# Some insights on cheating



## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

I read, what I consider to be an interesting and informative article today. It claims that cheating is much more common and undiscovered than generally though.

What I found most interesting were some of the insights into why people, especially women cheat.

https://www.fatherly.com/love-money/what-drives-women-cheat-infidelity-affair/



> “Something that some of the women in my study brought up that I never thought about was that when they were searching for an affair partner, they were having these candid, frank discussions about sexual compatibility and sexual preferences,” says Walker. “When I got married, I never had any of these conversations, and I started thinking, ‘You know, that’s true, we don’t have those conversations.’ We kind of wander into these romantic pairings and we fall in love and we kind of think that the sex is going to take care of itself. But, according to the data, that’s not true.”





> “It was really pretty sobering, to be honest with you,” Walker says. “This is a person who’s pledged to love you for all time and you say to them, ‘Hey, I want to try role-playing,’ or whatever it is, and then think about having the person that you love and trust the most say, ‘That’s disgusting. What’s wrong with you?’ If you listen to that for years, and then in walks somebody who’s not only like, ‘That’s not disgusting,’ but they’re into it, you can see how attractive that would be.”





> “They don’t want to leave their husband, they love their husband, they’ve got a great life, but what they really want is a variety in their sexual partners,” she says. “It’s not just, ‘Oh I want my husband and I want this one affair.’ It’s, ‘I want my husband and I want to taste all the parts of the menu!'”


Personally, I am very pro marriage (married over 47 years to my wife). I did come very close to divorcing her a couple of times. I don't think she has ever had an affair, as she is pretty Low (sexual) Desire. Marriage should be about commitment and working through difficult issues.

Even though cheating is not something I see eye to eye with, this article does offer some insights and explanations that seem (in a strange way) to rationalize what many do.

Thoughts?


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

"‘Oh I want my husband and I want this one affair.’ It’s, ‘I want my husband and I want to taste all the parts of the menu!'”'
This is disgusting and an absolute disrespect of the marriage and the husband. CLEARLY they are just using the husband for $$ and a house, NOT as a loving partner. I bet if her HUSBAND said/did that, it would be a war.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

If it's undiscovered then how can the writer of the article possibly know that it has happened to make that assumption? 

I think that some will try and justify cheating by making out its very common therefore they aren't that bad(apparently).

I think that cheating basically comes down to lack of character and integrity, and downright selfishness.


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## Luminous (Jan 14, 2018)

jlg07 said:


> "‘Oh I want my husband and I want this one affair.’ It’s, ‘I want my husband and I want to taste all the parts of the menu!'”'
> This is disgusting and an absolute disrespect of the marriage and the husband. CLEARLY they are just using the husband for $$ and a house, NOT as a loving partner. I bet if her HUSBAND said/did that, it would be a war.


It is that type of thinking (from the article) that makes me wonder, why get married? Why take those vows? 

If one places a high value on sexual exploration, then it is their responsibility to choose whether or not a partner values that also, BEFORE going down the aisle.

Sounds typical of the 'have your cake and eat it too' crowd...


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Young at Heart said:


> Personally, I am very pro marriage (married over 47 years to my wife). I did come very close to divorcing her a couple of times. I don't think she has ever had an affair, as she is pretty Low (sexual) Desire.


I am not saying your wife is or is not having an affair. 

But one thing that almost every BH that has ever posted here has said was, "my wife would never cheat. She doesn't even like sex/has low desire/has no libido/never wants sex etc etc etc"

They are then gobsmacked when they find out that their WW is in fact hornier than a three-balled billy goat and have been having lots of hot, nasty, porno sex ----just not with them.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I agree that a lot of cheating goes on, more than is realized and far more than is ever found out.

I'm actually surprised it isn't discovered more often as it is sometimes very blatant and bold.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Diana7 said:


> (1)If it's undiscovered then how can the writer of the article possibly know that it has happened to make that assumption?
> 
> (2)I think that some will try and justify cheating by making out its very common therefore they aren't that bad(apparently).
> 
> (3)I think that cheating basically comes down to lack of character and integrity, and downright selfishness.


(1) She did research and interviews
(2) I am sure just about all cheaters try to justify their actions in one way or another. 
(3) While I agree, the list probably includes entitlement, revenge, no understanding that actions have consequences, no commitment to their vows or marriage, etc.

