# I'm calling it; Modern era Marriage sucks!!



## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

After nearly a year of limbo, lurking and whatever I have come to the conclusion that the modern day Marriage just plain ol' sucks. Take a look at this place and you need not look further. Seriously, click the back button twice and simply look at the numbers of the Marriage success Stories vs the CWI forum alone, 70 times more posts in CWI. What does that tell you?! Add in all the other forum category's and well, the numbers don't lie.

This place, Marriage builders, Marriage advocates and many other places all tell the same story; Gain interest, gets passionate, grows into a relationship, live together, have children (or not), both have careers (Or not), Buy a house (Or not)...........Add experience here!!

But alas, eventually the novelty wears off, the new exciting feelings fade, and the strain of sustaining whatever lifestyle a couple built becomes taxing. So one, or both parties accepts it as is, life's slow, hard working moments that provide very little return for ones efforts, and guess what you get to do it tomorrow too. Yes, I have to be a parent tomorrow, and a homeowner, and employed, and a husband (or Wife). And what do these things unequivocally demand?! In unison now, TIME & MONEY!!!. 

This does not matter and I suppose it shouldn't really, I mean, no one made me fall in love, become a father, buy a home, provide for my family or fulfill my Wife's demand's or needs. I was simply being a nice guy. Don't express my feelings, or thoughts and opinions or dare mention my needs or displeasures. Life is good and happy, for her. Mission accomplished. 

Maybe I could've been the so called Alpha, pee on her pee or leg and humped her into submission (metaphorically I might add) and made sure to mention my thoughts, wants and feelings and by god make them heard if at least not fulfilled. Take charge, lead the way, captain the ship.

Would it have been any different, has it ever? Did I simply not see the disparities or uncommon factors, did it even matter? 

As I, we, have all experienced by meeting here one thing is for sure. Nothing we could have done would have changed a thing one damn bit. Spend more time at home vs at work and she complains about not having any money or being able to provide for the familys growth or amenities that people feel they need in life to feel fulfilled or satisfied. Its a reason to cheat.

Work, work, work, suffer the lash of the financial demand imposed by your family's needs. Home, car, insurance, electric, heat, food.....and internet, newer car, new furniture, cell phones, children's sports, clothes and other activities, and whatever else the Mrs. says would be great for the family "I want to provide to my children the things I never had growing up:.. So time, precious time is sacrificed. Time from you wife, your children, hell maybe even you dog too. Your home becomes strange to you and whatever time you have at home ends up being another demand. Fix this, take care of this, mow the lawn, time to read storied, get children taken care of, fix the dryer........................ Each do represents something, here lets add some more...............Add what you see fit. I am now neglectful and checked out. I have not met her needs as well as being a failure for not reading her mind. I must simply not care or love her. It is a reason to cheat.

If your nice, your not assertive enough or aggressive enough to show you care or wish to pursue ones spouse, especially if your a guy, and the other party, especially women, find your eagerness to please revolting and disrespectful. She needs someone who'll take charge, make the decision for her, lead without even considering opinions, be the Alpha. "He never listened to me, he never noticed or cared about my feelings, I felt like I didn't matter, I had no say....." It is a reason to cheat.

The internet, work, home, church, school, wherever is a place to cheat. With cyberspace cheating is more than ever now isn't it. "It's ok, cause I never Fvcked him/her so what's the big deal?" is the normal response. But the Pics, statements, conversations and feelings involved with them invite danger and heartache. 

And remember, it's my/our fault. God if I wasn't at work I could turn this into a novel. 

But in short, modern day marriage sucks, unlike past ones (Which were also not perfect or free from infidelity) in nearly all cases if something was broke they fixed it, now, people simply toss it away and move on, as if marriage is now just a consumable item. It just plan ol' sucks.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

You need to keep in mind that people in HAPPY marriages aren't typically on the Internet looking for forums to spout off on how happy they are. They're out having fun with their spouse, enjoying other hobbies, etc. People usual come to forums like this because their marriages are on their last legs, and they're desperately trying to patch them up. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

IIJokerII said:


> But in short, modern day marriage sucks, unlike past ones (Which were also not perfect or free from infidelity) in nearly all cases if something was broke they fixed it, now, people simply toss it away and move on, as if marriage is now just a consumable item. It just plan ol' sucks.


Marriage can suck, especially if you chose a partner that is capable of cheating; and suck further if you catch them and they aren't remorseful.

Maybe marriage is not for you if you've have the bad luck or propensity to chose unfaithful spouses. Try not being married a while to get some perspective.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Also, from what I read, there have always been a ton of unhappy marriages. We just live in the day of instant gratification and disposable marriages.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

If you buy into the rat race, you gotta expect rats! Marriage is just one part of all that. Now that you see the problems, find a better solution that works for you. Share it when you find it, so perhaps others can benefit.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

I'm more upset that it costs more to repair my fridge than get a new one


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## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

PBear said:


> You need to keep in mind that people in HAPPY marriages aren't typically on the Internet looking for forums to spout off on how happy they are. They're out having fun with their spouse, enjoying other hobbies, etc. People usual come to forums like this because their marriages are on their last legs, and they're desperately trying to patch them up.
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


A fair point, I never considered that point of view, thank you. Still, It seems that not only is this behavior becoming more prevalent but more acceptable.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

IIJokerII said:


> A fair point, I never considered that point of view, thank you. Still, It seems that not only is this behavior becoming more prevalent but more acceptable.


Maybe so, but I think it's better than being locked into misery and possibly even abuse by repressive religious and cultural brainwashing.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

And don't get me wrong, I'm not disagreeing with you. Between society's current level of entitlement and social media and a general acceptance of divorce, marriages in general are much more likely to end before the "death do us part". Is that the end of the world? Dunno... I'm in no rush to get married again, but I'm not dead set against it, either. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

My modern day marriage is great. As Pbear wrote, you are seeing a microcosm of mostly broken people on the marriage web sites. That's a shame because some of us came to these sites to look for ways to strengthen something that is already solid. Not all of us on TAM are here because we're experiencing a crisis, but we are unfortunately a minority. I believe there is a silent majority that views marriage as good overall. Because they're happy - or at least content - you won't find them here. Some will come.


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

If I knew then what I know now about marriage I would never...EVERRRRRR get married. 

It just devolves into a meaningless cohabitation that resembles a business venture more than a sharing of love. It BS is what it is.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

I sort of agree with you in that, yes, absolutely, marriage is not for the faint of heart. 

On the other hand, a lot of the stuff you have here:


> Work, work, work, suffer the lash of the financial demand imposed by your family's needs. Home, car, insurance, electric, heat, food.....and internet, newer car, new furniture, cell phones, children's sports, clothes and other activities, and whatever else the Mrs. says would be great for the family "I want to provide to my children the things I never had growing up:.. So time, precious time is sacrificed. Time from you wife, your children, hell maybe even you dog too. Your home becomes strange to you and whatever time you have at home ends up being another demand. Fix this, take care of this, mow the lawn, time to read storied, get children taken care of, fix the dryer........................ Each do represents something, here lets add some more...............Add what you see fit. I am now neglectful and checked out. I have not met her needs as well as being a failure for not reading her mind. I must simply not care or love her. It is a reason to cheat.


is required to live as a single person. Work and home and fixing dryers and insurance doesn't go away if you're single. Many people have kids and are single/divorced, so those responsibilities don't go away, either.

Yes, the responsibilities are multiplied in a marriage, but they multiplied most because you had kids. In theory, there are two poeple (husband and wife) who are equally responsible. If one isn't pulling their weight, then the other is over-burdened and miserable. That's when things need to change, and some choose divorce and some don't. I wouldn't attribute either choice on modern day or society, but on the individuals.

Do you think you'd be happier if you'd never married and never had kids?


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

IIJokerII said:


> But in short, modern day marriage sucks, unlike past ones (Which were also not perfect or free from infidelity) in nearly all cases if something was broke they fixed it, now, people simply toss it away and move on, as if marriage is now just a consumable item. It just plan ol' sucks.


Joker...the good old days were not that good for many. Yes, infidelity ran wild even in those days. Difference it was *really* frowned upon. Today, not so much. Some people are predisposed to stray. Does not matter what era. The difference is there are many ways to accomplish it in today's world. As you pointed out...text, email, dating sites and a plethora of other apps/programs to complete the mission. The biggest difference I see from then to today...getting a D is easier. The stigmata of the D is gone. It is easier to throw it away and move on.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> My modern day marriage is great. As Pbear wrote, you are seeing a microcosm of mostly broken people on the marriage web sites. That's a shame because some of us came to these sites to look for ways to strengthen something that is already solid. Not all of us on TAM are here because we're experiencing a crisis, but we are unfortunately a minority. I believe there is a silent majority that views marriage as good overall. Because they're happy - or at least content - you won't find them here. Some will come.


Very true. I'm happy as a lark in my marriage. I found this site by searching ways to perpetuate what we already have. 

I also find more people in distress over things find the time to post on the internet. Those that are experiencing good times have little reason to seek a forum and start posting about it.

I liken it to church. Every service the Pastor states he knows why the congregation is there. Hurting, depressed, lost, etc. I ask my wife...is there anyone who attends this particular church happy? We might be the only two....


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

I'll call it-

Life is up and down

but I find it worth living


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Can't find much fault in your logic joker. Yes TAM is hardly a place that you will find many happy stories but it isn't designed to be either. 

But overall is the state of marriage better today than in my fathers or grandfathers era? I would say no. People took pride in things then and viewed marriage as an actual commitment. Today is about me me me first and when you do that it's hard to make any relationship work. Rare that I have encountered a marriage where both people a working for the other instead of the self first. But when they do you can tell both people are happy. I believe that healthy marriages should interact that way but can't find women like that at my age. They are all taken And rightfully so..... I should have made a better choice when younger.

So now I don't really believe in marriage. Pretty sure my x wife has given up as she had decimated now two men through 2 marriages. So I imagine our daughters will be more than jaded with the whole marriage prospect. And so it will go. I have said before and still believe that my grandkids era will be one where only the super religious and overly romantic ever consider marriage. That is sad to me.


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## 2xloser (May 8, 2011)

I no longer believe in marriage for me at least. I've been thinking of starting a movement, or "a religion" that endorses my new 'big idea' invention, "The 7-Year-Renewable-Marriage".

It comes as a business agreement, with stipulation for what happens if either party chooses not to renew in Year 7 -- allowing for kids, financial ups and downs, home ownership, etc. Kind of a built-in mutual prenup, with the expectation that it will be executed, unless specifically replaced with a new marital agreement.

If you're not happy at that point, you simply don't renew. If you would just like to explore options, you don't renew. If you think you've found your soulmate, you renew -- for another 7 years.

It would also come with severe penalties for infidelity built in. 
Legally and binding. The world today seems like we could use it.

Think I'm gonna write a book.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Gonna charge $22.22 for the book?


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## TryingToRecover (Dec 19, 2012)

If WS goes before me or we ever divorce, I can't see ever wanting to be married again. We've had and raised three kids and even if I were younger, I don't want more.....can't have any more now anyway. Have a good job with good pay/benefits; not rich but would do fine on my own. I'm pretty introverted so I don't need/want people around all the time. I do have a small but good group of friends, plenty of acquaintances. Have plenty of hobbies and other things I'm interested in. 

Marriage is a lot of work. My first marriage lasted only a few years, my ex and I were both too young and dumb for marriage. I've been married to WS for over 20 years and even aside from the adultery, well, being married is a lot of work and I'm tired, lol. 

WS and his cheating has left me jaded and more suspicious of others. I don't suspect I would make a good partner to someone else, and don't think I'd care enough to try. Hell, haven't dated anyone since my WS and I were dating when I was still in my 20's, and I wouldn't know the first thing about dating these days.

Funny, we have three children in their 20's and NONE of them seem the slightest bit interested in even dating anyone on a serious level. All three are attractive but our daughter has been described by many as drop-dead gorgeous and I know she does get a lot of attention from men. However, since a serious boyfriend cheated on her a few years ago  well, she chooses not to date much at all anymore. She works, travels, socializes....little to no dating. Right now feels the idea of marriage is a "trap." 

A loooooong time ago my mother cheated on my father left, right and center. Terrible marriage by both their descriptions; I was only 3 when they split, have no memories of them together. Mom has remarried several times (serial cheater) since then  while my dad never remarried - I don't blame him. He was in a relationship with a great lady, finally, but he died a few years back. She died about 1.5 years after he did and I'm convinced, in part, it was due to a broken heart .


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## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

norajane said:


> I sort of agree with you in that, yes, absolutely, marriage is not for the faint of heart.
> 
> On the other hand, a lot of the stuff you have here:
> is required to live as a single person. Work and home and fixing dryers and insurance doesn't go away if you're single. Many people have kids and are single/divorced, so those responsibilities don't go away, either.
> ...


I am not questioning the logic of taxation of domestic duties or other daily, monthly, yearly chores. I am merely pointing out that I am not penalized for neglect by doing such tasks. Work, it's a given, and house hold chores are needed to be done, so why all the resentment doing what is required.

Lets say we enter fiction for a moment and I have a wife that works, cook, cleans and whatever to aid me and then still, after all that labor, want to devote time with me in whatever fashion she could. I think I would appreciate it rather than sneer or critique or be willing to reward this effort with self righteous infidelity because she didn't make me feel special. I should have felt that way by her efforts to please me and take care of me, not punish her for doing my half, or whole, of the work required to sustain a family.

As for the being happy if I never had children part, that is a tough question to answer, but considering I can procreate with any healthy female at present, and obviously past, it's hard to gauge, my mind is a whirlwind right now and I do not wish to entertain that thought as my anger for her may make me spuot something stupid.


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## Rugs (Apr 12, 2013)

I think modern marriage is great. Just think of all the long-suffering people from previous generations who had to stay with their spouse under any and all circumstances. 

These days there is rarely any stigma of being single and you can be unmarried and have children. 
Women can now support themselves and not depend on a man. 

Divorce is fairly easy to obtain if that is your choice. 

I'm so glad to have gone through my married and divorced life in this time I can't begin to describe. 

And yes, happy people are not here on marriage forums. 

We should also not blame ourselves for taking the plunge and getting married. Every married person here had good times with their partner. Life is always an adventure and never as we planned. No one gets off scott- free. 

My sixteen year old daughter is sitting in the same room as I am with her studies on her lap. She's thinking of becoming an pediatric oncologist and not who she might marry. 

My mother on the other hand was taught cooking and sewing in high school so she would be good marriage material and find a man to support her. It didn't turn out so well for my mother.

As a female, I'm grateful for the times we live in. 

I don't think people have really changed that much. There have always been cheaters, crooks, pedophiles....... There's just a more populated world and less secrets. 

Ramble, ramble.....


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## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

Wolf1974 said:


> Can't find much fault in your logic joker. Yes TAM is hardly a place that you will find many happy stories but it isn't designed to be either.
> 
> But overall is the state of marriage better today than in my fathers or grandfathers era? I would say no. People took pride in things then and viewed marriage as an actual commitment. Today is about me me me first and when you do that it's hard to make any relationship work. Rare that I have encountered a marriage where both people a working for the other instead of the self first. But when they do you can tell both people are happy. I believe that healthy marriages should interact that way but can't find women like that at my age. They are all taken And rightfully so..... I should have made a better choice when younger.
> 
> So now I don't really believe in marriage. Pretty sure my x wife has given up as she had decimated now two men through 2 marriages. So I imagine our daughters will be more than jaded with the whole marriage prospect. And so it will go. I have said before and still believe that my grandkids era will be one where only the super religious and overly romantic ever consider marriage. That is sad to me.


I honestly think it should be treated like any other contract, abiding with actual consequences. i can't remember an instance where a severely disruptive employee who was frequently absent, abusive, disloyal and violent would be able to quit, or be fired WITH benefits, support and an essential exit fee. 

