# Still...after all this time.



## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

I am simply amazed by the continued use of marital problems as an excuse for cheating. But what is even more amazing is how many BS's buy into this idea.
We have here on TAM a large segment of WS's who will post pages and pages of excuses, all giving marital problems as reasons why they cheated. Anything from sexual incompatibility, lack of emotional connection/attention, to the BS's manners and habits, all seem to be excuses to cheat. Why do they feel this way, when virtually every single expert in the field say that this is definitely NOT the case? In a troubled marriage, the WS and BS are presented with 5 options. 1. End the marriage. 2. Work on resolving the issues together. 3. Work on resolving the issues, individually. 4. Endure the issues. 5. Cheat. Why is it that infidelity is considered, by some, the best option? I would like any and all WS's to come here and explain this idea. I understand that this is a very challenging question, but would think it would be very helpful to those posters who are reconciling to be able to better understand their actions, and why they feel as they do. After all, self-improvement is (or should be) the goal of every one here.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I don't get it either. Thankfully I never had this problem. But I can see how easy it is for many BS's to subscribe to the theory.

Last night hubby and I were having a long discussion about what he did and why. Over and over he said that I was very cold and distant in our marriage, I had moved forward and he hadn't, it was 'sexless', we were emotionally distant, etc.etc. Listening to this, it would have been VERY easy to say to myself, "Well, if I hadn't been all those things toward him he wouldn't have cheated". And maybe that's even true. BUT - what I also know is that 1) he was treating me the same way and I didn't cheat, 2) many other spouses in that situation don't cheat, 3) and he takes full responsibility for his choice to cheat. If he was trying to tell me that my actions caused him to cheat, he'd be out on his ass.

Maybe it takes a certain mindset on the part of the BS to refuse to allow what the WS says to make them feel guilty. It would be nice if we could figure it out.


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## So Sad Lady (Aug 31, 2012)

I think that the WS can justify anything in their head. Even if the BS is a perfect spouse (we all know, no one is perfect). But once someone decides to, and gives themselves permission to cheat...they can dig up every last bad thing about their partner to justify their actions in their own head. 

And then when they are caught! Assuming they feel remorse and shame - they don't just say, "Sorry, I was being selfish and not even thinking of you." They say, "Well, you did this, and you acted this way, and you made me feel this way...etc". Basically saying, "You made me do it." And sometimes, I think they actually believe that! 

The bottom line is, if someone cheats, it's their own selfish brain telling them that somehow they "deserve this"...They talk themselves into believing it. 

Its amazing what the human mind can do.


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

Bottom line, The cheating spouse is , Afraid to really look at themselves....


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Perhaps some of the braver WS's will come here to give some input? I especially would like Affaircare and Pidge, as I think they are the most honest and straightforward WS's on TAM.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Hope, the one thing I refused to do was buy into this idea that I was partly to blame.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

SSL, this is what I want to explore, why did the WS think that this was an exceptable idea?


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## wiigirl (Jun 14, 2012)

strugglinghusband said:


> Bottom line, The cheating spouse is , Afraid to really look at themselves....


:iagree:








_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

strugglinghusband said:


> Bottom line, The cheating spouse is , Afraid to really look at themselves....


Absolutely right, even the "remorseful", ones seem to be unable or unwilling to face this issue.


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## HurtinginTN (Feb 22, 2011)

OK, I'll bite. I got a Bill Clinton from a couple of different prostitutes about 2 years or so into my marriage. Also, I went to a few strip clubs and got a few lap dances. (Many wouldn't consider this cheating, but my wife sure does.) A year and a half or so ago, I went through a spell of a month or two where I frequented an area with available company during my lunch breaks. I purchased a few more Bill Clintons. One night, I stayed in a hotel and took one back to the room and had sex.

Reasons: None of it was justified. Cheating in any form is never justified. I have put a lot of thought into the "why". I'll explain what was going on in my head at the time.

When dating my wife, I had sensed something was up at one point. She was out and her journal was laying there. I peeked. There was a line that I haven't been able to get out of my head for 15 years. It is always there in the back of my mind, even now, just like it was still in front of me. "I wish I could find a man that I am strongly attracted to that treats me like "hurting" does. I want to see ____ again." ____ was the best man in my wedding. They both denied that anything had ever happened between them. She also had a fling with a couple of old boyfriends when we had a bumpy patch during dating. I never properly dealt with those issues. We got married a while later.

Sex was an issue from the beginning. Our marriage bed would probably earn a spot in the Guinness book for the coldest on record. Looking back, I am sure I am somewhat to blame for that. She has said that since I always "pressured" her for sex, she never felt free to give it. Every time I would make an advance and she would refuse, I would think about the other men from when we were dating. I built up a lot of bitterness and resentment.

I often will give folks walking on the road a ride. One day, I gave a lady a ride. I did not think she was a prostitute. She didn't look the part. When we got to where I was taking her, she mentioned that she could "do me a favor". I partook. My anger and bitterness over the lack of sex was justification in my mind at the moment. I actually thought that if anyone found out, they would understand because of our ice cold marriage bed.

The same flawed logic applied to the next one, except for the fact I knew what I was getting into when I asked that one if she wanted a ride. Another factor was the flawed logic of "What they don't know won't hurt them."

I believe the lure of hookers and strippers is more than just the physical aspect. Sure, I love boobies. I don't think there is anything in the world more beautiful than a woman's body. Watching strippers is pleasurable to the eye. But it is deeper than that. I had (have) a strong desire to feel wanted. I believe all men do. Strippers and hookers are masters at making men feel wanted. You know they just want the cash, but the attention somewhat fulfills that desire to feel wanted.

On the last round of indiscretion, my wife was having an emotional affair. That story is well documented on these pages, unfortunately. Before hers went physical, I had done the things mentioned in the first paragraph. I believe the wanting to feel wanted part was still a major factor. In this case, a healthy dose of revenge was probably involved as well. I never meant for her to find out. She never would have if I hadn't confessed several months ago. Part of my justification in my mind was that it was anonymous. They didn't know me and I didn't know them. That was far less serious than the hours she was spending playing online games with her boyfriend every night. 

So, to summarize my long answer, anger and bitterness were strong factors. We have 3 children, so I have always felt that divorce was not an option. I tried to work on making the marriage bed more warm. In my mind, I had two options. Live a sexless life or get some on the side.

"What they don't know won't hurt them" is a very bad thought process that I indulged in.

I hope this helps to give some insight.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

I think some people are simply so selfish that they cannot really wrap their brains around something being their fault. I mean, totally and completely their fault. They like to think of themselves as good people (or are at least interested in presenting a good image to others), so anything crappy they do must, naturally, be the fault of someone else. 

At least, that seems to be the issue with my husband.


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## tears (Jul 31, 2012)

One of the things that i learnt from therapy was that affairs are not a symptom of bad marriages. Its surprising that even Dr.Harley(His Needs,Her Needs) thinks that they are.

Cheaters know that their actions are inherently wrong, which is why there is a need for all the secrecy. Another thing is that when a man or a woman cheats, they don't think about their spouse till after the deed is done( I can vouch for this) even if they do think about their spouses, its often pushed to the recesses of their minds , which is why people go about feeling guilty. I think that people are aware of marital boundaries on a subconscious level but choose to ignore them, I did. There were many times when I realized that what I was doing wasn't correct but the combination of temptation flattery and anticipation just stops you from thinking with your rational brain.

Another thing that has been oversold to the society is the concept of happiness, and the fact that people should do anything to be happy or satisfy their needs.


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## HurtinginTN (Feb 22, 2011)

Rowan said:


> I think some people are simply so selfish that they cannot really wrap their brains around something being their fault. I mean, totally and completely their fault. They like to think of themselves as good people (or are at least interested in presenting a good image to others), so anything crappy they do must, naturally, be the fault of someone else.


I agree. I forgot to mention totally selfish in my earlier post. I did like to think of myself as a good person, even when I was doing horribly stupid and wrong actions. Placing the blame on my wife eased my sense of guilt.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

HurtinginTN said:


> "What they don't know won't hurt them" is a very bad thought process that I indulged in.


This is exactly what my husband thought. Our marriage sucked. He didn't want a divorce, he wanted us to be good again. But he thought it would take more time than he wanted to just wait, so he went looking for a little something on the side to tide himself over.

I asked him last night whether, if things had been different, and instead of continuing to indulge himself he stood up for himself and demanded that we get together and work on things, if he would have confessed what he had done up to whatever point he was at. He said no.


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

I can't really speak from experience but I can say that sexual incompatability is sure not an excuse but it does explain a whole lot. If you marry somebody who you know is HD and you know you are LD and you refuse to work on your problems and just ignore them - and you add to that young children...ya I can see how it can happen. 

Again not an excuse as you can choose to leave but....these things are not always black and white.


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## daggeredheart (Feb 21, 2012)

My WS talked in depth about guilt afterwards, how when he was conducting his EA -the thoughts of me simply didn't exist. It was like I was just erased from his mind during. When his contact would end for the day/night then he would be hit with guilt but not during the communication. I still have trouble wrapping my brain around that. 

He also said that the fact that we had a good marriage, that I wasn't doing anything _wrong_ added to his distress as to how he was deceiving me. He told our MC that we hadn't been "connecting" and she told him....."because you weren't responding to her attempts at connecting, you were turned toward the AP and couldn't see them and your computer addiction in general"------ 

Maybe more WS will add input- but as above poster said, Affairs don't always equal a bad marriage, they can happen in all kinds of marriages.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

daggeredheart said:


> My WS talked in depth about guilt afterwards, how when he was conducting his EA -the thoughts of me simply didn't exist. It was like I was just erased from his mind during. When his contact would end for the day/night then he would be hit with guilt but not during the communication. I still have trouble wrapping my brain around that.


Mine says the same thing. When he was in the middle of whatever acting out he was doing, he enjoyed it, but as soon as he came back to reality he felt guilty and would swear to himself never to do it again.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

HurtinginTN said:


> OK, I'll bite. I got a Bill Clinton from a couple of different prostitutes about 2 years or so into my marriage. Also, I went to a few strip clubs and got a few lap dances. (Many wouldn't consider this cheating, but my wife sure does.) A year and a half or so ago, I went through a spell of a month or two where I frequented an area with available company during my lunch breaks. I purchased a few more Bill Clintons. One night, I stayed in a hotel and took one back to the room and had sex.
> 
> Reasons: None of it was justified. Cheating in any form is never justified. I have put a lot of thought into the "why". I'll explain what was going on in my head at the time.
> 
> ...


My STBEH was rejecting me.

One counselor opined that he had Madonna/wh*&re complex. 

I didn't cheat. 

Perhaps your wife had an EA because she felt neglected or pressured into porn star sex or perhaps you, too have Madonna/Who*$re complex. 

My STBEH used to do the pressuring thing, too. Even though I told him it turned me off and I needed some romance, not just a let's do it and a wham bam thank you ma'am. 

Still he continued to pressure and it was always a quickie. 

With the OW, based on the emails and texts sent to me anonymously, he was wooing and romancing her non stop.

So he was capable of it. 

Anyway that is in part why I filed.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

HurtinginTN said:


> I agree. I forgot to mention totally selfish in my earlier post. I did like to think of myself as a good person, even when I was doing horribly stupid and wrong actions. Placing the blame on my wife eased my sense of guilt.


Wow, just wow, at least you are honest enough to admit that blameshifting eased your own guilt


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

daggeredheart said:


> My WS talked in depth about guilt afterwards, how when he was conducting his EA -the thoughts of me simply didn't exist. It was like I was just erased from his mind during. When his contact would end for the day/night then he would be hit with guilt but not during the communication. I still have trouble wrapping my brain around that.


My STBEH said the same thing, but I don't buy it. 

They know exactly what they're doing. 

As I have mentioned prior, among my STBEH's ever shifting excuses for cheating, one was a sense of male entitlement to cheat. 

