# Was this rape?



## OnlyQueen (Oct 19, 2013)

Apparently this guy is sharing his story of what happened to him 6 years ago when he was 19. Since you would have to have a user name in in order to for the link to appear, here is what he stated:

_I'm sure many people remembered their first time having sex with their bf/gf as something enjoyable and valuable. Though I'm no longer with her and we broke up for several other reasons too, I never really told anyone when I lost my virginity to her. It feels weird to even talk about it but would like to share my story here. Please bear with me as it might be a bit long but I'll try to make it as short as possible. 

Flashback: 
I was then 19 years old and had been dating my then gf for nearly 3 months. Unlike other guys, this might sound strange but I actually didn't felt ready and wanted to wait (she wasn't a virgin but understood, well that's what I thought). Anyone one day, a couple of our friends, a cousin, my gf and I went to a frat party. 
At some point I got totally wasted and so was just with my gf by then. Afterwards I only recalled my gf coming with two glasses and saying it was to make me feel better. Strangely, several minutes or so after drinking my glass I got even more sleepy and pretty much blackout. 

Then till this day, I don't recall this to well:
Several moments must have passed by then but I was still drunk with a headache and not feeling too well when I woke up. My then gf was on top of me and I found myself having sex. It felt very weird to be honest but then since my gf kept saying that I told her I was ready, we talked and it just happened. I found myself asking I did? and she said yes, I did so I assumed that since she said that and I still had an erection, I must have liked it.

The following weeks, I did confronted her about it but again, she reassured me that I was ready and then told me to just forget about it. I stopped bringing it up but once in a while it was still there at the back of my mind. This is one of the reasons I broke it off two years later. 

Present time:
I still don't see my first time as very meaningful and not too sure if I was really ready at that moment. This might sound strong but certain times, I feel as if she took advantage of my state of mind. I keep wondering if I would have been ready had I been sober and fully aware. Or is drunk sex very common in relationships and I'm making a big deal out of it? _

Apparently the guy still doesn't feels good about it sounds like he's confused about it still and doesn't remembers being ready.


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## OnlyQueen (Oct 19, 2013)

What I do know is it would definitely be called raped if the virgin was the girl and her bf takes her virginity while drunk and unconscious.

In this story, it's a guy explaining he was the drunken virgin but apparently passed out after his gf gives him something to drink. Then wakes up finishing sex with his gf on top of him and he can't explain how it happened and seems confused.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

yes but you'd never be able to prove it even if he reported it right away


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## OnlyQueen (Oct 19, 2013)

Almostrecovered said:


> yes but you'd never be able to prove it even if he reported it right away


True since rape is usually defined as forced penetration. It's quite surprising that a guy can still get hard and hit it even when he's knocked out unconscious. 

I really thought a guy has to be at least half awaken to get hard.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

I picked it was rape.....based on giving the story full trust.

The issue is I'm struggling with this story. I own my pessimism and if this wasn't an anonymous forum, I wouldn't even say it....but this story sounds a little "iffy".

Could it happen, sure. Would it surprise me...no. But It's hard for me to imagine a woman, who's in a long term relationship, date r4ping her boy friend.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

yes, this isn't exactly what you'd call a common event but by no means do I wish to downplay the real trauma of rape


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

OnlyQueen said:


> True since rape is usually defined as forced penetration. It's quite surprising that a guy can still get hard and hit it even when he's knocked out unconscious.
> 
> I really thought a guy has to be at least half awaken to get hard.


I've woken up with a kickstand 99% of the time for the last 28 years or so...so no, you don't have to be awake.


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## OnlyQueen (Oct 19, 2013)

The story comes from this link:

Sexual & Reproductive Health and Practices - LoveShack.org Community Forums

Just that since it's posted on the sex section, that's a private section that it's posts are visible when someone is a registered user. Once in a while I do go to loveshack.org site and yes this is really practically the first time I've heard a guy raped by his gf.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

Yes, she raped him.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> yes, this isn't exactly what you'd call a common event but by no means do I wish to downplay the real trauma of rape


I completely agree and am only voicing my disbelief because it's a hearsay type situation and the person in it isn't telling the story. 

But assuming this true....it's 100% rape.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Dad&Hubby said:


> I've woken up with a kickstand 99% of the time for the last 28 years or so...so no, you don't have to be awake.


but whiskey d!ck isn't exactly from being asleep

it's plausible but not likely


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## Cronos1247 (Sep 3, 2014)

I voted no just because I could see a guy getting smashed and saying he wants to have sex, wouldn't consider it rape.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

It feels like a question purposely constructed to bring out a debate, particularly since CA enacted new rape laws that require verbal consent


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

drunk passed out ....might be hard to get hard..

sounds fishy to me.


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## OnlyQueen (Oct 19, 2013)

Almostrecovered said:


> It feels like a question purposely constructed to bring out a debate, particularly since CA enacted new rape laws that require verbal consent


I was curious because this is something new to me, that a girl has sex with her drunken, passed out bf. 

I'm actually from FL.


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## OnlyQueen (Oct 19, 2013)

chillymorn said:


> drunk passed out ....might be hard to get hard..
> 
> sounds fishy to me.


True. I think she would have to be like this woman:

No Cookies | dailytelegraph.com.au

This woman did something to somehow managed to keep the guy's penis erected. Needlessly to say shocked to hear that it can still happened to a man.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

If some one is to the point of blacking out, they cannot consent, whether it self inflicted via alcohol or drugs, or and especially if they were roofied.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Almostrecovered said:


> yes, this isn't exactly what you'd call a common event but by no means do I wish to downplay the real trauma of rape


He could've gotten her pregnant or caught and STD or AIDS.


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## HappyGilmore (Jul 20, 2014)

I voted "yes." Any time that a person is unconscious and not in control of his faculties, and another person performs sexual acts on this person, it is rape.

