# Wife shows symptoms of borderline personality disorder - pushing my family away



## BPDSpouse(Ithink) (Sep 27, 2012)

I have been married for 4 years. I've always known that my wife was abused as a child, physically, emotionally, sexually. She was raised in poverty and spent time in woman's shelters when her mother was in between relationships. 

When we met, I was convinced that she was my soul mate, I have never felt so energized by someone in my life. I imagine that what I felt when I was with her was like being on cocaine. That high was so intense that I became addicted at once. 

However, even a month into our relationships she showed signs of great fear of abandonment and low self esteem. At the time she was completing a masters degree and was having problems with her mother (a long story in and of itself) and so I presumed those fears were stress related. 

We married 13 months after we began dating. That first year was mostly wonderful but peppered with stresses. She had (has) a fiery temper and it flared from time to time, but nothing that could not be quelled by some kind words and loving attention. 

By the time we were getting ready to get married, our relationship changed. Her angry outbursts became more pronounced, more frequent and less reasonable. She became inconsolable at the slightest offense. It came to the point that if I raised my eyebrow in a certain way she would fly off the handle, upset, angry, sad. "Why can't you just love me" she would say. No matter what I said, nothing could console her. 

At the same time, her relationship with my mother was deteriorating (I understand that wife/mother relationships are often difficult, this is my second marriage, I lived common law with a woman for 7 years). My mother can be difficult at times. Controlling, matriarchal, domineering. However, my W has cast my mother entirely as: "*****," "controlling," "misbehaving," "C***," . It has now come to the point that if I say to my W that I spoke to my mother, she becomes immediately tense and demands to know verbatim what we talked about. In the last week this has become case with my sister as well. Also, my best man, has been painted as being bad and has effectively been cut out of our lives.

When we argue, W will take mine our entire history for instances where I've done or said something she considers an offense. Usually removing these instances from their original context and using them to "prove" that I am "always" doing this, or "always" doing that. Often she will misquote me or paraphrase me in such a way as to change the meaning of my words subtly. 

Other times, she will imagine me leaving her in the future or doing something that I don't really have a clue what it is, and this will cause her to fly into a rage.

I'm generally a very calm and patient person and was able to navigate peace between us for much of our first years. Now I am increasingly frustrated by the circularity of our discussions and fights. Nothing I can say or do is able to satisfy her or put her at ease and I have been nearing the end of my rope. 

There are of course many legitimate reasons for my w to get angry from time to time, and even to build resentments against myself, my friends and my family about certain things. I began to come to terms with my drinking problem well before she and I met but it was not until 2 years ago that I found the strength to become sober and I have not had a drink since december 2010. 

I am very introverted and I drank to medicate my social anxieties. Being introverted, I always thought that I was doing something wrong and that I had few friends because I wasn't extroverted enough. As it turns out, I have always had many friends, people have always liked and even admired me, I just like to be by myself. Coming to terms with that has been a long process. 

I thought that my quitting alcohol would help to mend our relationship. It did for a while, but I realize now that my behaviour is not really causing her unhappiness, that it is coming from within her. She is loathe to shine a light on herself (she's only ever once sincerely apologized to me about anything and that caused her to be seriously depressed for several days or weeks).

After reading some posts on this site, particularly responses by Uptown and Pidge70, I most clearly am able to identify strong, even profound BPD traits in my W. 

I wonder now if it is too late to save our marriage. W has now turned on my family. Claiming that they are racist and are trying to get in between her and I (W is Metis, I am white). My family is not racist--certainly not overtly. Though where we are from there is a persistent undercurrent of racism against Aboriginal people and I have to accept that its possible my family may have picked up certain prejudices.

However, W has cherry picked certain instances when my Mother has used insensitive language and used them to validate her anger wholescale.The 8 or 10 instances that my wife complains about might easily be explained as a misunderstanding or poor communication or as being taken away from context. W now wants to excommunicate herself from my family, just as she's done from almost her entire family and most every friend she's ever had.


I've just written so much, and I've barely scratched the surface of our problem.
I'm at my wits end.


----------



## ms.beesknees (Sep 26, 2012)

wow, very sorry for your stress. If you love her, get the both of you into counseling immediately. If she can get a diagnosis, and help im sure it can only help, and if there is nothing wrong with her then you know what you need to do from there. Sounds like you both would benefit from individual counseling as well as couples. Best of luck


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

IThink, welcome to the TAM forum. I'm sorry to hear that you are living with a woman who appears to be so similar to my BPDer exW.


