# Is a full on emotional affair a real affair ? Thoughts needed



## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

Was l having a real affair to her ?

We separated 4 mths ago . We'd had a very stressful 5 yrs and it took it 's toll on our moods and the way were with each other.
Now , l've realized l did handle the stress so wrong, l also blocked my wifes love and efforts to hold us together . 
That eventually had her backing away and acting weird with me too and that , made me go even more distant from her.

In our last 12 mths together we'd bought our new place 6 mths earlier , it needed heaps of work , more money stress and too many other things going on to mention. 
Around this time one of our friends was spending more and more time here and usually in week long stints staying over.
l got along with her much better than my wife did , my wife didn't even like her that much.
My wife had also changed jobs , lots more work , whole new crowd, on top of all our worries so she also got very run down , tired all the time and started going to bed at 7 or 8 every night.
she told me right through that's all it was but i was welcome to hang out with the friends. 
Well , we usually stayed up till all hours , even all night , we had heaps of fun , lots of laughing and , yep she was damn hot too but - nothing ever touched. There were usually other people around too , lots of noise , music , laughing and yelling through the house.
l often went in to see my wife , make sure she was cool and we weren't keeping her awake- our room was away a bit and separate so pretty sound proof.

This was going on every few weeks over our last 12 mths and i must admit l could never wait for K to get back and see her again. l thought about her all the time and even thought of leaving to be with her - but l didn't !

Well, it turns out my wife was also in deep depression through all that time on top of everything else , about us. seeing shrinks and Counselors and in our last 3 weeks had met some shoulder to cry on too. 
She told me she wanted to separate. She told me about us , the way l'd been with her for a couple of yrs now and that l'd lost it with her completely, the pain and hurt she'd been living.
She'd thought l wanted to move out for 12 mths. Told me about mr shoulder , the depression , shrinks. Then she told me she'd like to start spending time with mr shoulder . She said she didn't even think l'd care anyway and that l was so busy with K all the time and how she'd cry in bed listening to us laughing and partying for 12 mths.
She said K turns me on but she doesn't any more , and that l don't even wanna talk to her anymore let alone have fun with her
She said she'd been crying in bed for 12 mths over what we might be getting up to , in her house .
She'd even heard me dreaming about her . And admittedly l did deny any turn on and really nothing physical had happened anyway but deep down she was right about her , l mean if l was single !

But , despite everything , l had never stopped loving my wife also and if l'd had known what she was going through l would have done everything l could. It hurt soooo much to find out she'd been in that pain and so long, and that l'd been so insensitive and cold to us . 
but it was too late , she'd cut off and checked out.

But , the one thing that kept coming back , above anything else through all our talks, AND fights, before she moved out, was K. 
It kept coming back and up , l blew it off each time because yeah in a way she was right but l never touched.

So was that an emotional affair , a real affair- which l've never heard of before here 4mths ago . And the realizing that maybe she had something, maybe to the other person that is an affair or as good as cheating on them.
Can an emotional affair be so serious that it justifies separation or the right for them to start seeing someone else ?
The right for them to cut off and appear to be feeling no guilt about seeing someone else ?
Is it justifiably that bad ?

Please don't hesitate to delve or speak on this. To be honest, l know l'd been selfish and dumb but with realizations from around here, l need too dig at this to just maybe , find some peace and closure , figure out my anger .


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

An EA is just as painful for the BS as is a PA. For some BS, they have found a EA to be even more painful.

Under the guise of entertaining in your home, staying up all night with the OW you were dating this OW in front of your BW in BW home for a full year.

And you need to be told what you did and why it was wrong.

Are you that dumb?


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

Yes an EA is often, more often more painful than a PA. You are giving your deepest part to another woman, not just your flesh. That is more of a betrayal to some people. It is also psychologically more damaging.

You did betray your wife. Though your wife was in a deep depression she was needing you. You were not there for her. You were out having fun with K while she was burying her pain. 

Now that your wife has separated you have a couple of choices, fight for your wife if you truly loved her or walk away. If you did truly love your wife, go fight for her. You have to understand what she needs and women's needs are different from men's so you have to begin to understand her. You married her for better or worse so go after her and let her know you love her and fight for her.


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

theroad said:


> An EA is just as painful for the BS as is a PA. For some BS, they have found a EA to be even more painful.
> 
> Under the guise of entertaining in your home, staying up all night with the OW you were dating this OW in front of your BW in BW home for a full year.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the honesty and making it through my post and yep , it seems l have been that dumb , with some selfishness and blind eye thrown in if l'm being really honest


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

MovingAhead said:


> Yes an EA is often, more often more painful than a PA. You are giving your deepest part to another woman, not just your flesh. That is more of a betrayal to some people. It is also psychologically more damaging.
> 
> You did betray your wife. Though your wife was in a deep depression she was needing you. You were not there for her. You were out having fun with K while she was burying her pain.
> 
> Now that your wife has separated you have a couple of choices, fight for your wife if you truly loved her or walk away. If you did truly love your wife, go fight for her. You have to understand what she needs and women's needs are different from men's so you have to begin to understand her. You married her for better or worse so go after her and let her know you love her and fight for her.



Thanks Moving and my God. lt wasn't until later , finding this place and reading , talking , realizations .
l mean it broke my heart when she told me what she'd been going through but yep , on the K stuff in my mind well , l didn't touch so it wasn't as bad as she made out but , well how stupid and wrong could l have been . 

l wish i could fight for her moving , l tried for two mths , everything. She wasn't interested and just kept saying she was done, along with a hell of a lot of more colorful stuff.

She still seems as done and checked out as ever and seeing that other guy now .


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

She is seeing the guy now too. That's actually what got me digging even more than l already have over this 4 mths and why l'm digging here now.

Because l saw them today , in town, having coffee, main street, talking to locals passing by.
that's a tiny town , gossip , my daughter goes to school there , knows everyone.
Well l saw them also 6 or 7 wks ago for the first time .

The anger and pain l felt , seeing her doing this in such a small town , in front of it all so soon after our separation. 
My daughters school and friends , me , l mean how the fk does that look so soon ?
How the hell could she have such no feelings for our feelings and so soon like that ?

That's why l'm here right now and trying to learn more and understand emotional affairs and their effects. 

Because it's so not her to act like this but maybe , with what l've done and seeing how bad you've all said that can be , maybe she feels quite justified .

Maybe she's got every right to feel that way ?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Which hurts most? A drunken ONS or an EA that is deliberately entered into, which last for months or years?

I think the latter.


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

So do you think that's what she's thinking then Matt and so then to hell with my feelings ?
Or maybe l don't have the right because of my stuff ?


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## Hopefull363 (Feb 13, 2012)

She has a right to her feelings and you to yours. She is done. She isn't thinking about your feelings like you weren't thinking about hers. For a long period of time you carried out an affair in her home with her there. I can't imagine the anguish she went through. Do you want your wife back or do you just want to move on? Be clear about what you want so the advice can be given accordingly.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

As far as what constitutes an emotional affair, everyone has their own opinions about where the line is that, when you cross it, you're having one. I don't think there is a dictionary definition anywhere.

I think it would be best for you to not worry so much about what term to use for your behavior and just focus on the behavior itself.

Your wife was going to bed at 7 or 8 every night. Meanwhile, you were partying, usually very late, sometimes all night, in the same house.

You don't say it, but I get the impression that you didn't exchange I love you's or any type of sex talk with other woman. I get the impression that your wife heard the tone of your voice, how excited you were, how enthusiastic you were, when you were with the other woman. And she contrasted that enthusiasm and excitement that you ALWAYS had plenty of for the other woman, with how you at the same time seemed to have NO CONCERN for her. Whether or not you did, or did not, ALWAYS or NEVER do these things, is not that important - your wife's perception is what is important. And I think your wife perceives that you had deep feelings for the other woman and no feelings for her.

It went on for a year - that's a really, really long time to be in bed at 7 or 8 each night listening to your husband whooping it up with another female. At this point, your wife feels that she heard what she heard, even if you tell her that you and other woman never touched, she knows the excitement in your voice and the emotion and enthusiasm you showed for the other woman. Your wife knows what she knows and you are not going to dissuade her that she is wrong.

I'm sorry I don't have any advice for you. Has your wife moved out? Where do you stand with your wife? Heading for divorce? Drifting along in limbo?


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## LdyVenus (Dec 1, 2012)

She doesn't feel special to you anymore. You put more effort into K, than you did the woman you took a vow to love,honor, and cherish. She probably thought you guys were a team, you could work it out, you would never do that etc... Instead you withdrew, that's extremely painful, especially when facing all of the stress. It was that bad, it is justifiable, and this new guy is making her feel special.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

Hopefull363 said:


> She has a right to her feelings and you to yours. She is done. She isn't thinking about your feelings like you weren't thinking about hers. For a long period of time you carried out an affair in her home with her there. I can't imagine the anguish she went through. Do you want your wife back or do you just want to move on? Be clear about what you want so the advice can be given accordingly.



Thanks Hopefull and neither could l until seeing how bad all that really was.

Well , first l wanted to know how bad an EA is and then , as compared to what she's doing now .
Because l feel so much anger now after seeing them today like that and that's going to seriously effect the way l am with her from here on. Yet we have a lot of money stuff to clear up for 12 mths and we have my daughter forever.

So firstly - do l even have the right to feel that anger after what l did to her ?

2ndly , yes l would want my wife back definitely under the right circumstances. We were repairable and before all this we were a really special couple but she's lost so l have no choice , l do have to move on.

And so again it comes back to do l have the right to feel that anger, it what she's doing justified ? 
Because that anger effects me and moving on as l am trying not to but l'm carrying it around . 
l also have to use that town so today is going to happen again and again.


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

Will_Kane said:


> As far as what constitutes an emotional affair, everyone has their own opinions about where the line is that, when you cross it, you're having one. I don't think there is a dictionary definition anywhere.
> 
> I think it would be best for you to not worry so much about what term to use for your behavior and just focus on the behavior itself.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your time Will.
She moved out 4mths ago. L've been rebuilding , getting my head around everything , seeing my daughter when l can, adjusting , clearing up all our crap, working and going on with finishing our house , deciding my future - all the usual it seems broken marriage stuff.

Hmmm , more bad news l'm afraid. Things did get often accidentally a little heated with K. Definite mutual attraction there that was sometimes hard to push aside.
Apparently it was getting pretty hot in my sleep too but l thought but hey we could dream anything we can't be responsible for that surely.


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## Calibre12 (Nov 27, 2012)

Mr. Man, sorry but you failed the ultimate test of loyalty. When your wife was sending up smoke signals that she needed you you preferred to take care of you first. You bypassed her needs for K. Didn't K have something better to do with someone else? You have now experienced another woman the way you experienced your wife which nullifies your emotional relationship with her. The only reason you seem to be concerned now is because someone else got her smoke signals, which renders you a little too late...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

LdyVenus said:


> She doesn't feel special to you anymore. You put more effort into K, than you did the woman you took a vow to love,honor, and cherish. She probably thought you guys were a team, you could work it out, you would never do that etc... Instead you withdrew, that's extremely painful, especially when facing all of the stress. It was that bad, it is justifiable, and this new guy is making her feel special.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hmm , l did offer to never see K again and when l'd realized what a mess l'd made l actually couldn't wait to show her love and start being with her again , sex to but especially our talking in bed and early nights we'd always done before all this.

She said she just can't there was too much hurt and she was done.


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## Malcolm38 (Dec 25, 2012)

With all due respect, you were dating another woman in front of her. Ouch.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

You have a right to your anger, of course. Anger is a natural feeling that comes when it comes.

You don't have any moral high ground, though.

The thing is, when people are in EA's and deny the affair because it didn't go physical, they miss the most important element that distinguishes a serious commitment, the emotional connection and intimacy. It's often only when their spouses ask them how they would feel if the tables were turned that they start to understand the reality.

So now you've had the tables turned. You see your W with another man, happy and not putting you front and center. You haven't seen them having sex - you may have no proof that they are - but you see the connection and you are very angry.

So now you know what it feels like. If you love your W, you messed up in a huge way. A full year with her in bed like that. Didn't it occur to you that something was seriously wrong? To me it sounds like you were happy to tuck her in so you could play with K.

Sorry, you blew it in a very big way & really, really hurt your W.

So, you can be angry, but it can't be self-righteous anger.


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

RightfulRiskTaker said:


> Mr. Man, sorry but you failed the ultimate test of loyalty. When your wife was sending up smoke signals that she needed you you preferred to take care of you first. You bypassed her needs for K. Didn't K have something better to do with someone else? You have now experienced another woman the way you experienced your wife which nullifies your emotional relationship with her. The only reason you seem to be concerned now is because someone else got her smoke signals, which renders you a little too late...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well no not only , the anger l feel , do l have that right to feel it though after the mess l made. 
lt will effect everything and l don't know how l should be treating her after today.

yeah l missed them alright and selfishly . but now not that l'm defending what l did but she had been also missing my smoke for 2 or 3 yrs .
l'd been to hell and won the battle for her . Our finances were coming good , we got a beautiful property for my daughters home , l started a business and coming good . lt was a fight and a 1/2 and there were so many times along that l needed things from her that she just didn't get either you see.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

My STBXW had an EA which morphed into a PA. Long story, won't re-hash it. Bottom line is that I found out about the EA and had no clue about the PA. It didn't really matter. The EA was devastating to our marriage because of the betrayal of trust involved and the lies. My STBXW was sharing thoughts and secrets with the POSOM which she previously shared exclusively with me. She was complaining about her marriage and me to the POSOM. She was expending ALL of her emotional energy and a LOT of her affection on her EA. it was during this time when my gut told me something was wrong, but my sense of denial blinded me to the truth.

The betrayal of trust, the stealing of emotions, the feeling of being blindsided, stabbed in the back, the anger over the lies were greater (for me) when I discovered the EA than when my STBXW finally confessed to the PA.

After an EA is established, moving it to a PA is just a tiny step. The betrayal has already been done.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

I guess the one defining difference between an EA and a PA that we can all agree on is that the EA lacks physical sex, or for some more specifically genital penetration.

These are the problems that I see in a relationship that I call an EA
1. misplaced loyalties. You trust your EA more than your spouse whether it relates to trustworthiness or ability to do something.
2. Your EA affects your mood more and it shows. You're up when she's up; you're down she's down.
3. You're more generous to your EA than with your spouse. that can be with money, buying her gifts; taking her to expensive places, even if your wife joins you, if your EA weren't with the two of you, might you have chosen a cheaper restaurant. 
You're more inclined to do more favors for your EA either around her house, for example, or professional favors, networking and what not.
4. You use the EA as a sounding board for important decisions within your marriage. For example, every time you and your spouse, argue, you may look to your EA for her opinion, whether it's forgivable and so on.....


Maybe I can think of some other things.

the other problem with an EA is that it can be a prelude to a PA. Women would prefer it that way so that an emotional connect would already be established.
Men might prefer it that way so that they use the emotional connection as an excuse for going on autopilot and having sex.

But it is interesting, if you have not been burned by an EA,you may not give it much thought. I was looking at another message board where some women were defending going out with their ex for dinner despite having a current boyfriend. their attitude was, we're not having sex, so what's the problem?


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> You have a right to your anger, of course. Anger is a natural feeling that comes when it comes.
> 
> You don't have any moral high ground, though.
> 
> ...


Hmm, l'm saying that a lot today aren't l .
Well yeah it did but she'd changed jobs and they were working her a22 off . And early nights and low energy weren't uncommon for her , they actually got on your nerves a bit .

And l'd asked her you see too , dozens of times , she always said no l'm fine just tired still.. But found out when it was too late that she couldn't tell me the truth.

But you and the others are still right , it comes down to smoke signals and K. l failed both big time .


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> I guess the one defining difference between an EA and a PA that we can all agree on is that the EA lacks physical sex, or for some more specifically genital penetration.
> 
> These are the problems that I see in a relationship that I call an EA
> 1. misplaced loyalties. You trust your EA more than your spouse whether it relates to trustworthiness or ability to do something.
> ...



