# Remorse ... when is it coming?!



## adegirl2016 (Dec 14, 2016)

So we have started seeing a therapist again over the last few weeks.

Many of you know my husband cheated on me with a really young female coworker 14 months ago. He has done some repair work. He has made some changes. But I do not feel that he has come to the remorseful part yet. Our therapist met with me alone last week and came to the conclusion that I am not healed yet because he is not remorseful yet. 

Did this day ever come for you guys? Is there anything I can do to help bring these feelings out in him? I realize I can’t make him be remorseful but is there anything I can do to get us there. 

We see our therapist again tomorrow. I’m not sure what her plan is now that she “realizes” this fact. Guess we’ll see!


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Could it be that he isn't remorseful? How did the affair come to light? Did you find out or did he tell you? Who ended it?


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## SoFlaGuy (Nov 28, 2014)

I never cheated on my wife but I wasn't always a good person in my younger days and I do feel bad for the pain I caused previous GF's with my behavior. At the time, no, I didn't feel remorse, I was too self absorbed then. So it depends on the individual's state of mind.


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## adegirl2016 (Dec 14, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> Could it be that he isn't remorseful? How did the affair come to light? Did you find out or did he tell you? Who ended it?


It definitely could be that he just isn’t. I found out about the affair by reading his text messages. He ended the affair. But I’m sure it’s only because I found out. 


Our therapist thinks he has made some heart changes, but not enough. I can say he is a better father and he helps more around the house. But those are all things he should have been doing anyway.


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## NickyT (Aug 14, 2017)

My question to you is: what would remorse look like? You need to ensure that his remorse is not looking like something different than what you are expecting. Are you looking for certain words, tears, etc? Make the distinction between "showing signs" of remorse and being remorseful. It sounds like you need something specific from him. 

IMO, that marriage counselor should not be taking your money if both partners are not remorseful for the affair and their contribution to the circumstances that led to the affair. He should not be playing marriage with you if he is not remorseful and you should not be letting him. Still, you are in counseling, so

If your husband knows

- how you felt physically and emotionally when you found out
- how often thoughts of the affair enter your mind
- how thoughts of the affair affect you and how you behave
- the level of damage the affair did to the trust you have in him

and he does not show signs of being remorseful and a third party (the therapist) does not think he is remorseful, then he probably does not get it. If he is not remorseful, then he either does not understand the devastation or he does not care.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

adegirl2016 said:


> So we have started seeing a therapist again over the last few weeks.
> 
> Many of you know my husband cheated on me with a really young female coworker 14 months ago. He has done some repair work. He has made some changes. But I do not feel that he has come to the remorseful part yet. Our therapist met with me alone last week and came to the conclusion that I am not healed yet because he is not remorseful yet.
> 
> ...



An apology and remorse would be nice and you are certainly due one. Is it mandatory to begin recovery, not really. It is necessary to complete recovery, you betcha. 

My wife wasn't really all that sorry or remorseful until she fell in love with me again. Then she was SUPER over the top sorry. More sorry than I wanted or needed. 

Any "sorry" or "remorse" you get now is just platitudes. Work on recovery. You said the OW was a co-worker - do they still work together???? If so, that is by far a more pressing problem today than him acting remorseful.


Here's a good article|answer to a letter about remorse and recovery. 

COPING WITH INFIDELITY PART 3: RESTORING THE MARITAL RELATIONSHIP.


In general, wayward men tend to become remorseful much faster because they typically don't blame their wives for their affairs {they were just getting some extra sex on the side that no one was supposed to know about and they still love their wife and family} whereas getting a wayward wife to be remorseful takes longer because she'll, more often than not, blame her husband for undertaking the affair in the first place {if he were doing his job, she feels she never would have looked elsewhere to begin with}. Hopefully your husband will become remorseful sooner than later but let it be real and organic versus contrived and forced by you and|or your therapist.


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## SentHereForAReason (Oct 25, 2017)

Quality said:


> An apology and remorse would be nice and you are certainly due one. Is it mandatory to begin recovery, not really. It is necessary to complete recovery, you betcha.
> 
> My wife wasn't really all that sorry or remorseful until she fell in love with me again. Then she was SUPER over the top sorry. More sorry than I wanted or needed.
> 
> ...


Ain't this the truth! And it seems in a high percentage of these not only do they not show remorse or blame the husband but the marriage history gets re-written and they go from wayward wives to wayward/walk away wives like in my case.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

adegirl2016 said:


> So we have started seeing a therapist again over the last few weeks.
> 
> Many of you know my husband cheated on me with a really young female coworker 14 months ago. He has done some repair work. He has made some changes. But I do not feel that he has come to the remorseful part yet. Our therapist met with me alone last week and came to the conclusion that I am not healed yet because he is not remorseful yet.
> 
> ...


Is he still working with her?


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

The reality is that he may never feel remorse. He may feel guilty he got caught and you were hurt, but that's not the same thing as remorse.

Question is, do you think you can continue in the marriage if remorse never comes?


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## adegirl2016 (Dec 14, 2016)

He says sorry and everything. Says it won’t happen again, it was a mistake, etc. 

I guess I was looking for the “wow im so glad you decided to stay with me” random “I’m sorry I hurt you like I did” “I can’t believe I did that to you” 

I want to have no reason to believe he doesn’t love me now. Sometimes we’ll go days without sex... sometimes over a week... and my mind gets to a bad place of wondering why he is not pursuing me. Maybe it’s bc I’m 8 months pregnant. Maybe he’s cheating again. He cheated last time I was pregnant. If he knows I’m insecure about the pregnancy and the way I look, why not say “you look beautiful carrying our baby” exc. 
why is it so hard.... I just need reminders and reassurance.


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## adegirl2016 (Dec 14, 2016)

GusPolinski said:


> adegirl2016 said:
> 
> 
> > So we have started seeing a therapist again over the last few weeks.
> ...


No he quit that job about a month after it happened.


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## adegirl2016 (Dec 14, 2016)

Quality said:


> adegirl2016 said:
> 
> 
> > So we have started seeing a therapist again over the last few weeks.
> ...


