# emotionally distant husband says he loves me less after every fight.what to do?



## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

hi,

I'm feeling lost and came here for advice/opinions.thank you for reading and any help.

my husband is 33 and im 27.we have been married for 4 years.he is a faithful man who used to love me completely in the beginning.and i love him so much.

since the last 2 years he has been changing.it's a gradual thing. but by now it's very clear he is different.

1st i ll list the changes.

1) he used to talk with me.he used to actually express opinions,tell me things that has happened to him,ask questions and have conversations with me. now whatever i say he just says ok.won't even look at me when im talking to him

2)he used to be very fun to be with. he would make faces,tickle me,make me laugh.but he never does those things now.never smiles with me

3)his kissing and hugging is half-hearted. like he is doing it because he has to (kind of-she gave me one so i shall too-)

4)he is always on the phone/ipad browsing his fb feed.and i think he is doing it to avoid talking with me

5)he used to send me e-cards,massage me,wash me.those things are gone

6)when i was angry with him for not calling me etc (silly lovers fights) he would try to make me laugh and make me talk.now he won't do anything

still,we enjoy watching TV together,he tells me he loves me,he satisfies me sexually and seems to enjoy it.he gave me nice gifts on vday etc it's not like i don't feel love.but i feel it less than before.

over the months, i ve requested a few times to talk with me,to hug me properly etc but seems he doesn't want to.
so today i asked why are you like this.he said "each fight has made me love you a bit less.so I'm not going to be that person again" 

all married couples fight.for me, i forget it in a few days.but,it seems like he is keeping it all inside his mind forever.the fights he referring to are usual fights which happens between married people.i don't even remember what we fought about.

I'm guessing those fights hurt him/he hates fighting and he has distanced himself from me to stop the fights effecting him.i know he was cold and distant with everyone.not talking much etc.and when we were dating, (we met 7 years ago) one day after a fight he texted me " i have taken you inside and you have hurt me". i think he has this huge emotional wall.so i guess after each fight,he has been pushing me out and now im outside and the wall is up.i think the emotional wall came in to existence because of being hurt in his childhood.


so... how do i help him to fight and forget it and carry on normally without losing a "bit of love" every time we fight? (im guessing maybe he is keeping track of the fights because he doesn't express feelings when fighting and keeps everything bottled up.if he had some kind of closure he wouldn't cling to the fights and finish it then and there?) 

how do i help him be emotionally available to me again?

any good books on the subjects of emotional walls,fighting and moving on etc?

thank you.

i'm posting this here and on another forum with medical focus.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

How long have you been together prior to marriage?

I would recommend marriage counseling asap.


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

we have been together for 3 years before marriage.. (not living together.only having a relationship)


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

What happens during the fights? Any name calling or bad behaviour? How are they usually resolved?


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

I'm guessing that your "silly lover's fights" are not silly to him and there's a lot more going on than you're letting on.

Do you insult or call names? Hit? Are demeaning?

When I've acted the way he's acting in the past it's because I'm very hurt and don't trust the other person enough to open up any more.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

finding-a-path said:


> we have been together for 3 years before marriage.. (not living together.only having a relationship)


Great, so well past the honeymoon phase. Good.

So tell us a bit more about exactly HOW you guys fight. Is there any anger, screaming, emotion etc going on? Are you guys fighting fair (talk like adults) or is it more like to cats going at each other?


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> What happens during the fights? Any name calling or bad behaviour? How are they usually resolved?


no name calling.i become normal in 2-3 days, he becomes normal in around 7 days. (but he has kept the memory where else i forget things)


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

finding-a-path said:


> *no name calling*.i become normal in 2-3 days, he becomes normal in around 7 days. (but he has kept the memory where else i forget things)


You still didn't' answer his/or my question though (well, partly, in bold only)


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

marduk said:


> I'm guessing that your "silly lover's fights" are not silly to him and there's a lot more going on than you're letting on.
> 
> Do you insult or call names? Hit? Are demeaning?
> 
> When I've acted the way he's acting in the past it's because I'm very hurt and don't trust the other person enough to open up any more.


no. i don't insult , i don't call names, i don't hit, i don't demean him... let's say i told him "you did'nt call me on lunch time" he could just say oh i forgot. but he starts saying ok find someone else then... then it becomes a fight.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

finding-a-path said:


> no name calling.i become normal in 2-3 days, he becomes normal in around 7 days. (but he has kept the memory where else i forget things)


So are things actually resolved when the fight is over? Why does it take days to get through it? What happens in those days where you are not "normal"? Silent treatments and/or still being upset or are you communicating and solving things throughout the whole time?


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

DoF said:


> Great, so well past the honeymoon phase. Good.
> 
> So tell us a bit more about exactly HOW you guys fight. Is there any anger, screaming, emotion etc going on? Are you guys fighting fair (talk like adults) or is it more like to cats going at each other?


 ok.. let's think about one time.he was calling a friend while we were watching a movie and the call lasted more than 15 minutes.so i said something like couple time is disturbed. i expected he would say something like "sorry let's watch it now" but he started going on about what's your problem when i talk with him etc and it became a fight. then he screams at me, i cry, and he goes to another room. then he won't look at me and won't talk for a few days and then it's back to normal.that's how it happens. it feels like whenever he can say sorry and stop it, he doesn't. instead he turns it around on me an i end up saying sorry.


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> So are things actually resolved when the fight is over? Why does it take days to get through it? What happens in those days where you are not "normal"? Silent treatments and/or still being upset or are you communicating and solving things throughout the whole time?


not resolved. not like "ok this happened because we did that. let's not do it next time, im sorry" i just forget and seems he keeps resentment inside. 

in the not normal days, he wouldn't hug or kiss. wouldn't use the name he uses me. talks in the "angry" tone etc.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

For someone who hates fighting, why does he escalate situations into them? 
Screaming, not looking at you for days, angry tone for days- none of that is healthy and if it's really the fighting that is causing him to lose love then he needs to start fixing his own side of the mess to prevent them too. 
Has he ever told you anything he wants you to change during a fight or to prevent them?


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> For someone who hates fighting, why does he escalate situations into them?
> Screaming, not looking at you for days, angry tone for days- none of that is healthy and if it's really the fighting that is causing him to lose love then he needs to start fixing his own side of the mess to prevent them too.
> Has he ever told you anything he wants you to change during a fight or to prevent them?


he screams only in that moment. then he just ignores me. i think it is because he thinks it will make me stop fighting next time.(like,if i let her see what happens when we fight,she won't fight next time)

yes. he told me don't talk about things while he is at work.so now i don't.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

This sounds a lot about my boyfriend.

Everyday small conflict (actually many things I would not even call "conflict", such as your description of your comment about couple time being disturbed by his phone call) is not handled well by him, is intolerable to him, and is completely blown out of proportion.

Everyday living/relationship issues, which should reasonably be solved with ease, are impossible to navigate, and become reasons for withdrawal of love.

I have been reading about borderline personality disorder, and the super sensitive aspect fits for my boyfriend. Maybe that is how your husband is wired......


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

How did you mean, "having a relationship"? Did you love in the same town, dating each other? A long distance relationship? Friends for years, but dated a short time?

What is both of your relationship history (i.e. prior dating partners)?

My vote, marriage counseling as well...

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

Livvie said:


> This sounds a lot about my boyfriend.
> 
> Everyday small conflict (actually many things I would not even call "conflict", such as your description of your comment about couple time being disturbed by his phone call) is not handled well by him, is intolerable to him, and is completely blown out of proportion.
> 
> ...


yes. little things become big fights...


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

PBear said:


> How did you mean, "having a relationship"? Did you love in the same town, dating each other? A long distance relationship? Friends for years, but dated a short time?
> 
> What is both of your relationship history (i.e. prior dating partners)?
> 
> ...


two different towns(90 minutes apart) boyfriend girlfriend for 3 years


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> For someone who hates fighting, why does he escalate situations into them?
> Screaming, not looking at you for days, angry tone for days- none of that is healthy and if it's really the fighting that is causing him to lose love then he needs to start fixing his own side of the mess to prevent them too.
> Has he ever told you anything he wants you to change during a fight or to prevent them?


This sounds like someone who is guilty and puts up an angry and defensive front to hide their wrongdoing. I think he's up to something and feels badly about it. He used to treat you well and now turns every comment into a fight, especially when you point out something small you would like to be different. It's not too much to ask that you don't spend 15 min on your phone in the middle of a movie you are both watching and I think deep down he knows that.

My H does the same thing. For years and years he defended his lack of respect in conversations. I would talk to the back of his head, he wouldn't make eye contact, yet he said he was listening and I shouldn't get upset. He would get mad at me for even requesting that he make eye contact with me. Deep down he knows, I'm sure, that making eye contact during a conversation shows basic respect but since he didn't feel like doing it he found it easier to be angry than to admit fault.


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

it seems every 3-4 months we have a big fight. about small stuff and they become big stuff. (by a big fight i mean not talking properly for 7-8 days, me crying him screaming at that moment and then ignoring me)


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

ebp123 said:


> This sounds like someone who is guilty and puts up an angry and defensive front to hide their wrongdoing. I think he's up to something and feels badly about it. He used to treat you well and now turns every comment into a fight, especially when you point out something small you would like to be different. It's not too much to ask that you don't spend 15 min on your phone in the middle of a movie you are both watching and I think deep down he knows that.
> 
> My H does the same thing. For years and years he defended his lack of respect in conversations. I would talk to the back of his head, he wouldn't make eye contact, yet he said he was listening and I shouldn't get upset. He would get mad at me for even requesting that he make eye contact with me. Deep down he knows, I'm sure, that making eye contact during a conversation shows basic respect but since he didn't feel like doing it he found it easier to be angry than to admit fault.



or could it be because he can't handle a fight so he is being defensive?:scratchhead:


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

have to go,will reply tomorrow thanks for the answers so far..


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

finding-a-path said:


> ok.. let's think about one time.he was calling a friend while we were watching a movie and the call lasted more than 15 minutes.so i said something like couple time is disturbed. i expected he would say something like "sorry let's watch it now" but he started going on about what's your problem when i talk with him etc and it became a fight. then he screams at me, i cry, and he goes to another room. then he won't look at me and won't talk for a few days and then it's back to normal.that's how it happens. it feels like whenever he can say sorry and stop it, he doesn't. instead he turns it around on me an i end up saying sorry.


This is not fair fighting.

It's also not adult like. Screaming? Not cool. You allow this?

And on top of it YOU appologise in the end? It seems like his "trick" of silence always seems to work so he does it every time. 

You become the bad guy, he wins.

First and foremost, you guys have to set some boundaries when it comes to arguments/fights.

No Anger
No screaming
No disrespect
Amongst other things (to be defined by you guys).

The goal here is to have a mature/respectful conversation like 2 adults should be doing.

If there is no flow of conversation, both parties listening etc you guys will never get anywhere.

Screaming has to stop. He seems to be getting his way with this and YOU allow it. 

Tell him that you will no longer put up with this behavior and allow him to treat you like this. He is more than welcome to have a open/mature conversation with you.

ANYTIME you sense anger/frustration etc, ignore him/walk away and never EVER apologize for HIS mistakes. 

You are enabling him and supporting his bad behavior. YOU have to change that first before he has to work on his end of things......


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

finding-a-path said:


> no. i don't insult , i don't call names, i don't hit, i don't demean him... let's say i told him "you did'nt call me on lunch time" he could just say oh i forgot. but he starts saying ok find someone else then... then it becomes a fight.


There's more here.

My gut is telling me this isn't the whole story.

What are you not telling us? What is he holding on to?


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

DoF said:


> This is not fair fighting.
> 
> It's also not adult like. Screaming? Not cool. You allow this?
> 
> ...



thank you. i think today im going to talk to him about how to fight fair.


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

marduk said:


> There's more here.
> 
> My gut is telling me this isn't the whole story.
> 
> What are you not telling us? What is he holding on to?


maybe you thought there's more because i mentioned he says "find someone else" no i didn't have an affair.whenever i say hug me or something that's what he says. "this is all i can do find someone else then" yes i can.but i love him. i wish he would understand that....  

he is holding on to past fights. he says those made him love me less.i'm heart broken over this. when we married i thought we will always love each other.at least i do. but he seems to be thinking best way to stop fighting is withdrawing in to a shell and not loving me


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## VeryHurt (Mar 11, 2011)

I'm thinking:

Attachment Disorder from an emotionally unavailable parent (s)

Emotionally immature

Some type of Personality Disorder

or he is harboring deep-seeded anger/resentment.


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## lancaster (Dec 2, 2013)

Sounds similar to my wife and I. I do not lose my temper, but I become cold and distant. She will lose her temper, and cuss at me. She always ends up crying. We say sorry, and about a month later repeat the same old play.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

I think you are dealing with an emotionally unavailable passive-aggressive husband.

