# Married with children yet... lonely



## JustAFamilyMan (Aug 27, 2015)

I can't believe I'm typing any of this frankly. Not here. Not anywhere someone I don't know could read it. Yet, here I am. Keeping details sparse and vague anyway.

I'm a man. I've been married for more than a decade. We spent several years together before having children, but now have more than one. I would love to say the issues began after children arrived. If so, I'd believe that once they're a little older everything will be fine. The reality is they started early in the relationship. It ebbed and flowed, but I made a commitment. So did she. We worked through it. We've been to counseling. I've spoken with relatives. I've spoken with friends.

Even more than our marriage, she is committed to unhappiness. I earn enough such that she's never had to work and still does not. While I have not always remained in the best of physical shape, I've been fairly fit for a good portion of our relationship. At my fittest, things do not improve. If anything, they get worse. She's quick to insult or complain, but compliments are rarely if ever shared. The smallest inconveniences send her into tiny tantrums. Our oldest child has begun to pick up on her depression and asks if she is happy or sad. There are times I feel I am walking across thin ice on a warm day just being in her presence. I can only imagine how that feels to a young child.

She's seen people individually to help. Licensed therapists. She's been off and on medication. There is no noticeable difference. Perhaps fewer absolute breakdowns. 

She's a good mother when happy, a very good mother. She's dedicated. Attentive. Addresses every need in terms of the basics. She can be loving and affectionate with them, though never with the same warmth the children and I share.

I struggle with insecurity, in general, but I've grown exceedingly less confident as the marriage continues and her general apathy towards me continues. Yet, there are times where I notice reactions from strangers or those I am around daily that indicate perhaps it's not what I fear. I then see-saw between confidence and insecurity, and it leaves me a mess because the opinion I care most about is only positive when forced or dragged out into the open, leaving me to doubt it. 

Frankly, I'm lost. My love for my children is so unconditional and deep that I can never regret any past decision that led to their existence. I can also never entertain a future where I have even less contact with them, even less influence over their emotional health and well being. So, it is resolved in my mind that I will never leave or take actions that will risk divorce. I couldn't bear to do that to my children. Yet, I've also reached a point where I am completely out of energy to keep trying to make the relationship work as a couple.

I initiate and plan all dates. I initiate 99% of the intimacy and the 1% feels random and strangely out of place when it does occur. I initiate 99%+ of the warm moments, small things like a hug or kiss or brush of the shoulder. When I stop, she notices, and asks what's wrong. This is now a 10+ year cycle. I'm exhausted by it. It saddens me, but I recognize that what love I have for her does not resemble the love I once had. Even worse, I'm afraid she does not have the tools and is not committed to developing the tools to repair the relationship. If I stop trying, when I stop trying, we will truly just be parents to children. Not a couple. 

Perhaps when they're older, late high school or in college, I can re-evaluate. But I'm just feeling a little sickened at the reality of so many more years spent feeling utterly alone in that way. Of so much of my life and opportunity gone. Of knowing that as I age, the partner I'd hoped I found to grow old with will not only not be there, but in so many ways is already gone.

Sorry for the rambling rant, but another night of feeling unwelcome in my own home has me reeling today.


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## Dissevered Soul (Mar 4, 2014)

I understand exactly how you feel. I was the same way when we first started reproducing, I got severely depressed. I stopped initiating affection. I felt like my marriage was crumbling. We fought all the time. Slept together rarely. It was horrible. I used to call her a "zombie" because it felt like she was never here with me, always wrapped up in other things. It all started shortly after we had kids, but the issues were the same as they were before we were together, just amplified. I love TAM, but to be totally honest alot of people here are going to tell you to leave, and you're going to want to. For once, I want to play repairman instead of dissembler.

Nobody really talks about what having kids does to a man like you or me, who are affection speakers in the love languages. You get less attention. She won't be as affectionate, because her energies are directed elsewhere (As yours should be, too). She STILL loves you. She loves you with all her heart. There is something about fathering her children that sets you in concrete in her heart, forever. She might not initiate affection, but does she deny you any form of hugging or kissing? Does she clean the house for you, buy you gifts, spend a lot of time with you? Everyone expresses love differently.

You can't change her behavior, but you can change your attitude. Realize that she loves you. Give her the affection like you always have. Hug her when you come home, kiss her on the weekends and before bed. You'll be amazed how quickly she'll get used to it. She still won't initiate, but you will feel better anyway. Remember she is the mother of your children. You guys have the life that so many people can only dream of, don't let is squander over a small period of depression on either of your parts. 

You can't change her back to the woman she used to be, my wife still isn't. you can either cut her loose and run, or you can fall in love with her again. It's your choice.


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## JustAFamilyMan (Aug 27, 2015)

No, leaving isn't an option. Less for us and more because of the family. Less time with my kids, and just as important, our kids having time with her and anyone she'd meet but not me, would be something I could not live with. Ever. I also won't entertain actions that would lead to divorce, such as straying or laying down ultimatums. My kids are too important.

As for the relationship, it didn't start with the kids unfortunately. Now, that isn't to say that it wouldn't have improved without the kids siphoning away so much energy. Maybe it would have. But they do not seem worse or better than before children.

She cleans, but not "for me", and only recently as before that we paid for bi-weekly house cleaning. She just hasn't found new cleaners she likes. Does not buy me gifts, ever, but I also don't really have anything I want/need I don't buy for myself. She prefers the company of an iPad and bed over me. I have to ask for time and get it only after she says no, gives in, and then complains that I've made her feel guilty. Frankly, I try to balance too her need for time for herself and take care of the kids as often as I'm able to let her do her thing. She doesn't really deny hugging, somewhat kissing and certainly other forms of intimacy are extraordinarily rare. 

I do not doubt that she loves me, but I do wonder very much what that love looks like today. 

I'm not going to cut loose and run. My kids are way, way too important and are not responsible for my life choices. I would like fix the relationship, but we've entered a phase where relying entirely and solely on my energy to fix it isn't realistic. I've poured in and poured in and poured in. I need to rebuild my supply of energy before I can do that again.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

OP,
Allow me to offer a reasonably simple thought for your consideration. When life is easy we expect more from it and become disappointed when we do not get it. When life is hard we appreciate even the smallest positive event and learn to treasure those moments.

When things are easy we lose appreciation for them because they are no longer special. The easier something is to obtain or acquire the less value we place on it. Conversely, when something requires hard work, diligence and dedication it becomes more valuable to us because it represents something not easily replaced.

In marriage, when we make things too easy, they are often taken for granted and not appreciated. Your wife, as a SAHM, probably has life relatively easy and may therefore have less appreciation for you and what you provide. Just something to ponder.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

I'm afraid that this is not going to get better as long as she is getting her needs met. She does only what she pleases and you do everything else, so why should she change?

Actually, she sounds like she has a personality disorder, from your description of walking on thin ice around her. That is quite representative of the way that people feel around BPD people (see below), and is also very bad for your children (as you have already noted).

In addition, I think your situation is sending a very bad message to your children, that one person in a married couple can mistreat the other one, who will put up with it.

I'm not a big fan of divorce, but I think you will have to be willing to lose your marriage to save it. If you could get custody of your children, would you divorce her?

Otherwise you are going to have to resign yourself to feeling this way for a very long time:

"But I'm just feeling a little sickened at the reality of so many more years spent feeling utterly alone in that way. Of so much of my life and opportunity gone. Of knowing that as I age, the partner I'd hoped I found to grow old with will not only not be there, but in so many ways is already gone."

Do you really want to live the rest of your life that way? It isn't going to get better if she is BPD. Read the description of that here:

NIMH » Borderline Personality Disorder


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## hotshotdot (Jul 28, 2015)

As one therapist had described during counseling with my ex, your "love bank" is overdrawn. Simply, you can't write anymore checks (give love to her) without her making a deposit. 

If you want to stay together you need to continue counseling. If for no other reason than it keeps you communicating & also lets you get your feelings out. She may not get anything out of it, but you can't shut your feelings down & pretend everything is okay, & at least you'll feel like you're doing something about it. I think she needs help but you can't force her to get it. You can request that she go to counseling together though. I hope you do. It is miserable to be married & lonely & it's not going to get better on its own.


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## Roselyn (Sep 19, 2010)

You've made up your mind to stay in a passionless marriage because you have children. How old are you and your wife? How long have you been married and what ages are your children?

You said that you have been to therapists without much progress. Do you want to spend your life this way? This is a very sad life for anyone. Lonely is the same as non-existence. I strongly advise that you see a psychologist for you. You need to get your head straight. Your life is that of a "living dead". Personally speaking, I could not live your life. You should thrive in a marriage, not merely survive.

Sorry that you are here.


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## JustAFamilyMan (Aug 27, 2015)

NoChoice said:


> OP,
> Allow me to offer a reasonably simple thought for your consideration. When life is easy we expect more from it and become disappointed when we do not get it. When life is hard we appreciate even the smallest positive event and learn to treasure those moments..... Your wife, as a SAHM, probably has life relatively easy and may therefore have less appreciation for you and what you provide. Just something to ponder.


It's hard to picture her life as easy. There are some things that are much easier for her than many of course, but two young children can be taxing and provide little break or room to be a person.

There definitely is something to the concept of taking our life for granted though, and a big part of that being taking me for granted. Yet, I don't know how to fix it, and don't know whether the value I place on myself is accurately or appropriately placed. I don't mean that in the "am I a valuable person" sense by which most everyone is of substantial value. I mean the more superficial "are they a catch" values...

Ugh. Thanks for the reply though.


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## JustAFamilyMan (Aug 27, 2015)

technovelist said:


> In addition, I think your situation is sending a very bad message to your children, that one person in a married couple can mistreat the other one, who will put up with it.


I hope the message will be, be very careful before you enter a marriage and recognize that once you have children, they become the most important part of your life until they're old enough to be on their own. I hope that is what they take away from it. She's not hitting me or the kids. She's not abusing substances of any kind. She's not abusive with the children. I'm missing something, certainly, but it's not the sort of situation where I feel the damage to the kids would be less by my leaving.



technovelist said:


> If you could get custody of your children, would you divorce her?


100% custody, where she has total visitation access but no overnights? Maybe. It would place the conversation in a whole new perspective certainly. The kids being with her is important to me too though.



technovelist said:


> Do you really want to live the rest of your life that way?


No, but I've made decisions that lead me here. My kids didn't have a say in it.

I appreciate the advice and concern though. I wish there were easier answers.


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## JustAFamilyMan (Aug 27, 2015)

Roselyn said:


> You've made up your mind to stay in a passionless marriage because you have children. How old are you and your wife?


Mid thirties.



Roselyn said:


> How long have you been married and what ages are your children?


More than a decade. Both are younger than four years old. 



Roselyn said:


> You said that you have been to therapists without much progress. Do you want to spend your life this way?  This is a very sad life for anyone. Lonely is the same as non-existence. I strongly advise that you see a psychologist for you. You need to get your head straight. Your life is that of a "living dead". Personally speaking, I could not live your life. You should thrive in a marriage, not merely survive.
> 
> Sorry that you are here.


I've seen one. You eventually run out of new advice to hear and new words to say. This was "new" for me, and was helpful. Certainly gave me just a small amount of new energy to throw into the relationship again. It's so hit and miss. I feel like I never know which marriage I'm going to be in day to day. The one that has lots of hope, or the one that leaves me feeling completely lost and thankful I can throw myself into my kids.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

JustAFamilyMan said:


> I hope the message will be, be very careful before you enter a marriage and recognize that once you have children, they become the most important part of your life until they're old enough to be on their own. I hope that is what they take away from it. She's not hitting me or the kids. She's not abusing substances of any kind. She's not abusive with the children. I'm missing something, certainly, but it's not the sort of situation where I feel the damage to the kids would be less by my leaving.


Based on what you wrote, she is mentally abusing you. The kids learn by this as well, they see it plain as day.


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## Constable Odo (Feb 14, 2015)

JustAFamilyMan said:


> So, it is resolved in my mind that I will never leave or take actions that will risk divorce.


So, why are you here then? Other than to vent? Since your mind is already made up, you're not going to take any advice that people here give to you.

Children learn from their parents. Your wife's actions and yours will imprint on your children how they will behave in their relations in the future. They see how you and your wife interact with one another, and accept that as the "norm" for what a relationship should be.

Thus, by not leaving and bringing your children up in an environment where they can see what a normal, loving relationship looks like, you are condemning them to their own misery in their future.

Your inaction, IMO, borders on child abuse.


