# What is the likelihood of a PA?



## Alyosha (Feb 27, 2012)

My wife (10 years, 4 kids) admitted to an EA with a man she met at the gym. I believe it lasted about 4 months. After discovery, she told me at one point that her heart was "entirely with" the OM and that she wanted a separation. 

I asked her if he loved her and she said that "I think he could love me." I asked her if she was willing to lose a marriage of 10 years, a husband who does love her, and hurt 4 young children for the possibility that he might come to love her. She said yes. (not the greatest day of my life) ; ) 

Here's the question: after I was hit by the 'gut feeling' I checked the phone records and installed a key logger -- literally hundreds of text messages and hundreds of calls over the course of about 2-3 months; some of the TMs 40-50 strings long; some of the calls in excess of 90 min.

They didn't really communicate by e-mail and I cannot get the content of the TMs and I, of course, had no access to their conversations. I have asked her if it became physical and she said no. Although she did admit to visiting his house on one occasion to "see the landscaping." 

Frankly, her answer (no PA) just doesn't make any sense to me at all. Would a woman really decide to leave her family for a man that she hadn't so much as kissed? I have asked her what they talked about for hours and what they texted to each other and she offered absolutely no specifics -- just general non-incriminating bs.


After a NC period of about 5 months and much MC, I find out from the key logger that she has opened a secret e-mail account and has sent the OM the following message (apparently in response to a note he handed to her at the grocery store). "Despite thousands of dollars in therapy and being in hell for months, I would like to talk to you. I can meet at X (public) place at X time. Remember, you still have something of mine. (signed) X (no "love" no "xxoo" just X)."

I lost my mind (stupid) and immediately confronted her about it before the meeting took place. I asked her why she did this and she said she had to meet him in order to tell him that she didn't want him in her life anymore. I asked her what he still had of hers and she said "I don't know. I was just doodling." Again, I find this simply not credible. Why would you arrange to meet someone to tell them you don't want to see them again? It just makes no sense to me. Further, you don't write "you still have something of mine" out of the blue as a "doodle." It just has to be a lie, right? Am I crazy?

Bottom line: Even though she denies it and I can't prove it, I feel 80% certain that this thing was physical. I think that she won't admit it simply because she knows that I have no proof.

From the evidence, what does everyone here think? Any advice as to how I can find out? I know some here might say "EA/PA? What's the difference? An affair is an affair." but this is a extremely important difference to me.

Thanks to all who respond.


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## AngryandUsed (Jun 23, 2011)

Goodness!

You will get a lot of messages here. IMHO, the affair has most likely gone physical.
How has been your sexual life? This could be one of the indicators.

Just let her go!


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## Alyosha (Feb 27, 2012)

AngryandUsed said:


> Goodness!
> 
> You will get a lot of messages here. IMHO, the affair has most likely gone physical.
> How has been your sexual life? This could be one of the indicators.
> ...


The affair is not currently happening (as far as I know). We are working on our marriage but this latest episode has not helped my trust at all.

She tells me that I'm making all of this up in my head. I literally have no one else to ask about this stuff so I came here. I can't talk to anyone I know because I am just so ashamed.

To answer your question. When the affair was happening there was no sex. Zero. None. During the NC period, sex has been frequent and good.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

This case is so typical of Trickle Truth (TT). She will only admit to what you know. Yes, I would say it's very likely a PA.


OM is local - so there opportunity for it going PA is extremely high
OM has some of her property - indicating that she was probably over at his place. Maybe she left some panties or lingerie there or something
On going EA of four months - EAs are only a prelude to a PA, especially if the OP is local










Not knowing is bad enough. The biggest problem you have right now is that she opened a secret email account and "fished" for renewed contact with OM. It doesn't matter if there were no "love you" or anything like that. The point was to fish for renewed contact and rekindle the affair. 

If you really, really need to know if this is a PA, then you can go thru Dex Knows and look for a polygraph tester in your area since this difference is so important to you. If she refuses, then you have your answer. 

Personally, it wouldn't matter to me, because I would assume it is a PA no matter what she says to me because of the above. The question you should ask yourself is what kind of consequences are you going to enforce to her because of her breaking NC and taking measures to take the affair underground (secret email). She said she was willing to end the marriage over this guy. Time to show her the reality of the situation. Let her go. For the meantime, you've already lost her to this man. Find out if he's married or has a GF. If so, expose this to the OMW. She may actually have more evidence than you.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Alyosha said:


> The affair is not currently happening (as far as I know). We are working on our marriage but this latest episode has not helped my trust at all.


She fished for renewed contact and she created a secret email to take it underground. The affair is still ongoing in her head.



Alyosha said:


> *She tells me that I'm making all of this up in my head*. I literally have no one else to ask about this stuff so I came here. I can't talk to anyone I know because I am just so ashamed.


This is called gas lighting. Look it up. Your WW still refuses to own up to the affair, and any attempt to R will only result in False R if she's not truly remorseful. Take a look at this table. If she's not totally in the left column, she''s not remorseful and there can be no True R.


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## Alyosha (Feb 27, 2012)

lordmayhem said:


> This case is so typical of Trickle Truth (TT). She will only admit to what you know. Yes, I would say it's very likely a PA.
> 
> 
> OM is local - so there opportunity for it going PA is extremely high
> ...


Why do you say I've lost her? She's with me and says that she has had no more contact with him after the secret e-mail.

She says she wants to make the marriage work.

Am I being stupid? Damn, I feel like I'm losing my mind. When I first found out about the (admitted) EA, I couldn't eat or sleep. I lost about 25 pounds and almost got fired from my job.

Now I feel like this is killing me all over again.


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## Alyosha (Feb 27, 2012)

Thanks, Lordmayhem.

That chart is very helpful.

I think I'm screwed. : (


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Alyosha said:


> Why do you say I've lost her? She's with me and says that she has had no more contact with him after the secret e-mail.


Actions, not words. What do her actions show? That OM is STILL in her heart and mind, that she thought to fish for renewed contact even after FIVE MONTHS shows that the affair is still going on in her mind. She misses him. That's hurtful enough. 



Alyosha said:


> She says she wants to make the marriage work.


Remember actions, not words. Creating a secret email account, and then secretly emailing OM to meet up with him? Is that wanting to make the marriage work? 



Alyosha said:


> Am I being stupid? Damn, I feel like I'm losing my mind. When I first found out about the (admitted) EA, I couldn't eat or sleep. I lost about 25 pounds and almost got fired from my job.
> 
> Now I feel like this is killing me all over again.


What have you found out about the OM? Is he married? Does he have a girlfriend? Have you exposed the affair to the Other Man's Wife (OMW) if he has one? This affair needs to end now. 

She needs to know now, that ANY contact will result in immediate divorce. If OM contacts her and she doesn't report it, that's also breaking NC because its a lie of omission.


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## DanF (Sep 27, 2010)

> Although she did admit to visiting his house on one occasion to "see the landscaping."


Right.
I'm sorry that you are in this position, but they are physical.
She is not working on your marriage as long as she is not telling you all the details that you ask for and seeing/contacting him in secret.


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## Alyosha (Feb 27, 2012)

lordmayhem said:


> Actions, not words. What do her actions show? That OM is STILL in her heart and mind, that she thought to fish for renewed contact even after FIVE MONTHS shows that the affair is still going on in her mind. She misses him. That's hurtful enough.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



OM is divorced. He may have a girlfriend.

"Stop ****ing spying on me." What she said a few days after I confronted her about the secret e-mail account most definitely are not the words of a remorseful person.

I thought we were through the worst part. ****.....


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Alyosha said:


> OM is divorced. He may have a girlfriend.
> 
> "Stop ****ing spying on me." What she said a few days after I confronted her about the secret e-mail account most definitely are not the words of a remorseful person.
> 
> I thought we were through the worst part. ****.....


I'm so sorry that you're in False R. If she was truly remorseful, she would be willingly and happy that you're checking on her so that she can say "See? I'm not doing anything!". She would want to re-build the trust with you that she destroyed. Instead, you get the anger and telling you to stop spying on her.

It's time for consequences, otherwise, she's in rug sweeping mode, and just waiting for the dust to die down so she can resume the affair with OM, or get into another one. She shows no remorse, nor is she empathetic to your feelings. She says she wants to work on the marriage but doesn't want to rebuild trust with you? Without trust, what is left? And she certainly doesn't care if you don't trust her.

R is hard enough when your partner is 100% committed to making it work, how much more difficult is it when your WS doesn't want to even be transparent?


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## kenmoore14217 (Apr 8, 2010)

In my opinion Alyosha you need to get your affairs in order pronto! You need to consult an attorney, separate finances and file for divorce. You know enough already to make an informed decision so there should be no more need to spy on her. 

Let her know through your actions that you are ready and more than willing to move on.

Shake the tree and see what falls out.

Good luck


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## bryanp (Aug 25, 2011)

No woman would be willing to leave her husband of 10 years and her 4 children if the the affair had not become physical. For her telling you it was only an emotional affair for 4 months is an insult to your intelligence. She clearly is playing you for a fool. 
1. Get tested for STD's.
2. See a lawyer.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Listen to Lord Mayhem. he said everything I was going to say, but way better 

Sorry you're dealing with this, OP....some spouses just don't deserve a good marriage (not you, but your wife).