If the betrayed spouse was able to prove any instance of intolerable conditions I say they are entitled to keep everything, since mutual divorces are rarely contested I see this as being the only way to curb this kind of behavior.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

IIJokerII said:


> Lets say we enter fiction for a moment and I have a wife that works, cook, cleans and whatever to aid me and then still, after all that labor, want to devote time with me in whatever fashion she could. I think I would appreciate it rather than sneer or critique or be willing to reward this effort with self righteous infidelity because she didn't make me feel special. I should have felt that way by her efforts to please me and take care of me, not punish her for doing my half, or whole, of the work required to sustain a family.


This is not fiction in my home. My W favorite time of day is getting into bed with me to spend time watching TV, relaxing and more. This even after cooking, cleaning and looking after our daughters. I do appreciate it. She appreciates I'm tied to a desk all day. To show show her appreciation she does everything all week so we have our weekends free. I make sure we have good use of that time together. In short, she cares for me. I care for her. We both know our limitations. We pick each other up. The marriage is very good. I can not say from where I'm standing modern era marriage sucks. I'm certain that other can. For these folks I truly hope they find that place of peace and contentment with a significant other.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Yeswecan said:


> This is not fiction in my home. My W favorite time of day is getting into bed with me to spend time watching TV, relaxing and more. This even after cooking, cleaning and looking after our daughters. I do appreciate it. She appreciates I'm tied to a desk all day. To show show her appreciation she does everything all week so we have our weekends free. I make sure we have good use of that time together. In short, she cares for me. I care for her. We both know our limitations. We pick each other up. The marriage is very good. I can not say from where I'm standing modern era marriage sucks. I'm certain that other can. For these folks I truly hope they find that place of peace and contentment with a significant other.


My wife and I spend time together frequently as a couple and as friends. We both work out of the house. She watches kids and I work from home with travel to customers on a frequent basis. We share most of the inside and outside work together, though I'd say she does more housework because she can do spend a little time during the week doing that. She appreciates the hard work I do and I appreciate what she does. We don't burn it up in the sex dept (only 3 to 5 times a week), but we have a lot of fun together with that and everything else we do together. We both tell each other when something the other does bothers us, and we hash it out right away. We have weekly date nights, her GNO's are only with good friends at safe places like restaurants or homes (no bars or meat markets). We have a healthy amount of respect for each other, and neither takes crap from the other. We have 3 kids, and we think of ourselves as a team raise them. 

To me, marriage is rewarding and fills a void I would have if I was alone.


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## HarryDoyle (Jan 19, 2013)

The more things change the more things stay the same. I would much rather have it the way it is now than the way it's been in the past. Arranged marriages, divorce almost impossible and very stigmatizing, especially for the women, physical abuse common, even expected in many cultures, women judged by how many babies they could push out, not on their value as a person. 

Sure things seem worse, and in some cases they may be, but at least we have choices now. This forum is like turning over a large rock. When you turn over a rock and look underneath there are bugs and spiders and worms and all sorts of things. They didn't just show up when you turned over the rock, They've always been there, hiding in the dark soil under the stone. CWI is just like that, all this crap has always existed, in different forms, but always here. But thanks to modern media it is now exposed for all the world to see.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Married but Happy said:


> Maybe so, but I think it's better than being locked into misery and possibly even abuse by repressive religious and cultural brainwashing.


Current cultural standards are the result of..............progressive brain washing via the media and higher education.

As a child of he sixties I have seen plenty. The biggest factor for change has been birth control, abortion, divorce law, both parents working, media.

Most media is subtle. Newspapers and tv news are so blatantly biased, people no longer trust or believe them. The result is newspapers and ratings going down the drain. The excuse that its the internet is just what they tell themselves to keep from facing reality. The only people I know that still take the paper do it for sports and coupons.

The proof is in the position people have been put in. Man bad, woman good. You can't go a week without seeing male bashing in the media, television shows, movies, etc. If a man doesn't act like a girl he's a monster.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Sooooo go back to old fashioned marriages where women stayed home and didn't pursue dreams, just had a bunch of kids and men could do whatever they wanted because they made the money? And the wives had to be ok with that because wtf else is she going to do in life?

lmao Ok no.


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## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

Rugs said:


> I think modern marriage is great. Just think of all the long-suffering people from previous generations who had to stay with their spouse under any and all circumstances.
> 
> These days there is rarely any stigma of being single and you can be unmarried and have children.
> Women can now support themselves and not depend on a man.
> ...


This is not a misogyny issue or gender bias blast, men too are a-holes who practice this destructive behavior. Buts lets be real here, a tearful woman can garnish so much support and trust that even a mans mother may be duped into questioning his sons character, let alone a judge or police officer. 

I am also not blaming myself as that would be like choosing a job at a place where I got laid off from, but I would harbor resentment if the company I worked for fired me for a more lucrative employee field, oh wait that happened already, Ford, GM, everything sold at a retail store.

May I also point out that you seem passively bitter about a Woman's perspective or social expectation of marriage.


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## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

that_girl said:


> Sooooo go back to old fashioned marriages where women stayed home and didn't pursue dreams, just had a bunch of kids and men could do whatever they wanted because they made the money? And the wives had to be ok with that because wtf else is she going to do in life?
> 
> lmao Ok no.


Again this is not a gender bias or pre-millennium call for women to get back in the kitchen. But as I have read all too often " Me and my Wife have been married xxx years..." More often than not apparently Women are more susceptible to rationalization of her infidelity. Men simply make a snap judgement and go with it, that's why more often than not they cower before their betrayed wives hoping she'll be lenient. How much of this has to do with the gender bias court system, something I think we can all agree on regardless of our sex, is an open question.

I am also not ignorant to assume the whole woman vs men crap about who is the more profane cheater. What I am saying is that if real punishments were suffered by the person responible for causing the breakdown of the marriage people would think twice or more about introducing abuse, chaos, drugs, infidelity or whatever one spouse would deem as reasonably intolerable. Liking a sports team or certain brand of milk is not a reasonable condition.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

We were the one who said new marriage is stupid. lol.

Old marriage was misogynistic. I just think it's people in general these days. No one is forced to grow up. No one is forced to do anything for themselves because mommy does it. Grown a## people in their mid 20s who have moms doing things for them and they still live at home. Then they get the brilliant idea to get married. Not ready.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

The high level of divorce suggests marriage is not working, at least not for a lifetime. Many people who don't marry actually would like to, but they don't have enough money. Poor people can't afford marriage. The well educated and wealthy cheat less because they 1) have more to lose 2) are more on top of things.

Many of the skill sets that made men and women complimentary to each other in a rural setting no longer exist. Women no longer sew. Our clothes come from China. Men no longer read maps. Everyone looks at their smart phone.

Women have Hitachi wands and men have porn. Families are not bound together by 7 or 8 half starving kids. There are just a couple on average.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

lol Wands and porn.

Not in this house, but yea, I can see how that could change things. Hell, my marriage is bad without those things.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

LongWalk said:


> The high level of divorce suggests marriage is not working, at least not for a lifetime. Many people who don't marry actually would like to, but they don't have enough money. Poor people can't afford marriage. The well educated and wealthy cheat less because they 1) have more to lose 2) are more on top of things.
> 
> Many of the skill sets that made men and women complementary to each other in a rural setting no longer exist. Women no longer sew. Our clothes come from China. Men no longer read maps. Everyone looks at their smart phone.
> 
> Women have Hitachi wands and men have porn. Families are not bound together by 7 or 8 half starving kids. There are just a couple on average.


The high level of divorce is more than likely attributed to the ease of it, no true stigmata for divorcing and people not really needing to be responsible for their actions/inactions. 

You don't need money to marry. $30 and a judge. That's it.

The wealthy cheat like anyone else. The only difference is getting a room at the Hilton and not the Super 8 Hotel. 

Sewing made women complimentary to men? Interesting. 

There are no magical wands or porn in our home. Only me with my built in wand and our imaginations making our own personal porn.


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

For traditionalists and the many of those that find themselves in this forum, it does seem pretty messed up. Its sad more than anything- that people can be so shallow, selfish, and disappointing.

Wasn't the idea that a husband would provide and protect, a wife would be nurturing and devoted? Is there really something wrong, hateful or demeaning in that? Why do those simple duties provoke people?


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Because in this day and age, everyone is expected to be everything and people disappoint. 

I'd love to rely on my husband to provide and protect but he's proven he can't. So I do.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

that_girl said:


> Because in this day and age, everyone is expected to be everything and people disappoint.
> 
> I'd love to rely on my husband to provide and protect but he's proven he can't. So I do.


And I would have loved my x to not screw her co workers. We chose poorly


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Men eff up too.

People eff up.

It has nothing to do with marriage or anything of the sort. Some people rock the marriage thing. Some people are shady by nature and we don't notice before marriage...or we ignore. We pick poorly.

But it has nothing to do with marriage these days. Marriage is the same. People have changed. Men are raised differently now. Women are raised differently. People want everything instant and throw things away when broken.

I'm not judging...it's just what I see...which is why it's hard for me to leave my marriage because I did mean my vows. I just didn't think I'd get so effed over.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

I believed my marriage would be great, then infidelity struck. Hasn't been great lately, but I always believed you will get out of your marriage what you put into the marriage. My vows meant everything to me, it was my word. I realize now that I became complacent in my marriage. While WW should not have cheated and it was her decision wholly, the marriage wasn't perfect. I see that now after IC sessions and self reflecting. 

Marriage hasn't really changed, it's still two people exchanging vows. I will say the innocence of my marriage is gone due to infidelity. My marriage is salvageable if WW and I work hard. So far we have done hard the hard work. Lately I've been in a rage but we continue to move forward. A little slow at the moment, but forward. In my opinion people have changed. Morals don't appear to be as highly regarded. Respect has been something of the past. Chivalry is a distant memory. For instance my neighbors daughter went to homecoming last year. I happened to see the young male and her leave and he didn't open the car door for her. I still will open doors for my WW as I was raised to be a gentleman. Bottom line is people have changed. Of course what do I know, my wife cheated.


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## Ripper (Apr 1, 2014)

drifting on said:


> While WW should not have cheated and it was her decision wholly, the marriage wasn't perfect.


No marriage is perfect. Ever. At anytime.

This is the kind of reasoning that is currently going around and it makes me want to punch a kitten. A marriage is going to have ups and downs. Sometimes it is going to absolutely suck. 

The only consistent "pattern" to infidelity is the wayward spouse. The state of the marriage is irrelevant, regardless of how much the infidelity apologists want it to be. Take the worse marriage situation you know of that had a person cheat and I can guarantee that somewhere there is a another person in a similar situation that doesn't. Most wayward can't even tell you why they cheated, aside from some sort of vague "unmet needs" or because of the "feels".

Anyway, modern marriage is an absolute suckfest. Especially for males, although the occasional case of a woman getting roasted in family court does occur. Still, this is what modern marriage looks like from a male perspective;

Close to 70% of divorces are filed by women. Say good bye to half your sh*t, and when that's not enough, hello alimony.
Do Men or Women File for Divorce More Often? | Psychology Today

If you have kids, it gets better. Women awarded custody 83% of the time. It gets better, along with getting cut off from your children, you also get to pay child support. (a.k.a more alimony)
http://www.census.gov/prod/2009pubs/p60-237.pdf

If they are actually yours. Even then, depending on where you are, you might still get to pay.
Paternity fraud - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'll wrap it up, I don't feel like sourcing anything else right now. If you still need more, look up divorced men and suicide. The cost of supporting two households. The rate of child sexual abuse when the ex brings a thug home. All the issues children have raised in a fatherless home. (future inmates of America) The Bradley Amendment which makes it so you can't reduce child support without going back through the entire court process. Don't forget, if you are crazy enough to re-marry, your new spouse's income gets factored and your child support and alimony payments can increase.

What was we talking about again?


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Women used to take a man's last name, rubbing out their identity. I think we find that strange. But the reason is clear. Having their husband's name implied that his sperm produced their children. This was never always true. Couples had more children, so it was easier for a wife to slip in a children from other men and pass them off as her husband's.

Today modern marriage provides replacement. A husband and wife like AMU and Harken, who have 4 daughters, is not usual. He could DNA test his children and decide whether to divorce if one was not his. I imply nothing about their marriage. They are just an example. But in the event of divorce women don't starve. They have jobs. Alimony and child support compel ex husband's to support them. If dad is a dead beat, the state steps in.

From the male perspective there is no punishment for unfaithful wives. Women who are replaced by younger women don't have any recourse either.

The world was never perfect but it was different. But we have our fantasies of justice. MMA star Ronda Rousey can shout "arm bar" and break elbow of any guy who lets her down. But then even a millionaire who beats his wife or child can be pilloried on the Internet.


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## murphy5 (May 1, 2014)

there ARE a lot of negative factors nowadays:
internet resources making it easy to cheat
availability to the most virulent types of porn in your own home
the poor economy
TMI about scary stuff (terrorists, every type of food know to man casing some medical trouble, etc)
proliferation of bad advice about cheating (huffpost, cosmopolitan, AM, etc)
a less religious/moral society, where cheating is openly embraced rather than talked of in hushed tones
A less resilient populace! How would today's entitled masses respond to WWII, the great depression, hunger, race riots?

finding a clean, down to earth, wholesome partner is pretty hard to do.


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## TheFlood117 (Mar 24, 2013)

Yep. And younger men are marrying less and less, it's a dying institution. I will never marry again. The field is just to much open for the taking. Being a pick up artist has never been easier, I don't even have try very hard now, like I did back in the day. Just stay in Shape. Dress Sharp and boom, it's like a fat kid in a candy store.


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## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

Ripper said:


> No marriage is perfect. Ever. At anytime.
> 
> This is the kind of reasoning that is currently going around and it makes me want to punch a kitten. A marriage is going to have ups and downs. Sometimes it is going to absolutely suck.
> 
> ...


This statement couldn't be more accurate as it is telling. Since most stereotypes are derived from perception or even fact this is the one aspect of Marriage that bothers me the most, the aftermath of an adulterous Wife. Whether the man is the offender or not more often than not Women make out like bandits while the Ex-Husband is cast out of existence and constantly in Financial hell. Now if he was the aggressor and cheater, he got what he deserved.

But,

If he is the BS then the courts could not only care less but seem to also encourage this by making it known that they could care less showing the public that this is not an issue and is acceptable. Now the court systems love to include psychiatric testimony, therapist's and other experts who like to document and detail the cascading consequences of the ill effects of environments and households that produce harmful and stressful situations in many other court circumstances including Divorce, but the effect that infidelity has on ones partner or family dynamic goes overlooked. I know I may not be totally accurate but I am sure most married men do not want their wives to come home with the remnants of another mans seed within her, thinking about another man in an intimate level or both. Although most WS do take the time to hide their actions I can only imagine the hurt, man or woman, one feels when their WS does it right in view with no regard to their spouses feelings.

In fact, doesn't anyone find it odd that the justice system and even the workplace HR departments will ensure that a zero tolerance for harassment or undue emotional stress is employed to prevent disastrous situations from being introduced to any undeserving or even deserving individuals yet do nothing when the partner I bonded with emotionally attacks me in any way possible, takes from me the life I once had, enforced me to pay for her new life all the while being left to drown in the painful echo of a past that once was.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

IIJokerII said:


> This statement couldn't be more accurate as it is telling. Since most stereotypes are derived from perception or even fact this is the one aspect of Marriage that bothers me the most, the aftermath of an adulterous Wife. Whether the man is the offender or not more often than not Women make out like bandits while the Ex-Husband is cast out of existence and constantly in Financial hell. Now if he was the aggressor and cheater, he got what he deserved.
> 
> But,
> 
> ...


I agree with you 100% that the court system and handling of divorce is very skewed. It certainly leaves a bitter taste in the mouth. Perhaps modern marriage is not really the issue? It is the aftermath of infidelity, divorce and what remains of the rubble.


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## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

Yeswecan said:


> I agree with you 100% that the court system and handling of divorce is very skewed. It certainly leaves a bitter taste in the mouth. Perhaps modern marriage is not really the issue? It is the aftermath of infidelity, divorce and what remains of the rubble.


