# My mind and gut disagree



## tephros (May 24, 2020)

I started dating my wife 6 years ago, married almost 2 years, have kids aged 4 and 2.5 years old.

I'm a 36 year old man. Since I was 13, I've had a pattern of not wanting to be single for even a month, and have tended to choose a partner based upon them showing extreme interest. Perhaps for this reason, I don't think I've ever been in love and my wife is no exception. In addition to being completely intolerant of being single, I also feel this extreme need to find somebody to be in love with, like way more important than anything else except my kids, but know that I would need to tolerate being single for possibly years to find somebody that compatible. I feel ready for that now.

The early days of dating my wife were somewhat happy. I found her attractive, but not my dream girl. Never really liked talking to her (unlike a rare few I have dated) but our views on things are similar. Our 4 year old was difficult since birth, and things were definitely not happy until our other child was born because she became obsessed with his (perceived) needs and completely cold towards me, and irrationally anxious in general to the point where I would wonder if it'll cause me to die of stress. Our 2.5 year old daughter is a complete joy and the best thing in my life, almost to the extent that I considered giving up on love to not be separated from her. I've concluded staying together for the kids is not the best thing, and I would still see my daughter just not daily.

During a rare argument a few months ago I threatened to leave her, after years of gentle complaining that never hit home. Since then, she stopped being obsessive towards our son (like a normal mom now) but has been obsessive with trying to keep me. All the things I could list that I didn't like, she has changed... And while I don't trust that these changes are permanent, they also don't make me feel any differently. And I think about it during most of my free moments - of leaving, fear of leaving, yearning to leave, etc.

I have absolutely no enthusiasm for being around her or a future with her. She's attractive, the sex is good and unlike before is frequent enough now - she seems to be madly in love with me and says I was her dream from day 1, and I have kids with her. My mind really wants me to stay, but my heart just isn't in it. Some people say you can learn to love anybody. I can't imagine my feelings changing, though. We have two separate marriage counselors that we've seen for about 4 sessions each and their suggestions just don't change how I feel so far. I mean, I care about her, but I want to find somebody I actually want to spend time with and get joy from making them happy.

That may sound like a conclusion, it's just the stakes are pretty high and given the fact that I married her and had kids with her, and feel this way now, I just don't trust myself in making big decisions. Thoughts?


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

tephros said:


> given the fact that I married her and had kids with her, and feel this way now, I just don't trust myself in making big decisions.


Good. You need to think again.



tephros said:


> I've concluded staying together for the kids is not the best thing


*How* did you conclude that?

Basically, marriage counseling is completely the wrong solution. (And I rarely say that, being a professional MC).

You need individual counseling. You need to find out what the following is about:



tephros said:


> Since I was 13, I've had a pattern of not wanting to be single for even a month, and have tended to choose a partner based upon them showing extreme interest.


You need to find out why that is, with a therapist. 

You need to find out why you would consider abandoning your children, based on a slim chance of finding somebody "compatible enough" that you will love them, which you say you have never really experienced ("I don't think I've ever been in love"). You need to find a way to love your wife, but first you need to figure out why you have this urge to escape at this time.


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

tephros said:


> She's attractive, the sex is good and unlike before is frequent enough now - she seems to be madly in love with me and says I was her dream from day 1, and I have kids with her.
> Our 2.5 year old daughter is a complete joy and the best thing in my life


If you leave, you're being foolish. You will never find anyone better than her. Most of us would do anything to have a wife like you have. You are absolutely right to distrust yourself to make this decision. Your head is right, your heart is wrong.

@Laurentium knocked this one out of the park. Take his advice. Get a good IC and figure out why your emotions don't react.


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## tephros (May 24, 2020)

Laurentium said:


> Good. You need to think again.
> 
> 
> 
> *How* did you conclude that?


Because they will be okay. Both their mother and I have a decent income, and emotionally it's debateable whether they would benefit more from parents who are unhappy together versus parents who are happier apart.



