# Husband won't forgive me



## camerashy

Hi, 

I am new to TAM. I am 29 and my H is 34. My H and I have been married for 2 years in July (first, and hopefully only, marriage for both of us). We have what I would describe as a typical marriage – we have our ups and downs (a few arguments, nothing serious). That is until recently.

A few months ago, my H was experiencing some conflict at work. Someone at his job had started a rumor about him (that I knew was untrue) and although it resolved itself fairly quickly, his pride was hurt. During this time, I had been commissioned for a job that took me away from home for a week. This is normal for me. The job had been prearranged a few months prior, and in my line of work, opportunities can sometimes be few and far between. 

My H and I talked every day that I was away (even if just to say goodnight) and I tried to be as supportive as I could be. I assured him that things would blow over and that nobody would believe the rumors because he is a valued member of the firm he works at (this all was true and did happen). 

But when I got home, my H and I started arguing a lot more than usual and it felt like he was deliberately picking at pointless things in order to start a fight. He also said some pretty hurtful comments (I am too insensitive, I run away from our problems, I’m not affectionate enough, I don’t communicate etc). I will admit that I kind of lost a little bit of respect for him at that time (I thought how he was handling the whole situation was very childish). Sure, I am not as emotional as he is, and I don’t like emotional outbursts…but it doesn’t mean I don’t have feelings. And I think I communicate them well enough. As for not being affectionate… that is not exactly true…I just don’t like him squeezing my a** in public or kissing me in front of other people etc (which he tries to do a lot).

Anyway, it all came to a head about a month ago, when my H said he needed a break from our marriage to sort his head out. I was pretty shocked by this…I mean we were arguing a lot, but a break? It seemed a bit extreme. But when I questioned him on it, he said that we needed time apart in order to figure out if we were compatible enough/want the same things. I went to stay with a friend for 2 weeks.

What was meant to be 2 weeks turned into 3 and last weekend I went to a club with a friend and ended up kissing another man. It was nothing but kissing and maybe a little touching above the waist, and I hated it. It was terrible and it felt wrong and I put an end to it straight away. There was never any intent to take it any further than that. I love my H very much and despite what we are going through, I want us to stay together.

I told him what happened the next day, although initially I will admit that I didn’t want to tell him. I know I am loyal to my H and nothing like this will ever happen again. He doesn’t believe me, however, and he also doesn’t believe me that I stopped it. He said if I had, I would have called him straight away, not left it until the next day, and for all he knows I was "with" the other man all night. He says that I don’t have the emotional maturity to be in a committed relationship and he doesn’t know if he can ever trust me again. 

Everyone is telling me that he is being unfair and that he deliberately pushed me away. We were on a break etc. I don’t completely agree with that – because I know how I felt when I kissed the other man. I felt disgusting. And they love me so, of course, they are going to take my side. 

What do I do? I’m really confused about everything. My H says he doesn’t think he can get past this, but he is ringing me (and my friend) every night to “check” on me (that I am at her place, not out screwing someone), but when I ask to come home, he says he needs to think about it.


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## Bibi1031

You were set free. You need to end your marriage. He used the break to get rid of you. He is upset because he is projecting and set you free so he could Persue his freedom as well. 

Things backfired when his plan B didn't stay put until he was good and ready to be honest with you. He is probably cheating on you if he wanted a break from marriage. He is projecting because he probably did have sex with someone else and that is why he believes you had sex with a guy too. 

You were his plan B. He can shove his plan B where the sun don't shine honey. You deserve better. File for divorce and snoop. You will find evidence of a third person in your marriage. 99% of couples don't ask for a break in the marriage unless a third party has been introduced into the mix! 

He is cheating!


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## camerashy

@Bibi1031 ... I would be lying if I said I hadn't thought about that possibility for a second. My friend that I am staying with at the moment was in a relationship where she was constantly accused of cheating - and it turned out that her boyfriend was the actual cheater. My friend says that my H calling to "check up" on me and wanting to put her on the phone all the time (so he knows I'm there) is similar behavior that her ex-partner exhibited. I just don't see how it can be a possibility, though. My H and I are always together...yes, I do travel a lot for work (I am a photographer), but I don't exactly have a regular working schedule. And I have never seen any other signs that he is cheating.


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## MrsAldi

What were these rumours that were said about him at work? 
If you can tell if possible? 

Can he quit this job & find another? 
Do you really want him back? 













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## Bibi1031

That's why you gotta snoop!


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## Thound

You dont want to kiss your husband in public, but you kissed a stranger in a club full of people?


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## MrsAldi

Thound said:


> You dont want to kiss your husband in public, but you kissed a stranger in a club full of people?


It's called "alcohol" amazing isn't it?!
You can get over your social anxiety fears of PDAs in no time! 




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## LosingHim

MrsAldi said:


> It's called "alcohol" amazing isn't it?!
> You can get over your social anxiety fears of PDAs in no time!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


Meh, I don't know. Not saying this wasn't the case here, but my husband is very anti PDA. He'll hold my hand, occasionally pinch my butt if there aren't TOO many people around and hell only give me a quick peck on the lips. No amount of alcohol has ever changed that with him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bibi1031

Thound said:


> You dont want to kiss your husband in public, but you kissed a stranger in a club full of people?


Hmm....interesting how the groping in public didn't catch your eye or the fact that hubby threw her out to the curb for no real good reason. 

How do you think she felt being sent off packing and him leaving her to fend for her needs however she could. 

If you don't want your wife to fend for herself, don't shove her out the door!


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## Bluesclues

If he is cheating with someone at work there would not need to be unaccounted for time. That was my first thought when I read your post too. What was the nature of these work rumors he was upset about? 

But the fact that he MAY be cheating (all based on conjecture) doesn't negate the fact that you DID cheat. You seem to be minimizing what happened. You betrayed your husband and want him to just get over it - it is a big deal, not "just a kiss". It is good that you told him, but you can't expect him to just forgive you and not question what really happened over and over again.


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## camerashy

@MrsAldi A woman about my age from my H workplace, accused my H and another man of sending her inappropriate emails. There was an internal investigation done after the woman failed to produce any evidence, and the computer technicians didn't find anything either. She admitted that she had lied about the emails and quit not long after. My H is a very proud man and a very hard worker. He was very upset that his word was not taken at face value, and that an investigation had to be done. I told him that any accusation of that nature has to be taken seriously (and rightly so) and that it would all blow over. And it did.


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## MrsAldi

LosingHim said:


> Meh, I don't know. Not saying this wasn't the case here, but my husband is very anti PDA. He'll hold my hand, occasionally pinch my butt if there aren't TOO many people around and hell only give me a quick peck on the lips. No amount of alcohol has ever changed that with him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If he thought you dumped him "on a break"
He might go out with the guys, get drunk & Kiss some girl in a club in a bid to get over you, cure his broken heart? 
Hypothetically speaking.

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## camerashy

MrsAldi said:


> It's called "alcohol" amazing isn't it?!
> You can get over your social anxiety fears of PDAs in no time!





Thound said:


> You dont want to kiss your husband in public, but you kissed a stranger in a club full of people?


 @MrsAldi @Thound There was plenty of alcohol had that night, not that it is an excuse for anything. I know what I did was wrong. I knew it then and I have felt sick about it ever since.


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## Bibi1031

Well, I'm sorry to say, but if your husband is such a proud man; he will not forgive you for being weak and vulnerable that you made a mistake while going out to distract yourself. He will never admit that he owns a big part of what his "need for a break" caused. He will give you hell for your mistake. 

I'm sorry, but your marriage is over. He has major issues. At least you didn't waste 20 some years on this messed up man!


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## LosingHim

MrsAldi said:


> If he thought you dumped him "on a break"
> He might go out with the guys, get drunk & Kiss some girl in a club in a bid to get over you, cure his broken heart?
> Hypothetically speaking.
> 
> Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


That is a possibility in the generic sense of the word. I could see him possibly seeking the attention of another female if we were on a break and he was looking to "mend" his broken heart. In fact, I did experience this with him, it just wasn't drunk in a club. With him I don't think any amount of alcohol would change his comfort level with PDA. But he is also a very private person in general. Behind closed doors would be a different story. That could be the case here though, I agree.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## camerashy

LosingHim said:


> Meh, I don't know. Not saying this wasn't the case here, but my husband is very anti PDA. He'll hold my hand, occasionally pinch my butt if there aren't TOO many people around and hell only give me a quick peck on the lips. No amount of alcohol has ever changed that with him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 @LosingHim It definitely wasn't in front of a huge crowd. Only my friend saw. But, I definitely don't even like seeing PDA's, let alone kiss in public. And it's even worse with my husband because he does it as a possessive gesture. He will even stick his hand down my top or under my shirt if there are too many males around. He denies it though.


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## LosingHim

camerashy said:


> @LosingHim It definitely wasn't in front of a huge crowd. Only my friend saw. But, I definitely don't even like seeing PDA's, let alone kiss in public. And it's even worse with my husband because he does it as a possessive gesture. He will even stick his hand down my top or under my shirt if there are too many males around. He denies it though.


I'm not a HUGE fan of PDA. But I do think it's cute if I happen to see someone grab their spouses butt in public or something like that when they think no one is looking. 

On the other hand, sticking his hand up your shirt, to me, is highly inappropriate - especially knowing you don't like it. It's disrespectful to you and those around you. A simple arm around your waist shows protection and "hey, this is mine". A grope up the shirt shows disrespect, IMO.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MrsAldi

OK your husband said the following to you:

Insensitive
Running away from problems
No affection towards him
No communication with him
No respect for him ( his handling of work situation)


He will take you back if you can change, correct? 

Questions: Are you attracted to your husband?
Are you "in love" with your husband? 

BTW (I'm starting to think your husband has a misogynistic complex)



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## Bibi1031

camerashy said:


> @LosingHim It definitely wasn't in front of a huge crowd. Only my friend saw. But, I definitely don't even like seeing PDA's, let alone kiss in public. And it's even worse with my husband because he does it as a possessive gesture. He will even stick his hand down my top or under my shirt if there are too many males around. He denies it though.


OH boy, you picked yourself a winner here! Not!


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## camerashy

LosingHim said:


> I'm not a HUGE fan of PDA. But I do think it's cute if I happen to see someone grab their spouses butt in public or something like that when they think no one is looking.
> 
> On the other hand, sticking his hand up your shirt, to me, is highly inappropriate - especially knowing you don't like it. It's disrespectful to you and those around you. A simple arm around your waist shows protection and "hey, this is mine". A grope up the shirt shows disrespect, IMO.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 @LosingHim @Bibi1031 I can't stand it when he does that. He's only started doing it once we were married. The first time he shoved his hand down my top and copped a feel it was in front of his brother, and I was mortified.


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## Bibi1031

Why, oh why would you want this man back! Run as fast as you can from this jerk. You have been set free. Embrace this new opportunity to choose better this next time around.


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## camerashy

MrsAldi said:


> OK your husband said the following to you:
> 
> Insensitive
> Running away from problems
> No affection towards him
> No communication with him
> No respect for him ( his handling of work situation)
> 
> 
> He will take you back if you can change, correct?
> 
> Questions: Are you attracted to your husband?
> Are you "in love" with your husband?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


 @MrsAldi I don't know if he'll take me back. Part of me thinks that he wouldn't care what I was doing if he didn't want me back. He still calls me every day.

And I do love him. I know he struggles with the fact that we handle things differently. I sometimes think he would prefer it if I was the needy, jealous type. He demonstrates love with physical affection and huge emotive gestures, whereas I show love through time and attention, and conversation. He needs the romantic stuff though. Despite our differences, we get on really well...we balance each other out, I guess. Our sex life has always been really good. I'm definitely attracted to him on a sexual and intellectual level.


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## camerashy

Bibi1031 said:


> Why, oh why would you want this man back! Run as fast as you can from this jerk. You have been set free. Embrace this new opportunity to choose better this next time around.


 @Bibi1031 He isn't always a jerk. The whole going on a "break" thing threw me through a loop though. I'm pretty sure that a "jerk" was the kindest thing I mentally shouted at him. It was like we couldn't be close enough in his point of view, and the next minute he needed space.

He's a very intelligent, ambitious and interesting man. So different from me. Not that I am not those things, just in a different way. I'm happy as long as I have a roof over my head, food in my cupboards and the bills paid. I don't need or find pleasure in material things. I admire his drive. It's like he's always going from one mountain to the next.


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## MrsAldi

@camerashy it will take time for him to forgive the kiss with the other man. 
I'm very curious, what made you kiss the other guy?
Why did you do it? 



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## Bibi1031

camerashy said:


> @MrsAldi I don't know if he'll take me back. Part of me thinks that he wouldn't care what I was doing if he didn't want me back. He still calls me every day.
> 
> And I do love him. I know he struggles with the fact that we handle things differently. I sometimes think he would prefer it if I was the needy, jealous type. He demonstrates love with physical affection and huge emotive gestures, whereas I show love through time and attention, and conversation. He needs the romantic stuff though. Despite our differences, we get on really well...we balance each other out, I guess. Our sex life has always been really good. I'm definitely attracted to him on a sexual and intellectual level.


He has a personality disorder and is a jerk too!

He will never forgive you, and he will never really let you go now either. He will hurt you until you say enough. He is crazy and you can't change crazy, you run away from crazy.


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## Bibi1031

He is hovering. He is using the deluxe model on you. Wake up and get out of his way!


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## 225985

Bluesclues said:


> But the fact that he MAY be cheating (all based on conjecture) doesn't negate the fact that *you DID cheat.* You seem to be minimizing what happened. You betrayed your husband and want him to just get over it - it is a big deal, not "just a kiss". It is good that you told him, but you can't expect him to just forgive you and not question what really happened over and over again.


I disagree. H put the marriage on a break (not just a hold) and threw her out of the house so that he can sort out his head. Well, she gets to do the same. Sort out her head. She kissed a guy - during the marriage break that HE started. She could have gone home with the bar guy if she wanted. But no she did not. She stopped the kiss and felt bad. AND, she told H about what happened. That is not cheating.


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## camerashy

MrsAldi said:


> @camerashy it will take time for him to forgive the kiss with the other man.
> I'm very curious, what made you kiss the other guy?
> Why did you do it?
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


 @MrsAldi It's really pathetic why I did it. I was very drunk (I knew what I was doing though)... I did it because I was hurting and because this man listened to me.


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## camerashy

@MrsAldi ...The man wasn't devastatingly handsome or anything like that. There definitely wasn't a physical attraction (not that looks have anything to do with even that). He was just a regular guy. Who listened.


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## MrsAldi

@camerashy OK so do you think your husband values your opinions? 
Why do you think he doesn't listen to you? 
Does he think you are "nagging" him or does he just shut down your opinions when in conversation? 

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## camerashy

blueinbr said:


> I disagree. H put the marriage on a break (not just a hold) and threw her out of the house so that he can sort out his head. Well, she gets to do the same. Sort out her head. She kissed a guy - during the marriage break that HE started. She could have gone home with the bar guy if she wanted. But no she did not. She stopped the kiss and felt bad. AND, she told H about what happened. That is not cheating.


 @blueinbr @Bluesclues I'm not trying to minimize what happened. I feel terrible about it. I felt like I was continuously spinning in a tumble dryer and I just wanted that to stop...just for one second. It's no excuse for my actions though - there are no "buts" in marriage. You're in or you're out. I get that I'm the one who is in the wrong. I have never been that drunk that I don't know exactly what I'm doing.


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## GusPolinski

First, all of the "you were on a break, so it's OK" crap is exactly that -- CRAP -- and anyone throwing that at you doesn't exactly have your best interests in mind, and they're certainly no friend to your marriage. Be married -- and conduct yourself as such -- until you're not. No breaks, no free passes, none of that crap. With that in mind, I'd advise you to put an end to any clubbing, going out w/ friends, etc for the time being.

Second, it's actually a good thing that you confessed everything to your husband. It says a lot about your character, so be proud of that. That said, I can understand why your husband wouldn't believe that it was "just making out". Either way, no more of that.

Third, you've got to get back into the house. You can't fix your marriage if you're not fully present in your marriage. If he still wants space, one of you can sleep in the other room, on the couch, or whatever.

Fourth, have you received any version of the "I love you, but I'm not _in love_ with you" speech? Has he recently changed any of his behaviors w/ respect to openness w/ electronic devices, e-mail, social media, or any of that? Does he constantly have his phone by his side?


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## GusPolinski

camerashy said:


> @blueinbr @Bluesclues I'm not trying to minimize what happened. I feel terrible about it. I felt like I was continuously spinning in a tumble dryer and I just wanted that to stop...just for one second. *It's no excuse for my actions though - there are no "buts" in marriage. You're in or you're out.* I get that I'm the one who is in the wrong. I have never been that drunk that I don't know exactly what I'm doing.


I like this, and I agree.

Your head is in a good place, IMO.


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## 225985

camerashy said:


> I'm not trying to minimize what happened. I feel terrible about it. I felt like I was continuously spinning in a tumble dryer and I just wanted that to stop...just for one second. It's no excuse for my actions though - there are no "buts" in marriage. You're in or you're out. I get that I'm the one who is in the wrong. I have never been that drunk that I don't know exactly what I'm doing.


You do not have to minimize it but don't dwell on it. 

As for the "You're in or you're out", yes that sounds great. But what does it mean? Your H right now is OUT of the marriage. And that was BEFORE the kiss. Stopping the kiss and your subsequent actions showed that you are indeed IN.


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## camerashy

MrsAldi said:


> @camerashy OK so do you think your husband value your opinions?
> Why do you think he doesn't listen to you?
> Does he think you are "nagging" him or does he just shut down your opinions when in conversation?
> 
> Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


 @MrsAldi My husband has taught me one very important thing over the past 3 1/2 years that we've known each other... that hearing and listening are 2 very different things. He has the mechanics to hear, but he doesn't always "get" it. If you know what I mean?

I can't complain, though, I can be just as bad if I truly believe I'm right about something. I stop listening.

With my H...he jumps in head first, with little forethought. He has fantastic ideas, but he sucks at making plans. If I try to say, have you thought about this? What about that? He thinks I'm trying to derail his plans, he gets emotional and shuts off. Then he goes and does whatever it was anyway. And that's fine...but I don't feel like he values my opinions, no. If I just shut up and said that's amazing, what a great idea...he thinks im the most wonderful person in the world

And to be fair to my H...as soon as he gets too emotional or starts raising his voice, I check out.


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## drifting on

Posted by camerashy 

But when I got home, my H and I started arguing a lot more than usual and it felt like he was deliberately picking at pointless things in order to start a fight. He also said some pretty hurtful comments (I am too insensitive, I run away from our problems, I’m not affectionate enough, I don’t communicate etc). I will admit that I kind of lost a little bit of respect for him at that time (I thought how he was handling the whole situation was very childish). Sure, I am not as emotional as he is, and I don’t like emotional outbursts…but it doesn’t mean I don’t have feelings. And I think I communicate them well enough. As for not being affectionate… that is not exactly true…I just don’t like him squeezing my a** in public or kissing me in front of other people etc (which he tries to do a lot).




In my opinion this was very important. Your husband was vulnerable to you in saying what had him concerned. Probably felt as if you didn't have his back, and then you showed the worst behavior possible, you cheated. Not only did you cheat but you did with another man what you wouldn't do for your husband. Your husband groping under your shirt is inappropriate, but your offense has a good possibility of ending the marriage. 

Your husband basically gave you a shyt test, you failed, instead of working on what he had concerns about you leapt into the arms of another man because "he listened". Your husband is not innocent in the marriage problems, he is fifty percent responsible just like you. You need to understand you were on a break, to see if you were compatible, etc, but STILL MARRIED with no separation agreement. That means neither should be out looking for others or cheating with others. He stated it was to see if you two could remain married and work through this. 

I think it's a possibility he is cheating, or he was very hurt by his firm not believing his word, combined by his wife who lost respect for him. When my wife doesn't stand supportive behind me I wonder why. Am I wrong? Am I not seeing what she sees? Why would she take this stance? Did she lose respect for me? You admit to losing respect, I wonder if you also didn't show this. Marriage is being united, standing together against the world, and this was not an issue in the marriage. You didn't support your husband and in fact lost respect for him, that's crushing for a prideful man to feel who has a strong belief in honesty and honor. I work hard at my job, my word is me, my work ethic is my honor, I wear this on my sleeve, and if my word is questioned by an accusation I get hostile. My company knows me well, every accusation is investigated, and every accusation disqualified. But each accusation kicks your pride in your teeth, and if I didn't get support from my wife I would be further enraged. Does your husband support you in these types of issues?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## camerashy

GusPolinski said:


> First, all of the "you were on a break, so it's OK" crap is exactly that -- CRAP -- and anyone throwing that at you doesn't exactly have your best interests in mind, and they're certainly no friend to your marriage. Be married -- and conduct yourself as such -- until you're not. No breaks, no free passes, none of that crap. With that in mind, I'd advise you to put an end to any clubbing, going out w/ friends, etc for the time being.
> 
> Second, it's actually a good thing that you confessed everything to your husband. It says a lot about your character, so be proud of that. That said, I can understand why your husband wouldn't believe that it was "just making out". Either way, no more of that.
> 
> Third, you've got to get back into the house. You can't fix your marriage if you're not fully present in your marriage. If he still wants space, one of you can sleep in the other room, on the couch, or whatever.
> 
> Fourth, have you received any version of the "I love you, but I'm not _in love_ with you" speech? Has he recently changed any of his behaviors w/ respect to openness w/ electronic devices, e-mail, social media, or any of that? Does he constantly have his phone by his side?


 @GusPolinski I don't think my marriage has many friends, unfortunately. Our parents, maybe...and even that took time. That's part of the reason I came to TAM, I needed some objective advice, rather than all the "you were on a break" "it's not your fault" stuff from the people who don't particularly like my H.

He doesn't want me to come home yet, which is really hurting. I don't feel like anything is getting solved from where I am now, and I know his head is doing him in thinking I'm out hooking up with people. It hurts he even thinks that of me, but that's my fault.

Technology wise...we keep things pretty separate. I never really pay any attention to his phone or social media. I think he pays attention to mine though.

He told me loved me yesterday, but that's honestly probably the first time either of us has said for months.



blueinbr said:


> You do not have to minimize it but don't dwell on it.
> 
> As for the "You're in or you're out", yes that sounds great. But what does it mean? Your H right now is OUT of the marriage. And that was BEFORE the kiss. Stopping the kiss and your subsequent actions showed that you are indeed IN.



@blueinbr I honestly feel like he's pushing me away, but he wants to make sure I'm not with anyone else at the same time. I don't know what that means.


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## camerashy

drifting on said:


> In my opinion this was very important. Your husband was vulnerable to you in saying what had him concerned. Probably felt as if you didn't have his back, and then you showed the worst behavior possible, you cheated. Not only did you cheat but you did with another man what you wouldn't do for your husband. Your husband groping under your shirt is inappropriate, but your offense has a good possibility of ending the marriage.
> 
> Your husband basically gave you a shyt test, you failed, instead of working on what he had concerns about you leapt into the arms of another man because "he listened". Your husband is not innocent in the marriage problems, he is fifty percent responsible just like you. You need to understand you were on a break, to see if you were compatible, etc, but STILL MARRIED with no separation agreement. That means neither should be out looking for others or cheating with others. He stated it was to see if you two could remain married and work through this.
> 
> I think it's a possibility he is cheating, or he was very hurt by his firm not believing his word, combined by his wife who lost respect for him. When my wife doesn't stand supportive behind me I wonder why. Am I wrong? Am I not seeing what she sees? Why would she take this stance? Did she lose respect for me? You admit to losing respect, I wonder if you also didn't show this. Marriage is being united, standing together against the world, and this was not an issue in the marriage. You didn't support your husband and in fact lost respect for him, that's crushing for a prideful man to feel who has a strong belief in honesty and honor. I work hard at my job, my word is me, my work ethic is my honor, I wear this on my sleeve, and if my word is questioned by an accusation I get hostile. My company knows me well, every accusation is investigated, and every accusation disqualified. But each accusation kicks your pride in your teeth, and if I didn't get support from my wife I would be further enraged. Does your husband support you in these types of issues?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 @drifting on I definitely understand what you are saying, and I tried really hard to support him through the allegations that were made against him. It wasn't the conflict at work that made me lose respect for him, it was how he handled it, the remarks he made etc. The way he tried to make me feel bad about myself because he was feeling bad. The way he moped around like a child and how he acted like "how dare they" when they had no choice but to investigate the allegations. It was just procedure.

And as for the other stuff...yeah that (the details) hurt him a lot. I was very honest with him about everything. He asked questions, I answered them...he hung up on me, then called back. The whole thing is just s*** really, and I don't know if he believes me when I say I'm sorry. He definitely doesn't believe me that I didn't sleep with him. He's said very hurtful things and I've just taken it, because I know the gravity of the situation


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## Bibi1031

camerashy said:


> @GusPolinski I don't think my marriage has many friends, unfortunately. Our parents, maybe...and even that took time.
> 
> *Your family can smell an abuser from miles away. I'm afraid Your husband stinks of it *
> 
> 
> 
> @blueinbr I honestly feel like he's pushing me away, but he wants to make sure I'm not with anyone else at the same time. I don't know what that means.


That's how abusers are! Read about hovering in regards to abuse. You may think it's not possible, but I see so many red flags in your husband's behavior through the few posts you have written here. 

Love makes us blind and easy prey to Personality disorder cuckoo nuts!

Please read about this and see your husband's behaviors without the rose colored glasses of love. You will be sadly enlightened. But it's better to be knowledgeable than to remain blind and easy prey for someone that can never be there for you because he is incapable. It's ALL about HIM


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## MrsAldi

@camerashy what happens when he gets "too emotional"
This makes you shut down because he cannot reason with you? 
Perhaps he doesn't value your opinion because he doesn't understand. 
You are very emotionally intelligent & logical, he probably isn't. 
My husband can be the same. 
I have to be gentle & sympathetic sometimes, be on his side. 
He sounds like a good guy but was possibly "babied" by his parents. 
So he requires a lot of attention & support. 



Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## threelittlestars

Well you cheated! Bad girl. 

On the other hand you were very much confused and reeling from WTF you husband is doing. He is not communicating and you are not making the best decisions based on the LITTLE knowledge your husband has given you. 

On the inappropriate emails he allegedly sent.... Curious. Seems to me that SOMETHING inappropriate must have happened even if she admitted lying about the emails. Maybe something physical and not on the computer happened. Your husbands actions SCREAM OF GUILT is some capacity. 

He is a BAD husband as well. 

Get some space. Get some strength and think very seriously about leaving him. He is all wrong in the head. YOU should leave him. not the other way around. He pushed you out the door.


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## ThePheonix

camerashy said:


> And I do love him. I'm definitely attracted to him on a sexual and intellectual level.


Cammy, despite this, it sounds like you're married to a guy that can become a real horses ass in a hurry when things don't go his way.


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## camerashy

Bibi1031 said:


> That's how abusers are! Read about hovering in regards to abuse. You may think it's not possible, but I see so many red flags in your husband's behavior through the few posts you have written here.
> 
> Love makes us blind and easy prey to Personality disorder cuckoo nuts!
> 
> Please read about this and see your husband's behaviors without the rose colored glasses of love. You will be sadly enlightened. But it's better to be knowledgeable than to remain blind and easy prey for someone that can never be there for you because he is incapable. It's ALL about HIM


 @Bibi1031 I think my H's hovering is more about his nature and his insecurities than anything else. I don't think he's a bad person.


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## Bibi1031

camerashy said:


> @Bibi1031 I think my H's hovering is more about his nature and his insecurities than anything else. I don't think he's a bad person.


OH I agree that he is not a bad person, just a crazy, ill person that will not change because he thinks there is nothing wrong with him. That's why it's very difficult to cure personality disorders. 

It's your life and your journey. You will see the truth only when you are ready. Just be careful along the way and stop blaming yourself for your mistake! He will blame and guilt you plenty for it already.


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## camerashy

MrsAldi said:


> @camerashy what happens when he gets "too emotional"
> This makes you shut down because he cannot reason with you?
> Perhaps he doesn't value your opinion because he doesn't understand.
> You are very emotionally intelligent & logical, he probably isn't.
> My husband can be the same.
> I have to be gentle & sympathetic sometimes, be on his side.
> He sounds like a good guy but was possibly "babied" by his parents.
> So he requires a lot of attention & support.
> Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


 @MrsAldi and I think this applies to what you said also @thephoenix 

What happens when he gets too emotional? He shoots off like a rocket, yells sometimes says things he shouldn't, and comes down again very quickly. I just can't handle it. I'm not saying I never get angry or yell, but I can count on one hand how many times that has happened in the last decade. It's just too hard to communicate with angry people...they get irrational.

I close off because I have to. It's conditioned into me from being in an abusive relationship when I was a teenager. When I tell my H this, he hates it and tells me that he hates that anyone has ever put their hands on me that way, but he shouldn't have to pay for another person's mistakes. He also thinks that I shut off because I don't care enough.




threelittlestars said:


> Well you cheated! Bad girl.
> 
> On the other hand you were very much confused and reeling from WTF you husband is doing. He is not communicating and you are not making the best decisions based on the LITTLE knowledge your husband has given you.
> 
> On the inappropriate emails he allegedly sent.... Curious. Seems to me that SOMETHING inappropriate must have happened even if she admitted lying about the emails. Maybe something physical and not on the computer happened. Your husbands actions SCREAM OF GUILT is some capacity.
> 
> He is a BAD husband as well.
> 
> Get some space. Get some strength and think very seriously about leaving him. He is all wrong in the head. YOU should leave him. not the other way around. He pushed you out the door.


 @threelittlestars I 100% believe him about the emails, but I have no idea why she targeted my H specifically. And yeah, I still don't know why he pushed me so far away at the first hint of trouble.


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## just got it 55

camerashy said:


> @MrsAldi My husband has taught me one very important thing over the past 3 1/2 years that we've known each other... that hearing and listening are 2 very different things. He has the mechanics to hear, but he doesn't always "get" it. If you know what I mean?
> 
> I can't complain, though, I can be just as bad if I truly believe I'm right about something. I stop listening.
> 
> With my H...he jumps in head first, with little forethought. He has fantastic ideas, but he sucks at making plans. If I try to say, have you thought about this? What about that? He thinks I'm trying to derail his plans, he gets emotional and shuts off. Then he goes and does whatever it was anyway. And that's fine...but I don't feel like he values my opinions, no. If I just shut up and said that's amazing, what a great idea...he thinks im the most wonderful person in the world
> 
> *And to be fair to my H...as soon as he gets too emotional or starts raising his voice, I check out*.


OP That is fair

55


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## camerashy

Bibi1031 said:


> Just be careful along the way and stop blaming yourself for your mistake! He will blame and guilt you plenty for it already.


 @Bibi1031 I only wish I knew how much more of it (guilt/blame) theres going to be. I know I did wrong, but it's really hard from this side too.


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## aine

Unforunately you cheated so that has given your H ammunition against you and enabled him to sweep away his terrible actions leading to your 'break.'

What you did was wrong absolutely but he was culpable in pushing you out of the marriage. He sounds immature and it is not your responsibility to carry his burden.
He got want he wanted i.e. a break, but you took it further that he thought you would

you should tell him you love him, what you did was totally wrong and that is on you but what he did pushing you out of hte marriage is totally on him. 
You should give him a deadline as regards the marriage, go no contact and do the 180 on him. It is a possibility he is cheating because it is not the normal reaction of a spouse to chase their oh away when they are going through difficult times, normally they lean into the marriage. Something off here .

Tell him to examine his own actions, why did he want to have a break? He cannot treat you as an addendum when he feels like it. You have to have some self respect and he needs to grow up.


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## RWB

Cam,

Married 2 years, 29 and 34, assume no kids?

Marriage is not a Saturday afternoon pickup basketball game at the park... "Hey guys, I'm pooped, going to take a breather (break) for 15". A "break" in marriage is nothing more than a weak euphemism for Separation. Done unilaterally or mutually, the barn door is left wide open. You and H are not teenagers in a HS romance. You knew the dangers the inherent risks. Was MC never discussed as an alternative?

Lastly, if you and H decide to R this mess that both have created, MC is a must. Your H has his own issues. You need to return to the home. Stop listening to your GFs about how you have been wronged. They are driving a wedge in your marriage. You need to own your cheating. Your drunken kiss, your illicit desire for attention aside from your H is very telling. You have definite boundary problems and the "next" time will be worse.


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## just got it 55

aine said:


> Unforunately you cheated so that has given your H ammunition against you and enabled him to sweep away his terrible actions leading to your 'break.'
> 
> What you did was wrong absolutely but he was culpable in pushing you out of the marriage. He sounds immature and it is not your responsibility to carry his burden.
> He got want he wanted i.e. a break, but you took it further that he thought you would
> 
> you should tell him you love him, what you did was totally wrong and that is on you but what he did pushing you out of hte marriage is totally on him.
> You should give him a deadline as regards the marriage, go no contact and do the 180 on him. It is a possibility he is cheating because it is not the normal reaction of a spouse to chase their oh away when they are going through difficult times, normally they lean into the marriage. Something off here .
> 
> T*ell him to examine his own actions, why did he want to have a break? He cannot treat you as an addendum when he feels like it. You have to have some self respect and he needs to grow up.*


:iagree:

My very first thought

55


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## camerashy

aine said:


> Unforunately you cheated so that has given your H ammunition against you and enabled him to sweep away his terrible actions leading to your 'break.'
> 
> What you did was wrong absolutely but he was culpable in pushing you out of the marriage. He sounds immature and it is not your responsibility to carry his burden.
> He got want he wanted i.e. a break, but you took it further that he thought you would
> 
> you should tell him you love him, what you did was totally wrong and that is on you but what he did pushing you out of hte marriage is totally on him.
> You should give him a deadline as regards the marriage, go no contact and do the 180 on him. It is a possibility he is cheating because it is not the normal reaction of a spouse to chase their oh away when they are going through difficult times, normally they lean into the marriage. Something off here .
> 
> Tell him to examine his own actions, why did he want to have a break? He cannot treat you as an addendum when he feels like it. You have to have some self respect and he needs to grow up.


 @aine @just got it 55 At the moment, he wont accept any responsibility for anything. My actions are the only thing he wants to talk about. I might have to stop contact for a while, to give him space to examine his side of things...and to be honest, I know this is my fault, but I think the way he's speaking to me, checking up on me isn't quite right. I just wanna go home.


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## camerashy

RWB said:


> Cam,
> 
> Married 2 years, 29 and 34, assume no kids?
> 
> Marriage is not a Saturday afternoon pickup basketball game at the park... "Hey guys, I'm pooped, going to take a breather (break) for 15". A "break" is nothing more than a weak euphemism for Separation. Done unilaterally or mutually, the barn door is left wide open. You and H are not teenagers in a HS romance. You knew the dangers the inherent risks. Was MC never discussed as an alternative?


 @RWB No, counselling was never discussed. Somehow I don't think he would be very receptive. I don't even know if I am. In any case, we never talked about it. It felt like a separation. I didn't know what it was. We just fought about anything..everything...the most stupid things.

And no, thankfully, no kids yet. Not that we didn't want them. We were pretty blase about it. If it happened, it happened etc.


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## farsidejunky

camerashy said:


> @Bibi1031 I think my H's hovering is more about his nature and his insecurities than anything else. I don't think he's a bad person.


Do you think abuse has malicious intent?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Bibi1031

camerashy said:


> @RWB No, counselling was never discussed. Somehow I don't think he would be very receptive.
> 
> *No surprise there :*
> 
> I don't even know if I am.
> 
> *You would most certainly benefit fron IC, regardless of whether your marriage survives or not. *
> 
> In any case, we never talked about it. It felt like a separation. I didn't know what it was. We just fought about anything..everything...the most stupid things.
> 
> *His anger can't make him reason properly*
> 
> And no, thankfully, no kids yet. Not that we didn't want them. We were pretty blase about it. If it happened, it happened etc.


Well, thank goodness for that. You guys have some "issues" to sort through.

If you want to go home, you should. He can't kick you out without lawfully doing it. He doesn't get to kick you out of your own home. You have rights you are allowing him to take away from you.


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## donny64

As someone who has just recently gone through this with my W, I can tell you "just a kiss" (make out session in a semi-private place) is still terribly hard to get past, and in my mind damages trust the same as if she'd of blown some guy off. You had an intimate moment with another man, not your husband, and there are only two people who really know what happened, those being you and this other guy. Really hard to look at your W knowing she was making out with another man (as she would not do with you), and imagining where everyone's hands were, how she looked, acted, what actions led to it, etc. 

A few things though. He wanted a "break". 

- A "break" is not a divorce, and does not open the door for cheating. A break from each other is for time to clear the head, be alone, and sort through things. It's not some magical "hall pass" that allows one to cheat.

- Accept the fact you did cheat. And own it. It's not very high up on the physical cheating scale, but can damage or sever trust just the same as if you'd have gone much further.

- Were I you, I'd be looking VERY HARD at him right now to see if he's in an affair. He may have wanted the "break" to start or continue something physical with someone else while easing his own guilt by saying to himself "we were on a break". That's a b.s. excuse for him, the same as it should be for you.

- You did good by coming clean the next day. Better that than him finding out some time later from another source.

Sounds to me like you need to get to the bottom of what is causing his behavior. Find out if he's cheating. If he is, or isn't, it is time for marriage counseling. You both have issues, and you can't even be sure of what those issues are yet. He's putting out red flags, and you both need to find better ways to handle marital issues and disruptions. 

Having said that, he is being perhaps not "unfair", but is an idiot. You tell your W you want to "take a break" from the marriage, and don't spell out that this break is for "time away" and "all marriage vows and promises still in full force and effect", and well, you play those kind of stupid games, and you win those kind of stupid prizes. Also having said that, you knew better, even if it wasn't spelled out and agreed to. You knew it was wrong. And you did it anyway. Don't expect him to just be okay with it.

Now....investigate and find out if he's cheating. Putting a marriage back together after cheating (the kiss and grope WAS cheating) is hard enough when there is only that hanging out there. If he's also cheating, it's going to be impossible, and he will use it to beat you over the head with every chance he gets, and will use it as justification to continue his own shenanigans.


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## bandit.45

Looking through this thread the conclusion that I come up with is that Camera is a runner and her husband is a control freak. He's not an abuser or mentally ill. He's just a petulant, immature boy throwing a fit when things don't go his way, and I would imagine that behavior is what landed him in trouble at work. 

Camera runs from conflict and looks for comfort where she can find it when she is frightened. In this case it was in the arms of a player, who saw her vulnerability and pounced on her like a leopard. He would have taken her to his car for a quickie had she not stopped him. 

This marriage is salvageable and could be a good one with some counseling and mutual hard work, but both Camera and her husband have to want it. They have to both grow up. 

Camera get back in your house and tell your husband that he can either work with you to fix the marriage as equal partners, or he can pack and leave. Make him an ultimatum. Yes, what you did was stupid, but that does not warrant him acting like a drama lama. You confessed want you did and you are remorseful, now he needs to either accept your apology and work with you or take his anger and move on to someone who can give it back to him.


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## Happilymarried25

I wouldn't have told him you kissed another man. He would have never found out. Odds are he is cheating as most spouses who say "they want a break in the married" are using that an excuse to cheat. He started the arguments to justify leaving. I also wouldn't have moved out, he wants a break from the marriage then he needs to move out. You have only been married a couple of years so I would probably just end it as he will never let you forget that you kissed another man


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## alte Dame

Sometimes you can think and think and analyze and analyze, and you wind up missing the very simple things.

In my opinion:

- There was probably something to the accusation at his workplace, it just didn't show up in the e-mails.

- While you were off on your business trip, your H did something that he doesn't want you to know, thus all the acting out when you returned.

- The break is to have an A.

It's clear that what you did was cheating. There is no such thing as a 'break' in marriage. You are married, separated, or divorced & there are defined expectations for all of those states. A 'break,' no matter who instigates it, is not a hall pass. This isn't high school, so tell your gf's to stop pushing that justification for you.

If there is any chance for your M, I think there has to be real honesty. I would bet the farm that he hasn't been honest with you about his own behavior. You would both need IC.

If I were you, I would make sure I was in my home and I would be starting the 180 to get my head clear.

Please remember that 'I need a separation to think about our relationship,' is well-known code for 'I'm leaving so I can pursue my affair without worrying about you. If the A works out, I can divorce you and introduce my affair lover later as my new love & no one will be the wiser.' Cheaterology 101.


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## LosingHim

I agree that even though you were on a break, you still cheated.

Don't get me wrong, I cheated, and we weren't on a break. I get the fact that the guy listened and you fell for it. You were vulnerable and you let that get to you.

It is still wrong, however, I think you know it's wrong. You confessed immediately and you seem to have remorse. This is good.

What happens though is that on top of what your husband was dealing with, you added betrayal. You kicked him when he was down. (In other words, you took a brick out of the already unstable wall of your marriage). 

On top of the damaged state, you've now added a layer of distrust.

Your husband doesn't sound like a gem. A lot of people here don't think my husbands a gem either, but I get it. I still love mine just as much as you love yours. Warts and all.

It's going to take some time to fix this. But I agree, you can't fix it from a distance. Get back in your home. When my husband and I separated, I told him I wanted the house, he looked for elsewhere to live. Then I realized I couldn't afford the house on my own so I told him he could have it. We remained in the same house. If I had kept the house and he left, or I would've ended up moving out earlier than planned - I don't think we'd still be together. We lived separated under the same roof for 4.5 months while I was buying my own house. A week before I was due to close, he asked me to stay. Had one of us left, I don't think we'd be together right now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## donny64

Happilymarried25 said:


> I wouldn't have told him you kissed another man. He would have never found out. Odds are he is cheating as most spouses who say "they want a break in the married" are using that an excuse to cheat. He started the arguments to justify leaving. I also wouldn't have moved out, he wants a break from the marriage then he needs to move out. You have only been married a couple of years so I would probably just end it as he will never let you forget that you kissed another man


Can't agree with that. As someone who has just gone through this. She got the same advice: "don't tell him, it was a stupid drunken mistake, he'll never find out, you'll only hurt him". 

I found out almost a year later. And the fact that she did not come to me immediately vs. how I did find out, has completely severed the trust I had in her. Had she told me the next day, I'd still be obviously hurt, angry, etc., but it would have shown me she was immediately remorseful, and could still be trusted....possibly not trust her to not make another "mistake", but her integrity would have been in tact, and I would feel I could trust her to own up to any future "mistakes" if they ever happened. I now do not have that. And that is worse than anything that may have taken place that night.

And had she told me, we'd of been dealing with it together, with the same time table. As it is, she rugswept this in her head long ago, and I am just now dealing with the fallout from it. We are working with different schedules on this, and that is not MY fault. Instead of dealing with it together back when we were having some problems, we are dealing with it now after a period of rebuilding the last 6 months or so, in what should have been one of the happiest and most satisfying times of our lives. Instead, all that work for the last 6 months or so that has gone into strengthening the marriage has been all but lost in a cover up and lie. And I have been made to feel like a fool all this time after being around her friend who knew this secret many times, and being in the dark. That just adds salt to the wound.

Nobody does something stupid, or starts an affair thinking they'll get caught. Yet it happens all the time. 

Easy to forgive someone for being human. Not having integrity and not owning up to mistakes on the other hand....


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## RWB

camerashy said:


> @RWB *No, counselling was never discussed. Somehow I don't think he would be very receptive. I don't even know if I am.* In any case, we never talked about it. It felt like a separation. I didn't know what it was. *We just fought about anything..everything...the most stupid things.*
> 
> And no, thankfully, no kids yet. Not that we didn't want them. We were pretty blase about it. If it happened, it happened etc.


The reason I asked about MC... Ten+ years ago, my FWW walked up to me Xmas afternoon and told me she was moving out "taking a break". Her words... _"we are not good for our children like this". _We had been arguing for years about everything, stupid sh!t. I was caught flat footed. 

We never sought MC, never discussed it. Years later, I find out the truth behind all the turmoil in our marriage. She had been secretly cheating with OMs for years and was planning her exit. I basically rug swept the issues at that time, tried to be the "best" H ever. I suspected and even soft-confronted to no-avail. The real issues were never addressed or resolved. More than a decade of my life lost in secrecy and lies. 

I'm not saying your H is cheating, that's your job to determine. And, I'm not condoning your cheating, being honest with him is all you can do now. Just whether you R or D, don't rug-sweep the issues. Life is way too short.


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## RWB

donny64 said:


> I found out almost a year later. And the fact that she did not come to me immediately vs. how I did find out, has completely severed the trust I had in her.
> 
> And had she told me, we'd of been dealing with it together, with the same time table. *As it is, she rugswept this in her head long ago, and I am just now dealing with the fallout from it. We are working with different schedules on this, and that is not MY fault...*


^QFT^


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## Bibi1031

camerashy said:


> @Bibi1031 I only wish I knew how much more of it (guilt/blame) theres going to be. I know I did wrong, but it's really hard from this side too.


Well, you know him better than we do. How long do you think he will keep punishing you with his anger and bitterness. He is not hurt, he is extremely angry. If he were hurt, he would be talking about why this happened and how to stop it or be so damn hurt that you weren't worth wasting anymore energy in someone the looks of you. 

Him harping on your mistake confuses and guilts you into not thinking straight. 

*Why did you leave your home in the first place?*

I wouldn't of left that easily and for 3 long weeks...eek. He really knows how to manipulate you. You want to go home. You love him. You want him to forgive you and take you back. HIM, HIM, HIM. It's all about HIM.

Grow some ovaries girl...if you miss home, go HOME! If you want to work on the marriage, waiting on him is not going to get you there. Leaving and taking a break didn't fix a thing...it made it much much WORSE!

What do you want? What you want matters and you have every right to pursue what matters to YOU. If he doesn't want you, then you implement the 180 to try and move on whether he changes his mind or not. You will detach and start feeling better.


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## Marc878

Check your phone bill just to make sure. Your honesty is commendable.

Life sucks if you have to live with an azzhole. No matter what put some thought into what you want going forward.

Everyone is correct. Get back in your home right now.


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## ABHale

camerashy said:


> @MrsAldi I don't know if he'll take me back. Part of me thinks that he wouldn't care what I was doing if he didn't want me back. He still calls me every day.
> 
> And I do love him. I know he struggles with the fact that we handle things differently. I sometimes think he would prefer it if I was the needy, jealous type. He demonstrates love with physical affection and huge emotive gestures, whereas I show love through time and attention, and conversation. He needs the romantic stuff though. Despite our differences, we get on really well...we balance each other out, I guess. Our sex life has always been really good. I'm definitely attracted to him on a sexual and intellectual level.




Then why in the world would make out with another man IN FRONT OF YOUR FRIENDS. Not only did you betray your H your did it in front of witnesses. How could your H ever show his face around them with out knowing what they saw and approved of. Let alone as stated earlier, it is something you would never have done with him. Why would you expect him to get past this any time soon. You have shown "to him" a willingness to be sexual in public with another man but not him.

This is what I believe he is having a problem with, just my opinion.

Remember also he can be calling into question you traveling with your work now? He might start thinking things had happened during these trips. No I am not saying anything happened, just what might be going thru his head.

I am not going to say he is cheating, I have never cheat nor has my wife as far as I know but have needed space at times. Work has always been able to accommodate that. So no need of saying what your H had to.

By the way him groping you infront of others is wrong. That is just rude and disrespectful to you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ABHale

blueinbr said:


> I disagree. H put the marriage on a break (not just a hold) and threw her out of the house so that he can sort out his head. Well, she gets to do the same. Sort out her head. She kissed a guy - during the marriage break that HE started. She could have gone home with the bar guy if she wanted. But no she did not. She stopped the kiss and felt bad. AND, she told H about what happened. That is not cheating.


I think you are confusing time apart to divorce. If he had done the same to her I would telling him he fdup. Couples need time apart at times, it does not give either one the right to do things they would not do in front of one another when together. Did she cheat? Really it up to her husbands opinion. Would I be mad a hell if my wife did this, you have no idea how pissed I would be, exspecially sence it was in front of others.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bibi1031

ABHale said:


> you have no idea how pissed I would be, exspecially sence it was in front of others.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Why especially in front of others?


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## ABHale

Bibi1031 said:


> Why especially in front of others?


Because it shows a complete disregard for the SO. It like throwing it in their face, like saying fu I don't give a ssst about you or your feelings. Where if it was done away from others just the two of them then at least it shows no intention of trying to hurt the SO. Let's face it, she had to tell her husband before he found out from someone else.

There was a couple that were two weeks from the bf proposing. They had been together for around five years. She meets back up with a old 
childhood friend about six months earlier. They hook up and she decides she really loves the bf. So three weeks before the proposal she meets the OM at a bar to say they cannot be friends anymore as well. They end up making out for a couple of mins in the back of the bar where they thought they were not seen. A friend of the bf was there and informed him of what he saw. EXBF publicly humiliated her when he was to propose. She knew about it because she found the ring one day. Finding the ring made her decide to break it off completely with the friend.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bibi1031

ABHale said:


> Because it shows a complete disregard for the SO. It like throwing it in their face, like saying fu I don't give a ssst about you or your feelings. Where if it was done away from others just the two of them then at least it shows no intention of trying to hurt the SO. Let's face it, she had to tell her husband before he found out from someone else
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh wow, that's not even remotely true is this OP case. She was feeling vulnerable, and this guy gave her the attention she needed at the time. Doing it to hurt her husband was not even on her radar. She just used him as a bandaid to ease her pain. It, of course didn't work and she felt terrible after wards. She knew it was cheating and that's why she confessed. She did it out of remorse and not because he could find out. The only person that saw her was the friend that took her in when husband threw her out because he needed a break. 



Her friend, more than likely, would never tell on her friend. Very slim possibility husband would find out, and she would have avoided a lot of grief for herself if she would of been dishonest. 

She was honest though because she is a decent wife that screwed up. She is her worst enemy at holding this mistake against herself. She really needs to cut herself some slack for being human.

This of course would be inexcusable if my SO did this to me in private or in public. The trust would be broken, but I would never kick him out to the curb to fend for himself either.


----------



## MattMatt

camerashy said:


> @MrsAldi It's really pathetic why I did it. I was very drunk (I knew what I was doing though)... I did it because I was hurting and because this man listened to me.


That's a pretty normal reaction when the love of your life has thrown you out based on reasons that are falsifications and jumped up and down on your heart a few times.


----------



## MattMatt

ABHale said:


> I think you are confusing time apart to divorce. If he had done the same to her I would telling him he fdup. *Couples need time apart at times,* it does not give either one the right to do things they would not do in front of one another when together. Did she cheat? Really it up to her husbands opinion. Would I be mad a hell if my wife did this, you have no idea how pissed I would be, exspecially sence it was in front of others.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He threw her out of the marital home. 

That's not "time apart" that's throwing your spouse out of the marital home.

@ABHale would you throw your wife out of your marital home for no valid reason? No. Neither would I.

Camerashy's husband is up to something, I believe.


----------



## Bibi1031

MattMatt said:


> Camerashy's husband is up to something, I believe.


Your belief is spot on dancing kitties! Your whisker senses are sensing something fishy and it ain't Tuna or Salmon, but something very foul!

Double meow! :grin2:


----------



## MrsAldi

@camerashy did your husband ask you to leave? Or did you leave voluntarily? 

Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


----------



## NoChoice

camerashy said:


> @MrsAldi My husband has taught me one very important thing over the past 3 1/2 years that we've known each other... that hearing and listening are 2 very different things. He has the mechanics to hear, but he doesn't always "get" it. If you know what I mean?
> 
> I can't complain, though, I can be just as bad if I truly believe I'm right about something. I stop listening.
> 
> *With my H...he jumps in head first, with little forethought*. He has fantastic ideas, but he sucks at making plans. If I try to say, have you thought about this? What about that? He thinks I'm trying to derail his plans, he gets emotional and shuts off. Then he goes and does whatever it was anyway. And that's fine...but I don't feel like he values my opinions, no. If I just shut up and said that's amazing, what a great idea...he thinks im the most wonderful person in the world
> 
> And to be fair to my H...as soon as he gets too emotional or starts raising his voice, I check out.


OP,
Hearing only your side of this it is impossible to make a determination With any degree of certainty so I will address what I see as concerns regarding your behavior.

As many here have said a "break" is not something you take in a marriage. It would be very disconcerting to me to have that suggested. I am therefore perplexed at your lackadaisical attitude. If your marriage is dying how do you find the motivation to go clubbing?

Would you not instead be trying to salvage whatever you could and save it if possible? You stated that your H declared that you did not have his back. Do your actions not lend truth to this?

I cannot speak to whether or not he is cheating since there is insufficient information to make a judgement but it is apparent that you do not feel for him or your marriage as you claim, consciously or not. If you did you would be mourning the loss not clubbing.

Also, referencing the bolded above, it appears you have more in common with your H than you realize.


----------



## Maxo

camerashy said:


> @aine @just got it 55 At the moment, he wont accept any responsibility for anything. My actions are the only thing he wants to talk about. I might have to stop contact for a while, to give him space to examine his side of things...and to be honest, I know this is my fault, but I think the way he's speaking to me, checking up on me isn't quite right. I just wanna go home.


He may be a jerk ,although we are only getting your side on this,and,as someone who cheated , you have credibility issues.
But,even if he is a jerk or disordered,in no way did that compel you to cheat.
Did you understand a break to mean having relations with others was okay?


----------



## ABHale

MattMatt said:


> He threw her out of the marital home.
> 
> That's not "time apart" that's throwing your spouse out of the marital home.
> 
> @ABHale would you throw your wife out of your marital home for no valid reason? No. Neither would I.
> 
> Camerashy's husband is up to something, I believe.



I was about to pack my wife off to her brothers house just over a year ago, was I cheating no. Bad timing she had been taking myself and th marriage for granted, no emotions talking or being there. I know exactly how OP's H felt. Then to get accused of, how to put this, wife didn't trust one our daughters friends around me. This child had been around us for almost two years. I was in a white fury inside, by her actions she basically did not trust me. So yes I can see a time where a couple need to be apart. About a month later she explained what she meant by her actions, but it was to late the damage had already been done. At the time it happened I kept my cool and didn't let on In front of the kids. We got in to it a month later when I was informing her she was going to her brothers. That is when she explained what she was upset about and not trusting the girl.

Any way I was not cheating. Just felt unwanted by at wife then by her actions, accused. 

So I am not jumping on the bandwagon that he is cheating with no proof. Where as OP has betrayed her husband.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## camerashy

Marc878 said:


> Check your phone bill just to make sure. Your honesty is commendable.
> 
> Life sucks if you have to live with an azzhole. No matter what put some thought into what you want going forward.
> 
> Everyone is correct. Get back in your home right now.


 @Marc878 I want to go home. I don't think anything is going to be worked out with me gone. But, I also don't think anything is going to be worked out with him being so angry.


----------



## ABHale

Bibi1031 said:


> Oh wow, that's not even remotely true is this OP case. She was feeling vulnerable, and this guy gave her the attention she needed at the time. Doing it to hurt her husband was not even on her radar. She just used him as a bandaid to ease her pain. It, of course didn't work and she felt terrible after wards. She knew it was cheating and that's why she confessed. She did it out of remorse and not because he could find out. The only person that saw her was the friend that took her in when husband threw her out because he needed a break.
> 
> 
> 
> Her friend, more than likely, would never tell on her friend. Very slim possibility husband would find out, and she would have avoided a lot of grief for herself if she would of been dishonest.
> 
> She was honest though because she is a decent wife that screwed up. She is her worst enemy at holding this mistake against herself. She really needs to cut herself some slack for being human.
> 
> This of course would be inexcusable if my SO did this to me in private or in public. The trust would be broken, but I would never kick him out to the curb to fend for himself either.



What was meant to be 2 weeks turned into 3 and last weekend I went to a club with a friend and ended up kissing another man. It was nothing but kissing and maybe a little touching above the waist, and I hated it.

This happened at a club, who knows how many people saw them. It really doesn't matter, she made out with another man in public and aloud him to fill her up. Basically do everything she hated her husband doing to her in public. Unless they were the only three people in the place others saw it, she is lucky if no one got it on video with their cell phone. Yes everyone knows there are pervs out there that would.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## camerashy

ABHale said:


> Remember also he can be calling into question you traveling with your work now? He might start thinking things had happened during these trips. No I am not saying anything happened, just what might be going thru his head.
> 
> I am not going to say he is cheating, I have never cheat nor has my wife as far as I know but have needed space at times. Work has always been able to accommodate that. So no need of saying what your H had to.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 @ABHale I was due to go out of town for a weekend wedding shoot (for an extended family member) next weekend in which he has asked me not to go. I have organized someone else to do it for me, but I can't keep doing that forever.


----------



## ABHale

Cam I am not trying to beat you up, I really wish you and your H work this out. I am just defending my point of view. I have been where your H is, just not the betrayal side like is going on with you. 

The problems between my wife and I started over 18 years ago, slowly but steadily. Just so you know where my point of view is coming from. 

Best wishes Cam.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ABHale

camerashy said:


> @ABHale I was due to go out of town for a weekend wedding shoot (for an extended family member) next weekend in which he has asked me not to go. I have organized someone else to do it for me, but I can't keep doing that forever.


I understand, you have your job to do. I was just offering a insight to what he might be thinking.

Cam I do not believe for one minute that you have done anything on your trips, please believe that. 

With what happened he might be questioning it though. That is all I was trying to say. To give some insight to his actions about checking up on you and not wanting you to head out of town. He is going to question everything that has go on in the marriage now. He needs to work through it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## camerashy

@MattMatt @Bibi1031 @NoChoice @MrsAldi @Maxo I am not condoning my behavior in any way, shape or form - but I genuinely did feel like he was throwing me out. One one hand, he was saying that I was refusing to communicate with him and, then, on the other hand, he was saying, I need you to leave so I can figure my head out and what we both want. I didn't just walk out. I thought it was a terrible idea. And I was very confused... yes, we have been arguing a lot since the thing at work happened, but I didn't feel at any point, prior to leaving, that there were any issues that couldn't be ironed out. 


I have done a really stupid, disloyal thing to someone I really love and care about. I just don't think forgiveness is in the cards, even if he decides he wants me to come home. He says he won't ever trust me again.


----------



## Marc878

You both should set down and read "His Needs, Her Needs" together.

You bring another person into the marriage expect it to be over. He can't bring his work issues at home. 

However, some marry who shouldn't have. You both need to figure out if this is feasible long term.

If it is work on it if it isn't move on and don't waste your lives together.

I get the issues. If you want to salvage this you both have a lot of work ahead.


----------



## camerashy

He texted me today, and it reads:

I get that you're sorry but it doesn't change what happened. What you did. I dont know that I can forgive that I dont know. What you did makes me (f word) hate you. I hate you and I (f word) hate that you wont just tell me the truth, like Im nothing to you? You owe me at least that much. 

And later:

So its ok to give it up for someone else but not to your own husband. I mean nothing to you. Your a liar.


----------



## camerashy

This is why as much as I want to go home, I need him to calm down first. He's hurting, and there's nothing wrong with that...but I am hurting too.


----------



## Maxo

camerashy said:


> @MattMatt @Bibi1031 @NoChoice @MrsAldi @Maxo I am not condoning my behavior in any way, shape or form - but I genuinely did feel like he was throwing me out. One one hand, he was saying that I was refusing to communicate with him and, then, on the other hand, he was saying, I need you to leave so I can figure my head out and what we both want. I didn't just walk out. I thought it was a terrible idea. And I was very confused... yes, we have been arguing a lot since the thing at work happened, but I didn't feel at any point, prior to leaving, that there were any issues that couldn't be ironed out.
> 
> 
> I have done a really stupid, disloyal thing to someone I really love and care about. I just don't think forgiveness is in the cards, even if he decides he wants me to come home. He says he won't ever trust me again.


This is,actually,the most common consequence to infidelity. Only a minority of relationships survive it,despite what the "pay for reconciliation services" sites claim.
My own therapist,who said a large part of his practice dealt with couples where there had been cheating,said he sees about 10 percent stay together. I have seen other studies say as high as 30 percent,but no where near the high percentages claimed by those with a profit.motive.
Once someone cheats,it is,most likely statistically,that the marriage is over.
Unfortunately, due to media,movies,novels etc.,many folks are not aware of this.


----------



## Maxo

camerashy said:


> He texted me today, and it reads:
> 
> I get that you're sorry but it doesn't change what happened. What you did. I dont know that I can forgive that I dont know. What you did makes me (f word) hate you. I hate you and I (f word) hate that you wont just tell me the truth, like Im nothing to you? You owe me at least that much.
> 
> And later:
> 
> So its ok to give it up for someone else but not to your own husband. I mean nothing to you. Your a liar.


Of course he feels this way. You betrayed him. Have you not read that many therapists consider infidelity the most extreme form of emotional abuse?
If you had beaten him,wouldn' t you expect a similar reaction? Emotional abuse is every bit as traumatizing,if not moreso,as physical abuse.


----------



## LucasJackson

Whatever you do don't use the "we were on a break" excuse. That's literally one of the worst excuses of all. Never works. You too are still very young. You both need to decide, together, if you want to stay married. If you both bail now you'll minimize damage. If you two want to stay together then I'd advise you not to go out, get drunk, and get freaky with other guys. That tends to be very toxic to marriage.


----------



## Maxo

Bibi1031 said:


> Well, you know him better than we do. How long do you think he will keep punishing you with his anger and bitterness. He is not hurt, he is extremely angry. If he were hurt, he would be talking about why this happened and how to stop it or be so damn hurt that you weren't worth wasting anymore energy in someone the looks of you.
> 
> Him harping on your mistake confuses and guilts you into not thinking straight.
> 
> *Why did you leave your home in the first place?*
> 
> I wouldn't of left that easily and for 3 long weeks...eek. He really knows how to manipulate you. You want to go home. You love him. You want him to forgive you and take you back. HIM, HIM, HIM. It's all about HIM.
> 
> Grow some ovaries girl...if you miss home, go HOME! If you want to work on the marriage, waiting on him is not going to get you there. Leaving and taking a break didn't fix a thing...it made it much much WORSE!
> 
> What do you want? What you want matters and you have every right to pursue what matters to YOU. If he doesn't want you, then you implement the 180 to try and move on whether he changes his mind or not. You will detach and start feeling better.


This early in the discovery,of course he will be angry. He will be both angry and hurt by the betrayal.


----------



## VFW

This is a little confusing to me, why did you have to leave for him to decide what he wants? If he wanted separation, he knew where the door was, why did you leave? He never said that he was going to invite you back anyway, so the kissing thing almost seems like an excuse to divorce. I don't know what the problem is, but this seems to be more about him than the relationship. I also get the feeling that he seems to always wants his way and has a fit if he does not get his way. No of this excuses your lapse in judgement, but I don't consider your transgression a die on the sword issue for the marriage. Sounds like he is using this so that he can be the victim. I think you need to take a serious look at this relationship before you invest more time and effort. Don't evaluate him on what you think he can be, but what he has shown you. In the meantime do not call or cantact him, unless he contacts you first. He does not get to decide if the relationship continues, that has to be a joint decision.


----------



## Slow Hand

Maxo said:


> This is,actually,the most common consequence to infidelity. Only a minority of relationships survive it,despite what the "pay for reconciliation services" sites claim.
> My own therapist,who said a large part of his practice dealt with couples where there had been cheating,said he sees about 10 percent stay together. I have seen other studies say as high as 30 percent,but no where near the high percentages claimed by those with a profit.motive.
> *Once someone cheats,it is,most likely statistically,that the marriage is over.*
> Unfortunately, due to media,movies,novels etc.,many folks are not aware of this.


Agreed, especially if the BS's love language is physical touch and even words of affirmation. Deal breaker, no going back, no do overs. :|


----------



## LucasJackson

Maxo said:


> This is,actually,the most common consequence to infidelity. Only a minority of relationships survive it,despite what the "pay for reconciliation services" sites claim.
> My own therapist,who said a large part of his practice dealt with couples where there had been cheating,said he sees about 10 percent stay together. I have seen other studies say as high as 30 percent,but no where near the high percentages claimed by those with a profit.motive.
> Once someone cheats,it is,most likely statistically,that the marriage is over.
> Unfortunately, due to media,movies,novels etc.,many folks are not aware of this.


To be honest, I even doubt the marriages that "survive" these things. I'd like to put the BS on a poly and see if they're really "over it". I doubt they are. Once that line is crossed, you can't go back.


----------



## Maxo

MattMatt said:


> That's a pretty normal reaction when the love of your life has thrown you out based on reasons that are falsifications and jumped up and down on your heart a few times.


No, it is not normal to cheat after a fight and being asked to leave. Her vows were still in place.


----------



## MattMatt

Maxo said:


> Of course he feels this way. You betrayed him. Have you not read that many therapists consider infidelity the most extreme form of emotional abuse?
> If you had beaten him,wouldn' t you expect a similar reaction? Emotional abuse is every bit as traumatizing,if not moreso,as physical abuse.


Let us not forget the emotional abuse that camerashy's husband put HER through.

Deliberately starting arguments over nothing and the like. 

And declaring that he had to clear his poor befuddled head and that he would only be able to do this by by throwing his wife out of the shared matrimonial home. :wtf:

I have heard of a spouse leaving home to find themselves but never a case when the 'confused' spouse finds themselves at home! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## camerashy

VFW said:


> This is a little confusing to me, why did you have to leave for him to decide what he wants? If he wanted separation, he knew where the door was, why did you leave? He never said that he was going to invite you back anyway, so the kissing thing almost seems like an excuse to divorce. I don't know what the problem is, but this seems to be more about him than the relationship. I also get the feeling that he seems to always wants his way and has a fit if he does not get his way. No of this excuses your lapse in judgement, but I don't consider your transgression a die on the sword issue for the marriage. Sounds like he is using this so that he can be the victim. I think you need to take a serious look at this relationship before you invest more time and effort. Don't evaluate him on what you think he can be, but what he has shown you. In the meantime do not call or cantact him, unless he contacts you first. He does not get to decide if the relationship continues, that has to be a joint decision.


 @VFW I don't actually know why it had to be me who left, it just kind of ended up that way. He has owned the house since before we were married though.


----------



## camerashy

LucasJackson said:


> To be honest, I even doubt the marriages that "survive" these things. I'd like to put the BS on a poly and see if they're really "over it". I doubt they are. Once that line is crossed, you can't go back.


 @LucasJackson That is my single biggest fear


----------



## Maxo

MattMatt said:


> Let us not forget the emotional abuse that camerashy's husband put HER through.
> 
> Deliberately starting arguments over nothing and the like.
> 
> And declaring that he had to clear his poor befuddled head and that he would only be able to do this by by throwing his wife out of the shared matrimonial home. :wtf:
> 
> I have heard of a spouse leaving home to find themselves but never a case when the 'confused' spouse finding themselves!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If we accept Her version ( and,remember we are hearing this from an admitted cheater. So,caveat emptor) , it still does not diminish her level of abuse.


----------



## MattMatt

Maxo said:


> If we accept Her version ( and,remember we are hearing this from an admitted cheater. So,caveat emptor) , it still does not diminish her level of abuse.


Nor does it absolve him from any culpability.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Maxo

camerashy said:


> @Marc878 I want to go home. I don't think anything is going to be worked out with me gone. But, I also don't think anything is going to be worked out with him being so angry.


Do you ,seriously, not expect a betrayed spouse to be angry? Have you read nothing about infidelity? It is almost universal and it lasts a long time.
Get to a library or bookstore and start researching? We are talking 2-5 years.


----------



## Bibi1031

camerashy said:


> @MattMatt @Bibi1031 @NoChoice @MrsAldi @Maxo I am not condoning my behavior in any way, shape or form - but I genuinely did feel like he was throwing me out.
> 
> *That's because he did throw you out! He did it with malice and intent because he knew this was in no way your choice. He manipulated you in a very emotionally abusive way. *
> 
> I have done a really stupid, disloyal thing to someone I really love and care about.
> 
> *Yes you have, but so did he and you can't see it because you feel too guilty to realize he owns a big chunk of the responsibility for the stupid thing you committed. Own your $hit, but see his too!*
> 
> I just don't think forgiveness is in the cards,
> 
> *Of course it's not! He is crazy and will make it all about what a lowlife you are. His anger will not cease...EVER*
> 
> even if he decides he wants me to come home
> 
> .*I dunno, everything is possible with crazy, but one thing I know for sure... His motives are not to build or rebuild your marriage; it's to make you pay for the horrendous thing you did to HIM* .


Read up on the 180 and please find a lawyer and split your assets. Set yourself free and find a place you can call home. Stop waiting on him to have an enlightened moment. Let him know that if he can't talk to you with respect, you will have your lawyer file a restraining order against him. Stop taking HIS $hit!


----------



## Bluesclues

He isn't going to "calm down" with you gone. If anything his mind will add to it. You emasculated him by telling him he was handling his work stuff like a child and then further emasculated him by cheating - in full view of "friends" who already don't like him. And you are regretful, not remorseful - if you had remorse you would not be questioning how much longer the guilt/blame would be going on less than a week after he found out. 

One thing that struck me in one of your earlier posts was that you show love in different ways than your husband - he was physical touch and big romantic overtures - you were more acts of service - but you thought that balanced out. The thing is, that never balances out unless the other spouse sees those things as acts of love. Read the love languages book or even just take the quiz online. It amazing how things we do to show love to our spouses are taken as meh, or worse, because we aren't speaking their love languages, nor they ours. 

I agree with nothing else from an earlier poster except the sentiment to grow a pair and go home. Face the mirk your marriage was in and the layer of crap you added to it head on.


----------



## Maxo

LucasJackson said:


> To be honest, I even doubt the marriages that "survive" these things. I'd like to put the BS on a poly and see if they're really "over it". I doubt they are. Once that line is crossed, you can't go back.


Follow up study done by one woman researcher indicated that after two years or so,every betrayed husband she interviewed that had stayed regretted it.


----------



## camerashy

Maxo said:


> If we accept Her version ( and,remember we are hearing this from an admitted cheater. So,caveat emptor) , it still does not diminish her level of abuse.


 @Maxo I am still a human being capable of understanding right and wrong. I have no reason to lie. For maybe, a split second, I considered not telling him, cause I knew what would happen (I knew how my H and everyone else I know would forever see me differently or "less than")... but I dismissed the thought as quickly as it came. And I confessed immediately.


----------



## Maxo

MattMatt said:


> Nor does it absolve him from any culpability.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It does only relative to her decision to cheat.


----------



## Bibi1031

Maxo said:


> Do you ,seriously, not expect a betrayed spouse to be angry? Have you read nothing about infidelity? It is almost universal and it lasts a long time.
> Get to a library or bookstore and start researching? We are talking 2-5 years.


No need, just look at the CWI part of this forum. Very few of us BS throw our WS to the curb. We want to fix our marriages. We only see reality when we are gas lighted, lied to over and over again with trickle truth, want the affair to be rug swept, etc. 

His reaction is that of a crazy, angry, azzwhole! Some people are just jerks. He is one of these regardless of her transgression.


----------



## camerashy

Maxo said:


> Do you ,seriously, not expect a betrayed spouse to be angry? Have you read nothing about infidelity? It is almost universal and it lasts a long time.
> Get to a library or bookstore and start researching? We are talking 2-5 years.


 @Maxo I understand that. And I agree. But I don't know in my heart that if the situation were reversed that I could say the things he is saying to me. I would be very angry and hurt, absolutely, but I don't think I could call him names and yell at him every time I saw him.


----------



## Maxo

camerashy said:


> @Maxo I am still a human being capable of understanding right and wrong. I have no reason to lie. For maybe, a split second, I considered not telling him, cause I knew what would happen (I knew how my H and everyone else I know would forever see me differently or "less than")... but I dismissed the thought as quickly as it came. And I confessed immediately.


I was referring to your unflattering description of your husband. We see this commonly from women cheaters and it is often innacurrate, as they are dealing with cognitive dissonance and ,also,attempting to enlist support for their actions.


----------



## Maxo

camerashy said:


> @Maxo I understand that. And I agree. But I don't know in my heart that if the situation were reversed that I could say the things he is saying to me. I would be very angry and hurt, absolutely, but I don't think I could call him names and yell at him every time I saw him.


Then you need to research the depth of the trauma cheating causes,as you have no idea of how much pain you have caused.
Also,since you have not experienced this from a spouse,you really cannot accurately say how you would react.
If you read up on this,you will see that,in fact,the way he is acting and speaking is really,really normal for a recently betrayed spouse.


----------



## Maxo

Bibi1031 said:


> No need, just look at the CWI part of this forum. Very few of us BS throw our WS to the curb. We want to fix our marriages. We only see reality when we are gas lighted, lied to over and over again with trickle truth, want the affair to be rug swept, etc.
> 
> His reaction is that of a crazy, angry, azzwhole! Some people are just jerks. He is one of these regardless of her transgression.


This forum is not represntative of the rest of the population dealing with infidelity. In general,the cheaters who post are the cream of the crop and are remorseful. And,many of the BS that post are much more forgiving than the general population of betrayed folks.
Most cheaters leave,lie and discard rather than facing what they have done. Most BS s are never given the opportunity to reconcile.


----------



## Maxo

Bibi1031 said:


> No need, just look at the CWI part of this forum. Very few of us BS throw our WS to the curb. We want to fix our marriages. We only see reality when we are gas lighted, lied to over and over again with trickle truth, want the affair to be rug swept, etc.
> 
> His reaction is that of a crazy, angry, azzwhole! Some people are just jerks. He is one of these regardless of her transgression.


You have insufficient information that is from a questionable source to make that assessment. Even if she is reliable,you are falling I to the " fundamental attribution error" trap,IMO.


----------



## alte Dame

Does he now want the break to be over so that you can go home and deal with this face to face?


----------



## Bibi1031

Maxo said:


> Most BS s are never given the opportunity to reconcile.


The above is really the only part of your quote that I agree with. Very few WS are remorseful enough to do the hard work required by them to reconcile. It doesn't help that by the time they get caught or give the speech, they have already been checked out of the marriage. They set a nest else where and only clue in the BS when they have made a comfy life with someone else. Well, they think they have because most affairs do not make it long term. 

why are you so angry at this WS? She is one of the very few that has been honest to her husband. She is here seeking advice and admits she screwed up royally. She wants to work on her marriage. There is no long term affair that lasted for months or years. She was set free and didn't truly realize it because she was manipulated into leaving her own home when she didn't want to. She gave in to give her husband space that she thought would probably be a couple of days and instead it was weeks


----------



## ABHale

Cam it is going to take a little bit for the anger to subside. When I laid into my wife a year ago about what had gone on for the past 10 to 15 years and the accusation, it was my age and knowing better that stopped the name calling. I was 46 at the time, if it happened when I was around thirty, things would have been said that could never be taken back.

