# if ex H is NPD should I minimise access to kids



## tripad (Apr 18, 2014)

Hi to all with children, divorced n with NPD ( my opinion, not diagnosed) ex,

Should I minimise ex H access to kids age 8 n 11 ? 

Background summary, ex n his family are compulsive spenders n liars n gotten in debts repeatedly. I had to bail my ex out of debts, each time emptying my bank account completely n promising to be a good dad n husband. Also, my ex hits me when I asked about money matter, once he pushed me while I was heavily pregnant. the last straw was when he hits me in front of my children, in the name of getting me to stop asking about money n drunkenness. As such, he barely pays for bills n I pay 80% of bills. Another problem, I discovered he's addicted to porn, n once he carelessly pass his Hp to kids n my then 5 yr old boy retrieve porn when he pressed on history button. 

In the past, as a family, he doesn't help out with children. Occasionally swim with children. Mostly he's into his own work n sports n drinks session. 

Now upon divorce, he is only getting Saturday full day visit. He's requesting for extra weekday n Friday sleepover till Saturday night to return kids to me. 

I don't agree as he's sharing apartment with a couple whom I don't know n I can't trust my ex to watch over children. n kids are not wanting to sleep over anyway. Weekday dinner I can relent on that if I want to. But frankly kids know that the father is not paying much, n borrowed n not returned my money so it's as good as stealing my money, n kids saw him hit me. N I gave my kids the honest truth when they questioned me on such issues surrounding why dad had hit mum. So kids are angry with dad as the cause of destroying the family n doesn't care much for him as time past, even though they are happy enough to see him on Saturday as my ex will out of guilt now, indulge them unnecessarily. 

1) So should i encourage my kids to love the dad like before, having read on effects on divorce effects on kids. 

2) should I allow extra weekday night visit

3) should I encourage Friday sleepover 

4) given the history, that he doesn't bother with the children when we r a family N during early separation. I wonder why he suddenly love spending time with the children. i am thinking that my ex may have an affair but he was dumped now that he's available. Or that now he realised that one day he will get old n he needs his children as a future meal ticket, just like how his own parents bankrupt him to spend n splurge. For this reason, I am fearful that my ex will lie n borrow n steal from my children when they are adults. I don't want my children to suffer the same fate as I have from my ex. 

5) am I emotionally abusing my children when I told them the truth when they asked. 

6) Am I emotionally abusing them when I prepare them for the future? in case something happens to me, I have prepare my will n made financial planning for them, such that my ex will never get to touch the money. Also I educate them that when they are adults, if I m not around for them, they must only use the money for certain purposes, n never to trust n let the father touch their money.


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## mjalex (Mar 5, 2015)

It's a tricky situation for sure, though make sure that you don't influence the childrens' emotions of your ex just because you don't wish to support him. That's up to your kids to make up their own minds.

Your ex is still a father, and he has a right to see his children. Do you have proof that he will be incapable of handling them with proper care? If not, I'd let your kids try it out and see what they think. If they enjoy it, it's a go. If they're uncomfortable around their father, perhaps it's best to work something out where they don't have to spend as much time with him.

I'm sorry you're going through this situation.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Do you have 100% custody? Or has that been settled yet? How did he end up with such a small amount of visitation.

It's often not a good idea to let the children decide how much they see on parent or the other. If the children feel that the decision is theirs they can be manipulated by a parent who guilt trips the children into choosing them and not the other parent. Or children often will use it to manipulate parents... telling each parent that they want to be with them so that they parent feels special and gives them more attention. Either case leads to problems for everyone.

It's good to get their input. But you make the decision.

Maybe start with one more night a month. See how that goes. Add days/nights slowly. See if he continues to have the interest and if the children are doing ok with spending more time with him.

Talk to them, without bad mouthing their father. Let them know that it's ok to love him. But also teach them how to set boundaries and protect themselves.

You don't have to tell them for example that you are afraid that they will look to them as a financial course. Instead, over the years of raising them you can teach them that they are responsible for their own financial wellbeing as adults and not yours or their fathers.


