# Husband vs Wife: What sex deprivation means...



## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

Great quote from Dr. Laura Schlessinger in her book _The Proper Care And Feeding of Husbands_, a statement by a listener to her radio show:

"_Sex is to a husband what conversation is to a wife. When a wife deprives her husband of sex for days, even weeks on end, it is tantamount to his refusing to talk to her for days, even weeks. Think of it that way, wives, and realize what a deleterious impact enforced sexual abstinence has on a good man who is determined to remain faithful_."

And another:

"_Men are simple creatures who come from a woman, are nurtured and brought up by a woman, and yearn for the continued love, admiration and approval of a woman. . . Women need to better appreciate the magnitude of their power and influence over men, and not misuse or abuse it_."

What is ironic is that many men, especially the ones who take their marriage vows seriously, want respect perhaps more than love or do not feel loved if they are not respect. One sure way for a wife to show disrespect for her husband is enforced sexual abstinence. It's not the only way, but it's one terrible passive aggressive way to do so.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

This only tells what sex deprivation means to the husband. What does it refer to for the wife's side of sex deprivation?


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## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

ScarletBegonias said:


> This only tells what sex deprivation means to the husband. What does it refer to for the wife's side of sex deprivation?


A fair question and only one I can answer from a faithful male's perspective. For me, it means I have given up. It means she doesn't have to tell me she does not respect me.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

Whenever <insert ANYTHING> is important to a partner and their SO doesn't make sure it is covered, that person is asking for trouble.

In time, marriage falls apart.


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

Well,

Any easy fix to this... Have some!


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## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

Q tip said:


> Well,
> 
> Any easy fix to this... Have some!


That would be the easy fix, but usually not an option if your partner is intentionally depriving you or if it has been so long that it's no longer an option.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

For a woman that wants sex, deprivation is soul crushing. We're always told that men want sex, so for a woman whose man doesn't want sex it means he doesn't want it with her and she has no value. Remember that in many ways society tells women that most of their value is in their looks and sex appeal, so what does it say about your value as a woman if a man, who's supposed to want sex, just doesn't want it with you? At least men are taught that they have other value.

And equating lack of sex with respect relegates it to duty sex, which so many men complain they don't want. Which I get because I don't want it either. Desire is more complicated than that. Lack of respect can certainly suppress desire but respect doesn't necessarily create it.

In an ideal world, couples would work together so everyone is happy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Many otherwise loving women don't realize that sex=love for men. It really isn't willful meaness it mainly ignorance. I didn't know and I love and care about my husbands feelings very much. I thought he was like a women with a penis. I read about how men love in a relationship book. The first thing I thought was "why would he think that". I read more books. 

The book that helped pull it all together was 5 Love languages. I realized something about my huband that I already knew. My children taught me, they are so different. He, like other people , has needs that are unique to him. Showing love is means meeting the other persons needs to the best of your ability, whatever they are. It's hard to see reality through another persons eyes, though. I don't know any way to change that except by learning it and believing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> Many otherwise loving women don't realize that sex=love for men. It really isn't willful meaness it mainly ignorance. I didn't know and I love and care about my husbands feelings very much. I thought he was like a women with a penis. I read it in a relationship book. The first thing I thought was "why would he think that". I read more books.
> 
> The one that help to pull it all together was 5 Love languages. I realized something about my huband that I already knew. My children taught me because they are so different. He, like other people , have needs that are unique to him. Showing love is meeting their needs to the best as can possible, whatever they are. It's hard to see reality through another persons eyes, though. I don't know any way to change that except by learning it and believing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Are women that clueless really seems like that should be pretty common knowledge based on the response men give when withheld from. I think many women don't care and if they don't want to have sex ....so be it


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Are men and women that clueless really seems like that should be pretty common knowledge based on the response men and women give when needs are withheld from each other. I think many men and women don't care and if they don't want to meet each others needs....so be it


FIFU

Why assume that it isn't true? What good does it do. You don't want to find a solution maybe. You can operate on the assumption that it is true and try things to overcome it. It certainly won't hurt. It's not true for all woman. But if a wife genuinely loves her husband and is clueless she may respond like me. 

T2FIO - it is painful to read your posts. I usually don't. Not because I don't care but because I do. You have been here on TAM for a long time, as have I. It's like seeing a friend in trouble who refuses to change. 

I hope so much that you will see the light and get off the pain train. I don't know what to say. You are getting something out of staying where you are, I think. Its my hope that you will finally not need whatever it is and just stop. If its lack of faith that you can do better then read the posts in the LAD section.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Are women that clueless really seems like that should be pretty common knowledge based on the response men give when withheld from. I think many women don't care and if they don't want to have sex ....so be it


And this is exactly why I find you to me misogynistic. Women bad, men poor victim. Men must be catered to and all sexual needs must be met before anyone can even consider asking them to behave like adults. Based on the tone of your posts it seems this attitude isn't working so well for you. 

But maybe you're not mysogynistic as much as a victim. Victim mentality never helped anyone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

I don't really like Dr. Laura and I think that statement is a little insulting to both men and women, and so is her book title. A lot of what she says comes off to me as angry under the surface.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Are women that clueless really seems like that should be pretty common knowledge based on the response men give when withheld from.


Yes, lots of us grew up being told that guys will always be trying to get into our pants, and we should beat them off with a stick because "good girls don't." Thus, we learned that sex does not equal love for men. We're taught guys want it whether they love you or not, and they're not necessarily seeking love when they seek sex, so keep your legs closed lest you be considered a sl*t. That lesson was reinforced in high school, college, and early adulthood by much of what we saw around us or experienced ourselves - men have lots and lots of sex without love. 

No one taught us that sex = love for men or that they sometimes have sex because they like how it feels, and sometimes it's how they give and receive love, and sometimes it's both. So, no, it's not obvious to every woman that sex = love for men. I'm still not sure that sex = love for all men, as a universal truth. And it means a lot of other things, too, not just love. 

And no, all men aren't always clear that sex = love to them. It's not clear since often the conversation centers around sex, more sex, different sex, sex, sex, sex. They talk about needing sex, not love. 

Those that can and do show their partner, or are able to articulate that sex = love, are more likely to get through to their partner so that the relationship issues can be addressed. If that doesn't work, it's time to go. 



> I think many women don't care and if they don't want to have sex ....so be it


If by "don't care" you mean "have the right as a human to choose if she has sex," then I agree.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

wanttolove said:


> A fair question and only one I can answer from a faithful male's perspective. For me, it means I have given up. It means she doesn't have to tell me she does not respect me.


:scratchhead:

I think that SB as talking about what sex deprivation means to a woman when it's her husband who is refusing her sex.

I take your response to mean that if a man deprives his wife of sex it's because she does not respect him?????


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

norajane said:


> Yes, lots of us grew up being told that guys will always be trying to get into our pants, and we should beat them off with a stick because "good girls don't." Thus, we learned that sex does not equal love for men. We're taught guys want it whether they love you or not, and they're not necessarily seeking love when they seek sex, so keep your legs closed lest you be considered a sl*t. That lesson was reinforced in high school, college, and early adulthood by much of what we saw around us or experienced ourselves - men have lots and lots of sex without love.
> 
> No one taught us that sex = love for men or that they sometimes have sex because they like how it feels, and sometimes it's how they give and receive love, and sometimes it's both. So, no, it's not obvious to every woman that sex = love for men. I'm still not sure that sex = love for all men, as a universal truth. And it means a lot of other things, too, not just love.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the thought out answer I appreciate it....

So do you think men like talk or other for love more?

Curious what other metric do men equate love with....

Here I will give you another respect...respect for his "needs" respect for killing rats or changing the oil or paying the bills etc or going to work everyday and still helping

Its not rocket science its all over...Men like sex and seek wives for sex because they thought they had a willing always there spouse who loved or at the very least liked him....they DID NOT marry NOT to have sex.