Yep your spot on. lt's always a different story when it's her , I've been there .
No sex , his just a workmate, his my brother in law for God sake, oh it's nothing we're just friends - as she lights up like a torch when he walks in !

So sorta knew where we were going , but it's true to that l'd always gotten that crap above when l was on the receiving end.


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

Cedarman said:


> My STBXW had an EA which morphed into a PA. Long story, won't re-hash it. Bottom line is that I found out about the EA and had no clue about the PA. It didn't really matter. The EA was devastating to our marriage because of the betrayal of trust involved and the lies. My STBXW was sharing thoughts and secrets with the POSOM which she previously shared exclusively with me. She was complaining about her marriage and me to the POSOM. She was expending ALL of her emotional energy and a LOT of her affection on her EA. it was during this time when my gut told me something was wrong, but my sense of denial blinded me to the truth.
> 
> The betrayal of trust, the stealing of emotions, the feeling of being blindsided, stabbed in the back, the anger over the lies were greater (for me) when I discovered the EA than when my STBXW finally confessed to the PA.
> 
> After an EA is established, moving it to a PA is just a tiny step. The betrayal has already been done.


Yeah right l get ya. Sorry about your troubles to by the way and thanks for explaining that.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

whitehawk said:


> So do you think that's what she's thinking then Matt and so then to hell with my feelings ?
> Or maybe l don't have the right because of my stuff ?


You both have rights.And responsibilities; roo.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## catfan (Jan 12, 2013)

I agree with Will Kane: it must have been so lonely and just a torture for your wife during that time. Being depressed, feeling lonely and hearing you and that woman having fun all the time, without her being a part of it. Depression can make one very tired, so she needed her rest. I don't get the feeling you were there for her at all... and to state the other woman is hot, well, she must have known your feelings by your behaviour. She is indeed done and I think you need to talk to her in a calm way. Even just to figure out if you want anything from eachother really still....


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Did you secretly look forward to your W heading to bed early so that you could spend the evening with K?


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

One more thing, I was thinking you can be more generous in spirit with your EA than with your spouse. So your EA being 30 minutes later is not as much of problem as your wife being late under similar circumstances.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

In an EA, the WS can see nothing wrong with the AP and everything wrong with the BS. That is how the "fog" works.

In my case, the POSOM was married with a 1 year old and a 3 year old when the EA started. He also had a girlfriend. He left his wife and kids, divorced asap, THEN he had a PA with my wife while still maintaining his girlfriend. THEN, he met another woman, became engaged (while continuing the PA) - eventually marrying this woman.

My wife is very attractive, extremely successful, and intelligent. Yet, she thought this guy was everything she was missing in her marriage. They NEVER argued. They didn't have any stress about kids. They could complain to each other about their marriages and find a sympathetic ear. All they did was have fun!!! The fact that he was a sleaze ball, screwing around and cheating on everybody did not seem to matter.

THAT is the power and the danger of the "fog". OP: It sounds like you're still a little bit in the fog - but starting to come out. Once you're out - you have to make some clearheaded decisions. No matter what you choose, you need to be 100% honest with all players involved. That is for their sake - but more importantly it is for YOUR sake. 

You don't want to go through life as a lying cheat. Find your character.


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

catfan said:


> I agree with Will Kane: it must have been so lonely and just a torture for your wife during that time. Being depressed, feeling lonely and hearing you and that woman having fun all the time, without her being a part of it. Depression can make one very tired, so she needed her rest. I don't get the feeling you were there for her at all... and to state the other woman is hot, well, she must have known your feelings by your behaviour. She is indeed done and I think you need to talk to her in a calm way. Even just to figure out if you want anything from eachother really still....


Hmm, here l go again with that but thanks Cat.

And just to put the icing on - you know the description you used in the top 1/2 , they were her very words ! Among the more colorful stuff anyway.





http://talkaboutmarriage.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> Did you secretly look forward to your W heading to bed early so that you could spend the evening with K?


Oh Jesus , l'm done for .
Yep l'm afraid after awhile l did !


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

Cedarman said:


> In an EA, the WS can see nothing wrong with the AP and everything wrong with the BS. That is how the "fog" works.
> 
> In my case, the POSOM was married with a 1 year old and a 3 year old when the EA started. He also had a girlfriend. He left his wife and kids, divorced asap, THEN he had a PA with my wife while still maintaining his girlfriend. THEN, he met another woman, became engaged (while continuing the PA) - eventually marrying this woman.
> 
> ...



Yea . Personally I've never thought intelligence has much to do with passion or love especially in early fog days . You like who you like , it just happens.

And yea again. See this is why l'm here today and we "are" working this stuff out finally . I don't mind the kicks , l need to get clear on it all once and for all after today and the last 4 mths and you guys are doing it. 
l just don't know how to thank you after the hell we've been through.

And again , you mention fog , l'd never heard of it before coming here and then to me it was quite obvious that my wife was the one in fog.
But now l see , l was in the fog long long before her , with K.
The chemical wacko syndrome , the lot


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

whitehawk said:


> Can an emotional affair be so serious that it justifies separation or the right for them to start seeing someone else ? The right for them to cut off and appear to be feeling no guilt about seeing someone else ?
> Is it justifiably that bad ?


People divorce everyday due EAs. But yours was very cruel, flaunting OW that way is not only a complete dealbreaker for many but the therapy, her depression, the isolation, the need to scape and the complete detachment is totally granted. You were emotionaly and mentally abusive to your wife.
Of course you lost her before but as OM entered the chances to go back decreases exponentially.

*Try wear the other shoe. Re write your posts just change the characters. *If you are honest enough with yourself you will see the cruelty and the reasonable outcome. What the hell did you expect? Can you imagine having the need to go to therapy?
You broke your wife and destroyed your marriage. She's now trying to become another man's GF. All happened right under your nose as you were to busy with OW. Four month after the sepatarion you realizes it and now it's too late. Why? Only becasue another man is in the picture.
Why are you so angry? You are still showing no humility, imagining conditions to recover the marriage. You are in complete denial, friend. Change the attitude.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

So, WH, what you want from your thread is some clarity?

You are certain that your M is over and you want to be clear on why and how and who has what responsibility?

Someone asked if your W talked to you about your 'friend', whether your W expressed concern, during this year. Did she? If she did, did you deny or minimize or gaslight?

And what happened to K? Why was this woman OK with partying with another woman's H all this time, knowing the W was in her bedroom? This is not a nice person in this respect.

If you want clarity, it seems to me that your W and you had very typical marital problems until you started having an affair right in front of her. She was depressed and finally found the strength to tell you where to get off. From what you've written, it seems that simple to me.


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

Zanne said:


> Did your wife talk to you during this time and tell you to stop hanging out with K? And did either one of you talk about the unhappiness in your marriage until it was apparently over?
> 
> I agree with MattMatt...you both have rights and responsibilities - and you did while you were married.


She tried in her own proud way . Which means she blew up at me about it one night . She also accused me of stealing her undies , in front of her. l didn't have them they found them later.

Yea we use to talk triple most couples but that had slipped badly for sure.
But I was still often talking to her and checking with her at night , asking stuff and swopping our days you know. Usually in bed when kids were out of the way.

But 99% of the time she always said things were cool and we were both too stress to give a damn right now anyway.

She admitted she also felt very responsible for us because l did often ask her or come in to talk but she wasn't honest with me. But then she was too hurt and depressed to go there to, l'm too close .


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

whitehawk said:


> Thanks for the honesty and making it through my post and yep , it seems l have been that dumb , with some selfishness and blind eye thrown in if l'm being really honest


If you had not been spending so much time being entertained by K and partying with friends you might have noticed that your wife was depressed and having problems. 

How is it that K, whom your wife did not even like that much, came to stay at your house for that long a time?

Where is K now? Why did she eventually move out of your house?

Rule of thumb, never allow anyone who is within the age span your spouse or you would be interested in to move into your house when you are married. This often leads to problems in the marriage. Having long term house guests or roommates often leads to affairs.

You wife apparently tired to tell you that she was bothered by your EA with K but you blew her off. So it sounds like she just cried when by herself and did not tell you what was going on with her.

When your wife is so tired that she’s going to bed at 7/8 pm, it’s a signal that you, her husband, needed to spend some extra time taking care of her and helping her get back on her feet. I’m not saying this to make you feel bad. It’s just the truth that so many people ignore.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

whitehawk said:


> She said she just can't there was too much hurt and she was done.


Look at how you feel about your wife and her current affair. This pain that you feel, that is the same level of pain that your wife felt for that year that you put you spent mostly with K. And you carried out your EA right in front of your wife. Can you imagine how your would feel if your wife was still living in your house and the OM was a guest in your house... and all the while you were aware of their affair?

Imagine that. That's how your wife felt for that year.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

whitehawk said:


> Apparently it was getting pretty hot in my sleep too but l thought but hey we could dream anything we can't be responsible for that surely.


The first time you had a dream like that about K was the time to ask K to leave your house. Actually you should have asked her to leave before that. But once the dreams started it was definitely time.

You are not responsible for the dream. You are responsible for putting yourself in a position where you felt so strongly about another woman that those thoughts permeated your dreams.


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> So, WH, what you want from your thread is some clarity?
> 
> You are certain that your M is over and you want to be clear on why and how and who has what responsibility?
> 
> ...



Yea , it's sure looking that way Dame, ya pretty well summed it up.
K is still around , comes over now and then for a few days but with everything that's happened not too often and nothings gone any further.
As far as the person , hmm. l just don't know l mean things get away from you.

Look at her new guy , his suppose to be all gentle and fkg caring , but his just helped break up a family and messed with my wifes head even further. 
lf he wasn't on the scene for her to fall back to there's not a doubt , we could have worked this out and made it back.

So , l just don't know. In lots of ways K saw me needing and neglected


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

whitehawk said:


> So , l just don't know. In lots of ways K saw me needing and neglected


K might have seen you "needing and neglected". But if she was a fair minded person she would have seen that your wife was also "needing and neglected". You and your wife share the responsibility for the way your marriage was. It takes two.

K knew exactly what she was doing. She was going after the husband of the woman whose house she lived in. 

If you and your wife ever start to get back together K will have to be completely out of your life. She is not a friend of your marriage.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

whitehawk said:


> So , l just don't know. In lots of ways K saw me needing and neglected


This is a terrible, sad, sad excuse.

People are complicated and it's rarely right to say a person is all good or all bad, but we can certainly judge people's actions. This OW did a very, very, very bad thing. And you did, too. You really haven't a leg to stand on in this.

You may have been 'neglected,' but that was between you and your W. Marriage is supposed to be the safe place that you commit your heart to. You took all that safety away. It's bad enough that affairs happen and cause such horrible heartbreak and break up families, but to have it happen in real time right in front of you is truly awful and cruel.

At some point, you have to start acknowledging that there is no point to finding equivalency in her actions.

And even if your M is done for, you should have the moral courage to cut off your relationship with K completely.


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> The first time you had a dream like that about K was the time to ask K to leave your house. Actually you should have asked her to leave before that. But once the dreams started it was definitely time.
> 
> You are not responsible for the dream. You are responsible for putting yourself in a position where you felt so strongly about another woman that those thoughts permeated your dreams.



Yea , now finally out of my own fog which l didn;t even realize l was in until an education round here , yep l should have. 
To be honest though at the time , l'd had girls be like this with other guys round me as l was saying and all l ever got was basically don't be so ridiculous.
l even got it of my wife once while we were away. we were partying and she spent the whole night talking with these two guys and - they'd arranged to go up into the mountains on a day trip , just the 3 of them , next day.
Oh we're just friends ra ra - what's wrong with that. She didn't even know them , they were all drunk !


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Please, can you clarify the timeline?
When K entered in the picture? When your wife started getting therapy? When did she asked for the separation? When did she move out? When OM entered in the picture?
About your children... what is the actual arrangement? How often dod you have them since the separation? Anyone filing for D?


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> This is a terrible, sad, sad excuse.
> 
> People are complicated and it's rarely right to say a person is all good or all bad, but we can certainly judge people's actions. This OW did a very, very, very bad thing. And you did, too. You really haven't a leg to stand on in this.
> 
> ...



Ahh dunno bout that one Dame . You haven't mentioned him and what his effected.
And K well , l can't see what difference it'd make now. l offered to never see her again right then and there but she took off with someone else anyway so you know.

but the rest is just about my anger Dame . if there is one then maybe l can lose that anger , find some new peace and move on !


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

whitehawk said:


> Yea , now finally out of my own fog which l didn;t even realize l was in until an education round here , yep l should have.
> 
> To be honest though at the time , l'd had girls be like this with other guys round me as l was saying and all l ever got was basically don't be so ridiculous.
> 
> ...


Many people think that as long as sex does not happen it's ok. They feel this way until their spouse has an EA. Then they start to realize the importance of the emotional connection between spouses and how it can be distoryed by an EA. The EA distroys that connection because the WS is now emotionally connected to anohter person and their energy is no longer focused on the marital relationship.

It's a learning process for many.


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

Acabado said:


> Please, can you clarify the timeline?
> When K entered in the picture? When your wife started getting therapy? When did she asked for the separation? When did she move out? When OM entered in the picture?
> About your children... what is the actual arrangement? How often dod you have them since the separation? Anyone filing for D?


Hi Aca.
K about 15mths , We started to get along about 3 mths later. 12 mths after that my marriage separated.
I find out finally , my wife had been getting therapy about 6mths before we split .
She asked to separate about 51/2 mths ago and she moved out 4mths ago now. We had to live together till we had the money plus giving my daughter time.

No no divorce stuff at all yet. l have my daughter pretty well anytime she's up to another house hop but usually week ends so far. l also drop in to see her whenever l can .

The OM she'd met 3-4 wks before she asked to separate but she'd decided and wrote the letter to me , just hadn't given it to me as yet , 6wks before. There were dates on things l found and it all matched in to what she'd said.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

whitehawk said:


> Ahh dunno bout that one Dame . You haven't mentioned him and what his effected.
> And K well , l can't see what difference it'd make now. l offered to never see her again right then and there but she took off with someone else anyway so you know.
> 
> but the rest is just about my anger Dame . if there is one then maybe l can lose that anger , find some new peace and move on !


We don't have all the details, so we can only comment based on what you've written.

You and your W had problems, you say. You say that she tried to address them but you weren't as responsive as you could have been. This is kind of Marriage 101 - typical things that you have to work out in a marriage.

Then in comes this OW and after a long year for your W, she is done. Her OM didn't come into the picture until she had had close to a year of hearing and seeing you fall for another woman right in her own house, no?

So, based on what you've written, I think your marriage could have been salvaged were it not for your behavior. Yes, there are things your W did & then in the end there was her Mr. Shoulder, but at its core, your EA broke up your marriage.

You can be angry that she has moved on with someone else. There's no shame in anger. It's a natural reaction and emotion and it will probably pass with time. But if you still love your W, you should be angry at yourself for being so selfish for that year when you very happily partied with another woman in your house.


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Many people think that as long as sex does not happen it's ok. They feel this way until their spouse has an EA. Then they start to realize the importance of the emotional connection between spouses and how it can be distoryed by an EA. The EA distroys that connection because the WS is now emotionally connected to anohter person and their energy is no longer focused on the marital relationship.
> 
> It's a learning process for many.



Yeah you've hit it on the head Ele. As stupid as it sounds , it wasn't until reading about it here more and more , l've only just put all the fog the EA , the seriousness of it ,all my end in my mess, together.

I


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

I see. So after that horrible year and a few months of therapy she wrote a letter which never gave you (It' seems to be a pattern of her, avoiding conflict, not adressing the issues directly and build up resentments on her own, adding the hopeless emotions of being depressed). That was the key date. Likely that letter was a therapy exercise, homework from her IC.
That moment, when she put black over white her feelings she decided she wanted to separate, was done with marriage, she gave permission, felt open to seek someone to talk (OM, shoulder to cry enter the picture). Then she felt heard, more alive, brave, ready to actually make the move only she planned it carefully and left you on the dark a few weeks more before expressing herself. OM was basicaly the catalyst she needed to pull the trigger for good. I'ts very common. Not saying acceptable, just common. She should have left you without external interference but IC. She just couldn't, people is scared to be alone, to start a new path, fear is overwelming, they need some sort of liquid corauge to get out. She used a friendly ear to exit the marriage, a rescuer.
For her it's not cheating as she was already "divorced" in her mind and heart. Again, very common. Only this time within reason. 

