# I don't know



## mjgh06

I don't know seems to be my answer for everything. I am sitting right now on the living room couch typing while my husband sits on the love seat watching tv.

We have been married for 12yrs. I have a 22yos from a previous marriage, and we have an 11yod together. This is the second weekend in almost a year that my husband has actually had off work, our daughter is at her grandparents. So why are we sitting separately alone??

This is how it has been for too long to remember. I have suggested counseling and that was a no go on his part. I have suggested talking to our pastor again no go and he had told me he wanted to finally get baptized but seems to be backing out of that as well. 

I feel so lonely around him. We are roommates and not good ones either. So I keep asking myself why I stay when I want so much more. 

reasons to stay:
He is a hard working man who does work to support his family.
He is faithful.
He doesn't treat me bad in the abusive type sense.
I don't want to be divorced a second time.
Together we have no worries about bills.
We have our daughter in private school which would end if I left.
I don't want our daughter be from a split family as I seen what it did to my son.
I would be scared to date again because of my daughter.
Last two most important to me.

reasons to leave:
I can be a roommate with anyone.
I could find a man that would actually enjoy my company, a man I could have a conversation with and sit with.

I don't know if I just am expecting to much. I know relationships fade after years together. But is this all there is? I find myself thinking a lot about my first marriage lately. We were married for 13 yrs and never lost the passion. We couldn't wait to be near each other. Yes, there were reasons we divorced - his passion included a temper.

But isn't there a good, faithful man out there that I could have the passion with instead of sitting here wanting only for my husband to... well tender ears shouldn't hear. But really we are alone together and nothing. He is just so complacent is this mundane life. Why should I want more?

I am not a fugly woman. Yes I am overweight now - 5'8 at 175# when I was 130# when we met. But hey 1-10 I still think I am a solid 7 maybe 8. And this isn't a sex issue. It is a connection issue. He's a man, of course we still have sex, or I would be suggesting a md instead of counseling. I just don't know what to do about this. He won't go to counseling, or talk to our pastor, he always forgets my suggestions or as of lately when I have tried to sit with him "uh uh you have your own seat". 

I ask if he wants a divorce and he says no, we are in this til we are old and gray, we'll die together. I don't know if I can make it that long. At the very latest when our daughter is on her own but then I will be omg 53 - is that right? I don't feel that. How do you meet someone at that age?

We never had the fire of my first marriage, but we did sit together and do things together. I guess what I am saying is I want cuddling, romance, the pre-sex warmups, at the very least. Although I would love to have fire and passion again! Just not the weekly let's do it and get it over with sex. I would love it every day if he had any interest in me outside the bedroom.

So what do I want from responses besides I am just crazy - suggestions on how to improve the relationship that I haven't already tried. Basically, any experiences that tell me being a single mom with a young daughter isn't everything I fear bad.


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## MyTurn

mijgh,

print what you just wrote here and give it to him.

That will get his attention.


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## Romango

Have you really told him how unhappy you are? That you have thought about leaving him? That you feel like you're just roommates? 

Get his attention. Maybe you need to say it to him exactly like you have here. Whatever it takes to open the lines of communication.


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## mjgh06

Romango said:


> Have you really told him how unhappy you are? That you have thought about leaving him? That you feel like you're just roommates?
> 
> Get his attention. Maybe you need to say it to him exactly like you have here. Whatever it takes to open the lines of communication.


Oh yes, I have in no uncertain terms. I unfortunately have not been blessed with tact and am very to the point type person. I tell him I am not happy that I don't understand how we can be home alone and not even sit together, we don't hold hands walking, there is just no connection. I have asked for it and get no response except for his weekly I want sex but even this no foreplay he just says we haven't had sex in awhile. I have told him I can't go on like this we need to go to counseling. I have said let's talk to our pastor. I have tried to end this several times and he always says he will change or do better and doesn't want divorce, so I stay. I have said I want a divorce. And that for me is major...because I don't want to be a two time divorcee with a young child, on my own again.

Outside of the connection issue, we have a lot of other problems that we discuss and he will say he will do different but then in a couple months we are back at the same argument. He always gripes to me about my son for things his brother does the same and when I point it out then I am the bad guy because I changed the topic away from him griping about my son. 

Example - Last week my son got paid, so he took me to the movies and dinner. My husband brings it up yesterday about why he didn't take him. I explain that my son knows he does't like him drinking and he didn't have the money to pay for both of us. You would think that is acceptable. No he pushes it more and says what about all the times we buy for him. So mommy defensive takes on and I explain we have more money than he does, that he is 22 and likes to drink and I let him where you would lecture him. How does my son taking me to dinner become an argument. I ask what is the difference between that and your brother paying for your lunch? so there begins the big argument.

He is also very childish. Again even though both my son and his brother do this - he was mad at my son for leaving tea bags in the tea pot after making tea. My husband doesn't make tea and doesn't drink tea. Only my son and his brother make or drink tea, and they both will leave the stupid tea bags in the tea pot. Idk and Idc. So my husband checks the mail, and my son has a video game there that he bought with his own money, well mad at my son for the tea thing, my husband takes the game and hides it, then when asked says he doesn't know anything. 

Well, that didn't stop the tea bag issue, so he hides the teapot.  My teapot that my mother gave me as a heirloom to eventually pass down to my daughter. Well we all search for weeks for that teapot and never find it. I thinking that ok maybe one of the guys burned it and threw it away not knowing it was important, go ahead and throw away the lid. For some reason the very next day my husband confesses about the teapot and the video game. I furious explain to him how that what a family keepsake. So he brings it out and then uh oh tries to find the lid for hours. I tell him nope its gone because we all thought the teapot had been thrown away. OMG

Every time I try to talk about these issues, I always end up feeling like the bad guy because he tells me I am wrong for pointing out that his brother does the same things and he doesn't gripe or do this **** with him - only my son. 

I just can't take it any more. I thought this time would be forever. I pray for that. I want it all to be alright and that is why I stay. But the years are just adding up and nothing really ever changes. Kick myself in the ass again. 

I looked online at apartments to see if I could afford them. I actually felt a tinge of happiness. I think I could do it. Just don't know if I should be the one who moves or if I should keep the house. I know if my husband leaves, so will his brother. Our daughter can only remember this house, it is her home. But it is so big and I don't want a big, empty house. I like apartment living with amenities and people. 

So what is best for her and me? See this is what keeps me here. The fear of causing my daughter emotional harm going through divorce. I know millions have divorced and gone on, but I wanted to be that happy ending, that life long commitment where the children grow all the way up with the same two parents in a happy home. SHHH I know we don't have that now, but can't I live in my reality just a little longer? I don't know.


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## tech-novelist

What life lessons are you teaching your daughter by staying with your husband?

You need to get away from that situation.

As for the house, you should live where you are happy. A big empty house isn't it, obviously.


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## Evinrude58

You should go see someone for yourself and talk. I hate telling someone they should divorce because I'm not seeing your life-- just your side.

I will say that him not wanting you to sit beside him EVER is not right. I LOVE snuggling, having my wife sit by me, doing things with her, etc. At least I did before our divorce--- it was due to her infidelity.
Now I'm with someone else and can't keep my hands off her. I only mention that so you know that lots of people want what you want.

Also, there are a LOT of hurt, discarded, desparate people out there at any age that would love to find a woman to love and touch and make love to. Your daughter won't be an obstacle at all to a man who wants you like he should. Just know that you will have a lot of men who will use you for sex if you let them, will see if they like sex with you before they decide for a long term relationship, and the way things are today, not a lot of men want that. You will have to find the ones that do. Dating sites are filled with guys that are looking for love, but love the attention and may have gotten addicted to having attention from more than one woman.
But I found my lady on one and i treasure her, so it's possible.

Your life is not over. It may be just beginning a new chapter that more exciting and fulfilling.

May I suggest telling your husband that you feel unloved, what is he willing to do about it, and if he's not wanting any affection, why? And tell him if he is unwilling to sit by you, then you will likely wind up divorcing and finding someone that will show you a little affection? All you can do is be honest, and see what he says and does. If he won't see where he's not fulfilling your needs and not really wanting to change, you have a right to divorce and find happiness. Just remember that happiness is only found in yourself. Nobody else can make you happy but you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 225985

OP, I originally was going to challenge you on why you married him and stayed married to him for TWELVE years and now all of a sudden you are unwilling to put with him. He is the way he is, as are you. You dealt with it for all these years. 

However I understand your need for something more in your life. The 40's are a time many of us re-evaluate our lives and decide we are no longer happy and no longer can accept the status quo. I am in that place too. I am older than you, not yet 53. BTW, 53 does not mean life is over and you will be surprised how much attraction you can get from quality men. 

But after reading the story of the teapot and the video game your desire to leave is even more understandable. That is no way to live. 

Did he really do that?? WTF?? What a mean, controlling personality!!!!

BTW, does you son still live with you and is he making efforts for financial independence? I could not follow the story about the brother. It is your HUSBAND'S brother and does he live with you?


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## JohnA

First up: can you fully write out your husbands viewpoint about your son ? Are you hearing and listening to him? If you can't then that explains why he is shutting down emotionally. Can you see you choosing to go out with your son without him tells him where he ranks in your life? 

How often does this occur on a weekly, monthly basis ? Why couldn't you have suggested a different event the three of you could share ? Does your son support your marriage? 

Two things to consider, first if he expects you to reject your son and choose him - he is insane. 
Second, sometimes if you want someone to share your viewpoint you have to understand their's first.


