# Why truth of cheating is better than not being told



## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Much is made, many pages and threads, of a cheater convincing them-self that not telling their loyal spouse that they are or have cheated is to protect them, to spare them hurt.

To me, that is just rationalized self interest.

Why is it that the ones who believe this, cannot believe that their adult spouse can handle the truth of their life at least as well as they can?

Or, is it that they know all too well that their loyal spouse can handle the truth but it will negatively impact their own self interests?


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Ethically and morally, there is only one choice and that is full disclosure.

#1 the health implications with STDs.
#2 you have to give adults the ability to make informed decisions about their life. This is kind of the bedrock of western civilization.
#3 if you want to fix the marriage, you have to put the broken things on the table to be fixed. You can't fix something in secret, or hope the other one just plays along and it randomly gets fixed.
#4 if children are involved and parenting is in question, you have to make sure the biological parents know they have children. Because it's their child.

There are more, but that's enough.

There are some very shaky arguments for not disclosing:
#1 if I've stopped the affair and learned my lesson, wouldn't telling my spouse just hurt them? Answer: no -- you'd be hurting them in the short term, but you can't guarantee they'd never find out, and you'd still be denying the arguements above.
#2 Wouldn't I be doing a loving act by keeping that pain from them and 'bearing this cross' for the rest of my life? Answer again is no. This self-imposed martyrdom is in my view a rationalization to avoid the discomfort from disclosing the truth.
#3 But if I tell my spouse, he/she might leave me! For the sake of the marriage, shouldn't I not tell him? Answer: no. You can't get around the arguements above unless you value a relationship built on falsehood and risking your partner's life for the sake of the marriage.
#4 But what about the kids! They shouldn't have to be raised in a broken home! Answer: no, they shouldn't, but that bridge was crossed and blown up with the affair. You still can't get around the arguements above, and you can't have a happy marriage without fixing the problems that led to the affair in the first place. And the impact of divorce on children is likely overblown. (Is Divorce Bad for Children? - Scientific American). There are also ethical considerations regarding the lineage of the children (they deserve to know who their biological parents are, too!) and being good role models. Consider well how ****ed up generations of women are because they grew up in households where daddy cheating was tolerated by mommy. 

In short, *all arguements against disclosure are weak arguements, while all arguements for disclosure are strong to the point of being inviolable.*


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## Nomorebeans (Mar 31, 2015)

My now ex thought he could hide the fact that he was actually leaving me for the other woman he'd already started an affair with the month before when he first told me he wanted to separate. I found out about six months later, and shortly before we did separate. (We always do.) And I wasn't even trying - he was hiding it so well.

He to this day maintains that he didn't just man up and tell me the truth right after he met her because he "didn't want to hurt me."

That is such bvll$hit. If you really don't want to hurt your spouse, don't have an affair. If you feel you're truly in love with someone else and will be happier with her or him, then do the honor you owe to your spouse and tell her or him the truth. If you're so in love with the other person, you should want to honor them, too, by not hiding your relationship from the rest of the world.

But the truth is, cheaters don't really love either person. The only love affair they're having is with themselves.

Additionally, as many others have also said here, I think the hiding and secrecy of an affair is thrilling to these @ssholes. Especially when they don't really want to leave their spouses, but want to have it both ways. And even if they do want to leave. Because they're all @ssholes. I'm sorry, cheaters (no, I'm not, really), but you are. Selfish, through and through. No other reason or excuse for it.

To the cheaters or would-be cheaters (I know a few of those - they're a few too many drinks out somewhere away from their spouses from getting it on with someone else): I know you're too selfish to leave truly honorably - when you realize you don't love your spouse anymore and want to be with someone else, but you haven't found that someone else yet. So, when you do find that someone else, and preferably before you sleep with them for the first time, just be honest with your spouse about it and leave. Your spouse will find out, one way or another, and the damage you'll have done by lying, on top of the cheating, will be irreparable. And if you have any semblance of a conscience at all, you'll regret the lying for the rest of your life.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Nomorebeans said:


> But the truth is, cheaters don't really love either person. The only love affair they're having is with themselves.


Actually, I happen to think affairs to a cheater are like drugs to an addict. They want to escape something that truly bothers them in their past, or in their present, and it rarely has to do with the marriage or their spouse. I've read threads on here where the BS is seeking as to what they might have done better, differently etc...and the truth is, most likely the answer to that is nothing. Because cheating isn't a sign of a bad marriage, it's a sign of bad character, for people who are not happy in their marriage could man up/woman up and say 'I'm not happy,' and seek to either work on the marriage or leave. But, they want to keep their house, their lifestyle, the kids happy, their money, their assets, etc...AND keep their 'drug' on the side.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

michzz said:


> Much is made, many pages and threads, of a cheater convincing them-self that not telling their loyal spouse that they are or have cheated is to protect them, to spare then hurt.
> 
> *To me, that is just rationalized self interest.*
> 
> ...


Agreed.

It's nothing more than cowardice disguised as compassion.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

marduk said:


> E
> #2 Wouldn't I be doing a loving act by keeping that pain from them and 'bearing this cross' for the rest of my life? Answer again is no. This self-imposed martyrdom is in my view a rationalization to avoid the discomfort from disclosing the truth.


This is a double whammy because it also serves to the CS that it constitutes remedy or remorse. Like they have paid for their sins in this way.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

NobodySpecial said:


> This is a double whammy because it also serves to the CS that it constitutes remedy or remorse. Like they have paid for their sins in this way.


Ya, I love that one. 

"I made it all better by bearing the burden of lying to you about what I did."

Ever listen to "Jesus Christ Pose" by Soundgarden?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

Having not told for close to 3 years, I did not tell #1) because I didn’t want to hurt him. That part IS true. I couldn’t live with what I did, I didn’t want him to have that pain. But #2) because it would end my marriage and I couldn’t face that. 

So yes, selfishness.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Yep.
Some want to call it a drug.....my old lady called it a band aid.


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

*Deidre* said:


> Because cheating isn't a sign of a bad marriage, it's a sign of bad character,


QFT!


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

@*Deidre* : That is called the affair fog. Its an addiction, its fun. My ww finally saw it a short while ago.

And by letting my WW know that telling the truth is healing me and our relationship, and showing that *IT DOES* - the more she is open to everything and still shares more. We're going through it pretty well actually, IMHO. She knows I won't tolerate lies.

The TRUTH is so very important. I say that to both the cheater and the betrayed.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

People that think lying to obtain a desired affect for themselves are of poor character to begin with.

Regardless if cheating is involved.

Many waywards confess.

The others are not just cheaters. That is not a core issue for them.

They are full time manipulators that really see nothing wrong with controlling "loved" ones through lying and deceit.

Some liars won't necessarily cheat but have no problem with the concept of manipulating a spouse or child through deceit for their own purposes or because they truly believe themselves to be eminently superior to them and do not care about deceiving them as long as they achieve desired results.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Vinnydee (Jan 4, 2016)

The reason is that the one confessing is being selfish. He or she wants to get rid of their guilt by rocking their spouse's world in a negative way. Even psychologist do not recommend telling your spouse and why do you feel that you are correct? Did you ever tell your spouse that you cheated? I did and she went from happy housewife to a suspicious wife whose stomach would knot up every time I was late or went away on business trips. You can forgive but you never can forget. How do you believe someone who just admitted to you that they are a liar? How do you believe that the reasons for them cheating will never happen again, and that if they feel like they are taken for granted, the solution will not be to cheat again? BTW, a person's past behavior is a pretty good indicator of their future behavior.

I do not know you credentials but there is no upside to telling your spouse except your own relief of guilt. He or she does not need to know. We do not tell our spouses everything we do that if it will hurt them or the marriage. My wife was going crazy worrying if I would cheat again that she actually asked her girlfriend to have sex with me and then moved her into our home so that I did not have to stray to have sex with another woman. It worked and worked well going from a monogamous marriage to a polyfidelitous one, but not many wives will do that. The point is that telling my wife changed our relationship dramatically. Just the other night she reminded me that I cheated on her. That happened 45 years ago. You can forgive but never forget. Do you tell you kids that there is no Santa Clause because you should not lie to them? Let's see, would I rather live my life happily with my wife or have her tell me that she found another man sexier or better than me and is sorry for doing so. I think ignorance really is bliss and by sparing your spouse the lifelong problems that will result by telling them you cheated simply because the guilt is eating you up, is not only selfish but serves no purpose whatsoever. Do you think the spouse is going to be happy after being told? Do you think he/she will view their spouse in the same way. Ya think that the spouse will not feel anxious and jealous when the spouse is gone for a few hours or on a business trip? 

The expression of once a cheater, always a cheater is been correct in my experience than not. My ex married the guy she cheated on me with, and then cheated on him for 20 years before leaving him to marry her girlfriend. I also dated cheating wives and almost all of them had told their husbands the first time they cheated or were caught and went into the speech about never doing it again. Some also made their husbands feel that it was their fault for ignoring some need they had which instead of telling him about, felt that banging other guys was the proper way to treat her problem. 9 out of 10 doctors recommend screwing others as the cure for what ails you. 

If you cheat and feel guilty, just suck it up and resolve never to cheat again. That is much harder to do than take your guilt and dump it on your spouse to deal with. My wife and I both agree that if we did not change our marriage from monogamous to poly, we would have divorced a long time ago. We adopted a realistic approach to the human condition and cut each other some slack. My wife even discovered her bisexuality after she was not honor bound to just have sex only with me. Her life has been much better than it was repressing her desire for women her entire life. She loves me even more for supporting her need for a woman in her life.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Vinnydee said:


> The reason is that the one confessing is being selfish. He or she wants to get rid of their guilt by rocking their spouse's world in a negative way. Even psychologist do not recommend telling your spouse and why do you feel that you are correct? Did you ever tell your spouse that you cheated? I did and she went from happy housewife to a suspicious wife whose stomach would knot up every time I was late or went away on business trips. You can forgive but you never can forget. How do you believe someone who just admitted to you that they are capable of lying? How do you believe that the reasons for them cheating will never happen again and that if she feels like she is being taken for granted, her solution will be to cheat again. BTW, a person's past behavior is a pretty good indicator of their future behavior.
> 
> I do not know you credentials but there is no upside to telling your spouse except your own relief of guilt. He or she does not need to know. We do not tell our spouses everything we do that will make them feel bad or sad. My wife was going crazy worrying if I would cheat again that she actually asked her girlfriend to have sex with me and then moved her into our home so that I did not have to stray to have sex with another woman. It worked and worked well but not many wives will do that. The point is that telling my wife changed our relationship. Just the other night she reminded me that I cheated on her. That happened 45 years ago. You can forgive but never forget. Do you tell you kids that there is no Santa Clause because you should not lie to them? Let's see, would I rather live my life happily with my wife or have her tell me that she found another man sexier or better than me and is sorry for doing so. I think ignorance really is bliss and by sparing your spouse the lifelong problems that will result by telling them to cheat simply because the guilt is eating you up is not only selfish but servers no purpose whatsoever. Do you think the spouse is going to be happy after being told? Do you think he/she will view their spouse in the same way. Ya think that the spouse will not feel anxious and jealous when his wife is gone for a few hours or on a business trip?
> 
> ...


Says the guy who thought it funny to sleep with married women.

No thanks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

Vinnydee said:


> The reason is that the one confessing is being selfish. He or she wants to get rid of their guilt by rocking their spouse's world in a negative way. Even psychologist do not recommend telling your spouse and why do you feel that you are correct? Did you ever tell your spouse that you cheated? I did and she went from happy housewife to a suspicious wife whose stomach would knot up every time I was late or went away on business trips. You can forgive but you never can forget. How do you believe someone who just admitted to you that they are capable of lying? How do you believe that the reasons for them cheating will never happen again and that if she feels like she is being taken for granted, her solution will be to cheat again. BTW, a person's past behavior is a pretty good indicator of their future behavior.
> 
> I do not know you credentials but there is no upside to telling your spouse except your own relief of guilt.* He or she does not need to know. *We do not tell our spouses everything we do that will make them feel bad or sad. My wife was going crazy worrying if I would cheat again that she actually asked her girlfriend to have sex with me and then moved her into our home so that I did not have to stray to have sex with another woman. It worked and worked well but not many wives will do that. The point is that telling my wife changed our relationship. Just the other night she reminded me that I cheated on her. That happened 45 years ago. You can forgive but never forget. Do you tell you kids that there is no Santa Clause because you should not lie to them? Let's see, would I rather live my life happily with my wife or have her tell me that she found another man sexier or better than me and is sorry for doing so. I think ignorance really is bliss and by sparing your spouse the lifelong problems that will result by telling them to cheat simply because the guilt is eating you up is not only selfish but servers no purpose whatsoever. Do you think the spouse is going to be happy after being told? Do you think he/she will view their spouse in the same way. Ya think that the spouse will not feel anxious and jealous when his wife is gone for a few hours or on a business trip?
> 
> ...


