# The (sometimes incompatible) paths of intimacy in marriage



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

From everything I have read, there are many different models of sexuality. We often assume something is wrong when our partner seems unable to follow some type of expectations (social or individual). Intimacy can be many things. I know of one couple that the wife refuses to have sex unless her husband sits down and listens to her about things she needs to get off her mind before she can relax. She needs to know that he understands and empathizes with the things that occupy her mind before she can let go of them and allow him to become physically close with her. 

Meanwhile when many high-desire folks (mostly husbands) talk about intimacy, they tend to already have elaborate ideas for sex going on in their minds. They would enjoy nothing more than an opening line of, "honey what would you think about trying A, B, or C tonight in bed?" Unfortunately many wives complain to no end that the last thing they want is a spouse that asks to have sex, nor do they want to know in advance what activities are going to happen once and if the moment arrives. Most wives (from what I have read) tend to enjoy a little mystery of what and when things will happen once things become sexually physically intimate. 

This has gotten me thinking a lot about emotional intimacy both sexual and nonsexual. Some people tend to lose all their mojo if any type of verbal communication occurs once sexual intimacy begins. Others meanwhile tend to thrive on it and almost want that to be the starting point. For others the thought of dirty talk being a starting point is a huge turn off. 

Being a dude, I enjoy diagrams, so I created the attached diagram to help me think through this. I wanted to ask people how they experience intimacy in marriage and if moving in certain directions through the various forms of nonsexual and sexual intimacy seem difficult and why? 

My theory is that it all comes down to stress relief and our preferred coping mechanisms. I think women have a stronger tendency to use nonsexual intimacy as a preferred form of stress relief (which likely adds to their partner's stress to go through this process). Meanwhile men like to jump straight to sexual intimacy as a means to distract themselves from stress (which likely adds to their partners stress when this happens due to feeling non emotionally disconnected in a nonsexual way). That is just my theory. Of course everyone is different and I do understand that using male and female stereotypes here is problematic. I however wanted to use that to paint a picture of stereotypical incompatibility to provoke thought on the topic. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Missing one area. Those of us that the sexual emotional IS the intercourse. Luckily my wife and i are basically the same and fit all the circles....so i guess you could say we pretty well remain in the dark grey center section.

But again we are the gooey sweet couple that are always holding hands every where. Driving downroad, walking through the store, sitting at home watching TV. 25 yrs going on 50.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

i do not know about diagrams, being more of an electronics nerd. but this might explain things a little:


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

I think you’re onto something here.

For me I feel a drive to have sex. It’s like being hungry or thirsty to me, my body tells me that I should be doing this now. For me it is usually every day, sometimes more than once a day. In the rare occasion that I am exhausted or something else is taking too much brain space I do not feel it but that is rare maybe once a month.

My wife is way more complicated. I’d say it’s maybe almost flipped around where 1-2 days a month she has that inherent drive feeling and those are the best days of the month! Other than that I can tell she has to expend energy or have a load lifted off to get to that point. Sometimes it is me listening to her. Sometimes it is a back rub. What she needs depends on how she feels that day. 

Then there are some days like yesterday where she’d rather watch crappy Xmas movies on Netflix.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

ccpowerslave said:


> Then there are some days like yesterday where she’d rather watch crappy Xmas movies on Netflix.


Jeez, what the heck is up with that!

For me, i am forced to watch the Prince of Aldovia try to court some mousey school teacher during the Aldovian Christmas carnival. every time i leave the tv room, when i come back, its hallmark channel city....


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## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

Talker67 said:


> i do not know about diagrams, being more of an electronics nerd. but this might explain things a little:
> 
> View attachment 80847


perfect


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

I thank the good God that woman aren’t wired like men. I probably wouldn’t desire my wife so hotly if she were a simpleton, open book like myself. There is something so mysterious and beautiful about her.... so thankful when her sexuality magically turns “on”.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Badsanta,

I think you are missing something. Part of what you have posted I agree with. The part that is missing is biology and family. 

Sexual intercourse with orgasms results in releases of oxytocin feel good hormones. This is sometimes referred to as the bonding or cuddling chemical. It can be used to induce a sense of trust and emotional closeness. It has a huge impact during nursing an infant in establishing the mother-child bonding. It has a huge impact in the honeymoon phase of a marriage. This hormone has even even been used to treat people with PTSD to make them more trusting and less afraid.

The other thing you have left out is once two people emotionally invest in the raising of children, they establish a link. If the welfare of small children is important to one parent, then the importance of their partner in their child's life may become so important, that they will put up with a lot, just for the sake of their child's health, and well being.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Talker67 said:


> Jeez, what the heck is up with that!
> 
> For me, i am forced to watch the Prince of Aldovia try to court some mousey school teacher during the Aldovian Christmas carnival. every time i leave the tv room, when i come back, its hallmark channel city....


I have had this exact same misfortune.

Fortunately when she got up this morning I noticed she wasn’t wearing PJs which is like her jumping up and down saying she wants to screw and the signal did not let me down.


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## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

ccpowerslave said:


> I have had this exact same misfortune.
> 
> Fortunately when she got up this morning I noticed she wasn’t wearing PJs which is like her jumping up and down saying she wants to screw and the signal did not let me down.


glad you were tuned in!