This will not be easy for either of you trying to fix the problems. 

He is feeling you chose another man over him by your actions which always speak louder then words. It will take actions to prove to him that you love him.

You have to decide if you want to fix it.

Anything worth having takes hard work, you have to decide it he is worth having. If so put in the hard work, if it doesn't work out then you know for yourself you did everything you could.


----------



## camerashy

Bibi1031 said:


> Read up on the 180 and please find a lawyer and split your assets. Set yourself free and find a place you can call home. Stop waiting on him to have an enlightened moment. Let him know that if he can't talk to you with respect, you will have your lawyer file a restraining order against him. Stop taking HIS $hit!





Bluesclues said:


> He isn't going to "calm down" with you gone. If anything his mind will add to it. You emasculated him by telling him he was handling his work stuff like a child and then further emasculated him by cheating - in full view of "friends" who already don't like him. And you are regretful, not remorseful - if you had remorse you would not be questioning how much longer the guilt/blame would be going on less than a week after he found out.
> 
> One thing that struck me in one of your earlier posts was that you show love in different ways than your husband - he was physical touch and big romantic overtures - you were more acts of service - but you thought that balanced out. The thing is, that never balances out unless the other spouse sees those things as acts of love. Read the love languages book or even just take the quiz online. It amazing how things we do to show love to our spouses are taken as meh, or worse, because we aren't speaking their love languages, nor they ours.
> 
> I agree with nothing else from an earlier poster except the sentiment to grow a pair and go home. Face the mirk your marriage was in and the layer of crap you added to it head on.


 @Bibi1031 @Bluesclues I see valid points in both of your opinions, despite both opinions being on opposite spectrums. I did emasculate him (twice) and I do need to go home and face the music. But I believe I'm remorseful over what I did. I don't think I would feel so awful if I didn't have some remorse.

But... I don't think he's treating me fairly either. I understand he's angry, I'm angry at me too, and he's hurt...we're both hurting. But there's still something inside me that although it thinks im a s***head for what I did, it's not ok for him to say that to me. It's not that I don't think I deserve "to pay" for what I have done, but I need some sort of reassurance that all the yelling and name calling is going to pass. And I don't think it's ok to ask your wife to leave marital home without much explanation.


----------



## Maxo

Bibi1031 said:


> The above is really the only part of your quote that I agree with. Very few WS are remorseful enough to do the hard work required by them to reconcile. It doesn't help that by the time they get caught or give the speech, they have already been checked out of the marriage. They set a nest else where and only clue in the BS when they have made a comfy life with someone else. Well, they think they have because most affairs do not make it long term.
> 
> why are you so angry at this WS? She is one of the very few that has been honest to her husband. She is here seeking advice and admits she screwed up royally. She wants to work on her marriage. There is no long term affair that lasted for months or years. She was set free and didn't truly realize it because she was manipulated into leaving her own home when she didn't want to. She gave in to give her husband space that she thought would probably be a couple of days and instead it was weeks


I am not angry at her. But,I certainly do not think she has disclosed enough information about her husband for you to claim he is a Cluster B. And,it seems evident to me that she has done little research on the effects of infidelity on a person. 
For God's sake,she has expressed consternation re his anger and is claiming she knows she would be above that reaction. Yet,she has been seriously abusive herself.


----------



## camerashy

alte Dame said:


> Does he now want the break to be over so that you can go home and deal with this face to face?


 @alte Dame I don't think he does. He wants me to go home (because if I can "give it" to someone else, I should be abe to "give it" to my own H), but he doesn't want to reconcile at this point, or so he says. Not until I tell the "truth."


----------



## Maxo

camerashy said:


> @Bibi1031 @Bluesclues I see valid points in both of your opinions, despite both opinions being on opposite spectrums. I did emasculate him (twice) and I do need to go home and face the music. But I believe I'm remorseful over what I did. I don't think I would feel so awful if I didn't have some remorse.
> 
> But... I don't think he's treating me fairly either. I understand he's angry, I'm angry at me too, and he's hurt...we're both hurting. But there's still something inside me that although it thinks im a s***head for what I did, it's not ok for him to say that to me. It's not that I don't think I deserve "to pay" for what I have done, but I need some sort of reassurance that all the yelling and name calling is going to pass. And I don't think it's ok to ask your wife to leave marital home without much explanation.


Again,your husband is reacting in a Avery typical,normal fashion. 
And,you should not see a lawyer and you should completely ignore the assertions that he has a Cluster B personality disorder.
He must meet several criteria for that diagnosis and you have not provided the foundation for him meeting them.


----------



## Bibi1031

camerashy said:


> @Bibi1031 @Bluesclues I see valid points in both of your opinions, despite both opinions being on opposite spectrums. I did emasculate him (twice) and I do need to go home and face the music. But I believe I'm remorseful over what I did. I don't think I would feel so awful if I didn't have some remorse.
> 
> But... I don't think he's treating me fairly either. I understand he's angry, I'm angry at me too, and he's hurt...we're both hurting. But there's still something inside me that although it thinks im a s***head for what I did, it's not ok for him to say that to me. It's not that I don't think I deserve "to pay" for what I have done, but I need some sort of reassurance that all the yelling and name calling is going to pass. And I don't think it's ok to ask your wife to leave marital home without much explanation.



This is so much better than when you chose the title of this thread. Baby steps in the right direction Camerashy!

Understanding that he made you leave without a damn good reason is also another great baby step. 

This is your journey, and you have choices and decisions to make. You don't even have to make any decisions right away either. It's your journey and your time frame too. 

Regardless of how this ends, protect yourself and don't be your husband's punching bag for his anger. That is unacceptable no matter what mistakes you committed.


Keep posting and find friends and family that can get you through this. Please see a therapist ASAP. 

Keep from this site what you need and toss or file the rest.


----------



## Bibi1031

Maxo said:


> I am not angry at her. But,I certainly do not think she has disclosed enough information about her husband for you to claim he is a Cluster B. .


Well to state the obvious, I stand by my observation that he does have a personality disorder based on what she posted and his reactions at work, with her, and his obvious lack of self control when dealing with his anger. 

And absolutely NOT, his anger and verbal abuse towards her is not even close to normal.


----------



## camerashy

Maxo said:


> Again,your husband is reacting in a Avery typical,normal fashion.
> And,you should not see a lawyer and you should completely ignore the assertions that he has a Cluster B personality disorder.
> He must meet several criteria for that diagnosis and you have not provided the foundation for him meeting them.


 @Maxo I don't think he has a personality disorder at all. I think he is a typical Aries man - fiery and passionate, with a short fuse. He's also very generous to the people he cares deeply about, and he cares very deeply about a lot of people. He has a very big heart.

Perhaps it is just because I have not been in this situation before and I don't know how men normally react. It's probably also because I have been in positions before that taught me that when a man gets angry, to tread carefully. It is not that I am scared of my H, I'm not, but I feel like he sometimes forgets what I have been through in my past. And how name calling, and anger, affects me. I already feel 3 apples tall... I can't get a whole lot smaller.


----------



## Bluesclues

I tried to quote your post about reassurances that the name calling would pass but that didn't work out so well..you already know what I am going to say...what are his reassurances that you won't let some drunk guy "listen to you" again? Pretty much the same as him calling you names. 

If that is what you are worried about then save both your time and file for divorce. We are 2 years 4 months out and most days I am fine. It actually brings tears to my eyes how good we are. We made it. But there are triggers that hit you out of the blue - brings me back to day one and the tears and names that come with it. Back in the day he would get mad and sleep on the couch. Now he just listens and tells me he is sorry I ever had to think of him that way. We are actually at the point where I don't say anything at all - but he senses it and comforts me. 

You can get past this together. But you need to be all in and realize he is eating a much bigger **** sandwich than you are


----------



## Bibi1031

camerashy said:


> @Maxo I don't think he has a personality disorder at all.


I honestly can't blame you for not believing this. It's very probable that I am correct though. It took me until just a couple of months ago to realize that I had married an abuser too. I know a thing or two about this subject as I am a counselor in real life. I work in an elementary school and part time in a woman's shelter as well. I deal mostly with children though. But abusers have very similar characteristics in common regardless of what label we choose to attach on them. I couldn't even see it when I was living it! My 2nd X would make me feel so guilty and completely confused that it took me years to see through his crap. 

Yes indeed, I had knowledge and yet I drank his Koolaid for a very long time...sigh


----------



## adriana

Maxo said:


> You have insufficient information that is from a questionable source to make that assessment. Even if she is reliable,you are falling I to the " fundamental attribution error" trap,IMO.



Actually, I completely agree with Bibi1031's assessment of OP's situation and find your ludicrous sense of self-righteousness a bit disturbing. All these self-proclaimed infidelity experts like you are the main reason why this forum has become such a hostile place to post.


----------



## MattMatt

Maxo said:


> No, it is not normal to cheat after a fight and being asked to leave. Her vows were still in place.


I wonder if he no longer wants to be married and now has a perfect excuse to end it due to her ""infidelity?""
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## camerashy

Bibi1031 said:


> I honestly can't blame you for not believing this. It's very probable that I am correct though. It took me until just a couple of months ago to realize that I had married an abuser too. I know a thing or two about this subject as I am a counselor in real life. I work in an elementary school and part time in a woman's shelter as well. I deal mostly with children though. But abusers have very similar characteristics in common regardless of what label we choose to attach on them. I couldn't even see it when I was living it! My 2nd X would make me feel so guilty and completely confused that it took me years to see through his crap.
> 
> Yes indeed, I had knowledge and yet I drank his Koolaid for a very long time...sigh


 @Bibi1031 @adriana I think @Maxo is just being honest in his assessment of the situation. In any case, I have never been in my H's position, and I'm pretty sure there isn't a book on cheating etiquette for the innocent party. To me, it feels a little cruel how my H is treating me - but as so nicely put by @Bluesclues my H is eating a far bigger **** sandwich than I am. I really hate myself for that. I feel guilty for even complaining about the way he treating me.




MattMatt said:


> I wonder if he no longer wants to be married and now has a perfect excuse to end it due to her ""infidelity?""


 @MattMatt I'm feeling a bit like a stray puppy right now...but I'm going to go home and just I don't know...I have to do/try something. I don't know what -- because I have been 100% honest with him and he doesn't believe it. I don't know if he's ever going to trust what I say again. I don't know how we move forward from that. If he doesn't want to make it work, then how can I even begin to change that when I am the one who ruined it.


----------



## chillymorn

OK,ok,ok

So your husband was accused of sending inapropiate emails. Was stressed out about it and because you didn't support him perfectly the way you should have . at least in his mind. he asked you for a break in the marriage.

What the heck dose a break in the marriage even mean?

So you go out and end up kissing another man . tough $hit your husband asked for a break. 

In my opinion this guy is crazy and you should run for the hills this is only the beginning he will only get worse.

I don't think you did anything wrong. 

There are some red flags that he might have been cheating 
Why would a woman fasley accuse him of sending an inapriopiate email.

Why would he ask for a break in the first place. 

Personally I think if you leave now you will be dodging a bullit. Do you want a life long marriage of similliar bull $hit?


----------



## NoChoice

camerashy said:


> @Bibi1031 @adriana I think @Maxo is just being honest in his assessment of the situation. In any case, I have never been in my H's position, and I'm pretty sure there isn't a book on cheating etiquette for the innocent party. To me, it feels a little cruel how my H is treating me - but as so nicely put by @Bluesclues my H is eating a far bigger **** sandwich than I am. I really hate myself for that. *I feel guilty for even complaining about the way he treating me*


And yet you do. OP, I have noticed disparity in your statements versus your behavior. Until you reach the realization that, in this instance with other problems notwithstanding, you must be fully contrite and willing to take whatever venting your H needs to express.

You are not and are instead looking for it all to go away, which is referred to here as rugsweeping. You are hurt by your H's words but he was hurt by your actions. He is using his mouth to express his pain to YOU, you used yours to kiss another man. Until you see how vastly different those two things are you will not be able to R with him.

His character was being questioned at work and to some people their character is dear to them and to have it besmirched is an attack of a very personal nature. He, for reasons only you know, did not feel that you supported him at the level befitting his angst, which is very disheartening to see in a spouse.

To me the "break" is a non issue for if you truly wanted to work through this problem you would have never left your home. Perhaps the thought of a touch of freedom intrigued you, I cannot say with certainty, but you left nevertheless.

If you are sincere about remaining with your H then you will put forth the very arduous work of trying to repair this damage and stop complaining about how he is taking your betrayal.

Or D and move on.


----------



## ABHale

adriana said:


> Actually, I completely agree with Bibi1031's assessment of OP's situation and find your ludicrous sense of self-righteousness a bit disturbing. All these self-proclaimed infidelity experts like you are the main reason why this forum has become such a hostile place to post.


Pot calling the kettle black maybe.🤔
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ABHale

Cam when you go home he might blow off a lot of steam. If he gets physical LEAVE and put his a$$ in jail. With all that is gone on he has no right to hurt you like that. 

The above might happen, I don't think it will just watch yourself. 

I think your have the plan to go forward in this.

Good luck Cam.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## VFW

While I think that you need to be contrite for your infidelity, I don't think you have to stand for any abuse he wants to dish out as punishment. Firstly, never ever let someone lay a hand on you, that is a show stopper and the police need to be contacted, it is a crime. Secondly, I don't believe he gets to call you every name in the book. While you can certainly understand that he is not going to be happy about the situation, we are all required to show one another a minimum amount of respect. I believe that most relationships can be saved if both parties work to fix the problems. I can also tell you through personal experience that you cannot do it by yourself, it is a painful exercise in futility. Some people immediately get over infidelity, while others never do. However, if we choose to reconcile then it behooves us to go all in or our efforts are in vein. At some point he has to decide what he wants to do and conversely you have to do the same. In the meantime I would concentrate your efforts on self help books such as "His Needs, Her Needs" and "The 5 Love Languages". Additionally, I get the sense that you two need better communication skills. The hardest part is the wait while both of you sort this out. I never recommend physical separation without a plan to come back together, it is hard to do it after the fact.


----------



## Marduk

My read?

The break was your husband's way of testing the marriage to see if it was worth making work.

Which resulted in failure. You can decide if it was his failure, or yours, or the marriage's, but at the end of the day you both blew it. 

But you have to own your own ****. You cheated on your husband, and your marriage is dead. Let it die and learn from it. If you wanted your marriage, you wouldn't have kissed that guy.

And by your posts, I seriously doubt that all you did was kiss, and it actually ended as abruptly as that.


----------



## TeddieG

camerashy said:


> @Bibi1031 @Bluesclues I see valid points in both of your opinions, despite both opinions being on opposite spectrums. I did emasculate him (twice) and I do need to go home and face the music. But I believe I'm remorseful over what I did. I don't think I would feel so awful if I didn't have some remorse.
> 
> But... I don't think he's treating me fairly either. I understand he's angry, I'm angry at me too, and he's hurt...we're both hurting. But there's still something inside me that although it thinks im a s***head for what I did, it's not ok for him to say that to me. It's not that I don't think I deserve "to pay" for what I have done, but I need some sort of reassurance that all the yelling and name calling is going to pass. And I don't think it's ok to ask your wife to leave marital home without much explanation.


I asked my h to move out shortly after his confession. I just needed to some time to vomit on a regular basis and suck air any way I could and to sleep in my own bed for the few hours a night i could get some sleep after what he told me. It wasn't permanent and I wanted to salvage our marriage, but I needed to grab the oxygen mask and breathe for a while, and because i DID, I did not say mean and ugly things to him that I would regret later. 

I don't know that this helps you much, since each person is different and you know your h, but he DOES have to get it out of his system before he can figure out what he wants to do.

What bothers me the most is that you say you know he was hurting and is hurting, but so are you. What do you want him to do, put his arms around and kiss you on the head and tell you it will all be okay? This is where the karma hits the road for the wandering spouse, sadly the kind of wandering spouse who might actually remorse, but definitely has regret. How ever much you want to be reassured, when the cheating happened, the point of no return was crossed, and getting it back is hard and WON'T happen if the BS can't handle it. 
@marduk nailed this one.


----------



## LosingHim

marduk said:


> My read?
> 
> The break was your husband's way of testing the marriage to see if it was worth making work.
> 
> Which resulted in failure. You can decide if it was his failure, or yours, or the marriage's, but at the end of the day you both blew it.


This is what I've been thinking but struggling with how to say it. The marriage was damaged, he wanted a break to see how she reacted and she failed the test. 

I'm not saying that's how you save your marriage, but if it WAS a sh*t test, it was failed miserably. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## rzmpf

Looks like the communication problems that were the main problem in the first place continue through the break (no surprise). If your H planned this as some kind of exit, he would already be gone (Unless he is just finalizing the paperwork). Seems more like he wanted to test you, you failed and now he does not know how to deal with the mess because he had no exit plan.

What did you two do during these 3 weeks and what are you doing now to find out if you want to stay married and what are you doing to be able to continue the marriage? We know you tried another man and did not like it, anything else? You did not think of counseling so how did you two think a solution would come about? Have you talked about that? What were you doing when the first 2 weeks were over and no decision was reached? Did you talk to your H?

I think because of your mismatched communication your H felt unsupported during your crisis and wanted the break to get a communication process and a fight for the marriage going. But both of you did not really do anything but waiting for the other to decide and act. (at least for me it comes across as such) Except you cheated and your H calls you every name in the book because nothing happens. And still you both are doing nothing except waiting for the other one to decide (again, your H may have come to a decision and is preparing to D unbeknownst to you).


----------



## MattMatt

chillymorn said:


> OK,ok,ok
> 
> So your husband was accused of sending inapropiate emails. Was stressed out about it and because you didn't support him perfectly the way you should have . at least in his mind. he asked you for a break in the marriage.
> 
> What the heck dose a break in the marriage even mean?
> 
> So you go out and end up kissing another man . tough $hit your husband asked for a break.
> 
> In my opinion this guy is crazy and you should run for the hills this is only the beginning he will only get worse.
> 
> I don't think you did anything wrong.
> 
> There are some red flags that he might have been cheating
> *Why would a woman fasley accuse him of sending an inapriopiate email.*
> 
> Why would he ask for a break in the first place.
> 
> Personally I think if you leave now you will be dodging a bullit. Do you want a life long marriage of similliar bull $hit?


Because he wasn't sending inappropriate emails to her, but to someone else in the office? She was crazy with jealousy and did something really dumb?

There's some crazy stuff happening there. And it revolves around Camerashy's husband.


----------



## MattMatt

TeddieG said:


> I asked my h to move out shortly after his confession. I just needed to some time to vomit on a regular basis and suck air any way I could and to sleep in my own bed for the few hours a night i could get some sleep after what he told me. It wasn't permanent and I wanted to salvage our marriage, but I needed to grab the oxygen mask and breathe for a while, and because i DID, I did not say mean and ugly things to him that I would regret later.
> 
> I don't know that this helps you much, since each person is different and you know your h, but he DOES have to get it out of his system before he can figure out what he wants to do.
> 
> What bothers me the most is that you say you know he was hurting and is hurting, but so are you. What do you want him to do, put his arms around and kiss you on the head and tell you it will all be okay? This is where the karma hits the road for the wandering spouse, sadly the kind of wandering spouse who might actually remorse, but definitely has regret. How ever much you want to be reassured, when the cheating happened, the point of no return was crossed, and getting it back is hard and WON'T happen if the BS can't handle it.
> @marduk nailed this one.


But Camerashy's husband asked her to move out *before* the confession.

Heck! He even asked her to leave before anything happened!

Only a POS sets a s**t test, IMO.

I wonder if the husband asked a buddy or a honey trap plant to make a move on Camerashy? :scratchhead:


----------



## TeddieG

MattMatt said:


> But Camerashy's husband asked her to move out *before* the confession.
> 
> Heck! He even asked her to leave before anything happened!
> 
> Only a POS sets a s**t test, IMO.
> 
> *I wonder if the husband asked a buddy or a honey trap plant to make a move on Camerashy?* :scratchhead:


Got it! So if she hadn't confessed, why did she leave? You have a point, @MattMatt!!


----------



## rzmpf

MattMatt said:


> I wonder if the husband asked a buddy or a honey trap plant to make a move on Camerashy? :scratchhead:


Then it would already be over because he would have had a plan in case she failed. He just does not seem that decisive at least regarding to questions of the marriage (and assuming that he does not use the break to cover up something).

And I would not count a perceived lack of support during a personal/professional crisis nothing.

And to the question why a woman would make up allegations like that there are a myriad of reasons. She is crazy, jealous, they had an affair, she wanted settlement money or whatever.

You could also ask why a woman who did not make up her story confesses her story to be untrue. And there are reasons for that as well (pay off, threats etc.).

But that she had no evidence, no print outs, no saved emails, no texts, no calls outside of work hours and that the technical investigation also provides no evidence sounds really weird and supports that the story was made up.


----------



## MattMatt

TeddieG said:


> Got it! So if she hadn't confessed, why did she leave?


He told her to leave. for no valid reason that I can identify from what she said (he was angry over some work related stuff) and whilst on the break (that the husband wanted) when she was drunk, a guy shoved his tongue down her throat at a nightclub.

She confessed to that and her husband has stamped his feet like a demented flamenco dancer.


----------



## TeddieG

MattMatt said:


> He told her to leave. for no valid reason that I can identify from what she said (he was angry over some work related stuff) and whilst on the break (that the husband wanted) when she was drunk, a guy shoved his tongue down her throat at a nightclub.
> 
> Okay, I guess I get it, don't know why I missed that. I saw people suggesting he was cheating, but I took it as he was angry about the level of support with the conflict at work.
> 
> She confessed to that and her husband has stamped his feet like a demented flamenco dancer.


Got it got it got it. Have GOT to get that new coffee maker. I am not awake, or wasn't when I caught up on this thread. Thank you!


----------



## MattMatt

TeddieG said:


> Got it got it got it. Have GOT to get that new coffee maker. I am not awake, or wasn't when I caught up on this thread. Thank you!


Actually, the problem is *not* with you, TeddieG, it is with her husband.

Logically, if a spouse asks their wife/husband to leave it is because they have cheated.

When a spouse throws their honey out without a valid cause, that causes a discontinuity error in our thinking.

"Wait! Wait! He did... _what???_" 

And this is why there are elements of this story that do not ring true, not because Camerashy is lying to us, but because her husband is lying to her. Or at any rate keeping some keys pieces of information away from her, for some reason or another.


----------



## Marduk

MattMatt said:


> Actually, the problem is *not* with you, TeddieG, it is with her husband.
> 
> Logically, if a spouse asks their wife/husband to leave it is because they have cheated.
> 
> When a spouse throws their honey out without a valid cause, that causes a discontinuity error in our thinking.
> 
> "Wait! Wait! He did... _what???_"
> 
> And this is why there are elements of this story that do not ring true, not because Camerashy is lying to us, but because her husband is lying to her. Or at any rate keeping some keys pieces of information away from her, for some reason or another.


You're expecting any level of insight and introspection from a woman who is so distraught about her failing marriage that she...

Goes clubbing with her girlfriends?

Then makes out with a dude?

Then blames it on the booze?

Then comes here for advice on why her husband won't trust her?

Odds are he told her, and she doesn't want to listen. Or that he's having an affair himself. Or he thought she was. Or anything of a million things.

But this one literally has no idea what is going on in her marriage and no idea why she made out with some random dude (except that he _listened to her_, which doesn't even make sense -- how do you listen on a club dance floor?)


----------



## MattMatt

marduk said:


> You're expecting any level of insight and introspection from a woman who is so distraught about her failing marriage that she...
> 
> Goes clubbing with her girlfriends?
> 
> Then makes out with a dude?
> 
> Then blames it on the booze?
> 
> Then comes here for advice on why her husband won't trust her?
> 
> Odds are he told her, and she doesn't want to listen. Or that he's having an affair himself. Or he thought she was. Or anything of a million things.
> 
> But this one literally has no idea what is going on in her marriage and no idea why she made out with some random dude (except that he _listened to her_, which doesn't even make sense -- how do you listen on a club dance floor?)


Actually a lot of people who, when dumped by their spouse/significant other, have friends who say: "Hey! Come on! Don't sit and mope at home! We'll take you out for a drink or two. We'll do our best to help you forget about what your idiot spouse has done to you!"

By the way, when I was on a business trip to San Francisco in October our hosts took us to a nightclub. There was a live jazz band playing, DJs in another room and conversation was *perfectly* possible, especially in the "VIP" section.


----------



## Marduk

MattMatt said:


> Actually a lot of people who, when dumped by their spouse/significant other, have friends who say: "Hey! Come on! Don't sit and mope at home! We'll take you out for a drink or two. We'll do our best to help you forget about what your idiot spouse has done to you!"
> 
> By the way, when I was on a business trip to San Francisco in October our hosts took us to a nightclub. There was a live jazz band playing and conversation was *perfectly* possible, especially in the "VIP" section.


And it's been my experience that when the relationship is in crisis, how both parties soothe themselves through that is pretty telling.

And you can dance to jazz? I mean, I can barely listen to it.


----------



## MattMatt

marduk said:


> And it's been my experience that when the relationship is in crisis, how both parties soothe themselves through that is pretty telling.
> 
> And you can dance to jazz? I mean, I can barely listen to it.


It was old school jazz, 1920s style. With dancing girls. And lots of free beer. Did I mention the dancing girls? And the free beer?
:rofl:


----------



## Marduk

MattMatt said:


> It was old school jazz, 1920s style. With dancing girls. And lots of free beer. Did I mention the dancing girls? And the free beer?
> :rofl:


Seems like a good place to be for a distraught spouse who's desperate to get her marriage on track...

I know! Let's get loaded and go to a hookup joint!


----------



## MattMatt

marduk said:


> Seems like a good place to be for a distraught spouse who's desperate to get her marriage on track...
> 
> I know! Let's get loaded and go to a hookup joint!


But that's what friends do! 

It's what a couple of my mates did when it turned out my then girlfriend was more Lesbian than bi and who dumped me for a woman.


----------



## camerashy

Not that the setting is relevant....

But it wasn't a "club" club. It's not like there was loud dance music with people dancing in foam and women riding a mechanic bull.

1 - I don't like any of those things
2 - I'm not even, and never would be, friends with those sorts of people

I don't dance either, so let's be clear on that. 

It was a pretty quiet place. There was music, of course, but it was like... (I don't even go out at night time so I don't even know what to call it)... a bar/club. One-half of the space was a dance floor and the other half had rustic, hand-made wooden tables and chairs. 

I call anything with more than 10 people in it a "club."

And I didn't want to go out at all, but just as @MattMatt said, friends like dragging their friends out places when they are sad.


----------



## TeddieG

marduk said:


> And it's been my experience that when the relationship is in crisis, how both parties soothe themselves through that is pretty telling.
> 
> And you can dance to jazz? I mean, *I can barely listen to it*.


QFT!


----------



## camerashy

For future reference...could someone please PLEASE tell me what QFT means?


----------



## Marduk

MattMatt said:


> But that's what friends do!
> 
> It's what a couple of my mates did when it turned out my then girlfriend was more Lesbian than bi and who dumped me for a woman.


Meaning, they said no to a 3-way?


----------



## Marduk

camerashy said:


> Not that the setting is relevant....
> 
> But it wasn't a "club" club. It's not like there was loud dance music with people dancing in foam and women riding a mechanic bull.
> 
> 1 - I don't like any of those things
> 2 - I'm not even, and never would be, friends with those sorts of people
> 
> I don't dance either, so let's be clear on that.
> 
> It was a pretty quiet place. There was music, of course, but it was like... (I don't even go out at night time so I don't even know what to call it)... a bar/club. One-half of the space was a dance floor and the other half had rustic, hand-made wooden tables and chairs.
> 
> I call anything with more than 10 people in it a "club."
> 
> And I didn't want to go out at all, but just as @MattMatt said, friends like dragging their friends out places when they are sad.


OK.

So help me understand why you went.

Then help me understand why you were drinking and talking to a man.

Then help me understand why you started kissing him.

Then help me understand that you immediately stopped kissing him, ran to your husband, and confessed all of it.

And help me understand all of that in context of... You'd never do that with your husband.


----------



## camerashy

TeddieG said:


> Got it! So if she hadn't confessed, why did she leave? You have a point, @MattMatt!!


 @TeddieG It wasn't my choice to leave. I didn't want to. My H was very adamant that he needed space to sort his head out. I don't want anybody reading this thread to think that I just willingly walked away. He decided that we needed a break - I freaked out, and then when he said he absolutely needed that time, we decided that I should be the one who left because I had a few weeks without any jobs booked.


----------



## camerashy

marduk said:


> OK.
> 
> So help me understand why you went.
> 
> Then help me understand why you were drinking and talking to a man.
> 
> Then help me understand why you started kissing him.
> 
> Then help me understand that you immediately stopped kissing him, ran to your husband, and confessed all of it.
> 
> And help me understand all of that in context of... You'd never do that with your husband.


 @marduk I honestly can't answer all of those questions. I've played it over thousands of times in my head and I still can't tell you why I did it. He was kind and he listened to me, yes, but why I actually crossed those boundaries when I knew I shouldn't, I don't know. I'm sure that makes me a terrible person, but I don't know exactly what clicked inside my head at that moment.


----------



## camerashy

@marduk And I did stop it straight away...I know cheaters don't exactly rank as the most trustworthy, or honest, of people...and my husband sure doesn't believe me. But it felt very, very wrong and I stopped it.


----------



## MrsAldi

@camerashy so what's going to happen?
Surely you can move back into your home & sleep in spare room.
Or has your husband blocked you from coming back?

Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


----------



## camerashy

MrsAldi said:


> @camerashy so what's going to happen?
> Surely you can move back into your home & sleep in spare room.
> Or has your husband blocked you from coming back?
> 
> Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


 @MrsAldi I told him today that I was coming home and that we needed to talk and he told me he wasn't ready and that if we are face to face I will just cloud his judgement. I told him I really need to see him and that I will give him any space he needs, but I need to come home, I'll sleep in the spare room if necessary. He said "of course, you would say that." He ended the conversation, and hasn't replied to my messages since.

Yesterday he asked me to come home and he implied that I basically had to screw him and leave again. He says he doesn't know what he wants to do yet. Or if he can forgive.


----------



## MattMatt

marduk said:


> Meaning, they said no to a 3-way?


What happened was a former female lover of hers came back to town and she decided to dump me in favour of having her lover live with her and her three children.

She was my first LTR partner, we'd been dating for three years and I hadn't realised she was bisexual. Well, it had never come up in conversation.

That was 35 years ago. And whenever I think about her (not often, these days) I realise that I still have loving feelings for her. Which is pretty f**ked Up, really.

I didn't date for several years until a married couple set me up with a friend of theirs. Who was utterly barking mad, but not in a bad way.


----------



## MrsAldi

@camerashy so he wants you to come to the house, have sex & you leave again?


Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


----------



## camerashy

MrsAldi said:


> @camerashy so he wants you to come to the house, have sex & you leave again?
> 
> 
> Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


 @MrsAldi I am trying to be careful how I word things because I feel guilty for speaking badly about him in the thread, but his words were (basically) that if I can have sex with someone else, I can go home and have sex with my husband. But he said he's not ready for me to move home yet.

He used different words obviously, but it's basically what he said.


----------



## camerashy

I want to go home, and I know this is really selfish of me to say, but there are a few things that I wouldn't be able to get over...and my husband treating me like a cheap ***** is one of those things.


----------



## MrsAldi

@camerashy jeezus he's crude, your husband. 
You don't have to have sex with him just because he demands it. 
But you want to repair your marriage, now he's using the kiss against you instead of trying to understand why you did it. 
He will accept no blame in this & will except you to do everything he wants. 
What do you think?

Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


----------



## MattMatt

camerashy said:


> @MrsAldi I told him today that I was coming home and that we needed to talk and he told me he wasn't ready and that if we are face to face I will just cloud his judgement. I told him I really need to see him and that I will give him any space he needs, but I need to come home, I'll sleep in the spare room if necessary. He said "of course, you would say that." He ended the conversation, and hasn't replied to my messages since.
> 
> Yesterday he asked me to come home and he implied that I basically had to screw him and leave again. He says he doesn't know what he wants to do yet. Or if he can forgive.


This is sounding weird. He wants you to come, give him sex, then **** off again?

Thank God the age of chivalry is not yet over!


----------



## TeddieG

@camerashy, QTF is an abbreviation for Quoted for Truth! I hear you using language I recognize is British. Are you in the UK?


----------



## Marduk

camerashy said:


> @marduk I honestly can't answer all of those questions. I've played it over thousands of times in my head and I still can't tell you why I did it. He was kind and he listened to me, yes, but why I actually crossed those boundaries when I knew I shouldn't, I don't know. I'm sure that makes me a terrible person, but I don't know exactly what clicked inside my head at that moment.


I think that the reason you can't answer that and the reason you don't know why your husband needed a break is the same reason.


----------



## camerashy

@MrsAldi @MattMatt as a few posters have already mentioned, he is angry and that's normal. I have to accept that. He's saying a lot of really hurtful things lately, but saying and doing are different things. I don't think I could willingly have sex with anybody who treated me like I was a piece of trash. I've been there before and I've never felt so...unhuman in all my life. He can say nasty things to me, but if he did that... I just don't know how I could recover from that. 

I personally think that being home would make him stop thinking I was out screwing people all the time, and would probably help to restore some trust, but he doesn't even know if that is possible at the moment. He doesn't even know if he wants to try and repair things. I know full well though, that if he allows me to go home, and if he wants to try and work things out, it's going to come with a list of conditions an arm long, but he doesn't want me to stay there until he has decided that our marriage is worth saving.


----------



## camerashy

marduk said:


> I think that the reason you can't answer that and the reason you don't know why your husband needed a break is the same reason.


 @marduk and what reason is that?


----------



## Marduk

camerashy said:


> @marduk and what reason is that?


I don't think you're paying attention to anything. 

Not what your husband does, not what your toxic friends are doing, not what some player does at the bar, and certainly not your own behaviour.


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## MrsAldi

@camerashy why can't you move back in without his permission?
I mean the house is half yours, it's your home too, correct?
I understand he's angry, feels betrayed etc but he cannot leave you homeless if he wants to work on the marriage. 



Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## camerashy

MrsAldi said:


> @camerashy why can't you move back in without his permission?
> I mean the house is half yours, it's your home too, correct?
> I understand he's angry, feels betrayed etc but he cannot leave you homeless if he wants to work on the marriage.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


 @MrsAldi I'm a coward basically. I don't deal with angry people very well. For the past few months, I've had a lot more questions running around my mind than answers. 

It's not that I am scared that he will hurt me, please please don't think that, he wouldn't. But it's like... I've got whiplash or something. Before the work incident, yes we had our ups and downs, and we fought sometimes...as all couples do. But after the work incident, we couldn't even have a normal conversation without it ending in an argument. When he asked me to leave, it was so...out of the blue and unexpected.. and I've had issues in the past (I was in an abusive relationship) and although I've had a lot of help for the residual effects of that... when something uncharacteristic happens in our relationship (like all the fighting and carry on), I can't help my reactions. Big changes = triggers. And it's easier to separate myself from that than it is to confront that.


----------



## camerashy

@MrsAldi and in any case, it was his home before it was ours, so even if...and it makes me sick even saying it...even if he doesn't want to work things out...I would be the one leaving anyway


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## MrsAldi

@camerashy so after the work situation, was there something in his behaviour that was a trigger for you? 
You saw something about him, that gave you that gut feeling, that flight mode reaction? 

Maybe going back to live with him, isn't such a great idea, right now?

Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## camerashy

MrsAldi said:


> @camerashy so after the work situation, was there something in his behaviour that was a trigger for you?
> You saw something about him, that gave you that gut feeling, that flight mode reaction?
> 
> Maybe going back to live with him, isn't such a great idea, right now?
> 
> Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


 @MrsAldi He didn't do anything differently, that I can think of, but I would try to reassure him that everything would be fine and he'd tell me what do you know? etc etc. It was just argument after argument. It was like walking on eggshells. And then the next minute he would just act like the arguments had never happened, or say "we sorted/talked about this, remember" when we clearly hadn't. I would rack my brain for ages about when these so-called conversations and resolutions had occurred.


----------



## MrsAldi

@camerashy every married couple has arguments, for him to ask you to leave the home is really inexplicable & I'm having trouble understanding his reasoning for it. 

This work thing must have been really bad for him to behave this way before the kissing incident. 

What were the disagreements about? Trying to understand what's going on with him, why he felt the need for a break in the marriage.





Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## camerashy

MrsAldi said:


> @camerashy every married couple has arguments, for him to ask you to leave the home is really inexplicable & I'm having trouble understanding his reasoning for it.
> 
> This work thing must have been really bad for him to behave this way before the kissing incident.
> 
> What were the disagreements about? Trying to understand what's going on with him, why he felt the need for a break in the marriage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


 @MrsAldi The arguments where I would try and talk to him about work were the worst ones. I could see that it was on his mind, so I would try to get him to open up and he would just get really argumentative. I never once believed the allegations about him were true, but if I tried to talk to him about anything to do with it, he would get angry or tell me that I believed the the allegations. He also said, that because of my job, I wasn't there for him when he needed me. And then other times, he would be very nice, or take me out to dinner and then in the middle of whatever we were doing we'd end up in another argument.


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## Mommywhatohnothing

Is it possible he pushed you away because he's afraid of you finding out the truth about the work incident? Like maybe it's so bad he's afraid you would have left him over it so he's (in his mind) being proactive by leaving you first?

I'm only asking because I've been wondering for a while if this isn't what's behind what is currently going on in my own marriage. My husband moved out after his work crisis rather than throwing me out but our situations seem rather similar to me.


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## MrsAldi

@camerashy he could have had a nervous breakdown due to the stress of the work situation. 

Trying to get him to talk probably exacerbated his mind even worse, leading to his outbursts, your questions may have made him paranoid & leading him to believe you didn't support him. 

So he asked for a break to clear his mind, then the kiss happens & he feels that now you've really REALLY betrayed him in his mind. 

So it's going to take a lot for him to get over things. 
This means (in his mind) you have to be willing to do whatever he wants now in order for him to forgive you. 



Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## Bibi1031

Quite frankly this sitting around and do nothing except wait around on caveman to become civilized and not angry and anti social is too old for this day and age. 

You live in these new age times. Going out with friends and making out with a guy is what even my generation would do after a break up. You didn't cry and river and mope around for weeks until macho man decided it was ok to pick you back up after sending you off packing to fend for yourself! 

Vows or no vows, a wife is not someone you kick to the curb because life throws you a curb ball at work. Life is hard, grow a freakin pair if life's problems emasculated you! Don't trash your marriage and drop your wife with yesterday's garbage.

Remember that someone's trash is someone's else's treasure. 

Your husband isa moron of humongous proportions! Why are you sitting around waiting on moron? He is not a man, he is a baby that throws ridiculous temper tantrums. 


It's his home and therefore you are pretty much homeless and at his mercy. Wake up and never allow a man to take your safe place away. Whether this relationship works out or not, never allow Neanderthal to kick you out of your home! You have given this sick jerk too much power over your life! 

Who allows this in this day and age?


----------



## camerashy

Mommywhatohnothing said:


> Is it possible he pushed you away because he's afraid of you finding out the truth about the work incident? Like maybe it's so bad he's afraid you would have left him over it so he's (in his mind) being proactive by leaving you first?
> 
> I'm only asking because I've been wondering for a while if this isn't what's behind what is currently going on in my own marriage. My husband moved out after his work crisis rather than throwing me out but our situations seem rather similar to me.


 @Mommywhatohnothing I read your post and there are quite a few similarities, particularly in regards to the work incidents. I really don't want to speculate, I don't think my H would have done what he was accused of, and the technicians checked both my H, the other accused man's and the woman's work email accounts as well as the internet history on the computers at work and found nothing that validated the claims that she made. And then the woman promptly withdrew her allegations and quit. As to keeping me at arms length throughout the process and being unwilling to communicate about it, I think he was probably just stressed out, as @MrsAldi says. 

On your situation though, with the details that you provided, I would be really concerned about your H not wanting to live in the same area as you. It has my spidey senses tingling, that one. I couldn't live 3 hours away from my H and feel that it was a loving, committed marriage. Be careful about meddling family members, they may have your best interests at heart, but sometimes they think they know more than they actually do.


----------



## Blondilocks

If you want someone to listen to you, talk to yourself. You'll discover that your opinion is valid or it's so stupid that it embarrasses you.
You don't need anyone to validate your opinions except yourself. Don't look outward for validation - it's inside of you.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

I read through the thread twice, but I may have missed it with the weird logic and reasons being thrown around when people take sides. I mean it is strange how angry people are and now your husband is a lying cheating a-hole who is projecting his own infidelity onto you. Yet, some of these same posters are the first to tell people to calm down and ask a million seemingly useless questions which, end up being HIGHLY important later. Then we many times see the spouse, it seems to be gender disparate, ignored all of the clues, hints, sh1t test and other poor communications until the person finally hits a breaking point. 

I am not excusing his behavior if this is so, but it may get to the bottom of why he is so angry. Also, I'm curious about what type of friends he has and if they are friends of the marriage. Oh and logically speaking, people get blindsided a ton and it isn't always infidelity. We want it to be because then we do not have to fully look at our own actions.

As you keep posting, we get more and more tidbits.

So, I take it you travel a ton for work?
How often do you reject his PDAs?
How was your marriage before he asked to sort this out?
When the investigation started how much did he tell you?


----------



## MattMatt

@phillybeffandswiss I do not think he is cheating, but I could be wrong.

But I do think he is some kind of an idiot who is wrecking his marriage for reasons we can only wonder at.


----------



## Bibi1031

Blondilocks said:


> If you want someone to listen to you, talk to yourself. You'll discover that your opinion is valid or it's so stupid that it embarrasses you.
> You don't need anyone to validate your opinions except yourself. Don't look outward for validation - it's inside of you.


 :iagree:


----------



## Rubix Cubed

camerashy said:


> @marduk I honestly can't answer all of those questions. I've played it over thousands of times in my head and *I still can't tell you why I did it.* He was kind and he listened to me, yes, but why I actually crossed those boundaries when I knew I shouldn't, I don't know. I'm sure that makes me a terrible person, but I don't know exactly what clicked inside my head at that moment.


 As @marduk said it may be your lack of attention to any of the important parts of this, but my guess is You did it because you wanted to do it. Pretty simple, and I think you are having a hard time admitting that to yourself or anyone else, especially your husband.


----------



## Maxo

Bibi1031 said:


> Well to state the obvious, I stand by my observation that he does have a personality disorder based on what she posted and his reactions at work, with her, and his obvious lack of self control when dealing with his anger.
> 
> And absolutely NOT, his anger and verbal abuse towards her is not even close to normal.


This is absurd. You have so little information re this man , and what you do have comes from an admitted cheater dealing with cognitive dissonance.


----------



## Maxo

camerashy said:


> @Maxo I don't think he has a personality disorder at all. I think he is a typical Aries man - fiery and passionate, with a short fuse. He's also very generous to the people he cares deeply about, and he cares very deeply about a lot of people. He has a very big heart.
> 
> Perhaps it is just because I have not been in this situation before and I don't know how men normally react. It's probably also because I have been in positions before that taught me that when a man gets angry, to tread carefully. It is not that I am scared of my H, I'm not, but I feel like he sometimes forgets what I have been through in my past. And how name calling, and anger, affects me. I already feel 3 apples tall... I can't get a whole lot smaller.


Good. Discard that idiotic,misandric advise from whoever tells you this crap about your husband. It spells certain death for your marriage if you accept this irresponsible,misandric advice.
I appreciate your remorse and how you accept you role. You may be one of the ones who can reconcile.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

MattMatt said:


> @phillybeffandswiss I do not think he is cheating, but I could be wrong.
> 
> But I do think he is some kind of an idiot who is wrecking his marriage for reasons we can only wonder at.


Cool, a few of your posts suggest something entirely different. Especially, one in particular.


----------



## Maxo

Bibi1031 said:


> I honestly can't blame you for not believing this. It's very probable that I am correct though. It took me until just a couple of months ago to realize that I had married an abuser too. I know a thing or two about this subject as I am a counselor in real life. I work in an elementary school and part time in a woman's shelter as well. I deal mostly with children though. But abusers have very similar characteristics in common regardless of what label we choose to attach on them. I couldn't even see it when I was living it! My 2nd X would make me feel so guilty and completely confused that it took me years to see through his crap.
> 
> Yes indeed, I had knowledge and yet I drank his Koolaid for a very long time...sigh


I was married to a NPD, IMO. I would venture I know as much about abusers and Cluster B as you,and you have insufficient data and it is tainted.


----------



## Maxo

ABHale said:


> Cam when you go home he might blow off a lot of steam. If he gets physical LEAVE and put his a$$ in jail. With all that is gone on he has no right to hurt you like that.
> 
> The above might happen, I don't think it will just watch yourself.
> 
> I think your have the plan to go forward in this.
> 
> Good luck Cam.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No info that this man has ever been physically abusive.


----------



## Bibi1031

Maxo said:


> This is absurd. You have so little information re this man , and what you do have comes from an admitted cheater dealing with cognitive dissonance.


Well, you aren't much different. You have so little information regarding this woman that you have automatically dismissed her credibility because she was honest about her transgression. 

That to me is absurd!


----------



## Bibi1031

Maxo said:


> I would venture I know as much about abusers and Cluster B as you.


:lol:


----------



## Maxo

marduk said:


> OK.
> 
> So help me understand why you went.
> 
> Then help me understand why you were drinking and talking to a man.
> 
> Then help me understand why you started kissing him.
> 
> Then help me understand that you immediately stopped kissing him, ran to your husband, and confessed all of it.
> 
> And help me understand all of that in context of... You'd never do that with your husband.


She has stated that things went further than klssing.


----------



## Dyokemm

Maxo said:


> She has stated that things went further than klssing.


I must have missed that.

Or do you mean the little bit of touching above the waist she mentioned in her OP.

Did she say something more than this happened?...if so I missed it but it would make this situation very different IMO if she has been hiding the true extent of what went down from her BH.


----------



## adriana

Bibi1031 said:


> Quite frankly this sitting around and do nothing except wait around on caveman to become civilized and not angry and anti social is too old for this day and age.
> 
> You live in these new age times. Going out with friends and making out with a guy is what even my generation would do after a break up. You didn't cry and river and mope around for weeks until macho man decided it was ok to pick you back up after sending you off packing to fend for yourself!
> 
> Vows or no vows, a wife is not someone you kick to the curb because life throws you a curb ball at work. Life is hard, grow a freakin pair if life's problems emasculated you! Don't trash your marriage and drop your wife with yesterday's garbage.
> 
> Remember that someone's trash is someone's else's treasure.
> 
> Your husband isa moron of humongous proportions! Why are you sitting around waiting on moron? He is not a man, he is a baby that throws ridiculous temper tantrums.
> 
> 
> It's his home and therefore you are pretty much homeless and at his mercy. Wake up and never allow a man to take your safe place away. Whether this relationship works out or not, never allow Neanderthal to kick you out of your home! You have given this sick jerk too much power over your life!
> 
> Who allows this in this day and age?


----------



## Maxo

Dyokemm said:


> I must have missed that.
> 
> Or do you mean the little bit of touching above the waist she mentioned in her OP.
> 
> Did she say something more than this happened?...if so I missed it but it would make this situation very different IMO if she has been hiding the true extent of what went down from her BH.


Yes,I was referring to the touching above the waist. I presume she was not referring to her clavicle or sternum.


----------



## Dyokemm

Maxo said:


> Yes,I was referring to the touching above the waist. I presume she was not referring to her clavicle or sternum.


Thanks for clarifying that....I thought I missed something.


----------



## MattMatt

Dyokemm said:


> Thanks for clarifying that....I thought I missed something.


So he groped her and kissed her.

Yeah! Clear case of whatever someone is trying to prove!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Maxo

MattMatt said:


> So he groped her and kissed her.
> 
> Yeah! Clear case of whatever someone is trying to prove!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Eh, no. She kissed him as well, and they groped.
I have no idea what the remainder of your comment means, as there is nothing to prove. She admits this.
You seem to feel that if someone asks for a break to think about things, all bets are of re the marriage vows. did you vows contain such a qualification? I know mine did not.
And, as another poster pointed out to you, but you ignored, you have flip flopped on your assertion that he probably cheated. You are all over the place, trying to white knight this .


----------



## Marduk

Maxo said:


> She has stated that things went further than klssing.


Yup. How exactly far did it go, OP?

Be honest.


----------



## Marduk

Rubix Cubed said:


> As @marduk said it may be your lack of attention to any of the important parts of this, but my guess is You did it because you wanted to do it. Pretty simple, and I think you are having a hard time admitting that to yourself or anyone else, especially your husband.


My guess is that this isn't the first time, or at least the first time she's flirted with the idea.

And that's probably tied in with this whole break scenario.

Am I wrong, OP?


----------



## jnj express

You need to settle your living situation, you are entitled to live in the marital home, whether he likes it or not, if he continues to demand you leave, maybe D needs to go on the table, he is irrational in that he would have you come home have sex and then leave again-----as to the truth of what you are telling him, offer to take a lie detector test, to prove what you are saying is the truth


----------



## MattMatt

I think it is possible that he has found being marriehad cramped his style. 

Not that he wants to cheat. 

He might hanker after his free days as a bachelor?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Maxo

jnj express said:


> You need to settle your living situation, you are entitled to live in the marital home, whether he likes it or not, if he continues to demand you leave, maybe D needs to go on the table, he is irrational in that he would have you come home have sex and then leave again-----as to the truth of what you are telling him, offer to take a lie detector test, to prove what you are saying is the truth


I agree. Offer to take a lie detector and find a really reputable expert.
But, as others have mentioned, I still do not understand how on earth you felt it was oaky to start making out and groping etc. just because you had a fight and were asked to leave your house. I think his asking you to leave etc. was nuts, but if this happened to me, I could not imagine going to a club and making out with a complete stranger ( or anyone for that matter).
Some folks, largely misandrists or white knight manginas,IMO, are focusing on the " break" as either justification for the cheating, or as some type of contractual loophole that allows forays into messing with others, as if the contract re fidelity was no longer in place. 
That is utter nonsense and, fortunately, you have not bought into it.
Same with the absurd, long distance diagnosis of a personality disorder which is based on such limited information and one side of a story only that it is ludicrous.
The posts that suggest this drip with man hating, no doubt the result of the lethal combo of third wave feminism and having been hurt by men previously.
Some alleged "counselor" with a specialty in children ( I shudder, but that is a digression), obviously has it in for your husband and, I suspect, most men in general. Ignore that garbage.
Think about it. She has never even met your husband and she has only focused on your limited description of him after he was in the throes of being investigated at work and in the aftermath of finding out his wife was making out with a guy. Your other descriptions of him have been ignored and there is serious cherry picking going on by a person with an axe to grind with men.
She does not even seem to understand "fundamental attribution error".
I think it is appropriate that her one woman cheering squad selected Travis Bickel to applaud her.


----------



## naiveonedave

MattMatt said:


> I think it is possible that he has found being marriehad cramped his style.
> 
> Not that he wants to cheat.
> 
> He might hanker after his free days as a bachelor?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


based on stuff gleaned only from the OP, I think her H feels this:
* no support from OP
* low sex life, based on comments about giving it to strangers but none at home
* He concluded she was in an affair or had given him the ILYBNILWY speech (speculation on my part, but what she has said his words are, seems to fit).

Based on this, he kicked her out, to think. Bad move on his part, but I think he got what he thought he had, a cheating W.

I don't think he is in an affair or wants to be alone. He wants a supportive W who has sex with him, He apparently wasn't getting either of those needs and reacted childishly. BUT he is validated in his approach, because the OP showed her true stripes.


----------



## donny64

Some things to like about this post, others not so much....



Bibi1031 said:


> Quite frankly this sitting around and do nothing except wait around on caveman to become civilized and not angry and anti social is too old for this day and age.
> 
> You live in these new age times. Going out with friends and making out with a guy is what even my generation would do after a break up. You didn't cry and river and mope around for weeks until macho man decided it was ok to pick you back up after sending you off packing to fend for yourself!
> 
> Like that, except for the fact that being kicked out of the marital home after a week is no reason to cheat. Yes, he's being a major azz. But this incident (being kicked out of the house) is clearly not a deal breaker for her, as she seems to want to reconcile that. So, in that case, in my eyes, that makes this a case of clear cut cheating. And inexcusable.
> 
> Yup, he's clearly an azz, and even if it is a home he owns separately from the marital assets, and assuming SHE did not do something before the cheating that was a deal breaker for him, most men (correct that...a decent man) would have left and grabbed a hotel or a friend's couch for a while.
> 
> I have a feeling this is not the first time he has held it over her head about this being "MY house". And that isn't cool.
> 
> However, "temporary insanity" on his part over the course of the last couple months (or however long) does not excuse cheating, ESPECIALLY since she clearly wants to work things out.
> 
> Vows or no vows, a wife is not someone you kick to the curb because life throws you a curb ball at work.  Life is hard, grow a freakin pair if life's problems emasculated you! Don't trash your marriage and drop your wife with yesterday's garbage.
> 
> Remember that someone's trash is someone's else's treasure.
> 
> Couldn't agree with that more. Be a man, grow a pair, and deal with things in a rational way. And should you not, and your woman leaves you, don't be all shocked when someone else picks up the ball and runs with it.
> 
> Your husband isa moron of humongous proportions! Why are you sitting around waiting on moron? He is not a man, he is a baby that throws ridiculous temper tantrums.
> 
> Agree except that this is a fairly new development it appears (him being a total azz), and maybe she should have been focusing on working through that with him, getting into couples counseling, getting to the bottom of it, etc., instead of swapping spit and getting felt up at some bar by some loser. The whole "another man's trash is another man's treasure thing goes here as well. She effectively tossed her husband aside by screwing around on him, but now wants to work on things? Should have thought of that before she let another guy lip maul her.
> 
> It's his home and therefore you are pretty much homeless and at his mercy. Wake up and never allow a man to take your safe place away. Whether this relationship works out or not, never allow Neanderthal to kick you out of your home! You have given this sick jerk too much power over your life!
> 
> Who allows this in this day and age?
> 
> Like this, as I like independent women who are or can be self sufficient and self sustaining. I don't want any woman hanging around because they "have to" and have no other options. And I've made significant effort to give my W her independence and security (by helping her through advice and months and countless hours of physical labor, construction knowledge, and personal sacrifice) to renovate and help her keep her previous marital home after her ex left it for the bank to take years after divorce.
> 
> Were I the OP, if her H holds the fact he can kick her out of "his house" at any time over her head, that would be a deal breaker, and he'd be served papers. It is controlling, childish, and insecure behavior, and certainly not loving behavior.
> 
> And I hate to break it to the OP's husband, but unless there is some form of pre-nup, or it is different in their state, it may not matter whose name is on the title to the home, if they have lived there as husband and wife all these years, and she has contributed to the home in some financial way, there is a real possibility she could have some form of a claim on the home for the years she contributed, even if he owned it prior to and separately from the marriage. At least that's how it works in my state (and I checked, as I, and the W, both own our own separate homes still, that we don't live in).


But, most glaringly what I see from OP, is that she cheated, and rather than seeming to want to work through her own issues that caused this, wanting to dismiss it as nothing, and seek advice on how to work on the issues in the marriage, she just wants to complain about what he's done to cause this, list his faults, and try to excuse her own behavior. 

Maybe there's a lot more here she is not saying as to why she was kicked out of the marital home. 

He may have tossed a few grenades her way with his childish, controlling, self centered behavior, but she dropped a nuke right in the middle of the marriage camp when she ran out at the first sign of major trouble and betrayed her husband and marriage by making out with and getting felt up on by another man.


----------



## WonkyNinja

camerashy said:


> @MrsAldi A woman about my age from my H workplace, accused my H and another man of sending her inappropriate emails. There was an internal investigation done after the woman failed to produce any evidence, and the computer technicians didn't find anything either. She admitted that she had lied about the emails and quit not long after. My H is a very proud man and a very hard worker. He was very upset that his word was not taken at face value, and that an investigation had to be done. I told him that any accusation of that nature has to be taken seriously (and rightly so) and that it would all blow over. And it did.


Why would that even phase him? 

If someone accuses you of sending inappropriate emails you simply tell them to show the emails to HR. The sender can't delete them so if they've been sent they will exist. The recipient can't create them in your Sent mail folder.

Once they fail to back up their claim you file a grievance with HR and poof accuser is gone.

That isn't any reason to get stroppy with your wife.


----------



## naiveonedave

WonkyNinja said:


> That isn't any reason to get stroppy with your wife.


Exactly, so why is he acting this way now? We don't know much, except that he feels unsupported and he apparently is not happy with their sex life. Could be just that or any of a myriad of possibilities.


----------



## Marduk

donny64 said:


> Some things to like about this post, others not so much....
> 
> 
> 
> But, most glaringly what I see from OP, is that she cheated, and rather than seeming to want to work through her own issues that caused this, wanting to dismiss it as nothing, and seek advice on how to work on the issues in the marriage, she just wants to complain about what he's done to cause this, list his faults, and try to excuse her own behavior.
> 
> Maybe there's a lot more here she is not saying as to why she was kicked out of the marital home.
> 
> He may have tossed a few grenades her way with his childish, controlling, self centered behavior, but she dropped a nuke right in the middle of the marriage camp when she ran out at the first sign of major trouble and betrayed her husband and marriage by making out with and getting felt up on by another man.


It could very well have been a honeypot strategy. 

Akin to a husband say he's going out of town for the weekend, and then checking in on his wife secretly to see what she does with her free time. 

When you're interested in proof of what you suspect and want out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## drifting on

I guess at times I can be truly amazed at the posts here, even though I know that opinions differ. OP, I honestly am confused about what you want, your words are very confusing. You say you are remorseful, but clearly you are not. You may be regretful, but in ways I even question that. Pages 8 through 11, not remorseful, you may want to work on that. Your husband is clearly hurt by your own words, yet he calls you a name and suddenly he crossed a line into inappropriate. Three very good posters have given you sound advice, Marduk, NoChoice, and Losinghim, yet it seems you don't hear them. 

I hope you fully understand what you have done, it seems clear that you don't. I normally won't post this way but in all honesty who am I. Simply I'm a betrayed spouse, I understand your husband, I was treated terribly too. You can read this and just move on to the next post, maybe they will back you up, unlike me. You want to rug sweep but I know you remind your husband of his name calling of you. At times I read your posts, and I almost get the impression you are appalled that an apology won't be sufficient. 

You had two major discrepancies with your husband, both your choice completely, and both times chose wrong. I guess my question to you is why you want to stay married? You emasculated your husband by choice twice, how could you respect him now if he takes you back? You could only see a doormat if he were to take you back, could you not? You did things with your AP you didn't with your husband, now would you react? When my wife confessed I had numerous names I wanted to call her, I didn't, but it was very close. 

I suspect there is more to your story, more that even you can't admit to. You seem to have as much pride as your husband, and that pride is a marriage killer. If you were remorseful you would move mountains to help your husband heal, I doubt you would do that. At least not until your husband lets you back into the home and apologizes. That may sound sarcastic, but from your posts, I believe that to be true. You thought your husband was childish in dealing with the problem at work, you lost respect for him, you went out and cheated, and I bet you think he is being childish now. Ok, that was sarcastic, but it's the impression you give through your posts. Pride can be a good quality, so can honesty and humility.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Maxo

marduk said:


> It could very well have been a honeypot strategy.
> 
> Akin to a husband say he's going out of town for the weekend, and then checking in on his wife secretly to see what she does with her free time.
> 
> When you're interested in proof of what you suspect and want out.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Might have been a double reverse secret megaforce with a Russian akimbo submove, as well. Code word: megaforce. Passcode: The rooster crows at Midnight."


----------



## NoChoice

drifting on said:


> I guess at times I can be truly amazed at the posts here, even though I know that opinions differ. OP, I honestly am confused about what you want, your words are very confusing. You say you are remorseful, but clearly you are not. You may be regretful, but in ways I even question that. Pages 8 through 11, not remorseful, you may want to work on that. Your husband is clearly hurt by your own words, yet he calls you a name and suddenly he crossed a line into inappropriate. Three very good posters have given you sound advice, Marduk, NoChoice, and Losinghim, yet it seems you don't hear them.
> 
> I hope you fully understand what you have done, it seems clear that you don't. I normally won't post this way but in all honesty who am I. Simply I'm a betrayed spouse, I understand your husband, I was treated terribly too. You can read this and just move on to the next post, maybe they will back you up, unlike me. You want to rug sweep but I know you remind your husband of his name calling of you. At times I read your posts, and I almost get the impression you are appalled that an apology won't be sufficient.
> 
> You had two major discrepancies with your husband, both your choice completely, and both times chose wrong. I guess my question to you is why you want to stay married? You emasculated your husband by choice twice, how could you respect him now if he takes you back? You could only see a doormat if he were to take you back, could you not? You did things with your AP you didn't with your husband, now would you react? When my wife confessed I had numerous names I wanted to call her, I didn't, but it was very close.
> 
> I suspect there is more to your story, more that even you can't admit to. You seem to have as much pride as your husband, and that pride is a marriage killer. If you were remorseful you would move mountains to help your husband heal, I doubt you would do that. At least not until your husband lets you back into the home and apologizes. That may sound sarcastic, but from your posts, I believe that to be true. You thought your husband was childish in dealing with the problem at work, you lost respect for him, you went out and cheated, and I bet you think he is being childish now. Ok, that was sarcastic, but it's the impression you give through your posts. Pride can be a good quality, so can honesty and humility.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


OP,
The voice of experience and reason, you would be well advised to take heed if you wish to save your marriage.


----------



## Bibi1031

Well to clear the air a bit here. Which ever side anyone here takes, the consensus is that what camerashy did was wrong. I believe her because she is the one coming for help. Her husband is not here, so we just have her take. I stand by what I have posted. He is an angry, immature, sick fella. 
Do I need more information than that to give her advice, of course not. 

So that is what I am doing. That is what you are doing as well. 

For the record, caveman has left her out of the marital home going on almost a month now

I dunno about anyone else, but after 3 weeks of being thrown out, i can't say something stupid wouldn't happen, but would most certainly be expected.


----------



## Marduk

Maxo said:


> Might have been a double reverse secret megaforce with a Russian akimbo submove, as well. Code word: megaforce. Passcode: The rooster crows at Midnight."


Indeed.

The eagle flies on Friday.


----------



## Marduk

Bibi1031 said:


> Well to clear the air a bit here. Which ever side anyone here takes, the consensus is that what camerashy did was wrong. I believe her because she is the one coming for help. Her husband is not here, so we just have her take. I stand by what I have posted. He is an angry, immature, sick fella.
> Do I need more information than that to give her advice, of course not.
> 
> So that is what I am doing. That is what you are doing as well.
> 
> For the record, caveman has left her out of the marital home going on almost a month now
> 
> I dunno about anyone else, but after 3 weeks of being thrown out, i can't say something stupid wouldn't happen, but actually expected.


Any air clearing needs to include the fact that she has no idea why her husband wanted to go on a break, and no idea why she kissed and was groped by some rando in a club, either.

I'm not sure seeking an honest appraisal of events via this source is going to get anywhere when questions go unanswered with a shrug.


----------



## Bibi1031

marduk said:


> Any air clearing needs to include the fact that she has no idea why her husband wanted to go on a break, and no idea why she kissed and was groped by some rando in a club, either.
> 
> I'm not sure seeking an honest appraisal of events via this source is going to get anywhere when questions go unanswered with a shrug.


Well if ape$hit doesn't talk about it with her and managed to throw her out almost a month ago, do you think he will bother telling 
Her the truth about why he sent her packing when now her problem is compounded by her transgression?

Looks like all we have is speculation, which ain't good. 

By the way, She has answered why she slipped; but her response doesn't seem to satisfy a few here ( I'm not included in these few). We already know what cuckoo nuts husband thinks and that ain't no surprise for yours truly here


----------



## Maxo

Bibi1031 said:


> Well if ape$hit doesn't talk about it with her and managed to throw her out almost a month ago, do you think he will bother telling
> Her the truth about why he sent her packing when now her problem is compounded by her transgression?
> 
> Looks like all we have is speculation, which ain't good.
> 
> By the way, She has answered why she slipped; but her response doesn't seem to satisfy a few here ( I'm not included in these few). We already know what cuckoo nuts husband thinks and that ain't no surprise for yours truly here


Yep, no surprise, alright.

Something stupid might happen after 3 weeks, eh? More like something immoral and abusive.


----------



## Bibi1031

Maxo said:


> Something stupid might happen after 3 weeks, eh? More like something immoral and abusive.


By which party exactly?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

OP, please ignore the infighting, we do it all of the time. CWI has been hostile from both sides for awhile now, at least since I started lurking back in 2012. Be happy you weren't here for the Alpha/Beta Wars, but you are unfortunately here for the Gender Wars.

This is why I asked the questions earlier about your home life and what happened during the accusation. Also, as someone who has worked in HR and watched a few coworkers get blindsided, no it isn't always something there in a sexual harassment or infidelity aspect. Harassment accusations ranges from simple "I don't like you" to taking down a rival for an open position. I saw someone create a lie to keep a job and it worked. Two people were fired and I was hustled out of HR when I asked "what happened to the investigation" because it was none of my business. 

Anyway, sounds like you two have terrible communication. He told you he felt unsupported during his time of need, but what little you have shared leans me and sounds like N.Dave in the same direction. I can go get you posts, from people in this very thread, who tell others repeated ignorance of their spouse's needs is grounds for divorce or an affair. They will say "no it isn't right," then add "but, you can't expect things to stay the same when you aren't listening." Also, if you really want to get back together, don't start reading into his comments. As you can see, you said he implied sex and people have already taken it as law. Is that what he implied or was he still angry and meant something else? Don't feed into his anger with your own because you both will blow up the marriage. No, I am not suggesting you take his garbage, but tell him "I'm not talking to you when you treat me like this" and do not talk to him. He can be as angry as he wants, but he has no right too expect you to settle for insults or wait for him to make a decision.


----------



## Row Jimmy

Move back home ASAP and see if you can fix it and if not move on.

Offer the poly if you like. If he doesn't come around within a week or two where you can at least talk reasonably to each other then tell him you want to see a MC to help facilitate it and if he won't then you go see a Lawyer and file for divorce and do the 180. When your lawyer says its okay to move out of the marital home then you move out, but not before then unless you want to or need to for your own sanity or safety but any chance of fixing this will likely happen with you two together instead of apart. 

It sounds to me like your relationship was over before you foolishly kissed and groped bar dude. Now you have a a messed up husband who is raging and lashing out. This is going to make it hard if not impossible for him to ever trust you again and you do travel for work. You made a stupid move one night and stopped yourself before you made it worse but you've ruined your marriage #1 by doing it and #2 by telling him about it. You could have easily screwed the guy if that was your goal and many folks here think you likely did... but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt because it doesn't matter what people here think the truth is. It only matters what your husband thinks and he says you are GUILTY AS HELL. 

Some say the truth will set you free.... I disagree. 

Some things I didn't EVER need to know. Like some fool telling me there was no Santa when I was 5... like learning the hard way that love doesn't always last forever.... or that my wife kissed a stranger in a bar a few weeks after I foolishly sent her away. 

Good luck.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

NoChoice said:


> OP,
> The voice of experience and reason, you would be well advised to take heed if you wish to save your marriage.



I was cheated on and I was never abusive. If cheating is a choice with no matter how a relationship goes, then abuse is a choice no matter how relationships go.

There are examples of people that were not abusive when they were cheated on. It is just apologetics for lack of impulse control, the same as cheating.

There is fail logic here. Because he was hurt, he can do hurtful things only because it was cheating. She was kicked out, told she they were on a break for weeks, and well forbid she do something that makes her feel wanted.

When I was cheated on, I got angry and ended the relationship, but I did not resort to verbal abuse so the same would apply, no excuse. BS do not place on a pedestal. In fact, I feel more empathy for abused victims that cheat than the abusive BS. Some on here even called a cheater no better than an abusive alcoholic that abuse the spouse, children and pet. LosingHim's husband wanted someone he can manipulate emotionally and break down with low boundaries so he can walk all over her. He took advantage of what he help create and reinforce. Too bad someone else took advantage of someone that will break down and lose rational thinking because of pressure.


----------



## camerashy

marduk said:


> Yup. How exactly far did it go, OP?
> 
> Be honest.





marduk said:


> My guess is that this isn't the first time, or at least the first time she's flirted with the idea.
> 
> And that's probably tied in with this whole break scenario.
> 
> Am I wrong, OP?





naiveonedave said:


> based on stuff gleaned only from the OP, I think her H feels this:
> * no support from OP
> * low sex life, based on comments about giving it to strangers but none at home
> * He concluded she was in an affair or had given him the ILYBNILWY speech (speculation on my part, but what she has said his words are, seems to fit).
> 
> Based on this, he kicked her out, to think. Bad move on his part, but I think he got what he thought he had, a cheating W.
> 
> I don't think he is in an affair or wants to be alone. He wants a supportive W who has sex with him, He apparently wasn't getting either of those needs and reacted childishly. BUT he is validated in his approach, because the OP showed her true stripes.





donny64 said:


> Some things to like about this post, others not so much....
> 
> 
> 
> But, most glaringly what I see from OP, is that she cheated, and rather than seeming to want to work through her own issues that caused this, wanting to dismiss it as nothing, and seek advice on how to work on the issues in the marriage, she just wants to complain about what he's done to cause this, list his faults, and try to excuse her own behavior.
> =


 @marduk @naiveondave @Maxo @MattMatt @drifting on @donny64

This is kind of a combined answer to all of your posts.

I have been completely honest about what happened that night. I feel terrible about what happened and it makes me physically sick that I have done what I have done and that I have betrayed someone I love very much.

We have had a healthy sex life up until the point that I was asked to leave, and neither of us would have even suspected the other of having an EA. 

And I seriously must apologize for speaking about my H that way. I never meant to use this thread to complain about him or his faults, or to absolve myself of any responsibility. *If that is how my words are coming across, then I wish to stop this thread right here*. It's my fault my H and I are in this mess to begin with.

If my H's asking me to leave was a test of any kind, then I am really confused by that and I doubt there would be any way he would tell me that anyway. 

I arrived home this morning and my H was waiting for me. And after I got over the initial shock that he somehow knew I was coming home, we talked (kind of) and he's left me with a few things to think about and what it would take for him to consider trying to repair things. Some progress at least.


----------



## drifter777

camerashy said:


> @marduk @naiveondave @Maxo @MattMatt @drifting on @donny64
> 
> This is kind of a combined answer to all of your posts.
> 
> I have been completely honest about what happened that night. I feel terrible about what happened and it makes me physically sick that I have done what I have done and that I have betrayed someone I love very much.
> 
> We have had a healthy sex life up until the point that I was asked to leave, and neither of us would have even suspected the other of having an EA.
> 
> And I seriously must apologize for speaking about my H that way. I never meant to use this thread to complain about him or his faults, or to absolve myself of any responsibility. *If that is how my words are coming across, then I wish to stop this thread right here*. It's my fault my H and I are in this mess to begin with.
> 
> If my H's asking me to leave was a test of any kind, then I am really confused by that and I doubt there would be any way he would tell me that anyway.
> 
> I arrived home this morning and my H was waiting for me. And after I got over the initial shock that he somehow knew I was coming home, we talked (kind of) and he's left me with a few things to think about and what it would take for him to consider trying to repair things. Some progress at least.


He is going to forgive you and try to move forward. Don't do this again unless you want to divorce.


----------



## MattMatt

drifter777 said:


> He is going to forgive you and try to move forward. Don't do this again unless you want to divorce.


If so, that's splendid.

But what if he has *another* workplace problem down the line and he decides to take *that* out on Camerashy, too?


----------



## Bibi1031

I am glad you are being proactive and took the bull by the horns and went over there. 

He talked to you and things were discussed. That is good, a hell of a lot better than limbo. 

Will you be able to stay home in the spare bedroom?


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Btw, how cynical. Don't cheat on me again but when I get crossed with you, I will kick you out and leave you on the streets. Lets just look past my own shiet so I can be placed on a pedestal. You should also take my abuse and not have complaints while I call you every name in the book and demean you for the hurt you cause and only focus on me, me , me and how I feel. Lets MINIMIZE the fact that I hurt you and your feelings are less relevant than my own because I am a victim of being hurt. So I kicked you out, and disengage from the relationship while holding no obligations to you but want you to be beholden to myself. So what you are hurt, if you hurt me in return, I will hurt you back.


----------



## camerashy

Bibi1031 said:


> I am glad you are being proactive and took the bull by the horns and went over there.
> 
> He talked to you and things were discussed. That is good, a hell of a lot better than limbo.
> 
> Will you be able to stay home in the spare bedroom?


 @Bibi1031 @MattMatt

I'm not sure... he kind of said his piece and then left. He didn't take anything with him, so I presume he is coming home at some point. For now, I have taken up residence in the spare room.


----------



## Marduk

camerashy said:


> @marduk @naiveondave @Maxo @MattMatt @drifting on @donny64
> 
> This is kind of a combined answer to all of your posts.
> 
> I have been completely honest about what happened that night. I feel terrible about what happened and it makes me physically sick that I have done what I have done and that I have betrayed someone I love very much.
> 
> We have had a healthy sex life up until the point that I was asked to leave, and neither of us would have even suspected the other of having an EA.
> 
> And I seriously must apologize for speaking about my H that way. I never meant to use this thread to complain about him or his faults, or to absolve myself of any responsibility. *If that is how my words are coming across, then I wish to stop this thread right here*. It's my fault my H and I are in this mess to begin with.
> 
> If my H's asking me to leave was a test of any kind, then I am really confused by that and I doubt there would be any way he would tell me that anyway.
> 
> I arrived home this morning and my H was waiting for me. And after I got over the initial shock that he somehow knew I was coming home, we talked (kind of) and he's left me with a few things to think about and what it would take for him to consider trying to repair things. Some progress at least.


More vagaries and non-answers. 

I'm not sure how you want us to help you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Bibi1031

I'm glad you went home. Hopefully, he will talk more now that you came back. Don't leave unless you really want too. It's your home too. Please, don't leave again unless you are in danger.


