over 50 in the UK provide regular childcare for their grandchildren.


Money clearly isn't the issue here. OP retired in his 30s. If things were tight monetarily for his daughter and her husband, he could have helped them out financially rather than becoming the full time daycare provider. ESPECIALLY SINCE HIS WIFE was not interested in becoming a daycare.


----------



## Bob4678

lj2932 said:


> It can easily take an entire salary, especially if you have more than one child. Maybe this is different across the pond.


Our granddaughter was in preschool prior to Covid and it cost about $850 a month. My son-in-law is an engineer and makes good money. We take the kids for the joy and to give them a break. 

My wife has now read this thread and asked me to express her thanks for the responses.

This is really helping. Thanks.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

If OP found a joy for a time by spending a significant portion of time with their grandchild there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Coupled with the facts that the W wasn't deprived of any desires she thought were important it just makes it ridiculous to condemn the OP in any way for this period in his life.

It was for a short period of time, really really short when put in context with the length of the M, and limited in impact contrasted with the amount of traveling and other times together with W.

Truly, if the W is using the grandkids time as a reason to blame H for her troubles she needs a shot of reality.


----------



## lj2932

Livvie said:


> Money clearly isn't the issue here. OP retired in his 30s. If things were tight monetarily for his daughter and her husband, he could have helped them out financially rather than becoming the full time daycare provider. ESPECIALLY SINCE HIS WIFE was not interested in becoming a daycare.


I have no argument with that. What Diana said that aine took issue with, was "Loads of grandparents look after their grandchildren while their parents go to work." I'm simply pointing out that that is true for the UK, and the reason why it is so.


----------



## lj2932

Bob4678 said:


> Our granddaughter was in preschool prior to Covid and it cost about $850 a month.


Over here it's about $320 a week at current exchange rates, which I expect is why it's so much more usual for grandparents to do the job!


----------



## Livvie

lj2932 said:


> I have no argument with that. What Diana said that aine took issue with, was "Loads of grandparents look after their grandchildren while their parents go to work." I'm simply pointing out that that is true for the UK, and the reason why it is so.


I have Diana blocked right now (even though I do enjoy some of her posts) so I didn't see any of that discussion. But it's not even relevant in this situation, right? There seems to be plenty of funds to go around the extended family if help was needed. And OP isn't in the UK.


----------



## lj2932

Livvie said:


> I have Diana blocked right now (even though I do enjoy some of her posts) so I didn't see any of that discussion. But it's not even relevant in this situation, right? There seems to be plenty of funds to go around the extended family if help was needed. And OP isn't in the UK.


Yes, I know he's not. But some people seem to be confused about why she would say such things; just trying to clear that point up. Anyway, I shall say no more on the subject.


----------



## Livvie

OP was it a joint decision (with your wife) to watch your grandchild every day all day, or just yours?

I love my children, and I really really like babies and toddlers. But in my late 50s early 60s there is no way I'd sign up to watch a baby all day 5 days a week unless it was absolutely necessary.


----------



## Openminded

I retired in my early 50’s so that I could take care of my first grandchild (and then his siblings). Five days a week for many years. Full-time until they began kindergarten, part-time while they were in school, and full-time when they were out of school. Was it exhausting? Absolutely. Did I miss out on a lot of stuff? Certainly. But we all make choices and that was mine. I’ve never regretted it.


----------



## Blondilocks

lj2932 said:


> I don't always agree with everything Diana says but I feel I ought to point out that it is indeed VERY common over here for grandparents to provide childcare purely because the alternatives are extremely expensive. It can easily take an entire salary, especially if you have more than one child. Maybe this is different across the pond.
> 
> Apparently, according to an organisation called AgeUK, 40% of grandparents over 50 in the UK provide regular childcare for their grandchildren.


Well, it is quite irresponsible to have children when one can't afford to raise them. Grandparents won't always be available to take on the burden.

This was not the case for the OP - he wanted to care for the little ones. It could've provided meaning to his life. He is obviously missing something.


----------



## Blondilocks

I don't think anyone is blaming the OP for anything. I do believe 4 years is not necessarily a 'really, really short amount of time'.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

Blondilocks said:


> *Well, it is quite irresponsible to have children when one can't afford to raise them. * Grandparents won't always be available to take on the burden.
> 
> This was not the case for the OP - he wanted to care for the little ones. It could've provided meaning to his life. He is obviously missing something.



Really? 

Will you go on TV and share this nugget with the rest of America, and inform anybody considered a dem or on the left, that this isn't a desired thing?

Better duck.

Btw it wasn't a money issue in this case.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

Blondilocks said:


> Well, it is quite irresponsible to have children when one can't afford to raise them. Grandparents won't always be available to take on the burden.
> 
> This was not the case for the OP - he wanted to care for the little ones. It could've provided meaning to his life. *He is obviously missing something.*


OP got to do something he wanted to do. Good for him!

Why (see bolded) is there an attempt to make it seem a negative in his life??

Truly, I'd like to know. Why do you insist it was a negative?

Christ, you make it sound like he was a pack mule forced into working the mines, and he is mental for wanting to, and is now an emotional invalid as a result of it.


