# words to use to tell my wife I don't want to move out?



## jppaul5280 (5 mo ago)

Wife told me Saturday she wants to split up, then Sunday that I should move out. We have two kids. I'm not ready to move out emotionally or financially.

I want to save my marriage, doing things to that end, I love my wife, but the idea of not living with my kids is causing panic attacks.

So, the next time she asks me to move out, how should I handle it? What should I say and how should I say it?

EDIT: I forgot to mention that her parents own the house

thanks


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

How about: "if you want to someone to move out, you can do it".


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## D0nnivain (Mar 13, 2021)

In the short run, tell her that you need to talk to your lawyer 1st. 

Get somebody to talk to (a therapist) about the panic attacks. Once you & your wife divorce which will happen no matter how much you want to save your marriage because she doesn't, you will have to find new ways to interact with & parent your children. 

Best wishes


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## jppaul5280 (5 mo ago)

leftfield said:


> How about: "if you want to someone to move out, you can do it".


thank you but I don't want to make things worse. I do want to save my marriage


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## CountryMike (Jun 1, 2021)

jppaul5280 said:


> Wife told me Saturday she wants to split up, then Sunday that I should move out. We have two kids. I'm not ready to move out emotionally or financially.
> 
> I want to save my marriage, doing things to that end, I love my wife, but the idea of not living with my kids is causing panic attacks.
> 
> ...


Just say no. She should be the one to move out.
Best you take precautions she doesn't this day clear out any joint cash accounts and close all joint credit card accounts. She WILL take all the family monies trying to get to that before you have a chance to prevent her.

Document, document, document events and dates.

You can do it. Remember, she's shown you your emotions and feelings DO NOT matter to her. You must now accept that as hard as it is. Accept it.
Everything she does now is for herself, not you. Hard to accept but you need to. She'll be playing you, remember that.


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## jppaul5280 (5 mo ago)

D0nnivain said:


> In the short run, tell her that you need to talk to your lawyer 1st.
> 
> Get somebody to talk to (a therapist) about the panic attacks. Once you & your wife divorce which will happen no matter how much you want to save your marriage because she doesn't, you will have to find new ways to interact with & parent your children.
> 
> Best wishes


thanks. 

I can't afford a lawyer.


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## jppaul5280 (5 mo ago)

I forgot to mention that her parents own the house


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## CountryMike (Jun 1, 2021)

jppaul5280 said:


> thank you but I don't want to make things worse. I do want to save my marriage


She tells you you need to go, she wants a D, you must move out.......

You aren't all powerful. How do you think you can control this????

It's humorous when you say you don't want to make it worse.


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## CountryMike (Jun 1, 2021)

jppaul5280 said:


> I forgot to mention that her parents own the house


Well now you're screwed. You have to become financially capable of getting a dwelling because soon you will be co parenting.


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## D0nnivain (Mar 13, 2021)

Oh boy. You can't afford not to have legal representation. If her parents own the house you can & probably will easily be evicted. 

Consider legal aid if you qualify. If you aren't poor enough for a free lawyer, call your local bar association. Many states have a low cost lawyer referral program for people who earn to much to qualify for legal aid but not enough to pay $300-$500 / hour.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

You sound so weak and passive.

Time to spine up and start acting like a man in charge.

She can't make you leave the house if it's your legal residence - her parents would have to initiate an eviction, so tell her you're not going anywhere until you're ready to go (or the sheriff drags you out of there).

In the interim, start looking for legal aid.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

Why does she want to divorce/separate? Did it come out of nowhere or has this been a long time coming? 

I know you don't want a divorce but that isn't a decision you can make alone. If she wants one, she will get one. You protesting will just make it harder, make it take longer, and make it cost more. 

If she's set on divorce then you tell her you're not going anywhere until there is a legal custody agreement in place.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

jppaul5280 said:


> Wife told me Saturday she wants to split up, then Sunday that I should move out. We have two kids. I'm not ready to move out emotionally or financially.
> 
> I want to save my marriage, doing things to that end, I love my wife, but the idea of not living with my kids is causing panic attacks.
> 
> ...


If you want to work it out, then tell her we need to stay together to work on the marriage. 

For a good answer you need to provide more details. What led to this point? Why does your wife want to split up? Any infidelity? How old are the kids?


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## jppaul5280 (5 mo ago)

bobert said:


> Why does she want to divorce/separate? Did it come out of nowhere or has this been a long time coming?
> 
> I know you don't want a divorce but that isn't a decision you can make alone. If she wants one, she will get one. You protesting will just make it harder, make it take longer, and make it cost more.
> 
> If she's set on divorce then you tell her you're not going anywhere until there is a legal custody agreement in place.


No, it didn't come out of nowhere. I neglected her and focused on our kids. I love being a dad, but forgot to be a husband.

I'm focused on myself -- diet, exercise, therapy -- and giving her space. I'm not pushing anything, i'm doing more around the house. I've heard stories where if the guy works on himself, gives her time, that sometimes she'll consider marriage counseling. I know the odds are low, but I have read stories where it has happened, so I'm trying.


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## jppaul5280 (5 mo ago)

BigDaddyNY said:


> If you want to work it out, then tell her we need to stay together to work on the marriage.
> 
> For a good answer you need to provide more details. What led to this point? Why does your wife want to split up? Any infidelity? How old are the kids?


no infidelity. I just became complacent. She loves how great of a father I am and how I have dedicated myself to our kids, but i ignored her.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

jppaul5280 said:


> no infidelity. I just became complacent. She loves how great of a father I am and how I have dedicated myself to our kids, but i ignored her.


How old are your kids?

I hate to say this, but there is a very good chance she has someone else she is interested in. It is unlikely a mother just breaks up the family because the husband is complacent. Especially if she really thinks he is a good father.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

jppaul5280 said:


> No, it didn't come out of nowhere. I neglected her and focused on our kids. I love being a dad, but forgot to be a husband.
> 
> I'm focused on myself -- diet, exercise, therapy -- and giving her space. I'm not pushing anything, i'm doing more around the house. I've heard stories where if the guy works on himself, gives her time, that sometimes she'll consider marriage counseling. I know the odds are low, but I have read stories where it has happened, so I'm trying.


That last part could be true, but living in separate houses will not facilitate that in any way. It will just be step one in detachment on the way to divorce.


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## jppaul5280 (5 mo ago)

BigDaddyNY said:


> How old are your kids?
> 
> I hate to say this, but there is a very good chance she has someone else she is interested in. It is unlikely a mother just breaks up the family because the husband is complacent. Especially if she really thinks he is a good father.


11 and 14, i really don't think there is someone else. I really think she's just frustrated and disappointed with me. I've lost motivation to do anything beyond being a dad.


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## jppaul5280 (5 mo ago)

BigDaddyNY said:


> That last part could be true, but living in separate houses will not facilitate that in any way. It will just be step one in detachment on the way to divorce.


i agree, which is one reason why i do not want to move out. I'm hoping that over the next some months she sees me change.

I'm just wondering how I handle the next conversation.


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## D0nnivain (Mar 13, 2021)

You are correct that you moving will make it easier for her to divorce you. She doesn't really need space. If you have been neglecting her & were focusing on being on a dad you already gave her too much space. Your marriage broke because you didn't give her enough time & attention. Now she just wants you gone because it's inconvenient to have you around. She is ready to move on & has already emotionally disconnected from the marriage. 

You need to start bringing up MC now. Tell her that you don't want to move until the two of you have worked together with a therapist to repair what broke in your marriage.


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## jppaul5280 (5 mo ago)

D0nnivain said:


> You are correct that you moving will make it easier for her to divorce you. She doesn't really need space. If you have been neglecting her & were focusing on being on a dad you already gave her too much space. Your marriage broke because you didn't give her enough time & attention. Now she just wants you gone because it's inconvenient to have you around. She is ready to move on & has already emotionally disconnected from the marriage.
> 
> You need to start bringing up MC now. Tell her that you don't want to move until the two of you have worked together with a therapist to repair what broke in your marriage.


I brought up MC on Saturday, but was in a panic and I'm sure it came across as desperate and insincere. I want to wait a bit before bringing it up again.


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## 342693 (Mar 2, 2020)

jppaul5280 said:


> I forgot to mention that her parents own the house


Make them evict you.

But never volunteer to move out of the house. Goes for all troubled marriages. Lawyers will tell you that's a huge mistake.


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## jppaul5280 (5 mo ago)

SCDad01 said:


> Make them evict you.
> 
> But never volunteer to move out of the house. Goes for all troubled marriages. Lawyers will tell you that's a huge mistake.


thanks, did read that.

I'm hoping to find a way to navigate the next conversation


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## D0nnivain (Mar 13, 2021)

Be firm. Have a plan. Have 3-4 ideas for Marriage Counselors who are taking on new clients that you can pick from


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## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

Do you both stay in the house for free?


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## jppaul5280 (5 mo ago)

D0nnivain said:


> Be firm. Have a plan. Have 3-4 ideas for Marriage Counselors who are taking on new clients that you can pick from


this is new to me, any advice on creating a plan?



re16 said:


> Do you both stay in the house for free?


yes


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## jppaul5280 (5 mo ago)

re16 said:


> Do you both stay in the house for free?


yes


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## hub49 (7 mo ago)

I think the die is cast at this point. Take your half of any joint monies and secure it now. Make the family evict you. No need to rush out of there. If you focused only on the kids, you allowed the marriage to fade away and she is ready to move on without you. Going to counseling would be like watering a plant when you know it's not going to come back.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

bobert said:


> ...how did you come up with that, from the quoted post?


Lures him into her house, gets him to father two kids and then she dumps him, telling him to move out of her house... what would you call it?


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## D0nnivain (Mar 13, 2021)

The plan is what you want it to be. Mostly it's you being prepared with the names of the counselors & having them at the ready when you talk to her. Rehearse in your head the points you want to make & practice staying calm.


