# Advice Please - Trying to Break the "Nice Guy Habit"



## pegger1975 (Jun 30, 2016)

I have always been the "Nice Guy" and just recently figured out that this is probably my biggest problem. Like many I have been frustrated with my wife's lack of interest in sex. Last December I made a commitment to be extremely nice and try to anticipate what she would want me to do prior to having to be asked. For example I touched up the paint in the bedrooms...or vacuumed the entire house before she asked "when was the last time the house was vacuumed". I have heard time and time again that women need you to do the little things without being asked...blah blah blah.

Well i have noticed she is much nicer to me, but still not all that interested in sex. I will admit it has gone from once every 4 - 6 weeks to twice every 4- 6 weeks on average. 

In the last two months I have found this site and been reading a lot about how what a woman really wants is not a nice guy at all. Ah Crap! I now get it I am my own worst enemy. This is starting to make sense now. 

My question is, how does a typical "manly" male respond to the following scenario...

My wife has been battling a cold for the last two days, but I thought i'd try anyway.
I thought I'd just go for it. Leaned over and kissed my wife's shoulder, and the reaction I got was. "I cannot believe how selfish you are. You know I am sick. It's moments like this that I feel like I am just a whole for you to stick it in."

In the past, I would have sulked and just profusely apologized. Last night I just looked at her and said. "Yes I want to have sex with you. Even though you are not feeling well, I still find you extremely sexy." 

It pretty much ended at that. Which is better than I would have expected. 

So, again, how would a manly man handle this?


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

pegger1975 said:


> Well i have noticed she is much nicer to me, but still not all that interested in sex. I will admit it has gone from once every 4 - 6 weeks to twice every 4- 6 weeks on average.
> 
> I thought I'd just go for it. Leaned over and kissed my wife's shoulder, and the reaction I got was.* "I cannot believe how selfish you are. You know I am sick. It's moments like this that I feel like I am just a whole for you to stick it in."*


Curious per the bolded, if you are only having sex 1-2x every 4-6 weeks, what moments is she alluding to 

So when you leaned in for the kiss, was your intention to have sex? I can understand why if she was sick she wouldn't want to have sex, but focus more on her response. She could have simply said "I just don't feel good, let's try again when I feel better." Instead, she went right at you which would indicate there is a larger underlying issue.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Be more aware... your pendulum swings at extremes.

Learn from it... don't lose the lesson.

Did you really hit on her while she was sick?


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

EllisRedding said:


> Instead, she went right at you which would indicate there is a larger underlying issue.


Being ill or in pain does lead to directness with short responses and low tolerances for current and ongoing issues.... it's hard to not be snappy under such conditions.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Emerging Buddhist said:


> Being ill or in pain does lead to directness with short responses and low tolerances for current and ongoing issues.... it's hard to not be snappy under such conditions.


Just b/c she is snappy doesn't mean there isn't truth to what she is saying. Maybe with lower tolerance she didn't sugar coat her response like she might have otherwise. They have sex maybe 1-2 times every 4-6 weeks, so that could easily tie in with her feelings that she is just a hole in the wall. Not saying she is right or wrong, but the response does say a lot IMO.


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## Unicus (Jun 2, 2016)

What on earth is a "Manly man"? There's way too much philosophizing here to begin with, please don't add to it :wink2:

Listen, if you don't think your sexual needs are being adequately addressed, just come out with it already, you need to have a frank, non accusatory conversation with her about it. Your sexual deprivation isn't the result of your being a "Nice guy" or an "Unmanly man" or anything else. As you see, when you make the extra effort, you still get rebuffed, and she misinterprets your kind gestures for sexual advances. Don't speak in forked tongue or code, and open a window to let out all the frankincense, it's getting in the way.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

you gotta pick your moments better.

the not sulking and being more direct is a good start. 

start approaching her (at the right moments) romantically without the expectations of sex.
in fact act like you don't even care about sex, but instead romance her whenever you get the chance.

try to put sex out of your mind, at least as it pertains to her.


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

*Last December I made a commitment to be extremely nice and try to anticipate what she would want me to do prior to having to be asked. For example I touched up the paint in the bedrooms...or vacuumed the entire house before she asked "when was the last time the house was vacuumed". I have heard time and time again that women need you to do the little things without being asked...blah blah blah.*


Doing more chores or being extremely nice will not get your wife to have sex with you. Actually its doing the opposite effect. 


Many, many guys don't know how a woman's mind works. 

Your in need of "No more mr. nice guy" book. Google it and read. 


Questions: 
How long have you been married 
How many kids
Both of you work
Are you in shape, out of shape

Stop talking about lack of sex with her. 
And STOP being a doormat.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acoa (Sep 21, 2012)

pegger1975 said:


> So, again, how would a manly man handle this?


Asking her if she needs anything. Provide for any reasonable request. Then let her sleep. 

On a side note, to her 'I feel like I'm just a hole for you to stick it in' comment. I would have responded, "yes, but a very sexy hole, and I happen to like the person it's attached to". But, I wouldn't have put the moves on her when she was sick. 

If your kiss was more a peck and not a come on for sex, it makes me wonder. Does she have any history of being sexually abused?


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

Unicus said:


> *What on earth is a "Manly man"?* There's way too much philosophizing here to begin with, please don't add to it :wink2:
> 
> Listen, if you don't think your sexual needs are being adequately addressed, just come out with it already, you need to have a frank, non accusatory conversation with her about it. Your sexual deprivation isn't the result of your being a "Nice guy" or an "Unmanly man" or anything else. As you see, when you make the extra effort, you still get rebuffed, and she misinterprets your kind gestures for sexual advances. Don't speak in forked tongue or code, and open a window to let out all the frankincense, it's getting in the way.


a 'manly man' is the exalted 'ALPHA MAN' which is often beloved and touted on this site.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

jorgegene said:


> a 'manly man' is the exalted 'ALPHA MAN' which is often beloved and touted on this site.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

I think that's a pretty drastic response to a kiss on the shoulder. That's hardly a come on for sex. If I were fighting off a cold I'd like a kiss on the shoulder. In fact, I kiss my teen children on the top of the head when they aren't feeling well.


