# Okay Ladies, What Does Thou Thinketh of This Woman's Perspective?



## Dreald

Why Men Do Not Want to Marry & How You Can Become the Woman Who Men Want to Marry... | Attraction & Love for Women


"Before I begin, let me just share a few extracts taken from an anti-marriage website:

“My wife was a frigid, shrivelled b***h. Before we were married, we had plenty of sex, but as soon as we passed the six month mark after our wedding, she stopped being interested. My wife only f***s when she “feels sexy.” 

Translation: when I give her jewellery. She is just a withered old bag at the age of 35.”

“What security is there for men in marriage? If I cheat on my wife, she gets half my s**t. If she cheats on me, she still gets half my s**t. Why the f*** should i get married”

“We had one kid. Wife stays home, but the kid wears her out. I bust my f****** ASS 60 hrs/week and get no credit. Wife gives me guilt when I don’t throw everything down right after work to watch this screaming, annoying f****** kid so she can go out to the gym, or to some restaurant with her friends, or to her sister’s house to watch movies.

She gets to take naps during the day when the baby sleeps, and every time I call her on the cell during the day, she is at Starbucks with her Mom or friends. She says that doesn’t count as “Her time” because she’s with the baby.

I’ve had enough. I feel so undervalued and OWNED. She is so ‘entitled’ now it’s like 60 (or 70, or 80) hours a week from me is EXPECTED. Being at work from 8-7 counts as my ‘social’ time, so I am not allowed to have any friends or ever do ANYTHING outside of change F****** DIAPERS”


Hi there 
I hope you’re having a lovely day and I haven’t thrown you off with those comments above! Now I am sure that, even just by reading these words you can see the frustration, resentment and anger inside these men.

(Please note: whilst I acknowledge that marriage takes 2, and that men need to step up and take charge of their own actions as well – this website is for women, so I focus mainly on what can be done from the woman’s end).

It’s true; if I was a man in this day and age, I would be quite put off marriage to many of the the modern women in the Western world. Truth be told, the state of our society has done some really bad things to the balance of masculine-feminine and to the values of women and men.

The reason why men do not marry is actually really simple. A lot of men feel that there is nothing in it for them! And what IS in it for them when they don’t have a good woman? The fast-moving modern world that we live in has ensured that women are working longer hours, juggling more responsibilities, and progressively less able to place their men as their top priority.
In fact, most women place their children at the top of their priorities – which may seem like the best thing to do, but men can grow to resent this as their women are more fulfilled taking care of their kids than they are taking care of their men.
In the meantime, their man gets/feels neglected. Even more important – most women just have no idea how men work. They do not understand them, and most of them do not want to understand them; they’re too busy attending to their other tasks or priorities – in other words, themselves.
However, just as you want to be understood; so does your man! It’s important to not be a man-hater, or a man-basher and stop putting everything down to “Men just want sex”. This is not always true, and true love does exist.

How to become marriage material

So how do you become the kind of woman men want to marry? I will give some strategies below:

- Stop thinking of yourself. Spend 60 days taking responsibility for your man’s needs and seeing things from his perspective, no matter how hard things are for you. If you do this, he may be more receptive to your needs and you will most likely get him in a different state; a state where you can bring up the topic of your needs with him.

- Understand him, and how he works. Work out what his needs and values are, and start to understand. If you’re often 
defensive, start to seek understanding. Understanding gives you control and empowerment.

You’ll have a lot more certainty and happiness in your relationship if you start to understand that you DO have control over it – and you CAN make it better. More importantly, if you know how to meet his needs in a variety of ways better than anyone else ever could – he would have no reason not to want to be with you for as long as possible!

- Do not deny him sex regularly and do not use it as a commodity; do not ever use sex to specifically get what you want from him, if you want sex to be, for the long-term, a mutually enjoyable thing that you both share together.
Also, when you do sleep with him, be real, be honest and be generous. What do I mean by this? I mean understand him and learn why he wants sex. Don’t do it hoping it will be over soon. He knows this. He feels it.

It is very hard on a man to be sleeping with a woman who wants it to be over, and treats his sexual needs as another “chore” to be done on the list. It’s important that you make time for him, and for the both of you to be together and to keep the passion alive and kicking.

- Have high standards for yourself. Get fit, eat well. Also, just because you have had a child does not mean it’s ok to be overweight, depressed or “old” or no fun anymore. My lovely, as hard as it can be to look after so many things, and to have so many things on your mind, make it a habit to set your standards high.

If you want the great rewards and a fantastic loving husband who adores you, start by adoring him and understanding him. Understand that a man like his wife to look nice, not just for the sake of looking nice, BUT because he wants to know that his wife/girlfriend still CARES enough to bother making herself look nice for him.

This goes regardless of age. Just because a woman is 60, does not mean she can’t look good anymore. It’s more about never getting “old” on the inside, which then affects the outside.
These are a few good things that you can do to ensure you are on the right track to being the kind of woman a man wants to marry. And, it’s not all about getting a man to marry you or commit to you, it’s about starting by giving without expecting anything in return.

Men aren’t as terrible as so many women say. They are not “all the same”, and men are happy to be loyal and give to us and cherish a good woman who takes care of his needs and gives beyond herself. They are not always unreasonable creatures, there are compassionate, caring men around.

And, your man should do the same, too. Relationships are about giving."


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## Chelle D

WHy did you copy that whole websites front page & post it??

None of the words you put in the top post, are yours at all. Unless you are Renee Wade.

Are you Renee Wade? 
Otherwise, I don't get what you are trying to ask. All you did was copy her site/blog. If you're not Renee, then I think thats copy infringement.


Edit... sorry.. If you are trying to ask what my opinion of her site is.. then you should have just posted the link. Not copied the page as well.. it just makes it look like it was your words.

Personally, I think she has a few points there.. but she is also generalizing men into a pigeon whole category. Her opinions might fly for some 20 year old women, that have never married... but I don't think is practical advise for women in a troubled marriage that might be going to a marriage forum for advice & sharing of experiences.


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## Dreald

Chelle D said:


> WHy did you copy that whole websites front page & post it??
> 
> None of the words you put in the top post, are yours at all. Unless you are Renee Wade.
> 
> Are you Renee Wade?
> Otherwise, I don't get what you are trying to ask. All you did was copy her site/blog. If you're not Renee, then I think thats copy infringement.
> 
> 
> Edit... sorry.. If you are trying to ask what my opinion of her site is.. then you should have just posted the link. Not copied the page as well.. it just makes it look like it was your words.
> 
> Personally, I think she has a few points there.. but she is also generalizing men into a pigeon whole category. Her opinions might fly for some 20 year old women, that have never married... but I don't think is practical advise for women in a troubled marriage that might be going to a marriage forum for advice & sharing of experiences.


Wow....I neglected to post quotation marks and you respond the way you did? I simply posted the article and link because in other forums I'm on, folks appreciate the story included as well.

Sorry if this was offensive but perhaps it speaks volumes as to the defensiveness that some women have about why men are choosing not to marry when in fact they should look inward as to how they act as being the reason why men aren't keen to marry nowadays. I'm not saying ALL women act this way and men certainly are at fault as well, but when you have the legal system that's almost overwhelmingly stacked against them in divorce court, I thought a perspective from a FEMALE viewpoint would somehow resonate. But then again...perhaps not.


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## Chelle D

Thank you.. Yes, I guess I did over react to the copy & paste. 

The problem that I had was, I read your post first.. Thought it was your words except for the areas that were quoted with quotation marks. I was about to respond, then I clicked on the link & saw that all the words that I had mistakenly thought were yours.. were infact exactly the same as the site.

So it threw me off a bit.

No, i don't think you are offensive, or the topic is offensive. I had just assumed from reading the first post that the "Hi there..." & after were all your thoughts about those first extracts from the anti marriage sites.

I do see your point for the site. As i said, I do agree with Ren'ees viewpoints on some items. However, just taking pride in your own body & making sure you look nice for your man, and taking care of his needs when he gets home from work... All those things do not miraculously fix a troubled marriage.

If a man is cheating on his wife, it's not necessarily because she has 'let herself go". It seems like Renee is pointing most of the blame of why men don't want to get married, on women with low self esteems.


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## Dreald

Now that I look at what she wrote, I can see why you were confused about what she wrote vs. what you thought I had written. I've since corrected it to hopefully more accurately reflect those are her thoughts on why men don't want to marry as much nowadays.

I also ran across an interesting study from Pew research:

"Pew recently found that the number of women 18-34 saying that having a successful marriage is one of the most important things rose from 28 percent to 37 percent since 1997. The number of young adult men saying the same thing dropped from 35 percent to 29 percent in the same time"

LifeSiteNews Mobile | Young men giving up on marriage: ‘Women aren’t women anymore’

When you combine this with the upcoming demographic catastrophe of the West having less than 2.3 babies necessary to keep growing the population and all the financial implications it'll have on Medicare, Social Security, tax revenue, etc., this should be a HUGE wake-up call for not only women, but men as well.

But clearly Pew's research shows that while women are wanting to have a successful marriage, men are learning that the financial implications of marriage can devastate them. I speak from experience. And was only married 14 months before I realized the type of woman she was. It cost me well over $60k and yet she still claimed that I had to make her "whole" when I left the marriage. 

Will I get married again? I'd like to find a RGW. But I'll have a pre-nup and I'll date her for at least 18 months to 2 years before even considering marrying. I own the stupid decision I made but I won't be taken to the cleaners twice. 

But this perspective and the Pew research article is telling. I only mentioned this because it's clear that men are shying away from marriage. And unfortunately for many sound reasons.


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## Dreald

And here's another Youtube video that provides gov't data on why feminism has destroyed marriage and why men are giving up on the institution:

Traditional Relationships...nothing but business and a bottom line. - YouTube

It's lengthy but full of information that refutes the OLD adage that women leave men because of their lack of commitment. And it's not JUST occurring in America either (although we're far further ahead of most eastern countries).


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## aribabe

I'm a little confused honestly...

This is a marriage forum where the majority of the women are married,
Why would we honestly care if some random men don't want to get married? Lol

I don't think any man that feels uncomfortable with the idea of marriage should get married.
Finding a woman that's willing to live with you, carry your child, be monogamous, etc without a wedding ring is probably one of the easiest thing to do for men.
And I don't think there's anything wrong with that at all as long as everyone's intentions are clear.

There will always be a reason why a woman isn't "marriage material" to a man that doesn't desire to be married. And for men that would like to be married, finding a woman that is marriage material seems to be easy enough.

Ultimately, marriage is a shared and mutual endeavour. In a situtation where one partner feels the other must convince them that they are "marriage material", by following the authors list of steps a,b,c... it'll never work out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tobio

I feel really sad at that guy who refers to his child as "this screaming, annoying f****** kid" he watches.


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## richie33

tobio said:


> I feel really sad at that guy who refers to his child as "this screaming, annoying f****** kid" he watches.


Agree. Gives me douche chills.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## techmom

I hate it when feminism is blamed for everything going wrong in relationships. Feminism was needed to even the playing field between men and women, and it is still needed because of the following:

1. We are still having the abortion rights debate, even in cases of rape and incest.

2. Women still make, on average, less money than men.

3. We still need to educate girls on birth control, and birth control is under fire from conservative groups who want abstinance practiced instead of birth control, not considering that growing teenagers will want to have sex.

Men who have problems dealing with strong women without losing their manhood have no idea what real manhood is. All of this "No more Mr. Nice Guy" and "Married man sex primer" stuff is to get men to deal with feminism?

Why can't men accept women as being strong and independent of them without turning bitter and wimpy?


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## Dreald

techmom said:


> I hate it when feminism is blamed for everything going wrong in relationships. Feminism was needed to even the playing field between men and women, and it is still needed because of the following:
> 
> 1. We are still having the abortion rights debate, even in cases of rape and incest.
> 
> But no issue when a woman makes a false claim that she's on birth control and she's not -- it's called fraud. And creates a situation where a man will be paying for her fraud for at least 18 years.
> 
> 2. Women still make, on average, less money than men.
> 
> This has largely been debunked (the 70% less than men pay). Studies have shown that women gravitate to positions that do not require as much technical expertise (i.e. science, engineering, medicine), take jobs that are less dangerous (i.e. oil rig workers, fireman, policeman, etc), take time out of their career to raise children (which is often their choice or preference) which causes a loss of income and needing to go back in pay due to time off, etc. While it's not completely equal, tell me what job is? I know people who get paid a higher salary yet they do less stressfull, less time-consuming work. Is that fair? No, but it is what it is.
> 
> 3. We still need to educate girls on birth control, and birth control is under fire from conservative groups who want abstinance practiced instead of birth control, not considering that growing teenagers will want to have sex.
> 
> Some conservatives, yes, but that's a small minority of the far-Christian right. Do you not think it's someone ironic that liberals want gov't/religious groups out of their bedroom but feel that free birth control is a right?
> 
> Men who have problems dealing with strong women without losing their manhood have no idea what real manhood is. All of this "No more Mr. Nice Guy" and "Married man sex primer" stuff is to get men to deal with feminism?
> 
> No, it's having men be men and not cater to what feminism has tried to teach us. We are equal as sexes, but we ARE different.
> 
> Why can't men accept women as being strong and independent of them without turning bitter and wimpy?


I don't think men are bitter or wimpy because they're starting to refuse to accept the double standard that many women today have come to accept as their 'right' DUE to feminism or feministic-like policies. 

Much like EEOC guidelines or political correct speech. Neither are warranted or needed nowadays and primarily hurt society versus help it.


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## techmom

Dreald said:


> I don't think men are bitter or wimpy because they're starting to refuse to accept the double standard that many women today have come to accept as their 'right' DUE to feminism or feministic-like policies.
> 
> Much like EEOC guidelines or political correct speech. Neither are warranted or needed nowadays and primarily hurt society versus help it.


This statement makes no sense, there are still plenty of double standards which men take as their right as well, one of which is the right to expect to marry a virtuous women with few partners while expecting to "sow their oats" with as many women before marriage as possible. Men don't want a woman with a high desire for sex, they only say that they do. Because their insecurity will go into high gear and they fear that they will be cheated on or be compared to other men. But, they want the woman who had sex a few times in their life to all of a sudden turn on their desire because they are married.

This is my situation: My husband married me because I was a virgin and he had many partners. We get married. He expects my sex drive to kick into high gear because it is my first time, not knowing that the reason why I didn't have sex previously is because I didn't have much interest in it. So now he complains of lack of sex.:scratchhead:

Seems some men don't know what they want in a woman either...


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## Trenton

I think marriage is a two way street and both have to feel validated. She's offering one narrow, quite selfish view of a man who doesn't think too highly of his child but obviously thinks very highly of himself.

I've seen the Pew research before. It's misleading. Consider this (from Pew research on marriage):

Marriage rates are now more strongly linked to education than they have been in the past, with college graduates (64%) much more likely to be married than those who have never attended college (48%).

When you consider that women are out pacing men with regards to receiving their college degree, perhaps the trend towards women being more educated than men leads to the differentiation in Pew's statistics based upon male/female desire to get married.

And contrary to this idea that men have no reason to get married...ah, turns out both sexes are still romantics:
Far more married adults say that love (93%), making a lifelong commitment (87%) and companionship (81%) are very important reasons to get married than say the same about having children (59%) or financial stability (31%). 

Then consider that more women work now than ever before in history creating two income homes. The man shouting above...wonder if he'd think differently if his wife also worked full time and if he'd then step up to the plate to deal with his ******* baby. Something inside me doubts it.

Renee Wade found a niche and is going to make money off of it and play to women's insecurities and men's ego's. Wonderful! But not exactly admirable.


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## techmom

Trenton said:


> Then consider that more women work now than ever before in history creating two income homes. The man shouting above...wonder if he'd think differently if his wife also worked full time and if he'd then step up to the plate to deal with his ******* baby. Something inside me doubts it.
> 
> Renee Wade found a niche and is going to make money off of it and play to women's insecurities and men's ego's. Wonderful! But not exactly admirable.


Men like the one noted above see housework as "women's work" and tend to disrespect the stay at home mom. Which may lead her to not want to be intimate with him, who would want to be with a man with that attitude anyway?


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## Trenton

techmom said:


> Men like the one noted above see housework as "women's work" and tend to disrespect the stay at home mom. Which may lead her to not want to be intimate with him, who would want to be with a man with that attitude anyway?


Yeah, really bad quote to use as a way to engage women to want to be better spouses if you ask me but maybe young, vulnerable women will think this is what they deserve. Oh holy balls I hope not.


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## Dreald

techmom said:


> This statement makes no sense, there are still plenty of double standards which men take as their right as well, one of which is the right to expect to marry a virtuous women with few partners while expecting to "sow their oats" with as many women before marriage as possible. Men don't want a woman with a high desire for sex, they only say that they do. Because their insecurity will go into high gear and they fear that they will be cheated on or be compared to other men. But, they want the woman who had sex a few times in their life to all of a sudden turn on their desire because they are married.
> 
> This is my situation: My husband married me because I was a virgin and he had many partners. We get married. He expects my sex drive to kick into high gear because it is my first time, not knowing that the reason why I didn't have sex previously is because I didn't have much interest in it. So now he complains of lack of sex.:scratchhead:
> 
> Seems some men don't know what they want in a woman either...


Umm, while I can't speak for all men, I think your first comment is completely unrealistic about men believing (or wanting) a woman who has had few if any sexual partners. Maybe back when Jane Cleaver was around, but this isn't Leave it to Beaver days. 

That said, women are the gatekeepers of sexual virtue. NO man wants a woman who has slept around with so many partners that she's likely to do the same with him once married. It's FAR more difficult for a man to get sex if a woman has certain standards. But women have been told to behave just like men and therefore their 'virtue' is readily available. 

And yes, there is a double standard when it comes to sex but I can guarantee you that no man wants a LD wife. Many women are very amorous before marriage, but after they get married and kids come along....meh. But he IS still good for the 'ole ATM machine. 

As far as your LD issue -- I would suggest getting checked out by a physician. Sex obviously is an important aspect of marriage and simply because you're not that interested in it, doesn't mean he's got to put up with it. How would you react if he just wasn't "that interested in making enough money to support his family"? Would you put up with it?


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## Dreald

techmom said:


> Men like the one noted above see housework as "women's work" and tend to disrespect the stay at home mom. Which may lead her to not want to be intimate with him, who would want to be with a man with that attitude anyway?


If you're referring to me, I can assure you that I did all the cooking/grocery shopping/meal planning, most of the cleaning, all the finances, all the 'manly' fix-it stuff, etc. 

And yes, it WAS an issue but not because it was "woman's work". I resented it because there wasn't a semblance of equality in the division of our labor.


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## techmom

Dreald said:


> Umm, while I can't speak for all men, I think your first comment is completely unrealistic about men believing (or wanting) a woman who has had few if any sexual partners. Maybe back when Jane Cleaver was around, but this isn't Leave it to Beaver days.
> 
> That said, women are the gatekeepers of sexual virtue. NO man wants a woman who has slept around with so many partners that she's likely to do the same with him once married. It's FAR more difficult for a man to get sex if a woman has certain standards. But women have been told to behave just like men and therefore their 'virtue' is readily available.
> 
> And yes, there is a double standard when it comes to sex but I can guarantee you that no man wants a LD wife. Many women are very amorous before marriage, but after they get married and kids come along....meh. But he IS still good for the 'ole ATM machine.
> 
> As far as your LD issue -- I would suggest getting checked out by a physician. Sex obviously is an important aspect of marriage and simply because you're not that interested in it, doesn't mean he's got to put up with it. How would you react if he just wasn't "that interested in making enough money to support his family"? Would you put up with it?


Did you take in anything I said in my post? There are plenty of posts made by men who would prefer a women with few partners than a women who had more sexual experience than them. What difference would it make if a woman had a few partners? This is what I'm still trying to figure out. By the same token, a woman should look for a man with few partners as well, no? That is where the double standard lies, a man gets praised for having sex while females get discouraged, called ****s and tramps.

As far as my LD, I was like this all of my life and my husband knew I was like this. It has nothing to do with no "bait and switch". I make just as much money as he does, btw.


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## EleGirl

Dreald said:


> Wow....I neglected to post quotation marks and you respond the way you did? I simply posted the article and link because in other forums I'm on, folks appreciate the story included as well.
> 
> Sorry if this was offensive but perhaps it speaks volumes as to the defensiveness that some women have about why men are choosing not to marry when in fact they should look inward as to how they act as being the reason why men aren't keen to marry nowadays.


Not, it's not defensiveness to point out that a poster has copied someone else's writing and not given proper credit. When I read your post I had not idea that you copied someone else's blog. Most forums I participate on will ban a person who does this. So it's fair warning.

Add something to your OP that says what we are reading. 

Also, are you the author of the site you have a lnk to?