Sorry but there is so much wrong with that. 

Yes, the spouse does need to know. They have a right to CHOOSE if they want to be with someone who has betrayed them.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

Even keeping the secret to the grave doesn't guarantee it won't come out. A good friend of mine husband had an affair never told his wife. She learned of the affair two days after he died.

He kept a momento or two stashed away and when she was looking for some legal papers in his office found them. So not only was she mourning the loss of the man she loved for 30 years she is slapped with the reality her life was a lie. 

Imagine her heart ache sitting at his funeral listening to the stories about what a "great" husband and father he was etc etc while she is being torn apart inside because she had just found out about his "secret". His cowardness left her with a lifetime of unanswered questions and it drove her to a full blown nervous breakdown. It took her a couple of years to get her life back together afterwards.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

michzz said:


> Much is made, many pages and threads, of a cheater convincing them-self that not telling their loyal spouse that they are or have cheated is to protect them, to spare then hurt.
> 
> To me, that is just rationalized self interest.
> 
> ...


*Can you spell B-E-T-R-A-Y-A-L? I knew that you could!

Excuse me, but the last time I looked I was both old and intelligent enough to find out from the person who is actually betraying me for a direct and heartfelt confession about what they're deceptively doing to me; much rather than finding out about it from some third party! *
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

honcho said:


> Even keeping the secret to the grave doesn't guarantee it won't come out. A good friend of mine husband had an affair never told his wife. She learned of the affair two days after he died.
> 
> He kept a momento or two stashed away and when she was looking for some legal papers in his office found them. So not only was she mourning the loss of the man she loved for 30 years she is slapped with the reality her life was a lie.
> 
> Imagine her heart ache sitting at his funeral listening to the stories about what a "great" husband and father he was etc etc while she is being torn apart inside because she had just found out about his "secret". His cowardness left her with a lifetime of unanswered questions and it drove her to a full blown nervous breakdown. It took her a couple of years to get her life back together afterwards.


Thank you for sharing this story.


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## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

Vinnydee said:


> The reason is that the one confessing is being selfish. He or she wants to get rid of their guilt by rocking their spouse's world in a negative way. Even psychologist do not recommend telling your spouse and why do you feel that you are correct? .


I don't agree with this totally, but there is some validity to this statement. There are those who confess to clean their soul. It's done out of selfishness, to make the confessor feel better. It's not loving. It's not caring. It's dumping a stinky bucket of dirt.

Every situation is not the same and I don't believe that there is one answer. Do I think that honesty is the best policy? Yes. Some people may need to save that confession for when they feel _safe_, such as talking in front of a counselor, when the reasons can be hashed out, when it can be dealt with.

Funny, I have been told by many a person that if I chose to have an affair, it would be justified. Why? Because my wife has withheld sex from me for over a decade. But even that is not a justification to cheating. It is likely a justification for divorce, but not to cheat. Once again, honesty is the best policy.. and so is communication.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

In situations like mine, how could I ask and receive honest information about her relationships if I wasn't honest and open about the 2 relationships I had while virtual divorced, so I told her last summer. She freaked out, we had great HB sex for about a week, and now she's back to normal. I'm glad I told her, not to clear my conscious but to not be a hypocrite. And if one of those women just happens to contact me, I have no anxiety about secrets from my W.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

honcho said:


> Even keeping the secret to the grave doesn't guarantee it won't come out. A good friend of mine husband had an affair never told his wife. She learned of the affair two days after he died.
> 
> He kept a momento or two stashed away and when she was looking for some legal papers in his office found them. So not only was she mourning the loss of the man she loved for 30 years she is slapped with the reality her life was a lie.


The same story happened to my dad. They were married 43 years. My dad wasn't totally caught off guard as he had suspicions about my mom's boss. After she died, they cleaned out her office, dumped all personal items into several boxes and dropped them off with my dad. Going through he found more than one smoking gun that it had gone PA.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Reminds me of that late 80's/early 90's movie w/ Harrison Ford and Kristin Scott Thomas. Complete strangers that find out that their spouses were cheating w/ each other after they die seated next to each other on a plane that crashed... while on their way to a romantic getaway. Hell, they even had a "love nest" set up in an apartment.

HF's response upon finding out?

He immediately packs up and throws out all of his dead wife's stuff.

And hey... if a man can't take his cues from Han Solo...

ETA: Wow, I was way off... per IMDB, the movie (Random Hearts, thanks @arb) hit in 1999.

ETA #2: KST's character also found out that her best friend had been cheating w/ her deceased husband as well.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

GusPolinski said:


> Reminds me of that late 80's/early 90's movie w/ Harrison Ford and Kristin Scott Thomas. Complete strangers that find out that their spouses were cheating w/ each other after they die seatied next to each other on a plane that crashed... while on their way to a romantic getaway. Hell, they even had a "love nest" set up in an apartment.
> 
> His response upon finding out?
> 
> ...


*The name of the film is Random Hearts, 1999.

And no, I haven't seen that movie yet, Gus, but just merely hearing you relate the storyline of it is rather painful, just in and of itself!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

I'm a firm believer that the truth shall set you free, in all cases. 

It removes the overwhelming psychological guilt burdening you. 
It frees the other party from living in a forced lie of your devising.
It frees you from making choices for the other party about what he/she can/can't handle. 
It gets your arse landed on the street with all your sheet around you. But hey, you're free to carry on with life and so is the other person.


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

honcho said:


> Even keeping the secret to the grave doesn't guarantee it won't come out. A good friend of mine husband had an affair never told his wife. She learned of the affair two days after he died.
> 
> He kept a momento or two stashed away and when she was looking for some legal papers in his office found them. So not only was she mourning the loss of the man she loved for 30 years she is slapped with the reality her life was a lie.
> 
> Imagine her heart ache sitting at his funeral listening to the stories about what a "great" husband and father he was etc etc while she is being torn apart inside because she had just found out about his "secret". His cowardness left her with a lifetime of unanswered questions and it drove her to a full blown nervous breakdown. It took her a couple of years to get her life back together afterwards.


same thing with my sister. MArried a year, he died in a plane crash, she found his love letters a couple months later. Confronted OW, she admitted it. Awful.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

staarz21 said:


> Sorry but there is so much wrong with that.
> 
> Yes, the spouse does need to know. They have a right to CHOOSE if they want to be with someone who has betrayed them.


*And from a "dating" or premarital prospective, they also have the unfettered right to know their history, in if they have cheated on other people in their prior relationships; foremostly as a safeguard in knowing the "risk factor" of them cheating within the new relationship!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

From the perspective of a betrayed spouse, I feel I am entitled to live a life not based upon a lie. When my wife confessed I feel my bombed marriage now had truth. From the moment her affair started until her confession my life was based on a lie. Was she only in love with me? Was she in love with OM? We both added our problems to the marriage, we both could have done so many things differently and had a much better marriage. Her cheating and my living a lie is on her solely. 

Some say to never tell, some say honesty is best, we all react differently. Some people need every detail and some don't, each person is unique in their own way. What works for some doesn't with others. My issue is that I don't see the wayward confessing as selfish to relieve themselves of guilt. Rather I see the wayward confessing to begin healing themselves, to begin to live the best that they can be. If you choose to reconcile the wayward has to be truthful in details of the affair, that's their first step in healing them and the marriage. 

Truthfully this post would be a novel to list all the reasons for a wayward to speak the truth of an affair. Even when my wife confessed, I thought there must be more. I wondered if I could ever get the full truth, if she was strong enough to give me the entire truth. After being capable of deceiving me, the constant lies, how can a betrayed spouse know they've the full truth? My wife says I know all that happened, but after being betrayed at this level, your mind will always think you don't. In many ways this is very sad in itself, your spouse is untrusting, doesn't get much worse then that when you wake in the morning and look at your spouse sleeping. Your mind will wander, you will have doubts, you will have questions, you will question why this happened. Before the affair I would wake to see my wife sleeping, I would think how lucky I am, I would be amazed at her beauty, that on top of the world feeling. I pray that returns.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Vinnydee said:


> The reason is that the one confessing is being selfish. He or she wants to get rid of their guilt by rocking their spouse's world in a negative way. Even psychologist do not recommend telling your spouse and why do you feel that you are correct? Did you ever tell your spouse that you cheated? I did and she went from happy housewife to a suspicious wife whose stomach would knot up every time I was late or went away on business trips. You can forgive but you never can forget. How do you believe someone who just admitted to you that they are capable of lying? How do you believe that the reasons for them cheating will never happen again and that if she feels like she is being taken for granted, her solution will be to cheat again. BTW, a person's past behavior is a pretty good indicator of their future behavior.
> 
> I do not know you credentials but there is no upside to telling your spouse except your own relief of guilt. He or she does not need to know. We do not tell our spouses everything we do that will make them feel bad or sad. My wife was going crazy worrying if I would cheat again that she actually asked her girlfriend to have sex with me and then moved her into our home so that I did not have to stray to have sex with another woman. It worked and worked well but not many wives will do that. The point is that telling my wife changed our relationship. Just the other night she reminded me that I cheated on her. That happened 45 years ago. You can forgive but never forget. Do you tell you kids that there is no Santa Clause because you should not lie to them? Let's see, would I rather live my life happily with my wife or have her tell me that she found another man sexier or better than me and is sorry for doing so. I think ignorance really is bliss and by sparing your spouse the lifelong problems that will result by telling them to cheat simply because the guilt is eating you up is not only selfish but servers no purpose whatsoever. Do you think the spouse is going to be happy after being told? Do you think he/she will view their spouse in the same way. Ya think that the spouse will not feel anxious and jealous when his wife is gone for a few hours or on a business trip?
> 
> ...




I have no words.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

larry.gray said:


> The same story happened to my dad. They were married 43 years. My dad wasn't totally caught off guard as he had suspicions about my mom's boss. After she died, they cleaned out her office, dumped all personal items into several boxes and dropped them off with my dad. Going through he found more than one smoking gun that it had gone PA.



ouch


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

I saw a recent survey report in which 95% of respondents would want a cheating spouse to be honest and confess to an A. The same 95% indicated that they would never confess if they were the ones cheating. Such a paradox!


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

the guy said:


> Yep.
> Some want to call it a drug.....my old lady called it a band aid.


My wife said the exact thing in counseling. The "band aid" I later found out is a term that MC are taught regarding affairs.

Pure mumbo-jumbo...


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

@Vinnydee : Admittedly, you're talking about 20+ years ago... when cheating was far easier to get away with and your wife was more likely more dependent on YOU. 

Once caught cheating which is easier to be caught nowadays (and easier to hide at the same time) - the cheater has two choices : continue telling lies and partial truths or tell the WHOLE truth.

I can kind of understand the "old days" of having a stupid "oops moment" like getting drunk and stupid and giving someone a blow job and nobody will ever find out. I can see letting that one go, if that person never ever ever did it again. But thats not the same as an affair - which is continued deception & cheating. Once found out and the cheater wants to really CHANGE -then that person has to be 100% honest and actually do make changes.

Hell, my own mother got a sense, saw something of my WW and the OM do something - but wasn't sure. But she didn't want to tell me about it for the wrong reasons. Because she saw things I didn't two months before we had our blow-out. That bit of information would have changed how I would have handled things. Oh well.

I'll stand by the statement of Pros and those on TAM: once caught - tell the truth, period. Both the WS and the BS.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

stephscarlett said:


> same thing with my sister. MArried a year, he died in a plane crash, she found his love letters a couple months later. Confronted OW, she admitted it. Awful.


