# groping your wife



## bilbag (Aug 3, 2016)

How much groping is too much? I see flesh and I can't help it. Nice legs when she wears shorts, her lower back when her shirt rises, her open shoulders, her neck, and so on. I would think it is normal to touch your wife. She disagrees. How does it work for your marriage? Should it be saved mainly for the bedroom, hands/lips off otherwise?


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## poida (Jan 17, 2014)

I suppose it is whatever she feels comfortable with. In your case, none.

Are you sure it isn't how you do it?

Try kissing on her neck and at the same time a very gentle squeeze. Perhaps she wants it to feel more intimate? 

Personally my wife loves the attention and very little is off limits, just not obvious in public which I assume you wouldn't be silly enough to do.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

I would be deeply disappointed if he didn't do it.


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

My DH does it all the time. I love it. I grope him a lot too. Was just groping him on the subway today lol. >


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

Lucky Mrs. bilbag.

Nothing overt in public; don't make other people uncomfortable being around you. I'm sure you've heard the "get a room" sentiment.

One thing I never liked was wanting his arms around me and a nice snuggle, and within 15 seconds one of my nipples was being pinched and two fingers were searching around in my undies.

That happened a lot when we were first together; and it wasn't much fun. Sometimes women do just want to be held for a couple of minutes.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

I'm not okay with anything that seems to convey the sentiment that I'm a tire the alpha dog is peeing on to mark his territory. My ex-husband was pretty bad about that. He once licked my chest - cleavage to earlobe - with the flat of his tongue, in full view of several of my family members at a holiday gathering. It wasn't affectionate or loving, it was a show of dominance that seemed intended to embarrass and humiliate me in a situation where I was basically powerless to do anything about it without causing even more of a scene. So, yeah, stay away from doing stuff like that.

Otherwise, a little fun, flirty, playful groping is just fine. If it's not okay with your wife, OP, then scale it way back to something she is comfortable with. At the same time, it would probably be a good idea to take an honest inventory of the relationship as a whole. Many women dislike being touched in those ways if the relationship isn't good. If she doesn't feel emotionally intimate with you, she's less likely to be interested in sexual groping - or sex, for that matter. So it might be past time for a calm, honest, conversation about whether or not each of you is getting your needs met within the relationship. The book _His Needs, Her Needs _by Willard Harley might be helpful to both of you in sorting out each of your needs and helping you learn to meet them for one another.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

If it feels like groping to her, then the correct amount is zero. No matter how much she turns you on. You want her to see it as a compliment. That is not how she actually sees it. Too bad for you. Stop trying to convince her to see it your way. You will never succeed and you will only create bad feelings on her side. Not what you claim to want.

Find ways of expressing your desire that work for HER. If you can't, then keep your horniness and turned-on-ness to yourself.

You need to find ways to get her to want you to touch her. Because it feels good. Because she wants reassurance that you are still into her. If you constantly scurry between her feet and yap at her and try to hump her leg, she will become annoyed with you. She won't welcome your touch, she will shrink form it. And she won't need any reassurance that you are still into her, because you don't give her any time to forget your latest relentless reminder.

My advice: back off.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Groping? None. Fondling? Lots!!! It goes both ways. If I'm not touching/fondling her, she'd think something is wrong - and vice versa. We do tone it down in public, of course!


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## dubsey (Feb 21, 2013)

discretely in public, perpetually at home


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Rowan said:


> I'm not okay with anything that seems to *convey the sentiment that I'm a tire the alpha dog is peeing on to mark his territory*. My ex-husband was pretty bad about that. He once licked my chest - cleavage to earlobe - with the flat of his tongue, in full view of several of my family members at a holiday gathering. It wasn't affectionate or loving, it was a show of dominance that seemed intended to embarrass and humiliate me in a situation where I was basically powerless to do anything about it without causing even more of a scene. So, yeah, stay away from doing stuff like that.
> 
> Otherwise, a little fun, flirty, playful groping is just fine. If it's not okay with your wife, OP, then scale it way back to something she is comfortable with. At the same time, it would probably be a good idea to take an honest inventory of the relationship as a whole. Many women dislike being touched in those ways if the relationship isn't good. If she doesn't feel emotionally intimate with you, she's less likely to be interested in sexual groping - or sex, for that matter. So it might be past time for a calm, honest, conversation about whether or not each of you is getting your needs met within the relationship. The book _His Needs, Her Needs _by Willard Harley might be helpful to both of you in sorting out each of your needs and helping you learn to meet them for one another.




This exactly! Particularly the bolded, which may be why your affectionate touching feels like groping to your wife.

It doesn't matter what any other woman would be comfortable with. The only thing that matters is how your wife *percieves* your affection.
And this seems to be a nuance men might not be aware of resulting in confusion.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

bilbag said:


> How much groping is too much? I see flesh and I can't help it. Nice legs when she wears shorts, her lower back when her shirt rises, her open shoulders, her neck, and so on. *I would think it is normal to touch your wife. She disagrees.* How does it work for your marriage? Should it be saved mainly for the bedroom, hands/lips off otherwise?


My wife is the exact same way, and you do have to be careful as this is a strong indication that she feels like you care more about her as a sex object than a person.

Nonetheless, I grope my wife ALL THE TIME! But instead of her getting upset, I usually try to make sure I get a good smile and laugh out of her. If she complains, I take this as an opportunity to compliment her beauty and say that the dark magical love spell she put on me in college, well that she must have used one that was way too strong and that is NOT my fault! I then pretend to get upset and tell her to not make her boobies so darn beautiful and that I need her to be my friend and NOT just someone who keeps slamming her boobs right all up in my face every time I try to have a civilized conversation her. I then say, "stop it" and then let out a big upset sigh and say, "now I've got an erection, you know that makes my day hard on me!" ....at this point she will push me away AND flash me at the same time!

If you are going to do it, be super playful about it, and STOP if she is getting upset. Cause that means you are being annoying instead of funny. Buy her some flowers and include a card. Write on the card, 



> I love you and got you these flowers so that you will let me grab your butt! Unfortunately I could not wait to grab your butt and that part is out of the way, so these are now just for the "I love you" part!


Cheers, 
Badsanta


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

bilbag said:


> How much groping is too much? I see flesh and I can't help it.


Umm...yes, you _can_! You probably wouldn't grope her in front of your boss. And you probably wouldn't grope some scantily clad babe on a beach, no matter HOW much skin was exposed. So yes, you DO have self-control, but for some reason, you don't seem to believe that you "should" have to exercise it around your wife. 

Your wife is married to you, but that does NOT mean that you get to have access to her body whenever and HOWEVER you please. She's still the "owner" of her body, and SHE still gets the final word in how it's treated, even by _you_. 



> I would think it is normal to touch your wife


. 

You're not "touching" your wife; you're _groping_ your wife. Would you like it if your wife punched you in the face and then said, "I LIKE 'touching' you!"? Same principle. There's "touching" and then there's TOUCHING. All "touching" is obviously _not_ the same. 



> She disagrees. How does it work for your marriage


? 

My late husband used to grope me at home and in public he used to slap me on the azz. He got away with the latter twice, also telling me that he "couldn't help it". The third time I yelled at him (in public). He later told me that I "humiliated" him. I told him that he humiliated _me_, and that I asked him NICELY _twice_ not to do that, but he ignored me. As long as he continued to do that in public, I would continue to scream at him in public.

Funny. He _magically_ stopped. 



> Should it be saved mainly for the bedroom, hands/lips off otherwise


Not necessarily, but use _wisely_. A quick kiss as you pass each other in the hallway...holding hands or putting your arm around her in public...a hug in the kitchen (limit your 'roaming hands', lol!), having her drape her legs over yours while watching t.v., all perfectly acceptable...as long as all this touching doesn't ALWAYS lead to sex! 

Just a quick cautionary note...

Groping _can_ lead to a wife becoming LD.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> Groping? None. Fondling? Lots!!! It goes both ways. If I'm not touching/fondling her, she'd think something is wrong - and vice versa. We do tone it down in public, of course!


I think there is a lot of overlap in some people's minds between fondling and groping. Can you clarify where you feel the distinction is made?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

bilbag said:


> How much groping is too much? I see flesh and I can't help it. Nice legs when she wears shorts, her lower back when her shirt rises, her open shoulders, her neck, and so on. I would think it is normal to touch your wife. She disagrees. How does it work for your marriage? Should it be saved mainly for the bedroom, hands/lips off otherwise?


What is the rest of your relationship like?

This sort of a complain it usually due to the woman feeling like the only thing you are interested in is sex. You have no interest in her as a person.

How many hours a week do the two of you spend together doing date-like things, just the two of you? What sort of things do you do together?


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## Lurkster (Feb 8, 2016)

No doubt varies, like everything else!

The Lurksters, are equal opportunity gropers. We both find it especially fun, when we can steal a feel while the other is busy, or defenseless! 

>


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> What is the rest of your relationship like?
> 
> This sort of a complain it usually due to the woman feeling like the only thing you are interested in is sex. You have no interest in her as a person.
> 
> How many hours a week do the two of you spend together doing date-like things, just the two of you? What sort of things do you do together?


This a typical wife response.

It is not a "wrong" response....but is one that saddens me and would cause me to pull back...why bother if everything is over-analyzed and immediately points to the "all you want is sex" response.

Men like sex...sex to men *is* communication....that is one "major" way that they [men] express their love.

You know this.....it has been spelled out in TAM postings, ad nauseum.

But, the mindset persists.....and *here* of all places.

Answer?

Don't go there....unless you truly believe your SO is a horny *DOG* and not a physically passionate *MAN*.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> I think there is a lot of overlap in some people's minds between fondling and groping. Can you clarify where you feel the distinction is made?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is a word that would be used to describe what someone might attempt to do on the subway.

"2.
informal
feel or fondle (someone) for sexual pleasure, especially against their will.
"he was accused of groping office girls""

That is how it comes off to me anyway.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> This is a word that would be used to describe what someone might attempt to do on the subway.
> 
> "2.
> informal
> ...


So essentially it comes down to how it's received by the grope-ee.

So OP should not grope nor fondle because it's basically the same.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

On this topic over the past 2 weeks, I've been touched a lot. Mostly at Home but a little outside. I love it. It is sending me a love message. Not a Sex message. But then again we celebrate 29 years later this month. We've had some time to learn each other. I would say that I'm getting more touch this week than my wife is. She doesn't need it like I do. She prefers her touch in the form of Massage. 

On the other hand Sunday she was in the book all day. There was no effective verbal communication.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

SunCMars said:


> This a typical wife response.
> 
> It is not a "wrong" response....but is one that saddens me and would cause me to pull back...why bother if everything is over-analyzed and immediately points to the "all you want is sex" response.
> 
> Men like sex...sex to men *is* communication....that is one "major" way that they [men] express their love.


Which comes first, chicken? Egg? Men want women to communicate THEIR way. Women want men to communicate THEIR way. What we too often do is communicate past each other. Once resentment starts building, getting past that can be hard. I know back when I really though ALL DH wanted was sex having his hands all over me in a sexual manner just pissed me off.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

either she's into it or she's not.

if she is, do whatever you want.

if she's not, back off because it's just annoying.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

without getting into the definition of groping vs. fondling, vs. touching, the answer is that more groping than she wants is too much.

There are too many details, and to much about attitude, and your normal physical relationship. 




bilbag said:


> How much groping is too much? I see flesh and I can't help it. Nice legs when she wears shorts, her lower back when her shirt rises, her open shoulders, her neck, and so on. I would think it is normal to touch your wife. She disagrees. How does it work for your marriage? Should it be saved mainly for the bedroom, hands/lips off otherwise?


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> I think there is a lot of overlap in some people's minds between fondling and groping. Can you clarify where you feel the distinction is made?





NobodySpecial said:


> This is a word that would be used to describe what someone might attempt to do on the subway.
> 
> "2.
> informal
> ...


Maybe only language OCD types like me make a distinction.

Fondling is something one does gently, respectfully and playfully, and is generally anticipated to be welcomed by the fondlee and intended to be also for their pleasure.

Groping is something more violent, more forceful, done solely for the pleasure of the groper with little to no consideration for whether the gropee would welcome it, or indeed in the full knowledge that it is unwelcome.

One fondles one's spouse. A light caress, a gentle squeeze, a hint of things to come later when there is more opportunity. It's flirting.

One gropes a stranger on the metro. A rude pinch, a quick poke, a painful clench, for the groper's jollies. It's a sexual assault.

Of course, it gets blurred because of the way language is used, and because people have different preferences between gentle and rough.

And don't get me started why touching children sexually is usually called fondling instead of groping. No wonder people are confused.

The distinction is not just all in the mind of the receiver. It's one of those 'would a reasonable person consider this unwelcome' kind of judgments.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

I definitely need touch. So I grope all the time lol. If I stop or miss an opportunity to smack a butt my Gf starts to wonder what's wrong with me. I couldn't be with someone who doesn't like to be touched !!


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> What is the rest of your relationship like?
> 
> This sort of a complain it usually due to the woman feeling like the only thing you are interested in is sex. You have no interest in her as a person.
> 
> How many hours a week do the two of you spend together doing date-like things, just the two of you? What sort of things do you do together?





SunCMars said:


> This a typical wife response.
> 
> It is not a "wrong" response....but is one that saddens me and would cause me to pull back...why bother if everything is over-analyzed and immediately points to the "all you want is sex" response.
> 
> ...


 @SunCMars in my opinion a real man still knows how to "communicate" with his wife and eventually still have sex. It requires you to have at least 30 minutes of patience, admit you are a horndog, and that having a beautiful wife that can do that do you is something you would not trade for endless sums of money.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

bilbag said:


> How much groping is too much? I see flesh and I can't help it. Nice legs when she wears shorts, her lower back when her shirt rises, her open shoulders, her neck, and so on. I would think it is normal to touch your wife. She disagrees. How does it work for your marriage? Should it be saved mainly for the bedroom, hands/lips off otherwise?


My W loves it....a lot.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

It depends on how it's done, how often and where. 

Be careful not to make her feel that you love her only for her looks. It may help to balance the interest you show sexually with the interest in nonsexual ways. 

Does it really matter if 99% of women like being groped when she does not? She does have a right to decide what she likes without needing to defend her preferences to her husband? 

I occasionally tease by discreetly grouping my husband in a public place when he can't do anything about it. I don't do it frequently or the same way or place. He never knows when it's coming. >

Would it be satisfying if she groped you the way you like? No reason she can't cater to your preferences while you cater to her's. 

I don't like him grouping me every time I pass him in the house or wear a pair of shorts. I have to be in the mood. It's different for him, he is almost always in the mood. 

We respect our differences. He does not do things I don't like and neither do I. We are different people and allowed to like and dislike different things.


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## LadybugMomma (Apr 28, 2016)

I would feel bad if my husband didn't grope/touch me. Hell, I can't even bend over in the kitchen without a grab. I don't mind a single bit though. I'd be worried if he didn't touch me.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

bilbag said:


> How much groping is too much?


If it's more than she wants, it's too much.

Read Mem's temperature thread. Sound like you really need it.

Interesting groping story:

I used to grope my wife's breasts often.

Once she pulled away, obviously annoyed. She could tell I was a bit disturbed so she explained that "sometimes" she just wasn't in the mood. I subsequently completely stopped touching her breasts outside of sex. She noticed and said that it was because my male ego was bruised and I shouldn't be so sensitive. I disagreed. When I picked her up from the airport after a business trip, she'd spend an hour straight telling me all about her week. I asked her what she would do if I ever said "sometimes I'm just not in the mood to listen to your stories for an hour". She acknowledged that she'd never do it again. Although I still give her the occasional grope, she can sense that I'm just doing it for effect and misses feeling sexual. The weird thing is that that was mostly why I was doing it in the first place; bringing more of a sexual edge to her and the relationship (and, by the way, it was working).


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Catherine602 said:


> I occasionally tease by discreetly grouping my husband in a public place when *he can't do anything about it*. I don't do it frequently or the same way or place. He never knows when it's coming. >


O.... M.... G.... 


You know @Catherine602 men are not just pieces of meat. We are human beings with feelings. 


Oh my, 
Badsanta


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

My husband constantly gropes me, snacks my ass and dry humps me. I would think something was wrong with him if he didn't. He also makes it a point to peek his head in at least once while I'm in the bathtub. 

He rarely does it in public though. Although I wouldn't mind the occasional butt squeeze or smack.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

badsanta said:


> O.... M.... G....
> 
> 
> You know @Catherine602 men are not just pieces of meat. We are human beings with feelings.
> ...


Really?? I'm going to have to pretend you didn't inform me because I won't stop. :grin2: 

I'm insensitive and selfish I know but what the hell. He is my husband, who do I get to grab if not him?


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

bilbag said:


> How much groping is too much? I see flesh and I can't help it. Nice legs when she wears shorts, her lower back when her shirt rises, her open shoulders, her neck, and so on. I would think it is normal to touch your wife. She disagrees. How does it work for your marriage? Should it be saved mainly for the bedroom, hands/lips off otherwise?


As someone said, groping is without feeling and is done as a power play. Fondling is done with love.

Interesting question. I fondle my wife also. There are times when she lets me and other times when she brushes me off. I think a woman needs to be sure that she is respected and loved for what she is rather than just lusted upon for her boobs and ass. When my wife is cooking in the kitchen, I come up behind her and peek at what she is doing, with my hands on her waist as I move them up. Sometimes I move to her boobs, sometimes I don't. Sometimes I squeeze her butt. Other times I don't. Sometimes I just playfully pull her hair and stroke it (she likes that). Or kiss behind her neck. I do different things so she does not know what's coming.

Do you do other things that fall in the romance category? Do you date your wife? Do you buy her gifts, do thoughtful things for her, appreciate her abilities and what she does for you? If not, try those first for some time until she feels that you love her. Then she will be more amenable to you fondling her.

If you do fondle her and she brushes you off, don't mope or yell at her or get angry. Don't let it bother you, make sure it doesn't look like you are miffed and then try again at the right time. 

Make sure you are also aware of where and in front of whom you do it. My wife is petrified of the kids seeing or her parents being around. She is not too comfortable with PDA, like if I kiss her on a public street ("what will people think?").


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

LosingHim said:


> My husband constantly gropes me, snacks my ass and dry humps me. I would think something was wrong with him if he didn't. *He also makes it a point to peek his head in at least once while I'm in the bathtub.
> *
> He rarely does it in public though. Although I wouldn't mind the occasional butt squeeze or smack.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If I had it to do my life all over again, I would design the master bathtub completely out of glass. I would have my mancave directly below in the basement with a remote that opens a skylight (a "tublight" in my case). Underneath would be a couch to where I could stare up at my wife bathing and day dream about her, or for when she is not bathing I would close the skylight and catch up on some Game of Thrones episodes on my widescreen TV! 










If only.... (daydreaming about it right now....) 

Badsanta


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I don't want anyone to think I am doing something to my husband without his consent, he loves it. I don't initiate in the traditional way due to my background.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Catherine602 said:


> I don't want anyone to think I am doing something to my husband without his consent, he loves it. I don't initiate in the traditional way due to my background.


Never entered my mind. I've said many times when women complain he didn't get her subtle shift of an eyebrow signal - men are super simple, just grab the handle


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

My wife doesn't mind a little fondling.

But the breasts are completely, utterly, totally off limits for some reason. Perfectly okay during sex, NEVER okay at any other time. It makes her angry. Honestly, it's weird, but it's her thing. Her nether regions are off limits, too. Anything else - perfectly okay.

I've asked her about it in the past, and she has no idea why this is.

She also never fondles me, either. She may rub my thigh once in a while, but it's completely non-sexual. In almost 8 years, she's never once touched my junk, grabbed my butt, nothing. There's no sexual touching allowed unless we're having sex. 

Basically no playing around. It's all or nothing, and honestly, it sucks. But it is what it is.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

badsanta said:


> If I had it to do my life all over again, I would design the master bathtub completely out of glass. I would have my mancave directly below in the basement with a remote that opens a skylight (a "tublight" in my case). Underneath would be a couch to where I could stare up at my wife bathing and day dream about her, or for when she is not bathing I would close the skylight and catch up on some Game of Thrones episodes on my widescreen TV!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Honestly, I find you kinda creepy. Now I know you aren't. But this little daydream is a bit whacky. If could not even have personal space in the bathtub. Ugh!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

No need for expensive renovations... Install a (waterproof) hi res webcam instead. The viewing angle provided by the plexiglass tub is rather suboptimal


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

alexm said:


> My wife doesn't mind a little fondling.
> 
> But the breasts are completely, utterly, totally off limits for some reason. Perfectly okay during sex, NEVER okay at any other time. It makes her angry. Honestly, it's weird, but it's her thing. Her nether regions are off limits, too. Anything else - perfectly okay.
> 
> ...


I believe in the theory that once a woman has kids and is done having kids, then her mode switch flips to being a mom and no longer in the lover mode. I see this in my wife as well. She would initiate and be more sexual when were in the baby making mode. Even after our first one. After the second, that is it. 

Some women here will blame the husband for this again as they normally do, but this is my observation in my own case, from reading here and from other people.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

badsanta said:


> If I had it to do my life all over again, I would design the master bathtub completely out of glass. I would have my mancave directly below in the basement with a remote that opens a skylight (a "tublight" in my case). Underneath would be a couch to where I could stare up at my wife bathing and day dream about her, or for when she is not bathing I would close the skylight and catch up on some Game of Thrones episodes on my widescreen TV!
> 
> 
> 
> ...





NobodySpecial said:


> Honestly, I find you kinda creepy. Now I know you aren't. But this little daydream is a bit whacky. If could not even have personal space in the bathtub. Ugh!


In real life every time a try to peek my head into the shower, my wife slings a handful of soapsuds right into my eyes! So with her personality I'm sure if I did have a tub with a glass bottom that I could enjoy being a voyeur from below that she would buy this to put on the bottom:










...and tell me to enjoy staring at püssy until my heart is content!

So don't worry, if there is a side to me that is slightly creepy, my wife uses that to mess with my head and demonstrate her sexual prowess over me so that she always gets a good laugh!

Badsanta


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

nirvana said:


> I believe in the theory that once a woman has kids and is done having kids, then her mode switch flips to being a mom and no longer in the lover mode. I see this in my wife as well. She would initiate and be more sexual when were in the baby making mode. Even after our first one. After the second, that is it.


Hmmm...

If an HD is an HD because of 'his' biology, then couldn't an LD be an LD because of 'her' biology? 

Hmm...


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

Vega said:


> Hmmm...
> 
> If an HD is an HD because of 'his' biology, then couldn't an LD be an LD because of 'her' biology?
> 
> Hmm...


Sure, it is possible.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Vega said:


> Hmmm...
> 
> If an HD is an HD because of 'his' biology, then couldn't an LD be an LD because of 'her' biology?
> 
> Hmm...


Absolutely not. Not ever. It is an evil plot to deny someone their marriage given right to free sex whenever and to exert control.

Sigh.

But the vast majority of time, IMO, drive is not the issue for the supposed "LD" but dysfunction in the relationship.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> But the vast majority of time, IMO, drive is not the issue for the supposed "LD" but dysfunction in the relationship.


Totally agree.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

jld said:


> Totally agree.


I remember early on in our relationship. I will grant that I did not understand him. He will now grant that he did not understand me. There was SOOO MUCH of this misunderstanding, from housework, to financial responsibility, to the one child at the time, to the emotional detachment, to the way "we" were handling our family. There were so many things neither of us were doing right. The fact that he singled out lack of sex as THE thing, THE ONE THING, was a slap in the face. I even tried to just do it. That did not help. Even he was not happy with that.