While possible, I don't believe it is very common--though I have heard of this happening.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

HappyGilmore said:


> I voted "yes." Any time that a person is unconscious and not in control of his faculties, and another person performs sexual acts on this person, it is rape.
> 
> While possible, I don't believe it is very common--though I have heard of this happening.


If a couple had verbally agreed that sleeping sex was "ok", then I think it could bypass being rape. Some couples allow for it.


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

OnlyQueen said:


> True since rape is usually defined as forced penetration. It's quite surprising that a guy can still get hard and hit it even when he's knocked out unconscious.
> 
> I really thought a guy has to be at least half awaken to get hard.


I always wake up with a woody.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Thound said:


> I always wake up with a woody.


I think if she oraled him or hj'd him while he was sleep if he was in a deep enough sleep, it could be incorporated into a dream. So that he wouldn't wake up, but his member would become erected.


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## murphy5 (May 1, 2014)

that reminds me of the old joke:

Man stumbles out of bar, totally **** faced

wanders down the street

Needs to drain the lizard, does so, but then flops onto a park bench with his member exposed, and passes out

early next morning a young woman was walking thru the park, is shocked to see this display, but then smiles, reaches into her purse, takes out a blue ribbon bow, and ties it to his member. She walks away chuckling

Later the drunk wakes up, looks down, is stunned, then says "I am not sure where the heck you was last night, little man, but I am proud you won first prize!"


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Was the gf very drunk as well?

I don't buy the story. As others have said, it's worded as a story to turn the tables on a situation in which women are often raped when drunk.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
First, for the sake of discussion assume the story is true. (no way to know)

He felt like he was raped - he found himself having sex without consent. This can be just as important to men as to women. He was at risk of fatherhood, STDs, etc.

It is possible - men, especially young men, can get involuntary erections. An erection is no more a sign of consent that lubrication or even orgasm in a woman.

Female on male rape is much less common than male on female, but it does happen. It can also be traumatic - additionally so because of the common "you lucky dog" reaction. Same one a woman might get if she were raped by the high school football star - and equally offensive. 

He probably could not get a conviction based on the available evidence, but that doesn't mean that the rape didn't happen.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> Was the gf very drunk as well?
> 
> I don't buy the story. As others have said, it's worded as a story to turn the tables on a situation in which women are often raped when drunk.


Unfortunately this day and age, there are groups of women doing some of the heinous and irresponsible things that young men used to do or stumble into.

There are reports of male rapes in Africa by groups of women, probably to pay men back, but it's happening all over the world.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Yes, he was raped and his girlfriend deserves to be soundly spanked. He should give her my number.


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## HappyGilmore (Jul 20, 2014)

treyvion said:


> If a couple had verbally agreed that sleeping sex was "ok", then I think it could bypass being rape. Some couples allow for it.


Sure, but I think the impression of this article is that she roofied him and next thing he knew, he was having sex against his will. And I don't think there was an agreement that sleep sex was okay.

Not that I completely believe that this story is true. It may be, or it may not be. In any event, if this situation occurred as described, I would say that it was rape.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

I have to believe that this was a story playing on double standards but I'll pretend for a moment that I believe it. In that case, I feel bad for the guy because being taken advantage of or being tricked sucks. And in that case, it's also technically considered rape which has to be more difficult to find support for a guy.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

I know a gay guy who claims he was raped by a woman when he was passed out drunk. Similar to this story, he woke up with his pants off and her riding him.

She was a close friend and he broke off all relations with her. I have no idea why a gay guy would make up a story like this and he wasn't one to embellish so I believe it.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

I think different guys are affected differently by drinking. I've been VERY, VERY drunk but haven't suffered from ED problems that many men have had. 

I've pulled double and triple headers while totally ripped.


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## Convection (Apr 20, 2013)

larry.gray said:


> I know a gay guy who claims he was raped by a woman when he was passed out drunk. Similar to this story, he woke up with his pants off and her riding him.
> 
> She was a close friend and he broke off all relations with her. I have no idea why a gay guy would make up a story like this and he wasn't one to embellish so I believe it.


Larry, there is a member of this forum who stated they felt physically forced into sex by their ex-wife and found the experience very traumatic. I have no reason to disbelieve them.

The actions described in the original post are sexual assault. Gender of either party is irrelevant.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Is it considered a breach of trust to share his story here (even though it's anonymous) openly when normally you'd need to be a registered member on another site to view it?


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## Convection (Apr 20, 2013)

I only shared what he himself openly posted in a non-private forum, though it would take some digging to find it (if the thread even exists any more). I don't know any more details than that.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Convection said:


> I only shared what he himself openly posted in a non-private forum, though it would take some digging to find it (if the thread even exists any more). I don't know any more details than that.


I meant the opening post.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

Taken at face value, it would be rape.


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## justaguy123 (Aug 20, 2014)

treyvion said:


> He could've gotten her pregnant or caught and STD or AIDS.


Caught STD / AIDS, yes... get her pregnant... not so much.

As a guy, even with morning wood, there is no way there is semen coming out (more like pee) unless you're actively aroused and going at it...


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## justaguy123 (Aug 20, 2014)

heartsbeating said:


> Is it considered a breach of trust to share his story here (even though it's anonymous) openly when normally you'd need to be a registered member on another site to view it?


Nah... if it's posted online, it's open for all to see. This is why it's smart to stay anonymous as much as possible online.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

larry.gray said:


> I think different guys are affected differently by drinking. I've been VERY, VERY drunk but haven't suffered from ED problems that many men have had.
> 
> I've pulled double and triple headers while totally ripped.


Ive had sloppy drunk sex quite a lot myself

but drunk is very different than roofied and passed out


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

justaguy123 said:


> Caught STD / AIDS, yes... get her pregnant... not so much.
> 
> As a guy, even with morning wood, there is no way there is semen coming out (more like pee) unless you're actively aroused and going at it...


Right, just like a woman can't conceive if it was rape., give me a break!