Is that so hard for all women to understand?

Sex and respect are two biggies..not acts of service or whatever women list men are very different.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Tell it to your wife and get off this endless rant!


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## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> :scratchhead:
> 
> I think that SB as talking about what sex deprivation means to a woman when it's her husband who is refusing her sex.
> 
> I take your response to mean that if a man deprives his wife of sex it's because she does not respect him?????


I understand what SB is asking, but I am a man. I can not answer the question of what sex deprivation means to a woman.

No, I am not saying a man deprives his wife of sex because she does not respect him. I am saying that a wife is communicating that she does not respect her husband by depriving him of not only sex, but affection. To a man, actions speak a whole lot more than words. And every man needs respect, knows that as a husband that should allow him at least some form of respect. After a while, the man simply gives up. Believe me, I know.

Reminds me of a Tom Petty song called "You're So Bad"!!


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## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

clipclop2 said:


> Tell it to your wife and get off this endless rant!


Who are you talking to and why are you angry?:scratchhead:


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

wanttolove said:


> I understand what SB is asking, but I am a man. I can not answer the question of what sex deprivation means to a woman.
> 
> No, I am not saying a man deprives his wife of sex because she does not respect him. I am saying that a wife is communicating that she does not respect her husband by depriving him of not only sex, but affection. To a man, actions speak a whole lot more than words. And every man needs respect, knows that as a husband that should allow him at least some form of respect. After a while, the man simply gives up. Believe me, I know.!


Your thread post makes it sound like you wanted to discuss how it affects both men and women when they are deprived.

Are you saying that love is not all that important to men?

Women need love, respect, affection, and intimacy. For a woman, being deprived of sex deprives her of all that. So it's pretty much the same for women who are sexually deprived by their husbands.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

wanttolove said:


> Great quote from Dr. Laura Schlessinger in her book _The Proper Care And Feeding of Husbands_, a statement by a listener to her radio show:
> 
> "_Sex is to a husband what conversation is to a wife. When a wife deprives her husband of sex for days, even weeks on end, it is tantamount to his refusing to talk to her for days, even weeks. Think of it that way, wives, and realize what a deleterious impact enforced sexual abstinence has on a good man who is determined to remain faithful_."
> 
> ...



I remember Dr. Laura. She was awesome and I listened to her daily. But then they took her off the air or you have to pay a subscription fee, etc. Maybe that has changed again?

Agreed. When the ladies withhold sex for whatever reasons, nothing good comes of this at all......doesn't take me long, one week before I start withholding attention and talking with Mrs.CuddleBug. If my needs aren't being taken care of, hers won't be either. I don't deny her attention, listening and support, so she should never deny me what I need, sexual intimacy and physical attention, yet she does, doesn't realize it or see it as a big issue.

A guy can only go so long being faithful to his wifee with little sex. She sets the stage for him to be weak and stray.

This happened with former friends of ours. She only wanted sex 1x week or less and he is HD and needed it almost daily. Over years, he relived himself and to porn and this didn't get her wondering, maybe I should take care of his needs more. So he eventually had oral sex with her female friends and sex with another married woman. She eventually found out. Divorce and then she married some guy that's much older than she is, maybe 15+ years older.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> :scratchhead:
> 
> I think that SB as talking about what sex deprivation means to a woman when it's her husband who is refusing her sex.
> 
> I take your response to mean that if a man deprives his wife of sex it's because she does not respect him?????





wanttolove said:


> I understand what SB is asking, but I am a man. I can not answer the question of what sex deprivation means to a woman.
> 
> No, I am not saying a man deprives his wife of sex because she does not respect him. I am saying that a wife is communicating that she does not respect her husband by depriving him of not only sex, but affection. To a man, actions speak a whole lot more than words. And every man needs respect, knows that as a husband that should allow him at least some form of respect. After a while, the man simply gives up. Believe me, I know.
> 
> Reminds me of a Tom Petty song called "You're So Bad"!!


I took the title of your post to mean we'd be discussing what it means to both sexes to be deprived of sex. That's why I was a little confused when I read the excerpts and realized it was only about the male view of sex deprivation. 

I know as a woman,when my man turns me down or says he isn't in the mood it cuts right to the bone for me. I don't take it as disrespect though bc I don't feel I'm entitled to have his body whenever I want. I feel privileged and loved when he shares himself with me. I feel disappointed when he isn't in the mood but I never feel disrespected. Respect to me is way deeper than our sexual relationship. Respect was there before the sex happened. If he wasn't in the mood because he was beating it on the side or getting sex on the side...then I'd feel disrespected. But if he's not in the mood simply bc his drive is a bit lower than mine I turn up my level up respect by appreciating his feelings on those days and not pushing him. 
I think the most important responsibility of an LD person is to at least give your spouse the chance to change your mind on any given day. At least give them a moment to try to put you in a sexier state of mind so you're more receptive to the possibility of sex. The most important responsibility of an HD person is to understand how difficult it is for an LD to switch themselves to that sexy state of mind and appreciate their efforts.


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## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Your thread post makes it sound like you wanted to discuss how it affects both men and women when they are deprived.
> 
> Are you saying that love is not all that important to men?
> 
> Women need love, respect, affection, and intimacy. For a woman, being deprived of sex deprives her of all that. So it's pretty much the same for women who are sexually deprived by their husbands.


You are right that I made an error when I named this thread. It should read "What sex deprivation means to a husband". I apologize for that error.

Love is important to men. To me, and I can not speak for all men, but sex is not desirable to me unless it is accompanied by affection and even adoration. I think love is necessary for that to be genuine. I love my wife, but the pain from deprivation goes so deep that I will never be over it. Add devotion and commitment to that and it becomes a real problem. I have to go to places like this to talk about it in an attempt to cope!


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## Adeline (Jan 24, 2014)

it is totally the opposite for me.


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## extremneed (May 26, 2014)

ScarletBegonias said:


> This only tells what sex deprivation means to the husband. What does it refer to for the wife's side of sex deprivation?


My side was a control issue. I just wanted every ones life to be stable. Now its any thing but stable, my husband stopped the refusal last year by forcing me to have sex, people that have deprived him of rights are now in mortal terror, including his own father. He does not think twice when someone hits him, his retaliation ensures they never try again. Several men over the last 14 years are emotionally, physically, and mentally damaged after my husband enforced his rights. 
I wont refuse my husband any longer. It is fearful what he will do if I do. He says that the street is out front and if I ever don't want to be a real wife again I could put my feet on it and pick a direction.
He caused his father to have a badly bruised face after he told, one of his fathers guest to take his arm off mine when I was to go with the man for after dinner drinks. He caused him to run for his life. His father broke two fingers on his face when he told his son he was taking no more rudeness or lip. My husband returned the slap with a backhand across the kitchen and a list of what was acceptable from his father. I received a list as to what I was expected as a wife if I stay. I was taught that there was a level of acceptable behaivior that even when there were rights stepped on you did not hurt others in the protection of those rights, you accepted what happened and moved on. My husband wont move on, He will be violent in his defense of his rights. He knows there are not many that even crippled could prevent his keeping his rights now. 
I am sorry for my roll in what we did to or for my husband, But he has to forgive and forget, past wrongs are not an indicator of future wrongs.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

extremneed said:


> My side was a control issue. I just wanted every ones life to be stable. Now its any thing but stable, my husband stopped the refusal last year by forcing me to have sex, people that have deprived him of rights are now in mortal terror, including his own father. He does not think twice when someone hits him, his retaliation ensures they never try again. Several men over the last 14 years are emotionally, physically, and mentally damaged after my husband enforced his rights.
> I wont refuse my husband any longer. It is fearful what he will do if I do. He says that the street is out front and if I ever don't want to be a real wife again I could put my feet on it and pick a direction.
> He caused his father to have a badly bruised face after he told, one of his fathers guest to take his arm off mine when I was to go with the man for after dinner drinks. He caused him to run for his life. His father broke two fingers on his face when he told his son he was taking no more rudeness or lip. My husband returned the slap with a backhand across the kitchen and a list of what was acceptable from his father. I received a list as to what I was expected as a wife if I stay. I was taught that there was a level of acceptable behaivior that even when there were rights stepped on you did not hurt others in the protection of those rights, you accepted what happened and moved on. My husband wont move on, He will be violent in his defense of his rights. He knows there are not many that even crippled could prevent his keeping his rights now.
> I am sorry for my roll in what we did to or for my husband, But he has to forgive and forget, past wrongs are not an indicator of future wrongs.