These sex threads are tough. There are some people who I think just married badly. I think that, actually, in a lot of the sub-forums. But even with the folks who genuinely love each other, there is a fixation each on their own side of pain. Let's face it, the lack of sex threads are overwhelmingly made by men. Yes, it happens to women. (These threads by and large sound like women who just married useless duds.) These men are operating completely in good faith. They want to experience a genuinely satisfying sex life with their wives. And from my experience, it is easy to say things to your husband that you need (more help with housework and kids...) but that will not help with the sexual enthusiasm. For me, what I knew at the time was that I was overwhelmed being the only one doing the work while I perceived that all he did was take care of himself and played. Then he started "helping" with the work. Well his view of what it took and my view were very different. To his defense, he had no real idea what it took until I set very effective and demonstrable limits on what I was willing to do. His Mom had done EVERYTHING. To the point that he could not see what was being done. It just happened as if by magic.

What's my point? Don't put your (rhetorical) marital problems in a box. Understand it in the context of the whole marriage. If it is sex, financials, child rearing... Know it. Understand that your partner comes to you with assumptions of their own, and SO DO YOU. If you came to marriage thinking that you could go to work, come home to a hot meal and get regular sex cuz that is what you think you signed up for, recognize that in this day and age, she might not agree. 

And women, if you think you have a happy marriage without recognizing that your husband wants sex with you, wants that connection with you whether you get it or not, then get that fact. That is what he wants.

The bottom line on most of these threads is that people are not willing to be real in setting limits such that the person can wade through the assumptions, expectations and resentments of years. If you MEAN you want your husband to be an equal partner in the maintenance of the home and family, SHOW HIM BY STOPPING DOING IT SO HE KNOWS WHAT THAT LOOKS LIKE. If you MEAN you won't be in a sexless marriage, SHOW HER BY BEING WILLING TO WALK OUT THE DOOR.

There is a lot of ***** footing around.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> I remember early on in our relationship. I will grant that I did not understand him. He will now grant that he did not understand me. There was SOOO MUCH of this misunderstanding, from housework, to financial responsibility, to the one child at the time, to the emotional detachment, to the way "we" were handling our family. There were so many things neither of us were doing right. The fact that he singled out lack of sex as THE thing, THE ONE THING, was a slap in the face. I even tried to just do it. That did not help. Even he was not happy with that.
> 
> These sex threads are tough. There are some people who I think just married badly. I think that, actually, in a lot of the sub-forums. But even with the folks who genuinely love each other, there is a fixation each on their own side of pain. Let's face it, the lack of sex threads are overwhelmingly made by men. Yes, it happens to women. (These threads by and large sound like women who just married useless duds.) These men are operating completely in good faith. They want to experience a genuinely satisfying sex life with their wives. And from my experience, it is easy to say things to your husband that you need (more help with housework and kids...) but that will not help with the sexual enthusiasm. For me, what I knew at the time was that I was overwhelmed being the only one doing the work while I perceived that all he did was take care of himself and played. Then he started "helping" with the work. Well his view of what it took and my view were very different. To his defense, he had no real idea what it took until I set very effective and demonstrable limits on what I was willing to do. His Mom had done EVERYTHING. To the point that he could not see what was being done. It just happened as if by magic.
> 
> ...


great post.

I don't agree with all of it, but I think you really nail the aspect of people getting into separate silos where they can only see what they are not getting as individuals and fail to see the overall picture of the relationship.

the other thing I think people need to contend with is that sometimes (and I would bet in a not insignificant number of these cases), there is no real "solution" and no real "failure."

instead, there might just be two people who are being themselves, but who change over time. 

whereas at one point in time, there may have been substantial overlap in their individual habits and preferences, later there may be less so.

in these situations, such divergences are often felt by the other person as being _inflicted _ upon them, when in reality, each person in the relationship is just living his/her life.

if you can put aside the feeling that your partner is somehow "doing this to you," this can be a gateway toward seeing the big picture.

the big picture might actually be that you are no longer particularly compatible, but that's just life.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> great post.
> 
> I don't agree with all of it, but I think you really nail the aspect of people getting into separate silos where they can only see what they are not getting as individuals and fail to see the overall picture of the relationship.
> 
> the other thing I think people need to contend with is that sometimes (and I would bet in a not insignificant number of these cases), *there is no real "solution" and no real "failure."*


Yeah there is. But it is not what people think... more sex... partnered housework. It is coming together in co-joined, genuine happiness. At least for me, if that could be achieved, that would be failure.



> instead, there might just be two people who are being themselves, but who change over time.
> 
> whereas at one point in time, there may have been substantial overlap in their individual habits and preferences, later there may be less so.


I actually don't think people change. I think the early part of relationships are just easy. They are based on easy things. Prior to any real responsibility, they are about having fun, have a sense of humor, some great booty. Nothing is really intruding on that. But when responsibility comes, the difference in who you are, necessarily, shows through. OR we ignore who the other was in favor of ... LOVE. I believe in love. But I also believe that the early perception of us can mislead us in the person we are loving.



> in these situations, such divergences are often felt by the other person as being _inflicted _ upon them, when in reality, each person in the relationship is just living his/her life.
> 
> if you can put aside the feeling that your partner is somehow "doing this to you," this can be a gateway toward seeing the big picture.


I agree with this.



> the big picture might actually be that you are no longer particularly compatible, but that's just life.


Or, more likely, never really were.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> I remember early on in our relationship. I will grant that I did not understand him. He will now grant that he did not understand me. There was SOOO MUCH of this misunderstanding, from housework, to financial responsibility, to the one child at the time, to the emotional detachment, to the way "we" were handling our family. There were so many things neither of us were doing right. The fact that he singled out lack of sex as THE thing, THE ONE THING, was a slap in the face. I even tried to just do it. That did not help. Even he was not happy with that.
> 
> These sex threads are tough. There are some people who I think just married badly. I think that, actually, in a lot of the sub-forums. But even with the folks who genuinely love each other, there is a fixation each on their own side of pain. Let's face it, the lack of sex threads are overwhelmingly made by men. Yes, it happens to women. (These threads by and large sound like women who just married useless duds.) These men are operating completely in good faith. They want to experience a genuinely satisfying sex life with their wives. And from my experience, it is easy to say things to your husband that you need (more help with housework and kids...) but that will not help with the sexual enthusiasm. For me, what I knew at the time was that I was overwhelmed being the only one doing the work while I perceived that all he did was take care of himself and played. Then he started "helping" with the work. Well his view of what it took and my view were very different. To his defense, he had no real idea what it took until I set very effective and demonstrable limits on what I was willing to do. His Mom had done EVERYTHING. To the point that he could not see what was being done. It just happened as if by magic.
> 
> ...


As Chris Rock says "Feed me, Fvck me, and shut the Fvck up!".
I don't agree with point 3, but 1 and 2 are good ones.
Men are simple, we have egos and want to think of ourselves as taking care of our wives and kids. A smart woman knows this and feeds this ego and keeps her man happy. A manipulative @#%[email protected]# of a woman thinks she can use it as a controlling mechanism and plays games with him. 
Same with sex. For men, sex conveys that his wife still thinks he is desirable. But so many women play the carrot game about sex and then wonder why the husband eventually strays and cheats.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

nirvana said:


> As Chris Rock says "Feed me, Fvck me, and shut the Fvck up!".
> I don't agree with point 3, but 1 and 2 are good ones.
> Men are simple, we have egos and *want to think* of ourselves as taking care of our wives and kids. A smart woman knows this and feeds this ego and keeps her man happy.


Barf city. And what does a smart man do? Go to work, expect a hot meal and sex whenever he wants? Holy missing the point, batman.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> Barf city. And what does a smart man do? Go to work, expect a hot meal and sex whenever he wants? Holy missing the point, batman.


You disagree? You know what it is to be a man more than men themselves?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

nirvana said:


> You disagree? You know what it is to be a man more than men themselves?


I was wondering what the wife got out of it. Granted, I don't know what the Indian culture must be like. Sounds like hell to me.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

If all I did with and for my husband was feed him and have sex with him, he would not be a happy camper, btw.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Rowan said:


> My ex-husband was pretty bad about that. He once licked my chest - cleavage to earlobe - with the flat of his tongue, in full view of several of my family members at a holiday gathering.


That's disgusting, that he did that in public. Was he drunk?


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Chris Rock is obviously hyperbole.

BTW, I believe he is very happily married and a family man.

If you're not determined to read his joke as sexist, there is a pretty good summary there of what would make your partner happy. 

I don't even really think it is particularly gender based either.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

nirvana said:


> As Chris Rock says "Feed me, Fvck me, and shut the Fvck up!".


Chris Rock isn't even original. The original saying is full belly, empty balls. Which is okay if you're married to a caveman, I guess. Mine expects more from me.

This was an interesting article from a guy's perspective

4 Big Mistakes I Made As A Husband That Led To Divorce | YourTango


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

"F- me" = self explanatory

"Feed me" = literally cook, or could mean provide for me 

"Shut the f- up" = don't be a needy wet blanket


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> Chris Rock is obviously hyperbole.


I wouldn't call it hyperbole. I would have said minimalist.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

sapientia said:


> That's disgusting, that he did that in public. Was he drunk?


 @Rowan, you said that you were powerless to stop him because he did it in front of several of your family members, and it would have caused a scene if you had said something.

Rowan, why is not causing a scene more important to you than standing up for yourself?


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

jld said:


> @Rowan, you said that you were powerless to stop him because he did it in front of several of your family members, and it would have caused a scene if you had said something.
> 
> Rowan, why is not causing a scene more important to you than standing up for yourself?


No kidding. I wouldn't have embarrassed him in the moment, but I would have called him aside and said "hey, do I look like a f-ucking popsicle? What is wrong with you?"

But clearly, she did call him out, eventually, by divorcing him.


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## Miss Independent (Mar 24, 2014)

.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

I would think that contact like that should be wanted if not expected in a marriage. If you can't touch her without complaints something is very wrong. She's probably acting like this because she will say there's a bunch of problems she has with you. Been there and done that ...it's a symptom of a bad marriage.


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## JamesTKirk (Sep 8, 2015)

If you can't grope your spouse, who can you grope?
I'm half kidding.
I think Married but Happy nailed it when saying "Groping none, fondling lots."

I was groping my wife and she scoffed at me or gave me other negative reactions. I asked her about it and she said, "Well, I just feel like a piece of meat when you do that." Clearly it wasn't working for her. It didn't make any difference when I told her "but with all of your working out, your body is just so sexy."
I changed my method. I still touch her, but I switched to mixing it in with hugs or kisses or other light touching or casual massaging or shoulder rubbing. That is physical intimacy first, then cheap feels follow. That way it feels more like physically attractive acceptance as opposed to copping a feel and she really likes it. I can't just do a drive-by grope or it feels really cheap to her.
Well, not always. Under the right circumstances when there is some sexual interest already brewing, a nice fondle can feel more like the promise of things to come later.
It's all about tact and circumstances. But I've learned that "drive by fondling" as I call it is pretty much a turn-off to her.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

nirvana said:


> You disagree? You know what it is to be a man more than men themselves?


That's funny bc you seem to know what it is to be a woman more than women do.

You are still going on with the "all women do this or that" type of comments based on your experience of one.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

spinsterdurga said:


> Why call him aside? I would have embarrassed him in front of everyone but I'm mean like that.


First, to make sure there isn't something I don't understand going on. Second, to pull his head out of his a$$ from whatever is wrong, but discretely. My H and I are a team when we appear in public. That's just how it is.

In private, however, I would air this sh!t out and no holding back.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

When my wife and I are in public, we are always hugging, holding hands, basically acting like we are dating and in love. Every once in a while there is an occasional discreet hand rubbing a butt. 

When we are in private, we are both groping each other. incessantly. And it's extremely sexual. She will often just randomly start giving me a blow job, hand job, etc. I will often randomly just pull down her panties and play with her, etc. 

We both love it, and it usually leads to full on sex. It's like we just stay in a purpetual foreplay mode. 
It's been that way for a couple years now. 

It's a far cry from where we were seven years ago. I tried to give her a hug once back then and she told me to get off her, she is not my f-ing cuddle buddy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jarhed (Nov 11, 2012)

As'laDain said:


> When my wife and I are in public, we are always hugging, holding hands, basically acting like we are dating and in love. Every once in a while there is an occasional discreet hand rubbing a butt.
> 
> When we are in private, we are both groping each other. incessantly. And it's extremely sexual. She will often just randomly start giving me a blow job, hand job, etc. I will often randomly just pull down her panties and play with her, etc.
> 
> ...


WHAT CHANGED!? Do tell. I'm a really touchy person and like to be touched back. Even if it is just touching her hand in public. With my Ex it was so natural, we loved touching each other and she relished me patting her rear or kissing her neck in passing while we were cooking or walking by in the hallway.

My wife cringes and gets pissy when I touch her and she never touches back. She says she feels like I'm objectifying her.

This is one of our major sources of contention. Ugh....


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

The short answer is that I changed, and she changed because I changed. 


The long answer would merit it's own thread.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

alexm said:


> My wife doesn't mind a little fondling.
> 
> But the breasts are completely, utterly, totally off limits for some reason. Perfectly okay during sex, NEVER okay at any other time. It makes her angry. Honestly, it's weird, but it's her thing. Her nether regions are off limits, too. Anything else - perfectly okay.


I'm a lot like your wife in this regard. I absolutely abhor drive by breast or vagina groping or fondling. It's annoying and a complete turnoff. My husband knows to start from the outside and slowly work his way in. IOW, rub my arms/legs, hug me, kiss my neck, run his fingers through my hair. .....warm the engine before taking it out on the Autobahn. 




alexm said:


> She also never fondles me, either. She may rub my thigh once in a while, but it's completely non-sexual. In almost 8 years, she's never once touched my junk, grabbed my butt, nothing. There's no sexual touching allowed unless we're having sex.


I love touching and kissing my husband but I don't fondle his junk either without first making sure it's something he welcomes. I feel it's disrespectful to grope him like that without an 'invitation'. 

All this to say I don't think your wife is weird. She just has a different boundaries when it comes to personal space. 



Sent from mobile using Tapatalk


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Lila said:


> I'm a lot like your wife in this regard. I absolutely abhor drive by breast or vagina groping or fondling. It's annoying and a complete turnoff. My husband knows to start from the outside and slowly work his way in. IOW, rub my arms/legs, hug me, kiss my neck, run his fingers through my hair. .....warm the engine before taking it out on the Autobahn.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't think she's weird, either!

But when I say "never", I mean never. Invite or no, it doesn't happen.

ps. we always welcome it from our wives (and strangers when we're single)


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

nirvana said:


> I believe in the theory that once a woman has kids and is done having kids, then her mode switch flips to being a mom and no longer in the lover mode. I see this in my wife as well. She would initiate and be more sexual when were in the baby making mode. Even after our first one. After the second, that is it.
> 
> Some women here will blame the husband for this again as they normally do, but this is my observation in my own case, from reading here and from other people.


I was the complete opposite.. I became far more sexual & insatiable after kids.. go figure.. I am MORE of a groper over my own husband.. frankly I've told him its his husbandly duty .. when he sees me walk past to grab by ass.. I love it!

He is very affectionate and hands on.. so I can't complain too much but he could raise the Erotic bar some... with more of a "I want you Now.. I can't control myself " sort of vibe ...Yeah.. I'd eat that up... 

He's been on the receiving end plenty of times..


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I was the complete opposite.. I became far more sexual & insatiable after kids.. go figure.. I am MORE of a groper over my own husband.. frankly I've told him its his husbandly duty .. when he sees me walk past to grab by ass.. I love it!
> 
> He is very affectionate and hands on.. so I can't complain too much but he could raise the Erotic bar some... with more of a "I want you Now.. I can't control myself " sort of vibe ...Yeah.. I'd eat that up...
> 
> He's been on the receiving end plenty of times..


That's awesome. I wish I was married to someone like you.

But women like you are very rare. Your husband is very lucky.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

NobodySpecial said:


> Barf city. And what does a smart man do? Go to work, expect a hot meal and sex whenever he wants? Holy missing the point, batman.


 My husband never had* THIS attitude*.. not for a day..I just want to say this.. as I've never looked upon sex in any kind of resentful way.. I've never been "turned off" by him..at any phase in our marriage....

That was a good post you left (post #46 here).. I would imagine this speaks for the majority... though I do feel there are those women "just not caring or thinking about sex" (LOW DRIVE) ..this can still be an issue even if she has a wonderful giving husband..

I say this because...

I do feel *my lesser drive* was the culprit when he wanted MORE SEX ... I was never a tired woman, didn't feel stressed by kids.. (though I did allow them to be more of a focus).. I was thrilled to have them after years of trying to conceive...

That caused more of an issue with our sex life.. trying to "TIME" sex during infertility...his putting himself down -for me.. for having a family... .he STUFFED how he was really feeling ....to spare me.. 

When the tables turned and I realized he did this and suffered (not like a sexless marriage but it could have been so much MORE!).... I was very very remorseful but also mad he didn't push for more sex back then...(not the typical complaint you'll hear from any woman on this forum !)

Nothing about our situation makes sense likely... my husband is not exactly "Alpha" either...he probably COULD HAVE flipped my switches more so back in the day had he took more authority and came after me, turning up the heat.... as I always loved sex.. just didn't have it on my mind AS MUCH , then allowing my focus to be elsewhere...

He KNEW once he got me going.. he better not stop !! I feel he had lots to work with... 

I am sure one of the reasons I feel so attached & crazy about my husband after 36 yrs is because of how he's always treated me, with his time & affection.. always showed great care...I'd call it "Extraordinary care" as Harley, the author or "His Needs/ Her Needs" would describe it...he's always seen that my needs are met.. never complained...

I was never a woman who needed help with housework though or cooking, etc.. didn't matter how many kids we had or even that I had side jobs.. I felt strongly he had his role in doing the manly stuff.. and I handled the fort.. this was our "teamwork" in managing a household.. but still he had an attitude of being willing to help me - had I needed it.. THIS does go a long way... I also was this way towards helping him with vehicle / house repairs etc.. 

...But still I missed it sexually -for him back in the day...NOT understanding the antiness of a male sex drive.. till I had my own hormonal surge.. that opened my eyes SO WIDE .... 



> *Lila said*: I love touching and kissing my husband but I don't fondle his junk either without first making sure it's something he welcomes. I feel it's disrespectful to grope him like that without an 'invitation'


 I am sure glad my husband welcomes it or we'd be in trouble.. The only place he would shun is if others were around.. like in public or maybe the kids in the room.. if we're alone.. Oh my [email protected]# He's a happy camper...

I can be overtly aggressive when I am in the mood.. even back then when my drive was lessor over his.. when I wanted it.. I just went over to him.. and grabbed the pipe... I wasn't exactly subtle...


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

what is a love tap to a man, is a mauling/groping to a woman. Sadly! ugh!


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## CantePe (Oct 5, 2011)

Don't grope me. I'm liable to slap the crap out of you.

Caress me and I'm liable to ...well you get the point.

I hate groping. My breasts are not fun bags to grope and manipulate. Treat them with respect and I'm more than happy to step it up and bring out the wild side.

My husband knows better than to grope, paw or grab at me. It does nothing for me sexually and is a huge turn off.

A soft touch, a light kiss, and cuddle at the kitchen counter from behind. That's my idea of sexual and emotional intimacy.

Soft, warm, gentle...that gets my motor running at full throttle.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Women are encouraged to ask for what they want and tell their husband what feels good etc. How many times have I read, "I'll do anything she wants but she does not tell me". 

Yet one small request like "please don't mash my breast" seems an unwarranted restriction. Isn't requesting to be touched in a way that feels good asking for what is wanted? It is a simple request to be sensitive to the needs of a partner without resentment or complaining that it's no big deal. 

My husband and I had this problem when we first married. I really don't like being touched sexually at random times, especially when I don't expect it. He couldn't see why it was such a big deal and he would do it anyway to tease me. I became quite nervous and watchful. We had a colossal blow up about it and he finally stopped but not without complaining. 

We were both immature, I didn't make it clear to him how it made me feel and I tried to like it because he thought I should. He wasn't sensitive enough to allow me to decide what felt good. 

It's risky to persist in touching in a way that is not welcomed. It makes one person feel that they have no right to control how their body is used and it encourages the other to be insensitive. It is also part of the big picture of LTR and sex. The accumulation of too many little unwelcome things may shut down one person. 

I think its safer to make sexual contact good for both. There would be no resentment about forgoing a butt grab when its not welcomed.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

Catherine602 said:


> Yet one small request like "please don't mash my breast" seems an unwarranted restriction. Isn't requesting to be touched in a way that feels good asking for what is wanted? It is a simple request to be sensitive to the needs of a partner without resentment or complaining that it's no big deal.


It might seem to be an unwarranted restriction... but try, at least for for a moment, to _actually_ see the world from the *other persons'* point of view.... ie without projecting your history, perceptions and expectations on to them. They have not got breasts, not like that, never had tender wee things growing up, they have a solid chest made to take impact in a fight, and their skin isn't extra sensitive to touch and motion (ask a TG person going onto Estrogen about that). They don't know what works and what doesn't, and often work from movies and stories...and what feedback they given and shown. What you consider "mashing" is likely what they would experience as "moderate stimulation"...and how should they know any better....
The point of communicating _what_you_want_ is about grab here, set to this rhythm - it's about sharing the motions and pressures that work for you, because he doesn't have a female body to guage these things by, which should be obvious if most women thought about it!


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## bilbag (Aug 3, 2016)

SimplyAmorous said:


> My husband never had* THIS attitude*.. not for a day..I just want to say this.. as I've never looked upon sex in any kind of resentful way.. I've never been "turned off" by him..at any phase in our marriage....
> 
> That was a good post you left (post #46 here).. I would imagine this speaks for the majority... though I do feel there are those women "just not caring or thinking about sex" (LOW DRIVE) ..this can still be an issue even if she has a wonderful giving husband..
> 
> ...


I am glad groping is allowed from your point of view. Since all forms of touch is unwelcome in my case, then I am certainly groping. But I am still crazy for her. Hopefully she too will have her hormonal surge. How long did your H have to wait in your 36yr marriage before the surge?
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## joannacroc (Dec 17, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> If it's more than she wants, it's too much.
> 
> Read Mem's temperature thread. Sound like you really need it.
> 
> ...


Perhaps it was the frequency? Or the location? When I was married I liked being held/kissed/touched but the location was an issue - if it was at work, whether it was where someone could see us or not, it made me uncomfortable as others could walk in at any moment who I would see at work every day.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

Catherine602 said:


> Women are encouraged to ask for what they want and tell their husband what feels good etc. How many times have I read, "I'll do anything she wants but she does not tell me".
> Yet one small request like "please don't mash my breast" seems an unwarranted restriction.


