# So we had a heck of a last week...



## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

He has finished his book about "Nice Guys" and employed many of the suggestions within that book. He went out for a Macallen (don't think I spelled that right) scotch tasting with his co-worker. He had a fantastic time and I could see him loosing his shell, if you will, something I was THRILLED about. He came home happy and bonded even better with his good friend and co-worker.
That was Thursday night. Friday, I sent him an email and asked him to open up to me. He has always said that he only thinks of me, which I knew to be questionable. In the two years of us trying to rebuild our marriage he has admitted to checking out other women and visually undressing them. He has apparently done this since puberty. Groovy, but why lie about it? 
Anyways, he was totally open on Friday. He told me that he does in fact masturbate to the thought of younger women. He swears it only happens about once a month and other than that, it's only about me. Ouch.
Part of him being a "former nice guy" is to lie about what he thinks would hurt me. Okay, I get that. Did it hurt? YES. 
Over the weekend he pretty much ignored me though! So I don't know what is going on. It's like he cherry picked his way through the book and failed to see the larger message. What about the parts (I read the same book) of making her feel secure, safe, the MOST important?
What is going on?!


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## lbell629 (May 10, 2010)

He's a guy?? Honestly, did you tell him how you felt after he admitted that to you? Did you ask him to stay home and pay extra attention to you? Guys really just don't get it. They aren't mind readers so you have to tell them. Yes, it may seem like a completely "duh" kind of thing, but you have to tell them and not expect them to know what to do. You can go back and praise him for being open and honest with you, tell him that you knew it was hard for him and you were happy that he did it. Tell him that yes, it did hurt to hear those things and he can help with that hurt by doing X, Y and Z.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

This is the caveat that NG gave you a while back when we were discussing this.

What he gets, and wants to use from the book for _his_ benefit, may not be what you wanted him to get and use from the book for _your_ benefit.

I understand that you remain frustrated, but it still sounds like you hope to change him by proxy - meaning that the book would bring him closer to you. Fact is, the book is intended to bring him closer to himself, from which you may ultimately benefit.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Hi Brennan, I think Deejo is exceptionally insightful although it may not be want you want to hear but nevertheless it’s very insightful and instructional.

As far as “change” is concerned well you’ve had some change and it’s been relatively instant. Some of the change you like and some you don’t. You are walking the path of change and well done you, you were the catalyst for that change with all your endeavours here and maybe elsewhere.

But marriage is like a system, change a part of it somewhere and another change pops up in the least expected of places. And maybe we don’t like what pops up. Maybe it’s best during this time to be philosophical about it and not to take it too personally.

He’s opening up to you. Isn’t that what you wanted, emotional honesty? Tell him you don’t like something about it and you may not get anymore.

Change takes time. In some ways we are habits and they can be hard to break and let go of because in a way they are our safety and security. It takes a while to develop new habits and hence new ways of life, new ways of being. In a way you are venturing into unknown territory with destination not really known. Enjoy the journey!

Bob


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

I know change takes time. In the meantime, the new honesty would be a lot easier and less painful to digest if it went along with a heaping of affection, communication and time spent together. In essence he went to do his guy thing on Thursday, fessed up to being turned on by younger women on Friday and Saturday morning he confessed that he thought I was slacking off (a tad) at the gym. WHAM! He then spent most of the weekend watching football, playing his computer game and chilling on the sofa. DOUBLE WHAM!! My weekend? I felt abandoned, old and fat. It was awful.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I'm really not trying to sound facetious, but none of this sounds new.

You know your 'bond' has been suffering. You haven't been connecting for sometime. He takes ownership of this fact and in essence conveys that he isn't as attracted to you as you would like - and the outcome for you is that you feel worse instead of acknowledging that everything is on the table.

Honesty is great, huh?

What happens when you mirror him? Have you tried matching his 'distance'?

If his perception is that eventually you will just chase him, then he really doesn't have to do anything proactive when it comes to your relationship.


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

Just a question Brennan. Did you guys sit down and talk about what you both learned from that book together?? Just wondering if maybe him hearing what you found from it and you hearing what he got from it might help you both see the areas that grabbed your attention more?


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Deejo, agreed. Yes I distance myself, no choice really. It breeds resentment. He could go for weeks being totally fine with limited contact. I would be the one who suffered, like the weekend.

Dawn,
He is going to reread the book as he feels this is important. We will discuss then.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

How about throwing some couples therapy into the mix?

He's trying to do part of what you've asked. He's opening up and being more honest - but is he doing it for you, for himself or the marriage? 