You said that you guys used to be able to talk but did he actually go to you and create conversation and replying more so to what you were talking about?? Was he ever open with you about his thoughts, things he was thinking?? Did he ask you to do things with him?? Or were you the ideas person?

What is his dad like? was he an angry man that ruled the house with an iron fist and ignored his wife? Has your husband ever said anything about wanting to spend time with his dad but his dad was never home or always busy? How do his siblings and mother treat him now? Is he the golden child in their eyes, the person who can do no wrong?

You see a man brought up in a home whose father is unavailable to the children and to his wife passes a very bad example onto his sons, a picture of pure male dominance. This is now how relationships work. Many adults who have come from homes where there is abuse will disconnect, or cannot relate in relationships. They retreat inside themselves. Their lives as children was unsafe and so conflict makes them feel unsafe and they do not learn to deal with conflict or make emotional connections, even as adults this is not safe for them.

The passive-aggressive nature is where he is with-holding/ignoring, that is for power and control. What is underneath it is anger, anger that many times the person is not even aware of. The PA will make sure that you suffer for making him hurt. 

I have been married to a man like you described, also military, for 22 years. There has been LOTS of conflicts, things do not change. No matter how much you talk he will never budge from his stance. We have been to many counselors and they have tried to help us, me, him. He/we might do well for awhile but as soon as I lose hope, feel I can't go on (when I need the most support), or we have a conflict he retreats. He will not talk about it. It is like living with a child in many ways. There is no sharing, no mutual planning, raising children with him was H***!

My advise to you is to look up both "emotionally unavailable husband" and "passive-aggressive husband" and see if this fits. If so, run and do not look back. It does not get better. you will spend your life completely frustrated and very alone, living with a man who will not speak and has underlying anger issues.


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

OP if what you are saying is true, it sounds like whenever you challenge him on his behaviour, he will become aggressive and then use the silent treatment. 

Sounds emotionally abusive to me. 

And for him to say, he loves you less because of disagreements is ridiculous. It would be understandable if you were abusive etc.. But if you are not it's just another method of controlling you into never ever challenging him on anything ever. 

I would suggest you insist on counseling. If he says " you should go find someone else" say OK. And call his bluff. Call a lawyer and let him know he's either in the marraige wholeheartedly and he will help fix the problems, or it's time to move on.


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

VeryHurt said:


> I'm thinking:
> 
> Attachment Disorder from an emotionally unavailable parent (s)
> 
> ...


hmm.yes he did'nt have his father and his mom didn't live with him in the same house for years...what do you suggest i do to help him understand that him being distant because of fights is making our marriage suffer? 

and how do i get pass the emotional wall?

thank you for the insights


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## Omego (Apr 17, 2013)

I agree with what everyone is saying. I also find it worrisome that he will go for 7/8 days not talking to you. Small disagreements like this should be quickly resolved if the participants are emotionally healthy. If you feel like talking to him will not work, can you try writing an email to him explaining your feelings?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

lancaster said:


> Sounds similar to my wife and I. I do not lose my temper, but I become cold and distant. She will lose her temper, and cuss at me. She always ends up crying. We say sorry, and about a month later repeat the same old play.


3 differences. he loses his temper,i don't cuss,and he doesn't say sorry.

so, when you become cold and distant and then become normal again, do you feel you love her less...?


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

AVR1962 said:


> I think you are dealing with an emotionally unavailable passive-aggressive husband.
> 
> You said that you guys used to be able to talk but did he actually go to you and create conversation and replying more so to what you were talking about??yes Was he ever open with you about his thoughts, things he was thinking??yes Did he ask you to do things with him?? yesOr were you the ideas person?
> 
> ...


isn't there any hope? i love him and i do not want to leave him because of the incidents happened in his childhood and the way they have shaped him.. instead i want to be there for him and help him be able to put the guard down and feel the emotional connection and safety he once felt with me


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

*LittleDeer* said:


> OP if what you are saying is true, it sounds like whenever you challenge him on his behaviour, he will become aggressive and then use the silent treatment.
> 
> Sounds emotionally abusive to me.
> 
> ...


i don't even mean it as "challenging him" but yes, he seems to be taking things as challenges.

he's either in the marriage wholeheartedly and he will help fix the problems, or it's time to move on--that's what i tried to make him understand yesterday...


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

Omego said:


> I agree with what everyone is saying. I also find it worrisome that he will go for 7/8 days not talking to you. Small disagreements like this should be quickly resolved if the participants are emotionally healthy. If you feel like talking to him will not work, can you try writing an email to him explaining your feelings?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


he does not stay without talking for 7/8 days.he talks but makes sure to let me see that he is angry with me.difference in tone, not looking at me, not hugging etc

i can try the email thing. but i myself don't know where to start it...


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## Omego (Apr 17, 2013)

I would just start it the way you've started here and say you feel hurt by some of his reactions and ask him what he thinks. Maybe he will reply and you'll be able to start communicating better. Right now it seems as though he's put a wall up between you. I hope you work this out because it sounds like you love him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

so, i had a talk with him today too. 

1st i said let's agree on how to fight.i said when one of us is angry with the other one let's say "i'm angry with you because of x y and z" then the other person can explain why he/she did/say x y and z. and say sorry if needed. and then we will give 2 days time to cool down. and be normal. he said he ll try 

then he said i don't do "big" faults so you shouldn't fight with me for the little things.he expects me to just forget things like the call without mentioning anything.. and i think it is because he does not know how to handle it. when we were dating, say i said im angry with you you said you would call but you didn't. he would say pls don't be angry with me im sorry i forgot.but i think over time, when he had to do it many times, he started feeling hurt.and so to stop feeling hurt he is training his mind to keep distance and not to care...

so i said ok let's try not to fight then. there is a certain truth in what he says. he is a good man. faithful, honest, good provider,does not drink or smoke, does not watch porn, does not be on net chatting with other women etc... so he expects me to ignore the little things because he is a good man otherwise.

i asked do you have an emotional wall? he said yes.he said "it works for me" i asked do you become distant from people once they hurt you.he said yes.i try to be as distant as possible. then i asked so, am i inside the wall or outside.apparently im on the wall.so, how do i get in? how do i get him to open up to me again? how do i make him feel safe with me again? i now know he is not opening up because he is afraid of getting hurt....


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

if any of you know about a book which will help a man with an emotional wall realize how it affects his loved ones, how he can stop putting the wall up to protect himself from getting hurt, and how he can connect and feel safe with a loved one again please let me know? he is not open to marriage counseling but i think a book would do good.


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

Omego said:


> I would just start it the way you've started here and say you feel hurt by some of his reactions and ask him what he thinks. Maybe he will reply and you'll be able to start communicating better. Right now it seems as though he's put a wall up between you. I hope you work this out because it sounds like you love him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


yes i love him so much and he has told me in the past that I'm his purpose.that if he lost me he wouldn't know what to do. but now, since he doesn't want to get hurt he doesn't express feelings. now he only shows "i don't care" attitude.


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## Omego (Apr 17, 2013)

This is quite common for men I'd say. They clam up and become stoic or withdraw. I believe they have a harder time communicating. This has been my experience at any rate.
See how long you can get along together without any conflict arising. Small things like the phone call are annoying but just not worth the conflict. Try not to insist too much on asking him what's wrong, etc. I know it's easier said than done but it looks needy and that's not an attractive trait. Better to come vent here and back off a bit from trying to get more from him right now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lancaster (Dec 2, 2013)

finding-a-path said:


> 3 differences. he loses his temper,i don't cuss,and he doesn't say sorry.
> 
> so, when you become cold and distant and then become normal again, do you feel you love her less...?


Some people, me for example and perhaps your husband IDK, do not apologize unless they are ready to take steps to correct the behaviors they are going to apologize for. For me an apology is an action word. I usually only apologize to my wife now because she wants it. When i say sorry of my own accord it is because I am trying to effect change in some of my negative behaviors. 

For instance, I used to go to my parents house when we argued. She said she does not like me to leave when we argue. I said I was sorry and would not do that again. So now when we argue I do not leave. Is that how you and your husband apologize?

I do not know that I love my wife less after we argue, however I do believe that I close myself off a little more each time we fight. It is not a positive path for me to be on.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

It's natural for everyone to feel less love towards a person with whom they have just had an argument imo, but cruel to use that as a weapon to make a partner 'afraid'. If a person gets told, 'I love you less every time we argue', that will cause them to be fearful of being in a disagreement and therefore stifling their freedom to be themselves. It feels like an attempt to control another person's behaviour for their own benefit. Whether this behaviour is conscious or unconscious, it's still wrong. This is the same with the silent treatment and grudge holding, both attempts to make the other person fearful of disagreeing with them or of not conforming to how they want their partner to behave.

One thing you both need to start doing is active listening. If one partner is supposed to call the other but it just never happens, they always forget, stop repeating the same scene over and over expecting a different result. Ask what they would like to see happen and take on board what they'd prefer. He needs to stop trying to control you, but if you make him feel like he has a little more control over these situations, maybe that would help.

Think of it like you have a script for some of your arguments. Rewrite the script.


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

lancaster said:


> Some people, me for example and perhaps your husband IDK, do not apologize unless they are ready to take steps to correct the behaviors they are going to apologize for. For me an apology is an action word. I usually only apologize to my wife now because she wants it. When i say sorry of my own accord it is because I am trying to effect change in some of my negative behaviors.
> 
> For instance, I used to go to my parents house when we argued. She said she does not like me to leave when we argue. I said I was sorry and would not do that again. So now when we argue I do not leave. Is that how you and your husband apologize?
> 
> I do not know that I love my wife less after we argue, however I do believe that I close myself off a little more each time we fight. It is not a positive path for me to be on.


eye opening! i guess he is not saying sorry because he does not want to correct what happened/cant correct...

that is what he is doing too! the sentence i ve highlighted in red


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

Omego said:


> This is quite common for men I'd say. They clam up and become stoic or withdraw. I believe they have a harder time communicating. This has been my experience at any rate.
> See how long you can get along together without any conflict arising. Small things like the phone call are annoying but just not worth the conflict. Try not to insist too much on asking him what's wrong, etc. I know it's easier said than done but it looks needy and that's not an attractive trait. Better to come vent here and back off a bit from trying to get more from him right now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


thank you.. i will try to see how long we can be without any conflict.


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

breeze said:


> It's natural for everyone to feel less love towards a person with whom they have just had an argument imo, but cruel to use that as a weapon to make a partner 'afraid'. If a person gets told, 'I love you less every time we argue', that will cause them to be fearful of being in a disagreement and therefore stifling their freedom to be themselves. It feels like an attempt to control another person's behaviour for their own benefit. Whether this behaviour is conscious or unconscious, it's still wrong. This is the same with the silent treatment and grudge holding, both attempts to make the other person fearful of disagreeing with them or of not conforming to how they want their partner to behave.
> 
> One thing you both need to start doing is active listening. If one partner is supposed to call the other but it just never happens, they always forget, stop repeating the same scene over and over expecting a different result. Ask what they would like to see happen and take on board what they'd prefer. He needs to stop trying to control you, but if you make him feel like he has a little more control over these situations, maybe that would help.
> 
> Think of it like you have a script for some of your arguments. Rewrite the script.



thank you.i have received some very valuable insights by posting this.yes now im afraid to argue because he says 
he loves me less every time we argue. i think it might be to control me because he does not want to fight and get hurt.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

OP from reading from through your posts I think perhaps what he is trying to communicate is that he is feeling criticized at every turn. No one likes to be reminded constantly about all the things you perceive them to be doing wrong. Per your calling you example why does that need to be a discussion at all. As a matter of fact don't mention that he even took the call at all...then next time you are about to watch a movie Simply say hey when we watch movie together could we maybe put phones away. But you say that in a loving a sweet manor not a condescending and snarky manner. Before you get defensive on that and start proclaiming you're not think about seeing it through his eyes.

I disagree that all married couples fight....have difference of opinions of course but how you choose to handle them are either rational discussions or arguments. From your posts it sounds like everything you think he does wrong he is being admonished for. That would make me pull way back as well. I can't imagine anyone wanting to live like that. Things that honestly need to be discussed, discuss. Little minor things let them go and be sweet.... I think his attitude may improve.


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

Wolf1974 said:


> OP from reading from through your posts I think perhaps what he is trying to communicate is that he is feeling criticized at every turn. No one likes to be reminded constantly about all the things you perceive them to be doing wrong. Per your calling you example why does that need to be a discussion at all. As a matter of fact don't mention that he even took the call at all...then next time you are about to watch a movie Simply say hey when we watch movie together could we maybe put phones away. But you say that in a loving a sweet manor not a condescending and snarky manner. Before you get defensive on that and start proclaiming you're not think about seeing it through his eyes.
> 
> I disagree that all married couples fight....have difference of opinions of course but how you choose to handle them are either rational discussions or arguments. From your posts it sounds like everything you think he does wrong he is being admonished for. That would make me pull way back as well. I can't imagine anyone wanting to live like that. Things that honestly need to be discussed, discuss. Little minor things let them go and be sweet.... I think his attitude may improve.


thank you. im getting very valuable information here.. your post made me see this from his view.. i will definitely try what you have said here.