BPDSpouse(Ithink) said:


> I have been married for 4 years. I've always known that my wife was abused as a child, physically, emotionally, sexually.


As you likely know by now, BPD is strongly associated with childhood abuse, particularly sexual abuse. Like your W, my exW had been emotionally, physically, and sexually abused by her parents (her father, actually) in childhood. Most abused children do not develop BPD but the abuse greatly raises the risk of doing so.


> When we met, I was convinced that she was my soul mate, I have never felt so energized by someone in my life.... That high was so intense that I became addicted at once.


Meeting my exW was exactly like that. Unless people have experienced it themselves, it is hard to explain to them why such toxic relationships filled with abuse are so addictive. They cannot imagine how wonderful BPDers are while they are splitting us white. I therefore encourage them to see a Marilyn Monroe movie. Marilyn is widely believed to have been a BPDer even though she has been the world's most beloved film actress.


> W now wants to excommunicate herself from my family, just as she's done from almost her entire family and most every friend she's ever had..... Also, my best man, has been ... been cut out of our lives.


Yep, my exW did the same. She always had an excuse for not going with me to visit my family and she absolutely hated my adult foster son. Moreover, when her five children started to love me, she became jealous of those relationships too. She perceived all of it to be a threat.


> When we argue, W will take mine our entire history for instances where I've done or said something she considers an offense.


A BPDer is so desperate for validation of her false self image as "The Victim," that she will gleefully keep a list of every infraction (real or imagined). The infractions are remembered and guarded as though they are precious trophies and awards that one brings out and shows to guests. They "validate" that she is whom she thinks she is.


> Often she will misquote me or paraphrase me in such a way as to change the meaning of my words subtly.


Sometimes a BPDer will do that deliberately. Mostly, however, it is done subconsciously to protect her fragile ego from seeing too much of reality. This process, called "projection," is relied on heavily for ego defense.


> Nothing I can say or do is able to satisfy her or put her at ease and I have been nearing the end of my rope.


As I've said in other threads, it is like trying to fill up the Grand Canyon with a squirt gun.


> After reading some posts on this site, particularly responses by Uptown and Pidge70, I most clearly am able to identify strong, even profound BPD traits in my W.


You will find lots of "Nons" like me at BPDfamily. Pidge, however, is a rare jewel. In my private life, I've met numerous BPDers but have never knowingly met one who is self aware like Pidge. In addition to the self awareness, Pidge also has had the ego strength to persist with treatments that taught her how to better manage her emotions. Hence, any communications you have here with Pidge may be your only opportunity to talk about these issues with a self aware, treated BPDer. If you've been living with a BPDer for four years, you will be delighted to speak -- at long last -- with a BPDer who can see the elephant in the room.


> I wonder now if it is too late to save our marriage.


*As an initial matter,* I strongly recommend you NOT tell your W about your suspicions. If she is a BPDer, she almost certainly will project the accusation right back onto you, believing YOU to be the BPDer. Instead, as BeesKnees suggests, simply encourage her to see a good psychologist (not a MC) and let the psych decide what to tell her.

As to whether your marriage can be saved, that is possible but very unlikely if she is a high functioning BPDer. The problem, of course, is that it takes TWO willing spouses to save a marriage and it is highly unlikely a HF BPDer will stay in therapy long enough to make a difference. To pull it off, she needs sufficient self awareness to see she has a problem and sufficient ego strength to tolerate several years of often-painful therapy.

A therapist who has treated many BPD couples says that BPD relationships typically last either 18 months or 15 years. They last 18 months, he explains, when the Non has strong personal boundaries. In that case, the Non enjoys the 6 month honeymoon period of mirroring and then is willing to spend up to a year trying to reestablish the honeymoon conditions. Then he bails.

The relationship lasts 15 years, he explains, when the Non has strong codependency traits and thus has low personal boundaries. Such a Non typically never bails. Instead, the BPDer leaves him because, as the years go by, she becomes increasingly resentful of his inability to make her happy or fix her. Also, she may become increasingly fearful of abandonment as she sees her body aging. This explanation struck a strong chord with me because my relationship lasted 15 years, at which time my wife had me arrested on a trumped up charge and filed a restraining order barring me from my own home for a year and a half (when the divorce was finalized).