What? Am I reading this correctly? Your husband is going to end up arrested for assault and worse. I'm surprised he isn't in jail already if he's been violent like that for 14 years.

Why do you stay with him?


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## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

ScarletBegonias said:


> I took the title of your post to mean we'd be discussing what it means to both sexes to be deprived of sex. That's why I was a little confused when I read the excerpts and realized it was only about the male view of sex deprivation.
> 
> I know as a woman,when my man turns me down or says he isn't in the mood it cuts right to the bone for me. I don't take it as disrespect though bc I don't feel I'm entitled to have his body whenever I want. I feel privileged and loved when he shares himself with me. I feel disappointed when he isn't in the mood but I never feel disrespected. Respect to me is way deeper than our sexual relationship. Respect was there before the sex happened. If he wasn't in the mood because he was beating it on the side or getting sex on the side...then I'd feel disrespected. But if he's not in the mood simply bc his drive is a bit lower than mine I turn up my level up respect by appreciating his feelings on those days and not pushing him.
> I think the most important responsibility of an LD person is to at least give your spouse the chance to change your mind on any given day. At least give them a moment to try to put you in a sexier state of mind so you're more receptive to the possibility of sex. The most important responsibility of an HD person is to understand how difficult it is for an LD to switch themselves to that sexy state of mind and appreciate their efforts.


I need to quote your entire response because, well, it's worth responding to all of it. What you say is clear and well said, something I understand mostly from prior relationships and long ago! My girlfriend prior to my wife was HD, always ready and very adventurous as a result. I hate that I have my previous GF to compare to my wife, one reason why I think it's good to wait until marriage (and I know there are a lot of people that are going to laugh at me for that). My wife was the opposite, although I would never have called her LD prior to the shutdown, but she was almost always too uptight when it came to sex. 

That said, I would always choose affection over sex, especially now that the drought has been so long. Is that strange?


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## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

extremneed said:


> My side was a control issue. I just wanted every ones life to be stable. Now its any thing but stable, my husband stopped the refusal last year by forcing me to have sex, people that have deprived him of rights are now in mortal terror, including his own father. He does not think twice when someone hits him, his retaliation ensures they never try again. Several men over the last 14 years are emotionally, physically, and mentally damaged after my husband enforced his rights.
> I wont refuse my husband any longer. It is fearful what he will do if I do. He says that the street is out front and if I ever don't want to be a real wife again I could put my feet on it and pick a direction.
> He caused his father to have a badly bruised face after he told, one of his fathers guest to take his arm off mine when I was to go with the man for after dinner drinks. He caused him to run for his life. His father broke two fingers on his face when he told his son he was taking no more rudeness or lip. My husband returned the slap with a backhand across the kitchen and a list of what was acceptable from his father. I received a list as to what I was expected as a wife if I stay. I was taught that there was a level of acceptable behaivior that even when there were rights stepped on you did not hurt others in the protection of those rights, you accepted what happened and moved on. My husband wont move on, He will be violent in his defense of his rights. He knows there are not many that even crippled could prevent his keeping his rights now.
> I am sorry for my roll in what we did to or for my husband, But he has to forgive and forget, past wrongs are not an indicator of future wrongs.


This makes me very, very sad! I am afraid to say anything else.


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## extremneed (May 26, 2014)

norajane said:


> What? Am I reading this correctly? Your husband is going to end up arrested for assault and worse. I'm surprised he isn't in jail already if he's been violent like that for 14 years.
> 
> Why do you stay with him?


He was forced within two weeks after he came back from the military to get a guardianship due to me being bi polar, He never attacks first, He just insults and drives people into attacking him, he attained a 3rd dan black belt, he is air born air assault trained, he is qualified Submarines as well as Explosive ordinance disposal and radiation control, as well as Nuclear weapons security and technician. Every time he has hurt someone they attacked first, The first time I witnessed his savagery several men surrounded him to get him to take his name off a job bid, He refused, they thought he needed a lesson taught. 45 seconds latter one mans eye sockets were shattered, another hit in the street hard enough to break an arm and both legs The one that put his arm around my husbands throat nearly had it torn off, and the fourth was hit by a straight punch to the ribs causing two to drive into his lungs, His father said all he had to do was back down, my husband said no more, the next was a man he caught me in an affair with, He started it by trying to humiliate my crippled husband, He put my husband on the floor hard and called him pathetic, He left with a fractured scull, broken ribs. a broken nose and jaw as well as a dislocated shoulder and knee. my husband was sent to a stress center for anger management, Two weeks latter I was supposed to go to a political dinner with a friend of his fathers, He came home a day earlier than expected, That was when he forced me to have sex, he said for thirty one years I have put a roof over your head, I have put the food on your table, The cloths on your back, The furniture and nice things you have, You owe me 31 years, The guy you are waiting for can come second, when he showed up my husband said I was indisposed, and he tried to force his way in, My husband threw him over the porch rail into a cement drive way face first. His mother came and talked to me about what happened, She said you had to know it was a matter of time. I realized she was right, My husband will no longer brook any form of interference, He says the street is there, grab your bags, put your feet on it and pick a direction. There were two officers that saw what happened in our house between him and his father, They said his father earned what he got, as far as making the other man run for his life there wasn't anyone there that blamed my husband except his father, there have been threats about drugging my husband and stranding him 30 miles away to keep him away on the fourth, he caught wind of the plan and appeared at the beginning of the party, The first thing he did was say before you try anything I have a demonstration out back. His father and everyone were amused enough to see this demonstration, The two officers were there in uniform this time, My husband put five throwing stars five a five inch target from 40 feet away in under ten seconds. The he showed that was not the only weapons he had, He produces two sies. We did not know were they came from. That was an effective deterant, No one tried anything. We were the ones that started the abuse, his father said he had a slot to fill and he did not have the right to beak out of that slot, There was never any concerns for my husbands needs In the 23 years after his return from the military, He only had six days off. never a holiday, It was not his choice but promises were made, he kept his for a very long time, I did not. 
His councilors say we created what he is now. He is verified as a PTSD effective after the brain surgery in 2001 the exhaustion from being kept wake for 106 hours straight in the navy, The number of days in three and a half years he was isolated from me and his family, He had three gold stares and a silver as well as the FBM patrol pin so each gold star was three patrols averaging 106 days not including refits and one daso patrol.
Six days off in 31 years was all he had. Then the MRSA four years ago in his spine. leaving him without feeling from the top of his legs down.
Then on top of it his father wants him gone to impress his friends and say he is still in control, My husband considers most of them as self important drunks, drug users and pot smokers. 
I don't know if this is a good excus but in his mind after talking with his councilor again, he is staging a war of independence. I guess I can see his point of view when you trap someone like that. Then the only option you have left is to come out of the trap raging. it might not be civil but according to his doctors we were never civil or even considerate of his needs we had an indentured servant, we used him as one.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

wanttolove said:


> Great quote from Dr. Laura Schlessinger in her book _The Proper Care And Feeding of Husbands_, a statement by a listener to her radio show:
> 
> "_Sex is to a husband what conversation is to a wife. When a wife deprives her husband of sex for days, even weeks on end, it is tantamount to his refusing to talk to her for days, even weeks. Think of it that way, wives, and realize what a deleterious impact enforced sexual abstinence has on a good man who is determined to remain faithful_."
> 
> ...