What made her fall in love again? 

What did you do?

I guess I’m wondering if maybe he sees me moving forward instead of being so focused on HIS recovery instead of mine maybe he would get it.


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## Rhubarb (Dec 1, 2017)

adegirl2016 said:


> Did this day ever come for you guys? Is there anything I can do to help bring these feelings out in him?


Yes, send him packing.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

adegirl2016 said:


> He says sorry and everything. Says it won’t happen again, it was a mistake, etc.
> 
> I guess I was looking for the “wow im so glad you decided to stay with me” random “I’m sorry I hurt you like I did” “I can’t believe I did that to you”
> 
> ...


He cheated last time you were pregnant? How many times has he cheated? Multiple affair partners or was it the same girl?

I'm so sorry.


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## adegirl2016 (Dec 14, 2016)

Quality said:


> adegirl2016 said:
> 
> 
> > He says sorry and everything. Says it won’t happen again, it was a mistake, etc.
> ...


An EA in summer of 2014 and physical affair winter of 2016 DAYS before our little girl was due. 

At the time of the EA, I didn’t know such a term existed and thought that bc I couldn’t prove if it was physical that I shouldn’t leave.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

Quality said:


> In general, wayward men tend to become remorseful much faster because they typically don't blame their wives for their affairs {they were just getting some extra sex on the side that no one was supposed to know about and they still love their wife and family} whereas getting a wayward wife to be remorseful takes longer because she'll, more often than not, blame her husband for undertaking the affair in the first place {if he were doing his job, she feels she never would have looked elsewhere to begin with}. Hopefully your husband will become remorseful sooner than later but let it be real and organic versus contrived and forced by you and|or your therapist.


QFT! As a formerly BH, I never received that watershed moment of remorse for what she had done to the marriage or to me. I know she regretted what had happened but never totally accepted that the affair was her fault not mine. Now, nearly 11 years post D-Day the marriage is in very good shape but I have never had full closure on the whole mess. Rug sweeping can't change that. Does it keep me up at night? Nope. But it doesn't make me sleep any easier either.

OP, for your own state of mind down the road, he must recognize what he did and understand how deeply it hurt for you both to fully put it behind you and move on. Doing more dishes or playing with the kids ain't **** as far a penance goes. He needs to know the pain.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

adegirl2016 said:


> It definitely could be that he just isn’t. I found out about the affair by reading his text messages. He ended the affair. But I’m sure it’s only because I found out.
> 
> 
> Our therapist thinks he has made some heart changes, but not enough. I can say he is a better father and he helps more around the house. But those are all things he should have been doing anyway.


OK so its more likely that he is sorry because he got caught. A person who is truly remorseful would stop the affair and come clean about it. 
When you think about it he hasn't had to face any serious consequences for his actions which may not help him to see the devastation he caused. He wasn't at risk of you leaving and he hasn't lost his children, so for him he maybe doesn't realise just how serious adultery is. 
Maybe if you had told him to leave and made it clear that you may not have him back, he would have been shocked into realising what he nearly lost.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

adegirl2016 said:


> He says sorry and everything. Says it won’t happen again, it was a mistake, etc.
> 
> I guess I was looking for the “wow im so glad you decided to stay with me” random “I’m sorry I hurt you like I did” “I can’t believe I did that to you”
> 
> ...


Calling what he did a 'mistake' shows that he hasn't a clue about the seriousness of what he did. It wasn't a mistake, it was a clear decision that he made to have sex with another woman.


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## adegirl2016 (Dec 14, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> adegirl2016 said:
> 
> 
> > He says sorry and everything. Says it won’t happen again, it was a mistake, etc.
> ...


What would someone say instead? Is it possible he just has no clue what to say?


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## adegirl2016 (Dec 14, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> adegirl2016 said:
> 
> 
> > It definitely could be that he just isn’t. I found out about the affair by reading his text messages. He ended the affair. But I’m sure it’s only because I found out.
> ...


Is there anyway to come back from this at this point? Do 180s work in these situations? Again, I am wishing/hoping he would come to a place of remorse and we can move forward.

Maybe the therapist feels she owes it to us to try, given that we are paying her and have both said we are committed to counseling. She says she knows he doesn’t understand the impact of his affair - I’m just not sure yet how she plans on approaching that. It’s been two sessions and she is still going through our back grounds and figuring out past relationships and our parents marriages, childhoods, etc.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

adegirl2016 said:


> An EA in summer of 2014 and physical affair winter of 2016 DAYS before our little girl was due.
> 
> At the time of the EA, I didn’t know such a term existed and thought that bc I couldn’t prove if it was physical that I shouldn’t leave.


Any “man” that cheats on his pregnant wife or girlfriend is nothing but a piece of garbage and he should be thrown out with the other garbage and then taken for every cent that he has.
You wrote recently that he wanted to go out bowling and drinking despite you being seven months pregnant,he is also back smoking pot despite blaming that for his cheating.When will you understand that he doesn’t care a damn about you and will continue on his merry way until you actually do something constructive as in serve him with divorce papers or at least throw him out.Remember you caught him in all of his transgressions,he never owned up to anything voluntarily.
Do you want to be back here next year telling the same story except pregnant with another baby?


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## username77 (Dec 27, 2017)

I think the vast majority of cheaters are never really remorseful. They rationalize it in their brains that they were justified to do it. It was you who pushed them to it. They can't really be remorseful because that entails accountability. How could you be accountable for hurting someone like that? It's much easier to just put the blame on the offended spouse and feign remorse in order to get on with it, and not lose your kids, house, whatever.

He hasn't shown remorse because he's not sorry he did it. Annoyed he got caught, but not sorry for the affair.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

adegirl2016 said:


> At the time of the EA, I didn’t know such a term existed and thought that bc I couldn’t prove if it was physical that I shouldn’t leave.


