# To stay in a barely tolerable marriage for the kids' sake?



## Trepidation (Jan 5, 2012)

First, I think I must give some background story. Situations like these are usually immensely complicated, but hopefully I can give a good overview of where we’re at.

My wife and I started dating 11+ years ago. I was 22 at the time, and had only had two "serious" relationships prior to that (they both lasted a whopping 3 months). After about 6 months of dating, I was about ready to break up with her. While we had had some good times, more often than not, I preferred not to be with her. While I was waiting for the right time to break up with her (ok, procrastinating) she told me she was pregnant. Oof. It was pretty much the last thing I wanted to hear. I also immediately felt the need to do right by the baby. So I decided to try and make the relationship work. 

We survived her pregnancy (it was rough, we had 4 break-ups, but quickly got back together) and moved in together. At some point, we got engaged without a wedding date. I never proposed like a normal person would. We were just talking one night, and I made a comment about “if we get married” and she said “what do you mean ‘if’”? Fearing a total explosion if I said I still wasn’t sure I wanted to marry her (I most definitely didn’t want to marry her, but didn’t want to leave my daughter either) said “ok, ‘when’”. That’s how I got engaged. This happened during her pregnancy. About 1.5 years after starting to date, we were in Vegas, and decided to end the engagement and get married (alcohol wasn’t involved). Not exactly my finest series of decisions.

Since then, we have had what would overall be a rough marriage. There have been good times, and some truly awful times. Mostly though, our marriage has just gotten by. Tolerable is the best word I can think of to describe it. I have adopted her daughter (who’s now 16) and my biological daughter is now 10 years old. Not wanting to hurt them is the only reason I’ve lasted this long. Two years ago we came fairly close to getting a divorce (we had decided I should move out, I even got an apartment) but we were back together a few days later.

If it weren’t for the kids, I can say that I’d have left my wife many times, beginning 6 months after we started dating, and at 10s if not 100s of other times after that. I don’t think I’ve ever truly loved my wife, and if I did, it was a very long time ago. I am not happy at all with my marriage, I feel a need to try and find a partner I can truly love. I want true intimacy, someone who fits with my personality, and of course to have a good sex life (although tbh, _any_ sex life at this point would be an improvement). 

All that being said, I don’t want to make it sound like my wife makes me miserable either. She just doesn’t make me happy, and I think there’s a high probability I could be happier without her. Except, of course, a divorce would substantially subtract from my kids’ happiness, which could make me even unhappier than I am now. In thinking about this situation, I’ve created hypotheticals that I’ve thought about what I’d do. There are three I think that paint a good picture of how I feel:

1)	If we didn’t have kids I’d immediately file for divorce and leave. It’s not even a close decision.

2)	If we didn’t have kids and there wasn’t a chance I’d be able to find somebody else (say every other woman in existence was magically married or something), I’d have to think long and carefully about leaving. 

3)	In a scenario where we do have kids, but there aren’t any available women out there, it’s now a clear decision to stay. 

4)	And then of course, there’s the current situation. We have kids, but there are other available women out there. I’m still fairly young (33), professionally successful, attractive, and confident, and I feel pretty sure I could attract the type of woman I want. I know it could be a case of the grass being greener on the other side. But the grass on this side is just so brown, and the other side looks so green, I don’t see how it couldn’t be better.

I’ve read a lot of threads in this forum, and there are so many people out there who have much bigger problems in their marriages that I sometimes feel silly complaining about mine. There’s no abuse, addictions, money problems, or infidelity going on here. In fact, I must admit I sometimes wish my wife would cheat on me or really do something awful (to me, not the kids) so the decision could become clear. 

So, what am I looking for from this post? Any comments are welcome, as are questions asking me to clarify something. I’ve already dropped a wall of text on all of you fine people, but there’s so much to these things, that I could likely write thousands more words about what’s going on. But the real goal of this post is to elicit general feelings from you guys, about what you would do if you were in my shoes.

Also, while advice along the lines of “have you tried X?” to work on my marriage will be looked at fully, I’ll say that I feel at this point I’ve done about all I can do. We’ve been to marriage counseling, I’ve visited the marriage counselor solo to learn how to listen better, we’ve worked through two books together (His Needs, Her Needs and The Seven Levels of Intimacy: The Art of Loving and the Joy of Being Loved), and I’ve just finished reading a 3rd book (Contemplating Divorce) on my own. And there have been many, many, hours of frank discussion about our marriage and what we want out of the other person. Until the very end, I will continue to work on trying to make my marriage better, but I must admit I think it’s pretty hopeless.