Where do ideas like this even originate, let alone spread? Once the sex starts, the reproductive system is going to do what it does, whether the guy is conscious or not.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Not to be intentionally or sexually biased, but the legal standard of proving rape against a male having relations with a female, is so much easier than it being the other way around. Just study your case law!

But my intuition tells me it was probably rape!*


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

According to UK law 'rape' is defined as the non-consensual penetration of a person's vagina or anus by a penis. So in the UK it wouldn't be rape. 

Having said that I agree with other posters. BS.


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## justaguy123 (Aug 20, 2014)

SadandAngry said:


> Right, just like a woman can't conceive if it was rape., give me a break!
> 
> Where do ideas like this even originate, let alone spread? Once the sex starts, the reproductive system is going to do what it does, whether the guy is conscious or not.


Huh?

Are you a guy? Do you have a penis?

Because as a man with a strong virility and big penis, I can tell you I ain't going to get no woman pregnant if I'm unconscious / drunk, or asleep. Semen doesn't spill out by itself. The normal response for penis is to eject urine, not semen.

Do you even comprehend what I posted? Because if you ain't got a penis you have no idea how a penis works.

I have been told on several occasions, however, that my handsome looks is very powerful, and just by looking at some women I have gotten them wet and potentially pregnant. Thank God for DNA tests!!!


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening justaguy123
Men can be forced to ejaculate involuntarily, just as women can be forced to orgasm involuntarily. Both can happen during rape, and neither indicates consent.

Its a source of a lot of confusion. Male victims of homosexual rape will sometimes ejaculate, and that can lead to completely inappropriate feelings of guilt. 

So yes, a woman knock a guy out, or time him up, and them force him to impregnate her. (and he would be responsible for child support in most states in the US).

That said, while it can happen it is rare. I don't think its worth trying to figure out if the story is true - it really doesn't change the validity of the discussion as long as it is *possible*.




justaguy123 said:


> Caught STD / AIDS, yes... get her pregnant... not so much.
> 
> As a guy, even with morning wood, there is no way there is semen coming out (more like pee) unless you're actively aroused and going at it...


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

If not for alcohol, lots of people would never experience sexual intercourse. Visit a WalMart and see what's walking around. Could you have sex with some of those folks if you were sober?


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## justaguy123 (Aug 20, 2014)

unbelievable said:


> If not for alcohol, lots of people would never experience sexual intercourse. Visit a WalMart and see what's walking around. Could you have sex with some of those folks if you were sober?


Hence why beer is such a popular beverage at Walmart.


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## justaguy123 (Aug 20, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening justaguy123
> Men can be forced to ejaculate involuntarily, just as women can be forced to orgasm involuntarily. Both can happen during rape, and neither indicates consent.
> 
> Its a source of a lot of confusion. Male victims of homosexual rape will sometimes ejaculate, and that can lead to completely inappropriate feelings of guilt.
> ...


Men can ejaculate if they are turned on, willingly or not, agreed.

If you're unconscious or asleep, that's not going to happen. There's always exceptions to the rule (maybe some men can get pregnant???), but if you're not consciously or partially conscious of the sex, then the penis will not be spilling semen. The part of the brain that triggers semen ejaculation simply can't work if the brain is knocked out or asleep. Even my wet dreams have not resulted in semen ejections, as much as I thought they would.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

Person knows their partner is not ready for sex yet due to previous, sober, conversations.

Person gets partner drunk and has sex while partner's inhibitions are lowered.

Yep, sexual assault.

Drunkenness =/= consent. Gender and ability are irrelevant.


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## Hortensia (Feb 1, 2013)

I don't know, but in my opinion, if the penis got up when with a woman, then it can't be rape. The body said YES. Now, if she held a gun to his head and forced him to get himself hard and do her, that could be called a rape. I voted no, not really, but she did trick him, and that was wrong. First time should be an unforgettable positive experience.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

This story only illustrates to me , another reason why young people shouldn't go out getting plastered.. that's about all I see.. and I probably wouldn't call it rape, unless they also poured the booze down his throat. 

Where is the personal responsibility here?


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> This story only illustrates to me , another reason why young people shouldn't go out getting plastered.. that's about all I see.. and I probably wouldn't call it rape, unless they also poured the booze down his throat.
> 
> Where is the personal responsibility here?


Do you feel the same way if the genders are reversed?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

larry.gray said:


> Do you feel the same way if the genders are reversed?


I knew this was coming.. I don't have a lot of sympathy for people who get drunk then play victim.. I just don't.. I see them as irresponsible.. This is a GUY... is he a man or is he not.. 

I shared this little story with my husband, the gist of it...his response was to laugh about this guy claiming this was rape.... then I asked our 2 teen sons what they thought before getting on the bus.. 3rd son laughed too.. 2nd son just thinks the guy was an idiot.. because he got DRUNK and didn't know what the hell he was doing.. 3rd son said what guy wouldn't want that..then I said.. "well what if she got pregnant?? THat wouldn't be so good!"

Looking at this, take away the booze, I probably rape my H a couple times a month.. coming on to him when he's sleeping, he just happens to wake up...& there's no booze involved... I stimulate him & get on top. That's the way willies work... at age 19.. I'm sure they work pretty nicely.

How do I feel about this being reversed....I don't think women should get drunk around men they don't trust.. I will say that.. it's not wise..This was a situation of BF and GF though.. so it's a little different... he probably thought he could trust her.. did she get drunk too.. this seems to be left out of the story.. and really.. HOW WOULD HE EVEN KNOW ..correct.. well right there.. they both asked for lousy things to happen...

I guess I see more of a Victim status when one *wasn't* indulging in reckless behaviors that alter your mind and body. It demeans the whole word to throw it around so easily.. 