> Basically, marriage counseling is completely the wrong solution. (And I rarely say that, being a professional MC).
> 
> You need individual counseling. You need to find out what the following is about:
> 
> ...


I am in individual counseling, though only a few sessions. The focus so far has really been on being aware of my emotions. I feel like the issue is in the past, really, since I do feel ready to be single now. The purpose was to explain how I got into this situation.



> You need to find out why you would consider abandoning your children,


Divorcing an unhappy marriage is not equivalent to abandoning children. I would still see them at least on weekends and support them financially.



> based on a slim chance of finding somebody "compatible enough" that you will love them, which you say you have never really experienced ("I don't think I've ever been in love"). You need to find a way to love your wife, but first you need to figure out why you have this urge to escape at this time.


The chances aren't slim. And that's nice you think I need to find a way to love my wife, but it feels impossible. I've had an urge to escape for most of the relationship. The trigger was really my work getting busier in January, which caused me to lose touch with some hobbies that helped me escape my discontent, and then these long-standing issues were brought to the surface.


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## tephros (May 24, 2020)

TJW said:


> If you leave, you're being foolish. You will never find anyone better than her. Most of us would do anything to have a wife like you have. You are absolutely right to distrust yourself to make this decision. Your head is right, your heart is wrong.
> 
> @Laurentium knocked this one out of the park. Take his advice. Get a good IC and figure out why your emotions don't react.


Apparently it sounds ideal to you, what little I told you, but sex and attraction is a need easier to meet than somebody you want to talk to, at least for me.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

tephros said:


> I am in individual counseling, though only a few sessions. The focus so far has really been on being aware of my emotions.


I am glad to hear that. If the therapist is any good, then give it a few more sessions. The clinical evidence suggests that six months work is about the minimum for real change. 



> I feel like the issue is in the past, really, since I do feel ready to be single now.


Well look, there is no point in me debating with you. In the end you will make your own decision. But you did write, in the present tense:


tephros said:


> I also feel this extreme need to find somebody to be in love with


But I will say that if you now, compared to the past, feel more able to tolerate singleness, and less dependent on a relationship, _then that is exactly where you need to be to fix your marriage._ You have an opportunity here.


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## marcy* (Feb 27, 2010)

What makes you think that if you leave her you are not going to rush into another relationship just not to be alone?
You have a good wife who worries about you and kids. Who is willing to change to make you happy. I feel like you don’t know what you want. You complained when dhe wasn’t giving you enough attention because of your son, now that she changed you still not satisfied. The problem is not her, but you. I feel bad for her because you will never love her even if you never divorce her. I don’t want to live with someone who doesn’t love me. I am ready to leave my husbsnd because of his abusive behavior, but I can tell you, he loves me in his own way. Maybe that’s why I stayed married to him this long even though has been not easy.


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## tephros (May 24, 2020)

marcy* said:


> What makes you think that if you leave her you are not going to rush into another relationship just not to be alone?
> You have a good wife who worries about you and kids. Who is willing to change to make you happy. I feel like you don’t know what you want. You complained whrn dhe wasn’t giving you enough attention because if your son, now that dhe changed you still not satisfied. The problem is not her, but you. I feel bad for her because you will never love her even if you never divorce her. I don’t want to live with someone who doesn’t love me. I am ready to leave my husbsnd because of his abusive behavior, but I can tell you, he loves me in his own way. Maybe that’s why I stayed married to him this long even though has been not easy.


Sorry abuse is an issue for you, and you raise an important point about how this isn't fair to her in terms of being loved.

Your first sentence is exactly what I know I need to avoid in order to break this cycle. I never felt able before recently. 

It's not really confusion about what I want so much as wishing I felt differently.
It's not that I am not glad for the changes, it's just that I feel like something very important is still missing. If she was not being so great about everything, the decision would be far easier. Some days I feel like I have made my mind up to leave, but on the days I don't feel that way it's never about wanting to be with her but rather my kids, or not hurting her.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Way too often we train our mind for the unmindful convinced we are unhappy mostly because we have advocated for a place that believes we are owed a level of happiness we perceive we are not currently living.

