# most likely a failed R attempt



## QBall_1981

deleted


----------



## Shaggy

So you asked her for more transparency and she got defensive and angry, I bet she even called you controlling too?


----------



## QBall_1981

deleted


----------



## harrybrown

Has she been honest about no contact with the OM?


----------



## cdbaker

She has to be willing to sacrifice her privacy for at least a while in order to rebuild trust. Simply asking for another chance while demanding full trust without taking any measures to earn it is unreasonable. Of course, those things should have happened before she moved back in (for your kids sake if nothing else). Because that didn't happen, I would suggest that you consider asking her to not move out until she is positive that it is permanent. Back and forth change is awful for the kids.

With that said, you'll still have to find a way to ultimately forgive her if you want to save the marriage. There comes a time when you have to look at the situation, look at the steps she has taken to rebuild trust, and simply decide that you are willing to open yourself up to her again, to be completely vulnerable again. If you can't do that, then the marriage is truly doomed. Again, that is all IF she wants to save it too AND she is willing to take some steps to rebuild your trust, not just demand it.


----------



## QBall_1981

deleted


----------



## thompkevin

Well, I guess you are right with your decision of trying marriage counseling for the sake of trying to make it work. Although, I am pretty sure in the end, it's not going to work out. She definitely doesn't seem ready to help build trust again and perhaps she is still having the EA.


----------



## biola

You have to start playing hardball.You gave her chance to come clean and start afresh,instead she gaslights you and un-coperative at everyturn.I suspect she is still knee-deep in the EA and only came home when the OM cooled off the affair a little bit.She is not connected to you emotionally because the OM is filling her lovetank up. You have to find a way to cut off that toxic supply! Give an ultimatum.Cooly state the requirements for reconciliation which include no contact with OM,giving up passwords to social networks,re-engaing emotionally e.t.c.If she balks at these,then try reaching the OM's girlfriend if he has any.If she still refuses then you have no other choice but to file in order to shock her out of the fog. If after all these she choose not re-engage in the relationship,then you know the marriage is as good as dead!Good luck!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hibiscus

R is a long long process with a lot of ups and downs.

My partner reacted the same way as your wife when I use to question his whereabouts and R was not possible at that stage. He didn't like being "watched". But that's because I didn't trust him. He didn't understand that he needed to be transparent to help me heal.We fought a lot during this period and broke up many times. It was chaotic.

But he changed his tune after five months because I told him that I had enough and I wanted to move on without him. That's when he really put the effort in to help me heal and learn to trust him again.That's when the real R began. 

A year later we are in a really good place together. I will never trust him 100% but I have learnt to forgive him and I trust myself that I will pull through if he ever hurts me again.


----------



## cdbaker

Couldn't agree with Biola more. Well put.

From what I have read here, I feel really very confident that she is either still in the EA, in a new one, or at the very least is holding out hope for the OM still. This is how a wife that isn't committed but trying to pretend she is handles this sort of situation. Maybe she isn't actually doing anything wrong right now and is hiding nothing, but her vehement defense of her privacy, which she knows was the tool that allowed her adultery to take place and that which hurt you so terribly, indicates that she is MORE committed to maintaining that mechanism than she is to you and helping you heal. So either way, whether she is still in contact with the OM in some form or not, she is not fully committed.

I think it's a good sign that she suggested MC, though spouses who are not committed often have no problem with MC as it can buy time for them to figure out what they want. They are there in body only, not in mind. Your statement, "I'm going to MC because i need to be able to say in a years to come that i tried the best i can" actually makes it sound like this could apply to you. You seriously just have to decide if you want the R, otherwise if you are just half-assing it in MC, then you are only ensuring divorce. Because if she is anything less than 100% committed (which she clearly isn't 100%) then she too might be looking at MC as the last chance, and if you aren't really showing up, then she can write it off as unsalvageable. Honestly if you aren't 100%, then you really won't be able to say in future years that you "tried the best you can."

I will add, if I haven't already, that in cases of trying to rebuild trust after adultery, certainly there must be a period complete openness on the part of the guilty with virtually no right to privacy. Ultimately however, the victim must forgive, must be willing to be vulnerable again, and give back the trust/appropriate privacy. C.S. Lewis said, "To love at all is to be vulnerable" and it's totally true. If YOU can't reach that point, then her actions/commitment won't really matter anyway.


----------



## QBall_1981

deleted


----------



## cdbaker

So did she lie about meeting up with the OM and both sets of kids at the carnival this weekend, or did it just not come up until recently? Had you previously told her that her having any contact with the OM for any reason is an absolute deal breaker for you? (If so, and she saw him again, well....) I'll assume that it wasn't just coincidental and that they didn't just "run into each other" at the carnival.

It is unfortunate that his wife passed, but she needs reminded of the decision she makes by signing up to be his shoulder to cry on. The kid's birthday part sucks too, big time, but still not her responsibility.