As a man I hate to say it about men but oftentimes they get their information about what women want from porn sites and literature. When the wants of their wives/girlfriends don't match the archetypal "vixen" they've read about, they get all pissy, hurt, and wonder what's wrong. 
My observation is if you want to know what a woman likes or doesn't like, watch her body language. It speaks to you first. Her words comes second. Focus on her needs and pleasing her and you may not have to worry about her initiating next time.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

bilbag said:


> I am glad groping is allowed from your point of view. Since all forms of touch is unwelcome in my case, then I am certainly groping. But I am still crazy for her. Hopefully she too will have her hormonal surge. How long did your H have to wait in your 36yr marriage before the surge?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The answer to this is >> "far too long"... we had 6 kids by then - and married 19 yrs.. I was 42.. he was 45...I think what jump started this was.. had our last son, oldest off to college.. I recently made a movie maker video for Son's Grad party.. when that was over.. I decided to make one for US... just me & him...

I stayed up all night scanning photos, piecing this together with a sappy love song.. when I played this thing back.. 








it just flipped a switch in me or something.. I was wanting to reach in the screen & grab that hot young man & live our lives over again.. suddenly I realized we were too busy playing "family".. we skipped the romantic vacations... What was I thinking !... That was the END of that ! 

He got up that morning for work.... I never slept.. I was all over him.. and it just took off from there...then I wanted to just get rid of the kids and me & him run off together .. ha ha... 

But yeah.. it seems all those things I just took for granted.. I wanted to experience NOW.. here & now.. but there was some "electric" hormonal stirrings with this.. I also wish I had my Testosterone checked back then... I hardly needed sleep.. didn't need a drop of foreplay for 8 straight months.. I was ready to go ! Sometimes it was a little tormenting.. I feel I got a taste of what young men are dealing with.. I was thinking.. "How in the world do they even concentrate when they are feeling like this!"... 

I was enjoying it so much.. I wanted to keep them stirred ! If he pushed me away during that time.. I don't think I could have handled it. 

It seems hit or miss with this sex drive increase with women...there has been a # of female posters who came here -sharing their experience ... Here is one thread > http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/43267-i-cant-stop-thinking-about-sex.html

My mother went through it.. a few friends I know felt it.. then others.. just didn't happen...

Let's hope it hits your wife @bilbag ! There has also been men who grew so resentful through the years wanting their wives -being pushed away.. then when it did HIT.. they wanted to make her suffer... (can you even blame them?).. there was a thread like that here too... I probably can't find it again... but it was a great example of that..


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Catherine602 said:


> My husband and I had this problem when we first married. I really don't like being touched sexually at random times, especially when I don't expect it. He couldn't see why it was such a big deal and he would do it anyway to tease me. I became quite nervous and watchful. We had a colossal blow up about it


This! If my H would just grab me and hug me once in a while, or just kiss me, it would go a long way toward making me ok with groping. But the only time he comes toward me is when he wants to grab my butt or my crotch or my breasts. I'm not a stupid blowup doll. So, yeah, that's a problem.

So is doing it to 'surprise' her. My first instinct if he comes out of nowhere and grabs my butt or breasts is to elbow him in the face because I don't know it's him and I react instantly.

And the teasing part is the worst. What, no big deal to me. Yeah? Well it is to me. How about listening to what I DON'T want?


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## Begin again (Jul 4, 2016)

VladDracul said:


> As a man I hate to say it about men but oftentimes they get their information about what women want from porn sites and literature. When the wants of their wives/girlfriends don't match the archetypal "vixen" they've read about, they get all pissy, hurt, and wonder what's wrong.
> My observation is if you want to know what a woman likes or doesn't like, watch her body language. It speaks to you first. Her words comes second. Focus on her needs and pleasing her and you may not have to worry about her initiating next time.


Absolutely! Personally, I don't want to be "attacked" in the bedroom. I much prefer the skillful, deliberate touch, the teasing build up. Make me want it! Get me going... Well, just kinda got myself going there... 

And to turnera's point above, my erogenous zones are more than just my breasts, butt, and crotch. In fact, you'll get me going much better with starting elsewhere...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

VladDracul said:


> As a man I hate to say it about men but oftentimes they get their information about what women want from porn sites and literature. When the wants of their wives/girlfriends don't match the archetypal "vixen" they've read about, they get all pissy, hurt, and wonder what's wrong.
> My observation is if you want to know what a woman likes or doesn't like, watch her body language. It speaks to you first. Her words comes second. Focus on her needs and pleasing her and you may not have to worry about her initiating next time.


Absolutely. 

It comes down to not understanding the normal influence of gender on behavior and emotions. Wouldn't it be great if we had a required college course entitled "Men and women; culture and biology to help us understand and accept our basic natures.


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## bilbag (Aug 3, 2016)

SimplyAmorous said:


> The answer to this is >> "far too long"... we had 6 kids by then - and married 19 yrs.. I was 42.. he was 45...I think what jump started this was.. had our last son, oldest off to college.. I recently made a movie maker video for Son's Grad party.. when that was over.. I decided to make one for US... just me & him...
> 
> I stayed up all night scanning photos, piecing this together with a sappy love song.. when I played this thing back..
> 
> ...


Perfect, we've been married 19 yrs and it is far too long as well. And I am still hot. Now I wait for her switch to flip and be mauled one morning. 
Lovely story! @SimplyAmorous. Thank you.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Spot,
Why are you framing this as a comprehension issue?

This thread is not about a single event based on a lack of understanding. This is about an ongoing pattern of unwanted physical touch. 

Most humans like certain patterns of touch and dislike others. 

And a common theme in these threads is: my spouse isn't having (any, or enough) sex with me so I "take what I can get". 

That concept is so alien to me. 

So now I'm going to frame this in context. In MOST marriages, at some point the higher drive partner needs to cross the chasm separating spontaneous desire from responsive desire. 

If you have created a negative association with touch, the loss of the LD partners spontaneous desire is far far more likely to create a sexless marriage. 

If however you've created a strong positive association with touch, you are in a good starting place to work with your partner to learn how to engage their responsive desire. 




spotthedeaddog said:


> It might seem to be an unwarranted restriction... but try, at least for for a moment, to _actually_ see the world from the *other persons'* point of view.... ie without projecting your history, perceptions and expectations on to them. They have not got breasts, not like that, never had tender wee things growing up, they have a solid chest made to take impact in a fight, and their skin isn't extra sensitive to touch and motion (ask a TG person going onto Estrogen about that). They don't know what works and what doesn't, and often work from movies and stories...and what feedback they given and shown. What you consider "mashing" is likely what they would experience as "moderate stimulation"...and how should they know any better....
> The point of communicating _what_you_want_ is about grab here, set to this rhythm - it's about sharing the motions and pressures that work for you, because he doesn't have a female body to guage these things by, which should be obvious if most women thought about it!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Catherine,
We had the same blowup in year one of our marriage. It was the first time that M2 ever looked at me in a decidedly homicidal manner. And I'm not really joking about that. 

It's also true that it instantly dawned on me that I was damaging the marriage by touching her in a way she disliked. I immediately and permanently stopped - groping - her. 

TAM folklore says that if your wife turns out to be a good long term sexual partner - you just lucked out in that department. The more I read the more I believe that there is a LOT more than luck involved. 




Catherine602 said:


> Women are encouraged to ask for what they want and tell their husband what feels good etc. How many times have I read, "I'll do anything she wants but she does not tell me".
> 
> Yet one small request like "please don't mash my breast" seems an unwarranted restriction. Isn't requesting to be touched in a way that feels good asking for what is wanted? It is a simple request to be sensitive to the needs of a partner without resentment or complaining that it's no big deal.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Fozzy,

I firmly believe that touch falls into 3 buckets - and the person being touched has absolute say over what bucket each touch falls into:

- Unwanted: Whether by word or body language, the recipient clearly dislikes what you are doing.

- Tolerated: Be careful with this. The line between good natured tolerance and quiet resentment is both blurry and dangerous.

- Positive: The body language associated with positive touch is unmistakable. And it's often reinforced with a happy sigh, or an encouraging comment 'that feels so nice'.

And if you really can't tell whether they like it - ASK. Do you like that? 






Fozzy said:


> I think there is a lot of overlap in some people's minds between fondling and groping. Can you clarify where you feel the distinction is made?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

As'laDain said:


> The short answer is that I changed, and she changed because I changed.
> 
> 
> The long answer would merit it's own thread.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I was verging on leaving my marriage because of sexual issues. A close friend took me out to a bar during that time. She pretty much saw me at my lowest point that night. The barman who offered to take me to his place and put a smile back on my face, also saw it. Needless to say, there was nothing tempting or alluring about that offer. I didn't want random sex or to feel sexy with a stranger. I wanted to feel sexy with the man I was in love with and share that with him.

Yesterday my friend recalled that night out. She was single at the time; now she's married with a baby. We talked about how things have changed since then. I shared how I couldn't see my own sh!t at the time. To my husband's credit, he stepped up to work on what was happening between us. It took me a while to recognize the big part I was playing in the dynamic and things I needed to face about myself - not surprisingly, still am. 

Being a good friend, she noted there were various paths I could have taken and she would have been in my corner. She thinks highly of my husband and continued that she's proud of both of us for facing our issues and working on our marriage together. It's all part of learning. I would have needed to learn this stuff at some point, as would he. I'm glad we were able to do so together and benefit our marriage as a result.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

I can't say I feel groped by my husband. 

I do respond positively to his touch. It can be playful, loving, sensual, sexual, unexpected. It's something I welcome. 

Sometimes he will say 'I love this bit' as he touches me... knowing this, I play into it.


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## NotEasy (Apr 19, 2015)

Fozzy said:


> I think there is a lot of overlap in some people's minds between fondling and groping. Can you clarify where you feel the distinction is made?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Where? The distinction is made in the mind of the recipient. 

Softer touches might more often be considered more as fondling. Harder, unexpected grabs, concentrating largely on erogenuos zones might be considered more as groping. But at its most frustating the same touch could be considered fondling or groping.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Catherine602 said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> It comes down to not understanding the normal influence of gender on behavior and emotions. Wouldn't it be great if we had a required college course entitled "Men and women; culture and biology to help us understand and accept our basic natures.


Only one problem, the male section is 1 to 3 chapters and can be covered in an afternoon seminar. The female part is 500 chapters and worthy of a Masters degree


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

MEM2020 said:


> Catherine,
> We had the same blowup in year one of our marriage. It was the first time that M2 ever looked at me in a decidedly homicidal manner. And I'm not really joking about that.
> 
> It's also true that it instantly dawned on me that I was damaging the marriage by touching her in a way she disliked. I immediately and permanently stopped - groping - her.
> ...


I was just thinking about this. We made so many of the common mistakes people make in the early years of a LTR. It could easily have begun a pattern for long lasting problems without us realizing it. 

That's why its nice to have people around who will sound a warning bell when they see a trap door opening up. Not that it is easy to see the warning as valid. The best thing to do is to think in terms of a win-win. 

Don't let the balance in the relationship fail too long or too frequently. I realize that we were able to skirt minefields by pure dumb luck. We have mostly complimentary strengths and deficits. But it can be done consciously with the right info.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

There is a lot of humorous commentary about female complexity. 

Oddly enough this particular topic - groping - is at most at an 8th grade level and yet it seems like a common problem. 




anonmd said:


> Only one problem, the male section is 1 to 3 chapters and can be covered in an afternoon seminar. The female part is 500 chapters and worthy of a Masters degree


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> There is a lot of humorous commentary about female complexity.
> 
> Oddly enough this particular topic - groping - is at most at an 8th grade level and yet it seems like a common problem.


So, if it was so simple why'd it take a 'near homicidal look' after being together what, presumably a couple years + if it was in year 1 of marriage?


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> There is a lot of humorous commentary about female complexity.
> 
> Oddly enough this particular topic - groping - is at most at an 8th grade level and yet it seems like a common problem.


The problem isn't that women are too complex for men to understand, problem is that the information men get regarding how to please us sexually comes from porn, old wives tales or some other media. Society gives men this "one size fits all" scenario to follow then when it doesn't work we get "gee you are too complex". Porn teaches men to touch women only on their breasts and crotch because we supposedly love it and crave it in every situation and time of day. Not true.

What makes it worse is that girls aren't allowed to discover anything about THEIR OWN BODIES without being shamed for being " unladylike". Boys are encouraged to be sexual, girls are sexually acted upon. Girls are taught how to cover every aspect of their sexual being all of their lives until marriage, then that is when the inner sex vixen is supposed to pop out. Boys are encouraged to behave sexually by the "boys will be boys" beliefs, girls just gotta cover up or tough luck.

So, no wonder men grope and women cringe. I don't like being touched on my breasts, ass or crotch in random situations, especially not in public, I would walk off and never come back.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Poor body language reading skills on my part.

That's just the truth of it. But it only took one very direct conversation in words. 

And fwiw it hadn't been going on for years. It was a newlywed entitlement thing. 






anonmd said:


> So, if it was so simple why'd it take a 'near homicidal look' after being together what, presumably a couple years + if it was in year 1 of marriage?


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Consider yourself lucky that she, you know, opened her mouth! There is a perhaps more common practice of not saying a word and expecting telepathy to do the job.I'm happy to do, or not do most anything I'm made aware of.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Yes - the quality of info is much higher today. If you know where to look.





Catherine602 said:


> I was just thinking about this. We made so many of the common mistakes people make in the early years of a LTR. It could easily have begun a pattern for long lasting problems without us realizing it.
> 
> That's why its nice to have people around who will sound a warning bell when they see a trap door opening up. Not that it is easy to see the warning as valid. The best thing to do is to think in terms of a win-win.
> 
> Don't let the balance in the relationship fail too long or too frequently. I realize that we were able to skirt minefields by pure dumb luck. We have mostly complimentary strengths and deficits. But it can be done consciously with the right info.


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## NotEasy (Apr 19, 2015)

NotEasy said:


> Fozzy said:
> 
> 
> > I think there is a lot of overlap in some people's minds between fondling and groping. Can you clarify where you feel the distinction is made?
> ...


Hopefully my post didn't come accross as me being a smart-arse. That wasn't my intention. I do understand you wanted a distinction to be drawn between actions that are fondling and those that are groping. It is a common need when someone gets accused of groping when they thought they were fondling. 

I don't think there is a clear answer like you seek, particularly there is not a clear answer for all time. You might get an answer by discussing with your spouse (once things calm down), but I can almost guarantee the answer will go out of date. And personally, I did ask and we reached no precise answer, just don't be so rough and unexpected.

My answer came from workplace harassment training. Harassment is anything the person, or a reasonable person, considers harassment. So the distinction is made in the mind of the recipient.
And the guideline given for males was zero physical contact with any female after shaking their hand in the job interview. Don't think you should apply that here or to marriage.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

NotEasy said:


> And the guideline given for males was zero physical contact with any female after shaking their hand in the job interview. *Don't think you should apply that here or to marriage*.


Agreed, but at the same time, I don't think that being married or even in a committed relationship _automatically*_ gives anyone the freedom to touch WHENEVER and HOWEVER _they_ want to touch. (*considering how many people do this, could it be considered another 'covert contract'?)

It seems kind of silly to _ask_ your partner if they want a hug or a kiss or if you can give them a hug or a kiss. At the same time, what if our partner doesn't want a hug or a kiss _at that moment_? My late husband seemed to want hugs at times that were inconvenient, such as, when I had an armful of groceries (literally, like 5 bags dangling from each arm) or immediately after I was p*ssed off at him. He would protest that I 'should' ALWAYS want to hug him and ALWAYS want to kiss him. No. Matter. What. 

Um.............no. 

Wow. Writing this just reminded me of a memory from my teen years. When I was 18, I occasionally hung out with a few friends from high school. One of my friends told me that she used to hang out at a bar near West Point in NY. She said that she and some other friends met some cadets there, and they each had the same experience with the cadets. If the cadet wanted to hold their hand, he would seek _permission_ by asking , "May I hold your hand _please_?" Same with hugging and kissing (as in, a first kiss). She said she always felt very respected when they did that.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Agree that everyone has a right to bodily integrity. Being married is does not forfeit one's right to say "no" to being touched and to have that no respected.

Still, the process of consenting to touch can get very complicated for victims of sexual abuse. They may be "wired" to prefer action over talking. However, they have been conditioned by abuse to be terrified of unexpected touches. So their internal signals conflict. They find "asking first" to be unattractive (lacks confidence to just go for it), but they find NOT "asking first" creates extreme fear / anxiety so their reflex is to shut down unexpected touching.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

NotEasy said:


> Where? The distinction is made in the mind of the recipient.
> 
> Softer touches might more often be considered more as fondling. Harder, unexpected grabs, concentrating largely on erogenuos zones might be considered more as groping. But at its most frustating the same touch could be considered fondling or groping.


I'm fully on board with "don't do it if she doesn't like it". My point was more to illustrate the confusion with terminology. For some people groping automatically means unwanted touching vs fondling meaning wanted touching. However there are posts by women in this very thread that equate groping with wanted touch. I think it's difficult to have a meaningful conversation about a loaded topic when we can't agree on what the terminology means.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

It's an issue of interpretation. When my wife and I got married, she interpreted pretty much all of my touches in a negative light. I worked hard at communicating what I felt when I took pleasure in her body. 

I worked very hard at letting her know that i loved her and accepted her as well. 99.9% of that communication had absolutely nothing to do with sex.

In case anyone thinks I got lucky in the fact that I am married to a woman who is very sexually open with me, you should know that she was sexually abused by her DNA doner (bio father). We dealt with all the issues that are common with CSA.

Knowing that didn't really change my approach much. I didn't care WHY she felt the way she did or why she saw things the way she did. I changed the way I saw her, and she changed the way she viewed me and sex. She literally changed the way she emotionally responds to me. I got DEEP into her mind, I let her DEEP into mine, and nowadays if I am not randomly reaching my hand down her pants, and she is not randomly bending over and wriggling in front of me to entice me, we both start asking if something is wrong. 

It all starts with how you view things. Do you love someone enough to walk with them through their pain? If not, then don't ask them to heal. Are you willing to change? If not, then don't ask them to change.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

if people were consistent, this would be easy.

the problem in these cases is that "groping" is fine until it's not. 

if the "groping" was offensive from the beginning, the relationship wouldn't have gone anywhere.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Anon1111 said:


> if people were consistent, this would be easy.
> 
> the problem in these cases is that "groping" is fine until it's not.
> 
> if the "groping" was offensive from the beginning, the relationship wouldn't have gone anywhere.


Groping was extremely offensive to my wife in the beginning. Our relationship certainly whent somewhere. Groping, overt, sexually charged, is now something we both enjoy from each other very much.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Anon1111 said:


> if people were consistent, this would be easy.
> 
> the problem in these cases is that "groping" is fine until it's not.
> 
> if the "groping" was offensive from the beginning, the relationship wouldn't have gone anywhere.


A love of groping is now on the list of desired traits for men to decide if a woman is worthy of notice? This list is getting so long that only about 500 women, all living in LA, would make the cut.


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## CantePe (Oct 5, 2011)

As'laDain said:


> It's an issue of interpretation. When my wife and I got married, she interpreted pretty much all of my touches in a negative light. I worked hard at communicating what I felt when I took pleasure in her body.
> 
> I worked very hard at letting her know that i loved her and accepted her as well. 99.9% of that communication had absolutely nothing to do with sex.
> 
> ...


I have to say, as a CSA survivor myself, I give you a standing ovation. Your wife has a fantastic husband.

Thank you, just simply thank you.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> A love of groping is now on the list of desired traits for men to decide if a woman is worthy of notice? This list is getting so long that only about 500 women, all living in LA, would make the cut.


my point was that the groping likely starts early on in the relationship.

maybe the girls actually likes it in the beginning, maybe not. either way, she doesn't say anything because she wants to play nice.

then, later, once commitment is solidified, the issue is raised.

so it is really in a sense a communication issue


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

CantePe said:


> I have to say, as a CSA survivor myself, I give you a standing ovation. Your wife has a fantastic husband.
> 
> Thank you, just simply thank you.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


Lol, still I gotta say, had I known then what I know now...

I would have figured it out sooner. 

I love her to death. The funny thing is that it was easier for me to believe in her than it was to convince her to believe in herself. I had faith in her, but I had to get off my behind and go into action in order to see the things in her that I believed in. I liken it to a dog that is bleeding to death.

When someone is hemorrhaging emotionally, accept the fact that you will likely get bit when you try to apply the tournequit. I wouldnt blame a dog for biting me because I know it hurts like hell. Likewise, I couldn't blame my wife for lashing out at me with such fierceness as she did. I knew it had to hurt like hell. If you aren't completely ok with getting bit, and viciously so, then don't even bother trying. You are just going to fail, and they will still be left bleeding out, but in an even worse place than before.

As far as I can tell, believing that people can change while lacking the motivation amd fortitude to be a driving factor of change is no different than believing that people cannot change. It's like having faith in the goodness of people but refusing to be one of the people that show goodness. 

Thank you for your kind words. Though I gotta say, I have a fantastic wife. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

@Anon1111 I know what you mean. 

Kneading body parts for the sexual enjoyment seems crude and rude to me. The groper does not ask permission to turn admiration from afar into a full on grab of sensitive intimate parts with the intent to reshape them. 

Women may not say anything about a lot of things in the early stages of the relationship for various reason. Silence should not be taken for rapture. They eventually find their voices and try to tell their partner what they want.

If she meets with resistance and resentment then she won't say anything. So many men say that they will do anything to please their wives after they withdraw. I wonder if they inadvertently missed conveying that when she was still engaged. 

Actually this is an important topic because it highlights the challenges of taking the long view when you are young and living in the moment with no idea of what it takes to make or break the sexual part of the relationship. 

When we got married and lived together, the sexual dynamic changed. We had privacy and time to do whatever we wanted. That is the real start of the sexual relationship. It is unencumbered by the restraints of opportunity. 

What was ok in small doses can seem too much several times a day. You can really get to know each other sexually. But it may not be the discovery phase if one person is not allowed to choose what happens to them. That person stops asking and try's to like what is done. After a while, they run out of steam. 

I was a good girl, Catholic school, nuns, the full treatment. Frustratingly inhibited. My husband was smart, he backed off and slowed down. I have a feeling he spoke with his father but I don't want to know. 

Anyway, it took me time to enjoy the variety of items on the sexual menu but I did it. Much of it was due to the patience of my husband and a hedonistic side of me that I did not know was there.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> my point was that the groping likely starts early on in the relationship.
> 
> maybe the girls actually likes it in the beginning, maybe not. either way, she doesn't say anything because she wants to play nice.
> 
> ...


Maybe guys don't grope in the dating stage because they are more respectful and romantic. Maybe they only start to do so when they live together and get comfortable farting all the time. And maybe the groping starts to come fast and furious while she's knee-deep in dishes and breast pumps and he comes up behind her grabbing and groping. And maybe he expects her to be ready and willing for groping despite her feeling resentful that he's got all this time to grope and no time to run to the grocery store...

Just saying, there are a lot of reasons why a welcome activity can become unwelcome, or why it wasn't a problem before but can become one after marriage, and we really can't make blanket statements like commitment on its own _causes _these problems or that women capriciously just changed their minds about it or stopped playing along.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

norajane said:


> Maybe guys don't grope in the dating stage because they are more respectful and romantic. Maybe they only start to do so when they live together and get comfortable farting all the time. And maybe the groping starts to come fast and furious while she's knee-deep in dishes and breast pumps and he comes up behind her grabbing and groping. And maybe he expects her to be ready and willing for groping despite her feeling resentful that he's got all this time to grope and no time to run to the grocery store...
> 
> Just saying, there are a lot of reasons why a welcome activity can become unwelcome, or why it wasn't a problem before but can become one after marriage, and we really can't make blanket statements like commitment on its own _causes _these problems or that women capriciously just changed their minds about it or stopped playing along.