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## JustAFamilyMan (Aug 27, 2015)

Constable Odo said:


> So, why are you here then? Other than to vent? Since your mind is already made up, you're not going to take any advice that people here give to you.
> 
> Children learn from their parents. Your wife's actions and yours will imprint on your children how they will behave in their relations in the future. They see how you and your wife interact with one another, and accept that as the "norm" for what a relationship should be.
> 
> ...


Venting played a large role, but not in its entirety. I also imagined (and received) some advice that did not demand divorce as the next and only step to take. I was optimistic that someone would pass something along, perhaps unknowingly or by accident even, that would be help I'd not considered before. Writing something out also helps to organize your thoughts.

There are no steps forward that will not have an affect on my children. None. If I stay, I must find ways to constantly and consistently provide the energy necessary to make the relationship as loving as is possible. I know they will see something different from her. I know they'll experience a different love from her than what I will give. Yet, if I leave, there is no pretending there will not be issues there as well.

How well would a step-father love them and treat them? One I do not know? One who she would choose at a period in her life where her options are greatly reduced, her confidence shaken? When they would be alone with her and whomever, how much better would the love be then? How much worse off by not being with me seven days a week?

Not to mention, isn't there something to be said for teaching them that part of being a parent to your children is sublimating your own wants and needs for what is best for them, for what you believe in your heart of hearts is best? If I believed we were doing more harm to them by being together than we would being apart? There is no question what I would do. But I'm here, every day, and I just don't see the situation as being so dire as to scar them compared to the incredible hurt and pain they would feel with such a loss this early in their development. They frankly would not understand. My oldest barely understands that I must leave for work.

I appreciate the concern, and I know the advice is coming from a good place, but I hope you'd agree that the complexity of each situation is matched by the complexity of the right response. Marriages are kept alive by actions we take each and every day. Every day is a new opportunity to judge whether I'm making the right decisions. What I decide today may not be what I decide tomorrow, but my children's best interests are all I care about and that is something that will never change.


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## cvd (Aug 20, 2015)

Your situation sounds really tough. It's hard to keep your spirits up when you're in a relationship that's one-sided. I think you should continue with counseling for yourself. See a new counselor. Every counselor puts their own bent onto things and will give you more perspective. Become an expert at taking care of yourself emotionally and not relying on your wife for those needs. You can still seek her affection but don't be surprised when you get little in return (for whatever reason). The idea here is to become self-sufficient emotionally. I don't mean being hurtful to your wife or distant but just that you can find ways to be emotionally centered and fulfilled inside yourself. 

I know this is not what you wanted in your marriage but who knows? Maybe she will become a little more emotionally healthy herself as the kids get older...or maybe she'll start a medication that helps...or maybe she'll grow up and realize she needs to give more of herself...or maybe nothing will change. You have said you are not leaving the marriage and I can understand your reluctance. You're invested in your kids. As long as she is not emotionally cruel to anyone but it is more a withdrawn thing then maybe things will bump along okay. 

You say your wife does okay with the children right now. Keep a watch on that. Some mental illnesses are progressive, especially if the person is reluctant to take meds or to work on themselves. If your wife starts becoming really withdrawn from the kids or her mood swings go far up and down then you may have to take action and do something to protect your kids mental health. Please realize that if your wife has a serious mental illness then your kids are genetically predisposed to it as well. Their mental health needs to be cared for and prioritized over your desire to stay in your marriage. They may need more protection from your wife's emotional problems. It doesn't sound like you are at this place yet but there are tons of red flags that point to potential issues. 

This is why YOU need to remain in ongoing counseling as long as you choose to remain in this relationship. First of all you should do it for your own mental well-being and secondly to get outside feedback on the health of your marriage.

I say all of this because my first husband had a personality disorder and it was awful. I stayed in the marriage until the kids were 10 and 13 because I didn't want to disrupt their lives. By the time I finally left, my husband was abusing drugs to self-medicate (he refused to take prescribed meds) and his moods were so up and down that I lived in fear. To the kids he was a little less extreme but they knew he had problems. After I left I found out he had been living a double life with friends and activities I knew nothing about. Personality disorders can cause these kinds of things to happen. When I first met him he was a loving person but his mental illness got worse and worse as time went on.

The other thing I want to share is that I've learned, of course, that I have problems too. I'm too nice, too patient and I will put other people's needs before my own. I'm still working on this. I remarried several years later and overall my marriage is good and much more loving. We're having some problems with contact from my husband's old girlfriend and it is triggering bad memories of my first marriage where I was so abused. However we're working on it.

I guess I'm writing all this because bottom line is I think more counseling will help. You have stuff to work on for yourself. You may be able to stay in this marriage - you may not. Time will tell. Right now take care of yourself - keep yourself strong. Develop things you can do with the kids, keep your faith, keep your friends.


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## JustAFamilyMan (Aug 27, 2015)

cvd said:


> I think you should continue with counseling for yourself. See a new counselor. Every counselor puts their own bent onto things and will give you more perspective.


It's an interesting thought, one I've had, but it will definitely result in MC again. MC again will result in the repeat behaviors as last time. In fact, likely worse, as this time there is no ultimatum I'm willing to move forward with. There is no, "fix it or this is over" because of the kids.

Instead, I've poured myself into the kids, personal health and work. Personal trainer, replaced entire closet (a few shed pounds + new public speaking roles required it anyway), more reading again.

Since the first post, I found some new source of energy and am again behaving like I'm in courtship. It's not always easy or natural, but I do it anyway. It's been a little better, but I've seen this before. It always gets better for a little while. Hard to shake the skepticism that this is another temporary high.



cvd said:


> You say your wife does okay with the children right now. Keep a watch on that. Some mental illnesses are progressive, especially if the person is reluctant to take meds or to work on themselves. If your wife starts becoming really withdrawn from the kids or her mood swings go far up and down then you may have to take action and do something to protect your kids mental health. Please realize that if your wife has a serious mental illness then your kids are genetically predisposed to it as well. Their mental health needs to be cared for and prioritized over your desire to stay in your marriage. They may need more protection from your wife's emotional problems. It doesn't sound like you are at this place yet but there are tons of red flags that point to potential issues.


I watch this very carefully. I don't react as viscerally for myself as I did before the kids, but I've had a few moments where my anger spiked when I saw some troubles developing with her reactions and interactions with the kids. I'll never let the situation between her and the kids devolve. The good news is, so far, over a multi-year period, there have been no negative trends. Bumps yes, but nothing that indicates serious problems or degradation on the horizon. It's manageable thus far. 



> I say all of this because my first husband had a personality disorder and it was awful. I stayed in the marriage until the kids were 10 and 13 because I didn't want to disrupt their lives. By the time I finally left, my husband was abusing drugs to self-medicate (he refused to take prescribed meds) and his moods were so up and down that I lived in fear. To the kids he was a little less extreme but they knew he had problems. After I left I found out he had been living a double life with friends and activities I knew nothing about. Personality disorders can cause these kinds of things to happen. When I first met him he was a loving person but his mental illness got worse and worse as time went on.
> 
> The other thing I want to share is that I've learned, of course, that I have problems too. I'm too nice, too patient and I will put other people's needs before my own. I'm still working on this. I remarried several years later and overall my marriage is good and much more loving. We're having some problems with contact from my husband's old girlfriend and it is triggering bad memories of my first marriage where I was so abused. However we're working on it.
> 
> I guess I'm writing all this because bottom line is I think more counseling will help. You have stuff to work on for yourself. You may be able to stay in this marriage - you may not. Time will tell. Right now take care of yourself - keep yourself strong. Develop things you can do with the kids, keep your faith, keep your friends.


Sorry to hear about your past situation. Seriously, it sounds terrible and I'm glad it sounds like you're on the other end of that tunnel. 

I know for now, I'm ok. There are times where the situation puts personal stresses on me that I have to really gird up to bear, especially when the personal part of me that wants to be wanted/loved/appreciated as a husband and lover start begging for validation. So far though, keeping my kids front of mind has prevented it from ever developing into anything more than a subconscious desire for validation.

Appreciate the advice and insight, and for your sharing.


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## JustAFamilyMan (Aug 27, 2015)

I have to be doing something very wrong. Almost on cue, the temporary high dissolved because I didn't clean up our oldest daughters dinner plates etc, by clean up I mean wash and load (I did wipe down table and put them into the sink), because it was over time for her bath and bedtime, which I do every night that I'm home.

Cold, short speech that started and ended with " it would be nice if you cleaned up their dinner once in a while. I do it almost every night"

That's true. She does. I do the oldests bath, pajamas and book reading most every night when that's happening, but I could easily slip in the five minutes the clean up requires. 

After, she stormed off somewhere in the house. I don't even know where. Haven't heard a word since. Have heard her banging things around, loud enough she knows I'll hear it.

Is this all really as simple as my just taking on more of the work at home? Am I a bastard because I think that when combined with the cleaners we have again that my income allows us to have, the rest of the work while challenging would also be an amazing privilege to have as my only responsibility? 

Bomb drop time I guess: Is it likely instead it's sexual frustration? She hasn't been able to have an orgasm since our first child was born, who is a few years old. They were not exactly common before. I'd blame myself exclusively, but in pre-marital relationships this was -never- an issue. Not approaching one even. I can see incompatibility, but it's not a matter of effort. I bring it up frequently, about twice a month, offering to let her show me anything she thinks would help. I've even offered to introduce "toys" if necessary. She recoils at the conversation. Gets angry.

This is a prime reason why I think she's checked out on me in that way. I ask because we had vigorous activity two nights ago where after twenty minutes or so she just said it wasn't going to happen and asked that I climax without her. Two evenings later....


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Start taking time for yourself.

Get a gym membership, etc.

I'd have a serious talk with her tell her this is what you expect. Start making plans to move on now.

Become alpha and stand up for yourself. This is your life too.

If you don't change something you'll just get more of the same.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

JustAFamilyMan said:


> I ask because we had vigorous activity two nights ago where after twenty minutes or so she just said it wasn't going to happen and asked that I climax without her. Two evenings later....


Uh... honestly, it can sometimes take my SO more than 20 minutes to get me worked up, if I happen to be stressed from work or my hamster is going a mile a minute due to something else.

She needs to learn to allow for the time necessary to RELAX and get her mind off of other [email protected] and you need to practice the patience, persistence, and charm necessary to coyly coax her into a more comfortable zone. 90% of it is in her mind.


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## JustAFamilyMan (Aug 27, 2015)

Marc878 said:


> Start taking time for yourself.
> 
> Get a gym membership, etc.
> 
> ...


I see a personal trainer once a week. Home gym equipped at pay gym level. In there four-five nights a week after the kids are asleep, but only for about a half hour to an hour. Otherwise it's all work, kids and movies / board games with my wife. I feel like any more me time would mean not enough us time.

I'm not a "rawr" alpha male, but I'm no more a door mat than is necessary to keep the marriage moving with minimal conflict. I've changed something's from time to time, response adapts back to the norm. Any more push and I'll be seeing my kids two weekends a month. Not willing to risk that.


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## JustAFamilyMan (Aug 27, 2015)

Satya said:


> Uh... honestly, it can sometimes take my SO more than 20 minutes to get me worked up, if I happen to be stressed from work or my hamster is going a mile a minute due to something else.
> 
> She needs to learn to allow for the time necessary to RELAX and get her mind off of other [email protected] and you need to practice the patience, persistence, and charm necessary to coyly coax her into a more comfortable zone. 90% of it is in her mind.


Sorry, my shyness may have made it unclear. Foreplay etc was before and beyond the 20 minutes. She was extremely aroused based on physical evidence and language in use. 20 minutes was the penetration and energetic movement. If more than 20 of that is required, I'll happily admit now I am not up to snuff in the bedroom as somewhere around the 30 minute mark of that is where I would have no gas left in the tank.


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## JustAFamilyMan (Aug 27, 2015)

intheory said:


> JAFM,
> 
> My mother had the kind of personality you describe. Days would go by where you tiptoed around, holding your breath, waiting for her to thaw out or cheer up, or whatever it was that brought her back to normalcy for a while.
> 
> ...


Sorry to hear. I really hope I'm choosing the right balance in this decision. I see the good and bad, while venting here have focused largely on the bad. 

Twice a month for the cleaning service. I make most of my own meals. I'm not great with making the kids meals, but do that probably once a week for dinner and once a week for breakfast. I do no laundry, but most of my clothes are dry cleaned anyway. Short version, is that yeah, I think she has it pretty good. She thinks it's an extremely challenging existence. 