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Alyosha said:


> Why do you say I've lost her? She's with me and says that she has had no more contact with him after the secret e-mail.
> 
> She says she wants to make the marriage work.
> 
> ...


Ah, the break up diet.

Yes. Use that to your advantage. Start lifting weights to tone and release anger. Seriously. You may be screwed, but you can at least look good.

I feel sorry for your children  And trust me when I say that she is in this fog of the affair. She is truly in some weird land where reality has no ground. I feel so bad for you...but you are not alone. Just get your shet in order and start the 180.

Someone has the link for the 180...


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Yeah, you need the 180.

IMO the chances it wasn't physical are about 0.00000000001%

She isn't remorseful at ALL.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Here you go my friend.

Work it!

The Healing Heart: The 180


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## Kallan Pavithran (Jan 17, 2012)

Alyosha said:


> Why do you say I've lost her? She's with me and says that she has had no more contact with him after the secret e-mail. You lost her when she statred her PA. she is only physically with you, mentally she is gone. dont create darkness by simply shutting your eyes.
> 
> She says she wants to make the marriage work. Good to hear that, but Is she working on your marriage by taking her affair underground? If you didnt find her secret email what would have been going on between them now on your back? making you to belive evrything is fine.
> 
> ...


Your wife have no intention of R with you she is only waiting for the right time. Why you want to be with a lady who is not committed to you, who is not in love with you, who have zero respect for you, who have no respect for her children and family.
Why you want to be with a women who is ready to abandon her four innocent loving children, marriage of 10 yrs and her husband for some FU*K.

Let she go, serve her with a D, asap. expose her to the world why you want to be a doormat and meal ticket for her. show some self respect and dignity. dont allow her to manipulate you with her BS.
Take care of your self, do 180 (not for getting her back, but for your betterment)

Let her go...........


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

Alyosha said:


> Why do you say I've lost her?


Because this is how she sees working on her marriage to you:



Alyosha said:


> being in hell for months


Do the 180. Expose her affair. See also: No More Mister Nice Guy.

I wonder about the advice of your MC that counseling has been so ineffective. Is your MC helping your wife to rug-sweep? Is s/he focused a lot on what you can do to make your wife feel better in the marriage?


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

"To see the landscape" What was she gonna do? mow his lawn? 

:rofl:

That's like when I told my mom i fell asleep on my bf's couch watching a movie (in college). Yea. We were "watching a movie"


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

"to see the landscaping" - damn - she gets an "F" for creativity.

I'm with everyone else - just adding a +1 to the advice you've been given so far.

Sorry you're here.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

If she were truly remorseful and wanting to rebuild your trust, she would be doing the following:

*#1 Stop lying or making excuses for your actions.* If the victim spouse presents evidence of the affair, own up to it. You need to understand that the worst thing that could happen has already occurred. You were dishonest and unfaithful. Therefore, continuing to lie, twist, or deny is simply adding insult to injury. If you are looking your spouse in the eye and claiming to want the marriage to work then you cannot continue to lie about various odds and ends. You have been lying to your spouse for the entire duration of the affair; therefore, if you continue to lie now, it sets the reconciliation process way back. ''The victim spouse likely knows the answers to the questions they are asking, or can usually find out, so if you are interested in rebuilding trust in the relationship, '''STOP LYING'''.'' If your spouse discovers later - either on purpose or by accident - that you have lied about or left out salient details, they will likely never trust you again. Your only hope of regaining their trust is to give them the truth wholesale, and thus demonstrate your commitment to being honest with them, even about things that might hurt them. You are kidding yourself if you think you are protecting your spouse by "omitting" certain truths. If you had wanted to protect your spouse, you never would have allowed them to get hurt in the first place.

*#2 Be around*. While emotional availability in the days, weeks, and even months following the discovery of your affair is of the '''utmost importance''', keep in mind that ''you can only be emotionally available when you're around.'' Understand that, left alone, your spouse's thoughts will begin to eat away at them - they will have questions you are not there to answer, torment themselves with images you cannot dispel, and invent suspicions your absence will only worsen. ''Paranoia is only natural during this time''; in fact, it can hardly be called paranoia, as '''they are right to mistrust you - you have betrayed them deeply'''. Being around to answer their questions and soothe their thoughts will keep them from building up and causing future explosions down the road. If it is possible, this may be a good time to take some time away from your normal "alone" activities to spend with your spouse. If you can't be with them physically, keep your phone on whenever possible to answer their calls, and allow them as much access to you as they need. Depending on your spouse's temperament, you may need to respect their desire for time alone, but you need to keep ''yourself'' available to ''them.''

*#3 DO NOT get defensive or assign blame.* This is not the time to employ the old adage of “the best defense is a good offense.” This is the time to be contrite/regretful, remorseful, empathetic, compassionate, honest, and emotionally available. Do not say anything which will give the impression that the victim spouse drove you to cheat, or in any way contributed to your behavior. There will be plenty of time to pass the blame around later on during counseling sessions, or during times of productive conversation with your mate. Additionally, DO NOT waste time blaming the affair on anyone or anything else. DO NOT point the finger toward temptation, being under the influence or falling prey to a stalker or that he/she was someone that you came in contact with at work or via a friend. '''You should have no room for excuses anymore.''' Telling your spouse you did not realize what was happening is not only bogus, it devalues the victim spouse. The victim spouse will see right through these excuses and will view this as another attempt to keep them in the dark while you continue playing them for a fool. The best way to effectively deal with your spouse's anger, and start the process of rebuilding trust, is to ''take complete and full ownership of your own selfishness, immaturity, or basic destructive marital behavior.'' '''Remind yourself that it is quite possible that the victim spouse was enduring similar feelings of unhappiness or frustration, but instead made a conscious decision not to betray you.''

*#4 Treat your spouse as if they are the very center of your world.* While you should do this anyway, it is of ''monumental importance'' that you focus on this IMMEDIATELY following the discovery of the affair. This is a critical time in the recovery of your relationship; '''dedicate yourself to it.''' Being cheated on will make your spouse feel rejected, unimportant, and decidedly less than "special." Regardless of your reasons or given situation, your spouse will be under the rightful impression that you have chosen someone over them, which is a difficult thing for them to face after years of thinking they were the most important person in your life.'This is especially true if you were involved in a long term relationship.'Giving your spouse your full attention during this time will help them to regain the feelings of importance in your life, and will go a long way towards convincing them that you are unlikely to choose somebody over them again.'' If you can, also show and tell to other people and the world even more how much you care or love your spouse in order to help the victim spouse overcome all the humiliation and hurt this burden may have caused.

*#5 CUT any and ALL possible ties with the other man/woman.* Keeping a person in your life with whom you have had an affair is like trying to put toothpaste back into the tube. Not only is this a confusing message to the other person, ''it is also EXTREMELY DISRESPECTFUL to your spouse.'' It does not matter if you have known this other man/woman since kindergarten, or have to see this person at work. It is time to break those ties. '''Do what you must to avoid any contact.''' Convincing yourself that you need to talk to them to 'break it off' only communicates that their feelings, not your spouse's, are what you are most concerned about. Once you have allowed another individual to permeate, invade or undermine your marital union, there is no place for this person in your life. ''You simply cannot expect your victim spouse to move past the affair as long as you continue communicating with, seeing, or having any type of relationship with this other man/woman.'' '''It is in fact an insult''' to the intelligence of your current spouse for you to say that you can maintain a professional, platonic, or otherwise innocent relationship with this ''destructive individual''. Furthermore, '''because this person had an affair with a married man/woman, most likely they have absolutely NO RESPECT for your marriage.''' Continuing to work with, hang out with, email or chat with this person is probably the single worst possible thing to do if you are wanting to repair your marriage.

*#6 Your life MUST be an open book.* ''You no longer have the '''luxury''' of coming and going as you please.'' Once you have ''abused'' that privilege, ''it takes a while and a whole lot of effort to get it back.'' Therefore, if you will be late coming home from work, or have had a change in plans, inform your spouse. Every time you leave the house your spouse is now wondering if you are going where you say you are going. The best way to ease their insecurities is to check in throughout the day. Invite your spouse places you usually go alone like to the game, the gym or the mall. Let your spouse know that you have nothing to hide. Additionally, do not hide your cell phone or set the ringer on silent. If your spouse requests, give them your email and voice mail pass codes. In fact, if you have nothing to hide then offer your spouse the codes without them having to ask. Don't lock your cell phone, call log or address book. Offer to let your spouse see your phone bills, and keep the credit card or bank statements in plain view on the kitchen table. ''Although your spouse may never choose to check these things, the simple fact that you made them available for his/her perusal will be a HUGE step in regaining their trust.'' Although you may feel as though some of these are a violation of your privacy, you need to know that these steps are absolutely NECESSARY if you are trying to rebuild trust. Saying that you are on the straight and narrow while continuing to hide your cell phone or spending is counterproductive to your stated goal of wanting to rebuild your marriage.

