# Read: Shooter Elliot Rodger said he was ‘the good guy’ in manifesto, ‘My Twisted Worl



## ntamph (Apr 23, 2013)

Read: Shooter Elliot Rodger said he was ‘the good guy’ in manifesto, ‘My Twisted World’

I've also read that he frequented MRA forums and such and that his rants were so bad that they were flagged and sometimes removed (which is saying a lot). He seems like a spoiled kid who never had to work. Any thoughts?


----------



## ntamph (Apr 23, 2013)

No one? I haven't been on TAM in a while and I thought people would be talking about this. :scratchhead:


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

ntamph...I just now posted a link on the virgin thread. I just today heard about it.

My thoughts are all over the place about it but mostly it is a heartbreaking tragedy for all those victims and family members.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

He is beyond a spoiled kid. He was obviously mentally ill. As usual there was plenty of notice. People knew and no one acted quickly enough or strongly enough to stop him.

The problem is that our country has laws the prevent family and others from dealing decisively and quickly with the mentally ill.

Then instead of addressing our stupid laws, everyone want to just cry about guns.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

Saw it but been busy. I'm not familiar with MRA, but the guy seems to be the opposite of what you see on PUA forums - where the message is "its not them man, its you. Work on yourself and your presentation."

I saw the dude's video and it looks to me like he has a serious superiority issue. Its likely no one liked him, period; not just women. There's some kind of mental issue going on there.

I don't think its very fair to draw too much of a comparison with this guy and your average frustrated chump. Still, its a matter of time before this is used to highlight male entitlement, repression of women or some other off base reactionary idea. The bottom line is that crazy frustrated lonely people do crazy things to the world they believe "oppresses" them. Crazy will be crazy, whether its a crazy lonely kid shooting all the cool kids at school, or a crazy lonely guy shooting women and the guys they pick.


----------



## ntamph (Apr 23, 2013)

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Saw it but been busy. I'm not familiar with MRA, but the guy seems to be the opposite of what you see on PUA forums - where the message is "its not them man, its you. Work on yourself and your presentation."


If MRA/PUA was about self improvement they wouldn't be telling guys that they only have to learn how to destroy a girl's self esteem fast enough to get her to sleep with you.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

ntamph said:


> If MRA/PUA was about self improvement they wouldn't be telling guys that they only have to learn how to destroy a girl's self esteem fast enough to get her to sleep with you.


Can you give an example, ntamph? I am not very familiar with MRA/PUA stuff. Doesn't sound very healthy the way you describe it.


----------



## ntamph (Apr 23, 2013)

jld said:


> Can you give an example, ntamph? I am not very familiar with MRA/PUA stuff. Doesn't sound very healthy the way you describe it.


One of their ideas is that extremely attractive women are used to having men be nice to them their entire lives because they are hot. So by being intentionally mean to an attractive woman you get her attention and make yourself "higher status."

But really you probably just get slapped.


----------



## FormerSelf (Apr 21, 2013)

What a warped kid. I laughed at his manifesto when he described being born, saying how proud his parents _must_ have been that day. Not anymore, pal...not anymore....


----------



## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

ntamph said:


> If MRA/PUA was about self improvement they wouldn't be telling guys that they only have to learn how to destroy a girl's self esteem fast enough to get her to sleep with you.


Actually, it seems this guy was a member of the PUAHate forum (defunct this weekend), which is anti-game and pro sucking up beta orbiting. Unfortunately, that strategy never works. Notice that this individual has a number of mass shooter hallmarks, anti-social, a known threat, police contacts, family trying in some way to get help, an immigrant, and a very deep and wide sense of unearned self-esteem. It's also odd that, although not of nordic extraction himself, he seemed to feel entitled to the cream of nordic women and was irate that they would choose minorities (other than his minority) to consort with. 

So, you're wrong. He's just another socially disordered immigrant nutcase that everybody recognized as toxic. Not any great mystery that no woman wanted to get anywhere near him.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

OK so I found an article that has some of his postings from the PUAhate site...

Elliot Rodger Posted Racist Messages on PuaHate Website | Mediaite

Alright then... white girls don't care about shoes... ok


http://www.mediaite.com/online/what...to-elliot-rodgers-anti-pickup-artist-hangout/


----------



## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

You mention unearned self esteem. My husband and I were talking about this today when we were watching this story on the news. This "thing" that has permeated society that everybody wins and everyone gets a trophy even if they suck. OMG if you tell someone they're not good at something!

My husband sees this every day at work. He's a firefighter he says the guys that come on job that are 20+ years younger need constant praise and recognition. Just for doing their job! They will even contact HR to complain. They feel entitled to it.

While this is only one aspect in this guy's mental problems, I think unearned self esteem is really starting to bite us in the butt. When did this all start? In the 80's?




Machiavelli said:


> Actually, it seems this guy was a member of the PUAHate forum (defunct this weekend), which is anti-game and pro sucking up beta orbiting. Unfortunately, that strategy never works. Notice that this individual has a number of mass shooter hallmarks, anti-social, a known threat, police contacts, family trying in some way to get help, an immigrant, and a very deep and wide sense of unearned self-esteem. It's also odd that, although not of nordic extraction himself, he seemed to feel entitled to the cream of nordic women and was irate that they would choose minorities (other than his minority) to consort with.
> 
> So, you're wrong. He's just another socially disordered immigrant nutcase that everybody recognized as toxic. Not any great mystery that no woman wanted to get anywhere near him.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

ntamph said:


> If MRA/PUA was about self improvement they wouldn't be telling guys that they only have to learn how to destroy a girl's self esteem fast enough to get her to sleep with you.


I don't know what MRA is about, but if you're talking about PUA bringing down a woman's self-esteem I'd argue you're reading someone full of crap or not understanding the real point.

The vast majority of guys interested in pickup techniques are not some kind of villainous woman haters who just want to be pros at getting laid. Most would be happy to land a girlfriend they think is attractive, period.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

ntamph said:


> One of their ideas is that extremely attractive women are used to having men be nice to them their entire lives because they are hot. So by being intentionally mean to an attractive woman you get her attention and make yourself "higher status."
> 
> But really you probably just get slapped.


This shows you have zero idea what you're talking about. Only the most pedestal placing man would find this "mean". In practice, it works out as teasing and being c*cky... and yes - more women eat it up than don't. It is the opposite of sucking up to women to be nice in hopes that they'll like you. The latter is what this loon did. He tried to play the worshipping gentleman and couldn't understand why women don't go for a guy being soooo "nice" to them. He is literally the opposite of PUA principles.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Women did not reject this guy because he was a nice guy. 