I look forward to reading everyone’s thoughts, and thanks for reading.


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## heartsamess (Jan 6, 2012)

I read every word of that lengthy and well written post and it sounds relatively similar to my situation. 

Before I offer any advice, which should be taken with a large grain of salt, I'll give you the abbreviated version of where I am with my marriage.

My wife and I got married about 4 months after she told me she was pregnant. I knew at the time it was a mistake and that I wasn't in love, but like you, I felt it would be best for the baby. My son is now nearly 6 months old and I am drowning in depression from being in a loveless relationship. The stress of new parenthood on top of the knowledge that I'm not in love with my wife is beginning to decay my mental health. However, I am currently torn between fear of losing time with my child and being unhappy for the rest of my life while being with the wrong woman. To make matters a bit worse, she is relatively oblivious to how unhappy I am. She makes comments from time to time on how I'm 'acting distant' or 'quiet lately' but doesn't have a clue that I am considering leaving her.

I haven't reached a decision on what I will do in the long run, but today I spoke with a family law attorney.

Do you feel that your wife is just as unhappy as you? I think if mine was, separation would be an easier pill to swallow, much less an easier topic to bring up in the first place. From your post, it seems that at least both of you are on the same page regarding the quality of the marriage and the sincerity of your feelings for one another. I am beginning to understand that to be a good parent, you have to be happy... but that might be bullsh*t as someone who is just as miserable as I am fed me that line.

I'm sure this doesn't help much, but it's all I have for you at the moment.


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## Trepidation (Jan 5, 2012)

Thanks for the response and compliment Heart. Your post has brought up some other thoughts I'll share here, kind of in order as your post brought them up in my mind.

I've often reflected on if I should have left my marriage earlier, and I think the answer is probably 'no'. I have had some great moments with my kids as a result of staying, and I've been a positive influence on their lives. Would I still have had nearly as many good times with my kids if I had left 9+ years earlier? Would my kids be in as good of shape as they are now if I had left earlier? My gut says the answer to both questions is no. Of course, the question is how much of my happiness have I lost out on? I'll never know the answer to that, but I'm happy I've stayed this long. If I'm happy I've stayed this long, it seems to follow that I should stay longer, given that nothing material has changed recently. 

While I simply have a craving for something more, it appears your wife is actively making you miserable. If your mental health is really being decayed, you're probably best off getting out of the relationship. It sucks to know that doing so is going to lead to less time with your son, I can certainly empathize there. But if she's literally driving you crazy, then it's likely better to give your son 50% of a sane dad rather than 100% of one that's nucking futs. This is one of those situations that I almost wish was the case for me. At least if she was driving me crazy, the decision to leave would be clear. 

Of course, before you leave, I think you should talk to your wife and let her know how you feel. If there's anything at all she can do to make things better with you, she may do it. At the very least, a gentle (but clear!) heads-up as to what you're thinking and why could help soothe things post-divorce. You _may_ also want to disclose that you've consulted an attorney. If she finds that out as a surprise, I can't imagine the result being pretty. 

I think I can feel pretty safe saying that the last thing you want to do is look back at leaving and think that you didn't do everything possible to make sure it was the right move. You say she's the wrong woman for you, but what if even though she can't be the right woman for you, she can be a "sorta right" woman for you? What if things could then develop to the point where she's even "mostly right" for you? 

Oh wait, I was asking for advice in this thread, and now I'm spouting it. Ok then, back on track.

To answer your question, I think my wife is actually unhappier than I am. However, and this is a major issue I have with her, she tends to self-delude herself when the truth is unpleasant. She professes to love me, but all of her actions speak a different tune. I have told my wife that I don't love her anymore, so we are on the same page there. But we won't be totally on the same page until she can admit to herself how she feels about me. 

Honestly though, I'm going to take advantage of internet anonymity and reveal an ugly side of me. How she feels about me has little bearing on what I'll actually do. I'm concerned about how it'll affect the kids. I have no desire to unduly hurt my wife, but even if she was madly in love with me, and the kids weren't part of the picture, I would as gently as possible extract myself from the relationship. 