*Second,* if you think you may stay with her a while, I suggest you get _Stop Walking on Eggshells_, the best-selling BPD book targeted to spouses like you. Or, if you are decided to get a divorce instead, get _Splitting: Protecting Yourself when Divorcing a Borderline or Narcissist_. Both books are written by the same author.

*Third,* I suggest you start participating (or at least lurking) at BPDfamily.com -- the largest and most active BPD forum I've found that is devoted fully to the spouses and family members of BPDers. It offers eight separate message boards on various BPD issues. The ones that likely will be most helpful to you are the "Staying" board and "Leaving" board."

*Fourth,* while you are at BPDfamily.com, I suggest you read the excellent articles in their resources section. My favorite is "Surviving a Breakup with Someone with BPD" at T9 Surviving a Break-up with Someone Suffering with Borderline Personality Disorder - Columbia University, New York. And, if you have not already done so, I suggest you read my brief overview of BPD traits in Maybe's thread at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522.

*Fifth,* I suggest you see a clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two _by yourself_ -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you are dealing with -- and how likely it is she may pass it on to your son. As I've explained in many other threads, your best chance of getting a candid opinion regarding a possible BPD diagnosis is to NOT have the BPDer along. Therapists are loath to tell high functioning BPDers the name of the disorder.

*Finally*, please don't forget those of us on this TAM forum. We want to keep trying to answer your questions and providing emotional support as long as you find our shared experiences helpful. Moreover, you likely will be helping numerous other members and lurkers by sharing your own experiences. Take care, IThink.


----------



## argyle (May 27, 2011)

Y'know, your wife sounds like a difficult woman to live with.

The question is not whether or not your marriage can be saved. Of course it can be. Give in constantly and suffer a lot. Give up everything that makes life worth living. She'll probably stay - at least until you break under the strain.

The question is whether or not you choose to stay in a marriage with someone who's mentally ill and what sort of compromises will be necessary to stay. That's a decision you need to make for yourself. 

Stuff to consider:
(a) The sane response to being in a R/S with a BPD is to leave. So, if you're considering staying, please see a therapist for yourself - at the very least for support. This is generally considered a wise practice for therapists seeing BPDs, so you'd be well-advised to do the same. They are very toxic people.
(b) BPD is not particularly responsive to medication, so don't hope for a quick fix. Therapy takes a few years to work - and don't expect miracles.
(c) narcissistic personality disorder is commonly co-morbid with BPD (~30%). NPD is not particularly responsive to drugs or therapy. The Wizard of Oz and Other Narcissists is one of the better books available. If your wife is significantly NPD, you have a harder row to hoe. If your wife is all about 'hurt feelings', then BPD is more reasonable. If your wife is not easily hurt, but will go berserk over perceived insults to her perfection, you might be looking at NPD.

...overall, if you're looking at BPD, it is reasonable to visit BPDFamily and think things through. If you're looking at NPD, there are a couple of regulars there married to NPDs. Based on their experience, you're looking at a literal lifetime of misery if you stay. It really isn't worth it. Oh, and don't have kids with an NPD, they're genuinely impaired and very likely to abuse children. BPDs are just bad parents.

--Argyle


----------



## stu2000 (Oct 4, 2012)

BPD is a terrible disorder, my wife was diagnosed with it and went through some counseling (6months but wasnt enough). For the past 11 years it has been so hard and everything has been my fault. She said she felt unloved but constantly did loving things for her. 6 days out of 7 we were very happy but on the 7th any small thing would cause war. I constantly did loving things for her and always was there to help her in need but was always told she felt unloved. It is very confusing and hurtful. We have separated a few times only for a couple of weeks but always would get back together and would be fine at start but then things would go back to normal. She used facebook a lot to make friends as she finds it hard in person and went searching for something she thought she was missing. She ended up in contact with her ex of years gone past and had an affair, of course during that who time of conversations online i was the one being accused of having an affair. 
Now after 11 years she left again and taken 2 of my 3 children. Everything had been going well for the past year and we were considering moving together but she came home one day after being at her friends and told me she was moving and i wasnt.
She moved and we were friendly on phone and for weeks wanted to get back and then literally the next day said we were over for good and would NEVER be getting back together. The day after that told me she had a date in a few days and i should just get on with my life, that i could never make her happy. She always believed in our relationship that everything was terrible and saw everything in black and white. We had a lot more good times than bad and its hard to take when someone tells you this. After 11 years i think this is it, i dont think my heart can take much more of this pain and think i should let her go. She prob will start a great relationship with this new person and will be great for a while but her unhappiness inside will always shine through. I have no doubt in a few months she will try and come back and it will literally happen overnight but think enough is enough for me.