----------



## camerashy

Row Jimmy said:


> Move back home ASAP and see if you can fix it and if not move on.
> 
> Offer the poly if you like. If he doesn't come around within a week or two where you can at least talk reasonably to each other then tell him you want to see a MC to help facilitate it and if he won't then you go see a Lawyer and file for divorce and do the 180. When your lawyer says its okay to move out of the marital home then you move out, but not before then unless you want to or need to for your own sanity or safety but any chance of fixing this will likely happen with you two together instead of apart.
> 
> It sounds to me like your relationship was over before you foolishly kissed and groped bar dude. Now you have a a messed up husband who is raging and lashing out. This is going to make it hard if not impossible for him to ever trust you again and you do travel for work. You made a stupid move one night and stopped yourself before you made it worse but you've ruined your marriage #1 by doing it and #2 by telling him about it. You could have easily screwed the guy if that was your goal and many folks here think you likely did... but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt because it doesn't matter what people here think the truth is. It only matters what your husband thinks and he says you are GUILTY AS HELL.
> 
> Some say the truth will set you free.... I disagree.
> 
> Some things I didn't EVER need to know. Like some fool telling me there was no Santa when I was 5... like learning the hard way that love doesn't always last forever.... or that my wife kissed a stranger in a bar a few weeks after I foolishly sent her away.
> 
> Good luck.


 @Row Jimmy There is no way I could have lived with myself if I hadn't have told him. I considered it for a second, but I had to put myself in H's shoes. There is just no way I would ever forgive him if he was to do something like that and then keep it secret. For me that puts the betrayal on a whole other level. Perhaps I'm foolish, but after thinking about what a lot of the other posters have said, I think that I naively felt that being honest somehow would make the situation easier.


----------



## MattMatt

Mr.Fisty said:


> Btw, how cynical. Don't cheat on me again but when I get crossed with you, I will kick you out and leave you on the streets. Lets just look past my own shiet so I can be placed on a pedestal. You should also take my abuse and not have complaints while I call you every name in the book and demean you for the hurt you cause and only focus on me, me , me and how I feel. Lets MINIMIZE the fact that I hurt you and your feelings are less relevant than my own because I am a victim of being hurt. So I kicked you out, and disengage from the relationship while holding no obligations to you but want you to be beholden to myself. So what you are hurt, if you hurt me in return, I will hurt you back.


:iagree:

And why throw your wife/husband out if they hadn't cheated?:scratchhead:


----------



## MrsAldi

@camerashy it's ok to vent about your husband here, just because you kissed OM man doesn't mean that you have to put him on a pedestal. 

What were the things/stipulations he gave for you to think about? 


Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


----------



## Marduk

@camerashy just answer the following please... Honestly and completely. "I don't know" is not an answer. "Because I was drunk" is not an answer.

#1 why did your husband throw you out?
#2 what happened in the days and weeks before he threw you out?
#3 after he threw you out, why did you want back into the marriage?
#4 if you wanted back into the marriage, why did you make out with the rando at the bar? Why did you go to begin with? Why did you let him grope you? Why would you do that with this guy and not your husband? Why did you end it at a grope? What happened then?
#5 you did the right thing by telling your husband, but what kind of response did you expect? Did you expect a "thanks for telling me, please come back?"
#6 what are these stipulations? 
#7 what are your friends like? What are they telling you? Are they friends of your marriage? Or are they telling you to get the hell out?
#8 have you ever considered individual counselling?


----------



## camerashy

MrsAldi said:


> @camerashy it's ok to vent about your husband here, just because you kissed OM man doesn't mean that you have to put him on a pedestal.
> 
> What were the things/stipulations he gave for you to think about?
> 
> 
> Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


 @MrsAldi I feel like I do have to do that.

First and foremost that he's prepared to give the marriage another shot for the next 6 months, provided that I agree to a few things.

1) No work that will take me out of town for more than a day (no overnight/weekend stuff)

2) The friend that I have been staying with for the past few weeks is not allowed in our home.

3) I am not to tell anyone from my own or his own family about what has happened (not that I would tell his family, but my own?)

4) Obviously, he wants access to my phone and I'm not to go out clubbing and things.

5) For the time being, all major decisions to be made about our home/marriage and so forth are his to make, because I am untrustworthy.

Those are the main ones.


----------



## MrsAldi

@camerashy they seem like fair & reasonable stipulations.

For the telling family part, maybe he doesn't want the hassle & interference they might cause. 

Is your friend you had been staying with friendly with your husband? 
Did you get along previously? 

BTW I haven't been clubbing in years, I regard it as a place for singles. 
Anyway clubs here are like dawn of the dead! 

Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


----------



## MattMatt

camerashy said:


> @MrsAldi I feel like I do have to do that.
> 
> First and foremost that he's prepared to give the marriage another shot for the next 6 months, provided that I agree to a few things.
> 
> 1) No work that will take me out of town for more than a day (no overnight/weekend stuff)
> 
> 2) The friend that I have been staying with for the past few weeks is not allowed in our home.
> *
> 3) I am not to tell anyone from my own or his own family about what has happened (not that I would tell his family, but my own?)*
> 
> 4) Obviously, he wants access to my phone and I'm not to go out clubbing and things.
> 
> 5) For the time being, all major decisions to be made about our home/marriage and so forth are his to make, because I am untrustworthy.
> 
> Those are the main ones.


Really? That's a bit odd.

I wonder what his motive is for that?


----------



## camerashy

marduk said:


> @camerashy just answer the following please... Honestly and completely. "I don't know" is not an answer. "Because I was drunk" is not an answer.
> 
> #1 why did your husband throw you out?
> #2 what happened in the days and weeks before he threw you out?
> #3 after he threw you out, why did you want back into the marriage?
> #4 if you wanted back into the marriage, why did you make out with the rando at the bar? Why did you go to begin with? Why did you let him grope you? Why would you do that with this guy and not your husband? Why did you end it at a grope? What happened then?
> #5 you did the right thing by telling your husband, but what kind of response did you expect? Did you expect a "thanks for telling me, please come back?"
> #6 what are these stipulations?
> #7 what are your friends like? What are they telling you? Are they friends of your marriage? Or are they telling you to get the hell out?
> #8 have you ever considered individual counselling?


 @marduk 

#1 Because of all the arguing. He says because we were arguing all the time and he felt that I was unsupportive/questioning him over the issues he had at work. A big part of it, for him, *I personally think*, was that I went away for a week (work related) during this time. I asked him at the time if he would rather I stayed and he had told me to go, because it was a job that had been in the books for the while. But I think despite this, he felt that I was running away from the issues. I asked him to leave his job and work somewhere else.

#2 We argued a lot. It progressively got worse. It was like walking on eggshells for me, so it was probably the same for him. I couldn't handle all the arguing we were doing, and I know I walked out of the room a couple times.

#3 I didn't think we should have been apart at all. I was scared. I felt like..it was like "omg, we might not recover from this." And it was confusing as well, because I didn't feel like anything we were arguing about was worthy of ending a marriage over. I don't think having a rough couple of months constitutes that. 

#4 I didn't want to go to the bar at all. I looked and felt like **** (I have been constantly tired since this whole break started). I remember that he told me he would call me and he didn't. So I just went with her to the bar and started drinking. My friend was talking to a few people, but mostly guys. And I wasn't paying a whole lot of attention to be honest, until the one guy. I didn't like him at first... I don't know why. But my friend kept talking to this guy and the people he was with and eventually the group dwindled down to just the 3 of us. And we were talking about my M problems and I guess he was just saying all the things I wanted to hear. I felt better than I had in a long time. So when he made a pass at me, I went with it. We kissed and it was strange, I wasn't all that into it. And then I remember putting his hand on my boob and giving it a little squeeze. I was just so something characteristically "my H" and it was like "whoa, hold up, what are you doing you stupid woman" and I pulled away. He pushed again and I was just like "you know, this isn't right. You stay over there and I'll stay over here." And I said I needed another drink and I dragged my friend to the bar and asked her if we could leave. And we asked the barman to call us a taxi. I cried myself to sleep and called my H first thing in the morning.

#5 Honestly... I felt so bad...I had to tell him. I thought if the situation were reversed I would want to know and somehow thought that by telling him straight away, that it could minimize some of the damage it would cause. My friend was telling me not to, it was just one tiny kiss etc, but I just knew I had to.

#7 The same as ^^

#8 I've done IC on and off since I was 20 years old. Religiously until I was 23-24 and then periodically after that. I don't find anything wrong with counselling, my H on the other hand, he hates it.


----------



## camerashy

MattMatt said:


> Really? That's a bit odd.
> 
> I wonder what his motive is for that?


 @MattMatt He is a private person. He is also very proud. He doesn't like it when I talk to anyone about any problems I am having with him. I think some people are just like that.


----------



## MattMatt

camerashy said:


> @MattMatt He is a private person. He is also very proud. He doesn't like it when I talk to anyone about any problems I am having with him. I think some people are just like that.


I can understand that.


----------



## Bibi1031

MattMatt said:


> Really? That's a bit odd.
> 
> I wonder what his motive is for that?


Control?

I honestly think his demands are quite normal except the last one. Unfortunately, your poor friend is going to get blamed because she twisted your hand to go out to the club. I think she will understand that you want to give your marriage an honest try. 

That last demand is what makes me believe that he wants to control you. The thing is that he pretty much had that already as we all give in to the one we love for the most part. You even left without a good reason. He was pretty much calling most of the shots then. 

He probably didn't tell you why he told you to leave, but I will ask anyway...did he tell you why he needed you out? Did you have any husband and wife contact with him after he sent you off? Were you at least seeing each other on a regular basis and being intimate the 3 weeks you were away from home?


----------



## camerashy

MrsAldi said:


> @camerashy they seem like fair & reasonable stipulations.
> 
> For the telling family part, maybe he doesn't want the hassle & interference they might cause.
> 
> Is your friend you had been staying with friendly with your husband?
> Did you get along previously?
> 
> BTW I haven't been clubbing in years, I regard it as a place for singles.
> Anyway clubs here are like dawn of the dead!
> 
> Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


 @MrsAldi Yeah, I think so too, for the most part. The work one is hard though, because probably 7/10 of the shoots I do are out of town. So that really limits me financially, and he knows that. We keep most things separate...i.e we pay our own bills, have separate accounts. I have credit card/ATM cards that he gave me, but I don't use them. He always tells me to go buy things, and I know he wouldn't bat an eyelid if I did, but I dunno... after all this time of doing things separately, it would feel weird.


----------



## camerashy

Bibi1031 said:


> Control?
> 
> I honestly think his demands are quite normal except the last one. Unfortunately, your poor friend is going to get blamed because she twisted your hand to go out to the club. I think she will understand that you want to give your marriage an honest try.
> 
> That last demand is what makes me believe that he wants to control you. The thing is that he pretty much had that already as we all give in to the one we love for the most part. You even left without a good reason. He was pretty much calling most of the shots then.
> 
> He probably didn't tell you why he told you to leave, but I will ask anyway...did he tell you why he needed you out? Did you have any husband and wife contact with him after he sent you off? Were you at least seeing each other on a regular basis and being intimate the 3 weeks you were away from home?


 @Bibi1031 I saw him once, because he dropped off one of my cameras that I asked for. But other than that, it was phone contact only. It was ****ing horrible.


----------



## MrsAldi

@camerashy try and see if you can book jobs in local area?
If you're running low on cash use the cards only for essentials like food, gas etc. 

How is his demeanour towards you at the moment?
Cold, distant? Or anything like that? 

Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## camerashy

MrsAldi said:


> @camerashy try and see if you can book jobs in local area?
> If you're running low on cash use the cards only for essentials like food, gas etc.
> 
> How is his demeanour towards you at the moment?
> Cold, distant? Or anything like that?
> 
> Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


 @MrsAldi Both, but it's probably to be expected. Right now I don't even know where he is.


----------



## Marduk

camerashy said:


> @MrsAldi I feel like I do have to do that.
> 
> First and foremost that he's prepared to give the marriage another shot for the next 6 months, provided that I agree to a few things.
> 
> 1) No work that will take me out of town for more than a day (no overnight/weekend stuff)
> 
> 2) The friend that I have been staying with for the past few weeks is not allowed in our home.
> 
> 3) I am not to tell anyone from my own or his own family about what has happened (not that I would tell his family, but my own?)
> 
> 4) Obviously, he wants access to my phone and I'm not to go out clubbing and things.
> 
> 5) For the time being, all major decisions to be made about our home/marriage and so forth are his to make, because I am untrustworthy.
> 
> Those are the main ones.


I was with him until the last one. 

Big red flag for a control freak. 

Listen, you both seem a little messed up. Even more messed up together. 

Why don't you two just call it a day and pull the pin on this marriage?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

I'm still really struggling to understand how you went from desperately wanting back into your marriage to kissing him and putting his hand on your boob in a club. 

This seems so far out of normality that my brain just can't process it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Bibi1031

camerashy said:


> @Bibi1031 I saw him once, because he dropped off one of my cameras that I asked for. But other than that, it was phone contact only. It was ****ing horrible.


Well, that is a real biggie as he was emotionally and physically distant. How can you trust that he will not abandon you to your fate again? 

BTW, Angry men do this very frequently. They throw their partners out and leave them to fend for themselves and don't see it as abuse...well it is and it's very damaging to the left out spouse. 

Oh, I am certain it was ****ing horrible. It's emotional neglect in its purest form! 

While I understand his need for you to leave your job, you really need to be certain he won't leave you homeless and jobless in the near future either! It's going to be a rocky road for the next Couple of weeks. You two have some deep conversations to cover.


----------



## camerashy

marduk said:


> I'm still really struggling to understand how you went from desperately wanting back into your marriage to kissing him and putting his hand on your boob in a club.
> 
> This seems so far out of normality that my brain just can't process it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 @marduk Me too. I think it was just that everything piled up and I had no answers. I thought it was the beginning of the end. Even now, I don't feel like myself. I haven't felt like myself for a long time.


----------



## Marduk

camerashy said:


> @marduk Me too. I think it was just that everything piled up and I had no answers. I thought it was the beginning of the end. Even now, I don't feel like myself. I haven't felt like myself for a long time.


I think you know, but you don't want to admit it to yourself or to us. 

Which one is it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jnj express

hey camerashy---yes you do have the responsibility of kissing another man----and the friend you went to the bar with, who did not have your back---should be dropped-----all your other H's demands are BS-----THE WHOLE FRIGGIN MGE HAS PROBLEMS----and you BOTH NEED TO WORK ON THEM-----your H does not get to rule you like a slave, and make decisions about what is good or bad-----TWAS YOUR H'S SCREW UP THAT BROUGHT THIS WHOLE MESS ON-----you both need to go to counseling----you need to show some remorse and accountability, but he does not get to LORD IT OVER YOU----and once again----offer to take a POLYGRAPH to prove you stopped as of the kiss----------do not let your H push you around----culpability in this mess and marriage RUNS BOTH WAYS


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## camerashy

@marduk And I think because of that fact...and I don't even want to say this, because I really don't feel this way...but I kind of think that some part of me wanted to sabotage it....because I feel like I am blamed for everything. I tried so hard to be supportive of him, but everything I did was thrown back in my face. 

P.S Please don't eat me.


----------



## Rubix Cubed

Bibi1031 said:


> Control?
> 
> I honestly think his demands are quite normal except the last one. Unfortunately,* your poor friend is going to get blamed because she twisted your hand to go out to the club. * I think she will understand that you want to give your marriage an honest try.


 You seem to be forgetting the "poor friend" wanted Camerashy to NOT tell the husband about Camerashy's cheating. Of the things she did wrong, I think she absolutely did the right thing by telling him. It would be exponentially worse for him to find out on his own, as many here can attest. The "poor friend" is certainly no friend of the marriage , on multiple accounts.
@camerashy,
It sounds like you have your head in the right place (with the exception of the kiss/grope) with your actions now. I hope you are truly remorseful and can get yourself fixed so as to make sure this doesn't happen again. Then maybe you can work on figuring out how to get hubby to get himself fixed also.


----------



## Marduk

I'll cut a long story to a very short one, but I was once the OM kinda in a similar experience. I was in high school, so the stakes were a lot lower, but it made me think of that. 

I once went to a dance party (pre-rave) where this girl I knew from high school started making out with me on the dance floor. 

I had never spoken to her before. It was too loud for me to speak to her. We were both drinking. 

It got to the point where she undid my pants, pulled out my penis, and went down on me right on the dance floor in front of everybody. 

And then she just kind of vanished and ran away.

The next week at school she refused to talk to me. So finally I talked to her friend. 

Who said the whole thing started as a way to make her kinda ex boyfriend jealous and went too far and now she was totally ashamed to even show her face to either one of us. (She was actually a very shy girl and this was way out of the norm for her). 

Could it have been that?

Or could it have been that you know you needed to put a nail into the coffin for your marriage?

Could it be that you just need somebody -- anybody -- in your life?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rubix Cubed

camerashy said:


> @marduk And I think because of that fact...and I don't even want to say this, because I really don't feel this way...but I kind of think that some part of me wanted to sabotage it....because I feel like I am blamed for everything. I tried so hard to be supportive of him, but everything I did was thrown back in my face.
> 
> P.S Please don't eat me.


 As I said in post 184 ,you did it because you wanted to.


----------



## Bibi1031

marduk said:


> I'm still really struggling to understand how you went from desperately wanting back into your marriage to kissing him and putting his hand on your boob in a club.
> 
> This seems so far out of normality that my brain just can't process it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Have you ever been abandoned Or had abandonment issues Marduk? It messes you up real bad. Even infants that are abandoned have a lot of emotional issues when they grow up. Its very damaging to human beings. It's abuse!


----------



## LosingHim

That last stipulation has zero to do with re-building a marriage. The rest, I agree are good boundaries to start with.

Let's not forget my H didn't want to tell anyone either. To this day, the only people that know the full extent of what I did are my H, my best friend and OM. Other friends know a few bits and pieces. Looking back, I honestly don't think he wanted anyone to know because even though he said we were over, deep down he wasn't 100% sure. If it would've gotten out, I think it would have damaged his pride more than I already had and he didn't want anyone to know about that. And if it had gotten out, I think he would have felt as though he couldn't take me back if too many people knew the real story.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

Rubix Cubed said:


> You seem to be forgetting the "poor friend" wanted Camerashy to NOT tell the husband about Camerashy's cheating. Of the things she did wrong, I think she absolutely did the right thing by telling him. It would be exponentially worse for him to find out on his own, as many here can attest. The "poor friend" is certainly no friend of the marriage , on multiple accounts.
> @camerashy,
> It sounds like you have your head in the right place (with the exception of the kiss/grope) with your actions now. I hope you are truly remorseful and can get yourself fixed so as to make sure this doesn't happen again. Then maybe you can work on figuring out how to get hubby to get himself fixed also.


Telling my wife about my revenge affair was the right thing to do.

Telling Camerashy's husband about her kissing and groping in a nightclub seems to have given her husband the ideal opportunity to show how bonkers he can be.


----------



## camerashy

marduk said:


> I'll cut a long story to a very short one, but I was once the OM kinda in a similar experience. I was in high school, so the stakes were a lot lower, but it made me think of that.
> 
> I once went to a dance party (pre-rave) where this girl I knew from high school started making out with me on the dance floor.
> 
> I had never spoken to her before. It was too loud for me to speak to her. We were both drinking.
> 
> It got to the point where she undid my pants, pulled out my penis, and went down on me right on the dance floor in front of everybody.
> 
> And then she just kind of vanished and ran away.
> 
> The next week at school she refused to talk to me. So finally I talked to her friend.
> 
> Who said the whole thing started as a way to make her kinda ex boyfriend jealous and went too far and now she was totally ashamed to even show her face to either one of us. (She was actually a very shy girl and this was way out of the norm for her).
> 
> Could it have been that?
> 
> Or could it have been that you know you needed to put a nail into the coffin for your marriage?
> 
> Could it be that you just need somebody -- anybody -- in your life?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 @marduk It wasn't to make my H jealous, I know that much. I don't think I consciously set out to do anything deliberate...but there was a conscious decision to let it happen. I know that much. And I knew...I knew I was going to feel like ****, but I was already feeling like ****. So I went with it, felt doubly **** and stopped it. There wasn't an intention of doing anything, but all women know when men are flirting with them.


----------



## camerashy

@marduk And I know I'm not a bad person. I know right from wrong. Anyone who knows me knows that this is so outside of my realm of normal behavior, quite frankly it's ridiculous.


----------



## Bibi1031

Rubix Cubed said:


> As I said in post 184 ,you did it because you wanted to.



Yes, she wanted to do it, but she may not even know exactly why yet. A professional can help her figure out why she did it though. Her acting out (making out with a stranger in a bar) is a symptom of deeper issues Rubix.


----------



## camerashy

MattMatt said:


> Telling my wife about my revenge affair was the right thing to do.
> 
> Telling Camerashy's husband about her kissing and groping in a nightclub seems to have given her husband the ideal opportunity to show how bonkers he can be.


 @MattMatt What it has done is cause something very vital to break. And I'm a complete idiot.


----------



## camerashy

Bibi1031 said:


> Yes, she wanted to do it, but she may not even know exactly why yet. A professional can help her figure out why she did it though. Her acting out (making out with a stranger in a bar) is a symptom of deeper issues Rubix.


 @Bibi1031 I think I'm figuring it out


----------



## MattMatt

camerashy said:


> @MattMatt What it has done is cause something very vital to break. And I'm a complete idiot.


So, sadly, is your husband.

Right, with my professional hat on I will recommend relationship counselling for the both of you and individual counselling for you and for him.

This is fixable. If you both want it to be fixed.


----------



## camerashy

MattMatt said:


> So, sadly, is your husband.
> 
> Right, with my professional hat on I will recommend relationship counselling for the both of you and individual counselling for you and for him.
> 
> This is fixable. If you both want it to be fixed.


 @MattMatt I'm willing to do both. My H though? :nono:


----------



## MattMatt

camerashy said:


> @MattMatt I'm willing to do both. My H though? :nono:


Well that is the problem.

Why he demanded a separation is something that he must answer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MrsAldi

MattMatt said:


> Well that is the problem.
> 
> Why he demanded a separation is something that he must answer.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He's not gonna fold. He's got all the aces. 
In his mind he's done nothing, he is the innocent husband who was having a bad time In work & his unsupportive & insubordinate wife went an extra step to betray him. 



Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


----------



## camerashy

MattMatt said:


> Well that is the problem.
> 
> Why he demanded a separation is something that he must answer.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 @MattMatt He just thinks that MC is pointless, never works etc. He has a firm "no" policy on MC. This is where I tell you that he is a family and divorce lawyer - so he deals with family, children, divorce crises on a daily basis.


----------



## MattMatt

camerashy said:


> @MattMatt He just thinks that MC is pointless, never works etc. He has a firm "no" policy on MC. This is where I tell you that he is a family and divorce lawyer - so he deals with family, children, divorce crises on a daily basis.


Oh.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rubix Cubed

camerashy said:


> @Bibi1031 I think I'm figuring it out


 Care to expound on that?

Also the fact that he is a divorce lawyer seems he should be able to state clearly why he kicked you out. Is there more to the story or is he just that whacked?


----------



## NoChoice

OP,
Your H has been made, by some here, into an abusive, controlling, ill tempered demon. If this is so why would you so desperately desire to rejoin him? Perhaps he is not as akin to a demon as some think. Only you know for sure. It is my feeling that your H is somewhat insecure in your feelings towards him and the incident at work seemed to reinforce his doubts.

Some here may find having a woman support her H to be an outdated concept whose time has passed, however I do not fall into that category. Some here fail to see that lack of support from one's spouse can be a form of emotional abandonment and can furthermore be considered abusive. It may be possible that your H was trying to ascertain how deeply your devotion to him ran. Would you leave and offer no real resistance? Was it devastating to do so? Would you fight for the marriage? Perhaps he wanted to see the passion and instead saw betrayal.

This could have very well been a life altering revelation to him and he is truly confused to the point of reevaluating your whole marriage. Some here do not approve of his method of approach but it is not their marriage to save. If he is the controlling abusive monster that some here have painted him to be then you would be wise to sever your relationship with him. However, the fact that you are here trying to glean advice on how to save your marriage gives me cause to think otherwise.

The bottom line is that he may very well be trying to sort out feelings that he never, in his wildest nightmares, thought he would have to face and yet here they are. If he does not respond exactly as others would like does that make him a demon or does it make him a man, flying by the seat of his pants, trying to face the most difficult circumstance of his life? You, more than anyone here, know him and how he works but *maybe you need to know him better......and he you*.

If he is worth rejoining in marriage then I would focus my energy on doing just that and trying to understand how he may be feeling and then, as the process moves forward, explain to him how you are feeling. If he is not worth it then by all means go back with your friend to the club.

Personally, I feel as though you want to save your marriage and be with him and if that is so then you will have to decide what you will tolerate in order to accomplish that goal, what it is worth to you. If he pushes beyond tolerance, then D and move on.


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## camerashy

Rubix Cubed said:


> Care to expound on that?


 @Rubix Cubed My husband has anger issues, holds all the cards in our relationship and I'm ****ing miserable. So instead of confronting the issues like a normal person, I cheated on him because we have no idea how to communicate with each other.

I think that about sums it up.


----------



## camerashy

MattMatt said:


> Oh.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 @MattMatt So basically, he thinks he knows everything.


----------



## camerashy

Rubix Cubed said:


> Care to expound on that?
> 
> Also the fact that he is a divorce lawyer seems he should be able to state clearly why he kicked you out. Is there more to the story or is he just that whacked?


 @Rubix Cubed I don't know, and I don't think he is going to tell me. He doesn't think he owes me any explanations for anything right now.


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## camerashy

3 am and he's still not home


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## Bibi1031

camerashy said:


> @MattMatt He just thinks that MC is pointless, never works etc. He has a firm "no" policy on MC. This is where I tell you that he is a family and divorce lawyer - so he deals with family, children, divorce crises on a daily basis.


How terribly sad that he dismisses such a valuable tool. I am not surprised though. He is a counselor that advises, not one that heals. 

When you have a physical ailment, you go to a doctor. When your tooth hurts, you go to a dentist. When you have emotional issues that create havoc in yout life, you go to therapy. 

It's really that simple, and yet many attach such negativity towards this profession thinking that it's not money well spent. They couldn't be more wrong.


----------



## camerashy

Bibi1031 said:


> How terribly sad that he dismisses such a valuable tool. I am not surprised though. He is a counselor that advises, not one that heals.
> 
> When you have a physical ailment, you go to a doctor. When your tooth hurts, you go to a dentist. When you have emotional issues that crelate havoc in yout life, you go to therapy.
> 
> It's really that simple, and yet many attach such negativity towards this profession thinking that it's not money well spent. They couldn't be more wrong.


 @Bibi1031 I think therapy is an invaluable tool as well. Before IC I was having panic attacks on a regular basis, and I was completely disconnected from my feelings. My only concern with MC is that I don't think I could speak freely with my H present in the room.


----------



## MrsAldi

camerashy said:


> 3 am and he's still not home


Maybe he's staying with a friend. 


Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## camerashy

MrsAldi said:


> Maybe he's staying with a friend.
> 
> 
> Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


 @MrsAldi He will be, I'm sure. Almost four weeks now and we've been in the same room for a total of 2 1/2 hours. Great stuff.


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## Bibi1031

camerashy said:


> @Bibi1031 I think therapy is an invaluable tool as well. Before IC I was having panic attacks on a regular basis, and I was completely disconnected from my feelings. My only concern with MC is that I don't think I could speak freely with my H present in the room.


No counseling will work for him dear. That's why he will never get better. He will only get worse. It's tragic really. 

Well, sleep if you can. Don't worry about his where a bouts. He is just dishing out more punishment and teaching you whose the little boss in his Im the king of my castle, watch me roar world. How typical and narrow minded he is.


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## MrsAldi

camerashy said:


> @MrsAldi He will be, I'm sure. Almost four weeks now and we've been in the same room for a total of 2 1/2 hours. Great stuff.


It will take a while for things to settle down. 
Be prepared for stormy months ahead. 
From what I've read here, Infidelity is not forgiven instantly. 


Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## Bibi1031

camerashy said:


> 3 am and he's still not home


are you really surprised? Now the mind games begin. 

He may be an academically intelligent man, but he is an emotional retard! Sorry Camerashy, but it's the truth.


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## Rubix Cubed

camerashy said:


> @Rubix Cubed I don't know, and I don't think he is going to tell me. He doesn't think he owes me any explanations for anything right now.


 From the last 2 posts you replied to me, I think you should take the gift of separation he's given you and go see whatever lawyer he despises the most, and has whipped him in court the most times, and file and make yourself happy. There is plenty of stuff in life to make you miserable, your marriage and home life shouldn't be one of them and he doesn't sound willing or even a candidate for fixing himself and becoming a safe partner. Take the ATM card and split the account before you have him served.


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## Maxo

MattMatt said:


> If so, that's splendid.
> 
> But what if he has *another* workplace problem down the line and he decides to take *that* out on Camerashy, too?


Then she can divorce. And, if she is insensitive and dismisses his work plight,he can divorce. And,if he gets verbally abusive,she can divorce. And, if she forgets to pick up bread and eggs from the store,he can divorce. And,if he leaves the toilet.seat up, she can divorce. Etc


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## Maxo

Bibi1031 said:


> Well, that is a real biggie as he was emotionally and physically distant. How can you trust that he will not abandon you to your fate again?
> 
> BTW, Angry men do this very frequently. They throw their partners out and leave them to fend for themselves and don't see it as abuse...well it is and it's very damaging to the left out spouse.
> 
> Oh, I am certain it was ****ing horrible. It's emotional neglect in its purest form!
> 
> While I understand his need for you to leave your job, you really need to be certain he won't leave you homeless and jobless in the near future either! It's going to be a rocky road for the next Couple of weeks. You two have some deep conversations to cover.


Angry women accomplish the same thing,often using false DV charges. They seem to have the cops fooled,although they are starting to catch on.


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## Dyokemm

"I tried so hard to be supportive of him, but everything I did was thrown back in my face."

camerashy,

What you did with OM is definitely wrong...and your BH has every right to be angry about it.....and I think every poster here agrees with this point.

I think a lot of the disagreement between those trying to help and advise you is related to why exactly your BH asked for the separation.

You stated that you told him you thought he was acting like a baby in one post...yet you also said this above in a recent post.

The question remains....Was your BH overreacting and being a jerk?......or were you belittling how he was upset by and dealing with the work incident, in short being unsupportive of your H while he was stressed and his reaction (asking for separation) was because he felt you let him down when he really needed you?

This is a key point.

Honestly....do you feel you were unkind and unsupportive to your H during the time he was stressed and you were arguing?

Do you think your BH thinks or feels that you were?

I ask because honestly....if you were belittling your H at this time and ridiculing how he was dealing with it, then I can see why he would be upset with you (you did mention in a post earlier that you just told him to quit that job and work somewhere else....not exactly being understanding and supportive IMO).....and I can understand that if HE really felt this way, no matter if you felt it was not that big of a deal, he might want some separation to think through the status of the M.

Many people, men and women, would feel similar if they felt let down, disrespected, or even betrayed by their spouse when they were dealing with a stressful situation in life.....I can remember countless threads where a spouse was basically told to grow up or get over it by a callous spouse when dealing with such things (though usually it has been an unsupportive H), whether that thing was a job stress, death of a relative, or other general life problem.

And if that is truly what was going on, then your indiscretion was like pouring gasoline onto the fire of your BH's already present resentment.....sorta like doubling down on the disrespect in his eyes.

IMO....this is the key question in your situation.

Because the answer helps other posters understand whether your BH has severe anger management issues and has overreacted to minor arguments in your M....in other words was completely in the wrong to ask for the separation to begin with.

Or is he a H who legitimately felt disrespected by his W while dealing with a potential threat to his career.....and felt that justified taking a break to reevaluate if the M was working for him....only to have his W who he already viewed as demeaning and unsupportive of him from the work incident further disrespect him by cheating.


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## camerashy

Dyokemm said:


> "I tried so hard to be supportive of him, but everything I did was thrown back in my face."
> 
> camerashy,
> 
> What you did with OM is definitely wrong...and your BH has every right to be angry about it.....and I think every poster here agrees with this point.
> 
> I think a lot of the disagreement between those trying to help and advise you is related to why exactly your BH asked for the separation.
> 
> You stated that you told him you thought he was acting like a baby in one post...yet you also said this above in a recent post.
> 
> The question remains....Was your BH overreacting and being a jerk?......or were you belittling how he was upset by and dealing with the work incident, in short being unsupportive of your H while he was stressed and his reaction (asking for separation) was because he felt you let him down when he really needed you?
> 
> This is a key point.
> 
> Honestly....do you feel you were unkind and unsupportive to your H during the time he was stressed and you were arguing?
> 
> Do you think your BH thinks or feels that you were?
> 
> I ask because honestly....if you were belittling your H at this time and ridiculing how he was dealing with it, then I can see why he would be upset with you (you did mention in a post earlier that you just told him to quit that job and work somewhere else....not exactly being understanding and supportive IMO).....and I can understand that if HE really felt this way, no matter if you felt it was not that big of a deal, he might want some separation to think through the status of the M.
> 
> Many people, men and women, would feel similar if they felt let down, disrespected, or even betrayed by their spouse when they were dealing with a stressful situation in life.....I can remember countless threads where a spouse was basically told to grow up or get over it by a callous spouse when dealing with such things (though usually it has been an unsupportive H), whether that thing was a job stress, death of a relative, or other general life problem.
> 
> And if that is truly what was going on, then your indiscretion was like pouring gasoline onto the fire of your BH's already present resentment.....sorta like doubling down on the disrespect in his eyes.
> 
> IMO....this is the key question in your situation.
> 
> Because the answer helps other posters understand whether your BH has severe anger management issues and has overreacted to minor arguments in your M....in other words was completely in the wrong to ask for the separation to begin with.
> 
> Or is he a H who legitimately felt disrespected by his W while dealing with a potential threat to his career.....and felt that justified taking a break to reevaluate if the M was working for him....only to have his W who he already viewed as demeaning and unsupportive of him from the work incident further disrespect him by cheating.


 @Dyokemm I definitely get what you're saying... and it's really hard to explain. It's really hard to support someone who throws his toys out of the cot every time something doesn't go his way. He was understandably really upset that the woman laid allegations against him, but even after he had been cleared of these, none of his anger diminished. The types of outbursts I'm talking about are...things like yelling to get his point across every time we had a disagreement, criticizing things I was cooking (even things I have cooked for him multiple times - and I'm not a bad cook), criticizing my appearance, my work...the sorts of things he wouldn't normally criticize. And with a lot of colorful language.

I guess what I mean by "tried my best to support him," is that I started out trying to talk to him about the situation and assure him that everything would be fine and after that only caused more fights, I kept my mouth shut and agreed with everything he said. There's probably a whole lot more that I could have done.


----------



## bandit.45

camerashy said:


> @Dyokemm I definitely get what you're saying... and it's really hard to explain. It's really hard to support someone who throws his toys out of the cot every time something doesn't go his way. He was understandably really upset that the woman laid allegations against him, but even after he had been cleared of these, none of his anger diminished. The types of outbursts I'm talking about are...things like yelling to get his point across every time we had a disagreement, criticizing things I was cooking (even things I have cooked for him multiple times - and I'm not a bad cook), criticizing my appearance, my work...the sorts of things he wouldn't normally criticize. And with a lot of colorful language.
> 
> I guess what I mean by "tried my best to support him," is that I started out trying to talk to him about the situation and assure him that everything would be fine and after that only caused more fights, I kept my mouth shut and agreed with everything he said. There's probably a whole lot more that I could have done.


Everything you just said says to me that your husband does not have the emotional maturity to handle a marriage. Not with you or any woman. 

OP what you did was wrong, but staying in a dysfunctional marriage with an immature man is even more wrong, and I guarantee you if things do not change, you will,cheat again, and you will most likely go the whole way next time.


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## camerashy

bandit.45 said:


> Everything you just said says to me that your husband does not have the emotional maturity to handle a marriage. Not with you or any woman.
> 
> OP what you did was wrong, but staying in a dysfunctional marriage with an immature man is even more wrong, and I guarantee you if things do not change, you will,cheat again, and you will most likely go the whole way next time.


 @bandit.45 No way, no how. That would never happen. I don't think I've ever felt so ****, or hated myself so much as I do right now...and I've been through a fair amount of **** in my life. I don't buy into the "once a cheater, always a cheater" scenario...betrayal is a conscious choice. 

I don't think either me or my H have a whole lot of emotional maturity to be honest, but it is very hard to amend that when the other party is not self-aware.


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## bandit.45

camerashy said:


> @bandit.45 No way, no how. That would never happen. I don't think I've ever felt so ****, or hated myself so much as I do right now...and I've been through a fair amount of **** in my life.
> 
> I don't think either me or my H have a whole lot of emotional maturity to be honest, but it is very hard to amend that when the other party is not self-aware.


That is what my ex told me the first time she cheated. Eighteen years later she did it again. And I wasn't the brat your husband is. 

Get into counseling and find out why you deliberately threw your boundaries out the window, then you can come back later and say 'no way, no how' once you have good coping mechanisms in place. But don't stay in an unhappy marriage regardless.


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## Aron4452

I am afraid that he is really cheating on you.


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## camerashy

bandit.45 said:


> That is what my ex told me the first time she cheated. Eighteen years later she did it again. And I wasn't the brat your husband is.
> 
> Get into counseling and find out why you deliberately threw your boundaries out the window, then you can come back later and say 'no way, no how' once you have good coping mechanisms in place. But don't stay in an unhappy marriage regardless.


 @bandit.45 Yes, I've decided to re-engage in IC a.s.a.p. My H is not open to MC, but it's quite clear I have a few things to work on personally anyway.


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## camerashy

Aron4452 said:


> I am afraid that he is really cheating on you.


 @Aron4452 I don't think he would react the way he is if he was guilty of doing something also. I have never suspected it, anyway. I more likely believe that his inconsistencies are stress related.


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## farsidejunky

camerashy said:


> @Aron4452 I don't think he would react the way he is if he was guilty of doing something also. I have never suspected it, anyway. I more likely believe that his inconsistencies are stress related.


Did he ever come home?

Don't let this incident make him think it's okay for your boundaries to no longer be important.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## bandit.45

camerashy said:


> @bandit.45 Yes, I've decided to re-engage in IC a.s.a.p. My H is not open to MC, but it's quite clear I have a few things to work on personally anyway.


You are here and talking about it. That is a good start. It means you know what you did was stupid and you want to make changes to make sure you don't do it again. 

It takes retraining your brain, and it will be hard. You can do it.


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## Bibi1031

So, has the prodigal son retuned?

On another note, I see that you are beginning to look back into your marriage and you are beginning to realize that it was far from wonderful. 

You think that if you would of handled things differently, you guys would not be in this predicament. That logic is flawed camerashy. You can't calm the beast once it rears its ugly head because you can't reason with him. Your husband reminds me of a bull in a china cabinet. 

You never stood a chance. You need therapy, your picker is messed up. Hopefully, you will pick better next time. 

Your husband is abusive because he is cunning enough that he doesn't leave bruises when he tears you down. He instead strips you of your self esteem and self worth. Hence his need to have total control of you with that last stipulation you wrote in an earlier post.


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## Marduk

camerashy said:


> @marduk It wasn't to make my H jealous, I know that much. I don't think I consciously set out to do anything deliberate...but there was a conscious decision to let it happen. I know that much. And I knew...I knew I was going to feel like ****, but I was already feeling like ****. So I went with it, felt doubly **** and stopped it. There wasn't an intention of doing anything, but all women know when men are flirting with them.


Some part of you wanted to. 

Getting at that reason is going to help you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## phillybeffandswiss

> *the sorts of things he wouldn't normally criticize.* And with a lot of colorful language.


So, you are looking back through your marriage and seeing this is TOTALLY out of character. It's strange how you start agreeing with the negative picture of the emotionally/abusive stunted husband, but continually drop tidbit after tidbit of him not being controlling until this incident.

When he threw you out did he overreact? Depends. 
Does he need counseling? Yes. 
Is his reaction to counseling abnormal? Nope. 
Is being against counseling normal? Yep.
Is his dislike of counseling most likely tied to his profession? Yep.

As I said earlier,* he is wrong in how he is treating you,* but people here DO NOT GET, as evidenced by many of the posts, what happened to him. Would you like a link to explain what is going on in his head?


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## Marduk

To be clear. 

I think you need to seriously work in yourself, mature, and find strength. 

I do not think you should go back to this marriage. You blew it, and he blew it. Call it a learning experience. 

If you return, you will return to weakness and codependency. And he will always have power over you because you cheated on him. You gave him even more power, which really should concern you. 

Get out. Get clear. Get strong. Get help. 

Don't date for at least a year.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marduk

LosingHim said:


> That last stipulation has zero to do with re-building a marriage. The rest, I agree are good boundaries to start with.
> 
> Let's not forget my H didn't want to tell anyone either. To this day, the only people that know the full extent of what I did are my H, my best friend and OM. Other friends know a few bits and pieces. Looking back, I honestly don't think he wanted anyone to know because even though he said we were over, deep down he wasn't 100% sure. If it would've gotten out, I think it would have damaged his pride more than I already had and he didn't want anyone to know about that. And if it had gotten out, I think he would have felt as though he couldn't take me back if too many people knew the real story.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I will admit that it's very hard to know that people know about my wife's EA. We only told some close friends, but it's hard. 

Even when my wife brought it up to her friends as an example of the slippery slope that almost cost her her marriage as a warning when one of them was secretly texting an ex, I felt some degree of shame even as I was proud of her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## donny64

camerashy said:


> @Row Jimmy There is no way I could have lived with myself if I hadn't have told him. I considered it for a second, but I had to put myself in H's shoes. There is just no way I would ever forgive him if he was to do something like that and then keep it secret. For me that puts the betrayal on a whole other level. Perhaps I'm foolish, but after thinking about what a lot of the other posters have said, I think that I naively felt that being honest somehow would make the situation easier.


It did make it easier. If he's not using the whole situation as his excuse to get out, it made it easier. Trust me. 

My W put herself in almost an identical situation. And then hid it from me for a year before I found out from another source. Believe me, it would have gone considerably better for her had she told me the next day. I'm a big boy. Chit happens. And I get that. What I don't get and what has fractured trust is the fact it was hidden from me for a year. That is the biggest hurdle in my mind to rebuilding things, not the fact she tongue wrestled some loser in a hot tub for a minute while drunk off her azz. It was her completely sober decision for over a year to keep me in the dark about it that did the real damage.



> And we were talking about my M problems and I guess he was just saying all the things I wanted to hear. I felt better than I had in a long time. So when he made a pass at me, I went with it.


Do not again talk to strange men who are not your proven and trusted true friends about marital problems. They will pick that crap up and run with it....as this guy did. Have more respect for yourself, and your husband, than to "talk about problems" with guys who are trying to get into your pants. And believe me, MOST of them likely are. The only reason most men who don't know you will sit at some bar and listen to some woman blather on about how bad her marriage or husband is, is because they see it as an "in" to getting into your jeans. Of course he was "saying all the things you wanted to hear." He knew what buttons to push to get in your pants because YOU TOLD HIM WHICH ONES TO PUSH.



> #5 Honestly... I felt so bad...I had to tell him. I thought if the situation were reversed I would want to know and somehow thought that by telling him straight away, that it could minimize some of the damage it would cause. My friend was telling me not to, it was just one tiny kiss etc, but I just knew I had to.


Your friend is an idiot. I was NOT "just one tiny kiss". It was a significant betrayal. 



> Unfortunately, your poor friend is going to get blamed because she twisted your hand to go out to the club. I think she will understand that you want to give your marriage an honest try.


Her "poor friend" took her to a club, helped her get drunk, did not keep an eye on her when she was vulnerable, watched her make out with some guy, and then told her to lie to her husband about it. 

Yes, camerashy is fully responsible for her own actions...but with friends like that watching your back, who needs enemies. Is this "poor friend" single by chance? Cheating on her husband or SO?

A lot happened in the time between poor friend and camerashy walking into the club, and the time she lip locked some guy. At any point her friend could have said "hey....we are out to get your mind off of things. But you've been drinking, and I don't think you want to do what you are doing though...let's get out of here."

A good friend would have been c0ck blocking her azz off for camerashy, and protecting her drunk, confused, and vulnerable friend to make sure she did not make a mistake she would (and clearly does now) regret.

Again, with friends like that....


----------



## Marduk

Ya Donny the friend is toxic. Maybe even dangerous. 

She wanted a wingman while trolling for men.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## drifting on

Camerashy, 

You have two separate issues here to work on at the same time, infidelity and marriage. The issue to get top billing right now is infidelity. Your marriage wasn't perfect, that's not entirely your fault, it's both you and your husband. The infidelity is yours entirely though, and quite frankly your reasons for cheating scare me. 

As an outsider based on your posts I see some issues. These issues have contributed to the demise of your marriage. First and foremost is being supportive, and I don't think you have been as supportive as you should have been. You have also waffled on this which leads me to believe you haven't really been in his corner so to speak. I also believe this has been happening over time and this last instance was the straw that broke the camels back. I believe your husband has built resentment towards you regarding this and it is the reason for kicking you out of the home. 

I can tell you this is serious, my wife had done the same and I pointed it out every so often. It would change for a few weeks then back to normal. That's on me for not stopping this behavior. But I built resentment and began to be less communicative with my wife. I'm sure you can see this is not the way to address this issue. A continued battle waged over and over becomes tiresome to the point you give up. However, that does not mean I didn't release the feelings of not being supported by my wife. 

Being a lawyer credibility is vital to his position, and quitting a firm suddenly would not look good to future employers. Asking or telling him to quit would be viewed as weak and running from your problems. Fighting an internal issue within your employer is much different then arguing a case in court. I would hope you mature enough to see that going nuclear is far worse then using patience and tact with a work issue. This isn't McDonald's where you can scream at a coworker for not making a Big Mac quick enough. He will be watched by the firms management to see how he resolves this conflict and the methods used. In other words, think of a resolution before spouting off and appearing to be ignorant at solving conflicts. 

You have said the home was his before marriage, and my belief is what you have before is yours. I may get beat up for this comment but it is my belief. That does not mean however that you kick out or threaten to kick out the spouse because you don't get your way. Asking for a break is in my opinion ridiculous, if he felt that strongly the marriage wasn't working he should have requested a separation. Again, this is just how serious being supportive can be, it's important to some but not everyone. It's obviously important to your husband though. 

Another problem I see is the abuse or lack thereof. I think your husband is frustrated about the support, has no answer to get you to be supportive, and in return kicked you out. That to some extent did in fact open your eyes, and you looked right at another man. Not the desired effect your husband wanted. Your friend should be history, anyone who sits and watches what you did is not a friend of your marriage. The fact she advised you not to tell your husband should be proof enough to her. If your friend asks why, tell her the truth, a real friend would have at least advised you what you were doing. Your friend can't stop you, but she can say wake up, what are you doing? It's your decision from there. 

I agree with all of the demands your husband has asked for, yes, even number five. He is protecting his best interest, the marriage, something you were entrusted to do but failed. It's not a control issue, you made a bad choice so he is relieving you from making further decisions about the marriage. My attitude towards this would be if you don't like it the door is behind you. I'm sure this will anger some posters here, but the husband hasn't made a decision that nuked the marriage, OP did. 

This is why I don't see the controlling, the abuse, I see a man who is hurt that his wife didn't believe in him. A wife that admittedly lost respect for him and has waffled on being supportive. Put yourself in his shoes, what would you see?

Remorse, not very remorseful in my opinion. OP has a long way to go with remorse. Regret, yes, but regret is far different from remorse. The fact that she knew this was heading towards what happened is the real proof of remorse. OP, can you tell me how you are remorseful? If you answer with anything like I feel physically ill, I knew I shouldn't have done that, I'm sorry I did that, well, that's regret. I don't expect you to honestly know the answer to this, it usually comes with time, but the fact you say you are remorseful is wrong, you are regretful. 

OP, I will try and help you in any way that I can, just like the other posters here. The key to getting help is honesty and being receptive to the questions asked of you. It may feel like you are under attack, you aren't, you are instead being shown a way to help save your marriage if you so desire.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Maxo

phillybeffandswiss said:


> So, you are looking back through your marriage and seeing this is TOTALLY out of character. It's strange how you start agreeing with the negative picture of the emotionally/abusive stunted husband, but continually drop tidbit after tidbit of him not being controlling until this incident.
> 
> When he threw you out did he overreact? Depends.
> Does he need counseling? Yes.
> Is his reaction to counseling abnormal? Nope.
> Is being against counseling normal? Yep.
> Is his dislike of counseling most likely tied to his profession? Yep.
> 
> As I said earlier,* he is wrong in how he is treating you,* but people here DO NOT GET, as evidenced by many of the posts, what happened to him. Would you like a link to explain what is going on in his head?


 I noticed this , as well. The toxic suggestions are starting to sink in. The initial "diagnosis" from an obvious misandrist, is, gradually, being supported by "recollections" of his " abuse".
Yet, early on she describes her husband in a more flattering light "big heart" , "generous" etc.
Recall that the initial "diagnosis" was made way early on, before there was much indication, other than his reaction to her perceived lack of support, of any abusiveness.
There are suggestions that he, himself was cheating and the , despite being cleared by the internal investigation at work, there was , probably, some truth to the allegations.
Camera, if you want to save your marriage, IMO, you would be well advised to disregard this amateur, long distance, unfounded diagnosis of a personality disorder of an abuser.


----------



## Maxo

camerashy said:


> @Dyokemm I definitely get what you're saying... and it's really hard to explain. It's really hard to support someone who throws his toys out of the cot every time something doesn't go his way. He was understandably really upset that the woman laid allegations against him, but even after he had been cleared of these, none of his anger diminished. The types of outbursts I'm talking about are...things like yelling to get his point across every time we had a disagreement, criticizing things I was cooking (even things I have cooked for him multiple times - and I'm not a bad cook), criticizing my appearance, my work...the sorts of things he wouldn't normally criticize. And with a lot of colorful language.
> 
> I guess what I mean by "tried my best to support him," is that I started out trying to talk to him about the situation and assure him that everything would be fine and after that only caused more fights, I kept my mouth shut and agreed with everything he said. There's probably a whole lot more that I could have done.


"Toys out of the cot"? Didn't you , also, early on, refer to him as acting like a child.
I cannot recall how long you two have been together, but, I think you should really go back and see if this is how you really feel he is, in general or if you are being influenced by a person with obvious anti male feelings that is advising you.


----------



## *Deidre*

Bibi1031 said:


> You were set free. You need to end your marriage. He used the break to get rid of you. He is upset because he is projecting and set you free so he could Persue his freedom as well.
> 
> Things backfired when his plan B didn't stay put until he was good and ready to be honest with you. He is probably cheating on you if he wanted a break from marriage. He is projecting because he probably did have sex with someone else and that is why he believes you had sex with a guy too.
> 
> You were his plan B. He can shove his plan B where the sun don't shine honey.  You deserve better. File for divorce and snoop. You will find evidence of a third person in your marriage. 99% of couples don't ask for a break in the marriage unless a third party has been introduced into the mix!
> 
> He is cheating!


Leaning in agreement with this.


----------



## bandit.45

*Deidre* said:


> Leaning in agreement with this.


Its not a "break" until those separation documents are signed and recorded. He told her he wanted some time to himself, not that he wanted to end the marital relationship. 

He may have asked to take a vacation from her, but that doesn't give her leeway to go snog another man and let him play with her breasts. 

Was the husband cheating during this time? Probably. Still doesn't give her implied permission to cheat.


----------



## *Deidre*

bandit.45 said:


> Its not a "break" until those separation documents are signed and recorded. He told her he wanted some time to himself, not that he wanted to end the marital relationship.
> 
> He may have asked to take a vacation from her, but that doesn't give her leeway to go snog another man and let him play with her breasts.
> 
> Was the husband cheating during this time? Probably. Still doesn't give her implied permission to cheat.


sounds dysfunctional all around.


----------



## bandit.45

*Deidre* said:


> sounds dysfunctional all around.


Absolutely it is. But someone in that marriage has to hold themselves to a standard. Neither one has unfortunately.


----------



## donny64

bandit.45 said:


> Its not a "break" until those separation documents are signed and recorded. He told her he wanted some time to himself, not that he wanted to end the marital relationship.
> 
> He may have asked to take a vacation from her, but that doesn't give her leeway to go snog another man and let him play with her breasts.
> 
> Was the husband cheating during this time? Probably. Still doesn't give her implied permission to cheat.


Agree. Anyone who takes such a "break" as a green light to cheat, is still cheating. 

Sounds to me like he could certainly be cheating. But, as we all know, you should not make important decisions (divorce, cheating, sleeping with others) until you have CONFIRMED this, and have left the relationship and are certain you will not reconcile.

Revenge affairs almost never end well. A "revenge affair" when the SO's affair is only a suspicion is not a revenge affair or reactive affair at all. It is cheating, plain and simple, and is going "scorched earth" on a relationship with possibly repairable issues simply because someone was feeling lonely, neglected, or controlled. Those issues can be fixed often times. Cheating has a very low success rate of being "fixed". 

It doesn't happen often, but there have been plenty of cases on this forum (and just in general life) where someone is suspected of cheating, and it winds up to be nothing. Despite all the red flags being there, it winds up as nothing. Or something entirely different than what was suspected.

Having said that....she needs to investigate and find out if he has been unfaithful. Maybe he has been. Or maybe he just got tired of her crap and needed time away. She needs to find out the answer to that.

His being under investigation for inappropriate emails at work, and his subsequent actions (to me) point to the very real possibility he has much to hide. But until that is confirmed, it's only so much speculation. He could just be a guy at the end of his rope over work issues, marriage issues, and other stresses, and just needed time away.

If it's the latter, camerashy has really screwed the pooch big time, and now will have to wonder if or when his reactive / revenge affair axe will fall on her. He does potentially sound like a guy (from the side of the story we are getting) who could go that route. She took a bad house fire, and instead of calling the fire dept. for help, she threw gasoline on it.


----------



## Maxo

OP has posted no evidence that he has ever cheated. Phone records, sightings, notes or texts? Nothing.


----------



## Maxo

*Deidre* said:


> Leaning in agreement with this.


It would be irresponsible to assume there is a third person in the marriage at this point. And, there are no studies that I am aware of that support the contention that 99% of all couples where a separation has been requested have cheating involved. That is pure exaggeration and fiction, to boot.


----------



## LucasJackson

Maxo said:


> Follow up study done by one woman researcher indicated that after two years or so,every betrayed husband she interviewed that had stayed regretted it.


Not surprised at all. The #1 thing divorced people say about being divorced is "I should have done it sooner".


----------



## drifting on

Per OP who has posted more then once, she does not feel her husband is cheating. Could she be wrong, we all could be, but based on her posts she was initially fond when talking about her husband. Then posts came in that her husband is abusive, her husband has cheated, his thinking not in the norm. I found this to be the most normal, he was just hit with the infidelity bullet, of course he's not normal. 

Prior to infidelity OP has stated she ran away from problems, supported her husband, should have supported her husband more. My biggest problem is that OP has waffled, and I believe @marduk is very astute with his prediction, there is more and that the OP be honest. OP has stated she is being honest, I too think there is much more to this. 

Why waffle if you told the truth? I supported my husband, I lost respect for my husband and thought he was being childish. I should have supported my husband more. So which is it? I think she cheated because she resented her husband, a real man complimented her, she didn't respect her husband. 

How many times, just like my wife did, had the story started one way and then changed. My wife said they went for a walk, then changed to they held hands, then changed to holding hands and hugged, then holding hands, hugged, and then one kiss. Then one make out session, then finally sex. What started out as lunch changed to a six month long affair. I'm not saying OP has done what my wife did, but my wife wasn't the first to lie. OP I'm not saying you are lying, I'm saying there is more, and if you desire the help you came for then you need to be honest. If you have been honest then I will leave your thread, I'm only trying to help.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Let's make sure people understand what may have happened. Drifting sort of kind of addressed it, but it is still off base.

Just look at all of the posters who have said or implied there MUST be something to the sexual harassment allegation. Now, imagine this behavior at work for for the last few months with, an ongoing investigation. Guess what else? You have to be VERY quiet once you are accused. You can't run around shouting "I am innocent" through the workplace because it is an internal private investigation and they initially protect the accuser; rightly so I might add. The company is covering their ass so, you have zero support at work. Even coworkers are treating you like a pariah for their own career preservation. Also, you have to be 100% careful of everything you say and write. Then imagine you feel your wife isn't giving you support at home. You both communicate poorly and she adds to the problem by becoming an agreeable "yes" woman because she is also confused by your rage "but he says he is innocent." As it gets worse, the wife leaves on a planned work trip which, in his eyes, should have been canceled. They bickered about it before, but "it was already planned." So, work has put him number 2 and now so has his wife. It is determined he is not culpable at all, but like this thread has shown people still give him a sideways look and treat him as a sexual harasser who hasn't been caught. Then it becomes worse because he can't explain his frustration and his wife can't understand why he is still mad months later. Again, he is now labeled negatively in his industry and it isn't like a line cook at McDonald's where no one cares. Certain cases have probably been removed and his workload has most likely changed. His career is probably PERMANENTLY tainted. So, they continue bickering for even more months, he builds further resentment, boom time to go and he needs a break. Then she throws more fuel on the fire with cheating and now he may be done.

Not right, but I get his actions more than I understand hers. Go research, false accusations are horrible. Many people have had to change positions, move out of state and actually go into other lines of work, for less pay, because of unfounded sexual harassment allegations. Marriages do fail because of false or unfounded sexual harassment allegations alone, without an incident of cheating added to the mix. 

Let me add, since he is a family and divorcee lawyer, I can only IMAGINE how many MC and IC failures he has witnessed come across his desk. I'm not surprised he is jaded at all. Still, I think he needs it, but have fun trying to convince of its merit.


----------



## drifting on

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Let's make sure people understand what may have happened. Drifting sort of kind of addressed it, but it is still off base.
> 
> Just look at all of the posters who have said or implied there MUST be something to the sexual harassment allegation. Now, imagine this behavior at work for for the last few months with, an ongoing investigation. Guess what else? You have to be VERY quiet once you are accused. You can't run around shouting "I am innocent" through the workplace because it is an internal private investigation and they initially protect the accuser; rightly so I might add. The company is covering their ass so, you have zero support at work. Even coworkers are treating you like a pariah for their own career preservation. Also, you have to be 100% careful of everything you say and write. Then imagine you feel your wife isn't giving you support at home. You both communicate poorly and she adds to the problem by becoming an agreeable "yes" woman because she is also confused by your rage "but he says he is innocent." As it gets worse, the wife leaves on a planned work trip which, in his eyes, should have been canceled. They bickered about it before, but "it was already planned." So, work has put him number 2 and now so has his wife. It is determined he is not culpable at all, but like this thread has shown people still give him a sideways look and treat him as a sexual harasser who hasn't been caught. Then it becomes worse because he can't explain his frustration and his wife can't understand why he is still mad months later. Again, he is now labeled negatively in his industry and it isn't like a line cook at McDonald's where no one cares. Certain cases have probably been removed and his workload has most likely changed. His career is probably PERMANENTLY tainted. So, they continue bickering for even more months, he builds further resentment, boom time to go and he needs a break. Then she throws more fuel on the fire with cheating and now he may be done.
> 
> Not right, but I get his actions more than I understand hers. Go research, false accusations are horrible. Many people have had to change positions, move out of state and actually go into other lines of work, for less pay, because of unfounded sexual harassment allegations. Marriages do fail because of false or unfounded sexual harassment allegations alone, without an incident of cheating added to the mix.
> 
> Let me add, since he is a family and divorcee lawyer, I can only IMAGINE how many MC and IC failures he has witnessed come across his desk. I'm not surprised he is jaded at all. Still, I think he needs it, but have fun trying to convince of its merit.




This is what I have slowly tried to show. I know it's been stated that OP has been abandoned, but I see it the other way around. Just so you know what an investigation is like I'll tell you about my buddies son. He works with special needs kids, an accusation was made against him. His superior came to his class and dismissed him until further notice. No reason given, was told they would call him tonight. He went home, scared he did something wrong but no idea what. That night his superior called, he was told if the accusation, an investigation started, and to get a lawyer. He was cleared of any wrongdoing, but just imagine what he felt, imagine your spouse has now lost respect for you and telling you that you are being childish. I understand why he asked her to leave.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

drifting on said:


> Per OP who has posted more then once, she does not feel her husband is cheating. Could she be wrong, we all could be, but based on her posts she was initially fond when talking about her husband. Then posts came in that her husband is abusive, her husband has cheated, his thinking not in the norm. I found this to be the most normal, he was just hit with the infidelity bullet, of course he's not normal.
> 
> Prior to infidelity OP has stated she ran away from problems, supported her husband, should have supported her husband more. My biggest problem is that OP has waffled, and I believe @marduk is very astute with his prediction, there is more and that the OP be honest. OP has stated she is being honest, I too think there is much more to this.
> 
> Why waffle if you told the truth? I supported my husband, I lost respect for my husband and thought he was being childish. I should have supported my husband more. So which is it? I think she cheated because she resented her husband, a real man complimented her, she didn't respect her husband.
> 
> How many times, just like my wife did, had the story started one way and then changed. My wife said they went for a walk, then changed to they held hands, then changed to holding hands and hugged, then holding hands, hugged, and then one kiss. Then one make out session, then finally sex. What started out as lunch changed to a six month long affair. I'm not saying OP has done what my wife did, but my wife wasn't the first to lie. OP I'm not saying you are lying, I'm saying there is more, and if you desire the help you came for then you need to be honest. If you have been honest then I will leave your thread, I'm only trying to help.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'll be honest -- I'm still relatively convinced she will admit that she had sex with this guy, and that there were other flirtations or something before the 'break.'

I just think it will take time to admit that, or I could be totally wrong. Either way it will come out in the wash and until that point you kind of have to assume the facts as written.

What almost certainly is not true is that the whole story is being presented. And that goes for the husband, too.


----------



## Maxo

marduk said:


> I'll be honest -- I'm still relatively convinced she will admit that she had sex with this guy, and that there were other flirtations or something before the 'break.'
> 
> I just think it will take time to admit that, or I could be totally wrong. Either way it will come out in the wash and until that point you kind of have to assume the facts as written.
> 
> What almost certainly is not true is that the whole story is being presented. And that goes for the husband, too.


The husband is not here to present his story and I would advise him no to, as some folks have gone as far as to claim that it is 99% certain he has or is cheating; that he has a personality disorder, that he is an abuser, and that he probably did something at work to justify the allegation, despite being cleared.
The primary offense this guy is guilty of , in one poster's eyes, is, IMO, being male.


----------



## Marduk

Maxo said:


> The husband is not here to present his story and I would advise him no to, as some folks have gone as far as to claim that it is 99% certain he has or is cheating; that he has a personality disorder, that he is an abuser, and that he probably did something at work to justify the allegation, despite being cleared.
> The primary offense this guy is guilty of , in one poster's eyes, is, IMO, being male.


The last item on his list of stipulations is way out of line and very telling as to the dynamic.

Just as much as her inability or unwillingness to get underneath her decision making.

In fact, I can very well see the two going hand in hand.


----------



## camerashy

drifting on said:


> Per OP who has posted more then once, she does not feel her husband is cheating. Could she be wrong, we all could be, but based on her posts she was initially fond when talking about her husband. Then posts came in that her husband is abusive, her husband has cheated, his thinking not in the norm. I found this to be the most normal, he was just hit with the infidelity bullet, of course he's not normal.
> 
> Prior to infidelity OP has stated she ran away from problems, supported her husband, should have supported her husband more. My biggest problem is that OP has waffled, and I believe @marduk is very astute with his prediction, there is more and that the OP be honest. OP has stated she is being honest, I too think there is much more to this.
> 
> Why waffle if you told the truth? I supported my husband, I lost respect for my husband and thought he was being childish. I should have supported my husband more. So which is it? I think she cheated because she resented her husband, a real man complimented her, she didn't respect her husband.
> 
> How many times, just like my wife did, had the story started one way and then changed. My wife said they went for a walk, then changed to they held hands, then changed to holding hands and hugged, then holding hands, hugged, and then one kiss. Then one make out session, then finally sex. What started out as lunch changed to a six month long affair. I'm not saying OP has done what my wife did, but my wife wasn't the first to lie. OP I'm not saying you are lying, I'm saying there is more, and if you desire the help you came for then you need to be honest. If you have been honest then I will leave your thread, I'm only trying to help.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 @drifting on There's probably a whole lot right now that I'm not seeing. My H won't actually tell me what is on his mind right now, which means I can only say what he had said and the rest is assumption. We do have communication issues, and he doesn't always think before he speaks when he gets angry (and therefore can say some really horrible things) but I don't think he is a bad, or abusive man....and I really don't believe he is cheating. In my personal opinion, I think the allegations made against him were likely because he said something to the woman that she didn't like (because he speaks without thinking first) and probably hurt her pride. She wanted to knock him down a few pegs.



phillybeffandswiss said:


> Let's make sure people understand what may have happened. Drifting sort of kind of addressed it, but it is still off base.
> 
> Just look at all of the posters who have said or implied there MUST be something to the sexual harassment allegation. Now, imagine this behavior at work for for the last few months with, an ongoing investigation. Guess what else? You have to be VERY quiet once you are accused. You can't run around shouting "I am innocent" through the workplace because it is an internal private investigation and they initially protect the accuser; rightly so I might add. The company is covering their ass so, you have zero support at work. Even coworkers are treating you like a pariah for their own career preservation. Also, you have to be 100% careful of everything you say and write. Then imagine you feel your wife isn't giving you support at home. You both communicate poorly and she adds to the problem by becoming an agreeable "yes" woman because she is also confused by your rage "but he says he is innocent." As it gets worse, the wife leaves on a planned work trip which, in his eyes, should have been canceled. They bickered about it before, but "it was already planned." So, work has put him number 2 and now so has his wife. It is determined he is not culpable at all, but like this thread has shown people still give him a sideways look and treat him as a sexual harasser who hasn't been caught. Then it becomes worse because he can't explain his frustration and his wife can't understand why he is still mad months later. Again, he is now labeled negatively in his industry and it isn't like a line cook at McDonald's where no one cares. Certain cases have probably been removed and his workload has most likely changed. His career is probably PERMANENTLY tainted. So, they continue bickering for even more months, he builds further resentment, boom time to go and he needs a break. Then she throws more fuel on the fire with cheating and now he may be done.
> 
> Not right, but I get his actions more than I understand hers. Go research, false accusations are horrible. Many people have had to change positions, move out of state and actually go into other lines of work, for less pay, because of unfounded sexual harassment allegations. Marriages do fail because of false or unfounded sexual harassment allegations alone, without an incident of cheating added to the mix.
> 
> Let me add, since he is a family and divorcee lawyer, I can only IMAGINE how many MC and IC failures he has witnessed come across his desk. I'm not surprised he is jaded at all. Still, I think he needs it, but have fun trying to convince of its merit.


 @phillybeffandswiss I think you are spot on with your assessment. Now how do I fix that?



Maxo said:


> "Toys out of the cot"? Didn't you , also, early on, refer to him as acting like a child.
> I cannot recall how long you two have been together, but, I think you should really go back and see if this is how you really feel he is, in general or if you are being influenced by a person with obvious anti male feelings that is advising you.


 @Maxo We've been together for 3 1/2 years and married for almost 2 of those. And that's a hard question....and the answer to that is very complicated. Because of some stuff that happened in the past, most people in my family/friend circle are very protective of me and have never liked my H because he is "too confronting/intimidating and not sensitive enough" to the things I have been through. So it's not exactly anti-male energies around me, it's anti H energies. The problem is that they still see me as that same person I was a decade ago, which isn't exactly fair to me either. I've done a lot of work to increase my self-confidence and to see myself as an equal partner in relationships. But for the people around me who knew the person I was before the past stuff, it's like they are constantly expecting the "me now" to be more like "me then", which is terribly misguided, as nobody who goes through a traumatic experience comes out seeing the world the same way they did before. There's a whole process where you have to re-wire yourself and evaluate the parts of yourself that got you into that situation in the first place. Yes, my H doesn't think before he opens his mouth, but there are whole elements to our relationship that my circle fail to understand.


----------



## Marduk

What traumatic experience was that?


----------



## Bibi1031

Don't mis quote OP. She said that when she went back home she realized that husband was upset because she had left for a week to a trip that was scheduled in advance. You guys misquoted the part where she asked him if he wanted her to stay and needed her that she would not go on the trip. They were in agreement that she was to go. 

Sheesh folks, I get it that the majority that want to lynch OP are males. How odd is that here on TAM...said tongue in cheek of course. 

If you think OP waffles, just look at her husband; now he says she didn't support him because she left...

You can't win with this fella, and she can't and shouldn't convince any of you that she slept with a guy she did NOT sleep with. Why trickle truth strangers? You TAM WS chasers/lynch mobbers should be ashamed for kicking someone who has come here for help when they are down.

It's ridiculous to not take someone's word as true when they came here of their own volition. Husband will never come and be this open here. Why do you take the side of someone who hasn't even set foot here?

Shouldn't we help the ones that do post here? We are not in a court room, and even in court rooms; no one is acussed of anything until proven guilty.

Or are you defending caveman because he is male?


----------



## camerashy

marduk said:


> What traumatic experience was that?


 @marduk I was almost killed by an ex-partner. It was a very abusive relationship.


----------



## Marduk

Bibi1031 said:


> Don't mis quote OP. She said that when she went back home she realized that husband was upset because she had left for a week to a trip that was scheduled in advance. You guys misquoted the part where she asked him if he wanted her to stay and needed her that she would not go on the trip. They were in agreement that she was to go.
> 
> Sheesh folks, I get it that the majority that want to lynch OP are males. How odd is that here on TAM...said tongue in cheek of course.
> 
> If you think OP waffles, just look at her husband; now he says she didn't support him because she left...
> 
> You can't win with this fella, and she can't and shouldn't convince any of you that she slept with a guy she did NOT sleep with. Why trickle truth strangers? You TAM WS chasers/lynch mobbers should be ashamed for kicking someone who has come here for help when they are down.
> 
> It's ridiculous to not take someone's word as true when they came here of their own volition. Husband will never come and be this open here. Why do you take the side of someone who hasn't even set foot here.
> 
> Shouldn't we help the ones that do post here. We are not in a court room, and even in court rooms; no one is a cussed of an trying until proven guilty.
> 
> Or are you defending caveman because he is male?


Hey, I think the marriage was busted before the break and before the other man.

But people lie/distort/trickle truth all the time. It's human nature to try to make yourself look good and someone else look bad.

It's kinda the default setting with infidelity. The first time the truth comes out, it's rarely the Truth. It's just some of the truth.


----------



## Marduk

camerashy said:


> @marduk I was almost killed by an ex-partner. It was a very abusive relationship.


I'm very sorry about that. That sucks. Wow, that sucks.

And that has left you somewhat insecure as a result?

And your husband hasn't been exactly captain fantastic supporting you with your healing?


----------



## bandit.45

camerashy said:


> @marduk I was almost killed by an ex-partner. It was a very abusive relationship.


I'm sorry you went through that.


----------



## Maxo

marduk said:


> The last item on his list of stipulations is way out of line and very telling as to the dynamic.
> 
> Just as much as her inability or unwillingness to get underneath her decision making.
> 
> In fact, I can very well see the two going hand in hand.


I think you need to take into consideration that when insisting on the last stipulation, this guy was very, very early on in the post discovery phase, a time when clear thinking is rare and pain and anger can, understandably, take over.
Infidelity is said to be the most severe form of emotional abuse by more than one therapist, inflicting severe trauma. IMO, in the aftermath of this, it is understandable that he may make certain proclamations re how future marital decisions will be made, that he, ultimately, will back off on.
This is the crux of "fundamental attribution error" that some folks seem to be overlooking. This is the reaction of someone in the very early stages of having been severely traumatized, yet some folks are viewing him as if this is his typical way of operating.
All BSs need to be wary of this , the "fundamental attribution error" phenomenon, as , even here, where most posters are knowledgeable about the severity of trauma, some still point to early reactive behavior as being representative of a BS's typical behavior.
Imagine how the uninformed, folks who have not been through this view the reactions of a betrayed early on, Many have been indoctrinated by movies, novels, the media etc to believe that infidelity is jusat another minor , spousal offense, like accidentally running over your spouse's golf clubs or something, a little annoying but nothing to get all worked up about.... Then, it happens to them and they understand.(Just look at how camera herself, with absolutely no experience off spousal betrayal, questions the extent of her husn[band anger and feels certain she would not engage in any name calling. Many BSs felt the same way bout themselves until it happened to them((me, I just walked away. No arguing, no name calling...but, my training was such that I knew how to control my feelings. I wanted to say any number of things)


----------



## Maxo

Bibi1031 said:


> Don't mis quote OP. She said that when she went back home she realized that husband was upset because she had left for a week to a trip that was scheduled in advance. You guys misquoted the part where she asked him if he wanted her to stay and needed her that she would not go on the trip. They were in agreement that she was to go.
> 
> Sheesh folks, I get it that the majority that want to lynch OP are males. How odd is that here on TAM...said tongue in cheek of course.
> 
> If you think OP waffles, just look at her husband; now he says she didn't support him because she left...
> 
> You can't win with this fella, and she can't and shouldn't convince any of you that she slept with a guy she did NOT sleep with. Why trickle truth strangers? You TAM WS chasers/lynch mobbers should be ashamed for kicking someone who has come here for help when they are down.
> 
> It's ridiculous to not take someone's word as true when they came here of their own volition. Husband will never come and be this open here. Why do you take the side of someone who hasn't even set foot here?
> 
> Shouldn't we help the ones that do post here? We are not in a court room, and even in court rooms; no one is acussed of anything until proven guilty.
> 
> Or are you defending caveman because he is male?


I think you should consult your Ouija board and see if Andrea Dworkin can weigh in on this.


----------



## camerashy

marduk said:


> I'm very sorry about that. That sucks. Wow, that sucks.
> 
> And that has left you somewhat insecure as a result?
> 
> And your husband hasn't been exactly captain fantastic supporting you with your healing?


 @marduk I was a mess for about 3-4 years. I was surviving, not living. My own family would have to text me before they came to my house otherwise I would have a panic attack when I heard a car pull into the drive, things like that. I'm 100% more confident than I was back then. But because a lot of the abuse was psychological/verbal I still have a few triggers (things like game playing, threats, name calling). I just take all that stuff very seriously, and I tell my H "don't say things you don't mean, cause I'm going to act on it." He doesn't always "get it" which is hard, considering he deals with women who are victims of DV on a regular basis.