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## mjgh06

Evinrude58 said:


> May I suggest telling your husband that you feel unloved, what is he willing to do about it, and if he's not wanting any affection, why? And tell him if he is unwilling to sit by you, then you will likely wind up divorcing and finding someone that will show you a little affection? All you can do is be honest, and see what he says and does. If he won't see where he's not fulfilling your needs and not really wanting to change, you have a right to divorce and find happiness. Just remember that happiness is only found in yourself. Nobody else can make you happy but you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have told him point blank, I have tried making the effort myself by holding his hand as we walk into stores, or rubbing his knee while he's driving or sitting beside him. But it is always me doing and nothing changes. I am happy with myself and no I can be happy without him. My rope that holds me back is my daughter and her well-being is what keeps me here in this relationship. 

After my 1st debacle of a marriage - I made a mental list of what I believed was most important in a man. #1 no abuse, #2 a hard worker/provider, #3 a good father.

There isn't any physical abuse, He is a very hard worker and provider. He is a wonderful father to our daughter. I just forgot to put my needs on the list and settled for a loveless, passionless man.


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## mjgh06

blueinbr said:


> BTW, does you son still live with you and is he making efforts for financial independence? I could not follow the story about the brother. It is your HUSBAND'S brother and does he live with you?


We have a huge 4bd home and both my son and my bil live with us. They share a separate living room than ours. They are another story altogether.

My son was 10 when we got together. He couldn't handle my husband's controlling nature and went to live with his dad at 15. He moved around for a few years with family and has been back here for a year now. He has a job and pays rent, but he doesn't have transportation yet so I drive him.

The bil has been with us for 9 yrs when his dad moved him out. He has always lived with us or his dad. Never really here though. He has a job and pays rent and spends most of his time fishing or whatever he does. Idk.


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## mjgh06

JohnA said:


> First up: can you fully write out your husbands viewpoint about your son ? Are you hearing and listening to him? If you can't then that explains why he is shutting down emotionally. Can you see you choosing to go out with your son without him tells him where he ranks in your life?
> 
> How often does this occur on a weekly, monthly basis ? Why couldn't you have suggested a different event the three of you could share ? Does your son support your marriage?
> 
> Two things to consider, first if he expects you to reject your son and choose him - he is insane.
> Second, sometimes if you want someone to share your viewpoint you have to understand their's first.


My husband works every other weekend now that he is off overtime. My husband was working that Friday night. I think in the past year, my son has taken me out two or three times. My husband knew about it before it happened and after. But I don't think I needed his permission to go out with my son.

As far as what I hear my husband say about my son - We were driving home and out of the blue he asked why my son didn't take us both out. If you are asking what he felt or why he asked, I know he feels like he doesn't have a relationship with my son. He has told me that and it bothers him. But he is the only one that can change it. He damaged that relationship years ago when we first got together. He jumped in the home and thought he was going to rule the roost. He would be childish and spiteful just as he did with the teapot and hide my son's xbox, clothes, school books, etc whenever he was mad. He even hid my son's coat in winter once and I had to go buy a new one. 

Yeah I don't know why I stayed. I read that and think "you dumbaxx"

No, my son does not support my marriage. He supports me and wants me to be happy, but he sees that I am not. But he doesn't interfere with it.

I have tried to understand him but I don't. I don't see the difference between my husband and his brother going to have lunch together every day when he worked in town and not taking me when he had to drive by the house to pick up his brother for lunch; and my son taking me out every once in awhile. 

I don't see the difference between his brother leaving teabags in the teapot and my son doing it but only my son is retaliated against.

I just can't fathom some of things he does or says. There are days where I truly love him and want to work it out no matter what. Bt there are more and more days where I think hell with this.


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## jld

Do you have a job, OP? You need one. And you need a divorce.

Hiding a teapot? Seriously?

You, like many women, are living with a man-child. And your daughter is growing up believing this is normal.

You know the fault is not with you. And you cannot fix this. Your husband is not receiving your influence.


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## mjgh06

jld said:


> Do you have a job, OP? You need one. And you need a divorce.



No, unfortunately I do not work. I was a exec making good money and there were issues so I quit. I have been stay-at-home mom now for five years. 

I thought about going back to work and maybe that would help. But I know my personality - I would be around people and in my current mindframe I would end up seeking out attention. 

I don't believe in affairs, so that wouldn't happen but the thoughts would be just the same. I believe if it is over, end it before an affair happens, not have an affair which will end it. You don't do that to someone you have loved or say you love. Had it done to me and that is worse than leaving.

Yes, it is scary to think about going back to work but I know I can do it. Life will change a Lot. That is what scares me. I was self-supportive, currently I am not. My daughter has gotten used to mommy home and daddy here. Everything would change so abruptly! No wonder why so many kids suffer in divorces. Their whole world is turned upside down. My daughter would go from being an innocent, spoiled, young girl to growing up and being in public school system which to me is horrible idea. Maybe I should just stay unhappy for her to be happy. I don't know.


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## jld

mjgh06 said:


> No, unfortunately I do not work. I was a exec making good money and there were issues so I quit. I have been stay-at-home mom now for five years.
> 
> I thought about going back to work and maybe that would help. But I know my personality - I would be around people and in my current mindframe I would end up seeking out attention.
> 
> I don't believe in affairs, so that wouldn't happen but the thoughts would be just the same. I believe if it is over, end it before an affair happens, not have an affair which will end it. You don't do that to someone you have loved or say you love. Had it done to me and that is worse than leaving.
> 
> Yes, it is scary to think about going back to work but I know I can do it. Life will change a Lot. That is what scares me. I was self-supportive, currently I am not. My daughter has gotten used to mommy home and daddy here. Everything would change so abruptly! No wonder why so many kids suffer in divorces. Their whole world is turned upside down. My daughter would go from being an innocent, spoiled, young girl to growing up and being in public school system which to me is horrible idea. Maybe I should just stay unhappy for her to be happy. I don't know.


I would really encourage you to find a self-supporting job, OP. Six years is not long. You need to think of an independent future for yourself.

And stop seeking him out. Live like a widow. Get used to that kind of independence. It will be emotionally freeing.


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## JohnA

Thank you for answering. At the very least it would seem your husband is very insecure. His need to rule the roost points in that direction. Being a BS I deeply appreciate your self awareness and commitment to "avoid the near occasion of sin".

If this marriage is going to survive i think it will come down to you fixing his issues. Let me be clear i am not saying learn to live with or accept his behavior. Instead I am thinking along the lines of if a spouse has a drinking problem, don't keep alcohol in the house except or special occasions. 

So, if I am right about his insecurities do you have any idea what might be driving them? The other major issue I see is he doesn't know how to fight so instead he hides teapots. You should consider MC even if you are the only one to go.


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## mjgh06

JohnA said:


> Being a BS I deeply appreciate your self awareness and commitment to "avoid the near occasion of sin".


John, what is a BS? I can't figure it out.


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## JohnA

Betrayed Spouse. Here is a link http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/32002-welcome-tam-cwi-newbies-please-read.html

Also using the @with-user-name notifies that poster you mentioned them or quoted them. So you would be @mjgh06. Did you see a notification note on the top of the page?


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## mjgh06

@JohnA
Thank you for the info/link. Sorry that you are a BS. 

I always have told myself only two things could cause me to get a divorce. #1 abusive to me or children, #2 affairs

As my husband has done neither, it leaves me in limbo. I am fighting myself really. I have to answer this question - Do I put my happiness above my daughter?

Would you? There has been no abuse, no cheating. There just isn't any connection. I have been unhappy with this for a looooooongg time now. Yes it is getting worse recently only because two of my bubbles have been burst within the last month.

This is my husband's 2nd marriage as well. Before we met he had had a drug and alcohol problem and cleaned up. For our entire time together from when we met, I had thought it was due to his 1st divorce and then his mother dying soon after. After his divorce he lived with his mom to take care of her because she had cancer, and he was with her when she died. 

He recently told me that it had nothing to do with either. He just did the drugs and had always drank. He stopped drinking after his divorce but the drugs didn't stop until he met me. Bubble 1 blown away. I don't know where I got the idea of it stemming from his mom dying. I thought he had told me that, but he says he didn't. And no he doesn't do drugs or drink at all. I know him well enough to know that. He's not having affair either.

Also when we met, he was attending his family church. My christian beliefs are a big part of who I am and I took that as a sign of an upstanding man - devoted to his mom, heartbroken over death, and a good Christian. We have had so many discussions about our beliefs and with his work schedule he always said he missed getting to go to church and wanted to get back into the routine of it and he regretted never having been baptized. 

We have been attending the church I go to when he has Sundays off and we had talked about becoming church members and baptism. He atttending the meeting with the pastor and told him he wanted to become a member and be baptized. When it was time to do so and the pastor called us up in front of the congregation to become members, he hesitated and whispered he wasn't feeling well and wanted to do it later. I gave him the look like 'hey everyone is expecting us to walk up there' so he did. 

Now two weeks later last night, I reminded him that we were to go to church service early to set a date for his baptism. He tells me no, that the pastor said he could do it when he felt like it. I didn't push the subject and dropped it. Bubble 2 burst.

It's like I don't know the man I married and everything I thought that for me was big is gone. I could overlook all the small nuisances and childish acts of married life because I held these false beliefs about who he was. 

He is still a good man who works hard, provides for his family, is faithful. But the reality is if I had known these things in the beginning, I know we would not be together now. I wouldn't have started even dating him. 