*#7 Be prepared to answer any and all questions about information that your spouse has a legitimate right to know.* Your spouse is going to want lots of details and ask questions about things you may not want to answer, but too bad. Your spouse is going to cross reference your prior stories and ask you to confirm if “this” or “that” was a lie. You simply need to fess up. ''The worse thing you can do is to conceal information because you don't want to hurt your spouse.'' Remember, they have already been '''hurt beyond belief''', so continuing to withhold additional information gives the appearance of an attempt to continue the ''deception''. Your spouse needs to get a general understanding of how intense the relationship was, and how long it lasted. Although this may be one of the most difficult steps in the process, it is one of the most important. It is extremely difficult for a betrayed spouse to know that there is another man/woman in the world who has more information about their marriage then themselves. That there are people that know about that relationship and may be talking about your marriage. Therefore, asking multiple questions helps the betrayed spouse get up to speed, thus obtaining necessary information to deal with feelings of being in the dark while their spouse was gallivanting or mooching around with their lover/relationship.

*#8 '''Do not ever''' attempt to dictate the length of time the victim spouses recovery should take.* You are the one who brought the outsider into the marriage, and therefore, '''you are in no position to dictate when the victim spouse should be “over it”.''' The truth of the matter is, the victim spouse will never fully be “over it”, but may simply learn how to mentally move past the affair. When a person is hurting, they typically share their pain with the closest person to them. As their spouse, you are the one they will vent to, even though it is you that caused the pain. Additionally, you may feel as though since you've confessed, apologized and vowed to remain faithful, things should now return to normal. That is simply NOT the case. '''One of the worst things that can happen is for the adulterous spouse to begin acting as though its “business as usual”.''' Deciding to remain in a relationship after your spouse has cheated is a '''Major decision''' and one which can be both '''very humiliating and enormously stressful.''' ''DO NOT downplay the GREAT MAGNITUDE of that decision by behaving as though nothing happened.'' '''For the next few years''', the adulterous spouse '''needs''' to periodically wrap their arms around their mate, kiss them, and THANK them for another chance. Additionally, 'acknowledge' how much you hurt your spouse, how difficult it must be for them to get over the pain, and '''vow to do whatever necessary to make things better…forever.''' Although it may seem as though such actions will revive the pain, that is simply not the case. ''Acknowledging the degree of pain you put your spouse through, and expressing appreciation for another chance'', gives the victim spouse the impression that you not only are mindful of their pain, but that as long as you are aware of their struggle to overcome the ordeal, you will be less likely to make such awful choices again in the future.

*#9 Choose your battles wisely.* Keep in mind that now is not necessarily the time to pick fights over certain topics, particularly those related to privacy and possessiveness. Your spouse is feeling betrayed and frightened; it is only natural for them in this state to project those fears onto situations that bear (in their mind) any resemblance to your affair. If a random stranger flirts with you, or buys you a drink at a bar, and your spouse becomes agitated, remember that your spouse has an '''understandable right''' to this possessiveness; you have shaken their feelings of security in the relationship, and it is openness and understanding that will gain this back, not combativeness and arguments. ''Rather than angrily asserting your rights, you will do much better to gain their trust by assuring them of their importance to you and soothing their bruised ego and wounded heart with compliments and understanding.''

*#10 '''Do not''' behave inappropriately or create future problems.* Don't put yourself in situations which will cause your victim spouse undue stress. Putting your friends before your spouse, joining singles website, spending time with friends of opposite sex, or available singles, and forming relationships with them, is certainly not wise. Even with work relationships keep the conversations to a minimum, remember that this is how relationships begin or cross messages are sent. ''It is extremely selfish and disrespectful to your spouse.'' Additionally, make your spouse aware when you anticipate coming into contact with the other man/woman. If you suspect the other man/woman might be at the holiday party, let your spouse know in advance. Also, if you run into, or have contact with, the other man/woman unexpectedly, let your spouse know as soon as possible. Nothing is worse than finding out about contact with the other man/woman that the victim spouse did not know about. It gives the impression of further secrecy and deception. Trust me, it won't hurt your spouse to know the other man/woman is contacting you as much as it will hurt them to discover you hid that information. ''Believe me, during this time of broken trust, full disclosure is always the best route.''

*#11 Use this '''opportunity''' to create a new relationship with your spouse.* Be open to opportunities to bring each other closer together. Remember that your spouse now views your relationship as broken, and they're right to think so. The key, then, is to forge a new relationship in as many ways as possible. '' Finding new places to spend time and share activities together will help this.'' Make sure that he or she and everyone around you (i.e.family, friends, children) can see that your spouse means the world to you and is NOW being put first in your life. '''Speak highly of your spouse in a genuine way, being careful to protect their reputation when you speak to others'''--talking badly about them behind their backs is ''not only a BIG MISTAKE but also BAD BEHAVIOR'' (it may also reflect badly on you as their spouse). You and your spouse (and your children) are one family that must always protect, support, and lift each other up all the time especially from strangers and NOT the other way around. This may even be an opportunity, in the fullness of time and once the recovery process is very well on its way, to renew your wedding vows. Help your partner to see that you have created something new, stronger, and therefore not threatened by the sins of your past or the likelihood of future infidelities.


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## AngryandUsed (Jun 23, 2011)

Thats a great post Mori


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

#8 kills me when I read about cheaters who want their spouse to just "get over it" or think it's been "long enough".

SOME NERVE! Jerks.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

AngryandUsed said:


> Thats a great post Mori


To paraphrase 60's radical Abbie Hoffman's book title *"Steal This Post"*


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## CH (May 18, 2010)

She's trying to rug sweep and she's still has feelings for the OM.

She came back to you only because the OM only wants a F-buddy to have fun with. But she's still keeping him as an option just in case.

Welcome to being the 2nd place chump right now. Feels good coming in 2nd place doesn't it? You want her to really change, tell her you're putting through with a divorce unless she commits and gives you the truth. She lies, you walk.

If you can't walk away from the marriage then you've already lost and might as well just stay for the kids and build up a lifetime of resentment for wasting your life with a person who doesn't respect you at all.

To win, you've got to risk losing everything. My wife did that. She cried, begged, cried more and begged more and it never worked. In fact is just made me more upset because she was so pathetic. When she finally came out and told me to pack my crap up and move on because she's done with me, then it finally dawned on me that I was gonna lose her forever.

That in turn made me look at my life and weigh the consequences of what I was gonna do by leaving my wife for the OW.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

It's very likely it went physical. Especially if she was using the L word (love) and told you her heart was completely his and was about to leave you for him. This is much more than a one-off, one night stand, cheap thrill. It's emotional. Deeply emotional. I've always thought an EA is really bad. Once you throw some sex in there, it's a molotov ****tail. 

Her "landscaping" and "doodle" excuse is laughable. (And a pretty bad excuse/lie).

She broke No Contact. I imagine you had some boundaries/consequences for her breaking no contact. Now is the time to enforce them.

Nobody tells someone they want to meet with them to tell them they don't want them in their life anymore--especially if they've not had contact for 5 months.

She is still in love with him, I am afraid. 

I am sorry.

If he didn't respond to her or make any contact, it seems he's moved on and this may be an unrequited thing. Nonetheless, it sucks.

What do you want to do?


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

cheatinghubby said:


> To win, you've got to risk losing everything. My wife did that. She cried, begged, cried more and begged more and it never worked. In fact is just made me more upset because she was so pathetic. When she finally came out and told me to pack my crap up and move on because she's done with me, then it finally dawned on me that I was gonna lose her forever.


Excellent post. And this is why it's so important to JUST LET THEM GO.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Look it no doubt went physical.

Have her take a polygraph.

The questions:

Did you have sex with him

Was it more than once

Is the affair still active

Are you still seeking contact with him

Do you want him to start the affair again

Have you spoken to him in the last month

Would you sleep with hm again

Do you want to sleep with him
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Speaking of "Just Let Them Go":

_*Just Let Them Go*

The end result?

The end result is to respect yourself in the end,
let go of the people that don't value you or respect you.

That is the end result.

The quickest way to get a cheating spouse back is to let them go with a smile on your face wishing them the best in life and hoping that everything works out in their relationship with their affair partner.

Seriously, the quickest way to get them back.

Nothing else works better or quicker.

Let them go.

Agree with them and their feelings,
"you should be with the OM, I hope he makes you happy, good bye"

Wouldn't that be true love?

If you really loved your spouse,
and wanted them to have what they really want in life which is the other person they're in love with,
wouldn't letting them go be the approach if you really love them?

Why focus on the affair or the drama associated with it?
Just let them go. Give them their freedom.

You can take a good hard look at yourself in the mirror everyday and improve yourself but do it for you, not for someone else, the changes will never stick when it's done for someone else, do it for your benefit and you will probably make those changes last much longer if not indefinitely - because it's for your benefit and you realize the importance and value in that benefit because YOU are involved.

I will never tell someone to change to entice a WAW back when she's been cheating on him. I don't care how bad a marriage, there is never an excuse for cheating. That is a personal decision that someone makes to cheat on their spouse. If a marriage is really bad, leave, get a divorce, speak up to your spouse and tell them flat out "this marriage sucks and if things don't change I'm going to leave you and find someone better" and if things don't improve, leave that person.

