# Are we right to interfere if we think its right?



## 7737 (Feb 10, 2011)

I started a thread over in the sex in marriage 'department' about whether women prefer a circumcised or an uncircumcised penis.
It was decended into a debate about circumcision being barbaric etc.

So I would like to see how people 'discuss' this;

I believe all parents do what they feel is right and best for their children. We send them to school 'x' because at the time we felt that it was the right choice. In time it might turn out to be the wrong decision.

Some of us believe that circumcision is healthier. So as we want the best for our children we have them circumcised shortly after birth. Due to their age they are unable to give consent.

A doctor tells us that our baby has a heart defect. If we do nothing they will survive and live a reasonable life but will maybe never be able to take part in active sports etc. 
Or we could authorise a small invasive operation that will enable them to lead a 100% normal life. 

I accept that uncircumcised men can lead a normal life.

At what point do we cross the line? We stick needles into young babies to help prevent measles, mumps, rubella etc. Some of us (not me!) let our daugthers pierce their ears long before they are legally old enough to consent....

Why is (male) circumcision so different?

Please discuss!!!


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

I am weird, I talked to my parents, H's parents, H of course, and a friend of mine all about it when I was preggo the first time. Everyone but my friend thought it was just a good decision to have the circumcision done. My friend had two boys, and neither of them were done. I honestly chose to have both of my boys get a circumcision mainly because my H and I had talked it to death and both of us really wanted it done for them. My H is as well, and I am not going to tell him its wrong to get our boys done as well. If they hate us later for it, I guess that is something we would have to deal with.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

The evidence is pretty overwhelming, and mounting, that it is NOT healthier to circumcise though. A foreskin is not comparable to a heart defect. A foreskin is not a defect.

We don't routinely do surgery to remove babies appendixes, even though that would probably prevent deaths later in life.

I get that some religions demand it, and that's fine. But to say it's for health reasons is an outdated stance IMO.


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## In_The_Wind (Feb 17, 2012)

7737 said:


> I started a thread over in the sex in marriage 'department' about whether women prefer a circumcised or an uncircumcised penis.
> It was decended into a debate about circumcision being barbaric etc.
> 
> So I would like to see how people 'discuss' this;
> ...


well pretty much in the usa its a cultural thing that dates back to the old testament messianc jewish traditions that our ancestors decided upon i guess


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## mina (Jun 14, 2012)

"It was decended into a debate about circumcision being barbaric etc." - actually this isn't true. 7737 posted controversial facts and data on a thread where he asked for no debate and then got mad that some of us wanted to refute his information. 

Just keeping it real. Again.


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## dormant (Apr 3, 2012)

In 1996 at the age of 43, I developed some kind of condition where my foreskin started cracking open and dying. I had it removed and the surgeon said after removing it, he realized it would have turned to cancer.

We didn't have our first son done at birth, but it started bothering him at the age of 3 and we had to do it then. Our second son, we had it done at birth.

So, when I was done in 1996, I wished my parents had fixed me up at birth. Would have saved some pain later.

Having said that, as far as sensation goes, intercourse was much better before.


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## CantePe (Oct 5, 2011)

First off a heart defect cannot - let me repeat that CANNOT be compared to a cosmetic surgery.

The American Pediatric Association, the CDC and the Canadian Pediatric Association has deemed circumcision as COSMETIC, intrusive cosmetic surgery that does not have any health benefits what so ever.


I small invasive (as if doing surgery on the heart were ever small) surgery for the heart is huge.

Circumcision was first used by doctors to stifle masturbation. Pre doctors it was a covenant that Jesus revoked after the new testament (old testament when the covenant was declared). Ironically, in the old testament God only required a nick of the foreskin not a full removal but that translation got lost somewhere down the line.

What the Bible Really Says About Routine Infant Circumcision

WARNING GRAPHIC:

Plastibell version of circumcision

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCLM6P8tc2E

Gomco clamp version:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fb39r6CvhqU

I don't know how ANYONE could put their child through that. Most doctors think that an infant does not feel pain. A fetus has been proven to first feel pain at between 8 weeks and 14 weeks. (people still debate this)

If you can't watch the two most used methods of circumcision then I don't think it's right to perform it on a helpless child who has no say in the matter.

Another note: When we get stitches or surgery we are told to keep it clean and dry...

Why then do we stick our baby boys in diapers full of urine and feces after circumcising them - it's a wound that needs to be clean and dry. There is a very high potential for risk of health concerns right there.