I think he is as unhappy as I am in the marriage. How could he be happy? I think we both are asking ourselves the same thing-
Do I put my happiness above my daughter's?

Would you?


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## jld

OP, affairs are one example of betrayal. But there are other forms of betrayal, too. I bet you can think of several ways your husband has betrayed you in this marriage.


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## JohnA

I would not pull the trigger yet. A pet expression of mine is: the past is our future, unless we change it. So first I would look at my parents and her parents. I would look at their life experiences, and at their past relationship issues. Then I would look for unspoken and hidden assumptions. 

I suggest you need to take the lead here. The two most commonly recommended books are His Needs - Her Needs and 5 love languages. 5LL has a web page Home | The 5 Love Languages® | Improving Millions of Relationships? One Language at a Time.. I also remmenber a book back in the day "men are from Mars - women are from Venus. I didn't read it put it's thrust was pitch perfect. The author or the book would say you need to be cheerful, affectionate, AND BLUNT - LIKE IN 2 X 4 TO THE HEAD BLUNT.


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## JohnA

@jld did you forget to ask her to consider ways she betrayed her husband?


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## jld

JohnA said:


> @jld did you forget to ask her to consider ways she betrayed her husband?


I doubt she has, John. But you could ask her if you want.


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## JohnA

Bingo


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## ConanHub

I cannot get past what an idiot your husband is.

He is very abusive.

He took a kid's coat in winter huh.

I could fix him in one round.

My second step dad pushed me out the door when I was about 10, naked and wet in a subzero Montana night.

I don't know how long I was out there. My mom found me when she got home. I have no memory of the event.

While what happened to me was worse, your husband reminds me of the same Goddamned attitude.

Dump that sick son of a b1tch and don't worry about your future love life.

Get on your own and improve your life. Become healthy and attractive on your own and you will attract good people.

Take time picking someone. A lot of nice folks have bad pickers.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub

I'd like to hide my boot up his ass.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mjgh06

@JohnA
How have I betrayed him? That is a hard question for anyone to answer because we always feel like we have done everything we could to do right.

Being retrospective, I would say I am too quick to point out flaws. I don't give enough credit for what he does right and tries to do right. Such as being a really good dad. He is wonderful with our daughter to the point of putting her above me. 

My past is my own only judgement on this as I came from a very abusive home life as a child. I mean I actually watched my dad shoot my mom with a BB gun, hang my brother up on the wall by a phone cord and so much more. I witnessed my father having affairs with women that he was proud of doing it. Too much to list. My mom stayed with him for over 15 yrs before she got the courage to leave and it was only while he was out of country. 

So my viewpoint on great father is there is no abuse and he spends time with her playing with toys, board games etc. I think as a father he is great!

That is why I have my lists 1 and 2. Anyways I digress, back to the question.

He helps around the house cleaning, cooking, etc. and I don't praise him enough for it. Mainly because I expect it in an equal relationship. I didn't marry someone to be their maid. But I really do appreciate what he does. Many men don't. 

He says I am always finding faults with him. And I do. There are a lot of women that would love him exactly as he his. I love him, but I can feel myself distancing myself. Always whenever he gets me mad, he knows all he has to do is look into my eyes and kiss me and I will melt - completely forgetting the anger - mostly because I am starved for affection but also because he has such loving eyes. For the first in our relationship that doesn't happen now since my bubbles got burst. 

What was the question? Betrayal - I babied him when we first got together. I was the sole provider and made very good money. He was working a dead end job and had no license. I bailed him out several times for driving without a license. I pushed him to get out of the line of work he was in, get his license fully reinstated, and into a better career field. He did and in the time we have been together went from making min wage to over 50k a year with great benefits. I left my job that was supporting us during this time, used my pension to pay half down for our home, half down for him a new 4d full size truck, me a car, and our daughter's tuition for five years. I still bring in enough from interest to pay over half the bills each month. 

My husband says I think I am so fing perfect. I am not. But I do know he feels I feel that way. Yeah I hear myself still not owning up to anything. Because I honestly don't feel I have done wrong. I ask him and he just shuts down thinking I am being sarcastic, but I am not. I want him to tell me what the problem is, what he feels is wrong and the answer is always, - nothing it's me. So unintentionally I know I make him feel inferior when I should be lifting him up.

I know my response doesn't answer your question but that's all I got. I want him to be the man I need, but he can't change who he is and is that enough? It would be if he would try to work at this with me. But he won't go to counseling, won't talk to the pastor, won't talk to me. We either just end up yelling at each other, resolving nothing, until one of us just gives in and gives up without resolution. And most of the time the arguments are over little trivial stuff that doesn't matter which then blow up into big ones. And no I am not the one who throws up the past...that would be my husband when he sees he's losing the argument he will bring up something from months to years ago that we fought over that I don't remember and I just blank out. end game, he won.


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## mjgh06

intheory said:


> And at 5'8" and 175#, you are 20-40#'s overweight (depending on your body type). Not my concern, and maybe you carry it in an hourglass shape and have good overall health.
> 
> But your husband's remark about you not sitting on him, because you have your own chair, suggests a passive-aggressive way of telling you that you are too heavy to sit on his lap. Maybe I read that wrong. I'm just saying what occurred to me. He DOES seem to be passive aggressive; what with hiding teapots and so forth.



Nope not it. I am not heavy enough for him. Before me he dated big women, way bigger than me with bigger boobs as well. He is a T man not an A man. Due to meds, I had gotten up to 247 and he was very happy with my weight. I have lost a lot of the weight now I don't have to take the meds anymore, but seem to be at a plateau right now. So physically I am not his type. 

Oh and I wasn't trying to sit on him, just next to him on the couch.


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## mjgh06

jld said:


> OP, affairs are one example of betrayal. But there are other forms of betrayal, too. I bet you can think of several ways your husband has betrayed you in this marriage.


No, I can't. Besides the lack of affection and now the two false beliefs. I thought we had a very good marriage.


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## mjgh06

JohnA said:


> Then I would look for unspoken and hidden assumptions.


How do you do that? 

From others comments, I am tryng to figure out why he hides things like he does. Usually when confronted he will deny he did it and blow up into a huge argument. But we all know he did and later we will find whatever. He is know for saying 'deny til death' and he means it. I have seen him do something stupid like that with my own eyes, call him on it right then and he will deny it, turn the table on me that I was doing something wrong.


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## jld

mjgh06 said:


> No, I can't. Besides the lack of affection and now the two false beliefs. I thought we had a very good marriage.


This is what I mean, OP:

_"Betrayal in a relationship comes in many forms. There are many ways that we betray our partner: with contempt, with neglect, with indifference, with violence."_ --Esther Perel


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## mjgh06

@JohnA
"Betrayal in a relationship comes in many forms. There are many ways that we betray our partner: with contempt, with neglect, with indifference, with violence." --Esther Perel

Then I am betraying because I am showing contempt and indifference now.


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## ConanHub

Your H is not right in the head.

You suffered through hard abuse and aren't recognizing that your husband is an abuser.

Please leave him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 225985

mjgh06 said:


> No, unfortunately I do not work. I was a exec making good money and *there were issues so I quit.* I have been stay-at-home mom now for five years.


 @mjgh06, did you leave your exec job because you thought you were going down the path of an eventual affair?


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## mjgh06

@blueinbr

No way! That thought has never entered my mind. After seeing my dad with all his fluezies and my ex cheating, not something I would ever contemplate.


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## 225985

Sorry, I did not consider your dad when I asked.

Do you think it is relevant to this discussion as to why you left a high paying position that provided great financial independence for your current situation? 

You seem to be the one that rescued your husband, even gave up good job, and now you are not content with what you have.

I mean no disrespect to you or your decision to do this. Your needs are not being met.


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## mjgh06

@bluinbr

It could be. I left due to mental stress of the job. I was working 60-70hrs a week. I had a TIA was hospitalized and they called me while in the hospital to come into work. That was the end of that.
@JohnA

I just completed the 5 love languages Questionnaire. No surprise to me I am 
#1 Physical Touch
#2 Quality Time
#3 Acts of Service
#4 Words of Affirmation
#5 Receiving Gifts

My husband did the quiz and he got
#1 Acts of Service
#2 tied Words of Affirmation and Physical Touch
#3 Quality Time
#4 Receiving Gifts

I was confused by his result with the Physical Touch as he shows me none. So I asked him if he agreed with his results on the physical touch hoping to start a conversation. His response was I don't need a computer to tell me how I feel. So I asked him how he felt then - his response I don't know. I could only laugh...that helps me how?


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## MRR

JohnA said:


> Bingo


i see what you did there.