But cheating, no excuses.

Think about cheating.
A wayward spouse who cheats on their spouse goes behind their back, secretly, telling lies, feeling guilty, getting angry at their spouse for getting in the way of their fantasies but never owning up to their actions, never admitting what they're doing. If a person who cheats on their spouse felt justified in their actions, why hide and go behind their spouses backs when they start cheating, why lie, why make up excuses about late nights at work and going to a friends place and sleeping over because they drank too much and any other such nonsense?

Deep down, the cheating spouse knows there is something inherently wrong with their actions otherwise they wouldn't lie about their actions and hide what they're doing.

Fighting the affair? For what reason?
To compete with the OM or OW for your spouse?
What message does that communicate to your wayward spouse?
They have lots of value and you have none because now you have to compete with another person for their love? Competing with your wayward spouse's affair partner never works, it just prolongs an ugly drama filled process.

And for your last point,
The easiest way to show you will not tolerate cheating in your relationship is to let that person go. That is the easiest and most effective way to show this.

"Look wife/husband, I won't be in an open relationship with you, I won't give you X number of days, weeks, months to make your mind, if you really feel like you need to sit on the fence on this decision and can't decide between your affair partner and me well I will make the decision for you, you can be with them because I'm no longer an option. I love you and wish you a good life with them and hope it works out for you because it didn't work out for us. Now the best thing we can do for each other is to make this process as graceful and peaceful as possible for us and our children, I'll contact a lawyer/mediator and get started on the process of our legal separation/divorce."

You give them what they want.
You don't fight them on this issue.
You agree with their feelings,
they want to be with the other person, fine they should be with the other person, let them be with the other person.

You will never convince a person to change their feelings with your arguments and logic. You can not find one member on this website in a situation where they are dealing with infidelity where they got their spouse to change their mind about how they feel about their affair partner.

You can't say "don't love them, love me instead",
you can't say "look at me, I'm better in every way compared to your affair partner, pick me instead of them",
you can't say "you took marriage vows, you promised to love me"

I agree, you don't have to make it easy for your wayward spouse to have an affair, but when you let them go, "lovingly detach", you don't have to worry about making it easy for them. It's no longer your concern, they can have you or them but not both and not at the same time and since they've chosen to have an affair, they've made their choice, there is no profit in fighting that decision. Let them go and move on with your life, that is the quickest, easiest way to get them back.

You definitely don't support them financially and enable them, that would be weak, wussy, clingy, insecure behavior - something in you telling you that you need to support them financially while they're having an affair, hoping they'll realize how nice you are and come back to you.

Just let them go, have them move out or you move out and live a good life without them._


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

^^ Classic post & one of the best on TAM.

::High-fives Mori::


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

::High-fives Jelly::


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## StrangerThanFiction (Jul 19, 2011)

Alyosha said:


> Although she did admit to visiting his house on one occasion to "see the landscaping."


to "see the manscaping" might be more like it.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I want a high 5! gawd.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

::High fives my girl TG::



StrangerThanFiction said:


> to "see the manscaping" might be more like it.


I was waiting for someone to make a "Landscaping" joke. I was originally going to post "I think 'landscaping' is a pseudonym for sex."


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I remember the night Hubs left (no OW) and I didn't beg or plead...I just said, "Ok, if this is what you need to do, then I support it."

The look on his face was priceless. I think that was the MOMENT that turned it back into something good even though we had to go through some shet along the way. 

i was worried about him, worried about us, wasn't aware of MY issues at that moment, but...I knew if I dind't let him go, he'd run further and faster than he already was.


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## Alyosha (Feb 27, 2012)

Thanks to everyone who posted (except those making landscaping jokes -- f' you guys).

Deep down I guess I knew the answers most of you have given me, I just wanted there to be some kind of hope that there might have been different answers.

It's so strange. When I consider by myself whether it makes sense to create a secret e-mail account and arrange a secret meeting in order to tell someone that you don't want them in your life anymore, I always say "Hell no. That makes no sense at all."

But I swear, when I tell her the same thing ("that makes no sense") she has this way of turning it around to make me question whether I am acting paranoid and making all of this up in my head. She has even told me that she is "not going to admit to doing something she didn't do just to just to make me feel better about the things I've conjured up in my own head."

Same thing with confronting her about intending to leave a marriage of10 years and four kids over a guy that she hadn't so much as kissed. She just says "Well, I didn't leave." and expects me to just accept what she says at face value.

When I asked her about what he still has of yours, I can feel in my gut that she would rather do anything in the world than tell me the answer to that question. Her response is ridiculous and I'm glad others have confirmed that I am not a "paranoid *******" for thinking so.

She tells me she loves me. I want to believe it but deep down my gut won't let me forget about these things.

I want more than anything to save this marriage for my own sake and the sake of my kids but you just can't have an intimate and meaningful relationship with someone who doesn't trust you enough to tell you the truth.

If I file for D, she is going to tell everyone that I am crazy and I have no real proof otherwise other than my suspicion. This is terrible.


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## bryanp (Aug 25, 2011)

You know she is lying.
1. Get Tested for STD's.
2. Demand a polygraph as a deal breaker if she says no.
3. See a lawyer


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

She is doing ALLL the things cheaters do.

Blame shifting, making you question your sanity, etc.

And don't be so rude to the people making jokes. your wife said it. Tell her to f off.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Alyosha said:


> If I file for D, she is going to tell everyone that I am crazy and I have no real proof otherwise other than my suspicion.


 You do not need to prove anything more to file for divorce. You can prove enough already. 

You just need to tell them that she admitted to an EA. Admitted to going to his house, but claims no sex. Promised to cut off all contact. Broke that promise and setup a secret email account to continue contact with the OM. And finally scheduled a secret meeting with the OM. Tell them that based in this you have no choice but to file for divorce, because you do not want to live the rest of your life in a marraige where there is anther man and where you cannot trust your wife. Trust me, no one will call you crazy.

She is trying to gaslight you into thinking that you are crazy. According to Wiki gaslighting is when “information is presented with the intent of making a victim doubt his or her own memory or perception”. It comes from a play later made into a movie where the husband manipulated his wife in this way. Trust yourself. You are not crazy and nobody but your wife will think so when presented with just the facts that you already know for sure.


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## Alyosha (Feb 27, 2012)

TRy said:


> You do not need to prove anything more to file for divorce. You can prove enough already.
> 
> You just need to tell them that she admitted to an EA. Admitted to going to his house, but claims no sex. Promised to cut off all contact. Broke that promise and setup a secret email account to continue contact with the OM. And finally scheduled a secret meeting with the OM. Tell them that based in this you have no choice but to file for divorce, because you do not want to live the rest of your life in a marraige where there is anther man and where you cannot trust your wife. Trust me, no one will call you crazy.
> 
> She is trying to gaslight you into thinking that you are crazy. According to Wiki gaslighting is when “information is presented with the intent of making a victim doubt his or her own memory or perception”. It comes from a play later made into a movie where the husband manipulated his wife in this way. Trust yourself. You are not crazy and nobody but your wife will think so when presented with just the facts that you already know for sure.


Thanks, TRy.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Alyosha said:


> The affair is not currently happening (as far as I know). We are working on our marriage but this latest episode has not helped my trust at all.
> 
> *She tells me that I'm making all of this up in my head. * I literally have no one else to ask about this stuff so I came here. I can't talk to anyone I know because I am just so ashamed.
> 
> To answer your question. When the affair was happening there was no sex. Zero. None. During the NC period, sex has been frequent and good.


This is called gaslighting.

She may or may not have had sex with him. But the key is that if she did not she was planning to and was choosing him over you. 

Please tell me you did not agree for them to meet again. That totally invalidates going NC. Her withdrawal is not complete. Her commitment is not complete. She is willing to go underground. In facy if they met in the store and a message like this was passed where she is willing to eet him, she is back into again.



> Although she did admit to visiting his house on one occasion to "see the landscaping."


I missed this. Yes it went physical and it is called manscaping.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

morituri said:


> To paraphrase 60's radical Abbie Hoffman's book title *"Steal This Post"*


I actually bought my copy at the Angela Davis Book Store .... Steal This Book that is.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Why did the affair end? Did he end it or did she?


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## CH (May 18, 2010)

chapparal said:


> Why did the affair end? Did he end it or did she?


I don't think it ended yet.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Aly--listen very carefully:

Tell her it's you or him. Non-negotiable.

"Wife, you betrayed my trust by having an affair with OM. You went as far as saying the "love" word and going to his house behind my back, telling me to my face you were going to up and leave your life/family/marriage to be with him. Then you agreed to no contact and you broke it, once again, breaking my trust after the fact. I will not live in an open marriage. I refuse to play second best. If you want out, you know where the door is. But I deserve better this, better than what you are giving me. And I am not going to accept crumbs and a relationship where my wife is direspecting me and lying to me and cheating on me."

Then walk away. Let the chips fall where they may. YOu have GOT to lose the fear of losing her. Do not beg/plead/try to convince her to stay.