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## Teacherwifemom (5 mo ago)

I have a different angle. When you really love and cherish someone, you don’t neglect them. You intrinsically WANT to give them attention and bring them joy. I can only assume she’s talked to you about this for years and you didn’t act, until faced with the final blow. There was always time to be a great dad and great (or even good) husband. Has your bedroom been dead? But I digress because you didn’t ask about why you did what you did. I agree with the others that you should not leave because “she said so.” I think your conversation needs to be factual. Tell her you’re sorry, you understand that you let this go on for far too long and you understand that there may be no point of return, but that she needs to REALLY think about how divorce affects kids for the rest of their life. And at their ages, they are neither young enough to not know any different nor old enough to understand. Divorce is tragic for children (unless there’s abuse, addiction, etc.) Tell her you are not a child and she cannot just tell you that you have to leave your family home and children because she says so, and that at this time you are not even going to entertain it. How do her parents feel about this? Do they like you? Are they pro marriage? Will they encourage her to try one last time (or let you try one last time, as the case may be), or have they heard about this for years and know she’s right? That being said, if she came in here with her story most people would probably tell her to leave, that you clearly don’t love her like a husband should and that she deserves someone who does. Good luck and please keep us posted how the talk goes.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

Realistically speaking, I doubt very much that you can do much. Why? because on top of disengaging from the relationship with her, you are now behaving like what all women can sense a mile away, and really turn them off...an insecure, weak and desperate man. Women admire and want a man that is secure in himself, shows strength and firmly works to get what he wants. This is the first thing you need to fix (if you can) in order to be able to get to her (if still possible). Either way, show your strength by behaving secure and ready to take it like a man either way the pendulum swings. At least she will respect you for that, if nothing else.

r


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## drencrom (Jul 1, 2021)

jppaul5280 said:


> Wife told me Saturday she wants to split up, then Sunday that I should move out. We have two kids. I'm not ready to move out emotionally or financially.
> 
> I want to save my marriage, doing things to that end, I love my wife, but the idea of not living with my kids is causing panic attacks.
> 
> ...


If you move out then you should from that point on not be responsible for any bills for that home.

But I would not move out until I consulted a lawyer. So tell her that. I had a whole speech about signing quit claim deeds and all, but I see that her parents own the house. So again, consult an attorney first. You have rights as her spouse living in a home, marital or not.

You said you can't afford a lawyer. You take out a loan. Or simply pay for a 1 or 2 hour consultation with a lawyer without the intention of hiring for a full blown divorce. If you don't want to do that, then I'm afraid she will be able to railroad you if she gets an attorney, unless you get a sympathetic judge and tell your story in court.

So here are some questions:

Do you both work?
Who makes more money?
Are either of you considered more of the caregiver to the kids?
Are there any retirement accounts? If so, who has more?


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## drencrom (Jul 1, 2021)

CountryMike said:


> She tells you you need to go, she wants a D, you must move out.......
> 
> You aren't all powerful. How do you think you can control this????
> 
> It's humorous when you say you don't want to make it worse.


This is the 2nd option. With her parents owning the house and she is being a #@$% about it, there is nothing to save. Once someone says they want to split up/divorce, what is to save?

If OP doesn't consult an attorney, then this right here from CountryMike is the only avenue. Move out, split whatever marital property down the middle and move on. But there will be the need for an attorney at some point unless he just wants to go into court on his own. This means OP will need to negotiate everything with her lawyer by himself. And that is very viable just as long as he knows he is entitled to half and don't let them try to take more. If they never agree, then you tell them you will all take it to the judge, present his case, and let him/her decide.


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## drencrom (Jul 1, 2021)

jppaul5280 said:


> 11 and 14, i really don't think there is someone else. I really think she's just frustrated and disappointed with me. I've lost motivation to do anything beyond being a dad.


So does this mean you are the primary caregiver? If so, that is a case to gain custody....and child support.


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## jppaul5280 (5 mo ago)

drencrom said:


> Do you both work?
> Who makes more money?
> Are either of you considered more of the caregiver to the kids?
> Are there any retirement accounts? If so, who has more?


thanks!

yes, she currently makes twice what I do, but I was the primary earner for about a dozen years. No retirement accts. We both take care of the kids. She's a good mom.


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## CountryMike (Jun 1, 2021)

Teacherwifemom said:


> I have a different angle. When you really love and cherish someone, you don’t neglect them. You intrinsically WANT to give them attention and bring them joy. I can only assume she’s talked to you about this for years and you didn’t act, until faced with the final blow. There was always time to be a great dad and great (or even good) husband. Has your bedroom been dead? But I digress because you didn’t ask about why you did what you did. I agree with the others that you should not leave because “she said so.” I think your conversation needs to be factual. Tell her you’re sorry, you understand that you let this go on for far too long and you understand that there may be no point of return, but that she needs to REALLY think about how divorce affects kids for the rest of their life. And at their ages, they are neither young enough to not know any different nor old enough to understand. Divorce is tragic for children (unless there’s abuse, addiction, etc.) Tell her you are not a child and she cannot just tell you that you have to leave your family home and children because she says so, and that at this time you are not even going to entertain it. How do her parents feel about this? Do they like you? Are they pro marriage? Will they encourage her to try one last time (or let you try one last time, as the case may be), or have they heard about this for years and know she’s right? That being said, if she came in here with her story most people would probably tell her to leave, that you clearly don’t love her like a husband should and that she deserves someone who does. Good luck and please keep us posted how the talk goes.


And she will help him pack and drop him off at the bus depot.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

I'll give you the words. But, I think it's a good suggestion to investigate any free or cheap source of legal advice. (Which is NOT this website).



jppaul5280 said:


> I'm just wondering how I handle the next conversation.


You need to practice calming yourself, so you can handle the conversation. For example, look at Progressive Muscle Relaxation for Stress and Insomnia

I'll take the words to use from your posts below. It's based on trying to agree with her as far as you *sincerely* can.



jppaul5280 said:


> I neglected her and focused on our kids. I love being a dad, but forgot to be a husband.





jppaul5280 said:


> I really think she's just frustrated and disappointed with me.


*Her:* I want you to move out.
*You:* Yes, you're right. I can see I neglected you. I love being a dad, but forgot to be a husband. I imagine you are really frustrated and disappointed with me. I think this situation is really sad. Please tell me more about what you want.



Teacherwifemom said:


> Tell her ... that she needs to REALLY think about how divorce affects kids for the rest of their life.


I advise against saying this. Yes, it's true, but she already knows it. All she learns from that is you are willing to emotionally leverage her to get what you want.



Teacherwifemom said:


> Tell her you are not a child and she cannot just tell you that you have to leave your family home and children because she says so


Again, I advise against saying this. What it says is "_let's fight_". Then she'll push back. Do the ju jitsu with "yes, I can see why you want me to leave".


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## 342693 (Mar 2, 2020)

jppaul5280 said:


> No, it didn't come out of nowhere. I neglected her and focused on our kids. I love being a dad, but forgot to be a husband.





jppaul5280 said:


> I just became complacent...i ignored her.


You need to tell her this. Is she open to going out to dinner and talking? Maybe arrange for a sitter to come watch the kids...go for coffee, to the park. Nothing fancy...you're not trying to impress her, just talk. Tell her you messed up and that you want a second chance. But she's going to need to see change, so don't expect one talk to solve your problems. But you want to find out what all of her issues are and that's the point of talking (she talks, you listen). Maybe offer to go to individual counseling to work on your issues. Just take it slow. Don't start sending flowers, showing her attention all at once...she will see right through that. But don't move out unless you have to. Maybe move to a different room. Out of the house, out of the marriage.



jppaul5280 said:


> 11 and 14, i really don't think there is someone else.


Usually the woman will volunteer to move out if there is somebody out.


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## Mybabysgotit (Jul 1, 2019)

jppaul5280 said:


> this is new to me, any advice on creating a plan?
> 
> 
> yes


yes, the plan is to get a job and provide for your family. Women don't like deadbeats and will grow resentful of them eventually. I've never heard of a wife being mad at their husband or growing contempt for their husband for being a good dad and paying attention to their kid(s).


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## jppaul5280 (5 mo ago)

Laurentium said:


> I'll give you the words. But, I think it's a good suggestion to investigate any free or cheap source of legal advice. (Which is NOT this website).
> 
> 
> You need to practice calming yourself, so you can handle the conversation. For example, look at Progressive Muscle Relaxation for Stress and Insomnia
> ...


excellent, thank you!


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

jppaul5280 said:


> excellent, thank you!


You're welcome, but don't kid yourself it'll be easy.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

If you had the money to move out, would you? I ask because if you’re not interested in staying for the right reasons, you won’t be able to sustain whatever it is you have been lacking all this time. We tend to spend time and effort on things and people we find important. So, I’m just wondering if your fear comes down to having to go it alone and find the financial means to do so than it is about losing your wife. Living on your own would mean less time with your kids - so I guess you just need to sort out if you’d be staying for the kids but you’ll go through the motions of looking like you’ll become the attentive husband as to not rock the boat.

Sadly, a lot of people stay in dead marriages for the sake of their kids. I’m not sure if that’s a good or bad thing but maybe good in that the kids have some sense of stability but bad in that they grow up not seeing two parent really connecting.
I don’t know.

Only you can answer those questions…


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## jppaul5280 (5 mo ago)

SCDad01 said:


> You need to tell her this. Is she open to going out to dinner and talking? Maybe arrange for a sitter to come watch the kids...go for coffee, to the park. Nothing fancy...you're not trying to impress her, just talk. Tell her you messed up and that you want a second chance.


she's not interested in talking at the moment. I'll do that soon, but not sure when she'll be ready



SCDad01 said:


> But she's going to need to see change, so don't expect one talk to solve your problems. But you want to find out what all of her issues are and that's the point of talking (she talks, you listen).


yeah, I realize that. 



SCDad01 said:


> Maybe offer to go to individual counseling to work on your issues


we're both doing that



SCDad01 said:


> Just take it slow. Don't start sending flowers, showing her attention all at once...she will see right through that.


yeah, I'm giving here space. I'm doing more around the house and taking better care of myself. I'm sure she thinks this is just a ploy, but I realize that these need to be permanent changes for me. Not only to be a better husband to her or a future woman, but when I take my kids hiking, I cannot keep up with my 11yo. I not only want to become a better man mentally, but also physically. It's embarrassing that I can't keep up with my kid. And I need to be a better role model for my 14yo because he is in poor physical condition and cannot keep up with me on hikes.


