# why would a guy want to get married?



## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

As in the way relations are these days. What benefit does a man have in getting married ? 

It once meant exclusive rights to offspring. Doesnt now. Guys more likely to be made to support someone elses offspring or to be held from seeing their own and still having to pay for them.
Once meant the woman was limited as far as affairs. Now women can have any affair they want.
Once meant a dowry or something, no dowry now.
Once meant a woman to care for children, run the house, etc.
not now.

im trying to figure out exactly what is left a man would get married for if it doesnt guarantee any exclusivity or someone to rear children, keep house or anything for that matter. And women are more than willing to have sex out of wedlock. so whats in it for men?
i dont see the benefits.


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

i think at one point the idea of the marriage was a guarantee to the guy the offspring was his, to some extent.

women always know it their offspring. Short of a dna test which was never available before guys were always kept guessing if they were raising someone elses child unnecessarily. hence the marriage and exclusivty.

That doesnt really exist now.


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

And a woman can abort your child or decide they dont want children anyway.
Men have no rights in this decision, and not more more once a child is born unless the mother is a crack addict or something and a court has to observe the mans rights.

So it really isnt any guarantee of offspring at all or rights to any offspring.


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## Kathrynthegreat (Apr 23, 2012)

Heck, I'm a woman and trying to figure out why I'd want to get married. So far I'm not coming up with anything.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Love is the only reason for a man to get married in general

I don't really see any other benefit, a lot of drawbacks but no benefits.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

I would much rather have a marriage based on love... versus one based on duty or obligation.... with views like that brib... I sometimes find myself wondering why bother with a serious relationship to begin with if all there is... is duty and obligation?
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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

You got me, i'm not legally married (long term relationship). I see absolutely no advantage in it and plenty of disadvantages. Marriage is a trap these days. You can end up paying for a spouse who treated you poorly, cheated on you or whatever hellish story you want. There is no way i'm going to put myself there.


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

Gaia said:


> I would much rather have a marriage based on love... versus one based on duty or obligation.... with views like that brib... I sometimes find myself wondering why bother with a serious relationship to begin with if all there is... is duty and obligation?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


well in my case. i pushed for traditional. someone for children, keep house, faithful etc.
And i refused to compromise If im giving "x" i want "y". Dont care what your friends, family, anyone else says this is what i want so deliver or forget the entire thing ill find someone else.
Otherwise there was absolutley nothing in it for me.
so at least i knew i was getting something in return or hoped to.
i dont need money. No problems taking care of myself. i wanted to know i had offspring that were mine and they were cared for.
But realistically, who has more to lose? If my wife decided to up and leave me tomorrow not only would she get a good percentage of the assets (not that im rich but i did have a prenup done which is now invalid because she refused to resign) she would also more than likely get custody of the children, child support, and since she doesnt work and hasnt in years probably alimony.
As it was even in the prenup my own lawyer told me i had to pay for her care and living expenses because i had a history of it. For a year AT LEAST.
But i would never have gone for a modern woman, or someone without a traditional mentality. There would be absolutely nothing in it for me but all risk and no reward.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

The thing is though... even without being married you still have the same problems....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Well... the assests would be safe I think? But there would still be the issue of child support.. if the couple had kids....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

Gaia said:


> Well... the assests would be safe I think? But there would still be the issue of child support.. if the couple had kids....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


so whats in it for the guy?


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

What's in it for anyone? If you view it as having to have something in it for you then why have a serious relationship at all?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

costa200 said:


> You got me, i'm not legally married (long term relationship). I see absolutely no advantage in it and plenty of disadvantages. Marriage is a trap these days. You can end up paying for a spouse who treated you poorly, cheated on you or whatever hellish story you want. There is no way i'm going to put myself there.


i ended up married because of religion. And something else i alluded to in another thread earlier on "presentation".

i find it much easier to introduce her and present her as "my wife" than my girlfriend or concubine. Mentally it actually helped me categorize her better in my head. Gave her a placement more concrete that i could understand better.

Short of that, if she wastn traditional i cant see what else i would be gaining.....


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

Gaia said:


> What's in it for anyone? If you view it as having to have something in it for you then why have a serious relationship at all?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


isnt everthing in life about trade offs? You are obviously giving up something, you want something in return. why would you make a trade knowing you are losing? If you arent offered something you need or want in the relationship (might as well call it a transaction it is in a sense) then why be in it? Sounds like a one way thing, cant be a healthy relationship if it is one way and the other side isnt getting anything in return.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

While "love" still rules, "trust" trumps "love"... and those are still the only acceptable reasons for marriage, at least in my minds eye.

But having gone through two of them, with all of the "ups and downs"(mostly the later), it would absolutely take one heck of a woman to ever make me want to even lend consideration to ever popping the question again!

By my nature, coming to love someone again would be so very easy~ but establishing trust with them now would be the most difficult thing!


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

arbitrator said:


> While "love" still rules, "trust" trumps "love"... and those are still the only acceptable reasons for marriage, at least in my minds eye.
> 
> But having gone through two of them, with all of the "ups and downs"(mostly the later), it would absolutely take one heck of a woman to ever make me want to even lend consideration to ever popping the question again!
> 
> By my nature, coming to love someone again would be so very easy~ but establishing trust with them now would be the most difficult thing!


if this one didnt work out for me i dont think i would bother again. My wife is pretty submissive and very loving. I found a pretty safe bet though i probably kind of pushed her into that direction (she earned her ring i didnt give it to her) and she was raised conservative and not believing in divorce (thank you god). She is the type that had our sons and asked me if i was happy i had a boys to carry on my name. It is just her mindset. She is still excited her last name changed to mine and she likes writing her first name and her new last name.

I dont think i could have found a safer gamble as far as a woman. If i didnt work out i dont think i would bother trying again. They are probably all down hill from her in that way i probably got lucky. I cant see the benefits in most guys being married and was grasping at straws to find the benefits in even myself getting married.  Hate to sound selfish, but i was kind of like "whats in it for me?"


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

I do believe compromise and sacrifices should be made on both ends but not out of obligation... I believe they should be made willingly out of love. I do agree with arbitrator on the trust being important as well and loyalty.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

Gaia said:


> I do believe compromise and sacrifices should be made on both ends but not out of obligation... I believe they should be made willingly out of love. I do agree with arbitrator on the trust being important as well and loyalty.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


if you are compromising and sacrificing you are accepting something you dont really want aren't you? while some would of course be necessary in a relationship already started, you really think you should enter a marriage already compromising and sacrificing? At what extent must you admit you are compromising on the person so much and they just aren't what you want and are looking for? That they aren't offering anything you really want or need.

Trust, loyalty, devotion. All huge things. Monumental. i couldnt agree more.


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## Married in VA (Jan 6, 2012)

I agree with the OP for the most part. Marriage will not cease to be a trap until the profitability is removed. Right now, for most women (and some men) divorce = profit. Until spousal support is eliminated and child support is 50/50 regardless of income divorce will be profitable. Once the money factor is removed, the divorce rate will plummet and people will actually work on their marriages. Sorry to sound cynical, but that appears to be reality.


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

PinkBeret said:


> The question could be asked "why would a woman want to get married?"
> 
> Now as a woman, you have to do 2 jobs for the paycheck of one. Most men stopped being providers.
> 
> ...


Thank womens lib. But actually it probably should be men thanking womens lib it got us off the hook somewhat for slaving on behalf of the family. Now it is socially acceptable to find a career girl, not have children, and stay home and play video games and try to get the woman to support YOU.
I actually think part of womens oppression in history (i hate that word though because i think in many cases women were protected not oppressed) was to guarantee offspring. If a woman had her own income, her own rights, there was no guarantee of offspring as with a patriarchal society.
It was mostly over offspring from what i have read.
Suppose in a modern society, looking at two income families and no children marriage could be considered a greater opportunity to gain wealth. A joining or partnership. But i think you will find many women will still gravitate toward wanting to be mothers, and men will gravitate to wanting the offspring it is probably natural.

Women have been screwed in a sense. They are nolonger chattel, but lost many of the things they enjoyed, like the right to stay home and be a mother in many cases. Taking some of the burden off men perhaps. It is socially acceptable now for a man to not support his wife. I think there was a time a guy could get jail time for not supporting his wife and end up a outcast. Many women still seem to want support, and arent getting it. My guess. Men may have made out in this. Head of household actually meant "slave for your families support".

Course the trade off for guys in this easier life is, do i have anyone that will give me offspring and take care of them? At what costs? womens new freedom gave them complete control over reproduction and the offspring for the most part. 
women maybe lose as far as they dont have the option to stay home and be mommy anymore all the time. But if they look around, they can probably find a guy to still support them or with a push make one support them. But guys kind of got wise on this and are refusing to now. They are more likely to push the woman to be career girl and mom and housewife all at once. Doubling or tripling a womans hours and work.
So maybe they have more choices, women they can be career girl or stay home but most cases they are probably forced to do pretty much all at once.
Im really not sure.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Oh so... your assuming women don't want to work? You really think being a stay at home mom is an easy life? Have you ever once stayed home with the kids while wifey worked? Oh right... your traditional so probably not. I do agree that on some aspects femenism seems a tad warped. But on the opposite end.. the malenism... is as well. Women having choices and taking lead roles is not new like some seem to think it is. Its more like history repeating itself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

PinkBeret said:


> Look around us, what are we influenced by? TV, reality shows, music, porn. Sex is everywhere. What are the messages that are being sent? Divorce, cheat, lie, do immoral things, YOLO (you only live one) attitude.
> 
> Again, the decline of morals.


I'm now divorced; my wife initiated it. I grew up in a family where divorce was considered a bad thing. It was right up there with a death in the family. It wasn't something where you just said, "Oh, well," and went along your merry way. people seem to take it so lightly today. 

I recently watch an interview with Eva Longoria talking about her recent divorce and it was sickening as to how she made it almost seem like a joke. She didn't seem to care if she got married a dozen times, it was all just part of life. She even mentioned Elizabeth Taylor and acted as though her many marriages was just a big joke. She said, "It's funny, I've been married twice.." She then laughed and said, "You've gotta get a couple of marriages out of the way......" The whole thing was just soooo funny to her. Yuck!!


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

I agree... yuck... I have noticed people lately don't take marriage seriously anymore.. nor do some seem to take long term relationships seriously anymore either. I do agree that it seems to be a decline in morals... like nothing is sacred anymore.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

Married in VA said:


> I agree with the OP for the most part. Marriage will not cease to be a trap until the profitability is removed. Right now, for most women (and some men) divorce = profit. Until spousal support is eliminated and child support is 50/50 regardless of income divorce will be profitable. Once the money factor is removed, the divorce rate will plummet and people will actually work on their marriages. Sorry to sound cynical, but that appears to be reality.


Thanks.

i think in general the way it worked before is the guy had to stay because it was taboo not to and you had to support your wife in kids. While divorce did happen it wasnt socially acceptable. Especially when the church and state mingled the church would come after the guy even if the state didnt. Either way he was in deep doo doo. I actually read a old article about a guy put in jail for not supporting his wife and kids. Which actually can still happen i suppose but it isnt as common now probably or as enforced unless it is a court ordered violation. The women had to stay because they really didnt have the opportunity to be financially independent or provide for themselves. There was a limitation in both assets they could acquire and rights they had. (securing that offspring for the guy).
The return for the guy was a guarantee of the offspring that was his. Exclusivity. The return for the woman was the support.
So both really were stuck, and had to work on the marriage.
Not so now. Chances are the lesser party will make out in the divorce financially, there are little for limitations as mutual independence and societal acceptance allows for the divorce. Men and women have both gained independence. Course with that might be the decrease or change in social values, and honesty devotion etc.
However single mothers are still the highest poverty rate from what i read before. Most likely because the stay at home mothers, part time working mothers dont gain the same amount of benefits financially or from state support as they did from the spouse. Their wealth will decrease reguardless of the divorce outcome unless they are working full time in a career while collecting child support or the alimony is high enough. And those that stay married longer tend to accumulate more wealth. So the immediate financial gain from the divorce if there is one is probably short lived, as over all staying married will give greater wealth accumulation for both parties overall.
Divorce costs money in the end.
Maybe there isnt anything worth marrying for, for either sex.


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

Gaia said:


> Oh so... your assuming women don't want to work? You really think being a stay at home mom is an easy life? Have you ever once stayed home with the kids while wifey worked? Oh right... your traditional so probably not. I do agree that on some aspects femenism seems a tad warped. But on the opposite end.. the malenism... is as well. Women having choices and taking lead roles is not new like some seem to think it is. Its more like history repeating itself.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


i think being a stay at home mom is a hard life. But i think for many women their children are more rewarding then their careers.
Women have choices, agreed. But i do think many kind of miss having the door opened for them. If they were given complete equality then it comes with complete accountability and responsibility. It is the latter many seem to shy away from.
The choices women have, need and should come with the repercussions. But they really havent received the full blunt of that. i think many women are still sheltered by state and past ideologies that they dont want to give up. They want their cake and want to eat it too. (i grew up with sisters. i seen my share of this).


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

This is slightly off topic but I think it makes a point about todays standards. I remember one time, I had just got off work and was sitting on the bench outside while waiting for my ride. Well an older man had pulled up, got out of his car and was approaching the building. I got up and opened the door for him and was caught off guard when he ask .... "what are you expecting a tip?" I politely told him no and he walked past in a huff. This suprised me because I had grown up being taught that one should always show ones elders respect and this included opening doors for them, ect. So at the time I was baffled and didn't know what to make of it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

I think people *should* consider what is in it for themselves. Ideally, their answers won't be quite so cut and dry, though. 

On the surface, marriage is a sort of social validation of the relationship. It creates a legal contract that can present risks if either party breaches that contract, but it also rewards them in the form of health insurance access and things like that. 

At a deeper level, marriage provides a personal and a public acknowledgement of duty and commitment to each other. When it's healthy, it provides internal benefits: Emotionally, it is more secure. Physically, it's beneficial to health.

And that brings us back to the beginning. When I've been in a relationship where we are not married, I'm more likely to bail out when things get tough. However, being married gives me good reason to pause. "I don't want a legal battle, so can we solve this problem?"


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

I had wondered when simple acts of kindness and respect turned into.. ill do this for this much money....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

Gaia said:


> I had wondered when simple acts of kindness and respect turned into.. ill do this for this much money....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It isn't just about the money itself. Money (wealth) does make a difference in how it is used. Primarily to benefit the family. So it is really about the family that you are building, and what exactly that is and can become.
Because you arent just taking the person out for a date. You are handing them your life, potential offspring, a good portion of your assets. You are seriously counting on this person to give you what you are looking for and making the unity a success. And how it works out is something that will affect not only you but your children, your childrens children, etc.
i personally wasnt out to screw up the branches and success rate of our families family tree. It isnt that im shallow by any means just realistic. And if im giving up something, i want something in return.
would you go a store and buy something, only to leave it on the counter and not take it home? would you go to the store and buy something, only to receive something other than what you purchased and be happy about that? you want what you are paying for right? you want something of equal exchange of what you are giving up. So you ask what you are giving up, and put a certain value on that. And consider what you are receiving and what or if you need that and want that.


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

PinkBeret said:


> *What boggles my mind is why women have children before marriage? As a matter of fact, why do women have such a high number of sex partners?*
> I agree that given the situation, I would not encourage neither men nor women to get married if 1) a man is a deadbeat and 2)a woman has been passed around.
> 
> TV and celebrities are shaping our culture. Children grow up looking up to stars like Eva and look at her attitude.
> ...


I think this is detrimental for a woman. I was reading on this, and the reason for the double standard on women and men and the amount of sex partners seems to go back again to offspring and exclusivity. Remember a guy isnt really guaranteed to know the offspring is his as a woman is.
So the more a woman sleeps around the less value she has for most guys, as the chances of the offspring being his declines. The kids before marriage is a huge issue for most men. They really prefer to not pay for and raise another mans kids.
i think this is a biological thing, i dont think it can be changed.
while a man that may sleep around may be more accepted as a worthy "steed". Men that have slept around tend to not bother a woman as much, may even increase the value of them in a womans mind.
But women flatly devalue for a man, with the amount of sex partners and children by other she has. I think the response is instinctual for a man. Another problem for a guy considering marriage. If the woman has been "around" they will have little to no respect for them, and not trust them. It wont go well. Not sure if the guy can even help it, its a normal response as they naturally consider the value and exclusivity. It is why women being virgins was so important in latter ages it gave them a certain value in marriage. Non virgins weren't worth much.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Me & my husband were always on the same page on how to raise a family, build a life & marriage together ..... we have always looked upon the traditional set up as the Superior- when bringing children into the mix .....so long as we could swing it financially. ...this was OUR PLAN from early on. We never cared to climb social ladders, we understood sacrifices will have to be made in order to swing this lifestyle. 

I never cared to go off to College, some would call me "not wise" in this day & age... but for how it all has turned out... I wouldn't change a blessid thing. 

I also looked upon intercourse as "sacred" ... I would never give myself to a man unless I knew it was for LIFE... My husband respected me for this, it was not a deal breaker for him....Which spoke volumes to me- of his character, and love for me, that willingness to wait. It is not like we didn't have some pleasurable FUN -We did ! But yet... we still had something NEW & special to bring to our Honeymoon. 