SHE f-cked up. SHE needs to do the heavy lifting the fix it. DO NOT bend, do NOT negotiate, do NOT DO NOT DO NOT waiver from this stance.

The only thing that works with cheaters is HARD HARD HARD BLACK AND WHIT ECONSEQUENCES.

If you can't set a boundary and follow through with consequences, you are in for one long, wicked ride, my friend. 

You are worth more and deserve better and don't you forget it.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

^^^^^^ word. the.eff. up.


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## Alyosha (Feb 27, 2012)

chapparal said:


> Why did the affair end? Did he end it or did she?


I don't know that there was a declared official end. No NC letter was sent or anything. She just cut off all contact with him..... until he handed here a note in the grocery store parking lot and she set up the secret e-mail account and invited him to meet her.

She didn't meet him because I confronted her before she could, and she says she hasn't had contact with him for months and months.

Who the hell knows at this point?


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

that_girl said:


> ^^^^^^ word. the.eff. up.


Word. The. Eff. Up.

Love that.


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## hisfac (Feb 10, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> Aly--listen very carefully:
> 
> Tell her it's you or him. Non-negotiable.
> 
> ...


This is very good.

I see so many threads where the person who has been cheated on has this huge fear of losing the one person who has caused them complete devastation and I just don't understand why.. well I do, it's because of FEAR.

But even if we know why, the fact is, if you don't "man up" or "woman up" and give them an ultimatum and stick by it, then all you are doing is enabling the cheating behavior and forgiving without any consequence to them at all.

I'll reiterate what Jellybeans posted above.

You MUST lose the fear or at least deal with it so you are not afraid to walk away. Otherwise, you're applying bandaids to a hemorrhaging artery, you're going to bleed to death even though you've seemingly repaired some of the superficial damage. It's like you've dealt with the immediate battle (by shoveling it under the rug) but you're guaranteed to lose the war.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

There are several ways they could have stayed in touch. Secret phone etc. However, since she set up a secret email I think its likely they haven't been in contact as she thought you were monitoring your phone.

You need to make it clear to her you are on the verge of divorcing her(and mean it). You may even have to go ahead and file. I really believe if you put enough real pressure on her she will commit to a real reconcilliation.

One good way to get the message across is to download your states divorce package and print it off. Start filling out the info and make sure she accidently sees it. You may have to pick the packet up at the county courthouse.

At least at this point, unless the OM dumped her which I doubt, you still have a good chance of keeping your familly together.
Your not going to do it be being a nice guy so start reading here.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18181-man-up-nice-guy-reference.html

And here;

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/32002-welcome-tam-cwi-newbies-please-read-3.html

Here too:

Married Man Sex Life

And buy the book

I disagree with some of the posters. I think she picked you. But now she has to do the work to save her family.

Print off Mori's list on page 2 and read it with her.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Here is another tool to use. Print this off and study it with her. It explains what you have been going through and if it doesn't touch her heart she may be unreachable. Good luck and I'm sorry for the long length. 

Understanding Your Betrayed Spouse - A quick reference manual for unfaithful partners.

The Sea of Stress is Difficult to Understand.

YOU BETRAYED YOUR PARTNER. NOW COMES THE FALLOUT.

They discovered your adultery. You ended the affair and promised you’ll never cheat again. But the stress from their emotional devastation lingers. And you don’t see much change – at least, not as much positive change as you expected. Many times, any visible changes are for the worse. You observe them bouncing back and forth like a ping-pong ball, moment to moment, from one emotion to the next. They’re unpredictable. There’s no discernable pattern. Their nerves are frayed. They can’t sleep. They can’t eat. Their thoughts are obsessive. Intrusive visions and flashbacks assault them without warning. They cry at the drop of a hat. They feel empty, used up, exhausted. The stress consumes their energy and their life until they feel like there’s nothing left. It’s terrible.

It’s an ordeal for you to witness their tortured, depressed and angry states, and what’s worse; you don’t know what to do. You’re not alone. Unfaithful spouses never dream they’ll get busted, so when confronted with their adultery they’re always caught by surprise; first by their partners’ knowledge, then by their intense agony. Indeed, unfaithful partners never think about what they’ll face “after” until after. The fact is: Though they inflict it, adulterers are unprepared for the onslaught of their spouses’ overwhelming emotional distress. Is this real? Is this permanent?

As you watch them sink lower and lower, wallowing in an emotional abyss, you wonder where the bottom is, when they will hit it, and if they will ever ascend from it and return to “normal.” You ask yourself, “Is this real?” Then you ask, “Will this ever end?”

The simple answers are: Yes, it is real. And, yes, it will end. But recovery takes a long time, often years, and much depends on you. Can you be remorseful, apologetic, loving, patient, empathetic and soothing over an extended period of time? Can you commit to openness and honesty at all times – and forevermore being faithful to your spouse?

Be honest with yourself: If you can’t or don’t want to get over your affair, if you don’t feel shame and remorse, and if you can’t generously provide appropriate support to your spouse, then now is the time to consider ending your marriage and spare your marital partner further pain. (If this is the case, you need not read any further.)

But if you have put the affair permanently behind you, if you feel and can freely express your remorse and shame for your unfaithfulness, and if you can commit to supporting your spouse through their excruciating anguish, then you have an excellent chance of rebuilding from this disaster you’ve wrought to a happy, satisfying, caring and loving marriage. The following is intended to help you help your partner, and in turn yourself, through this horrible time and jumpstart your journey to recovery.

So, take a couple of deep breaths… and let’s start with three foundational facts:

What you’re seeing in your spouse is a normal reaction to a life-changing event.

Your spouse needs to grieve for as long as it takes in order to recover and heal.

You can be a positive influence on their recovery.

Now, go back and reread them several times. Let them really sink in. When you can repeat them without looking, continue.

Your first mission is to learn.

Learning about your partner’s myriad reactions to your betrayal allows you to recognize, understand and properly respond to them as they occur. Doing so will help you get through
this horrible initial stage, which can last a long time.
Below you’ll find a little of what your spouse is probably experiencing. They may shift from one reaction to another, or they could experience multiple reactions concurrently. And don’t be surprised if they return to previous states many times. Where applicable, we’ve added some tips to help you to assist your partner through this. In some cases, however, there may be little for you to do except to simply “be there.”

Most importantly, remember at all times: Your infidelity has traumatized your spouse. Act accordingly.

SECTION 1 - THE WILD PATCHWORK OF EMOTIONS

DISBELIEF: They expect to wake up any minute from this nightmare. It can’t be true. They don’t believe it. This is natural. They trusted you and don’t want to believe you did what you did. It is common for this to occur in the very first moments of discovery. (Note: If some time elapsed between the discovery of your affair and the confrontation, you may have missed this when it happened, but it is also possible for your spouse to return to disbelief.)

SHOCK: They are numb and often seem dazed. Their emotions are frozen. Their senses are dulled. They go through the motions mechanically, robotically, but can’t seem to apply sufficient concentration to their day-to-day lives.

REALITY: “Oh my God. It really happened.” They feel they’re getting worse. Actually, reality has just set in. It’s as if a ton of bricks just fell on them and they’re buried beneath them. They don’t know where to turn, or can’t. Don’t discount the likelihood that they feel shamed by your infidelity. So, they may be reluctant to seek support from friends and family. Be available to them for emotional support and encourage them to talk freely with anyone they choose. Suggest therapy as a means to help them through their trauma, but never accuse them of “being irrational” or “acting crazy.” Be supportive and encouraging. Commend them for seeking help.

CONFUSION: They’re disoriented. They can’t think straight. They become impatient, disorganized and forgetful. More frequently than usual they go to a room to retrieve something, but once they get there they can’t remember what it was. This is very upsetting to them. Bear with them. Be gentle and be helpful. Help them find their misplaced purse or locate their lost keys. Know that they will eventually come out of the fog. Also be aware that their confusion, as with other states listed here, may be set off or magnified by certain “triggers.” (Note: Read more about “triggers” below.)

PHYSICAL SYMPTOMS: They may sleep or eat too little – or too much. They may suffer physical aches and pains, numbness or weakness. They may feel unusually tense and develop headaches, abnormal tics, twitching or shaking. They may feel sick to their stomach and vomit, or their digestive system may react with constipation or diarrhea. Weight loss is common. Usually the symptoms fade gradually. If these symptoms persist, make sure they check with a doctor to rule out other causes. Encourage them to eat well and to exercise – but don’t nag. You might instead take control of their diet by preparing healthy, well balanced meals. If you don’t cook, take them to restaurants where you know they serve nourishing food and, if necessary, order for them. If they’re not exercising, initiate taking long walks together. It’s a good way to ease them into a healthy exercise regimen, which is always a good stress reliever, and will provide opportunity for you to begin constructively re-establishing your “couplehood.”

CRYING: Deep emotions suddenly well up, seeking release as crying, uncontrollable sobbing and even screaming out loud. Allow them their time for tears. They can help. So can you. When they cry, give them your shoulder. Hug them. Help them through it by gently encouraging them, to “get it all out.” Be certain to verbalize your remorse for causing their pain. They need to hear this from you. (Note: Right now, genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit. That is why you’ll see many more references below. Read “Apologize” in Section 2.)