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## Dreald

George529 said:


> Also, here's a video that I think should be required viewing by all women: Even women are standing up to the hypocrisy of feminism - YouTube


I know several women that would try and explain away all her points...and fail miserably. 

But those same women would say "Yeah, but us women have to spend all this time and money making ourselves look good for you men and therefore the man SHOULD always pick up the tab when we go out".

But what they fail to mention is that the REASON why they spend all that time and money on THEIR looks is because it makes them more desirable and competitive in the mating game. Not because it's a selfless thing that they do for someone ELSE!

And a lot of time, they spend all that money on clothes/makeup not because it'll impress their boyfriend or husband, but because their girlfriends judge them on how she looks as well.


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## EleGirl

tobio said:


> I feel really sad at that guy who refers to his child as "this screaming, annoying f****** kid" he watches.


Yep, when I read that all I could think is that the guy must have been horrible to be married to. His poor child.


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## Trenton

Dreald said:


> I know several women that would try and explain away all her points...and fail miserably.
> 
> But those same women would say "Yeah, but us women have to spend all this time and money making ourselves look good for you men and therefore the man SHOULD always pick up the tab when we go out".
> 
> But what they fail to mention is that the REASON why they spend all that time and money on THEIR looks is because it makes them more desirable and competitive in the mating game. Not because it's a selfless thing that they do for someone ELSE!
> 
> And a lot of time, they spend all that money on clothes/makeup not because it'll impress their boyfriend or husband, but because their girlfriends judge them on how she looks as well.


I know one man who would counter all her points because I just ate dinner with him and asked him about it. I even showed him your post and the chicks website. He agreed with me 100% and said, he hopes our daughter doesn't fall for crap out there like that. 

Over appreciating our own contribution to the marriage and under appreciating our spouses is a sure way to resentment and divorce. Most couples do struggle with this. My husband and I have big time and it took awhile and a lot of work to gain appreciation for both. 

If Miss Wade was wise she would dictate that a relationship where both partners feel appreciated, heard and that their needs are being met is the ideal.

Raising women to believe that they have to be less than they are or play a role to _land _the perfect mate is really setting these women up for ultimate failure. Equity in the relationship is the only way for relationships to remain true, endearing and sustain.


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## techmom

Dreald said:


> I know several women that would try and explain away all her points...and fail miserably.
> 
> But those same women would say "Yeah, but us women have to spend all this time and money making ourselves look good for you men and therefore the man SHOULD always pick up the tab when we go out".
> 
> But what they fail to mention is that the REASON why they spend all that time and money on THEIR looks is because* it makes them more desirable and competitive in the mating game*. Not because it's a selfless thing that they do for someone ELSE!
> 
> And a lot of time, they spend all that money on clothes/makeup not because it'll impress their boyfriend or husband, but because their girlfriends judge them on how she looks as well.


As far as picking up the tab, I do that on occasions with my husband. We are 50/50 on that one. 

As for the bolded statement, when you say that it makes them more desirable, desirable to whom? Other women? Evidently not, so the point is that yes, women do make themselves more attractive physically for men, who are by nature visually stimulated. And it works. So don't be mad and angry at women for doing something that works.

Some women who bash feminism have a vested interest in doing so because they like to be taken care of by men. They want to stay with the traditional gender roles and they believe that feminism is ruining that for them. But it isn't. The original purpose of feminism was to EQUALIZE the social statuses of the genders, not to bring men down. It was for equal rights in voting, pay, birth control, and so forth.

There was a time when women were considered property of their husbands. Their husbands could force sex on them LEGALLY WITHOUT REPURCUSSION. They had no rights to vote. They had no birth control, so they kept having kids each time they had sex or as many children as the husband wanted. Women could be beaten like children and had to obey their husbands. They could not work outside the home, not without permission of their husbands. Do we want to go back to that period in time? Do we really want to roll back the clock?


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## EleGirl

Dreald said:


> And here's another Youtube video that provides gov't data on why feminism has destroyed marriage and why men are giving up on the institution:
> 
> Traditional Relationships...nothing but business and a bottom line. - YouTube
> 
> It's lengthy but full of information that refutes the OLD adage that women leave men because of their lack of commitment. And it's not JUST occurring in America either (although we're far further ahead of most eastern countries).


I'm so glad you posted this. What has happened in western countries is terrible. How is it ok for women to be able to have careers and earn good money so that they can have independence? Why do our courts allow women to decide for themselves that they can leave abusive husbands, husbands who cheat, and so forth. Women's rights have ruined everything. If this keeps up no one will be having children anymore and the human race will die off. It's all because stupid women who think they should have rights. They have brain washed the men.

:soapbox: :soapbox: :soapbox: :soapbox:


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## Dreald

techmom said:


> Did you take in anything I said in my post? There are plenty of posts made by men who would prefer a women with few partners than a women who had more sexual experience than them. What difference would it make if a woman had a few partners? This is what I'm still trying to figure out. By the same token, a woman should look for a man with few partners as well, no? That is where the double standard lies, a man gets praised for having sex while females get discouraged, called ****s and tramps.
> 
> As far as my LD, I was like this all of my life and my husband knew I was like this. It has nothing to do with no "bait and switch". I make just as much money as he does, btw.


Again, I don't think you're being realistic in thinking that men today expect a woman to only have "a few partners". 

"Did YOU take in anything I said in my posts?" (kind of a callous thing to say, wouldn't you agree?) 

It's easy for a woman to have sex. Tons of men willing to do so. It's far (or at least was) more difficult for a man to get sex -- therefore the woman traditionally has been the one to be more virtuous and not throw it around like the $.59 cent cheeseburger special at McDonalds on Wednesdays. 

Kind of like how men are expected to be the breadwinners and many women will even 'settle' for a man over another one simply because he earns more. Is that right? Is it right in today's "equality" of men and women that she wants a husband who earns more than her? Particularly since it's likely just her decision as to whether she wants to work or not and raise kids?

Your lack of wanting to have sex with your husband is a self-centered perspective, IMO. While it sounds like he knew that before you got married, it doesn't mean that your position is the correct one. Tell me how you would respond if he put his interests always or primarily above yours? And while sex isn't everything, in a healthy marriage it's something that's SHARED with someone you love. Sounds like you get the feeling you don't have to do much of that.


----------



## techmom

Dreald said:


> Again, I don't think you're being realistic in thinking that men today expect a woman to only have "a few partners".
> 
> "Did YOU take in anything I said in my posts?" (kind of a callous thing to say, wouldn't you agree?)
> 
> It's easy for a woman to have sex. Tons of men willing to do so. It's far (or at least was) more difficult for a man to get sex -- therefore the woman traditionally has been the one to be more virtuous and not throw it around like the $.59 cent cheeseburger special at McDonalds on Wednesdays.
> 
> Kind of like how men are expected to be the breadwinners and many women will even 'settle' for a man over another one simply because he earns more. Is that right? Is it right in today's "equality" of men and women that she wants a husband who earns more than her? Particularly since it's likely just her decision as to whether she wants to work or not and raise kids?
> 
> Your lack of wanting to have sex with your husband is a self-centered perspective, IMO. While it sounds like he knew that before you got married, it doesn't mean that your position is the correct one. Tell me how you would respond if he put his interests always or primarily above yours? And while sex isn't everything, in a healthy marriage it's something that's SHARED with someone you love. Sounds like you get the feeling you don't have to do much of that.


You keep bringing up earning money, feminism is for equal pay for equal work (Lily Ledbetter law). So I don't get why you keep bringing up earning money.  I guess because that is all you have to fall back on. My point is that men shouldn't make the mistake of marrying a woman who has LD before marriage thinking that he can change her. Just like a woman should not marry a man who earns less if that is not what she is looking for in a man. I thought that the original premise of your OP was to tell men to marry the lady they want, correct? Well, I think that women should do the same thing.

If a woman has LD before marriage DO NOT MARRY HER IF SEX IN MARRIAGE IS IMPORTANT TO YOU! Don't try to change her, preach to her, get her couseling, whatever, just leave her alone and find a woman with a high drive for sex like you.:soapbox:


----------



## Dreald

EleGirl said:


> I'm so glad you posted this. What has happened in western countries is terrible. How is it ok for women to be able to have careers and earn good money so that they can have independence? Why do our courts allow women to decide for themselves that they can leave abusive husbands, husbands who cheat, and so forth. Women's rights have ruined everything. If this keeps up no one will be having children anymore and the human race will die off. It's all because stupid women who think they should have rights. They have brain washed the men.
> 
> :soapbox: :soapbox: :soapbox: :soapbox:


I never said that I thought women having their own careers and earn good money so they can have independence was a bad thing. In fact, back in college I wrote a paper on the economic impact of the ERA. That was more than 20 years ago and I stated that I thought it was a GOOD thing!

And yes, while there are abusive husbands and those who cheat, and yes, it is a good thing that a woman can leave those situations, many women choose to leave not because of either cheating or abuse. Take a look at the article below:

Women Cheating About As Often As Men, Says Study - ABC News

There's a little bit of difference but not much. And many believe that women are far better than men at keeping their infidelity secret. So if the above ABCnews article is true and women are cheating almost the same as men, does that explain why over 70% of divorces are initiated by the wife? Do you think it's because of abuse??

I'm simply pointing out the hypocrisy that feminism so easily shows in it's way of thinking and placing blame on men being different from them and to which they believe is unacceptable.

And also those women who are affectionately known here on these forums as "cake eaters". They want equality went it benefits them but if not, they welcome the differences as long as they 'win' from it.


----------



## techmom

Dreald said:


> I never said that I thought women having their own careers and earn good money so they can have independence was a bad thing. In fact, back in college I wrote a paper on the economic impact of the ERA. That was more than 20 years ago and I stated that I thought it was a GOOD thing!
> 
> And yes, while there are abusive husbands and those who cheat, and yes, it is a good thing that a woman can leave those situations, many women choose to leave not because of either cheating or abuse. Take a look at the article below:
> 
> Women Cheating About As Often As Men, Says Study - ABC News
> 
> There's a little bit of difference but not much. And many believe that women are far better than men at keeping their infidelity secret. So if the above ABCnews article is true and women are cheating almost the same as men, does that explain why over 70% of divorces are initiated by the wife? Do you think it's because of abuse??
> 
> I'm simply pointing out the hypocrisy that feminism so easily shows in it's way of thinking and placing blame on men being different from them and to which they believe is unacceptable.
> 
> And also those women who are affectionately known here on these forums as "cake eaters". They want equality went it benefits them but if not, they welcome the differences as long as they 'win' from it.


Men have been cake eating throughout history, women just recently started. I think all of this resentment from men is because they are now getting a taste of their own medicine and are feeling insecure like women used to be.


----------



## Dreald

techmom said:


> You keep bringing up earning money, feminism is for equal pay for equal work (Lily Ledbetter law). So I don't get why you keep bringing up earning money. I guess because that is all you have to fall back on. My point is that men shouldn't make the mistake of marrying a woman who has LD before marriage thinking that he can change her. Just like a woman should not marry a man who earns less if that is not what she is looking for in a man. I thought that the original premise of your OP was to tell men to marry the lady they want, correct? Well, I think that women should do the same thing.
> 
> If a woman has LD before marriage DO NOT MARRY HER IF SEX IN MARRIAGE IS IMPORTANT TO YOU! Don't try to change her, preach to her, get her couseling, whatever, just leave her alone and find a woman with a high drive for sex like you.:soapbox:


WHERE did I bring up money in the post you're responding to? In my analogy? Are you really being serious? It was an attempt to have you better understand but looks as though that fell on deaf ears (and mind). 

With regards to your comment about don't marrying a woman if sex is important to you, can you share with me what you offer your husband that he can't otherwise obtain on his own WITHOUT being married? He can have kids...he can have sex with others...he likely can cook...he can find companionship....

Seriously, I'm being honest. I believe most men (and women for that matter) feel like sex binds them to one another and is an expression of love. In its essence it's a pretty damn good marital glue. It's not everything, but it is important -- otherwise we wouldn't see countless posts from both sexes expressing their unhappiness with it. I'm just curious why you feel entitled to remain LD and that your husband should simply put up with it because he knew you were like that before you got married. It's something you could change if you wanted to but won't. I would hope that the two of you could grow together and become someone greater than who you were before being married but naturally there has to be an effort from both parties.


----------



## techmom

Dreald said:


> WHERE did I bring up money in the post you're responding to? In my analogy? Are you really being serious? It was an attempt to have you better understand but looks as though that fell on deaf ears (and mind).
> 
> With regards to your comment about don't marrying a woman if sex is important to you, can you share with me what you offer your husband that he can't otherwise obtain on his own WITHOUT being married? He can have kids...he can have sex with others...he likely can cook...he can find companionship....
> 
> Seriously, I'm being honest. I believe most men (and women for that matter) feel like sex binds them to one another and is an expression of love. In its essence it's a pretty damn good marital glue. It's not everything, but it is important -- otherwise we wouldn't see countless posts from both sexes expressing their unhappiness with it. I'm just curious why you feel entitled to remain LD and that your husband should simply put up with it because he knew you were like that before you got married. It's something you could change if you wanted to but won't. I would hope that the two of you could grow together and become someone greater than who you were before being married but naturally there has to be an effort from both parties.


My question would be, why would he be entitled to his HD and why insist on marrying me even though he knew we were not compatible in the sex aspect of our relationship.

Do you feel that men should attempt to change their LD partners into HD? Why not just marry a HD lady? Why is that so hard and difficult to understand? You can save half of the headache and misery for both partners.

Just to clarify, we do have sex, just not as much as he would want. It has been like that before and after marriage.


----------



## techmom

Also, the reason why I keep bringing up money is that you keep bringing it up yourself...



> Kind of like how men are expected to be the breadwinners and many women will even 'settle' for a man over another one simply because he earns more. Is that right? Is it right in today's "equality" of men and women that she wants a husband who earns more than her? Particularly since it's likely just her decision as to whether she wants to work or not and raise kids?


Women have the right to marry who they want to just like men have the right to marry who they want.


----------



## Dreald

techmom said:


> Men have been cake eating throughout history, women just recently started. I think all of this resentment from men is because they are now getting a taste of their own medicine and are feeling insecure like women used to be.


Wow, that's all that you took away from the rather lengthy response I gave you and the informative article from ABCNews, eh?

Do you have any evidence of what you believe as "fact" yet reads as your simple opinion? 

You are a classic case of "Low information believer" -- one who can't address facts and instead relies on their opinion because they've heard it enough, agrees with their perspective and consequently becomes "fact".


----------



## techmom

Dreald said:


> Wow, that's all that you took away from the rather lengthy response I gave you and the informative article from ABCNews, eh?
> 
> Do you have any evidence of what you believe as "fact" yet reads as your simple opinion?
> 
> You are a classic case of "Low information believer" -- one who can't address facts and instead relies on their opinion because they've heard it enough, agrees with their perspective and consequently becomes "fact".


Just like you do with my posts....


----------



## staarz21

I've been reading through this and I think this was just a "fire starting" thread. In all honesty did you think that posting negative things about women in the ladies forum was going to get you very far? 

This in particular made me giggle:



> .....Or MAYBE men just don't like women having certain things unfairly stacked against them? What does it matter what men did in the past? We're dealing with the here and now and men today should not have to deal with things being unfair just because of what our ancestors did.


So, what you're saying is you are *jealous* that not only did women step it up and stop taking crap from some men over the years, but that we are better at it too?! Awesome! Thanks for clearing that up. 

My husband and I have our issues, but we treat each other with respect (most of the time) and it's 50/50 with us. I stay at home and he goes to work, but I make damn sure my work is done, aside from the kids, and I have time to spend with him before bed. I never ask for material things other than make-up or clothes occasionally when they are needed as I hardly stay up to date with fashion these days, jeans and cute tops will always be in style. My husband even begs me to do things for myself for a change. I keep up with him in the bedroom and I like it! He even gives our son a bath every night after he gets home from work and *gasp* he helps with housework when I am overwhelmed. I make sure to tell him I appreciate him and I love him dearly and he does the same for me. 

Generalizing these statements that all women have reverted to being cheaters and sex crazy monkeys who want your money and your stuff is ridiculous. I didn't take sh!t from my ex husband. Not money, not cars, not the stupid house, not anything from him and he makes well over 150k a year AND he is the one that cheated! I didn't want his crap. I moved out into a nasty 1 bedroom apartment for 450.00 a month until I got done with college. I didn't care. It's just stuff. 

Now, men like you are mad that some women are acting the same way men have been acting for years and you're all butt-hurt over it? Don't get married. We don't care! :rofl: Eat your heart out!


----------



## staarz21

George529 said:


> Also, women DO care a lot more about their potential partner having status/money. Even if a guy is real great it's negative points taken off if he say just has a HS degree and is working at mcdonalds regardless if the woman is even a "gold digger" yet as far as a man is concerned, so long as she's pretty and fun she could be a high school drop out and make very little.



And to add to this which is also making me laugh. My ex husband made over 150k a year (he didn't start making that much until AFTER we were married by the way). My current husband and I just filed our taxes for this year.....29k. Yep. 29,000.00 for the entire year. He is in the military. I am way happier with him than I ever was with my ex.


----------



## Trenton

George529 said:


> Also, women DO care a lot more about their potential partner having status/money. Even if a guy is real great it's negative points taken off if he say just has a HS degree and is working at mcdonalds regardless if the woman is even a "gold digger" yet as far as a man is concerned, so long as she's pretty and fun she could be a high school drop out and make very little.


Funny, because according to Pew research money/status is not the primary factor in deciding a mate...love is.


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## techmom

George529 said:


> Also, women DO care a lot more about their potential partner having status/money. Even if a guy is real great it's negative points taken off if he say just has a HS degree and is working at mcdonalds regardless if the woman is even a "gold digger" *yet as far as a man is concerned, so long as she's pretty and fun she could be a high school drop out and make very little.*


So, what would you say to women who complain that men are all into looks? Why doesn't personality count as much as looks when men pick the woman they want?

Just like men complain about women who prefer a certain status in men, there are women who complain that men like a certain "look" in the woman they pick.


----------



## techmom

There are also men who prefer women who make less than them because they want that "edge" in the relationship. There is plenty of studies that support this.


----------



## EleGirl

Dreald said:


> I never said that I thought women having their own careers and earn good money so they can have independence was a bad thing. In fact, back in college I wrote a paper on the economic impact of the ERA. That was more than 20 years ago and I stated that I thought it was a GOOD thing!


I was responding with humor to a link you gave to a youtube rant about how feminism is (meaning financial independence and independence to make life choices) ruining everything. 


Dreald said:


> And yes, while there are abusive husbands and those who cheat, and yes, it is a good thing that a woman can leave those situations, many women choose to leave not because of either cheating or abuse. Take a look at the article below:
> Women Cheating About As Often As Men, Says Study - ABC News


OK so women cheat at almost the same rate as men do. Men have affairs for some of the same reasons women do… they are not happy at home or they just can and they just want to. How does this make women worse than men? Can you explain that? 

To assume that those women are divorcing for no good reason is ridiculous. 

Sure some of them might be divorcing for reasons that seem frivolous like they are not happy. But men divorce for that same reason.

Here are some stories that I know go along with the story that women file for divorce most of the time. I have 4 sisters. Here is the short story of the 5 of us in our marriages.

I’ve been divorced 3 times. Each time I filed because my then husband would not file. Each of them was happy to let things go as they were. So I was put in a position that I HAD to file for divorce for my own sanity and safety.

My first husband was physically abusive to the point of trying to kill me with a straight razor. That was the last day I was with him. I filed and paid for the divorce. I was the breadwinner as well.

IN my second marriage I was the breadwinner while he went through medical school & residency. He was emotionally abusive and became physically abusive in the last 4 years or so. He also cheated with many women during our marriage.

In my 3rd marriage I filed for divorce. We both worked and earned the same amount in the first 2 years of marriage. I was again the bread winner for 10 years because he lost this job and refused to look for another one. So he spent 10 years playing computer games and not helping out at home or helping to raise his two children. I raised his children. I filed for divorce in 3/2012 once his children and my son were out of high school. 

(I give up on marriage by the way. It’s obviously not my thing.)

Sister #1 filed for divorce… he husband cheated on her for their entire 25 year marriage. Each time she discovered an affair he promised to never do it again. She finally gave up and filed for divorce. She earned as much as he or more during their entire marriage.

Sister #2- filed for divorce from first husband when their children were under 5. He was abusive and cheated on her. She filed after he pulled a gun on her and threatened to kill her and their 4 year old son.

Sister #2 filed for divorce from her second marriage…. When she discovered that he’d had 3 long term affairs during their 20 year marriage. He was seriously emotionally abusive of her. She worked as a school teacher during their marriage.

