# Alpha beta is not an either or choice



## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

Overly alpha and overly beta is not attractive. I believe we have consensus on that matter. 

Even more so, it is clear each women has her own preference for what the "percentage mix" of alpha/beta her ideal man has.

Some women, much to the surprise of the overly alpha fans, prefer a more beta man. The evidence even on TAM is consistent as several women chime in they prefer a majority beta preference while arguments over definitions of alpha and beta break out.

Some women want a full on neanderthal overly alpha jack a$$. We can argue about definitions which is never clear but always seems to prefer alpha over beta from most attempting a definition.

Let us not tar all men and women with the same one size fits all alpha / beta mutually exclusive nonsense. A given women's preference is a mix of each alpha and beta while each preferred mix for each women is a mix different than other women.

If you think all women have the same mix of alpha/beta preference, you are not paying attention. 

My crew of red blooded male carpenters represents every imaginable combination. Each has their admired and appreciated strengths adding to our team. We discussed all matter of issues in relationships and life daily.

We discussed how each of us would comfort a child at the scene of an accident that just lost a parent in a car crash. 

Each had a somewhat unique but clearly effective approach with every mix of alpha/beta imagineable. 

Each has a women in their life that loves them the way they are alpha / beta and all.

The all or nothing perspective is silly.

No one single mix has a corner on the market or the keys to an individual women's heart. 

It also warrants discussing preferred for what? Marriage, a red hot one night stand, defense of a home invasion, counseling a teenage daughter, helping with chores during a medical recovery, slaying a dragon, suggesting cost effective but thoughtful ways to decorate for a school dance, comforting a child that just lost a parent, comforting someone just diagnosed with cancer, giving enough of a $hit to know your wife's favorite things, career advice, struggling thru a relationship crises together, insights on intimidation or how to address an awkward situation in mixed company?

There are plenty of examples of becoming more and/or sexually reattractive and getting more sex by adding beta and a very similar amount of examples of adding alpha. 

Those that recommend one approach only are relying on anecdotal evidence of their personal experience. It doesn't hold up under the scrutiny of polar opposite experiences. 

It's all about the mix of alpha and beta, the individual women's preference, where your alpha/beta mix started. 

Alpha and beta are elf improvement and self-awareness ingredients to be added and subtracted to get the recipe for attraction right in line with your spouses preferences. 

Some will argue that alpha can not be added because it is not authentic. That is the crowd that does not recognize personal growth in people benefitting from self-reflection, tips from others, applying new wisdom and trial and error. 

Those that believe alpha or beta can not be adjusted are mistaken due to their missing the remarkable ability for someone to grow for themselves and their own happiness if they desire and have the determination, tools, personal strength and the information needed to pull it off. 

Those that don't understand it is a very viable option is them missing the ability and know-how and ingredients themselves. It is outside their personal experience so it's altogether impossible for them to grasp it as a very viable option to save a marriage of a determined man that is honest with himself and his loves his wife.


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## NotLikeYou (Aug 30, 2011)

thread the needle said:


> If you think all women have the same mix of alpha/beta preference, you are not paying attention.


If you think that every woman's ideal mix of alpha and beta doesn't change over time, you're not paying attention, either.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

> *Overly alpha and overly beta is not attractive. I believe we have consensus on that matter.
> 
> Even more so, it is clear each women has her own preference for what the "percentage mix" of alpha/beta her ideal man has.
> 
> Some women, much to the surprise of the overly alpha fans, prefer a more beta man.*


 I raise my hand.. I am one of those women!... I prefer a man tipped more on the Beta scales .... that's what I married.. he's a near perfect match for who I am, what I need.. also he can handle me !..

He compliments my weaknesses with his strengths.. and I compliment his weaknesses with my strengths.. 

Anyone who knows us would say I am the more Alpha, meaning more forthcoming, take charge, gets the ball rolling.... it's a inborn personality thing...basically the Choleric temperament is known for alpha attributes.. some of that is GOOD... but some can be BAD (if we are not careful.. Yep -we can be A-holes in a moment!)....

If I don't watch it...I can be too demanding..verbally blunt ...Patience is not my strong point (sure is his though!)....it helps I have a soft side too!