Yes, but if one was not married the lasting stigma of Divorce, or endurance more so of Divorce, would not even be a factor, with only children being the issue if there were any in the picture.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

IIJokerII said:


> Yes, but if one was not married the lasting stigma of Divorce, or endurance more so of Divorce, would not even be a factor, with only children being the issue if there were any in the picture.


Perhaps. Might depend on the state? Common law marriage after a predetermined time? If there are no kids involved D should be cut and dry. My BIL is separated. He has twins. After child support and everything else there was nothing left to get a place to live. BIL spent a few years renting a simple room. He never looked to consult a lawyer. Once he did and got advisement the table turned for him. He now has the kids every other weekend and two days out of the week. The child support he was paying dropped to below $100.00. He is now in a townhouse with a girlfriend. His marital home the W is still in but she pays for it. It is not the ideal situation by any means but looking to level the playing field it made his life a bit better. 

His separation was strange. His W simply gave up. Stopped cleaning house. Stopped caring for him in all respects. Stopped friggin taking showers!!! Let herself go physically. It was almost like getting married was her mission. Did everything. Once the mission was complete it all stopped. Odd indeed.


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## lancaster (Dec 2, 2013)

I think there are a lot of happy marriages out there, although mine is not one of them. Most of my relatives are happy I believe and I doubt they feel the need to post on TAM.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Yeswecan said:


> Joker...the good old days were not that good for many. Yes, infidelity ran wild even in those days. Difference it was *really* frowned upon. Today, not so much. Some people are predisposed to stray. Does not matter what era. The difference is there are many ways to accomplish it in today's world. As you pointed out...text, email, dating sites and a plethora of other apps/programs to complete the mission. The biggest difference I see from then to today...getting a D is easier. The stigmata of the D is gone. It is easier to throw it away and move on.


I'll second this. There were few divorces, mainly because the law set impossible standards for a divorce. The result was that there were tons of unhappy marriages with kids maimed by the horrible home atmosphere they grew up with. And as Yeswecan says, those women (it was always the woman's fault) were stigmatized big time.

Add to that the difficulties of birth control. No pills, IUD's, etc. Just condoms and they were illegal in some states.

Since abortion was illegal, though the well-off could have various procedures that produced the same effect, illegal abortions were common along with the results of botched abortions. And of course, there were plenty of unwanted pregnancies. That was fun for the kids too.

Teen agers got pregnant. In middle and upper class areas they just vanished from school because they were spending a year in Florida or Alaska or wherever. And they'd come back looking slightly different but often without the child who was often put up for adoption or turned into a late pregnancy of the teen ager's mother.

In the working class, the pregnant child just dropped out of school. Period.

No, I'm not making any of this up. Sadly, those days have become enshrined as "golden years" mainly because of Hollywood's ability to avoid reality in movies.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

sidney2718 said:


> I'll second this. There were few divorces, mainly because the law set impossible standards for a divorce. The result was that there were tons of unhappy marriages with kids maimed by the horrible home atmosphere they grew up with. And as Yeswecan says, those women (it was always the woman's fault) were stigmatized big time.
> 
> Add to that the difficulties of birth control. No pills, IUD's, etc. Just condoms and they were illegal in some states.
> 
> ...


Correct on all counts. The good old days were just not good for some folks. Nice post Sidney!

Read up on the 50's era were assimilation was the to be the norm. Many rebelled against it. Interesting stuff the good old days.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

The times when I was born are much different then today. We're the times simpler, I doubt it. My father worked hard for what he received in life. He had troubles as we all do but persevered and is happy in ha retirement. Part of the difference is the dollar was much stronger when he was twenty one than when I was twenty one. The year I was born an aunt of mine became pregnant. She went to Colorado to have the baby and everyone was told she was living with family elsewhere. It was an embarrassment to your family. I don't think it's right but that is how the times were.

Compare pregnancy to sixteen year old girls now to 1970. The increase is staggering. People changed. Times have changed also, and perhaps we lost some good things in those years. Perhaps with divorce as accepted today, compared to years past, we got something good in that women are no longer trapped in marriage. Being stung by infidelity, I just wish my WW had divorced me before her affair. 

Before my grandfather died I was fortunate enough to have a conversation with him. Our conversation was about inventions during his lifetime. Things we all believe to be normal. Plumbing, washing machines, tv, dishwashers etc.. Times and people changed, I'm changing now, I just hope it's an improvement.


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## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

I really hope nobody thinks I am pining for the good ol days when the man made the decisions and the wife made the sandwiches. I do not fear equality, although there are double standards which I must admit do seem to fit. 

What I am saying is that the logistical side of people in an affair shuts down, rationalization sets in and presto a trail is blazed from infidelity, whoever may burn need no sympathy, at least from the WS point of view. Because of this effect and the lack thereof of judicial support for those who have been afflicted by the fallout of this behavior. 

I am also willing to bet most people on this forum and abroad would suggest that lack of discipline or ability to discipline one's child, not abuse mind you, has made it very difficult to raise a child that is not indoctrinated by consumerism, egotism and entitlement. No, I am not suggesting bring back the flak or switch wire but ask most people, what did you fear more, the consequences of being punished or the moral guilt of breaking the rules. I don't fear speeding, I fear the ticket, I don't fear fighting someone if the situation warrants it, I fear getting thrown in jail and the possible lawsuit.

That being said, if the spouse who was a wayward was proven to have violated his or her contract he/she should be void of whatever materials and benefits they may have had. Although laws such as loss of consortium and alienation of affection do exist they seem to remain silent rather than practice. Remember, it is not only loss of current assets but future ones as well. 

I understand the reason for alimony and child support and support them immensely. But times have changed as well as expectations. unlike the past when a woman had no say or ability to get a job full alimony was a must. But lets say she pushed for her husband to work so she could bond with her child "like the good ol day's" and then uses this to punish him in court?

Child support is also a hot issue that the courts seem to disregard as nothing more than a math table taking nothing into account about the individual who is paying and their need to live, let alone thrive. And there is also no system in place to mitigate finances to ensure all child support is allocated to the children's needs vs the custodial parents needs. Since the economic practice of adjusting a budget to suit the ebb and flow of ones income and need for the month cannot be adjusted to suit the needs of the non-custodial parent He/She is fvcked and cannot flex his or her pay to survive. So not only is the payer punished by not seeing their children everyday, and knowing that another "parent" is in the mix but they also have to swallow that their funding is more than likely feeding the OM/OW. Try swallowing that pill.

Add in the inevitable second job or extreme amount of overtime just to survive and presto you got yourself a very damaged soul, because someone just couldn't open their mouth and talk about what was bothering them or simply make proper arrangements to leave an unfulfilled marriage and/or relationship with a cordial exit.


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

IIJokerII said:


> A fair point, I never considered that point of view, thank you. Still, It seems that not only is this behavior becoming more prevalent but more acceptable.


I am the A hole in the family for holding a family member accountable for her actions.

Doesn't bother me a bit.

55


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## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

just got it 55 said:


> I am the A hole in the family for holding a family member accountable for her actions.
> 
> Doesn't bother me a bit.
> 
> 55


Dude I feel your pain. I had the nerve to ask my Wife to stop neglecting the children and or home, cheating on me, demonizing me and then say she came to resent me after I said I was going to kick her out and keep the children after I was away for a week and the house looked like a fragmentation grenade hit it, kids went unshowered for days and were eating off of dirty dishes with food refuse everywhere all the while she was shunning them to play her online affair medium or have phone time together.

I am now required to burn in hell. I have no idea who this woman is.


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## Quantmflux (Feb 6, 2013)

Every generation. And I mean *every* generation. People in their middle age sit. And they pine. For "how it was".

And *every* generation. They really don't *know* how it was. Why? Well because they weren't actually alive! I mean are some of you 98 years old that somehow you're pining for how great it was to be married in the 50s? 

Each generation people that *personally* are finding the world change around them, and don't like it, predict "THE END IS NIGH!"

And each generation its BS.

Sorry to be blunt, but it is. THE INTERNET WILL DESTROY US! OK. Did you know my grandmother told me that people used to say that about *telephones*? Did you know that HER grandmother told her people said that about THE TELEGRAPH.

Some people are made supremely uncomfortable by societal evolution and especially the "evils" of technology (same evil that allows you to actually live long enough to rant about midlife problems on a web forum which the same technology also provided). It *really* bothers them. And so they need to project and "prove" why it is *a very bad thing* (tm) for the ENTIRE SPECIES.

But it isn't. It's really not. People tend to come to forums jaded and with an extreme and cynical view. What you find on forums is confirmation bias. Others come as observers and read too much into what they see there. "ALL MEN ARE DOGS!" "ALL WOMEN ARE CHEATING SKANKS!" I KNOW. I read it on a forum! Gotta be CRAZY to settle down! Meanwhile the world keeps turning and outside of forum land the labels and role dynamics may change a bit, but the fundamentals not so much.

Young kids today have lots of choices. Their world is different. There is good, and there is bad. There always has been. 

Would you like to have lived in Ancient Rome? Probably not. But guess what? People made it work.

Humans have a need for companionship and societal bonds. They'll find each other and live together and reproduce. Will it be "the bond of legal wedlock"? Who knows. Who the hell CARES really?

Cats will be sleeping with dogs and it will rain fire!

Nah. It will be fine. And eventually the older generation dies off so they don't have to "suffer" through how "horrible" it has all gotten.

Were there internet forums in Mesopotamia there would have been threads JUST like this. After all, Hammurabi allowed women to divorce even under the rules of patriarchy (about 5000 years ago if you're keeping score btw)


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## BradWesley (May 24, 2013)

The stigma of infidelity and divorce will be all but removed when all the adultery laws are abolished, in the U.S. within the next ten years.


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## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

BradWesley said:


> The stigma of infidelity and divorce will be all but removed when all the adultery laws are abolished, in the U.S. within the next ten years.


Since there is no tone of voice to draw from this statement, what is your feelings about that?


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## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

Quantmflux said:


> Every generation. And I mean *every* generation. People in their middle age sit. And they pine. For "how it was".
> 
> And *every* generation. They really don't *know* how it was. Why? Well because they weren't actually alive! I mean are some of you 98 years old that somehow you're pining for how great it was to be married in the 50s?
> 
> ...


So by this indication you'd agree that it is ok for someone to burn down the place one used to work at for a seemingly better job rather than talk to there boss about their dissatisfaction first in an honest attempt to better their work environment. If after you don't feel like your feelings are heard let alone addressed then quit.

And remember, after the arson the arsonist gets the benefits of being an being a former employee, half to be exact, whether they earned it or not, they merely showed up to fill a requirement, a need, a position, that was met with trust and expectations. You don't reward that with malcontent with emotional purgatory. 

What next, will people applaud a doctor abandoning his responsibilities to "find himself/herself" because one day someone told them what they wanted to hear in mid care?


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

BradWesley said:


> The stigma of infidelity and divorce will be all but removed when all the adultery laws are abolished, in the U.S. within the next ten years.


Perhaps. We cannot account for the morals that are associated with infidelity and divorce. There are really no notable laws for infidelity that I'm aware of. However, there is the religious portion to contend with for both infidelity and divorce. Abolishing the law will have very little affect IMO.


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

Were I a young man today

I would never get married Unless you could guarantee the same person I married

I fear for my sons

55


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## BradWesley (May 24, 2013)

Yeswecan said:


> Perhaps. We cannot account for the morals that are associated with infidelity and divorce. There are really no notable laws for infidelity that I'm aware of. However, there is the religious portion to contend with for both infidelity and divorce. Abolishing the law will have very little affect IMO.


The whole point is to streamline divorce as much as possible, and to standardize the laws as much as possible.

A few states have very antiquated laws that should be removed.

Also, the government is really not in the morality business, when it comes to activities between two consenting adults


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

BradWesley said:


> The stigma of infidelity and divorce will be all but removed when all the adultery laws are abolished, in the U.S. within the next ten years.


Brad it seems to me that it already has

This is why the feeling of rage and injustice is so strong years after D When a man gets left with nothing if he was the betrayed

When a woman is the betrayed there is no difference in the law or D settlement (in the vast majority of states)she gets the same consideration.

The disparity in the laws is staggering.



55


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## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

just got it 55 said:


> Brad it seems to me that it already has
> 
> This is why the feeling of rage and injustice is so strong years after D When a man gets left with nothing if he was the betrayed
> 
> ...


Ba-ba-ba-bingo was his namo. I can't imagine a situation where a man is pleased to lose half or more of his possessions and earnings, past, present and future, all the while know not only is his money going towards a new relationship his ex started during their marriage, in his former home mind you, but also towards his children for "support" that is not guaranteed to be used in such manner.


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

IIJokerII said:


> Ba-ba-ba-bingo was his namo. I can't imagine a situation where a man is pleased to lose half or more of his possessions and earnings, past, present and future, all the while know not only is his money going towards a new relationship his ex started during their marriage, in his former home mind you, but also towards his children for "support" that is not guaranteed to be used in such manner.


Abso-fvcking-lutly true

And fvcking sickening

Where is a mans/father representation in our lame government

Make me have subversive thoughts.

55


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

When all this "happiness" started my initial thought was to divorce. Then I learned our marriage wasn't perfect, in fact it was barely surviving. It is WW's affair to own individually, but I wasn't perfect by any means so I own half the marriage problems. Divorce meant many consequences I didn't want. My kids would have an every other weekend dad, maybe once or twice during the week.I can't be without my kids, yet I couldn't stay just for them only. I had to think hard for a solution that was best for me and then my kids and wife. 

I thought several times my wife is a good mom. Her affair was at work and during work. At no time did she ever leave during off hours to go meet the OM. WW never brought the kids around OM. This was important to me, and a major factor on deciding to R.

If I divorced my WW I stand to lose many things. I say things because I would lose money, half my pension, my home, and alimony on top. I can make more money, live in some sort of dwelling, and start another form of retirement fund. What I really lose and can't get back is time with my kids, and respect for myself. 

What confuses me is who is to say my WW is a better parent than I? Why should she get primary custody over me? Why does a judge, who knows neither of us, decide who is the better parent. My track record is spotless. WW's track record is tainted with infidelity so why do I lose out? Not all mothers should get custody as much as all fathers should get custody. The legal system is broken when it comes to infidelity. 

The fact I chose to R has appeared to be the correct decision for me, kids, and WW. I hate her affair, her choices, and the changes I will be having to make. As time goes by I hope to feel alive again.


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

Looks like life is a bowl of sh!t with the handle on the inside...


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

Q tip said:


> Looks like life is a bowl of sh!t with the handle on the inside...


It's worse It's a bowl of sh!t you are forced to eat.

55


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

> but did not like what I was becoming nor did I respect those I worked with.


I just saw this and wondered if you are somehow showing her that you don't like her any more. You may love her, but you don't like who she is now. I ran into a pretty similar situation. I could respect her out of a sense of acknowledgement of the difficulty of her acconplishment(s), but I did not really like her, or who she had to become to accomplish those things.


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## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

RClawson said:


> I am with you Joker and thanks for sharing your thoughts on this. I have stated countless time how shocked I was that my wife was seething for my "neglect". I never found out because she told me but because I came to TAM and learned that I needed to be a carpenter, painter, mechanic, maid, garbageman, upwardly mobile alpha male, hung (fail), blah, blah, blah.
> 
> The long and short of it. I did not have game when I was young.............I knew it. I did believe I would find someone that I would connect with, communicate with, grow with and flourish with. I think that did happen for 20 years.
> 
> ...


Dude, you sound like the all too familiar echo of defeat and lack of self esteem. Since we have yet to access that part of the brain that allows us to read minds and predict the future we still have to rely on auditory language that comes from ones mouth.

In this you Wife owed it not only to you but herself to discuss and stand firm on any and all disagreements and dissatisfaction she had regarding her feelings toward you and the marriage. Flaws not withstanding you story, like all of ours, stems from a point of seeded and unreleased resentment that is nurtured by the attention of another party and as this relationship took root you became the only perceivable point of discontent she had, with all other issues stemming from you.

You know this is not true, and like us all, are left questioning this because since it was said it must have some truth, right?

