# Why is it frowned upon to be the HD in a relationship?



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

It seems like the LD views the HD person as a nuciance or a burden, but why?

Is it just because they feel an obligation to provide?

Speaking just for the men here (I do truly feel sorry for the HD women here who are with a LD man, you must feel like you're on an island at times), but sex is our way to bond, to be close and to feel loved. I know we have a few detractors to that opinion around here, but generally speaking that is a respected stance for the majority of men not only here in this forum but from men in general, based on what I have gleaned from this forum and other reading material.

So why is it a burden to ask for what we want? I mean isn't the whole point of a marriage to get your needs and significant wants met through the marriage, especially those we can't get filled elsewhere?

I know if my wife wants a hug, wants to go for a drive, wants to talk about her day, or whatever else she feels the need to do on a regular basis, I comply with that request, and I do so the vast majority of the time because I want to. And how did I come to wanting to? Because I understood at the start of the relationship that that is something she needed or wanted significantly in a partner and I decided to try my best to give it to her.

Now if it was something I felt I couldn't do with a reasonable sense of interest, then I'd have left. I mean if it drove me nuts to listen to her talk about her day, I'm not signing up to listen about her day for the rest of my life. Screw that. But not only have I worked to understand her needs, I have worked to make them something I atleast somewhat enjoy. I want to hear about her day, I want to go for long drives, I want to spend time with her. This isn't how I was before, but I have come to appreciate this time together.

Now I don't expect the LD person to just like sex more, but often it seems from posts on this forum that they don't even try to. Furthermore, they seem to frown upon the HD person, like they are asking for something vulgar or wrong. 

So why is it so wrong to be the HD person? Is there something wrong with needing sex to bond closer with the other person? What gives the LD person the moral high ground to look down on the HD person? Why does society as a whole seem to view sexual issues as an unlegitimate reason to end a relationship (I'm not talking TAM posters, but society in general), like sex is just a fringe benefit of a marriage and not a key component of it?

Perhaps this I more of a vent than anything, but I'm just curious why HD people often feel like they are saddled with the blame when it comes to the sexual problems, like we should simply want it less, as if it were a switch. 

If a person were to stop buying flowers, stop spending time together, that's deemed a legitimate reason to cause issues in a marriage (and I agree, it is) but when it comes to sex, we are supposed to just drop our libido in half (or less in many cases) while the LD person often pputs little or no effort into trying to improve theirs. 

I agree with ScarletBegonias or Faithwife (I believe one of or maybe both of you said the following), that the more you think about sex, the more you want it. Yet the LD person often refuses to even have an open discussion about sex, and any commitments to change are either short lived or non-existent. Spending time trying to enahnce their libido is as frequent as a blue moon.

So why is it HD people are frowned upon? Why is society, or maybe just women (once again, apologies to those seemingly rare HD women, you are way to far and few between), hellbent on pointing the finger at the HD person as the problem when it comes to sexual incompatibility?


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

kingsfan said:


> It seems like the LD views the HD person as a nuciance or a burden, but why?
> 
> Is it just because they feel an obligation to provide?
> 
> ...


Would love to chat about your post but honestly what is the point when attitudes like the bolded are the basis of your thoughts?


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

The only time I frowned upon HD was when nothing else mattered. My wife just wanted sex, and plenty of it. I wanted something more than that, something less routine, and less on demands. At one time she had fantasies about our dream wedding, but circumstances forced us to have a shotgun wedding. So years passed, and I offered to fix a lost opportunity.

She didn't care, she just wanted sex and less of my complaints. To feel loved is one thing mate, and sure sex should be making one feel loved. But when it's demanded, obligatory, and when nothing else matters, one just can't help but feel used, and that one is nothing but a c--k and a wallet.

Ironic thing is that when we were together, we both felt unloved, both for different reasons. We had different love languages, we tried to compromise, but... meh, guess we just weren't compatible.


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

I see where LD people are frowned upon as well. At least thats how some posts on here come across sometimes. So its not just HD people.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Just an observation but I think people who aren't very into sex are frowned upon a lot.
Take comedy for example,most of the marital jokes in comedy are made at the expense of the person who doesn't want to have sex.


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## tulsy (Nov 30, 2012)

ScarletBegonias said:


> Just an observation but I think people who aren't very into sex are frowned upon a lot.
> Take comedy for example,most of the marital jokes in comedy are made at the expense of the person who doesn't want to have sex.


I guess OP means the opposite is true when you are IN the relationship. Comedy pokes fun of it from the outside looking in...the comedians themselves are probably venting about their LD spouses.


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## IsGirl3 (Nov 13, 2012)

as someone who used to be LD and now I'd say I'm medium drive, talking, hugging, listening, affection, does not really require a physical act. With sex, you are prevailed upon like a sport. if you don't like the sport, how can you be forced to like it? You can do it to please your spouse, but that doesn't mean you like it. I used to think of sex like ice cream. Just because most people love chocolate ice cream, and if I don't , what's wrong with that? why should I if I really and truly don't like it.

I used to stay in the shower longer because I knew when I got out, my H would be all over me. Or I would change clothes in the bathroom because I didn't want to be touched. Maybe it's frowned upon because it's the LD person who is being imposed upon and doing something he/she really doesn't want to do.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

IsGirl3 said:


> as someone who used to be LD and now I'd say I'm medium drive, talking, hugging, listening, affection, does not really require a physical act. With sex, you are prevailed upon like a sport. if you don't like the sport, how can you be forced to like it? You can do it to please your spouse, but that doesn't mean you like it. I used to think of sex like ice cream. Just because most people love chocolate ice cream, and if I don't , what's wrong with that? why should I if I really and truly don't like it.
> 
> I used to stay in the shower longer because I knew when I got out, my H would be all over me. Or I would change clothes in the bathroom because I didn't want to be touched. Maybe it's frowned upon because it's the LD person who is being imposed upon and doing something he/she really doesn't want to do.


I got to be the same way with my ex.I could have won trophies for speed dressing LOL hurrying to get those clothes on before he came in and mauled me.
Every hug to him was a sexual invite,every touch,every kiss...it always had to lead to sex in his mind.He never did anything sweet or loving just because he loved me.He did it for the end goal of getting laid.
He couldn't hug me without grabbing my butt and getting an erection.I couldn't reach out to him without it turning into sex or the expectation of sex.

I think I want SO all the time and every day bc he doesn't do that to me.When he hugs and kisses,it's because he loves being close to me,not bc he needs a piece.

It just feels different somehow.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

"Now if it was something I felt I couldn't do with a reasonable sense of interest, then I'd have left. I mean if it drove me nuts to listen to her talk about her day, I'm not signing up to listen about her day for the rest of my life."


So why on earth would you NOT marry her if you felt you couldn't handle listening to her talk about her day for the rest of your life, but you would marry her even though you can also clearly see there will be a sexual mismatch?

There's really no reason to have this type of debate at all if someone is in a position like you are where you see what is ahead of you yet you refuse to stop going forward.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

This is going to be one of those threads...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

It wasn't that way in my marriage. I squarely put the blame for our mismatch on the person who was objectively the furthest from the norm in our sexual practices - her, the middling desire and plain vanilla poster girl. For a long time she wondered what was wrong with her, why sex was so unimportant and why so many of its common practices were just so darned icky and disquieting.

This was certainly a mistake on my part. It didn't advance a solution, because no real solution exists. Placing the blame didn't compel her to change and it didn't help me become more satisfied. Eventually she decided that she was not in fact broken and wasn't going to be told that she was any longer. Good for her, because all the angst wasn't helping anyway.

I am now a reformed HD partner who places the blame for my own issues where they belong - on our mismatched relationship, not on either of the individuals. This mindset doesn't change anything except to release the anger at your spouse for simply being who she is (most of the time, anyway). It won't make you happier or more satisfied. If anything, it's fatalistic and defeating, forcing you to understand that this is probably your situation until the day you die. But it's also reality, and reality cannot be avoided no matter how hard you try.

So quit blaming each other, from either side. Stay in your relationship and try to change it if you must, but be prepared for the overwhelmingly likelihood of failure.  Or get out if you must and search for greener pastures. Don't let your partner make you feel the monster, and in turn don't do the same - because it will not, it cannot help your relationship in any way. 

So I will go home tonight not having had sex in three weeks (partially my own choice) and try to remember what I just wrote here today.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

I think sometimes the biggest issue is that the problem isn't always approached from your standpoint OP - that sex is your vehicle for feeling emotional connection, for "feeling" the relationship so to speak.

Instead, at times the focus is on a thought you mention:



> I mean isn't the whole point of a marriage to get your needs and significant wants met through the marriage, especially those we can't get filled elsewhere?


You are married and want to have sex, and therefore - your spouse should have sex with you regardless of anything else. But sex is fundamentally different than a conversation, or a walk, or flowers - sex is, at its basis the more intimate thing you can do with another human being. And some people - for whatever reason don't need or want that connection. I'm not sure, unfortunately, that's something they can just suddenly want. Just as you can't "turn it off" they can't turn it on?



> Now I don't expect the LD person to just like sex more, but often it seems from posts on this forum that they don't even try to.


Now I don't expect the HD person to just stop liking sex, but often it seems from posts on this forum they don't even try to. 
I mean, the thought goes both ways. There has to be a meeting of the minds - an agreement about how often is often enough that the HD doesn't feel majorly neglected, and the LD partner is feeling molested. 

But if the HD's mindset is - that's the point of marriage. I'm not really sure there's going to such an agreement. 

And that's not even touching other aspects of the HD/LD debate that sometimes it isn't the quantity of the sex, but the quality or the type. Where people are too "vanilla" as someone put it above. Which is a whole interrelated discussion. And doing with the "that's the point of marriage" mindset, it can morph into "she owes me."


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

You are one of my favs Kingsfan.

You know that I am deeply invested in this subject. I'll try to be objective. Because discussing this is healing, in a way. I'm HD, and going to divorce my LD spouse.

_It seems like the LD views the HD person as a nuciance or a burden, but why? Is it just because they feel an obligation to provide?_

Boundaries, yes this is how it will appear. In many areas of life. The moment you state you need more, you appear selfish. Think about that. Not how YOU feel, but how it appears to those listening to you. 
Never give up ownership of your self esteem. Never ask someone to be responsible for making you feel loved. This is the underlying "society" response. We are taught that it is TOO much to ask of a person. Especially for a man. 

Why?
Because the underlying responsibility is...
As a man, if your wife does not make you feel enough love, you will go somewhere else to get it. 
This is a red flag to most women. 
- In order to be vulnerable, we need assurances that it will be enough, that we will not be left alone, pregnant, or physically hurt. Men are stronger than us, and if we earn less money and have kids, the primal desires to protect the family over-rules emotions. Society says... you should be able to emotionally be happy all on your own. It's taken as weak for a man to claim he cannot be emotionally happy without sex. (society.. .not my opinion)

Because society does not paint men as emotional, or needing a connection. So a man that claims to need this emotional connection... must be needy! 
Society says that is a red flag. If he needs sex that much, you will never be able to satisfy him, and he is probably cheating on you already. Stay away. Not my opinion, though. 

It turned, didn't it? It went from something fun and enjoyable to a responsibility to make your spouse feel loved. 

Most women do not realize that men get an emotional connection from sex. Until later. And we don't always understand the male ego either.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

kingsfan said:


> It seems like the LD views the HD person as a nuciance or a burden, but why?
> 
> Is it just because they feel an obligation to provide?
> 
> ...


I want to offer a response to this from the ld point of view:

Why is there so much emphasis on the sexual act itself, to the point where I feel that every hug, kiss and playful squeeze has to lead to "going upstairs"? It takes me longer to get aroused, and I don't need as much as you, so why do I get the silent treatment and bad attitude when I'm not in the mood. And you always need me to be in the mood so you can feel desired. I can't help it if I'm not always on the same wavelength as you. If I just agree to it and try to be enthused but then you say "it just isn't as good".

Damned if I do and damned if I don't.