Ugh.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Forget about all the other BS (my SO would be crushed if they found out I cheated, I don't want to hurt them, etc...) if you cheated you were willing to pass along an STD (something that can not only impact your SOs health permanently but also impact their ability to get into other relationships if need be). Not telling them you gambled with their health is just pure cowardice.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

EllisRedding said:


> Forget about all the other BS (my SO would be crushed if they found out I cheated, I don't want to hurt them, etc...) if you cheated you were willing to pass along an STD (something that can not only impact your SOs health permanently but also impact their ability to get into other relationships if need be). Not telling them you gambled with their health is just pure cowardice.


If you are the WS and you are attempting to R after ending the A, couldn't you just abstain from sex for 6 months while you are working on yourself in the marriage?


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

MAJDEATH said:


> If you are the WS and you are attempting to R after ending the A, couldn't you just abstain from sex for 6 months while you are working on yourself in the marriage?


Well, if the WS doesn't want to give away they are cheating, they may try to act normal in their marriage which could mean continuing to have sex with the BS. I would not trust a WS with using logic such as "better not touch the BS b/c I could have an STD"


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## Kobold (Dec 5, 2015)

LosingHim said:


> Having not told for close to 3 years, I did not tell #1) because I didn’t want to hurt him. That part IS true. I couldn’t live with what I did, I didn’t want him to have that pain. But #2) because it would end my marriage and I couldn’t face that.
> 
> So yes, selfishness.


I hope you don't see this post as an attack on your character since I know that you now see how selfish your motives were back then, but your post perfectly illustrates in my mind why WS who claim they are remorseful and yet plan on taking it to their grave are only fooling themselves and I just wanted to use it as a jumping off point for my thoughts on the subject. 

It's both sickening and sad to read posts from the WS who are still actively engaging in the cover up and their attempts to ease their own conscience with overstated(and sometimes nonexistent) altruistic motives. WS who refuse to confess almost universally claim that they don't want to hurt their BS and I believe some of them are sincere when they say that, but very few of them will acknowledge that the underlying motive for their lying is just self interest(keeping their marriage, image, job etc.) more so than any concern they may have for their BS well being. 

My question to them is usually this "Why now are you so concerned and willing to be the martyr, where was this overwhelming concern for your BS while you were committing adultery?" I simply don't believe in their newly found moral compass since if they truly had changed to such a degree that their main focus is now their BS welfare, even if it comes at their expense, then being honest and transparent with their BS would be a given. You don't repeatedly lie to somebody you love more than yourself. 

There can be genuine shame, guilt and sadness without confession, but there can be no repentance. Repentance means tuning around and going in the opposite direction of the path that you've been on, if you're still actively lying and deceiving your spouse then you have not repented at all. (Not you specifically LH.)

There are so many valid reasons for telling the truth, but each one of them pales in comparison to the simple fact that every person deserves to make their own life decisions with all of the cards on the table. Just think of all the different choices a BS might have made in their life if they only knew that their spouse had cheated on them. How many BS would never have moved to that new town, or taken that particular job, or given up that particular friendship if they weren't being left in the dark about their own marriage. Each major life decision they made while under the false assumption that they had a marriage based on love and honesty was in actuality the WS robbing them of their own volition. 

The truly reprehensible cases I've seen(other than paternity fraud) are when the WS guilts their oblivious BS into marital counseling. Imagine the hubris it takes for a cheater to sit there and double team their BS with the counselor, going over just about everything the BS has ever done wrong, every perceived slight against the WS all while knowing what they've done to them. I've seen multiple WS who claim to be remorseful for their affair and yet deny their BS the truth while making them jump through hoops to "win" them back while the BS is completely unaware that they're now competing with the AP's "ghost".


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Vinnydee said:


> The reason is that the one confessing is being selfish. He or she wants to get rid of their guilt by rocking their spouse's world in a negative way. Even psychologist do not recommend telling your spouse and why do you feel that you are correct? Did you ever tell your spouse that you cheated? I did and she went from happy housewife to a suspicious wife whose stomach would knot up every time I was late or went away on business trips. You can forgive but you never can forget. How do you believe someone who just admitted to you that they are capable of lying? How do you believe that the reasons for them cheating will never happen again and that if she feels like she is being taken for granted, her solution will be to cheat again. BTW, a person's past behavior is a pretty good indicator of their future behavior.


Illogical.

One of the reasons for an adulterous person to disclose the affair would presumably be to help them ensure that an affair does not happen again if they reconcile.

It is also not selfish -- most people seek to avoid pain, and disclosing is painful. That's what drives the continued lying -- to avoid that pain, and avoid the possability of losing the relationship and the reputational impact.

This is a spectacularly weak arguement.



> I do not know you credentials but there is no upside to telling your spouse except your own relief of guilt. He or she does not need to know. We do not tell our spouses everything we do that will make them feel bad or sad. My wife was going crazy worrying if I would cheat again that she actually asked her girlfriend to have sex with me and then moved her into our home so that I did not have to stray to have sex with another woman. It worked and worked well but not many wives will do that. The point is that telling my wife changed our relationship. Just the other night she reminded me that I cheated on her. That happened 45 years ago. You can forgive but never forget. Do you tell you kids that there is no Santa Clause because you should not lie to them? Let's see, would I rather live my life happily with my wife or have her tell me that she found another man sexier or better than me and is sorry for doing so. I think ignorance really is bliss and by sparing your spouse the lifelong problems that will result by telling them to cheat simply because the guilt is eating you up is not only selfish but servers no purpose whatsoever. Do you think the spouse is going to be happy after being told? Do you think he/she will view their spouse in the same way. Ya think that the spouse will not feel anxious and jealous when his wife is gone for a few hours or on a business trip?


How about giving her the opportunity to decide if she needs to get an STD test? 

How about giving her the opportunity to decide if you're still the right person for her?

How about giving her the opportunity to help ensure that the causes and conditions for the affair don't happen again?

This is an immature and irrational arguement that you've made.



> My first thought when I was told is that once a cheater, always a cheater, because that is what I saw happening with my friends. Turns out that I was right. My ex married the guy she cheated on me with and then cheated on him for 20 years before leaving him to marry her girlfriend. I also dated cheating wives and almost all of them had told their husbands or were caught and went into the speech about never doing it again speech. Some also made their husbands feel that it was their fault for ignoring some need they had which instead of telling him about, felt that banging his best friend was the proper way to treat her problem.
> 
> If you cheat and feel guilty, just suck it up and resolve never to cheat again. That is much harder to do than take your guilt on dump it on your spouse to deal with.


Again, irrational. First you say 'once a cheater, always a cheater,' then you say 'suck it up and don't do it again and keep lying about it.'

These two cannot be reconciled within the same framework. This is a non sequitur.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

wanttolove said:


> I don't agree with this totally, but there is some validity to this statement. There are those who confess to clean their soul. It's done out of selfishness, to make the confessor feel better. It's not loving. It's not caring. It's dumping a stinky bucket of dirt.
> 
> Every situation is not the same and I don't believe that there is one answer. Do I think that honesty is the best policy? Yes. Some people may need to save that confession for when they feel _safe_, such as talking in front of a counselor, when the reasons can be hashed out, when it can be dealt with.
> 
> Funny, I have been told by many a person that if I chose to have an affair, it would be justified. Why? Because my wife has withheld sex from me for over a decade. But even that is not a justification to cheating. It is likely a justification for divorce, but not to cheat. Once again, honesty is the best policy.. and so is communication.


If you don't feel the physically safe enough to tell your spouse you're having sex with someone else, then you should have divorced them long ago. 

In your situation, you should have had a critical conversation with your wife 9.7 years ago. It should have gone like this:
Wife, you get to pick: 
A. Divorce. 
B. I get to sleep with other women. 
C. We start to have sex. 

I prefer c, but will not accept
D. I will be celibate forever because you won't have sex with me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

RWB said:


> My wife said the exact thing in counseling. The "band aid" I later found out is a term that MC are taught regarding affairs.
> 
> Pure mumbo-jumbo...



My wife is a clinical psychologist. Through her I have been acquainted with many other psychologists, clinical social workers, LMFT, etc. I can only think of maybe 2 who were still married to their first spouse at the time I knew them (and one was a young couple in their mid 20's). Most are divorced. A few are in a second or third marriage.

People don't generally become a psychologist or counselor accidentally. They have some underlying motivation. It isn't an easy path into the profession. Many have childhood traumas or grew up with seriously dysfunctional families. From my observations, infidelity within the ranks of counselors'/therapists' marriages is higher than average.

Psychology is a new field, and not a hard science, especially related to "normal" psychology such as dealing with marriages (as compared to dealing with schizophrenia, bipolar, etc). Most marriage therapists were taught by those who kind of invented MC. And those people grew up and were trained in a very different culture where infidelity was a big stigma. It could seriously affect one's entire career. A woman could be ostracized socially whether she was the WS or the OW.

The traditional approach of ICs to tell cheaters to not confess is based on all that baggage and history in the profession. The standard approach of MCs to rugsweep and work on fixing bad dynamics in the marriage is similarly based on that baggage and history.

When it comes to any issue within a relationship other than infidelity, the professional advice is to be honest. Professionals should be looking at why they have this inconsistency.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

I think the main question is do you withhold information that is hurtful/disappointing to a spouse? Does it make a difference whether withholding it temporarily or forever? 

Examples: 
Yes you look fat in those pants.
I forgot to pay that bill.
I got a speeding ticket.
Wasting time online instead of getting housework done.
Telling a spouse that is horrible with money management that the account is empty, when really there is money available.
Medical diagnosis that is not good, but may change.
Family members you can't stand.
Vasectomy/tubal ligation.
Clinic visit for VD.
Fired from job.
Spending money on things the spouse wouldn't like.
Shopping addiction.
Smoking/drinking.
Gambling.
Playing video games instead of watching the kids.


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

MAJDEATH said:


> I think the main question is do you withhold information that is hurtful/disappointing to a spouse? Does it make a difference whether withholding it temporarily or forever?
> 
> Examples:
> Yes you look fat in those pants.
> ...


"No those pants don't make you look fat" is _always_ acceptable. It's probably the only lie you can ever be justified in telling your SO lol.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

MAJDEATH said:


> I think the main question is do you withhold information that is hurtful/disappointing to a spouse? Does it make a difference whether withholding it temporarily or forever?
> 
> Examples:
> Yes you look fat in those pants.
> ...


If your spouse is an adult, you don't get to decide these things for them. 

If your spouse is not an adult, you should probably be in jail.

I question your motives.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Kivlor said:


> "No those pants don't make you look fat" is _always_ acceptable. It's probably the only lie you can ever be justified in telling your SO lol.


You forget "That tastes good" or "It is perfectly normal for chicken to be that dry"


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

EllisRedding said:


> You forget "That tastes good" or "It is perfectly normal for chicken to be that dry"


Oh God, I forgot that one! A girl once cooked me a meal and it wasn't very good. When she asked me how I liked it I said "It was edible."

Hell hath no fury...


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Kivlor said:


> Oh God, I forgot that one! A girl once cooked me a meal and it wasn't very good. When she asked me how I liked it I said "It was edible."
> 
> Hell hath no fury...


Haha, yeah, that was pretty ballsie (you know, never really had to spell out this word before).


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

marduk said:


> MAJDEATH said:
> 
> 
> > I think the main question is do you withhold information that is hurtful/disappointing to a spouse? Does it make a difference whether withholding it temporarily or forever?
> ...


I question your sense, because you don't make any. I was talking about communicating, and you are talking about making decisions?
I could only imagine a first date with you:
"I'm gonna need to see a list of all the people you had sex with, the positions used, their contact information, how long you dated, where you used to go, mutual friends, etc. I also need to see your medical records, your credit report, your tax returns, pay stubs, a list a bowel movement times/locations, a list of your periods, any abortions, birth control, breast enhancements, lipo, etc. How many tampons/pads you used in an average month. I also need a copy of your bank accounts, current bills, car titles, etc because I won't allow any secrets that only you think are not to be disclosed."

Christmas must be very hard for you







.


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

MAJDEATH said:


> I question your sense, because you don't make any. I was talking about communicating, and you are talking about making decisions?
> I could only imagine a first date with you:
> "I'm gonna need to see a list of all the people you had sex with, the positions used, their contact information, how long you dated, where you used to go, mutual friends, etc. I also need to see your medical records, your credit report, a list a bowel movement times/locations, a list of your periods, any abortions, birth control, breast enhancements, lipo, etc. How many tampons/pads you used in an average month. I also need a copy of your bank accounts, current bills, car titles, etc because I won't allow any secrets that only you think are not to be disclosed."
> 
> Christmas must be very hard for you .