SELF-CONTROL: They control their emotions to fulfill their responsibilities, or to simply rest from the pain. Self-control can shape and give rhythm to their grieving, but be on the lookout for constant and rigid self-control. It can block healing. They need to reduce their emotional pressure to regain equilibrium. Allow them to vent when it happens. Be aware: Too much self-control means they are storing up much anger and will release it powerfully, like floodwaters breaking through a dam. So don’t be alarmed if they suddenly lash out at you, your affair partner, or even themselves. Understand that the release of anger is necessary to heal. Though it may not feel this way to you when it happens, it’s beneficial.

NEED TO KNOW: They will ask lots of questions. Their curiosity may be insatiable or it may be limited. Different people have different needs and tolerances for information, but they need information to process their trauma, move through it, and move past it.

Let them set the agenda. Whenever they ask a question, whatever they ask, answer honestly and sufficiently. Refusing to answer gives the appearance that you’re still keeping them in the dark, that you still have something to hide. Do not hold anything back. If they discover later that you omitted or hid details, or if the facts they discover don’t match the story you tell, they’ll feel betrayed once again. Follow the delivery of each new piece of hurtful information with an apology, and soothe them with another promise that you’ll never again be unfaithful.

WHY: They ask, “Why did you do this?” They may or may not expect an answer, but they ask repeatedly. If they do want an answer, provide it – and answer honestly. Even if the question is rhetorical, be aware that the question itself, rhetorical or not, is a cry of pain. And each time they feel pain, it should be answered with another apology. (I can’t stress enough how important this is.) Be aware: Even if they are not verbalizing this to you, they are still silently asking the question “Why?” over and over and over again.

INJUSTICE: They feel it’s all so unfair. You invited danger, you took the risk, but they suffered injury. They want justice and begin to think like a vigilante. They may harbour a secret desire to do harm to you or your affair partner. They may want to get even by having a “revenge affair.”
Understand that the aftermath of your unfaithfulness is an agony you have thrust upon them. Meanwhile, despite your betrayal and deceit, and the shame you feel, you and your affair partner may retain fond or even loving memories of your affair. One of my patients described her feelings of injustice this way: “I feel like a rape victim watching helplessly as the jury returns a ‘not guilty’ verdict. Then, the assailant looks at me, points his finger at me and laughs all the way out of the courtroom. How can this possibly happen?”

A sad truth of infidelity is: It is unfair. Of course, there is no “justice” that can come from this. Betrayed spouses generally settle into this realization on their own, but they need to know that you understand how this plagues them. (Note: Read “Share your feelings of guilt and shame” in Section 2. It explains the best way to help them through their sense of injustice.)

INADEQUACY: Their self esteem is shattered. They feel belittled, insignificant, and often even unlovable. Just as you would crumple a piece of scrap paper and toss it in the garbage without a second thought, they feel you crushed them, discarded them, and didn’t give them a second thought, either. So, they question their own value. They wonder if you truly love them – or if anyone could. They need to know why you now choose them over your affair partner, even if they don’t ask. Make your case convincingly. Be generous, but be genuine. They’ll know if you aren’t, and false flattery for the purpose of mere appeasement will only hurt them more.

REPEATING: Over and over again, they review the story, thinking the same thoughts. Do not attempt to stop them. Repeating helps them to absorb and process the painful reality. You can help them get through it by answering all their questions truthfully and filling in all the gaps for them. The more they know – the more they can repeat the complete story – the faster they process it, accept it and begin to heal. If the story remains incomplete or significant gaps are filled in later, they may have to start the process all over again.

IDEALIZING: Sometimes they remember only good memories, as if their time with you was perfect. They long to live in the past, before the affair came along and “messed it up.” Assure them that you, too, remember the good times, and want things to be good again. Remind them that you want an even better future, that you are willing to work at it, and, most importantly, that you want your future with them – and not your affair partner.

FRUSTRATION: Their past fulfillments are gone. They haven’t found new ones yet and don’t seem interested in finding any. They feel they’re not coping with grief “right” or they feel they should be healing faster. They don’t understand why the pain returns again and again. They wonder if they will ever recover and feel better. You can help them by verbalizing what they need to hear even if you don’t or can’t fully understand it yourself. Be empathetic and assure them that under the circumstances they’re doing okay. Remember that despite how much you have hurt them, you are still the one they chose as their life partner, for better or for worse. You may still be their closest confidante. As incongruous as it may seem, don’t be surprised if they choose to confide in you over others.

BITTERNESS: Feelings of resentment and hatred toward you and your paramour are to be expected. Don’t be surprised if they redirect much of the anger that’s really meant for you toward your paramour. This is natural. It’s actually a way of protecting their love for you during the early stages. By restricting their anger toward you, they allow it to be time-released, and only in smaller, more manageable amounts. Expect their anger to surface periodically, and give them plenty of time to work through it so they can eventually let go of it. Understand that until they’ve worked through and exhausted their anger, they cannot heal.

WAITING: The initial struggle is waning, but their zest for life has not returned. They are in limbo, they are exhausted and uncertain. Indeed, life seems flat and uninteresting. They are unenthused about socializing, perhaps reluctant, and they are unable to plan activities for themselves. Help them by finding ways to stimulate them. Plan activities for them around things that hold their interest and bring joy back into their life.

EMOTIONS IN CONFLICT: This is one of the most difficult manifestations because there is so much going on at the same time and their feelings do not always synchronize with reality. The most succinct description was provided by the late Shirley Glass, PhD: “One of the ironies of healing from infidelity is that the perpetrator must become the healer. This means that betrayed partners are vulnerable because the person they are most likely to turn to in times of trouble is precisely the source of their danger.” The inherent conflict for a betrayed spouse is obvious, but Dr. Glass also recognized how difficult this balancing act can be for a repentant adulterer: “On the other hand, [unfaithful] partners sometimes find it hard to stay engaged with their spouses when they know they are the source of such intense pain.” The key, of course, is to stay engaged nonetheless. Be supportive and remorseful, and above all… keep talking.

TRIGGERS: Particular dates, places, items and activities can bring back their pain as intensely as ever. It feels like they’re caught in a loop as they relive the trauma. It is emotionally debilitating.

Triggers can cause days and nights of depression, renew anger, and can spark and reignite nightmares, which may make them fear sleeping. Triggers can cause them to question if they will ever again experience life without the anguish. Get rid of all the reminders immediately: Gifts, letters, pictures, cards, emails, clothing… whatever your spouse associates with your affair. Do this with your spouse so they are not left wondering when those triggers may recur. Never cling to anything that bothers your partner. It leaves the impression that your keepsakes and mementos, or any reminders of your affair, are more important to you than they are.

Attend to your partner. Learn what dates, songs, places, etc., are triggers for your partner. Pay attention to your environment: If you hear or see something that you think might be a trigger, assume it is. Each occasion a trigger arises is an appropriate moment for you to communicate a clear and heartfelt message that you’re sorry you acted so selfishly and caused this recurring pain. So again, apologize and let them know how much you love them. The occurrence of a trigger is also a good opportunity to express that you choose them and not your affair partner, which is important for them to hear. If a trigger occurs in public, you can still wrap your arm around your spouse’s waist or shoulder, or simply squeeze their hand, but verbalize your apology as soon as you are alone again.

It is very important for you to understand and remember this… Triggers can remain active for their entire life. Don’t ever think or insist that enough time has passed that they should be “over it” because another sad truth of infidelity is: Your affair will remain a permanent memory for them, subject to involuntary recall at any time – even decades later. They will NEVER be “over it.” They simply learn to deal with it better as they heal, as you earn back their trust, and as you rebuild your relationship – over time.

SECTION 2 - WHAT ELSE CAN YOU DO TO EASE THEIR PAIN & RELIEVE THEIR STRESS?

Make certain you’ve killed the beast: Your affair must be over, in all respects, completely and forever. You cannot put your marriage in jeopardy ever again. Your spouse has given you a second chance that you probably don’t deserve. That may sound harsh, but think about it this way: Despite any marital problems the two of you experienced, you would certainly understand if they divorced you solely because of your adultery. So assume there will not be a third chance and behave accordingly.

This opportunity you have been bestowed is a monumental gift, particularly considering the anguish you caused them. Treat this gift, and your spouse, with care and due respect: No contact means NO CONTACT OF ANY KIND – EVER.

GET INTO THERAPY: Most attempts to heal and rebuild after infidelity will fail without the assistance of a qualified therapist. Make certain you both feel comfortable with the therapist. You must trust them and have faith in their methodology. Talk about it: If of you are uncomfortable with your therapist at any time, don’t delay – find another. And if need be, yet another. Then stick with it. Save particularly volatile topics for counselling sessions. Your therapist will provide a neutral place and safe means to discuss these subjects constructively. Every so often, think back to where you were two or three months earlier. Compare that to where you are now and determine if you’re making progress. Progress will be made slowly, not daily or even weekly, so do not perform daily or weekly evaluations. Make the comparative periods long enough to allow a “moderate-term” review rather than “short-term.” Expect setbacks or even restarts, and again… stick with it.