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## Romango

mjgh06 said:


> Oh yes, I have in no uncertain terms. I unfortunately have not been blessed with tact and am very to the point type person. I tell him I am not happy that I don't understand how we can be home alone and not even sit together, we don't hold hands walking, there is just no connection. I have asked for it and get no response except for his weekly I want sex but even this no foreplay he just says we haven't had sex in awhile. I have told him I can't go on like this we need to go to counseling. I have said let's talk to our pastor. I have tried to end this several times and he always says he will change or do better and doesn't want divorce, so I stay. I have said I want a divorce. And that for me is major...because I don't want to be a two time divorcee with a young child, on my own again.
> 
> Outside of the connection issue, we have a lot of other problems that we discuss and he will say he will do different but then in a couple months we are back at the same argument. He always gripes to me about my son for things his brother does the same and when I point it out then I am the bad guy because I changed the topic away from him griping about my son.
> 
> Example - Last week my son got paid, so he took me to the movies and dinner. My husband brings it up yesterday about why he didn't take him. I explain that my son knows he does't like him drinking and he didn't have the money to pay for both of us. You would think that is acceptable. No he pushes it more and says what about all the times we buy for him. So mommy defensive takes on and I explain we have more money than he does, that he is 22 and likes to drink and I let him where you would lecture him. How does my son taking me to dinner become an argument. I ask what is the difference between that and your brother paying for your lunch? so there begins the big argument.
> 
> He is also very childish. Again even though both my son and his brother do this - he was mad at my son for leaving tea bags in the tea pot after making tea. My husband doesn't make tea and doesn't drink tea. Only my son and his brother make or drink tea, and they both will leave the stupid tea bags in the tea pot. Idk and Idc. So my husband checks the mail, and my son has a video game there that he bought with his own money, well mad at my son for the tea thing, my husband takes the game and hides it, then when asked says he doesn't know anything.
> 
> Well, that didn't stop the tea bag issue, so he hides the teapot. My teapot that my mother gave me as a heirloom to eventually pass down to my daughter. Well we all search for weeks for that teapot and never find it. I thinking that ok maybe one of the guys burned it and threw it away not knowing it was important, go ahead and throw away the lid. For some reason the very next day my husband confesses about the teapot and the video game. I furious explain to him how that what a family keepsake. So he brings it out and then uh oh tries to find the lid for hours. I tell him nope its gone because we all thought the teapot had been thrown away. OMG
> 
> Every time I try to talk about these issues, I always end up feeling like the bad guy because he tells me I am wrong for pointing out that his brother does the same things and he doesn't gripe or do this **** with him - only my son.
> 
> I just can't take it any more. I thought this time would be forever. I pray for that. I want it all to be alright and that is why I stay. But the years are just adding up and nothing really ever changes. Kick myself in the ass again.
> 
> I looked online at apartments to see if I could afford them. I actually felt a tinge of happiness. I think I could do it. Just don't know if I should be the one who moves or if I should keep the house. I know if my husband leaves, so will his brother. Our daughter can only remember this house, it is her home. But it is so big and I don't want a big, empty house. I like apartment living with amenities and people.
> 
> So what is best for her and me? See this is what keeps me here. The fear of causing my daughter emotional harm going through divorce. I know millions have divorced and gone on, but I wanted to be that happy ending, that life long commitment where the children grow all the way up with the same two parents in a happy home. SHHH I know we don't have that now, but can't I live in my reality just a little longer? I don't know.



From my personal experience OP, the biggest emotional harm is staying in a dead relationship. Your daughter should grow up and see you as a strong woman who believes she is worthy of happiness. Kids are resilient. Be a strong role model for her. 

And its quite clear that at this point, your H doesn't give a toss. It sounds like you are convenient for him. Either that or he's depressed/got some issues he's not talking to you about


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## SunnyT

You have choices. 

1. You change things.
2. You learn to live with things the way they are. 

I see two obvious choices for the first part.... you could separate, go out on your own w/ your daughter. It might wake him up, or it might make you happier than you could have thought. It just might BE the thing. Sometimes marriages need to end. 

You could also do "the 180".... its about being true to yourself, building yourself up. You can take charge of your life WHILE you are trying to decide what to do. And no matter how the marriage turns out, you will have made yourself a stronger person.....which is important for your daughter to see. 

Good luck.


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## mjgh06

SunnyT said:


> You could also do "the 180".... its about being true to yourself, building yourself up. You can take charge of your life WHILE you are trying to decide what to do. And no matter how the marriage turns out, you will have made yourself a stronger person.....which is important for your daughter to see. Good luck.


It is not so cut and dry. This isn't about me being weak minded or being more self-confident. I know who I am and not insecure by any means. My issues with ending a marriage come down to my beliefs and the well-being of my daughter. 

Firstly, I truly believe marriage should be forever and it is a daily process of give and take and working through the ups and downs. But with that said, it has to be a partnership with both working towards the same goals. A cart can't be pulled in two different directions and get anywhere. Right now, my husband doesn't seem to be pulling in the same direction as I am even with me telling him he is going the wrong way. But as we all know time can change things. I am hoping somehow I can find a way to get the communication happening so we can get through this.

Any Star Trek fans?... "I'm giving it all she's got"
@Romango

Secondly, I have been the product of a divorce. My son was a product of a divorce. That would be the last resort I would ever take for my daughter's well-being. For me is a very long thinking process weighing the pros and cons to ensure it is the only viable solution, and there would definitely have to be a lot more pros than cons. I don't believe my unhappiness is a reason to put her through that. Self-sacrifice is just something you do to protect your kids sometimes. We all do it as parents whether it be something small such as not buying a pair of shoes for ourselves to let our child get something they need, or not taking a vacation to have money to send our kids to camp. 

I'm not being stagnant, I am just trying to work this all out in my head. It is something I don't take lightly. Right now, my thoughts are even if I am not getting the attention/love I feel I should be getting, as long as my daughter feels loved and supported she will know how to love and be loved as an adult.  If I choose to have him leave as this is my home that I have paid for, she could think as I did that men just don't stay or resent me for making daddy leave. 

Children can't rationalize the actions of an adult, they just know how it makes them feel. Even with all the abuse i went through and saw as a child, when it was over I felt abandoned and thought "if only I had been a better child..." As I grew up in my teens I had a very distorted image of men and had to work through that crap to understand all men are not like that and my mom wasn't the problem either. For a lot of years I blamed her, blamed myself, blamed my father. Yes I carried a lot of baggage that luckily I have gotten past. I don't want to be the cause of baggage my daughter would carry and given the options I face, I have to figure out which solution will be less baggage. I want her to grow up loving openly and without prejudices built in by experiences that could have been prevented.

I don't think anyone can convince me that children of divorce trust fully and openly as adults.


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## JohnA

Hi, I am impressed he tooked the test. His results did not surprise me. @ConanHub why abusive vs being childish ? @mjgh06, can you see how your past marriage and FOO (family of origin) have shaped you? 

What's your husband's history and how did it shape him? 

I have not read His Needs - Her Needs but those test result sound like they tie right into the book. A great salesperson will tell you being a great talker is not the key to success, hearing and using that info to put yourself into that person's reality is. 

Read @DayOne's thread. It is epic. In many ways your marriage echoes there's. They seem to be doing well. I forget how long they where separated, 6 months or a year. She did a few things right. She moved out (no kids), did not date, and slowly let him back into her life. I am not saying move out, only stand your ground. 

I suspect part of his problem is fear of failing in the marriage, so he fights to the death to win the arguement thinking that if he wins you stay. Works in war, business, bar talk, but not marriage. 

As to my question of how did you betrayed him - couples in your situation often rewrite history. You needed to remember there are two people in the marriage. I thought your answers were fine. But after your review of your husbands history try writing it as if he was writing it about you. Bye the way I am sure your husband would be very hard pressed to name anything more then "I never hit her and I guess I don't drink anymore or do drugs.". Actually pretty poor, eh? 

But he does meet your top two. So read DayOne's thread and see how far a guy can change. Oh, do you ever get the sense your husband think you feel you settled?


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## farsidejunky

The positive in your needs results is that you share many common needs. This will make meeting them easier and more natural, as we all have a tendency to love others in ways we want to be loved until we are shown otherwise.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## ConanHub

@JohnA

Taking a kid's coat in winter?

What type of bullying abusive shythead takes a little boy's coat in winter?

Doing stupid shyt like that would be childish if he did it to his brother but a kid? One he is supposed to be caring for?

You think it is childish for a guardian to take a kid's coat in winter?

Fits my definition of abuse and I am an expert with years of first hand experience.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Vinnydee

I feel sorry for you but your situation is a common one when the flames of love simmer down and matures. My wife and I are in our sixties and we were where you are at a few times in our 40+ year marriage. Whenever we found our need for intimacy waning, we found a way to fan the flames again. One of our favorites was to have two sex nights a week. Attendance was mandatory even if we were not in the mood for sex. We could just sit and talk if we wanted to, dressed or naked, but we had to be there as a show of our love for each other. Eventually we would get intimate little by little over time until we were back to our old selves. Sex produces a hormone called Oxytocin. Most people are not aware of the chemistry of love and sex so they do not know that this hormone is released during sex and lasts for about an hour. Longer in women than men. Its sole purpose is to emotionally bond the couple together. The more sex you have, the more intimate you feel and want to have more sex. The less sex you have, the less you want it or feel intimate. 

This method is a favorite of Psychologist and works for us every time. We usually try a new sexual fetish too in order to keep our sex life fresh. Nothing worse than having sex the same way year after year. After awhile you do not even want it anymore because giving yourself an orgasm by watching porn is easier and more interesting. A husband not sexually interested in his wife, is often so due to making porn his sex life. Just something to think about because my wife had no idea how often men masturbate and look at porn.

