# Am I overreacting?



## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

You've probably seen commercials for that Steve Carell movie where he finds himself in a "taking it for granted, stale" marriage for 20 years. His wife announces she has slept with someone else and wants a divorce. It's getting rave reviews.

Anyway, my wife and I saw the preview to this last week and she thought it looked cute but acknowledged I probably wouldn't want to see it due to what happened (she had a deep EA, no PA).

Fast forward to last night. She brings it up again, says it's supposed to be really good, and that it really hits on what we've been going through. I tell her no way and she gets pouty about it, even says, "So I guess you're going to make me see that by myself." Like I'm the a**hole for not wanting to go.

I got REALLY pissed off. Triggers everywhere in this movie, I'm sure. I mean, you got a guy who lets things slip in their long marriage (just like me), wife cheats (like mine, although EA only), and then Carell's character bends over backwards to improve himself to make his ex jealous (or get her back, I can't tell). To me, it's like, hey, if you wife cheats, you better man up and kiss her a*s!! 

Anyway, we had a rough, short conversation about it. I told her I was very upset about this and that this told me she really didn't get it just how devastating this was/is. She said, "I understand that, but I don't think YOU get it" (meaning the part about taking things for granted and how that can result in bad things). I said back to her, strongly, this morning.

"A movie is NOT therapy. I don't need to be taught a lesson AGAIN." And I stormed off. Since then we've had a couple of cordial exchange and it's mostly over with, but I am still having a hard time with her thought process here and what that means.

Thoughts? Is it reasonable that she wanted us to go to this movie, since it is so relevant to our situation? Or is this just assinine like I think it is?


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## DoveInTheMud (May 25, 2011)

No matter how good the movie may be, the fact that you explained to her how painful it would be for you to see it should be enough.

Given that she seemingly is still protecting herself from the pain that would be inevitable if she would try to put herself in your shoes, you may need to take a different approach to get 'through' to her, as you seem to indicate that she does in fact love you and wants the marriage to work.

Perhaps you can ask her point blank, but with softness in your voice and in your eyes:

"Honey, I appreciate that the movie may be very good and that in light of the difficulties we are going through you are yearning for some lighthearted entertainment.
Can you understand that this particular storyline is extremely painful for me?
If you feel the need to see that movie, please go ahead with one of your female friends, but it would help me a lot if you would refrain from talking about it or telling me about the move afterwards. You can share that you had a good time, but please understand that anything relating to the storyline would be painful for me to hear."


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## strongwomanof1984 (Jul 20, 2011)

I agree with DoveInTheMud....

Just assure her that you are in the process of getting over it, and getting your trust back for her, and you dont want to take 10 steps backward by opening up old wounds that are not completely healed just yet, when you have taken 5 steps forward to getting 100% over it.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Only you can decide if it's "reasonable."

I plan on seeing this movie the night it comes out cause it looks good (I was the BS and DS). Have been planning to see it for awhile now.


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## Saffron (Mar 7, 2010)

I don't think you're over-reacting, I'm not sure I want to see this movie either, even though I love Steve Carrell. However, for some reason, it seems very important to your wife that you see this movie together. If it was just for entertainment, why would she care so much? She thinks there's some message you'll "get" by seeing this movie, but does she even really know what the message is? It could be about giving up on the cheater and moving on with your life as the LS.

My plan is to read the spoiler after the movie is released. I actually think my H (the DS) will not want to see it. He hates seeing cheaters in movies, because now that's him and he wishes it wasn't. Usually the cheater ends up being the bad guy (females too), winding up alone and miserable. My H finds it depressing, because where's the Hollywood romantic comedy where the lead decides to stay with the cheater? At least without the betrayed person going off and playing the field before choosing the cheater again.

I'll be highly surprised if Steve Carrell's character and his wife end up together in the end. So why would my H want me to see it? It would basically be telling me, "Don't forgive your H for cheating, because you can find someone better out there that won't cheat."

By reading the spoiler first, I'll know if my H and I will enjoy the movie. Most likely it's too soon and we'll skip it. I'm not sure why your wife would want to risk triggering you, my H wants to avoid triggers as much as possible. He even suggested that he'll do all the Christmas decorating this year or take us away skiing during the holidays, because D-Day was around Christmas. He's worried I'll trigger and wants to keep it from happening if he can help it. 

How does your wife normally respond when you trigger? Seems you both need to cool down and talk it out some more. Does she think you're becoming complacent right now? Why is she so hung up on this movie, wouldn't a date night to a nice restaurant or to see a band be equally enjoyable?


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Frankly, I think it's a perfect movie for a couple that is struggling through a stale patch but when no A has happened yet. Once the A has happened all that is out the window.

It's supposed to be an excellent movie. What sucks is that if this had not happened (the EA) we would be running out to see it and really enjoying it. Yet another casualty of the A.

What bothers me the most is her completely misunderstanding and/or minimizing this, after all this time of healing and breakthroughs. Like I should be okay with this by now or something. It's only been 2.5 months.

She already KNOWS I don't want to see it. So you press it again a week later because you heard it was good? It's beyond inconsiderate and makes me think again about how we are doing on our R.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

I think any movie that treats marital betrayal as a joke is not worth seeing. Laughing over another person's misfortune is not cool in my book.

You know something, I wonder if the roles had been reversed (Carrell cheated), would the movie attract as many people, especially women?