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## Unicus (Jun 2, 2016)

jorgegene said:


> a 'manly man' is the exalted 'ALPHA MAN' which is often beloved and touted on this site.


Oh, Alpha Male..they say you don't smell yourself, so maybe that's why I didn't get that...:wink2:

An "Alpha male" would have had the frank conversation I spoke of as soon as he saw things deteriorating.

Being told that you feel like a sexual hole in the wall fairly shouts for that kind of process.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Do more chores. Do less chores. Be caring, be aloof. Buy a truck with big knobbly tires. If you partner doesn't want sex none of these will change that. 

In some case a partner won't want sex because of something you are or are not doing, but usually those things are pretty obvious. If you are a selfish lover, or an unemployed lazy bum, or dirty, or demanding - changing those things will help. 

If you are a generally decent, helpful, respect worthy person, and your partner still doesn't want sex, there is nothing you can do about it - that is just what they are. Leave, or live with it - terrible choices, but your only choices.

Don't run yourself ragged trying to figure out what YOU are doing wrong. It isn't you.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

read MMSLP


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## GuyInColorado (Dec 26, 2015)

You need to start working on yourself. Get in the best shape of your life. Go to the gym 5x a week. Buy new clothes/shoes. Get a new haircut. Stop worrying about her, you are #1 and are the only one who will make yourself happy. Go out with your friends a couple times a week, don't invite her.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

EllisRedding said:


> Just b/c she is snappy doesn't mean there isn't truth to what she is saying. Maybe with lower tolerance she didn't sugar coat her response like she might have otherwise. They have sex maybe 1-2 times every 4-6 weeks, so that could easily tie in with her feelings that she is just a hole in the wall. Not saying she is right or wrong, but the response does say a lot IMO.


I fully agree with you, I was just referencing the tone really, sorry for not being more clear.


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## foolscotton3 (Nov 13, 2014)

*Re: Advice Please - Trying to Break the &quot;Nice Guy Habit&quot;*



pegger1975 said:


> I have always been the "Nice Guy" and just recently figured out that this is probably my biggest problem. Like many I have been frustrated with my wife's lack of interest in sex. Last December I made a commitment to be extremely nice and try to anticipate what she would want me to do prior to having to be asked. For example I touched up the paint in the bedrooms...or vacuumed the entire house before she asked "when was the last time the house was vacuumed". I have heard time and time again that women need you to do the little things without being asked...blah blah blah.
> 
> Well i have noticed she is much nicer to me, but still not all that interested in sex. I will admit it has gone from once every 4 - 6 weeks to twice every 4- 6 weeks on average.
> 
> ...


The not so nice guy would have educated her on the health benefits of intercourse, then followed with "I want to fvck the snot out of you!"

Laugh at her b¡tchyness, eventually she will just think your purposely trying to ruse her for your own entertainment, then she feels like putty in your hands and that kinda turns her on a little bit.

Dry humping her after she shames you for initiating sex works way better than sulking.

Edit: it won't get you sex, but it might get you off, lol.


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

pegger1975 said:


> I have always been the "Nice Guy" and just recently figured out that this is probably my biggest problem. Like many I have been frustrated with my wife's lack of interest in sex. Last December I made a commitment to be extremely nice and try to anticipate what she would want me to do prior to having to be asked. For example I touched up the paint in the bedrooms...or vacuumed the entire house before she asked "when was the last time the house was vacuumed". I have heard time and time again that women need you to do the little things without being asked...blah blah blah.
> 
> Well i have noticed she is much nicer to me, but still not all that interested in sex. I will admit it has gone from once every 4 - 6 weeks to twice every 4- 6 weeks on average.
> 
> ...


Well...i would have left her alone if she was sick...cause...damn..

But the first response that popped in my head was "its awesome how well you know me baby"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

pegger1975 said:


> In the past, I would have sulked and just profusely apologized. Last night I just looked at her and said. "Yes I want to have sex with you. Even though you are not feeling well, I still find you extremely sexy."
> 
> It pretty much ended at that. Which is better than I would have expected.


That response was a big improvement over sulking and apologizing.

Keep it up. Small steps. 

Nothing changes overnight.


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## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

Part of her being put off may be to you hitting on her when she's sick. I would have asked her if she needed anything, made her comfortable in bed & gone out for a run.

I did the whole housework thing as well. For a year in fact, made sure everything was done, even had meals in crockpot on nights I wasn't gonna make it home. Then tried for sex on a Saturday morning, got rejected, didn't say anything, but ALL housework stopped on my account. My wife had other issues she needed to deal with, but I was doing this experiment to take away her "You don't do anything around the house".

The following weekend, she asked "Why no house work?" I asked "Why no sex?" This lead to quite a few discussions. 

Here is a link you may use to explain why sex is so important. A Husband?s Emotional Need - The Forgiven Wife

Marriage is a compromise, she isn't going to want it all the time, and you have to be more aware of how she is feeling. If she's sick, forget about it. On the other hand, if she tries putting you off with "I have a upset stomach", and later downs half a pizza & a quart of ice cream, she's just avoiding intimacy, and more discussion may be needed.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

When you kissed her on the shoulder, were you trying to get her to have sex with you? Was that your intent?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

*Re: Advice Please - Trying to Break the &quot;Nice Guy Habit&quot;*



foolscotton3 said:


> The not so nice guy would have educated her on the health benefits of intercourse, then followed with "I want to fvck the snot out of you!"
> 
> Laugh at her b¡tchyness, eventually she will just think your purposely trying to ruse her for your own entertainment, then she feels like putty in your hands and that kinda turns her on a little bit.
> 
> ...


