# Reminding vs. nagging vs. parenting



## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

H and I have had a disagreement on something recently that I'm looking for some perspective on.

First, we've had a marriage-long conflict about H's messiness vs. my need for a degree of tidiness. More specifically and question-related, we've had conflicts in the past regarding the state of his laundryroom. (His laundryroom is also the general utility room so I need access.) In spite of there being a laundry sorter/organizer and trash can right there, his dirty laundry is all over the floor, along with shopping bags, receipts, tags, belts, empty detergent boxes, etc. His clean laundry is often overflowing into the outer hallway.

A couple years ago, it was finally more than I could stand and I cleaned it all up and asked him to please keep it that way, told him that the mess drove me crazy, that I found it very embarrassing whenever I had to let a serviceman in for access, told him I would be pissed if he pitted it out again.

Recently I found it to be in worse shape than ever. H said that he didn't know that it mattered to me, and that I should just remind him whenever I have an issue with it. And besides, it's "his" laundryroom so it shouldn't matter anyway.

Your thoughts?


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

My response? I've never heard of "his and her" laundry rooms. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

I think every relationship has to have a little bit of ALL (reminding, nagging and parenting).

We all have to stay on top of each other.

OP, I think you should let go a bit and just learn to not let little BS like a mess bother you too much. If it bothers you THAT much, clean it yourself. 

But if you husband wants to be messy in ONE little area of the house, what's the big deal?

Let it go, don't be so hostile towards him for such a small thing.


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## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

PBear said:


> My response? I've never heard of "his and her" laundry rooms.
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


LOL! It's not quite like it sounds. We each had a washer and dryer set when we got married. The house had two locations for hook-up, so we figured why not. It's actually uber nice when something breaks.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Switch laundry rooms. The tidier person gets the more public laundry room. Or do all the laundry in one room.


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## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

DoF said:


> But if you husband wants to be messy in ONE little area of the house, what's the big deal?


And when it's the WHOLE house?


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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

I'm not spending my whole marriage worrying about cleaning. 

-It stays messy
-You clean it
-Hire a cleaning service for one room. He gets to pay for it.

When I die, I'll be buried in dirt. I'm just starting a little early.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Again, my thoughts... At my house, I think there was a repairman in the laundry area once in 7 years. Does it matter if the room was tidy all the time? No. 

Second... The washer and dryer hadn't broken down in that time. If they did, we would have fixed them. Is it with the space for two sets of machines? Nope. Would have sold one set. Spend the money on a maid, if you like. 

As far as the rest of the house goes, that's not what you were originally asking about or describing. Let us know if you want to rephrase. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

DaytoDay said:


> And when it's the WHOLE house?


My advice changes COMPLETELY

Whole house would be pretty extreme.....


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

PBear said:


> Again, my thoughts... At my house, I think there was a repairman in the laundry area once in 7 years. Does it matter if the room was tidy all the time? No.
> 
> Second... The washer and dryer hadn't broken down in that time. If they did, we would have fixed them. Is it with the space for two sets of machines? Nope. Would have sold one set. Spend the money on a maid, if you like.
> 
> ...


Agreed

Besides, I'm the one that fixes drier and washer when they break.

My wife used to be big on being a clean freak, until she drove herself insane cleaning her life away.......she reached a point where she doesn't care and we also assigned cleaning responsibility to our kids.

Now, our house is probably cleaner than most families with multiple kids....but we no longer go nuts making sure it's "perfect", cause my wife found out that there is no such a thing as perfection, and chasing it is impossible.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

There are a lot of issues going on in your marriage. This is the tip of the iceberg.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

DaytoDay said:


> Recently I found it to be in worse shape than ever. H said that he didn't know that it mattered to me, and that I should just remind him whenever I have an issue with it. * And besides, it's "his" laundryroom so it shouldn't matter anyway.*
> 
> Your thoughts?


:iagree:

If you have gone to the trouble of having his and her laundryrooms, then just leave him alone about it.

You're micromanaging your husband, not good.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

michzz said:


> :iagree:
> 
> If you have gone to the trouble of having his and her laundryrooms, then just leave him alone about it.
> 
> You're micromanaging your husband, not good.


Agreed

Micromanagement is as bad in relationships as it is in business.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

michzz said:


> :iagree:
> 
> If you have gone to the trouble of having his and her laundryrooms, then just leave him alone about it.
> 
> You're micromanaging your husband, not good.


It reminds me of a Peanuts cartoon where Linus asks Lucy if he is buttering his bread too loudly.

http://www.fivecentsplease.org/dpb/loud.gif


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

I think I would just make sure the door to his laundry room closes, and that his mess remains contained behind that door. If his clean clothes, for instance, make their way out into the hall, open the door, deposit them inside the room and close the door again. If the mess in there becomes too much for him, he'll clean it up. Otherwise, just keep the door closed and don't worry about it. If a repairman needs to get in there, have your husband be the one to meet him at the house for the service call.


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## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

Sorry, PBear, I certainly wasn't meaning to be misleading or vague. I narrowed the topic to a recent discussion about the laundry room just to try to keep the discussion contained and not ramble all over the place. As I said, the conflict of messiness vs. tidiness is a marriage-long -- and marriage-wide -- issue. It's not just this one thing, it's not just this one area. But certainly the laundry room specifically has been covered in the past. Scarlet, you are right, there are a lot of issues, I was just trying to take one at a time.

So, for me, I have an issue with H saying he didn't know that it mattered to me, because I spelled it out for him. Besides that, even if I didn't, it seems it could have been assumed because of all of our other conflicts regarding his messiness. I read a post earlier where a guy came home from a two-month job overseas to find that his wife had packed up all her things and moved out and told him she wanted a D. After some discussion, she admitted that she never did voice her complaints and give him a chance to work on them. Well I have certainly voiced mine, but my H still doesn't do them, claims he didn't know, says I should remind him periodically.

My perspective is that if you ask someone something, you can "remind" them twice. After two times, it becomes nagging. And when you make it part of your regular routine, then you're parenting. I don't want to be a parent to my husband. It kills my libido for him. And I could spend my whole day cleaning up after him, but then I'd still be parenting him, plus be too tired for sex. I don't even do that for my teenage son, to whom I'm legitimately a parent.

To your suggestion of getting a maid, we used to have a house-cleaner twice a month. She was great for cleaning. But the messiness is a much bigger issues, like finding last year's tax return in the stacks of paper in H's office is not something she could do. Believe me when I say that I am NOT a neat freak, more like I have a real fear of someone featuring our house on the show "Hoarders."

I appreciate the comments, like that I'm micro-managing him. I didn't look at it like that. I look at it like I'm asking him to, at minimum, be a courteous and responsible roommate, and at maximum, to do something that his wife would appreciate. Which would make me feel loved by him. Which in turn would make me want to have sex with him. But he doesn't (across the board), and so I don't. He just complains about not getting sex.

So since I'm not willing to live like he does, I will put my energy to owning what bothers me and clean it myself, and close the door when I can't, and hire a house cleaner for part of it, and on things I can't do myself, repeatedly remind him (parent him) like he asked. And I simply won't worry about his complaint of not getting sex, and let him figure out what will motivate me instead of the things I have specifically asked for? Is that reasonable?