The opening line in this Choleric's definition says "Choleric people are the proud, extroverted 'alphas' of our species.

The Four Temperaments - Choleric

.. I do not like it when Beta's are put down like they are all puzzy whipped losers.. those who write those articles have no concept to what the terms really mean.. 

I tried to lay this out in my thread on these definitions..

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...ns-beta-male-good-all-p-whipped-pathetic.html

Copying & pasting my opening post ..... 



> When I 1st landed on TAM.. many threads on becoming more ALPHA.... but I noticed in a short time there were 2 different interpretations on what  is...or it's ROLE, if any in a man's life...some feel it is ALL BAD, needs killed.. others feel it has it's GOOD ...and is NEEDED for a "well balanced" man...
> 
> The ALL PATHETIC / burn Beta at the stake view here* >>* Who Is the Beta Male? ...she goes on to say..
> 
> ...


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## coffee4me (Feb 6, 2013)

thread the needle said:


> Let us not tar all men and women with the same one size fits all alpha / beta mutually exclusive nonsense. A given women's preference is a mix of each alpha and beta while each preferred mix for each women is a mix different that other women..



I agree. I'm more of an alpha female and I know many women like myself who prefer a more beta SO could be opposites attract or it feels like a better balance in the relationship. I'm not attracted to a more beta guy, I want someone who is like myself more alpha and challenges me just as I would him. I enjoy that dynamic.


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## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

I think the conversation can benefit from considering four groups instead of two. I have not put enough thought to these definitions but off the top of my head they might look something like

1. Positive alpha - Self-confidence, taking charge under stress, etc

2. Positive beta - Emotional &domestic awareness & support, demonstrated empathy for others, sincere expressions of comfort

3. Negative alpha - arrogance, selfishness, etc

4. Negative beta - pu$$y whipped wimpy, wuss, etc

Disclosure - I saved my marriage by removing negative alpha, adding positive beta and reenergizing positive alpha that had waned from my creeping laziness, take my wife for granted, getting too comfortable and a career that came very easy to me. 

My personal experience was a huge undertaking and personal renovation that started with noticing unwanted results, researching the available wisdom out there, choosing some options, applying my choices and trial and error tweaks along the way.

I dismiss the either/or alpha or beta perspective entirely and advocate fully that everyone consider the concepts and a mix of positive and negative with the understanding some women will prefer negative traits and dislike positive traits of both alpha and beta.

Get past what your wife's preferences are by dismissing the "she should" and the "she shouldn't", take full responsibility for your outcomes and fix your marriage by reattracting your wife by adjusting your own personal positive and negative alphas and betas to become the man you want to be with the outcomes you desire, instead of letting opportunities to tweak the mix right pass you by.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

We can talk about the traits different people want in a partner without the words alpha, beta, etc. These words are unnecessary and divisive and are used by some in extremely negative and stereo typing ways.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

coffee4me said:


> I agree. I'm more of an alpha female and I know many women like myself who prefer a more beta SO could be opposites attract or it feels like a better balance in the relationship. I'm not attracted to a more beta guy, I want someone who is like myself more alpha and challenges me just as I would him. I enjoy that dynamic.


I think for me.. there is enough challenges with raising a larger family... something we both wanted... this brings enough excitement for me..

I seek more of a stability , something secure I can wholly count on.. some of this is likely due to my upbringing -having a fear of abandonment as a young girl... Men who are naturally more Beta - they appear more faithful & true over those who have women at their disposal, the whole wealth / success thing going on....I'd have a very hard time trusting that.. due to lifestyle, excessive female temptation.. (I try to be realistic)..

I get off on the guy being wholly into me.. I want to be the center of his world.. I tend to feel Betas are more Romantic / sensitive.. this may not always be true however.. but it's kinda stuck in my head, that it is.


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## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> We can talk about the traits different people want in a partner without the words alpha, beta, etc. .


True but plenty find the model useful and efficient when understood 



Faithful Wife said:


> These words are unnecessary and divisive .


They don't have to be. I didn't use them that way



Faithful Wife said:


> used by some in extremely negative and stereo typing ways.