FYI though, she didn't work for six years before we had kids either. So I'm skeptical that she just wants a career again. It's not a money thing either, we do fine. 

Just seems like she's unable to figure out how to be happy.

Re: sex, no idea why she is hesitant to try new things. I've asked, she says, every time, "do we have to talk about this now?"


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## JustAFamilyMan (Aug 27, 2015)

intheory said:


> Sorry, I got the cleaning service frequency wrong.
> 
> But, if she stays home all day - why does she need a cleaning service? I could totally understand it if she just had a baby, or was getting over an illness, but other than that???
> 
> ...


No big deal, just struggling to be accurate. 

She says she needs it so she can fit in a little "her" time. Totally understand and happy to pay for the service to make that possible.


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## afab (Jul 28, 2015)

I havent posted here yet but have read your posts. There is one thing which seems to be missing or perhaps I have missed it.
You dont tell us anything about your wife. How is she socially with other people. Do you have family.
On the whole I am sorry to say it is unlikely to get better especially the way she treats you. It sounds your more like her dog than her husband. I understand very well that youre not in a position to divorce. So your only alternative is to improve matters. This sometimes calls for drastic actions like taking a pill with a bad taste to get better. 
You dont sound like your love for her is very great and I cant blame you. But then you cant expect her love to you to be.
So it seems you want to live a loveless life but a bearable one. You would both need to go counselling for that but since she seems to refuse you have to go about some other way. 
Have you ever written her a letter how you feel. Maybe her reply would be of help to you.


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## JustAFamilyMan (Aug 27, 2015)

afab said:


> I havent posted here yet but have read your posts. There is one thing which seems to be missing or perhaps I have missed it.
> You dont tell us anything about your wife. How is she socially with other people. Do you have family.
> On the whole I am sorry to say it is unlikely to get better especially the way she treats you. It sounds your more like her dog than her husband. I understand very well that youre not in a position to divorce. So your only alternative is to improve matters. This sometimes calls for drastic actions like taking a pill with a bad taste to get better.
> You dont sound like your love for her is very great and I cant blame you. But then you cant expect her love to you to be.
> ...


She used to be very social, but like most married people withdrew somewhat. Nothing alarming. She still takes yearly or twice yearly trips with her friends. She still has girls nights out once in a while. Not very often, maybe 4-5 times a year. She talks to her friends and family over the phone or through face to face visits quite often though. Once a day for some easily. 

I love her family. I'm closer to many of them than I am to the majority of my own family. My family is a mess. Most uncles and aunts have been in affairs. I never met some of my blood family as I didn't know about them until I was in my late teens. My mother is a trainwreck. Long stories there, but her family is my adopted family and they treat me wonderfully.

I think she would go to counseling if I pressed for it. She has before. We've done MC and IC. A flaw on my part I suppose, but I'm sick of going to just repeat the same cycle as the last few times. Gets better for a short period, then reverts. Each time it's reverted it's taken longer to come back to a high. Hard to say though if that's just the kids taking their toll on schedules etc. A lot of the hope I have at the moment is that as the kids get older, things will get a little better. 

I love her, but differently than I did before. I want to love her the way that I used to, but feeling pursued plays a huge role in developing those emotions. More than the physical intimacy, more than anything really, I want to be desired and pursued. I'm sure I'm not alone in that and it's a common need. 

Shy of that, it feels a bit like the marriage is a play performed for the kids. I want them to see the best possible marriage I can show them, and that requires a lot of acting and pretending on my part. Not because I don't want our marriage to be the way I'm acting. I do, deeply. Not because I want her out of my life. I don't. At least, I don't want that more than I want things to be better. I have to pretend because things aren't that way. I have to act because so much damage has accumulated that my natural reactions and emotions are often a mixture of pity, resignation and disappointment.

I used to write letters. The last probably a couple of years ago. For the first several years they were frequent. There were no replies, not in text at least. She would talk out her reply and it would be either a "I'm so terrible, maybe you would be happier moving on" or "You always make it out that I'm the bad guy, what about this and that and this that YOU do?" I much preferred the latter.

The things she brought up in the latter:

- I worked too much. This is 100% true. I took on full financial responsibility early in the marriage and worked insane hours to get us far ahead of where we would have been otherwise. Looking back, that prioritization hurt the marriage and is on my shoulders. We're extremely comfortable as a result, but I'd rather have less money and a happier marriage.
- All the things that happen when you work too much. Didn't help out around the house. Didn't go out to eat enough with her friends. Etc. etc.
- Jealousy early in the marriage. Was an incident where she was working with a few male "models". Not the fashion runway type, really just low budget actors picked for looks to perform a function. One she spent a lot of time with. Local road trips. I took off on a Saturday once to surprise her at a function since otherwise she was going to have to take public transportation. Arrived when I was told it was going to end, but it turns out it had ended an hour before that. Neither she or the male actor were to be found outside. About 30 minutes later she comes out of the building with the actor. The actor had changed clothes (long story, but a certain outfit was required for the event) and was straightening his clothes as they walked down the sidewalk. Lot of surprise when she saw me. I flipped out. Nearly ended the relationship then, both of us nearly ended it. She has never admitted to anything happening. Had a mildly reasonable explanation, enough of one to get me to let it go. Nothing like that has happened for a long time.


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## afab (Jul 28, 2015)

Thank you for your prompt reply.
So I gather some trust is also missing. So what do her family say about it. Cant they talk to her. 
Let me say straight away dont bank on her changing when the kids get older. This is no more than wishful thinking. It rarely happens. I get the picture perfectly. She is looking to blame you for some reason. And when she hasnt got anything and you have so many complaints she answers perfectly then why do you stay.
What you want is again hardly likely to happen. 
Do you tell her often how bad and wicked she is. Maybe not in those words but that is who she understands them.
You do everything for her and get nothing in return. I suppose the letters you wrote sounded something like that.
The problem is bad people dont want to know or hear that.
You say you can afford MC. So unless her family mix in that seems to be the only way forward. But dont expect wonders.
It is hard to find a good one. 
My suggestion to you would first be to get somehow through an MC a living accommodation. Like the MC should be like a judge. Each should say what the other wants in practical terms from the other and agree to abide by the MC decision. This goes against all MC rules since they believe they have to get you both to want the same thing and not make up their minds for you or be a judge. 
Find an MC who is prepared to do that. And that would be a start. Dont go the normal route of the MC which I stated. You will only be wasting your money and get nowhere.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

FamilyMan, I agree with *TechNovelist* that you seem to be describing several red flags for a personality disorder (PD). Specifically, the behaviors you describe -- i.e., event-triggered irrational anger, controlling behavior, verbal abuse, sulking and icy withdrawal, lack of empathy, and always being "The Victim" -- are some of the classic warning signs for BPD (Borderline PD). Importantly, I'm not suggesting your W has full-blown BPD but, rather, that she might exhibit moderate to strong traits of it or another PD.

I caution that BPD is a "spectrum" disorder, which means every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all BPD traits to some degree (albeit at a low level if the person is healthy). At issue, then, is not whether your W exhibits BPD traits. Of course she does. We all do. 

Rather, at issue is whether she exhibits those traits at a strong and persistent level (i.e., is on the upper end of the BPD spectrum). Not having met her, I cannot answer that question. I nonetheless believe you can spot any strong BPD warning signs that are present if you take a little time to learn which behaviors are on the list. They are not difficult to spot because there is nothing subtle about behaviors such as very controlling behavior, always being "The Victim," and rapid event-triggered mood flips.

Significantly, learning to spot these warning signs will NOT enable you to diagnose your W's issues. Only a professional can do that. The main reason for learning these red flags, then -- like learning warning signs for stroke and heart attack -- is to help you decide whether there is sufficient reason to spend money seeking a professional opinion.



> She's been off and on medication. There is no noticeable difference. Perhaps fewer absolute breakdowns.


If her moodiness were caused by bipolar disorder, there is an 80% chance that medication would be a very successful treatment because bipolar is caused by imbalances in body chemistry. The mood changes you are describing, however, are not those that come on slowly over a period of a week or two due to gradual changes in body chemistry. Instead, you seem to be describing mood flips that occur in less than a minute -- or in only ten seconds -- in response to some trivial thing you say or don't do (e.g., not washing the dishes). 

These "event-triggered" mood changes are far more characteristic of a PD like BPD. Because BPDers carry enormous hurt and anger inside from early childhood, you don't have to do a thing to CREATE the anger. Rather, you only have to say or do some minor thing that TRIGGERS a release of anger that is always there. Because BPD is believed to arise from a lack of emotional skills, medication cannot make a dent in it.



> There are times I feel I am walking across thin ice on a warm day just being in her presence.


If your W really does exhibit strong BPD traits, this feeling of "walking across thin ice" or "walking on eggshells" is exactly how you should be feeling much of the time, as *TechNovelist *explained above. This is why the best-selling BPD book (targeted to the abused spouses) is called _Stop Walking on Eggshells._



> MC again will result in the repeat behaviors as last time. In fact, likely worse, as this time there is no ultimatum I'm willing to move forward with.


If your W actually has strong traits of BPD, seeing a MC likely will be a total waste of time because -- until she's spent several years learning how to manage her underlying issues -- learning better communication skills will not improve things. On the contrary, it will likely just make things worse. One reason is that she likely would use those skills to control you more effectively. Another reason is that a BPDer typically views marriage counseling as a stage on which to embarrass and devalue her spouse in front of an approving audience (the MC).



> I've seen this before. It always gets better for a little while. Hard to shake the skepticism that this is another temporary high.


If your W is a BPDer (i.e., has strong traits), you likely will be seeing dramatic improvements in behavior every several weeks, if not more often. Like smokers who are seen throwing away the cigarette packs every six weeks and always "quitting," BPDers will be seen to always be "greatly improving." For nearly all of them, however, what you're seeing is simply a momentary upswing in the roller coaster ride. This is the way emotionally unstable people behave.



> I saw some troubles developing with her reactions and interactions with the kids. I'll never let the situation between her and the kids devolve. The good news is, so far, over a multi-year period, there have been no negative trends.


My experience with high-functioning BPDers is that many of them can be good parents while the children are young. Because young children are so completely dependent on the parents, they usually pose no threat to a BPDer's two great fears: abandonment and engulfment. When the kids reach puberty, however, they start triggering those fears as they start resisting authority and control. Hence, if your W does have strong BPD traits, those problems may not get serious for another 8 years or so.



> Is this all really as simple as my just taking on more of the work at home?


If she has strong BPD traits, it will be IMPOSSIBLE to avoid triggering her hissy fits and temper tantrums. The main problem is that a BPDer's two fears -- abandonment and engulfment -- lie at the opposite ends of the very same spectrum. This means that, as you back away from one fear to avoid triggering it, you necessarily are drawing closer to triggering the other fear. 

Sadly, I spent 15 years trying to find a midpoints solution -- between "too close" and "too far away" -- where I could safely avoid triggering both fears. What I eventually discovered is that this Goldilocks position simply does not exist. It took me that long to realize that, if you want a happy woman, you have to marry a woman who is _already happy _when you meet her.



> Is it likely instead it's sexual frustration? She hasn't been able to have an orgasm since our first child was born.


That's one possibility. Another is a temporary hormone imbalance. I hope the problem is that simple. It would be fairly easy to fix. You seem to have ruled that scenario out, however, in your first post above.  You stated, "I would love to say the issues began after children arrived. If so, I'd believe that once they're a little older everything will be fine. The reality is they started early in the relationship." Moreover, although your children are both under four, you described the lack-of-affection problem as "a 10+ year cycle. I'm exhausted by it."

If your W is a BPDer, this drop in affection and push-away/pull-back behavior is to be expected. With BPDers, it is common for sex to be intense at the beginning and then to go off a cliff right after the wedding, if not sooner. This usually occurs because, during the courtship period, the BPDer's infatuation holds her two fears at bay. Convinced that her new partner is a nearly perfect man posing no threat, the BPDer typically is able to enjoy passionate sex for months. As soon as the infatuation evaporates, however, her fears of abandonment and engulfment return. 

Although a BPDer typically craves intimacy like nearly everyone else, she is too immature to handle it for very long because she quickly starts feeling controlled and suffocated by the spouse's strong personality. A person having a fragile, weak self image can feel like she is losing her self identity entirely during sustained intimacy. This is why BPDers typically behave the very WORST immediately after the very BEST of times. At a subconscious level, they project these painful suffocating feelings onto their partner, believing at a conscious level that the pain is coming from HIM. The result is that BPDers repeatedly escape from intimate moments by creating arguments over absolutely nothing.