----------



## jlg07

Bob4678 said:


> . My wife changed me to serve her. I do not regret that and would like to do so for the rest of my life. I just do not know how


So, you KNOW you need to have your OWN life also, yes? She has developed hobbies, YOU Need to also. You also need to have hobbies/activities that you like to do together (other than watching TV!)


----------



## Blondilocks

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> OP got to do something he wanted to do. Good for him!
> 
> Why (see bolded) is there an attempt to make it seem a negative in his life??
> 
> Truly, I'd like to know. Why do you insist it was a negative?
> 
> *Christ, you make it sound like he was a pack mule forced into working the mines, and he is mental for wanting to, and is now an emotional invalid as a result of it.
> *




Calm down. I never insinuated any such thing. It's a negative because his wife thinks 4 hours a day is enough together time and he doesn't. He thinks she should get 2 hours a day to herself and devote the rest of the hours to him. He needs something to fill that void.


----------



## Diana7

aine said:


> Sometimes @Diana I think you have led a charmed, sheltered life from the way you make comments. Loneliness is not about not having people around you. It is about whether others are actually 'present' in your life. He just said he wasn't 'present,' he was physically there but not for her. Caring for others is a lifetime job of many women, how much caring was she receiving, it seems very little? Maybe she spent years taking care of others needs not her own and no-one else took care of them either. Just because people are there physically does not mean they are actually 'present' in your life and know anything about what is going on with you. People can be married for 30 years and be very lonely because their spouse is there physically but not 'there' for them and knows nothing about what is happening with them or in their life. This is why many men are shocked when their wives up and leave them, they may have been physically there but did not actually 'see' the wife/spouse, etc. It happens. You seem to have this view that as long as a woman is surrounded by her family then she ought not to be lonely which I find quite insensitive on behalf of those in families where they are never 'seen,' but do all and sundry for everyone (I am not talking about me, but I know one or two.) Are they lonely in their families, hell yes!


I have led anything but a charmed and sheltered life having probably been through more horrible stuff than almost anyone on this forum. So no, you are wrong on that score. 

Most women love to help take care of grandchildren, but if she wasnt happy with the amount of time the small child was with them, she should have talked to her husband and daughter. They are not mind readers after all.


----------



## Diana7

aine said:


> Seriously for so many hours day and day out? I don't know why you are making such comments, the OP stated in HIS own opinion he was "addicted" to his grandchildren and spent too much time with them. I didn't say it.


Yes I have know many grandparents who care for children while their parents work, either full or part time. In the uk its such a struggle for young parents to manage with all the childcare costs and high rents and house prices.


----------



## Diana7

Blondilocks said:


> Well, it is quite irresponsible to have children when one can't afford to raise them. Grandparents won't always be available to take on the burden.
> 
> This was not the case for the OP - he wanted to care for the little ones. It could've provided meaning to his life. He is obviously missing something.


So if you live in a country that has high house prices and rents and the cost of child care is high, no one should have children? People are waiting far later than they used to to have children, but still often struggle to manage. To just declare that they shouldnt have ever have had children is rather c drastic. Many grandparents love to help out anyway, that relationship between grandparents and their grandchildren is so very special. Plus it keeps them young which is a big plus.


----------



## Diana7

Openminded said:


> I retired in my early 50’s so that I could take care of my first grandchild (and then his siblings). Five days a week for many years. Full-time until they began kindergarten, part-time while they were in school, and full-time when they were out of school. Was it exhausting? Absolutely. Did I miss out on a lot of stuff? Certainly. But we all make choices and that was mine. I’ve never regretted it.


And you gain so very much.


----------



## Diana7

lj2932 said:


> I don't always agree with everything Diana says but I feel I ought to point out that it is indeed VERY common over here for grandparents to provide childcare purely because the alternatives are extremely expensive. It can easily take an entire salary, especially if you have more than one child. Maybe this is different across the pond.
> 
> Apparently, according to an organisation called AgeUK, 40% of grandparents over 50 in the UK provide regular childcare for their grandchildren.


Yes, I dont think that people who live in places where the cost of living is so much cheaper, especially housing, really understand. The second wage earner as you said has to earn a very high wage even to make it worthwhile for them to go to work after childcare costs. Living on one wage is near nigh impossible unless one of you earns a very high wage.


----------



## Beach123

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> OP, it's time to put the brakes on the in the past this, why did I, etc etc.
> 
> Same with her and Ws back story.
> 
> To build a future, take an objective look where you, where you both are, today.
> 
> Start from where you're at.
> 
> W will take you for granted, there's no doubt, and if you become a doormat because of your likely perceived guilt, unrealistic view of your guilt, there will be a larger chasm between you two.
> 
> Start with your happy to be with her, conversely she should realize she's fortunate to be with you, too and if she's not showing that then let her do without your care.
> 
> You can't earn her love. Her mindset is what has to rearrange.
> 
> PS hopefully she's not going to AA meetings ongoing.
> 
> As an organization AA is more interested in keeping attendance up than solving a person's problems. And they will indoctrinate her into being more loyal to their cause than to family. That's a fact.
> 
> Other support, healthy support, yes, but not AA.