Right and I am addressing that. Please applaud it instead of derail it because some drop the ball. 

Every thread on TAM has some misuse and murder of terms and comprehension. Shall we dispense with all useful models and terminology because some screw them up often innocently (and sometimes bitterly) or shall we attempt to build upon them for everyone's benefit?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I understood you were addressing the stereo type and do applaud it. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

My two cents from a male perspective:
I think the alpha/beta argument is for the most part a false argument to begin with. What it comes down to is mentally healthy persons vs mentally unhealthy persons. A jacked up super Alpha is in reality just a mentally unhealthy individual with an overblown ego and without empathy for others. OTOH the weak sniveling beta is an equally unhealthy person suffering from severe self esteem and codependency issues. 
In real life both of these unhealthy individuals may attract opposites who compliment them or in actuality enables them. These relationships may last for years if both sides are comfortable or at least accepting of their roles.
Healthy individuals generally have a strong sense of self. Regardless of whether they display traits of alpha, beta or some combination of the two, healthy people know who they are. These people also attract those who find whatever traits they happen to possess appealing
Healthy people tend to attract healthy persons as mates or partners.
Obviously this not always the case, but it is the general rule and not the exception.
I think the key to whoever or whatever a person is, is confidence. PUAs encourage a false display of confidence as a tool of attraction. The false confidence masks a lot of underlying issues that often destroy relationships in the short and long term. Real confidence allows a person to survive relatively unscathed rejection, abandonment and/or some other type of relationship "failure". But real confidence also promotes long term relationships based on the law of attraction.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Ynot said:


> My two cents from a male perspective:
> I think the alpha/beta argument is for the most part a false argument to begin with. What it comes down to is mentally healthy persons vs mentally unhealthy persons.


When I first came to TAM, I had no idea there was all this underlying meaning to the words alpha and beta. I honestly just thought alpha referred to a healthy person, man or woman. I hadn't encountered the word beta yet, but I had read the book NMMNG, so I used the NG term as described in the book and used it meaning an unhealthy person.

I quickly learned how others used these words and all the bullcrap non-science behind them. I'm glad I got that education so I could stop using the words in ways that others could interpret my meaning incorrectly.

People want healthy partners. The personality and character of a healthy person can vary greatly. There is someone for every one of those character and personality types. To insist that people who don't fit into the alpha category can't be loved for who they are and that they must change if they ever expect to find love or sex is ridiculous.


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## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

Ynot said:


> I think the alpha/beta argument is for the most part a false argument to begin with


I think the argument is a false argument when the terms are misunderstood and there is an insistence alpha = good and beta = bad. That is way too simplistic and completely inaccurate due to well known varying alpha/beta mix preferences among individual females that even change over time for each individual woman. 



Ynot said:


> What it comes down to is mentally healthy persons vs mentally unhealthy persons. A jacked up super Alpha is in reality just a mentally unhealthy individual with an overblown ego and without empathy for others. OTOH the weak sniveling beta is an equally unhealthy person suffering from severe self esteem and codependency issues.
> In real life both of these unhealthy individuals may attract opposites who compliment them or in actuality enables them. These relationships may last for years if both sides are comfortable or at least accepting of their roles.
> Healthy individuals generally have a strong sense of self. Regardless of whether they display traits of alpha, beta or some combination of the two, healthy people know who they are. These people also attract those who find whatever traits they happen to possess appealing
> Healthy people tend to attract healthy persons as mates or partners.
> ...


Alpha a beta are a set of traits most understand up to a point but it needs to be taken further. Adding your worthy point to my attempt at taking the sophistication of the alpha / beta model farther replacing positive and negative with healthy and unhealthy we have 

1. Healthy alpha - confident slaying dragons without breaking the china 
2. Healthy beta - confident offering domestic support without losing manliness
3. Unhealthy alpha - jacked up arrogant heathen
3. Unhealthy beta - wuss

Your point agrees with the "alpha/beta mix and preference" concept but it also bears repeating that alpha/beta discussion is about what a woman finds attractive. She may very well find unhealthy alpha or unhealthy beta attractive even if it is unhealthy but she prefers that even if she is unhealthy also or not. 