Disclaimer:

this is my perspective, I'm the bad guy in my relationship for being ld, he's the long suffering victim. Go figure.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

I mean case in point this:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/72299-do-you-ever-get-tired-anal-sex.html

Even if you "work on it" and have sex when you might not be that into it, then the discussion becomes about the kinds of sex acts you are doing. So - sometimes, an LD partner might feel like there's no way to win, so what's the sense of trying.


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## Just Wondering (Dec 20, 2011)

Kings fan,Hey always enjoy your time .But you come here today for advice and this is what I have to say today.Just leave it alone dude.Its like a Ruebix cube.Very hard to figure out. Find some peace in you life outside of your relationship.Don't put all your marbles in one basket.The best thing I have done with my wife about sex is leave her alone.Forget about it dude.What you once shared is gone. its over .Leave in the furture.I have stopped talking about sex,I stop trying to fix the problem.It was driving me crazy.We are roommates how.She has no use for the Peter .Its over dude.To her its not broken.So she can't fix it.She has never been happier since I stop wanting to make love to her.She hates sex,How she does not have to do it anymore.No more cuddling Kissing, I am not at peace with it eather my friend but I think I mite be able to live like this better than always trying to make love to her and being rejected.We are not sexually compatiable any longer.Remove the sex and you will see you can be good roommates.Thats all they really want.


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## Zatol Ugot? (Mar 5, 2012)

Just Wondering said:


> Kings fan,Hey always enjoy your time .But you come here today for advice and this is what I have to say today.Just leave it alone dude.Its like a Ruebix cube.Very hard to figure out. Find some peace in you life outside of your relationship.Don't put all your marbles in one basket.The best thing I have done with my wife about sex is leave her alone.Forget about it dude.What you once shared is gone. its over .Leave in the furture.I have stopped talking about sex,I stop trying to fix the problem.It was driving me crazy.We are roommates how.She has no use for the Peter .Its over dude.To her its not broken.So she can't fix it.She has never been happier since I stop wanting to make love to her.She hates sex,How she does not have to do it anymore.No more cuddling Kissing, I am not at peace with it eather my friend but I think I mite be able to live like this better than always trying to make love to her and being rejected.We are not sexually compatiable any longer.Remove the sex and you will see you can be good roommates.Thats all they really want.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

_I know if my wife wants a hug, wants to go for a drive, wants to talk about her day, or whatever else she feels the need to do on a regular basis, I comply with that request, and I do so the vast majority of the time because I want to. And how did I come to wanting to? Because I understood at the start of the relationship that that is something she needed or wanted significantly in a partner and I decided to try my best to give it to her._


Yes, you do your best to make sure your wife's love tank is filled.
Why does she not do the same?
What is her motivation?
She has boundaries. She would not stay with you if you didn't do these things for you, would she? And she has personally chosen love needs that she could easily get.... elsewhere.

You have chosen love tank credits that you can only get from her. Why are you putting all your eggs in a basket that she is holding? 

If she learned other ways of getting her love tank filled, as you say, then can you? This is the reasoning behind the look down your noses attitude. I don't mean this as just not having sex... I mean considering that there are other ways to feel loved and appreciated. If you are willing to look at them that way. That leaves sex as what it used to be.... fun and enjoyable. And more likely to happen, more often.

If you are giving more than you are receiving, and it is making you feel LESS about yourself, then it might be worth considering your feelings about sex. (not giving up on sex)

It's okay to feel that you need sex to be emotionally connected. If you do, then your emotional connection should match the amount of sex you are getting. You got it backwards. You don't ask for more, you reduce your emotional connection. Boundaries.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

In any marriage and relationship, you are no longer your own and you are to give of yourself to make sure their needs are taken care of. Some require physicality and frequent sex while others like the friendship, closeness and cuddling aspect. Either one should never deny the other their needs. When one spouse starts denying their other halves needs, they shouldn't be in that relationship because that's being selfish and its what they want.

Little to no sex in marriages and relationships leaves the HD spouse sexually starved, anger builds, and the closeness starts to disappear and you wind up being more friend and room mates. Would you like to marry a friend and room mate? Of course not!!

A sexual middle ground must be met and not what the LD spouse wants and nuts to the HD spouse. Again, that's selfish and not even meeting half way. In that situation, that those individuals should move on and find someone similar to themselves and not put HD spouses through sexual starvation.....it's not about you anymore, its what's best for your other half and the marriage and relationship.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

_So why is it HD people are frowned upon? Why is society, or maybe just women (once again, apologies to those seemingly rare HD women, you are way to far and few between), hellbent on pointing the finger at the HD person as the problem when it comes to sexual incompatibility?_

Think about women and sex in general. We teach our young girls to be careful, safe, wary of men. Because if a man wanted to... he could overpower a woman and simply TAKE it. 

We are taught that it is something you carefully choose to GIVE to someone. And there are consequences. 

So no, there is little sympathy for someone who wants more than they are given. 

And the underlying message behind being hellbent on pointing the finger at the HD spouse ....
You can't make anyone give what they cannot or won't give.
I dont' know a single person who doesn't bristle at the thought of being told to change. 
we all just want to be accepted the way we are. In the end.


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## Zatol Ugot? (Mar 5, 2012)

King,
I get what you are saying and I think I know where you are coming from. My wife and I have had this discussion on several occasions including very recently. I am the higher drive and she has a lower drive. Her drive is not dead and mine is not through the roof, yet we are still mismatched and there is tension when it comes to sex and frequency. For the longest time in our marriage (been married 24 years), I believe that her view of sex was kind of like a fringe benefit. It was icing on the cake of marriage. It was nice to have and it felt good when we did it, but there was no need to put a high priority on it. If it happened, great. If not, well too bad. Other things get in the way. She looked at sex as something that was not = to love. It was something fun to do but it was not essential. I also got the "why can't you just love me instead of wanting sex all the time?" question. Of course, I didn't think I wanted sex *all* the time but obviously more than she did. I didn't really know how to answer her either. I just do want sex...why don't you? 

However, a lot of reading and research and visiting forums (including TAM) has made me realize something that I have felt all along but did not know how to express to my wife. For most men, sex is a *valid* (can't stress that word enough) and legitimate expression of love and is equal to the romantic view of love in every sense. Marital love the way my wife viewed it was all about wistful looks, romantic dinners, caressing each others' cheeks while we looked longingly in each others eyes saying "I love you" 50 times a day and falling asleep in each others arms. When this dreamy, puppy-eyed view of love is placed next to the sexual side of marriage, _well obviously_ sex is exposed as a crude, base and ignoble instinct (he said sarcastically). The physical act of sex is not seen to be a valid expression of love. It is a second or even a third class emotion/action/thought that is tolerated, not prioritized and seen as a crucial and integral part of a marriage. 

Does that mean that my wife expected to never have sex? No. She knew that even though her drive was not as high as mine, sex was something that needed to occur in our marriage. But she viewed it more like scratching an itch or being fed when hungry. And to be honest, I held a similar view for a long time feeling that my sex drive was a burden that I was forcing on my wife. However, I knew that something was wrong with that view, I was just too ignorant of my own emotions to realize it. I was constantly trying to get her to "scratch my itch". And at some point, she finally said "why are you always so damn itchy?"
But it's not just a physical want that needs soothing. It goes way beyond that. It is that emotional and loving connection that the man seeks with his wife (like Kingsfan, talking to the HD men with LD spouses, not those in the reverse situation). Sex has taken on a second rate status compared to romantic love. And for most men, that is sad.

I also agree that society is not helping much. How can sex be seen as a valid expression of love and affection when it is so casual today? Sex does not equal commitment. Sex is just fun and you should do it with as many people as you can as often as you can just for your own selfish pleasure. What's the harm in having a one night stand? There's nothing wrong with the hookup culture that exists on college campuses today. Why even bother getting into a relationship with someone when you can just get together for an hour or two and bang out a couple of quick orgasms and then go your separate ways? Friends with benefits, sure! I'm using you and you're using me. It's all good. Right?...Right? No. 

This type of culture leads to the denigration and devaluation of what it means to have a sexual relationship within the context of a long term, loving relationship, especially marriage. There is no love in this type of culture. It's all about me, mine and what pleasure I can get. 
So to me, it's no wonder that when couples get married today, sex has a difficult time transitioning into that wonderful, magical connection that most men wish they had with their wives. It becomes a burden. A problem to be dealt with. A strain on the marriage instead of a loving expression of mutual affection and desire.

Unfortunately, I don't have any magic bullet answers. Education, communication and a willingness to recognize the validity of each others' emotions and desires will be crucial to making things work.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

Interesting thing is, I change and adapt quickly and always have but my wife doesn't. For her its painful, difficult and a slow process. Everyone is different I guess.


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## Zatol Ugot? (Mar 5, 2012)

deejov said:


> _
> we all just want to be accepted the way we are. In the end._


_

Agreed. And the problem comes in when the way that I am conflicts with the way you are. Somewhere, something has to give and the battles occur in determining who is going to give what and at what cost._


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

deejov said:


> _So why is it HD people are frowned upon? Why is society, or maybe just women (once again, apologies to those seemingly rare HD women, you are way to far and few between), hellbent on pointing the finger at the HD person as the problem when it comes to sexual incompatibility?_
> 
> Think about women and sex in general. We teach our young girls to be careful, safe, wary of men. Because if a man wanted to... he could overpower a woman and simply TAKE it.
> 
> ...


I totally agree.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LadyOfTheLake (Feb 25, 2013)

deejov said:


> _So why is it HD people are frowned upon? Why is society, or maybe just women (once again, apologies to those seemingly rare HD women, you are way to far and few between), hellbent on pointing the finger at the HD person as the problem when it comes to sexual incompatibility?_
> 
> *Think about women and sex in general. We teach our young girls to be careful, safe, wary of men. Because if a man wanted to... he could overpower a woman and simply TAKE it. *
> 
> ...



:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

Sing it sister!!!!!!


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Zatol said: "How can sex be seen as a valid expression of love and affection when it is so casual today? Sex does not equal commitment. Sex is just fun and you should do it with as many people as you can as often as you can just for your own selfish pleasure. What's the harm in having a one night stand? There's nothing wrong with the hookup culture that exists on college campuses today. Why even bother getting into a relationship with someone when you can just get together for an hour or two and bang out a couple of quick orgasms and then go your separate ways? Friends with benefits, sure! I'm using you and you're using me. It's all good. Right?...Right? No. 

This type of culture leads to the denigration and devaluation of what it means to have a sexual relationship within the context of a long term, loving relationship, especially marriage. There is no love in this type of culture. It's all about me, mine and what pleasure I can get. 
So to me, it's no wonder that when couples get married today, sex has a difficult time transitioning into that wonderful, magical connection that most men wish they had with their wives. It becomes a burden. A problem to be dealt with. A strain on the marriage instead of a loving expression of mutual affection and desire." (end quote)


I think the above is short sited. Not everyone who is free and easy with their sexuality sees it like "who cares about love?" or "why do I need a relationship?"

Most sexually self-aware people totally understand the difference between casual sex and committed sex, and very few of those people ever choose to have casual sex for the rest of their lives and forego a committed relationship.

I don't think we should try to paint it like those who are wanting to explore sex for its own sake are tainting the whole pool of sexually healthy people. It just doesn't work that way. Basically, you just sound like you are trying to place shame or blame on others' sexuality.

Either you get to decide what you want to do with your body or you don't, right? Why go off judging others who are deciding what to do with their own bodies, when what you are really looking at is only your OWN marriage situation? How does your marriage situation have anything to do with the sexual escapades of others?

Anything that is happening within one marriage has ONLY to do with those two spouses.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Kingsfan, I'm really sorry for your situation. You sound like a very loving and self-sacrificing man, and I wish you had a woman who was the same way. Your patience is both honorable, and....confusing, frankly.