Good luck with whatever happens


----------



## Sophie6 (Oct 10, 2012)

argyle said:


> Y'know, your wife sounds like a difficult woman to live with.
> 
> The question is not whether or not your marriage can be saved. Of course it can be. Give in constantly and suffer a lot. Give up everything that makes life worth living. She'll probably stay - at least until you break under the strain.
> 
> ...


I find the last part of your last paragraph offensive and sad. Sorry but my sister has BPD and she isn't a bad parent. She's actually a great parent! (


----------



## argyle (May 27, 2011)

Hi Sophie,

I am sorry that I offended you. I am also willing to believe that there are some BPDs who are excellent parents. I am glad that your sister falls into that category. 
My opinion was mostly shaped both by my own experiences with my wife and by reading many accounts of children raised by BPDs on BPDFamily. They have a rather active subforum devoted to children dealing with mental illness, PTSD, and other issues related to terrible parenting by BPDs. Many of those children, as adults, have clearly been permanently crippled by their upbringing. Based on my research, it seems unlikely that those children are unusual.
I should have said that, as far as I can tell, most BPDs are bad parents* and that having children with an NPD is usually a mistake. Generalizing to all BPDs and NPDs was not fair.

--Argyle
*I will be fair. Most BPDs seem to be fairly average parents until age 3. Parenting issues tend to increase exponentially as the children age and individuate themselves from the mother. The problem is that splitting a child either black or white is terribly harmful to the child - and very likely to occur once the BPD sees the child as a separate individual. Some children cope by not individuating, but that isn't optimal either. The constant abandonment and emotional meltdown's don't help much either. Self-aware BPDs may be able to compensate, but I tend to think of them as 'BPD tendencies' instead of full-blown BPD.
NPDs, OTOH, eh, seem to be recognizable mostly through horrific domestic violence and systematic abuse - both of spouses and children. Lucky spouses seem to experience mostly neglect.
Still, overall, given either a diagnosis of BPD or NPD for one partner, barring other significant issues (eg, drug abuse), I'd be inclined to recommend sole custody to the non-mentally-ill parent and supervised visitation to the BPD/NPD. There are exceptions, but, they aren't worth the risk. I know at least one woman who stays primarily because her NPD husband has made it reasonably clear that, if she leaves, he will get partial custody and abuse their children to hurt her.


----------



## Sophie6 (Oct 10, 2012)

argyle said:


> Hi Sophie,
> 
> I am sorry that I offended you. I am also willing to believe that there are some BPDs who are excellent parents. I am glad that your sister falls into that category.
> My opinion was mostly shaped both by my own experiences with my wife and by reading many accounts of children raised by BPDs on BPDFamily. They have a rather active subforum devoted to children dealing with mental illness, PTSD, and other issues related to terrible parenting by BPDs. Many of those children, as adults, have clearly been permanently crippled by their upbringing. Based on my research, it seems unlikely that those children are unusual.
> ...


Wow. Just wow. I'm sorry but I totally disagree with you. I'm 33, a sex abuse victim who suffers from depression (under treatment) and am soon going to be seeing a psychologist to be tested for BPD and Autism as my youngest daughter has Autism and as I said, my sister has BPD and I have done the online test for it and got 8/9. I've also scored on autism tests with a high degree of autistic traits. I have two girls ages 8 and 6. I grew up in a dysfunctional home... my mother suffered with depression and my father was abusive verbally calling me dumb and stupid etc. You say that BPDers usually damage their children and shouldn't have custody of them. Well there are parents out there that don't have mental illness and are still abusive to their kids (like my father - he was a police officer for years and it was a very stressful job). I was molested by my best friends father. How about we just keep kids away from ALL adults? What gets me even more upset is that it's mental illness. We can't control it. I didn't ask to be molested. I suffer from depression and most probably BPD because of that, and because of my home environment. None of that was my fault. Yet you think we should be punished further by not having custody of our own flesh and blood? I would die if my kids were taken off me. I would kill myself. I am actually glad/grateful for everything I've been through because while I have mental illness it has made me a better person... I'm caring and compassionate, non judgemental and loving and I don't intentionally hurt people. I'm understanding about mental illness and a really good friend. I know many people that don't have mental illness yet they are not nice people... they are judgemental, selfish and have no compassion/sympathy and one of them would be my sisters ex (father of her child who left because he wasn't earning a regular steady income and she asked him to find a new job that paid regularly and he wouldn't because he likes his job so that was more important to him than providing for his family obviously). I could go on about him but won't. I do have to say she is a better parent than he is. When he takes care of him, he doesn't pay attention to him and is too busy doing his thing. When she is sick or can't take care of him for whatever reason he doesn't want to take care of him and usually says no unless she won't leave him alone. For example... she came over here one day so I could take care of him because his father wouldn't and she was so crook and he only wanted her because she's mummy and I had to get on the phone after my sister had already spoken to his father and I had to tell him he needed to come get his son. My sister will put aside everything for her son. She is a great mother. 
Finally, I am wondering whether I want to be labelled with BPD when there seem to be so many people that think we are horrible people. Also, we are people not labels. We're not BPDers. We are people with BPD. Just like kids are not autistic... they have autism. Mental illness does not define us. We are still people with feelings. And we can't help the way we are. I think we've been punished enough in life..... 
This will be my last post here. This last one was probably a complete waste of my time. But anyway... I had to say it. 