It was physical. Of course it was. He's the type who'll take any opportunity he can get and he has NO problem stepping over the line. He's sunk to an all-time low TWICE now, acting like a dog in heat while you were carrying his children. I'm sorry, but he's just disgusting.



adegirl2016 said:


> He says sorry and everything. Says it won’t happen again, it was a mistake, etc.


Pffft. They all say that. Truth is, what else CAN he say? "I'm not sorry, I had a blast, too damned bad if you don't like it and I'm more than likely going to do it again once I'm out of your cross-hairs." They all say that empty bull-crap when they're caught.

*NOW* I understand the lack of remorse. He's a serial cheater.

And since this one is a serial cheater, you'll continue to hear those empty promises every time you catch him.

And you WILL catch him again. 

So are you planning to enter into yet _*another*_ false 'reconciliation' with this remorseless serial cheater? 

Think *real *long and *real* hard because this will NOT be your last D-Day. :frown2:


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

adegirl2016 said:


> Did this day ever come for you guys? Is there anything I can do to help bring these feelings out in him? I realize I can’t make him be remorseful but is there anything I can do to get us there.


Erm no...


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

adegirl2016 said:


> What would someone say instead? Is it possible he just has no clue what to say?


Admit to what he did, admit how serious it was, and take full responsibility.


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## adegirl2016 (Dec 14, 2016)

Andy1001 said:


> adegirl2016 said:
> 
> 
> > An EA in summer of 2014 and physical affair winter of 2016 DAYS before our little girl was due.
> ...


I agree - It’s pretty low to cheat on the woman carrying your child.

I guess my only argument is he didn’t end up going bowling, and hasnt complained about it at all. He asked for my opinion and accepted it.

Also- no more babies. We are both getting fixed. But yes my heart and well being are still on the line if he does this again.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> Admit to what he did, admit how serious it was, and take full responsibility.


Again...that would be great if he rolled around in agony and washed your feet with his tears but she's a year out from Dday and about to have her|their 3rd child {with all being under the age of 6}. What's the point of trying to draw that kind of ownership and understanding out of him at this point? More "talking about it" is just added misery. 

What her husband and most former wayward husbands want {except the ones dead set on continuing to cheat} is a way OUT of the doghouse and a way to FIX IT that doesn't involve endless emotionally gruesome and complex and very dangerous {my wife will probably cry} conversations about the before, during and after the affair.

Well then how do you "FIX IT", you ask?

By learning, adapting, practicing and implementing a plan to make your marriage great.

Use the marriage counselor as much as you can but with 3 babies at home and jobs you're going to need a lot more dedication to learning and practicing the skills to make your marriage great that I suggest you try to get your husband reading and learning all the materials on marriagebuilders.com. Maybe send him a link to this article: 

ROMANTIC LOVE: IS IT A REALISTIC GOAL FOR MARRIAGE THERAPY?

along a link to this article:

HOW TO MAKE YOUR WIFE HAPPY.


Try to engage him in conversation about this and SUGGEST this might be an answer for the two of you. I mean, if you aren't happy, surely he isn't either with the current situation where he remains the dog that cheated and you are left feeling uncherished and having to keep an ever watchful eye over him. Instead, why not try to undertake learning and implementing new relationship skills and how to make your marriage great TOGETHER. 

Most people just want to be happy. Your husband's affair wasn't something he did "at you" so to speak. He destroyed himself and his own character. Adultery is an indication of a pretty broken person and he's YOUR husband and the father of your 3 babies so if he's fixable, he's going to need your help and dedication. He's NOT an animal that needs to be broken and domesticated --- he's your partner and if TOGETHER he and you can actually rebuild your marriage, learn and implement MUTUAL boundaries and MUTUAL accountability {so neither of are tempted to cheat} and make your relationship one in which you both are happy and proud of, THEN he'll turn to you one day and put his arms around you and tell you sincerely that he's so glad you gave him another chance and so very sorry for the pain and hurt he caused in December 2016 AND MEAN IT. And, because you are in love with him too, you'll accept his embrace and apology without hesitation and tell him how proud you are of the man, father and husband he's become. THAT's how you make it to your 50 year anniversary and you both look back proudly at how you took what Satan meant for evil and made it something good. 


OR NOT.....if he won't undertake a plan to save your marriage and family then what's the point? Maybe he's incapable of growing up. You two can just coast along holding onto and building resentments against one another until the day you cheat {betrayed wife that's feeling uncherished and bogged down with 3 babies is a very vulnerable time for young women} or he cheats again. If he refuses to work with you on a reasonable plan to FIX IT - maybe you consider doing something like this - WHEN TO CALL IT QUITS


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

adegirl2016 said:


> He says sorry and everything. Says it won’t happen again, it was a mistake, etc.
> 
> I guess I was looking for the “wow im so glad you decided to stay with me” random “I’m sorry I hurt you like I did” “I can’t believe I did that to you”
> 
> ...


While what I am about to say has no bearing on him being remorseful...which the jerk should be...and further more I will say for the umpteenth time that you are better off without him...

With all of that said, the above quoted paragraph says more about you than it does about him. You would not need him to say it to you nearly as much if your internal dialogue was not telling you otherwise. 

Why do you not believe you are amazing?


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

Is it worth it yet?


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## adegirl2016 (Dec 14, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> adegirl2016 said:
> 
> 
> > He says sorry and everything. Says it won’t happen again, it was a mistake, etc.
> ...


Because I have been told and shown otherwise for over 5 years.
I generally do not feel bad about myself, just bad that my husband obviously sees me in such a way.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

adegirl2016 said:


> Because I have been told and shown otherwise for over 5 years.
> I generally do not feel bad about myself, just bad that my husband obviously sees me in such a way.


He either doesn’t understand how much he hurt you or doesn’t care.
Either way until he changes, you will never get true remorse.
Is he still smoking pot?


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

adegirl2016 said:


> Because I have been told and shown otherwise for over 5 years.
> I generally do not feel bad about myself, just bad that my husband obviously sees me in such a way.


Why stay with someone like him?