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Have you said it to him just like that? 

"I look at it like I'm asking him to, at minimum, be a courteous and responsible roommate, and at maximum, to do something that his wife would appreciate. Which would make me feel loved by him. Which in turn would make me want to have sex with him. But he doesn't (across the board), and so I don't."


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## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

BTW, thank you everyone. This has been very helpful for me.


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## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> Have you said it to him just like that?
> 
> "I look at it like I'm asking him to, at minimum, be a courteous and responsible roommate, and at maximum, to do something that his wife would appreciate. Which would make me feel loved by him. Which in turn would make me want to have sex with him. But he doesn't (across the board), and so I don't."


Yes, pretty much exactly those words, multiple times.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

DaytoDay said:


> Yes, pretty much exactly those words, multiple times.


So he doesn't understand you're an "acts of service" kind of gal then? I didn't read through your whole post history so I'm sorry if you've already said this but have you been to counseling with him?


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## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

Sure, acts of service, though I don't remember all of them. I don't think it was my first but it's been whittled down to that one. 

Counseling, seminars, weekend retreats, book studies -- you name it. At this point, I'm just trying to work on me. My daily mantra is the Serenity Prayer. I'm just looking for the wisdom part.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

So is he just not paying attention to you, or is he being deliberately obtuse when he says "I didn't know you need the utility room to say neat"?

Stick a sign on the door reminding him to keep it tidy. There's his reminder. 

Bet it won't work, though. Messy people rarely become tidy people. I'm not sure what you can do about that without becoming mean mommy.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

ok so obviously you've been through it all with this guy. wow.

He's definitely not changing. So I think working on yourself is the best option here. I do sort of agree you might be micromanaging him but it seems he's asking you for that though. No one wants to live in filth and be embarrassed to have people come to your door. 
There has to be some sort of shift in the home or a compromise.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

Don't deny him of sex OP, that would be wrong.

Focus on issue at hand. If we are talking entire house, then you need to tell him it's extremely disrespectful for him to make a mess after you cleaned etc and you will simply not live in a messy house.

Put the hammer down and tell him that if it doesn't change, you are thinking about leaving, make it CLEAR that it's a deal breaker.

Stand your ground if this issue is that important and IMO, if it's the whole house we are talking about, it would be important to me too.

I don't like messes or messy people....


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## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

Nora Jane, I love your avatar! I need that for my forehead.

I don't know his intention. He's a very friendly, charming, personable guy. If you met him, you'd probably really like him. But the years I've spent with him have made me question my own sanity (which is why I occasionally post silly questions on TAM.) I imagine he could look you straight in the eye while slowly imbedding a knife in your heart, telling you that he would never do anything to hurt you, and you and he would both believe it. It's weird, hard to describe. I've actually looked into narcissism because they're characterized as having extreme self-denial. But I'm not qualified to diagnose it anyway, nor could I do anything about it. And I've spent W-A-Y too much time on HIM anyway. So I'm just trying to get my own head straight.

Unless anyone has a reason to contest it, I like my conclusion above where I applied everyone's suggestions.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

DaytoDay said:


> Nora Jane, I love your avatar! I need that for my forehead.
> 
> I don't know his intention. He's a very friendly, charming, personable guy. If you met him, you'd probably really like him. But the years I've spent with him have made me question my own sanity (which is why I occasionally post silly questions on TAM.) I imagine he could look you straight in the eye while slowly imbedding a knife in your heart, telling you that he would never do anything to hurt you, and you and he would both believe it. It's weird, hard to describe. I've actually looked into narcissism because they're characterized as having extreme self-denial. But I'm not qualified to diagnose it anyway, nor could I do anything about it. And I've spent W-A-Y too much time on HIM anyway. So I'm just trying to get my own head straight.
> 
> Unless anyone has a reason to contest it, I like my conclusion above where I applied everyone's suggestions.


Sorry, but what's your conclusion? Mine is that he hears what your needs are, but really doesn't care about meeting them. So what are you going to do about that? Are they needs, or wants?

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

DoF, I don't consider it "denying him sex," as you phrased it. Sex is an act that is supposed to be desired and enjoyed by both parties involved. Anything short of that is rape in my book. I've done the "wifely duty" act before and I'll never do it again.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

I think dribbling out what your real issue is with him in the guise of a laundryroom issue, slowed the rest of us from getting the full story for effective commentary.

That said, if you really do think your H is a hoarder, then you need to get him assessed psychologically. Whether or not you decide to end this marriage, I think you owe him that.

If he is one, then he has a psychological disorder not easily changed.


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## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

PBear said:


> Sorry, but what's your conclusion? Mine is that he hears what your needs are, but really doesn't care about meeting them. So what are you going to do about that? Are they needs, or wants?
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My conclusion was just regarding the tidiness issue: that I'm not completely irrational in wanting to live in a tidy house, but that I might be off-base in expecting him to clean it up, so I'll address it myself with one of the various options offered. I WANT a really nice house, I NEED a tidy house. I don't spend much time on "wants." I agree with you, I feel like he hears my requests/complaints but simply doesn't care. I can't change him, but I do appreciate the shared perspective.

Sorry, michzz, it seems I'm always providing either too much or too little information. Someday I'll figure it out. Though I appreciate your advice, I don't believe my husband needs psychological evaluation as a hoarder (as if he'd agree to if even if I did.) I think he's just messy. Honestly, I don't know what "real issue" you're referring to. He's messy (very) and unresponsive to my requests, unless I monitor and remind him regulary. You're reading something else?


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

DaytoDay said:


> To your suggestion of getting a maid, we used to have a house-cleaner twice a month. She was great for cleaning. But the messiness is a much bigger issues, like finding last year's tax return in the stacks of paper in H's office is not something she could do. *Believe me when I say that I am NOT a neat freak, more like I have a real fear of someone featuring our house on the show "Hoarders."*





DaytoDay said:


> *Sorry, michzz, it seems I'm always providing either too much or too little information. Someday I'll figure it out.* Though I appreciate your advice, I don't believe my husband needs psychological evaluation as a hoarder (as if he'd agree to if even if I did.) I think he's just messy. *Honestly, I don't know what "real issue" you're referring to. He's messy (very) and unresponsive to my requests. You're reading something else?*


Um, quoting your own words above regarding hoarders.

BTW, too little information is always wrong for people to render useful opinions.


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## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

Sorry, please replace: 
_Believe me when I say that I am NOT a neat freak, more like I have a real fear of someone featuring our house on the show "Hoarders."_

with:
_Believe me when I say that I am NOT a neat freak._
**edited for clarity, removed emphasis and subtle humor. 

Apparently in this case, too much was bad.

Are you mad at me for something? Perhaps I'm reading into it but your post is coming across as rather terse.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

DaytoDay said:


> And when it's the WHOLE house?


Is it the whole house in reality, or are you just padding your side of the disagreement?


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

DaytoDay said:


> Sorry, please replace:
> _Believe me when I say that I am NOT a neat freak, more like I have a real fear of someone featuring our house on the show "Hoarders."_
> 
> with:
> ...