If any woman acutally did reject him, it was because he clearly had a mental health issue.

Keep in mind that he blames his massacre on a girl who he claims rejected him and laughed at him. Well, it turns out that she was 10 years old when the supposed incent happened. He was 12. She has not seen him since she that year in school.

I wonder how many girls/woman he ever actually approached. Probably few to none.


----------



## delirium (Apr 23, 2012)

I saw the video he posted right before the shootings. So creepy. He sounded like he was playing a character with all that laughter. I don't think it's as simple as he's just a narcissistic, over-privileged kid. There are severe mental issues there. Even if he did manage to get a girlfriend at some point, he would have found reasons to feel rejected by her and end up hating her regardless of how she treated him. He hated anyone who had or denied him what he felt he was entitled to. 

I'm still shocked that several therapists and family members were worried that he was a danger to himself/others, yet he was still somehow able to obtain a handgun, etc?


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

There is on way with our laws to address the problem of a mentally ill person. Until he committed a criminal act he has rights. 

It's too bad that those concerned about him had no right to have him legally committed for the help he obviously needed.


----------



## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

ntamph said:


> Read: Shooter Elliot Rodger said he was ‘the good guy’ in manifesto, ‘My Twisted World’
> 
> I've also read that he frequented MRA forums and such and that his rants were so bad that they were flagged and sometimes removed (which is saying a lot). He seems like a spoiled kid who never had to work. Any thoughts?


You're saying on one hand that he frequented MRA forums and that his rants were so bad that they were removed.

You also seem to be implying that MRA / PUA sites were responsible for his behavior .

Then you end by saying he seemed like a spoiled kid who never had to work.

If it was discovered that he frequented TAM , what would you conclude?






Exactly.
Maybe all three had something to do with his actions ? 
Maybe not?

Here's an excerpt from his " manifesto."

_" “My orchestration of the Day of Retribution is my attempt to do everything, in my power, to destroy everything I cannot have. All of those beautiful girls I’ve desired so much in my life, but can never have because they despise and loathe me, I will destroy. All of those popular people who live hedonistic lives of pleasure, I will destroy, because they never accepted me as one of them. I will kill them all and make them suffer, just as they have made me suffer. It is only fair.”.."_

Maybe he was just another mentally deranged person, thinking that he has a God given entitlement to things which he is not.
Just like those other shooters in the Virgina Tech , Fort Hood , Aurora Colorado and the many other mass shootings , where hundreds of male and female victims , including children ,have died.

So no,the problem isn't guns , MRA's , PUA's , the Batman Trilogy , busy shopping malls or schools.

The problem is mental illness.


----------



## Omego (Apr 17, 2013)

delirium said:


> I'm still shocked that several therapists and family members were worried that he was a danger to himself/others, yet he was still somehow able to obtain a handgun, etc?


:iagree::iagree::iagree: THIS ^^^^^^ !


----------



## Omego (Apr 17, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> There is on way with our laws to address the problem of a mentally ill person. Until he committed a criminal act he has rights.
> 
> It's too bad that those concerned about him had no right to have him legally committed for the help he obviously needed.


Yes, but you can't go around committing people because they are mentally ill. The system of checks and balances has to be respected. 

If he hadn't had access to weapons, no one would be dead... I'm not going to start a gun control discussion because that's already been done to death in another thread, I believe.

It's the same story over and over.


----------



## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

IMO this has nothing to do with PUA/MRA, privilege, or even the fact that he was a virgin. Some people just ain't "right". He would have just found some other reason to kill people.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Omego said:


> Yes, but you can't go around committing people because they are mentally ill. The system of checks and balances has to be respected.
> 
> If he hadn't had access to weapons, no one would be dead... I'm not going to start a gun control discussion because that's already been done to death in another thread, I believe.
> 
> It's the same story over and over.


When a person starts writing the things he wrote and make the videos that he made, yes we should be able to commit them and treat them. 

I have a schizophrenic nephew we will all be reading about in the news one day. We have tried to get someone to take his threats seriously. We have been dealing with this for years. He's a horrible tragedy waiting to happen.


----------



## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

soccermom2three said:


> You mention unearned self esteem. My husband and I were talking about this today when we were watching this story on the news. This "thing" that has permeated society that everybody wins and everyone gets a trophy even if they suck. OMG if you tell someone they're not good at something!
> 
> My husband sees this every day at work. He's a firefighter he says the guys that come on job that are 20+ years younger need constant praise and recognition. Just for doing their job! They will even contact HR to complain. They feel entitled to it.
> 
> While this is only one aspect in this guy's mental problems, I think unearned self esteem is really starting to bite us in the butt. When did this all start? In the 80's?


:iagree: This.


----------



## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

I see three issues, that didn't help this situation. 

One is mental illness. There is no where near enough help for those who are mentally ill and their families. And whoever said it's hard to get the balance right is correct, mentally ill people do have rights, and we can't think that every schizophrenic is dangerous, because statistically they are not. However families do need to be taken more seriously when voicing concerns. 

Availability of guns, he should never have been able to obtain one. 

Lastly, the idea from some that they as men are entitled to sex with women. Misogyny is an issue. There are people who encourage it. There are sites that encourage it. I have even read some bizarre stuff on TAM (from certain members) from time to time, that to me is very harmful and Misogynistic. 

That said I'm sure there are other things at play, that we don't know about. And I feel terribly for the families and friends of those who lost their lives.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

*LittleDeer* said:


> One is mental illness. There is no where near enough help for those who are mentally ill and their families. And whoever said it's hard to get the balance right is correct, mentally ill people do have rights, and we can't think that every schizophrenic is dangerous, because statistically they are not. However families do need to be taken more seriously when voicing concerns.


You are right. Most schizophrenics are not a danger. Most mentally ill people are not a danger to others. They are usually more likely to hurt themselves then to hurt others.

But, when a mentally ill person starts making lists of the people they intend to kill and talking/writing about how they are going to do it... it has to be taken seriously. Response should be immediate.

This is what is not happening. A lot of people seemed to know that his guy was a danger and no one really did anything.



*LittleDeer* said:


> Availability of guns, he should never have been able to obtain one.


It's almost impossible for family and mental health professionals to get anyone to pay attention to a person who is dangerous. We went to court to have my nephew committed because of his plans. He told the judge of his plans. The judge did commit him. Then the hospital released him because there were no funds to pay for his say. It's like $10,000 - $20,000 a month for care.