My mentor once told me, as it relates to trying to save your marriage, that you have to not only give 100% of yourself to saving it, but you can't even consider any alternative. If you have a back-up plan in mind of any kind, that is one foot out the door. Once you have that, it is only a matter of time before you walk on through it.


----------



## QBall_1981

deleted


----------



## QBall_1981

deleted


----------



## cdbaker

Maybe I am missing some elements here but I had forgotten that she moved out. I take it she still had her apartment from weeks earlier when she moved back in with you? Do you believe she is still in contact with the OM?

If she is still involved with the OM, then MC is a waste of time. Going 180 with her will cause her to initially react desperately to try to satisfy you in some way, while tightening her grip on the OM relationship, whatever it may be. Continued 180 will cause her to move even closer to the OM as she feels that she is losing her stability. Either way, she'll have to see for herself how that plays out before she accepts the situation and can pause to see her own role in how it got to that point. That's my feeling anyway.

It sounds like she struggles to be vulnerable. Perhaps there is some betrayal or abuse of some kind in her past? Someone who struggles that way will likely have to feel 110% secure at all times, relationally, financially, emotionally, etc. So if things start to look less than 110% awesome between herself and her spouse, she'll instinctively, preemptively feel a need to seek out a lifeline. She might not even have any designs for the OM, she'll probably still be more or less devoted to her husband, but to feel vulnerable is terrifying, so she'll string the OM along to keep him ready in case she needs rescue.

Again, just my perception...


----------



## QBall_1981

deleted


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

I think your wife is having a PA with this OM. They work together and she has met up with him socially outside of work. How many times on top of the one time you know of did she meet him alone? There is no doubt in my mind - she's having sex with him.

I think you are being a little too passive in this situation and need to make her truly suffer the consequences for her actions.


----------



## cdbaker

Is she willing to cut off contact and quit her job? Ultimately she has to be willing to commit to those steps before any improvement in the marriage can take place. I will say that if she isn't ready to yet, that doesn't mean you have to call a divorce attorney unless that is what you want and are prepared for. In my case, My wife had several affairs in short succession and then moved out and in with the last guy when she was caught. That began a 3-year period of our being separated where she was in a relationship with the OM for nearly two years until he was arrested for sexually pursuing a 13 year old girl over the course of six months. He's still in prison. I never gave up on her because I knew I'd screwed up horribly in the marriage and led her to be vulnerable. Because of that, I decided I owed it to her to try to fix my issues, be supportive, and then see if she wanted to give us another chance, which she eventually did. 

Of course, neither of you feel that you share a ton of responsibility for all of this happening, and it's mostly her failure, then you might not feel like you owe her the opportunity of letting her adultery run it's course. I couldn't blame you either way. If you don't feel that way, and she directly states that she is unwilling to cut off contact with the OM and fully recommit herself to salvaging the marriage, then I think you need to make it clear that her position will mean the end of the marriage. Remember, if she does agree to do what it takes, she'll likely be committing to something that goes against every element of her being, allowing herself to commit to an already very unstable relationship, thus being more vulnerable than ever before without a back-up plan. So if she can agree to it, that would be a big deal indeed.


----------



## QBall_1981

deleted


----------



## cdbaker

Wow, so no commitment at all to end contact with the other man? Wow, I am sorry to hear that. She is clearly stringing you both along as best as she can. Time to at least start the process of moving on. If she changes her tune en route, then maybe you can reconsider then. She is simply deluding herself at this point.


----------



## QBall_1981

deleted


----------



## cdbaker

Good call, and good for you for still sticking with it. I'm really surprised that the MC hasn't made it crystal clear to her that she has to end all contact with the OM in order for anything to move forward here in a positive direction. What has been the MC's position on all this?


----------



## harrybrown

She is in a fog and still with the OM. If she will not quit working with him and really work marriage counseling, she is not respecting you at all. I do not know if she would wake up with the divorce papers, but you are trying and she is not. Three people in a marriage do not work. It takes two trying very hard to make marriage work. I would send her the divorce papers.


----------



## QBall_1981

deleted


----------



## cdbaker

Who knows why it is. Maybe she was thinking of you and using it as an excuse to message you out of hope it might spur a chat. Maybe she came across something that reminded her of your youngest. More likely it just popped into her mind.

Good to hear she scheduled the appointment. You might consider contacting the therapist between now and then letting him/her know that she is still seeing the OM on a regular basis, and that this is a deal breaker for you.


----------



## QBall_1981

deleted


----------



## cdbaker

The therapist is probably wise enough to know that cheaters will go to great lengths to explain away their behavior, and a big part of that includes downplaying the relationship, their time together, the nature of their communication/relationship, etc. The fact is that if adultery has taken place, the only possible solution is to 100% end contact, period. If the MC starts saying things like, "Well, she's agreed to no more private conversation. Only work talk. No more time alone together at work or outside of work... etc. etc. etc." then you need to fire the MC. There can be no contact of any kind. She really just needs to find a new job, or a new husband, I think that's what it all comes down to.