My boys are intact and will remain so unless THEY chose to be circumcised. It is not my body, it is not my right.


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

CantePe said:


> I don't know how ANYONE could put their child through that. Most doctors think that an infant does not feel pain. A fetus has been proven to first feel pain at between 8 weeks and 14 weeks. (people still debate this)
> 
> If you can't watch the two most used methods of circumcision then I don't think it's right to perform it on a helpless child who has no say in the matter.
> 
> ...


I have never had a doctor tell me the infant won't feel pain. I have heard a doctor tell me if it was going to be done, that doing it when the baby is too young to remember it is the best option.

Both of my boys had a cap on the tip, that kept the area safe from the urine in the diaper and all that jazz. 

I won't ever tell anyone they have to have their child done, but I also won't listen to someone tell me I am a horrible parent for making a different choice.


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## CantePe (Oct 5, 2011)

I didn't say "you are a horrible parent" I said I didn't understand how anyone could do that... Big difference in wording and inflection.


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

CantePe said:


> I didn't say "you are a horrible parent" I said I didn't understand how anyone could do that... Big difference in wording and inflection.


Not directing that specific part at you Cante Pe, meant to be said as an "in general" setting


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

We did it to our son because my husband is. It's all I know really. I've never even seen an intact man and it really wasn't that big of a deal. I think getting shots has been way more traumatic than this.


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## CantePe (Oct 5, 2011)

DawnD said:


> Not directing that specific part at you Cante Pe, meant to be said as an "in general" setting


I love your posts Dawn, I think you are an intelligent and amazing person. I'm the last to judge anyone at all. It's not how I function.

However, (I'm sorry if I am about to offend you and I'm guilty of this type of reaction myself and will be again I'm sure) your response seems to indicate that I may have offended you and your reaction was a knee jerk reaction to what I posted. I'm okay with that - it's a sensitive topic.

Most people, who are passionate about something or sensitive about something, WILL react the way you did. Like I said, I'm guilty of it too in the past and will be again.

My trigger button is Autism ignorance (not necessarily associated with arrogance of course, ignorance doesn't equate stupidity just a lack of key knowledge).

The psychology of your response is the same as any human being. See something that triggers a memory of being judged, feel judged, must defend. It's normal.

If I did make you feel judged, that was not my intent at all. You said that doctors gave you proper care info and you even used a "cap" type apparatus to keep your boys clean. I'm glad you had a more proactive doctor but most doctors aren't.

Most parents never think to ask or do their own research or discuss it "to death". They just do with what they are told is "normal" without question. Again, I'm okay if you reacted that way, it's what makes us human. I'd prefer you tell me that it offended you rather than bottle neck it. I prefer complete brutal honesty.

Again, my line of thinking is *I* don't understand the mechanisms of the choice but it doesn't mean I judge for that choice. While I am pro-intact in stance I have NO right to judge someone else. I've probably done crap that others have judged me for like extended breastfeeding (18 months), cloth diapering, not vaccinating (please no debates, I'm not entertaining debate on my choices - I have medical exemptions), co-sleeping...

I am not as "crunchy" as some of my fellow natural parenting friends and peers but I am slightly crispy LOL

Again, I apologize if I've offended you in any way or anyone. It is a rather sensitive topic.


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

CantePe said:


> However, (I'm sorry if I am about to offend you and I'm guilty of this type of reaction myself and will be again I'm sure) your response seems to indicate that I may have offended you and your reaction was a knee jerk reaction to what I posted. I'm okay with that - it's a sensitive topic.


No, no not at all Cante Pe. I am just off this week LMAO. I posted on another thread in family and parenting where I couldn't get something to come out right this week too LMAO. 

I highlighted yours to answer the diaper/keeping it clean thing, not really for any of the other information. My FIL is not circumsized and has taken HUGE issue with me and the H for doing it to our two. HE is the target of all my frustrations lol. This thread makes me think of him, puts me in a bad place hahahaha. 

Funny you mentioned autism, my oldest is autistic hahahaha. My SIL has no intention of having her son done, and I think its great. I like it when people can make their choice without feeling the need to push it on others. (Which is why your post is nice, you don't seem to want to change minds or offend, just stating your choice).