----------



## Marduk

camerashy said:


> @marduk I was a mess for about 3-4 years. I was surviving, not living. My own family would have to text me before they came to my house otherwise I would have a panic attack when I heard a car pull into the drive, things like that. I'm 100% more confident than I was back then. But because a lot of the abuse was psychological/verbal I still have a few triggers (things like game playing, threats, name calling). I just take all that stuff very seriously, and I tell my H "don't say things you don't mean, cause I'm going to act on it." He doesn't always "get it" which is hard, considering he deals with women who are victims of DV on a regular basis.


You need to leave this man. 

You need to connect the dots with why you did what you did with the random guy. 

You need to do this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## karole

camerashy said:


> @marduk I was a mess for about 3-4 years. I was surviving, not living. My own family would have to text me before they came to my house otherwise I would have a panic attack when I heard a car pull into the drive, things like that. I'm 100% more confident than I was back then. But because a lot of the abuse was psychological/verbal I still have a few triggers (things like game playing, threats, name calling). I just take all that stuff very seriously, and I tell my H "don't say things you don't mean, cause I'm going to act on it." He doesn't always "get it" which is hard, considering he deals with women who are victims of DV on a regular basis.


If he handles DV cases and treats you like you say, when he knows what you've been through, I say divorce him!! You deserve better.


----------



## Bibi1031

marduk said:


> .
> 
> But people lie/distort/trickle truth all the time. It's human nature to try to make yourself look good and someone else look bad.
> 
> h.


She came here stating that she cheated! She also has never denied that what she did was detrimental to her marriage. She feels that if her marriage ends its totally her fault. 

This is not true! He is no innocent little dove here. He is a horrible choice for a mate.


----------



## Maxo

I was referring to the anti male advisor here on this board, camera, not your friends or family.
You have indicated you do not feel he is abusive nor a cheater, yet that is ignored.
Look at her terminology " Apeshyte"" Caveman" and the ridiculous advice that in this day and age it is normal, post a fight and a request for a break, for a married person to console herself with a hookup. That type of morality and reasoning is pretty low, IMO. This is a person with an intense dislike of males.
You know your husband, You know if his behavior is, normally, out of line. If it is, then see a counselor for advice.
Of course it is possible that he is disordered or abusive. I do not know and, clearly, the poster advising you that she is 99% certain he has cheated and the she can diagnose him via the internet is in no position to know any of that, as well.


----------



## Bibi1031

karole said:


> If he handles DV cases and treats you like you say, when he knows what you've been through, I say divorce him!! You deserve better.


That was something most of us have harped about since the very beginning. Now divorce lawyers should know better than to dismiss therapy. Most courts require parents to attend some type of counseling in order not to use children as pawns and Co-parent amicably. He should blame the angry parties involved for therapy not working, and not the other way around. 

Heck, his wife is a prime example that therapy helps; but he is too stubborn and set in his false beliefs that he dismisses it.

Camerashy even stated at the beginning that she didn't want to lean on her family for support as they don't particularly care for husband.


----------



## alte Dame

Can I ask where you are from, OP? Your language has elements of various dialect areas.


----------



## drifter777

camerashy said:


> @Rubix Cubed _*My husband has anger issues, holds all the cards in our relationship and I'm ****ing miserable. So instead of confronting the issues like a normal person, I cheated on him because we have no idea how to communicate with each other.
> 
> I think that about sums it up.*_


I figured your husband was going to come back home and try to work things out but now I'm not so sure. Plus, I don't think you want to be married to him. What you posted above shows you have a lot of anger and resentment toward him.

You haven't found what you are looking for in a husband so maybe it is time to end it once and for all.


----------



## camerashy

marduk said:


> You need to leave this man.
> 
> You need to connect the dots with why you did what you did with the random guy.
> 
> You need to do this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





karole said:


> If he handles DV cases and treats you like you say, when he knows what you've been through, I say divorce him!! You deserve better.


 @marduk @karole I don't want to start again.


----------



## camerashy

alte Dame said:


> Can I ask where you are from, OP? Your language has elements of various dialect areas.


 @alte Dame Originally from New Zealand, but living in the UK. Wait until you hear my acksint lol


----------



## Marduk

camerashy said:


> @marduk @karole I don't want to start again.


You very likely have to, I'm afraid.

This whole thing stinks and you don't deserve it. There's a reason your family doesn't like this guy. There's a reason he knew about your past and then forced a break. There's a reason he didn't come home. Because it would hurt you.

And there's a reason why you did what you did, too. It could be just needing someone (insecurity). It could be you have boundary issues because of the trauma. I'm not sure. I'm no shrink.

And you're not going to get clear of any of that inside of this mess. Go home to your family. Get some help. Start again.

Don't date for a long time. Get strong.


----------



## *Deidre*

Maxo said:


> It would be irresponsible to assume there is a third person in the marriage at this point. And, there are no studies that I am aware of that support the contention that 99% of all couples where a separation has been requested have cheating involved. That is pure exaggeration and fiction, to boot.


Irresponsible also to bury one's head. Sometimes, the writing is on the wall, but you have to want to read it.


----------



## farsidejunky

marduk said:


> Some part of you wanted to.
> 
> Getting at that reason is going to help you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Likely resentment.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## MattMatt

camerashy said:


> @Aron4452 I don't think he would react the way he is if he was guilty of doing something also. I have never suspected it, anyway. I more likely believe that his inconsistencies are stress related.


Unfortunately that is how some cheaters react. They bluster and get nasty in order to cope with their own guilt.


----------



## just got it 55

camerashy said:


> @Rubix Cubed My husband has anger issues, holds all the cards in our relationship and I'm ****ing miserable. So instead of confronting the issues like a normal person, I cheated on him because we have no idea how to communicate with each other.
> 
> I think that about sums it up.


Cam are you saying it was a conscious act premeditated ?

55


----------



## MattMatt

drifting on said:


> Per OP who has posted more then once, she does not feel her husband is cheating. Could she be wrong, we all could be, but based on her posts she was initially fond when talking about her husband. Then posts came in that her husband is abusive, her husband has cheated, his thinking not in the norm. I found this to be the most normal, he was just hit with the infidelity bullet, of course he's not normal.
> 
> Prior to infidelity OP has stated she ran away from problems, supported her husband, should have supported her husband more. My biggest problem is that OP has waffled, and I believe @marduk is very astute with his prediction, there is more and that the OP be honest. OP has stated she is being honest, I too think there is much more to this.
> 
> Why waffle if you told the truth? I supported my husband, I lost respect for my husband and thought he was being childish. I should have supported my husband more. So which is it? I think she cheated because she resented her husband, a real man complimented her, she didn't respect her husband.
> 
> How many times, just like my wife did, had the story started one way and then changed. My wife said they went for a walk, then changed to they held hands, then changed to holding hands and hugged, then holding hands, hugged, and then one kiss. Then one make out session, then finally sex. What started out as lunch changed to a six month long affair. I'm not saying OP has done what my wife did, but my wife wasn't the first to lie. OP I'm not saying you are lying, I'm saying there is more, and if you desire the help you came for then you need to be honest. If you have been honest then I will leave your thread, I'm only trying to help.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Her husband is a lawyer. Lawyers are trained to twist what others say. How so? Like this:-

Husband: "Wife, that vile woman at work, Mrs Snerdly? She has accused me of sending her inappropriate emails!"
Wife: "That's horrible! Why would she do that?"
Husband: "Are you doubting me?"
Wife: "What? No, of course not! I just can't figure out why she would make up lies about you?"
Husband: "I do not think you are supporting me enough on this!"
Wife: "I'm not? What? Oh, sorry if I wasn't supporting you enough, I..."
Husband: "So! You admit you weren't supporting me? That's damn typical of you! I think you should leave!"
Wife: :wtf:

This is not what happened (How would I know? I wasn't there!) but it is indicative of how someone could twist a situation to make support look like non-support.


----------



## MattMatt

just got it 55 said:


> Cam are you saying it was a conscious act premeditated ?
> 
> 55


My RA was not a conscious act, premeditated. But looking back on it, with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, I think it was probably a conscious act and premeditated, but that I hid it from myself so awfully well that I had no idea that I was going to end up in bed naked with a woman who wasn't my wife.


----------



## NoChoice

OP,
I sincerely hope you realize that you are on a public forum, with opinions that run the gamut. Please do not base a decision as important as ending your relationship on what you read here. You need to approach your H and tell him that you two need your day in court before judgement is determined. Let a qualified, competent counselor be your judge and jury but I implore you not to act solely on the words written in this thread.

Although well intentioned for the most part and some being remarkably astute, they are still speculative assessments made without sufficient knowledge specific to your situation. If you sincerely want to save the marriage it may require more effort than you realize, or than you can muster.


----------



## donny64

marduk said:


> Ya Donny the friend is toxic. Maybe even dangerous.
> 
> She wanted a wingman while trolling for men.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Have been on the chitty end of that deal myself....as you're well aware. Toxic friends are no friends at all when they assist / encourage that kind of very regretful behavior.


----------



## MattMatt

NoChoice said:


> OP,
> I sincerely hope you realize that you are on a public forum, with opinions that run the gamut. Please do not base a decision as important as ending your relationship on what you read here. You need to approach your H and tell him that you two need your day in court before judgement is determined. Let a qualified, competent counselor be your judge and jury but I implore you not to act solely on the words written in this thread.
> 
> Although well intentioned for the most part and some being remarkably astute, they are still speculative assessments made without sufficient knowledge specific to your situation. If you sincerely want to save the marriage it may require more effort than you realize, or than you can muster.


Counsellors are NEVER judge and jury. They aren't allowed to be!

They cannot tell you what to do they can only point out various options.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Maxo

MattMatt said:


> Her husband is a lawyer. Lawyers are trained to twist what others say. How so? Like this:-
> 
> Husband: "Wife, that vile woman at work, Mrs Snerdly? She has accused me of sending her inappropriate emails!"
> Wife: "That's horrible! Why would she do that?"
> Husband: "Are you doubting me?"
> Wife: "What? No, of course not! I just can't figure out why she would make up lies about you?"
> Husband: "I do not think you are supporting me enough on this!"
> Wife: "I'm not? What? Oh, sorry if I wasn't supporting you enough, I..."
> Husband: "So! You admit you weren't supporting me? That's damn typical of you! I think you should leave!"
> Wife: :wtf:
> 
> This is not what happened (How would I know? I wasn't there!) but it is indicative of how someone could twist a situation to make support look like non-support.


That is untrue. Lawyers that do this have little success and have their asses handed to them.


----------



## Maxo

MattMatt said:


> My RA was not a conscious act, premeditated. But looking back on it, with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, I think it was probably a conscious act and premeditated, but that I hid it from myself so awfully well that I had no idea that I was going to end up in bed naked with a woman who wasn't my wife.


Aliens abducted you and put you there?


----------



## Maxo

MattMatt said:


> Counsellors are NEVER judge and jury. They aren't allowed to be!
> 
> They cannot tell you what to do they can only point out various options.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



In this thread that is not true.


----------



## Maxo

camerashy said:


> @marduk @karole I don't want to start again.


Then ignore the irresponsible diagnosis and get professional help from someone that has a better perspective than the one you are getting over the internet. Find someone objective who is not a misandrist.


----------



## drifting on

MattMatt said:


> Her husband is a lawyer. Lawyers are trained to twist what others say. How so? Like this:-
> 
> Husband: "Wife, that vile woman at work, Mrs Snerdly? She has accused me of sending her inappropriate emails!"
> Wife: "That's horrible! Why would she do that?"
> Husband: "Are you doubting me?"
> Wife: "What? No, of course not! I just can't figure out why she would make up lies about you?"
> Husband: "I do not think you are supporting me enough on this!"
> Wife: "I'm not? What? Oh, sorry if I wasn't supporting you enough, I..."
> Husband: "So! You admit you weren't supporting me? That's damn typical of you! I think you should leave!"
> Wife: :wtf:
> 
> This is not what happened (How would I know? I wasn't there!) but it is indicative of how someone could twist a situation to make support look like non-support.




@MattMatt and @bibi

I never said the husband said she didn't support her husband, OP stated she didn't support her husband. I don't know if her husband twisted her words or not. OP has stated in different posts she should have supported her husband more, then came back saying she did support her husband, then came back to say she didn't support him and thought he was childish therefore losing respect for her husband. How did or even could he twist her words? These are OP's words, this is why I say she waffles, going back and forth with I supported and no I didn't support my husband. During the work investigation though she said he was childish with how he handled it and that OP lost respect for him. Then OP goes to a bar with a friend and cheats. Friend doesn't help even to just say what are you doing. Then friend says don't tell him. I see she has a huge resentment for her husband and is not remorseful. 

At the end of the day many other posters are correct, divorce. You can't reconcile with someone who isn't remorseful. You can't reconcile with a control person, however everyone sees his last stipulation as controlling. I see it as OP has just made a terrible decision to cheat and therefore he will now make all decisions regarding the marriage. After my wife's affair she had one choice, marriage or divorce, so now I'll be labeled a control freak too? No, I made the decisions for me and the marriage, my wife lost that right the minute she cheated, but OP's husband is a control freak because his wife can't make a good choice. OP has the same choice my wife had, marriage or divorce, what's your choice? 

The other part that bothers me is she came here speaking fondly of her husband, abuse got thrown out and all of a sudden her husband is a terrible mate. OP now says how controlling he is, he makes all the decisions, did you ever think maybe HE has had to? OP says she runs from things, did she run from things and FORCE her husband to make the decision? Nobody has even brought this up, but abuse was thrown out pretty quickly, don't you think? Then when she does cheat it's exactly what she denied her husband, so who is really cunning here? 

I have kept my mind as open as possible on this situation, but her husband has been tried, convicted, and punishment being thought out on this thread. @bibi you said innocent until proven guilty, is that how you acted here? Is that what your posts represent? You are screaming this guy is guilty, based on OP's posts only, are you still presuming he is innocent before he can even utter a word?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Maxo

Look, the husband is male. Of course he is an abusive control freak . Bibi spotted it right away diagnosing him with a personality disorder ( she works with children and at a women' shelter,so,of course she can spot this). 
Even more impressive is how she knew with certainty that he was cheating and how she knows that 99 percent of spouses asking for a separation are cheaters.
Throw in that she feels it is routine for folks to cheat after a fight and you have one incredibly perceptive therapist.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

> most people in my family/friend circle are very protective of me *and have never liked my H because he is "too confronting/intimidating and not sensitive enough"* to the things I have been through.


Yep, now we know why this was added to the list and it makes complete sense.


----------



## NoChoice

MattMatt said:


> Counsellors are NEVER judge and jury. They aren't allowed to be!
> 
> They cannot tell you what to do they can only point out various options.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Agreed, but to individuals whose minds are as easily swayed as OP's seems to be I would certainly rather her follow the "advice" of a competent, qualified, WELL INFORMED counselor than some anonymous, possibly prejudiced, writings on the internet. IMO, better they determine her fate than we.


----------



## camerashy

NoChoice said:


> OP,
> I sincerely hope you realize that you are on a public forum, with opinions that run the gamut. Please do not base a decision as important as ending your relationship on what you read here. You need to approach your H and tell him that you two need your day in court before judgement is determined. Let a qualified, competent counselor be your judge and jury but I implore you not to act solely on the words written in this thread.
> 
> Although well intentioned for the most part and some being remarkably astute, they are still speculative assessments made without sufficient knowledge specific to your situation. If you sincerely want to save the marriage it may require more effort than you realize, or than you can muster.





NoChoice said:


> Agreed, but to individuals whose minds are as easily swayed as OP's seems to be I would certainly rather her follow the "advice" of a competent, qualified, WELL INFORMED counselor than some anonymous, possibly prejudiced, writings on the internet. IMO, better they determine her fate than we.





Maxo said:


> Look, the husband is male. Of course he is an abusive control freak . Bibi spotted it right away diagnosing him with a personality disorder ( she works with children and at a women' shelter,so,of course she can spot this).
> Even more impressive is how she knew with certainty that he was cheating and how she knows that 99 percent of spouses asking for a separation are cheaters.
> Throw in that she feels it is routine for folks to cheat after a fight and you have one incredibly perceptive therapist.


 @NoChoice @Maxo I understand that the opinions/advice posted in this thread are just that - opinions and advice based upon personal beliefs, knowledge, and experience. And I am also aware that everyone is only getting my side of the story...I am doing my best to present my situation as openly and honestly as possible because I do genuinely want help/advice. I just ask that if anyone feels there are inconsistencies in things that I have said - that they ask for clarification.


----------



## camerashy

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Yep, now we know why this was added to the list and it makes complete sense.


 @phillybeffandswiss Added to the list?


----------



## RWB

MattMatt said:


> Husband: "Wife, that vile woman at work, Mrs Snerdly? She has accused me of sending her inappropriate emails!"
> Wife: "That's horrible! Why would she do that?"
> Husband: "Are you doubting me?"
> Wife: "What? No, of course not! I just can't figure out why she would make up lies about you?"
> Husband: "I do not think you are supporting me enough on this!"
> Wife: "I'm not? What? Oh, sorry if I wasn't supporting you enough, I..."
> Husband: "So! You admit you weren't supporting me? That's damn typical of you! I think you should leave!"
> Wife: :wtf:


_"The Old Deflect and Project"... _


----------



## Be smart

I didnt see you online for a long time @Bibi1031. How are you my Lady ?

I have to agree with your comments. Problems with her Marriage are deeper and she cant do anything about it because her Husband is not willing to change himself. He even refuse Marriage Counseling saying it was pointless and dumb. Sorry to say this but he is dumb.
Marriage is 50-50 and you lose control only in your bed but in her case her Husband wants to call all the shots. 

I know people are going to hate me for saying this,but I would call this Emotional abuse. He is always puting her down and never asking for her opinion or things about their Marriage. Communication between them is really bad. This is/was going on for a long time. I try to put myself in situation like this and to be honest I would be mad or crazy. You start asking yourself silly questions and you start losing respect for yourself.

You can have a good,better Marriage @camerashy,but your Husband really needs to change and see things from your point of view. 

Best wishes to both of you and I hope you can make it.

Stay strong.


----------



## Marduk

farsidejunky said:


> Likely resentment.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Or a fear of abandonment. If you're worried that the branch you're on isn't going to hold you up, you better grab a second branch just in case.


----------



## Maxo

camerashy said:


> @NoChoice @Maxo I understand that the opinions/advice posted in this thread are just that - opinions and advice based upon personal beliefs, knowledge, and experience. And I am also aware that everyone is only getting my side of the story...I am doing my best to present my situation as openly and honestly as possible because I do genuinely want help/advice. I just ask that if anyone feels there are inconsistencies in things that I have said - that they ask for clarification.


Well, do you feel your husband is an abusive NPD? Usually, because these folks avoid the scrutiny of counseling, the spouse is, despite a lack of expertise, in the best position to make the assessment, especially since if you do get one to counseling, they are adept at masking and manipulating.
When I first started describing my XW's behaviors to both my therapist and my lawyer ( also a former therapist) they told me to look in the Cluster B's.
I read and went on boards etc and gathered info and opinions. My descriptions of my XW's behaviors were very detailed, not just my feeling, actual descriptions of events and things she would do and say. Very specific.
So, assuming you will not get your husband to counseling, start reading up on NPD, BPD and ASPD. 
I would not rule out a disorder, but, certainly, no one can make this diagnosis over the internet. MY therapist and my lawyer got very detailed, specific incidents to look at. And, the infidelity, although a huge factor among the criteria, was accompanied by a lot of weird, abusive behavior over a long period of time.
This is not a gender deal. Both genders, just as in domestic violence, are represented among the disorders equally. BPD is said t be more common among women and the others among men, but, many experts feel that lumping women into the BPD category vs one of the others, is due to societal discomfort with seeing that women can be every bit as mean and nasty and abusive as men. BPD is thought to be the lesser of the abusive disorder by some that do this.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

camerashy said:


> @phillybeffandswiss Added to the list?


He gave you a list of demands. One was to not inform family. So, of course, the abuse allegations went into overdrive because this can be a control tactic of an abuser. It is ALSO how people feel when they get little to no support or outright accusations from their in-laws. Of course, this doesn't fit the angry, abusive, word twisting , lawyer Ogre fantasy being created. So, no one suggested he and your family do not get along.

Also, I disagree with his last number being out of line. He's angry and wants control of his life and marriage back. You screwed up so, the easy one to control is the marriage. Now, if he forces you to meet these demands and makes you do weird crap, it is out of line.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

I hate abuse and I am sorry you went through this traumatic experience. 

For reconciliation to work, some will say the cheater needs to do the heavy lifting aka most of the work. While I agree, you do not compromise your own morals or accept any wrong or outlandish demands. 

For this to work you both need counseling period. 
The internet can't help you.
I can't help you .
Your family can't help you. 
Books can't help you.

All we can do is offer advice or bicker while demonizing each other. LOL.

You were abused and most likely still have issues and triggers you fully do not understand. Drifting-on understands, but I think others do not. Your husband most likely endured a different type of abuse. No, I am not equating the two at all. You were almost killed, they are not in the same realm. Still, he did deal with a form of psychological abuse. I am basing this on your own words, comments and his new actions which you have stated didn't occur. 

This investigation went on for MONTHS. So, for me, it was taken seriously. Most allegations are quickly outed as legit or false. MONTHS!!! The interviewed multiple people who were told to keep their mouths shut, but most likely did not. They forensically checked all of his correspondence to anyone. Who knows, maybe he did cheat. I do not know. What I do know is EVERY EMAIL, every little joke, flirt, compliment, comment, diatribe and text was analyzed and over analyzed under guilty until proven innocent bias. Then another person did the same thing. Then another and another depending on the size of their HR. Then it was passed up to the heads who made a final decision. Now take a second and imagine how many hands have passed over this information and how many timed he had to repeats a story. Then imagine if he remembers more or there is a slight change. The process starts all over again. HR is ugly and while it needs to exist, some people use it as a weapon.

Also, this is company garbage, you are not protected by the LAWS OF YOUR STATE, until you go into civil court. As a lawyer, he knows it is futile to sue the company because not only is it rare to win these cases, his reputation would be further besmirched. On a side note, everyone scoffed and laughed when Tom Brady destroyed his phone. I would have done the same thing and all those who hate and labeled me be hanged. Everything he ever sent would be national news. We see how leaks go in this world. No, your husband is not Tom Brady, but his business is all over the company or firm where he works. I hope you realize any texts or emails he sent you from his work or on a company phone were scrutinized as well? So, if there were any problems in your marriage or simple things like kissy kissy boo boo flirting it is all over the company as well. 

If you do decide to follow the list he gave you and reconcile make your own demand. "I will follow your list IF and ONLY if you attend counseling and make a true effort. If I feel you are lacking, I will file for divorce and we will fight for EVERYTHING." Do not budge, even though you cheated. Cheating is an entirely different issue and shouldn't trump bad marriage communication at all.

Sorry for the mini-rant. I despise some of the things I saw in HR investigations. I feel sometimes it can honestly be very abusive to the people being investigated. I used to recommend people get counseling when I worked inside HR.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

drifting on said:


> @MattMatt and @bibi
> 
> I never said the husband said she didn't support her husband, OP stated she didn't support her husband. I don't know if her husband twisted her words or not. OP has stated in different posts she should have supported her husband more, then came back saying she did support her husband, then came back to say she didn't support him and thought he was childish therefore losing respect for her husband. How did or even could he twist her words? These are OP's words, this is why I say she waffles, going back and forth with I supported and no I didn't support my husband. During the work investigation though she said he was childish with how he handled it and that OP lost respect for him. Then OP goes to a bar with a friend and cheats. Friend doesn't help even to just say what are you doing. Then friend says don't tell him. I see she has a huge resentment for her husband and is not remorseful.
> 
> At the end of the day many other posters are correct, divorce. You can't reconcile with someone who isn't remorseful. You can't reconcile with a control person, however everyone sees his last stipulation as controlling. I see it as OP has just made a terrible decision to cheat and therefore he will now make all decisions regarding the marriage. After my wife's affair she had one choice, marriage or divorce, so now I'll be labeled a control freak too? No, I made the decisions for me and the marriage, my wife lost that right the minute she cheated, but OP's husband is a control freak because his wife can't make a good choice. OP has the same choice my wife had, marriage or divorce, what's your choice?
> 
> The other part that bothers me is she came here speaking fondly of her husband, abuse got thrown out and all of a sudden her husband is a terrible mate. OP now says how controlling he is, he makes all the decisions, did you ever think maybe HE has had to? OP says she runs from things, did she run from things and FORCE her husband to make the decision? Nobody has even brought this up, but abuse was thrown out pretty quickly, don't you think? Then when she does cheat it's exactly what she denied her husband, so who is really cunning here?
> 
> I have kept my mind as open as possible on this situation, but her husband has been tried, convicted, and punishment being thought out on this thread. @bibi you said innocent until proven guilty, is that how you acted here? Is that what your posts represent? You are screaming this guy is guilty, based on OP's posts only, are you still presuming he is innocent before he can even utter a word?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



What, kicking your spouse out of the home and telling her they are on a break is not childish and immature? Posters talk about the detrimental effects of infidelity on the BS and some on here excuse the abusive behavior because of emotional distress. What is the detrimental effects of being kicked out, told you are on a break, and then emotionally abuse afterwards.

TAM puts BS way too much on a pedestal. If someone calls you names of course you are going to get angry and defensive especially when the other partner has issues of their own and was the catalyst of this whole scenario occurring. The fact that he does not see his own shiet in all of this is galling.

This is absurd, he kicks her out and leaves her without shelter and shows no obligation towards her and her well-being while she is suppose to be at his whims. Excuse me, if he can disengage and cut off the responsibility of a husband while demand she uphold her vows as a wife, that is being a hypocrite. So the only person that can walk away from their vows is himself.

Btw, have you thought of the possibility that she might be protective of him as well as she loves him and will minimize his shiet when others place it under a microscope. Heck, LosingHim is a perfect example of that no matter how much she complains. How he was unwilling to cut ties with the ex and her family, how he was verbally abusive because he had to do laundry, how he keeps getting caught lying. But, she would always protect him as well as she has the inability to detach. Parents can complain all they want about their own children but when a stranger does it, they are highly protective.

Fact is, he is an abuser no matter how much the OP does not want to admit it and be in denial about it.

Here is another petpeeve, posters that minimize BS action because they are BS. In another thread, posters call the OP worse than her abusive alcholic husband that also abuse the children and pets. That is right, the child abuser is just as terrible as the WS for cheating. Posters minimize what role the BS has on in this case while being okay with the lack of impulse control on his own end. Some feel it is okay for her not to express her own pain as she must cater to his first. She is not suppose to feel hurt and angry that he stop being a husband.

Depending on circumstance and context,I never just side with a BS or a WS. And posters get angry and have outbursts and attack WS for minimizing when they themselves do the exact same thing by minimizing the detrimental effects of what BS do to the well-being of their own partner. He literally abandoned her and she was suppose to wait on the curb for his holier than thou beneficence to give her the right to be her husband again. Funny how he is not even letting her have her own boundaries like not being kick out. Plus, he feels like MC and all is crap so what does that speak about himself. He wants her to follow his rules and make demands. Where in his own part does he work on himself.


----------



## drifting on

Mr.Fisty said:


> What, kicking your spouse out of the home and telling her they are on a break is not childish and immature? Posters talk about the detrimental effects of infidelity on the BS and some on here excuse the abusive behavior because of emotional distress. What is the detrimental effects of being kicked out, told you are on a break, and then emotionally abuse afterwards.
> 
> TAM puts BS way too much on a pedestal. If someone calls you names of course you are going to get angry and defensive especially when the other partner has issues of their own and was the catalyst of this whole scenario occurring. The fact that he does not see his own shiet in all of this is galling.
> 
> This is absurd, he kicks her out and leaves her without shelter and shows no obligation towards her and her well-being while she is suppose to be at his whims. Excuse me, if he can disengage and cut off the responsibility of a husband while demand she uphold her vows as a wife, that is being a hypocrite. So the only person that can walk away from their vows is himself.
> 
> Btw, have you thought of the possibility that she might be protective of him as well as she loves him and will minimize his shiet when others place it under a microscope. Heck, LosingHim is a perfect example of that no matter how much she complains. How he was unwilling to cut ties with the ex and her family, how he was verbally abusive because he had to do laundry, how he keeps getting caught lying. But, she would always protect him as well as she has the inability to detach. Parents can complain all they want about their own children but when a stranger does it, they are highly protective.
> 
> Fact is, he is an abuser no matter how much the OP does not want to admit it and be in denial about it.
> 
> Here is another petpeeve, posters that minimize BS action because they are BS. In another thread, posters call the OP worse than her abusive alcholic husband that also abuse the children and pets. That is right, the child abuser is just as terrible as the WS for cheating. Posters minimize what role the BS has on in this case while being okay with the lack of impulse control on his own end. Some feel it is okay for her not to express her own pain as she must cater to his first. She is not suppose to feel hurt and angry that he stop being a husband.
> 
> Depending on circumstance and context,I never just side with a BS or a WS. And posters get angry and have outbursts and attack WS for minimizing when they themselves do the exact same thing by minimizing the detrimental effects of what BS do to the well-being of their own partner. He literally abandoned her and she was suppose to wait on the curb for his holier than thou beneficence to give her the right to be her husband again. Funny how he is not even letting her have her own boundaries like not being kick out. Plus, he feels like MC and all is crap so what does that speak about himself. He wants her to follow his rules and make demands. Where in his own part does he work on himself.




To be completely honest here, neither appear to be marriage material. May sound harsh, but running from decisions is childish and immature. A certain poster basically condemned this man off one side of the story, I merely presented possible reasons for his actions. I don't agree with how he has handled this or how OP is handling this. Both are broken and conflict avoidant. What were her actions before the cheating took place? Did she run away abandoning him? Could he have possibly felt alone and that she wasn't a spouse? Could he think that she wasn't putting effort into the marriage and riding his coat tails so to speak? Could he have been tired of all her running away that he kicked her out as an act of tough love? 

Fact is, you nor I know these answers, probably never will, but some here jumped all over him as abusive, childish, immature, and whatever else. Read my posts, I was fair in what I wrote. OP, I will leave your thread as it appears I am doing more harm then good.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## drifting on

phillybeffandswiss said:


> I hate abuse and I am sorry you went through this traumatic experience.
> 
> For reconciliation to work, some will say the cheater needs to do the heavy lifting aka most of the work. While I agree, you do not compromise your own morals or accept any wrong or outlandish demands.
> 
> For this to work you both need counseling period.
> The internet can't help you.
> I can't help you .
> Your family can't help you.
> Books can't help you.
> 
> All we can do is offer advice or bicker while demonizing each other. LOL.
> 
> You were abused and most likely still have issues and triggers you fully do not understand. Drifting-on understands, but I think others do not. Your husband most likely endured a different type of abuse. No, I am not equating the two at all. You were almost killed, they are not in the same realm. Still, he did deal with a form of psychological abuse. I am basing this on your own words, comments and his new actions which you have stated didn't occur.
> 
> This investigation went on for MONTHS. So, for me, it was taken seriously. Most allegations are quickly outed as legit or false. MONTHS!!! The interviewed multiple people who were told to keep their mouths shut, but most likely did not. They forensically checked all of his correspondence to anyone. Who knows, maybe he did cheat. I do not know. What I do know is EVERY EMAIL, every little joke, flirt, compliment, comment, diatribe and text was analyzed and over analyzed under guilty until proven innocent bias. Then another person did the same thing. Then another and another depending on the size of their HR. Then it was passed up to the heads who made a final decision. Now take a second and imagine how many hands have passed over this information and how many timed he had to repeats a story. Then imagine if he remembers more or there is a slight change. The process starts all over again. HR is ugly and while it needs to exist, some people use it as a weapon.
> 
> Also, this is company garbage, you are not protected by the LAWS OF YOUR STATE, until you go into civil court. As a lawyer, he knows it is futile to sue the company because not only is it rare to win these cases, his reputation would be further besmirched. On a side note, everyone scoffed and laughed when Tom Brady destroyed his phone. I would have done the same thing and all those who hate and labeled me be hanged. Everything he ever sent would be national news. We see how leaks go in this world. No, your husband is not Tom Brady, but his business is all over the company or firm where he works. I hope you realize any texts or emails he sent you from his work or on a company phone were scrutinized as well? So, if there were any problems in your marriage or simple things like kissy kissy boo boo flirting it is all over the company as well.
> 
> If you do decide to follow the list he gave you and reconcile make your own demand. "I will follow your list IF and ONLY if you attend counseling and make a true effort. If I feel you are lacking, I will file for divorce and we will fight for EVERYTHING." Do not budge, even though you cheated. Cheating is an entirely different issue and shouldn't trump bad marriage communication at all.
> 
> Sorry for the mini-rant. I despise some of the things I saw in HR investigations. I feel sometimes it can honestly be very abusive to the people being investigated. I used to recommend people get counseling when I worked inside HR.




Completely accurate. Almost as bad as a tax audit, except your personal texts, notes, are viewed by everyone. I've been investigated, it can be excruciating and mentally exhausting. Spot on with this post.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Maxo

phillybeffandswiss said:


> He gave you a list of demands. One was to not inform family. So, of course, the abuse allegations went into overdrive because this can be a control tactic of an abuser. It is ALSO how people feel when they get little to no support or outright accusations from their in-laws. Of course, this doesn't fit the angry, abusive, word twisting , lawyer Ogre fantasy being created. So, no one suggested he and your family do not get along.
> 
> Also, I disagree with his last number being out of line. He's angry and wants control of his life and marriage back. You screwed up so, the easy one to control is the marriage. Now, if he forces you to meet these demands and makes you do weird crap, it is out of line.


From the stories I have read, it is not uncommon for a BS to want no one to know,due to the humiliation. Many people blame the BS.


----------



## Maxo

Mr.Fisty said:


> What, kicking your spouse out of the home and telling her they are on a break is not childish and immature? Posters talk about the detrimental effects of infidelity on the BS and some on here excuse the abusive behavior because of emotional distress. What is the detrimental effects of being kicked out, told you are on a break, and then emotionally abuse afterwards.
> 
> TAM puts BS way too much on a pedestal. If someone calls you names of course you are going to get angry and defensive especially when the other partner has issues of their own and was the catalyst of this whole scenario occurring. The fact that he does not see his own shiet in all of this is galling.
> 
> This is absurd, he kicks her out and leaves her without shelter and shows no obligation towards her and her well-being while she is suppose to be at his whims. Excuse me, if he can disengage and cut off the responsibility of a husband while demand she uphold her vows as a wife, that is being a hypocrite. So the only person that can walk away from their vows is himself.
> 
> Btw, have you thought of the possibility that she might be protective of him as well as she loves him and will minimize his shiet when others place it under a microscope. Heck, LosingHim is a perfect example of that no matter how much she complains. How he was unwilling to cut ties with the ex and her family, how he was verbally abusive because he had to do laundry, how he keeps getting caught lying. But, she would always protect him as well as she has the inability to detach. Parents can complain all they want about their own children but when a stranger does it, they are highly protective.
> 
> Fact is, he is an abuser no matter how much the OP does not want to admit it and be in denial about it.
> 
> Here is another petpeeve, posters that minimize BS action because they are BS. In another thread, posters call the OP worse than her abusive alcholic husband that also abuse the children and pets. That is right, the child abuser is just as terrible as the WS for cheating. Posters minimize what role the BS has on in this case while being okay with the lack of impulse control on his own end. Some feel it is okay for her not to express her own pain as she must cater to his first. She is not suppose to feel hurt and angry that he stop being a husband.
> 
> Depending on circumstance and context,I never just side with a BS or a WS. And posters get angry and have outbursts and attack WS for minimizing when they themselves do the exact same thing by minimizing the detrimental effects of what BS do to the well-being of their own partner. He literally abandoned her and she was suppose to wait on the curb for his holier than thou beneficence to give her the right to be her husband again. Funny how he is not even letting her have her own boundaries like not being kick out. Plus, he feels like MC and all is crap so what does that speak about himself. He wants her to follow his rules and make demands. Where in his own part does he work on himself.[
> 
> /IMO, the above is innacurrate and contains many assumptions and exagerrations,as well as falsehoods.


----------



## MrsAldi

@camerashy you were previously in an abusive relationship, so do you think your husbands anger & outbursts triggers something in you? 

Triggers you into self-protect flight mode. (Him saying you are running away from problems). 
Is he highly confrontational under normal circumstances? 
Like say you guys are having a debate about which shop to buy from?

Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


----------



## Maxo

drifting on said:


> To be completely honest here, neither appear to be marriage material. May sound harsh, but running from decisions is childish and immature. A certain poster basically condemned this man off one side of the story, I merely presented possible reasons for his actions. I don't agree with how he has handled this or how OP is handling this. Both are broken and conflict avoidant. What were her actions before the cheating took place? Did she run away abandoning him? Could he have possibly felt alone and that she wasn't a spouse? Could he think that she wasn't putting effort into the marriage and riding his coat tails so to speak? Could he have been tired of all her running away that he kicked her out as an act of tough love?
> 
> Fact is, you nor I know these answers, probably never will, but some here jumped all over him as abusive, childish, immature, and whatever else. Read my posts, I was fair in what I wrote. OP, I will leave your thread as it appears I am doing more harm then good.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, you are helping,IMO,by pointing out how some posted have ,irresponsibily, jumped to conclusions without enough information.


----------



## Marduk

Maxo said:


> From the stories I have read, it is not uncommon for a BS to want no one to know,due to the humiliation. Many people blame the BS.


Been there, and yes.


----------



## Maxo

camerashy said:


> @alte Dame Originally from New Zealand, but living in the UK. Wait until you hear my acksint lol


Met Frank Nobilo and Michael Campbell at tournaments. Kiwis are great guys,in general. Big Bob Charles fan.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

drifting on said:


> Fact is, you nor I know these answers, probably never will, but some here jumped all over him as abusive, childish, immature, and whatever else. Read my posts, I was fair in what I wrote. OP, I will leave your thread as it appears I am doing more harm then good.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


100%.

OP, I'm trying to help you understand where he may be, so you both can go get help or mutually end this marriage. I don't think as harshly as some. I see nothing that says you shouldn't be married Yet. I see a major crisis which was compounded by another crisis. You both acted immaturely, but we have no FACTS or PROOF either of you have been idiots until this incident. We have a snapshot of your marriage problems, you have not related the entire picture of yourr home life.

There is an elephant in the room and quite a few posters are ignoring it. It's funny because if I went post mining, you (OP) would understand why this thread is so divisive.This has ALL to do with gender and not your affair or his crappy outbursts. If you think really hard, you'll be able to guess why.


----------



## blahfridge

Maxo said:


> From the stories I have read, it is not uncommon for a BS to want no one to know,due to the humiliation. Many people blame the BS.





marduk said:


> Been there, and yes.


Yep. I told literally no one for five years. Of course, it didn't help that my H blamed me for his cheating and a big part of me accepted that blame. :frown2:

Where I would draw the line OP, is his refusal to do IC and MC. He has to take some responsibility for blowing apart the marriage when he kicked you out. He's got some real issues himself that need to be addressed, imo.


----------



## Marduk

blahfridge said:


> Yep. I told literally no one for five years. Of course, it didn't help that my H blamed me for his cheating and a big part of me accepted that blame. :frown2:
> 
> Where I would draw the line OP, is his refusal to do IC and MC. He has to take some responsibility for blowing apart the marriage when he kicked you out. He's got some real issues himself that need to be addressed, imo.


I would never say that she wasn't allowed to tell anyone about her EA.

I did say (my wife has a big mouth with acquaintances) that I'd rather only close friends who were supporters of our marriage know to support us. And that she tell me exactly who knows so I don't feel like an idiot.


----------



## camerashy

drifting on said:


> To be completely honest here, neither appear to be marriage material. May sound harsh, but running from decisions is childish and immature. A certain poster basically condemned this man off one side of the story, I merely presented possible reasons for his actions. I don't agree with how he has handled this or how OP is handling this. Both are broken and conflict avoidant. What were her actions before the cheating took place? Did she run away abandoning him? Could he have possibly felt alone and that she wasn't a spouse? Could he think that she wasn't putting effort into the marriage and riding his coat tails so to speak? Could he have been tired of all her running away that he kicked her out as an act of tough love?
> 
> Fact is, you nor I know these answers, probably never will, but some here jumped all over him as abusive, childish, immature, and whatever else. Read my posts, I was fair in what I wrote. OP, I will leave your thread as it appears I am doing more harm then good.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 @drifting on Well it doesn't harm me to have different perspectives on the situation. All I'm getting from my at home support system is how much of a **** my H is, and that I've done nothing wrong. Imo, that is more harmful. I appreciate and think on every comment that is made is this thread because right now I feel incapable of evaluating things on my own.



Maxo said:


> From the stories I have read, it is not uncommon for a BS to want no one to know,due to the humiliation. Many people blame the BS.


 @Maxo Absolutely. 



Maxo said:


> Mr.Fisty said:
> 
> 
> 
> What, kicking your spouse out of the home and telling her they are on a break is not childish and immature? Posters talk about the detrimental effects of infidelity on the BS and some on here excuse the abusive behavior because of emotional distress. What is the detrimental effects of being kicked out, told you are on a break, and then emotionally abuse afterwards.
> 
> TAM puts BS way too much on a pedestal. If someone calls you names of course you are going to get angry and defensive especially when the other partner has issues of their own and was the catalyst of this whole scenario occurring. The fact that he does not see his own shiet in all of this is galling.
> 
> This is absurd, he kicks her out and leaves her without shelter and shows no obligation towards her and her well-being while she is suppose to be at his whims. Excuse me, if he can disengage and cut off the responsibility of a husband while demand she uphold her vows as a wife, that is being a hypocrite. So the only person that can walk away from their vows is himself.
> 
> Btw, have you thought of the possibility that she might be protective of him as well as she loves him and will minimize his shiet when others place it under a microscope. Heck, LosingHim is a perfect example of that no matter how much she complains. How he was unwilling to cut ties with the ex and her family, how he was verbally abusive because he had to do laundry, how he keeps getting caught lying. But, she would always protect him as well as she has the inability to detach. Parents can complain all they want about their own children but when a stranger does it, they are highly protective.
> 
> Fact is, he is an abuser no matter how much the OP does not want to admit it and be in denial about it.
> 
> Here is another petpeeve, posters that minimize BS action because they are BS. In another thread, posters call the OP worse than her abusive alcholic husband that also abuse the children and pets. That is right, the child abuser is just as terrible as the WS for cheating. Posters minimize what role the BS has on in this case while being okay with the lack of impulse control on his own end. Some feel it is okay for her not to express her own pain as she must cater to his first. She is not suppose to feel hurt and angry that he stop being a husband.
> 
> Depending on circumstance and context,I never just side with a BS or a WS. And posters get angry and have outbursts and attack WS for minimizing when they themselves do the exact same thing by minimizing the detrimental effects of what BS do to the well-being of their own partner. He literally abandoned her and she was suppose to wait on the curb for his holier than thou beneficence to give her the right to be her husband again. Funny how he is not even letting her have her own boundaries like not being kick out. Plus, he feels like MC and all is crap so what does that speak about himself. He wants her to follow his rules and make demands. Where in his own part does he work on himself.[
> 
> /IMO, the above is innacurrate and contains many assumptions and exagerrations,as well as falsehoods.
> 
> 
> 
> @Maxo @Mr.Fisty The one thing I will touch on is that right from my OP, I tried to "hint" at stuff which I probably shouldn't have done. And later when I've expanded on it, the information has come across as an inconsistency. Whether that's minimizing or not, I'm not sure...I think I just came to TAM with a preconceived notion that I wouldn't be believed because at the end of the day, my own deed is the thing that took the situation from bad to worse.
> 
> I know in my own mind that some of my H's behavior is not ok and that is ok with me.
> 
> 
> 
> MrsAldi said:
> 
> 
> 
> @camerashy you were previously in an abusive relationship, so do you think your husbands anger & outbursts triggers something in you?
> 
> Triggers you into self-protect flight mode. (Him saying you are running away from problems).
> Is he highly confrontational under normal circumstances?
> Like say you guys are having a debate about which shop to buy from?
> 
> Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> @MrsAldi I won't deny that there are some occasions that I feel he is being completely ridiculous and it does take me back a little bit. And I do shut myself off at these times, even though I know he won't hurt me. It's not a response that I can control at this period of time, and likely there will always be specific behaviors that trigger that response. Often during those times, I just agree with him to save the argument.
Click to expand...


----------



## Tobyboy

So where do things stand now?
Are you at home? Is he?
Are y'all talking?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Maxo

camerashy said:


> @drifting on Well it doesn't harm me to have different perspectives on the situation. All I'm getting from my at home support system is how much of a **** my H is, and that I've done nothing wrong. Imo, that is more harmful. I appreciate and think on every comment that is made is this thread because right now I feel incapable of evaluating things on my own.
> 
> 
> 
> @Maxo Absolutely.
> 
> 
> 
> Maxo said:
> 
> 
> 
> @Maxo @Mr.Fisty The one thing I will touch on is that right from my OP, I tried to "hint" at stuff which I probably shouldn't have done. And later when I've expanded on it, the information has come across as an inconsistency. Whether that's minimizing or not, I'm not sure...I think I just came to TAM with a preconceived notion that I wouldn't be believed because at the end of the day, my own deed is the thing that took the situation from bad to worse.
> 
> I know in my own mind that some of my H's behavior is not ok and that is ok with me.
> 
> 
> 
> @MrsAldi I won't deny that there are some occasions that I feel he is being completely ridiculous and it does take me back a little bit. And I do shut myself off at these times, even though I know he won't hurt me. It's not a response that I can control at this period of time, and likely there will always be specific behaviors that trigger that response. Often during those times, I just agree with him to save the argument.
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like he is imperfect,a mix of good and not so good qualities,like most ( not me,of course).
Click to expand...


----------



## Maxo

phillybeffandswiss said:


> 100%.
> 
> OP, I'm trying to help you understand where he may be, so you both can go get help or mutually end this marriage. I don't think as harshly as some. I see nothing that says you shouldn't be married Yet. I see a major crisis which was compounded by another crisis. You both acted immaturely, but we have no FACTS or PROOF either of you have been idiots until this incident. We have a snapshot of your marriage problems, you have not related the entire picture of yourr home life.
> 
> There is an elephant in the room and quite a few posters are ignoring it. It's funny because if I went post mining, you (OP) would understand why this thread is so divisive.This has ALL to do with gender and not your affair or his crappy outbursts. If you think really hard, you'll be able to guess why.[/QUOTHow cryptic:nerd:


----------



## Bibi1031

drifting on said:


> @MattMatt and @bibi
> 
> I have kept my mind as open as possible on this situation, but her husband has been tried, convicted, and punishment being thought out on this thread. @bibi you said innocent until proven guilty, is that how you acted here? Is that what your posts represent? You are screaming this guy is guilty, based on OP's posts only, are you still presuming he is innocent before he can even utter a word?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I owe allegiance to the person that seeks help and not anyone else. I don't owe her husband anything. I do think he is one very sick individual. If that to you is me sentencing him, then so be it. 

He is most certainly guilty of being sick, not accepting it and not seeking help. He is also guilty of throwing away his wife when he should know better and use communication instead of caveman tactics that only helped to hammer the last nail on the coffin of this marriage. He is guilty of causing a lot of the mess that transpired with his decision to throw her out! 

Did I think he was cheating, yes. I said that at the very beginning of this thread. As Camerashy kept posting, I saw a better picture of her husband. I still think he may be guilty of infidelity, but I am not quite certain. I am 100% certain he is a sick man though!

I don't know why some keep insisting that OP has been swayed into seeing her husband as abusive. Remember that she is not 5 years old and she can think for herself. I have not read here that she is in any way incompetent. She actually communicates quite well, much better than most. So why question her competence?

Also, remember that she has had time to look back into her marriage and has realized a thing or two about how her marriage truly is. She sees that her husband has tendencies that hinder their relationship. She will more than likely see much more of that as time does its thing and she can see more clearly now that the rose colored glasses have been snatched away from her. 

Why is this seen as waffling? We all have gone back into our pasts and realize things we were not able to see before. Things get clearer now and we understand a little better why certain things happened. And by the way, this is very normal. We all do this. That is how we learn. We go back and seek answers for ourselves. Most of those answers are in our past conversations or experiences with others. Isn't it part of hindsight as well?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

> How cryptic


Actually it is really simple. I am not going to derail this thread with more bull crap, relevant or not. 
Do I believe her husband is perfect? Nope. 
Do I know if he is an abuser? Nope. 
Do I know the truth as some are claiming as fact and proof? Nope. 
Do I believe she left because he may exhibit some signs which trigger her old experiences with abuse? Yes. 
Do I believe she is leaving out much more pertinent information? Sure did and she has just admitted it a few posts ago. 

Nope, I am not even talking about the cheating because it's all the same in my head, PIV or not. I don't parse cheating into degrees, sub degrees and derivatives. Over the sweater boob play is the same level of betrayal, to me, as PIV, kissing or groping.

If she wants to detail he is an abuser she should. It would change NOTHING I have said because it has no bearing on the advice or stories I provided.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

blahfridge said:


> Yep. I told literally no one for five years. Of course, it didn't help that my H blamed me for his cheating and a big part of me accepted that blame. :frown2:
> 
> Where I would draw the line OP, is his refusal to do IC and MC. He has to take some responsibility for blowing apart the marriage when he kicked you out. He's got some real issues himself that need to be addressed, imo.


I am not condoning what she did. She made an unhealthy choice that further compounded the situation to become worse. I do believe he is also culpable as part of the catalyst in this fiasco.

My guess is because of the duress he was under at his work environment, he suppress a lot of emotions that blew up and she was a safe target. Imagine him reacting like that at his job, further placing his career in jeopardy. Also, why assume that he not only wants to let others know that he was cheated on, but what actions he had towards her as well. Look at the negative responses on here and imagine if her friends, family, his friends, and coworkers found out what he did towards her. Lets not just assume it is only because of the cheating. What would it do to his career and public self-image if they found out about his outbursts and verbal assaults.

I personally would not put it above him to control to protect himself. Sounds like he takes no responsibility in this whole thing.

BTW, what the heck did he want from the break?Does it mean that while he wants to, he has little or no obligation as her husband? How about the possibility because of his career and his lack of of an outlet, he wanted to punish someone and punish her by directing his anger and frustrations on her? How was her mental and emotional health after that?
If you remember Mountain runner. I also place some of the responsibility of the affair on her as well. She neglected his physical and emotional needs for years. Before everyone focus he should of made a healthy choice, people excuse her from the same responsibility. Years of rejection would leave a lot of people unhealthy. It is like you neglect your own health at your own risk.

Plus, people were unfair towards him. He was suppose to feel happy that his wife gave him another chance and minimize all those years of pain and rejection. Then, he was suppose to feel only greateful for another chance as if the neglect did not also play an important role . It was also a gift on his own end that he was willing to look past his pain to help her heal. Depending on the circumstance,the WS also gives the gift of forgiveness.


----------



## MrsAldi

@camerashy when you say ridiculous behaviour, is he shouting, slamming things like doors, glasses etc? 
You should be able to disagree with him without fear, you should be able to voice your opinion without fear. 
Keeping quiet & being unable to voice your feelings will only cause resentment down the road in the next few years of marriage. 
Then your attraction to him will fade. 

Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


----------



## Mr.Fisty

camerashy said:


> @drifting on Well it doesn't harm me to have different perspectives on the situation. All I'm getting from my at home support system is how much of a **** my H is, and that I've done nothing wrong. Imo, that is more harmful. I appreciate and think on every comment that is made is this thread because right now I feel incapable of evaluating things on my own.
> 
> 
> 
> @Maxo Absolutely.
> 
> 
> 
> Maxo said:
> 
> 
> 
> @Maxo @Mr.Fisty The one thing I will touch on is that right from my OP, I tried to "hint" at stuff which I probably shouldn't have done. And later when I've expanded on it, the information has come across as an inconsistency. Whether that's minimizing or not, I'm not sure...I think I just came to TAM with a preconceived notion that I wouldn't be believed because at the end of the day, my own deed is the thing that took the situation from bad to worse.
> 
> I know in my own mind that some of my H's behavior is not ok and that is ok with me.
> 
> 
> 
> @MrsAldi I won't deny that there are some occasions that I feel he is being completely ridiculous and it does take me back a little bit. And I do shut myself off at these times, even though I know he won't hurt me. It's not a response that I can control at this period of time, and likely there will always be specific behaviors that trigger that response. Often during those times, I just agree with him to save the argument.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You did make bad choices, but they did not occur in a vacuum. He has to own his own part like you are. You have the right to be angry at his treatment as well. Look at it this way. He punches you, you punch back, and you are the only one that is suppose to show remorse. Whether you want to admit it or not, he redirected his anger towards you most likely. He was a catalyst as well as many other factors. You still have some therapy to work on and it may be a life long thing.
> 
> I am not even blaming him or calling him a bad person. He needs help to work on his coping mechanisms. I do not view people as bad or good, just healthy or unhealthy. Like a sociopath did not choose to be a sociopath. But his unhealthy actions play a role in your unhealthy response. How long were you married and this is the only time you cheated on him. The circumstance was good for your own issues to play out even further. His job was probably the same in his case. Have you thought of the possibility that no matter what you did, it would not have been enough? He may wanted to punish something while protecting his own self-interest at the same time. You may have made it worse, but then again, he compounded it even further.
Click to expand...


----------



## Maxo

Mr.Fisty said:


> camerashy said:
> 
> 
> 
> @drifting on Well it doesn't harm me to have different perspectives on the situation. All I'm getting from my at home support system is how much of a **** my H is, and that I've done nothing wrong. Imo, that is more harmful. I appreciate and think on every comment that is made is this thread because right now I feel incapable of evaluating things on my own.
> 
> 
> 
> @Maxo Absolutely.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You did make bad choices, but they did not occur in a vacuum. He has to own his own part like you are. You have the right to be angry at his treatment as well. Look at it this way. He punches you, you punch back, and you are the only one that is suppose to show remorse. Whether you want to admit it or not, he redirected his anger towards you most likely. He was a catalyst as well as many other factors. You still have some therapy to work on and it may be a life long thing.
> 
> I am not even blaming him or calling him a bad person. He needs help to work on his coping mechanisms. I do not view people as bad or good, just healthy or unhealthy. Like a sociopath did not choose to be a sociopath. But his unhealthy actions play a role in your unhealthy response. How long were you married and this is the only time you cheated on him. The circumstance was good for your own issues to play out even further. His job was probably the same in his case. Have you thought of the possibility that no matter what you did, it would not have been enough? He may wanted to punish something while protecting his own self-interest at the same time. You may have made it worse, but then again, he compounded it even further.
> 
> 
> 
> False equivalency. Bad acting on his part,perhaps,we have not heard his side, vs what therapist ( some) consider the most severe form of spousal emotional abuse,cheating.
Click to expand...


----------



## Maxo

Mr.Fisty said:


> I am not condoning what she did. She made an unhealthy choice that further compounded the situation to become worse. I do believe he is also culpable as part of the catalyst in this fiasco.
> 
> My guess is because of the duress he was under at his work environment, he suppress a lot of emotions that blew up and she was a safe target. Imagine him reacting like that at his job, further placing his career in jeopardy. Also, why assume that he not only wants to let others know that he was cheated on, but what actions he had towards her as well. Look at the negative responses on here and imagine if her friends, family, his friends, and coworkers found out what he did towards her. Lets not just assume it is only because of the cheating. What would it do to his career and public self-image if they found out about his outbursts and verbal assaults.
> 
> I personally would not put it above him to control to protect himself. Sounds like he takes no responsibility in this whole thing.
> 
> BTW, what the heck did he want from the break?Does it mean that while he wants to, he has little or no obligation as her husband? How about the possibility because of his career and his lack of of an outlet, he wanted to punish someone and punish her by directing his anger and frustrations on her? How was her mental and emotional health after that?
> If you remember Mountain runner. I also place some of the responsibility of the affair on her as well. She neglected his physical and emotional needs for years. Before everyone focus he should of made a healthy choice, people excuse her from the same responsibility. Years of rejection would leave a lot of people unhealthy. It is like you neglect your own health at your own risk.
> 
> Plus, people were unfair towards him. He was suppose to feel happy that his wife gave him another chance and minimize all those years of pain and rejection. Then, he was suppose to feel only greateful for another chance as if the neglect did not also play an important role . It was also a gift on his own end that he was willing to look past his pain to help her heal. Depending on the circumstance,the WS also gives the gift of forgiveness.


No ,divorce is the honorable option.


----------



## Maxo

Bibi1031 said:


> I owe allegiance to the person that seeks help and not anyone else. I don't owe her husband anything. I do think he is one very sick individual. If that to you is me sentencing him, then so be it.
> 
> He is most certainly guilty of being sick, not accepting it and not seeking help. He is also guilty of throwing away his wife when he should know better and use communication instead of caveman tactics that only helped to hammer the last nail on the coffin of this marriage. He is guilty of causing a lot of the mess that transpired with his decision to throw her out!
> 
> Did I think he was cheating, yes. I said that at the very beginning of this thread. As Camerashy kept posting, I saw a better picture of her husband. I still think he may be guilty of infidelity, but I am not quite certain. I am 100% certain he is a sick man though!
> 
> I don't know why some keep insisting that OP has been swayed into seeing her husband as abusive. Remember that she is not 5 years old and she can think for herself. I have not read here that she is in any way incompetent. She actually communicates quite well, much better than most. So why question her competence?
> 
> Also, remember that she has had time to look back into her marriage and has realized a thing or two about how her marriage truly is. She sees that her husband has tendencies that hinder their relationship. She will more than likely see much more of that as time does its thing and she can see more clearly now that the rose colored glasses have been snatched away from her.
> 
> Why is this seen as waffling? We all have gone back into our pasts and realize things we were not able to see before. Things get clearer now and we understand a little better why certain things happened. And by the way, this is very normal. We all do this. That is how we learn. We go back and seek answers for ourselves. Most of those answers are in our past conversations or experiences with others. Isn't it part of hindsight as well?


What evidence do you rely on to guess that he is cheating?
You ,yourself,have said camera is competent and has reflected on her marriage. Yet,she has indicated that she has no doubts 're his fidelity.
So,which is it? She is competent and smart enough to now see he has issues,but not enough to see that he is cheating,like you can
You jumped right to the speculation 're cheating,right at the staart,revealing your bias. No evidence,no suspicions from her,nothing.
You have zero credibility.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Maxo said:


> Mr.Fisty said:
> 
> 
> 
> False equivalency. Bad acting on his part,perhaps,we have not heard his side, vs what therapist ( some) consider the most severe form of spousal emotional abuse,cheating.
> 
> 
> 
> Funny, because I know of a BS that left his wife and children homeless to drug addiction. Btw, response is subjective as I did not have as much trauma as others. There was a WS that was abuse by an alcholic. He abuse the children and the pet as well. BS can help manifest disorders like Stockholm syndrome. There are BS I know like my marine cousin that moved on quickly without much mental instability. There are cultures where it is not as damaging as you put it like Brazil and France. It is different for everyone based on many factors. My cousin had a lot of other females interested and he told me it was not worth it and moved on.
> 
> It was not too uncommon long ago where it was okay to have mistresses.
Click to expand...


----------



## Maxo

Mr.Fisty said:


> Maxo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Funny, because I know of a BS that left his wife and children homeless to drug addiction. Btw, response is subjective as I did not have as much trauma as others. There was a WS that was abuse by an alcholic. He abuse the children and the pet as well. BS can help manifest disorders like Stockholm syndrome. There are BS I know like my marine cousin that moved on quickly without much mental instability. There are cultures where it is not as damaging as you put it like Brazil and France. It is different for everyone based on many factors. My cousin had a lot of other females interested and he told me it was not worth it and moved on.
> 
> It was not too uncommon long ago where it was okay to have mistresses.
> 
> 
> 
> Are you equating what her husband did to those extreme examples?
Click to expand...


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Maxo said:


> No ,divorce is the honorable option.



Honorable thing? You behave like BS do not play a role in another person's mental health and yet you talk about the trauma that a WS's action has on a BS.

Like a BS has the choice to do the honorable thing as well. I guess some BS just like hurting their spouses because they choose to do so.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Maxo said:


> Mr.Fisty said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are you equating what her husband did to those extreme examples?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you equating that hsi pain is less relevant than her own? Are you only bias against WS.
> 
> There were some BS on here that did no have much of any trauma and did not really blame the WS for cheating and leaving as much because they acknowledge that they hurt their spouses. Heck, some posters try convincing them what terrible people their WS was and they did nothing wrong.
Click to expand...


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Heck, I know of some BS that wanted to see their wives with another man and whose fault do you believe that is? I know an ex-hot wife that her husband set up the date with the guy she fell in love with after one night. She left him for the new guy and is more happily married. She was happily married to the other guy as well but he wanted to see her with other men.

In fact, I have read some cuckolds on here that were abusive to try and make their wives sleep with other men and it backfired as some develop feelings. Congrats, they are now a BS. And those BS in turn abuse their wives for falling in love or developing feelings.

You should check out some of the open marriage scene. There are sometimes crying men that are abusive towards their spouse at some of these events. It is sad, since they are the ones that mostly push their wives. Some even beat their spouse but again, had no qualms with sleeping withanother woman.


----------



## camerashy

Tobyboy said:


> So where do things stand now?
> Are you at home? Is he?
> Are y'all talking?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 @Tobyboy I'm home now. He's home sometimes. We talk sometimes. A lot of the time he leaves straight afterwards.



MrsAldi said:


> @camerashy when you say ridiculous behaviour, is he shouting, slamming things like doors, glasses etc?
> You should be able to disagree with him without fear, you should be able to voice your opinion without fear.
> Keeping quiet & being unable to voice your feelings will only cause resentment down the road in the next few years of marriage.
> Then your attraction to him will fade.
> 
> Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


 @MrsAldi Shouting and slamming doors, name calling, yes. That's nothing new. It's a lot worse now, but that's his typical response. He wants me to yell back, but I don't, even though he gets my blood boiling with some of the things he says. I don't want to post specific things he's said, mostly because I think some people would get the wrong end of the stick, and partly because some of it is really humiliating. 




Mr.Fisty said:


> You did make bad choices, but they did not occur in a vacuum. He has to own his own part like you are. You have the right to be angry at his treatment as well. Look at it this way. He punches you, you punch back, and you are the only one that is suppose to show remorse. Whether you want to admit it or not, he redirected his anger towards you most likely. He was a catalyst as well as many other factors. You still have some therapy to work on and it may be a life long thing.
> 
> I am not even blaming him or calling him a bad person. He needs help to work on his coping mechanisms. I do not view people as bad or good, just healthy or unhealthy. Like a sociopath did not choose to be a sociopath. But his unhealthy actions play a role in your unhealthy response. How long were you married and this is the only time you cheated on him. The circumstance was good for your own issues to play out even further. His job was probably the same in his case. Have you thought of the possibility that no matter what you did, it would not have been enough? He may wanted to punish something while protecting his own self-interest at the same time. You may have made it worse, but then again, he compounded it even further.


These are all things that are going around in my mind right now.


----------



## GusPolinski

Broken quote tags FTL.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MrsAldi

@camerashy his behaviour is borderline abusive (speaking from experience here) just because it's not violence doesn't mean it's not abusive. 
Name calling & shouting is abusive, it's putting you down emotionally & draining your self-esteem. 
In the 10 years I've known my husband, he has never shouted or called me a name. 
The question is, why do you want to stay with him?


Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


----------



## Bibi1031

Be smart said:


> I didnt see you online for a long time @Bibi1031. How are you my Lady ?
> .


Hello there sir! I had to take a small break from TAM. Have had some surgery done and just been really busy at work as well.

I see that you continue giving great advice while remaining polite each and every time.


----------



## Bibi1031

Maxo said:


> No ,divorce is the honorable option.


According to who?


----------



## Bibi1031

MrsAldi said:


> @camerashy his behaviour is borderline abusive (speaking from experience here) just because it's not violence doesn't mean it's not abusive.
> Name calling & shouting is abusive, it's putting you down emotionally & draining your self-esteem.
> In the 10 years I've known my husband, he has never shouted or called me a name.
> The question is, why do you want to stay with him?
> 
> 
> Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


QFT


----------



## donny64

MrsAldi said:


> @camerashy his behaviour is borderline abusive (speaking from experience here) just because it's not violence doesn't mean it's not abusive.
> Name calling & shouting is abusive, it's putting you down emotionally & draining your self-esteem.
> In the 10 years I've known my husband, he has never shouted or called me a name.
> The question is, why do you want to stay with him?
> 
> 
> Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


Depends a little (just a little) on the circumstance . Raising voices in anger or name calling could be understandable and not "abuse" (rarely). Depends on the provocation. I'd certainly see cheating, severe untruthfulness, sever financial negligence with family funds all understandable reasons I suppose. But as an every day way to argue or cower someone into backing down? No way. Time to get out, set him straight, and demonstrate it will not be tolerated. 

I personally don't engage in it or believe in it (even in the extreme circumstance of finding myself in camera's W's position recently . Not a single name called, and never raised my voice above "loud" I guess you could say. Not in all our years, and not even after that. Just not smart to either give, or allow yourself to receive such treatment. Nip that crap in the bud as soon as it starts. 

Yelling and name calling intimidate and scar. No place for it with someone you're supposed to love. Understandable rarely, but damn, have some control if you want the respect of your SO. And if your SO engages in this behavior, have enough respect for yourself to not tolerate it. Not hard to stop. When it happens....walk out. If it happens again, walk out again. Escelate your response to the negative behavior until it stops or you just walk away for good. 

Physical abuse of any kind is a first time deal beaker. One and done.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

I'm going to be blunt.

Camerashy, seriously, cut it out. You could end most of this bickering RIGHT NOW. All of this hinting and hedging is highly ridiculous when you are asking for help. You'll write he is angry now, then subtly imply his angry behavior happens all of the time and then you go back to make sure we understand he normally isn't like this at all. You make ABSOLUTELY sure to not use the word abuse, but every other synonym that can be interpreted multiple ways is in full effect. I asked you a few nicely worded pointed questions earlier and you did the thesaurus answer again.

Is he currently or was he EVER abusing you or not? Yes, it is pertinent to the advice you'll receive even with your cheating.


----------



## Maxo

Mr.Fisty said:


> Maxo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are you equating that hsi pain is less relevant than her own? Are you only bias against WS.
> 
> There were some BS on here that did no have much of any trauma and did not really blame the WS for cheating and leaving as much because they acknowledge that they hurt their spouses. Heck, some posters try convincing them what terrible people their WS was and they did nothing wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course I am biased against cheaters. No one can cause another to break his or her vows.
> What,am I supposed to like cheaters?
Click to expand...


----------



## Maxo

Mr.Fisty said:


> Heck, I know of some BS that wanted to see their wives with another man and whose fault do you believe that is? I know an ex-hot wife that her husband set up the date with the guy she fell in love with after one night. She left him for the new guy and is more happily married. She was happily married to the other guy as well but he wanted to see her with other men.
> 
> In fact, I have read some cuckolds on here that were abusive to try and make their wives sleep with other men and it backfired as some develop feelings. Congrats, they are now a BS. And those BS in turn abuse their wives for falling in love or developing feelings.
> 
> You should check out some of the open marriage scene. There are sometimes crying men that are abusive towards their spouse at some of these events. It is sad, since they are the ones that mostly push their wives. Some even beat their spouse but again, had no qualms with sleeping withanother woman.


Pretty weird.


----------



## Maxo

Bibi1031 said:


> According to who?


Fred Bilitnikoff, former wide receiver for the Oakland Raiders,that's who.


----------



## Bibi1031

Maxo said:


> Fred Bilitnikoff, former wide receiver for the Oakland Raiders,that's who.



:bsflag::bsflag::bsflag::bsflag:


Copied from the horses mouth...I mean horses post :grin2:

*"you have insufficient data and it is tainted."*

:crazy::crazy::crazy:


----------



## camerashy

phillybeffandswiss said:


> I'm going to be blunt.
> 
> Camerashy, seriously, cut it out. You could end most of this bickering RIGHT NOW. All of this hinting and hedging is highly ridiculous when you are asking for help. You'll write he is angry now, then subtly imply his angry behavior happens all of the time and then you go back to make sure we understand he normally isn't like this at all. You make ABSOLUTELY sure to not use the word abuse, but every other synonym that can be interpreted multiple ways is in full effect. I asked you a few nicely worded pointed questions earlier and you did the thesaurus answer again.
> 
> Is he currently or was he EVER abusing you or not? Yes, it is pertinent to the advice you'll receive even with your cheating.


 @phillybeffandswiss I understand that, and I apologize. I've at times been made to feel bad for implying that my H's behavior is abusive/not fair. The answer for that is yes, he can be. My own belief (based on years of therapy) is that anyone who uses controlling behavior to manipulate someone's thoughts or feelings, or to deliberately belittle them/put them down, is being abusive. (My H does the latter).

But do I think he would physically hurt me, no. Do I think he has a personality/behavioral disorder, no. I just think that he finds it difficult to process his anger, and that whether intentionally, or unintentionally...I sometimes get hurt/shut out in the process. I don't think it's a deal breaker. I just would like to see him get to a place where he can see his own behavior and start taking some responsibility for it.

I ****ing messed up, I get that. I hurt him and I hurt our relationship and I get that. And I also accept that trust isn't restored overnight and we might not be able to ever repair the damage that's been done. But I do love him and want to repair the damage I've caused. There's a lot of issues that we as a couple have to work on, but we can only do that if he's willing to accept some responsibility too.


----------



## camerashy

@phillybeffandswiss The problem is that he has too much ammunition now. And I don't think he's going to accept responsibility for anything.


----------



## aine

Have I missed something or have you actually found out why he wanted you to leave "his" house before all of this went down. He is culpable to a certain extent, he took out the gun and you pulled the trigger. 

I think he is using your 'screw-up' as a smoke screen. Dig deeper.


----------



## drifting on

Prior to the investigation of your husband at his firm, how often did he name call or belittle you? 
How often did he manipulate you? 
Definition of manipulate;
control or influence (a person or situation) cleverly, unfairly, or unscrupulously.
"the masses were deceived and manipulated by a tiny group"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Thank you and this is why you demand therapy. What do you mean he has too much ammunition? You made a stupid choice, but it isn't "too much ammunition" for anything. What other incidents, between you two, are you not relating? You are a tad too cryptic for me. It sounds like you are both adversarial in this marriage. Hiding what he has done and what you've done doesn't help either of you at all. If either of you cheated before or had questionable dealings with others in the marriage say so. Yes, even if one of you had been jealous. Also, being in therapy and surviving abuse does not make you an authority on abuse or personality disorders. No, I am not saying he has a disorder, nor am I trying to ignore how you feel or excuse his actions. You OBVIOUSLY need more help if you see abuse, but stay and take it. He needs it to deal with his anger issues and if he does have an diagnosed disorder. Cheating or not, abuse or not, sometimes marriages need to end despite how people have colored divorce. Do I think it is too easy to get a divorce? Yes. Still, I believe some people absolutely should not be married to each other or at all.



> I ****ing messed up, I get that. I hurt him and I hurt our relationship and I get that. And I also accept that trust isn't restored overnight and we might not be able to ever repair the damage that's been done. But I do love him and want to repair the damage I've caused. There's a lot of issues that we as a couple have to work on, but we can only do that if he's willing to accept some responsibility too.


Okay, so you owned what you did. Cool. It doesn't mean you accept resbonsibility and allow him to act like an idiot. My stories are to give you reasons why he may have felt no support and lashed out. Nowhere in any of those posts am I saying his mistreatment of you is allowed or okay.


----------



## camerashy

aine said:


> Have I missed something or have you actually found out why he wanted you to leave "his" house before all of this went down. He is culpable to a certain extent, he took out the gun and you pulled the trigger.
> 
> I think he is using your 'screw-up' as a smoke screen. Dig deeper.





drifting on said:


> Prior to the investigation of your husband at his firm, how often did he name call or belittle you?
> How often did he manipulate you?
> Definition of manipulate;
> control or influence (a person or situation) cleverly, unfairly, or unscrupulously.
> "the masses were deceived and manipulated by a tiny group"
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 @aine @drifting on Well that example right there about it being "our house, but still his house" is a manipulation is it not? And yes, he does often make me feel really small when we argue. That's been right from our very first argument. He knows all of my insecurities, so when he's done arguing with me, he uses those to end the conversation. (That's what it feels like to me anyway). Telling me I'm stupid, I don't know what I'm talking about, I'm just being a b****, I'm a s***...things like that.



phillybeffandswiss said:


> Thank you and this is why you demand therapy. What do you mean he has too much ammunition? You made a stupid choice, but it isn't "too much ammunition" for anything. What other incidents, between you two, are you not relating? You are a tad too cryptic for me. It sounds like you are both adversarial in this marriage. Hiding what he has done and what you've done doesn't help either of you at all. If either of you cheated before or had questionable dealings with others in the marriage say so. Yes, even if one of you had been jealous. Also, being in therapy and surviving abuse does not make you an authority on abuse or personality disorders. No, I am not saying he has a disorder, nor am I trying to ignore how you feel or excuse his actions. You OBVIOUSLY need more help if you see abuse, but stay and take it. He needs it to deal with his anger issues and if he does have an diagnosed disorder. Cheating or not, abuse or not, sometimes marriages need to end despite how people have colored divorce. Do I think it is too easy to get a divorce? Yes. Still, I believe some people absolutely should not be married to each other or at all.
> 
> Okay, so you owned what you did. Cool. It doesn't mean you accept resbonsibility and allow him to act like an idiot. My stories are to give you reasons why he may have felt no support and lashed out. Nowhere in any of those posts am I saying his mistreatment of you is allowed or okay.


 @phillybeffandswiss Nah, I know...it's more about me and my coping mechanisms more than anything you or anyone else has said. I'm very good at hiding/minimizing things...I think most people who are or have been in abusive situations are. It's really hard for me to look at the situation and say, "that's your ****, not mine." I feel like I have to take some blame for it too. For example, if he says that I'm not being supportive enough, or closing off...then I automatically think it's my fault...regardless of that little niggling voice inside my head that says that he's the one who actually shut off. Throughout the duration of our relationship he has failed to take responsibility for a whole lot. It's always I'M being too something, not him. And I just take the blame and wait for it to blow over.

Prior to the work stuff, we didn't fight as much as we do now though...so it was a lot easier.


----------



## karole

Op, what are the good things about your marriage? 

From what you've said, your husband is an ass. No man should be calling you names, especially, your husband - and, especially not those sort of names!!! You should leave for just that. No way would I put up with the name-calling. That is not how a relationship is supposed to be and it's certainly not how a husband should treat his wife. 