I don't think it's capricious.

I think it's about comfort level discussing different topics and doing different things.

Unfortunately, this comfort level develops at different paces for different people.

So the guy might think, cool, now I'm with this girl all of the time and we really like each other-- we can finally be all over each other and it will be great.

And maybe the girl thinks-- this guy is so nice, I can finally tell him that I don't want to be mauled all of the time and he will get it-- unlike the last 3 guys I was with.

Then each of them is a little disappointed because they were not on the same page.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> my point was that the groping likely starts early on in the relationship.


Whether groping starts in the beginning of a relationship or later on, why does groping start _*AT ALL*_???


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Vega said:


> Whether groping starts in the beginning of a relationship or later on, why does groping start _*AT ALL*_???


some people connect better though physical touch.

my son, who is non-verbal, will lay his face right on top of mine. literally cheek to cheek.

it is his way of connecting.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Vega said:


> Whether groping starts in the beginning of a relationship or later on, why does groping start _*AT ALL*_???


Some of what my husband does might be called groping. I will hug him while he is seated, and he will reach into my shirt. Or slap my playfully on the behind. I'm ok with that. It is like saying Hi, or be closer. He used to walk up to me and grab a handful of boob. I was like, how unsexy is THAT?? So he stopped. For him it was playful like the butt smack. What he does not seem to fully understand is what feels fantastic when I am ramped up HURTS when I am not!


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> some people connect better though physical touch.
> 
> my son, who is non-verbal, will lay his face right on top of mine. literally cheek to cheek.
> 
> it is his way of connecting.


But groping is a certain _kind_ of physical touch. If your son slapped you across the face, would you say that he was only trying to get your attention? If I grabbed my husband's nuts and twisted them, can I say that I'm just trying to physically 'connect' with him? When my late husband slapped me on the arm to get me to look at something, was he also trying to physically "connect" with me? Funny. He didn't do that while we were dating.

Chances are, a man doesn't grope a woman during the dating process. But at some point in the relationship, he decides that he it's ok for him to do so.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> *Some of what my husband does might be called groping. I will hug him while he is seated, and he will reach into my shirt. Or slap my playfully on the behind*. !


Would you be ok with him doing this in front of his friends?

How about in front of your own family? 

In front of your teenage children?

Seems that some men believe that it's o.k anytime, anywhere.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Vega said:


> But groping is a certain _kind_ of physical touch. If your son slapped you across the face, would you say that he was only trying to get your attention? If I grabbed my husband's nuts and twisted them, can I say that I'm just trying to physically 'connect' with him? When my late husband slapped me on the arm to get me to look at something, was he also trying to physically "connect" with me? Funny. He didn't do that while we were dating.
> 
> Chances are, a man doesn't grope a woman during the dating process. But at some point in the relationship, he decides that he it's ok for him to do so.


My husband did not "grope" me when we were dating. It was not until he felt safe with me that he expressed himself that way.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> Some of what my husband does might be called groping. I will hug him while he is seated, and he will reach into my shirt. Or slap my playfully on the behind. I'm ok with that. It is like saying Hi, or be closer. He used to walk up to me and grab a handful of boob. I was like, how unsexy is THAT?? So he stopped. For him it was playful like the butt smack. What he does not seem to fully understand is what feels fantastic when I am ramped up HURTS when I am not!


This is what is hard to understand unless you communicate it. We're not like that, at all. I'd guess when you were dating you'd tend to be more 'ramped up' as you say when it came time to touch.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

norajane said:


> And maybe he expects her to be ready and willing for groping despite her feeling resentful that he's got all this time to grope and no time to run to the grocery store...


For him:
grocery store = boring public space with tedious job that he has no interest in, with stressors navigating traffic, carts, queues, large selection of random brands. Where's the emotional feedback? where's the job finished? where's the goal line? where's the cheering crowd?

groping = instant hormonal rush, physical connection with physical life objective, emotive connection and response (a negative one is better than nothing), immediate tactile rush (surface and curve factor 110%!), heart rate up 20%, dopamine well up, massive sense of accomplishment going from "viewing" zone to "touching" zone. With that massive feeling of opportunity for more.
(and the dishes just act as a mild form of bondage kink that adds excitement).

yes I wonder why the grocery store (and domestic chores) loses out.

It's almost as if woman don't seem to realise how much having emotional and physical connection with a lover is the ultimate feeling in life, and makes a person feel so alive. In this case with a man it is usually having that connection and time with his girlfriend/wife, which is possibly because she's always been connected with herself and never need to chase such a wonderful goal, having owned that person and body for her whole life and thus been able to take it for granted/use it as a tool.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

...


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

spotthedeaddog said:


> groping = instant hormonal rush, physical connection with physical life objective, emotive connection and response (a negative one is better than nothing), immediate tactile rush (surface and curve factor 110%!), heart rate up 20%, dopamine well up, massive sense of accomplishment going from "viewing" zone to "touching" zone. With that massive feeling of opportunity for more.
> (and the dishes just act as a mild form of bondage kink that adds excitement).
> 
> 
> It's almost as if woman don't seem to realise how much having emotional and physical connection with a lover is the ultimate feeling in life, and makes a person feel so alive. In this case with a man it is usually having that connection and time with his girlfriend/wife, which is possibly because she's always been connected with herself and never need to chase such a wonderful goal, having owned that person and body for her whole life and thus been able to take it for granted/use it as a tool.


Ask yourself why can't your beloved wife chose what kind of touch turns her on? Why does she need to have a negative experience so you get a positive one? You care for all of her not just the gropable bits? 

Why is it so difficult for you to see that a preference not to be groped should be honored. No justification needs to be given except that the practice is not erotic for the gropee. Google searches confirming the positive aspect of it and resentment will only hurt the relationship. 

There are many ways of touching so its easy to find one that is satisfactory alternative that brings pleasure to you and your wife.

Please explain why you feel that groping is so important to you. How can you get a tactile rush by doing something that your partner does not like? 

I'm trying to understand because there are so many of this type. An insistence that a wife's choice carries far less influence on the sexual relationship. 

The usual justification is that the act is important for the man emotional wellbeing. It's true for major common sexual practices but groping does not seem to rise to that level.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

spotthedeaddog said:


> For him:
> grocery store = boring public space with tedious job that he has no interest in, with stressors navigating traffic, carts, queues, large selection of random brands. Where's the emotional feedback? where's the job finished? where's the goal line? where's the cheering crowd?
> 
> groping = instant hormonal rush, physical connection with physical life objective, emotive connection and response (a negative one is better than nothing), immediate tactile rush (surface and curve factor 110%!), heart rate up 20%, dopamine well up, massive sense of accomplishment going from "viewing" zone to "touching" zone. With that massive feeling of opportunity for more.
> ...


The point wasn't the grocery store, or choosing one over the other. The point was the *resentment *she might already feel toward him, resentment that has developed over a period of time due to the dynamics of their relationship (such as him never having time to get groceries so she is always stuck with navigating the stress of traffic, etc), the resentment that turns fun fondling into unwanted groping in the mind of the receiver.



> It's almost as if woman don't seem to realise how much having emotional and physical connection with a lover is the ultimate feeling in life, and makes a person feel so alive.* In this case with a man it is usually having that connection and time with his girlfriend/wife, which is possibly because she's always been connected with herself and never need to chase such a wonderful goal, having owned that person and body for her whole life and thus been able to take it for granted/use it as a tool.*


What does that mean? I don't understand what you're saying.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

From the first few dates, touch was an important connector between us. We'd be touching in some way as much as possible. It was more of a sensual and erotic touch... our first date, he fed me strawberries and we teased each other with eye contact. We could spend all-night touching, caressing, exciting, playing, loving, learning each others body. The flashes, caresses, kisses, unexpected touches through out the day or while out, was all part of this connection and closeness. 

Non-sexual touch is also important to both of us. Riding in a car we'd be holding hands. He would stroke my hair as I fell asleep. Hugs, arms around each other, and non-sexual massage. I was studying to be a massage therapist and regularly gave him massages which he loved. I taught him how to massage me just as well in return. Over the years I underestimated what non-sexual touch means to him, and us, along with the sexual. 

The amount we touch has lessened from those days. However if we're watching TV together, he will outstretch his hand for mine. As simple as that action sounds, it has led to sex on the sofa. The other morning I was out front in our driveway; he knew I wasn't wearing a bra. He was saying bye from his car when he playfully lifted my shirt, had a feel and kiss then drove away.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

I would hope he was trying to explain rather than refusing to listen. Sounded like a pretty good explanation of male thought processes unencumbered by feedback to the contrary to me. 

You can certainly ask, indeed expect the male not to do it if you don't like it and teach him what you do like. You can not expect him to think like a woman. 

BTW, is there some universal instruction manual for what women like? I haven't come across it yet 





Catherine602 said:


> Ask yourself why can't your beloved wife chose what kind of touch turns her on? Why does she need to have a negative experience so you get a positive one? You care for all of her not just the gropable bits?
> 
> Why is it so difficult for you to see that a preference not to be groped should be honored. No justification needs to be given except that the practice is not erotic for the gropee. Google searches confirming the positive aspect of it and resentment will only hurt the relationship.
> 
> ...


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

...


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

anonmd said:


> *Sounded like a pretty good explanation of male thought processes *unencumbered by feedback to the contrary to me.


Oh Dear Lord, I certainly hope _not_...


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Personal said:


> I give my wife massages as well, although never as often as she likes. While she doesn't give me any, simply because I am not a fan of receiving them.
> 
> By the way all of your post paints a wonderful picture.
> 
> Cheers...


There's always room for more massage! They don't happen with us as often we'd like either but we're working on it. Hubs gave me a back and foot massage the other night.... so good. 

Thanks for the kind words. We're a work in progress.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

heartsbeating said:


> From the first few dates, touch was an important connector between us. We'd be touching in some way as much as possible. It was more of a sensual and erotic touch... our first date, he fed me strawberries and we teased each other with eye contact. We could spend all-night touching, caressing, exciting, playing, loving, learning each others body. The flashes, caresses, kisses, unexpected touches through out the day or while out, was all part of this connection and closeness.
> 
> Non-sexual touch is also important to both of us. Riding in a car we'd be holding hands. He would stroke my hair as I fell asleep. Hugs, arms around each other, and non-sexual massage. I was studying to be a massage therapist and regularly gave him massages which he loved. I taught him how to massage me just as well in return. Over the years I underestimated what non-sexual touch means to him, and us, along with the sexual.
> 
> The amount we touch has lessened from those days. However if we're watching TV together, he will outstretch his hand for mine. As simple as that action sounds, it has led to sex on the sofa. The other morning I was out front in our driveway; he knew I wasn't wearing a bra. He was saying bye from his car when he playfully lifted my shirt, had a feel and kiss then drove away.


We hold hands everywhere we go, we always cuddle on the couch, touch each others leg while the other drives, kiss and hug often. Massages here always lead to sex but it is a good thing bc he puts in so much effort and I know that it is a pre cursor to sex, he does not hide that but I know that I have the right of refusal if that is my choice.

Recently got back from a fabulous holiday and out of all the couples there we were the only ones that touched, held hands and hugged often. Everyone is different but luckily we are both very big on touch.
In public it is all very respectful but at home he will come up behind me and hold my boobs or pinch my arse, I love it, love the attention and enjoy his enjoyment of being free enough to feel my body when he wants to. I do the same to him which he encourages.

If I didn't like him then I would not want him to touch me, it is that simple for me. I adore him and love the cheeky look on his face when he cops a feel. 

If you stop and observe other people out in public not that many seem to hold hands which I find a bit sad.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

bilbag said:


> How much groping is too much? I see flesh and I can't help it. Nice legs when she wears shorts, her lower back when her shirt rises, her open shoulders, her neck, and so on. I would think it is normal to touch your wife. She disagrees. How does it work for your marriage? Should it be saved mainly for the bedroom, hands/lips off otherwise?


I haven't read the whole thread yet but I have to respond to this.

In my case it would be NONE.

I hate - did I mention HATE? - being groped. It is so dehumanizing to me. You describe the things that are turning you on - and it's nice that you are attracted to your wife -- but note that everything you describe is impersonal. It's just a visually stimulating body part to you. It could be anyone. That may be a lot of what she hates about it.

Now the poster directly below your first post who suggested it may be how you do it - try kissing her neck and giving a gentle hug - is onto something. If I feel my husband sees ME as a person and not just breasts and thighs, I'm more receptive.

Part of it too may be a physical difference between women and men. Women usually need to be emotionally turned on before they get physically turned on. Being groped out of the blue is kind of like having a bucket of ice water thrown at you -- it's like WTF? Can I not relax in my own home? Can I not walk by you and feel safe and remain unmolested? Can you never touch me lovingly and affectionately without it turning into sexual probing and groping? Get the F OFF ME!!!!!!!!!! (Ha ha I'm getting worked up just thinking about it.)

Another problem is - you say you can't help but grope. I'm guessing that every single time she lets you grope you get more turned on and want sex right then and there. And if you're the kind who feels he "must" grope maybe you're also the type to pout and get surly when she doesn't want to put out at a minutes notice. IDK, but if that's the case, she probably does not want to let you grope because then you want sex and she's a woman who does not go from 0 to Sexty at the sight of flesh.

I kept trying to explain to my H how offensive I find it when he gropes, pokes, prods, etc - but he didn't get it 'till I started grabbing his nipples and penis right after sex. (some guys would probably still like that, but it seemed to actually change his perspective.)


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

notmyrealname4 said:


> One thing I never liked was wanting his arms around me and a nice snuggle, and within 15 seconds one of my nipples was being pinched and two fingers were searching around in my undies.


I HATE that.

Tough I will say, 15 seconds is actually quite a bit of restraint compared to most men I've known.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

Mr. Nail said:


> On this topic over the past 2 weeks, I've been touched a lot. Mostly at Home but a little outside. I love it. It is sending me a love message. Not a Sex message. ...


But is that touch GROPING - like she walks up and grabs your crotch or a nipple? Or is it affectionate touch like a hug, hand on the shoulder, leaning against you, etc?


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

MrsHolland said:


> We hold hands everywhere we go, we always cuddle on the couch, touch each others leg while the other drives, kiss and hug often. ....


I love reading about your marriage - you are an inspiration. I was scrolling up and read the part I quoted and I thought - I bet that's Mrs. Holland...

I would say though, none of what you describe sounds like groping. The men whose wive's resent being groped would probably find more receptive wives if they held hands everywhere, cuddled on the couch (without grabbing at breasts and crotches), touched hands and legs while driving, kissed and hugged often (again without grabbing at breasts and crotches).

And a massage turning to sex - well, that sounds nice. Certainly a lot less jarring than having someone reach for your nipples while you're pouring yourself a cup of coffee, or shoving their finger between your but cheeks every time you walk up the stairs in front of them. (Yes, I'm emotionally scarred! ha ha)


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

WorkingWife said:


> But is that touch GROPING - like she walks up and grabs your crotch or a nipple? Or is it affectionate touch like a hug, hand on the shoulder, leaning against you, etc?


Right for the anal crevice, as quickly as she can get there. And there is no kind of affirmative consent either. But then again I'm not determined to be offended by her, I save that for telemarketers.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

Catherine602 said:


> Ask yourself why can't your beloved wife chose what kind of touch turns her on? Why does she need to have a negative experience so you get a positive one? You care for all of her not just the gropable bits?
> 
> Why is it so difficult for you to see that a preference not to be groped should be honored. No justification needs to be given except that the practice is not erotic for the gropee. Google searches confirming the positive aspect of it and resentment will only hurt the relationship.
> 
> ...


you need to work on not projecting, and trying to understand what the other person has said


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

Catherine602 said:


> Ask yourself why can't your beloved wife chose what kind of touch turns her on? Why does she need to have a negative experience so you get a positive one? You care for all of her not just the gropable bits?
> 
> Why is it so difficult for you to see that a preference not to be groped should be honored. No justification needs to be given except that the practice is not erotic for the gropee. Google searches confirming the positive aspect of it and resentment will only hurt the relationship.
> 
> ...





norajane said:


> The point wasn't the grocery store, or choosing one over the other. The point was the *resentment *she might already feel toward him, resentment that has developed over a period of time due to the dynamics of their relationship (such as him never having time to get groceries so she is always stuck with navigating the stress of traffic, etc), the resentment that turns fun fondling into unwanted groping in the mind of the receiver.
> .


"The resentment" took time - and I assume you the grocery store hasn't got any more interesting over any of that time.

For him, he resents that the dishes and grocery store rate more highly than fun. Eventually he'll give up and concentrate on his own boring things, leaving her resentful and wondering why there is no fun.



> > It's almost as if woman don't seem to realise how much having emotional and physical connection with a lover is the ultimate feeling in life, and makes a person feel so alive. In this case with a man it is usually having that connection and time with his girlfriend/wife, which is possibly because she's always been connected with herself and never need to chase such a wonderful goal, having owned that person and body for her whole life and thus been able to take it for granted/use it as a tool.
> 
> 
> What does that mean? I don't understand what you're saying


Sorry multi-quote isn't working so well.
Do you understand what a man seeks in life?


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

Vega said:


> Oh Dear Lord, I certainly hope _not_...


Things sound pretty rough when they have the social niceties stripped away, but that's the bonus of putting these things in a neutral equal place.

It is often surprising just how much men go on instinct and with a vague hope that things will be better in the end. Through in beer, physical lusting, some form of hunting (whether it be physical or academic), that's about it. Especially the lusting and having a lovely partner to share life with and lust around with. But what a lot of people don't realise is the amount of intuition and instinct goes on and how much "the hunting group/tribe/family" (as a _group_) is key to the drives involved.

Woman will often have very pragmatic aims, but more vague reasoning.
Where men tend to be the other way around vague in the overall task, but , like I'm doing now, mansplaining the reasoning.

Thus knowing this helps people unwind what the heck is going through the other persons head/heart.

She sees dishes making her space uncomfortable - he generally isn't invested in the space so gets upset/resentful for chores over fun. UNLESS he's one of those people who is very orderly, then, now having insight into the motivation, you can understand that the male space lover will have reason for that which ties to a personal aspect.
For her it's smooth living and just reasonable to pick up what's needed on the way home/splitting the workload....but that usually results in her moving on to other reasonable (and un-fun) things. But that's because for her relaxing and enjoying company occurs once everything else is dealt with ... but some women deal with this by just shutting off the chores and going and having fun. By understanding the motivator and why, the other persons reaction is far more understandable.

for those who don't like being groped - sometimes they're just not tactile people. Sometimes they're introverts so it's a serious invasion of their personal bubble. sometimes they're annoyed and get someone unannoyed is _really_ hard. sometimes they need to pee/lie down/do a lot of jobs/stressed/feeling rundown. Not everyone is a tactile extrovert all the time - and as I keep saying "what's in it for them".... cause if you haven't thought about that, who are you satisfying?


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

I'm an introvert, which doesn't have anything to do with tactical feel. I know some others who are also quite sexual/intimate.

Each their own, what works for one couple - may not work for another.

With my wife - she does like it when I kiss the back of her neck, which maybe when she's cooking in the kitchen. Giving her hugs or squeeze doesn't mean **GIVE ME SEX**, and its not dehumanizing. Understandable that some guys (And women) are like that.

When it comes to my wife, she is more likely to grope me and play with my privates than the other way around (in a non-bed room setting).

For many people, touching is a form of intimacy communication.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

Mr. Nail said:


> Right for the anal crevice, as quickly as she can get there. And there is no kind of affirmative consent either. But then again I'm not determined to be offended by her, I save that for telemarketers.


LOL, well that is great that it works for you. Every cell in my body is tensing up right now just reading that - especially those around my anal crevice which my H has learned never to unexpectedly shove his fingers (or iphone or tablet or whatever object is currently in his hand) into.

Your body must be wired very differently than mine. It's not a matter of being determined to be offended, it's a matter of experiencing a viscerally negative reaction to the invasive, threatening sensation happening out of the blue - and being taken over with an involuntary fight or flight reaction. (I've learned that fight is the only affective choice, flight only seems to encourage predator instincts.)

Every guy I've had a long term relationship with has been inclined to grope. When I was young I just smiled like an idiot and pretended to dig it. I guess I didn't want to bruise my guy's ego. But as I got older, and I heard more and more women mentioning how much they hated it, I finally admitted to myself that I did not like it either. Once I acknowledged this the truth came flooding out from my subconscious - I hated, hated hated being groped out of the blue and I got serious and let my H know. It took a few times telling him but he's totally stopped it now. Ah, it's such a peaceful existence.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

WorkingWife said:


> Every guy I've had a long term relationship with has been inclined to grope. When I was young I just smiled like an idiot and pretended to dig it. I guess I didn't want to bruise my guy's ego. But as I got older, and I heard more and more women mentioning how much they hated it, I finally admitted to myself that I did not like it either. Once I acknowledged this the truth came flooding out from my subconscious - I hated, hated hated being groped out of the blue and I got serious and let my H know. It took a few times telling him but he's totally stopped it now. Ah, it's such a peaceful existence.


See, you pretended to like it for how many years? Took a few times and he stopped. Women, stop being frikkin coy and obtuse:smile2:


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

anonmd said:


> See, you pretended to like it for how many years? Took a few times and he stopped. Women, stop being frikkin coy and obtuse:smile2:


This was different relationships over my lifetime. I pretended to like it in my 20-3 and early 30's.

I would say I agree with you except I was not being coy. I believed on a gut level that a woman who didn't like every sexual advance made by her guy was seen as "frigid" and with all the overt talk about frequent, casual sex in my generation, there were plenty of willing women to take her place. What guy would stick around with a woman who didn't like being groped constantly and having sex every day?

It was not coyness, it was insecurity and lack of self worth on my part. And also a desire not to hurt my guy's feelings.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

poida said:


> I suppose it is whatever she feels comfortable with. In your case, none.
> 
> Are you sure it isn't how you do it?
> 
> ...


*Kiss the nape of the neck first before proceeding!

Otherwise, if you grope first, you'll likely run the serious risk of having to later extricate your forcefully embedded head out of your anal cavity!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Working,
Excellent post. 

It's difficult to convey how incredibly positive a mutually enjoyable, high touch relationship is. 

M2 gets full credit for this outcome. She told me what felt good in year 1, twenty five plus years ago. And also said what felt bad. 

Maybe - being so alpha - this was easy for her. I don't know. Perhaps it was easier for her - seeing how distraught I was when she told me what felt bad, don't know. 

Funny thing about this - not only can I define exactly what she dislikes and why, it makes complete sense to me. And - it ALSO makes sense why she likes what I do now. 






WorkingWife said:


> LOL, well that is great that it works for you. Every cell in my body is tensing up right now just reading that - especially those around my anal crevice which my H has learned never to unexpectedly shove his fingers (or iphone or tablet or whatever object is currently in his hand) into.
> 
> Your body must be wired very differently than mine. It's not a matter of being determined to be offended, it's a matter of experiencing a viscerally negative reaction to the invasive, threatening sensation happening out of the blue - and being taken over with an involuntary fight or flight reaction. (I've learned that fight is the only affective choice, flight only seems to encourage predator instincts.)
> 
> Every guy I've had a long term relationship with has been inclined to grope. When I was young I just smiled like an idiot and pretended to dig it. I guess I didn't want to bruise my guy's ego. But as I got older, and I heard more and more women mentioning how much they hated it, I finally admitted to myself that I did not like it either. Once I acknowledged this the truth came flooding out from my subconscious - I hated, hated hated being groped out of the blue and I got serious and let my H know. It took a few times telling him but he's totally stopped it now. Ah, it's such a peaceful existence.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

WW,

This was seriously painful to read. Educational but painful. 