Between my husband and I, I'm the lower drive but I don't consider my sexual drive to be low. When I was a virgin, I didn't understand why a guy would breakup with me over nothing but sex. I knew sex was important to build intimacy, but I didn't believe that it was essential to a dating relationship. And it wasn't until I was with a man who didn't place major value on sex when dating that I was actually open to having sex...when I felt that he valued me as a person more than just my vagina, I felt safe giving him what the other guys weren't willing to stick around for. And man oh man, when I finally felt valued as a woman for who I was and understood, did my sexual desires surface for the first time in my life. And ya know, it totally fits with my number one emotional need: Admiration. Feeling valued is a part of that, and it awoke sexual urges I'd never had before. 

So I can understand where the LD people are coming from: it really must be difficult to feel like every moment of intimacy is only being endured by the HD spouse because they want sex. I hated feeling like my boyfriends only dated me to have a great time. But it wasn't until I met my husband that I was able to understand how important sex is in a relationship. Once we started having sex, I, literally, could not stop. Nothing compared to that kind of bond, that kind of intimacy. All the cuddling, all the affirmation, all the affection couldn't replace sex. 

And that's also where I understand the HD part. I know that my husband doesn't cuddle with me and play with my hair _just_ so he can get in my pants. I know that he wants that, I know that he expects to have his needs met since he meets mine, but sex isn't the reason he shows me affection. He loves me, so he meets my needs. That, I think, is the disconnect between HD and LD people much of the time; for the HD spouse, meeting their spouses needs isn't about the sex as much as it's about putting the other person first...even if the need being met isn't something they, themselves, desire. Whereas for the LD spouse, knowing that sex is very important to their HD spouse, it seems like it could be incredibly difficult to separate sex from everything that the HD spouse does. 

Which, imo, is why LD people really shouldn't marry HD people. It seems like it would take a massive amount of work for each person to genuinely understand the other and accept how they are. The resentment just doesn't seem worth it. So, while I think your patience is honorable because you love your wife, I also find it confusing that you would willingly stay in a relationship where you're not satisfied. You've said before that the other areas of your relationship are close to perfect, and that that's why you stay...but I have to be honest...if I had to choose between a man who was more naturally romantic and didn't have to work to meet my need for admiration, but wasn't anywhere near to as passionate as my husband, I would choose my husband every time. I'd rather take the other issues and have a fantastic and satisfying sex life than have a guy who met my other needs more naturally. 

I really feel for you.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

LadyOfTheLake said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:
> 
> Sing it sister!!!!!!


LOTL,
I am replying objectively, not necessarily how I feel personally about all of this. Just... talking about society views things. The truth. Not completely my truth, but I've come to understand and emphathasize \ maybe see how it looks from the other side.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Another general point I'd like to make in this discussion, is that in many cases, the LD spouse is actually intimacy avoidant. In people who are avoidant in that way, intimacy can actually be experienced as emotionally painful or anxiety producing.

So if HD people can really understand this, maybe it can help.

In some of these cases, your LD spouse actually experiences anxiety and emotional pain FROM the act of being close and intimate...not necessarily having to do with the sex itself.

When you really understand this, it becomes easier to understand some of the things they say about "why" they don't see sex as important.

If someone is intimacy avoidant, they will not be able to experience the good feelings from intimacy the way you can...so phrases like "who doesn't like sex, it feels good, that is weird" are meaningless to them because the pleasure of sex is drowned out by the displeasure of fear, emotional pain, or anxiety.


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## livelaughlovenow (Apr 23, 2012)

I will chime in, I used to be massively LD, what started as just being exhausted from kids, and then the requests turned into pressure and the pressure builds resentment and like other person said, one hug or kiss cannot simply be that, it was always a way in... felt pressured. Once I took a step back, did some serious reading, soul searching and refocused on my marriage I realized I needed to compromise in order for my husband to be happy in our marriage and started finding ways to re-engage. Our kids were not as demanding and we had disconnected by that point on so many levels. Relationships change. But at the same time I felt like if I wasn't into it (feeling in the mood) and just gave to him to satisfy him (he did NOT appreciate that) like others have said (duty sex) is how it felt, but I was trying. I eventually got to a point where I felt "damned if i did and damned if I didn't) again this was all before our reconnect. We started having some serious discussions, things we never talked about before marriage, fantasy, desires, emotional connections, memories, etc and reconnected emotionally first. Like you said men need sex to feel loved, we need all sorts of other things to want sex. SO being LD makes it ultra challenging for us to fix our end when by the time one winds up in an LD/HD situation if you really examine the relationship both people have disengaged on other levels by that point and it takes some serious work to fix because then you have more than one issue happening. I have read many articles that this is a common problem in marriages, because the inital feelings of euphoria/lust wear off... and couples must find ways to rekindle it on an ongoing basis throughout the entire marriage and counter the effects of stress, complacency, kids and financial things (basically life in general). Which is why many people wind up having affairs, because it's all new, no expectations etc. 
Irregardless if BOTH partners are willing to forgive some things, compromise and meet in the middle and start over than things will be better... for instance through our discussions I discovered every other relationship my husband had been in ended for his demanding sexual ways (so it wasn't just me) and I am a very sexual person, I just let other things take priority instead of my marriage. We talked, re-engaged and now he has no complaints in that department... I've asked. Now I am the one who feels that I gave more to this, and that he could be more responsive to my emotional tank needs... 
IN our reading and talking we found an awesome site that sums up the differences without reading the entire his needs, her needs book (His Needs-Her Needs-Our Needs) and it really opened both of our eyes to things we could both improve on. For instance he never realize how important me telling him things was, he would always say "I dont' care about your friends" so I wouldn't tell him things... it sucked, but now he realizes regardless of whether he cares, it's an important need for me to be "listened" to when I need to vent or share something. I kind of rambled, but I would be more than happy to elaborate more. I never looked down on him, I don't look down on those who are HD... at all... I just can relate more and offer more advice to those struggling with LD, because it can be fixed and a marriage with HD/LD can come to a compromise in the middle that meets the needs of both, but it does require compromise from both... for instance my husband would love to have sex daily, that isn't happening, but he is much happier with 2-3 times a week instead of the once a month his bantering and badgering and my disengagement had pushed us to.


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## KFS (Nov 4, 2012)

I would urge all couples seriously considering marriage to talk frankly about what exactly they want in terms of a sexual relationship BEFORE the wedding. I think so much heartache could be avoided/minimized if people were honest with each other; if you are HD and your SO tells you "sex is no big deal, I can take it or leave it" alarm bells should start ringing. A HD/LD relationship can work but it takes understanding, compromise, and generosity. Neither HD or LDs should be made to feel the "heavy" as neither are wrong but it is an important issue in a relationship and must be confronted openly (and patiently, too, as it is very often an ongoing issue).


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

If LD spouses actually met their HD spouses half way, I doubt there would be posts from many HD spouses complaining how their LD spouses don't even meet them half way.

If LD spouses actually wanted to take care of their HD spouses instead of only what they want, hardly any posts here.

Most HD spouses would like sex every day, but would compromise sex down to once every second day, 50 / 50, but we don't even get that.

It's the LD spouses way (man or woman) and the HD has to just always get the bad end of the stick.

HD spouses have read the books, listened more, more romance, you name it just to get that 50 / 50 compromise, but the LD spouse still won't even do that. Yet, it still must be the HD spouses fault. Really?!

Lots of talking, nothing gets done.

I think in all fairness, a 50 / 50 sexual middle ground is maintained or the spouse that isn't willing to compromise and stick to it should leave the relationship.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

The title of this thread is "why is it frowned upon to be the HD in the relationship", and then it goes on to frown upon those who are the LD in the relationship.

Guys, face it...everyone thinks it is the OTHER PERSON'S fault.

Yet, YOU PICKED that other person.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> The title of this thread is "why is it frowned upon to be the HD in the relationship", and then it goes on to frown upon those who are the LD in the relationship.
> 
> Guys, face it...everyone thinks it is the OTHER PERSON'S fault.
> 
> Yet, YOU PICKED that other person.


LD's are thought of to be "more responsible", HD's are thought of to not manage their time right, when they know full and well it doesn't take a long contrived sequence of events to occur, a couple could experience closeness in 5-10 minutes top and carry it for the next couple of days.

And HD's are NOT BLAMING LD's unless they were "baited and switched", it happens. HD's have a problem that LD's feel they should not even compromise a small amount where HD's HAVE to compromise due to the nature of the situation.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

treyvion...you don't need to school me. I know what I am reading. HD's blame LD's and LD's blame HD's. Your post was a clear example of such.

My point?

YOU PICKED THEM.

Whichever side you are on and whoever you are blaming, YOU PICKED THEM.

So....why are you still picking them, yet saying it is their fault?

(not you specifically....the general "you", on EITHER side, HD or LD)


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> treyvion...you don't need to school me. I know what I am reading. HD's blame LD's and LD's blame HD's. Your post was a clear example of such.
> 
> My point?
> 
> ...


I guess put in that context you are exactly right.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> YOU PICKED THEM.
> 
> Whichever side you are on and whoever you are blaming, YOU PICKED THEM.
> 
> ...


Most people don't like to admit poor judgement when choosing their spouse if it's a case of "well I thought the sex would change and improve after we got married."

also,it could be a case of being in sync at one point then losing that later.which I think is when the blame game happens.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> Most people don't like to admit poor judgement when choosing their spouse if it's a case of "well I thought the sex would change and improve after we got married."
> 
> also,it could be a case of being in sync at one point then losing that later.which I think is when the blame game happens.


What if they where "Christians" and chose to forgo sex before marriage? How could you know?


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

treyvion said:


> What if they where "Christians" and chose to forgo sex before marriage? How could you know?


The only way I'd venture to say you could get an idea is just by a lot of communication.You can get a feel for where people stand if you talk to them enough.
The questions SHOULD be asked before the vows are taken.Expectations should be put on the table and addressed.even if you're not establishing a sexual relationship ahead of marriage it needs to be discussed in detail.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

And that's a common theme in other posts as well, worse that when the LD person in a relationship is looking for help and advice, they'll get dogged with negative comments.

I mean ...



> If LD spouses actually wanted to take care of their HD spouses instead of only what they want


What does someone respond to that? 

That because you feel -your- spouse doesn't care, obviously -all- LD spouses must obviously not care about their spouse. That's a heavy amount of baggage for everyone else to carry.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

"I was young and naïve" 

"I just thought the sex would work itself out"

"We were Christians and didn't have sex before marriage, so how would I know better"

"She/he just seemed shy so I thought with time, it would change"

"I knew she/he had childhood issues but I never thought they would eventually cause sexual dysfunction"

All of the above are just different ways of saying "I picked him/her, but I still want to pretend there was some reason I was duped".


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

ScarletBegonias said:


> The only way I'd venture to say you could get an idea is just by a lot of communication.You can get a feel for where people stand if you talk to them enough.
> The questions SHOULD be asked before the vows are taken.Expectations should be put on the table and addressed.even if you're not establishing a sexual relationship ahead of marriage it needs to be discussed in detail.


That's true, but it suffers from the famous Rumsfeldian "unknown unknowns". Sexually inexperienced people often don't know what what they like or dislike, don't know what's available, and don't even know what questions to ask. 

Until you've had conflict with someone else over sex, it might not even occur to you that this can be a problem in a marriage. I know for sure that's what happened with the person who sleeps next to me most nights.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Cletus said:


> That's true, but it suffers from the famous Rumsfeldian "unknown unknowns". Sexually inexperienced people often don't know what what they like or dislike, don't know what's available, and don't even know what questions to ask.
> 
> Until you've had conflict with someone else over sex, it might not even occur to you that this can be a problem in a marriage. I know for sure that's what happened with the person who sleeps next to me most nights.


well there is that risk of course.I would hope people who are inexperienced in these things would use the ton of resources out there for understanding marital issues that could arise.It is ultimately an individual's responsibility to educate themselves on these matters.

To enter marriage without educating yourself on as many potential problems and complications as possible is setting yourself up for likely failure. Failure on many things whether it's conflict over sex or other things like money.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Cletus said:


> Until you've had conflict with someone else over sex, it might not even occur to you that this can be a problem in a marriage. I know for sure that's what happened with the person who sleeps next to me most nights.