No sir. Like all betrayed spouses, men or women, we were left to bare not only our pain but their projected hatred, of themselves. Even though Divorce and adultery are not yet at the point of getting a speeding ticket in the public eye, but edging closer, it is still not seen as an act of kindness. 

One day I hope you can find yourself, as I still endure that path now, you may realize that staying with her was bring you down rather than bring her up. If you see a woman who has not felt entitled, came clean and put forth any and all efforts needed for R than best wishes to you sir. 

But if you ever get that anger and walk away when your feelings come up and are dismissed or otherwise pissed all over, Brand yourself with the courage to leave her and drop it likes its hot.


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## LeeGreen (Sep 15, 2014)

Modern era marriage - interesting to note this title - for marriage has not changed - the fact that we choose marriage a ceremonial union of two has been around for ever and a day. The fact is the modern era - which we have all been a part of supplies us all with more distractions and less reason to be living in a responsible way. Marriage is a joy - a celebration of two people who choose to love in a way that is harmonious and true. Yes there will be things that pop up sand come in to try to undo this but that is part of the evolvement of the two. Recognising that there is much to unfold as you both grow and develop is super important. Nothing is static - change is continual and it really has to be a daily practice to check in and review the foundation of you and that of the relationship. How are you both going?

The other factor is something that is lacking in so many relationships and that is appreciation - for self and for the other person. Appreciating deeply the fact that they are in your life, that they are open, the meal you cooked together. The relationship expands beyond that which we know and the joy that can be felt is amazing. Connectedness that we crave as adults we knew as children so easily and so as we get older and choose our relationships - we need also to take the responsibility about what we choose. Always to be loving no matter what ? How often do we deviate away from this and choose emotions that destroy Loving relationships. There is an endless we'll of love for us all to be with - we have to choose it and the foundation starts with us first and how we choose to relate to another. 

Modern era marriage is potentially a little more tricky because we have become so selfish in protecting our own backs. Open up let the person in - all the way in - trust and appreciate, Love them to the moon and back and walk the life you both want together in harmony.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

LeeGreen said:


> Modern era marriage - interesting to note this title - for marriage has not changed - the fact that we choose marriage a ceremonial union of two has been around for ever and a day. The fact is the modern era - which we have all been a part of supplies us all with more distractions and less reason to be living in a responsible way. Marriage is a joy - a celebration of two people who choose to love in a way that is harmonious and true. Yes there will be things that pop up sand come in to try to undo this but that is part of the evolvement of the two. Recognising that there is much to unfold as you both grow and develop is super important. Nothing is static - change is continual and it really has to be a daily practice to check in and review the foundation of you and that of the relationship. How are you both going?
> 
> The other factor is something that is lacking in so many relationships and that is appreciation - for self and for the other person. Appreciating deeply the fact that they are in your life, that they are open, the meal you cooked together. The relationship expands beyond that which we know and the joy that can be felt is amazing. Connectedness that we crave as adults we knew as children so easily and so as we get older and choose our relationships - we need also to take the responsibility about what we choose. Always to be loving no matter what ? How often do we deviate away from this and choose emotions that destroy Loving relationships. There is an endless we'll of love for us all to be with - we have to choose it and the foundation starts with us first and how we choose to relate to another.
> 
> Modern era marriage is potentially a little *more tricky because we have become so selfish in protecting our own backs.* Open up let the person in - all the way in - trust and appreciate, Love them to the moon and back and walk the life you both want together in harmony.


It's interesting you see it that way. I see it almost completely opposite. I would write that as marriage is tricky because we now have to protect our own backs because people have become so selfish.

I think that greater society has suffers from a me me me mentality. It's just implodes more in marriage cause you really rely on the two adults to sacrifice for one another. Most people today don't want to do that.


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## tryingpatience (May 7, 2014)

In my own experience of rebuilding I've met those that were broken by their failed marriages be it cheating or incompatibility and I've met those that ended up stronger. Even some that ended up in better marriages.
I started meeting married couples who had all sorts of problems. I was amazed that some of these couples never gave up on their marriages despite their problems. One couple I knew did MC to save their marriage. They did this before it got to any infidelity or cheating. So marriages where couples try to be loyal do exist. I still see them around us.
The fact that their are so many posters who believe in the values of marriage shows that their are others out there that still believe. You just haven't been matched up with one yet.


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## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

LeeGreen said:


> Modern era marriage - interesting to note this title - for marriage has not changed - the fact that we choose marriage a ceremonial union of two has been around for ever and a day. The fact is the modern era - which we have all been a part of supplies us all with more distractions and less reason to be living in a responsible way. Marriage is a joy - a celebration of two people who choose to love in a way that is harmonious and true. Yes there will be things that pop up sand come in to try to undo this but that is part of the evolvement of the two. Recognising that there is much to unfold as you both grow and develop is super important. Nothing is static - change is continual and it really has to be a daily practice to check in and review the foundation of you and that of the relationship. How are you both going?
> 
> The other factor is something that is lacking in so many relationships and that is appreciation - for self and for the other person. Appreciating deeply the fact that they are in your life, that they are open, the meal you cooked together. The relationship expands beyond that which we know and the joy that can be felt is amazing. Connectedness that we crave as adults we knew as children so easily and so as we get older and choose our relationships - we need also to take the responsibility about what we choose. Always to be loving no matter what ? How often do we deviate away from this and choose emotions that destroy Loving relationships. There is an endless we'll of love for us all to be with - we have to choose it and the foundation starts with us first and how we choose to relate to another.
> 
> Modern era marriage is potentially a little more tricky because we have become so selfish in protecting our own backs. Open up let the person in - all the way in - trust and appreciate, Love them to the moon and back and walk the life you both want together in harmony.


I suppose perception is reality with this statement so allow me the opportunity to offer a counter-opinion;

I understand that in life there are no guarantee's and as people have lamented here it is better to have lived or loved then not at all. Maybe, but at what point does the cost outweigh the return. People equate marriage as a relationship, a union of love and commitment branded to the public by title. As the inevitable horizon of complacency and routine set in one or both parties usually begin to start feeling off, may resentment, ignored, whatever, they are just not happy and as most people have the me first attitude the resentful spouse(s) then to pinpoint blame on their significant other as a way to free themselves from the obvious joint reasonability that a marriage demands to survive. 

I agree that the lack of appreciation can be a deterrent, but this does not give anyone to right to hurt another. My children, as do most peoples, provide little appreciation for anything beyond immediate face value such as getting a toy or treat when they openly speak of wanting such item(s). If told no however most children are filled with disappointment. But what about all the other things children are provided, do they appreciate having health insurance, rent paid on time, Hot water, food in the house, power bill up to par, internet and a working vehicle to start. No, they do not, these things are taken for granted and only noticed when they are absent. But we as parents cannot scold or denounce this as children do not possess the ability of knowing the demands of self sacrifice or parental responsibility nor do we or should we punish them for not showing them love or respect if we as parents receive no recognition for our efforts. 

This should apply with a married couple as well and for those that say they were missing praise or felt neglected need to understand that with adulthood comes self awareness and understanding that they are responsible for communicating their feelings, not for the other spouse to draw them out of them or just KNOW what they are feeling. 

As far as introducing aspects that may irritate or anger the other spouse all depends on where their focus lies. If they are committed they overlook any imperfections or annoyance as a small issue, if even any issue really, that can be ignored. With infidelity the WS range of deal breakers and negative things he/she see about their spouse then become simultaneously acute and obtuse. Not only will they look for anything to use against you for their justification but will also set whatever it is as an extreme focus as well.

And remember, any relationship is under attack on some level, and the header is modern marriage sucks. How many times now have we seen the internet destroy a marriage by a chance encounter or old flame just saying hi.


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

Maybe modern era marriage isn't the problem. The concept is fine, I think, it's just that many, many people shouldn't be married or in a commited relationship at all, if they can't keep the promises and stay loyal.

Maybe the general notion that people should marry is the problem instead.


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## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

cpacan said:


> Maybe modern era marriage isn't the problem. The concept is fine, I think, it's just that many, many people shouldn't be married or in a commited relationship at all, if they can't keep the promises and stay loyal.
> 
> Maybe the general notion that people should marry is the problem instead.


Cpacan, this statement is true, but only when used in hindsight, something we'd all wish we had prior to any marital misfortunes. We build relationships on trust, affection, understanding and sex. In fact sex is what drives couples together and all other attributes that follow are derived from this, whether it is a new relationship or affair the base staring point is the same.

But I have found that for new relationships vs affairs is the pathway or order that these attributes start is. For new couples it starts as intimacy, affectionate time with one another by calling or other communications, then trust by opening up who we are to the other person and in return trusting them when they open up to us. Then comes the understanding or acceptance of what each person is or may ever will be. When that time is reached both parties indicate that they are committed to each other then the ensuing relationship should go forward. This is the standard blueprint for most, if not all relatioships.

An affair works backwards. an OM/OW will see a Husband/Wife, mother father, in a marriage. They know they are supposed to be off limits to pursuance but do so anyway, however insidious or harmless it may be, but they understand and accept they are married. Then the OM/OW opens dialogue which is harmless at first but graduates into more personal and intimate details as a way to establish trust and openness to their target. Then comes the flirtatious touching, calling, texting and hugs or other affectionate endeavors. Then presto the chemicals go off and running and the affair is on.

The modern part that complicates marriage now a days is the digital network, the economy and need for both spouses to work and the general consumerism's and sexual push at nearly every avenue. With a now indoctrinated installation of thinking, people are now only about themselves and when these all work together you now have rationalization and entitlement working against a BS. Even if the couple R the damage is permanent. Words and actions cannot be undone and whoever was the BS will now be scarred forever.


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

IIJokerII said:


> Cpacan, this statement is true, but only when used in hindsight, something we'd all wish we had prior to any marital misfortunes. We build relationships on trust, affection, understanding and sex. In fact sex is what drives couples together and all other attributes that follow are derived from this, whether it is a new relationship or affair the base staring point is the same.
> 
> But I have found that for new relationships vs affairs is the pathway or order that these attributes start is. For new couples it starts as intimacy, affectionate time with one another by calling or other communications, then trust by opening up who we are to the other person and in return trusting them when they open up to us. Then comes the understanding or acceptance of what each person is or may ever will be. When that time is reached both parties indicate that they are committed to each other then the ensuing relationship should go forward. This is the standard blueprint for most, if not all relatioships.
> 
> ...


I agree with you on the first half, the second half; not so sure. You make it sound as if it's a given that cheating in marriage will eventually occur because of temptation, opportunity and chemicals alone - you've seem to have removed free choice as a parameter - and based on your other posts, I don't believe that this was what you really meant


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## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

cpacan said:


> I agree with you on the first half, the second half; not so sure. You make it sound as if it's a given that cheating in marriage will eventually occur because of temptation, opportunity and chemicals alone - you've seem to have removed free choice as a parameter - and based on your other posts, I don't believe that this was what you really meant



Choice is for the most part a free choice but certain criteria and circumstances must be taken into account before a choice is made. A wayward certainly knows that he/she is making the wrong decision but have completely rationalized their thought process due to the influence of their immediate stimuli. 

The only time people act civil is when our immediate needs for survival are met, and if truth be told the ability to procreate and have sex is the prime reason we are here, to sustain and continue life, everything else you see, smart phones, sky scrapers and even artificial creamer is a side effect of our intelligence, so we know which need comes first to humans by this standard alone. 

But we also depend on people to govern their own actions and hold themselves accountable for these actions. When a(pre) wayward begins to have thoughts about cheating it is only after an outside influence or intrusion has begun. This is what sets us apart from the primates, maybe anyway, and he/she will then recalibrate their thoughts, feelings and logic to justify their needs. 

Prior to the internet and digital age marriage's had problems, I agree, but the level of possible intrusions was extremely limited, although no less damaging or aggressive.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

just got it 55 said:


> It's worse It's a bowl of sh!t you are forced to eat.
> 
> 55


I refuse to eat sh!t, which is why I'll never get married again. Not taking the chance. That is crap I don't ever need again.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

BradWesley said:


> The stigma of infidelity and divorce will be all but removed when all the adultery laws are abolished, in the U.S. within the next ten years.


What laws are those?


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## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

vellocet said:


> What laws are those?


Touche sir . Whatever oneare left are the equivalent of fly sh!t.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

The only infidelity laws I know are probably still on the books are Alienation of Affection laws and I don't believe they are recognized. 

Other than that, I'd actually love to see some laws that state, if your stbX spouse has proof of your infidelity, you only get 25% of the marital assets.


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## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

vellocet said:


> I'd actually love to see some laws that state, if your stbX spouse has proof of your infidelity, you only get 25% of the marital assets.


Why so high!!! Hahahaha.


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## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

For fun I just wanted to include a slogan from an internet meme regarding marriage I saw the other day;

Marriage: Betting someone half of your sh1t that they will love you forever.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

vellocet said:


> The only infidelity laws I know are probably still on the books are Alienation of Affection laws and I don't believe they are recognized.
> 
> Other than that, I'd actually love to see some laws that state, if your stbX spouse has proof of your infidelity, you only get 25% of the marital assets.


There really should be laws. However, the proof in the pudding, he/she drove me to it and other issues facing all involved would make a already long process that much longer. 

But I agree...the law, or what there is of it, is awfully skewed.


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## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

Yeswecan said:


> There really should be laws. However, the proof in the pudding, he/she drove me to it and other issues facing all involved would make a already long process that much longer.
> 
> But I agree...the law, or what there is of it, is awfully skewed.


 What I find puzzling is the fact that an individual can claim harassment or stress in a workplace and be compensated with monetary damages and/or a settlement.

Yet when a BS is going thru the motions of infidelity in the environment of a marriage, usually with children and a home involved making it near impossible to leave if not impractical, the Cheater is then rewarded with a severance package and future earnings in most cases. Isn't the home a work place as well. 

Take that modern marriage, you still suck!!!


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## GreyGhost (Dec 20, 2014)

More good news

Even In The Tinder Era, Adultery Site Ashley Madison Keeps Making Money Hand Over Fist - Forbes

I'm with you on this one Joker.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Maybe no shame is worse than some?


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

GreyGhost said:


> More good news
> 
> Even In The Tinder Era, Adultery Site ****** ******* Keeps Making Money Hand Over Fist - Forbes
> 
> I'm with you on this one Joker.



No matter what you do or build there is always someone looking to tear it down. This phenomenon goes back over 2000 years!

Anyway, invest in their stock!


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## lostmyreligion (Oct 18, 2013)

I blame the breakdown of modern marriage on the cheap availability of good quality mattresses.

When I got married, we had the reception at my parents house.During a lull in the party, I was talking to Dad and he said "By the way, your wedding gift's in the spare bedroom downstairs."

Curious, I went down to take a look. All I found was the spare bed with it's old, concave, worn out mattress.

I came back up and said "Thanks, we need a new bed, but I'm gonna have to chuck the mattress."

He said "No, you're gonna want to keep that."

"Why? A new mattress is pretty cheap and that one'll have us smacking into each other all night long.

He said "Exactly. It's pretty hard to stay pi$$ed off at someone you're pressed up against all night."

They were married for 50 years until death did them part.


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

Well, life is a bowl of Sh!t with the handle on the inside...

A Brit friend of mine was teasing my then new wife. He said, why don't you leave him, you can get half his money. She said, "If I stay with him, I get ALL his money". Clever wife. She has not liked the guy since. 

True wisdom...


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## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

Marriage has become like Polo, something pricey that only the rich can indulge in safely.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

IIJokerII said:


> What I find puzzling is the fact that an individual can claim harassment or stress in a workplace and be compensated with monetary damages and/or a settlement.
> 
> Yet when a BS is going thru the motions of infidelity in the environment of a marriage, usually with children and a home involved making it near impossible to leave if not impractical, the Cheater is then rewarded with a severance package and future earnings in most cases. Isn't the home a work place as well.
> 
> Take that modern marriage, you still suck!!!


I'm puzzled by this. You say "rewarded with a severance package and future earnings in most cases". I'd guess that in about 50% of the cases, the cheating spouse ends up leaving and PAYING OUT the severance package and future earnings. So what's your point? 