Not mad, but I get confused easily when you wondered where I got the information about hoarders. 

So if he is not a hoarder and the laundryroom is not really the problem, then the problem is that you want a clean house and he doesn't care if it is or not?


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## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

Dad&Hubby said:


> Is it the whole house in reality, or are you just padding your side of the disagreement?


LOL! Love your sig line!

He is messy, period. The whole house isn't messy because I'm cleaning it regularly so I'll take his things and put them in his office or bedroom. The areas that are deemed "his" are horrendous, like you can't-see-the-floor messy. I don't let him drive my car because he pits it out when he does. When we've discussed the messy house, he says he only cares about the "living area," which for him would be the kitchen and family room (for me, any "room"), so I interpret that as he's not even trying to clean anywhere else. Or he says it is clean, but there's still piles all over the floor, things that didn't hit the trash can, dirty clothes, etc. I really do have the exact same interactions with my teenage son. 

There isn't a question about whether he's messy, he'll even admit it. My focus is on how to respond to it, what's appropriate, what's a reasonable expectation. I've explained my need to him and asked with an expectation that he'll remember and do it without my having to parent him in order to get it done. I didn't expect him to mind-read, nor did I ask him to do something humiliating or immoral or obscure. Yes, it's unnatural for him, it will take some effort, but if it was something he was already doing I wouldn't have had to ask him, right? And I relate it to the things he has asked me which I took ownership of and obliged (like not leaving tomorrow's outfit hanging on the doorknob.)

I'm hearing it's not something I can expect. I'm told to close the door, clean it up myself, to stop micro-managing. Okay, fine. Unfortunately, the solution does not draw me close to him, does not make me feel loved by him, does not make him attractive to me. But, it does get the mess clean.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

DaytoDay said:


> *I'm hearing it's not something I can expect. I'm told to close the door, clean it up myself, to stop micro-managing. * Okay, fine. Unfortunately, the solution does not draw me close to him, does not make me feel loved by him, does not make him attractive to me. But, it does get the mess clean.


The bolded part was a statement made when you specifically said it was about a laundryroom being messy--his laundryroom. and you had another.

If the problem is really as you have now stated, then of course that statement about closing a door no longer applies.

You two are different people with a conflicting attitude about house cleaning.

I recommend both marriage counseling and a maid service.


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## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

michzz said:


> So if he is not a hoarder and the laundryroom is not really the problem, then the problem is that you want a clean house and he doesn't care if it is or not?


The laundry room is a problem, but only one of many. You don't want the long list, I'm sure. What *I* am looking for is a perspective on what is a reasonable expectation in a M relationship. Whether I ask him to clean his laundry room or office or car, or to record his checks in the checkbook so I can balance it, or to put back the detergent after he uses it to wash his car (yes, there are some things he's anal about,) or to check with me before he makes a scheduling commitment, etc., what is a reasonable expectation? It seems that he wants me to follow him around and remind him. I don't want to because then I feel like he's my ward rather than my partner. All of these things can be "worked around," but then what is the relationship built on? I almost choke whenever I hear someone on tv say, "I could always count on you!" Shall we talk about how many times I've discovered too late that there's no toilet paper in the bathroom?

I can certainly find work-arounds for all my complaints. And then I can stop meeting his requests and let him find work-arounds, too. Is this how most marriages work?


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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

DaytoDay said:


> I'm hearing it's not something I can expect. I'm told to close the door, clean it up myself, to stop micro-managing. Okay, fine. Unfortunately, the solution does not draw me close to him, does not make me feel loved by him, does not make him attractive to me. But, it does get the mess clean.


Why's it gotta be that way? You don't feel loved because his clothes are on the floor?

It seem like you wanted everybody to tell you to "lay down the law or ELSE" and that didn't happen. So now you'll do the pouty-pout and shut down on him?

Childish...


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Here's the problem. You're here looking for advice. He's not. So even if we nod our heads with you and say that he should do better, it won't make any difference in your life. He's not likely to change, mainly because he's got no interest in changing. 

So where does that leave you? Accept the solutions you've found or leave. Accepting and holding resentments is NOT a long term solution, IMHO. The resentments will come to a boil sooner or later. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

Thanks for chiming in, Revamped, but you could lose the snottitude.

Got anything more productive to add?


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I dislike the term "nagging", it's very dismissive.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

It's not snottitude, it's belligerence. Let's cue the right terminology.


And the end of your life, will you actually be saying to yourself, "I shoulda cleaned more"?

I'd like you to take five minutes and go find Erma Bombeck's "If I Had My Life To Live OVer: List of Regrets.

Let me know what you think after that...


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## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

Honestly, PBEAR, I wasn't even looking for advice. I was looking for perspective. Perspective lets me know if I'm seeing clearly, advice tells me to look elsewhere. Someone telling me that they think I'm micro-managing is perspective. Someone telling me that I should close the door is advice, and something I'm pretty sure I could have figured out myself.

I find comfort in hearing 20 people tell me that their spouse is exactly the same, and lets me know that I don't have a problem, I have "normal." 20 people telling me that their spouses are not like that, and they would have a real issue with it if they were, lets me know that I likely have a problem and the solution shouldn't be something that supports that dysfunction.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

My wife has habits that annoy the hell out of me, but she wasn't put on this earth to conform to my way of doing things and I'm not her daddy or supervisor. Your way isn't necessarily "right" and your preferences aren't really "needs". You merely have a different opinion on the importance of laundry room cleanliness. It's your right to have your opinion but it's his right to have his. Somewhere in the middle is a compromise. The laundry room cleanliness isn't as important to your future happiness as is your relationship with your husband. Would you prefer a husband who felt respected or a clean laundry room without a husband? I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest you have habits that annoy him. Is it his right or duty to change you? My wife's annoying habits are part of who she is and if she changed them all she wouldn't be the person I fell in love with and married. I'd rather deal with her habits than have some other guy dealing with them.


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## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

Revamped said:


> It's not snottitude, it's belligerence. Let's cue the right terminology.
> 
> 
> And the end of your life, will you actually be saying to yourself, "I shoulda cleaned more"?
> ...


LOL! It must feel good to know you won't be saying "I wish I had been more belligerent!" 

Actually I think you and I would get along really well IRL.

To your point, on the contrary. I regularly wish "someone had cleaned" more. Every time I've had to spend 45 minutes looking for the personal property tax receipt because someone didn't take 30 seconds to file it, or 20 minutes trying to balance the bank statement because someone couldn't take 20 seconds to log a check, or pay $35 in late fees because someone couldn't get the mail from the mailbox to the desk without losing something on the way, -- times a thousand examples -- I wished "someone had cleaned more."

I'm just having a hard time thinking this is the life everyone lives, so I thought I'd ask.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Here's my thoughts again... Your original question was about "his" laundry room. It would be perfectly reasonable (to me) that he had "his" space, and he could keep it the way he liked. 

As far as the other stuff goes, like dirty laundry all over. It's normal for spouses to have a difference in "acceptable" levels of clean. His levels of acceptable are not yours. That sucks. In an ideal marriage, a compromise would be reached. 

I'll leave it there...