They handed him a bottle of his meds, put him on the street and said to find a doctor, set up an appointment to get treatment. So he dumped the bottle of meds.


----------



## Omego (Apr 17, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> When a person starts writing the things he wrote and make the videos that he made, yes we should be able to commit them and treat them.
> 
> I have a schizophrenic nephew we will all be reading about in the news one day. We have tried to get someone to take his threats seriously. We have been dealing with this for years. He's a horrible tragedy waiting to happen.


I'm sorry to hear about your nephew. Yes, this child should have been treated and/or committed a long time ago. 

But as Little Deer said, there are several issues at play. Why in the world was this young man allowed to go purchase I don't know how many semi-automatic or whatever such weapons??? There is a lot of information missing, obviously, but did no one think to verify whether or not he had access to guns? Should there not be a law to better control who can purchase weapons and who cannot? 

He killed two or was it three persons with a knife. The other three were killed with guns. If he hadn't been able to purchase those guns, he would have had more difficulty killing them.


----------



## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

I think this guy was sick...that is it. It had nothing to do with loneliness, not being able to get a date, etc. etc. He thought highly of himself..on his facebook nothing but pictures of him thinking he looks real hot. That is strange in it self.

To stab to death three people is more than just poor me I can't get a date..it takes a very warped and psychotic mind to do that.


----------



## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

I should add that I am grateful that I live in Canada where gun deaths here do not even come close to the US. Sorry but you guys enjoy your guns a little too much and I do not get understand it. I don't blame that father of one of the victims for being absolutely furious about how nothing every gets done re: gun laws.


----------



## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

delirium said:


> I'm still shocked that several therapists and family members were worried that he was a danger to himself/others, yet he was still somehow able to obtain a handgun, etc?


Not only that, but half of the murders were committed with a knife and a lot of the injured were run over with his BMW. How did a nut like this get a knife or a car?


----------



## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

highwood said:


> I should add that I am grateful that I live in Canada where gun deaths here do not even come close to the US. Sorry but you guys enjoy your guns a little too much and I do not get understand it. I don't blame that father of one of the victims for being absolutely furious about how nothing every gets done re: gun laws.


Y'all also had a woman hating loser, a half-caste Algerian run amok, with a personality just like this guy, named Gamil Gharbi. He shot 14 women in Montreal back in 1989.

The only "father" i've heard complaining so far is the immigrant father of the killer. If guns are a problem for him, and not lack of personal responsibility, America is probably not the place he needed to immigrate to. And while we're on the subject, what do the fathers of his stabbing victims complain about? Butcher knife availability?

Modern society breed craziness like never before. Not only that, we tolerate it to a much greater extreme than ever before.

This kid was practically proclaiming himself to be Napolean (Anglo-Sino Edition). When even the expert psychiatrists of bodybuilding.com correctly pronounce someone to be a mass murder waiting to happen, you have to wonder about the competence of the system and the people who staff it.


----------



## Omego (Apr 17, 2013)

Machiavelli said:


> Modern society breed craziness like never before. Not only that, we tolerate it to a much greater extreme than ever before.
> 
> This kid was practically proclaiming himself to be Napolean (Anglo-Sino Edition). When even the expert psychiatrists of bodybuilding.com correctly pronounce someone to be a mass murder waiting to happen, you have to wonder about the competence of the system and the people who staff it.


Yes, this is true and I'm surprised we haven't heard anything yet about the doctors who were treating him. The point remains that he never should have had access to the weapon. Yeah, I hear you: there was the car, the knife, but come on. How many random killing sprees by nutcases with guns have there been? Those high school boys in Washington State, Sandy Hook, etc. and the list goes on and on....


----------



## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Omego said:


> If he hadn't had access to weapons, no one would be dead... I'm not going to start a gun control discussion because that's already been done to death in another thread, I believe.


 The news media has downplayed the fact that he killed the first 3 of his 6 victims (all male) with a knife and not a gun, such that many have been lead to falsely beleive that if he did not have access to guns, no one would be dead. Since cutting off access to knives is impossible unless someone has been committed, this guy was going to kill people one way or another because he was sick.


----------



## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Omego said:


> I'm sorry to hear about your nephew. Yes, this child should have been treated and/or committed a long time ago.


I'm sure in the next few days we'll get more facts than we need to know on this kids treatment, but thanks to the SCOTUS, once you're 21 you pretty much have to be a mass murderer to get sent to the state mental hospital. Schizophrenia and the like also has a nasty habit of emerging right about that age, which makes it even tougher, in the US system, to deal with. Now, if the parents knew this kid had a problem prior to him reaching 21, that's a whole 'nother story.



Omego said:


> But as Little Deer said, there are several issues at play. Why in the world was this young man allowed to go purchase I don't know how many semi-automatic or whatever such weapons???


There are few restrictions on knives and BMWs in California. In the case of his pistol, California has some of the most restrictive state laws in the US. 



Omego said:


> There is a lot of information missing, obviously, but did no one think to verify whether or not he had access to guns? Should there not be a law to better control who can purchase weapons and who cannot?


If he bought them from a dealer, he would have had to clear the federal NICS background check. If he had no criminal felony record and never been adjudicated as mentally defective or committed to a mental institution, then there is no basis on which to deny him his civil rights.



Omego said:


> He killed two or was it three persons with a knife. The other three were killed with guns. If he hadn't been able to purchase those guns, he would have had more difficulty killing them.


He stabbed three to death and injured a number of people with his car. Westerners who have never trained with edged weapons have a hard time comprehending the damage you can do with a knife. That's one reason OJ got off. However, consider that the Hutus killed 1M Tutsis in 90 days, mostly with nothing more than machetes. About 18 months back, some guy stabbed 21 school kids in China and about three months ago 29 people were stabbed to death on a train platform in Kunming.


----------



## Omego (Apr 17, 2013)

TRy said:


> The news media has downplayed the fact that he killed the first 3 of his 6 victims (all male) with a knife and not a gun, such that many have been lead to falsely beleive that if he did not have access to guns, no one would be dead. Since cutting off access to knives is impossible unless someone has been committed, this guy was going to kill people one way or another because he was sick.


Yes, I did note this point. And anyone can buy a knife, so yes, he would have been able to do damage no matter what.


----------



## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Omego said:


> How many random killing sprees by nutcases with guns have there been? Those high school boys in Washington State, Sandy Hook, etc. and the list goes on and on....