When did you know about OM's?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Zanne said:


> Well, don't put too much energy into that. It's a theory that is popular around here and has some merit, but it can also be used as an excuse, IMHO.


EAs are not a theory that people around here came up with. They are recognized by most people who deal with marriage counseling and affair recovery. And they are definitely recognized as a problem in the marriages of those whose marriages are seriously damaged by them.

What some are calling EA’s in your case are one a different level. They may or may not actually be EAs as it seems they are limited in many ways. 

Whitehawk spent a year basically ignoring his wife with hanging out with their house guest. His wife had every reason to be extremely hurt by what he did.


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> We don't have all the details, so we can only comment based on what you've written.
> 
> You and your W had problems, you say. You say that she tried to address them but you weren't as responsive as you could have been. This is kind of Marriage 101 - typical things that you have to work out in a marriage.
> 
> ...



Hmm , here I go again . But what else can l say , you make perfect sense Dame and this EA and like that , was very very serious stuff and my doing .
We had the other problems understandable after everything but thing yea anytime she lost it , K was always the one huge in the end , thing to consistently keep coming back from her.
With her anger usually told the real story , she wasn't a straight shooter until she got mad ever .


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

From my own past experience...

Women rarely ever tell you their true feelings. You are supposed to know and if they have to tell you, then it just doesn't matter because you must not have that connection with them that you thought you did.

Whitehawk, what you did was stupid. I cannot say that I have not done many stupid things in my previous marriage. If you want your wife back, I am going to suggest that you read some books, articles on what women want in a marriage. The first thing is to understand them.

She gave you her heart, and you trod on it like it was nothing. She now doesn't trust you with her heart. She doesn't trust giving it back to you. She doesn't think you will treat it right. To be perfectly honest, she may never trust you again.

If you want her back, first understand her needs and desires and second forget about yours. You tortured her for a year. She will want some 'justice' for that... I don't know what the word is but she wants a reckoning. Did she help facilitate your marriages demise? Yes. Does it matter? You need to overcome how this affects you and if you want her back, go after her. Read, Listen, Learn, Love, ... and for God's sake stay away from the other woman for any reason whatsoever. Your wife gets one word that you so much as hears a hint that you saw, spoke, listened to her at all and you are done!

Now go out and start making yourself a better person. Go learn about her and go fight for her!!!! Or just wallow in self pity and become a sad lonely fat old man


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

An historian named Barbara Tuchman published a theory of historical analysis that she simply called 'Folly.' This claimed a formal view of history in which we would recognize that people react and do things on impulse without thinking and this can dramatically affect any course of events. She talked about how we can try to define cause and effect as if everyone's motivations are clear and can be divined, but in reality that isn't how humans behave. I used to called this the 'sh!t happens' approach to history.

WH, you have a lot of different variables to your story and sh!t just happened. There's blame to go around. Your W did some of it and you did some of it. The thing with K is the worst of the sh!t that was all coming together to cause your split up. Your W kept bringing it up after the fact because it was a betrayal & that hurts dramatically.

If you try to define and treat your anger, it will be very hard because it's probably unfocused & it's unfocused because of the 'folly' effect. There's just too much stuff in there all together that contributed to the demise of your M. You can be sure that your EA was the major contributor. I'm sure that's a fact. Whether your W didn't confront you earlier because of depression is an open question that you'll never know the answer to. 

No matter what, though, the EA was a betrayal that was going to deeply threaten your M whenever/however she chose to confront it. And that's on you. Out of all of the variables that can't very clearly be judged, you know that that one is on you.

So, maybe if you accept that, it can defuse your anger a bit.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Zanne said:


> I didn't say TAMers came up with the idea. But I really do believe that one can use the excuse of being in "the fog" for not recognizing symptoms of a marriage in decline. I also think on a certain level, you are still aware of right and wrong.


I think that "the fog" and the marriage being in decline are two different things.



When there are problems in a marriage people tend to only see their side of it in that they see what their spouse is doing wrong and not what they are doing wrong. Generally it takes two to make a marriage work and to make a marriage fail.
Usually at this point both spouses are not getting enough of their needs met by the other for one reason or the other.

At this point some people choose to have affairs they are generally in a selfish place in which they are only looking at their own side of things and at making sure that their own needs are being met. The last thing they are concerned about is if their spouse is getting their needs met. They have at least one foot out of the marriage.

What people call “the fog” is the WS just not caring anymore. They are wrapped up in the feel-good of having their needs met.

Have you read the book “Surviving an Affair” by Dr. Harley? He addresses what you are talking about. The marriage is already in trouble when the affair happens. Usually, not always, but usually the BS has contributed to the decline in the marriage. In order to recover the marriage, both spouses have to realize how they contributed to the problems in the marriage and both have to work to fix it. The affair(s) just add a level of pain to the marital problems that is hard to recover from.


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

Acabado said:


> I see. So after that horrible year and a few months of therapy she wrote a letter which never gave you (It' seems to be a pattern of her, avoiding conflict, not adressing the issues directly and build up resentments on her own, adding the hopeless emotions of being depressed). That was the key date. Likely that letter was a therapy exercise, homework from her IC.
> That moment, when she put black over white her feelings she decided she wanted to separate, was done with marriage, she gave permission, felt open to seek someone to talk (OM, shoulder to cry enter the picture). Then she felt heard, more alive, brave, ready to actually make the move only she planned it carefully and left you on the dark a few weeks more before expressing herself. OM was basicaly the catalyst she needed to pull the trigger for good. I'ts very common. Not saying acceptable, just common. She should have left you without external interference but IC. She just couldn't, people is scared to be alone, to start a new path, fear is overwelming, they need some sort of liquid corauge to get out. She used a friendly ear to exit the marriage, a rescuer.
> For her it's not cheating as she was already "divorced" in her mind and heart. Again, very common. Only this time within reason.
> 
> When did you know about OM's?


That all fits exactly to the lot aca. And yep she also will only ever front things when l've brought them up and dug a bit , often a lot.
Her whole family are rug sweepers , nothing ever happens , anywhere , with anything , according to them . It's just swept away and never happened.
You know even she said if only I'd talked to you , we all need a brick over the head now and then before we see some things and I should have told you everything and many other things 100's of times.

She told me about him with the separation. She said that nothing had happened yet but she would like to start spending time with him. She'd had her very own EA then too.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but whitehawk, you really seem to be minimizing your own EA because of your anger with your wife moving on. Do I condone the fact that she also got involved with someone while you are still married? Absolutely not. At the same time, you don't seem to see that your affair is bad...as bad as her getting involved with someone else before getting separated. You think your fog has lifted, but really, I am not so sure. Again, this comes from how you minimize your involvement with K AND the fact that you said she still comes around. The fog doesn't go away as long as you are still in contact with the affair partner. I'm not telling you that you have to stop seeing her... IF you have no intention of trying to fight for your marriage. What I'm saying is that you need to acknowledge what your part was in the breakdown of your marriage. You need to acknowledge the fact that your wife didn't get along with this woman, voiced her concern to you, and you basically brushed her off. If you want to fight for the marriage, get K out of the picture.... NOW!

I know how it feels to be in your shoes. I did the same thing you did, with the exception of physical contact (meaning proximity). I never met my AP in person. My husband believed I wouldn't care who he was talking to nor how they spoke to each other. He thought we were too far gone. The difference? I acknowledged it to him and he acknowledged his (eventually) and we have been reconciling since. It's been almost a year since it all came out. When I first came here, I didn't think I had a right to be angry because I had done it too. But I realized I DID have that right, just as he did. But I don't minimize my EA nor does he minimize his. BOTH APs are out of our lives. 

Regarding how it looks...her being out with the new guy already... how do you think it looked having K over all the time? How do you think it looked when your wife was in bed and you partied with K and anyone else who was over. Believe me, those friends you had over were able to see what was going on with K. You both cheated. Yours was just a longer affair than hers.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

whitehawk said:


> Hmmm , more bad news l'm afraid. Things did get often accidentally a little heated with K. Definite mutual attraction there that was sometimes hard to push aside.


Noone seems to have commented on this. How heated? Did your EA include kissing? Touching? Orgasm?



whitehawk said:


> Hi Aca.
> K about 15mths , We started to get along about 3 mths later. 12 mths after that my marriage separated.
> I find out finally , my wife had been getting therapy about 6mths before we split .
> She asked to separate about 51/2 mths ago and she moved out 4mths ago now. We had to live together till we had the money plus giving my daughter time.
> ...


So you had what seems to have POSSIBLY been more than an EA. After a year of that your wife decided to leave you and at that point felt free to date others, the letter was written two weeks before OM came on the scene. Do I have all that right?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Wazza said:


> Noone seems to have commented on this. How heated? Did your EA include kissing? Touching? Orgasm?


He has already stated that they never did any of that.. that there was nothing physical.


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

MovingAhead said:


> From my own past experience...
> 
> Women rarely ever tell you their true feelings. You are supposed to know and if they have to tell you, then it just doesn't matter because you must not have that connection with them that you thought you did.
> 
> ...



Oh your so timid 

Don't worry moving , l never wallow for long , l get my head straight and then l slowly start to wind up again.

Thanks mate but no she's done as l mentioned somewhere in here but it'd be hard to find now don't worry but. And maybe so am l to l think .
At the beginning l did try, everything, read lots too but once she'd moved out and began seeing OM l'm the one that's done then.
lf anything maybe down the track like a lot of couples seem to end up doing full circle , but not now.

This is about finally understanding , anger , what was happening and realizing l f'kd up . l 'd never even heard of an EA


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

whitehawk said:


> This is about finally understanding , anger , what was happening and realizing l f'kd up . l 'd never even heard of an EA


People come on here and say this a lot. I wonder, though, how you really can't know.

You may not know the term 'EA,' but you must know the term 'flirting.' Even in the wider world where people don't really understand the devastation of emotional affairs, they know that married people shouldn't be flirting, especially not with one particular person over a long period of time.

So, didn't you know at the time that what you were doing was wrong and a danger to your marriage? Is it really true that you're only thinking about that now after your W reamed you and left you?

Giving names to things can help us, but it's the behavior that's important & not knowing what an EA is should not have stopped you from seeing that what you were doing was wrong.


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## Shadow_Nirvana (Jan 1, 2013)

I honestly don't get why you are not divorcing. I don't see why noone hasn't brought this up either. Did I miss something? Is your state on of those "You have to be separated for x months for divorce to be initiated" states?

What you did was inexcusable. What she did is inexcusable,too.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> He has already stated that they never did any of that.. that there was nothing physical.


Then what did the post I quoted mean?


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

You said she is done. You say you are done. 

So be done with it and file for divorce. All this wallowing in anger and pity is wasted.

So: dating a woman in front of your wife is bad. Check. Marrying a woman who lies to you about her feelings is bad. Check. 

Forget about whether you have a right to be mad. It's over.


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Maybe I'm in the minority here, but whitehawk, you really seem to be minimizing your own EA because of your anger with your wife moving on. Do I condone the fact that she also got involved with someone while you are still married? Absolutely not. At the same time, you don't seem to see that your affair is bad...as bad as her getting involved with someone else before getting separated. You think your fog has lifted, but really, I am not so sure. Again, this comes from how you minimize your involvement with K AND the fact that you said she still comes around. The fog doesn't go away as long as you are still in contact with the affair partner. I'm not telling you that you have to stop seeing her... IF you have no intention of trying to fight for your marriage. What I'm saying is that you need to acknowledge what your part was in the breakdown of your marriage. You need to acknowledge the fact that your wife didn't get along with this woman, voiced her concern to you, and you basically brushed her off. If you want to fight for the marriage, get K out of the picture.... NOW!
> 
> I know how it feels to be in your shoes. I did the same thing you did, with the exception of physical contact (meaning proximity). I never met my AP in person. My husband believed I wouldn't care who he was talking to nor how they spoke to each other. He thought we were too far gone. The difference? I acknowledged it to him and he acknowledged his (eventually) and we have been reconciling since. It's been almost a year since it all came out. When I first came here, I didn't think I had a right to be angry because I had done it too. But I realized I DID have that right, just as he did. But I don't minimize my EA nor does he minimize his. BOTH APs are out of our lives.
> 
> Regarding how it looks...her being out with the new guy already... how do you think it looked having K over all the time? How do you think it looked when your wife was in bed and you partied with K and anyone else who was over. Believe me, those friends you had over were able to see what was going on with K. You both cheated. Yours was just a longer affair than hers.


Thanks for that but no, l was minimizing it during those times- or l wasn't sure , and that's why l so needed to talk to you guys like this now. lt's taken me this very hard 4 mths and now what 8 or 10 hrs on here with you all , to realize just how serious what l'd done was .
The anger is where it belongs now and should have been l think, mostly on myself.
But not all we both weren't getting things and shoulda , coulda, woulda but , K was what did it and so painfully and for so long.
The OM l still say is wrong but , we were over. lt's still a cop out to me and are a lot of other things but who could blame her after what l put her through like that.

Mind you , l feel like a bit of a fool round here now because l've been on here 4 mths thinking and trying to get past the opposite , blaming , the whole deal


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

Wiserforit said:


> You said she is done. You say you are done.
> 
> So be done with it and file for divorce. All this wallowing in anger and pity is wasted.
> 
> ...


Easy for you to say , if my anger is in the wrong spot like it might have been today when l saw them - he might end up through that fk'g coffee shop window if l pass them again on a bad day . He almost did today , posibly even worse .
l also have to deal with her all the time and keep peace for my daughter
The anger isn't trivial , right now it could very easily totally f'k what's left of my life and daughter !
l've done amazingly well and so much since all this has happened , but this anger today , is very dangerous and l need to sort it .


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Is this your daughter from another marriage/relationship?


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

Whitehawlk, count yourself lucky that, while your wife slept with you, you didn't wke up one morning with your you-know-what sliced off. 

Let your wife go. She has finally found a bit of happiness and has absolutely no reason to want you back. She can only remember the lonliness, turmoil, distrust, and disrespect from being with you for at least the last year - maybe longer.

Examine the REAL reasons you want her back. I doubt the word "love" will be a reason. Not if you're honest with yourself. I say this because you wrote that you realized you wanted her back aftet you saw her - along with the rest of the town- with the othet man. That's not love my friend, that's shame & jealousy.


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

Shadow_Nirvana said:


> I honestly don't get why you are not divorcing. I don't see why noone hasn't brought this up either. Did I miss something? Is your state on of those "You have to be separated for x months for divorce to be initiated" states?
> 
> What you did was inexcusable. What she did is inexcusable,too.


Couldn't even handle worrying about a divorce yet amongst everything else we've had to do with this mess .


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

walkonmars said:


> Whitehawlk, count yourself lucky that, while your wife slept with you, you didn't wke up one morning with your you-know-what sliced off.
> 
> Let your wife go. She has finally found a bit of happiness and has absolutely no reason to want you back. She can only remember the lonliness, turmoil, distrust, and disrespect from being with you for at least the last year - maybe longer.
> 
> Examine the REAL reasons you want her back. I doubt the word "love" will be a reason. Not if you're honest with yourself. I say this because you wrote that you realized you wanted her back aftet you saw her - along with the rest of the town- with the othet man. That's not love my friend, that's shame & jealousy.



Sorry man , loves the main reason . And what we were for the other 16yrs and my daughter to of course .
But no although l see now l earnt it , l still couldn't go past the OM right now though or the person she seems to have become,


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

The problem with your anger is it is probably aimed at yourself for your own actions. Believe me when I was going through my D, we were done in March... By paper it was over in November. I had a lot to deal with.

Anger is a part of the healing process and so is bitterness. This is an opportunity for you to become better. Grasp it and hold onto it.

When I had anger, I thought of the different guys she cheated with and I pictured them when I worked out in the gym. It was a good cathartic release for me. I was bitter but not much and that was easy to let go.