I really do think that a lot of cheating is not discovered. I also believe that a lot of people who cheat want to be caught. It is a way of ending a marriage with out stepping up to confront their partner. I always find the comment that they were just doing something innocent and "then one thing lead to another" to be comical in a tragic sense.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

The second two reasons given are ridiculous and those women should be shot. But I'll tell you why I identify with the first reasons given:



Young at Heart said:


> Personally, I am very pro marriage (married over 47 years to my wife). I did come very close to divorcing her a couple of times. I don't think she has ever had an affair, as she is pretty Low (sexual) Desire. Marriage should be about commitment and working through difficult issues.


That's why. I think you should listen to what oldshirt is saying. Really and truly, nobody has any business being so confident and trusting of their spouse.

But I can understand the first one because I was young and inexperienced when I married the first time. I didn't know how I could be pleased. It's not something women automatically know about until they ARE pleased. Until we experience the pleasure of sex and orgasm and how those are achieved, we don't know how they can be achieved. We only know that we're not pleased. We only know there is something lacking. My husband was also young and inexperienced, so, although he tried, he had no idea what to do to please me. He knew nothing of the skills and techniques that were required. Like I said, I didn't know either, so I couldn't help him. But there was no way I was going to live the rest of my life like that. Many women do because they don't know there is more to sex than they are getting. Many women end up feeling sex is just for the man's pleasure. Whatever their reasons, they stay. But being low drive and never or seldom wanting sex is no reason to think that's really how she is so she would never cheat. Or rather it's no reason to think that's how she would be if she experienced something different than has always had with her husband. Some men think that just because he penetrates and humps that she is enjoying just like he enjoys it. But it doesn't work that at all. Sex is very different for women, and I know that once women experienced what is for them really good sex, then they aren't low drive anymore. I know this because lots and lots of divorced women have said it. Including me. Well actually, I was never low drive. I was just unsatisfied. And that's what their experience has been too.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Young at Heart said:


> (1) She did research and interviews
> (2) I am sure just about all cheaters try to justify their actions in one way or another.
> (3) While I agree, the list probably includes entitlement, revenge, no understanding that actions have consequences, no commitment to their vows or marriage, etc.
> 
> I really do think that a lot of cheating is not discovered. I also believe that a lot of people who cheat want to be caught. It is a way of ending a marriage with out stepping up to confront their partner. I always find the comment that they were just doing something innocent and "then one thing lead to another" to be comical in a tragic sense.


I believe many undiscovered cheaters did not keep cheating either and committed themselves to their marriages.

I'm definitely for disclosure and honesty in marriage but I think many learn a painful lesson about themselves and change for the better afterwards.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

So women cheat for the same reasons men cheat.

Whoulda thunk it?

Plenty of cheating men are happy with their life and just want more strange.

Some people just aren't suited to monogamy. Unfortunately these people lie about it and get married anyway.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

I had to run out and didn't have time to proof my post, so sorry about the typos and left out words. I also didn't mean to suggest that first excuse is acceptable reason for cheating. I was empathizing with the sentiment that inexperienced women often get married without that kind of consideration or discussion and think sexual enjoyment will work itself out. It's also the reason some men, as oldshirt pointed out, feel their wife cheated so she obviously wasn't low drive after all and just didn't want sex with him. I think that's a rather self-pity thing to say, but I can understand guys feeling that way. What they often don't know is they needed to get themselves some skills. I never told my husband no, and I didn't cheat on him either. It wasn't that I didn't want to have sex with him. It was that sex with him was unfulfilling for me. So my choices were to stay and eventually become bored (and seemingly low drive) or to expand my horizons, so the latter was the best choice for me. I wasn't willing to accept that sexual enjoyment was only for men and my purpose was to serve as his appliance. Had that been my eventual discovery and I'd not found fulfillment with subsequent boyfriends, I think I would have decided that sex was something I was never going to do again because I found that too unfair and demeaning a prospect to continue participating. No way would I allow that to be the purpose of my birth and my body to be used in that fashion. But there are many women who accept that as their fate so they 'let him do his business' so to speak, but they really don't want to have to.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

StarFires said:


> I had to run out and didn't have time to proof my post, so sorry about the typos and left out words. I also didn't mean to suggest that first excuse is acceptable reason for cheating. I was empathizing with the sentiment that inexperienced women often get married without that kind of consideration or discussion and think sexual enjoyment will work itself out. It's also the reason some men, as oldshirt pointed out, feel their wife cheated so she obviously wasn't low drive after all and just didn't want sex with him. I think that's a rather self-pity thing to say, but I can understand guys feeling that way. What they often don't know is they needed to get themselves some skills. I never told my husband no, and I didn't cheat on him either. It wasn't that I didn't want to have sex with him. It was that sex with him was unfulfilling for me. So my choices were to stay and eventually become bored (and seemingly low drive) or to expand my horizons, so the latter was the best choice for me. I wasn't willing to accept that sexual enjoyment was only for men and my purpose was to serve as his appliance. Had that been my eventual discovery and I'd not found fulfillment with subsequent boyfriends, I think I would have decided that sex was something I was never going to do again because I found that too unfair and demeaning a prospect to continue participating. No way would I allow that to be the purpose of my birth and my body to be used in that fashion. But there are many women who accept that as their fate so they 'let him do his business' so to speak, but they really don't want to have to.