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## tripad (Apr 18, 2014)

Joint custody but he works office hours so he wanted one week night n Friday night sleep over till sat evening. But kids didn't want. 

During separation, he disappeared for one month. Kids were angry n disappointed. I was pissed. After that, there were times that he didn't turn up last minute. 

Now, he stabilise in Saturday visitation routine N took effort to entertain the kids. 

I never found out why as my ex goes from avoiding me physically to texting me, then to avoiding even my text, n now not even texting the kids after the kids didn't respond enough to him.


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## tripad (Apr 18, 2014)

So he ended up with just that sat day visit.


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## tripad (Apr 18, 2014)

EleGirl

I understand what you mean that to tell them they can love him but to know n set their boundaries. 

But from first hand experience, they will be vulnerable to my ex, being their father, if they were to love him.

Maybe they are better off to know that he may exploit them?


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

They need to understand that their father is not a mentally healthy person, and that should be done with a child therapist. They will learn from him unfortunately, but you and a therapist can teach them that this is not normal healthy behavior.


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## tripad (Apr 18, 2014)

What will they learn from him??? 

My fear......


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

I think it’s great that you are doing your best and struggling with right and wrong – that really shows you are trying to put your children first.

My ex WAS diagnosed with NPD and I have done a LOT of research on the impact of an NPD parent on the children.

1) Yes, you should encourage your kids to love their Dad. He is imperfect as we all are. They are getting to the age where they can understand that. They may be hurt by him occasionally but it’s natural for children to love parents; even abusive ones. 

2) & 3) However, limiting exposure to a NPD parent is important. NPDs can be very emotionally destructive to a child’s self esteem. Children will try to impress him and win his love and will often only get criticism in return unless the parrot him. This makes them loose faith in their own perception of things so limiting exposure is good. Don’t cut him out but don’t let him hurt them more than he likely already has.

4) There are a number of reasons an NPD parent suddenly becomes more involved. It could be he’s seeing someone new and wants to impress them with what a good father he is. NPDs don’t truly love so having the kids more often will only serve a purpose. It could be to make him feel needed, important, to feed his narcissism, to impress a new woman or colleagues or even those he lives with. It could be that he senses he will need them in the future. But whatever his reason, it is just that – a reason, not love.

5) I’m glad you are concerned about that. From everything I’ve read, truth is fine as long as you stick to the facts and tell them in a gentle, age appropriate manner that isn’t destructive to the children. You can tell the truth but maybe add that you don’t think their father has a lot of self control but he is still their father and should be treated as such. As long as your focus is on an open and honest relationship and your intent is not to hurt your ex and you keep the answers age appropriate and factual (instead of calling him names or saying he’s mean, etc.) you are fine.

6) I do think children that age should not have to worry about life without you. Odds are probably that you’ll live until they are adults, right? (My apologies if you have a health issue.) I would say instead you should have a plan for your money and maybe a letter for them regarding your wishes and whatever way you can protect them legally with the laws in your country.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

tripad said:


> What will they learn from him???
> 
> My fear......


Well if they are smart they will learn what NOT to do with money. And they will learn from you what TO do with money. The same can be said for relationships - you will demonstrate how to love and be kind and he will demonstrate how to use people. They will see what kind of people they want to be. Don't forget friends and other relatives will also have a strong impact.


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## tripad (Apr 18, 2014)

Doesn't sound great 

But it's the brutal truth nevertheless 

Thank goodness the children are smart. 

I do tell them that dad is a bad example N to follow my better example, but I told them I m not perfect either, but just doing my best for them, us. Tog with them, most nights I pray for wisdom to be a mum amongst other thgs. 

Told them that's the dad but they have to know what has happened n to be aware. 

When I m left alone with no reliable SO, I told them I m not dying, of good health, but life is fragile . I m being pragmatic. Don't want them to be caught not knowing. Letter can be lost or confiscated. I have the fear that if I m gone, my ex n his family will flock over n " adopt " my kids so they can cheat them when they are young adults. 

At times, I lose it n do tell the kids the facts more angrily than I should. But names calling, no. Just facts. 

Sigh. My poor kids grow up overnight. 