I thought he made perfect sense. Your post wasn't about a date, it was about when it is okay to lie to your spouse.

Marduk's answer is never. He indicated that not telling your spouse about 



> Yes you look fat in those pants.
> I forgot to pay that bill.
> I got a speeding ticket.
> Wasting time online instead of getting housework done.
> ...


Would be robbing them of the opportunity to make decisions regarding their relationship with you. Some of them would rob your spouse of making decisions for their own health. Others would rob them of making decisions regarding the future of their family (ie gambling).

In that case, the act of lying (or omitting) would be in effect making these decisions for your spouse.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

MAJDEATH said:


> I question your sense, because you don't make any. I was talking about communicating, and you are talking about making decisions?
> I could only imagine a first date with you:
> "I'm gonna need to see a list of all the people you had sex with, the positions used, their contact information, how long you dated, where you used to go, mutual friends, etc. I also need to see your medical records, your credit report, a list a bowel movement times/locations, a list of your periods, any abortions, birth control, breast enhancements, lipo, etc. How many tampons/pads you used in an average month. I also need a copy of your bank accounts, current bills, car titles, etc because I won't allow any secrets that only you think are not to be disclosed."
> 
> Christmas must be very hard for you .


Lol.

You don't get to decide what reality is for people.

You can wrap lies up however you want -- including calling it compassion. It doesn't make a lie the truth.

"Does my ass look look big in this?"

If the answer is yes, a polite but truthful answer would be "that other outfit looks better on you."

Just like the question "Are you cheating on me?"

If the answer is yes, a polite but truthful answer could be "We should probably talk, there's some things you need to know. Let me know when you're ready, and how much you want to know."

These are two ends of a spectrum, but it's the same spectrum.

Do you enjoy controlling people's perceptions to your personal gain?


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

Kivlor said:


> Oh God, I forgot that one! A girl once cooked me a meal and it wasn't very good. When she asked me how I liked it I said "It was edible."
> 
> Hell hath no fury...


So you're saying you didn't get laid that night.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

marduk said:


> MAJDEATH said:
> 
> 
> > I question your sense, because you don't make any. I was talking about communicating, and you are talking about making decisions?
> ...


The world (including marriages) is never black and white, right and wrong. There's always a lot of grey area in it. Sometimes the victim of the affair is not the victim of the marriage. Adultery is only one way to hurt your spouse. Neglect, abuse, abandonment, etc can be much worse than adultery. To tell would be to invite more abuse. It could be self preservation.

There may be different levels to providing hurtful information:
1 if he asks, I'll tell him
2 if he asks, I'll provide trickle truth
3 if he asks, I'll provide full truth now
4 if he asks, I'll provide full truth in 3 months
5 I'll never tell him, no matter what
6 I'll just tell him, even if he doesn't ask
7 I'll let him find out on his own, or have someone else tell him, like a counselor

If men really told their wives how many times a day they think about sex, or wonder what the ladies around them really were like in bed, or look like naked, there would be very few married men.


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

MAJDEATH said:


> If men really told their wives how many times a day they think about sex, or wonder what the ladies around them really were like in bed, or look like naked, there would be very few married men.


this makes me sad. and wondering about the guys I work with.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

stephscarlett said:


> this makes me sad. and wondering about the guys I work with.


Women do it too and not all men do it to the extent he posted.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

MAJDEATH said:


> The world (including marriages) is never black and white, right and wrong. There's always a lot of grey area in it. Sometimes the victim of the affair is not the victim of the marriage. Adultery is only one way to hurt your spouse. Neglect, abuse, abandonment, etc can be much worse than adultery. To tell would be to invite more abuse. It could be self preservation.


If you're being abused, cheating _increases the risk odds you'll be abused more._ So it's an irrational argument that cheating as a response to abuse is a valid argument.

Same goes for neglect.



> There may be different levels to providing hurtful information:
> 1 if he asks, I'll tell him
> 2 if he asks, I'll provide trickle truth
> 3 if he asks, I'll provide full truth now
> ...


You are obligated to tell the person who's making decisions based on your behaviour what your behaviour actually is.

There are no shades of grey here, man. Try to hide all you like.

Your arguments are simply an irrational shotgun approach to rationalizing your desire to not be truthful.



> If men really told their wives how many times a day they think about sex, or wonder what the ladies around them really were like in bed, or look like naked, there would be very few married men.


Are you a politician?

I tell my wife exactly that. Respectfully, politely, sensitively... But exactly that.

"Do you think she's hot?"

"She's very attractive, but I would rather be with you." (Polite but the truth).

"Would you like to have sex with her?" 

"If I were single, I might try to. But I'm not single."

Etc.

You don't have to lie to women to keep them around you. In fact, you shouldn't. My wife is extremely jealous... And she would still rather that I be honest with her (sensitively) than lie to her.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

stephscarlett said:


> this makes me sad. and wondering about the guys I work with.


If you're attractive, people of the opposite sex (and sometimes the same sex) are going to picture you naked or fantasize about you all the time.

It's just human nature.


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

marduk said:


> You don't have to lie to women to keep them around you. In fact, you shouldn't. My wife is extremely jealous... And she would still rather that I be honest with her (sensitively) than lie to her.


Sensitively is definitely the operative word here.

Take my case for example:

"It's edible" was a very poor choice of words lol.


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

marduk said:


> If you're attractive, people of the opposite sex (and sometimes the same sex) are going to picture you naked or fantasize about you all the time.
> 
> It's just human nature.


I don't think I've ever pictured an attractive person naked.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

stephscarlett said:


> I don't think I've ever pictured an attractive person naked.


Really? 

What happens when some hot dude walks by? Do you fantasize about other people at all? Ever?


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

stephscarlett said:


> I don't think I've ever pictured an attractive person naked.



I'm curious, is this where you work? :wink2:

I keed, I keed... but seriously...


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

I would never find a man attractive unless I knew his personality. My husband doesn't believe this but that's how it works for me. 
I would maybe think high maintenance if i saw a guy who could be perceived as attractive. 
Mostly, for fit women and men I wonder what their fitness regimen is and if it would work for me. 
I work at a school.


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## SnowToArmPits (Jan 2, 2016)

stephscarlett said:


> this makes me sad. and wondering about the guys I work with.


Well it's not just you, they're likely fantasying about every woman in your workplace :smile2:

Not sure this helps any, but could I persuade you that guys can't help it, we're wired that way? Male mind: sex, sex, sex, food, sex, sex, sports, sex.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

stephscarlett said:


> I don't think I've ever pictured an attractive person naked.


Unless your AP was ugly, didn't you picture him naked or think about sex with him before you had sex?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

Nope. I maybe pictured how it might be but certainly not how it would look, if that makes sense...


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

stephscarlett said:


> I would never find a man attractive unless I knew his personality. My husband doesn't believe this but that's how it works for me.
> I would maybe think high maintenance if i saw a guy who could be perceived as attractive.
> Mostly, for fit women and men I wonder what their fitness regimen is and if it would work for me.
> I work at a school.


Never mind. Answered my question.

This makes you an exception but not the rule.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

stephscarlett said:


> Nope. I maybe pictured how it might be but certainly not how it would look, if that makes sense...


Same concept just less visual.
I'm actually less likely to picture people naked myself.

I have only seldom thought about having sex with someone after age 16 that is, until the last few years.

That could be midlife or purely psychological for me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KimatraAKM (May 1, 2013)

MAJDEATH said:


> I think the main question is do you withhold information that is hurtful/disappointing to a spouse? Does it make a difference whether withholding it temporarily or forever?
> 
> Examples:
> Yes you look fat in those pants.
> ...


I've lied about lots of these things. All for great reasons or because it's none of his business. 

If he acts like a kid I have to treat him like one. He can't control money so I have to help guide him into not bankrupting us all. He doesn't really care how I'm doing so why would I share fears or triumphs with him? He cheated on me and fell in love with another girl before changing his mind and coming back, then didn't fullfill any of the requirements for R.. so why would I tell him about my revenge affair that lasted all of 2 days almost 3 years ago? 

I'm in the "if it's over and done, don't tell" boat.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

KimatraAKM said:


> I've lied about lots of these things. All for great reasons or because it's none of his business.
> 
> If he acts like a kid I have to treat him like one. He can't control money so I have to help guide him into not bankrupting us all. He doesn't really care how I'm doing so why would I share fears or triumphs with him? He cheated on me and fell in love with another girl before changing his mind and coming back, then didn't fullfill any of the requirements for R.. so why would I tell him about my revenge affair that lasted all of 2 days almost 3 years ago?
> 
> I'm in the "if it's over and done, don't tell" boat.


Why didn't you just leave him for the above instead of having a revenge affair?


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

marduk said:


> Ethically and morally, there is only one choice and that is full disclosure.
> 
> #1 the health implications with STDs.
> #2 you have to give adults the ability to make informed decisions about their life. This is kind of the bedrock of western civilization.
> ...


I agree with you 100%. However, that is me. Your views and mine our soon to be OUTdated, Mr. Cyrano DE Bergerac Marduk. Tilt at those windmills, no buddy gives a rats petooooty.

Here comes the but: the head butt: We do not live in a black and white world.....yeah, yeah fifty shades of grey... everything that feels good and does not do SERIOUS damage is a GO!

If you expect people to be rational, you will be continually disappointed in this life, in this and in former eras. Future eras will get worse due to the continuing breakdown in family structures and the pressure on marriages from those damn hedonists !! People are marrying later, some not at all--> Western Nations. Third world countries, not true....witness fierce future competition for dwindling resources. War-be comin.....DAmn depressssin.

Stat: in the U.S. [45% females/60% males will/have cheated]. The hand writing is on the wall and the finger paint is on the lower torso.

Marriages will get fuzzier. Boundaries, well....be harder to keep from being overrun by.....societal shifting pushing Hollywood, Bollywood inspired lust. Ladies and Gentlemen do not know that they are unhappy and missing out, until Hollywood and Liberalism tells them they are.............miserable. The bulls and heifers will keep jumping the fence and escape the pasture, where the grass is ever so sweet over there.

You are right but you are losing the moral high ground. High ground keeps slipping down the slope from all the tears that flow out of the BS's eyes.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

KimatraAKM said:


> I've lied about lots of these things. All for great reasons or because it's none of his business.
> 
> If he acts like a kid I have to treat him like one. He can't control money so I have to help guide him into not bankrupting us all. He doesn't really care how I'm doing so why would I share fears or triumphs with him? He cheated on me and fell in love with another girl before changing his mind and coming back, then didn't fullfill any of the requirements for R.. so why would I tell him about my revenge affair that lasted all of 2 days almost 3 years ago?
> 
> I'm in the "if it's over and done, don't tell" boat.


You two probably deserve each other.

There are a lot of people in your boat that think cheating and lying are fine as long as you get away with it.

Congrats.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

I have to agree with Marduk here, although the cheater escapes without being detected openly by the betrayed spouse, there is almost always an effect on the relationship. 

I've often seen that the couple ends up with a version of their pre-affair marriage even worse, but held together by guilt and fear and the greed of wanting to keep what they have.

Tamat


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

SunCMars said:


> You are right but you are losing the moral high ground. High ground keeps slipping down the slope from all the tears that flow out of the BS's eyes.


I don't think Marduk's viewpoint is losing the moral high ground, it is just losing popularity. And it's a shame.

If morality is objective, taking the moral position can never cost one the moral high ground. But it can cost them the culture war. The only way for Marduk's position to lose the high ground is for morality to be relative. 

And if morality is relative, morality may as well not exist at all.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

KimatraAKM said:


> I've lied about lots of these things. All for great reasons or because it's none of his business.
> 
> If he acts like a kid I have to treat him like one. He can't control money so I have to help guide him into not bankrupting us all. He doesn't really care how I'm doing so why would I share fears or triumphs with him? He cheated on me and fell in love with another girl before changing his mind and coming back, then didn't fullfill any of the requirements for R.. so why would I tell him about my revenge affair that lasted all of 2 days almost 3 years ago?
> 
> I'm in the "if it's over and done, don't tell" boat.


Actually your H comes off about as attractive as a bucket of buttholes but you didn't have to stay or lower yourself.

You also have one up on him in the race to lower yourselves. You're still lying about your trist.

Your marriage sounds devoid of any dignity, love, respect or honor.