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Saffron, thanks for your response. Great stuff there. My WW thinks that maybe I'll understand more what led to her cheating. That here we have a guy who let things slip in his marriage, and it got to a point where it was too late to fix the damage (in her eyes), so she cheated. Entertainment is a secondary benefit. We are both Carell fans.

This is why I told her "I don't need to be taught a lesson AGAIN". Haven't I been through that already?

I do agree about the seeing the spoiler. Depending on how it turns out, it might actually be cathartic in the ending. But getting there will be a ride I will want to jump off. I would likely leave the theater during certain parts. And why should I have to endure this? For her to say, "See, told ya. It's not just me." YOU ALREADY TOLD ME BY HAVING THE EA GODDAMMIT.

I think my WW wants to feel like she has company, even fictional company, in that other people cheat when marriages go bad or when one spouse isn't meeting the other's needs very well. She also probably sees that Carell's character is moving toward improving himself, and finds some sort of peace/happiness somewhere.

But in what way would this be good for a couple trying to go through R? Tell me. I can't get there. If they get back together, it kind of sucks because it almost makes the cheating seem okay. If he moves on to another woman it sucks, because that's not what the couple trying to R is looking to accomplish. And if the WW stays with her A partner, how can that be good? Can anyone write the ending so that it is good for both the WW and the BS watching this movie? What would that be?


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Gabriel, you gave her a good explanation of why you didn't want to go and that is more than enough. If she is still pushing you on this maybe you need to treat it as a "fitness test" she's testing to see your resolve on this and determine how much or how little control each of you have right now.

If I were you I'd say something like, "go by yourself if you want to see it, that way I'll be able to go for a bike ride at (some place challenging) that is probably too hard for you". Or something fun like that which you want to do. Just turn it around and put the challenge back on her, preferably something that actually pushes her into action, makes her follow your lead.


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## DoveInTheMud (May 25, 2011)

Gabriel,

I don't think you are over reacting at all, but in your pain, you're understandably not seeing your wife's situation fully.

Her pressing to see the movie is indeed inconsiderate and hurtful. However, I don't think that this in an indication about how well or badly R is going.

You admit that you had let things slip in the marriage. So she probably built up hurt and dissapoinment over the years that she never told you about. Possibly because of that, she ended up developing a 'hard heart' towards you that enabled her to choose to have the EA.

Possibly, her insistance of watching that move with you is because she indirectly is trying to cry out to you "please woo me, please show me that you love me, cherish me, etc...". Her hope is that by seeing that movie, you'll adopt some of the movie husband's changes.

Of course it would be way better for her to express that outside the context of a movie, but remember - if she had this ability, she could have told you much earlier in the marriage when she was disappointed with things.

She needs to develop those loving assertiveness skills and honest with herself (IC?) in order to help the marriage heal, but you are not entirely powerless in this.

Sorry ... my post here is extremely long.

I recently found this article (Reconciliation with a Hardened Wife) that I found spoke perfectly to my situation.
I realized that I developed a hardened heart towards my husband(people always know me as caring, compassionate, forgiving, gracious,...) .. this was for self-protection and survival. 
I see this now.

My struggle is to get to a point where I feel emotionally 'safe' enough with my husband to let my guard down, while being ****scared that he won't change the way he promised he would. Otherwise, I don't feel that I can keep surviving, much less 'living' and so this is seriously jepordizing our R right now.


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## DoveInTheMud (May 25, 2011)

So, in fact, this is not about the move at all, but about her inability to share with you what she thinks and feels (she wants the movie to tell you), and her being scared to feel your pain enough (being compassionate) to understand where you are coming from.

She wounded you beyond comprehension and yet feels like the victim.

But since you are here, on this site, listening to advice, you have the power, the tools, the knowledge, and the support to explore that fine line between being compassionate, caring and respectful towards her, without budging an inch from clearly needed boundaries (not being constantly and needlessly exposed to triggers, having your wishes listend to and considered, etc...) and showing her how you want and need to be respected in moving forward.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Dove, some of what you are saying is right on point. But my wife really did communicate with me very well, all along the way.

Bottom line is she was biting, angry, critical of me. And I was distant, unattentive and unthoughtful of her. She then would cry to me and tell me about the voids I was not filling (being more intimate, attentive, caring, etc). But this was hard for me because every argument made me the bad guy, everything was about what I did wrong. This cycle repeated many times over several years. After awhile, she felt her repeated attempts to make me change got nowhere and she gave up and drifted toward another man, a 20-year friend of hers that had never been married.

So your fear that he won't change as he promised, getting emotionally hard, etc, is exactly what my wife did after awhile. And she probably still has some of that in her now. But she is "always right" and it takes a lot for her to realize her bad marital qualities, like the terrible criticisms and biting tongue. She knows these things about herself, but it seems she forgets them sometimes, at least when dealing with me.

She had been doing some heavy lifting after the EA, as have I, but neither of us are perfect, or consistent. A friend of mine told me he thinks she wants me to see this because I am slipping again, and I need a refresher punch to the groin.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

morituri said:


> I think any movie that treats marital betrayal as a joke is not worth seeing. Laughing over another person's misfortune is not cool in my book.


CrazyStupidLove is just a movie. And there are thousands of them with that subject matter.


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## DoveInTheMud (May 25, 2011)

Keep going to MC. Her hearing an outside perspective (as opposed to from the person who hurt her) may help her to keep opening her eyes how she still treats you and how she need to accept her own 'power' in changing herself.