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

now i feel like i have a better understanding of the situation.. and i have some ideas to try to improve the situation/his mood. please let me know about a book for him too. not giving him to read now.but after i try these ideas and let him see that there is a change in me/the fights


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

finding-a-path said:


> thank you. i think today im going to talk to him about how to fight fair.


That would be a great start. Stick to it!!!


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

finding-a-path said:


> he does not stay without talking for 7/8 days.he talks but makes sure to let me see that he is angry with me.difference in tone, not looking at me, not hugging etc
> 
> i can try the email thing. but i myself don't know where to start it...


For whatever it's worth, I see a lot of MYSELF in your husband. Wife and I used to (and still do at times) the same thing. We just stop talking....are distant etc.

We have been doing better and simply coming to the table together and discussing issues at hand (mind you, our issues are nothing like yours)



finding-a-path said:


> eye opening! i guess he is not saying sorry because he does not want to correct what happened/cant correct...
> 
> that is what he is doing too! the sentence i ve highlighted in red


 Yep, I can relate to that too

OP, take a closer look at yourself and how you approach conflict as well. Your body language, look on your face, atmosphere you give off etc. 

There is times when I can sense ALL OF THE ABOVE from my wife before I even walk in the house. I'm not kidding, it's weird. And when I walk in, my sense is correct.

My wife can sniff it all out too!!!!

If you just smile, that over writes a LOT of those senses, helps a ton. Just be positive,optimistic and nice towards him. I have a feeling this alone will help you guys greatly with communication (he should be like that too).

Also, trust me on this, he does NOT lose love for you every time you communicate. It's his way of saying "I don't like to argue with you". 

Problem is, you too NEED to have conflicts and work together to resolve them. 

Write the "how to fight fairly rules" and both of you should read it/agree on it (edit it if needed).

This is a KEY to your future.

Sorry, but no such a thing as perfect relationship. It would be unrealistic for your husband to think that he can go entire life/relationship with no conflicts.

It's like with anything else. It doesn't really matter what happens in our lives, what matters is HOW WE DEAL with those things.

Both of your working together as a TEAM on issues that WILL come throughout your relationship will make your bond/relationship stronger and give you more chance to succeed.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

finding-a-path said:


> so, i had a talk with him today too.
> 
> 1st i said let's agree on how to fight.i said when one of us is angry with the other one let's say "i'm angry with you because of x y and z" then the other person can explain why he/she did/say x y and z. and say sorry if needed. and then we will give 2 days time to cool down. and be normal.


Here are some typical rules for fighting fair:

1. No name-calling (obviously)
2. Don't use the words "always" or "never", since they are seldom true (for example: "You always forget to do XYZ", or "You never support me", etc.
3. Don't bring up past fights or arguments, otherwise arguments drag out all night. Only argue about the topic on the table. 



> _then he said i don't do "big" faults so you shouldn't fight with me for the little things._


Simply telling someone how you feel about small things shouldn't be considered "fighting" in the first place. Maybe ask him how you are supposed to ask about the small things without making him upset?

Someone earlier suggested borderline personality disorder. He is certainly showing a LOT of red flags for BPD; holding long grudges, quick to take offense, thinks everyone is against him, etc. This might be helpful as a start:
9 Tips on How to Recognize Someone With Borderline Personality DisorderÂ*|Â*Carol W. Berman, M.D.

I mention this because if he has BPD then all the best advice in this thread would still not be enough to solve your problem. He would need therapy and specific treatment to deal with the BPD, otherwise he might change is behavior in some ways, but it would just show up in other ways.


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## VeryHurt (Mar 11, 2011)

Path ~

I think you can "find" some great advice with these posts.

I remember many years ago, a MC told me that two things that can ruin any relationship is CRITICISM AND SARCASM.

I am sticking with my original post:
Attachment Disorder (Dismissive Type)
Deep-seeded unresloved anger towards you that he may not be aware of.
Emotionally Immature
Perhaps an undiagnosed personality disorder

I am wondering if he actions or lack of communication qualifies as Emotionally abusive?

I think you and/or your husband need a professional to address your issues as we are TAM posters and not therapists.

Take Care ~


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

Theseus said:


> Here are some typical rules for fighting fair:
> 
> 1. No name-calling (obviously)
> 2. Don't use the words "always" or "never", since they are seldom true (for example: "You always forget to do XYZ", or "You never support me", etc.
> ...



he had BPD 5 years ago. he was on meds for 1 year and then the doctor said he is ok now. could it return? that time, the indicators were he was very angry after fights and would call me names,he had sad moods and angry moods which lasted 5 days or so.after meds, he doesn't call me names.he has never done it, not even once after the meds. but yes you are correct about "holding long grudges, quick to take offense."had those qualities then, has those qualities now..

after reading your post im afraid it is returning though not as serve before/it has not been cured completely...


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

finding-a-path said:


> he had BPD 5 years ago. he was on meds for 1 year and then the doctor said he is ok now. could it return? that time, the indicators were he was very angry after fights and would call me names,he had sad moods and angry moods which lasted 5 days or so.after meds, he doesn't call me names.he has never done it, not even once after the meds. but yes you are correct about "holding long grudges, quick to take offense."had those qualities then, has those qualities now..
> 
> after reading your post im afraid it is returning though not as serve before/it has not been cured completely...



WOW. If you already know he has BPD, then the answer was already staring you right in the face! 

People who are BPD are stuck at a children's emotional level and don't develop real confidence and sense of self. 

I think you misunderstand something here; BPD is like most disorders, it is never really "cured". It can only be treated and managed.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

I think the OP may mean BPD as bipolar disorder rather than borderline?


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

Livvie said:


> I think the OP may mean BPD as bipolar disorder rather than borderline?


BPD means borderline personality disorder, not bi-polar, although it's true it's easy to confuse them (Bipolar used to be called "manic depressive" so there was less confusion then). 

The OP might have meant bi-polar but honestly her description of her husband fits BPD much better.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

Here's what I have come to learn in my own life and observations.

You are right, every couple has arguments or fights. It's human nature.

I remember our wedding. The priest began his preaching. Most weddings I go to, the preaching is something about how wonderful love is, et. but this Priest talked to us about forgiveness and 'letting it go'. He said "that is the most important thing to remember and what you will have to learn.

What I have learned is that arguments and hurts can go 2 ways in the long run. We can take them to heart, be wounded forever and store them in our psyche, doing irripairable damage like your HB.

On the other hand, we can see it as a challenge. If you choose to forgive, and the offense is not greivious like cheating then you become stronger, more bonded, closer, and in the long run your love will be tested by fire. That's the most beautiful love of all.

You've been through it all. All the laughs, togetherness, all the hurts, the anger, the joy. You've been through it all, and forgave and still together.


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

Livvie said:


> I think the OP may mean BPD as bipolar disorder rather than borderline?


yes.sorry i meant bi-polar disorder.


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

jorgegene said:


> Here's what I have come to learn in my own life and observations.
> 
> You are right, every couple has arguments or fights. It's human nature.
> 
> ...



i will try to help him to convert from the 1st way to the 2nd way you described..


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

finding-a-path said:


> isn't there any hope? i love him and i do not want to leave him because of the incidents happened in his childhood and the way they have shaped him.. instead i want to be there for him and help him be able to put the guard down and feel the emotional connection and safety he once felt with me


I so do understand why you are saying. My suggestion is for you to start one-on-one counseling for yourself and do some marriage counseling with your husband. This will not fix itself and he very likely will not listen to you. If anything he probably thinks there is no problem or that you are the one with problems.


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

AVR1962 said:


> I so do understand why you are saying. My suggestion is for you to start one-on-one counseling for yourself and do some marriage counseling with your husband. This will not fix itself and he very likely will not listen to you. If anything he probably thinks there is no problem or that you are the one with problems.


i will try to talk with him about MC with him on Sunday.


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

so..., here is my plan

1) I'm going to stop fighting about small issues and tell him calmly

2) we are going to WRITE down the rules for fighting.so that if there is a fight it won't hurt him

3)im going to be gentle with him so that he will take me through the emotional wall and feel safe with me again

4)then, after he starts to feel better im going to suggest counseling (i thought it will be easier to talk about it then.right now i don't think he will agree)

anything else?


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

i have had another talk with him. he knows he has an emotional wall, he knows it is because of absent parents but he said "i don't want anyone to change it" so he won't go to counseling.so, since he doesn't want to change it i don't think i can do anything about it.except if there is a book like i asked for before, i can give it to him and encourage him to read it...

so, for this marriage, what i can do is, trying to get through the emotional wall and wait till he loves me "enough" again.i have decided not to fight for the small stuff as he asked me to. 

but i need some help on how to behave till he makes up his mind.do i be loving, call him "baby" hug and kiss him and behave like i did before or do i be distant till he wants to hug,kiss, talk etc?


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

Do you call him names when you fight or say hurtful things? If you do, you need to stop that. 

You need to increase the amount of positive interactions vs. the number of hurtful interactions. 

For every hurtful thing you said to him during a fight, you may have to offset this with 20 or more positive interactions.

It sounds like your boyfriend may be a sensitive guy and make internalize your hurtful words more than the average guy.


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

I'm heart broken over this and i feel lost. i just thought i must type this here because i don't have anyone to pour my heart out to... when i said yes to him, i thought he will be with me till the end.i trusted that he will love me for a lifetime. that is what he indicated too. he said i ll always love you. so the fact that he now says he loves me less is a shock to me.. i never expected this from him.i feel very alone...

i have always been faithful and devoted to him. i don't flirt with other men like my workmates do.

i have loved him like no other woman ever did.

i take care of him. even when im at work i make sure to ask him if he ate etc i take care of him when he is sick

i satisfy him sexually 

i support his work. i have encouraged him to do work related things,got him things he need etc

i never forget his birthday etc and i do things to celebrate,give him gifts

i remind things for him. even when he sleeps he does not set the alarm.it' me who wakes him on time.

on my off days i cook for him.(he helps too)

when he is home from work i massage him.without even being asked

i manage finances, i do the bill paying.

i contribute financially

i have always been there for him. i listen to his problems help him getting through them etc


after ALL that, he says he loves me less...so,i guess all that means nothing to him. i don't know what to do...it just makes me very sad...

but, i will try. one more time,one last time. i have very little energy to fight for this marriage. but i will. 

i love him so much. he is worth to me more than anything.i thought he will always be there for me too... there are a thousand dreams.. from trying out new sex positions to traveling the world to growing old together... but, it seems he does not want to do anything with me. it's like he doesn't care if im with him or not... even though i love him more than my own life he does not care. 

there are stages of love.so i know that "i cant stop thinking about you" kind of love does not stay forever.but, i wish he would love me enough to 

want to talk with me without saying hmm to everything
want to laugh and joke with me and be happy

and 
he would love me enough to say "i want you in my life" instead of not caring if im with him or not.

so i will try my best to save this marriage and if i can't well, i cant beg for love. i cant make it happen. so i guess i ll just leave.... he will always have a very special place in my heart but, if he does not want me to be a part of his life there is no other option... im crying as im typing this.. never thought this day would come...i will wait and see for about 4 months and i ll let you guys know what happened. because you have been very supportive and given me eye-opening insights


thank you for being there for me


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

loveadvice said:


> Do you call him names when you fight or say hurtful things? If you do, you need to stop that.
> 
> You need to increase the amount of positive interactions vs. the number of hurtful interactions.
> 
> ...


no. i don't call him names. i don't say hurtful things. but i sense that just saying "you didn't call me" makes him take offense...


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

finding-a-path said:


> i have had another talk with him. he knows he has an emotional wall, he knows it is because of absent parents but he said "i don't want anyone to change it" so he won't go to counseling.so, since he doesn't want to change it i don't think i can do anything about it.except if there is a book like i asked for before, i can give it to him and encourage him to read it...
> 
> so, for this marriage, what i can do is, trying to get through the emotional wall and wait till he loves me "enough" again.i have decided not to fight for the small stuff as he asked me to.
> 
> but i need some help on how to behave till he makes up his mind.do i be loving, call him "baby" hug and kiss him and behave like i did before or do i be distant till he wants to hug,kiss, talk etc?


There is a book that could help both of you. "The Emotionally Unavailable Man" by Patti Henry. The book has 2 sections, one for the man only to read and the section for you to read. I would recommend you read the entire book, his section first so you can understand him better. The part for you is a good cross examination of yourself to see if you are contributing. Many times when a person has been wounded as a child from abuse it does not take much for the person to retreat. It is possible too that he never connected emotionally to either parent as a small child and studies find that children who lack an emotional bond with a parent before the age of 8 years old will not be able to bond in their relationships later in life. The book is very good. It explains all this.