Sister#3 – Filed for divorce after a 1 yr marriage because her husband beat her and raped her the day she came home from the hospital after a miscarriage. He beat/raped her because she found out that he was screwing a girl who lived in their apartment building while she was in the hospital.

Sister#3-Filed for divorce because after 25 years of marriage because he was having an affair. After discovering that affair, she found out about other affairs. She is a licensed professional engineer and earned the same income he did.

Sister#4… the only one of us who has not divorced. Has been married since 1982.

I could go through my female friends as well. There are some really bad stories there too. But in almost every case they, the wife filed, and it was because of a husband who was emotionally and/or physically abusive. In almost every case their husband was cheating as well.

I can think of two of my female friends who filed for divorce for reasons that seemed to make no sense.

And yes I also have girlfriends who have been happy long term marriages. 





Dreald said:


> I'm simply pointing out the hypocrisy that feminism so easily shows in it's way of thinking and placing blame on men being different from them and to which they believe is unacceptable.


There is no one big camp of women called ‘feminist’ or and doctrine called ‘feminism’ that states what you claim here. Sure you can find some small subset of women who might thing what you have stated here. But for most women feminism simply mean women having equal rights and equal pay as men to. That’s it. 

Most women do not believe what you claim here.

Look at the hateful quotes you posted in your OP. I’d be an idiot to believe that most men believe along the lines of those quotes. Most men and most women are good people and do not believe along the lines of the stuff you are posting here.




Dreald said:


> And also those women who are affectionately known here on these forums as "cake eaters". They want equality went it benefits them but if not, they welcome the differences as long as they 'win' from it .


And what women here on this forum are known affectionately as “cake eaters”? When we use the term “cake eaters” on this forum we are talking about men and women who are cheating and want both their affair partner and their spouse.

If you think that any of us women here are “cake eaters” please give the list of names so that they can defend themselves.


----------



## staarz21

> My point was there can be a woman that may not be very materialistic at all, *but still, a man having any kind of decent income/status will be looked at more favorably regardless.*


You just said it there again in that sentence. That is not true at all for some of us. I could care less about money. Seriously. In fact, I may be more turned off by a man that makes a significant amount of money because typically, they are obnoxious and really into themselves...from what I have run into anyway. Not saying they all are, but I am just not turned on by money at all.


----------



## Dreald

techmom said:


> As far as picking up the tab, I do that on occasions with my husband. We are 50/50 on that one.
> 
> ** Great, your personal circumstances. I'm talking about the majority of other people.*
> 
> As for the bolded statement, when you say that it makes them more desirable, desirable to whom? Other women? Evidently not, so the point is that yes, women do make themselves more attractive physically for men, who are by nature visually stimulated. And it works. So don't be mad and angry at women for doing something that works.
> 
> ** I'm not mad techmom -- can you not see the hypocrisy here? Yes, women DO want to be desired/wanted/cherished. Men DO want women for beauty/sex/children. Much of a women's value is the way they look (and if you want to disagree with that too, consider how much money is spent on cosmetics, clothes, plastic surgery, weight loss programs, etc etc. -- all of which are done by women, NOT forced to by men). And women compete among themselves for who is prettier too. But it's NOT because men "demand" it -- it's because women know if they don't, a man mind be more interested/attracted to another woman who is simply more naturally beautiful or younger. It's hypocrisy at it's best because many women justify this in saying that if a man wants them to look good and because it costs money, then the man has to pick up the expenses of dating/courtship. It benefits the woman by keeping her man interested but why should the man be expected to pick up that competitive advantage for her? Does a woman say "Gee, I know those hair transplants, nicer tailored suit, fancier car, etc. costs money and to which I find quite attractive, so let me pick up the cost of our date together or at the very least share in its expense." Think that happens much??*
> 
> Some women who bash feminism have a vested interest in doing so because they like to be taken care of by men. They want to stay with the traditional gender roles and they believe that feminism is ruining that for them. But it isn't. The original purpose of feminism was to EQUALIZE the social statuses of the genders, not to bring men down. It was for equal rights in voting, pay, birth control, and so forth.
> 
> ** Feminism is a recent phenomenon that has destroyed the gender roles and one in which women are waking up and find finding that it's not really been to their complete advantage. You talk about the abuse of women and their suffrage but really -- how much of that is extrapolated from a very small minority in which to substantiate your position? And I'd say that many women APPRECIATE a man who is willing and able to take care of them. You must be an exception however. And do not try and construe feminism for equal rights. They're far different from one another but I believe it unlikely that you'll take the time to educate yourself on those differences. *
> 
> There was a time when women were considered property of their husbands. Their husbands could force sex on them LEGALLY WITHOUT REPURCUSSION. They had no rights to vote. They had no birth control, so they kept having kids each time they had sex or as many children as the husband wanted. Women could be beaten like children and had to obey their husbands. They could not work outside the home, not without permission of their husbands. Do we want to go back to that period in time? Do we really want to roll back the clock?


** Um, I think the term property is a bit misleading don't you think? If you really believe that, then how can you possibly explain the whole concept of marriage, it's religious importance and the role of the church and State in its development and enforcement? 

Honestly techmom, it appears difficult for you to follow my line of reasoning and we're getting so side-tracked off the original subject I posted so I'll simply say, best of luck to you and your HD husband.*


----------



## techmom

George529 said:


> Can you please point to one?


Women who earn more than men: Men don’t like it. - Slate Magazine


----------



## staarz21

> Women, really don't care about looks like men do


This is horse sh!t too. lol. Call me shallow but I am not about to just jump into the sack with some one I do not find physically attractive. My husband is HOT!!!!!! Dark hair, blue eyes, nice body...mmm I wish he were home right now. If he didn't match what I was looking for physically, I would have never considered him as a partner. Sorry, but in order for my sex drive to remain high, he has to look good (as do I to him).


----------



## techmom

Marriages in Which Wife Makes More Tend to Be Unhappier, but Why? | The Stir


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

What is the point to this post? You intentionally incite and then argue with the women here about how they are wrong. Since you seem to not want to hear womens opinions on this subject, I can only conclude that this was nothing but a baiting post.


----------



## EleGirl

Dreald said:


> And yes, there is a double standard when it comes to sex but I can guarantee you that no man wants a LD wife. Many women are very amorous before marriage, but after they get married and kids come along....meh. But he IS still good for the 'ole ATM machine.
> 
> As far as your LD issue -- I would suggest getting checked out by a physician. Sex obviously is an important aspect of marriage and simply because you're not that interested in it, doesn't mean he's got to put up with it. How would you react if he just wasn't "that interested in making enough money to support his family"? Would you put up with it?


Did you know:

the percentage ofboth men and women who are low drive is about the same? 
high drive women are just as frustrated in their marriage with lack of sex when they make the mistake of marrying a LD man?
In sexless marriages, it’s as likely that the husband chose to end sex in the marriage as it is that the woman does this?


----------



## techmom

EleGirl said:


> Did you know:
> 
> the percentage ofboth men and women who are low drive is about the same?
> high drive women are just as frustrated in their marriage with lack of sex when they make the mistake of marrying a LD man?
> In sexless marriages, it’s as likely that the husband chose to end sex in the marriage as it is that the woman does this?


Thanks for this post! Men and women are equally responsible for the decline of sex in marriage.


----------



## techmom

Therealbrighteyes said:


> What is the point to this post? You intentionally incite and then argue with the women here about how they are wrong. Since you seem to not want to hear womens opinions on this subject, I can only conclude that this was nothing but a baiting post.


Evidently he is a bitter man who has some beef against women. He also seems to resent women who choose higher earning/high status men but defends the right of men to choose women according to their looks. He also rails against feminism, saying that it destroys marriage.

Maybe he belongs back in the 1800s, he would have been happy then, lol.


----------



## EleGirl

George529 said:


> What are the age range of said "men"? Teens, early 20s?
> And could you give me a few examples of the posts?


There are many threads on here on which the men who post here go on and on about how they will only marry a woman with very few previous partners. The woman definitely has to have fewer previous partners than he's had. We've gone round and round on this topic. The men were not teens either. They fall in every age range.


George529 said:


> Also, here's a video that I think should be required viewing by all women: Even women are standing up to the hypocrisy of feminism - YouTube


Really? Every woman needs to listen to a rant by some foul mouthed young girl who has no idea what we believe and how we live our lives? 

Why do the men on this thread feel that they need to insult women? What’s going on here?


----------



## EleGirl

Dreald said:


> I know several women that would try and explain away all her points...and fail miserably.
> 
> But those same women would say "Yeah, but us women have to spend all this time and money making ourselves look good for you men and therefore the man SHOULD always pick up the tab when we go out".
> 
> But what they fail to mention is that the REASON why they spend all that time and money on THEIR looks is because it makes them more desirable and competitive in the mating game. Not because it's a selfless thing that they do for someone ELSE!
> 
> And a lot of time, they spend all that money on clothes/makeup not because it'll impress their boyfriend or husband, but because their girlfriends judge them on how she looks as well.


So you choose to hang out with air head women and then you complain that the women you hang out with are air heads? And further you then extrapolate that all women are like these air head women you talk about. Really?????? :scratchhead:


----------



## Dreald

staarz21 said:


> I've been reading through this and I think this was just a "fire starting" thread. In all honesty did you think that posting negative things about women in the ladies forum was going to get you very far?
> 
> This in particular made me giggle:
> 
> 
> 
> So, what you're saying is you are *jealous* that not only did women step it up and stop taking crap from some men over the years, but that we are better at it too?! Awesome! Thanks for clearing that up.
> 
> My husband and I have our issues, but we treat each other with respect (most of the time) and it's 50/50 with us. I stay at home and he goes to work, but I make damn sure my work is done, aside from the kids, and I have time to spend with him before bed. I never ask for material things other than make-up or clothes occasionally when they are needed as I hardly stay up to date with fashion these days, jeans and cute tops will always be in style. My husband even begs me to do things for myself for a change. I keep up with him in the bedroom and I like it! He even gives our son a bath every night after he gets home from work and *gasp* he helps with housework when I am overwhelmed. I make sure to tell him I appreciate him and I love him dearly and he does the same for me.
> 
> Generalizing these statements that all women have reverted to being cheaters and sex crazy monkeys who want your money and your stuff is ridiculous. I didn't take sh!t from my ex husband. Not money, not cars, not the stupid house, not anything from him and he makes well over 150k a year AND he is the one that cheated! I didn't want his crap. I moved out into a nasty 1 bedroom apartment for 450.00 a month until I got done with college. I didn't care. It's just stuff.
> 
> Now, men like you are mad that some women are acting the same way men have been acting for years and you're all butt-hurt over it? Don't get married. We don't care! :rofl: Eat your heart out!


I would not only say you are an exception nowadays -- for every woman that walks away with nothing in return, I bet there are dozens of women who take their exhusband to the cleaners. Even when they were the ones who cheated. 

Many (not ALL) women are NOT like you or have the same position you do as to what they do for their husband, their appreciation and respect for him and the lack of focus on material possessions.

This post initially started off with why men are foregoing marriage because of the way that women are acting towards men today (the article was written by a woman too). And that the financial implications for a man are more often greater than for a woman. 

I thought it was telling and ironic that more and more women are starting to agree with the stacked-deck aspect of marriage and how men are the ones who more often than not, pay the price.


----------



## techmom

Dreald said:


> ** Um, I think the term property is a bit misleading don't you think? If you really believe that, then how can you possibly explain the whole concept of marriage, it's religious importance and the role of the church and State in its development and enforcement?
> 
> Honestly techmom, it appears difficult for you to follow my line of reasoning and we're getting so side-tracked off the original subject I posted so I'll simply say, best of luck to you and your HD husband.*


Your only line of reasoning is that women should serve men. The original concept of marriage was created control property rights, it had nothing to do with love. Marriage as an institution was based on families who wanted to share resources, they arranged marriages and the church became involved because of the money, nothing else. Families paid tithes to the church, which was mandatory.

In biblical times, marriages were arranged to share property between families. It had nothing to do with love, they produced offspring who would be responsible for carrying the families' bloodlines.

All of this romantic stuff came along much later


----------



## techmom

George529 said:


> Dreald IS a woman btw.


Evidently there are many self-hating women out here, so sad...


----------



## Dreald

Therealbrighteyes said:


> What is the point to this post? You intentionally incite and then argue with the women here about how they are wrong. Since you seem to not want to hear womens opinions on this subject, I can only conclude that this was nothing but a baiting post.


Nope, just pointing out why men don't want to marry as much today.

Since it was written from a woman, I wanted to hear your thoughts. I've received a lot of defensiveness, rationalization and blame-shifting. 

In order to support my belief in what I've experienced as well as seeing in other relationships, as well as what is trending among men, I used other articles to explain away the excuses or blame-shifting aspects a couple of posters attempted. Seems like it did incense a few here -- but sometimes the truth hurts.


----------



## EleGirl

Dreald said:


> With regards to your comment about don't marrying a woman if sex is important to you, can you share with me what you offer your husband that he can't otherwise obtain on his own WITHOUT being married? He can have kids...he can have sex with others...he likely can cook...he can find companionship....


I think you left the LD out of that first sentence.
Please tell us what her husband has to offer her that she cannot otherwise obtain on her own WITHOUT being married?



Dreald said:


> In its essence it's a pretty damn good marital glue. It's not everything, but it is important -- otherwise we wouldn't see countless posts from both sexes expressing their unhappiness with it. *I'm just curious why you feel entitled to remain LD* and that your husband should simply put up with it because he knew you were like that before you got married. It's something you could change if you wanted to but won't. I would hope that the two of you could grow together and become someone greater than who you were before being married but naturally there has to be an effort from both parties.


A person cannot always change their sex drive. Do you think that there is a magic pill that does this?


----------



## EleGirl

George529 said:


> .....Or MAYBE men just don't like women having certain things unfairly stacked against them? What does it matter what men did in the past? We're dealing with the here and now and men today should not have to deal with things being unfair just because of what our ancestors did.


What are men dealing with today that is unfair?


----------



## EleGirl

George529 said:


> Also, women DO care a lot more about their potential partner having status/money. Even if a guy is real great it's negative points taken off if he say just has a HS degree and is working at mcdonalds regardless if the woman is even a "gold digger" yet as far as a man is concerned, so long as she's pretty and fun she could be a high school drop out and make very little.


Not the men I know. I know very few educated men today who will mary a 'girl' who works at McDonalds. IF she's pretty and fun he'll date her. But he will marry a woman who has an education equal to his and who earns about what he earns.


----------



## techmom

EleGirl said:


> Really? Every woman needs to listen to a rant by some foul mouthed young girl who has no idea what we believe and how we live our lives?
> 
> Why do the men on this thread feel that they need to insult women? What’s going on here?


Every self hating rant by a woman is presented as undisputed evidence that feminism is the cause of all the troubles in marriages today. By the men who secretly resent women and women who secretly resent themselves and believe that religious crap about how women are the downfall of mankind.

So sad....


----------



## EleGirl

George529 said:


> How the HELL did you get that from what I posted? I don't deny that in the past the pendulum was swung to far to the left, but now in many cases (such as child custody, divorce laws) it's to far to the right.


Divorce laws are equal for men and women todday. Divorce laws do not say that man gets this or pays that. They do not say that the woman gets this or pays that.

They are based on length of marriage, joint income, who has historically been the pirmary care giver of the children.

A woman who earns more than her husband will be treated in the same manner as a man who earns more than his wife.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Dreald said:


> Nope, just pointing out why men don't want to marry as much today.
> 
> .


Groovy. Nearly everybody here is already married. What I can't figure out is why it matters if they want to marry or not. Many chose to stay single both men and women. That's their choice.


----------



## EleGirl

George529 said:


> But in the end women have ultimate control over sex. Many women withold sex from a man as "punishment".


You need to do some reading on the topic of men who withhold sex from their wifes. Men do this as often as women do. The men do it because they are resentful and punishing their wives.


----------



## Dreald

techmom said:


> Your only line of reasoning is that women should serve men.
> 
> *Nope, that's a weak retort too. I believe that men and women were made to serve each other, giving yourself entirely, with God as your center. This concept tends to make folks who are self-centered or selfish, think beyond themselves. You are not the most important thing in life. Many fail to grasp this concept.*
> 
> The original concept of marriage was created control property rights, it had nothing to do with love.
> 
> Marriage as an institution was based on families who wanted to share resources, they arranged marriages and the church became involved because of the money, nothing else. Families paid tithes to the church, which was mandatory.
> 
> *Huh. Sounds like you're integrating eastern and western definitions of marriage in order to support your position. Would love to know where you gathered your wealth of knowledge. *
> 
> In biblical times, marriages were arranged to share property between families. It had nothing to do with love, they produced offspring who would be responsible for carrying the families' bloodlines.
> 
> All of this romantic stuff came along much later


*Why am I NOT surprised that you likely haven't read the bible or believe in Christ's teachings....nah, nowhere does it say how a man should love and respect his wife and they are equals in the eyes of God.....

"And the Lord God said, 'It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him" (Genesis 2:18 NKJV).

From the beginning of time, God intended for men to enjoy the companionship of women. This verse states that woman is comparable to man, showing that in the marriage relationship, both men and woman are of equal value in God's eyes.

Did they not teach that in your women's studies? LOL*


----------



## Dreald

EleGirl said:


> You need to do some reading on the topic of men who withhold sex from their wifes. Men do this as often as women do. The men do it because they are resentful and punishing their wives.


Although it's anecdotal (much like I assume your premise) I can honestly say that while I have seen men withholding sex from their wife, it's far more common for the man to write that their wife either withholds or limits sex with them. 

But that's just my perspective from what I've read here.


----------



## Trenton

Some individuals choose to live within their own misery and they view the world that way. It's not surprising really.


----------



## EleGirl

George529 said:


> BS! Of course that is what that may say on paper but in reality it is FAR from the truth, just look at my example of a friend of mine a few pages back. And she CHEATED.
> 
> Here are some good articles:
> 
> Why Do Divorce Laws Marginalize Men? - AskMen
> 
> Divorce Laws Are Unfair to Men, 'Sexist' Attorney Says : Justice: Lawyer specializes in pleading case for males. He wants to force 'gold-digging' wives to go to work. - Los Angeles Times
> 
> 
> 
> Women have most of the power when it comes to divorce and children. I probably wouldn't even have my daughter had her mother not just up and left. Which was probably for the best since she's probably hooked on drugs somewhere....


I'm sorry. I'm a high earner woman. I and my female friends earn 6 figures or more. Most of us are the bread winners in our marriages. And yes we have been treated in the same way as high earner, bead winning males are. 

And yes even when our husbands cheat on us.. they still take us to the cleaners and the courts help them do it.


----------



## Catherine602

George529 said:


> It comes down to biology. Women, really don't care about looks like men do. A guy can be unconventially attractive but if he's really funny and/or charming it's easier to look past.
> 
> On the flipside, if a woman is physically unattractive (which keep in mind, attractive is different for every man, there are men that genuinely find obese women attractive) to him no matter how funny/nice she may be he will just not be attracted to her. I'm not saying it's fair, but blame nature for that.
> 
> 
> Can you please point to one?


Umm you do know that your belief that looks don't matter in mate selection for men but it does for women, is self- serving and untrue? 

If I didn't know better, I would assume that all men were pleasing specimens to behold and women varied on the looks scale. Or that no matter how unfortunate a man's looks, he has access to the most attractive women. 

All he needs is a good personality and sense of humor and spare change. Have you ever actually seen this in nature? 

I noticed that there are as many ugly men as there are ugly women. The old saying that there is someone for everyone is true.

If you want to talk nature, if all ugly people were shunned as partners and child bearers, then everyone would be beautiful, right? 

In reality, there is a variation in looks on a normal scale in every population in the world. Like marries like. Ugly women are as likely to marry and have offspring as average or pretty women. 

Men live under the same natural forces as women. I guess the visual cortex of ugly men are down-regulated in keeping with the level of mate they will be able to attract. 

This end of marriage stuff comes up every 40 - 50 years as the status of women change. Men have not changed much in the preceeding 200 yrs but women have changed tremendously. 

The adjustment must be difficult for men. So much so that they go through these periods of frantically attempting to get the genie back into the pot. 

The number of marriages is decreasing because more women and men don't want to get married. 50 yrs ago, women had no choice. They do now.


----------



## techmom

Dreald said:


> *Why am I NOT surprised that you likely haven't read the bible or believe in Christ's teachings....nah, nowhere does it say how a man should love and respect his wife and they are equals in the eyes of God.....
> 
> "And the Lord God said, 'It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him" (Genesis 2:18 NKJV).
> 
> From the beginning of time, God intended for men to enjoy the companionship of women. This verse states that woman is comparable to man, showing that in the marriage relationship, both men and woman are of equal value in God's eyes.
> 
> Did they not teach that in your women's studies? LOL*


Maybe not, but they taught me this:

Genesis-
26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

27 *So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.*
28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”

So, male and female were created AT THE SAME TIME according to this quote. We were made EQUALLY by the Creator, by whatever name you call him. You can look this up if you want. Feminism is just correcting all of the wrongs made against women in history.