That sense of entitlement makes the most sense to me and sounds the most honest to me.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Ok, my thoughts... Why BS’s buy into it. Probably because there is some legitimacy to what marriage issues they are complaining about and legitimacy that you, as their spouse, didn’t really address those issues. There will be some self-blame for ‘why didn’t I do this’ and thinking that maybe if you had, your spouse wouldn’t have cheated. That was a tough nut for me.... What I defaulted back to: I can not control whom my wayward wife likes and what actions she takes based on those emotions. That’s all hers.

Now, I also theorize that on the wayward side..... The only options there that gives you a sense of ‘getting your spouse back’ is the affair or divorce. And divorce is more complex and theoretically is a major life change for not only you, but your entire family. Divorce threatens the basics like shelter and money and family. So, the affair ‘looks’ better at first, particularly if you do not expect to be caught. So, they ‘get you back’ for whatever they believe is a problem in the marriage; Along with it goes feelings of entitlement, vindication, etc. How many of us heard: “I just wanted to be happy!” This also gets back to my first point; Chicken or egg? Marriage issues playing a role in the adultery or adultery and those feelings playing a part in creating marriage issues?


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## HurtinginTN (Feb 22, 2011)

Sara8 said:


> Perhaps your wife had an EA because she felt neglected or pressured into porn star sex or perhaps you, too have Madonna/Who*$re complex.


No, actually, my method was almost word for word from No More Mr. Nice Guy. That book fit me extremely well. I would spend an hour or so giving a full body massage (except for the off-limits areas), then brush against a boob, hoping I didn't get slapped. If I didn't, I'd move forward. The back rubs, etc. were almost nightly. The times I didn't get pushed away when approaching an "off-limits" area were about 1 or 2 times per month. I never really thought about that until reading it in the book. I was like, "Holy Cow! This author has been spying on my bedroom!" That added immensely to the bitterness and anger. I told myself often, "Any other woman would be raring to go after all this pampering." 



Sara8 said:


> So he was capable of it.


Yeah, I saw several texts, etc. between the two of them. She was quite capable of lots of things she refused to give to me.

Again, I am not blaming her. My decision was my fault. My selfish, horrible, stupid decision.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Racer said:


> How many of us heard: “I just wanted to be happy!” This also gets back to my first point; Chicken or egg? Marriage issues playing a role in the adultery or adultery and those feelings playing a part in creating marriage issues?


Good question.

I think the problems start when the cheating spouse forms the intention to cheat. That then leads to an emotional withdrawal and nitpicking on the wayward's side. 

Then the soon to be BS starts withdrawing and this fuels the Waywards intent to cheat. 

And, then the ugly viscious circle begins.


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## Falene (Dec 31, 2011)

HurtinginTN: Thank you so much for your honesty and insight. I am glad you are on TAM.

...

I am one of the betrayed spouses that really got caught up on the "why" of it all.

My husband's "why" is that I had checked out of the marriage and he is dead on, I did. Anyone would have. Of course, that doesn't explain the fact I didn't cheat on him does it?

As I have gone along this nine month journey I have learned that the why is a simple decision of doing what someone wants to do. He wanted to cheat. I didn't. We both did what we wanted to do.

I am over the why and I think that BSs give way too much power to the why as if it will provide an answer that can cure the pain or at least give us an action plan that will improve things. It does not.

I took his why and made an action plan around it and through my utter devastation I did the abolsutely best I could do to answer his why and address his needs that I wasn't meeting that caused him to cheat on me. Don't get me wrong, I do NOT feel it was my fault or that I had it coming. I had come to the concusion I loved my husband and that I wanted my marriage to work. So I worked my arse off.

Well, the why started a chain of events that kept me crazy for nine solid months. It finally all came to a head and now that I truly know and I do mean truly, that he does not deserve me or is even capable of loving me in a way that provides me with anything to work on, I can finally move on.

Beware of the why. Give it nothing. Feed it naught. There isn't any why other than they wanted to cheat on you.


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## So Sad Lady (Aug 31, 2012)

Badblood said:


> SSL, this is what I want to explore, why did the WS think that this was an exceptable idea?


In my H's case, he picked up the phone, texted a girl he used to work with, joked around about how he'd like t*tty shots a few times, and then bam. She sent them. From there it went to full on sexting, with vague plans to hook up in the future. 

He ended it two days before I found out. He said he ended it because he realized how wrong it was, and how stupid it was - that he was putting all of this effort into sneaking around when he knew he had a wife that he should be working on things with. 

When I asked him the questions – what were you thinking of – about me? Especially when I was sitting there in the next room! He said at first he didn’t really think about it. He didn’t think that what he did was actually “cheating” because there was no physical hook up. He didn’t look at it that way even until a week or two after d-day. He had boiled it down to bad behavior, and he knew I’d be “mad” if I found out. But he didn’t think it would devastate me the way it did. 

He did say he was being selfish. He wanted to have someone tell him they wanted him, he wanted to hear that he is still good looking and sexy and desirable. 

So, I don’t know. Selfishness, yes. Blaming me for lack of sex, yes. Minimizing what it was, yes. 

Using those three justifications, he was able to put me aside and focus on the "task at hand". Pun intended.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

Falene;1108359 There isn't any why other than they wanted to cheat on you.[/QUOTE said:


> That's it right there. At the end of it all, they wanted to do it, and they were too selfish to stop themselves.
> 
> I think a lot of people try to focus on the reasons in the background, because this is a painful realization. That you are capable of such despicable behaviour if you are the ws, or that you chose someone who is, if you are a bs, and to compound it, that you are choosing to stay with such a person if you attempt R.


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## So Sad Lady (Aug 31, 2012)

SadandAngry said:


> That's it right there. At the end of it all, they wanted to do it, and they were too selfish to stop themselves.
> 
> I think a lot of people try to focus on the reasons in the background, because this is a painful realization. That you are capable of such despicable behaviour if you are the ws, or that you chose someone who is, if you are a bs, and to compound it, that you are choosing to stay with such a person if you attempt R.


Probably very true, SadandAngry. I think I look for justification in my own head as to why I'm staying with someone that hurt me so bad. 

Some days it works, others, not so much.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Racer said:


> Ok, my thoughts... Why BS’s buy into it. Probably because there is some legitimacy to what marriage issues they are complaining about and legitimacy that you, as their spouse, didn’t really address those issues. There will be some self-blame for ‘why didn’t I do this’ and thinking that maybe if you had, your spouse wouldn’t have cheated. That was a tough nut for me.... What I defaulted back to: I can not control whom my wayward wife likes and what actions she takes based on those emotions. That’s all hers.
> 
> Now, I also theorize that on the wayward side..... The only options there that gives you a sense of ‘getting your spouse back’ is the affair or divorce. And divorce is more complex and theoretically is a major life change for not only you, but your entire family. Divorce threatens the basics like shelter and money and family. So, the affair ‘looks’ better at first, particularly if you do not expect to be caught. So, they ‘get you back’ for whatever they believe is a problem in the marriage; Along with it goes feelings of entitlement, vindication, etc. How many of us heard: “I just wanted to be happy!” This also gets back to my first point; Chicken or egg? Marriage issues playing a role in the adultery or adultery and those feelings playing a part in creating marriage issues?


Racer, you make some good points. I think that in the cases of bad marriages, the BS does feel guilty about the marriage issues. Plus some BS's are so desperate to reclaim their marriage and have such low self-esteem that they will sometimes shoulder most of the blame for their spouses cheating , just to reconcile. We see this all of the time here on TAM. 
Some WS's even convince their BS's that the affair will somehow make the marriage stronger? I don't know how that would be, but they do it.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Plus, most waywards have HUGE senses of entitlement. They almost always start their threads saying how they were good people before the affair and, but for their spouses bad behavior , would still be the same loyal, loving spouses that they were in the beginning. Blame shifting and a sense of entitlement go together like peas and carrots.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Apparently not many WS's have the courage to speak about this issue.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

tears said:


> One of the things that i learnt from therapy was that affairs are not a symptom of bad marriages. Its surprising that even Dr.Harley(His Needs,Her Needs) thinks that they are.
> 
> Cheaters know that their actions are inherently wrong, which is why there is a need for all the secrecy. Another thing is that when a man or a woman cheats, they don't think about their spouse till after the deed is done( I can vouch for this) even if they do think about their spouses, its often pushed to the recesses of their minds , which is why people go about feeling guilty. I think that people are aware of marital boundaries on a subconscious level but choose to ignore them, I did. There were many times when I realized that what I was doing wasn't correct but the combination of temptation flattery and anticipation just stops you from thinking with your rational brain.
> 
> Another thing that has been oversold to the society is the concept of happiness, and the fact that people should do anything to be happy or satisfy their needs.


Tears, thank you for having the guts to come here. BTW I don't think Dr. Harley thinks that marital issues are the causes of cheating, He thinks that we are ALL hard-wired to cheat.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Badblood said:


> Tears, thank you for having the guts to come here. BTW I don't think Dr. Harley thinks that marital issues are the causes of cheating, He thinks that we are ALL hard-wired to cheat.


And yet, if you read his book Surviving an Affair, it clearly says that the affair is the result of the BS not meeting the WS's important emotional needs. He states that one of the reasons the BH in his example couple chose to reconcile was because he knew his wife's affair was his fault - he'd been working too much and hadn't met her needs for affection and conversation. 

I really like a lot of Harley's concepts, but really struggled with that. If you read the articles and Q&A columns on his website and the posts in the forums there, you'll find a much heavier focus on the WS having poor boundaries. It was actually a little surprising to read SaA and discover that it doesn't really mention poor boundaries, and in fact really _does_ blame the BS.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Badblood said:


> Some WS's even convince their BS's that the affair will somehow make the marriage stronger? I don't know how that would be, but they do it.


lol... I shamefully & proudly raise my hand. She didn’t convince me of this, I did it to myself. So... DD#2 to MC; “Not Just Friends” & NMMNG became my bibles. NJF gives examples of healthier marriages as a result. NMMNG helps you find your balls / strength and gives you a lot of new perspectives to help deal with it all and find what you need from within. Now add to this a crazy boyhood since of nobility like the Charge of the Light Brigade... So, I still have my marriage; It was well fought. And I am both happier and sadder than I’ve been before about it.... There’s something calming about throwing out reason and just going on faith while knowing you can deal with whatever the fates throw your way.

“Into the valley of death rode the six hundred.”
The Charge of the Light Brigade


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

I doubt very much if anybody asked the "Six Hundred ", if they wanted to die. The "nobility",of the Charge was probably lost on the next of kin. I'm a former Professional Soldier (Marine) and all that noble sacrifice crap is exactly that.....crap. After he was wounded, one of my Marines told me that he didn't think it could happen to him. That is usually the mindset of most soldiers, they always think that they will be one of the ones to survive. You can keep the "nobility", and faith, I'll take reason and intelligence, anyday.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

BTW, If you let "faith", guide your life, then you deserve what you get. Good...and bad. The reason we humans are superior is because of our brains, so it behoves us to try to use them.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Badblood said:


> BTW, If you let "faith", guide your life, then you deserve what you get. Good...and bad. The reason we humans are superior is because of our brains, so it behoves us to try to use them.


There is no 'try'. If people actually USED their brains, can you imagine what a different world this would be??


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## HurtinginTN (Feb 22, 2011)

Badblood said:


> Apparently not many WS's have the courage to speak about this issue.


I don't believe it is a lack of courage. It is mostly a lack of WS's on the site. I didn't search out this site when I was a WS. I searched out this site when I became a BS. My wayward ways were known only to me (and the prostitutes, of course) until well after I was a BS. 

So, I believe the limited responses from WS is more of a function of 95% or so (my uneducated guess) of people reading your question are BS only.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Tell me about it.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

I don't think so, Tenn. I don't think that most WS's have the intestinal fortitude to examine their true motives. This is why there are so many failed attempts at R, or false R.