I respectfully disagree. I’ve personally seen this program help hundreds (first hand nearly 300) of people get recovered. Donations are only voluntary and if donating $2 a meeting is adequate.
The idea is to help others - so if she is recovering well she may choose to spend some time helping others recover as well.

but each person chooses for themself.
This is my experience - I’m in a very large populated area - many meetings - large need for others to help in recovery.
Any extra donations left at the end of any month (after rent and utilities) are donated to outside causes. No leftover money is kept for the group. As a group - they decide where the extra money is sent. Leadership changes on a regular basis so no one stays in any position for very long.


----------



## Openminded

Diana7 said:


> And you gain so very much.


I absolutely did gain a lot. Plus, I have tons of fun memories of those years. And — more important — so do my grandchildren.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

Beach123 said:


> I respectfully disagree. I’ve personally seen this program help hundreds (first hand nearly 300) of people get recovered. Donations are only voluntary and if donating $2 a meeting is adequate.
> The idea is to help others - so if she is recovering well she may choose to spend some time helping others recover as well.
> 
> but each person chooses for themself.
> This is my experience - I’m in a very large populated area - many meetings - large need for others to help in recovery.
> Any extra donations left at the end of any month (after rent and utilities) are donated to outside causes. No leftover money is kept for the group. As a group - they decide where the extra money is sent. Leadership changes on a regular basis so no one stays in any position for very long.


That's ok. We can disagree. My suggestion is anyone looking for support and are considering AA is to read the history, the current information, and research AA and any organization, then choose themselves. 

AA isn't the poster child and is by far and away NOT the productive help most think they are.


----------



## Livvie

Openminded said:


> I absolutely did gain a lot. Plus, I have tons of fun memories of those years. And — more important — so do my grandchildren.


Was your spouse retired at time, as well? Did you talk to your spouse about signing up to do that before you did?


----------



## Openminded

Livvie said:


> Was your spouse retired at time, as well? Did you talk to your spouse about signing up to do that before you did?


No, he never retired. Work was always first with him and that never changed. But, we did discuss it before I started those years and he thought it was a good idea. Turned out he absolutely loved being with them and that was something we were able to enjoy together — given his limited availability due to work demands (and our very dysfunctional marriage).

The OP’s wife may not feel the same way I did and that’s okay. Their marriage is definitely not like mine was. I would feel beyond smothered being with someone 24/7 with no outside interests — I need some space — but if she didn’t feel smothered, and if she wants that again, hopefully that can happen. However, if she likes things the way they are now, then they will have to work that out.


----------



## Beach123

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> That's ok. We can disagree. My suggestion is anyone looking for support and are considering AA is to read the history, the current information, and research AA and any organization, then choose themselves.
> 
> AA isn't the poster child and is by far and away NOT the productive help most think they are.


if done strictly by the book... the odd are VERY high for full recovery - higher than 75%


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

Beach123 said:


> if done strictly by the book... the odd are VERY high for full recovery - higher than 75%


Kindly we disagree. That isn't factual. Good cherry picked marketing wins again.


----------



## Beach123

Well, from my experience the ones who did the work strictly by the book recovered 100%

who markets AA? That’s not the way AA is supposed to work. And that’s not by the book.


----------



## Bob4678

Livvie said:


> OP was it a joint decision (with your wife) to watch your grandchild every day all day, or just yours?
> 
> I love my children, and I really really like babies and toddlers. But in my late 50s early 60s there is no way I'd sign up to watch a baby all day 5 days a week unless it was absolutely necessary.


It was my decision to be with the kids for the extensive periods. Thinking back it is difficult for me because I deserted her for the grandchildren. In hindsight, I would have done things much different.

I just saw my time with them to be my hobby time. Even with 40 hours a week, we had couple time for the other 16 hours weekdays and we were totally off ALL weekends. 

My age was never a factor as far as energy and ability. For some reason, I believe my DNA is that of a carer for children. I believe I did the watching of the kids for my personal benefit and enjoyment more than to give the parents free time.

Thanks for your inpu..


----------



## Bob4678

Openminded said:


> I retired in my early 50’s so that I could take care of my first grandchild (and then his siblings). Five days a week for many years. Full-time until they began kindergarten, part-time while they were in school, and full-time when they were out of school. Was it exhausting? Absolutely. Did I miss out on a lot of stuff? Certainly. But we all make choices and that was mine. I’ve never regretted it.


I enthusiastically applaud you. My grandchildren are a joy and I only have a few more years with them. Soon, they will be in school and the parents will be picking up most challenges that the kids have to go through in school and life. It will be down to, maybe, a couple of hours during the week and very little on weekend because that will be their family time. 

Thanks for your input..


----------



## Livvie

Come on, 40 hours a week M-F is a job, not a hobby.


----------



## Bob4678

jlg07 said:


> So, you KNOW you need to have your OWN life also, yes? She has developed hobbies, YOU Need to also. You also need to have hobbies/activities that you like to do together (other than watching TV!)


Yes, my life right now is my wife, my grandchildren, four hour drives with the wife twice a week, museum visits, reading and televisions. 