> *OnlyQueen said*: Then till this day, I don't recall this to well:
> Several moments must have passed by then but I was still drunk with a headache and not feeling too well when I woke up. *My then gf was on top of me and I found myself having sex. It felt very weird to be honest but then since my gf kept saying that I told her I was ready, we talked and it just happened. I found myself asking I did? and she said yes, I did so I assumed that since she said that and I still had an erection, I must have liked it.*
> 
> But yeah, I would see it more as RAPE if it was reversed... If it happened to my daughter, I wouldn't give her a full pass on this though...for willingly getting drunk... And that's the truth.


Well he was DRUNK.. maybe he DID say those things.. maybe she WASN'T LYING ....he will never know , now will he?

Although what I LIKED about this story was that a man actually gave a damn about his 1st sexual experience..(very commendable -not something you hear much).... though getting drunk ruined all that.. he stayed with this chick for another 2 years, I really don't think if the situation was reversed a woman would stay with her RAPE partner.. No way!.... I just can't see this as a full blown VICTIM.. more like after a break up, someone RE-WRITING history -feeling he was cheated...and wanting to blame HER....

Look what he says here


> *OnlyQueen said*: This might sound strong but *certain times, I feel as if she took advantage of my state of mind.* I keep wondering if I would have been ready had I been sober and fully aware. Or is drunk sex very common in relationships and I'm making a big deal out of it?


 at CERTAIN TIMES he feels she took advantage.. it would come and go.. Would I say she took advantage.. YES.. I WOULD.. .RAPE.. sorry, too strong of a word..

It was not mentioned if she was was drunk too.. the blind leading the blind..


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## Vivid (Aug 28, 2014)

If he feels he was raped, I think it was rape.


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## SamuraiJack (May 30, 2014)

justaguy123 said:


> Men can ejaculate if they are turned on, willingly or not, agreed.
> 
> If you're unconscious or asleep, that's not going to happen.


Never had a wet dream eh?


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

SimplyAmorous said:


> This story only illustrates to me , another reason why young people shouldn't go out getting plastered.. that's about all I see.. and I probably wouldn't call it rape, unless they also poured the booze down his throat.
> 
> Where is the personal responsibility here?


How is that statement any different than saying a woman deserved it because she was drunk? Or wearing revealing clothing? Or walking alone at night?


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Hortensia said:


> I don't know, but in my opinion, if the penis got up when with a woman, then it can't be rape. The body said YES. Now, if she held a gun to his head and forced him to get himself hard and do her, that could be called a rape. I voted no, not really, but she did trick him, and that was wrong. First time should be an unforgettable positive experience.


FWIW, it is not uncommon for a woman to be physically aroused and even orgasm during forced sex. It is purely a physical reaction, which doesn't mean it was pleasurable.

This is an extremely common and very negative issue that some female assault victims are forced to wrestle with afterwards, as it's highly confusing to them - why did my body react in a typically positive manner? Did I actually want/enjoy it? Etc.

The answer is "no". And for anybody who feels that it somehow insinuates consent, or even that it WAS enjoyable, I urge you to do your research on this very topic. This is particularly concerning to me that there are women who believe this. Women who have not had to go through something like this, either.

There have been a couple of people here who have insinuated that erection (or physical arousal) = consent. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Physical and mental are two completely separate things. The body will still "work" as it's supposed to in many cases, despite what the brain is telling you. The human body can, and does react in the normal way to physical stimulation. That's what it does.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

I split up with a girl and we slept in separate beds that evening in the same flat. I was awoken by her taking advantage of morning glory, I made it clear I would rather she did not - I was aroused and erect, but we had just broken up. She made heard, but held on and carried on. She was strong enough that stopping her would have required a reasonable amount of physical force (other girls I had been out with could simply have been lifted off). She therefore continued.

It is clearly rape. Yet, I was not in the least traumatised by it. She wanted to do it and having just been dumped perhaps wanted to show that she would still have me one last time.

No big deal to me, I let her. I was not upset by the incident and so it was not serious.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Looking at this, take away the booze, I probably rape my H a couple times a month.. coming on to him when he's sleeping, he just happens to wake up...& there's no booze involved... I stimulate him & get on top. That's the way willies work... at age 19.. I'm sure they work pretty nicely.


It's not rape if you've got consent. My wife and I had a conversation regarding this before the opportunity arose. We've both given each other consent to have fun with the other while sleeping or drunk.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> This story only illustrates to me , another reason why young people shouldn't go out getting plastered.. that's about all I see.. and I probably wouldn't call it rape, unless they also poured the booze down his throat.
> 
> * Where is the personal responsibility here*?


I agree with this^^^.

He wasn't underage , and if he's old enough to consume alcohol , then he's old enough to understand the possible outcomes of getting drunk in those type of situations.

People sometimes forget that aspect of personal responsibility when they put forward those types of arguments , and that goes for both genders. 
The law is understandably biased for women in situations of alcohol usage because of the strength differential and other physiological differences between our sexual organs.

It is impossible for a man who is not sexually aroused , to penetrate a woman with his flaccid penis. However , it is quite possible for a man to penetrate a woman who isn't sexually aroused .

In fact , this is known to happen quite a lot even during consensual sexual relations.

However, in the OP's story, if the male [ or the female] was underage , then it would be statutory rape.


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## murphy5 (May 1, 2014)

I, personally, would feel lucky if I was the kid. My "verbal consent" would have sounded like this: "glub, burp , mmmmmph"

But yes, technically he might not have wanted it.


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## justaguy123 (Aug 20, 2014)

I think we men don't have to worry about this problem too much, do we? 

Funny thread to distract us from real issues that most of us actually confront.


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## OnlyQueen (Oct 19, 2013)

justaguy123 said:


> I think we men don't have to worry about this problem too much, do we?
> 
> Funny thread to distract us from real issues that most of us actually confront.


Agree, it was kind of hard for me to be serious when reading his story. 

Nope, you guys wouldn't have to worry too much about it. The only exception is maybe if the girl gets pregnant afterwards.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
OK, Tirade mode....ON::soapbox:

I think this thread is useful because it is touching on some very important issues involving the (much more common) rape of women:

Physical arousal is not the same as consent. 