I don't want to overwhelm you with books but another one that is good, only if the two of you are willing to each read it is, "Fall in Love, Stay in Love" by Willard Harley.


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

AVR1962 said:


> There is a book that could help both of you. "The Emotionally Unavailable Man" by Patti Henry. The book has 2 sections, one for the man only to read and the section for you to read. I would recommend you read the entire book, his section first so you can understand him better. The part for you is a good cross examination of yourself to see if you are contributing. Many times when a person has been wounded as a child from abuse it does not take much for the person to retreat. It is possible too that he never connected emotionally to either parent as a small child and studies find that children who lack an emotional bond with a parent before the age of 8 years old will not be able to bond in their relationships later in life. The book is very good. It explains all this.
> 
> I don't want to overwhelm you with books but another one that is good, only if the two of you are willing to each read it is, "Fall in Love, Stay in Love" by Willard Harley.



thank you i will read both.


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

dfyhjdgk said:


> How long have you been together prior to marriage?


3 years..


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Hi OP,

I am concerned that you will not be able to have a "normal" relationship with this man, in which you can speak reasonably and *normally* about small everyday issues that come up because he is so oversensitive he cannot deal with such things. That is called walking on eggshells, and can only be done for so long and at the expense of YOU as a whole person.

I know this because I have unfortunately allowed myself to stay in situations like this.


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## bkaydezz (Jul 9, 2012)

finding-a-path said:


> no. i don't insult , i don't call names, i don't hit, i don't demean him... let's say i told him "you did'nt call me on lunch time" he could just say oh i forgot. but he starts saying ok find someone else then... then it becomes a fight.


I think there is some underlying issues. He just says to find someone else? There is some buildup from somewhere making him say that. Has something happened previously for him to just throw that out there? Jealousy, an affair? Anything at all?:scratchhead:


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## bkaydezz (Jul 9, 2012)

finding-a-path said:


> I'm heart broken over this and i feel lost. i just thought i must type this here because i don't have anyone to pour my heart out to... when i said yes to him, i thought he will be with me till the end.i trusted that he will love me for a lifetime. that is what he indicated too. he said i ll always love you. so the fact that he now says he loves me less is a shock to me.. i never expected this from him.i feel very alone...
> 
> i have always been faithful and devoted to him. i don't flirt with other men like my workmates do.
> 
> ...


Ahw...This answers what I was asking a moment ago.

Well, you certainly aren't selfish! He is taking what he has for granted. If he didn't want me as part of his life, how can you persuade someone otherwise? I don't hold your wanting to go in the other direction if you have been at your mercy working to have this man see how important you are to him and he not even look twice.


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## Miss Metta (Jan 27, 2013)

Having not read any further, so someone may have named this for what it is, but I had to jump in. It's called, 'stone-walling', and it's a form of emotional abuse. Men do it more than women because when confronted with an issue, they are prone to a 'flooding' of emotions (whereas women tend to be calmer) that they don't know how to regulate/control. So they immediately put a stop to the 'source' of this flooding, (the person with the issue) by doing things such as going silent, walking away, rolling their eyes, or outbursts of screaming, or ignoring the original person's feelings or message and without acknowleding it, turns whatever it is straight back around onto the person. You've got to be really, really present and strong to cut this off at the pass when it happens. My guy is / was a stonewaller. When we first moved in together, there were a few minor issues as we established our 'territory'. If I mentioned something was bothering me, in a non-blaming way, he would get hysterical and say things such as, "you're breaking my balls, after all I do for you!!!!" to which I would calmly and firmly respond, "there's no question that you do a lot for me, and I appreciate that. This is about something completely different, this is about what you said just now and how that has made me feel." Making him stay on track throws him off balance. He might try again to deflect and say something like, "it's all in your head", or "is your past making you paranoid?" ( a real down and dirty one, that is). That last one is also a form of stone-walling but you can see how it's designed to put it back onto me and avoid the present issue. It's devious, because he's drawing on facts he knows about me that I have told him in confidence. So for example, he knows I have abandonment issues and suffer anxiety. In the past, I would be tipped over by that sort of remark and then start justifying myself or thinking, "yes, it's my problems coming up again" and then start ruminating on everything that is wrong with me. We might then go down the path of what is wrong with me and how that might be fixed. Meanwhile the original complaint has disappeared and has never been addressed. Which is exactly what that sort of comment is designed to do. It's also called, 'gaslighting', that is, telling me I've imagined something because I have problems with anxiety. Now although this might be possibly true - perhaps I have imagined something - the point is the issue still needs his acknowledgement and to be talked through until I realise or come to my own conclusion that it might have been my imagination. Which, with good discussion, I might eventually do. Though in this case there was no 'imagining', he did and said something that wasn't very nice and I called him on it. But when he tried to say perhaps it was my past causing me to think this, I immediately identified what he was doing and I called him on it: "It's true I've had problems with anxiety. But We aren't talking about that now. We are talking about what you did a few minutes ago and what you said". So again rather than get caught up with talking about 'me' , I got it back on track. Then because he knows he's cornered, he just gets angry and says, "I'm going to take a shower!". When he comes out, fortunately he's calmed down enough to have a reasonable discussion. And I tell him that one of his techniques for dealing with conflict is stone-walling. He doesn't deny it. In fact he acknowledges it. I think it is the first time in his life that this kind of behaviour has ever been acknowledge. It's worked for him in the past, but it's not working with me. Once that behaviour was identified calmly, and I explained how it damages the communications, he agreed. Not all men will admit to doing it, but my guy wants us to work out, and wants to change past behaviours. He hasn't done it since, though things have settled down and either there is way less conflict, or he is just listening more rather than react, and I haven't realised that normally he would be reactive. It takes enormous, enormous focus and emotional energy to stay on track with what your original issue is and not get side-tracked by any diversionary stuff they throw at you. But you can do it. Once you know what the repoirtoire of techniques is, you can name them one by one as they come out, like identifying zoo animals. You get back an enormous sense of control, even though you are scared inside, once you are able to do this, and call him on the behaviour, calmly, gently, lovingly. I hope this helps
Miss Metta




ebp123 said:


> It's not too much to ask that you don't spend 15 min on your phone in the middle of a movie you are both watching and I think deep down he knows that.
> 
> My H does the same thing. For years and years he defended his lack of respect in conversations. I would talk to the back of his head, he wouldn't make eye contact, yet he said he was listening and I shouldn't get upset. He would get mad at me for even requesting that he make eye contact with me. Deep down he knows, I'm sure, that making eye contact during a conversation shows basic respect but since he didn't feel like doing it he found it easier to be angry than to admit fault.


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## Miss Metta (Jan 27, 2013)

Maybe I'm missing something here, but what bothers me about ideas such as "The Emotionally Unavailable Man" is that they don't start out emotionally unavailable! That's how they get you in! So my logic is that if someone is capable of emotional availability during the honeymoon phase, they are capable of it, period. It's a choice. In some cases it's a very effective way to control the other person; by becoming and remaining, emotionally unavailable. I'm sure the book has some great insights and advice, I just query how someone can go from sweet, loving and open to not sweet, loving, and open, and the second to be considered the primary condition, there all along. If someone were truly emotionally unavailable, to my mind they'd be defensive and wary from the start, not be warm and intimate and then stop. Just a thought.
Miss Metta





AVR1962 said:


> There is a book that could help both of you. "The Emotionally Unavailable Man" by Patti Henry. The book has 2 sections, one for the man only to read and the section for you to read. I would recommend you read the entire book, his section first so you can understand him better. The part for you is a good cross examination of yourself to see if you are contributing. Many times when a person has been wounded as a child from abuse it does not take much for the person to retreat. It is possible too that he never connected emotionally to either parent as a small child and studies find that children who lack an emotional bond with a parent before the age of 8 years old will not be able to bond in their relationships later in life. The book is very good. It explains all this.
> 
> I don't want to overwhelm you with books but another one that is good, only if the two of you are willing to each read it is, "Fall in Love, Stay in Love" by Willard Harley.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Miss Metta said:


> My logic is that if someone is capable of emotional availability during the honeymoon phase, they are capable of it, period. It's a choice.


No, not necessarily, Metta. Granted, if the person has strong narcissistic or sociopathic traits, it is a *choice* because their false display of emotional availability during the courtship phase is just a ruse to suck you in. If they have strong Borderline (BPD) traits, however, it very likely is NOT a choice.

With BPDers, what you're seeing during the courtship period likely is a genuine display of real feelings. They are able to be "emotionally available" at that time only because their infatuation over you convinces them that you are safe and pose no threat. In this way, their infatuation holds their two great fears (abandonment and engulfment) at bay. When that infatuation evaporates, however, those fears return and you will start triggering a release of the anger they've been carrying since childhood.


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## Miss Metta (Jan 27, 2013)

Hi Uptown
thanks for being gentle with me! As I was writing it, I was aware of the sociopathic seductive phase as being a case to the contrary of what I was writing. Curiously, you make me feel a lot better - I was diagnosed BPD many years ago, and although I still have terror of abandonment, I try not to react to it and I don't fear engulfment. I was a 'quiet' BPD, though. I didn't yell and scream and go crazy at people, just had a quiet, intense suffering and lots and lots of instability, as is the hallmark. When I compare myself now to your remarks, I feel I've somehow 'outgrown' a lot of it, much calmer. That said, my recent problem has been becoming too dependent on my SO without realising what was happening - others here on the board have pointed this out to me, thankfully, but he is so like my father (now deceased) but all the wonderful things I adored about my Dad, not all the drunken crap. He's actually been a healing person to be around, though I miss him like crazy, I'm able to self-soothe. Still, when others on this board pointed out that I was hurting myself because I had invested too much of my identity with my man and had forgotten to "get a life", I had to ask myself how much of that was unconcious behaviour of the underdeveloped Borderline and I just hadn't noticed it happening. I really was amazed how it snuck in without me noticing. 

However, with BPDers, I thought their main driver is terror of abandonment, and they will make frantic attempts to avoid this. (certainly applied to me many times). Our OP's guy, I haven't seen her report anything that might show a terror of abandonment or frantic attempts to avoid it. I once had to deal with a boss whom I realised was BPD - very extreme - and I then understood about BPDer's flipping. I 'watched' him one minute being really nice and intimate and funny with me, the next, flipped into real paranoia and anger, which I could only see as the 'go away closer' syndrome. The more I remained calm and accepting with his anger and just listened, or said, uh-hmm, the worse he got. I wound up getting off the phone sometimes, shaking. 
So maybe OP's husband may be BPD, just not at an extremely expressive end?
Metta





Uptown said:


> No, not necessarily, Metta. Granted, if the person has strong narcissistic or sociopathic traits, it is a *choice* because their false display of emotional availability during the courtship phase is just a ruse to suck you in. If they have strong Borderline (BPD) traits, however, it very likely is NOT a choice.
> 
> With BPDers, what you're seeing during the courtship period likely is a genuine display of real feelings. They are able to be "emotionally available" at that time only because their infatuation over you convinces them that you are safe and pose no threat. In this way, their infatuation holds their two great fears (abandonment and engulfment) at bay. When that infatuation evaporates, however, those fears return and you will start triggering a release of the anger they've been carrying since childhood.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

AVR1962 said:


> There is a book that could help both of you. "The Emotionally Unavailable Man" by Patti Henry. The book has 2 sections, one for the man only to read and the section for you to read. I would recommend you read the entire book, his section first so you can understand him better. The part for you is a good cross examination of yourself to see if you are contributing. Many times when a person has been wounded as a child from abuse it does not take much for the person to retreat. It is possible too that he never connected emotionally to either parent as a small child and studies find that children who lack an emotional bond with a parent before the age of 8 years old will not be able to bond in their relationships later in life. The book is very good. It explains all this.
> 
> I don't want to overwhelm you with books but another one that is good, only if the two of you are willing to each read it is, "Fall in Love, Stay in Love" by Willard Harley.


OP,

Do this, read and talk about these issues with him. Give him the opportunity to perform here, or get divorced. His choice.

He needs a reality check.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

BTW,

I wonder how much BPD is culture related. Like so many other labels, I literally almost never hear about them in Europe. I know they exist, you can be treated or not by doctors, but it is very seldom.

Like I thought before, maybe it is in the food and water in the US.

I am not kidding. The street images of a US city and that of a European city are totally different. The amount of obese, morbid obese people in the US is staggering. I think there could be a mental component in the bad food situation causing all those labeled behavioral problems. Sugar for instance, the hormones in the water, I don't know. But the difference is amazing.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Miss Metta said:


> I was diagnosed BPD many years ago....


