# At wits end with my 5 year old.



## lalsr1988 (Apr 16, 2012)

My wife and I are at wits end with our 5 year old. He is the middle child. The other two have their moments also, but things that can be dealt with. He refuses to listen to anyone. We have tried spankings, we have tried time-outs, we have tried taking away his toys, all to no avail. He does what he wants when he wants. If we tell him no toys for a day, we will have to tell him every 5 minutes because he will continuously grab a toy. Then when we say "No toys, you're on punishment" He will cry saying that no one wants to be his friend. (He does this to everything and to everyone) We tell him to sit on the couch, every 5 minutes he gets up. I work an overnight job, and it is impossible to get any sleep because of his constant screaming and crying. He runs down the hall to our room screaming and banging on the door because he can't get what he wants. He refuses to listen when we tell him to do something. We have to repeat ourselves 7 or 8 times with our voices growing louder every time out of our frustration.

It's not just us. His teachers at school are frustrated with him, and when they hand him over to us they look like they are at their wits end and cannot wait to be rid of him for the day. He is rude and disrespectful to his teachers.

We dread the weekends. We dread the afternoons. We dread school holidays. Why? Because as soon as he comes home it's tempter tantrums, screaming and fighting. Nonstop.

We took him to a Child Counselor. Guess what, he behaved perfectly normal in front of her, so she looked at us like we were liars.

I know normally the Middle Child feels as if they get no attention, and I do try extra hard with him. I am constantly giving him hugs. Telling him i love him. When he has a temper tantrum, if anyone can soft-talk him down, it's me. I try to talk to him about obeying his parents, try to talk to him about respecting his elders. Idk if he is not listening, or if he doesn't get it.

During this writing I have had to first tell and then progressively raise my voice to him at least 10 times to sit down and or stop playing. He had his privileges taken away for being especially rude to his teachers yesterday.

I said in the beginning that I have tried spankings. I don't use them that often because we live in an apartment complex and I don't want anyone thinking we abuse him. Whenever I do spank him I only use my hand on his rear-end with 3 or 4 tiny swats. He will sometimes laugh when I do it.

My wife and I are at our wits end and don't know how to reach him. Help Please


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

"We took him to a Child Counselor. Guess what, he behaved perfectly normal in front of her, so she looked at us like we were liars."

I'd say if you have not tried it yet, try positive reinforcement. I'm thinking this is why he behaved. Also, is he very smart?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## justonelife (Jul 29, 2010)

Sounds somewhat like my 5 year old. We haven't figured it out either.

First of all, I would say that trying to take away all toys for an entire day or make him sit on the couch for an entire day is totally not reasonable for any 5 year old. That's just setting yourself up for failure. Time outs should be no more than 5 minutes at his age. Taking away toys might be taking away toys for a little while or taking away an especially favorite toy for a day but letting him play with others.

Also try turning it around with positive reinforcement. Try to make a chart for "no yelling" for one day and then give him a small reward. Maybe a bigger reward for going a few days, etc.

As for the counselor, I'd find someone else willing to listen to you. No kid is going to show his "dark side" to a stranger in one meeting and any counselor would know that. They should take the parent's report seriously, especially since you have 2 other kids. You know what's "normal" kid behavior and what is not. Can you get the teachers to write a report detailing his behavior? That might be more compelling to a counselor.


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## LoveBeingFemale (Nov 5, 2012)

Have you had your son evaluated through the school district to see if he might qualify for service? You could also have him evaluate by a developmental pediatrician. How is his speech? How is his eye contact?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

You are expecting a 5 year old to not play all day for punishment? That’s near impossible. Time out is one minute per year of the child’s age.

He is misbehaving because it’s how he gets attention. 

Get a nanny cam and video what is going on in your home. Video who all family members act/behave, not just him. Then show this is a counselor.


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## lalsr1988 (Apr 16, 2012)

Idk where you all are getting "time out is one minute per year". I used to get time out quite a lot and I would sit still and behave. The rule for me and my siblings was for something minor, you get up as soon as you sit still for a half an hour or so. I remember getting all day couch time for talking back ect and I would just sit quiet so I wouldn't get it the next day also...5 minutes of time out is a joke...especially when it takes half an hour just to get him to sit down. I rarely do the all day thing, only when he severely misbehaves as he did in school yesterday. His whole class couldn't do their agenda for the day because of his behavior. Most of his time outs are a half hour or so also


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

Children have short attention span, that's why you do the minute per age. No all children respond the same to dicipline. 