I have listened to Dr Laura before and agree with much of what she says although not all. She is an avid supporter of men in marriage so it's a refreshing change from what is normally heard. I guess some of her opinions have stuck with me as I have quoted the first of your two quotes myself here and agree with it totally.


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## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

I don't always agree with Dr. Laura either, but I find her honesty and willingness to step outside of the Christian cliche' refreshing.

I am a 53 year old husband of 22 years. I expected that sex would change over the years from the excited newness of newlywed bliss to something that happens less often at times as middle age approached. I did not expect affection to stop 100% and daily affection is something I need more than sex (at any frequency). If affection had not died in my marriage, sex would not have died, and communication would be a whole lot easier.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

wanttolove said:


> Great quote from Dr. Laura Schlessinger in her book _The Proper Care And Feeding of Husbands_, a statement by a listener to her radio show:
> 
> "_Sex is to a husband what conversation is to a wife. When a wife deprives her husband of sex for days, even weeks on end, it is tantamount to his refusing to talk to her for days, even weeks. Think of it that way, wives, and realize what a deleterious impact enforced sexual abstinence has on a good man who is determined to remain faithful_."
> 
> ...


I agree with the statements above.

Funny thing about it is that there are women and even men right here on TAM who would argue this simple fact , hands down.

They try to complicate the most basic human functions with a lot of psycho babble and politically correct mumbo jumbo.

Thing is , long before there was all the books and the blogs on how to get sex from your wife and how to give your husband great sex, our ancestors were having crazy monkey sex.

Click on this link to have a look at the reliefs on the Khajuraho temple of erotica located in India.

What are We Worshipping? | Pages From Serendipity

That temple was built almost 1000 years ago.

And there are many other manuscripts and reliefs that are over 4000 yrs old.

Hell, the Karma Sutra was written circa 400 BCE and contrary to popular perception, especially in the western world, Kama sutra is not just an exclusive sex manual. 
It presents itself as a guide to a virtuous and gracious living that discusses the nature of love, family life and other aspects pertaining to pleasure oriented faculties of human life.

So how did this book on " _virtuous family life_ " become thought of a sex manual for crazy monkey sex?
Easy.
Instead of separating sex from the other everyday pleasures of life,like Westerners are prone to do,they viewed sex as an integral part of normal husband / wife relationship , as normal as breathing, and not as something that had to be bargained in marriage.


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## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

You pretty much just described what a healthy marriage relationship should be like. The relationship should just flow naturally, including the physical relationship. I don't think it is just Westerners that don't get that or at least let life get in the way....


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> I agree with the statements above.
> 
> Funny thing about it is that there are women and even men right here on TAM who would argue this simple fact , hands down.
> 
> ...


I'm wondering how the advent of long term monogamy (marriage) messed with the "going with the flow." The separating of sex from other human physical pleasures (making it shameful (a sin), and putting female sexuality under male control, for example) are cultural and social and political events, not sexual ones. 

Like it or not, sex is very politicized--in society, in marriages, and in our own minds. Digging out from that is not always a simple act of will, or even of education. With effort and with enlightenment, individuals can choose to change their behaviors and uncover their true sexual selves . . . .but just flipping a switch? Doesn't happen often. Even when we love someone very, very much.


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## Sunburn (Jul 9, 2012)

ScarletBegonias said:


> This only tells what sex deprivation means to the husband. What does it refer to for the wife's side of sex deprivation?


Defenses down please.

If that had been the topic then the title might have read:

Wife vs Husband: What sex deprivation means..


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## Sunburn (Jul 9, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> For a woman that wants sex, deprivation is soul crushing. We're always told that men want sex, so for a woman whose man doesn't want sex it means he doesn't want it with her and she has no value.



.........and then you have those women like my X who wanted you to show interest in order to stroke their ego but was not interested in the follow-through.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Sunburn said:


> Defenses down please.
> 
> If that had been the topic then the title might have read:
> 
> Wife vs Husband: What sex deprivation means..


I don't understand what you mean "defenses down". My defenses weren't up. I didn't understand how the title went w the content. When you write "husband vs wife: what sex deprivation means" it can be taken that both views will be contained in the post and then compared. 
I wasn't expecting it to be just about the wife or just about the husband.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Less time for sex --> more time to plan a future without her...

Or a bit of karma. Or both.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

GettingIt said:


> I'm wondering how the advent of long term monogamy (marriage) messed with the "going with the flow." The separating of sex from other human physical pleasures (making it shameful (a sin), and putting female sexuality under male control, for example) are cultural and social and political events, not sexual ones.
> 
> Like it or not, sex is very politicized--in society, in marriages, and in our own minds. Digging out from that is not always a simple act of will, or even of education. With effort and with enlightenment, individuals can choose to change their behaviors and uncover their true sexual selves . . . .but just flipping a switch? Doesn't happen often. Even when we love someone very, very much.


Firstly, the advent of long term monogamy is what built the earliest ancient civilizations. Without long term monogamy , or a man having one wife and knowing beyond the shadow of doubt that his kids were actually his, it would have been impossible to pass on land and valuables at the time of death. Without land , the offspring would be unable to have the basics of life , ie: food and shelter.
It is virtually impossible to govern societies where a huge number of people are hungry and disenfranchised .
Long term monogamy was invented to solve that problem. 

The reality is , the Karma Sutra was written as a guide for married couples , thousands of years ago.

So ,when I hear people say that women's sexuality was historically repressed and under male control , I take it with a tablespoon of salt.
In fact , look through most ancient erotic writings and religious manuscripts , you would see the importance and status given to a woman's sexuality.

Western societies in the last few centuries are guilty of separating sex from other aspects of life. Vacillating wildly from one extreme to the next , when what is needed is a balanced , mature approach. 
Here's a more recent example ;

How has the so called " sexual revolution" of the 60's , helped sex in marriage?
How does telling a person that they should have lots of sex with lots of different people before marriage guarantee that they have a fulfilling sex life after marriage?
It does not.
That's like saying drink all the types of water you can get before marriage , flavored water , vitamin water , mineral water etc ,because after marriage , you will only get plain water , and sometimes you might even die of thirst.

Yes , sex in marriage is totally different from sex before marriage , but if one really understood and appreciated the value of sex , they would know that it is actually better , so there's no need to adopt the " get all you can before marriage " attitude.

Ostensibly , the long term quality of sex you have in your marriage is based on your attitude to sex and the ability to bond intimately with ONE partner , and not the amount of sex you had _before_ marriage.

So where exactly di that piece of advice come from?

Be very careful of what you choose to believe.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

If we consulted Game of Thrones for marital advise things would be a lot better... Not very many LD's there


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## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

I'm going to have to start watching Game of Thrones. The only show I watch is Walking Dead, which is an appropriate description of my sex life.


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## I Notice The Details (Sep 15, 2012)

DoF said:


> Whenever <insert ANYTHING> is important to a partner and their SO doesn't make sure it is covered, that person is asking for trouble.


BINGO! This is so simple, yet so true!


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## whatslovegottodowithit? (Jan 6, 2013)

wanttolove said:


> I'm going to have to start watching Game of Thrones. The only show I watch is Walking Dead, which is an appropriate description of my sex life.