If you still have strong BPD traits, Metta, you are one remarkable lady. I would be surprised if as many as 3 to 5% of BPDers have the self awareness -- as you do -- to be able to recognize the BPD traits. And, of that tiny group, perhaps only a third of them have the ego strength to be willing to work hard in therapy to do anything about it. As you know, BPD traits are "egosyntonic," i.e., are such a normal way of thinking to the BPDer that they typically are invisible to the person suffering from them.



> I still have terror of abandonment ...[but] I don't fear engulfment.


If you only fear abandonment, you are describing AvPD (Avoidant Personality Disorder), not BPD. Whereas AvPD sufferers are stable, BPDers are unstable. The instability arises, as I understand it, from the presence of TWO fears, not just one. Because those two fears (abandonment and engulfment) lie at opposite ends of the VERY SAME spectrum, you are always in a lose-lose predicament in close relationships. 

Namely, as you move away from one of your fears to avoid triggering it, you necessarily are moving closer to triggering the other fear. With BPDers, this is apparent when the BPDer pushes her partner away to escape the suffocating feeling of engulfment. She does that by creating a fight over nothing. Yet, after he backs off, her fear of abandonment will kick in and she will start being extra caring and sweet to pull him back. The result is the instability that, as you noted, is the hallmark of BPD. Indeed, that instability sets it apart from the other nine PDs listed in the DSM-5.



> My recent problem has been becoming too dependent on my SO without realising what was happening.


Metta, if you have had strong BPD traits in the past as you suspect, you are not describing a "recent problem." One of the hallmarks of BPD is having such low personal boundaries that you have great difficulty telling where YOUR problems leave off and your partner's problems begin. Hence, if you are a BPDer, you likely have had a dependency problem since you were about 12-14 years old, which is when BPD traits typically start showing strongly.



> I had to ask myself how much of that was unconcious behaviour of the underdeveloped Borderline and I just hadn't noticed it happening.


As you likely already know, exhibiting the nine BPD traits does not mean you "are Borderline." Rather, it only means you are human. All of us occasionally exhibit all nine BPD traits, albeit at a rather low level if we are healthy. At moderate levels, these traits generally are beneficial because they are essential to our survival. They become a problem only when they are so strong and persistent that they frequently distort one's perceptions of other peoples' intentions and motivations, thereby undermining all close LTRs.



> So maybe OP's husband may be BPD, just not at an extremely expressive end?


Not having met him, I don't know what problem Finding's H has. I nonetheless agree with you that Finding is NOT describing any warning signs that would be indicative of the emotional instability and abandonment fear associated with BPD.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

See_Listen_Love said:


> I wonder how much BPD is culture related. Like so many other labels, I literally almost never hear about them in Europe. ...maybe it is in the food and water in the US.


SLL, please keep in mind that the field of psychology is rapidly evolving but likely is still lagging over a hundred years behind the medical sciences. Indeed, "BPD" did not even appear in the American diagnostic manual until 1980 and therapists have been reluctant to diagnose it. The result is that it is greatly under-diagnosed here in the USA. 

This became evident in 2008 when the first and only large-scale study of BPD prevalence was published. It was a four-year study of nearly 35,000 American adults. It found that the incidence of BPD in the American adult population is about 6%, which is three times the percentage of people actually being given the diagnosis.

Generally, American therapists are LOATH to tell a BPDer client the name of his/her disorder (for several reasons I discuss at Loath to Diagnose). My understanding is that European therapists are even worse in this regard. Hence, the problem lies in the psychiatric community and the insurance companies (who don't want to cover PD treatments), not the food or water.


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

Livvie said:


> Hi OP,
> 
> I am concerned that you will not be able to have a "normal" relationship with this man, in which you can speak reasonably and *normally* about small everyday issues that come up because he is so oversensitive he cannot deal with such things. That is called walking on eggshells, and can only be done for so long and at the expense of YOU as a whole person.
> 
> I know this because I have unfortunately allowed myself to stay in situations like this.


im going to talk about that with him. i think he may be able to see how his behavior is taking away my freedom to speak


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

bkaydezz said:


> I think there is some underlying issues. He just says to find someone else? There is some buildup from somewhere making him say that. Has something happened previously for him to just throw that out there? Jealousy, an affair? Anything at all?:scratchhead:


nothing at all. i didnt have an affair, i didnt do anything at all. but he says that


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

Miss Metta said:


> Having not read any further, so someone may have named this for what it is, but I had to jump in. It's called, 'stone-walling', and it's a form of emotional abuse. Men do it more than women because when confronted with an issue, they are prone to a 'flooding' of emotions (whereas women tend to be calmer) that they don't know how to regulate/control. So they immediately put a stop to the 'source' of this flooding, (the person with the issue) by doing things such as going silent, walking away, rolling their eyes, or outbursts of screaming, or ignoring the original person's feelings or message and without acknowleding it, turns whatever it is straight back around onto the person. You've got to be really, really present and strong to cut this off at the pass when it happens. My guy is / was a stonewaller. When we first moved in together, there were a few minor issues as we established our 'territory'. If I mentioned something was bothering me, in a non-blaming way, he would get hysterical and say things such as, "you're breaking my balls, after all I do for you!!!!" to which I would calmly and firmly respond, "there's no question that you do a lot for me, and I appreciate that. This is about something completely different, this is about what you said just now and how that has made me feel." Making him stay on track throws him off balance. He might try again to deflect and say something like, "it's all in your head", or "is your past making you paranoid?" ( a real down and dirty one, that is). That last one is also a form of stone-walling but you can see how it's designed to put it back onto me and avoid the present issue. It's devious, because he's drawing on facts he knows about me that I have told him in confidence. So for example, he knows I have abandonment issues and suffer anxiety. In the past, I would be tipped over by that sort of remark and then start justifying myself or thinking, "yes, it's my problems coming up again" and then start ruminating on everything that is wrong with me. We might then go down the path of what is wrong with me and how that might be fixed. Meanwhile the original complaint has disappeared and has never been addressed. Which is exactly what that sort of comment is designed to do. It's also called, 'gaslighting', that is, telling me I've imagined something because I have problems with anxiety. Now although this might be possibly true - perhaps I have imagined something - the point is the issue still needs his acknowledgement and to be talked through until I realise or come to my own conclusion that it might have been my imagination. Which, with good discussion, I might eventually do. Though in this case there was no 'imagining', he did and said something that wasn't very nice and I called him on it. But when he tried to say perhaps it was my past causing me to think this, I immediately identified what he was doing and I called him on it: "It's true I've had problems with anxiety. But We aren't talking about that now. We are talking about what you did a few minutes ago and what you said". So again rather than get caught up with talking about 'me' , I got it back on track. Then because he knows he's cornered, he just gets angry and says, "I'm going to take a shower!". When he comes out, fortunately he's calmed down enough to have a reasonable discussion. And I tell him that one of his techniques for dealing with conflict is stone-walling. He doesn't deny it. In fact he acknowledges it. I think it is the first time in his life that this kind of behaviour has ever been acknowledge. It's worked for him in the past, but it's not working with me. Once that behaviour was identified calmly, and I explained how it damages the communications, he agreed. Not all men will admit to doing it, but my guy wants us to work out, and wants to change past behaviours. He hasn't done it since, though things have settled down and either there is way less conflict, or he is just listening more rather than react, and I haven't realised that normally he would be reactive. It takes enormous, enormous focus and emotional energy to stay on track with what your original issue is and not get side-tracked by any diversionary stuff they throw at you. But you can do it. Once you know what the repoirtoire of techniques is, you can name them one by one as they come out, like identifying zoo animals. You get back an enormous sense of control, even though you are scared inside, once you are able to do this, and call him on the behaviour, calmly, gently, lovingly. I hope this helps
> Miss Metta


i did it. i told him you have an emotional wall. he accepted that he does. but, he says he doesn't want to change it


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

Uptown said:


> No, not necessarily, Metta. Granted, if the person has strong narcissistic or sociopathic traits, it is a *choice* because their false display of emotional availability during the courtship phase is just a ruse to suck you in. If they have strong Borderline (BPD) traits, however, it very likely is NOT a choice.
> 
> With BPDers, what you're seeing during the courtship period likely is a genuine display of real feelings. They are able to be "emotionally available" at that time only because their infatuation over you convinces them that you are safe and pose no threat. In this way, their infatuation holds their two great fears (abandonment and engulfment) at bay. When that infatuation evaporates, however, those fears return and you will start triggering a release of the anger they've been carrying since childhood.


that's what has happened to him i guess. although the doc said he had bi-polar


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

Miss Metta said:


> Hi Uptown
> thanks for being gentle with me! As I was writing it, I was aware of the sociopathic seductive phase as being a case to the contrary of what I was writing. Curiously, you make me feel a lot better - I was diagnosed BPD many years ago, and although I still have terror of abandonment, I try not to react to it and I don't fear engulfment. I was a 'quiet' BPD, though. I didn't yell and scream and go crazy at people, just had a quiet, intense suffering and lots and lots of instability, as is the hallmark. When I compare myself now to your remarks, I feel I've somehow 'outgrown' a lot of it, much calmer. That said, my recent problem has been becoming too dependent on my SO without realising what was happening - others here on the board have pointed this out to me, thankfully, but he is so like my father (now deceased) but all the wonderful things I adored about my Dad, not all the drunken crap. He's actually been a healing person to be around, though I miss him like crazy, I'm able to self-soothe. Still, when others on this board pointed out that I was hurting myself because I had invested too much of my identity with my man and had forgotten to "get a life", I had to ask myself how much of that was unconcious behaviour of the underdeveloped Borderline and I just hadn't noticed it happening. I really was amazed how it snuck in without me noticing.
> 
> However, with BPDers, I thought their main driver is terror of abandonment, and they will make frantic attempts to avoid this. (certainly applied to me many times). Our OP's guy, I haven't seen her report anything that might show a terror of abandonment or frantic attempts to avoid it. I once had to deal with a boss whom I realised was BPD - very extreme - and I then understood about BPDer's flipping. I 'watched' him one minute being really nice and intimate and funny with me, the next, flipped into real paranoia and anger, which I could only see as the 'go away closer' syndrome. The more I remained calm and accepting with his anger and just listened, or said, uh-hmm, the worse he got. I wound up getting off the phone sometimes, shaking.
> ...


he does not have any terror of abandonment at all. in fact, what he is implying is "it doesn't make a difference to me if i have you or not"


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

How clever and manipulative. He puts you in a position of walking on egg shells to maintain his love. 

You said you love him. Think about what that that will mean in the years to come. Does he do what he wants and make demands on you and never learn to communicate, compromise and maybe have conflict? 

If you cannot change this dynamic, you need to decide if you want to live like that?


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Catherine602 said:


> How clever and manipulative. He puts you in a position of walking on egg shells to maintain his love.
> 
> You said you love him. Think about what that that will mean in the years to come. Does he do what he wants and make demands on you and never learn to communicate, compromise and maybe have conflict?
> 
> If you cannot change this dynamic, you need to decide if you want to live like that?


I second this a million times....


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## Miss Metta (Jan 27, 2013)

Hi Uptown
Thank you for this, your knowledge of PDs is certainly helpful and augurs well! 


Uptown said:


> If you still have strong BPD traits, Metta, you are one remarkable lady. I would be surprised if as many as 3 to 5% of BPDers have the self awareness -- as you do -- to be able to recognize the BPD traits. And, of that tiny group, perhaps only a third of them have the ego strength to be willing to work hard in therapy to do anything about it. As you know, BPD traits are "egosyntonic," i.e., are such a normal way of thinking to the BPDer that they typically are invisible to the person suffering from them.