You need to read the books yourself instead of taking the pastor's word for it, lol.


----------



## Dreald

techmom said:


> Your only line of reasoning is that women should serve men. The original concept of marriage was created control property rights, it had nothing to do with love. Marriage as an institution was based on families who wanted to share resources, they arranged marriages and the church became involved because of the money, nothing else. Families paid tithes to the church, which was mandatory.
> 
> In biblical times, marriages were arranged to share property between families. It had nothing to do with love, they produced offspring who would be responsible for carrying the families' bloodlines.
> 
> All of this romantic stuff came along much later


Here, let me Google that for you:

Bible Verses About Marriage: 20 Great Scripture Quotes


----------



## EleGirl

Dreald said:


> Although it's anecdotal (much like I assume your premise) I can honestly say that while I have seen men withholding sex from their wife, it's far more common for the man to write that their wife either withholds or limits sex with them.
> 
> But that's just my perspective from what I've read here.


No my points are not an anecdotes. Here is one of many books on the topic. 

"Why Men Stop Having Sex: Men, the Phenomenon of Sexless Relationships, and What You Can Do About It "
Bob Berkowitz 

Men withhold sex as often as women do. This is recognized by those in the sex therapist field. Women are not as vocal about their husbands rejecting them because women have been taught that men always want sex so women are so humiliated by it that they seldom discuss it with anyone.


----------



## techmom

Catherine602 said:


> If I didn't know better, I would assume that all men were pleasing specimens to behold and women varied on the looks scale. Or that no matter how unfortunate a man's looks he has access to the most attractive women. All he needs is a good personality and sense of humor and spare change.
> 
> Have you ever actually seen this in nature?
> 
> I noticed that there are as many ugly men as there are ugly women. The old saying that there is someone for everyone is true.
> 
> If you want to talk nature, if all ugly people were shunned as partners and child bearers, then everyone would be beautiful, right?
> 
> In reality, there is a variation in looks on a normal scale in every population in the world. Like marries like. Ugly women are as likely to marry and have offspring as average or pretty women.
> 
> Men live under the same natural forces as women. I guess the visual cortex of ugly men are down-regulated in keeping with the level of mate they will be able to attract.
> 
> This end of marriage stuff comes up every 40 - 50 years as the status of women change. Men have not change much in the preceeding 200 yrs but women have changed tremendously.
> 
> The adjustment must be difficult for men. So much so that they go through these periods of frantically attempting to get the genie back into the pot.
> 
> The number of marriages is decreasing because more women and men don't want to get married. 50 yrs ago, women had no choice. They do now.


:iagree:


----------



## techmom

Dreald said:


> Here, let me Google that for you:
> 
> Bible Verses About Marriage: 20 Great Scripture Quotes


Understandably you didn't answer my other post above...


----------



## techmom

techmom said:


> Maybe not, but they taught me this:
> 
> Genesis-
> 26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
> 
> 27 *So God created mankind in his own image,
> in the image of God he created them;
> male and female he created them.*
> 28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”
> 
> So, male and female were created AT THE SAME TIME according to this quote. We were made EQUALLY by the Creator, by whatever name you call him. You can look this up if you want. Feminism is just correcting all of the wrongs made against women in history.
> 
> You need to read the books yourself instead of taking the pastor's word for it, lol.


----------



## techmom

George529 said:


> Actually, they weren't created at the same time:
> 
> 18 The Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.”
> 
> the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds in the sky and all the wild animals.
> 
> But for Adam[f] no suitable helper was found. 21 So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs[g] and then closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib[h] he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.


Adam was created AFTER these male and female beings were created, look in the book....

Genesis 1 NIV - The Beginning - In the beginning God - Bible Gateway


----------



## techmom

Adam was created in Chapter 2 of Genesis, the male and female beings were created in Chapter 1.


----------



## Dreald

techmom said:


> Evidently there are many self-hating women out here, so sad...


No, what's sad techmom is your inability to read and understand a simple premise and jump to conclusions that were never stated....

What's sad in your ability to pick one or two things that you'd like to respond to that you feel you can successfully defend and ignore the other relevant comments, articles and facts that you cannot...

What's sad is your thinking that because YOU believe it, it must be true...

What's sad is that on the subject of sex, your needs (or lack thereof) are more important than the consideration of your husband's and are unwilling to make any changes to make him more happy...that's not sad, that's pathetic IMO.


----------



## Catherine602

Dreald said:


> *Why am I NOT surprised that you likely haven't read the bible or believe in Christ's teachings....nah, nowhere does it say how a man should love and respect his wife and they are equals in the eyes of God.....
> 
> "And the Lord God said, 'It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him" (Genesis 2:18 NKJV).
> 
> From the beginning of time, God intended for men to enjoy the companionship of women. This verse states that woman is comparable to man, showing that in the marriage relationship, both men and woman are of equal value in God's eyes.
> 
> Did they not teach that in your women's studies? LOL*


So what are you saying? Women who are not june clever will all go to h3ll??

Better start practicing my "yes sirs" to my husband. What a world... Just when I thought I had thrown off my chains. Geez. 


Yes darling anything you say dear.... Let me help you with your back, here give me the soap dear..... I didn't know you didn't like green peas dear, I'll make cream spinach, it will just take me a few minutes.... How was your day darling, I have your highball just the way you like it dear... swallow it alllll.. 

Practicing practicing. Practicing.


----------



## techmom

George529 said:


> This topic is a real good reason why as my daughter grows up I need to shield her as much as I can from the man-hating feminist propaganda.
> 
> She will grow to be an intelligent, capable woman that doesn't think "every man is out to get her" or that "Every man is just waiting to assault her" as the feminists would have you believe.


You're wrong about what feminism teaches, it teaches the following:

1. Women have rights to birth control, and they can determine when they have children and how many.

2. Women are just as intelligent as men, and can exceed in all fields of study.

3. Women can excel in sports.

4. Women can succeed in their careers just like men, and can contribute equally.

Those are some of the points of feminism, why wouldn't you want your daughter to believe these things about herself? Or do you want her to be "subject under her husband" like in the old days? Wouldn't you want her to exceed at everything she wants to do?


----------



## techmom

Dreald said:


> No, what's sad techmom is your inability to read and understand a simple premise and jump to conclusions that were never stated....
> 
> What's sad in your ability to pick one or two things that you'd like to respond to that you feel you can successfully defend and ignore the other relevant comments, articles and facts that you cannot...
> 
> What's sad is your thinking that because YOU believe it, it must be true...
> 
> What's sad is that on the subject of sex, your needs (or lack thereof) are more important than the consideration of your husband's and are unwilling to make any changes to make him more happy...that's not sad, that's pathetic IMO.


You didn't read any of my other posts when I posted the biblical quotes. I guess that you don't believe in that part of the bible....


----------



## techmom

George529 said:


> Are you a theologian? Thought not.


Did you read what was quoted? Thought not....


----------



## Catherine602

Glad we are not talking about the atomic bomb tonight. That was weird. Nuclear fission scares the h3ll out of me. 

The Bible, no. The greatest book ever written.


----------



## Dreald

EleGirl said:


> I was responding with humor to a link you gave to a youtube rant about how feminism is (meaning financial independence and independence to make life choices) ruining everything.
> 
> OK so women cheat at almost the same rate as men do. Men have affairs for some of the same reasons women do… they are not happy at home or they just can and they just want to. How does this make women worse than men? Can you explain that?
> 
> *Well, as has been shown in numerous articles and comments/experiences from posters here on TAM, men disproportionately come out on the short end of the stick in divorce. And like the female writer discussed, men are reconsidering the benefits of marriage when they have so much to lose. *
> 
> To assume that those women are divorcing for no good reason is ridiculous.
> 
> Sure some of them might be divorcing for reasons that seem frivolous like they are not happy. But men divorce for that same reason.
> 
> *Sure, but in both cases the woman more often than not, comes out financially ahead. I've heard the exceptions noted here, but they are exceptions. You've read stories where in some states, alimony is paid FOR LIFE as long as she doesn't remarry. Child support typically takes 40% of a husband's income. Since he's often the breadwinner, more of his 401k, pension, home equity, etc. will go to her. And 90% of the time, she'll get custody of the kids. All of these facts are easily Googled. And all that's required is that she's "unhappy". I mean come on, you've been here long enough to realize that while this can be true for both sexes, men are the ones who are punished for it. *
> 
> Here are some stories that I know go along with the story that women file for divorce most of the time. I have 4 sisters. Here is the short story of the 5 of us in our marriages.
> 
> I’ve been divorced 3 times. Each time I filed because my then husband would not file. Each of them was happy to let things go as they were. So I was put in a position that I HAD to file for divorce for my own sanity and safety.
> 
> My first husband was physically abusive to the point of trying to kill me with a straight razor. That was the last day I was with him. I filed and paid for the divorce. I was the breadwinner as well.
> 
> IN my second marriage I was the breadwinner while he went through medical school & residency. He was emotionally abusive and became physically abusive in the last 4 years or so. He also cheated with many women during our marriage.
> 
> In my 3rd marriage I filed for divorce. We both worked and earned the same amount in the first 2 years of marriage. I was again the bread winner for 10 years because he lost this job and refused to look for another one. So he spent 10 years playing computer games and not helping out at home or helping to raise his two children. I raised his children. I filed for divorce in 3/2012 once his children and my son were out of high school.
> 
> (I give up on marriage by the way. It’s obviously not my thing.)
> 
> Sister #1 filed for divorce… he husband cheated on her for their entire 25 year marriage. Each time she discovered an affair he promised to never do it again. She finally gave up and filed for divorce. She earned as much as he or more during their entire marriage.
> 
> Sister #2- filed for divorce from first husband when their children were under 5. He was abusive and cheated on her. She filed after he pulled a gun on her and threatened to kill her and their 4 year old son.
> 
> Sister #2 filed for divorce from her second marriage…. When she discovered that he’d had 3 long term affairs during their 20 year marriage. He was seriously emotionally abusive of her. She worked as a school teacher during their marriage.
> 
> Sister#3 – Filed for divorce after a 1 yr marriage because her husband beat her and raped her the day she came home from the hospital after a miscarriage. He beat/raped her because she found out that he was screwing a girl who lived in their apartment building while she was in the hospital.
> 
> Sister#3-Filed for divorce because after 25 years of marriage because he was having an affair. After discovering that affair, she found out about other affairs. She is a licensed professional engineer and earned the same income he did.
> 
> Sister#4… the only one of us who has not divorced. Has been married since 1982.
> 
> I could go through my female friends as well. There are some really bad stories there too. But in almost every case they, the wife filed, and it was because of a husband who was emotionally and/or physically abusive. In almost every case their husband was cheating as well.
> 
> I can think of two of my female friends who filed for divorce for reasons that seemed to make no sense.
> 
> And yes I also have girlfriends who have been happy long term marriages.
> 
> 
> *I truly am sorry you and your sisters had to go through such awful marriages. I'm not trying to minimize the abuse aspect, but the fact that No Fault divorces are the norm, it seems wrong to punish one party when the other one simply wants out because the grass is greener on the other side when no emotional or physical abuse is present. *
> 
> There is no one big camp of women called ‘feminist’ or and doctrine called ‘feminism’ that states what you claim here. Sure you can find some small subset of women who might thing what you have stated here. But for most women feminism simply mean women having equal rights and equal pay as men to. That’s it.
> 
> *Sorry, that's equal rights. Feminism is a completely different animal. Plenty of Youtube videos to watch on the difference. *
> 
> Most women do not believe what you claim here.
> 
> Look at the hateful quotes you posted in your OP. I’d be an idiot to believe that most men believe along the lines of those quotes. Most men and most women are good people and do not believe along the lines of the stuff you are posting here.
> 
> *I didn't write those quotes -- that came from a story written by a woman. Please read the original post to better understand. *
> 
> And what women here on this forum are known affectionately as “cake eaters”? When we use the term “cake eaters” on this forum we are talking about men and women who are cheating and want both their affair partner and their spouse.
> 
> If you think that any of us women here are “cake eaters” please give the list of names so that they can defend themselves.


*I was referencing a term I learned here on TAM -- "cake eaters". I never said that there were specific women here but rather there are specific women that their exhusbands who identified as cake-eaters. 

My family had a cake-eater wife. Brother was a successful VP at a large bank, BEAUTIFUL home, private school for the kids, club membership, fancy cars and vacations, three kids and a nanny to take care of them. Married for 14 years. His POS exwife didn't work, played tennis during the week and lunched with her friends...blah, blah, blah. Roght life, right? She tells him that she's fallen in love with a guy in her running group, that she was bored in their marriage and no longer loved him. She got roughly half of everything. Devastated him and financially set him back at least a decade or more. He gets to see his kids every other weekend but yet pays as though he's still their full-time father.

Her? She's living with the POSOM but they're not going to get married. If she did, her alimony would cease. So yeah, there are women who have it all and will still walk away for something that looks better than what they've got. And reap the financial rewards in doing so....THAT'S a cakeeater. And I have two other women in my neighborhood that are pretty much the same way.*


----------



## Dreald

EleGirl said:


> So you choose to hang out with air head women and then you complain that the women you hang out with are air heads? And further you then extrapolate that all women are like these air head women you talk about. Really?????? :scratchhead:


Where do you come up with this stuff? Airhead women? Never said anything about airhead women. It's almost like you're stating that because women spend their money on make-up, nice clothes, diets, etc in order to look good, you consider them airheads?

You're perplexing to follow.


----------



## techmom

George529 said:


> But they don't _just_ teach about those things. They try to make men sound like evil monsters that sole purpose is to "keep women down", that men today should feel guilty for what men in the past did, that any man that has any "authority" over a woman, be it a boss or supervisor is just rearing to descriminate against her.
> 
> I want my daughter to do what she wants, and of course to succeed, but not to go out into the world with a chip on her shoulder that men are all evil creatures just looking to "keep her down".
> 
> Yes, there are bad men, but most men (in the west) happily accept women so long as she herself is smart, hard working and competent and doesn't cry just because "evil men" don't give her what she wants.


You, like many men, only received the "man hating" aspects of feminism, not the positive points. You feel that it is taking something from you, and that is not true.


----------



## Dreald

EleGirl said:


> I'm sorry. I'm a high earner woman. I and my female friends earn 6 figures or more. Most of us are the bread winners in our marriages. And yes we have been treated in the same way as high earner, bead winning males are.
> 
> And yes even when our husbands cheat on us.. they still take us to the cleaners and the courts help them do it.


Why is it that both you and techmom believe that your ONE experience or a couple that you know of, trump articles that prove your position or experience is the EXCEPTION and NOT the norm. 

George is right -- there are numerous articles where the man gets SCREWED financially yet because of your experience, you're still right.

Sorry....doesn't compute


----------



## techmom

Dreald said:


> Why is it that both you and techmom believe that your ONE experience or a couple that you know of, trump articles that prove your position or experience is the EXCEPTION and NOT the norm.
> 
> George is right -- there are numerous articles where the man gets SCREWED financially yet because of your experience, you're still right.
> 
> Sorry....doesn't compute


You are not looking for articles that support any other viewpoint than yours, so naturally you will present those points. Other links and articles were presented but you chose not to address those, especially the bible quote I presented. I thought that you would at least look at that one, but I guess not. 

This will continue to be a back and forth thread...


----------



## Dreald

Catherine602 said:


> So what are you saying? Women who are not june clever will all go to h3ll??
> 
> Better start practicing my "yes sirs" to my husband. What a world... Just when I thought I had thrown off my chains. Geez.
> 
> 
> Yes darling anything you say dear.... Let me help you with your back, here give me the soap dear..... I didn't know you didn't like green peas dear, I'll make cream spinach, it will just take me a few minutes.... How was your day darling, I have your highball just the way you like it dear... swallow it alllll..
> 
> Practicing practicing. Practicing.


I'd have to begin to understand as to where you got ANYTHING remotely related to what you responded with in order to address your post. Nowhere did I post or did the verse state anything remotely related to what you posted.

Did you not see that it says that men and women are equals? LOL. Funny how emotions destroy the ability to think clearly when one's back is up.


----------



## EleGirl

George529 said:


> Can you please tell me how exactly they've "taken you to the cleaners"?


Ok.
I filed for divorce (you know I’m one of those women who files for divorce for no good reason.)
I was the sole income earner through most of our marriage. We had a son. We divorced a year after he joined a medical practice. At that point he was earning twice what I earned. I never saw a penny of his income.

He got a free $140K education and assets worth over $400K all that was accumulated from my income.

I could not get even a dime of what I had spent to put him through medical school.

We got 50/50 because I believe in it very strongly. Children need both parents equally. I did get some child support because of his income now being twice mine. The child support did not even come close to making up for what he got in the divorce settlement.

The divorce cost me $40K because he was trying to take our son away from me completely while I was fighting for 50/50 custody. I had one attorney. He was a team of attornies.


----------



## Dreald

techmom said:


> Understandably you didn't answer my other post above...


Reading is your friend techmom:


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/67884-okay-ladies-what-does-thou-thinketh-womans-perspective-6.html#post1460472


----------



## techmom

Therealbrighteyes said:


> If women were created after men, then how come all human embryos start out female? The male embryo is created out of the female one.


Good point, waiting for Dreald to answer that one. Of course, she is free to use the quote I presented:smthumbup:


----------



## techmom

Dreald said:


> Reading is your friend techmom:
> 
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/67884-okay-ladies-what-does-thou-thinketh-womans-perspective-6.html#post1460472


It is your friend too :smthumbup:


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

techmom said:


> Good point, waiting for Dreald to answer that one. Of course, she is free to use the quote I presented:smthumbup:


Dreald is a dude. He often talks about his ex-wife.


----------



## EleGirl

Dreald said:


> Why is it that both you and techmom believe that your ONE experience or a couple that you know of, trump articles that prove your position or experience is the EXCEPTION and NOT the norm.
> 
> George is right -- there are numerous articles where the man gets SCREWED financially yet because of your experience, you're still right.
> 
> Sorry....doesn't compute


His articles are talking about one kind of case. The articles does not address my point, that the laws are indeed equal, the gender of who earns more and who earns less does not matter. The law is applied equally to high earning men and high earning women who are the primary bead winners. His articles does not refute that. 

If a man does not want to pay alimony to a stay-at-home-mom (SAHM) then I suggest that he marry a woman whose income is close to his and that he not agree that she be a SAHM. Do not create a situation in which a woman is financially dependent on you and then complain when she is financially dependent on you.

And for crying out loud, do not come here and blast and insult all women accusing us of being gold digging twits. It would be just as stupid if I came here and accused all men of being gold digging cheaters because I was foolish enough to marry gold digging cheaters. I’m not that stupid. I know that most men are not like my ex’s. And most women are not like yours. 

How hard is that to understand that? :scratchhead:


----------



## norajane

George529 said:


> Also, women DO care a lot more about their potential partner having status/money. Even if a guy is real great it's negative points taken off if he say just has a HS degree and is working at mcdonalds regardless if the woman is even a "gold digger" *yet as far as a man is concerned, so long as she's pretty and fun she could be a high school drop out and make very little.*


Then maybe that man shouldn't be so surprised and dismayed that he'll need to pay alimony in the event of a divorce.


----------



## Dreald

techmom said:


> You are not looking for articles that support any other viewpoint than yours, so naturally you will present those points. Other links and articles were presented but you chose not to address those, especially the bible quote I presented. I thought that you would at least look at that one, but I guess not.
> 
> This will continue to be a back and forth thread...


The only thing you quoted was a scripture. You've yet to provide any links to support your opinions and you take one or two items to comment on and then conveniently ignore the rest. 

And I did respond to your bible quote -- I even had to provide you with a link to show you the post....LOL! I'm done responding to you. My time is more valuable than 'debating' with you.


----------



## techmom

techmom said:


> Maybe not, but they taught me this:
> 
> Genesis-
> 26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
> 
> 27 *So God created mankind in his own image,
> in the image of God he created them;
> male and female he created them.*
> 28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”
> 
> So, male and female were created AT THE SAME TIME according to this quote. We were made EQUALLY by the Creator, by whatever name you call him. You can look this up if you want. Feminism is just correcting all of the wrongs made against women in history.
> 
> You need to read the books yourself instead of taking the pastor's word for it, lol.


I'm still waiting for Dreald to answer this biblical quote directly, the stuff you posted had NOTHING to do with this.


----------



## staarz21

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Dreald is a dude. He often talks about his ex-wife.