C


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

So, do prenups work..? How effective are they. Any real world experiences..?


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## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

Q tip said:


> So, do prenups work..? How effective are they. Any real world experiences..?


All I know is what would work for me. If I felt I _needed _a pre-nup then I wouldn't marry that person.


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## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

KingwoodKev said:


> All I know is what would work for me. If I felt I _needed _a pre-nup then I wouldn't marry that person.


You already have a pre-nup, it's called a marriage license.


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

Marriage has always sucked. Most do not know this, but the originators of monogamy was the Romans, and the Greeks. Add the growing religion of Christianity with the Roman culture, you get marriage is between one man and one woman. Except at that time, a man was allowed to sleep with a prostitute , and not be considered adultery. Adultery was originally when a man slept with a married woman. Early hebrews were polygamists, and so were early Christians from the Middle East. David, Abraham, Jacob, and a whole host of others had multiple wives. Do not forget, it has only been a couple centuries where women were not considered property. In the dark to middle ages, adulterous women were stoned to death. Marriage has been this ever evolving institution. Just over the last century, it was okay for a married woman to own her property. If she married a man, he gets her assets. So how far back do people want to take traditional marriage? When it was consider when women were counted as chattle, or woman were second class citizens. Does the modern era marriage need work, sure does. Things like paternity by marriage is terrible. Like most things, progress is slow.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

http://youtu.be/mnmiwo79aTg


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

PBear said:


> You need to keep in mind that people in HAPPY marriages aren't typically on the Internet looking for forums to spout off on how happy they are. They're out having fun with their spouse, enjoying other hobbies, etc. People usual come to forums like this because their marriages are on their last legs, and they're desperately trying to patch them up.
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


They're happy as he took the red pill, became the leader, being a real alpha - pounding her into submission 5 days a week. (and does the dishes).


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## adriana (Dec 21, 2013)

Q tip said:


> So, do prenups work..? How effective are they. Any real world experiences..?



Yes, they do if done by a competent attorney. They are, just like postnups, a subject to state laws and regulations so it isn't that you can include whatever you want in them. 

In my case my prenup didn't make much difference because my ex-husband didn't try to challange anything. He accepted what I offered him and, as a result, got a quite nice bonus for cheating on me.


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## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

It is pathetic that a couple in "Love" would need a document to ensure certain outcomes from a marriage will incur IF the marriage dissolves. Frankly, I think it is a sign that the marriage is destined or expected to fail. Kinda like Job insurance from an Employee. 

Of course certain things like Dignity, emotional damage and various other things cannot be undone by this piece of paper. 

Still calling it: Marriage sucks!!!


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

> *I'm calling it; Modern era Marriage sucks!! *


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## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

PBear said:


> I'm puzzled by this. You say "rewarded with a severance package and future earnings in most cases". I'd guess that in about 50% of the cases, the cheating spouse ends up leaving and PAYING OUT the severance package and future earnings. So what's your point?
> 
> C


STBXWW get rewarded, STBXWH get shafted. Men are awarded spousal support 3% while women are awarded spousal support 47%.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Dogbert said:


> STBXWW get rewarded, STBXWH get shafted. Men are awarded spousal support 3% while women are awarded spousal support 47%.


Lets not forge custody. Unless the wife agrees to 50/50, or to let the man have custody, as long as she isn't proven unfit in some way AND wants custody, she will get it.

That's kind of a double whammy for some of us. Get cheated on AND get screwed out of the joy of having our children live with us. And pay our xWWs for that privilege ta boot. Triple whammy actually.


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## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

vellocet said:


> Lets not forge custody. Unless the wife agrees to 50/50, or to let the man have custody, as long as she isn't proven unfit in some way AND wants custody, she will get it.
> 
> That's kind of a double whammy for some of us. Get cheated on AND get screwed out of the joy of having our children live with us. And pay our xWWs for that privilege ta boot. Triple whammy actually.


 Vel, Please make efforts to make this statement a sticky. And the quad whammy is the OM usually slithering in to be the hero daddy figure since the Paternal Father cannot spend time with his children due to having to work so damn much to survive and pay for said aspects. 

Make's one almost want to have a Vagina instead........Almost!!!


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## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

Yup, still sucks.....Marriage....Fvcking....sucks!!!!

Even when you win, you still lose.


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## xakulax (Feb 9, 2014)

Marriage doesn't necessarily suck it's just more of a failed concept some people get married and have happy and long lasting relationships people like this or more of an anomaly rather than the norm the truth of marriage is that those who wont it the most are the least prepared for the work that requires and as a result flake out...



I said it before and I'll say it again a long-term domestic partnership is more beneficial for both people then getting married and that's just the simple truth


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

vellocet said:


> What laws are those?


Good question. I thought that adultery had been decriminalized in all 50 states a while back.

Adultery still figures as a factor in some states in deciding who gets what in a divorce, but that's about it.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

vellocet said:


> The only infidelity laws I know are probably still on the books are Alienation of Affection laws and I don't believe they are recognized.
> 
> Other than that, I'd actually love to see some laws that state, if your stbX spouse has proof of your infidelity, you only get 25% of the marital assets.


I think that may still happen. Certainly it can control who gets custodial control over children and that affects child support and the like. I think this happens in New York and a number of other states, but is not universal.

What is classed as a marital asset differs, I am told, from state to state. As we know, California and Florida are cases in point.

The lawyers seem to like it this way, they make a lot of money off of it.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Yeswecan said:


> There really should be laws. However, the proof in the pudding, he/she drove me to it and other issues facing all involved would make a already long process that much longer.
> 
> But I agree...the law, or what there is of it, is awfully skewed.


Since men control every state legislature in the country, we can only blame other men for the mess.

I really believe that divorce laws ought to be pretty much the same across the country so that one spouse doesn't gain an advantage by moving to a state whose laws are more favorable to that spouse.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

IIJokerII said:


> What I find puzzling is the fact that an individual can claim harassment or stress in a workplace and be compensated with monetary damages and/or a settlement.
> 
> Yet when a BS is going thru the motions of infidelity in the environment of a marriage, usually with children and a home involved making it near impossible to leave if not impractical, the Cheater is then rewarded with a severance package and future earnings in most cases. Isn't the home a work place as well.
> 
> Take that modern marriage, you still suck!!!


I don't agree. Going at it your way would ensure that practically every couple undergoing a divorce would end up with a very costly trial. And proof beyond a reasonable doubt is both difficult and costly.

And there would be all sorts of countercharges, the calling of witnesses, the use of PI's to gather evidence and so on.

I think we'd quickly decide that that's not the way to go.

How do I know this: because that system is basically what we had prior to the introduction of "no fault", which was introduced to reduce the cost of divorce and ease the entire process. I grew up with the old system and saw first hand how bad it was.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

sidney2718 said:


> I don't agree. Going at it your way would ensure that practically every couple undergoing a divorce would end up with a very costly trial. And proof beyond a reasonable doubt is both difficult and costly.
> 
> And there would be all sorts of countercharges, the calling of witnesses, the use of PI's to gather evidence and so on.
> 
> ...


My crazy stbx has spent more than 40k and I've been forced to spend 20k. I've been stuck in divorce heck for over two years. Please try and convince me no fault makes this cheap and go fast. 
We have no kids, we have no great assets. Our divorce could be done in a coupled hours. No fault means I can't bring up her mental issues or her adultery. 

No fault and cheap fast is fantasy for the most part. Forcing no fault as the only reason is not the answer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## xakulax (Feb 9, 2014)

honcho said:


> My crazy stbx has spent more than 40k and I've been forced to spend 20k. I've been stuck in divorce heck for over two years. Please try and convince me no fault makes this cheap and go fast.
> We have no kids, we have no great assets. Our divorce could be done in a coupled hours. No fault means I can't bring up her mental issues or her adultery.
> 
> *No fault and cheap fast is fantasy for the most part. Forcing no fault as the only reason is not the answer.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NosborCrop (Feb 25, 2015)

I will never marry, my country is 100x worse than the US about it


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## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

sidney2718 said:


> I don't agree. Going at it your way would ensure that practically every couple undergoing a divorce would end up with a very costly trial. And proof beyond a reasonable doubt is both difficult and costly.
> 
> And there would be all sorts of countercharges, the calling of witnesses, the use of PI's to gather evidence and so on.
> 
> ...


 So by implying this you are saying that the no fault Divorce, which stipulates that my choice in bread is reason enough for irretrievable breakdown of a marriage, is the premium choice for a marital dissolution. I, and many others here, would like to think the concept of marriage is not betting someone half my sh1t that they'd love me forever. 

I mean, society of a sports fandom will so often call out a coach or player of a pro sports team who does not fulfill his or her contractual obligations due to them being unhappy, so why should a private citizen who is making a highly impacting decision not get the same support when he or she files for Divorce to free themselves from an abusive situation. 

Faults were there for a reason, a catalyst for dissolution in the courts eyes. By filing for say Adultery, intolerable cruelty and inhabitable living conditions then the marital contract can become voided and the assets, past, present and future could be retained by the non offender. But in this new age 50/50 no one could, or even should, be expected to accept this end result, especially due to someone else's destructive behavior. 

Would an employer give a raise to someone drinking on the job? Stealing, hurting other employee's, embezzlement, stealing from customers or other negative and unproductive attributes? No, they wouldn't, the individual would be fired. Try as one may, this is the same scenario in a failed or failing marriage due to adultery. Punish the chump, reward the cheater. Why do I call it a reward, because the cheater has a new partner to merge a life with so the transitioning is low to non existent. While the other half gets to bask in the emotional upheaval and tangible aspects of the fallout called divorce. 

Now for a little more time, and an extra 20k to prove someone voided their contract so they get nothing, and I with the prospect of maybe spending that much anyway in a no fault, give me the dice and let me make my own luck, not leave it up to uninvolved bearcats who care not for me or others affected after the gavel swings.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

> ...Would an employer give a raise to someone drinking on the job? Stealing, hurting other employee's, embezzlement, stealing from customers or other negative and unproductive attributes? No, they wouldn't, the individual would be fired. Try as one may, this is the same scenario in a failed or failing marriage due to adultery. Punish the chump, reward the cheater. Why do I call it a reward, because the cheater has a new partner to merge a life with so the transitioning is low to non existent. While the other half gets to bask in the emotional upheaval and tangible aspects of the fallout called divorce.
> ...


Sometimes I wonder if it isn't implied that the wife is always the helpless victim and since the husband is a man and has promised to love, honor, and cherish her for the rest of his life, he must by implication, provide for her until she is able to do so through another provider or her own means. 

This seems wrong in some ways, and somewhat like responsibility in others. If she left or wants a divorce, it might be said that you let her go, or you didn't provide for her needs in a manner she covertly contracted to achieve. 

I paid my x2's health insurance premium while she was off having sex and taking care of some other man. She worked, but was self-employed and claimed through a skilled accountant, that she made no income. I believe the law states the husband must pay until the divorce is final, if he was carrying her on his insurance through work before the separation. It's not a "legal" separation here. There are no papers or anything, just laws that prohibit or force certain actions. 

She claimed she made more than twice what I made, after the divorce was final. 

Something has to be done to change things. I think it's too easy to get married.


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## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

Some couples have been opting for "covenant marriages" as a way to get the State out of their lives. Percentage wise they may not significant but I can see other couples following suit with other types of unions where they make their own legally per-approved contracts.

Like a lot of people, I've seriously considered not getting married ever again. I'd rather divide what me and my female companion have between us than to give it to two divorce attorneys that would try to suck both of us dry.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

anybody who marries in todays world is just plain taking a huge risk.

modern society doesn't need marriage.

just my opinion.


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

Studying the history and comparing it to the present, it has come a long way. Genetically, we all ranged from promiscuous to monogamous. It is better to create a life where it more matches to what you are. Marriage is a terrible idea for everyone, because it forces people to conform to some idealistic cookie cutter that works for everyone. Gibbons are better at monogamy than humans are. Who knows, with the advancement of genetic engineering, we one day can probably alter that. Not to mention, people have varying levels of being sociopaths. People have different levels of empathy. Some cheaters are incapable of feeling guilt, and sometimes it is just the brain they were born with.


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## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

The original concept of marriage was not to join a man and a woman who fell in love and wanted to spend the rest of their lives together. It was to join families, in-laws, and resources for economic and political power. It was a way for the older generation to control the younger generation. Monogamy only mattered in establishing legitimacy of heirs and not allow children born from affairs to stake a claim to the families wealth and power. They were very much business contracts

But change came in the 18th century when the younger generations started rebelling against their parents arranged marriage plans for them. Eventually the young permanently removed the yoke of forced marriage by their parents and made marriage what it is today, a free will union based on romantic love between a man and a woman.

The irony of all this is that modern arranged marriages seem to be more stable and more likely to outlive those marriages based on romantic love. In part because those helping to arrange the marriages are not blinded by lust and look more for long term compatibility and parental fitness of the future couple. These marriages may not be a panacea to cure all that is wrong with today's marriages but they should be studied to see if a hybrid marriage could have the benefits of both arranged and romantic marriages.


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## missymrs80 (Aug 5, 2012)

Not everyone just says "ahh, im tired of this, im done" if you are married to an addict alcoholic, someone who is abusive, there is not much u can do if the other isnt willing to change.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Dogbert said:


> The original concept of marriage was not to join a man and a woman who fell in love and wanted to spend the rest of their lives together. It was to join families, in-laws, and resources for economic and political power. It was a way for the older generation to control the younger generation. Monogamy only mattered in establishing legitimacy of heirs and not allow children born from affairs to stake a claim to the families wealth and power. They were very much business contracts
> 
> But change came in the 18th century when the younger generations started rebelling against their parents arranged marriage plans for them. Eventually the young permanently removed the yoke of forced marriage by their parents and made marriage what it is today, a free will union based on romantic love between a man and a woman.
> 
> The irony of all this is that modern arranged marriages seem to be more stable and more likely to outlive those marriages based on romantic love. In part because those helping to arrange the marriages are not blinded by lust and look more for long term compatibility and parental fitness of the future couple. These marriages may not be a panacea to cure all that is wrong with today's marriages but they should be studied to see if a hybrid marriage could have the benefits of both arranged and romantic marriages.


This was pretty much what I thought. I did not marry a woman, the second time, whom I was completely infatuated with. I married her for who she was and made sure I had attraction for her. You just never know what is going to happen.

I think some of the reason why those arranged marriages work, but not all, is really because they are ostracized if the marriage doesn't work. They can't find a job, they can't find a suitably respectable mate. They can't even attend normal family functions without being ignored or treated harshly. 

Is it better? I don't think so. I think there must be something that those who have made it all their lives married to the same person have inside of them that causes them to let go of the things which are not important and deal with the things that are. I think they have stronger convictions. I think they do or do not do things based upon what they believe about themselves. 

I think they have a huge amount of empathy and understanding. I think they have a great ability to forgive and sort through what is important to work on and what is best to let go. I think they are humble and have realized how difficult it is to make it in this life. I think they have had to work for everything they have without the help of others, and been grateful for each little accomplishment. 

I don't know for certain. This is my best guess from observing those who I know have somehow worked through all that life has given them to handle.


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## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

If "living dead" marriages and divorce could teach us is that good partner selection and marital suitability are sorely needed.


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

IIJokerII said:


> So by implying this you are saying that the no fault Divorce, which stipulates that my choice in bread is reason enough for irretrievable breakdown of a marriage, is the premium choice for a marital dissolution. I, and many others here, would like to think the concept of marriage is not betting someone half my sh1t that they'd love me forever.
> 
> I mean, society of a sports fandom will so often call out a coach or player of a pro sports team who does not fulfill his or her contractual obligations due to them being unhappy, so why should a private citizen who is making a highly impacting decision not get the same support when he or she files for Divorce to free themselves from an abusive situation.
> 
> ...


!!! now now now --- we're getting somewhere..

just what IS your fav bread. be honest. and why. any childhood preferences denied? were you kneaded by any abusers? did you feel kneaded, or neglected and therefore not raised properly?