> At my fittest, things do not improve. If anything, they get worse.


If she has strong traits of BPD, her greatest fear is abandonment. Hence, improving your appearance with workouts likely would be perceived as a threat to her security. If the abandonment fear becomes sufficiently painful, a BPDer typically will preemptively walk out on her spouse to prevent him from doing it to her.



JustAFamilyMan said:


> She's seen people individually to help. Licensed therapists.


If you decide you are seeing warning signs for a PD such as BPD, it is important that you seek a professional opinion from YOUR OWN psychologist, as *Roselyn *suggested above. That is, see a psych who has never treated or seen your W. That way, the psych is ethically bound to protect only YOUR best interests, not hers. I mention this because, when a client is diagnosed as having a PD like BPD, therapists generally are loath to tell the client or her insurance company -- much less tell her spouse -- the name of the diagnosis. That information is routinely withheld to protect that client, as I explain in my post at Loath to Diagnose.

This means her therapist is NOT YOUR FRIEND. Relying on her psychologist for candid advice during the marriage would be as foolish as relying on her attorney for candid advice during the divorce. I therefore suggest you see a clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you and your two kids are dealing with. 

I also suggest that, while you're looking for a good psych, you take a quick look at my list of 18 BPD Warning Signs to see if most sound very familiar. If so, I would suggest you also read my more detailed description of them at my posts in Maybe's Thread. If that description rings any bells, I would be glad to join *TechNovelist* and other respondents in discussing them with you. Take care, FamilyMan.


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## JustAFamilyMan (Aug 27, 2015)

afab said:


> So what do her family say about it. Cant they talk to her.


Her family is unaware so far as I know. I've considered her family her domain. My father is a fundamentalist and his advice is predictable and usually not that great. No one else in my family would be someone I would trust to speak with.



afab said:


> Do you tell her often how bad and wicked she is. Maybe not in those words but that is who she understands them.


I expressed my feelings for years. It did not result in any long term change, other than she's grown more comfortable and less interested in change.


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## JustAFamilyMan (Aug 27, 2015)

Uptown said:


> ...


I wanted to tell you I really appreciate the time and effort you put into your reply. A lot of very good information and things to ponder. I'm reluctant to see things quite that way, not because it sounds in error, but because I feel like I'm somehow skewing things to appear worse than they may be. It's extremely difficult to be objective in these situations.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

JustAFamilyMan said:


> I feel like I'm somehow skewing things to appear worse than they may be. It's extremely difficult to be objective in these situations.


I agree. Indeed, you almost certainly are "skewing things" in your mind. The human condition is that our perception of other peoples' intentions becomes distorted whenever we experience intense feelings. This is why we all try to keep our mouths shut until we have time to cool down -- and try to give ourselves substantial time before proposing marriage or filing for divorce.

It nonetheless is important to realize you are fully capable of spotting any strong PD traits that may exist despite your inability to diagnose your W. Before you graduated high school, you already could identify the selfish and very grandiose classmates -- without knowing how to diagnose Narcissistic PD. You could identify the class drama queen -- without being able to diagnose Histrionic PD. You could spot the kids having no respect for laws or other peoples' property or feelings -- without diagnosing Antisocial PD. And you could recognize the very shy and over-sensitive classmates -- without diagnosing Avoidant PD. Similarly, you will be able to spot strong BPD traits if they are occurring.

To be clear, I am not trying to persuade you that your W exhibits strong BPD traits. As I noted above, it is impossible for me to know that because I've never even met the lady. I therefore have simply pointed you to descriptions of those warning signs so you can decide, for yourself, whether they have been strong and persistent. 

If you believe the answer is "yes," I would recommend you obtain a candid professional opinion from a psychologist who -- not having seen your W -- is ethically bound to protect only YOUR best interests. Of course, he will be unable to render a diagnosis of your W without seeing her. Yet, based on your recollection of ten years of her behavior, he certainly can render a professional opinion, e.g., "It sounds to me like you've probably been dealing with...." If he were to actually treat your W, he might have to see her in weekly visits for three years before seeing the dysfunctional behaviors you see all week long.


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## truster (Jul 23, 2015)

Uptown said:


> ...


Thanks for all of the BPD information.. I've been suspecting that fits my situation quite well for a few weeks, and your extra info (and a visit to the forum you mentioned) really clinched it. The downside now is that BPD divorces tend to be full of lies to the court, so looking forward to that :\


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## Coachme (Sep 9, 2015)

JustAFamilyMan said:


> No, leaving isn't an option. Less for us and more because of the family. Less time with my kids, and just as important, our kids having time with her and anyone she'd meet but not me, would be something I could not live with. Ever. I also won't entertain actions that would lead to divorce, such as straying or laying down ultimatums. My kids are too important.
> 
> As for the relationship, it didn't start with the kids unfortunately. Now, that isn't to say that it wouldn't have improved without the kids siphoning away so much energy. Maybe it would have. But they do not seem worse or better than before children.
> 
> ...


I think you are and would continue to be a wonderful role model to your children and your wife for a realistic intimate relationship. Your children will learn that there are hard times and good times and its important not to give up (there are obviously some circumstances where this is necessary such as domestic violence - but this hasn't been indicated here) and walk away.

You sound like someone who is a giver, which is great. In situations like these, we can only control what we can do or give, we cant control someone else's response or behaviour. I would be interested to see what you thought your wife's highest need is. At a guess I would say her depression stems from her search for significance and meaning. It seems like she might be a bit lost with regards to her role, her position, her uniqueness in life, outside of being a mother. At a suggestion, you could try to provide her with significance. For instance, each day for two weeks you could take a few moments to tell her something you appreciate about her, tell her about something you admire in her, tell her some of her special skills, remind her of something she has said that has made you laugh or view something differently. Take her aside to tell her something everyday, don't tell her that you will do it for two weeks, just pick a time each day (think about whether she would like to hear it at the same time each day, or would you like to be spontaneous, or you could pick a moment when you are feeling on egg shells). I'm not sure if this would be possible, but it would be more effective too if you were able to say something with your children, one child, a friend or family member present too. Dont say it to expect a response, just say something from your heart, give her a hug or kiss and carry on with your day.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Truster, I'm so sorry to hear you suspect your STBXW to be exhibiting strong BPD warning signs. I wouldn't wish this disorder on my worst enemy. If your suspicions are correct, yes, the divorce likely will get ugly very quickly. Although BPDers generally are NOT bad people, they are emotionally unstable. They thus tend to be very vindictive when splitting a spouse "black" -- especially when they perceive that you are abandoning them (their greatest fear). They will perceive the spouse as Hitler incarnate and treat him accordingly. My BPDer exW, for example, had me arrested on a bogus charge, thrown into jail, and barred (with a R/O) from returning to my own home for 18 months.


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## truster (Jul 23, 2015)

Uptown said:


> Truster, I'm so sorry to hear you suspect your STBXW to be exhibiting strong BPD warning signs. I wouldn't wish this disorder on my worst enemy. If your suspicions are correct, yes, the divorce likely will get ugly very quickly. Although BPDers generally are NOT bad people, they are emotionally unstable. They thus tend to be very vindictive when splitting a spouse "black" -- especially when they perceive that you are abandoning them (their greatest fear). They will perceive the spouse as Hitler incarnate and treat him accordingly. My BPDer exW, for example, had me arrested on a bogus charge, thrown into jail, and barred (with a R/O) from returning to my own home for 18 months.


I wish there was some way to protect oneself from that, but from my reading there isn't much you can do. I told my lawyer to expect this sort of behavior (and in fact she's already started lying to her own lawyer, based on his statements), but there doesn't appear to be any prevention.. just waiting for the attack and trying to keep track of day-to-day goings on to hopefully have evidence that contradicts it.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

What is it that you want, @JustAFamilyMan?

Ways to cope? Ways to make it better? Ways to make yourself stronger? Ways to leave?


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

NoChoice said:


> OP,
> Allow me to offer a reasonably simple thought for your consideration. When life is easy we expect more from it and become disappointed when we do not get it. When life is hard we appreciate even the smallest positive event and learn to treasure those moments.
> 
> When things are easy we lose appreciation for them because they are no longer special. The easier something is to obtain or acquire the less value we place on it. Conversely, when something requires hard work, diligence and dedication it becomes more valuable to us because it represents something not easily replaced.
> ...


This pretty much fits what I have said about having a SAHM as a wife. They become lazy and complain about every little thing. The next thing to go will be her weight. Unfortunately our society makes it impossible for men to address this situation. You'll have to make a decision whether to be without your kids and divorce or be broke and sexless your whole life. What a wonderful choice today's women give their men!


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

truster said:


> There doesn't appear to be any prevention... just waiting for the attack.


Truster, I don't want to continue discussing how to deal with a BPDer in FamilyMan's thread unless he later decides that BPD traits are relevant to his topic. I therefore have responded in your _"Getting Evidence" _thread at *Protecting Yourself when Divorcing a BPDer*. At that post, I recommend a book and a number of good online articles.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Uptown said:


> Truster, I don't want to continue discussing how to deal with a BPDer in FamilyMan's thread unless he later decides that BPD traits are relevant to his topic. I therefore have responded in your _"Getting Evidence" _thread at *Protecting Yourself when Divorcing a BPDer*. At that post, I recommend a book and a number of good online articles.


If you do file you carry a voice activated recorder on you when dealing with her.


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## JustAFamilyMan (Aug 27, 2015)

marduk said:


> What is it that you want, @JustAFamilyMan?
> 
> Ways to cope? Ways to make it better? Ways to make yourself stronger? Ways to leave?


Insight into the first three. There is always the chance you will get new advice you haven't seen before that will open up an avenue to make things better. 

I know that it's very likely that it just will not get better. I can't control what she does. I can influence it, but I can't make her react differently or approach life differently. I also know that given the age of my children, leaving is just not an option right now. My oldest gets upset just when I'm spending a longer day at work (rarely) or have to travel overnight (also rarely). To imagine a life where that is a reality at least half the time? Not happening unless my wife starts to display behavior I believe is damaging enough to offset that constant trauma.

So I genuinely appreciate and recognize the reasons why some would advise to just leave. I do. And I recognize that everyone has to determine for themselves what is best for their children and some have opted to leave when in my circumstances.

Just starting to post here gave me a small punch of new energy to work with. Something I didn't think I had. So even that small benefit makes the exercise worthwhile. I've also added a little new reading material. Not so that I can blindly follow it, but to provide some additional insight into how I can possibly influence her behavior or how she reacts to me or thinks of me.

Maybe I've been too much of a pushover. I readily admit that for the first many years of our marriage I went full blown super powered nice guy. The first moment I remember moving backwards from that is when she suggested that perhaps she would go to a Yoga retreat -IN INDIA- for -SEVERAL MONTHS- of isolation. I struggled with how to react to that. On the one hand, we had no children at the time and I thought... why should she have to give up a personal pursuit for our relationship? Should I hold her back? On the other hand, it felt like a punch in the stomach. How could our being together mean so little that she would voluntarily seek something like this out where she knew we couldn't even talk to one another over the phone. Letters only... It's not like it's a celibate camp either, nor would she have been with only women. 

I realized that I didn't have to hold her back or be ok with it, and let her know if she wanted to do that, I fully supported her decision to do so, but we would divorce first and if we were available and interested date again when she returned. I couldn't be in a marriage where someone would voluntarily sequester themselves for months.

Things have never been amazing after we were married, but they have had some dangerous dips. The possible cheat, our first relocation based on my career, this moment and her first pregnancy were all points where things came dangerously close to being over. 

So, all that said (sorry, just another moment to vent), some of the first three.


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## JustAFamilyMan (Aug 27, 2015)

Coachme said:


> I think you are and would continue to be a wonderful role model to your children and your wife for a realistic intimate relationship. Your children will learn that there are hard times and good times and its important not to give up (there are obviously some circumstances where this is necessary such as domestic violence - but this hasn't been indicated here) and walk away.


I hope so. I hope too though that, should things never get better, once they are adults and on their own they are forgiving should I decide to get a fresh start late in life. That's a long, long way off... but I would rather live single and lonely than married and under siege. At least single and lonely I am all that stands between myself and happiness. Married and under siege... not worth it.