If she keeps being mean, bitter, etc... to you, my suggestion would be this:

Each one of you make a list of the things you most love about each other and a list of what situations look like in which you feel most connected with and loved by the other person.

Exchange those lists.

Plan time to do those things and repeat those situations and stick to it. Outside those 'good' times, do a mild version of the 180 whenever she starts being disrespectful.

I am currently trying to get my husband to the point where he would write those lists and exchange them.
I already wrote mine weeks back and am waiting for him to say 'yes' to me giving it to him (I should probaly just place it in his room without asking)


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

She's pushing you to go see this movie because:

A. She wants to hurt you more and knows this is exactly how to do it.

or

B. She in incapable of understanding that this movie with her favorite actor in it could be hurtful.

or

C. She knows it hurts but sees this movie as a way to discuss the crap she tossed into your relationship.

So which is it?


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

D: She knows it hurts but thinks it would be a good refresher for me to realize how we got here, because I'm starting to slip into past behaviors.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> CrazyStupidLove is just a movie. And there are thousands of them with that subject matter.


Still doesn't change the way I feel about these kinds of movies. You can watch them if you want, that is your choice, but I chose not to. Besides, for every one of them there are 1000 more than have nothing to do with infidelity. So I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything by not watching them. Peace.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

morituri said:


> Still doesn't change the way I feel about these kinds of movies.


Got it. 

Gabe, if you don't want to see the movie, don't go. Problem resolved. If she knows it hurts you she shouldn't continue to ask you to go see it after the fact.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Sounds like her pushing to see it is a variation of the "get over it" attitude.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

morituri said:


> I think any movie that treats marital betrayal as a joke is not worth seeing. Laughing over another person's misfortune is not cool in my book.
> 
> You know something, I wonder if the roles had been reversed (Carrell cheated), would the movie attract as many people, especially women?


Yes, when I saw the trailors it bothered me. I will see the movie with my wife. My wife did not cheat on me. So I don't have those triggers. I am preparing myself to be troubled by this movie when I see it however. If it makes fun of the BS, which I expect, I will be a little pissed. If ultimately he is seen as the cause of the cheating I will be really pissed about it. I do not think cheating is jutified. I am afraid that this movie will justify women in particular to cheat if their husband neglect them or whatever. I would not feel any better if the genders were reversed by any means so this is not women bashing. Cheating is becoming very accepted these days it seems. I am just feeling a trend.

Now I have not seen the movie so I am pre judging for sure.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

I'm going to take a completely different tact and take on what I think she was trying to accomplish. It was not to hurt you or intentionally do you damage or for all the reason listed by people. I think it was an attempt to bring to the surface something she feels is still unresolved or not fully understood by you. Separate the blame transfer when she was still in the fog and think only of the relationship for a moment. Your previous pattern between the two of you was very confrontational. She would voice her feelings and needs. You would blow a gasket. 

You say - "Bottom line is she was biting, angry, critical of me. And I was distant, unattentive and unthoughtful of her. She then would cry to me and tell me about the voids I was not filling (being more intimate, attentive, caring, etc)"

And - "But she is "always right" and it takes a lot for her to realize her bad marital qualities, like the terrible criticisms and biting tongue. She knows these things about herself, but it seems she forgets them sometimes, at least when dealing with me."

So - have you learned to listen to hear and understand her feelings? Without comments or defending your actions or getting angry? Without getting upset she used these as blame shifting after discovery? If you haven't, you haven't dealt with one her key issues that made her vulnerable - not that it caused her make bad decisions- made her vulnerable. If you haven't dealt with the vulnerablities it it possible for it to happen again. Man up and look inward. How can you stop these harsh reactions and improve yourself to eliminate this issues? Same goes for her. She tried and tried and finally shut down and quit trying BECAUSE it had no effect on you. Again never mind the affair - focus on the relationship. You taught her to avoid voicing her issues. She needs to learn to undo that and be upfront and honestly vocal with you. Not be afraid to confront you. You may not like it at first, but unless you BOTH brutally honest and open, you will go in circles and never resolve your issues. My wife was runner or avoider like your has become. She kept anger and resentment bottled up. It caused her to start falling out of love with me and be mostly angry with me. It made the OM's job so easy to get her it was pathetic - a vulnerability.

So Gabriel - you may hate what I'm saying but I think you need to do real deep introspection and serious thought into how to make this better for both of you. Your angry outbursts just drove her behind a self protective wall. Keep it up and she will quit trying to make her feeling known.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

ANd i hate to say it - but you or anyone posting here is not the center of the world. It takes two to make a marriage. Your spouse - if they are trying to reconcile with you, is not coniving and creating conspiracies. Your spouse and their feelings must also be considered and worked with along with yours. If you don't do this you are being self centered - not a recipe for success. If you keep up those beliefs, you are not taking a chance on your spouse and really trying to to move forward. You are stuck and need to get unstuck or give up. A marriage cannot be rebuilt and made better that way.

When will everyone start looking at both sides on here and stop thinking the DS is the devil incarnate when they are really trying to make amends and do the right things?


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Gabriel said:


> Dove, some of what you are saying is right on point. But my wife really did communicate with me very well, all along the way.
> 
> Bottom line is she was biting, angry, critical of me. And I was distant, unattentive and unthoughtful of her. She then would cry to me and tell me about the voids I was not filling (being more intimate, attentive, caring, etc). But this was hard for me because every argument made me the bad guy, everything was about what I did wrong. This cycle repeated many times over several years. After awhile, she felt her repeated attempts to make me change got nowhere and she gave up and drifted toward another man, a 20-year friend of hers that had never been married.
> 
> ...