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## HurtinginTN (Feb 22, 2011)

Yes, that is a factor as well. It took me a long time to face what I did. It was much easier to just hide it away and pretend it hadn't happened. I was never "caught", so it would have been easy to keep it hidden. However, I feel much more free being able to admit it. Keeping things hidden just eats you alive. It was scary, though. I thought I would be completely ostracized.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Badblood said:


> I doubt very much if anybody asked the "Six Hundred ", if they wanted to die. The "nobility",of the Charge was probably lost on the next of kin. I'm a former Professional Soldier (Marine) and all that noble sacrifice crap is exactly that.....crap. After he was wounded, one of my Marines told me that he didn't think it could happen to him. That is usually the mindset of most soldiers, they always think that they will be one of the ones to survive. You can keep the "nobility", and faith, I'll take reason and intelligence, anyday.


I honestly get your point. Nobody thinks it will happen to them. Yet, you joined knowing you might end up in that world of crap. That was a very conscience choice to put yourself in that position. You buried the idea that the choice could mean the death of you... Is that not “Faith” in yourself and your lot in life? I do not doubt you are intelligent. You are probably also confident enough that when the world goes to crap around you, you will react using intelligence and gut instinct to pull through. Even if you question why you did it, you can’t change that you did do it and came out the other side... 

Now if you are one of the unlucky six-hundred and survive... How do you think they felt about it? I’d bet proud and ashamed are intermingled with thoughts of what they just went through. I wasn’t thinking ‘noble sacrifice’ when I made the choice to R. I didn’t think it’d end me or the marriage, though I recognized risk was involved. I had ‘faith’ in myself that I’d be a survivor. Yet... I don’t feel like “I’ve won or lost”... just that I’ve lived and learned. And for me, divorce felt more like ‘giving up’... I still have that option available.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Badblood said:


> BTW, If you let "faith", guide your life, then you deserve what you get. Good...and bad. The reason we humans are superior is because of our brains, so it behoves us to try to use them.


And yes, I deserve it all... Good and bad. You won't find me whining about it or looking for pity. And when your intelligence leads you astray or misses something? Bad luck? or just as deserved as mine? 

When reason is torn and divided, I just go with my gut and don't worry about it. I have faith in myself to get to the other side.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

This is becoming a T/J, but I will say this, I've never known a bullet or IED that differentiated between the Faithful and the unfaithful. You Racer, are one of those who always are surprised that they got hit. Good luck to you , anyways.


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## sayjellybeans (Jun 25, 2012)

WW here. 
Other WS's may not be weighing in because there may not be a lot for them to add. I don't think what I have come up with will be enlightening, but I'll contribute, if only to give one more perspective. 

Selfishness is the main reason I cheated. Next in line would be my self esteem and boundary issues. 

In the wake of discovery, I did not put any of the blame on my BS for my choices. He did ask me what OM gave me that he didn't, and I was as forthright as my still foggy brain allowed. And in retrospect, I'm not sure those things, such as acceptance and a desire to spend quality time, would have held up outside the fantasy realm. 
Whilst BS was still in limbo, discussions of our pre-DDay relationship would often turn ugly because he felt I was blame shifting. And at times I was because I did hate the fact that our world was turned upside-down all because of my sh!ttiness. But, for the most part, I steered clear of laying blame elsewhere for my A. No one twisted my arm. 

I had a mediocre, but at times fulfilling marriage. One that I never considered leaving until I became close with OM. In fact, I was the catalyst for every discussion and plan to keep us close or improve our relationship, knowing that when the kids left, all we would have is each other. These attempts were met occasionally with understanding and agreement, but no follow-through, and others with outright complacency. Of course I was blind to many of my own negative contributions until too late. I'm saying all this to say that I wasn't even in a place to consider leaving vs cheating. 

My A was very brief and OM and I had not started NC at DDay, but we knew we could not continue or things would get even more out of line, and I didn't want to break up my family, and he was supposedly too religious to continue. Yeah, I know, a crock of bullshyte from both parties considering that I did break up my family and a religious guy living that life would not go after a married woman. And obviously, I didn't think I would get caught. 

For a while, I was very puzzled as to the real reasons I cheated. Selfishness was obvious, but I thought there had to be more inasmuch as the path of destruction my actions caused was wide and deep. For my BS, he doesn't care why I betrayed him. I guess it might have mattered to him if he had wanted to try to R. It does matter to me though, and I'm still in IC trying to work through these issues. 

I'm not accounting for severe emotional or psychological difficulties, but I think the reasons these things happen are simple, base. I don't know all the real reasons out there for infidelity, but I'm guessing the list is very short.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Badblood said:


> I don't think so, Tenn. I don't think that most WS's have the intestinal fortitude to examine their true motives. This is why there are so many failed attempts at R, or false R.


That's the real problem becuase it's an obvious requirement to any succesful R, only it's not limited to WSs. It's human thing. Most people are ill equiped to self examination, most people cant become aware of themselves even if the try. They cope ****ting the blame elsewere, downplaying, avioding... whatever. It doesn't limit to infidelity either. Just the way most of us are built.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Sayjellybeans, I would like to thank you for your very honest post. It took courage to admit those things and I applaud you for it.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Acabado said:


> That's the real problem becuase it's an obvious requirement to any succesful R, only it's not limited to WSs. It's human thing. Most people are ill equiped to self examination, most people cant become aware of themselves even if the try. They cope ****ting the blame elsewere, downplaying, avioding... whatever. It doesn't limit to infidelity either. Just the way most of us are built.


IDK, Acabado, I was raised to accept responsibility for all of my actions, and do not knowingly duck my comeuppances.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

What I say is I dont know, in case were me who screwed up things so royaly, if I posess the tools to look inward, to become self aware of my weakness, to reach out accurate conclusions.. It goes beyond accepting responsability. You can do it but still get stuck after this. How many of us BS can say with certaincy we would be those who tend to rugsweep the whole thing? I really don't know.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> I don't get it either. Thankfully I never had this problem. But I can see how easy it is for many BS's to subscribe to the theory.
> 
> Last night hubby and I were having a long discussion about what he did and why. Over and over he said that I was very cold and distant in our marriage, I had moved forward and he hadn't, it was 'sexless', we were emotionally distant, etc.etc. Listening to this, it would have been VERY easy to say to myself, "Well, if I hadn't been all those things toward him he wouldn't have cheated". And maybe that's even true. BUT - what I also know is that 1) he was treating me the same way and I didn't cheat, 2) many other spouses in that situation don't cheat, 3) and he takes full responsibility for his choice to cheat. If he was trying to tell me that my actions caused him to cheat, he'd be out on his ass.
> 
> Maybe it takes a certain mindset on the part of the BS to refuse to allow what the WS says to make them feel guilty. It would be nice if we could figure it out.


ahh Is it that the WS knows what it feels like to be cheated on? They know what to look for in a person who does not cheat? They go after this since that person will not cheat on them? The WS knows the BS will not have a clue what is going on if they would ever want to return to cheating? Hmmm.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Thank you sayjellybeans.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> My STBEH was rejecting me.
> 
> One counselor opined that he had Madonna/wh*&re complex.
> 
> ...


Sorry. Sooo sad.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> *Perhaps your wife had an EA because she felt neglected or pressured into porn star sex or perhaps you, too have Madonna/Who*$re complex.*


Translates to it was your fault. 



> My STBEH used to do the pressuring thing, too. Even though I told him it turned me off and I needed some romance, not just a let's do it and a wham bam thank you ma'am.
> 
> Still he continued to pressure and it was always a quickie.
> 
> ...


I can't understand this thing, how is it that your STBEH's affair wasn't your fault and HurtingTN's wife's EA was his fault?


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

BjornFree said:


> Translates to it was your fault.
> 
> 
> 
> I can't understand this thing, how is it that your STBEH's affair wasn't your fault and HurtingTN's wife's EA was his fault?


At the bottom of my reply, Bjorn I will repost hurting in TNs original post. 


Based on that, unless I am daft, he only SURMISES she had an emotional affair BEFORE THEY WERE MARRIED. 

So, if it's prior to marriage it isn't an affair and it was not a proven affair. 

Later Hurting in tNs notes that after his third round of cheating WHILE MARRIED..........
HIS WIFE IS HAVING AN EA. 

My point then is that she was likely having an EA because if he was already SERIAL cheating, there is NO DOUBT HE WAS NEGLECTING HER. 

And thus, I am saying it WAS his fault, and he seems to be accepting blame, too. And that's a good thing, IMO.

Here's hurting in TNs' original post below in bold:

*OK, I'll bite. I got a Bill Clinton from a couple of different prostitutes about 2 years or so into my marriage. Also, I went to a few strip clubs and got a few lap dances. (Many wouldn't consider this cheating, but my wife sure does.) A year and a half or so ago, I went through a spell of a month or two where I frequented an area with available company during my lunch breaks. I purchased a few more Bill Clintons. One night, I stayed in a hotel and took one back to the room and had sex.

Reasons: None of it was justified. Cheating in any form is never justified. I have put a lot of thought into the "why". I'll explain what was going on in my head at the time.

When dating my wife, I had sensed something was up at one point. She was out and her journal was laying there. I peeked. There was a line that I haven't been able to get out of my head for 15 years. It is always there in the back of my mind, even now, just like it was still in front of me. "I wish I could find a man that I am strongly attracted to that treats me like "hurting" does. I want to see ____ again." ____ was the best man in my wedding. They both denied that anything had ever happened between them. She also had a fling with a couple of old boyfriends when we had a bumpy patch during dating. I never properly dealt with those issues. We got married a while later.

Sex was an issue from the beginning. Our marriage bed would probably earn a spot in the Guinness book for the coldest on record. Looking back, I am sure I am somewhat to blame for that. She has said that since I always "pressured" her for sex, she never felt free to give it. Every time I would make an advance and she would refuse, I would think about the other men from when we were dating. I built up a lot of bitterness and resentment.

I often will give folks walking on the road a ride. One day, I gave a lady a ride. I did not think she was a prostitute. She didn't look the part. When we got to where I was taking her, she mentioned that she could "do me a favor". I partook. My anger and bitterness over the lack of sex was justification in my mind at the moment. I actually thought that if anyone found out, they would understand because of our ice cold marriage bed.

The same flawed logic applied to the next one, except for the fact I knew what I was getting into when I asked that one if she wanted a ride. Another factor was the flawed logic of "What they don't know won't hurt them."

I believe the lure of hookers and strippers is more than just the physical aspect. Sure, I love boobies. I don't think there is anything in the world more beautiful than a woman's body. Watching strippers is pleasurable to the eye. But it is deeper than that. I had (have) a strong desire to feel wanted. I believe all men do. Strippers and hookers are masters at making men feel wanted. You know they just want the cash, but the attention somewhat fulfills that desire to feel wanted.

On the last round of indiscretion, my wife was having an emotional affair. That story is well documented on these pages, unfortunately. Before hers went physical, I had done the things mentioned in the first paragraph. I believe the wanting to feel wanted part was still a major factor. In this case, a healthy dose of revenge was probably involved as well. I never meant for her to find out. She never would have if I hadn't confessed several months ago. Part of my justification in my mind was that it was anonymous. They didn't know me and I didn't know them. That was far less serious than the hours she was spending playing online games with her boyfriend every night. 

So, to summarize my long answer, anger and bitterness were strong factors. We have 3 children, so I have always felt that divorce was not an option. I tried to work on making the marriage bed more warm. In my mind, I had two options. Live a sexless life or get some on the side.

"What they don't know won't hurt them" is a very bad thought process that I indulged in.

I hope this helps to give some insight.*


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

I understand that he cheated first, but I don't think that justifies the wife having an affair physical or otherwise. i think that they should be treated as two separate entities. And the part of Him neglecting her, this has been the excuse that women have been using for a long long time. Each of us is responsible for the choices and decisions we take. We can't be driven towards something if we don't decide to do it in the first place


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

BjornFree said:


> I understand that he cheated first, but I don't think that justifies the wife having an affair physical or otherwise. i think that they should be treated as two separate entities. And the part of Him neglecting her, this has been the excuse that women have been using for a long long time. Each of us is responsible for the choices and decisions we take. We can't be driven towards something if we don't decide to do it in the first place


I agree she is wrong, too. 