Yep


----------



## techmom

Thanks for correcting that for us ladies, lol.:lol:

He must speak highly of his ex wife....not!


----------



## norajane

George529 said:


> As far as I'm concerned, alimony shouldn't even exist, not trying to make it more "fair" but just not exist at all.
> 
> If you got divorced and someone told you to pay your ex x amount of money for month you'd be very upset.


If I chose to marry someone who had no money, no education, and no skills, and then expected him to stay home to raise our children and run our household, yes, I would expect I'd have to pay alimony in a divorce since I make lots of money.

That's why I didn't marry someone with no education and no skills just because he was pretty.


----------



## EleGirl

Here is some more data for you guys who think that women are just looking for a free ride and taking 'your' money.

70%-80% of American wives work outside the home.
40% of American wives are the breadwinners for their families (Bureau of Labor Statistics)

34% of American wives are the bread winners in families in the top 20% earning level. (Center for American Progress)

70% of American wives are the bread winners in families in the lowest 20% earning level. (Center for American Progress)

50% of American wives are the breadwinners in middle-income families. (Center for American Progress)


----------



## Caribbean Man

Catherine602 said:


> Glad we are not talking about the atomic bomb tonight. That was weird. Nuclear fission scares the h3ll out of me.
> 
> The Bible, no. The greatest book ever written.


Catherine,
I thought you were fascinated by the idea of Nuclear Fission.
No need to be scared.A nuclear chain reaction can be controlled by the use of moderators such as light water or graphite rods.

Pretty much like marriage.
Put two " fissile " partners together with temperaments and issues that exceeds the " critical mass " and the end result would always be a continuous chain reaction until the marriage explodes . Then everything becomes contaminated.

_Even_ _though they believe in the bible_.......

But put two partners with complimentary attributes together ,they 
" moderate " each other's chan reactions even when it exceeds the " critical mass ." The end result is positive energy , harnessed and ready to be used to fulfill whatever purpose they have in life.

Oh, and its counted in _half_ _lives_.....


----------



## techmom

What is interesting about this thread is that some men expect the women to stay home and take care of the home and children while he works. And they do it for free, mind you. Don't have to spend child care costs or hire a housekeeper. But when it comes time for divorce they want a clean break.

Yet they benefit in their careers from having a SAHM handle the household stuff. What about the single dads who has to work and come home and take care of the kids? The men don't realize the benefit of having a wife willing to stay home, she loses her earning potential the longer she stays home. This is why the courts have to look out for her interest as well, or else society pays for it through the welfare system.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Caribbean Man said:


> Catherine,
> I thought you were fascinated by the idea of Nuclear Fission.
> No need to be scared.A nuclear chain reaction can be controlled by the use of moderators such as light water or graphite rods.
> 
> Pretty much like marriage.
> Put two " fissile " partners together with temperaments and issues that exceeds the " critical mass " and the end result would always be a continuous chain reaction until the marriage explodes . Then everything becomes contaminated.
> 
> But put two partners with complimentary attributes together ,they
> " moderate " each other's chan reactions even when it exceeds the " critical mass ." The end result is positive energy , harnessed and ready to be used to fulfill whatever purpose they have in life.
> 
> Oh, and its counted in _half_ _lives_.....


:smnotworthy: Brilliant, just brilliant.


----------



## EleGirl

George529 said:


> So? According to "the law" it is against the law for women to get paid less for equal work yet feminists can't stop complaining about how they are "discriminated against".


First you need to find “the feminists”. I don’t know who they are. Is there a organization called “the feminists”? Who is saying this. Blaming “the feminists” is just like blaming “them”. Who the heck is “them”?

There are still places that do not pay women equally for the exact same work. Just because there is a law does not mean that all companies follow it. There is a law against murder, yet some people still murder people.
As a man who has a daughter, you really should be concerned about her ability to be paid the same as a male for the same job. You should also be concerned about her ability to be promoted into higher paid positions. She has a 50% chance right now of being the breadwinner for her family. As she gets older that might go up.


George529 said:


> As far as I'm concerned, alimony shouldn't even exist, not trying to make it more "fair" but just not exist at all.


So you think that when a man and woman decide that she will be a SAHM, if when she’s 50 years old and too old to start a new career, he can divorce her and she gets nothing for all the years that she raised their children? And her only choice is to work minimum wage jobs if she can even find anyone who will hire a 50 yr old woman with no work experience? Really? That’s what you believe? That’s what you want for your daughter?



George529 said:


> If you got divorced and someone told you to pay your ex x amount of money for month you'd be very upset.


IF that gets you upset then do not have your wife be a SAHM. Make sure she earns a good living, works through your marriage. That way you would have no financial resonsiblitiy.


----------



## EleGirl

techmom said:


> What is interesting about this thread is that some men expect the women to stay home and take care of the home and children while he works. And they do it for free, mind you. Don't have to spend child care costs or hire a housekeeper. But when it comes time for divorce they want a clean break.
> 
> Yet they benefit in their careers from having a SAHM handle the household stuff. What about the single dads who has to work and come home and take care of the kids? The men don't realize the benefit of having a wife willing to stay home, she loses her earning potential the longer she stays home. This is why the courts have to look out for her interest as well, or else society pays for it through the welfare system.


People who have this mind set are mean and selfish.

I think that the way to cure it is that SAHM/D needs to be paid for their work and have retirement funds paid into. Then their efforts will be recognized for what they are... efforts worth a lot.


----------



## Catherine602

Dreald said:


> I'd have to begin to understand as to where you got ANYTHING remotely related to what you responded with in order to address your post. Nowhere did I post or did the verse state anything remotely related to what you posted.
> 
> Did you not see that it says that men and women are equals? LOL. Funny how emotions destroy the ability to think clearly when one's back is up.


Yes yes i see that now - but -- i am so vexed with you Dreald. I made a fool of myself with my husband tonight.

I had a fit of the vapors after reading your post. I am now lying on the settee with a cool lavender-scented cloth over my brow. :/


----------



## EleGirl

George529 said:


> But how many women that are getting divorced ARE SAHMS?
> 
> According to this: Women by the Numbers — Infoplease.com
> 
> 5 million, which is a lot. But certainly the minority of women that are getting divorced. Yet they get alimony anyway.


70%-80% of married work work outside the home. So SAHM's are a low percentage these days.


----------



## EleGirl

FrenchFry said:


> So, this thread really was created to antagonize women into...what exactly? What was the outcome supposed to be here?


It's so that the injured men and teach us women who only use them how we need to learn to be different to please them.


:lol:


----------



## *LittleDeer*

George529 said:


> Also, women DO care a lot more about their potential partner having status/money. Even if a guy is real great it's negative points taken off if he say just has a HS degree and is working at mcdonalds regardless if the woman is even a "gold digger" yet as far as a man is concerned, so long as she's pretty and fun she could be a high school drop out and make very little.


NO 
Just because you would like to peg all men as shallow (and I don't believe they are) doesn't mean all women are too.


George529 said:


> Or they are intelligent, independent thinkers that realize that men are not the cause of, nor the solution to ALL of women's problems. Meaning, they don't buy into feminist propaganda.


You mean Propaganda= *prop·a·gan·da [prop-uh-gan-duh] Show IPA
noun
1.
information, ideas, or rumors deliberately spread widely to help or harm a person, group, movement, institution, nation, etc.
2.
the deliberate spreading of such information, rumors, etc.*

Who has been spreading this? 

I do notice that lots of angry people, who seem very bitter and angry at the world, and who want to blame women and feminism for their own misery tend to spread propaganda about feminists, feminism and what it means to *MOST* women.

Are you saying that unless I agree with you, I am not intelligent nor free thinking?

In fact the most intelligent women on this site, whos posts I often delight in reading, because of their insight and laydee smartz, identify as feminists or at the very least recognize the need for feminism. Just saying.


----------



## Catherine602

Caribbean Man said:


> Catherine,
> I thought you were fascinated by the idea of Nuclear Fission.
> No need to be scared.A nuclear chain reaction can be controlled by the use of moderators such as light water or graphite rods.
> 
> Pretty much like marriage.
> Put two " fissile " partners together with temperaments and issues that exceeds the " critical mass " and the end result would always be a continuous chain reaction until the marriage explodes . Then everything becomes contaminated.
> 
> _Even_ _though they believe in the bible_.......
> 
> But put two partners with complimentary attributes together ,they
> " moderate " each other's chan reactions even when it exceeds the " critical mass ." The end result is positive energy , harnessed and ready to be used to fulfill whatever purpose they have in life.
> 
> Oh, and its counted in _half_ _lives_.....


:lol::lol::lol::rofl::rofl::rofl:

CM you gave me such a start; don't sneak up on me like that. 

I really enjoyed that discussion. Thank for putting up with my shenanigans. Can't wait till your next thread.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

George529 said:


> So? According to "the law" it is against the law for women to get paid less for equal work yet feminists can't stop complaining about how they are "discriminated against".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As far as I'm concerned, alimony shouldn't even exist, not trying to make it more "fair" but just not exist at all.
> 
> 
> 
> Methinks you don't quite get that no ones enforcing the law, and lots of individuals keep bending it, and women are suffering because of that. But OK.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you got divorced and someone told you to pay your ex x amount of money for month you'd be very upset
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Really?
> 
> So I meet my husband am on my way to finishing my degree and working in a field that pays well and I can advance in and so on.
> 
> Then we plan to have a baby, we both want one of us to stay home with the baby.
> 
> He wants it to be me, he doesn't have the same desire to stay home, and he makes more, so it makes sense.
> 
> I give up my career to do something we both value. He values me staying home just as much as him going to work.
> 
> We then split up, but I have to retrain and restart my career, I am years behind, because I sacraficed my career to give us the home life WE BOTH wanted.
> 
> I should be penalised financially while he reaps the rewards.
> 
> Doesn't sound like an incentive for old fashioned relationships like a lot of men are claiming they want.
> 
> Start valuing women and traditional women's roles, instead sh!tting all over them whenever it suits you, and you may see more women willing to be more "feminine".
Click to expand...


----------



## EleGirl

George529 said:


> This topic is a real good reason why as my daughter grows up I need to shield her as much as I can from the man-hating feminist propaganda.
> 
> She will grow to be an intelligent, capable woman that doesn't think "every man is out to get her" or that "Every man is just waiting to assault her" as the feminists would have you believe.


Yet I'm getting that you think that every women is out to get men


----------



## staarz21

Go put this on a Feminist board where they will be likely to answer your questions appropriately.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

George529 said:


> *LittleDeer* said:
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't necessarily mean they are shallow, just that it's generally not as important to men, regardless of whether they are shallow or not.
> 
> 
> Ever taken misandry 101....err a women's study course in college?
> 
> 
> 
> How did you know my name was Miss Andry?
> 
> 
> More propaganda. Yes if you think women should be just as valued as men, in life and law you must hate men. Pfft.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or we just talk about hard truths you don't want to hear or take responsibility for.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> :lol:
> Yes that must be it, and look I just saw a shiny unicorn frolicking in the rainbow cotton candy, under the gold trees in my back yard.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, and even if we replaced every member of congress with women feminists would still complain about how we "don't live in a post-feminist society". They are never happy
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> .
> Everything you say is true. There comes no distorted reasoning, overreacting and misinformation from your end whatso ever.
> 
> I do apologise for thinking as women, we may know ourselves, our own minds, and be intelligent enough to gather information, process it and come to conclusions even.
> 
> I simply must stop all this vile man hating (AKA -having an opinion different your own) and go back to cleaning the toilet at once.
Click to expand...


----------



## EleGirl

George529 said:


> As I posted before, in todays world it is very unlikely a woman will be a SAHM. Also, even if she's 50 it doesn't stop her from getting degrees and working.


Wow, you would expect for a woman to go to college at 50 then start a career at 54? Really? Are you aware that the older a person is the harder it is to find a job?


George529 said:


> As far as my daughter, I will set the best example I can so she won't end up with some dishonest immoral person. That she won't, like so many other women, go for the "bad boy" which always invariably leads to heartbreak.


A lot of men who seem to be ‘good’ men turn out to be very bad husbands. 




George529 said:


> If I got a wife I'd make sure to get a good one (ie conservative christian).


Oh yea, being a conservative Christian is going to protect you all right. Did you know that the community with the highest divorce rate are protestants, especially evangelicals? Especially those living in the Bible Belt?


----------



## EleGirl

*LittleDeer* said:


> Everything you say is true. There comes no distorted reasoning, overreacting and misinformation from your end whatso ever.
> 
> I do apologise for thinking as women, we may know ourselves, our own minds, and be intelligent enough to gather information, process it and come to conclusions even.
> 
> I simply must stop all this vile man hating (AKA -having an opinion different your own) and go back to cleaning the toilet at once.


Are you daft woman??? We need men to tell us what we think and how we must behave. :rofl:


----------



## EleGirl

George529 said:


> Feminists in general.


On this thread “feminist” = “bogeyman” 

:rofl:


----------



## techmom

EleGirl said:


> On this thread “feminist” = “bogeyman”
> 
> :rofl:


It also means "them mean womenz who be trollin' this thread":lol:


----------



## EleGirl

George529 said:


> It can be a bit harder, but not impossible. But since it's a very unlikely scenario it's kind of moot.


A bit harder? Really "at bit"? Look at the 50 year old poeple you know, how many of them could start from scratch with no help and no skills at that age. GEt real.

It’s hardly an unlikely scenario? Many women in their 50’s end up divorced when their husbands take off with a younger woman. But according to you, after being a SAHM/W for 25 or more years she should be thrown on the street by him with no way to support herself.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

George529 said:


> But they don't just stop there, nor are they complaining about the unfair treatment men get in other areas.


They don't? tell me what do "they" (and by they, you mean the majority of women who want to be equally valued, so many of the women on TAM) - what do they want?
Why don't you ask the women on TAM who are representative of a good portion of the female population, what equity in the law and life means to them? Instead of talking for "Them" some kind of army of made up extremists, who don't have anything to do with the majority of women.

It's like a safety net for some people, to avoid looking at the real issues, they will take the extreme views and non issues to override all sense, and dismiss you. 

Please STOP telling us women what we want, and what issues are important to us and why. Please stop reading anti women websites and deciding that women hate men and want to rule the world and be rid of any and all masculinity. It's just not so!



> Deflection, great way to debate.


.Why thank you, I took a leaf out your book, whenever someone starts talking femenazi I know they know not what they write. 



> Just telling it like it is


.
Your world view is slightly skewed and your lense seems particularly narrow.



> You only want to believe what you want to believe, regardless of the facts. Being a "victim" is a lot easier than taking responsibility.



Deflection again.[/QUOTE]

You are welcome. I aim to please.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

George529 said:


> I'm out of this thread. No amount of facts (even substantiated) will change any of your minds.
> 
> At least I'll be able to help raise a daughter that won't conform to feminist man-hating ideologies disguised as "women's rights".


Oh yes those "facts" are very helpful.

Let's hope as I do with my own daughter, that she's never raped or sexually assaulted, because she will probably never see her attacker bought to justice.

That she works in one of the very few female dominated industries, but even then if there is a man around she will still likely end up his subordinate. 

That she doesn't mind earning less money for doing exactly the same job.

That she doesn't mind probably working out of the home and still doing most of the child care and housework.

That if she divorces she will, despite child support and alimony (if she gets it), still have a high chance of living in poverty.

I could go on and on, but i have some man hatin to do...


----------



## techmom

George529 said:


> I'm out of this thread. No amount of facts (even substantiated) will change any of your minds.
> 
> At least I'll be able to help raise a daughter that won't conform to feminist man-hating ideologies disguised as "women's rights".


See what yall man-hating womenz did... you chased a good upstanding Christian man off of this thread when he was making good points about you womenz and yall hatin' on menz.

Shame on yall, stop hatin' you feminazis!!! /sarcasm


----------



## EleGirl

George529 said:


> But most of these 50 something women getting divorced have not been SAHMs but working women.


Women who are 50 are more likely to be SAHMs then the younger generations were. We were raised to be SAHMs.

You do not want to address the fact that there is a % of women at 50 and above who were SAHMs. And you believe that they should just be thrown on the street like yesterday's trash. Apparently you believe that a woman who spent her life taking care of her children and her husband has no value, brought nothing to the marriage and the family.

You say that you want your wife to be a SAHM but you obviously do not value what she does. Because if you did value what your wife does as a SAHM you would understand how wrong it would be to throw an older woman to the curb after she spent her life dedicated to her husband and children.


George529 said:


> I don't get why you keep bringing it up since the good majority are women with degrees that do/have worked.


What are you talking about? Further. If a woman gets a degree and then is a SAHM for 25 years, her degree is meaningless. No one is going to hire someone based on a degree that old when the person has not had a career all those years.


----------



## EleGirl

George529 said:


> I'm out of this thread. No amount of facts (even substantiated) will change any of your minds.
> 
> At least I'll be able to help raise a daughter that won't conform to feminist man-hating ideologies disguised as "women's rights".


Not one woman here hates men or is man-hating. But I have read a lot of woman-hating stuff posted here tonight.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Therealbrighteyes said:


> :smnotworthy: Brilliant, just brilliant.



Thanks!

I was trying to get Catherine's attention, but she's avoiding me....:scratchhead:
A left brained dominant , analytical woman ,
[ my type of woman  ]. She thinks i don't like Einstein or dominant women , but Catherine,
Nothing could be further from the truth dear!
We are both on the same side.


----------



## NewM

George529 said:


> I'm out of this thread. No amount of facts (even substantiated) will change any of your minds.
> 
> At least I'll be able to help raise a daughter that won't conform to feminist man-hating ideologies disguised as "women's rights".


Judging from few of your posts you seem like male version of feminists.

If a man is stay at home dad and wife is breadwinner,if they divorce,he will get all female benefits you are talking about.If you don't want to be cleaned out marry someone that has same earnings as you.


----------



## Catherine602

Caribbean Man said:


> Thanks!
> 
> I was trying to get Catherine's attention, but she's avoiding me....:scratchhead:
> A left brained dominant , analytical woman ,
> [ my type of woman  ]. She thinks i don't like Einstein or dominant women , but Catherine,
> Nothing could be further from the truth dear!
> We are both on the same side.


CM I responded to your post! Didn't you see it? Post 137 on this thread. 

I'm only dominant in virtual space when writing. In real life, my timing is not rapid-fire enough to pose a real threat in a debate. 

Besides that, I am a people pleasing wimp who backs down from an argument because I can see both sides of the issue.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Catherine602 said:


> CM I responded to your post! Didn't you see it? Post 137 on this thread.
> 
> I'm only dominant in virtual space when writing. In real life, my timing is not rapid-fire enough to pose a real threat in a debate.
> 
> Besides that, I am a people pleasing wimp who backs down from an argument because I can see both sides of the issue.


My bad,
Really sorry about that!
I didn't go through the last few pages.
Hope you forgive me, but I really like seeing your points of views in these debates, and I think you should post more often.
What matters is not that we agree on everything , but speaking of our convictions boldly and bravely.
Somewhere along the ling there would be a consensus....

Thanks for responding, and do have a great day!

BTW,
I don't think that you are a " people pleasing wimp.." either.In fact, I was very impressed with your knowledge of nuclear physics, and the history of Einstein & WWII, on that thread,last Friday night.
* raises eyebrows *


----------



## Dreald

techmom said:


> Thanks for correcting that for us ladies, lol.:lol:
> 
> He must speak highly of his ex wife....not!


I never said I was a woman. And no, I don't think highly of my exwife. She was a self-entitled, critical, non-compromising feminist princess who thought that after we got married, she could stop compromising and sharing, that I "owed" her for being married to her, that it was okay to be critical of others while rarely ever accepting responsibility for her own actions, and refused to discuss things further after she made her point and I had a legitimate valid reason as to mine. 

I purchased a 2.25ct center diamond ring that cost $17k. Less than 4 months after being married, she said that we could upgrade that at our 5 year anniversary to a 3-3.5 ct center. When I called her on how disrespectful and hurtful for her to say that, she said "Oh, I was only JOKING". But she also demanded 1 ct diamond earrings for our 1 year anniversary. Demanded nice vacations and upgraded her wardrobe on my dime. Demanded that I sell my home in order for us to 'move forward' but did VERY little in assisting but was right there to ensure the check was put into OUR checking account. It cost me over $60k for 14 months. But it was worth every penny to see her in my rearview mirror. 

From the brief time on here, you and her seem quite a bit alike.


----------



## Dreald

George529 said:


> I'm out of this thread. No amount of facts (even substantiated) will change any of your minds.
> 
> At least I'll be able to help raise a daughter that won't conform to feminist man-hating ideologies disguised as "women's rights".


Well said. Look how quickly it turned from trying to gain insight as to two other women's perspectives on feminism has hurt marriage into a defensive, non-linear thinking, personal attack type of discussion. 