I do have one hobby that will be taking up much of my time beginning next week. During the years with the grandkids, I was a constant picture and video taker. I have, literally over ten thousand, one minute videos and thousands of pictures. Plus, I took videos and pictures of all events over 38 years including the first ten birthdays of our daughters. 

We have downloaded all the videos and pictures already and will be scanning in roughly 20,000 photos next week. We are putting everything in the cloud and then, for Christmas, will be providing all interested the ability to see the events, videos, pictures that they were involved in, It is a worthwhile project.

Thanks for your input and question.


----------



## Openminded

Bob4678 said:


> I enthusiastically applaud you. My grandchildren are a joy and I only have a few more years with them. Soon, they will be in school and the parents will be picking up most challenges that the kids have to go through in school and life. It will be down to, maybe, a couple of hours during the week and very little on weekend because that will be their family time.
> 
> Thanks for your input..


Yes, mine did grow up much too quickly. I greatly enjoyed these years with them and wouldn’t trade those memories for anything.


----------



## Openminded

Livvie said:


> Come on, 40 hours a week M-F is a job, not a hobby.


It was definitely a full-time job for me for a number of years. I wouldn’t have the energy to do that now but, thankfully, I can relax at this point since my job’s finally done.


----------



## Bob4678

Blondilocks said:


> It's a negative because his wife thinks 4 hours a day is enough together time and he doesn't. He thinks she should get 2 hours a day to herself and devote the rest of the hours to him. He needs something to fill that void.


Sorry, I must have written the time stuff wrong. My ideal breakdown would be private time from 6-8 a.m., couple time 8-12 a.m., private time from 12-4 p.m., couple time from 4-8 p.m., 8 p.m. - 3 a.m. private time and, finally, 3-6 a.m. cuddling/sleep time/other fun stuff. That would be 13 hours private time, 8 hours couple time and 3 hours cuddling time, etc. Any grandchildren watching would come out of couple time. 

This would be flexible as we move around hours as necessary on circumstances but seems to me that is pretty good for each of us. We are both Navy veterans so we know how to keep a schedule and modify it based on circumstances.

Would appreciate all your thoughts. 

Thanks.


----------



## Bob4678

Diana7 said:


> Most women love to help take care of grandchildren, but if she wasnt happy with the amount of time the small child was with them, she should have talked to her husband and daughter. They are not mind readers after all.


My wife regrets not speaking up. She regrets the lying and alcohol. She did her amends to me and I appreciate her honesty even if it came late. She read the thread this morning and told me that I “let her off the hook” for her transgressions. 

Just wish that I had known earlier.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

It's normal to go through some changes after retirement. Sometimes being together that much has its own problems and makes someone feel they need a little space. And it sounds like she has something she's going through. I really think the best thing would be to get you two into marriage counseling so you can find out what's going on and learn to both take steps to deal with it without hurting each other. It sounds like you need better communication at this point. Good luck.


----------



## Bob4678

Livvie said:


> Come on, 40 hours a week M-F is a job, not a hobby.


Livvie,

I have to heartily disagree. I was doing something that I loved for no pay except hugs and kisses. If I spent 40 hours a week golfing and other hobbies, would they be considered jobs. 

Thanks for your input.


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## Blondilocks

You really can't consider 8-3am private time unless she really is only getting by on 3 hours of sleep. I was going off your previous post wherein you stated 4 hrs for kids, 8 hrs for you, 2 for her and then the sleep & cuddling time of 10 hrs.

You two can work this out with a little compromise.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

40 hours a week is an awful lot with the grandchildren. so she'd probably never want to say so because she loves her kids and the grandkids, she was probably also kind of looking forward to relatively kid-free environment at this age. You know she's raised her kids. Now it's her kids turn to raise their kids.


----------



## Bob4678

DownByTheRiver said:


> 40 hours a week is an awful lot with the grandchildren. so she'd probably never want to say so because she loves her kids and the grandkids, she was probably also kind of looking forward to relatively kid-free environment at this age. You know she's raised her kids. Now it's her kids turn to raise their kids.


We raised our kids with me being the main carer. We had a live in Nanny from the time that they were born until they were three years old. We had it easy, easy, easy. 

Retiring in your thirties has many, many downsides. For instance, we had travelled the world by the time we were 50. We had travelled the country. We indulged in every possible thing that most people don’t begin to do until their sixties. Our bucket list is pretty empty. We have visited every state in the U.S. We have visited the Netherlands, Philippines, Brazil, Germany, New Zealand, Costa Rica, Mexico, Japan, Thailand, Spain, Canada, Hong Kong, Australia to name most of them that I readily remember.

What do you when you get to the end of your bucket list? If hobbies are just to pass the time until you die, what is wrong with the grandchildren being my hobby.

Thanks for your input.


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## gold5932

I would honestly run if my partner had a schedule for our time together. Give the woman a break and find something to occupy your time. And nothing is wrong with watching your grandchildren. Your life, your choice.


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## WandaJ

I have to disagree with most posters. They are representing very American attitude, where everybody for themselves. There is NOTHING wrong in taking care of your grandchild if you want to do it. The opposite -it is quite a norm in most of the world. This should have been discussed with your wife, of course. 
However, your wife is an adult and should have been able to communicate with you that she doesn’t like the situation and is lonely. 