I don't know if you are in therapy or not, but you need to get into therapy to figure out why you keep choosing abusive men. 

I know what you did was horrible, but, your husband is no saint either. My heart breaks for you.


----------



## Maxo

Bibi1031 said:


> :bsflag::bsflag::bsflag::bsflag:
> 
> 
> Copied from the horses mouth...I mean horses post :grin2:
> 
> *"you have insufficient data and it is tainted."*
> 
> :crazy::crazy::crazy:


You question Fred? Blasphemy.:surprise:


----------



## camerashy

karole said:


> Op, what are the good things about your marriage?
> 
> From what you've said, your husband is an ass. No man should be calling you names, especially, your husband - and, especially not those sort of names!!! You should leave for just that. No way would I put up with the name-calling. That is not how a relationship is supposed to be and it's certainly not how a husband should treat his wife.
> 
> I don't know if you are in therapy or not, but you need to get into therapy to figure out why you keep choosing abusive men.
> 
> I know what you did was horrible, but, your husband is no saint either. My heart breaks for you.


 @karole I am re-starting therapy next week. The appointment is made. I think you're right about that. I'm really struggling to see the good in our M at the moment...everything is just falling apart.


----------



## MattMatt

I bet your husband is a real fantastic chap to work with.

I can't imagine anyone there hating him enough to.... ah! I think perhaps he might, in reality, be a quadruped's hind quarters.


----------



## MattMatt

camerashy said:


> @karole I am re-starting therapy next week. The appointment is made. I think you're right about that. I'm really struggling to see the good in our M at the moment...everything is just falling apart.


Because your husband is busy smashing it to pieces.


----------



## Bibi1031

camerashy said:


> @karole I am re-starting therapy next week. The appointment is made. I think you're right about that. I'm really struggling to see the good in our M at the moment...everything is just falling apart.


I'm sorry 

Maybe caveman's heart will do some somersaults and straighten his head before he loses you. 

I'm a dreamer at heart, and I like happy endings on the screen and especially in real life. I know you don't want to start again. None of us marry to divorce later. We all want the til death due us part with a happy ending when all is said and done.


----------



## Maxo

MattMatt said:


> I bet your husband is a real fantastic chap to work with.
> 
> I can't imagine anyone there hating him enough to.... ah! I think perhaps he might, in reality, be a quadruped's hind quarters.


The evolution of her description of her husband and the marriage dynamics,coming as it has after the suggestions of abusiveness or a PD is interesting. This is especially true when factoring in cognitive dissonance.


----------



## MattMatt

Maxo said:


> The evolution of her description of her husband and the marriage dynamics,coming as it has after the suggestions of abusiveness or a PD is interesting. This is especially true when factoring in cognitive dissonance.


Coming here might have given her some valuable information about her husband.

"No. Really! He has *not* got invisible trousers, he is, actually, stark bo**ock naked and he is also doing something unforgivable to the pooch."


----------



## Maxo

MattMatt said:


> Coming here might have given her some valuable information about her husband.
> 
> "No. Really! He has *not* got invisible trousers, he is, actually, stark bo**ock naked and he is also doing something unforgivable to the pooch."[/QUOTE
> 
> I believe,for whatever reason,matt,you are highly invested in believing that,despite it beong conjecture.]


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Probably gave her good advice about herself and her husband.


----------



## sparrow55

Bibi1031 said:


> You were set free. You need to end your marriage. He used the break to get rid of you. He is upset because he is projecting and set you free so he could Persue his freedom as well.
> 
> Things backfired when his plan B didn't stay put until he was good and ready to be honest with you. He is probably cheating on you if he wanted a break from marriage. He is projecting because he probably did have sex with someone else and that is why he believes you had sex with a guy too.
> 
> You were his plan B. He can shove his plan B where the sun don't shine honey. You deserve better. File for divorce and snoop. You will find evidence of a third person in your marriage. 99% of couples don't ask for a break in the marriage unless a third party has been introduced into the mix!
> 
> He is cheating!



TAM jumped the shark.. He asked for a temporary separation during a tough time, you cheated and are incredibly dismissive of his pain and this post concluded that it was because he was cheating ? I went back and read OP's post a few times again to make sure I wasn't missing anything there.

This post should win some award for the most stupid and idiotic post made on this forum this year.


----------



## sparrow55

Bibi1031 said:


> OH boy, you picked yourself a winner here! Not!





Bibi1031 said:


> Why, oh why would you want this man back! Run as fast as you can from this jerk. You have been set free. Embrace this new opportunity to choose better this next time around.





Bibi1031 said:


> He has a personality disorder and is a jerk too!
> 
> He will never forgive you, and he will never really let you go now either. He will hurt you until you say enough. He is crazy and you can't change crazy, you run away from crazy.





Bibi1031 said:


> He is hovering. He is using the deluxe model on you. Wake up and get out of his way!





Bibi1031 said:


> That's how abusers are! Read about hovering in regards to abuse. You may think it's not possible, but I see so many red flags in your husband's behavior through the few posts you have written here.
> 
> Love makes us blind and easy prey to Personality disorder cuckoo nuts!
> 
> Please read about this and see your husband's behaviors without the rose colored glasses of love. You will be sadly enlightened. But it's better to be knowledgeable than to remain blind and easy prey for someone that can never be there for you because he is incapable. It's ALL about HIM



This person has serious mental issues.


----------



## sparrow55

camerashy said:


> @MrsAldi and I think this applies to what you said also @thephoenix
> 
> I close off because I have to. It's conditioned into me from being in an abusive relationship when I was a teenager. When I tell my H this, he hates it and tells me that he hates that anyone has ever put their hands on me that way, but he shouldn't have to pay for another person's mistakes. He also thinks that I shut off because I don't care enough.



Imagine if he kept snooping on you or keeps suspecting your loyalty(before you cheated) because his ex cheated on him, would you think that it is fair ? There is a balance in between your argument and his I think.


----------



## sparrow55

camerashy said:


> @phillybeffandswiss The problem is that he has too much ammunition now. And I don't think he's going to accept responsibility for anything.


Maybe you become too defensive and he just ups the ante when he gets a chance to make a point, making this a vicious circle that escalates on both ends ?

My point is, you might be oblivious to your own shortcomings, just like every person on earth is.


----------



## MrsAldi

@sparrow55 what's your point please?
Is it that it's her baggage from previous relationship with abusive ex, that now is blocking her ability to communicate with her husband? 

Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


----------



## Unicus

Oh, dear! And eleven pages of responses, do you need or want to hear more?

You weren't clear about the original situation at work..an important detail, as your subsequent issues seem to stem from that. 

Even though he said it passed, it really doesn't seem to have. As a result, the emotion he has from it is getting played out in your relationship..I believe the term is called "Projection". 

You and he need to talk about whatever that situation was and also how it's getting acted out in your marriage. And, just as an aside, you don't get a "Break" from a marriage..you're either in it or you're not. His decision to take that for himself is really selfish. As is your decision to not only fool around with another guy, but then tell him about it...even though your loneliness and anger are understandable. You both need to talk and stop doing.

You guys need to decide if you still love each other and are committed to each other regardless of life's other pressures. He seems to be confusing work issues with marital ones.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

No, I'm pretty sure it is sparrow being blunt and not liking the instant cheater/abuser scenario posted early and continues in the thread.


----------



## sparrow55

MrsAldi said:


> @sparrow55 what's your point please?
> Is it that it's her baggage from previous relationship with abusive ex, that now is blocking her ability to communicate with her husband?
> 
> Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


 
This is a complex issue and I am not making this a black and white situation.

While how she reacts is due to her previous abusive relationship, by reacting as such to her husband(who probably has knowledge about it), she is probably making him feel that he is abusing her too. When someone accuses you or implies that you are abusing your SO(even if it is your own SO), most people don;t take it well and react defensively, like her husband is doing right now. 


@camerashy, you need to move back immediately. The distance is making this worse. Things will still be bad when you go back but it is better than how things will go if you keep staying with your friend. Atleast he knows you are around in the house even if he hates you. But in your absence, his mind makes up stuff that is way worse than you might have done/

I do think the way he is treating is incredibly harsh and cruel. but it might just be temporary infidelity fed anger or some other bigger personality flaw. You need to make that judgement call.


----------



## sparrow55

marduk said:


> You're expecting any level of insight and introspection from a woman who is so distraught about her failing marriage that she...
> 
> Goes clubbing with her girlfriends?
> 
> Then makes out with a dude?
> 
> Then blames it on the booze?
> 
> Then comes here for advice on why her husband won't trust her?
> 
> Odds are he told her, and she doesn't want to listen. Or that he's having an affair himself. Or he thought she was. Or anything of a million things.
> 
> But this one literally has no idea what is going on in her marriage and no idea why she made out with some random dude (except that he _listened to her_, which doesn't even make sense -- how do you listen on a club dance floor?)



Still catching up with the thread, but wanted to mention that the first post was probably written in a bit of anger while OP's posts a bit further in the thread are much better. She defends her husband from abuse allegations, doesn't take the easy bait replies, seems regretful of what she did and actually looking to improve the situation, even though she is not sure how to go about it.


----------



## knobcreek

Kissing and getting your titties played with in a club by a stranger is still very much cheating.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

She is back sparrow, he is now avoiding her as much as possible. 

This is why I believe they have a huge communication issue, which his anger and her former abuse aren't helping. She admits he can get her blood boiling, but she shuts down and becomes unresponsive. I honestly think they do not understand each other and have fallen into bad habits. If he gets angry or edges toward what she deems abuse, she shuts down to protect herself. In turn he get angry because she doesn't discuss, fight back, argue and just agrees with everything he says. So, they just continued to feed the dysfunction until, this sexual harassment incident occurred. 

So, any resentment and miscommunication that was already there had been compounded by the investigation.


----------



## Bibi1031

sparrow55 said:


> This person has serious mental issues.


:lol:


----------



## Mr.Fisty

https://www.mentalhelp.net/blogs/st...bones-name-calling-in-intimate-relationships/

Sticks and Stones will Break My Bones: Name-calling in Intimate Relationships 
RELATIONSHIP MATTERS BY DANIEL SONKIN, PH.D. MAR 24, 2011 
Daniel Jay Sonkin, Ph.D. is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist in an independent practice in Sausalito, California. Since 1981, his work has focused ...Read More 

Recently a client told me that his wife frequently calls him an idiot. Another person told me that her partner routinely refers to her as a *****. A sixteen year old described how her boyfriend would often say “f*** you” or “you’re full of s***.” When I asked each person if the name-calling bothered them, some said, “Kind of” others just shrugged their shoulders and said, “I don’t know.” When I asked my teenager client if it bothers her, why doesn’t she say something to her boyfriend? She replied, “he’d just tell me I was full of it or to f*** off.” What all these people had in common was the emotional pain they felt from being verbally devalued, or put down by someone they are close to. At the same time they all felt a sense of hopelessness that they can do anything to change it. With all the important focus on physical and sexual abuse of children and adults, are we losing sight of a more common problem, emotional abuse?
Last year, psychiatrist and psychologist Martin Teicher, of Mclean Hospital at Harvard Medical School, published an exciting article on the effects of childhood peer verbal abuse by peers on the mental health of young people. The results wouldn’t surprise you: the greater the verbal abuse, the more intense the psychiatric symptoms of the victims. Teicher and his colleagues found verbal abuse by peers resulted in depression, anxiety, anger and hostility and dissociation. They found that when this abuse happens during middle school, the effects are particularly strong. What made this study different from other studies on abuse was the researcher’s interest in the effects of verbal abuse on the brain. They took a subset of the their subjects and wanted to see if there was any brain damage or changes that might be caused by the verbal abuse. They took brain scans on these individuals and what they found was very significant. The people exposed to verbal abuse, had damage to a part of the brain that has in other studies found to be damaged as a result of sexual and physical abuse. The subjects for this study were eliminated if they had a history of physical or sexual abuse. Only those who were verbally abused by peers were allowed to participate in the study. The researchers concluded that the effects on the brain they documented were from the verbal abuse they experienced. Maybe the adage, “Sticks and stones will break my bones, but words will never hurt me” is not true after all.
If it’s true that childhood verbal abuse by peers can have such a significant effect on the brains and mental health of victims, what about verbal abuse between adults in long-term relationships? There is much research that indicates that verbal abuse in intimate relationships can also lead to depression, anxiety and decreased marital satisfaction. Marco Iacoboni, author of Mirroring People, writes about how our brain is wired to communicate with other brains. The closer and longer the relationship, the stronger the neural connection is between couples. What this means is that over time we contribute to changes in our partner’s brain and they with us. It would follow that if we have positive ways of communicating we’ll strengthen neural pathways that support healthy communication. However the opposite may also be true. If we get caught in negative cycles of communication with a partner, we will be supporting those pathways as well.
One of the most common patterns seen with people who are verbally abusive (and a reason behind the difficulty they have changing their behavior) is their tendency to blame their victim for their behavior. They think, “If you hadn’t done “X”, I wouldn’t have said “Y.” The problem with this type of logic is obvious; because it is always possible to rationalize why poor behavior is an appropriate response, the poor behavior never ends. If it’s not one thing that caused their abuse, it’s something else. The use of abusive language, for most people, is an ingrained habit and reflexive response learned in childhood either by witnessing parents abuse each other or by having direct experience of being abused. Having been trained by these early experiences the brain becomes wired to reflexively respond in a negative way. But with sufficient awareness and lots of practice (repetition) it’s possible to rewire the brain so it reacts differently. The first step is to break the pattern of external blaming and take responsibility for the behavior. Once this is done, habitually abusive people become able to take control over their behavior again, at which point changing the abusive habit becomes a matter of practice and repetition.
For most people, the urge to spout negative language comes in response to a set of emotions called withdraw emotions. Withdraw emotions are reactions that make us want to pull away from or fight (e.g., the flight or fight response). Withdraw emotions typically arise in response to emotions that feel bad – anger, frustration, fear, sadness and disgust. People usually don’t feel the need to put others down when they are feeling happy and satisfied, they do it to express displeasure about a situation. An important point about withdraw emotions is there is nothing wrong with feeling upset about a situation or event or person. But how a person communicates that upset will make all the difference in the outcome. When these emotions are expressed in positive ways it leads to greater understanding, intimacy, the possibility of change and, most importantly increased trust. Learning how to express withdraw emotions constructively is simple in theory, but hard in practice. That’s because you are working against biology. The good news is that science has shown that are our brains are constantly changing and open to rewiring – it’s called neuro-plasticity. So by practicing new ways of communicating emotions, you are able to change your brain. The best alternative to name calling and swearing is learning to identify and name emotion directly (as anger, fear or frustration, for instance) rather than reflexively reacting to them. Using expressions, such as “I’m feeling angry” or “scared” or “sad” may seem awkward at first, but with practice it becomes a more natural way of talking. It may not feel as emotionally satisfying as using a four-letter word or calling someone an idiot, but it likely leads to more better outcomes; more open communication and the real possibility of change – within the individual, couple and family.
What do you do if your partner seems unwilling to take responsibility for their verbal abuse? Relationship counseling is one option. However, even then a therapist may not be successful at convincing your partner that their use of language in response to negative emotion is problematic. Depending on how extreme the abuse, leaving the relationship may be the only way to give the person a clear message that their behavior is unacceptable. However, you don’t want to make that decision lightly, especially if children are involved. Seeing a counselor can help you think through the options and explore ways to change your situation.
Keep Reading By Author Daniel Sonkin, Ph.D.



camerashy said:


> @aine @drifting on Well that example right there about it being "our house, but still his house" is a manipulation is it not? And yes, he does often make me feel really small when we argue. That's been right from our very first argument. He knows all of my insecurities, so when he's done arguing with me, he uses those to end the conversation. (That's what it feels like to me anyway). Telling me I'm stupid, I don't know what I'm talking about, I'm just being a b****, I'm a s***...things like that.



By PHD standards, that is verbal abuse means that is abuse. It is not some rare occurence but chronic. So by professional standards, he is an abuser and his verbal abuse plays a role in keeping you unhealthy as some research shows. You cannot improve until you are out of that environment as it will cause regression and undo some of what progress you made in the past.

Btw, also, do not let others blame you for withdrawing as well when he starts calling you names.


----------



## drifting on

Bibi1031 said:


> I owe allegiance to the person that seeks help and not anyone else. I don't owe her husband anything. I do think he is one very sick individual. If that to you is me sentencing him, then so be it.
> 
> He is most certainly guilty of being sick, not accepting it and not seeking help. He is also guilty of throwing away his wife when he should know better and use communication instead of caveman tactics that only helped to hammer the last nail on the coffin of this marriage. He is guilty of causing a lot of the mess that transpired with his decision to throw her out!
> 
> Did I think he was cheating, yes. I said that at the very beginning of this thread. As Camerashy kept posting, I saw a better picture of her husband. I still think he may be guilty of infidelity, but I am not quite certain. I am 100% certain he is a sick man though!
> 
> I don't know why some keep insisting that OP has been swayed into seeing her husband as abusive. Remember that she is not 5 years old and she can think for herself. I have not read here that she is in any way incompetent. She actually communicates quite well, much better than most. So why question her competence?
> 
> Also, remember that she has had time to look back into her marriage and has realized a thing or two about how her marriage truly is. She sees that her husband has tendencies that hinder their relationship. She will more than likely see much more of that as time does its thing and she can see more clearly now that the rose colored glasses have been snatched away from her.
> 
> Why is this seen as waffling? We all have gone back into our pasts and realize things we were not able to see before. Things get clearer now and we understand a little better why certain things happened. And by the way, this is very normal. We all do this. That is how we learn. We go back and seek answers for ourselves. Most of those answers are in our past conversations or experiences with others. Isn't it part of hindsight as well?




Also posted by bibi

It's your life and your journey. You will see the truth only when you are ready. Just be careful along the way and stop blaming yourself for your mistake! He will blame and guilt you plenty for it already


It's ridiculous to not take someone's word as true when they came here of their own volition. Husband will never come and be this open here. Why do you take the side of someone who hasn't even set foot here?

Shouldn't we help the ones that do post here? We are not in a court room, and even in court rooms; no one is acussed of anything until proven guilty.



First, being accused and then charged with a crime get you that magical court date with which at the end of the trial you are found either innocent or guilty. 

Second, cheating is not a mistake, it is a conscious choice, and just like with my wife OM did not trip and magically fall on top of her with his privates inside hers. Saying it is a mistake is attempting to minimize. 

Post two of yours was the most glaring, immediately you say OP's husband is an abuser. OP described her marriage as typical, with the name calling coming after her MISTAKE. You must be psychic, just as you advised OP to divorce this "sick", "jerk", and let's not forget "poor choice of a mate". You basically badgered OP about divorce and OP didn't even address you until several pages later all the while responding to others. 

You claim you owe allegiance to the poster, OP stated she wanted to work on the marriage. Is your allegiance the same as OP's? 

Your posts above are are actually quite sad in my opinion, you say OP's husband is projecting, but I see it as you projecting your internal anger towards OP. I invite you to read just posts #1 and #2, completely opposite posts. 

I will leave your thread OP, I have posted rationally and logically, more then I can say for some others though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Bibi1031

What's with these males that were cheated on going bonkers trying to analyze and critique me; that's personal and uncalled for. I have not insulted any of you. 

I have a right to say what I believe will help OP. I'm not posting to offend anyone that posts here. I didn't call any of you offended parties names. Yet several of you are taking jabs at me. Why? Because in your eyes I spoke and judged her husband too soon. That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. 

Well, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. I'm very much entitled to mine. I don't get all offended because OP does or doesn't agree with me. She can take the advice she deems pertinent to her and she can toss the rest. 

This is an online forum and anyone that signs in can post, but we need to follow the rules and not get nasty with each other. This quite frankly is getting out of hand. 

Just because my advice sounds a certain way to you doesn't mean you have the right to personally try and tear my advice down. Ignore and move on. 

Holey cow!


----------



## Maxo

Bibi1031 said:


> What's with these males that were cheated on going bonkers trying to analyze and critique me; that's personal and uncalled for. I have not insulted any of you.
> 
> I have a right to say what I believe will help OP. I'm not posting to offend anyone that posts here. I didn't call any of you offended parties names. Yet several of you are taking jabs at me. Why? Because in your eyes I spoke and judged her husband too soon. That is your opinion and you are entitled to it.
> 
> Well, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. I'm very much entitled to mine. I don't get all offended because OP does or doesn't agree with me. She can take the advice she deems pertinent to her and she can toss the rest.
> 
> This is an online forum and anyone that signs in can post, but we need to follow the rules and not get nasty with each other. This quite frankly is getting out of hand.
> 
> Just because my advice sounds a certain way to you doesn't mean you have the right to personally try and tear my advice down. Ignore and move on.
> 
> Holey cow!


IMO, it is the obvious misandry combined with the rush to judgement on her husband that irritated some posters,Bibi.
You must admit,you made a fool of yourself claiming to be virtually certain he was cheating and going on to say that 99 percent of people asking for a separation were cheating.
You cannot support either assertion.


----------



## Bibi1031

Maxo said:


> IMO, it is the obvious misandry combined with the rush to judgement on her husband that irritated some posters,Bibi.
> You must admit,you made a fool of yourself claiming to be virtually certain he was cheating and going on to say that 99 percent of people asking for a separation were cheating.
> You cannot support either assertion.


Exactly! It's your opinion. I simply don't agree with it. Our views differ. That gives no one here the right to personally attack me because of my views. 

I stand by what I posted. I think he is very probably cheating. by the way, I'm not the only poster that believes he may be cheating. 
You want facts to back up my opinion, observation, belief? Most of our advice is given through personal experience. You can't back everything with facts. That's absurd.


OP asked for advice. She even stated that all views were accepted. She not once stated not to post unless you had proof or facts to back up your post. She didn't insult anyone by stating our posts were not accepted because they weren't backed up by reliable sources. You did though.


----------



## MattMatt

Please don't feed the trolls or the pirate advertisers.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Unicus

Mr.Fisty said:


> https://www.mentalhelp.net/blogs/st...bones-name-calling-in-intimate-relationships/
> 
> Sticks and Stones will Break My Bones: Name-calling in Intimate Relationships
> RELATIONSHIP MATTERS BY DANIEL SONKIN, PH.D. MAR 24, 2011
> Daniel Jay Sonkin, Ph.D. is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist in an independent practice in Sausalito, California. Since 1981, his work has focused ...Read More
> 
> Recently a client told me that his wife frequently calls him an idiot. Another person told me that her partner routinely refers to her as a *****. A sixteen year old described how her boyfriend would often say “f*** you” or “you’re full of s***.” When I asked each person if the name-calling bothered them, some said, “Kind of” others just shrugged their shoulders and said, “I don’t know.” When I asked my teenager client if it bothers her, why doesn’t she say something to her boyfriend? She replied, “he’d just tell me I was full of it or to f*** off.” What all these people had in common was the emotional pain they felt from being verbally devalued, or put down by someone they are close to. At the same time they all felt a sense of hopelessness that they can do anything to change it. With all the important focus on physical and sexual abuse of children and adults, are we losing sight of a more common problem, emotional abuse?
> Last year, psychiatrist and psychologist Martin Teicher, of Mclean Hospital at Harvard Medical School, published an exciting article on the effects of childhood peer verbal abuse by peers on the mental health of young people. The results wouldn’t surprise you: the greater the verbal abuse, the more intense the psychiatric symptoms of the victims. Teicher and his colleagues found verbal abuse by peers resulted in depression, anxiety, anger and hostility and dissociation. They found that when this abuse happens during middle school, the effects are particularly strong. What made this study different from other studies on abuse was the researcher’s interest in the effects of verbal abuse on the brain. They took a subset of the their subjects and wanted to see if there was any brain damage or changes that might be caused by the verbal abuse. They took brain scans on these individuals and what they found was very significant. The people exposed to verbal abuse, had damage to a part of the brain that has in other studies found to be damaged as a result of sexual and physical abuse. The subjects for this study were eliminated if they had a history of physical or sexual abuse. Only those who were verbally abused by peers were allowed to participate in the study. The researchers concluded that the effects on the brain they documented were from the verbal abuse they experienced. Maybe the adage, “Sticks and stones will break my bones, but words will never hurt me” is not true after all.
> If it’s true that childhood verbal abuse by peers can have such a significant effect on the brains and mental health of victims, what about verbal abuse between adults in long-term relationships? There is much research that indicates that verbal abuse in intimate relationships can also lead to depression, anxiety and decreased marital satisfaction. Marco Iacoboni, author of Mirroring People, writes about how our brain is wired to communicate with other brains. The closer and longer the relationship, the stronger the neural connection is between couples. What this means is that over time we contribute to changes in our partner’s brain and they with us. It would follow that if we have positive ways of communicating we’ll strengthen neural pathways that support healthy communication. However the opposite may also be true. If we get caught in negative cycles of communication with a partner, we will be supporting those pathways as well.
> One of the most common patterns seen with people who are verbally abusive (and a reason behind the difficulty they have changing their behavior) is their tendency to blame their victim for their behavior. They think, “If you hadn’t done “X”, I wouldn’t have said “Y.” The problem with this type of logic is obvious; because it is always possible to rationalize why poor behavior is an appropriate response, the poor behavior never ends. If it’s not one thing that caused their abuse, it’s something else. The use of abusive language, for most people, is an ingrained habit and reflexive response learned in childhood either by witnessing parents abuse each other or by having direct experience of being abused. Having been trained by these early experiences the brain becomes wired to reflexively respond in a negative way. But with sufficient awareness and lots of practice (repetition) it’s possible to rewire the brain so it reacts differently. The first step is to break the pattern of external blaming and take responsibility for the behavior. Once this is done, habitually abusive people become able to take control over their behavior again, at which point changing the abusive habit becomes a matter of practice and repetition.
> For most people, the urge to spout negative language comes in response to a set of emotions called withdraw emotions. Withdraw emotions are reactions that make us want to pull away from or fight (e.g., the flight or fight response). Withdraw emotions typically arise in response to emotions that feel bad – anger, frustration, fear, sadness and disgust. People usually don’t feel the need to put others down when they are feeling happy and satisfied, they do it to express displeasure about a situation. An important point about withdraw emotions is there is nothing wrong with feeling upset about a situation or event or person. But how a person communicates that upset will make all the difference in the outcome. When these emotions are expressed in positive ways it leads to greater understanding, intimacy, the possibility of change and, most importantly increased trust. Learning how to express withdraw emotions constructively is simple in theory, but hard in practice. That’s because you are working against biology. The good news is that science has shown that are our brains are constantly changing and open to rewiring – it’s called neuro-plasticity. So by practicing new ways of communicating emotions, you are able to change your brain. The best alternative to name calling and swearing is learning to identify and name emotion directly (as anger, fear or frustration, for instance) rather than reflexively reacting to them. Using expressions, such as “I’m feeling angry” or “scared” or “sad” may seem awkward at first, but with practice it becomes a more natural way of talking. It may not feel as emotionally satisfying as using a four-letter word or calling someone an idiot, but it likely leads to more better outcomes; more open communication and the real possibility of change – within the individual, couple and family.
> What do you do if your partner seems unwilling to take responsibility for their verbal abuse? Relationship counseling is one option. However, even then a therapist may not be successful at convincing your partner that their use of language in response to negative emotion is problematic. Depending on how extreme the abuse, leaving the relationship may be the only way to give the person a clear message that their behavior is unacceptable. However, you don’t want to make that decision lightly, especially if children are involved. Seeing a counselor can help you think through the options and explore ways to change your situation.
> Keep Reading By Author Daniel Sonkin, Ph.D.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By PHD standards, that is verbal abuse means that is abuse. It is not some rare occurence but chronic. So by professional standards, he is an abuser and his verbal abuse plays a role in keeping you unhealthy as some research shows. You cannot improve until you are out of that environment as it will cause regression and undo some of what progress you made in the past.
> 
> Btw, also, do not let others blame you for withdrawing as well when he starts calling you names.



That is a really looooong paragraph.

I wonder how your clients would have responded not so much to your question of how the name calling makes them feel, but rather why they accept it? 

There's little doubt that those with working ears and a functional brain feel badly when someone says unpleasant things to or about them. And, there's little doubt that any action or word used specifically to cause distress counts as abuse.

The larger issue...and the gist (grist?) of the work is determining why the person then doesn't respond in more self protective ways when subject to that abuse. That's probably related to far deeper issues and patterns than merely identifying the emotion that is aroused by such behavior and putting a label on it. Then you can help them deconstruct the cause and then reconstruct their own self image in ways that don't require their recapitulating some events or relationships from the past.


----------



## Bibi1031

MattMatt said:


> Please don't feed the trolls or the pirate advertisers.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't know if these are trolls or not, but when you get personally attacked and rules are not followed, one should defend oneself and not bury our head in the sand. That's why we have moderators and the very convenient report button. 

I did notice the pirate ad. Those I know better than to respond.:smile2:


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Mr.Fisty said:


> Btw, also, do not let others blame you for withdrawing as well when he starts calling you names.


See, this is why you need a therapist and not the internet. No one has blamed you for withdrawing. What has been pointed out is, his yelling and your withdrawing are feeding a viscous cycle which needs to be broken. I'm glad you are going back to your therapist. You need unbiased and neutral opinions to determine what is fully going on. Fisty may be right he could verbally abusing you. 

So, everyone can be right and everyone can be wrong. We all can engage in confirmation bias and it does not help you. As I said earlier, he doesn't get to treat you in a crappy fashion even if you cheated. If you love him and want to fix this, if possible, you need to see all sides of the equation. Saying you both are engaging in poor communication is only assigning communication blame.


----------



## Bibi1031

GusPolinski said:


> Broken quote tags FTL.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What does FTL stand for?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

for the loss


----------



## Bibi1031

OH ok, thanks


----------



## sparrow55

Ok, after reading some of the OP's recent posts and added details



> Telling me I'm stupid, I don't know what I'm talking about, I'm just being a b****, I'm a s***...things like that.





> Shouting and slamming doors, name calling, yes. That's nothing new. It's a lot worse now, but that's his typical response. He wants me to yell back, but I don't, even though he gets my blood boiling with some of the things he says. I don't want to post specific things he's said, mostly because I think some people would get the wrong end of the stick, and partly because some of it is really humiliating.


This guy is verbally abusive and divorce worthy. 

And I don't think there is enough love in you for him due the way he treated you all these years. You do not trust him with your heart and be vulnerable with him again after all that happened and how he seems to be reacting now. In these situations, R cannot happen. 

There might have been a chance to fix his issues before your kissing incident. Now, he has the ultimate trump card to continue his sh!tty behavior and not make any improvements to himself wile putting you down.


----------



## sparrow55

Bibi1031 said:


> What's with these males that were cheated on going bonkers trying to analyze and critique me; that's personal and uncalled for. I have not insulted any of you.
> 
> I have a right to say what I believe will help OP. I'm not posting to offend anyone that posts here. I didn't call any of you offended parties names. Yet several of you are taking jabs at me. Why? Because in your eyes I spoke and judged her husband too soon. That is your opinion and you are entitled to it.
> 
> Well, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. I'm very much entitled to mine. I don't get all offended because OP does or doesn't agree with me. She can take the advice she deems pertinent to her and she can toss the rest.
> 
> This is an online forum and anyone that signs in can post, but we need to follow the rules and not get nasty with each other. This quite frankly is getting out of hand.
> 
> Just because my advice sounds a certain way to you doesn't mean you have the right to personally try and tear my advice down. Ignore and move on.
> 
> Holey cow!


That is because your insights are incredibly bad to the point that they are dangerous to OP who is in a vulnerable position. You mean well,but that doesn't mean your advice is any good.Your opinion or my opinion only works to a limit.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

phillybeffandswiss said:


> See, this is why you need a therapist and not the internet. No one has blamed you for withdrawing. What has been pointed out is, his yelling and your withdrawing are feeding a viscous cycle which needs to be broken. I'm glad you are going back to your therapist. You need unbiased and neutral opinions to determine what is fully going on. Fisty may be right he could verbally abusing you.
> 
> So, everyone can be right and everyone can be wrong. We all can engage in confirmation bias and it does not help you. As I said earlier, he doesn't get to treat you in a crappy fashion even if you cheated. If you love him and want to fix this, if possible, you need to see all sides of the equation. Saying you both are engaging in poor communication is only assigning communication blame.



Actually, what about name calling is not abusive. According to research it is. You call it crappy treatment but he did use verbal abuse as she listed some of the names he called her in the past when he wanted to end a discussion. What part of idiot, b1tch , and other colorful names is not abusive.

At my workplace, if I called some of my children clients that, I would be charge with child abuse and not some crappy treatment as you call it.

I can call what she did not cheating as they were on a break. It is yes or no that he call her names. If yes, then it is considered verbal abuse. And she posted it was chronic going back to the beginning.
So when is name-calling and put downs not consider abuse to you.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Yes, some claim that her withdrawal is the reasons why he called her names. Some even told her that she has to put up with it because she cheated. Posters told her to let him vent his anger out on her so yeah. No choice was such a poster.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

We will disagree. You want a research debate or further examples start another thread.


----------



## Bibi1031

sparrow55 said:


> *That is because your insights are incredibly bad to the point that they are dangerous to OP who is in a vulnerable position.* You mean well,but that doesn't mean your advice is any good.Your opinion or my opinion only works to a limit.


You don't get to make that call. That is why this forum has moderators. If I am out of line, I will be told/reprimanded/banned.

Just like the bold part above is determined by moderators, if you think I am causing difficulties, you need to use the report button. 

Posting personal jabs at me through your posts is against forum rules. Your posts: #421 and #422 were uncalled for and should probably be removed.


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## Bibi1031

phillybeffandswiss said:


> We will disagree. You want a research debate or further examples start another thread.


:surprise:


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Bibi1031 said:


> :surprise:


You do know we can get temporarily banned for thread jacks right? All of those questions pertain to me and my opinion not the OP. Then we will bicker about his position and definition. Even if it gives good information, it is a derail from helping the OP. Just like my current response to you.


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## MrsAldi

@camerashy how's things going at home? 
Any improvements? 


Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## Maxo

Bibi1031 said:


> Exactly! It's your opinion. I simply don't agree with it. Our views differ. That gives no one here the right to personally attack me because of my views.
> 
> I stand by what I posted. I think he is very probably cheating. by the way, I'm not the only poster that believes he may be cheating.
> You want facts to back up my opinion, observation, belief? Most of our advice is given through personal experience. You can't back everything with facts. That's absurd.
> 
> 
> OP asked for advice. She even stated that all views were accepted. She not once stated not to post unless you had proof or facts to back up your post. She didn't insult anyone by stating our posts were not accepted because they weren't backed up by reliable sources. You did though.


I have not insulted you. I merely pointed out my opinion that you have an intense dislike of men,your conclusion that he is cheating is unfounded,and that there is no support for your claim the 99 percent of folks asking for a separation are cheating.


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## Maxo

Unicus said:


> That is a really looooong paragraph.
> 
> I wonder how your clients would have responded not so much to your question of how the name calling makes them feel, but rather why they accept it?
> 
> There's little doubt that those with working ears and a functional brain feel badly when someone says unpleasant things to or about them. And, there's little doubt that any action or word used specifically to cause distress counts as abuse.
> 
> The larger issue...and the gist (grist?) of the work is determining why the person then doesn't respond in more self protective ways when subject to that abuse. That's probably related to far deeper issues and patterns than merely identifying the emotion that is aroused by such behavior and putting a label on it. Then you can help them deconstruct the cause and then reconstruct their own self image in ways that don't require their recapitulating some events or relationships from the past.


 I think the study dealt with middle school kids. So,maybe,they had not yet developed sufficient coping skills.


----------



## Maxo

Bibi1031 said:


> I don't know if these are trolls or not, but when you get personally attacked and rules are not followed, one should defend oneself and not bury our head in the sand. That's why we have moderators and the very convenient report button.
> 
> I did notice the pirate ad. Those I know better than to respond.:smile2:


Maybe you should avoid mocking people with emoticons,as their use,also,contitutes a personal attack. Stick to the issues and avoid ridiculing others. It is a bullying tactic,and abusive,IMO.


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## Bibi1031

Maxo said:


> *I have not insulted you.* I merely pointed out *my opinion that you have an intense dislike of men*,your conclusion that he is cheating is unfounded,and that there is no support for your claim the 99 percent of folks asking for a separation are cheating.



*"I have not insulted you"* :surprise:

100% wrong 

:wtf:

100% wrong opinion regarding misandry as well. :surprise::surprise:


Like Philly stated: If you wish to discuss this further, take it to PM or post a new thread. No need to derail this thread.



*Maybe you should avoid mocking people with emoticons,*[/B][/B]as their use,also,contitutes a personal attack. Stick to the issues and avoid ridiculing others. It is a bullying tactic,and abusive,IMO.[/B]

:surprise::surprise:


----------



## Maxo

Bibi1031 said:


> *"I have not insulted you"* :surprise:
> 
> 100% wrong
> 
> :wtf:
> 
> 100% wrong opinion regarding misandry as well. :surprise::surprise:
> 
> Like Philly stated: If you wish to discuss this further, take it to PM or post a new thread. No need to derail this thread.



JMHO. EMOTICONS, again? You like the ad hominem technique,IMO.


----------



## camerashy

Unicus said:


> That is a really looooong paragraph.
> 
> I wonder how your clients would have responded not so much to your question of how the name calling makes them feel, but rather why they accept it?
> 
> There's little doubt that those with working ears and a functional brain feel badly when someone says unpleasant things to or about them. And, there's little doubt that any action or word used specifically to cause distress counts as abuse.
> 
> *The larger issue...and the gist (grist?) of the work is determining why the person then doesn't respond in more self protective ways when subject to that abuse. That's probably related to far deeper issues and patterns than merely identifying the emotion that is aroused by such behavior and putting a label on it. Then you can help them deconstruct the cause and then reconstruct their own self image in ways that don't require their recapitulating some events or relationships from the past.*


 @Unicus I think this is a very common question....why stay? In abusive situations the person themselves may not know why/or at least question why they allow themselves to be subjected to abusive behavior. Often they are intelligent, logical people. It's a complex psychological thing. After my previous relationship ended, my therapist helped me to understand Battered Woman/Person Syndrome and the symptoms that I was experiencing. It took a lot of work to get me to a place where I actually felt "human," let alone ready to enter another relationship.

I wouldn't even put my H in the same category as my previous partner though.


----------



## camerashy

sparrow55 said:


> Ok, after reading some of the OP's recent posts and added details
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This guy is verbally abusive and divorce worthy.
> 
> And I don't think there is enough love in you for him due the way he treated you all these years. You do not trust him with your heart and be vulnerable with him again after all that happened and how he seems to be reacting now. In these situations, R cannot happen.
> 
> There might have been a chance to fix his issues before your kissing incident. Now, he has the ultimate trump card to continue his sh!tty behavior and not make any improvements to himself wile putting you down.


 @sparrow55 This seems to be the crux of the whole situation. How can R happen if I don't feel like I can communicate with him honestly and he is seeing the kiss as the only issue in our M? He's not willing to address any of the other issues, and given his mood right now, I'm not willing to press the issue.


----------



## camerashy

MrsAldi said:


> @camerashy how's things going at home?
> Any improvements?
> 
> 
> Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


 @MrsAldi Not good, A. Not good. I've created such a mess. H's unwilling to talk about anything but the kiss, still doesn't believe me that nothing else happened, and is now trying to "prove" that this is not an isolated incidence. Nothing I say seems to matter much. There is no communication about any other issues in our M.


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## camerashy

I just want to thank everyone for their opinions and their advice. I appreciate anyone who takes the time to comment. Some comments teach me things, some make me reflect and evaluate, and some help to grow my confidence in posting on TAM. So thanks everyone.


----------



## Slow Hand

just got it 55 said:


> Cam are you saying it was a conscious act premeditated ?
> 
> 55





camerashy said:


> @Unicus I think this is a very common question....why stay? In abusive situations the person themselves may not know why/or at least question why they allow themselves to be subjected to abusive behavior. Often they are intelligent, logical people. It's a complex psychological thing. After my previous relationship ended, my therapist helped me to understand Battered Woman/Person Syndrome and the symptoms that I was experiencing. It took a lot of work to get me to a place where I actually felt "human," let alone ready to enter another relationship.
> 
> I wouldn't even put my H in the same category as my previous partner though.


I didn't know it was as bad as it was for me until others pointed out the abuse and then my eyes were opened. It wasn't easy either, l still struggle with it, it created such a hold on me and her adultery was a silver lining in that dark cloud, as someone so astutely pointed out in another thread.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MrsAldi

camerashy said:


> @MrsAldi Not good, A. Not good. I've created such a mess. H's unwilling to talk about anything but the kiss, still doesn't believe me that nothing else happened, and is now trying to "prove" that this is not an isolated incidence. Nothing I say seems to matter much. There is no communication about any other issues in our M.


It will take him a while to forgive. 
Let him try to "prove" all he wants, if there is nothing else, he will find nothing. 
How is he trying to "prove" anyhow? 


Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## phillybeffandswiss

camerashy said:


> @MrsAldi Not good, A. Not good. I've created such a mess. H's unwilling to talk about anything but the kiss, still doesn't believe me that nothing else happened, and is now trying to "prove" that this is not an isolated incidence. Nothing I say seems to matter much. There is no communication about any other issues in our M.


Okay, I'm going to get this in now before it becomes buried. Read other threads about infidelity. Read the ones from both women and men. The one thing that happens in almost ALL of them is the betrayed becomes, angry, confused, hurt and connects dots which are valid and not. Trying to prove it was worse or there were more is a natural profession. Sorry, it just is. The betrayed is confused so, it is much easier to have an "aha" moment than actually work on the problems in the marriage. The best thing you can do is be 100% open. Don't delete emails, texts, messages, voice mails or anything EVEN if you think it can be misconstrued. Trust me, a deletion is worse than almost anything you can say, short of having some actual texts which prove an affair.

That being said, please get out of the pit you are digging for yourself. I am going to argue semantics right now. Yes, you made A MESS. Still, being uncommunicative, being angry and not communicating BEFORE the cheating is a mess he created as well. You BOTH have made "such a mess" and you both have to work on it together. Don't let your guilt, which you should feel, allow you to accept unnecessary punishment. While I do feel cheaters need to carry the weight in reconciliation, it should never be to the detriment of their physical well being or mental health. Also, it is a two way street and the betrayed doesn't get to sit back and watch the wayward fail.


----------



## Bibi1031

camerashy said:


> @MrsAldi Not good, A. Not good. I've created such a mess. H's unwilling to talk about anything but the kiss, still doesn't believe me that nothing else happened, and is now trying to "prove" that this is not an isolated incidence. *Nothing I say seems to matter much.* There is no communication about any other issues in our M.


Sadly that is something that was definitely expected. He doesn't want to throw you out again does he? 

You two don't talk much, do you do anything together like eating, watching TV etc.? Are you two living under the same roof?

What about his demands? Have you talked about those?

What about your work?


----------



## MattMatt

Maxo said:


> JMHO. EMOTICONS, again? You like the ad hominem technique,IMO.


As a point of information, emoticons are allowed by the owners of this site.


----------



## NoChoice

OP,
There is one fundamental issue that, above all else, must be settled. Do you want to save this marriage? If so, then you need to be completely transparent and open to your H. You must communicate with him as effectively as you can. He is used to dealing with a preponderance of the evidence and all you have provided him with is doubt.

As to the "abuse" as it pertains to name calling, how is that accomplished? If he calls you an idiot have you ever rationally asked him upon what basis he makes that accusation? If he calls you a b&tch, have you ever asked him rationally to explain the context in which he frames that description? If someone calls you something that is not true, that cannot be rationally substantiated, then that is nothing more than a childish outburst and not worthy of a reply.

I cannot know your H's pain or his frustration at your behavior but I can imagine. Sometimes irrational outbursts and "abusive name calling" are really an act of a desperate individual. Failing to make you understand what he is feeling with reasoned verbiage may be inciting irrational verbiage, out of frustration. That may have been carried further with the "get out" declaration, again in an effort to make you feel his angst. He may be so desperate at trying to make you understand that he has gone too far with his words and demands.

I believe that the only way to salvage this relationship is to communicate. When he speaks to you and ojnly wants to discuss the kiss, then discuss the kiss, ad nauseam if necessary, until he sees your resolve to convince him that it went no further. Remain calm and rational and answer him as many times as is necessary. Repetition is the key to learning, more so for some than for others.

Only you can know if this is something you are prepared or even capable of doing but it will need to be done if you want to save the marriage which, is again, something only you can decide to attempt, if you deem it prudent. Good fortune in your efforts.


----------



## MattMatt

NoChoice said:


> OP,
> There is one fundamental issue that, above all else, must be settled. Do you want to save this marriage? If so, then you need to be completely transparent and open to your H. You must communicate with him as effectively as you can. He is used to dealing with a preponderance of the evidence and all you have provided him with is doubt.
> 
> As to the "abuse" as it pertains to name calling, how is that accomplished? If he calls you an idiot have you ever rationally asked him upon what basis he makes that accusation? If he calls you a b&tch, have you ever asked him rationally to explain the context in which he frames that description? If someone calls you something that is not true, that cannot be rationally substantiated, then that is nothing more than a childish outburst and not worthy of a reply.
> 
> I cannot know your H's pain or his frustration at your behavior but I can imagine. Sometimes irrational outbursts and "abusive name calling" are really an act of a desperate individual. Failing to make you understand what he is feeling with reasoned verbiage may be inciting irrational verbiage, out of frustration. That may have been carried further with the "get out" declaration, again in an effort to make you feel his angst. He may be so desperate at trying to make you understand that he has gone too far with his words and demands.
> 
> I believe that the only way to salvage this relationship is to communicate. When he speaks to you and ojnly wants to discuss the kiss, then discuss the kiss, ad nauseam if necessary, until he sees your resolve to convince him that it went no further. Remain calm and rational and answer him as many times as is necessary. Repetition is the key to learning, more so for some than for others.
> 
> Only you can know if this is something you are prepared or even capable of doing but it will need to be done if you want to save the marriage which, is again, something only you can decide to attempt, if you deem it prudent. Good fortune in your efforts.


The problem is if you ask an abusive person why they are abusing you, this will be seen by them as a direct challenge to their "authority" and it will enrage them.


----------



## NoChoice

MattMatt said:


> The problem is if you ask an abusive person why they are abusing you, this will be seen by them as a direct challenge to their "authority" and it will enrage them.


Agreed, but to a severely frustrated person ignoring them has the same effect, so much so that they may even ask for a break. I simply have not been convinced that her H is the irrational, unreasonable monster that some have painted him to be.


----------



## MattMatt

NoChoice said:


> Agreed, but to a severely frustrated person ignoring them has the same effect, so much so that they may even ask for a break. I simply have not been convinced that her H is the irrational, unreasonable monster that some have painted him to be.


I just re-read Camerashy's first post:-



> Anyway, it all came to a head about a month ago, when my H said he needed a break from our marriage to sort his head out. I was pretty shocked by this…I mean we were arguing a lot, but a break? It seemed a bit extreme. But when I questioned him on it, he said that we needed time apart in order to figure out if we were compatible enough/want the same things. I went to stay with a friend for 2 weeks.


He wanted a break from the marriage. To see if they were "compatible."

*After they were married for 2 years?*  :slap:

We know what Camerashy did during that marital break.

But what did he do during it?


----------



## Bibi1031

MattMatt said:


> I just re-read Camerashy's first post:-
> 
> 
> 
> He wanted a break from the marriage. To see if they were "compatible."
> 
> But what did he do during it?


seek a more "compatible" replacement?:surprise:


----------



## MattMatt

Bibi1031 said:


> seek a more "compatible" replacement?:surprise:


Well, whatever he was doing, it was not working on the marriage.


----------



## Bibi1031

MattMatt said:


> Well, whatever he was doing, it was not working on the marriage.


100% not working on the marriage cuz he was on a BREAK!


----------



## MattMatt

Bibi1031 said:


> 100% not working on the marriage cuz he was on a BREAK!


Yes, I see.

And he doesn't accept counselling as a viable option?


----------



## Maxo

camerashy said:


> @sparrow55 This seems to be the crux of the whole situation. How can R happen if I don't feel like I can communicate with him honestly and he is seeing the kiss as the only issue in our M? He's not willing to address any of the other issues, and given his mood right now, I'm not willing to press the issue.


Why not deal with the cheating first,then move on to pre-cheating issues.
Hasn't he had only a few days to digest this?
You need to triage this,and your cheating needs to be addressed first,IMO.


----------



## Bibi1031

MattMatt said:


> Yes, I see.
> 
> And he doesn't accept counselling as a viable option?


He is above that!


----------



## Maxo

camerashy said:


> @MrsAldi Not good, A. Not good. I've created such a mess. H's unwilling to talk about anything but the kiss, still doesn't believe me that nothing else happened, and is now trying to "prove" that this is not an isolated incidence. Nothing I say seems to matter much. There is no communication about any other issues in our M.


Polygraph?


----------



## Bibi1031

Maxo said:


> Polygraph?


for which Party?


----------



## Maxo

MattMatt said:


> I just re-read Camerashy's first post:-
> 
> 
> 
> He wanted a break from the marriage. To see if they were "compatible."
> 
> *After they were married for 2 years?*  :slap:
> 
> We know what Camerashy did during that marital break.
> 
> But what did he do during it?


Seems like a rational rquest for a break. Nothing abusive about that.

And,here's an idea: why not try to track down the guy you were groping and kissing. Your husband could question him,if the guy is willing.


----------



## Maxo

Bibi1031 said:


> for which Party?


Camera,the one who cheated0


----------



## Bibi1031

Maxo said:


> Camera,the one who cheated0


I see, the only one of the two parties that confessed...and on a public forum none the less


----------



## Maxo

Bibi1031 said:


> seek a more "compatible" replacement?:surprise:


A virtual certainty,just like the 99 percent deal:sleeping:


----------



## Maxo

Bibi1031 said:


> I see, the only one of the two parties that confessed...and on a public forum none the less


Exactly,the one that desires to prove it only went so far:fro::smcowboy::allhail:


----------



## Bibi1031

Maxo said:


> A virtual certainty,just like the 99 percent deal:sleeping:


Indeed, now you know where it came from :wink2:


----------



## Maxo

Camera,can you locate the other guy,so your husband can inquire of him?


----------



## Bibi1031

Maxo said:


> Exactly,the one that desires to prove it only went so far:fro::smcowboy::allhail:


Would it make a difference if it went further? (not to me, of course)

Would the end result be the same? (yes for me, of course)

for her husband? (he is 100% certain it went further)

Would a poly make a difference if it was he that took it? (of course! I need that extra 1% certainty, but I'm not waiting for it standing up :wink2


----------



## Maxo

Bibi1031 said:


> Would it make a difference if it went further? (not to me, of course)
> 
> Would the end result be the same? (yes for me, of course)
> 
> for her husband? (he is 100% certain it went further)
> 
> Would a poly make a difference if it was he that took it? (of course! I need that extra 1% certainty, but I'm not waiting for it standing up :wink2


Why would she want him to take a poly? She has no suspicion he has cheated:smthumbup::redcard::fro::smcowboy::fish:


----------



## Bibi1031

Maxo said:


> Out of an orifice,I expect:smthumbup::woohoo:


:crazy:


----------



## Bibi1031

Maxo said:


> Why would she want him to take a poly? She has no suspicion he has cheated:smthumbup::redcard::fro::smcowboy::fish:


Oh, I beg to differ...go back and check. You will find where she surely did...(hint) for a split second, but she did.:grin2:


----------



## MattMatt

Maxo said:


> Seems like a rational rquest for a break. Nothing abusive about that.
> 
> And,here's an idea: why not try to track down the guy you were groping and kissing. Your husband could question him,if the guy is willing.


As ideas on TAM go there might have been a less helpful suggestion. Maybe.

And I did not say request for a break was abusive. I just thought it odd.

Like something on the Jeremy Kyle Show. Not two middle class Brits with the hubby a solicitor.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Maxo

Homeless? Not like out on the street homeless,right?


----------



## Maxo

notmyrealname4 said:


> Well, relying on the good will of a friend isn't exactly the most secure domestic situation. After two weeks, you know that you'll be wearing out your welcome pretty soon.
> 
> Why should a married person not be allowed access to the family home? Why should she be reduced to hitting up a friend for a place to stay?
> 
> No, she wasn't living in a cardboard box. Is that what it would take for her husband's actions to be considered abusive?


I do not know. What do you think?


----------



## knobcreek

Maxo said:


> Why not deal with the cheating first,then move on to pre-cheating issues.


+1

If he catches you cheating and then all the sudden you come up with a litany of reasons why he's terrible it just looks like deflecting from the cheating.

Bottom line is within a week or two of your husband wanting space to think about the marriage, you were making out with a stranger in a club and letting him feel you up. That is really the first thing that needs to be resolved, then work the rest out in therapy. If you want to stay married that is.


----------



## Maxo

MattMatt said:


> As ideas on TAM go there might have been a less helpful suggestion. Maybe.
> 
> And I did not say request for a break was abusive. I just thought it odd.
> 
> Like something on the Jeremy Kyle Show. Not two middle class Brits with the hubby a solicitor.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh,odd. How distressing for you.:iagree::toast::fro::cat:


----------



## camerashy

MrsAldi said:


> It will take him a while to forgive.
> Let him try to "prove" all he wants, if there is nothing else, he will find nothing.
> How is he trying to "prove" anyhow?
> 
> 
> Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


 @MrsAldi I definitely understand that forgiveness is not going to happen overnight, or possibly even ever. There is nothing for him to find...he's checked social media, email, contact lists...everything. Now he is in an even worse mood. It's almost like it pisses him off that there's nothing to find.



Bibi1031 said:


> Sadly that is something that was definitely expected. He doesn't want to throw you out again does he?
> 
> You two don't talk much, do you do anything together like eating, watching TV etc.? Are you two living under the same roof?
> 
> What about his demands? Have you talked about those?
> 
> What about your work?


 @bibi1013 We are under the same roof, but he's disappearing a lot (he has a few friends that live close). He's trying to catch me doing something though, cause he will say he'll be back at whatever time and turn up an hour or so earlier. Not a lot of talking going on, but I understand that needs some space right now. I actually think I kind of do, as well. R.e his demands, I told him I would agree to the ones that I posted on here, but not the others. We argued. It's not getting any easier, but I'm not expecting it to for some time.



MattMatt said:


> Yes, I see.
> 
> And he doesn't accept counselling as a viable option?


 @MattMatt He thinks that "MC is ridiculous." Direct quote. I have asked him again though and I told him that it's something that's really important to me. I'll keep you posted on how that goes.



Maxo said:


> Why not deal with the cheating first,then move on to pre-cheating issues.
> Hasn't he had only a few days to digest this?
> You need to triage this,and your cheating needs to be addressed first,IMO.


 @Maxo I get that. I just hope at some point he will be able to address them.



Maxo said:


> Polygraph?


 @Maxo I offered to, and he laughed.


----------



## GusPolinski

Either your husband is a first-class whack job or he's cheating.

Maybe both.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## camerashy

Maxo said:


> Camera,can you locate the other guy,so your husband can inquire of him?


 @Maxo I don't know if that's a good idea.


----------



## aine

notmyrealname4 said:


> You were supportive of your husband's work predicament. I don't know why it's suggested you weren't.
> 
> Your job assignment during that time was arranged months prior. IIRC, your husband agreed that you should still go, correct?
> 
> And if your husband considers the family home "his", and can tell you to leave whenever he wants: I wouldn't be turning down any opportunities to make your own money.
> 
> So, I don't know where the idea is coming from that you suddenly abandoned him in his hour of need.
> 
> This next question, I'm asking again. Maybe it's moot now, ("how long is a piece of string") BUT, what *exactly* happened with bar guy. I mean physically what took place, the nitty-gritty please. You're both talking, he leans in for a lips only kiss, while his hand is on your chest somewhere? Or, a deep, wet prolonged kiss and his hands are holding your breasts for a minute or two? Or, did YOU put his hands on your chest?
> 
> I DO grade cheating. If it was brushing together of lips and his hand just skims over your top briefly; then you pull away; that is the error of a moment (basically meaningless). If it was more, and you encouraged him; that means you have weak boundaries and that's an issue. I still have leniency for you though, since your husband asked you to leave your home. And I know from experience (family of origin), what it's like to be suddenly homeless, out of nowhere, for even a couple of nights. It alters your perception dramatically. You start clutching at straws of support and safety.
> 
> So, your husband is an attorney; but he can't censor his own thoughts before speaking. A disastrous combination. I imagine he has workplace "difficulties". My H has been fired for these same issues; telling people at work exactly what he thinks of them. And I learned that nothing I said as advice, or counsel, or warning was ever taken to heart by him. We went through some scary times financially when he was jobless for shooting his mouth off. He had the same types of issues at subsequent jobs; rubbing people the wrong way for verbal sledgehammers.
> 
> Just wanted to say, I'm familiar with the territory, and I know how verbally callous and tactless people like this can be.
> 
> I'm offering some support and sympathy. Remember, a lot of these guys accusing you of the worst sort of infidelity, may have no problems at all with married men getting lap dances at strip clubs, so don't be too intimidated by some of the shaming that's been attempted.
> 
> *I can't shake the perception that your husband has something to hide. What semi-caring spouse orders a "break", and leaves their partner without a home; for an indefinite (?) time; while insisting on the highest moral conduct from the spouse that they are rendering homeless?*


*

*

This! That is why I say CS you have to dig deeper. Your H is putting up a smokescreen and seems like he has major issues with interpersonal skills on every level. Yes, you had an indiscretion, (your bad) but don't let him use this to rug sweep everything else.

YOU should go to MC, invite him but if he doesn't want to go, go alone.


----------



## camerashy

GusPolinski said:


> Either your husband is a first-class whack job or he's cheating.
> 
> Maybe both.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 @GusPolinski What makes you think that?


----------



## aine

I definitely understand that forgiveness is not going to happen overnight, or possibly even ever. There is nothing for him to find...he's checked social media, email, contact lists...everything. Now he is in an even worse mood. It's almost like it pisses him off that there's nothing to find.


Your comment. These are not the actions of a loving husband or even a H who has been cheated on. These are the actions of a man, who himself has cheated but wants to put the blame on you.........red flags all over

Other red flags
1. He disappears a lot
2. He picked fights with you when you came back from business trip
3. He calls you names
4. He asked you to move out - no real reasons given
5. He refuses to engage with you and wants a break from the marriage
6. He has basically set you adrift before you cheated
7. he accuses you of many things, no support, blah blah blah but then refuses to actually talk with you about the problems

Listen to your gut. I believe it was telling you before this that something was wrong, you have grappled with this for some time and did what you did because something was not right. I believe he has cheated or is still cheating. Go stealth mode and see what he is up to.

Everyone is talking about what you should do because you cheated. But we must look at the scenario before that. By being into reconciliation you are playing into his hands. He is not meeting you half way, you owe him nothing. Start the 180 immediately.


----------



## GusPolinski

camerashy said:


> @GusPolinski What makes you think that?


Mostly my ability to read. :rofl:

To be fair, though, I'm not completely caught up, so I'll do that before commenting again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## camerashy

GusPolinski said:


> Mostly my ability to read. :rofl:
> 
> To be fair, though, I'm not completely caught up, so I'll do that before commenting again.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 @GusPolinski I wasn't making a dig, I was genuinely curious. I have seen your posts in here and in other threads and I think you are an astute person.


----------



## GusPolinski

camerashy said:


> @GusPolinski *I wasn't making a dig*, I was genuinely curious. I have seen your posts in here and in other threads and I think you are an astute person.


Didn't come across like that at all.

I realize what's at stake here, so I don't say these things lightly.

Back to reading.

(And thanks for the kind words.)


----------



## camerashy

aine said:


> Your comment. These are not the actions of a loving husband or even a H who has been cheated on. These are the actions of a man, who himself has cheated but wants to put the blame on you.........red flags all over
> 
> Other red flags
> 1. He disappears a lot
> 2. He picked fights with you when you came back from business trip
> 3. He calls you names
> 4. He asked you to move out - no real reasons given
> 5. He refuses to engage with you and wants a break from the marriage
> 6. He has basically set you adrift before you cheated
> 7. he accuses you of many things, no support, blah blah blah but then refuses to actually talk with you about the problems
> 
> Listen to your gut. I believe it was telling you before this that something was wrong, you have grappled with this for some time and did what you did because something was not right. I believe he has cheated or is still cheating. Go stealth mode and see what he is up to.
> 
> Everyone is talking about what you should do because you cheated. But we must look at the scenario before that. By being into reconciliation you are playing into his hands. He is not meeting you half way, you owe him nothing. Start the 180 immediately.


 @aine The problem is that I feel too guilty to go snooping on him or do 180. I feel like... I don't really have the right to do that.


----------



## Bibi1031

GusPolinski said:


> Either your husband is a first-class whack job or he's cheating.
> 
> Maybe both.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


99% sure...it's both


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

camerashy said:


> The problem is that I feel too guilty to go snooping on him or do 180. I feel like... I don't really have the right to do that.


Honestly, sounds like he is trying to do his version of the 180 to you. Your guilt can be worsened later, but if you feel you need to check do so. Rights? Meh.. He wanted a break, while I believe it is less insidious and a purposeful use of the word, I can see why some feel it is because he is cheating.

Just be EXTREMELY careful while you check. 

I'm curious, you do photo shoots, what type and does that have anything to do with his jealousy and mate guarding actions?


----------



## farsidejunky

camerashy said:


> @aine The problem is that I feel too guilty to go snooping on him or do 180. I feel like... I don't really have the right to do that.


I am also with Gus, Aine and Bibi on this.

Guilt?

If he wasn't sure if you were compatible, why is he upset over your making out with someone?

I think he is a controlling jerk with plenty to hide. Start digging.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## GusPolinski

camerashy said:


> @aine The problem is that I feel too guilty to go snooping on him or do 180. I feel like... I don't really have the right to do that.


A refusal to do a bit of discrete sleuthing will accomplish little more than prolonging your agony by keeping you in limbo.

Many will disagree w/ this statement (and that's fine, as said disagreement is usually rooted in a certain obstinate naiveté), but I'll say it every time --

_Each and every one of us is absolutely entitled to the truth w/ respect to our partner's fidelity, and that's even if getting to the truth -- *ESPECIALLY when you're being hit w/ more red flags than you'll see in your typical Chinese military parade* -- requires some less-than-above-board means._ After all, it's nothing short of foolish for one to believe that a wayward spouse is going to cop to either actively cheating or having cheated in the past (and that's whether or not they're asked directly), and it's just as foolish to think that someone engaged in such activity, while actively taking steps to conceal it, is going to be caught by someone that refuses to do a bit of digging. (This does happen from time to time, but it requires a certain degree of sloppiness on the part of the wayward.)

Seriously... if there were a Spouses' Bill of Rights, I'd be lobbying to have ^this^ added to it.

And, if you'll pardon my language, you absolutely have the right to go full 180 on his ass.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## camerashy

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Honestly, sounds like he is trying to do his version of the 180 to you. Your guilt can be worsened later, but if you feel you need to check do so. Rights? Meh.. He wanted a break, while I believe it is less insidious and a purposeful use of the word, I can see why some feel it is because he is cheating.
> 
> Just be EXTREMELY careful while you check.
> 
> I'm curious, you do photo shoots, what type and does that have anything to do with his jealousy and mate guarding actions?


 @phillybeffandswiss Mostly landscape these days - for websites, magazines etc. When my H and I got together, I was doing a lot more work locally (weddings etc) which was a bigger workload for less money. Perhaps an underlying issue for him is that I go away for longer periods of time now - I didn't really think about that...as he has always been onboard with my job. He always said he preferred me going away for work because I spent more time at home overall.

Yeah, I'm not sure about digging around in his personal space. It never even crossed my mind that he could be cheating. He works long days and our sex life was really good. I don't know where he would find the time.


----------



## camerashy

@farsidejunky @GusPolinski @phillybeffandswiss Well, how does one "discreetly" go about this? I have never snooped on a person in my life.


----------



## GusPolinski

camerashy said:


> @phillybeffandswiss Mostly landscape these days - for websites, magazines etc. When my H and I got together, I was doing a lot more work locally (weddings etc) which was a bigger workload for less money. Perhaps an underlying issue for him is that I go away for longer periods of time now - I didn't really think about that...as he has always been onboard with my job. He always said he preferred me going away for work because I spent more time at home overall.
> 
> Yeah, I'm not sure about digging around in his personal space. It never even crossed my mind that he could be cheating. *He works long days and our sex life was really good. I don't know where he would find the time.*


Workplace affairs seem to be quite common these days.

And besides, hasn't he been disappearing a lot of late?

Also, he liked it when you worked away from home...?

Hmm...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

camerashy said:


> @farsidejunky @GusPolinski @phillybeffandswiss Well, how does one "discreetly" go about this? I have never snooped on a person in my life.


Start looking through @weightlifter's "Standard Evidence Post" thread here in the CWI forum to get started.

What kind of phone does your husband use?

Does he use a tablet? If so, what kind?

How about computers? What kind? And does he have separate computers for work and personal use?

What does he do for work?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

camerashy said:


> I don't know where he would find the time.


People make time.


----------



## GusPolinski

phillybeffandswiss said:


> People make time.


Exactly.

It's sex, not a book club, bridge group, or knitting circle.

People tend to _make time_ for sex, especially sex that they shouldn't be having.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

camerashy said:


> @phillybeffandswiss Mostly landscape these days - for websites, magazines etc. When my H and I got together, I was doing a lot more work locally (weddings etc) which was a bigger workload for less money. Perhaps an underlying issue for him is that I go away for longer periods of time now - I didn't really think about that...as he has always been onboard with my job. He always said he preferred me going away for work because I spent more time at home overall.
> 
> Yeah, I'm not sure about digging around in his personal space. It never even crossed my mind that he could be cheating. He works long days and our sex life was really good. I don't know where he would find the time.


Oh, they find the time if they want to.

Workplace affairs can be hard to identify.

There IS something wrong at hubby's workplace.

Why would someone make up a story about your husband? Jealousy because he was having an affair with someone else?

Your husband might have convinced himself that you MUST be cheating to justify his own bad behaviour.

The man you met I'm the nightclub. Could it have been a set up? Is it possible he slipped something into your drink and targeted you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

GusPolinski said:


> Start looking through @weightlifter's "Standard Evidence Post" thread here in the CWI forum to get started.
> 
> What kind of phone does your husband use?
> 
> Does he use a tablet? If so, what kind?
> 
> How about computers? What kind? And does he have separate computers for work and personal use?
> 
> What does he do for work?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think he is a Solicitor/lawyer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

Maxo said:


> Oh,odd. How distressing for you.:iagree::toast::fro::cat:


You need to be aware that there are language differences between posters from different parts of the world. 

Perhaps you do not understand the use of the word "odd" in this context?

You might also like to stop trying to be clever at the expense of other TAM members with your posts.

Because it is actually coming over as being petulant and rude.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NoChoice

OP,
If you are not yet convinced that your H is cheating you will be by the end of this thread. I have a question for you to ponder. If an abuser, one who delights in their control, power and dominance over their abusee, is given a choice to continue being abusive or to voluntarily let go of the situation which feeds them, which choice do you believe they would take?

I have read many many accounts of people finally "getting away" from their abusers and yet your "abuser" suggested it as a course of action. Interesting.

Additionally, if an attorney was ill tempered and so lacking in self control how long would it be before he found himself in contempt of court? And found his career in ruins as no firm would be willing to risk his insolence?

I feel that what you are dealing with is a man in a high stress occupation (long hours and dire consequences) who had his integrity questioned and was surprised to see the lack of support from his spouse. I also believe that he may have harbored suspicions about your away trips for work and that, combined with the lack of support raised his frustration level such that he actually began to question your compatibility. Then, as an added bonus, less than two weeks into the "break" you cheated. Does his response really sound so extraordinary?

Also, in regards to his "workplace affair", let us keep in mind that there was at least one other man implicated in this alleged "tryst". So it would be more akin to a workplace threesome or orgy. Or perhaps this woman was like the coffee cart lady going from office to office doling out "favors". Possible but highly unlikely.

Having been in your H's shoes I can relate to his frustration and his desperation. Removing oneself from a maddening situation is sometimes necessary for one's sanity and to clear the mind of the extraneous mental flotsam so as to be able to clearly and objectively evaluate the situation, in this case your compatibility. It is indeed unfortunate that you did what you did during that time as it no doubt added fuel to the already flaming fire.

I also feel that if your H was having an affair and was done with your marriage he would show less concern over your cheating and more indifference and, if he truly wanted you gone, as a divorce and family law attorney he is in an advantaged position to make that happen. Why hasn't he?

It is my opinion that what your H wants is your unwavering devotion and loyalty and solid proof of same. Only you can decide if that is something you are capable of/willing to offer(ing).

What I see is a hard working dedicated man who has been sorely disappointed in his spouse, for whom he cares deeply and is reacting as such.

And lastly shall we consider that this abusive monster, who demanded that you leave your home, has now "allowed" you back into it. Perhaps he was more than a little shocked that you left in the first place. Just things to consider.


----------



## Leonor

I definitely do see some abusive tendencies in him (like the name calling) that are absolutely not ok and need to addressed.

However, in many ways I tend to agree with NoChoice. I'm not judging you since anyone who went through what you went through would probably react the same, but your tone towards him feels very detached. You say you love him but at the same time you don't like any public display of affection for him, thought he was very childish during a time that must have been very trying for him and kissed some random guy publicly whilst at the same time rejecting any public advances from your husband.

Maybe what he looks for is real affection/interest/passion/adoration from you and the fact that he doesn't get is the reason why he is throwing his toys of the pram, just to get some sort of authentic reaction?


He had no right to throw you out of your home or call you names, but there are some things in your postings that make me thing that maybe rather than being a complete abusive ******* he is just basically begging for some real emotion from you? I'm not saying you are cold (because I don't think you are) but maybe some of the coping techniques you learned after your traumatic experience are not the perfect tool for this relationship and come across as disinterested and checked out?


You two seem like an unlikely match anyway. How long have you been together and how did you meet? What is he like in general, does he have any redeeming qualities? Is he generous and caring?


----------



## italianjob

This one's quite hard for me...

On one hand, from the beginning, I'm perceiving this just like Gus...

I've seen quite a few cases of "breaks" some in real life, some online. In my experience, with no exception, someone else was lurking in the shadow of that request... So much that I always tought that in the sentence "I need space" you could substitute the word "space" with "some strange" with little fear of error.

I must say, through this may be perceived as sexist, that, in my experience, it was always the woman asking space to the man, so this is the first time I see a man asking space to a woman. Maybe men mentality is different, but I have no reason to think so...

But really this does sound strange, I mean I wouldn't ask my wife, in any case, to get out of the house without having satisfying informations that she would be safe for the entire time I needed her out. It sounds like the husband cared very little for the wife.

On the other hand it sounds like a test that camerashy failed big time. He always complained that the OP was unaffectionate in public and less than a handful of week out of the house she's making out with someone else in public? If I was him I would be furious and the drunk and "he listened" excuses wouldn't cut the cheese. I also wouldn't believe the "nothing else happened" bit, if I was him, I would think "she can't even keep her panties on for one month".

Anyway, Affair on his part or Mega **** Test, what I think is clear here is that he decided a month ago he wanted a divorce and now he's working on assigning the "bad guy " role, IMO.


----------



## Rubix Cubed

camerashy said:


> @aine The problem is that I feel too guilty to go snooping on him or do 180. I feel like... I don't really have the right to do that.


 If he is cheating then this is the whole point of his actions toward you. To intimidate you enough so you won't look into anything, and keep you under his thumb. If he is not you'll have piece of mind about that if you do a little investigating. 
My opinion is, if he's not, then he's got some serious issues to deal with, as well as you. 
@camerashy, you've been asked a few times if you "really want to save the marriage" , but I haven't seen a resolute, clear answer. If you don't , even with your indiscretion/cheating, you have plenty of reason to move on with your life. In the end it's your call.


----------



## Maxo

MattMatt said:


> You need to be aware that there are language differences between posters from different parts of the world.
> 
> Perhaps you do not understand the use of the word "odd" in this context?
> 
> You might also like to stop trying to be clever at the expense of other TAM members with your posts.
> 
> Because it is actually coming over as being petulant and rude.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Will take it under advisement. You might want to do the same.


----------



## Bibi1031

NoChoice said:


> OP,
> If you are not yet convinced that your H is cheating you will be by the end of this thread. I have a question for you to ponder. If an abuser, one who delights in their control, power and dominance over their abusee, is given a choice to continue being abusive or to voluntarily let go of the situation which feeds them, which choice do you believe they would take?
> 
> *I have read many many accounts of people finally "getting away" from their abusers and yet your "abuser" suggested it as a course of action. Interesting.*
> 
> Additionally, if an attorney was ill tempered and so lacking in self control how long would it be before he found himself in contempt of court? And found his career in ruins as no firm would be willing to risk his insolence?
> 
> I feel that what you are dealing with is a man in a high stress occupation (long hours and dire consequences) who had his integrity questioned and was surprised to see the lack of support from his spouse. I also believe that he may have harbored suspicions about your away trips for work and that, combined with the lack of support raised his frustration level such that he actually began to question your compatibility. Then, as an added bonus, less than two weeks into the "break" you cheated. Does his response really sound so extraordinary?
> 
> Also, in regards to his "workplace affair", let us keep in mind that there was at least one other man implicated in this alleged "tryst". So it would be more akin to a workplace threesome or orgy. Or perhaps this woman was like the coffee cart lady going from office to office doling out "favors". Possible but highly unlikely.
> 
> Having been in your H's shoes I can relate to his frustration and his desperation. Removing oneself from a maddening situation is sometimes necessary for one's sanity and to clear the mind of the extraneous mental flotsam so as to be able to clearly and objectively evaluate the situation, in this case your compatibility. It is indeed unfortunate that you did what you did during that time as it no doubt added fuel to the already flaming fire.
> 
> I also feel that if your H was having an affair and was done with your marriage *he would show less concern over your cheating and more indifference* and, if he truly wanted you gone, as a divorce and family law attorney he is in an advantaged position to make that happen. Why hasn't he?
> 
> *It is my opinion that what your H wants is your unwavering devotion and loyalty and solid proof of same. *Only you can decide if that is something you are capable of/willing to offer(ing).
> 
> What I see is a hard working dedicated man who has been sorely disappointed in his spouse, for whom he cares deeply and is reacting as such.
> 
> *And lastly shall we consider that this abusive monster, who demanded that you leave your home, has now "allowed" you back into it.* Perhaps he was more than a little shocked that you left in the first place. Just things to consider.