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## CantePe (Oct 5, 2011)

DawnD said:


> No, no not at all Cante Pe. I am just off this week LMAO. I posted on another thread in family and parenting where I couldn't get something to come out right this week too LMAO.
> 
> I highlighted yours to answer the diaper/keeping it clean thing, not really for any of the other information. My FIL is not circumsized and has taken HUGE issue with me and the H for doing it to our two. HE is the target of all my frustrations lol. This thread makes me think of him, puts me in a bad place hahahaha.
> 
> Funny you mentioned autism, my oldest is autistic hahahaha. My SIL has no intention of having her son done, and I think its great. I like it when people can make their choice without feeling the need to push it on others. (Which is why your post is nice, you don't seem to want to change minds or offend, just stating your choice).


I hate when people dump their choices on others and boy do I know what that feels like evil in law (SIL) always did that to me until I put my foot down and said you run your household I run mine - shut up. LOL

While I don't like it (I'll admit that it makes me cringe), the circumcision of boys, I feel that I'd rather be an open book to someone seeking information and knowledge than being a rotten judgmental nay sayer that tells the person "no no no, you don't do that".

You can have a civil conversation with someone who's still on the fence about a choice if you tell them what to do. Show them what both sides are and they can make that choice themselves.

Did I mention I am also very, VERY pro- informed choice?


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

CantePe said:


> I hate when people dump their choices on others and boy do I know what that feels like evil in law (SIL) always did that to me until I put my foot down and said you run your household I run mine - shut up. LOL
> 
> While I don't like it (I'll admit that it makes me cringe), the circumcision of boys, I feel that I'd rather be an open book to someone seeking information and knowledge than being a rotten judgmental nay sayer that tells the person "no no no, you don't do that".
> 
> ...


 You and me both hahahaha. We poured over information for weeks, I did for months. One of those things. It does crack me up when I have someone who is grown tell me my son isn't autistic because he isn't in a wheelchair. That one took me back for a minute, I will admit it LMAO. 

Perhaps a glass of wine will help me get back to my more useful posting skills :lol:


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## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> The evidence is pretty overwhelming, and mounting, that it is NOT healthier to circumcise though. A foreskin is not comparable to a heart defect. A foreskin is not a defect.
> 
> We don't routinely do surgery to remove babies appendixes, even though that would probably prevent deaths later in life.
> 
> I get that some religions demand it, and that's fine. But to say it's for health reasons is an outdated stance IMO.


Let me start by stating that we have two sons. The oldest is uncircumsised. The younger was circumcised at near one year old because of chronic infections.

My preference is to avoid all unnecessary surgeries, including cosmetic.

That said, it looks to me like the jury is out on the question of the health benefits of circumcision v. the risks and negatives of the surgery--depending on the circumstances. I don't think it's a clear call either way, which is why thoughtful parents may agonize over the decision.

Before I get flamed, let me note that I did do some reading first.

Sexual Health: Circumcision

WHO | World Health Organization

Why Circumcision Is a Public Health Concern - ABC News

Circumcision controversy: To cut or not? - Health - Children's health - Growing Up Healthy - NBCNews.com

Circumcision Policy Statement

I am not a doctor and I have not followed this issue closely. However, every one of the above articles states that there are health benefits to circumcision--particularly in the area of HIV and STD. Are they all incorrect?

IF recent studies show that there can be medical benefits, it seems to me that opponents lose credibility if they ignore these results. Isn't the real question whether the _*possibility *_of a medical benefit justifies circumcision? An analogy might be removal of a woman's breasts. That might have a health benefit, if it would make breast cancer less likely. But would the possibility of reducing the chance of breast cancer justify such a radical step?

7737 has stated he lives in Africa. There, the AIDS epidemic might tip the balance to circumcision for health reasons. For a middle-class baby born in Chicago, it would be a totally different calculation.

For me, there was insufficient probability of benefit for our sons. But based on what I've read, I find it difficult to say that's the evidence is overwhelmingly on one side or the other, nor to say that in some circumstances it might be the right call.


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## mina (Jun 14, 2012)

While I am not going to participate in your debate, I am thrilled to see you posted the article I host on my web site: What the Bible Really Says About Routine Infant Circumcision 

For more information, please see also everything you wanted to know about circumcision but were afraid to ask (because you knew you weren't going to like the answers!) 

Please note: You can also find the referenced biblical article on stopcirc.com and I'd prefer if that was the one you gave people as I have tried to consolidate all my circumcision stuff there over the past several years! Thanks!!


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

I don't understand how you can compare a heart defect to circumcision? 