I asked earlier is he very smart? Children who are smarter than average may misbehave the way you are describing, or he could be struggling with something like ADHD or autism. Don't give up on one counsler.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

lalsr1988 said:


> Idk where you all are getting "time out is one minute per year". I used to get time out quite a lot and I would sit still and behave. The rule for me and my siblings was for something minor, you get up as soon as you sit still for a half an hour or so. I remember getting all day couch time for talking back ect and I would just sit quiet so I wouldn't get it the next day also...5 minutes of time out is a joke...especially when it takes half an hour just to get him to sit down. I rarely do the all day thing, only when he severely misbehaves as he did in school yesterday. His whole class couldn't do their agenda for the day because of his behavior. Most of his time outs are a half hour or so also


What worked on you is not working on your child. That's the point here. Each child is different.


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## lalsr1988 (Apr 16, 2012)

mablenc said:


> Children have short attention span, that's why you do the minute per age. No all children respond the same to dicipline.
> 
> I asked earlier is he very smart? Children who are smarter than average may misbehave the way you are describing, or he could be struggling with something like ADHD or autism. Don't give up on one counsler.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No I wouldn't say he is very smart. The youngest seems to have that advantage. My middle son was a late talker and is only now allowing himself to be understood properly, and even so, I constantly correct him on his pronunciation and sentence structure.

I will try the Positive Reinforcement. I will also see if I can find another counselor.


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

lalsr1988 said:


> No I wouldn't say he is very smart. The youngest seems to have that advantage. My middle son was a late talker and is only now allowing himself to be understood properly, and even so, I constantly correct him on his pronunciation and sentence structure.
> 
> I will try the Positive Reinforcement. I will also see if I can find another counselor.


Have you had him screen for autism? Or has anyone suggests speech therapy? Children sense any difference in them maybe he's self esteem is being affected.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

lalsr1988 said:


> No I wouldn't say he is very smart. The youngest seems to have that advantage. My middle son was a late talker and is only now allowing himself to be understood properly, and even so, I constantly correct him on his pronunciation and sentence structure.
> 
> I will try the Positive Reinforcement. I will also see if I can find another counselor.


Being a late talker is not a sign of lack of intelligence. Some of the most intelligent people have things that we call learning disabilities like dyslexia, etc.

It sounds to me like your son is frustrated. He's different than the others in his family and no one gets him. He needs positive reinforcement. He's most likely acting out because he's learned that this is how he gets attention.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

MissFroggie said:


> Einstein didn't speak until he was 4 apparently...he was smart enough to know he could get everything he needed/wanted without the effort of speaking


Often, when a child has an older sibling who will do all the talking for them, they just see no need to talk. Seems to me that this is very smart thing to do.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I have a son who is 24 years old today and is graduating in Dec. with a degree in physics and math. He's entering PHD program in January.

When he was young, I tried time out with him. But he knew that I would not do anything to hurt him, so he just blew it off. He would even chuckle at the idea.

A counselor told me to reverse the lock on his bedroom door and strip down the room. Then I'd put him in there for time out and lock the door from the outside. I had to sit there because it's very uncool to leave a child unsupervised in a locked room. But that got his attention. Why? Because when he was in a cleared out room, with only his bed, he got the idea that he was finally in time out and I could do something about it. I only did his for one minute for each year of his age. It worked.

Raising a kid who is like this is a challenge. But your son is not a bad person. He's just different.


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## Sbrown (Jul 29, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> I have a son who is 24 years old today and is graduating in Dec. with a degree in physics and math. He's entering PHD program in January.
> 
> When he was young, I tried time out with him. But he knew that I would not do anything to hurt him, so he just blew it off. He would even chuckle at the idea.
> 
> ...


My wife and I left our video baby monitor up just for such occasions as this! That way we can supervise without sitting by the door. When he throws these tantrums have you tried ignoring them? I've seen that work with my 2 1/2 yo son. (He started tantrums at 9 mos old, my wife and I was in shock the first time he refused to take a nap in his "pack n play" he threw himself down and kicked his feet, it was all I could do to choke back the laughter.) He gets time outs in his bed room and hates them. As a middle child I can tell you it sucks, he's not the "big kid" he's not the "baby" anymore he's stuck in the middle. My mom "tried" to make me feel included and important, but it always seemed like she had to try to do it, where it just came natural for the other two. This is why my wife and I only have one. I told the dr, doing my v, that I want to have a favorite and I don't want to feel guilty about it. All parents have favorites (most will deny it lol) it is human nature. Most dads favor the oldest and
Moms favor the youngest ime. You're gonna have your hands full with this one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

My son started his tantrums at about 2. they were quite dramatic. 