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

You found tax reciepts in 45 minutes? Wow, took me two DAYS! 

I honestly think you need to check your priorities.

In the movie "Fatherhood" Grammy said Life is a roller coaster. It goes up, then it comes down. Some didn't like it. They preferred the merry-go-round. Me? I LIKE the roller coaster.

Your husband's slobbish ways aren't going to change. Whether you nag, yell, pester, leave notes or just leaving him alone about it. 

Accept his love, and brush aside his mess. In the grand scope of Life, isn't Love more precious than anything else?


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## Nikita2270 (Mar 22, 2014)

You simply have two choices....put up with it and accept it isn't going to change...or do something more permanent.

I had a very similar situation during marriage. My ex believed that cleaning was my responsibility, which was fine, except he wouldn't even keep tidy.

I'd work a 10 hour day, pick the kids up and come home to a mess that I had to clean up. I cannot stand mess and disorganization. I like a precise house where there's no junk and where things are in their place. I won't start making dinner when I come home if there's any mess.

So invariably, over a certain number of years...I shut down with my ex. I would put my energy into my kids, my job and keeping the house organized and zero into him because he didn't deserve consideration. We led very separate lives for a long time. I spent years fantasizing about having my own home. So I started planning a divorce.

When my children were a suitable age, I filed....hired a real estate agent and bought my own home.

I can tell you that one of the most wonderful days of my adult life was the first night I slept in my new house.

Now, every single day when I come home after work, I walk in to my well-designed, cute, clean and organized home. Its wonderful. I don't like my new partner to clean....I like doing it myself but he always keeps the house tidy and neat. His space in the house is kept up to my standards.

I am one of those people that cannot live in a mess. For years, I lived with high stress because I could never relax in a mess during marriage....it just is something that I cannot tolerate. If you're the same....you need to explain to him how serious it is and if he doesn't change, you need to make a decision to either put up with it or move out.

Personally, divorce was the best gift I've ever given myself in my adult life. It was a great choice for me.


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## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> My wife has habits that annoy the hell out of me, but she wasn't put on this earth to conform to my way of doing things and I'm not her daddy or supervisor. Your way isn't necessarily "right" and your preferences aren't really "needs". You merely have a different opinion on the importance of laundry room cleanliness. It's your right to have your opinion but it's his right to have his. Somewhere in the middle is a compromise. The laundry room cleanliness isn't as important to your future happiness as is your relationship with your husband. Would you prefer a husband who felt respected or a clean laundry room without a husband? I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest you have habits that annoy him. Is it his right or duty to change you? My wife's annoying habits are part of who she is and if she changed them all she wouldn't be the person I fell in love with and married. I'd rather deal with her habits than have some other guy dealing with them.


Unbelievable, you probably have provided the most on-target response of all of them to my initial inquiry. Thanks for dropping in! I think your question about "would I prefer a husband who felt respected" (forget the last part) is where I'm having my difficulty. So first, is there a difference in your book between feeling respected even though your W is faking it or feeling respected because your W really does? Perhaps not, perhaps ignorance is bliss, at least until the post I referenced above happens (the one where the guy comes home to an empty house.) To me, if I was the W, it would make a huge difference.

Assuming there is a difference, and that authentic respect has more value, I'm having a hard time translating "he knows this drives me crazy but he isn't addressing it" into any genuine respect for the man. You are absolutely right, I have things that have annoyed my H, and when he mentioned them, I addressed them, pronto. And the reason I did is because I cared for him. The fact that I did and the reason I did is the only perspective I have, so when he doesn't respond to my request in kind, I interpret that as lack of care for me.

Here is an example in reverse. He would like me to go to his company Christmas party. I won't do it. He has told me how it makes him feel that I won't do it, and it sounds very much like how he makes me feel when he doesn't do something I've asked. I completely get it and own that I'm doing the same thing to him, but he doesn't relate the two at all. He thinks it's horrible that I won't do what he wants, but sees no big deal in his not doing what I want. With that, I lose even more respect for him because he has double standards.

To your question, I would like to have a H that I respect, but what do I base that respect on when his interactions with me seem so careless? Closing the door to the laundry room or cleaning it up or doing any number of an infinite number of work-arounds to my requests that he ignores does not foster my respect for the man.


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## Nikita2270 (Mar 22, 2014)

> Accept his love, and brush aside his mess. In the grand scope of Life, isn't Love more precious than anything else?


When someone loves you, they recognize the things that give you anxiety and try to reduce them.

When you have children, teaching them how to organize and clean is an important life skill. My parents taught me that early in life and it helped me at school and at work. Cleaning is a very basic life skill.

Messy homes attract bugs, mold, dust, etc and are often very unhealthy places.

If her husband was in love with her, he'd put a minimal effort in to keep the space neat.

I don't tolerate my kids cleaning up after themselves...and there no way I'd ever tolerate it again with another adult living in my home.

This would be a deal-breaker for me. No thanks.


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## Nikita2270 (Mar 22, 2014)

> The fact that I did and the reason I did is the only perspective I have, so when he doesn't respond to my request in kind, I interpret that as lack of care for me.


:iagree:


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## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

Revamped said:


> *Accept his love*, and brush aside his mess. In the grand scope of Life, isn't Love more precious than anything else?


What makes you think he does? Shouldn't there be some evidence? What would that look like since addressing my requests obviously doesn't make the list?


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Hi, Day,
I'm coming into this late but you asked for perspective and I'd like to share mine.

I'm closing in on 27th anniversary and based on the idea that you two still have the laundry machines you owned when you wed I'm Guessing you are under 10.

Like your husband I'm messy. I mean I like to see the floor but I don't clean every day. But Laundry is my pet peeve. I discovered that as much as My wife likes to keep a clean house she hates folding laundry. I'm sure my co workers have commented to each other there comes Nail with his wrinkly shirts. I determined that no matter how nice the dressers Were that I build, she would live out of a laundry basket given the choice. 

So I changed my attitude. I couldn't change her but I could change my reaction to her. As we raised our 4 teens the joke in the house was the legend of the laundry fairy. Leave a $20 bill in your jeans and the laundry fairy will return your laundry clean and folded, otherwise do your own. Except my Wife, I do hers. Between the humor and just doing it, she has advanced to the point that she will fold laundry if I don't get right to it. The fight is gone. It only took 10 - 15 years. 

I hope that gives you some perspective. 

BTW I want my own laundry room. 

MN


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## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

Nikita, thanks for your reply. It's definitely nice to know that it's unacceptable to some other people as well. And I completely relate to the "high-stress" environment. I've told him from early on that I can't relax in chaos. I'm visual and he's audio(?), and I've tried to relate the messy environment for me to him hearing a song played that was riddled with bad notes. I can't even count the number of things I've done out of my norm because it was important to him, but he acts like my requests are just too much to ask of him, and they aren't important anyway so why bother.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

DaytoDay said:


> LOL! It must feel good to know you won't be saying "I wish I had been more belligerent!"
> 
> Actually I think you and I would get along really well IRL.
> 
> ...


This kind of stuff, the financial, would drive me insane. No effing way. 

The clothes and crap all over the house would also drive me insane. Also, no effing way.