I never once felt "under" him or he was trying to put me into submission, I never worried he was going to cheat on me either. I realize these things DO happen, but it was never a part of my worries -given I was dependent on my husband. 

His delight was to take care of his wife & growing Family....this is a role man has INSIDE of him, to PROTECT and PROVIDE. If men are loosing a part of that today... it is because of the Climate of our society. Somehow RESPECT has been lost on both sides of the aisle. 


I consider his blue collar Job as much harder than My role as a SAHM... I am thankful every day I was ABLE to stay home with my children...and he has never felt his role was higher than mine or of more value... we both praise each other for what the other brings to the marriage and family. 

He wanted to marry me because he wanted to share his everything with me... Like this song... we did it all for the  Glory Of Love


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

PinkBeret said:


> The question could be asked "why would a woman want to get married?"


I dunno.



> Now as a woman, you have to do 2 jobs for the paycheck of one. Most men stopped being providers.


Not true, in either case.



> I don't think it's fair to make it seem like the man "loses" more than the woman in marriage.


I can only speak for myself.



> The true problem is the decline of morals. People are no longer acting/behaving properly.


Nope, the true problem is people determining what "morality" is for everyone else.




> People do as they wish. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should. But people just do what they can, cheat, lie, abuse, etc, knowing that there will be consequences to be paid.


Just as they`ve always done.
Nothing new here.



> Don't worry in due time, there will be laws for long-term relationships as the male/female relationships evolve. The Long-term relationship or the co-habitation will be the new marriage. Just like the 30's is the new 20's.


Which will guarantee beyond a shadow of a doubt that long term relationships become a very rare thing.



> Look around us, what are we influenced by? TV, reality shows, music, porn. Sex is everywhere. What are the messages that are being sent? Divorce, cheat, lie, do immoral things, YOLO (you only live one) attitude.


I dunno, I like to think my ethical foundation is influenced by something a bit more substantial than TV.




> Again, the decline of morals.


Or the rise of a new moral landscape.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

PinkBeret said:


> What boggles my mind is why women have children before marriage? As a matter of fact, why do women have such a high number of sex partners?


Why shouldn`t they?



> I agree that given the situation, I would not encourage neither men nor women to get married if 1) a man is a deadbeat and 2)a woman has been passed around.


But it`s acceptable if a woman is a deadbeat and a man has been passed around?
Equity?



> Marriage is no longer worth it anymore for both genders, not just men, unless the partner is quality.


I don`t think marriage was ever worth it.


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## still.trying (Jul 27, 2012)

Obviously you want a housewife he has no children of her own yet to give you children and cook and clean and raise them while you work and provide for the family. It's just a matter of finding someone who wants that too. There are lots of them out there. Times have changed and many women do not want to stay at home and live that life style and that' okay. Don't marry someone like that. There are lots and lots of women out there who would be happy to stay home and cook and clean and raise your children assuming you are willing to provide for them and treat them right. And the whole wedlock thing goes both ways. If you don't think it is acceptable than what makes you think that there is no woman out there who also thinks adultry unacceptable. Maybe you need to be more picky about who you date.


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Me & my husband were always on the same page on how to raise a family, build a life & marriage together ..... we have always looked upon the traditional set up as the Superior- when bringing children into the mix .....so long as we could swing it financially. ...this was OUR PLAN from early on. We never cared to climb social ladders, we understood sacrifices will have to be made in order to swing this lifestyle.
> 
> I never cared to go off to College, some would call me "not wise" in this day & age... but for how it all has turned out... I wouldn't change a blessid thing.
> 
> ...


wow. that is awesome.

That really is a way of thinking from another day and age. 
I believe men are losing the protect and provide. Not sure what can be done about it. They dont really need to protect and provide anymore in most cases and many are refusing to do it. They dont see the trade off for them.
Men stopped being men, and women stopped being women me thinks.


you sure on his job being harder than yours? i think i would prefer to go to work than take my wifes place at home with three kids.  I love my kids but to be with them everday, all day. i think i would go nuts. Im not a natural nurturer type. id be pulling my hair out.
I think my wife naturally went into submission. when she was in her early twenties she was hell on earth with a rebellious phase im surprised i lived through. But it seemed to be a passing phase she grew out of and she did a 180 back to her conservative roots. She is great now as far as that anyway. Pretty much do whatever i tell her to. Course she receives alot of love so it is easier for her too. Think most of the stress in my life was getting her through her early twenties.  My mother actually gave me advice on handling her then, patience, give her security. Dont take any crap from her.  keep her out of trouble. Basically be her daddy and her significant other at the same time. Let her come to you. And mom was right. 
Much stress later, wifey settled in nicely and happily. Still cant believe i survived that she was a nightmare for a couple years i was always chasing after her and cleaning up her mess, trying to keep her out of harms way and trying to get her to be responsible. 
Lot of it is condtioning on both sides though. My parents drilled it in my head i had to support a wife and family growing up. That i was totally accountable for my wife and family. Where as i drilled it in my wifes head she had to be a wife and i wouldnt accept less.
so i guess we all had something drilled in our heads. I might add, my mother was the main instigator in drilling these things in my head and also it pushing me to bring my wife under wraps. And giving me the "there is a kind of girl you have fun with, and the kind of girl you marry" speech.
My father was actually less involved, but slammed me hard on responsibility and accountability. No excuses. You are a guy you cant make mistakes you will have a family to responsible for some day..... etc.
He was a total hard ass though not as involved with our upbringing as mom. lol
These are all ideologies of a earlier day and age though. Not how it is now.
My family is oldschool, so i was raised old school.
so i needed a old school wife.


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

OP, I don't know what the exact problems in your marriage were, you can enlighten me if you wish too.

But I find threads like this to be ridiculous and insulting to both men and women that value marriage. JMO

Maybe your wife didn't get what she wanted from marriage either. You said you wanted an old fashioned wife who was seemingly perfect at it. Did she get a flawless old fashioned husband? Did you put your wife first? Were you a good head of the household? Were you loving and caring? Did you provide for her emotional needs? 

I personally believe that women have to be more careful and choosier about who they marry then men do, as women are far more likely to end up living in poverty and caring for the children in the event of a divorce.

There are many reasons to marry, and I think we all have to be aware about how our own actions or inactions contributed to our marital breakdowns. It's good to be self aware rather then bitter and resentful.


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

*LittleDeer* said:


> OP, I don't know what the exact problems in your marriage were, you can enlighten me if you wish too.
> 
> But I find threads like this to be ridiculous and insulting to both men and women that value marriage. JMO
> 
> ...


i just want to know the trade off, on why a guy would get married in this day in age. I dont see many reasons a guy would, though a few have been mentioned such as i mentioned offspring, another mentioned health insurance, another mentioned love. This is something i have been trying to understand. The differences between why a guy would now, what is gained, compared maybe earlier times. One benefit now the way society has marriage (providing the wife is a career girl and she doesnt stay home with kids and the marriage doesnt end in divorce) is a increase in wealth for both of them. Course with a higher divorce rate the wealth accumulation aspect may not be very viable.
perhaps i should start making a list of the positives and negatives but i think the negatives might out weight the positives. Other posters have had some great comments, have you read them? Very insightful. The trade off is what i am trying to put my finger on.
Apparently you think a woman should be even more concerned. Rightfully so perhaps im still trying to understand a womans side of the equation and what she gains from it that she wouldnt have in being single or single with kids. If you feel that a single woman with kids are more likely to be poverty stricken (which they are in most cases) then it would be in their best interests to be married if they intend on having children. So that is a cause for them to get married. But in this society the woman has equal chance to go to work. They dont have to go on welfare. More women than men are getting degrees. So im not sure the poverty stricken (probably the amount on welfare) is viable either unless they dont want to work and choose it. Strange thing is how you phrased that. That they are taking care of the kids. Like they cant work. I think it is more likely they are following a ideology of yesteryear, being a sahm. But with no provider the state filled in as hubby and they are living off the dole.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Married in VA said:


> I agree with the OP for the most part. Marriage will not cease to be a trap until the profitability is removed. Right now, for most women (and some men) divorce = profit. Until spousal support is eliminated and child support is 50/50 regardless of income divorce will be profitable. Once the money factor is removed, the divorce rate will plummet and people will actually work on their marriages. Sorry to sound cynical, but that appears to be reality.


If spousal support is completely elminated then no person (male or female) would agree to stay home and raise the children.

Perhaps the way to go would be for men to pay women to have a child with 50/50 legal and physical custody being standard/assumed. Then the parent who stays home to raise the children, clean the house, etc. gets paid a salary by the other. 

If that salary is not enough for the SAHM/D then they can have a career and the children go to day care. And both spouses can pool money togther to pay for house cleaning or share it 50/50


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

PinkBeret said:


> I agree completely. My husband and I value marriage greatly and feel sad for those that feel this negatively about marriage.
> 
> However, at the same time, people have become less than marriage material. No offense to anyone!


I agree that more and more people have become less than marriage material. 

Of course, as proven by my marriages, even in the older generation a lot of people even in previous generations were not etiher.


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## Ayla (Aug 24, 2011)

I think it's simplistic to blame women's lib for the ills of our current society. Life was not perfect back then...it isn't today and has never been. It's also trite to just assume that women wanted rights because they were bored or jealous of men. My mother couldn't get a credit card in her name during the 1960s or an apartment for that matter. Every woman isn't suited or interested in being a wife or mother but prior to women's lib it was assumed that you didn't need to make a living wage because a man would eventually take care of you. Forcing women to stay married because they have no way to support themselves is kind of sick. No recourse for a woman in a domestic violence situation or with a crazy...lazy...abusive...alcoholic spouse etc. Just too bad you picked the wrong one so you have to spend the rest of your life suffering for making a bad choice. Why did women decide they wanted equal rights anyway? We look at the past with rose colored glasses like housewives were put on some pedestal or something when in truth society has always mocked women and women's work as having less value than what has been considered a man's work. I could go on and on. I'm glad you have found the right one for you but your lifestyle isn't for everyone. That's what women's rights were about, choice.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

Just stop making assumptions, please. If you want 50/50 with your kids, you can have 50/50. It means making a lot of sacrifices--not able to work late hours, not able to travel for work, unable to accept certain promotions, etc., etc., etc. But it will mean, spending more time with your kids. 

Very few states will give "alimony for life," unless a woman is beyond a point where she can reasonably expect to gain skills and have enough of a career to support herself in her later years. This is to keep her from becoming a burden on society, NOT because courts favor women. A man who sacrificed his career for 20 years as a woman's husband would find the same. 

I don't see much merit in marriage for either men or women, but it's just too irritating to hear people continue to blather on about things they know nothing about, to focus on the main question. 

I think most men marry b/c they want "guaranteed" sexual access to a woman, so to speak. Men will generally get more sex w/in marriage than out of it (excluding the top few % who are very successful at sleeping around). I don't think this has all that much to do with children (not in this century, anyway).


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

Ayla said:


> I think it's simplistic to blame women's lib for the ills of our current society. Life was not perfect back then...it isn't today and has never been. It's also trite to just assume that women wanted rights because they were bored or jealous of men. My mother couldn't get a credit card in her name during the 1960s or an apartment for that matter. Every woman isn't suited or interested in being a wife or mother but prior to women's lib it was assumed that you didn't need to make a living wage because a man would eventually take care of you. Forcing women to stay married because they have no way to support themselves is kind of sick. No recourse for a woman in a domestic violence situation or with a crazy...lazy...abusive...alcoholic spouse etc. Just too bad you picked the wrong one so you have to spend the rest of your life suffering for making a bad choice. Why did women decide they wanted equal rights anyway? We look at the past with rose colored glasses like housewives were put on some pedestal or something when in truth society has always mocked women and women's work as having less value than what has been considered a man's work. I could go on and on. I'm glad you have found the right one for you but your lifestyle isn't for everyone. That's what women's rights were about, choice.


i actually wonder if men made out better in womens rights and it was pushed more by men than women. And i think women lost.
men were arrested for domestic violence long before womens rights. And convicted. I dont think women decided they wanted equal rights. i think guys decided they wanted them to have equal responsibility. i also think technology and modernization (and necessity) opened the doors for women to increase their rights.
i actually think the womens movement was a small, fascade that was misrepresented to be something it really wasnt. corporate america probably made out the best having twice the labor pool, decreasing labor costs and a transfer of wealth. A steady supply of upcoming two income worker ants.
I dont think women had a choice, or gained a choice. But rather were misled and men gained the option of not supporting a wife.  I also think men didnt have a choice then, any more than a woman did. They kind of had to go to work, support the family. I dont see men having a choice then. i think you are looking at this entirely one sided. So while they are dying working (yeah, many men died working to support a family) you seem to think just of women oppression (as you have been led to) but not seeing the other side of that equation. women wont have a choice. They will have to go to work eventually. no choice. just like a guy had to go to work. welcome to the club. But at least now with modernization and the economic system we have now, there are jobs available for women that they can do as everything has improved and many things have become easier labor wise. Or nonexistant labor required for employment as things became more professional and the slave labor was outsourced for foreign countries..


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

What are the advantages of marriage today?

One of the biggest I can see is that it provides a stable home environment for the children born to the couple.

It provides a man the absolute legal rights to his children. 

When a child is born to an unmarried woman, the after of the child has to prove his paternity in the courts. And even after that the mother is still considered the parent with the majority of legal rights with the child. The child’s father having automatic equal legal parental rights/connection to the child is a huge benefit to both the father and the child.

We also know from statistical data that a child raised outside of an intact family is far more likely to end up in a life of crime.

Another benefit is shared financial gains. In a marriage where one spouse is a SAHM/D, it frees the other up to put more time/energy into a career. Thus the career of the working spouse benefits greatly. The children benefit by having a SAHM/D. 

In a marriage where both spouses work there is the financial benefit that by having shared bills/expenses (one house payment, etc) means that the couple can live a better life style, save more money, make more investments, etc. 

When both spouses are working it also give each one of them the stability of having someone to fall back on should they lose their job, become ill, etc. All of this intern protects the children and helps to provide a stable home environment for them… leading to them being more successful in life.

To me marriage is largely about the children and taking care of each other.

And of course there is the benefit of living with someone who loves and cares for you… 

There are more benefits of marriage even today… but this is all I have time to type up right now.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

The idea that women in past generations did not work is laughable.

Women generally had one choice... to get married and have children. But they worked. They did not have appliances to do the things that we do today. 

When they did the laundry is meant scrubbing cloathing on a wash board. When I was a child this is how we did laundry. We did not live in the USA and appliances were not available. Scurbing clothing on a scrub board is hard, back breaking work. I remember how excited everyone was when my mom got a wringer washing machine. We no longer had to use the scub board on most things. Instead we just had to let the washer aggitate, drain it, let it refill, aggitate again.. then we had to take each piece of clothing and put it through the wringer. Then we hung it outside on the clothes line.

We had to iron every piece of clothing as well.

Most things we ate had to be cooked from scratch.

I could go on but you get the idea.

In the past women who stayed home generally worked as hard as the men did doing household chores with few if any appliance, cooked and preserved food from scratch, grew the family garden, took care of live stock and so forth... all the while they were often pregnant one more time with a brood of children to take care of.

Sure a man brought in money by either working outside of the home/farm or by selling farm's excess produce/livestock.

Both spouses worked very hard.


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> What are the advantages of marriage today?
> 
> One of the biggest I can see is that it provides a stable home environment for the children born to the couple.
> 
> ...


That was actually pretty good....:toast:i hadnt even considered children as far as how they turn out and any statistical data in the thread of that or the backup income of the other partner if one cant work...
i dont think you will find many stay at home dads though. A few but majority probably not. Even stay at home moms are becoming a rarity. And yes, the legal rights to offspring are more apparent for the father in marriage.
At one time when the wife and children were considered chattel the husband had ownership in marriage of her and any offspring, but any concubine or unmarried affair resulting in children the father had no recourse or rights as it couldnt be proven to be his offspring. Same reason bastard children were not allowed inheritance. i think the laws came from that concerning this, or resulted from that and english common law.
so now the father has more rights to offspring in marriage, but not ownership. And more rights of children out of wedlock, instead of having none but paternity has to be proven. Before paternity couldnt be proven with children out of wedlock so the laws didnt really give fathers rights on those children and perhaps for that reason. Course the mothers werent allowed any financial support or child support either but they may have got some "hush" money. In wedlock i didnt have to sign for paternity. On my first child out of wedlock i had to go in and sign accepting paternity for any rights i had to kick in.


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> The idea that women in past generations did not work is laughable.
> 
> Women generally had one choice... to get married and have children. But they worked. They did not have appliances to do the things that we do today.
> 
> ...


they dont make women like that anymore. They all have tiaras now.


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## Ayla (Aug 24, 2011)

I don't feel like I've been robbed of anything. I love my ability to earn money and I wouldn't give it up to be a housewife...ever. I went to school and picked a profession that I knew paid well because of my experience as a dependent woman in the early 90s with my ex. My ex was a alcoholic and an abuser. I'm glad it was 1998 when I left him and not 1898 when I would have had no choice but to keep asking him for money every-time I needed a box of tampons. I'm glad I live in modern times where I didn't have to stay with a drunk who was an indifferent father. It's too bad that some people abuse divorce but sometimes it's necessary and if the trade off is that some men feel emasculated and no longer want to marry because they want to be king over someone instead of a partner then maybe that isn't such a bad thing. Great for all the Ward and June Cleavers out there who are living the perfect male/female roles and making it work for them. For some of us it didn't work out like that and we needed an exit door and a way to make a living.