Great post. I'd also add that traditionally women haven't been raised to really consider what they're attracted to like men are. We're supposed to seek out good husbands and providers and lack of attraction is thought to be a stupid reason to turn away a great guy.

Think of this....a guy who passed up a great woman he wasn't attracted to wouldn't get much grief because attraction is understood to be important for men. But think about what kind of grief a woman would get for turning away a great guy... especially if he's successful...because she wasn't attracted.

Her family would smack her upside the head and tell her to fake it. 

Then you factor in the fact that a lot of men can't tell whether a woman is genuinely attracted to him or just participates and fakes.

In defense of guys it's difficult to tell and dishonest on the women's part, but that's how we're raised. And if the women really doesn't know what she wants she isn't being intentionally dishonest. 

That's changing, but like all social change it's slow.

So a woman marries a great guy and eventually realizes he doesn't do it for her.

It's unfair to everyone.

And yes, many men just don't know what they're doing. I'm always a bit suspicious when I see men on TAM claiming that their wife has all these organisms but only gets busy twice a year. 

When I'm having great sex I want more.....but maybe that's just me.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> If it's undiscovered then how can the writer of the article possibly know that it has happened to make that assumption?


 In the context of the article "Undiscovered" just refers to the spouse finding out. Interviews or polls would document this.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

lifeistooshort said:


> Great post. I'd also add that traditionally women haven't been raised to really consider what they're attracted to like men are. We're supposed to seek out good husbands and providers and lack of attraction is thought to be a stupid reason to turn away a great guy.
> 
> Think of this....a guy who passed up a great woman he wasn't attracted to wouldn't get much grief because attraction is understood to be important for men. But think about what kind of grief a woman would get for turning away a great guy... especially if he's successful...because she wasn't attracted.
> 
> ...


OMG You cracked me up! Yes, I always wonder about those boasts too. Nope, it's not just you. I've said it to several guys here, "Just like sex is good to you and you want more, a woman also wants more of what feels good." I'm not sure they and the ones who feel like "she just didn't want sex with me" are really getting it.

I never lost my sex drive, but I can't discount that it does happen to some women. I've read that it causes them embarrassment and they feel ashamed like there's something wrong with them but they don't know what it is. What makes me curious about it is women aren't always raring to go. Many times, I have had sex because he wanted to. I don't say no even when I'm not in the mood, and I always enjoy it when it happens. So, I can't help wondering exactly what does losing her sex drive or being "low drive" really mean. Is it that she can't enjoy it anymore (whereas she did before)? Is it that she never enjoyed it? Is it that she doesn't get horny anymore? I'm not sure the latter would cause me much concern so long as I'm still able to enjoy it. I can't imagine a woman actually becoming numb, so I don't know what gives.

You're surprising me though. Yeah, the mentality for women used to be "get married" period. They had to for security since, for most of centuries past, men didn't allow women to earn a living. I feel for those women when I think about it or watch old movies. But I would have thought that was long in the past, at least as far as the western world (particularly the US). You're saying it's still the sentiment for some. That is fairly shocking to me.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

Starfires,
just a question -- knowing that your husband was just a clueless as you about sex, did you ever think to TELL him what felt good or didn't? Did you two NOT explore to find out what you both liked?

This isn't just the man's fault -- if you don't tell him, how would he know? Once he got more experienced and learned to see how your responded to things, it would have even been better (and this is vice versa for women as well).

For those who are inexperienced, if a guy doesn't tell his partner (or the woman her's) what they like/don't like, how would that EVER be a great sexual experience and get better?
That is a fault of communication, not "skills". IF you do communicate and it DOESN'T get better, then that is a completely different story.

EDT: BTW, I hope this didn't come across as a man vs. woman thing. NOT my intention.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I think it could be accurate in many cases. 

Certainly when I am tempted it is entirely because of the lack of good sex in my married life. For one female friend who admitted to me that she cheated, it was for exactly that reason as well - she loved her husband, but he rarely wanted sex and when he did, it was extremely boring, just for him sex. She stayed married because they had a kid.