I can't live among piles of crap, and I can't live with someone who entirely undermines any sort of financial responsibility.

I'm also with you on the toilet paper. He's not a 2 year old who can't change the roll when he uses it up. Hell, even a 2 year old can be taught.

I don't know what you can do now that you've already married him and created a life together. I couldn't live with someone like that. I'd have to have separate houses and finances.

I don't know how to help, but I totally agree it's like you have another child, except for his shiny clean car. You have my sympathy.


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## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

Thx, Mr. N! Just hit 20, actually. Not the same machines anymore, just liked the arrangement and kept it going. Cheap used machines are easy to find. Ironically, laundry has been an issue for all of the 20 years, it just morphed from one issue to the next. His room/my room was one of the solutions, but I don't think he was ever happy about it. He thinks I should do it. I'm beginning to believe he thinks I should do everything. Maybe he actually wants a mother.

I'm glad you were so successful in getting your issue worked out. BTW, how do the two of you handle requests by the other?


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

DaytoDay said:


> BTW, how do the two of you handle requests by the other?


Well that can be a more complicated matter. We have an unusual power structure. She was an oldest daughter, so she is dominant by training if not by inclination. Think of it as an unwilling leader. I've been around strong women all my life and I like them so my inclination is to be submissive. But having grown up with three sisters If I don't want to do something I just don't. I'm a Smart alek. Not a true submissive. So How we handle requests. If she makes a request, I want to please her so I do it. If she makes an unreasonable request, I'll tell her why I'm not going to do it. If she can convince me that it is Reasonable (usually she succeeds, but her mother rarely succeeds) I'll do it. Now she will probably say that Yes I do it, but not when she wanted it done. Now if I make a request she can choose. If I get turned down too often, I'm smart alek enough (or man enough) to find a way to do it without her or her permission. For example I have a certain amount of money that I can use for lunch, Gas or other incidentals. I have simply saved up enough to buy things that I have been told not to buy. On the other hand I have also used my stash/savings to cover household bills or emergencies. 

Now that was probably a whole lot more than you wanted to know. But your point that if he loved you he would do what you ask is sort of answered in there. I do what she asks because I love her, AND because I get pleasure emotionally by pleasing her. So I have extra motivation.

That does not rule out your expectation. Years ago I picked up a copy of the sex starved Marriage in a bookstore and read a statement something like this. "you say you love me, but when I ask you for something that will make me happy, you don't give it to me. It is hard for me to believe that you love me when you fail to give me what I need to be happy" This is exactly where I see you at this point. This is the Reason Nikita is Happily divorced. This is a real danger. While the Laundry situation at our home is at peace, there are still requests that are denied. this week nothing is critical, that has not always been the case.

MN


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

norajane said:


> I'm also with you on the toilet paper. He's not a 2 year old who can't change the roll when he uses it up. Hell, even a 2 year old can be taught.


My three year old does! I have 3 boys and a husband. No way am I going to live in a pile of crap everywhere with stinky boys. I taught them to clean up and especially to change the toilet paper roll and put the seat down! 

OP, when I met my H he wasn't the exactly an organize clean everything type of guy. 

However, over the years he has compromised with me on my OCD cleanliness. He still forgets from time to time, but I don't really give him a hard time over it. I gently remind him. 

The difference here is that your H doesn't seem to care or he is just forgetful. That's just the way he is. Everyone is going to do something in a marriage that annoys the other partner. My H has his (not related to cleanliness), but I weigh out everything, then decide if it's worth staying or going. My H is absolutely perfect - except in one particular area. I am choosing right now to live with it and work with him on it. It requires a lot of work on my part as well as his. Eventually, I think we can over come it. But that is the conclusion I have come to.

You have to come to your own conclusion about whether or not this is something that is going to make or break you guys.


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## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

I just witnessed something interesting. Or rather, frustrating. Related to this.

S14 was at a neighbors. He has a standing rule to be home at 6:00. At 6:05, H was flustered and crabbing because S14 wasn't home yet. He said he should know the rule by now. I pointed out that it had been a while since he had needed to apply it, so perhaps he needed a reminder. H said he didn't, that he should know. I asked him what the difference was between S14 having to remember the 6:00 rule, whereas H didn't need to remember the tidy laundry room rule and deserved the courtesy of a reminder. He said that the 6:00 rule was to prevent an imposition on the neighbors. I said the tidy laundry room rule was to prevent an imposition to me.

I asked him to explain the difference. 

Now he's pixxed at me. I still have no answer.

I'm married to a 60yo man that expects more of a 14yo than he does of himself. This all seems so dysfunctional. I'll let you know if I ever get an answer. Bet I don't.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

DaytoDay said:


> I asked him what the difference was between S14 having to remember the 6:00 rule, whereas H didn't need to remember the tidy laundry room rule and deserved the courtesy of a reminder. He said that the 6:00 rule was to prevent an imposition on the neighbors. I said the tidy laundry room rule was to prevent an imposition to me.
> 
> I asked him to explain the difference.
> 
> ...


So you have now made it that he can't enforce a rule about a teenager being home on time because he can't clean the house?

Does this mean you won't back him up about it? Does it also mean your kids don't have to respect his rules?

Circling back everything to that which annoys you is not a good strategy in life.

I recommend, again, marriage counseling and a maid service.


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## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

michzz said:


> So you have now made it that he can't enforce a rule about a teenager being home on time because he can't clean the house?
> 
> Does this mean you won't back him up about it? Does it also mean your kids don't have to respect his rules?


Quite the contrary. I do expect S14 to know. When he got home and I asked him, he said he did know and was on his way home already. I'm not going to squawk over 5 minutes. The thing is, H expects it of him and everyone else too, except himself. It's not about changing an appropriate expectation, it's about H recognizing his double standard.

FrenchFry, I love your perspective on everything. We used to hang with some friends that were alter-egos to us like you're describing yourself and your H. It was wonderful to be able to talk with another female about my H's annoying traits and vice versa. We were able to offer our female perspectives on opposing issues and get a backdoor look into our H's minds. I think everyone should have someone like that.

I do have a question for you, though. Could you have solved the issue just by putting a note in your calendar to clean it on a regular basis, like the third Tuesday of the month or something? I don't know how often it needs it, but even if it was scheduled and doesn't need it, then at least you would have checked. Then your H would have been content that it would be done soon, and wouldn't be in the unenviable position of having to act like your parent and tell you all the time.

Either way, I'm glad you found something that works for you. My fear would be that it's really just resignation on his part, which breeds resentment, and that someday you're going to get the ILYBINILWY speech, all starting with the fact that he couldn't get you to take personal responsibility for the refrigerator.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

DH doesn't clean in general, and we're both messy people unfortunately. My desk right now is covered in unfiled paperwork and I get a headache just thinking about having to do my tax this year with everything so messy. I get in and clean it, then I mess it up again. Never ending cycle. I'm pretty tidy at work though, go figure.

I hired a cleaner because I can't stand cleaning but I hate the house being dirty. DH wouldn't even know where the vacuum cleaner is stored. Probably wouldn't know how to turn it on. I suspect he hasn't cleaned a toilet in his life, ever, no kidding. You're right about the mess though; cleaners can't help with that.