It goes along with my belief that a vast majority of women are raised to think of themselves as 'victims', regardless of what role they played or how they themselves acted. 

I'm done here as well. It was enlightening, but not in the way that I had hoped. It pretty much confirms what I've read and what I've experienced. Sad state we live in.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Dreald said:


> I never said I was a woman. And no, I don't think highly of my exwife. She was a self-entitled, critical, non-compromising feminist princess who thought that after we got married, she could stop compromising and sharing, that I "owed" her for being married to her, that it was okay to be critical of others while rarely ever accepting responsibility for her own actions, and refused to discuss things further after she made her point and I had a legitimate valid reason as to mine.
> 
> I purchased a 2.25ct center diamond ring that cost $17k. Less than 4 months after being married, she said that we could upgrade that at our 5 year anniversary to a 3-3.5 ct center. When I called her on how disrespectful and hurtful for her to say that, she said "Oh, I was only JOKING". But she also demanded 1 ct diamond earrings for our 1 year anniversary. Demanded nice vacations and upgraded her wardrobe on my dime. Demanded that I sell my home in order for us to 'move forward' but did VERY little in assisting but was right there to ensure the check was put into OUR checking account. It cost me over $60k for 14 months. But it was worth every penny to see her in my rearview mirror.
> 
> From the brief time on here, you and her seem quite a bit alike.


I'm sorry for what you have experienced. Nobody should have to go through that. I would caution you however that that isn't a "feminist", that's just a flat out golddigger and quite the opposite of a feminist. As one, I would never in a million years expect a man to contribute more than I do. If I expect him to bring things to the table, I better match it and I always have in my near 20 years of marriage. 

I understand that you are hurt and angry. That's understandable. There are lot's of great women out there that pull their own weight. Hopefully you won't write off feminists because of the experience with a pretender.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Dreald said:


> I never said I was a woman. And no, I don't think highly of my exwife. She was a self-entitled, critical, non-compromising feminist princess who thought that after we got married, she could stop compromising and sharing, that I "owed" her for being married to her, that it was okay to be critical of others while rarely ever accepting responsibility for her own actions, and refused to discuss things further after she made her point and I had a legitimate valid reason as to mine.
> 
> *I purchased a 2.25ct center diamond ring that cost $17k. Less than 4 months after being married, she said that we could upgrade that at our 5 year anniversary to a 3-3.5 ct center.* When I called her on how disrespectful and hurtful for her to say that, she said "Oh, I was only JOKING". * But she also demanded 1 ct diamond earrings for our 1 year anniversary. Demanded nice vacations and upgraded her wardrobe on my dime. Demanded that I sell my home in order for us to 'move forward' but did VERY little in assisting but was right there to ensure the check was put into OUR checking account. * It cost me over $60k for 14 months. But it was worth every penny to see her in my rearview mirror.
> 
> From the brief time on here, you and her seem quite a bit alike.


wow!
My brother,
You are a victim.
Looks like your ex wife saw you as a her walking bank account.
Was she employed?


----------



## EleGirl

Dreald said:


> I never said I was a woman. And no, I don't think highly of my exwife. She was a self-entitled, critical, non-compromising feminist princess who thought that after we got married, she could stop compromising and sharing, that I "owed" her for being married to her, that it was okay to be critical of others while rarely ever accepting responsibility for her own actions, and refused to discuss things further after she made her point and I had a legitimate valid reason as to mine.
> 
> I purchased a 2.25ct center diamond ring that cost $17k. Less than 4 months after being married, she said that we could upgrade that at our 5 year anniversary to a 3-3.5 ct center. When I called her on how disrespectful and hurtful for her to say that, she said "Oh, I was only JOKING". But she also demanded 1 ct diamond earrings for our 1 year anniversary. Demanded nice vacations and upgraded her wardrobe on my dime. Demanded that I sell my home in order for us to 'move forward' but did VERY little in assisting but was right there to ensure the check was put into OUR checking account. It cost me over $60k for 14 months. But it was worth every penny to see her in my rearview mirror.
> 
> From the brief time on here, you and her seem quite a bit alike.


You married a spoiled brat and then expected her to not be a spoiled brat? On top of that, you now have so much anger at all women because of this spoiled brat. No other woman has anything to do with your wife's misbehavior. She is solely responsible.

Further, her behavior is hardly that of a feminist. That’s not how a woman who believes in equal rights behaves.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Totally off topic but OP brought up diamonds. Am I the only one who really doesn't like them? Why would I want to wear a stone on my finger to "symbolize" love that has so much blood on it? 
Also, when did the bigger the better = the man must love you more? It boggles my mind. I think that mindset is hideous.


----------



## EleGirl

Dreald said:


> Well said. Look how quickly it turned from trying to gain insight as to two other women's perspectives on feminism has hurt marriage into a defensive, non-linear thinking, personal attack type of discussion.
> 
> It goes along with my belief that a vast majority of women are raised to think of themselves as 'victims', regardless of what role they played or how they themselves acted.
> 
> I'm done here as well. It was enlightening, but not in the way that I had hoped. It pretty much confirms what I've read and what I've experienced. Sad state we live in.


You did not make this thread to "gain insight". Your posts on this thread have been to tell all of us women what we do wrong... even if we don't do what you are accusing all women of doing.

The poster who said that this tripe is the male equivalence of radical feminism, he was right.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Totally off topic but OP brought up diamonds. Am I the only one who really doesn't like them? Why would I want to wear a stone on my finger to "symbolize" love that has so much blood on it?
> Also, when did the bigger the better = the man must love you more? It boggles my mind. I think that mindset is hideous.


The Price of diamonds is one of the biggest modern con jobs.
Diamonds are more common than other gemstones.

The hardness factor of diamonds make them valuable not as a jewellery piece , but in other engineering applications such as the cutting bit for a rotary drilling rig in oil & gas explorations.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

EleGirl said:


> You did not make this thread to "gain insight". Your posts on this thread have been to tell all of us women what we do wrong... even if we don't do what you are accusing all women of doing.
> 
> The poster who said that this tripe is the male equivalence of radical feminism, he was right.


I agree. We all have experiences with others that have enraged us and hurt us. Those that are mature recognize that that was only one person and not a representation of an entire gender, race or sexual orientation.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Caribbean Man said:


> The Price of diamonds are one of the biggest modern con jobs.
> Diamonds are more common than other gemstones.
> 
> The hardness factor of diamonds make them valuable not as a jewellery piece , but in other engineering applications such as the cutting bit for a rotary drilling rig in oil & gas explorations.


I wasn't talking utilitarian use, I was referring to women who want one to show off. You are correct about the "rarity" of diamonds. It is the most tightly controlled industry in the world and if all the diamonds were released on the market, 1 carat would be worth $10. The Economist did an amazing article about it and naturally DeBeers tried to kill it.


----------



## EleGirl

Caribbean Man said:


> The Price of diamonds is one of the biggest modern con jobs.
> Diamonds are more common than other gemstones.
> 
> The hardness factor of diamonds make them valuable not as a jewellery piece , but in other engineering applications such as the cutting bit for a rotary drilling rig in oil & gas explorations.


This is why I don't have much of anything with diamonds. Their price is kept artifically high by those in the industry hording huge quantities and other tactics.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Totally off topic but OP brought up diamonds. Am I the only one who really doesn't like them? Why would I want to wear a stone on my finger to "symbolize" love that has so much blood on it?
> Also, when did the bigger the better = the man must love you more? It boggles my mind. I think that mindset is hideous.


I think diamonds are beautiful if I'm not considering what goes on in order to get them.I wear a black diamond ring.
I'll never understand the size thing either.That one has always been a mystery to me.


----------



## Caribbean Man

EleGirl said:


> This is why I don't have much of anything with diamonds. Their price is kept artifically high by those in the industry hording huge quantities and other tactics.


De Beers and the Rothschild banking family have a lot in common,
Just sayin...

_A lot of these things which we fight over and kill for are just not real._

Ok, no more threadjack.


----------



## EleGirl

ScarletBegonias said:


> I think diamonds are beautiful if I'm not considering what goes on in order to get them.I wear a black diamond ring.
> I'll never understand the size thing either.That one has always been a mystery to me.


In the 'old days' women (European women) could not own property or keep large sums of money in their names. When they married their assets transferred to their husband. 

But women could own personal items...such a jewelry. So jewelry was given to women as their asset. Families would convert their assets in jewelry to pass it on to daughters so protect it from the husband. A woman of stature would require a very expensive piece of jewelry as a bride gift from her husband to be. He was getting her assets so she sure as hell expected him to give her something of value that she could sell if she every needed to support herself and her children.

Today things are very different. People do not recall why the gift of an expensive peice of jewelry was used in the past. They just think it's custom and some expect it.

It's silly really because something like an expensive, 2ct wedding ring will not sell for half the retail price once the buyer walks out of the jewelry store with it. It's not longer a gift of wealth to a woman as her bride gift.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

EleGirl said:


> In the 'old days' women (European women) could not own property or keep large sums of money in their names. When they married their assets transferred to their husband.
> 
> But women could own personal items...such a jewelry. So jewelry was given to women as their asset. Families would convert their assets in jewelry to pass it on to daughters so protect it from the husband. A woman of stature would require a very expensive piece of jewelry as a bride gift from her husband to be. He was getting her assets so she sure as hell expected him to give her something of value that she could sell if she every needed to support herself and her children.
> 
> Today things are very different. People do not recall why the gift of an expensive peice of jewelry was used in the past. They just think it's custom and some expect it.
> 
> It's silly really because something like an expensive, 2ct wedding ring will not sell for half the retail price once the buyer walks out of the jewelry store with it. It's not longer a gift of wealth to a woman as her bride gift.


Fascinating! They say you learn something new every day. Thank you for that.


----------



## Caribbean Man

EleGirl said:


> In the 'old days' women (European women) could not own property or keep large sums of money in their names. When they married their assets transferred to their husband.
> 
> But women could own personal items...such a jewelry. So jewelry was given to women as their asset. Families would convert their assets in jewelry to pass it on to daughters so protect it from the husband. A woman of stature would require a very expensive piece of jewelry as a bride gift from her husband to be. He was getting her assets so she sure as hell expected him to give her something of value that she could sell if she every needed to support herself and her children.
> 
> Today things are very different. People do not recall why the gift of an expensive peice of jewelry was used in the past. They just think it's custom and some expect it.
> 
> It's silly really because something like an expensive, 2ct wedding ring will not sell for half the retail price once the buyer walks out of the jewelry store with it. It's not longer a gift of wealth to a woman as her bride gift.


In other , older cultures the ring was also a symbol of status.
However in modern times , some cultures,[ like wealthy Hindus in our country ] give property instead.Because Hindu women generally own lots of jewellery pieces, by the time they are old enough to marry.
Historically she could't own land, so her husband gave her jewellery, which was looked upon as family heirloom.
Its part of their cultural tradition for mothers to pass these pieces down to their daughters.
So the highlight of the ceremony is not the exchange of rings, but what is in the envelope placed at the bride's feet, by the man and his family.
_Which is usually either a huge sum of money or the deed to a real estate._


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

This thread has turned in to something positive and educational from the ugliness to which its intent was. Yippie! :smthumbup:


----------



## EleGirl

Caribbean Man said:


> In other , older cultures the ring was also a symbol of status.
> However in modern times , some cultures,[ like wealthy Hindus in our country ] give property instead.Because Hindu women generally own lots of jewellery pieces, by the time they are old enough to marry.
> Historically she could't own land, so her husband gave her jewellery, which was looked upon as family heirloom.
> Its part of their cultural tradition for mothers to pass these pieces down to their daughters.
> So the highlight of the ceremony is not the exchange of rings, but what is in the envelope placed at the bride's feet, by the man and his family.
> _Which is usually either a huge sum of money or the deed to a real estate._


Different clutures do different things. That is interesting.

I know that under Islam the wife is given a bride gift that is supposed to be enough to support herself and her children. It's usually given as money. Her husband has no claim to the money from the bride gift or any money she gets from any source. But he's responsible for supporting her.

However, today, more moderate Muslims just give a diamond ring as the bride gift.


----------



## in my tree

George529 said:


> Ever taken misandry 101....err a women's study course in college?


I don't know why I'm responding because evidently you are now gone, George. However I will say that my 23 y.o. daughter is taking women's studies this semester and she said it is really opening her eyes. She had no idea of the some of the history behind women and women's rights in this country. She also said that there are young men in this class *gasp*!! I hope they don't become wimpy, beta, doormats! Btw - my daughter has short hair, piercings, tattoos and is a very independent minded woman. She's also girly in her dress, loves to cook, cleans, and spoils her bf. What a weirdo!

If you do return, I will say that I think it is difficult for you to accept or understand what the women here are saying because you are not in their shoes. You think that sexism (or sorry, misogyny) is gone and now misandry has taken its place. I'd say that you can't/won't understand because 1) those shoes don't fit you and 2) you are adamant in your position. Yes, there are also SOME women who are also like that but I have not seen any on this website. Most of them empathize/sympathize when they hear of your struggles with women who go after your money, or don't/won't let you guys see your kids after divorce, etc. 

I for one am happy that there are young men out there willing to listen to what women have gone through and women's perceptions of what is still going on. I think right now there are lots of women who are showing empathy towards men. Not all! We know that. But it is a step in the right direction.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

in my tree said:


> I don't know why I'm responding because evidently you are now gone, George. However I will say that my 23 y.o. daughter is taking women's studies this semester and she said it is really opening her eyes. She had no idea of the some of the history behind women and women's rights in this country. She also said that there are young men in this class *gasp*!! I hope they don't become wimpy, beta, doormats! Btw - my daughter has short hair, piercings, tattoos and is a very independent minded woman. She's also girly in her dress, loves to cook, cleans, and spoils her bf. What a weirdo!
> 
> If you do return, I will say that I think it is difficult for you to accept or understand what the women here are saying because you are not in their shoes. You think that sexism (or sorry, misogyny) is gone and now misandry has taken its place. I'd say that you can't/won't understand because 1) those shoes don't fit you and 2) you are adamant in your position. Yes, there are also SOME women who are also like that but I have not seen any on this website. Most of them empathize/sympathize when they hear of your struggles with women who go after your money, or don't/won't let you guys see your kids after divorce, etc.
> 
> I for one am happy that there are young men out there willing to listen to what women have gone through and women's perceptions of what is still going on. I think right now there are lots of women who are showing empathy towards men. Not all! We know that. But it is a step in the right direction.


You sir take my breath away. You summed up what I was unable to say. 

Most feminists today are very sympathetic towards men especially in family court. We are BOTH fighting for the same thing. Women should not automatically be assumed to be the better caretaker, that is both sexist and wrong. I for one know plenty of men who are better parents than their wife, my husband included. 

What I simply cannot understand is the hatred towards women for this when we should all band together to ensure the best welfare for our children. Also, 75% of family court judges are men. Elected officials who rule that only women can be caretakers. It is misogynist at its core and needs to stop. Men are wonderful nurturers who deeply love their children and should be allowed the same parental rights as the mother.


----------



## in my tree

Thanks, TRBE. I don't know if it's just old cultural stereotypes, laziness, lack f resources or a combination of the three but what you said is true. Men see it as unfair, and it is. It doesn't take their gifts and loving natures into consideration. What SOME men don't see is that we, as women, can see it as misogynistic too. That we are pigeonholed into being the only ones who can caretake when most know this simply is not true.


----------



## Dreald

EleGirl said:


> You married a spoiled brat and then expected her to not be a spoiled brat? On top of that, you now have so much anger at all women because of this spoiled brat. No other woman has anything to do with your wife's misbehavior. She is solely responsible.
> 
> Further, her behavior is hardly that of a feminist. That’s not how a woman who believes in equal rights behaves.


She didn't express these tendencies while we were dating. Once we were married, it was game on with her. So it wasn't as though I knew what I was getting into it. Complete bait and switch -- and she profited handsomely for it. 

While I agree she is solely responsible, I was talking about and relaying information written by other women (links in the first post and below) that substantiate the premise that if something's wrong, then the man is the one who is responsible for fixing it. And yet you're on here defending her actions by stating I knew what I was getting into so it's my fault for marrying her. Sadly, that mentality seems typical given the responses posted here. 

Equal rights is subjective. She felt entitled to keep her ring after such a short marriage, felt entitled to not pay her debts after we separated, felt entitled to keep $5,000 of my pre-marital money I left in a joint checking account to pay for OUR debts, felt entitled to try and go after the proceeds of my home's sale monies (which she failed at), etc. etc. All in the guise of "Oh boo hoo, like that's going to hurt you". It was never about what was legal or fair -- it was all about her 'rights' as a scorned woman who I decided I could no longer live with. Therefore her feminist belief told her she was entitled to those things because as the weaker sex and the one who was 'victimized' by marrying me, she was due these things. 

Is that clearer? And unfortunately from reading other men's post on TAM, I'm not alone. The WS is quite common among women. Even when a man never cheated, provided for his family, never abused her, didn't do drugs, etc. But it's almost never HER fault....

Here's some more interesting articles written by women (but somehow I doubt you'll read them as it runs counter to your continued defense):

Laura Doyle: Women: Five Reasons Your Divorce Is Your Fault

Laura Doyle: It's the Intimacy, Stupid: 6 Steps for Women to Stamp Out Divorce

How feminism is to blame for the breakdown of the family, by Left-winger Diane Abbott | Mail Online

P.S. Okay, NOW I'm done here....


----------



## Broken at 20

I wanted to point something out:

To graduate from my community college with an associate's degree, I would've needed to take a women's studies class.

And I choose not to. 
But if a guy wants to get a degree from the college, he has to take that class. So I won't be getting an associate's degree, but at least I can transfer to a school that doesn't require it. (have better classes to take)

So most colleges probably require a guy to take the class.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Dreald said:


> She didn't express these tendencies while we were dating. Once we were married, it was game on with her. So it wasn't as though I knew what I was getting into it. Complete bait and switch -- and she profited handsomely for it.
> 
> While I agree she is solely responsible, I was talking about and relaying information written by other women (links in the first post and below) that substantiate the premise that if something's wrong, then the man is the one who is responsible for fixing it. And yet you're on here defending her actions by stating I knew what I was getting into so it's my fault for marrying her. Sadly, that mentality seems typical given the responses posted here.
> 
> Equal rights is subjective. She felt entitled to keep her ring after such a short marriage, felt entitled to not pay her debts after we separated, felt entitled to keep $5,000 of my pre-marital money I left in a joint checking account to pay for OUR debts, felt entitled to try and go after the proceeds of my home's sale monies (which she failed at), etc. etc. All in the guise of "Oh boo hoo, like that's going to hurt you". It was never about what was legal or fair -- it was all about her 'rights' as a scorned woman who I decided I could no longer live with. Therefore her feminist belief told her she was entitled to those things because as the weaker sex and the one who was 'victimized' by marrying me, she was due these things.
> 
> Is that clearer? And unfortunately from reading other men's post on TAM, I'm not alone. The WS is quite common among women. Even when a man never cheated, provided for his family, never abused her, didn't do drugs, etc. But it's almost never HER fault....
> 
> Here's some more interesting articles written by women (but somehow I doubt you'll read them as it runs counter to your continued defense):
> 
> Laura Doyle: Women: Five Reasons Your Divorce Is Your Fault
> 
> Laura Doyle: It's the Intimacy, Stupid: 6 Steps for Women to Stamp Out Divorce
> 
> How feminism is to blame for the breakdown of the family, by Left-winger Diane Abbott | Mail Online
> 
> P.S. Okay, NOW I'm done here....


The problem is that you want to wallow in your misery. You think that your ex was a feminist when nothing could be further from the truth. She was a golddigger and nothing more. You got scammed. 

What if everybody had the attitude you did? I was living with a guy who I thought was a wonderful man. I knew him for over 10 years as childhood friends. I loved him and didn't see signs of him being a violent attempted murderer, cheater and all around scumbag. I gave him access to my bank account and he took $5,000 to buy stuff for himself, for his [email protected] on the side and for friends of his. When I found out what had happened he tried to kill me, choked me until I nearly passed out and by divine intervention I was able to fumble for a steak knife sitting on our kitchen counter and stab his leg with it. 

I would say my experience is far more traumatic than yours but I don't view men in a negative light. I recognize that it was only THAT man who was a complete psychopath and that most men are not him. You on the other hand despise women and view them all as your ex. That is not the fault of women, it's yours.


----------



## EleGirl

Dreald said:


> She didn't express these tendencies while we were dating. Once we were married, it was game on with her. So it wasn't as though I knew what I was getting into it. Complete bait and switch -- and she profited handsomely for it. .


You mentioned earlier that if you ever marry again you will date her for at least a year or two before hand. So you made the mistake that many people do. They marry way too soon. That’s a foolish move.