That 20 year friendship probably caused 80% of the problems in your marriage. Because with her biting, being angry and critical of you she was more than likely trying to make you be like her “friend”. That “friend” has probably been “between” you and your wife for that 20 years. Two’s company, three’s a crowd and all that. You’ve had three people in your marriage, not two. Might take you a while to wake up to all that, to realise what it’s meant to your life and to come to terms with it all.

She sounds like she has a victim mentality with terms like "So I guess you're going to make me see that by myself". It is at the very least exceedingly juvenile, not what you’d expect from a mature woman.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

8yearscheating said:


> ANd i hate to say it - but you or anyone posting here is not the center of the world. It takes two to make a marriage. Your spouse - if they are trying to reconcile with you, is not coniving and creating conspiracies. Your spouse and their feelings must also be considered and worked with along with yours. If you don't do this you are being self centered - not a recipe for success. If you keep up those beliefs, you are not taking a chance on your spouse and really trying to to move forward. You are stuck and need to get unstuck or give up. A marriage cannot be rebuilt and made better that way.
> 
> When will *everyone start looking at both sides* on here and stop thinking the DS is the devil incarnate when they are really trying to make amends and do the right things?


I would only say that in my case I am the one who had the EA.
And I would be very uncomfortable if this movie makes the BS the village idiot. I suspect it will for a while but in the end show both spouses moving on with their happy lives. Hopefully by the end of the movie it will have some balance. It will show that they were responsible in their own way. BUT, I will be disappointed if they somehow show cheating as the way to do handle things.

What you are saying is certainly valid as far as the take away. It is one thing to see a movie in the privacy of ones home. I wonder how uncomfortable it will be some folks in a crowded theatre and folks are laughing when someone is having a trigger. Idunno.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

These are all great responses. Some truth in there, but I want to clear up some things. I never blew gaskets in our marriage. She would voice her complaints about me and I would take a very passive approach, as if I was just trying to withstand the storm. However, once the storm cleared, I did not do enough to meet her needs. And then it would start all over.

My wife is VERY needy and has a lot of baggage I won't go into here, but it is very serious baggage that she refuses to get help with. So my job, and yes, it is my job, is not easy. Her needs are deep and constant. But I knew this going in, so it is my fault for falling short of meeting them.

We are in a very rough patch with our R. We are having some money issues which always stresses marriages. I make over 120K, she makes like 20k part time, yet I'm the one not making enough money and have to be the bearer of bad news when the bank account is low and the next paycheck isn't for 1-2 weeks. This kind of triggered her to get down yesterday, and since then it's been kind of bad. The movie topic came up after the money thing, so that compounded it.

BTW, we've never gone to MC or IC. We've debated whether we should go. We had been doing EXTREMELY well 2 months after DDay, going toward R way faster than others, so we didn't really think we needed it (and my deductible is so high I'd be paying the first $5K myself). But it is becoming clearer after these last couple of days that we should go. My WW is fairly anti counseling. I might just go myself and see if she wants to join in later. When one spouse forces the other to go, they almost always end in D, at least in our experience with the people we know.

In the meantime, I will just focus on meeting her needs the best I can.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

Good tone and sense of direction Gabriel. Whether you blew a gasket or hid yourself, nothing got resolved. The needy part of her, needs addressed in IC or MC. You cannot be the guardian and giver all your life. I know it's expensive but divorce makes it pale in comparison. I know you can't force her, it's useless if you do. You can encourage and get friends and family to encourage.

Keep this thought in the forefront of your mind - DO NO HARM. Walk away and cool down before getting angry. Delay talking until your level headed. And don't be passive - speak you mind then give it chance to soak with her. Learn active listening with her. Listen then mirror back or paraphrase what she said but do NOT offer suggestions or help - which what we men always do and women think we are belittling and not hearing them.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Gabriel said:


> These are all great responses. Some truth in there, but I want to clear up some things. I never blew gaskets in our marriage. She would voice her complaints about me and I would take a very passive approach, as if I was just trying to withstand the storm. However, once the storm cleared, I did not do enough to meet her needs. And then it would start all over.
> 
> My wife is VERY needy and has a lot of baggage I won't go into here, but it is very serious baggage that she refuses to get help with. So my job, and yes, it is my job, is not easy. Her needs are deep and constant. But I knew this going in, so it is my fault for falling short of meeting them.
> 
> ...


I have the same financial situation with my wife. Pretty much the same amounts. I am feeling the pressure to make more. She is not pressuring me FWIW, but it has added a lot of stress to our marriage. I used to make a lot more working and then teaching in the evenings and on weekends. That was not good for our marriage either.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Pre-affair we both loved Mad Men
post-affair we didn't watch it until I finally could swallow of the philandering and cheating that takes place on the show. Took me close to two years

It's a great show, just the subject matter put me in a "bad place"
my wife understood that and didn't push
it's part of why our R worked, she would do what it took, she didn't try to get around it


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

That is good to know about Mad Men. We don't watch it and only sort of know what it's about. Now I will likely avoid. Is it the men primarily who cheat on that show?

Bottom line is any show that makes the BS look like a loser, or makes cheating look like a possible option in a marriage, I can't watch it. I had trouble with that even before all of this.