So why?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KimatraAKM (May 1, 2013)

marduk said:


> Why didn't you just leave him for the above instead of having a revenge affair?


I originally didnt leave because everyone (including the IC and MC had me believing I had to give him another chance) and by 2 years later (when my ra happened) I was so bitter that I just wanted to get even for feeling tricked into R. I thought itd put us on the same level and id feel less like a naive lil girl for taking him back.


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

KimatraAKM said:


> I originally didnt leave because everyone (including the IC and MC had me believing I had to give him another chance) and by 2 years later (when my ra happened) I was so bitter that I just wanted to get even for feeling tricked into R. I thought itd put us on the same level and id feel less like a naive lil girl for taking him back.


So... did you succeed in getting even with your RA? 

Do you feel like your on the same level, now that you've sunk to his level?

Did it change how you feel about taking him back?


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## KimatraAKM (May 1, 2013)

No to all those questions. The RA was the worst thing I've ever done. If I could go back i so would. It was a horrible experience before during and after. But this isn't a thread about having an affair, this is a thread about telling or not telling and im firmly in the don't tell boat. There weren't many votes for it so I was putting in my own point of view. Take it, leave it, hate it, it's just how I feel. 


At this point telling would be selfish. I'd end up hurting our kids. If he left that'd be great. But knowing him he wouldn't leave.. He'd use it to make our lives even worse. We're at least at a level right now that we can coexist. Really losing him isn't a concern. If he left fine. But if we divorced no one would be able to protect the kids from him. And I'd have to pay alimony... So... Better to stay.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Kivlor said:


> I don't think Marduk's viewpoint is losing the moral high ground, it is just losing popularity. And it's a shame.
> 
> If morality is objective, taking the moral position can never cost one the moral high ground. But it can cost them the culture war. The only way for Marduk's position to lose the high ground is for morality to be relative.
> 
> And if morality is relative, morality may as well not exist at all.


I'm a moral relativist in the sense that what some Paleolithic human thought was a good idea probably made sense at the time and I cannot morally judge his behaviour. 

Ethics are quite different. These include our social agreements that we share in our civilization. For example, when we marry and agree to be monogamous, that means that we should now be monogamous. 

What I'm really getting at however is being rational. 

Rationality, not just morality or ethics, demand that people be given the right to govern their own actions with sufficient information to do so -- this is the underlying structure of western civilization with mandated education, the rule of law, freedom of the press, taxation with representation, etc. 

Basically, it's bad when you don't do those things because eventually people will kill each other over it. 

This is a subset of that, but the rationality holds.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

KimatraAKM said:


> No to all those questions. The RA was the worst thing I've ever done. If I could go back i so would. It was a horrible experience before during and after. But this isn't a thread about having an affair, this is a thread about telling or not telling and im firmly in the don't tell boat. There weren't many votes for it so I was putting in my own point of view. Take it, leave it, hate it, it's just how I feel.
> 
> 
> At this point telling would be selfish. I'd end up hurting our kids. If he left that'd be great. But knowing him he wouldn't leave.. He'd use it to make our lives even worse. We're at least at a level right now that we can coexist. Really losing him isn't a concern. If he left fine. But if we divorced no one would be able to protect the kids from him. And I'd have to pay alimony... So... Better to stay.


Disagree with everything. The premise, the outcome, and your actions. 

Without judging you as a person.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

KimatraAKM said:


> No to all those questions. The RA was the worst thing I've ever done. If I could go back i so would. It was a horrible experience before during and after. But this isn't a thread about having an affair, this is a thread about telling or not telling and im firmly in the don't tell boat. There weren't many votes for it so I was putting in my own point of view. Take it, leave it, hate it, it's just how I feel.
> 
> 
> At this point telling would be selfish. I'd end up hurting our kids. If he left that'd be great. But knowing him he wouldn't leave.. He'd use it to make our lives even worse. We're at least at a level right now that we can coexist. Really losing him isn't a concern. If he left fine. But if we divorced no one would be able to protect the kids from him. And I'd have to pay alimony... So... Better to stay.


Well it is a sham and not desirable.

Your situation doesn't sound at all healthy or inviting.

I'd say another vote for honesty here. Your outcome is no good.
_Posted via Mobile Device_

P.S. I am very sorry a bunch of idiots convinced you to stay and I'm glad you are still kicking.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

KimatraAKM said:


> He cheated on me and fell in love with another girl before changing his mind and coming back, then didn't fullfill any of the requirements for R.. so why would I tell him about my revenge affair that lasted all of 2 days almost 3 years ago?


Do you wish you never found out about his affair? How would things be different for you now if you never found out about it?


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

marduk said:


> Kivlor said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think Marduk's viewpoint is losing the moral high ground, it is just losing popularity. And it's a shame.
> ...


If you only knew some of the things our government does without telling us, or the misinformation that we are made to believe. Trust them like a betraying spouse, they both have your best interests in mind.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

MAJDEATH said:


> If you only knew some of the things our government does without telling us, or the misinformation that we are made to believe. Trust them like a betraying spouse, they both have your best interests in mind.


You made another point for honesty there.

Exactly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

ConanHub said:


> MAJDEATH said:
> 
> 
> > If you only knew some of the things our government does without telling us, or the misinformation that we are made to believe. Trust them like a betraying spouse, they both have your best interests in mind.
> ...


I guarantee your W lies to you everyday - "That's the biggest one I ever saw dear".


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## river rat (Jan 20, 2012)

I don't believe for an instant that I can speak to what is right for everyone in this situation. But I have tried to live my life as honestly as I could. I believe that if my wife had told me the truth at any point before my walking out the door, there would have been at least a chance to salvage our marriage. Moot point now, as the divorce was final last month.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

MAJDEATH said:


> If you only knew some of the things our government does without telling us, or the misinformation that we are made to believe. Trust them like a betraying spouse, they both have your best interests in mind.


Exactly. 

According to this month's economist that I read on the way into work this morning, American public trust in their government sits at 19% as opposed to something approaching 80% in the '50s.

Which is what happens when lying becomes the norm. Just like in marriages.

There is only one solution. Honesty and allowing people to make decisions with the facts and trusting to enlightened self-interest.

You're only making my case for me.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Unless my W has been proven to be a pathological liar of magnanimous proportions, then my love and honor for her deems that I accept her word as the absolute and unmitigated truth! 

By the very same token and in addition to our wedding vows to each other, there is an implied, built-in, and trusted pact between the two of us that neither of us will be covertly and sexually spreading our thighs in the presence of another man or woman!

Any deviation from that is a total deal breaker and a marriage-ender!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

marduk said:


> Exactly.
> 
> According to this month's economist that I read on the way into work this morning, American public trust in their government sits at 19% as opposed to something approaching 80% in the '50s.
> 
> ...


Yet our government continues to have an affair in front of our eyes, while telling us what we see, is not real. "No honey, that was not my penis in his buttocks, you were having a bad dream. Go back to sleep" - comes to mind.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

TaDor said:


> Yet our government continues to have an affair in front of our eyes, while telling us what we see, is not real. "No honey, that was not my penis in his buttocks, you were having a bad dream. Go back to sleep" - comes to mind.


Hey, it's your government. I'm Canadian.

You look like a bunch of loonies to us.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

LOL!!! Meanwhile - you got that world known Mayor of yours 

But yeah, the USA should be better than this... .but lets not let into politics.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

MAJDEATH said:


> I guarantee your W lies to you everyday - "That's the biggest one I ever saw dear".


Hahaha! Does your wife tell you that?

She tells me I'm big, I am, but her first husband was sporting a log. I only rate a bat. Her words.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

TaDor said:


> Yet our government continues to have an affair in front of our eyes, while telling us what we see, is not real. "No honey, that was not my penis in his buttocks, you were having a bad dream. Go back to sleep" - comes to mind.


All right.... I laughed...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sharplle (May 1, 2012)

*Deidre* said:


> Actually, I happen to think affairs to a cheater are like drugs to an addict. They want to escape something that truly bothers them in their past, or in their present, and it rarely has to do with the marriage or their spouse. I've read threads on here where the BS is seeking as to what they might have done better, differently etc...and the truth is, most likely the answer to that is nothing. Because cheating isn't a sign of a bad marriage, it's a sign of bad character, for people who are not happy in their marriage could man up/woman up and say 'I'm not happy,' and seek to either work on the marriage or leave. But, they want to keep their house, their lifestyle, the kids happy, their money, their assets, etc...AND keep their 'drug' on the side.


I think you are absolutely correct and to my demise I have just found this out! Nice Post!!!


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

MAJDEATH said:


> I think the main question is do you withhold information that is hurtful/disappointing to a spouse? Does it make a difference whether withholding it temporarily or forever?
> 
> Examples:
> Yes you look fat in those pants.
> ...


This is obviously not an exhaustive list, but in every one of those cases, choosing to not tell the truth (or withold, if you prefer) does no good IMO. You are selling falsehoods, false words, false thoughts, false feelings and false responses. If you can't be true to yourself, let alone to a spouse or loved one, then you're always crafting ways to navigate around your truth. After a time, your truth becomes lost in living for the reality of another... Or many others. 

Being truthful can be difficult, it can hurt, it can heal, it can shock, it can do a number of things, but for me personally, it frees me from having to do anything more than just tell it. Theres my truth in all its glory, take it or leave it. If I lie or withold, I have to remember what I did, who I did it to, and for how long I must maintain it. It's a juggling act I prefer not to play. When there are too many balls in the air, and more being added constantly, it's only a matter of time before one or more gets dropped. 

People are not perfect and they make their own decisions. Owning those decisions to others is part of being an adult. Responding to criticisms from others about our choices is part of being an adult.

Just my 2¢.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

Satya said:


> ~~
> Being truthful can be difficult, it can hurt, it can heal, it can shock, it can do a number of things, but for me personally, it frees me from having to do anything more than just tell it. Theres my truth in all its glory, take it or leave it. If I lie or withold, I have to remember what I did, who I did it to, and for how long I must maintain it. ~~
> People are not perfect and they make their own decisions. Owning those decisions to others is part of being an adult. Responding to criticisms from others about our choices is part of being an adult.
> Just my 2¢.


Yep! With my wayward being truthful, its amazing **AND HEALING** to hear her say "I was finding ways to justify my actions, that it was OKAY to do these horrible things to you".

My WW still calls herself a horrible person, even this morning. I responded with something like "you did horrible things, but as long as you strive to be a better person - then that is the best you can do." Our household is still badly damaged, but she is doing her best to make things better. She asks me "What can I do to make your stress and life easier?".

Truth is a powerful thing.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

TaDor said:


> Yep! With my wayward being truthful, its amazing **AND HEALING** to hear her say "I was finding ways to justify my actions, that it was OKAY to do these horrible things to you".
> 
> My WW still calls herself a horrible person, even this morning. I responded with something like "you did horrible things, but as long as you strive to be a better person - then that is the best you can do." Our household is still badly damaged, but she is doing her best to make things better. She asks me "What can I do to make your stress and life easier?".
> 
> Truth is a powerful thing.


I've spoken with many betrayed husbands, and almost without exception they want to find a way to keep the marriage and family intact. A WW who acts like yours would give them hope and a reason to try. Just being honest makes all the difference. Forgiveness is actually fairly easy when the betrayer is genuinely remorseful and openly honest.

Sadly, most WW (and I'm sure most WH) are incapable of honesty.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Thor said:


> I've spoken with many betrayed husbands, and *almost without exception they want to find a way to keep the marriage and family intact. *A WW who acts like yours would give them hope and a reason to try. Just being honest makes all the difference. Forgiveness is actually fairly easy when the betrayer is genuinely remorseful and openly honest.
> 
> Sadly, most WW (and I'm sure most WH) are incapable of honesty.


The bolded is not the impression I get from TAM.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

jld said:


> Thor said:
> 
> 
> > I've spoken with many betrayed husbands, and *almost without exception they want to find a way to keep the marriage and family intact. *A WW who acts like yours would give them hope and a reason to try. Just being honest makes all the difference. Forgiveness is actually fairly easy when the betrayer is genuinely remorseful and openly honest.
> ...


It seems the TAM forum is full of betrayed husbands with so much pride/ego that they were quick to D.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

MAJDEATH said:


> It seems the TAM forum is full of betrayed husbands with so much pride/ego that they were quick to D.