Someone can enjoy sex, and want sex with lots of people but still have the right to not want sex at a particular time or with a particular person. 

Just because one person might find a situation arousing doesn't mean that someone else wants it. There are lots of types of play-rape that I would enjoy, but that doesn't mean that everyone does, or even that I would if I didn't really have a choice. 

The reason this is important is that the arguments made to minimize what happened here because the victim was male are very similar to the arguments that are made to try to minimize the issue when women are raped. 

Some drunken rape cases are tricky, but this one isn't - there was no consent. 

OK Tirade off.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

alexm said:


> How is that statement any different than saying a woman deserved it because she was drunk? Or wearing revealing clothing? Or walking alone at night?


:iagree:

If my son was thinking along those lines I'd be really nervous. It's not a long stretch from feeling like "she deserves it" to "I'm going to help myself."


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

richardsharpe said:


> The reason this is important is that the arguments made to minimize what happened here because the victim was male are very similar to the arguments that are made to try to minimize the issue when women are raped.
> 
> Some drunken rape cases are tricky, but this one isn't - there was no consent.


I respectfully disagree. What I see here are far too many people who are making the assumption that because he's male, it's not as serious of an offense. Or that because he was able to maintain an erection, he must have been aroused, which means it's okay. Or some men stating that they'd be okay with this, or even want it. 

Or worse, and most flabbergasting to me, that because he had too much to drink, he was somehow partially responsible for the outcome. And one of the people who stated that was a woman.

Most troubling to me is that if this post had the genders reversed, there'd be about 100 female posters in here telling us (rightfully so) how disgusting this scenario was. Instead, I appear to be the only male, so far, who doesn't see a lick of difference in between the two situations, male or female.

Whether the post is a true story or not is irrelevant. What is relevant is that this DOES happen, and probably far more often than any of us realize, but because of gender roles in society, fewer men are comfortable, or even as traumatized, as women would be. But for the men who this has happened to who HAVE been traumatized by it, I can sympathize with them.

The ones who do have the balls to come out with their experiences are often ridiculed or told that it's no big deal. You're a man! You had sex! Awesome!

There have been myriad threads here about forced sex within a marriage, which is apparently pseudo-legal (  ), but the general consensus I have read here is that the offending spouse (usually the male) is an abhorrent piece of garbage for doing so. There have been threads about taking advantage of one's spouse while they are passed out or drunk. Again, same consensus: not okay. There have been discussions on date rape (one in which I regretfully started and it blew up), in which the general consensus is the same.

Here we have essentially the same story we've all read/heard a thousand times, here or in real life. The same story that usually sickens or angers even the toughest of us.

But this time the genders are reversed.

Dude was a virgin. Was waiting for the right person/time, whatever. That was taken from him, without his consent. By someone he trusted, at that. And it does not matter what the circumstances were. It was not his choice, under his conditions, when he was ready.

But oh, he was drunk and he got a boner, so it's all good, nothing to worry about. HE put himself in that position, what did he expect?

Are you kidding me? And these things coming from WOMEN?


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening Alexm
just checking, were you disagreeing with me? I think we are in agreement - maybe you were disagreeing with the other posters?

If you are disagreeing with me, thats fine, but let me know what part of what I said that you don't agree with so I can discuss. 



alexm said:


> I respectfully disagree.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

larry.gray said:


> :iagree:
> 
> If my son was thinking along those lines I'd be really nervous. It's not a long stretch from feeling like "she deserves it" to "I'm going to help myself."


And I agree 100% with you ...we sure don't raise our sons to EVER ACT or even entertain this sort of behavior.. it's deplorable... 

Alexm...you seem to judge my position.. and that's fine.. I guess for me.. I am looking more to how we conduct ourselves in order to not even allow the chance of bad things happening.. 

Most men do not need to worry about this scenario... I'm going by the guy's story.. why did he stay with her another 2 yrs???....he couldn't have been all that UPSET about it...

If she was all so experienced and it was supposed to mean something special to him... why was he even with her.. seems she wanted to push him into sex.. not much trust between the 2 of them.. enter alcohol.. it's not a good situation... Again I ask.. was she drunk too?? So then who do we blame?? 

How many young people PARTY.. get drunk, get high adding sex to the mix... this appears a right of passage on the college scene (this was a FRAT party remember)... it's become very "acceptable" by manys standards today... 

The truth is....none of this is acceptable by MY STANDARDS of conduct... or how I'd want our sons & daughters to act & behave.. NONE of it.. starting with the alcohol.... there is nothing I am justifying here.. and I am all for "consent".... yet many of you have no problem with the alcohol blurring these lines....where I DO !

The Alcohol brought the murky in this scenario for me...(and yes I DO feel *we should be accountable* to not get so plastered we don't know where the hell we are, what we are doing or saying)...He could have slurred his consent, she could have misunderstood even. Do we really know..

Now if *she* slipped something IN HIS DRINK.. unbeknownst to him...to intentionally knock him out quick... with some sort of plan to get him UP...for her own sexual thrill... or to get pregnant, whatever.. This I would see clearly as a VICTIM... one manipulated/ lied to and seduced.. enter male rape....I just didn't read the story like this.. or to this extreme....


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## Vivid (Aug 28, 2014)

It seems clear cut to me, if the story is true. There was no consent, there was clearly stated non-consent from him. Therefore it's rape. Whether or not he stayed with her, or was traumatised or not makes no difference.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I'm not convinced either way. The story does bring up a few thoughts. If the genders were reversed then for the most part I'd think it was rape. Same with this story, although the fact that he stayed with her (and presumably banged her) for 2 more years gives me pause....as it would if the genders were reversed. But the abused often stay with their abusers, so there you go.

I do wonder about the pregnancy question. I mean, if she had gotten pregnant from the "encounter", would he be responsible for child support (assuming it was rape)?


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening Alexm
> just checking, were you disagreeing with me? I think we are in agreement - maybe you were disagreeing with the other posters?
> 
> If you are disagreeing with me, thats fine, but let me know what part of what I said that you don't agree with so I can discuss.