We have moved when our lives go boring, tried new sexual fetishes to freshen up our sex life, and did things that most of you might find unacceptable and immoral. We did not let anyone define how to live our marriage. We lived it as we wanted to and that meant doing things that most married people do not do. Many will stick to the way they were told to do marriage than to adapt it to their needs. My wife was always willing to try something new at least once, so that helped. I will only mention this but something like wife swapping with friends kept us horny for many weeks afterwards and our sex was intense and back to where it used to be. Not for everyone either but just one of the many things we tried to keep the spark going in our marriage. On the more conservative side we moved a dozen times when we found ourself bored. It was always exciting to explore a new city, make new friends and try new things. A new house, new cars, and new things to discover was like starting our marriage from the beginning. The point is that we loved each other enough to try new and sometimes unconventional things, to keep its flames high. We both really believed the express that if you love something you set it free. If it comes back then you know it is yours, if not, it was never yours to begin with. That is the beauty of our marriage. We are both free to date and love others and yet we choose each other not out of religious or moral beliefs but because we choose to.

You might also want to consider that love matures and is not as exciting as it used to be when you first married. Libidos change. Most often one or both spouses takes the other for granted. They do not tell their spouses that they love them often enough or let them know that they still are sexy and desireable as they where when you first met. My wife is 64, has wrinkles, sagging skin, and big scars from surgeries. Despite her age and body flaws, I make sure that she feels like the sexiest woman alive. I always hug and kiss her while telling her how hot she is to me. I tell her that I cannot imagine life without her. She knows she is loved and desirable and that makes her happy. When she asked me how can I still find her attractive, I told her that when I look at her I still see the young girl that I married. That and keeping the lights low during sex.  My point is that if you two are still in love, you need to tell each other that every day, and make each other feel desirable and sexy. Lack of that is one of the major reasons women cheat. Don't take each other for granted and you will not have to worry about cheating.

Sorry for the long post but I am very familiar with your problem except for the children part. However, we have known our share of married couples who stay together for the sake of the children but I do not know if that is a good idea these days since half the kids have divorced parents and it is not as traumatic as it was back in the old days when having divorced parents was actually considered a shameful thing and few if anyone you knew, came from broken homes as it was called back then. Often when the parents are unhappy it manifests itself in many different ways and can create an unhealthy environment. Some times divorce, a one time major upheaval, is a better option. Just my opinion from what I have observed from knowing others in your situation. My sister was one of them.

It sounds to me that you are living as just friends. You husband is comfortable having you as a roommate/housekeeper/cook and is not very anxious to divorce and start paying alimony and find another place to live as well as another woman to be his roommate. If you both still love each other there is hope, a lot of hope, but you both have to find a way to bring the intimacy back into your marriage. There is nothing wrong with hanging out as friends. In fact, you should be each other's best friend, but friends who make love as much as they can during the TV commercials. . Try the sex or date night thing I spoke of 500 words ago. It really works if you adhere to it. Get them hormones flowing again and you will find yourselves emotionally bonded again. 

The biggest problem I see is that spouses are not willing to pour out their hearts to each other. I wear my heart on my sleeve and if something is bothering me, I force the conversation because my wife keeps things to herself, or used to. You need to get pass the words and find the psychological or physical reasons for those words. At one time my wife told me that she is not interested in sex but I would not leave it at that. I made her tell me why and she did. She learned she is bisexual late in life and does not like penetration and a few other things we were doing. I also told her a few things that I did not like and what I did like. Once we knew which buttons to push or not to push, sex was fun again and we feel like having it. In fact, we had it twice today because I have been chasing my wife around all week. Not bad for a couple of senior citizens married for over 4 decades and until death do us part, but with lots of passion, intimacy and sex until then. Good luck and if you love your husband, fight for your marriage. Find the real reasons for his behavior and fix it. There is nothing wrong with spending a lot of time with your wife watching TV. We do that and sometimes we hardly talk. We do not need to talk much because the few words we say, says it all.


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## Romango

mjgh06;15071041[USER=233706 said:


> @Romango[/USER]
> 
> Secondly, I have been the product of a divorce. My son was a product of a divorce. That would be the last resort I would ever take for my daughter's well-being. For me is a very long thinking process weighing the pros and cons to ensure it is the only viable solution, and there would definitely have to be a lot more pros than cons. I don't believe my unhappiness is a reason to put her through that. Self-sacrifice is just something you do to protect your kids sometimes. We all do it as parents whether it be something small such as not buying a pair of shoes for ourselves to let our child get something they need, or not taking a vacation to have money to send our kids to camp.
> 
> I'm not being stagnant, I am just trying to work this all out in my head. It is something I don't take lightly. Right now, my thoughts are even if I am not getting the attention/love I feel I should be getting, as long as my daughter feels loved and supported she will know how to love and be loved as an adult.  If I choose to have him leave as this is my home that I have paid for, she could think as I did that men just don't stay or resent me for making daddy leave.
> 
> Children can't rationalize the actions of an adult, they just know how it makes them feel. Even with all the abuse i went through and saw as a child, when it was over I felt abandoned and thought "if only I had been a better child..." As I grew up in my teens I had a very distorted image of men and had to work through that crap to understand all men are not like that and my mom wasn't the problem either. For a lot of years I blamed her, blamed myself, blamed my father. Yes I carried a lot of baggage that luckily I have gotten past. I don't want to be the cause of baggage my daughter would carry and given the options I face, I have to figure out which solution will be less baggage. I want her to grow up loving openly and without prejudices built in by experiences that could have been prevented.
> 
> I don't think anyone can convince me that children of divorce trust fully and openly as adults.


OP... your daughter is FAR better off being a product of divorce than a product of a miserable mother and an abusive father who treats her mother poorly.

I have two daughters and their mother and I are divorced and they have coped very well. They see their mother happy, their father happy and so they are happy.


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## JohnA

Hi Mjgh, how old was your son when your husband took/hid/threw away his coat? What type of language did he or does he use when dealing with your son? (I missed the coat incident when reading your posts. ConanHub maked a good point about hiding a fiat in the winter.)

How does his treatment of your son track with his experience growing up? 

Finally early on you mentioned looking fir apartment, but you just said you own the house. Don't leave !


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## ConanHub

JohnA said:


> Hi Mjgh, how old was your son when your husband took/hid/threw away his coat? What type of language did he or does he use when dealing with your son? (I missed the coat incident when reading your posts. ConanHub maked a good point about hiding a fiat in the winter.)
> 
> How does his treatment of your son track with his experience growing up?
> 
> Finally early on you mentioned looking fir apartment, but you just said you own the house. Don't leave !


The boy was 10 if I recall correctly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub

mjgh06 said:


> But he is the only one that can change it. He damaged that relationship years ago when we first got together. He jumped in the home and thought he was going to rule the roost. He would be childish and spiteful just as he did with the teapot and hide my son's xbox, clothes, school books, etc whenever he was mad. He even hid my son's coat in winter once and I had to go buy a new one.
> .


Her son left when he was 15 and I don't blame him. Who was protecting him from this ******* that thought it was funny to take his clothes, schoolbooks, etc...

He may have been older than 10 with the coat incident but it doesn't change my view of him.

Pretty extensive history of abusing her son.

Yeah OP, you should have damn well left this piece of shyt for his abusive behavior towards your son.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Openminded

I'm sure there are children of divorce who don't trust. But there are children whose parents stay in unhappy marriages that don't trust either. Those children see far more than their parents think. They know something isn't right even if they don't know what that is. And they tend to blame themselves because that's what children do. 

My ex-husband fought divorce for decades (he was a cheater) and I didn't push it because I didn't want my son to grow up in a divorced home (the same excuse my mother had used when I was young and my father cheated). She remained in an unhappy marriage of 45 years until her death. I ended a marriage of 45 years and am now happy. 

I wanted her to get out (and my son wanted me to get out long before I did) but we both stayed because we put our child first. It didn't work the way either of us thought. I feel she made a mistake in staying for me and my son feels I made a mistake in staying for him. I repeated her pattern but he didn't repeat mine and his children are happy and have adjusted well to his divorce. It can be done. 

In a perfect world, your husband would wake up and work hard on his marriage. But it doesn't appear he wants to and obviously you can't change the dynamic of your marriage on your own. Change is very difficult and few manage it successfully long term. Some do wake up -- and do the necessary work -- when the threat of divorce becomes real and not just words. That may be the only way you see if he wants more than a roommate situation.


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## mjgh06

Wow a lot of posts since last night. If I miss responding to any, please tell me.

@JohnA
I know my family past/marriage has made a huge impact on me. After the divorce my mom chose me to confide in about things a parent should never say to a young child. I was 12 when my mom started telling me how men are evil and they would hurt you and do things to you. She would tell me to protect myself as she pointed down because men will do things there that will scar you and hurt you. By 15, I turned from the shy innocent girl to a promiscuous bitcx. I played mind games, used people and threw them away as recycables. I had no friends, I had people who thought they were my friends but I was using them as a means to an end nothing more. I drank all the time. I remember I always had a large bottle or two of vodka in my school locker. I hurt a lot of people because I didn't trust anyone or want anyone close enough to me that could hurt me emotionally. After three years of this lifestyle, I just wanted everything to end and contemplated suicide. Instead I chose to go to a therapist. I learned how to cope and deal with my issues, but having a daughter changed that again for me. My protectiveness is full force with her. No I would never tell her those stories and I am not to an extreme overprotective. I do limit her time with my mom though and have already had to counteract some crap she has tried to feed her. I want my daughter to grow up without all that bs on her so she can have healthy, normal relationships.

As for my husband's history: My husband didn't come from an abusive home, but a drug home. I remember hi telling me his dad and uncles were big pot dealers in the 70's not now and he would help them fill those huge peanut bags full. His parents divorced when he was in his tweens because his dad found someone new and it split the family up. His brother and sister lived with his dad and stepmom, he lived with his mom. He was happy in his first marriage with two children and fought the divorce even though she had cheated on him several times and had a baby from another man while they were married. He lived with his mom after his divorce and watched her as she progressed through cancer and then died. 