Have you been drinking tonight? 0


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

pegger1975 said:


> My wife has been battling a cold for the last two days, but I thought i'd try anyway.
> I thought I'd just go for it. Leaned over and kissed my wife's shoulder, and the reaction I got was.


Well that was not the best time don't you think? Especially when she is not the most into it right now anyway. See you are so desperate right now that you are not thinking right. If you had had sex more frequently you wouldn't be bothering her. 

Couple things, you have got to get her to stop thinking that sex is about you getting off. But here is a question to you, is sex about getting you off? Are you making sure she is getting off? It should be fun, communicative and exciting, like a project that just the two of you can do. 

Another thing be romantic with her, leave her notes, about why you lover her, what she does that makes you happy, why you think she is hot. If she looks good in a dress tell her, if she looks sexy, write her a note when she goes to bed about how horny she made you. But it can't all be about sex because then it just seems disingenuous. WHATEVER YOU DO DON'T BEG! Woman don't find begging sexy, unless you are a superstar, and then it is because they know a superstar could have anyone and they are begging for them (not really just in the song).

You need to be confident. I said this on another thread (and people will laugh but) Barry White, that guy knew how to talk to women. There is a reason why a sweaty fat man had all the women throwing panties. His lyrics are just awesome, romantic, kind, loving and sexy. You got to get that across to her in your own way.

Bottom line, communicate from a point of strength, not desperation. But not being a Nice Guy is more then just getting sex, it means stop being passive. Passive in your relationship, passive in your dress, passive in your job. It means not waiting for your wife to tell you to fix the toilet handle. It's being active. It is being a leader in your own home. That is how you get to communicate from a position of strength. She will be much more receptive if you lead.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

This is very confusing - I felt for you until you said she had a cold but you figured you'd try anyway.

I don't understand why you're hitting on someone who only puts out about once a month when you know they're not feeling well. 

Question: How often do you hit your wife up for sex? If it's all the time, and she's rejecting you so much you only get it once or twice a month, I'd stop hitting on her so often for awhile, she probably feels hounded. If it's only once in awhile, then pick your times better, for crying out loud! If she hardly wants sex as it is, why set yourself up for failure by trying when she's sick?

I'm not a shrink, but I'm think there's something psychological about turning a guy down - like a negative feedback loop of some sort, turning him down may reinforce the idea that he wants sex and you don't in your mind, which makes the woman wary and her reflex response may become NO!. So pick your moment's strategically.

With that said I really liked your response to her. You are a man. You want sex. She's a hot sexy woman. She's your woman. She turns you on. You have nothing to apologize for. (Except not giving a damn that she had a cold, but next time you'll time things better.) I would never apologize for wanting sex, that is not manly. Never beg, wheedle or whine. But also, don't treat her like a hole by hitting on her when you know she feels miserable.

As far as meeting her needs - housework schmousework. Sure, women want help with it. So would any janitor. But if you helped out some janitor, it wouldn't make him hot for you. (I don't think...) Women's top emotional needs that make them feel CONNECTED to you where they WANT sex are more are usually 1) Intimate Conversation, 2) Affection (that is NOT sexual), 3) Giving them your undivided attention so they know you care about them as a human, not just a hole. And 4 - when you DO have sex, make it good for HER too. 

Here is a really good article on getting the sex you want: The question of the ages: How can a husband receive the sex he needs in marriage? by Dr. Willard F. Harley, Jr.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

*Re: Advice Please - Trying to Break the &quot;Nice Guy Habit&quot;*



foolscotton3 said:


> The not so nice guy would have educated her on the health benefits of intercourse, then followed with "I want to fvck the snot out of you!"
> 
> Laugh at her b¡tchyness, eventually she will just think your purposely trying to ruse her for your own entertainment, then she feels like putty in your hands and that kinda turns her on a little bit.
> 
> ...


Ha ha - Horrible post. HORRIBLE! But it totally cracked me up.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

jerry123 said:


> *Last December I made a commitment to be extremely nice and try to anticipate what she would want me to do prior to having to be asked. For example I touched up the paint in the bedrooms...or vacuumed the entire house before she asked "when was the last time the house was vacuumed". I have heard time and time again that women need you to do the little things without being asked...blah blah blah.*
> 
> 
> Doing more chores or being extremely nice will not get your wife to have sex with you. Actually its doing the opposite effect.
> ...


^^^^ what they said AND


And, as a manly man, he needs to stop think about the world revolving around "his needs".

"Manly Men" deal with their s..ff.
"unmanly men" create problems for others with their wants.

You're doing housework _why_? Because you want something, you looked it up, but never thought about how/why it works (it doesn't).
Women want someone to share the chores for the same reasons many men ignore them - simply because there are more interesting things to do that they'd rather be doing.

OP did the chores to create a good impression. To achieve what he wanted. (better marriage, thus HN/HN she is supposed to magically reciprocate.)
(1st mistake) you are not 9 years old. You no longer get praise for cleaning your own room.
(2nd mistake) you're doing stuff you should have already been doing. (in your customers eyes).
(3rd mistake) you're taking on a lower role in the operation in hopes for recognitions and rewards due the higher leaders in the operation.
(4th mistake) The things that you spend your time achieving have no promotional value within the social order. (no bragging rights)
(5th and biggest mistake) you did these things with hope of payoff without a contract but with the intention to creating an obligation - aimed at someone more capable in the negotiation than yourself and who held "power cards". Your attempt to move things to their (social) ground gave them _more_ power, while made your standing/ability _less_ tenable. Your female partner has to play this kind of game, for real, every time she interacts with another (non-BFF) female - so when you played amateur hour, guess where that put you.