It is sad in this day and age that so many people are still ignorant about mental illness. We are not monsters. Everyone makes mistakes/hurts others and everyone deserves forgiveness IMO I've forgiven my parents and the man that molested me. I'm not crippled either. I can still hold down a job and do everything everyone else can. Anyway.... I'll leave it at that.


----------



## Schofield25 (Oct 10, 2012)

very sorry for your stress.


----------



## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

For the record...BPD is NOT a mental illness, it IS a personality disorder. I also am a BPD'er with custody of my children.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DrDavidCOlsen (Oct 7, 2012)

While the situation sounds very stressful, be very careful about using diagnoses like BPD. Once we put a label on someone, we will always see them through that label, which will always make things worse. The reality of marriage is we create each other and even unconsciously shape each other. Before trying to diagnose your partner, get some good couple therapy by a skilled marital therapist.
DrDavidCOlsen, author, "The Couple's Survival Workbook"


----------



## SCondeck (Oct 5, 2012)

BPDSpouse, you are in the same exact situation as myself. You've described my own wife to a T. Our marriage has lasted 18 months exactly, just like Uptown said. However, the reasons were the same as what he mentioned in the 15 years section.

"The relationship lasts 15 years, he explains, when the Non has strong codependency traits and thus has low personal boundaries. Such a Non typically never bails. Instead, the BPDer leaves him because, as the years go by, she becomes increasingly resentful of his inability to make her happy or fix her. Also, she may become increasingly fearful of abandonment as she sees her body aging."

That exactly describes our situation, ecxept it's 18 months instead of 15 years. Wow, being on this sight has completely opened my eyes! Thank you so much Uptown for sharing this information and helping me, and hopefully others in our situation, that we are not as horrible as we have been painted out to be.


----------



## dark side king (Nov 25, 2012)

Very insightful thoughts here, and I have been gaining solid perspective for the last 2 weeks from this board. Similar situation with my W of 20 years, and I'm finally understanding the bigger picture of our own struggles. 

Having been in the field of inpatient psychology for 7-8 years, and in graduate course work for substance abuse counseling, the first hand accounts of Non BPDers is very helpful.....


----------



## Amyd (Nov 12, 2012)

pidge70 said:


> For the record...BPD is NOT a mental illness, it IS a personality disorder. I also am a BPD'er with custody of my children.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



BPD is confusing to the general public. Plus, each person who has BPD is unique. I show more of the symptoms of the "quiet borderline" and my rages are internal.


----------



## dark side king (Nov 25, 2012)

Amyd said:


> BPD is confusing to the general public. Plus, each person who has BPD is unique. I show more of the symptoms of the "quiet borderline" and my rages are internal.


It seems that you have a healthy sense of self awareness, which speaks to recovery. My wife does not admit that her anger outbursts, which occur almost daily now and are more volatile too, are escalating and possibly dangerous. Even though she admits that she doesn't like the feelings she has after being angry, she continues to behave in very unpredictable ways. Telling her that I must remain in the home because I don't know how she may react towards the kids only seems to have broken her heart.