I met him through his sister. Funny thing was me and his sister lived across from each other and I knew her, his brother, and his mom, but had not met him. I had even asked his brother out once because he had a daughter near my son's age and was divorced, but we never went out. I finally met my husband one day when he was installing carpet at his sister's. 



> I suspect part of his problem is fear of failing in the marriage, so he fights to the death to win the arguement thinking that if he wins you stay. Works in war, business, bar talk, but not marriage.


I think you hit the nail here.



> But after your review of your husbands history try writing it as if he was writing it about you.


I think my husband would say 'She came from a very abusive home and after her parents divorced, her mom filled her head with some crazy ****. I wouldn't ever do that crap to her and her mom better not try to put that in our daughter's head.


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## mjgh06

@Vinnydee
Thank you so much for your post. 
I don't think my husband has a porn issue, but I know he has some issue. He is old-fashioned as they say and would not be into trying anything different. I think you are right that we both are just living as roommates and he seems fine with that. 

I am so happy that you and your spouse have stayed together this long and together you have been willing to do whatever it takes to make it work. I guess my 'ideas' about men always keep me wondering what the hell is wrong with me when my husband a man is so close-minded and non-affectionate. Men should want it and if they had a wife saying hey if you just held my hand or let me sit next to you, we would be making boom chicka bang bang in every way. Why would he not want that? It must be me.


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## mjgh06

@JohnA
@ConanHub

I have talked with my son about what I am debating now trying to get his input as to how D affected him versus staying unhappy married. He says he suffered a lot at first when his dad and I divorced, but he got over it. He was 9 when we divorced. I asked him would he rather have had us stay together with me unhappy. He said he never knew it was that way. In his eyes we were a happy family and that is why it hurt him when we divorced and moved out. Back then he said yes he would have wanted us to stay together. Now it's okay. 

Yes, I agree when this all started with the issues my husband had with my son I should not have stayed. My reasons then were similar now - I don't want to have failed twice. I want a long standing marriage. The common denominator here is me. So maybe I am the cause and just can't have a normal, good relationship. Maybe that is what I am not willing to face.

Reading back through some of my posts, I sound like a sex-crazed maniac... I am not. I don't want anyone to think this is all about the sex because it isn't. I need affection from the man I love to feel like I am wanted and loved. Passionate sex after to me is an added benefit. None of which I am getting so you can say I am starved for affection which may give a false impression.


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## mjgh06

ConanHub said:


> He may have been older than 10 with the coat incident but it doesn't change my view of him._Posted via Mobile Device_


My husband would adamantly deny any of this happened, and somehow turn it on you as your memory is messed up and you did something wrong. Even if you saw him do it, he can somehow make you believe you didn't see what you saw. So I agree that is emotional abuse and he is an expert at it. That is how I stayed through. I always had doubts that maybe he didn't do it. Years now have passed and I can see the patterns and know better.


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## JohnA

Hi, I am sorry, but I worded my request poorly for what I wanted you to try to do. So, let me try again. First carefully review your husband's history from how it effected him emotionally and how that shaped his current behavior. I see two things that jump out at me. First the split family and second his first wife's adultery. 

I know that it seems strange I am focusing in on him like I am. The thing is right now only one person is aware (or willing to admit) there is a problem in your marriage. So many posters here are blindsided by their spouses behavior when in hindsight you just want you say duhhhn. One of you needs to see both sides of the coin and attempt to fix it or just divorce. Please see this link for adultety can effect a person and see what applies to your husband. http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/306482-whats-worst-thing-about-infidelity.html I recall my mother saying that their are times in a marriage one spouse needs to step up and carry the other. She was referring to the situation you are in right now. 

Bye the way how old was your son when the coat incident occurred ?

Finally to be clear: nether marriage or civilization are sucide pacts. It is one thing to toil to achieve either, it is another to lose yourself.


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## JohnA

Just thought of a good example of how the past effects the present. Their is a poster orange_something on this board. She to came from a highly abusive home. Her father was a drunk. He drink, come home beat his wife then beat the kids. She has a major problem with her husbands drinking especially at his family events. He can't understand why she triggers and wants a divorce. It seems clear to me why this is a problem for her and he should get a clue. 

I know she has posted a lot of follow ups and separated but I stop following her story. But, I see the problem with him is hen refuses to see her reality and SOMETIMES in a marriage on an issue like this you modify your behavior.


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## JohnA

Guess I am on a bit of a roll. One more point about your heavier weight. Does he find it attractive or does it make him feel more secure you will not cheat on him (ie the less attractive you are sexually to men the better)


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## mjgh06

@JohnA

I looked over the linked post. I know my husband was devastated by his adulterous 1st wife. My biggest fault is that I emotionally detach very easily and listen from outside the box. I don't accept that the past controls us. It doesn't. I've been through a lot more crap than most and dealt with it. Yes, as a teen I was screwed up. But I grew up and know people control their own actions and they have no power over making others happy or not. We each choose every day how we feel or deal with our lives. My ex cheated and at no time did I believe it was my fault or made me less than who I was. He chose that path and I never looked back. 

I guess I am too self-confident at times, have lack of compassion and am a very logical type person. I can sympathize but I am going to say it blunt, straight to the point. Not like my ramblings here. I type a lot more than I speak. I am not the typical women who talks and only wants someone to listen. I always had more guy friends - honestly all guy friends because I relate better with them. Talk, find a solution. No drama. I say what I got to say and move on.

I wish I could have him read and be a part of this post. But I know his response would be first - Let's divorce and then it would turn into him saying how I always find fault with him, and then saying yes he is to blame and he will do better, how he changed a lot already and so on and so forth. Then he will get angry again because I most times just remain calm and listen and it starts over with let's divorce. This would continue until I finally just am exhausted from going nowhere and tell him okay its me I am sorry just stay. We never get past this ever. Nothing is ever resolved. I just want him to hear what my issues are and offer a solution, not go on a tangent about how horrible a person he is and why am I even with him. Yes, he probably does this because of his past. Which usually pisses me off because then I see him as weak and like I said I have no compassion. I want to scream stop being a whiner and just man up and get over it already. I'm not attacking you, I am trying to deal with the problem.

If this scenario wasn't me, I would be telling the op to separate and start there.

As for the weight, I think he just likes big women. Oh, and my son was 12 when the coat happened.


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## 225985

mjgh06 said:


> Any Star Trek fans?... "I'm giving it all she's got"


And how many times did the ship blow up? What letter are they up to? Each time the ship blew up it was like a divorce, or a new marriage, depending on your point of view.

The ship still blew up several times, despite "I'm giving it all she's got". And despite the old ship blowing up, they were very happy to get the new ship.


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## mjgh06

Your mother sounds pretty smart John. 

I have never given my husband any reason to feel I would step out on him. I think we are both secure in the fact that we are both faithful and would be faithful. 

His issues with insecurities even if I wanted to help I couldn't. That is something only the person can deal with on their own or through counseling - which he refuses to go to. You can only carry a person so far, before they have to do the work on themselves for themselves.


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## JohnA

Hi, the past is our future, unless we change it. You are, he is not. 

Why did he stay with his mother and not go with his father like his brother and sister did. Again I am asking because he is not here and you have both a high degree of seif-awareness and ability to share it. 

I really think a structured separation is the way to go. Did you read @DayOne's threads?


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## mjgh06

@JohnA
I have started reading DayOne's. Where is the post for the 180? I searched and see references all over the place but can't find a detailed description if it on here. I would like to read it. 

Still couldn't find anything here on TAM with a list of it. So I searched online and found some info. Most I can easily do, but would have to make adjustments as we have our daughter to think of first. I also ran across a 180 christian program site called New Beginnings that I may get to give to him. Maybe it will help him work through some of his issues. I looked over their programs and will be getting the parenting one for myself.

I am not even going to discuss anything with him until later in March unless he starts asking questions about why I am distant. My reason for this is our daughter's bday is coming up and I don't want her memory to be that's the month my parents separated. I am hoping he will be willing to do the program study. Past history offers me little to no expectation of him doing so though. 

I hate this. I don't want this. But I am reading and seeing that separation may be the only way to get us connected again. The ball will be in his court on that. He has to make some effort to show me he still wants a real marriage and not just someone to share the bills with.

edited to add in: This week, I will be looking into getting IC again for myself.


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## mjgh06

Went and took the personality test just for s&gs- 
Yep, I am INTJ-ARCHITECT. 
Mind - 69% introverted
Energy - 54% Intuitive
Nature - 81% Thinking
Tactics -78% Judging
Identity - 60% Assertive

Reading the description, it fits me to a T.


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## mjgh06

JohnA said:


> Why did he stay with his mother and not go with his father like his brother and sister did.



He felt betrayed and abandoned by his father. He was angry with him and wanted to protect his mother. He didn't have much of a relationship, if any with his father for years. When we met, that all started to change and eventually it has improved to where he now willingly visits his father every week.


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## mjgh06

Looking over my posts, I realize I was in a much better place head-wise than my husband when we got together. He has come a long way since then. All the recent events brought back issues with him that I thought we had dealt with already. I catch myself doing that now with the teapot/game issues. After the initial blow up -we don't talk about it, he acts his normal self and I start to forget and we go on day-to day until the next crisis. 