Now tell me, why did you think you plan would work?
(perhaps, 'cause *****es like housework done, I knows, cause I reads it on the the interweb.)

Rule 1: You have to be worth having.
Rule 2: She has to be enjoying the idea of having you.
Rule 3: It has to be on her mind -before- you start making any kind of action together.

As you can imagine now, that co-habitating with a daily grind a kids, is going to make that task really difficult, for her as well as you.

And also hopefully now, you'll understand that your carrying you weight *is* good, because it "opens territory/time" but you've really got a long way to go before you make it to "sexy fun guy" material.
And is your partner going to settle for less than "sexy fun guy"? well she might out of obligation, or duty, or pity, or for hope of keeping marriage together - but how long do you think she is going to be able to emotionally keep carrying that dutifully forwards.

Yes, modern world tends to crush that out of us. Tends to create false goals (some with truly tangible benefits).


and, just so you realise, asking the customer (or your wife) what you have to do, is IRL admitting you're clueless.... so unless you want to be considered a nerdy teen age virgin fumbling their first bra strap, you're going to have to do way more effort than asking that.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

Unicus said:


> What on earth is a "Manly man"? There's way too much philosophizing here to begin with, please don't add to it :wink2:
> 
> Listen, if you don't think your sexual needs are being adequately addressed, just come out with it already, you need to have a frank, non accusatory conversation with her about it. Your sexual deprivation isn't the result of your being a "Nice guy" or an "Unmanly man" or anything else. As you see, when you make the extra effort, you still get rebuffed, and she misinterprets your kind gestures for sexual advances. Don't speak in forked tongue or code, and open a window to let out all the frankincense, it's getting in the way.


Do NOT do this.
You will come over like a whiny needy *****.
It will 200% put her on the spot (as "services provider") and deliver totally the message that _you_ consider _she_ has *failed* in her obligation to you as you aren't getting what you want and now you're holding her hostage and forcing her with a confrontation on it.
From that point on every action will be considered purely for sexual brownie points for some prostitution level for which she is _expected_ to provide.

If you're totally incredibly lucky, your wife will feel sorry for you and might make an attempt to cross the gap for her own reasons....which would then result in you not understanding the greater problem (that your current behaviour doesn't excite her)


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## Unicus (Jun 2, 2016)

spotthedeaddog said:


> Do NOT do this.
> You will come over like a whiny needy *****.
> It will 200% put her on the spot (as "services provider") and deliver totally the message that _you_ consider _she_ has *failed* in her obligation to you as you aren't getting what you want and now you're holding her hostage and forcing her with a confrontation on it.
> From that point on every action will be considered purely for sexual brownie points for some prostitution level for which she is _expected_ to provide.
> ...


So, you're adamantly telling him NOT to be direct with his needs? Really? Is that what you're saying? How on earth is that beneficial?

It's funny in a sad way how little some really understand their partners needs and substitute this self righteousness for actual dialogue. In a healthy relationship, people talk (and listen) to each other, they don't leave it up to the Fates (like "Luck") to hope their SO meets their needs. And because it's about need gratification and care taking in general (not a specific thing like sex), the other person doesn't feel "Put on the spot". They actually appreciate the information so they can work together to improve the relationship. 

Folks often wonder why their marriage isn't what it should be or what they'd like it to be, some wonder why they're headed towards (or have been thru) divorce, or why their spouse cheats....and the answers are often found in the lack of awareness and inability to actually listen.

The best way of addressing this is directly, with words. If she experiences that as "Whining" he has a far larger problem than not getting laid enough.


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## Middle of Everything (Feb 19, 2012)

Its the God damn common COLD. Some here are acting like OP was trying to get it on with her while she was in a hospital bed battling Ebola.

She dont like sex with you. She gives it a couples times every month and a half to shut you up. 

I realize some colds can be worse than others but give the guy a break. Nothing short of a major sit down with the wife laying all of their cards on the table is going to help OP.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

OP,
I must agree that it is just a cold. Did she remain in bed the last two days or did she go to work, go shopping, do any of her normal chores? If so I seriously doubt having sex would be hazardous to her health.

In any event, perhaps when she expressed her feeling as if she were just a hole for you to stick it into you should have responded with you're not just any hole, you are a very special hole that I have dedicated myself to and vowed to cherish. You took the same vow but I do not feel as though you feel that way about me. So if you are just a hole to me then what am I to you that you can allow my needs to go mostly unmet?

I would find that statement to be very troubling in that it it implies a serious lack of connection. If she truly feels that way then your marriage is seriously lacking depth and substance.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Middle of Everything said:


> Its the God damn common COLD. Some here are acting like OP was trying to get it on with her while she was in a hospital bed battling Ebola.
> 
> She dont like sex with you. She gives it a couples times every month and a half to shut you up.
> 
> I realize some colds can be worse than others but give the guy a break. Nothing short of a major sit down with the wife laying all of their cards on the table is going to help OP.



Personally I don't think one thing has to do with the other. She was sick and didn't feel like having sex at the moment. That is entirely reasonable. This wouldn't be a problem if he was have sex more frequently. They are already having problems it makes no tactical sense to press for sex when she is sick. 