Finally every man in the world isn't out there dying while he is working. Every man doesn't do dangerous work...lots of fat sloppy desk jockeys in this country and prior to that what was the average man? A farmer? Life was dangerous for everyone prior to modern medicine. A 19th century man or woman was more likely to die from disease than anything else. So let's not go there and act like all men were big strong heroes putting there lives on the line every day while women were catered too princesses. Nothing is that simple. 




bribrius said:


> i actually wonder if men made out better in womens rights and it was pushed more by men than women. And i think women lost.
> men were arrested for domestic violence long before womens rights. And convicted. I dont think women decided they wanted equal rights. i think guys decided they wanted them to have equal responsibility. i also think technology and modernization (and necessity) opened the doors for women to increase their rights.
> i actually think the womens movement was a small, fascade that was misrepresented to be something it really wasnt. corporate america probably made out the best having twice the labor pool, decreasing labor costs and a transfer of wealth. A steady supply of upcoming two income worker ants.
> I dont think women had a choice, or gained a choice. But rather were misled and men gained the option of not supporting a wife.  I also think men didnt have a choice then, any more than a woman did. They kind of had to go to work, support the family. I dont see men having a choice then. i think you are looking at this entirely one sided. So while they are dying working (yeah, many men died working to support a family) you seem to think just of women oppression (as you have been led to) but not seeing the other side of that equation. women wont have a choice. They will have to go to work eventually. no choice. just like a guy had to go to work. welcome to the club. But at least now with modernization and the economic system we have now, there are jobs available for women that they can do as everything has improved and many things have become easier labor wise. Or nonexistant labor required for employment as things became more professional and the slave labor was outsourced for foreign countries..


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

PinkBeret said:


> You know what else is the problem?
> 
> Husbands and wives let too many strangers pitch in about their marriage.
> 
> ...


nope. suggesting God is suggesting no womens rights. The bible is based on patriarchal teachings and women as chattel. Didnt you know this? It is oppressive to women just do a search online there are tons of links on it...
Bride price was replaced by engagement rings. we are in modern society. Though the engagement ring still technically belongs to the man until the marriage takes place as it follows previous custom (just like the bride price would be returned if the marriage didnt take place). Im actually going to avoid posting my current marriage status on here for a while. My marriage is doing well i dont want to screw it up by voicing concerns to you all (not that you arent nice) instead of going directly to the wife about it.


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

Ayla said:


> I don't feel like I've been robbed of anything. I love my ability to earn money and I wouldn't give it up to be a housewife...ever. I went to school and picked a profession that I knew paid well because of my experience as a dependent woman in the early 90s with my ex. My ex was a alcoholic and an abuser. I'm glad it was 1998 when I left him and not 1898 when I would have had no choice but to keep asking him for money every-time I needed a box of tampons. I'm glad I live in modern times where I didn't have to stay with a drunk who was an indifferent father. It's too bad that some people abuse divorce but sometimes it's necessary and if the trade off is that some men feel emasculated and no longer want to marry because they want to be king over someone instead of a partner then maybe that isn't such a bad thing. Great for all the Ward and June Cleavers out there who are living the perfect male/female roles and making it work for them. For some of us it didn't work out like that and we needed an exit door and a way to make a living.
> 
> Finally every man in the world isn't out there dying while he is working. Every man doesn't do dangerous work...lots of fat sloppy desk jockeys in this country and prior to that what was the average man? A farmer? Life was dangerous for everyone prior to modern medicine. A 19th century man or woman was more likely to die from disease than anything else. So let's not go there and act like all men were big strong heroes putting there lives on the line every day while women were catered too princesses. Nothing is that simple.


i agree. i think all women divorced should work. support your own kids. This is the benefit we do have of womens lib..
i dont think it is about being king over anybody. i really think it comes down to paternity and reproduction. If it wasnt for that im not sure men would even care what women did it wouldnt effect us at all.
They werent all farmers. Are you serious? You ever look around the country and wonder where it all came from? How the economy developed? The buildings, bridges, trains, plants and manufacturing facilities. The corporations the air travel, the shipping. Granted some of it was slave labor and immigrants that gained citizenship, it was primarily men. The unions and government safety regulations developed because of the obscene amount of deaths of men in occupations that mostly derived from the original building of the country and the industrial revolution. women and children actually worked also but on limited amounts and laws came into being protecting them and the hours and type of work they were allowed to do. Children and womens work laws were pretty similiar and giving them some protection as they were pretty much considered the same. Men didnt have the same protections but the formation of unions and things like osha regulations did help.
Think of womens rights this way.. (my wife kind of led me to this conclusion).

If you are oppressed, short of overthrowing the oppressors you arent going to stop being oppressed. No one was overthrown. The government wasnt overthrown. The majority of womens rights laws were voted in by a government of WHITE MEN. Not women. It was MEN that actually gave womens rights. Now the only question is why would they do that. They nice or because there was a alterior motive.

Edit: not to mention most jobs available at the turn of the century women wouldnt want to do. The men didnt even want to do them they had to.


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## Ayla (Aug 24, 2011)

Like I said before a lot of your thinking is very black and white. Every man isn't a white knight...during the course of history there were a lot more Joe blows who died of the flu than in battle or working in a factory. All women during the history of the human race have not been part of the protected princess class. 

I don't mind working and yep I did raise my eldest alone till I married dh. I've never been on any sort of assistance in my entire life and the ex never paid his cs. I'm sure you feel that he shouldn't have and I got what I deserved but it turned out fine. The ex would like nothing more than to have ds in his life now that he is grown and no longer needs anything. Ds feels differently about the father who felt he was nothing more than $$$ out of his pocket. 






bribrius said:


> i agree. i think all women divorced should work. support your own kids. This is the benefit we do have of womens lib..
> i dont think it is about being king over anybody. i really think it comes down to paternity and reproduction. If it wasnt for that im not sure men would even care what women did it wouldnt effect us at all.
> They werent all farmers. Are you serious? You ever look around the country and wonder where it all came from? How the economy developed? The buildings, bridges, trains, plants and manufacturing facilities. The corporations the air travel, the shipping. Granted some of it was slave labor and immigrants that gained citizenship, it was primarily men. The unions and government safety regulations developed because of the obscene amount of deaths of men in occupations that mostly derived from the original building of the country and the industrial revolution. women and children actually worked also but on limited amounts and laws came into being protecting them and the hours and type of work they were allowed to do. Children and womens work laws were pretty similiar and giving them some protection as they were pretty much considered the same. Men didnt have the same protections but the formation of unions and things like osha regulations did help.
> Think of womens rights this way.. (my wife kind of led me to this conclusion).
> ...


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

PinkBeret said:


> I don't agree with what you said about God and marriage but I'm too tired to debate about it. TAM really drains me. There is so much emotional pain on this forum regarding marriages and I can't help but feel for everyone that is suffering.
> 
> But I'm liking the quoted part -- this is how it should be.


sorry. i didnt mean that to be argumentative. i was actually pretending i was a liberal for a moment in sarcasm. i actually think the biblical example of marriage provided for a better marriage in many ways. And the chattel marriage provided a woman with a certain amount of protection they wouldnt have had outside of it and left to the worlds devices at the time. Once married they were basically guaranteed at least SOME security, support and without it they had none in a world with few laws, few protections, and few social programs to provide for them. The biblical representation of marriage was probably beneficial to women of that time more than harmful. I think if i was a woman then i would have been jumping to find the biggest, richest, baddest man to marry and protect me just to avoid the rest of them and the ills of society of that time in general. Not like they had much for a local police department, programs or any real civilzation to depend on and left on their own they were nothing but a target. Least married it would give anyone else pause before screwing with her, realizing she was someone elses and there would be ramifications.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

I would like to find a man who would want to be married based on a spiritual bonding, where husband and wife would look out for each other's spiritual welfare, as well as getting each other's backs in all other ways as well. Money, sex, children, housework all take a back seat to the primary reason for bonding. If there isn't a solid spiritual bond that's actually felt, I don't get why there would be a marriage in the first place. I got married before thinking that there was a spiritual bond but I was lied to. I'm a Quaker and practice now where I didn't before. If I'm lucky enough to find a partner again who would consider marriage I would put it forth to my Meeting for affirmation. I don't think I would want to marry someone who didn't appreciate all the hard work I've put in to be as spiritually and mentally solid as I can be as a single parent. And I don't think I would be okay marrying someone who wanted a free ride in that respect, I'd want them to have done that work too, with the assumption that nobody is going to give up doing that afterwards, either. Marriage is a process. If someone isn't committed to a spiritual process, there isn't going to be a marriage, as far as I'm concerned. I'm serious about finding a husband. Even dating someone, and more or less involved, I'm still evaluating how well they hold up on their own, and how they go about doing this, and I haven't given up on male friends I'm not involved with from a dating perspective who might be showing more progress in self-care and spiritual awareness than my steady date. :-o There's a guy friend I'm compatible with, however he has some issues to deal with, and I'm not even telling him, hey, if you do this, that, and the other thing I will date you seriously, for real. I would rather someone finds the path themselves, than try to do w, x, y to arrive at z just for the sake of getting a commitment. I really want him to arrive at the right place on his own, and if he doesn't, he doesn't. Still a friend. But I do need someone to take their health and day to day existence as well as finances seriously. Like it matters, because it really does if you want to be able to pursue a spiritual relationship on top of everything else. Less hassle/impediments to trip things up. "Clutter" I guess, interferes with what a good relationship could be.


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

Ayla said:


> Like I said before a lot of your thinking is very black and white. Every man isn't a white knight...during the course of history there were a lot more Joe blows who died of the flu than in battle or working in a factory. All women during the history of the human race have not been part of the protected princess class.
> 
> I don't mind working and yep I did raise my eldest alone till I married dh. I've never been on any sort of assistance in my entire life and the ex never paid his cs. I'm sure you feel that he shouldn't have and I got what I deserved but it turned out fine. The ex would like nothing more than to have ds in his life now that he is grown and no longer needs anything. Ds feels differently about the father who felt he was nothing more than $$$ out of his pocket.


sadly, women actually had a high mortality rate from child birth. And everyone wanted more children because the children had a high mortality rate so not all would survive. without birth control they would have had to have children anyway unless they were doing closet abortions which were somewhat frowned on when you are trying to have children and the children werent surviving. Needed more children to run the family farm or put to work in the later years for the good of the family in general. Im not saying women had it easy. They were basically baby factories. They put out ten, fifteen children perhaps who knows. Minus some miscarriages and early child hood deaths they didnt end up with all of them so they were kind of expected to keep giving birth. Please dont take this the wrong way. Life was hard on everyone im not trying to make is seem like women had it made by any means. I actually think your husband should have been given jail time if he was a abusive drunk who didnt support his family.

Nothing really to do with why men should get married however....


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## Ayla (Aug 24, 2011)

My own grandmother (b. 1911) had 12. However she wasn't just a baby factory. My grandfather ran a bakery and farmed. My grandmother could butcher hogs and lasso a cow too. She plowed the fields right next to grandpa. This was in addition to housewife duties and she helped my grandpa with the bakery. She worked just as hard as he did and did it all while being pregnant or having a nursing baby every two years until menopause. 

I'll leave this thread alone now because its supposed to be about why men would want to get married. It's just very annoying to read myths about unappreciative women being babied and coddled by men who were only trying to protect them from the harsh world. 

Via con dios. 




bribrius said:


> sadly, women actually had a high mortality rate from child birth. And everyone wanted more children because the children had a high mortality rate so not all would survive. without birth control they would have had to have children anyway unless they were doing closet abortions which were somewhat frowned on when you are trying to have children and the children werent surviving. Needed more children to run the family farm or put to work in the later years for the good of the family in general. Im not saying women had it easy. They were basically baby factories. They put out ten, fifteen children perhaps who knows. Minus some miscarriages and early child hood deaths they didnt end up with all of them so they were kind of expected to keep giving birth. Please dont take this the wrong way. Life was hard on everyone im not trying to make is seem like women had it made by any means. I actually think your husband should have been given jail time if he was a abusive drunk who didnt support his family.
> 
> Nothing really to do with why men should get married however....


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## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

bribrius said:


> As in the way relations are these days. What benefit does a man have in getting married ?
> 
> It once meant exclusive rights to offspring. Doesnt now. Guys more likely to be made to support someone elses offspring or to be held from seeing their own and still having to pay for them.
> Once meant the woman was limited as far as affairs. Now women can have any affair they want.
> ...


I experienced each of the issues you describe for the "modern" marriage for 20 years.
My biggest regret is that I was too absorbed in providing for her and "our" children that I grew to not expect anything in the way of contribution to the program, from her.
Why do men marry?
They fall for the fairy tale version of life and some (me) are too stupid to realize it isn't always true.
Get married again? NEVER


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

PinkBeret said:


> You know what else is the problem?
> 
> Husbands and wives let too many strangers pitch in about their marriage.
> 
> Back in the day, there is no internet for anyone to ask for marital advice. And husbands and wives found ways to work it out.


 I have to agree. I like reading various views, but I'm the type of person who always makes his own decisions. I always weigh in all comments, but I always own the decision. Some people, however, are very impressionable. If they go in confused and seeking comfort, they may go with the first comments that sound good, and it may not be what they need. Heck, if i took to heart all the comments her, I'd be leaving my shopping cart in the middle of the isle, using the Wal-Mart express lane with a full cart, and relocating to New York City all in hopes of attracting women.:rofl:

I think there is some "general" advice that can fit most people, but I think cultural differences can make a difference, and i think that applies to most everything. I'm on a farming forum, for example, and one guy's signature reads, "My thoughts only; don't bet your farm on it." We have an understanding that what makes a Texas farm 100% efficient, may not work so well in Pennsylvania. 

Even on a local level, I think people can allow outside influences to lead them in directions they don't need. I am thoroughly convinced that my x wife allowed some people, that she normally wouldn't have taken their advice on what brand of gum to buy, to influence her decision to divorce. I think it's natural that people will go with a crowd that supports their beliefs, and in this day and time, one can find just about any crowd they desire. My x changed the advice crowds that she had relied on for advice in other situations because they tried to convince her not to divorce, so she found a crowd that pleased her.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

My husband and I got married for the same reasons. Because we love each other, we want to spend our lives together and we wanted to make a public statement and commitment.

We've been married ten years, together more than 20. Being married to me means my husband gets to live with someone who loves him, supports him and who looks after our children in the way we both think is best. We work together to create and maintain a strong and loving family. He will grow older surrounded by love and people who care about him devotedly. He will probably live longer than if he were single, that's statistically likely. He will never have to worry about me leaving, or cheating or refusing to have sex with him because I love him and I honour our wedding vows. 

I think all that is more than worth getting married for.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

hookares said:


> I experienced each of the issues you describe for the "modern" marriage for 20 years.
> My biggest regret is that I was too absorbed in providing for her and "our" children that I grew to not expect anything in the way of contribution to the program, from her.
> Why do men marry?
> They fall for the fairy tale version of life and some (me) are too stupid to realize it isn't always true.
> Get married again? NEVER


i do a status check on my wife occasionally now. I used to not really care what she did, so this is a good thing. As odd as that sounds. I play "check the wife" partly through her day to day responsibilities, partly through her attitude and how loving she is. Like a checklist.
how are the kids
how is the house
is she keeping up with things.
how is her attitude. how is she acting.
is she happy or not...(i actually like to see her glow if you follow).
i ask her to do a few tasks, take care of something as simple as maybe paying the cable bill or sorting through one of our kids clothes to see what should be disguarded so i know if we need to buy more clothes for them. Maybe contacting someone over something like i asked her to call the insurance company to see why our property insurance went up the other day. Run to the bank for me. whatever. And go through a list of things with her to see what she has done. If things arent done i ask why. Not that i care necessarily about the actual thing, but rather i care about what would have made her not do it or stopped her from doing it. Its like a mental game of "check on the wife".
Ask her what she did today (the kids will verify most of it anyway) and let her talk. Actually learn more just letting her talk.
and in true guy form, if i say "sweetie can you come here for a minute?" does she drop what she is doing and come over.....
if any of those things are amiss i stop and reevaluate to figure out what is going on....
Not only do i check the trade off (make sure im getting what i want and evaluate) im actually checking her....
When i walk in the house what are her and the kids doing? usually im met at the door, sometimes soon as i drive in the driveway. Often she will meet come straight to me for a kiss or cuddle. If the house is more sullen, i know something is wrong.
the two oldest kids are the biggest flag on check the wife. Something she does wrong, or something she doesnt do she should they run to me to rat her out... Followed by her own family. Her own family will rat her out to me. course many times, the kids are coming to me to complain about her when i actually think she is too easy on the kids so it doesnt do them any good at all, just informs me of something THEY did wrong i didnt know. oh, the mental family games we all play......:scratchhead:

my poor wife gets to play check the wife with me, my family, her own family, the children. her status is updated like a thermometer. It isnt a bad thing though. I used to seriously just not pay enough attention to her. if something is amiss i hope to catch it. Maybe wifey is over exhausted, maybe she needs a break from the kids. Just overwhelmed. Maybe its time for her to go get her nails done or something to spoil herself. Maybe its just she is starting her monthly. LOL So its a good thing in alot of ways because i can keep tabs on her.....
unrelated, but i hope to avoid what you apparently went through. i keep a list of expectations for her, though i have let up on her some the longer we have been together. i used to be a bit overzealous and i dont think i ever let her relax and be herself. Im more reasonable now and less like a drill instructor...LOL
But i still have a family responsibility list on the fridge, and each member but the baby has a copy. it is a outline of a day to day duties and responsibilities for the "operation of the household"...
Anal i know, but it actually gave the wife more pull with our daughter to get her to do chores. so it helped the wife out more. we all have our responsibilities on the sheet. i wrote it as a corporate memo .


