# Marriage and diagnosing BPD



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I'm putting this the GRD forum abuse it's about BPD diagnosis as related to marriage.

People come here often saying that their spouse has BPD but won't take meds, go to therapy, etc. In further discussion it turns out that the spouse had one or two meetings with a therapist, if even a psychiatrist, who then said they had BPD.

(I'm not talking about the many cases where the person read about BPD on the internet and so has no diagnosed their own spouse with BPD. This also seems to be common.)

Doesn't it take more than one or two visits with a psychiatrist to determine something like BPD?

I have a nephew who was diagnosed as schizophrenic. He has all out psychotic episodes. He spent 2 months locked in a psych ward while the docs worked on diagnosing him. It took that long.

Then about a year later, his doc said that she was not sure that he's schizophrenic. She was now thinking that he is bi-polar with psychotic episodes (not uncommon apparently).

I also know that sometimes other things can make a non-BPD person look like that's what they have in the short term.

For example a person who is not getting good sleep due to things like insomnia, sleep apnea (obstructive or central), worry, life's circumstances can start exhibiting all kinds of symptoms of mental issues.

What was explained to me is that the brain only produces dopamine, serotonin and noradrenaline when we are in deep sleep. When a person does not sleep well their brain is not producing enough of these chemicals. So they will end up with symptoms of all kinds of things... depression, BPD, etc. But the real problem is their sleep disorder. Fix that and it fixes the symptoms that look like mental illness.

So what say you?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I think the reason we hear so much about BPD on TAM is that it draws immediate sympathy for the man. There really seems to be a lot of sympathy for men who are perceived to be suffering, helpless victims of women on TAM, BPD or otherwise.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

I'm always skeptical when a man posts that his wife is BPD without any official diagnosis. They've just come to that conclusion from reading on the internet.

I was wondering why women hardly ever post that their husband's have BPD but then I realized that they usually go for the narcissistic angle.


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

Too busy diagnosing their husband a porn addict cause they saw porn on computer.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I agree with you Ele. It's not fair. It's not right. All you can do is try to make folks aware of these things and then hope they step back and think, then do the right thing and let a doctor do their work.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

Because it fits very nicely into the preconceived notion that indeed most women are unreasonable and likely mentally ill. It comes up in nearly any thread wherein a male poster makes his wife seem like an unholy terror - at some point, someone will recommend "she's obviously BPD." 

Because it is far, far easier to label someone hopeless and mentally ill than imagine that you had anything to do with how they feel or act. It lets you off the hook. You can hear what you want to - yes, she's crazy. It's not your fault brother. 

And then we can start all of "The Game Has Changed" threads about how hopeless, crazy, conceited, fat, and lazy that modern women are. So just import one from a place where all the women aren't ruined yet!


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Starstarfish said:


> Because it fits very nicely into the preconceived notion that indeed most women are unreasonable and likely mentally ill. It comes up in nearly any thread wherein a male poster makes his wife seem like an unholy terror - at some point, someone will recommend "she's obviously BPD."
> 
> Because it is far, far easier to label someone hopeless and mentally ill than imagine that you had anything to do with how they feel or act. It lets you off the hook. You can hear what you want to - yes, she's crazy. It's not your fault brother.
> 
> And then we can start all of "The Game Has Changed" threads about how hopeless, crazy, conceited, fat, and lazy that modern women are. So just import one from a place where all the women aren't ruined yet!


Yea, threads like that are so common on TAM. It really gets tiresome. Then there is the do women love as much as men thread.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Starstarfish said:


> Because it fits very nicely into the preconceived notion that indeed most women are unreasonable and likely mentally ill. It comes up in nearly any thread wherein a male poster makes his wife seem like an unholy terror - at some point, someone will recommend "she's obviously BPD."
> 
> *Because it is far, far easier to label someone hopeless and mentally ill than imagine that you had anything to do with how they feel or act. It lets you off the hook. You can hear what you want to - yes, she's crazy. It's not your fault brother. *
> 
> And then we can start all of "The Game Has Changed" threads about how hopeless, crazy, conceited, fat, and lazy that modern women are. So just import one from a place where all the women aren't ruined yet!


:iagree:


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I've seen threads by women on here who do the same thing. They start out that their husband is BPD or NPD. And after talking for a while, they just read about it on the internet. Drives me nuts.