 How many random thugs on a crime spree have there been that were driven off by people defending themselves with guns? Studies show that the list goes on and on, but since no one is usually hurt, it does not make the news.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Omego said:


> I'm sorry to hear about your nephew. Yes, this child should have been treated and/or committed a long time ago.
> 
> But as Little Deer said, there are several issues at play. Why in the world was this young man allowed to go purchase I don't know how many semi-automatic or whatever such weapons??? There is a lot of information missing, obviously, but did no one think to verify whether or not he had access to guns? Should there not be a law to better control who can purchase weapons and who cannot?
> 
> He killed two or was it three persons with a knife. The other three were killed with guns. If he hadn't been able to purchase those guns, he would have had more difficulty killing them.


He was able to purchase guns because the laws in this country do not allow anyone to intervene and get him tagged as a danger. That is the point.


----------



## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Omego said:


> Yes, this is true and I'm surprised we haven't heard anything yet about the doctors who were treating him. The point remains that he never should have had access to the weapon. Yeah, I hear you: there was the car, the knife, but come on. How many random killing sprees by nutcases with guns have there been? Those high school boys in Washington State, Sandy Hook, etc. and the list goes on and on....


I guess we could essentially ban guns, like Mexico, Nigeria, and a few other countries. On the other hand, we could halt all immigration and deport all aliens, both legal and illegal, and cut our mass shooting rate by about 50% overnight. How do you like that solution?


----------



## Omego (Apr 17, 2013)

Machiavelli said:


> I'm sure in the next few days we'll get more facts than we need to know on this kids treatment, but thanks to the SCOTUS, once you're 21 you pretty much have to be a mass murderer to get sent to the state mental hospital. Schizophrenia and the like also has a nasty habit of emerging right about that age, which makes it even tougher, in the US system, to deal with. Now, if the parents knew this kid had a problem prior to him reaching 21, that's a whole 'nother story.
> 
> If he bought them from a dealer, he would have had to clear the federal NICS background check. If he had no criminal felony record and never been adjudicated as mentally defective or committed to a mental institution, then there is no basis on which to deny him his civil rights.
> 
> He stabbed three to death and injured a number of people with his car. Westerners who have never trained with edged weapons have a hard time comprehending the damage you can do with a knife.


I agree with what you are saying. The first, and most important point is that he should have been prevented. This case is probably not the most pertinent one around which to discuss gun control laws... Anyway, I think only police officers and members of the military should be allowed access to pistols, semi-automatic and automatic weapons, so I'm sure we'll have to agree to disagree on this point!


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Omego said:


> Yes, this is true and I'm surprised we haven't heard anything yet about the doctors who were treating him. The point remains that he never should have had access to the weapon. Yeah, I hear you: there was the car, the knife, but come on. How many random killing sprees by nutcases with guns have there been? Those high school boys in Washington State, Sandy Hook, etc. and the list goes on and on....


In Sandy Hook, the guy was certifiably crazy. His mother had been fighting in court to get him committed. The courts would not cooperate with a mother telling them that her son was going to kill people.

He killed his mother and STOLE the guns. He did not have legal access to the guns.

If the courts and mental health people had done what they should have, he would have been safely in an institution.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Machiavelli said:


> He stabbed three to death and injured a number of people with his car. Westerners who have never trained with edged weapons have a hard time comprehending the damage you can do with a knife. That's one reason OJ got off. However, consider that the Hutus killed 1M Tutsis in 90 days, mostly with nothing more than machetes. About 18 months back, some guy stabbed 21 school kids in China and about three months ago 29 people were stabbed to death on a train platform in Kunming.


But.. but... it's guns, man


----------



## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Omego said:


> Anyway, I think only police officers should be able to have pistols, semi-automatic and automatic weapons, so I'm sure we'll have to agree to disagree on this point!


LOL. Yes, we will definitely have to agree to disagree on that one. As for automatics, they're already very tightly regulated by the feds, but imported into the US as contraband by the Mexican cartels and Asian gangs.


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

The problem with reducing all explanations to the autonomous and independent actions of a mentally ill individual is that it doesn't give room to explore connections between these "isolated" incidents.

Connections such as
- the prevalence of certain types of mental illness, often with poorer overall outcomes than found in other cultures
-attitudes towards and treatment of those with mental illnesses, and the impact of this on outcomes
-the prevalence of feelings of alienation, isolation, and entitlement that again vary widely in different cultural contexts
-availability of high powered weapons and comparative rates of violent crime
-cultural attitudes towards women and violent misogyny

Understanding these types of connections can yield much in understanding that we are all operating in a context, and that context plays a huge role in our "autonomous and independent" actions.


----------



## Omego (Apr 17, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> He was able to purchase guns because the laws in this country do not allow anyone to intervene and get him tagged as a danger. That is the point.


I did say that there should be better laws or better ways to control or identify potential risks linked to the sale of weapons, knowing full well that they'll never be restricted to only the police force, etc. 

Re Sandy Hook: I though the mother had the guns locked up somewhere in the house. It would have been better if she hadn't had any at all. I may not have the facts straight, however.


----------



## Ripper (Apr 1, 2014)

The unhinged loon is the issue. Not the car, knife, or gun.

If you have a problem with the 2nd Amendment, there exists a process in which to legally change it, via Article V. 

Just remember, the greatest instrument of mass murder has always been tyrannical governments.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Women did not reject this guy because he was a nice guy.
> 
> If any woman acutally did reject him, it was because he clearly had a mental health issue.
> 
> ...


Didn't he blame the massacre on virtually everyone? I mean, I read he wrote a 150 page document. Hello nuts. No debating that. He did seem to think of himself as very respectful and gentlemanly though - and I'd bet even that came off really creepy because he was crazy.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

Omego said:


> If he hadn't had access to weapons, no one would be dead... I'm not going to start a gun control discussion because that's already been done to death in another thread, I believe.


I can make a bomb with perfectly legal and common components that don't even get the scrutiny that guns do. And given one doesn't have to be present, or can immediately evacuate, before they go off - the guy could have done a LOT more damage doing so.

I'm not really sure its really possible to keep people like this from doing these sorts of things.


----------



## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

always_alone said:


> The problem with reducing all explanations to the autonomous and independent actions of a mentally ill individual is that it doesn't give room to explore connections between these "isolated" incidents.
> 
> Connections such as
> - the prevalence of certain types of mental illness, often with poorer overall outcomes than found in other cultures
> ...