It seems to me that the world is full of spouses eager to either give or receive D with people that they aren't married to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

jld said:


> The bolded is not the impression I get from TAM.


First, my experience is based on talking to men in person, not the TAM population. The exceptions I see are the younger men who are married a short period of time and have no kids. Or, their wife had a long term affair, or she had a series of affairs. Those men have been pushed beyond their limits immediately. 

But the others see the option of divorce as sub-optimal. Life is going to be a compromise whichever way they go. They'd rather keep the family together. That's a big thing around here.

The people who seek out TAM are likely in more desperate shape with more egregious infidelity than average.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MAJDEATH said:


> It seems the TAM forum is full of betrayed husbands with so much pride/ego that they were quick to D.


And it does not help that they often encourage it to newbies.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Thor said:


> But the others see the option of divorce as sub-optimal. Life is going to be a compromise whichever way they go. *They'd rather keep the family together.*


I am encouraged to hear this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

jld said:


> I am encouraged to hear this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Want to keep the family together, don't fv$k someone who isn't your spouse, doesn't seem like asking a lot


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

EllisRedding said:


> Want to keep the family together, don't fv$k someone who isn't your spouse, doesn't seem like asking a lot


Some people have the perspective that if the wife cheats, it's because the husband failed, and that failure only gets doubled if the husband then walks away from the marriage. 

In that model, the wife has been victimized three times - one by the husband, one by the other man for having sex with her, and then again by the husband for leaving. 

And the real victim of course is the kids. But the wife is the innocent victim in all that as well. Deserving of compassion and hall passes and more work by the husband to prove he's deserving of her reconciling, undying trust, and understanding if she falls back in other men's beds in the future. 

Because that will be the husband's fault too. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

Thor said:


> I've spoken with many betrayed husbands, and almost without exception they want to find a way to keep the marriage and family intact. A WW who acts like yours would give them hope and a reason to try. Just being honest makes all the difference. Forgiveness is actually fairly easy when the betrayer is genuinely remorseful and openly honest.
> 
> Sadly, most WW (and I'm sure most WH) are incapable of honesty.


 Statistically, WW leave while WH will try to reconcile. Also, doctors have determine what affairs are mentally damaging to women (They do think differently than men).

I'm not desperate to keep my marriage intact, but *I* made promises to my wayward I've kept since our first date. Which were brought up in the DA's office - that she said I had kept. I've never hit her or called her names. But also for us to be there for each other. I've been with hundreds of women and my WW still *does* it for me, in and out of the bedroom.

No more lies are allowed. Two, I had an anxiety attack at the store and I got home ASAP to take a pill - it wasn't about the affair specificity, but the major changes in life caused by it. I was so shut down that I had difficulty walking and driving.

I am not a "weak" type of person. But since the affair, I've had bad panic attacks with BP 170+. This is not how I normally am. She cuddles and massages me until my body relaxes and the pill kicks in. Soon she is crying, "I did this to you, I'm so sorry".

Hopefully in a few months, or faster - these attacks will be gone.

Then yesterday, I got frustrated with a stupid commercial kiosk that made me angry which lead to an attack that I had to walk away to cool off. When I came back, she was shaking with my un-usual behavior.

The affair caused us both pain, but her's is nothing compared to mine. We're taking steps one day at a time, honesty and talking about our feelings. Rather than ignore her shaking, I asked her about it. Rather than her being silent, she told me. So we both hugged for a good while to calm each other down.

Cheaters not only lie to loved ones, they lie to themselves. So telling the truth, can also helps them.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

TaDor said:


> Statistically, WW leave while WH will try to reconcile. Also, doctors have determine what affairs are mentally damaging to women (They do think differently than men).


Could you provide a link to these statistics, please? Because Elegirl referenced an article a few years ago that said that women are seven times more likely to remain with a cheating husband than vice versa. 

And could you elaborate or provide a reference on what affairs are damaging to women according to those doctors? 

Thank you, TaDor.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

Cheating wives are likely to leave betrayed husbands. Its common, easier to run away from their problems.

Here are some links:
Infidelity & Adultery: 8 Things You Didn't Know About Cheaters | YourTango
(Also there are lots of stories here about women leaving - then come crawling back when reality sets in)

This is a good one: Your Social Worker - Gary Direnfeld, MSW, RSW
"What is most important for women to realize is that this is not a healthy loving relationship. More to the point, these relationships can be insidiously emotionally and psychologically abusive of women."

My WW was getting worse by the week - nightmares, talking in her sleep, grinding her teeth, I thought it was work related - but she was in turmoil. Once everything was out and POM is gone, etc... she is emotionally stable and sleeps a lot better nowadays.

Now, this doesn't mean I suggest guys give women a FREE pass. It depends on a lot of factors. If she had been doing it for several months or years - I'd be gone.


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## New_Beginnings (Nov 16, 2015)

The only one a cheater is protecting is their self. If they have no plans on leaving they don't want the possibility of being rejected and left by their spouse. They see being truthful about their act can bring more damage to the marriage. 

It's a selfish act, if you can't bare to hurt your spouse than you wouldn't cheat. A spouse should have the proper respect as to know the truth. Yes a cheater may regret their cheating but it should be up to their spouse to chose if they want to work through it and or remove their self. Own your choices and allow your partner the right to chose if they want to continue with a partner who betrayed their loyalty/vows.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

TaDor said:


> Cheating wives are likely to leave betrayed husbands. Its common, easier to run away from their problems.
> 
> Here are some links:
> Infidelity & Adultery: 8 Things You Didn't Know About Cheaters | YourTango
> ...


I did not see anything in that tango article that supported your assertion that women are more likely to leave a cheater than men, TaDor. Could you point out what I may have missed?

Your second link was very good:

_"Scratch the surface and what may transpire is one emotionally vulnerable adult and another adult seeking sexual gratification. *More often than not, it will be the woman who is emotionally vulnerable and the man who is seeking the sexual gratification. *Upon this scenario, the man professes his love and the woman in part feels completed by his attention and in part badly about herself for the context of the relationship.

*What is most important for women to realize is that this is not a healthy loving relationship. More to the point, these relationships can be insidiously emotionally and psychologically abusive of women*."_

I agree completely with the bolded statements from the author. Thank you for sharing that link.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

jld said:


> I did not see anything in that tango article that supported your assertion that women are more likely to leave a cheater than men, TaDor. Could you point out what I may have missed?
> 
> Your second link was very good:
> 
> ...


And yet, they still make a choice to do so.

There is that annoying "consequence" word again.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> And yet, they still make a choice to do so.
> 
> There is that annoying "consequence" word again.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


And they pay the price for it.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

_*Overall, women are more likely than men to forgive a cheating spouse.*

"So one-night stands and use of prostitutes is less threatening than is a long-term, emotionally bonded extramarital relationship," Amato told LiveScience. "Wives are more likely to forgive their husbands if their husbands were not 'in love' with the other woman."

Amato said men are not as concerned about the emotional connection between their wives and the third party. Even still, husbands "don't want their wives fooling around under any circumstances," Amato said.

*Women also tend to take the family into account when pondering a split-up.*

"*Women are more likely to take into account their children, their economics, their general survival*," Schwartz said. "*Men are just crushed or upset about what happened to them*. They won't think as quickly about their children as the first or second issue; but they will eventually consider that." She added that men generally experience a flooding of anger over the violation.

That rise in blood pressure could result from a guy's perception of cheating as something done to him more than something done to the relationship.

"*Men are less willing to forgive*," said Ruth Houston, founder of Infidelity Advice and author of "Is He Cheating on You? - 829 Telltale Signs." She added, "Men view infidelity as a statement about their manhood, so *it's such an affront to him that most men cannot get over this hurdle*."

Practical concerns can also steer a woman in one direction or the other. 

"Wives are also less likely to consider divorce if they are economically dependent on their husbands, have children or hold strong religious views," Amato said. "Nevertheless, most wives at least consider the option of divorce. And, in fact, infidelity is the marital problem most likely to lead to divorce."_

Source: _LiveScience_


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## New_Beginnings (Nov 16, 2015)

When a spouse suspects cheating and the affair is denied, the spouse is led to believe they're crazy. They begin to question themselves and already begin the emotional ride of who should they trust. This makes the healing and forgiveness cycle much longer than one admitting to their unfaithful act. 

It took 5years for me to fully forgive my Husband. Yes, time helped heal the wound but him fully admitting what I suspected for so long allowed me to free myself from those suspicions. I had already 90% healed but this allowed me to let it go. I believe the transparency helped make our bond stronger. I saw true remorse for what he had done throughout the years. I don't believe I should be held in a lie in a marriage. A spouse should be someone you can confide in. If we can't be honest with each other than I would want out of my marriage.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

New_Beginnings said:


> When a spouse suspects cheating and the affair is denied, the spouse is led to believe they're crazy. They begin to question themselves and already begin the emotional ride of who should they trust. This makes the healing and forgiveness cycle much longer than one admitting to their unfaithful act.
> 
> It took 5years for me to fully forgive my Husband. Yes, time helped heal the wound but him fully admitting what I suspected for so long allowed me to free myself from those suspicions. I had already 90% healed but this allowed me to let it go. I believe the transparency helped make our bond stronger. I saw true remorse for what he had done throughout the years. I don't believe I should be held in a lie in a marriage. A spouse should be someone you can confide in. If we can't be honest with each other than I would want out of my marriage.


I agree with total transparency in marriage, NB. I think it is essential for true intimacy.

I just think it is risky to try to force it, instead of inviting it, and modeling it.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Someone much wiser than myself once said: 

"Cheating is a choice! Not an excuse!"*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## New_Beginnings (Nov 16, 2015)

jld said:


> _*Overall, women are more likely than men to forgive a cheating spouse.*
> 
> "So one-night stands and use of prostitutes is less threatening than is a long-term, emotionally bonded extramarital relationship," Amato told LiveScience. "Wives are more likely to forgive their husbands if their husbands were not 'in love' with the other woman."
> 
> ...



I agree with your bold statements, at least pertaining to my marriage. My husband only came clean, when I shared my wrongs. (We weren't married when we cheated). 

We both lacked respect for one another before our first born. We both were selfish and didn't have eachothers best interest at heart. We lived for self, in a toxic relationship. That slowly changed once I had our daughter. 

I asked him many times about a particular woman. He denied and denied. I held onto what I had done due to our bad relationship (alcoholism on his part). It was a safety mechanism on my part at that time. He eventually gave up the drinking which helped keep us together. It took 2yrs into our marriage to have a heated past history conversation to bring up infidelities. I was relieved to hear him admit because I was angry for so long from being lied to. I never felt I could trust 100%. I was at 90% but because of cheating I couldn't fully give him 100%. He was crushed to hear my transgressions and I felt awful. The past cheating can ultimately one day ruin my marriage, if we continue to bring those issues into arguments as a defense. 

Would I rather not know, no. I rather know and be capable of deciding if he's someone I want to work things out with. If he wanted to leave me, would I be hurt? of course. I would ultimately heal and learn through my own mistakes and not apply the same ones if I ever want a healthy and real relationship/marriage.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

arbitrator said:


> *Someone much wiser than myself once said:
> 
> "Cheating is a choice! Not an excuse!"*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I was thinking about this, and although I understand an EA can be equally as damaging as a PA, to an extend you could argue an EA may not completely be a choice, or maybe better put, pursuing an EA is a choice, but developing feelings for someone can be hard to control. With a PA, it is 100% choice, no one forces you to get nekked and bump uglies.


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## New_Beginnings (Nov 16, 2015)

arbitrator said:


> *Someone much wiser than myself once said:
> 
> "Cheating is a choice! Not an excuse!"*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Agreed.


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## New_Beginnings (Nov 16, 2015)

EllisRedding said:


> arbitrator said:
> 
> 
> > *Someone much wiser than myself once said:
> ...



I believe an EA is also a choice. If you can feel what you're doing is wrong, you can choose to remove yourself from sharing anymore. You can choose to fall back to your spouse and fix what is missing, instead of finding what you're missing in someone else's words. I think both can be equally damaging.