APOLOGIZE: Actually, that should read: “Apologize, apologize, apologize.” You cannot apologize too often, but you can apologize improperly. Apologize genuinely and fully. Betrayed spouses develop a finely calibrated “insincerity radar.” A partial or disingenuous apology will feel meaningless, condescending or even insulting, particularly during the months following discovery. Your spouse will feel better if you don’t merely say, “I’m sorry.” To a betrayed spouse that sounds and feels empty. Try to continue and complete the apology by saying everything that’s now salient to your partner: “I’m ashamed I cheated on you and I’m so very sorry. I know that my lying and deceiving you has hurt you enormously. I deeply want to earn back your trust – and I want so much for you to be able, some day, to forgive me.” As noted earlier, right now genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit.

REALIZE YOUR PARTNER WANTS TO FEEL BETTER: There is so much they have to deal with – pain, anger, disappointment, confusion and despair. Their being, their world, is swirling in a black hole of negative feelings. It’s agonizing. They wish it would stop, but they feel powerless to make it go away, which worries them even more. Remember that they can’t help it: Just as they didn’t choose for this to happen, they don’t choose to feel this way. Beyond all the possible feelings described in the section above (and that list may be incomplete in your spouse’s case), even if they don’t understand them, they do recognize that changes are occurring in themselves – and they are frightened by them. As terrible as it is for you to see their ongoing nightmare, it is far worse to live in it. Periodically assure them that you know they will get better, that you are willing to do everything necessary for them to heal and to make your marriage work. Reassure them that you are with them for the duration – no matter how long it takes – and that you intend to spend the rest of your life with them.

HIDE NOTHING, OPEN EVERYTHING: While they’re greatly angered and hurt that you were emotionally and/or sexually involved with another person, they are even more devastated by your secret life, your lies and deception. They feel no trust in you right now – and they’re 100% justified. If ever there was someone in the world they felt they could trust, it was you – until now. Now, they have difficulty believing anything you say. They are driven to check up on everything. Let them. Better still, help them. Overload them with access. The era of “covering your tracks” must end and be supplanted by total and voluntary transparency.

You must dismantle and remove every vestige of secrecy. Offer your spouse the passwords to your email accounts – yes, even the secret one they still don’t know about. Let them bring in the mail. If you receive a letter, card or email from your paramour, let your spouse open it. If you receive a voice or text message on your cell phone, let them retrieve it and delete it. If your friends provided alibis for you, end those friendships. Do not change your phone bill to a less detailed version or delete your browser history. Provide your spouse with your credit card bills, bank account statements, cell phone bills and anything else you think they might wish to check. Immediately tell them if you hear from or accidentally run into your affair partner. Tell them where you are going, when you’ll be home, and be on time. If your plans change, notify them immediately.

The more willing you are to be transparent, the more honesty and openness they see and feel, the more “trust chits” you’ll earn. Replacing your previously secret life with complete openness is the fastest and most effective way to promote trust, even if it feels unfair or uncomfortable. Think of this as the “reverse image” of your affair: Your affair was about you selfishly making yourself feel good. Now, rebuilding trust is about selflessly making your partner feel safe with you – and you were certainly unfair to them. Keep in mind that eventually they will trust you again, but you must earn it and it will take time.

SPEND LOTS TIME WITH THEM: Assume that they want your company at all times. The more time you spend in their sight, the more they will feel a sense of safety, if only for that time. There may be times when you feel they’re a constant, perhaps even an annoying presence. Just remember that they need to be around you – more than ever. If they need time alone, they’ll let you know and you must respect that, too. Knowing where you are and who you are with reduces worry, but expect them to check up on you. Don’t take offence when this happens. Instead, welcome the opportunity: Think of each time – and each success – as receiving a check mark in the “Passed the Test” column. The more check marks you earn, the closer you are to being trusted again.

PHYSICAL CONTACT: They may or may not want to be sexual with you. If not, allow sufficient time for them to get comfortable with the idea of renewed intimacy and let them set the pace. But if so, don’t be discouraged if the sex is not optimum. They’re likely to be low on confidence and may feel self-conscious or inept. They may even act clumsily. This can be offset by lots of simple, soothing physical gestures such as hugging them, stroking them softly and providing kisses. You might try surprising them sexually. Try something new. Choose moments when they don’t expect it – it can feel fresh again. On the other hand, don’t be surprised if their sexual appetite and arousal is unusually heightened as some partners experience what’s called ‘Hysterical Bonding.’ Also be aware that during lovemaking they may suffer intrusive thoughts or mental images of you and your affair partner, so they may suddenly shut down or even burst into tears. Again, apologize for making them feel this way. Express that you choose them – and not your affair partner. Reassure them by emphasizing that they are the only one you truly want.

SHARE YOUR FEELINGS OF GUILT AND SHAME: If you exhibit no shame or guilt for hurting them, they’ll wonder if you’re truly capable of being sensitive, caring or even feeling. They may see you as callous and self-absorbed, and question if it’s really worth another try with you. But if you’re like most people who have badly hurt someone you truly love, then you certainly feel shame and guilt, though verbalizing it may be hard for you. Of course, some people do find it difficult to express these feelings, but try. You’ll find it provides a great sense of relief to share this with your partner. Moreover, do not fail to realize is how vitally important it is for your partner to hear it, to feel it, to see it in your eyes. It’s a building block in the reconstruction of trust and the repair of your marriage. Do not underestimate the power of satisfying their need to know that you are disappointed in yourself. Your opening up about this will help them feel secure again, help them to heal, and help you heal, too.

LET THEM KNOW YOU ARE HAPPY WITH YOUR CHOICE TO RECOMMIT: You probably think this is obvious, but to your betrayed partner, precious little is obvious anymore. They will wonder about this. Do not make them guess, and do not make them ask. Just tell them. If it doesn’t seem to come naturally at first, it may help if every now and then, you ask yourself, “If they had betrayed me this way, would I still be here?” (Most of us would answer, “No,” even if we can’t imagine being in that position.) When people give second chances to others, they really want to know that it’s meaningful to, and appreciated by, the recipient. So, express your thanks. Tell them how grateful you are for the opportunity to repair the damage you’ve done and rebuild your marriage. You’ll be surprised how much this simple, heartfelt act of gratitude will mean to them, and how it helps to re-establish the bond between you.

HERE’S A GREAT TIP: You will find it’s particularly meaningful to them when they’re obviously feeling low, but they’re locked in silence and aren’t expressing it to you. Just imagine… In their moments of unspoken loneliness or despair, you walk up to them, hug them and say, “I just want you to know how grateful I am that you’re giving me a second chance. Thank you so much. I love you more than ever for this. I’ve been feeling so ashamed of what I did and how much pain I caused you. I want you to know that I’ll never do anything to hurt you like this – ever again. I know I broke your heart and it torments me. I want you to know your heart is safe with me again.”

These are beautifully comforting words, particularly when they’re delivered at such a perfect
moment. You can memorize the quote, modify it, or use your own words, whatever is most
comfortable for you. The key is to include, in no particular order, all six of these components:

A statement of gratitude.

An expression of your love.

An acknowledgment of your spouse’s pain.

An admission that you caused their pain.

An expression of your sense of shame.

A promise that it will never happen again

Unfaithful spouses I’ve counselled often report that this most welcome surprise is the best thing they did to lift their partner’s spirits – as well as their own.

SECTION 3 - SO WHAT ARE THE NEXT STAGES, AFTER THEY WORK THROUGH ALL THEIR GRIEF, PAIN AND STRESS?

HOPE: They believe they will get better. They still have good days and bad days, but the good days out balance the bad. Sometimes they can work effectively, enjoy activities and really care
for others.

COMMITMENT: They know they have a choice. Life won’t be the same, but they decide to actively begin building a new life.

SEEKING: They take initiative, renewing their involvement with former friends and activities. They
begin exploring new involvements.

PEACE: They feel able to accept the affair and its repercussions, and face their own future.

LIFE OPENS UP: Life has value and meaning again. They can enjoy, appreciate, and anticipate events. They are willing to let the rest of their life be all it can be. They can more easily seek and find joy.

FORGIVENESS: While the memory will never leave them, the burden they’ve been carrying from your betrayal is lifted. Given what you have done, the pain it caused them and the anguish they lived through, this is the ultimate gift they can bestow. They give it not only to you, but to themselves. Be grateful for this gift – and cherish it always.

Rejoice in your renewed commitment to spend your lives together in happiness. Celebrate it together regularly!


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

_"After a NC period of about 5 months and much MC, I find out from the key logger that she has opened a secret e-mail account and has sent the OM the following message (*apparently in response to a note he handed to her at the grocery store*). "Despite thousands of dollars in therapy and being in hell for months, I would like to talk to you. I can meet at X (public) place at X time. Remember, you still have something of mine. (signed) X (no "love" no "xxoo" just X)."_

I don't believe the story about him passing her a note in the supermarket. Not that it makes much difference, but I think she just probably went fishing without any contact from OM whatsoever. From what little you've said, it seems she was way more into him than he was into her (*"she told me at one point that her heart was "entirely with" the OM"; "I asked her if he loved her and she said that "I think he could love me."*).