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Talker67 said:


> i do not know about diagrams, being more of an electronics nerd. but this might explain things a little:
> 
> View attachment 80847


I've seen that before and it is a good portrayal for those (both men and women) that have arousal difficulties!


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Young at Heart said:


> Badsanta,
> 
> I think you are missing something. Part of what you have posted I agree with. The part that is missing is biology and family.
> 
> ...



I realize that sexual intimacy in marriage is a very dynamic issue that is perhaps too complex for making a diagram. However what I am getting at here is the intimacy that occurs after childbearing years have gone and sex should be a celebration of the relationship. It is however an unending challenge for most. My theory here recently is that perhaps women (men sometimes as well) abuse nonsexual intimacy as a way to repeatedly unload stress, therefor making it to where husbands avoid nonsexual intimacy in favor of trying to go for something that feels good right away (sometimes gender roles are reversed but the same problem).

Schnarch talks about holding onto yourself when a spouse is struggling (perhaps with stress). So theoretically we should all be able to be great listeners when our spouses tell us about the horrors coming up later in the weekly schedule and impossible situations for which things will just suck in the next few days. But really, really do we need to unload all that in order to allow something pleasurable to happen? I mean shouldn't we all learn coping skills for stress or at least try and deal with those issues during lunch or an afternoon walk together (as opposed to just talking about how enjoyable the weather is on that given day). 

I am venting, but after more than twenty years with someone perhaps things would be easier. I once asked my wife to leave stressful topics outside the bedroom for when she knows it is our moment to make that happen. But no, she once actually started grilling me on our termite certification and that we should talk to the extermination company about bringing that document back up to date (around that time a friend was selling their home and had an issue not with termites, but the buyer wanted an up to date certificate that guaranteed the home had been regularly inspected). OK, I lost my erection!


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Dang, and here I thought I over analyze too much LOL

I presume you are talking about within the context of a LTR/marriage. One of the challenges with a relationship lasting decades and the changes that come with having kids and sick parents and career changes and changes in life-stage and health etc etc is by the time you think you've cracked some kind of code or unlocked some kind of mysterious force of desire, you're entering into a new phase of your life or some change in health status or lifestyle has occured and you're back to square one again. 

My sex life is downright unrecognizable today compared to what it was when we were first together and even night and day different from just a handful of years ago. I suppose in a number of ways it is even different in the last few months. 

I feel like I am the same person I was years ago but I know that I am not. And she is a completely different person today that she was a few years ago and is basically an alien imposter compared to who and what she was in the early stages of our marriage. If you were to ask her, she would probably say the same about me. 

Things that used to work effortlessly and great years ago, do not work at all now no matter how hard anyone tries. Things that used to be just daily discussion years ago, are basically off limits for discussion now. And there are things today that I would have never guessed in a million years before. 

In short things change. People change. We change. Yesterday is gone and tomorrow isn't here.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

badsanta said:


> I am venting, but after more than twenty years with someone perhaps things would be easier. I once asked my wife to leave stressful topics outside the bedroom for when she knows it is our moment to make that happen. But no, she once actually started grilling me on our termite certification and that we should talk to the extermination company about bringing that document back up to date (around that time a friend was selling their home and had an issue not with termites, but the buyer wanted an up to date certificate that guaranteed the home had been regularly inspected). OK, I lost my erection!


That's just one of the differences between the girls and the boys. 

A woman may be shocked and mortified if her husband were thinking about sex instead of getting the termite certification up to date in case you 'might' want to put the house up for sale some time in the next 5 years. 

Where as for a man, if a fire were to start in the kitchen at about the same time Heidi Klume walks in the front door dropping her clothes and begging for some sex action RIGHT NOW!,, a man is going to go through some calculations in his head as quick as he can determining the the speed of the spreading fire, how long it will take to place a 911 call and how long he can drop his pants, get it up, get it in and get it off compared to how long it will take the fire department to arrive on scene and get the fire under control. 

One of the biggest differences between the girls and the boys is a man's sexuality operates independently of all other things. As long as he isn’t suffocating, bleeding or burning to death at that exact moment and noone is in immediate threat of death or dismemberment in the time it will take him to get'r done, his sexuality is it's own entity and nothing else really interfers with it. 

but a woman's is tied into everything else going on in her life. if there's dishes in the sink or the kids are awake and might get into something or if there are blades of grass starting to sprout in in the cracks in the sidewalk, sex will have to wait.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> by the time you think you've cracked some kind of code or unlocked some kind of mysterious force of desire, *you're entering into a new phase of your life or some change in health status* or lifestyle has occured and you're back to square one again.


Amen. Especially as the years pile up and the health issues multiply, the challenges can become daunting. And contemplating those that haven't yet arrived but are a certainty can be depressing.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> ....by the time you think you've cracked some kind of code or unlocked some kind of mysterious force of desire, you're entering into a new phase of your life or some change in health status or lifestyle has occured and you're back to square one again.


I would argue that decades of being with the same person affords you a wider variety of tools each time you level up and things get more challenging. So that is a positive. However challenges seem to get exponentially more complex (like parents planning for retirement as if groceries for the week are just gonna be $25 to justify having enough to buy a new boat).

So while it feels like you are back at square one, you are at square one in increasingly advanced world's of problems to deal with coming at you fast. Hang on a minute I am getting a call from the campus police where my kids go to college...