No, not at all. Poor place of my words, directly underneath your quote. We're on the same page, I think!


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

SimplyAmorous said:


> And I agree 100% with you ...we sure don't raise our sons to EVER ACT or even entertain this sort of behavior.. it's deplorable...
> 
> Alexm...you seem to judge my position.. and that's fine.. I guess for me.. I am looking more to how we conduct ourselves in order to not even allow the chance of bad things happening..
> 
> ...


I'm not judging you, I'm disagreeing 

I got what you were saying, I just thought the wording was poor, making it sound like he was asking for it, simply by drinking.

I guess my point is that I'm surprised to hear this from a woman, more than anything. As I said previously, being drunk is no more consent than how someone dresses, or where they are and at what time of night.

I understand what you were trying to say - that alcohol never helps any situation, but at the same time, your wording made it sound like he's at fault (or partially at fault) because he was drunk.

If you, as a woman, like to wear tight fitting or revealing clothing, that is certainly not an invitation to any guy to have his way with you. It theoretically doesn't even mean that you are available or looking, never mind "asking for it". Just as someone (male or female) having one too many drinks does not imply that their inhibitions are necessarily lowered and ready for anything.

Whether she was drunk or not doesn't really matter. As we've heard here many a time, alcohol is not an excuse for bad behavior. If one is not drunk enough to "perform", then they also have their mental faculties intact, more or less.

As for why he stayed with her, why do battered women stay with abusive husbands? Why do any of us stay with spouses we know aren't good for us. Why did I stay with my ex wife who treated me like garbage for many years? The reasons for all are varying, and most often ridiculous in hindsight, but people do. That also doesn't insinuate that he wasn't traumatized by that incident, and we're also making the assumption that they had sex again, after that. I don't believe we know if they did or not.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I do wonder about the pregnancy question. I mean, if she had gotten pregnant from the "encounter", would he be responsible for child support (assuming it was rape)?


Mary Kay Laterno was found guilty of child rape when she became pregnant with the child of the 12 y/o boy she molested. The judge dealing with the child support payments had no choice under the law and ordered the parents of the boy to pay child support until he was 18 and him to pay them after that.

I think that's your answer right there...


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good afternoon WorkingOnME
there was a recent case in the us were an underage boy (and therefore a victim of child abuse) was still responsible for child support. There was even a case where a women impregnated herself with sperm from a used condom and the man was still responsible. Child support in the US is generally based on the needs of the child, regardless of how the woman got pregnant. 

I think these "exotic" cases are so rare that the laws haven't been adjusted.




WorkingOnMe said:


> I'm not convinced either way. The story does bring up a few thoughts. If the genders were reversed then for the most part I'd think it was rape. Same with this story, although the fact that he stayed with her (and presumably banged her) for 2 more years gives me pause....as it would if the genders were reversed. But the abused often stay with their abusers, so there you go.
> 
> I do wonder about the pregnancy question. I mean, if she had gotten pregnant from the "encounter", would he be responsible for child support (assuming it was rape)?


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good afternoon all
I think the only way that alcohol causes confusion is that if BOTH are very drunk it is difficult to know who consented to what. Of course when you combine this with intoxication not being a defense, then it can become really unclear who is responsible for what. 

If two very drunken people have sex, can they both be guilty of rape?:scratchhead:

Good reason not to get extremely drunk.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> Good afternoon all
> I think the only way that alcohol causes confusion is that if BOTH are very drunk it is difficult to know who consented to what. Of course when you combine this with intoxication not being a defense, then it can become really unclear who is responsible for what.
> 
> *If two very drunken people have sex, can they both be guilty of rape?* :scratchhead:
> ...


*Only if in their state of drunkeness that they're successful enough in finding each others sexual parts!*


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

richardsharpe said:


> Good afternoon all
> I think the only way that alcohol causes confusion is that if BOTH are very drunk it is difficult to know who consented to what. Of course when you combine this with intoxication not being a defense, then it can become really unclear who is responsible for what.
> 
> If two very drunken people have sex, can they both be guilty of rape?:scratchhead:
> ...


 See how ridiculous it all gets.. would any of us want to be the judge in any of these "accused rape" cases (at Frat parties yet)?.... I don't even think one should get a little drunk..but that's beside the point...


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening simplyamorous

I don't drink either. I never want my ability to consent to anything to be in question.


There are clear cases: If someone is deceived about the amount of alcohol in a drink, or (much worse) drugged, that is very serious. 

If someone voluntarily gets drunk it gets complicated. If they are "passed out" and someone has sex with them, I would call that rape, unless previous consent for that situation were given. 

In cases of lesser intoxication, especially when both parties are intoxicated, it gets really difficult to figure out. Especially true since the drunken people are poor witnesses...... That doesn't mean it isn't rape, just that its very difficult to tell.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

Assuming it's true, I would classify it as rape.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

Just to add, I was in a similar situation, too drunk to know what the hell I was doing, he was too drunk to care much about the ethics of what he was doing, I put myself in the situation where I knew it might occur. By the time I figured out I didn't really want to proceed, it felt like it was too late to back out. I look back on that and knew I didn't want it and I certainly didn't enjoy it. Would I charge him with rape? No, because I was a damn fool and I've never put myself in that situation again.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good afternoon all
I think that if a "victim" doesn't think it is rape, then it isn't. (though there are some tricky possible examples).


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

breeze said:


> Just to add, I was in a similar situation, too drunk to know what the hell I was doing, he was too drunk to care much about the ethics of what he was doing, I put myself in the situation where I knew it might occur. By the time I figured out I didn't really want to proceed, it felt like it was too late to back out. I look back on that and knew I didn't want it and I certainly didn't enjoy it. Would I charge him with rape? No, because I was a damn fool and I've never put myself in that situation again.