I’ve told my two sons and my daughter many times to date for at least a year before engagement and then for another year before marriage. I’m doing what I can to help the next generation not make the same mistakes many people make.


Dreald said:


> While I agree she is solely responsible,


Yep, that’s right. I and all the other women on TAM sure as hell are not responsible for her bad behavior.


Dreald said:


> I was talking about and relaying information written by other women (links in the first post and below) that substantiate the premise that if something's wrong, then the man is the one who is responsible for fixing it.


Just because someone (even a woman) wrote something on the internet does not make it so. The woman you quoted is making money by writing things that get people riled up. She is not 

The words you have in your OP do not “substantiate the premise that if something's wrong, then the man is the one who is responsible for fixing it”. The quotes are some pretty ugly, mean spirited things said by men.. like men calling their own children “annoying f****** kid. The rest of it is telling women that the problems in marriage is all the fault of women and what women need to do to shape up to serve men.


Dreald said:


> And yet you're on here defending her actions by stating I knew what I was getting into so it's my fault for marrying her. Sadly, that mentality seems typical given the responses posted here.


Nowhere did I defend her actions. I called her a spoiled brat. If you don’t want to take responsibility for marrying her then that’s your failing, not mine. 

I married some men I should not have married. I could sit here and write that they pulled a bait and switch on me and act like a victim. I’m not a victim. Now, in hindsight, I can look back and see the warning signs that I chose to gloss over. I am the one who chose to ignore the little things that pointed to their future behavior. 

Likewise I have no doubt that your ex had similar things that you overlooked. Add to that your choice to marry her in haste. Your choice to marry her is YOUR doing. Her bad behavior is her doing. 
Stop attacking all women because of your bad experiences.



Dreald said:


> Equal rights is subjective. She felt entitled to keep her ring after such a short marriage,


It’s her legal right to keep her ring after a marriage of any length. Just as its your right to keep any gifts she gave you. 

When I married I gave my husband a ring of equal value to the one he gave me. It’s becoming a common custom for women to do this. And he can keep his ring because it’s legally his.



Dreald said:


> felt entitled to not pay her debts after we separated,


Not my problem. Why did you go along with this? You know it’s not different than my ex keeping his $140K education that I paid for. Should I accuse all men, you included, of being like my entitled ex?


Dreald said:


> felt entitled to keep $5,000 of my pre-marital money I left in a joint checking account to pay for OUR debts,


So you were foolish enough to put your separate assets in a joint account? As soon as you did that they were converted to a community asset. By law she had as much right to that money as you did. I’ve known women who lost fortunes doing this to gold digging husbands. They too were foolish by mixing separate assets with community assets. Learn the laws and protect yourself. And do not attack all women because you did something foolish and she did something selfish.


Dreald said:


> felt entitled to try and go after the proceeds of my home's sale monies (which she failed at), etc. etc.


She can go after anything she wants in a divorce. Men go after everything they can in a divorce as well. My ex certainly did. But here you were protected as she was only entitled to 50% of the increase in equity during your marriage.


Dreald said:


> All in the guise of "Oh boo hoo, like that's going to hurt you". It was never about what was legal or fair -- it was all about her 'rights' as a scorned woman who I decided I could no longer live with.


Again you married a selfish woman. She’s the selfish one. Not me, not the other women on TAM and not most women in this country. Again keep in mind that most women work for a living and in almost half of all marriages, women are the breadwinners today. We have nothing to do with your selfish wife.


Dreald said:


> Therefore her feminist belief told her she was entitled to those things because as the weaker sex and the one who was 'victimized' by marrying me, she was due these things.


You do not understand feminism at all. Feminists do not believe that women are the “weaker sex”. We believe that women are as strong (not physically but in all other ways) as men. We believe we have the same legal rights as men… and we do, finally.

Your wife, as you describe her, is not a feminist. She’s a selfish opportunist who took advantage by working every angle she could.



Dreald said:


> Is that clearer? And unfortunately from reading other men's post on TAM, I'm not alone. The WS is quite common among women. Even when a man never cheated, provided for his family, never abused her, didn't do drugs, etc. But it's almost never HER fault....


Male WS are a little more common than female WS. These men cheat even when their wife has not cheated, even when she took care of the house and raised the children, even when she’s the breadwinner… and most women never abused their husband, never did drugs, etc. But the male WS, just like the female WS, blames it all in the faithful spouse.. it’s never his fault.

Don’t you get it. The male and female WS are just as selfish and blame their BS in exactly the same manner. Why do you think that only women WS do this?


Dreald said:


> Here's some more interesting articles written by women (but somehow I doubt you'll read them as it runs counter to your continued defense):


YOu are so full of ****e!!!! Why would I not read them? You are accusing me of things I do not even believe or think. You don’t even pay attention to what I and the other women here have written. Instead you just keep repeating the same tripe… men are victims of horrible women and all women are horrible.

AT least I am fair and know that most men are not like my exs’ and no man is responsible for my exs’ bad, selfish behavior. And I alone am responsible for my bad choice to marry them.



Dreald said:


> P.S. Okay, NOW I'm done here....


Nice you come here and attack women on TAM. Then you are ‘done here’ when we do not sit here and take your attacks and your anger. 

It’s a shame that you married a selfish woman. But no woman expect her is responsible for what she did. That’s a truth that you need to learn.


----------



## AnnieAsh

Well said, Ele!


----------



## EleGirl

Broken at 20 said:


> I wanted to point something out:
> 
> To graduate from my community college with an associate's degree, I would've needed to take a women's studies class.
> 
> And I choose not to.
> But if a guy wants to get a degree from the college, he has to take that class. So I won't be getting an associate's degree, but at least I can transfer to a school that doesn't require it. (have better classes to take)
> 
> So most colleges probably require a guy to take the class.


All three of my children are in college.. 2 sons and a daughter, none of them have this type of class as a requirement.


----------



## techmom

Dreald said:


> I never said I was a woman. And no, I don't think highly of my exwife. She was a self-entitled, critical, non-compromising feminist princess who thought that after we got married, she could stop compromising and sharing, that I "owed" her for being married to her, that it was okay to be critical of others while rarely ever accepting responsibility for her own actions, and refused to discuss things further after she made her point and I had a legitimate valid reason as to mine.
> 
> I purchased a 2.25ct center diamond ring that cost $17k. Less than 4 months after being married, she said that we could upgrade that at our 5 year anniversary to a 3-3.5 ct center. When I called her on how disrespectful and hurtful for her to say that, she said "Oh, I was only JOKING". But she also demanded 1 ct diamond earrings for our 1 year anniversary. Demanded nice vacations and upgraded her wardrobe on my dime. Demanded that I sell my home in order for us to 'move forward' but did VERY little in assisting but was right there to ensure the check was put into OUR checking account. It cost me over $60k for 14 months. But it was worth every penny to see her in my rearview mirror.
> 
> From the brief time on here, you and her seem quite a bit alike.


This will be my last post addressing you Dreald. In all of my previous posts I stated that my husband and I share our finances 50/50, so there is no way I am like your ex. You were taken advantage of, that much is clear. Please don't take out your hurt and bitterness on feminism and other women, because we don't deserve it. I feel terribly sorry for your next wife or girlfriend.

As far as diamonds go, I avoid wearing them because of the blood soaked way they are retrieved from African countries. I saw the movie "Blood Diamonds" that changed my views on fine jewelry in general. The history of dowaries to brides is interesting considering that feminism has done alot to ensure that women can make a living to support themselves in the absence of men. Dowaries were gifts to ensure that the bride survived, but some brides gave part of the gifts to the groom in order to show goodwill or love in the islamic countries.

Feminism has a long way to go to ensure that women will be paid equally to men in the workforce to level the playing field in relationships and other aspects of life. I hope that the girls today will not have to sucumb to the likes of men who want the upper hand just because they make more money. I hope that SAHMs are respected and that the work they do to raise the next generation of human beings is respected.

I am a feminist and these are the things which are most important to me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

EleGirl said:


> All three of my children are in college.. 2 sons and a daughter, none of them have this type of class as a requirement.


Broken at 20 lives in the land of under bridge dwellers from his first post to now.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

techmom said:


> This will be my last post addressing you Dreald. In all of my previous posts I stated that my husband and I share our finances 50/50, so there is no way I am like your ex. You were taken advantage of, that much is clear. Please don't take out your hurt and bitterness on feminism and other women, because we don't deserve it. I feel terribly sorry for your next wife or girlfriend.
> 
> As far as diamonds go, I avoid wearing them because of the blood soaked way they are retrieved from African countries. I saw the movie "Blood Diamonds" that changed my views on fine jewelry in general. The history of dowaries to brides is interesting considering that feminism has done alot to ensure that women can make a living to support themselves in the absence of men. Dowaries were gifts to ensure that the bride survived, but some brides gave part of the gifts to the groom in order to show goodwill or love in the islamic countries.
> 
> Feminism has a long way to go to ensure that women will be paid equally to men in the workforce to level the playing field in relationships and other aspects of life. I hope that the girls today will not have to sucumb to the likes of men who want the upper hand just because they make more money. I hope that SAHMs are respected and that the work they do to raise the next generation of human beings is respected.
> 
> I am a feminist and these are the things which are most important to me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Exactly!


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Broken at 20 lives in the land of under bridge dwellers from his first post to now.


finally.someone said it.
thank you!


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

ScarletBegonias said:


> finally.someone said it.
> thank you!


Yeah because most people go from: My Dad is cheating on my Mom, he wants to leave her, when I found out and told him to stop he punched me in the face, cut off my college funds, I'm worried about the safety of my sister and he said he would hurt me worse if I told Mom. The next day to a married woman on this forum he screamed at her for not giving enough blow jobs, joined an anal sex thread and announced that all women are selfish. Sounds real to me.


----------



## EleGirl

Dreald said:


> Here's some more interesting articles written by women (but somehow* I doubt you'll read them as it runs counter to your continued defense*):


Ignorant statement (the underlined part).



Dreald said:


> Laura Doyle: Women: Five Reasons Your Divorce Is Your Fault
> 
> Laura Doyle: It's the Intimacy, Stupid: 6 Steps for Women to Stamp Out Divorce
> 
> For the most part I agree with the above articles except as stated below:
> 
> I think that there are more divorces due to abuse and cheating than the other seems to think. I've read that infidelity is involved in about 50% of divorces.
> 
> But for the women who divorce for lessor reasons as listed in the article, I agree. Men also leave their wives for similar reasons.
> 
> The author is only speaking to women. She sadly does not point out is that if either spouse makes those types of changes it can completely change/improve the marriage. Men are as guilty of not being perfect in marriages as women are. And when one spouse makes unilateral changes, like the author mentions, the other spouse has to change. No way around it.
> 
> How feminism is to blame for the breakdown of the family, by Left-winger Diane Abbott | Mail Online


The article states “Feminism is[ partly to blame for the breakdown of the family”. It does not say that feminism is completely to blame for the breakdown of the family.l

If men had not worked so hard to refuse basic legal rights to women, the right to work, the right to earn a living there would not have even been the need for a feminist movement. How sad is it that woman had to fight to get the right to vote? Or the right to own property and earn a living? 

Society went through a very similar struggle when men started to leave the home farm to work in factories. I’ve read articles and books about this. They talk about the breakdown of the family, how men were abandoning their wives and children to go to work in factories. There were huge problems with abandoned children, drugs and alcohol. In the 1800’s there were hundreds of thousands of abandoned children living on the streets of America’s big cities. The same was going on in Europe. What we are seeing in our society today is not new. It’s just another cycle in the evolution of “civilization”. 

Men and women who have learned to reselect, love and value each other are mostly the ones who today have solid marriages and healthy families. Hopefully more men and women will learn how to do this. 

It is not the sole responsibility of women to make a marriage work anymore than it’s the sole responsibility of men to do this.


----------



## in my tree

EleGirl said:


> You mentioned earlier that if you ever marry again you will date her for at least a year or two before hand. So you made the mistake that many people do. They marry way too soon. That’s a foolish move.
> 
> I’ve told my two sons and my daughter many times to date for at least a year before engagement and then for another year before marriage. I’m doing what I can to help the next generation not make the same mistakes many people make.
> 
> Yep, that’s right. I and all the other women on TAM sure as hell are not responsible for her bad behavior.
> 
> Just because someone (even a woman) wrote something on the internet does not make it so. The woman you quoted is making money by writing things that get people riled up. She is not
> 
> The words you have in your OP do not “substantiate the premise that if something's wrong, then the man is the one who is responsible for fixing it”. The quotes are some pretty ugly, mean spirited things said by men.. like men calling their own children “annoying f****** kid. The rest of it is telling women that the problems in marriage is all the fault of women and what women need to do to shape up to serve men.
> 
> *Nowhere did I defend her actions. I called her a spoiled brat. If you don’t want to take responsibility for marrying her then that’s your failing, not mine. *
> 
> I married some men I should not have married. I could sit here and write that they pulled a bait and switch on me and act like a victim.* I’m not a victim.* Now, in hindsight, I can look back and see the warning signs that I chose to gloss over. I am the one who chose to ignore the little things that pointed to their future behavior.
> 
> Likewise I have no doubt that your ex had similar things that you overlooked. Add to that your choice to marry her in haste. Your choice to marry her is YOUR doing. Her bad behavior is her doing.
> Stop attacking all women because of your bad experiences.
> 
> 
> It’s her legal right to keep her ring after a marriage of any length. Just as its your right to keep any gifts she gave you.
> 
> When I married I gave my husband a ring of equal value to the one he gave me. It’s becoming a common custom for women to do this. And he can keep his ring because it’s legally his.
> 
> 
> Not my problem. Why did you go along with this? You know it’s not different than my ex keeping his $140K education that I paid for. Should I accuse all men, you included, of being like my entitled ex?
> 
> So you were foolish enough to put your separate assets in a joint account? As soon as you did that they were converted to a community asset. By law she had as much right to that money as you did. I’ve known women who lost fortunes doing this to gold digging husbands. They too were foolish by mixing separate assets with community assets. Learn the laws and protect yourself. And do not attack all women because you did something foolish and she did something selfish.
> 
> *She can go after anything she wants in a divorce. Men go after everything they can in a divorce as well. My ex certainly did. But here you were protected as she was only entitled to 50% of the increase in equity during your marriage.*
> 
> Again you married a selfish woman. She’s the selfish one. Not me, not the other women on TAM and not most women in this country. Again keep in mind that most women work for a living and in almost half of all marriages, women are the breadwinners today. We have nothing to do with your selfish wife.
> 
> You do not understand feminism at all.* Feminists do not believe that women are the “weaker sex”. We believe that women are as strong (not physically but in all other ways) as men. We believe we have the same legal rights as men… and we do, finally.*
> 
> *Your wife, as you describe her, is not a feminist. She’s a selfish opportunist who took advantage by working every angle she could.*
> 
> 
> Male WS are a little more common than female WS. These men cheat even when their wife has not cheated, even when she took care of the house and raised the children, even when she’s the breadwinner… and most women never abused their husband, never did drugs, etc. But the male WS, just like the female WS, blames it all in the faithful spouse.. it’s never his fault.
> 
> Don’t you get it. The male and female WS are just as selfish and blame their BS in exactly the same manner. Why do you think that only women WS do this?
> 
> YOu are so full of ****e!!!! Why would I not read them? You are accusing me of things I do not even believe or think. You don’t even pay attention to what I and the other women here have written. Instead you just keep repeating the same tripe… men are victims of horrible women and all women are horrible.
> 
> *AT least I am fair and know that most men are not like my exs’ and no man is responsible for my exs’ bad, selfish behavior. And I alone am responsible for my bad choice to marry them.*
> 
> 
> Nice you come here and attack women on TAM. Then you are ‘done here’ when we do not sit here and take your attacks and your anger.
> 
> It’s a shame that you married a selfish woman. But no woman expect her is responsible for what she did. That’s a truth that you need to learn.


Like, Like, Like!! Seriously - how much more can the women here say?? It's like beating your head against a wall. 

Ele is not a victim, she takes responsibility for her decisions. When she earns as much as a man (or more) she pays as much as a man does. She believes that men who are duped by gold digging (not feminist!) women deserve as much empathy as a woman who suffers under a controlling, abusive husband. She believes in equal right and equal pay. She is a feminist! I can't believe that Dreald or George would not agree with these concepts.


----------



## Shadow_Nirvana

I've read some stuff here that's weird, both from the men and from the women. If women here think misandry is just something that crazy women do, instead of a really troubling and common approach to men's societal and legal troubles, then there is real trouble. If men think feminism is bullcrap, then there is real trouble. But I am not going to convince either group, cause trying to win internet debates... meh, not my thing.

Look, feminism made a change from marriage 1.0 to marriage 2.0 in such a quick period, that the laws haven't still been changed accordingly on most accounts. Basically the generations that came after got the shaft, still are getting the shaft in marriage. Societal values had changed entirely, but everybody was acting like nothing has changed. And what changed isn't just about marriage either.

Men are still mostly getting the shaft because of "guilty until proven innocent" approach in most domestic and sexual violence, while women get away with more(look at teachers who have sex with or molest their students-see the differences in the punishment between genders). 

Notice I'm not saying these to absolve men's crimes, but until we put the onus on crimes on women as much as we do on men, maybe we won't suffer from patriarchy or matriarchy, we create a victimarchy. In a victimarchy, there is no societal growth.

And even the societal outlook on false accusation of men(remember the Vassar College Assistant Dean of Student Life) is truly horrifying. That she wasn't absolved of her job there and then, is terrible. That her response didn't cause more then some meek "hey,that's not very nice" kind of approach from the feminists who declare themselves as "the friends of good men"(paraphrasing,obviously) is terrible.The fact that the misguided teen feminist anger against Warren Farrel that became physical in Toronto caused no uproar, is terrible.

I can go on and on about this. Yet you would say feminists are in fact sympthatetic towards men who are slaughtered in family courts. How kind of them. Maybe with that sympathy, men can tell the judge to not put unbearable alimony and child support on them, so they can actually do something than break their backs being the sole provider. Sole provider in marriage, sole provider outside marriage, yet now obviously you don't have the SAHM to take care of you outside of marriage.

And notice the attitude towards men by society in general. When a man tries to read a book about masculinity(basically NMMNG, MMSL, The Way of the Superior Man etc etc), he gets bashed by people, who say "do you need a book on how to be a man?" When he doesn't read those books and is clueless to his own self and changed societal values, he continues being the Nice Guy he is and doesn't get anywhere he wants in life or relations. When a man is at the receiving end of violence from a female, he's told not to retaliate,even by bringing the law into it, and to simply just leave.Yet CDC reports show that women are the perpetrators of domestic violence nearly as much as men.() 

Just a small example.

I'm ranting. Nothing I say here are but small anecdotes that I have to fail building up on in one post. Do I care? No. Was my approach to make anyone see the light? No. Maybe more of blowing off steam, because I truly see no light at the end of the tunnel for men. I see few people fighting for the rights of men in a correct and systematic way, I see some people fighting for those rights in a very bizzaro-backwards way(and even damaging the issue in whole), I see more people fighting against those rights. And worst of all, I see men who don't even fight for their own rights(legal and societal), let alone in a unified and collective manner. I get ultimately aggrieved by clueless white-knights, who think it is okay to try to give without expecting/taking anything back. And I believe I lose hope at the end of the day, hope there will be one day true gender equality and not what we are going through today. Does that mean I'll stop fighting and helping others, whether they be men or women? No. Maybe a couple more centuries later things will settle and I will have had a minuscule part in it. 

Men won't get what they need and want or stop the inequalities, until they start fighting for it in the same way women had to fight for their own rights.

Anyway, last post on this thread, brings up too many issues. Damn, I feel so fcking old for my young age lol.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Dreald said: "She was a self-entitled, critical, non-compromising feminist princess who thought that after we got married, she could stop compromising and sharing, that I "owed" her for being married to her, that it was okay to be critical of others while rarely ever accepting responsibility for her own actions, and refused to discuss things further after she made her point and I had a legitimate valid reason as to mine. 

I purchased a 2.25ct center diamond ring that cost $17k. Less than 4 months after being married, she said that we could upgrade that at our 5 year anniversary to a 3-3.5 ct center. When I called her on how disrespectful and hurtful for her to say that, she said "Oh, I was only JOKING". But she also demanded 1 ct diamond earrings for our 1 year anniversary. Demanded nice vacations and upgraded her wardrobe on my dime. Demanded that I sell my home in order for us to 'move forward' but did VERY little in assisting but was right there to ensure the check was put into OUR checking account. It cost me over $60k for 14 months. But it was worth every penny to see her in my rearview mirror."