Tried to shield them from all these. But when my ex hits me in front of the, there's no way I can go on. I think it's better to grow up in a divorce family n with a bad example of a dad,  than to grow up to witness DV n to be abusers themselves. I told them the hard truth, DV breaks a family, debts breaks a family, that they must never do that to their wives n kids. 

I m not perfect, some days I fail, lose my temper. Sigh, apologise to kids, ask for forgiveness n go on. N go sleepless myself.


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## tripad (Apr 18, 2014)

????

Not many people with similar experience??? 

Not receiving much advice here


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

I think that you should minimize your kids exposure to their father only if he abuses them or puts them in danger. Otherwise, you are not an objective judge of whether it's good for them to see him, and most likely it's better for them to have a relationship with him than not. And you shouldn't diagnose him yourself either.


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## tripad (Apr 18, 2014)

Counsellor mention he has personality disorder n suggest him to see a psychiatrist. 
He refused. N said I'm the mad one.


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## tripad (Apr 18, 2014)

They have a relationship with him.

Just limited.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

True NPD is not a learned behavior, and is not fixable, so in that regard, the kids will not develop NPD simply from being around him. They may indeed pick up some less than desirable behaviors, but they will still have the empathy that a true Narc is missing.

My ex wife is diagnosed NPD and has physical custody of the kids aged 17 and 13. I have them every other weekend. Everything is fine with my youngest, but my 17 year old is still not talking to me. Unfortunately, I have seen many terrifying signs that she may be NPD as well. It was very rough going for a while with my 19 year old, but he has really come around and is seeing things for what they are through more adult eyes.


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## cons (Aug 13, 2013)

I agree with JohnLee....

My ex definitely has some strong narcissistic traits (much of which contributed to the dissolution of our marriage)...

We share custody 50:50

While I see some of my ex's decisions regarding our kid's to be more self-serving than having the best interest of the kids in mind, it is not my place to block him from (or my kids) from having a relationship. 

All I can do is parent effectively on my end and be the best mom I can be to my kids. 

I found the need for minimizing contact was between my ex and myself. So we communicate by email regarding kid stuff. We do parallel parenting... this allows a very low level of conflict in the kids' lives and they can not be deprived of either their mom or their dad.


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## tripad (Apr 18, 2014)

Sam

I though I read that NPD is ingrained from young. 

My counsellor mentioned that my ex may be that due to neglected childhood. 

Why is your 17 yr old not talking to u? 

Could she learn it from your ex?


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## tripad (Apr 18, 2014)

Cons

I limited it. Kids didn't want it. 

I suppose the only way my ex could have more visit is if I allow it n I promote it to my kids. 

He's very self serving. On one visit, he took my children for his hair cut. I wrote to him that he has other six days to deal with himself, so he should have spend that one day doing things with n for the kids. 

He wrote back that I m scolding him As always!


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

tripad said:


> Sam
> 
> I though I read that NPD is ingrained from young.
> 
> ...


Narc behaviors can be learned, but the behaviors are more a symptom than the actual problem. It is a fine line. The learned behaviors can be corrected with therapy and life experience, if the person possesses empathy and desire to correct things. That is the crucial difference between and extremely self centered immature person, and a true Narcissist. The Narcissist does not possess empathy, does not have the ability to self correct, as they truly, all the way to their core, do not know that they are doing, behaving, acting wrong. They truly can't help it because it truly is who they are, and they simply can't see anything wrong with them selves. Anyone who has dealt with a true, diagnosed NPD person knows the evil they are dealing with, and can tell pretty quickly if someone else is just highly self centered. It is absolutely mind blowing, almost inconceivable to those who don't have the experience.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

tripad said:


> Cons
> 
> I limited it. Kids didn't want it.
> 
> ...


To be completely honest...he's right. You need to mind your own business on things like that. It's not your place to dictate how he spends his time with them as long as they are safe.


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## cons (Aug 13, 2013)

I agree with Sam...

I had found out through my kids that my ex left them alone at the cabin (mind you, they are old enough to be alone) to go to the casino. My first thought was "He has 50% of the time to do this on his own...why waste the time with the kids to go off and do this?"