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## aaarghdub (Jul 15, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> but a woman's is tied into everything else going on in her life. if there's dishes in the sink or the kids are awake and might get into something or if there are blades of grass starting to sprout in in the cracks in the sidewalk, sex will have to wait.


For the most part I agree the the Heidi Klum scenario. Post-op for two surgeries I’d have been down.

For the women’s part, I would argue that this is more a function of age and degree of anxiety experienced. As more life happens, the more mental load shedding is required. 20-something’s don’t care about termite inspections before sex’s. In the NRE or babymaking phases most are thinking proactively about sex so it isn’t an issue. 

Number of times in my 20s my partners had to load-shed… zero. In our late 40s, lots more but the new phenomenon of 45 seconds after orgasm her brain is flooded with the stuff she dumped so she is in a hurry to get dressed and get out.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

Some people love sex when they are stressed because it makes them relax and feel better, and better able to tackle the problems.

Other people like to resolve the stress in advance so they can be relaxed enough to enjoy sex.

It works best when both people in a relationship think of sex the same way, but on average, far more men fall into the first category and far more women fall into the second category. Imbalances are inevitable. Then, men feel like they have to jump through all these crazy hoops to get their women in the mood and the women just don't desire them, and the women feel like the men just want to use them for stress relief and don't actually love them.

I like your chart, as I'm also a diagram person. So I'll add one I saw recently too.



https://i.redd.it/irbxors9c0d51.jpg



So men should hack their woman's happiness chemicals to relieve their stress and get them in the mood.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

I recall venn diagrams from when was working, but honestly don't actually understand this one. 

Thankfully, wife and I have always been pretty nearly on the same page regarding intimacy. Was never a big task for either of us to get the other "in the mood". The only exception is when one or both of us has been down will some illness. Major illnesses have knocked us down from time to time. Unfortunately with advancing age, those become more frequent.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

badsanta said:


> I realize that sexual intimacy in marriage is a very dynamic issue that is perhaps too complex for making a diagram......
> 
> Schnarch talks about holding onto yourself when a spouse is struggling (perhaps with stress). ....... I mean shouldn't we all learn coping skills for stress or at least try and deal with those issues during lunch or an afternoon walk together (as opposed to just talking about how enjoyable the weather is on that given day).
> 
> I am venting, but after more than twenty years with someone perhaps things would be easier.......


I enjoy reading Schnarch as he made me think about things from a much different perspective and often that perspective could help explain things. No model or theory is perfect, but studying and thinking about many can provide one with insights that may help.

The think I keep trying to relearn so that I can do better each next time is to not let the things my wife says that get me angry, bounce off me. That is, if my wife says or does something that makes me want to get angry, I can try to control my emotions so that I don't respond in anger and that I quickly let the anger pass without allowing it to cause me to respond to it. That is a lesson on de-escalating potential conflicts.

Again, the more I read about oxytocin, the more I feel that it can play a key role in intimacy.

Article on Oxytocin

I also feel that the emotional bonding between a parent and a child or children can cause one to put the happiness and closeness to that child to become more important than the intimacy with a spouse. This one seems less strong based on all the infidelity stories of spouses with small children cheating on each other. Still I have read again and again stories of couples staying together for the children, when it is probably really to preserve their feelings of love and support of the child (children).


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> Some people love sex when they are stressed because it makes them relax and feel better, and better able to tackle the problems.
> 
> Other people like to resolve the stress in advance so they can be relaxed enough to enjoy sex.
> 
> ...


I appreciate your chart and thoughts you posted. Perhaps I am too focused on oxytocin.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> That's just one of the differences between the girls and the boys.
> 
> A woman may be shocked and mortified if her husband were thinking about sex instead of getting the termite certification up to date in case you 'might' want to put the house up for sale some time in the next 5 years.
> 
> ...


Pretty accurate! 😮😮😮


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Rus47 said:


> I recall venn diagrams from when was working, but honestly don't actually understand this one.


I know that my diagram is no where near perfect or even that usable. My goal was to provoke thought and try to get some different perspective from folks. 

For those such as yourself where things have always been easy, I wouldn't trade places to be honest. I can be in a situation where it has been a really bad day and explain to my wife that I need sexual intimacy. She knows that I will not claim that I need it unless I am struggling, so she will stop and find a way to make things happen. These days she will even do so enthusiastically (most times). I can get away with that a few times a year, but the rest have to try and happen naturally. It is however a huge importance to me that we have the tools in place emotionally to make things happen in the event I somehow become too needy. I do however have to own my neediness (which I don't mind) when that happens.


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

In the past year, my wife and I have seen a pretty dramatic shift in intimacy. We have been married for 26 years, and 25 of those, I was primary (pretty much only) instigator of physical sex. Over the years, she did do more because she knew I wanted it, but it was not from an innate desire for it.

There is all the talk about reactive desire, etc, but many times she would say that she enjoyed sex, but it is not something that she thought about or really desired.

This past year, it seems to have flipped. Whether it is me aging, job stress, life stress, whatever, my desire levels have gone down a lot. I have been on testosterone for years and monitor those things so that isn't the cause. For her, she started taking testosterone about a year and a half ago and is possibly perimenopausal. Her desire levels are off the charts now. She wants sex every day, multiple times a day, if possible.