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

Lyris said:


> My husband and I got married for the same reasons. Because we love each other, we want to spend our lives together and we wanted to make a public statement and commitment.
> 
> We've been married ten years, together more than 20. Being married to me means my husband gets to live with someone who loves him, supports him and who looks after our children in the way we both think is best. We work together to create and maintain a strong and loving family. He will grow older surrounded by love and people who care about him devotedly. He will probably live longer than if he were single, that's statistically likely. He will never have to worry about me leaving, or cheating or refusing to have sex with him because I love him and I honour our wedding vows.
> 
> ...


that is. you think most people (women) are like that nowadays though?


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

Lyris said:


> My husband and I got married for the same reasons. Because we love each other, we want to spend our lives together and we wanted to make a public statement and commitment.
> 
> We've been married ten years, together more than 20. Being married to me means my husband gets to live with someone who loves him, supports him and who looks after our children in the way we both think is best. We work together to create and maintain a strong and loving family. He will grow older surrounded by love and people who care about him devotedly. He will probably live longer than if he were single, that's statistically likely. He will never have to worry about me leaving, or cheating or refusing to have sex with him because I love him and I honour our wedding vows.
> 
> ...


I think those are great reasons to get married and I am happy that you have such a great marriage. If we all had the promise of that, it would be great. I thought i had it, and married for basically the reasons you described. Now that I'm divorced, however, that brought an end to the fairytale and I no longer feel much of a need for marriage again.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Kathrynthegreat said:


> Heck, I'm a woman and trying to figure out why I'd want to get married. So far I'm not coming up with anything.


I'm with you on that one, Kathryn. I got divorced many years ago and have never been tempted to repeat it. 

It's not just men who get the sh**ty end of the stick, OP. I got to bring up our child alone, hold down (at times) 3 jobs in order to support us AND got taken for a ride financially... Never again!


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

Cosmos said:


> I'm with you on that one, Kathryn. I got divorced many years ago and have never been tempted to repeat it.
> 
> It's not just men who get the sh**ty end of the stick, OP. I got to bring up our child alone, hold down (at times) 3 jobs in order to support us AND got taken for a ride financially... Never again!


i dont blame you. what is in it for a woman? Beyond love. think in the transaction sense.....
i


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

bribrius said:


> i dont blame you. what is in it for a woman? Beyond love. think in the transaction sense.....
> i


Sorry, OP, over 25 years later I'm not coming up with anything


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

Cosmos said:


> Sorry, OP, over 25 years later I'm not coming up with anything


so other than children, you wouldnt see any benefits to being married? Or even with children, you dont see the benefits of being married?
_Nothing_ for a woman to gain? i thought it was usually the woman demanding or pushing for marriage from the guy?  
i always thought guys would be more apt to opt out of being married than women...


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## wittyusername (Jul 30, 2012)

To have children.

That's the only reason I could come up with. Otherwise, I would have been fine dating.


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## Kathrynthegreat (Apr 23, 2012)

bribrius said:


> so other than children, you wouldnt see any benefits to being married? Or even with children, you dont see the benefits of being married?
> _Nothing_ for a woman to gain? i thought it was usually the woman demanding or pushing for marriage from the guy?
> i always thought guys would be more apt to opt out of being married than women...


Nope. Got married once, fresh out of high school because it was the thing to do it our small town. Now I'm divorced, attractive, good income, homeowner, no desire whatsoever for kids, and I can't figure out why I'd want to get married again. The funny thing about people is that we're individuals, regardless of gender. Not all women want one thing, any more than all men want one thing. 


Oh wait, all men do want one thing. :smthumbup:


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

wittyusername said:


> To have children.
> 
> That's the only reason I could come up with. Otherwise, I would have been fine dating.


makes sense. if i hadnt knocked up my wife years ago im sure i never would have married her. Not a personal thing, i dont think i wanted to marry anyone, ever. i just didnt want a serious relationship with a woman. considered it nothing but a headache. Didnt see the trade off.

But who knows. if i had decided i REALLY wanted children i might have married one. 
But it would have been cheaper to pay a woman to have my children and just give them to me than actually marry a woman. But if you go with a uterus donor if you could find one(kind of like a sperm donor) you are stuck being a single parent.................
Friend of mine let his wife help out a woman by having a baby for her and her husband. her egg, husbands sperm. she couldnt carry it. suppose i could find buy a egg and my own sperm and have her carry one for me for ten grand + medical exp. 
how much does a egg cost?
That might actually be the final dissolution in the notion of marriage. Being able to have your own kids without handing over a ring...


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

Kathrynthegreat said:


> Nope. Got married once, fresh out of high school because it was the thing to do it our small town. Now I'm divorced, attractive, good income, homeowner, no desire whatsoever for kids, and I can't figure out why I'd want to get married again. The funny thing about people is that we're individuals, regardless of gender. Not all women want one thing, any more than all men want one thing.
> 
> 
> *Oh wait, all men do want one thing*. :smthumbup:


yeah, _variety_. one of the things we give up becoming married. VARIETY. 
giving up variety is worth something. And then we have to become responsible, dependable, and the worst thing of all CARING. we have to care, or at least pretend to care and try to make it believable. Pretend to be sympathetic, empathetic, something. Not sure but it involves caring and the little kittens i mention below. And peace and quiet, the right to be left alone. But we give that up too for the most part. sometimes i can just sit here and watch my wife talk. she might as well get a pet rock. im not complaining, i love her, but she could talk to a pet rock just as well sometimes. But i have to listen if i dont it could be worse...
Also the right to not answer a womans phone call or listen to her. That is worth something. women always want us men to listen. To what exactly i wasnt always sure but we try to listen anyway and make sense out of it. But in a marriage that right to not listen doesnt go over well, nor does the variety thing......
Not to mention we have to deal with our spouses family and her "i love kittens" type of mentality. That type of thing really screws with a guys head. Im currently sitting in my living room, which has those live laugh live love borders on the wall. My wifes decorating. see the thing i deal with?
she takes twenty five dollar a gallon paint and sticks stickers on it just because the stickers are "cute and make her feel warm and fuzzy" i guess.. Like borders and wallpaper is special and wasnt outdated thirty years ago.
she plants flowers, i run them over with the lawn mower. Not intentionally but if they arent in bloom they look pretty much like any other weed. i dont get the point of them anyway they just die and then she has to replant them next year.. Things like this screws with a guys head. I like some of the decorating, dont get me wrong. it turns the house into a "home". But it sure is her "home" i would never do it or prefer some of it im a big fan of plain walls and a simple off white on everything.
You know she used to put hearts on everything like over i's? cute, but it has its limitations. I have to watch the mailing labels she puts on our stuff, she finds pretty cute cuddly type things and i have to kind of censor to keep them off the more official type mail. Christmas cards. she sends out like two hundred of them. some of these people i dont even know. But she sends them a card. i have no idea why. Now i used to do this for business, customer contact. But none of these are customers and i shut down that business years ago. i have no idea who all these people are i suppose we knew them or she knew them. i dont know them now. But i buy them a christmas card every year.......
just giving some examples......

so i just had to ask. why would a guy get married? And started this thread. i see what i get for dealing with it. I know the kids are mine, she watches them, keeps up the house. Pretty much will do what i ask her. But for most. im not sure they would want to deal with a woman and get married. women can really screw with a guys head. We are simple creatures. whats the trade.......


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

bribrius said:


> how much does a egg cost?
> That might actually be the final dissolution in the notion of marriage. Being able to have your own kids without handing over a ring...


And who will raise the child(ren)? Who will get up for all those night feedings, and the times the baby wakes in pain from teething? Who will stay home all day b/c the child is sick (and young kids get sick a lot, even if they aren't in daycare)? Who is going to take off the time to go to school conferences, or run the little tyke here and there for enrichment programs? Who will refuse promotions b/c someone needs to be home, or refuse most work-related travel for the same reason? 

Making a baby isn't so tough (in fact, some people have been known to enjoy it). It's the next 20 years that are the hard part.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Bribrius, it sounds like you have pretty much no respect for your wife's abilities, taste or priorities. And you're extending your view of her to women in general.

Well, I'm a woman. I know lots of other women. Not one of them fits the kind of description you have given here. 

And the micro managing and checking up on her via your kids and her family...does she have some kind of disability? Has she shown herself to be incapable in the past? I just can't imagine this, the thought of my husband giving me tasks to do and then ticking them off...no wonder you feel burdened. 

As for my view of marriage, I'd say most people I know share it. My parents have that kind of marriage, my grandparents do. Several of my uncles and aunts, lots of my friends. More good marriages than bad in my world. 

We've given up variety for a really deep, loyal, life long connection. My husband and I fell in love at 18, we have just turned 40. I love marching through the years, hand in hand with the person who knows me best. 

And of course, statistically, our kids will do better coming from a happy, intact home, so that's very important to both of us.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

sisters359 said:


> And who will raise the child(ren)? Who will get up for all those night feedings, and the times the baby wakes in pain from teething? Who will stay home all day b/c the child is sick (and young kids get sick a lot, even if they aren't in daycare)? Who is going to take off the time to go to school conferences, or run the little tyke here and there for enrichment programs? Who will refuse promotions b/c someone needs to be home, or refuse most work-related travel for the same reason?
> 
> Making a baby isn't so tough (in fact, some people have been known to enjoy it). It's the next 20 years that are the hard part.


okay. you are sounding hostile like my wife did when i said it would have been cheaper for me to buy a wife overseas from asia. (which i really wasnt serious i was trying to be funny but she didnt think i was very funny. she was also appalled that people still sold wives and you could by one. she didnt know that, but that is another topic entirely.)

in answer to your question, i would think a woman doing this would be a large part of the trade off. what a man gains. All are beneficial to the children and therefore the husband. My wife actually does these things. But many women dont want to do this anymore. Now they want 50/50 whatever that is. Probably from a guys perspective it would really be 20/80 and not in the guys favor. I have a feeling what many women are offering now, men simply have no need for. For instance, unless i quit my job and decide to sit home and play video games i dont need a wife to work and support me. So a career girl isnt really of much use to me personally. If i worked for eight bucks a hour in a fast food restaurant a career girl would be useful. But i dont work fast food, i dont play video games all day. So i really didnt need a career girl. At one point i wanted one anyway because i was simply money hungry and wanted more. But didnt really NEED one. I also kind of wanted one so she had her own life and to put it blunt left me the hell alone for the most part. i didnt want a relationship then, i wanted another income source to add to what i had. But that isnt really a positive relationship probably. so a stay at home mother/wife was MUCH more beneficial to me personally on a real level, as i also wanted offspring and i just simply didnt want to deal with the day to day of a household. Other guys have their own reasons i suppose, for who they choose or what they want.
Many women dont want to be a sahm now, anyways. so most guys must just be going for the money with the career girls. To gain more money. Do you think that is why guys still get married? i dont see another reason for marriage.....
If the woman doesnt want to be home with children, they dont want to be a traditional wife, then the guy must be going through with the marriage to increase household income and betting the career girl wife will supplement household income to some extent. maybe????


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Maybe because life's more fun if you have someone you love to share it with?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

Lyris said:


> Bribrius, it sounds like you have pretty much no respect for your wife's abilities, taste or priorities. And you're extending your view of her to women in general.
> 
> Well, I'm a woman. I know lots of other women. Not one of them fits the kind of description you have given here.
> 
> ...


no. But i have put alot on her plate in the past. she isnt in the position of you average sahm what i give her for responsibilities exceeds that. I have also not paid enough attention to her before, missed some things she was upset about and should have caught. disability no. i do think some of her tastes in decorating sucks. But that is another matter. Her priorities used to be highly questionable, but i haven somewhat straightened them out.
your average sahm wouldnt make it with me. To be honest. Our house and financial responsibilities, what we handle, is beyond a normal household. what she handles is beyond most normal wives. Most women i dated i never would have picked for the job. Nor could they have done it. im also p.o.a over parents accounts, family money (my side of the family) multiple propertys. ive had two businesses, and a job. Rentals. this isnt a normal sahm position she is filling. i can pull it off but thats me, many people cant. she struggles with part of it at times but trys to take some of it off me. After a couple breakdowns where she was seriously overwhelmed, i have slowly taken back the stuff. Im better off doing it myself anyway she was having too many problems that proved costly for the finances as well as overwhelming her. When you realize your wife is overwhelmed and getting screwed up, you start paying attention. And she was just pretending she was something she wasnt. I actually probably should have left her with the fuzzy thoughts and bunny rabbits but i hoped to bring her out of that world a tad. But she isnt that way which i should have known when we had a tenant eviction she couldnt do it and had to back out and i took over. she just doesnt have the mentality to run things. Kind of when Actually i pretty much handled all the legal and evictions she would be too personally involved and not legal or fair to tenants or feel bad for them and have too much sympathy. we had to put the last dog down. i did it. she couldnt do it. Same idea.
micro manage? i used to not care what she did. until i realized i probably should. Before it was like business. i yelled at her when she messed up, paid for it and bailed out the situation. Basically bailed out her finances on occasion as well as whatever she messed up on the overall. And moved on to the next issue. So me micromanaging and doing a wife check is a good thing. Otherwise she would be cracking and i wouldnt know the difference i would be oblivious. i would also be kissing away another twenty k or whatever on whatever she wasn messing up while she was cracking from being overwhelmed. Been there, done it, many times. This point all is out of her hands but the tasks i ask her to do. she isnt involved that deep anymore she didnt want to be anyway.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

You literally said in another post that you married her because you didn't want her to be viewed as your and I quote "concubine". Why you got married is anybodies guess given you had a slave woman at your disposal. Should have just rolled with it. 
You are smart to keep a former concubine off the family till and keep all money to yourself. Smart man not having her name on anything. What kind of man would? 
At Davos, George Soros was asked by some reporter what ROI means to him. Soros responded "Nobody gets a return unless they invest". The reporter rolled his eyes and said "Tell us something we don't already know about economics". George Soros replied "I wasn't talking about money".
You could learn from him but I have my doubts.


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

notice i also said "family money". i actually still have to pay my parents accounts back eight k from my wifes last mistake. Thanks for the reminder.  I cover whatever she does wrong. My wife, my responsibility. Technically she probably shouldnt be doing it anyway the responsibility is assigned to me. Parents gave it to me. Its their lawyer that set it up going to me. its me on the paperwork. And everything we own has me on it as well. wife isnt on anything but one of the cars. so its really all my responsibility and not really her issue.

But that wasnt one of the reasons i had for getting married so it is off topic......


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

bribrius said:


> makes sense. if i hadnt knocked up my wife years ago im sure i never would have married her. Not a personal thing, i dont think i wanted to marry anyone, ever. i just didnt want a serious relationship with a woman. considered it nothing but a headache. Didnt see the trade off.
> 
> But who knows. if i had decided i REALLY wanted children i might have married one.
> But it would have been cheaper to pay a woman to have my children and just give them to me than actually marry a woman. But if you go with a uterus donor if you could find one(kind of like a sperm donor) you are stuck being a single parent.................
> ...


Then you would have been a single parent with no help in raising them. Your career would have suffered because you would have to do it all yourself. Then there is the cost of day care, etc.

And there is the cost of counseling that you might need for the child since we know that being in a one parent home is very hard on the kids...


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> You said you married her because you didn't want her to be thought of as a concubine. Those are your literal words. What's the question again?


True. She is much more presentable as a wife as well. Makes a great wife in many ways.
why would a guy want to get married is the question. i know why i did. not sure why most guys would bother.
or women for that matter. Have some great responses in this thread so far....
i should put this topic on a blog and do some research to go with it with some of your opinions.  
call it "the trade offs of marriage and decline of marriage. whats in marriage for you?"


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Then you would have been a single parent with no help in raising them. Your career would have suffered because you would have to do it all yourself. Then there is the cost of day care, etc.
> 
> And there is the cost of counseling that you might need for the child since we know that being in a one parent home is very hard on the kids...


your killing me ele. you know that right?
You assume a couple things though. 
a. in marriage a man will have help raising them.
b. in marriage a man is guaranteed a sahm.
c. the effects of a single parent home is detrimental enough on that particuliar child to warrant counseling.


Are most women going to offer to be a sahm? If they arent and want to work then it throws your theory out the window doesnt it?