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## jppaul5280 (5 mo ago)

Laurentium said:


> You're welcome, but don't kid yourself it'll be easy.


I realize that. I need help with advice, like you gave. And help with everything else. I'd like to be a better husband to and for her, but even if the divorce happens, I need to just be better.


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## jppaul5280 (5 mo ago)

*Deidre* said:


> If you had the money to move out, would you? I ask because if you’re not interested in staying for the right reasons, you won’t be able to sustain whatever it is you have been lacking all this time. We tend to spend time and effort on things and people we find important. So, I’m just wondering if your fear comes down to having to go it alone and find the financial means to do so than it is about losing your wife. Living on your own would mean less time with your kids - so I guess you just need to sort out if you’d be staying for the kids but you’ll go through the motions of looking like you’ll become the attentive husband as to not rock the boat.
> 
> Sadly, a lot of people stay in dead marriages for the sake of their kids. I’m not sure if that’s a good or bad thing but maybe good in that the kids have some sense of stability but bad in that they grow up not seeing two parent really connecting.
> I don’t know.
> ...


fair questions.

If I had the money, no, I wouldn't move out. To answer your other questions, my head is spinning and I can't think properly.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

jppaul5280 said:


> my head is spinning and I can't think properly.


start working on the relaxation exercises, like, today. As soon as possible.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

jppaul5280 said:


> fair questions.
> 
> If I had the money, no, I wouldn't move out. To answer your other questions, my head is spinning and I can't think properly.


Do you feel like there were signs it was heading this way or was it kind of sudden? (your wife asking you to move out) Maybe you mentioned it, and I missed it.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

jppaul5280 said:


> we're both doing that


Did she ask you to move out before or after starting individual counseling?


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## jppaul5280 (5 mo ago)

*Deidre* said:


> Do you feel like there were signs it was heading this way or was it kind of sudden? (your wife asking you to move out) Maybe you mentioned it, and I missed it.


There were signs my marriage was failing. I stuck my head in the sand. As for moving out, she asked me once, Sunday.


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## jppaul5280 (5 mo ago)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Did she ask you to move out before or after starting individual counseling?


before. I started individual only Tuesday. Session one had some revelations. My mom was abusive and left me when I was 11yo. I didn't see her again until my 18th birthday at my brother's funeral (he was 23 at the time). I have unresolved issues 



Laurentium said:


> start working on the relaxation exercises, like, today. As soon as possible.


yeah.


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## D0nnivain (Mar 13, 2021)

She's not interested in talking because words are cheap. When you stuck you head in the sand, that is when you could have saved this if your ACTIONS indicated that you cared. They didn't because you stuck your head in the sand. 

Now here you are & words alone aren't going to fix things. When I was in a similar situation & my EX started doing & saying all the things I had been begging for him to do for years, I was so hurt & closed off his actions made me angry & more determined to end things. Timing is everything


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## jppaul5280 (5 mo ago)

D0nnivain said:


> She's not interested in talking because words are cheap. When you stuck you head in the sand, that is when you could have saved this if your ACTIONS indicated that you cared. They didn't because you stuck your head in the sand.
> 
> Now here you are & words alone aren't going to fix things. When I was in a similar situation & my EX started doing & saying all the things I had been begging for him to do for years, I was so hurt & closed off his actions made me angry & more determined to end things. Timing is everything


you're right, but unless you have a time machine, i can only change the future.

I sure hope my new actions don't piss her off, but changing for her is also changing for me, so I need to keep doing better, even if it makes things worse between us. I sure hope my wife doesn't get "so hurt & closed off his actions made me angry & more determined to end things."

Since you've been through this with a man who sounds similar to me... do you have any advice on what your husband could've done differently after you said you wanted to end the marriage? Maybe your experience can help me do better? 

And yes, timing is everything. Any advice to that?


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

I am not an attorney and strongly advise you to seek advice of one...but it sounds like she is holding all the cards here...I dont see how you can ignore her requests about moving out when you have no legal right to the residence...

But perhaps there is some loophole that I am not aware of, so again, you need at least a consult, if nothing else...


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

leftfield said:


> How about: "if you want to someone to move out, you can do it".


Her parents own the house. He needs to get out.


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## CountryMike (Jun 1, 2021)

jppaul5280 said:


> you're right, but unless you have a time machine, i can only change the future.
> 
> I sure hope my new actions don't piss her off, but changing for her is also changing for me, so I need to keep doing better, even if it makes things worse between us. I sure hope my wife doesn't get "so hurt & closed off his actions made me angry & more determined to end things."
> 
> ...


She can't be more hurt or more done. She also may not be as hurt as you think.

So reality is anything you do cannot make it worse.


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## jppaul5280 (5 mo ago)

CountryMike said:


> She can't be more hurt or more done. She also may not be as hurt as you think.
> 
> So reality is anything you do cannot make it worse.


I guess i'm saying that I don't think she's done. I think she's 99.9% done. 

movie quote:
Mary Swanson : I'd say more like one out of a million.
Lloyd Christmas : [long pause while he processes what he's heard] So you're telling me there's a chance. YEAH!


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## drencrom (Jul 1, 2021)

hamadryad said:


> I am not an attorney and strongly advise you to seek advice of one...but it sounds like she is holding all the cards here...I dont see how you can ignore her requests about moving out when you have no legal right to the residence...
> 
> But perhaps there is some loophole that I am not aware of, so again, you need at least a consult, if nothing else...


In general, I think you are right about him not having any recourse since he has no rights to the residence.

However, if there were any improvements, additions to the residence that was paid for with marital funds, boom, he now has equity, whether the mother owns it or not.

Then there is also the issue about him having rights to reside in the home as her spouse. But only an attorney can advise on that. I'm just throwing up possibilities.

Here is a site stating he likely has some rights to reside in the home. Marriage: your rights to your home - Rights of WomenRights of Women. But this of course is about one spouse owning the home, not a 3rd party.


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## drencrom (Jul 1, 2021)

@jppaul5280 did her mother buy the house outright? Or is it just in her name, but you and your wife made the payments on the mortgage?


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## jppaul5280 (5 mo ago)

drencrom said:


> @jppaul5280 did her mother buy the house outright? Or is it just in her name, but you and your wife made the payments on the mortgage?


she bought it outright. She has money. It's in a revocable trust for my kids. We made $400/month payments at the beginning to the Trust, but that only lasted a few years.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

drencrom said:


> In general, I think you are right about him not having any recourse since he has no rights to the residence.
> 
> However, if there were any improvements, additions to the residence that was paid for with marital funds, boom, he now has equity, whether the mother owns it or not.
> 
> ...


Valid points...I suppose that's what I meant by loopholes...

But they may say, if he put money into it, he lived there rent free, so that it would be a wash?

Legal stuff meant for attorneys...Either way, though, does anyone want to stay with someone that explicitly tells you to GTFO? I would protect my assets, but I dont think I can live under those conditions...even if I could by some loop hole....


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## CountryMike (Jun 1, 2021)

jppaul5280 said:


> she's not interested in talking at the moment. I'll do that soon, but not sure when she'll be ready
> 
> 
> 
> ...


She's not ready to talk? Won't talk even?

Man you should grow some stones.


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## TrailTrekker (10 mo ago)

I’m late to the party here, but just wanted to chime in. Several months ago my wife said basically the same to me ‘move out.’ I didn’t move out, and kept things steady for a few days. Eventually she started talking about something setting off flashbacks from the past. So we were able to talk about it, and are getting along great now.

If she hasn’t brought up moving out again, it could be a similar situation, or call to action to you. I’d stay the course and keep upbeat. Keep working on yourself and keep the mood at home as light and cheerful as possible.

When she starts talking, you can listen and see what’s on her mind and work step by step to improve your marriage, kudos to you to being so investment in your children, keep up the great dad role model.


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## CountryMike (Jun 1, 2021)

TrailTrekker said:


> I’m late to the party here, but just wanted to chime in. Several months ago my wife said basically the same to me ‘move out.’ I didn’t move out, and kept things steady for a few days. Eventually she started talking about something setting off flashbacks from the past. So we were able to talk about it, and are getting along great now.
> 
> If she hasn’t brought up moving out again, it could be a similar situation, or call to action to you. I’d stay the course and keep upbeat. Keep working on yourself and keep the mood at home as light and cheerful as possible.
> 
> When she starts talking, you can listen and see what’s on her mind and work step by step to improve your marriage, kudos to you to being so investment in your children, keep up the great dad role model.


He's living in her parents house and he doesn't work. Hell, I'd kick him out.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

My only concern for you is if she insists on you moving out, that could mean she’s talking to another guy. (I mean, like pushing you to be out asap.) But if you discuss remaining there, in a separate room, until you can figure out your finances, and she’s okay with that - then there likely isn’t anyone else and that could buy you some time to self improve and improve your marriage.

Marriage can serve as a mirror of sorts and if you do end up divorced, at least now you’ll know what needs to change in you, not just for a new relationship but for yourself. Maybe thank your wife for pointing things out to you, and just go from there.

I hope you can turn things around, time will tell.


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## drencrom (Jul 1, 2021)

hamadryad said:


> Valid points...I suppose that's what I meant by loopholes...
> 
> But they may say, if he put money into it, he lived there rent free, so that it would be a wash?


It won't give him claim to any home equity other than any marital money that was used on it. Say they spent 20 grand to put in a sunroom. 10 grand of that is his, he could at least recoup that, and may be entitled to interest since it added to the value of the home.

Or if his mother didn't purchase it outright and they paid the mortgage. 1/2 of any of that money he is entitled to.



> Legal stuff meant for attorneys...Either way, though, does anyone want to stay with someone that explicitly tells you to GTFO?


I know I was willing to leave the home when I divorced, but then she'd have had to take ownership of the home, make the mortgage payements, and pay me 1/2 the equity. In this case he might want to stay as long as he can so he could maybe try to afford to save up for a place of his own and see what legal entitlement he may have depending on if any marital money was used on the home at all, as well as splitting the marital assets, bank accounts, etc. Once that is done he may be able to afford to leave.