It has been an interesting turn of events, and we both have a lot more empathy for each other. Being on one side, it is hard to see what the other side is really feeling or thinking, because, well, I am not on that side. Now that we have reversed roles, I totally get the feeling of just wanting to go to sleep!

We still have sex often, but there are times when I am not really excited about the prospect of it.

Not sure this really goes with the topic, but thought I would share.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Young at Heart said:


> The think I keep trying to relearn so that I can do better each next time is to not let the things my wife says that get me angry, bounce off me. That is, if my wife says or does something that makes me want to get angry, I can try to control my emotions so that I don't respond in anger and that I quickly let the anger pass without allowing it to cause me to respond to it. That is a lesson on de-escalating potential conflicts.


I think THAT is important. It however illustrates women expect us husbands to be able to cope with stress outside of intimacy. My wife complains to no end that I can be a grumpy person to be around but that I am nicer when I am wanting sex. This dynamic has a tendency for her to associate me being pleasant as just a way for me to manipulate her for sex (making her feel used). When I am nice she will often ask what I've got cooking and how soon am I planning to eat it (as in make my move for us to be sexually intimate). She is often condescending about the way she says that, and if often occurs when I am not even thinking about sex. For example perhaps she has had an extremely busy day and I might feel guilty that my day has been mostly relaxing. So I'll step it up to cook and clean the kitchen (mostly out of guilt). She will see the kitchen clean and make a snide remark that she is too tired for sex and for me to not get any ideas. ...this is where you and I probably both get ourselves into trouble, so I have learned that the best way to deal with it is to be overconfident and awkwardly just go ahead and validate her remark with a joke. I might tell her not to worry that she can just fall right asleep (while I make an evil grin!). 

Getting back to my chart, one of my frustrations is that if I try to match my wife and embrace nonsexual emotional and physical intimacy that it does NOT lead to sex. If I am honestly relaxed and not demonstrating that I need sex, then that is actually a turn off for her. I honestly think she needs to see me needy and unable to control myself in order for her to enjoy it. I think she likes feeling the power and control over me that my sexual neediness allows her. 

I honestly think my wife's biggest fantasy is to get me in the bedroom while I'm aroused and talk meaningfully about planning for filing taxes as well as sensitive issues for an upcoming doctor's appointment without me losing my erection. Almost as if the whole thing is a s#!t test to see just exactly how aroused I am.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Talker67 said:


> i do not know about diagrams, being more of an electronics nerd. but this might explain things a little:
> 
> View attachment 80847


I checked, I peeked under the hood.

I looked to see how many woman liked this post.

Liking 'generally' means agreeing with.

Only a few ladies liked it.
Well, maybe 10% would openly agree with it.

Yes, the truth for ladies can be daunting, embarrassing, and very much nuanced.
Justified by them.....oh yeah!

Ladies are emotional creatures, men are more often, unaffected creatures.

Ladies are picky eaters, men are more 'meat and potatoes', 'meet and put our toes together'.

.................................................

Then again, listening to @EleGirl, the numbers show that men can also be sex deny-ers.

Yes, but, IMO, men become this way after many unpleasant exchanges of vitriol, not so, those warm bodily juices.



_Lilith-_


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Tasorundo said:


> It has been an interesting turn of events, and we both have a lot more empathy for each other. Being on one side, it is hard to see what the other side is really feeling or thinking, because, well, I am not on that side. Now that we have reversed roles, I totally get the feeling of just wanting to go to sleep!


There are some psychologists that suggest that this dynamic of reversing roles tends to be persistent throughout the course of the relationship. Most couples however fail to recognize where and how this exists as a way to acknowledge and empathize with the other. 

So for example imagine a couple that is male HD / female LD for sex. Meanwhile they are male LD / female HD for travel. Somehow at some point BOTH of those roles have to flip for there to be this epiphany and improved understanding/empathy of what they have done to each other. 

Want to go to the beach? Can we just stay home and have sex? 

If I go to the beach with you will there be sex? If I stay home and have sex with you will there be beach? 



Badsanta


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

badsanta said:


> There are some psychologists that suggest that this dynamic of reversing roles tends to be persistent throughout the course of the relationship. Most couples however fail to recognize where and how this exists as a way to acknowledge and empathize with the other.
> 
> So for example imagine a couple that is male HD / female LD for sex. Meanwhile they are male LD / female HD for travel. Somehow at some point BOTH of those roles have to flip for there to be this epiphany and improved understanding/empathy of what they have done to each other.
> 
> ...


How about "lets go to the beach and have sex there?" Did that several times in our younger times


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

badsanta said:


> There are some psychologists that suggest that this dynamic of reversing roles tends to be persistent throughout the course of the relationship. Most couples however fail to recognize where and how this exists as a way to acknowledge and empathize with the other.


I think that is a good point, and going even beyond marriage, the lack of people to be able to 'walk a mile in someone elses' shoes' is an issue.