There was a film with Aniston, Mark Ruffalo and Kevin Costner that made me sick. Aniston was engaged (I think) to Ruffalo and then was swept off her feet by the older, much richer Costner. She like went to different countries with him, etc, and she eventually saw that Ruffalo was the right guy for her after all. Ruffalo took her back like she needed to figure herself out first, and all was good. It made me sick, like, thank God she picked me after her philandering!!! Barf!!!


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## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

There is NOTHING, ANYWHERE,---that can explain away, or condone the cheating

If your W, has cheated and she is trying to make the mge. work, it is on her to do ALL THE HEAVY LIFTING, short of any abuse, or slave tactics on your part----All you should have to do is say ONE TIME---that movie is a trigger for me, and I don't wanna see it----if your wife cannot/does not respect that, then she is not fully into your R.----she is still being selfish, and she is nowhere near the selfless person she needs to be to make your mge. work

Unless there is physical abuse, or extreme mental cruelty, in a mge----there is absolutely no reason for a spouse to give themselves to another in any way, shape or form---------Prior to cheating, there are the avenues of communication, counseling, interventions, and what ever else is necssary, with D. being the final straw----ALL OF THAT COMES PRIOR TO GIVING YOURSELF TO ANOTHER--------there is no excuse 

The cheater spends---days, weeks, months, years --planning, decieving, lying, to perfect their A.----In all mge's I am willing to bet the party that strayed did not spend 24 hours total in a 10 YEAR span in that mge., FORCEFULLY trying to get the other spouse to see what was wrong, and what needed to be corrected.

There is no excuse for cheating, there is no excuse for continuing to disrespect the betrayed spouse if they refuse anything due to possible pain, and suffering----anyone, anywhere who doesn't get that, has no respect for other people, and is just plain SELFISH


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Gabriel said:


> That is good to know about Mad Men. We don't watch it and only sort of know what it's about. Now I will likely avoid. Is it the men primarily who cheat on that show?
> 
> Bottom line is any show that makes the BS look like a loser, or makes cheating look like a possible option in a marriage, I can't watch it. I had trouble with that even before all of this.
> 
> There was a film with Aniston, Mark Ruffalo and Kevin Costner that made me sick. Aniston was engaged (I think) to Ruffalo and then was swept off her feet by the older, much richer Costner. She like went to different countries with him, etc, and she eventually saw that Ruffalo was the right guy for her after all. Ruffalo took her back like she needed to figure herself out first, and all was good. It made me sick, like, thank God she picked me after her philandering!!! Barf!!!


Mad Men in some ways treats the affairs realistically- his wife did find out and she had her own affair and they divorced. (all with a 60's slant with the standard sexism at the time) To me it didn't matter that they treated it with realism it just set me off and put be back where I didn't want to be.

It's a soap opera generally and drama is always created thru affairs.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

I agree with 8years that it is possible that her intentions aren't cruel, but they are self-absorbed and insensitive. Does she really believe the key to getting you to see your own faults lies within a comedy? 

She needs validation, but she also needs a healthy dose of reality. Her own emotional void doesn't validate cheating. I'm not preaching, because I see this selfishness in myself. At 24 years of marriage, my wife now realizes now that our marriage was mostly focused on her depression and needs. She wants to change this, but there's this tendency in me to want to make sure she knows how I felt. Reading your post even helps me see that I need to work harder to let this go.

It's wierd, though. I'm an alpha guy. I'm not butt ugly, and I'm in great shape, but it never occured to me that the natural outcome of this was an EA, or PA. Why would I want to stab her in the heart when I can really only blame myself for not pushing her harder to address our needs in a balanced way? Don't ever buy the argument that this was the natural outcome of the marital state.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

SAying it is all the DS souses job to do the heavy lifting assumes you are perfect and a victim that cannot heal him/herself. Your spouse can only support and comfort you. They CANNOT change your thought processes or work through the things tearing your mind apart. Yes they need to show empathy and caring and comfort. Beyond that, it is the LS job to find ways to heal themselves. The DS cannot undo the past and fix you. They also need to heal and forgive and need the LS support and comfort and encouragement to do it. IT TAKES TWO.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

Not a natural outcome - an affair is NOT natural. It is very bad decision by the DS and a loss of moral clarity and ethics that needs to be rebuilt. The DS forgiving themselves is the hardest thing to get to happen. They have to do it. Until they do, they will not be able to see the why of what they did or work on owning it. They also willl not understand how to prevent it. My point about looking inward is strictly for the marriages health and improvement. That helps reduce the vulnerabilities - the fertilizer for excuses.


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## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

Hey 8 yrs---I agree that it takes 2 to tango---but the straying partner---must do what is necessary, short of abuse, or slave tactics, to heal up the betrayed-----You have been around and I am sure you read extensively, so I know, that you know what is necessary from the straying spouse to heal up the betrayed spouse

Trust is gone, the soul is destroyed, there are visions, pain and suffering, a sub-conscious that is running wild, the betrayed spouse has much to deal with---and looking at anything that would bring that all back, especially in public---is a huge trigger

For whatever reason that she wanted to go, she asked he said ---NO---THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE END OF IT, and SHE SHOULD HAVE SEEN THAT EVEN THE DISCUSSION was hurting him----but she in her selfish way---would not relent, and kept pushing---that is why this thread is here in the 1st place, cuz she is still selfish, and she really has very little compassion, for her destroyed H.