This is probably true I just can't wrap my mind around someone being that clueless.Unless the person lives in a bubble prior to marriage,they'd HAVE to know the key things people complain about in marriage.It's all over the place.Every where you look there's discussion about it.Sex,money,kids,etc.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> "I was young and naïve"
> 
> "I just thought the sex would work itself out"
> 
> ...


Sometimes they were duped. It was true baited and switched, in that a dousing of love and affection and time was used to "hook" the individual, and after snared it was no longer necessary. The person may not have planned it like this, it is just the results of the underlying motives and how they look in action.

So yes at first they "wanted" you, so they are happy to bend over backwards, satiate and oversatiate. After snared, theres no reason to do this because the objective has been accomplished.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

ScarletBegonias said:


> well there is that risk of course.I would hope people who are inexperienced in these things would use the ton of resources out there for understanding marital issues that could arise.It is ultimately an individual's responsibility to educate themselves on these matters.
> 
> To enter marriage without educating yourself on as many potential problems and complications as possible is setting yourself up for likely failure. Failure on many things whether it's conflict over sex or other things like money.


We were married in the Catholic church lo these many years ago. Before they allowed it, you had to take a multi-week course with a mentor couple. They covered family conflict, money, personality types (complete with Meyers-Briggs inventory and a session with a counselor).

What didn't they talk about? Sex.

We were 21 and 22. She had no sexual experience, I had one long term partner with whom everything had worked out just fine with no issues whatsoever. We well and truly just didn't know. That's why I made sure that my children DID know.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Cletus said:


> We were married in the Catholic church lo these many years ago. Before they allowed it, you had to take a multi-week course with a mentor couple. They covered family conflict, money, personality types (complete with Meyers-Briggs inventory and a session with a counselor).
> 
> What didn't they talk about? Sex.
> 
> We were 21 and 22. She had no sexual experience, I had one long term partner with whom everything had worked out just fine with no issues whatsoever. We well and truly just didn't know. That's why I made sure that my children DID know.


ugh.that sucks.One of the biggest sources of conflict between married people and the church doesn't address it in this wonderful premarital counseling program they require.

I'm all for supporting those who choose to wait but damn,the church or whoever is guiding these people needs to recognize SEX IS IMPORTANT!


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

I'm Catholic. I asked a progressive nun about this at an adult Catholic course. The answer? Divorce is not discussed either. It is assumed you will work out your issues, and lack of sex in a marriage is not really viewed as a reason for divorce. If you are having problems, then go talk to one of the priests. (who aren't married... and are celibate)... I'm sure they can help you. LOL


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Cletus said:


> That's true, but it suffers from the famous Rumsfeldian "unknown unknowns". Sexually inexperienced people often don't know what what they like or dislike, don't know what's available, and don't even know what questions to ask.


Sexually inexperienced people know if they like to masterbate... if they love and NEED pleasure, I know I sure did... I didn't have intercourse till I was 22 -on our wedding night ... but I've been "doin' myself" since I was like 11, if something brushed up against me in the middle of the night, it was ON... ... even though ..in my repressed stricken mind...felt guilty and ashamed about it.... then me & the husband NEVER talked about this at all....which was really asinine of us. 

Sex talk, masterbation talk should never be taboo....what I have learned from our past.

I think for those who want to wait till marriage....it IS taking a risk...a pure blind one...if they have not talked deeply, shared...some fantasy talk....also some hands on....for a man to KNOW....she can orgasm, she LOVES & craves it.... and is emotionally & physically psyched to go all the way... 

If this is missing in the woman....something is terribly amiss...


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Sexually inexperienced people know if they like to masterbate... if they love and NEED pleasure, I know I sure did...


The question you should ask before putting a ring on a finger is..

"Do you masturbate with this hand or the other?"

Any answer other than "this" or "the other" should be a big warning sign.

Before we were married, we did once get hot and heavy with our clothes on. One dry hump and her orgasm later, it was pretty clear she wasn't frigid. That turns out to not be enough of an answer.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I used the "I was so young and didn't get it" excuse for many years too, while I tried to blame our marital problems on my ex-h.

When the day comes when you stop saying "why won't they change" and start asking "why did I pick them and why am I still picking them?", THEN you can actually finally make some sense out of your situation.

- - - - - - 

And we have kingsfan, who started this thread, who isn't married to his LD fiance.......who can see things for what they are yet he is still moving forward...the train keeps getting closer but he just keeps saying "why, why won't she change?"

(not meaning to pick on you kingsfan...just that you are a perfect example and it is your thread)


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> I used the "I was so young and didn't get it" excuse for many years too, while I tried to blame our marital problems on my ex-h.


It's not an excuse, it's an explanation. I choose to still be in my marriage for many reasons having nothing to do with sex, and I originally came here in the hope of finding ways to improve my situation rather than simply accept it as a lost cause.

Nor do I blame my marital sexual problems on my wife. They are a fault of our relationship. 

If choosing to stay in a sexually unsatisfying marriage is a sign of personal weakness, then so is working through issues of money, addiction, or a thousand other personality shortcomings and conflicts that plague married couples. Talking about them with others, and yes, sometimes whining about your lot in life is also part of the process of healing, understanding, and possibly moving on in your life.

You've made this statement so many times in the past that it's become sort of your calling card. Rather than misunderstand, may I ask you to expand on what you're implying beyond the obvious statement of fact? Do you consider it a character flaw to remain in a sexually unsatisfying marriage? Or one to complain about it or ask for advice? What are you trying to accomplish by repeating it so often? And yes, these are real questions, not attacks or mockery. 

For the record, I'm in 100% agreement with you on kingsfan. If you can see the headlight coming at you, stay the hell out of the tunnel.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

Actually, Cletus - other options for your this hand or that question include:

- Both
- It depends.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

"Do you consider it a character flaw to remain in a sexually unsatisfying marriage?"


Nope. But Cletus...you have made it clear to me that you have no intention of really understanding me or what I am saying. You have directly insulted me several times, and meanwhile, you seem to be internalizing the general things I say (such as the above quote). So how is it that you think I would really be able to explain to you what I am getting at? You think I'm insulting you, so how can you "hear" me? Whereas, you really are insulting me, so why would I want to explain to you?

No hard feelings, I'm just not seeing your point of questioning me about it when it appears you don't want to understand it.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> "Do you consider it a character flaw to remain in a sexually unsatisfying marriage?"
> 
> 
> Nope. But Cletus...you have made it clear to me that you have no intention of really understanding me or what I am saying.


Well, damned if I do and damned if I don't. Make an assumption, get my ass handed to me. Ask a question instead of assuming, get stonewalled. Try to rectify the mistake I made just yesterday by not making it today, and look what happens.

I specifically ask a question to gain understanding of your point and you come back with I have "no intentions of really understanding". 

Disingenuous much?



> You have directly insulted me several times, and meanwhile, you seem to be internalizing the general things I say (such as the above quote). So how is it that you think I would really be able to explain to you what I am getting at? You think I'm insulting you, so how can you "hear" me? Whereas, you really are insulting me, so why would I want to explain to you?
> 
> No hard feelings, I'm just not seeing your point of questioning me about it when it appears you don't want to understand it.



I never insulted you, at least not by my standards as I never attempted to insult you. I didn't understand that you don't care for a little rough and tumble back and forth, which is sort of my favorite style. You don't like my approach and I don't understand yours, and you're taking it personally.

So be it. Go on assuming that your meaning is at all times clear and concise to others of dissimilar backgrounds and worldviews, and I won't bother to ask for deeper meaning again.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

You call THAT "getting your ass handed to you"? Really? See why I don't think you have any intention of understanding me? Not that I care, either way.

I never assumed my meaning was anything. I'm just posting what I post.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Why kingsfan is one of my favs:
This is his 2nd go around with a similar problem. (and maybe marraige shy now)
He openly shares what is going on
He seems like he really does truly just want to have that truly fulfulling relationship
He is willing to be human and vent like he did here.

Quite often, there is mention of "you must fix this relationship, own what you did, or it will follow you to your next one".

I honestly read from Kingsfan that is not the case, he has a preference for women who are like most other women.
And I have a feeling that if he had put a ring on it... things might have been different. That never seems to come up. That's my take on the underlying issue here. Not kingsfan himself, but the not spoken lack of comittment, and maybe the undertone that she thinks he is holding back. 

Whether it's logical or not.... without a ring, some people are just not going to go all in.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

ScarletBegonias said:


> The only way I'd venture to say you could get an idea is just by a lot of communication.You can get a feel for where people stand if you talk to them enough.
> The questions SHOULD be asked before the vows are taken.Expectations should be put on the table and addressed.even if you're not establishing a sexual relationship ahead of marriage it needs to be discussed in detail.


*nod* Yup. 

My husband and I had planned on waiting til marriage, and we talked a lot about sex and its importance in marriage. Turned out, the conversations weren't entirely necessary because we didn't wait, and we found out that we were very sexually compatible. But yes, for those who are waiting, it is vital to discuss things beforehand and to make each of their opinions very clear.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

ScarletBegonias said:


> ugh.that sucks.One of the biggest sources of conflict between married people and the church doesn't address it in this wonderful premarital counseling program they require.
> 
> I'm all for supporting those who choose to wait but damn,the church or whoever is guiding these people needs to recognize SEX IS IMPORTANT!


This is my biggest beef with the church. There was much, much more negative regarding sex than positive, and absolutely NO practical advice whatsoever. Even in premarital counseling there was hardly anything...just, "Have fun. As long as you agree on things, there's no issue." 

....Okay....And what if we don't agree? But, of course, that's too personal.  I'm going to make sure my children understand how important sex is in a relationship, how natural sexual desires are, etc.

Anyway, threadjack over. Sorry about that.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Cletus said:


> The question you should ask before putting a ring on a finger is..
> 
> "Do you masturbate with this hand or the other?"
> 
> ...


I never masturbated until after marriage, and I have strong sexual urges. Heck, I haven't masturbated in months. Masturbation, alone, isn't a sign that a woman will be a prude.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> I never masturbated until after marriage, and I have strong sexual urges. Heck, I haven't masturbated in months. Masturbation, alone, isn't a sign that a woman will be a prude.


No, but I'll take the risk on the correlation being high enough to have predictive value.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Cletus said:


> The question you should ask before putting a ring on a finger is..
> 
> "Do you masturbate with this hand or the other?"
> 
> ...


If you could live your life over again, get your PRE marital days back... tell me, from all you have learned, *what advice do YOU have for your sons..to spare them? * 

Our oldest plans on waiting till marriage for sex... he is a Worship Leader and that's how he believes...I am not going to change him, he is as stubborn as I am about stuff... 

So this issue is important to me as well as I sure as hell don't want him to marry a Low driving repressed Prude....I've read too many stories on this site to know what a Prison that would be... I want my sons to all be happily sexually... it affects a man's entire life. 



> *Created2Write said*: I never masturbated until after marriage, and I have strong sexual urges. Heck, I haven't masturbated in months. Masturbation, alone, isn't a sign that a woman will be a prude.


 You know what is funny ... I actually thought of YOU when I was writing that cause I know you are one of the exceptions...I've seen a few on here...... but the vast majority of women who never did..they are low drive....not on the radar....I've read countless stories -heartbreaking...

I guess absolutely nothing makes sense really.. .cause the wild chick in bed can also loose it after marriage... is there really any test at all then...seems NOT. 

For me, I think I would have exploded if I didn't masterbate ...I simply had to DO that -just like a GUY... in this way, I guess I was always high drive... but look at me , I was repressed for 19 yrs married, didn't do Bj's. pushed him away from oral..... .so the mind is pretty crazy I suppose... I am surely out of the normal box as well in this way... Repression did it's # on me but it couldn't take away the need for that penetrating pleasure...


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

I am a God fearing Christian man but not a goodie goodie if you know what I mean. My faith has nothing to do with my HD.