I think you've baked on a good idea. should we leaven on it a bit..

where's almostrecovered. he may have a pan or two on this... 

...


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## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

Thanks again to tom67 for this very interesting youtube video titled *Men not marrying? How deep does "the problem" go?* by Karen Straughan.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Dogbert said:


> Thanks again to tom67 for this very interesting youtube video titled *Men not marrying? How deep does "the problem" go?* by Karen Straughan.


Another one which males should watch is this...
Watch Divorce Corp Online Free Putlocker - PutLocker.Sh

http://www.alluc.com/stream/divorce+corp+2014

I had to stop watching when a man from PA had ZERO custody of his kids because he left his blog up.

Very disturbing but this is for the young ones.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Again you were warned that's how much this shyt pissed me off.


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## CLIFFW (Jul 25, 2012)

in a larger sense, except to raise children, I have no idea why any man agrees to get married. There are just too many pitfalls, especially financial ones, that don't seem to make a lot of sense when in reality you can get everything you need in a woman without the legal and financial entanglements of marriage. Marriage for the modern man? It's for suckers.


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## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

Q tip said:


> !!! now now now --- we're getting somewhere..
> 
> just what IS your fav bread. be honest. and why. any childhood preferences denied? were you kneaded by any abusers? did you feel kneaded, or neglected and therefore not raised properly?
> 
> ...


 Q, wtf are you talking about? hahah, I just ain't getting it.


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## Ripper (Apr 1, 2014)

Another marriage article. Looks like more and more men are giving it a pass. 

The article takes males to task;
_"and many live in a state of “perpetual adolescence” with ominous consequences for the nation’s future,"_

but also takes a few shots at feminism;
_“Feminism was supposed to bring women happiness,” Crouse said. “But the research shows that women today are much more unhappy then they have been in the past."_

Warning: the comment section is brutal.

Bachelor Nation: 70% of Men Aged 20-34 Are Not Married | CNS News


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Men need to take control of their ability to procreate. They must take responsibility for their ability to have children. There must be fewer mistakes. Men must make contracts with the potential mothers of their children. It is their right and their responsibility. It is neither responsible nor acceptable to spread seed throughout the population with little concern for who gets pregnant or what method of birth control is best. It is highly important for men who are single. 

What a single man does with his time is none of anyone's business, as long as he is not breaking any laws. No one has the right to tell them what they can and can't do. Men need help to understand what they can and cannot do, according to the law, and within the boundaries of respect for others. 

It's not wrong to be single. It's wrong to force anyone to get married. It's wrong to force men to feel like children for something they do that does not harm anyone. They wouldn't be able to do many of those things if they were married. They would always have to consider someone else first. Nothing wrong with living a good life. 

Didn't read that article. I don't care what "they" say.


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## The Cro-Magnon (Sep 30, 2012)

BBC News - Dale Vince ex-wife wins divorce cash battle

woman takes ex husband to court because she wants some money TWENTY FCUKING YEARS after they divorce, AND SHE GETS IT!!!!!!!!

Getting married is insane for any young man these days, there is NO WAY IN HELL I would want my little boy getting married to one of these disgusting, greedy, unfaithful, self centred narcissistic animals

TWENTY YEARS LATER!!!


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

The Cro-Magnon said:


> BBC News - Dale Vince ex-wife wins divorce cash battle
> 
> woman takes ex husband to court because she wants some money TWENTY FCUKING YEARS after they divorce, AND SHE GETS IT!!!!!!!!
> 
> ...


That's just disgusting.

But the light at the end of the tunnel for Vince is that the court said if there is a settlement, it won't be anywhere near the 1.9m she is wanting. He is worth now 107M

The article said it would probably be enough just to buy a home and not have a mortgage. Still disgusting, though.

What is it about some x-wives that feel entitled to money from x-husbands years after the divorce? Reminds me of my X. But I get to tell her to go F herself.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

The Cro-Magnon said:


> BBC News - Dale Vince ex-wife wins divorce cash battle
> 
> woman takes ex husband to court because she wants some money TWENTY FCUKING YEARS after they divorce, AND SHE GETS IT!!!!!!!!
> 
> ...


Another reason for men not to marry :wtf:


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## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

vellocet said:


> That's just disgusting.
> 
> But the light at the end of the tunnel for Vince is that the court said if there is a settlement, it won't be anywhere near the 1.9m she is wanting. He is worth now 107M
> 
> ...


 I guess this means that I can too ask for that awesome dinner she used to make me just the way I liked it 20 years later........Oh wait, that was either take out or I made dinner...Nevermind.


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

IIJokerII said:


> Q, wtf are you talking about? hahah, I just ain't getting it.


lemme quote what I was responding to:

"So by implying this you are saying that the no fault Divorce, which stipulates that my choice in bread is reason enough for irretrievable breakdown of a marriage, is the premium choice for a marital dissolution."


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

The Cro-Magnon said:


> BBC News - Dale Vince ex-wife wins divorce cash battle
> 
> woman takes ex husband to court because she wants some money TWENTY FCUKING YEARS after they divorce, AND SHE GETS IT!!!!!!!!
> 
> ...


his lawyer neglected to put closure agreements in the docs. it should have been there in writing. he should go after his lawyer for the amount he's out.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

The divorce decree is the closure agreement.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Careful men. Your wife may not like you enjoying sex. Sometimes, it's just that simple. You have no right to have feelings. They should all be about pleasing her alone. That is your purpose in this life. Do not attempt to please yourself, unless there is something in it for her first. That is your primary directive in marriage. You are no longer a man with his own thoughts, needs, desires, ambitions, etc. Just forget about your pleasure. You're just being selfish anyway or any other negative you can glean from or infer about this post. Wait for it. It's coming.


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## YupItsMe (Sep 29, 2011)

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...-proposed-alternative-modernize-marriage.html


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

YupItsMe said:


> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...-proposed-alternative-modernize-marriage.html


The alternative to getting married is, drum roll.............Don't.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> The alternative to getting married is, drum roll.............Don't.


You got that f****n' right! And a damn good alternative it is.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

vellocet said:


> The divorce decree is the closure agreement.


If only this were true....almost everyone I know ends up getting dragged back into court at some point.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

vellocet said:


> You got that f****n' right! And a damn good alternative it is.


Except some states even set it up that if you live with someone long enough a break-up is treated like divorce. They get you one way or another.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Yeah. It's either marriage or truly single and only dating a few years while keeping everything separate. You can't live together even a few years or you will have to split things, even with separate accounts. Although, most will try. Many..

Those robots are looking better and better, if you can afford one. Androids? They are pretty creepy, though. I think that's funny, but I may not some day.


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## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

vellocet said:


> You got that f****n' right! And a damn good alternative it is.


 Well, maybe I will submit to Webster's for the next Dictionary is *lasterbation*, a permanent discipline of self stimulation, can be used as a preventative measure from falling onto marital hell.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

honcho said:


> Except some states even set it up that if you live with someone long enough a break-up is treated like divorce. They get you one way or another.


That's when there is some sort of proof that the couple IS a couple. Otherwise they can't do that with just a male/female roommate only situation.(or maybe they can and its up to the roommates to prove they are not a couple...I don't know)

Which makes me wonder, now that gay marriage is becoming law, shouldn't they treat ALL roommates as common law spouses? Gay or not?


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

IIJokerII said:


> Well, maybe I will submit to Webster's for the next Dictionary is *lasterbation*, a permanent discipline of self stimulation, can be used as a preventative measure from falling onto marital hell.


I like it. I don't like it. I'm confused. More and more, I think it's either be a PUA or husband. I'm not for either. I think the state of the laws today force one or the other. Seems like that's against the Constitution, stifling the pursuit of happiness. I guess we need contracts and more lawyers, or red box legal documents.

Edit: Why couldn't they be scanned for dates and signatures, then notarized and automatically saved and uploaded to a government inbox for their specific categories. When the relationship is done, one person files a second document and a notice is sent to the surprised partner. Later, a list of personal property, which has been updated with scanned receipts containing dates and signatures, could be downloaded to both participants. A constable of choice on record, could be notified and sent to be certain things on the list were received. Viola'! It would be over and with very little cost, other than for the constable and rented box truck. Why drag it out in courts? It's the emotional connection the masters and judges have that usually cause the most damage. Remove them from the basic plan. A rental fee could be charged for the service. An attorney could be kept on file for any issues, and notified if that choice is selected, after meeting certain criteria. These criteria would keep frivolous suits out of the court system, while curtailing the ability of the courts to interpret too many abstract laws and ruin lives. 

I know. It's crazy. I just had a fantasy, I guess.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

vellocet said:


> You got that f****n' right! And a damn good alternative it is.


Like Leykis says why enter into a contract where you don't know the terms of that contract.:banghead::redcard:
Oh but wait you are supposed to "man up"


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

vellocet said:


> That's when there is some sort of proof that the couple IS a couple. Otherwise they can't do that with just a male/female roommate only situation.(or maybe they can and its up to the roommates to prove they are not a couple...I don't know)
> 
> Which makes me wonder, now that gay marriage is becoming law, shouldn't they treat ALL roommates as common law spouses? Gay or not?


The couple/roommate debate often comes down to he said she said and we all know how that goes. The system is rigged and they get you one way or another it seems. 

The legal world has built a system to guarantee employment.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

honcho said:


> The couple/roommate debate often comes down to he said she said and we all know how that goes. The system is rigged and they get you one way or another it seems.
> 
> The legal world has built a system to guarantee employment.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I had to make copies of a divorce case for an attorney (think he's doing a friend a favor) we don't deal with family law anyway it was filed in 2004 and it's still active
Needless to say I was thinking of your case honcho:banghead::banghead:


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## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

If I had it to do again, no way in hell I would get married. I have told my wife that if we got divorced, not a chance in hell I would EVER marry anybody else ever again.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

vellocet said:


> That's when there is some sort of proof that the couple IS a couple. Otherwise they can't do that with just a male/female roommate only situation.(or maybe they can and its up to the roommates to prove they are not a couple...I don't know)
> 
> Which makes me wonder, now that gay marriage is becoming law, shouldn't they treat ALL roommates as common law spouses? Gay or not?


Some jurisdictions will treat people living together as being in a common law marriage if there is any indication of joint financial activity, or any representation of being a couple.

You can protect yourselves by creating a notarized "non-marital cohabitation agreement" that shows you had no intent to allow that to happen (or even be considered a "household"), regardless of your actual intentions or activities.

We created one when we moved in together, and it was a very good thing we did. She became disabled, and her social security disability benefits would have been far lower if they'd been able to factor my income into the equation of household income (which they would have done even though my divorce wasn't final) even though I wasn't supporting her at all. Just another way the government tries to take what isn't theirs and deny you what's legally yours.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

vellocet said:


> That's when there is some sort of proof that the couple IS a couple. Otherwise they can't do that with just a male/female roommate only situation.(or maybe they can and its up to the roommates to prove they are not a couple...I don't know)
> 
> Which makes me wonder, now that gay marriage is becoming law, shouldn't they treat ALL roommates as common law spouses? Gay or not?


They do and don't. They want to satisfy religious groups, or just don't want to outlaw church weddings. Some things must be proven. When dealing with relationships/marriages, it seems it's a guilty until proven innocent system. It makes it quicker, easier, less costly, and more satisfactory for all sorts of secular and religious groups who stifle the process at ever turn, trying to gain advantage or change laws. Some good, some bad, that has no bearing on the comment.

They also have to walk that line of freedom. The best way to do that is with money and property. Notice those complaints made for marriage by some. They want rights to health care and decisions for their partner. Marriage is inexpensive at it's simplest, and makes those changes for them automatically. 

My thoughts revolve around making those changes choices through legal documents much easier and less expensive. That has nothing to do with my feelings about who should/should not get married. That's irrelevant and I am thinking of eliminating the problems, not changing who can get married.


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## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

altawa said:


> If I had it to do again, no way in hell I would get married. I have told my wife that if we got divorced, not a chance in hell I would EVER marry anybody else ever again.


 Altawa, your a genius. 

I just had an epiphany of epic proportions. Take a moment and ask your spouse if they would ever get married again, and if they answer like altawa did/does there is your indication of your marital health. Because who will not reengage in a joyous activity. If they say they will never get married again, you now have a silent admission of dissatisfaction under the guise of a passing question.


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## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

IIJokerII said:


> Altawa, your a genius.
> 
> I just had an epiphany of epic proportions. Take a moment and ask your spouse if they would ever get married again, and if they answer like altawa did/does there is your indication of your marital health. Because who will not reengage in a joyous activity. If they say they will never get married again, you now have a silent admission of dissatisfaction under the guise of a passing question.


It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with that. It has to do with the alimony/support/losing half your sh!t lottery that marriage/divorce has become. With cheating being as rampant as it is, it just isn't worth the risk. If I knew then what I know now, I wouldn't risk it, and if I divorced now, I wouldnt risk it again.


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## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

2ntnuf said:


> Careful men. Your wife may not like you enjoying sex. Sometimes, it's just that simple. You have no right to have feelings. They should all be about pleasing her alone. That is your purpose in this life. Do not attempt to please yourself, unless there is something in it for her first. That is your primary directive in marriage. You are no longer a man with his own thoughts, needs, desires, ambitions, etc. Just forget about your pleasure. You're just being selfish anyway or any other negative you can glean from or infer about this post. Wait for it. It's coming.


Isn't it interesting how this could have described the role of women not too long ago?

This is a good place to start for arguing for men's value to be dependent on who they are as human beings and not for what they bring to the traditional role as man.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

2ntnuf said:


> Careful men. Your wife may not like you enjoying sex. Sometimes, it's just that simple. You have no right to have feelings. They should all be about pleasing her alone. That is your purpose in this life. Do not attempt to please yourself, unless there is something in it for her first. That is your primary directive in marriage. You are no longer a man with his own thoughts, needs, desires, ambitions, etc. Just forget about your pleasure. You're just being selfish anyway or any other negative you can glean from or infer about this post. Wait for it. It's coming.


I am hoping that the above is just hyperbole and letting off some steam. :scratchhead:


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## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> I am hoping that the above is just hyperbole and letting off some steam. :scratchhead:


I think this is a combination of both as well as perceivable truth. Ergo, if you worked at the DMV and most or all your customers sucked, you would admit you had a sh1tty job. 

Given what I see nowadays Elle, it seems that this plan of action has now become expected. It is insidious, but present no less. And yes, I know this does not suggest all women are like this.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> I am hoping that the above is just hyperbole and letting off some steam. :scratchhead:


Here it comes fellas. Did I call it?


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## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

:iagree:


2ntnuf said:


> Here it comes fellas. Did I call it?


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

2ntnuf said:


> Here it comes fellas. Did I call it?


:banghead: 

Ah, your goal is to turn this into a gender argument?????? I get it.



2ntnuf said:


> Careful men. Your wife may not like you enjoying sex. Sometimes, it's just that simple. You have no right to have feelings. They should all be about pleasing her alone. That is your purpose in this life. Do not attempt to please yourself, unless there is something in it for her first. That is your primary directive in marriage. You are no longer a man with his own thoughts, needs, desires, ambitions, etc. Just forget about your pleasure. You're just being selfish anyway or any other negative you can glean from or infer about this post. Wait for it. It's coming.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Way off topic Ele. It's also baiting. I don't go for that. My post was in alignment with the topic of the thread, which I understand to be that modern marriage sucks and why each of us thinks that. My opinion is just that. 

You don't have to like it or read it. If you want to comment, make it about why you think modern marriage sucks. Don't try to make it about why you think my ideas suck. I don't care what you think about me. 

Ask someone important in your life. I'm not and I don't want to be. 

That's another reason why I think modern marriage sucks. I cannot have my own opinion unless it agrees with the majority, or I'll be attacked. I'm an individual and make my own decisions. That's not so good for modern marriage. 