If your sex life is dead, did you do what Dr. Laura suggests and ask your W to pick one of the following that she (W) can live with (for you)?:

1) Pay a hooker
2) Get a girlfriend
3) Masturbate to Porn

I've heard her say this to both men and women many, many times.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> Firstly, the advent of long term monogamy is what built the earliest ancient civilizations. Without long term monogamy , or a man having one wife and knowing beyond the shadow of doubt that his kids were actually his, it would have been impossible to pass on land and valuables at the time of death. Without land , the offspring would be unable to have the basics of life , ie: food and shelter.
> It is virtually impossible to govern societies where a huge number of people are hungry and disenfranchised .
> Long term monogamy was invented to solve that problem.
> 
> ...


Whoh, slow down, Cowboy!  

I wasn't putting forth anything except a quick musing about how the introduction of monogamy affected sexuality (and it most certainly did; whether this is seen as a net positive or negative development is up for debate.) You seem to have a strong opinion on the matter, so I believe that I'll check out some other sources before settling on mine. 

ETA: Wait, I just Googled for five minutes . . . . researchers don't even agree when or why monogamy started; but wow, some interesting theories! I don't doubt that monogamy is the foundation of civilization as we know it, but that doesn't mean it hasn't changed sexuality in ways that we sometimes chafe at. It's a complex and wonderful thing to think about and study: I think THIS will be my final and alway opinion on it. And after only five minutes on Google!


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all.
I think that when people try to describe the feelings of a group of 3 BILLION people, it isn't going to work. The meaning and importance of sex to different men, or to different women is, well... different.

On other forums I've seen about as many women as men being miserable because they aren't getting the sex that they want. 

Regularly being turned down for sex by a long term partner is very hurtful for most men or women. I'm not saying that one should never turn down sex, there may be all sorts of other issues, but people should be aware of the unhappiness it causes. 

When one person in a relationship wants a lot more sex than the other, its leads to all sorts of problems. The person who wants more feels constantly rejected and frustrated. The one who wants less feels constantly pressured and starts to think that sex is all that they mean to their partner.


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## lilith23 (Sep 6, 2012)

Of course sex is important, it is one of the strongest intimacy shared between a husband and a wife. It is not purely physical for men too... If it was then masturbation would have been enough.

With that said, it seems that aside of low drive or manipulation, lack of sex can also be caused by lack of bond and affection too. Long term resentments for example, miscommunication and such can be big cold waters for sex. It's not always about withholding, but lack of attraction and connection too, which drives some people losing sexual desire for the other. And if it happens, then it's not by doing house chores that it can be saved. And worse, a husband suddenly trying hard to help on the chores might look as if he is doing that not for caring for the wife but just wanting sex, which makes the wife feel worse and less connection towards husband, while husband remains clueless of why things are not going so good.
Also, taking each other for granted wouldn't help. Do the dating stuffs from time to time, have fun together! You can't expect the flames to switch on automatically when you need it, it has to be built!

Also, if my husband becomes less talkative to me then I'd first ask him if he's alright, not if he does not respect me anymore. People with their needs not met must express how they feel while caring for the other's feelings too. Although learning to communicate effectively and not worsening misunderstanding is the key. One thing is your spouse not caring how you feel, the other is that the bond is getting weaker and desire for each other is getting lower. Again, bond and attraction needs to be kept alive and not taken for granted, for both men and women.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

GettingIt said:


> ETA: Wait, I just Googled for five minutes . . . . researchers don't even agree when or why monogamy started; but wow, some interesting theories! I don't doubt that monogamy is the foundation of civilization as we know it, but that doesn't mean it hasn't changed sexuality in ways that we sometimes chafe at. It's a complex and wonderful thing to think about and study: I think THIS will be my final and alway opinion on it. And after only five minutes on Google!


Welcome to the REAL world!

Yes, I agree with you, it HAS affected our sexuality , because that is what it was meant to do.
Very few animals are monogamous.



But animals aren't * civilized...*


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

lilith23 said:


> Also, if my husband becomes less talkative to me then I'd first ask him if he's alright, not if he does not respect me anymore. *People with their needs not met must express how they feel while caring for the other's feelings too. Although learning to communicate effectively and not worsening misunderstanding is the key.* One thing is your spouse not caring how you feel, the other is that the bond is getting weaker and desire for each other is getting lower. Again, bond and attraction needs to be kept alive and not taken for granted, for both men and women.


QFT.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

wanttolove said:


> I'm going to have to start watching Game of Thrones. The only show I watch is Walking Dead, which is an appropriate description of my sex life.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> Welcome to the REAL world!
> 
> Yes, I agree with you, it HAS affected our sexuality , because that is what it was meant to do.
> Very few animals are monogamous.
> ...


I like to think I have always dwelled in the real world; which, may, admittedly, not be *your* real world vision.  In fact, my version of the real world dicates that I seldom have passionate and unshakable opinions about anything because . . . well, there is ALWAYS more to learn. I will forever question myself when I get too comfortable with an opinion. Maybe it's my Libra showing. 

I don't think monogamy was "meant to" do anything--we evolved into it, like everything else. It suits humans for now; when it's no longer suitable, we'll move on. We wear our civility very thinly upon our hides, and I find this beautiful, not frightening. That's my Wiccan showing.


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## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> Very few animals are monogamous.
> 
> But animals aren't * civilized...*


It has been quite a while since any woman has called me an animal.

Do we really want to get into a discussion on the differences between animals and humans? That can be reserved for a different discussion.


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## inquizitivemind (Jul 16, 2013)

I didn't read what everyone has said, but honestly I feel it is not fair to either sex if we over generalize them like these books tend to do. In my opinion, withholding sex from a partner whether male or female is detrimental to the relationship. If you want to have a healthy relationship, sex should be something that draws you closer. And if people are using that as a punishment or reward, it will only backfire over time.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> I like to think I have always dwelled in the real world; which, may, admittedly, not be *your* real world vision.  In fact, my version of the real world dicates that I seldom have passionate and unshakable opinions about anything because . . . well, there is ALWAYS more to learn. I will forever question myself when I get too comfortable with an opinion. Maybe it's my Libra showing.
> 
> I don't think monogamy was "meant to" do anything--we evolved into it, like everything else. It suits humans for now; when it's no longer suitable, we'll move on. We wear our civility very thinly upon our hides, and I find this beautiful, not frightening. That's my Wiccan showing.



I tend to think monogamy has its roots in people congregating in large groups to form civilizations. When people ran around in tribes and men often died either warring or hunting it made sense for the men that remained to have offspring by different women.

As people started to live in larger groups it became chaotic for men to jump from one woman to another. This is where some cultures moved to polygamy, to try to bring order to men hopping around. But it also meant he had to have resources to support multiple families, which many men didn't.

Then certain religions forbade it, and once fewer men died in war or hunt it became impractical for one guy to hog multiple women because gender proportions evened out. If one guy has 5 wives and there's no women left for you you're going to be unhappy.

Once romantic love reared its head monogamy was the only way to go. There's nothing romantic about your partner banging others.

To make the argument that no other animal practices monogamy is apples and oranges; no other animal has sex for anything but.procreation either. Humans are the only ones that do it for enjoyment so clearly we're different from other animals in this respect.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> I tend to think monogamy has its roots in people congregating in large groups to form civilizations. When people ran around in tribes and men often died either warring or hunting it made sense for the men that remained to have offspring by different women.
> 
> As people started to live in larger groups it became chaotic for men to jump from one woman to another. This is where some cultures moved to polygamy, to try to bring order to men hopping around. But it also meant he had to have resources to support multiple families, which many men didn't.
> 
> ...


I happened to catch this Stephanie Coontz lecture the other evening on a long drive home. So much of it is applicable to your musings here (particularly how romantic love changed marriage as an institution--in fact how romantic love weakened it horribly as a social institution!). 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwtb7jz8G4k

Also, you might find this article, and the studies it cites, to be interesting reads. This article also links to some others on the same topic of the origins of monogamy.