I don't know if you actually have to be happy to be a good parent or not. My wife has been depressed and miserable a lot of the time, and she's been largely at least a decent mother. I'm sure if she was happier she could have been a better parent, but even at her worst, she was still largely a good one. I think that even in spite of my crappy marriage, I've been happy almost always. So I can't comment from a personal perspective (and even if I could, my analysis of my own parenting would be likely be a bit biased).


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## accept (Dec 1, 2011)

*I’ve read a lot of threads in this forum, and there are so many people out there who have much bigger problems in their marriages that I sometimes feel silly complaining about mine.*
I cant agree with you. Your problems are really huge and no less than anyone else's. You have done the right things been to MC etc. What did they advise. I would never agree to staying in a marriage just for the kids sake. I think you should first make an exit plan. Speak to a lawyer etc. I dont think you have made one yet. Although you seem to have thought of everything else and analysed it.
Is your marriage like that. Women dont like it. You havent really said what she doesnt like about you.


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## BradP (Dec 13, 2011)

I completely understand your situation and am struggling with this decision too. I also have a post on here titled "Trouble asking for a divorce". I have a similar hangup as many of my fellow posters on this website -- to stay because of the kids or leave? I struggle with this 24-hours (well I guess not while I am sleeping or actively engaged in conversation with someone) a day! I am tired, frequently withdrawn, quiet -- not myself anymore. Is that a way to live, even for the sake of the kids? Am I doing more damage to them by staying than by leaving and giving them the real father -- perhaps showing them what a real relationship with love looks like (if I met a new woman)? And even though I am the one planning to seek divorce, I have to stop blaming myself for potentially "messing up the family". My situation is a little different -- I am not the one causing the problems (Although I know I have my own quirks). It is my wife who repeatedly explodes with anger, accuses me of infidelity constantly, and is generally a very negative person. I should not feel so bad for ending this relationship, but I do! I just can't bare to think what my kids will say, think, even the look on their faces when we tell them that we are seperating (my kids are 8, 11, and 18). Wow, what a struggle this is.


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## Trepidation (Jan 5, 2012)

accept said:


> *I’ve read a lot of threads in this forum, and there are so many people out there who have much bigger problems in their marriages that I sometimes feel silly complaining about mine.*
> I cant agree with you. Your problems are really huge and no less than anyone else's. You have done the right things been to MC etc. What did they advise. I would never agree to staying in a marriage just for the kids sake. I think you should first make an exit plan. Speak to a lawyer etc. I dont think you have made one yet. Although you seem to have thought of everything else and analysed it.
> Is your marriage like that. Women dont like it. You havent really said what she doesnt like about you.


We went to a MC about 4 years ago. While I got some minor advice from her, what ended up happening is that she wanted to schedule 1-on-1 therapy sessions with my wife, while she said things like my thought process was "really healthy". Going in for my own 1-on-1 session with the MC to learn how to actively listen was a result of my wife's own sessions with the MC, where she stated she didn't think I listened. I immediately incorporated the tools taught to me by the MC, but it doesn't seem to have done any good (or maybe it has, maybe we'd be caput right now if I hadn't gone/learned how to listen better). 

Regardless, I get the impresison you're asking what the MC has said about our situation as it stands currently. The answer is that we haven't been to MC recently enough for a proper answer there. That's something I intend to remedy, at the very least relating what I've written down in this thread to a MC myself. Besides potentially getting advice from people who were/are in my situation, I also made this thread to help get my thoughts in order, since I think I communicate much clearer writing than speaking. Too bad there aren't marriage counselors that operate via email or IM, haha. 

Can you further explain why you'd never stay in a marriage just for the kids' sake? For example, it seems that it could be worth sacrificing some happiness, if it'd make your kids a lot happier. It's more where do you draw the line? (I've done some thinking on this too with other hypotheticals, that I may get into in another post). 

I don't have a specific exit plan at this point, but since we nearly split two years ago, we do have an agreement on how we'd split finances, handle custody, and living arrangements in place, so the whole thing is not a mystery. My wife and I are committed to having as painless a divorce as possible should it come to that, and would likely either do all the filings ourselves, or potentially at worst go the mediation route. 