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## drencrom (Jul 1, 2021)

jppaul5280 said:


> she bought it outright. She has money. It's in a revocable trust for my kids. We made $400/month payments at the beginning to the Trust, but that only lasted a few years.





> yes, she currently makes twice what I do, but I was the primary earner for about a dozen years. No retirement accts. We both take care of the kids. She's a good mom.


No retirement accounts. Ouch, that's not good. What about bank accounts? You're entitled to half of them. Any other investment accounts? Checking?
If there is any substantial money in ANY account, I'd get a print off of them with dates and balances. That way if she tries to drain the accounts you have a record of her trying to screw you out of your half.

Were any improvements made on the house that either of you paid for? You need to be thinking on the lines of anything over the course of your marriage that you accumulated or paid for. Because half of all of that is yours, including any debt.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

CountryMike said:


> He's living in her parents house and he doesn't work. Hell, I'd kick him out.


He’s not working? I must’ve missed that part.


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## CountryMike (Jun 1, 2021)

DudeInProgress said:


> He’s not working? I must’ve missed that part.


That's what I got out of his post. Like he's a sahd. 

OP, are you working? If so my bad.


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## drencrom (Jul 1, 2021)

DudeInProgress said:


> He’s not working? I must’ve missed that part.


No, he's working, but says she now makes more than him and he was the primary breadwinner up to a point.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

CountryMike said:


> That's what I got out of his post. Like he's a sahd.
> 
> OP, are you working? If so my bad.


How do guys still not recognize what a dangerous scenario that is for them?


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## CountryMike (Jun 1, 2021)

drencrom said:


> No, he's working, but says she now makes more than him and he was the primary breadwinner up to a point.


That sounds better. Who watches the kids?

If grandparents only, that's a reason someone wants a change. Grandparents as a rule won't want to be babysitters as they move into what should be their empty nest time.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Can either of you afford to run your home on your own?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

CountryMike said:


> That sounds better. Who watches the kids?
> 
> If grandparents only, that's a reason someone wants a change. Grandparents as a rule won't want to be babysitters as they move into what should be their empty nest time.


The oldest is 14 I think so old enough to be left alone with the 11 year old. 
Grandparents here look after children in droves. The country wouldn't function without grandparents caring for grandchildren.


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## Bulfrog1987 (Oct 8, 2021)

What are the issues? What is the reasoning for her wanting this separation?


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## CountryMike (Jun 1, 2021)

Diana7 said:


> The oldest is 14 I think so old enough to be left alone with the 11 year old.
> Grandparents here look after children in droves. The country wouldn't function without grandparents caring for grandchildren.


That's very true, and a great thing. But not all do it 24/7 without an end in sight.

We'll have our grands this weekend.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

jppaul5280 said:


> Wife told me Saturday she wants to split up, then Sunday that I should move out. We have two kids. I'm not ready to move out emotionally or financially.
> 
> I want to save my marriage, doing things to that end, I love my wife, but the idea of not living with my kids is causing panic attacks.
> 
> ...


I'm not moving out.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

sokillme said:


> I'm not moving out.


Eloquent, concise. Bravo.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Diana7 said:


> The oldest is 14 I think so old enough to be left alone with the 11 year old.
> Grandparents here look after children in droves. The country wouldn't function without grandparents caring for grandchildren.


It's not a given here. They very often don't even live in the same state. I was never once taken care of by any of my grandparents. And a lot of people have to work in their older years so they're not necessarily available. But some are.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

jppaul5280 said:


> thank you but I don't want to make things worse. I do want to save my marriage


What reasons has she given for wanting to divorce?


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

Never mind, I read the rest of the thread.

Do NOT leave your house, neither of you can kick the other out of the marital home, owned or not.

Usually, by the time a woman reaches the point of saying she wants a divorce, she's done. And when a woman is done, she's done.


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## jppaul5280 (5 mo ago)

DudeInProgress said:


> How do guys still not recognize what a dangerous scenario that is for them?


sorry, not thinking, can you explain?


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## jppaul5280 (5 mo ago)

CountryMike said:


> That's what I got out of his post. Like he's a sahd.
> 
> OP, are you working? If so my bad.


I worked full time for most of our marriage, wife part time. She went back to work full time about a year ago. She now works more and makes more than me. She encouraged me to find a job that I like as all the other jobs were not good. I found one I like very much but it's only 30 hours a week, with the hope that'll it be full time eventually.

I sound like a SAHD because other than work, all I did was hang out with my kids. Wife says I'm a great father, but not good husband. I made mistakes.


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## jppaul5280 (5 mo ago)

CountryMike said:


> That sounds better. Who watches the kids?


that was part of the reason why I took a 30hr/wk job... so I could work while my 11yo was in school. My 14yo doesn't need looking after. Truth is, my 11yo doesn't need much help either.


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## jppaul5280 (5 mo ago)

Diana7 said:


> Can either of you afford to run your home on your own?


since there's no mortgage, she can. I have to figure out my situation. The company I work for likes me very much, but they only need me 30hr/wk. I guess I'll just struggle until they can bring me on full-time because it's my favorite job in 30 years of work.


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## jppaul5280 (5 mo ago)

Bulfrog1987 said:


> What are the issues? What is the reasoning for her wanting this separation?


I stopped paying attention to her. I focused too much energy on our kids.


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## CountryMike (Jun 1, 2021)

jppaul5280 said:


> I worked full time for most of our marriage, wife part time. She went back to work full time about a year ago. She now works more and makes more than me. She encouraged me to find a job that I like as all the other jobs were not good. I found one I like very much but it's only 30 hours a week, with the hope that'll it be full time eventually.
> 
> I sound like a SAHD because other than work, all I did was hang out with my kids. Wife says I'm a great father, but not good husband. I made mistakes.


Remember just because she says something doesn't make it true.


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## jppaul5280 (5 mo ago)

CountryMike said:


> Remember just because she says something doesn't make it true.


agreed, but i'm trying to balance not moving out any time soon so I can get my situation in order, so I can spend more full-time-dad with them, and also not upset my wife more than I have in the very unlikely chance that I fix it. 

I'm also terrified that moving out early affects my parental rights. I'm going to look for a free/reduced-cost legal aid option in Colorado to see what I need to do about my parent rights


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

jppaul5280 said:


> I stopped paying attention to her. I focused too much energy on our kids.


Women do not divorce their husband and break up their family over this. 
There is more going on here.

She has either lost respect and attraction for you as a man and a husband because you’re not bringing enough to the table on multiple levels. 
Or there’s another man involved.
Or both, which is usually the case.

Woman also rarely (almost never) leave their husband without already having another man lined up.

how has your sex life been? 
And what is the leadership dynamic in your marriage?


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## jppaul5280 (5 mo ago)

DudeInProgress said:


> Women do not divorce their husband and break up their family over this.
> There is more going on here.
> 
> She has either lost respect and attraction for you as a man and a husband because you’re not bringing enough to the table on multiple levels.
> ...


honestly, it's too painful at the moment to detail everything, but thank you for your post.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

jppaul5280 said:


> I worked full time for most of our marriage, wife part time. She went back to work full time about a year ago. She now works more and makes more than me. She encouraged me to find a job that I like as all the other jobs were not good. I found one I like very much but it's only 30 hours a week, with the hope that'll it be full time eventually.
> 
> I sound like a SAHD because other than work, all I did was hang out with my kids. Wife says I'm a great father, but not good husband. I made mistakes.


New job followed by wanting to dump her husband sounds ominous to me.


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## jppaul5280 (5 mo ago)

BigDaddyNY said:


> New job followed by wanting to dump her husband sounds ominous to me.


she's been unhappy with me/us for a while. I buried my head in the sand.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

jppaul5280 said:


> she's been unhappy with me/us for a while. I buried my head in the sand.


Even so, still ominous. The fact you buried your head just means you left the door open for someone that may have given her what she felt she was missing. I don't mean to turn this into an affair thread, but you can't discount the possibility. Work is a very common place to fall for someone new. I hope for your sake this isn't the case. You already have a long, tall hill to climb, but if there is another man in the picture the marriage is done.


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## jppaul5280 (5 mo ago)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Even so, still ominous. The fact you buried your head just means you left the door open for someone that may have given her what she felt she was missing. I don't mean to turn this into an affair thread, but you can't discount the possibility. Work is a very common place to fall for someone new. I hope for your sake this isn't the case. You already have a long, tall hill to climb, but if there is another man in the picture the marriage is done.


there's no one at her work that would appeal to her. I appreciate the warning, but I don't think that's happening.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

jppaul5280 said:


> she's been unhappy with me/us for a while. I buried my head in the sand.


People underestimate the emotional damage that is done when someone feels, day in and day out, that they aren't loved or appreciated. What's weird is that all these guys insisting it MUST be an affair because NO woman would leave a marriage only because she feels unloved and unappreciated would themselves of course leave a marriage where they felt unloved and unappreciated. That is certainly a very valid reason to leave a marriage. I'm not saying she isn't having an affair, because I have no clue, but I can say that it is NOT in fact the only reason a woman leaves a marriage. Being lonely by yourself is better than being lonely with someone who isn't interested in you.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

What percent of the household income have you been bringing in consistently in the last 2 years?


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## D0nnivain (Mar 13, 2021)

jppaul5280 said:


> there's no one at her work that would appeal to her. I appreciate the warning, but I don't think that's happening.


Don't discount it. There's a proximity factor in here. She's newly back to work which is a self esteem boost. She now makes more money then you which can cause a loss of respect / attraction. A new man at her work who she sees working FT while you don't who is focused on her, flattering her while you paid attention to your kids & ignored the problems in your marriage that you know existed could easily turn her head. 

Especially she gets to keep the roof her mom put over her head "for your children" she has little to lose by jettisoning you.


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## jppaul5280 (5 mo ago)

TexasMom1216 said:


> People underestimate the emotional damage that is done when someone feels, day in and day out, that they aren't loved or appreciated. What's weird is that all these guys insisting it MUST be an affair because NO woman would leave a marriage only because she feels unloved and unappreciated would themselves of course leave a marriage where they felt unloved and unappreciated. That is certainly a very valid reason to leave a marriage. I'm not saying she isn't having an affair, because I have no clue, but I can say that it is NOT in fact the only reason a woman leaves a marriage. Being lonely by yourself is better than being lonely with someone who isn't interested in you.


any advice on how to let her know how sorry I am and how I'd like to give her the attention she deserves?