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## Rhubarb (Dec 1, 2017)

Bottom line is you are letting him treat you poorly, and so he will continue to do so. There are people that tend to have a guilty conscious when they wrong someone. Others, like your husband ..... not so much. You really need to get angry and throw stuff... OK maybe not throw stuff but you get the idea. He simply isn't going to respond to the BS counseling you are going though. It's just a process to him so he doesn't have to get kicked out and thereby disrupt his life. If the situation was otherwise and he was truly sorry, you would at least feel it. If you want to see remorse, hand him divorce papers. But even then it will only be remorse because his life has just taken a turn for the worse. It wont be remorse for wronging you. As it stand he is likely to cheat on you again because there is no real downside for him.


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## adegirl2016 (Dec 14, 2016)

Andy1001 said:


> adegirl2016 said:
> 
> 
> > Because I have been told and shown otherwise for over 5 years.
> ...


He doesn’t smoke on a regular basis anymore but has done it twice that I know of since he “quit” in the last year. He used to smoke outside of our home. It was so sketchy. Now I never see it or smell it.


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## adegirl2016 (Dec 14, 2016)

Rhubarb said:


> Bottom line is you are letting him treat you poorly, and so he will continue to do so. There are people that tend to have a guilty conscious when they wrong someone. Others, like your husband ..... not so much. You really need to get angry and throw stuff... OK maybe not throw stuff but you get the idea. He simply isn't going to respond to the BS counseling you are going though. It's just a process to him so he doesn't have to get kicked out and thereby disrupt his life. If the situation was otherwise and he was truly sorry, you would at least feel it. If you want to see remorse, hand him divorce papers. But even then it will only be remorse because his life has just taken a turn for the worse. It wont be remorse for wronging you. As it stand he is likely to cheat on you again because there is no real downside for him.


Downsides that I know of... or that would have been for me is the disruption of our family life. Me literally mad and/or crying several times a week. The embarrassment of family and friends knowing. Me talking with an attorney. Almost losing everything. Not being trusted to go bowling with friends. Not being trusted to go anywhere for that matter. Having to sit and pay for couples counseling.
I would hve thought that is what people do. The only thing I feel I didn’t do was throw him out for more than a few days but that was bc I had a newborn at home.


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## Robbie1234 (Feb 8, 2017)

adegirl2016 said:


> Downsides that I know of... or that would have been for me is the disruption of our family life. Me literally mad and/or crying several times a week. The embarrassment of family and friends knowing. Me talking with an attorney. Almost losing everything. Not being trusted to go bowling with friends. Not being trusted to go anywhere for that matter. Having to sit and pay for couples counseling.
> I would hve thought that is what people do. The only thing I feel I didn’t do was throw him out for more than a few days but that was bc I had a newborn at home.


This is what cheaters play off, your embarrassment.


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## Rhubarb (Dec 1, 2017)

adegirl2016 said:


> for me


For you, maybe not so much for him, hence the lack of remorse....... If you have to go though a divorce things will get a lot more serious. Look around. Just about everything you read on infidelity recovery says first and foremost the betrayer has to completely own their actions. From what you have said, this isn't happening so you haven't even completed the first step.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Rhubarb said:


> For you, maybe not so much for him, hence the lack of remorse....... If you have to go though a divorce things will get a lot more serious. Look around. Just about everything you read on infidelity recovery says first and foremost the betrayer has to completely own their actions. From what you have said, this isn't happening so you haven't even completed the first step.



Firstly --- "completely owning their actions" isn't the first step to any recovery. Generally, "no contact for life" is. "owning it" isn't even a early-on requirement - lots of wayward wives recovery and never "completely" own it. Even repentance takes time and involves a process. 

Second, this wayward husband has said he's sorry and expanded upon that he just hasn't seemed sorry enough...at this time {to his very pregnant and doubly insecure betrayed wife and she's coming here to complain about it instead of talking to her husband about it. I don't think we need to be riling her up and taking her back to d-day over a year ago. 

Her husband PROBABLY thinks he has owned it and feels fortunate she didn't divorce him. He's still not good at relationships, marriage and, like many men, communication. He needs to learn to get better because he now has a {deservedly} untrusting insecure wife with 3 babies under age 6 to lead. One of his "problems" is actually a good one == his wife gets insecure and suspicious when he goes more than one week between having sex with her ~~~the solution to that - have sex weekly. 

He needs to have the situation explained to him in a different way. This isn't about his wife needing him to "completely own" anything....but rather a wife that doesn't feel cherished and loved. She doesn't trust him and until she does, he's not really "family". The time for anger and lectures is over. It's time to DO or NOT DO. These are to be productive conversations where basically she's saying "this isn't enough for me", I don't want to feel like your keeper or jailer and you don't like this much either, I'm sure, so, perhaps, WE need to figure out a way TOGETHER to make this relationship|marriage work for BOTH of us {AND OUR CHILDREN}.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

adegirl2016 said:


> Downsides that I know of... or that would have been for me is the disruption of our family life. Me literally mad and/or crying several times a week. The embarrassment of family and friends knowing. Me talking with an attorney. Almost losing everything. Not being trusted to go bowling with friends. Not being trusted to go anywhere for that matter. Having to sit and pay for couples counseling.
> I would hve thought that is what people do. The only thing I feel I didn’t do was throw him out for more than a few days but that was bc I had a newborn at home.


I've been pretty open about my first marriage, the affairs, etc. So, let me give you a bit of cheater perspective. YMMV. Your husband isn't me.

First, some nearly universal truths. 

Cheaters never "make _a_ mistake". I've had long term affairs and I have had ONS. There are about 50 moments where you know exactly what you're doing and could put a stop to it, but choose to continue. First flirty behavior? Could totally nip that in the bud. Alone in a private place feeling that attraction/sexual tension? Could have chosen to leave. Leaning in for that first kiss? Could have dodged. Clothes coming off? Could pull away, apologize, button/zip up, and nope right on out of there. Affair with more than one instance of sexual contact? A series of premeditated choices.

Also, cheaters know what they are risking. There is definitely a cost-benefit analysis done. The cheater usually bets on two things. Not getting caught and their spouse staying if they should get caught. 