There must be way more to it, why she turned into alcoholism. You do not become alcoholic -particularly at this age just because for three years your spouse cared for your grandchild. Again, if you guys were as close as you THINK you are - she would have raised the issue with you and you would adjust your time with a grandchild. I think her loneliness, or whatever else was brewing in her -had to start way before that. Maybe life of leisure, with no real responsibilities was too hard to handle?


----------



## Livvie

You have changed your tune. You previously said you were obsessed with your grandchild, had no time for your wife so she turned to other things to fill her time, and were so obsessed with your grandchild you didn't even notice her drinking problem.

And yeah, 40 hours a week of golf would be like a full time job, too. I work full time, so I know what that amount of time feels like and how much time is left of the day at the end of it. 40 hours a week fit into M-F of: work, golf, fishing, or watching a child IS a large chunk of time.


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## DownByTheRiver

If you really topped off your bucket list, then you are some mighty lucky people. So now I think maybe it might benefit you and others if you or both of you maybe got into doing some volunteer work helping those less fortunate. It need nit consume all your time. But it sounds like you have a lot to give. It might stimulate both of you because you both feel like you were needed and fortunate and helping people. It would give you purpose. Just think about it. But yeah you've got to improve communications with your wife so you know what's going on there. If you can't get to that point then get a counselor.


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## WandaJ

I still do not understand all that blaming of OP for caring for his granddaughter, while getting the wife off the hook. she DID NOT communicate that she had problem with it. The OP is NOT responsible for her drinking. 

I always hear on TAM that we are responsible for our own happiness, not our spouse. What happened to that idea? 

I do not believe that him taking care of a kid caused her alcoholism. Most of us here on TAM would be dead from
alcohol poisoning if that was so simple.


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## Bob4678

Livvie said:


> You have changed your tune. You previously said you were obsessed with your grandchild, had no time for your wife so she turned to other things to fill her time, and were so obsessed with your grandchild you didn't even notice her drinking problem.


I cannot find where I stated that I did not have time for her during that period. The 40 hours a week left her to find her own pursuits. One was alcohol. We continued to travel during those three years both inside and outside the country. We took vacations as normal and pursued stuff. 

After rehab, we changed course with the grandkids for 2-3 times a week for four hours daily. My wife, then, found solo pursuits and I was left bewildered as to why I had cut down on the grandkids so she could pursue her pursuits all during the day and evening. Seems with no kids here, she planned more solo pursuits.


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## turnera

Since you guys have so much time now, give the book His Needs Her Needs a try. It will explain how a marriage should work. I don't see actual issues, just miscommunication and lack of understanding of how a marriage should work. The book will really help with that. Read it together, one chapter at a time, and discuss how it addresses your marriage, as you go.

And I second the poster who suggested finding some place to volunteer at. You're in a unique position most would die for, so do some good; and volunteering can be really great on a marriage.

btw, I too have been caring for my baby granddaughter, so I get it. The more time you can spend with your grandchildren, the better off for them AND you.


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## Bob4678

turnera said:


> Since you guys have so much time now, give the book His Needs Her Needs a try. It will explain how a marriage should work. I don't see actual issues, just miscommunication and lack of understanding of how a marriage should work. The book will really help with that. Read it together, one chapter at a time, and discuss how it addresses your marriage, as you go.
> 
> And I second the poster who suggested finding some place to volunteer at. You're in a unique position most would die for, so do some good; and volunteering can be really great on a marriage.
> 
> btw, I too have been caring for my baby granddaughter, so I get it. The more time you can spend with your grandchildren, the better off for them AND you.


I have downloaded the book on Audible and will begin in the morning with my wife to listen to it. Thanks for the recommendation. 

Volunteering with Covid and being 66 makes it more difficult to volunteer outside the house. Might need to find some kind of volunteering that can be done at home or on the Internet. Would appreciate any recommendations in what might be available.

We had the grandkids today from 10-2 and it was wonderful. I saw a difference in my wife and she came up to me afterwards and said she wanted me to immediately schedule another overnight with them. So, Wednesday 10-2, Thursday/Friday off and overnight from 3:00 p.m. on Saturday until 10:00 a.m. on Sunday. Great Day Today.

After they left today, I got caught up here and then we talked about this site and she got read up on this thread. This site has assisted us to return to our past where we were in sync communication wise. Up until the grandchildren, we rarely argued and just lived life large. 

Thanks so much for your input.


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## DownByTheRiver

Bob4678 said:


> sems with no kids here, she planned more solo pursuits.


Which only further makes me think that she wanted to pursue some new things and wasn't able to do it because of having the kids around, so now she's doing some things she wanted to do.


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## jlg07

Bob4678 said:


> My wife, then, found solo pursuits and I was left bewildered as to why I had cut down on the grandkids so she could pursue her pursuits all during the day and evening. Seems with no kids here, she planned more solo pursuits.


So, what does she say the reasons are behind her pulling away from you now that you have MORE time and the grandkids aren't taking up so much time? What did she learn/do in counseling in rehab that caused this change of attitude towards you?