Yes it takes 2 to make the mge work---but the cheater must go the extra mile BUT FOR---what the cheater did---there wouldn't have been a problem, and we wouldn't be here discussing!!!!!!


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

I agree she shouldn't have pushed - but no one knows precisely why she did and that is precisely where he should start. I had a trigger and blow out over the weekend. Wife wanted to use a $100 gift certificate she had from a friend (not OM) to go to dinner. The restaurant was where we went to the 50th Bday party of the OM. SHe didn't know it was a trigger until I said (poorly unfortunately) "why would I want to go to a restaurant where the ******* I would like kill had his bday party". Her intentions were innocent. In his wife's case, she had something she wanted him to get from the movie. WHAT is it?


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## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

Your wife was insensitive----that is the whole deal----unfortunately, whether anyone likes it or not----the straying spouse must go the extra mile, and should have known/thought about that her A. lover had something to do with that restauant and it would be a problem for you----A TRULY SELFLESS FULLY RESMORSEFUL CONTRITE SPOUSE WHO IS DOING THE HEAVY LIFTING ---knows everything that must be known to deal with their spouse's pain and suffering----if not they are not 100% in to the R---

As for this situation she wanted him to see something, maybe reasons why a straying spouse strays, or how things are handled----but this was just a movie, and actually you can see 100's of movies in re: infidelity at home every week---so she didn't have to push, her spouse into the pain, with her selfishness----In all actuality, I think after this movie airs, and is seen, it will be no different that most of the other movies on adultery----there may be variations on the theme, but it always ends up the same----someone strayed, someone suffered!!!!!!!!


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## ClipClop (Apr 28, 2011)

How can someone use a movie they haven't seen to open a dialog? I think she just doesn't get it. I get upset watching someone in a dangerous situation where cheating is a serious outcome. And I wasn't cheated on. This place has mad me acutely aware of the pain. It frightens me, really.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

We just had a long tough talk, but a good one. I asked her flat out, "why did you want me to see that movie"

She said, after thinking for awhile, "Because it's relevant to us."

I asked her to be more specific and she said, "Well, to show you that it's not just me." So she admitted it was really to show me that people, when pushed to the brink, sometimes cheat. And not just her. And it's a topic we could really relate to so we should see it together. It's exactly what I thought.

It's really a terrible reason. I told her I don't want to see the movie.

But we hit on many other things that were very productive. She told me the following:

- she wasn't seeking anything from the OM. She didn't go to him to complain about our marriage. They just talked more often after she had checked out, and it gradually developed.

- she knew what she was doing at the time was wrong. She has no recollection of when she officially crossed the line, it just went from only friendship stuff to deeper topics and eventually where they expressed themselves more fully but there was no "one moment"

- she mentally checked out of our marriage maybe 4-6 weeks before DDay. This was not news because I remember when she told me this back then.

- she never would have gone physical with the OM before getting a D

- she didn't know what else she could have done other than D. She came to me so many times with no results that she was just finished. She asked me if I would have rather she just served me papers and ended the marriage first. I really couldn't answer that - I don't know.

- she told the OM during their EA that if she ever left me it wouldn't be for him, but to get herself right.

- her struggle during our R is wanting to be with me for me vs doing it out of guilt. She is stuck in the middle of these two.

- she feels that if counseling fails we would just have to D - this is why she is so afraid of it, along with the fact it would drudge up her childhood molestation by her father.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

I'm so glad the honesty is beggining to open in both of you. Gabriel - go back and think about how you and her together can improve you marriage and don't look for the easy answers. Especially focus on what YOU can do because you can't control what she does. Be the better choice! Address her needs too!


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## DoveInTheMud (May 25, 2011)

8yearscheating said:


> SAying it is all the DS souses job to do the heavy lifting assumes you are perfect and a victim that cannot heal him/herself. Your spouse can only support and comfort you. They CANNOT change your thought processes or work through the things tearing your mind apart. Yes they need to show empathy and caring and comfort. Beyond that, it is the LS job to find ways to heal themselves. The DS cannot undo the past and fix you. They also need to heal and forgive and need the LS support and comfort and encouragement to do it. IT TAKES TWO.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## Saffron (Mar 7, 2010)

Gabriel said:


> - she feels that if counseling fails we would just have to D - this is why she is so afraid of it


I think this is a huge reason people are scared of going to MC when marriages first become troubled. In hindsight, my H and I should've gone years ago. However, there was always this little fear that you'll be told you're incompatible and the marriage is doomed. Or you'll find out it's all your fault and you need to be the one to make all the changes. It's scary to open yourself up to a stranger that you think will decide your fate.

Of course, now that I'm in MC, I love it and wish we had gone sooner. First of all, the MC is not the person who decides our fate. MC doesn't fail, it's the people in counseling who make or break the marriage. It's our ability to listen, grow, and be open to change that will determine whether or not our marriage will survive. 

Our MC essentially said on day one, it's up to us whether or not we want to stay married. Her goal is to make us better people as individuals, and hopefully those two people will make for a better relationship and marriage. I'm finding MC not so much about our marriage, but about us as people. Who we are and what we want to be. It's like having IC, but in front of and with your partner.

I admit that my H's affair snapped me out of whatever "fog" I was in at this stage in life, I escaped into books and the internet. I was lost and instead of facing my future, I buried my head in the sand. In my one private session with our counselor, I was snapped back into reality even more. She forced me to see my H's POV on certain issues that would've been hard to face previoulsy. It took my H's affair to wake me up, but it took our therapist to guide me back to a purpose.