Your husband bet you wouldn't find out and that, if you did, you'd stay. He was right. You said yourself that you threw him out for a couple days, but took him back because you had a newborn at home. You also said he has cheated on you every time you were pregnant and hasn't shown remorse. Why should he? He knows you aren't leaving him because of the babies, so he knows he is safe from real consequences.

Cheaters know there will be drama if they get caught. To them, the drama is worth it. It's like being a teenager and getting caught sneaking out to party with your friends. Sure, your parents are going to lay into you. Sure, they won't trust you for a while. Sure, they're going to piss and moan and ground you and take away privileges. But, damn, wasn't that party worth it!

Now, some cheater perspective.

Mad and/or Crying Several Times a Week: Cheater perspective is that this is your problem. You're the one who is hurt, angry, and every other kind of upset. The cheater is just mildly inconvenienced by having to deal with this type of display and waiting for you to eventually get over it all. Also, it's ego kibbles. Your hurt means you love him, that he is important to you. I'm not saying he didn't feel bad that you were upset. I'm saying that he likely didn't feel _that_ bad.

Embarrassment of Family and Friends Knowing: Meh. Any embarrassment is also usually accompanied by knowing you pulled one over on everybody and got away with something for X amount of time. You're more clever then they are! Also, there is a bit of "I may have done something naughty, guys, but it shows I can still pull in tail!"

Talking with an Attorney: Cheater perspective is that is was just talk. Sure, it's a bit scary for a minute when your spouse talks to a lawyer about divorce. The fear drains away real fast when it's shown to be nothing more serious than talk. And, really, if the is a divorce the cheater knows they can still pull tail, so all is not lost!

Almost Losing Everything: Again, every cheater knows there is a possibility they will be caught and the marriage will end. Every cheater decides it's worth the risk.

Not Being Trusted: Cheaters know they will be "grounded" and under scrutiny for a while, but they figure it'll be temporary and they can go back to business as usual.

Paying for and Sitting Through Counseling: Well, it's cheaper than a divorce, alimony, child support, and asset division. Besides, counseling may speed up the process of getting back to business as usual. Another temporary necessary evil.


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## Rhubarb (Dec 1, 2017)

Quality said:


> Firstly --- "completely owning their actions" isn't the first step to any recovery........


Let's just say I pretty much 100% disagree with everything you said and leave it at that.


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## adegirl2016 (Dec 14, 2016)

Quality said:


> Rhubarb said:
> 
> 
> > For you, maybe not so much for him, hence the lack of remorse....... If you have to go though a divorce things will get a lot more serious. Look around. Just about everything you read on infidelity recovery says first and foremost the betrayer has to completely own their actions. From what you have said, this isn't happening so you haven't even completed the first step.
> ...


I appreciate your perspective on this. Sometimes people are quick to assume he has never said sorry or that we don’t talk about this often. I think he is at a point where he just doesn’t KNOW what to do. That’s why we are going to counseling. To give him a chance to hear someone else say what needs to be done.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

adegirl2016 said:


> I appreciate your perspective on this. Sometimes people are quick to assume he has never said sorry or that we don’t talk about this often. I think he is at a point where he just doesn’t KNOW what to do. That’s why we are going to counseling. To give him a chance to hear someone else say what needs to be done.


I hear you pretty much indicating you remain in love with him and these complaints are more about how you feel he feels about you.

This is completely normal for a betrayed wife one year out from D-day.

It's also completely normal for an 8 month pregnant woman with two other babies at home.


Sometimes I think or fear the formality of scheduled marriage counseling can be counter-productive. Many couples leave counseling session FEELING worse than when they went in and become disillusioned because they thought marriage counseling was supposed to make things better. Couples put off discussions, conversations and conflicts while they are occurring thinking "save it for counseling" and spend their weeks building resentments and preparing for the "Battle to win over the counselor".

It's ok if you approach marriage counseling as a tool to make things better starting now and into the future but if you approach counseling as a way to rehash the past and navel gaze your lives {including your childhood wounds} then it's probably not going to be all that helpful which then just adds to your frustrations with one another {even a professional counselor can't fix 'us'}.


Tell your husband you want to be his  "Eight Cow Wife"  and, whenever he successfully does anything to make you feel cherished, take to nicknaming him "Johnny Lingo" {you, likewise, might try to start becoming your husband's cheerleader showing him respect and admiration when he does something right and building him up instead of breaking him down}.

Ultimately, if he cheats again both he and you should BOTH absolutely with 100% certainty KNOW that you'll be divorcing him. If he SAYS he'll never do it again, that's great, but what is his plan? He lacks proper boundaries around women and he needs to be aware of that and take steps to ensuring he doesn't cross those boundaries in the future {since he doesn't get another 'mistake'}. So you two develop plans and behaviors to hold each other mutually accountable for your behaviors and actions such that you both protect your marriage from outsiders because you both VALUE your marriage and family and NOT because your spouse is your 'keeper' or a "cheater' never to be trusted again.


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## LTCNurse (Feb 5, 2018)

Andy1001 said:


> Any “man” that cheats on his pregnant wife or girlfriend is nothing but a piece of garbage and he should be thrown out with the other garbage and then taken for every cent that he has.


This. And now it has been twice. I tolerated too much crap in a marriage but never had to deal with cheating. Cheating is a sure fire divorce for me and TWICE? Absolutely not. Get out as soon as you are physically able. Go to see an attorney and get that in motion. I betcha a divorce with two young children is awful scary, I know. I hope you have family to help. He is so legally screwed and deserves to lose everything.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

There are plenty of people out there that just aren’t capable of remorse. Your WH may be one of them.

Something to think about.