Personally I'd get rid of his nooks and crannies (2nd laundry room? Just a place to store crap) and start sorting things as they come in the house, mostly into the bin. My kids will figure it out one day, I'm sure. "Oh, that didn't look important and was left lying around so I tossed it." Just happened yesterday actually. I only felt a twinge of guilt too. Since you're an organised sort of person, this is your field of expertise. Why are you splitting paperwork? I would've thought it'd be easier with one person dealing with all of it. Sounds like it's chaos with two people doing their own thing.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

My older brother is such a neat freak that everyone in our family says that they are stressed when they visit. ie, my brother acts as if the most important things that you will ever remember in your life is how to place the dishes in his dishwasher.......even if you only come to visit every other year...... The verbal abuse is unbearable.......

I'm in the comfortable position these days that my fiance is happy if I work and happy if I don't work...... so I keep house for the both of us. He is messier than I am but I think that's an advantage. Just when I am ready to clean up something, he still hasn't noticed that something needs cleaning........

OP, what were your initial agreements when you two started cohabitating / got married? Did you know how messy he was when you two were dating?


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## committed4ever (Nov 13, 2012)

French Fry thanks for that peek into the mind of the ... umm ... the less neat person. LOL! My H doesn't create a LOT of mess (some, though). But he TOTALLY HATES housekeeping. He will fix stuff, renovate stuff, keeps on top of the cars and lawn but doesn't want anything to do with cooking, cleaning, laundry. But ironically on top of that, he HATES clutter, dirt and a mess. This is really not a problem in our marriage because I don't mind cooking, cleaning and doing laundry, but I cannot understand how a person can hate clutter but also hate cleaning. How you can spend a week meticulously painting, measuring, cutting and installing crown moulding but baulk at folding one basket of towels. I know the bottom line is because he doesn't want to but what is the big deal, you can do it in 5 minutes versus a week for the crown moulding.

To the OP:

Just curious, how do you see this ending up? You have been married 20 years, will you just be able to live with it or are you fed up and cannot take it anymore? For me personally the day I dont want to have sex with my H for any reason is the day that my marriage is on its way to the end. No sex to me means we are no longer one. Of course you have been married twice as long as I have but I sure do hope I feel the same way I that I feel now when I get where you are.


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## firebelly1 (Jul 9, 2013)

DaytoDay said:


> LOL! Love your sig line!
> 
> He is messy, period. The whole house isn't messy because I'm cleaning it regularly so I'll take his things and put them in his office or bedroom. The areas that are deemed "his" are horrendous, like you can't-see-the-floor messy. I don't let him drive my car because he pits it out when he does. When we've discussed the messy house, he says he only cares about the "living area," which for him would be the kitchen and family room (for me, any "room"), so I interpret that as he's not even trying to clean anywhere else. Or he says it is clean, but there's still piles all over the floor, things that didn't hit the trash can, dirty clothes, etc. I really do have the exact same interactions with my teenage son.
> 
> ...


So what I'm reading is that you don't feel like having sex with him because he won't do the thing that would make you feel loved - which is at least keep the common areas of the house clean to your standard of "clean." 

On the one hand, I get it. I like having a neat home - to my standard of "neatness". I resent people in my house (i.e. my kids) leaving wrappers everywhere, etc. On the other hand, I have been on the receiving end of someone who didn't feel that I met his standard. My stbxh was constantly getting irritated with me for not meeting his neatness standard and I knew I was never going to be able to comply. I just had other priorities. But it wasn't personal. I wasn't doing it because I didn't love him - I did it because I was okay with my level of neatness and complying with his level of neatness felt burdensome to me. If I had to comply, I would have resented it because it would have meant time taken away from other things I would rather be doing. And I resented his constant, angry reminders because it made me feel like a child. So then there was a part of me that WANTED to rebel. That sounds like a bit of what is going on with your husband. Passive aggressiveness. 

Then there is a part of me that feels like your anger is a lot of energy to put into something that in the grand scheme of life and death is just so minor. You have an unhappy marriage not because your husband is cheating, abusing, or lying to you, but because he won't pick up his socks. And you are not getting to enjoy sex in your life because you think of it as a reward or punishment for him. Sad.


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## inquizitivemind (Jul 16, 2013)

Honestly, if my husband can just remember to pick up his pepsi can and dishes from the coffee table and put them in the sink, I am happy. Sometimes I even have to remind him of that, but when I do, he smiles and does it. My husband's mother didn't put her foot down with him when he was little and he is MESSY. I'm not a neat freak, but I do like trash to be in the trash, dirty clothes in a bin, magazines in a drawer. I just don't like clutter. 

So, how do I stand being married to someone messy? I remind him, in a nice way, please do this, please do that. Does he mind? No. He knows that it is better to have a neat place than live in a pig sty. It works for us, and sometimes when I go over to remind him, I might just steal a kiss.


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## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

breeze said:


> Personally I'd get rid of his nooks and crannies (2nd laundry room? Just a place to store crap) and start sorting things as they come in the house, mostly into the bin. My kids will figure it out one day, I'm sure. "Oh, that didn't look important and was left lying around so I tossed it." Just happened yesterday actually. I only felt a twinge of guilt too. Since you're an organised sort of person, this is your field of expertise. Why are you splitting paperwork? I would've thought it'd be easier with one person dealing with all of it. Sounds like it's chaos with two people doing their own thing.


 I think that's a great way to handle the kids' things. I couldn't very well toss out all of H's laundry and say I didn't think it was important. And if I tossed the paperwork, I'd be throwing out important things like tax returns. One of the counselors suggested that the person that was better at something, or that was more bothered by something, should be the person responsible for the chore. Unfortunately, H would agree that that would mean I would be responsible for pretty much everything. H would be responsible for bringing home the lowest golf score, a winning softball game, the record for the most social activities, and remembering important information, like ex-gf's birthdays.



NextTimeAround said:


> OP, what were your initial agreements when you two started cohabitating / got married? Did you know how messy he was when you two were dating?


NextTime, sorry about your brother. That would be very difficult to deal with. I see a little of that in my step-daughter. Too much anal-clenching going on, for sure.

We moved in together when we got married, but I spent time at his house before that. He wasn't neat, but certainly appeared to try. More than anything, he just seemed overwhelmed with the responsibilities of single-parenting with four kids, but never seemed like he didn't care. He had even commented once on the poor house-keeping efforts of a friend, so he wasn't oblivious.



committed4ever said:


> To the OP:
> 
> Just curious, how do you see this ending up? You have been married 20 years, will you just be able to live with it or are you fed up and cannot take it anymore? For me personally the day I dont want to have sex with my H for any reason is the day that my marriage is on its way to the end. No sex to me means we are no longer one. Of course you have been married twice as long as I have but I sure do hope I feel the same way I that I feel now when I get where you are.