What I found is that tantrums need an audience. So when he started one I'd just leave the room. He'd stop his tantrum. Then after a bit he'd pick himself up off the floor and follow me to the other room, throw him self on the floor again and start the tantrum again. And I would up and leave again.

Finally I got to the point of just saying to him that "No one wants to play with a boy is throwing a tantrum." And walk a way. That was when he learned that tantrums did not have the payoff he was looking for. 

I also made sure that there was plenty of positive rewards for good behavior.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

I suspect he's in a pattern that he can't break and he needs your help to do so. It is unlikely that he wants to be bad, but that seems to garner a lot of attention so he keeps it up. And that has now become the established interaction between him and others. 

He needs an opportunity to do the right thing, to feel good about himself. And with one opportunity, he will see that he's capable of something else. It will also let you stop seeing him in a negative light, which I'm not sure you do, but I can tell you from personal experience that it's easy to do especially when you dread your time with him. 

He needs to know he is lovable. 

As for his bad behavior, I suggest letting the natural consequences play out whenever possible. If he refuses to wear his coat, let him be cold all day (just an example). By punishing him so severely, you are being the bad guy and instead of thinking about what he did that was wrong, he will sit there stewing about how unfair you are, how mean you are, etc. In short, he won't learn from punishment.


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## ladybird (Jun 16, 2010)

lalsr1988 said:


> No I wouldn't say he is very smart. The youngest seems to have that advantage. My middle son was a late talker and is only now allowing himself to be understood properly, and even so, I constantly correct him on his pronunciation and sentence structure.
> 
> I will try the Positive Reinforcement. I will also see if I can find another counselor.


 Just because he was a late talker and has speech issues doesn't mean that he isn't intelligent. My son whom was a late talker and he is now in speech therapy twice a week, is very,very intelligent 4 year old.

My son used to act out a lot, because he would get frustrated because we couldn't understand him most of the time. 

Kids have very short attention spans, so fir time out it is one minute per age of child. 5 minutes to a 5 year old can seem like an eternity.

Sometime kids want attention and they don't care if the attention is positive or negative. Maybe when he acts out distract him with something, like play cars with him or distract him to do something else, or do something else with him. See if that helps.. He seems to be screaming for attention!


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Had to do that 'remove all toys' thing with my kiddo when she was little. I have to admit it was the one effective parenting thing my ex ever did. She had to earn toys back.

Since he seems to want attention, I think the chart is an excellent idea and keep reminding him of the reward. Make the reward one-on-one time with YOU. Also, do not raise your voice with each subsequent request. There should be no yelling period. It shows you are out of control and guess who is IN control when Mom resorts to yelling? The kids are.

The chart should have behaviors you want to focus on - responding to requests promptly, no hitting/yelling, etc. When he reaches 20 stars he gets an hour at the park alone with Mom where you play, chase, push on the swing, etc. 

If what he wants is attention, promise him attention for behaving. Whatever level of attention that works for you as a family. Just some ideas to consider. 

ETA - it will only take one great hour that you can continue to remind him with. Once he reaches his reward the first time, he'll really have something to look forward to!


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## Keenwa (Oct 26, 2013)

Personally I don't think rewards or punishment really work. You want your child to behave nicely because he is empathic and cares, not because he is going to get a reward or not get a punishment. I think he is trying to tell you he needs you, and the only way he is getting your attention is through acting out. You need to figure out what he needs. My daughter did this when she was 5, turns out she was very unhappy at school. The more strict I became the more intolerable she became. She is highly sensitive. 

You might want to read about highly sensitive children. Also might want to read about attachment. I had to do a complete about face with my daughter to help her. Also if a child does not feel attached to you or respect you, no amount of discipline will work, because they just don't care what you think anymore. You might want to read the book "how to talk so children will listen, and listen so children will talk". 



Check out also the book "Hold on to your Kids" - Neufeld Institute


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