# Not sure where to start - what to do with cheating wife



## Orange375

As the title suggests, I am not sure where to start because I could easily write pages and pages. I am a white male, age 26, attractive, successful, and hard working. My wife is white female, age 26, very attractive, recently quit her job because she didn't like it to become a nanny. I think shortest way to describe situation may be chronological, so I will try my best to provide enough detail without going overboard.

March 2011 - we meet at bar in college, both extremely attracted to each other, instant chemistry. We text for 3 weeks before going on first date, she was busy, then sick, then traveled, etc.

April 2011 - we go on first date, hit it off, and spend just about every day together 

May 2011 - I graduate college and get a job 1 hour away. She has 1 year left of school. Everything is incredible, we are infatuated with each other.

June 2011 - She tells me that while at a bar, a guy kissed her out of nowhere and she didn't kiss him back. I have been cheated on before, and swore to myself that I would never go down that road again. I guess she convinced me that it wasn't a big deal and I continued on with the relationship.

July 2011 - May 2012 - Things are great, and I have never been happier. In past relationships I have felt myself being too attached, too controlling / afraid of trusting, etc but with her I am so relaxed and I love the way she makes me feel. The only stress between us has been that while she has been living at school this last year, I have been living at home in an effort to save up money while working and have full down payment on house quickly. She does not like that I live at home and looks down on me for it. I work 60+ hours a week and she was coming to see me more than I was going to see her, which led to some frustration as well.

May 2012 - after graduation we go out with friends. Out of no where she and this other guy hug each other, and it is immediately uncomfortable, something is odd. I ask her who he was and she says that is was J. I don't remember the exact details of what happened after that, but I know we left and went home and it was a bad night. The backstory on J is that he was a guy she dated while in college and they never really broke up because they were never really officially together, but he got deployed and in the meantime she got an actual boyfriend and then we started dating. So when she saw him, it was a total shock.

June 2012 - she comes to me crying and says that she and J have been texting and she doesn't know what to do because she doesn't have closure with him and never thought she would see him again, and now that she has, is not sure if she will always ask herself what if. I am obviously devastated but at the same time, realize that we have only been together for a year and if she wants to go be with him then that's what needs to happen. After a few days she says that she has made up her mind and only wants to be with me. She also moved to the same city I live in, with another female roommate. We both never wanted to live with someone before getting married.

July 2012 - she says that she doesn't want me to wear condoms anymore because they irritate her and she hates the feeling. She is not on birth control. I tell her that I am not going to have sex unless she is on birth control. She did the patch for a while but it made her gain weight so she went off of it. We agreed that she would get an IUD but the soonest it could be done was October 1 which meant no sex for 3 months.

September 2012 - she is acting weird and upset and not happy I have a pit in my stomach. She had gone back to the college town the weekend before for a concert and football game with friends. I couldn't go due to work, but when I offered to meet her on the weekend she actually told me not to worry about it and she would be back early Sunday. So I am laying there in bed with her and my mind is racing so I secretly look at her phone and start reading messages between her and her best friend. I read 2 texts that still hurt me to this day 1) "I stayed with him last night and we banned a million times" (yes, it said banned) and 2 "we kissed on the dance floor and I didn't feel bad at all, I really like him". Upon reading these, I wake her up demanding answers and demanding what "banned" meant because I was 99.99% certain it was a typo for banged and she swore up and down that while she did stay with him, in his bed and in his shirt, they didn't even kiss. They only kissed at the dance club. Needless to say I am distraught and she is angry and making it seem like I am over reacting. She goes to her parents that day (3 hours away) and I just try to keep it together at work and then go to my sisters house that night to just be around people. She comes back the next day very upset and explains that she realized while driving home and at home that she made the biggest mistake of her life and she couldn't fathom life without me, etc etc. I took her back...

October 2012 - she gets the IUD, we start having sex again, things are good, but I am living with immense pain from the cheating and lying and hoping things will continue to improve.

December 2012 - her roommate decides to have her fiancé move in with them, and living arrangements become very uncomfortable and she has yet to get a career type job, so she says that she is going to move back home (3 hours away). I tell her that if she wants to do that I am fine with it, but we are over because I am not doing long distance again (awful experience with that years ago). So the only other option it seems is to move in together, so we do.

January 2013 - June 2013 - as I recall everything was good

July 2013 - she is watching tv on the couch late at night, and I had gone to bed. I went to the kitchen to get a drink and she flips her phone over fast. I don't mention it and go back to bed. The next morning I asked who she was talking to and she said her sister. I kept pushing it and she finally said that J had texted her but they just exchanged a couple texts. Im furious but what am I going to do. I felt like breaking up over texts was too extreme, so I continued on. 

August 2013 - I take her on a work trip to a great hotel in a great city and we wind up in huge fight because she wanted me to be more fun and party and stay out late, but I was tired by midnight from the conferences and being up early, etc. She complained that I am not the same person she met originally and I am not fun anymore. 

September 2013 - May 2014 - as I recall things are overall good - must have been because I bought an engagement ring in May - she has been pressuring me about either getting married or breaking up because she doesn't want to waste time if we aren't going to get married.

June 2014 - a best friend of mine is getting married far away and I am in the wedding. I don't ask her to come because we have been fighting a lot and these friends are some of my very best friends that I grew up with and I know stories will be told and I know she will get insecure and angry and I just simply didn't want to mess with all that. I just wanted to have a nice, fun, relaxed time, so I didn't invite her. She still does not let me live this down and is still to this day hurt by the rejection and furious about it.

July 2014 - no news to report

August 2014 - we get engaged

September 2014 - October 2014 - no news

November 2014 - she says that she is sick of me asking for sex and I make her feel bad about it, and she complains when it hurts but I don't stop and she is just sick of it and we should stop until we get married. In an effort to more than assure her that I am not using her for sex, and that I really do love her and value her intimately, I say no problem.

December 2014 - May 2015 - we have a few fights where she throws her ring across the room and begs me not to marry her because she thinks I am settling. I tell her that if she wants to break up with me, no problem, but I am not going to break up with her. I do want to marry her but if she doesn't want to marry me then that is her decision. Throughout our engagement I remind her that we need to focus more on the marriage than the wedding, but that doesn't seem to phase her. She plans an incredible wedding, seriously she was amazing at it and put every ounce of energy into it. 

June 2015 - we get married, it was incredible event, but I cant tell you how excited I was for that night considering it had been 7 months, and it seemed that was the last thing on her mind. We did have sex, but it felt like we did because we were supposed to. On the honeymoon it pretty much felt the same way. Not the explosions of passion and intimacy and craving for each other that I had hoped for.

July 2015 - current = living nightmare - absolute nightmare. We come back from the honeymoon on July 4, I find out July 5 that my grandfather died on the 4th, so we go to his funeral far away. On the flight back home, she tells me that right before she walked down the aisle she got a text from J and it said congratulations. She said that she was so relieved because she felt absolutely nothing. While I was sitting there wondering why even tell me then, I guess I was relieved too because the alternative would obviously be worse. Once we get back home, she is begging for me to allow her to quit her job because she hates it. I am totally caught off guard, because while the plan has always been for her to be a stay at home mom, it was agreed that she would work for 3 more years until we start having kids and we would save all of her money so it would not be stressful going to one income. But I guess she thought that once we got married I would be cool with not following our plan. I realized after reading for countless hours online that a lot of new brides go through crazy emotions after getting married and I do agree that I need to be 26 and not 46, so despite already having spent a fortune the past few months, I take her on a spontaneous weekend trip. Everything is great until she offers to go get us drinks and comes back to me with a guy that she cant stop talking about how we need to become friends with him, he has his own plane, etc etc. I have never lost my cool with her, but I did at that moment because I was so hurt. I felt like I have been taking an absolute beating and yet here I am taking you on another trip and you repay me by disrespectfully bringing over some random guy to talk to me about? Like I care at all about him or what plane he has. I was crushed and so angry. I told her everything that was on my mind that night. The next day on the way home she said that she was officially done and wanted a divorce and would be moving out. Then she started going out without me, but she was going out with her best friend who is married, so while I was uncomfortable, I wasn't too worried. Then she said she was going to sign a contract to be a live in nanny in Australia, but never ended up doing it. Then she said she wanted a tattoo, and I of course wasn't fond of this either. Then she inevitably said that I was controlling and ever since we got married I have been trying to control her. Her rings came off in July and have never gone back on. She started a pattern for a while of partying, once didn't even come home, lied about taking Uber and I caught a guy in a truck dropping her off in the driveway but of course swears it was innocent. And then by Sunday is asking me if we should stay together, she says she feels like she is a trainwreck and destroying her life, etc etc. She has been sleeping in other bedroom since July. She asked me to have sex with her once or twice and I said I didn't feel like it was for the right reasons and she had been treating me so awful that while I wanted the sex itself, it just felt so wrong. She did not like being turned down and we haven't had sex since August. 

September 26, 2015 - its just the two of us at a bar, and having a fine time until I said something I guess that made her lose it and she went on a full rant about how she has been talking to J since I blew up on her on that weekend trip, and she wants to marry him and she has met up with him but they didn't kiss or anything else. She said that she feels nothing for me, is not attracted to me, and the only thing she is afraid of is that he will never make much money and that one day she will be with him and she will see me in a range rover and regret that it could have been her life. She said that she married me for security and is screaming at this point for me to leave. She said that the story she told about her having sex with his best friend and him hating her for it was a lie just so that I would really believe that she was no longer talking to him (she told me this lie only a few weeks back) She said that she actually called him a month before the wedding after one of our fights and told him that the only reason she was marrying me was that there was too much money tied up in the wedding and if he would pay it, she wouldn't marry me. She said that she thinks about him all the time and she likes that they are the same person.

She gets up to go to the bathroom, and I leave, go to my parents for the night, and tell them everything (had never told them before despite being very close to them) and then call and tell her parents in the morning (I am also very close with them). She goes ballistic the next day and is beyond furious that I told/involved other people. I don't talk to her at all. She starts packing. A couple days go by and she comes in my room to talk to me and says that I have to cut off ties with my family and if I do that then we can try to work on things but otherwise she is out. I didn't give her an answer. 

I start seeing a counselor on my own, and let her know that I did that. I had asked her to counseling many many many times but she always refused. I asked her to just consider it this time, and she finally went with me. We have been in counseling for 3 weeks and it has not gone great, she promises that she told the other guy that she is going to work on things with me but I highly doubt that. Really have not made much progress and at this current moment the plan is for her to move out and get a divorce. Last night however she said that counseling has made it very real to her and she for the first time in ages kissed me and hugged me and laid her head on me on the couch. She had actually slept in my bed the night before, but last night as she was walking into my room to sleep in there again, she said actually I think I will sleep in my room tonight. I said ok that's cool. 

I am not sure who will read all of this, but I hope that you read at least the 2015 part. I made it entirely too long, but this is just scratching the surface. I also must admit that putting it in writing and in a time line makes me feel like a total idiot because wow, it doesn't look like we ever made it every long at all without major problems, and for some reason I still asked her to marry me. Anyways - I am writing this on this website because I am having a tremendously painful day because I just don't know what to think anymore. I want closure SO bad, whether that is in a divorce or in working on things, I just need some sense of honesty about the whole thing and I just don't trust anything at this point. Total rollercoaster by the hour and it appears many of your are experts on this type of situation and I would be most appreciated of your feedback and advice. Her most recent verbal thought was "I don't want a divorce but I just don't know any other options" my reply was that nothing is impossible and there are always options. We are supposed to be agreeing on a set date that she will move out by. I don't think reality has quite set in with her yet about how hard and different her life will be - but at the same time, I am so scared of her staying or working on things with me just for the security. Help, I know I need it. Thank you all so much in advance.


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## Buddy400

OK, that's easy.

No kids. Get a divorce.


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## ReidWright

yikes...she must be super hot for you to put up with this garbage.

she told you the truth...she's a gold digger...believe her and run fast


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## brooklynAnn

I read your novel, what I got out of it is: your wife still thinks she is unattached, with a college mentality and should not be married.

You really need to rethink this marriage. Is this how you see yourself living life? 

This marriage will continue on the same path in 5 years if you stay together. She isn't thinking that you have settled, she knows that she has settled with you. Just turning it around and saying it's not you, it's me.

Your wife has no respect for you. In a marriage having respect for your spouse is huge. It's means that you take their feelings into consideration. She does not do this.

She has no boundaries. This is why she keeps doing the things she does. She does not understand that boundaries keep the two of you together and outside influences from harming your marriage.

Please don't choose her over your parents. She just does not want people to know what she is doing and trying to hide her bad behavior. You should also, tell her parents. 

You are going to have to decide what you will do in this marriage, to go or to stay and knowing this is what your future will hold.

In the meantime, read up on the 180 to see if this will help you put some distant and give you a mental break to digest this situation. Keep posting let us know how you are doing.


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## Bibi1031

Just divorce. She is crazy!

Good riddance!

You will find someone that truly appreciates you, and isn't freaking crazy. 

Bibi


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## Orange375

I am finding it difficult to put into words how I am feeling at this moment, but I am really struggling hard with going through with the divorce when I don't have any ABSOLUTE PROOF of physically cheating. Obviously she has been emotionally cheating, but I am SO AGAINST divorce, that I feel like in order to have closure and feel comfortable with myself after, I really need that absolute proof and I am not sure how to get it. She keeps her phone with her like it is GLUED to her hand wherever she goes. We don't have a computer. She sleeps in the other bedroom with the door locked and is a very light sleeper. 

I do not want a divorce, I want us to work things out, but there are SO many problems and so much hurt over the years that never had any resolution, I cant even imagine where to start or if she would be strong enough to do it. 

I don't even know what to do like right now, today. She texted me today and said "hey" - do I act normal, do I bring her divorce papers? I know she will freak out with the divorce papers, so I feel like I need to prepare somehow for that. Even if she didn't get angry but rather had a melt down and begged for me back, I don't know what I am supposed to do.

No, we do not have any kids.


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## kristin2349

ReidWright said:


> yikes...she must be super hot for you to put up with this garbage.
> 
> she told you the truth...she's a gold digger...believe her and run fast



^^This^^

I'm sorry you are here, you have ignored every single red flag she has waved at you. You need to divorce her and quick, just drop her like a bad habit. She never loved you and never will, sorry to be harsh. That line about the Range Rover said it all (and it made me puke in my mouth a little) she is a piece of work.


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## ReidWright

Orange375 said:


> I don't have any ABSOLUTE PROOF of physically cheating.
> .
> .
> 
> . She sleeps in the other bedroom with the door locked and is a very light sleeper.


do you share a cell phone plan? can you access her records online?

get a VAR (or two) , put it in the house, and leave. If she's 'talking' to J or whoever, you'll know in a few days. One in her car too.


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## parati

I'm divorced and totally against divorce except in the most extreme cases. In this case, even I say divorce and run like hell. I found it hard to believe you married her after the instances with J.


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## Satya

You don't need proof. 

Her behavior is all the proof you need. 

You might have the young and attractive qualities going for you, but you're naive when it comes to healthy relationships. Re-read your insane post and think about what you'd say to a good buddy of yours if he wrote that. 

Some objectivity is in order. I say, divorce her as efficiently and amicably as you can, cut her off totally from contact, and keep going to your therapist to help your healing process. She is NOT marriage material.


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## bandit.45

Divorce.


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## Satya

Orange375 said:


> do I act normal, do I bring her divorce papers? I know she will freak out with the divorce papers, so I feel like I need to prepare somehow for that. Even if she didn't get angry but rather had a melt down and begged for me back, I don't know what I am supposed to do.


Did you forget that she was the one that brought up divorce first according to your post?

Think of it as following through on her threat and don't feel guilty for doing what you need to do.


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## MachoMcCoy

brooklynAnn said:


> You are going to have to decide what you will do in this marriage, to go or to stay and knowing this is what your future will hold.


We need to stop implying that there is any reason to even THINK about staying.

Crazy psycho party girl will NEVER stop partying. You must be insane to even be asking what you should do.

26? No kids? Insane wife? Are you kidding me?

Document for the court battle. Otherwise, just run fast.


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## EVG39

Why do you need proof of cheating to stop the madness? Is this someone you want to spend the rest of your life with , to be the mother of your children?
You know the answer to that. Who cares if, and more likely when you "prove" she is cheating.
Get out while you can and before there are children born into this mess.


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## NWCooper

She doesn't love you, and that really is the bottom line here. I hope you love yourself enough to realize this and just be done with her.

She is also a drama queen. She obviously likes all this drama and upheaval. This has been your whole entire relationship with her. Do you enjoy living like this, because if you stay, this will always be your life, only you will end up adding a couple kids to the mix. Think about this hard, is this what you envision a good life to be for yourself?

You should still be in the honeymoon phase of your life together. You have been married only a few months. She wanted a "wedding", she never wanted to be "married". It's a hard pill to swallow, but if you cut your losses now, you will be better off.


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## ButtPunch

Divorce her. More red flags than a communist parade.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ihatethis

Orange375 said:


> I am finding it difficult to put into words how I am feeling at this moment, but I am really struggling hard with going through with the divorce when I don't have any ABSOLUTE PROOF of physically cheating. Obviously she has been emotionally cheating, but I am *SO AGAINST divorce*, that I feel like in order to have closure and feel comfortable with myself after, I really need that absolute proof and I am not sure how to get it. She keeps her phone with her like it is GLUED to her hand wherever she goes. We don't have a computer. She sleeps in the other bedroom with the door locked and is a very light sleeper.
> 
> *I do not want a divorce*, I want us to work things out, but there are SO many problems and so much hurt over the years that never had any resolution, I cant even imagine where to start or if she would be strong enough to do it.
> 
> I don't even know what to do like right now, today. She texted me today and said "hey" - do I act normal, do I bring her divorce papers? I know she will freak out with the divorce papers, so I feel like I need to prepare somehow for that. Even if she didn't get angry but rather had a melt down and begged for me back, I don't know what I am supposed to do.
> 
> No, we do not have any kids.


Trust me when I tell you this. You cannot make someone be as dedicated in a marriage as you are. You cannot make someone be in the same mindset as you and you simply cannot be in a marriage that isn't a partnership. I too, was in the same boat. I got married when I was 21 almost 22 and I got a divorce at 28. I did NOT want to get divorce nor do I believe in it, but I could not make my husband have those same beliefs. I am someone who will do what I can 100% but I cannot make someone else do the same. You don't want a divorce because you don't believe in it. I think you already know that it is what is needed. Your wife was never checked into the marriage and I think that after you wrote it all down, you can see that too. The scariest part is getting a divorce and wondering if you will ever find someone who believes in marriage like we do. But guess where, both of us are here and there are many others on here who believe the same thing. So we do exist. 

Divorce is the scariest most hard thing I've gone through in my life. But I know that out there is someone who will be as committed as I am. And I now know that I will KNOW when the person I am with TRULY wants to get married or not, and not because of society reasons.

You have got to look at the things you are writing and the things she has done. If she loves you, she would never, EVER say the things she has said to you OR talk to men OR sleep in their beds. DO NOT SETTLE.

You've got this. And you got us to help you along the way.


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## Orange375

If divorce is the answer (and yes, I know I am insane to think there is another option, but I do love her) then what are my steps to do that. Again, I think she is going to go ballistic, so I feel like I need to be prepared for that, but I am not sure what those preparation steps are. Advice would be appreciated. 

I have major fears that somehow I am going to look back and feel a lot of guilt. I already feel the guilt increasing each day to be honest, because I know that I never made her feel the way she wanted/needed. I am a pretty critical person who expects a lot out of people, as I do myself. I know it might not appear that I have high standards, but if anyone was to describe me, they would say that I am a perfectionist and meticulous in detail. While this has served me well at work, I will be first to admit that I was hard on her and too critical, even rude/condescending in my tone (have been told that before by other people as well). She has always complained that I am mean to her, and while I don't think I have ever said anything in an effort to actually hurt her, I know that I have hurt her, torn down her self esteem, etc. So I do feel a lot of guilt for causing her to feel so bad for so long. I know, I know - don't blame myself for her actions, only she is in control of those things, I get that, but it doesn't change that I have faults too and I feel responsible for fixing them which makes getting a divorce that much harder.