My fiance has stage 2 cancer which spread to her brain. I honestly don't know how long I have with her. When I was in the airport yesterday, I picked up a book called 'Hiking Through'. It's about a guy who hiked the 2000 miles of the Appalachian Trail after his wife passed away with breast cancer. It talks of his journey and his metamorphosis. My divorce greatly changed me for the better because I took my anger and turned it to understanding and goals in life. I wanted to be the best man I could for me, my kids and at the time my wife... (That didn't work out) I failed to keep my marriage to a serial cheater together... Somehow It worked out for me

If you don't get anything out of this divorce, you are wasting your time. Take your anger and turn it. The anger and bitterness will come but use them as energy to help you be a better man. Don't hate yourself. Make yourself the best man that you could be. Hate the guy that you were and vow that you won't make the same mistakes and that you will teach your daughter wisdom so that she will not make those mistakes as well.


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## Calibre12 (Nov 27, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Noone seems to have commented on this. How heated? Did your EA include kissing? Touching? Orgasm?
> 
> White hawk...answer this please.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hopefull363 (Feb 13, 2012)

You were both wrong in your marriage. She sent signals and you went and had an EA instead of listening to those signals. You sent signals and she ignores them and let you have and EA under her nose without stopping it. Then shut down emotionally and had an affair. If you want her back start being the man she fell in love with. Who cares that she's seeing someone else. You're her husband, court her. If you don't want her back then keep your anger. You do deserve it and it's justifiable. You are grieving the relationship and this is one of the steps. Once you are done with the grieving start working on yourself. You will always have to be civil for your daughters sake. I wish you and your wife well.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Reading some signs of healing from you, man. Yeas, getting to know the severity of your own actions, understanding the anger... "reading" the dynamics... all of this is healing.
Mourn this loss. Be the better Dad you can be. Learn from this.


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

I've had a break and tried to digest this better. l really want to thank people to for their input and l'll try to clear my end up better here as l'm not all that good at so much typing so there's Dames variables .

K wasn't here every night for 12 mths , it would've been roughly adding up to say 3mths of staying over that 12 mths.
She did try to stop it , questioned it and my marriage , in things she'd said over time on and off l see now.
And she was also very good friends with others that were coming over not only me .
But l can see in reading about EA's, any A's for that matter , that l also become her drug-chemical imbalance , fog and her mine.
You begin kidding yourself , rug sweeping , and your also a bit resentful with other things in your marriage. like she was always sleeping , she wasn't much fun anymore, there was aways something wrong with her , we never had much money so l'd left what there was for her and my daughter to go somewhere , do something , like see a movie or lunch , or fuel and costs to go back and stay at grandmas .
l hadn't actually done one thing or had any fun myself for years. instead l stayed busy at trying to get of finances , my business , a home for them.
l left any spare money for them , l never did a thing or even went out for 4 yrs.
l felt l'd sacrificed a lot and l'd got our finances and a home for us back on track and it was my turn to have a bit of fun .
W even told me l deserved to cut lose for awhile after everything l'd done.
But - K obviously wasn't part of that idea and that went way too far and festered in W , it also began to take over me and my marriage and l let it.

Nothin wrong with some partying , we did heaps before all this , but this had K and that needed to stop badly.

l also realized that the sacrifices l'd made , should have been turned into doing stuff with my family and W again too. Not all partying and definitely not K.

There , l think l've got that part straight here now !

But so getting back to my anger question , of course it's important to know where it belongs , figure out who's to blame. Well l need to anyway l know that , much.

As l say not only am l scared l'll blow if l see them again , but in my healing and moving on.
Not to mention l we will still have to deal with each other for yrs and most importantly some kind of peace for my daughter and us .

My wife and l still talk a lot through all this now , once the first 6wks passed and began subsiding a little . We've helped each other a ot too , financially , through letters and feelings. Shes in big debt now yet still forked out 1,000's more than she was obligated to over Xmas , that she hasn't got , because l got a bad pat before Xmas and couldn't afford to cover stuff . She's even baked me pies and dropped them in - l can't cook.

Just the other night she sent me a long letter saying that she wasn't fair to me.
that she'd always had trouble opening up and that she should have told me right through with K especially , her depression , the doctors.
She blasted me for being so wrong with K , but said too that she was feeling ike that = yet telling me every time l did ask , no she was cool just tired and to go and have some fun l deserved it.
She said she wanted to change that , to be fair on me in the future .
To be honest though ,l really appeciated what she was saying , but l was also confused again now 
- why did it even MATTER anymore - we've separated and she was seeing someone else .
But l saw RED yesterday , badly , seeing them . And although l've been working through this K - my separation , it's only just this last week or so , started reading more here about EA's. and how much hurt and damage they can do.

l knew l was having a little to much fun , and some of it was getting a bit warmer than it should have , but l felt l was still being loyal because we never let it sex up.

Well , l see now you don't have too , and how bad and hurtful l've been "long" before she even thought about separation.

I hope that all makes a bit more sense now and again thanks so much for your help through this !


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

So now , with all this , acknowledging also and learning here about what l've actually done myself in all this, long before she gave up on us.

Did l even have the right to be angry at her , After yesterday , l got back in the car and took off , quickly. l saw big red and l didn't trust myself to be anywhere near them , especially in the main street , my daughter .

l came roaring home , furious . l'm never gonna give that ***** the time of fgkg day ever again.
Here l've been allowing talk , her to come over or me there , walking around as if she's done fckg nothing to me yet fckg look at them - right there . in the middle of that stupid town

l was absolutely hurt and fuming , and after all my recovery.

Right she's getting the full 180 from here , she can go fk herself she's never getting jack from me , ever again ra ra.
To hell with staying around here , not even for my daughter. l'm moving and fast and l'll go where l damwell wanna even if it is 2 or 3hours away. She's destroyed my daughters life with her family and her dad now , not me !

But yes she's moved on with mr shoulder , for now . She tore us apart to , but had l already done that to her and us long long before with this EA , and for 12 mths.

So then what does she really deserve , maybe not even a 180 . Maybe l was all totally wrong with the lot . Maybe l'm lucky she even still talks to me myself , not the other way round.

Maybe l drove her out of her own home and us !

RED , is not good , it's bloody dangerous in this and will effect everything l do from here and the rest of my daughters childhood . And maybe , l had that all wrong !


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

whitehawk said:


> l knew l was having a little to much fun , and some of it was getting a bit warmer than it should have , but l felt l was still being loyal because we never let it sex up.


Whitehawk, again this suggests to me that something physical,but less than interourse, happened.

That is actually pretty central to things, and maybe there are some suggestions we could make, but not without specific details. Because exactly where you drew the line makes a bg difference.


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

Yea , l see what you mean and l was hoping to avoid the fine print.

l did say a few times that she was hot , had a gorgeous a22S, that she'd drive guys crazy . W find out but they were more so just amongst everyone 1/2 drunk and talking all sorts of crap , you know how that gets

We also did curl up a few times and my hands got a bit wondery , l felt her a bit though through that and did wind up down her jeans once or twice . 
But it stopped there before it went any further .

we'd sometimes end up curled up on a couch or something later in the night .
W was right , she did really turn me on but l also felt that hey l'd basically resisted and your always gonna see someone you like it's only natural. but of course this was a bit too much.

Some mentioned W would hear it in my tones and see changes when K was around . Well W did actually accuse me of all that too along the way and l do know it would have shown.

But as l said earlier , l have seen that in her and gf's before too so l tried to subconsciously defend it that way l think and brush it off.
But she was right , l was really enjoying K and way too much !


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I'm sorry WH. This is all such a tragic waste. You hurt her badly and now she's hurt you badly. And what's the point? After so many years and a child to raise, why risk ruining everything for an attraction to another woman when you clearly still loved your W? But you did it & she was too internalized and depressed to confront you & now you see red because you see her doing what you did.

Take a deep breath and declare it the tragedy that it is. She got depressed when you chose another woman & you got enraged when she chose another man. Different strokes. But it's a waste now. The rage is empty. Let it blow itself out. It's done. You started it. She ended it.


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> I'm sorry WH. This is all such a tragic waste. You hurt her badly and now she's hurt you badly. And what's the point? After so many years and a child to raise, why risk ruining everything for an attraction to another woman when you clearly still loved your W? But you did it & she was too internalized and depressed to confront you & now you see red because you see her doing what you did.
> 
> Take a deep breath and declare it the tragedy that it is. She got depressed when you chose another woman & you got enraged when she chose another man. Different strokes. But it's a waste now. The rage is empty. Let it blow itself out. It's done. You started it. She ended it.



Once again Dame , gee what l'd give to have your clear down the line thinking. After all this , l think we have it nailed thanks to yourself and others .

That stupid little town can't see what l did to deserve this but l see now my W could of course and had to live with it and like that for so long .
It is a tragedy .


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Hand down jeans. In my view it was a PA, not an EA.

Try this test. You work out that your wife's hand has been down another man's jeans. EA or PA?

And my advice is to tell your wife, in full, and apologise.

Why?

Firstly because it is the right thing to do.

Secondly, because if you ever want to reconcile with her you have no chance if it is built on lies, and "nothing physical" is a lie.

Thirdly because, to be blunt, I worked it out and I don't even know you. It wouldn't surprise me if your wife already knows, or at least suspects. And then you say "Nothing happened" and she thinks "Why bother even talking when he's lying?"


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

whitehawk said:


> Am l just fckd up or maybe W was right about this too and l'm actually in love with her ?


Who can tell how you feel about the OW? The relationship you developed with her is so effed up (falling in 'love' as your W cried in the next room...) that it's a very twisted type of love if that's what it is. You've trapped yourself in dysfunction. There's nothing noble in any of it. You can't choose your W anymore and the OW is the sort of woman who would spend her time with another woman's H's hands down her pants while the W slept nearby. Month after month. Great gal!

Truly, your only noble choice is to try to move forward on your own, being a father to your daughter, recognizing how badly you treated your W, and trying to be a better man for the future.

(And I'm assuming here that the talk now of being in love with the OW is code for your not wanting a reconciliation.)


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> Who can tell how you feel about the OW? The relationship you developed with her is so effed up (falling in 'love' as your W cried in the next room...) that it's a very twisted type of love if that's what it is. You've trapped yourself in dysfunction. There's nothing noble in any of it. You can't choose your W anymore and the OW is the sort of woman who would spend her time with another woman's H's hands down her pants while the W slept nearby. Month after month. Great gal!
> 
> Truly, your only noble choice is to try to move forward on your own, being a father to your daughter, recognizing how badly you treated your W, and trying to be a better man for the future.
> 
> (And I'm assuming here that the talk now of being in love with the OW is code for your not wanting a reconciliation.)


 oops , l deleted that one , it's too much right now .
I'm glad the Dame caught it first though and gave me another serve , your right and any of that is all just stupidity right now . As if l don't have enough problems.

PS . No l'd want her and my family but that can't be . Maybe later down track though she turns around and now that we've worked this out l'd be open as long as he's well out of it.
But for now no girls wanted , l just want to go on with my daughter and fixing up my life , head !


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

What about the OM ?

Not in taking anything away from what l've done in this 
but , isn't he scum ? 
He's hung out with a mixed up and deeply hurt still married women , with a family , and still living in the marital home .

He'd know damn well that being there for her could give her the courage and back up to tear the family apart and walk out and then helped her do it.
He'd have known damn well too that there's also an innocent 11yr old girls families future at stake .

When not so long ago they were a beautiful family and couple but that'd been under huge pressures for years and well possibly still repairable.

And that in her frame of mind she was very hurt and in no state to be doing anything rash without at least filling her husband in properly for once and giving that a chance first with so much at stake !
L mean l was sort of unaware of the damage l was doing and what she'd been going through but this guy was knowingly messing with a troubled family and her .

There was no doubt , that someone had gotten into her ear , that was very loud and clear.
She'd had a whole new work crowd for 10 mths, all females and she had him 3-4 wks or so before she went through with it !


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Yes the OM is doing something very wrong as well. Unfortunately we live in a society where anything goes and many believe that it's ok to exploit any crack in a marriage.


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

RightfulRiskTaker said:


> Wazza said:
> 
> 
> > Noone seems to have commented on this. How heated? Did your EA include kissing? Touching? Orgasm?
> ...


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Noone seems to have commented on this. How heated? Did your EA include kissing? Touching? Orgasm?
> 
> 
> 
> So you had what seems to have POSSIBLY been more than an EA. After a year of that your wife decided to leave you and at that point felt free to date others, the letter was written two weeks before OM came on the scene. Do I have all that right?


Close enough W, think now [ l'm getting confused ] it was around 3-4 wks before she'd met him. And l found dates and stuff that fit .
And yea , it was slightly more . l thought l'd done well though because it stopped at that but , apparently not too well at all actually.


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

Acabado said:


> Reading some signs of healing from you, man. Yeas, getting to know the severity of your own actions, understanding the anger... "reading" the dynamics... all of this is healing.
> Mourn this loss. Be the better Dad you can be. Learn from this.



Thanks a lot Aca.


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## Shadow_Nirvana (Jan 1, 2013)

Just divorce her maybe? And see how it works out with K?

Seriously what your wife(she is just your wife on paper,atm) is doing, is nowhere near acceptable. Why are you allowing this? Is this your idea of punishing yourself for what you did? Do you know what punishment is good for : Rehabilitation. The only punishment you can dish out to yourself is dealing with your issues that lead you to this precipice. 

And sorry but I cannot actually get angry at the OM. He wouldn't be there if your wife didn't want him to be there.


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Hand down jeans. In my view it was a PA, not an EA.
> 
> Try this test. You work out that your wife's hand has been down another man's jeans. EA or PA?
> 
> ...



Unfortunately Wazza , l see now with your stuff and everyone else's in here , it was as powerful as any affair whatever we label it, especially once touch l guess , has come into it .

Yea W did always suspect that but l don't know , l mean l felt well, we didn't sleep together , l did resist her - but with everything else l can see here , that was pretty well irrelevant l guess.


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

Shadow_Nirvana said:


> Just divorce her maybe? And see how it works out with K?
> 
> Seriously what your wife(she is just your wife on paper,atm) is doing, is nowhere near acceptable. Why are you allowing this? Is this your idea of punishing yourself for what you did? Do you know what punishment is good for : Rehabilitation. The only punishment you can dish out to yourself is dealing with your issues that lead you to this precipice.
> 
> And sorry but I cannot actually get angry at the OM. He wouldn't be there if your wife didn't want him to be there.



Unfortunately , even after all this , l still feel like taht too /
.
my daughters just texting me now through mums phone and because it's her phone it reminded me and l'm seeing red already.
nothing l can do to stop her though now . we've been apart nearly 5 mths.

K has crossed my mind a few 100 times , what's it matter now and with w-ex doing this . l dunno maybe down track , l'm not ready yet !


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Yes the OM is doing something very wrong as well. Unfortunately we live in a society where anything goes and many believe that it's ok to exploit any crack in a marriage.



Yea , well l think he did too !


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

whitehawk said:


> Unfortunately Wazza , l see now with your stuff and everyone else's in here , it was as powerful as any affair whatever we label it, especially once touch l guess , has come into it .
> 
> Yea W did always suspect that but l don't know , l mean l felt well, we didn't sleep together , l did resist her - but with everything else l can see here , that was pretty well irrelevant l guess.


Don't justify, don't minimise, don't conceal. Confess.


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Don't justify, don't minimise, don't conceal. Confess.



lf she stuck around yea , but hey she's around town with someone else now , why touch it .


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## Shadow_Nirvana (Jan 1, 2013)

whitehawk said:


> lf she stuck around yea , but hey she's around town with someone else now , why touch it .


Yeah seriously, I do believe some of you are being too hard on him. His wife was a person that refused to deal with issues, closed the communication channels, just let the resentment build, checked out of marriage and is now in an affair.(I guess we can call it an affair, since they are technically still married.) Why is her attitude any better than his? Because she has justifications?:scratchhead:


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## Hopefull363 (Feb 13, 2012)

The other man is doing something very wrong by being with your wife. Just like you said. I think K was doing something even more wrong by trying to get a married man while his wife is asleep in the other room.