----------



## Amyd (Nov 12, 2012)

dark side king said:


> It seems that you have a healthy sense of self awareness, which speaks to recovery. My wife does not admit that her anger outbursts, which occur almost daily now and are more volatile too, are escalating and possibly dangerous. Even though she admits that she doesn't like the feelings she has after being angry, she continues to behave in very unpredictable ways. Telling her that I must remain in the home because I don't know how she may react towards the kids only seems to have broken her heart.


If she is a danger to herself or others she needs to be hospitalized. Period. You cannot guard your children 24/7. 

(I was never a danger to others - only to myself.)


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Amyd said:


> (I was never a danger to others - only to myself.)


Yes, my experience, Amyd, is that those of you who primarily "act in," instead of "acting out," are far harder on yourselves than anyone else.


----------



## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

Amyd said:


> BPD is confusing to the general public. Plus, each person who has BPD is unique. I show more of the symptoms of the "quiet borderline" and my rages are internal.


Correct me if I'm wrong but, you have NOT been formally diagnised with BPD. This is exactly the sort of thing I was talking about in my own thread. People diagnosing themselves.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Amyd (Nov 12, 2012)

Uptown said:


> Yes, my experience, Amyd, is that those of you who primarily "act in," instead of "acting out," are far harder on yourselves than anyone else.


LOL - You sound like my husband


----------



## Amyd (Nov 12, 2012)

pidge70 said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but, you have NOT been formally diagnised with BPD. This is exactly the sort of thing I was talking about in my own thread. People diagnosing themselves.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


True enough. But I was in the social work field for five years and my job function was to see 8-10 patients a day for individual counseling. Also, I discussed my issues with my psychiatrist and he agreed I have BPD traits. So perhaps I don't qualify as having the full diagnosis but I suffer enough that my symptoms ruin my life. Here is some of what I feel daily:

1. Impairments in Identity:

Markedly impoverished, poorly developed, or unstable self-image, often associated with excessive self-criticism; chronic feelings of emptiness; dissociative states under stress.

2. Impairments in Intimacy:

Intense, unstable, and conflicted close relationships, marked by mistrust, neediness, and anxious preoccupation with real or imagined abandonment; close relationships often viewed in extremes of idealization and devaluation and alternating between over involvement and withdrawal.


3. Emotional lability: 

Unstable emotional experiences and frequent mood changes; emotions that are easily aroused, intense, and/or out of proportion to events and circumstances.

4. Suicidal or Self-injurious Behaviors:

Recurrent suicidal attempts, gestures, threats, or self-injurious behaviors are the hallmark of the borderline patient. The criterion is so prototypical of persons with BPD that the diagnosis rightly comes to mind whenever recurrent self-destructive behaviors are encountered. Self-destructive acts often start in early adolescence and are usually precipitated by threats of separation or rejection or by expectations that the BPD patient assume unwanted responsibilities. The presence of this pattern assists the diagnosis of concurrent BPD in patients whose presenting symptoms are depression or anxiety.


(It's explained in much more detail on my blog.)

“You know you


----------



## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

Amyd said:


> True enough. But I was in the social work field for five years and my job function was to see 8-10 patients a day for individual counseling. Also, I discussed my issues with my psychiatrist and he agreed I have BPD traits. So perhaps I don't qualify as having the full diagnosis but I suffer enough that my symptoms ruin my life. Here is some of what I feel daily:
> 
> 1. Impairments in Identity:
> 
> ...




Everyone exhibits BPD traits at one point or another. If the above 4 are the only ones you exhibit then you do not qualify as being BPD.

A pervasive pattern of instability of interpersonal relationships, self-image, and affects, and marked impulsivity beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following: 

1. frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment. Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in Criterion 5.

2. a pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation. 

3. identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self. 

4. impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., spending, sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating). Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in Criterion 5. 

5. recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-mutilating behavior 

6. affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days). 

7. chronic feelings of emptiness 

8. inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights) 

9. transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms 


Borderline Personality Disorder DSM IV Diagnosis


----------



## Amyd (Nov 12, 2012)

pidge70 said:


> Everyone exhibits BPD traits at one point or another. If the above 4 are the only ones you exhibit then you do not qualify as being BPD.
> 
> A pervasive pattern of instability of interpersonal relationships, self-image, and affects, and marked impulsivity beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:
> 
> ...



Pidge - you need to read the current research. The DSM-IV is limited - take a look at the DSM 5. 

Borderline Personality Disorder: Big Changes in the DSM-5 | Psychology Today

The DSM -5 is more trait focused and stresses that BPD is an interpersonal disorder. I'd rather not have BPD. Trust me. I'd rather not.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Amyd said:


> The DSM -5 is more trait focused and stresses that BPD is an interpersonal disorder.