It sounds like you both want this marriage and if you want it, you can have it. However, it takes an open mind and a willingness to change. 

As far as your wife "always being right", perhaps she should watch this Tedtalks segment by Kathryn Schulz "On Being Wrong." I always like to be right and found this very enlightening. 

Kathryn Schulz: On being wrong | Video on TED.com


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Gabriel,
Although your W’s OM had a lot of qualities she admired enough to stay friends with him for 20 years and to have an affair with him, she did not leave you and go and live with him. Even though the guy is not married.

And she is still with you even now.

If you can find out why she is not living with him but living with you, then you will know for certain what it is she values about you and not him. Know that and you will know exactly where you stand with your wife and what it is that motivates her to stay with you.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

When we talk at length and admit our own shortcomings we do very well. It was a great talk. Our R struggles when we go a few days without deep conversation, because what happens then is we begin to formulate impressions that may or may not be true, and we assume bad things about the other person's intentions. Hashing it out really helps a lot, even if it is exhausting or sometimes repetitive.

I did call a MC that a friend of my W uses and recommends. I liked what she had to say and will very likely make an appointment with her just to work on me. If the W wants to join in later she can, but her fears of it may keep her away. All I can do is work on me, being better for her. I can't control what she does, nor will I encourage or discourage her from attending.

BTW her rate is $115 per 50 minute session. Is that high? Low? It seemed reasonable.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

AFEH, regarding why she chose to stay with me, I think it's pretty clear. First was the kids. It's a big decision to leave your children and she is not an abandoning type of person. Second, she was scared about the financial ramifications. Even though the OM makes less money then me, he is gainfully employed with no dependents and has very little expenses. Her point on that was that she wouldn't leave me for him. She knows that wouldn't work out - she understands the 97% failure rate.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

DOn't sell yourself short Gabriel. There was love for you in there in a big way. Those things wouldn't matter a bit if she didn't love you.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

And by the way, since a friend of your W gave you name for the mC, have her work on your wife about MC.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Gabriel said:


> AFEH, regarding why she chose to stay with me, I think it's pretty clear. First was the kids. It's a big decision to leave your children and she is not an abandoning type of person. Second, she was scared about the financial ramifications. Even though the OM makes less money then me, he is gainfully employed with no dependents and has very little expenses. Her point on that was that she wouldn't leave me for him. She knows that wouldn't work out - she understands the 97% failure rate.



I hate to say this, but do you want her back based on her reason are based on financial motives and the desire to keep a 2 parent family?

I actually told my wife while we started to reconcile that she needed to really think about the reasons she wanted to stay married. I told her that if she was doing this because she wanted to keep the family intact or was afraid of how a divorce would be that I wouldn't want to go through the fruitless motions of reconciliation without love. It was important to me that she truly loved me and wanted to work on problems and that's why she wanted to stay married.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

8yearscheating said:


> DOn't sell yourself short Gabriel. There was love for you in there in a big way. Those things wouldn't matter a bit if she didn't love you.


but she needs to realize that and admit to it and profess it


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

This goes back to one of my bullet points in my other post above. She loves me, but is working on the "in love" part. She is battling inwardly on working on the R just because of guilt or if it's really because she wants ME as her husband.

I mean, she checked out of our marriage. It took her a long time to do that. It came after years of trying to get from me what she needed and me not responding enough. When it takes someone a long time and then checks out, it takes some work to fight back from that. That is what she is working on. She is hoping that with me working extra hard to meet her needs and with her working to meet mine, she will feel all that she needs to feel. Sometimes I feel a ton of love from her. But when there is a hiccup (meaning I fail to meet her needs in one instance or she feels insecure in some way) then it disappears. It's a tough process.


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## ArmyofJuan (Dec 29, 2010)

Gabriel said:


> This goes back to one of my bullet points in my other post above. She loves me, but is working on the "in love" part. She is battling inwardly on working on the R just because of guilt or if it's really because she wants ME as her husband.
> 
> I mean, she checked out of our marriage. It took her a long time to do that. It came after years of trying to get from me what she needed and me not responding enough. When it takes someone a long time and then checks out, it takes some work to fight back from that. That is what she is working on. She is hoping that with me working extra hard to meet her needs and with her working to meet mine, she will feel all that she needs to feel. Sometimes I feel a ton of love from her. But when there is a hiccup (meaning I fail to meet her needs in one instance or she feels insecure in some way) then it disappears. It's a tough process.


I’ve been through this and I found they don’t just “fall back in love” with you by you being a better husband. Once they check out the only sure fire way for them to get the passion back is the fear of losing you. They can’t force themselves to feel the passion again and when it doesn’t happen they end up giving up and leaving.

This won’t be a popular opinion but I’d say to re-awaken the passion for the M, you need to give up on it. Once she sees you are pulling away and she will lose you she will start to think about what she is losing and may panic.