I have read somewhere that BPs can "outgrow" some of their traits with maturity - when they get into their 40s and 50s. I've always felt a little unsatisfied with that - if a PD is set, or egosyntonic as you say, then without ongoing therapy or intervention, how can someone just 'outgrow' it? "Oh she has BPD, or she used to have it, but she's outgrown it now she's 40". Huh? I'm also a bit amused by the various 'diagnoses' that different psychiatrists and psychologists have given me over the years. In my late 20's a male psychiatrist told me he thought I was Histrionic personality - I was shattered! Later, a psychiatrist who was treating me for EDs said I had very seductive personality that would 'turn'. I wondered what the heck he was talking about, and again, I was shattered by his suggestion. (it sounded like he was trying to say BPD to me). He, however, later lost his registration for having sexual affairs with one or more of his patients and was taking ADs himself; all at the time he was also treating me. If I had known then that he had been having sex with other patients and was himself depressed, I would've ceased treatment. He never hit on me, though. Later, a psychology grad fresh out of training 'diagnosed' (I know they Aaren't allowed to give 'official' diagnoses), BPD. The reason why he did this, and I think the reason why most of them flagged me with BPD was because of my life-long history of anorexia and starvation-type eating disorder, and in my late teens and early 20's, cutting. I'm aware that these are often associated with BPs. However, I have always thought, "surely one could have an eating disorder and not be BP? I always felt like it was a bit of a reach. Furthermore, many of the side-effects of starvation 'look' like a PD, which is possibly why EDs have been used as a sign post for BPD. These 'personality problems' clear up of their own accord when sufficient body weight is restored and is _maintained for long enough._ The body and mind 'let go' as healing and equilibrium take place. I wish more psychiatrists realised this, that a lot of ED behaviour is biological reaction to starvation. I have found this organic healing can take up to two years or more and then all the 'issues' melt away of their own volition. I have recovered and relapsed enough times to recognise this process. Leave it alone, eat, and all the rest will resolve itself over a long period of time. I am very recovered right now, have been for 3 years, (now in late 40's) and can't find an ounce of anorexic thinking in my mind at all. After the young psychologist, my GP pooh-poohed that diagnosis and said, "he's just out of college, not enough experience", and sent me to another, female psychiatrist. She diagnosed, correctly for the time, PMDD as I was suffering immensely. This then led to another psychiatrist for ongoing managment who subsequently diagnosed 'soft' bipolar and dysthymia. So all these different diagnoses were within a matter of weeks! He gave me antipsychotic meds - they were supposed to help with the extremes of the PMDD which was leading me to be extremely suicidal that time of the month. Although the meds worked somewhat, they also made me dopey so I stopped taking them. I 'treated' the PMDD by ceasing alcohol and taking EPO. This worked quite a lot. So some years on, and I tell my doctor about an 'auditory hallucination'. No, not hearing voices, but music in my head. Like an ear-worm (and sometimes it can morph into an ear-worm) but just constant, repetitive 'noise' a few bars that just play over and over and over again, sometimes louder than others. It did - and still does - drive me nuts. So my GP sent me to a female pyschiatrist. She took a history, and once again because of my history of anorexia and my unstable career and living history, plus how my parents treated me, she diagnosed BPD, "but", she said, "you are doing extremely well". 
Which, when you said that I was 'remarkable', or words to that effect, prompted me to write about how I got that diagnosis.


So that diagnosis was about 3 years ago. She said she thought the constant 'head noise' was extreme anxiety, so gave me an antipsychotic to help it. I took the drug twice, it made me so dopey, I hated it, stopped. Only very, very deep meditation gets rid of the noise, which is a huge relief, but the minute I come out of it, it's back again. Some people suggest it's a form of OCD, the 'music'. 

So here I am, three years later, still with this annoying constant noise in my head, and the last diagnosis was BPD. I've read about it a bit and can relate alot.



Uptown said:


> If you only fear abandonment, you are describing AvPD (Avoidant Personality Disorder), not BPD. Whereas AvPD sufferers are stable, BPDers are unstable. The instability arises, as I understand it, from the presence of TWO fears, not just one. Because those two fears (abandonment and engulfment) lie at opposite ends of the VERY SAME spectrum, you are always in a lose-lose predicament in close relationships.
> 
> Namely, as you move away from one of your fears to avoid triggering it, you necessarily are moving closer to triggering the other fear. With BPDers, this is apparent when the BPDer pushes her partner away to escape the suffocating feeling of engulfment. She does that by creating a fight over nothing. Yet, after he backs off, her fear of abandonment will kick in and she will start being extra caring and sweet to pull him back. The result is the instability that, as you noted, is the hallmark of BPD. Indeed, that instability sets it apart from the other nine PDs listed in the DSM-5.


This is really interesting, from a number of perspectives. So I just looked up AvPD, and that actually does sound a lot like me, only I wouldn't say that I am socially inept or shy. Anxious, yes, but I can fake huge confidence with people, be funny and engaging. I feel more power when I do that rather than shy away, but that may be something I've taught myself to do...plus now being in my 40s and with naturally more self-acceptance and confidence, "who gives a toss what they think" may also play a part in this. The rest seems to fit, especially emotional neglect/abuse by parents and peer group rejection. Yes, one thing that still makes me feel sad when I think about it is the amount and degree of bullying and taunting and peer-group rejection I experienced as a child and especially a teen. That is mentioned as a factor in AvPD development. Thank you so much for directing me to that, it AvPD even explains the 'unstable career' for me, it's been 'what career?!' which was one of the other hallmarks used to diagnose me as BPD, but the whole picture fits better with AvPD. That said, this AvPD is different from the AvP that I read about in 'attachment styles'. In "attachment style" theory, I would without a doubt be an "anxious" type, not an "avoidant". I don't avoid intimacy with people. Very careful and cautious, but don't avoid it, love it, giving and receiving emotional intimacy, and physical touch. Once I do fall in love and trust (takes me a while) I'm all in! 

That swing from one to the other I could see with my boss was very, very painful for him, and torturous for me, too. Trying to 'woo' me and get me to understand and sympathise with him, and then mid-conversation, completely turn on me and accuse me of this that and the other, very aggressive. And paranoid (though I'm not one to speak about that, I can get that way but talk myself out of it). I even said to him, "I think you are trying to push me away. It's okay to be angry, I'm not going to walk away from you". I couldn't think how else to handle it! But it was terrifying to experience, this sudden switch from this nice, cosy, 'intimate' conversation (I use that word non-sexually), to suddenly getting your head bitten off! He seemed quite, well, crazy. As he was doing it, I couldn't help thinking, "I wonder if he's BPD", when quite a number of other behaviours were in line, it's quite possible (though I am not to diagnose). So once experiencing this, I thought at the time, if I'm BPD, how come I don't ever do this? I think you, Uptown, may have just explained it. Because I don't fear engulfment - he seemed like he did. 



Uptown said:


> Metta, if you have had strong BPD traits in the past as you suspect, you are not describing a "recent problem." One of the hallmarks of BPD is having such low personal boundaries that you have great difficulty telling where YOUR problems leave off and your partner's problems begin. Hence, if you are a BPDer, you likely have had a dependency problem since you were about 12-14 years old, which is when BPD traits typically start showing strongly.


I believe in my 20's and 30's I had problems with personal boundaries - okay, even somewhat into my early 40's. But I would often attract men who were 'blamers' and, simply, just let them. I felt it was up to me to fix things all the time, and they were happy to ensure I believed this. But I know I'm hardly unique in this regard, taking the blame and responsibility for others seems a pandemic amongst women. My Mum was, and still is, like that. If something happens in another room, it must be my fault. Even if I wasn't there! I don't do that now, in fact I'm very clear and very strong on what's my responsibilities and what is his. 

When I was young, in my late teens, I accidentally put my arm through a window and had to go to hospital for stitches. I will never forget my father (who may or may not have been drinking at the time) saying with utter contempt and disgust,, something to the effect of, "you are the most dependent person I know". I don't remember a lot about the scenario, or how me putting my arm through a window related to 'dependency', because I blanked out, plus was in shock from putting my arm through the window. I just remember those few words the contempt with which it was conveyed. 



Uptown said:


> As you likely already know, exhibiting the nine BPD traits does not mean you "are Borderline." Rather, it only means you are human. All of us occasionally exhibit all nine BPD traits, albeit at a rather low level if we are healthy. At moderate levels, these traits generally are beneficial because they are essential to our survival. They become a problem only when they are so strong and persistent that they frequently distort one's perceptions of other peoples' intentions and motivations, thereby undermining all close LTRs.
> 
> Not having met him, I don't know what problem Finding's H has. I nonetheless agree with you that Finding is NOT describing any warning signs that would be indicative of the emotional instability and abandonment fear associated with BPD.


Well said. All traits are needed at healthy levels, agreed. And thank you again for the AvPD suggestion. No, I am not going to be a 'histrionic' and read everything I can about it -Wikipedia was enough! 
I've had enough boxes I've been put into. So it sounds to me like the wildcard that threw all the mental health professionals was the eating disorder. Isn't it possible that the ED also has contributed to AvPD, since people with an ED typically isolate themselves so that they can focus all their attention on food, the not eating of it, dieting, exercise and recipes? In time, they forget and lose confidence in how to live life and engage in teh world. Starvation does that to you, regardless of whether or not you have a PD or are an introvert. 

As a child, I had heaps and heaps of gungo-ho and confidence -and heaps and heaps of , "don't do that, you're a girl, or you'll only get it wrong"--(grrrrrrr!!!)." Something changed before I reached adulthood. Anyway, it's all grist for the mill.

So maybe I am not an 'exceptional' BPD at all, but rather the more introspective and highly self-aware AvPD. Seems to fit. Thanks again, your insight and information has been invaluable,
with gratitude,
cheers
Metta


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

i think maybe he is meaning that he does not feel the way he felt about me when we 1st fell in love? i have noticed some of you using words like honeymoon phase, infatuation etc. i know there are stages of love.and i think people don't feel the way they 1st felt forever. but i think, 

if you like spending time and talking with your partner
if you like making them happy
if you don't want to see them sad/crying/sick
if you want to have sex with them and enjoy it
if you want to have them in your life and wouldn't want to lose them
if you want to be faithful to them

then 

you love your partner. 

i think he may be confused about not feeling the way he felt in the beginning and he thinks he loves me less.


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

i asked him yesterday and he said he is trying to love me as much as before. so i guess i will wait for around 3-4 months and see? if he didn't love me at all, he could have said lets get a divorce... right?


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

I think you're right that since you're not in that first stage of the relationship (passion), that he's thinking something is amiss. Relationships must evolve. The stages have been said to be something like this:

In The 7 Stages of Marriage (2007), Harrar and DeMaria identify the stages as:
•Passion
•Realization
•Rebellion
•Cooperation
•Reunion
•Explosion
•Completion

There's a bit more detail here: The 7 Stages of Marriage | Reader's Digest

If he wants to travel through life jumping from stage 1 to stage 1 with different women, then he'll choose divorce. Unfortunately for him, that's a crap way to go through life, because he'll come to this point every single time, having a few struggles and thinking it's all too hard. Let him know that if he wants a real marriage where you've worked through the issues every relationship must deal with and come out the other side with a partner that has helped you grow and learn to be a better person, then that's what you're offering.


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## Miss Metta (Jan 27, 2013)

I'm tending toward this concensus, as well. I lived through it in a prior relationship.
Miss Metta




Livvie said:


> I second this a million times....


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

told him today that i would like to divorce him.. It is very painful.he has been the center of my life nearly 8 years. I love him,i care for him. I cant live without him.. But if he doesnt feel the same for me, i cant do anything. I have told him i wont fight.but if he cant let go of the past,its hurting our present. He is my greatest happiness. Spending time with him, touching him, talking.. Everything makes me happy. Now its all gone.. God.. The dreams we had! All shattered now.. He is deciding today. I ll always love him...this is the most painful thing that could happen to anyone. I feel like dying.but im doing this for him. .. Feeling very lonely right now..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## VeryHurt (Mar 11, 2011)

Let him go.
I was your first poster.
I am in your shoes.
We are divorcing after 31 years.
Save yourself now.
Be strong.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

finding-a-path said:


> told him today that i would like to divorce him.. It is very painful.he has been the center of my life nearly 8 years. I love him,i care for him. I cant live without him.. But if he doesnt feel the same for me, i cant do anything. I have told him i wont fight.but if he cant let go of the past,its hurting our present. He is my greatest happiness. Spending time with him, touching him, talking.. Everything makes me happy. Now its all gone.. God.. The dreams we had! All shattered now.. He is deciding today. I ll always love him...this is the most painful thing that could happen to anyone. I feel like dying.but im doing this for him. .. Feeling very lonely right now..
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Let us know how this goes for you. I wish you the best of luck!


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

VeryHurt said:


> Let him go.
> I was your first poster.
> I am in your shoes.
> We are divorcing after 31 years.
> ...


31 years, wow! Best to you!


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## Miss Metta (Jan 27, 2013)

Having read various responses her and the OPs responses, I've a few thoughts.
1. There was a suggestion that maybe OPs husband can only remain in first stage of relationship (passion/honeymoon). I am wondering if the OP also is wanting the first stage to remain, and because it's not, there are the problems?