I will not debate you. You are free to believe as you wish. I don't care.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

2ntnuf said:


> Way off topic Ele. It's also baiting. I don't go for that. My post was in alignment with the topic of the thread, which I understand to be that modern marriage sucks and why each of us thinks that. My opinion is just that.
> 
> You don't have to like it or read it. If you want to comment, make it about why you think modern marriage sucks. Don't try to make it about why you think my ideas suck. I don't care what you think about me.
> 
> ...


If a woman posted the exact same thing you did about men, I would have asked her the exact same thing. 

I truly did not think that you had that kind of vitriol in you about women and was surprised. It seemed to be sarcasm, but the sarcasm was not evident. I guess I was wrong about what you think.

I wanted to know if you really feel that way. Instead of responding respectfully, you bullied and tired to make a spectacle of me so that others on the thread would laugh at me. Not appreciated at all.

If that is your opinion of women in marriage than so be it. 

I too have my opinions to which I am also entitled ... .which get challenged at every turn on TAM. That is sort of the culture here. My bad for thinking that TAM was all about sharing, debating, discussing as we Talk About Marriage.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Modern marriage sucks. When you look at it, it really does. There are many reasons why it does. Some of them are here in this thread. My wish is that it would not suck. I can't change that. 

-Some mates like to berate.
-Some mates like to control.
-Some mates want you to change.
-Some mates don't allow you to have your own opinion.
-Some mates will treat you passive aggressively.

You will not discover some of these things until you have been together for a time. Be careful. Don't let those who hate you change who you are. They only want to make a name for themselves. They take their personal problems out on innocent bystanders. It's a warning sign of what you will receive when the time comes....and it will.


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## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

If anybody is interested, read this article titled *Record Share of Americans Have Never Married* by the Pew Research Center Social And Demographic Trends.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

> Never-Married Adults Face Changing Economic Realities
> 
> For Young, Never-Married Women, the Pool of Employed Young Men Has ShrunkAs the share of never-married adults has climbed, the economic circumstances faced by both men and women have changed considerably. Labor force participation among men—particularly young men—has fallen significantly over the past several decades. In 1960, 93% of men ages 25 to 34 were in the labor force; by 2012 that share had fallen to 82%. And among young men who are employed, wages have fallen over the past few decades. For men ages 25 to 34, median hourly wages have declined 20% since 1980 (after adjusting for inflation). Over the same period, the wage gap between men and women has narrowed. In 2012, among workers ages 25 to 34, women’s hourly earnings were 93% those of men. In 1980, the ratio was less than 70%.6
> 
> The new Pew Research survey findings suggest that never-married women place a high premium on finding a spouse with a steady job. However, the changes in the labor market have contributed to a shrinking pool of available employed young men.


This is sad. While I think men and women's wages really should be the same for the same job, it seems that instead of only increasing women's pay, men's pay has simultaneously decreased. That makes it tough for everyone to raise a family, should one spouse decide to stay home. I guess men could stay home, but there have been threads here which seem to indicate men are not as attractive when they aren't at least making similar income. That isn't in all instances or with every person, of course.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> Modern marriage sucks. When you look at it, it really does. There are many reasons why it does. Some of them are here in this thread. My wish is that it would not suck. I can't change that.
> 
> -Some mates like to berate.
> -Some mates like to control.
> ...



I wonder if this is more about the person one marries rather than marriage in general. 

If one wants to look at marriage as an institution and how it sucks, that is one thing, but what I see being described is not so much about marriage as it is about another person. This person could be your spouse or co-habitat with you in either case it is the person (of either gender) and not necessarily the institution that is the problem. The legal contract aspect of it may suck, at least when it ends. 

I would say marriage may not be for everyone and society should never dictate norms around whether someone is married or not. A person who is single and content has as much value in modern society as someone who is married and content. But, to suggest as a generalized blanket statement modern marriage sucks (not even sure I understand the modern adjective here) would then suggest judgement on those of us married in what we may view as a successful marriage. 

I have been married 20 years and do not recognize any of those attributes in my wife. It is not that it has been smooth sailing the whole time, but then again life is never smooth sailing (single or married). I have tried to teach my sons three basic things in life:

Be someone that another person will be content in sharing their life with you.
Be the co-worker others can work with and or are willing to work for you.
Be the neighbor that people like living next to and sad if you move away. 

We are a gregarious species. 

Simply my opinion.


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## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

Ikaika said:


> I wonder if this is more about the person one marries rather than marriage in general.
> 
> If one wants to look at marriage as an institution and how it sucks, that is one thing, but what I see being described is not so much about marriage as it is about another person. This person could be your spouse or co-habitat with you in either case it is the person (of either gender) and not necessarily the institution that is the problem. The legal contract aspect of it may suck, at least when it ends.
> 
> ...


The problem is that if you have to be married to somebody to realize some of that, then you end up realizing that, you are either stuck with them, or have to divorce them. Then, they win the marriage lottery and get half your stuff plus alimony/support/retirement. I have busted my ass in the military. Why do I have to give up half my retirement if we divorce....was she the one launching aircraft off the carrier for months at a time? 

That is the problem. You can never really be free in most cases. If you could just divorce and move on, it might be one thing. But you are tied to them for money (at the minimum). Don't even get me started about the sh!tty child custody laws out there.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

altawa said:


> The problem is that if you have to be married to somebody to realize some of that, then you end up realizing that, you are either stuck with them, or have to divorce them. Then, they win the marriage lottery and get half your stuff plus alimony/support/retirement. I have busted my ass in the military. Why do I have to give up half my retirement if we divorce....was she the one launching aircraft off the carrier for months at a time?
> 
> 
> 
> That is the problem. You can never really be free in most cases. If you could just divorce and move on, it might be one thing. But you are tied to them for money (at the minimum). Don't even get me started about the sh!tty child custody laws out there.



I'm not saying this part does not suck... That is divorce. But, "modern" day marriage does not suck as a general rule, divorce does but not necessarily all marriages as a rule.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

Ikaika said:


> three basic things in life:
> 
> Be someone that another person will be content in sharing their life with you.
> Be the co-worker others can work with and or are willing to work for you.
> ...


Its a shame in our society today of instant gratification and selfish behavior that your three basics are becoming rarer and rarer in people.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

honcho said:


> Its a shame in our society today of instant gratification and selfish behavior that your three basics are becoming rarer and rarer in people.



Teaching our children well and it will not be so rare. I'm less interested in my sons being the smartest kids in class or the star athletes on the team. I'm more interested in that they can work with others in the class and as I tell my jock son, "make a difference for the team, not just to stand out for yourself". So if the coach ask you to block on a given play, you do that as good as you catch the ball. No one in the stand may see your great block, but it will make a difference for the team.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

altawa said:


> The problem is that if you have to be married to somebody to realize some of that, then you end up realizing that, you are either stuck with them, or have to divorce them. Then, they win the marriage lottery and get half your stuff plus alimony/support/retirement. I have busted my ass in the military. Why do I have to give up half my retirement if we divorce....was she the one launching aircraft off the carrier for months at a time?
> 
> That is the problem. You can never really be free in most cases. If you could just divorce and move on, it might be one thing. But you are tied to them for money (at the minimum). Don't even get me started about the sh!tty child custody laws out there.


:iagree: The risks outweigh the gains in my opinion.


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## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

2ntnuf said:


> This is sad. While I think men and women's wages really should be the same for the same job, it seems that instead of only increasing women's pay, men's pay has simultaneously decreased. That makes it tough for everyone to raise a family, should one spouse decide to stay home. I guess men could stay home, but there have been threads here which seem to indicate men are not as attractive when they aren't at least making similar income. That isn't in all instances or with every person, of course.


Keep in mind that the U.S. is no longer a world unto itself. The spectacular economic position that the U.S. found itself in right after WWII, was a special and one of a kind. Most nations were devastated, and the U.S. found itself the number one supplier of the world. We now have competition from other skilled workers, including university graduates, who get paid much less than most U.S. employees.

I remember an article that stated that due to new workers from the former Soviet Union and their ally communist nations, the jobs that are created world wide are simply not enough to keep everybody gainfully employed. This is not good because this creates a perfect breeding ground where discontent is expressed through riots, and armed conflicts that eventually lead to civil wars.

China is surpassing us economically, and some argue that it already has - Oh the irony of a communist nation being our creditor. And in the not so distant future we may eventually become illegal alien ourselves, well maybe our grandchildren.

Other than that everything is peachy.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Ikaika said:


> I wonder if this is more about the person one marries rather than marriage in general.
> 
> If one wants to look at marriage as an institution and how it sucks, that is one thing, but what I see being described is not so much about marriage as it is about another person. This person could be your spouse or co-habitat with you in either case it is the person (of either gender) and not necessarily the institution that is the problem. The legal contract aspect of it may suck, at least when it ends.
> 
> ...


That's what this thread is about. With steady progress, marriage is aligning with less and less men and women. What you don't see is very many posts by women who think the same. Why do you think that is? Are they more gregarious? That seems like it's an important reason why you think your marriage is working. So, are you attempting to say that you just laugh off beliefs you hold and boundaries that are important to you when they come up in your marriage? You concede any position you hold for the sake of your marriage? 

I really don't think so.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Dogbert said:


> Keep in mind that the U.S. is no longer a world unto itself. The spectacular economic position that the U.S. found itself in right after WWII, was a special and one of a kind. Most nations were devastated, and the U.S. found itself the number one supplier of the world. We now have competition from other skilled workers, including university graduates, who get paid much less than most U.S. employees.
> 
> I remember an article that stated that due to new workers from the former Soviet Union and their ally communist nations, the jobs that are created world wide are simply not enough to keep everybody gainfully employed. This is not good because this creates a perfect breeding ground where discontent is expressed through riots, and armed conflicts that eventually lead to civil wars.
> 
> ...


:lol:

But seriously, how does this answer what I posted?


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Ikaika said:


> Teaching our children well and it will not be so rare. I'm less interested in my sons being the smartest kids in class or the star athletes on the team. I'm more interested in that they can work with others in the class and as I tell my jock son, "make a difference for the team, not just to stand out for yourself". So if the coach ask you to block on a given play, you do that as good as you catch the ball. No one in the stand may see your great block, but it will make a difference for the team.


How does this relate to the consequences of a failed marriage? The rules of football don't punish him by taking away your earnings if they lose. Maybe they should? That way, if it's your son's fault, you will be responsible. Then, you can possibly relate football to marriage.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> That's what this thread is about. With steady progress, marriage is aligning with less and less men and women. What you don't see is very many posts by women who think the same. Why do you think that is? Are they more gregarious? That seems like it's an important reason why you think your marriage is working. So, are you attempting to say that you just laugh off beliefs you hold and boundaries that are important to you when they come up in your marriage? You concede any position you hold for the sake of your marriage?
> 
> 
> 
> I really don't think so.



:scratchhead:


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Ikaika said:


> :scratchhead:


:iagree:


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> How does this relate to the consequences of a failed marriage? The rules of football don't punish him by taking away your earnings if they lose. Maybe they should? That way, if it's your son's fault, you will be responsible. Then, you can possibly relate football to marriage.



Maybe it has nothing to do with marriage, failed or successful ones. Or maybe it is simply my opinion that modern life is the problem, lack of sacrifice for the team. Sure if only one partner is making all the sacrifices for the team (marriage) this will suck. But, as I stated this may be less to do with marriage and more to do with the individual.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Ikaika said:


> Maybe it has nothing to do with marriage, failed or successful ones. Or maybe it is simply my opinion that modern life is the problem, lack of sacrifice for the team. Sure if only one partner is making all the sacrifices for the team (marriage) this will suck. But, as I stated this may be less to do with marriage and more to do with the individual.


It takes one to ruin a marriage and two to make it work? And that's why modern marriage sucks? Or are you saying modern marriage doesn't suck, it's the individual?


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> It takes one to ruin a marriage and two to make it work? And that's why modern marriage sucks? Or are you saying modern marriage doesn't suck, it's the individual?



Individuals (pl.). But I can only be responsible for my own actions same for my wife, she is responsible for her own actions.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Ikaika said:


> Individuals (pl.). But I can only be responsible for my own actions same for my wife, she is responsible for her own actions.


So, you believe that it takes two to make a marriage successful and one to make it unsuccessful, but you say individuals. 

You believe that modern era marriage sucks because of individuals. 

Are you saying you believe it should take two people to be able to file for divorce and if one says no, they can't get a divorce? I don't, but the thought aligns with your suggestion that individuals, plural, are the cause of modern era marriage sucking. Or, are you saying those who created laws that seem unfair to some are the issue? I think that's really what this thread is about.


How would you make modern era marriage better? Would you have to change laws? Which ones?


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> So, you believe that it takes two to make a marriage successful and one to make it unsuccessful, but you say individuals.
> 
> You believe that modern era marriage sucks because of individuals.
> 
> ...


I believe you are reading way too much into my post, so I will stop. You have your opinion and I have mine.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Ikaika said:


> I believe you are reading way too much into my post, so I will stop. You have your opinion and I have mine.


I don't really understand how what you are posting aligns with the topic. I don't see anything wrong with your opinions. I think your are right. We are at an impasse if we cannot stay on topic. May I suggest you start a thread with your opinions about individuals and so forth and how they relate to football players?


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> I don't really understand how what you are posting aligns with the topic. May I suggest you start a thread with your opinions about individuals....



http://talkaboutmarriage.com/showthread.php?p=2044057


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Great listen
The Voice of Europe – Episode 84 – Expanding the Overton window


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Honcho
Talk to someone in the local press and get your story out there has to be some young reporter who is motivated.

Exposing this may force someone to act.

I suppose it's like groundhog day.


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## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

2ntnuf said:


> Sometimes I wonder if it isn't implied that the wife is always the helpless victim and since the husband is a man and has promised to love, honor, and cherish her for the rest of his life, he must by implication, provide for her until she is able to do so through another provider or her own means.
> 
> This seems wrong in some ways, and somewhat like responsibility in others. If she left or wants a divorce, it might be said that you let her go, or you didn't provide for her needs in a manner she covertly contracted to achieve.
> 
> ...


Dont know how I missed this the first time. In the age of equality, it appears there is only equality where they want it. Case in point....women in the military. They want to do all the same jobs, get paid the same money, have the same chances at promotion, but don't have to meet the same physical requirements, and can be (and are) taken off of deployment/sea duty by getting pregnant (many on purpose). So, its equal, until the time that the scale is pulled out, then come the exceptions. Much like the courts.....women are equal, until it is time to do the divorce calculations, then the woman must be taken care of.

I particularly like the SAHM's that CHOOSE to stay at home, then complain that they have no job and must be supported indefinitely. I know of a guy that begged his now ex to get a job to help out...she refused. Wanted to stay at home and go to school. Well, as soon as she got done with school, guess what she did. She left him (via an affair). Oh, and since they had been married ten years, she got half his military retirement, alimony, and the house they had bought. And, he had paid for her school.

Yep. Equality.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

tom67 said:


> Honcho
> Talk to someone in the local press and get your story out there has to be some young reporter who is motivated.
> 
> Exposing this may force someone to act.
> ...


I used to joke whatever I lose money wise in divorce I'll make up selling the story to somebody in Hollywood. Problem is its gone on so long now it will be like a lord of rings trilogy haha.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Marriage is an outmoded social construct designed to financially enslave men. The worst form of misandry.


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## toolforgrowth (Apr 24, 2012)

altawa said:


> Dont know how I missed this the first time. In the age of equality, it appears there is only equality where they want it. Case in point....women in the military. They want to do all the same jobs, get paid the same money, have the same chances at promotion, but don't have to meet the same physical requirements, and can be (and are) taken off of deployment/sea duty by getting pregnant (many on purpose). So, its equal, until the time that the scale is pulled out, then come the exceptions. Much like the courts.....women are equal, until it is time to do the divorce calculations, then the woman must be taken care of.
> 
> I particularly like the SAHM's that CHOOSE to stay at home, then complain that they have no job and must be supported indefinitely. I know of a guy that begged his now ex to get a job to help out...she refused. Wanted to stay at home and go to school. Well, as soon as she got done with school, guess what she did. She left him (via an affair). Oh, and since they had been married ten years, she got half his military retirement, alimony, and the house they had bought. And, he had paid for her school.
> 
> Yep. Equality.