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## ihatethis

Orange375 said:


> If divorce is the answer (and yes, I know I am insane to think there is another option, but I do love her) then what are my steps to do that. Again, I think she is going to go ballistic, so I feel like I need to be prepared for that, but I am not sure what those preparation steps are. Advice would be appreciated.
> 
> I have major fears that somehow I am going to look back and feel a lot of guilt. I already feel the guilt increasing each day to be honest, because I know that I never made her feel the way she wanted/needed. I am a pretty critical person who expects a lot out of people, as I do myself. I know it might not appear that I have high standards, but if anyone was to describe me, they would say that I am a perfectionist and meticulous in detail. While this has served me well at work, I will be first to admit that I was hard on her and too critical, even rude/condescending in my tone (have been told that before by other people as well). She has always complained that I am mean to her, and while I don't think I have ever said anything in an effort to actually hurt her, I know that I have hurt her, torn down her self esteem, etc. So I do feel a lot of guilt for causing her to feel so bad for so long. I know, I know - don't blame myself for her actions, only she is in control of those things, I get that, but it doesn't change that I have faults too and I feel responsible for fixing them which makes getting a divorce that much harder.


First of all, if you did those things, did she address them? Did you work on them together to get through them? I believe that when we make mistakes, the first time it is a mistake, but after that and you do the same thing, it's a choice. I think the both of you made choices to hurt each other, and you didn't even realize it. I can't remember if you said or not but have you guys seen a MC? If not, I think it would be beneficial for you both, even if it is a lead into divorce. It will somehow be closure for you, maybe even her.

As far as the steps in regards to divorce. I would make sure that financially, you have your own account set up. I believe you can take half of what's in your joint account and put it in your own. I would do these things before you tell her, because she seems immature and that she could go haywire and take what she wants.


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## Lostinthought61

wait wait wait orange....if any one should look back with guilt its her. you alone could not hold up this marriage, you married someone who still has a lot of growing up to do and is very immature....she was never ready to be married within that context....just putting a ring on and telling people your married while at the same time hiding calls, and texts with another man is not being married....move on now, i know it hurts like a bastard, but like ripping off a bandage it will heal better over time.


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## Average Joe

Even a free consultation with a divorce attorney will put your mind at ease. They'll be able to help you with filing advice and all the logistical stuff you need.

You'll be ok. 26, right? I think I was 30. So many of us have been there. Eventually you'll look back and laugh.


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## Marduk

I read it.

Get the hell away from this woman.

And when you get your head straight with that, go and talk to somebody about:
- staying with a woman who obviously cheated on you many times
- why you pick women like this to begin with
- why your response to repeated infidelity is to try to control her rather than leave her

Just be thankful you don't have kids.

Step #1: stop talking to her at all. Throw her out and do not discuss ANYTHING. No texting, no phone calls, no booty calls, no nothing.
Step #2: call a lawyer and get the ball rolling.
Step #3: go talk to somebody. I understand that control is a response to cheating, but it's the wrong one. Leaving is the response to cheating, not controlling her.

PS I was you.

By the time I was 3 months into the d, I was already happier than I ever was married to that woman.


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## DanielleBennett

I never really want to go for the divorce route, I'm all about fixing problems in a marriage, but this lady is crazy. I read the whole original post, and by your timeline, I think she has been lying and cheating since day 1. She said she married you for security and that she didn't know if she could marry J instead because she's afraid he won't make enough money...sweetheart, she is using you for a meal ticket or a certain way of life that she wants. If the counseling isn't working then maybe it is time to throw in the towel and just let her move out and move on with someone else. She will probably end up cheating on whoever she is with anyway. If you can prove that she was cheating around the time that you got married then you MIGHT be able to get an annulment but if anything a divorce would work. You two have only been married for a few months so it will probably be fast and easy and she won't get any financial benefit from it, especially since you two don't have kids. Also, make sure you continue therapy for yourself. It will help you overcome this bad chapter in your life and help you move on. Here is a good resource for divorce and getting free papers to start filling out if you need them. Free Divorce and Free Divorce Papers - all 50 States - Document Do It Yourself Service


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## the guy

Your wife is a big time cake eater. Both you and J will never get a commitment from her , so until she goes and gets some help for this issue you will need to let her go. (so should J)

I suggest when you are ready to pull the trigger on divorce you ask her to see her phone immediately {she will refuse} then you inform her that the marriage is not healthy 1) there is no romance 2) there is no trust and 3) you *both* deserve to be happy.

The way I see it is asking to see her phone should be validation enough to call it. I mean you guys don't even sleep in the same bed and she acts completely different when you aren't around/looking and at the end of the day don't you deserve better!!!!!

Geez...... even if she isn't sleeping around do you want to grow old with a women that has issues and doesn't want to do something about it to make her self better, happier, and emotionally healthy all around so she can raise a family the best way she can.

At the end of the day she has the resource to make for a better life for her self as an individual, but instead wants to bring you down with her.


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## the guy

If you really need more in order to pull the trigger on divorce then hire a PI or go buy a couple of voice activated recorders and plant them in her room and in her car.

If a smoking gun is what you need then go and get it. Do the investigation you must do in order to validate getting out of this toxic marriage.

The way I see it is in 5 years you are either going to be glad you got out or kicking your self while you watch the kids and your wife is coming home at 6:00 the next morning with out her panties, and refuses to tell you were she was.


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## ConanHub

Dude. I can't even make it through your whole story.

She has got to be the biggest idiot slvt I have ever heard of.

See if you can get an annulment and never talk to this creep again.

Move on, get tested for STDs and find a female that doesn't shed her scales and lay eggs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## the guy

Speaking of panties....you do know you can buy a kit that will tell you if her panties have male semen on them.

But then again how can you get her panties when your own wife sleeps in another room with the door lock?

You might want to repeat my last sentences...hell do it out loud....maybe then you will see how broken this marriage is.


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## the guy

ConanHub said:


> She has got to be the biggest idiot slvt I have ever heard of.
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There are worse out there.

From my count his wife has J and one other guy she met when she went back to visit.

So besides the two other guys she seems tame....but then again look at my own standards...:grin2:

Seriously I have to say that denial is deep and runs long. It's not uncommon for a betrayed spouse to go find the smoking gun that will motivate them to pull the trigger on divorce.

And in some cases the divorce is what it takes for a wayward to take the steps in finding help and having an emotionally healthy life as an individual.

In short he could be doing his wife a favor by divorcing her?????


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## ConanHub

the guy said:


> There are worse out there.
> 
> From my count his wife has J and one other guy she met when she went back to visit.
> 
> So besides the two other guys she seems tame....but then again look at my own standards...:grin2:
> 
> Seriously I have to say that denial is deep and runs long. It's not uncommon for a betrayed spouse to go find the smoking gun that will motivate them to pull the trigger on divorce.
> 
> And in some cases the divorce is what it takes for a wayward to take the steps in finding help and having an emotionally healthy life as an individual.
> 
> In short he could be doing his wife a favor by divorcing her?????


I took your story into account as well as many others before coming to the conclusion that this creature is an idiot if truly immense magnitude.

She has been a lizard for their entire relationship.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jsmart

You had enough evidence not to marry but you went forward anyway. That was a major mistake. She has not stopped banging this POS and you seem to willfully play ignorance. She is so disgusted by your neediness that even with the lifestyle you can afford her, she's not able to contain her disdain for you. 

You said you love her but it seems like you're just obsessed with her looks. Taking her $h!t because you don't think you're going to get another attractive woman.

Hire a lawyer and pursue an annulment. Work on yourself. You need to build yourself up. The right woman will come but you have to be the right man. Now you're a broken, dependent man that mistakes making a good living with being a catch.


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## Absurdist

I never respond to threads like this... but my goodness.

END THIS NOW.

Get this self absorbed human out of your life before you implode.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Average Joe

And while you didn't ask for it, I just want to offer ... maybe don't go for pure hotness next time. Hotness alone does not age well. Life gets more difficult, parents and friends pass away, pets are here and gone ... most people pick up the tools they need to deal with that stuff.

Hotness alone just gets worse. Hot people lose sh!t. Literally. They lose their keys, daily. Lose their wallet. Get pulled over by the cops, weekly. And they don't know how to grieve. They don't know how to suffer with you, be strong with you and for you in the bad times.

Go for brains and wit. Someone you can laugh with as you chase a lobster around the kitchen, or kill the buick-sized spider in the bathroom. Or suffer with through those Matthew McConaughey commercials. 

Hotness is a value-add ONLY. NOT the "thing."


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## Bibi1031

Orange375 said:


> If divorce is the answer (and yes, I know I am insane to think there is another option, but I do love her) then what are my steps to do that. Again, I think she is going to go ballistic, so I feel like I need to be prepared for that, but I am not sure what those preparation steps are. Advice would be appreciated.
> 
> *You have already been given great advice on how to proceed with getting rid of toxic waste.*
> 
> *You still love her? You're attached to crazy; you're codependent. Read about that. Something is wrong with You! *
> 
> 
> I have major fears that somehow I am going to look back and feel a lot of guilt. I already feel the guilt increasing each day to be honest, because I know that I never made her feel the way she wanted/needed. I am a pretty critical person who expects a lot out of people, as I do myself. I know it might not appear that I have high standards, but if anyone was to describe me, they would say that I am a perfectionist and meticulous in detail. While this has served me well at work, I will be first to admit that I was hard on her and too critical, even rude/condescending in my tone (have been told that before by other people as well). She has always complained that I am mean to her, and while I don't think I have ever said anything in an effort to actually hurt her, I know that I have hurt her, torn down her self esteem, etc. So I do feel a lot of guilt for causing her to feel so bad for so long. I know, I know - don't blame myself for her actions, only she is in control of those things, I get that, but it doesn't change that I have faults too and I feel responsible for fixing them which makes getting a divorce that much harder.


Like others have said; you are trying to control her. Well that's on you because you can't control anyone else but yourself. You most certainly can't control crazy!

You need IC. At 26, you have some issues to address in order to become a healthier you. You have lost 4 plus years on toxic waste. How many more do you want crazy to rob you? 

You love toxic, crazy, life stealing, chaos causing, lazy, cheating, immature, no good girlfriend material, and definitely non-existent marriage material?

Oh, and don't forget what You are to her:
1). Her piggy back
2). Her piggy BANK!


You really need your head examined if you can't find the rightful anger to propell you into getting out of this mess. Please seek professional help. You need it more than her at this point.

I wish you luck in finding a good therapist that can guide you in getting healthier.

Bibi


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## MarriedDude

Count yourself lucky that you haven't had any children with her. 

For your own sanity and well being...get legal help and extricate yourself from the train wreck.

Your future self will thank you
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## just got it 55

O 375

You Knew her baggage well in advance and you married her non the less!!

This says more about you than it does about her.

Get some help and leave this waist of O2

Clean up your **** before you even start to think about another relationship 

OR IT WILL HAPPEN AGAIN X 10

55


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## depressedandexhausted

This woman is controlling your every emotion. She is using your affection to fulfill her needs while ignoring yours. Not to mention the cheating. This sounds a lot like my soon to be ex wife. Tell yourself you need a divorce, start the process. Once you start it, start distancing yourself from her. Once I got away from my cheating spouse, I started to feel more alive, free and capable. My confidence spiked and I promise you, your feeling the weight of the situation. You need to do what is best for you, I know you feel like your obligated to her, like there is a need you cant fulfill without her. You need to get past that. I cant stress it enough. This woman is not good for you at all. She is going to bring you down, and damage you forever. Also maybe you should look into finding out why you find these women.


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## Satya

Don't have sex with her.


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## CH

He's not going to leave her.

The little head is draining all the blood from the big head.

Some people gotta learn the hard way in life. I know I sure have.


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## leon1

She really is nuts . Any chance you can get an annulment .


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## Be smart

Ohh man what a story. I think you are lucky,because you dont have any kids with this woman.

Divorce her immediatly,she does not love you or have any respect for you.

You dont have a "wife", you have a roommate who is living in your house for FREE. She has nothing to offer you in return,no sex,no money,no intimacy. SHe even keep herslef locked in other room.

She is with you just because you can pay her bills and food so she can go out with "friends" chasing other man,especially this J guy.

DIVORCE her as soon as possible,you have nothing to lose,only you can gain your respect back.


PS. Dont stop contact with your parents and your family. They love you and they are always going to be there for you


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## Steve1000

He was a bit fortunate that his wife slipped up and said why she married him. At the same time, OP's wife continues to keep her bad-boy part-time "friend" close at hand during their entire dating/marriage history. 

OP, you're an eternal optimist and you might still have hope that she'll realize how much she loves you and starts acting like loving and stable wife. Unfortunately, your wife is almost certainly not going to do that for the next 40 years. I take your word for it that you're a nice looking guy, but you're not attractive to your wife. Your wife is instead attracted to other men. There is no way to get past that. Accept it and then find a lady who is attracted to you, and you to her. You messed up by marrying this person, but you still can have a very happy life if you accept your wife for who she is, end the marriage, then keep distance from her.


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## 6301

Orange375 said:


> September 2012 - she is acting weird and upset and not happy I have a pit in my stomach. She had gone back to the college town the weekend before for a concert and football game with friends. I couldn't go due to work, but when I offered to meet her on the weekend she actually told me not to worry about it and she would be back early Sunday. So I am laying there in bed with her and my mind is racing so I secretly look at her phone and start reading messages between her and her best friend. I read 2 texts that still hurt me to this day 1) "I stayed with him last night and we banned a million times" (yes, it said banned) and 2 "we kissed on the dance floor and I didn't feel bad at all, I really like him". Upon reading these, I wake her up demanding answers and demanding what "banned" meant because I was 99.99% certain it was a typo for banged and she swore up and down that while she did stay with him, in his bed and in his shirt, they didn't even kiss. They only kissed at the dance club. Needless to say I am distraught and she is angry and making it seem like I am over reacting. She goes to her parents that day (3 hours away) and I just try to keep it together at work and then go to my sisters house that night to just be around people. She comes back the next day very upset and explains that she realized while driving home and at home that she made the biggest mistake of her life and she couldn't fathom life without me, etc etc. I took her back...


 You say your not sure that she cheated on you? Re read this. It's your words not ours. She stays with him, sleeps in his bed, in his shirt and didn't kiss.................but bet the house they did everything else..............and kissed.

Honest to God I can understand why she treats you with no respect. You pretty much tell her not to and she takes you up on your offer.

Sept of 2012 is when this farce should have ended but for some reason you don't have the common sense to understand that. So now you made her your wife and what is she doing. Throwing her rings at you and belittling you at every turn and you still haven't learned your lesson. She's acting like a single woman and making you act like a married man.

Comes down to this and your family and friends should have said this. Grow the hell up, get a backbone and unload this person. There isn't anything worth saving don't you understand that? This isn't a marriage. It's a nightmare. Giving you demands to stop seeing your family and she'll consider staying with you?

Only with you because you have the potential to someday own a Range Rover and "J" can only afford a 1980 Toyota and that she deserves a nice ride and better things but still wants "J's" comfort. One gets what one deserves and until you open your eyes and take a good look at the loser you married you in for a whole lot more. I wish you luck because your going to need it.


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## Orange375

I know all of you are right, but you are also right in that I am hoping and praying SO much that she does have an epiphany and realizes that she does love me and repents to such an extreme that we recover and have strongest relationship ever... and yes I do realize that I obviously have some sort of issues to be in this situation. It's an odd thing to me because when I am single I am extremely confident, verging on arrogant, like to go out, meet new people, etc but as soon as i get a girlfriend, it's like I don't want those things anymore. I want to stay home, I want to live very mature life, not waste money or time at bars. So what seems to happen is the girls think I am one way based on how we meet and then I change. My wife has accused me of changing into old boring man so many times. But, honestly I have zero desire to go out and do all that because I feel like I got what I wanted from it, beautiful girl that is fun, exciting, and supportive and into me - yet it seems that I then become unfulfilling to her, because she wanted c0cky party guy. It definitely is strange and I don't know what to make of it. I have dated very sweet, pretty girls in the past, that probably would never have done this to me - but they absolutely bore me to death. I guess I am supposed to find someone in between? What is wrong with me?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sapientia

The term for her is (sorry) "attention wh0re".

Divorce before its too late (she 'accidently' becomes pregnant). I gave up when I read she was giving you grief for living at home, saving to buy your home and working 60+hour weeks. She never grew up. You are a hard working man most women would be delighted to call husband.

Losing you will be the best gift you ever give her. It will shock her into growing up. She will treat the next man much better and you will BOTH be happier for it (you with a new wife who appreciates you).

Short term pain for long term gain. Good luck.


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## sapientia

Orange375 said:


> I know all of you are right, but you are also right in that *I am hoping and praying SO much that she does have an epiphany and realizes that she does love me and repents to such an extreme that we recover and have strongest relationship ever.*.. and yes I do realize that I obviously have some sort of issues to be in this situation.


People do not change as adults. Yours prayers just emphasize what a nice guy YOU are, but does nothing to change who she is. 

She takes you for granted. She is self-centred and needy. You cannot change this about her, you can only change who you choose as your next wife.


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## Phil Anders

alfa phux, beta bux... you provide, but don't stand up for yourself.
and she's a loser anyway.
tl;dr: gtfo


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## tom67

just got it 55 said:


> O 375
> 
> You Knew her baggage well in advance and you married her non the less!!
> 
> This says more about you than it does about her.
> 
> Get some help and leave this waist of O2
> 
> Clean up your **** before you even start to think about another relationship
> 
> OR IT WILL HAPPEN AGAIN X 10
> 
> 55


:iagree:
Read what this guy must be going through...

http://www.mgtowhq.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10610:(


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## farsidejunky

Why do you have so little self respect, Orange?

It is killing your decisiveness.