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## the wife1962 (Mar 9, 2016)

I feel it is the lying and sneaking around, showing blatant dis-respect for the BS, that really causes deep damage. 
Why are so many afraid of speaking the truth? 
If it is "just friends"..i.e. platonic m/f friendship..then there is NO reason to delete texts, omit pertinent information, and lie about where abouts. 
If the WS is already deleting and hiding and omitting, then they need to acknowledge and admit- to themselves mostly- that they have now crossed the line. Come clean. Or deal with the results.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

New_Beginnings said:


> I agree with your bold statements, at least pertaining to my marriage. My husband only came clean, when I shared my wrongs. (We weren't married when we cheated).
> 
> We both lacked respect for one another before our first born. We both were selfish and didn't have eachothers best interest at heart. We lived for self, in a toxic relationship. That slowly changed once I had our daughter.
> 
> ...


I think total transparency in marriage is best, even if it hurts. Transparency allows us to see the root of problems, and it builds trust.

Are you in a position to be financially independent if you two break up? Can you provide for any children you two have, on your own, if necessary?


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

EllisRedding said:


> I was thinking about this, and although I understand an EA can be equally as damaging as a PA, to an extend you could argue an EA may not completely be a choice, or maybe better put, pursuing an EA is a choice, but developing feelings for someone can be hard to control. With a PA, it is 100% choice, no one forces you to get nekked and bump uglies.


*I feel that one's willful pursuit of an EA can be just as damaging as a PA. But while that same person is being pursued in the EA market, then I can see your point! At least to a degree!

But notwithstanding, even in that given scenario, one should have the common sense and decency to see it coming and to graciously and faithfully back away!

Unless their selfish, self-centered  modus operandi is to get their ashes covertly hauled within the sanctity of their spouse never finding out about it!

Too bad that they can't realize that God and fate always seem to have a nasty habit of getting in their way of keeping it a well-guarded secret!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## New_Beginnings (Nov 16, 2015)

jld said:


> New_Beginnings said:
> 
> 
> > I agree with your bold statements, at least pertaining to my marriage. My husband only came clean, when I shared my wrongs. (We weren't married when we cheated).
> ...


I have the support I need from family if need be. I do have a job that is waiting for me, when I decide its time to go back. My father is recently retired and would be willing to help with children (we have two) but I'm not at a place where I would give up on my marriage.

I've grown in many ways throughout my years with my husband. I am happy within myself and what's important to me is are my children happy. I've watched him grown immensely throughout our years of knowing one another. I do believe my marriage can and will get better, we are working on that together. He knows everything there is to know about me. If anything he was and still is my best friend. We had our issues but I believe we will strive. We've been there at the lowest points (before marriage), we are bound to succeed as long as we are working together.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

New_Beginnings said:


> I have the support I need from family if need be. I do have a job that is waiting for me, when I decide its time to go back. My father is recently retired and would be willing to help with children (we have two) but I'm not at a place where I would give up on my marriage.
> 
> I've grown in many ways throughout my years with my husband. I am happy within myself and what's important to me is are my children happy. I've watched him grown immensely throughout our years of knowing one another. I do believe my marriage can and will get better, we are working on that together. He knows everything there is to know about me. If anything he was and still is my best friend. We had our issues but I believe we will strive. We've been there at the lowest points (before marriage), we are bound to succeed as long as we are working together.


I think we grow most in marriage when we are totally honest with each other. I hope your marriage continues to be a place where you two can be completely humble with each other.

As women become more and more financially empowered, I think there will be more honesty in marriage, and more emotional growth. They will not have to fear losing their own financial support and endangering their children's means of support. A lack of fear can lead to greater authenticity.


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## New_Beginnings (Nov 16, 2015)

I finacinally supported us before the children. I supported our family when our first was born and we both contributed until a few months before my pregnancy with our son. I began to stay home and our plan was I would return to my prior job (hours worked well;his schedule vs mine) after having the baby. He ended up taking a different job with more hours and a different shift. This left my opportunity to my prior job non existent. My boss said if and when I choose to return, I have a job. I am the one who manages our bills and does the budget. I'm confident if I chose to end things that I could financially do well.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

New_Beginnings said:


> I finacinally supported us before the children. I supported our family when our first was born and we both contributed until a few months before my pregnancy with our son. I began to stay home and our plan was I would return to my prior job (hours worked well;his schedule vs mine) after having the baby. He ended up taking a different job with more hours and a different shift. This left my opportunity to my prior job non existent. My boss said if and when I choose to return, I have a job. I am the one who manages our bills and does the budget. I'm confident if I chose to end things that I could financially do well.


Good. Then you and the kids will be fine.


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## New_Beginnings (Nov 16, 2015)

jld said:


> New_Beginnings said:
> 
> 
> > I finacinally supported us before the children. I supported our family when our first was born and we both contributed until a few months before my pregnancy with our son. I began to stay home and our plan was I would return to my prior job (hours worked well;his schedule vs mine) after having the baby. He ended up taking a different job with more hours and a different shift. This left my opportunity to my prior job non existent. My boss said if and when I choose to return, I have a job. I am the one who manages our bills and does the budget. I'm confident if I chose to end things that I could financially do well.
> ...


Thank you for your words.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

arbitrator said:


> *I feel that one's willful pursuit of an EA can be just as damaging as a PA. But while that same person is being pursued in the EA market, then I can see your point! At least to a degree!
> 
> But notwithstanding, even in that given scenario, one should have the common sense and decency to see it coming and to graciously and faithfully back away!
> 
> ...





New_Beginnings said:


> I believe an EA is also a choice. If you can feel what you're doing is wrong, you can choose to remove yourself from sharing anymore. You can choose to fall back to your spouse and fix what is missing, instead of finding what you're missing in someone else's words. I think both can be equally damaging.


Yeah, I think I was just looking at it that at the onset you can't always control feelings you may develop for someone (the possible beginnings of what leads to an EA). You do however *have a choice* in pursuing such feelings, and by choosing that it is no different than a PA


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

jld said:


> _*Overall, women are more likely than men to forgive a cheating spouse.*
> 
> "So one-night stands and use of prostitutes is less threatening than is a long-term, emotionally bonded extramarital relationship," Amato told LiveScience. "Wives are more likely to forgive their husbands if their husbands were not 'in love' with the other woman."
> 
> ...


I always chuckle at the warped notion that women take into account the kids with cheating and men don't. I have even had it suggested that because I divorced my X I didn't love my kids and blew up thier home because of pride. Lol my X cheated I didn't. She broke the vows and covenants of marriage, not I. I have no guilt over that and never would. I do wish I had picked a better mom for them though but guilt over processing through divorce, never. As Ellis said don't want to get divorced don't cheat. 

Adulting is hard for some.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

marduk said:


> stephscarlett said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think I've ever pictured an attractive person naked.
> ...


I just fantasize about my wife which I'm very happy with. No I do not picture CO workers naked. Both deal with lust, which is a sin unto death.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Divinely Favored said:


> *I just fantasize about my wife which I'm very happy with.* No I do not picture CO workers naked. Both deal with lust, which is a sin unto death.


That is my husband, too, DF. He does not look at porn, either.

That must be hard, to be married to someone who looks at porn. 

I also wonder if women just are not as interested in naked bodies as men? When I fantasize, it is about being treated well, not a naked body.

Anyway, back to the importance of honesty in marriage . . .


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Wolf1974 said:


> I always chuckle at the warped notion that women take into account the kids with cheating and men don't. I have even had it suggested that because I divorced my X I didn't love my kids and blew up thier home because of pride. Lol my X cheated I didn't. She broke the vows and covenants of marriage, not I. I have no guilt over that and never would. I do wish I had picked a better mom for them though but guilt over processing through divorce, never. As Ellis said don't want to get divorced don't cheat.
> 
> Adulting is hard for some.


It is nauseating to hear the whole "you should work on reconciliation when you are cheated on, do it for your family" nonsense. All I hear are excuses and blame shifting. How about the idea that pursuing a divorce after you have been cheated on is in fact best for the family???

In my case, if I was cheated on the moment I found out I would have the divorce lawyer already working. It has nothing to do with ego or pride, it is something sacred I believe in within the confines of marriage, and should not be broken. I could never respect my wife, would never touch her or be physical again. That is not the type of environment that is positive for children to grow up in.


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

EllisRedding said:


> It is nauseating to hear the whole "you should work on reconciliation when you are cheated on, do it for your family" nonsense. All I hear are excuses and blame shifting. How about the idea that pursuing a divorce after you have been cheated on is in fact best for the family???
> 
> In my case, if I was cheated on the moment I found out I would have the divorce lawyer already working. It has nothing to do with ego or pride, it is something sacred I believe in within the confines of marriage, and should not be broken. I could never respect my wife, would never touch her or be physical again. That is not the type of environment that is positive for children to grow up in.


When I see people who accuse the BH of not caring about their family or being more concerned with their pride and ego than their kids, it just confounds me. I've always viewed it intricately as being a matter of integrity and trust. Someone whom you entrusted your future has completely and utterly violated that trust and broken their solemn vow. If the BS sees no pathway to return to that level of trust, it is completely understandable that they would file for Divorce.

Moreover, the comments about "for the children" are completely without merit. As a matter of integrity, it is an act of good parenting to set an example for your children of how a man should behave, and what behaviors he should tolerate and not tolerate in those he surrounds himself with.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

Kivlor said:


> EllisRedding said:
> 
> 
> > It is nauseating to hear the whole "you should work on reconciliation when you are cheated on, do it for your family" nonsense. All I hear are excuses and blame shifting. How about the idea that pursuing a divorce after you have been cheated on is in fact best for the family???
> ...


What about teaching your children about forgiveness and how to overcome obstacles in life?


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

MAJDEATH said:


> What about teaching your children about forgiveness and how to overcome obstacles in life?


How can you forgive what you don't know about?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

MAJDEATH said:


> What about teaching your children about forgiveness and how to overcome obstacles in life?


I have taught my sons those values.

I also taught them never to tolerate abuse, especially cheating.

Forgiving someone doesn't mean staying married to them and overcoming infidelity is hard during a divorce or reconciliation.

I have taught them about preemptive measures and boundaries so if cheating does occur, it will have happened with massive resistance.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

MAJDEATH said:


> What about teaching your children about forgiveness and how to overcome obstacles in life?


I disagree with the apparent premise of your post that forgiveness=reconciliation.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

jld said:


> _*Overall, women are more likely than men to forgive a cheating spouse.*
> 
> "So one-night stands and use of prostitutes is less threatening than is a long-term, emotionally bonded extramarital relationship," Amato told LiveScience. "Wives are more likely to forgive their husbands if their husbands were not 'in love' with the other woman."
> 
> ...


This is absolutely false. Very easily debunked by research and anecdotal evidence.

During nearly two decades of being immersed in marital issues, including infidelity, I have not seen this pattern play out.

I can count far more women cheating and destroying their families for nothing than men.

I can also count just as many men concerned about their families and willing to take their unfaithful wives back as betrayed women.

Their does not appear to be a noticeable gender gap here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> This is absolutely false. Very easily debunked by research and anecdotal evidence.
> 
> During nearly two decades of being immersed in marital issues, including infidelity, I have not seen this pattern play out.
> 
> ...


Here is the link, Conan:

Surviving Infidelity: What Wives Do When Men Cheat


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

jld said:


> Here is the link, Conan:
> 
> Surviving Infidelity: What Wives Do When Men Cheat


jld. Reality isn't found in internet links.

I can post link after link of contradictory conclusions on the same subject all day long and provide a better argument for both sides than you could argue one.

I can provide you with links that say your marriage is inferior because you don't swing.

I would say the actual evidence of your marriage is that it works for you and others.

You might want to try employing different methods of research and dialogue.

Finding links to support your POV and posting them is mentally lazy and I don't find it stimulating.

I have seen just as many, if not more, men choose to reconcile with a WW as women in the same position.

It absolutely goes with another point you have made that women are more independent and have more options about remaining in a marriage.

This argument you are trying to make directly contradicts your other point.

I agree with your other point about more women leaving do to having choices.

I also agree that it will require more transparency for a marriage to succeed. I disagree that it will only be men that need to be more honest.

Women have proven to be fantastic liars throughout history.

Not a slam on women. Just pointing out that not all deception is male based.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

ConanHub said:


> jld. Reality isn't found in internet links.
> 
> I can post link after link of contradictory conclusions on the same subject all day long and provide a better argument for both sides than you could argue one.
> 
> ...


Keep slamming your head into that brick wall Conan. 

She has no desire to contemplate things that run contrary to her core beliefs. One of which is that women are never wrong unless a man drove her to it. Another is that men who feel pain or anger are faulty human beings. 