But, I keep this to myself. I don't say anything to the kids about what I think. I just enjoy my time with them.

If the kids were in danger or something to that effect...THAT is when I would step in.


Just be the parent to your kids you want to be... Help them see a healthy adult by your actions.


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## tripad (Apr 18, 2014)

samyeagar said:


> To be completely honest...he's right. You need to mind your own business on things like that. It's not your place to dictate how he spends his time with them as long as they are safe.


well, I see my kids biz as my biz . though I understand what you are saying .


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

I went through the same crap with my ex wife trying to micromanage my time and parenting. She is not capable of coparenting, so after the judge finally told her to mind her own business and quit wasting the courts time, I began to parallel parent and ignore her.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

tripad said:


> well, I see my kids biz as my biz . though I understand what you are saying .


Your business with your kids is your business. Their father and his parenting is no longer your concern...you lost that right in return for not being with him any more...that's the beauty of divorce


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## tripad (Apr 18, 2014)

samyeagar said:


> Your business with your kids is your business. Their father and his parenting is no longer your concern...you lost that right in return for not being with him any more...that's the beauty of divorce


I don't see that as co parenting .

co parenting should be parenting together with both inputs . although in my case , my ex prob wont have any input , since I am the pretty hands on-all for the kids kind of mum .


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

The reality is that you already chose to involve this man in your children's lives by having children with him. You can't really unmake that choice now.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

tripad said:


> I don't see that as co parenting .
> 
> co parenting should be parenting together with both inputs . although in my case , my ex prob wont have any input , since I am the pretty hands on-all for the kids kind of mum .


What you described about what you said is not coparenting either. It is dictating. You no longer have the right to provide input into his parenting unless the kids health or safety is at risk. He can listen to what you have to say, but is under no obligation to consider it. And likewise, you can do the same to him.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

samyeagar said:


> Your business with your kids is your business. Their father and his parenting is no longer your concern...you lost that right in return for not being with him any more...that's the beauty of divorce


I'm with samy on this. By separating (and/or divorcing) you lose the right to tell your spouse how they should parent, spend their money, or otherwise live their lives. If they wreck their relationship with the kids, that's on them. You can try to talk to the kids and help them understand, you can get them into counselling, but you probably can't force your spouse to be a better parent or restrict their time with the kids unless you can get a court backed agreement.

Your best hope (and frankly, most likely path anyways) is that he'll lose interest in spending time with the kids. Especially if he and them aren't enjoying their time together. Because your next option is an expensive legal fight to get an arrangement more favourable to. But as far as you making a unilateral decision to cut his time? That could backfire on you big time. 

C


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

Your ex does not have a professional diagnosis. You are not able to diagnose him.

You do not have the right to withhold your ex's children from him, nor dictate what he does during the time that he has them. My husbands ex wife tries this sometimes and it drives us nuts - we deliberately do the exact opposite of what she dictates. Unless the child is unsafe when she's with us (she isn't), it's NONE of her mothers business what we do with our time.

It's divorce 101 that you NEVER EVER badmouth/disparage/criticise the other parent either to, or in front of the children. You need to cut that out now - that will backfire on you big time down the track. My husbands ex wife badmouths him to their daughter and I have now started to correct this when our daughter tells me what "mummy said". 

If you have genuine concerns, go back to court and do it legally, but you cannot use your (naturally) biased opinion of your ex as a reason to withhold his children. If you go to court, they may well order him to undergo a psychiatric evaluation, and he may be diagnosed with BPD, but until that happens you can't withhold the children from him.


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## tripad (Apr 18, 2014)

frusdil said:


> Your ex does not have a professional diagnosis. You are not able to diagnose him.
> 
> You do not have the right to withhold your ex's children from him, nor dictate what he does during the time that he has them. My husbands ex wife tries this sometimes and it drives us nuts - we deliberately do the exact opposite of what she dictates. Unless the child is unsafe when she's with us (she isn't), it's NONE of her mothers business what we do with our time.
> 
> ...


Not with held 

Kids Doesn't want to sleep over in his new place with other strangers in it.