People like this kid often come to an early demise in other cultures. Most nations have quite a bit more violent crime and murder than the USA, as we see a couple of miles south of Laredo. Now the USA does has more murder, but not necessarily more violent crime, than Western Europe, UK/Canada/ANZ, and Japan. Remember that large swathes of the USA, notably those with the highest murder rates, are populated by people who are mostly not of Western European origin and elements of their native culture, particularly with regards to violence, persists. And its not only culture that plays a part in violence, there is also genetics. And, as is the case in many of these events, immigration and the resulting alienation have a part.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

This thread has epic meltdown written all over it!

Gun control, misogyny, immigration, race, the mentally ill and civil rights... hello powder keg. haha


----------



## Omego (Apr 17, 2013)

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> This thread has epic meltdown written all over it!
> 
> Gun control, misogyny, immigration, race, the mentally ill and civil rights... hello powder keg. haha


Yes indeed it does!



Machiavelli said:


> Remember that large swathes of the USA, notably those with the highest murder rates, are populated by people who are mostly not of Western European origin and elements of their native culture, particularly with regards to violence, persists.


:scratchhead:


----------



## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> This thread has epic meltdown written all over it!
> 
> Gun control, misogyny, immigration, race, the mentally ill and civil rights... hello powder keg. haha


No kidding. Every hot button known to mankind. This one should be consigned to the politics sub-forum.


----------



## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> In Sandy Hook, the guy was certifiably crazy. His mother had been fighting in court to get him committed. The courts would not cooperate with a mother telling them that her son was going to kill people.
> 
> He killed his mother and STOLE the guns. He did not have legal access to the guns.
> 
> If the courts and mental health people had done what they should have, he would have been safely in an institution.


 Her is the real rub. As our population has grown, it is embarrassing how few new beds are being funded to help treat people with mental health issues. Increasingly we just let our mentally ill become homeless. Blaming guns is just avoiding discussing this issue.


----------



## delirium (Apr 23, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> Not only that, but half of the murders were committed with a knife and a lot of the injured were run over with his BMW. How did a nut like this get a knife or a car?


I wasn't blaming the gun. 

So what you're saying is, since the person will find a way to kill anyway, you don't think mental health issues such as this should be taken into account when it comes to purchasing guns?


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> No kidding. Every hot button known to mankind. This one should be consigned to the politics sub-forum.


Interesting that you just predicted this would happen a week or two ago.


----------



## wtf2012 (Oct 22, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> No kidding. Every hot button known to mankind. This one should be consigned to the politics sub-forum.


Not true. We don't have to worry about an abortion from his past making its way into the discussion


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*So can someone adequately enlighten me as to why this "Nutjob's" right to purchase himself a firearm, preeminently trumped the right's of all of those whom he killed, to live a prosperous and productive life?

Oh, that's right! Those kids did live a prosperous and productive life! ~ Only up until the time that this idiot chose to murder them!*


----------



## wtf2012 (Oct 22, 2012)

arbitrator said:


> *So can someone adequately enlighten me as to why this "Nutjob's" right to purchase a firearm preeminently trumped the right's of all of those whom he killed, to live a prosperous and productive life?*


Wait I thought he stabbed his roommates...

You don't own any evil cutlery do you? why some nutjob might use your knife (or one like it) to do horrible things. Let's get rid of all knives in 'Merica, for the children!


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

wtf2012 said:


> Wait I thought he stabbed his roommates...
> 
> You don't own any evil cutlery do you? why some nutjob might use your knife (or one like it) to do horrible things. Let's get rid of all knives in 'Merica, for the children!


*I will stipulate that he did stab the roommates; but he did shoot the others, did he not?

I can't really speak for the knives, but I can for the firearms!*


----------



## Omego (Apr 17, 2013)

arbitrator said:


> *I will stipulate that he did stab the roommates; but he did shoot the others, did he not?
> 
> I can't really speak for the knives, but I can for the firearms!*


Yes, he did. He also shot himself. It's pretty easy to shoot at people, but more difficult to rush up and stab a bunch of people because you have to get closer to them to do that. 

Suicide by stabbing would have been more difficult. Without the gun he'd probably be on trial now.


----------



## wtf2012 (Oct 22, 2012)

Omego said:


> Yes, he did. He also shot himself. It's pretty easy to shoot at people, but more difficult to rush up and stab a bunch of people because you have to get closer to them to do that.
> 
> Suicide by stabbing would have been more difficult. Without the gun he'd probably be on trial now.


Sounds like he did us all a favor by having the gun and offing himself. 

Just my personal opinion, but I would rather be in a gun fight than a knife fight. YMMV

And if a person is so inclined to get suicidal and take others with him, then they could easily find a way to do this without guns. I don't remember any shots being fired on 9/11.


----------



## delirium (Apr 23, 2012)

wtf2012 said:


> And if a person is so inclined to get suicidal and take others with him, then they could easily find a way to do this without guns. I don't remember any shots being fired on 9/11.


I'm not so sure they would, though. Some maybe, but not all of them. 

Roughly 70% of all murders are done with firearms.

FBI — Expanded Homicide Data Table 8

Obviously, it is the PERSON doing the killing, not the gun. The gun just makes it easier and more convenient for them.


----------



## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Machiavelli said:


> It's also odd that, although not of nordic extraction himself, he seemed to feel entitled to the cream of nordic women and was irate that they would choose minorities (other than his minority) to consort with.


Nordic woman? Well...since the thread is all over the place I might as well toss in my two cents I'm a minority and I know a thing or two about the nordic woman. In my youth I noticed that the amount of negative attention I received from other men was directly proportional to the sex rank of the nordic woman accompanying me. I've dated across all color lines, but being honest where I went to college I really didn't have a whole lot of options. I always found the reactions I got from people to be interesting.

RH with a 5 or 6 = nobody bats an eye or cares
RH with a 7 = stared down by other men quite a bit
RH with an 8 or above = overt comments and threats of violence against me. I didn't mind this at all. It just meant that I had chosen well.

Good times, good times.


----------



## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

delirium said:


> I wasn't blaming the gun.
> 
> So what you're saying is, since the person will find a way to kill anyway, you don't think mental health issues such as this should be taken into account when it comes to purchasing guns?


As I posted previously, anyone who has been committed to a mental institution or ruled mentally defective is not eligible to buy a firearm and will crop up on NICS. In the absence of that HIPPA and other federal laws are in effect. It takes court rulings for the federal government to deny someone their civil rights.


----------



## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Interesting that you just predicted this would happen a week or two ago.


All these guys conform to a very similar profile. There are quite a few of them out there. Since this guy generated a fan following overnight (from girls) you can bet copy cats are already planning how to top him. The fingers are already flying on the keyboards as they compose their "manifestos." They see this heavy coverage as acclaim for achievement.