My wifee is neutral on this because her dad is an atheist and her mom believes, so basically she doesn't believe. Yet she is LD.

I have been told to stop taking my natural supplements or take some meds to lower my sex drive. Yet my LD wifee doesn't have to change or compromise.

Being in a marriage means you actually love your spouse and will do what it takes to meet their needs because you love them instead of little to no sex and nuts to you.

I have read so many posts on TAM about LD men and women driving their HD spouses crazy and is making them miserable, its not funny.

The HD spouses are told they are the problem, so they must read many books, more cards, flowers, never beg or initiative for sex much, listening, talking, surprise dinners, you name it, yet I don't see LD spouses doing the same trying to spice up and meet their sexual needs at least half way......nope. LD doesn't change again.

If LD spouses did the 50 / 50 sexual middle grounds and stuck to it, no issues with me and most on TAM.

What everyone must remember, LD's are right, don't have to even meet their HD spouses half way and its all the HD spouses fault. Know this, and you'll be just fine. And you don't need sex in a marriage or relationship either.........sure.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> If you could live your life over again, get your PRE marital days back... tell me, from all you have learned, *what advice do YOU have for your sons..to spare them? *


My advice would be this:

Have sex before marriage. Not casually, but about the same time you're considering putting a ring on her finger. If you're committed enough to get engaged, you're committed enough to have sex.

I understand that this is not acceptable for some. If not, then you have to have a probably very uncomfortable conversation (which you should do even if you're intimate). You have to ask you prospective partner if they're into sex in general. "Are you just busting at the seams every time I hold you in my arms, and only your morals keep you from ripping off my pants?" 

If the answer is sex seems like a nice perk, and you're sweet for asking, but I just don't get that way - that's a problem. Since good Christian girls might not answer directly or honestly, you have to make sure you trust the answer. 

You can't ask a virgin what they like and don't like about partnered sex, 'cause they just don't know. Not knowing isn't a crime, so get a copy of something like "The Guide to Getting it On" and have both parties read it from cover to cover. Mark up any questions in the book. Highlight the things you would consider doing and those that are out of bounds. Compare notes and have a thrilling, giggly good time of it.

Then discuss, at embarrassing length, though at this point most guys are going to be so aroused just from the conversation that they might have trouble listening carefully and diligently. Ask her what her expectation is on married sex - is it expected to be a joy, a duty, or a cross to bear? Is she in general the curious sort who likes new experiences, or the sort that's afraid of too much change or excitement?

Then, most importantly of all, listen to your gut and the answers you get. Small differences are negotiable, but don't gloss over the big things, like expecting compromise and huge differences in interest or desire or expected frequency. As unromantic as it sounds, treat the entire episode like it were an SAT for your partner. No man wants to feel like the pervert who dumped his girlfriend for her sexual attitudes even before marriage, but he'll feel even worse later on divorcing her over it.

Our pre-marriage counselor gave us a personality inventory and then told us things about our future that were spot on given our predilections, and that I remember and encounter still to this day. I wish the psychology world had a similar test for sexual compatibility, but I've never heard of it.

Oh, and send him here to read for himself what issues people have when they don't share each other's views on sex. You don't have to admit to your user name 

Anyway, that's what I would do.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Cletus said:


> My advice would be this:
> 
> Have sex before marriage. Not casually, but about the same time you're considering putting a ring on her finger. If you're committed enough to get engaged, you're committed enough to have sex.


 I agree, this is the *ROMANTIC view *of sex .... BE IN LOVE ....explained HERE...this IS an expression of commitment, emotional entanglement/ forever... marriage generally on the horizon.... this IS my view personally... even then it was....it was just something I promised myself from a young age and somehow had the discipline --(to wait).... 

BUT every fiber in our bodies wanted to go ALL THE WAY... we were typical teens -very touchy feely... he never had to question if I wanted it... he felt it --no words required. And every time we got together for that matter.... At 15...I was too young for him to be sticking it in... in this way.. we got used to what we enjoyed... it kept us from going stark raving MAD....and our emotional connection grew... 



> Our pre-marriage counselor gave us a personality inventory and then told us things about our future that were spot on given our predilections, and that I remember and encounter still to this day. I wish the psychology world had a similar test for sexual compatibility, but I've never heard of it.


 A shame I say. they DO have such tests today... and Oh how very important.... I have a few books on these things... The 6 sexual lenses, the 10 libido types >>> Identifying Your Libido Type ....the various Lover styles (can do that on Ok Cupid.com).... the role of hormones...even our Love languages...if one has Physical touch as not important and the other craves it at the top... this mismatch is likely going to cause frustration as well.

Relationships are so very complex...and sex is just as much all by itself !


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## Kari (Feb 17, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> .
> 
> Guys, face it...everyone thinks it is the OTHER PERSON'S fault.
> 
> Yet, YOU PICKED that other person.


On my wedding day, I didn't imagine the frequency would fall from 2 times per week, to once a week, then eventually to once a month. I also didn't imagine being so ignored within a couple years, not even kissed good morning or goodnight.


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## Kari (Feb 17, 2012)

deejov said:


> .
> 
> .
> And I have a feeling that if he had put a ring on it... things might have been different. That never seems to come up. That's my take on the underlying issue here. Not kingsfan himself, but the not spoken lack of comittment, and maybe the undertone that she thinks he is holding back.
> ...


Once the wedding cake is eaten, I expect things to get worse for kingsfan. We've read over and over on TAM that sex frequency almost always drops after marriage, although there are some exceptions such as midlife hormone changes or people who really start understanding the value of sex to their partner.

I don't think he should go through with it, just based on the little I know of the situation so far. Kingsfan is not willing to share with us why he has decided to marry her anyway given what his sex life will be.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

kingsfan had told me in a post (can't remember where now) that even though he calls her his fiance, he isn't sure he will ever actually marry her.

However, I still think it is a mistake to stay in an unfulfilling relationship at all....but was just at least pointing out that I am not sure kingsfan will actually be married again.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Kari said:


> Once the wedding cake is eaten, I expect things to get worse for kingsfan. We've read over and over on TAM that sex frequency almost always drops after marriage, although there are some exceptions such as midlife hormone changes or people who really start understanding the value of sex to their partner.
> 
> I don't think he should go through with it, just based on the little I know of the situation so far. Kingsfan is not willing to share with us why he has decided to marry her anyway given what his sex life will be.


Agreed -- nornally getting married doesn't solve the issue.
But I do think, from reading Kingsfan for awhile, that it is HIS issue. He's not all in. She knows it.


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## Kari (Feb 17, 2012)

deejov said:


> Agreed -- nornally getting married doesn't solve the issue.
> But I do think, from reading Kingsfan for awhile, that it is HIS issue. He's not all in. She knows it.


According to the MMSL book and most people on TAM, feeling a bit of insecurity increases your attraction and desire for sex. Once she feels he is all in, she will be less eager to please and more complacent and likely to become more LD, chances are.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Ah, kingsfan.
You will fall to the majority of MMSL and TAM readers.
So says the readers. 

I'm still pulling for you.

But I'm getting a bit impatient. We've all been talking to your shadow. Things okay?


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## Work-In-Progress (May 21, 2013)

I don't see how you could reliably predict a person's true intentions/feelings about sex before marriage, even if you did have sex before. What's to stop them from lying to you just to make you happy? 

Like someone mentioned earlier, my wife and I had intended to wait until marriage, but it didn't happen. We didn't do it daily or anything, but it was 1-2 times a week (at that point with me an hour away at school, we saw each other on the weekend and Wednesdays). I remember the excitement and anticipation I had about marriage sex. I remember numerous comments from her where she couldn't wait until we had our own home and could walk around naked and have sex in every room. I admit it's partly my fault since I'm not an aggressive type, but that sure never happened once we got married and had our own home (about 2 years later). The living room happened maybe twice, and the finished basement a couple times. We haven't made it out of the bedroom in our new home that we've been in almost five years. And as for the walking around naked, I have to laugh whenever I see that cable commercial where the guy jokes about the box being the only thing to see his wife walk around naked because I can totally identify with that.

Here is the commercial if you haven't see it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uyJyvUiwv4


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Sexual behavior in college or other uninhibited place away from (how to put it mildly) parental influences and the like is quite different than what will happen or may happen 30 years later. People change, situations change, and so on.

Also, alongside dialog. the other key is observation and rather cold-hearted analysis of facts. Do not ignore signs your partner is giving you. See how he/she is in comfortable settings (with family members for example) vs strangers (your family members ). Now, we should not have to play CSI Miami with our spouses but humans have an amazing ability to ignore details when they conflict with their own preconceived notions versus facts of the relationship...


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Holland said:


> Would love to chat about your post but honestly what is the point when attitudes like the bolded are the basis of your thoughts?


And what is wrong with the bolded?



CallaLily said:


> I see where LD people are frowned upon as well. At least thats how some posts on here come across sometimes. So its not just HD people.


LD people are frowned upon as well. I'm saying the HD person is more often frowned upon, but inside the relationship and from the outside if the issue comes out publicly, such as in a divorce.



Faithful Wife said:


> "Now if it was something I felt I couldn't do with a reasonable sense of interest, then I'd have left. I mean if it drove me nuts to listen to her talk about her day, I'm not signing up to listen about her day for the rest of my life."
> 
> 
> So why on earth would you NOT marry her if you felt you couldn't handle listening to her talk about her day for the rest of your life, but you would marry her even though you can also clearly see there will be a sexual mismatch?
> ...


I am not referring to myself, I'm referring to HD in general and to what you see in general life.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Starstarfish said:


> Now I don't expect the HD person to just stop liking sex, but often it seems from posts on this forum they don't even try to.
> I mean, the thought goes both ways.


Does it?

What options are there for the HD person to try to stop loving sex? We are taught around here to go get a hobby, or find some other way to spend our time. The LD person is encouraged to seek out medical opinions, see a therapist, read some of the many books out there like His Needs, Her Needs, etc. There are many more options for a LD person than a HD person. I actually one time in the past (several years ago now) went to a doctor about if there was anything to lower my libido. I libido killer essentially. My doctor couldn't find anything. I did some research on some herbal suppliments that were supposed to help and even those said they'd help only a little. Well they didn't help me. 

If I was LD though, we could test T levels, I could find out if it's a menatl block (via counselling) etc.

Point is, the LD has more options that the HD.



techmom said:


> I want to offer a response to this from the ld point of view:
> 
> Why is there so much emphasis on the sexual act itself, to the point where I feel that every hug, kiss and playful squeeze has to lead to "going upstairs"? It takes me longer to get aroused, and I don't need as much as you, so why do I get the silent treatment and bad attitude when I'm not in the mood. And you always need me to be in the mood so you can feel desired. I can't help it if I'm not always on the same wavelength as you. If I just agree to it and try to be enthused but then you say "it just isn't as good".
> 
> ...


You get the bad attitude and silent treatment for one simple reason, you are the ONLY source for that (sex).

I'm not defending it, in fact it is wrong, but if you really like to have flowers and your man says he doesn't want to get them for you, you can still go out and get those flowers for yourself. It doesn't mean as much, but you can get that desire or need filled.

Now if I the HD person wants sex and the LD person says no, the HD person could go out and get it elsewhere via a prostitute, an affair, etc. It doesn't mean as much either, but if you do it you could end up divorced, living in a ****hole apartment without your kids, broke and losing a bunch of friends.

Sex is unlike pretty much any other need in a relationship; it's something you can not get filled outside the realtionship without risk of heavy punishment.



deejov said:


> _I know if my wife wants a hug, wants to go for a drive, wants to talk about her day, or whatever else she feels the need to do on a regular basis, I comply with that request, and I do so the vast majority of the time because I want to. And how did I come to wanting to? Because I understood at the start of the relationship that that is something she needed or wanted significantly in a partner and I decided to try my best to give it to her._
> 
> 
> Yes, you do your best to make sure your wife's love tank is filled.
> ...


And how do you change what gives you your love tank credits? Ho do you choose to unchoose (or reduce) sex as a love tank credit and choose to pick up something else?