*I have read many many accounts of people finally "getting away" from their abusers and yet your "abuser" suggested it as a course of action. Interesting.*

Interesting indeed, but not at all uncommon though. This is not your ordinary run of the mill sicko NoChoice. This type of abuser has two major basic needs/fuels (control and anger) that make him very scary. He wants total control and he has major anger issues. He set her free because she was broken, or so he thought. She was of no use to him anymore. When an abuser's control or anger is no longer fueled, it's time to toss the prey and seek another fuel source. 

These people don't love, that would be giving up CONTROL. Her transgression refueled that anger again. How dare she! She was nothing when I tossed her out. I could yank her chain and she was supposed to come back begging for me to take her back. His plan B didn't comply!


*he would show less concern over your cheating and more indifference*

Again, not your ordinary run of the mill sicko here. 


*It is my opinion that what your H wants is your unwavering devotion and loyalty and solid proof of same. *

:iagree: 100%


But for very detrimental reasons to her as a free, healthy, strong and capable individual.


*And lastly shall we consider that this abusive monster, who demanded that you leave your home, has now "allowed" you back into it.*

Again, a basic fuel for him (anger) that he can get from her is now available until he breaks her or she sets herself free.

Now this type of person doesn't kill his prey or mangles them physically, he just breaks his prey and then the prey is useless to him and is tossed out like a carcass. You may think this doesn't make sense, but it is quite common. It's not the prey that breaks free most of the time, it's the sicko that tosses them out!

I was hoping to be wrong as no one wants this type of ending to a marriage you enter thinking it's out of love by both parties. The person marrying an individual like this is deceived since the very beginning . The sad truth is that you don't know until the breaking process begins or ends...very very sad.


----------



## Maxo

GusPolinski said:


> Either your husband is a first-class whack job or he's cheating.
> 
> Maybe both.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Or,this story is,gradually,being embellished.


----------



## Maxo

camerashy said:


> @Maxo I don't know if that's a good idea.



What is the downside?


----------



## Maxo

farsidejunky said:


> I am also with Gus, Aine and Bibi on this.
> 
> Guilt?
> 
> If he wasn't sure if you were compatible, why is he upset over your making out with someone?
> 
> I think he is a controlling jerk with plenty to hide. Start digging.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I do not see why questioning compatibility would preclude expecting fidelity. Must have missed that caveat in my vows.


----------



## Maxo

NoChoice said:


> OP,
> If you are not yet convinced that your H is cheating you will be by the end of this thread. I have a question for you to ponder. If an abuser, one who delights in their control, power and dominance over their abusee, is given a choice to continue being abusive or to voluntarily let go of the situation which feeds them, which choice do you believe they would take?
> 
> I have read many many accounts of people finally "getting away" from their abusers and yet your "abuser" suggested it as a course of action. Interesting.
> 
> Additionally, if an attorney was ill tempered and so lacking in self control how long would it be before he found himself in contempt of court? And found his career in ruins as no firm would be willing to risk his insolence?
> 
> I feel that what you are dealing with is a man in a high stress occupation (long hours and dire consequences) who had his integrity questioned and was surprised to see the lack of support from his spouse. I also believe that he may have harbored suspicions about your away trips for work and that, combined with the lack of support raised his frustration level such that he actually began to question your compatibility. Then, as an added bonus, less than two weeks into the "break" you cheated. Does his response really sound so extraordinary?
> 
> Also, in regards to his "workplace affair", let us keep in mind that there was at least one other man implicated in this alleged "tryst". So it would be more akin to a workplace threesome or orgy. Or perhaps this woman was like the coffee cart lady going from office to office doling out "favors". Possible but highly unlikely.
> 
> Having been in your H's shoes I can relate to his frustration and his desperation. Removing oneself from a maddening situation is sometimes necessary for one's sanity and to clear the mind of the extraneous mental flotsam so as to be able to clearly and objectively evaluate the situation, in this case your compatibility. It is indeed unfortunate that you did what you did during that time as it no doubt added fuel to the already flaming fire.
> 
> I also feel that if your H was having an affair and was done with your marriage he would show less concern over your cheating and more indifference and, if he truly wanted you gone, as a divorce and family law attorney he is in an advantaged position to make that happen. Why hasn't he?
> 
> It is my opinion that what your H wants is your unwavering devotion and loyalty and solid proof of same. Only you can decide if that is something you are capable of/willing to offer(ing).
> 
> What I see is a hard working dedicated man who has been sorely disappointed in his spouse, for whom he cares deeply and is reacting as such.
> 
> And lastly shall we consider that this abusive monster, who demanded that you leave your home, has now "allowed" you back into it. Perhaps he was more than a little shocked that you left in the first place. Just things to consider.


You raise some excellent points. You must be good at trial.


----------



## Bibi1031

Maxo said:


> Or,this story is,gradually,being embellished.


sadly very true too around these online parts.

May have even started as a figment of someone's imagination. 

I wish some of the IRL experiences I have come across were indeed a hoax; sadly that doesn't happen IRL in my neck of the woods...:crying:


----------



## Maxo

Bibi1031 said:


> *I have read many many accounts of people finally "getting away" from their abusers and yet your "abuser" suggested it as a course of action. Interesting.*
> 
> Interesting indeed, but not at all uncommon though. This is not your ordinary run of the mill sicko NoChoice. This type of abuser has two major basic needs/fuels (control and anger) that make him very scary. He wants total control and he has major anger issues. He set her free because she was broken, or so he thought. She was of no use to him anymore. When an abuser's control or anger is no longer fueled, it's time to toss the prey and seek another fuel source.
> 
> These people don't love, that would be giving up CONTROL. Her transgression refueled that anger again. How dare she! She was nothing when I tossed her out. I could yank her chain and she was supposed to come back begging for me to take her back. His plan B didn't comply!
> 
> 
> *he would show less concern over your cheating and more indifference*
> 
> Again, not your ordinary run of the mill sicko here.
> 
> 
> *It is my opinion that what your H wants is your unwavering devotion and loyalty and solid proof of same. *
> 
> :iagree: 100%
> 
> 
> But for very detrimental reasons to her as a free, healthy, strong and capable individual.
> 
> 
> *And lastly shall we consider that this abusive monster, who demanded that you leave your home, has now "allowed" you back into it.*
> 
> Again, a basic fuel for him (anger) that he can get from her is now available until he breaks her or she sets herself free.
> 
> Now this type of person doesn't kill his prey or mangles them physically, he just breaks his prey and then the prey is useless to him and is tossed out like a carcass. You may think this doesn't make sense, but it is quite common. It's not the prey that breaks free most of the time, it's the sicko that tosses them out!
> 
> I was hoping to be wrong as no one wants this type of ending to a marriage you enter thinking it's out of love by both parties. The person marrying an individual like this is deceived since the very beginning . The sad truth is that you don't know until the breaking process begins or ends...very very sad.


I do not think you have enough first hand evidence for all this speculation.


----------



## Bibi1031

Maxo said:


> I do not think you have enough first hand evidence for all this speculation.


Honestly, I could care less. You do, since you have to try and tear it down.:x


----------



## MattMatt

Maxo said:


> Will take it under advisement. You might want to do the same.


Right.


----------



## camerashy

Maxo said:


> What is the downside?


 @Maxo I just don't see my H ever seeing how me contacting the OM is a good thing.


----------



## MattMatt

camerashy said:


> @Maxo I just don't see my H ever seeing how me contacting the OM is a good thing.


I agree. It would be a very dangerous idea.

Which might be by Maxo suggested it? :scratchhead:


----------



## camerashy

NoChoice said:


> OP,
> If you are not yet convinced that your H is cheating you will be by the end of this thread. I have a question for you to ponder. If an abuser, one who delights in their control, power and dominance over their abusee, is given a choice to continue being abusive or to voluntarily let go of the situation which feeds them, which choice do you believe they would take?
> 
> I have read many many accounts of people finally "getting away" from their abusers and yet your "abuser" suggested it as a course of action. Interesting.
> 
> Additionally, if an attorney was ill tempered and so lacking in self control how long would it be before he found himself in contempt of court? And found his career in ruins as no firm would be willing to risk his insolence?
> 
> I feel that what you are dealing with is a man in a high stress occupation (long hours and dire consequences) who had his integrity questioned and was surprised to see the lack of support from his spouse. I also believe that he may have harbored suspicions about your away trips for work and that, combined with the lack of support raised his frustration level such that he actually began to question your compatibility. Then, as an added bonus, less than two weeks into the "break" you cheated. Does his response really sound so extraordinary?
> 
> Also, in regards to his "workplace affair", let us keep in mind that there was at least one other man implicated in this alleged "tryst". So it would be more akin to a workplace threesome or orgy. Or perhaps this woman was like the coffee cart lady going from office to office doling out "favors". Possible but highly unlikely.
> 
> Having been in your H's shoes I can relate to his frustration and his desperation. Removing oneself from a maddening situation is sometimes necessary for one's sanity and to clear the mind of the extraneous mental flotsam so as to be able to clearly and objectively evaluate the situation, in this case your compatibility. It is indeed unfortunate that you did what you did during that time as it no doubt added fuel to the already flaming fire.
> 
> I also feel that if your H was having an affair and was done with your marriage he would show less concern over your cheating and more indifference and, if he truly wanted you gone, as a divorce and family law attorney he is in an advantaged position to make that happen. Why hasn't he?
> 
> It is my opinion that what your H wants is your unwavering devotion and loyalty and solid proof of same. Only you can decide if that is something you are capable of/willing to offer(ing).
> 
> What I see is a hard working dedicated man who has been sorely disappointed in his spouse, for whom he cares deeply and is reacting as such.
> 
> And lastly shall we consider that this abusive monster, who demanded that you leave your home, has now "allowed" you back into it. Perhaps he was more than a little shocked that you left in the first place. Just things to consider.


 @NoChoice An abuser would continue to exert their control over the victim...the grip gets tighter, not more loose...I've been there before and I know exactly what that situation is like.

But then... not once have I called my H an abuser. I said that he can be verbally abusive (other's may not agree, but those people aren't in my situation), but I never said he was an abusive monster.

And I could have been more supportive over the work issue... but I don't think it was wrong of me to ask questions. I wasn't going to nod my head and say, "Yes darling, she's an evil, manipulative cow." Not when she clearly has issues. Perhaps if he had given me more than footnotes, I could have been more supportive. There are two sides to the situation. And forgive me if I'm reeling from the fact that the whole situation resulted in him asking me to leave. 

In my book, you don't ask your W for a break, ask her to leave and then expect her not to go. That's game playing. And he seemed serious in wanting that time to sort his head out.

I did an incredibly ****ty thing, I know that. God, do I know that. But I'm really struggling to see how I could have supported him better, how to deal with him better etc....when my H and I both have different definitions of the words.

Apologies in advance @NoChoice as I'm not deliberately taking a dig at what you are saying, I genuinely appreciate having a different perspective to look at the situation from. I'm just presenting my side of the coin, if this happens to be how my H is looking at the situation as well.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Can you please detail what exactly happened when he asked you to leave?


----------



## camerashy

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Can you please detail what exactly happened when he asked you to leave?


 @phillybeffandswiss It was the day after a big argument. He had just got home from work and he mentioned that things weren't going very well between us and I agreed. I didn't know how to fix it and he said that he felt that our fighting was just getting worse and he needed some space to get his head around that. I asked what space we were talking about and he said he thought that we should go on a break for a little while, we needed to see if we were just too different, too incompatible for our M to work. I was like, "well isn't this something you're supposed to figure out before you marry them? I obviously don't think we're too different or else I wouldn't have married you." Opposites attract and all that. And he was saying that there was that, but people change when that initial "honeymoon period" is over and he didn't see this much conflict being part of the equation. He said he needed to clear his head and he couldn't do that with us occupying the same space. He needed to get over the work stuff, and work out if he really wanted to be there or whether he should move on. I said that I thought it was a really bad idea and that we should be trying to work this out together and he said we've tried that and it's not working, couples do it all the time, it's no big deal. I said that I didn't feel comfortable with that and we argued for a bit, brought up lots of past issues etc, I'm not supportive enough etc. After a while I gave up and did the whole "whatever, it's fine" speech and he was going to leave, which I thought was stupid (I didn't think he would come back) and he said well what about me going to stay with my friend then and I said I would talk to her about it. I didn't have any work on for the next couple weeks anyway. So I talked to my friend and I left the next day.

I've probably missed a few bits and pieces, my head was all over the place at the time.


----------



## NoChoice

camerashy said:


> @phillybeffandswiss It was the day after a big argument. He had just got home from work and he mentioned that things weren't going very well between us and I agreed. I didn't know how to fix it and he said that he felt that our fighting was just getting worse and he needed some space to get his head around that. I asked what space we were talking about and he said he thought that we should go on a break for a little while, we needed to see if we were just too different, too incompatible for our M to work. I was like, "well isn't this something you're supposed to figure out before you marry them? I obviously don't think we're too different or else I wouldn't have married you." Opposites attract and all that. And he was saying that there was that, but people change when that initial "honeymoon period" is over and he didn't see this much conflict being part of the equation. He said he needed to clear his head and he couldn't do that with us occupying the same space. He needed to get over the work stuff, and work out if he really wanted to be there or whether he should move on. I said that I thought it was a really bad idea and that we should be trying to work this out together and he said we've tried that and it's not working, couples do it all the time, it's no big deal. I said that I didn't feel comfortable with that and we argued for a bit, brought up lots of past issues etc, I'm not supportive enough etc. After a while I gave up and did the whole "whatever, it's fine" speech and he was going to leave, which I thought was stupid (I didn't think he would come back) and he said well what about me going to stay with my friend then and I said I would talk to her about it. I didn't have any work on for the next couple weeks anyway. So I talked to my friend and I left the next day.
> 
> I've probably missed a few bits and pieces, my head was all over the place at the time.


OP,
First off, no apologies are necessary. I am not in any way offended, put off nor insulted by your remarks. We are here to try and assist you in your quest to salvage your M.

In so doing, points and opinions may be expressed that are inaccurate, misguided and sometimes outright wrong and only you can judge this from your perspective.

I did not mean to imply that you labeled your H as abusive but some here have and quite emphatically. Your words, as I have interpreted them, have painted a somewhat different picture as is evidenced in the quote above.

These do not seem to be the rantings of an insidious monster but actually sound rather reasoned and thoughtful. It falls to you to determine whether or not they are acceptable and to proceed accordingly.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Thank you for your honesty. I asked because I couldn't understand why you would want someone back who threw you out on the street. Also, just like others can't reconcile the red flags, I couldn't understand why you defended him so fervently. Finally, a proud man, a-hole or not, would rarely throw his wife out on the street if his pride is as strong as you state. He'd be too narcissistic to allow any backlash, like he received on this thread, in his personal life IMO.. 



> After a while I gave up and did the whole "whatever, it's fine" speech and *he was going to leave,* which I thought was stupid *(I didn't think he would come back)* and he said well what about me going to stay with my friend then and I said I would talk to her about it. I didn't have any work on for the next couple weeks anyway. So I talked to my friend and I left the next day.


 So, I do get why people see cheating, but you chose to leave. HUGE difference. You should have let him leave. Yes, I know you didn't say " he threw you out," but you didn't correct the many posters who did.

So, why were you sure he wasn't coming back?
What were the other issues in the past?

Be prepared, some people will call what you have said and what you've done trickle truthing.


----------



## Leonor

So the guy got tons of heat for something (= throwing OP out of the marital home) that he didn't actually do (he offered leaving).


----------



## MattMatt

Leonor said:


> So the guy got tons of heat for something (= throwing OP out of the marital home) that he didn't actually do (he offered leaving).


You have perhaps not seen a skilled manipulator at work?

They can have you believing the sky is green and the grass blue.


----------



## camerashy

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Thank you for your honesty. I asked because I couldn't understand why you would want someone back who threw you out on the street. Also, just like others can't reconcile the red flags, I couldn't understand why you defended him so fervently. Finally, a proud man, a-hole or not, would rarely throw his wife out on the street if his pride is as strong as you state. He'd be too narcissistic to allow any backlash, like he received on this thread, in his personal life IMO..
> 
> So, I do get why people see cheating, but you chose to leave. HUGE difference. You should have let him leave. Yes, I know you didn't say " he threw you out," but you didn't correct the many posters who did.
> 
> So, why were you sure he wasn't coming back?
> What were the other issues in the past?
> 
> Be prepared, some people will call what you have said and what you've done trickle truthing.


 @phillybeffandswiss I didn't exactly go willingly. I tried to get him to change his mind, but I couldn't.

I don't know why I felt he wasn't coming back...but I did...I even told him that it felt like he was breaking up with me. I guess, I figured that I knew I would go back, where as he was so desperate for the break that I felt like it would be the beginning of the end and there would be nothing I could do about it. And I wasn't exactly going to ask him to leave his own house and remain living in it like nothing is wrong


----------



## Bibi1031

Leonor said:


> So the guy got tons of heat for something (= throwing OP out of the marital home) that he didn't actually do (he offered leaving).


I dunno, Camershy said that he was always stating that it was HIS place as well. Very confusing indeed. not once in the 33 or so pages til now do we hear that it was now this way.


----------



## MattMatt

Bibi1031 said:


> I dunno, Camershy said that he was always stating that it was HIS place as well. Very confusing indeed. not once in the 33 or so pages til now do we hear that it was now this way.


Some solicitors, those who are trained to appear in courts or who are trained as negotiators have a wonderful way with words.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## camerashy

MattMatt said:


> Some solicitors, those who are trained to appear in courts or who are trained as negotiators have a wonderful way with words.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 @MattMatt Regardless of anything, people obviously felt that I deliberately misled them, which I apologize for. I thought I had already talked about what happened that night, but I was wrong. 

If anyone wants to believe that I willingly offered to leave, packed my bags and skipped out of the house, I can't stop them. And that's their opinion and I asked for all opinions, not just the ones I wanted to hear. I just assumed I guess, that people understand from my willingness to come on TAM and ask for advice, that I genuinely wanted some sort of opinions/advice to get my head around the situation.


----------



## Maxo

camerashy said:


> @Maxo I just don't see my H ever seeing how me contacting the OM is a good thing.


You could ask him to see if he would like the opportunity to inquire.


----------



## alte Dame

I still think that he has someone else in the wings. Stop being defensive. He insisted that you separate. You reluctantly agreed, believing that it was probably the end of your marriage.

So, it is what it is. Don't beg him. He wanted a separation. Now it has led to this.

I would make the separation official. Somehow I believe that an OW will show up pretty quickly.


----------



## Maxo

alte Dame said:


> I still think that he has someone else in the wings. Stop being defensive. He insisted that you separate. You reluctantly agreed, believing that it was probably the end of your marriage.
> 
> So, it is what it is. Don't beg him. He wanted a separation. Now it has led to this.
> 
> I would make the separation official. Somehow I believe that an OW will show up pretty quickly.


I see no evidence of his cheating.


----------



## alte Dame

Maxo said:


> I see no evidence of his cheating.


Yes, I know you don't.


----------



## Maxo

alte Dame said:


> Yes, I know you don't.


Where is it? You are just speculating.


----------



## sparrow55

camerashy said:


> @sparrow55 This seems to be the crux of the whole situation. How can R happen if I don't feel like I can communicate with him honestly and he is seeing the kiss as the only issue in our M? He's not willing to address any of the other issues, and given his mood right now, I'm not willing to press the issue.


The way this whole thing should go, if you believe/trust him as a partner and a person with honest intentions even though you might not trust him right now would be .

You would deal with the infidelity first. It will be hard with the initial anger and resentment flying around from both of you. Then slowly, you deal with the marriage issues along the way. Th infidelity takes precedence. 

But the problem seems to be that you don't trust his intentions or how you think he intends to deal with the situation. You think you will end up more hurt and exploited.

He is an abuser with the name calling and putting you down stuff. You also mentioned that you two argued a lot. 

Maybe a more qualified person can make a better judgement call.


----------



## MattMatt

Maxo said:


> I see no evidence of his cheating.


None so blind as those who refuse to see.

And a person can be a horrible spouse without cheating sexually.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Venessa Hodge

You can't live with the person like him. Please stay away from him, if he disrespecting you again and gain then it means he has started enjoying it. Stay happy live your life with your friends and family. Gud luck


----------



## MattMatt

And there are people who are not cheating but who after a couple of years realise that they don't want to be married. Maybe not to their current spouse, perhaps not to ANY spouse.

Rather than being honest and asking for a proper legal separation they start pointless arguments in an attempt to make their spouse want to leave.

There are other techniques at their disposal.

As a Solicitor the husband in this case will know all the legal tricks in order to mitigate any financial losses he might incure in getting rid of his spouse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dyokemm

A lot of speculating and projection going on here.

BH has been labeled as abusive....except.

OP has several times herself said she does not think he is abusive.

But...he threw her out of the house for no reason say the speculators.....except now OP admits he didn't.....he even offered to leave first.

But....he said nasty hurtful things and called her horrible names.....well, he just found out she cheated and HE doesn't know if she is to be believed about the extent of it......and I would remind everyone, there are many good and decent posters here who admit that in the immediate aftermath of discovering their WS's infidelity they said some horrible and cruel things and called their WS some extremely nasty names....things they were embarrassed about afterwards......perhaps OP's BH is just lashing out as many BSs do in the time right after they find out.

As far as BH cheating or having someone in the wings.....well OP has said herself she doesn't believe this at all....and the sole reason that I can see on why others keep insisting he is cheating is because of a flat out refusal to accept at face value the reasons BH gave to OP when asking to separate....

He felt she was not supportive and didn't have his back during his work issue.

Now, many can think that he was overreacting (in fact, if I were his friend I would have probably told him to calm down and maybe he was doing this)....but that doesn't change the fact that this is how HE felt about the situation.

Barring any other information from OP.....I will accept this as the truth....not go speculating that he MUST have some ulterior motive behind his separation demand.

I just don't get this vitriol.....we have a BH who already (right or wrong) felt that his WW was not there for him in a crisis, asked for time apart to consider what this meant for him and his M, who was then betrayed by his WW.

And the guy gets nothing but attacked here (despite the fact we have not heard his side of the story at all) while his WW is told she is justified in her actions and is the victim here.

Next time I see a post where people complain that TAM is way too harsh on WSs, I'm going to reference this thread as proof that it isn't always.

Sheesh....even the OP, his WW, says that she doesn't see her BH as abusive or cheating and some posters can't help but keep posting as if he is.


----------



## karole

I may be wrong, but didn't the OP post that he called her names even before the separation/cheating????


----------



## Dyokemm

karole said:


> I may be wrong, but didn't the OP post that he called her names even before the separation/cheating????


I don't recall her saying he was calling names before....I think she said he was often angry and argumentative with her....they were fighting a lot.

But OP also admitted that during this time she often called him childish for how he was reacting to the problem and even told him to just quit working there and get a job somewhere else.....

Not exactly being supportive....which is what he was upset about when he asked for the separation.

Was it an overreaction?......possibly.....impossible to know for sure since we can't know the exact details of the conversations/arguments.


----------



## Marduk

The whole dynamic is ****ed.

And that's because they're both deeply broken people in a deeply broken relationship.

Time to clear the decks and get healthy. Both of them. Apart.


----------



## Maxo

I could see them reconciling. Couples have overcome much worse than a cheating kiss and name calling.
On the gradual embellishment of the story, the additions of name calling , door slamming etc. , I wondered if we are not dealing with a Borderline Waif, adept at enlisting support via victim status. Sheer conjecture on my part, but it is disturbing how the allegations followed the suggestions of abusiveness by others. Especially disturbing was the failure to correct, immediately, some of the posters carrying pitchforks when they mischaracterized what took place when the H asked for time apart.
For page after page we heard this characterized as her being kicked out, on the street, etc when, in fact, it turned out to be her own decision to leave after he had offered to be the one to leave.
But, at least, camera, consistently disputed the suggestions that he was cheating.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

I'm sorry - I've only read half of the so maybe what I say won't matter at this point - but you've said several times something that is a red flag to me.

Remember the movie Gerry McGuire? Remember the locker scene? Jerry is exasperated and trying to get his client to play nice and they're arguing and Gerry storms off... But his client says "Hey - we finally started talking!"

I keep hearing you say your H is upset and trying to talk to you but you are trying to make the conflict disappear. You're upset that he is ranting and he's upset because you're minimizing his issues and trying to shut him down.

That is very typical codependent behavior - if it's happening, you are trying to control his emotions and minimize conflicts - you seem to see conflict as the enemy that must be avoided. H on the other hand probably deals with conflict and probably used it to resolve issues.

Communication! He tries to move toward conflict for resolution and you try to minimize it for resolution.

Could there be any validity to this? This has been my personal experience - I love my wife dearly, but when she tries to stifle my thoughts or emotions I feel like she is minimizing my feelings. She grew up in an alcoholic home and therefore avoids conflict. ...


----------



## Bibi1031

karole said:


> I may be wrong, but didn't the OP post that he called her names even before the separation/cheating????


She absolutely did mention it; but you see, to some calling her derogatory names is not abuse. Maybe they behave this way when their SO doesn't agree with them. Hence why name calling is acceptable behavior in their eyes and is justified because their partner made them do it by not being supportive 

This all goes back to what is and what is not acceptable behavior by both parties. Each couple's dynamic is different and what is and isn't accepted is different too. 

I would not take anyone calling me names because I didn't support or agree with my spouse enough. It's inexcusable period! That is why implementing boundaries is extremely important.


----------



## MattMatt

Dyokemm said:


> I don't recall her saying he was calling names before....I think she said he was often angry and argumentative with her....they were fighting a lot.
> 
> But OP also admitted that during this time she often called him childish for how he was reacting to the problem and even told him to just quit working there and get a job somewhere else.....
> 
> Not exactly being supportive....which is what he was upset about when he asked for the separation.
> 
> Was it an overreaction?......possibly.....impossible to know for sure since we can't know the exact details of the conversations/arguments.


He was calling her names and also taking it on on her when he was under investigation by his employer.


----------



## drifting on

Dyokemm said:


> A lot of speculating and projection going on here.
> 
> BH has been labeled as abusive....except.
> 
> OP has several times herself said she does not think he is abusive.
> 
> But...he threw her out of the house for no reason say the speculators.....except now OP admits he didn't.....he even offered to leave first.
> 
> But....he said nasty hurtful things and called her horrible names.....well, he just found out she cheated and HE doesn't know if she is to be believed about the extent of it......and I would remind everyone, there are many good and decent posters here who admit that in the immediate aftermath of discovering their WS's infidelity they said some horrible and cruel things and called their WS some extremely nasty names....things they were embarrassed about afterwards......perhaps OP's BH is just lashing out as many BSs do in the time right after they find out.
> 
> As far as BH cheating or having someone in the wings.....well OP has said herself she doesn't believe this at all....and the sole reason that I can see on why others keep insisting he is cheating is because of a flat out refusal to accept at face value the reasons BH gave to OP when asking to separate....
> 
> He felt she was not supportive and didn't have his back during his work issue.
> 
> Now, many can think that he was overreacting (in fact, if I were his friend I would have probably told him to calm down and maybe he was doing this)....but that doesn't change the fact that this is how HE felt about the situation.
> 
> Barring any other information from OP.....I will accept this as the truth....not go speculating that he MUST have some ulterior motive behind his separation demand.
> 
> I just don't get this vitriol.....we have a BH who already (right or wrong) felt that his WW was not there for him in a crisis, asked for time apart to consider what this meant for him and his M, who was then betrayed by his WW.
> 
> And the guy gets nothing but attacked here (despite the fact we have not heard his side of the story at all) while his WW is told she is justified in her actions and is the victim here.
> 
> Next time I see a post where people complain that TAM is way too harsh on WSs, I'm going to reference this thread as proof that it isn't always.
> 
> Sheesh....even the OP, his WW, says that she doesn't see her BH as abusive or cheating and some posters can't help but keep posting as if he is.




Great post, OP, read this post again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

Maxo said:


> I could see them reconciling. Couples have overcome much worse than a cheating kiss and name calling.
> On the gradual embellishment of the story, the additions of name calling , door slamming etc. , I wondered if we are not dealing with a Borderline Waif, adept at enlisting support via victim status. Sheer conjecture on my part, but it is disturbing how the allegations followed the suggestions of abusiveness by others. Especially disturbing was the failure to correct, immediately, some of the posters carrying pitchforks when they mischaracterized what took place when the H asked for time apart.
> For page after page we heard this characterized as her being kicked out, on the street, etc when, in fact, it turned out to be her own decision to leave after he had offered to be the one to leave.
> But, at least, camera, consistently disputed the suggestions that he was cheating.


When I first came to TAM, I told part of my story. Why? Because I chose to tell what I felt comfortable about relating. 

When I felt I had gained the trust of people here, I told more parts of the story. Which I hadn't really wanted to share at first.

Also, people would ask me questions which I answered, thus adding more to my story.

That's what happens in counselling, too. People reveal more as they go along.


----------



## Bibi1031

MattMatt said:


> When I first came to TAM, I told part of my story. Why? Because I chose to tell what I felt comfortable about relating.
> 
> When I felt I had gained the trust of people here, I told more parts of the story. Which I hadn't really wanted to share at first.
> 
> Also, people would ask me questions which I answered, thus adding more to my story.
> 
> *That's what happens in counselling, too. People reveal more as they go along.*


I guess some here are in the team of Camerashy's husband that think therapy is just a waste of time and money...:surprise:


*When I first came to TAM, I told part of my story. Why? Because I chose to tell what I felt comfortable about relating. 
*

I did that too. I guess some may have thought I was pulling the trickle truth thingie...sigh


----------



## LosingHim

Bibi1031 said:


> I guess some here are in the team of Camerashy's husband that think therapy is just a waste of time and money...:surprise:
> 
> 
> *When I first came to TAM, I told part of my story. Why? Because I chose to tell what I felt comfortable about relating.
> *
> 
> I did that too. I guess some may have thought I was pulling the trickle truth thingie...sigh


My story came out over hundreds of pages. I posted quite a bit of information on my first post, and boy did I piss people off, but I only gave what I felt was pertinent to the situation and I was honest. But through questions, back story came out. Other details. Things I guess I just didn't even know were pertinent to the situation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

Bibi1031 said:


> I guess some here are in the team of Camerashy's husband that think therapy is just a waste of time and money...:surprise:
> 
> 
> *When I first came to TAM, I told part of my story. Why? Because I chose to tell what I felt comfortable about relating.
> *
> 
> I did that too. I guess some may have thought I was pulling the trickle truth thingie...sigh


Oh, you can imagine the reaction from some people on TAM when I felt able to reveal that I had originally been my wife's workplace Affair Partner! 

I know a little bit about the karma bus from personal experience.


----------



## Bibi1031

MattMatt said:


> *Oh, you can imagine the reaction from some people on TAM when I felt able to reveal that I had originally been my wife's workplace Affair Partner! *
> 
> I know a little bit about the karma bus from personal experience.



Damn dancing kitties, you survived the TAM lynch mob...

Miracles do happen...lol


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

One of the TAM lynch Mobs, there are multiple pitchfork swinging crews.


----------



## MrsAldi

@camerashy I know there has probably been no improvements (yet)
So I would like to ask about the early days of your relationship with your husband? 
Was it a lovey dovey kind or a meeting of the minds type of thing? 

I would like to know where and how he came up with that you guys were not compatible, it can't be just the work thing? 

Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## Dyokemm

The only lynch mob I have seen on this thread is the one that has declared OP's BH to be an abusive, mentally unbalanced, cheating, sociopath....and all based on THEIR OWN suppositions of OP's situation.

Not even camerashy has validated the things that have been declared as truth about her BH....In fact she has disavowed them several times over.

Usually, we see thing phenomena on TAM on BS threads.....where posters will be off and running with possibilities and suppositions based on the initial facts presented.


----------



## MattMatt

Dyokemm said:


> The only lynch mob I have seen on this thread is the one that has declared OP's BH to be an abusive, mentally unbalanced, cheating sociopath....and all based on THEIR OWN suppositions of OP's situation.
> 
> Not even camerashy has validated the things that have been declared as truth about her BH....I fact she has disavowed them several times over.
> 
> Usually, we see thing phenomena on TAM on BS threads.....where posters will be off and running with possibilities and suppositions based on the initial facts presented.


But in fairness, he *is* a lawyer.


----------



## Dyokemm

MattMatt said:


> But in fairness, he *is* a lawyer.


LMAO.....even the lowest of the low deserve a fair hearing based on the facts Matt.

But I agree....don't like them much myself.


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## blahfridge

MattMatt said:


> Bibi1031 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I guess some here are in the team of Camerashy's husband that think therapy is just a waste of time and money...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *When I first came to TAM, I told part of my story. Why? Because I chose to tell what I felt comfortable about relating.
> *
> 
> I did that too. I guess some may have thought I was pulling the trickle truth thingie...sigh
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, you can imagine the reaction from some people on TAM when I felt able to reveal that I had originally been my wife's workplace Affair Partner!
> 
> I know a little bit about the karma bus from personal experience.
Click to expand...

Oooh, MattMatt...how did I miss that? Must have been before my time. No judgement from me..I've still not told my complete story. I'm thinking this summer may be the time, but I need to buy a flak jacket first. ?


----------



## Bibi1031

Dyokemm said:


> *The only lynch mob I have seen on this thread is the one that has declared OP's BH to be an abusive, mentally unbalanced, cheating sociopath*....and all based on THEIR OWN suppositions of OP's situation.
> 
> *Not even camerashy has validated the things that have been declared as truth about her BH*....I fact she has disavowed them several times over.
> 
> Usually, we see thing phenomena on TAM on BS threads.....where posters will be off and running with possibilities and suppositions based on the initial facts presented.


why of course you would. Sociopath was never mentioned, but that perception is quite close.

*Not even camerashy has validated the things that have been declared as truth about her BH*

Hmmm, some say she was swayed into thinking this way, but you don't see that now do you? Just that she doesn't agree at all with the posters that suggest he is indeed abusive. 

Very interesting how some things are just glossed over and other things are magnified/exaggerated right?

Kettle meet pot :wink2:


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## camerashy

@Bibi1031 @MattMatt @LosingHim I'm not really worried if people think I am embellishing details. I can't control how people interpret the information that I have given. It's hard trying to fit all the details of an entire R or M in a few hundred words. Of course, there are going to be things that I didn't think relevant that come up later on - just as there are things that come up in the comments that offer me a different perspective than my own. I'm allowed to examine the evidence, just as everyone else is. I came on here for advice and I am grateful to each and every poster for each comment gives me something to consider. I didn't come on here to hear what I wanted to hear - if that was the case then I would just sit at home with my own thoughts festering inside my head. I am so grateful for your continued support however, and my confidence in posting has grown immensely.



MrsAldi said:


> @camerashy I know there has probably been no improvements (yet)
> So I would like to ask about the early days of your relationship with your husband?
> Was it a lovey dovey kind or a meeting of the minds type of thing?
> 
> I would like to know where and how he came up with that you guys were not compatible, it can't be just the work thing?
> 
> Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


 @MrsAldi From the beginning, there was always a really strong physical and mental attraction between us. I had to play a lot of catch up though, because he's very forthcoming with his feelings and I am a little more guarded. I would call our relationship normal - typical ups and downs. Yes, we did have times where name calling and yelling would enter our arguments, but it wasn't like it has been in the past few months though. Not half as bad. 

I've been really trying to pinpoint when the "compatibility" issue came into play. I was quite blindsided by that, I mean... yes, we are very different (spiritually, emotionally, how we think), but it was never so much of a problem until the work issue came up. He had been working a lot harder than usual, so there was definitely more stress. And he was taking a lot of that extra stress out on me at home with his snarky comments, more frequent arguments etc... I questioned whether it was the "baby" issue that was at the root of it. When we decided that we wanted to have kids, he took on a lot of extra hours at work (he wanted a good nest egg in the bank), but I don't know...it's not like I forced the issue. We mutually decided that raising a family was important to both of us.

I still don't know all the details about the work incident though, and I think that was the main cause of all the stress he was under. I wish he could have just told me how I wasn't supporting him or what I could have done to make the situation easier, rather than insisting that we have a break.

(Not using it as an excuse for my actions though, just to be clear)


----------



## MrsAldi

@camerashy minus the cheating bit & the fact he's angry, let's just forget that for a minute. 

Under normal circumstances how would you get things back on track to good terms, like what were the things that made him & you relaxed & happy as a couple? 





Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


----------



## Dyokemm

Bibi1031 said:


> why of course you would. Sociopath was never mentioned, but that perception is quite close.
> 
> *Not even camerashy has validated the things that have been declared as truth about her BH*
> 
> Hmmm, some say she was swayed into thinking this way, but you don't see that now do you? Just that she doesn't agree at all with the posters that suggest he is indeed abusive.
> 
> Very interesting how some things are just glossed over and other things are magnified/exaggerated right?
> 
> Kettle meet pot :wink2:


Bibi.....

I don't know if the guy is abusive....I don't know enough....and neither do you or any other poster.

What I'm calling out is the absolute speculation, free of factual knowledge, about OP's situation and who her BH is......

And no.....I'm not going to SPECULATE and declare that OP must be deluded, or manipulated, or intimidated when she disagrees with the assertions that others have made about her situation/BH.

I don't know HER well enough to make that call either.

But if you want want to be so sure about what you claim to know....go ahead.

But don't expect me or others to automatically agree with your opinion...or be so snarky and condescending just because we call out fact free speculation when we see it.


----------



## camerashy

MrsAldi said:


> @camerashy minus the cheating bit & the fact he's angry, let's just forget that for a minute.
> 
> Under normal circumstances how would you get things back on track to good terms, like what were the things that made him & you relaxed & happy as a couple?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


 @MrsAldi One of us (usually me) has to sweep the conflict under the rug. I would usually just end up agreeing with him so that the conflict is over. Or he'll let it go but continue to make little jabs until I ignore it and he doesn't get the result he desires. These are the most common ways we resolve normal conflict.


----------



## MattMatt

blahfridge said:


> Oooh, MattMatt...how did I miss that? Must have been before my time. No judgement from me..I've still not told my complete story. I'm thinking this summer may be the time, but I need to buy a flak jacket first. ?


It was a while back when I wrote about it.

We have been together for 27 years, now.


----------



## MattMatt

camerashy said:


> @MrsAldi One of us (usually me) has to sweep the conflict under the rug. I would usually just end up agreeing with him so that the conflict is over. Or he'll let it go but continue to make little jabs until I ignore it and he doesn't get the result he desires. These are the most common ways we resolve normal conflict.


Would you say he was controlling to any degree, or not?


----------



## Dyokemm

And to be fair, there was some uncalled for speculation on this thread going in the other direction too.

Several people posted they fully expected for OP to eventually have to come out and admit that she went much farther with the OM than she admitted to at first.

And these were not based on any inconsistent facts in her story....just pure speculation.

It's all wrong and it certainly doesn't help OP in any way to move forward in resolving this incident with her BH.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

MattMatt said:


> camerashy said:
> 
> 
> 
> @MrsAldi One of us (usually me) has to sweep the conflict under the rug. I would usually just end up agreeing with him so that the conflict is over. Or he'll let it go but continue to make little jabs until I ignore it and he doesn't get the result he desires. These are the most common ways we resolve normal conflict.
> 
> 
> 
> Would you say he was controlling to any degree, or not?
Click to expand...

Interesting question. I see them as both controlling but being frustrated that they aren't winning.

@camerashy your response to agree and reduce conflict is controlling behavior. Do you see that?

I'm only observing - not judging.

But I suspect H may be trying to bait you to actually engage and argue with him. He might see that as evidence that you love him enough to listen and engage as opposed to agreeing and going dark on him.

Both are not particularly healthy but sadly both are pretty common.

Do you think what I'm saying has any truth? We can't know - and I'm kind of sick of the blatant "statements of fact" many TAM members are declaring here. We only see through the filter you provide, and we all look through it with our own jaundiced view. Be cautious of declarations here - the best we can do is speculate.

BTW I do think he is struggling to make it work but something is telling him he shouldn't. Could it be a particularly difficult divorce case that triggered him and caused him to project onto your marriage? (Pure speculation but why not cast a wide net?).


----------



## MattMatt

I think that events do seem to have, as a sort of a nexus, his workplace.

Not sure what that would be, however.


----------



## Dyokemm

MattMatt said:


> Would you say he was controlling to any degree, or not?


Even if he wasn't 'controlling', I would say this is an example of pretty sh*tty communication skills.

Always having to 'prove your point' is not very conducive to great communication between a couple.


----------



## blahfridge

OP, do you think your decision to start a family may have spooked your H? I don't that it's uncommon for that to happen with a resulting rise in stress that brings on more arguments. 

Were you actively trying or just talking about it? Is he the kind of person who likes a lot of structure and order in his life? Having children can be very scary for someone like that.


----------



## MattMatt

Dyokemm said:


> Even if he wasn't 'controlling', I would say this is an example of pretty sh*tty communication skills.
> 
> Always having to 'prove your point' is not very conducive to great communication between a couple.


But it is how lawyers in the UK deal with things. It's all very adversarial and right v wrong.


----------



## Dyokemm

MattMatt said:


> But it is how lawyers in the UK deal with things. It's all very adversarial and right v wrong.


Here in the U.S too Matt.....in fact I suspect it is a universal trait in lawyers ...lmao.


----------



## Dyokemm

And I would add that such a trait in lawyers is not necessarily a bad thing.....I do think it is possible to determine right and wrong to some degree through TRUE conversation and discussion of facts.

But lawyers aren't trained to do that really.

Their job is to create a PERSUASIVE argument of the facts to lead people to a predetermined conclusion.....so facts that counter or mitigate the argument are either ignored or minimized.

It's not truth they are after...but rather winning.

And if OP's BH tries to 'talk' with her in this same way, it is only going to lead to further conflict and crappy communication between the two of them.


----------



## MrsAldi

@camerashy that's somewhat normal, I do it sometimes. 
I'll just let it go for the sake of harmony or worse I cry (loudly) & I know he'll come running to apologise. 

You have given him full access to everything, I'm sure you're following his stipulations but it'll still take a long time to forgive, I don't have much experience in that area so maybe ask/read some threads of the betrayed here. 

Your husband is a wounded man at the moment, he was betrayed in work first & then at home (in his mind). 

Keep us updated on his moods & behaviours, that will help determine where things are going with him. 

Unfortunately I cannot help you when he's mad angry, I usually run away & am crying at that point! 

Stay strong.   







































Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


----------



## Bibi1031

*But if you want want to be so sure about what you claim to know....go ahead.*

*But don't expect me or others to automatically agree with your opinion...or be so snarky and condescending just because we call out fact free speculation when we see it.*[/QUOTE]

*But if you want want to be so sure about what you claim to know....go ahead.*

Well, thank you. I do and I will continue to do so. MY choice...always.


*But don't expect me or others to automatically agree with your opinion*

I don't.

*we call out fact free speculation when we see it.*

Here lays the problem. My advice is being weighed and it shouldn't. It's the opinion of ONE person, and this ONE person is entitled to her opinion just like YOU and EVERYONE else. My opinion is based on personal experience. If someone doesn't agree with it, then IGNORE it and move on. 

*.or be so snarky and condescending*

And this is why I wrote: "Kettle meet pot!"


----------



## Dyokemm

Bibi1031 said:


> *But if you want want to be so sure about what you claim to know....go ahead.*
> 
> *But don't expect me or others to automatically agree with your opinion...or be so snarky and condescending just because we call out fact free speculation when we see it.*


*But if you want want to be so sure about what you claim to know....go ahead.*

Well, thank you. I do and I will continue to do so. MY choice...always.


*But don't expect me or others to automatically agree with your opinion*

I don't.

*we call out fact free speculation when we see it.*

Here lays the problem. My advice is being weighed and it shouldn't. It's the opinion of ONE person, and this ONE person is entitled to her opinion just like YOU and EVERYONE else. My opinion is based on personal experience. If someone doesn't agree with it, then IGNORE it and move on. 

*.or be so snarky and condescending*

And this is why I wrote: "Kettle meet pot!"[/QUOTE]

OK....fair enough Bibi.

And for the record, I was not calling out any single poster, you or anyone else, for the speculation.

It just seemed to me that this theme of BH being an abuser and/or cheating became something of a bandwagon theme that MANY different people were jumping on for several pages......even though camerashy was periodically and consistently saying she didn't see those things in her BH.

I have seen similar things happen on BS threads about the WS.....it becomes like a feeding frenzy that takes on a life of its own.

My call was really for everyone to calm down and come back to the actual known facts for a bit because it was growing into an overwhelming chorus that IMO was doing very little to actually help OP.

I certainly don't mean to say your opinion doesn't matter or you are wrong to hold it.....heck, for all I KNOW, you might actually end up being spot on if all the details were to come out.

I just hoped to calm things down a bit.....when a steady stream of posters were just jumping on to join the chorus and tell OP that she shouldn't stay with her abusive/cheating BH and should just immediately file herself....well at that point I felt the thread was not giving OP what she wanted or needed.


----------



## camerashy

blahfridge said:


> OP, do you think your decision to start a family may have spooked your H? I don't that it's uncommon for that to happen with a resulting rise in stress that brings on more arguments.
> 
> Were you actively trying or just talking about it? Is he the kind of person who likes a lot of structure and order in his life? Having children can be very scary for someone like that.


 @blahfridge Possibly, although it was something we talked about for about 3 months for we actively started trying. I had been on contraceptive injections though, so we knew that it could take a while to happen.

And yes, he is the structured/ordered type, so maybe he had been stressing out about it, or having second thoughts, but didn't talk to me about it.


----------



## drifting on

I want to be sure I get this correct, and that these are the facts so far. OP, please correct whatever it is I have wrong. 

1) married less then 3 years.
2) occasional name calling when fighting.
3) name calling increased during contraception and work incident.
4) you run from problems and it issues.
5) you say you supported, didn't support him during work incident.
6) you told him it will blow over at work.
7) you told him to get a different job??
8) you say your marriage is typical, not fighting much before work incident. 
9) husband is manipulative, per you, example given is by him saying it's my house. How else is he manipulative? 
10) you say he through you out of the house, and/or he said he would leave. 
11) he wants a break in the marriage to determine if you are both compatible. 
12) you move out to stay with a friend, you do not suspect cheating whatsoever.
13) your husband likes affection in public, has taken to the extreme on several occasions. 
14) during your brief affair, you allow OM to do exactly what you wouldn't allow your husband to do. 
15) the next morning you inform husband of what happened. 
16) friend tells you not to tell your husband. 
17) during work incident husband picked fights over trivial things. 
18) you lost respect for your husband per you.
19) you said husband handled the work incident in a childish manner per you. 
20) your work is very sporadic and you take shoots whenever possible. 
21) name calling increased after cheating episode. 
22) husband has been distant since you returned home. 

Is this information correct? If it is correct some of your husbands traits I also have. From what you have posted I can tell you the similarities between myself and your husband. 

I rely on my wife, she is my partner, best friend, and lover, and when we married I considered us United as a couple before the world. It's us, is against the world so to speak, I have her back she has mine. However, you ran from problems, and that would cause me to feel less important. From there I would be less vulnerable towards you causing you to feel distant from me. I would not name call, your husband and I are different there.

Contraception starts and has not succeeded to the moment. My wife and I tried to conceive for fifteen years, did fertility, suffered through a miscarriage, I completely understand your stress here. Work incident happens, you said you didn't support him enough, then said you did support him. Based on this I would think he didn't feel you were supporting him. Telling him that it will blow over would lead me to think my employment isn't very important. If you told him to get a different job then even less important. Here I would like to ask a question, if he were to lose his job, would yours support the both of you? If not, don't you think this could have been a primary concern for him? I think, just like myself, that employment is very important, it provides you for your daily needs, food, shelter, and clothing.

Asking for a break is ridiculous, but at this point I would have been questioning my wife extensively. Your husband didn't, then he either said you or I should leave for a break to determine if we are indeed compatible. Wrong, yes, but at the very least you should have been doing some deep self reflection at this point, and clearly you didn't think of your marriage at all. Instead you went to a pub and allowed an OM to do exactly what you denied to your husband. You need to think about this very deeply, because this was a direct action against your husband. True you confessed the next morning, and I hope your idiot friend is gone from your life. She is toxic to your marriage, without any doubt. 

Your husband is now most likely crushed as I was. You have a long road to recovery, verbal abuse to overcome, infidelity to overcome, and your first priority is making your husband feel safe. Many of the replies here are not guiding you to reconcile, even though I believe that is what you want. You need advice and the best advice was to seek counseling. Ask your counselor the best way to get your husband to go. Ask your counselor how to react to the verbal abuse. 

Can this be overcome is a big question, communication will be key to reconciliation. You will both need to be at your best while conversing. No more running away or shutting down, no more verbal abuse, a communicative effort on both parties to result in a resolution. Feelings may get hurt, tears may be shed, anger will need to not be present. This is your most difficult challenge, can you both communicate during a conflict to achieve a resolution?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TheTruthHurts

A thought occurred to me. Can you put your thoughts diwn on paper and ask H to do the same?

Not one epic drama... but communicate issues through writing.

That way you eliminate the back and forth dynamic that is clouding things.

Maybe simple direct thoughts, like "how being asked to separate made me feel". Then ask him to respond to just that thought in writing. Ask him do try this one simple topic at a time.

Maybe that would help


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Maybe you could also try humor together. Watch "it's not about the nail" on YouTube.

Then just talk about who you relate to in that video and why


----------



## MattMatt

@drifting on

I do not think your points are _completely_ accurate.

For example Camerashy *was* supportive of her husband, but he, apparently, did not think she was supportive enough.

His attitude toward his workplace came over as: "Don't they know who I am? I should have not been subject to an investigation! 

"Investigations are for the little people, not for someone as important in the company as *I* am!"

At that point Camerashy lost some respect for him. Well, DUH!!!


----------



## Maxo

MattMatt said:


> @drifting on
> 
> I do not think your points are _completely_ accurate.
> 
> For example Camerashy *was* supportive of her husband, but he, apparently, did not think she was supportive enough.
> 
> His attitude toward his workplace came over as: "Don't they know who I am? I should have not been subject to an investigation!
> 
> "Investigations are for the little people, not for someone as important in the company as *I* am!"
> 
> At that point Camerashy lost some respect for him. Well, DUH!!!


Did I miss him having said what you quoted, Matt? Or, are you just making that up?


----------



## MattMatt

Maxo said:


> Did I miss him having said what you quoted, Matt? Or, are you just making that up?


I see. You appear to be making out that you mistook "*His attitude toward his workplace came over as*..." for a direct quote.

Which it was obviously not.

Now, you do not appear to have comprehension problems.

Which leaves the only logical conclusion that you are only *pretending *to be unable to understand what I wrote.

Your comment


> Did I miss him having said what you quoted, Matt? Or, are you just making that up?


 is utterly risible because as Camerashy's husband has never (to my knowledge) posted on the thread, then how could you have missed something he said? (sic)

You couldn't have done. Could you?

I based my comment on my understanding of what Camerashy wrote about her husband's poor attitude toward his workplace and his colleagues because he seemed to believe he should have been exempt from the standard employment policy of being investigated for any allegations of impropriety.

He was exonerated.

But that wasn't enough.

He had the support of his wife.

But that wasn't enough.

The man has problems.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

@mattmatt I disagree. He may or may not have problems.

My ethics were questioned at work as well and an HR case was brought. Ultimately I guess it went away but it left a bitter taste in my mouth. I pretty much felt a great deal of distain for my company, the HR team, and the piss poor policy interpretations here.

In fact, I was the only one behaving ethically by refusing to lie about my work product, and when "forced" to agree repeatedly by people I reported to, I finally resorted to colorful language.

The HR case was about my language - and the attempted coercion and unethical company behavior was completely ignored.

It was mind boggling.

We don't know that "ultimately" being exonerated was even relevant to the H - it certainly wasn't for me.

If my wife had done anything other than completely support me - which she did with flying colors - maybe I would have reacted similarly.

Impugning the integrity of an honorable man - at his own job and by his own coworkers - is about as low as you can go.

We don't know if there were more people who didn't believe H during the process - and we don't know if they were his friends, coworkers, bosses...

All of that is unknown.

We do know he reacted strongly, felt let down, and it impacted his marriage. Could he have been let down by his own W at the same time that he was being let down by friends?

I think that may be at the heart of this.

Oh and horrible commnication, a pissy attitude, and an avoidance attitude. Bad mix IMO


----------



## MattMatt

TheTruthHurts said:


> @mattmatt I disagree. He may or may not have problems.
> 
> My ethics were questioned at work as well and an HR case was brought. Ultimately I guess it went away but it left a bitter taste in my mouth. I pretty much felt a great deal of distain for my company, the HR team, and the piss poor policy interpretations here.
> 
> In fact, I was the only one behaving ethically by refusing to lie about my work product, and when "forced" to agree repeatedly by people I reported to, I finally resorted to colorful language.
> 
> The HR case was about my language - and the attempted coercion and unethical company behavior was completely ignored.
> 
> It was mind boggling.
> 
> We don't know that "ultimately" being exonerated was even relevant to the H - it certainly wasn't for me.
> 
> If my wife had done anything other than completely support me - which she did with flying colors - maybe I would have reacted similarly.
> 
> Impugning the integrity of an honorable man - at his own job and by his own coworkers - is about as low as you can go.
> 
> We don't know if there were more people who didn't believe H during the process - and we don't know if they were his friends, coworkers, bosses...
> 
> All of that is unknown.
> 
> We do know he reacted strongly, felt let down, and it impacted his marriage. Could he have been let down by his own W at the same time that he was being let down by friends?
> 
> I think that may be at the heart of this.
> 
> Oh and horrible commnication, a pissy attitude, and an avoidance attitude. Bad mix IMO


And all this because some person lied about him sending her inappropriate emails?

Actually, no, there's more to it than that.


----------



## Maxo

MattMatt said:


> I see. You appear to be making out that you mistook "*His attitude toward his workplace came over as*..." for a direct quote.
> 
> Which it was obviously not.
> 
> Now, you do not appear to have comprehension problems.
> 
> Which leaves the only logical conclusion that you are only *pretending *to be unable to understand what I wrote.
> 
> Your comment is utterly risible because as Camerashy's husband has never (to my knowledge) posted on the thread, then how could you have missed something he said? (sic)
> 
> You couldn't have done. Could you?
> 
> I based my comment on my understanding of what Camerashy wrote about her husband's poor attitude toward his workplace and his colleagues because he seemed to believe he should have been exempt from the standard employment policy of being investigated for any allegations of impropriety.
> 
> He was exonerated.
> 
> But that wasn't enough.
> 
> He had the support of his wife.
> 
> But that wasn't enough.
> 
> The man has problems.


Oh, I see: you were pretending. Sorry.


----------



## Maxo

MattMatt said:


> I see. You appear to be making out that you mistook "*His attitude toward his workplace came over as*..." for a direct quote.
> 
> Which it was obviously not.
> 
> Now, you do not appear to have comprehension problems.
> 
> Which leaves the only logical conclusion that you are only *pretending *to be unable to understand what I wrote.
> 
> Your comment is utterly risible because as Camerashy's husband has never (to my knowledge) posted on the thread, then how could you have missed something he said? (sic)
> 
> You couldn't have done. Could you?
> 
> I based my comment on my understanding of what Camerashy wrote about her husband's poor attitude toward his workplace and his colleagues because he seemed to believe he should have been exempt from the standard employment policy of being investigated for any allegations of impropriety.
> 
> He was exonerated.
> 
> But that wasn't enough.
> 
> He had the support of his wife.
> 
> But that wasn't enough.
> 
> The man has problems.


You make so many assumptions about a man you have never met, never seen his demeanor etc. that it is incredible.


----------



## MattMatt

Maxo said:


> You make so many assumptions about a man you have never met, never seen his demeanor etc. that it is incredible.


We make assumptions based on the information that we have.

That's how it has always happened on TAM. On any forum, for that matter.

If you can't cope with that, then I do not know what to suggest for you.


----------



## Bibi1031

MattMatt said:


> We make assumptions based on the information that we have.
> 
> *That's how it has always happened on TAM. On any forum, for that matter.*
> 
> If you can't cope with that, then I do not know what to suggest for you.


QFT...bolded for emphasis!


----------



## Maxo

MattMatt said:


> We make assumptions based on the information that we have.
> 
> That's how it has always happened on TAM. On any forum, for that matter.
> 
> If you can't cope with that, then I do not know what to suggest for you.


Just an observation. No problem coping.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

@mattmatt why do you assume there's more? H is an attorney. Attorneys are litigious - by definition. Sexual harassment can be a very costly charge for a company - financially and with respect to reputational damage.

A firm that specializes in divorce being embroiled in a sexual harassment lawsuit - are you kidding me? What woman would hire them?


----------



## LucasJackson

Why should he forgive you? What does he gain by that?


----------



## Bibi1031

LucasJackson said:


> Why should he forgive you? What does he gain by that?


A healthier, stronger, better marriage with the woman he loves...to name a few.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

This assumes he wants to stay in a broken marriage. Their communication was trash LONG BEFORE the cheating or this HR accusation some of you can't wrap your head around. It's sad because some of you have drawn such harsh lines you aren't helping her at all. They communicate and argue EXACTLY the same. I saw it early and the more she explains the more I wonder if they are BOTH equally allegedly verbally abusive. As described, one is overt with their insults, the other is subtle and they both probably deny they are being insulting. It's funny because it is how another person takes it no matter WHAT you claim.


----------



## LucasJackson

Bibi1031 said:


> A healthier, stronger, better marriage with the woman he loves...to name a few.


There are a lot of assumptions being made in that statement.


----------



## oneMOreguy

this bickering back and forth is sad........sounds a bit like how the OP and her husband argue.........

It is clear that they communicate quite differently and nothing seems to really get resolved.....they basically are talking past each other. They are clearly both very frustrated that the other is seemingly not listening to them.

When the husband expressed doubt about the marriage, communication seemed to be pivotal to his concern, so he is not oblivious to the issue at all. Awareness is key to a path of working on a compromise of some sort on communication styles. This is a positive thing.

Unfortunately, during the break apart, which they both verbally agreed to (but she now says she just did to end the argument.......) she went and kissed/groped a guy in a bar while drunk. Obviously not what either of them agreed to as part of the break. Now the whole communication mess is put on the back burner. 

There is no other evidence of cheating by either of them, and she says he is not an abuser (even though it is clear that she is most sensitive, at least from what I have read into her posts). Apparently almost a hundred posts arguing this issue were wasted effort.......and a chore to wade thru.

If the OP takes any advice that essentially is presumed on him being a cheater and/or abuser, then this marriage is toast.

He is hurt by her disloyalty..........that seems to be the priority issue that has to be dealt with. He thought his only doubt to deal with is communication style and having healthy arguments. Now he has doubts about whether he can even trust his wife. That has to be a kick to his b*lls that came out of nowhere........I really feel for the guy. I don't understand the lack of empathy for a spouse who has just experienced a DDay............he must be reeling, even though he is a big bad lawyer type....said tongue in cheek.

Secondarily, he argues/reasons with her like he is in court........that doesn't work well with her, probably because she does not see the world in black and white, and she does not seem to be comfortable with being forceful in stating her views. This is an issue that is important, but unfortunately no longer urgent. 

sorry this is a bit disjointed.......it is getting harder for me to type in a little box where I can't see a lot of what I have already written.....probably should just write a post in a word processor and do a cut and paste.

anyway.......this thread has gotten way more complicated than it needed to be........I truly suggest that for right now, the elephant in the room is the husband's loss of trust in the OP......from the many threads on TAM......I think we all should know that progress in any other area is not feasible until that is fixed.


----------



## sparrow55

The problem is that people formed their opinions after reading one post and then are tuning their arguments according to their original bias and agenda, instead of asking OP for additional information about her situation.


----------



## camerashy

Armed with some of the things I've learned - about myself, my H, our M - from the thoughtful comments posted on here, I approached my H today and forced a conversation that should have happened a long time ago.

He started to get worked up, but I told him that he needed to stay as calm and rational as possible, otherwise I wouldn't feel comfortable saying what I needed to say. For the most part, he complied. And we talked properly for the first time in months.

I told him how sorry I was, for the hurt it has caused him and us, and how I understand that it has caused him to doubt something about me that he has never had to doubt before.

He apologized for pushing me out the door in the first place. I told him how it felt and how alone I was considering most of my family isn't in the UK

I asked him how we thinks we got to this point and he said that he really struggles to understand me sometimes. He knows that I don't like having arguments, but he sees them as being normal and that when I run away from our problems it comes across to him that I am cold and unfeeling. That I don't care enough about fixing the issues we have. 

He said that when he going through his stuff at work, I didn't say the one thing that he needed to hear which was "I believe you." It really blew my mind how one simple statement had caused him to doubt the trust between us. I told him that of course I believed him, but he said that I said everything BUT that. And it did his head in.

He feels that there was never any cause for an investigation and that he feels that the firm has wronged him.

He feels that I've severed the trust between us and he can't get it out of his head. Even at work he's paranoid about what I am doing all day. He hates it. He also feels humiliated (I apologized for all this).

He also feels like we're probably going to get divorced.

I asked him why he wanted the break to begin with and he said he needed space to feel how he felt. I asked if he feels that he can't do that with me at home and he said no. Sometimes he wants to throw a fit, and be mad at the world and I don't let him do that. So we end up fighting and he ends up having extra stress. 

He thinks I need to harden up and stop avoiding things.

I asked him if he realized how much he hurts me when he says horrible/disgusting things to me and he said that it just comes out most of the time and he doesn't realize until later just how bad what he said was.

He said that's its normal for him, he knows I don't like it, but he can't control his temper sometimes.

I told him that sometimes I feel that he says abusive things in order to manipulate me and he said he didn't think he was doing that. 

I asked about MC and he declined, and also said that at this stage he's not sure how hard he's willing to try and make this work, because of my mistake and the fact he won't be able to trust me again.

He told me he was unhappy and asked if I was. I said yes and he had toget ready for work at that point so the conversation was put on hold.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

That's really sad but also very good that you started the dialog.

Idk what you should do at this point. It depends on what you want.

I would think hard about staying in the relationship and on leaving it. Weigh the pros and cons. Then tell us and we'll help you through what YOU want to do.

Right now you can respect his space and feelings. I don't think they're all warranted, but they're his.

You should conduct yourself as you would normally - not distant but not clingy. Kind of a 180-light perhaps - assuming you want to continue the relationship. It will help you feel independent in the event it doesn't work out, but not emotionally distance you any further.

I think he may be overstating the bad in an attempt to distance himself emotionally. You can make it harder for him by being emotionally present and working on communicating better in a positive way. By that I mean work on whatever perspective you had that caused you NOT to explicitly say you believed him. I do agree with him - my wife would have immediately focused on that and proved who believed me, who didn't, and expressly would have stated she believed me. I know it seems trivial to you but it isn't - so please think about it and bring it up in IC. It will serve you well in this or another relationship.

I think H is immature emotionally and it sounds like family history and modeled behavior to me. I get crazy too - angry and swear a lot when I do projects - but almost never direct it at my family. So I get the learned communication style argument, but for him to say he can't learn to hold his tongue on saying bad things about you is a huge cop out. BUT... he's saying that's off the table so I would worry about that later. 

Good luck and post your thoughts and feelings here - the TAM emoters will respond and help.


----------



## Bibi1031

Time to fence sit now. Do nothing if you have no idea or which way to go. Inaction is a good action here and a positive step forward. It gives you time to go over what you just found out. 

Have you been able to go in and see a therapist?


----------



## MattMatt

TheTruthHurts said:


> @mattmatt why do you assume there's more? H is an attorney. Attorneys are litigious - by definition. Sexual harassment can be a very costly charge for a company - financially and with respect to reputational damage.
> 
> A firm that specializes in divorce being embroiled in a sexual harassment lawsuit - are you kidding me? What woman would hire them?


In British Solicitors the amount of sexual harassment and other illegal practices is legendary.

I even heard of a case where the head of a firm of Solicitor's employment law expert was unaware that there had been a major piece of new employment law that meant his defence was dead in the water.


----------



## MattMatt

Does he behave like this -being rude, swearing, ranting- at work?

Or does he save it up and unfairly unleash it on you at home? My wife has a tendency to do this. It was quite a while before I figured it out.

I think your husband has issues that might be assisted by counselling. But if he refuses to accept this idea, there's very little you can do.

Ask him this question: "If I had not met that man when I was drunk, putting that to one side, would you still have wanted our marriage to continue?" 

Then watch him when he answers.


----------



## camerashy

Bibi1031 said:


> Time to fence sit now. Do nothing if you have no idea or which way to go. Inaction is a good action here and a positive step forward. It gives you time to go over what you just found out.
> 
> Have you been able to go in and see a therapist?


 @Bibi1031 Fist appointment today, and also, the first time I've left the house since I've been home.

I think it went well (I've seen this therapist before). He wants me to look deeper at what the underlying reasons are that led to the kiss. About whether the underlying reasons are personal ie. Low-esteem, personal dissatisfaction etc or whether it's for relationship dissatisfaction reasons i.e avoidance of marital issues, looking for a way out of the M etc.

He encouraged me to talk with H to help to understand his POV as well understand what my underlying issues with the relationship might be (underneath the fighting). He also pointed out that whether the M is able to be R or not, is not just up to H and that I should be seeking answers about his actions/behavior to help me to decide.


----------



## camerashy

MattMatt said:


> Does he behave like this -being rude, swearing, ranting- at work?
> 
> Or does he save it up and unfairly unleash it on you at home? My wife has a tendency to do this. It was quite a while before I figured it out.
> 
> I think your husband has issues that might be assisted by counselling. But if he refuses to accept this idea, there's very little you can do.
> 
> Ask him this question: "If I had not met that man when I was drunk, putting that to one side, would you still have wanted our marriage to continue?"
> 
> Then watch him when he answers.


 @MattMatt No, he can be a very charming man. The anger is reserved for family mainly. My therapist wants me to look at why this is as well.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

camerashy said:


> MattMatt said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does he behave like this -being rude, swearing, ranting- at work?
> 
> Or does he save it up and unfairly unleash it on you at home? My wife has a tendency to do this. It was quite a while before I figured it out.
> 
> I think your husband has issues that might be assisted by counselling. But if he refuses to accept this idea, there's very little you can do.
> 
> Ask him this question: "If I had not met that man when I was drunk, putting that to one side, would you still have wanted our marriage to continue?"
> 
> Then watch him when he answers.
> 
> 
> 
> @MattMatt No, he can be a very charming man. The anger is reserved for family mainly. My therapist wants me to look at why this is as well.
Click to expand...

Wow that's very interesting! Is it possible you guys are so misreading each other that he feels you're constantly humiliating or emasculating him? I can't imagine any other reason someone would react so hostilely to just a spouse.

That kind of reaction definitely indicates there's strong emotions there - I doubt he's indifferent to you or has emotionally moved on if it's just you he reacts this way to.


----------



## MattMatt

camerashy said:


> @MattMatt No, he can be a very charming man. The anger is reserved for family mainly. My therapist wants me to look at why this is as well.


That's an example of abusive behaviour.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

MattMatt said:


> camerashy said:
> 
> 
> 
> @MattMatt No, he can be a very charming man. The anger is reserved for family mainly. My therapist wants me to look at why this is as well.
> 
> 
> 
> That's an example of abusive behaviour.
Click to expand...

Or a reaction to perceived abusive behavior.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

camerashy said:


> Armed with some of the things I've learned - about myself, my H, our M - from the thoughtful comments posted on here, I approached my H today and forced a conversation that should have happened a long time ago.
> 
> He started to get worked up, but I told him that he needed to stay as calm and rational as possible, otherwise I wouldn't feel comfortable saying what I needed to say. For the most part, he complied. And we talked properly for the first time in months.
> 
> I told him how sorry I was, for the hurt it has caused him and us, and how I understand that it has caused him to doubt something about me that he has never had to doubt before.
> 
> He apologized for pushing me out the door in the first place. I told him how it felt and how alone I was considering most of my family isn't in the UK
> 
> I asked him how we thinks we got to this point and he said that he really struggles to understand me sometimes. He knows that I don't like having arguments, but he sees them as being normal and that when I run away from our problems it comes across to him that I am cold and unfeeling. That I don't care enough about fixing the issues we have.
> 
> He said that when he going through his stuff at work, I didn't say the one thing that he needed to hear which was "I believe you." It really blew my mind how one simple statement had caused him to doubt the trust between us. I told him that of course I believed him, but he said that I said everything BUT that. And it did his head in.
> 
> He feels that there was never any cause for an investigation and that he feels that the firm has wronged him.
> 
> He feels that I've severed the trust between us and he can't get it out of his head. Even at work he's paranoid about what I am doing all day. He hates it. He also feels humiliated (I apologized for all this).
> 
> He also feels like we're probably going to get divorced.
> 
> I asked him why he wanted the break to begin with and he said he needed space to feel how he felt. I asked if he feels that he can't do that with me at home and he said no. Sometimes he wants to throw a fit, and be mad at the world and I don't let him do that. So we end up fighting and he ends up having extra stress.
> 
> He thinks I need to harden up and stop avoiding things.
> 
> I asked him if he realized how much he hurts me when he says horrible/disgusting things to me and he said that it just comes out most of the time and he doesn't realize until later just how bad what he said was.
> 
> He said that's its normal for him, he knows I don't like it, but he can't control his temper sometimes.
> 
> I told him that sometimes I feel that he says abusive things in order to manipulate me and he said he didn't think he was doing that.
> 
> I asked about MC and he declined, and also said that at this stage he's not sure how hard he's willing to try and make this work, because of my mistake and the fact he won't be able to trust me again.
> 
> He told me he was unhappy and asked if I was. I said yes and he had toget ready for work at that point so the conversation was put on hold.


Well, you have your answers. Now, do not settle or wait for him to start treating you correctly. You decide on if you really want reconciliation. Yes, you can still love someone and not be good for each other. No real rush,but make sure you make an informed decision. If it means time to go, then do so.


----------



## camerashy

TheTruthHurts said:


> Wow that's very interesting! Is it possible you guys are so misreading each other that he feels you're constantly humiliating or emasculating him? I can't imagine any other reason someone would react so hostilely to just a spouse.
> 
> That kind of reaction definitely indicates there's strong emotions there - I doubt he's indifferent to you or has emotionally moved on if it's just you he reacts this way to.


 @TheTruthHurts That's basically what my therapist says. He said I need to really feel into the relationship and figure out whether my H hurts me unintentionally or whether it is intentional because the reasons behind either can be very different. It's not so much the fact that my H's words hurt me, it's that I need to read into whether there is intention behind it.

He used a great analogy when he described it to me. He said that if you point a gun at someone, whether your hit or miss is completely irrelevant to the situation. When you pointed the gun, if the intention was aggressive, it was aggressive.


----------



## MrsAldi

@camerashy I'm glad to see some progress for you.
It did seem like a very "clinical" conversation though. 
Was there any "I still love you" or any of that type of thing mentioned?

Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


----------



## MattMatt

TheTruthHurts said:


> Or a reaction to perceived abusive behavior.


Sounds like my late father. A lovely, charming man to the world. And not quite so charming to his family.

It *is* abusive behaviour.


----------



## oneMOreguy

sparrow55 said:


> The problem is that people formed their opinions after reading one post and then are tuning their arguments according to their original bias and agenda, instead of asking OP for additional information about her situation.


yes...a thousand times, yes


----------



## camerashy

MrsAldi said:


> @camerashy I'm glad to see some progress for you.
> It did seem like a very "clinical" conversation though.
> Was there any "I still love you" or any of that type of thing mentioned?
> 
> Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


 @MrsAldi Wasn't super clinical, but I really tried to make the most of it and get as much communication happening as possible. 

No I love yous.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

MattMatt said:


> TheTruthHurts said:
> 
> 
> 
> Or a reaction to perceived abusive behavior.
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like my late father. A lovely, charming man to the world. And not quite so charming to his family.
> 
> It *is* abusive behaviour.
Click to expand...

Or it IS a reaction to perceived abusive behavior.


----------



## wise

This whole situation just sounds sketchy.

Your husband is a joke, and it needs to be said. The guy threw you out of your own home and wanted a break. He destroyed everything you built with him. And now, it is ALL YOUR fault, according to him.

Never mind the fact that he threw you out of your home, never mind that he hurts you when he says horrible and disgusting things to you, never mind any of his problems. According to him, that is what is *normal* for him.

You on the other hand. Your the whole reason the ship is going down. He cannot trust you, you need to be tougher and stronger, and you give him extra stress because you don't do this and yadadada.

I hope you get the point. He is allowed to say horrible and disgusting things to you because that's just normal but you need to change and learn how to be conflicting, tougher, and stronger for him. He is allowed to throw you out of the marital home and ABANDON you but you broke the trust by kissing another guy. Remember, he didn't break the trust by throwing you out for weeks. It wasn't him. It's all your fault.

I'm sorry honey, but you kissing that guy was a blessing in disguise. You would be a lot better without him.


----------



## blahfridge

camerashy said:


> @MrsAldi Wasn't super clinical, but I really tried to make the most of it and get as much communication happening as possible.
> 
> No I love yous.


I'm sad for you, camerashy. Do you still love him? If so, then I would make sure he knows it by telling him and showing him. 

Do all that you can to fix things on your end and then, if it doesn't work out, you will know that it was not because you didn't try. The rest is up to him.


----------



## Kobold

Bibi1031 said:


> I honestly can't blame you for not believing this. It's very probable that I am correct though. It took me until just a couple of months ago to realize that I had married an abuser too. I know a thing or two about this subject as I am a counselor in real life. I work in an elementary school and part time in a woman's shelter as well. I deal mostly with children though. But abusers have very similar characteristics in common regardless of what label we choose to attach on them. I couldn't even see it when I was living it! My 2nd X would make me feel so guilty and completely confused that it took me years to see through his crap.
> 
> Yes indeed, I had knowledge and yet I drank his Koolaid for a very long time...sigh


From reading your posts on this thread I believe you're projecting quite a bit of your own past onto OP's husbands behavior. You spoke before about people not trusting counselors, but your posts on this thread are the best explanation I've seen for why your profession is so frequently looked at with a raised eyebrow. Many people who are drawn into such a career path have been personally affected by their own abuse/trauma and while they may have the best of intentions, their counsel can become so heavily filtered through their "abuse colored glasses" they wind up seeing monsters that aren't truly there.