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## GusPolinski

Orange375 said:


> As the title suggests, I am not sure where to start because I could easily write pages and pages. I am a white male, age 26, attractive, successful, and hard working. My wife is white female, age 26, very attractive, recently quit her job because she didn't like it to become a nanny. I think shortest way to describe situation may be chronological, so I will try my best to provide enough detail without going overboard.
> 
> March 2011 - we meet at bar in college, both extremely attracted to each other, instant chemistry. We text for 3 weeks before going on first date, she was busy, then sick, then traveled, etc.
> 
> April 2011 - we go on first date, hit it off, and spend just about every day together
> 
> May 2011 - I graduate college and get a job 1 hour away. She has 1 year left of school. Everything is incredible, we are infatuated with each other.
> 
> June 2011 - She tells me that while at a bar, a guy kissed her out of nowhere and she didn't kiss him back. I have been cheated on before, and swore to myself that I would never go down that road again. I guess she convinced me that it wasn't a big deal and I continued on with the relationship.
> 
> July 2011 - May 2012 - Things are great, and I have never been happier. In past relationships I have felt myself being too attached, too controlling / afraid of trusting, etc but with her I am so relaxed and I love the way she makes me feel. The only stress between us has been that while she has been living at school this last year, I have been living at home in an effort to save up money while working and have full down payment on house quickly. She does not like that I live at home and looks down on me for it. I work 60+ hours a week and she was coming to see me more than I was going to see her, which led to some frustration as well.
> 
> May 2012 - after graduation we go out with friends. Out of no where she and this other guy hug each other, and it is immediately uncomfortable, something is odd. I ask her who he was and she says that is was J. I don't remember the exact details of what happened after that, but I know we left and went home and it was a bad night. The backstory on J is that he was a guy she dated while in college and they never really broke up because they were never really officially together, but he got deployed and in the meantime she got an actual boyfriend and then we started dating. So when she saw him, it was a total shock.
> 
> June 2012 - she comes to me crying and says that she and J have been texting and she doesn't know what to do because she doesn't have closure with him and never thought she would see him again, and now that she has, is not sure if she will always ask herself what if. I am obviously devastated but at the same time, realize that we have only been together for a year and if she wants to go be with him then that's what needs to happen. After a few days she says that she has made up her mind and only wants to be with me. She also moved to the same city I live in, with another female roommate. We both never wanted to live with someone before getting married.
> 
> July 2012 - she says that she doesn't want me to wear condoms anymore because they irritate her and she hates the feeling. She is not on birth control. I tell her that I am not going to have sex unless she is on birth control. She did the patch for a while but it made her gain weight so she went off of it. We agreed that she would get an IUD but the soonest it could be done was October 1 which meant no sex for 3 months.
> 
> September 2012 - she is acting weird and upset and not happy I have a pit in my stomach. She had gone back to the college town the weekend before for a concert and football game with friends. I couldn't go due to work, but when I offered to meet her on the weekend she actually told me not to worry about it and she would be back early Sunday. So I am laying there in bed with her and my mind is racing so I secretly look at her phone and start reading messages between her and her best friend. I read 2 texts that still hurt me to this day 1) "I stayed with him last night and we banned a million times" (yes, it said banned) and 2 "we kissed on the dance floor and I didn't feel bad at all, I really like him". Upon reading these, I wake her up demanding answers and demanding what "banned" meant because I was 99.99% certain it was a typo for banged and she swore up and down that while she did stay with him, in his bed and in his shirt, they didn't even kiss. They only kissed at the dance club. Needless to say I am distraught and she is angry and making it seem like I am over reacting. She goes to her parents that day (3 hours away) and I just try to keep it together at work and then go to my sisters house that night to just be around people. She comes back the next day very upset and explains that she realized while driving home and at home that she made the biggest mistake of her life and she couldn't fathom life without me, etc etc. I took her back...
> 
> October 2012 - she gets the IUD, we start having sex again, things are good, but I am living with immense pain from the cheating and lying and hoping things will continue to improve.
> 
> December 2012 - her roommate decides to have her fiancé move in with them, and living arrangements become very uncomfortable and she has yet to get a career type job, so she says that she is going to move back home (3 hours away). I tell her that if she wants to do that I am fine with it, but we are over because I am not doing long distance again (awful experience with that years ago). So the only other option it seems is to move in together, so we do.
> 
> January 2013 - June 2013 - as I recall everything was good
> 
> July 2013 - she is watching tv on the couch late at night, and I had gone to bed. I went to the kitchen to get a drink and she flips her phone over fast. I don't mention it and go back to bed. The next morning I asked who she was talking to and she said her sister. I kept pushing it and she finally said that J had texted her but they just exchanged a couple texts. Im furious but what am I going to do. I felt like breaking up over texts was too extreme, so I continued on.
> 
> August 2013 - I take her on a work trip to a great hotel in a great city and we wind up in huge fight because she wanted me to be more fun and party and stay out late, but I was tired by midnight from the conferences and being up early, etc. She complained that I am not the same person she met originally and I am not fun anymore.
> 
> September 2013 - May 2014 - as I recall things are overall good - must have been because I bought an engagement ring in May - she has been pressuring me about either getting married or breaking up because she doesn't want to waste time if we aren't going to get married.
> 
> June 2014 - a best friend of mine is getting married far away and I am in the wedding. I don't ask her to come because we have been fighting a lot and these friends are some of my very best friends that I grew up with and I know stories will be told and I know she will get insecure and angry and I just simply didn't want to mess with all that. I just wanted to have a nice, fun, relaxed time, so I didn't invite her. She still does not let me live this down and is still to this day hurt by the rejection and furious about it.
> 
> July 2014 - no news to report
> 
> August 2014 - we get engaged
> 
> September 2014 - October 2014 - no news
> 
> November 2014 - she says that she is sick of me asking for sex and I make her feel bad about it, and she complains when it hurts but I don't stop and she is just sick of it and we should stop until we get married. In an effort to more than assure her that I am not using her for sex, and that I really do love her and value her intimately, I say no problem.
> 
> December 2014 - May 2015 - we have a few fights where she throws her ring across the room and begs me not to marry her because she thinks I am settling. I tell her that if she wants to break up with me, no problem, but I am not going to break up with her. I do want to marry her but if she doesn't want to marry me then that is her decision. Throughout our engagement I remind her that we need to focus more on the marriage than the wedding, but that doesn't seem to phase her. She plans an incredible wedding, seriously she was amazing at it and put every ounce of energy into it.
> 
> June 2015 - we get married, it was incredible event, but I cant tell you how excited I was for that night considering it had been 7 months, and it seemed that was the last thing on her mind. We did have sex, but it felt like we did because we were supposed to. On the honeymoon it pretty much felt the same way. Not the explosions of passion and intimacy and craving for each other that I had hoped for.
> 
> July 2015 - current = living nightmare - absolute nightmare. We come back from the honeymoon on July 4, I find out July 5 that my grandfather died on the 4th, so we go to his funeral far away. On the flight back home, she tells me that right before she walked down the aisle she got a text from J and it said congratulations. She said that she was so relieved because she felt absolutely nothing. While I was sitting there wondering why even tell me then, I guess I was relieved too because the alternative would obviously be worse. Once we get back home, she is begging for me to allow her to quit her job because she hates it. I am totally caught off guard, because while the plan has always been for her to be a stay at home mom, it was agreed that she would work for 3 more years until we start having kids and we would save all of her money so it would not be stressful going to one income. But I guess she thought that once we got married I would be cool with not following our plan. I realized after reading for countless hours online that a lot of new brides go through crazy emotions after getting married and I do agree that I need to be 26 and not 46, so despite already having spent a fortune the past few months, I take her on a spontaneous weekend trip. Everything is great until she offers to go get us drinks and comes back to me with a guy that she cant stop talking about how we need to become friends with him, he has his own plane, etc etc. I have never lost my cool with her, but I did at that moment because I was so hurt. I felt like I have been taking an absolute beating and yet here I am taking you on another trip and you repay me by disrespectfully bringing over some random guy to talk to me about? Like I care at all about him or what plane he has. I was crushed and so angry. I told her everything that was on my mind that night. The next day on the way home she said that she was officially done and wanted a divorce and would be moving out. Then she started going out without me, but she was going out with her best friend who is married, so while I was uncomfortable, I wasn't too worried. Then she said she was going to sign a contract to be a live in nanny in Australia, but never ended up doing it. Then she said she wanted a tattoo, and I of course wasn't fond of this either. Then she inevitably said that I was controlling and ever since we got married I have been trying to control her. Her rings came off in July and have never gone back on. She started a pattern for a while of partying, once didn't even come home, lied about taking Uber and I caught a guy in a truck dropping her off in the driveway but of course swears it was innocent. And then by Sunday is asking me if we should stay together, she says she feels like she is a trainwreck and destroying her life, etc etc. She has been sleeping in other bedroom since July. She asked me to have sex with her once or twice and I said I didn't feel like it was for the right reasons and she had been treating me so awful that while I wanted the sex itself, it just felt so wrong. She did not like being turned down and we haven't had sex since August.
> 
> September 26, 2015 - its just the two of us at a bar, and having a fine time until I said something I guess that made her lose it and she went on a full rant about how she has been talking to J since I blew up on her on that weekend trip, and she wants to marry him and she has met up with him but they didn't kiss or anything else. She said that she feels nothing for me, is not attracted to me, and the only thing she is afraid of is that he will never make much money and that one day she will be with him and she will see me in a range rover and regret that it could have been her life. She said that she married me for security and is screaming at this point for me to leave. She said that the story she told about her having sex with his best friend and him hating her for it was a lie just so that I would really believe that she was no longer talking to him (she told me this lie only a few weeks back) She said that she actually called him a month before the wedding after one of our fights and told him that the only reason she was marrying me was that there was too much money tied up in the wedding and if he would pay it, she wouldn't marry me. She said that she thinks about him all the time and she likes that they are the same person.
> 
> She gets up to go to the bathroom, and I leave, go to my parents for the night, and tell them everything (had never told them before despite being very close to them) and then call and tell her parents in the morning (I am also very close with them). She goes ballistic the next day and is beyond furious that I told/involved other people. I don't talk to her at all. She starts packing. A couple days go by and she comes in my room to talk to me and says that I have to cut off ties with my family and if I do that then we can try to work on things but otherwise she is out. I didn't give her an answer.
> 
> I start seeing a counselor on my own, and let her know that I did that. I had asked her to counseling many many many times but she always refused. I asked her to just consider it this time, and she finally went with me. We have been in counseling for 3 weeks and it has not gone great, she promises that she told the other guy that she is going to work on things with me but I highly doubt that. Really have not made much progress and at this current moment the plan is for her to move out and get a divorce. Last night however she said that counseling has made it very real to her and she for the first time in ages kissed me and hugged me and laid her head on me on the couch. She had actually slept in my bed the night before, but last night as she was walking into my room to sleep in there again, she said actually I think I will sleep in my room tonight. I said ok that's cool.
> 
> I am not sure who will read all of this, but I hope that you read at least the 2015 part. I made it entirely too long, but this is just scratching the surface. I also must admit that putting it in writing and in a time line makes me feel like a total idiot because wow, it doesn't look like we ever made it every long at all without major problems, and for some reason I still asked her to marry me. Anyways - I am writing this on this website because I am having a tremendously painful day because I just don't know what to think anymore. I want closure SO bad, whether that is in a divorce or in working on things, I just need some sense of honesty about the whole thing and I just don't trust anything at this point. Total rollercoaster by the hour and it appears many of your are experts on this type of situation and I would be most appreciated of your feedback and advice. Her most recent verbal thought was "I don't want a divorce but I just don't know any other options" my reply was that nothing is impossible and there are always options. We are supposed to be agreeing on a set date that she will move out by. I don't think reality has quite set in with her yet about how hard and different her life will be - but at the same time, I am so scared of her staying or working on things with me just for the security. Help, I know I need it. Thank you all so much in advance.


JEEEEEEEEEESUS CHRIST!

Are you a freaking sadist?

Divorce this crazy b*tch ASAP.


----------



## 6301

Orange375 said:


> I know all of you are right, but you are also right in that I am hoping and praying SO much that she does have an epiphany and realizes that she does love me and repents to such an extreme that we recover and have strongest relationship ever... and yes I do realize that I obviously have some sort of issues to be in this situation. It's an odd thing to me because when I am single I am extremely confident, verging on arrogant, like to go out, meet new people, etc but as soon as i get a girlfriend, it's like I don't want those things anymore. I want to stay home, I want to live very mature life, not waste money or time at bars. So what seems to happen is the girls think I am one way based on how we meet and then I change. My wife has accused me of changing into old boring man so many times. But, honestly I have zero desire to go out and do all that because I feel like I got what I wanted from it, beautiful girl that is fun, exciting, and supportive and into me - yet it seems that I then become unfulfilling to her, because she wanted c0cky party guy. It definitely is strange and I don't know what to make of it. I have dated very sweet, pretty girls in the past, that probably would never have done this to me - but they absolutely bore me to death. I guess I am supposed to find someone in between? What is wrong with me?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 What wrong is you refuse to open your eyes and see how she really is. Yeah we all like a challenge to keep it interesting but this isn't one of them. It's a slap down if anything and until you realize that this girl can't be fixed then your in for a long hard time. It isn't going to get any better and she sure as hell isn't going to have a epiphany.


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## DanielleBennett

ConanHub said:


> Dude. I can't even make it through your whole story.
> 
> She has got to be the biggest idiot slvt I have ever heard of.
> 
> See if you can get an annulment and never talk to this creep again.
> 
> Move on, get tested for STDs and find a female that doesn't shed her scales and lay eggs.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


An annulment may be easy to get in your situation if you can prove she was cheating on you when you were married.


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## Orange375

So she stayed out last night and tells me that she didn't think I cared anymore since we decided earlier in the week that she would be moving out. Which is a lie because I specifically told her that regardless of our relationship status - so long as she lives in this house with her husband - she is not allowed to go out as it is emotionally killing me. We agreed to this on Sunday but I guess she forgot by Wednesday. So - I just got home from work and we sat down and decided on a hard date for her to move out by - she wanted 3 weeks, I wanted 1 week - so we settled on 2 weeks from now. I wanted to cry because she has little emotion which just still continues to blow my mind but even yesterday during the day she was texting me telling me that she is freaking out about all this and doesn't want this....but of course never said she was sorry, or wanted me, or anything actually positive - just that she didn't want "this" which I can only assume to mean the uncomfortableness of going out on her own and being broke in some dumpy apartment....BUT she told me today that she has now found a roommate - a guy, she has never met, but referred to him by a friend. I promise I can't make this stuff up. Of course I can't stop thinking about if they do know each other or not - I know you guys will say I am stupid but I don't think they actually do know each other. Regardless, I guess it truly doesn't matter and I need to stop thinking about all these things that cause me such pain and anxiety. I am not trying to sound like a victim, I'm just venting because it hurts so bad. I definitely hope that it all goes smoothly though and we go on our ways. I don't want a mess full of hate and anger. I mean I am definitely angry but somehow I have been able to really not let that emotion get very strong. I often think a normal person would have already freaked out and thrown all of her stuff in the street but I just take a deep breath and think to myself that I am more sure of myself than that and those actions would be self defeating. Ok - I will stop rambling, I love reading the replies so please keep them coming.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tech-novelist

There is one and only one reason to stay with her: You are a masochist and want a life of endless pain.
Otherwise, get a divorce, and thank your lucky stars that you didn't get her pregnant!


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## aine

Orange, your WW is too immature to be married. You are 26, how old is she? You sound mature for your age, not her. She married you because it was glamorous, you have money or earning potential, etc she was in love with the whole idea of being married to you but does not understand that the real work begins the day after the marriage. She still wants to party, do her own thing but have you as the support. You both need individual counselling, to sort out your own issues. If you both get yourselves sorted within say a year and then did some MC then you might have a chance. But that all depends on your WW, she doesn't sound like she has the right perspectives to be in a committed relationship. 
I would worry that 10 years down the line, she feels neglected, etc and does the same things all over again, she is very flaky tbh and not wife material based on what you say. 
She has given you enough material to go on, remember 'when a person shows you who they are, believe them the first time' that says it all, and she has shown you.


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## Vulcan2013

"I don't want this"

"This"=consequences. 

She's admitted to you you're just a provider, she doesn't love you, and she lusts after other guys. You need to man up, find your strength, and figure out why you stayed. No sensible man wife's up a woman who's cheated on him. Not wife material, not even gf material.


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## Satya

Btw her male "friend" that came out of nowhere was probably the dude she slept with on her night out. 

It would explain her cold detachment to you. The other guy is giving her brand new tingles....for now.


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## happy as a clam

Orange375 said:


> I specifically told her...so long as she lives in this house with her husband - *she is not allowed to go out* as it is emotionally killing me.


Yeah... good luck with this.

Be thankful she'll be gone in two weeks.


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## Orange375

Well - I thought it was very simple and fair request to ask her to not continue to go out and party for the next 2 weeks. But she is taking it to the extreme and now telling people she is trapped in a prison and I'm crazy and that she is glad other people can see the real me, etc etc. this is why I haven't stood up to her in the past, because when I did, it went sideways in a hurry. SO - do I just tell her she can do whatever she wants or what? I've been walked on this long, what is 2 more weeks? Absolutely brutal.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tron

Why don't you pack up her $hit now and throw it in the front yard. 

Tell her to hit the road, that you are DONE. 

If she needs a place to stay for a couple of weeks, offer to get her a motel room.


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## Dyokemm

Call her parents up and tell them they need to come pick up their cheating daughter.....you do not want her in the house anymore, and the escalating level of her outrageous behavior makes it imperative that you not be around her ever again in order to avoid unnecessary drama.

She just needs to go.....let her family or friends deal with where she will be staying.


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## Bibi1031

Orange375 said:


> Well - I thought it was very simple and fair request to ask her to not continue to go out and party for the next 2 weeks. But she is taking it to the extreme and now telling people she is trapped in a prison and I'm crazy and that she is glad other people can see the real me, etc etc. this is why I haven't stood up to her in the past, because when I did, it went sideways in a hurry. SO - do I just tell her she can do whatever she wants or what? I've been walked on this long, what is 2 more weeks? Absolutely brutal.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


OMGoodness, you are too naive!

Simple and fair request? You are dealing with cuckoo nuts!

Find a lawyer ASAP. Get a restraining order against her. Do something about her bad mouthing you! You can't stop her from talking $hit, but you can defend yourself legally from nutso.

You will be able to kick her crazy a$$ in no time once you get the lawyer's get go. Spend your money in that and not in keeping a place for her sorry A$$ to stay for two whole weeks.

Find your rightful anger and stop being the good guy with bad mouthing cuckoo nuts.

Enough is enough Orange!

Bibi


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## happy as a clam

Tron said:


> *Why don't you pack up her $hit now and throw it in the front yard.
> 
> Tell her to hit the road, that you are DONE.
> 
> If she needs a place to stay for a couple of weeks, offer to get her a motel room.*


This is perfect!!

Abso-effing-lutely PERFECT!!!!

OP, Please DO THIS...


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## DanielleBennett

just got it 55 said:


> O 375
> 
> You Knew her baggage well in advance and you married her non the less!!
> 
> This says more about you than it does about her.
> 
> Get some help and leave this waist of O2
> 
> Clean up your **** before you even start to think about another relationship
> 
> OR IT WILL HAPPEN AGAIN X 10
> 
> 55


I agree. I'm pretty sure she has drained you emotionally as well and if you want to be with someone who is good to you that you deserve then you need to get your self esteem back and set your standards higher.


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## just got it 55

Orange375 said:


> Well - I thought it was very simple and fair request to ask her to not continue to go out and party for the next 2 weeks. But she is taking it to the extreme and now telling people she is trapped in a prison and I'm crazy and that she is glad other people can see the real me, etc etc.* this is why I haven't stood up to her in the past, because when I did, it went sideways in a hurry.* SO - do I just tell her she can do whatever she wants or what? I've been walked on this long, what is 2 more weeks? Absolutely brutal.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



O 375 Can you guess why you are still in this position.

Do you really have to ask this

55


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## Tron

Orange375 said:


> But she is taking it to the extreme and now telling people she is trapped in a prison and I'm crazy and that she is glad other people can see the real me, etc etc.


What better gift could you possibly give her than the freedom she so desperately wants. 

Walking papers...today!

Seriously.


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## Orange375

just got it 55 said:


> O 375 Can you guess why you are still in this position.
> 
> Do you really have to ask this
> 
> 55


Well I guess that's my point - I am trying to learn as much as I can about myself through this nightmare because I realize I didn't do things the best along the way - also trying to figure out exactly what that means about me.....so yes, I am legitimately asking because it feels like lose/lose situation. In the beginning I guess I was just supposed to stand up to her and not back down and if that meant that I had to break up with her, then I did? And as far as now goes, it just feels like it's way too late to try and stand up to her now. She goes psycho when I do, so I am open to advice and constructive criticism on my character and thought process as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## just got it 55

Orange375 said:


> Well I guess that's my point - I am trying to learn as much as I can about myself through this nightmare because I realize I didn't do things the best along the way - also trying to figure out exactly what that means about me.....so yes, I am legitimately asking because it feels like lose/lose situation. In the beginning I guess I was just supposed to stand up to her and not back down and if that meant that I had to break up with her, then I did? And as far as now goes, it just feels like it's way too late to try and stand up to her now. She goes psycho when I do, so I am open to advice and constructive criticism on my character and thought process as well.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


O375 We learn to stand up for ourselves on the playground as children

Those lessons learned are there for all arenas in life.

Just stand up for yourself and what ever happens....... happens

In the end at least she will gain respect for you Maybe not as her husband but as a man.

I would never condescend to criticize or make judgement on your character 

If you give up on your self respect 
That's a total loss.

55


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## Dyokemm

"She goes psycho when I do"

Who cares.

Just remain calm and do not back down....insist she leave.

She is a liar, a cheat, and a user.

Tell her it is time for her to take that show on the road......and don't back down.


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## Marc878

She's a nutcase but you're the main problem.

Read your story and pretend it's someone else.

What would your advice be?

You're not her husband but her pet to treat as she pleases. How's that working out for you?????


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## Orange375

Last night was insane - she came home at 2am drunk and uncontrollably crying and furious. She kept saying how much she hated me and how I ruined us because I told my parents and her parents about the other guy and on and on. She kept demanding that I admit that I'm a horrible person and my family is awful and then she will stay with me. It was sad to watch but I just kept saying go to bed, let's talk tomorrow. Then she started getting violent, throwing her food at me, trying to hit me, throwing her cup with water in it thankfully across the kitchen, and then kept saying she won't be in this house anymore so she can't wait to destroy it and started going for the plates. Finally I have guarded off the plates long enough that she realizes she feels sick and goes to her room to lay down. Continues to say incredibly awful things and then starts begging me to cuddle with her and take care of her. I just stood in the doorway and when she finally seemed to tire down, I went to my room and got a couple hours of sleep. If she has a primary point of anger - it was that she was furious that I told her parents and my parents about the other guy - she kept saying I lied. I said that I would be happy to sit down with her parents, my parents, anyone really and set the record straight then. She didn't seem to like that offer. SO - I called her dad this morning and explained briefly what happened and he said he would be happy to come help situation. I am thinking now that we really aren't going to be able to live in peace until she moves out and I really don't know how she is going to move out on her own anyways. So - should I have her parents come here or is that going to make things worse considering she is already furious about me talking to them the first time?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bibi1031

You should of called the police and thrown her crazy a$$ in jail. You could have gotten rid of her yesterday. 