Coachme said:


> At a guess I would say her depression stems from her search for significance and meaning. It seems like she might be a bit lost with regards to her role, her position, her uniqueness in life, outside of being a mother. At a suggestion, you could try to provide her with significance. For instance, each day for two weeks you could take a few moments to tell her something you appreciate about her, tell her about something you admire in her, tell her some of her special skills, remind her of something she has said that has made you laugh or view something differently. Take her aside to tell her something everyday, don't tell her that you will do it for two weeks, just pick a time each day (think about whether she would like to hear it at the same time each day, or would you like to be spontaneous, or you could pick a moment when you are feeling on egg shells). I'm not sure if this would be possible, but it would be more effective too if you were able to say something with your children, one child, a friend or family member present too. Dont say it to expect a response, just say something from your heart, give her a hug or kiss and carry on with your day.


I know this is probably a common defensive response from people that complain here, but if you had a video tape of my life you'd see that I do this. Not in the specific manner, but at least once a day. I play "pick her up" when she has the more severe breakdowns as well, reminding her gently (genuinely gently) that it's not that she has no options, but that she has EVERY option. She can go back to school if she wanted. She can work as a volunteer for a non-profit that means something to her. We don't need her income to put the kids through private school, college, to retire... She gets to shop without worrying about whether or not anything is on sale or whether we'll actually use it. So her options are, outside of those that would result in her abandoning the family, limitless. If she wanted to go back to work or school right now and us hire a Nanny, that's no problem. 

I think you're right that she feels somewhat without a purpose, that being a full mother as she chose to be is not fulfilling enough, but being a mother isn't when this started. It started when my income increased enough that her working was unnecessary. She was a SAHSpouse with cleaners to keep the house clean. Laundry and meals, and only two thirds of the laundry and half the meals given how often we'd eat out or order in and how much went through the cleaners. I don't know how else to help her find herself. I would kill to be in her shoes. Fully funded life where the only "distraction" from self-fulfillment is the time I spend with my children.

I've wondered, many times, whether her unhappiness is a result of honestly not being able to find herself, or whether it was because my personal drive and ambition swallowed hers so quickly, and it turns out that I didn't check off some important physical/sexual desires she had to fall back on when the other caretaker positives turned into negatives as her resentment for my success grew.


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## JustAFamilyMan (Aug 27, 2015)

jb02157 said:


> This pretty much fits what I have said about having a SAHM as a wife. They become lazy and complain about every little thing. The next thing to go will be her weight. Unfortunately our society makes it impossible for men to address this situation. You'll have to make a decision whether to be without your kids and divorce or be broke and sexless your whole life. What a wonderful choice today's women give their men!


I appreciate you taking the time to reply, but I don't see it as a choice women give their men. Alimony and child support laws exist because of the almost infinite history that western cultures (not only western, but definitely western) have of trying to keep women under thumb through such byzantine constructs and refusing women the right to own property. It sucks to have "unfair" outcomes today as a result of the idiocy and rank treatment of women caused by ancestors we can't shake by the collar, but my wife and other wives are not at fault.

She also didn't force me to marry her, nor force me to have children with her when I already knew things were not great between us. My decisions, fear and insecurity and anxiety over a major life "failure", are what led to this state of things. 

I've gained and lost weight, so I'm not going to hold it against her if she does also. If she became obese I'd talk with her about it, both from a physical attraction and health perspective, but she would deserve and get time to deal with it in a healthy manner. 

Short answer is, again, I appreciate the reply, but my decisions are why I'm here. She is responsible for her behavior, certainly, but I had all the control and information necessary before to make this situation never exist.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

JustAFamilyMan said:


> Insight into the first three. There is always the chance you will get new advice you haven't seen before that will open up an avenue to make things better.


Ways to cope:
- disconnect yourself from her emotionally. Firewall your emotional state and hers. She's unstable and damaged somehow; don't let that instability continue to damage you. 
- do things on your own, with buddies or your kids. You need to find your own life, your own center that isn't her.
- keep coming here. We may be an unruly lot, but at least we'll listen.
- eat right, exercise, get enough sleep. 
- therapy

Ways to make it better:
- stop playing into her dynamic. When she flips out about a plate or whatever, just walk away.
- stop doing so much for her. Just stop it, man -- she's not a child.
- check this thread out from my story: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/27426-what-ive-learned-past-year-good-news-story.html . It won't all apply, but I hear some of me in you, and that isn't good man.

Ways to make yourself stronger:
- you will be fine with her or without her. Make this your mantra.
- meditation. Seriously, give it a go for a couple weeks and tell me you don't feel more centred.
- you need to put leaving back on the table. You just do. Having a crazy parent + two unhappy parents fighting is a worse situation than having one crazy unhappy parent and one happy stable parent that are separate. Even if you don't do it, put it back on the table. You are in an abusive situation.


> I know that it's very likely that it just will not get better. I can't control what she does. I can influence it, but I can't make her react differently or approach life differently. I also know that given the age of my children, leaving is just not an option right now. My oldest gets upset just when I'm spending a longer day at work (rarely) or have to travel overnight (also rarely). To imagine a life where that is a reality at least half the time? Not happening unless my wife starts to display behavior I believe is damaging enough to offset that constant trauma.


Your kids are in constant trauma already.


> So I genuinely appreciate and recognize the reasons why some would advise to just leave. I do. And I recognize that everyone has to determine for themselves what is best for their children and some have opted to leave when in my circumstances.


100% agree. And it's fine if you stay. But it's necessary to the process to put it mentally back on the table for you, OK? Give it a 1% possibility, and that's all. 

But in the days and weeks and months ahead, you're going to have to give yourself a bit of a mental escape hatch.


> Just starting to post here gave me a small punch of new energy to work with. Something I didn't think I had. So even that small benefit makes the exercise worthwhile. I've also added a little new reading material. Not so that I can blindly follow it, but to provide some additional insight into how I can possibly influence her behavior or how she reacts to me or thinks of me.


The punch comes from getting it off your chest with people that will listen. Keep it up.


> Maybe I've been too much of a pushover. I readily admit that for the first many years of our marriage I went full blown super powered nice guy. The first moment I remember moving backwards from that is when she suggested that perhaps she would go to a Yoga retreat -IN INDIA- for -SEVERAL MONTHS- of isolation. I struggled with how to react to that. On the one hand, we had no children at the time and I thought... why should she have to give up a personal pursuit for our relationship? Should I hold her back? On the other hand, it felt like a punch in the stomach. How could our being together mean so little that she would voluntarily seek something like this out where she knew we couldn't even talk to one another over the phone. Letters only... It's not like it's a celibate camp either, nor would she have been with only women.


Read my thread man. Does she bring up this trip still?


> I realized that I didn't have to hold her back or be ok with it, and let her know if she wanted to do that, I fully supported her decision to do so, but we would divorce first and if we were available and interested date again when she returned. I couldn't be in a marriage where someone would voluntarily sequester themselves for months.


How did she respond to that?


> Things have never been amazing after we were married, but they have had some dangerous dips. The possible cheat, our first relocation based on my career, this moment and her first pregnancy were all points where things came dangerously close to being over.
> 
> So, all that said (sorry, just another moment to vent), some of the first three.


So, now that we're in this place, what are you willing to start on today?

Just take it one step at a time. Pick one thing and push it forward 1% every day.

What's the first thing from the list I wrote above going to be?


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

JustAFamilyMan said:


> She is responsible for her behavior, certainly, but I had all the control and information necessary before to make this situation never exist.


I beg to differ, sir. I'm sure that if you knew that she was going to act the way she does now, that you wouldn't have decided to marry her...no guy would. I agree the environment being a SAHM put her in definitely contributes to her being a complainer and never being satisfied but I think that most of that is there before she has kids.


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## JustAFamilyMan (Aug 27, 2015)

marduk said:


> Your kids are in constant trauma already.


I hope not. It doesn't feel -that- bad to me, not to the point where they're in constant trauma. No, she's not showing them the kind of love and affection I would have imagined. She is extremely watchful and diligent in their upbringing. She cooks individual meals for each child every meal. She reads books. The usual things, but she really is very good at those things. She's just not "cuddly" with them. She doesn't shower them with praise. There is this weird dynamic where when they do something we should praise them for I kind of have to "prime the pump".

But... constant trauma? I really hope not. If so, I'm not noticing it and will feel extremely guilty.



marduk said:


> 100% agree. And it's fine if you stay. But it's necessary to the process to put it mentally back on the table for you, OK? Give it a 1% possibility, and that's all.


There is a possibility based on how it is affecting the children. If I start to see signs... the % will go up from 1. Or, if she totally withdraws with the belief that I'd never leave no matter what, no effort on her part of any kind.... there's a 1% chance there too.



marduk said:


> Read my thread man. Does she bring up this trip still?


I read through the thread in its entirety. Excellent thread. She does not bring it up any more.



marduk said:


> How did she respond to that?


Badly, but badly way down deep. On the surface she seemed to just let it wash under the bridge. Not like it was "no big deal", but a resigned "if that's the way it is... I won't go. I didn't realize you'd see it this way". But she became extremely despondent/depressed and practically gave up Yoga. It drove such a wedge between us we nearly didn't make it.



marduk said:


> So, now that we're in this place, what are you willing to start on today?
> 
> Just take it one step at a time. Pick one thing and push it forward 1% every day.
> 
> What's the first thing from the list I wrote above going to be?


I'm going to reference more of the other thread. 

1. Let her go. - In most ways, this is already done. I'd like the version of her I dated back, but the version I've been married to... I've let that person go.

2. Set boundaries, and then stick to them. - I'm going to get much better at making this consistent. Right now, how tolerant I am of boundary breaking depends on mood/stress etc. Which of course makes them overall pretty useless.

3. Be ok with losing her. - Ok, I'll accept the 1% or greater chance based on the caveats above. Emotionally this one would hurt, but not in a way that would earth shattering outside of the changes to life with the kids.

4. Do my own thing. - Doing this already. A night a week at a gym with a personal trainer (male, for those with instant suspicion). I travel just enough for work to also make this a reality. Also at home, five additional nights a week I'm down in the home gym for an hour. She's welcome to join, but I don't beg. I just go do my thing.

5. Be a father to our children. - All over this one and have been since their birth. While I'm fun and cuddly daddy, I'm also the one most able to get them to do what they're asked. I have a great, great relationship with my kids and it's likely to just get better as they get old enough to really communicate.

6. Get some buddies. - I'm terrible at this. I'm bad at it because there is just so little time left over after making sure I'm staying healthy, putting the kids to bed, reading, teaching them, and work. I have work buddies, but outside of work, none I can hang out with. My best friend lives several hours away and has his own life taking up tons of his time.

7. Fight different. - This came about naturally. I learned it worked after our last bought of MC. I engage just enough to say what I believe needs to be said, calmly, and words she knows I mean, then I disengage until she's ready to discuss rather than prod for a blow out. I immediately end any conversation where she drags in an unrelated "offense" to derail.

8. Act from a place of strength. - Interesting description you gave afterwards. One I'm going to have to work on.

9. Be decisive. - I'm terrible at this. The most I can point to here are a few dates I've just pushed forward despite her ambivalence. They were enjoyable evenings out but ended flat due to getting home "late". I know it's just a poor excuse. If she were hot and bothered, she'd miss an hour and a half of sleep to get intimate and cleaned up afterward. 

10. Know what I want from life. - Not something I'm good at. I do very well at work. It's come easy for a long time. I have some cornerstones I can build around, but I haven't really sat down to dream for myself outside of the last twelve months really focusing on self-improvement. Will take tomorrow's time I have traveling to start some deeper thinking around this. 

11. Do more macho stuff. - Yikes at this one. I'm absolutely terrible at this type of work. I don't freak out at things like lightbulbs, clogged toilets, broken toys etc., but I'm not someone you're going to see remodeling a kitchen or installing a ceiling fan... even hanging our widescreens is something I'd pay to have done. Partially just afraid that if I goof up some large thing will come crashing down on our kids or I'm going to fry myself in the process. I'll put this one on the backburner for now.

This year I started to take my personal appearance much more seriously. I was never an outright slob, but I didn't really invest any time into thinking about having any personal "style". At least, I didn't think about how to make it happen. It always seemed too expensive to try. Changed that this year. Posture has improved. Really everything. My wife is somewhat freaked out by it. She's said so, outright. But she hasn't made any effort to engage more. Combined with the extra workouts, I've definitely noticed a dramatic increase in external female attention. Then again, I also tell myself frequently that I'm imagining it and they're just being polite. My confidence used to be great. It's in pretty **** shape right now.