Never in love yet intolerant of being single... sounds like a personal purgatory to me. In this place though you have chosen to include others in your suffering.

It sounds like there are times when love is being used selectively... you are not sharing the same love you have for your children with your wife and I am not sure why you are compartmentalizing something that was never meant to be treated this way in a family? Different love, yes... but not withholding love.

You mentioned a list of things she needed to change... do you have a list for yourself?

We cannot be kind only on our terms... yet it sounds like you are doing just that and I am not sure why you would limit these things to someone you made promises to.


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## FamilyMan216 (Apr 1, 2020)

tephros said:


> Because they will be okay. Both their mother and I have a decent income, and emotionally it's debateable whether they would benefit more from parents who are unhappy together versus parents who are happier apart.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


”I’d at least see them on the weekend” how selfish is that?


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## tephros (May 24, 2020)

FamilyMan216 said:


> ”I’d at least see them on the weekend” how selfish is that?


That's how it would work out logistically. It's not ideal, but it's also not healthy to stay together just for the kids. It's not about being selfish, it's about being honest.


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## tephros (May 24, 2020)

Emerging Buddhist said:


> Way too often we train our mind for the unmindful convinced we are unhappy mostly because we have advocated for a place that believes we are owed a level of happiness we perceive we are not currently living.
> 
> Never in love yet intolerant of being single... sounds like a personal purgatory to me. In this place though you have chosen to include others in your suffering.
> 
> ...


Well for starters I would need to find a way to want to be with her. I just have doubts about that because I know it was a mistake to get with her in the first place. Love as an action that gives rise to feelings is foreign to me. I do things for my kids because I want to. I love them automatically. Relationships requires work, sure, but even when difficult the desire to be in it needs to come from somewhere and it's not there. It would be far easier to stay. I'd prefer to want to stay. But I can't feel or believe something just because I want to.


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## FamilyMan216 (Apr 1, 2020)

tephros said:


> That's how it would work out logistically. It's not ideal, but it's also not healthy to stay together just for the kids. It's not about being selfish, it's about being honest.


Effort. You said there was nothing wrong she's doing. Might just regret it in the long run


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

This is one if the more narcissistic posts I’ve read. OP, you seem to totally lack empathy for your wife and kids. I do think it’s only fair to show this thread to your wife so she can see your actual thoughts about her and divorce you. Since you admittedly need a constant source of supply, you will undoubtedly try to go back to your wife. So you might consider going to a specialist that deals with whatever your problems are that’s preventing you from loving a person that loves you. Maybe it can be fixed and you can learn to love your wife.


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## tephros (May 24, 2020)

Evinrude58 said:


> This is one if the more narcissistic posts I’ve read. OP, you seem to totally lack empathy for your wife and kids. I do think it’s only fair to show this thread to your wife so she can see your actual thoughts about her and divorce you. Since you admittedly need a constant source of supply, you will undoubtedly try to go back to your wife. So you might consider going to a specialist that deals with whatever your problems are that’s preventing you from loving a person that loves you. Maybe it can be fixed and you can learn to love your wife.


My wife is fully aware of these thoughts, as are all of our therapists. My wife just says she wants to be with me more than anything and that it would be a mistake for me to leave. One of the therapists told me to keep in mind I have a lot to lose, my individual one told me to try investing in the relationship and see how it makes me feel. The constant recommendation has been to give it 6 months of fully trying before giving up - but it would be nice to figure it out one way or the other before the move. It's looking unlikely, though. 

Haven't actually shown her the thread though. Not sure if there's any thing of value to show her. She's not egotistical enough to get off on being seen as the good one in the relationship.

Narcissism? HAHA. I think you completely misunderstand where I came from in the past (doesn't actually apply anymore). It wasn't a need for admiration. I'm an introvert who avoids attention. It was more a need for affection, some kind of insecurity about abandonment. Whatever it was, it seems like it's gone, but hard to tell unless I actually go out there and be single.