If you want her back, you have to adopt OM's attitude of letting her be more into you than you are into her. The one who cares the least about losing the other has the most power in a relationship. Right now, the way your wife is blatantly lying to you, telling you lies a 4-year-old wouldn't believe; even she probably can't believe you're just accepting these lies. She must really be very confident that you'll take her back no matter what in the end, as long as she eventually comes back to you. I get the sense that she believes there is no line she cannot cross where you would ever refuse to take her back.

I feel bad for you, but the way you're letting her treat you like a doormat, you're your own worst enemy. Tell her you want the truth and if you don't get it, she can kiss your marriage goodbye. Trust me, she knows the OM is is not that into her and she doesn't want to lose her sure thing (you). If she really thought she'd lose you, she'd straighten out in a hurry. If OM shows true interest, or what she perceives as true interest, she might go for him over you right now. So, you also have to take out the OM and show her what a POS he is. He's just in it for the sex, otherwise he would have pursued her during this supposed NC. Lord knows, you haven't done a blessed thing to prevent it.

You still have hope, but you've got to start getting this thing turned around. The time for action is now.


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## JustWaiting (Jun 28, 2011)

Other than knowing that you want your self-respect, it's hard to know what you really want right now. You have four young children. The only advice you received that I disagree with is the suggestion about picking up a divorce packet at the courthouse and letting her see that. You can pick up the packet so that you can see what the financial affidavits and financial worksheets look like, but you should sit down with a good attorney at least twice. If you have filled out the financial affidavit before you go the first time, you can have a much more productive consultation. I'd also suggest that you go dark. Don't tell her what you know or what you suspect. Don't confront her. Let her be the one who's guessing. Don't let her mine you for information. In the silence, she will talk. Don't worry about what other people think. It wouldnt matter what you said or showed someone. They would still think whatever they want to think. Right now, you need to protect yourself and your children. If the landscape is not greener, she may settle in for a while, but it is going to take some real time if she is going to truly recommit herself to you and only she can make that committment
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Alyosha (Feb 27, 2012)

I Already talked to a lawyer.

I have told her that I love her but if she doesn't love/trust/respect me enough to come completely clean about the whole affair then there is nothing to move forward with and nothing to build on. 

I think she understands but she is still stonewalling. She has a history of trust issues relating back to her childhood. She will never come clean.

I'm 99% certain that this marriage is over.

I really appreciate all the advice with respect to my question about the likelihood of a PA. It was a very helpful sanity check for me.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Good luck friend. 

Keep in touch and let us know how it's going with you. 

Divorce sucks, and you need all the friends you can get.


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## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

Aly - for me, whether it is a PA is a big deal, but it is a bigger deal that she said she would leave over him. She was/still is in love with him. That does not mean it is permanent (infatuation may feel like love). Keep your dignity, the 180 is the way to go. I call BS on "trust issues." If someone cannot be honest with their spouse of 10 years and father of her children, they just cannot be honest. Childhood trama is an excuse, not a reason - I bet she could be perfectly honest with the OM. Keeping calm, keeping reasonable, and understanding that ridiculous statements are most likely not true is the way to be. Do not give her the satisfaction of seeing your emotions.


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## martyc47 (Oct 20, 2011)

bryanp said:


> No woman would be willing to leave her husband of 10 years and her 4 children if the the affair had not become physical. For her telling you it was only an emotional affair for 4 months is an insult to your intelligence. She clearly is playing you for a fool.
> 1. Get tested for STD's.
> 2. See a lawyer.


I disagree with the first sentence because I've witnessed* otherwise, but I agree that it was likely ( though not definite) in this case, and obviously her current behavior is not that of one who is serious about R.

* I've known women who had the "decency" ..I guess, to throw it all away before pursuing a PA and/or the phantasy was enough to do it without being consummated.


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## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

Word: Those of you who would stay in a marriage for your children's sake need to know this.
Children don't look at their fathers like they do their mothers.
If a child sees his or her mother staying in the marriage in spite of how she is being treated, they pity her yet don't hold her in contempt.
this isn't true with their fathers. If the man chooses to be his SO's doormat, they will consider it to be a sign of WEAKNESS.


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## Alyosha (Feb 27, 2012)

martyc47 said:


> I disagree with the first sentence because I've witnessed* otherwise, but I agree that it was likely ( though not definite) in this case, and obviously her current behavior is not that of one who is serious about R.
> 
> * I've known women who had the "decency" ..I guess, to throw it all away before pursuing a PA and/or the phantasy was enough to do it without being consummated.


You've personally seen a woman leave a long marriage and kids without so much as having even kissed the OM?

To me, that just doesn't sound credible. I think that most women operate under the monkey/branch principle -- they don't let the first branch go until the second one is firmly in their grasp. You are not going to get the OM firmly in your grasp if you both haven't at least sampled the goods.

I have to listen to my gut on this one. It was right about the initial EA. She's lying.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

There are plenty here who have lost there wives over the internet and have never met the other man in person. Hard to believe is an understatement.


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## Alyosha (Feb 27, 2012)

Amazes me.

But the internet is one thing....this particular OM lives less than 8 miles from us. He doesn't work (trust fund puke) and neither does my wife. 3 of 4 kids in school for 7 hrs a day. Nanny for the youngest.

Believe me, the opportunity for PA was there in spades.

She's lying.


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## AngryandUsed (Jun 23, 2011)

Sorry Aly again.

How is life for you? Take care of yourself first. Have you confronted her about PA? 

AU


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## martyc47 (Oct 20, 2011)

Alyosha said:


> You've personally seen a woman leave a long marriage and kids without so much as having even kissed the OM?
> 
> To me, that just doesn't sound credible. I think that most women operate under the monkey/branch principle -- they don't let the first branch go until the second one is firmly in their grasp. You are not going to get the OM firmly in your grasp if you both haven't at least sampled the goods.
> 
> I have to listen to my gut on this one. It was right about the initial EA. She's lying.


I have. I'm not going to say "all women are different" or each person is different, because I believe there are some general universal traits, and stereotypical ways that women act compared to men, and so on. In my situation, I have the most experience with women who don't really require sexual consummation in order to be fully into the EA to the point of leaving a family at the CHANCE of a new relationship. even sometimes while delusional about the reality of the new "relationship"- even when there is PA ( a lot of men will not turn down the PA while not exactly agreeing to whatever the woman has in mind as the type of relationship). I have also seen women throw the family away for as little as internet flirting and text messages, and sex talk that turned out to be empty.

Your case is your case. You probably know it better than anyone. I was simply stating that it does happen. Also, a lot of women ( and men) don't consider the EA "cheating" and will end an old relationship before the new one becomes physical. They don't care how the relationship started but they can convince themselves they were faithful and "did the right thing" by ending the relationship ( in the case of marriage "separating") minuted before jumping into bed with the person they are already "in love with."

"Sampling the goods" also isn't that important to people who are convinced they are in love. Of course it's rare that people are going to do something like wait for marriage to have sex, but women especially can "fall in love" very fast and sample the goods after they feel the love bond. Most relationships are nowhere near 100% based on sex and don't come about by sleeping around and then trying to bag the best lay.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

I think you're making good progress.

_*"I have told her that I love her but if she doesn't love/trust/respect me enough to come completely clean about the whole affair then there is nothing to move forward with and nothing to build on."*_

This is what should have happened on day one. I know you've been dealing with this for 5-plus months, but really your efforts are at day one now. If you stick with this and do not accept any more of her lies, you may now begin to see some real progress.

Hang in there.


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## Saffron (Mar 7, 2010)

Alyosha said:


> Amazes me.
> 
> But the internet is one thing....this particular OM lives less than 8 miles from us. He doesn't work (trust fund puke) and neither does my wife. 3 of 4 kids in school for 7 hrs a day. Nanny for the youngest.
> 
> ...


Based on this information and your other posts, I agree. It was a PA. To what degree may still be questioned, but for her to claim only an EA is hard to believe. When a WS continues to trickle truth, it's better to assume the worst. They've already proven they're not trustworthy, so it's not the time to be giving them the benefit of the doubt. In this situation, trust your doubt/gut not your WS.

My H (the WS) believes anyone who claims an EA if in close proximity to the AP is lying. He said it's the addicitive nature of the EA and fantasy that sends the relationship hurtling into the physical realm. The anticipation keeps building with every encounter. So first a kiss, next a make-out session, then a BJ, and ultimately an afternoon at a hotel.

An EA/PA escalates rapidly. Like any addiction, to keep the excitement and ego boost high, the "dosage" has to keep getting stronger to get the same amount of satisfaction from the encounter. Holding hands and a kiss aren't going to give the same thrill after a few meetings. Same goes for email and text content. Their needs escalate as time goes on. In order to get the same rush of excitement each time they interact, the APs keep pushing the boundaries of the relationship.

Sorry you're going through this, but it's good to see you aren't going to trust her blindly. Stay strong. Your wife has not proven herself truthworthy, so keep trusting yourself.


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