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

deejov said:


> _So why is it HD people are frowned upon? Why is society, or maybe just women (once again, apologies to those seemingly rare HD women, you are way to far and few between), hellbent on pointing the finger at the HD person as the problem when it comes to sexual incompatibility?_
> 
> Think about women and sex in general. We teach our young girls to be careful, safe, wary of men. Because if a man wanted to... he could overpower a woman and simply TAKE it.
> 
> ...


I agree with not wanting to be told to change. No one wants that. But then, isn't change FORCED unto the HD spouse? You're not even told the reason you are to change (except less sex than you feel the need for), you are just to accept the fact that there will be less sex. How is this better?



Created2Write said:


> Kingsfan, I'm really sorry for your situation. You sound like a very loving and self-sacrificing man, and I wish you had a woman who was the same way. Your patience is both honorable, and....confusing, frankly.
> 
> Between my husband and I, I'm the lower drive but I don't consider my sexual drive to be low. When I was a virgin, I didn't understand why a guy would breakup with me over nothing but sex. I knew sex was important to build intimacy, but I didn't believe that it was essential to a dating relationship. And it wasn't until I was with a man who didn't place major value on sex when dating that I was actually open to having sex...when I felt that he valued me as a person more than just my vagina, I felt safe giving him what the other guys weren't willing to stick around for. And man oh man, when I finally felt valued as a woman for who I was and understood, did my sexual desires surface for the first time in my life. And ya know, it totally fits with my number one emotional need: Admiration. Feeling valued is a part of that, and it awoke sexual urges I'd never had before.
> 
> ...


Always great hearing from you C2W. How's the book coming?

I think you touched on what I'm going at with what I bolded. He loves you, therefore he meets your needs. And if he can't, he tries. He tries 100%.

That's what a marriage should be to me. If my partner wants something, I try my best to give it to her. But that should be vice versa. Once again, I'm not expecting a woman (or man if he is the LD, I'm just discussing the view point from the male side as they are often the HD spouse) to be forced to give up sex, but they should be expected to try their best to improve their sexual appetite. To often we hear the stories of "I just don't want it" "It'll get better" "I don't need to see a doctor" or "I don't have a problem, you have a problem because you want sex so much"

When does the onus fall on the LD to improve the sex life?



Faithful Wife said:


> Another general point I'd like to make in this discussion, is that in many cases, the LD spouse is actually intimacy avoidant. In people who are avoidant in that way, intimacy can actually be experienced as emotionally painful or anxiety producing.
> 
> So if HD people can really understand this, maybe it can help.
> 
> ...


Good point about the harm of being intimate. That said, shouldn't the LD person tell the HD person this well before marraige? To often we hear of these issues surfacing years later. If it bothers you to be intimate, tell the person who needs that intimacy. Failure to do so is just a means to trap someone.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

There's a guy in the shop who's married and has kids and he and his wife are in their 40's. They had good crazy sex before they got married and had kids and they still have just as much good crazy sex after they got married with kids and both work full time jobs. They are both HD individuals and were honest about it and the wedding rings and wedding cake did nothing to kill their sex lives together.

There's another guy and his gf and they had crazy sex every day, many times each day in their mid 20's. She got pregnant and only has 2 months left until they have their son, she still wants sex every day and even gives her bf BJ's just before he goes to work. They are both HD and were honest about it.

I know honestly is the best policy. So if a spouse to be is really LD but has good sex while dating, then after they put on the wedding ring, eat the wedding cake and get married, the sex drive drops off drastically, they lied and deceived their HD spouse. That's the problem right there.

LD individuals must meet their HD other half at least half way and stick to it, and nothing less than that will do. The HD spouse can lower their sexual freqencies to also meet the LD spouses efforts but when they do have sex, it is really great quality sex and not 1 - 5 minutes, are you done yet?

LD's can get therapy, take meds, marriage counseling, exercise helps, you name it. HD's have really nothing in this regard.

Without harping on the LD spouse, just meet your other half at least half of the way all the time and stick to it. No more sigh, do I have to have sex? Rolls their eyes. You just got it this week. Maybe later. No more lame excuses and treating your HD spouses sexual desire for you and only you like it doesn't mean a thing and makes them feel worthless and not cared for.

And from what I've read on TAM, the LD's are the ones not compromising, learning, changing or taking care of their HD spouses needs. They pretty much do nothing. But the HD spouses are doing all the hoop jumping, reading, changing with the hopes that killing their sex drives (un - healthy) they might get some sex from their LD spouse. Not cool.....


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

LD is not a single issue with a single cause but rather a symptom with one of many different causes. As such, trying to arrive at one-size-fits-all solutions will not be very effective.

Think of physical, emotional, spiritual, cultural, mental, and other issues and intentional behaviors contributing to LD within the individual and even between the individual and his/her surroundings. LD because of an extramarital affair is quite different than hormonal imbalance and so on. Only after you find one or more root causes you can begin to do something about it.

Better yet, some of those issues are not there from day one, people change, situations change, and views change. There are some fundamental starting points but eventually everyone's LD is different.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Cletus said:


> My advice would be this:
> 
> Have sex before marriage. Not casually, but about the same time you're considering putting a ring on her finger. If you're committed enough to get engaged, you're committed enough to have sex.
> 
> ...


Definitely. Hubs and I were both busting at the seems, wanting to have sex with each other. We continually pushed the boundaries because, holy freaking cow, did we want each other. Manual stimulation was the first step after heavy making out. Cause, honestly, there was just no way we weren't going to make out, but the making out led to practically instant arousal...so we tried manual. And that satiated us for...about a month. Then we went to oral...OMG...one of the best and worst things for a Christian girl like me. It was best because it really did satiate my desire for sexual stimulation, and I had never orgasmed before. Not even with manual stimulation. That just felt good. But even the oral sex didn't satiate my desires completely...and it wasn't more than a couple months later that we were making out and...yeah. I threw my previous boundaries out the window. 

For others it may not be so obvious. I have a friend right now that I'm fairly worried for. She's a strong Christian, and not a girl who really desires physical intimacy. She talks about sex openly and without embarrassment, and is curious about certain things, but as for specific desires...she doesn't have any. Now, I didn't either until my husband and I really started having close physical intimacy. So, I don't know if those desires just haven't been awakened in her yet, or if it's something else. She's kind of a comit-a-phobe; her bf is totally in love with her, but she's not wanting to rush into things. I'm curious if, when she finally knows that she wants to be with him forever, if _then_ those desires will come forward. 

If not, though, I'm going to have a very serious talk with her about sex. 



> You can't ask a virgin what they like and don't like about partnered sex, 'cause they just don't know. Not knowing isn't a crime, so get a copy of something like "The Guide to Getting it On" and have both parties read it from cover to cover. Mark up any questions in the book. Highlight the things you would consider doing and those that are out of bounds. Compare notes and have a thrilling, giggly good time of it.


Love this, totally agree!



> Then discuss, at embarrassing length, though at this point most guys are going to be so aroused just from the conversation that they might have trouble listening carefully and diligently. Ask her what her expectation is on married sex - is it expected to be a joy, a duty, or a cross to bear? Is she in general the curious sort who likes new experiences, or the sort that's afraid of too much change or excitement?
> 
> Then, most importantly of all, listen to your gut and the answers you get. Small differences are negotiable, but don't gloss over the big things, like expecting compromise and huge differences in interest or desire or expected frequency. As unromantic as it sounds, treat the entire episode like it were an SAT for your partner. No man wants to feel like the pervert who dumped his girlfriend for her sexual attitudes even before marriage, but he'll feel even worse later on divorcing her over it.


Yup. I agree with this too.



> Our pre-marriage counselor gave us a personality inventory and then told us things about our future that were spot on given our predilections, and that I remember and encounter still to this day. I wish the psychology world had a similar test for sexual compatibility, but I've never heard of it.
> 
> Oh, and send him here to read for himself what issues people have when they don't share each other's views on sex. You don't have to admit to your user name
> 
> Anyway, that's what I would do.


Wisdom, Cletus. This is wisdom. I struggle with figuring out how to balance what I believe about sex with what the Bible teaches. I don't "regret" my choice to fornicate, but I only had sex with the man I married...which is vastly different than casual sex, in my mind. But, regardless of where my future children choose to take the information I give them, I will at least know that when they marry, they will _know_ what to expect in regards to sex. I won't have my kids being as ignorant as I was. It turned out well for me, thank the Lord, but it doesn't for all sheltered Christian girls and I refuse to raise prudes. Plain and simple.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

kingsfan said:


> Always great hearing from you C2W. How's the book coming?


It's on hold for the moment. I'm going back to school to finish my AA, and then to get a certificate to become a Medical Assistant, so for now I'm just open to new life experiences that I can, hopefully, use later on in my writings. 



> I think you touched on what I'm going at with what I bolded. He loves you, therefore he meets your needs. And if he can't, he tries. He tries 100%.
> 
> That's what a marriage should be to me. If my partner wants something, I try my best to give it to her. But that should be vice versa. Once again, I'm not expecting a woman (or man if he is the LD, I'm just discussing the view point from the male side as they are often the HD spouse) to be forced to give up sex, but they should be expected to try their best to improve their sexual appetite. To often we hear the stories of "I just don't want it" "It'll get better" "I don't need to see a doctor" or "I don't have a problem, you have a problem because you want sex so much"
> 
> When does the onus fall on the LD to improve the sex life?


This is the big question, and it's one that I'm not sure can be answered because each situation is different. In my personal opinion, I think that we're each responsible for our part in the sexual relationship 100% of the time...with no exceptions. I think that LD people should always be open to doing what they can to improve the sexual relationship they have with their partner...even if they can only do a little bit. Just like I think the HD person should do what they can to improve the trust and safety on the relationship, so that the LD person allows themselves to be vulnerable. 

The issue, of course, is that both parties have to want to do this, and as is all too common, that simply isn't so for every couple. Sometimes both are at fault, sometimes it's mostly just one of them. When the LD person doesn't want to do their part, is when, imo, the relationship is over. There is little to no chance of success when the HD person gives all they can, and the LD person isn't even interested in trying. Relationships are mutual. Without mutuality, where is the relationship? Even if everything else is great?


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

How about if the person is ld in the beginning of the relationship before marriage? KIngsfan is not married yet, but he still wants her to change. This is not a bait and switch, he can leave but still wants to get deeper into a mismatch relationship. He is frustrated and I'm sure she is too, why continue the agony?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

If Kingsfan knows his woman is LD, then there is no bait and switch.

He can have a serious final talk with her and either they reach a sexual middle ground, which is the only fair thing to do, out of love for each other and not duty sex or she doesn't change and its time to dump her and move on. Many HD women out there that would love to be with Kingsfan.

I change and adapt quickly and I learn from others life experiences and mistakes and my wife knows this. She is the one that doesn't change or adapt much if at all or it takes forever.


"The issue, of course, is that both parties have to want to do this, and as is all too common, that simply isn't so for every couple. Sometimes both are at fault, sometimes it's mostly just one of them. When the LD person doesn't want to do their part, is when, imo, the relationship is over. There is little to no chance of success when the HD person gives all they can, and the LD person isn't even interested in trying. Relationships are mutual. Without mutuality, where is the relationship? Even if everything else is great?"

:iagree::iagree:


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

In my case, my hubby knew that I was shy and apprehensive about sex but wanted to pursue me anyway. He tried the whipped cream, sauces and other things which I was not enthusiastic about. I was a virgin and he had multiple partners who were hd. Why he did not pick the hd girls I do not know, but he thought that I had a inner hd person waiting to be released. So he married me, 23 years later we are still mismatched. Lots of other issues in marriage dampened my libido and desire for him as well.

This topic hits home for me because sex is no longer fun. It is just the experimental "let's see if this works to unlock her desire" routine which I am so tired of. HDs complain about the ld doing nothing, lds feel put upon to be something that we are not. Why my hubby couldn't pick a genuine hd woman to swing from the chandeliers with? Why poke and prod me to feel something I don't. This is what we ld people think and feel.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Tech mom, how much of said LD is due to resentment in general due to deeper issues and how much due to the, how to put it, expectations and experiments?