Young at Heart said:


> I read, what I consider to be an interesting and informative article today. It claims that cheating is much more common and undiscovered than generally though.
> 
> What I found most interesting were some of the insights into why people, especially women cheat.
> 
> ...


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

What you say is true, but it also works in both directions. 

Sometimes women who were in your situation decide to cheat if due to children etc, they feel that they can't leave. They don't want to live their lives as sex objects.

Just as there are men who are terrible lovers, there are women who are as well - who feel that their part of sex is to just lie there, and put up with sex until the get pregnant. 

I have no idea if there are more male or female terrible lovers, but both exist.




StarFires said:


> I had to run out and didn't have time to proof my post, so sorry about the typos and left out words. I also didn't mean to suggest that first excuse is acceptable reason for cheating. I was empathizing with the sentiment that inexperienced women often get married without that kind of consideration or discussion and think sexual enjoyment will work itself out. It's also the reason some men, as oldshirt pointed out, feel their wife cheated so she obviously wasn't low drive after all and just didn't want sex with him. I think that's a rather self-pity thing to say, but I can understand guys feeling that way. What they often don't know is they needed to get themselves some skills. I never told my husband no, and I didn't cheat on him either. It wasn't that I didn't want to have sex with him. It was that sex with him was unfulfilling for me. So my choices were to stay and eventually become bored (and seemingly low drive) or to expand my horizons, so the latter was the best choice for me. I wasn't willing to accept that sexual enjoyment was only for men and my purpose was to serve as his appliance. Had that been my eventual discovery and I'd not found fulfillment with subsequent boyfriends, I think I would have decided that sex was something I was never going to do again because I found that too unfair and demeaning a prospect to continue participating. No way would I allow that to be the purpose of my birth and my body to be used in that fashion. But there are many women who accept that as their fate so they 'let him do his business' so to speak, but they really don't want to have to.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

uhtred said:


> What you say is true, but it also works in both directions.
> 
> Sometimes women who were in your situation decide to cheat if due to children etc, they feel that they can't leave. They don't want to live their lives as sex objects.
> 
> ...


That may be true, but I have to say your point is more defensive than relevant to the subject matter since the subject wasn't about men cheating or why men cheat. But to respond, I'd say that any woman who just lies there isn't being moved, if you get my drift, which also happens to be directly related to the subject and the related discussion that emerged. To say, "who feel that their part of sex is to just lie there, and put up with sex until the get pregnant" means you don't understand the discussion. You only became defensive about it.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

lifeistooshort said:


> I'm always a bit suspicious when I see men on TAM claiming that their wife has all these organisms but only gets busy twice a year.
> 
> When I'm having great sex I want more.....but maybe that's just me.


I get your point but I don't think that actual orgasms are the end-all/be-all for a great sex life or the life-blood of a satisfying relationship. 

By using that logic then every guy would think every woman was a great lover and every guy would be satisfied with every relationship and never cheat because most guys will usually have an orgasm pretty much every time they have sex. 

But that is obviously not the case as men do find some women to be lousy lover (even though the men have orgasms when they've had sex with them) men do end relationships because the woman is lousy in bed. And men have cheated on their partners to get better sex elsewhere. 

So orgasm in and of itself is not the sole defining factor. 

Orgasm is reflex and if the right stimulation is provided, it will occur. 

Women have had orgasms while being brutally raped. Under age girls have had orgasms while being molested. Women have had orgasms while being used as sperm recepticles by their drunk, abusive husbands that they can't stand. 

So while I do get your point that if someone is chronically unsatisfied and their partner is unable or unwilling to give them orgasms that their likelihood of being dissatisfied and seeking it elsewhere is understandably greater - it is not the defining factor of a satisfying and good sex life. 

Both men and women can and do have unsatisfactory sex lives and relationships while still having orgasms.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

jlg07 said:


> Starfires,
> just a question -- knowing that your husband was just a clueless as you about sex, did you ever think to TELL him what felt good or didn't? Did you two NOT explore to find out what you both liked?
> 
> This isn't just the man's fault -- if you don't tell him, how would he know? Once he got more experienced and learned to see how your responded to things, it would have even been better (and this is vice versa for women as well).
> ...


No, jlg07, it didn't come across as a man vs woman thing.

I have delved more in depth into this subject on several other threads - as I did here - that warranted it and provided the opportunity, but this thread didn't, so I kept my responses simpler instead of writing my usual novels lol.