WorkingWife said:


> This was different relationships over my lifetime. I pretended to like it in my 20-3 and early 30's.
> 
> I would say I agree with you except I was not being coy. I believed on a gut level that a woman who didn't like every sexual advance made by her guy was seen as "frigid" and with all the overt talk about frequent, casual sex in my generation, there were plenty of willing women to take her place. What guy would stick around with a woman who didn't like being groped constantly and having sex every day?
> 
> It was not coyness, it was insecurity and lack of self worth on my part. And also a desire not to hurt my guy's feelings.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

WorkingWife said:


> This was different relationships over my lifetime. I pretended to like it in my 20-3 and early 30's.
> 
> I would say I agree with you except I was not being coy. I believed on a gut level that a woman who didn't like every sexual advance made by her guy was seen as "frigid" and with all the overt talk about frequent, casual sex in my generation, there were plenty of willing women to take her place. What guy would stick around with a woman who didn't like being groped constantly and having sex every day?
> 
> It was not coyness, it was insecurity and lack of self worth on my part. And also a desire not to hurt my guy's feelings.


So much of this seems to be wrapped up in upbringing. In my stupid years I at first thought that I had to lower myself to keep getting attention from males. It took a few stupid moments, maybe teenage rebellion was part of it but eventually the lessons of my upbringing shone through. I was never told that not putting out was akin to being frigid, I was always told that self respect and equality were important. 
My kids are taught about respect, for themselves and others. They know that it is wrong to be pressured or to pressure another into doing things they do not want to. That people are humans with feelings and the right to their own space and boundaries.

Honestly, reading your responses here is quite enlightening, I feel bad for you that this has been your experience. It is not right and it is no wonder you feel the way you do. 

MrH and I have a good balance but it started from a good place. He showed me caring and respect from very early on. He was honest about what he wanted (which at the start was not a serious relationship). In return i was honest with him, I was looking for a connection without strings. Regardless of the fact neither of us wanted a serious relationship we both expected to be treated with the utmost respect. 

So here is the irony that seems to wash over many men, the more safe and respected I felt the more I wanted him to have his hands all over me. You cannot just grab at a woman like a piece of meat if she feels unloved or disrespected, strangers do that to us and it is revolting. 
If you want a marriage where touching is welcome then treat your wife as a person not an object.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

QFT





MrsHolland said:


> So much of this seems to be wrapped up in upbringing. In my stupid years I at first thought that I had to lower myself to keep getting attention from males. It took a few stupid moments, maybe teenage rebellion was part of it but eventually the lessons of my upbringing shone through. I was never told that not putting out was akin to being frigid, I was always told that self respect and equality were important.
> My kids are taught about respect, for themselves and others. They know that it is wrong to be pressured or to pressure another into doing things they do not want to. That people are humans with feelings and the right to their own space and boundaries.
> 
> Honestly, reading your responses here is quite enlightening, I feel bad for you that this has been your experience. It is not right and it is no wonder you feel the way you do.
> ...


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

And even if you do, show your wife respect respect and refrain from groping, it does not always end up with a wife who welcomes physical touch. Sometimes you just end up on opposite sides of the bed without touching at all.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Yes, but sometimes you have a wife who is pleasantly surprised that you SUDDENLY care to make HER happy before yourself, and will therefore want to make YOU happy.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

MEM2020 said:


> WW,
> 
> This was seriously painful to read. Educational but painful.


Thanks. I've had a lot of time to think about why I acted as I did in many situations. I would love to go back in time and do pretty much everything I ever did in relationships so differently. That can't happen, but at least I can understand myself and be more aware moving forward.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

WorkingWife said:


> This was different relationships over my lifetime. I pretended to like it in my 20-3 and early 30's.
> 
> I would say I agree with you except I was not being coy. *I believed on a gut level that a woman who didn't like every sexual advance made by her guy was seen as "frigid*" and with all the overt talk about frequent, casual sex in my generation, there were plenty of willing women to take her place. *What guy would stick around with a woman who didn't like being groped constantly and having sex every day?
> *
> It was not coyness, it was insecurity and lack of self worth on my part. And also a desire not to hurt my guy's feelings.


BTDT, WW. 

Unfortunately, as we can see by reading these forums, that there are plenty of men who think this way--married or not. 

But I wonder...

Do men (in general) also play into what they believe society expects of them? Do they think that they're supposed to ALWAYS want sex, ogle and grope women? That they're not really "men" if they don't ALWAYS want it or turn it down from time to time? Do they fear that if they turn it down or don't always want it that they'll be laughed at, mocked or ridiculed by other men AND women? 

Hmm...


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

turnera said:


> Yes, but sometimes you have a wife who is pleasantly surprised that you SUDDENLY care to make HER happy before yourself, and will therefore want to make YOU happy.


A wife who views unexpected touch as groping is not overwhelmingly likely to view the absence of touch as caring. She is just as likely to view the absence of touch as proper and appropriate and nothing worth rewarding.

My wife was never motivated by efforts to express my caring for her. Recently she is VERY motivated to express her appreciation for my support as so many of our "peers" undergo "grey divorce" when the kids leave home. She is terrified that I will divorce her and abandon her as so many of her friends' husbands have done.

I quite enjoy her recent attention. But I am not blind. It is not motivated by love or out of gratitude for my support. It is motivated entirely by fear. Should I conclude that I ought to have triggered her fear earlier? Should I be glad or sad that I was not sufficiently selfish or manipulative to implement that strategy?


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Vega said:


> Do men (in general) also play into what they believe society expects of them? Do they think that they're supposed to ALWAYS want sex, ogle and grope women? That they're not really "men" if they don't ALWAYS want it or turn it down from time to time? Do they fear that if they turn it down or don't always want it that they'll be laughed at, mocked or ridiculed by other men AND women?


Yes, of course they do. And if they do not, yes, of course they are mocked and ridiculed. Fearing that outcome is entirely rational.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

MrsHolland said:


> So much of this seems to be wrapped up in upbringing. In my stupid years I at first thought that I had to lower myself to keep getting attention from males. It took a few stupid moments, maybe teenage rebellion was part of it but eventually the lessons of my upbringing shone through. I was never told that not putting out was akin to being frigid, I was always told that self respect and equality were important.
> My kids are taught about respect, for themselves and others. They know that it is wrong to be pressured or to pressure another into doing things they do not want to. That people are humans with feelings and the right to their own space and boundaries.
> 
> Honestly, reading your responses here is quite enlightening, I feel bad for you that this has been your experience. It is not right and it is no wonder you feel the way you do.
> ...


In my case I don't think it was upbringing as in anything I was taught or not taught by my parents. I will say that my mother was a very difficult, demanding, judgmental person and my father was pretty withdrawn from her. (He definitely never groped her, LOL!) Anyhow, in my mind I never wanted to be that critical, needy, demanding woman. I can see now that I went so far overboard in the opposite direction of being easy going, accepting, accommodating, caring, etc. that it's horrible to think of some of the treatment I just stupidly accepted.

But I also think a lot of it is just my natural personality and I didn't have anyone I trusted that I could talk to to say "wake up!" My mother warned me about my first husband, but she criticized everyone and everything, so I didn't take it seriously or feel I could talk to her about my doubts.

The sadly ironic thing is that in every area aside from relationships I was always quite confident and competent, and fearless.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

WorkingWife said:


> I will say that my mother was a very difficult, demanding, judgmental person and my father was pretty withdrawn from her. (He definitely never groped her, LOL!)


I've never groped my wife in eyesight of our children, how would you know your father never groped your mother?


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> Yes, of course they do. And if they do not, yes, of course they are mocked and ridiculed. Fearing that outcome is entirely rational.


So, if a man SAYS he wants sex 4-6 times a week, he may only REALLY want it once every 10 days (for example). Yet, he'll pout, sulk, beg and plead with his wife to get it 4-6 times a week when in reality he doesn't even want it that often? And he'll do this out of fear that word will get out that he's really not as interested in sex as often as he "should" be, and will be looked at as 'less than' a "real" man....? 

And likewise, a woman will have sex 4-6 times a week when she REALLY only wants it about once every 10 days or so, but because of the fear of being ridiculed, mocked and laughed at or LEFT, she'll sacrifice herself to have it more often. 

Yet, there are men and women out there who have learned to be _true_ to themselves. They've learned not the care about what others think and who no longer feel the pressure from society to perform. 

I think that last group will end up being the happiest. :smile2:


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Vega said:


> Yet, there are men and women out there who have learned to be _true_ to themselves. They've learned not the care about what others think and who no longer feel the pressure from society to perform.
> 
> I think that last group will end up being the happiest. :smile2:


Yep!


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Vega said:


> BTDT, WW.
> 
> Unfortunately, as we can see by reading these forums, that there are plenty of men who think this way--married or not.
> 
> ...


Of course.

One needs look no farther than cultural differences between our nations WRT to men's "roles". 

Travel to different countries, and you'll see vastly different roles put upon young men as to how they're supposed to feel and treat women. The pressure put upon these men is enormous, and while it's probably reduced in Western (read "Western Anglo") cultures, it's still there, nonetheless.

When I say vastly different, I mean only in terms of the public pressure exerted on these men. The pressure is still there in the West. It's not so "in your face", but it's still there.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> I quite enjoy her recent attention. But I am not blind. It is not motivated by love or out of gratitude for my support. It is motivated entirely by fear. Should I conclude that I ought to have triggered her fear earlier? Should I be glad or sad that I was not sufficiently selfish or manipulative to implement that strategy?


How do you _know_ if someone's actions are based on love or fear?


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

Personal said:


> I've never groped my wife in eyesight of our children, how would you know your father never groped your mother?


Oh, well, I don't "know" but it does not fit his personality at all. He's a pretty serious, introverted person. Occasionally he would hug and kiss her. 

Let's say instead: I did not grow up witnessing groping. I don't know how that would or would not affect my personal reaction to it.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> Of course.
> 
> One needs look no farther than cultural differences between our nations WRT to men's "roles".
> 
> ...


Not sure which countries you're talking about but I have been to several other countries. Didn't really notice THAT much of a difference. My azz was actually grabbed by a man on the street once, but heck...that happened in several ****tail lounges I worked at in California. 

I wonder if the pressure these men feel is really pressure they put on themselves due to their own competitive nature.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

Holdingontoit said:


> A wife who views unexpected touch as groping is not overwhelmingly likely to view the absence of touch as caring. She is just as likely to view the absence of touch as proper and appropriate and nothing worth rewarding.
> 
> My wife was never motivated by efforts to express my caring for her. Recently she is VERY motivated to express her appreciation for my support as so many of our "peers" undergo "grey divorce" when the kids leave home. She is terrified that I will divorce her and abandon her as so many of her friends' husbands have done.
> 
> I quite enjoy her recent attention. But I am not blind. It is not motivated by love or out of gratitude for my support. It is motivated entirely by fear. Should I conclude that I ought to have triggered her fear earlier? Should I be glad or sad that I was not sufficiently selfish or manipulative to implement that strategy?


Very interesting.

Could it not also be though that maybe it is motivated some by a newfound appreciation for you and what she has with you now that she sees her friend's divorcing? Like a wake up call that the grass is not greener after all? 

Most women who are unhappy with their husband's react differently you know and want their own divorce at that age. She could also be maturing and less selfish/self absorbed than before. And less frazzled by kids.

Either way, sad to think we might have to manipulate people and implement strategies, but I would have still done it had I know it would've worked!


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I think the key is to touch your partner with the intent of making them happy - doing it in whatever way they enjoy. The part about groping I enjoy is my partner's (positive) reaction, not the sensation of grabbing flesh.


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## NotEasy (Apr 19, 2015)

uhtred said:


> I think the key is to touch your partner with the intent of making them happy - doing it in whatever way they enjoy. The part about groping I enjoy is my partner's (positive) reaction, not the sensation of grabbing flesh.


Yes, but, if your groping is always and only getting a positive reaction and done for their happiness, then I call it fondling not groping. I grope for my pleasure, I fondle for your (or our) pleasure.

However the name is unimportant, it is the intention and the reaction that are important.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

If that is the meaning being used for "groping" then I wouldn't do it. 



NotEasy said:


> Yes, but, if your groping is always and only getting a positive reaction and done for their happiness, then I call it fondling not groping. I grope for my pleasure, I fondle for your (or our) pleasure.
> 
> However the name is unimportant, it is the intention and the reaction that are important.


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## bilbag (Aug 3, 2016)

WorkingWife said:


> I haven't read the whole thread yet but I have to respond to this.
> 
> In my case it would be NONE.
> 
> ...


I am in love with my wife so the touching is truly personal, not impersonal.  I have no inclination to touch any other woman. I am attracted to her body but she doesn't want to be touched, just like her preference to not have sex often. The touching is not for want of sex right in that moment although I would appreciate the activity (but not foolish enough to expect it). 
She has expressed her displeasure and she forcefully stuck her hand up my ass and then started pinching my nipples to let me know she felt. That was ticklish and dehumanizing. But that is not what I do. I do avoid her butt cracks and nipples just so mine are not played with again.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

bilbag said:


> I am in love with my wife so the touching is truly personal, not impersonal.  I have no inclination to touch any other woman. I am attracted to her body but she doesn't want to be touched, just like her preference to not have sex often. The touching is not for want of sex right in that moment although I would appreciate the activity (but not foolish enough to expect it).
> She has expressed her displeasure and she forcefully stuck her hand up my ass and then started pinching my nipples to let me know she felt. That was ticklish and dehumanizing. But that is not what I do. I do avoid her butt cracks and nipples just so mine are not played with again.


So how do you touch her? Affectionately or sexually? That would be very sad and frustrating to me to be in a relationship with someone who did not like to be touched at all. 

My experience as a woman though, is that many men cannot touch affectionately without getting turned on. Which is not "wrong" at all, but it puts the woman on high alert that what may be a hug right now is going to become a breast or crotch grab within a few seconds. 

So while the guy may have had the best of intentions of showing affection, the second he touches her he gets turned on. If this is usually the case, the woman may not want to be touched at all because she fears where it will lead every. single. time.

I have seen threads on here though where people (most often wives) just do not want to be touched at all. To me that seems indicative of a bigger problem in the marriage that the wife may not be fessing up to. But who knows, some people just don't like being touched period. That would SUCK.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

MrsHolland said:


> So here is the irony that seems to wash over many men, the more safe and respected I felt the more I wanted him to have his hands all over me. You cannot just grab at a woman like a piece of meat if she feels unloved or disrespected, strangers do that to us and it is revolting.
> If you want a marriage where touching is welcome then treat your wife as a person not an object.


Exactly. If I feel cared for I feel safe. When I feel safe I am relaxed and much more receptive to being touched. Even groped! (occasionally) 

If I feel used and objectified, I find it is all I can do not to cringe when he puts his hands on me.

Also, feeling known and understood - I guess that goes with respected - but if my spouse knows I don't like to be touched in certain ways but he does it anyhow, the message I get is that he doesn't believe what I tell him about myself or he doesn't care.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

While my wife rarely wants sex, she does enjoy fairly intimate touching. She likes when I grab her from behind, kiss her neck and ear. Or if I suddenly swoop in a give her a quick kiss. Or stoke here hair while we sit on the sofa.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

Vega said:


> But I wonder...
> 
> Do men (in general) also play into what they believe society expects of them? Do they think that they're supposed to ALWAYS want sex, ogle and grope women? That they're not really "men" if they don't ALWAYS want it or turn it down from time to time? Do they fear that if they turn it down or don't always want it that they'll be laughed at, mocked or ridiculed by other men AND women?
> 
> Hmm...


That is a really good question. I think that many do. I also think many don't like sexually aggressive women, but many young women assume they do.


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## bilbag (Aug 3, 2016)

Holdingontoit said:


> A wife who views unexpected touch as groping is not overwhelmingly likely to view the absence of touch as caring. She is just as likely to view the absence of touch as proper and appropriate and nothing worth rewarding.
> 
> My wife was never motivated by efforts to express my caring for her. Recently she is VERY motivated to express her appreciation for my support as so many of our "peers" undergo "grey divorce" when the kids leave home. She is terrified that I will divorce her and abandon her as so many of her friends' husbands have done.
> 
> I quite enjoy her recent attention. But I am not blind. It is not motivated by love or out of gratitude for my support. It is motivated entirely by fear. Should I conclude that I ought to have triggered her fear earlier? Should I be glad or sad that I was not sufficiently selfish or manipulative to implement that strategy?


Trigger by fear does not necessarily mean there is no love involved. The threat of losing a loved one can shake her out of her present state. For me several years ago, the decision to leave was not a strategy to have sex back in my life. It was to keep my sanity. Fortunately she came through for us and we stayed married.
Enjoy the attention and hopefully love.


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## bilbag (Aug 3, 2016)

WorkingWife said:


> So how do you touch her? Affectionately or sexually? That would be very sad and frustrating to me to be in a relationship with someone who did not like to be touched at all.
> 
> My experience as a woman though, is that many men cannot touch affectionately without getting turned on. Which is not "wrong" at all, but it puts the woman on high alert that what may be a hug right now is going to become a breast or crotch grab within a few seconds.
> 
> ...


It does SUCK so I take action and try to loosen her up. It's dangerous sometimes, the kicks and the elbows, but she is worth it.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

WorkingWife said:


> So how do you touch her? Affectionately or sexually? That would be very sad and frustrating to me to be in a relationship with someone who did not like to be touched at all.
> 
> My experience as a woman though, is that many men cannot touch affectionately without getting turned on. Which is not "wrong" at all, but it puts the woman on high alert that what may be a hug right now is going to become a breast or crotch grab within a few seconds.
> 
> ...


Same with cuddling many times too.
Very hard to deal with when you think your lady is special.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

MrsHolland said:


> So much of this seems to be wrapped up in upbringing. In my stupid years I at first thought that I had to lower myself to keep getting attention from males. It took a few stupid moments, maybe teenage rebellion was part of it but eventually the lessons of my upbringing shone through. I was never told that not putting out was akin to being frigid, I was always told that self respect and equality were important.
> My kids are taught about respect, for themselves and others. They know that it is wrong to be pressured or to pressure another into doing things they do not want to. That people are humans with feelings and the right to their own space and boundaries.
> 
> Honestly, reading your responses here is quite enlightening, I feel bad for you that this has been your experience. It is not right and it is no wonder you feel the way you do.
> ...


I remember this guy in high school, a year or two older, fairly popular with the girls. He'd walk the hallway, stick out his hand and grope a boob of certain girls as they passed. They'd giggle or act nonchalant about it. Maybe it was fine with them. Who am I to say.

Him and I had shared some laughs. One day he walked by me, gave me a cheeky look, his arm began stretching my way. 

'Don't even think about it.' 

The arm went back to his side.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

OP ....have you asked her _how_ she likes to be touched? 

Has she told you what intimacy means to her and what makes her feel close to you?


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

WorkingWife said:


> Either way, sad to think we might have to manipulate people and implement strategies, but I would have still done it had I know it would've worked!


What does "work" mean? My wife is more affectionate. I like that. But our sexual relationship remains non-existent. She knows from 8 years of MC what I most desire to share with her, and she has not offered anything like that. You can almost see the thoughts play across her face sometimes that she knows what she should do next but she can't bring herself to go there.

I feel sorry for her. But after all these years and all this pain I no longer have any resources to offer her in that area. This is her battle with her demons and she needs to fight it or there will forever be a wall between us.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

uhtred said:


> While my wife rarely wants sex, she does enjoy fairly intimate touching. She likes when I grab her from behind, kiss her neck and ear. Or if I suddenly swoop in a give her a quick kiss. Or stoke here hair while we sit on the sofa.


That's not groping, that's affection. When MY H grabs me from behind, it's so he can squeeze my breasts - which is what HE wants, not me. Big difference.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Vega said:


> Not sure which countries you're talking about but I have been to several other countries. Didn't really notice THAT much of a difference. My azz was actually grabbed by a man on the street once, but heck...that happened in several ****tail lounges I worked at in California.
> 
> I wonder if the pressure these men feel is really pressure they put on themselves due to their own competitive nature.


Nope, I really feel a big portion of it is cultural. Take a look at Mexico as an example. Machismo is HUGE, and guys who don't toe the line are subject to all kinds of not nice things.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lisamaree (Nov 2, 2014)

I would say if your wife doesn't like it, it's too much. My husband gropes me all the time and I return the favor, at least several times a day. I never thought of it in a negative way, and won't in the future. But he and I are playful with each other, we also wrestle and see who wins. I never thought of that as negative, either. For some reason the groping and such seems to be an overwhelming urge for both of us, there's been a few times I've almost done it in front of company!


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## mrsbride (Aug 25, 2016)

Holdingontoit said:


> If it feels like groping to her, then the correct amount is zero. No matter how much she turns you on. You want her to see it as a compliment. That is not how she actually sees it. Too bad for you. Stop trying to convince her to see it your way. You will never succeed and you will only create bad feelings on her side. Not what you claim to want.
> 
> Find ways of expressing your desire that work for HER. If you can't, then keep your horniness and turned-on-ness to yourself.
> 
> ...


I feel groped by my husband and it's very annoying. It does not turn me on or make me feel special. I agree with doing what is good for her because I'm sure that's not the response you want. I do not find it attractive for my husband to follow me around humping my leg and prefer a little more challenge.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ym96 (Feb 2, 2016)

As long as you don't do flat out extreme pda groping in public, I see no problem with it. Like a small butt squeeze with a kiss on the cheek, that's fine in my eyes. But don't do it EVERY time y'all are out. It'll get very annoying after a while.
Whenever my husband does it, yeah I do playfully act like I don't like it, but he knows I do. It really boosts my confidence and makes me feel special.

Sent from my LG-D850 using Tapatalk


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## I Don't Know (Oct 8, 2013)

This is going to be shot down as it's too easy I'm sure. But I think the reason their groping is the same reason guys cat call.

Because we would love it if women did this to us. We would eat that **** up! Dumbly we assume that women would like it as well. Even when we're told they don't. A few of us do eventually catch on, but it can take awhile.

This next part is just some venting.

Also, I have never seen NOT doing something result in the desired outcome. People say don't grope and maybe she'll be more receptive. Yeah, I doubt it. I mean you should stop. And she'll be relieved that you stopped. But don't count on it making much difference. Just like taking care of X task will not make her suddenly want to bone you. Nope, there'll be some other thing getting in the way as soon as you're done with that, OR if everything is actually all done it will be "man I'm beat let's get some sleep!"

Guess what. If you like doing X whether it's groping, being groped, talking dirty or whatever if your SO doesn't like it, it's going to eventually be something you do without. They aren't going to start saying nasty things to you just because you stopped. They aren't going to grab a hand full of your junk because you don't grab theirs anymore. And if you keep it up they're going to hate you. Fun choices there.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

I Don't Know said:


> This is going to be shot down as it's too easy I'm sure. But I think the reason their groping is the same reason guys cat call.
> 
> Because we would love it if women did this to us. We would eat that **** up! Dumbly we assume that women would like it as well. Even when we're told they don't. A few of us do eventually catch on, but it can take awhile.
> 
> ...


Generally, I would say you are correct. But, there are cases where one partner DOES start to enjoy something they detested before. There are things that I do for my wife that I used to dislike, but now enjoy. There are things she used to detest that she now enjoys. 