----------



## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

ReformedHubby said:


> Nordic woman? Well...since the thread is all over the place I might as well toss in my two cents I'm a minority and I know a thing or two about the nordic woman. In my youth I noticed that the amount of negative attention I received from other men was directly proportional to the sex rank of the nordic woman accompanying me. I've dated across all color lines, but being honest where I went to college I really didn't have a whole lot of options. I always found the reactions I got from people to be interesting.
> 
> RH with a 5 or 6 = nobody bats an eye or cares
> RH with a 7 = stared down by other men quite a bit
> ...


Funny how that works isn't it? Nobody minds you poaching their mid ranking women, but don't touch the hotties.

The problem for the shooter is that as a self-hating Asian mix with a slight build and an effeminate face, he would have had to have had a very ballsy attitude and some serious game to pull the 5'10" blue-eyed blondes that he craved. This would have been true even if he were sane, impossible for a narcissist with his social deficiencies. 

Unfortunately for him, he was probably slow getting his pubescent testosterone and all obvious indications are that it was not an overwhelming dose. Since women are programmed by Mother Nature to respond to high test males (obnoxious jocks) at puberty, some of the "late bloomers" never bloom. That could all be overcome with game (which he rejected) and physique training, but not for someone this mentally ill.

I wonder what degree if any that divorce and absentee fatherhood contributes to the development of these people. I read somewhere that his Arab step-mother mocked him for being a loser, so she was also on his hit list.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Machiavelli said:


> All these guys conform to a very similar profile. There are quite a few of them out there. Since this guy generated a fan following overnight (from girls) you can bet copy cats are already planning how to top him. The fingers are already flying on the keyboards as they compose their "manifestos." They see this heavy coverage as acclaim for achievement.


I agree with this. The media attention he's getting is going to create copy cats. This guy, more than any previous one of the mass killers is going to become an icon and hero. It's his looks, his ****y emo behavior.


----------



## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Omego said:


> Yes, he did. He also shot himself. It's pretty easy to shoot at people, but more difficult to rush up and stab a bunch of people because you have to get closer to them to do that.


Tell that to the 29 people killed in the Kunming stabbing spree last month.



Omego said:


> Suicide by stabbing would have been more difficult. Without the gun he'd probably be on trial now.


Jigaki. Females belonging to samurai families committed suicide by cutting the arteries of the neck with one stroke, using a knife such as a tantō or kaiken. The main purpose was to achieve a quick and certain death in order to avoid capture.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Machiavelli said:


> Funny how that works isn't it? Nobody minds you poaching their mid ranking women, but don't touch the hotties.
> 
> The problem for the shooter is that as a self-hating Asian mix with a slight build and an effeminate face, he would have had to have had a very ballsy attitude and some serious game to pull the 5'10" blue-eyed blondes that he craved. This would have been true even if he were sane, impossible for a narcissist with his social deficiencies.
> 
> ...


He had a very distorted view of things. A good example of this is him writing about the blond girl that he claimed rejected him and laughed at him. She was 10 years old. He never saw her after that one year in school. Yet 12/13 years later she's the root cause of his pain? 

When he says that his step mother made fun of him, who knows if it's true outside of his twisted view of things.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Machiavelli said:


> Tell that to the 29 people killed in the Kunming stabbing spree last month.
> 
> 
> 
> Jigaki. Females belonging to samurai families committed suicide by cutting the arteries of the neck with one stroke, using a knife such as a tantō or kaiken. The main purpose was to achieve a quick and certain death in order to avoid capture.


My ex's grandmother committed suicide by stabbing herself 21 times in the stomach. She was like 90 and depressed. {I'm sure that the mix of anti depressant drugs doctors had her on were a huge contributor.}

If a person wants to kill other or themselves they will find a way.

People had no trouble doing this long before the invention of firearms.


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

I just got done watching Dr DRew talking about this for an hour, having not read all of these posts , maybe this was addressed..... he was into "*The SECRET*" (new age positive thinking).. I really don't know anything about this.. but found this on you tube explaining it a bit... (a naysayer -I would surely agree with what he says on this clip personally)... What is the Secret

Also he was obsessed with winning the lottery -also mix in Pornography, Aspergers diagnosis...entitlement attitude, they spoke of narcissism, he was awkward, socially didn't fit in... somewhere in that 100 + page manifesto, he called himself "Glorious"...even a "GOD".... he had obvious *delusions of grandeur*...

Been in therapy all his life (since 8 yrs old I heard) ...but never hospitalized, so why no red flags getting guns (what a shame)..the cops seemed to drop the ball on not looking further in his apartment (maybe they didn't have the whole story, breakdown of communication right there)...or this could have all been prevented.. 

They had a friend on there who , as soon as the news broke -he KNEW it was him.. he didn't open up to everyone about his anger , but with those close to him, he talked about it all the time..the unfairness... the Privacy rights for the mentally ill was addressed...much of the problem here ... (so I feel anyway)... 

On Dr Drew's panel...everyone gave their take.. from the parents not taking enough interest ..why was he allowed to attend College 2 hrs away -no one in his life.... some blamed the Police...some felt the highly functioning Aspergers diagnosis ( not generally dangerous) -so they didn't look further.. or consider he could have been Schizophrenic....given the delusions of grandeur....

Can we ever stop these things ...not until we care to take mental illness more seriously and these people loose some rights.. that's my feelings on it.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Didn't he blame the massacre on virtually everyone? I mean, I read he wrote a 150 page document. Hello nuts. No debating that. He did seem to think of himself as very respectful and gentlemanly though - and I'd bet even that came off really creepy because he was crazy.


He names certain people as being the major catalyst from what I understand. I have not read every word of his manifesto, but I did see certain people named.

In his mind he was respectful and gentlemanly. I watched his videos. There is no way I'm taking his word that he was actually respectful and gentlemanly. None of that showed in the videos.


----------



## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> People had no trouble doing this long before the invention of firearms.


Get serious. Prior to 1500, and the invention of the wheelock pistol, no one had ever been murdered.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Machiavelli said:


> Get serious. Prior to 1500, and the invention of the wheelock pistol, no one had ever been murdered.


Yea no one was ever murdered... it's those guns you know.


----------



## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

> But, when a mentally ill person starts making lists of the people they intend to kill and talking/writing about how they are going to do it... it has to be taken seriously.


I can tell you that as a teacher, I once reported a student who was making threats about a hit list, talking about what times of day had the most people concentrated in the smallest spaces, etc, etc. Some of the other students were literally scared $h!tless to upset this guy lest he follow through. 