Yes, we explored, but it's not as simple as it seems to you because women's bodies are so much more complex than men's bodies. If two unknowledgeable and inexperienced people don't know any more than the obvious differences or how to address the differences, then even something that feels good can't necessarily be parlayed into enduring pleasure that amounts to anything for her. It might, but there's nothing certain because they are both clueless. Forgive me for pointing it out, but it kind of seems like the reason that you ask. If you and your wife/girlfriend are both relatively inexperienced, it might not be a good idea for you to rely on her to aid you in pleasuring her. It's safe to accept that's just the way it goes. For example, I could tell my husband all day if something he was doing felt good. But where could we go from there? Was he to do THAT every time for the whole while? You penetrate and hump, and the friction from that feels good to you, but it normally isn't that simple for a woman because nothing in her body responds to friction. Do you know what she does respond to? If you don't, the answer is in the link with some other helpful information. So, I didn't know how or where to guide him and he didn't know what else to do. Exploring is not a guaranteed route to eureka. You have to know what you're looking for and the mechanisms/maneuvers that take you there in order to find it. That's the reason it is a matter of experience and skill much more so than communication. But it's no one's fault - not his and not mine, not yours and not hers. Only inexperience can be blamed.

Technique is also involved. I declare that man did try his best to please me, but he didn't know any techniques, and I sure didn't either. He was perfectly willing to perform oral sex, and often did, but that provided little pleasure because he didn't know what he was to accomplish or how to accomplish it. He was just down there doing something, which left me wishing he would stop, but I couldn't tell him that, and I couldn't tell him what to do or how to do it properly because I didn't know either. See where exploring got us? Due to that same kind of experience, there are women who say they don't like oral sex. They just don't know how much they would like it if oral sex were performed properly. If not done right, the sensations can range from mildly tolerable to incredibly annoying, none of which is pleasurable.

Another example is one time, we were having intercourse and reached a point where he was not fully penetrated. The feeling was incredible, and we both noticed my reaction. The next time we had sex, his attempt to repeat those same motions was to give me jackhammer sex. I wanted to tell him "If you don't stop, I will throw you off of me and send you careening out the window" but how could I say such a thing when his only effort was to please me? One thing neither of us knew was that he was pumping my G-spot that first time, which I found out years later. The other thing we didn't know was had he not stopped the first time, I would have exploded in orgasm like a shaken bottle of champagne. But who knew? We had no idea, so we weren't able to recreate the maneuver that felt so good to me, and the resulting attempt made me feel used and cheap. Do you see where knowledge and skill would have made much more reliable bedfellows? Similar to what I said above, there is a vast majority of women who think and say they can't have vaginal orgasms. Most of them just don't know that they can. They never had one, so they think they can't. If they knew their own body or was with an experienced man who knew how, they would have vaginal orgasms as often as they like, and they surely would like it very often. If my first husband and I weren't so clueless, I wouldn't have felt unfulfilled.

To add another dimension of complexity, sex is a very vulnerable activity for a woman. The younger and less experienced she is, the more vulnerable she feels, so women are often afraid to speak up. One reason we don't speak up is that we're afraid of hurting your feelings. Another reason is we don't want to feel like an experiment or guinea pig. It's a primal and innate need for a woman to feel she is in capable and confident hands. And that is what I needed. It's what most women need. It's when we're older and become more experienced and knowledgeable that we're able to express our needs and can do more guiding. But even then, we still need for the man to be capable, confident, and considerate. These days though (I wager I'm much older than you), with the invention of the internet, there's no excuse for a guy to not know how to please a woman, and no excuse for a woman to not be able to guide him although she just might still feel a little bit vulnerable and reluctant. Again, that's just the way it goes.

And speaking of more experienced and knowledgeable women, I experienced my first orgasm from oral sex with a guy who had been taught by an older woman. Likewise with my first vaginal (G-spot) orgasm (different guy). I have no idea how they did it because there's no way I could be with men so much younger than myself like these guys were.

But hip hip hooray for all the cougars of the world. I owe two of them a debt of gratitude. :yay:


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

StarFires said:


> No, jlg07, it didn't come across as a man vs woman thing.
> 
> I have delved more in depth into this subject on several other threads - as I did here - that warranted it and provided the opportunity, but this thread didn't, so I kept my responses simpler instead of writing my usual novels lol.
> 
> ...


Thanks for responding -- very interesting conversation and a bit eye opening for me that folks DON'T work together to figure this stuff out... No matter who I was with, if I couldn't TELL if something was working, I always asked. Why not? What did I have to lose at that point? I WANTED my partner to orgasm and feel good.

BTW, to bring this back to the original topic, NONE of the excuses are valid for cheating.