My wife and I have had many conversations about the reversal this year. Often times, she tears up and thanks me for not leaving all those years. I feel the same towards her though, imagine being pestered to do something you do not want to do all the time! Then also feeling like you have to do it. It easily devolves into an explosive dynamic where everyone is the victim and there is no way to repair it.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Rus47 said:


> How about "lets go to the beach and have sex there?" Did that several times in our younger times


When you get older there is no sex at the beach. Just a hotel room full of family, no privacy, a schedule full of attractions to visit, and no where to park.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Tasorundo said:


> My wife and I have had many conversations about the reversal this year. Often times, she tears up and thanks me for not leaving all those years. I feel the same towards her though, imagine being pestered to do something you do not want to do all the time! Then also feeling like you have to do it. It easily devolves into an explosive dynamic where everyone is the victim and there is no way to repair it.


So now that roles have reversed, if you had to imagine a diagram of the various forms of intimacy and see a path of what you prefer to experience, could you describe how that path has changed?

Do you now crave more nonsexual intimacy and less sexual intimacy. Do you avoid nonsexual intimacy out of concern it will trigger your wife to want sexual intimacy?


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

badsanta said:


> When you get older there is no sex at the beach. Just a hotel room full of family, no privacy, a schedule full of attractions to visit, and no where to park.


I bet we are way older than you are, so we are past the room full of family. We have returned to life and recreation as it was before kids. Just the two of us again, do what we want when we want. "The last of life for which the first was made:". Sex on the beach would be possibility again if could find a secluded beach like when we were young. Alas, they no longer exist.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

badsanta said:


> So now that roles have reversed, if you had to imagine a diagram of the various forms of intimacy and see a path of what you prefer to experience, could you describe how that path has changed?
> 
> Do you now crave more nonsexual intimacy and less sexual intimacy. *Do you avoid nonsexual intimacy out of concern it will trigger your wife to want sexual intimacy?*


I can't imagine the diagram to depict a path, guess am out of practice after being retired long from the work world. 

Absolutely not. Embrace intimacy in any form. As horny as ever was. If she wants sexual intimacy, I am here to please.


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

badsanta said:


> So now that roles have reversed, if you had to imagine a diagram of the various forms of intimacy and see a path of what you prefer to experience, could you describe how that path has changed?


Previously, I would say that I was ready to go from any point on the diagram. I think now, it isn't so much that I do not like any of the places on there, and I really do still think about and enjoy sex with my wife, but there is something about it. It is more chore like, and even though I love her and find her attractive, I feel like for us to have a mutually satisfying encounter it requires a level of effort from me, that I might not always feel like putting in. So, in that sense, I would rather do all of the things that lead to it, but just go to bed instead sometimes!



badsanta said:


> Do you now crave more nonsexual intimacy and less sexual intimacy. Do you avoid nonsexual intimacy out of concern it will trigger your wife to want sexual intimacy?


I would say those are about that same for me. Over the years, I have been conditioned out of nonsexual touching, as it was not something she wanted. She now regrets that and she desires it, as well as more frequent kissing or touching. It is funny, but she will walk by me and grab my butt, or something and I think about all of the threads here where a wife is mad about that stuff. It does not bother me, more of just a funny thing that it makes me think of.

I appreciate her desire for me and I need to work on getting mine back to matching it.

Part of the odd dynamic of the wife being HD is that it is harder to satisfy a woman than a man (in general). Most guys, you do a little touching, some sex, or oral, and it is guaranteed that it will end with an O. Women, not so much, so that part weighs on it as well. She is on a med for blood pressure and since she started that, it has had a very negative effect on her ability O.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> Some people love sex when they are stressed because it makes them relax and feel better, and better able to tackle the problems.
> 
> Other people like to resolve the stress in advance so they can be relaxed enough to enjoy sex.
> 
> ...


Yeah, because every woman dreams of having sex with a tense, stressed out guy in a bad mood looking for an anger dump. Right on the nose. Play some heavy metal, FFS! That's what I used to do, and I'd do it on my way home so I'd already be chill when I got home and not scare my dog.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Tasorundo said:


> *I appreciate her desire for me* and I need to work on getting mine back to matching it.


At the end of the day I think THAT is ultimately what folks with higher desire could use. The idea that you want to improve your desire is great, but you likely genuinely convey that you enjoy her desiring you rather than rejecting that in a stressful way. That is important in my opinion. 

That has been a big change in my marriage with roles reversed. My wife's desire is still lower than mine. However these days she enjoys my advances and playfulness as I have worked to try and attribute my desire for her as something that makes her feel confident about herself. She can also reject my advances which has required me to work on my self confidence a great deal. She might laugh and tell me she is not in the mood and that she just wants some sleep. I will tell her not to worry because I am confident that I how to work with that and still make it happen for her (to which I usually get a giggle). What she will do now that she never used to do is to then enjoy a small amount of mild sexual intimacy to give me something to think until the next day. Then she claims I will enjoy it that much more tomorrow once she is not too tired (which she is correct and follows through). I do enjoy that!


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## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

badsanta said:


> At the end of the day I think THAT is ultimately what folks with higher desire could use. The idea that you want to improve your desire is great, but you likely genuinely convey that you enjoy her desiring you rather than rejecting that in a stressful way. That is important in my opinion.
> 
> That has been a big change in my marriage with roles reversed. My wife's desire is still lower than mine. However these days she enjoys my advances and playfulness as I have worked to try and attribute my desire for her as something that makes her feel confident about herself. She can also reject my advances which has required me to work on my self confidence a great deal. She might laugh and tell me she is not in the mood and that she just wants some sleep. I will tell her not to worry because I am confident that I how to work with that and still make it happen for her (to which I usually get a giggle). What she will do now that she never used to do is to then enjoy a small amount of mild sexual intimacy to give me something to think until the next day. Then she claims I will enjoy it that much more tomorrow once she is not too tired (which she is correct and follows through). I do enjoy that!