2 Studies Offer Different Theories on How Monogamy Developed | TIME.com

Neat stuff--but as I noted earlier, researchers don't agree on how all this went down, except that it's a complex blend of biological and sociological influences.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Are women that clueless really seems like that should be pretty common knowledge based on the response men give when withheld from. I think many women don't care and if they don't want to have sex ....so be it


Yes, some of us are clueless.. I can only speak for myself.. I was NEVER low Drive.. NEVER.. I orgasm every time I have sex, I love







.... I needed it at least once or week or I would get REAL HORNY and need to take care of myself or go shake him down.. but that's the thing.. I ONLY needed it THAT MUCH...or it wasn't on my radar - so what the heck did I know.. here he was suffering wanting it MORE so -like every other day would have been wonderful, heck once a day !! But he was too passive and didn't want to bother me.. I had other things on my brain.. (trying to conceive, then kids, projects , bla bla)

If he would have just talked to me...tried to share what it was doing to him.... but MANY men wont do this, they don't want to to come off as whining or a burden..that is humiliating really.

Or he could have been more Overt to turn me on , honesty I think this would have been the better path but that is just not how my Husband is ...so much... so we missed each other for many years where he WANTED & craved more sex, putting himself down for me... He knew other men had it worse, so he told me -he didn't want to rock the boat. 

Biggest blunder of my marriage.. Wish I could go back in time.. no one ever tried to explain to me this incessant NEED/ urgency a man feels for his wife.. that longing. when I hear this song by Bryan Adams.. it expresses it ALL...  Please forgive me 



> Please forgive me ‒ I know not what I do.
> Please forgive me ‒ I can't stop lovin' you
> *Don't deny me, this pain I'm going through...
> Please forgive me if I need you like I do.
> ...



Yeah... where was Dr Laura's book when I was younger.....that's the one I NEEDED to read, not all the other dribble I was filling my head with.

So if someone like me - who loved Sex - even I was this foolish.... I can only imagine how less of an urgency a Low drive woman would be... in NOT getting it..

Had my husband rejected me in the past, I would have been absolutely devastated.. I remember the 1st night he wasn't up for it.. I think I cried.. It shook me -- but I had to remind myself - I was wearing him out..

It took an explosive sex drive increase to open my eyes to this urgency men FEEL.. I suddenly had the greatest sympathy for high drivers, coming to this forum and trying to explain how THAT FEELS.. 

If you have a faithful loving partner, do all you can to please them in this way.. it means the world to them, it is a life giving.. it makes us feel wanted, accepted deeply in every way.. I know what it's done for me.. and this is when I was pushing HIS limits..


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I keep seeing the recurring theme of "nobody tried to explain to me what sex meant to my husband"... 

So let me wear my flameproof sit and ask... Did someone explain to you what your love means to your children? Your parents? Or it was something innate, something just there.

Or was your view shaped by family, culture, peer group, media, or religion?

By 9th grade biology we understand the physical aspects of it and by the time we get out of high school we also at least begin to understand the emotional aspects of it. Yet a decade or two later into a marriage those views don't converge into the obvious?

Or is it that husbands do a krappy job communicating ???


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> Or is it that husbands do a krappy job communicating ???


Yes. 

John, I have a very good marriage, and have for 20 years. But it was just last month that dh said that sex meets an emotional need in him. And that was only when I _asked!_


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

john117 said:


> I keep seeing the recurring theme of "nobody tried to explain to me what sex meant to my husband"...
> 
> So let me wear my flameproof sit and ask... Did someone explain to you what your love means to your children? Your parents?* Or it was something innate, something just there.*


 Yes it WAS there for me...when we got together, we had a need to touch each other and want to go there....

Where I was missing it was.. I wasn't grasping his DRIVE was so much HIGHER than mine was...Like if I had a sex romp / an orgasm... I felt content *for days* (unless something aroused me -then I was ready again).... but a man is only content for a DAY.. and he wants to do it again.. this is where MY disconnect was.. make sense? 

I get a little bent out of shape on here sometimes when I read posts insisting women's drives are generally AS HIGH as men when we are younger.. NO FREAKING WAY.. sure there are exceptions out there....but younger women do not need a release like 3 times a day.. My husband used to whack it up to 5 times a day (but no, I didn't know this back then, we never talked about masturbating, too embarrassing / taboo).. women don't get blue balls and some never even masturbate!! ... 

What are the statistics on men.. Hormones GREATLY influence our outlook, our behaviors , that urgency.. Testosterone is our LUST hormone...men have 10 ,up to 50 times more than we do..and a certain area in their brain is more active due to this also. 

For some of us women...if our men has always satisfied us ...we just aren't getting it ... the effects of High testosterone -until we hit *our PRIME.*.(late 30's -early 40's generally if we are not taking any meds to mess with it)..

I think Men get a BUM deal in this.. as they are so misunderstood in their youth by the girls.. they get called Pervs and all kinds of things because they are like a moth to a flame to porn, wanting to touch, feel...(I felt that too in mid life!- couldn't lay it down).. then by the time we "get it" - he is slowing down and could be full of resentment after all the years the wife didn't want bothered.. 

Many cases like that.. Our Hormones have a powerful effect on our minds and the window to our eroticism.



> *Or was your view shaped by family, culture, peer group, media, or religion?*


 I tried to be a christian ...felt guilty about masturbating but (my conditioning- sitting in the church pew) would have never stopped me - *the URGE was too strong*.. it did allow for me to stop there and not go all the way with a boy... though..(much of this was plain concern for my well being though too- not about religious rules)



> * Or is it that husbands do a krappy job communicating ???*


 When a few of these things are going on.... conditioning (repression), combined with lower drive (just not feeling it) and a husband who fails to lay it out there.. it can reac havoc on a marriage.. then enters RESENTMENT and this shuts everything down, there goes the intimacy!

My husband told me .... he never wanted me to think it was "just about sex"..another reason he didn't come on too strong..

This is a good article (christian based -but gets to the heart of the matter)...Sex Is an Emotional Need -


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## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

jld said:


> Yes.
> 
> John, I have a very good marriage, and have for 20 years. But it was just last month that dh said that sex meets an emotional need in him. And that was only when I _asked!_


For me it took quite a while for the pieces of the puzzle to come together before I saw how the physical and emotional work together with me. I didn't really start thinking in those terms until I felt the sting of losing the physical. Then I started to look deeper, started asking questions. I didn't think I needed to before then.

(and what animal does that?)


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> Yes.
> 
> John, I have a very good marriage, and have for 20 years. But it was just last month that dh said that sex meets an emotional need in him. And that was only when I _asked!_



(Roll eyes so far back that I can see my own visual cortex )

Would you have figured it out on your own had you not asked?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> (Roll eyes so far back that I can see my own visual cortex )
> 
> Would you have figured it out on your own had you not asked?


No. And why are you rolling your eyes?

_And don't think I can't hear you muttering "Stupid woman!" all the way over here . . ._


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Because you are very emphatic, jld. That's why!!!! You're very good at picking such nuances. You're sensitive and a good listener. You care. 

ETA: You should be able to read him like an open book. He should be able to read you too.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> Because you are very emphatic, jld. That's why!!!! You're very good at picking such nuances. You're sensitive and a good listener. You care.


Aww, thanks, john. But I can be pretty clueless. I don't think I was familiar with the term "emotional needs" before I came across marriage forums last fall.

I have just always felt men needed sex regularly. But I did not realize there was an emotional component to it for them. Always seemed pretty physical to me.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

John How would a woman intuit that sex has an emotional component for men? Men do every thing possible to indicate that sex means nothing but pleasure and ego confirmation. Show me anything in our culture to indicate that sex has anything to do with an emotional connection for men.