Exactly.

I'm never getting married again. Thankfully I found a woman who doesn't want to get married either. We just want to live together. :smthumbup:

Men need to take control of their reproductive rights. Freeze some swimmers and go get a vasectomy. Through my insurance, my V costed me $5.

Best. $5. I. Ever. Spent.

That way, the only children you'll be having are children you consent to have.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

The billboard that shocked a nation


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

tom67 said:


> The billboard that shocked a nation


This is part of the equality people never want to talk about.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

honcho said:


> This is part of the equality people never want to talk about.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 This is not true, people love talking about it, and it is usually followed by quotes of "You go girl" or " He must've deserved it" with men and woman alike too cowardly to step in and intervene.


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## NosborCrop (Feb 25, 2015)

bandit.45 said:


> Marriage is an outmoded social construct designed to financially enslave men. The worst form of misandry.


hahaha :iagree:


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## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

IIJokerII said:


> This is not true, people love talking about it, and it is usually followed by quotes of "You go girl" or " He must've deserved it" with men and woman alike too cowardly to step in and intervene.


I am a little bit more hopeful in that I think the conversation on such horrendous behavior and acceptance of it is just starting. The unfortunate fact is that it started much later for men than it does for women. But more and more people are starting to wake up and question this belief. Not as much as there should be (which should be 100%) but it is being questioned more and more. The shutdown of centers to help male abuse victims has been questioned more and more as time goes on.

But the idea that it is a human right to not accept abusive behavior is regardless of which gender/race will always be controversial unfortunately. 

But we will push it through no matter what. It is saddening that it has taken so long.

I have stepped in on boyfriends hitting their girlfriends and girlfriends hitting their boyfriends.

My fiance told me a story about a girl who liked to go around kicking men in the balls. She did it to him one day and laughed.

He told me the story as it if was nothing but I could tell there was something he was holding back.

I looked at him and said "That was sexual abuse. She had no right to hurt you there. Would you find it funny if a man slapped me in my chest and laughed?" 

I saw that hurt that he had been holding back under excuses (very much the same excuses that you listed Joker) come back to the surface and he said no. He looked relieved as he no longer had to accept that that had been ok.

I don't want anyone to grow up thinking being hurt is ok just for how they were born.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

I totally get where you're coming from. Marriage does suck, especially for men. If you're male and you want out, be prepared to pay. Back when I was growing up you never seen divorce as the norm as it is now. People want what they want and they want it NOW. This mentality has ruined alot of things and caused marriage to be the consumable item that you refer to. There's no love and no honor these days, those concepts don't matter. It seems to be all about who can play who. I'f love to go back to the 50's. Everyone had a job for as long as they wanted it, marriages gernerally went the distance and there was no ****ing internet and cell phones. Life was simple, not complicated, easy. You'll never see that again.


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## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

jb02157 said:


> I totally get where you're coming from. Marriage does suck, especially for men. If you're male and you want out, be prepared to pay. Back when I was growing up you never seen divorce as the norm as it is now. People want what they want and they want it NOW. This mentality has ruined alot of things and caused marriage to be the consumable item that you refer to. There's no love and no honor these days, those concepts don't matter. It seems to be all about who can play who. I'f love to go back to the 50's. Everyone had a job for as long as they wanted it, marriages gernerally went the distance and there was no ****ing internet and cell phones. Life was simple, not complicated, easy. You'll never see that again.


I am not debating at all what you are saying about modern marriage.

But I will point out that the 50s were not easy for everyone. If you were black I would not consider that an easy time at all. If you were a woman in an abusive marriage it was not easy to escape no matter how abusive physically and sexually the man was.

That does not mean that we are all better now or that it was all horrible then. 

They just had a different set of difficulties for a different subset of the population.

I do wish though that companies functioned much more like they did then and that university did not cost as much and functioned more like it did then.

But that was a very unique time after a very unique situation for one nation (The USA). Talk to some of our European posters on the board and it was not the greatest economic time.


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## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

Maria Canosa Gargano said:


> I am not debating at all what you are saying about modern marriage.
> 
> But I will point out that the 50s were not easy for everyone. If you were black I would not consider that an easy time at all. If you were a woman in an abusive marriage it was not easy to escape no matter how abusive physically and sexually the man was.
> 
> ...


 Yea, the difference then vs. now is that when something was broken, they fixed it and if it was serious enough to consider a Divorce it was justified. I went to a parenting class that cited certain things, one of them was "We all have the right to pursue happiness". Which is true, however not at someone's else's unknowingly or unwilling expense. 

And since relationships are like most things these days, disposable, then the modern day marriage is also doomed to failure.


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## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

IIJokerII said:


> Yea, the difference then vs. now is that when something was broken, they fixed it and if it was serious enough to consider a Divorce it was justified. I went to a parenting class that cited certain things, one of them was "We all have the right to pursue happiness". Which is true, however not at someone's else's unknowingly or unwilling expense.
> 
> And since relationships are like most things these days, disposable, then the modern day marriage is also doomed to failure.


Actually I think in some ways it is a positive thing that modern day marriage is changing so drastically.

No longer will it be "the next step" or "the thing you do". I honestly think not everyone was meant to get married and that as that gets more accepted other types of relationships will be accepted as well that don't require "to death do us part". 

I think in the past probably the same amount of people should never have married but you stuffed it deep inside.

I also do agree with you that it is a part of the disposable culture that has created disposable relationships. Or a highly overly consumerist culture that has made weddings into fairy tales and children into sanitized walking angels and husbands into ATMs and wives into women with no needs and can give it all. That creates unrealistic expectations for a marriage. And when that image falls apart, those who went into marriage for that consumerist image of "having it all" walk away.

But I think the silver lining is that marriage will be left for those who are truly committed. That is because marriage won't be seen as the end goal for everyone in the future. 

And this could quite honestly all be coming out of my ass. I just think I am biased in that I don't think people from older times were more moral than today. I think there were a lot of people just going through the motions TBH and then not splitting up because it was not the thing to do.


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## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

In times of individual affluence, like the ones we have been living for the last 100 years, marriages become disposable. It will take a global economic collapse where the middle class disappears altogether, for marriage to become once again, essential for survival.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

Dogbert said:


> In times of individual affluence, like the ones we have been living for the last 100 years, marriages become disposable. It will take a global economic collapse where the middle class disappears altogether, for marriage to become once again, essential for survival.


We saw this in our last recession divorce rates took a dip. Couples still were unhappy but for many it was fiscal suicide to divorce. 

Society has changed over the years, women's rights and education/jobs have evolved. The ideal of marriage is still rooted in old traditions and values. They clash in today's world.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

IIJokerII said:


> Yea, the difference then vs. now is that when something was broken, they fixed it and if it was serious enough to consider a Divorce it was justified.


Sometimes fixing it isn't the best thing because today's fixes benifit one sex way more than the other. I think that to truly fix a marriage you have let the parties involved do it and not let the courts get involved. They can help point you in the right direction but shouldn't be able to enforce men giving x% of there income to someone who shouldn't be getting it. There should be a fair and equitable way for someone who wants out of a marriage to get out without wrecking their future for good. 

Hey, sometimes we make mistakes and when we do, shouldn't have to pay for it for life.


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## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

honcho said:


> We saw this in our last recession divorce rates took a dip. Couples still were unhappy but for many it was fiscal suicide to divorce.
> 
> Society has changed over the years, women's rights and education/jobs have evolved. The ideal of marriage is still rooted in old traditions and values. They clash in today's world.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


As I said in another post, marriage is a social vehicle created for survival of the species, the problem is that people have been trying to "pimp my ride" this social vehicle and finding out that unless the passengers are willing to accept that no amount of pimping it will make it into a luxury RV.


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## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

jb02157 said:


> Sometimes fixing it isn't the best thing because today's fixes benifit one sex way more than the other. I think that to truly fix a marriage you have let the parties involved do it and not let the courts get involved. They can help point you in the right direction but shouldn't be able to enforce men giving x% of there income to someone who shouldn't be getting it. There should be a fair and equitable way for someone who wants out of a marriage to get out without wrecking their future for good.
> 
> Hey, sometimes we make mistakes and when we do, shouldn't have to pay for it for life.


 Maybe we differ in repair methods. All of us here win or lose entered a relationship that got serious enough to put marriage on the table, whatever the reason it was important enough to goad us into taking a chance on spending time with another on more levels that just sex. We trusted our significant others to be there thru the thick and thin, to ride the seasonal changes of life, to trust them into raising a family, to vow to them that in a vulnerable state they had nothing to fear.

And some people here faced this head in despite abuse, violence, disability or substance abuse, we tried, we stayed, we kept our courses true.

But now people tend to relate somehow that working overtime to make ends meet is disrespectful to their needs, that spending time with their children is being neglectful to their needs, that being unable to read a mind is a reason to toss in a concussion grenade into a life that may not have been exciting but was at the least stable, and most people here or elsewhere do not realize that stability and control is an illusion, a dormant state of chaos, and in an instant can be usurped by whatever means of life that ravages akin to a storm thru a straw village.

Am I saying that people should not divorce, no, if one or more parties think their marriages suck then end it like an adult. Realize that the unbonding process can and does hurt without the animosity of being left behind or dealing with those who were left behind in the name of infidelity. 

I got married for the right reasons, and will be Divorced for the wrong reasons. She quit, like they all do, men and woman alike, for something THEY deem as better. I suppose one day I will not look at this with the disdain I have now, but I will not only never forget but also let this serve as a painful reminder to let me know that not anyone, but everyone, has the capacity to hurt you.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

> ...not anyone, but everyone, has the capacity to hurt you.


And they will. It's just a matter of time. All you can do is be prepared for it as well as you can. That's usually not good enough. We learned by getting hurt. They learn by hurting. They will always be one step ahead, at least.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

"I got married for the right reasons, and will be Divorced for the wrong reasons. She quit"

Your divorcing for the right reason.....She Quit

Your marriage fell apart for the wrong reasons. Marriage is a marathon, our society is built on instant gratification in todays day and age. People in my opinion of lost sight of long term happiness, being content. We are bombarded daily with "be happy" and they neglect to talk about the effort to create true happiness.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

While lecturing at the university, we give one on one with seniors, dealing with aspirations

and goals. More than one person (rough age 22-25) informed me they wanted to obtain

equal economic status as their parents had by 30. This bothered me...

What took their parents thirty years to accumulate they want in 5. Seriously???

They want to play the early 80s yuppie but mix it in with dystopian socialism at same time.

My grandparents were married and parents in their teens. They were given adult responsibilities

at 16 or earlier. Today... no accountability until what.... 25? 27?

With terms such as "starter homes" and "starter marriages" no wonder the younger generations

have been absorbed into this mentality. Get a home, get married.... if it doesn't work out... just try again...

It reminds me of watching a kid press reset on the PS4.

Sorry but life is not a dress rehearsal. There are repercussions.

Both sets of my grandparents grew up in Great Depression.... I'd like to see the looks on their faces

if they were alive today.

FWIW.... the courts are still slanted against the guys..... just to keep on thread topic


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## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

Dogbert said:


> As I said in another post, marriage is a social vehicle created for survival of the species, the problem is that people have been trying to "pimp my ride" this social vehicle and finding out that unless the passengers are willing to accept that no amount of pimping it will make it into a luxury RV.


 I do not know if I agree that Modern day Marriage is still akin to the survival of me and my seed per se, in fact, splitting from my sons mother was far painless compared to a Divorce.

What marriage means to people is incapable to understand as a blanket explanation simply cannot be attained. Some marry for love, or what they perceive as love, parental pressure, "The right thing to do", etc. I chose to do so out of emotional fulfillment, as a way of making the claim then and there that I wanted to commit to one person, build and grow a life together. 

Things can be fixed, and quite frankly most problems are plain old insignificant and only add up when a large problem manifests itself, predominately an affair. Chump Lady identify's this as "Spackling" and she is spot on. So long as our needs are being met, or even exceeded, who cares about the trash not getting taken out or the toilet seat being left up.

I mean, c'mon, I'd rather stub my toe ten times a day vs losing my leg...


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

sinnister said:


> If I knew then what I know now about marriage I would never...EVERRRRRR get married.
> 
> It just devolves into a meaningless cohabitation that resembles a business venture more than a sharing of love. It BS is what it is.


It was said that one in ten marriages is one where the spouses are in love all the time of the marriage.

I happen to be in one. But I see that the one in ten is even less than that. I also see that people are doing the wrong things in their relations. Their behavior is bound to end up in disaster or in depression.

Everybody want to have a Swim Suit Models body, almost nobody wants to do the work for it. Almost nobody wants to put the effort into the relation to get what the really desire. Easy efforts give cheap results.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Control what you are capable of

if you can't control it..... to hell with it


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

IIJokerII said:


> I do not know if I agree that Modern day Marriage is still akin to the survival of me and my seed per se, in fact, splitting from my sons mother was far painless compared to a Divorce.
> 
> What marriage means to people is incapable to understand as a blanket explanation simply cannot be attained. Some marry for love, or what they perceive as love, parental pressure, "The right thing to do", etc. I chose to do so out of emotional fulfillment, as a way of making the claim then and there that I wanted to commit to one person, build and grow a life together.
> 
> ...


I married the first time out of tradition, lust, what I believed was love and probably was, but wasn't mature love. I married because I wanted to spend my free time with her and get to know her much better. I was mistaken. I was young. I was naive. I was not being realistic. I wanted what others had. I thought I could get it while being married. I was wrong. I had a miserable marriage and made it miserable for her. It was right to divorce. It was right to pay child support, but how much? There needs to be some changes in how that is determined. 

I married the second time because I thought I found a woman who was just right for me. I thought we complemented each other. I found a deep love, unlike what I had before. I found a desire to be there for her, if I could. I failed sometimes. Some things I could not predict. I'd never been through them and I'd changed. How could I know? I loved her more and more as the day went by. She changed more and more as the days went by. She showed me that she didn't want to do the things I thought were fun or relaxing. I tried to follow her into the things she wanted or seemed to want to do. We no longer complemented each other in those circumstances. It was new to me and I wasn't in it with my whole heart, as I was when we married. She was someone I did not know anymore. I still can't believe it. 

I looked for her for years, between marriages. I looked for someone like her. I dreamed of someone like her in my life. I prayed for it. I didn't read books. I went out and asked women what they wanted and liked. I learned from making mistakes. I learned from following feelings instead of my gut, then I ignored my gut because I loved my second wife so deeply. I was invested in our marriage and wanted more of the married life. 

I always thought marriage was the best way to get sex. I thought I would be safe from std's(no I don't have any, just some examples), find deep satisfaction through love, always have a buddy to do something with who understood me better than anyone, someone to share joy and sorrow with, someone to have some fun with, someone to hold me when I died(being a man, I suspected I would not outlive my wife, since men generally don't outlive women).

My parents grew up in the Great Depression. My dad died in 1986. He was not happy with the world's changes then. He would not be able to find happiness today. Mum died a couple years ago. She did not understand some things, but let them go as not her affair and kept herself busy. She understood other things. Some of it is likely a gender issue. 

We've come a long way and most of it is good. What is bad is that all seem to have to do things a certain way or are ostricized. It's not right for everyone and it's not wrong if it's an informed choice. We can accept what fits our lives, no matter what the issue. We don't have to all be the same. Violence is something else, and I won't discuss that because it's just wrong.

The seed stuff is likely true at some level, but marriage for me is much more than that. We are humans, not animals, though I sometimes question that. Seems like you've read quite a bit of stuff here about what some women and men complain about most. Much of it seems like first world problems. Some is sickening. What was truly important, is no longer. Getting married was a way for both spouses to build a good life. Now, it's about convenience and acquiring the most stuff, including the best children. If you don't have all of that and much more, the marriage isn't worth continuing. You can find better elsewhere or through a change in lifestyle. Seems normal, but doesn't sit well with me. 

Contracts are best when this is going on. They spell out everything. Anything less, like a marriage certificate, is long outdated for the western countries and moreso in the U.S.

Therefore, marriage is outdated.


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