----------



## chazmataz3

thinking of you. how are things?


----------



## QBall_1981

deleted


----------



## QBall_1981

Just remembered that the MC was talking about moving through an R effort was a lot like clearing branches off a road. 

She did much better at explaining it, but i spent a few minutes googling to find the picture in my head.


----------



## QBall_1981

deleted


----------



## QBall_1981

deleted


----------



## cdbaker

QBall_1981 said:


> I don't understand how to deal with someone that being direct to only illicits anger and hate.


This is NORMAL. Have you read the Married Man's Sex Life Primer 2011 yet? All this time she has been the one in control. She's been lying to you, cheating on you, using you, etc. She knows full well that she can make you do anything she wants you do at the drop of a hat and get away with it. She knows she can lie and cheat and usually not get caught, and if she does get caught, she can talk, smile or maybe even sex her way out of trouble.

By being direct/firm with her about your position and not wavering, you upset her balance of power/control over the situation. You upset her ability to have what she wants on both side of the relationship line. You standing up for yourself, manning up and showing your alpha capabilities 100% equates to her losing her ability to have everything she wants. She has no fair, reasonable response against it either, so the natural reaction for a cheater in that situation is to default to anger. Anger because they are MAD! They don't want to lose that control, they want the ability to have their cake and eat it to, they want their security and their naughty fun, etc. etc. etc. You can't expect her to react reasonably when she is and has been behaving completely unreasonably.

So again, the way you ultimately combat this is to press forward with being firm/direct in your positions and not wavering from those. She'll get angry, then you'll see her soften up not long after as she calms down and begins resorting to tactics that have proven to break you down in the past. Like faking a bit of vulnerability/neediness that you jumped to her aid over, asking for your help with something, maybe crying a bit, or agreeing to more MC for a while, etc. These are tests to break you down, reaffirm her control over you, and you fail every time you give him.

I'm not saying you should never help your wife or try to comfort her when she expresses a need for it, I'm saying you really can't do those things right now while she is still free to violate your boundaries. Saying no to her will likely piss her off further and lead to more desperate tactics, but you ultimately have to remain firm or you will fail. She'll understandably be angry, as she has no other rational recourse, but in the long run she'll respect you and you at you in a new light. Remember, women need to know that their man is willing and able to stand up to them when necessary, to be confident in themselves, etc. Giving in to her might make her happy for a short while, but that "happiness" is just her version of handing a dog a treat and patting him on the head while she plans real respect for her next man.

So hold down your fort. Protect your kids. I'd tell her that you have to insist that your kids not be permitted to be around the OM until this is sorted out, and then I'd go sign them up for counseling as well. Firstly, they probably could benefit from it anyway given all the uncertainty in the home, but secondly the therapist could also provide an official 1st-hand professional opinion that the kids being around mommy's boyfriend while she is still married to daddy and making overtures of a reconciliation IS A BAD THING FOR THEM. Hopefully that could help her in agreeing with you, and if not, it is good testimony for the court room when you seek a fair custody share.


----------



## QBall_1981

deleted


----------



## cdbaker

A few thoughts...

First, I haven't seen you mention the OM for a while. I mean it sounds like he is still in the picture, but have you heard much about him lately? Where does the MC stand on that topic? Frankly, that aught to be the first and most important topic involved in MC. Ultimately, if she isn't willing to cut off contact with the OM, at least for a while, then she isn't committed to reconciliation and MC is worthless. She doesn't even have to say she'll never see him again, she just has to understand that if she can't end contact, then her marriage is doomed. If she ultimately decides that she wants to end the marriage, then obviously she'll be free to pursue whoever she likes, but he can't be involved right now in any way, period.

Second, have you exposed her affair yet? If she isn't willing to end contact with him, then I think it is time to expose them. Namely to friends and family. If you haven't already done so I mean. Ideally, it should have happened before you separated.

Third, it sounds like you are letting her have her cake and eat it too. If for no other reason than the OM still being allowed to be in the picture. I say "being allowed" because you are allowing it by not putting your foot down. On one hand, she is getting to invite herself over and stripping down, peeing in front of you, talking about shaving "everything", bringing you along for social activities with her family, etc.. These are things that happen between couples, not between a separated man and his adulterous wife. On the other hand, she is allowed to engage in an incredibly inappropriate relationship with another man, and live as she pleases with her own residence. Those are things a married person shouldn't be doing. She shouldn't be able to have both, and allowing it only causes her to respect you even less.