I know this is sad, but I've been tempted, seriously, to remove any doubt that this is a ME problem, to set up 100% fake and impossible to do anything with dating profiles JUST to get random, non-biased and totally objective female opinions. I really have NO interest in going outside the marriage, but I would kill for a reality check about whether or not my wife isn't into me because I'm a 5 or because there is just something wrong. I haven't done it yet. But it's incredible how important it is to me that I believe that I -deserve- to be wanted by her. 

I'm grateful for the time you put into the reply, and for your sharing here in general. Your story definitely has a few overlaps with mine, though my wife wasn't the spoiled princess that got everything. She was a late bloomer. She bloomed well, very well, but her teenage years were clearly filled with an awkwardness reminiscent of Tina Fey's flashbacks on 30 Rock.


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## JustAFamilyMan (Aug 27, 2015)

jb02157 said:


> I beg to differ, sir. I'm sure that if you knew that she was going to act the way she does now, that you wouldn't have decided to marry her...no guy would. I agree the environment being a SAHM put her in definitely contributes to her being a complainer and never being satisfied but I think that most of that is there before she has kids.


I meant that I could have left any time I wanted before we had children. Maybe some alimony would have been necessary, but I don't really care about that. I opted to stay and have children which are the true reason why I have to take much more measured and cautious steps that I otherwise would at this point in my life. That's on me. Her change after marriage is totally on her, but I could have left.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Good stuff.

Pick one to work on man. Then focus on that for a week or so. Even just 1% improvement every day.

Don't full on blitz the whole deal and burn out.


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## JustAFamilyMan (Aug 27, 2015)

So... reaction that's been building turned into a new twist.

Her response to my trying to do something on my own to be sure she hadn't missed an important step (and she had, but we didn't know this when she said something) 

"I think sometimes now that you're a little arrogant, like I don't really know you"

Now, to paint the entire picture, a few details:

Especially since really ramping up the fitness level, I've from time to time dealt with mostly coy advances from the opposite sex. I do travel for work a little, almost always day trips rather than overnight stays. On one particular day trip I happened to be dealing with some typical travel issues and had a few older ladies drop the coy/subtle. I assume because they knew I'd see them as harmless and they just wanted to have a little fun. It cracked me up enough that I mentioned it to my wife. I usually don't relay such things to her. She said something to the effect of "nice to get something like that for the first time isn't it?" I admit I got a little childish emotion build up at the (to my ears then) insult and said, "Well of course it's not the first time someone has flirted". 

This turned into a multi-day drama of her needing every instance recounted and her being irritated for the entirety of those days. It also turned into a "I'd like to know about some, but not all of those times" without much guidance other than "you'll know when you should tell me".

Ok, now that you have a little backstory as to WHY I would bring this up without being asked...

Earlier the day she said I was being arrogant we were at breakfast and I was recounting one of the rare overnight trips from which I'd just returned. I hung out with some guys and a "pit mom". She didn't know the term, and I realized it was probably just something my friends and I invented to describe an awesome older lady for whom there is no possibility of romantic outcome who wards off the young girls that would otherwise come flocking. She then asked... so were their girls flocking? I had to admit that yes, before finding that group I had been approached several times. Conventions seem to be meat markets for all involved, not just men, and I stand out a bit in a crowd of mostly tech people. Put me in a room full of models/ personal trainers and no one would blink my direction I'd think, but in that crowd, different story.

So... is her reaction a common response to people detaching a bit and beginning to just focus on themselves? Is what she is saying just code for "where did the lapdog I thought I had go?" I mean, I don't feel arrogant even in the slightest, I'm actually quite riddled with insecurity... but I have been gaining confidence.


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## truster (Jul 23, 2015)

JustAFamilyMan said:


> So... is her reaction a common response to people detaching a bit and beginning to just focus on themselves? Is what she is saying just code for "where did the lapdog I thought I had go?" I mean, I don't feel arrogant even in the slightest, I'm actually quite riddled with insecurity... but I have been gaining confidence.


Any quality has words that describe the exact same quality in both a positive and a negative light, depending on whether the speaker likes or dislikes the person.

Confident/Arrogant
Smart/Know-it-all
Brave/Rash
Careful/Cowardly

So basically, she's noticing the confidence but responds to the idea of you being confident negatively. It's up to you to figure out why your growth is threatening to her. Sometimes it means that a spouse has painted you badly in their mind to justify their own bad behavior.. sometimes it just means that they're more comfortable having control over you, and it's the idea of losing that which is scaring them.


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## JustAFamilyMan (Aug 27, 2015)

truster said:


> Any quality has words that describe the exact same quality in both a positive and a negative light, depending on whether the speaker likes or dislikes the person.
> 
> Confident/Arrogant
> Smart/Know-it-all
> ...


Last night I feel like I confirmed that the following is true:

- She loves me
- She believes I am a good man
- She believes I am objectively attractive
- She is moderately, rarely attracted to me
- She is not sexually turned on by me
- She has something going on with sexual intimacy beyond just me and refuses to do anything about it
- She hates seeing a side of me, a combination of fear and resentment, that appears independent and aware of my value
- The love she has for me is not passionate love but companion love

I went to bed and woke up this morning feeling like I never again want to be together in a sexual way. I find her attractive on the outside, and believe she is a good person, and have love for her, but the events of last night made the thought of sex together uncomfortable and disturbing.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Did someone mention Anon thread "can't you just hold me while I read this book"? it would be good read for you (very long though). His situations is ever worse, but he got a lot of good advise, and brainstorming. It is in SIM section


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## JustAFamilyMan (Aug 27, 2015)

Yeah, I've read through that (and a few dozen others) thread week, but haven't checked in on it in a few days. This isn't our first time through "this cycle", and a lot of the great advice (to me great anyway, my natural instincts lead this way) about initiating and encouraging emotional and non-sexual intimacy are things I've always done, really since the beginning of the marriage.

I really don't know what to say anymore. She says that she doesn't need to climax to enjoy sex... but we're talking years. Not like a single night. I know sometimes our bodies don't respond the way we want them to, but I just can't shake the feeling she's lying to me about being fine with our sex life because the only thing more unappealing to her than how it is would be working through fixing it. 

When I couple our sex life with the way she interacts with me in general, I feel like a paycheck and baby daddy who can provide a near endless stream of ego boost.


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## JustAFamilyMan (Aug 27, 2015)

I'm cracking up a bit now. She went for a nice long weekend in LA with friends. Very little contact. Comes home and has the same bored reaction I've "enjoyed" for so long.

So why cracking up? My mind focuses more and more on my future. I'm not young, and I worry that I will age past much hope of finding someone. I've searched for apartments near our home. Not to call, but because I am curious. I have started to enjoy the attention of other people in a way that's not healthy, though I've done nothing that I could not tell her about with a clear conscience. I fantasize about what a better relationship would be like.

Then I remember my children. And I think... How could I ever do something so selfish? 

I hate that I can't seem to get her to understand how dangerous this is without it turning into a real nightmare for our kids.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

If all of what you've said is true, then she should have no problem accepting that you need more than she is willing or able to provide. And find it reasonable to free you up to do so.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

JustAFamilyMan said:


> So... reaction that's been building turned into a new twist.
> 
> Her response to my trying to do something on my own to be sure she hadn't missed an important step (and she had, but we didn't know this when she said something)
> 
> ...


the whole story above reminds us that too often marriage is a competition and a power struggle. it is often said that a marriage way out of balance is in trouble. meaning for example, i am a laborer and my wife is a neurosurgeon, who's going to get the better of most arguments, most ego strokes, and gain more power in making decisions, et.

now ideally this is not the way it should be. love should be the overriding factor. so what if i dig ditches while my wife operates on some celebrities brain? we love each other; that's all that should matter.

but this is not the way it usually is. your wife sees you as her competitor. if she is miserable, she wants you equally miserable.
if you get an award at work, she wants job talking points too.
she may not consciously think this way; it may be sub-conscious.
but that's how she is acting.

plus, some people just want to control the relationship, flat out.
thus, competition is even more fierce and out of control.

sad but true. i see it every day out there.


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## JustAFamilyMan (Aug 27, 2015)

marduk said:


> If all of what you've said is true, then she should have no problem accepting that you need more than she is willing or able to provide. And find it reasonable to free you up to do so.


All is true. Wasn't fun describing her inability to climax with me, but an advantage to anon forums is the ability to be completely honest if you want and need real help. Of course, I'm describing what I see, how I feel. Impossible to avoid bias.

She will never make it easy. The life is too comfortable. Add the kids to the mix and her family? I think she will try to make it as drawn out and painful as possible. She does love me as well, not the way I would hope or want, but she does. It will be ugly.

But the more I read, the more I realize she will never change for the better for the long term. Im unwilling to be with someone that requires threat of leaving to show her emotions or express her love. The only question is when I leave, not if.


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## JustAFamilyMan (Aug 27, 2015)

I'm laying here angry, distraught, confused. Next to a wife that says she finds me attractive but in action can barely muster 'sweet' affection. I'm in better shape today than when we met. I make a **** load more money. I've proven I am a very, very good father. I dress better. Better groomed. Have given her years of endless options where she could do anything or nothing. What the hell more can I do? 

I fake happiness, or better said I fake acceptance, just to give the kids the happiest home I can. She is starting to make me feel repulsed when I see her. She confuses me. It's like she'll realize I'm distant and then come in for a hug. Catches my guard down and I respond enthusiastically, only to feel the weakest of affection in it from her, as though she is counting the seconds until it's over. Then I feel shattered, reminded of all the rejection. Then I get pissed. I think... I'm not a bad looking guy. It would be so easy to prove I'm worth the attention. Then ten plus years of insecurity wells up and think, "no, your wife is the best person you'd ever find, even with this issue, you're kidding yourself if you think anyone you'd find attractive would ever want to be with you"

Sorry... Just having a really ****ty week. I thought the trip would let her reset. I thought the tickets to a major event here in town, my buying a new tux, her a new dress, new jewelry, reservations at one of the best places to eat... All would move the needle. Bought a few board games to play together this eek to get out of tv rut. No lie, she says two I bought to try together so led require too much attention and after twenty minutes of the other she says "I hate playing games with you. We just shouldn't do it."

I feel so stupid. I warned in MC four years ago that if she couldn't show the love she says she has, there would come a day where I would stop hoping it would get better and I would start pretending until I felt ready to leave. I changed -everything- to address her concerns then. New job, less hours and far more stable. Got her back near her family. Great shape again. Stopped all side projects and made sure she has my time. FOUR CONSISTENT YEARS OF THIS CHANGE. It's starting to feel like she ignored my concerns and hers were just complaints to even the balance sheet in MC. Or, I just screwed up so badly early that she's been done for years but won't admit it.

My kids.... I feel so guilty. So very guilty and stupid.


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## JustAFamilyMan (Aug 27, 2015)

I convinced my wife to take the "love languages" quiz. I took it as well. Our top two (12/10 for hers and 11/10 for mine) are the bottom two for the other (4/0 for her, 1/0 for me). One overlaps at 7 and 5 respectively. I assumed this would be, despite its relative cheesiness, a good conversation starter. I kicked off the conversation by mentioning why even though it seems a little flimsy it can be helpful to shape thought around how relationships go askew. She replied, "I don't think we needed a quiz to tell us any of this. You must be so unhappy." And... end of conversation. Two sentences. 

I've also started a search for a therapist, just for myself. I don't know if I'm unhappy because I'm not good at being happy, if I'm making too much of something that shouldn't be that important when weighed against my family... I don't know if therapy is going to help me understand any of this, to know anything more about myself, as it's difficult to really know how much past therapy helped. But I have to try. 

Just thought I'd come pitch something else over the fence into the void and see if any insight leapt back over.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

JustAFamilyMan said:


> I convinced my wife to take the "love languages" quiz. I took it as well. Our top two (12/10 for hers and 11/10 for mine) are the bottom two for the other (4/0 for her, 1/0 for me). One overlaps at 7 and 5 respectively. I assumed this would be, despite its relative cheesiness, a good conversation starter. I kicked off the conversation. *"I don't think we needed a quiz to tell us any of this. You must be so unhappy."* And... end of conversation. Two sentences.
> 
> I've also started a search for a therapist, just for myself. I don't know if I'm unhappy because I'm not good at being happy, if I'm making too much of something that shouldn't be that important when weighed against my family... I don't know if therapy is going to help me understand any of this, to know anything more about myself, as it's difficult to really know how much past therapy helped. But I have to try.
> 
> Just thought I'd come pitch something else over the fence into the void and see if any insight leapt back over.


Who said the bolded?


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## JustAFamilyMan (Aug 27, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> Who said the bolded?


She did. Updated post to make that a little clearer.