They are goth wrong. And, now it's a disaster. 

Still, if he was a serial cheater he has to own that there was some serious neglect going on. Neglect out of proportion than a guy going to a football game. 

I think he has. I actually respect his honesty.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Badblood~

You called me out so I'm going to reply to your thread, but you should know a couple things: 

1) My Dear Hubby is EXTREMELY ill. We've been to the hospital twice in the last couple weeks; he can not breathe and is taking beaucoup medications round the clock; and I have to try to take care of him AND run the household AND work to earn enough money to pay the bills AND I'm buried in paperwork to try to pay all these medical bills. So the fact that I didn't immediately reply does not in any way mean I don't have courage. It means that my Dear Hubby is so much higher on my priority list that I did not have motivation to reply. But now I'm going to take time to reply to you, because this inaccurate assumption sort of leads me to my next point. 

2) For the life of me, I can not fathom why threads like this are allowed to continue without some moderation, except for the general belief here at TAM that WSs are the scum of the earth and lower than mud on the underbelly of a worm. As you can tell this makes me angry, and here's why: not all WSs are a$$hats! Oh some are for sure--just as there are some BSs who were controlling, abusive a$$hats too. But if I came on and made a thread basically whining about how BSs never take responsibility for their issues and blameshift onto their WS so they don't have to look at how they contributed...I would be run out of here ON A RAIL!! Yet time after time, BSs come on here and make a thread that turns into "rag on WSs" and it's tolerated. I don't mean this mean, but you are better than this. If you don't want WSs to think of you disparagingly, why do you think it is okay to start and continue a thread like this? 


Here's the god's honest truth. I am not a perfect person. I screw up and sometimes...I screw up royally. I had a hard life--as a kid I was beaten by my mom on a daily basis, so that completely messed up what I thought "love" meant...cuz the person who was supposed to "love" me, hurt me. Now, I'm a grown lady now, and I am 100% personally responsible for what I do--the good and the bad. What happened back then is not "to blame" but it was like a foundation. I grew up and married a physically and verbally abusive man in my first marriage because that's what I thought love was. Then I got old enough to realize that WASN'T what love was and I got my a$$ into therapy. I went to therapy for like five years, and I learned and grew a lot... but you know what? Therapy doesn't "cure" a person and I still wasn't perfect!

For my second marriage I did a LOT better job picking someone, and he is a great man whom I adore and admire. But you know what? As much as I talk him up here and think positively of him, he's not perfect either. He tends to get complacent. He is VERY introverted. He is a flipping capital T Thinker. These were some things we talked about before we got married but I didn't realize HOW introverted he was...or how "logical". So I can't speak for other WS's, but I didn't sit down and think: 

_Okay...so I'm rather dissatisfied and I don't give a rat's a$$ about my spouse or my morals or the family. I'll do ANYTHING to appease myself and make myself happy, including sell them down the river. I'm entitled to that, no matter who I hurt_." and I would bet you dollars to donuts very few WSs thought something like that. What happened *for me* was that before my affair I was a very dependable, honest, friendly, moral person. I had a spiritual life and I cared about my husband and my family. So if you ask me "WHY did you do this?" at the moment it was occurring I could not have told you. It took me probably a year of some fairly decent looking at myself to really get to the heart of it. 

Here what happened in my case: Dear Hubby and I have 7 kids and we LOVE children; we both would have had more if we could. We got pregnant and I had a miscarriage. This was sad for both of us; however, my way of dealing with the grief was to reach out for him, and his way of dealing with the grief was to go VERY internal, think about it and deal with it, and at the conclusion come back out. I did not realize that was his grieving style and thought he was withdrawing right when I needed him. Then we found out we were medically unable to have any more children (just due to menopause and andropause) and that was more grief. AND there were definite changes due to those -pauses that changed libido and whatnot, so that I was feeling pretty much like "Oh we can't have kids and now our sex life is over" and nothing personal but I wasn't old! I didn't want to have no more sex life!! Still I didn't think "Okay I'll go find some other man" because I loved and wanted my husband to comfort me!! Nope, he was playing WoW a lot and I like WoW but not like he does  so I decided to do a game I liked while he did a game he liked. That makes sense right? It's healthy to have independent interests right?

*THERE WAS MY FATAL ERROR* and I didn't even see it for like a year!! I turned to somewhere else to get needs met of attention, fun, conversation, etc. He had "his game" which kind of excluded me, and I had "my game" which kind of excluded him. 

Still not an affair though, but what I did was really work on that game, put some time and hours and effort into it, I got really good and Yeah of course...others noticed. They'd mention I was good or want me to play with their team, so I got some attention and kudos... still not an affair though. Not even close, except that it WAS!! It was like the perfect setup and I didn't know it, because eventually one specific male person noticed ME and pursued ME and when he said to me that I was interesting and smart and wonderful when my own husband wouldn't even look at me, it was like being hit with a truck! I was NOT ready, didn't have a defense up and didn't have boundaries in place to protect myself or my hubby or the family. 

Now you know the rest. I did not have a physical affair but it was online and cybersexual. My Dear Hubby suspected for a while but didn't sort of stand up to me. Then he wrote to the OM and told him, "She is married and I do not intend to go out without a fight." And at first I was mad that he didn't even want me before and now he was going to interfere...but I went to go get mad at him and you know what? I SAW him. I saw his face and his eyes and the pain, and I thought "WHAT am I doing?" and I knew it was wrong and I knew I just had to stop. NC ever since. 

So now you know the story--and here's the part where I think all the crusading BSs go off track. Am I saying it was Dear Hubby's fault that I had an affair? HECK NO!! Am I saying he made me or "if only he'd do this I wouldn't have done that?" HECK NO!! But my affair didn't happen in a vacuum either. I had a tough start, an abusive and unfaithful first marriage, and I had some issues I had to address...but he wasn't Saint Perfect either, being a great spouse, and I was Cruella DeVille!! I do not look at what HE did as having anything to do with my choice to have an affair, but it was like an environment that lead to vulnerability--and I bet he was just as vulnerable as I was!! 

Thus, to all you BSs who just do not get it why WSs use marital problems as an excuse to cheat...I think you have it backward. I did not say "I have marital problems and therefore the way I am going to address that is to cheat." I made some assumptions (lower libido = rejecting me; less talking = rejecting me; thinking through grief = rejecting me) and that was mistake #1 because they were not true but I thought they were. Then I made some unwise but still moral choices (I'll do ABC while he does XYZ and that's healthy) and that was mistake #2 because it wasn't healthy. And then I left myself open to positive connection with a member of the opposite sex, and that was mistake #3. And then I continued it and that was the ultimate mistake. 

But if you ask me why, it's not because I am the dirt on the shoe of a bug, or some morally-depraved, mentally ill, entitled princess! Just like any human being I had some personal weaknesses that I needed to address sure. But do you suppose if I went to counseling and fix up my grief over the miscarriage, and grieved for not being able to have kids, and got past the mid-life crisis stuff and realized life wasn't over...and I came back to the EXACT SAME MARRIAGE, that it would have been just fine and healthy? *HECK NO!!!* Let me say that again: HECK NO!! If I had done all the work on myself and was perfectly healthy and intimately wise and a great spouse, and my Dear Hubby was still withdrawn, not speaking to me, just playing his game and no other interaction, then eventually the marriage would have still died. 

Does that make sense? 

And BTW, I may or may not have the time to write like this again because frankly as I mentioned before, my Dear Hubby is EXTREMELY ill. So a) if I'm cranky it's partly due to lack of sleep and partly due to being tired of being treated like this ... and b) if I do not get the chance to write again, here's what I would request: for once, rather than blaming the other guy in your marriage--even if s/he was a cheater and has the scarlet A emblazoned on their chest now--look at your own self. LOOK at when or if you said harsh words, and don't come up with reasons or explanations for the harsh words. You just DID It. LOOK for the times you were distant or ignored your spouse. LOOK at the times you did something so you could hurt them. LOOK at the times you tried to manipulate them or make them do what you wanted. UH UH don't point the finger.... I don't care if you are the WS or the BS or if they did it first or nuthin! If you did it, then you are responsible for choosing that and you have to deal with it. Period. Stop saying looking at your spouse or ex or soon-to-be-ex. LOOK AT YOURSELF ONLY.


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

Go to a cheater's board. My oh my what tales you'll read. And not a nano-ounce of remorse/regret


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Thank you, Affaircare, for articulating so beautifully what, I think, many former WS's feel but have grown weary of trying to express here on TAM. As anyone who attempts reconciliation knows, it requires a tremendous amount of love, time, energy and patience. It is an all-consuming effort on the part of the WS and BS if there is to be any chance of a successful reconciliation. B1 and I know the lengths and efforts that we are both going to in an attempt to repair our broken marriage. It has not been easy, but it has been soooooooo worth it for both of us. Trying to convince others of my remorse, sincerity and good intentions, who will remain unswayed, requires time and energy that I feel would be better spent working on myself and on my marriage. I want to be the best wife and mother that I can be. So, I have chosen to surround myself with people who offer positive energy, encouragement and inspiration to our reconciliation effort rather than those who continuously attempt to bring me down. 

So, once again, Affaircare, thank you from the bottom of my heart for your post. It was very generous of you to take the time to respond in light of your husband's current health crises. You and Dear Hubby remain in our prayers. 

Take care,
EI
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Affaircare said:


> Badblood~
> 
> You called me out so I'm going to reply to your thread, but you should know a couple things:
> 
> ...


Affaircare, I am so sorry for your husband's illness, and feel that you really didn't need to post. I would have understood. I am grateful for your answer and understand what you are saying, and understand that we all enter marriage with our own baggage, and sometimes this baggage has a negative influence on how we handle marital problems.
For the record, I have never called a WS any of those names, in that, at least , you are projecting. Take good care of your family and come back and we can talk later, when you are able to do so. My thoughts and prayers are with you. BTW, I would NEVER have asked you to post, had I known your situation. I'm very sorry for intruding.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Empty Inside said:


> Thank you, Affaircare, for articulating so beautifully what, I think, many former WS's feel but have grown weary of trying to express here on TAM. As anyone who attempts reconciliation knows, it requires a tremendous amount of love, time, energy and patience. It is an all-consuming effort on the part of the WS and BS if there is to be any chance of a successful reconciliation. B1 and I know the lengths and efforts that we are both going to in an attempt to repair our broken marriage. It has not been easy, but it has been soooooooo worth it for both of us. Trying to convince others of my remorse, sincerity and good intentions, who will remain unswayed, requires time and energy that I feel would be better spent working on myself and on my marriage. I want to be the best wife and mother that I can be. So, I have chosen to surround myself with people who offer positive energy, encouragement and inspiration to our reconciliation effort rather than those who continuously attempt to bring me down.
> 
> So, once again, Affaircare, thank you from the bottom of my heart for your post. It was very generous of you to take the time to respond in light of your husband's current health crises. You and Dear Hubby remain in our prayers.
> 
> ...


Perhaps, EI, I and others would be more convinced of your sincerity, if your posts dealt more with your own issues and failings and less a litany of B1's. I have read a number of your posts. They always start out with a few sentences paying lip-service to accountability, then go on for paragraphs about B1's failings as a husband and your perceptions of them, and how you felt your marriage was over, etc. In other words, excuses. I have never heard of an 18 month exit affair, have you? I truly feel that you have convinced B1 that he is partly to blame for your affair, and do not see where you have done anything to show the contrary. In most of your posts you cite HIS issues as reasons for YOUR behavior. I agree with AC, in that the affair didn't happen in a vacuum, but it was your issues and preceptions that caused the affair, and NOT anything B1 did or did not do. I don't know about other posters, but I would be very happy if you and B1 are able to reconcile, but a true reconciliation, based on honesty, love and mutual respect. This can only happen when you are able to examine your own motives and actions, and truly refuse to put one particle of blame onto B1's shoulders. Think of this. Is it really fair for him to have to work through your cheating, AND feel that he was partially at fault for it?