I do agree he should sit down and talk, but he needs to step up too. He sounds like he is passive in his life. Besides no man wants obligation sex, they want to be desired. He can make that happen with a little work.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

How to be a manly man:

Don't do housework because you expect sex in return (covert contract). Do it because you are a full partner in the relationship. If you see something that needs doing, then do it. Pay attention to pick up on things that your spouse thinks need doing, even if you don't see it. Carry your weight in the household. If your spouse is unable to, due to illness, overtime at work, death in the family, whatever, then carry your weight and then some.

Give your wife affection that isn't intended to lead to sex. If a peck on the shoulder instantly makes her think you want sex, then you must have a history of only touching her when you want sex. Touch her all the time, in non sexual ways. If you touch her in sexual ways and she doesn't respond, shrug in understanding and return to non-sexual touch. Create a new mindset in her that you care about her in ways that don't involve you getting off.

Be responsible:
- Take care of yourself physically. Be healthy. Be attractive. Smell good. Eat sensibly.
- Take care of yourself financially. Work full time. Pay debts promptly. Create savings. Live within your means.
- Take care of yourself emotionally/mentally. Let go of grudges. Exert creativity. Pursue dreams. Analyze criticism for accuracy and change accordingly.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

All very good advice, but don't do it in the hopes of getting sex. If she has no innate desire for sex, nothing will help.




Hopeful Cynic said:


> How to be a manly man:
> 
> Don't do housework because you expect sex in return (covert contract). Do it because you are a full partner in the relationship. If you see something that needs doing, then do it. Pay attention to pick up on things that your spouse thinks need doing, even if you don't see it. Carry your weight in the household. If your spouse is unable to, due to illness, overtime at work, death in the family, whatever, then carry your weight and then some.
> 
> ...


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## Camper292000 (Nov 7, 2015)

Read MARRIED MAN SEX LIFE book. Immediately. Your marriage is in major crisis. You gotta step up and figure out how to be a good wise leader.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Did you READ the book - No More Mr Nice Guy?

A "Nice Guy" is someone who's insecure and tries to get what he wants by using covert contracts to get it because he's afraid if he just says what he wants, she'll leave him.

Not being a Nice Guy doesn't mean being a jerk or ignoring your wife or not doing things for her. It means being loving and dedicated, but also keeping yourself EQUAL to her and being willing to leave the relationship if you're being treated badly.

FORMER Nice Guys don't do things just to get sex. IF she is telling you she feels like a hole you can stick it in, BELIEVE HER. That is what she feels. Because you ARE doing things just to get sex.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

The alpha male doesn't apologize for his sexuality or wanting to be intimate with his wife, instead he embraces that as part of his character. He also doesn't let her outbursts phase him. Work on that. 

Example: 
Step 1 is answer directly with confidence about your sexuality - Of course I want to stick it in you. You're so beautiful to me that even when you're sick you turn me on. 
Step 2 is finish with humor that ignores her rejection - What...you don't really think I married you because I like cleaning your hair out of the bathroom drain or because I want to always put the toilet seat down after I pee, do you? [then walk away and find something to do on your own so you leave on your terms and not because of her prior rejection]


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

take her off the pedestal.

it is counterintuitive, but the biggest step you can take is lessening the importance of getting what you want

ask yourself:

is having sex with her really that great?

Does achieving this hold an outsized importance to you compared to what it actually is?

Consider:

when it actually happens, is it even good? or is it really kind of boring? are you the one doing all of the work there too?

is she really hot, or just OK? when you are out in public, what percentage of women are more attractive than her? is sex with her really that special?

You probably don't want to ask yourself these questions, but if that is the case, it just reveals what a monopoly she has over you.


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## cknpro (Aug 6, 2016)

The above is pretty good advice. I would agree with some of the earlier replies in that your timing to judge her response might have been better, but her terse response reflects her selfish attitude. She slammed the gate shut. Your response was fine IMO. 

Now what to do? Do whatever you want to do to serve her, but not in expectation of reciprocation. If you don't WANT to do something, then don't. For instance, don't go out of your way to do more than your fair share of the housework expecting her to want to screw you. She won't. But then when you want some, be assertive. When she refuses, move on, but go back again soon. Stop being her house boy, start being her man. Start expecting her to be the wife. 

Turning a gatekeeper wife is not easy. Be strong.


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## Begin again (Jul 4, 2016)

uhtred said:


> If you are a generally decent, helpful, respect worthy person, and your partner still doesn't want sex, there is nothing you can do about it - that is just what they are. Leave, or live with it - terrible choices, but your only choices.


Uh, no. Some women don't want sex, but most women who are LD are really that way because of their current relationship. That was true for me. Had more sex in my first relationship after separating than I did in my 10 year marriage, and that relationship was only a few months. Why? Because my sexuality shut down with all the stressors in the marriage. And the total stalemate we were in when it came to fixing our marriage. 

Sometimes you do have to let the marriage go, but lack of sex in a marriage is a symptom, not the problem.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I think that sometimes you are right, but not always. There are naturally LD people out there who just don't want sex - with anyone. 



Begin again said:


> Uh, no. Some women don't want sex, but most women who are LD are really that way because of their current relationship. That was true for me. Had more sex in my first relationship after separating than I did in my 10 year marriage, and that relationship was only a few months. Why? Because my sexuality shut down with all the stressors in the marriage. And the total stalemate we were in when it came to fixing our marriage.
> 
> Sometimes you do have to let the marriage go, but lack of sex in a marriage is a symptom, not the problem.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

For Christ's sake people, all he did was kiss her on the shoulder. I don't see where he said he was doing it to get laid. 



OP, I have an idea. 

Next time she is under the weather, instead of kissing her on the shoulder, go make a big steaming, yummy hot bowl of Campbell's chicken soup. 

Then eat it in front of her. 

When she b!tches at you, remind her she told you she doesn't want you showing her affection while she is sick...