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## jppaul5280 (5 mo ago)

DownByTheRiver said:


> What percent of the household income have you been bringing in consistently in the last 2 years?


maybe 50%? the dozen years prior, probably 75%?


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## D0nnivain (Mar 13, 2021)

Give the attention. Don't talk about it. Do something. Take action. Talk is cheap but understand she may be too far gone to care that you are making a last ditch effort now. 

If another man has turned her head, all is lost. Don't even bother trying.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

jppaul5280 said:


> maybe 50%? the dozen years prior, probably 75%?


I asked in the last 2 years. Your original post said you're not ready to move out financially. Why not?


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

jppaul5280 said:


> any advice on how to let her know how sorry I am and how I'd like to give her the attention she deserves?


I can try, without the specifics of how things have gone it's kind of general and may or may not apply. 

I would tell her that you aren't moving out because you aren't ready to end the marriage. That you want to stay and work on the marriage, including counseling. Tell her you recognize that you focused on the kids and not on the marriage and took her for granted, and you want another chance to show her how you really feel. 

If she says no, I would ask her point blank if there is someone else. Watch how she reacts to that blunt question, that will be more important than the words she says. If she says no and you believe her, ask her what steps she thinks you guys should take to fix things. Ask her what it would take, and ask her to make you a list of things that bothered her. 

As always, remember I am not a marriage counselor or a therapist, I am a stranger on the internet. 🙂


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

jppaul5280 said:


> she's been unhappy with me/us for a while. I buried my head in the sand.


What does that mean? 
You need to be a lot more specific for folks to understand what that means.


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## Tex X (May 17, 2017)

jppaul5280 said:


> since there's no mortgage, she can. I have to figure out my situation. The company I work for likes me very much, but they only need me 30hr/wk. I guess I'll just struggle until they can bring me on full-time because it's my favorite job in 30 years of work.


Why not look for another job that pays better? You may not like it as much as your current job, but if you did land another job, it would also give you leverage with your current employer to get you to full time.


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## jppaul5280 (5 mo ago)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I asked in the last 2 years. Your original post said you're not ready to move out financially. Why not?


we have no savings. My wife wanted a new van last year, so we got one and the payments. My wife wanted an expensive vacation so she took out a loan. 

Yes, I realize these were dumb, but I can't change the past. 

Please, if you want to tell me what kind of loser I am, based on your post in the other thread suggesting i might be capable of violence, I don't need to hear it, not now anyways.


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## jppaul5280 (5 mo ago)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I can try, without the specifics of how things have gone it's kind of general and may or may not apply.
> 
> I would tell her that you aren't moving out because you aren't ready to end the marriage. That you want to stay and work on the marriage, including counseling. Tell her you recognize that you focused on the kids and not on the marriage and took her for granted, and you want another chance to show her how you really feel.
> 
> ...


thanks. 

I'll do that.


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## jppaul5280 (5 mo ago)

DudeInProgress said:


> What does that mean?
> You need to be a lot more specific for folks to understand what that means.


she wanted me to be more than what i've been, which has been almost exclusively a father and employee at a job. I have no professional ambition. No friends. I've let my physical condition go. I haven't been a husband. I haven't helped around the house as much as I should've. I took her for granted and didn't show the appreciation and attention she deserves.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

jppaul5280 said:


> we have no savings. My wife wanted a new van last year, so we got one and the payments. My wife wanted an expensive vacation so she took out a loan.
> 
> Yes, I realize these were dumb, but I can't change the past.
> 
> Please, if you want to tell me what kind of loser I am, based on your post in the other thread suggesting i might be capable of violence, I don't need to hear it, not now anyways.


I didn't ask what you and she together have saved up. I'm asking what percentage of the income you have contributed in the last 2 years because I have a feeling it is essential to the plot here.


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## jppaul5280 (5 mo ago)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I didn't ask what you and she together have saved up. I'm asking what percentage of the income you have contributed in the last 2 years because I have a feeling it is essential to the plot here.


If you're saying I didn't pull my weight, that's correct.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

jppaul5280 said:


> If you're saying I didn't pull my weight, that's correct.


I'm saying only what I'm saying, which is a question, not a statement. If you want people here to give you best advice, they need to know the actual situation. 

So you've said you didn't pull your weight, so you do know at least one reason why she wants you to get out. There is no need to accuse her of cheating or any other thing. This is enough. It's not true that most women replace men before they leave one. The ones I've known in the last 40 years didn't even want to THINK about getting another man they were so glad to be free of the one they had. So we don't know you and we don't know her, but if she does have another man, it's her mom's house and nothing to stop her from moving him right in, is there? Or Mom selling the house and going to live with him. 

You need to be applying for work and get yourself enough money to rent a place to live. Unless you have assets you haven't told us about, sounds like you'd have trouble paying for an attorney. You'd have to have assets to put up and so unless you own a boat or another home somewhere or an expensive car, you better get to work doubletime and save your money for a place to live or an attorney. That's my best advice. This isn't going away. Even if you get an attorney it's doubtful it would buy you more than 2-4 weeks of living there in that home legally. Now, it's possible if she's been fully supporting you the last years, maybe she'd have to give YOU some support money, but that would only be very temporary. 

However, my friend just went through that. He stopped working 2 years prior to her filing. At one time, he had supported her (she wanted to work and he objected, but she finally did anyway) and then he quit work and she supported him. Something else happened and she started divorce. She did NOT have to give him any support money. Because kids were involved, he still owed her because he refused to leave the paid-for house, causing her a bunch of expense. So he ended up having to pay every bit of that despite not having income the last 2 years. They based it off his past and potential to make good income. Basically they told him, Get out of the house so it can be sold to pay attorney fees, and get back to work and pay child support, and then they took what he already owed her out of the sale of the house, and she got 75 percent of the house because he dug in and stayed there and drug everything out. 

Dragging out legal proceedings will only cost you money in the long run. Accepting reality and cooperating might get you some good will and impress a court and not leave a bad taste in your ex-wife's mouth.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> It's not true that most women replace men before they leave one.


Quoted for truth. "Any woman who leaves only ever does so for another man because she is a ho" is what men say when they don't want to take any responsibility for their role in destroying the marriage. It makes them the powerless victim of an evil woman and paints her as the automatic bad guy. It's just an excuse to not own their own mistakes.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Quoted for truth. "Any woman who leaves only ever does so for another man because she is a ho" is what men say when they don't want to take any responsibility for their role in destroying the marriage. It makes them the powerless victim of an evil woman and paints her as the automatic bad guy. It's just an excuse to not own their own mistakes.


Yes, that's common. I do know some people, not just women, like to leapfrog, but that's not even what this thread is about. And he doesn't think so. Some people do it out of desperation, men and women (and I could see that happening here but with him instead of her) because they don't feel they can hustle and support themselves and act out of fear. But that's why I tell everyone, not just this guy, go get two jobs.


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## jppaul5280 (5 mo ago)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I'm saying only what I'm saying, which is a question, not a statement. If you want people here to give you best advice, they need to know the actual situation.
> 
> So you've said you didn't pull your weight, so you do know at least one reason why she wants you to get out. There is no need to accuse her of cheating or any other thing. This is enough. It's not true that most women replace men before they leave one. The ones I've known in the last 40 years didn't even want to THINK about getting another man they were so glad to be free of the one they had. So we don't know you and we don't know her, but if she does have another man, it's her mom's house and nothing to stop her from moving him right in, is there? Or Mom selling the house and going to live with him.
> 
> ...


this is all good info.

My main fear is leaving would cause a custody problem for me. My wife's a good woman, she wouldn't fight me on shared custody (she loves how good of a father I am), I doubt she's having an affair, etc. My fear is that a judge will make a ruling that neither she nor I want if I move out.

Or maybe I'm simply wrong in that moving out is a legal problem? Other's here said it is.


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## drencrom (Jul 1, 2021)

jppaul5280 said:


> we have no savings. My wife wanted a new van last year, so we got one and the payments. My wife wanted an expensive vacation so she took out a loan.


Well if you move out and divorce, you should no longer have to pay on that loan if she keeps the van. Besides, mommy will bail her out.

I think you seriously just need to prep to move. You will get to see your kids. Lots of us fathers do it. It's an adjustment, but we are still there for our kids and see them. 1 night a week and every other weekend is the norm.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

jppaul5280 said:


> *My fear is that a judge will make a ruling that neither she nor I want if I move out.*
> 
> Or maybe I'm simply wrong in that moving out is a legal problem? Other's here said it is.


Are you a good cook? Maybe you can do a Mrs. Doubtfire type of deal...lol..


All kidding aside, most couples wind up doing their own thing even after the court adjuducated custody arrangement. Once the dust settles and the anger/resentment fades, then (hopefully) parents decide what's best for the kids, rather than how they can screw the other one out of time with their own kids...


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

jppaul5280 said:


> this is all good info.
> 
> My main fear is leaving would cause a custody problem for me. My wife's a good woman, she wouldn't fight me on shared custody (she loves how good of a father I am), I doubt she's having an affair, etc. My fear is that a judge will make a ruling that neither she nor I want if I move out.
> 
> Or maybe I'm simply wrong in that moving out is a legal problem? Other's here said it is.


Google your state and specifically look for info on what is considered child abandonment in your state. It varies by state. Of course, it would be best if you had an attorney to officially advise you on it, but you don't, because then there would be some record that the attorney recommended you to go ahead and stay or go. I don't fear she will fight you on custody and neither do you. She will likely want help with them and want them to see their father. So I doubt it would be an issue. What would be helpful, though, is if you did move out, you sent some money for the child support (you're lucky because you won't need to pay house bills at least) and kept receipts because that would show you had no abandoned your kids at least financially. But like I say, get two jobs and do it asap and start doing that, and keep a paper trail for it. Since you will be low on money at first, you could send a little every week and at least even though it was small, it would show a pattern of regular support. 