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## Bibi1031 (Sep 14, 2015)

ConanHub said:


> I agree that a lot of cheating goes on, more than is realized and far more than is ever found out.
> 
> I'm actually surprised it isn't discovered more often as it is sometimes very blatant and bold.


Denial by the cheated on partner has a lot to do with the "often very blatant and bold" part of your post.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> If it's undiscovered then how can the writer of the article possibly know that it has happened to make that assumption?


I absolutely believe that much more cheating goes on than gets discovered. 

Unfortunately, I've known MANY cheaters who acted like saints in front of their partners and their partners would have bet their life savings that they'd never been cheated on by their spouse - that's how sure they were of their partner's fidelity. Well, that's a bet they would have LOST if the truth ever came out.

I got to see yet another very blatant display of this myself, when my friend made a fake profile on a sex hookup site claiming to be married and looking for "action" because she suspected her husband was using the site. She made sure to have all the attributes she knew he liked best (blond hair, tattoos, etc. etc.) in her 'bait' profile. Then she sat back and waited.

She got over 1,000 replies in the course of just a month and a half - all from MARRIED men - who were looking for something 'extra' on the side. The messages all started to sound the same after awhile - "I've been married for a while, my sex life is boring/non-existent/not enough/nothing exciting anymore (etc. etc. etc.) and I'm looking for a new thrill and some excitement." That was the jist of 97% of the messages she got. Pretty much all of them promised they'd be discreet because they had as much to lose as our 'married' bait female did, so these guys were ALL about getting it on the down low.

The worst part is that these 1000+ men were all from a radius of no more than 40 or 50 miles from our small town. This wasn't a national ad, and it wasn't placed in a big city. It was *local*. And that was only ONE venue these guys were using - there are a million more ways to hit on women. So that basically means that there are at least 1000 married guys within a 50 mile radius who are more than ready to go get themselves some excitement on the side.

So I completely and totally agree with the author that a whole LOT of crap goes on that never gets caught. 

Quote:
_“They don’t want to leave their husband, they love their husband, they’ve got a great life, but what they really want is a variety in their sexual partners,” she says. “It’s not just, ‘Oh I want my husband and I want this one affair.’ It’s, ‘I want my husband and I want to taste all the parts of the menu!'”_

I believe the above quote is true for a lot of men, but for the life of me, I just can't imagine that's it's just as true for the same amount of women.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Holy ****! @She'sStillGotIt !!!

That is only the response one woman generated and not even the full spectrum!!!!

I think women and men cheat at pretty close to the same rate but it looks like men are probably far more aggressive about it at least. I can't picture women going that aggressively at cheating, in that many numbers.

I definitely think men are ahead in aggressively seeking to behave like morons!

At least in your neck of the woods!!!


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> The worst part is that these 1000+ men were all from a radius of no more than 40 or 50 miles from our small town.


Wow. That's so astonishing and disheartening.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> Holy ****! @She'sStillGotIt !!!
> 
> 
> I think women and men cheat at pretty close to the same rate but it looks like men are probably far more aggressive about it at least. I can't picture women going that aggressively at cheating, in that many numbers.
> ...


That's because men have to be proactive and initiative if they want to get any extra.

All women typically have to do is not smell bad and not have any visable draining sores. 

If a woman wants to score some extra all she has to do is not run away.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Not defensive. The article may have been about why women cheat, but women are *people* and I think this is a reason that *people* cheat, both men and women. 

I think you are missing the point that some people, both men and women, are not interested in sex, and / or don't enjoy sex - and that that is not necessarily their partner's fault. Some people cannot be "moved", despite having regular O's during what they think of as sex. 



StarFires said:


> That may be true, but I have to say your point is more defensive than relevant to the subject matter since the subject wasn't about men cheating or why men cheat. But to respond, I'd say that any woman who just lies there isn't being moved, if you get my drift, which also happens to be directly related to the subject and the related discussion that emerged. To say, "who feel that their part of sex is to just lie there, and put up with sex until the get pregnant" means you don't understand the discussion. You only became defensive about it.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

That part of the article in the first post that caught my eye was the first note about WWs discussing their sexual desires and needs with their AP but not their BH.

That has been my experience and observation as well.

There was even a thread awhile back where a link to a video by Dan Savage was shown where Mr Savage discusses that gay/lesbian men and some have open discussions on sexual needs and expectations but traditional, monogamous couples rely on countless assumptions and presumptions. 

This has also been my experience in the swinging community.

I may post a seperate thread on this topic so as not to thread jack, but I do believe that people who practice some form of alternative lifestyle or are somehow "different" from the norm, do have much higher level of communication about sex than traditional couples. 