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

EI, I do not now, nor have I ever thought you were a bad person. Much of what you are doing is good, but I feel that you are still very much afraid of facing your own issues. It's a tough thing to do, I know... it was tough for me, too.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

walkonmars said:


> Go to a cheater's board. My oh my what tales you'll read. And not a nano-ounce of remorse/regret


Walkonmars, I disagree, I feel that both Affaircare and EI are very remorseful. I have never thought otherwise.


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## wildhawke (Sep 29, 2012)

When I found out about my W's affairs, the first thing she did was blame me. She even managed to convince the MC that I should accept half the blame! I accepted on advice by the MC just so the marriage could be saved.
The first time she cheated was with an ex, about 1.5 yrs into the marriage. Our son had just been born. Her justification, I spent too much time at work and with son and not enough quality time with her. Our sex life has always been quite good. She also said I need to see less of my friends and be with her more. I did all this.
The next time was after our daughter was born, she was still working. This time she said it was because she was depressed and I wasn't paying enough attention to her. She started going out with a radio DJ, and would return home maybe at 4 am, then get up at 6 to go to work. Luckily we had a maid then and the kids were OK. 
The third time was about 2 years after that and she had a new job where she had to meet clients. I found out when I caught her out with him, with the children! She even drove him back to his home. 
This time there was a big blow out and again she blamed me, saying I wasn't attentive enough. 
Now its happening again, as I have posted elsewhere. 
What strikes me is that all the times she had been unfaithful, she would always blame something or someone else. Even when she was remorseful, I would always get the feeling that her biggest regret was that she got caught. 
In some ways, I think she even feels clever or proud of what she did. The first time, I found out because she confided in one of my best friends!
Her biggest worry is that her family will know of what she is doing, I don't think she even cares me and the kids know.
Conclusion; she does not think it is wrong unless you get caught. And she will use whatever excuse she can find to justify her behavior. In a sense it is intriguing, I don't believe she is capable of self examination and accepting responsibility for her actions. It is always someone else's fault.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

walkonmars said:


> Go to a cheater's board. My oh my what tales you'll read. And not a nano-ounce of remorse/regret


Recommending some?


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## HurtinginTN (Feb 22, 2011)

Sara8 said:


> Based on that, unless I am daft, he only SURMISES she had an emotional affair BEFORE THEY WERE MARRIED.
> 
> So, if it's prior to marriage it isn't an affair and it was not a proven affair.


For the record, I did surmise one, there were a couple proven prior to marriage. Affaircare's post opened my eyes to another issue. (Thank you Affaircare. I hope your husband gets better soon.) Rejection. I didn't realize how much some rejection from my childhood had effected me until a few months ago. I read a book on dealing with childhood issues that opened the floodgates of tears for me. I then realized that I had let a particular instance from my childhood really affect me. I bawled like a baby over something that had happened about 30 years ago. It was then that I realized that I had projected this pain of rejection on her every time she pushed me away. I gave it more power than it should have. I don't know how to explain it exactly, but any little perceived rejection from her crushed me. I gave each rejection 1,000,000 times more power than it should have. My over-reaction to her rejections made me extremely vulnerable to women where I had no fear of rejection (strippers and prostitutes). Again, not my wife's fault at all. 



Sara8 said:


> Later Hurting in tNs notes that after his third round of cheating WHILE MARRIED..........
> HIS WIFE IS HAVING AN EA.


Sorry, I just feel the need to clarify this one. The third round was after I'd been fighting her EA for a good while. It had not gone PA at that point in time only because of the distance between them. It did go PA.



Sara8 said:


> And thus, I am saying it WAS his fault, and he seems to be accepting blame, too. And that's a good thing, IMO.


Her affair was not my fault. It was a conscious decision on her part to step out of the marriage. I wasn't the perfect husband, but there is never a reason to cheat. I do fully accept the blame for my cheating, however.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

It's good that you admit your cheating, TN, but what are you doing about it? It's easy to admit to an affair or even more than one, but it is far, far harder to work on the issues that caused it, without blame-shifting, evasion or self-delusion. Many WS's will admit to cheating but very, few can look into their own motives and try to change.


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

Ok I didn't see this thread and so now I am here. I will read the 5 pages when I have the time, getting ready for MC in a little bit. For now I will tell you..I at first put all the fault on Calvin and I was very wrong for that. I look at myself and do not like the way I handled things at all. I was selfish and mean. I now see many many ways I could have and should have handled things but I didn't, instead I did the horrific, selfish thing. I went and found my ex boyfriend and began talking to him daily. I wish I had more time to elaborate but I will later. I do know I was wrong and Calvin did not deserve what I did and does not deserve it. It is 100% my fault. As I said I will come back when I get the time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

This is an interesting thread you have here BB.
Its a damn shame we're all here.
Believe me I had faults,still do.I have plenty and I'm still working on them.
There is just about no way to justify an affair.
I've had broken bones,stitches in my head,had people close to me die way before they should have.
None of those events compare with the pain CSS put me through.
Is a WS scum? No.I save words like that for the lowest of people.Selfish and cruel for what most did? Yes.I didnt deserve what I got.No way.
Niether did my kids.
I have more to say but as CSS mentioned we have MC now.
A WS can learn from this and its possible to make amends for what she did.
There will never be another chance.
I'll be back.Lets not beat up on one another,we can get along.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

Before my EA my thinking was. Calvin's always so pizzed off and that he was a jerk. Well I felt unloved and in my mind I thought "I want to be happy" I did not see that I had any faults. I did know having an E A was wrong yet did it anyway. I in a sense did not care.. This makes me sick that I thought that way now. Once I admitted to the EA I thought I wanted a divorce. All of this thinking was wrong...Post affair and back together working on reconcilling I have taken a look at myself, a good look at myself and do not like what I found. I now realize the reason for Calvins behavior was because I turned him that way. I was neglegent twords alot of his needs. I was unplugged and avoided having real talks with him. I ran away from conflict. So of course all of that would make Calvin a miserable unhappy man. I honestly thought he didn't love me. Wrong again. He loves me enough to give me this gift of one last chance. I have found that we both love the heck out of eachother. This hurts me daily that I was so cruel to him. I cannot change what I did but I can learn from it. I now put him first. I used to put the kids first. Wrong again. I have learned that I need and want to show him more appreciation and compassion. I will from now on face our difficultiees head on wih him and stop running away. I could have lost him. I hurt him deeply, I hurt our kids deeply. I hurt myself deeply. I now have a positive attitude and a never give up attitude. I listen, I love and I work hard at our marriage. I have a long way to go but I see improvement and will continue daily to keep this confidance. I am so remorseful for the EA but I know I will never do that again. Some day maybe he will believe me and forgive me. He is getting there and I am daily grateful. Yes I am aware of my boundaries and aware that this is my very last chance. I do not him to have any reason to worry that I am doing something I shouldn't so I have given myself boundries.for example: even tho I wouldn't be doing anything wrong, I
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

will never go out with the girls. I do not want to go out without him unless he promises to spy on me. I prefer him to do spying or VAR or whatever he needs because this way he is not sitting there wondering and worrying. I want him to check my phone. I want him and love him more than anything in this world. As I said, I am forever thankful that he is giving me this chance. I will cherish every moment I have with him and never ever take him for granted. Also he knows I would not put up with him daily punishing me or treatng me like crap for it. There is no reason to stay in a marriage like that. He does talk about the EA and question me and I am fine with that and am always honest. It hurts me that I hurt him but honesty is so important.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

btw I do not deserve this forgiveness but am accepting it. 7 months in and I am beginning to forgive myself altho it is very very hard. I hate what I did..hate hate hate it..I do get physically sick to my stomach when I think about it but that is a small price to pay. K I could go on but I'll stop.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

wildhawke said:


> When I found out about my W's affairs, the first thing she did was blame me. She even managed to convince the MC that I should accept half the blame! I accepted on advice by the MC just so the marriage could be saved.
> The first time she cheated was with an ex, about 1.5 yrs into the marriage. Our son had just been born. Her justification, I spent too much time at work and with son and not enough quality time with her. Our sex life has always been quite good. She also said I need to see less of my friends and be with her more. I did all this.
> The next time was after our daughter was born, she was still working. This time she said it was because she was depressed and I wasn't paying enough attention to her. She started going out with a radio DJ, and would return home maybe at 4 am, then get up at 6 to go to work. Luckily we had a maid then and the kids were OK.
> The third time was about 2 years after that and she had a new job where she had to meet clients. I found out when I caught her out with him, with the children! She even drove him back to his home.
> ...


You must be a masochist. Exposing her to the family would be a good first step. It will force her to have a good look at herslef


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

CantSitStill said:


> btw I do not deserve this forgiveness but am accepting it. 7 months in and I am beginning to forgive myself altho it is very very hard. I hate what I did..hate hate hate it..I do get physically sick to my stomach when I think about it but that is a small price to pay. K I could go on but I'll stop.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Dont know what to say to all that except I do love her and I almost backed out of doing R.
She had choices.Work on us with me,she did shoot down MC,rejected me quite a few times,she could go without sex for a long time.
Her anxiety was bad and she wouldnt talk things out.
She was always nervious but I guess having your mom put a knife to your throat and beating you at times might mess a person up.
I had/have been a jerk,yelled,ordered and did some stupid crap.I own it and have taken a long look at myself,then worked on me.
I will never put the blame or any part of what she did on me.
Its painful and something she will never have to experience from me.
CSS is a good girl,a good woman who mad a really dumb choice.
She's doing everything to make this work and I'm all in.I had to make changes too.I've seen her cry about all of this and get scared many times.
I'd be a damn idiot if I didnt work on this with her as a team.
I love her and I cant think of one reason not to stay together.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Calvin, you are a really lucky guy. I know that sometimes you don't FEEL lucky, but you are. CSS is, along with affaircare and Pidge what I think of when I think of truly remorseful WS's. Persons who will go to the wall to right a wrong that they are responsible for. Yes , we all do dumb ****, but when and if we get the chance, we own our errors and do our best to make it right. That is all anyone can ask of a WS. If more WS's acted that way , reconciliation would be far easier and less stressful to BOTH. One of the main reasons I started this thread is to show the difference between the two extremes. The remorseful and honorable WS and the dishonest and entitled WS. An honorable WS will give no excuses, shift no blame, respect their BS and his/her wishes, and do not try to control the R, for their own benefit. The dishonorable kind will use marital issues as an excuse for the affair, as a method of shifting blame from themselves, and as a means of controlling the R to their satisfaction, with little regard for the wishes of the BS.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

Its only been the last couple weeks were I really can say that I feel this is going to work.
There was a few time where I wanted out,I just could'nt do it anymore.
CSS stepped it up and gave me what I needed to see and hear.
I know a lot of people say the "it was out of character " line about their spouses a lot but for CSS it really was.
This whole experience has been a f'ing nightmare but is finally getting better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Leuven (Oct 1, 2012)

Wanted to ask here: could it just not be that they canot take the quilt, not because they do not want to, but because it would break them?
And do not agree, and I am the victem. My partner is a good person, and at the moment I believe more in teh goodness of my partner then he does in himself.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

Leuven said:


> Wanted to ask here: could it just not be that they canot take the quilt, not because they do not want to, but because it would break them?
> And do not agree, and I am the victem. My partner is a good person, and at the moment I believe more in teh goodness of my partner then he does in himself.


I don't agree with that. If someone is going to do this, they have enough time to think about it, and when it comes right down to it, they just don't feel bad about it at the time. There's no guilt, they have no problem with betrayal. Their actions demonstrate that, no matter what they say with their words.


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> Recommending some?


Well, this: (from a post on another thread:


keko said:


> She is either getting advice from someone who's been there or she is a very experienced cheater herself. Have a look at
> 
> *doccool.com/forums
> *
> to get an understanding of how these people think.