Also, keep texts or emails to her where you are asking to arrange shared custody and want to visit the kids. I mean, you can move out and perhaps still come for a visit or just come pick the kids up and take them to McDonald's or whatever. Log all of that, keep receipts just to prove you did it, every time you ask to see them or see them, until this is all settled legally.


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## drencrom (Jul 1, 2021)

jppaul5280 said:


> this is all good info.
> 
> My main fear is leaving would cause a custody problem for me. My wife's a good woman, she wouldn't fight me on shared custody (she loves how good of a father I am), I doubt she's having an affair, etc. My fear is that a judge will make a ruling that neither she nor I want if I move out.
> 
> Or maybe I'm simply wrong in that moving out is a legal problem? Other's here said it is.


Only time moving out can cause a problem is if you both own the home and if you move out you'll end up relinquishing your claim to it....but if that was the case you'd end up being able to force her to pay you half of the equity in it. But since neither of you own it, that's not an issue.

So no, no legal issue in moving out. You just agree on shared custody.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

jppaul5280 said:


> any advice on how to let her know how sorry I am and how I'd like to give her the attention she deserves?


Just being real here, if my husband had ignored me for a long time and the fire that is sparking his newfound interest in me is fear of being on his own, without having access to his kids whenever he wants, I would question his sincerity.

But I think you becoming vulnerable - that you have issues going back to childhood, and that while these aren’t excuses, they have contributed to who you are and how you have become distant, may at least help her listen. I think she needs to see your vulnerability and you working on healing yourself, improving yourself.

Unless you address the root of why you’re distant emotionally and have ignored your wife for so long, your attempts will eventually stall out. Like putting a band aid on someone’s arm hoping to stop them from having a heart attack.

You have to really dig deep and get real with yourself and your wife, otherwise if I were her, I would just feel you fear losing your lifestyle.

I’ll keep you and your wife in my prayers. 🙏


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## Re5.0 (5 mo ago)

jppaul5280 said:


> No, it didn't come out of nowhere. I neglected her and focused on our kids. I love being a dad, but forgot to be a husband.
> 
> I'm focused on myself -- diet, exercise, therapy -- and giving her space. I'm not pushing anything, i'm doing more around the house. I've heard stories where if the guy works on himself, gives her time, that sometimes she'll consider marriage counseling. I know the odds are low, but I have read stories where it has happened, so I'm trying.


I love this idea, keep trying.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

The problem is that when women say they’re done, most really mean it and won’t change their mind. So, yes, continue with diet, exercise and therapy but do it for you and not in the hope that she’ll give you another chance. She may decide to do that but she also may not. This way you’ll be prepared as best you can for a different life.


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## jppaul5280 (5 mo ago)

drencrom said:


> 1 night a week and every other weekend is the norm.


that is not enough. 

Is "open visitation" a thing? Where I can go to my wife's house and take my kids for a walk, hike, snack any time I want?


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## jppaul5280 (5 mo ago)

*Deidre* said:


> I’ll keep you and your wife in my prayers. 🙏





Re5.0 said:


> I love this idea, keep trying.


thanks


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

jppaul5280 said:


> that is not enough.
> 
> Is "open visitation" a thing? Where I can go to my wife's house and take my kids for a walk, hike, snack any time I want?


I’ve never heard of that but if you can get your wife to agree — and she might be happy to — then you’re golden. As long as the two of you decide on the terms and they are equitable and one party doesn’t feel they’re unfair that’s what matters to the judge.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

jppaul5280 said:


> that is not enough.
> 
> Is "open visitation" a thing? Where I can go to my wife's house and take my kids for a walk, hike, snack any time I want?


I don't know why she would want that since she's trying to get you out of the house. Plus all it would do is upset her plans. You would be taking a chance on planning to do it and then finding out she's got something else planned, so I'm saying it's a terrible idea and you need to just do joint custody where you have then X many days and then she has them X many days and during that time, you do everything that needs to be done for them.


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## drencrom (Jul 1, 2021)

jppaul5280 said:


> that is not enough.
> 
> Is "open visitation" a thing? Where I can go to my wife's house and take my kids for a walk, hike, snack any time I want?


I hear you my man. If you can get shared custody and 1/2 time, you are ahead. 

That would be possible if you wife agrees. You'd have to give her a heads up though and it has to work out for them, like if she already has some plans with them.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Most people won't want the frequent contact impromtu visits would require. They're trying to cut back on contact. And the kids have their own lives, too. I don't know why you'd want to be disorganized about it when you could be responsible and organized about it so your kids knew what to expect and when to count on you.


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## drencrom (Jul 1, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I don't know why she would want that since she's trying to get you out of the house.


Well aside from just showing up unannounced, getting him out of the house shouldn't have anything to do with him coming over to get his kids and spend some time with them(not on the premises).

If she is that petty that she will deny him seeing his kids because not only did she want him out of the house, she just doesn't want him in the general area to pick up his kids, then she is a s****y mother.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

drencrom said:


> Well aside from just showing up unannounced, getting him out of the house shouldn't have anything to do with him coming over to get his kids and spend some time with them(not on the premises).
> 
> If she is that petty that she will deny him seeing his kids because not only did she want him out of the house, she just doesn't want him in the general area to pick up his kids, then she is a s****y mother.


You need a custody agreement to avoid fights about it. Otherwise, you are just continuing to have marital problems you are trying to avoid through divorce. How about if he's so petty he doesn't want to commit to a schedule and just wants to show up whenever it's convenient for him?


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

She wants him out of the house and don’t want unannounced visits because she’s going to get and likely already has another man, and OP needs to accept that. Until he accepts she’s done, he’s going to suffer. Forget about reconciling OP. Doing so (forgetting about even trying) is the best chance you have. Pursuing just makes them run faster.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

As for the kids, unless both parents are horrible people, once the dust settles, the welfare of the kids will be most important, and most people set aside the petty stuff...

You just may have to be patient in the beginning...the wounds are fresh...give it a little time, if you are a good dad, she likely won't keep your kids away-even if she doesn't care about you much anymore......No judge or custodian will care(or even know about) what happens with you, your wife and the kids as long as everyone gets along...


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

> drencrom said:
> 
> 
> > 1 night a week and every other weekend is the norm.
> ...


"Open Visitation" is not a thing. You won't get a custody order that says you can go to your wife's house any time you want and hang there with the kids. That's not realistic. I think if you begin viewing it as two completely separate and equal individual homes, that might help you envision it more. 

Also, I'm not sure when @drencrom got the idea that 1 night and every other weekend is the norm. Actually it's my understanding that when both parents actively pursue custody and want to be with their kids, that 50/50 is much closer to normal. Since your kids are 14yo and 11yo, @jppaul5280, and since you've been a primary caregiver the past several years, I see no reason she'd have to claim you are unfit or attempt full custody. 

Thus, my guess would be that you'd get them one week...she'd get them the next week. And what happens is that the kids come to your house and live with you for the full, entire week. During that week, you are fully 100% responsible for feeding and clothing them in your home and getting them to school, etc. The next week, they are at her home and she is fully 100% responsible for feeding and clothing them in her home and getting them to school, etc. Really the way they (courts) track it is "where do the kids sleep at night"? Thus, one week they sleep 7 nights at your house....the next week they sleep 7 nights at her house. 

In addition, often after a divorce is final and the dust settles, the kids may say "Can I go to mom's give her XYZ?" or "Can I go to dad's to watch the ballgame with him?" and parents can agree to just let the kid visit that one time. It's not like you HAVE TO argue. If it's just an occasional thing, sure--no big deal. Now if she were constantly changing the custody schedule or demanding all the holidays or not letting you ever have them on their birthday...then it would be a big deal. 

I think the thing you are going to need to wrap your mind around is that from this point forward you won't have her salary to provide for yourself and the kids half the time. She also won't have your salary and "day care" to provide for herself and the kids half the time. You will live in your house entirely caring for yourself and your kids...and she will live in her house entirely caring for herself and the kids. She has no reason whatsoever to get the kids more than half the time. And based on the fact that you supported her for years and then she supported you, I suspect neither one of you will get alimony or child support. You both have the ability to earn roughly similar. You both have the kids an equal amount of time.

All that's really required is accepting the fact that she no longer wants you, and you need to figure out "How am I going to take care of myself all by myself without anyone else 'helping me'?" Work two jobs? Find a better paying job? You need to start thinking about this.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Affaircare said:


> "Open Visitation" is not a thing. You won't get a custody order that says you can go to your wife's house any time you want and hang there with the kids. That's not realistic. I think if you begin viewing it as two completely separate and equal individual homes, that might help you envision it more.
> 
> Also, I'm not sure when @drencrom got the idea that 1 night and every other weekend is the norm. Actually it's my understanding that when both parents actively pursue custody and want to be with their kids, that 50/50 is much closer to normal. Since your kids are 14yo and 11yo, @jppaul5280, and since you've been a primary caregiver the past several years, I see no reason she'd have to claim you are unfit or attempt full custody.
> 
> ...


I know 2 divorced women in my neighborhood where the father bought a house a couple miles down the road so it would be easy for kids to go back and forth. Worked out well for all involved.

Isn't always possible but if it is its great. I'm in a pretty large community so lots of options if you can afford it and both people can be adults.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

lifeistooshort said:


> I know 2 divorced women in my neighborhood where the father bought a house a couple miles down the road so it would be easy for kids to go back and forth. Worked out well for all involved.
> 
> Isn't always possible but if it is its great. I'm in a pretty large community so lots of options if you can afford it and both people can be adults.


Yep, in my instance, the kids were 2nd grade and 5th grade, their elementary school was "in the middle" and I was 1.5 miles west and my exH got a house 1.5 miles east. We were 3 miles apart from each other, and the kids rode bikes to school, so they could always ride over to his house and spend the night, or ride to my house and pick up the paper they forgot. Our main rule was that they didn't swap clothes or food from one parent's house to the other. Each house had kids' clothes, kids' beds and furniture, kids' toys...each was fully equipped.

We did exchanges on Mondays--one parent got them to school in the morning, they rode to the other parent's home after school. And our agreement was to wash the "other parent's" clothes and put them in the kid's backpack clean.