I empathize with them. Doesn't mean any of us will be happy if we force an unhappy marriage to persist. Pretty crazy to think somebody lacks empathy simply because they do not love somebody who loves them. Foolish for getting into this situation... that's the criticism that would make sense. But people seem to have all kinds of ideas on what love is, and who can love who in what way and under what circumstances.


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## tephros (May 24, 2020)

FamilyMan216 said:


> Effort. You said there was nothing wrong she's doing. Might just regret it in the long run


That might actually be the most useful post so far. I need to accept that this isn't going to be a decision I can make in just a couple months, because it's not some kind of clear cut horrible relationship.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

@tephros, have you been diagnosed with any personality disorder? You laughed at the idea of NPD but in all honesty you sound like an introverted/covert narcissist (not all narcissists are showy and in your face). 
I feel sorry for your wife and kids. How old are you now? It might be better for your wife to move on and find someone who will actually love her. You also complained about your son because he was difficult, (he is only a little boy) and you feel he took time away from you. You have a problem within yourself. Hasn't your therapist identified it yet. You mention your past and an issue with abandonment, all precursors to either narcissism or co-dependency and I don't think you are the latter.


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## tephros (May 24, 2020)

aine said:


> @tephros, have you been diagnosed with any personality disorder? You laughed at the idea of NPD but in all honesty you sound like an introverted/covert narcissist (not all narcissists are showy and in your face).
> I feel sorry for your wife and kids. How old are you now? It might be better for your wife to move on and find someone who will actually love her. You also complained about your son because he was difficult, (he is only a little boy) and you feel he took time away from you. You have a problem within yourself. Hasn't your therapist identified it yet. You mention your past and an issue with abandonment, all precursors to either narcissism or co-dependency and I don't think you are the latter.


My problem isn't pervasive enough to be called a personality disorder. It only appears to affect my functioning in romantic relationships. Maybe people are picking up on the criteria for preoccupation with ideal love and their false impression that I lack empathy, but even if they were right, it wouldn't qualify. I have a fairly neutral opinion of myself overall. I try to understand myself and why I fail or succeed, but I don't dwell on remorse or pride. And if I can't love my wife as she should be loved, it really would be better for everybody if it ended. No judgement of that is needed. What is needed is a reasonable plan of action to sort it out.

Your assumptions about how I feel about my son are false. When somebody gives incomplete information because the story is too complicated to convey in posts - don't fill in the blanks if you want to be helpful. Ask, or comment based upon what is actually said.

My son has been difficult, but I don't want to go into it. This isn't about blaming him, it's about explaining issues in the relationship. My wife's response to him being difficult was excessive and obsessive at the expense of everything else in life. That was the point and she agrees with that now.

I mean, is your post really meant to be helpful, or do you just enjoy beating up on the apparent bad guy in the story because of your own tragedies? I probably shouldn't have bothered responding. Maybe I'm a narcissist after all and you wounded my fragile ego! ... or maybe toxic people just make me want to vomit words at them in hopes that they'll be less toxic to somebody else who wants help.


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## hubbyintrubby (Jul 5, 2019)

I'm obviously no therapist and dislike when people diagnose others here with anything really, but your original post screams codependency to me. It takes one to know one, and as soon as I started digging into the work of codependency, it didn't take long to see I showed many traits of it. It sounds like you pretty much have your mind made up that this isn't going to work for you, so maybe start digging into that a little bit as it may help you for yourself and it may help you in any future relationships you may enter.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

tephros said:


> My problem isn't pervasive enough to be called a personality disorder. It only appears to affect my functioning in romantic relationships. Maybe people are picking up on the criteria for preoccupation with ideal love and their false impression that I lack empathy, but even if they were right, it wouldn't qualify. I have a fairly neutral opinion of myself overall. I try to understand myself and why I fail or succeed, but I don't dwell on remorse or pride. And if I can't love my wife as she should be loved, it really would be better for everybody if it ended. No judgement of that is needed. What is needed is a reasonable plan of action to sort it out.
> 
> Your assumptions about how I feel about my son are false. When somebody gives incomplete information because the story is too complicated to convey in posts - don't fill in the blanks if you want to be helpful. Ask, or comment based upon what is actually said.
> 
> ...