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## truster (Jul 23, 2015)

Wow, so she takes your attempt to open communication about the marriage and turns it into an insult.

To be honest, it sounds like she still has little to no respect for you. You seem to be taking care of yourself, doing interesting things, and being assertive, opening communication.. all good things, but it's not moving the needle. It seems like you're well beyond any attempt to "nice her back". You seem to be starting to see this ("The only question is when I leave, not if"). So now it just seems like you need to swallow the bitter pill of emotionally preparing yourself to serve divorce papers, and not back down for anything but a total change and utter remorse (or not even that, up to you). You have to do that emotional preparation before serving, though, because if you back down at that point she's just going to lose even more respect.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

JustAFamilyMan said:


> I'm not a "rawr" alpha male, but I'm no more a doormat than is necessary to keep the marriage moving *with minimal conflict*.


Huh.

What exactly do you think doormat means?

Read No More Mr Nice Guy
Hold On To Your N.U.T.S.
Boundaries: When to Say Yes, How to Say No, to Take Control of Your Life

And any of a few hundred articles about boundaries on the web:
How to Build Better Boundaries in Your Marriage | World of Psychology
https://coachjackito.com/blog/boundaries-in-marriage-relationships/

You are a Nice Guy. You avoid conflict like the plague. You wouldn't take this crap from your guy friends, would you? Then why accept it from her? To keep her from being angry. But guess what? Weak men MAKE women angry. We WANT strong men. We WANT men to laugh at us when we stomp our feet and say 'how cute,' even if it doesn't seem like it at the time. We WANT to know you won't take our crap and you'll make your own decisions. THAT makes us attracted to you.

She gives you sh*t tests and, bottom line, you're not supposed to accept them.
http://marriedmansexlife.com/2010/05/some-common-fitness-tests-and-what-isnt-a-fitness-test/


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

You made a big mistake when you let her stay at home. Now she will expect everything to be done for her. Soon she'll expect that you do the housework and take care of the kids when you're home. You have to expect her to do her part and get a job, otherwise she will never know any responsibility to you or realize that although a mother, she still is expected to provide her share of income. She will only get worse unless you make her do her part, and I don't mean that taking care of the kids counts for part of that. You need help providing for the family and the days only one income can do that are long gone.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

JustAFamilyMan said:


> . I thought the trip would let her reset. I thought the tickets to a major event here in town, my buying a new tux, her a new dress, new jewelry, reservations at one of the best places to eat... *All would move the needle*.


These things never do.

You can't nice a woman into being attracted to you.

If you want to do them, fine. Don't do them because of how you hope she'll respond.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

JustAFamilyMan said:


> I'm laying here angry, distraught, confused. Next to a wife that says she finds me attractive but in action can barely muster 'sweet' affection. I'm in better shape today than when we met. I make a **** load more money. I've proven I am a very, very good father. I dress better. Better groomed. Have given her years of endless options where she could do anything or nothing. What the hell more can I do?
> 
> I fake happiness, or better said I fake acceptance, just to give the kids the happiest home I can. She is starting to make me feel repulsed when I see her. She confuses me. It's like she'll realize I'm distant and then come in for a hug. Catches my guard down and I respond enthusiastically, only to feel the weakest of affection in it from her, as though she is counting the seconds until it's over. Then I feel shattered, reminded of all the rejection. Then I get pissed. I think... I'm not a bad looking guy. It would be so easy to prove I'm worth the attention. Then ten plus years of insecurity wells up and think, "no, your wife is the best person you'd ever find, even with this issue, you're kidding yourself if you think anyone you'd find attractive would ever want to be with you"
> 
> ...


She doesn't fear losing you. As soon as she sees you even LOOKING at plans to leave, you will instantly become more attractive to her.


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## JustAFamilyMan (Aug 27, 2015)

turnera said:


> Huh.
> 
> What exactly do you think doormat means?


The distinction I'd make feels flimsy when I go to make it. I'd avoided labeling myself a doormat at the present time primarily because I've changed my perspective on what her approval means to me. My conflict avoidance isn't to make her happy, but to give the kids a peaceful environment. Flimsy I know.



turnera said:


> Read No More Mr Nice Guy
> Hold On To Your N.U.T.S.
> Boundaries: When to Say Yes, How to Say No, to Take Control of Your Life


I'll grab the books.



turnera said:


> You are a Nice Guy. You avoid conflict like the plague. You wouldn't take this crap from your guy friends, would you? Then why accept it from her? To keep her from being angry. But guess what? Weak men MAKE women angry. We WANT strong men. We WANT men to laugh at us when we stomp our feet and say 'how cute,' even if it doesn't seem like it at the time. We WANT to know you won't take our crap and you'll make your own decisions. THAT makes us attracted to you.
> 
> She gives you sh*t tests and, bottom line, you're not supposed to accept them.


If this is the case, she's going to be pretty much out of luck and will live in near perpetual anger until the shoe drops. I'm only avoiding her anger right now because I don't want the kids to be witness to fighting or, as happened when things came close to the end before, her so deep in depression she can't care for them properly. I'm past being afraid of how it will impact our relationship. Well past it. 

I definitely was a Nice Guy, started to become less of one, but how I am behaving at the moment is largely just an act to provide some stability while I figure out what the hell I'm doing, and the only reason that takes so much effort is because of the children. 

Appreciate the tough love though.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Buddy400 said:


> These things never do.
> 
> You can't nice a woman into being attracted to you.
> 
> If you want to do them, fine. Don't do them *because of how you hope she'll respond*.


Yep. Straight out of No More Mr Nice Guy. Those are called Covert Contracts.

You really need to read that book. Quick.

You're about to explode and do something unwise because you 'think' you have no other option. But you DO. You could educate yourself on being a Nice Guy, you could stop BEING a Nice Guy, you could start going out with, or making, new guy friends and going out regularly so that she sees you enjoying life WITHOUT her. You could start taking the kids out and leaving her alone every time she acts like a b*tch so that she learns that rude = ignored.

Lots of stuff you could be doing instead of just going all emotional and leaving.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

JustAFamilyMan said:


> The distinction I'd make feels flimsy when I go to make it. I'd avoided labeling myself a doormat at the present time primarily because I've changed my perspective on what her approval means to me. My conflict avoidance isn't to make her happy, but to give the kids a peaceful environment. Flimsy I know.


Nonsense. She raises conflict? You take the kids and go for a walk. Let them LEARN from you that they don't have to accept rage or snide or rude, either. She brings it back up when you guys come back from the walk? Pile the kids in the car and go for a drive or an ice cream; come back a few hours later. If she tries to do it again, pile the kids back in the car and go stay at grandma's house; or even a hotel; have an adventure.


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## JustAFamilyMan (Aug 27, 2015)

truster said:


> Wow, so she takes your attempt to open communication about the marriage and turns it into an insult.


Dismissive more than insulting, though her final comment of "I must be so unhappy" was passive aggressive. I don't even know how to describe, in summary, what I know she's feeling and means when she says crap like that. It's a mixture of apology, curiosity and accusation. 



truster said:


> To be honest, it sounds like she still has little to no respect for you. You seem to be taking care of yourself, doing interesting things, and being assertive, opening communication.. all good things, but it's not moving the needle. It seems like you're well beyond any attempt to "nice her back". You seem to be starting to see this ("The only question is when I leave, not if"). So now it just seems like you need to swallow the bitter pill of emotionally preparing yourself to serve divorce papers, and not back down for anything but a total change and utter remorse (or not even that, up to you). You have to do that emotional preparation before serving, though, because if you back down at that point she's just going to lose even more respect.


Yeah, if I had to describe things she feels about me, respect would not be one of them. She is aware I'm bright, she is aware I'm sweet, she is aware I'm a great father and provider. But respect... it's not there.

My kids are the part of the pill I'd need to learn to swallow. I can get over the anxiety and terror of being single/dating/loneliness again, in my mid to late thirties. I can live with the financial impact. It's the kids... I can't figure out how I could live without being with them nearly every day.


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## JustAFamilyMan (Aug 27, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> These things never do.
> 
> You can't nice a woman into being attracted to you.
> 
> If you want to do them, fine. Don't do them because of how you hope she'll respond.


Yeah, this was a moment of weakness/stupidity on my part. I enjoyed the night out though, so that's a positive, but I need to keep brow beating myself into separating what I do from how I hope she'll respond.


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## JustAFamilyMan (Aug 27, 2015)

jb02157 said:


> You made a big mistake when you let her stay at home. Now she will expect everything to be done for her. Soon she'll expect that you do the housework and take care of the kids when you're home. You have to expect her to do her part and get a job, otherwise she will never know any responsibility to you or realize that although a mother, she still is expected to provide her share of income. She will only get worse unless you make her do her part, and I don't mean that taking care of the kids counts for part of that. You need help providing for the family and the days only one income can do that are long gone.


Financially we're fine, really. Income doubles roughly every few years and appears like that will continue the next several. Candidly, I'm glad she's with the kids at this stage of their lives. It's her choice and always has been, but I think it's great they have her full time right now. When they get in school though, I'd like her to get back into the work force for her own sanity.


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## JustAFamilyMan (Aug 27, 2015)

turnera said:


> Yep. Straight out of No More Mr Nice Guy. Those are called Covert Contracts.
> 
> You really need to read that book. Quick.
> 
> ...


Well, after the kids are asleep I've filled over half my evenings during the week with "me" activities. Personal trainer twice a week, hanging out with co-workers one. Should look into weekend activities in the evening also. Good call.

As for stop being a nice guy... I'll grab the book. It will help for a future relationship and maybe this one, but frankly I don't even know if I want her to come around at this point. Even her SMELL is wrong to me now. I didn't even realize that could happen, but I've noticed it the last couple of months. She smells wrong to me. Offensive almost.

I have this sort of mental awareness that allows me to be aroused if the opportunity presents itself, but sometimes I can't even find any deep romantic connections when I try to surface them. It's as though I know how I want to behave and should behave to be romantic, but it's all just an act. Because I "should".


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## JustAFamilyMan (Aug 27, 2015)

turnera said:


> She doesn't fear losing you. As soon as she sees you even LOOKING at plans to leave, you will instantly become more attractive to her.


Then frankly, she can go **** herself (sorry mods if that's not acceptable here, I'll gladly edit) at that point. I'm going to grow grey and old either alone or with someone that doesn't require constant threat of my leaving to want to be with me.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I think you should keep in mind that there are two aspects to a relationship: the life you have together and the personal relationship between you. She probably likes, or is at least comfortable with, the life you share. Your personal relationship is much more complicated and could be impacted by things that have nothing to do with you. 

My guess is that she isn't happy with herself and that translates to you. And she might not be that into you. .... forgive me if I've missed it but was she ever into you? Why did you marry her?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JustAFamilyMan (Aug 27, 2015)

lifeistooshort said:


> I think you should keep in mind that there are two aspects to a relationship: the life you have together and the personal relationship between you. She probably likes, or is at least comfortable with, the life you share. Your personal relationship is much more complicated and could be impacted by things that have nothing to do with you.
> 
> My guess is that she isn't happy with herself and that translates to you. And she might not be that into you. .... forgive me if I've missed it but was she ever into you? Why did you marry her?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think she was into me. She'd travel downtown to have lunch, and sex with lunch, three to five times a week while we were dating. She was HD for a while. Slowed down a bit with the engagement, took a nose dive after honeymoon. 

My head wasn't fully right when we married, but I found her so different from everyone I'd been around up to then (long story). She was very cute, well educated, close with her family, had a career. She dressed well, great hygiene, financially responsible. She was all over me, mauled once or twice a day. 

I told her over the weekend that I've finally come around fully to believing the following is true: We are each responsible for our own happiness. I am not responsible for hers, and she is not for mine. 

"That's good" was the response. 

Her actions and words are so different, but then again, she scored so low on the actions I would read as love in the whole love language quiz that to her, it may feel like the opposite is true. That she's expressing it every day by doing "things" and I've neglected her because those things mean almost nothing to me.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Don't misunderstand me. I think she's just as unhappy as you are. At some point, you two were crazy about each other; communication tanked, resentments grew on both sides, but since you were no longer communicating, the other didn't know it, so they just made assumptions about why the other was acting differently; you stopped meeting each other's Emotional Needs and you continued to Love Bust each other (http://libertyfwb.org/study/His Needs Her Needs Summarypdf.pdf); and, as your needs go unmet, as the resentments grow, as the communication becomes more barbed and self-defensive, you find yourselves backed into opposing corners. People in pain usually fail to realize that the OTHER person is usually in pain, too. 