I'm afraid he's just doing it for you (still classic Nice Guy behavior), but let's hope I'm wrong.

I'm struggling with this same kind of thing myself.

My wife has stopped her EA's (I'm fairly certain) and I'm starting to work on myself more. Still I don't feel our marriage growing stronger. We are both making positive changes - independently - but Easy Street isn't showing up on the GPS just yet.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Believe me, I'm with you. I was in the same boat. In the end, books, therapy and from my perspective, consistently underperforming effort dictated the course of events.

Oh ... and an affair moved things along.

Hope you guys don't go there.

Will give you the same advice I'd give you if you were a dude.

Find and pursue things that fulfill you completely outside of the scope of the relationship. If both of you guys are doing this - without a sense of obligation or score keeping, it can breed a sense of independence that makes you perceive coming together differently.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Just kind of want to point out that a man admitting he masturbates at least once a month while thinking about younger women is about the same as admitting he likes oxygen. Doesn't really sound like a big deep dark secret was lifted from his shoulders to me.

The gym thing - I have an image in my head of you DEMANDING emotional honesty from him - and him just blurting this one out at you - maybe even not meaning it. Once again, I hope I'm wrong. But if you are trying to lead him down this path with a choke collar, I don't think its going to work.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Deejo,
I have been really thinking about taking up a former hobby again, fencing. I loved it then, it was just time consuming and the kids were younger. Now they don't want "Mom" around as much. There are two acadamies here that I could start out with and then move back into competition. 10 years ago when I sold my equipment, I thought I was doing the right thing, focusing on him more, family, etc. How ironic that I am considering going back to this hobby to find myself and in turn, hope to repair my marriage and family.
If nothing else, it's one HELL of a workout.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

NG,
I didn't demand anything from him. I have often talked with him about things I read on this board. One was about Scanner talking about younger women. So I asked my husband about it on Friday and that's when he told me. Pretty much the same thing with the gym. It's not like I am this nut crusher.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Brennan said:


> NG,
> I didn't demand anything from him. I have often talked with him about things I read on this board. One was about Scanner talking about younger women. So I asked my husband about it on Friday and that's when he told me. Pretty much the same thing with the gym. It's not like I am this nut crusher.


I don't think you're a nut crusher. I think you are the more dominant personality in the marriage and that you want some things to change for the better.

Do you understand what I'm asking in my questions above?

If you give a "Nice Guy" a book and ask him to make some changes, he's likely to say "OK" just to keep you happy. It doesn't mean he's ready to actually move forward with you and work actively to make things better.

You ask him about his secrets and desires while acting as if your marriage hinges on his answers, he's going to give you SOMETHING - but it might not really be what's in his heart.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

NG,
Ok, I understand your point a little better now. So what now? **Sigh**


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Fence?

I don't like the answer that pops into my head - which is to shake him up a little.

Most of us didn't really start to make changes until we were in panic mode.

Maybe making yourself a bit more scarce - as Deejo suggested - would help. If he sees you active and happy it could have a positive impact on him.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Brennan, good to read you again. I felt I lost a friend in your absence so even if your husband doesn't appreciate you, I do. 

Fencing? Really interesting! 

I am wondering how you feel about yourself overall. Physically? Mentally? Romantically?

I keep going back to confidence in several of these posts and it goes both ways for both a male and a female. 

As to your relationship with hubby, it seems like intimacy is grossly lacking and since the attachment is so fragile I'd imagine his comments hurt even more. They reflect badly on him. Honesty is great but I wonder if it's the lack of intimacy that allows him to have these feelings in the first place. He imagines younger girls, if you were in a relationship where intimacy was lacking and were masturbating to get off wouldn't you use the picture of a very attractive man?

I know I suggested this before and I'll suggest it again. Why not find a computer game you both can play. There are some that are very cerebral. My husband and I (and sometimes all three kids on our lan) play Age of Mythology which is a strategy game. We also have an Xbox and I'll play his games that involve guns and don't really interest me if he plays Band Hero. This one on one time together always really makes me feel close to him even though it's stupid.

Shared interests equal intimacy. Maybe he'd be interested in getting involved in fencing as well?

I'm not a huge fan of marriage counseling. I don't know why really. I think there are easier, quicker solutions.

Lastly, what about really looking at yourself. I know you're still in love with your husband but are you truly? Can we love a person who doesn't show any interest in us or is this the path to loving but not being in love.

Just putting all my thoughts out there. My personal opinion is that you're an awesome, opinionated, spunky person and that your husband needs to begin to appreciate that.