MattMatt said:


> I based my comment on my understanding of what Camerashy wrote about her husband's poor attitude toward his workplace and his colleagues because he seemed to believe he should have been exempt from the standard employment policy of being investigated for any allegations of impropriety.
> 
> He was exonerated.
> 
> But that wasn't enough.
> 
> He had the support of his wife.
> 
> But that wasn't enough.
> 
> The man has problems.


Perhaps he simply wasn't happy about being falsely accused of something that could have easily cost him everything he's spent the last "x" amount of years working towards. Why does it need to be any more complicated than that? In spite of OP's own opinion and the absence of any actual evidence, many have speculated that he's an adulterer, now we're gonna discern what his hidden motives are when he reacts to a situation that most of us have never even faced? 

This goes back to my previous point about seeing monsters that aren't there. Everything this man does is being filtered through the "This guy sucks" funnel because we've all collectively decided that he's an a**hole. And maybe he is an a**hole, he could be, I don't know the man, but I do know that we're all now discussing HIS character flaws and HIS moral failings and yet somehow we've all forgotten about why she's even here in the first place. Perhaps this is why the OP's husband isn't exactly enthused about MC, if it goes anything like this thread he'll be accepting the blame for her infidelity while getting double teamed by her and the counselor.


----------



## wise

> Perhaps this is why the OP's husband isn't exactly enthused about MC, if it goes anything like this thread he'll be accepting the blame for her infidelity while getting double teamed by her and the counselor.


Wait, so you can kick your wife out of the marital home so you can take a break from her and then be mad at your wife when she kisses another guy? Oh, lord.

Please, buddy. He had it coming. Any guy who throws his wife out the marital home no longer deserves her, unless it for a valid reason. A 'break' is not a valid reason.


----------



## MrsAldi

camerashy said:


> @MrsAldi Wasn't super clinical, but I really tried to make the most of it and get as much communication happening as possible.
> 
> No I love yous.


Were you guys the really affection type couple beforehand? 
Hugs, kisses, cuddles? 
Or was it a more intellectual based marriage?

Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


----------



## Bibi1031

Kobold said:


> From reading your posts on this thread I believe you're projecting quite a bit of your own past onto OP's husbands behavior. You spoke before about people not trusting counselors, but your posts on this thread are the best explanation I've seen for why your profession is so frequently looked at with a raised eyebrow. Many people who are drawn into such a career path have been personally affected by their own abuse/trauma and while they may have the best of intentions, their counsel can become so heavily filtered through their "abuse colored glasses" they wind up seeing monsters that aren't truly there.


Well, there are different areas of expertise in the field you know...oh wait, you probably don't know::

Do you lump all doctors the same way?  All lawyers as well?


----------



## camerashy

Kobold said:


> This goes back to my previous point about seeing monsters that aren't there. Everything this man does is being filtered through the "This guy sucks" funnel because we've all collectively decided that he's an a**hole.* And maybe he is an a**hole, he could be, I don't know the man, but I do know that we're all now discussing HIS character flaws and HIS moral failings and yet somehow we've all forgotten about why she's even here in the first place.* Perhaps this is why the OP's husband isn't exactly enthused about MC, if it goes anything like this thread he'll be accepting the blame for her infidelity while getting double teamed by her and the counselor.


 @Kobold I certainly haven't forgotten.


----------



## camerashy

MrsAldi said:


> Were you guys the really affection type couple beforehand?
> Hugs, kisses, cuddles?
> Or was it a more intellectual based marriage?
> 
> Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


 @MrsAldi A bit of both. I'm not overly fond of too much of the former, though. It's definitely something I've had to grow into.

As of right now, though, lol....no.


----------



## MattMatt

Kobold said:


> From reading your posts on this thread I believe you're projecting quite a bit of your own past onto OP's husbands behavior. You spoke before about people not trusting counselors, but your posts on this thread are the best explanation I've seen for why your profession is so frequently looked at with a raised eyebrow. Many people who are drawn into such a career path have been personally affected by their own abuse/trauma and while they may have the best of intentions, their counsel can become so heavily filtered through their "abuse colored glasses" they wind up seeing monsters that aren't truly there.
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps he simply wasn't happy about being falsely accused of something that could have easily cost him everything he's spent the last "x" amount of years working towards. Why does it need to be any more complicated than that? In spite of OP's own opinion and the absence of any actual evidence, many have speculated that he's an adulterer, now we're gonna discern what his hidden motives are when he reacts to a situation that most of us have never even faced?
> 
> This goes back to my previous point about seeing monsters that aren't there. Everything this man does is being filtered through the "This guy sucks" funnel because we've all collectively decided that he's an a**hole. And maybe he is an a**hole, he could be, I don't know the man, but I do know that we're all now discussing HIS character flaws and HIS moral failings and yet somehow we've all forgotten about why she's even here in the first place. Perhaps this is why the OP's husband isn't exactly enthused about MC, if it goes anything like this thread he'll be accepting the blame for her infidelity while getting double teamed by her and the counselor.


Why is she here? Because her husband demanded a separation so he could ""find"" himself?

My word! Does he wear beads and a kaftan?


----------



## MrsAldi

@camerashy he states that you have come across "cold & unfeeling"
A bit of affection towards him might help soothe the hurt caused. 
(Only if you want to) 
Also physical affection is known to calm down anger & temper tantrums. 
My husband can be cold & distant due to the nature of his job, it takes him a while to decompress when he's home, he might not want to talk about what's going on but a hug or kiss indicates that I'm here if he wants to talk. 



Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Bibi1031 said:


> Well, there are different areas of expertise in the field you know...oh wait, you probably don't know::
> 
> Do you lump all doctors the same way?  All lawyers as well?


 See camera, this is why some people want you to make sure you aren't being myopic. Bibli did this EXACT same thing earlier and is now pointing it out in someone else.

We don't always see our own mistakes and flaws in life, let alone in marriages. This is why the counselor is saying check your actions as closely as you do his because as he read a lack of support in you, you may see the same in him. Then again, you may see his anger is a symptom of your behavior, which doesn't make it right, but may make you see how you both fed into the marital problems.


----------



## Bibi1031

MrsAldi said:


> @camerashy he states that you have come across "cold & unfeeling"
> A bit of affection towards him might help soothe the hurt caused.
> (Only if you want to)
> Also physical affection is known to calm down anger & temper tantrums.
> My husband can be cold & distant due to the nature of his job, it takes him a while to decompress when he's home, he might not want to talk about what's going on but a hug or kiss indicates that I'm here if he wants to talk.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


:nono:a


Please wait on this one. When he is ready he will give signals. You know him best Camerashy. Proceed with extreme caution. I know you are not in any physical danger, but his rejection will cut very very deep.


----------



## Bibi1031

phillybeffandswiss said:


> See camera, this is why some people want you to make sure you aren't being myopic. Bibli did this EXACT same thing earlier and is now pointing it out in someone else.
> 
> We don't always see our own mistakes and flaws in life, let alone in marriages. This is why the counselor is saying check your actions as closely as you do his because as he read a lack of support in you, you may see the same in him. Then again, you may see his anger is a symptom of your behavior, which doesn't make it right, but may make you see how you both fed into the marital problems.


My opinions/mistakes/observations/assumptions etc. are not all that important. Her needs and wants are!

She is still living with him. She is still trying to communicate with him. She doesn't fear him because she knows she has the strength to wait this out. She loves her husband. She wants to save her marriage!

New goal here guys regardless of our differences of opinion. The ballgame changed when she stepped foot in their home once again. 

I for one hope that my gut is dead wrong about her husband. It's not personal for me; it's very personal for her!

We are rooting for you Camerashy, which ever way YOU want this to end and for as long as it takes :smile2:


----------



## Marduk

camerashy said:


> @TheTruthHurts That's basically what my therapist says. He said I need to really feel into the relationship and figure out whether my H hurts me unintentionally or whether it is intentional because the reasons behind either can be very different. It's not so much the fact that my H's words hurt me, it's that I need to read into whether there is intention behind it.
> 
> He used a great analogy when he described it to me. He said that if you point a gun at someone, whether your hit or miss is completely irrelevant to the situation. When you pointed the gun, if the intention was aggressive, it was aggressive.


When I was super angstful and broken in my early 20s I gravitated to super angstful and broken women. 

It's not rocket science.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Bibi1031 said:


> My opinions/mistakes/observations/assumptions etc. are not all that important. Her needs and wants are


I know, it's why I tied your comment into my point, which was specifically addressed to her. It's why I keep pointing out their communications issues are almost as bad, some would say the same, as her cheating.

It's a new goal for you, but what I've been doing since the start of the thread. Giver her reasons, which turned out to be true, why he is acting a fool. Then point out why they are having issues and ways they can move past the cheating and bad communication.

I'll just go back to not directly addressing your posts after this response.


----------



## Bibi1031

phillybeffandswiss said:


> I know,* it's why I tied your comment*
> 
> and my name as well :smile2:
> 
> 
> 
> *It's a new goal for you*,
> 
> :nono:
> 
> Perceptions, perceptions, perceptions...sigh
> 
> *I'll just go back to not directly addressing your posts after this response.*
> 
> Yes please...thank you! :rules:


----------



## sparrow55

camerashy said:


> Armed with some of the things I've learned - about myself, my H, our M - from the thoughtful comments posted on here, I approached my H today and forced a conversation that should have happened a long time ago.
> 
> He started to get worked up, but I told him that he needed to stay as calm and rational as possible, otherwise I wouldn't feel comfortable saying what I needed to say. For the most part, he complied. And we talked properly for the first time in months.
> 
> I told him how sorry I was, for the hurt it has caused him and us, and how I understand that it has caused him to doubt something about me that he has never had to doubt before.
> 
> He apologized for pushing me out the door in the first place. I told him how it felt and how alone I was considering most of my family isn't in the UK
> 
> I asked him how we thinks we got to this point and he said that he really struggles to understand me sometimes. He knows that I don't like having arguments, but he sees them as being normal and that when I run away from our problems it comes across to him that I am cold and unfeeling. That I don't care enough about fixing the issues we have.
> 
> He said that when he going through his stuff at work, I didn't say the one thing that he needed to hear which was "I believe you." It really blew my mind how one simple statement had caused him to doubt the trust between us. I told him that of course I believed him, but he said that I said everything BUT that. And it did his head in.
> 
> He feels that there was never any cause for an investigation and that he feels that the firm has wronged him.
> 
> He feels that I've severed the trust between us and he can't get it out of his head. Even at work he's paranoid about what I am doing all day. He hates it. He also feels humiliated (I apologized for all this).
> 
> He also feels like we're probably going to get divorced.
> 
> I asked him why he wanted the break to begin with and he said he needed space to feel how he felt. I asked if he feels that he can't do that with me at home and he said no. Sometimes he wants to throw a fit, and be mad at the world and I don't let him do that. So we end up fighting and he ends up having extra stress.
> 
> He thinks I need to harden up and stop avoiding things.
> 
> I asked him if he realized how much he hurts me when he says horrible/disgusting things to me and he said that it just comes out most of the time and he doesn't realize until later just how bad what he said was.
> 
> *He said that's its normal for him, he knows I don't like it, but he can't control his temper sometimes.
> *
> *I told him that sometimes I feel that he says abusive things in order to manipulate me and he said he didn't think he was doing that.
> *
> I asked about MC and he declined, and also said that at this stage he's not sure how hard he's willing to try and make this work, because of my mistake and the fact he won't be able to trust me again.
> 
> He told me he was unhappy and asked if I was. I said yes and he had toget ready for work at that point so the conversation was put on hold.



He likes to play victim a little too much. The first half of the post gave me some hope. But after reading the rest of the post, I think he is manipulative. He picked one line you did not say and is using it to guilt you. 

While he seems to have no issues pointing out all your perceived faults, he is hypocritically obtuse and flippant about your concerns about his. he has very high standards for your behavior with little introspection of his own. 



> *He said that's its normal for him, he knows I don't like it, but he can't control his temper sometimes.
> *


Notice this line. This is him acknowledging that he is abusive but he does not bother enough or love you enough to make adjustments to his sh!tty behavior. This is not a good person @camerashy

You are incredibly lucky that you do not have kids with him.


----------



## drifting on

camerashy said:


> @MrsAldi A woman about my age from my H workplace, accused my H and another man of sending her inappropriate emails. There was an internal investigation done after the woman failed to produce any evidence, and the computer technicians didn't find anything either. She admitted that she had lied about the emails and quit not long after. My H is a very proud man and a very hard worker. He was very upset that his word was not taken at face value, and that an investigation had to be done. I told him that any accusation of that nature has to be taken seriously (and rightly so) and that it would all blow over. And it did.




How closely did you all read this post? This is part of the reason I'm hesitant to condemn the husband as others have. It states there was an internal investigation AFTER the woman did not produce any evidence AND the computer technicians found nothing. Any employee who is investigated AFTER would suffer a hard hit to their self esteem and work ethic. I can understand the husbands position on this especially if he has never before been accused of wrongdoing. Even more so if I gave everything I had to give towards my job as to which I do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Maxo

wise said:


> Wait, so you can kick your wife out of the marital home so you can take a break from her and then be mad at your wife when she kisses another guy? Oh, lord.
> 
> Please, buddy. He had it coming. Any guy who throws his wife out the marital home no longer deserves her, unless it for a valid reason. A 'break' is not a valid reason.


She was not kicked out. He volunteered to leave but she insisted that she leave. Vows were still in effect. They are.VOWS,not to be taken lightly and designed to withstand tough times.
Being asked for a break to think about things would not invalidate the VOw of fidelity.
That is much too casual an understanding of a VOW,IMO.
Do you,routinely, go back on your word when the going gets rough?


----------



## Maxo

What names does he call you? I could not imagine calling my XW a name in an argument,despite the extreme provocation the disordered are adept at( preposition,GP).


----------



## Maxo

Bibi1031 said:


> Well, there are different areas of expertise in the field you know...oh wait, you probably don't know::
> 
> Do you lump all doctors the same way?  All lawyers as well?
> 
> I noticed the projection and misandry right off,as well.:allhail:


----------



## drifting on

camerashy said:


> @Dyokemm I definitely get what you're saying... and it's really hard to explain. It's really hard to support someone who throws his toys out of the cot every time something doesn't go his way. He was understandably really upset that the woman laid allegations against him, but even after he had been cleared of these, none of his anger diminished. The types of outbursts I'm talking about are...things like yelling to get his point across every time we had a disagreement, criticizing things I was cooking (even things I have cooked for him multiple times - and I'm not a bad cook), criticizing my appearance, my work...the sorts of things he wouldn't normally criticize. And with a lot of colorful language.
> 
> I guess what I mean by "tried my best to support him," is that I started out trying to talk to him about the situation and assure him that everything would be fine and after that only caused more fights, I kept my mouth shut and agreed with everything he said. There's probably a whole lot more that I could have done.



@MattMatt

Second paragraph. She admits that there was much more she could have done. In post 175 her husband even told her that her actions showed she didn't believe him about the accusations. These are her words mattmatt, if you disagree then bring it up with camerashy. In my post I asked camerashy if my words were accurate. Nowhere in that post did I ask for your opinion, I asked OP for clarification, but thanks for trying to cloud that up too!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Bibi1031

All this attention hanging on my EVERY word...

and to be imitated with ALL those emoticons...oh my!:surprise:

You know the saying: Imitation is the best form of flattery>

Peace out Maxo!:fro:


----------



## Maxo

Bibi1031 said:


> All this attention hanging on my EVERY word...
> 
> and to be imitated with ALL those emoticons...oh my!:surprise:
> 
> You know the saying: Imitation is the best form of flattery>
> 
> Peace out Maxo!:fro:


OK. Say hi to Ms. Dworkin.


----------



## drifting on

wise said:


> Wait, so you can kick your wife out of the marital home so you can take a break from her and then be mad at your wife when she kisses another guy? Oh, lord.
> 
> Please, buddy. He had it coming. Any guy who throws his wife out the marital home no longer deserves her, unless it for a valid reason. A 'break' is not a valid reason.





Until separation papers are completed you are still married. Both OP and her husband discussed about who would leave, it was decided that she leave as her work schedule had gaps. This is what OP said it was decided that she leave die to her work schedule. Where did he kick her out? If he kicked her out why have a discussion about who leaves? So if OP demanded he leave and he cheats like OP did, you would say she deserved it? Really?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Maxo

drifting on said:


> Until separation papers are completed you are still married. Both OP and her husband discussed about who would leave, it was decided that she leave as her work schedule had gaps. This is what OP said it was decided that she leave die to her work schedule. Where did he kick her out? If he kicked her out why have a discussion about who leaves? So if OP demanded he leave and he cheats like OP did, you would say she deserved it? Really?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


POSTER must not have read the part where this was discussed.


----------



## Maxo

MattMatt said:


> In British Solicitors the amount of sexual harassment and other illegal practices is legendary.
> 
> I even heard of a case where the head of a firm of Solicitor's employment law expert was unaware that there had been a major piece of new employment law that meant his defence was dead in the water.


Counselors-therapists are among the worst sexual harrassment and patient banging offenders. They are getting sued right and left for this crap.


----------



## Maxo

MattMatt said:


> Sounds like my late father. A lovely, charming man to the world. And not quite so charming to his family.
> 
> It *is* abusive behaviour.


You should seek therapy to deal with this. Just be careful. Sexual harassment and preying on patients is legendary among therapists. So,be careful.


----------



## WonkyNinja

camerashy said:


> A few months ago, my H was experiencing some conflict at work. Someone at his job had started a rumor about him (that I knew was untrue) and although it resolved itself fairly quickly, his pride was hurt. During this time, I had been commissioned for a job that took me away from home for a week. This is normal for me. The job had been prearranged a few months prior, and in my line of work, opportunities can sometimes be few and far between.





drifting on said:


> How closely did you all read this post? This is part of the reason I'm hesitant to condemn the husband as others have. It states there was an internal investigation AFTER the woman did not produce any evidence AND the computer technicians found nothing. Any employee who is investigated AFTER would suffer a hard hit to their self esteem and work ethic. I can understand the husbands position on this especially if he has never before been accused of wrongdoing. Even more so if I gave everything I had to give towards my job as to which I do.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But he's a Lawyer. 

Someone aiming allegations against him and then failing to provide any evidence should be just water off a ducks back. 

I was going to say that if he knew that they weren't sent and is worried that he can't prove it then he really needs to find another career fast, but he also knows that she needs to prove the emails were sent not him disprove it. 

That shouldn't have even rated as a conflict. And what kind of stupid does it take to make groundless accusations when you work in a law office.


----------



## aine

Camerashy, your H sounds as if he is wallowing in self pity and you are his punching bag. As others have pointed out, neither of you are perfect but the lack of ownership he shows for his own actions suggest a man who is very self absorbed and unable to really 'see' you. His refusal to go to MC or IC, his unwillingness to consider the damage his abusive yelling and words do to you, his use of you to vent his anger just because you didn't say words prescribed by him. This coupled with all the red flags I mentioned in an earlier post suggest you do not have the full picture and he is looking for an 'excuse.'

How do you actually feel about your H? It takes two people to commit and work on a marriage and it seems as if he is not prepared to get out of his wallowing and do so. He has now told you that you will most probably divorce without any discussion, counselling, marriage counselling, etc. I am not buying this at all, I think there is more. I would do the 180 and see a lawyer to see what your rights are. Tell him he cannot throw words like divorce around and not expect you to take action to protect yourself.


----------



## camerashy

Maxo said:


> What names does he call you? I could not imagine calling my XW a name in an argument,despite the extreme provocation the disordered are adept at( preposition,GP).


 @Maxo It varies. Sometimes it's things that are insulting (like telling me to shut up because I'm an idiot) and hurtful (calling me a b1tch etc), and other times it can be things that make me feel really bad about myself (the sort of stuff I can't post on here). 




aine said:


> Camerashy, your H sounds as if he is wallowing in self pity and you are his punching bag. As others have pointed out, neither of you are perfect but the lack of ownership he shows for his own actions suggest a man who is very self absorbed and unable to really 'see' you. His refusal to go to MC or IC, his unwillingness to consider the damage his abusive yelling and words do to you, his use of you to vent his anger just because you didn't say words prescribed by him. This coupled with all the red flags I mentioned in an earlier post suggest you do not have the full picture and he is looking for an 'excuse.'
> 
> How do you actually feel about your H? It takes two people to commit and work on a marriage and it seems as if he is not prepared to get out of his wallowing and do so. He has now told you that you will most probably divorce without any discussion, counselling, marriage counselling, etc. I am not buying this at all, I think there is more. I would do the 180 and see a lawyer to see what your rights are. Tell him he cannot throw words like divorce around and not expect you to take action to protect yourself.


 @aine How do I feel about him? That's the million dollar question isn't it? These past 4-5 months have seen sides of us both come out that I don't like. It was easy to ignore in the beginning when we didn't fight all the time. I didn't think we would become this.


----------



## MattMatt

drifting on said:


> @MattMatt
> 
> Second paragraph. She admits that there was much more she could have done. In post 175 her husband even told her that her actions showed she didn't believe him about the accusations. These are her words mattmatt, if you disagree then bring it up with camerashy. In my post I asked camerashy if my words were accurate. Nowhere in that post did I ask for your opinion, I asked OP for clarification, but thanks for trying to cloud that up too!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is because she is an honest person. She thought she was doing enough but when her husband confronted her she admitted she could have done more.

Of course her husband took this as an admission that she had done nothing and went all "rightous indignation" on her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## camerashy

WonkyNinja said:


> But he's a Lawyer.
> 
> Someone aiming allegations against him and then failing to provide any evidence should be just water off a ducks back.
> 
> I was going to say that if he knew that they weren't sent and is worried that he can't prove it then he really needs to find another career fast, but he also knows that she needs to prove the emails were sent not him disprove it.
> 
> That shouldn't have even rated as a conflict. And what kind of stupid does it take to make groundless accusations when you work in a law office.


 @WonkyNinja That is basically how I felt about it at the time. I don't really think I "got" how hard it was for him. And from the bits and pieces he drip fed me, I knew the allegations were untrue, but I understood that the office had to follow protocol. Things like that don't get brushed under the carpet. Not when the firm's reputation is at stake. I thought I was being supportive of him with my relentless optimism that her lies would be found out and it would all blow over - but in hindsight there were probably other things I could have done instead.

I definitely can appreciate how hard it must be to have your whole career hang in the balance over something that wasn't true, but at the time, I couldn't help but think that he deals with conflict every day - surely it's not the end of the world. He wasn't exactly forthcoming with the details either.


----------



## camerashy

MattMatt said:


> Of course her husband took this as an admission that she had done nothing and went all "rightous indignation" on her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 @MattMatt That's honestly what it felt like.


----------



## MattMatt

camerashy said:


> @MattMatt That's honestly what it felt like.


Yes. But there are some people in your thread who have decided you are an evil person and that your husband is a saint. 

They are being ridiculous and are not helping you. I think there is perhaps one person who might be trying to chase you off.

Don't take any nonsense from anyone. If you see any personal attacks on you or on any other TAM member in your thread please use the Report button because that is what it is there for. 

Stay strong, be positive and hopefully your husband will become more reasonable.

Some people are against therapy because they are scared of what it might reveal. They feel they must be in control of everything 100% of the time. And being open and vulnerable to a therapist endangers this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## camerashy

MattMatt said:


> Yes. But there are some people in your thread who have decided you are an evil person and that your husband is a saint.
> 
> They are being ridiculous and are not helping you. I think there is perhaps one person who might be trying to chase you off.
> 
> Don't take any nonsense from anyone. If you see any personal attacks on you or on any other TAM member in your thread please use the Report button because that is what it is there for.
> 
> Stay strong, be positive and hopefully your husband will become more reasonable.
> 
> Some people are against therapy because they are scared of what it might reveal. They feel they must be in control of everything 100% of the time. And being open and vulnerable to a therapist endangers this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 @MattMatt Honestly M, there is not one thing a single person in this thread could say that I haven't already told myself or even comes close how to badly I'm beating myself up. And having not been on the other side (the betrayed) like some of these folks have, I can only imagine what that sort of betrayal feels like. They can identify with what I can't.

Good people have strong morals :smile2:


----------



## MattMatt

camerashy said:


> @MattMatt Honestly M, there is not one thing a single person in this thread could say that I haven't already told myself or even comes close how to badly I'm beating myself up. And having not been on the other side (the betrayed) like some of these folks have, I can only imagine what that sort of betrayal feels like. They can identify with what I can't.
> 
> Good people have strong morals :smile2:


I can identify with your husband as I have been cheated on in far worse ways. 

However I can also identify with you having been in your situation.

I just believe there needs to be a balanced view of the situation.

Your husband did not deserve to be cheated on but you did not deserve to be bullied and treated badly beforehand.

Two wrongs make a right? Not really.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

drifting on said:


> How closely did you all read this post? This is part of the reason I'm hesitant to condemn the husband as others have. It states there was an internal investigation AFTER the woman did not produce any evidence AND the computer technicians found nothing. Any employee who is investigated AFTER would suffer a hard hit to their self esteem and work ethic. I can understand the husbands position on this especially if he has never before been accused of wrongdoing. Even more so if I gave everything I had to give towards my job as to which I do.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The investigation would have been two pronged. 1) Did he send the emails? 2) Why did the colleague lie about being sent the emails? 

As a result of the investigation the woman resigned.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Saph_

You've owned up about the cheating and have felt and feel remorse. Good. No need to have yet another poster who condemns you for making a mistake that you clearly feel remorse for. Moving on.

What I do want to say though is, I hope you know that you do NOT deserve to be told to shut up, be called an idiot, be called a ***** or be told things that make you feel bad about yourself. What your husband is doing is abusive. 

I would be focusing more on that than the fact that you kissed someone else. Cheating doesn't mean you get to abuse your partner. That doesn't help the reconciliation process. He's harming you and his own integrity while he's at it, and what he's doing to you is far worse than what you did. 
You don't deserve to put up with abuse just because you cheated. I'm not saying what you did wasn't ****ty but your husband has a choice to either leave or stay. But you can bet your behind that he doesn't get to stay if he's just going to abuse you mentally, verbally and emotionally.


----------



## MattMatt

Saph_ said:


> You've owned up about the cheating and have felt and feel remorse. Good. No need to have yet another poster who condemns you for making a mistake that you clearly feel remorse for. Moving on.
> 
> What I do want to say though is, I hope you know that you do NOT deserve to be told to shut up, be called an idiot, be called a ***** or be told things that make you feel bad about yourself. What your husband is doing is abusive.
> 
> I would be focusing more on that than the fact that you kissed someone else. Cheating doesn't mean you get to abuse your partner. That doesn't help the reconciliation process. He's harming you and his own integrity while he's at it, and what he's doing to you is far worse than what you did.
> You don't deserve to put up with abuse just because you cheated. I'm not saying what you did wasn't ****ty but your husband has a choice to either leave or stay.* But you can bet your behind that he doesn't get to stay if he's just going to abuse you mentally, verbally and emotionally.*


Which, weirdly, he was doing before the cheating incident?

I think he is making the marriage toxic. By accident or design? That's one thing that must be established before they can move on as a couple or as two sadder, but wiser, individuals. 

Actually I have a horrible doubt that the husband will be any wiser.

If they do divorce he could just become more embittered about how everyone (the world and his wife) is out to get him.


----------



## sparrow55

> other times it can be things that make me feel really bad about myself (the sort of stuff I can't post on here).


This is the second time you used those lines.. You could atleast categorize it as "he comments about my physical appearance negatively/my childhood and family/our sex life".

The reason I mention is that I am cncerned that you do not see the situation for what it is. Using the words "b1tch " and "s1ut" is already pretty bad, but somehow you initially categorized it as "we argue a lot"early in the thread. No decent guy uses these words. 
@camerashy


----------



## Saph_

MattMatt said:


> Which, weirdly, he was doing before the cheating incident?
> 
> 
> 
> I think he is making the marriage toxic. By accident or design? That's one thing that must be established before they can move on as a couple or as two sadder, but wiser, individuals.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually I have a horrible doubt that the husband will be any wiser.
> 
> 
> 
> If they do divorce he could just become more embittered about how everyone (the world and his wife) is out to get him.




He's definitely making the marriage toxic. Meanwhile, she's running around like a headless chicken trying to fix her marriage and he clearly lacks interest in participating. It takes two to fix a marriage. 

Camerashy, if you don't want to divorce, at the very least go 180 on his arse. Individual counselling would be beneficial for you. 

I would recommend marriage counselling but this about you building up your self esteem and creating a life for yourself outside of him. I also have a feeling he wouldn't take any interest in marriage counselling. 

Eventually, you'll see that you're better off without him. Try to figure out why you tolerate abuse. Emotional abuse cuts deeper than physical abuse and you already have terrible scars from a previous relationship and it disgusts me even more that your husband knows this yet abuses you anyway.


----------



## aine

How much of the allegations do you actually know about? Why would he drip feed you such information, why wouldn't he fully disclose all to you? Esp if he wanted you to support him, why not tell you everything?

Now I am beginning to wonder if there is more to that story. He may well have been exonerated but didn't you want to actually know the whole story? Do you know anyone in his firm you could speak with and see what they know? Do you know for a fact that he was exonerated? hmm?


----------



## Saph_

camerashy said:


> @MattMatt Honestly M, there is not one thing a single person in this thread could say that I haven't already told myself or even comes close how to badly I'm beating myself up. And having not been on the other side (the betrayed) like some of these folks have, I can only imagine what that sort of betrayal feels like. They can identify with what I can't.
> 
> 
> 
> Good people have strong morals :smile2:




Which your husband CLEARLY does NOT have. 

Nobody with strong morals would call his wife an idiot, a *****, a ****, tell her to shut up or emotionally abuse her in general. Your cheating has nothing to do with the fact that he's like this. He did this to you before you cheated. I don't know why you want to stay with someone who abuses you. Especially when you've already been abused before.

Don't you think you deserve better?


----------



## LosingHim

sparrow55 said:


> This is the second time you used those lines.. You could atleast categorize it as "he comments about my physical appearance negatively/my childhood and family/our sex life".
> 
> The reason I mention is that I am cncerned that you do not see the situation for what it is. Using the words "b1tch " and "s1ut" is already pretty bad, but somehow you initially categorized it as "we argue a lot"early in the thread. No decent guy uses these words.
> 
> @camerashy


I agree there needs to be some clarification on the things that he’s saying that you “can’t say here”. You’re leaving way too much open for interpretation. Are you afraid that if you post those things here that people will vilify him further? Or is it because you know that they are so abusive you have no reason to stay?

My ex husband called me every name under the sun. B!tch, wh*re, sl*t, skank, stupid, worthless, nothing without him, etc. He also hit me, choked me, kicked me and threw me outside naked more than once. I can tell you, the physical wounds have healed easily. Those emotional ones have not, over 11 years later.


----------



## Bibi1031

Camerashy, how's the snooping going? You have been working on you and that is great, but you need to be proactive in case your marriage does end in separation or divorce. 

Have you looked into a future that has these cards in it?

What are your plans moving forward? Who is your support system?

You need a few people that you trust that you can confide in while dealing with this ugly truth.


----------



## Maxo

camerashy said:


> @Maxo It varies. Sometimes it's things that are insulting (like telling me to shut up because I'm an idiot) and hurtful (calling me a b1tch etc), and other times it can be things that make me feel really bad about myself (the sort of stuff I can't post on here).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @aine How do I feel about him? That's the million dollar question isn't it? These past 4-5 months have seen sides of us both come out that I don't like. It was easy to ignore in the beginning when we didn't fight all the time. I didn't think we would become this.


Well, then I agree, he is abusive. That is really out of line.


----------



## LucasJackson

I have to be honest, now that I'm reading more and more you're posting about your husband it leads me to ask...

Why would you give a sh*t if he forgives you or not?

Why do you want to be with him? He's an abusive a-hole. How he got there is irrelevant.

Life is too short for this kind of crap. Cut him loose and maybe both of you can find happiness in your lives. Sure you'll mourn the loss of the marriage but you'll be happier in the long run. I promise that.


----------



## Bibi1031

LosingHim said:


> *I agree there needs to be some clarification on the things that he’s saying that you “can’t say here”. *


If she can't and isn't ready, that has got to wait. I know that when I came here, I posted about my X and how things were weird. It was not taken well. I was blamed and flamed for everything pretty much. Needless to say I felt paranoid and confused. I deleted my thread. Put hardly anything on my profile just in case he could be lurking (that is ridiculous of me to think but I did).

So instead, I started posting on others threads trying to help through my advice. Once my identity was established, things were different. I posted about my relationship, why it ended, my doubts, my needs, the fact that I still loved him and maybe things would work out and I could get back together with him. I was given excellent support through many warnings. I was not flamed or insulted, but was hit many a times with very needed 2X4s. 


My therapist asked what I wanted. I said I wanted to give my X and I another try. She said go for it, but remember he doesn't love you, but he is very attracted to you. This may work in the physical sense, but not for long.

I listened to *no one* except my heart. It was a total failure of course! He is a very abusive man and I fell right into my own deceit. I had conveniently forgotten why I walked away in the first place. I blocked it all out and focused on my huge love for him (gag me)


I did what I wanted, and the result was exactly what she warned me about. I became a doormat when we got back together. He is who he is, so the drama began and so did the blame shifting. I realized that doormats do nothing so I owned nothing. He couldn't make me feel guilt or shame for anything! I finally realized what a toxic person he was and how easily he could guilt me, confuse me, and turn my emotional life into a huge pile of mush!

What I am getting to with this rambling Camerashy is that you are back home now. It's probably painful, confusing and a lot of bad emotions going around. But you are taking all this in and you are observing everything here with clearer eyes. You are not shutting down. You have changed for the better. You may realize you were in a toxic relationship that is not worth saving. Or you may realize you had a marriage that was not perfect but worth living with. 

Cheating aside, you now see things more clearly regarding the dynamic you lived prior to it ALL being your fault. When the time comes for you to decide, you will leave with less confusion, guilt, etc.

The truth will be clearer in regards to your mistakes in this relationship, but also his. Whether he accepts or doesn't makes no difference to your acquired knowledge.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

@camerashy I'm very concerned that the "pile on evil H" crew here are giving you way too much of a pass on this. If you don't get your house in other, this and all your future relationships are really doomed to failure.

I think your H was right to question your love, commitment and the marriage in general. I don't think he has any right to personally insult you, but I am ignoring that because 1-EVERYONE already agreed that's wrong and 2-it distracts from what you HAVE been doing wrong.

I suggest you contact @BlossomLeigh here on TAM. She knows a lot about ACOA - adult children of alcoholics - and can probably help you see the patterns you are following and why they are impacting your self image and your relationships.

You seem to be distant and not emotionally disconnected to your H - based on your posts. This is how you likely come across to him. That feels like emotional neglect to a partner, and most people respond badly to that. Some react strongly (like H) and others add distance to the relationship.

I'm not saying you are distant or emotionally disconnected - but your avoidance behaviors and polyanna responses to relationship issues (it'll be ok - stop worrying, etc) is your way to avoid conflict and avoid seeing your partner in emotional stress. That looks like emotional distance. However - he deserves his own emotions and it is not helpful to try to protect him by attempting to shut this down - which is what you're trying to do.

This is standard stuff for ACOA but you can change it.

Ignore all the cheerleaders vilifying H - he's YOUR H so you must fully be in and support him or divorce. There is no middle ground.

Good luck

Btw I completely get that you feel like sh1t about yourself - but you have to pull yourself up and do the hard work - not AVOID it - which is your go-to strategy. YOU can do this


----------



## Maxo

LucasJackson said:


> I have to be honest, now that I'm reading more and more you're posting about your husband it leads me to ask...
> 
> Why would you give a sh*t if he forgives you or not?
> 
> Why do you want to be with him? He's an abusive a-hole. How he got there is irrelevant.
> 
> Life is too short for this kind of crap. Cut him loose and maybe both of you can find happiness in your lives. Sure you'll mourn the loss of the marriage but you'll be happier in the long run. I promise that.


I agree. No one should treat another person that way.

I experienced CSA, and wonder if it makes on e more tolerant of abuse.


----------



## drifting on

MattMatt said:


> The investigation would have been two pronged. 1) Did he send the emails? 2) Why did the colleague lie about being sent the emails?
> 
> As a result of the investigation the woman resigned.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




More then two pronged mattmatt, it's an internal investigation, everything he ever did electronically was scrutinized. OP told him to quit, get another job!!! How is that supportive. That was her best??? Don't worry it will blow over!!! In the meantime we may lose our livelihood, house, cars, but I'm here supporting you. All I'm saying is OP was not perfect, OP needs to own her mistakes, OP is responsible for half of the marriage problems and all of the cheating. I've seen you post some great stuff mattmatt, I mean that sincerely, and her husband is also in the wrong. You need to hold her accountable too, and basically most of your posts are defending her. I reread the two hundred posts last night, OP wasn't remorseful, you can clearly see that in her posts. Did you recall that OP even stated she moved his hand to her breast? OP needs to figure stuff out on her own too, or she will never be remorseful. 

I get that OP feels bad, is sorry, regretful, but that's not remorseful. This marriage probably will end in divorce, and my opinion is that's for the best. Neither will change as the resentment and anger is too deep. OP isn't going to stop running from problems tomorrow, most likely not for several months. But at least stop protecting and help her for her next relationship of marriage. Also, if you think I'm trying to run OP off you are sorely mistaken. I've posted with an open mind considering both the husband and OP, I've said I would leave this thread twice, but I haven't because I'm trying to help OP. Posters who have had an open mind have been having to deal with two others that have tried to run them off. @bibi wrote her best post just above this explaining some of what she went through, and she did it without protecting OP and being condescending about OP's husband.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## drifting on

TheTruthHurts said:


> @camerashy I'm very concerned that the "pile on evil H" crew here are giving you way too much of a pass on this. If you don't get your house in other, this and all your future relationships are really doomed to failure.
> 
> I think your H was right to question your love, commitment and the marriage in general. I don't think he has any right to personally insult you, but I am ignoring that because 1-EVERYONE already agreed that's wrong and 2-it distracts from what you HAVE been doing wrong.
> 
> I suggest you contact @BlossomLeigh here on TAM. She knows a lot about ACOA - adult children of alcoholics - and can probably help you see the patterns you are following and why they are impacting your self image and your relationships.
> 
> You seem to be distant and not emotionally disconnected to your H - based on your posts. This is how you likely come across to him. That feels like emotional neglect to a partner, and most people respond badly to that. Some react strongly (like H) and others add distance to the relationship.
> 
> I'm not saying you are distant or emotionally disconnected - but your avoidance behaviors and polyanna responses to relationship issues (it'll be ok - stop worrying, etc) is your way to avoid conflict and avoid seeing your partner in emotional stress. That looks like emotional distance. However - he deserves his own emotions and it is not helpful to try to protect him by attempting to shut this down - which is what you're trying to do.
> 
> This is standard stuff for ACOA but you can change it.
> 
> Ignore all the cheerleaders vilifying H - he's YOUR H so you must fully be in and support him or divorce. There is no middle ground.
> 
> Good luck
> 
> Btw I completely get that you feel like sh1t about yourself - but you have to pull yourself up and do the hard work - not AVOID it - which is your go-to strategy. YOU can do this




QFT, great post.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Saph_

LosingHim said:


> I agree there needs to be some clarification on the things that he’s saying that you “can’t say here”. You’re leaving way too much open for interpretation. Are you afraid that if you post those things here that people will vilify him further? Or is it because you know that they are so abusive you have no reason to stay?
> 
> 
> 
> My ex husband called me every name under the sun. B!tch, wh*re, sl*t, skank, stupid, worthless, nothing without him, etc. He also hit me, choked me, kicked me and threw me outside naked more than once. I can tell you, the physical wounds have healed easily. Those emotional ones have not, over 11 years later.




I'm so sorry.  
You are a beautiful, wonderful human being with so much strength. You are priceless. 

Same goes to you @camerashy, you are priceless and you deserve so much more than what you're getting. There is no reason for the abuse. He's not going to change. I really suggest you do 180 and build independence and find a sense of self love. Nobody who loved themselves would take this from anyone. No matter how much they thought they loved a person.


----------



## MrsAldi

Bibi1031 said:


> :nono:a
> 
> 
> Please wait on this one. When he is ready he will give signals. You know him best Camerashy. Proceed with extreme caution. I know you are not in any physical danger, but his rejection will cut very very deep.


Perhaps I didn't explain properly before. Apologies. 

I believe that Cam's HB was set up in his job, a woman falsely accused him of inappropriate behaviour in order to usurp him. 

In the middle of it all, he's worried about public opinion in his office, hence his anger & paranoia, then even his own Wife questions him at home to check if his guilty. 

Now let's imagine a man does this to me at my work & I go home, and my husband questions my actions instead of just supporting me, in my innocent state, yes I would question if we were indeed compatible & I might ask him for space to think about our future. 

Then during this time when we're on a "break", my husband decides to kiss another woman because I don't " listen " to him.

Then my husband confesses about the kiss, wants to save the marriage even though he's betrayed me twice. 

I'm not excusing Cam's husband's angry outbursts but I think every scenario should be considered. 

IMO he's hurting & doesn't know where to turn or who to trust, in his work & home. 

So yeah the man might just deserve a hug. 

Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Camera, go back and read the posts from the people who actually went through the minor or similar investigations. I worked there and those who went through it echoed and reinforced what I said. Now, I do agree with aine that he is now wallowing, but don't listen to anyone that minimizes what happened. This was and is no joke. As aldi said, there are people who use it to get inroads in their career and to protect their job. Many many many more complaints are legitimate and many more are frivolous misunderstandings. So, I'm not rallying against sexual harassment investigations, they are 100% necessary. I'm saying stay off the road of "it ain't that serious." It really is and can be devastating.

I'll say it again, do not stay if he will not at least see a marriage counselor. Yes, I know, it may mean it is over, but he needs to deal with this problem. Just from everything you've described you both right fight and hold grudges. Neither of these actions are conducive to married life. Yes, it is okay for you to make a demand, it is a shared marriage not just his. Oh and if h says it is over he gets to leave, don't walk out of your house again.


----------



## camerashy

sparrow55 said:


> This is the second time you used those lines.. You could atleast categorize it as "he comments about my physical appearance negatively/my childhood and family/our sex life".
> 
> The reason I mention is that I am cncerned that you do not see the situation for what it is. Using the words "b1tch " and "s1ut" is already pretty bad, but somehow you initially categorized it as "we argue a lot"early in the thread. No decent guy uses these words.





LosingHim said:


> I agree there needs to be some clarification on the things that he’s saying that you “can’t say here”. You’re leaving way too much open for interpretation. Are you afraid that if you post those things here that people will vilify him further? Or is it because you know that they are so abusive you have no reason to stay?
> 
> My ex husband called me every name under the sun. B!tch, wh*re, sl*t, skank, stupid, worthless, nothing without him, etc. He also hit me, choked me, kicked me and threw me outside naked more than once. I can tell you, the physical wounds have healed easily. Those emotional ones have not, over 11 years later.


 @sparrow55 @LosingHim I feel really uncomfortable saying the worse things on here, partly because it would make me look like an idiot for staying, partly because it can be really humiliating stuff - things that attack my character and things I've been though - and partly because I know that there is a real real chance that he could actually read this thread, cause I know he's keeping tabs on me at the moment.



Bibi1031 said:


> Camerashy, how's the snooping going? You have been working on you and that is great, but you need to be proactive in case your marriage does end in separation or divorce.
> 
> Have you looked into a future that has these cards in it?
> 
> What are your plans moving forward? Who is your support system?
> 
> You need a few people that you trust that you can confide in while dealing with this ugly truth.


 @Bibi1031 I decided against the snooping because I realized it wouldn't make one bit of difference. 

I don't even know how I'm feeling about him or our M right now...and I've thought about those things. I don't have an "excellent" support system in the UK, but I would be ok. 

I had to leave my last relationship with nothing but my life (thankfully) and my ATM card in my pocket and I was not quite 21 years old at the time. If there's one thing I know how to do well, it's surviving. 

If my M is over, then I will walk away. I don't want anything from him.


----------



## camerashy

LucasJackson said:


> I have to be honest, now that I'm reading more and more you're posting about your husband it leads me to ask...
> 
> *Why would you give a sh*t if he forgives you or not?
> 
> Why do you want to be with him?* He's an abusive a-hole. How he got there is irrelevant.
> 
> Life is too short for this kind of crap. Cut him loose and maybe both of you can find happiness in your lives. Sure you'll mourn the loss of the marriage but you'll be happier in the long run. I promise that.


 @LucasJackson I don't know if I do anymore.



drifting on said:


> More then two pronged mattmatt, it's an internal investigation, everything he ever did electronically was scrutinized. *OP told him to quit, get another job!!! How is that supportive. That was her best??? Don't worry it will blow over!!! In the meantime we may lose our livelihood, house, cars, but I'm here supporting you. All I'm saying is OP was not perfect, OP needs to own her mistakes, OP is responsible for half of the marriage problems and all of the cheating.* I've seen you post some great stuff mattmatt, I mean that sincerely, and her husband is also in the wrong. You need to hold her accountable too, and basically most of your posts are defending her. I reread the two hundred posts last night, OP wasn't remorseful, you can clearly see that in her posts. Did you recall that OP even stated she moved his hand to her breast? OP needs to figure stuff out on her own too, or she will never be remorseful.
> 
> I get that OP feels bad, is sorry, regretful, but that's not remorseful. This marriage probably will end in divorce, and my opinion is that's for the best. Neither will change as the resentment and anger is too deep. OP isn't going to stop running from problems tomorrow, most likely not for several months. But at least stop protecting and help her for her next relationship of marriage. Also, if you think I'm trying to run OP off you are sorely mistaken. I've posted with an open mind considering both the husband and OP, I've said I would leave this thread twice, but I haven't because I'm trying to help OP. Posters who have had an open mind have been having to deal with two others that have tried to run them off. @bibi wrote her best post just above this explaining some of what she went through, and she did it without protecting OP and being condescending about OP's husband.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





phillybeffandswiss said:


> *Camera, go back and read the posts from the people who actually went through the minor or similar investigations. I worked there and those who went through it echoed and reinforced what I said. Now, I do agree with aine that he is now wallowing, but don't listen to anyone that minimizes what happened. This was and is no joke. As aldi said, there are people who use it to get inroads in their career and to protect their job. *Many many many more complaints are legitimate and many more are frivolous misunderstandings. So, I'm not rallying against sexual harassment investigations, they are 100% necessary. I'm saying stay off the road of "it ain't that serious." It really is and can be devastating.
> 
> I'll say it again, do not stay if he will not at least see a marriage counselor. Yes, I know, it may mean it is over, but he needs to deal with this problem. Just from everything you've described you both right fight and hold grudges. Neither of these actions are conducive to married life. Yes, it is okay for you to make a demand, it is a shared marriage not just his. Oh and if h says it is over he gets to leave, don't walk out of your house again.


 @drifting on @phillybeffandswiss Yeah, I totally get that now. At the time I didn't understand all that.


----------



## GusPolinski

I'm starting to get a strong @rrhouse / @LosingHim vibe from this thread.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

drifting on said:


> More then two pronged mattmatt, it's an internal investigation, everything he ever did electronically was scrutinized. OP told him to quit, get another job!!! How is that supportive. That was her best??? Don't worry it will blow over!!! In the meantime we may lose our livelihood, house, cars, but I'm here supporting you. All I'm saying is OP was not perfect, OP needs to own her mistakes, OP is responsible for half of the marriage problems and all of the cheating. I've seen you post some great stuff mattmatt, I mean that sincerely, and her husband is also in the wrong. You need to hold her accountable too, and basically most of your posts are defending her. I reread the two hundred posts last night, OP wasn't remorseful, you can clearly see that in her posts. Did you recall that OP even stated she moved his hand to her breast? OP needs to figure stuff out on her own too, or she will never be remorseful.
> 
> I get that OP feels bad, is sorry, regretful, but that's not remorseful. This marriage probably will end in divorce, and my opinion is that's for the best. Neither will change as the resentment and anger is too deep. OP isn't going to stop running from problems tomorrow, most likely not for several months. But at least stop protecting and help her for her next relationship of marriage. Also, if you think I'm trying to run OP off you are sorely mistaken. I've posted with an open mind considering both the husband and OP, I've said I would leave this thread twice, but I haven't because I'm trying to help OP. Posters who have had an open mind have been having to deal with two others that have tried to run them off. @bibi wrote her best post just above this explaining some of what she went through, and she did it without protecting OP and being condescending about OP's husband.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I bet I know why Camerashy suggested changing jobs. She mistook her husband's rants for communication.

When he raved "I hate my ****ing job!" She, very reasonably, said "Well why not get a new job, then?"

He then replied with ranting aimed at HER about how she didn't understand him, didn't support him, was horrible etc.

I have been through similar s**t with my wife. 

She once spent an hour complaining about one of her friends in very strident and harsh terms.

Eventually I said "Well if she is so horrible why bother to see her again?"

The response was a ranting, raving attack on me! Apparently I wanted her to have no friends, i wanted to keep her isolated from everyone, I was a control freak, my family was horrible and so on.

She suddenly stopped her shouting, smiled at me and said: "What would you like to eat?"

My wife's problem is that she is a High Functioning Asperger's and has problems with social interactions at times.

There is something lacking with the way Camerashy's husband interacts with her and perhaps other people.

Is he ASD? I don't know. But something is wrong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

Of course regarding the allegations there is simple explanation thst we have overlooked.

The woman who made the allegations might have been mentally ill and imagined the emails.

I had a colleague in my last job who would swear that she had sent emails to colleagues when she had not sent them. Caused MANY problems until I realised she had imagined sending them. 

A classic case of her nutty behaviour was when she was talking to me about a conversation we had had about what a client had asked us to do. 

I could not recall any of this until she said: "You remember! We spoke about it yesterday?"

When I said, genuinely puzzled, "But I wasn't here yesterday" She gave a little squeal and said: "Sorry! I just realised that I dreamt all that! It didn't really happen!" 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## camerashy

@MattMatt Nah, no ASD or anything like that


----------



## camerashy

MattMatt said:


> Of course regarding the allegations there is simple explanation thst we have overlooked.
> 
> The woman who made the allegations might have been mentally ill and imagined the emails.
> 
> I had a colleague in my last job who would swear that she had sent emails to colleagues when she had not sent them. Caused MANY problems until I realised she had imagined sending them.
> 
> A classic case of her nutty behaviour was when she was talking to me about a conversation we had had about what a client had asked us to do.
> 
> I could not recall any of this until she said: "You remember! We spoke about it yesterday?"
> 
> When I said, genuinely puzzled, "But I wasn't here yesterday" She gave a little squeal and said: "Sorry! I just realised that I dreamt all that! It didn't really happen!"
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 @MattMatt I do this sometimes and I am not even mentally ill lol


----------



## MattMatt

camerashy said:


> @MattMatt Nah, no ASD or anything like that


My wife had multiple degrees a couple of doctorates and many other qualifications.

Unless you lived with her you would never know she had problems.

I excuse my wife some of her behaviour because if you have problems for example being unable to recognise facial expressions then that does tend to f**k up your social interactions! 

But might this mean your husband has NO excuses for his abusive behaviour'?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Bibi1031

MrsAldi said:


> So yeah the man might just deserve a hug.
> 
> Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


Oh yes, I completely agree, but the timing needs to be right and the husband needs to want or be able to tolerate the invasion of space. That needs to be respected as well. Cues will be sent for this. He is not that obtuse.


----------



## camerashy

Bibi1031 said:


> Oh yes, I completely agree, but the timing needs to be right and the husband needs to want or be able to tolerate the invasion of space. That needs to be respected as well. Cues will be sent for this. He is not that obtuse.


 @Bibi1031 @MrsAldi Oh, he's tried, but it's the opposite way around.


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## TheTruthHurts

Bibi1031 said:


> MrsAldi said:
> 
> 
> 
> So yeah the man might just deserve a hug.
> 
> Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk
> 
> 
> 
> Oh yes, I completely agree, but the timing needs to be right and the husband needs to want or be able to tolerate the invasion of space. That needs to be respected as well. Cues will be sent for this. He is not that obtuse.
Click to expand...

So maybe @camerashy should hide around the corner after he gets out of the shower jump out at him. Or maybe get in the car ahead of him and startle him. Timing is everything for these surprise hugs. Ever watch Ellen? She does this great with her guests. And I guess they do hug too. I guess it's important to get in place ahead of time - like setting a pick in basketball - so he's invading YOUR space. Hmmm what do you think @camerashy?


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## Bibi1031

camerashy said:


> @Bibi1031 @MrsAldi Oh, he's tried, but it's the opposite way around.


How does he respond to you still needing that space?


----------



## LosingHim

GusPolinski said:


> I'm starting to get a strong @rrhouse / @LosingHim vibe from this thread.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree. I've been thinking this thread is very similar. Save a few details it's like we've lived the same life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## camerashy

TheTruthHurts said:


> So maybe @camerashy should hide around the corner after he gets out of the shower jump out at him. Or maybe get in the car ahead of him and startle him. Timing is everything for these surprise hugs. Ever watch Ellen? She does this great with her guests. And I guess they do hug too. I guess it's important to get in place ahead of time - like setting a pick in basketball - so he's invading YOUR space. Hmmm what do you think @camerashy?


 @TheTruthHurts I think that I'm the last person that anyone should ask about hugging. 

Not that my H and I have had a whole bunch of physical intimacy problems in the past, but generally I'm not the type of person who would initiate a hug. Unless I've been away for work or something, and then it's the first thing I do.


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## camerashy

LosingHim said:


> I agree. I've been thinking this thread is very similar. Save a few details it's like we've lived the same life.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 @LosingHim Tell me our life gets better then lol

(I think I need to read your thread/s)


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## camerashy

Bibi1031 said:


> How does he respond to you still needing that space?


 @Bibi1031 Not well, that's why I'm still needing it.

I think if he was trying to be genuinely intimate then I wouldn't have such a problem with it. But because we're both emotionally distant at the moment, and he's just trying to initiate sex, which he now believes that he has every right to demand - it just doesn't fly with me.


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## LosingHim

camerashy said:


> @LosingHim Tell me our life gets better then lol
> 
> (I think I need to read your thread/s)


It gets better.......in ways. I'm only 8 months into disclosure and 4 months into reconciliation. Nothing about this has been easy. For either of us.

My main thread is in the private section "I'm under a microscope...."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt

camerashy said:


> @TheTruthHurts I think that I'm the last person that anyone should ask about hugging.
> 
> Not that my H and I have had a whole bunch of physical intimacy problems in the past, but generally I'm not the type of person who would initiate a hug. Unless I've been away for work or something, and then it's the first thing I do.


My wife is not big on hugs or even touching. She initiates but often it's just a quick poke with her finger as she walks past me as that is all she can cope with at times. 

That's all part of her Asperger's Syndrome.

And she can't stand trees. We were going to buy a house that was perfect for us, but there were too many trees near it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## camerashy

MattMatt said:


> My wife is not big on hugs or even touching. She initiates but often it's just a quick poke with her finger as she walks past me as that is all she can cope with at times.
> 
> That's all part of her Asperger's Syndrome.
> 
> And she can't stand trees. We were going to buy a house that was perfect for us, but there were too many trees near it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 @MattMatt I can understand that. I'm not all that big on touching either. Well not touching, but too much touching. Like I don't mind cuddling up on the sofa watching a movie every now and again, but I'm gonna get up 30 mins later and lie on the other sofa cause that's enough for me. And in my head, I've probably been counting down for the last 10 minutes until I've deemed that an appropriate time frame has passed and I can get up now.

Too much physical contact and I feel like I'm being suffocated.

I don't hug my friends either. But that doesn't mean I love my H or friends any less than anyone else loves theirs. I'd walk on fire for the people I love. But I'm not going to lie and say that it bothers me if I haven't talked to a friend in a month or something. 

I like trees though...love them actually. Birds on the other hand...  lol


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## MattMatt

camerashy said:


> @MattMatt I can understand that. I'm not all that big on touching either. Well not touching, but too much touching. Like I don't mind cuddling up on the sofa watching a movie every now and again, but I'm gonna get up 30 mins later and lie on the other sofa cause that's enough for me. And in my head, I've probably been counting down for the last 10 minutes until I've deemed that an appropriate time frame has passed and I can get up now.
> 
> Too much physical contact and I feel like I'm being suffocated.
> 
> I don't hug my friends either. But that doesn't mean I love my H or friends any less than anyone else loves theirs. I'd walk on fire for the people I love. But I'm not going to lie and say that it bothers me if I haven't talked to a friend in a month or something.
> 
> I like trees though...love them actually. Birds on the other hand...  lol


A fear of trees is a well known trait amongst some types of ASDs.


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## sparrow55

camerashy said:


> @sparrow55 @LosingHim I feel really uncomfortable saying the worse things on here, partly because it would make me look like an idiot for staying, partly because it can be really humiliating stuff - things that attack my character and things I've been though - and partly because I know that there is a real real chance that he could actually read this thread, cause I know he's keeping tabs on me at the moment.
> 
> 
> 
> @Bibi1031 I decided against the snooping because I realized it wouldn't make one bit of difference.
> 
> I don't even know how I'm feeling about him or our M right now...and I've thought about those things. I don't have an "excellent" support system in the UK, but I would be ok.
> 
> I had to leave my last relationship with nothing but my life (thankfully) and my ATM card in my pocket and I was not quite 21 years old at the time. If there's one thing I know how to do well, it's surviving.
> 
> If my M is over, then I will walk away. I don't want anything from him.


Make sure you discuss the issue with your therapist to get a 3rd part view of the situation


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## LosingHim

What has you suddenly not sure if you want your marriage anymore? 

I'm not saying this feeling is wrong, I would go 8 hours of not being sure if I wanted mine to breaking down in a heap crying because I wanted it so bad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt

LosingHim said:


> What has you suddenly not sure if you want your marriage anymore?
> 
> I'm not saying this feeling is wrong, I would go 8 hours of not being sure if I wanted mine to breaking down in a heap crying because I wanted it so bad.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Because she is thinking about the type of person her husband really is.

And some time ago on TAM I read a very important comment:

_"When someone shows you who or what they really are: Believe them."_


----------



## Bibi1031

LosingHim said:


> What has you suddenly not sure if you want your marriage anymore?
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't think it's all that sudden. May be closely related to the cheating incident. Which in turn may be related to the 4-5 months of conflict. Which may also be related to the marriage being 2 years old and the honeymoon stage wore off for both parties. 

May be passive/aggressive behavior on her part. 

May be that I am totally off base here too


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## MrsAldi

@MattMatt @camerashy my first boyfriend was abusive emotionally, financially & then physically. So coming from that, OP husband's anger would send me running & I wouldn't be able to deal with it. 

Cam stated that in her opinion he wasn't abusive & would never hurt her. 

But, I think his anger outbursts are triggers for her possibly? 
Which is why everything could be so unstable at the moment? 

I'm not taking sides here at all, I'm looking at things from all angles. 






Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## MattMatt

Bibi1031 said:


> I don't think it's all that sudden. May be closely related to the cheating incident. Which in turn may be related to the 4-5 months of conflict. Which may also be related to the marriage being 2 years old and the honeymoon stage wore off for both parties.
> 
> May be passive/aggressive behavior on her part.
> 
> May be that I am totally off base here too


May even be his openly aggressive behaviour?

It depends on what his lifestyle was before the marriage.

Off with his Rugby team mates to have several pints of beer after the match, then meeting them and his other mates for a few pints most other evenings, then a table at a curry house every Friday with his cronies from work?

And sports on Saturday and Sunday!

He might be missing that lifestyle and unfairly blaming his wife for stopping him from living his hedonistic pre-marriage lifestyle.

I know of someone who did this. He divorced his wife because of that, but he did make a major financial settlement on her as he felt guilty.


----------



## Maxo

MattMatt said:


> Because she is thinking about the type of person her husband really is.
> 
> And some time ago on TAM I read a very important comment:
> 
> _"When someone shows you who or what they really are: Believe them."_


That was Maya,quoting me. I was referring to therapists at the time.


----------



## Maxo

MattMatt said:


> I bet I know why Camerashy suggested changing jobs. She mistook her husband's rants for communication.
> 
> When he raved "I hate my ****ing job!" She, very reasonably, said "Well why not get a new job, then?"
> 
> He then replied with ranting aimed at HER about how she didn't understand him, didn't support him, was horrible etc.
> 
> I have been through similar s**t with my wife.
> 
> She once spent an hour complaining about one of her friends in very strident and harsh terms.
> 
> Eventually I said "Well if she is so horrible why bother to see her again?"
> 
> The response was a ranting, raving attack on me! Apparently I wanted her to have no friends, i wanted to keep her isolated from everyone, I was a control freak, my family was horrible and so on.
> 
> She suddenly stopped her shouting, smiled at me and said: "What would you like to eat?"
> 
> My wife's problem is that she is a High Functioning Asperger's and has problems with social interactions at times.
> 
> There is something lacking with the way Camerashy's husband interacts with her and perhaps other people.
> 
> Is he ASD? I don't know. But something is wrong.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wait,I missed another quote from her husband?


----------



## Maxo

MattMatt said:


> May even be his openly aggressive behaviour?
> 
> It depends on what his lifestyle was before the marriage.
> 
> Off with his Rugby team mates to have several pints of beer after the match, then meeting them and his other mates for a few pints most other evenings, then a table at a curry house every Friday with his cronies from work?
> 
> And sports on Saturday and Sunday!
> 
> He might be missing that lifestyle and unfairly blaming his wife for stopping him from living his hedonistic pre-marriage lifestyle.
> 
> I know of someone who did this. He divorced his wife because of that, but he did make a major financial settlement on her as he felt guilty.


Exactly. I think the Rugby is at the bottom of this. Clearly he misses it and the curry,thus the abuse.
This is a well known syndrome: Rug-Curry Withdrawal Syndrome.
Nice spot,Matt.


----------



## Maxo

camerashy said:


> @MattMatt I do this sometimes and I am not even mentally ill lol


Are you sure?


----------



## Maxo

MattMatt said:


> My wife is not big on hugs or even touching. She initiates but often it's just a quick poke with her finger as she walks past me as that is all she can cope with at times.
> 
> That's all part of her Asperger's Syndrome.
> 
> And she can't stand trees. We were going to buy a house that was perfect for us, but there were too many trees near it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No tree hugging,I take it?


----------



## Bibi1031

Maxo said:


> No tree hugging,I take it?


How exactly are your Latest posts relevant to OP issues? You simply pester posters to derail this thread?


WHY???


----------



## camerashy

LosingHim said:


> What has you suddenly not sure if you want your marriage anymore?
> 
> I'm not saying this feeling is wrong, I would go 8 hours of not being sure if I wanted mine to breaking down in a heap crying because I wanted it so bad.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 @LosingHim Mostly because I'm miserable. 



MattMatt said:


> May even be his openly aggressive behaviour?
> 
> It depends on what his lifestyle was before the marriage.
> 
> Off with his Rugby team mates to have several pints of beer after the match, then meeting them and his other mates for a few pints most other evenings, then a table at a curry house every Friday with his cronies from work?
> 
> And sports on Saturday and Sunday!
> 
> He might be missing that lifestyle and unfairly blaming his wife for stopping him from living his hedonistic pre-marriage lifestyle.
> 
> I know of someone who did this. He divorced his wife because of that, but he did make a major financial settlement on her as he felt guilty.





Maxo said:


> Exactly. I think the Rugby is at the bottom of this. Clearly he misses it and the curry,thus the abuse.
> This is a well known syndrome: Rug-Curry Withdrawal Syndrome.
> Nice spot,Matt.


 @MattMatt @Maxo 

Actually... When I decided against getting citizenship here, rugby was one of the things on my con list (yes, there was an actual list). Kiwi's don't take rugby lightly...and they sure don't cheer England on in the RWC... All Blacks all the way >

And my H still does those things. Sometimes I go with him. He and his friends don't like my smart mouth when the AB's kick their asses though.

And it's not always curry, sometimes it's a pie and chips


----------



## camerashy

Maxo said:


> Are you sure?


 @Maxo Fair point, Maxo. Fair point.


----------



## MattMatt

Bibi1031 said:


> How exactly are your Latest posts relevant to OP issues? You simply pester posters to derail this thread?
> 
> 
> WHY???


Yes. I was wondering thst myself. 

I am sure there is a perfectly logical explanation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Leonor

This is a very, very bad match and both bring the worst out of each other. Filing for divorce would be probably the best.

Husband is verbally abusive and needs to go to a shrink to find a copy mechanism that allows him let off steam without name calling and belittling his partner.

And OP seems emotionally unavailable and distant. Unless you have dealt with someone that unavailable and distant, you cannot know how neglect feels like. The whole "Do not cuddle longer than 10 minutes with me", "Do not kiss me in public" and "If you are accused of sexual harrassment, why don't you look for another job" stuff comes across as very cold, negligent and loveless to me. There are people who might be able to deal with it and are likely to downplay this - I personally had to deal with it before and I couldn't do it, it brought out the worst in me. I don't care from what a place it comes (e.g. maybe that is just the way the person is and deep down the person is very caring) - it's just not for me and it makes me feel like I'm not worthy of love, warmth and attention, and then I try to garner the missing attention by acting petulant and pushing buttons to get at least some form of reation. Not good, not healthy. Maybe OP's husband is the same.


----------



## MattMatt

Leonor said:


> This is a very, very bad match and both bring the worst out of each other. Filing for divorce would be probably the best.
> 
> Husband is verbally abusive and needs to go to a shrink to find a copy mechanism that allows him let off steam without name calling and belittling his partner.
> 
> And OP seems emotionally unavailable and distant. Unless you have dealt with someone that unavailable and distant, you cannot know how neglect feels like. The whole "Do not cuddle longer than 10 minutes with me", "Do not kiss me in public" and "If you are accused of sexual harrassment, why don't you look for another job" stuff comes across as very cold, negligent and loveless to me. There are people who might be able to deal with it and are likely to downplay this - I personally had to deal with it before and I couldn't do it, it brought out the worst in me. I don't care from what a place it comes (e.g. maybe that is just the way the person is and deep down the person is very caring) - it's just not for me and it makes me feel like I'm not worthy of love, warmth and attention, and then I try to garner the missing attention by acting petulant and pushing buttons to get at least some form of reation. Not good, not healthy. Maybe OP's husband is the same.


You can't marry a person who was the subject of abuse and expect a normal relationship all the time. It's not possible.

The problem is that the husband does not believe in counselling or the like.

So until such time as he agrees to counselling he is, quite literally, beyond help.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

@camerashy, good job in not letting him guilt you into using you for sex. That is manipulation and another sign of abuse. 

As long as he stays a hypocrite, there is no point in talking or working anything out with him. You are suppose to let go of the anger and pain of his abuse and not hold it against him. When he hurts you, you are suppose to toughen up, you are suppose to ignore his actions. When he is hurt by you, you are suppose to cater to his feelings.

Don't forget, he was abusive prior to meeting you. He chooses whom he wants to be abusive towards as he will not behave that way towards friends, clients, just family. Are either his parents abusive or both as you posted he grew up with verbal abuse, and tearing another down was more common.

You have a right not to have sex because he demands it. You have the right not to put up with abuse. I am sure you know this, but the more control you give him, the more likely he will continue using guilt to control you. It is likely to escalate. Plus, when he tries to use your insecurities against you, or guilts you into actions that are harmful towards your esteem and well-being, walk away and disengage. He thinks he has a right to use you and remember no, he does not.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

MattMatt said:


> Leonor said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is a very, very bad match and both bring the worst out of each other. Filing for divorce would be probably the best.
> 
> Husband is verbally abusive and needs to go to a shrink to find a copy mechanism that allows him let off steam without name calling and belittling his partner.
> 
> And OP seems emotionally unavailable and distant. Unless you have dealt with someone that unavailable and distant, you cannot know how neglect feels like. The whole "Do not cuddle longer than 10 minutes with me", "Do not kiss me in public" and "If you are accused of sexual harrassment, why don't you look for another job" stuff comes across as very cold, negligent and loveless to me. There are people who might be able to deal with it and are likely to downplay this - I personally had to deal with it before and I couldn't do it, it brought out the worst in me. I don't care from what a place it comes (e.g. maybe that is just the way the person is and deep down the person is very caring) - it's just not for me and it makes me feel like I'm not worthy of love, warmth and attention, and then I try to garner the missing attention by acting petulant and pushing buttons to get at least some form of reation. Not good, not healthy. Maybe OP's husband is the same.
> 
> 
> 
> You can't marry a person who was the subject of abuse and expect a normal relationship all the time. It's not possible.
> 
> The problem is that the husband does not believe in counselling or the like.
> 
> So until such time as he agrees to counselling he is, quite literally, beyond help.
Click to expand...

Except OP is the one causing the problem. She's in IC and I don't see a positive result so she really must have been messed up. At TAM the mantra is the BS gets a pass on their horrible behavior and the WS has to fully own their sh1t that bike the camels back. OP is the WS here and her issues must be addressed. Saying H gas to accept his marriage has to be fvcked up just because of her past is a huge cop out and untrue. Just sayin'


----------



## michzz

TheTruthHurts said:


> At TAM the mantra is the* BS gets a pass on their horrible behavior and the WS has to fully own their sh1t *that bike the camels back.


So not true!

Everyone has to own their sh!t.

However, a WS has a full load for inflicting their behavior on their spouse.

in my case, my ex infected me with HPV many years ago. And now i have throat cancer. she contracted HPV while cheating on me.

How does that balance out to her being annoyed if I didn't wash the dishes or take the trash out?

If i had hit her or cheated in turn?

I should not have been given the same crap a cheating spouse gets.

I didn't do anything near to scale to what I endured.


----------



## MattMatt

TheTruthHurts said:


> Except OP is the one causing the problem. She's in IC and I don't see a positive result so she really must have been messed up. At TAM the mantra is the BS gets a pass on their horrible behavior and the WS has to fully own their sh1t that bike the camels back. OP is the WS here and her issues must be addressed. Saying H gas to accept his marriage has to be fvcked up just because of her past is a huge cop out and untrue. Just sayin'


So SHE made her husband into an abusive control freak before the "affair" did she?

Pray tell, exactly how did she do that?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

TheTruthHurts said:


> Except OP is the one causing the problem. She's in IC and I don't see a positive result so she really must have been messed up. At TAM the mantra is the BS gets a pass on their horrible behavior and the WS has to fully own their sh1t that bike the camels back. OP is the WS here and her issues must be addressed. Saying H gas to accept his marriage has to be fvcked up just because of her past is a huge cop out and untrue. Just sayin'


So the BS gets a free pass for ALL their bad behaviour?

No. That’s not what happens on TAM. We accept OUR bad behaviour as well as the bad behaviour of our WS. Or how could anyone ever get beyond anything??

If your spouse is messed up you either accept this, work with it or leave.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Bibi1031

TheTruthHurts said:


> Except OP is the one causing the problem. *She's in IC and I don't see a positive result so she really must have been messed up.* At TAM the mantra is the BS gets a pass on their horrible behavior and the WS has to fully own their sh1t that bike the camels back. OP is the WS here and her issues must be addressed. Saying H gas to accept his marriage has to be fvcked up just because of her past is a huge cop out and untrue. Just sayin'


:wtf:

Her ailments are not a common cold that gets better after a couple of days you know.:surprise:

Emotional trauma takes YEARS to get resolved. Results take sometimes many months, and yes, even several years to see positive change that will last a lifetime. That is the payback of going for so long to counseling. Your change will probably be for a lifetime because you will be completely healed emotionally. Getting cured once doesn't guarantee that you won't need therapy again in the future. Life is difficult for many of us. For some folks, seeing a therapist is a lifelong process.

I, for one, am very glad she is back to IC. She realizes she needs her therapist's help again. She knows him well and he is a very good match for her. Finding a good match is in and of itself sometimes very hard.


*"You can't marry a person who was the subject of abuse and expect a normal relationship all the time. It's not possible." (thanks @MattMatt for your gold nuggets on this quote)*


^^This^^^^ rinse and repeat as many times as needed!


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Bibi1031 said:


> TheTruthHurts said:
> 
> 
> 
> Except OP is the one causing the problem. *She's in IC and I don't see a positive result so she really must have been messed up.* At TAM the mantra is the BS gets a pass on their horrible behavior and the WS has to fully own their sh1t that bike the camels back. OP is the WS here and her issues must be addressed. Saying H gas to accept his marriage has to be fvcked up just because of her past is a huge cop out and untrue. Just sayin'
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Her ailments are not a common cold that gets better after a couple of days you know.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Emotional trauma takes YEARS to get resolved. Results take sometimes many months, and yes, even several years to see positive change that will last a lifetime. That is the payback of going for so long to counseling. Your change will probably be for a lifetime because you will be completely healed emotionally. Getting cured once doesn't guarantee that you won't need therapy again in the future. Life is difficult for many of us. For some folks, seeing a therapist is a lifelong process.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I, for one, am very glad she is back to IC. She realizes she needs her therapist's help again. She knows him well and he is a very good match for her. Finding a good match is in and of itself sometimes very hard.
> 
> 
> *"You can't marry a person who was the subject of abuse and expect a normal relationship all the time. It's not possible." (thanks @MattMatt for your gold nuggets on this quote)*
> 
> 
> ^^This^^^^ rinse and repeat as many times as needed!
Click to expand...

It doesn't mean you get to blame the marriage problems on the distract H like &MattMatt is. Of course you can but it's simple blame shifting


----------



## LosingHim

OK. If you’re miserable…then end it. I realize it’s not that cut and dry, leaving someone you love(d) isn’t an easy thing. And I am generally not one who pushes divorce. But if you are truly miserable, then by all means, go! Be free, be happy. 

You still cheated and that’s an issue. I would get to the root of that before you start dating again, to ensure that you don’t DO it again. 

But other than that, why not just split amicably? Apologize for cheating, own the wrong that you did as far as that is concerned and you both move on in your life.


----------



## MattMatt

TheTruthHurts said:


> It doesn't mean you get to blame the marriage problems on the distract H like &MattMatt is. Of course you can but it's simple blame shifting


So, by your logic if a spouse spends -say- four years beating the living snot out of their Honey, if their Honey has some much as a grope and a fumble with another person, then they, the BS, gets a Golden Pass on all of the beatings?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

MattMatt said:


> So, by your logic if a spouse spends -say- four years beating the living snot out of their Honey, if their Honey has some much as a grope and a fumble with another person, then they, the BS, gets a Golden Pass on all of the beatings?