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

pegger1975 said:


> So, again, how would a manly man handle this?


I would reply truthfully, "Darling, that was not an expression of sexual intent, but an expression that I love you and hope that you feel better soon."

OTOH, my wife thinks sex is a bad thing, so I know way better than to imply at all that she's physically appealing...and I'm not a manly man anyway.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

Here's a story that's repeated itself in my life. Dated a girl who was a freakmonster in the sack. Sex all the time, really kinky stuff. Sex in the office, blowjobs in the bathroom of restaurants, etc. We'd rendezvous for lunch sex or after work sex multiple times a week. Most of the time it was her idea and her initiation

Fast forward 3 years later, she's just not that interested anymore. Said she's just not that into sex, doesn't enjoy blowjobs, and very blah about it. I mentioned the beginning of the relationship and she said, "you used to show you care more." That's interesting because when she was doing all that stuff I actually was getting with other girls and didn't really care about her at all other than thinking she was a lot of fun.

So what changed?

ME! I started getting comfortable. Started putting her on a pedestal. I gave up big portions of my life to be around her and make her happy. I stopped having prospects because I wasn't going out, and when she would disrespect me I would take it because I didn't want to break up. Women sense all this, and nothing is more unattractive to a woman than a man with no prospects.

You can listen to what they say, or pay attention to their actions. Women tell you they want a nice guy who really cares about them, then they go on a show called the bachelor and sleep with a guy who's actively hooking up with 2 dozen other women. Go on the CWI forum, you'll see women who don't have sex at all and talk about being low drive, and then 24 hours later they fly to Vegas to give blowjobs to a busload of strangers.

Your wife likes sex. The thought of having it with you is repulsive to her. You don't have any respect for yourself. You don't have any prospects for leaving. You don't have the gumption to set personal boundaries nor stick to them. You aren't decisive. You've let her define who you are and you've been apologetic about it (at least in the past). None of these things are attractive to a female.

It's very difficult to regain that frame, but I think MMSP has a good take on it. Start gaining confidence and figuring out who you are. Don't let your wife define you. Work on being decisive. Work on being attractive to other women. Try to get to a frame of mind where your wife leaving is not the most detrimental thing that could happen to you. Have the confidence to know your value and that if your wife doesn't see it, someone else will.

The best way to keep your wife, is being willing to lose her.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

pegger1975 said:


> ....In the last two months I have found this site and been reading a lot about how what a woman really wants is not a nice guy at all. Ah Crap! I now get it I am my own worst enemy. This is starting to make sense now.
> 
> My question is, how does a typical "manly" male respond to the following scenario...
> 
> ...


First of all congratulations on knowing that you are part of the problem. A couple of hallmarks of Glover's recovery program for "nice guys" are no covert contracts, and getting a life.

As a recovering (recoverd) Nice Guy, let me help you understand what some of those words mean.

No covert contracts means you don't do things to get sex. You are a man, men need sex. But more importantly you are in a relationship and you need to feel emotionally connected to your wife. It isn't about you getting sex, it is about the two of you feeling emotionally and physically connected. 

When you kissed her on the shoulder, I will wager you thinking I am going to do A, then B, then C and that will lead me to getting sex. She spotted that right off the bat. As others have said, you picked a bad time, you were predictable in what you were trying to get from her. As others have said you should have gotten her something because it was something she needed like tissues or sleep. Instead you were focused on you.

Next lesson is on Getting a Life. That means you do things to make you happy. You take responsibility for your life (as opposed to being co-dependent and needing her validation of you). You become the most fascinating person you can be for you. That will make you happy and confident and they are both sexy to most women.

Let's focus on these now to answer your question 


> how does a typical "manly" male respond to the following scenario...


First he would not have been in that situation, because he wouldn't have put himself there.

He wouldn't have had his feelings hurt or confidence shaken, by her response.

Had he wanted to have sex with her, he would have probably chosen another time.

Assuming for some scheduling or business trip reason he couldn't choose another time, he would have told her loved her and that he wanted to have sex with her to feel emotional closeness before he left on his trip.

If she had said no, he would have probably taken charge of his own happiness and asked her to hold him while he masturbated. If she would have said no, he would have told her that he isn't ashamed of his sexuality and sexual needs and wants her to be part of his sex life, but he isn't going to force himself on her if she doesn't want to be part of his sex life.

Good luck to you.

It takes a long time to get over being a Nice Guy. You need to forgive her, drop any anger, learn to love her and respect her for who she is. Learn to love yourself. Work on improving yourself and doing things that make you happy. You don't need her permission to be happy and you can be happy without her doing anything. If things work out well, you and your wife will share special moments, regular moments and dull moments with respect for each other.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

bandit.45 said:


> For Christ's sake people, all he did was kiss her on the shoulder. I don't see where he said he was doing it to get laid.


HE said he was trying for it. If he was trying for it, she felt it.


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## no name (Aug 4, 2016)

Hi! I'm finding it interesting that I have just kept reading here about hubbies helping out with house work and being extra nice to your wife will equal having more sx. It's my opinion that a woman wouldn't want her man doing housework just to get sx but b/c you contribute both to the household chores regardless with out an expectation of a reward. No wonder , if the woman knows this she will with hold it because it's the only way to get the man to contribute. A woman doesn't want to do it , knowing it's a reward for you doing chores, it's really not a turn on ! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

pegger1975 said:


> I will admit it has gone from once every 4 - 6 weeks to twice every 4- 6 weeks on average.


Less than once a month is a sexless relationship....



pegger1975 said:


> "I cannot believe how selfish you are. You know I am sick. It's moments like this that I feel like I am just a whole for you to stick it in."