Yes, yes, yes, allow her parents to take nutso away. She is their problem not yours. Finally, good riddance! But before you do, you call the cops.

She is furious because she has been outed. She didn't think you had it in you. She knows what she is, but she still thinks she has wrapped you around her little finger. Talk to her again now and tell her to pack her $hit and that you are calling the cops. Do it now. Take pictures of the disaster she caused. Get lawyered up and legally get rid of any ties you have with her. 

Bibi


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## Bibi1031

After you physically get rid of her, please seek therapy for yourself to emotionally detox yourself of the terrible way she used you. Let this be a bad experience in your life. Stop being so dang NICE!

She doesn't deserve it. You never deserved this treatment, but you allowed it too long. Stop thinking she is a poor unemployed homeless woman. You have been carrying this crazy a$$ on your back too long. Your pockets and you pained back will thank you.

Bibi


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## arbitrator

*Your W is an emotional train wreck and is as crazy as a "peach orchard sow!"

Having read your entire litany, I am of the opinion that she was covertly "banging" J and just about anyone else who made her feel good enough about herself to summarily lower her "Victoria's Secrets" for them!

With the marked combination of her super-emotionality and no kids present on your life, do yourself a favor and lose her in a divorce court! You should file as quickly as you are able to! And stay away from her for your own emotional well-being! *
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Evinrude58

Please, Please, Please. This was hard to read. I've never heard of a case so clear for divorcing a woman. In her mind it was never a marriage, anyway. You are definitely the major problem, because you aren't crazy and have common sense. You just won't use it. I know for a fact how hard it is to let go of your woman, but realize as far as what you've said, she never was really yours.
You are in for a lifetime of heartache if you keep this up.
Divorce her. You MUST. You don't have a choice. Like you have said, you are attractive (she thought so, right? And she's pretty, according to you), you have a good job--- find a good woman that will treat you right and be loyal. 
Divorce her and at least save a little of your sanity, and maybe a smidgen of dignity.


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## Orange375

Well - I still can't really believe it but I filed for divorce today. I feel awful, I feel like I am betraying her - yes, I know, I know, I shouldn't feel that way but I do. I even feel like I am betraying her family. I am totally against divorce and I am not doing it to even remotely get back at her, or to hurt her, or really for any reason other than to protect myself and to try and get out of a situation where a person is constantly hurting me. I can't believe this has actually gone on for 4 solid months, it definitely has been a brutal time. 

I was pretty shocked and uncomfortable while doing this today with the lawyer. It was very simple and at the end I even asked - ok, so what am I supposed to do? He said nothing. He said the guy will call me a bit before he serves her with the papers, and that I need to be out of the house when he comes because if history means anything, she is going to go ballistic. Sad, makes me so sad, because I really do wish we could end this on calm respectful terms. Even if I am gone for that day and the following, I still have to go back to my house and I can't explain the anxiety I have about it. I know she is going to blame me, freak out on me. I really think in her mind, I ruined her fairy tale and that is why she is so angry. I gave her every piece of the puzzle she dreamed for, except I was the wrong guy and I think she hates me for not being able to be the guy she wanted so desperately. She has even told me that she is so sad because she doesn't think she will ever have a wedding (at least not like the one she had) again, and she is sad because it was used on me. If you're wondering how it felt to hear that - words can't describe. 

So - for all of you out there with experience in this area - what am I supposed to do once she has been served? We are still living in the same house. What do I do in the mean time? What if she takes some of my things? What if she just loses it and is drunk all the time and bringing guys over etc - I guess call the police, but just wanted to hear what you all have to say. 

The lawyer said not to tell her what was happening. It makes sense not to, but at the same time I don't want her to be surprised. I also don't want her family to be surprised. So painful, would not wish this on anyone. For those of you that go through this with children - I cannot fathom that. 

Again - any words of wisdom, technical advice, etc is most appreciated. Thank you again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marc878

Have the police on standby when you go home.


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## Orange375

Was really hoping for a lot of replies. 

After talking to a few of my most trusted friends, they think I should tell her that I filed and that someone is going to deliver her papers before it happens so that she is not caught off guard and surprised. 

Someone else even suggested I call her dad and let him know when she is going to be served so that he can arrive at the same time to help console her, be there for her, and as an added bonus hopefully will prevent her from destroying the house. Again, he and I are pretty close so I would love to do this, but I am just hesitant to go against the lawyers advice which was to not let her know it is coming. 

Any advice is MUCH appreciated. Thank you all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Evinrude58

After you serve her papers, you must kick her out. Have the cops there. You tou have gotten advice from your lawyer about this. You can't get divorced without some kind of separation period in most states. Stop being such a pansy and stand up for yourself. You should be there when she gets served to keep her from destroying your stuff. She will likely destroy it all, and go after your car if she is as bat **** crazy as you describe. It's one little old woman. By golly you should be able to handle her. Just have the cops on speed dial, change the door locks-- no joke, and be prepared for more crap. But at least you will eventually be she'd if this leech. 
Geez, she told you that about the wedding? That would really have made me out her in some fear herself.
Man up. You've got your while life ahead of you.


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## farsidejunky

I would not give her forewarning.

That can make it more difficult. 

Let her be served while you are elsewhere.


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## Satya

Do not warn her. 
She won't be happy no matter what. 
You'll be called a D1ck no matter what you do. 
Own your decision and just get her served papers. 
You take the wind out of your own sails, the more "explaining" you do. 
Stop doing what you think is "right" for others and do what is right for you.


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## Nucking Futs

Screw that. Have her served away from the house. If she "goes ballistic" in the house with you gone no telling how much damage she may do.


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## turnera

Orange375 said:


> She has even told me that she is so sad because she doesn't think she will ever have a wedding (at least not like the one she had) again, and she is sad because it was used on me.
> Again - any words of wisdom, technical advice, etc is most appreciated. Thank you again.


So basically you picked a girl who used you to get the ONE and ONLY dream she's ever had her whole life (and sadly not unlike many OTHER women who grow up with this dream) - to have the PERFECT wedding and be THE QUEEN OF THE EVENING. Sadly, to some women, this ONE night is the ONLY thing that matters to them. The man is irrelevant, as long as he helps PAY for that one night. Some women simply never think PAST that point.

Read No More Mr Nice Guy. It will help you get through this period and see what you could have done differently.

Oh, and I would text her right before and let her know it's coming AND call her dad a couple hours before you do that.


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## Evinrude58

Yes, ask her to be served elsewhere, and then watch your car all night for the next few days, or park it where she can't find it, and change the locks on your door. That's all serious, BTW. DO IT.

A crazy, entitled, narcissistic, woman is liable to do anything. I wouldn't sleep well for a while with her out there thinking she can do anything she wants to you like she has been and you won't do squat about it. That's a recipe for disaster.


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## Marduk

You need to think about what is in your best interests now, and only those best interests. Now is time for clarity on this.

And if you think about it, removing her interests from the equation, you will see that a sudden, and very surgical (to the point of being clinical) strike is best now.

Whether you serve it or someone else does is up to you. But if you do it, get in, deliver the cold hard message, do not engage further, and get out.

Think like you're an employer firing an employee. Say what you're legally obligated to say and call security to get her the hell outta there.


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## Orange375

Many of you are saying to kick her out, and change the locks upon having her served. It doesn't work like that. These papers declare the court date, which she is required to be at if she refuses to sign them but should she choose not to go, then it is my understanding that the judge rules in my favor by default. Hopefully she leaves on her own, but only a court order (which would be given at that declared date in the papers) can require her to leave.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Nucking Futs

Orange375 said:


> Many of you are saying to kick her out, and change the locks upon having her served. It doesn't work like that. These papers declare the court date, which she is required to be at if she refuses to sign them but should she choose not to go, then it is my understanding that the judge rules in my favor by default. Hopefully she leaves on her own, but only a court order (which would be given at that declared date in the papers) can require her to leave.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Go ahead and kick her out. Here's how you do it: Say "Get out! I don't care where you go but you can't stay here!" See if she leaves. If she does, hooray, you win! If not, go the legal route.


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## Evinrude58

I say give "j" a call and tell him you are divorcing your wife because she wasted her wedding on you and not him, inform him where she will be the day she is served, and tell him she needs a place to stay and since he loves her so [email protected]@ed much, he should be there for her. Actually, don't do that. He will run for the hills and she won't have him in the back of her mind anymore and will put all the heat on you to take her back. The things your wife said are beyond reprehensible. Heck, I remember them well and she didn't say them to me! Just kick her out and if she won't leave, ask your lawyer what to do. If she stays, tell her she needs to do a little cleaning around the place and don't give her any money for anything. Demand sex every night..... Whatever it takes. Crap, don't do that, either. As screwed up as she is, she might like it and you'd never be rid of her. 
Idk


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## cdbaker

My thoughts, prior to you're filing for divorce (since I am joining this late):

She is in an INCREDIBLY selfish place, and has been all along. She feels no guilt over any of the things she has done because she only thinks about her actions (and yours) in relation to how they impact her life and her needs. Her cheating with you? Didn't hurt her at all really, in fact since she enjoyed it, it actually made her feel good and her life better. You telling your and her family however made those people turn against her. That definitely made her life worse, so she's ANGRY at you for that happening. She waffled between you, the guy who can offer security and an easy work-free life, and J, the guy who she lusts for and feels a biological attraction to. This means she can't have both, which makes her angry, and because you're primarily just a paycheck to her, she's angry at you for her not being able to have both. Ultimately she'd love to make you a willing cuckold (google the term), I promise you that. Absolutely every bizarre thing she does can be explained by her PURE selfishness.

I recognize it because my wife went through a lot of the same motions, though not quite the same situations. When her affair was discovered, she didn't feel sorry for me, or apologetic, she was angry that I had spoiled her secret fun. When her family found out, she was angry that she'd lost that support group. When I insisted that she move out, she threatened to take our daughter with her so I filed for divorce and an emergency custody order and she was angry at me because I made the decision for her, while she thought she would be able to have her cake and eat it too.

The only solution to that is to stand up to her. No I don't mean tell her off or make any demands of her or anything like that, but simply to stand up and say that you aren't going to live this way, that you want her out asap if she can't honor her commitments and respect you, and then ignore her rants and texts and anger, etc. Basically, let her live with the ramifications of her choices, while you go on about your life rebuilding.

Honestly, don't worry about your doubts right now. Filing for divorce was the right move, and remember, most divorces take months to finalize so if you start right away on the 180 with your wife, there is always a chance that she will wake up and consider changing before it's final.

As for my thoughts regarding the divorce plan:

I have some experience with this. I highly advise that you sit down with your wife before she is served with the papers and let her know what is coming. That should help blunt the impact. Since she has a history of violence and wild behavior, I do think it would be a good idea to get her dad (or mom/sister maybe as a 2nd choice) involved to be there with you too. It sounds like he and her family respect you enough to be willing to do that for the sake of their loved one. I'm guessing they will understand completely why you are filing. Either way, I would very much advise against letting her be served with the papers without warning while she is alone. IF you do, then I would at least make sure it is a police officer serving the papers and not just a 3rd party server from the law firm or something.

Additionally, I would advise that you do whatever you can to get her to move out asap, especially if she can't honor her promises to you about her behavior until she leaves, or displays erratic destructive behavior. Maybe she can stay with her family until her new apartment/roommate situation is taken care of.


In any case, don't let her fool you. I could easily see her reaching her version of "rock bottom" and suddenly out of desperation trying to come back to you and convince you that she's had an epiphany. Suddenly finding herself having to work full time again, sharing a small apartment with a male roommate with whom she's not relationally interested in or vice versa, with the guilt/shame of having disappointed her whole family, now facing divorce during the remaining years of her "prime", with no immediate long term relationship partners waiting for her, etc., yeah I could see her panicking. Also, my guess is that J is not interested in her as a long term partner either. In fact, I'm guessing that he's made that somewhat clear to her many times in the past, and that this is why she's stayed with you all this time, figuring you were a good "1st husband" prospect offering financial security/lifestyle while she worked on winning J over and waiting for him to come around. So I wouldn't worry about him either.


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## cdbaker

Evinrude58 said:


> I say give "j" a call and tell him you are divorcing your wife because she wasted her wedding on you and not him, inform him where she will be the day she is served, and tell him she needs a place to stay and since he loves her so [email protected]@ed much, he should be there for her. Actually, don't do that. He will run for the hills and she won't have him in the back of her mind anymore and will put all the heat on you to take her back.


Honestly, I would bet that if OP calls J, he will tell him that they haven't been anything more than friends for years now. He'll probably offer the OP sympathy, knowing that his wife is a selfish nutcase, and feels sorry for him being married to her. I imagine he has absolutely no desire to rescuse her, or let her move in with him or get further involved with her.

Again though, this is all just a hunch.


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## Threeblessings

When people show you what they are really like, believe them. I think you are trying to convince yourself otherwise when you know what the probably outcome will be. Your wife is lucky to have a good husband, shame she is to blind to realise it.


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## Threeblessings

Orange375 said:


> Well - I still can't really believe it but I filed for divorce today. I feel awful, I feel like I am betraying her - yes, I know, I know, I shouldn't feel that way but I do. I even feel like I am betraying her family. I am totally against divorce and I am not doing it to even remotely get back at her, or to hurt her, or really for any reason other than to protect myself and to try and get out of a situation where a person is constantly hurting me. I can't believe this has actually gone on for 4 solid months, it definitely has been a brutal time.
> 
> I was pretty shocked and uncomfortable while doing this today with the lawyer. It was very simple and at the end I even asked - ok, so what am I supposed to do? He said nothing. He said the guy will call me a bit before he serves her with the papers, and that I need to be out of the house when he comes because if history means anything, she is going to go ballistic. Sad, makes me so sad, because I really do wish we could end this on calm respectful terms. Even if I am gone for that day and the following, I still have to go back to my house and I can't explain the anxiety I have about it. I know she is going to blame me, freak out on me. I really think in her mind, I ruined her fairy tale and that is why she is so angry. I gave her every piece of the puzzle she dreamed for, except I was the wrong guy and I think she hates me for not being able to be the guy she wanted so desperately. She has even told me that she is so sad because she doesn't think she will ever have a wedding (at least not like the one she had) again, and she is sad because it was used on me. If you're wondering how it felt to hear that - words can't describe.
> 
> So - for all of you out there with experience in this area - what am I supposed to do once she has been served? We are still living in the same house. What do I do in the mean time? What if she takes some of my things? What if she just loses it and is drunk all the time and bringing guys over etc - I guess call the police, but just wanted to hear what you all have to say.
> 
> The lawyer said not to tell her what was happening. It makes sense not to, but at the same time I don't want her to be surprised. I also don't want her family to be surprised. So painful, would not wish this on anyone. For those of you that go through this with children - I cannot fathom that.
> 
> Again - any words of wisdom, technical advice, etc is most appreciated. Thank you again.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Wishing you all the best. It took me a while to get around to signing divorce papers my husband picked up from the court house. He never understood why I couldn't sign them sooner - it was for all the reasons you raised about divorce. I signed them last week actually while my heart was pounding as he insisted on lodging them straight away. Because I didn't tick the 'joint' application box he won't lodge the forms now? and not until I pay half of the lodging fee????? A little off topic - but do you feel like you gave part of your life to the wrong person? Or is it just me that thinks and feels like this?


----------



## Sammy64

Threeblessings said:


> Wishing you all the best. It took me a while to get around to signing divorce papers my husband picked up from the court house. He never understood why I couldn't sign them sooner - it was for all the reasons you raised about divorce. I signed them last week actually while my heart was pounding as he insisted on lodging them straight away. Because I didn't tick the 'joint' application box he won't lodge the forms now? and not until I pay half of the lodging fee????? A little off topic - *but do you feel like you gave part of your life to the wrong person?* Or is it just me that thinks and feels like this?


That's a good question, and i would think that most (IMO) would say yes, including the OP... I know i can/would!!


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## Decorum

Consider having a trusted (male) person with you after she is served, or to check in, maybe stay over.

She may call police and make false violence charges.

Carry a voice activated recorder ( a VAR) with you when around her at all times, in order to protect yourself.

BTW if the typical pattern holds true that I see here, her and j have been having sex at least on n off again.

She will never admit it for reputation sake, and if she comes all sorry you will feel like believing her, dont! You will just be acting like a chump.

I am sorry.
Take care.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Orange375

Oh, where to start again....since being served with the divorce papers, she has sent me countless number of texts and called me so many times as well. I have not responded at all. I desperately want to respond because it is extremely emotional to read what she is saying, but at the same time, I am afraid to respond because what good will it do. Will I get hurt more? Will she just lie? How will I know if she is lying or telling me 90% truth and still leaving details out. Do I even want to know details? I already know for absolute fact that she was having an affair, so do I really want to sit there and ask her details of their sex? At the same time, I have this agonizing feeling of wonder and uncertainty that if I dont ever talk to her again, how will I feel about that in the future? Her texts have been interesting, at first they were filled with so much anger and mixed in with them was desperate attempts to get me to talk to her and endless begging to not get a divorce. On one hand I want her to feel the deep hurt that I do, but to be honest a big part of me wants to go rescue her and tell her that we can get through all of this and I am so glad she has changed her mind. But, even if she has "changed her mind now" I fear that something similar will happen in the future - which would be far more complicated assuming we have kids and intertwined finances (for those of you who have gone through that - I simply cannot imagine the nightmare, because my relatively simple situation has been hell). I have already said that now looking back through our entire relationship, it appears that she has cheated in addition to the one time I know about - so while her mind may be changed now, I can't imagine that she has changed? And I know I haven't changed, so what is to keep us from being back in this same spot down the road? She said so many things such as hating my family, always having feelings for the other guy, not enjoying sex with me, etc - its not that I am not willing to work through things, because I do believe marriage is forever, but at the same time - where would we even start? I mean its great she doesnt want a divorce now, but why? She already explained that she has issues with me. SO - I guess my main question is - her texts are starting to change and today they were by far the best yet. She admitted to lying to me, she said that she knows she is responsible for pushing me to this point, she knows that I need time, and she also said that she hopes I can forgive her whether we stay married or not because she doesn't want me to carry this with me for the rest of my life....I can't begin to explain the impact of emotions I feel when I read her words like this - because that is the person I married, and it is devastating to me that she feels SO close but so far at the same time....She has been begging me to talk to her, and has offered even meeting at our counselor if I would prefer that. Do you think I should meet with her to hear her out? Would I gain any closure? Is it possible that she would gain closure and I would walk out feeling even worse? Is there ANY chance that I should consider giving our marriage one last try? I do not want to be vulnerable to her but I know I am. I would even admit that I dread the day that the texts stop coming because then it will be like she really did give up / move on. I am so torn and so sad. As always, definitely appreciate your responses and advice. Thank you in advance.


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## Marc878

The thing you really need to think about is all the crap you've been through with her.

You were in love with who you thought she was which was a fantasy.

You filed for a reason. If you're smart you'll stay dark and move on. If not you'll live your life in accordance to her rules. In turmoil!

Wake up!!!!!!!!!!! And stay dark


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## Marc878

Tell her to Go to the OM. That's what her actions told you. 

She should be happy you arranged that for her.


----------



## the guy

Dude she said some really mean shyt to you......
I think you should stay away.

But I think if you do talk to her she will be that same women that throw things at you.

My point is maybe she just wants to hurt you some more which will help you let her go. I have a feeling the conversation will start with a lot of tears and end with some more hateful words when she doesn't get her way and doesn't want to listen to the truth.

Two things are for certain 1) she has not changed and 2) she is not going to like what you have to say.

I get one thing about your wife from what you posted...it's her way or the high way..... she is still trying to control things and now that she can no longer have her cake and eat it to she will be pissed.

So with that said why contact her?


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## turnera

ANY cheater who responds to getting outed with anger is a lost cause.

Period.

Move forward. Trust me, in a year or two, you won't have these feelings for her and you'll wonder why you were so weak 'back then' because she'll just be some woman who was part of your past, one of the people you used to go out with. And you'll be busy enjoying your life anyway. Keep that in mind.