Getting diagnosed is a serious and time-consuming process. Two visits is not enough. It's enough to know that there is an issue but not enough to know definitively what the issue is.

Generally when I see someone come here with THE DIAGNOSIS, the point is that they are just a wonderful, loving person but their spouse is a nuts. 

Now that might be the case. But I doubt that it usually is.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

> Because it is far, far easier to label someone hopeless and mentally ill than imagine that you had anything to do with how they feel or act. It lets you off the hook. You can hear what you want to - yes, she's crazy. It's not your fault brother.


Yes, I'm thinking of one particular poster.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

I was diagnosed 10yrs ago, after 1 visit. I did an intake with a psychologist, and took the MMPI and the MMPI2. It took a while to get the results, maybe a week? Someone who is trained in personality disorders is going to be quite intuitive to the characteristics shown.

The latest stats I found were that 2% of the population has BPD at the full blown level. It is primarily diagnosed in women as women seem to be more likely to seek out help.


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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

A very controversial subject, Ele...


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

So can BPD develop later in life? I always though it stems from childhood. Can it be dormant and then just be released at a later age? Like 40ish? Some posters around here make out like it just happened to their wives in mid life.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Starstarfish said:


> Because it fits very nicely into the preconceived notion that indeed most women are unreasonable and likely mentally ill. It comes up in nearly any thread wherein a male poster makes his wife seem like an unholy terror - at some point, someone will recommend "she's obviously BPD."
> 
> Because it is far, far easier to label someone hopeless and mentally ill than imagine that you had anything to do with how they feel or act. It lets you off the hook. You can hear what you want to - yes, she's crazy. It's not your fault brother.
> 
> And then we can start all of "The Game Has Changed" threads about how hopeless, crazy, conceited, fat, and lazy that modern women are. So just import one from a place where all the women aren't ruined yet!


:iagree:
We only ever hear 1 side and I've seen cases where the woman gets crazier as the thread (and supporters) goes on. Someone may start with a pretty mild disagreement that splits the responders, then he throws in more crazy, and more crazy until it couldn't possibility he him, she's BDP. All of a sudden NOTHING she says is rational or valid and he's always right.

To me, a lot of BDP wives sound like pissed off WAWs or women with depression (which can also result in anger, lack of sex drive, etc) The only way to tell the difference would be a lot of time with a qualified Dr.


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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

I think coming to a marriage forum and discussing a spouse's proven mental illness without their knowledge or approval is dispicable. 

It's not trying to gain understanding of the illness or productive ways a spouse can help manage a diagnosed disorder. It's trying to gain sympathy from a target audience that may or may not have the capability to help.

I feel it's intrusive and completely undermines the whole recovery process.

So, If a spouse is TRUELY diagnosed with Bi-Polor Disorder or Borderline Personality Disorder, stick to the widely accepted version of coping skills from a medical practitioner.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

soccermom2three said:


> So can BPD develop later in life? I always though it stems from childhood. Can it be dormant and then just be released at a later age? Like 40ish? Some posters around here make out like it just happened to their wives in mid life.


Not that I am aware of. I did find this interesting however..._The current study examined potential cohort effects of individual DSM BPD criteria in a primarily psychiatric sample. For each criterion, we compared age effects across three groups: those diagnosed with BPD, those diagnosed with another personality disorder (OPD), and those that do not meet criteria for a personality disorder (NoPD) in three age groups: 20–30, 31–40, and 41–50 years. Additionally, this study examined the effect of age and personality disorder (PD) group on symptoms of depression and anxiety. These findings inform our understanding of the relative importance of each BPD criterion and how the disorder may manifest differentially across the adult lifespan, providing clues about the trajectory of the disorder over 30 years of adult development._

Also, from my understanding, BPD'ers tend to mellow out around 40ish. Not enough to be "normal," but the symptoms are not as severe.

I was diagnosed at age 34. Looking back, I know without a doubt I displayed the signs of it in my late teens, early twenties.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

Revamped said:


> I think coming to a marriage forum and discussing a spouse's proven mental illness without their knowledge or approval is dispicable.
> 
> It's not trying to gain understanding of the illness or productive ways a spouse can help manage a diagnosed disorder. It's trying to gain sympathy from a target audience that may or may not have the capability to help.
> 
> ...