Once a month (if you're lucky) and she feels like she's being used?!?

LMAO, time to cut bait and run dude. She's completely ridiculous.

Are you meeting whatever her needs are? Cause she sure as hell ain't meeting yours.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

bandit.45 said:


> For Christ's sake people, all he did was kiss her on the shoulder. I don't see where he said he was doing it to get laid.


And so what if he did want to get laid? It's getting really old reading about HD spouses (men and women) having to apologize to their LD spouse for wanting to have sex with them.

Here's a thought. Why the hell are you still married to this person? Find someone who WANTS you.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

COguy said:


> Fast forward 3 years later, she's just not that interested anymore. Said she's just not that into sex, doesn't enjoy blowjobs, and very blah about it. I mentioned the beginning of the relationship and she said, "you used to show you care more."


it's so automatic it's pretty funny when you take a step back

it's like, "I ate chocolate ice cream every day for 3 yrs. Ugh, chocolate ice cream is so gross! Chocolate ice cream, why did you make yourself be gross?!"


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## no name (Aug 4, 2016)

I must be the minority here. Why don't you just appreciate what ever amount of sx one is getting? I really don't see why there is so much hype that in order for your marriage to be healthy you must be doing it a certain amount. What about emphasis on the quality instead ? There is just way too much importance and emphasis on it. I think if you just appreciate what you have and stop obsessing over it, you would all be happier . Regardless of doing it 10x/year or 300x/year , it doesn't equate to how healthy your marriage is and thus you won't have that pressure any more. Anyways that's just my opinion . I know it's the minority , but there r just way too many threads about this very same topic and I'd just though I'd finally say my piece. Not looking for a debate here, I know there are many that will disagree with me , but it's a different perspective. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

no name said:


> I must be the minority here. Why don't you just appreciate what ever amount of sx one is getting? I really don't see why there is so much hype that in order for your marriage to be healthy you must be doing it a certain amount. What about emphasis on the quality instead ? There is just way too much importance and emphasis on it. I think if you just appreciate what you have and stop obsessing over it, you would all be happier . Regardless of doing it 10x/year or 300x/year , it doesn't equate to how healthy your marriage is and thus you won't have that pressure any more. Anyways that's just my opinion . I know it's the minority , but there r just way too many threads about this very same topic and I'd just though I'd finally say my piece. Not looking for a debate here, I know there are many that will disagree with me , but it's a different perspective.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Both the assumption that others _do_ feel that way, as well as the expectation that others _should_ feel that way, is the problem on _both_ sides.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

no name said:


> I must be the minority here. Why don't you just appreciate what ever amount of sx one is getting? I really don't see why there is so much hype that in order for your marriage to be healthy you must be doing it a certain amount. What about emphasis on the quality instead ? There is just way too much importance and emphasis on it. I think if you just appreciate what you have and stop obsessing over it, you would all be happier . Regardless of doing it 10x/year or 300x/year , it doesn't equate to how healthy your marriage is and thus you won't have that pressure any more. Anyways that's just my opinion . I know it's the minority , but there r just way too many threads about this very same topic and I'd just though I'd finally say my piece. Not looking for a debate here, I know there are many that will disagree with me , but it's a different perspective.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Wow.

A) That's not how men work

B) Rephrase your response in the opposite direction: "Why don't you just appreciate however much your husband wants to communicate with you or help you around the house. I don't see why there's so much hype that in order to have a happy marriage your husband has to talk to you a certain amount, or help you a certain amount. There is just way too much emphasis on communicating, doing dishes, picking up around the house, etc. If you just appreciated the times he talked to you you would be happier instead of wanting him to do it more often. Just my opinion."

If this is your opinion, you appear to be lacking any attempt to understand how your SO feels about THE most important thing in his life. Sex is how men feel loved and connected. It literally drives almost everything we do in some form.


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## no name (Aug 4, 2016)

As I mentioned, I know many would disagree with me. It's just my perspective I mean no offence. I also don't feel that or act that way towards my hubby, so it doesn't apply to me, I already appreciate Him, but I can understand if there are other woman that may feel that way , but iam not one of them . Hence mine and my hubby's view , is that the QUANTITY of sx is not the most important thing , it's the QUALITY which is more important instead , you may have misunderstood what I meant. If you feel that sx is the most important thing in your marriage , then so be it for you . Please dont assume its my husbands point of view too. Thanks for your opinion. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

no name said:


> As I mentioned, I know many would disagree with me. It's just my perspective I mean no offence. I also don't feel that or act that way towards my hubby, so it doesn't apply to me, I already appreciate Him, but I can understand if there are other woman that may feel that way , but iam not one of them . Hence mine and my hubby's view , is that the QUANTITY of sx is not the most important thing , it's the QUALITY which is more important instead , you may have misunderstood what I meant. If you feel that sx is the most important thing in your marriage , then so be it for you . Please dont assume its my husbands point of view too. Thanks for your opinion.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Ok but you're posting on a thread in the MEN'S clubhouse on a guy who is upset about his lack of sex. Posting how it's not important to you, as a woman.

Akin to me going onto a woman's thread about her husband coming home from work and going straight upstairs to his computer and never helping around the house or communicating with her, and I'd chime in with "well communication isn't that important to me so you shouldn't make a big deal about it."

It's not that your opinion is wrong, it just shows a complete lack of empathy and awareness for the feelings of others.