You're in a tough position though. If we assume the relationship with the OM is only an EA and not a PA, then it can be pretty darn difficult to convince someone that what they are doing is wrong. It can easily come across to that spouse as controlling/manipulative. The old, "You can't tell me who I can and cannot be friends with!" argument. I'm sure that even most professional counselors have difficulty in convincing someone of that. There are just so many people out there who really think that "As long as I don't kiss him, blow him or **** him, then I haven't done anything wrong."

If she can't be convinced, then you can try to salvage the troubled relationship still, but it's that much harder, depending on the degree of the EA. (Like is it just "inappropriate" or is she quietly lusting after him 24/7 but he hasn't yet given in to allowing it to be a full PA?) Maybe you don't give up right away, but ultimately, in the long run, she has to accept that EA's are wrong too. It doesn't sound like she has yet given up on the marriage. It does sound like she is quite comfortable the way it is right now however, which is just as bad in my mind. She gets the OM, she gets you, she gets the freedom/flexibility to do as she pleases, etc. So I do think you need to ramp up the pressure by putting your foot down a bit more.


Going the other direction for a moment... Do remember that some women like to look and dress sexier when they want to feel better about themselves, or even to reflect the fact that they already feel better about themselves. Lingerie can do wonders for her own self esteem too, even if no one else see's it. At the same time... is it at all possible that you are reading too much into this and maybe she is planning the lingerie for you?

Speaking of reading too much... stop snooping. At least into petty things like paypal purchases and such. It'll just drive you crazy and it won't help you with anything. Don't spend so much time trying to read into every little detail and figure out what is going on in her head, because you won't be able to figure it out and you wouldn't understand it even if you could. I have been in your shoes and I know how impossible that seems, to try to lay off on snooping and trying to figure this stuff out. Lord knows I wasn't able to do it, but looking back and remembering all my friends giving me that advice, I can now see that it was sound advice indeed.


----------



## QBall_1981

deleted


----------



## tom67

Well you can file for adultry in maryland at least. Go cold no more mc text only about the kids. Eh tell her parents you tried but you could only take so much.


----------



## tom67

Why don't you make one last ditch effort on facebook and tell them she is spending the weekend with him.


----------



## cdbaker

More exposure is usually never a bad thing, though I could see how in certain circumstances it could come off as creepy. I think the key is to go all out the first time. The difference here is if she is openly back on the R path and you both give it a shot for a while (which I think you have) and then you discover that the OM is still very much in the picture, then I think it is acceptable to do the exposure again. Because she is trying to present to you and others that she is wanting or at least trying an R, but behind the scenes she is not. So in your case, if she has been sharing with others that you and her are actively working on an R, and that the OM is a non-factor and that there is nothing going on with him anymore, then yes, I'd say discovering what you have is worth exposing.

Bad "exposure" would be showing the world what is going on, then continuing to try to update the world every other day on what she is doing. That comes off as creepy stalker-like, and makes you look like a controlling bastard.

The NC and nothing going on for the weekend, along with no response about doing something on the weekend, are all really bad signs of course. Yes I'd say it is time for full 180. No more MC until she is willing to make some genuine commitments, the most important of which must include absolutely zero contact with the OM, his kids, his mother, his home, etc. Honestly if that doesn't change anything in a week or two, I'd meet with a lawyer to pursue filing for divorce as the next step. Maybe that will wake her up, maybe it won't...


----------



## QBall_1981

deleted


----------



## QBall_1981

deleted


----------



## LongWalk

Sick that she keeps you hanging on while clearly sleeping with OM. What exactly happened to his wife?
That seems to have made him attractive. File for D and 180. Change your FB status.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## QBall_1981

deleted


----------



## LongWalk

She is just cake eating. Let her go. Tell her she should be happy and if he makes her happy, you won't stand in the way. After that cut communication to the kids. She seems to want emotional support from you. You cannot survive in that game.

Drugs are a plague


----------



## QBall_1981

I deleted my posts because I'm still managing to hurt the person I love. I deleted the posts because, while it was the way I felt a year ago, it isn't the way I've felt in a long time. 

I deleted the posts because my wife leaving wasn't her fault; it was my fault. I had an EA while married; while she was pregnant with our last child. 

The marriage is in shambles because of what I did; not what she did. 

She acted in the way any normal person would have acted when they found out that their husband wasn't faithful and he broke the most serious trust bond that they could have with another person.

I take ownership of the things I did, and understand that i'll live the rest of my life with the consequences of my inexcusable actions. It's me that abandoned her and none of her actions actually caused any of this.

To anyone that looks at this; just understand that the best advice I could give is that you need to talk to your partner about everything. If you value your marriage and the bond that you've worked so hard to forge, then you need to constantly re-honor that and be honest with yourself and your partner or you'll find that your mistakes make you (me) miserable for the rest of your life. Especially when you realize that they are decisions you'll live with until you die.


----------