Regardless, I have four kids (three boys and 1 girl) and all three of my boys are circumcised. If it had been solely up to me, I would not have circumcised my baby boys. But my husband is circumcised, and he really wanted it done. When my first son was born, H was pretty adamant, and I didn't press the issue. By the time the others came along, it was like " well, H is circumcised and so is big brother."

But I'll never forget cradling and nursing my baby boys and marveling at how DARLING and PERFECT they were as is. I didn't want to cause them unnecessary pain, and I felt really sad passing my little swaddled peanuts over to the nurses for their procedures. 

I don't really think it is necessary. Boys can learn to clean an uncircumcised penis. If they want the procedure later, fine. But I really do think it's an unnecessary procedure for a brand new baby boy. Just my .02.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

I was also going to add that our pediatrician will not perform circumcisions. Interestingly, my OB performed our boys' surgeries.


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## CantePe (Oct 5, 2011)

momtwo4 said:


> I was also going to add that our pediatrician will not perform circumcisions. Interestingly, my OB performed our boys' surgeries.


It's not covered in Canada anymore under our social health insurance. It's considered cosmetic and now costs anywhere from 250 to 550 dollars to have done by a doctor.

That doesn't include OR time, supplies and the assist from the nurse(s) present (their wages).


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I tend to shy away from gathering articles to back a cause. It's easy to find ones that say pretty much whatever you want them to say.

I think the fact that many doctors won't do them, and that it isn't covered by our health care here in Canada, speaks to whether there are any health benefits.

But I do agree that the volume of 'evidence' is daunting for any parent trying to make this decision.


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## 7737 (Feb 10, 2011)

This thread is not just about circumcision...its also about 'invasive' intervention to provide someone (a child) with a better quality of life and to protect them against future possible medical conditions.

We innoculate very young children to protect them against some pretty nasty diseases. Some of the innoculations can be nasty and make a child quite poorly for a couple of days...the smallpox jab leaves a scar.
As parents we do this with the best interest at heart - to protect our children.

As one poster has said, it would appear that the jury is undecided as to the benefits (or not) of circumcision.
There are some people who are absolutely dead set against it, some for and some who aren't sure what to think.

The Jews circumcise on the 8th day
Jehovah's Witnesses refuse blood transfusions
Some African tribes still practice female circumcision
Sikh's don't cut their hair
Muslims circumcise
.....

We don't have to agree with what other cultures, or people do, but what we must do is accept and respect that other people have different cultures and different opinions.

Some cultures are absolutely horrified that we will remove an organ from a dead person and transplant it in another person. We think we are doing the right thing....

Wouldn't the world be such a boring place if we all looked, did, praised and acted the same?!


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## EnglishWife (Aug 10, 2012)

My husband and I are in our mid-20's, both working. My husband got circumcised a year ago for 'cosmetic' reasons. He had too much foreskin and it reduced his pleasure.
I accept he is an adult and therefore had the right to decide.
having experienced both cut and uncut, be both believe cut is better.

I have come off contraception as we want to start a family. Lets see how long it takes!

Will I ensure that my child has MMR jabs, smallpox etc too right I will. I know that some of them are not very pleasant and I might have a grumpy, poorly baby for a couple of days, but I would much rather that than sit in ICU with a 4yr old with measles.

If its a boy, will I have him circumcised - I really don't know. 
One side of me says yes because I think it is better and there does appear to be evidence that it reduces the chances of penile/cervical cancer etc...but the other side says that he should be allowed to make the decision like his father did.

Perhaps he will have tight foreskin and have to be done for medical reasons?? Which would take the decision away from us.

Just at the moment though, I'm keeping an open mind.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

When I was pregnant with my son I originally did NOT want him circumsized... however... the doctor I had at the time discussed pros and cons to both options and after several months of discussion with the doctor as well as gate.. we decided to get him circumsized for health reasons. Our doc had pointed out that although the baby will indeed feel pain... it will be easier to keep clean and he will not be susceptible to the infections uncircumsized babies tend to get. 

Oh and ours to had a cap on the tip until it healed. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Seesaw (Jun 5, 2012)

I'm with Hitchens.

Christopher Hitchens: Circumcision - He destroys Rabbi Harold Kushner- YouTube


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## StatusQuo (Jun 4, 2012)

We had our son circ'd. I left the decision to my husband, I don't have a penis, so I can't relate to the procedure. The jury seemed so mixed as to whether or not it was beneficial, there were as many articles saying that it was good as there were saying that it was bad. I don't regret the decision that we made, nor do I adovocate it. It was what felt right for us.


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