The way you responded to me (and others) comes across as someone with a chip on his shoulder. If you know so much and everyone else here knows so little (not surprising considering 't_he story is too complicated to convey in posts_' Then don't blame people for making the most of what you give them and 'filling in the blanks' . You come across as condescending and boorish, what do you need from us? You seem to have made up your mind, you want to leave your wife, then do it, what are you looking for? Absolution?


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

You've identified a conflict in your mating, and are working on it in IC. As others have stated, this is what you ought to do and it may take time. There are situations we can help with("My spouse is cheating, should I leave?") but yours is one that isn't likely to get better outside of IC. You've asked us about leaving your marriage, but I think the answer is, resolve the conflict and then decide whether to leave. Your marriage has some good things going for it, and resolving the conflict might make it work. If it doesn't, you can leave then. OTOH if you leave now and then resolve the conflict, you may have regrets.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

What do you think you’ll find in another woman that your wife doesn’t have? What are you looking for?

I think you’re wanting/needing a new relationship high... it will wear off too, just like this has.

did you know arranged marriages in other countries has a lower divorce rate than marriages in America? I’m sure those stats are flawed, and maybe it’s commonplace for people in arranged marriages to see others outside the marriage, I don’t know.

All I’m suggesting is that you could probably learn to live your wife if you tried. What did you like about her in the beginning? She’s the same person.

I really think you’ll regret divorcing your wife. Know this: if she ever flips the switch and stops loving you, I can guarantee it will never flip back on for you. 

divorce her. It’s what you want to do, it’s what you will do.

a narcissist constantly thinks about me, me, me. They have no empathy for others. I didn’t say you were a narcissist, just that your post screams that attitude.

You seem content with forgetting your family and looking elsewhere for love.
How does that sound to you?

Moving on, starting a new life.... that’s forgetting them. That’s leaving them.

yeah, you can still support them financially.... would you seek 50/50 custody? Or do you think they’ll be happier with their mom full time.

my suggestion is leave then with their mom, since dating and work doesn’t leave much time for kids.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

I think your thinking regarding your marriage and the desire to leave it is more part of the pattern you are trying to escape than it is an actual attempt to break the pattern.

Outside looking in, but I think this has a lot of elements of managing your anxiety by controlling other people. Meaning, you need relationships so you’re not anxious about being alone, and now you’re in one and anxious about your patterns so you want to control the other person by making them go away.

All of this strikes me very much as you having an external locus of control, which is problematic on many fronts, but also a willingness to use relationships (and the other people involved) to placate your own feelings.

You may or may not need a divorce, but you certainly need some internal work to sort this all out. My advice would be to do the work first, because you may find that you have a distorted view of your own relationship and your own feelings. Focus there first.


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## secretsheriff (May 6, 2020)

This boils down to selfishness. You are simply selfish, and until you confront and change that, it really won't matter who you are with.

That said, I agree you should leave. So that your WIFE can find a man who loves her.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

I do not think you are neccessary selfish. I think you do not love your wife and never loved her. You even said that you didn’t like talking to her that much. You married someone you do not love, and then you brought two children into this relationship. You are in pickle now. 
this is tough one. But I agree with others than you really have to invest in figuring out yoursefl before you make any more of important decisions that have huge consequences.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Evinrude58 said:


> did you know arranged marriages in other countries has a lower divorce rate than marriages in America? I’m sure those stats are flawed, and maybe it’s commonplace for people in arranged marriages to see others outside the marriage, I don’t know.