Instead of getting him to man up why not woman up? Become more of yourself and self indulge and explore. I believe I am at a similar space in my relationship in that my kids are getting older. This has been so amazing for me as I have more time to become who I always was but began to disconnect from. Reconnecting to my own needs and wants has been extraordinary. My husband told me the other day that he finds me more attractive now than ever before. I haven't really changed how I look but I'm giving him more of me.

If nothing else ask him to find out who has been thwapping him over the head with the stupid stick and ask him to make them stop


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Ng,
Shake him up with fencing or did you mean take up the hobby again? because fencing is anything but violent and neither am I. Very controlled sport with lots of mental concentration. 
Part of taking up a hobby is to make myself scarce. That will give us both time to reflect.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Trenton,
Hi! It's good to be back and lesson learned about loosing my cool with another poster.
Anyways, you have given me alot of things to think about. What really struck me is that I have become really complacent in my life, yet get irritated and upset that my husband has too. Very interesting things I need to ponder.
As for us both taking up fencing, he has shown no interest in the past. I will ask him again though. He REALLY would love it. He played racquetball competitively for years so he likes competition. Fencing is way more cerebral than racquetball. I think he would love it. I will ask.
And **ahem**, my dear. It's not a "stick", it's called a foil. At least that was the style of fencing I was involved with. **winks**


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Most of us were shaken up with EAs or PAs, but of course I wouldn't suggest that. Not sure fencing would shake him up, but making yourself scarce might make him a bit nervous.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

NG,
More interesting things to consider. You guys are awesome. There are alot of good looking guys who fence so maybe you are on to something when you say it might shake him up.
Of course I am joking about the last part. Yes, good looking dudes but not my reason for looking to go back in to it, nor is shaking up my husband my motive.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Trenton,
> Hi! It's good to be back and lesson learned about loosing my cool with another poster.
> Anyways, you have given me alot of things to think about. What really struck me is that I have become really complacent in my life, yet get irritated and upset that my husband has too. Very interesting things I need to ponder.
> As for us both taking up fencing, he has shown no interest in the past. I will ask him again though. He REALLY would love it. He played racquetball competitively for years so he likes competition. Fencing is way more cerebral than racquetball. I think he would love it. I will ask.
> And **ahem**, my dear. It's not a "stick", it's called a foil. At least that was the style of fencing I was involved with. **winks**


Racquetball = 3 dimensional chess and a lot of puff. Fencers just stand there and try and poke each other lol.

Bob


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

At the end of the day the only person we can change is ourself.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

At the end of the day we can only change ourself.

We can hope that our changes inspires and influences others to change.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Brennan said:


> NG,
> Ok, I understand your point a little better now. So what now? **Sigh**


Take the fencing. Get a little edgier. Occasionally threaten him with physical violence. Say things to him like, "If you don't shuddup I'm gonna do my talkin' with the back of my hand."
And call him "your b!tch." 

I think he'll go for this. This could be the best advice I've given to date.

Try it ... what could possibly go wrong?


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I just kind of liked seeing Bob's thoughtful advice juxtaposed against my method of madness.

Bob's is probably the wiser ...


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Sex & Violence. I'm a strong advocate as well Deejo. You might be on to something. Brennan, give him a big whack, you might have a restraining order against you at the end of it but he will definitely begin paying attention. I kid, I kid.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Bob,
You crack me up! Fencing is alot like chess having to anticipate the others move, rules, right of way and formation. Racquetball is just a ball flying around a 4 wall room and two people trying to smack it. And there is NO standing in fencing. LOL.

**Did I mention that I get to wield a sword while he gets to hit a green ball with a racquet**


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Deejo,
Should I wear a Catwoman suit and carry a foil chasing him around the house scaring the crap out of him? Yeah, that would work.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I'm thinking more along the lines of sexy black lingerie, and a hockey mask like Jason wears. 

Now that says "This chick's crazy, and I must please her to survive."

If you can score a bullwhip, go for the Catwoman outfit too.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Brennan said:


> Deejo,
> Should I wear a Catwoman suit and carry a foil chasing him around the house scaring the crap out of him? Yeah, that would work.


I say you put on the Catwoman suit, grab your foil and announce - *"I'm going out for the evening - don't wait up!"*

That would be distant and mysterious!