ETA: Not to beat up on you, but please when you post again, break your text into paragraphs for our poor eyes!


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## JohnA

I think you said it best in your last post. Do not respond, if you do simply say:

"while I have grown and changed, I will never be J. You need to find your J, but with money,"


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## LongWalk

Only had to read your first post to know the right course of action. You are pursuing it now. Keep in mind that your wife may have some personality disorder. You need to escape her. 

Make sure your future relationships do not follow the same pattern


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## Rottdad42

IMHO you should view this as a bad judgement call. Your SO, has multiple issues, one worse than the other. How are you ever able, to get the truth from her about this J fellow. For me in a marriage you must have trust, respect and kindness. Emphasis on kindness. How will you ever be able to handle the hard roads of parenting, when she won't commit to the marrige. You must look from the outside in and see this for what it is. I don't know your age, it sounds like 30ish. By now you know what you want in life, what your needs, expectations, desires, likes, dislikes, fears and what makes you happy. Are you.....happy. Your story really sounds like misery, to me.

Ask yourself is this what you want. If you bring kids into this equation, it will only go from bad to worse in a nano second. You sound like your head is on straight, in regards to career, home purchase etc. IMHO you must leave. Go and find that woman, who has the same life goals as you. Those ladies are out there and yearn to have a good guy. If I can do it at 40, so can you. Good luck.


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## Rottdad42

Well I finally read enough. Before I responded after a few pages. Serving her papers, asking her to move out, is a smart move. She needs to feel the reality of all this. Sorry to say this but she needs to feel your pain. What she has done can't be fixed, ever. There is not enough love, patience, understanding, sympathy, empathy or give a crap time in your life. You are 26, plenty of time to find and foster a wonderful arelationship, with a woman who has her head on straight.


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## Keepin-my-head-up

If it makes you feel any better, just know this.
She wanted to love you, she just can't.

She can idolize you to the moon and back but she can never love you.

You are the ideal she wants: driven, on a path to success, able to focus on goals, etc...
You just aren't the MAN she wants.

She may even respect you.
She told you marrying her would be settling for you, that you should leave, that she is no good for you, etc...
Her actions show that her words are true.

If you love her, you have to let her go because she will always wonder what if...

You on the other hand will be married to a woman who does all these things to you and is wondering what if...
Add years or decades of resentment to that and you get a picture of your future


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## leon1

Definitely dont meet with her ,it would only give her a chance to say more horrible things to you .If you have to meet her in future , make sure to have someone with you .She really is crazy so dont ever be alone with her , who knows what lies she could come up with .


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## cdbaker

Here is something I said last week that I think is still relevant here: "The only solution to that is to stand up to her. No I don't mean tell her off or make any demands of her or anything like that, but simply to stand up and say that you aren't going to live this way, that you want her out asap if she can't honor her commitments and respect you, *and then ignore her rants and texts and anger*, etc. Basically, let her live with the ramifications of her choices, while you go on about your life rebuilding.

Honestly, don't worry about your doubts right now. Filing for divorce was the right move, and remember, most divorces take months to finalize so if you start right away on the 180 with your wife, there is always a chance that she will wake up and consider changing before it's final."

She reacted exactly as many of us predicted. A completely self-centered person who really genuinely doesn't care about your feelings will react to your bold steps of putting an end to her antics and shining a light on them with *ANGER.* Why? Because ALL she cares about is herself and her desires, she feels she owes you nothing, and that you should buy her lies. A typical cheater who gets caught will react with feelings/words of fear, shame and guilt. They might lie and try to cover their tracks or make excuses or divert blame or beg for mercy, etc. A cheater who doesn't care about their spouse anymore and hasn't for a long time however reacts with anger. That's the issue.

She had a good deal going. She had you in the background working hard to be her security blanket, do your best to meet her needs, while she could focus her time/energy on finding other male prospects who she felt might be better equipped to meet her needs. She felt entitled to that, like she deserves that and you owe it to her. So instead her first reaction is ANGER. I've seen this well myself. I remember the first time I found out about my wife's first affair, I did so when my suspicions mounted until I decided to check her phone's text messages which she hadn't yet deleted that day. Her reaction when I confronted her? Intense anger for violating her privacy but checking her phone. Lol. It's hilariously ridiculous, right??

So yes, in your case, she's running through the gamut of defensive emotions. It starts with anger of course in her situation. Then it'll pass into blame, trying to pass the buck, defend her actions, twist her story a bit. Then maybe pass into really minor confessions or admissions of guilt, or maybe suggestions of mutual responsibility. At some point she probably tries to play the sympathy card, like how she knows what she did was wrong but she was hurting so much because you work too much, or her parents screwed her up when she was younger, or she's depressed, or whatever. Eventually she probably says something about how she's "been thinking about it" and "now" realizes that she was wrong and she's had some magical epiphany and wants to turn everything around with you. You might pay close attention to that stage, because she'll probably say all of that with an attitude that suggests she believes you'll whole-heartedly welcome this final response because she believes it's what you wanted to hear all along.

The idea is that she is mentally treating the whole issue like a used car negotiation. Her only goal here is to get you back into your role of security blanket and upset her life as minimally as possible. (Wants to pay the lowest price for the car) She starts with what has worked best in the past and requires the least effort (lies, blame shifting), and each following step involves her surrendering just a bit more effort (sympathy card, minor confessions of guilt) until eventually giving in to what she thinks you really want. (Admitting responsibility, sudden epiphany, wanting to work at it, asking forgiveness) It's like a used car negotiation, where she keeps raising her offer little by little, as she is purely focused on herself, she wants the absolute lowest personal cost possible.

So I go back to my initial recommendation. Let her run through all her attempts at getting you back into line. Stay true to the 180 and don't respond to any of her nonsense. I would continue to ignore her outside of any basic communication like if she asks you if you paid a bill yet or where to take the car for a repair or things like that. Let her sit and start to believe and accept that you are genuinely not going to buy her BS any longer, that she isn't going to just be able to fool you back into line again, that her cake eating and rug sweeping days are TRULY over. Let her realize that her life with you is really probably over, and ultimately that she deserves it. This will likely take weeks and months.

I know you hope to save your marriage IF it is save-able. So the only piece of hope I might give you is to remind you that the divorce process takes a long time. If you think she's making any personal progress, DO NOT give her any hope that you'll take her back, but feel free to ensure that the process does take some time so that she has some time to truly prove that she is willing to do whatever it takes to change. I know with my divorce process, I filed a series of extensions (continuances) for more time. If you feel like there is hope after a month or two, and she's still taking productive steps to figure herself out, THEN maybe you could consent to marriage counseling. But again, don't agree to anything right now when her real primary focus isn't on saving the marriage or actually becoming a better wife, but purely on getting back the cake eating life she has had.


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## Orange375

Cdbaker - thank you SO much for your reply - you would not believe how incredibly accurate your words are. She has actually said some of those exact things!

She continues to text me several times per day. Many of them begging for me back and assuring me that she is now the wife I always wanted, and begging for forgiveness. In those texts she is right in that she is saying everything I did always want from her....but how do I know if I can really believe them? 
Also - what happened with her feelings for J ? She flat out told me in one of her melt downs that she has always thought about him for our entire relationship and even called him a month before the wedding and told him she wanted to be with him. So how do all those emotions disappear? 

And yet - some of her texts are still almost mean and some of them are saying things like I know you are better than this, you aren't being the man I married, I was right all along that you didn't really love me, you try to be a good person but you're not, etc. She also keeps telling me that so many people have told her that I nearly called off the engagement and it hurts her now because she always thought I didn't like her and now she knows it was true.....did I actually consider calling it off? No. Did I ask various people if her behavior and reactions to things was normal or if I should be concerned? Yes. Did I have concerns and worries about our relationship? You bet. Who wouldn't when your fiancé is throwing her ring off and screaming at you and demanding that you not marry her because you don't actually like her. Of course those things made me think twice, but in the end I weighed the good with the bad and always felt the good outweighed the bad. 

I think it is interesting she is now claiming that I misled her because of my concerns about marriage - as if that somehow made me a dishonest person....but during the engagement she was the one that threw her ring off, screamed and demanded not to marry her, called another guy and told him if he would pay her dad back she would be with him - ummmm - wouldn't she be the one that had doubts?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

> I know you are better than this


Utter manipulation and self-centeredness. 

Every time I've seen a cheater say this to the betrayed, there is no real remorse. Only wanting to get back what THEY lost. There is no room for anger from a 'former' cheater.


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## Orange375

I have been surprised that she still sends messages with anger / meanness in them - I would think by now even if only to better manipulate me - she would be beyond nice. Why wouldn't she be beyond nice to me? She obviously has not problem lying, so why not? 

Also - if she is truly trying to get her life with me back - what does that look like in her mind? Does she even have intentions of stopping the relationship with J? Or does she want me at home and him on the side forever? Just seems crazy to me that if she doesn't want me, and wants someone else - then why drag it out any longer with me? 

It makes me sick to think that while she is texting me all this stuff, I would have to imagine that she is still having a relationship with him like nothing is wrong because if it really does end with me, I think in her mind she has to at least have a back up. What do you all think?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

She is just expressing her selfish gene insecurity openly, trying to get you to "fight" for her, so that she can choose. It's all about her choice. And apparently she doesn't even wish to cease comparing possible mates. What's in this for you?


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## ArmyofJuan

Orange375 said:


> I have been surprised that she still sends messages with anger / meanness in them - I would think by now even if only to better manipulate me - she would be beyond nice. Why wouldn't she be beyond nice to me? She obviously has not problem lying, so why not?


She doesn't respect you and is trying to bully you. Women can't love men they don't respect.

If she was truly remorseful she wouldn't dream of saying anything mean to you and risk you walking away. She must have a strong sense of entitlement to think she can manipulate you like that. Her reactions like this tell me there that your marriage is done and never stood a chance. 



> Also - if she is truly trying to get her life with me back - what does that look like in her mind? Does she even have intentions of stopping the relationship with J? Or does she want me at home and him on the side forever? Just seems crazy to me that if she doesn't want me, and wants someone else - then why drag it out any longer with me?


She wants you for stability and probably thinks you'd be a good father, she wants him for everything else. If she was to ever get pregnant dollar to donuts it would end up being the OM's.



> It makes me sick to think that while she is texting me all this stuff, I would have to imagine that she is still having a relationship with him like nothing is wrong because if it really does end with me, I think in her mind she has to at least have a back up. What do you all think?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think you are being used and she never really wanted to get married but felt pressured to.

I'm sure she wants a divorce (nothing has really changed as you said) its just she wants it on HER terms, not yours. You taking the initiative and filing first screwed everything up for her because she never thought you'd take control. She's in shock and trying to gain control back by any means and if she does you'll be right back to square one again.

You can't save her from herself, she is where she is at because of her actions and she deserves to be there. Don't feel sorry for her, this is 100% her fault. The fact she wasn't as mentally prepared for it as she thought is not your problem.


----------



## Heatherknows

Orange375 said:


> Cdbaker - thank you SO much for your reply - you would not believe how incredibly accurate your words are. She has actually said some of those exact things!
> 
> She continues to text me several times per day. Many of them begging for me back and assuring me that she is now the wife I always wanted, and begging for forgiveness. In those texts she is right in that she is saying everything I did always want from her....but how do I know if I can really believe them?
> Also - what happened with her feelings for J ? She flat out told me in one of her melt downs that she has always thought about him for our entire relationship and even called him a month before the wedding and told him she wanted to be with him. So how do all those emotions disappear?
> 
> And yet - some of her texts are still almost mean and some of them are saying things like I know you are better than this, you aren't being the man I married, I was right all along that you didn't really love me, you try to be a good person but you're not, etc. She also keeps telling me that so many people have told her that I nearly called off the engagement and it hurts her now because she always thought I didn't like her and now she knows it was true.....did I actually consider calling it off? No. Did I ask various people if her behavior and reactions to things was normal or if I should be concerned? Yes. Did I have concerns and worries about our relationship? You bet. Who wouldn't when your fiancé is throwing her ring off and screaming at you and demanding that you not marry her because you don't actually like her. Of course those things made me think twice, but in the end I weighed the good with the bad and always felt the good outweighed the bad.
> 
> I think it is interesting she is now claiming that I misled her because of my concerns about marriage - as if that somehow made me a dishonest person....but during the engagement she was the one that threw her ring off, screamed and demanded not to marry her, called another guy and told him if he would pay her dad back she would be with him - ummmm - wouldn't she be the one that had doubts?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You and your wife are too young for all this drama. You don't have enough time invested in the marriage. You're both very immature and need to separate. Grow a bit. Experience life more. Then in about five years reconsider marriage...but not with each other.


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## Orange375

Do you think with a different person she will be the great and faithful wife that I once thought she could be? Or is it actually something wrong with her? 

Reason I ask is because I keep thinking about my role in this. I keep reading that while it isn't my fault she cheated, it could have been my fault that got her to the point that she considered cheating. 

I see a lot of responses that say things to all the people that got cheated on like now is the time to improve yourself, go to the gym, read some self help books, etc. is that just a nice way of saying "had you done these things all along, you wouldn't be in this spot" ? 

I guess my question is - is there a guy out there that is going to act a particular way, say / do things at the right time that will cause her to be faithful and awesome wife? Or is it her that had to change? Because if it's only the guy, then that's definitely harder to accept, because then it makes me feel like I should have done things differently and then we wouldn't be in this position. 

Not sure I articulated that well, but hopefully somebody understands what I'm getting at.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Heatherknows

Orange375 said:


> Do you think with a different person she will be the great and faithful wife that I once thought she could be? Or is it actually something wrong with her?
> 
> Reason I ask is because I keep thinking about my role in this. I keep reading that while it isn't my fault she cheated, it could have been my fault that got her to the point that she considered cheating.
> 
> I see a lot of responses that say things to all the people that got cheated on like now is the time to improve yourself, go to the gym, read some self help books, etc. is that just a nice way of saying "had you done these things all along, you wouldn't be in this spot" ?
> 
> I guess my question is - is there a guy out there that is going to act a particular way, say / do things at the right time that will cause her to be faithful and awesome wife? Or is it her that had to change? Because if it's only the guy, then that's definitely harder to accept, because then it makes me feel like I should have done things differently and then we wouldn't be in this position.
> 
> Not sure I articulated that well, but hopefully somebody understands what I'm getting at.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It sounds like your asking "Am I good enough?"


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## arbitrator

Orange375 said:


> I have been surprised that she still sends messages with anger / meanness in them - I would think by now even if only to better manipulate me - she would be beyond nice. Why wouldn't she be beyond nice to me? She obviously has not problem lying, so why not?
> 
> Also - if she is truly trying to get her life with me back - what does that look like in her mind? Does she even have intentions of stopping the relationship with J? Or does she want me at home and him on the side forever? Just seems crazy to me that if she doesn't want me, and wants someone else - then why drag it out any longer with me?
> 
> It makes me sick to think that while she is texting me all this stuff, I would have to imagine that she is still having a relationship with him like nothing is wrong because if it really does end with me, I think in her mind she has to at least have a back up. What do you all think?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


*Quit reading those toxic texts of hers and never even bother to open them! Hell, I'd go as far as disabling my phone from ever receiving any more of them!

Let's just say that you simply don't need and certainly don't deserve any more of that loathsome crap of hers!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

Orange375 said:


> Do you think with a different person she will be the great and faithful wife that I once thought she could be? Or is it actually something wrong with her?
> 
> Reason I ask is because I keep thinking about my role in this. I keep reading that while it isn't my fault she cheated, it could have been my fault that got her to the point that she considered cheating.
> 
> I see a lot of responses that say things to all the people that got cheated on like now is the time to improve yourself, go to the gym, read some self help books, etc. is that just a nice way of saying "had you done these things all along, you wouldn't be in this spot" ?
> 
> I guess my question is - is there a guy out there that is going to act a particular way, say / do things at the right time that will cause her to be faithful and awesome wife? Or is it her that had to change? Because if it's only the guy, then that's definitely harder to accept, because then it makes me feel like I should have done things differently and then we wouldn't be in this position.
> 
> Not sure I articulated that well, but hopefully somebody understands what I'm getting at.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Have you googled borderline personality disorder? Many folks here have had to deal with spouses like this and yours seem to fit the pattern.


----------



## Keepin-my-head-up

Heatherknows said:


> Orange375 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think with a different person she will be the great and faithful wife that I once thought she could be? Or is it actually something wrong with her?
> 
> Reason I ask is because I keep thinking about my role in this. I keep reading that while it isn't my fault she cheated, it could have been my fault that got her to the point that she considered cheating.
> 
> I see a lot of responses that say things to all the people that got cheated on like now is the time to improve yourself, go to the gym, read some self help books, etc. is that just a nice way of saying "had you done these things all along, you wouldn't be in this spot" ?
> 
> I guess my question is - is there a guy out there that is going to act a particular way, say / do things at the right time that will cause her to be faithful and awesome wife? Or is it her that had to change? Because if it's only the guy, then that's definitely harder to accept, because then it makes me feel like I should have done things differently and then we wouldn't be in this position.
> 
> Not sure I articulated that well, but hopefully somebody understands what I'm getting at.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> 
> 
> It sounds like your asking "Am I good enough?"
Click to expand...


It sure does sound like he is asking that.

Women like different types of guys.
Some like bad boys, scholars, bodybuilders, surfers, funny, broody,etc...
You ain't gonna be team jacob,team,Edward and team Jimmy Fallon all at one time.

So when you work out, get a haircut,etc...
It is to become who you wanted to be and get out of the funk.
Also, working out makes you feel better, gets you moving around and such.


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## Evinrude58

Will she be a great wife and faithful to the next guy? Come on, man, you know the answer to this. Of course not. SHe is a person that will never be content. 
Now, the truth is----- WHO GIVES A S*** What she is with the next guy? Stop worrying about it and get yourself a good woman that will.


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## Satya

Orange375 said:


> I have been surprised that she still sends messages with anger / meanness in them - I would think by now even if only to better manipulate me - she would be beyond nice. Why wouldn't she be beyond nice to me? She obviously has not problem lying, so why not?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You are looking for a logical reaction from an illogical person. By finding many faults with you, whether true or not, it provides her with an easy means to avoid responsibility for and introspection into her own failings. Because in her mind she is without them, so she must behave in any way that eliminates or takes the spotlight from them. Hence why I say illogical.


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## Evinrude58

Ask yourself why you even read her crappy, mean messages. You are doing yourself a great favor, even if it is hard to do at first, if you DO NOT read her messages, talk to her, allow her to see you, or have any contact with her in any way. You'll find that it is very hurtful to see her, talk to her, read her texts, email, etc.---- it will put you in a bad place in your mind. That's why NO CONTACT is what is best, whether you heed that advice or not.

Tell your mind that this relationship is over enough times, eventually you'll believe it. But it will take a long time.


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## Uptown

Orange375 said:


> Or is it actually something wrong with her?


Orange, I agree with *Chaparral* that many behaviors you describe -- e.g., event-triggered irrational anger, controlling behavior, lack of empathy, and always being "The Victim" -- are some of the classic warning signs for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). And, to a lesser extent, you also are describing some red flags for narcissism. Importantly, I'm not suggesting your W has full-blown BPD but, rather, that she might exhibit strong traits of it.

I therefore suggest you take a quick look at my list of _*18 BPD Warning Signs*_. If most sound very familiar, I would suggest you read my more detailed description of them at my posts in _*Maybe's Thread*_. If that description rings any bells, I would be glad to join *Chaparral* and the other respondents in discussing them with you. And I would be glad to suggest some excellent online articles giving tips on how to leave a BPDer (i.e., a person having BPD strong traits).

Significantly, learning to spot these warning signs will NOT enable you to diagnose your W's issues. Only a professional can do that. Yet, like learning warning signs for stroke and heart attack, learning those for BPD may help you avoid prolonging a very painful experience -- i.e., avoid taking her back and avoid running into the arms of another woman just like her. Take care, Orange.