In other words, if he made a non experimental initiation attempt while wanting to make you the focus of the process, would he get the same reaction than he'd get if he walked in with stopwatch and clipboard ready for another trial?


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

techmom,



"You knew your hubby is HD, so why did you marry him if you're LD and don't want to meet him half way?"



My wifee is also LD and I am HD like your hubby.

My wife was raised by very conservative, quiet and shy parents. She is a larger woman and that's makes her more insecure and she covers herself up for the most part. She was told in her past she is fat and won't amount to much. So she focused all her energies on pleasing people and her job and university. This has carried through for the last 13+ years of our marriage. Her sex drive hasn't changed much at all but I have read many e-books, advice on TAM, bought her a small discrete vibrator, romantic cards and flowers, surprise dinners, being more alpha male, making the decisions and being the captain while she is my first mate, I'm no longer a nice guy but I'm not a total jerk either, cuddling on the couch, listening to her at times she really needs it, you name it. I have done the changing, learning and killing my sex drive for her, to get what in return? I'm LD and its the way I am, nuts to you? I would say, those who don't make the effort should leave the relationship. Having sex with your spouse is a beautiful thing, intimate, a closeness and bonding that words and reading can never do, otherwise you are just friends and room mates.

If HD people only dated and married HD people, good matches.

If LD people only dated and married LD people, good matches.

It's not easy to find a sexual match, so many men and women that are sexually starved and their other half does nothing.....meet half way out of love, want your other half to be happy or why be in the relationship? Door swings both ways.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> The title of this thread is "why is it frowned upon to be the HD in the relationship", and then it goes on to frown upon those who are the LD in the relationship.
> 
> Guys, face it...everyone thinks it is the OTHER PERSON'S fault.
> 
> Yet, YOU PICKED that other person.


I'm not picking on the LD person, though I can see where that impression came from. Rather, I was just venting over the enormous amounts of threads that on this board that seem to show the HD person bending backwards for sex, while the LD person continues to toss every reason in the book not to try. "I'm tired" I have a headache" "It'll get better" "I'm just tired from the kids" etc etc.

Now yes, some of this (and in some marriages all of this) can be attributed to the lack of affection/attention/etc. from the HD person. LiveLaughLove said it very well. But this isn't the case always, and what I'd like to see is more of an effort from LD spouses to actually try and fix the sexual issues in the marriage. To often it appears like they have an "It's not bothering me so why should I bother trying to fix it" attitude. That is an issue.



Faithful Wife said:


> And we have kingsfan, who started this thread, who isn't married to his LD fiance.......who can see things for what they are yet he is still moving forward...the train keeps getting closer but he just keeps saying "why, why won't she change?"
> 
> (not meaning to pick on you kingsfan...just that you are a perfect example and it is your thread)


I'm unclear why a few people in this thread are driving the point at me that I have an LD spouse and should get out. This thread isn't about me, and just because I started it doesn't mean it's a true reflection of my life and relationship. Rather, it's an observation I have made on this board over the past year (almost) I have been here.



Cletus said:


> For the record, I'm in 100% agreement with you on kingsfan. If you can see the headlight coming at you, stay the hell out of the tunnel.


See above.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Created2Write said:


> Wisdom, Cletus. This is wisdom. I struggle with figuring out how to balance what I believe about sex with what the Bible teaches. I don't "regret" my choice to fornicate, but I only had sex with the man I married...which is vastly different than casual sex, in my mind.


Your story is very similar to my wife and I's. We both wanted not to do things before marriage, but we just couldn't resist. I'm glad it worked out for us and we married, because it would have been really hard for both of us if we didn't.

My wife did have some guilt for a while that we didn't wait. Her biggest worry is what she'd say if a daughter asked her that directly. So far none of our kids have asked if we did.



Created2Write said:


> But, regardless of where my future children choose to take the information I give them, I will at least know that when they marry, they will _know_ what to expect in regards to sex. I won't have my kids being as ignorant as I was. It turned out well for me, thank the Lord, but it doesn't for all sheltered Christian girls and I refuse to raise prudes. Plain and simple.


I suggest you check out a great thread by SA:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/family...-sex-relation-love-her-emotions-her-life.html

HD runs in my family. BIG TIME. Multiple relatives border on sex addicts. I'm less certain, but I think it does run on my MIL's side too based on some comments from some of my wife's cousins. Given that history plus some other hints, I think both of my daughters will be HD. It would be really sad for them to be stuck in a marriage with a LD guy.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Big assumption set here... 1. That LD is aware of the issue 2. That he/she is aware of the issue's impact. 3. That something can be done to address the issue. 4. That something should be done...


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

deejov said:


> Why kingsfan is one of my favs:
> This is his 2nd go around with a similar problem. (and maybe marraige shy now)


I am definately having large second thoughts, but only due to sex. Which shows how important sex is to me. 



deejov said:


> He openly shares what is going on
> He seems like he really does truly just want to have that truly fulfulling relationship
> He is willing to be human and vent like he did here.


I se no reason to hid anything on a message board full of strangers (or at least people I'd likely not even know if I ran into them on the street). I want to better my life, so I'll answer all questions openly. And yes, I want that truly fulfilling relationship in all areas. There is little we don't get along with, except sex. When it comes to sex, we are miles apart I feel. 



deejov said:


> Quite often, there is mention of "you must fix this relationship, own what you did, or it will follow you to your next one".
> 
> I honestly read from Kingsfan that is not the case, he has a preference for women who are like most other women.
> And I have a feeling that if he had put a ring on it... things might have been different. That never seems to come up. That's my take on the underlying issue here. Not kingsfan himself, but the not spoken lack of comittment, and maybe the undertone that she thinks he is holding back.
> ...


I'm engaged, so there is a ring. 



Cletus said:


> My advice would be this:
> 
> Have sex before marriage. Not casually, but about the same time you're considering putting a ring on her finger. If you're committed enough to get engaged, you're committed enough to have sex.


This works if we are talking about a 3-5 year engagement. What about those couples who are sexually compatible until the lust wears off? For some, it doesn't wear off right away, it can take a while. My current relationship, it was over two years before there was any issue. If anything, I couldn't keep up with her (though I damn well tried my best!). Then the lust colored glasses fell off and things became an issue. 

For my marriage to my ex-wife, we waited 2.5 years before we got married. Sex was actually great for the first year or so, then it slowly weened down. But even at marriage it was still once a week, and a lot of the slow down I attributed to her being pregnant (oops). I figured once the baby came, it'd pick back up. I had no grasp on how much kids (and a suddenly uninterested spouse) eats away at sexual desire.

Point being, simply having sex before marriage is not a great way to weed out if you are sexually compatible.



Kari said:


> Once the wedding cake is eaten, I expect things to get worse for kingsfan. We've read over and over on TAM that sex frequency almost always drops after marriage, although there are some exceptions such as midlife hormone changes or people who really start understanding the value of sex to their partner.
> 
> I don't think he should go through with it, just based on the little I know of the situation so far. Kingsfan is not willing to share with us why he has decided to marry her anyway given what his sex life will be.


This is totally not true. I have never been unwilling to share anything around here, so if you want to know anything next time, just ask.

I have actually posted my story here a dozen times or so, so I'm not going to ramble on about it again. If you want the long-winded version, PM me. Here's the Cole's Notes:

In a nutshell, my first marriage was complete horse****. Not just sexually, but in multiple ways. She ran around on me, she was emotionally abusive, she was controlling, belittling, etc. It was a very humiliating experience.

My relationship with my fiancee is different in everyway. We rarely argue (and I do mean very rarely), we have a great relationship in many ways, share a lot of common interests, and just generally are, IMO, almost perfect outside of the bedroom. I mean I really have few complaints at all. It is the complete 180 from my marriage to my ex-wife.

Inside the bedroom is where we have issues. And they are causing problems for me no doubt.

That said, I can honestly say that is the only problem. Now I'm not downplaying this, but it is the only complaint. 

My fiancee and aI have been together for roughly 5 and a half years, and we have been living together for almost three. We have a house together, are considered common law under the law as well, and my oldest son lives with me full time and really views my fiancee as his mom, as his real mom has effective pushed him out of her life (won't answer his phone calls, rarely lets him come over, never visits him, etc.) 

To leave my fiancee would mean I would have to give up a lot of good times, have to essentially pull another mother away from my oldest son, have to sell my home (or buy her out), etc. We aren't married legally, but we have a lot together and in essence, I view us as married already. 

I hope that clears things up for you.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

CuddleBug said:


> I am a God fearing Christian man but not a goodie goodie if you know what I mean. My faith has nothing to do with my HD.
> 
> My wifee is neutral on this because her dad is an atheist and her mom believes, so basically she doesn't believe. Yet she is LD.
> 
> ...


Exactly right.

Only a few of us seem to understand (or are willing to put in writing) this simple truth. There is no way that an HD person would say "just blow me and leave me be" or "what's with all this talking and dating stuff". But, an LD person who says "why does sex have to matter" or "why do I have to get the cold shoulder" is doing exactly this, just from the opposite place.

The only way this blatantly uneven treatment works is if any sense of balance or equality is out the door.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

deejov said:


> Ah, kingsfan.
> You will fall to the majority of MMSL and TAM readers.
> So says the readers.
> 
> ...


Thanks.

I can't always post her, unfortunately we have this called work and life, lol. Plus a break for a day or two can be good. But all's well.



techmom said:


> In my case, my hubby knew that I was shy and apprehensive about sex but wanted to pursue me anyway. He tried the whipped cream, sauces and other things which I was not enthusiastic about. I was a virgin and he had multiple partners who were hd. Why he did not pick the hd girls I do not know, but he thought that I had a inner hd person waiting to be released. So he married me, 23 years later we are still mismatched. Lots of other issues in marriage dampened my libido and desire for him as well.
> 
> This topic hits home for me because sex is no longer fun. It is just the experimental "let's see if this works to unlock her desire" routine which I am so tired of. HDs complain about the ld doing nothing, lds feel put upon to be something that we are not. Why my hubby couldn't pick a genuine hd woman to swing from the chandeliers with? Why poke and prod me to feel something I don't. This is what we ld people think and feel.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Reading this begs the questions, why did you marry him?


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

I hope you guys find a sexual middle ground and your marriage is solid and I wish you the best Kingsfan.

LD's are never at fault. If they marry a HD spouse, its the HD spouses fault and the HD spouse must do all the changing. Then its all good, see? 

Since I've started my natural test booster cycle again, I have energy, don't need as much sleep, feel great and want sex often. When I went cold turkey, I had little energy, always tired, never enough sleep, low sex drive and couldn't be bothered to weight train. Men NEED test and that also means sex and often. We are built this way.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

deejov said:


> _So why is it HD people are frowned upon? Why is society, or maybe just women (once again, apologies to those seemingly rare HD women, you are way to far and few between), hellbent on pointing the finger at the HD person as the problem when it comes to sexual incompatibility?_
> 
> Think about women and sex in general. We teach our young girls to be careful, safe, wary of men. Because if a man wanted to... he could overpower a woman and simply TAKE it.
> 
> ...


As sad as this sounds, I agree that it is common in our society. There are two important things to point out.

1) Your post is inherently contradictory and unfair to the HD among us. You say that you cannot force someone to give what they cannot or will not. But, the LD tries to do just that to the HD spouse. With the exception of LOTL, I have yet to see a LD spouse here (or anywhere else) say "I admit I do a bad job of meeting your sexual need, and I don't intend to change. However, I will not ask you to [meet my emotional needs, support me, etc.] since it's not fair that I get more out of this than you". So, whereas the HD are accused of being selfish but in reality are willing to give as much as they receive, the LD (ironically) is typically by far the more selfish spouse.