I am a very analytical person, and no, my wife isn't very fond of that. However, my analytical ability is something I take pride in, so the best I can do in that regard is try to keep my analysis to myself when possible. As for what she doesn't like about me, it may be too general to say that we just think differently about everything, but that's the simplest way to sum it all up. Thankfully, we often reach the same conclusion, albeit via different routes. It's when we don't reach the same conclusion that things can get ugly. I make a true effort to understand her position, and often times I can argue her side better than she can. Sometimes I see that she's correct, and then I change my mind (I enjoy being right, and I can't be right if I'm wrong, silly as that sounds to say). She gets so attached to her position that for her to do the same is unthinkable to her, and met with massive resistance. If I had to pick one thing, this would be it: we think about things totally different.


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## Trepidation (Jan 5, 2012)

delup said:


> I'm sure you'll be deluged with more calls for you to get out now, and that staying in a loveless marriage 'for the kids' only makes things worse for the kids. Probably decent advice, but I know I could never leave my loveless marriage while the kids are at home.
> 
> For me, I stay for purely selfish reasons, not duty. The thought of not seeing my 2 kids (13 & 10) on a daily basis is unthinkable. And while my wife is little more than someone who shares some household chores with me, bringing them up alone would be harder than continuing to live with someone who kind-of despises me a lot of the time. So I prefer the status quo for my own deluded pragmatic reasons (logistics, finances, chores, etc.)! Will the kids be worse off for growing up with an undercurrent tension, or with a single parent under less advantaged stressful circumstances? Neither are good, but with the former I get to be part of my kids' life.
> 
> But, unlike you I am crashing towards 50 and so do not really entertain any hopes of finding a decent loving relationship if we split. We've messed this up that is for sure, but I love being with my kids so much I would never leave.


Thanks for the post Delup. I can certainly appreciate the "Will the kids be worse off for growing up with an undercurrent tension, or with a single parent under less advantaged stressful circumstances? Neither are good, but with the former I get to be part of my kids' life." thought process in your post. 

I do have a couple questions for you if you don't mind: 

When your kids are grown and have left the house, what do you think you'll do then? 

You say you'll never leave, but that's given your current relationship (which is very similar to how mine is right now). What sort of changes in your wife and/or relationship would make it a 'no-brainer' to leave? At what point would things have to get to where you'd agonize over the decision?


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## Trepidation (Jan 5, 2012)

BradP said:


> I completely understand your situation and am struggling with this decision too. I also have a post on here titled "Trouble asking for a divorce". I have a similar hangup as many of my fellow posters on this website -- to stay because of the kids or leave? I struggle with this 24-hours (well I guess not while I am sleeping or actively engaged in conversation with someone) a day! I am tired, frequently withdrawn, quiet -- not myself anymore. Is that a way to live, even for the sake of the kids? Am I doing more damage to them by staying than by leaving and giving them the real father -- perhaps showing them what a real relationship with love looks like (if I met a new woman)? And even though I am the one planning to seek divorce, I have to stop blaming myself for potentially "messing up the family". My situation is a little different -- I am not the one causing the problems (Although I know I have my own quirks). It is my wife who repeatedly explodes with anger, accuses me of infidelity constantly, and is generally a very negative person. I should not feel so bad for ending this relationship, but I do! I just can't bare to think what my kids will say, think, even the look on their faces when we tell them that we are seperating (my kids are 8, 11, and 18). Wow, what a struggle this is.


Hey Brad,

I haven't read your thread yet, but will do so after I finish this reply. 

I think that when it's affecting you like say - basically making you a different person - that the decision definitely becomes clearer. Of course, that doesn't help at all to not feel like the bad guy in all of this, and just the thought of telling the kids something like this nearly brings tears to my eyes. What a struggle indeed.


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## accept (Dec 1, 2011)

*She gets so attached to her position that for her to do the same is unthinkable to her, and met with massive resistance. If I had to pick one thing, this would be it: we think about things totally different.*
Thanks.
I am not much different to you. My many posts here should tell you that. But my wife is like your wife. I have since learnt that for the sake of peace I have to give in to her 'massive' resistance. On many of my posts I provide instances of what I am up against. 
I sincerely believe that a marriage without sex is not a marriage. If women would only realise that, and not get the men to go 'elsewhere' there would be many less problems. I dont believe in giving up sex for the children or that women would like to bring up children alone. We just make it too easy for them.
I have also been to MC. I have put a problem to them and asked them to decide and be judge. They are not prepared to do that saying I, meaning we, have to work it out for ourselves. So of course I never got any further. With a woman who doesnt listen to reason one cant. If you can find my posts you will see many examples and believe me there are plenty more.


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