“You don’t know what you got until it’s gone” they say. I think she is taken the M for granted and hasn’t giving actually losing you serious thought.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

Sorry Juan - I don't buy that. Marriages where separation occurs after an A are statistically less likely to ever make it. I got that from doctor. A straight out discussion on this topic is about all that can be done and then there needs to be a 100% effort by both. Even if that occurs, there is still a chance it may not last. But the chance has to be taken 100% by both. Threatening divorce only gets a decision made under duress, not a realistic approach. They already are trying. All they can do is bring all of the possible professional support like MC, IC and coaching to plan to try and make sure they are successful. There is absolutely NO SENSE in threatening divorce until you fully prepared to file and follow it through to the end. It appears neither one is in that position.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

Gabriel it takes time for both of you to rebuild your love. I keep saying and will say it again - fast is slow, smooth and careful is quick. Your changes and her acceptance of them as being permanent takes time. There will be mistakes by both of you and set backs. If you keep pushing forward and working to resolve the mistakes and do the right things it will be noticed, accepted and believed to be permanent so long as neither of you slips back into old habits and ways. BOTH of you need to change and grow.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

When is your first MC and IC appointments? I saw in a previous post she was willing. If you haven't set them up yet....why the H not? ALl of these things take time. The longer you wait to get started the harder it will be!


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Juan I appreciate your POV but 8 years is closer to the truth on this one. My W has said flat out, "I've thought about what it would be like to divorce, telling the kids, splitting everything up, and it makes me so sad. I thought about dropping the kids off for your turn, etc, and how much I would miss them, and you."

Ugh, great. Now I'm getting teary-eyed at work.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

You have your answer Gabriel - get off your a$$ and make those appointments!


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

If you read above in this thread you will see that she is not very willing to go to MC or IC. But I am.

She feels if MC doesn't work we would be finished, and that scares her to the point she doesn't want to go. Also, she was groped/violated by her father when she was 14 and she has never really resolved how that has affected her life. She isn't capable of facing that with IC, even now.

I have already contacted a counselor who does MC and IC so that I can go and work on my role. I can't control her desire to come with me. She may come around to joining me if I really like going and she sees that it's working for me.

I interviewed this counselor and asked a LOT of questions. She gave good responses and I've decided to book 1 appt and see what I think - shooting for Aug 4th for that appt.


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## ClipClop (Apr 28, 2011)

>>she told the OM during their EA that if she ever left me it wouldn't be for him, but to get herself right.

I think this is self delusion. It helped her justify what she was doing. If she were already in the process and planned a divorce, maybe. But in this case I think it is bull.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ClipClop (Apr 28, 2011)

BTW, I don't necessarily believe you have to drudge up details. You can discuss what often happens with the behaviours of someone who was sexually abused. And you can discuss new ways of thinking.

A therapist won't go where you don't want them to go.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

ClipClop - those are decent points, especially the 2nd one. But on the first one, I admit, I always doubted she wouldn't just run to him if we ended in D. She said she thought it would ruin her friendship with him over time. She valued that friendship more than the love part. But I still think that the instant one of us decided to D instead of R, she would reopen contact with him, if only for the support. She wouldn't get physical with him until the D happened - that part I believe - it's just not who she is to do that.

If we end up in D, my guess is she would reopen the friendship with him, but keep him at an emotional distance for awhile, maybe 6-12 months. Then she would decide if it was worth doing anything beyond that, given her life at the time. She has no delusions about him being a step dad or anything like that. He couldn't handle it.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Well good news. My wife has changed her mind and is going to come with me to counseling. Our first appointment is Thursday. 

I told her I didn't want her to come out of obligation. She said that isn't what she was doing.

She changed her mind because I told her the counselor said, "It's ideal if you both come, but I have had some success working with just one of the spouses."

I guess when she heard that she realized it was best if she came. Now we go on that roller coaster.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

It's a good start, I trust the MC is pro marriage and has techniques to help strengthen the marriage not dredging up marriage problems and starting a blame game.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

I strongly suggest you ask the marriage counselor to let your wife lead the first few sessions with what issues she has and what cocnerns she ahs about marriage counseling so she can become comfortbale with it and believe she will have a voice and be listened to. Practice two major things and learn to do them naturally. The first one is active listening. DO not interrupt her with corrections or comments, just listen. Then either repat back what she said by saying "what I heard you say was...." or just paraphrasing what she said to complete the sentence. THEN SHUT UP and let her continue. Men's natural response to womes statements are two things. One is to correct or argue, the second is to offer advice or try to fix what they said by offering solutions. NEVER interrupt or correct or argue. Never try to give your opinion or offer a solution unless she asks you to. JUST LISTEN. By doing this, she will know you are listening and trying to understand. You can ask questions to clarify - when you said this, did you mean..... but don't make it your interpretation. By doing this, she will open up a lot more and feel like you care about her opinoin and feelings. If she says what do think? Answer only in terms of how you feel - NEVER say you thought or you mean - those are your interpretations. Say, what you said made me feel like....

The secondmajor point is, NO MATTER how much what she says hurts you, DO NOT GET ANGRY or EXPLODE. You MUST ALWAYS thank her for her honesty and openness and praise her for it - repeatedly. Angry outbursts or comments, will casue her to shut down and prevent her from opening up. Even worse, it may casue her to tailor what she says to make you feel good or not hurt you. You need 100% honesty, not her hiding her feelings. 
Great news - good luck and get it going as fast as you can.

Before you leave your first appointment - make two or three more with her present and by asking first, can we make some advance appointment of your wife. DON'T FORGET


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Thanks 8years. I will let her talk/lead. That first point is a good one and something I often violate.

However, with the angry outbursts, I could copy and paste that and give it to my wife. She is the one who throws the fits, not me. I'm the calmer/more rational one of the two of us. 

I like the idea of having her express her concerns about the counseling first. This will allow the counselor to address those concerns before we really get going. This first appt is 1 1/2 hours long, then 50 mins each time after that. So we should have a lot of time.


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