Their divorce rate has not much to do with the love. In these countries the divorce is not as socially acceptable As it is in western world. And it will be particularly hard on woman. So they stay, not out of live but neccessity.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Any number of people in the U.S. and elsewhere who get married are not in love. They marry for other reasons. Sometimes that works and sometimes, like you, they decide at some point that they want out. Your wife deserves better so get a divorce and move on.


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## Oldtimer (May 25, 2018)

I’ll just say young man, “ don’t let the green grass fool you”. In my 69 years, I’ve been in and out of relationships only to find a wtf moment as I watched the biggest prize walk away with another man. No, not a cheating situation, but my thoughts that she was less than what I thought I deserved. Numerous “love” situations and a second marriage throughout my life. I’m happy with my wife and my life and nev have those thoughts now, but there was a time especially in my last marriage. Take another look at what you have, you might be looking in a lead mind when the gold is in your hand.


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## tephros (May 24, 2020)

Evinrude58 said:


> What do you think you’ll find in another woman that your wife doesn’t have? What are you looking for?


I listed 20 things in my other thread, not all essential. She's missing like 3 of the really important/essential ones. If I can't find somebody who hits all of the essentials, I'll just be single, or only date, hopefully. But actually I'm not sure if it can be boiled down to just a list. It'll be how I feel about somebody, while not feeling desperate for being in a relationship.



> ...
> 
> a narcissist constantly thinks about me, me, me. They have no empathy for others. I didn’t say you were a narcissist, just that your post screams that attitude.


You're not the only one, but I think you guys are wrong. People need to take care of their own needs when it comes to relationships - and part of that is investing in their partner which creates the illusion of not being selfish - but really one should want to do that. I have absolutely no desire to do that, at least not for her, because my mistake was getting with her in the first place. She's a wonderful person. Just don't think she's my wonderful person.
In contrast, I love doing things for my daughter because I love her more than anything.



> You seem content with forgetting your family and looking elsewhere for love.
> How does that sound to you?
> 
> Moving on, starting a new life.... that’s forgetting them. That’s leaving them.
> ...


No just leaving the relationship which I don't think can be repaired because I do not love her in that way. The hardest part of this is the kids for sure. The plan is 80/20 because I will live 2 hours away, but maybe during summers I could be the 80% parent and take all of my time off during those months and use a babysitter for when I have to work, but I will make the most out of those weekends while I'm the 20% parent. A relative of mine has issues due to her father abandoning her, so I talked to her about how to make them feel okay and loved. I need to prioritize making the weekends I have with them special. And always being clear that the relationship ending had nothing to do with them, and that I'll always make myself available for them when I can or they need me.



> my suggestion is leave then with their mom, since dating and work doesn’t leave much time for kids.


I'm sure she'll date too when she's ready. She has a well-paying job 3 days a week and I'll be paying for the kids to be in full-time daycare 5 days a week. She'll have time. Don't feel too sorry for her in that regard. The tragedy for her is that she says I was her dream guy. I wish she had been mine due to having kids with her, or that I had the strength to tell her she wasn't earlier. Then again, my kids are well worth this.




Oldtimer said:


> I’ll just say young man, “ don’t let the green grass fool you”. In my 69 years, I’ve been in and out of relationships only to find a wtf moment as I watched the biggest prize walk away with another man. No, not a cheating situation, but my thoughts that she was less than what I thought I deserved. Numerous “love” situations and a second marriage throughout my life. I’m happy with my wife and my life and nev have those thoughts now, but there was a time especially in my last marriage. Take another look at what you have, you might be looking in a lead mind when the gold is in your hand.


This is something I've been afraid of. She talked to her brother about us planning to separate, who is somebody in her family who really likes me, and his response was: "What? Is he gay?!" It was funny to me, and gives pause, but I just can't find the feelings to put in the work it would require to make it work. Maybe when we separate I'll realize what I've lost before it's too late. Or maybe we'll both be better off. Hopefully I won't kick myself, but I doubt it given how the relationship started.


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