Unhealthy beta attractive to a dom fem?
Unhealthy alpha attractive to ?



Faithful Wife said:


> The personality and character of a healthy person can vary greatly. There is someone for every one of those character and personality types. To insist that people who don't fit into the alpha category can't be loved for who they are and that they must change if they ever expect to find love or sex is ridiculous.


Absolutely spot on and that variation is the mix of healthy and unhealthy alpha and beta traits that a spouse finds attractive because it meets enough of her preferred mix of these traits.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

i still find alpha and beta designations to be nearly useless. 

in the end, the only thing that matters to anyone is whether or not they are getting their needs met. anyone can be anything the second they choose to, so defining someone as one or the other is rather pointless. 

i have seen the quiet guy who barely speaks loud enough to be heard, even when spoken to, step up and take control of chaos when his A type leader shat himself and turned into a quivering mess...


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

As'laDain said:


> *i still find alpha and beta designations to be nearly useless.
> 
> in the end, the only thing that matters to anyone is whether or not they are getting their needs met. anyone can be anything the second they choose to, so defining someone as one or the other is rather pointless. *


 I find discussing *temperament types* more beneficial -in trying to understand why we act the way we do.. or how we are wired.. over the Alpha / Beta.. 










and...












> *i have seen the quiet guy who barely speaks loud enough to be heard, even when spoken to, step up and take control of chaos when his A type leader shat himself and turned into a quivering mess..*.


 Yep.. my husband is that quiet guy who isn't one to ruffle feathers.. he's like a diplomat , a peacemaker...

But he's had his moments.. might only be able to count them on 1 hand... there was a day when a co-worker pushed him too far...the agitation reached it's boiling point ....Husband had enough...

He walked over to him.... got in his face with his middle finger turned down.....said "Can you hear this?". ... then said "I'll turn it up".. giving him the finger ...... I guess all the guys at work just FROZE witnessing that... like "Whoa.. "







it's not a day they'll forget .. they enjoyed telling me this story when I saw them.. ha ha 

Now he's not proud of himself when he's brought to that level......him coming home telling me this.. .I was cheering him on .... laughing.. I thought it was Great !... Good for him [email protected]# and his way of thinking is.. people shouldn't be A-holes to begin with.. so he doesn't have to get THAT way...


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## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

As'laDain said:


> i still find alpha and beta designations to be nearly useless.
> 
> in the end, the only thing that matters to anyone is whether or not they are getting their needs met. anyone can be anything the second they choose to, so defining someone as one or the other is rather pointless.
> 
> i have seen the quiet guy who barely speaks loud enough to be heard, even when spoken to, step up and take control of chaos when his A type leader shat himself and turned into a quivering mess...


Alpha and beta are names for a set of well known related behaviors. That is how they are useful. 

They are useless if employed incorrectly. To use them as all or nothing labels for people as absolutes is incorrect. 

Everyone partakes in both alpha and beta behaviors under the circumstances that triggers that individual.

Every individual has alpha and beta tendencies and preferences unique to themselves but they are no more useless than calling someone athletic or bookish or smart or artistic or quiet or loud or funny. They are descriptions that have a useful meaning if used correctly. 

There is a subset of our culture that deeply resents labels on people as they find being pigeon-holed with a label offensive especially if it is unflattering or inaccurate. 

I think that crowd could benefit from some soul searching without tossing out a descriptive model. 

You are confusing type a and b with alpha and beta. They are not the same nor are they mutually exclusive. 

Still waters run deep and there are smart and stupid alphas, betas, type a's and b's/

I also find it amusing you employed type a in your own explanation yet find alpha and beta useless.

Plenty of introverts wish extroverts would shut the hel1up as quiet pensive guy rises to the occasion a hero.

Not the same


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

thread the needle said:


> Alpha and beta are names for a set of well known related behaviors. That is how they are useful.
> 
> They are useless if employed incorrectly. To use them as all or nothing labels for people as absolutes is incorrect.
> 
> ...


 you missed the sarcasm. i guess, without the "", it could be subtle...


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

As'laDain said:


> i still find alpha and beta designations to be nearly useless.
> 
> ...