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## no name (Aug 4, 2016)

I disagree with you but I understand where you r coming from. Lack of empathy?! Focusing on appreciating the great quality of the sx instead of the quantity may actually help the op. I think it's good advice. As for the ladies lounge , of course that happens, I don't c it as lack of empathy when I read that. The value of my input is of the same importance and empathy as any one here. Also , it's not b/c I am a woman that i said that. If it came off as being ' un-empathetic ' to you or anyone else, it wasn't the intention. I do appreciate your advice and realise you feel
this way. I already mentioned that this may be the minority view but it may actually help the op to get a different perspective . It is a after all a forum. Please let's just leave as a different view . I tolerate others views and I'd appreciate having the same. Thank you . 


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

Almost by fact, the "quality" increases as the quantity decreases. Assuming you aren't rubbing it out every other day, having sex after a layoff is pretty damn good. When my life with my wife was healthier, I actually liked when we had a week delay. The next time was amazing, and then it would be like 4 of the next 5 days. But, the "quality" is skewed by the fact that it feels better after longer waits. Also, it's not just about the quality, it's about the intimacy. If you ignore the intimacy factor and just look at good sex, then you are missing out on a huge part of marriage.


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## no name (Aug 4, 2016)

Yes intimacy too, good point. 


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Herschel said:


> Almost by fact, the "quality" increases as the quantity decreases. Assuming you aren't rubbing it out every other day, having sex after a layoff is pretty damn good. ....
> 
> .....Also, it's not just about the quality, it's about the intimacy. If you ignore the intimacy factor and just look at good sex, then you are missing out on a huge part of marriage.


I was in a sex starved marriage and let me tell you the quality did not increase as the frequency decreased. Just the opposite, until we went through sex therapy and both changed.

Sex can lead to intimacy, but it is not absolute. Sex and bonding hormone released after sex can help emotionally bond two people together and create intimacy. But, sex also causes one to be emotionally vulnerable and depending on the partner intimacy can be replaced with humiliation and emotional abuse.

Nice Guys are typically being used and abused. Partly at their own doing. I was a nice guy in a sex starved marriage. I was co-dependent, needed my wife's emotional validation and she would emotionally rip my heart out after occasional sex to create the emotional distance she wanted between us in our relationship.

Nature created the whole sex, bonding hormone, intimacy feedback loop to bring two people together and make them one couple. It doesn't take much to derail things, but there is a deep biological connection.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Unicus said:


> So, you're adamantly telling him NOT to be direct with his needs? Really? Is that what you're saying? How on earth is that beneficial?
> 
> It's funny in a sad way how little some really understand their partners needs and substitute this self righteousness for actual dialogue. In a healthy relationship, people talk (and listen) to each other, they don't leave it up to the Fates (like "Luck") to hope their SO meets their needs. And because it's about need gratification and care taking in general (not a specific thing like sex), the other person doesn't feel "Put on the spot". They actually appreciate the information so they can work together to improve the relationship.
> 
> ...


The chances of a direct approach working are very close to zero. Yes, it can work in rare cases, so long as the man is mostly doing the right things already (being confident, etc.) and has just fallen down a bit in a few things, but otherwise it is guaranteed to fail.

Why? Because it is *weak*, and women are *disgusted *by weakness.

This isn't very nice, but it is reality.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Lots of good advice here. I am all for the NMMNG makeover. 

But at some point a man just has to take a long look at the marriage, himself and his wife. If the changes he is making are not bearing fruit, and if the wife continues to be rigid and unyielding then the guy.must make some hard choices. 

He either chooses to accept that she is either an unfeeling shrew, has lost all respect and desire for him that will never come back, or maybe she is a self centered b!tch who needs to be fired from her job. 

No one, man or woman, should subject themselves to a future with a spouse who has no respect for them. 

Walk away with your head held high knowing you did all you could to be the best man and husband you could be. Take those skills you learned to the next relationship and be happy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

bandit.45 said:


> ...But at some point a man just has to take a long look at the marriage, himself and his wife. If the changes he is making are not bearing fruit, and if the wife continues to be rigid and unyielding then the guy.must make some hard choices.
> 
> ...Take those skills you learned to the next relationship and be happy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


May I suggest MW Davis book the sex starved Marriage, if you haven't read it. It offers suggestions quite similar to NMMNG but some others as well. The 180 is a powerful way of changing yourself to try to save a marriage, but as MWD points out, you can only change yourself. As you point out (sort of) only your spouse can change themself (you can support their change, but can't force it).

If they choose not to change, then yes you will be a better person for your next partner.


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## EunuchMonk (Jan 3, 2016)

Nice Guy = A man who tries to manipulate people into doing what he wants or into liking him by pretending to be nicer than he really is.

Alpha Male = A guy who has the confidence to be himself, not being unduly nice (because he's not going to fake), in other words his guard is not up because of insecurities. "This is who I am, good and bad."

Personally I think the whole Alpha/Beta distinction is a bit juvenile but I understand the premise. Super nice people are usually super fearful. I've found most nice guys aren't nice at all. A lot get resentful and even start to hate women when these women don't respond to their pretend niceness the way they want. That doesn't sound like a nice guy. It sounds like a manipulator. I've met nice guys who have no problem - NO PROBLEM - getting women because it's not an act with them, it's who they are. If they get rejected by those women they are not bothered. They were not being nice to get something, they were just being themselves.

Consider that maybe the jerks/"A-holes" that get a lot of women it is because those women like that they have the gonads to be themselves, uncut and uncensored. Are there women that go for the bad? Yes, but that's their problem. As I've said, trash attracts trash. The scandalous are attracted to the scandalous. Birds of a feather....you understand. That's why I laugh when I hear some say men are dogs. If he is a dog and you were attracted to him what does that make you? Only dogs are attracted to dogs.

OP, I think you should do fulfilling things with your life. Things that make _you_ feel manly. I'm not even going to focus on your wife. This is more about you than her, agree with me or not. I don't know your timetable but find time to do things that give you a sense of purpose etc etc.


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