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> You literally said in another post that you married her because you didn't want her to be viewed as your and I quote "concubine". Why you got married is anybodies guess given you had a slave woman at your disposal. Should have just rolled with it.
> You are smart to keep a former concubine off the family till and keep all money to yourself. Only stupid men treat women as equals. Afterall, you are the guy and women cannot manage money. They are dumb and need the guidance of men. So tell me, George Soros, how much ROI are you getting?


wouldnt go that far. geesh. i did have a prenup but she refused to resign. Since she didnt resign now it would be a court nightmare in divorce. Before she had a flat liquid cash out, asset cashout, guaranteed support for a year. Dont even know what it would be now....
Dont really matter either im not planning divorce. Im also somewhat religous, do the right thing. Appearances and how i introduce her is important to me. And she earned her ring. Give the woman her ring she earned it. geesh.
The family till really isnt a laughing matter. its huge accountability and responsibility. i have been reamed out by my family from other things my wife did that affected that family till on more than one occasion. They reamed her out as well. she crossed some lines there, that probably werent even legal. Like borrowing from accounts that wasnt even hers to be "borrowing" from before to make up for deficits elsewhere because she was afraid to tell me she lost money in our finances. so she basically took from the greater families finances. Thats not even legal. i had to pay that back a.s.a.p and took a ration of **** from her doing that. Lucky the family attorney didnt haul me into his office. I could be in serious crap for something like that. Either its fraud or stealing, something. take you pick. That amount it probably wouldnt be a minor thing either and my names on everything. she was forging my name trying to cover for her mistakes. One of the accounts was flagged at the bank once, but i managed to get out of it. i could have been in serious deep doo doo. Never mind a irs audit if it wasnt all put back. Any money out is taxable its over a gift allotment. so i would have been twice nailed for not paying taxes on it as well, if i hadnt noticed what had happend.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

What kind of man are you if you couldn't get your concubine to sign a pre-nup? Geesh.


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> What kind of man are you if you couldn't get your concubine to sign a pre-nup? Geesh.


right!!!! 
she did actually sign. problem is she only signed it BEFORE MARRIAGE. it has to be updated. so she has to resign. she wont resign the damn thing. lol. She should have resigned twice already at a minimum. Once after each new child was born. It is supposed to be amended.
Told me if i dont plan on getting divorced, and she doesnt believe in divorce, then i shouldnt need the prenup re-signed. so she just basically says NO.
im calling my lawyer about that and asking him what exactly the deal is if she just wont resign the prenup and whatever the amendment is he needs to add.. Because i seriously dont see her doing it. She just wont. i think she is using it as a ploy to make sure i stay with her or something....like a veiled threat.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

bribrius said:


> your killing me ele. you know that right?
> You assume a couple things though.
> a. in marriage a man will have help raising them.
> b. in marriage a man is guaranteed a sahm.
> ...


Your scenario of paying a woman to have a baby that she then turns over to you and walks away assumes a lot. Basically it assumes that the man will save a lot of money because the mother of the children is not around. My response was to point out that he's not going to really save all that much because now he will most likely have to pay someone to do things that the children's mother would do. His career would most likely suffer as well.

I have a family that was created in a manner not far from what you described. I have one adopted son (23), a step-daughter (23) and a step-son (25). I basically raised them by myself. Even my step-children has birth-parents who did not care enough to help raise them.

I am quite aware of what it costs to raise children with no help from the other parent. I’m also aware of how much it hurts one’s career. I had to turn down promotions because I could not travel, could not work the hours, etc. 

If I had had the help of another adult, even a working adult, I know that my life and career would have been very different.


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## Juicer (May 2, 2012)

_What kind of man are you if you couldn't get your concubine to sign a pre-nup?_

Answer:
A Man playing Russian Roulette with his finances.


I just stumbled onto this page, and after reading it, and going through my own problems, here is what I believe:

In today's typical/traditional marriage, a working husband, and home maker wife, here is the trade:

In marriage, a man is giving a woman, his heart, and his wallet. Meaning: his love and protection, and his resources. 

Woman give their men their heart, and their bodies. Meaning, their love and comforting abilities, and obviously, sex. 

Marriage was a way for men to feel loved and get their sexual needs met, and it was providing and protection for women. 


Today though, we live in a divorce culture. 
I am so glad I got a prenup. If I didn't, and if I go through with divorce, I probably would've lost the house (which I paid for), and I would've been told to hand over at least 20% of my pay checks to my ex. And if she wanted to, she could get and have a boyfriend move in with her, and have me footing the bill every step of the way. 


I wish I would never have to use the prenup I made my wife sign. But I told her, I don't trust judges or lawyers who make decisions about these kinds of things. 

I think both sexes need to be responsible for marriage. Personally, I would never tell anyone to get married, (heck, after this problem I am facing, I would tell them stay away from the institution all together):

Men need to be smart enough to find a wife that: won't cheat on them, or take them to the cleaners, or do any of the other things women can LEGALLY do to a man. 

And women need to be smart enough to find a GOOD MAN. I am so tired of hearing about how every single woman's ex is a jerk. If he was a jerk, why did you marry him?! Why did you have his kids? Why are you choosing a man, that is irresponsible to procreate with? Don't pick those men! Find others!!!


*But I did think of a reason for a man to marry:*
Someone needs a green card


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

Juicer said:


> _What kind of man are you if you couldn't get your concubine to sign a pre-nup?_
> 
> Answer:
> A Man playing Russian Roulette with his finances.
> ...


uhh oh. check your state laws bud. Like with me, i need mine amended. Family and finances change. Legally it is supposed to be amended and she needs to resign. Partly because of the state we were married in and the prenup was done in. It makes a difference. Not sure what state you are in but i would check how it works and the court recognition of your prenup. Property outside the state im also not sure of, and how that state recognizes the prenup. It could be possible for one state to look at it one way, and another to look at it another way. Where the asset is, and that state may also be a issue. i always wondered on that, but never checked. Kind of hoped any divorce outcome would be the final and that was it but suppose anything can have a wrench thrown into it. This is where lawyers earn their money. Protecting your ass)ets and lifes work.


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## Juicer (May 2, 2012)

I was hoping you would be happy I found a reason for a man to get married.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Juicer said:


> _What kind of man are you if you couldn't get your concubine to sign a pre-nup?_
> 
> Answer:
> A Man playing Russian Roulette with his finances.
> ...


If you couldn't see the mockery in which I posted the concubine comment, well here's your sign.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Where do you people live? Where I live, women work. Handing over a wallet? Yeah, get over yourself. I know more women earning more money than their husbands (mine excluded) and they aren't stripping for it. They are lawyers, doctors and engineers. You want to know what I find amazing, the very same men who don't like "gold diggers" hate women with education. They feel small to them and cannot stand it. So which is it? A woman who can support herself or a gold digger as it seems you hate them all.
> God, who let the dogs out?


After my divorce in 1996 I dated a guy who I'd known in high school for a while (a short while). He had been married once, no children. 

As I got to know him better it became clear that he had a real chip on his shoulder about the topic that women were only after him for money. He'd make all kinds of comments that sound like some of these posts.

The funny thing is that he was retired early from the Navy. I don't know how much he got in retirement but did finally ask since he made it such a topic. His response was $1200 a month.

It was hard to not laugh at him... I make 10 times that. I knew some of the other women he dated. THey all made many times more than he. None of them were after his stupid money. But he'd heard this nonsense so many times apparently that he believed it.

I quit dating him as I could not take his anger over how women rip men off. Especially since he clearly stated in the next breath that he was looking for a woman with a good income to marry but did not want to put a penny of his income into the marriage community. Nor did he ever want to get a job. And he felt that it was wrong for his potential wife to expect him to do things like maintain the house and yard. He was about 48 at the time. He just wanted to live off some woman. I dumped him.


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> After my divorce in 1996 I dated a guy who I'd known in high school for a while (a short while). He had been married once, no children.
> 
> As I got to know him better it became clear that he had a real chip on his shoulder about the topic that women were only after him for money. He'd make all kinds of comments that sound like some of these posts.
> 
> ...


unless he was holding out on you. Maybe he had some things you didnt know about?? 
It is unlikely anyone will tell you (especially dating) exactly what assets or income they have. It just isnt something you immediatley disclose for obvious reasons.


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

The question should be why would a girl want to get married to bribrius. 

Clearly it's because women hold such little value that they would be falling all over themselves to marry someone so wonderful, insightful and intelligent.:scratchhead:

Why didn't you just pay someone to carry your children as you suggested earlier? I am sure you could have done all the nurturing single handedly whilst keeping your career in fine form. Uh no wait I forgot the nanny option. Because there is no substitute for a mother like a nanny.  On that note why even have children? What value are they? Other then love, companionship, fun etc Damn children, they will suck your time and resources dry. 

I suspect your wife may wake up one day and discover that you are lacking in some very important qualities yourself. 

Some being insight, empathy, love, compassion.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

bribrius said:


> unless he was holding out on you. Maybe he had some things you didnt know about??
> It is unlikely anyone will tell you (especially dating) exactly what assets or income they have. It just isnt something you immediatley disclose for obvious reasons.


Often times in life we have to deal with people according to what they will reveal. 

This is a guy who wanted to get serious with me. Since we were friends in high school the friendship later in live moved a lot faster than one normally would. If he was not telling me the truth than it was because he was dishonest on top of it all.

Some history.. he was the weird guy in our highly school. I was the only girl who would talk to him, much less be his friend. We used to go on motorcycle rides and spend time together. Nothing sexual.. well I was not sexual in high school at all... dated a lot of guys and just had a good time.


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Often times in life we have to deal with people according to what they will reveal.
> 
> This is a guy who wanted to get serious with me. Since we were friends in high school the friendship later in live moved a lot faster than one normally would. If he was not telling me the truth than it was because he was dishonest on top of it all.
> 
> Some history.. he was the weird guy in our highly school. I was the only girl who would talk to him, much less be his friend. We used to go on motorcycle rides and spend time together. Nothing sexual.. well I was not sexual in high school at all... dated a lot of guys and just had a good time.


i must be dishonest. been with my wife thirteen years and she still doesnt know exactly every thing we have for assets. She knows most everything. couple things i just never disclosed. i seriously just figure they mostly came from me, it isnt really her business for the most part or her problem. Need to know basis.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

Check the wife?
Dang!
If I have a problem or need my nails done I don't need a man to tell me so, I can advocate for myself. lol.


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## Ayla (Aug 24, 2011)

What's the point of mocking your wife for having the qualities that made you pick her in the first place? You said you have no use for an ambitious career minded woman. So you picked a woman who was submissive and not interested in working outside the home and then you make fun of her for being exactly what she is?

Every woman isn't into the fluffy cutsey stuff but the more submissive and feminine the woman the more fluff you have to deal with. You want an ultra feminine soft submissive woman that you will mold into thinking and acting like a man because female stuff is silly to you?

Why can't you accept her for what she is without being so condescending? From what you posted you should be happy that you got what you wanted in the wife Dept. 





bribrius said:


> yeah, _variety_. one of the things we give up becoming married. VARIETY.
> giving up variety is worth something. And then we have to become responsible, dependable, and the worst thing of all CARING. we have to care, or at least pretend to care and try to make it believable. Pretend to be sympathetic, empathetic, something. Not sure but it involves caring and the little kittens i mention below. And peace and quiet, the right to be left alone. But we give that up too for the most part. sometimes i can just sit here and watch my wife talk. she might as well get a pet rock. im not complaining, i love her, but she could talk to a pet rock just as well sometimes. But i have to listen if i dont it could be worse...
> Also the right to not answer a womans phone call or listen to her. That is worth something. women always want us men to listen. To what exactly i wasnt always sure but we try to listen anyway and make sense out of it. But in a marriage that right to not listen doesnt go over well, nor does the variety thing......
> Not to mention we have to deal with our spouses family and her "i love kittens" type of mentality. That type of thing really screws with a guys head. Im currently sitting in my living room, which has those live laugh live love borders on the wall. My wifes decorating. see the thing i deal with?
> ...


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## Kathrynthegreat (Apr 23, 2012)

bribrius said:


> yeah, _variety_. one of the things we give up becoming married. VARIETY.


It was a joke, dude. Calm down.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

bribrius said:


> makes sense. if i hadnt knocked up my wife years ago im sure i never would have married her. Not a personal thing, i dont think i wanted to marry anyone, ever. i just didnt want a serious relationship with a woman. considered it nothing but a headache. Didnt see the trade off.
> 
> But who knows. if i had decided i REALLY wanted children i might have married one.
> But it would have been cheaper to pay a woman to have my children and just give them to me than actually marry a woman. But if you go with a uterus donor if you could find one(kind of like a sperm donor) you are stuck being a single parent.................
> ...


I only had one child, OP, and would have liked more children. However, I'm of the opinion that children need two parents and I wouldn't have been so selfish as to satisfy my maternal desires at the expense of a child.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

bribrius said:


> i do a status check on my wife occasionally now. I used to not really care what she did, so this is a good thing. As odd as that sounds. I play "check the wife" partly through her day to day responsibilities, partly through her attitude and how loving she is. Like a checklist.
> how are the kids
> how is the house
> is she keeping up with things.
> ...


This sounds like the attitude you would adopt with a nanny or a babysitter. If my husband had that attitude toward me, ("check the wife") I don't think I could stay at home with our children. I enjoy staying home with them, and I appreciate how hard he works to make it happen. But it is a sacrifice for me as well. I gave up my career out of graduate school (I work part-time from home) to stay home with our children while they are young. 

If this is your attitude toward marriage, I certainly don't see any benefits either (for the husband OR the wife).


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## JJG (Mar 9, 2011)

This thread has horrified me! Some of the comments here talk about women as second class citizens or worse!

There is nothing wrong with having old fashioned values as long as there is respect. OP you come across as have absolutely no respect for your wife, how do you expect to have a healthy marriage? Simply Amorous, from everything I have read on these boards your relationship works so well with your old fashioned values because of the respect you both have for each other and value the other persons contribution to your life. 

Some men’s comments on this board do make me roll my eyes. They want to marry a virgin, then wonder why their wife doesn’t enjoy sex. But they don’t want to marry a woman who enjoys sex and has sex regularly because she is a ****. They want a wife who is submissive and defers to them but then when it goes wrong and they divorce they want a self sufficient woman who can take care of herself and HER kids. 

Everyone s individual, sweeping statements like ‘women do this’ and ‘men do that’ are just ignorant and ridiculous. It also sounds like you are blaming society for you choosing an incompatible partner.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

bribrius said:


> i must be dishonest. been with my wife thirteen years and she still doesnt know exactly every thing we have for assets. She knows most everything. couple things i just never disclosed. i seriously just figure they mostly came from me, it isnt really her business for the most part or her problem. Need to know basis.


If there are assets that are your from prior to the the marriage, inheretance, etc., then if you do not want to disclose them that's your choice.

If it's community assets and income, and you don't disclose them to your wife... that's pretty bad.

What I'm seeing in this post is a man who does not appreciate his wife's contribution to the marital community.


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> If there are assets that are your from prior to the the marriage, inheretance, etc., then if you do not want to disclose them that's your choice.
> 
> If it's community assets and income, and you don't disclose them to your wife... that's pretty bad.
> 
> What I'm seeing in this post is a man who does not appreciate his wife's contribution to the marital community.


all comes down to needs. what is returned. What one values something at and ideals. Best interests. Getting beyond that you are accepting other peoples ideals and beliefs. i dont think going down that road is wise. Or following societal preconceived notions that arent your own. It means you are settling or being made a sheep and follower..

bahhhh
bahhhh
nope. i make a bad sheep.
Good topic though. There are reasons for marriage listed. I dont feel like going through and finding them in the thread and posting them. Anyone feel like consolidating the reasons listed in this thread into one post so it is a little more clear and concise?


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

Ayla said:


> What's the point of mocking your wife for having the qualities that made you pick her in the first place? You said you have no use for an ambitious career minded woman. So you picked a woman who was submissive and not interested in working outside the home and then you make fun of her for being exactly what she is?
> 
> Every woman isn't into the fluffy cutsey stuff but the more submissive and feminine the woman the more fluff you have to deal with. You want an ultra feminine soft submissive woman that you will mold into thinking and acting like a man because female stuff is silly to you?
> 
> Why can't you accept her for what she is without being so condescending? From what you posted you should be happy that you got what you wanted in the wife Dept.


i cant argue this. you are right. My wife actually told me last week i should be happy with what i have and that "most men would kill to have what you have".
so i probably should lighten up eh? 
i dont think i can help it though. i just always seem to want more.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

bribrius said:


> i cant argue this. you are right. My wife actually told me last week i should be happy with what i have and that "most men would kill to have what you have".
> so i probably should lighten up eh?
> i dont think i can help it though. i just always seem to want more.


Yea you should be happy... that you found someone who buys into your view of marriage...


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Yea you should be happy... that you found someone who buys into your view of marriage...


why wouldnt she? she hasn't had a damn thing to worry about since she was eighteen i was always there to do it and make sure everything was okay. seems like she has a pretty good life to me. If someone came up to me and offered to take care of everything in my life, i dont have to worry about anything i would probably take the offer too.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Wow bri it amazes me how you just go around assuming women are irresponsible, incapable, ect ect. Frankly your view is pretty insulting to some of us women. And I have to disagree with the fact that being a sahm is easier then working. I have done some dangerous work myself before meeting my SO and frankly it was easier because all I had to worry about was myself. I worked some long hours too and made 15 an hour doing it but with being a sahm there is so much more responsibility and not only do you have to worry about yourself but you have to worry about the kids, the SO, the finances, ect. Now clearly you think your wife shouldn't worry her pretty lil head about that stuff bri but there are plenty of other women out there who do and view such matters as the responsibility of both partners, not just one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tennisstar (Dec 19, 2011)

This OP seems to think all women are like his wife, unable to do anything. If you look at his posts, he is always condescending towards women. 