I'm trying to suggest to my lawyer to allow him to enter my home, a familiar place to the kids, to sleep over, while I rather moved myself away to sleep over in my office. 

You sound very strOng on this bad mouthing thing due to your own experience so I've no idea what's btw you n your husband's ex. 

If you read my earlier post I mentioned I tell the truth factually, not name calling Or twisted truth. It's as per what is in the divorce papers. 

Frankly, if you are correcting your husband's kids on what her mum had said, I would view that as your husband's duty, not yours, whether her mum is right or wrong, it won't be your place. If I'm her mum, I would be upset with you.


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## tripad (Apr 18, 2014)

Frusdil

I said earlier counsellor said he's probably having a PD but he refused to see a psychiatrist. 

I didn't diagnose him.

I didn't " dictate ", I tell him, as he has "told " me what to do too, n I answered him accordingly.


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## tripad (Apr 18, 2014)

In fact, he badmouth me with false truth like accusing me of stealing the children's hand phone when they actually lost it. accusing me of not allowing them to call him when they actually didn't bother to. Accusing me of hiding their phone when they used up the phone money on games n didn't respond to him. he even accused me of abusing them n my helper physically . BLah blah blah. 

I have got these messages saved for future proof in case I need it. 

Told my kids to clarify truth with him. He didn't come back with apologies. 

So please those who says I dictate, I don't, I do tell, as he tells me too, n I answer. 

I think some of you are too sensitive, maybe the parties you deal with are really nut case, I.Don't know. 

Please remember the nut case here is my ex. Please read first post On what he did.


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## tripad (Apr 18, 2014)

Sigh 

Why am I explaining myself????


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## tripad (Apr 18, 2014)

PBear said:


> samyeagar said:
> 
> 
> > Your business with your kids is your business. Their father and his parenting is no longer your concern...you lost that right in return for not being with him any more...that's the beauty of divorce
> ...


As a mum, to tell me that I let my ex behave whatever he wants, n I have to deal with the damages caused by sending them for counselling is like telling me to stay myself repeatedly n go see a doctor. 

As advised by my guy friend single dad, n I think it's wise after pondering for weeks, it's that we need to move on n fogive each other for sale of kids. N hope to be amiable N function as parents like in a family. 

Honestly, I'm not there yet, trying to get my brains to arrive at that place. 

Also I don't wish my ex to lose interest in my kids. 

So legal fight then may be avoided.


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## tripad (Apr 18, 2014)

Time needed to heal n forgive


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

tripad said:


> Not with held
> 
> Kids Doesn't want to sleep over in his new place with other strangers in it.
> 
> ...


Kids shouldn't get to decide whether they see their other parents or not. Kids say stuff like that all the time. When you start enforcing a consequences that they don't like you'll get "I want to go to daddys"

A counsellor is not a doctor. Your ex does not have a proper BPD diagnosis. 

Neither you or your ex can tell each other what to do while the kids are with you. You don't have to explain or answer to him, nor he to you.

If my SD badmouths my husband (parroting her mother) and he isn't here to correct her, you can be darn sure that I will. He is my husband, she is my daughter, we are a family. I will address an issue then and there if need be.

Frankly, I couldn't give a stuff if her mother is upset with me - as I said before, what goes on in our home is NONE of her business. The same goes for us at her place.


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## tripad (Apr 18, 2014)

Kids don't entirely decide n get what they want if I don't think it's right. Thank god they are sensible, n I do explain n they do agree on what's best for them, like it or not. They have not, n I hope never will, use the I go to daddy's on me. 

Your way of working may suit you but it will not work for me. It's too cold n hard. 

I am not in a blended family I can't comment but I would think that I prefer my new partner to leave the disciplining of my children where it concerns my ex to me. N vice versa. 

Jus like I disagree with pre nuptials after reading all these posts here. 

Best if we can be cordial to our ex s. not sure if I can arrive at a forgive n forget state, since my ex n his family really borrowed a huge amount of my money n refused to pay back. the money is a few hundred thousands, almost my all. It's hard to forgive n forget a thieF. 

Today I manage to tell my ex to return my kids after half a day as they have exams to prep for. N I told him I'll give him both weekends next week in return.


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