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## Mizzbak (Sep 10, 2016)

adegirl2016 said:


> I appreciate your perspective on this. Sometimes people are quick to assume he has never said sorry or that we don’t talk about this often. I think he is at a point where he just doesn’t KNOW what to do. That’s why we are going to counseling. To give him a chance to hear someone else say what needs to be done.


adegirl,
For me, a big part of recovery has been slowly realising that even if my husband adequately (whatever that may mean) demonstrated remorse, it wouldn't actually make me feel better. That there is nothing that he can do or say now, that can undo what he already did and said. The past exists. And I can rail at it, resent it and be threatened by it; or I can learn to accept it. But there is no potion, magically distilled from his tears of remorse, that can render it powerless. And if nothing can take away the memory of that betrayal, the pain must remain, until I have processed it. Like all grief. Like all sorrow. So, in requiring of my husband that he do something to take away those feelings, I am asking the impossible.

What he can do right now, is show his commitment to me and our family. By doing what I ask of him. Even the silly things. By making me feel safe and secure ... in the now. By holding me and listening to me when I feel that pain, and bearing witness to it. Showing me that supporting me through this is vastly more important to him than avoiding his own guilt and shame. By never using the word "mistake" about his behaviour. By accepting that I will still sometimes check his phone and laptop, even when he has been with me all day. By throwing away the small things that remind me, without question. By showing his understanding when I am sometimes sad or angry for no immediately obvious good reason ... except that we just drove past the coffee shop where they used to meet. (Or ate blueberries. Or I thought I saw her in the distance.) By opening himself up to me, as I open myself up to him. By showing that, as uncomfortable as he may find it right now, he wants be with me, and only me. 

When I said I needed more from him than he was giving, my therapist challenged me to put labels to this "more". To describe it in detail. Because it is easy to sit in resentment, wallowing in the feeling that nothing will wash away this stain. That the marriage is irreparably damaged. But IMO, the only someone who can say what he needs to do to make you feel safer and more loved ... is you.


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## adegirl2016 (Dec 14, 2016)

I don’t know exactly what will make it better. There are things he could say and do that I imagine would make it better - but if I tell him to do these things, what’s the point? I just want him to naturally feel that way about me so he does it anyway...


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## Mizzbak (Sep 10, 2016)

adegirl2016 said:


> I don’t know exactly what will make it better. There are things he could say and do that I imagine would make it better - but if I tell him to do these things, what’s the point? I just want him to naturally feel that way about me so he does it anyway...


Ahhh.. the old "you should know what I need, even if I don't" ... :smile2:

I've also played the "if he truly loved me, he'd know what I truly need" game. But I'm going to challenge you that this is based on a myth. We all want and think we need a KISA - who is so in tune with us that they somehow magically discern what we need and want (even if we don't have a handle on that ourselves). But the person on the other end of this equation isn't, and will never be, a KISA. No man is. You can require that he plays some kind of guessing game ... or maybe embarks on a Great Quest, trying to get it right, hoping to somehow stumble on the secret formula that will make it all better (or even achieve a reasonable facsimile thereof). Or you can look at and into yourself and ask "What will make me feel more loved and more cherished?" And then tell him, and let him spend the effort there instead. And even if you can't come up with an immediate answer to the question yourself, then at least you have better understanding of how difficult this is for him to try and work out. You don't need a grand gesture from him. You need the daily commitment to building and protecting your marriage. To building and protecting you. And that isn't something that loses meaning because you had to "tell" him what to do. It is something that gains meaning and strength each and every time he does it. Each and every time he just shows up. Because it is the small steps on a stony path ever up the hill that matter - not galloping in on his snowy white steed to save the day. 

I'm also going to go on and say this - inferring feelings from actions seems logical. But IMO it is dangerous. Because the gap between what he meant when he said or did something and what you hear when he says or does it can be huge. It has spawned a million comedy routines. Rather than playing a version of emotional broken-down telephone, clumsy honesty can often accomplish far more.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

As a WW..I will tell you..my bh...waited a very long time..hoping i would "get it" on my own

but once he recommended the book "how to help your spouse heal from your affair" by linda macdonald..I FINALLY understood what he was looking for

It would be so nice if a WS...knew exactly what a BS needs...but in honestly...I doubt any truly know exactly what the BS needs or is looking for

It is not a crime...to help them....and it could be the very thing that puts you both on the path to recovery


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## adegirl2016 (Dec 14, 2016)

But wouldn’t you think he would be trying? I guess that’s what I am trying to figure out. If you don’t know something - wouldn’t you ask? Especially if you are the one who stepped out? 
Again, we are going days without sex. I feel so insecure about what’s happened I don’t want to initiate at all. But why isn’t he? He is more than likely either watching porn or cheating if we are not. He’s never been the type to pursue me sexually, yet he has a high drive. That’s weird to me.
He doesn’t hug me or anything when he walks in the door after work.
There is no cuddling at night. Idk. So much intimacy is missing. I feel so hurt and mad I don’t initiate any of the intimacy... so I guess it’s half my fault. I would just think I’d you are the one who screwed up you would do anything to make me feel wanted and secure.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

adegirl2016 said:


> I would just think I’d you are the one who screwed up you would do anything to make me feel wanted and secure.


Why? Why would he expend the thought and energy required to make you feel secure when he knows you aren't going anywhere? He doesn't have to put any real effort in and he knows it.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Adegirl, you need to pay close attention to @MJJEAN. 

She has the thought process pegged.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

adegirl2016 said:


> But wouldn’t you think he would be trying? I guess that’s what I am trying to figure out. If you don’t know something - wouldn’t you ask? Especially if you are the one who stepped out?
> Again, we are going days without sex. I feel so insecure about what’s happened I don’t want to initiate at all. But why isn’t he? He is more than likely either watching porn or cheating if we are not. He’s never been the type to pursue me sexually, yet he has a high drive. That’s weird to me.
> He doesn’t hug me or anything when he walks in the door after work.
> There is no cuddling at night. Idk. So much intimacy is missing. I feel so hurt and mad I don’t initiate any of the intimacy... so I guess it’s half my fault. I would just think I’d you are the one who screwed up you would do anything to make me feel wanted and secure.


Sometimes...we don't know what to ask....just like sometimes...betrayed spouses don't know the answer.

Early on...I asked what do you want me to do? Now I meant it...but he translated it as cant you get over this.