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## turnera

I would be willing to bet that there are tons of opportunities to volunteer to tutor kids over the internet these days. Help them learn how to read better, do math, talk about science, just bond with them. Check with the local school district (the one that's not rich, could use some help). Or maybe try Big Brothers/Big Sisters online. 

She was on Price Is Right? So cool! IIWY, I would be bragging to all her friends and family on Facebook about it.


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## Bob4678

jlg07 said:


> So, what does she say the reasons are behind her pulling away from you now that you have MORE time and the grandkids aren't taking up so much time? What did she learn/do in counseling in rehab that caused this change of attitude towards you?


Right now, she only says the frustrating, “I don’t know.” No idea if this applies in any way but she told me that she was put in charge of others in rehab as the older woman who could give good advice and be looked up to. She came back with confidence of being, as she stated, “Head ***** in Charge.“.

On a side note, she did not go through the detoxication that one goes through. She entered rehab with no alcohol in her system and had not drank for the 10 days before entering. They were surprised. We were all so proud of her. 

Thanks for your input and questions.


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## turnera

Something to remember is that ALL people, in every circumstance, have something in common: We all want to be admired. It's human nature, we can't be helped. She felt liked, needed, empowered, by being the person respected in her group. What's a great way to duplicate that? Volunteer.


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## Bob4678

turnera said:


> I would be willing to bet that there are tons of opportunities to volunteer to tutor kids over the internet these days. Help them learn how to read better, do math, talk about science, just bond with them. Check with the local school district (the one that's not rich, could use some help). Or maybe try Big Brothers/Big Sisters online.
> 
> She was on Price Is Right? So cool! IIWY, I would be bragging to all her friends and family on Facebook about it.


i love the idea of tutoring kids on the Internet. Thanks. 

Price of Right was so great. She was masterful. We had to keep the secret from everyone until the airing and everyone watched it live. Her 92 year old Mom was so happy and proud of her. It made Mom a celebrity at her nursing home. 

Thanks.


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## WandaJ

I love it that you let your wife read this thread. If you guys can share this, you will make it.
Good luck!


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## Beach123

Why don’t you also consider taking up a new artistic hobby you can do at home? Perhaps silversmithing or some painting? You could paint some of your favorite photos you’ve taken over the years.


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## Bob4678

Beach123 said:


> Why don’t you also consider taking up a new artistic hobby you can do at home? Perhaps silversmithing or some painting? You could paint some of your favorite photos you’ve taken over the years.


Excellent ideas. Tomorrow, I will paint with my wife. A beginning.

Thanks.


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## sunsetmist

Volunteering in situations where few people are involved like animal shelters might be interesting. Painting is a great idea, but there are a lot of kinds--do some research before you buy supplies or maybe take an online course. Acrylic pouring is currently hot and can be learned progressively on YouTube. 

I have contacts in Coronado. There are many Navy related groups--but don't know how COVID has affected them. Do you have any church or group affiliation? Maybe even use yourselves as financial consultants, travel advisors, or marriage advisors. All sorts of online opportunities out there--even landscaping. Hey Ms. Bob4678.


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## sunsetmist

IMO: family history and fairly heavy drinking by Navy cohorts may have eased wife's way into turning to alcohol. Her self-discipline is remarkable. 

I love your devotion to family--a great legacy. You might also find interest in online courses related to travel or even grandparent-grandchild relationships. Maybe together write books.


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## Divinely Favored

aine said:


> Sometimes @Diana I think you have led a charmed, sheltered life from the way you make comments. Loneliness is not about not having people around you. It is about whether others are actually 'present' in your life. He just said he wasn't 'present,' he was physically there but not for her. Caring for others is a lifetime job of many women, how much caring was she receiving, it seems very little? Maybe she spent years taking care of others needs not her own and no-one else took care of them either. Just because people are there physically does not mean they are actually 'present' in your life and know anything about what is going on with you. People can be married for 30 years and be very lonely because their spouse is there physically but not 'there' for them and knows nothing about what is happening with them or in their life. This is why many men are shocked when their wives up and leave them, they may have been physically there but did not actually 'see' the wife/spouse, etc. It happens. You seem to have this view that as long as a woman is surrounded by her family then she ought not to be lonely which I find quite insensitive on behalf of those in families where they are never 'seen,' but do all and sundry for everyone (I am not talking about me, but I know one or two.) Are they lonely in their families, hell yes!


Haven't seen it this way before, it's usually the women who have children and put their all into the kids and forget they have a husband...when the kids are grown and out so is the forgotten husband who was ignored and alone.


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## EveningThoughts

Bob4678 said:


> I have answered the questions in the quote. Thanks. Very thought provoking.


There seems to be a lot of emphasis on you looking after the grandchildren and your wife not being as on board with the idea back then.

But, in your reply to my question, you state that the drinking started before the grandchildren.
In fact it sounded more like the move to live nearer your daughter, was a big event, and that may have contributed to the start of the drinking.

Once your wife was drinking, she wouldn't be as into the grandchildren, and would probably try to escape from their demands, and into her own thoughts and feelings.

You have now seen, that your wife when sober, is connecting with them more.