Moving might be an option for you. You wouldn't have to see them together or deal with the whole town knowing. Don't move 2 - 3 hours away from your daughter though. 20 - 30 minutes should do it. Also don't pursue a relationship with K. Think about what kind of person K really is. She obviously doesn't respect marriage if she was trying to get with you. And you have described a PA not an EA. Work on being a better person yourself. Don't worry about dating. When you're ready you'll do it.


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## Hopefull363 (Feb 13, 2012)

Shadow_Nirvana said:


> Yeah seriously, I do believe some of you are being too hard on him. His wife was a person that refused to deal with issues, closed the communication channels, just let the resentment build, checked out of marriage and is now in an affair.(I guess we can call it an affair, since they are technically still married.) Why is her attitude any better than his? Because she has justifications?:scratchhead:


I believe a lot of people told them they were both at fault for what happened. Myself included. It takes two.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Shadow_Nirvana said:


> Yeah seriously, I do believe some of you are being too hard on him. His wife was a person that refused to deal with issues, closed the communication channels, just let the resentment build, checked out of marriage and is now in an affair.(I guess we can call it an affair, since they are technically still married.) Why is her attitude any better than his? Because she has justifications?:scratchhead:


I agree with you, SN, to some extent. I think it's a matter of degree almost.

WH indulged his attraction to the OW for a very long period of time in his own home with his W there. He admits to very strong feelings for her, and attraction. He actually preferred to be with her and was glad when his W exited to go to sleep. It got physical - again, in his home, with his W there. Again, for a very long time.

The W by all accounts was in such a deep depression that she sought serious counseling. She sounds like she was emotionally traumatized as this was happening.

So, is what she is doing now the same? In terms of the actual fundamentals, it is. In its basics, it's an extramarital affair. But it's simply more sympathetic in human terms because of the way she got to this point. She's definitely checked out of the marriage, but who wouldn't be?

I think that even if she had forcefully confronted her H earlier, there would have been untold damage anyway because he was actively very interested and apparently falling in love with another woman right in front of her. But her depression did what depression does - it made it impossible for her to act. Hell, it can make it impossible to leave the house.

But while his W was seeking serious help for depression, H is clueless about it. How does he not see his W's condition? He doesn't see it because his emotional focus is on his OW. He has checked out on his W. He's partying after years of working hard. He's happy with his OW and friends. His W is background noise. (Of course, as is so typical, she's background noise that he still seems to need. He just doesn't put her in the foreground anymore.)

So, no, I think when put on the scale, her having an affair at this time, after all the damage has been done, is not as condemnable as what he did, which, in my opinion, is somewhat mind-blowing.

But this isn't a misery contest or a guilt contest. It's really just a sad mess, with none of the actors having a clear conscience.

And fwiw, WH, I think the OM is a bad actor as well. It's childish, though, for you to point fingers at him. It's what kids do when they are caught doing something wrong - "But HE did something worse, mommy." Someone else's bad behavior doesn't change the fact that the kid did something wrong.

You did something very wrong & it sounds like you are just starting to understand that after so many months.


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## Kallan Pavithran (Jan 17, 2012)

What you did was wrong but your wife seeing someone when you were still together (befrore seperation) and continuing it also is very wrong. 

Was she waiting for this to happen, was she waiting for a right man to come?
Both of you need councilling if you want to salvage this marriage, but her seeing someone on the side will not help in R. She should stop it first and put her 100% into the marriage and you should stop all contact with K and put 100% into the R.
In my opinion as your wife is already dating someone, and not ready to put her 100% and using this as an excuse to screw around is not going to help R. So you can also test the waters with K. informing K and your wife about everything.


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## jameskimp (May 8, 2012)

You wide sounds very passive aggressive. She didn't say a peep until she had her new man huh?

How were you supposed to know she was a depressed mess n bed every night? I suggest you leave and go with the one you really love, k.

No point in salvaging this broken mess of a relationship.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

jameskimp said:


> You wide sounds very passive aggressive. She didn't say a peep until she had her new man huh?
> 
> How were you supposed to know she was a depressed mess n bed every night? I suggest you leave and go with the one you really love, k.
> 
> No point in salvaging this broken mess of a relationship.


Yes, indeed. "Go with the one you really love, k."

You two would well deserve one another if you did this.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I worked with a man some years ago who suddenly was dropping the ball at work & when I asked if things were alright, he told me that he was fighting cancer. He said that he was fighting alone because his wife was in a new job that she was really engrossed in; it was exciting for her and he was very depressed and didn't want to rain on her parade. I urged him to talk to her, but as he got more and more depressed, everything went to h3ll for him. He had to change jobs within the company to help with the stress and a schedule that gave him time for treatment.

Finally, when he started to lose his hair, his wife noticed that something was wrong. This was as long as six months after he told me about his illness. She was shocked that he was so sick and he hadn't told her. He was so sad and weak that he didn't care anymore what she thought. All he could say to me the last time I saw him was, "She never noticed. How could she not have noticed? I think somewhere in me I kept hoping she would put me ahead of her work and at least notice, but she never did." She tried to help at that point, but I think the damage was done in his head. And I thought at the time that a great part of his motivation for keeping silent in the end was that he was subconsciously testing her commitment to him. The more she didn't notice, the more resolute he became in his belief that she just didn't care enough.

You never noticed that your W was so depressed. Her lack of communication is on her, but your not seeing it is on you. Your relationship with the OW began and developed in this dysfunction, deceit, and hurt. If you take the advice given by a few here to now feel free to try things with your OW, I think you have almost zero chance of a happy outcome, either with her or with any reconciliation possibilities for the future with your W.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

His wife was disrespected and emotionally abused in her own home by both her husband and the affair partner. What the husband did was jut plain cruel. She cried herself to sleep every night for a year and not surprisingly was paralyzed from acting by depression. He had both an emotional and a physical affair with his affair partner while both she and her children were there in the same home.

She drafted a letter telling the husband that the marriage was over and that she was separating from him 6 weeks before she separated. She first started to communicate with the other man 3 weeks after she drafted the letter, in other words after she made the decsion that after a year of abuse she was ending the marraige. I am sorry, I find it hard to blame her for her actions in light of the extenuating circumstances.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

whitehawk said:


> Just the other night she sent me a long letter saying that she wasn't fair to me.
> that she'd always had trouble opening up and that she should have told me right through with K especially , her depression , the doctors.
> ---------
> She said she wanted to change that, to be fair on me in the future .
> ...


I makes sense. Why didn't you ask her what the hell she meant with that letter? Was it just self serving BS?
Will she will tell you what's going on in her head from now on? Why, What's the goal? You don't need it NOW! You needed it before? You can't be her confidant after she left for another OM and is openly dating him.

What the hell did she mean?

The real conflict avoidant/passive-agressive _behavior_ was hers. You can think she was depressed, coldn't talk... well it can partially explain but it's not excuse either. She wrote that letter (the first one) but... how did you get it? Did she give you when she asked S or when she left? Did you get it snooping?


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

An EA can be even more divisive and damning than a PA can be. After all, in the EA, you are fastly condemining the spirituality of the relationship itself~ that my friend, is the ultimate betrayal. 

The PA, in essence, is nothing more than a twofold device: (1)All that the following physical activity of a PA does between a cheating couple is to simply cement their scurolous emotional relationship with each other, much the same that a legitimate married couple consumates their emotional relationship with each other, and (2) this very same physical activity between them serves to provide distance from their old marriage partners, in completely laying waste to or denegrating whatever vestiges are left of their old married union.

Emotional betrayal is so much more severe~ because the physical betrayal is just largely a more than predictable symptomatic followup to the emotional one!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

whitehawk said:


> lf she stuck around yea , but hey she's around town with someone else now , why touch it .


If you want a shot with your wife you need to clear the air and confess. If not, well who knows......


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Wazza said:


> If you want a shot with your wife you need to clear the air and confess. If not, well who knows......


Yes. If there is even the slightest possibility that you want to get back together with her, you need to come clean about it all with her. At the same time, if that is your goal, you know that K has to be gone completely from your life as well. It's possible, whitehawk, that your wife told you what she did NOW to test the waters with you...to see if you are even slightly open to reconciliation. It may be that she knows the truth, whether from you talking in your sleep or K telling her (and keeping it secret from you), or someone else who may have witnessed the interaction with K. Your wife may know, and she may want to hear it from you. To test the waters, she came clean to you.... and you kept silent. At any rate, if you do want reconciliation, this would be what you need to do.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Not only come clean to her.

You need to apologize to your wife.

I know it sounds weird because she is with some OM.

But Hawk you let your wife down in a big way.

She did too with the lack of communication but you really did a number on her with K in your own home.

SO drop the anger. 

Tell her your new revelations after your soul searching and tell her you are sorry.

You both need to start being honest with each other even if you are only coparents.

You both have to start somewhere...........

HM64
PS
Read this thread.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/24796-just-let-them-go.html


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

How did she meet the OM ? who is he?


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> Yes the OM is doing something very wrong as well. Unfortunately we live in a society where anything goes and many believe that it's ok to exploit any crack in a marriage.


As K was obviously doing with yours.


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## Calibre12 (Nov 27, 2012)

Wh, no offense but I think your biggest dilemma is letting go of 50% or letting go of K's ass. You are seeing RED when you see the OM as the new CEO of your wife's half, but you have no problem investing her half into K's ass.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Calibre12 (Nov 27, 2012)

You and your wife divorced each other at least a year ago. Time to put it on paper, split the assets down the middle and walk away. There is too much $ involved which ups the ante for a big, gigantic FALSE R on both of your parts. 

BTW there is absolutely no way a man and woman who are 50% drunk (versus 75%-100% drunk - that would mean can't have sex...period or a slobbering, can't find the entrance scene) would stop at genital touching after man sends tactile genital message and woman receives it well, that penetration did not occur. 

Alcohol removes inhibitions so obviously you were only 1/2 drunk, so 50% aware of your conscious decisions and actions. So no, you can't blame it on the alcohol. Take some responsibility, asset sharing is in order, and I don't mean K's.

I do want to say I am sorry for what's in the future though. Might as well flush your $ down the toilet if you pick up K, even if it's 3 years down the road. She's already shown you what she is going to do to you...You might be the one in the room crying when she thinks nothing of being in the living room curled up with a kinda friend of yours, whose hand may slip into her pants AGAIN and despite your infrequent protests. I think though that things may work out a little better for your wife. The worst case scenario is that wife's OM gets 1/2 and K's eventual OM gets the rest of your hard earned. That being said, have you checked out the net worth of wife's OM? If he's same or wealthier, or more educated than you, you may not have to worry too much. Too, you see, K (as in klassless) came into your house and blatantly disrespected your wife and daughter with your permission.


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> I agree with you, SN, to some extent. I think it's a matter of degree almost.
> 
> WH indulged his attraction to the OW for a very long period of time in his own home with his W there. He admits to very strong feelings for her, and attraction. He actually preferred to be with her and was glad when his W exited to go to sleep. It got physical - again, in his home, with his W there. Again, for a very long time.
> 
> ...


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

So after all this discussion, whitehawk, do you still have enough love for your W to want a reconciliation if she would consider it?

Or is this really completely done and you're just doing a post mortem for your own peace of mind?


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## Kallan Pavithran (Jan 17, 2012)

She is having a revenge A, I dont believe that this will do any good in R.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> So after all this discussion, whitehawk, *do you still have enough love for your W to want a reconciliation if she would consider it?*
> 
> Or is this really completely done and you're just doing a post mortem for your own peace of mind?


:iagree:

This is the real question........


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## Calibre12 (Nov 27, 2012)

That's the point, K is still in his picture. _"Hmm , l did offer to never see K again..."_ - Wishy, washy - Translated: "Only if I have to." He is not remorseful enough to kick K to the curb - *in front *of his wife. And even if he gets the courage to do it now, what would be the motivation? Since he has not done it on his own free will/volition before, it will appear staged to his wife if he does it now, as a means of protecting his own financial self interests. 

Hats off to this man's wife, she is unequivocally NO idiot...There is not one idiot bone in her body. 

You are going to have to move a mountain to get her back and by the looks of it you would rather stick to your liability.


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## Calibre12 (Nov 27, 2012)

A real man goes down with his ship. He doesn't have a life preserver stashed away for himself, while everyone else drowns.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

There's been a lot of speculation about why your W didn't demand that you stop with your OW, why she suffered in relative silence and then pulled the plug.

I've thought about this a bit & would suggest that it's a confluence of factors, especially the fact that your A was happening in real time in front of her.

The whole thing starts the way it should between a married couple - your W is working on a schedule that means she is tired and needs to sleep at certain times, so you care for her by understanding that and helping her get her sleep. You have worked hard and nonstop for a number of years, and now your W wants you to have some fun and relaxation in your life after all your work; she gives you her blessing to let your hair down.

But she doesn't fall asleep right away at night and she quickly starts to 'hear' your developing feelings for the OW, She hears it in your words, in OW's words, in your laugh, in your tone and the eagerness of your interactions. She is alarmed, hurt, angry.

Your W is a nurse and as such has to be a practical, realistic person to some degree. So, instead of drawing a line in the sand with you and OW, she makes what she considers a realistic assessment: She admits to herself that you are in love with someone else. She considers her case hopeless in this respect. She does not want to force you back into the marriage emotionally because she has no interest in having a husband who is there out of duty only. So, she decides she has to move on, however painful that is.

Moving on takes time, though, especially since she is now feeling such despair and depression. Listening to you night after night is a constant torture that convinces her more and more that you are lost to her. Again, there's no going back for her because she doesn't want you to stay with her out of obligation.

So, she gets help. She gets stronger and finds a way to say you two are over. The OM probably hears this story and thinks you are the worst sort of cad. No doubt there's something of the white knight in him with your W.

And then, once she is strong enough to stand on her own, she lets you have it. If you have any desire for R, I think you would have to convince her that she was wrong about your being in love with the OW.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> There's been a lot of speculation about why your W didn't demand that you stop with your OW, why she suffered in relative silence and then pulled the plug.
> 
> I've thought about this a bit & would suggest that it's a confluence of factors, especially the fact that your A was happening in real time in front of her.
> 
> ...


I was not sure that the wife said nothing. I more had the impression that whatever she said, WhiteHawk wasn't listening. There's been some discussion over whether she was forceful enough, but to be honest "you are married to me, stop focussing on this other woman" isn't a message that should need a whole lot of discussion!

As for OM, well I think he has been unfairly pilloried here. I think it is clear that the wife made her decision thn spoke to him and communicated that she was done with the marriage. Under those circumstances, I don't see dating as unreasonable. The notion that he exploited a weakness to take wife away is, in my view, nonsense. There was one male clearly acting without regard for the marriage, and it wasn't the OM.

Sorry if this is harsh.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Wazza said:


> There's been some discussion over whether she was forceful enough, but to be honest "you are married to me, stop focussing on this other woman" isn't a message that should need a whole lot of discussion!
> 
> As for OM, well I think he has been unfairly pilloried here. I think it is clear that the wife made her decision thn spoke to him and communicated that she was done with the marriage. Under those circumstances, I don't see dating as unreasonable. The notion that he exploited a weakness to take wife away is, in my view, nonsense. There was one male clearly acting without regard for the marriage, and it wasn't the OM.


I don't have the impression that she gave him an ultimatum that he didn't listen to. I gleaned that they talked about it, but she was basically telling him that things were OK, maybe complaining a bit. My sense is that she made up her mind that he was 'gone' already & saw no point to an ultimatum.

I agree with you on the OM. Completely.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> I don't have the impression that she gave him an ultimatum that he didn't listen to. I gleaned that they talked about it, but she was basically telling him that things were OK, maybe complaining a bit. My sense is that she made up her mind that he was 'gone' already & saw no point to an ultimatum.
> 
> I agree with you on the OM. Completely.


Probably. But should it have needed to come to an ultimatum?