When I reported this to higher-ups, I was waved off as trying to make the school look bad, "over-reacting" and all kinds of other things. I was asked not to talk about the incident or say anything to anyone as it was "overzealous and unnecessary."


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Starstarfish said:


> I can tell you that as a teacher, I once reported a student who was making threats about a hit list, talking about what times of day had the most people concentrated in the smallest spaces, etc, etc. Some of the other students were literally scared $h!tless to upset this guy lest he follow through.
> 
> When I reported this to higher-ups, I was waved off as trying to make the school look bad, "over-reacting" and all kinds of other things. I was asked not to talk about the incident or say anything to anyone as it was "overzealous and unnecessary."


*That is total BS, Starstarfish! Your administrators needed to have their a$$es kicked!*


----------



## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Starstarfish said:


> I can tell you that as a teacher, I once reported a student who was making threats about a hit list, talking about what times of day had the most people concentrated in the smallest spaces, etc, etc. Some of the other students were literally scared $h!tless to upset this guy lest he follow through.
> 
> When I reported this to higher-ups, I was waved off as trying to make the school look bad, "over-reacting" and all kinds of other things. I was asked not to talk about the incident or say anything to anyone as it was "overzealous and unnecessary."


Sounds like the plot of Jaws.


----------



## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

Except minus the dead-pan jokes by Richard Dreyfus. 

But yes, this happened years ago when I was student teaching but, when I see things like this recent event on TV it makes me think about it and wonder where that kid and if he's still thinking like that.


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

soccermom2three said:


> You mention unearned self esteem. My husband and I were talking about this today when we were watching this story on the news. This "thing" that has permeated society that everybody wins and everyone gets a trophy even if they suck. OMG if you tell someone they're not good at something!
> 
> My husband sees this every day at work. He's a firefighter he says the guys that come on job that are 20+ years younger need constant praise and recognition. Just for doing their job! They will even contact HR to complain. They feel entitled to it.
> 
> While this is only one aspect in this guy's mental problems, I think unearned self esteem is really starting to bite us in the butt. When did this all start? In the 80's?


Oh man, don't get me started on this...

I make absolutely sure to tell my stepkids when they suck at something (not in a mean way, of course) and also praise them when they're good.

In fact, I've had conversations with both of them, letting them know exactly why their mother and I don't always praise them for everything they do, and also tell them when they're lacking and to pick up their game a bit.

The oldest plays football, and not all that well. He could be all right, but the effort isn't there - no heart, and he's afraid of hurting someone. I've told him straight up that he doesn't HAVE to be good, it's all in how hard you try, not to mention that you have your teammates counting on you.

Hell, when one of the kids comes home with a trophy or medal just for participating in something, we downplay it, and ask if they think they earned it.

Back in my day (lol) trophies were earned, as was praise, allowance, rewards, etc. In fact, this sort of thing started creeping into my high school when I was just about done. They started giving out awards to students who didn't miss a day of school. "Congratulations, you have a great immune system and nobody in your family died this year!"

I see so many parents nowadays giving praise for... nothing.


----------



## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

This guy's story reminds me so much of a poster on another relationship site a few years back. He had the same narcissistic / egocentric sense of entitlement about the girls in his college, and was forever bemoaning the fact that they only liked "cute boys" and how shallow they were for not liking him, just because he wasn't "cute". He used to post _incessantly_ about how "unfair" it was that he'd seen some girl or other, but she was "too stuck up" to return his smile... Probably just a coincidence, but he also identified himself as having Asian looks and being of small stature.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Cosmos said:


> This guy's story reminds me so much of a poster on another relationship site a few years back. He had the same narcissistic / egocentric sense of entitlement about the girls in his college, and was forever bemoaning the fact that they only liked "cute boys" and how shallow they were for not liking him, just because he wasn't "cute". He used to post _incessantly_ about how "unfair" it was that he'd seen some girl or other, but she was "too stuck up" to return his smile... Probably just a coincidence, but he also identified himself as having Asian looks and being of small stature.


As I read though this I was thinking maybe it was Elliot Rogers.:scratchhead:


----------



## delirium (Apr 23, 2012)




----------



## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

ntamph said:


> Read: Shooter Elliot Rodger said he was ‘the good guy’ in manifesto, ‘My Twisted World’
> 
> I've also read that he frequented MRA forums and such and that his rants were so bad that they were flagged and sometimes removed (which is saying a lot). He seems like a spoiled kid who never had to work. Any thoughts?


Haven't read other replies yet. (Took forever just to read the guy's manifesto!) Great example of a Narcissistic Personality Disorder that has all seven traits.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> Yea no one was ever murdered... it's those guns you know.


You know this kind of non-logic really irritates me. Comparing individual murder, premeditated murder, to the mass killing by lunatics with some imagined grudge makes no sense.

When I picture Columbine or Shady Hook, and I ask myself if the perps went in with a knife instead of gun, how many people who are dead today would be alive today? If only the lunatic did not have access to firearms.

If you think that if they really wanted to they would have found a way to kill all those people, then you are nuts. We NEED to do a better job keeping firearms out of the hands of mentally ill young people. Duh.


----------



## Omego (Apr 17, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> You know this kind of non-logic really irritates me. Comparing individual murder, premeditated murder, to the mass killing by lunatics with some imagined grudge makes no sense.
> 
> When I picture Columbine or Shady Hook, and I ask myself if the perps went in with a knife instead of gun, how many people who are dead today would be alive today? If only the lunatic did not have access to firearms.
> 
> If you think that if they really wanted to they would have found a way to kill all those people, then you are nuts. We NEED to do a better job keeping firearms out of the hands of mentally ill young people. Duh.


:iagree::iagree: You said it better than I did. If the legislation pointed out by Machiavelli in another post is not sufficient, well then other steps need to be taken.


----------



## Omego (Apr 17, 2013)

Machiavelli said:


> All these guys conform to a very similar profile. There are quite a few of them out there. Since this guy generated a fan following overnight (from girls) you can bet copy cats are already planning how to top him. The fingers are already flying on the keyboards as they compose their "manifestos." They see this heavy coverage as acclaim for achievement.


This is a terrible scenario. Let's wait and see what actions will be taken over the next few months. Something is going to have to give.


----------



## Omego (Apr 17, 2013)

alexm said:


> I see so many parents nowadays giving praise for... nothing.