I have been thinking of the future and what options there are and what the outcomes would be. My current thoughts - Yes, my H is childish and doesn't show affection. Compared to others here my problem is minute. So, I think I may have been wrong for making this such a big issue. I shouldn't be making a mountain out of a molehill. I don't have it rough and besides these little nuisances, we are very compatible. Just some days more than others. We all have our flaws and no one is perfect. I can live with that. 

Thanks everyone for reading and offering input.


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## mjgh06

Blogging again.... even if no one reads or responds. It helps me get it out of my head.
I hate the way my mind works sometimes, most of the time. I am always doing a back and forth debate with myself. Going over everything, trying to see all the what if's and possibilities and future results. I wish for one day I could live in the moment. But I know for me that only leads to self-destruction. So I continue on with this craziness in my head.

Our daughter has school orders - fundraisers- going on and they are finishing them Friday. My H graciously took forms to work for people to order from. It takes 24hrs at the least to get any product back and so today is last day to order anything. He gives me the form yesterday morning. I talk to him last night and explain that without the money for the orders, we would have to come out of pocket for it all ourselves and we don't have it so he has to go tell everyone that they won't get their orders. He then tells me they paid him. What !?! Why did you not give the money with the form so I could have it done then. Response - we'd talk about it later. So this morning, I bring it up as to why he didn't give the money. Response 'I forgot'. and still doesn't give me the money! Whatever.

I finally opened up and talked to my mom about some of the issues we have been having lately - ie teapot/game above... Her response was something is going on with him. He must be unhappy. She asks me when it began. I get to thinking and I had previously thought about a month now with the whole issue of him telling me the truth about his past etc (didn't tell my mom about that).

But then I am thinking more -trying to figure it out and a revelation came to mind - (after reading here about so many EA's). Awhile back, I don't know, summertime-ish, H asked me a question I thought was stupid that he knew better. He tells me 'Lisa' up at the convenience store asked him to mow her yard. I asked why doesn't she get her H to do it? He tells me they are getting a D, but he would be there. This was my 'you dumb moment' and tell him I didn't think that was appropriate. He tells me he agrees but he would've asked me to come with him. It wasn't nothing. We drop it and go on.

But now I am thinking wait a minute, how does a happily married man even have this conversation with a lady at a convenience store? How do they get to the point - first name basis - and acceptable to ask such a question. Then I think Well back in the day, that would be me hitting on a man trying to feel them out. Then I am back out how do they even know each other's names?? WTF. AM I wrong? Is it normal - okay - for happily married men to be on a first name basis with someone I don't even know. Soon to be Single having such conversations. What else has been said? 

There is definitely something going on with H. I am fearing the worse now thinking EA, and (heart breaking crying) possibly PA.


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## JohnA

Hi Mjgh06, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, sometime it is not. Whatever it is you are spot on to consider it. F-102 posted a great step by step description of how a work place EA occurs. It can easily be edit to fit your situation. Here is the link his post is alf way down: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/41508-emotional-affairs-sob-story.html. 

Copy and paste it into a word doc and edit it and post it here. Finally did you answer my question of why he chose not to live with his father, brother, and sister ?


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## JohnA

Oh here is the link i like for the 180


Critical Readings For Separation and Divorce - LoveShack.org Community Forums


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...-does-not-know-if-she-wants-stay-married.html


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## mjgh06

> f-102 post - Right now, the texts/conversations may very well be just two old friends catching up but soon, if left unchecked, may very well morph into:
> 
> Their lives since they parted
> Their relationships since they parted
> Their families
> Their spouses
> You
> How you're an excellent father
> How you're a great husband
> How you're a wonderful guy
> Your job
> How your job keeps you busy
> How your job keeps you away
> How she sometimes feels a little lonely when you're away
> How she sometimes feels a little overburdened at home
> How she sometimes feels a little taken for granted
> How she feels that you don't ALWAYS listen to her
> How she feels that you don't ALWAYS understand her
> How she feels that sometimes you're just "not there" for her
> How, okay... you're not ALWAYS such a wonderful guy
> How she loved hearing from him again
> How she looks forward to his texts/calls/e-mails now
> How she feels young again
> How she feels appreciated again
> How she feels attractive again
> How it's so nice to have someone who just LISTENS to her again
> How it's been so, so long since you made her feel that way
> How her eyes have now been opened
> How she now realizes what she truly wants and needs
> How she now realizes that you could NEVER give her that
> How insensitive you can be some times
> How you can be a real jerk sometimes
> How she wonders if they would have stayed together
> How she now realizes that she never really loved you
> How she now realizes that she really loved him all along
> How she ever could have fallen for a jerk like you
> How you're the biggest a++hole she's ever known
> How you're standing in the way of her true happiness
> How you ruined her life
> How she made a big mistake marrying you
> How she made an even bigger mistake letting him go
> How now she sees that they were really meant to be together
> How she desperately has to get away from you
> How she's definitely going to leave you
> How she's talking to divorce lawyers
> How they're going to live happily ever after...


In my head, and it can go to strange places, here is my unsubstantiated version of events:
Casual Conversation with convenience store clerk - the normal Hi, Bye (this happened)
Her talking to him about her H and possible D (this happened)
Him talking to her about us (this happened)
?during which time she is flirting with him
Her talking to him about getting D (this happened)
? during which time she is flirting with him and now he is becoming the leaning post because she sees him as a good man
? They both talking, flirting, et al
Around this time our arguments are increasing (this happened)
(? due to him thinking about possibilities)
Her asking him to mow yard for her (this happened)
(? as a way to see how into her he really is)
Him leading her on to say it may be possible (this happened)
Around this time during which time lack of affection towards me starts (happened)
? Him feeling guilty 
Told me story above (happened)
lack of affection towards me increases/arguments increase (happened)
Go to 'his dads' to mow his yard on several occasions without me when he usually just drops it off (happened)
End of Dec/Jan - he busted my bubbles about his past and who he is about church, drug history etc...(happened)


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## mjgh06

JohnA said:


> Hi Mjgh06, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, sometime it is not.


This isn't a cigar. I don't know if I was taking stupid pills or what when he 1st asked me this question. Normally that would have sent my radar up to red.

We are talking convenience store like a Shell or 7-11. You go in, you pay, you leave. For this to have come up, there have had to been conversations, multiple. 

Roles reversed, I would expect H to have been totally pissed off with me. It's not something I would ever do. To me it's kin to babysitter syndrome. This wasn't an old friend, so a relationship was built. One where the woman who knew he married, lived at home with W and child, seen me on several occasions with him, seen me in store without him and only had the Hi and Bye for me thought it was appropriate to ask my H to go to her house. and my H thought it was appropriate to entertain the idea.
Happy Bliss will kill you. I should know better than to let down my guards. I've gone through this with my 1st with his coworker. Why didn't I catch this????


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## mjgh06

This post Low Conflict Marriage is helping me so much. I feel for his pain but his willingness to stay for his daughter is exactly how I feel. 

Marriages today start with two broken people already carrying baggage from their pasts. As another poster remarked 'no one is thinking about the kids' in D. I see that as the reason so many adults grow up with baggage already attached. To stop abusive families, you have to stop the cycle. So to stop the cycle of baggage carrying adults - in marriage and especially thinking about D, we must think of the kids first, not ourselves.

So as it is, my daughter is a happy, well-adjusted child who is very much spoiled. Although I need to work on the spoiling part, staying ensures she doesn't become an adult with all the crazy baggage we have now. Yes, she may have some issues as an adult. Life gives us that. But as a parent can I see myself intentionally being the cause of even a small amount of it? Never. D would cause damage - sometimes irreparable. 

I choose to end the cycle.

Is it going to be a long, hard road? I am sure it is. Will I have many more lonely nights? Of course I will. Will my daughter ever know how unhappy I was in this? Before she gets married, I will sit down and talk to her openly and honestly, but not while she is still a child. Children need to have that wide-eyed, full of hope view of the world - not scarred ideas of what life should have been.


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## Grogmiester

@mjgh06

When I read through your postings what jumps out at me is that you're living a life with several different families under one roof, you a and your son, h and brother, you h d, etc etc.

Your son and bil are adults. If they were not ther, how do you think things would change? What would your life with you h and d be like?

I would hope your s and bil would eventually get married or move out on there own. I agree the interaction between you're s and h is just wrong (your h is being childish) but I wonder if it's worth you taking on to fix something like this. Many step children and step parents butt heads and it's not good but sometimes it happens. I'm not trying to rug sweep the problems but just thinking outside the box. Some step children never get along with their step parent and vise versa. 

Your last post mentions possible missing money from your d school fund raiser. Hmmmmm makes me wonder where the $'s went. I guess you'll find out soon enough. 

Your s and bil are paying your rent. Could you afford to loose this income if they were to move out?


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## mjgh06

@Grogmiester

Both my son and bil only barely pay enough to feed them and the increase in their utilities, not really rent per se. I wish I had their setup...lol Financially I think we would actually be better off if they weren't here, or we increased what they had to pay. Some months we are paying for them to live. The biggest issue with both of them is that we do it all. Neither of them clean up after themselves or help out here. Tbh where can you find room, board, chef, laundry service, transportation service, maid service all for $200 per month. The each eat that per month and have no other expenses. I want that!! We are enabling them and they are taking advantage of us. 

My mom asked me the same thing about having them leave - but reality is they both either stay in their rooms or are gone a lot. The only time we see either of them is around dinner time occasionally. For me if my son left, I would be worse off emotionally. My H works 3rd shift so I feel safer having him here, and some nights my son will actually get off his xbox to come out and spend time with me and his sister. 