I think FEELINGS are so RAW and both of you are so afraid...that neither of you knows what to do or say.
I could not give him what he was looking for because he could not tell me what he wanted. 

Neither of us were to blame....and we both wanted the same thing...for it to never have happened.


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## Rhubarb (Dec 1, 2017)

adegirl2016 said:


> But wouldn’t you think he would be trying? I guess that’s what I am trying to figure out.


Yup, if he was really feeling a lot of guilt about hurting you, I think he would be trying. Bottom line is the best husbands and wives don't cheat on their spouses. If nothing else their conscious would stop them from doing so. You seem to be somewhat in denial about this. You are are dealing with a sub-optimal husband, and as I said he has suffered no serious consequences for his actions. Just what is his incentive to change his behavior?

I've been through this before. The touchy feely stuff almost never works. My wife never showed any remorse until a couple months after our divorce, when she called me a few times and broke down crying. You need to make it damned clear to him that you won't put up with being walked on. He has to know he will face consequences, serious consequences like being out on his ass. You have to be willing to not just make threats, but go though with them if he isn't responding. In short you need to get angry not just upset. In my view marriage counseling is almost always a waste of time in cases of infidelity because they are in the business of stringing out the recovery. That's how they make money. Of course there are exceptions but I think they are way in the minority. It's very hard to find good statistics on this.


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## adegirl2016 (Dec 14, 2016)

I am trying to get back in touch with an attorney to set up a post nup... if all else fails at least there is that


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

adegirl2016 said:


> I am trying to get back in touch with an attorney to set up a post nup... if all else fails at least there is that


Research carefully. Pre-Nups and Post-Nups are often not as good as the paper they're written on if contested. Remember, state law and "for the good of.." trump private contracts.


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## adegirl2016 (Dec 14, 2016)

I read my State is in favor of them... but yes will do more research.


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## adegirl2016 (Dec 14, 2016)

I don’t think seeing a therapist is a terrible idea. With the lack of intimacy on many other levels, it could help me have the relationship I am looking for even if it doesn’t take away the cheating.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

adegirl2016 said:


> So we have started seeing a therapist again over the last few weeks.
> 
> Many of you know my husband cheated on me with a really young female coworker 14 months ago. He has done some repair work. He has made some changes. But I do not feel that he has come to the remorseful part yet. Our therapist met with me alone last week and came to the conclusion that I am not healed yet because he is not remorseful yet.
> 
> ...


He never developed a strong sense of remorse because you didn't leave him. He doesn't truly realize how much he hurt you by cheating. If your partner cheats on you, separate and let them experience what life is like without you for several weeks. That's the only way to make them self-reflect and to realize how ugly and destructive cheating is to a relationship.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> OK so its more likely that he is sorry because he got caught. A person who is truly remorseful would stop the affair and come clean about it.
> When you think about it he hasn't had to face any serious consequences for his actions which may not help him to see the devastation he caused. He wasn't at risk of you leaving and he hasn't lost his children, so for him he maybe doesn't realise just how serious adultery is.
> Maybe if you had told him to leave and made it clear that you may not have him back, he would have been shocked into realising what he nearly lost.


Very well written.


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## adegirl2016 (Dec 14, 2016)

Looking back, I wish I would have made him stay away from the house longer and done exactley what you said. Let him come to the hospital for the birth but make him leave after. I’m not sure if some of you know this but it happened days before our daughter was due. The reason I let him stay was bc I didn’t want him to miss the birth and he trickle truthed me. I wish I could take it back but there is nothing I can do.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

adegirl2016 said:


> I don’t think seeing a therapist is a terrible idea. With the lack of intimacy on many other levels, it could help me have the relationship I am looking for *even if it doesn’t take away the cheating*.


Therapy can't "take away the cheating". It happened. More than once. It will always be there. It's a part of your story. Therapy can help you learn coping strategies and help you verbalize the feelings, though.



adegirl2016 said:


> Looking back, I wish I would have made him stay away from the house longer and done exactley what you said. Let him come to the hospital for the birth but make him leave after. I’m not sure if some of you know this but it happened days before our daughter was due. The reason I let him stay was bc I didn’t want him to miss the birth and he trickle truthed me. I wish I could take it back but there is nothing I can do.


You can't take back decisions you made then, but you can do whatever the hell you please now. If you don't think he's putting in sufficient effort, showing remorse, or being the absolute best husband he can be on all levels, well, throw him out now.


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## adegirl2016 (Dec 14, 2016)

Is there any hope for someone who has no idea what intimacy is? We have discovered this in counseling. It’s pretty obvious that he has no clue by his actions - but just wondering if this is something that can be learned and how. He says he has never felt an intimate connection with anyone really. He has been in relationships in the past but I would bet they have been similar to ours (selfish in bed, porn, cheating, etc) can this be learned?? Are there any good books out there?


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

adegirl2016 said:


> Is there any hope for someone who has no idea what intimacy is? We have discovered this in counseling. It’s pretty obvious that he has no clue by his actions - but just wondering if this is something that can be learned and how. *He says he has never felt an intimate connection with anyone really.* He has been in relationships in the past but I would bet they have been similar to ours (selfish in bed, porn, cheating, etc) can this be learned?? Are there any good books out there?


crap...

its a lost cause, unless you have a heart of wrought iron. 

the bolded was me until ten years ago.


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## adegirl2016 (Dec 14, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> adegirl2016 said:
> 
> 
> > Is there any hope for someone who has no idea what intimacy is? We have discovered this in counseling. It’s pretty obvious that he has no clue by his actions - but just wondering if this is something that can be learned and how. *He says he has never felt an intimate connection with anyone really.* He has been in relationships in the past but I would bet they have been similar to ours (selfish in bed, porn, cheating, etc) can this be learned?? Are there any good books out there?
> ...


You used to be this way?? What made you change? I mean I am wondering if he truly doesn’t know or understand. If we have zero intimacy (mentally, physically) how can we ever be faithful to each other? 