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## Orange375

Uptown - wow, I did your suggested reading and that is incredible - she matches nearly all of them. She had always told me that she doesn't really remember her childhood. It wasn't that she decided to forget it, but it was more like she just didn't. I don't know of any specific abuse but she always said that it wasn't a big deal she didn't remember it because her mom was so bad to the family. Her mom was a school teacher and while she supposedly did well at work, she came home and pretty much went straight to bed. To my knowledge she has always been on pain pills and anti depressants - and always treated the husband with little respect. After reading about this, it sounds like the trauma she experienced when she was young severely messed up her emotional development. She definitely did not give me the emotional love and reassurance I always craved, but I guess I just told myself that everybody is different and she just didn't show her love that way.

A few months ago we were sitting on the couch and actually having a decent conversation about our situation and while crying which she nearly never does about anything - she actually complained that she felt like she was going crazy because one minute she is happy and the next she is so angry at me she couldn't stand it, like it overwhelmed her entire mind with intense anger over even trivial things. I thought it was a turning point because she finally was seeing and admitting to what I had been dealing with, but it went nowhere. 

She is now down to just sending me a few texts per day. One of her sisters tried to call me today and the other texted me asking to please communicate with my wife. I didn't reply to either because I just don't see how anything positive could possibly come from it. 

As always, thank you for the replies and thoughts, you all are awesome.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marc878

If you're smart you'll go dark get this out of your life and make a new one.

You are better than what you are getting out of this.

Move on or accept this as what the rest of your life will be like if you stay with her.

How's it working for you so far????


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## Uptown

Orange375 said:


> I am SO AGAINST divorce.


Strictly speaking, Orange, you won't be "divorcing" her in any real sense. Rather, you will simply be returning the young lady to her parents. If you're married to a woman having the emotional development of a four year old, you effectively have a _parent/child _relationship, not a _husband/wife_ relationship.



> A few months ago... she finally was seeing and admitting to what I had been dealing with, but it went nowhere.


Orange, if she is a BPDer as you suspect, the behavior you're describing here is called "moments of clarity." In the 15 years I was married to my BPDer exW, I witnessed her having such moments perhaps 4 or 5 times. They typically lasted about a day following a crisis and, as you say, _"it went nowhere." _ The reason is that a BPDer's subconscious works 24/7 protecting her fragile ego from seeing too much of reality. 

It accomplishes this by projecting her fears and painful thoughts onto YOU, with the result that -- on a conscious level -- she will absolutely believe that the hurtful thoughts and feelings are originating from YOU. This is why you will hear a BPDer make allegations so outrageous, and so removed from reality, that you will simply marvel that an adult woman can keep a straight face while saying such absurd things. And then -- a week or a month later -- she will say the exact opposite and be just as convinced it is true too. This is why BPD is said to constitute a "thought distortion."



> While her mind may be changed now, I can't imagine that she has changed?


If she is a BPDer, it is likely that her views and intentions actually have changed dramatically. Yet, the problem is not that she _won't change_ but, rather, that she _won't stop changing_. This is the way emotionally unstable people behave. Like smokers who are always throwing away their last packs and "quitting," BPDers typically will be seen making dramatic improvements -- every six weeks or so -- in their behavior. What you're seeing, however, is simply another temporary upswing in the unending roller coaster ride.



> She has offered even meeting at our counselor if I would prefer that.


If your W has strong BPD traits, going to a marriage counselor likely will be a total waste of time until she has had several years (at least) of therapy from a psychologist who is trained in treating BPDers. Although MCs typically are good at teaching couples better communication skills, a BPDer's issues go far beyond a simple lack of such skills.



> What happened with her feelings for J? ...how do all those emotions disappear?


If she is a BPDer, the feelings don't really disappear. Instead, what happens is that the BPDer's conscious mind loses touch with them because the subconscious mind -- always trying to protect her fragile ego -- places those feelings out of reach of her conscious mind. This occurs because BPDers are too immature to tolerate having to deal with strong conflicting feelings at the same time. 

Their easy solution is to simply place the conflicting feelings out of reach by the conscious mind. Then, when that conflicting feeling becomes triggered hours or weeks later, a BPDer will be only in touch with it at a conscious level. This is how young children and adult BPDers are able to flip, in just ten seconds, between hating and loving someone.

To a lesser extent, all adults do this "splitting," where certain feelings are split off and put out of reach by the conscious mind. Indeed, our brains are hard wired to shift to splitting whenever we are suddenly startled or under great stress. For example, when you're in a crosswalk and suddenly look up to see a truck bearing down on you, your mind is no longer capable of deep logic. Instead, you can only think "jump left" or "jump right." 

This splitting, then, is the source of the black-white thinking we all are prone to do when our feelings are intense. This is why our judgment goes out the window whenever we are very angry or infatuated. Well, BPDers do this too. Only it is times 20 or 30 with them.



> In an effort to more than assure her that I am not using her for sex... I say no problem [to her demand for a cessation of sexual activity].


This doormat behavior of yours is called "walking on eggshells." It is done a lot by the partners of BPDers. This is why the #1 best-selling BPD book (targeted to those abused partners) is called _*Stop Walking on Eggshells*._



> She kept saying how much she hated me.... Her texts are filled with endless begging to not get a divorce.


This apparent contradiction -- of hating you but not wanting you to leave -- is why the #2 best-selling BPD book is titled _*I Hate You, Don't Leave Me*!_ Because a BPDer has such a fragile, weak sense of who she is, she desperately needs to live with someone who will supply that missing sense of identity. This is why BPDers HATE to be alone. They don't even have "themselves" to keep them company. 

Hence, if your W is a BPDer, she likely is more attracted to "the relationship" than she is to your unique attributes as an individual. This is one reason why, after you two have divorced, she likely will quickly find someone new. That new guy will not so much be replacing "you" as he will be reestablishing "the relationship" in which she gets her "identity" back. 

Moreover, don't be surprised if you learn that he doesn't look or behave anything like you. Because a BPDer has very little sense of who she is, she has a lifetime of experience of learning how to fit in and adapt to the various personalities of widely different types of people.



> I have dated very sweet, pretty girls in the past, that probably would never have done this to me - but they absolutely bore me to death.


Like you, Orange, I tend to walk right on past all the emotionally available women (BORING!) until I find one who desperately needs me. As you said earlier, _"a big part of me wants to go rescue her."_ Significantly, these women do not have to lay traps to catch us. Nor do they have to seek us out. The reason is that we are so empathetic that we can spot their vulnerability across a crowded room. That vulnerability is "catnip" to us.

Our problem is not that we want to help people. Rather, it is that we keep trying to help even when it is to our great detriment to do so -- and even when it is impossible to help them -- and even when our enabling behavior is actually harming them by protecting them from suffering the logical consequences of their own bad decisions. Specifically, our problem is that our desire to be needed (for what we can do) far exceeds our desire to be loved (for the men we already are). The best explanation of this I've seen is Shari Schreiber's blog article at *Do You Love to be Needed, or Need to be Loved?* 



> I think she is going to go ballistic....What am I supposed to do once she has been served? What if she takes some of my things?


If your W actually is a BPDer, she likely will become very vindictive during the divorce process. She likely will "split you black," i.e., perceiving you as Hitler incarnate and treating you accordingly. My exW, for example, had me arrested on a bogus charge and thrown into jail. By the time I got before a judge and released (3 days later), she had already obtained a R/O barring me from returning to my own home for 18 months (the time it takes to get a D in this State).

Hence, if you still believe you're seeing strong red flags for BPD, I suggest you read the book, _*Splitting: Protecting Yourself while Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder*._ I also recommend two online articles: *Surviving a Breakup with Someone Suffering with BPD* (Article 9) and *Leaving a Partner with BPD* (Article 10). Both are at the "Articles" page of BPDfamily. While you're at that website, it would be prudent to take a look at the "Leaving" message board.

But please don't forget the numerous members at this TAM forum who have lived with BPDers and other abusive partners. We want to keep trying to answer your questions and providing emotional support as long as you find our shared experiences helpful. Moreover, by sharing your own experiences here, you likely are helping many other members and lurkers. Your thread has already attracted nearly 6,000 views in only three weeks.


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## Orange375

I went by my house today to grab a shirt, and I saw a black hand towel laying on the couch, with what appeared to be dried cum all over it - as if it was purposely left right in the open for me to find. I was shaking and even several hours later i am distraught. I have always feared her having sex with him in our house because I have no intention of selling the house or my furniture but now I don't know how I could possibly stay and not think about it every time I see it. I know she knows this and I'm sure that's why she did this. I want desperately to lie to myself and say it has to be something else on the towel, but I sadly know better. I'm starting to worry I'm not going to be okay after this. Just so painful.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Keepin-my-head-up

Orange375 said:


> I went by my house today to grab a shirt, and I saw a black hand towel laying on the couch, with what appeared to be dried cum all over it - as if it was purposely left right in the open for me to find. I was shaking and even several hours later i am distraught. I have always feared her having sex with him in our house because I have no intention of selling the house or my furniture but now I don't know how I could possibly stay and not think about it every time I see it. I know she knows this and I'm sure that's why she did this. I want desperately to lie to myself and say it has to be something else on the towel, but I sadly know better. I'm starting to worry I'm not going to be okay after this. Just so painful.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The worst you can do is to stay and become numb to the pain.
Become a shell of who you are and can be because all your focus and energy is used to deal with this.


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## tech-novelist

Orange375 said:


> I went by my house today to grab a shirt, and I saw a black hand towel laying on the couch, with what appeared to be dried cum all over it - as if it was purposely left right in the open for me to find. I was shaking and even several hours later i am distraught. I have always feared her having sex with him in our house because I have no intention of selling the house or my furniture but now I don't know how I could possibly stay and not think about it every time I see it. I know she knows this and I'm sure that's why she did this. I want desperately to lie to myself and say it has to be something else on the towel, but I sadly know better. I'm starting to worry I'm not going to be okay after this. Just so painful.


Once you get away from her you will be amazed at how much better you feel, not having to walk on eggshells anymore.


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## Marc878

Orange375 said:


> I went by my house today to grab a shirt, and I saw a black hand towel laying on the couch, with what appeared to be dried cum all over it - as if it was purposely left right in the open for me to find. I was shaking and even several hours later i am distraught. I have always feared her having sex with him in our house because I have no intention of selling the house or my furniture but now I don't know how I could possibly stay and not think about it every time I see it. I know she knows this and I'm sure that's why she did this. I want desperately to lie to myself and say it has to be something else on the towel, but I sadly know better. I'm starting to worry I'm not going to be okay after this. Just so painful.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She rubbing your face in it now.


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## Orange375

Obviously - but what do I do? Do I try and convince myself it's not a big deal or do I have to move or is that too extreme or ? I feel so trapped and SO upset that even after this is over, she still has the power to cause my pain by doing these things now. How do I cope? If I could even convince myself that I shouldn't be that upset about it, that also bothers me a lot because it's like I'm rug sweeping it and once again being walked on. What should I be thinking? What do I do?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

A lighter is a wonderous thing.


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## tech-novelist

Orange375 said:


> Obviously - but what do I do? Do I try and convince myself it's not a big deal or do I have to move or is that too extreme or ? I feel so trapped and SO upset that even after this is over, she still has the power to cause my pain by doing these things now. How do I cope? If I could even convince myself that I shouldn't be that upset about it, that also bothers me a lot because it's like I'm rug sweeping it and once again being walked on. What should I be thinking? What do I do?


What do you do? Get rid of her as soon as possible. Then you will see that your life doesn't have to be like this.


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## Marduk

Orange375 said:


> Obviously - but what do I do? Do I try and convince myself it's not a big deal or do I have to move or is that too extreme or ? I feel so trapped and SO upset that even after this is over, she still has the power to cause my pain by doing these things now. How do I cope? If I could even convince myself that I shouldn't be that upset about it, that also bothers me a lot because it's like I'm rug sweeping it and once again being walked on. What should I be thinking? What do I do?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If the only answer to your question was to exit this woman from your life, forever... 

Would you listen to that?


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## Marc878

Orange375 said:


> Obviously - but what do I do? Do I try and convince myself it's not a big deal or do I have to move or is that too extreme or ? I feel so trapped and SO upset that even after this is over, she still has the power to cause my pain by doing these things now. How do I cope? If I could even convince myself that I shouldn't be that upset about it, that also bothers me a lot because it's like I'm rug sweeping it and once again being walked on. What should I be thinking? What do I do?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Listen to yourself. If you don't respect yourself no one will.

Why don't you try being a man for a change. This is utterly ridiculous.

When she became violent you should have gotten a restraining order.

You are where you are because you are to weak and ineffective to run your own life. 

WHY???????


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## TheTruthHurts

Confession - I only read page 1 of 13. I couldn't take any more.

I have a couple of boys who are about to go to college. Since they're really good kids - cause of mom - my biggest fear is they will get eaten alive by some wretched girl and have ZERO CLUE that a selfish, self-centered, entitled, immature, ****ty (i.e. Sleeping around behind their backs), lying, back-stabbing, beoch DOESN'T have the same moral campus and operate from the same set of rules as good kids do.

In other words - the wretched ho-bag that is dragging you around by your short hairs! This is my worst nightmare, because "good kids" won't want to believe people actually operate this way!

Admittedly somewhere in the past 13 pages that I couldn't stand to read, you might have praised her sterling qualities... But barring that - RUN AND DONT LOOK BACK!

There is nothing to look back at except the line of guys she'll leave in the ditch along side the trail of condoms (if they're lucky)

I would love someone to flame me for not reading and telling me you grew a pair and have started the divorce. Please, some one... Anyone...


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## turnera

Orange, right now your best friend is a good therapist. Do what he/she says to do.


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## cdbaker

Orange375 said:


> Cdbaker - thank you SO much for your reply - you would not believe how incredibly accurate your words are. She has actually said some of those exact things!
> 
> She continues to text me several times per day. Many of them begging for me back and assuring me that she is now the wife I always wanted, and begging for forgiveness. In those texts she is right in that she is saying everything I did always want from her....but how do I know if I can really believe them?
> Also - what happened with her feelings for J ? She flat out told me in one of her melt downs that she has always thought about him for our entire relationship and even called him a month before the wedding and told him she wanted to be with him. So how do all those emotions disappear?
> 
> And yet - some of her texts are still almost mean and some of them are saying things like I know you are better than this, you aren't being the man I married, I was right all along that you didn't really love me, you try to be a good person but you're not, etc. She also keeps telling me that so many people have told her that I nearly called off the engagement and it hurts her now because she always thought I didn't like her and now she knows it was true.....did I actually consider calling it off? No. Did I ask various people if her behavior and reactions to things was normal or if I should be concerned? Yes. Did I have concerns and worries about our relationship? You bet. Who wouldn't when your fiancé is throwing her ring off and screaming at you and demanding that you not marry her because you don't actually like her. Of course those things made me think twice, but in the end I weighed the good with the bad and always felt the good outweighed the bad.
> 
> I think it is interesting she is now claiming that I misled her because of my concerns about marriage - as if that somehow made me a dishonest person....but during the engagement she was the one that threw her ring off, screamed and demanded not to marry her, called another guy and told him if he would pay her dad back she would be with him - ummmm - wouldn't she be the one that had doubts?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know I'm late here, but I'll respond anyway. At least at the time you wrote this post above, she is still in panic mode. All she cares about at the moment is how to restore the situation that she desires. For her, she's probably trying out like six different strategies simultaneously. Pleading. Apologizing. Claims of "I've changed!", which you should know is completely impossible in such a short period of time, and can't be true if she's still trying other strategies to get you back. Guilt tripping, like saying things like, "You're better than this, you wouldn't be so cruel as to not give me another chance, you promised to remain with me in sickness and in health, etc." Trying to blame you for what she's done, pointing out little failures of yours in the past or talking about your fear/doubt before the marriage and trying to present these as being somewhat responsible for her actions or perhaps almost as bad as them. Occasionally, you'll still see that big of anger in her voice/attitude, even though she's still trying to hide it.

You honestly just can't believe anything she says at this point. Everything she says is said with the goal of convincing you to come back and restore the status quo as she wants it to be. She's just trying any idea she can think of to see what sticks.



Orange375 said:


> Do you think with a different person she will be the great and faithful wife that I once thought she could be? Or is it actually something wrong with her?
> 
> Reason I ask is because I keep thinking about my role in this. I keep reading that while it isn't my fault she cheated, it could have been my fault that got her to the point that she considered cheating.
> 
> I see a lot of responses that say things to all the people that got cheated on like now is the time to improve yourself, go to the gym, read some self help books, etc. is that just a nice way of saying "had you done these things all along, you wouldn't be in this spot" ?
> 
> I guess my question is - is there a guy out there that is going to act a particular way, say / do things at the right time that will cause her to be faithful and awesome wife? Or is it her that had to change? Because if it's only the guy, then that's definitely harder to accept, because then it makes me feel like I should have done things differently and then we wouldn't be in this position.
> 
> Not sure I articulated that well, but hopefully somebody understands what I'm getting at.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Man I understand exactly what you're talking about. With my wife, it kept me waiting for her because I kept thinking... "I can divorce her, move on, find someone new to start over with and ya know, hopefully it will work out. What will my wife do? Go find someone else and do the same thing? Will she have learned from this experience and be a good faithful spouse to him, having realized her mistakes? If so, why couldn't she and I build a new marriage together instead?" I loved my wife and didn't want to start over with someone else, so I tried to determine if it was possible for her to change.

Secondly, blame. No of course you aren't responsible for her actions or her behavior. With that said, are there things you did, decisions you made, etc., that might have contributed to putting her in a position where a decision to cheat was easier and or more desirable to her? You know... probably. If for no other reason than the fact that you probably aren't a perfect person. If you were to treat your wife like garbage for years, abuse her, show her absolutely no love or kindness, then another man comes along and compliments her a few times and offers to take her out to eat and suddenly she's in an affair... then did your actions leave her more vulnerable to cheating? Yes absolutely. Can you blame her for cheating at that point? Yes, but maybe not completely. Is what she did still wrong? Yes it is, period.

Ultimately I think it's irrelevant at this point however, again because of the way she's responded with anger. Responding to getting caught by getting angry is the surest sign that she long ago lost any sense of guilt or shame for what she's doing, and that she feels deserving/entitled to her adulterous fun, that your feelings stopped being important to her a long time ago.


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## HobbesTheTiger

Please, find a good therapist with experience in abusive relationships and working on self-esteem and start INDIVIDUAL COUNSELLING.

Secondly, please, google "No more mr. nice guy pdf" and "Toxic parents pdf", two great books available online for free that might help you tremendously. Please give them a try and let us know what you think about them.