She follows thru next day? Nice


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

badsanta said:


> .............I honestly think she needs to see me needy and unable to control myself in order for her to enjoy it. I think she likes feeling the power and control over me that my sexual neediness allows her.
> 
> I honestly think my wife's biggest fantasy is to get me in the bedroom while I'm aroused and talk meaningfully about planning for filing taxes as well as sensitive issues for an upcoming doctor's appointment without me losing my erection. Almost as if the whole thing is a s#!t test to see just exactly how aroused I am.


Two comments, I know for a fact that when I am really aroused to the point that I loose control and ravish her body, if she is in the right mood, her libido feeds off of my animal passion. Some of the best sex we have had happens when my arousal feeds her arousal and we end up ravishing each other. That could be a slightly different interpretation to your point above.

Second, if that is your wife's biggest fantasy, then you married a really kinky woman who has either a strong interest in tease and denial or in domination. In either case, you are a lucky guy to have married such a kinky woman. (Just joking, but seriously, look at your glass as half full.)


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Tasorundo said:


> In the past year, my wife and I have seen a pretty dramatic shift in intimacy. We have been married for 26 years, and 25 of those, I was primary (pretty much only) instigator of physical sex. Over the years, she did do more because she knew I wanted it, but it was not from an innate desire for it.
> 
> There is all the talk about reactive desire, etc, but many times she would say that she enjoyed sex, but it is not something that she thought about or really desired.
> 
> ...


How often are you taking shots and dose?


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

Divinely Favored said:


> How often are you taking shots and dose?


Pellets and I get 5 of them every 4 months. We test so that my levels are always above 500.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Longtime Hubby said:


> She follows thru next day? Nice


Historically NO. She used to promise to make time for us the next day and repeatedly break that promise. Sometime continually rescheduling until I would just give up and stop expecting anything (usually followed by some passive aggressive tantrums from me to try and make her life miserable). 

That finally changed after we got into a rather intense but constructive argument about the topic. At the core of this argument was coming to an agreement on how to compromise over our mismatched frequencies for how often we want sex. She honestly conveyed to me the maximum amount she can actually enjoy. I conveyed honestly the least amount that I need to not end up frustrated and resentful. From that starting point we worked out how to compromise and the realistic expectations of what we can ask from one another when needed. We are both needy in very different ways and we can now each own our neediness within a workable framework that helps prevent us from becoming resentful towards the other. Call it a system of "resentment prevention" that goes both ways. As long as that remains in place, YES she does follow through the next day. In the rare event it doesn't happen it is genuinely because something happens the following day that is unexpected and disruptive towards our ability to enjoy some private time alone with one another (like a family member having to come home from school unexpectedly due to current events). 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

Ahh, to be young again and have sex anytime and anywhere and not really have to convince anyone to have it...


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## aaarghdub (Jul 15, 2017)

I’m curious if during premarital counseling they ever say something to the effect, “you realize of course in the next few years, there’s a high likelihood that the person sitting next to you right now will think sex with you (and your sexuality in general) is crude, gross and a chore.”


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Tasorundo said:


> Pellets and I get 5 of them every 4 months. We test so that my levels are always above 500.


500 is fairly low. I think the bottom of the scale is 350 or 400. Upper level is 1250 i believe. Both Drs i have been to keep me above 1100. Said men feel best around 1200. Be 50 next month and I take .5ml 2x week. Dropped down from .55 ml 2x week as my level got up to 1500. Urologist said my free test level is at ?34 and is higher than his. He is about 6-7 yrs younger than i. Take D3 2x day as it helps Levels.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Ahh, to be young again and have sex anytime and anywhere and not really have to convince anyone to have it...


Luckily i dont even say Boo! And my wife jumps(my bones). I had to tell her she better stop this morning or she will be required to complete what she started and we are both going to be an hour late for work.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

aaarghdub said:


> I’m curious if during premarital counseling they ever say something to the effect, “you realize of course in the next few years, there’s a high likelihood that the person sitting next to you right now will think sex with you (and your sexuality in general) is crude, gross and a chore.”


Interestingly enough the Catholic priest that did our premarital counseling (aka Pre-Cana), he did get into addressing all the common problems that occur in marriage including the understanding of what are realistic sexual expectations in marriage. I would say the advice was rather accurate regardless if you are religious or not. 

Now on the other hand the ability for an unmarried man (priest) to meaningfully convey this important wisdom to a rather inexperience man in life such as myself that is about to be married... well that part was gravely underestimated by the church. I can only begin to appreciate the advice many decades later in hindsight. 

As Hans and Franz would say, "Hear me now and believe me later!"


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

Divinely Favored said:


> 500 is fairly low. I think the bottom of the scale is 350 or 400. Upper level is 1250 i believe. Both Drs i have been to keep me above 1100. Said men feel best around 1200. Be 50 next month and I take .5ml 2x week. Dropped down from .55 ml 2x week as my level got up to 1500. Urologist said my free test level is at ?34 and is higher than his. He is about 6-7 yrs younger than i. Take D3 2x day as it helps Levels.