Should perhaps traditional couples take some lessons from the alternative lifestyle folks on addressing their sexual desires, preferences and needs???


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Sometimes people won't discuss their desires / interests due to a strong negative reaction to earlier discussions. One harsh rejection can just shut down that sort of conversation forever.



oldshirt said:


> That part of the article in the first post that caught my eye was the first note about WWs discussing their sexual desires and needs with their AP but not their BH.
> 
> That has been my experience and observation as well.
> 
> ...


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

uhtred said:


> Sometimes people won't discuss their desires / interests due to a strong negative reaction to earlier discussions. One harsh rejection can just shut down that sort of conversation forever.


True dat.


While Gottman wasn't referring to sex specifically, he refers to people becoming defensive and counterattacking when their partner tries to discuss relationship issues as one of the Four Horsemen of predicting the demise of a marriage.

I think that a defensive and negative response when a partner wants to discuss sexual wants and needs will also be a bad omen of a dying sex life as well.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

uhtred said:


> Sometimes people won't discuss their desires / interests due to a strong negative reaction to earlier discussions. One harsh rejection can just shut down that sort of conversation forever.


Yeah and THAT is just sad. They are denying their partner for WHAT? They are denying themselves just as much if not more. I wish people would wake up and stop being so stuck up their own ass.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> All women typically have to do is not smell bad and not have any visable draining sores.


There are STILL many, many men who would hit that. :rofl:

I've often said that most men would screw a hole in a picket fence if they were sure no one was looking and they didn't get splinters. I stand by that statement.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> There are STILL many, many men who would hit that. :rofl:
> 
> I've often said that most men would screw a hole in a picket fence if they were sure no one was looking and they didn't get splinters. I stand by that statement.


True. 

I was tying to give the male species at least some credit though.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Not sure what's new about this. People have affairs because they are selfish and they want to. Also lots of times it's easier to just run away from real problems in the marriage then confront them, and even end the marriage if one has to. 

Also, affairs are fun. At least in the beginning when you are not getting caught, if you can force yourself to forget what you are doing.

Hopefully you married someone who is invested in the marriage as you are and you can work things out together.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

StarFires said:


> No, jlg07, it didn't come across as a man vs woman thing.
> 
> I have delved more in depth into this subject on several other threads - as I did here - that warranted it and provided the opportunity, but this thread didn't, so I kept my responses simpler instead of writing my usual novels lol.
> 
> ...


This makes is sound like the entirely of your orgasm depended completely on the luck that you meet the right guy who knew the right technique to get you there? It seems like you completely removed all your agency in the process. I mean did you masturbate to learn your body?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

The posts by @StarFires have me wondering if I should look up my first couple if girlfriends from my youth and see if I can schedule a rematch in bed.

Now that it's 30 years later and I have been with more women and picked up more experience and skillz, I may be able to take care of business better and they'll take me back.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> The posts by @StarFires have me wondering if I should look up my first couple if girlfriends from my youth and see if I can schedule a rematch in bed.
> 
> Now that it's 30 years later and I have been with more women and picked up more experience and skillz, I may be able to take care of business better and they'll take me back.


Sooo funny, Oldshirt. But guess what? Some guys never learn. So what about you? lol

I realize I've stated "experienced" and "more experienced" but that's only in relation to knowledge, skillz (I like that spelling thx), and giving a darn. I've been with 3 incredibly awful guys so bad that they had no idea women were supposed to enjoy sex also. They thought it was for their pleasure alone. And I mean "wham-bam-thankyou-ma'am and it was all over. Two of them were in their 30s, one of which had been married and I knew about several previous girlfriends. The third one was in his 50s (I was in my 30s), whom I'd known all my life and had socialized with him and his former wife and several of his previous girlfriends, had them over for dinner, went out to dinner with, traveled around the country with, attended theater with, etc. One of them was my boss and I introduced them to each other (which ended my matchmaking days lol). They were all beautiful, educated, and successful women. He had no clue that women orgasm too. So go figure. I don't know how these guys got past all those previous women, but I let them get past me too and never said one word. As I've said, women often times don't speak up. And some guys couldn't care less if a woman has needs or not.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

StarFires said:


> Sooo funny, Oldshirt. But guess what? Some guys never learn. So what about you? lol
> 
> I realize I've stated "experienced" and "more experienced" but that's only in relation to knowledge, skillz (I like that spelling thx), and giving a darn. I've been with 3 incredibly awful guys so bad that they had no idea women were supposed to enjoy sex also. They thought it was for their pleasure alone. And I mean "wham-bam-thankyou-ma'am and it was all over. Two of them were in their 30s, one of which had been married and I knew about several previous girlfriends. The third one was in his 50s (I was in my 30s), whom I'd known all my life and had socialized with him and his former wife and several of his previous girlfriends, had them over for dinner, went out to dinner with, traveled around the country with, attended theater with, etc. One of them was my boss and I introduced them to each other (which ended my matchmaking days lol). They were all beautiful, educated, and successful women. He had no clue that women orgasm too. So go figure. I don't know how these guys got past all those previous women, but I let them get past me too and never said one word. As I've said, women often times don't speak up. And some guys couldn't care less if a woman has needs or not.