Best wishes


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## Orange375

This thing is hard to keep updated, I could write a novel daily. Will try to keep this short and to the point.
Ever since she was served the papers (end of October) she has been texting me daily, occasionally calling me, and even writing a few journals/letter begging for me back. Strangely, while most of the writings are sweet and begging for me back, some of them are still kinda mean and still say things like "I know we both made mistakes but we can get through them" - which seem odd to me because if you were truly desperate for someone, I wouldn't think you would even bring anything negative up, but idk.... So ever since she was served the papers, I have never replied to any of her communication at all. I feel that it is a lose lose situation for me. If I reply back and she is super sweet and apologetic, my heart melts and I want her back SO bad. If I talk to her and she is mean to me, it hurts SO bad. So I just don't know what talking to her is going to do for me. 
Having said that - our divorce was finalized first week of December and she finally moved out of the house the following week. 
My best friend has truly been an incredible gift to me throughout this nightmare as he has talked to me for hours and listened to me for hours trying to figure all of this out along the way. Well, he recently came to stay with me for support as I just got back into my house. He happens to be close friends with my ex wife best friend and they met up for dinner last night and of course the situation came up. 
It turns out that my ex wife swears to her best friend that quote "I never physically cheated" and I only asked for money in the divorce because my dad pressured me into it. (Which really hurts because he and I were very close and I can't believe he has turned on me somehow, especially considering that I had been calling him throughout this disaster asking for his advice) but nonetheless it sounds like he is pretty angry with me for I guess divorcing his daughter. 
My ex wife still texts me each day trying to convince me that we can work things out. I know it's sick but I fear the day those messages stop because then it's like I really lost her. 
I obviously have a million questions for her, but how will I know she is telling the truth? Should I talk to her? Is there any circumstance I could consider starting to date again? To actually hear that she supposedly never did anything physical - maybe I reacted to soon? i do regret that I didn't sit her down and tell her that I was going to file for divorce if she kept up her behavior and it is really eating at me. I don't even believe in divorce but her actions and words were SO bad. 
So - what do you all think I should do? Because right now, my mind is absolutely racing. Her best friend even said that her dad offered to pay for her to go travel anywhere she wanted for several months to help get her mind off of it but she refused because she wants to stay close to me in hopes I will talk to her. She also said that anytime something is said that has to do with me or reminds her of me, she instantly cries, like immediately. 
Ugh - please help, I'm SO torn and the stress and anxiety of all this is taking a real toll on me. I don't know what to do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GusPolinski

Orange375 said:


> This thing is hard to keep updated, I could write a novel daily. Will try to keep this short and to the point.
> Ever since she was served the papers (end of October) she has been texting me daily, occasionally calling me, and even writing a few journals/letter begging for me back. Strangely, while most of the writings are sweet and begging for me back, some of them are still kinda mean and still say things like "I know we both made mistakes but we can get through them" - which seem odd to me because if you were truly desperate for someone, I wouldn't think you would even bring anything negative up, but idk.... So ever since she was served the papers, I have never replied to any of her communication at all. I feel that it is a lose lose situation for me. If I reply back and she is super sweet and apologetic, my heart melts and I want her back SO bad. If I talk to her and she is mean to me, it hurts SO bad. So I just don't know what talking to her is going to do for me.
> Having said that - our divorce was finalized first week of December and she finally moved out of the house the following week.
> My best friend has truly been an incredible gift to me throughout this nightmare as he has talked to me for hours and listened to me for hours trying to figure all of this out along the way. Well, he recently came to stay with me for support as I just got back into my house. He happens to be close friends with my ex wife best friend and they met up for dinner last night and of course the situation came up.
> It turns out that my ex wife swears to her best friend that quote "I never physically cheated" and I only asked for money in the divorce because my dad pressured me into it. (Which really hurts because he and I were very close and I can't believe he has turned on me somehow, especially considering that I had been calling him throughout this disaster asking for his advice) but nonetheless it sounds like he is pretty angry with me for I guess divorcing his daughter.
> My ex wife still texts me each day trying to convince me that we can work things out. I know it's sick but I fear the day those messages stop because then it's like I really lost her.
> I obviously have a million questions for her, but how will I know she is telling the truth? Should I talk to her? Is there any circumstance I could consider starting to date again? To actually hear that she supposedly never did anything physical - maybe I reacted to soon? i do regret that I didn't sit her down and tell her that I was going to file for divorce if she kept up her behavior and it is really eating at me. I don't even believe in divorce but her actions and words were SO bad.
> So - what do you all think I should do? Because right now, my mind is absolutely racing. Her best friend even said that her dad offered to pay for her to go travel anywhere she wanted for several months to help get her mind off of it but she refused because she wants to stay close to me in hopes I will talk to her. She also said that anytime something is said that has to do with me or reminds her of me, she instantly cries, like immediately.
> Ugh - please help, I'm SO torn and the stress and anxiety of all this is taking a real toll on me. I don't know what to do.


JFC...

SHE. IS. LYING.

Learn to accept that.

And, on top of being a liar, this woman is CRAZY. You did the right thing in divorcing her. Now close the loop and cut her out of your life once and for all.

You should definitely change your cell phone number, and you should probably think about changing up your personal e-mail address(es), social media accounts, etc as well.


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## Evinrude58

Absolutely she is lying and is crazy.
You have got to move forward with your life. There is no fixing crazy. You'd have a helluva lot to fix, if it could be done. It can't. Move on.
In a couple of years, you'll be asking yourself why did you even consider this? You'll know then that you were a little craxy, too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

It's hard to accept but she is not right in her mind. BPD or something. She has major issues.

She needs a lot of therapy and even then she will always be at risk of melt down. Cheating is just part of what comes with a relationship with such a person.

Since you have already divorced best to see it through.

By the way, she did have sex with other men.

And clearly she feels conflicted over sex. She likes it a lot feels emotional and out of control. Cutting you off from sex was a control move. Not only did she want to torment you. She wanted to regain autonomy, a state in which she feels anxious. That is when she looked for other men. That created new anxieties, after which she wanted you back. This became a cycle. The speed of it is what leads followers of your thread to suspect BPD.

Whenever you feel longing for her remember the cum encrusted black towel that she left out on display to provoke your jealousy. Pretty crude message.


----------



## MachoMcCoy

Orange375 said:


> "I never physically cheated"


I don't even know what that means. 

In truly remarkable situations like yours, I like to go through all of the OP's posts, weed out the fluff and just make a nice clean list of bullet points listing all of the horrible things a spouse has said and done. It really hits home to someone who could, AMAZINGLY, still be thinking about going back to an abuser. But that list would be too long in this case. Wouldn't save much space.

You are 26.
You have no children together.
She is a horrible, horrible person.

How hot IS she? You have gone through the two hardest months of recovery. You are almost there. And you want to throw it all away?

TWENTY SIX!!!!! And you get a do-over. You are getting your LIFE BACK! But instead you are thinking of throwing it away.

I hate counseling. I CRINGE any time anyone recommends it. But you need to do SOMETHING about your self esteem problem before it kills you.


----------



## Orange375

Thank you for the replies, I know you all are right....I guess I just can't wrap my mind around the conflicting messages. For example, if she really is set on being with me, then why the towel? Or maybe that's not actually what's on the towel, idk. Or if she really is that upset that she cries at even the mention of my name, then why not an actual apology letter that explains what she was thinking for the past 6 months and explains what she actually did. Are you all saying that her friend is lying or you think she is lying to her friend? Why are you convinced she had sex with other men? I mean I believed she did also, but I never got total proof of that and her best friend swears she says it never turned physical. I'm not arguing that I should try and fix things, I just want to understand it the best I can from each angle so I can have peace with it. I keep asking myself if she didn't physically cheat, 1) is that possible to prove 2) does it make things less worse because if that's the case I feel a little guilty for divorcing her and 3) is it possible this experience has been life changing for her and she would be great person going forward?

Long Walk - what are you saying "created new anxieties" ? Her looking for other men? As in she doesn't like anxiety or does like that feeling?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

Your wife is unstable. Why wasn't she content in your relationship?

It has to do with the internal debate spinning round. That is why moves closer to you and then away.

Instead of searching for happiness within, she looks for affirmation from other men. Now that you have rejected her, your affirmation has skyrocketed in importance. But if you reunite, after hysterical bonding she will again feel self doubt. The cycle will repeat itself.

You have no children so moving on is a valid choice. If you want to explore reconciliation, you need MC and IC while you remain separated.

In IC she needs to figure out why she is unhappy in a stable relationship.

You need to figure out why you get hooked on a person who abuses you.

MC is the place to discuss your findings.

She should confess her adultery to establish a truthful basis for a relationship.

A question to ask in MC: why would she want to be with a man who "wrongly" suspects that she left evidence of her extramarital
sexual activity on display?


----------



## turnera

I would send her one message: "If I see you going to therapy consistently every week for at least two years, IF I'm still available after two years, I'll consider going out on a date with you to see if you have changed. Until then, leave me alone."

Odds are almost 100% that even if she tried that, she wouldn't stay stuck on you and she'll disappear. Not with her issues.

And on the offside chance she stays with therapy, she just might come out the other end a decent person.


----------



## Marduk

Orange375 said:


> Thank you for the replies, I know you all are right....I guess I just can't wrap my mind around the conflicting messages. For example, if she really is set on being with me, then why the towel? Or maybe that's not actually what's on the towel, idk. Or if she really is that upset that she cries at even the mention of my name, then why not an actual apology letter that explains what she was thinking for the past 6 months and explains what she actually did. Are you all saying that her friend is lying or you think she is lying to her friend? Why are you convinced she had sex with other men? I mean I believed she did also, but I never got total proof of that and her best friend swears she says it never turned physical. I'm not arguing that I should try and fix things, I just want to understand it the best I can from each angle so I can have peace with it. I keep asking myself if she didn't physically cheat, 1) is that possible to prove 2) does it make things less worse because if that's the case I feel a little guilty for divorcing her and 3) is it possible this experience has been life changing for her and she would be great person going forward?
> 
> Long Walk - what are you saying "created new anxieties" ? Her looking for other men? As in she doesn't like anxiety or does like that feeling?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You know what she did.

You know how she treated you.

You only existed to her to alleviate her own anxieties and to be a safety net while she got her fun with other men.

You pulled the net out, and she wants it back. And she will do anything -- even lie about her own family -- to get that safety net back.

Once you give it back to her, the push/pull game will start again. Because, for her, it must.

Keep walking forward. With your back turned to her.


----------



## MachoMcCoy

Orange375 said:


> Are you all saying that her friend is lying or you think she is lying to her friend?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Personally, I'm saying I don't care, since we have NO IDEA what she meant by it. If she did everything in the world with 20 different men 20 different times EXCEPT vaginal penetration, she COULD make that statement about that. 




Orange375 said:


> Why are you convinced she had sex with other men?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Again, personally, it's because I went back and skimmed your original post.

Dude. That is all of the stuff you KNOW about.

Let me introduce you to Delta88. Delta, meet Orange. You both have more in common than you think.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/considering-divorce-separation/254345-script-wife.html

Your assignment: Each of you do individual research on "Denial" then get together for a group discussion.


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## Marc878

Blood is always thicker than water. While you thought you and her father were on good terms. He would cut your throat for her no matter what she did. Go dark on the family. They are not and never were your friends.


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## tom67

marduk said:


> You know what she did.
> 
> You know how she treated you.
> 
> You only existed to her to alleviate her own anxieties and to be a safety net while she got her fun with other men.
> 
> You pulled the net out, and she wants it back. And she will do anything -- even lie about her own family -- to get that safety net back.
> 
> Once you give it back to her, the push/pull game will start again. Because, for her, it must.
> 
> Keep walking forward. With your back turned to her.


She is broken run away from her.


----------



## Marc878

Orange375 said:


> I went by my house today to grab a shirt, and I saw a black hand towel laying on the couch, with what appeared to be dried cum all over it - as if it was purposely left right in the open for me to find. I was shaking and even several hours later i am distraught. I have always feared her having sex with him in our house because I have no intention of selling the house or my furniture but now I don't know how I could possibly stay and not think about it every time I see it. I know she knows this and I'm sure that's why she did this. I want desperately to lie to myself and say it has to be something else on the towel, but I sadly know better. I'm starting to worry I'm not going to be okay after this. Just so painful.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How could you still be in denial????? C'mon man! You need to reread your thread from beginning to end. 

If that's not closure what would she have to do send you a video????

You divorced for a reason now get on with your life. You just wasting time on this you'll never get back. 

There are way better out there so use your time wisely.


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## delta88

Hi, Orange its Delta88. I've been following your thread. Our WWs would be best friends if they ever met im sure. Actually, I'm you in 14 years with two kids and a much bigger mess to clean up. Run for the hills and never look back. Especially with no kids in the picture.

Feel free to PM me in you need an ear to bend. We are all with you on this.



MachoMcCoy said:


> Orange375 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are you all saying that her friend is lying or you think she is lying to her friend?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Personally, I'm saying I don't care, since we have NO IDEA what she meant by it. If she did everything in the world with 20 different men 20 different times EXCEPT vaginal penetration, she COULD make that statement about that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Orange375 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why are you convinced she had sex with other men?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Again, personally, it's because I went back and skimmed your original post.
> 
> Dude. That is all of the stuff you KNOW about.
> 
> Let me introduce you to Delta88. Delta, meet Orange. You both have more in common than you think.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/considering-divorce-separation/254345-script-wife.html
> 
> Your assignment: Each of you do individual research on "Denial" then get together for a group discussion.
Click to expand...


----------



## knobcreek

Buddy400 said:


> OK, that's easy.
> 
> No kids. Get a divorce.


This X1000, this girl is a nightmare, sounds like a sociopath. No kids, no real money ties, easiest decision ever. Obviously looking back you never should've married her, but you can't change the past.



MachoMcCoy said:


> TWENTY SIX!!!!! And you get a do-over. You are getting your LIFE BACK! But instead you are thinking of throwing it away.
> 
> I hate counseling. I CRINGE any time anyone recommends it. But you need to do SOMETHING about your self esteem problem before it kills you.


The first part is something this guy should focus on, he is so lucky that he got out of this when he did, so lucky. With kids this woman would've ruined his life, he can literally pretend like it never happened, by 27 he'll be fine and a lot more wise than most 27 year olds.


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## ThreeStrikes

She sure sounds like a cluster B mindfvck.

You played a *role* in her life. The "daddy" role.

Now that you are gone, her codependent father has stepped in to temporarily act the part, until she can lure some other sap into the drama. 

Don't be that sap.

Completely go dark. You are still way too attached. It's the only way to detox from these cluster B crazies.

Have your IC delve into your FOO issues. Get to the root of why the "daddy", or "protector", role is so attractive to you.


----------



## tom67

ThreeStrikes said:


> She sure sounds like a cluster B mindfvck.
> 
> You played a *role* in her life. The "daddy" role.
> 
> Now that you are gone, her codependent father has stepped in to temporarily act the part, until she can lure some other sap into the drama.
> 
> Don't be that sap.
> 
> Completely go dark. You are still way too attached. It's the only way to detox from these cluster B crazies.
> 
> Have your IC delve into your FOO issues. Get to the root of why the "daddy", or "protector", role is so attractive to you.


White knight syndrome.
Totally agree.
Here https://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf


----------



## GusPolinski

Orange375 said:


> Thank you for the replies, I know you all are right....I guess I just can't wrap my mind around the conflicting messages. For example, if she really is set on being with me, then why the towel? Or maybe that's not actually what's on the towel, idk. Or if she really is that upset that she cries at even the mention of my name, then why not an actual apology letter that explains what she was thinking for the past 6 months and explains what she actually did. Are you all saying that her friend is lying or you think she is lying to her friend? Why are you convinced she had sex with other men? I mean I believed she did also, but I never got total proof of that and her best friend swears she says it never turned physical. I'm not arguing that I should try and fix things, I just want to understand it the best I can from each angle so I can have peace with it. I keep asking myself if she didn't physically cheat, 1) is that possible to prove 2) does it make things less worse because if that's the case I feel a little guilty for divorcing her and 3) is it possible this experience has been life changing for her and she would be great person going forward?
> 
> Long Walk - what are you saying "created new anxieties" ? Her looking for other men? As in she doesn't like anxiety or does like that feeling?


Seriously?!?

I know the answer to this but I'm feeling the need to ask regardless...

Dude... have you even READ your thread?


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## Orange375

Ugh - I went back and read my first post - I know you all are right....as far as the white knight / protector role, i really don't know why I go that route. I would guess it's because I am subconsciously so afraid of being left or betrayed that I end up with someone that "needs" me. --- and yet they still leave me, so what am I doing to these girls?! Something has got to be wrong with me. 
I am just SO SAD and I don't know what to do about it. I have been staying busy, spending time with family, took a trip with friends, but even when I'm doing those things I feel SO ALONE and just miss my life and having someone there for me SO MUCH. I know you're probably thinking that she wasn't there for me, but there were a lot of great times too, and times where she really was so good to me. 
As always - really appreciate all of your replies and advice. I really thought each day would get the slightest bit better, but they keep getting slightly more sad and depressing. I don't want to go on any meds - just putting that out there. I hear everyone's advice about staying busy but where do you draw the line and just call that running from your problem? I don't want to run but I don't want to be miserable either. Throughout this whole thing, I keep reminding myself how important it is that I don't lose faith in all women, and that I keep my mind open to trusting people - but honestly each day I question who I can trust more and more and losing faith quickly to trust anyone. Ok - I'm rambling, looking forward to all of your responses. Thank you in advance.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## the guy

I think you are looking for fulfillment from some women when you can only find fulfillment from with in your self. Once you can be happy with your self.... Then you can find a women that *adds* to your fulfillment....she doesn't bring you happiness, you have your own happiness.

I think you need to go out and get a plant,kept that plant a live and healthy for a year. Then go get a pet, keep that pet a live and healthy for a year.....Then go find a women.

I think you spend all your energy in keeping them happy and lose site that it's a two way street and your new partner has to meet your needs just as much as you meet hers.

So in short next time around don't be so blinded by meeting her needs.... when you lose focus on what makes you happy and what you need. So....spend some time a lone find what fulfills you as an *individual* and when you meet some one don't lose site of what you have found in your self that makes you happy as an individual. Then that new person *adds* to it.

Make sense?


----------



## the guy

You seem like a guy that would enjoy watching some plant grow and flourish and then getting a pet that grow to be a loyal pet that appreciates being feed and sit with you.

IDK maybe you are a farmer with all kinds of plants and pets...what the hell do I know...but maybe I'm on to some thing?

Hell all my house plants die. My dog runs a way and my old lady cheats. LOL

Seriously I read that house plant and pet thing some were and it might work for you......


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## delta88

This sounds like the making of a great western song. You know the difference between country and western music? Country you can date your relatives where western music you sing about losing your dog or truck.


the guy said:


> You seem like a guy that would enjoy watching some plant grow and flourish and then getting a pet that grow to be a loyal pet that appreciates being feed and sit with you.
> 
> IDK maybe you are a farmer with all kinds of plants and pets...what the hell do I know...but maybe I'm on to some thing?
> 
> Hell all my house plants die. My dog runs a way and my old lady cheats. LOL
> 
> Seriously I read that house plant and pet thing some were and it might work for you......


----------



## Orange375

I'm really starting to feel a lot of guilt for the person I became during our relationship. I don't know when or how it happened, but at the time and even now I link the cause back to me not being able to trust her and therefore giving me a lot of anxiety. However, I guess what I didn't realize was happening was that we were losing intimacy - and I don't mean just sex, but we lost a closeness, a trust, a bond, that we never got back and as I examine how I am right now - I don't even recognize myself. It's like I'm a shell of myself. A person just going through the motions, always fearing that I'm going to set her off or I guess the honest truth would be the fear of her leaving me. 
Looking back, I think it's no wonder that she looked elsewhere, I wouldn't want to be with me either. The hard part, was I felt that I was being that way due to her reactions. I'm sure as this cycle progressed she eventually lost so much respect for me that, I'm sure that's what she meant when I said I wasn't fun anymore and that i changed. At the time I took that to mean I wasn't as wild or partied like we did in college - but she probably didn't know how to verbalized that I had changed even in my personality or the lack there of. I rationalized her having a great life because of everything I provided for her, and places I took her - but we lost our connection and never actually said it out loud. 
She would accuse me of not liking her which I always thought was insane because there was no one else I rather be with, but I'm sure she did feel like I didn't like her because I was being so careful to tip toe around, it's like I tried to blend into the wall to avoid a fight between us. 
I tried countless times to talk to her but she hated talking because she said I didn't understand what she did say and I made her repeat what she said too many times. It was always difficult for her to verbalize her thoughts and feelings and i felt like I tried SO hard to figure them out but it's like I just never could so when she finally would actually open up about something to me and I wouldn't "get it" or whatever, she would get so angry at me. 
I wanted our life to work out so bad, I am trying to stay busy today but I'm having the toughest time holding in the tears. It's just too painful. Idk how all you guys do it. The guilt, the pain, the what ifs, the heartbreak, the betrayal, the vision you had for your life together, all the small things you knew about each other and favorites things shared - brutal. 
It doesn't help that my self esteem is all time low because of all this, and I just want such a great woman, and i wish it was her so bad. I know there are a million more out there and I know my attitude is not helping me get someone else, but the doubt that I'm able to get and keep the quality of woman I want is consuming. What if I'm a lot more average than I thought and im not going to get the woman I want. I guess now it seems that maybe I accepted getting walked on because I don't think I can actually do better. Wow that sounds pathetic, but I've got to write my thoughts down.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## delta88

Orange, my wife was always sending signals to other men showing her sexual interest. What did that do to me? Well it made me jelious and rendered me powerless at I watched countless nightmares unfold before my eyes. And I can say now that I look back is that it sucked the life energy from me and turned me into a shell of the man I used to be.

For what, being married to the ideal of my wife being the perfect wife who would never hurt me? Well, she did and still is. You are seeing crocodile tears pal. Once you let her get close your done for. You just have to ask yourself if and why you want to be with a woman who doesn't love you back. A woman that will put the hurt on you until there's nothing left.

So you and I need to stop blaming ourselves for everything and look as to why we choose broken woman and why we think we can't do better. 

Hang in there and merry Christmas to you all.


----------



## Orange375

I think I have always had concerns and suspicions of her cheating to various degrees but in some sick way I didn't want to actually know the truth. I guess I didn't want to experience that pain and hoped it would eventually go away. 