A few years back we had a rape case where the guy was convicted in a situation similar to this. He got 8-1/3 years as it was a 1st degree rape conviction.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

larry.gray said:


> A few years back we had a rape case where the guy was convicted in a situation similar to this. He got 8-1/3 years as it was a 1st degree rape conviction.


You didn't say how you felt about that.. justified?.. it kinda falls in line with the question on this thread... do those who feel this IS RAPE also feel this GF should go to jail -be put on a sexual offender list...do 8 yrs .....after all 33 people who voted feel it's *RAPE*.....only 8 voted No.... (i didn't vote)

What should a judge give this GIRLFRIEND ?

How about this article ... (obviously far more men get accused of rape so you will find a slew of articles on this)... this one mentions the "getting drunk " scenario..

The Truth About False Rape Accusations That All Men Should Know



> 3. *The Definition of Rape Is Subjective*
> 
> What is rape, anyways? Once upon a time it was when a man had sex with a woman even while she was saying ‘No.’
> 
> ...


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> You didn't say how you felt about that.. justified?.. it kinda falls in line with the question on this thread... do those who feel this IS RAPE also feel this GF should go to jail -be put on a sexual offender list...do 8 yrs .....after all 33 people who voted feel it's *RAPE*.....only 8 voted No.... (i didn't vote)


I was appalled by the verdict. But perhaps not why you think..... My issue was with meeting 'beyond a reasonable doubt.' 

I don't see how you get there when it's he said / she said, and the only evidence was that she was a virgin who lost it that night. He didn't deny the sex, just argued over consent. 

As a juror, you'd have to be ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that he was lying and she was telling the truth. I don't see how you get there unless 
a) - She's out, completely incapable of saying no. Not this case on this one

b) - He threatened the use of a weapon. Again not the case.

c) She struggles at least some. If she struggles some, there is going to be evidence of fighting and he's nailed.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

larry.gray said:


> I was appalled by the verdict. But perhaps not why you think..... My issue was with meeting 'beyond a reasonable doubt.'
> 
> I don't see how you get there when it's he said / she said, and the only evidence was that she was a virgin who lost it that night. He didn't deny the sex, just argued over consent.
> 
> ...


 I would agree with YOUR verdict, I would be appalled too.. 

The problem with Rape is.. how do you really prove this.. EVER.. it's always a "He said/ she said".. ..and some completely MISREAD intentions.. if you can't go by character...or the history of someone (Do they have a history of lying , manipulating, other women coming forth with similar stories)...it's just a very difficult thing .. 

Hanging out at places where Booze & horny men reside is a recipe for situations like this though..


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## Vivid (Aug 28, 2014)

It really sounds as though there are people in this thread that think if someone is drunk they deserve to be sexually assaulted.

I'm glad I don't know anyone who thinks that way in real life.


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

Vivid said:


> It really sounds as though there are people in this thread that think if someone is drunk they deserve to be sexually assaulted.
> 
> I'm glad I don't know anyone who thinks that way in real life.



I read the following on another forum and it stayed with me because it applies to a robbery victim the questions posed usually to a rape victim.

*“Mr. Smith, you were held up at gunpoint on the corner of First and Main?” *
“Yes.” 
*“Did you struggle with the robber?*” 
“No.” 
*“Why not?” *
“He was armed.”
*“Then you made a conscious decision to comply with his demands rather than resist?” *
“Yes.” 
*“Did you scream? Cry out?” *
“No, I was afraid.” 
*“I see. Have you ever been held up before?” *
“No.” 
*“Have you ever GIVEN money away?” *
“Yes, of course.” 
*“And you did so willingly?”* 
“What are you getting at?” 
*“Well, let’s put it like this, Mr. Smith. You’ve given money away in the past. In fact, you have quite a reputation for philanthropy. How can we be sure that you weren’t CONTRIVING to have your money taken from you by force?” *
“Listen, if I wanted –” 
*“Never mind. What time did this holdup take place, Mr. Smith?” *
“About 11:00 P.M.” 
*“You were out on the street at 11:00 P.M.? Doing what?” *
“Just walking.” 
*“Just walking? You know that it’s dangerous being out on the street that late at night. Weren’t you aware that you could have been held up?*” 
“I hadn’t thought about it.” 
*“What were you wearing at the time, Mr. Smith?” *
“Let’s see…a suit. Yes, a suit.” 
*“An EXPENSIVE suit?” *
“Well yes. I’m a successful lawyer, you know.” 
*“In other words, Mr. Smith, you were walking around the streets late at night in a suit that practically advertised the fact that you might be good target for some easy money, isn’t that so? I mean, if we didn’t know better, Mr. Smith, we might even think that you were asking for this to happen, mightn’t we?”*

From “The Legal Bias Against Rape Victims (The Rape of Mr. Smith).” Connie K. Borkenhagen, American Bar Association Journal. April, 1975


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

Vivid said:


> It really sounds as though there are people in this thread that think if someone is drunk they deserve to be sexually assaulted.
> 
> I'm glad I don't know anyone who thinks that way in real life.


I didn't read a lot of the thread except for the original post and the last page, but I hope no one would take what I said that way. I chose for myself, but I'm not saying I would want anyone else to make the same choice just because I did, but that they should decide for themselves.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening Coffee Amore
What makes rape so much more difficult to prosecute is that the same actions can be rape or consensual sex. The difference is in what was said - and often there are not witnesses. 

It is much less likely that someone will give their wallet to a stranger.

The basic problem with rape cases is that if there is no physical injury, if 2 people have sex in private, you only have their words to determine whether or not it was consensual. I don't see any way out of this except the sort of universal surveillance that most people won't tolerate.




Coffee Amore said:


> I read the following on another forum and it stayed with me because it applies to a robbery victim the questions posed usually to a rape victim.
> 
> *“Mr. Smith, you were held up at gunpoint on the corner of First and Main?” *
> “Yes.”
> ...