Even at a young age, I was very concerned with pleasing my GFs and was never Slam-Bam and never about only me getting off. I really tried. 

Both GFs that I referenced above were girls that truly cared for and wanted to be with. I dated each of them approx a year and a half (not at the same time). 

We had active and seemingly mutually enjoyable sex lives. But despite my efforts, I don't think I ever got either to orgasm. I may have been eager, I may have been conscientious, and I may have gave it sincere effort, but I obviously didn't have the skillz. 

We had good relationships and then one day each of them dumped me, never to return. 

I assume that much of what you have stated is what took place - each of them encountered some guy that was able to flip the Magic Switch and 'Youngshirt' got his walking papers the next day. 

Both were virgins when we got together and I think you are correct that they did not themselves know what they needed to orgasm and when I wasn't able to take care of business, the Doomsday Clock on our relationship started clicking. 

Each of them was 19 years old at the time and each dumped me and hit the party circuit. Each of them has now been married 30 years so both are now assumably also more experienced and skilled and better able to communicate wants and needs. 

So a part of me is somewhat sincere and serious. If I were to show back up on the scene with 30+ years of experience and dozens and dozens and dozens of women that I have been with over the years and much bigger and better stocked toolbox now, I can't help but wonder if it would be a different story if we were to hook up today.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

If I only knew then what I know now. A very apropos adage, as we age.

I see more and more of how fortunate my early sex life was, as in having many older women between 25 and 35 as many repeats partners when I was 16 to 24. They weren't shy about telling me what was better for them.

Because I wasn't hung up on many sexual concepts everything just seemed something to roll with, I didn't worry about things.

One take away was that women can and do very much like and enjoy good sex just as much as a HD man, and that's ok. 

Kind of normal in my mind.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Although many will try their damndest to embrace and to rationalize it, "having one's cake and eating it too" is simply a self-serving rationale that flies in the face of what a committed marriage is supposed to really be all about!*


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> Even at a young age, I was very concerned with pleasing my GFs and was never Slam-Bam and never about only me getting off. I really tried.
> 
> Both GFs that I referenced above were girls that truly cared for and wanted to be with. I dated each of them approx a year and a half (not at the same time).
> 
> ...


Dozens and dozens and dozens? :surprise:
LOL You go boy!

But don't feel bad, no regrets. We all have our lessons to learn though it would be nice if we got do-overs in life. I have my history of fails too. I don't doubt you know how blowjobs and teeth CAN be an uncomfortable combination. :grin2:



Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> If I only knew then what I know now. A very apropos adage, as we age.
> 
> I see more and more of how fortunate my early sex life was, as in having many older women between 25 and 35 as many repeats partners when I was 16 to 24. They weren't shy about telling me what was better for them.
> 
> Because I wasn't hung up on many sexual concepts everything just seemed something to roll with, I didn't worry about things.


Weren't you the lucky one! As I'm sure is your wife.



Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> One take away was that women can and do very much like and enjoy good sex just as much as a HD man, and that's ok.
> 
> Kind of normal in my mind.


Yep, normal to me too.


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## Spoons027 (Jun 19, 2017)

That’s a little depressing. 

Perhaps one partner for life really is just too unrealistic and wanting fidelity from that one person is outdated.

I am old-fashioned though.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I was a nerd, so I read and studied carefully before doing experiments. 





Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> If I only knew then what I know now. A very apropos adage, as we age.
> 
> I see more and more of how fortunate my early sex life was, as in having many older women between 25 and 35 as many repeats partners when I was 16 to 24. They weren't shy about telling me what was better for them.
> 
> ...


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Now that y'all are mentioning it, I was with a few older and more experienced women in my early 20s and with a number of married women seeking side-action by my mid and upper 20s. 

Maybe y'all are on to something. 

While I don't want to give the impression they provided any kind classroom lessons or actual clinical instruction or anything, they were open and communicative about what they liked and didn't like.

Maybe getting down with older and more experienced women is kind of an important part of a young man's sexual development.


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