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

I did not come here to be told I am doing a good job or a bad job, I did not come here to compare myself with other WS' I came here to explain how at first I did put blame on Calvin and to explain how much I myself have gone thru since D-day. Yes the BS goes thru a hell of alot but the question was about what goes on in the mind of a WS. I tried to explain it the best I can. Yes a WS didd a very wrong thing. I am not looking for a pat on the back from anyone. All I care about is my marriage. I do not sit around and judge or try to figure out which WS' are remorseful and which ones are not. People express themselves differently so it is not like we really know who is remorseful or who is not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

CantSitStill said:


> I did not come here to be told I am doing a good job or a bad job, I did not come here to compare myself with other WS' I came here to explain how at first I did put blame on Calvin and to explain how much I myself have gone thru since D-day. Yes the BS goes thru a hell of alot but the question was about what goes on in the mind of a WS. I tried to explain it the best I can. Yes a WS didd a very wrong thing. I am not looking for a pat on the back from anyone. All I care about is my marriage. I do not sit around and judge or try to figure out which WS' are remorseful and which ones are not. People express themselves differently so it is not like we really know who is remorseful or who is not.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good point, CSS. I find it disheartening when people would claim that some WS's are doing "more" than other WS's. How in the he!! can anyone not in any of these marital homes claim to know anything at all. Any thing.

I wasn't going to respond in this thread, but I've pretty much had enough of the passive aggressive crap thrown around at times.


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

Well the thing is, what I did is shameful and I am ashamed as all other WS' who are working on R with their spouse are also ashamed. It's something we have to live with. Thank God for places like TAM to help. I am thankful for the people here that are helpful. It's a nice support group.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

There is no contest to see who is showing more remorse or who hurts more.
Everyone hurts in their own way,it just flat out sucks.Everyone's R is the same yet different.
BB did bring up some uncomfortable things to think about .He cant read minds just the post.
R is a learning and changing process.Some things dawn on us later,good or bad.
We dont come here to get anyone's acceptance or
approval,just advice.We take the advice and shift through it.Take some,throw some out.
What matters the most are our spouses and how we help eachother.
Yes,I feel the BS is in worse pain.In my case CSS had plenty of options,she chose the one that almost did me in.Very bad choice.
I know everyone hurts,I know the chances for me are pretty good and from what I can tell everyone else has a good shot.
We're not trying to see who can R the fastest.
Many things come into play,for both the WS and the BS.
Its just hard people.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> Good point, CSS. I find it disheartening when people would claim that some WS's are doing "more" than other WS's. How in the he!! can anyone not in any of these marital homes claim to know anything at all. Any thing.
> 
> I wasn't going to respond in this thread, but I've pretty much had enough of the passive aggressive crap thrown around at times.


Regret is trying and that is what matters, really the only approval she needs is from you and no one else  this stuff is hard and it's gonna be ok. Just keep your focus on eachother instead of what people think. I am rooting for you two as I am Empty and B1. It is nice to have you guys who are going thru this also to talk to and to know we are not alone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Badblood~

I would like to apologize to you out here in public, because I sort of took you (and the other folks on this thread) to task in public. Hey this isn't your first rodeo--you've been around long enough to know that usually I'm pretty fair, hard to shake, and not really that grouchy of a person. When I responded I was not my usual self and I was angry, and although the reply was accurate, I regret that I replied in anger to you, because you deserve better. 

First I'd like to say that I'm responsible for the way I spoke to you, and I am sorry. If you could forgive me, I would be very grateful. Over the time here at TAM, you and I have had several good discussions and you are so right, I was projecting those names and things. That wasn't you--that was mean hearing yet another thread degrade into ragging on WS's. I'd say I was too tired, stressed, and angry to reply in a wise way, and thus I ended up making choices that were UNWISE (duh)! LOL Oh well if nothing else goes to show even I'm human. 

I could completely understand how you might be upset about being spoken to so disrespectfully, and how it may have hurt to be get a reply like that in front of everyone...in public. I could understand--and yet I bravely ask for forgiveness anyway.

In the future, I have a plan to avoid this. First, I need to learn how to more effectively manage the stress of caregiving. I hear that taking a break works wonders! LOL I'll have to try that. Second, I will type a response and if I have any clue it has made me angry (I can usually spot that right off) I'll put it aside for at least an hour, cool off, re-read it...and only send it if I still agree with what I wrote after I've cooled off. Third, hey, for you I'll grant ya some grace, and by that I mean that I know some of your character already just from your threads, and I know your generally a very loyal, honest, honorable kind of guy....so if you say something that seems unlike you, I'll give ya the benefit of the doubt

So again, I apologize. I still think most of what I said is true but the way I said it was out of line, and I do hope you'll forgive me.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

SomedayDig said:


> Good point, CSS. I find it disheartening when people would claim that some WS's are doing "more" than other WS's. How in the he!! can anyone not in any of these marital homes claim to know anything at all. Any thing.
> 
> I wasn't going to respond in this thread, but I've pretty much had enough of the passive aggressive crap thrown around at times.


Somedaydig, do you really know what "passive-agressive " means? It means to criticize somebody wtihout the appearance of doing so. It means conflict-avoidance. If you will look at my posts, you will find that there are a surprising number where I will name a person, outright. I have a far less desire to avoid conflict than most other posters, and will not hesitate to tell it like I see it. Now, look at your post and look at mine, who is "passive-agressive", you or me? Having said that, I agree, this isn't a competition, but simply stating which of the WS's appear to be taking a more mature and honest approach to R. Your wife Regret has shown great maturity in that she has undergone some very extensive self -examination, and because of it, is much better able to set new boundaries for herself, with regards to other men. This should make you feel a lot better about trusting her judgement , in the future.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Affaircare said:


> Badblood~
> 
> I would like to apologize to you out here in public, because I sort of took you (and the other folks on this thread) to task in public. Hey this isn't your first rodeo--you've been around long enough to know that usually I'm pretty fair, hard to shake, and not really that grouchy of a person. When I responded I was not my usual self and I was angry, and although the reply was accurate, I regret that I replied in anger to you, because you deserve better.
> 
> ...


Affaircare, asking for my forgiveness, is preposterous!! I do not, and have not, taken any of your comments, as personally insulting, because we have interacted many times in the past, and I feel that there is some mutual respect between us. I also would not hesitate to add, that you are under a load of stress, right now, and it would be un-gentlemanly of me to hold you accountable for words spoken under that stress. If it is all the same to you, let's not speak about it again, OK? You are aces in my book.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

:smthumbup: We have an understanding.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Absolutely, AffairCare. We are good to go.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

CantSitStill said:


> Regret is trying and that is what matters, really the only approval she needs is from you and no one else  this stuff is hard and it's gonna be ok. Just keep your focus on eachother instead of what people think. I am rooting for you two as I am Empty and B1. It is nice to have you guys who are going thru this also to talk to and to know we are not alone.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree with this, CSS. Regret IS trying , and trying very hard. What I like about her, is that she is showing the courage it takes to examine her motives for cheating., she isn't blaming Somedaydig, and she is open to any idea that will help her to move forward and improve herself, as a person. I really believe that she and her husband have a good shot at recovery. The difference between her and Empty Inside is that Regret has owned her cheating, whereas EI still believes in shared blame. She continues to say that her marriage problems somehow lead her to cheat. The reason I started this thread was to show that this idea is wrong and doesn't help R, in the long run. While it's true that cheating doesn't happen in a vacuum, it's just as true that many people go through the same problems that EI experienced, (or worse) and DID NOT cheat. The choice to cheat is the WS's ALONE, everything else is blame-shifting. I believe that EI IS also trying hard, but too much of her efforts are wasted in making excuses, instead of in self-examination and improvement. When she is able to post without blaming B1, IN ANY WAY, I will think she is farther along on her recovery, and her and B1's R will be on a more solid footing. 
I also agree with Cal. We posters can only go by what is said in the posts, we have no idea what is happening on the homefront. I'm no clairvoyant, I work with the tools I'm given. If I get it wrong, tell me and I'll correct my mistakes. TAM isn't about personalities, it's about helping, so there is no need to bite anyone's head off.


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## B1 (Jun 14, 2012)

BB 
EI has completely owned her cheating. Instead of affair, I like to use the word adultery. Because that's what she did, that's the sin she committed against me, our marriage and against God.
That's what she owns, that's what she is to blame for and takes full responsibility for. She admits fault and takes ALL the blame for her adultery. In case you have not read this, she has said these words to me over and over. Everything we discuss does not get posted here.

Now, the thing is, I committed sins too, are you aware that withholding sex is a sin in Gods eyes also?
1 Cor. 7:1-5. BUT you see, no one slams me for that, there are no torches and pitchforks for me. So, in essence I get away with that one and I get away with NOT honoring, loving, and cherishing her too. But I face NO consequences from TAM or you? why? ALL EI is saying is that, come on guys, it took two to make this mess, and I for one, agree to that. 

I am a 47 year old man, EI cannot make me think anything, she can't make me think I am to blame for more than I am. I and only I know what I am thinking and know what I know. I DO NOT take blame for her adultery or take and fault for it. That's ALL on EI and she
knows this, she excepts this and her choice is eating her up inside, she hates the choice she made.


Let's face a very simple fact, would she have chosen adultery had I been loving her, honoring her and cherishing her?
The answer is an absolute NO. Would she have sought another man had I been giving her sex? again NO. Now, you call these excuses, I call them reasons, BIG difference. People need to hear that pre-A in some cases was an horrific place to be for the WS. Now, many have been in her shoes and didn't commit adultery, that's where EI messed up and she knows it, owns it and is sorry for it. She could not cope, she didn't have the means to cope and handle this issue, she broke.


Now, I have blame in the fact I put her in a vulnerable state, I pushed her over the edge...NOW what she did over the edge is all on her, it was her choice to cheat and she 100% owns that. EI is very concerned with making sure that when people read our posts that the couples working in a TRUE R need to address problems in the marriage prior to the affair also, NOT just the affair alone. EI has true remorse, guilt and shame. I am not in this R to punish her and I wish you did not feel this incessant need to punish her too. She is sorry, truly sorry. I had to leave work early yesterday to comfort her, she called me in tears and was self loathing, other stresses we are ealing with are getting to her along with the A.

She has literally hundreds, well over 200 PM's (deleted over 100) of support, others asking for help, and about a dozen wanting to know what your problem is with her, sorry, just the truth.

Everyone else can see her work, they understand her pain, her sorrow, her regret and they know she knows she is at fault for her adultery.

EI isn't going to post here, so in her defense you have asked us to NOT talk about you, refer to you etc. I would ask the same from you about EI. Leave her alone, she is hurting enough and is overly sensitive right now. We are doing very well, our R will be successful. Is it easy, hell no, it's hard, I still hurt and will, but EI is there, always there for me. She is amazing and caring, giving, and loving. We are both changed people, for the better. Our marriage is much better than it has been in probably 15 years. Remember what we had pre-A was a train wreck, so what we have now IS better, hell, almost anything would be better then what we had pre-a.

This isn't a compettion here about who's in true R and who is NOT. And you can't decide that from your VERY limited knowledge of our situation.

We are in R and a successful one at that. Our counselor just thinks the world of both of us and has no doubt we will make it..Why? because we confront ALL the issues, we deal with them daily. I don't hold back questions and EI doesn't hold back answers. We communicate like NEVER before. Our honesty is brutal, but neccessary. 

We are both improved, better versions of our old selves. We both no why or the reasons the affair happened, we both know EI was at fault for her adultery. I am sorry for my parts and EI is sorry for hers, This is KEY for a successful R. I love her and she loves me and she understands my pain and has empathy for me. I know her pain and have empathy for her also. We were both hurt in all this. It's NOT just a one person show.