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Did somebody gloss over this one?



larry.gray said:


> b) - He threatened the use of a weapon. Again not the case.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Vivid said:


> It really sounds as though there are people in this thread that think if someone is drunk they deserve to be sexually assaulted.
> 
> I'm glad I don't know anyone who thinks that way in real life.


I certainly don't think so.

I also think jailing somebody for nearly a decade isn't something to be taken lightly. You dang well better be SURE before you do.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

breeze said:


> Just to add, I was in a similar situation, too drunk to know what the hell I was doing, he was too drunk to care much about the ethics of what he was doing, I put myself in the situation where I knew it might occur. By the time I figured out I didn't really want to proceed, it felt like it was too late to back out. I look back on that and knew I didn't want it and I certainly didn't enjoy it. Would I charge him with rape? No, because I was a damn fool and I've never put myself in that situation again.


Obviously you made the decision that was best for you (not charging him, I mean), and if nobody else was there, and you were both drunk, that's a very tough call anyway.

Bottom line, though, if you said "no" at any point, then it should have stopped. Even if you said "yes" or otherwise physically allowed it to happen at the start.

My pov is that if the aggressor (man OR woman) is not drunk enough to do the deed, then they are not drunk enough to understand the word "no" (or "stop"), regardless of what perceived (or real) consent was given at the start. You can imply, or even say "yes", but this, imo, only gives consent until you say "no". Whether that's because one came to their senses, or they are simply not enjoying what's happening. All too often, people hear the initial "yes" and block out anything that happens afterwards.

I hope that, in your case, it wasn't a truly traumatic event that has affected your life negatively, in which you did not do anything about it simply because you blamed yourself for being drunk. If you said "no" at any point, then you would have had the right to pursue this afterwards had you wanted to.

If it's a case of "boy, I wish I hadn't done THAT", then we've all been there...

Ultimately, the decision is up to the non-aggressor, and there's not always a right or wrong answer. But when it's a clear cut case of the person saying "no" or "stop", then there should be no shame in taking action.

Just because one is physically unable to stop it (whether they are drunk, high, weak, whatever) does not mean any of the blame should fall on them.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Coffee Amore said:


> I read the following on another forum and it stayed with me because it applies to a robbery victim the questions posed usually to a rape victim.
> 
> *“Mr. Smith, you were held up at gunpoint on the corner of First and Main?” *
> “Yes.”
> ...


That is brilliant, and is a perfect example of how women are unfortunately treated when it comes to their sexuality and their bodies, and how far too many people view consent, even in this day and age.

I didn't want to do this, but I had a thread a while back about how my ex wife felt she was sexually assaulted, but because it was such a gray area and largely unprovable, she never did anything about it.

In a nutshell, for those of you who haven't seen that thread, my ex wife used to work evenings when she was in her mid to late teens. A boyfriend of a friend of hers would give her rides home when their shift ended (about 11pm) as he was going that direction. She felt comfortable with him, and it wasn't a long drive, and his girlfriend worked there, too (but drove her own car and lived in the opposite direction).

So one night, after many drives home, he pulls the car into a large empty parking lot, turns off the engine, and pulls out a condom, which he tossed at her.

Here's where this story blew up on TAM and there were many different views and opinions.

My ex wife (who I was not with at this time, I should point out) expressed that she did not want to go through with this. There was a little back-and-forth ("you have a girlfriend..." "but I drive you home every night..." blah blah blah) In other words she felt co-erced, or that she owed him something - which is not uncommon.

She also felt afraid. She's in somebody else's car, in a dark parking lot, late at night with nobody around and the guy tosses a condom to her, and basically intimates that she owes him for the rides home. She tells him that she's not interested, more than once, but she eventually relents because he's not giving up and she's starting to feel very uncomfortable, and she just wants to get home.

Now some people here agreed that this was date rape, some thought it was consensual because she didn't firmly say "no", and some suggested it was her fault for being in that position in the first place.

Some even suggested that it's borderline consent just by being in a car with a guy late at night, especially given their ages (her mid teens, he later teens). "What did she expect?"

This quote above is eerily reminiscent of my ex wife's experience, as well as the few examples put forth in this thread.

You were drunk. You were out late at night. You were wearing clothing that advertised your sexuality (or money). You accepted rides home from a guy. You didn't fight back/scream/run away. You didn't say "no" convincingly enough. You didn't say "no" at all.

So here's the problem with all of this - because the person didn't say "no", perhaps at all, that implies consent. But they didn't say "yes", either.

My opinion on my ex-wife's experience was that the guy put her in a position where she couldn't say no, at least not without being fearful. And to me, that's where the fine line disappears. It's very easy to say what one would do in any particular situation, but unless it's happening to you, it's nothing but bravado talking. "Oh, I would have done THIS" or "I'd never put myself in a position like that." But often, especially as women, you can't avoid these situations, or don't recognize that they're occurring until it's too late. Of course no woman WANTS to be in a position like that. It's certainly not planned. And hindsight is always 20/20. 

My ex wife didn't accept a ride home from a stranger. This was a guy she worked with for a couple of years, and who's girlfriend also worked there, and they all hung out occasionally. The bulk of the time she saw this guy, his girlfriend was with him.

In the story above, about the guy walking by himself, he has the blame put on him. Why didn't he say no? Why was he even walking around by himself? And wearing a nice suit? And don't you have a history of giving away your money, anyway?

So if a victim doesn't yell and scream, doesn't run away, fight back, whatever, then s/he's to blame somehow. They shouldn't have been there/doing that/wearing those clothes/drinking in the first place.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Vivid said:


> It really sounds as though there are people in this thread that think if someone is drunk they deserve to be sexually assaulted.
> 
> I'm glad I don't know anyone who thinks that way in real life.


That's not what many are saying here. They are talking about the grey line of someone who consents the night before drunk and wakes up sober not remembering they gave consent. It is a huge grey area and one hard to investigate for sure. In my state universities have their own police force as a branch of the state police so they deal with these cases a lot I would think. I have never dealt with any.


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