Then maybe just go hang out at a Starbucks for a couple of hours - in costume, of course.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Bob,
> You crack me up! Fencing is alot like chess having to anticipate the others move, rules, right of way and formation. Racquetball is just a ball flying around a 4 wall room and two people trying to smack it. And there is NO standing in fencing. LOL.
> 
> **Did I mention that I get to wield a sword while he gets to hit a green ball with a racquet**


Playing badminton tomorrow night. It's tame for me and apparently I need a limp wrist which is putting me off even more. But I enjoy the company and the beer after.

Can see you two having a go at each others sports if you haven't already. My wife wasn't much at at tennis but I thoroughly enjoyed playing with her. Watching her down the other end of the court for an hour couldn't wait to get her home lol.

Those that play together stay together ....


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

Brennan - I'm not that familiar with your story, but I've been recommending No More Mr Nice Guy on this site and did some counselling with the author. 

I'm not clear exactly what you want from your husband, what you are unhappy about, how you think the nice guy stuff effects your relationship. Can you elaborate?


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Seeking,
He read that exact book. I bought it and handed it to him. He has employed some of what is in there. What he chose to pick out was be totally honest yet in doing so, he failed to see the larger picture. Owning his man stuff and going out with a co-worker for a scotch tasting to bond (as is mentioned in the book), telling me the honest truth instead of what he thinks I want to hear (I need to hit the gym a bit more) and admitting that younger women turn him on...then following it all up this past weekend with ignoring me, watching football and playing a computer game. I read the same book. He can say whatever he wants to me and I appreciate his now honesty. What I don't appreciate is his cherry picking his way through the book and picking what he wanted. The crux of the book (as I understood it) was to own yourself. It is also about building healthy relationships with your spouse/loved one. His going out and then in essence telling me he disapproves of my body (which btw is awesome but oh well) and admitting to fantacizing about younger women left me feeling old, fat and like ****.
Some of the posters here told me to get back into a hobby or try something new. I have been a competitive fencer many years ago. I gave that up because it took so much time away from my marriage and family. They are helping me to see that I became a shell of who I used to be because I thought it was best for my family. Now, this hobby might be exactly what I need to save my family. I feel taken for granted and I feel that he thinks I am always going to be around, history has proven that over 17 years. I have put up with being taken advantage of, held sexually hostage due to his lower sex drive and and totally ignored emotionally and physically. Once he knew I was ready to walk out the door, he came home and announced that our marriage was important to him. He loved me, always has and cannot stand the thought of me not being in his life. That was two years ago. I believed him and (tried) to set aside a mountain of resentment and make it work. His words were only words though. No action whatsoever. He believes his word is his bond, I believe his actions are. We disagree so that is where we are now.
That's the Cliff Notes version.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

I second NiceGuy's idea and have done something to that sort a few times minus the cat suit. Sometimes a little bit of jealousy is all it takes for a man to stand up and respond.


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

> I feel taken for granted and I feel that he thinks I am always going to be around, history has proven that over 17 years. I have put up with being taken advantage of, held sexually hostage due to his lower sex drive and and totally ignored emotionally and physically. Once he knew I was ready to walk out the door, he came home and announced that our marriage was important to him. He loved me, always has and cannot stand the thought of me not being in his life. That was two years ago. I believed him and (tried) to set aside a mountain of resentment and make it work. His words were only words though. No action whatsoever. He believes his word is his bond, I believe his actions are. We disagree so that is where we are now.


Thanks for this. Honestly I'd check your expectations of a book. Nice guy stuff is basically being passive aggressive, procrastination, giving to get, avoiding conflict, and using surreptitious means to get sex.

Nice guys figure that being nice is a way to avoid pain in life (to paraphrase Dr Glover) which is impossible. Your husband sounds like a passive aggressive guy. However your anger over his masturbation and fantasies of younger women seem overly controlling. You don't own the guy. Fantasies aren't unfaithful or a breach of marriage contract. 

You say you feel taken for granted and held sexually hostage. I doubt he'll figure it out from this book. Calle Zorro has some good material (it's marketed to men, so he uses getting sex from one's wife as the marketing hook, but the content is really about creating intimacy and connection in the marriage.) However, if your husband isn't motivated by sex or intimacy, it's hard to know what is going to get him off his ass.

Fear of loss is a bigger motivator than benefit of gain, psychologically. The problem is the threat of loss is a bit like beating a dog. You get submission in the short term, but at the expense of trust in the long term. 

I don't have an answer for you other than state your needs in explicit language and give him a deadline, while building your own life. Saying I feel taken for granted is too vague, specifically saying, you don't take me out on dates, or tell me I'm beautiful is more specific.