2) Anybody who raises their kids with the above-noted credo / mindset is doing them a huge disservice and really parenting poorly in this respect. Yes, of course you have to be careful about whom you have sex with. But the flip side is that sex with the right partner is a huge positive for the individual and the relationship. It is not dirty, nasty, or tolerable.

My daughter is troubled that her mom and her mom's new partner are experiencing negative sexual tension (which is a HUGE surprise). My response to her is simple - if you don't like someone in that way, you should not be in a relationship with him.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

treyvion said:


> And HD's are NOT BLAMING LD's unless they were "baited and switched", it happens.


:iagree:


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

treyvion said:


> What if they where "Christians" and chose to forgo sex before marriage? How could you know?


Well, not that this helps much, but if you have this problem then you did not marry a Christian (at least not one who is serious about the faith).

The Bible allows freedom of sexual expression within marriage and commands providing for your spouse's sexual satisfaction (not just some sex, or sex for reproduction). If you are falling short of this and not even trying to resolve the situation, you are in enmity with the Bible and therefore not really a Christian.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

ScarletBegonias said:


> The only way I'd venture to say you could get an idea is just by a lot of communication.You can get a feel for where people stand if you talk to them enough.
> The questions SHOULD be asked before the vows are taken.Expectations should be put on the table and addressed.even if you're not establishing a sexual relationship ahead of marriage it needs to be discussed in detail.


Totally agreed. It doesn't always work because people do manipulate and lie about sex to get their way, but it's a good start. It's even better to discuss where the marriage will be if the need is not met.

When my ex proposed, I accepted that what she was willing to do before marriage was limited as she claimed to be a Christian and had her limits. So, I spelled out exactly what I expected after marriage, but that's it.

Had I to do it over again, I would have added "You need to know that I consider a bad sexual relationship to be divorce-worthy, and if you aren't trying earnestly to meet my need I won't stick around".


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Cletus said:


> That's true, but it suffers from the famous Rumsfeldian "unknown unknowns". Sexually inexperienced people often don't know what what they like or dislike, don't know what's available, and don't even know what questions to ask.
> 
> Until you've had conflict with someone else over sex, it might not even occur to you that this can be a problem in a marriage. I know for sure that's what happened with the person who sleeps next to me most nights.


Agree, but I strongly feel there's more to it than sex. It's often a respect and consideration issue as well.

My ex might not have been into sex as much as she claimed, but if she had (1) been generous and (2) been inclined to live up to her word, the sex need would still have been met.

The point is that you need to be dating someone closely and spending lots of time with them before even thinking about marriage (in addition to clearly expressing your expectations and expressing consequences for not meeting the need). Between those three approaches, you really can't do better in assuring a compatible partner.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

ScarletBegonias said:


> This is probably true I just can't wrap my mind around someone being that clueless.Unless the person lives in a bubble prior to marriage,they'd HAVE to know the key things people complain about in marriage.It's all over the place.Every where you look there's discussion about it.Sex,money,kids,etc.


I totally agree.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Sexually inexperienced people know if they like to masterbate... if they love and NEED pleasure, I know I sure did...


True, and they also know if they are inherently generous or not. I think what's really lacking here is the commitment to meet your partner's needs even if your own drive is hitting a low point.

I was a "bait and switch" victim, but I know not all problems have this root cause. I think the question before marriage needs to be not just "am I sexually attracted to this person?" but also "am I willing to commit myself to meeting this person's sexual need if I am having problems with my own drive?'.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

One assumes people do not change with this thought process. That is hardly the case. If one lives and thinks the same way at 45 as they did at 25...


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

kingsfan said:


> Point being, simply having sex before marriage is not a great way to weed out if you are sexually compatible.


It is a necessary but insufficient step. 

I don't think there is any way to know how sexually compatible you will remain 5 years down the road without a full evaluation of whether or not sex is a core part of your happiness, without which you are incomplete. 

But I sure as hell know one way to find out if you're sexually compatible today. When you pass step 1, you get to move on to step 2. Failing step 1, there is no need for step 2.



> That said, I can honestly say that is the only problem. Now I'm not downplaying this, but it is the only complaint.


Welcome to the club.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Cletus said:


> No, but I'll take the risk on the correlation being high enough to have predictive value.


Early in dating, my wife and I had occasion to discuss the "how often do you masturbate" question. (Thanks to a particular Seinfeld episode, where the characters had a contest to see who could go the longest without doing "that"  ).

So, she told me: Just about every day!
Me: Same, during the weekdays. On weekends, sometimes twice.

I think we were both honest at the time.


20 years later, everything is different. (It changed dramatically, and suddenly, after childbirth about 13 years ago, IMHO.)


Predicting far into the future about anything is difficult.
Weather folks are pretty good about tomorrow's forecast. But, longer term, they suck.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

PieceOfSky said:


> Early in dating, my wife and I had occasion to discuss the "how often do you masturbate" question. (Thanks to a particular Seinfeld episode, where the characters had a contest to see who could go the longest without doing "that"  ).
> 
> So, she told me: Just about every day!
> Me: Same, during the weekdays. On weekends, sometimes twice.
> ...


Elaine lost right after Kramer, as I recall.

Test-driving before you're married is the meteorological equivalent of the 10 day forecast. Much better than sticking your finger into the wind, and good only as far as it goes, but you wouldn't plan a picnic with nothing but rain coming down the pike.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> If you could live your life over again, get your PRE marital days back... tell me, from all you have learned, *what advice do YOU have for your sons..to spare them? *
> 
> Our oldest plans on waiting till marriage for sex... he is a Worship Leader and that's how he believes...I am not going to change him, he is as stubborn as I am about stuff...


Not asked directly at me, but feeling a need to chime in. I am thinking of providing my daughters with these bits of wisdom, directly or indirectly. Haven't thought it all through, but here goes:

1) Date around, early. Perhaps early enough such that there are even structural/ "road blocks" to falling too deeply too fast, or getting physically intimate too fast. (Chaperones, or needing adults to provide transportation, is a bit of a buzz kill, I hope.)

2) Get it through your head that there are lots of fish in the sea. The notion that there is "just one" potential soulmate is rather burdensome to finding a soulmate. Even if there is just one. (And there is not!, but I digress.)

3) If your heart gets broken, get back on the horse immediately -- any horse -- right away. Get professional help, if you need to, to get your courage back.

The whole point of this is to avoid being in the position where you are not really qualified to judge the suitability of someone for being your lifetime partner. The more you know...

4) Consider first and foremost the other's approach to self-awareness and personal growth. Actions, there like everywhere else, speak louder than words.

5) Read NMMNG, or something analagous if you are female.

6) Read TAM, or books about difficulties married people face, and the sh!tty things they can do. Don't be naive.

7) Find some way to understand the different ways relationships can be -- good, bad, or deceptively luke warm.

8) Never compromise, and accept less than you want out of life and love.

9) Fail fast. (Perhaps a project management/software engineering term. Better to have loved briefly and lost horribly, than loved a long time and then lost, horribly, a long time.)

10) Understand kids and other stressors can change everything.

11) Understand people change how they are willing and able to behave. But, often, their wiring is visible early on. Don't look away. 

12) Flee early from "ambivalence" in your partner.

13) If it seems at all like your Mom and Dad's marriage (speaking to my kids), RUN.

Regarding committing without having a sexual relationship first, I have no idea. Except it seems important to be able to discuss any and all things about sex. There's no rule that I recall that honest and purposeful discussions with a potential spouse are a sin.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Not sure why, but I just wanted to say, on TAM I've come across LDs who are, in a truly loving fashion, working to meet their partners needs. And, there are those who have somehow managed to feel more desire and have somehow turned themselves into HDs.

FWIW, to those in particular, I just wanted to say, I admire your efforts/good-fortune/lovingness/generousity/etc that you have put towards the success of your relationship.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

I cannot answer the question as posed. 

I can tell you why I feel frowned up, for my HD-ness, by my wife, in our relationship.

1) I feel she has attempted to invalidate my feelings about the lack of physically-rich intimacy in our relationship. I don't have time right now to dig up the specifics at the moment, but that's how I feel. When someone is doing something that leaves me feeling a bit invalidated, I feel a bit frowned upon.

2) Despite evidence and statements and tears (mine) to the contrary, she still seems to think I "just want to have sex" (meaning the physical act), and with her "only because I'm the one here". She projects onto me (IMHO) that I'm like a horny teenage male that just wants to "get some" -- like I'm after some "player" looking to score. (I don't have the energy at the moment to express how wrong wrong wrong and rationalizing that feels to me! But if anyone wants to know why I feel frowned upon for being the HD -- it is because she projects ONTO ME the cheapest hollowest motivations for sex, despite many reasons why she SHOULD see that it far from the case. That f'ing feels like being frowned upon!)

3) I have been a good boy for a very long time now. I have learned how to not bother her but once every three or four months, when the stars are aligned, life stressors are at their lowest levels, and I have reliably and uncomplainingly slogged away at my family responsibilities, taken her disdain for my "failures" best I can, worked on myself and our relationship while she refuses to do nothing be b!tch and moan at me and the kids, and I have consciously tried my best to fill her emotional tank -- and, then, I will stick my neck out and try to ask like a man for something.

And, then, being as attentive and mind-reading lover as I can, I will be told how maybe I was too rough or took too long. Or, that maybe I'm not joyful enough around her.

And then I will be told, no, it's not a rejection of you. It's just I'm not into sex. But, later, I'm so angry at you (btw, she is apparently not willing to do anything about it), and no wonder I'm not open to having sex. You don't "date" me right (despite her constant unavailability for time with me, her constant avoidance of me -- sleeping in the same bed at the same time, for instance), her complaints that "16 years ago we went out to such and such and the way you acted just proves to me you didn't love me then", and I miss that sexual part of me (translation: and you are the one that killed it). 

My point here is, however she attempts to rationalize it at any particular time, and the many mixed messages to sends to me about how she has experienced it, it IS a rejection of me. So, yeah, that feels like I'm being frowned upon. (I don't agree I deserve it, btw, but that's enough about that for now.)

4) She seems offended by the notion that someone would leave their partner because of a lack of sex. We happened to watch "This Emotional Life" the other day (episode 1) on Netflix. She was so angry and repulsed by the guy that told his wife that if their relationship wasn't going to include sexual intimacy, then he was going to leave. (Like, what an a-hole for being direct about what his needs were. I have my doubts if his wife had expressed discontent about any other sort of issue and that she was done, then my wife would have been incensed at her. Her response just boggles my mind.)

5) She admits the biggest issue, standing in the way of a fulfilling sex life for us, is her anger towards me. She does nothing to do anything about her anger. Feels like she is rationalizing, and content to make me suffer, because I somehow deserve it. That leaves me feeling frowned upon by her.


FWIW, I don't tell her her needs are not important to me -- in words, and, I like to believe, in my actions. I have tried to meet her halfway on her needs, and then some, but it is never good enough -- she will find fault with my execution of how I tried to meet her needs, or forget about it the many things I have done recently, or yell at me for trying to point it out that maybe I deserve a little credit for these couple of recent things ("What, do you think you deserve a medal.")

When I'm the only one putting effort into finding solutions, then it starts to feel like it must be all my fault. So, she must be frowning upon me.

After awhile, I start to frown upon myself.

Sorry to rant.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Ask what can you do to reduce the anger in basic steps and see if it is clear, measurable, and attainable. Keep track of progress. Discuss expectations, milestones, and the like. Use MC if needed. If she changes the story weekly or she is unwilling to go thru and you see no progress is likely that it's MAD time.


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## CreekWalker (May 31, 2013)

Being the high demand lover when you are the woman...well in most guys eyes there's something wrong with that. Hubs friends joke about not getting any...and he's all smug that he gets more than what he wants. 

Thing is...he's either overwhelmed or repulsed because he doesn't want intimacy very often at all. 

Being a female HD...your girlfriends laugh about "using" sex to motivate their men, and you start to wonder what's wrong with you. Or if he is the one using you. Wondering if there is something wrong with you or if you should be grateful. 

Maybe I'm not a challenge. Maybe I'm a bore. Maybe maybe maybe.


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