Each kid had their own backpack with essentially a Daytimer calendar for that kid. Any appointments, practices, ballgames etc. were written on that kid's Daytimer, and it was the parents' jobs to look at the Daytimer. We did not call and ask each other "When is the school play?" Each parent did their own job being in touch with the kids' lives. School events (like performances or open house) we made two separate appointments (usually one right after the other) or just sat on opposite ends of the auditorium. But we were civil enough if we ran into each other. We did NOT sit together at a performance or at baseball practice!! But we didn't make a fuss either. Just "Hello. How are you? Good? Yeah me too. Bye now!"

We alternated birthdays and holidays. S1 had odd year birthdays with dad, even year birthdays with mom...and S2 same thing. Parent A had Halloween, B had Thanksgiving, A had Christmas Eve, B had Christmas Day, and alternating New Years Eves. My exH tended to like to be a Disney Dad, so I tended to have the more mundane days and he'd ask for them for a birthday or holiday so he could sort of show off and give gifts etc. I wanted more actual DAYS and he wanted "holidays" so, although it was 50/50 legal and physical custody, I ended up with them day-to-day and he liked them when he wanted them and he did like holidays. So in the end, I asked for Halloween, he usually got Thanksgiving and Chrismas, and I did "the week after Christmas to New Years Eve" as kind of a cool new tradition...little presents all that week!


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

jppaul5280 said:


> Is "open visitation" a thing? Where I can go to my wife's house and take my kids for a walk, hike, snack any time I want?


I suppose it's possible, but you'd need to be clear about boundaries between you and your ex. You also have to be ready to walk in and find her getting ready for or about to go on a date. It would require a very careful arrangement but it could be done.


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## jppaul5280 (5 mo ago)

drencrom said:


> I hear you my man. If you can get shared custody and 1/2 time, you are ahead.
> 
> That would be possible if you wife agrees. You'd have to give her a heads up though and it has to work out for them, like if she already has some plans with them.


we had a very good and productive talk this afternoon. She doesn't hate me, she just doesn't love me any more. I still hope to reconcile and rebuild. I know that's very unlikely, but not impossible. In the meantime, everything seems very kind and considerate. Funny thing is, I'm sure she'd be fine with me taking my kids any time my kids want since I spend more time with them than she does.

My competition for time with my kids isn't my wife, but their friends. However, a 15 minute walk around the neighborhood with them individually gets them to open up about their day. 30 minutes a day would allow me to keep up with their lives.

drencrom, thank you, you and some others here have been extremely helpful to me in navigating this insanity


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## jppaul5280 (5 mo ago)

Evinrude58 said:


> Doing so (forgetting about even trying) is the best chance you have. Pursuing just makes them run faster.


to be clear, I'm not pursuing her.


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## jppaul5280 (5 mo ago)

hamadryad said:


> As for the kids, unless both parents are horrible people, once the dust settles, the welfare of the kids will be most important, and most people set aside the petty stuff...
> 
> You just may have to be patient in the beginning...the wounds are fresh...give it a little time, if you are a good dad, she likely won't keep your kids away-even if she doesn't care about you much anymore......No judge or custodian will care(or even know about) what happens with you, your wife and the kids as long as everyone gets along...


thanks. good to know that judges won't care if she and I agree to whatever.

as mentioned we had a long talk, she might not be in love with me any more, but she said she still cares about me and wants me in her life, to whatever extent that means. And more specifically, wants me fully involved in our kids lives. 

I wasn't a good husband, but she loves that I'm a good father.


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## jppaul5280 (5 mo ago)

Affaircare said:


> Since your kids are 14yo and 11yo, @jppaul5280, and since you've been a primary caregiver the past several years, I see no reason she'd have to claim you are unfit or attempt full custody.
> 
> Thus, my guess would be that you'd get them one week...she'd get them the next week. And what happens is that the kids come to your house and live with you for the full, entire week. During that week, you are fully 100% responsible for feeding and clothing them in your home and getting them to school, etc. The next week, they are at her home and she is fully 100% responsible for feeding and clothing them in her home and getting them to school, etc


thanks for the insights!

Her new job prevents her from being fully 100% responsible and committed as she's on-call 24/7. She was supposed to drive my son to school today (20 miles away to a high school with a special focus on science), but was called into work at 445am. So I took him to school.


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## jppaul5280 (5 mo ago)

Affaircare said:


> Yep, in my instance, the kids were 2nd grade and 5th grade, their elementary school was "in the middle" and I was 1.5 miles west and my exH got a house 1.5 miles east. We were 3 miles apart from each other, and the kids rode bikes to school, so they could always ride over to his house and spend the night, or ride to my house and pick up the paper they forgot. Our main rule was that they didn't swap clothes or food from one parent's house to the other. Each house had kids' clothes, kids' beds and furniture, kids' toys...each was fully equipped.
> 
> We did exchanges on Mondays--one parent got them to school in the morning, they rode to the other parent's home after school. And our agreement was to wash the "other parent's" clothes and put them in the kid's backpack clean.
> 
> ...


thank you so much for insights on how you handled things. That helps me clarify options on how this might work.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Glad things seem to be amicable. I'd imagine hearing that she doesn't love you anymore, wasn't your brightest moment in life, but at least you both are able to talk openly and honestly. Just work on you now, that's all you can do...and if it's meant to be (really don't love that phrase, but it kind of fits here lol) it will work itself out. If not, then hopefully you have some time to get your own life together to move out and start a life on your own.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

jppaul5280 said:


> that is not enough.
> 
> Is "open visitation" a thing? Where I can go to my wife's house and take my kids for a walk, hike, snack any time I want?


Don't move out without a signed custody agreement in place. That's all you need to say. "Okay, I'll move out once we have child access and division of assets worked out, so I can house-hunt and get a suitable new place."

Go for 50-50 at the very least. The kids live half the time at your house with you, half with their mom at her house. It doesn't have to be alternating weeks; there are other schedules like 2-2-5 (one parent gets Mondays and Tuesdays, the other gets Wednesdays and Thursdays, and then alternate weekends) that work better for some people.

If your wife's work needs make things difficult for her to parent, you may find that she would be receptive to having the kids reside more than 50% of the time with you. Or even if it's 50% on paper, you may find that the kids are with you unexpectedly on her time, due to her work demands. And since these are older kids, they may also just come over to your place on a whim. Especially if it's conveniently located near their school, friends, activities, or work. Keep that in mind while seeking your home.

Since her salary is greater than yours, she'll owe you child support in some fashion, if you have 50% or more custody. That will help you afford the home you need to house the children. Since her parents own the house you live in, your half of the marital assets won't likely be enough for a down payment so you'll probably end up renting. Unless you've been building up equity in some other fashion while saving on rent?

The thing you can't do is dig in your heels and refuse to leave. She's done being married to you, and her parents own the home. It's unlikely she's going to change her mind about getting divorced, but she's certainly not going to do it if you are uncooperative right now. Focus on the kids, and how to do this the best way for them. Do some research, including consulting a lawyer if need be, about family law in your area. Come up with ways to fairly divide the saving and debts, the objects you own, and the kids' time, and customize it to your situation. If there are activities you regularly do with a kid, pick a schedule that maintains that. If she works longer hours than you do, put in the schedule that you get the kids after school for two hours even on her days. Whatever you can come up with that works out to at least 50% time in your favour.

She'll accept your offer, or counter with one of her own, and there will be back-and-forthing for a while. During that time, maximize your time with the kids as much as possible. If you have to leave the house to go do something, invite the kids to come with you. Don't go get a second job and suddenly not be there anymore.

Living there until this is sorted out is going to be hard, emotionally, since you don't want this divorce. But that's how it goes in divorce - even if only one person wants it, that's all it takes. Be strong for your kids, and don't let your wife take advantage of your desire to stay married to manipulate you. Make changes to become a better person, sure, but do them for YOU, not in the hopes your wife will change her mind. Change only sticks if you do it for YOU anyway.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

jppaul5280 said:


> thanks for the insights!
> 
> Her new job prevents her from being fully 100% responsible and committed as she's on-call 24/7. She was supposed to drive my son to school today (20 miles away to a high school with a special focus on science), but was called into work at 445am. So I took him to school.


So, let's get this straight. Your wife wants you out of the house ASAP, so you get to live someplace else, whilst she lives at home with the children.

However, she has a job which means she could be called into work at, say, 11pm, and work all night leaving the children completely alone, with no adult supervision at all?

Is she for real? I mean, seriously? That's her plan?

Under the circumstances of her job, it would better be her who moved out, not you.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> So, let's get this straight. Your wife wants you out of the house ASAP, so you get to live someplace else, whilst she lives at home with the children.
> 
> However, she has a job which means she could be called into work at, say, 11pm, and work all night leaving the children completely alone, with no adult supervision at all?
> 
> ...


Except that it's her mother's house. He's been living rent free in a house that someone else bought, so why should she move out? So he can keep living rent free off of her mother?

I suppose it never occurred to him that he should have his own place.

They'll have to work out the supervision. It's quite possible that when she's faced with leaving them unsupervised she'll rearrange her schedule.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> Except that it's her mother's house. He's been living rent free in a house that someone else bought, so why should she move out? So he can keep living rent free off of her mother?
> 
> I suppose it never occurred to him that he should have his own place.
> 
> They'll have to work out the supervision. It's quite possible that when she's faced with leaving them unsupervised she'll rearrange her schedule.


Or she will call him up at X O'clock and say: "Honey, can you come look after the kids? I have to be at work in 30 minutes."


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> Or she will call him up at X O'clock and say: "Honey, can you come look after the kids? I have to be at work in 30 minutes."


If that happens he should say no. He can't structure his life around her on call unpredictable work schedule so she'll have to figure out how to parent when she has them.

If she can't do it he can ask for more custody and she cab pay him child support.

This is the reality of divorce. He won't be able to move on with his life if he'd at her beck and call.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

In Absentia said:


> _*Lures him into her house, gets him to father two kids and then she dumps him, telling him to move out of her house... what would you call it? *_



I'd call it stupid.

Who the hell purposely plots to be a single mother? Either this woman is so hideous that she HAD to give him free housing just to get _someone_ to impregnate her, or she didn't give a crap whose sperm she was using. 