When my wife was having her affair I never issued an ultimatum, because I had assurance after assurance that things didn't happen, or that it was over.....there was really no point to discussion at that point because her word was worthless. So what was the point of issuing an ultimatum, just to get a commitment I would not believe?


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Probably. But should it have needed to come to an ultimatum?
> 
> When my wife was having her affair I never issued an ultimatum, because I had assurance after assurance that things didn't happen, or that it was over.....there was really no point to discussion at that point because her word was worthless. So what was the point of issuing an ultimatum, just to get a commitment I would not believe?


Actually, I think this is one of the more surreal threads here precisely because the BW was listening in on the A as it unfolded. This is why I think it plays out very differently. I think the W in this case just listened to the two of them and very quickly gave up because her heart was broken and she didn't want to fight for a man she thought was in love with another woman. (It shouldn't have come to an ultimatum because the WH should have figured things out, but for her part, she saw an ultimatum or real confrontation as useless very early on in this drama.)

You say that your W's word at the time was worthless, but here there's not a question of lying or covering or sins of omission because the WH is doing things openly and in earshot of his BW. It's a Rashomon scenario where each spouse is on the scene and interpreting the same data in a different way. Of course, though, WH will admit when he's candid that he is/was probably in love with the OW, so the BW was correct in her desperate judgment.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> Actually, I think this is one of the more surreal threads here precisely because the BW was listening in on the A as it unfolded. This is why I think it plays out very differently. I think the W in this case just listened to the two of them and very quickly gave up because her heart was broken and she didn't want to fight for a man she thought was in love with another woman. (It shouldn't have come to an ultimatum because the WH should have figured things out, but for her part, she saw an ultimatum or real confrontation as useless very early on in this drama.)
> 
> You say that your W's word at the time was worthless, but here there's not a question of lying or covering or sins of omission because the WH is doing things openly and in earshot of his BW. It's a Rashomon scenario where each spouse is on the scene and interpreting the same data in a different way. Of course, though, WH will admit when he's candid that he is/was probably in love with the OW, so the BW was correct in her desperate judgment.


"Nothing physical" was a lie. There is every possibility that the wife either witnessed something or was informed by someone who had.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Wazza said:


> "Nothing physical" was a lie. There is every possibility that the wife either witnessed something or was informed by someone who had.


I agree with you, but OP came here completely deluded that what he had was an EA because he didn't have intercourse with her. We know it was a PA, but he appears not to have thought he was lying or betraying his W.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> I agree with you, but OP came here completely deluded that what he had was an EA because he didn't have intercourse with her. We know it was a PA, but he appears not to have thought he was lying or betraying his W.


I think OP understands that it was a PA now.................

And I am sure his silence is because he realizes how hurtful his actions truly were to his wife and marriage.

Maybe he will come back and share his thoughts with us.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

He's already acknowledged it. My point was about how the wife is seeing it if he has not acknowledged to her.


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## Calibre12 (Nov 27, 2012)

Forgive me for hitting you really hard whitehawk, but I had to try getting you to think really hard.


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

jameskimp said:


> You wide sounds very passive aggressive. She didn't say a peep until she had her new man huh?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> I agree with you, but OP came here completely deluded that what he had was an EA because he didn't have intercourse with her. We know it was a PA, but he appears not to have thought he was lying or betraying his W.



In most that's true , because l felt l resisted mostly . l didn't run off , leave my wife . l didn't sleep with her , l just had some fun and not only with her we were all having fun but - a bit too much of course, it went too far with her and l'd begun thinking this will have to stop .
l felt l'd still come home every night so to speak , hadn't slept with anyone.


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> I worked with a man some years ago who suddenly was dropping the ball at work & when I asked if things were alright, he told me that he was fighting cancer. He said that he was fighting alone because his wife was in a new job that she was really engrossed in; it was exciting for her and he was very depressed and didn't want to rain on her parade. I urged him to talk to her, but as he got more and more depressed, everything went to h3ll for him. He had to change jobs within the company to help with the stress and a schedule that gave him time for treatment.
> 
> Finally, when he started to lose his hair, his wife noticed that something was wrong. This was as long as six months after he told me about his illness. She was shocked that he was so sick and he hadn't told her. He was so sad and weak that he didn't care anymore what she thought. All he could say to me the last time I saw him was, "She never noticed. How could she not have noticed? I think somewhere in me I kept hoping she would put me ahead of her work and at least notice, but she never did." She tried to help at that point, but I think the damage was done in his head. And I thought at the time that a great part of his motivation for keeping silent in the end was that he was subconsciously testing her commitment to him. The more she didn't notice, the more resolute he became in his belief that she just didn't care enough.
> 
> You never noticed that your W was so depressed. Her lack of communication is on her, but your not seeing it is on you. Your relationship with the OW began and developed in this dysfunction, deceit, and hurt. If you take the advice given by a few here to now feel free to try things with your OW, I think you have almost zero chance of a happy outcome, either with her or with any reconciliation possibilities for the future with your W.



Yep , my wife was always a tester !
Yeah should have dug more but l'd dug for 18yrs with her , l did still dig though and she did tell me , over and over the opposite ! 18 yrs of double dutch gets very irritating believe me.
Plus she was a nurse and very clever at hiding emotions .


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

alte Dame said:


> I think the W in this case just listened to the two of them and very quickly gave up because her heart was broken and she didn't want to fight for a man she thought was in love with another woman.


 In addition to the above, I think that the wife feared that if she confronted, that the husband would pick the affair partner. We see this fear many times on this site. Based on this fear, they hope that if they ride it out in silence pretending not to notice, that the affair will end on its own. In this case, the affair went on for so long that the wife gave up waiting and moved on. That is her right, as there was was no love left in her for her husband.

This is a sad story. There are no winners, just losers.


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

TRy said:


> His wife was disrespected and emotionally abused in her own home by both her husband and the affair partner. What the husband did was jut plain cruel. She cried herself to sleep every night for a year and not surprisingly was paralyzed from acting by depression. He had both an emotional and a physical affair with his affair partner while both she and her children were there in the same home.
> 
> She drafted a letter telling the husband that the marriage was over and that she was separating from him 6 weeks before she separated. She first started to communicate with the other man 3 weeks after she drafted the letter, in other words after she made the decsion that after a year of abuse she was ending the marraige. I am sorry, I find it hard to blame her for her actions in light of the extenuating circumstances.




Yeah , and especially after so many here basically agreeing . l fkd up so badly and hurt her sooo much - is basically where l find myself every time now.
She was wrong in using someone else at a time like that but at the same time - she'd gone through what she had and thought l was long gone anyway and in love with K.

She couldn't believe l was such a mess about the separation and wanted to save the marriage. She said the 6 wks was on her part , for her . She didn't think l'd care less and left her even before K.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

So how do you feel about your W now?


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

Acabado said:


> I makes sense. Why didn't you ask her what the hell she meant with that letter? Was it just self serving BS?
> Will she will tell you what's going on in her head from now on? Why, What's the goal? You don't need it NOW! You needed it before? You can't be her confidant after she left for another OM and is openly dating him.
> 
> What the hell did she mean?
> ...



Thanks Aca.
Yeah well that's what l thought . l did reply and talked a bit about what she'd written but no l didn't even bother asking why now or what she meant with it.
l dunno , think l basically was annoyed at what - NOW , and thought bit fg late .
Mybe l should have but every time so far l'd thought or hoped she was reaching for something - every time it was oh no - her minds still made up . l didn't feel like hearing that again at the time.

She gave me the sep' letter as a way of telling me she was ready and wanted to separate . That's aso when she told me what she'd been going through.
So for her we were then separated . We had to keep living at the home together for 6 more wks until we had the money for her or me to move out. She moved out in the end because l worl from home and also have to finish the house.
Hours and hours of talking over that next 6 wks, l tried and tried to to save us but her mind was made up.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Hawk

Did you ever tell her you were sorry???


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> So after all this discussion, whitehawk, do you still have enough love for your W to want a reconciliation if she would consider it?
> 
> Or is this really completely done and you're just doing a post mortem for your own peace of mind?




l'd love us to get back together Dame , l still love her as much as l ever did at the end of the day. We were a fantastic couple and then there's my daughter but we lost our way with lifes struggles waring us down and it seems she's out, l'm sure so !

So yeah , l did still though need to work out my anger at OM , the degree of my place in what's happened , all that .
Which from everyone here looks as big as it gets.


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Probably. But should it have needed to come to an ultimatum?
> 
> When my wife was having her affair I never issued an ultimatum, because I had assurance after assurance that things didn't happen, or that it was over.....there was really no point to discussion at that point because her word was worthless. So what was the point of issuing an ultimatum, just to get a commitment I would not believe?



^^ No she didn't give me one . She was a proud girl , she'd rather curl over than admit to feeling threatened by another girl . Don't ask me how that works but that's just how they built her.
When ever l asked her though if she mind if l stayed up or is she ok , every time she told me she's fine go for your life.

K never even came up once until the sep letter . She certainly got a mention or two in that though.
Although W did storm in a few times and roared at us all to go to bed - but of course that was a roar at me to come to bed NOW, and for K to f'k the f'k off . But l didn't listen.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

MattMatt said:


> Which hurts most? A drunken ONS or an EA that is deliberately entered into, which last for months or years?
> 
> I think the latter.


Perhaps.

Having been in an EA I would say a ONS is a more blatant betrayal in that there is not the emotional bond of a close friendship that builds up the brain chemicals. A ONS is an intentional blatant selfish betrayal. It is one thing to get unintentionally too close / attached to someone and another to put your penis in another womans vagina. 

But iit like asking which leg do you want cut off. So they are both unacceptable.

For me personally I could deal with my wife being in an early EA but could never forgive any kind of PA, ONS or not. A deep EA, I would not consider an R.

I have been plenty drunk in my life on occasions but never so drunk I could not control whether I had sex with someone. Many people like to get drunk and flirty because they like the thrill of being on the edge of cheating. Eventually they indulge.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

whitehawk said:


> ^^ No she didn't give me one . She was a proud girl , she'd rather curl over than admit to feeling threatened by another girl . Don't ask me how that works but that's just how they built her.
> When ever l asked her though if she mind if l stayed up or is she ok , every time she told me she's fine go for your life.
> 
> K never even came up once until the sep letter . She certainly got a mention or two in that though.
> Although W did storm in a few times and roared at us all to go to bed - but of course that was a roar at me to come to bed NOW, and for K to f'k the f'k off . But l didn't listen.


To bad. She should have told you it was unacceptable and if you did not like that then for you to get out.

That was the chance for your marriage to be saved.

Oh well. Live and learn. Next time you know better.


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

RightfulRiskTaker said:


> That's the point, K is still in his picture. _"Hmm , l did offer to never see K again..."_ - Wishy, washy - Translated: "Only if I have to." He is not remorseful enough to kick K to the curb - *in front *of his wife. And even if he gets the courage to do it now, what would be the motivation? Since he has not done it on his own free will/volition before, it will appear staged to his wife if he does it now, as a means of protecting his own financial self interests.
> 
> Hats off to this man's wife, she is unequivocally NO idiot...There is not one idiot bone in her body.
> 
> You are going to have to move a mountain to get her back and by the looks of it you would rather stick to your liability.


No K didn't even come up , ever , once . Until the s letter.

But l told her point blank then well, we'll never have her here again , l'll never see her again . Made no difference .
But if she's been here since what difference does it make now. W been with OM for mths by then and made her choice so !


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

RightfulRiskTaker said:


> Forgive me for hitting you really hard whitehawk, but I had to try getting you to think really hard.




No worries , l came here to work this through , it was never going to be pretty . Thanks for your help btw.

Someone just borrowed the pc si l haven't been able to get back.


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

happyman64 said:


> I think OP understands that it was a PA now.................
> 
> And I am sure his silence is because he realizes how hurtful his actions truly were to his wife and marriage.
> 
> Maybe he will come back and share his thoughts with us.



Thanks hm . Someone just borrowed the pc but yeah , l certainly realize it now , just wish l could wind back time.


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

happyman64 said:


> Hawk
> 
> Did you ever tell her you were sorry???



Dozens of times and that if only she'd have said something , talked.


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> So how do you feel about your W now?



l still love her and l'd get back yesterday, we'd be fine in time if OM was out 100% and it looks like l deserved that one so. 

Can lead a horse to water though !


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> To bad. She should have told you it was unacceptable and if you did not like that then for you to get out.
> 
> That was the chance for your marriage to be saved.
> 
> Oh well. Live and learn. Next time you know better.




Yeah , maybe that's what her letter about being upfront with me from now on , the other night , was referring too !

Still don't see why it matters now though , maybe part of her roller coaster and peace .


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

whitehawk said:


> ^^ No she didn't give me one . She was a proud girl , she'd rather curl over than admit to feeling threatened by another girl . Don't ask me how that works but that's just how they built her.
> When ever l asked her though if she mind if l stayed up or is she ok , every time she told me she's fine go for your life.
> 
> K never even came up once until the sep letter . She certainly got a mention or two in that though.
> Although W did storm in a few times and roared at us all to go to bed - but of course that was a roar at me to come to bed NOW, and for K to f'k the f'k off . But l didn't listen.


You don't understand women very well. "I'm fine" are the scariet words on the planet!


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

I can give another perspective on how the communication between a married couple might breakdown under these circumstances.

I feel as if my exH got caught up in an EA or one sided EA with his friend's wife. She could do no wrong. My ex would hold me to higher standards than he held her. For example, the woman could repeat stories ad infinitum, my ex would laugh each time. If I ever made the mistake to repeat something even once, I'd get the cutting "so you told me." You get the picture......

I didn't get good feelings from this woman so I had a one on one talk with my ex. How well do you know this woman? Do you trust her? Why do you feel the need to do this or that for her?.....

The results? He later on admitted that that conversation made him want to be even nicer and accommodating to her to compensate for my PRIVATELY stated feelings. Forgive me for assuming that I could be honest with my husband.

Because this male friend of my husband came from a "good" family (you know how the English are) my (ex)MIL was keen to meet her. I suspect two things were going on here. One, that my exMIL had been wanting to befriend this family for a while and may have thought using the new wife / DIL as her entry point. And also, that since I and her son were newly married, she may have had the sense of I'll show her who's boss.

My exH and exMIL made plans to invite this couple to her house in the country for the weekend. No discussion with me whatsoever. That was when I was easy going, so my attitude was, fine we spend the weekend together.

My exMIL took complete control of the weekend. She and this wife left the house in a car without inviting me to join them. She had already planned that she would take all 6 of us to dinner (my exSIL was there too.) 

any attempt to join in conversation over the weekend was completely ignored. There are times what when you don't want to speak to someone, you just simply don't hear there. Or may hope, either consciously or subconsciously that if you make it difficult to be heard they will give up trying. or worse, you may just get the vacuous stare. Ever notice how some people in a group have to repeat themselves to be heard. Others may even make the slightest gesture and have others' full attention.

And yes over the weekend, I did go to bed early......... 

Short of sending someone a memo and having them sign that they have read it, I mean really, how can a partner prove that they attempted to communicate with you......


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## Jasel (Jan 8, 2013)

I think you're focusing too much on the OM. He's not the problem. It sounds like your wife just wanted to be away from you more than she wanted to be with someone else. And I doubt if he was out of the picture it would make your situation any better. One thing you need to do is stop worrying about him. You can only control and be responsible for yourself and your own actions. Not hers or his.

I have another question, I didn't read through all these posts so I'm sorry if it's already been asked/answered.

When did you definitively decide that you want your wife back? Because it sounds like you were ambiguous to the entire thing right up until you found out she was seeing someone else.

Which sounds similar to my friend. Been with his gf, living together for 4 years, he basically checked out of the relationship 6 - 8 months ago. Didn't treat her nearly as well as he should have, just really emotionally distant. Then he finds out she's cheating on him with some other guy, and after all the complaining I've been listening to for the better part of a year about how he wanted out of the relationship, suddenly he doesn't want to let her go.


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## Hopefull363 (Feb 13, 2012)

Whitehawk if you want your wife back and the other man out of the picture FIGHT FOR HER. You didn't fight for her when you were courting K and you are not fighting for her now. Start courting her. Show her she's worth fighting for. That may be the reason she's done. She doesn't want to spend the rest of her life with someone who thinks she's not worth it.