The problem is that very few people are willing to change the way they think about things that they don't enjoy. When you change the way you think about something, it starts off clumsy. You have to do some mental gymnastics in order to find an aspect that you can latch onto in order to find something positive to think about. For instance, I was never really into anal, but my wife loves it. So, the thing that I latched onto early on was how much it turns her on. Focusing on that every time, I began to automatically associate anal with the excitement of turning my wife on THAT much. 

Eventually, it became a natural thing to get excited about it and even turned on by it. I explained this process to my wife, and she started practicing it. She wanted to find out how that works. Well, eventually, she saw that she could push my buttons and get some immediate emotional responses from me, and she liked that power. Then she started getting turned on by the groping as well, and the rest is history. I would say it took about a year for it to feel completely natural to her, but only a few weeks before it stopped feeling incredibly clumsy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I Don't Know said:


> This is going to be shot down as it's too easy I'm sure. But I think the reason their groping is the same reason guys cat call.
> 
> Because we would love it if women did this to us. We would eat that **** up! Dumbly we assume that women would like it as well. Even when we're told they don't. A few of us do eventually catch on, but it can take awhile.
> 
> ...


Those are all the kinds of things that can be very easily solved: by talking about it! Note, I didn't say complaining or blaming, I said talking. Like, 'Wife, how did you feel when I grabbed your butt the other day? I wanna know because I want to be the guy who does all the right things with you, so let me know, ok? Too much, not enough? I wanna know how you're feeling.'


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I Don't Know said:


> This is going to be shot down as it's too easy I'm sure. But I think the reason their groping is the same reason guys cat call.
> 
> Because we would love it if women did this to us. We would eat that **** up! Dumbly we assume that women would like it as well. Even when we're told they don't. A few of us do eventually catch on, but it can take awhile.
> 
> ...


It's not fair yes but it's will be less frustrating if you don't expect something in return for simply being considerate. 

It's important not to give her the impression that you don't welcome her feedback on all things erotic or that you don't care about what pleases her. 

If there is a hint of anger and frustration in this small thing, she may shut down communicating about larger sexual preferences and eventually avoid sex altogether. 

What you do outside of the bedroom impacts what happens inside. She may feel that if her preference for no butt grabbing makes you angry perhaps taking the trouble to please her drives you crazy.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

turnera said:


> Those are all the kinds of things that can be very easily solved: by talking about it! Note, I didn't say complaining or blaming, I said talking. Like, 'Wife, how did you feel when I grabbed your butt the other day? I wanna know because I want to be the guy who does all the right things with you, so let me know, ok? Too much, not enough? I wanna know how you're feeling.'


:yay: QFT


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Yes! How about "girlfriend, I want a wife who loves it when I grab her butt. Are you that woman?"


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

turnera said:


> Those are all the kinds of things that can be very easily solved: by talking about it! Note, I didn't say complaining or blaming, I said talking. Like, 'Wife, how did you feel when I grabbed your butt the other day? I wanna know because I want to be the guy who does all the right things with you, so let me know, ok? Too much, not enough? I wanna know how you're feeling.'




How about "husband how did you feel about my reaction to your grabbing my butt the other day? I wanna know because I want to be the wife who does all the right things with you, so let me know, ok?" Or does this only go one direction? Cause you know boys are taught that their feelings don't matter and girls are taught the opposite so maybe that would never happen.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

As'laDain said:


> Generally, I would say you are correct. But, there are cases where one partner DOES start to enjoy something they detested before. There are things that I do for my wife that I used to dislike, but now enjoy. There are things she used to detest that she now enjoys.
> 
> The problem is that very few people are willing to change the way they think about things that they don't enjoy. When you change the way you think about something, it starts off clumsy. You have to do some mental gymnastics in order to find an aspect that you can latch onto in order to find something positive to think about. For instance, I was never really into anal, but my wife loves it. So, the thing that I latched onto early on was how much it turns her on. Focusing on that every time, I began to automatically associate anal with the excitement of turning my wife on THAT much.
> 
> ...


I love things now that I refused to do early in our marriage out of shyness and ignorance. My husband encouraged me to make small changes that I grew to like and as a result, I was open to try more things. 

There are lots of ways to widen sexual experiences for a shy and hesitant lover. Thinking back, it was my husbands patience that turned the tide. 

I frustrated him a lot sometimes but he always calmed down and made me feel loved and safe. If he got angry or withdrew or got pushy, I doubt we would have had positive outcomes. I really don't know where he got the patience. 

Now I'm not hesitant to try new things. Some are meh. My husband likes things that don't turn me on so I get to watch him.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Yes! How about "girlfriend, I want a wife who loves it when I grab her butt. Are you that woman?"


No, no, no, you got it mixed up. This is a parting shot not an intimate relationship building moment leading to a romantic session of butt groping. I'm curious, how do you get any pleasure from kneading a butt connected to a woman you despise? It is so easy to get a replacement butt so why bother. 

My advice is, don't stay married to someone who is worthless to you and you reveal that to them. You never know when and how they will take their revenge. Get a new butt, this one is dead to you now.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

WorkingOnMe said:


> How about "husband how did you feel about my reaction to your grabbing my butt the other day? I wanna know because I want to be the wife who does all the right things with you, so let me know, ok?" Or does this only go one direction? Cause you know boys are taught that their feelings don't matter and girls are taught the opposite so maybe that would never happen.


There are a number of posts on the thread addressing this issue. 

In some relationships, the no butt grab zone is temporary. Talking about it without anger is probably the best way to find out when temporary moratoriums are active. 

Sometimes it's a technical problem, too vigorous or painful. An adjustment works wonders. 

Sometimes it's the approach, an unexpected grab or a grab every time wife is within arms length may be annoying. Just don't do it that way.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

WorkingOnMe said:


> How about "husband how did you feel about my reaction to your grabbing my butt the other day? I wanna know because I want to be the wife who does all the right things with you, so let me know, ok?" Or does this only go one direction? Cause you know boys are taught that their feelings don't matter and girls are taught the opposite so maybe that would never happen.


Absolutely it should happen but you have to put psychology in the mix - when someone is ticked off, they retreat. Stop talking. So the smarter thing - since it's the man WANTING to squeeze the butt in the future - would be for him to squeeze her and THEN say 'is this ok? do you like it? wanna go have some nookie?' You know, make it FUN for her, not lecherous.

Or, you know, you can sit there and pout about how your wife's not into you anymore and not try to understand why.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Catherine602 said:


> I frustrated him a lot sometimes but he always calmed down and *made me feel loved and safe*. If he got angry or withdrew or got pushy, I doubt we would have had positive outcomes. I really don't know where he got the patience.


Whereas _my _husband, when he wanted some (after expecting me to do all the housework, cooking, and child raising while we both worked full time) and I turned him down because I was just absolutely exhausted, he would turn away from me in the bed, pout, and tap his feet to let me know how annoyed he was, or else throw himself out of bed and start angrily accusing me of everything he could think of - so much that I gave in and gave him sex just to shut him up.

Guess which husband gets to grab his wife's butt now?


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## Miss Independent (Mar 24, 2014)

.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Because my dad started cheating and moved out and the first thing he did was get a vasectomy so he didn't have to worry about any more brats (his words). And when I'd visit his apartment, it was filled with Playboy magazines and sex stuff. Because my older brother, who tried to replace my dad after he left when I was 12 and my mom worked 80 hours a week to avoid reality and I basically raised myself, tried to keep me from having sex by telling me if I did I was worthless and a **** (and then he went away to college and left me alone through high school). And then when I tried saying no to sex every boy I went out with dumped me for saying no, so I started saying yes even though I didn't want to, and when I met my fiance, he wanted sex morning noon and night, and by then I just didn't feel I had any choice, since I was worthless and a ****, and I knew he would dump me if I said no. And after I broke up with him (caught him cheating) and started dating my husband, I asked him if he would still date me if I said no and he said yes, but when I tried to say no he pouted and made things miserable. And when I asked him a year later, right before we got married, if he really meant it that he would stay with me if I said no, he said no, he would leave me. So basically everything in my life taught me I had no rights and it was my job to say yes.

The sad thing is that when I was about 50, my mom told me the truth - that she had CAUGHT him cheating, kicked him out, he had asked to come home when he realized the only women he could get was middle-aged divorcees with kids (who he expected me to babysit while he went in the bedroom and screwed their mother). And my mom told him Hell, NO, he couldn't come home. All my life, I grew up thinking women had no rights, no strength, they had to do what the man said. And all along, it was my mom who had the strength, not my dad. If only I'd known that from the start. But she never talked to me.

I don't resent my husband for being a sex-driven jerk. I resent - hate - myself for being so weak. I resent my H for a lot of other reasons, lol. But sex, I understand. He's a man.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> It's not fair yes
> 
> If there is a* hint* of anger and frustration in this small thing, she may shut down communicating about larger sexual preferences and eventually avoid sex altogether.


Hint, whiff, vague leaning in the general direction of, or no sign at all but just the expectation of on her part.


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## Miss Independent (Mar 24, 2014)

.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

spinsterdurga said:


> But you didn't do anything to rectify their damage. You could have dumped your husband for being a liar.


You're right. How stupid of me being a 20 year old and not walking, since I knew all about good relationships and what I should be expecting from one, since every one had been so magical and respectful.

Why do you think I'm here? To stop other people from getting stuck like me.


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## Miss Independent (Mar 24, 2014)

.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

@turnera Brought tears to my eyes my sister. Thanks for being so generous with your time and effort to help us all. I love that you are here and always relieved to see that you are still posting. I don't want you to go away like some of my other favorite TAMers. {{{hugs}}}


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Catherine,

Time for some definitions eh?

I think three key dimensions are enough to capture the essence of this:
1. Abruptness
2. Force 
3. Explicitness 

People generally tend to think of groping as:
1. High in terms of abruptness 
2. Moderate to high force (it isn't gentle)
3. It is fully explicit sexually 

Fondling tends to be less abrupt and it might be a gentle touch while still being explicitly sexual. 

I am not saying fondling is ok - just trying to parameteize the differences. 

----------
Anyway - here's the way this looks to me. Happy marriage is a mix of comfort and adventure. Of endorphines and dopamine. 







Catherine602 said:


> @turnera Brought tears to my eyes my sister. Thanks for being so generous with your time and effort to help us all. I love that you are here and always relieved to see that you are still posting. I don't want you to go away like some of my other favorite TAMers. {{{hugs}}}


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Sorry - got interrupted.

To complete the post below. 

When we go into dopamine boost mode - it's mutual and intentional. Whether that is wrestling or riding scooters or going on a roller coaster. We do it TOGETHER. We do it WITH each other, not TO each other. 

But groping - for us - wasn't a thing I did WITH M2, instead it was something I did TO her. 

So yeah - our non sexual touch is a pure endorphine thing. Because when you employ the dimensions above - abruptness, force and explicitness in a sensible way - your touch consistently feels somewhere between good and great. 






MEM2020 said:


> Catherine,
> 
> Time for some definitions eh?
> 
> ...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

MEM2020 said:


> Catherine,
> 
> Time for some definitions eh?
> 
> ...


MEM, there's one more characteristic to consider, one that happened to me wrt groping and I've heard at least half a dozen other women on here complain about it: men groping their wives while the women are doing CHORES. Every time my H groped me, I was doing dishes. For some reason, he felt an urge to do it while I was...IDK...busy? Had my hands full? Couldn't push him away? Looked sexy doing dishes? IDK. But my first thought was always NOW? Now you pick to do that? When I have to finish this? My second thought was usually if you have time to do that, then why don't you have time to be doing these dishes WITH me instead of wanting sex?


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

If men would substitute the word 'caress' for 'grope', their batting average would increase significantly. Seriously, what is sexy about being mauled?

Leave the groping to the pimple-faced teenagers. Grown men behave like grown men.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Blondilocks said:


> If men would substitute the word 'caress' for 'grope', their batting average would increase significantly. Seriously, what is sexy about being mauled?
> 
> Leave the groping to the pimple-faced teenagers. Grown men behave like grown men.


Grown men behave however they decide to behave. If you tell them to stop a behavior and they dont, then provide a consequence. If that consequence is no sex that day, own it. Say it out loud. Let them pout if they want to, just remind them that the consequence is your chosen response to their chosen behavior. 

As for pimple faced teenagers... well, I guess that's me. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

turnera said:


> MEM, there's one more characteristic to consider, one that happened to me wrt groping and I've heard at least half a dozen other women on here complain about it: men groping their wives while the women are doing CHORES. Every time my H groped me, I was doing dishes. For some reason, he felt an urge to do it while I was...IDK...busy? Had my hands full? Couldn't push him away? Looked sexy doing dishes? IDK. But my first thought was always NOW? Now you pick to do that? When I have to finish this? My second thought was usually if you have time to do that, then why don't you have time to be doing these dishes WITH me instead of wanting sex?


This is actually kind of interesting, because I've seen and read a lot of accounts of men finding it insanely attractive to watch women.....ironing. 


I guess it's kind of the same thing as women getting randy watching their men mow the lawn or fixing a car. The guy doesn't exactly find it fun, but the woman sees it as something masculine and attractive. I'm guessing the reverse is true also?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

And yet - at the sink or elsewhere - when I come up behind M2 I get the 'melt back'. She melts backwards into me. 

But then - there is zero 'startle factor' in that interaction. First things first - even if she's watching tv on the stool at the kitchen counter - I make some soft noise when I enter the room. It's just a cue that I'm in the room. When I come up against her - my chest to her back its initially just enough contact to create awareness and then I slowly lean forward as she slowly melts backwards. 

Wrap my arms around either her shoulders or waist - but it's a hug - not an exercise in opportunistic mauling. 





turnera said:


> MEM, there's one more characteristic to consider, one that happened to me wrt groping and I've heard at least half a dozen other women on here complain about it: men groping their wives while the women are doing CHORES. Every time my H groped me, I was doing dishes. For some reason, he felt an urge to do it while I was...IDK...busy? Had my hands full? Couldn't push him away? Looked sexy doing dishes? IDK. But my first thought was always NOW? Now you pick to do that? When I have to finish this? My second thought was usually if you have time to do that, then why don't you have time to be doing these dishes WITH me instead of wanting sex?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Blondi,
Now we're talking. 

Caress implies: not abrupt, and not forceful. Might or might not be explicitly sexual. 

But if I'm doing it - it's not explicitly sexual. Neck - sure. Maybe thigh. 

I just don't touch her in an explicitly sexual way - unless we're - you know - in bed - have already been kissing and are gonna have sex. 

The benefit of this is: M2 has certainty when I'm touching her it's going to feel good. Equal certainty that it's not going to feel bad. 




Blondilocks said:


> If men would substitute the word 'caress' for 'grope', their batting average would increase significantly. Seriously, what is sexy about being mauled?
> 
> Leave the groping to the pimple-faced teenagers. Grown men behave like grown men.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Blondilocks said:


> If men would substitute the word 'caress' for 'grope', their batting average would increase significantly. Seriously, what is sexy about being mauled?
> 
> Leave the groping to the pimple-faced teenagers. Grown men behave like grown men.


It does not matter what word is in the toucher's mind, it matters what word is in the touchee's mind. 

Unfortunately the original poster on this thread used the word grope. But, whether his touches were gently and innocent or aggressive and sexual. The reaction that his partner is going to have to that touch depends entirely on how she interprets it.

In other words If Turnera's partner is like me and when he sees his partner doing dishes for the first time in five days and feels a surge of love for her in response to her Act of Service, and gives her a gentle shoulder caress to express his feelings, She is still going to think "What, you want that now?" In fact she has clearly explained that to us and probably to her partner as well. 

The problem is when we don't know what to expect our partners response to be. Or when we get an unexpected response. What this thread is really about is how to get more predictable responses. Of course that way leads to loss of mystery and boredom, so perhaps it is foolish to ask.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

What matters is the touch. As MEM explained, his wife knows his touch will not feel bad. Turnera knows her husband's touches feel bad. 

Some women like As'laDain's wife don't mind being groped and that is all well and good. For those that do, though, the softer approach is the better approach. 

Turnera's husband would do well to adopt the frog in boiling water approach. But, he is so immature that it's always about him.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Blondi has raised quite an interesting point.

So I'll reverse the script via a simple question. What do you actually THINK ABOUT when your partner touches you? 

Do you respond to touch with a question: Typically - what do they want? A question ladened with either hope or fear? 

Do they want sex? (The HD partner might hope)
Do they want sex? (The LD partner might fear)

But what happens when - touch is decoupled from anything else? What if your partner touches you solely because they KNOW YOU LIKE IT. What if touch is a unidirectional give? 

That is what M2 taught me to do 25+ years ago. 

Was I smart enough to know that this was the path to a happy sex life with a responsive desire partner? Hell no. Never occurred to me. 

But it is/was that path. At least for us. 





Blondilocks said:


> What matters is the touch. As MEM explained, his wife knows his touch will not feel bad. Turnera knows her husband's touches feel bad.
> 
> Some women like As'laDain's wife don't mind being groped and that is all well and good. For those that do, though, the softer approach is the better approach.
> 
> Turnera's husband would do well to adopt the frog in boiling water approach. But, he is so immature that it's always about him.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

I'm foolishly charging into the breach one more time. 

You are saying that these gropers are clueless men who can't learn how to touch properly. I think that's what you said. but it does not make sense.

So (here is the foolish part) I think that Trust is what matters. the Vega point. Prove to me, that your touch does not mean what I, in my distrust, assume it means.

I don't know which spouse you were advocating boiling alive, it doesn't seem to be any way to build up a relationship. Vega Needs a year sexless to prove that he doesn't think about sex 24 /7/365. Turnera (you think) is sure that every touch will feel bad. Those examples illustrate a relationship of distrust. Like my relationship with telemarketers. You don't live with people that you have that level of distrust with.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> So I'll reverse the script via a simple question. What do you actually THINK ABOUT when your partner touches you?


I don't think. I just enjoy it, get lost in it, let it lead to other things.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Mr. Nail said:


> In other words If Turnera's partner is like me and when he sees his partner doing dishes* for the first time in five days* and feels a surge of love for her in response to her Act of Service, and gives her a gentle shoulder caress to express his feelings, She is still going to think "What, you want that now?" In fact she has clearly explained that to us and probably to her partner as well.


Ok, couple of things going on here. 

First, when you say for the first time in five days, what do you mean? Do you mean that the dishes stack up for four days and then she finally does them, and you feel grateful that she's finally doing what she's supposed to? Or do you mean that YOU have been doing them every day and on the fifth, she steps up and does them so you don't have to?

Because if it's the former and not the latter, there's likely a REASON she is no longer doing dishes regularly. And if that's the case, you two have likely had fights about it or at least resentments. And if that's the case, when she's doing those dishes, finally, and you come near her, all she's likely to think is (1) he's trying to shame me for finally doing them, get lost, buster; or (2) ABC (whatever's wrong with the marriage) still hasn't changed, I'm stuck here, SOMEbody's gotta do it...oh, and NOW you want to be chummy, now that I finally 'did my job?' No thanks.

Of course, if it's the latter, ignore me, lol.

Second, or are you talking about me and saying that _I_ only do dishes every five days, lol?

And third, if you're talking about me and how I think 'what do you want now', well, you've got the scenario wrong. Loving touch on the shoulder? No, more like come up behind me and squeeze my boobs and then grab my crotch because my hands are in the dishwater and I can't do anything about it. If you think that's a loving caress...well, I don't know how to respond, lol. And yes, I did tell him to back off. He hasn't done it in many years.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Mr. Nail said:


> I'm foolishly charging into the breach one more time.
> 
> You are saying that these gropers are clueless men who can't learn how to touch properly. I think that's what you said. but it does not make sense.
> 
> ...


Mr. Nail, that's what I've been saying! Every touch HAS been a bad one or else I'm only being touched in a nice way when he's horny and hopes it will LEAD to sex. And of course I don't trust him. I've lost count of the times he's groped my chest or crotch, I've pushed him away, and said please don't do that. It scares me (FOO issues), it makes me feel like a piece of meat, it makes me feel like you think you own my body, and I hate it! Yes, he finally learned to stop doing it. After at least 25 years of doing it! If that's the kind of learning curve he has, Lord help us!

But the truth is, he did it because HE wanted to do it, because HE wanted sex, he wanted ME to want to have sex, and he wasn't emotionally mature enough to understand that junior high pranks don't work with adults. No matter what, I was the afterthought. I can't even imagine what living with someone like MEM would be; this is all I've ever known.

That said, my H does really love me and want me to be happy; he's just incapable or unwilling to do any real change to himself to give it to me.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Turnera, I thought you might get drawn in by those comments, and I really was lazy and didn't research your past. Thanks for taking the time to explain the specifics. I really do feel that your situation (his acts leading to your distrust) is not a healthy situation. You are quite right to worry about my situation where we are so busy that housekeeping is considered a sacrifice and an act of service. And' I'll just have to accept that some men just can't learn to touch properly.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Any man can learn how to touch their wife in a loving way. Think of stroking a kitten. A light, gentle stroke down her arm tells her you care and find her attractive and want to be close to her (for an example). Softly placing your hand on her shoulder. You get the idea.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Again, it's in the mind. MEM hit on it perfectly. 

Back in the early days, touching my wife the way I would stroke a little kitten resulted in resentment from her for wanting sex. 

Nowadays, she loves the soft touches, but also craves the sexual ones.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

delete


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Trust is powerful.

And it is the underlying driver of how your partner responds. 




jld said:


> I don't think. I just enjoy it, get lost in it, let it lead to other things.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

MEM and As'laDain know what their wives like in the way of touch. Maybe, it is as simple as communication. If your wife recoils when you touch her, have a conversation and find out how she wants to be touched and when she wants to be touched. While doing chores may be a complete turnoff for some women, others wouldn't mind a pat on the fanny. She's your wife - ask her.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> Trust is powerful.
> 
> And it is the underlying driver of how your partner responds.


I am sure this is true. 

I love it when Dug touches me. Probably because it is (what I consider) infrequent, as he is not naturally affectionate.

That said, if I were mad at him about something, he would need to talk it out with me first for me to accept his touch. I need heartfelt words for real healing to take place.


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## bilbag (Aug 3, 2016)

Mr. Nail said:


> It does not matter what word is in the toucher's mind, it matters what word is in the touchee's mind.
> 
> Unfortunately the original poster on this thread used the word grope. But, whether his touches were gently and innocent or aggressive and sexual. The reaction that his partner is going to have to that touch depends entirely on how she interprets it.
> 
> ...


I used grope because my wife reacts in that way, unfortunately. But reading the posts here got me thinking that innocent touches as opposed to sexual ones have a good chance of acceptance so I do that now. And she likes that. But I want more. I don't touch expecting to get sex...I would be constantly disappointed. I long to touch her sexually because of the infrequency of sex. She has to make up for it somehow.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

bilbag said:


> I used grope because my wife reacts in that way, unfortunately. But reading the posts here got me thinking that innocent touches as opposed to sexual ones have a good chance of acceptance so I do that now. And she likes that. But I want more. I don't touch expecting to get sex...I would be constantly disappointed. I long to touch her sexually because of the infrequency of sex. *She has to make up for it somehow*.