Sorry, OP, but many of us are very competent.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

Gaia said:


> Wow bri it amazes me how you just go around assuming women are irresponsible, incapable, ect ect. Frankly your view is pretty insulting to some of us women. And I have to disagree with the fact that being a sahm is easier then working. I have done some dangerous work myself before meeting my SO and frankly it was easier because all I had to worry about was myself. I worked some long hours too and made 15 an hour doing it but with being a sahm there is so much more responsibility and not only do you have to worry about yourself but you have to worry about the kids, the SO, the finances, ect. Now clearly you think your wife shouldn't worry her pretty lil head about that stuff bri but there are plenty of other women out there who do and view such matters as the responsibility of both partners, not just one.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


i actually shelter her. Even when we werent together but she had our child i was always keeping watch over her. Always have. She isnt even in the regular world like most women now a days. Im very protective of her. Tried to save her from all that. i wouldnt even let her do most jobs women do. i wouldnt put her through that. When she was working years back they wanted her to work extra hours. She didnt really work long anyway but she didnt want to do it, and i had no intention of making her do it. I didnt even want her driving home later in the evening. They ended up firing her for refusing to work. Didnt really phase her or me at all. And that was a professional type job, not exactly labor it was office sitting at a desk. she started doing computer work from home for a while for one company. That wasnt bad. i didnt have to worry about her out at night or driving in bad weather. But even that i really didnt care if she did it or not. Ended up petering out and she just stopped doing it. She really spent less than three years working i think in the thirteen i have known her. She did go to college though. i have this real thing about keeping her safe and out of harms way. i'll admit it. im overprotective and probably am alot of the reason she is how she is.  I'm not saying all women are this way. I think the reason i tried to involve her more in finances before and things was in a way i was hiring her. so i could keep a watch over her and still give her a sense of accomplishment.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

bribrius said:


> why wouldnt she? she hasn't had a damn thing to worry about since she was eighteen i was always there to do it and make sure everything was okay. seems like she has a pretty good life to me. If someone came up to me and offered to take care of everything in my life, i dont have to worry about anything i would probably take the offer too.


I doubt that you would take the offer. Why? Because part of the deal is that the other person gets to control your life in so many ways, make just about every decision, etc. 

From what I've learned about you on TAM there is no way that you would give up control.


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

off topic, but im actually thinking as our children get older ill get into a side business again. Maybe open a bookstore or something. Have her run it if she can. Keep her occupied. It will give her something to do and the kids can work there when they get to highschool age. Maybe a toy store. something fun. It doesnt even have to make money (be great if it did though) but it could be a little family thing.


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## Goldmember357 (Jan 31, 2012)

bribrius said:


> As in the way relations are these days. What benefit does a man have in getting married ?
> 
> It once meant exclusive rights to offspring. Doesnt now. Guys more likely to be made to support someone elses offspring or to be held from seeing their own and still having to pay for them.
> Once meant the woman was limited as far as affairs. Now women can have any affair they want.
> ...


lol

you have some weird views of the world. Women can have affairs whenever no mater the year humans have not changed. 

If you want a woman who stays home and takes care of the kids than FIND ONE. They are not hard to find, if you live in a big city that is filled with new age liberal women it might be hard. But i assure you that there are more rural area's and the more conservative areas have plenty of women who think traditionally and want to be a housewife and maybe work a little as a teacher or something. 

Nothing wrong with that

Only get married if you want to. I am a divorce lawyer and i think most people who live should avoid getting married and its simply for the fact most people marry someone they truly do not love and to many people are selfish and interested in their own pleasure.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

bribrius said:


> I think this is detrimental for a woman. I was reading on this, and the reason for the double standard on women and men and the amount of sex partners seems to go back again to offspring and exclusivity. Remember a guy isnt really guaranteed to know the offspring is his as a woman is.
> So the more a woman sleeps around the less value she has for most guys, as the chances of the offspring being his declines. The kids before marriage is a huge issue for most men. They really prefer to not pay for and raise another mans kids.
> i think this is a biological thing, i dont think it can be changed.
> while a man that may sleep around may be more accepted as a worthy "steed". Men that have slept around tend to not bother a woman as much, may even increase the value of them in a womans mind.
> But women flatly devalue for a man, with the amount of sex partners and children by other she has. I think the response is instinctual for a man. Another problem for a guy considering marriage. If the woman has been "around" they will have little to no respect for them, and not trust them. It wont go well. Not sure if the guy can even help it, its a normal response as they naturally consider the value and exclusivity. It is why women being virgins was so important in latter ages it gave them a certain value in marriage. Non virgins weren't worth much.


I can say without any reservations that this is true for a very small percentage of men, but for women, there is little to worry about except when they're still young, such as in high school or young adulthood.

I've enjoyed an active sex life when I've been single. My "numbers" are much higher than average and I have never felt ashamed of my experiences. I don't go out of my way to advertise them, but I'm honest when asked, and I will let someone know that if they're insecure about it, they probably shouldn't date me.

I've never lacked for dates, even though I'm just average looking and a bit overweight. It has never created trust problems. I had far more issues with jealous men in my 20s, when I was still relatively inexperienced, than I have had since.

I truly think this is an old wives' tale designed to "keep women in their places."


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

KathyBatesel said:


> I can without any reservations that this is true for a very small percentage of men, but for women, there is little to worry about except when they're still young, such as in high school or young adulthood.
> 
> I've enjoyed an active sex life when I've been single. My "numbers" are much higher than average and I have never felt ashamed of my experiences. I don't go out of my way to advertise them, but I'm honest when asked, and I will let someone know that if they're insecure about it, they probably shouldn't date me.
> 
> ...


if the guy has no jealousy or concern. it kind of shows you how he values you right there. Many women may think this is a good thing, all the freedom they seem to have. Lot of times it is just because the guy really doesnt care enough about you to care where you are and what you are doing. i dated women i really didnt care at all, so i didnt really care what they were doing, where, or with whom. That is what condoms are for. If they guy really doesnt seem to care what you are doing, has no jealousy, or at the least doesnt show any protective instincts over you. chances are something is amiss and he really doesnt care about you. jmo
Getting dates, and getting dates that take you seriously for a relationship are very different things arent they? If you told your date you have only been with say four guys in your life, you would probably be treated much differently wouldnt you? 
If i dated someone that had been with three or four guys, i might be more apt to open the door for them. someone that had been with thirty, they can open their own door. 
woman that has been with three or four i personally would put them at a greater value. thirty, i wouldnt care if they showed up for the date or not. If they cheated on me or not. I just wouldnt care much about them or take the relationship seriously. Three or four i would no doubt be more respectful. Thirty i wouldnt really care what the womans response is over how i act. That is the kind of time you spend the night and run out the door in the morning and dont even say goodbye. But that is me.  Part of the reason i have my wife, is she hasnt been around at all. Just me. i know exactly where she has been, and who she is. Gives her more value in my eyes. so if she gives me headaches, i know im not finding another woman that hasnt been with others so im best to deal with the headaches. So it gives her more room to make mistakes, as im more apt to overlook things because i see a different value in her. Truth be told, i probably wouldnt have been near as protective of her when she was younger if she had had multiple sex partners. Probably concentrate more on the child and care less what was going on with her as girls that have been around are a dime a dozen. She gets more grace room and im more giving basically. So she gets a tiara in a sorts. Any other woman i found now would probably have been married and divorce at least once or twice, been with multiple sex partners you can count on both hands and start over, and possibly have children buy another man, or multiple men. This is part of the reason i so keep my wife. i figure it goes down hill from here. And with all that i figure all these women have mental baggage. LOL!!!


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## Goldmember357 (Jan 31, 2012)

my hope for humanity only shrinks when i come to this forum.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

bribrius said:


> What benefit does a man have in getting married ? ... i dont see the benefits.


Statistically, married men live longer. Likewise, the children of married men do better in numerous categories such as educational achievement and lifetime earnings


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Goldmember357 said:


> my hope for humanity only shrinks when i come to this forum.


Sadly, it's starting to affect me the same way.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

JJG said:


> There is nothing wrong with having old fashioned values as long as there is respect. OP you come across as have absolutely no respect for your wife, how do you expect to have a healthy marriage? Simply Amorous, from everything I have read on these boards your relationship works so well with your old fashioned values because of the respect you both have for each other and value the other persons contribution to your life.


 Yes, it IS a matter of *RESPECT* -on both sides....and Love for each other. 

Good Book explaining how this needs to play in every marriage>>

Love & Respect: The Love She Most Desires; The Respect He Desperately Needs :Books

In our relationship, those who know us personally would even call ME more dominant than my husband ....submissive, even he would :rofl: at that... ha ha ha ha ha ... But when you have a GOOD man, it is freaking easy to be submissive when he lays the hammer down, when we find we can not agree on something...I have learned in my own marriage, he generally knows BEST, though we are mostly on the same page, thankfully. 

I can't say I am anything like this mans wife -the way he is talking about her. 

I deleted my last post on here, I don't feel the majority have any appreciation for Old fashioned anything anymore. It seems to be something others make FUN of, and spit on. ....and some of the stuff brought out here -only blackens it a little bit more. I hate that . 



> *Goldmember357 said *: my hope for humanity only shrinks when i come to this forum


 I get discouraged reading many times too.... like on another thread -how Marriage is just " A PEICE OF PAPER" ..... we've cheapened sex pathetically... now we've cheapened marraige. I don't agree with those attitudes at all. I feel they will only hurt our future generations..and our children. 

A loss of RESPECT everywhere.... a loss of Thankfulness... a loss of Gratitute...Romance is near dead.... and everyone is Mr & Mrs Independence these days ...we don't need LOVE anymore, we don't need each other at all...it is only for excitement and pleasure - for a season, no commitment, therefore no security for anyone. I think the majority of us CRAVE that -even if we are too pu$$y to admit it. 

Our oldest son is still a virgin at 21 -by choice, he is a Worship Leader, he takes his beliefs seriosuly, how rare in this day & age. How many call themselves Christians & boast how they sleep around. It is not because he is ugly -shy or can't get a woman at all, he has plenty who want him, but he would never "use" a woman...he doesn't feel that is "OK" just cause everyone else is doing it... he is waiting for LOVE, some still believe in that, that Sex is "sacred" -when 2 become one. Laughable to most. I find it highly romantic, even though I have encouraged him to go have a little more FUN!! 

Some may call him a Fool, even I worry he may marry a Repressed Virgin who doesn't like sex...there is a risk there. My husband took it, it turned out good for us, we had a slow start, but we'd happily do it all over again, I don't regret waiting for intercourse- for the man I love. 

Not all men are hypocrites.... I seen this posters thoughts on another thread BEFORE he was married... http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...-what-were-you-like-before-your-marriage.html

...his words " Going from girl to girl to girl. Totally money and get ahead minded. Kind of a jerk in many ways, ill admit. I didnt really care about anyone else"... Someone like this has no right to EXPECT a woman to be chaste only for HIM.


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Yes, it IS a matter of *RESPECT* -on both sides....and Love for each other.
> 
> Good Book explaining how this needs to play in every marriage>>
> 
> ...


what do rights have to do with it?
i actually thought about your other question as well. you asked me how i felt about my mother telling me "there are the girls you have fun with, and the ones you marry"
I think i agree with her. She is a smart woman. I was raised in the church, by a minister. But mom was a realist. She knew if i hadnt married off real young, i would end up sleeping around. The question was who would end up pregnant, if it was before marriage. And would they make a good wife. Following the word for a rebellious young man to the point of not having sexual intercourse in our society i believe she considered very unrealistic. Unless i married a girl from the church, REAL YOUNG. Then she knew i would be sleeping around. She didnt see me getting overly committed to any of the girls in the church. The girls she saw me dating weren't generally church type girls. So she knew what was coming. It was a matter of the who with, do they get pregnant, and the repercussions. Because her son wasnt looking for a wife but looking for a good time. My mother is a realist. Just tried to make me careful, and make sure any future wife i had would be worth having. Dont worry. She voiced her opinion about some of the girls i was with back then in spades. And the church girls she tried to get me to go out with i avoided like the plague. i didnt want marriage i wanted no commitment and fun. she saw all this.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

bribrius said:


> what do rights have to do with it?


You are a Preachers son no less. 

Listen, I'm a realist too, I know all about the male sex drive, I have read a # of books on hormones and I feel I got a taste of that myself a few yrs ago and for the 1st time in my life (women have their PRIME TOO and it rages as well)... I think I could have separated SEX from LOVE & the emotional --for the 1st time in my life...I was thankful I was married to a giving man who took care of me...I was going out of my mind....even thought I had a sex addiction (crazy story)....which led me to this forum. ha ha. 

I GET the fact men are horny RAGING BEASTS in their youth ( their PRIME)....my dad used to tell my mom he was going to DIE if he didn't get it. But we do have our hands, don't we? And we can "get off" without Penis inside vagina...why is intercourse essential in your youth? I get the fact you'll have blue balls if you don't get a release, but their are many ways! 

I mean, if the girls want it as BAD as you, wanting to use you -with no commitment - I guess it's no skin off anyone's back, but you are having intercourse with these women, there is always a chance to CREATE A LIFE... Sex , in my opinion, should NEVER be taken lighty.... You seemed to agree with your opening post mentiong how women think nothing of premarital sex these days - I immediately wondered how PURE you were with such a comment. 

How I feel about the act can be found here >> It is very old fashioned , but not as stringent as the Puritans in church today, this is how WE handled ourselves , my husband didn't have to go banging a bunch of women -before he married me >>>> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/family...-sex-relation-love-her-emotions-her-life.html

You have daughters, what do you teach yours in relationship to men? DO you want your daughters to be the type who gets used & discarded -just cause they feel the same - a night of passion, lets move on? Or would you teach them otherwise, I'd be curious to hear your opionon on such things. 

If one has a conscience, and tries to live with *integrity*, I believe they would desire to rise above the raging hormones and do the right thing. I didn't say it would be easy! But some things are honorable, especially when you expect it from the other sex or your future spouse. 

Would your mother being a Realist married to a Preacher no less, if she encouraged you to USE women and this was OK, then she shouldn't have a problem with her daughters or granddaughters wanting to Be that kind of "chick", does the door swing both ways in her realism? 

You asked about RIGHTS.. again, just my opinion... I believe a PURE man has a "RIGHT" to expect such things from his woman, but not a man who has been a Playboy...that makes him a hypocrite in my book. 

I didn't sleep around, and I sure as hell was not going to get entangled with no Playboy who discareded those he stuck his penis in & would have been horrified if such a chick became pregnant, beings he had no love for her at all.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Yes, it IS a matter of *RESPECT* -on both sides....and Love for each other.
> 
> Good Book explaining how this needs to play in every marriage>>
> 
> ...


SimplyAmorous, you know you've always got me to go along with your old fashioned views, but I feel the same way sometimes that old fashioned values are often made fun of today. Sometimes I have to study posts here for a while to determine what exactly they are asking. For example, I've mentioned before that I may not be interested in marriage again. For me, that basically means I plan to stay single and out of relationships. But I know it means a totally different thing to some. If I did find a woman and we wanted to be together for the rest of our lives, I would marry her. Living together and not being married just isn't my thing. Out in the sticks where I live, people call that "shacking up," but I know that view is hilarious to a lot of people today. I'm sure I could post some old fashioned beliefs that people have in my little town that would make people laugh until their side was sore, but that's just us

I agree with you that sex and marriage has been cheapened in today's society. What you wrote about men and women not needing each other anymore and it all being for excitement and pleasure sounds exactly like the comments my Aunt gave me, which I posted in "Relatives View on Marriage."

Your son sounds like a fine young man.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

SimplyAmorous said:


> You are a Preachers son no less.
> 
> Listen, I'm a realist too, I know all about the male sex drive, I have read a # of books on hormones and I feel I got a taste of that myself a few yrs ago and for the 1st time in my life (women have their PRIME TOO and it rages as well)... I think I could have separated SEX from LOVE & the emotional --for the 1st time in my life...I was thankful I was married to a giving man who took care of me...I was going out of my mind....even thought I had a sex addiction (crazy story)....which led me to this forum. ha ha.
> 
> ...