I also think your wife should have kicked K out of the house and your life. She should have fought for you. I think both of you are afraid of being rejected. If you love her fight for her, if not then walk away and wonder what might have been if you did.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Hopefull363 said:


> Whitehawk if you want your wife back and the other man out of the picture FIGHT FOR HER. You didn't fight for her when you were courting K and you are not fighting for her now. Start courting her. Show her she's worth fighting for. That may be the reason she's done. She doesn't want to spend the rest of her life with someone who thinks she's not worth it.
> 
> I also think your wife should have kicked K out of the house and your life. She should have fought for you. I think both of you are afraid of being rejected. If you love her fight for her, if not then walk away and wonder what might have been if you did.


I agree that you could keep fighting if you were clear that that's what you want. 6 weeks of trying to convince her isn't much in the big scheme of things. What we haven't heard is what she says to you about any love she still might have for you. Has she told you that you killed it with your A?

No matter, I suppose, if you really feel it is done. Is your anger changing now that you are processing the opinions of other people on your situation?


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

Jasel said:


> I think you're focusing too much on the OM. He's not the problem. It sounds like your wife just wanted to be away from you more than she wanted to be with someone else. And I doubt if he was out of the picture it would make your situation any better. One thing you need to do is stop worrying about him. You can only control and be responsible for yourself and your own actions. Not hers or his.
> 
> ** Thanks Jasel , yeah maybe . lt's just l'll be seeing them and l have to deal with her so l need to find some kind of peace with that .
> 
> ...



^^ But 4 yrs is so different to 18 . People go through a lot of cycles in 18yrs , that's what this was.


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

Hopefull363 said:


> Whitehawk if you want your wife back and the other man out of the picture FIGHT FOR HER. You didn't fight for her when you were courting K and you are not fighting for her now. Start courting her. Show her she's worth fighting for. That may be the reason she's done. She doesn't want to spend the rest of her life with someone who thinks she's not worth it.
> 
> I also think your wife should have kicked K out of the house and your life. She should have fought for you. I think both of you are afraid of being rejected. If you love her fight for her, if not then walk away and wonder what might have been if you did.



You would have missed the post but l fort for her for 2 mths before she left, nothing l could do. 
l'm not fighting for her now , what while she's running round with om- forget it, she's cancelled all that .

Besides, she's still so out there, unreachable , you wouldn't even recognize her .


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

Zanne said:


> So true, NextTimeAround. And it sounds as if the OP's wife made a few scenes by barging in and yelling at them to go to bed. They probably laughed at her behind her back because she was a party pooper. It may have even created an "us against her" situation which drove her further away.



Naa , it wasn't like that. l was really concerned and that's when the light bulb went on., too late . Own fault


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> I agree that you could keep fighting if you were clear that that's what you want. 6 weeks of trying to convince her isn't much in the big scheme of things. What we haven't heard is what she says to you about any love she still might have for you. Has she told you that you killed it with your A?
> 
> No matter, I suppose, if you really feel it is done. Is your anger changing now that you are processing the opinions of other people on your situation?




Thanks Dame . Yeah this has helped so much .

2mths actually , even before the sep letter , through her meeting someone else and then telling me later to boot.
Like the 180 stuff says , too much will push them even further away and that's what happened.
There's nothing you can do past a point when someone gets like that . Believe me l found out all about it.
The pressure on her was also a real concern about then . l was really worried about it all on top of what she'd been through and to then what she was about to embark on . 

She couldn't have taken any more and there's a lot of people here suggesting more, fight ra ra , without grasping the full picture and , not top mention the fact she's seeing someone else,

E
Besides , even bothering at all once some else is on the scene goes against everything they teach here alone doesn't it ? Well there was a hell of a lot more than just him to worry about.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

whitehawk said:


> Thanks Dame . Yeah this has helped so much .
> 
> 2mths actually , even before the sep letter , through her meeting someone else and then telling me later to boot.
> Like the 180 stuff says , too much will push them even further away and that's what happened.
> ...


Actually no.

2 months, 2 years and another man on the scene means very little.

If you love her prove it to her.

Full court press.

You fix the issues within yourself. And you make the fixes permanent. You show your spouse by actions that you are sorry, that you recognize your faults as well as the hurts.

You clearly express your love and your issues. You leave it open that if she desires to work on the marriage issues she dumps the OM and engages you. Until then you fix yourself.

You can become attractive to her again, you can become trustworthy again but it takes hard work, hard actions and honesty with one self.

Read Rookies thread about his exwife. It took 2 years before he was willing to re-engage his exwife. 

But they both still loved each other and she was remorseful for her actions.

The question is do you have what it takes to be that better man?

And does your wife still love you?

Me thinks yes.......

But only you really know.

HM64


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

happyman64 said:


> Actually no.
> 
> 2 months, 2 years and another man on the scene means very little.
> 
> ...


:iagree:

You did a huge amount of damage, but as you said, 18 years is a long time. You've also said that you still love her. And your OW, no matter how alluring she is, is not a decent human being for what she did. You have an entire year of feelings invested in her, but I will wager that you know that those feelings are deeply tainted. If you go with the OW, I doubt you will be able to feel good about yourself as a man.

Are you with your OW now? Are you seeing her?


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## LastUnicorn (Jul 10, 2012)

whitehawk said:


> ^^ No she didn't give me one . She was a proud girl , she'd rather curl over than admit to feeling threatened by another girl . Don't ask me how that works but that's just how they built her.
> When ever l asked her though if she mind if l stayed up or is she ok , every time she told me she's fine go for your life.
> 
> K never even came up once until the sep letter . She certainly got a mention or two in that though.
> Although W did storm in a few times and roared at us all to go to bed - but of course that was a roar at me to come to bed NOW, and for K to f'k the f'k off . But l didn't listen.


Your self contained, in control of her emotions wife tried to tell you. You were having too much fun to listen though. 



whitehawk said:


> No K didn't even come up , ever , once . Until the s letter.
> 
> But l told her point blank then well, we'll never have her here again , l'll never see her again . Made no difference .
> But if she's been here since what difference does it make now. W been with OM for mths by then and made her choice so !


No, you made the choice for her. You told her for months where she rated in your heart. 



whitehawk said:


> Dozens of times and that if only she'd have said something , talked.


This is bull, through and through. You are saying because she didn't come out and tell you 'please stop fingering another woman in our home' that SHE is at fault for your behavior. Because she didn't say anything. 



whitehawk said:


> ^^ But 4 yrs is so different to 18 . People go through a lot of cycles in 18yrs , that's what this was.


So your affair is something normal in all marriages that your devoted wife should have just weathered out?



whitehawk said:


> Naa , it wasn't like that. l was really concerned and that's when the light bulb went on., too late . Own fault


White hawk this wasn't just a betrayal, you tortured your wife. In her home, the one place on earth that she imagined she was safe. And as she watched her husband turn into someone she didn't recognize, someone who came to bed reeking of lust and of another woman. I am pretty sure it wasn't a stiff upper lip that kept her silent for so long. It was shock and the unreality of the situation. Her questioning herself that surely to god this was NOT happening, and in her own home, under her roof, just a few rooms away.

You proved to her what she meant to you, and it wasn't much at all. Now you want to cry foul because she found someone to console her? Have you bothered consoling her yet?
It seems you are too busy blame shifting to realize the enormous hurt you did to your wife. And the disservice you are continuing to do to her by blaming her for your actions.


White hawk said:


> Besides , even bothering at all once some else is on the scene goes against everything they teach here alone doesn't it ? Well there was a hell of a lot more than just him to worry about.


 The ironies here are so incredibly sad.


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## Hopefull363 (Feb 13, 2012)

You said you fought for your wife for two months. How did you fight? Did you apologize? Did you own up to what you did? Did you show extreme remorse? Did you stop blame shifting? Did you show her in actions as well as words that you love her and only her? Did you promise her that you would never cheat again? Did you attempt to do all of the heavy lifting in the marriage since you are the one that betrayed her first? Did you ask her to go to counseling? Did you really fight for her? Even now you say it's too late she's with another man. What about when you where with another woman? You just gave up on her and your marriage. She's probably better off with the other man.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

whitehawk said:


> You would have missed the post but l fort for her for 2 mths before she left, nothing l could do.
> l'm not fighting for her now , what while she's running round with om- forget it, she's cancelled all that .
> 
> Besides, she's still so out there, unreachable , you wouldn't even recognize her .


Well, maybe this will help. I am going to be a tad blunt.

You came here looking for help and understanding about an EA. You didn't realize you were wrong about the devastation of an EA, you actually had NO CLUE you also engaged in a PA even if there was no penetrative sex. 

Follow me?

Now let's look at your wife's possible perspective.
She was depressed.
She was not communicating well.
She yelled at you and OW on various occasions.
She stayed in her room.

SHe brought all of these things up, showed you through actions and you ignored them until you separated. Yes, I hate signals too, but they were present and as a signifigant other non-verbal cues do exist. When she yelled at you, you should have sent OW home and went right in that bedroom and tried your best to talk. When she completely withdrew, you should have been helping her find a doctor.

Now, if this was over a year period, coupled with you not understanding you were in a EA that evolved into a PA, do you understand that in her eyes you really didn't fight for anything?

2 months doesn't magically negate 16 months of a bad relationship. Especially, if your actions and understanding keep you in the same place.


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## Calibre12 (Nov 27, 2012)

I feel like we are trying to convince you to go after your wife. I honestly believe now that you don't want your wife but might still want the marriage. Sounds like you are still too mushy on K and too finger-pointy on your wife. So I am back to my original point...Your decision is K, you are just trying to figure out how to keep cake-eating with K, so that you don't lose 50% of your assets in a divorce. You might very well be angry just because OM has thrown a wrench in the cake. I do not believe you want your wife back, not for the right reasons at least.


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

happyman64 said:


> Actually no.
> 
> 2 months, 2 years and another man on the scene means very little.
> 
> ...



Thanks but .
Apart from everything else l've said , she doesn't even love me anymore anyway - she is not interested , she's done , kaput and into someone else!
l don't even know with her either now , she's a different person now and although I hurt her a lot , when I realized I stopped and I wanted to save our marriage - back then . 
But to me she quit , yeah I know she was hurt but she still quit when i was ready to work and save us - and walked off with someone else.
It tore the family apart , my daughter , 5yrs of grief and damn hard work but she didn't care.
She's a different person now and I'd also have major trust issues after all that.

l would have liked to before , but I think it's done . Just because this couple make it back doesn't mean the next couple do, it doesn't matter what l'd like .


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

RightfulRiskTaker said:


> I feel like we are trying to convince you to go after your wife. I honestly believe now that you don't want your wife but might still want the marriage. Sounds like you are still too mushy on K and too finger-pointy on your wife. So I am back to my original point...Your decision is K, you are just trying to figure out how to keep cake-eating with K, so that you don't lose 50% of your assets in a divorce. You might very well be angry just because OM has thrown a wrench in the cake. I do not believe you want your wife back, not for the right reasons at least.



Nah . that stuffs sorted.
But as l said above , l did want to save us but well , just take a look at the other reply but thanks all the same. 
K , who knows but not right now. But if l did want to right now no l wouldn't be stuffing around the way your suggesting - what the hell for , l'd just go for it pure and simple


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> :iagree:
> 
> You did a huge amount of damage, but as you said, 18 years is a long time. You've also said that you still love her. And your OW, no matter how alluring she is, is not a decent human being for what she did. You have an entire year of feelings invested in her, but I will wager that you know that those feelings are deeply tainted. If you go with the OW, I doubt you will be able to feel good about yourself as a man.
> 
> Are you with your OW now? Are you seeing her?


No , l've had enough problems through all this to involve more. 
But yeah , l did want my wife and marriage back then but , well it's in the other reply.

But the thread , you and all the input has helped me sort what l've needed to to find some peace and go on with life and our dealings from here, that's what it was about.

Thanks to you Dame and to many others.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

That might be best. Make sure you learn from this marriage and make yourself a better person. Nope, not trying to assess who was more right or wrong, just saying keep moving along and get better.


Good luck.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

whitehawk said:


> Thanks but , l don't know how many other ways l can say it.
> Apart from everything else l've said , she doesn't even love me anymore anyway - she is not interested , she's done , finito , kaput and into someone else!
> l don't even know with her either now , she's a different person now
> 
> l would have liked to before , but it's done . Just because this couple make it back doesn't mean the next couple do, it doesn't matter what l'd like .


Respectfully

If you think that then you are clueless.

Rome was not built in a day.

Actions speak louder than words.

But you do what you think is best for you.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Good luck, whitehawk.

They say things happen for a reason, but I don't believe it.


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> That might be best. Make sure you learn from this marriage and make yourself a better person. Nope, not trying to assess who was more right or wrong, just saying keep moving along and get better.
> 
> 
> Good luck.



Thanks for that Philly and yep , I've got no choice anyway but to move on. 
But in going through this with you guys I feel I can at least do it with everything in it's right place now , for my head anyway ! That's one hell of a lot healthier than where I was a wk ago.

And who knows anyway , maybe later on we drift back together after much sole searching and coming to terms , separated couples do it everyday - or maybe we move on but at least it's in some kind of peace.


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

happyman64 said:


> Respectfully
> 
> If you think that then you are clueless.
> 
> ...



Thanks happy , but you can't say that to every couple that split up for whatever reason or there's be no divorces, sometimes people just don't want to or just can't find a way back . 
Please pm me and go into detail as to why you think l'm clueless on this and to why you think mine is so different to all the others that just can't find their way back .
I want to know why your so hell bent on thinking this way without really knowing my wife , seeing her now or us and after everything I have told you .

Maybe you are onto something , maybe your just a romantic , or maybe you haven't read the fine print , dunno . 
But hey feel free to enlighten me because if there's a better way than this I'm all ears .
I'd love to see wife's face with you saying this though , you might change your tune I think !
I do know I'm not willing to give up years trying only to be hurt even more and while watching her running around with someone else. "That's" not right, that's no better than what I did . 

But please , pm me and tell what I'm missing here !


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> Good luck, whitehawk.
> 
> They say things happen for a reason, but I don't believe it.


Thanks so much Dame and for all your help and persistence .
Yeah they do say that don't they , so you don't think there's anything in it ?
Me I think if things are going along their natural course they will happen as they're meant to . But with any big unnatural interference, as in a break up that didn't have to happen , it was pushed or something like that - I think all bets are off and it throws the lot out the window.
Being here was unnatural for us , I warned her it was way harder than it should have been and that we were pushing against the grain.
I was so scared of what the stress and effort might take out of us .
I even often thought to well , we'll win with it eventually but I don't know what will be left of us by then - and now this has happened !

Anyway , at least I'm free to sell up and move now , I really hated the thought of spending the rest of our days here , it felt all wrong .
Probably would have stuck it out but now that this has happened , on the bright side I don't have to I guess.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

whitehawk said:


> Thanks happy , but you can't say that to every couple that split up for whatever reason or there's be no divorces, sometimes people just don't want to or just can't find a way back .
> Please pm me and go into detail as to why you think l'm clueless on this and to why you think mine is so different to all the others that just can't find their way back .
> I want to know why your so hell bent on thinking this way without really knowing my wife , seeing her now or us and after everything I have told you .
> 
> ...


Not a PM, but I'll answer the questions, though "clueless" was a bit harsh IMO.

You now have a very diffrent understanding of the affair to what you had at the start, and you recognise your crimes were greater than you originally realised.

You therefore must see that you have never had an honest conversation with your wife about this, because if nothing else you have insisted "nothing happened" when it is simply not true. Therefore, your wife, if she has guessed what is going on, still has every reason to see you as someone who cheated on her and lied about it. Therefore not trustworthy and probably not remorseful.

Now, maybe she has moved on and the new guy is "it" or maybe she is heartbroken and he is a diversion, a rebound.

The way to find out is to tell her honestly what happened, apologise, and say you will be there if she wants to try again. And then sit tight for a while...don't date anyone else, just wait. Use the time to work on you. Send her cards for birthdays, valentines day, etc. and give her time. At least a year, since that is how long you spent cheating on her.