:iagree::iagree: 

Unfortunately, I don't know how to multi-quote so I keep posting. This is very true. I've had this discussion with a lot of other parents my age (mid-40s) and it's hard to pinpoint what changed between the generations because there are so many factors to consider. As an example, back in the day, you didn't just get an allowance. You had to DO something to get it.


----------



## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> As I read though this I was thinking maybe it was Elliot Rogers.:scratchhead:


I popped over to that site and searched for his username. From what I could determine he'd been banned several times but kept reappearing with one username after another. It would appear that he (or one of his many incarnations) stopped posting there about a year ago.

Will do some more sleuthing!


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Omego said:


> :iagree::iagree:
> 
> Unfortunately, I don't know how to multi-quote so I keep posting. This is very true. I've had this discussion with a lot of other parents my age (mid-40s) and it's hard to pinpoint what changed between the generations because there are so many factors to consider. As an example, back in the day, you didn't just get an allowance. You had to DO something to get it.


The issue of self esteem is a bit bigger than people have really touched on in this thread. And praise is not a developer of SELF esteem. Self esteem is based on a recognition of ones own worth. It does not come from being good at something or being told you are good at something. It comes from feeling capable, full of integrity and intrinsic self worth. When a person feels like that, praise can give a little boost. But praise can never rocket SELF esteem. But also failure cannot destroy real self esteem. Self esteem is the very crux of if first you don't succeed, try try again.


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Omego said:


> :iagree::iagree:
> 
> Unfortunately, I don't know how to multi-quote so I keep posting. This is very true. I've had this discussion with a lot of other parents my age (mid-40s) and it's hard to pinpoint what changed between the generations because there are so many factors to consider. As an example, back in the day, you didn't just get an allowance. You had to DO something to get it.


I think it's a combination of things, imo.

The kids who grew up in the mid-late 80's and beyond no longer had to leave the house to entertain themselves. The rise of video games and explosion of channels to watch on TV (and later on, the internet) meant that kids no longer went out in the real world with their friends and had adventures. Or just sat on the porch shooting the ****.

Kids used to be able to determine their hierarchical status within their group by seeing who can climb a tree better, or who's the faster runner. Things that were visible and earned. The kid who gets picked last for the pick up baseball game no longer exists. Everybody's on equal footing now.

As funny as it sounds, we parents have shot ourselves in the foot with this. It used to be that if you were unpopular or unathletic, you learned to live with it, and you solved your own problems. Your parents didn't go to the school and complain that little Timmy is feeling excluded. You told little Timmy that that was life and to suck it up and find something he was good at.

When I was playing high level minor hockey, the kids that were good, and earned it, got most of the ice time. The kids that weren't as good, sat on the bench and got a few shifts per game, and maybe earned more shifts if they played well. There was a starting goalie, and a back up goalie. The back up played one out of every 4 or 5 games, unless the starter was on a roll. Now, everybody on the team gets equal ice time, regardless. Goalies alternate games so they each play as much as the other. And who's to blame? Parents who complain that their son or daughter doesn't get to play as much as the next kid. This takes away the roles kids play, especially in sports. This says to them "you're just as valuable as everybody else" - which isn't true. Once they get into the work world, they wonder why Joe Blow makes more than they do, despite having the same job description and seniority. They can't fathom that Joe Blow is better and more valuable to the company than they are.

Even the school system has changed, in terms of making everything so PC and inclusive. It's fine on paper, and in theory, but when kids are introduced to the real world after high school or college, they have no idea what it's like to be competitive and/or to actually earn something. They expect this same treatment in the work world - praise just for showing up and doing your job. Expectations of promotions and raises. etc. They are thoroughly unprepared for the realities of life by the time they hit 18 or 19.

Hell, I was a competitive swimmer and I played a high level of hockey growing up. My kids, 13 and 9, already have almost as many medals and trophies as I did by the time I was 18. What message does that send?


----------



## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> When I picture Columbine or Shady Hook, and I ask myself if the perps went in with a knife instead of gun, how many people who are dead today would be alive today? If only the lunatic did not have access to firearms..


Ask the 49 people who were stabbed to death on a train platform in China 3 weeks ago.


----------



## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Omego said:


> :iagree::iagree: You said it better than I did. If the legislation pointed out by Machiavelli in another post is not sufficient, well then other steps need to be taken.


What have you got in mind?


----------



## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> The issue of self esteem is a bit bigger than people have really touched on in this thread. And praise is not a developer of SELF esteem. Self esteem is based on a recognition of ones own worth. It does not come from being good at something or being told you are good at something. It comes from feeling capable, full of integrity and intrinsic self worth. When a person feels like that, praise can give a little boost. But praise can never rocket SELF esteem. But also failure cannot destroy real self esteem. Self esteem is the very crux of if first you don't succeed, try try again.


This. While I understand where the argument against praise for nothing comes from, its a double edged sword - someone who has had it beat into them that they're only valued for accomplishment has a coming reckoning if they fail to live up to expectations.

With my children, I opt to praise effort more than accomplishment. IMO, striving to get there is more important than getting there - so yeah, I'm still a fan of trophies for participation and celebrating the season - because even if you never won a game you still played, put out effort and you never quit. Do that enough, and I think success takes care of itself.


----------



## EasyPartner (Apr 7, 2014)

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> This. While I understand where the argument against praise for nothing comes from, its a double edged sword - someone who has had it beat into them that they're only valued for accomplishment has a coming reckoning if they fail to live up to expectations.
> 
> With my children, I opt to praise effort more than accomplishment. IMO, striving to get there is more important than getting there - so yeah, I'm still a fan of trophies for participation and celebrating the season - because even if you never won a game you still played, put out effort and you never quit. Do that enough, and I think success takes care of itself.


:iagree: and very well put dvls.

I don't buy the whole "it was better in the old days when kids knew their hierarchical status and if it was low (because other kids were better at hockey fgs), well, they just had to suck it up".

Beg your pardon Alex but I think it's that attitude is a contributing factor to this kind of dramas that seem to be recurrent in the US.

This guy had obviously more than one issue though.


----------



## Omego (Apr 17, 2013)

Machiavelli said:


> What have you got in mind?


**** donning flameproof suit *****


I don't have enough stats, data or facts to provide a truly pertinent and complete response. But some ideas:

To reduce the risk of random mass shootings (if I am not mistaken, all recent such crimes were committed with semi-automatic firearms?)

- Better profiling of potential risks and modifying current legislation in order to limit the purchase of this type of weapon by individuals who fit the profile?

I'm not saying that crimes cannot be committed using other weapons, I'm talking about reducing the risk of random mass shootings. Note that I did not mention handguns or rifles.


----------