I could probably take each paragraph of this post and make a comment, but it's easier just to say, I agree with it 100%.:smthumbup:


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> You are a Preachers son no less.
> us pk's are some of the worst. We go all out the opposite sometimes after coming up in the church.
> Listen, I'm a realist too, I know all about the male sex drive, I have read a # of books on hormones and I feel I got a taste of that myself a few yrs ago and for the 1st time in my life (women have their PRIME TOO and it rages as well)... I think I could have separated SEX from LOVE & the emotional men do this all the time. --for the 1st time in my life...I was thankful I was married to a giving man who took care of me...I was going out of my mind....even thought I had a sex addiction (crazy story)....which led me to this forum. ha ha.
> 
> ...


never said i was a angel. But on the other hand there wasnt any bloody sheet i had to show anyone to prove i was a virgin. There is a double standard on virginity for men and women. Always has been. Chastity for a woman is held in much higher reguard. Apparently you dont like this. But it is cross-cultural and undeniable. Where as both are deemed biblically important, sinful to not have, the female virginity is held to a much higher standard even biblically. Deuteronomy 22:13-21 NIV - Marriage Violations - If a man takes a - Bible Gateway
always was. The double standard is there as well and it can be found inside and outside religions. The female virgin was always held to a greater value and their chastity considered more important.. Men have no hymen. we are the same as virgins as we are after we lost virginity. no change. The act of the virgin bride is key in marriage consummation. Not such of importance for a guy. Not that it is right for a guy to sleep around, but the significance of it is lessor.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

southbound said:


> SimplyAmorous, you know you've always got me to go along with your old fashioned views, but I feel the same way sometimes that old fashioned values are often made fun of today.


 And you are not just imagining it, WE are the fish out of water here. I go back & forth thinking I would feel more at home with some of my views on a christian forum (at least about premarital sex)... but they are too darn strict for me....and I get annoyed there too.... I am somewhere in the middle... I can't be boxed. 

I feel the WORLD is TOO "loose" and the Church is TOO strict, their mantra on a little lust is enough to shame us all out of our own skin -if anyone takes that seriously. It screwed with my head for years. I despise some of those teachings. There must be a happy balance where the youth won't go stark raving mad but can express their sexuality with each other -without harming each other in the process and shutting off their emotions. 

We'll always have the Good girl & the Bad girls and sometimes they even change places years later, after they have gotten some things out of their system... To live, grow & marry wisely with as little casualites in hurting yourself, others & the children that may come from all of this-- is the way to go. 

I like Posters like you Southbound, be yourself...stand out :smthumbup: ...don't fear the backlash. I don't care who calls me crazy.... I have a story to tell as everyone else here has theirs. I put alot of thought into the WHY's I believe as I do. Not sure everyone does that so much. I made mistakes too along the way...as we all do... I would even go back and change some things, but some I would hold onto for dear life.


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

i actually like both of you. And pretty much all the posters here, even the ones i disagree with. They give me food for thought, to re-evaluate my own beliefs. seek truth.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

bribrius said:


> i actually shelter her. Even when we werent together but she had our child i was always keeping watch over her. Always have. She isnt even in the regular world like most women now a days. Im very protective of her. Tried to save her from all that. i wouldnt even let her do most jobs women do. i wouldnt put her through that. When she was working years back they wanted her to work extra hours. She didnt really work long anyway but she didnt want to do it, and i had no intention of making her do it. I didnt even want her driving home later in the evening. They ended up firing her for refusing to work. Didnt really phase her or me at all. And that was a professional type job, not exactly labor it was office sitting at a desk. she started doing computer work from home for a while for one company. That wasnt bad. i didnt have to worry about her out at night or driving in bad weather. But even that i really didnt care if she did it or not. Ended up petering out and she just stopped doing it. She really spent less than three years working i think in the thirteen i have known her. She did go to college though. i have this real thing about keeping her safe and out of harms way. i'll admit it. im overprotective and probably am alot of the reason she is how she is.  I'm not saying all women are this way. I think the reason i tried to involve her more in finances before and things was in a way i was hiring her. so i could keep a watch over her and still give her a sense of accomplishment.





bribrius said:


> off topic, but im actually thinking as our children get older ill get into a side business again. Maybe open a bookstore or something. Have her run it if she can. Keep her occupied. It will give her something to do and the kids can work there when they get to highschool age. Maybe a toy store. something fun. It doesnt even have to make money (be great if it did though) but it could be a little family thing.


Your posts sound like you are raising your wife as though she were your child.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Ok I get that people have different views and different morals and yes as a wiccan I value marriage and find it a sacred bond between two people who love each other. Now clearly my view differs from others but with my belief the union is based on love.. not duty. I suppose my religious belief is why I value marriage so much BUT just because I am not married does not mean I am in any way easy or have less moral values nor does it mean I don't take commitment seriously. I suppose you could consider my situation shacking up but I see it as staying by my mans side. 

Yes I dated prior to him but I gave him and him alone my body, my mind, my heart, and my soul. He differs from me in quite a few ways but despite those differences we have tackled a lot of problems together as a team. Yes I had three kids with him but that doesn't mean I have no morals, just different then most apparently. 


As many know gate and I have our ups and downs like any couple but it doesn't make our relationship any less valueable. I would like to share this. Part of th wiccan rede is... 

True in love ye must ever be, lest thy love be false to thee.

Now this is a moral guideline I stick by and follow. The last part does not mean go ahead and be false to your love ... to me it means one has the choice to remain true and stay orrr leave the relationship. I hope this makes sense to some of you at least lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

SimplyAmorous said:


> And you are not just imagining it, WE are the fish out of water here. I go back & forth thinking I would feel more at home with some of my views on a christian forum (at least about premarital sex)... but they are too darn strict for me....and I get annoyed there too.... I am somewhere in the middle... I can't be boxed.
> 
> I feel the WORLD is TOO "loose" and the Church is TOO strict, their mantra on a little lust is enough to shame us all out of our own skin -if anyone takes that seriously. It screwed with my head for years. I despise some of those teachings. There must be a happy balance where the youth won't go stark raving mad but can express their sexuality with each other -without harming each other in the process and shutting off their emotions.
> 
> ...


I like your posts too. They are very indepth and thought out. They have helped me a great deal since coming here a couple of years ago. Your are right, we all have our own story and are all different. 

I probably ask more questions here than give advice. I would really like to know i had helped somebody in some way, but I apparently come from such a different world that i don't even know how to respond sometimes. 

Sometimes when I read a post it's like I'm reading, "Help. my spouse won't let me put our pet snake in the same cage as our pet hamster. What do I do?" I read it and think, er......uh....... I could just say, "Bad idea; the snake will eat your hamster," but that's probably not what they're looking for.


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

norajane said:


> Your posts sound like you are raising your wife as though she were your child.


sometimes i lose track myself. :rofl:


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## Goldmember357 (Jan 31, 2012)

KathyBatesel said:


> I can say without any reservations that this is true for a very small percentage of men, but for women, there is little to worry about except when they're still young, such as in high school or young adulthood.
> 
> I've enjoyed an active sex life when I've been single. My "numbers" are much higher than average and I have never felt ashamed of my experiences. I don't go out of my way to advertise them, but I'm honest when asked, and I will let someone know that if they're insecure about it, they probably shouldn't date me.
> 
> ...


Its not a wise tale. Human history argues otherwise as does the differences between the sexes! If you think you have total freewill than you are wrong! and there is enough evidence to support my claim. 

Statistically the more sexual partners a person has the MORE LIKELY THEY ARE TO DIVORCE

statistically the more sexual partners a woman has the LESS LIKELY SHE IS TO BE STAY MARRIED and MORE LIKELY SHE IS TO DIVORCE

statistically the more sexual partners a female has the LESS attractive she is to a male looking for a long term relationship.

Say what you want but there are biological differences between the sexes. In regards to differences of how one is raised and societal influences that is entirely different from biological differences! When it comes to psychoanalytical thinking i take a humanistic approach though i will say all in all the feminist movement now a days (imo) has and does more harm than good. The early feminist movements (imo) did nothing but good but now a days its gone off the deep end. 



bribrius said:


> if the guy has no jealousy or concern. it kind of shows you how he values you right there. Many women may think this is a good thing, all the freedom they seem to have. Lot of times it is just because the guy really doesnt care enough about you to care where you are and what you are doing. i dated women i really didnt care at all, so i didnt really care what they were doing, where, or with whom. That is what condoms are for. If they guy really doesnt seem to care what you are doing, has no jealousy, or at the least doesnt show any protective instincts over you. chances are something is amiss and he really doesnt care about you. jmo
> Getting dates, and getting dates that take you seriously for a relationship are very different things arent they? If you told your date you have only been with say four guys in your life, you would probably be treated much differently wouldnt you?
> If i dated someone that had been with three or four guys, i might be more apt to open the door for them. someone that had been with thirty, they can open their own door.
> woman that has been with three or four i personally would put them at a greater value. thirty, i wouldnt care if they showed up for the date or not. If they cheated on me or not. I just wouldnt care much about them or take the relationship seriously. Three or four i would no doubt be more respectful. Thirty i wouldnt really care what the womans response is over how i act. That is the kind of time you spend the night and run out the door in the morning and dont even say goodbye. But that is me.  Part of the reason i have my wife, is she hasnt been around at all. Just me. i know exactly where she has been, and who she is. Gives her more value in my eyes. so if she gives me headaches, i know im not finding another woman that hasnt been with others so im best to deal with the headaches. So it gives her more room to make mistakes, as im more apt to overlook things because i see a different value in her. Truth be told, i probably wouldnt have been near as protective of her when she was younger if she had had multiple sex partners. Probably concentrate more on the child and care less what was going on with her as girls that have been around are a dime a dozen. She gets more grace room and im more giving basically. So she gets a tiara in a sorts. Any other woman i found now would probably have been married and divorce at least once or twice, been with multiple sex partners you can count on both hands and start over, and possibly have children buy another man, or multiple men. This is part of the reason i so keep my wife. i figure it goes down hill from here. And with all that i figure all these women have mental baggage. LOL!!!


Humans will destroy themselves 

the more i read on here the more i come to this conclusion. Thank you....


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Lol panda I really liked your post.  no need to stfu 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

Goldmember357 said:


> Its not a wise tale. Human history argues otherwise as does the differences between the sexes! If you think you have total freewill than you are wrong! and there is enough evidence to support my claim.
> 
> Statistically the more sexual partners a person has the MORE LIKELY THEY ARE TO DIVORCE
> 
> ...



Not that i disagree. But im not understanding your vantage point. Are you speaking of morality or population decline perhaps?
Rome fell, all civilzations fall.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Lol I do the same thing at times... but I have an icky boost phone lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

Goldmember357 said:


> my hope for humanity only shrinks when i come to this forum.


I'll say!


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

bribrius said:


> never said i was a angel. But on the other hand there wasnt any bloody sheet i had to show anyone to prove i was a virgin. There is a double standard on virginity for men and women. Always has been. Chastity for a woman is held in much higher reguard. Apparently you dont like this. But it is cross-cultural and undeniable. Where as both are deemed biblically important, sinful to not have, the female virginity is held to a much higher standard even biblically. Deuteronomy 22:13-21 NIV - Marriage Violations - If a man takes a - Bible Gateway
> always was. The double standard is there as well and it can be found inside and outside religions. The female virgin was always held to a greater value and their chastity considered more important.. Men have no hymen. we are the same as virgins as we are after we lost virginity. no change. The act of the virgin bride is key in marriage consummation. Not such of importance for a guy. Not that it is right for a guy to sleep around, but the significance of it is lessor.


Stats show that the more sexual partners a man has had before marriage the less likely it is that he will be faithful. I myself value sex in an intimate long term relationship only, so a man who is a player is not the type of man I ever go for.

And given that there aren't many virgin brides any more, I'm fairly confident that my "stock" is just fine.

Women can be just as sexual as men, and a woman who knows about her self, what turns her on, how to help her man keep the sexual connection, is going to have a much better chance at a successful marriage.


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## JJG (Mar 9, 2011)

I do find it strange how posters on here state that people do not take marriage seriously anymore, but then on other threads say that if you have dated for years and are not married then you should move on as he doesn’t love you.

So everyone is supposed to take marriage seriously, but run down the aisle within a year or two of meeting someone?

I have been with my man for nearly 9 years. We have only been engaged for 8 months. Why? Because didn’t want to get married until I was at least 25, I think that marrying is very serious and you should not do it when you are a child. 

And don’t even get me started on the ‘women should stay chaste while men run rampant’ double standard, I feel like I’m beating a dead horse with that subject on this site . . .


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

bribrius said:


> i actually like both of you. And pretty much all the posters here, even the ones i disagree with. They give me food for thought, to re-evaluate my own beliefs. seek truth.


Thank you for this ....I feel that is a good attitude.  I have changed my views in the past due to being Open minded, listening to others that I accually had a problem with...It is important, for me, to understad where my CRITIC is coming from -and deeply. I like to unravel that onion. Such people are much easier to "reach" in life... seeking *wisdom* is one of the greatest things any of us can do for ourselves & those in our inner circle. We should all be growing in wisdom as we age. 



> us pk's are some of the worst. We go all out the opposite sometimes after coming up in the church.


 Of course you do, I undestand rebellion. My oldest son is likely a goody goody cause I try to currupt him a bit...his form of rebellion. If anyone could see some of our discussions we have had at home....like a fly on the wall, it would be quite amusing... I used to be a Christian, now I am a Deist... I believe there is a God but I hold REASON & how someone lives & treats that fellow man (the Golden rule) above Blind Faith & doctrine...this works for me...I am more at peace, this doesn't WAR against my Mind. Those things DID when I was fed scripture every day. If I was raised by strict Fundamentalist Christian parents.... I could see me rebelling too. Oh yeah!



> yeah, i got caught on that one. Good thing she was conservative religous too eh?,


 Well I missed all of this...did not read every post in this thread - so you got your naughty little christian girl knocked up -you didn't love her (?) -proves my point, happens all the time. I do wonder how you got all those women in bed... did you lead them on allowing them to think LOVE was growing, that you had feelings, masking your LUST, saying anything to get some Nooky ?? (I think this is very common- why this is disgusting to me & against integrity)...

If you could do it all over again -would you? I am not up on where you are RIGHT NOW in your marriage? Missed alot of posts here. 



> you married young didnt you


 Not really... met him at 15, married 8 yrs later... My husband would likely win the prize here for HOW long he waited for ME... my cherry was so damn hard to pop after our wedding.... we had ourselves an issue...He couldn't get it in! So after 3 months trying (this was awfully frustrating).. off to the OBGYN (that was sure embarrassing :rofl.... after examining ...he says ...."Yep, that's a tough one alright!" - and scheduled me for a hymenecomy - but 1st had to get a blood test to rule out pregnancy.... Imagine the surprise a couple days later... the phone call I was EXPECTING ! So no surgery.

My step Mother joked about our 1st born being the immaculate conception for some time- funny this is our wanna be Youth Leader... Crazy story we have. Would I have wanted that experience to be with some Playboy who didn't give a damn about me - Hell no! 

I was 5 months pregnant & 8 months married before my husband FINALLY penetrated me fully - so we went out & celebrated. 

Physcially I was a virgin for sure- even according to scripture... but SPIRITUALLY I was told I wasn't .... as I had run ins with my story on a Christian forum....told we were sinners, I needed to repent!! How dare me think it was OK that we "touched each other" before we were married... therefore I was TAINTED. Whatever.... I have no regrets. 

I don't think it is wise to never touch your GF before marriage, just save the "sticking it in"--after all, isn't that what FUSES us, makes us "*one*" if you want to use scripture on such things?? I had plenty of orgasms by his hand - and still my cherry was WELL intact. If one never tastes the act of intercourse... it is possible to NOT go there in your youth... but once you go there... Yeah, it's too heavenly to not do it again. I guess that is how I feel about the YOUTH & SEX... due to my own experience. 

As a woman myself, I think we need to mentor women -more so than blaming men...on how to handle ourselves in life.... in finding a good man...and stick to our guns.... she needs to hold herself and her actions accountable....I almost see her as being almost MORE RESPONSBILE for her body in saying NO, and NOT allowing a man to use her... because she IS the one who has to carry that baby, and stands the chance of him leaving in the dust... I say this mostly cause MEN are the WEAKER Sex....meaining generally their hormones are raging so strongly, they can hardly see straight. The female can not relate to this - men's Test levels are 10 times higher than the average Female. Why did God do this, I don't know. Some men will use that as an "excuse" to play around. Should it be an "excuse"? 

I don't want to judge anyone. IF players want to screw Players and they know what they are doing, fine, I even ENJOY PORN, so it is not like I am hear to judge anyone.... to each their own.... just don't LIE about your intentions, I would have more RESPECT for the man who says "Baby, I'm feeling it right now, lets go have a roll in the hay - but I'm gone tomorrow, no strings, this is it"... than one who will say anything to get her pants down...lead her on. 

I undestand where you are coming from.... but as a Mom of 5 sons... I won't teach my boys that it's OK to use women -just cause they are willing & he is a horny toad. You never know who is going to get hurt. I guess it all falls on -how one perceives the act of SEX then, if there is meaning there.... or looks at it purely as a physical release.....I see it as something "*sacred*".... I don't have any desire to water that down and cheapen it.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Dang it arb lol you beat me to the liking!


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

southbound said:


> Sometimes when I read a post it's like I'm reading, "Help. my spouse won't let me put our pet snake in the same cage as our pet hamster. What do I do?" I read it and think, er......uh....... I could just say, "Bad idea; the snake will eat your hamster," but that's probably not what they're looking for.


This is funny Southbound, I hear you. I have always been able to see some HUMOR in "the serious".... I really don't need the "social section" at TAM for a little laughter....you just gave a fine example right here !


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

> I get discouraged reading many times too.... like on another thread -how Marriage is just " A PEICE OF PAPER" ..... we've cheapened sex pathetically... now we've cheapened marraige. I don't agree with those attitudes at all. I feel they will only hurt our future generations..and our children.