I know that everyone is saying to just continue to ignore her and stay no contact for the rest of my life - but something is making me want to ask her to write down a timeline of our entire relationship just like I started this thread with and send it to me, and don't leave a single detail out. 

As much as I crave this information - I am honestly scared to read it. What is she is truly honest in it and tells everything and it turns out that she even did more horrific things than I already know about. What if she tells me that the real reason we stopped having sex was because she was sleeping with another guy for months. I mean who knows at this point. 

I am also scared that any contact with her will somehow give her closure and meanwhile I still feel awful. I feel like I have zero closure and as much as I try and convince myself that she is bad news and I need to stay away - it is literally like I have lost a huge piece of my life. And I know that sounds cliche but we were together for almost 5 years and my life was definitely our life. I always felt my life centered around her even though she often told me that she felt that she lost her identity because "we only lived my life" I can't imagine being with anyone else and I don't even want to. 

She has been sending me songs asking me to please listen to them. Pretty much loving songs that ask for second chance and explains that I am everything to her. 
And texted me today and said that even if I don't ever want to give her a second chance, she still wants to tell me things if I would ever please talk to her. 

What does she want to tell me? Can it really get worse for me if I go talk to her? 

It's strange - I have really only read the threads in the cheating section and the divorce section since they seem to best apply to my situation. And while many of the responses to people's situations is to get a divorce, many of them at least start out with advice for how to save the marriage.....but today I went to the reconciliation section and wow is that a depressing place to be. I don't know if I read a single thread in there that sounded like a success story. It seems like cheating haunts their marriage forever and even after many years of counseling they still have struggles. Brutal! The more I read the more I begin to wonder if anybody out there is truly happy and never worries about their spouse or "that one weekend" or whatever. The statistics are awful as well, being that 50% of marriages fail and I think it's like 40% admit to some kind of cheating. I wonder how many have cheated but didn't admit to it. Just super depressing statistics. Are all people that terrible and weak willed?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lilac23

Orange375 said:


> Do you think with a different person she will be the great and faithful wife that I once thought she could be? Or is it actually something wrong with her?
> 
> Reason I ask is because I keep thinking about my role in this. I keep reading that while it isn't my fault she cheated, it could have been my fault that got her to the point that she considered cheating.
> 
> I see a lot of responses that say things to all the people that got cheated on like now is the time to improve yourself, go to the gym, read some self help books, etc. is that just a nice way of saying "had you done these things all along, you wouldn't be in this spot" ?
> 
> I guess my question is - is there a guy out there that is going to act a particular way, say / do things at the right time that will cause her to be faithful and awesome wife? Or is it her that had to change? Because if it's only the guy, then that's definitely harder to accept, because then it makes me feel like I should have done things differently and then we wouldn't be in this position.
> 
> Not sure I articulated that well, but hopefully somebody understands what I'm getting at.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


People are basically the same in relationships, the same problems she has with you, she will have with the next guy.


----------



## Lilac23

Orange375 said:


> I'm really starting to feel a lot of guilt for the person I became during our relationship. I don't know when or how it happened, but at the time and even now I link the cause back to me not being able to trust her and therefore giving me a lot of anxiety. However, I guess what I didn't realize was happening was that we were losing intimacy - and I don't mean just sex, but we lost a closeness, a trust, a bond, that we never got back and as I examine how I am right now - I don't even recognize myself. It's like I'm a shell of myself. A person just going through the motions, always fearing that I'm going to set her off or I guess the honest truth would be the fear of her leaving me.
> Looking back, I think it's no wonder that she looked elsewhere, I wouldn't want to be with me either. The hard part, was I felt that I was being that way due to her reactions. I'm sure as this cycle progressed she eventually lost so much respect for me that, I'm sure that's what she meant when I said I wasn't fun anymore and that i changed. At the time I took that to mean I wasn't as wild or partied like we did in college - but she probably didn't know how to verbalized that I had changed even in my personality or the lack there of. I rationalized her having a great life because of everything I provided for her, and places I took her - but we lost our connection and never actually said it out loud.
> She would accuse me of not liking her which I always thought was insane because there was no one else I rather be with, but I'm sure she did feel like I didn't like her because I was being so careful to tip toe around, it's like I tried to blend into the wall to avoid a fight between us.
> I tried countless times to talk to her but she hated talking because she said I didn't understand what she did say and I made her repeat what she said too many times. It was always difficult for her to verbalize her thoughts and feelings and i felt like I tried SO hard to figure them out but it's like I just never could so when she finally would actually open up about something to me and I wouldn't "get it" or whatever, she would get so angry at me.
> I wanted our life to work out so bad, I am trying to stay busy today but I'm having the toughest time holding in the tears. It's just too painful. Idk how all you guys do it. The guilt, the pain, the what ifs, the heartbreak, the betrayal, the vision you had for your life together, all the small things you knew about each other and favorites things shared - brutal.
> It doesn't help that my self esteem is all time low because of all this, and I just want such a great woman, and i wish it was her so bad. I know there are a million more out there and I know my attitude is not helping me get someone else, but the doubt that I'm able to get and keep the quality of woman I want is consuming. What if I'm a lot more average than I thought and im not going to get the woman I want. I guess now it seems that maybe I accepted getting walked on because I don't think I can actually do better. Wow that sounds pathetic, but I've got to write my thoughts down.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I feel bad for what you are going through, it's tough to go through a breakup but a lot of times it is worse to stay together. It's natural to feel guilty, learn from it and use it to better your next relationship. Don't let it drive you into the mistake of getting back to her. 

It's only been a few months, you were with her for years, it takes time to get over these things. Are you getting out the house with your friends much? It's good to be around people who will distract you from the drama of her.

One of your earlier threads said something about her having another guy as Plan B, I think you were Plan B to her. She can't stand that you are no longer under her control because she was sure she could talk you into anything or do anything to you and you'd take it. 

She said horrible things to you! The thing about anger is sometimes it brings out what people really think, kind of like alcohol. I think it would actually be cruel of you to respond at this point because it would give her hope that you are slipping back under her control. Can you imagine having kids with her? A woman this selfish would be a terrible mother. You don't owe her your future because you were mad she kissed or "banned" another guy.

You do seem a bit superficial on what you are looking for in a woman "beautiful crazy and fun" seems like a poor list, IMO. Why don't you make a list of qualities you want? Like faithful, trustworthy and able to positively communicate? You need to learn from this experience or else you will be deemed to repeat it with another sl*tty party girl in the future.


----------



## Orange375

I do have a million questions for her. The least of my worries is hurting her feelings right now - she has crushed me in ways words can't describe. I guess I am worried that talking to her could somehow end up hurting me even more. Is it possible that she has changed / that this was a traumatic enough experience for her to reassess herself? One of the million questions I obviously have though is - what happened to all your feeling for the other guy? They just disappeared? I find that hard to wrap my mind around - especially considering that she has kept in contact with him throughout our entire 4.5 year relationship and that's only from times I actually know about.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Accept that you're not going to get closure. Most of us haven't.

Google "hoovering". Sound familiar?


----------



## Orange375

Ok - I went and talked with my psychologist yesterday and had what I think is a pretty good meeting. Definitely confirmed my findings that I have not been living a full life and definitely have things to improve on so that I find value and joy out of more aspects of life than only her - which is exactly what I was doing and I felt content doing that. 

On the other hand - I think I want to take her up on her offer to meet with the psychologist together so that we can both say whatever it is we need to say. She swears that I made a mistake and if she could only explain it to me that we could work it out. I have lots of doubts and I don't trust her at all - but I want to know if she can even sit there and not get defensive, not get upset, not blame me, and truly be remorseful. 

What's the worst that could happen? I wind up getting more hurt? Because I think at this point that is in fact my concern. I have always been afraid of her telling me the truth because I think it's that bad but maybe I need to get a grip and listen to it if she will in fact explain her side of this. Remember - she keeps texting me and saying she would do absolutely anything in order to be with me - so maybe I should hear her out and see what she has to say. If I even think for a moment that she isn't telling the whole truth, then I walk away. Then I know for a fact that if she can't even be truly remorseful now - then I can actually focus on moving on 100% with no concerns about this.

Thoughts?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Evinrude58

The worst that could happen is what WILL happen. You will hear all kinds of bs lies from her in order to put her back into her original position in life, where she will soon resume her cheating.

You need to continue to heal by continuing NO contact. 

This is one of those things where I'd I were your brother, I'd physically try to beat you before letting you give in to your fear and loneliness, just to win back a cheater who cares nothing for you.

Don't try to figure stuff out. Acceptance bro. You need to accept what she is and move on.

As suggested, reread your thread. Never a more clear case for divorce.
Don't do this counselor thing. It won't help except give her the opportunity to hurt you again.
Retain your dignity! You will find a better woman than this with little effort.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Divinely Favored

I would not even meet her to talk about anything unless she passed a polygraph.


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## Openminded

The worst that can happen? You get pulled back in as so many others have and then you're back here in a year or two when you realize you got played. It happens over and over. Liars are good at what they do. They feel, with good reason, they can manipulate anyone. 

She wants her life back and she'll say and do anything to make that happen. For awhile anyway. Sure, she could possibly change -- some do -- but most don't. They just get better at it. And the situation repeats. Do you want to take the chance? That's what it comes down to.


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## Openminded

PS

Read your first page again. I'm just did. Shaking my head. She's been playing you for years and you kept taking it. Now you're out but about to get caught up again in her ability to spin. Why?


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## Openminded

I just re-read it again. You're her security blanket. Plan B. She thinks you can provide a life filled with the material things she wants which she doesn't feel that J can provide for her. But J keeps popping up. However, she wants money more than she wants to marry him so he'll stay on the side. 

You got the truth when she said she wasn't attracted to you. Believe her. And stay away before you're back once again in the spider's web. You're got your entire life ahead of you. Take it.


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## ThreeStrikes

Some guys need to touch the hot stove multiple times before they realize they're getting burned.

It's your path, Orange. You'll get it, eventually.


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## helolover

You are the beta bucks. 
J is the alpha ***s.

Step out of her victim/drama triangle. Move along, Orange.


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## turnera

Openminded said:


> I just re-read it again. You're her security blanket. Plan B. She thinks you can provide a life filled with the material things she wants which she doesn't feel that J can provide for her. But J keeps popping up. However, she wants money more than she wants to marry him so he'll stay on the side.
> 
> You got the truth when she said she wasn't attracted to you. Believe her. And stay away before you're back once again in the spider's web. You're got your entire life ahead of you. Take it.


Maybe it's time to insist that she pay her way 100%? Separate accounts, she buys her own groceries, she pays 1/2 of utilities and mortgage, or she leaves?


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## MerlinsBritain

what Buddy said second post in, no kids...mag to grid, get rid.


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## Orange375

helolover said:


> You are the beta bucks.
> J is the alpha ***s.
> 
> Step out of her victim/drama triangle. Move along, Orange.


I have been doing a ton of reading on this alpha male / beta male stuff. Pretty eye opening to say the least. I think I start off relationships as alpha (****y, confident, if you don't like it leave attitude) and of course it works. But then as the relationship progresses and I really start to develop feelings for her, I become very beta I guess in an effort to make sure I don't lose her and do everything she wants. Sadly for the both of us, she loses respect for me and loses attraction so what do I do? Become even more beta to try and convince her to stay with me - SICK! 

So, I have been doing a ton of reading on "the red pill" which has been a tremendous amount of information regarding this topic. I just can't forget out where I fit into all this.

I don't really believe I am truly alpha, I just put that show on when single but once I get serious the wall comes down. But it comes down because I feel like I am just being myself. Am I not allowed to do that? Do I have to live in fear that my girlfriend or wife will always leave me if she finds a man with stronger sexual market value? Where does religion and morals fit into this? 

I found a letter I had written her after she cheated the first time and said she was thinking about J. It is insane how much it could easily be the identical letter I would write today if asked to. I feel the exact same way now as I did back then. 

Obviously not very alpha of me - but I really am leaning towards talking to her in front of a counselor, just to see if she can even be truly remorseful and tell me everything. I have a feeling she won't and if she doesn't then at least I will know reconciliation is not even possible. I know I'm sick in the head, but that's my thought right now. 

Really appreciate all of your replies. Thanks in advance.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TheTruthHurts

Orange375 said:


> ... I really am leaning towards talking to her in front of a counselor, just to see if she can even be truly remorseful and tell me everything. I have a feeling she won't and if she doesn't then at least I will know reconciliation is not even possible. I know I'm sick in the head, but that's my thought right now.
> 
> Really appreciate all of your replies. Thanks in advance.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Orange - I'll just respond to this portion of your post. In almost every thread involving a WS, the BS is left with the empty need to have the WS come to their senses and realize the hurt they've caused... to finally feel remorse and show it.

In almost every case, the WS actually did what they did because they wanted to and probably do not regret it. In some cases they feel some type of regret though - regret at the loss of protection, money, housing, prestige, esteem THEY feel. Also sometimes shame and humiliation - if others know what is in THEIR hearts.

Like the original betrayal these are all selfish reactions - it's about ME ME ME for the WS.

To do what they do, the WS blame the BS or rewrite history and lose respect for the BS.

This basic selfishness and lack of respect PREVENT them from feeling for the BS. Feeling for others - empathy - is required for remorse.

So in the end, this desperate need to see remorse is not destined to be filled.

One question - if she can't feel remorse and respect for you alone, why would she feel it in front of a councilor? I think you know what you are really asking - can I at least shame her enough in front of someone else to get her to ACT remorseful. Not a very satisfying and valuable result, right? Sorry...


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## Orange375

She texts me several times every day begging for me to talk to her and saying that she is sorry and telling me how much she loves and misses me. She says she will do anything to have one more chance with me. I haven't replied in 10 weeks and she still writes me. Don't know if she is truly remorseful and I really want to know. 

I know talk is cheap but I want to know so bad if she will truly do anything to get me back. 

I went to two counsellors and they both said she definitely has issues she must work out on her own and then if we both still wanted - then we could sit down and talk. 

As much as I want us to work - I'm very much aware at the life long doubt I will be choosing to live with. Needless to say, the reconciliation forum is pretty depressing on here.


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## turnera

My secret ingredient? Time.

Tell her that, for you to consider taking her back, she must (1) be in therapy at least every other week and (2) continue that therapy for at least six months. At the end of that, she must also give her therapist permission to talk to you about what's happened. If the therapist feels you should give her another chance, you will then - six months from now - at least talk to her about it. But if she can't do those three things, then you have no desire to ever see her again. 

What this does is separate the wheat from the chaff. It's easy for her to say NOW that she wants another chance. But if she does the work described, sticks with it, and THEN is still interested, she just may really want to be with you. 

Either way, you're protecting yourself from her.


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## Plan 9 from OS

Sigh...

You're divorced, right? IT'S FINISHED. That means she is not your problem. What do you really expect to get from her if you engage her in conversation again? You'll get nothing from her.

Your dumbass wife clearly couldn't get out of college mode. She never wanted to grow up, and she still had some oats to sow. She sowed them after dating you, after being engaged to you and after marrying you. Don't you get it? Even if you don't have the video of her fakking some dude, you surely must know that all of the all night partying plus keeping her phone glued to her hand and never letting you see it is all indicative of cheating. 

You need to do the following (IMHO):


Send 1 text that says: "We're divorced now. It's time for you to move on".
Change you number so that she does not have a means to contact you.
If she shows up at your house unannounced, call the police to have her taken away.

You know what you need to do. You simply choose to not do them.


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## TheTruthHurts

Go to the gym HARD! Really set some physical or strength goals that will take a while to achieve, meet some guys at the gym, join bodybuilder.com, and work to meet them.

Could be ripped abs, a certain shape, a certain strength, endurance level - whatever you think will be the BEST and most masculine you. Some guys just want to be trim and others want bulk. Just set an ideal and achieve it!

Why? Well I am about 80-100 lbs overweight so in not some gym rat saying this. But I am a guy who had decided to undo what I have allowed work, work, domestic life, bad eating habits and complacency (and femininity) do to me. I was happy with who I was BTW and successful and confident - but guys lose their guy-ness in these circumstances. I have a personal trainer twice a week and have been doing other stuff for about 8 months now. Feel great, feel strong, and I will lose the weight.

You have allowed a series of painful and humiliating events in your relationship erode your sense of self. Anyone would. Reclaim it. In doing so you will realize what others are telling you, and you won't feel so drawn to her because your self esteem will tell you that you are worth more than that.

I get that you loved her and want her to be the girl you saw when you looked at her. But she's broken and you're not supposed to be her white knight. Think Lindsay Logan at the height of her hot mess days. Would you want to have been her guy at that point? You think he was #1 in her world? No it would have been hurt city. That was you, brother. Let it become the past.


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## Lilac23

Orange375 said:


> She texts me several times every day begging for me to talk to her and saying that she is sorry and telling me how much she loves and misses me. She says she will do anything to have one more chance with me. I haven't replied in 10 weeks and she still writes me. Don't know if she is truly remorseful and I really want to know.
> 
> I know talk is cheap but I want to know so bad if she will truly do anything to get me back.
> 
> I went to two counsellors and they both said she definitely has issues she must work out on her own and then if we both still wanted - then we could sit down and talk.
> 
> As much as I want us to work - I'm very much aware at the life long doubt I will be choosing to live with. Needless to say, the reconciliation forum is pretty depressing on here.


You want to go to therapy so that she can talk to you into getting back together. You two are young, have no kids and seem to be fine financially, life is about as good as it's going to get with her at this point. Do you really think she will change in the future and be everything you hoped for? Do you have any idea what kind of stress kids, aging parents, health problems add to a marriage? If she could not remain faithful in this easy time of life, she will not be faithful in the future. She also didn't just kiss a guy in a bar once, time and again she has betrayed you with multiple people! Do you want to put your future kids through a divorce and a parade of mommy's sleazy boyfriends? Count yourself lucky you can walk away with relatively unscathed and not be scarring your children for the rest of their lives or having to be sending her 25% of your income for the next 18 years, while she has a guy living with her and your kids in your house.


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## In The Dark

So how is it going Orange? Are you doing better now?


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## ABHale

Orange375 said:


> I think I have always had concerns and suspicions of her cheating to various degrees but in some sick way I didn't want to actually know the truth. I guess I didn't want to experience that pain and hoped it would eventually go away.
> 
> I know that everyone is saying to just continue to ignore her and stay no contact for the rest of my life - but something is making me want to ask her to write down a timeline of our entire relationship just like I started this thread with and send it to me, and don't leave a single detail out.
> 
> As much as I crave this information - I am honestly scared to read it. What is she is truly honest in it and tells everything and it turns out that she even did more horrific things than I already know about. What if she tells me that the real reason we stopped having sex was because she was sleeping with another guy for months. I mean who knows at this point.
> 
> I am also scared that any contact with her will somehow give her closure and meanwhile I still feel awful. I feel like I have zero closure and as much as I try and convince myself that she is bad news and I need to stay away - it is literally like I have lost a huge piece of my life. And I know that sounds cliche but we were together for almost 5 years and my life was definitely our life. I always felt my life centered around her even though she often told me that she felt that she lost her identity because "we only lived my life" I can't imagine being with anyone else and I don't even want to.
> 
> She has been sending me songs asking me to please listen to them. Pretty much loving songs that ask for second chance and explains that I am everything to her.
> And texted me today and said that even if I don't ever want to give her a second chance, she still wants to tell me things if I would ever please talk to her.
> 
> What does she want to tell me? Can it really get worse for me if I go talk to her?
> 
> It's strange - I have really only read the threads in the cheating section and the divorce section since they seem to best apply to my situation. And while many of the responses to people's situations is to get a divorce, many of them at least start out with advice for how to save the marriage.....but today I went to the reconciliation section and wow is that a depressing place to be. I don't know if I read a single thread in there that sounded like a success story. It seems like cheating haunts their marriage forever and even after many years of counseling they still have struggles. Brutal! The more I read the more I begin to wonder if anybody out there is truly happy and never worries about their spouse or "that one weekend" or whatever. The statistics are awful as well, being that 50% of marriages fail and I think it's like 40% admit to some kind of cheating. I wonder how many have cheated but didn't admit to it. Just super depressing statistics. Are all people that terrible and weak willed?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Then WHY ARE YOU BEATING YOURSELF UP FOR NOT TRUSTING HER! Stop, this is all on her not you.


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