But you're the one here. You're the one who came up with the idea of going to a forum to become enlightened as to what's wrong and to ask for advice to fix it. 

Trust me, you are ONE flirt away from having an affair; or just blowing up and moving out. I've seen it hundreds of times before in men with marriages just like yours.

Before you get that far, take a deep breath, make no decisions, and take this time to read read read. Add His Needs Her Needs to your list, so you can see what a healthy marriage looks like (the link above is a summary of its tenets). And try to remember that she's not happy either. I don't get the sense that she's just a spoiled witch, only that she let herself become spoiled and self-absorbed. Am I right? That can change. YOU can change it, by changing the dynamics in your household. By no longer making life easy for her.

For instance, when we say go out and do things with guys, you respond "I do! After I put the kids to bed!"

No, we mean, make time with your friends a priority at a level equal to her and your kids. Not all the time, but at least some of the time. And not just when the kids are in bed. Let her see what raising kids on her own is like; let her APPRECIATE you more. Get some friends together and plan a weekend away; go see a college football game or something. You NEED that strong bonding time with other men to remind you who you are. She needs that time without you to appreciate you. And she needs that time to see that YOU take yourself and your needs seriously.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

JustAFamilyMan said:


> I think she was into me. She'd travel downtown to have lunch, and sex with lunch, three to five times a week while we were dating. She was HD for a while. Slowed down a bit with the engagement, took a nose dive after honeymoon.
> 
> My head wasn't fully right when we married, but I found her so different from everyone I'd been around up to then (long story). She was very cute, well educated, close with her family, had a career. She dressed well, great hygiene, financially responsible. She was all over me, mauled once or twice a day.
> 
> ...




You know what? If sex nosedived right after the honeymoon she wasn't that into you, she put on a show because she knew nobody would marry her if she wasn't putting out. Maybe she thought you'd be a good father and provider, maybe she really wanted to get married. Who knows? It's a crappy thing to do but a lot of women do it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JustAFamilyMan (Aug 27, 2015)

turnera said:


> Don't misunderstand me. I think she's just as unhappy as you are. At some point, you two were crazy about each other; communication tanked, resentments grew on both sides, but since you were no longer communicating, the other didn't know it, so they just made assumptions about why the other was acting differently; you stopped meeting each other's Emotional Needs and you continued to Love Bust each other (http://libertyfwb.org/study/His Needs Her Needs Summarypdf.pdf); and, as your needs go unmet, as the resentments grow, as the communication becomes more barbed and self-defensive, you find yourselves backed into opposing corners. People in pain usually fail to realize that the OTHER person is usually in pain, too.
> 
> But you're the one here. You're the one who came up with the idea of going to a forum to become enlightened as to what's wrong and to ask for advice to fix it.
> 
> ...


I asked her a week ago, in a nice moment where things felt open, how happy she was? If she had to look at her life overall and just give a number that expressed it, 1-10, how happy? 

8. She said 8. I told her I was surprised it was so high. She didn't ask me. Five days later, I asked her if she remembered the question, she did, and told her "Yeah, I hover between 3 and 4, even if some areas of my life are 9 or 10". 

"That's not good. It's good you're going to talk to a therapist". 

She's not a spoiled witch. She doesn't want or ask for expensive things or go shopping for herself. I don't even know if she considers herself spoiled. She seems to feel her life is pretty tough taking care of the kids. 

As for going out with the guys, the trouble is that I'm just not wired to want to spend any more time away from the kids than I have to. It would be harmful -to me- to take that time away. Once they're down though? Usually by 7:30? All bets are off. 

Maybe I've just not learned to prioritize myself highly enough in general. 

I also have no guy friends with whom a weekend like that would even be possible. I have almost no friends actually. I have co-workers that enjoy my company and vice versa, but I have only one person I'm not related to that I ever talk with, and he's neck deep with work and family of his own.

I do an overnight trip for work that gives her an opportunity to see what a day or two without me would be like, but it just seems to build up a ledger in her mind of all the things I need to do to "make up for it" when I get back, else it comes up in conversation later about how rough it was handling them yet again all alone.

As for an affair... I don't think so. I'd never say I know that wouldn't happen, but I've had more than one flirt come my way even in the last few weeks (edited to add: at least I think they may have been flirts, confidence being shaken I second guess that) and didn't pursue any of them. Yet another relationship is just not something I want right now.


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## JustAFamilyMan (Aug 27, 2015)

lifeistooshort said:


> You know what? If sex nosedived right after the honeymoon she wasn't that into you, she put on a show because she knew nobody would marry her if she wasn't putting out. Maybe she thought you'd be a good father and provider, maybe she really wanted to get married. Who knows? It's a crappy thing to do but a lot of women do it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's disheartening. I mean, deeply disturbing to contemplate. And it did nosedive, actually ON the honey moon. Six days away, had sex twice... maybe only once, it's hard to remember but I remember being bothered by it.

Those are the details that really screw with me mentally. I feel like I -have- to know if it's me, if I'm really just not as attractive as I'd hoped/thought... I don't know what I hope to do with that information. As though if I'm not I just give up? If I am I... what?

*sigh*


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

JustAFamilyMan said:


> I asked her if she remembered the question, she did, and told her "Yeah, I hover between 3 and 4, even if some areas of my life are 9 or 10".
> 
> I'm just not wired to want to spend any more time away from the kids than I have to. It would be harmful
> 
> ...


Do you even hear what you're saying? Ok, in a perfect world, with a perfect partner, this could possibly be an ok scenario to spend every waking moment with your family. But you are NOT in a perfect world and you don't have a perfect wife. So it behooves you to stop acting as though it's ok to maintain this unhealthy outlook on life. Print this thread out when you go to IC and hand it to him (or email it ahead of time). Everything about this situation screams nice, gentle, scared, timid, shy, and afraid of your manhood. Probably something to do with your FOO, how you were raised. 

But you don't have to STAY that way. I know you probably think you WANT to stay the way you are, but please keep an open mind, that there are ways to adjust the way you are and be even happier. And it starts with valuing yourself more, getting outside your comfort zone and MAKING male friends, and becoming a whole, real person all on your own.

Did you date a lot before you married her? Have a lot of sex? 



JustAFamilyMan said:


> I do an overnight trip for work that gives her an opportunity to see what a day or two without me would be like, but it just seems to build up a ledger in her mind of all the things I need to do to "make up for it" when I get back, else it comes up in conversation later about how rough it was handling them yet again all alone.


NOT AT ALL the same thing, and you should know that. You 'have' to go on the work trip. You 'choose' to go on a trip with guy friends - and that all in itself makes you look more manly, more attractive, more valuable, more desirable. 

And the Nice Guy in you quakes in your boots in fear at the thought of her hitting you over the head with this. But guess what? That's what we're trying to get you to address. A Nice Guy makes choices out of FEAR; fear of conflict, fear of anger, fear of disgust - all of which you're getting ANYWAY. A _FORMER _Nice Guy learns to be OK with his wife saying 'you selfish POS, you made me watch the kids for two whole days! waa waa waa!' and when she says it, he simply shrugs, kisses her, says 'you're free to go out on your own weekend - oh wait, you just did! Now come on into the bedroom, woman, it's time!'



JustAFamilyMan said:


> As for an affair... I don't think so. I'd never say I know that wouldn't happen, but I've had more than one flirt come my way even in the last few weeks (edited to add: at least I think they may have been flirts, confidence being shaken I second guess that) and didn't pursue any of them. Yet another relationship is just not something I want right now.


You don't know much about affairs. Aside from the people who go out looking for a fling, all the REST of the people who end up in affairs do so for one reason: their marriage is loveless and someone comes along and compliments them. That's it. One little compliment, look over, smile, and you're suddenly CRAVING another 'random' encounter from that person who gave it to you. You are 'thirsty' as they say nowadays, my friend, and you are ripe for the picking.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

JustAFamilyMan said:


> That's disheartening. I mean, deeply disturbing to contemplate. And it did nosedive, actually ON the honey moon. Six days away, had sex twice... maybe only once, it's hard to remember but I remember being bothered by it.
> 
> Those are the details that really screw with me mentally. I feel like I -have- to know if it's me, if I'm really just not as attractive as I'd hoped/thought... I don't know what I hope to do with that information. As though if I'm not I just give up? If I am I... what?
> 
> *sigh*


Unfortunately, this is all too common. Women typically grow up with one or two goals. Marriage/kids and - maybe - a career. But the odds of finding a woman who does not intend to bag a man are probably one in a million. And yes, women DO grow up knowing if you want a man to marry you, give him (or in the old days, promise him) what he wants.

Are all women narcissistic gold diggers? No. But it's more common than you think.

And, fwiw, keep in mind that women who do this (put out and then stop) don't necessarily CHOOSE to do it; they are usually driven to that conclusion that they have to, based on experience. I remember in my early teens vowing I wouldn't have sex til I was married. I lost three straight boyfriends because I wouldn't put out. I learned pretty quickly that sex = not getting dumped. That's not the woman's fault. Of course nowadays, it seems like women are far more willing - and enthusiastic - to have sex, so I don't know how apropos that is any more.

Now we don't know your wife or her past so it's not really fair to say any of this is what she is. They're just possibilities. Only you two would know.


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## truster (Jul 23, 2015)

JustAFamilyMan said:


> My kids are the part of the pill I'd need to learn to swallow. I can get over the anxiety and terror of being single/dating/loneliness again, in my mid to late thirties. I can live with the financial impact. It's the kids... I can't figure out how I could live without being with them nearly every day.


It's obviously not perfect, but you should be able to at the very least have a video conversation with your kids every day. And see them half the days. Usually the kids are never as bad off as the panicked visions the parent sees when contemplating divorce. It's up to you however, whether 50% more time with them offsets the emotional drain of remaining with your wife.

One thing to consider.. quantity vs. quality. Is 100% time with someone when you're preoccupied and depressed better than 50% time when you're energized, excited, and have great plans you've been working all last week on? Some of the most dedicated and fun parents I know are timeshare parents.. they always have something cool in mind.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I've seen many many dads come back here after divorce and say, while not 100% ideal, they found that the time they can now dedicate to their kids is far better than they ever spent with them before, having taken the situation for granted before. Plus, on your weekends away from the kids, you can get everything else done in your life.

Of course, since you seem to HAVE nothing else in your life, lol, not sure if that would apply to you.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

JustAFamilyMan said:


> She replied, "I don't think we needed a quiz to tell us any of this. You must be so unhappy." And... end of conversation. Two sentences.
> 
> .


That's very insensitive. You've mentioned in earlier post that you confirmed that she still loves you. How did you confirm?

Another thought - when she see you in distress and comes over to give a hug, accept it and enjoy it, but do not just up and high like you've just won the prize. And do not try to turn it into sex either. Both cases will push her away.


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## JustAFamilyMan (Aug 27, 2015)

Don't know how to quote on mobile.

Re dating and sex:

No, I didn't date much before. Some sex, but not a lot. I had very "old fashioned" views about it that it took me a bit to get over. I would give my identity completely away if I explained more in detail, and I'd rather protect some of the anonymity I have, but let's just say religion in the extreme played a huge role.

I am textbook "married first real relationship"


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Hmmm. That's what I expected. More like textbook 'married the first girl to douse you in sex.'

That's not good.

What about her? And what was her family like?


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## JustAFamilyMan (Aug 27, 2015)

Second girl to douse. First also tried to surprise me with a 3 way with her friend. I didn't agree (friend was very attractive, but I just don't see 3 ways as worth the trouble they are bound to cause) Friend got pissed, gf got pissed, I ended relationship because I was sick of the games. 

As for my wife, hard to say. She was in a sorority, great social circle of what I believe to be solid, upstanding girls. Most are professionals of some sort, exactly what I thought she would be. She had multiple boyfriends, normal college girl sex life so far as I know.

Her parents were drinkers, and married for three hundred years. Her father is so brow beaten he just hides in a room all day. Her mom tells her dad she hates him about once a week.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Ah. Well, at least she gets it honestly.

I always say, you wanna know what your marriage will be like? Look at your fiance's parents.

Now you know what to look forward to if you don't step outside your comfort zone and start making changes.


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## Grey (Jan 13, 2015)

I feel like you're living my life. I'm you and your wife is my husband. He works and provides us with a nice life but it's not enough. There's nothing there. No matter how much I try to talk to him and tell him how I feel it goes in one ear and out the other. His way of making things better is with sex. That's not something I want from him right now. Maybe one day things will better. Guess I'll just have to wait and see.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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