If, indeed, it is a "just a piece of paper," I can't imagine why some find it such a big deal in agreeing to have one... The truth of the matter is, it's not _just_ a piece of paper. It is a document that secures and protects the legal interests of the parties involved, and formally acknowledges the value of the relationship. Setting up home and having children with someone is a _very_ serious business and, if I were to agree to set up home with someone, I would expect that person to place as a high a value on the relationship as I would.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

> *Bribrious said*: But on the other hand there wasnt any bloody sheet i had to show anyone to prove i was a virgin. There is a double standard on virginity for men and women. Always has been. Chastity for a woman is held in much higher reguard. Apparently you dont like this. But it is cross-cultural and undeniable. Where as both are deemed biblically important, sinful to not have, the female virginity is held to a much higher standard even biblically. Deuteronomy 22:13-21 NIV - Marriage Violations - If a man takes a - Bible Gateway
> always was. The double standard is there as well and it can be found inside and outside religions. The female virgin was always held to a greater value and their chastity considered more important.. Men have no hymen. we are the same as virgins as we are after we lost virginity. no change. The act of the virgin bride is key in marriage consummation. Not such of importance for a guy. Not that it is right for a guy to sleep around, but the significance of it is lessor.


 Anyway Bribrius....given you put this on here, is your measuring stick for morality "scripture" then? Some things have not been lost from your upbringing or changed in your mind....Yet. 

Some people live & breath scripture -they oooze that FUNDEMENTALIST mentality (love to debate those types)....and if taken without reason salted with the Golden Rule (found in all religins by the way) ...of treating others how we want to be treated - feeling we are ALL created equal (not a biblical notion given how scripture handles slavery AND WOMEN in the Old Testament)... I down right think scripture, if taken literally is DANGEROUS and can be used to destroy many. 

I take issue with MANY Things in the Bible... why I can no longer attach myselt to it and call myself a Believer, I most surely CHERRY PICK -some things I read & say...MAN WROTE THAT! NOT inspired- I see a frightening Male Chauvinistic domination in much of it, treating women like mere property. IF God is as VILE as some of the things they claim he SPOKE...he is a MONSTER....and how that is the Father of a Jesus Christ accually makes zero sense to me. 

Stone your children if they curse you (I would have been stoned too, how about you!?).... How about this in the Old Testament, if you rape a woman , God commands you marry her ! What kind of a GOD would do this ,certainly not one who cares about WOMEN....


> (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)
> If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.


.. Back then, they were allowed to Beat their slaves almost to death - so long as they could get up in the morning it was OK, Jesus never condemned the practice either... It was the FREE Thinkers, and Quakers (not fundamentalists by any means) who had some common sense to end this awful practice of human ownership. 



> When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)


How about some SEX Slavery >>>


> When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)


Just trying to make a point here... Using these scriptures to justify WHY it doesn't matter how MEN behave...holds no water with many of us. Trying to bring that house of cards down a little. Hilter even used SCRIPTURE to do what he did, crazy how it can be twisted any way man sees fit, if he can blind the eyes of his listeners.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Cosmos said:


> If, indeed, it is a "just a piece of paper," I can't imagine why people see it as such a big deal in agreeing to have one... The truth of the matter is, it's not _just_ a piece of paper. It is document that secures and protects the legal interests of the parties involved, and formally acknowledges the value of the relationship. Setting up home and having children with someone is a _very_ serious business and, if I were to agree to set up home with someone, I would expect that person to place as a high a value on the relationship as I would.


 :smthumbup:

Notice my latest post here >> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...-years-together-no-proposal-3.html#post950337


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

While you can find plenty of examples of the people who seem to have a superficial, or even culturally outdated view of marriage, there are still people who view marriage very positively. I think the challenge is that many vocal "experts" within the media try to influence people to put aside traditional views of marriage, but they don't have an understanding of some of the more positive aspects of these beliefs. And younger adults simply don't have have resources in their life who can teach them a more mature approach to discussing, planning, and committing to a mutual understanding of what marriage can mean before they even get married.

My wife and I sought extensive pre-marital counseling before marriage. To be honest, my family was so dysfunctional that I just wanted a better understanding of how to do my part to hold together a marriage, and meet my wife's needs. But my wife was also drawn in to some of the native american beliefs that my grandmother discussed when they were together (my grandmother raised me through most of my childhood).

What I'm getting at is that marriage was, and always is a very spiritual process for us. I'm not talking about religion, either. If the worst occurred, and I became single again, I simply could not consider marriage unless it was with another person who could see the same significance in it. Its not easy. To us, marriage meant that my life, my actions and my intentions every day impacted the vitality of my wife's spirit, and vice versa. I could no longer find contentment in life unless she is content in the marriage. When I struggle, I look to her, and respect her for that strength. She looks to herself, with the same awareness. Both of us fail at times, but the most important part is that we can always find common ground on the committments we made to each other, which was to regard our marriage spirit as highly as we regard our own.

When people meet us, they see a normal couple. I'm a global platform manager in the automotive industry, and my wife is a nurse practicioner. But people almost always note that we seem much closer than most people they know. I think that what we have is not extremely common, despite my wife's struggles with a bipolar depression through the years. I don't that it has to be uncommon, though. Each successive generation often reacts to the fallout of the previous one in ways that we never really predict. If our generation declares marriage to be an institution of the past, the next one might not accept that answer, and find an approach to marriage that we never even imagined.


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## kindi (Apr 28, 2012)

Marriage is a financial arrangement, nothing more.

It benefits the one who enters the marriage with less money, almost guaranteeing them a source of continued support as well as the right to about half of everything accumulated during the marriage.

Those who choose to marry a person who earns considerably less, and/or has less in the way of assets, is being foolish to say the least, given the high failure rate of marriages and the many laws that favor the "non monied spouse".


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

I disagree kindi. Perhaps there are laws regarding a financial aspect now but there wasn't always. I believe that the true meaning of marriage has been lost to a lot of people.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

kindi said:


> Marriage is a financial arrangement, nothing more.
> 
> It benefits the one who enters the marriage with less money, almost guaranteeing them a source of continued support as well as the right to about half of everything accumulated during the marriage.
> 
> Those who choose to marry a person who earns considerably less, and/or has less in the way of assets, is being foolish to say the least, given the high failure rate of marriages and the many laws that favor the "non monied spouse".


Yeah, I would say this is a "cold" view of marraige....though he is likely speaking through his personal experience. I also don't doubt that some go into it for these very reasons. Are they overflowing with Joy in matrimony ... NO. 

If you go around and ask why people marry today... (This thread [email protected]#$%)...you will notice some responses leave you feeling "SAD" / empty... this is one of those... Now since he has been burned, he would never marry a woman who didn't pay her own way. (someone like ME -if I was single again)

Gaia -you are RIGHT when you said this -- " I believe that the true meaning of marriage has been lost to a lot of people."

I don't make hardly any $$ a year, just a few side jobs, a couple thousand, I surely didn't marry for $$, as he worked in a Grocery store at the time & I made a little more working in a Hospital as a Dietary aid. But yet, I stayed home to raise the kids..what we both wanted, took that pay cut...if one could say anything about me...I am one frugal Mama!! 

True, I wouldn't have aligned myself with a man who couldn't hold a JOB.. I had trust in him he could provide... paying our bills is absolutely HUGE...this keeps the stress down, easier to get through things when you don't have bill collectors hounding you every day....& just being able to go grab some cash -if the motor goes out on one of the cars - to go buy another. 

Also, my husband would have been a FOOL if he blindly married me knowing I was a $$ waster on his lower income...buring a hole in his pocket. He never had to worry about that, as I am even cheaper than he is ! 

We NEED money to live and be comfortable...to keep the stress at bay, to sleep at night... but beyond this fact. I never entertained marrying for the "financial arraingment".

Nope...all about the "togetherness" and how we felt for each other. His being a responsible Worker - a faithful model employee & careful with his $$ surely played a hand in the Respect I had for him - also = attraction, the whole package.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Pandakiss said:


> I think marriage is taken too lightly this day and age. Simply, your post were lovely. I'm not old fashioned but I do believe in morals and both my husband and I share them. Along with values.
> 
> I don't think I have loose morals, I think we all have differences and we follow our own moral compass.


 Thank you Panda... Some would say I am Loose, I've been kicked off a couple Christian forums already just running my honest thoughts. I like Porn too - God forbid !



> My husband and I did have sex before marriage and had a baby. Our surroundings were that of no need to be married.


 I have friends who had good intentions, wanted to wait..but they couldn't do it (very few can)...... one explained it to me ...that they didn't feel ashamed about it -because they still married them....it all worked out. IN their hearts, there were as one, just a little earlier than making it official. Your husband did the right thing in marrying the women who was going to bare his children...

....But how many walk away. This is when it gets sticky, and another child grows up without a father in his/her life. 



> We weren't taught to get married, no one else was. It seemed the norm to have kids with different men/women. Seems dumb now. I've grown up since I've been married, and have grown as a person.


 You've come to see a better way-for families.... as you have grown & observed others lives....and what has came out of your own sticking by each others sides through the good & the bad...... doesn't our world need more examples like this - Now you are one ! :smthumbup:




> Marriage takes the work of both man and woman. There has to be communication. There has to be understanding. It's give and take. It's a very delicate balancing act.
> 
> I don't think there is any thing wrong with looking at the pros vs cons when entering a lifetime agreement.


 I feel all potential couples should weigh themselves against a LONG LIST of things...Oh yeah.... never forget compatibilty ....

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/long-t...ility-b4-vows-beyond-marital-harmony-joy.html




> It should not be looked at lightly. Someone mentioned Ava longoria, well to me hollywood has always had a skewed vision of marriage.
> 
> We are fortunate to live in the real world. We cannot base our views on them. They don't have to sacrifice the way we do. They don't have any reason to stay and make it work.


 There is far too much "temptation" in Hollywood, this is the problem plus they are spoiled rotten, gorgeous and new lovers are at their fingertips everywhere they go, Life is a party catered around them....and EVERYWHERE, everyone is doing it -there is no effective shamers coming out of the woodwork....and why would they care if there was... they will still be praised & held on a pedestal tomorrow. There has to be an internal change within a person . 

Tom Hanks & His wife is one such example, just celebrated 24 yrs Rita Wilson on Lasting Marriage to Tom Hanks | TheInsider.com


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## JJG (Mar 9, 2011)

kindi said:


> Those who choose to marry a person who earns considerably less, and/or has less in the way of assets, is being foolish to say the least, given the high failure rate of marriages and the many laws that favor the "non monied spouse".


Oh well, At least I'm a happy fool


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Anyway Bribrius....given you put this on here, is your measuring stick for morality "scripture" then? Some things have not been lost from your upbringing or changed in your mind....Yet.
> 
> Some people live & breath scripture -they oooze that FUNDEMENTALIST mentality (love to debate those types)....and if taken without reason salted with the Golden Rule (found in all religins by the way) ...of treating others how we want to be treated - feeling we are ALL created equal (not a biblical notion given how scripture handles slavery AND WOMEN in the Old Testament)... I down right think scripture, if taken literally is DANGEROUS and can be used to destroy many.
> 
> ...


combine anarchism, judaism or tribalism (or something), conservatism. you probably have my train of thought. Anarchist, natural law with a upbringing of conservative influence. A belief in God, omega point theory perhaps, but i seek straight truth. 
i dont even believe in rights. I do have a idea of natural order, within anarchy. All systems live within anarchy. i have made every attempt to wipe most societal indoctrination from my mind, trying to gain further understanding of natural order. And the possibility of its relation to divine law. Any religous indoctrination i hold is mostly from tracking through history at this point. I use the bible as a informational resource, among other resources. Though because of upbringing i am more influenced from the bible than other manuscripts. suppose i look at natural order, not societal invention or man made isms. Im still in journey. will be till the end. A steady progress with no finish. But i do hold on to a God belief, very strongly. However it probably isnt the same one envisioned by many, least the one i tend to seek. Perhaps one day, i will find the answers im looking for. 
tabula rasa


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

bribrius said:


> i dont even believe in rights.


Not sure what you mean by this? Do you believe in -doing the right thing, do you believe you have a conscience ...that lightly guides you ? If that has been blown, I'd say your journey is not going to lead to any "good fruit" ! 



> i have made every attempt to wipe most societal indoctrination from my mind, trying to gain further understanding of natural order. And the possibility of its relation to divine law.


 Interesting.



> Any religous indoctrination i hold is mostly from tracking through history at this point. I use the bible as a informational resource, among other resources. Though because of upbringing i am more influenced from the bible than other manuscripts. suppose i look at natural order, not societal invention or man made isms. Im still in journey. will be till the end. A steady progress with no finish. But i do hold on to a God belief, very strongly. However it probably isnt the same one envisioned by many, least the one i tend to seek. Perhaps one day, i will find the answers im looking for.
> tabula rasa


I just looked that up ....


> *Tabula rasa *is the epistemological theory that individuals are born without built-in mental content and that their knowledge comes from experience and perception. Generally proponents of the tabula rasa thesis favour the "nurture" side of the nature versus nurture debate, when it comes to aspects of one's personality, social and emotional behaviour, and intelligence.


 Let me just say... I lost my religion also, as I have explained I cherry pick, a fundamentalist believer, I am NOT... it wars too much against my mind. I have friends of many faiths and I do not believe some of us are saved, and the others are in the hands of some enemy.... I put reason & the Golden Rule above Blind Faith....I spent about 2 yrs studying the roots of Christianity & found I tend to THINK alot like those they deemed "Heretics"....so this I must be! I come to realize "*Deism* " is the closest thing I identify with. 

But I still heavily believe in Love ... Goodness, all those "Fruits of the Spirit ", I think it well if we strive towards those being in our lives with our family & fellow man.... and There must be some Creator.... but I surely struggle with a "literal" interpretation or His being found in 1 Holy Book & all others be damned. 

Then there is are so very many ways to interpret scripture too -who can know for sure. 



> *Literal*: The Fundamentalist view
> 
> *Historical Docoment *
> 
> ...


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

rights are by and large societal invention.
Do i have the right to live? Is me living a absolute? If cant be shown in natural or divine law then and cant be a truth.
It doesnt actually exist.
If my right to live isnt a absolute, or a truth. It isn't real.
Might is right triumphs any conception i might have of my "right" to live. Is might is right existing outside of the system? Yes. Is my right to live existing outside of the system? No.
The right must be a false. Unless it can be shown outside of the system or in natural law or divine law.
It never existed.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

bribrius said:


> rights are by and large societal invention.
> Do i have the right to live? Is me living a absolute? If cant be shown in natural or divine law then and cant be a truth.
> It doesnt actually exist.
> If my right to live isnt a absolute, or a truth. It isn't real.
> ...


It goes without saying that most rights have evolved along with civilization. They are what separate us from our primitive origins. Society is designed to ensure that we keep evolving, rather than reverting to our baser instincts.


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

Cosmos said:


> It goes without saying that most rights have evolved along with civilization. They are what separate us from our primitive origins. Society is designed to ensure that we keep evolving, rather than reverting to our baser instincts.


must explain nuclear weapons and the tainting gene pool....

i question if the societal inventions are all beneficial. how could they be evolution if they are manufactured environments? One society goes against another and five million are dead. That is might and right and anarchy.
so it never changed. Just changed for the winners. 
we graduated to bigger sticks and stones.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

What do you mean tainted gene pool? Are you talking about deformaties?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

bribrius said:


> must explain nuclear weapons and the tainting gene pool....
> 
> i question if the societal inventions are all beneficial. how could they be evolution if they are manufactured environments? One society goes against another and five million are dead. That is might and right and anarchy.
> so it never changed. Just changed for the winners.
> we graduated to bigger sticks and stones.


Exactly. Just because we've 'progressed' technologically, doesn't mean that it has necessarily been for the good of humanity, nor the planet as a whole. This goes for many societal changes, too. We tend to take leaps forward that aren't necessarily steps in the right direction...


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

Gaia said:


> What do you mean tainted gene pool? Are you talking about deformaties?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


how we change our envionment effects us. we poison ourselves, and everything around us.. Lack of natural selection effects us. Modern medicine and empathy effects us.
I think even darwin admitted with empathy we taint the gene pool, but without it we lose humanity. catch-22. A no win.
inevitable we devolve imo unless someone attempts another push for eugenics or a cataclysmic event provides a reset.
When u overpopulate a area that is confined with sick animals and limited resources the result is never positive.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

bribrius said:


> rights are by and large societal invention.
> Do i have the right to live? Is me living a absolute? If cant be shown in natural or divine law then and cant be a truth.
> It doesnt actually exist.
> If my right to live isnt a absolute, or a truth. It isn't real.
> ...


This is a bit too deep for me !! I am just thankful I AM living - and that noone wants to kill me. And because of the men & women who faught & died for these rights..... laws are in force to protect many of the things I hold dear.



> I think even darwin admitted with empathy we taint the gene pool, but without it we lose humanity. catch-22. A no win


 There is truth in this....I don't have the answers. 

So eat drink & be merry, enjoy your toiling under the sun & take care of your own house as best you can, influence & inspire those in your tiny circle in this uncertain world.... Pretty much my attitude ...anyway.


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