The emotional investment men put into sex is not evident by what they say and do. I think you are asking the wrong gender. Ask men why their behavior indicates that sex is about numbers of women they manage to get sex from and not the number of woman with whom they make an emotional connection. 

It is better to be realistic with expectations. Assuming that woman should know this is not helpful. Life experience says the exact opposite. Marriage does not make a woman a wizard with the ability to divine the truth out of the ethers.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Catherine, maybe I have supernatural powers and can read other people's minds. But let's assume I don't. 

It doesn't take a psychic to tell me that I need to be emotionally connected to my wife and vice versa. Reciprocity is the name of the game. Are people this brainwashed by oaf husbands on TV and movies that they think we are just a bunch of club wielding proto-humans with only a few dozen neurons controlling our crotch?

Like jld you come across as a sensitive and caring person. You don't sound like the kind of woman that would dip her quill into popular stereotypes and pen her views of people. 

Those stereotypes of how fast men score and how often etc are true, but after a decade of marriage reality dictates it's own little after a decade of marriage end assuming you're communicating well you should know each other pretty well. TV and your friends' experiences should not matter. 

Maybe your husband is not clear about expressing his needs. You may need to help him see your side of things. Maybe you take what he says to face value and don't second guess yourself. 

I think it's doable. Try to see what he thinks.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Honestly, John, I did not know dh had any emotional needs. He is even tempered and would probably not talk about feelings unless I brought them up.

I asked him once, after coming to TAM, what his needs were. He said that he did not know. I said I really wanted to know, so I could make sure I was meeting them. He said he did not know what they were, but he was sure I was meeting them. 

When I asked him that question last month about whether sex was an emotional need for him, he said yes, but that I meet that need in other ways, too. 

Maybe some of us are just really clueless. I think dh and I are, for sure. But if we are happy with each other, we must be doing something right. Even if we do not know what it is.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Maybe most people don't have the need to second guess themselves and are happy to see life roll by, jld. That's what this sounds like to me. 

It's like driving a Honda. You get in, it starts, it runs, it takes you to Costco, why fuss with it. You fill it with gas, change the oil... On the other hand if you drive some other cars they're far more temperamental so you always are on edge.

Same with marriages.  optional.


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## Sunburn (Jul 9, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> To make the argument that no other animal practices monogamy is apples and oranges; no other animal has sex for anything but.procreation either. Humans are the only ones that do it for enjoyment so clearly we're different from other animals in this respect.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


some species of dolphins and monkeys have sex for pleasure. Not sure what that means in their social structure though.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> Maybe most people don't have the need to second guess themselves and are happy to see life roll by, jld. That's what this sounds like to me.
> 
> It's like driving a Honda. You get in, it starts, it runs, it takes you to Costco, why fuss with it. You fill it with gas, change the oil... On the other hand if you drive some other cars they're far more temperamental so you always are on edge.
> 
> Same with marriages.  optional.


Yes, I think dh and I are basic model car owners.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

john117 said:


> Catherine, maybe I have supernatural powers and can read other people's minds. But let's assume I don't.
> 
> It doesn't take a psychic to tell me that I need to be emotionally connected to my wife and vice versa. Reciprocity is the name of the game. Are people this brainwashed by oaf husbands on TV and movies that they think we are just a bunch of club wielding proto-humans with only a few dozen neurons controlling our crotch?
> 
> ...


John I know that men are as emotionally capable as woman. But that is all I knew until I read and learned. Nothing in my life to that point aided me in realizing that when a man falls in love it is communicated via sex. I also didn't know that humans go through stages of sexual maturity. The teen sex period is nothing like the mature stage. Who knew. 

The change is not obvious in a loving relationship. You said that you think I am sensitive. The fact that I did not know belies my being sensitive. I thought that men were emotionally like women with different anatomy. I did know that the difference was more than anatomical. There was no way that I could. My husband never told me. 

A bad experience in my teen years confirmed my belief that men use women for sex and have no empathy for their emotional devastation. Many woman have been used and have that as a reference point. It's not intentional obtuseness. I understand the feelings of men who would not think of using women. The ones that do, create great harm. It effects decent men by extension. But I don't think that men realize how they are effected. 

They think its unfair that they be burdened with the effects of something that they had no part of. It's not fair to these women either. But that's life, we are none of us islands, each mans pain is our pain (not my idea, I read it and believe it). That usually spurs people to act to right wrongs. When harmful sexual attitudes are deemed unacceptable by men and women, it will decrease along with the effects on relationships. 

As long as female vulnerability is seen as an opportunity to use then it will continue. Vulnerability and trust are important in a relationship. However, once it is turned off, it is almost impossible to turn back on. That's especially true when a partner does not understand.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good afternoon Catherine602
There is of course a lot of variation in men, as there is in women. For some men, sex is just physical. For a lot though I think there is a strong emotional component. Men are somewhat pressured by society to not express how they feel, but I think that lot DO feel about this. 

If sex were just physical, men could, well, take care of themselves - they have a lot more practice stimulating themselves and are very good at it. If they were just looking for the physical sensation, why bother with involving another person at all. 




Catherine602 said:


> John How would a woman intuit that sex has an emotional component for men? Men do every thing possible to indicate that sex means nothing but pleasure and ego confirmation. Show me anything in our culture to indicate that sex has anything to do with an emotional connection for men.
> 
> The emotional investment men put into sex is not evident by what they say and do. I think you are asking the wrong gender. Ask men why their behavior indicates that sex is about numbers of women they manage to get sex from and not the number of woman with whom they make an emotional connection.
> 
> It is better to be realistic with expectations. Assuming that woman should know this is not helpful. Life experience says the exact opposite. Marriage does not make a woman a wizard with the ability to divine the truth out of the ethers.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

That was an excellent couple of posts. I guess experiences, culture, and the like teach us how to please or be pleased at a young age. And as mentioned, once those experiences take root, they're hard to undo.

What I have done since the age of 12 literally is to play back important things in my head and see what I could have done if fervently, whether I missed something, and so on. That's the second guessing part. This works well as it teaches you about yourself as well. Know thyself and the like if you get my drift.

Armed with those two you really can use information collected during life to fill in the gaps. Don't be afraid to experiment but keep your eyes on the outcome and how you got there! This should help you see things beyond the surface. Don't be afraid to play out scenarios in your head. It's just synapses firing.

That's how I operate at least. Seems to work for me.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Catherine602 said:


> John How would a woman intuit that sex has an emotional component for men? Men do every thing possible to indicate that sex means nothing but pleasure and ego confirmation. Show me anything in our culture to indicate that sex has anything to do with an emotional connection for men.
> 
> The emotional investment men put into sex is not evident by what they say and do.


:iagree:

I have been told all my life by men, and even here on TAM, that sex for men is a meaningless physical activity that they want to engage in as much as possible, with as many different women as possible. And that indeed, the only reason they even get married in the first place is so they can keep a steady supply on tap.

I'm still not sure where or how we're supposed to learn that there is anything emotional in this. Or why we should believe it.

In fact, many men here say all they need from their wives to make them happy is regular sex. And maybe meals. There are threads full of this sort of contention.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

always_alone said:


> :iagree:
> 
> I have been told all my life by men, and even here on TAM, that sex for men is a meaningless physical activity that they want to engage in as much as possible, with as many different women as possible. And that indeed, the only reason they even get married in the first place is so they can keep a steady supply on tap.
> 
> ...


And those men may well have been telling you the truth---for them. What society tells us is one thing, but when our spouse tells us something else...I think in most cases it should have a little more weight. Maybe the societal stereotypes are true, and maybe they aren't. It doesn't matter. What matters is what your spouse needs, and if they're telling you their needs it's probably a good idea to believe them.