(BTW: Telling you you're fat seems like a retarded thing to say, unless you've really packed on pounds in recent years. If he doesn't find you attractive you may want to tell him he's welcomed to go chase some younger women. Given he hasn't dated in, what, 17 years, he'll quickly find his "game" is rusty and there's not quite the market for middle aged guys that he's anticipating.)

Good luck.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Seeking,
Thank you for your response and Holy crap you are right! As I have said before, he is a total conflict avoider, passive agg and all around "nice guy". 
I will seek out my hobby. I thought about it all day and I know it is what I need to do. I loved that sport and it was so much fun!
My husband can either find his own hobby and enjoy life or can wallow in the man he has become. It is up to him.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Brennan,

I like Trenton's idea also, about you joining in on the gaming, in addition to the fencing (with or without catsuit).

What types of games does he play? Are they the social kind where he can be interacting with other people online? 

Just kind of wondering....


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Brennan, you’d have a bigger problem if H were checking out younger men. I wonder what the stats would be about men checking out younger women? Red blooded heterosexual married men? I’m guessing around 80 to 90 percent.

Men in my age group who’ve been married for decades do it. I see them all the time. Ten couples in their 50s and 60s sitting having a coffee and chat outside a cafe. Woman walks by and 100% of the men whose field of vision she comes into will look and linger for a bit. It is life!

Only difference is older we get the wider the age span of the younger women gets lol. It’s a natural thing to do. We’ve been programmed to do it ever since the human race came into existence. It’s like a “pattern matching” of a woman’s body and template in our mind.

Bob


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

seeking sanity said:


> Fear of loss is a bigger motivator than benefit of gain, psychologically.


:iagree:


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Brennan said:


> NG,
> Ok, I understand your point a little better now. So what now? **Sigh**


I still think listening to him with empathy holds great promise.

This breakdown didn't happen in a day. It's unlikely a few chapters in a book will fix it in 15 minutes.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Thank you all for your resposes. I will take them all in to consideration!


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

So do you still believe that the 'Nice Guy' label applies to your husband?

The common element that I usually see, that I do not in your case, is that the classic 'Nice Guy' is a pursuer. He wants nothing more than to do things to please his wife - who rejects him, and he in turn tries the exact same things that didn't work, with more vigor.

I'm trying to understand, did this already take place in your marriage and you are now living with the results of 'Nice Guy' burnout? 

There are a few threads about this too. The model is that your husband becomes acclimated to rejection. He expects to be rejected, therefore there comes the point where he stops trying. He stops investing himself in the relationship at all.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Deejo,
I don't really know the answer to that. He wasn't a puruer per se. Much more passive. NOW he does the passive ag crap that drives me nuts. Example, three weeks ago I told him we needed time alone. "Let's get away". His exact words were "done" and he hugged me. He promised we would go camping (just the two of us) last weekend. Not only did we not go camping but I doubt he ever had any intention of following through with booking it, etc. He said that because we had been arguing, his resentment got the better of him and he chose not to make it happen. Weekend (that I was ignored) came and went and MY resentment built even further. He choses to deal with relationship problems by ignoring them or straight out sabotage instead of communicating his feelings. It's a tough thing to live with.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Brennan said:


> Deejo,
> I don't really know the answer to that. He wasn't a puruer per se. Much more passive. NOW he does the passive ag crap that drives me nuts. Example, three weeks ago I told him we needed time alone. "Let's get away". His exact words were "done" and he hugged me. He promised we would go camping (just the two of us) last weekend. Not only did we not go camping but I doubt he ever had any intention of following through with booking it, etc. He said that because we had been arguing, his resentment got the better of him and he chose not to make it happen. Weekend (that I was ignored) came and went and MY resentment built even further. He choses to deal with relationship problems by ignoring them or straight out sabotage instead of communicating his feelings. It's a tough thing to live with.


Sorry to beat a dead horse - but what kinds of games does he play? If you answer I promise to stop asking!

What if getting away for the weekend was something that HE really wanted to do? Would he follow through then? Does he take initiative with things that are important to him?

Other than gaming, does anything really seem important to him?


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

NG,
I don't know what computer game he plays now. He used to play Ruinscape. 
At the time HE really seemed excited about going away. A day or two later and we started bickering again, resentment grew and then this weekend away didn't happen. I think if we hadn't been bickering, we would have gone away. Yes, he takes initiative with other things in his life.
Other than gaming? That's an interesting thing to think about. Not much really although he used to have so many hobbies. We both workout but that is not a hobby, more like a chore. He used to run and he played competitive racquetball. I am beginning to think maybe a bit of depression has set in for both of us.


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