2. This suggestion has been leveled at me, so I think I'm qualified to perhaps identify it another person, but I also wonder if the OP is too wrapped up in the relationship.? She says, "He is her life". Now that could be a metaphor for the depth of her feelings, or, he could indeed be "her life". If she is obsessing over it an analysing every thing he does and says and what it means, it could be a bit of over-dependence. Is he her only source of happiness? If so, he may be feeling the burden of that.
3. Another responder-male- mentioned the OP being 'critical' as a way of causing her husband to shut down/back off. I tended toward agreeing. I sense the OP is being a bit over-controlling about the relationship. Now before she bites me, I have been guilty of this myself with a guy in the past. The more he backed off the more I tried to "talk" things through. I would let little things bother me all the time, such as if he dumped his socks on the floor or whatever. I wasn't meaning it to be this way, but if any little thing he did bothered me, I'd bring it up. Not in critical, pushy way, but the fact that I was constantly mentioning things he wasn't doing to my satisfaction or were annoying me meant that he was starting to feel criticised and nagged. Yes, it did annoy the heck out of me that he left the lamp on in the room for ages when he wasn't in it, and many other things, such as receiving the phone call during a show (I do agree however that it was rude, but I am a bit older and I have a thing about people just answering or using their phones when they are in the company of others). So after a while , to my horror, I realised I had inadverently become a 'nag'. I rarely mentioned something more than once, but all these little things added up. So I stopped. yes, these things still annoyed me, but I started to realise that I needed to learn to 'pick my battles'. That is put up with and shut up about socks on the floor and lamps left on. Granted, you could also say he was rude and inconsiderate for not realising how much it was bugging me, but my mentioning these things all the time were making things worse and causing him to rebel by pulling away. I know what it's like to be ticked off for every little thing you are doing that is 'wrong'; my mother still does it to me and I feel I know exactly how a guy feels. So I just thought I might mention that i wonder if he's just feeling a bit over-managed, or criticised. Even asking all the time, "how are things, what's wrong, what are you feeling" etc can drive someone up the wall because the focus is on them all the time, and they back away.

3. The other reason why I think OP may be being a bit controlling is that she says she wants the problems resolved, but then after talking here for a while, launches into wanting a divorce and says she's told him this. Is that really the truth, or is there an attempt to manipulate him into getting what you want? It sounds like a sudden, desperate leap to me. I'm not criticising, only noticed the sudden change in tactic. Would he / you consider MC first? It just sounds like a real leap to me. 

anyway, these are my observations. If he is indeed entirely your life and your focus, then that's a huge responsibility for someone, and they will eventually start to pull away. I've made that mistake before - being so there for someone that I didn't have much of a life of my own; and ironically, rather than draw your lover to you, it can backfire and be a turnoff and they pull away. 
Just some thoughts. Good luck to you,
Miss Metta


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

VeryHurt said:


> Let him go.
> I was your first poster.
> I am in your shoes.
> We are divorcing after 31 years.
> ...


31 years?? what made you finally say "it's over" ...? anyway, i will pray that you get the courage to go through it.. and i hope you will find love.


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

AVR1962 said:


> Let us know how this goes for you. I wish you the best of luck!


thank you AVR. he said he wants to stay. we both agreed to work on this marriage, give it a chance.. let's see what happens..


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

Miss Metta said:


> Having read various responses her and the OPs responses, I've a few thoughts.
> 1. There was a suggestion that maybe OPs husband can only remain in first stage of relationship (passion/honeymoon). I am wondering if the OP also is wanting the first stage to remain, and because it's not, there are the problems? i understand that the honeymoon stage is not supposed to be forever.i think he might think he loves me less because he does not understand that the honeymoon phase is not supposed to last forever
> 
> 2. This suggestion has been leveled at me, so I think I'm qualified to perhaps identify it another person, but I also wonder if the OP is too wrapped up in the relationship.? She says, "He is her life". Now that could be a metaphor for the depth of her feelings, or, he could indeed be "her life". If she is obsessing over it an analysing every thing he does and says and what it means, it could be a bit of over-dependence. Is he her only source of happiness? If so, he may be feeling the burden of that.no.. that was just an expression.sure he is the center of my life. but, my life does not consist of him alone..  i have books, movies, TV shows,games,magazines,pets,travel,nature and a hundred other things that interest me and that i enjoy and also my job and education keeps me very busy
> ...


thank you for your post


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

i sense that he does not trust me to be without fighting and he also says he cant forget the past fights..so that's where we stand right now..


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

ok.... so even though he said he is staying, i don't feel like he really wants to try. no proper hugs or kisses , he won't look at me when talking. won't send me i love you in texts and won't tell me too. last night i cried myself to sleep and he didn't know. i am losing hope.


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## missthelove2013 (Sep 23, 2013)

Would you stay in or maintain any OTHER relationship, other than marriage, if all you ever did was fight with the other person?

Would you stay friends with someone you fought with all the time
Would you remain "drinking buddies" with someone you dont get along with?? Sounds ridiculous, doesnt it??

Problem is many enter a marriage thinking they are going to assume and maintain control (women)...and when they realize men with even small testes wont put up with that crap for long, they get all wounded and hurt...in the beginning "newly wed" sex over-rides a lot of issues/potential issues...but once that heat simmers down and the couple settles into their relationship, all the blemishes come out

the girl I just broke up with started beetching and complaining about stupid trivial crap recently, out of the blue...we had 3 fights in a row, not major, but im outy...not worth it, the puss aint that good


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

missthelove2013 said:


> Would you stay in or maintain any OTHER relationship, other than marriage, if all you ever did was fight with the other person? We do many things other than the small fights..
> 
> Would you stay friends with someone you fought with all the time
> Would you remain "drinking buddies" with someone you dont get along with?? Sounds ridiculous, doesnt it??
> ...


she loved you, she took care of you, she was honest and faithful, she cooked for you, sex was great, she was always there for you ?


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

so.... we are just going to wait for a month and see how things will turn out. by that i mean we are going to see if he will be able to forget the past and love me and if i ll be able to be without fighting... i love him. i do. but if he can't decide after the month, i will let him go even though it is sad. we came together with lots of hopes and dreams. i feel sad every time i think about those memories. but i also don't want him to stay if he does not love me. im confused, hurt and feel betrayed. because when he said he loves me in the beginning i trusted him... to love me till death do us apart... i am not sure if i will have the strength to go through this....


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

i just want him to forgive for the fights, maybe he wont be able to forget but i wish he would forgive. Yes i said 'u didnt call me' 'u stayed on the phone with friend for over 1 hour ignoring me' etc. So do we have to make those affect us for LIFE? Cant we forgive? I dont know why he is holding on to the past. I just want us to have a chance. I have said sorry,i have said i wont fight for small stuff.what else can i do? I cant go on showing a happy face to the world while burning inside..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

even though i think no 1 is reading this thread anymore, i thought i would just type down how i feel.so that i would feel like some of the weight is off my chest.. So, he is not touching me (no kisses hugs or anything else) not looking at me, not saying i love u. I feel so lost and alone. He did tell me he has forgiven me and want to try. When asked,he said he loves me a little. So what do i do to make it increase.. His love is very precious to me and i just want this bad time to end.i just want to love,be loved and be happy.like we did.when the person you love the most says he doesnt love you much, It is very painful to hear. I hope we can get through this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## johny1989 (May 21, 2014)

In short you know that after every fight you have to faced many problems and some negativity of your husband then why you fight with him.. if you feel that your discuss will going to turn in fight then why you let it go on just change the topic and try to avoid the fight.. And yeah one more thing you can't clap by on hand so in this case somewhere is your fault so just try to avoid the fight and keep calm..


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

johny1989 said:


> In short you know that after every fight you have to faced many problems and some negativity of your husband then why you fight with him.. if you feel that your discuss will going to turn in fight then why you let it go on just change the topic and try to avoid the fight.. And yeah one more thing you can't clap by on hand so in this case somewhere is your fault so just try to avoid the fight and keep calm..


yes, i am trying to avoid fights. but the thing is he does not love me anymore. he says he loves me less....


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

can he fall back in love with me? what can i do so that he will feel love for me?


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

so it has been days and no change yet, he does not touch me, does not look at me. what do i do to make his resentment go away?


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## lancaster (Dec 2, 2013)

finding-a-path said:


> so it has been days and no change yet, he does not touch me, does not look at me. what do i do to make his resentment go away?


I do not think you ought to blame yourself for his feelings. His feelings, thoughts, and actions are his. If he is not sharing with you what he needs IMO there is nothing you can do.

You need to stop beating yourself up. He is equally at fault it seems to me. If he is not honestly communicating with you how can you hope to know what to do?

I feel for you, I really do.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

I haven't read replies, so I also haven't seen any additions to the first post you made, Finding, but your husband sounds a lot like me. I struggle to get past hurts, and I don't know if it will help but I'll share what I've learned. 

1. The more we remember and talk about negative things, the stronger a role it plays in our lives. 

2. The meaning we attach to something influences us a lot. 

Both of these ideas are talked about in The Meaning of Emotional Pain | Psychology Today and I've found it to be really true for me. 

3. Blame and criticism are one of the things John Gottman identifies as extremely destructive to relationships. I have seen very few people (to be precise, "NONE") who can completely eliminate blame from the way they express themselves when they're not happy about something, but if you can make your relationship a "blame-free" zone, where you're forced to immediately rephrase harmful statements in a way that makes YOU own YOUR problems, rather than making HIM at fault, it can be huge. Here's an example: 

My husband and I play pool. He gets distracted when he hears people talking nearby, especially if they're talking about him. Sometimes I'm the one talking, and sometimes it's about him. He gets upset when this happens. There have been times when he gets blameful. "I lost because you were talking about me." 

When this happens, I feel defensive immediately, especially since I'm thinking, "I wasn't doing anything wrong, and you do the same thing all the time!" Instead of saying that and starting an argument, I'll say something like, "I'm sorry, but I won't participate in a blamefest. If you'd like to talk to me fairly, we can do that." It takes a while sometimes, but he will usually come back with something like, "I couldn't think straight because I was thinking about what you guys were saying about me." 

This makes it easier to get to the heart of problems AND it helps to keep respect and friendship alive.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Ok, now I've read through the replies and additions. I believe my post above this one is on track, but incomplete.

I agree with the other poster who said you're making him your life, literally. That's fine for him to be your top priority, and it's great that you have the other activities you listed, but your other activities did not include a single other relationship. Books, your job, etc. aren't people. You need more people in your life! 

You've got a guy who is telling you, "I'm falling slowly out of love because I feel like I just don't measure up." Now, I see where there are people on here who are quick to say he's defective in some way, but I'm going to read between the lines. When you heard that he's falling out of love a little with every argument, you panicked. Why? Because you know in your heart that you're having a LOT of these arguments. You're acknowledging that they are over small things, like fifteen minute phone calls, yet instead of letting things slide, you feel like you have to "talk to him." By the way, "talking to him" is code for "fixing him" or "changing him." In fact, your posts are full of "how can I get him to..." questions. Short answer: You don't.

He has already told you what you need to do: Back off. 

How do you do that? Take that same 2-3 day recovery period for "getting over it" without having the fight first. If it's still a problem after 3 days, THEN talk to him. But chances are, those "little things" will be gone from your memory by the third day, and you can save the fights in the first place. 

You might find it tough to NOT say something, especially if he asks "What's wrong" because you're distracted by your own hurt/anger. You reply, "I'm not sure yet, but I'll talk when I am ready." Don't tell him you're counting days, just do it yourself. 

When it *does* come time to talk to him, make sure YOU own the problem and do not expect him to. So if he acted insensitively by talking on the phone for half an hour when you had been watching a movie together, you find a solution that does not require any effort from him. "I was unhappy that I felt so alone when you took a call. The next time that happens, I will fix my problem by ... making a phone call of my own / baking cookies and not coming back to the movie until my baking's done / stop watching the movie altogether." That's it. If HE has a problem with your response, it's HIS problem that you are not required to fix.

(In practice, it works pretty well because without argument, he'll see you doing whatever lets you not focus on what made you mad, and now if he has to wait, he's learned what it'll take to not have to wait...) Best of all... no blame!!


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

KathyBatesel said:


> Ok, now I've read through the replies and additions. I believe my post above this one is on track, but incomplete.
> 
> I agree with the other poster who said you're making him your life, literally. That's fine for him to be your top priority, and it's great that you have the other activities you listed, but your other activities did not include a single other relationship. Books, your job, etc. aren't people. You need more people in your life! i do have people in my life.my family and my friends
> 
> ...


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

he shows me that he does not like to talk with me. he does not want to hear about my day, he looks away/at phone when im talking with him, he says ok or hm to everything without making any attempt at conversation.his expression is like "grr when can i get away from this" and i am sad coz i dont have a partner who likes to share days events.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

For whatever reason, he has detached from you. And at the moment it doesn't sound like he is working very hard to reconnect. You will have to decide how long you will be able to live that way because you can't change him. He has to want to change and even if he does want to it's a lot of work and most people end up backsliding. So the decision ultimately is yours.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

I think he has made his decision. From what I've seen in life, once someone makes that decision, even though it may seem like you could get them to change their mind, they will go through with it sooner or later. 

You need to stop trying to "make" him love you. You are who you are. While it is great to always seek to improve ourselves, we have to accept who we are fundamentally.

He doesn't want to interact with you in any way. I have to say that you deserve better than this. You continue to chase him to try and change his mind, maybe it's time to change yours. Is a man who treats you this way worth tying yourself up into knots every day trying to win his love?

Part of us wants our partner to try harder, to try to please us, but he is not accepting what you are giving. He is turning his back on you. Time to accept the facts. It's time for you to ask yourself what you really want out of a partner and a marriage and is he really capable of giving you that?