Is it fair for me to treat my spouse according to "averages" and stereotypes? Or is it better if I give her what she tells me she needs?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

always_alone said:


> :iagree:
> 
> I have been told all my life by men, and even here on TAM, that sex for men is a meaningless physical activity that they want to engage in as much as possible, with as many different women as possible. And that indeed, the only reason they even get married in the first place is so they can keep a steady supply on tap.
> 
> ...



Not that simple I am afraid. Not for some of us at least.

If you look at it from the standpoint of stimulating body parts, yea sure, that's all sex is. Magic Wand - flesh and bones version.

That's because you have sex, you straighten the bed sheets (and remount the headboard ) and that's all there is.

Nobody thinks in terms of what sex is in a more meaningful way of thinking until sex becomes akin to Nessie in frequency of appearances.

The part about "as many women and as often as possible" is bar counter talk of times past once the couple is married. If they can't see a difference between pre marriage and post marriage attitudes then they need to start there. 

The people who mention that all they need from their wives is sex are those whose sex life approximates Nessie appearances, present company included :rofl: so we are not exactly a random group...

Men are not used to show those types of emotions, granted, but it's not that difficult to decipher what's going on. You can decipher your infant's cry or toddler-speak but can't decide your husband?

Maybe my job as a toaster oven whisperer has taught me more about human nature than about toaster oven nature...


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> And those men may well have been telling you the truth---for them. What society tells us is one thing, but when our spouse tells us something else...I think in most cases it should have a little more weight. Maybe the societal stereotypes are true, and maybe they aren't. It doesn't matter. What matters is what your spouse needs, and if they're telling you their needs it's probably a good idea to believe them.
> 
> Is it fair for me to treat my spouse according to "averages" and stereotypes? Or is it better if I give her what she tells me she needs?


Wow, this captures pretty perfectly what I've learned since coming to TAM. I brought way to much of what I learned and interanlized from society into my marriage. I really did think my husband couldn't tell me anything (even about himself, as a husband and a man) that I didn't already know. His attempts to do so were to _trick_ me into giving him more sex and to _use_ me like a piece of meat. 

Why didn't I listen to my husband? Why couldn't I hear him? Yeah, I can blame the social messages, but I don't have an intimate relationship with society . . . I have one with my husband. Why did I look at my husband and see society? He has NEVER treated me poorly, has NEVER treated me the way society tells women that men will treat them. 

Well, my husband and I have rebuilt our marriage from the ground up. Our current dynamic, I know, would be harshly judged by much of society, but it is now so EASY to not give a flying fvck since "getting" just what Fozzy is pointing out. It really did hit me like a ton of bricks. I don't think anything in my life as been quite as freeing.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Societal stereotypes are guidelines that you can use if you don't have exact details of what to do in your mental models... However part of the process involves selecting appropriate stereotypes and recognizing where your situation differs and adjusting accordingly. 

You could also defer to stereotypes when you don't have self confidence to go against the tide. At a younger age this is fairly standard.

Eventually you form your own opinions regardless of what society holds dear, and that's the Aha! moment.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening GettingIt
I am very glad that you and your husband now understand each other. 

People really are individuals - you just can't apply society's rules to decide that a particular person wants. A lot of people would be a lot happier if they could learn this earlier.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> And those men may well have been telling you the truth---for them. What society tells us is one thing, but when our spouse tells us something else...I think in most cases it should have a little more weight.


Ah, well, my SO never told me it was an emotional need either. He tells me that if he's not having sex with me, it will just be with someone else.

I do believe what he says.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

john117 said:


> Maybe my job as a toaster oven whisperer has taught me more about human nature than about toaster oven nature...


Now I'm confused John, you posted several times that they are the same. :scratchhead:


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Toaster ovens (the products I help design, affectionately called toaster ovens) by nature are not very talkative so the only way we can hear them talk is to video tape our schleps aka test subjects using them.... And observe how the schleps interact with the products, and so on 

You'd be amazed to see what high speed video reveals!!


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

always_alone said:


> Ah, well, my SO never told me it was an emotional need either. He tells me that if he's not having sex with me, *it will just be with someone else.*
> 
> I do believe what he says.


How do you feel about that, aa?


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

always_alone said:


> :iagree:
> 
> I have been told all my life by men, and even here on TAM, that sex for men is a meaningless physical activity that they want to engage in as much as possible, with as many different women as possible. And that indeed, the only reason they even get married in the first place is so they can keep a steady supply on tap.


First of all, you've been talking to the wrong men.

Secondly, your latter sentence contradicts the idea that men want to engage in sex as much as possible with as many different women as possible.

A man gets married because he wants one woman, not as many different ones as possible. And I think any man with half a brain knows there will not be a steady supply on tap. Most men, I believe, have heard the horror stories of being married decreases the frequency of sex after a while, especially once kids enter the picture. And this isn't me saying "I've heard from people....", I lived it.



> Ah, well, my SO never told me it was an emotional need either. He tells me that if he's not having sex with me, it will just be with someone else.
> 
> I do believe what he says.


This is the man you have touted as a great and wonderful man? If a woman told me that, I'd open the front door and tell her to walk through it.


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## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

vellocet said:


> A man gets married because he wants one woman, not as many different ones as possible. And I think any man with half a brain knows there will not be a steady supply on tap. Most men, I believe, have heard the horror stories of being married decreases the frequency of sex after a while, especially once kids enter the picture. And this isn't me saying "I've heard from people....", I lived it.


:iagree:

Would you say that as a marriage continues, after the kids have grown, when the marriage relationship comes back to focus on each other (more or less), the act becomes secondary to the affection and closeness needed?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

wanttolove said:


> :iagree:
> 
> 
> 
> Would you say that as a marriage continues, after the kids have grown, when the marriage relationship comes back to focus on each other (more or less), the act becomes secondary to the affection and closeness needed?



Yep. Another few months on my bicycle and there won't be any functional male parts left down there  so affection and closeness is what it's all about...


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## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

john117 said:


> Yep. Another few months on my bicycle and there won't be any functional male parts left down there  so affection and closeness is what it's all about...


That's why I have a cut out in the middle of my bicycle seat!


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

john117 said:


> Yep. Another few months on my bicycle and there won't be any functional male parts left down there  so affection and closeness is what it's all about...


Get a decent seat! Don't count yourself out yet John. You'll need those man parts in the future.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I know, it's actually not that bad. I just came back from an 8 mile ride and the parts seem to be happy


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## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

john117 said:


> I know, it's actually not that bad. I just came back from an 8 mile ride and the parts seem to be happy


Ummm... eight miles should be a warm up. 

Chicago area? if so, we should get out for a bicycle ride!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

No, further south in the general vicinity of the People's Republic of Paducahistan  

8-10 miles at 8-9 mph is all that I can do right now without a defibrillator lolz. Considering my age (54) and general lack of shape I'm quite surprised myself. I want to do 10/10 this year (consistent 10 miles @ 10 mph) then focus on 15 miles at 10, etc. I don't ride in streets, no need to since our super wealthy town has world class bike paths (which real cyclists don't use )


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Just keep doing what you are doing, john. And good for you for doing it!


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## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

john117 said:


> No, further south in the general vicinity of the People's Republic of Paducahistan
> 
> 8-10 miles at 8-9 mph is all that I can do right now without a defibrillator lolz. Considering my age (54) and general lack of shape I'm quite surprised myself. I want to do 10/10 this year (consistent 10 miles @ 10 mph) then focus on 15 miles at 10, etc. I don't ride in streets, no need to since our super wealthy town has world class bike paths (which real cyclists don't use )


You have goals and reasonable/attainable goals. Good for you! Bike paths are great. Around here even the bike clubs use the paths, usually as a change of pace ride. I ride both road and mountain bikes.. and I am 53. We are both still youngsters! A lot of people younger than me can't keep up, something I love (heh heh).


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