Once you arrive at that conclusion, you can pretty much write her posts for her.

But then you're just talking to yourself. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

MAJDEATH said:


> What about teaching your children about forgiveness and how to overcome obstacles in life?


By teaching them to have standards, to set boundaries and to enforce those boundaries, you are teaching your children to overcome obstacles in their life. To not do so it to fail to set them up with the tools to overcome the obstacles they will face.

Burying your head in the sand is not overcoming an obstacle. It's pretending it doesn't exist.

Forgiveness is a choice that doesn't require R. It is completely compatible with D.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

MAJDEATH said:


> What about teaching your children about forgiveness and how to overcome obstacles in life?


I see teaching the lessons of consequences of greater importance than forgiveness. After all in my case forgiveness was never asked for and never given. Ultimately it will be up to my children to decide if they forgive their mother or not when I tell them the truth. My job as a parent is to get them ready for the real world and doing something horrible generally comes with real consequences.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> Wolf1974 said:
> 
> 
> > I always chuckle at the warped notion that women take into account the kids with cheating and men don't. I have even had it suggested that because I divorced my X I didn't love my kids and blew up thier home because of pride. Lol my X cheated I didn't. She broke the vows and covenants of marriage, not I. I have no guilt over that and never would. I do wish I had picked a better mom for them though but guilt over processing through divorce, never. As Ellis said don't want to get divorced don't cheat.
> ...


The above says it for me. 

I am one who believes in soul mates. My wife and my thought patterns are so synched you would think we were twins. We can speak each other's thoughts about certain situations that occur. 

If my wife committed such a transgression it would end our marriage for the same as Ellis said. I would have confirmation she was not my "soul mate" or the kind of person i thought shr was and I committed a devastating error in judgement by marrying her. I could forgive her but the trust and marriage would be over, no MC, just D.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> You might want to try employing different methods of research and dialogue.


I am open to hearing them.



> It absolutely goes with another point you have made that women are more independent and have more options about remaining in a marriage.


Women are getting there. I don't think we are there yet, though.



> This argument you are trying to make directly contradicts your other point.


I did not write the article. The infidelity expert did.



> I agree with your other point about more women leaving do to having choices.
> 
> I also agree that it will require more transparency for a marriage to succeed. I disagree that it will only be men that need to be more honest.


Never said it was only men, Conan. I think both sexes often fail to be transparent in marriage. I think transparency is critical for a healthy, emotionally deep and stimulating marriage.

How to encourage that transparency might make for an interesting thread . . .


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

To expound on my last post, let's do a little mental exercise:

A married couple with kids. W has a gambling problem. Hides it from H. Lies about why money is missing. Lies and lies and lies. Spends them to the brink of bankruptcy, and continues to hide it. H eventually finds out because the debt collectors are knocking. Is the H teaching his children "to overcome obstacles" by remaining married to his W? Is he teaching them "forgiveness" by stoically remaining married? 

Another married couple with kids. H has anger issues. Slaps W around regularly--just bruises, no major damage. Wife finally files D. Is she not teaching her children to overcome obstacles by filing D? Shouldn't she just stay in the marriage and teach the kids "forgiveness"?

M is a covenant. You agree to certain behaviors. You agree to never engage in certain other behaviors. When one party violates the covenants of the marriage, the other has the right (ethical right, moral if you prefer, not just legal) to exit the agreement. It would be agreeing to be abused to stay, when the violating party has made it clear they are not going to keep their word, and yet they expect you to abide by yours.


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## rrrbbbttt (Apr 6, 2011)

Wolf1974 great comment.

Too many Participation Trophys be given today and not preparing the next generation for the Real Facts of Life.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

New_Beginnings said:


> The only one a cheater is protecting is their self. If they have no plans on leaving they don't want the possibility of being rejected and left by their spouse. They see being truthful about their act can bring more damage to the marriage.


Hence I and others got the standard scripted line "I didn't want to hurt your" - so I LIED?!!

ugh... bringing up bad memories.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

jld said:


> Women are getting there. I don't think we are there yet, though.


This is BS. People are people. There are good people. There are less good people. I really think the bottom line issue is that too few people think about integrity. It's all about nuuuub. A woman who cheats is a person without integrity. A man who cheats is a person without integrity. Many of us women are perfectly strong and capable to take care of our own selves.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> This is BS. People are people. There are good people. There are less good people. I really think the bottom line issue is that too few people think about integrity. It's all about nuuuub. A woman who cheats is a person without integrity. A man who cheats is a person without integrity. Many of us women are perfectly strong and capable to take care of our own selves.


The line refers to women's economic status, NS. Women are increasingly financially empowered, but not quite as much as men, at least according to what I have read.

That is changing, though. Women may overtake men in earnings in the near future. I think in Britain, under 30 women have financially overtaken men, if what I remember hearing is accurate.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

jld said:


> The line refers to women's economic status, NS. Women are increasingly financially empowered, but not quite as much as men, at least according to what I have read.



It is a bogus argument when it comes to marriage. Women now have the OPPORTUNITY to work. If they don't choose to do so, then they can't whine about their economic status.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Kivlor said:


> To expound on my last post, let's do a little mental exercise:
> 
> A married couple with kids. W has a gambling problem. Hides it from H. Lies about why money is missing. Lies and lies and lies. Spends them to the brink of bankruptcy, and continues to hide it. H eventually finds out because the debt collectors are knocking. Is the H teaching his children "to overcome obstacles" by remaining married to his W? Is he teaching them "forgiveness" by stoically remaining married?


See, you have it all wrong.

If the man was being a 'superior man' he would have simultaneously made so much money that she literally couldn't spend it all, plus 'inspired' enough transparency and trust in his wife that she never would have kept it from him.

And he would have already forgiven her, while stuffing her pockets with cash and sent her back to the gambling tables with forgiveness and compassion so she can continue her habit.

While he watches the kids, of course.

/ I just threw up in my mouth a little.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> It is a bogus argument when it comes to marriage. Women now have the OPPORTUNITY to work. If they don't choose to do so, then they can't whine about their economic status.


I don't think they are whining, NS. But when a woman realizes her husband is cheating, her ability to provide financially for her children may influence her course of action.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

jld said:


> I don't think they are whining, NS. But when a woman realizes her husband is cheating, her ability to provide financially for her children may influence her *immediate*course of action.


Here. I fixed that for you.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Divinely Favored said:


> The above says it for me.
> 
> I am one who believes in soul mates. My wife and my thought patterns are so synched you would think we were twins. We can speak each other's thoughts about certain situations that occur.
> 
> If my wife committed such a transgression it would end our marriage for the same as Ellis said. I would have confirmation she was not my "soul mate" or the kind of person i thought shr was and I committed a devastating error in judgement by marrying her. I could forgive her but the trust and marriage would be over, no MC, just D.


Great minds think alike . I think the point for me as well, if a BS wants to go the reconciliation route I have zero issue with that, I am not looking down on anyone who does. The reality though, this does not apply to everyone. I have seen several posts on TAM where it is stated a BS should always consider R as an option (you know, look at yourself to figure out what you did wrong to cause a WW and fix it), and if they don't they are being selfish, ego driven, don't care about their kids, etc... For that I call BS. For myself, and many others here, R will never be an option if cheated on. Just as it is ok for those who want to go the R route, it is perfectly ok for those who won't ever consider R. Who knows, maybe if cheating was less acceptable in society and fewer people were willing to even consider R, cheating might actually go down (nothing to support this, just a random thought in my head).


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

Its a simple thing: All human beings have the ability (and do) lie. It just depends on what kind of lies. "no honey, you're butt doesn't look bigger" is a nice lie.

We also ALL have the ability to cheat, no matter what background. There are many variables for cause. Most of them, not good.

But if I may inject. Lets steer this thread back over back to *"Why truth of cheating is better than not being told"*.

Truth creates trust. And we really need to trust our SO.


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> Great minds think alike . I think the point for me as well, if a BS wants to go the reconciliation route I have zero issue with that, I am not looking down on anyone who does. The reality though, this does not apply to everyone. I have seen several posts on TAM where it is stated a BS should always consider R as an option (you know, look at yourself to figure out what you did wrong to cause a WW and fix it), and if they don't they are being selfish, ego driven, don't care about their kids, etc... For that I call BS. For myself, and many others here, R will never be an option if cheated on. Just as it is ok for those who want to go the R route, it is perfectly ok for those who won't ever consider R. Who knows, maybe if cheating was less acceptable in society and fewer people were willing to even consider R, cheating might actually go down (nothing to support this, just a random thought in my head).


Prob is most people think like this about being cheated on (self included) but when you actually experience it you might make a different decision. Yes there will be those that will just never consider R due to tolerance levels, etc, but I have seen substantially more of those that change their minds than those that remain in the D path when it actually happens to them. When you factor in kids, living and finances there is a lot on the table not to make anyone think twice IMHO. 
What I think should happen is mandatory prenuptial agreements in place, that I think would deter a lot of infidelity, because as of now the system completely ignores fidelity and that's just wrong.


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

marduk said:


> See, you have it all wrong.
> 
> If the man was being a 'superior man' he would have simultaneously made so much money that she literally couldn't spend it all, plus 'inspired' enough transparency and trust in his wife that she never would have kept it from him.
> 
> ...


You forgot the part about how a man who doesn't do those things, and who communicates to his wife that he won't tolerate such behaviors is actually a submissive husband. 

A dominant H would make her feel comfortable betting the family fortune on red 21, and exert his dominance by showing that no bad behavior on her part will elicit an emotional response from him.

It really was hard to read that without getting sick Marduk...


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Kivlor said:


> You forgot the part about how a man who doesn't do those things, and who communicates to his wife that he won't tolerate such behaviors is actually a submissive husband.
> 
> A dominant H would make her feel comfortable betting the family fortune on red 21, and exert his dominance by showing that no bad behavior on her part will elicit an emotional response from him.
> 
> It really was hard to read that without getting sick Marduk...


I also forgot the part where if he was a good husband, she wouldn't have a gambling problem to begin with.

Regardless of if it started before they met or not.


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## blahfridge (Dec 6, 2014)

I think it also comes down to what an individual perceives to be their or their spouse's capacity to handle the truth. I grew up in a household where everyone protected my mother from the truth. Any problems we had, we knew to keep them from her. So, when my H first confessed to an affair, my immediate reaction was to shut down the conversation. He, of course, was relieved because it meant he didn't have to tell me about the other affairs. I remember like it was yesterday, it's now been 8 years, when he first told me about the OW. I said I couldn't handle it and we never talked about it again until my own EA blew everything up. But, in the meantime I quietly suffered. 

Through intensive therapy I am only now coming to grips with why I made the choices I made, including the self-destructive path of trying to push the affairs out of my mind by not demanding the truth. If you don't know the truth of your life, it eventually eats you up from the inside out. You have to come to terms with it both as a WS and a BS, cause the truth is the only way to set yourself free.


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## LadyJayne (Mar 23, 2016)

There's actually two sides to consider here. For both the spouse who cheated and the spouse who was cheated on. I have been on both sides of this situation, and married for 30 years. Let me share some insight. First of all, if you were the cheating one, the real question is this: Are you sorry and willing to admit, confess and be accountable for this betrayal? With confession come accountability, and also changing behaviors so that openly discussions and hurts can be addressed. Also there is the invisibility one must be willing to lift. A complete change about, understanding, and acknowledgement of fears, hurt and deception caused by ones owns actions. This is difficult and hard but must be done in order to resolve, and regain trust of your spouse. 
Now if one spouse has cheated, refuses to acknowledge, change and own up to his betrayal, then secretly they are allowing that back door to hide their actions and providing a way out of accepting their part . It also steals from their spouse the chance to forgive, discuss their own hurt and prevents them from being able to have closure so that forgiveness and reconciliation can occur if possible. As long as one spouse continue lieing, deceiving and hiding his own actions, there can be no together as one, it hijacks the couple and causes separation. Keeping a spouse protected, as it was said, is cowardly, selfish, and only allows one to continue in deceiving them and it prevents them from being accountable . If they love you, and willing to forgive you, and your willing to change and do your part in restoring the relationship, than honesty is the only way, otherwise, you will be preventing your spouse from understanding, and forgiveness and also will continue to allow them to feel as if it's their fault for failure instead of your own for abandoning your spouse
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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