You spending so much time with them back then,might have added to her internal distress, whatever it was/is. But I don't think it is the original cause. Something was amiss already.


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## WandaJ

EveningThoughts said:


> You spending so much time with them back then,might have added to her internal distress, whatever it was/is. But I don't think it is the original cause. Something was amiss already.


My point exactly!


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## Rowan

As someone upthread mentioned, it's far too often men who get pushed aside by their wives during the child-rearing years. The wife is so wrapped up in doing things with and for the children, putting their needs ahead of everything else, that there's really no room for the husband - or the couple. By the time the kids are grown and gone, the marriage has been neglected for years. She's been so busy being Mom that she forgot to be Wife and Girlfriend and Lover to her husband. 

In this case, it's the wife who was pushed aside as the husband poured everything into caring for the grandchildren. And she probably felt neglected, lonely, and forgotten. He was so focused on being Grandpa that he forgot to be Husband and Lover and Friend to his wife. 

Neither one is okay. And both can be deadly to a marriage. 

Which is why the new insistence on a certain amount of time together may just seem jarring. And a bit tone-deaf. OP, you set the tone for how much alone time your wife should expect in your marriage during the years you were caring full-time for the grandchildren. You've stopped doing that full time, so you expect her to step-to with the increased couple time you're now prepared to allot to her. It is unreasonable to expect that you can ignore someone for years and then have them ask "How high?" when you suddenly turn back to them and shout "Jump!" Which is why your current requests for more couples time may feel less, to her, like a loving relationship ask and more like another helping of thoughtlessness

(By the way, OP, that was the most peculiarly regimented schedule I think I've ever heard. It's clear that you've thought a bit about how your - and your wife's - time "should" be arranged every day. One wonders if there's a timer or bell somewhere to signal change of watch for each new activity. Does your wife get equal say in the level of structure in your day? Is she okay with it, or does it not actually work for her even though you think it should?) 

Do get the book _His Needs, Her Needs_ by Willard Harley. You both need to see what a healthy marriage looks like. But, I also _strongly_ recommend his other book, titled _Lovebusters_. There may be things that you're both doing that are draining the love from your marriage.


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## Bob4678

EveningThoughts said:


> But, in your reply to my question, you state that the drinking started before the grandchildren.
> In fact it sounded more like the move to live nearer your daughter, was a big event, and that may have contributed to the start of the drinking.
> 
> Once your wife was drinking, she wouldn't be as into the grandchildren, and would probably try to escape from their demands, and into her own thoughts and feelings.
> 
> You have now seen, that your wife when sober, is connecting with them more.


We moved to within .08 miles from the grandkids a few years ago. We had lived where we were since 1/2000. It was the house that we raised our kids in for their 5th through 12th grade and into their college years. But, we were not involved with the community that at all as that was our traveling years and it was hard to find like couples if our age. We did use the clubhouse, spa and exercise room a lot during those years.

i do remember her mentioning to me when she made her amends that she thought she resented me for the move. She was not able to articulate why. This house is in a much better area in regards to privacy, traffic, safety and became worse after we left because they put in a major restaurant a few years after we left two blocks from the house. 

She indicated her drinking of beer started being heavy after we moved. Granddaughter came around about 14 months later. She believes that she started drinking straight vodka shortly after she was born. She used vodka because she could slip out the side door, drink a bottle of vodka and head up stairs without me knowing. When I mentioned alcohol smell a couple of times, she would blame it on mouthwash. She went to rehab in Sept 2019, about three years later.

Did the resentment and beer lead into vodka? Did she have a premonition of what was to unfold and knew of the upcoming problems? Was she aware that we would need to curtail our traveling due to grandkid? Btw, we didn’t curtail.

We are going for our four hour drive this morning and will be taking this thread with us to discuss.

Thanks for your continued input. We are in a much better place than we were just two days ago.


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## Bob4678

Rowan said:


> .
> In this case, it's the wife who was pushed aside as the husband poured everything into caring for the grandchildren. And she probably felt neglected, lonely, and forgotten. He was so focused on being Grandpa that he forgot to be Husband and Lover and Friend to his wife.
> 
> Do get the book _His Needs, Her Needs_ by Willard Harley. You both need to see what a healthy marriage looks like. But, I also _strongly_ recommend his other book, titled _Lovebusters_. There may be things that you're both doing that are draining the love from your marriage.


i deserted her and she fell into vodka. I do believe that it was my doing as she has never drank vodka or any hard liquor. Her social drinking for 35ish years was beer and wine. I cannot believe that I missed three years of drinking. I was blind. 

The last three posts have been excellent as they seemed to have encapsulated the why. We will be discussing the thread on our drive today.

The schedule of time is something that we have been working on since her return from rehab. Maybe, I was too controlling. Each morning, I would plan the day for her to do her exercise followed by bath followed by private time and couple time. I would ask her in the morning about drives, together time or private time and she would advise what she preferred. We would go with that and, many days, I would be left watching movies or being on the Internet. The time apart grew as her pursuits grew. This probably caused unconscious resentment in me and around we go. 

Thanks so much.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

Just remember, every problem isn't just one person's fault, perhaps be aware you may want to assume too much fault here.