Have you considered the impact of this attitude on the frequency of sex? You use her like a sex bot and she HAS to make up for it? Barf.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Blondilocks said:


> Any man can learn how to touch their wife in a loving way. Think of stroking a kitten. A light, gentle stroke down her arm tells her you care and find her attractive and want to be close to her (for an example). Softly placing your hand on her shoulder. You get the idea.


Apparently a lot of women find this ticklish and therefore not comfortable...


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

I think as a generalization, younger girls are okay with getting groped but as they get older (and more mature), they don't like it as they feel it is disrespectful. A teenage or 20s something girl might find it exciting when her boyfriend/husband gropes her but a 30+ or 40+ woman would find it annoying.

That is my general observation. And almost all women hate being groped in public, makes them feel like a wh0re.

Groped is a bad word in general and signals no feeling. Maybe 1 level below "molesting". Caressing is probably better. I love to feel up my wife at certain romantic times, but in private. Most times she lets me unless she is pissed at me or having her period or something like that.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Blondilocks said:


> MEM and As'laDain know what their wives like in the way of touch. Maybe, it is as simple as communication. If your wife recoils when you touch her, have a conversation and find out how she wants to be touched and when she wants to be touched. While doing chores may be a complete turnoff for some women, others wouldn't mind a pat on the fanny. She's your wife - ask her.


Advice to those who get answers along the lines of "I don't know (and I'm not interested in working it out)" or "YOU should just KNOW!"


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Advice? More conversation. About her. In general. Most women have a need for conversation. Are you the person she goes to for that? Are you safe for her to go to for that? What were her dreams growing up? Did she accomplish them? How has she compromised in her life? How does she feel about that? How does she see you in all that mix? Are you the safety net or the fishing net? What would she change? What's she missing? How are you Love Busting her? 

On and on.

And not all in one day, obviously. I imagine (hope) when you dated, you two were best friends, told each other everything, shared everything that happened in your day, were eager to get together to do more of the same. Is that still happening?

Open up the floodgates, become that person she goes to, and eventually, you'll likely start getting the answers you're looking for.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

turnera said:


> Advice? More conversation. About her. In general. Most women have a need for conversation. Are you the person she goes to for that? Are you safe for her to go to for that? What were her dreams growing up? Did she accomplish them? How has she compromised in her life? How does she feel about that? How does she see you in all that mix? Are you the safety net or the fishing net? What would she change? What's she missing? How are you Love Busting her?
> 
> On and on.
> 
> ...


All talk, no action, in other words. Allow her to go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and never actually tell you anything you can use, even if you know everything about every minute of her childhood. The signal to noise ratio in discussions like that tends to approach zero.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

turnera said:


> Advice? More conversation. About her. In general. Most women have a need for conversation. Are you the person she goes to for that? Are you safe for her to go to for that? What were her dreams growing up? Did she accomplish them? How has she compromised in her life? How does she feel about that? How does she see you in all that mix? Are you the safety net or the fishing net? What would she change? What's she missing? How are you Love Busting her?
> 
> On and on.
> 
> ...


That is certainly a big part of it. I made it clear to my wife that I really don't care what she thinks or feels when it comes to whether or not I will accept her or love her. The world could think she is disgusting, but she will always know that i don't care. She is my wife, and whatever it is that she may be afraid to tell me is just a thing to figure out. Nothing more. 

She has told me things she would never even tell her therapist.

I love hearing about her day. Though, sometimes I need to redirect her line of thinking if it starts to get too negative. You know, remind her of how much she has accomplished, remind her that she has been afraid before, and it was ok because she took care of it. And hey, I'm always there to help if she needs it. 


I'm not just committed to her when she is happy and it feels good. I'm committed to seeing her reach potentials she didn't even know were possible. 

Same as I am for me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

> All talk, no action, in other words. Allow her to go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and never actually tell you anything you can use, even if you know everything about every minute of her childhood. The signal to noise ratio in discussions like that tends to approach zero.


Wow. Never mind. You obviously don't care what your wife thinks anyway. Move along.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Sawney Beane said:


> All talk, no action, in other words. Allow her to go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and never actually tell you anything you can use, even if you know everything about every minute of her childhood. The signal to noise ratio in discussions like that tends to approach zero.


If a woman cannot safely tell her man about her day, why the hell would she ever tell him something he can USE?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

nirvana said:


> I think as a generalization, younger girls are okay with getting groped but as they get older (and more mature), they don't like it as they feel it is disrespectful. A teenage or 20s something girl might find it exciting when her boyfriend/husband gropes her but a 30+ or 40+ woman would find it annoying.
> 
> That is my general observation. And almost all women hate being groped in public, makes them feel like a wh0re.
> 
> Groped is a bad word in general and signals no feeling. Maybe 1 level below "molesting". Caressing is probably better. I love to feel up my wife at certain romantic times, but in private. Most times she lets me unless she is pissed at me or having her period or something like that.


In my wife's case, she never liked to be groped when she was younger. I think it is highly dependent on the situation. 

My wife feels safe with me and excited with me. So, she likes the groping. Even in public if kept at least a little bit discreet. Putting my hand down her pants, up her shirt and under her bra, etc. One of her favorite things to do in public is to put her hand down my pants and... get me hard. Then walk away giggling as I have to rearrange myself. Lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

I think you're missing the point - the hyperbole didn't help, I guess. If you have to essentially conduct a forensic psychological investigation to unravel her entire life history to figure out the answer to a question she won't ask herself, how many people are capable/qualified to be able to do this?


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Sawney Beane said:


> I think you're missing the point - the hyperbole didn't help, I guess. If you have to essentially conduct a forensic psychological investigation to unravel her entire life history to figure out the answer to a question she won't ask herself, how many people are capable/qualified to be able to do this?


You don't have to be qualified, but pretty much everyone is capable. But, as your comments display, very few are willing to do it. It is easier to resent the other person for what they feel than it is to actually know them well enough to help them change how they feel. 

Look at it from my perspective: I went from a sexless marriage where my wife was disgusted by my touch to a sex filled marriage where my wife can't get enough of it. But the things I did in order to get here are the things that most men balk at. They shouldn't have to, or they say it's impossible. 

I did it not because I want sex. I wanted sex with my wife. And lots of it. For me, being demisexual, the emotional intimacy is intrinsically tied to my sexual desire for my for my wife. So, I naturally wanted both. 

The stuff that did not really come so naturally was letting go of my own feelings about having to do something. That took a little practice. But once I figured that out, I let go of my own judgments on the things that I was asking my wife to do for me. Instead of thinking "she only wants to shut me up" I started thinking "wow, she really isn't into this, but is doing her best to make me feel loved. I really want to let her know how much I appreciate the effort!"

Make sense?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

As'laDain said:


> You don't have to be qualified, but pretty much everyone is capable. But, as your comments display, very few are willing to do it. It is easier to resent the other person for what they feel than it is to actually know them well enough to help them change how they feel.


And those who feel they should absolutely not even have to consider changing? You will know them well enough to know they don't want your help (or anyone else's) to change.



> Instead of thinking "she only wants to shut me up" I started thinking "wow, she really isn't into this, but is doing her best to make me feel loved. I really want to let her know how much I appreciate the effort!"
> 
> Make sense?


Sometimes people really _do_ just want you to shut up, though. Telling someone you appreciate the effort actually depends on them making any effort. If all they do is deflect, obfuscate and avoid, what do you praise?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

As'laDain said:


> You don't have to be qualified, but pretty much everyone is capable. But, as your comments display, very few are willing to do it. It is easier to resent the other person for what they feel than it is to actually know them well enough to help them change how they feel.
> 
> Look at it from my perspective: I went from a sexless marriage where my wife was disgusted by my touch to a sex filled marriage where my wife can't get enough of it. But the things I did in order to get here are the things that most men balk at. *They shouldn't have to,* or they say it's impossible.
> 
> ...


Makes a ton of sense.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Sawney Beane said:


> Apparently a lot of women find this ticklish and therefore not comfortable...


Could be. Or, you could be doing it wrong.:grin2:


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Sawney Beane said:


> And those who feel they should absolutely not even have to consider *changing*? You will know them well enough to know they don't want your help (or anyone else's) to *change*.
> 
> 
> Sometimes people really _do_ just want you to shut up, though. Telling someone you appreciate the effort actually depends on them making any effort. If all they do is deflect, obfuscate and avoid, what do you praise?


I don't know your back story. But there is something here.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Sawney Beane said:


> And those who feel they should absolutely not even have to consider changing? You will know them well enough to know they don't want your help (or anyone else's) to change.
> 
> 
> Sometimes people really _do_ just want you to shut up, though. Telling someone you appreciate the effort actually depends on them making any effort. If all they do is deflect, obfuscate and avoid, what do you praise?


If you don't want to change, then move on or accept what you have and be happy with it. If you won't move on and you won't be happy with it, then you are expecting your partner to change for you. 

And that just doesn't work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JamesTKirk (Sep 8, 2015)

As'laDain said:


> You don't have to be qualified, but pretty much everyone is capable. But, as your comments display, very few are willing to do it. It is easier to resent the other person for what they feel than it is to actually know them well enough to help them change how they feel.
> 
> Look at it from my perspective: I went from a sexless marriage where my wife was disgusted by my touch to a sex filled marriage where my wife can't get enough of it. But the things I did in order to get here are the things that most men balk at. They shouldn't have to, or they say it's impossible.
> 
> ...


I'm now going to search ever post you ever made for that advice. :wink2:


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

JamesTKirk said:


> I'm now going to search ever post you ever made for that advice. :wink2:


Have fun!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bilbag (Aug 3, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> Have you considered the impact of this attitude on the frequency of sex? You use her like a sex bot and she HAS to make up for it? Barf.


Actually sex is amazing when it happens. I can't get enough of her. If she was a sex bot I would use her more often.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

bilbag said:


> Actually sex is amazing when it happens. I can't get enough of her. If she was a sex bot I would use her more often.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How does SHE feel? Do you care?


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## bilbag (Aug 3, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> How does SHE feel? Do you care?


I think she enjoys it but I am afraid or embarrassed to ask. She has said previously that she would rather not have sex. But she does it anyway for our marriage. She looks and sounds like she enjoys it though. I certainly do. If I ask and she says she would rather not have sex, that could complicate things. I care about her deeply though. But I don't think I can survive a sexless marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I haven't read all the posts...but count me in on the loves to grope and be groped crowd!

Though I've known so many people who really dislike groping or any kind of unwanted touching (determined by them) and hey, if that is how someone is wired, that's cool and fine, too. 

I don't think there's a right or wrong on this one (not that anyone said there is). Just sayin', if you are a happy groper or gropee...it doesn't mean someone who isn't should let you grope them if they don't want to. Spouse or not.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

bilbag;16430370[B said:


> ]I think she enjoys it but I am afraid or embarrassed to ask. [/B]She has said previously that she would rather not have sex. But she does it anyway for our marriage. She looks and sounds like she enjoys it though. I certainly do. If I ask and she says she would rather not have sex, that could complicate things. I care about her deeply though. But I don't think I can survive a sexless marriage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What ages are you two?
Why are you afraid to talk about your sex life?
This is not an ideal situation.

Here, we have a goals book, sit down on occasion and discuss and make plans on topics in the book.
Topics include health, travel, social, spiritual, intellectual, financial and SEX. 

Sex is on the top tier of important topics to discuss in a marriage.


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## bilbag (Aug 3, 2016)

MrsHolland said:


> What ages are you two?
> Why are you afraid to talk about your sex life?
> This is not an ideal situation.
> 
> ...


Late 40s. I don't want to bring up the subject because it isn't high on her priorities. We just have to take it slow. She says she can do without. Which doesn't make sense because she seems like she enjoys it when it happens. But if I push too hard she will feel like she is taken advantage of. Not too many months ago, she said we should divorce since she cannot make me happy sexually and she may not be in love any more. So I stop pushing.
I like your goals book idea. l like the efforts spouses are making to keep their intimacy going strong. I read HNHN and like the concept of the Love Bank where acts are worth what your partner deems.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

It is a long thread now OP and I have forgotten the general jist of it.

Late 40's means you are in what should be the best years of your life. Your wife has told you she doesn't want a partnership with you, have you considered divorce?


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Two ways of looking at this.

She can do without sex without it affecting her happiness. You can't. She thinks you can. I think you are correct, you can't.

She can do without sex without it affecting her willingness to remain married to you (in fact, she prefers to remain married to you but not to have sex with you). You think you can't go without sex and remain willing to be married to her. She thinks you can. Time to find out who is correct. I am betting on her.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Sawney Beane said:


> I think you're missing the point - the hyperbole didn't help, I guess. If you have to essentially conduct a forensic psychological investigation to unravel her entire life history to figure out the answer to a question she won't ask herself, how many people are capable/qualified to be able to do this?


I know at least one 

The issue is (a) signal to noise ratio, which tends to get worse with more talk - repetition - and no action and (B) even with action, talk talk talk may continue ad infinitum ad nauseum regardless of whether the original issue was addressed.


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## bilbag (Aug 3, 2016)

MrsHolland said:


> It is a long thread now OP and I have forgotten the general jist of it.
> 
> Late 40's means you are in what should be the best years of your life. Your wife has told you she doesn't want a partnership with you, have you considered divorce?


She does want a partnership but with little sex. Neither of want a divorce.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bilbag (Aug 3, 2016)

Holdingontoit said:


> Two ways of looking at this.
> 
> She can do without sex without it affecting her happiness. You can't. She thinks you can. I think you are correct, you can't.
> 
> She can do without sex without it affecting her willingness to remain married to you (in fact, she prefers to remain married to you but not to have sex with you). You think you can't go without sex and remain willing to be married to her. She thinks you can. Time to find out who is correct. I am betting on her.


I am easy to please. My only condition is that she makes an effort to have sex. I am betting we will find a happy solution. Right now we are having sex so I am happy. The future is what is unclear.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

bilbag said:


> *She does want a partnership *but with little sex. Neither of want a divorce.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Are you sure? She may want a partnership but it seems she doesn't care about it being a healthy one.

You said earlier that she suggested divorce as she cannot give you what you want. This was either genuine and if so it might be time to consider divorce.
Or it was a power play as she knows you won't divorce her and now she also doesn't have to have sex with you.

Life is short, are you going to waste yours?


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## bilbag (Aug 3, 2016)

MrsHolland said:


> Are you sure? She may want a partnership but it seems she doesn't care about it being a healthy one.
> 
> You said earlier that she suggested divorce as she cannot give you what you want. This was either genuine and if so it might be time to consider divorce.
> Or it was a power play as she knows you won't divorce her and now she also doesn't have to have sex with you.
> ...


She brought love and joy to my life so I have a very difficult time to let my marriage go. Right now it is easy to stay because there is still sex. I can't work with zero though. I am hoping her desire will improve in time as she was early on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

bilbag said:


> She brought love and joy to my life so I have a very difficult time to let my marriage go. Right now it is easy to stay because there is still sex. I can't work with zero though. I am hoping her desire will improve in time as she was early on.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's silly. Why would it improve? You aren't doing anything to change the situation.


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## bilbag (Aug 3, 2016)

turnera said:


> That's silly. Why would it improve? You aren't doing anything to change the situation.


I'm groping her less. I read HNHN. Listening to her more. I fixed the bed frame so it doesn't squeak. Why would it not improve? I'm on a rollercoaster ride and I am just going to ride it out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

bilbag said:


> I think she enjoys it but I am afraid or embarrassed to ask. She has said previously that she would rather not have sex. But she does it anyway for our marriage. She looks and sounds like she enjoys it though. I certainly do. If I ask and she says she would rather not have sex, that could complicate things. I care about her deeply though. But I don't think I can survive a sexless marriage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 @bilbag believe it or not your instincts are right in this situation. Women do *NOT* like to be asked for sex. 

What do women want? A man that is confident enough to get what is wanted for both him and her to the point she does not have to sit around and worry about what she wants. 

You want to see a women get so frustrated that it will make you laugh? Hold chocolates in one hand and flowers in the other. Tell her she can only have one! Do you want to know why you will laugh? She will start tickling you until she gets BOTH so she does not have to decide!

Badsanta


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

spotthedeaddog said:


> Same with cuddling many times too.
> Very hard to deal with when you think your lady is special.


What percent of cuddling times is "many times" ? Is it almost every single time? And how soon after the cuddling starts do you change from affectionate cuddling to sexual advances? 

Are you able to snuggle on the couch and watch a whole movie with her without making it sexual? Or spoon in bed and go to sleep without having sex?

I understanding touching can turn from affection to sexual, but if it *always* turns that way for you and turns that way quickly, you may think your wife is just super special that she gets you so turned on, but I doubt she feels very special if you can't give her the kind of nonsexual affection one would give a child or pet without wanting sex.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> I haven't read all the posts...but count me in on the loves to grope and be groped crowd!
> 
> Though I've known so many people who really dislike groping or any kind of unwanted touching (determined by them) and hey, if that is how someone is wired, that's cool and fine, too.
> 
> I don't think there's a right or wrong on this one (not that anyone said there is). Just sayin', if you are a happy groper or gropee...it doesn't mean someone who isn't should let you grope them if they don't want to. Spouse or not.


I have 2 questions for you. I'm very interested in you liking being groped 'cause it's usually the women who complain about getting groped. 

Any other "pro grope me" women who see this please also feel free to answer:

1. Let's say you're standing up, busy doing something (like cooking) and your husband walks up behind you and grabs your breast and pinches your nipple out of the blue, or grabs your crotch and starts rubbing himself up against you from behind - you are saying you do like that and are immediately receptive to it? 

2. After your husband gropes you and you don't resist, does he always immediately want sex right then and there - or does he go on about his business and leave you to finish what you're doing?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

WorkingWife said:


> I have 2 questions for you. I'm very interested in you liking being groped 'cause it's usually the women who complain about getting groped.
> 
> Any other "pro grope me" women who see this please also feel free to answer:
> 
> ...


Sounds really sexy! And we can always just turn off the stove, and get back to cooking later.

I feel loved by him, and he is not selfish or needy. That is surely why groping is not a turn off here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

MrsHolland said:


> Are you sure? She may want a partnership but it seems she doesn't care about it being a healthy one.
> 
> You said earlier that she suggested divorce as she cannot give you what you want. This was either genuine and if so it might be time to consider divorce.
> Or it was a power play as she knows you won't divorce her and now she also doesn't have to have sex with you.
> ...


I vote for power play

She will not change if you do not 'push', decide for yourself (bilbag) how often is appropriate to make you unhappiness known. Daily or weekly is whiny but every month or two or three probably reasonable. Destabilize.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

WorkingWife said:


> What percent of cuddling times is "many times" ? Is it almost every single time? And how soon after the cuddling starts do you change from affectionate cuddling to sexual advances?
> 
> Are you able to snuggle on the couch and watch a whole movie with her without making it sexual? Or spoon in bed and go to sleep without having sex?
> 
> I understanding touching can turn from affection to sexual, but if it *always* turns that way for you and turns that way quickly, you may think your wife is just super special that she gets you so turned on, *but I doubt she feels very special if you can't give her the kind of nonsexual affection one would give a child or pet without wanting sex.*


This is a bit of an unreasonable expectation I think. 

It is reasonable to expect cuddling to be 'non-sexual' in that he doesn't always or maybe mostly doesn't try to move it on to sexual touching. 

It is NOT reasonable to expect the guy to always be able to engage in non-sexual cuddling 'as you would with a child or pet' and not himself have a sexual reaction, you are not a child or a pet. In other words, the wife needs to understand that the flagpole goes up and down many times a day at thoughts of her and he can choose not to act on that but can't be expected not to have that reaction.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

bilbag said:


> I think she enjoys it but *I am afraid or embarrassed to ask*. She has said previously that she would rather not have sex. But she does it anyway for our marriage. She looks and sounds like she enjoys it though. I certainly do. If I ask and she says she would rather not have sex, that could complicate things. I care about her deeply though. But I don't think I can survive a sexless marriage.


Unless you can get over this fear, nothing is going to change. She senses it. You need to do whatever it takes to conquer this fear, and become someone she can be open and honest with. How are you going to encourage her to want sex more if you have no idea if she likes it or not?



bilbag said:


> I am easy to please. My only condition is that she makes an effort to have sex. I am betting we will find a happy solution. Right now we are having sex so I am happy. The future is what is unclear.


She's making an effort not because she is enjoying it, but because she knows you will divorce her if she doesn't. She may feel as valuable to you as a sex bot would be. In other words, a useful object, but not intimately loved.

You need to be able to express enough love for her that you would be willing to survive a sexless marriage.

No woman wants to feel that their husband would divorce them, if, say, they became paralyzed in an accident or something, and could no longer have sex. She needs to feel like the centre of your universe, not just a convenient sex bot substitute.

Right now you are happy because you are getting sex. For your wife, it's not nearly that easy. I'm betting your wife is getting more and more miserable, as quietly as possible.

Start working on finding other things about your marriage that make you happy. Nobody enjoys the responsibility of feeling like the sole source of your happiness, especially if the process isn't pleasant for them in return.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

jld said:


> Sounds really sexy! And we can always just turn off the stove, and get back to cooking later.
> 
> I feel loved by him, and he is not selfish or needy. That is surely why groping is not a turn off here.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks! When I was a teen I always said I wanted to write the sex scenes for romance novels when I grew up...

...but that doesn't answer my whole question. "Sounds sexy" sounds like YES, you (and your body) are immedately receptive to being touched tha way. And you say you COULD always turn off the stove...

But my second questions was, does it ALWAYS lead to your H wanting sex right then and there, or does he sometimes just "grope" and move on.

And now I have a new question...  If your H does always want, and get, sex from you every time he gropes you, how often does that occur?

I have a memory of not minding being groped when I was young (say in my 20's) but I think part of my current aversion to it is:

1. 100% of the time, if I am receptive, it leads to sex, which, I am not emotionally or physically ready for when my head is somewhere else and the groping is unexpected. In my first marriage, that meant sex every day, maybe twice a day. (And he was STILL screwing around on me, but that's a whole other thread...)

2. In my current relationship sex is infrequent, but it means sex with no foreplay - no kissing, no intimacy, no building up, just "You let me grab you, hey, I have an idea, let's have sex right now."


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

anonmd said:


> This is a bit of an unreasonable expectation I think.
> 
> It is reasonable to expect cuddling to be 'non-sexual' in that he doesn't always or maybe mostly doesn't try to move it on to sexual touching.
> 
> It is NOT reasonable to expect the guy to always be able to engage in non-sexual cuddling 'as you would with a child or pet' and not himself have a sexual reaction, you are not a child or a pet. In other words, the wife needs to understand that the flagpole goes up and down many times a day at thoughts of her and he can choose not to act on that but can't be expected not to have that reaction.


I totally understand that. And it would be a very sad world if the flag pole never went up!!!

I'm just pointing out that there is a _*difference*_ between affection and sexual touching. True "Affection" is completely non-sexual.

Now, true affection can certainly _*turn *_sexual for any red-blooded person, man or woman. But what I know from my own reaction, as a woman, is that if every single time my H touches me in any way, he turns to sex within 2 seconds to 2 minutes, I start to feel objectified and harassed and I am very leery of any "affection" because I have learned that as soon as I start to relax and enjoy the what I thought was a sign of affection - a physical demonstration of care and cherish - I quickly learn that there is no such thing with that particular man. If he's touching me, he wants sex. End of subject. There is no "intimacy" in that, IMO.