Amy, my understanding is that DSM-5 is not "more trait focused" than DSM-IV. That is not even possible. I say this because, in 1980, the APA adopted a diagnostic methodology for personality disorders (PDs) that is based _ENTIRELY_ on behavioral traits, i.e., behavioral symptoms. They did so because their earlier efforts to diagnose PDs based on more objective, non-trait factors -- as is done in the hard sciences -- proved to be a total disaster. 

Hence, given that DSM III and IV methodologies for diagnosing PDs have been based 100% on behavioral traits since 1980, there is no way to make DSM-5 "more trait focused." Similarly, DSM-III and DSM-IV have been stressing "that BPD is an interpersonal disorder" since 1980. So that is not being changed either as far as I know.

As to the nine BPD traits that Pidge listed, those appear to be retained also. Although they are regrouped and reorganized somewhat, all nine of them have been included. The regrouping is necessary to make it clearer that the nine traits are not all of equal importance in the diagnosis. Moreover, the APA may decide to drop one of the traits but I would be surprised if they do.

Until two weeks ago, I could have provided you a link to the new draft language. Yet, because they have started making substantial revisions again, they have password-protected the site to prevent public access during the revision process. We therefore may not know the final result until DSM-5 is released this May.

Although DSM-5 appears to make minor changes, if any, in the two factors you mention, it nonetheless is making a HUGE change in the diagnosis of BPD and all other PDs. It is abandoning the absurd dichotomous approach. This "yes or no" binary approach makes perfect sense in every field of the medical sciences, where clients are found to either have a disease or not. This is why, in the medical sciences, "disorder" means "disease." In psychiatry, however, it does not mean that with respect to PDs. There is NO KNOWN DISEASE that causes any of the PDs. Hence, in psychiatry, "disorder" simply means "group of dysfunctional symptoms typically occurring together" (aka a "syndrome").

Of course, the psychiatric community knew in 1980 that this dichotomous approach makes no sense at all for PDs because they are "spectrum disorders" and, as such, vary in intensity from person to person. That is, everyone has all nine BPD traits to some degree. The APA therefore knew it is senseless to say a person meeting only 95% of the diagnostic criteria "has no disorder" and a person meeting 100% "has the disorder."

Doing so is as silly as diagnosing everyone under 6'4" as "short" and everyone under 250 pounds as "skinny." The psychiatric community adopted this silly approach only because the insurance companies -- who were long accustomed to "yes or no" diagnosis from the medical community -- insisted on a single, bright line being drawn between those clients they would cover and those they would not cover.

Over the past three decades, however, the psychiatric community (APA) eventually realized the insurance companies had betrayed them because, despite this act of appeasement, these companies still refused to cover BPD treatments. In addition, the APA members realized that, if they are ever to be taken seriously by the rest of the scientific community, they would have to abandon this absurd approach to identifying personality disorders.

This is why the dichotomous approach is being fully abandoned for all PDs in DSM-5. It is being replaced -- indeed, has already been replaced in the draft manual -- by a graduated approach which measures five levels of severity.


----------



## dark side king (Nov 25, 2012)

What is very challenging to me is that most other diagnostic tools in the DSM are based on observable behavior. Cluster B is close to impossible to detect among the high-functioning, and thus even more problematic. For many of us who live with someone who is yet unaware of their condition, by the time observable behavior is evident, we will usually be gone from this earth......

Amyd and pidge, you both give me hope that treatment can be effecive.....Thanks to you both


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

dark side king said:


> Cluster B is close to impossible to detect among the high-functioning.


Yes, DarkSide, it is difficult for folks outside the home to see this in HF BPDers because, by definition, a BPDer is "high functioning" when she interacts very well with casual friends, business associates, her psychologist, and total strangers. None of those folks trigger a HF BPDer's rage because they pose no threat to her two great fears: abandonment and engulfment. There is no close relationship to be abandoned and no intimacy to cause engulfment. Hence, those folks typically never see the BPDer's dark side (unless they make the mistake of trying to become a close friend). As to the psychologist, he may have to see her for two years to see the abusive behavior that her partner sees every other week, if not more often.


> For many of us who live with someone who is yet unaware of their condition, by the time observable behavior is evident, we will usually be gone from this earth.