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

something big happened today.yesterday he said he has to go out for something work related... so i trusted him. he had sent me a text at 2am that he came home (when he is gone i stay with my mother) this morning, i went to our home, had a wash, and was going to open up my laptop. on the table... then i noticed his wallet on the table.i knew he had his salary of last two days in it (he gets paid on daily basis)so i took the wallet to put the money at the usual place we keep money.(i do it daily) 

and i found a bill

for one pack of ferrero rocher and packet of cigarettes!!! i checked the time of the bill and it was when he was supposed to be at the work related thing. i woke him and asked him to explain it. he admitted there was no work related thing and he went to drink with his friends. 

he gave up drinking and smoking 8 years a go. in fact he promised me he wouldn't do again. 

so, he lied and he broke two promises too. i cried and cried and he apologized.said he wouldn't do it again and the chocolates were for his friend's kid.and then i talked about his mother's problem and he finally accepted that SHE WAS WRONG.

i was so angry after finding out and him accepting that i said if you ever lie to me again i will kill you. (that is before he apologized) 

so now,he says he was slowly forgetting the past fights and the problem with his mother moving in (i mentioned it in another thread) and he was going to say "let's be loving again" and now that i said i will kill him if he lies he needs 3 months to decide if he can be loving. 

so now it is my fault too.. and, right now i feel i cant trust him. so i said ok let's wait two months and see. 

so where to from here? i have counseling for me on June 18th.


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

today i told him to read this thread. he read from page 1 to 6. and he told me to add something.when we had the fight about his friend's phone call, i think it was on the latter part of 2011, so we were watching the movie, friend called, he ignored me, it went on close to one hour and i went to our room, wrote in a piece of paper something which started with "so much for couple time, why are you giving him our time" etc and i was crying in bed.he came after the call, read it and then started fighting..he said find someone else etc and put on a shirt and went,he left home and i went running after him. then i came back in and tried to take a lot of painkiller tablets. yes, i wanted to suicide... and another time in 2013, i don't remember the reason, but i tried to do the same thing. he wanted to add that i tried to suicide. i am thinking that effected him deeply and that is a reason he does not want to be close...


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

today, he explained the meaning of loving me less. he said the only difference is before, he always thought about my happiness and put me 1st and did what i want and didn't do what i dislike. now he puts what he needs 1st. the reason? there was a fight in 2012 in which he asked me to bring him something and even though i did it i later asked him why did you ask me to do it. so he says i do not deserve that kind of dedication because he does everything for me and i asked questions when he asked me to do something simple.


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

and right now, i feel like killing myself. this man, whom i trusted so much.... i never thought he would LIE . today has been devastating..


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## MyTurn (Oct 27, 2013)

finding,
just breath and go for a walk , it will help you calm down.

I think it's best you gays stop talking about your problems for now.

I can feel that both of you are too back up to your corners so you can not see clearly and address the true nature of your problems.

My advice: start MC and address all M problems only in MC.


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

MyTurn said:


> finding,
> just breath and go for a walk , it will help you calm down.
> 
> I think it's best you gays stop talking about your problems for now.
> ...


he is not coming. i am going on June 18th, but i don't know what i will do till then. he lied. how can i ever trust him. i think i need to end this ? i have been crying all day.


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

i am just going to lay down and rest my eyes a bit. Clear up my head. I am still in shock.i still cant understand why he lied.and how i am going to trust him. And yes as said in my other thread, he shifted blame to me by saying he is angry because i said i will kill him if he lies. I just could not think he would lie and when i knew he did,i was very angry.it was said in anger. I didnt mean it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MyTurn (Oct 27, 2013)

finding-a-path said:


> today i told him to read this thread. he read from page 1 to 6. and he told me to add something.when we had the fight about his friend's phone call, i think it was on the latter part of 2011, so we were watching the movie, friend called, he ignored me, it went on close to one hour and i went to our room, wrote in a piece of paper something which started with "so much for couple time, why are you giving him our time" etc and i was crying in bed.he came after the call, read it and then started fighting..he said find someone else etc and put on a shirt and went,he left home and i went running after him. then i came back in and tried to take a lot of painkiller tablets. yes, i wanted to suicide... and another time in 2013, i don't remember the reason, but i tried to do the same thing. he wanted to add that i tried to suicide. i am thinking that effected him deeply and that is a reason he does not want to be close...



finding,
I will be honest with you.
He is detaching/detached from you ,probably from the suicide attemps.
I think you heve no idea how much hurt and fear he has from your attemps.Think about it: his friend called him,talked for 1 hour,you get upset-start crying and then take painkillers???WTF!! Oh,and in 2013 you do another attempt to take your life because it was so important that you do not even remember the reason? really???

think about it from his POV: You, the love of his life, decided to end your life for a phone call he didn't even do and live the rest of his life blaming him self!

finding, you need IC to find out why you did what you did and have peace with yourself.

Maybe if you guys separate for a while it will help.


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## MyTurn (Oct 27, 2013)

finding-a-path said:


> i am just going to lay down and rest my eyes a bit. Clear up my head. I am still in shock.i still cant understand why he lied.and how i am going to trust him. And yes as said in my other thread, he shifted blame to me by saying he is angry because i said i will kill him if he lies. I just could not think he would lie and when i knew he did,i was very angry.it was said in anger. I didnt mean it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




finding,
you said i will kill him if he lies. 
The key word is kill.
He triggers and he is telling this to you : 
he shifted blame to me by saying he is angry because i said i will kill him if he lies.

I think he is affraid to talk to you and be honest . He is scared.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

finding-a-path said:


> today, he explained the meaning of loving me less. he said the only difference is before, he always thought about my happiness and put me 1st and did what i want and didn't do what i dislike. now he puts what he needs 1st. the reason? there was a fight in 2012 in which he asked me to bring him something and even though i did it i later asked him why did you ask me to do it. *so he says i do not deserve that kind of dedication because he does everything for me and i asked questions when he asked me to do something simple*.


So, as I've said, you're keeping score. Both of you. You're in separate camps. As long as you're keeping score, you have no marriage and you'll end up one of you cheating or divorced. Or getting so depressed you're dead. 

So you have to make a decision: stop the petty bickering, for God's sake stop fighting - fights can't happen if one of you doesn't participate, and start making smarter choices.

And PLEASE get to a counselor and start going immediately. The way you react to him is WAY overboard. WAY overboard. Frankly, you don't sound mentally healthy. Trust me, people do NOT say 'I'm going to kill you.' Healthy people don't fight every month. Healthy people decide to kill themselves when they get ignored.

Find someone and make an appointment Monday morning.


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

MyTurn said:


> finding,
> I will be honest with you.
> He is detaching/detached from you ,probably from the suicide attemps.
> I think you heve no idea how much hurt and fear he has from your attemps.Think about it: his friend called him,talked for 1 hour,you get upset-start crying and then take painkillers???WTF!! Oh,and in 2013 you do another attempt to take your life because it was so important that you do not even remember the reason? really???on both occasions what i clearly remember is that him saying "i dont love you i dont want to live with you those words are the ones which made me thinking about suicide. yes... i did not understand what it meant for him. just as he still does not understand what his words did to me
> ...


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

turnera said:


> So, as I've said, you're keeping score. Both of you. You're in separate camps. As long as you're keeping score, you have no marriage and you'll end up one of you cheating or divorced. Or getting so depressed you're dead.
> 
> So you have to make a decision: stop the petty bickering, for God's sake stop fighting - fights can't happen if one of you doesn't participate, and start making smarter choices.
> 
> ...


i think i am depressed.i am not keeping score he is. he told me "i wont forgive what you said till i am buried dead"


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I hope you aren't planning on bringing children into that situation. Threatening to kill him or yourself because he lies or thinks he doesn't love you? I was sympathetic about the MIL situation but this other stuff is way over the top.


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

Openminded said:


> I hope you aren't planning on bringing children into that situation. Threatening to kill him or yourself because he lies or thinks he doesn't love you? I was sympathetic about the MIL situation but this other stuff is way over the top.


maybe i needed to hear it from other people to see it. but now i understand that it was too much...


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Sometimes we need the views of others. Now you are aware and can get help.


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

Openminded said:


> Sometimes we need the views of others. Now you are aware and can get help.


thank you. 1st i am going to apologize to him and then i am going to meet a voluntary counselor. i will be able to update in 11 hours or so. i have lectures today.going to go there, stay till the lunch break and go. my appointment with the other counselor is on 18th but i need to talk with someone before that


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

You are weilding your emotions like a weapon. That is not ok. Using Fear, Obligation and Guilt is emotional blackmail, which is abusive. Read the book Emotional Blackmail.

He self protects in an environment like that. Natural reaction.

Put the weapons away.

You have to create enough space and safe space for him to be himself when he is with you.

But right now your fear of abandonment is screaming so hard in your ears, consuming you that its going to take you a while to learn how to not do that.

What I am hearing is PTSD in you... Find a counselor that specializes in it. 

Www.abandoment.net
Out of the FOG - Personality Disorder Support
Look up complex post traumatic stress disorder and see if you see yourself in it.


Study.... You have a long road of recovery ahead of you as an individual. In order to effectively ask for accountability in someone else you must hold yourself accountable. WITHOUT ABUSE.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

While an extremely mild version of what you did, I used to cry when things didn't go my way. Instead of reacting to my H like an adult, I'd run away and cry. At first, he'd run after me, try to make 'whatever' up to me. But after awhile, he got tired of having to play the game with me, and he stopped. Thank God.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

A person shouldn't have to be afraid their partner will kill themselves if they leave. That is a burden no person should have to carry. You are a person in your own right. Your life should not depend on whether he is with you or not and he shouldn't feel like he has to stay with someone under threat of suicide. He should feel free to leave and that while it would hurt you, you would survive and move on. This is what would make him choose to stay. Chain him up and he'll want to leave. 

I think this is what your suicide attempts have done to him. You put chains on him. Remove the chains. Become a person who can stand on her own two feet, who would never kill herself over the words of another. You need to grow and live and learn to love life for everything it has to offer, and stop being so intently focused on him to the exclusion of all reason and feelings of self preservation.

Threats to kill another are easily said. Generally we all know most people are just trying to emphasize how deeply they feel about something and that they wouldn't literally kill that person. Considering your history of mental illness however, your husband would have no such faith that you wouldn't literally do something to harm him or yourself. Again, you are putting chains on him. Chaining your husband to you with threats of death, his or yours.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Feeling Manipulated by Suicide Threats? | Partners in Wellness


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

I went to a counselor today. i told the whole thing, from the beginning.from when we 1st met to yesterday. 

following are the things which we discussed

1) the lady said, i married him knowing his childhood issues(how he grew up without his dad) and so by now i should know that he takes things in to heart more than other people.and that he has been growing up without love and he must be wanting a lot of love to feel safe.

2) then we talked about how he has distanced himself not to get hurt and how i can bring us closer (by SHOWING him that i will not fight for small things and will not attempt suicide or leaving etc) and that when he feels i wont hurt him he will open up again

3)then we talked about me and how bad i feel every time he says "find someone else, i don't love you, let's divorce" and how it has made me stressed and depressed.and how to talk to him and request him to not say that again and say "i am angry" when he is angry.we discussed about my attempts at suicide. i told her that what made me try is was his words.. and she has given me guidelines on what to do if i ever feel like it again and she said hopefully he would not use those words again after i explain to him how they made me feel.


4) next, we discussed about his mother's issue.we talked about how i agreed to moving her in before exam given that he would provide me peace to study and we talked about boundaries too

5)we talked about his lie and drinking and smoking. she said when he feels these issues are solved he will himself get rid of the smoking and drinking and right now he has turned to those because he is stressed and feels there is no one for him.
about the lie, it is already happened now we cant change it, and she told me to ask him to be honest and not hide things in the future.

6)finally, about me saying i will kill him, she asked me how i would feel if he said that... then only i understood what a stupid thing i said. yes he lied. but he apologized and said he would never do it again so i should not have said that. i sent a text to him (he is at work) saying please forgive me.


i told her he said he will have to see for 3 months if he can forget what i said. she said, he is hurt and he loves me. if he did'nt he would not care that much about me saying " i ll kill you"


so, we will see what will happen. please pray for us to succeed.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

finding-a-path said:


> I went to a counselor today. i told the whole thing, from the beginning.from when we 1st met to yesterday.
> 
> following are the things which we discussed
> 
> ...


Sounds like you have a good counselor... Good for you! Smart move:smthumbup:


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## finding-a-path (May 1, 2014)

Blossom Leigh said:


> Sounds like you have a good counselor... Good for you! Smart move:smthumbup:


all of you have been very supportive and we talked about a lot of things which were said here. and it felt good to just sit and talk. let everything out and cry.. i was there for 2 hours.


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