Dude, do you really think you don't have a bit of woman-hater in you, due to your experience? It is as plain as day. And the problem is, you will continue to see these negative traits in women because it is all you look for. That is so sad.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

MuZemike said:


> What do you women think about this
> 
> Dad must pay child support for 3 kids that aren't his: Court rules | Canada | News | Toronto Sun


It's ridiculous and makes me angry.


----------



## EleGirl

MuZemike said:


> What do you women think about this
> 
> Dad must pay child support for 3 kids that aren't his: Court rules | Canada | News | Toronto Sun


I think what his wife did is a crime and she should be prosecuted and have to pay damages to her husband.

He probably loves the children he raised. So if he is up to raising them he should have 100% custody of all 4 children. The mother could have supervised visitation to prevent her from lying and poisoning the children against their father. The only reason I'd give her any visitation is because the children would not understand why they are losing their mother 100%. She should have to pay him child support.

And yes I do consider him the father of all 4 children. He most likely also considers himself the father. 

I raised my two step children with no help from their parents. And my son is adopted. A person does not need to be a bio-parent to love a child.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

EleGirl said:


> A person does not need to be a bio-parent to love a child.


Agreed, the difference being they should be told upfront that the child they are raising is not their biological one. If they chose to stick around, then that is their choice. Lying about paternity is just about the most disgusting thing a woman can do. Actually, it's probably THE most disgusting thing a woman can do.


----------



## EleGirl

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Agreed, the difference being they should be told upfront that the child they are raising is not their biological one. If they chose to stick around, then that is their choice. Lying about paternity is just about the most disgusting thing a woman can do. Actually, it's probably THE most disgusting thing a woman can do.


Absolutely a man should be told upfront that a child is not his bio-child. He should have a choice in this to start with.

The thing is that I believe that most men would not hurt a child they have raised for 12 or 15 years and just dump the child. So at the point this man found out I think he has the right to raise the children he has learned to love without the lying cheat wife/exwife in his life.

Lying about the father of a child is dispicable.


----------



## Shadow_Nirvana

EleGirl said:


> Absolutely a man should be told upfront that a child is not his bio-child. He should have a choice in this to start with.
> 
> The thing is that I believe that most men would not hurt a child they have raised for 12 or 15 years and just dump the child. So at the point this man found out I think he has the right to raise the children he has learned to love without the lying cheat wife/exwife in his life.
> 
> Lying about the father of a child is dispicable.


So okay, what about women not wanting mandatory paternity tests? How is a man supposed to truly know about something like this, in another way than trusting the word of the mother?

Edit: I do realize I did say the former post was my last, I really wanted to get the female opinion on this.


----------



## EleGirl

Shadow_Nirvana said:


> So okay, what about women not wanting mandatory paternity tests? How is a man supposed to truly know about something like this, in another way than trusting the word of the mother?
> 
> Edit: I do realize I did say the former post was my last, I really wanted to get the female opinion on this.


I have no problem with mandatory paternity tests. 

I think that a man should be able to opt out of them if he wants. But if he does not care then it can be a normal part of the birthing process.

They now have a blood test for paternity testing. they draw the mother's blood and separate out the baby's blood cells and run the DNA on those. I can be done early in pregnancy.

I understand that the before DNA tests it was assumed that any children born to a married woman was her husband's child. What else could they do? But now we have DNA tests. So we can find out.

There is an issue of expense and who pays for it. But that's another issue.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Totally off topic but OP brought up diamonds. Am I the only one who really doesn't like them? Why would I want to wear a stone on my finger to "symbolize" love that has so much blood on it?
> Also, when did the bigger the better = the man must love you more? It boggles my mind. I think that mindset is hideous.


I usually only buy other peoples old jewelry- antiques. I actually do like diamonds, but prefer very old 100 yr plus diamonds and refuse to contribute to the diamond trade by buying new. I think antique jewelry is much better made too.

However I've never demanded a giant diamond and I do feel sick when I see people buying these churned out blood diamond rings. How anyone can wear them knowing the price other people have to pay, is very sad.


----------



## EleGirl

What the guys here who are throwing around this anti female nonsense seem to forget is that women have men who we care about. We want to best for those men. We sure as hell do not want some low life wife cheating on them and then sticking them with affair babies. We don't want them falsely accused of abuse, or having to pay support when it's not needed. We want them to have 50% custody of their children in divorce.

I have 3 brothers, 2 sons and about a dozen nephews. Why would I want them screwed over? Think about that.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

in my tree said:


> I don't know why I'm responding because evidently you are now gone, George. However I will say that my 23 y.o. daughter is taking women's studies this semester and she said it is really opening her eyes. She had no idea of the some of the history behind women and women's rights in this country. She also said that there are young men in this class *gasp*!! I hope they don't become wimpy, beta, doormats! Btw - my daughter has short hair, piercings, tattoos and is a very independent minded woman. She's also girly in her dress, loves to cook, cleans, and spoils her bf. What a weirdo!
> 
> If you do return, I will say that I think it is difficult for you to accept or understand what the women here are saying because you are not in their shoes. You think that sexism (or sorry, misogyny) is gone and now misandry has taken its place. I'd say that you can't/won't understand because 1) those shoes don't fit you and 2) you are adamant in your position. Yes, there are also SOME women who are also like that but I have not seen any on this website. Most of them empathize/sympathize when they hear of your struggles with women who go after your money, or don't/won't let you guys see your kids after divorce, etc.
> 
> I for one am happy that there are young men out there willing to listen to what women have gone through and women's perceptions of what is still going on. I think right now there are lots of women who are showing empathy towards men. Not all! We know that. But it is a step in the right direction.


That's an awesome post. 

I for one certainly do not think all women are sunshine and rainbows.

My fiance's ex is what I call a bad example of womanhood. 

She talked him into an open marriage (because she wanted to cheat), he wanted counseling, she refused, then she ran off with one of the men she was cheating with. Admits, he was a wonderful husband and great step dad to her daughters, a fantastic father to their son.

She has ever since been manipulative and has taken every cent she could from him, and still often behaves in such terrible ways. 

I can see from both sides that there are terrible women and terrible men, there are good women and good men.

The problem is that things are still stacked against women. Women's life chances are far less then a mans because of sexism and so forth.

Also Shadow Nirvana, I have posted on this site before, stats showing that the odds of a man being falsely accused of sexual assault are very slim, but the odds of a woman being sexually assaulted or raped in her life time are extremely high, almost one in every 2 women. 

That doesn't excuse bad behaviour or false accusations (which are inexcusable), however when people keep using it as an example to say that men have things just as bad, then I can't help thinking, they are seeing just what they want to see, and nothing will change and no one will move forward unless we truly recognise the imbalance.


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## Dreald

EleGirl said:


> What the guys here who are throwing around this anti female nonsense seem to forget is that women have men who we care about. We want to best for those men. We sure as hell do not want some low life wife cheating on them and then sticking them with affair babies. We don't want them falsely accused of abuse, or having to pay support when it's not needed. We want them to have 50% custody of their children in divorce.
> 
> I have 3 brothers, 2 sons and about a dozen nephews. Why would I want them screwed over? Think about that.



OMG, LOL!

Is that why this was posted? http://talkaboutmarriage.com/1461514-post168.html


































Yeah, PURE acceptance there! 

What about the widely accepted statement of: "Men marry women, hoping they won't change but they do. Women marry men, expecting them to change, but they don't"

Hypocrisy at it's best. Thanks for substantiating things....


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## Runs like Dog

MuZemike said:


> What do you women think about this
> 
> Dad must pay child support for 3 kids that aren't his: Court rules | Canada | News | Toronto Sun


That kind of sux. But -- I saw a presentation by Dave Foley (News Radio, Kids in Hall, etc) who mentioned that Canadian child support laws broken. What EVER you are assessed at the time of the divorce for child support NEVER changes (goes down) regardless of your circumstances. So don't get divorced if you're having a good year because when you're not having a good year you'll have no recourse.


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## TiggyBlue

Dreald said:


> OMG, LOL!
> 
> Is that why this was posted? http://talkaboutmarriage.com/1461514-post168.html
> 
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> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, PURE acceptance there!
> 
> What about the widely accepted statement of: "Men marry women, hoping they won't change but they do. Women marry men, expecting them to change, but they don't"
> 
> Hypocrisy at it's best. Thanks for substantiating things....


EleGirl didn't post that.


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## Dreald

TiggyBlue said:


> EleGirl didn't post that.


No, FrenchFry did -- to which EleGirl has agreed with multiple times. But does it make any difference? She's trying to say that women want the best for their men. While that may be true, it's in the confine of what THEY (the woman) deems best. Any disagreement creates conflict. 

Acceptance is only something that some women agree with as long as it coincides with what they think is best. But other times, they don't want their husband to agree with them, they want to be challenged and have him lead (aka as "s*it tests). WHEN that occurs is subjective and at the sole discretion of the female.....

Unbelievable. Any wonder why men can't understand women and a majority of women, from what I've heard expressed, can't stand working for another woman?


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## Dreald

One last question:

If men and women are equal (in the age of 'feminism') -- why is it that the choice to have a baby or not is the sole discretion of the woman? If she chooses to have an abortion, why "it's her right". If she chooses to have the baby, why "it's her right". It's her final decision whether the baby is born or not. The man has NO say in that factor. 

Even when a woman fraudulently states that she's on birth control when she is not. Yet he'll be responsible for 18 years of child support simply because it's HER wish to become pregnant. Again, HER decision. Only one person out of two makes the decision. 

Is that 'fair' in the age of equality? Even if he wears a condom, they may break, slip, crack, have holes in them, have pinholes put in them by a woman that wants a baby and EVEN if he's NOT the biological father, courts have ordered that the man is STILL responsible for child support or if he anonymously provides sperm to a woman, he can STILL be found financially responsible for the child. 

Fair? Methinks not. Oh, but that's 'equal' in the eyes of many women....incredible.


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## Dreald

FrenchFry said:


> Yeah, I posted it because I feel your shrill rhetoric and clear bitterness is pretty much only worth responding to with sarcasm. Elegirl has way more patience than I do, so commend her and take what she says as her own individual words. If you have an issue with me personally, focus on me personally.
> 
> For the record, I also have a son and a husband, both of whom I lnove very much and have no desire to smush their grapes...unless my husband asks very nicely.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ah, I see...using the 'ole "but that was just SARCASM" excuse. Feelings as you pointed out, are quite subjective and open to interpretation. But only when they're challenged with facts does the person retract from their original position. 

Yeah, I'm bitter. I see the fallacies of how women want the 'old ways' when it serves them, but neglect to uphold the 'old ways' of THEIR responsibilities during that same time-frame. Women love chivalry and expect men to act that way but when asked for them to act like ladies of old, they proclaim that they don't have to because they're 'liberated'. 

Cake-eater to say the least. I'd suggest that you read through the reader comments of all the articles I posted. You can dismiss my comments with ease no doubt, but when you read through those comments from both men AND women, you may learn something....but I doubt you'll do it.


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## in my tree

Dreald said:


> Ah, I see...using the 'ole "but that was just SARCASM" excuse. Feelings as you pointed out, are quite subjective and open to interpretation. But only when they're challenged with facts does the person retract from their original position.
> 
> Yeah, I'm bitter. I see the fallacies of how women want the 'old ways' when it serves them, but neglect to uphold the 'old ways' of THEIR responsibilities during that same time-frame. Women love chivalry and expect men to act that way but when asked for them to act like ladies of old, they proclaim that they don't have to because they're 'liberated'.
> 
> Cake-eater to say the least. I'd suggest that you read through the reader comments of all the articles I posted. You can dismiss my comments with ease no doubt, but when you read through those comments from both men AND women, you may learn something....but I doubt you'll do it.


Except for the first paragraph which is in reference to French Fry's post, what does the rest of this have to do with the women here? I haven't seen one post from anyone here expecting what you are up in arms about.


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## EleGirl

EleGirl said:


> What the guys here who are throwing around this anti female nonsense seem to forget is that women have men who we care about. We want to best for those men. We sure as hell do not want some low life wife cheating on them and then sticking them with affair babies. We don't want them falsely accused of abuse, or having to pay support when it's not needed. We want them to have 50% custody of their children in divorce.
> 
> I have 3 brothers, 2 sons and about a dozen nephews. Why would I want them screwed over? Think about that.





Dreald said:


> OMG, LOL!
> 
> Is that why this was posted? http://talkaboutmarriage.com/1461514-post168.html
> 
> Yeah, PURE acceptance there!


I did not post that. I think it was posted as a joke.. do you have a sense of humor? It definitely pokes fun at the stupid stuff you are accusing all women of.

What? IT’s hypocrisy at its best that I want the best for the men in my life? 

You are so out of line. You don’t know me and now you are accusing me of lying about wanting the best for by brothers, sons and nephews? Really? 



Dreald said:


> What about the widely accepted statement of: "Men marry women, hoping they won't change but they do. Women marry men, expecting them to change, but they don't"


There are kinds of cute saying that people use to try to pigeon hole people. They say nothing about individuals.


Dreald said:


> Hypocrisy at it's best. Thanks for substantiating things....


What did I substantiate by saying that is want the best for the men in my life. And for that reason I do not support the kinds of anti-male hate you are trying to prove that all women have.

Your bitterness is toxic.


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## Dreald

EleGirl said:


> What? IT’s hypocrisy at it’s best that I want the best for the men in my life?
> 
> You are so out of line. You don’t know me and now you are accusing me of lying about wanting the best for by brothers, sons and nephews? Really?
> 
> 
> There are kinds of cute saying that people use to try to pigeon hole people. They say nothing about individuals.
> 
> What did I substantiate by saying that is want the best for the men in my life. And for that reason I do not support the kinds of anti-male hate you are trying to prove that all women have.
> 
> Your bitterness is toxic.


No, I don't know you but at least three ex-husbands do. I never said you were lying about wanting the best for your brothers, sons or nephews but not surprisingly, you turned it into that. And it takes two to makes things work or NOT make things work. I really don't think you're one to pontificate on what makes a marriage work or not or how women aren't somewhat responsible for their failed marriage. 

I offered an article written by two females on the woman's role in why their divorce occurred. The HYPOCRISY those females pointed out. I've noticed that you've not once referenced ANY of her comments which lends me to believe you never even read it. Nor have you addressed any of the other 3 articles I posted. If that makes me anti-women, so be it. I call a spade a spade when I see it. Kind of sucks for someone like yourself I guess. 

Instead, you played the 'victim' role that's SO often played that frankly, it's pathetic to hear it again and again. After 3 times at bat, I seriously doubt you were always the victim in the marriage. The only victim I see is the inability to define what your boundaries are and consequently, always willing to play the victim when things don't work out. Not surprisingly, you also portrayed your other sibling sisters as also being the victim's in their failed marriages. Surprising? ......

But I'm sure you'll be defensive in your retort and blame-shift this onto me, my perspective, an 'isolated incident', etc. etc. Being a victim IS easier though so I understand why you do it. It allows one to go through life without accepting personal responsibility.


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## EleGirl

Dreald said:


> No, FrenchFry did -- to which EleGirl has agreed with multiple times.


Now you are on a witch hunt. I’m not allowed to agree with FrenchFry on a lot of things. As I said before it’s obvious she posted that as HUMOR. Are you aware of what HUMOR is? Geez.. lighten up some.



Dreald said:


> But does it make any difference? She's trying to say that women want the best for their men. While that may be true, it's in the confine of what THEY (the woman) deems best. Any disagreement creates conflict.


Wow.. just wow. 


Dreald said:


> Acceptance is only something that some women agree with as long as it coincides with what they think is best. But other times, they don't want their husband to agree with them, they want to be challenged and have him lead (aka as "s*it tests). WHEN that occurs is subjective and at the sole discretion of the female.....
> The funny things is that while you post this about women, it’s obvious that you can only stand it when women agree with you 100%. You are even here telling us what we think and angry because we keep telling you that you do not think the way you think we do.
> 
> Stop trying to tell us how we think. Women are not all one big group hooked up to the evil female matrix that you seem to think controls our brains.
> 
> 
> Dreald said:
> 
> 
> 
> Unbelievable. Any wonder why men can't understand women and a majority of women, from what I've heard expressed, can't stand working for another woman?
> 
> 
> 
> Ha!!! Now you are trying to hit below the belt “even women cannot stand working for women”. I guess you don’t know the women I’ve worked for. Great, intelligent women who are great bosses. For the most part the men I’ve worked for are the same.
Click to expand...


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## EleGirl

Dreald said:


> Ah, I see...using the 'ole "but that was just SARCASM" excuse. Feelings as you pointed out, are quite subjective and open to interpretation. But only when they're challenged with facts does the person retract from their original position.
> 
> Yeah, I'm bitter. I see the fallacies of how women want the 'old ways' when it serves them, but neglect to uphold the 'old ways' of THEIR responsibilities during that same time-frame. Women love chivalry and expect men to act that way but when asked for them to act like ladies of old, they proclaim that they don't have to because they're 'liberated'.
> 
> Cake-eater to say the least. I'd suggest that you read through the reader comments of all the articles I posted. You can dismiss my comments with ease no doubt, but when you read through those comments from both men AND women, you may learn something....but I doubt you'll do it.


Since you know so much about me, please tell me who I have insisted on the 'old ways' when it suits me but then refused to act like a lady. Are you really saying that I do not act like a lady in my life?

How do you know this about me? Do you know where I live? Do you know how I spend my day? What did I do today? How was I not a lady today?


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## EleGirl

Dreald said:


> No, I don't know you but at least three ex-husbands do. …. And it takes two to makes things work or NOT make things work. I really don't think you're one to pontificate on what makes a marriage work or not or how women aren't somewhat responsible for their failed marriage.


If you think that there is a reason for a man to try to kill his wife with a straight razor then by all means tell me what I or any women could have done to justify that. Please do.


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## Dreald

EleGirl said:


> Now you are on a witch hunt. I’m not allowed to agree with FrenchFry on a lot of things. As I said before it’s obvious she posted that as HUMOR. Are you aware of what HUMOR is? Geez.. lighten up some.
> 
> 
> Wow.. just wow.
> 
> 
> Dreald said:
> 
> 
> 
> Acceptance is only something that some women agree with as long as it coincides with what they think is best. But other times, they don't want their husband to agree with them, they want to be challenged and have him lead (aka as "s*it tests). WHEN that occurs is subjective and at the sole discretion of the female.....
> The funny things is that while you post this about women, it’s obvious that you can only stand it when women agree with you 100%. You are even here telling us what we think and angry because we keep telling you that you do not think the way you think we do.
> 
> Stop trying to tell us how we think. Women are not all one big group hooked up to the evil female matrix that you seem to think controls our brains.
> 
> Ha!!! Now you are trying to hit below the belt “even women cannot stand working for women”. I guess you don’t know the women I’ve worked for. Great, intelligent women who are great bosses. For the most part the men I’ve worked for are the same.
> 
> 
> 
> No, FrenchFry said it herself that it was SARCASM. Sarcasm is humor at someone else's expense and most consider it to be a veiled attack on an individual. Shocking you didn't see that difference either.... Do you need to look it up in order to understand the difference?
> 
> I'm not angry at your or anyone else who doesn't see things the way that I do. But when I point out hypocritical positions that are subjective at best, you clearly can't differentiate the difference. You either ignore it or dismiss it as a singular incidence. THAT does get me going.
> 
> Notice how you make no mention of my post regarding the hypocrisy of how it's the WOMAN'S choice to conceive a baby or keep a baby, Not the man's. He has no right in the say of his future offspring but is fully responsible for it's financial aspects if a woman decides to have it. If you're so equal rights, I'd think you'd feel different if you were truly concerned with 'equality'. Gee, it's nice to pick and choose.....
> 
> I don't think there's a female matrix where ALL women think the way you do. Thank God I don't. But there's a growing awareness of both men and women, that are seeing the double-standard between the sexes. Much like the double-standard of minority or protected class advantages in the workplace, but none in athletics. The latter has always been the 'best person for the job', regardless of race or gender.
> 
> And regarding my comment about women working for other women -- yes, it's anecdotal and only based on my 20 years of hearing women say that they'd much rather work for a man than work for a woman. I myself have had two great female bosses and one terrible one. So it's not MY personal experience, but only what I've heard from probably over 30 different women that have expressed that same sentiment over the years.
Click to expand...


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## Dreald

EleGirl said:


> If you think that there is a reason for a man to try to kill his wife with a straight razor then by all means tell me what I or any women could have done to justify that. Please do.


No, but I DO know there's a t.v. series on how women have killed or attempted to kill their husbands for financial gain called "Snapped". BTW, a personal anecdote doesn't make truth.

It's time to get out of your bubble of 'awareness' and stop relying on your personal emotions as fact. I've read FAR too many stories here on TAM and elsewhere that substantiate what the women I referenced initially, to be anything other than my personal opinion.


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