I hope this clears some things up, if not, Oh well, life goes on..but to me it really doesn't matter what others think, it matters what EI thinks. However, what others think does affect EI, I hate this too. She is such a good person at heart.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

B1, I only said that you and EI should not refer to me on YOUR thread, IF you do not want me to visit it. On my thread you are free to say anything you want and so is EI (and so is anyone else). All I ask is that posters will discus issues and not get personally insulting. We are (supposedly) adults, right? Nothing I have ever said about you or EI has been , in any way, insulting or personally motivated.
Both you and EI will SAY that she accepts full responsibility for her adultery, but both of you consistantly spend much more time and effort enumerating YOUR pre-A faults, than you do HER character flaws. A great many people have had it far worse than y'all. In my first marriage, we were parents, caregivers to 2 invalided seniors, and attempting to recover ( me) from PTSD, her from otc drug addiction. We had huge issues with each other, yet neither of us cheated. She with-held sex from me for years, yet I never cheated. She would never discus our problems, yet I never cheated, even though I had many, many, many opportunities to do so. Rather than cheat, I divorced. Why? because it was the moral thing to do. When faced with the same issues, EI made the immoral choice. This is, in no way, your responsibility. Should you have treated her better? Of course you should. My wife should have treated me better, too. But that doesn't excuse EI's choice, any more than my wife's treatment of me would have excused me , if I had cheated. People of good character, do not cheat. It's as simple as that. You, me, or anyone else can give "reasons", excuses, alibis, or psycho-babble, but that doesn't change the basic fact, does it?


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

BTW, If you don't care what I think, then why are you here? It's like I said earlier, if EI is willing and able to come to any thread and discus her affair , WITHOUT refering to YOUR faults, WITHOUT making excuses or "reasons" for her behavior, then I will think that you and she have turned a huge corner in your R. But I don't see that happening, yet, do you? What I see is a continued insistance that " it's not about who's right or whos wrong". It is ALL about who's right and who's wrong. She will continue to blame -shift and you will (from a mis-placed sense of guilt) continue to accept it. I WANT you both to succeed, I truly do. I want you to succeed, where I failed. I know that EI doesn't believe it, but I am your biggest supporter, but I offer real support, not petty cheerleading. I hope and pray that she will, at some point, realize this and begin to improve her own character , instead of blaming you and your treatment of her, for her choices. I am ready, willing , and able to help , IN ANY WAY I CAN. BTW, if either of you are in IC and your counselors support continued blame-shifting, then you need to get new counselors.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Sorry for T/Jing my own thread. (egg on my face) But this illustrates my original post. R is very, very tough, but confusing marital issues with cheating issues only makes it tougher.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

betrayed1 said:


> BB
> 
> Let's face a very simple fact, would she have chosen adultery had I been loving her, honoring her and cherishing her?


She might not, but there are people who cheat, people who are happily married and have all their "needs" fulfilled.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

BjornFree said:


> She might not, but there are people who cheat, people who are happily married and have all their "needs" fulfilled.


Only that's not the real issue here. Far from it. She's not a newly wed with tons of amotional issues to fight, a serial cheater, some who displayes poor boundaries since they met. She has been faithful for all her marriage. It's a personal failure, which she owns fully, after decades of marriage and after years and years of neglect. B1 explain the context at the infidelity happened, his huge contribution to a almost terminal marriage. And it's not to make excuses but to own his stuff. How are you going to reconcile a marriage without that?


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Acabado, B1 is quite right to own his share of the blame for the past marriage issues. The problem is, that EI simply cannot or will not seperate the marrage woes from her cheating behavior. Both of them believe that the affair would not have occured if B1 had been more attentive. If that isn't an excuse, what is it? It is blame-shifting, pure and simple.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Badblood said:


> Acabado, B1 is quite right to own his share of the blame for the past marriage issues. The problem is, that EI simply cannot or will not seperate the marrage woes from her cheating behavior. Both of them believe that the affair would not have occured if B1 had been more attentive. If that isn't an excuse, what is it? It is blame-shifting, pure and simple.


It's just your opinion. You stated it months ago, since EI came here to get help. You keep doing it. You does repeatedly. You keep warning B1, everyone, everywhere, she's not owning her sh1t, that she shifts the blame. I disagree, many other posters disagree, their counselors disagree. What's the point of beating that dead horse?

I'm glad you were strong enough to don't fail yourself when things were so bad in your marriage. It proves some people stick to their values no matter the circunstances. Great.

But you see? People fail themselves all the time. It's just human. Many doesn't need any reason, they do just becuase, they are just broken inside. We can agreed It's really a character flaw. They will keep failing. Others finnaly crack under certain circunstances. Even metal cracks under continued cycles of pressure, it's called the suffering point, isn't it shocking? It happens, EI reached hers. Period. It's that simple. As B1 pointed out she chose to jump. Once was pushed near the clif.
As I'm very conscious of my own failings past and present I suppose that's why I find a way to empathize so I choose to stop beating forever.

Hope you find peace. It doesn't seem you have. I sometimes wonder whether you are somehow searching a impossible chance to reconcile by proxy. It doesn't seem your wives gave you that option and I'm sorry for that.

Still you are not naive nor stupid, you know damm well you provoke some posters. If I were you I'd ask myself why the hell keep doing it. But well, I'm not you.

Peace.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Badblood said:


> *BTW, If you don't care what I think, then why are you here? *


*Because he loves me. Plain and simple. * It certainly isn't because he thinks you are as wise as you believe you are. He isn't here to convince you of anything.... because what you think or say or believe has *no bearing* upon the state of our marriage or the success of our reconciliation. *None*.... B1 pays absolutely no attention to your endless comments about what you believe to be my refusal to "own my choice and accept responsibility for it." He doesn't even read your comments unless I ask him to. He chooses to ignore you and pleads with me to do the same. What B1 does care about is *me* and the effect that your continued negativity towards me has on me. That's why he posted here. Not to convince you of anything. He and I have, both, asked you to stop.... leave us alone. Your comments hurt me.... not because they bear any resemblance to the truth. Bullies often spew lies and venom towards their victims.... it doesn't make them true, but it hurts their victims, just the same.

I am tempted to repeat our story, but I won't. It's on our various threads for anyone who cares to read it. You seem to be the only person who continues to hurl negative comments in our direction. Why you truly believe that you are more cognitive about the state of our reconciliation than we are is beyond me. Why you continue to reference me, creating thread-after-thread about anyone who doesn't agree with your way of thinking, when we've repeatedly asked you to stop is beyond me. What do you hope to accomplish? Let me make one thing perfectly clear.... your input has not helpful in our situation, and not because we refuse to see things from your point of view.... that only you believe to be correct. But, because believe it or not, WS's hurt and have feelings just like BS's. Would it make you feel happy and make you feel powerful to know that B1 came home from work early, yesterday, from a very high-powered government position, because I was having a meltdown???... And, it wasn't because of anything to do with my affair, or the myriad of other very real challenges that we face in our life, every day, but mostly because you are driving me crazy. If you have any kind of heart, conscience, goodwill or intelligence then you will please leave us alone. Please do not speak of us, comment about us, refer to us, use us as any kind of example.... good or bad.... for God's sakes, we are trying to save our marriage, one that we *both* agree that we *both* F'd up, terribly, but one that we feel is worth saving and I have spent too much energy getting upset about your comments. Energy that I need to spend working on my marriage.

BTW, my pm box has message after message in it from people telling me that I should not comment to you and that you are, obviously................. (fill in the blank.... because there is a wide variety of speculation out there..... and none of it bodes well for you.) If, after all of this, you continue to comment about us or reference us in any way, whatsoever, then you're going to make it abundantly clear to others, what B1 and I have already accepted.... you have lost your ability to be rational when it comes to us, and for whatever reason, you are projecting your own failed marriages, and likely, your own refusal to accept your personal failures in your marriages, as the BS, onto us. Not every WS is the devil nor is every BS Mother Theresa. It usually take two to make a marriage and two to break a marriage. Not always, but most of the time. 

Now, I am fully aware that you always have to get in the last word..... so.............................


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Acabado said:


> People fail themselves all the time. It's just human. Many doesn't need any reason, they do just becuase, they are just broken inside. We can agreed It's really a character flaw. They will keep failing. Others finnaly crack under certain circunstances. Even metal cracks under continued cycles of pressure, it's called the suffering point, isn't it shocking? It happens, EI reached hers. Period. It's that simple. As B1 pointed out she chose to jump. Once was pushed near the clif.


Thank you, Acabado, but please don't get yourself banned, you are too valuable to TAM to risk getting banned for B1 and myself. Other TAM members need your wisdom, compassion and understanding. B1 and I will continue to try to reason with Badblood, until he tires of tormenting us, for his own folly, or until he finds another target...... or until we get banned ourselves. **sigh


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## Hope Springs Eternal (Oct 6, 2012)

So Sad Lady said:


> I think that the WS can justify anything in their head. Even if the BS is a perfect spouse (we all know, no one is perfect). But once someone decides to, and gives themselves permission to cheat...they can dig up every last bad thing about their partner to justify their actions in their own head.
> 
> And then when they are caught! Assuming they feel remorse and shame - they don't just say, "Sorry, I was being selfish and not even thinking of you." They say, "Well, you did this, and you acted this way, and you made me feel this way...etc". Basically saying, "You made me do it." And sometimes, I think they actually believe that!
> 
> ...


This is so true. Once the WS has decided to cheat, it's nothing but excuses why they were driven to cheat. And no mention of reasons why it is so wrong. Pure selfishness and shortsightedness.


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

I am a WS and I agree. Yes I did it, I went on and on about his faults and claimed to have none. Why? I honestly was not looking inward and at the real issues within myself. Also yes I should have made other choices for my unhappiness and I didn't. I am not proud of my behavior at all. I am blessed to have this chance of R and since then I have taken a good look at myself and did not like what I saw. The good news is it's never too late to change and I have been working very hard on being a better person and wife.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

It doesn't matter how bad things are or were in a marriage. That is no licence, no reason, no justification to cheat. Infidelity is NEVER a good solution. Your BS did not put a gun to your head and shove you into the arms of another. If the marriage is bad, the thing to do is end it, or threaten to. The decision to cheat is the wayward's and their's alone. Infidelity takes the bad situation and makes it a whole order of magnitude worse. The problems that existed before, no matter how bad they seemed, were probably not all that intractable, the couple just didn't have the right tools or motivation to solve them. Those who attempt R, real R, and who are making a genuine go of it, well they could breeze through the pre A problems, if they are tackling the betrayal and absolute gut wrenching realizations that come from it. 

Any Ws in R, did you have any clue how much you really meant to your BS before you had your affair? Any idea how much they truly valued you, the marriage, the family? Just how much hell they are willing to endure to save it?


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Acabado said:


> It's just your opinion. You stated it months ago, since EI came here to get help. You keep doing it. You does repeatedly. You keep warning B1, everyone, everywhere, she's not owning her sh1t, that she shifts the blame. I disagree, many other posters disagree, their counselors disagree. What's the point of beating that dead horse?
> 
> I'm glad you were strong enough to don't fail yourself when things were so bad in your marriage. It proves some people stick to their values no matter the circunstances. Great.
> 
> ...