I can’t remember where I read it but I read there is a big difference in men who see their wife as someone to expand their sexuality and experiences with and men who see sex as sex.. wife or not. The latter tend to have affairs.
Our sex life is very stale but it’s not bc I haven’t tried. Being intimate and expanding our sexual relationship has never been important to him. 
I feel like it’s not me, bc my relationship with my ex was phenomenal when it came to intimacy. We were super close and comfortable. I almost feel uncomfortable with my husband. I want this to change. I feel so deprived of this.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

adegirl2016 said:


> You used to be this way?? What made you change? I mean I am wondering if he truly doesn’t know or understand. If we have zero intimacy (mentally, physically) how can we ever be faithful to each other?
> 
> I can’t remember where I read it but I read there is a big difference in men who see their wife as someone to expand their sexuality and experiences with and men who see sex as sex.. wife or not. The latter tend to have affairs.
> Our sex life is very stale but it’s not bc I haven’t tried. Being intimate and expanding our sexual relationship has never been important to him.
> I feel like it’s not me, bc my relationship with my ex was phenomenal when it came to intimacy. We were super close and comfortable. I almost feel uncomfortable with my husband. I want this to change. I feel so deprived of this.


it is definitely not you. your husband likely has one of the nasty personality disorders. 

ok... so, your not going to be able to get him to understand what he has done to you unless you can do something to him that impacts him _in the same way_ his actions have impacted you. actually, it doesnt even have to be you that does it. whatever it is, it has to impact him in the same way, emotionally. only THEN can he experience empathy for what you are going through. 

but here is the catch: how does a person cause pain(betrayal, specifically) to someone who has never felt connected to another person?

the only thing that changed my outlook on everything and caused me to learn to empathize was a near death experience. my liver and kidneys failed, my heart stopped, i was declared dead.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Why are you staying really?


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## adegirl2016 (Dec 14, 2016)

Bc I am hoping/wishing he can learn intimacy and empathy. So we can raise our three young children together. 

We jumped into this relationship quickly, so I can understand what has gone wrong. We married after 5-6 months of dating. We were pregnant when we got married. It was almost forced. It’s like he doesn’t know how to be married. He has treated me badly over these years but says he wants to change. He has made some big changes in the last year but I am still waiting on the empathy and intimacy.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

He may or may not be capable of what you want. You need a long-term plan for how to live your life if he isn't capable. Change is very hard and requires a lot of work. Most people who try to change sooner or later give up because that's the easier path. Maybe he'll be a success story -- but he might not. Be prepared.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

adegirl2016 said:


> Bc I am hoping/wishing he can learn intimacy and empathy. So we can raise our three young children together.
> 
> We jumped into this relationship quickly, so I can understand what has gone wrong. We married after 5-6 months of dating. We were pregnant when we got married. It was almost forced. It’s like he doesn’t know how to be married. He has treated me badly over these years but says he wants to change. He has made some big changes in the last year but I am still waiting on the empathy and intimacy.


My $0.02 is that I don't think empathy and intimacy can be learned. I think people either are either naturally wired for it, have had some shocking/traumatic experience that changes them, or they learn to mimic the behaviors required.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

adegirl2016 said:


> It’s like he doesn’t know how to be married. He has treated me badly over these years but says he wants to change. He has made some big changes in the last year but I am still waiting on the empathy and intimacy.


You've been getting a lot of doom and gloom posts from posters that consistently encourage divorce in every infidelity situation. Your husband HAS made it easy for them to pick on your situation as entirely hopeless but my wife and I have helped many people recover their marriages and families from infidelity and seeming neurosis. 

I don't know if your husband is redeemable or not and neither does anyone else. Not even the best psychiatrist in the world could determine whether your husband is mentailly ill based upon a few postings by his wife on an internet forum describing his behavior over a couple of years. Being wayward and living with yourself requires a certain set of mental gymnastics that can make anyone APPEAR to be crazy. Once he gets through the mindset through the process of repentance, suddenly, he just might become human again and be able to FEEL, have intimacy and empathy again.

If he doesn't know how to be married then, TOGETHER, with him, learn how. Start HERE

Encourage him. He doesn't necessarily have to be all that empathetic to undertake and incorporate the skills and tools you two learn together to just behave like good and great couples do. Just do it. 

Men tend to like a program and to have an instruction manual. Asking him to be intimate or empathetic doesn't help because he doesn't know what that means he's supposed to do whereas working a program like Marriage Building just describes patterns of behavior and rules to live by which are easy to live by and MUTUALLY rewarding. He's not just the bad guy here and forever being punished for his past behavior or to FEEL {and explain FEELINGS he's incapable of feeling or describing} but, instead, opening his life up to accountability {thereby minimizing the risk he'll cheat again} while also experiencing with you the benefits of a improving marriage instead of seeming endless consequences and dead ends trying to discuss and fix the past. 

It will forever suck what he did to you but it doesn't have to be who he is forever. You've got 3 children counting on the two of you to TRY to figure this out and fix it. 

On the flip side, if your husband refuses to enthusiastically engage in such recovery program I would encourage you to consider ending the marriage in the following manner. 

 When to Call it Quits 


Some changes just aren't enough. He's either got to be all in or you're not sticking around waiting for him to grow the Fudge up. At the same time, you have to be a salesman and encourage him throughout the learning process to keep him on board with the absolute fact that doing this recovery program is NOT a punishment or consequence of his past behavior, but, rather, a way for both of you to become better spouses and actually happy in the long run for yourselves and your children. 

If you aren't able to divorce him right now do to the ages of your children, lack of job experience and|or lack of financial means, then DO NOT GET PREGNANT AGAIN and take the next several years to prepare yourself to be in a position to divorce when it's more feasible. Get a part time job. Build your resume, do some work at home or on the internet or take classes and get a certificate or degree locally somehow using your husband as the built-in FREE baby-sitter while being very careful around men not your husband lest you fall into the same infidelity trap with the first guy that seemingly treats you kindly {any man that flirts with and hits on married women with 3 kids is actually insulting you - it's not a compliment}.


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