I will bring it up at my next appointment and blood work.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

An update on this thread and some thoughts...

Generally speaking when my wife and I are intimate, she complains if I try to go straight into the action. So we usually spend time talking and cuddling (various forms of mostly nonsexual intimacy) before she seems open to me attempting something more. 

Well recently I tried an experiment and came onto her rather strong and right away. Purposely avoiding all forms of nonsexual intimacy. She initially complained that I was barking up the wrong tree and that there was no chance of anything happening. Using my strategy of unrealistic overconfidence, I reassured her that I was indeed barking up the right tree and that there indeed was something in the tree. There is a reference in the bible about coconut trees, so I did claim that I was worried that a coconut might fall from the tree and hit me in the head, but ultimately that would prove that "something" was up in the tree. I got her to giggling and eventually one thing led to another rather quickly. 

This got me to thinking that when we do spend time talking beforehand that she often still has trouble transitioning from that to actually being in the mood to enjoy things. I have read that one of the primary problems that women experience is the difficulty of "letting go" in their mind of all the thoughts of the day. An example might be to stop worrying about tomorrow's busy schedule or some emotionally drama with family/friends. It is my understanding that women are easily distracted by those thoughts that it can create difficulty for the body to become aroused, especially when things are somewhat routine and predictable in the bedroom. 

Every couple seems to always be searching for some something to spice things up and create a little spark. I am starting to thing that this "elusive spark" is mostly the notion of distracting the overactive mind and getting a spouse's undivided attention in a way that is conducive for sexual intimacy. 

I am now imagining my wife's mind to that of a classroom full of unruly students that are loud and always talking over one another. By embracing nonsexual intimacy beforehand to talk and understand everything going on, I wonder if that only makes the problem worse? Does talking about issues with a spouse that has trouble letting go of thoughts only serve to ramp up those thoughts and make them even more challenging to overcome? Perhaps not always but I do wonder if that is what is going on. 

Perhaps this is why women (OK men too) tend to enjoy some element of surprise and mystery when it comes to romance. Is it these things that help distract and focus an otherwise overactive mind? 

Afterwords I started reading and researching about "arousal difficulties" in women. I stumbled across a very good website on this topic that at first I thought was nonsense, but the research actually seems fairly well based in reality from everything I have read:





__





Female Sexual Interest/Arousal Disorders







labs.la.utexas.edu





I started exploring around on that website and they have a lot of resources regarding sexuality and research (sounds like fun!) and I noticed that one of the main people of this program wrote a book titled, "Why Women Have Sex." So I have ordered a copy. My wife actually encourages me to read books on sexuality as long as the author has a Ph. D. So this book makes it to the approved list for me to read! 



https://labs.la.utexas.edu/mestonlab/1908-2/



So I'll give that book a good read and discuss what I find. It may not be all that related to arousal difficulties, but should be a good review on the model of female sexuality. I am a great at miscommunication, so perhaps there is something obvious I have been missing all these years that could prove to be a dynamic that I need to educate myself about some more. I always enjoy a good book on sexuality regardless, especially ones written from an academic perspective. 

Regards, 
Badsanta

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## Bulfrog1987 (Oct 8, 2021)

Young at Heart said:


> Badsanta,
> 
> I think you are missing something. Part of what you have posted I agree with. The part that is missing is biology and family.
> 
> ...



This is literally me right now. Enduring and suffering for the sake of my child.


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## Julie's Husband (Jan 3, 2022)

Tasorundo said:


> In the past year, my wife and I have seen a pretty dramatic shift in intimacy. We have been married for 26 years, and 25 of those, I was primary (pretty much only) instigator of physical sex. Over the years, she did do more because she knew I wanted it, but it was not from an innate desire for it.
> 
> There is all the talk about reactive desire, etc, but many times she would say that she enjoyed sex, but it is not something that she thought about or really desired.
> 
> ...



Enjoy it. Menopause kills women's libido for the most part. Many women, like my wife, have thinning of the vaginal walls that makes intercourse too painful to manage. It sounds like you may be entering male menopause with the reduced libido.


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## Julie's Husband (Jan 3, 2022)

A number of comments and observations.

I am 76, have just completed treatment of prostate cancer. Part of the treatment is hormone therapy AKA temporary chemical castration. My wife is post menopausal and unable to have intercourse. I did not really understand this, but put up with over 20 years of celibacy, including 14 years of total lack of intimacy. When I learned I would be castrate and needed help producing daily erections to prevent atrophy, we had an amazing conversation and we have a new and beautiful intimacy.

So first thing is that the OP is over generalizing and stereotyping. I am going to a shrink and one of the subjects is that people do not understand how I think; they assume I react like the male stereotype. This irritates me as it dismisses experiences I found to be traumatic.

Second, Youngheart's comment that one partner's libido feeds off the other partner's libido. True. Men who are castrate do not realize they can have sex until a partner needs pleasuring. They find that pleasuring their partner arouses them to have intercourse. Since my wife is post menopausal I need to be her libido by arousing her. We can't have intercourse, but we can have intimacy.

Third, Tasarundo mentions hormone replacement which leads to several thoughts. 