Either scenario is pretty feeble.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

DudeInProgress said:


> _*She has either lost respect and attraction for you as a man and a husband because you’re not bringing enough to the table on multiple levels.*_



I'm laying my money down on this one.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

*


jppaul5280 said:



we have no savings. My wife wanted a new van last year, so we got one and the payments. My wife wanted an expensive vacation so she took out a loan.

Click to expand...

*How does this happen when you two have been sponging off her parents and living with them RENT FREE????

The both of you seriously need to grow up and start making wiser choices. You're both making decent salaries (so you claim) and not even paying a mortgage or property taxes and you have nothing to show for it?


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

*


jppaul5280 said:



we had a very good and productive talk this afternoon. She doesn't hate me, she just doesn't love me any more. I still hope to reconcile and rebuild.

Click to expand...

*She was HONEST with you and *told *you exactly how she feels.

Find your dignity and accept what she's told you.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

MattMatt said:


> Or she will call him up at X O'clock and say: "Honey, can you come look after the kids? I have to be at work in 30 minutes."


Or child care or her mother.


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## jppaul5280 (5 mo ago)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> Don't move out without a signed custody agreement in place. That's all you need to say. "Okay, I'll move out once we have child access and division of assets worked out, so I can house-hunt and get a suitable new place."
> 
> Go for 50-50 at the very least. The kids live half the time at your house with you, half with their mom at her house. It doesn't have to be alternating weeks; there are other schedules like 2-2-5 (one parent gets Mondays and Tuesdays, the other gets Wednesdays and Thursdays, and then alternate weekends) that work better for some people.
> 
> ...


Great post! Thank you

Can you elaborate on "don't let your wife take advantage of your desire to stay married to manipulate you."


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## jppaul5280 (5 mo ago)

MattMatt said:


> So, let's get this straight. Your wife wants you out of the house ASAP, so you get to live someplace else, whilst she lives at home with the children.
> 
> However, she has a job which means she could be called into work at, say, 11pm, and work all night leaving the children completely alone, with no adult supervision at all?
> 
> Is she for real? I mean, seriously? That's her plan?


Yeah


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

jppaul5280 said:


> Great post! Thank you
> 
> Can you elaborate on "don't let your wife take advantage of your desire to stay married to manipulate you."


Power lies with the person that cares the least about the marriage. If she knows you want to save the marriage at all costs and she is just, meh, about it she has the leverage over you. It kind of dovetails with the saying that you have to be willing to lose the marriage in order to save it.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

She’s seeing another man.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> Don't move out without a signed custody agreement in place. That's all you need to say. "Okay, I'll move out once we have child access and division of assets worked out, so I can house-hunt and get a suitable new place."
> 
> Go for 50-50 at the very least. The kids live half the time at your house with you, half with their mom at her house. It doesn't have to be alternating weeks; there are other schedules like 2-2-5 (one parent gets Mondays and Tuesdays, the other gets Wednesdays and Thursdays, and then alternate weekends) that work better for some people.
> 
> ...


I agree with this except that first, he needs to get himself financially solvent. The kids can't go live in an alley with him. That's why I just say go get two jobs right now and start saving. Then he can get a place suitable for the kids and himself and get 50/50 custody.

He's working against himself right now by denying that his wife is really going to leave him and he is really going to have to get out and stand on his own two feet. 

Just because she doesn't hate you doesn't change a thing. She's done living with you and being married to you.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

30 hrs a week? Why don’t you already have a second job? Well, you’re going to need one now. Your wife has communicated to you plainly that she wants you gone. Best move out on your schedule instead of waiting and getting thrown out on hers. 
To think you’re going to be able to fix this is illogical.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Once there is an attorney involved, any foot dragging will be added to the tab of the foot dragger in the settlement.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

MattMatt said:


> So, let's get this straight. Your wife wants you out of the house ASAP, so you get to live someplace else, whilst she lives at home with the children.
> 
> However, she has a job which means she could be called into work at, say, 11pm, and work all night leaving the children completely alone, with no adult supervision at all?
> 
> ...


And why would she move out of a house her parents own?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

jppaul5280 said:


> that is not enough.
> 
> Is "open visitation" a thing? Where I can go to my wife's house and take my kids for a walk, hike, snack any time I want?


Here's a link to the Colorado courts self-help section. If you poke around, you can find the forms you need and instructions.
Colorado Judicial Branch - Self Help - Child Custody without a Marriage or Civil Union - Forms (state.co.us)


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Anastasia6 said:


> And why would she move out of a house her parents own?


Because she obviously wants what's best for their children, right? 

Unless she wants the children to go live with him?


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

jppaul5280 said:


> thanks!
> 
> yes, *she currently makes twice what I do*, but I was the primary earner for about a dozen years. No retirement accts. We both take care of the kids. She's a good mom.


****
DownByTheRiver said:
What percent of the household income have you been bringing in consistently in the last 2 years?



jppaul5280 said:


> *maybe 50%*?


That's two different answers. Say if you made $30K, then according to your first answer, that would mean she made twice that at $60K. So that would make your percentage of current income 30%, not 50%. 

Either way, time to get that second job and get some savings for your own place. A lot of companies that work people 30 hrs do it so they don't have to do benefits. And a lot of them have no intention of ever moving people to full-time. Have you seen people being moved to full-time? 

Why wait when you could be also working a second job and then if they want you full-time, you could quit it. You need money to support yourself and the kids.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> Because she obviously wants what's best for their children, right?
> 
> Unless she wants the children to go live with him?



What's best for the children is for their father to work full time, get on his feet and get his own place for them to come to. She'll have to adjust her work schedule.

He's not going to keep living rent free off of her mother.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

DownByTheRiver said:


> ****
> DownByTheRiver said:
> What percent of the household income have you been bringing in consistently in the last 2 years?
> 
> ...


He says he works 30 hrs a week, not that he earns $30K


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

EleGirl said:


> He says he works 30 hrs a week, not that he earns $30K


That's not what I said, though. First he said she makes twice as much as him. Later, he says he makes 50% of their income, which would be the same as her. I was only using 30 as a math example to illustrate how his two statements contradict each other. Because if his first statement is the true one, IF he for example made 30K, that would mean, she made $60K for a total household income of $90K. And that would make his 30 percent of their total, not 50 percent as his later statements said.


IF their combined income were for example 90K and he was 50%, that would make them both earning 45K each. I'm just pointing out two different answers to that question of current income.

All confused more by the fact he works 30 hours a week, of course.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

lifeistooshort said:


> What's best for the children is for their father to work full time, get on his feet and get his own place for them to come to. She'll have to adjust her work schedule.
> 
> He's not going to keep living rent free off of her mother.


Yes. That would be a much better role model for the kids, too.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

EleGirl said:


> He says he works 30 hrs a week, not that he earns $30K


I put a "then" in my post up there because I see where the confusion came in.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

jppaul5280 said:


> any advice on how to let her know how sorry I am and how I'd like to give her the attention she deserves?


I believe I answered this already. Have you taken any action?


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

jppaul5280 said:


> Great post! Thank you
> 
> Can you elaborate on "don't let your wife take advantage of your desire to stay married to manipulate you."


She might hint that she's willing to reconsider breaking up if you'll start doing XYZ. So you do those things, thinking there's a chance, but she really just wanted you to do XYZ.

Or you might just naturally start doing things in the hopes she'll fall back in love with the new improved you. She very likely won't, but meanwhile you're probably doing more than your fair share of something that benefits her.


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## drencrom (Jul 1, 2021)

Affaircare said:


> Also, I'm not sure when @drencrom got the idea that 1 night and every other weekend is the norm. Actually it's my understanding that when both parents actively pursue custody and want to be with their kids, that 50/50 is much closer to normal. Since your kids are 14yo and 11yo, @jppaul5280, and since you've been a primary caregiver the past several years, I see no reason she'd have to claim you are unfit or attempt full custody.


That is the norm if one parent wants to be the custodial parent, wants child support and does not want 50/50. The non-custodial parent, usually the father, will then get visitation every other weekend and at least one night a week.

Where I got the idea was from an attorney.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

drencrom said:


> That is the norm if one parent wants to be the custodial parent, wants child support and does not want 50/50. The non-custodial parent, usually the father, will then get visitation every other weekend and at least one night a week.
> 
> Where I got the idea was from an attorney.


Not in my state. If parents want 50/50 that's what it is (you have to be a proved heinous parent to get less than that), it's even in the statutes, the court strives for 50 50 as both parents should raise the children.


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## drencrom (Jul 1, 2021)

Livvie said:


> Not in my state. If parents want 50/50 that's what it is (you have to be a proved heinous parent to get less than that), it's even in the statutes, the court strives for 50 50 as both parents should raise the children.


Again, yes, IF parents WANT it. If one does not and does not want 50/50, it isn't likely going to happen. I agree 50/50 is the way it should be. But here in liberal Illinois, they don't see it that way. If one parent contests 50/50, it will not happen and the courts view here is that the child should have a main residence that they reside a majority of the time.


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## David60525 (Oct 5, 2021)

jppaul5280 said:


> Wife told me Saturday she wants to split up, then Sunday that I should move out. We have two kids. I'm not ready to move out emotionally or financially.
> 
> I want to save my marriage, doing things to that end, I love my wife, but the idea of not living with my kids is causing panic attacks.
> 
> ...


Hey if your name is not on the deed, she will go to court to kick you out with a false claim of abuse. Stop paying for living there, get you money in order, see a lawyer asap.
You two are done. Don't beg to stay. Be a man and stick up for yourself, as long as you are married you are the master. Ephesians.
Best get life in order to get safe lodging a new start over thing. BTW any equity in the home is the parents not two of you. She will know the error. She chose it, help her live it forever 
If kids in, you won't win either. Your done.


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## David60525 (Oct 5, 2021)

jppaul5280 said:


> Wife told me Saturday she wants to split up, then Sunday that I should move out. We have two kids. I'm not ready to move out emotionally or financially.
> 
> I want to save my marriage, doing things to that end, I love my wife, but the idea of not living with my kids is causing panic attacks.
> 
> ...


One last effort 
Both read how marriage works by John gottman,
Phd


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