I disagree if you are talking about the partners and spouses of BPDers and NPDers. The traits should become evident at the end of the courtship period, when the BPDer's infatution over you has evaporated. The problem is that, by that time, we have fallen in love with them and therefore often chose to ignore all the danger signs we are seeing. 

Hence, it is VERY EASY for the abused partners and spouses to see strong occurrences of BPD and NPD traits -- once they get past the courtship/infatuation period. Indeed, when you are living with a BPDer for a year, you would have to be deaf, dumb, blind, and stupid not to see strong occurrences of BPD traits. There is nothing subtle about behavioral traits such as strong verbal abuse, frequent temper tantrums, and very irrational jealousy. 

The reason, of course, is that "high functioning" means the BPDer is able to hide her traits from those who are _not close to her_. She is NOT able to hide them (beyond the courtship period) from her loved ones. This is why it is common to see a HF BPDer treat total strangers with kindness all day long -- and then go home at night to abuse the very people who love her. This, at least, is my experience.


> Amyd and pidge, you both give me hope that treatment can be effecive.


DarkSide, please keep in mind that, although effective treatment programs are available all over the country, it is rare for a HF BPDer to have the self awareness and ego strength needed to take advantage of them. It is difficult to persuade them to seek therapy. Even if you do, they likely will promptly quit or switch to another therapist. 

Further, even if you successfully get them to remain in therapy -- as I did for 15 years with my exW at great expense -- they may choose to only play mind games with the psychologist. I spent over $200,000 on her weekly visits with six different psychologists. Therapist Shari Schreiber says that people like Pidge and Amy are rare jewels, which is why I am always so delighted to meet self-aware, treated BPDers here on TAM. I have never knowingly met such a person in my private life even though I've met and enjoyed the company of many HF BPDers. Schreiber says you have a better chance flying to the moon strapped to a banana than ever seeing a BPDer stay in therapy long enough to make a difference.


----------



## Amyd (Nov 12, 2012)

Uptown<

Here is why I stated that the DSM 5 is more trait focused:

Brief Rationale and Status of the Development of a Trait Dimensional Diagnostic System for Personality Disorder in DSM-5

The DSM-5 Personality and Personality Disorders Work Group and work group consultants (Drs. David Watson and Kristian Markon, with Jaime Derringer serving as the lead Research Assistant) began with existing models and measures of maladaptive personality traits, as summarized in a 2004 pre-DSM-5 research planning meeting. That meeting resulted in a consensus that broad domains of personality focused on introversion (what we have termed detachment, because concerns were raised that the term “introversion” does not adequately convey the maladaptive aspects of this domain), antagonism, impulsivity (what we have termed disinhibition, to recognize the breadth of this domain relative to impulsivity as a narrower, more specific manifestation), and emotional dysregulation (here termed negative affectivity, to recognize the breadth of this domain relative to emotional lability as a narrower, more specific manifestation) could serve as an organizing framework for numerous models of personality disorder (PD) traits.

http://www.dsm5.org/Documents/APA Trait System Rationale.pdf


----------



## Amyd (Nov 12, 2012)

In the end...

"You know you're borderline when Marsha Linehan is your Buddha."


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Amyd said:


> Uptown< Here is why I stated that the DSM 5 is more trait focused: Brief Rationale and Status of the Development of a Trait Dimensional Diagnostic System for Personality Disorder in DSM-5


Amy, thanks for the cite. I can see why you were misled. That "Rationale" is as clear as mud and very misleading. The "Trait Diagnostic System" had been developed over three decades earlier and is simply being reorganized, with some categories being folded into others. That will be evident if you look at the nine BPD criteria Pidge shows above for DSM-IV. ALL NINE of them are nothing more than behavioral traits. 

Hence, the big new "development" is not a trait based system. Rather, it is the "Trait *Dimensional* Diagnostic System." That is, they are adding "dimensions" to the traits. The big change, then, is not the TRAITS but, rather, the DIMENSIONS. As I noted above, the major change is the replacement of the absurd dichotomous approach with a graduated (i.e., "dimensional") approach to rendering diagnosis. 

This is a fancy way of saying that psychologists will start estimating the severity of the BPD traits (in 5 levels of severity) -- not whether we have them or not. In this way, the psychiatric community is finally abandoning the embarrassing pretense that BPD (and other PDs) are something one "has" or "doesn't have." That nonsense has mislead the lay public into believing that BPD traits are something you have or don't have -- like chickenpox.


----------