First is that while castrate I learned to become aroused without testosterone driving libido. Testosterone is not needed for any part of intercourse other than arousal. A large portion of our sexuality is in our minds so we can substitute erotic fantasy and physical stimulation for testosterone.

Second is that the total testosterone is not the only criteria. We have SHBG (sex hormone binding globulin) in our systems that ties up testosterone so that the level of testosterone available biologically may be below the overall level. I have a low, but workable level of testosterone (300 to 400), but it is not all biologically available due to a high normal level of SHBG. At an endocrinologist's suggestion I am taking 10 mg boron daily to reduce the level of SHBG.

I have a very strong focus on intercourse or intimacy, though at this point I don't know how much is from testosterone and how much is from a habit developed during 6 months of castration. Actually, though, my pleasure is to be sexually aroused so cuddling in a coital position is heaven for me. Orgasm come when they come.


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## aaarghdub (Jul 15, 2017)

badsanta said:


> This got me to thinking that when we do spend time talking beforehand that she often still has trouble transitioning from that to actually being in the mood to enjoy things. I have read that one of the primary problems that women experience is the difficulty of "letting go" in their mind of all the thoughts of the day. An example might be to stop worrying about tomorrow's busy schedule or some emotionally drama with family/friends. It is my understanding that women are easily distracted by those thoughts that it can create difficulty for the body to become aroused, especially when things are somewhat routine and predictable in the bedroom.


I can relate to this. My wife has ADHD and anxiety so unless she’s in the mood and focused on sex it’s not even as remotely desirable as running to Target. Her brain is constantly going and sex is the least of her concerns. 

30 seconds post-orgasm and her brain’s back at it, getting dressed pretty quick so there is very little “after care” besides a kiss and a towel thrown at me. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

aaarghdub said:


> I can relate to this. My wife has ADHD and anxiety so unless she’s in the mood and focused on sex it’s not even as remotely desirable as running to Target. Her brain is constantly going and sex is the least of her concerns.
> 
> 30 seconds post-orgasm and her brain’s back at it, getting dressed pretty quick so there is very little “after care” besides a kiss and a towel thrown at me.
> 
> ...


There was a time that my wife and I scheduled intimacy for almost an entire year. We both learned a lot from it and in particular how much time to set aside so that we could both fully enjoy connecting with one another. Between snuggling, foreplay, sex, and aftercare we found that we needed at least an hour and a half to fully enjoy it. 

From some of the things I read here on TAM there are some folks that are married where intimacy lasts no more that fifteen minutes start to finish. For me that would not feel like real intimacy but more so as if it were just a quick form of assisted masturbation without establishing any emotional connection. Some couples can do this and maintain a strong emotional connection throughout the day. However my wife and I often have schedules taking us in opposite directions everyday, so it takes us a while to connect and enjoy that connection intimately. 

So if your wife has ADHD, try scheduling things and allowing some time. Advanced notice should give you time to plan something different and novel to help distract her mind and focus it on the two of you. Don't set your expectations too high as it is a learning experience where you will need to embrace failure as an opportunity to learn new things about one another.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Julie's Husband said:


> A number of comments and observations.
> 
> So first thing is that the OP is over generalizing and stereotyping. I am going to a shrink and one of the subjects is that people do not understand how I think; they assume I react like the male stereotype. This irritates me as it dismisses experiences I found to be traumatic.


Fascinating post! Thanks for sharing. Perhaps I do overgeneralize sometimes, but that is part of my process to focus on something and see what rattles out in a conversation. 

I have read about couples where one person has a spinal injury and has no sensations from the waist down. Believe it or not these individuals can still experience creative forms of sexual intimacy along with erotic sensations. From my understanding the mind is a very capable sex organ and can even rewire itself to experience intimacy and pleasure in new ways. 

To overgeneralize this is often described as a form of tantric sex that is mostly meditational and guided/stimulated with energized touching. To be very specific one individual described that he could experience stimulation on his thumb as if his penis was being stimulated to orgasm. This obviously led to some creative scenarios that would probably make us all jealous and want that type of super power with our brains for a day to experience what that would be like.

Everyone is different and the brain is a very capable and amazing thing for achieving intimacy and a connection with someone!


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

badsanta said:


> There was a time that my wife and I scheduled intimacy for almost an entire year. We both learned a lot from it and in particular how much time to set aside so that we could both fully enjoy connecting with one another. Between snuggling, foreplay, sex, and aftercare we found that we needed at least an hour and a half to fully enjoy it.
> 
> From some of the things I read here on TAM there are some folks that are married where intimacy lasts no more that fifteen minutes start to finish. For me that would not feel like real intimacy but more so as if it were just a quick form of assisted masturbation without establishing any emotional connection. Some couples can do this and maintain a strong emotional connection throughout the day. However my wife and I often have schedules taking us in opposite directions everyday, so it takes us a while to connect and enjoy that connection intimately.
> 
> So if your wife has ADHD, try scheduling things and allowing some time. Advanced notice should give you time to plan something different and novel to help distract her mind and focus it on the two of you. Don't set your expectations too high as it is a learning experience where you will need to embrace failure as an opportunity to learn new things about one another.


15 minutes? Hehehe.
Say afternoon, or most of an evening, and all morning before having to get out and about.

And it's great to have intermissions at times between her Os.


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