Throw them into the same tank and you might change your mind.

We are talking about fish here..right?

:grin2:


or are we!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

thread the needle said:


> Everyone partakes in both alpha and beta behaviors under the circumstances that triggers that individual.


I agree, I'll let the old lady get on top once in a while but I will finish it when I'm on top.

My point is this isn't about world peace, it about a man and a wife and negotiate the roles each spouse wants in a relationship.

Don't get me wrong some guys like that kind of female led relationship and good for them.


Me...I'll finish on top if it's all the same to me and the old lady.

For what it's worth I tried that equal partner bull crap and it wasn't attractive (the guy..with the cheating wife) I'm better off taking the lead and in order to do that I have to be the alpha penis that takes it.
Hell if I don't some other phucker will.

Again God bless the men in female led marriages....but that's just not how me and the old lady roll...."our" choice is an alpha male led marriage....sex....

I still hold her phucking purse when we have sex in public...go figure she will put her hands and knees in the dirt but god forbid her purse sit in the dirt:frown2:

I'm such a phucking bete! lol


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

the guy said:


> I agree, I'll let the old lady get on top once in a while but I will finish it when I'm on top.
> 
> My point is this isn't about world peace, it about a man and a wife and negotiate the roles each spouse wants in a relationship.
> 
> ...


LMFAO!!

You're killing me!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

As'laDain said:


> LMFAO!!
> 
> You're killing me!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hey I'm just here to help.

Throwing my $0.02 in and make folks think about folks like me that come from the other side of the tracks.:grin2:

Sure I'm wired different then most, but the fact remains there are other view points that need to be added to a very interesting thread.:smile2:



Whens "real" football (not soccer) start?


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

I have been on this forum for 3 years now. A few things became clear to me very quickly. I never knew what "game" was and I definitely never had any. Alpha / Beta was not just a place we shopped for groceries and my wife of 26 years has little respect for me. That's right .....I did not have a clue. My eyes had to be opened. 

Now I have implemented the 180 and it likely saved my marriage. 3 years later I pretty much resent that I had to do it. I liked who I was. It served be well for about 4 decades or so. Alpa? Beta? I have no idea where I fall in the spectrum. I do know that I am 100% confused and emotionally worn out.

I am quite sure my wife likes alpha. Her professional career dictated that she become such. I admire what she has done professionally but she definitely falls into the "she's just not that into you" category. 

Do I find anything wrong with a strong alpha or beta? No. As a matter of fact I think there are some very insightful posts in this thread. I do believe I am who I am. More beta than alpha. I think there was a good portion of my professional life when I was perceived to be quite alpha but I had no clue what that meant. When I look back on that time I look at who I was and think "What an A-hole". I have done everything in my power to never be that guy again. By the way those times were the last time women flirted with me and came on to me. Interesting eh?


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

RClawson said:


> By the way those times were the last time women flirted with me and came on to me. Interesting eh?


I don't think so....you were filling a "perception" .

Chicks like confident guys ...then all of the sudden you gave them options and confused them.

Ya it sucks but in this "world" some folks capitalize on weakness and some folks capitalize on strength.

In this case these flirtations were keyed off of strengths and once you lost that the females in the pack smelled it.

It's time to get your smell back and let all women know you are worth flirting with.

It's time to raise your attraction level.....you just might find your old lady begging at your feet.

Now wouldn't that be nice?


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

RClawson said:


> I have been on this forum for 3 years now. A few things became clear to me very quickly. I never knew what "game" was and I definitely never had any. Alpha / Beta was not just a place we shopped for groceries and my wife of 26 years has little respect for me. That's right .....I did not have a clue. My eyes had to be opened.
> 
> Now I have implemented the 180 and it likely saved my marriage. 3 years later I pretty much resent that I had to do it. I liked who I was. It served be well for about 4 decades or so. Alpa? Beta? I have no idea where I fall in the spectrum. I do know that I am 100% confused and emotionally worn out.
> 
> ...


So why not find a happy middle ground, where you are not super nice and beta but yet are not an a-hole?

Are you worried that you won't like yourself, or that others won't like you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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