Of course this assumes you want her back. I know you have said you don't but I am not sure whether that is true or you are just saying it as a means of coming to terms witi having lost her.mnot trying to tell you what to do, just trying to suggest how you could handle things if you wanted to try.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

whitehawk said:


> Thanks happy , but you can't say that to every couple that split up for whatever reason or there's be no divorces, sometimes people just don't want to or just can't find a way back .
> Please pm me and go into detail as to why you think l'm clueless on this and to why you think mine is so different to all the others that just can't find their way back .
> I want to know why your so hell bent on thinking this way without really knowing my wife , seeing her now or us and after everything I have told you .
> 
> ...


White hawk,

No PM needed.

Stick around here. Read, ponder, listen then act when you are ready.

I do not need to know your wife. Only you.

You add value here. That I know.

You'll see.

But no matter what I wish you the best in your pursuit of happiness. 

And I am no romantic. In fact my wife would laugh if she saw your comment.

But I can predict the future sometimes. Yours will be just fine.

Now make it so!

HM64


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

Yeah look I've been thinking more about this and have been talking to someone here privately and , I'll be doing some reading but !

You know , I'm back to where it really is for me right now on getting it back together and right now think that's total bs.

Yes , I hurt her , a lot . But I realized and I was there doing everything I knew how to do to get us back, save our family and make it up to her but !

What was her answer , meet someone else , tear the family apart and everything we'd worked for , move out and take my daughter with her , break my daughters heart and run around town in front of everyone with someone new and with total disrespect to us both ever since . Sorry - that's bs .
I mean they sit there in the main street sipping coffee , talking to everyone as they come and go , with my daughter in the state she's in and having to go to school and live with these people , me , the lot , from day one of moving out.
You don't wreck your life even further and jump through hoops to get a person that can do that back ! 

But hey , I'll read non the less !

ps , On this there's also one more detail l haven't mentioned. She gave me the sep letter , we had to keep living here though for 6 more wks until she could afford the rental right and for my daughter to adjust.
Well, during that 6 wks she started sneaking out to see him while l looked after our daughter. l even disconnected her car bat' in the end to stop her .
According to her we were separated now so there was nothing wrong with doing that.
And this was while l was trying everything l cou;d to save our marriage.
Plus , she would not see counselors or even consider at least just keep on here at home even if sep rooms while we talked more.
There was only one thing she wanted - to get out and go to him.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Yes, what she did was wrong. WHat you did was wrong too!

Two wrongs never make it right. But she is not at that stage of realization yet. You are.

She will most likely get there. But not for a few months.

You can act hurt because she has the OM.

Or you can say screw it.

I will work on me. I will be the best man I can become.

I will be the the best Dad I can be.

You might attract her back, you might not.

But in the end all of your self improvement will have not been a waste. Because you will be in the best place for you.

Time. Use it well.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

whitehawk said:


> Yeah look I've been thinking more about this and have been talking to someone here privately and , I'll be doing some reading but !
> 
> You know , I'm back to where it really is for me right now on getting it back together and right now think that's total bs.
> 
> ...


Whitehawk I know you are hurting and I worry that I may be twisting the knife. That is not my intent. Me personally, I am anti divorce. After my wife's affair I stayed for the kids. 

That said......if you accept divorce as permissible, what is she supposed to do?

Not leave, not divorce?

Divorce you but not enter into other relationships?

Enter into other relationships but hide them and lie about them?

What exactly is it she has done wrong? Turn it around. Imagine she is in the next room cheating. When you discuss it she insists she is not, and does not stop. This goes on for months. Would you stay? 

If she has hurt you too much, then move on. But nothing you have told us tells me she is a bad woman. Too non-assertive maybe.


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

happyman64 said:


> Yes, what she did was wrong. WHat you did was wrong too!
> 
> Two wrongs never make it right. But she is not at that stage of realization yet. You are.
> 
> ...



Been doing all that since day one happy but not for her , for me and my daughter and to fix there mess we're left with .

But the realization period your talking about is always with me so , l'm going on with the above , not jumping into Ks pants or anyone elses for now , just my mess of a life .
So maybe she gets there maybe she doesn't but l can tell you at 5mths out , she's stronger about it than ever .
L'll also say her new work crowd got into her ear , well one of them asked me out 2 mths later - her best friend there- nice !

And her other new best friend is the ex of one of my mates and she - slept with his life long best friend , when they'd had 3 young daughters , just moved to the area and just bought their first house - lovely lady !

And then there's mr shoulder who has no problem watching and 11 yr old girls family ripped apart or in messing with someone in W's state so you know !

l'm not holding my breath sorry !


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

Even her own mother said she wouldn't blame me if l never want her back - would you ?

Me - well if things were different yes l would but with all this and the changes in her - whom incidentally would have ran any girl acting like this sdo far into the ground only 2-3 yrs ago.

But now she's doing it - so who the hell even is this person , it's not the wife l wanted back ?


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

OK, so you don't want her back.

You don't like watching the person she's become as she openly demonstrates that she's now with another man.

She didn't like watching (actually probably more hearing) the person you became when you were attaching yourself to another woman.

Quid pro quo.

You've both hurt one another. It's not a misery contest, so trying to quantify whose behavior is worse doesn't help. It's very possible that, even though your behavior started all this, that your hurt is just as deep as hers has been. If she wanted revenge in this regard, she seems to have achieved that. But did she? Who knows? Maybe she's just trying to recover her life after being so devastated.

I do know that the number of years you two have invested is not trivial and is not meaningless. You're both hurt and your feelings will evolve as time goes on. What people are saying here is that it's possible for you both to forgive and heal and maybe even find your way back to one another.

Now, though, working on yourself and your own life is a noble goal. I'm glad you're doing that.


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Whitehawk I know you are hurting and I worry that I may be twisting the knife. That is not my intent. Me personally, I am anti divorce. After my wife's affair I stayed for the kids.
> 
> That said......if you accept divorce as permissible, what is she supposed to do?
> 
> ...



Thanks Wazza , cool name btw .
So do you have a happy marriage again now waz ?

Anyway , divorce , yeah that's the way l see it . That's why l can't for the life of me see why so many people round here shout divorce divorce / 
Seems insane , some couples in the separation section ere only one or two -3-4 whatever mths out and everyone's roaring divorce .

Anyway , doubt that'll be any time soon for now but , the way she's acting who knows !

L reckon though waz , l've gone into it enough in the last few pages and in a couple more posts a minute ago , to say what l'm feeling and to me .
But yea l messed up hugely but you even said it right here mate - two wrongs don't make a right !


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> OK, so you don't want her back.
> 
> You don't like watching the person she's become as she openly demonstrates that she's now with another man.
> 
> ...



Thanks Dame and yeah l believe what your saying too, can't do it alone though but in the future who knows . Maybe she looks at her new life and wants to talk . lf l'm still single then l'll be willing to listen that's for sure.
And l'm not comparing misery , all l'm saying is that she's doing what she's doing and it's bs and well , you know the rest.

But l will say l'm not interested in tit for tat either , l'm not doing that, maybe that's what she's doing - no idea .


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

whitehawk said:


> Thanks Wazza , cool name btw .
> So do you have a happy marriage again now waz ?
> 
> Anyway , divorce , yeah that's the way l see it . That's why l can't for the life of me see why so many people round here shout divorce divorce /
> ...


Yes, marriage is happy now...after a lot of work, and a lot of pain.

I don't necessarily think your W did wrong, but I understand why you do. 

Just look after yourself and your kid, ok?


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Yes, marriage is happy now...after a lot of work, and a lot of pain.
> 
> I don't necessarily think your W did wrong, but I understand why you do.
> 
> Just look after yourself and your kid, ok?



Thanks Wazz, l;m happy for you and l'll do my best


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

happyman64 said:


> Yes, what she did was wrong. WHat you did was wrong too!
> 
> Two wrongs never make it right. But she is not at that stage of realization yet. You are.
> 
> ...



Thanks so much Happy


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

Hi again people.

l'm just re reading my way through this all again right now and taking more of it in.

As l just discovered yesterday from a photo date that we separated only 3mths ago not 4 . lt's not very long is it considering , maybe you guys have something.
l haven't been counting you see - no dates or reminders , that's been blocked as they just aren't healthy right now .

l guess that makes things for my W even more so just way too early to expect much of anything yet .
To be honest it's been tough and feels more like 12 mths not 3.

Anyway , l do just wanna thank you all here again. With re reading you were not only very encouraging in whatever direction but above. lt hasn't been a nice lesson but it has been big and necessary .


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

Just an update for anyone that may drop in. I'm afraid it hasn't been good news in the R format.
You did all get me thinking that R might be possible though and once my feelings cleared more I could clearly see that I did still love ex as much as ever and I would have liked us to find our way back.

Unfortunately though , it never got much of a chance to get much further.
I started by being nicer and encouraging any moments and time together. Letting the chit chat flow sort of first up just trying to relax again you could say , trying to forget any anger and om's .
All was going really well and we were texting and phoning a lot , sometimes for hrs.
Until , one night we were text/chatting til 3am , it'd been going for hrs and we talked about all kinds of stuff .
The difference in us was really miraculous and know I was really enjoying this night that's for sure.
But , she was on a different page - way different , see this is how it is trying to deal with where she's at .
At 3am after hrs of that , she sends one through saying it's time she was upfront with me and it would be better for my D also. Then she goes on to tell me how happy she is now with om but feels guilty because my D hasn't been able to mention him around me !
Well , heart ripped out again , fireworks in weeks to follow , he shouldn't even be around my D yet , she can't even comprehend us yet and has been having bad anxiety attacks trying to cope.
The next weekend I turn up to pick D up and ex and om are sitting out on the deck together - wtf !
Heart ripped out again . Then when I brought her back 2days later he was still there.
Anyway at least he's not around her anymore now . I had no idea he'd been staying around my daughter so soon, blew a major gasket . Rang up child specialists , spoke to people , researched children and separation and threatened to go for full custody if she didn't keep him the fk away from her. It's suppose to be min 12 mths but they all recommend 2 yrs and even then , only if the new persons tried , tested and it will be a long term loving new relationship.
Much upheaval and disgust , a wk later she rang up to say he won't be around her again for a long long time.

Dust settles and a few weeks later I find a big mushy Valentines card up on the mantel over there , in full view of my daughter and anyone that came and go , me included. It would have been picked up by my D and read a dozen times and probably all her friends too.

So , I'm afraid the R ideal isn't looking too good.

Yet at the same time apart from that few weeks where it got real ugly , ex has been major chatty , helpful , especially with all our debt , cooking me heaps of stuff to bring back when I pick up my D or if I'm over there at night. 
So to be honest, I'm wondering lately what she's setting me up for this time to throw at me next - their engagement maybe !


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

You might also remember a few mths back where she'd text me in the middle of the night , saying she needs to be upfront with me from now on - and I said to you guys , " WHAT NOW " !

Well , I've worked out where that one was leading. Had I had asked her why or what she meant - I would've received that OM update back then instead.
That's what she was hoping it would lead too , I'd put money on it !


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

I just wish somehow , I could know if that om is really anything , really going to get anywhere !
As usual with W , the only way is to dig and dig to just find my own answers. The real ones anyway.
I'm still very suss of this om stuff and if that did fizzle out like they say they often do I am 99% sure of one thing . W would probably come back to earth on us after getting her own back like this.

I guess that goes against all the don't be a plan B stuff they teach you here but , I did hurt her terribly first causing all this in her so it's not exactly the usual scenario .


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

Him , she would tell me about , all I'd have to do is ask.

But I just couldn't . I couldn't take talking about him , even thinking about it.

Maybe I should just hang up the guns and start rebuilding my own future , don't know!
Maybe in a yr or two , we find our way back naturally or , maybe we're both with someone new by then and we don't !


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

Zanne said:


> Oh, that's a bummer, Whitehawk. If you knew OM was still in the picture, you may have saved yourself the emotional investment these past few months. How frustrating. But at least you can look back and know that you tried.
> 
> She was probably too far into the OM to care if you were sorry about the EA and wanted to R. Hopefully, going forward, your daughter is spared the drama associated with all of this.



Thanks Zanne , yeah it certainly is .
Om , I just don't know though , or her anymore . I do know none of this is sitting with me though and whenever I got that feeling with W - lots of times believe me, something didn't add up and this doesn't either now.
Will need to just get on with life though from here I think , see what pans out .


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

Zanne said:


> You may have regrets if you don't outright ask her. You will be two years out and still wondering if she's done with him. At least your doubts would be settled if you talked to her. Then you can deal with the pain and move on.



A friends suggested a letter , apology , door possibly may not be closed and the balls in her court in the future from there . I like the idea and I can find some closure maybe


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

One thing keeps crossing my mind , why so nice to me ?
Sometimes it is about my daughter.

But in excepting it am I allowing myself to be viewed as a plan B ?


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

An EA is, more often than not, even more damning to the married relationship, than is the PA. The EA is the sharing of emotional things that should belong solely within the realms of married relationship itself. 

The only thing that the PA actually does, just as in marriage, is to physically consumate the newfound scuroulous relationship ~ nothing more!


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I can't imagine that you've ever been Plan B to your W, WH.

Your A while she was in another room is what sent her out the door. My reading is that she was very wounded by that and if she's not happy to renew things with you now, it's because she was so burned before, not because she wants to try out OM and then bounce to you as the backup if that doesn't work out.

I think the letter is a good idea - perhaps, if you'd like, you can post it for feedback. I think the people here would be happy to help.


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

arbitrator said:


> An EA is, more often than not, even more damning to the married relationship, than is the PA. The EA is the sharing of emotional things that should belong solely within the realms of married relationship itself.
> 
> The only thing that the PA actually does, just as in marriage, is to physically consumate the newfound scuroulous relationship ~ nothing more![/QUOTE
> 
> ...


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> I can't imagine that you've ever been Plan B to your W, WH.
> 
> Your A while she was in another room is what sent her out the door. My reading is that she was very wounded by that and if she's not happy to renew things with you now, it's because she was so burned before, not because she wants to try out OM and then bounce to you as the backup if that doesn't work out.
> 
> I think the letter is a good idea - perhaps, if you'd like, you can post it for feedback. I think the people here would be happy to help.



Yeah . it.s accured to me today actually that I could well be no plan at all
I think I've been missreading nice to me. She'S said many times the guilt 
of splitting us up,the family, as well as leaving me in such a bad position
has been unbarable. Maybe it.s all just been about helping me and my
D through that , she has been a nurse for 20 yrs after all. She even 
talked about not leaving me in the lurch. I don't know. 
In all honesty , aside from being her usual very nice and helpful
self , I must admit , she does seem resigned to her new life.

I have been thinking about the letter and blurted out a 4 pager in the
middle of a job at work, there was just so much to cover. I've tried
to shorten it but it was one of those rare moments where everything 
was covered and in it' right place so I don't know.
But thanks for the care Dame but no I just don' t think I could go
public , it's just too personal.
Although , should I cover so much , don't know. I know they're spose 
to be short and sweet but well , a lot of [email protected] happens in 18yrs.
She's use to my long letters anyway , doubt it matters.

I might like to post what I've covered though , maybe it's too wide but
the way I see it is to be honest --- so what !

ps . I hope this is readable , it's through my mob' and hardly visable. 
I really don't know how people internet on these things.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I'm glad you could write it. I wouldn't worry about the length. Sometimes we need a lot of words to say the important and complicated things.


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

Yeah I don't think it matters.

Excuse the thoughts and emotions changing literally by the minute. I guess you mentally scratch away .
It's approaching letter time I think , I have to drop this crap and get on with life if that's the way it's going to be before I implode ! 

You know she's still in bed at 7&8 every night and complaining exhaustion . Have slipped out a few times well, you did dump us all into this mess , suck it up !
Don't you have the life now , no more us to worry about , no more properties to stress you out or debts to cover and businesses to keep going. Swap you for D and the rental any day and you can take our fkg mess - bitter but true  Wish she'd take me up on it !


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