Eventually I know/hope my son will be have a stable job and move out to start his own life. I don't think bil will ever leave. We inherited from his dad's house. He had no where to go, so he came here. I am a sad sap of a person always wanting to help and fix others. My H says I have turned him that way. I just believe we only have one life to get this thing right and if we can, we should be helping others while we are here. Lost causes please do not show up at my door...lol


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## JohnA

Hi, in the end you need to make the decisions in your life. All others can do is to suggest things that need to be considered and possible ramifications. The call is your's. I do think you are being "aware". You are considering and are considering future actions. 

While I do see in many ways how an EA or PA are the same, somehow a PA hits harder. 

In any event if you chose to end the marriage I think you have acted responsibly. If you chose to stay for the time being. but demand accountability and an ongoing change in and growth of the marriage I think that is fine too. In some ways I think you are actually in a great position to achieve a great marriage, if he can grow. 

If you do end the marriage I think your husband in the end will disappear from your's and your's daughter's life. So I think you might be in the strange position to demand a divorce and he stay in your daughter's life and actually holding his feet to the fire for years. Strange, but truth at times is stranger then fiction.


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## JohnA

Oh could I get a link to the christian 180 and the other Sg? Site.


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## mjgh06

JohnA said:


> Oh could I get a link to the christian 180 and the other Sg? Site.



The Christian based 180 program
http://www.the180program.org/home.aspx


Sg site? Do you mean the ones with the personality quizzes?

Love Language 
Language Profile | The 5 Love Languages®

Personality
https://www.16personalities.com/free-personality-test

@JohnA
In your last post are you saying you believe if we get divorced, I would have to force him to remain part of our daughter's life?


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## JohnA

If necessary make the attempt. My impression of your husband is he has low self-esteem and has a deep seated belief he is doomed to failure in all aspects of life. If you divorce and don't push him to stay in his daughters life he will fall away out of her life. Not because he doesn't care for her, but because that is his fate. 

Look at his job history before and after marrying you. Is there any reason he could not have done it before you ? I mean did your dad give him his current job? So, what changed? 

The one thing I see is he does have some sense of fairness and obligation. I say this because he stayed with the mother unlike his siblings. That speaks to me and would give me some pause. (Do you see in some ways he is very different then his siblings?). Agin some pause, as I think what happens either way is justifiable. 

Thanks for the links


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## mjgh06

JohnA said:


> If necessary make the attempt. My impression of your husband is he has low self-esteem and has a deep seated belief he is doomed to failure in all aspects of life. If you divorce and don't push him to stay in his daughters life he will fall away out of her life. Not because he doesn't care for her, but because that is his fate.
> 
> Look at his job history before and after marrying you. Is there any reason he could not have done it before you ? I mean did your dad give him his current job? So, what changed?
> 
> The one thing I see is he does have some sense of fairness and obligation. I say this because he stayed with the mother unlike his siblings. That speaks to me and would give me some pause. (Do you see in some ways he is very different then his siblings?). Agin some pause, as I think what happens either way is justifiable.
> 
> Thanks for the links


Thank you. I hadn't thought of how a D would affect him. I can see how it could go that way looking at his past. He had little contact with his two daughters from his previous marriage until after we got together. Over the years he has attempted to build relationships with them, but because he wasn't in there lives much after the divorce it has been a hard road. He continues to make the effort, calling them at least once a week, even if he gets no response.

No, he got his current job on his own. He was doing great job/career wise in a grey collar job while married to his first wife. Then after the divorce and until we met, he held min-wage blue collar job. I encouraged him to take some job skills courses, and helped him with interviewing techniques, building a resume, etc. Over the years, he has been able to transition back into a grey collar field. That is about as far as he can go without continued education which would be a problem for him. Not that he isn't intelligent enough, he doesn't have the focus to do so, or the time with his current hours. I had started discussing with him accredited online schools or at home education. He seemed interested is pursuing that, but has not mentioned it recently.

I think now and before me, he is definitely different than his siblings. He has the desire/capability to be a provider and diligent worker whereas his siblings don't stay long at any job and don't seem to want to either. He seems to want more from life than they do. His attitude towards goals in life was one of the reasons I fell in love with him. With the changes in him recently, I guess I have been mostly questioning if that was how he really felt, or if I was pushing him to see things that way. Was it all for show? I don't know.

As for fairness, he sees everything in black and white, right or wrong. I think that is part of the problem with his retaliations - teapot/game. When he feels he has been done wrong, there should be a punishment. I often have to remind him there is a middle ground and life, people are never black/white. In that aspect we are perfect for each other because I help him see there are other possibilities whereas he will bring me back to earth when my mind is off on a tangent.


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## JohnA

Hi Mjgh06, 

Great posts. I think him seeing things in black and white is a result of first a sense of fairness and an outgrowth of his fathers adultery. Does he think his mother got a raw deal? 

In any event it seems you have a tight control of your emotions and are very thoughtful. I see that in many ways you are the one capable of creating the structure and boundaries to make the marriage work or the divorce less destructive. In someways I see the coat and teapot situation as rooted in petulance. He needs to grow up. 

I think in many ways dayone's outcome could be yours if the issue of the EA is settled. By the way I see his actions being that of a beta obiter in this case.


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## mjgh06

JohnA said:


> Hi Mjgh06,
> 
> Great posts. I think him seeing things in black and white is a result of first a sense of fairness and an outgrowth of his fathers adultery. Does he think his mother got a raw deal?
> 
> *Most definitely. He felt that his father betrayed his mother in every way - with the EA, then PA, then D.*
> 
> In any event it seems you have a tight control of your emotions and are very thoughtful. I see that in many ways you are the one capable of creating the structure and boundaries to make the marriage work or the divorce less destructive.  In someways I see the coat and teapot situation as rooted in petulance. He needs to grow up.
> 
> *I agree totally with this statement. I thought we had overcome this issue after the incident with the coat. To my knowledge, he has not acted this way since then until recently.*
> 
> I think in many ways dayone's outcome could be yours if the issue of the EA is settled.
> 
> *We will be discussing all of that fairly soon. I have started getting feedback from him by having him do the personality test, love language, and last night I had him complete the mono quiz.*
> 
> By the way I see his actions being that of a beta obiter in this case.
> 
> *Beta Orbiter - DayOne or my H or me?*


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## JohnA

Your husband. There have been lot of threads on alpha vs beta on this board. In truth most people are a complex stew. I don't think as a rule you can stickily label a person one way or another. How familiar are you with these terms. 

Many of his traits such as petulance is a natural default responses in him. Not to respond in this manner takes an effort of will. If you want to keep the marriage you need develop effective coping mech to snap him out of that cycle. Why is it on you ? Because you can and he can't. Have I seen very good marriages when this is an element, yes. But in every case the "sane" one knows how to handle their spouse and for some reason it is more then worth it to them.


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## mjgh06

JohnA said:


> Your husband. There have been lot of threads on alpha vs beta on this board. In truth most people are a complex stew. I don't think as a rule you can stickily label a person one way or another. How familiar are you with these terms.
> 
> Many of his traits such as petulance is a natural default responses in him. Not to respond in this manner takes an effort of will. If you want to keep the marriage you need develop effective coping mech to snap him out of that cycle. Why is it on you ? Because you can and he can't. Have I seen very good marriages when this is an element, yes. But in every case the "sane" one knows how to handle their spouse and for some reason it is more then worth it to them.


I am familiar with the terms. I don't think of H as an orbiter at all, not now or when we met. He is more of an Alpha for the most part - the loner type with a take it or leave it attitude. He may have been orbiter or puppy dog type as I always called them before his D. I didn't know him then.

I agree about the labels - most people fit criteria within many categories. I don't really pay much attention to the personality tests and such as found online etc... For me they are just a conversation starter. The professional testing is a lot more in depth and take hours to complete. 

With that said, there could be so many reasons for his childish behavior. I have always taken it as stemming from his ingrained view of the world in black and white - a retaliation mechanism to realign things. He has many of the ISTP traits. I don't think I posted his results. Here is a together view of the results:
*H results*
ISTP -T Virtuoso
Mind 86% Introverted
Energy 68% Observant
Nature 60% Thinking
Tactics 78% Prospecting
Identity 68% Turbulant

Love Languages
#1 Acts of Service
#2 tied Words of Affirmation and Physical Touch
#3 Quality Time
#4 Receiving Gifts

*My results*
I am INTJ-A ARCHITECT. 
Mind - 69% introverted
Energy - 54% Intuitive
Nature - 81% Thinking
Tactics -78% Judging
Identity - 60% Assertive

#1 Physical Touch
#2 Quality Time
#3 Acts of Service
#4 Words of Affirmation
#5 Receiving Gifts


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## JohnA

Hi, 

It seem you have a very in-depth perspective on the state of your marriage and the underling dynamics both you and your husband bring into the marriage. Like a chef looking in the frig and panty you know the raw ingredients on hand. Time to deciede what to make and start prepping. 

If you deciede to rebuild the marriage be blunt on the need to do so with hubby offering black and white options.


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## Missmousedancemom

I too sit here alone. He's down stairs. I'm upstairs and my daughter is in her room. I have been home for 2 hours and I got a "hello"
That's all I got today. 
That's all I ever get. 
He's a great father 
He is a horrible silent husband. Been well over 8 years since any touching. 

I too live in silence


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