It's always sad an ironic when you trigger. You tell people to not make these terrible leaps in logic, but when you trigger you jump right into the same hyperbole ship. He said no such thing concerning physical abuse. This is you trying to shutdown his comment, with a red herring based argument.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

MattMatt said:


> TheTruthHurts said:
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't mean you get to blame the marriage problems on the distract H like &MattMatt is. Of course you can but it's simple blame shifting
> 
> 
> 
> So, by your logic if a spouse spends -say- four years beating the living snot out of their Honey, if their Honey has some much as a grope and a fumble with another person, then they, the BS, gets a Golden Pass on all of the beatings?
Click to expand...

I don't know why you're projecting so much if your personal sh1t onto this woman's real life problems. You want her to cut and run - YEAH WE GET IT - but she is vacillating and I haven't heard HER decide her H is all this crap you're accusing of him being. In fact she has subtly said the opposite.

It might do you some good to show the OP the respect she warrants to help her work within the marriage she CURRENTLY HAS.

I've got no skin in the game. I have a good marriage. But I read these posts objectively and I focus on the poster who will go into another relationship if this one fails and could wind up in the same place. Personally I think that would suck. So I offer objective thoughts based on what I read the poster say and if I am off base I'm okay with that. I'd rather be wrong in pointing out a potentially huge issue than rug sweep it based on a prior trauma I might have faced - like you're doing @MattMatt

In this case, the OP will end up in the same place time and time again if she's unable to accept her contribution to this. You might have even picked H because he was damaged too. At times you seem to get it @camerashy then you back off when the cavelry comes to save you from the brutish H.

Good luck in your continued IC - I really hope you can learn to accept someone in your life at some point.


----------



## MattMatt

phillybeffandswiss said:


> It's always sad an ironic when you trigger. You tell people to not make these terrible leaps in logic, but when you trigger you jump right into the same hyperbole ship. He said no such thing concerning physical abuse. This is you trying to shutdown his comment, with a red herring based argument.


 @TheTruthHurts actually said


> *At TAM the mantra is the BS gets a pass on their horrible behavior*


Which is utter nonsense. There is no such "mantra" at TAM. And I hope there never will be.

Everyone WS, BS, is responsible for what they bring to a relationship.

Did I use an extreme example? Yes, I did. But only to point out the absurd notion that on TAM a BS gets a pass on their bad behaviour.


----------



## MattMatt

TheTruthHurts said:


> *I don't know why you're projecting so much if your personal sh1t onto this woman's real life problems*. You want her to cut and run - YEAH WE GET IT - but she is vacillating and I haven't heard HER decide her H is all this crap you're accusing of him being. In fact she has subtly said the opposite.
> 
> It might do you some good to show the OP the respect she warrants to help her work within the marriage she CURRENTLY HAS.
> 
> I've got no skin in the game. I have a good marriage. But I read these posts objectively and I focus on the poster who will go into another relationship if this one fails and could wind up in the same place. Personally I think that would suck. So I offer objective thoughts based on what I read the poster say and if I am off base I'm okay with that. I'd rather be wrong in pointing out a potentially huge issue than rug sweep it based on a prior trauma I might have faced - like you're doing @MattMatt
> 
> In this case, the OP will end up in the same place time and time again if she's unable to accept her contribution to this. You might have even picked H because he was damaged too. At times you seem to get it @camerashy then you back off when the cavelry comes to save you from the brutish H.
> 
> Good luck in your continued IC - I really hope you can learn to accept someone in your life at some point.


I am not, I am pointing out that your notion that the BS can do whatever they like, merely because they are a BS is flawed. And might actually prove to be harmful should a BS on TAM take up your notion that



> At TAM the mantra is the BS gets a pass on their horrible behavior


The husband needs counselling, too. But he doesn't think it works.


----------



## Maxo

MattMatt said:


> I am not, I am pointing out that your notion that the BS can do whatever they like,merely because they are a BS is flawed. And might actually prove to be harmful should a BS on TAM take up your notion that
> 
> 
> 
> The husband needs counselling, too. But he doesn't think it works.


Maybe he is afraid He will run into one that makes up fake conversations or blames abuse on Rugby and curry or who screams abusive even before allegations of berating and name calling are made:|


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## MattMatt

Maxo said:


> Maybe he is afraid He will run into one that makes up fake conversations or blames abuse on Rugby and curry or who screams abusive even before allegations of berating and name calling are made:|


What you need to do is to think: "Was that post helpful to Camerashy?" :scratchhead:


----------



## TheTruthHurts

MattMatt said:


> Maxo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe he is afraid He will run into one that makes up fake conversations or blames abuse on Rugby and curry or who screams abusive even before allegations of berating and name calling are made
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What you need to do is to think: "Was that post helpful to Camerashy?"
Click to expand...


Brrrhahahaha really @MattMatt? Dude you're normally a pretty lucid guy but I've seen a few posts lately that have me a little concerned. Seriously. This back and forth isn't helpful. I've already said clearly H needs help and his behavior isn't acceptable but he's not here and @camerashy has some real issues and some difficulties with empathy due to her past. Her H being so melodramatic and hurt and outraged is its own problem, but it's allowing @camerashy to avoid some of the intimacy issues she has. I'd love to see her delve into that more - maybe we can redirect this thread toward how she sees things and reacts to things. I really think the TAM forces can help her see herself better and help her respond better without the negativity she feels toward herself.


----------



## MattMatt

TheTruthHurts said:


> Brrrhahahaha really @MattMatt? Dude you're normally a pretty lucid guy but I've seen a few posts lately that have me a little concerned. Seriously. This back and forth isn't helpful. I've already said clearly H needs help and his behavior isn't acceptable but he's not here and @camerashy has some real issues and some difficulties with empathy due to her past. Her H being so melodramatic and hurt and outraged is its own problem, but it's allowing @camerashy to avoid some of the intimacy issues she has. I'd love to see her delve into that more - maybe we can redirect this thread toward how she sees things and reacts to things. I really think the TAM forces can help her see herself better and help her respond better without the negativity she feels toward herself.


There's a problem. If Camerashy does attend therapy, how will this work in the relationship when her husband has dismissed therapy as invalid?


----------



## Celes

OP, what you did was 100% wrong and 100% on you. But your H sounds like a d-bag. Just because he's a lot less of a d-bag than your ex does not mean he's good for you. There is no excuse for name calling or yelling in a marriage. He is abusive and manipulative. So every time things go south in the marriage, one of you will need to leave for a few weeks? That's unacceptable. 

Have you ever had a healthy relationship? It sounds like you went from terrible to just bad. Do you feel like you don't deserve better than this? Or do you just not know what a healthy relationship is like to compare it to?


----------



## MattMatt

Celes said:


> OP, what you did was 100% wrong and 100% on you. But your H sounds like a d-bag. Just because he's a lot less of a d-bag than your ex does not mean he's good for you. There is no excuse for name calling or yelling in a marriage. He is abusive and manipulative. So every time things go south in the marriage, one of you will need to leave for a few weeks? That's unacceptable.
> 
> Have you ever had a healthy relationship? It sounds like you went from terrible to just bad. Do you feel like you don't deserve better than this? Or do you just not know what a healthy relationship is like to compare it to?


Damn. I just realised that in my last job I shared an office with a man very similar to Camerashy's husband.

He would phone her up from the office and bully and berate her. So God knows what he was like at home.

She puts up with his s**t because her first husband used to beat her up very badly, so verbal slights, rudeness and displays of churlish behaviour are nowhere near as bad as what her first husband did to her. 

It's not a healthy type of relationship.


----------



## MattMatt

Maxo said:


> You have,repeatedly,given irresponsible ,strange advice,IMO.


So that's your excuse for making weird, disruptive posts and comments In multiple threads and making nasty attacks on other TAM members?

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dycedarg

There's some serious bitterness in this thread.

The thread starter opened up by admitting she has a third party and literally the first response is "HE must be cheating!"

I think this forum is very useful. I think there are tools provided here that are of great use. But some of you spend way too much time here.


----------



## MattMatt

Dycedarg said:


> There's some serious bitterness in this thread.
> 
> The thread starter opened up by admitting she has a third party and literally the first response is "HE must be cheating!"
> 
> I think this forum is very useful. I think there are tools provided here that are of great use. But some of you spend way too much time here.


He asked for a separation and acted like a jerk. Before she cheated.

They desperately need couple's counselling and individual counselling for the two of them.

But he thinks counselling is a waste of time.

Which, IMO, is a stumbling block for the continuation of their marriage in any meaningful sense of the word.


----------



## MattMatt

Dycedarg said:


> There's some serious bitterness in this thread.
> 
> The thread starter opened up by admitting she has a third party and literally the first response is "HE must be cheating!"
> 
> I think this forum is very useful. I think there are tools provided here that are of great use. *But some of you spend way too much time here.*


In your opinion.


----------



## Maxo

MattMatt said:


> He asked for a separation and acted like a jerk. Before she cheated.
> 
> They desperately need couple's counselling and individual counselling for the two of them.
> 
> But he thinks counselling is a waste of time.
> 
> Which, IMO, is a stumbling block for the continuation of their marriage in any meaningful sense of the word.


Too much projection from you, IMO. You are a two time cheater, right?


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## MrsAldi

Please stop, this is in no way shape or form helping the poster with her marriage. 


Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## MattMatt

Maxo said:


> Too much projection from you, IMO. You are a two time cheater, right?


No. I am most definitely *Not* a two time cheater.

And you accuse *me* of making stuff up?


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## michzz

So not on topic anymore.


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## sparrow55

Mods!!Cleanup time
@EleGirl


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## phillybeffandswiss

LOL. I reported this when it first got bad, didn't think it could worse. Then I remembered, I am posting on TAM. When we bicker we get personal and go all out. Sometimes, it is highly disgraceful. Some of us are on polar opposite sides, but somehow manage to help the OP. Let's get back to that shall we?


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## MattMatt

phillybeffandswiss said:


> LOL. I reported this when it first got bad, didn't think it could worse. Then I remembered, I am posting on TAM. When we bicker we get personal and go all out. Sometimes, it is highly disgraceful. Some of us are on polar opposite sides, but somehow manage to help the OP. Let's get back to that shall we?


:iagree:

I think it would be great if we could help both the husband *and* wife, here.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Only if he showed up. If he is abusive, as some suggest, then he definitely doesn't need to be on TAM per her invite.


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## MattMatt

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Only if he showed up. If he is abusive, as some suggest, then he definitely doesn't need to be on TAM per her invite.


I know, I know. That's a toughie.

I suppose he might not be deliberately abusive? Could he just be ridiculously insensitive and unaware of the damage he is causing to his wife and marriage?


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## Maxo

MattMatt said:


> I know, I know. That's a toughie.
> 
> I suppose he might not be deliberately abusive? Could he just be ridiculously insensitive and unaware of the damage he is causing to his wife and marriage?


He may not be as described. Remember: cognitive dissonance.


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## EleGirl

*There is a huge thread jack here with personal attacks. From here on out, only post to give support and help directly to the OP.

Anyone who continues the thread jack will be banned.

Speaking as a moderator.*


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## MattMatt

Camerashy this might be a long shot but does your husband have a religious figure thst he trusts? 

If so could you and he make an appointment with him or her to talk your issues through?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## camerashy

MattMatt said:


> Camerashy this might be a long shot but does your husband have a religious figure thst he trusts?
> 
> If so could you and he make an appointment with him or her to talk your issues through?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 @MattMatt No, neither of us are religious. 

I think I am just going to shut this thread down. I don't want anyone getting banned on my account. And things have just gone from bad to sh1t at home in the last couple days and the storm clouds of depression are rolling in.


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## blahfridge

Camerashy, please reconsider ending this thread. My heart jumped for you over your "storm clouds of depression" comment as I sensed from your last several posts that you were sinking. People often mistake depression for emotional distance because both can come across as flatness. 

If this is something you have always struggled with, it isn't surprising that it would surface now given what is going on in your life. And it could very well have contributed to your allowing that kiss to happen. People who are depressed will sometimes do anything to try to make themselves feel better. I know because I've been there. This is not to excuse anything, but it's another reason for you to continue to seek serious help. 

Look after yourself right now, it doesn't sound like your H is willing to help save the marriage anyhow, and please continue to post as you work through this. My best to you.


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## camerashy

@blahfridge Thank you :smile2:


----------



## Be smart

I only posted once in this thread and I think I made a good decision. It really makes me sad to see people fighting with each other,especially a long time members who give a good advice to others including me. You are better then that,trust me. I still love you in some way . 

Reading her posts I dont know if her Husband is Cheating or not but I am sure she is emotionally abused from him. This is one of the problems she should talk with him and if he still acts the same then she better think about Divorce because this is not a way you should live your life. I know I couldnt live like this.

Second problem-her actions with other man. You are responsible for them my Lady and making excuses is not good. If you want to be a better person,wife or future mother then think about it. 

Third- so little intimacy and communication issues from both sides. I blame both of you for this one. You cant change him or force him to change. If he really loves you then he will do the right thing. Same goes for you.

This is from my personal life and maybe it is not the best way to live your life so dont take me serious. After all I am not married,yet 
If I go out with my Lady or some of our Friends I want to hold her hand and kiss her. I will not grab her butt because it is disrespectful. I would be really sad if she refuses this to me or calls me names or tells me I am possesive or control freak. In other hand she always finds a way to sit on my lap. I dont mind really.This makes me happy. Intimacy or whatever you call it is not only for bedroom. It is little touches here and there,nice gesture,showing her she means a lot to me other then sex.

You can make your Marriage really good but remember it takes two. You cant do anything by yourself my Lady.

Stay strong.


----------



## aine

Camera shy, don't give up on the Tam'ers yet! Do you have any close friends you can confide in about how you feel now. Maybe you need a short break to get away from home, work and marriage just to clear your head and think a bit.


----------



## MattMatt

camerashy said:


> @MattMatt No, neither of us are religious.
> 
> I think I am just going to shut this thread down. I don't want anyone getting banned on my account. And things have just gone from bad to sh1t at home in the last couple days and the storm clouds of depression are rolling in.


Don't worry. And don't let anyone force you to close your thread. I will pm you. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

@camerashy, don't feel like you have to own the behavior of a stranger on the internet. 

You are here to get advice. Solicit it, and take the advice that seems to make the most sense.

Others will do what they do. And please understand, yours is far from the only threat in which this happens.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## phillybeffandswiss

You've been respectful as have many others, minus the exaggerations and TAM mantra insults, as well as most veteran posters. We are all adults and if you notice many posters are able to disagree and not insult each other or get angry. If they do get banned, they earned it all on their own. You asking for help and OTHER people getting personal and not acting right is not your fault. There is no rule that says differing opinions are not okay, the rules do apply to name calling and blatant disrespect.


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## sparrow55

What is the plan now ?


----------



## Bibi1031

camerashy said:


> @MattMatt
> 
> I think I am just going to shut this thread down. *I don't want anyone getting banned on my account.* And things have just gone from bad to sh1t at home in the last couple days and the storm clouds of depression are rolling in.


Please don't feel guilty because some of us don't follow the forum rules. That's not on you. We are all adults and we know better. 

I'm glad @EleGirl has come to put us in our place. It will get much better now. You need help, and I don't mean us or your therapist.

You may need meds Camerashy. Please place a visit with your doctor and let him know the situation. He will be able to help you. 

Keep reading and posting. You are very strong. You will get through this regardless of what the future holds in regards to your relationship. You may not feel your strength, but I surely can see it.

You are going through a very hard time in your life, and yet you take the time to read other posters and try to help them out. That takes strength!


----------



## TheTruthHurts

@camerashy it would be helpful if you would tell us in your own words 1) if your H is a good husband and partner 2) if you love him and you believe he loves you and 3) if you believe he is abusive to you - and if so, how often and what context?

Let's end the speculation and back and forth - let's hear YOUR judgements about this.

I'm sorry to ask since I know you've said a variety of things throughout this thread, but that has been lost with all the assumptions, confusion with other threads, etc.

If you indulge us with this we can hit the reset button on this and talk about things in a way that resonates with your view of things.


----------



## camerashy

Bibi1031 said:


> Please don't feel guilty because some of us don't follow the forum rules. That's not on you. We are all adults and we know better.
> 
> I'm glad @EleGirl has come to put us in our place. It will get much better now. You need help, and I don't mean us or your therapist.
> 
> You may need meds Camerashy. Please place a visit with your doctor and let him know the situation. He will be able to help you.
> 
> Keep reading and posting. You are very strong. You will get through this regardless of what the future holds in regards to your relationship. You may not feel your strength, but I surely can see it.
> 
> You are going through a very hard time in your life, and yet you take the time to read other posters and try to help them out. That takes strength!


 @Bibi1031 Thanks Bibi. And I'm fine, honestly. I'm good at picking myself up when I have to. It's just been one long ass, incredibly hard week. And the last couple days, in particular, have just been ****. A lot of new developments.



TheTruthHurts said:


> @camerashy it would be helpful if you would tell us in your own words 1) if your H is a good husband and partner 2) if you love him and you believe he loves you and 3) if you believe he is abusive to you - and if so, how often and what context?
> 
> Let's end the speculation and back and forth - let's hear YOUR judgements about this.
> 
> I'm sorry to ask since I know you've said a variety of things throughout this thread, but that has been lost with all the assumptions, confusion with other threads, etc.
> 
> If you indulge us with this we can hit the reset button on this and talk about things in a way that resonates with your view of things.


 @TheTruthHurts That's in part, my fault. I've been really careful with my word choice. I didn't want to make my H out to be this huge monster (he isn't) and I also didn't want people to think I was trying to make excuses for what I did.

Believe me, I feel absolutely crap for what I've done. I've made a bad situation worse, and despite the way I'm feeling right now towards my H, hurt someone I care about. 

I've done a lot of dodging when it comes to labeling my H abusive. I guess, for me it's hard to reconcile the fact that certain patterns have been present from the beginning, but because they didn't happen very often, I ignored them. I do try to see the best in people, and I think that being abusive is a choice. The past few weeks, my H hasn't chosen very wisely. He has anger management issues and can be very manipulative. Some people have commented that name calling, negative/hurtful insults is typical following a cheating incident, but in my opinion, my H has crossed the line on several occasions. 

As for love? Geez, I don't even know anymore. And emotionally, I'm all over the place. I'm so tired. 



sparrow55 said:


> What is the plan now ?


No idea @sparrow55 there's been so much going on in the past few days, more things to get my head around, more people involved...it's just...real **** at the moment.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

@camerashy then please just put it away for a few weeks. You're emotionally exhausted and are in no position to really clearly see the past or make a decision about the future.

Maybe accept that H is a bit overwhelmed and also emotionally exhausted.

When I got my cancer diagnosis I spiraled slowly and it took a few years to get through the loss and grief. I said horrible things I didn't mean but my W was a trooper and let it run off her back like water. Did it hurt her? Yes absolutely. But I was not thinking clearly.

We are awesome now that I came through the grief. I had tried my best to push her away because I didn't want her to rely on me because I knew I wasn't going to be there for her. I wanted her to separate emotionally so she could thrive and survive. But I'm alive and I'm past that and enjoying life now. She probably has scars too but I can't help that. So we move forward.

Anyway I get the stress of uncertainty and realizing your world is shaken or gone. Maybe a little time will restore both of your perspectives.

Btw to be clear - if my W had come here the TAM gang would have labeled me abusive and advised she leave. The truth is I needed to grieve my loss as did she. Grief is a messy business but allows you to come out the other side healthier. If you haven't grieved your loss then you haven't let the past go.


----------



## camerashy

@TheTruthHurts

Such a touching story. I'm so happy for you and your W, and that you were able to make it through together. When it comes to things like cancer, everybody needs someone on their side and I'm so glad that your W is that person for you. 

I'm trying to see past this situation with my H, but at the moment, I just can't see it. It just continues escalating and I just... I just wonder if we've passed the point of no return.


----------



## Be smart

You should not close your thread my Lady. Only cowards do that. No matter what we say or write it takes a lot courage to come here and admit your own mistakes. 

If you feel tired you can take some time off from TAM,just to clear your head. You can also read other threads,belive me this will help you. 

Yesterday one Lady asked to talk privately with some of the members. In some way this could be wrong,but I wrote her about some nice people here like bibi,aine,ei,turnera,satya,sapientia,alte dame. I belive they will listen to you and help you if you contact them. Trying to lock yourself and not talking about problems is not going to help you. You fall into depresion and all your hard work is wasted. 

Stay strong.


----------



## LosingHim

It would be helpful to know in what ways this week has been sh*t. 

You've become very vague with details and that makes it hard for people to help without assuming.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## camerashy

LosingHim said:


> It would be helpful to know in what ways this week has been sh*t.
> 
> You've become very vague with details and that makes it hard for people to help without assuming.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 @LosingHim Ok...well since I've been home, apart from the one talk we've had there has been no progress. A few days ago, we had a huge argument where he started criticizing everything about me -- to the point where I'm crying hysterically and thinking I'm losing my mind. And then not even 30 minutes after he had gone silent again, he was acting like nothing at all had happened and he starts trying to touch me and pestering me for sex. I said no effing way, he stormed off.

Then, I met with my BIL and his girlfriend for lunch (they know what's happened) and I ended up having a big ugly cry face to them too and they were so angry at my H for how he is behaving. They were pretty much asking what the heck I was doing, I should leave him etc. I know my BIL talked to my H about it, cause that night he was exceptionally snarky.

He's told basically everyone I know that I slept with some random dude in a bar and he's trying to select which jobs I take (local ones), even though some of them are booking well in advance.

I've just got no energy left for this. I'm not eating or sleeping properly and I'm constantly tired, even though it's more mental and emotional exhaustion than anything. I think I want to leave him. I didn't want to accept failure when we haven't even been married for 2 years yet...but I'm at that point where I'm wiping myself out here. But he's making that impossible by blocking my work.


----------



## camerashy

He keeps insinuating that I am not putting any effort into repairing our M and that I just want to be done with him...and I'm so exhausted right now that I think he's right. He thinks I should be falling over myself trying to repair this, but I can't.


----------



## Leonor

camerashy said:


> He keeps insinuating that I am not putting any effort into repairing our M and that I just want to be done with him...and I'm so exhausted right now that I think he's right. He thinks I should be falling over myself trying to repair this, but I can't.


That's how I am reading him as well from what you have written. I do not condone his abuse, but I think underneath it all there is still some deep insecurity and hurt and he is testing you but does not see that all he has accomplished is that he has driven you away.

Do you have a place where you can stay? Despite understanding his hurt, I advise you to stop him from ruinning your career prospects. You came back to him but all you've experienced since then is abuse. If he wants to fight for this marriage, it's his turn to fight for the marriage and make suggestions. Leave his home. The situation as it is is no good.


----------



## MrsAldi

@camerashy I'm sincerely sorry for what's happening to you right now. 

He's behaving worse than a toddler in a tantrum! 
I think you should put your happiness first now & look after yourself better. 

Sometimes marriages just don't work out & he's making you guys incompatible right now & when he should be acting maturely & trying to repair things, instead of being a man, he's being a big baby. 

Personally, I think you can do better than this guy, you're an intelligent & an amazing lady, you deserve better than this. 



Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## phillybeffandswiss

Sorry, then it is time for you to leave. 

Sounds like he will never believe your story and doesn't care how you feel. You sound like you told him the truth and you don't care how he feels. Nope, not assessing blame of who is worse, I am saying neither one of you know how to talk to each other. When it gets to this point, it is time to go. This thread is divided enough so, I'll leave further comments alone. Find you a very good lawyer, completely separate from and not tied to him or his firm in any way. Then prepare to file and get out of the marriage 

Oh and some of the things he is doing and his actions actually sounds like he is reading this website or another. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if he has been reading this thread.


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## aine

CS, I think it is time for a break as you are both in stalemate. You have hurt him and he has hurt you and you are both digging in the heels so there is no budging but both of you are sinking. Sometimes it is good to step away from the situation for a few weeks so you can try and get yourself back to normal before you return and look at it with a different perspective.
I would suggest MC for you both but if he will not go then you go alone, you might learn some new tools and ways of handling him that changes the status quo.

Tell him you are sorry for what you have done but he is not helping you help repair the marriage with his sarcasm, lies, etc.You know he is hurt and if he opens himself to the process you will be there. 
But for the moment you both need time to lick your wounds. I would suggest you go and stay with someone for a set period of time, go on dates (coffee, dinner) agree not to talk about your problems and try and see each other as you did before marriage, find what it was that attracted you in the first place.
Keep the problems for a professional to help you both. Tell him it is worth giving it a final shot, if after that then you both know you tried because if the marriage continues believe me you will both face many more problems and now need to learn how to deal with them as a couple.


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## MattMatt

I think this needs to go private.

As Husband asked her to leave before the "affair" I think there are issues that we clearly have no understanding of. And perhaps Camerashy has no knowledge of, either.

If BIL is husband's brother, I believe this is *very* significant:-



> Then, I met with my BIL and his girlfriend for lunch (they know what's happened) and I ended up having a big ugly cry face to them too and they were so angry at my H for how he is behaving. They were pretty much asking what the heck I was doing, I should leave him etc.


Camerashy, there's only so much you can do. 

You are probably making yourself feel ill with all the strain, so I think a visit to the doctor might be in order. He could prescribe something like a short term course of Seroxat to help you get yourself back on track.


----------



## Bibi1031

I don't even know what to say that can make you feel better Camerashy. 

You have mentioned that if you leave you want nothing of his. Can you start over right there in the town where you live with him? Will you having to leave the home affect your ability to work in the job you currently have?

He is messing with your livelihood because he doesn't care what you need to survive. He is just a big angry bully and that is so wrong. 

Please stop allowing him to interfere with your career. That will more than likely be your livelihood when you leave. *It's time to prepare for the worst and hope for the best instead of the other way around *

I'm so sorry you are hurting this way, but you can't allow him to mess up your job too if you see that he will not be able to forgive you no matter how much you want to try. 

It's funny that he didn't want you to tell anyone and yet, he is badmouthing you with his relatives. He is a very angry and unforgiving man right now. He may not be able to change because like you said...your relationship has reached a point of no return.

Are you willing to attempt a try at communicating with him? Letting him know that this more than likely is the end. Like others said, ask for forgiveness for your transgression and let it go. He can yell all he wants that you slept with the OM. You know the truth and you need to stick by that truth. No matter what you say, he will never believe you. He is not capable, as the anger has taken too hard a hold on him that he can't think, feel, or react to try and fix the relationship.

(((hugs))))

Bibi


----------



## Rubix Cubed

camerashy said:


> He keeps insinuating that I am not putting any effort into repairing our M and that I just want to be done with him...and I'm so exhausted right now that I think he's right. *He thinks I should be falling over myself trying to repair this, but I can't.*


 You should be, but if you feel you can't ( or won't), the writing is on the wall. Divorce and move on.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Rubix Cubed said:


> camerashy said:
> 
> 
> 
> He keeps insinuating that I am not putting any effort into repairing our M and that I just want to be done with him...and I'm so exhausted right now that I think he's right. *He thinks I should be falling over myself trying to repair this, but I can't.*
> 
> 
> 
> You should be, but if you feel you can't ( or won't), the writing is on the wall. Divorce and move on.
Click to expand...

I agree you should be... And he may need to see that first... But pretty much as soon as he sees you trying to win back his trust he has to do the same and win back your trust. 

You're stuck in a bad place I'm afraid


----------



## MrsAldi

Rubix Cubed said:


> You should be, but if you feel you can't ( or won't), the writing is on the wall. Divorce and move on.


To be fair to OP his idea of "fixing the marriage" was her giving in to his demands in the bedroom. 
Demanding sex is never a good solution to repair anything. 


Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## MattMatt

Rubix Cubed said:


> You should be, but if you feel you can't ( or won't), the writing is on the wall. Divorce and move on.


Why should she? 

She is responsible for her errors and he is responsible for his errors.

Things need fixing. By the right person.


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## Rubix Cubed

MattMatt said:


> Why should she?
> 
> She is responsible for her errors and he is responsible for his errors.
> 
> Things need fixing. By the right person.


 Do we really need to rehash the last 53 pages of you taking her side. She went straight into the arms of another man at the first hint of trouble. That's why she should. She seems to realize this, and seems remorseful of her actions , It's too bad you can't realize that. There is NO evidence of him cheating, she did. She needs to decide to do the heavy lifting in the reconciliation and do it or decide he's too big of an a$$hole and cut and run.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Let's be truly fair, she has stated many things he thinks aren't being done to "fix the marriage" including sex. Personally, it is time to go. Neither is budging in their line in the sand. She's exhausted and we know he was as well because he said as much before, she offered to leave to keep him in the marriage. Now, she shouldn't do anything she doesn't want. Nope, his actions warrant no sex. Let's be real though, no sex is feeding the "she had sex" monster in his mind. She has rejected his crappy attempts at sex. Then she broke down to his family members and told his brother. This is stressful and she needed someone to talk to, but they both keep doing things to sabotage each other.


> Demanding sex is never a good solution to repair anything.


Agreed.


----------



## MattMatt

Rubix Cubed said:


> Do we really need to rehash the last 53 pages of you taking her side. She went straight into the arms of another man at the first hint of trouble. That's why she should. She seems to realize this, and seems remorseful of her actions , It's too bad you can't realize that. There is NO evidence of him cheating, she did. She needs to decide to do the heavy lifting in the reconciliation and do it or decide he's too big of an a$$hole and cut and run.


The problem is that some people are willing to give her husband a pass for his bad behaviour

Camerashy has acknowledged the wrong she did. Straight away.

However her husband seems to be of the opinion that he has done nothing wrong in their marriage.

Please do not confuse heavy lifting with allowing bad behaviour,
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Let's be truly fair, she has stated many things he thinks aren't being done to "fix the marriage" including sex. Personally, it is time to go. Neither is budging in their line in the sand. She's exhausted and we know he was as well because he said as much before, she offered to leave to keep him in the marriage. Now, she shouldn't do anything she doesn't want. Nope, his actions warrant no sex. Let's be real though, no sex is feeding the "she had sex" monster in his mind. She has rejected his crappy attempts at sex. Then she broke down to his family members and told his brother. This is stressful and she needed someone to talk to, but they both keep doing things to sabotage each other.
> Agreed.


And his brother agreed with Camerashy.

A fact that speaks volumes to be honest.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## solute21

I’m not going to try and convince you that you can undo weeks of struggling and disappointment. But, i believed nothing is impossible and with GOD things can be normal back and better than formal. @camerashy do you believe that your current marriage crisis can be the catalyst 4 a turning point or a new beginning that will make your marriage stronger and better than it has ever been. Divorce is not an option for me because i don't usually encourage it. Fortunately, there’s a better way of approaching this kind of issues..............but that will be next post because i am at work right now. stay safe


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## MattMatt

solute21 said:


> I’m not going to try and convince you that you can undo weeks of struggling and disappointment. But, i believed nothing is impossible and with GOD things can be normal back and better than formal. @camerashy do you believe that your current marriage crisis can be the catalyst 4 a turning point or a new beginning that will make your marriage stronger and better than it has ever been. Divorce is not an option for me because i don't usually encourage it. Fortunately, there’s a better way of approaching this kind of issues..............but that will be next post because i am at work right now. stay safe


I hope you are right.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

MattMatt said:


> And his brother agreed with Camerashy.
> 
> A fact that speaks volumes to be honest.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


A fact which has no context for me. Was he white knighting? Was he taking his own wife's side to keep his home life drama free? Was he genuinely ashamed of his brother? Was he hurting for camerashy? Neither of us know his true motivations and it speaks volumes for multiple reasons.


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## MattMatt

phillybeffandswiss said:


> A fact which has no context for me. Was he white knighting? Was he taking his own wife's side to keep his home life drama free? Was he genuinely ashamed of his brother? Was he hurting for camerashy? Neither of us know his true motivations and it speaks volumes for multiple reasons.


The context for the brother could be that he had seem the marriage all along, knows the faults of Camerashy *and* of his brother.

When my little brother's first marriage crashed and burned I knew two things: One it was not entirely his fault, that the behaviour of his wife had caused the majority of the problems. 

But! I also knew of my brother's problems, which did not help things at all.

They have both admitted their failings in the marriage and are now good friends.

They both had therapy, which also helped them both.

Camerashy's husband will not even countenance therapy, so that might never be an option. Sadly.

@camerashy how are you holding up? How is your husband holding up?


----------



## camerashy

phillybeffandswiss said:


> A fact which has no context for me. Was he white knighting? Was he taking his own wife's side to keep his home life drama free? Was he genuinely ashamed of his brother? Was he hurting for camerashy? Neither of us know his true motivations and it speaks volumes for multiple reasons.





MattMatt said:


> The context for the brother could be that he had seem the marriage all along, knows the faults of Camerashy *and* of his brother.
> 
> When my little brother's first marriage crashed and burned I knew two things: One it was not entirely his fault, that the behaviour of his wife had caused the majority of the problems.
> 
> But! I also knew of my brother's problems, which did not help things at all.
> 
> They have both admitted their failings in the marriage and are now good friends.
> 
> They both had therapy, which also helped them both.
> 
> Camerashy's husband will not even countenance therapy, so that might never be an option. Sadly.
> 
> @camerashy how are you holding up? How is your husband holding up?



@phillybeffandswiss @MattMatt

I've known my BIL longer than I've known my H. We were/are very good friends, although naturally not as close since I got married.

He's genuinely angry at my H for how he's been acting, and this goes back well before the kissing incident.

Not a whole lot of progress here @MattMatt 

I had to take a few days out to work out what I'm going to do. At this stage, I am looking for my own place, but I haven't told my H yet.


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## MattMatt

camerashy said:


> @phillybeffandswiss @MattMatt
> 
> I've known my BIL longer than I've known my H. We were/are very good friends, although naturally not as close since I got married.
> 
> He's genuinely angry at my H for how he's been acting, and this goes back well before the kissing incident.
> 
> Not a whole lot of progress here @MattMatt
> 
> I had to take a few days out to work out what I'm going to do. At this stage, I am looking for my own place, but I haven't told my H yet.


You being forced into looking for your own place.

Would this be your husband's longterm goal even without the kissing incident?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## camerashy

MattMatt said:


> You being forced into looking for your own place.
> 
> Would this be your husband's longterm goal even without the kissing incident?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 @MattMatt I don't know. He seems to want me to stay, or so he says. He acts very differently though. I'm sick of constantly feeling like I have whiplash. He doesn't want me working, which is just...ridiculous. I think that he just doesn't want me to have any sort of independence (and so I have to stay) but at the same time he's allowed to treat me terribly and make threats etc. I'm just so over it.

I saw my therapist earlier in the week and he suggested that I try talk to my H and tell him that I am not willing to keep trying unless he agrees to do MC, even just a for a few sessions and re-evaluate from there - H told me he won't respond to ultimatums and that he won't go to MC. He said I can go to as much IC as I want, but he doesn't want any part in it.


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## MattMatt

camerashy said:


> @MattMatt I don't know. He seems to want me to stay, or so he says. He acts very differently though. I'm sick of constantly feeling like I have whiplash. He doesn't want me working, which is just...ridiculous. I think that he just doesn't want me to have any sort of independence (and so I have to stay) but at the same time he's allowed to treat me terribly and make threats etc. I'm just so over it.
> 
> I saw my therapist earlier in the week and he suggested that I try talk to my H and tell him that I am not willing to keep trying unless he agrees to do MC, even just a for a few sessions and re-evaluate from there - H told me he won't respond to ultimatums and that he won't go to MC. He said I can go to as much IC as I want, but he doesn't want any part in it.


I wonder. Does your husband have a bug on your mobile?

Is it possible that the incident at the club was a setup with someone your husband hired to trap you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## camerashy

MattMatt said:


> I wonder. Does your husband have a bug on your mobile?
> 
> Is it possible that the incident at the club was a setup with someone your husband hired to trap you?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 @MattMatt Nah, I don't think he would do something like that. And even in the unlikely chance he would do something like that, I still did what I did. 

But in all honestly, I'm honestly almost beyond the point of caring. A few days I was in a really bad spot mentally and emotionally and I found myself wishing he would just cheat on me, cause then I could just walk out. 

I feel terrible for even thinking it, but I just don't feel like I have anything to give anymore.


----------



## MattMatt

camerashy said:


> @MattMatt Nah, I don't think he would do something like that. And even in the unlikely chance he would do something like that, I still did what I did.
> 
> But in all honestly, I'm honestly almost beyond the point of caring. A few days I was in a really bad spot mentally and emotionally and I found myself wishing he would just cheat on me, cause then I could just walk out.
> 
> I feel terrible for even thinking it, but I just don't feel like I have anything to give anymore.


He is probably not cheating on you.

BUT! He IS cheating you out of a good marriage by his actions.

Did he change In his attitude towards you?

If he did, when did it happen? Was it an immediate beginning or slow over a period?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MrsAldi

@camerashy if he's unwilling to do marriage counseling then don't feel bad. 
It takes two people to make or break a marriage. 
My guess is he has fears that he will be judged by the counselor, something many people don't like. 
Also being told that some of his stipulations that he give you are perhaps unreasonable.
You've done all you can to help your marriage, it's in his hands now.
All you can do is look after your own happiness. 
Stay strong & look after yourself. 

 


Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## TDSC60

MattMatt said:


> He is probably not cheating on you._Posted via Mobile Device_


One of the few times I will disagree with @MattMatt.

In your first post you said that all this started when your husband wanted to take a "break" from the marriage and you moved out to live with a friend for a couple of weeks.

Most of the time when a spouse wants a "break" or separation with different living space, it is because they want unrestricted access to another person. Not every time, but it is common.


----------



## GusPolinski

MrsAldi said:


> @camerashy if he's unwilling to do marriage counseling then don't feel bad.
> *It takes two people to make or break a marriage.*
> My guess is he has fears that he will be judged by the counselor, something many people don't like.
> Also being told that some of his stipulations that he give you are perhaps unreasonable.
> You've done all you can to help your marriage, it's in his hands now.
> All you can do is look after your own happiness.
> Stay strong & look after yourself.


Takes two to make, but only one to break.

Agree w/ the rest.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt

TDSC60 said:


> One of the few times I will disagree with @MattMatt.
> 
> In your first post you said that all this started when your husband wanted to take a "break" from the marriage and you moved out to live with a friend for a couple of weeks.
> 
> Most of the time when a spouse wants a "break" or separation with different living space, it is because they want unrestricted access to another person. Not every time, but it is common.


You might be right. 

But I think he might be tired of being married but not having an affair.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TDSC60

MattMatt said:


> You might be right.
> 
> But I think he might be tired of being married but not having an affair.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But she says they have only been married 2 years in July. How can he be tired of being married so fast unless he has a roving eye?

Regardless of what either one has done outside of the marriage (that we know about) to this point, so much discontent in a marriage of less than 2 years does not look good.


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## MattMatt

TDSC60 said:


> But she says they have only been married 2 years in July. How can he be tired of being married so fast unless he has a roving eye?
> 
> Regardless of what either one has done outside of the marriage (that we know about) to this point, so much discontent in a marriage of less than 2 years does not look good.


I knew someone who did something similar.

After being married for a couple of years, maybe three, he realised he didn't want to be married anymore. 

He didn't create fake arguments with his wife to drive her away.

He just told her straight that it wasn't her fault, he wanted his bachelor lifestyle back so he made a major financial payment to her (to assuage his guilt, I thought!) and they got divorced.


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## alte Dame

You may have answered this already (and please forgive me if you have), but do you have the full story on what happened at his workplace?


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## MattMatt

alte Dame said:


> You may have answered this already (and please forgive me if you have), but do you have the full story on what happened at his workplace?


Now, that's a very interesting point.

Maybe there was more to it than Camerashy knows about?

Even inappropriate emails to a non-work account?:scratchhead:


----------



## Spicy

I will first say that I haven't read all 54 pages of this, I will, but don't have time now. So if I am way off base because of that, I apologize.

You say he's emotional. I think his feelings were super hurt by you not being as sensitive as he wanted you to be with his work situation. He threw a little tizzy fit. He was gonna teach you a lesson, so you would be more sensitive like him. It majorly backfired because you ended up kissing random dance floor dude (ick). 

I think you guys love each other, and could make this work, except now your feathers are all in a big ruffle too. Your gonna end up throwing away this marriage because of a series of things you both have had some stupid reactions to. We are all imperfect, it happens in every relationship. I'm as guilty as most. 

He's stubborn and your stubborn. Aren't we all? I know I am. It was a mistake for you to leave the home. I know he asked you too, but it's your home too, and if you would have stayed this would most likely be a fading memory. By staying home, you work through your disagreements, and you don't end up kissing other people and causing even bigger problems. Now, you have had all these people telling you he's a crazy abuser, or how he's just like other people's exes etc, or how he was never good enough for you, or whatever...making your already crummy situation seem a million times worse than it was to you before you got all this outside input. He probably has people whispering crap to him about you also...

I heard your heart in yours posts at the beginning, that was you speaking. Go back and read them. It was a wife that loves and misses her husband, and wants her marriage to work. A month or so later, your speaking everyone else's words. Tread carefully. He loves you, he is a good person, and SO ARE YOU. You both made some bad choices here, but nothing so earth shattering that you can't get past this. Every marriage takes work, A LOT of work, and there are surely rough patches. 

If this is real love, nurture it, work at it, keep it and cherish it. Everything is so damn disposable these days. People toss away spouses like they do paper towels. Honor the vows you took, and work on your marriage. 

I wish you both the best.


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## turnera

When you say you want to work, what kind of work? Does it pay enough to live on your own?


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## MattMatt

Are you implying that Camerashy is so empty headed that she can be swayed by people on an Internet forum in only a matter of several weeks?

I hope that's not your thinking.

Camerashy loves her husband. That is true.

However being in love with someone does not mean you excuse their bad behaviour to you.

They would benefit from counselling.

But Mr Camerashy does not believe in counselling.

He has, by accident or design, blocked their progress.

That and demanding his wife leaves the marital home with no valid or good reason casts a shadow over the marriage and his motives, to my mind.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

turnera2 said:


> When you say you want to work, what kind of work? Does it pay enough to live on your own?


Camerashy is a photographer. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

The question, though, is can she make a living?


----------



## Spicy

MattMatt said:


> Are you implying that Camerashy is so empty headed that she can be swayed by people on an Internet forum in only a matter of several weeks?
> 
> I hope that's not your thinking.
> 
> Camerashy loves her husband. That is true.
> 
> However being in love with someone does not mean you excuse their bad behaviour to you.
> 
> They would benefit from counselling.
> 
> But Mr Camerashy does not believe in counselling.
> 
> He has, by accident or design, blocked their progress.
> 
> That and demanding his wife leaves the marital home with no valid or good reason casts a shadow over the marriage and his motives, to my mind.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Dear Matt Squared,

The thought had never crossed my mind. I think Camerashy is very smart. If I thought she was empty headed, I would never have taken the time to reply. Quite the opposite. I think we have two very good people here. I could be so totally out in left field here, but if I didn't say what I am feeling as I am reading this, what good are we all doing for each other? Many times different prespectives give us other ways to look at things, sometimes helping to clarify our own ideas and feelings.

That being said, I absolutely think she could be affected by negative comments about her husband from friends, family, bar advisors and random internet people. Especially when she is away from her husband for this long. Plus, she is hurt and frustrated with him right now. Yes, it is easier for her to have her ears tickled by others telling her that he's bad, and that this is mostly his fault, because he started the original problem. It is easier on our consciences if we can shift a good portion of the blame off on someone else. No one really wins in the scenario.

The negative things that others say plant seeds of doubt. The more you hear them, and the multiple sources they come from, are like fertilizer, water and sunshine to those seeds. The more time that passes, and the more distant they become from each other, those seeds get deeper roots and it becomes easier to adopt these ideas. She's not immune to be affected by what other people say. In fact, she is probably more vulnerable than others while she is down and out. 

I agree with you, love shouldn't excuse bad behavior. It should though help us to be forgiving, compassionate and able to learn from our mistakes, and then do our utmost to avoid repeating them. 

Who of us can say that we never displayed bad behavior in our relationships? I know I have! Were we not thankful for the times our spouses forgave us, and they were willing to move on? I know I have been. 

Many times our relationships end up being stronger by weathering storms together. 

I also agree they would benefit from MC. I think Mr. Camerashy might be willing to try that in the future. It's something that might take him some time to agree to it. Sadly, they may not make it to that point.

Even though he has put a stumbling block on the road back to each other, they could overcome that and get back on track. I sincerely hope they do.


----------



## TDSC60

MattMatt said:


> I knew someone who did something similar.
> 
> After being married for a couple of years, maybe three, he realised he didn't want to be married anymore.
> 
> He didn't create fake arguments with his wife to drive her away.
> 
> He just told her straight that it wasn't her fault, he wanted his bachelor lifestyle back so he made a major financial payment to her (to assuage his guilt, I thought!) and they got divorced.


It takes all kinds I guess.

If he simply does not want to be married then the honorable thing to do is to tell her so.

Maybe he is trying to drive her into leaving him so he does not feel guilty about ending the marriage?


----------



## MattMatt

TDSC60 said:


> It takes all kinds I guess.
> 
> If he simply does not want to be married then the honorable thing to do is to tell her so.
> 
> Maybe he is trying to drive her into leaving him so he does not feel guilty about ending the marriage?


That's certainly a possibility.


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## phillybeffandswiss

His driving her to leave was suggested long ago. The guilt part was raised as well some said because he was already cheating others said it wasn't.


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## MattMatt

phillybeffandswiss said:


> His driving her to leave was suggested long ago. The guilt part was raised as well some said because he was already cheating others said it wasn't.


There's definitely _something_ wrong with his behaviour back then.


----------



## Bibi1031

MattMatt said:


> There's definitely _something_ wrong with his behaviour back then.


That's a mystery we may never be privy too!


----------



## MattMatt

Bibi1031 said:


> That's a mystery we may never be privy too!


Us or Camerashy for that matter. 

Unless.... @camerashy does your BIL know why Mr C threw you out of the house?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Bibi1031

MattMatt said:


> Us or Camerashy for that matter.
> 
> Unless.... @camerashy does your BIL know why Mr C threw you out of the house?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh, he did tell her why he wanted the break. He wasn't sure about staying married. He didn't like how she was not there for him and how she didn't back him up enough about the whole work incident, not what she said verbatim, but something along those lines. It was broad and fishy to me. Then, she did what we all know, I he completely shut down.

That's why I said we may never be privy to what was really going on inside him back then.


----------



## MattMatt

@camerashy Any news? How are you and Mr C?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

Any news? Any developments? (Sorry, that was an old fashioned photography joke.  )


----------



## camerashy

Hey guys, it's been a while. I know. It's been a really trying time with lots of emotional upheavals etc. I don't even know where to begin. 

H found the thread (snooping) and it was both the best and the worst thing that could have happened. Good because it led to some really important discussions and revelations...and some much-needed honesty between us. He took what has been said in the thread quite badly. I don't think he realized just how bad our communication had broken down and he was really...I'll say "disturbed" to learn that I actually felt that he was being abusive towards me. I had to put on my big girl panties and face things when I would have much preferred to bury my head in the sand. I think that's been a big contributor to the lack of communication between he and I. He pushes...I pull away and pretend nothing's happening. 

In the days leading up to him discovering the thread, he was barely ever home but he kept ringing the house to check that I was home and he admitted (after reading the thread and us talking things out) that he had been taking a woman out for drinks with the intent to, I guess, have some sort of revenge affair. He says he didn't "do anything". I don't know if I believe that, if I even want to believe that, or if it even matters. In any case, I don't know what to do with that information anyway.

I've heard "stories" from all kinds of people that there was something between the woman with whom he had the work incident with (some kind of emotional, non-physical thing apparently) but once again - I'm not sure what to believe. It seems that now that my A is public knowledge (he told everyone basically, in order to humiliate me basically, which I'm not angry about - it's done, no point crying over spilled milk) everyone has effectively taken sides, and it's those people who are telling all the "stories" so I'm a little reluctant to believe anything at face value. It feels all so very "you know, I never liked him anyway..." And I'm in no mood to play games just to ease my own hurt.

So... anyway, we are currently separated as of this week. Surprisingly, it is my decision. I just can't do the whole love each other one minute and hurt each other the next... and emotionally I don't have anything left to give. However, now that I have decided that it's not going to work, he has done a complete 180 and has decided that he wants to fix things and get back to how we were. It's very confusing. I thought I had come around to his line of thinking and now he's the one who wants to work on things...even MC (the bastard!)

My BIL and his GF has been literal Godsends in the past month. If it wasn't for them I would probably be shopping for myself in the kids clothing section right now. I have always been really close with my BIL (we were very good friends before I met his brother, but not as close after I started dating his brother) and he and his partner have turned out to be my biggest support system through everything which surprised the heck out of me. They've really put their necks on the line for me and I am extremely grateful (and a tiny bit guilty at the same time). 

I have no idea what's going to happen now and no idea what I'm doing or how I'm feeling...but I'm sure I'll get there. Thanks everyone for all of your advice and support.


----------



## farsidejunky

I'm not buying for a minute that nothing happened. I think you are making the right decision to walk away.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## camerashy

farsidejunky said:


> I'm not buying for a minute that nothing happened. I think you are making the right decision to walk away.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


 @farsidejunky I think for me, it was the moment where I couldn't even summon the emotion to be pissed at him, or get angry, or throw **** (or whatever you're supposed to do when your H is effectively going on dates with another W) that I knew there was just nothing left. I was just...done.


----------



## Bibi1031

farsidejunky said:


> I'm not buying for a minute that nothing happened. I think you are making the right decision to walk away.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I agree with Far. You can go to MC, but it won't work. He is completely against this and will only try just to prove to you that it doesn't work. 

I honestly think that your marriage has run its course. Now that you are separated, start thinking on a new life and path for yourself. How is work? Are things better in that department?

Can you make it on your own without him? Can you stay in the town where you live or do you have to move away? I know you have said that you are strong enough to be on your own and that you don't need anything from him. That is good because this is probably what will happen since you two have been married for such a short time and there are no kids in this marriage. Not a lot of assets you two accumulated. Mostly everything is his.


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## MattMatt

Oh, bloody hell. 

Yes there WAS something going on between him and that woman at work.

He either got what he wanted and told her to pither off, or wanted a FWB affair and she, the poor sap, fell in love with him and when he backed off from her she decided to go all Woman Scorned and found that a mate of his who deals with the IT admin 'lost' the emails or she made that up to get revenge on him.

Did her revenge work? Probably. For there will always be a mark on his workplace records.

I think he could well be a serial cheater. You might be best advised to have an STD check.

And Mr C if you are still reading this, yes, it IS pretty much, all your fault. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

camerashy said:


> @farsidejunky I think for me, it was the moment where I couldn't even summon the emotion to be pissed at him, or get angry, or throw **** (or whatever you're supposed to do when your H is effectively going on dates with another W) that I knew there was just nothing left. I was just...done.


It is indifference. 

There are better men out there, CS. Get into IC and heal. Find out how to value yourself so high that it weeds out the @$$holes.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## camerashy

Bibi1031 said:


> I agree with Far. You can go to MC, but it won't work. He is completely against this and will only try just to prove to you that it doesn't work.
> 
> I honestly think that your marriage has run its course. Now that you are separated, start thinking on a new life and path for yourself. How is work? Are things better in that department?
> 
> Can you make it on your own without him? Can you stay in the town where you live or do you have to move away? I know you have said that you are strong enough to be on your own and that you don't need anything from him. That is good because this is probably what will happen since you two have been married for such a short time and there are no kids in this marriage. Not a lot of assets you two accumulated. Mostly everything is his.


 @Bibi1031 Work is ok actually. A while ago I told my H that I just couldn't sit around the house all day (he was never home anyway) and so I have been working recently. Initially, I thought about going home to NZ, but call it avoidance if you will, but I'm just not ready to open that can of worms yet (I need to stand on my own not have my family rush in to protect me). And it's not like I moved here for my H...I had already been here for a couple years when we met. I think I'll be alright.

I haven't even thought about getting a lawyer or anything yet. But I should really look into that. I told H I don't want anything of his, just a clean break, but he's all wound up with how that would "look." I really don't give a **** how it "looks" though. The fact is that it already looks pathetic...we've only been married for 2 years.


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## farsidejunky

More ammo to show he is a turd. 

Flush him.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## camerashy

MattMatt said:


> Oh, bloody hell.
> 
> Yes there WAS something going on between him and that woman at work.
> 
> He either got what he wanted and told her to pither off, or wanted a FWB affair and she, the poor sap, fell in love with him and when he backed off from her she decided to go all Woman Scorned and found that a mate of his who deals with the IT admin 'lost' the emails or she made that up to get revenge on him.
> 
> Did her revenge work? Probably. For there will always be a mark on his workplace records.
> 
> I think he could well be a serial cheater. You might be best advised to have an STD check.
> 
> And Mr C if you are still reading this, yes, it IS pretty much, all your fault.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 @MattMatt Honestly Matt, I don't want to say who it was that first informed me about the emotional relationship thingy, but it was a reliable source. And this source said that it was all done via personal emails etc which were never looked at during the investigation. The woman wanted more and he said no, and so she accused him of harassing her.

H was very cagey/vague about the details right from the word go, and every time I asked him about it, he went straight down the lines of me not believing him... I didn't and I still don't have any hard proof though, so everything is hearsay at this point. That, and, the people who are now coming to me with these stories and incidents are people who are not particularly fond of my H.


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## camerashy

farsidejunky said:


> It is indifference.
> 
> There are better men out there, CS. Get into IC and heal. Find out how to value yourself so high that it weeds out the @$$holes.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


 @farsidejunky Yes, definitely still engaging in IC. But I will tell you exactly what I have told him. Repeatedly.

**** men, I'm getting cats. 

I seriously cannot pick men and I give up. I haven't had one decent one yet.


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## MattMatt

camerashy said:


> @MattMatt Honestly Matt, I don't want to say who it was that first informed me about the emotional relationship thingy, but it was a reliable source. And this source said that it was all done via personal emails etc which were never looked at during the investigation. The woman wanted more and he said no, and so she accused him of harassing her.
> 
> H was very cagey/vague about the details right from the word go, and every time I asked him about it, he went straight down the lines of me not believing him... I didn't and I still don't have any hard proof though, so everything is hearsay at this point. That, and, the people who are now coming to me with these stories and incidents are people who are not particularly fond of my H.


Why are they not fond of him? *Because they know him only too well!*

They know what he is capable of and probably thought: "Oh, Camerashy! You could have done so much better than him!"

But you were in love with him and love, whilst it might not be fully blind, certainly does need a pair of strong glasses, sometimes... 

I'll bore you with a personal story. I did not like my brother's first wife. Why? Because she was horrible! 

I was visiting their home one day. She asked me a question that really demanded that I told her to "f**k off!" however, I was choosing my words carefully, but she jumped in with: "Not answering me, eh? Are you a useless wimp like your brother?"

I made a "stop" gesture with my hand and said: "The reason my brother puts up with your abusive s**t is because he loves you, the poor fool. Please bear this one thing in mind. I will not put up with your s**t, because I *don't* love you. OK?"

She suddenly became all meek and mild and apologised to me. 

She began having a workplace affair and she had the nerve to try to throw my brother out of their home. Oh. That's what your husband did, isn't it? 

Ah! *That's* why your story seemed to resonate with me, as my brother went through the same stuff you did!

And their friends pretty much all sided with my brother, saying how horrible she'd been to them, etc.

Leopards never change their spots, do they?

As for a cat? Go for it! Cats only s**t on your carpet, never on you... :smthumbup:


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## LosingHim

camerashy said:


> **** men, I'm getting cats.
> 
> .


Dogs are better. Just sayin.


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## farsidejunky

Hey, CS?

Gently...

What is the common denominator in those relationships?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Bibi1031

camerashy said:


> I seriously cannot pick men and I give up. I haven't had one decent one yet.


Oh bloody he11 no! You can't give up on men for a couple of turds. You are wiser and you will get stronger with time and IC. You will learn to weed out the turds and toss them like you should have.

You are in your early 30s, life will get better. You will find a great man, there are lots out there; a couple of bad ones are giving good men a bad rep. Don't fall for that mistake. Unfortunately, when we are not all that healthy, we attract not all that healthy partners.

You will be healthy enough to get better and have a better man picker!

I'm glad you want to stay where you are and that you can make it without your family. I agree, most people will tell you all kinds of things about your husband, but let's be honest, the guy is shady to say the least. 

He is not good partner material. Not even his brother sides with him. That is very telling. If it really was all your fault, blood is thicker than water and your BIL is supporting you. He knows his brother better than anyone else because he has known him longer.

Move on and never look back...Mr. CS is not worth it!


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## camerashy

@MattMatt I want that kitty!!!!!

And thanks for sharing. There better be a happy ending to that story!
@LosingHim 

I like both haha. 
@farsidejunky

Control. My first ever relationship was a very abusive one with an extremely controlling man. It took me a very long time to recover from that relationship, and a lot of IC...and even longer to even think of entering into another relationship (years). I think because of that experience, I do tend to unconsciously look for a partner who is strong ("can protect me") but somewhere along the way I muddle up strength with dominating/controlling personalities. The problem with controlling men is that they are very charming in the beginning and can be hard to spot until the relationship is already well established. 

I've done lots of work around it and a lot of IC, support networks etc, and I've spent a lot of time on my own as well just reflecting and trying to work on the parts of myself with seem to attract these sorts of people. I'm at that stage now where I'm like... ok, do I spend another few years on my own and give up things that I would really like to have and experience in this lifetime...or is it just not meant to be.


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## farsidejunky

Don't confuse dominating with domineering.

https://dominationandmastery.wordpress.com/2008/03/09/dominating-versus-domineering/


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## camerashy

Bibi1031 said:


> Oh bloody he11 no! You can't give up on men for a couple of turds. You are wiser and you will get stronger with time and IC. You will learn to weed out the turds and toss them like you should have.
> 
> You are in your early 30s, life will get better. You will find a great man, there are lots out there; a couple of bad ones are giving good men a bad rep. Don't fall for that mistake. Unfortunately, when we are not all that healthy, we attract not all that healthy partners.
> 
> You will be healthy enough to get better and have a better man picker!
> 
> I'm glad you want to stay where you are and that you can make it without your family. I agree, most people will tell you all kinds of things about your husband, but let's be honest, the guy is shady to say the least.
> 
> He is not good partner material. Not even his brother sides with him. That is very telling. If it really was all your fault, blood is thicker than water and your BIL is supporting you. He knows his brother better than anyone else because he has known him longer.
> 
> Move on and never look back...Mr. CS is not worth it!


I honestly don't mind being on my own. Like right now...I'm like "nooooo I wanna play house and have babies and bake cookies and stuff" but when I'm on my own I can ignore those things pretty well, most of the time. I quite like the hermit lifestyle.

I'm pretty numb right now emotionally. But I do know that eventually there's going to be a lot of work and a lot of healing to be done.


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## bandit.45

camerashy what attracts you to a man? And don't just give us the usual pat answers. 

What did this husband and your prior partner have in common? Are they good looking player-types? Plain-ish nerds? Are they jokers? Are they overly serious? Overtly aggressive and bossy? Passive aggressive? Momma's boys? Bad boys? Metrosexual/hipsters? Are they take-charge types who make all the decisions for you, or are they mealy and passive? 

If you can isolate what aspects of a male attracts you maybe we can help you identify those traits that are actually red flags that you should be looking out for next time.


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## Bibi1031

camerashy said:


> *I honestly don't mind being on my own. Like right now...I'm like "nooooo I wanna play house and have babies and bake cookies and stuff" but when I'm on my own I can ignore those things pretty well, most of the time. I quite like the hermit lifestyle.*
> 
> I'm pretty numb right now emotionally. But I do know that eventually there's going to be a lot of work and a lot of healing to be done.


Of course you don't mind being on your own. You need time to heal. Jumping into another relationship is not healthy, you know that very well. You have been terribly hurt before. You know healing takes a long time. Years probably, but the time will come when you will want the company of another that only a partner will give.

Live life the way that makes you feel safe and stable...hermit life is quite nice, if I say so myself. That is my life right now and I do like it. It's mellow. I need mellow right now! :smile2:

I am almost 51, and I know that soon I will need the company of another. I have embraced the single life. I will not marry again, but miss out on one good man one day...that, I will never do. I know he is out there. Making him come out and meet me half way, will be the fun part.:wink2:


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## MattMatt

Bibi1031 said:


> Of course you don't mind being on your own. You need time to heal. Jumping into another relationship is not healthy, you know that very well. You have been terribly hurt before. You know healing takes a long time. Years probably, but the time will come when you will want the company of another that only a partner will give.
> 
> Live life the way that makes you feel safe and stable...hermit life is quite nice, if I say so myself. That is my life right now and I do like it. It's mellow. I need mellow right now! :smile2:
> 
> I am almost 51, and I know that soon I will need the company of another. I have embraced the single life. I will not marry again, but miss out on one good man one day...that, I will never do. I know he is out there. Making him come out and meet me half way, will be the fun part.:wink2:


And @camerashy you could bake cookies for your friends on TAM??


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## Bibi1031

MattMatt said:


> And @camerashy you could bake cookies for your friends on TAM??


Great idea Mr. Kitty!

Can you bake a batch with Splenda instead of sugar...for your diabetic friends? :grin2:


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## MattMatt

Bibi1031 said:


> Great idea Mr. Kitty!
> 
> Can you bake a batch with Splenda instead of sugar...for your diabetic friends? :grin2:


*What? *You mean people with Type 2 Diabetes should avoid cakes, biscuits and cookies baked with sugar? 

How come I didn't know that? 

Oh, wait! I _did_ know that, but I am in denial. OK....


----------



## bandit.45

Bibi1031 said:


> I am almost 51, and I know that soon I will need the company of another. I have embraced the single life. I will not marry again, but miss out on one good man one day...that, I will never do. I know he is out there. Making him come out and meet me half way, will be the fun part.:wink2:


How about well-worn, 48 year olds with devastating charm and weird senses of humor?


----------



## camerashy

Banned-It.45 said:


> camerashy what attracts you to a man? And don't just give us the usual pat answers.
> 
> What did this husband and your prior partner have in common? Are they good looking player-types? Plain-ish nerds? Are they jokers? Are they overly serious? Overtly aggressive and bossy? Passive aggressive? Momma's boys? Bad boys? Metrosexual/hipsters? Are they take-charge types who make all the decisions for you, or are they mealy and passive?
> 
> If you can isolate what aspects of a male attracts you maybe we can help you identify those traits that are actually red flags that you should be looking out for next time.


 @Banned-It.45 I don't like comparing my H to my first BF (for obvious reasons) and they don't have all that much in common apart from both being pretty good looking (not that that matters to me in the slightest...actually I prefer a more rugged "manly" man look than a conventional "pretty boy"), both tall and both pretty arrogant. 

My first BF was pretty shy/serious (I thought) when I first met him, but when he'd drink his arrogant/****y side would emerge. Looking back I felt something was a little "off" about him right from the start, like he was putting on a front, but I was young and ignored it. His controlling side emerged really quickly into the relationship but by that point he had me so manipulated I often thought that there was something wrong with me that deserved being treated badly.

My H is definitely a take-charge kind of guy. I liked that about him instantly. I was really close friends with his brother at the time and the first time I met my H I was just staring between these two brothers who couldn't be any more different. So my H pretty much had my attention instantly cause I had been expecting to meet someone completely different. He was all passionate, charming, intelligent and animated... the complete opposite to first BF, but at the same time I could tell that not many people would mess with him. He had this air of arrogance about him. He was just really interesting to me, and something I wouldn't ordinarily look for or pay a lot of attention to. It's funny, cause if it had have been anyone else, I ordinarily would have been turned off by his needing to be the center of everything. He really commands attention.

It's actually funny when I think about it, cause neither of em are like me in any way haha


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## camerashy

MattMatt said:


> And @camerashy you could bake cookies for your friends on TAM??





Bibi1031 said:


> Great idea Mr. Kitty!
> 
> Can you bake a batch with Splenda instead of sugar...for your diabetic friends? :grin2:





Banned-It.45 said:


> How about well-worn, 48 year olds with devastating charm and weird senses of humor?


Yes, yes, yes.

:toast:


----------



## bandit.45

First focus on the definable and quantifiable. 

What did traits did these two have in common? Don't list the differences right now, just the similarities. List them out.


----------



## camerashy

Banned-It.45 said:


> First focus on the definable and quantifiable.
> 
> What did traits did these two have in common? Don't list the differences right now, just the similarities. List them out.


Pretty boys 
Serious 
Arrogant 
Quick tempers 
Care a little too much about their appearance 
Mummas boys (like real bad)

It's funny...the things they have in common are the things I don't like in people at all.


----------



## Bibi1031

Banned-It.45 said:


> How about well-worn, 48 year olds with devastating charm and weird senses of humor?


Well @camerashy did't shy away from that possibility, which is great. She is open to new horizons in the future.

As for me, I never say never!>


----------



## camerashy

Bibi1031 said:


> Well @camerashy did't shy away from that possibility, which is great. She is open to new horizons in the future.
> 
> As for me, I never say never!>


For you Bibi!

I'm never leaving my house unless it's to buy food or books, run, or take pictures.


----------



## TheCuriousWife

I see that you guys are separated. Good! Leave this man and never look back! 

I am 100% against any sort of abuse. I was raised in a family with mental and verbal abuse. Not a single person EVER deserves to be name called, yelled at, belittled, etc.

Not once has my husband ever called me anything nasty, raised his voice at me, made me feel afraid of him, etc. I would NEVER tolerate it. I start triggering when I hear other people raise their voice, even if it's not directed at me. I just want to crawl into a corner and hide. Adults can disagree without reverting to childish tactics, and verbal abuse. That's not disagreeing, that's bullying. Any person who can hurt and disrespect another human like that is scum. 

How DARE he treat you like that, especially considering your previous trauma. He has to know that it would be a trigger for you. 

For real. You deserve so much better. Wishing the best for you in days to come.


----------



## bandit.45

camerashy said:


> Pretty boys
> Serious
> Arrogant
> Quick tempers
> Care a little too much about their appearance
> Mummas boys (like real bad)
> 
> It's funny...the things they have in common are the things I don't like in people at all.


Not funny. Telling. 

Now we are getting somewhere. So it sounds like they are both spoiled and narcissistic to varying degrees. Did they both treat you like you were their mom? Did they expect you to cook and clean up after them, wait on them, and make sure everything went smooth and right at home? And I bet if you didn't, they would lose it and go off on you right?


----------



## bandit.45

Bibi1031 said:


> Well @camerashy did't shy away from that possibility, which is great. She is open to new horizons in the future.
> 
> As for me, I never say never!>


I'm your man!


----------



## camerashy

Banned-It.45 said:


> Not funny. Telling.
> 
> Now we are getting somewhere. So it sounds like they are both spoiled and narcissistic to varying degrees. Did they both treat you like you were their mom? Did they expect you to cook and clean up after them, wait on them, and make sure everything went smooth and right at home? And I bet if you didn't, they would lose it and go off on you right?


 @Banned-It.45 My first BF was definitely not spoiled by his mother in any way, shape or form. They had a lot of issues, but despite this, he always put her up on a pedestal. He was constantly trying to please her. My H was definitely spoiled. And yes, to varying degrees they both treated me like I was their mother, despite the fact that I am/was the younger partner.


----------



## MattMatt

camerashy said:


> @Banned-It.45 My first BF was definitely not spoiled by his mother in any way, shape or form. They had a lot of issues, but despite this, he always put her up on a pedestal. He was constantly trying to please her. My H was definitely spoiled. And yes, to varying degrees they both treated me like I was their mother, despite the fact that I am/was the younger partner.


It could be that they were both broken and unable to relate to women in a mature, adult fashion?


----------



## MattMatt

Oh, yes! All the people who jumped in and began throwing metaphorical punches and shouting how there was no proof that Mr C had cheated and that it was all on Camerashy for getting groped in a nightclub?

Turns out that he *was* cheating, with the woman at work and probably other women, too.

I think you owe Camerashy an apology, as it appears Mr C left the marriage many months previously.

Humble Pie, anyone?


----------



## Maxo

Banned-It.45 said:


> How about well-worn, 48 year olds with devastating charm and weird senses of humor?


You have hit the wall.


----------



## MattMatt

Lardo said:


> You have hit the wall.


I don't know so much. An American accent and a New Zealand accent? It might work out well.


----------



## camerashy

MattMatt said:


> I don't know so much. An American accent and a New Zealand accent? It might work out well.


 @MattMatt Good luck getting me to even step foot on American soil again if Trump gets the win. 

The Americans have gone mad. They've been eating too much British beef I think. 

Moo-ooooo!


----------



## camerashy

MattMatt said:


> Oh, yes! All the people who jumped in and began throwing metaphorical punches and shouting how there was no proof that Mr C had cheated and that it was all on Camerashy for getting groped in a nightclub?
> 
> Turns out that he *was* cheating, with the woman at work and probably other women, too.
> 
> I think you owe Camerashy an apology, as it appears Mr C left the marriage many months previously.
> 
> Humble Pie, anyone?


I don't have any hard proof, just a lot of whispering in my ear. No one has said they actually "did" anything. Not sure about the woman he was taking out though.


----------



## blahfridge

camerashy said:


> I don't have any hard proof, just a lot of whispering in my ear. No one has said they actually "did" anything. Not sure about the woman he was taking out though.


His behavior at the time he asked for the split certainly indicates that SOMETHING was going on. Cheaters do a lot of projecting - they make their partners the bad guy so they can justify in their mind the cheating behavior. If she was more supportive, if she wasn't so controlling, if she...you name it. I think his blaming it on your not being supportive is a crock of ****. Whether it was an actual PA or an EA or just an ego boast from the office woman's attention, he was emotionally checked out. Rather than face what he did, he blamed you. It's classic cheater behavior.


----------



## MattMatt

blahfridge said:


> His behavior at the time he asked for the split certainly indicates that SOMETHING was going on. Cheaters do a lot of projecting - they make their partners the bad guy so they can justify in their mind the cheating behavior. If she was more supportive, if she wasn't so controlling, if she...you name it. I think his blaming it on your not being supportive is a crock of ****. Whether it was an actual PA or an EA or just an ego boast from the office woman's attention, he was emotionally checked out. Rather than face what he did, he blamed you. It's classic cheater behavior.


I agree, @blahfridge. @camerashy supported him. But it wasn't enough for him, he said. Why? He felt guilt as he had been up to something with that woman and was doing the classic misdirection thing?


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## Maxo

MattMatt said:


> I agree, @blahfridge. @camerashy supported him. But it wasn't enough for him, he said. Why? He felt guilt as he had been up to something with that woman and was doing the classic misdirection thing?


Looks like you may have jumped the gun,Matt. Open up for your pie:x


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## MattMatt

Lardo said:


> Looks like you may have jumped the gun,Matt. Open up for your pie:x


What? 

You DO realise that without any reason that her husband asked for a separation? 

You really need to read ALL of this thread before making a judgement.

His own brother knew he was in the wrong...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Maxo

MattMatt said:


> What?
> 
> You DO realise that without any reason that her husband asked for a separation?
> 
> You really need to read ALL of this thread before making a judgement.
> 
> His own brother knew he was in the wrong...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry,but you jumped to conclusions on scant evidence. You need to be more objective.:nerd:


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## MattMatt

Lardo said:


> Sorry,but you jumped to conclusions on scant evidence. You need to be more objective.:nerd:


The OP has been told by a reliable source that her husband was up to shenanigans with that woman. And he has been seeing another woman.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Maxo

MattMatt said:


> The OP has been told by a reliable source that her husband was up to shenanigans with that woman. And he has been seeing another woman.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She just said she has no hard evidence. So,I take her at her word.


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## MattMatt

Lardo said:


> She just said she has no hard evidence. So,I take her at her word.


There is no smoking gun. But when there is a gun that is no longer smoking and a bullet hole through the victim usually the conclusion is that the victim was shot. With the gun. 

Any Solicitor would confirm this idea.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Maxo

MattMatt said:


> There is no smoking gun. But when there is a gun that is no longer smoking and a bullet hole through the victim usually the conclusion is that the victim was shot. With the gun.
> 
> Any Solicitor would confirm this idea.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I guess I just trust her judgement more than you do.


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## camerashy

@MattMatt @Lardo

I only know for sure that my H had been taking a woman out (with the intent of having a revenge affair). He admitted that. He said he couldn't go through with it. He flat out denies anything happened with the woman from work. 3 people have told me very different stories, but all have said it was an emotional thing in which my H put a stop to before things got too out of hand. If I had to speculate, my best guess would be that this woman showed interest and he used her as some kind of ego booster.

I honestly can't even summon the emotions to truly care about what he did with either women. Well that's not entirely correct...I care, but I just don't have the energy to feel angry or need to dig any deeper into the matter. It's been one hell of a roller coaster ride since my indiscretion was aired and at the end of the day, regardless of what has happened...I don't believe I or my H possess the tools to communicate effectively in order for any reconciliation to happen. And so, from my end, it's over. We can't keep hurting each other over and over. We just don't work. There comes a point where someone has to say "enough."


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## Bibi1031

camerashy said:


> @MattMatt Good luck getting me to even step foot on American soil again if Trump gets the win.
> 
> The Americans have gone mad. They've been eating too much British beef I think.
> 
> Moo-ooooo!


LOL

No thank you on Trump, British beef or humble pie. But yes to sugar free cookies, any type will do as I ain't picky!


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## MattMatt

Lardo said:


> I guess I just trust her judgement more than you do.


There are some patterns of behaviour that are true to the vast majority of cheaters.

It had bern noted that Camerashy's husband has exibited a large number of these.

There are many so-called red flags thst he has waved. 

Like I say read the entire thread check out other threads and see for yourself. 

Maybe they would not convince a Solicitor or a Barrister or a judge, but they would convince someone who has been cheated on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr Blunt

> I don't believe I or my H possess the tools to communicate effectively in order for any reconciliation to happen. And so, *from my end, it's over.* We can't keep hurting each other over and over. We just don't work. There comes a point where someone has to say "enough."


Now that you have made up your mind (“from my end, it's over”) you can concentrate on only yourself without his distractions. 

Forget about all his short comings and work on your own. It does not matter now who is most at fault because the relationship is over; your future is wth you. You know what you need to work on so I encourage you to work on what you know you need to work on. You will be the one that benefits.


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## manfromlamancha

I just read this whole thread (quite long).

Very very sad story.

Husband has EA but stops it.

Arguments.

Wife leaves and stays with friend and makes out with OM at club.

Honest with husband,

Tries to make it work - husband is an idiot - angry and projecting.

After a long time of to-ing and fro-ing on issues decide to have a family.

Husband still does not believe wife and wants to have a revenge affair but doesn't.

Wife finds out and has had enough and quits the marriage.

All the time (I believe) being in love with each other and still loving each other.

As my good friends, Phil and Don said, "so sad to watch good love go bad"!


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