Good luck!


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## Bob4678

Wife is now update on reading the thread. She requested that I say hi to you all and send her thanks. Me too. Off for our drive.


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## Openminded

Hi to Wife!!

We’re here to help. If you would like to join and talk to us directly, we’d love to talk to you. If not, we’re always interested in your thoughts regardless of how we get them (we rarely get both sides of a story).

Many threads here deal with infidelity but some are just about missteps in a marriage and getting back on track. I recommend sticking around and posting on other threads. I look at TAM as my version of volunteering 😉.


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## Blondilocks

OP, please go through your thread and delete every reference that can identify you and your wife for anonymity purposes. Luckily for you, I'm on my meds today so won't be making that 20-25 minute drive to your front door. Seriously, you never know what some deranged person will do with your private data.

Are you talking about Phil's B'BQ?


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## Bob4678

Yes. Thanks for the recommendation. I have edited the info and will go through each post again to make sure.


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## Elizabeth001

Blondilocks said:


> OP, please go through your thread and delete every reference that can identify you and your wife for anonymity purposes. Luckily for you, I'm on my meds today so won't be making that 20-25 minute drive to your front door. Seriously, you never know what some deranged person will do with your private data.
> 
> Are you talking about Phil's B'BQ?


I couldn’t find the Price is Right video anyways 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## aine

Diana7 said:


> So if you live in a country that has high house prices and rents and the cost of child care is high, no one should have children? People are waiting far later than they used to to have children, but still often struggle to manage. To just declare that they shouldnt have ever have had children is rather c drastic. Many grandparents love to help out anyway, that relationship between grandparents and their grandchildren is so very special. Plus it keeps them young which is a big plus.


An interesting question and one that no doubt people will use the human rights violation argument for. IMO if you can not afford kids you should not have them and then expect the state, your parents etc to take care of them. I would like to have at least 4 kids but could not afford to educate so many so stopped at 2. We live in a country with no welfare system. You don’t work, you starve, simple. So we worked to give our 2 kids a good start in life. i know someone who had 6 kids from 2 fathers and is struggling to take care of them. I’m sorry I have no sympathy for that. One must take responsibility for ones actions and decisions and not expect others to take up the slack for your decisions.


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## aine

gold5932 said:


> I would honestly run if my partner had a schedule for our time together. Give the woman a break and find something to occupy your time. And nothing is wrong with watching your grandchildren. Your life, your choice.


I agree with this, so regimented, like fitting in the most important person into a schedule. maybe it’s a Navy thing. Why should she be available according to YOUR schedule? What about her schedule and needs? If you give 2 hrs per day that is only 14 per week, the bare minimum according to some marriage gurus. When would she and you sleep? 
I think there is a deeper problem here. I also note that you are looking for solutions but basically disagree ( in a nice way) with anything people say here.
Are you usually this regimental with everything, people cannot be fitted into a box, are you really this intense, maybe that’s the problem.


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## iwanttoknow

THe first thing I would want to hear about is what kind of conversations you've had with your wife about this. Have you acknowledged to her that didn't realize how much energy you had diverted from your relationship? Have you apologized for it? Have you asked her exactly how that wounded her, and exactly what she needs from you to heal that wound? I presume that she still loves you, because why would she stay. But asking her for specific and intentional information about how you can fit into her now new life would be a great start. The most courageous thing we can do is ask for what we need. The 2nd is asking others what they need from us.


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## Bob4678

It is hard to come back to this thread after the last week. 

For those who complained about the regimen, you were right. I abandoned that last week.

For those that saw value in my wife and me reading the book about marriage, no interest on her part.

For those who, basically, told me to get a life. I will move forward to the best of my ability during Covid-19.

End result right now is we are like “ships passing in the night” for all but three hours of cuddling time in the morning and when our grandkids come to visit. That is about 2 - 3 times a week for four hours and, maybe, a stay over from 3:00 p.m. to 10:00 a.m. which we did this past Saturday. I am thankful for my time with her as she has my heart.

I find these sayings comforting: “It is what it is”, “Take it hour by hour, day by day”, “This too will pass”, “Be all that you can be”, and “Don’t worry, be happy.”

I, daily and more, find comfort in praying the Serenity Prayer, The Lord’s Prayer and The Lord is My Shepherd, Psalm 23.

I am in pain.

Thank you ALL for your input and help. It has helped to a point and, also, hurt to a point. Not by your thoughts but by the clarity with which I have learned things about myself. Very enlightening input.

Thanks again for your input.


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## aine

@Bob4678, sorry that you are in pain. When did you realize that your wife has slipped away from you? Sometimes when a heart is broken, it is difficult to mend or trust again. The fact that she is still there with you in the same house says alot. You have opened up here to a group of strangers. Have you sat her down and shared what is on your heart with her? Hear what she has to say, (without judgement) see how it can be fixed. Love is action, sometimes dying embers can be rekindled. Most likely if she felt you neglecting her over a period of time, she is not going to open up her heart so quickly to you, she is hurting too, so she will refuse to read books, refuse counselling, etc. But she will most likely listen to what you have to say.


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