I don't know yet. I want to make the right decision. It's very scary to think that it's really all me and I would throw away a perfectly good husband and destroy my son's family because I couldn't see my own flaws. On the other hand, I feel a little like I'm going crazy. The other perspectives offered really help in giving me an objective view, and make me feel not-so-crazy afterall, even when it's different.



firebelly1 said:


> So what I'm reading is that you don't feel like having sex with him because he won't do the thing that would make you feel loved - which is at least keep the common areas of the house clean to your standard of "clean."
> 
> On the one hand, I get it. I like having a neat home - to my standard of "neatness". I resent people in my house (i.e. my kids) leaving wrappers everywhere, etc. On the other hand, I have been on the receiving end of someone who didn't feel that I met his standard. My stbxh was constantly getting irritated with me for not meeting his neatness standard and I knew I was never going to be able to comply. I just had other priorities. But it wasn't personal. I wasn't doing it because I didn't love him - I did it because I was okay with my level of neatness and complying with his level of neatness felt burdensome to me. If I had to comply, I would have resented it because it would have meant time taken away from other things I would rather be doing. And I resented his constant, angry reminders because it made me feel like a child. So then there was a part of me that WANTED to rebel. That sounds like a bit of what is going on with your husband. Passive aggressiveness.
> 
> Then there is a part of me that feels like your anger is a lot of energy to put into something that in the grand scheme of life and death is just so minor. You have an unhappy marriage not because your husband is cheating, abusing, or lying to you, but because he won't pick up his socks. And you are not getting to enjoy sex in your life because you think of it as a reward or punishment for him. Sad.


I really appreciate your candid honesty, Firebelly. What you described is pretty much how I imagine my H really feeling, though he would never admit to that. In fact, there's few people I know that would admit it, that essentially they don't give a [email protected] about their partner's stated need/request, that they're never going to comply because they simply have other priorities. That sort of relationship would never work for me, though I've read it does for some.

I am very curious about one thing, though. In light of how you described your approach to your relationship with your stbxh, why would you interpret my disinterest in sex with my H as a "punishment?" I would think you'd see it as _"My [H is] constantly getting irritated with me for not meeting his [need for sex] and I know I'm never going to be able to comply. I just have other priorities. But it isn't personal. I'm not doing it because I don't love him - it's because I'm okay with [the amount of sex I'm getting] and complying with his [additional need for sex] feels burdensome to me. If I have to comply, I will resent it because it would mean time taken away from other things I would rather be doing. "_ I don't want to get off on another topic, I'm really trying to keep this localized to the lack of responsiveness to my request for tidiness. But do you honestly think for a minute that he's any more responsive to my sexual needs than he is to my cleanliness needs? Let me answer for you: the same, "Oh, I forgot, just remind me" line has been used during sex, too, as recent as 24 hours later. It might just be me, but by the time I get done instructing yet again, I'd rather just take care of myself. Yes, there are issues in other areas, I already acknowledged that, and sex is obviously one of them, but I'm not looking for any perspective on that issue, okay? BTDT.

Now I will admit I'm curious if the people that defended his lack of responsiveness regarding my request for tidiness would respond the same way regarding his lack of responsiveness to my sexual satisfaction.....


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## firebelly1 (Jul 9, 2013)

DaytoDay said:


> I think that's a great way to handle the kids' things. I couldn't very well toss out all of H's laundry and say I didn't think it was important. And if I tossed the paperwork, I'd be throwing out important things like tax returns. One of the counselors suggested that the person that was better at something should be the person responsible for the chore. Unfortunately, H would agree that that would mean I would be responsible for pretty much everything. H would be responsible for bringing home the lowest golf score, a winning softball game, the record for the most social activities, and remembering important information, like ex-gf's birthdays.
> 
> 
> NextTime, sorry about your brother. That would be very difficult to deal with. I see a little of that in my step-daughter. Too much anal-clenching going on, for sure.
> ...


I'm a little confused - do you not want to have sex with him because you have other priorities or you do want to have sex with him but he isn't listening to what you want from it?

I was wrong for using the word "punishment." My impression from the beginning is that your husband seems to want more sex from you but you resent him asking because he isn't willing to give you what you want. And I get that - I think a lot of women feel the same way. But I hadn't heard until now that you have sexual desires your husband isn't fulfilling either. 

I don't mean to dismiss your feelings. I know this is bigger than socks. It's about your husband being considerate of you and taking your feelings into account and you want to be married to someone who is considerate and not passive aggressive. 

I think you're in a situation where you are both resenting the other. You resent him for not picking up and he resents you for "nagging" him about it. Both of you think you're right and the other one is being an a$$hole. 

You can't control your husband but you can control the way you approach him and it sounds like the way in which you approach him may be making him dig in his heels even more. I understand why - you are understandably frustrated - but it still doesn't help. It might help to really try to understand his side of things, and he'll only be willing to tell you what that is if you don't punish him emotionally for whatever he might say.


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## Nikita2270 (Mar 22, 2014)

> Nikita, thanks for your reply. It's definitely nice to know that it's unacceptable to some other people as well. And I completely relate to the "high-stress" environment. I've told him from early on that I can't relax in chaos. I'm visual and he's audio(?), and I've tried to relate the messy environment for me to him hearing a song played that was riddled with bad notes. I can't even count the number of things I've done out of my norm because it was important to him, but he acts like my requests are just too much to ask of him, and they aren't important anyway so why bother.


I should have clarified that I didn't just divorce my ex because of his mess. It was a major contributing factor but there were lots of other things.

I think you have to assess this in the context of everything else he does and figure out whether this thread of behavior is continued throughout your marriage.

I truly sympathize with you because I still have a little post-marriage PTSD whenever I remember the sinking feeling I'd get walking into my marital house and seeing the mess every day. It was just very stressful to deal with. I got to the point where I wouldn't bother bringing it up because then I'd have to deal with, not only the stress of cleaning up after him but also the stress of asking him to make an effort at cleaning. It just wasn't worth bothering with, so I sucked it up and did it myself. But it made me extremely intolerant to his presence. In fact, I would rarely speak to my ex at all and my bedroom door was locked the last 3 years of our marriage. Its impossible to be with someone who disrespects you enough to make your life nothing but additional work because they're a slob.

If he ever bugged me for sex...I'd say "no thanks, I have enough unpleasant chores to do"

When I walk into the house after work now, I always do it with a little sigh of "thank goodness I'm divorced."


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## committed4ever (Nov 13, 2012)

DaytoDay said:


> Now I will admit I'm curious if the people that defended his lack of responsiveness regarding my request for tidiness would respond the same way regarding his lack of responsiveness to my sexual satisfaction.....


I didn't defend your H but I would look at it like this: sex to me is the most fulfilling form of intimacy that a married couple can engage in. Unless there are health reasons if you are going to continue in marriage you should be having sex regularly. However sexual satisfaction must be mutually agreed upon. For example if you need a 3rd party involved to be satisfied then I could never satisfy him. I will however meet his sexual NEEDS but maybe not all of his wants. And he should do the same for me.


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## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

firebelly1 said:


> I'm a little confused - do you not want to have sex with him because you have other priorities or you do want to have sex with him but he isn't listening to what you want from it?