So when a MAN says "My wife doesn't like being touched period." and "Well, it's hard for me to be affectionate without it turning sexual" I wonder if his wife is not _*feeling *_like she has to get away from him every time he tries to touch her or he will want sex, and she doesn't want sex because she's come to feel like that is _*all *_he wants from her, which makes her feel used and objectified. 

He wants her to fulfill his sexual needs but he won't (or can't?) fulfill her needs for affection and other non-sexual types of intimacy. It becomes a negative feedback loop - she feels emotionally detatched and unloved so she rejects him for sex. The more she rejects him sexually, the more starved he becomes for sex, the more starved he becomes for sex the less he is able to be genuinely affectionate and the less loved and more hounded she feels and suddenly, they're both resentful and she doesn't want him to touch her because he won't touch her unless it's for sex, and he can't touch her without pushing for sex because he's not getting any sex and he's beyond frustrated.

Not a good dynamic...


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## bilbag (Aug 3, 2016)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> She's making an effort not because she is enjoying it, but because she knows you will divorce her if she doesn't. She may feel as valuable to you as a sex bot would be. In other words, a useful object, but not intimately loved.
> 
> You need to be able to express enough love for her that you would be willing to survive a sexless marriage.
> 
> ...


She is the center of my universe. I am very much attracted to her. I don't think I would divorce her if something dreadful happens like an accident, etc. But right now she is healthy and nothing to prevent her from having sex except in her mind. She thinks I use her like a trash can to unload my junk. She is wrong. And she is free to leave. I tell her she can have the kids, the house, the money if she wants to divorce. She says no. I don't see the reason to express a love that can survive a sexless marriage. That would only encourage her to be even more sexless.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

bilbag said:


> She is the center of my universe. I am very much attracted to her. I don't think I would divorce her if something dreadful happens like an accident, etc. But right now she is healthy and nothing to prevent her from having sex except in her mind. *She thinks I use her like a trash can to unload my junk*. She is wrong. And she is free to leave. I tell her she can have the kids, the house, the money if she wants to divorce. She says no. I don't see the reason to express a love that can survive a sexless marriage. That would only encourage her to be even more sexless.


*Why* does she think that? 

You say she is the center of your universe and you are very attracted to her, but you sound very indifferent to what she is feeling.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

WorkingWife said:


> *Why* does she think that?
> 
> You say she is the center of your universe and you are very attracted to her, but you sound very indifferent to what she is feeling.


And...

That he doesn't _think_ he would divorce her if she had an accident. 

I love you...you're the center of my universe...I'm very attracted to you...

But if you have an accident, I might_ leave _you.

Does anyone _else_ see the _disconnect_ here?


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Yes, you do understand .

Now, either you can break that cyclical dynamic or you could wait for him to figure it out. The former requires at a minimum a very frank discussion, perhaps a full on argument, repeated several times. The latter may never happen, what you have described is a feature not a bug. Or I suppose there is always andropause at some point between 50 and 80.

Also realize that when you are in that dynamic you may not even register the times he did something affectionate that didn't move further. Granted, it's probably miniscule but maybe it is 97 out of a hundred rather than every time.




WorkingWife said:


> I totally understand that. And it would be a very sad world if the flag pole never went up!!!
> 
> I'm just pointing out that there is a _*difference*_ between affection and sexual touching. True "Affection" is completely non-sexual.
> 
> ...


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

bilbag said:


> She is the center of my universe. I am very much attracted to her. I don't think I would divorce her if something dreadful happens like an accident, etc. But right now she is healthy and nothing to prevent her from having sex except in her mind. She thinks I use her like a trash can to unload my junk.


If you continue to pursue sex with her without fixing this perception in HER, then



> She is wrong.


She is right.



> And she is free to leave. I tell her she can have the kids, the house, the money if she wants to divorce. She says no. I don't see the reason to express a love that can survive a sexless marriage. That would only encourage her to be even more sexless.


 Poor woman. Be my sex bot or get out. F your feelings.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

WorkingWife said:


> Thanks! When I was a teen I always said I wanted to write the sex scenes for romance novels when I grew up...
> 
> ...but that doesn't answer my whole question. "Sounds sexy" sounds like YES, you (and your body) are immedately receptive to being touched tha way. And you say you COULD always turn off the stove...
> 
> But my second questions was, does it ALWAYS lead to your H wanting sex right then and there, or does he sometimes just "grope" and move on.


Depends on if the kids are around, or if he has something else going on. But generally, if kids are not around, yes, sex is very likely to follow the groping.



> And now I have a new question...  If your H does always want, and get, sex from you every time he gropes you, how often does that occur?


Well, because kids are usually around, groping is not very common. 



> I have a memory of not minding being groped when I was young (say in my 20's) but I think part of my current aversion to it is:
> 
> 1. 100% of the time, if I am receptive, it leads to sex, which, I am not emotionally or physically ready for when my head is somewhere else and the groping is unexpected. In my first marriage, that meant sex every day, maybe twice a day. (And he was STILL screwing around on me, but that's a whole other thread...)
> 
> 2. In my current relationship sex is infrequent, but it means sex with no foreplay - no kissing, no intimacy, no building up, just "You let me grab you, hey, I have an idea, let's have sex right now."


You certainly should not do anything you do not feel comfortable with. He is not entitled to your body.

If he wants you to be receptive, he needs to work on the whole relationship. Is he spending enough time with you, being sensitive to your emotional needs, just doing whatever he can to keep the relationship healthy and happy?


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## bilbag (Aug 3, 2016)

WorkingWife said:


> *Why* does she think that?
> 
> You say she is the center of your universe and you are very attracted to her, but you sound very indifferent to what she is feeling.


She thinks that because she would rather not have sex and I do. Call it indifferent, I call it different. We both know where we stand and we are trying to work through it. We have been together for 22 yrs, been faithful to one another, and neither wants to leave because we love each other. I'm not sure what I sound like but I do love her. And she is a very bright, attractive woman. She would not stay if I was unkind to her. She's got counsel from her friends and she chooses to stay with me despite me offering everything if she chooses to leave because I care for her and kids. But I don't think it's fair to call off having sex. Or is it? I think it will resolve in a compromise on frequency, hopefully willingly and joyfully. 
I thought marriage gets easier in time. Instead, it gets stronger but there are always tough challenges to get through. It is a learning opportunity for us.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

[quote = nobodyspecial]
[Quote = Originally Posted by bilbag View Post]
She is the center of my universe. I am very much attracted to her. I don't think I would divorce her if something dreadful happens like an accident, etc. But right now she is healthy and nothing to prevent her from having sex except in her mind. She thinks I use her like a trash can to unload my junk.
[/quote]
If you continue to pursue sex with her without fixing this perception in HER, then
[/quote]

That's incorrect nobodySpecial.
Fixing that perception in her will make things worse - that's what men have been doing wrong, and women keep telling the men the wrong thing.
Famous, powerful, and rich people have been treating women like garbage for millennia but they come and the women crawl back to them for more - and modern men have been telling women how important they are and how much they care about them and have the footprints over their backs to show for it. "oooh they like bad boys" goes the peanut gallery.

No. What he needs to do is become someone she respects and desires.
Only then when he has some worth in her eyes, will turning his attention to her make her happy.

If a worm tries to impress a woman, or an easy to get guy tells a woman how much she is so wonderful, she will consider him below her worth and treat him like garbage/annoyance - and resent every moment that he's around. "Studly men" aren't popular because they're easy, they're popular because they're someone that catches women's attention.

Bilbag, is smitten with her, and yet he doesn't impress her, so she has no respect for her and will resent his attempt to approach her. If he says she's the center of his world she will just be more offended, and will at best, take it as a "notch on the belt" of her popularity and amount she is above him.

[Quote = Nobodyspecial]
[quote = bilbag]
She is wrong. 
[/quote]
She is right.
[/quote]

They're both wrong. Otherwise one of them could have fixed it by now.

[Quote:]


> And she is free to leave. I tell her she can have the kids, the house, the money if she wants to divorce. She says no. I don't see the reason to express a love that can survive a sexless marriage. That would only encourage her to be even more sexless.


 Poor woman. Be my sex bot or get out. F your feelings.
[/quote]

Should he be able to freely take lovers and prostitutes then for his sexual needs if she doesn't want to be involved in the sexual side of the marriage relationship.
She wants all her part of the contract covered but isn't willing to see to any of his (HNHN) - true "or get out" is too much of a passive aggressive ultimatium, if she doesn't want to be full partner in the relationship, which includes physical sex, he should just kick her out and find a partner who is willing since they are out there.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

bilbag said:


> She thinks that because she would rather not have sex and I do. Call it indifferent, I call it different. We both know where we stand and we are trying to work through it. We have been together for 22 yrs, been faithful to one another, and neither wants to leave because we love each other. I'm not sure what I sound like but I do love her. And she is a very bright, attractive woman. She would not stay if I was unkind to her. She's got counsel from her friends and she chooses to stay with me despite me offering everything if she chooses to leave because I care for her and kids. But I don't think it's fair to call off having sex. Or is it? I think it will resolve in a compromise on frequency, hopefully willingly and joyfully.
> I thought marriage gets easier in time. Instead, it gets stronger but there are always tough challenges to get through. It is a learning opportunity for us.


That is tough. I know my natural sex drive has definitely diminished over the years. If her lack of desire is truly not due to problems in the relationship or your approach to sex, then I agree with you, it's definitely not fair to call off having sex.

Then I guess it comes down to a bit of a negotiation - what's your idea of a sex life? Every day? Every other day? Once a week? Twice a month? etc. If she has no sex drive and you want it four times a week - that's going to seem like an unsurmountable problem to her.

It's like visiting my mom. Doesn't matter how much I DO call or visit, it's never enough, so why call or visit at all if I'm not really enjoying it and she's dissatisfied either way?

Also the approach - I'm sorry I've not kept track of who the original poster of this thread is but it is the "groping" thread. If your idea of initiating sex with your wife is to just walk up and ask for it, or hug or kiss her but then switch to sex within seconds of her not shoving you away, she's probably never going to be in the mood.

I actually have a higher sex drive than my husband. But his idea of initiating sex is to see me changing clothes and out of the blue (to me) say "Do you want to love?" Then when I don't instantly leap at the idea because I'm startled, he gets hurt and says nevermind.

I've told him what would put me in the mood, but he simply will not do it. In our case, he doesn't really want it that bad though so he's not motivated.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

For people for whom sex has become boring and unappealing, you could try getting the book 52 Invitations to Grrreat Sex. It's a book of 52 invitations - 26 for the woman to give and 26 for the man to give. It helps you set up fun 'events' that help you bond, enjoy the time, and look forward to more.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

WorkingWife said:


> I have 2 questions for you. I'm very interested in you liking being groped 'cause it's usually the women who complain about getting groped.
> 
> Any other "pro grope me" women who see this please also feel free to answer:
> 
> ...


Sorry I did not get back to you sooner, @WorkingWife ...

1. I love this. I do it to him, too. "Him" being either my ex or whoever I'm dating. Yes I'm always receptive. We sort of train each other on how best to do this without causing the other one to drop the spatula or knife in their hand. In fact it can be a turn on to do this to each other when some skill in not dropping utensils has to be used. Of course, we would never do it if the other is holding something hot like a broiling pan or anything that could cause injury to either of us. A little danger in the kitchen is a turn on...especially combined with a grope. More than a little danger.....all you have to do is wait until they put the boiling pot of potatoes down and then go for the grope. 

We also train each other in how we like to be groped or mauled or pinched or what not. I personally don't want my nipples directly pinched out of the blue, and he always respects that. But there are a lot of ways he can stimulate me that directly which I do enjoy. I also enjoy him rubbing himself on me if groping me made him have an erection. 

2. No it rarely leads to sex. Groping is a an all day long, any time, anywhere thing. When we are going to have sex, we usually know about it in advance. Spontaneous sex could occur from a fun grope, but it rarely does, because sex happens frequently and is always looked forward to later. That's partially why the grope is so fun. There's sometimes a "I'm so gonna ride you later..." whispered in the ear along with the grope. And again, I mean that either of us might do this to the other, not just him to me.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

WorkingWife said:


> What percent of cuddling times is "many times" ? Is it almost every single time? And how soon after the cuddling starts do you change from affectionate cuddling to sexual advances?
> 
> Are you able to snuggle on the couch and watch a whole movie with her without making it sexual? Or spoon in bed and go to sleep without having sex?
> 
> I understanding touching can turn from affection to sexual, but if it *always* turns that way for you and turns that way quickly, you may think your wife is just super special that she gets you so turned on, but I doubt she feels very special if you can't give her the kind of nonsexual affection one would give a child or pet without wanting sex.


dratted quote thingy dropped the earlier comment, sorry.

Many times is almost all the time.
But you're not quite reading the text in the correct context, and I apologise for my poor writing and communicaton skills, and thus inability to communicate it more effectively.

I don't give children or pets sexual affection because it is highly inappropriate and thus my mind remains that they are not sexual beings or sexually attractive, and should that line be crossed I need seek help urgently (though I know better than to communicate to any professional or person who seems interested for they are legally bound to report such things to authorities who have no interest in prevention or assistance, and that admission even in "confidential" counselling sessions is considered legal testimony and public presentable in Court ... the stuff you learn about privacy laws....).

Whereas my partner is someone who I find and originally found sexually attractive.

So therefore when I cuddle arousal is almost guaranteed, and indeed, I am concerned about health or stress on the very rare occasion that her touch does not arouse me.
I am less aroused by others who aren't special to me, but if they are sexual beings, and we share intimate physical contact - then that too is sexually arousing.

This is why it is important for men to learn to lie and not be honest in a relationship. She does not want to know about these things.
We had a few times, where I was just too tired, so we would cuddle and watch a movie, or watch the stars during a break in a long drive - she would say "isn't it nice that we can 'just cuddle' " - from me "no, really it isn't". At best I'm horny and rejected; horny tired and rejected; or just not feeling in the mood. She dimply does NOT want to know those truths, or have them communicated to her.

At worst it reminds me of all those times I spent more than I should and took a girl out for evenings, put my own important things (assignments, practice sessions, family, interests) on hold so she and I could have some special time and then she left me/didn't call back/slept with my sleazy mate/got totally boozed and threw up in my car or couch, all on my dime. You know how that feels right?
That's how the one-sided "just cuddling" feels.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

The other thing about "just cuddling".... I know that leads straight to the dreaded "friend-zone". so if my partner wants to do more of the "just cuddling" that's where she's trying to put me. We didn't "just cuddle" when we started exploring each other and become something more than friends....so friendzoning me is the first step in just using me and kicking me to the curb when she finds something more exciting. (be it a EA/PA or just folding envelopes for the local farmers' market)


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## vel (Aug 27, 2016)

Groping is fun. It's just like hugging with some creativity.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

spotthedeaddog said:


> The other thing about "just cuddling".... I know that leads straight to the dreaded "friend-zone". so if my partner wants to do more of the "just cuddling" that's where she's trying to put me. We didn't "just cuddle" when we started exploring each other and become something more than friends....so friendzoning me is the first step in just using me and kicking me to the curb when she finds something more exciting. (be it a EA/PA or just folding envelopes for the local farmers' market)


So you can't just sit on the couch, legs tangled, arm around her, and watch tv? That's cuddling.


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## bilbag (Aug 3, 2016)

vel said:


> Groping is fun. It's just like hugging with some creativity.


If you are busy doing the dishes or cooking and you are caressed, that would not surprise and upset you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## vel (Aug 27, 2016)

bilbag said:


> If you are busy doing the dishes or cooking and you are caressed, that would not surprise and upset you?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't do chores; we both work fulltime and have a maid. Whenever I'm home it's playtime.

If you are groping your wife when she's working and making it difficult for her to continue then yeah, that could be a problem! Depends on how strongly you do it? A quick shoulder rub or peck on the cheek would be pleasant, but full on humping to the point of making the oil fly out would be really annoying!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

turnera said:


> So you can't just sit on the couch, legs tangled, arm around her, and watch tv? That's cuddling.


Of course I can ... but I find it arousing as well as cuddling.


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## bilbag (Aug 3, 2016)

vel said:


> I don't do chores; we both work fulltime and have a maid. Whenever I'm home it's playtime.
> 
> If you are groping your wife when she's working and making it difficult for her to continue then yeah, that could be a problem! Depends on how strongly you do it? A quick shoulder rub or peck on the cheek would be pleasant, but full on humping to the point of making the oil fly out would be really annoying!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Safety comes first of course! And no humping in the kitchen, we've got kids around.
I like how you do no chores and play instead. As long as you get a good workout. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

spotthedeaddog said:


> Of course I can ... but I find it arousing as well as cuddling.


So?

If you get a hard on, you have to act on it?


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

I sometimes wonder if women just like a grope or two from their husbands once in a while in a private setting. Kinda nasty! I cop a feel sometimes when she is in bed and with no bra on but wearing a shirt.


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## BillK (Sep 7, 2016)

Used to fondle my wife a lot. Couldn't keep my hands off her. If she was getting dressed, I couldn't help caressing her breasts. So, I never groped, but fondled a lot and she liked it.

Until almost over night she became a "skin crawler" and couldn't stand it anymore. That was 11 years ago, and it's still the same today.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

or maybe she pretended to like it (or pretended not to mind, and you took the absence of complaint to indicate enjoyment), an then 11 years ago she finally no longer could bear to pretend any longer?


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

turnera said:


> So?
> 
> If you get a hard on, you have to act on it?


This so richly deserves a reply. The question is only which reply to give.

1) or at least an ice pack.
2) isn't covering it with a sweater an act?
3) I can't remember.


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## dubsey (Feb 21, 2013)

WorkingWife said:


> I have 2 questions for you. I'm very interested in you liking being groped 'cause it's usually the women who complain about getting groped.
> 
> Any other "pro grope me" women who see this please also feel free to answer:
> 
> ...



We grope, a lot. It doesn't often lead to sex unless there are no kids around. It usually encompasses one of two things.

1. She'll be doing something, most often in the kitchen, I'll walk by, put my arms around her waist, reach up, grab me some boobies, give her a kiss on the back of the neck just below the hairline, and walk away to go do whatever it is I was passing through for.

2. as I walk by I'll smack her or pinch her arse, she wiggles it at me, I keep moving - again to do what ever it is I was going to go do.

at one point, I thought it was bothering her, so I stopped doing it for a while. She got mad, so I continue to grope away.

I've never been with a woman who didn't appreciate it - so maybe it's just in how it's presented and done? I don't know.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

Interesting. 

Sorry for the slow reply - I have been extremely busy and not had time to come in here.

I guess my next question would be how often DO you have sex?

As a woman it would not bother me to think that my H could not touch me without getting aroused. But it would bother me it his arousal - his being sexually satisfied - was more important to him than I was. If we have a good sex life in general I would like to think he could enjoy being close to me just to be close to me. And knowing it meant a lot to me.

If you were not in a sexual mood and she said "isn't this nice"and you thought "No." then it sounds like affection doesn't do anything for you personally. Which then begs the question she is probably asking in her mind - if you know that SHE really likes and craves it, because she has told you as much, if you are unwilling to do it for her, how much _*do *_you care about her as a whole person and not just someone to have sex with?

The dilemma is that most women are wired to be sexually aroused by feeling loved and cared for and emotionally intimate with their mate. Men are wired to be sexually aroused by female flesh... But if the guy won't every hold her just to hold her, she gets the message that he does not really care about her, and that is a sexual turn off.

So of the women on here who said they do like being groped, it seems usually a grope is just a grope, it doesn't turn into sex right then every time they are receptive. So far I don't think any women have said "every-time one of us gropes the other it immediately turns into sex." I don't know about cuddling. But it seems the men who are getting groped and getting to grope are enjoying good sex lives but not turning every touch into a request for sex.

As for animals and children, haha I hope the ONLY reason it doesn't turn sexual is not because it's illegal! My point regarding that type of affection was that it a complete need, not a prelude to sex. People cuddle with animals and children to express love and caring. Children like to be held because it makes them feel loved, cared for, safe, close, etc. I assume it's similar for animals, they like to sit on your lap or next to you because that in itself makes them happy. I understand your woman turns you on and animals and children don't, but if you LIKE petting a dog, or letting a little tyke snuggle up to you on the couch while you read to them or watch TV, that is the type of affection I am trying to describe, that a woman wants when she says she wants affection. If you almost always turn it to sex, rightly or wrongly, she gets the message that she is of no interest/value to you unless she's getting you off. And you knowing she wants that affection and not being able/willing to give it to her is a clear message. She likely believes that if you're not getting sex, you feel time with her is wasted. Her company/closeness is not of value on its own. To most women, that is a turn off.



QUOTE=spotthedeaddog;16494610]dratted quote thingy dropped the earlier comment, sorry.

Many times is almost all the time.
But you're not quite reading the text in the correct context, and I apologise for my poor writing and communicaton skills, and thus inability to communicate it more effectively.

I don't give children or pets sexual affection because it is highly inappropriate and thus my mind remains that they are not sexual beings or sexually attractive, and should that line be crossed I need seek help urgently (though I know better than to communicate to any professional or person who seems interested for they are legally bound to report such things to authorities who have no interest in prevention or assistance, and that admission even in "confidential" counselling sessions is considered legal testimony and public presentable in Court ... the stuff you learn about privacy laws....).

Whereas my partner is someone who I find and originally found sexually attractive.

So therefore when I cuddle arousal is almost guaranteed, and indeed, I am concerned about health or stress on the very rare occasion that her touch does not arouse me.
I am less aroused by others who aren't special to me, but if they are sexual beings, and we share intimate physical contact - then that too is sexually arousing.

This is why it is important for men to learn to lie and not be honest in a relationship. She does not want to know about these things.
We had a few times, where I was just too tired, so we would cuddle and watch a movie, or watch the stars during a break in a long drive - she would say "isn't it nice that we can 'just cuddle' " - from me "no, really it isn't". At best I'm horny and rejected; horny tired and rejected; or just not feeling in the mood. She dimply does NOT want to know those truths, or have them communicated to her.

At worst it reminds me of all those times I spent more than I should and took a girl out for evenings, put my own important things (assignments, practice sessions, family, interests) on hold so she and I could have some special time and then she left me/didn't call back/slept with my sleazy mate/got totally boozed and threw up in my car or couch, all on my dime. You know how that feels right?
That's how the one-sided "just cuddling" feels.[/QUOTE]


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

spotthedeaddog said:


> The other thing about "just cuddling".... I know that leads straight to the dreaded "friend-zone". so if my partner wants to do more of the "just cuddling" that's where she's trying to put me. We didn't "just cuddle" when we started exploring each other and become something more than friends....so friendzoning me is the first step in just using me and kicking me to the curb when she finds something more exciting. (be it a EA/PA or just folding envelopes for the local farmers' market)


Not necessarily. Maybe this has been your experience, but this doesn't apply to every woman who wants to cuddle.

One of my love languages is physical touch, and cuddling goes a LONG way towards meeting that need. I'm definitely not "friend zoning" the guy. If anything, it's a higher form of intimacy than just sex. And I'm not using cuddling to replace sex, it's additional... and if the cuddling leads to more sex, then I am all in favor of that!

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

spotthedeaddog said:


> Whereas my partner is someone who I find and originally found sexually attractive.
> 
> So therefore when I cuddle arousal is almost guaranteed, and indeed, I am concerned about health or stress on the very rare occasion that her touch does not arouse me.
> I am less aroused by others who aren't special to me, but if they are sexual beings, and we share intimate physical contact - then that too is sexually arousing.
> ...


Your total outlook here is more than a little warped / extreme.


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