Acabado, sorry I'm late getting back to the thread, but I've been busy with the new place and haven't had the time. It's much more that EI has a problem with me, than I have with her. I understand that she is trying and I say so repeatedly, but she continues to make blame-shifting statements, like" It isn't about who's right or wrong", and she continues to write paragraph after paragraph excusing her conduct and blaming B1's treatment of her as the reason she cheated. Sorry but , to me , this isn't owning your sh*t.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Empty Inside said:


> *Because he loves me. Plain and simple. * It certainly isn't because he thinks you are as wise as you believe you are. He isn't here to convince you of anything.... because what you think or say or believe has *no bearing* upon the state of our marriage or the success of our reconciliation. *None*.... B1 pays absolutely no attention to your endless comments about what you believe to be my refusal to "own my choice and accept responsibility for it." He doesn't even read your comments unless I ask him to. He chooses to ignore you and pleads with me to do the same. What B1 does care about is *me* and the effect that your continued negativity towards me has on me. That's why he posted here. Not to convince you of anything. He and I have, both, asked you to stop.... leave us alone. Your comments hurt me.... not because they bear any resemblance to the truth. Bullies often spew lies and venom towards their victims.... it doesn't make them true, but it hurts their victims, just the same.
> 
> I am tempted to repeat our story, but I won't. It's on our various threads for anyone who cares to read it. You seem to be the only person who continues to hurl negative comments in our direction. Why you truly believe that you are more cognitive about the state of our reconciliation than we are is beyond me. Why you continue to reference me, creating thread-after-thread about anyone who doesn't agree with your way of thinking, when we've repeatedly asked you to stop is beyond me. What do you hope to accomplish? Let me make one thing perfectly clear.... your input has not helpful in our situation, and not because we refuse to see things from your point of view.... that only you believe to be correct. But, because believe it or not, WS's hurt and have feelings just like BS's. Would it make you feel happy and make you feel powerful to know that B1 came home from work early, yesterday, from a very high-powered government position, because I was having a meltdown???... And, it wasn't because of anything to do with my affair, or the myriad of other very real challenges that we face in our life, every day, but mostly because you are driving me crazy. If you have any kind of heart, conscience, goodwill or intelligence then you will please leave us alone. Please do not speak of us, comment about us, refer to us, use us as any kind of example.... good or bad.... for God's sakes, we are trying to save our marriage, one that we *both* agree that we *both* F'd up, terribly, but one that we feel is worth saving and I have spent too much energy getting upset about your comments. Energy that I need to spend working on my marriage.
> 
> ...


EI, with all due respect, this is my thread, and it didn't start out about you or B1. You seem to be obsessing about my opinion, and I wish you would stop it. PLEASE!! Also, please refrain from personal attacks and stick to the thread, if you don't mind. AS I said earlier, if you will continue to try to R and refrain from even mentioning B1's past actions as reasons for your cheating, THEN I will believe that you are truly owning your stuff. I completely agree with you. Surprised? BOTH of you DID cause the marriage to go bad. What I'm trying to get throught to you is that , that is beside the point with regards to your cheating. Unlike yours, my marriage was practically perfect. Lots and lots of sex, intellectual and emotional bonding, and very high regard for each other. BUT there was that ONE carefully hidden psycho-sexual issue with older men, that I didn't even know about, that lead her estray. My ex-wife had a severe character flaw that lead her to cheat in a most unwholesome way. What could I have done to prevent something that was already there? And I am not alone, many, many cheaters and BS's have come to TAM and stated that their marriages were good, but the cheating still occured. Why? Because infidelity is independent of the marriage conditions, though those conditions are frequently used as justification for the affair. My suggestion ( and this is just a suggestion) to you is to work on the character issues that lead you to cheat, without blaming the bad past marriage as the cause, because it wasn't. OWn the affair and keep B from sharing any blame or fault for it. BOTH of you can work on the marriage issues together, and I think that if you use this as a guideline, you can succeed. My very best of luck to you.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

The reason for this thread is to show that the fault and cause of cheating is in the emotional and psychological make-up of the WS, and nowhere else. Many marriages are bad, but no cheating occurs. Many men and women are sexually, emotionally, intellectually, financially or spiritually un-fulfilled, but no cheating occurs. Many people in marriage have vast differences, but no cheating occurs. Some people are even children of cheaters, yet no cheating occurs. Those WS's who are wise will do the self-examination that it will take to discover the reason that they ever thought cheating was acceptable, and correct the flaw. Sadly, most will blame everything and everybody, except the person in the mirror.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Acabado said:


> It's just your opinion. You stated it months ago, since EI came here to get help. You keep doing it. You does repeatedly. You keep warning B1, everyone, everywhere, she's not owning her sh1t, that she shifts the blame. I disagree, many other posters disagree, their counselors disagree. What's the point of beating that dead horse?
> 
> I'm glad you were strong enough to don't fail yourself when things were so bad in your marriage. It proves some people stick to their values no matter the circunstances. Great.
> 
> ...


Acabado, I hope that I do provoke posters. I hope that I provoke them to think about their actions and responses and not just expect some kind of "feel good" answers. BTW, Acabado, you have no idea how many hours , days, and months I have replayed our marriage over and over in my mind , trying to find reasons or ways that I might have contributed to her affair and her mental state. Signs that I might have missed, or mis-interpreted. Hints she might have given that I didn't pick up on. I have felt like a fool , many times. But I finally realized that her issues stemmed from the carefully hidden abuse she suffered and that there was simply nothing I could have done to help her. If you have read my posts, you will know how hard I tried.


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## daisygirl 41 (Aug 5, 2011)

Badblood said:


> The reason for this thread is to show that the fault and cause of cheating is in the emotional and psychological make-up of the WS, and nowhere else. Many marriages are bad, but no cheating occurs. Many men and women are sexually, emotionally, intellectually, financially or spiritually un-fulfilled, but no cheating occurs. Many people in marriage have vast differences, but no cheating occurs. Some people are even children of cheaters, yet no cheating occurs. Those WS's who are wise will do the self-examination that it will take to discover the reason that they ever thought cheating was acceptable, and correct the flaw. Sadly, most will blame everything and everybody, except the person in the mirror.


Good post. Your thoughts had made me analyse my own situation deeply. I too was all too ready to take some blame for WHs A. I'm not perfect by a long shot and neither was our marriage for a long while before the A started BUT he chose to cheat. He stepped over the line! There has been some blameshifting on his part, ESP in the early days of our R and before, but I call him out on it, every single time and he gets it, it sunk in! One of the best conversations we have had during our R was when he finally owned his **** and said what he did was unforgivable,
He wasn't happy, but what he did was all on him, he chose to cheat! I felt like a weight had been lifted off my shoulders when I heard this and it's really helped our R.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

CSS tried the blame shifting and history rewrite but that didnt last very long at all.
Hell she even told me at first I was 100% responsible for everything.
She had to take that long hard look at her self and after a few weeks admitted the cheating was all on her,she could have done things differently and not hurt the family and others.
For her to admitt that took courage and I respect her for it.
As for as the problems in the marriage,I own 50% of it and wish I would have done things differently.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

"But...."

It's a tiny word, BUT it has a huge impact on the meaning of a sentence, or as i have discovered, in an apology.

This is for example what I get from my wife when I ask something: "My cheating IS my responsibilty, I DO take ownership, but(!) you were being distant/OM played me/someone did something etc." You get the idea.

What this tiny word translates to is "I know that I am supposed to appologize, it's the right thing to do, people do that, but in reality, I don't think it was my fault at all - so I plea not-guilty, someone else is to blame"

BS will know that their WS owns their sh!t when they are able to say "I apologize for XYZ, and I am so sorry, that I have OPQ you, you must feel YZW", with absolutely no condition or strings attached.

Edit to say: Projecting guilt this way, is IMO one indicator, that either cheating will reoccur or that WS has put a time limit on the relationship.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

cpacan said:


> "But...."
> 
> It's a tiny word, BUT it has a huge impact on the meaning of a sentence, or as i have discovered, in an apology.
> 
> ...


Are you still with your wife?


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

BjornFree said:


> Are you still with your wife?


Yes, I am. For several reasons - at the time being, obviously


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

Acabado said:


> Only that's not the real issue here. Far from it. She's not a newly wed with tons of amotional issues to fight, a serial cheater, some who displayes poor boundaries since they met. She has been faithful for all her marriage. It's a personal failure, which she owns fully, after decades of marriage and after years and years of neglect. B1 explain the context at the infidelity happened, his huge contribution to a almost terminal marriage. And it's not to make excuses but to own his stuff. How are you going to reconcile a marriage without that?


Again, I want to reiterate something that the tears mentioned. An affair is not the product of a bad relationship. And that is a statement I have to agree with. B1 may have had a role in contributing to a bad marriage, but it was a failure within the marriage. He didn't bring in an external force, willingly into the relationship.

And how is cheating for over a year not a sign of poor boundaries? Just because the said person has been married for a long time and has been faithful doesn't justify the causes that led to the affair. It takes only one act of extramarital sex to break relationships and to forever acknowledge to oneself that he or she has cheated, no matter how long the relationship was or how faithful the spouse in question was before the cheating occurred.

I don't see anything wrong in badblood's posts, nor do I see him making personal attacks or being leery about people who are reconciling. He's merely making an observation which is true, IMO.

EI, I do applaud you and B1 for making the wholehearted effort to reconcile. Its not an easy thing for couples to recover from and B1 has a lot of courage for opting this route, but unless you examine the reasons for your cheating( apart from the terminally ill marriage cause), i fear that your R process will be all the more difficult for B1 to handle.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

Bringing in a third person into the marriage is the worst choice you can make.There are other options.Her old hs bf was NOT who she thought he was.
When she went to break it off he called her all kinds of names and his digusting phone calls went on for months.
He never had sex with her in highschool and he thought he was going to this time and move into my house.
She knows this was all on her.Not me.
She no longer trust men.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

This brings up the question which is better, betraying the marriage or ending it. A lot of married WS's and BS's too aren't able to imagine being single, for a variety of reasons, and so they are desperate to R, even when it clearly isn't a good thing.


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

Badblood said:


> This brings up the question which is better, betraying the marriage or ending it. A lot of married WS's and BS's too aren't able to imagine being single, for a variety of reasons, *and so they are desperate to R, even when it clearly isn't a good thing.*


I think the thread is quite relevant, but I disagree with you here. No one can foresee the future whether they reconcile or split. So "clearly isn't a good thing" is to stretch it, I think.

Having a crystal ball would be nice from time to time 

End of TJ... just a thought on the topic. I don't think that all cheaters necessarily are _aware_ of their tendency towards projecting guilt and implicitly blameshift.

Doesn't have to be bad people, just not capable of separating issues and dealing with them on an individual basis.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

BjornFree said:


> Again, I want to reiterate something that the tears mentioned. An affair is not the product of a bad relationship. And that is a statement I have to agree with. B1 may have had a role in contributing to a bad marriage, but it was a failure within the marriage. He didn't bring in an external force, willingly into the relationship.
> 
> And how is cheating for over a year not a sign of poor boundaries? Just because the said person has been married for a long time and has been faithful doesn't justify the causes that led to the affair. It takes only one act of extramarital sex to break relationships and to forever acknowledge to oneself that he or she has cheated, no matter how long the relationship was or how faithful the spouse in question was before the cheating occurred.
> 
> ...


Bjorn, I sometimes have trouble understanding why people will attack the messenger, but ignore the message. In EI's case, I will applaud her efforts at R and do this in almost every post. I am constantly expressing my support for her and B1, but it's no use. She fixates on the one issue that we are at odds about , to the exclusion of everything else. If , instead of attacking, we could just talk, without rancor, we just might be able to help each other. I feel the same way about some of the other posters. I feel that R is just as much about self-improvement as it is about cheerleading. If you lie, blame-shift, TT, or evade then you should be called on it, because lying, blame-shifting, TTing, and evading are part of the infidelity,not part of the cure.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

You might be right, Cpacan. Perhaps I should have said that they are so desperate to R that they will rug-sweep and not address the WS's issues that caused the affair.
I agree with you about this, there are some good people here who are simply unable to address individual issues, individually.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

Badblood said:


> This brings up the question which is better, betraying the marriage or ending it. A lot of married WS's and BS's too aren't able to imagine being single, for a variety of reasons, and so they are desperate to R, even when it clearly isn't a good thing.


When it comes to the WS, and their choice, I definitely think they should have chosen to end the marriage, rather than betray it. I think it would be a hell of a lot easier to recover from that than betrayal. At least the BS is informed about what is happening, which is not the case in infidelity, at least at the beginning in most cases (except you MattMatt, that just is weird!) That much is very black and white to me. No good ever comes from infidelity itself.

As to the BS after dday, well that can get pretty gray. Depends on a lot of things, but one thing is for sure, the BS is always going to pay a very high price, no matter what the outcome. Not to say they won't wind up better off, but the price to get there is a lot steeper because of the WS' unilateral choice to open the marriage up.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

Yes the BS does pay a high price.With interest.
Its a payment plan no one wants to be on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Yeah, Cal, it's an expensive and painful process, to be sure.


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