Yes.  His lack of making my needs a priority means his needs are not my priority, AND, the added bonus of it not being satisfying for me means I definitely have other things I would prefer to do.



firebelly1 said:


> I think you're in a situation where you are both resenting the other. You resent him for not picking up and he resents you for "nagging" him about it. Both of you think you're right and the other one is being an a$$hole.
> 
> You can't control your husband but you can control the way you approach him and it sounds like the way in which you approach him may be making him dig in his heels even more. I understand why - you are understandably frustrated - but it still doesn't help. It might help to really try to understand his side of things, and he'll only be willing to tell you what that is if you don't punish him emotionally for whatever he might say.


 Honestly, I don't think he resents me for "nagging" him, because I don't think he thinks I am. I'm the one that feels like I am. He's actually asked me to continue asking him. He's much more like FrenchFry described herself. I don't believe he's digging his heels in either, but rather that he's completely clueless. Not legitimately, because he has been informed, he doesn't care to hang onto it.

Nikita, I TOTALLY relate to what you wrote here:


Nikita2270 said:


> I still have a little post-marriage PTSD whenever I remember the sinking feeling I'd get walking into my marital house and seeing the mess every day. It was just very stressful to deal with. I got to the point where I wouldn't bother bringing it up because then I'd have to deal with, not only the stress of cleaning up after him but also the stress of asking him to make an effort at cleaning. It just wasn't worth bothering with, so I sucked it up and did it myself. But it made me extremely intolerant to his presence. In fact, I would rarely speak to my ex at all and my bedroom door was locked the last 3 years of our marriage. Its impossible to be with someone who disrespects you enough to make your life nothing but additional work because they're a slob.


I wish I could reconcile that with the suggestions to just ignore or work-around it, and everything will be just fine. But I can't. I might be able to work around it, but things will NOT be fine.


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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

DaytoDay said:


> I wish I could reconcile that with the suggestions to just ignore or work-around it, and everything will be just fine. But I can't. I might be able to work around it, but things will NOT be fine.


Well, I guess that's it in a nutshell. But you kinda knew that already. The only perspective you have to look at is yours only. I'd hate to think you'd quietly seethe over this the rest of your marriage.

And that's what we're talking about, correct? Your marriage. Your life. How we all choose to pursue our own happiness is paramount to having a fulfilling life.

Normally, I'd not advise divorce over something that "I" think is fixable. But I'm not you. I am watching you become more and more distraught over this. That's no way to live, my friend. You say this isn't fixable. That's pretty much the end, wouldn't you say?


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

Uggg.....I get you. 

My husband is a slob.

I am a neat freak bordering on OCD.

2nd marriage - downsized into a small space.

He has one space (mancave) where he can keep it messy & hoard & I don't say a word....anymore. I used to nag, go in & clean it for him, etc. but he dug his heels in, made it messier, more hoarding, etc. 

He knows how much it bothers me but doesn't care because it brings him comfort to be surrounded by a mess. Maybe he grew up in a messy home & liked it. IDK & am not going to waste my time ruminating about it.

However, I do not let him create messes & hoards in other rooms. I don't nag, I simply move his crap into his mancave & shut the door.

I think most messy people like it that way so to reduce fights, they need at least one room/space to mess up!


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## firebelly1 (Jul 9, 2013)

DaytoDay said:


> Honestly, I don't think he resents me for "nagging" him, because I don't think he thinks I am. I'm the one that feels like I am. He's actually asked me to continue asking him. He's much more like FrenchFry described herself. I don't believe he's digging his heels in either, but rather that he's completely clueless. Not legitimately, because he has been informed, he doesn't care to hang onto it.


All the things I told you about how I felt about my stbxh nagging me about my neatness - I never told him how I really felt. I played along and tried to look like I was making an effort. I don't think your husband is clueless, but you do know him better than me.


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## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

Soooo.....

After some inane, crazy, fruitless discussion with my H regarding our relationship this morning, I asked him for a legal S or D. This wasn't a rash decision, I'm actually eerily calm. At first he went through some mild resistance, making all the standard promises he's made a hundred times before, claiming he wanted to make this M work but offering no productive suggestions of how that would happen, at one point becoming belligerent. I just remained consistent and calm, and eventually he agreed. Then, oddly, immediately after agreeing that it was probably for the best, he asked if I knew where the receipt was for an $11 jacket he bought last week because he wanted to return it. I interpreted that as he either wasn't taking me seriously, or that I was clearly stressing a whole lot more over the pending demise of our M than he was.

I pointed out that I thought the reaction was odd, but that I wasn't mad about it, that I was actually glad that he seemed to be taking it so well. I have no desire to be mean or vindictive and only wish him well. His response to that seemed to lean more toward that he wasn't taking me seriously. He put up some more resistance then, we talked a bit longer, he got a bit belligerent again, but I continued to stay calm and focused.

We ended with some detailed discussion about the separation of assets, custody, finances, etc. and I'm sorry to say that we had a more productive and amiable discussion regarding the demise of our M than we ever had about our reconciliation. It's possible he'll turn and get ugly again. He did that a number of years ago when I had hired an attorney to draw up a legal S. At first he was agreeable but then started threatening to get ugly. Our son was younger then and I didn't want to put him through it, plus I believed his promises then. But he's older now and I'm in a better position, so his threats now wouldn't mean much to me, plus I don't believe his promises anymore. I hope he doesn't go that route again, but if he does, I'm ready.

I'm incredibly at peace about this. Perhaps I'll be different tomorrow, or when we start filing paperwork, or when he starts moving out. I'm not happy about the failure of my M, but when I evaluate the day-to-day interactions, I'm hard-pressed to find something to fight for. Instead, I'm almost giddy as I review the [email protected] I won't have to deal with anymore. I have to keep my feet on the ground, as I know this will take a bit of time, but I find I'm just itching to rent a u-haul and get his piles of [email protected] out of here. Obviously, he has to find some place to go first.

Thanks for everyone's help. I wouldn't describe this as the straw that broke the camel's back or the epiphany that changed everything. I think I just ran out of steam. I just want something better out of my life and no one is going to do that for me except me, so I'm finally acting upon it. It's not the way I would have preferred, but I expect better things in the future regardless.

Anyway, thank you all for being a sounding-board for me. ((hugs))


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## Nikita2270 (Mar 22, 2014)

DayToDay:

You have my best wishes. Divorce is tough while you're going through it but I'm finding that every month gets better and better.

Your stbx will probably have a lot of ups and downs. My ex threatened me with everything in the beginning and tried hard legally to make it come true but I stood firm, never stooped to his level, concentrated on transitioning my children...and I can honestly say that divorce has been wonderful for me and my children.

I'm happy every single day...they're happy every single day.

I own my home...my own car...I have my own savings and retirement accounts and its an amazing wonderful feeling. I've done really, really well in my career since I got separated...mostly since I can concentrate at work and really commit to my job.

Everything is better. And interestingly enough, I had almost decided to remain single because I tried dating for about 6 weeks after separation and there was no one even close to what I found acceptable. Then, suddenly I met the man of my dreams. 4 years later, I still don't believe how perfect he is.

You only get one life. Just one...and the one thing you can't get back is time....so don't waste a moment of it being unhappy and unsatisfied. Its sooooo not worth it.

I don't know your husband but based on what you've said, I think you're probably making the right choice. You have my very best wishes!!


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