I kinda think talking smack about a person's LD spouse is a bit despicable as well, to each their own.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I agree that it seems a lot if amateur husbands are diagnosing their wives with BPD to possibly explain away their wives lack of sexual desire for them and to justify, in some cases, them stepping out or their own laziness for not working on themselves to be a more effective husband.

As a man, I get a little disgusted by the whining and blaming. I have studied and worked and applied myself seriously to working with my wife and our sexuality. I have good results to show for it.

This is probably my arrogance talking but I would bet my grandfather's ancient rifle that I could get many of these so called BPD wives very interested in sex, romance and life if I could possess their husbands for a few months.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

I agree quite a bit with ConanHub. It's the old "if the only tool you have is a hammer, then every problem looks like a nail." People turn to the Internet to become Insta-docs who can make life-altering diagnoses, when the truth might just be "we're incompatible" or "I don't know how to get what I want" (so I'll blame something else.)

Sometimes, though, it might be the closest that a person can get to understanding their situation. And occasionally their armchair diagnosis is right on the money. At least, as "on the money" as any psychiatrist or psychologist can offer, and maybe more accurate. 

Can BPD be diagnosed in just a couple visits by a pro? To *that* question I'll say that psychiatric conditions can be tentatively diagnosed and indeed, must be in order to bill insurance. The notes where I used to work were written as a "rule out (condition)" as the diagnosis, and I have no idea how things have changed in the last two decades since I worked in mental health, but I'm guessing that the months and changes to diagnoses are not too changed. We have imperfect understandings of illnesses that have some symptoms that can be due to other conditions, and so on.


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## CantePe (Oct 5, 2011)

The posts you talk about are showing signs of what another pd forum says is called FLEAS.

Its a kind of psychological taking on of the symptoms of the pd spouse by the non-pd spouse. Its like when an abusive partner keeps screaming the other person sucks and does it long enough where that other person starts believing but fleas manifests in behaviours...almost mimicking the pd behaviours.

I'm not saying all the posts are showing signs of "fleas" but some do. Good example is some of the later escalation posts where behaviour worsens.

Fleas is an interesting and very plausible concept in my opinion.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

This is a good thread. I'll just read this for the info, but I see a lot of diagnosing on tam which is wrong. A few posters do this consistenly in every thread they participate in. Not every spouse who disagrees is mentally ill.


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## Akinaura (Dec 6, 2011)

It took me YEARS to come to the diagnoses I have. And that was after multiple visits, multiple doctors, multiple tests. Not some two visit show.

I was just "venting" to the hubby about how common it is on this website for a wife to either be labeled "bpd" from the OP or within a few posts, a member will post up "that sounds like bpd, here, take a look at the symptoms". I really do believe that a lot of it comes down to two different communication styles going on in the marriage.

If "bpd" only occurs in 2% of the population, why is it like close to 75% or more wives here being called it? I can't accept that this forum is a "bat signal" for all the bpd sufferers in the world to be drawn to.

Heck, if you had asked my husband a few years ago "Hey, does your wife show these symptoms?", he probably would have said yes. But the truth would have been "no REM sleep" due to depression and fibromyalgia. I would really like to see more recommendations for full physicals and a "how do you do" meeting with a counselor.


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## FormerSelf (Apr 21, 2013)

My wife, who is a mental health professional, would say that a personality disorder won't be officially diagnosed before eighteen as it is an only an adult designation and as KathyBatesel said, this is driven by insurance...yet an experienced pro will quickly spot the real deal versus something else...and will know what threads to follow to narrow a diagnosis. But signs are often evident earlier if they are headed that way...as childhood experience is a huge factor. As for a PD kicking off later in life...it is unusual...a professional would probably be looking to rule out factors such as drugs before jumping to a latent personality disorder.


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

Revamped said:


> I think coming to a marriage forum and discussing a spouse's proven mental illness without their knowledge or approval is dispicable.


Despicable is a strong word, can you explain why you think this? I ask because people who have loved ones with a diagnosed severe mental illness need support and, there is very little support, knowledge or understanding coming from the medical community. The medical community uses drug ****tails and shock treatments (etc.) and institutionalization for severe cases and, very little else.

My experience with this spans almost 40 years and I have seen very little change in the treatment and management of severe mental illness, aside from a few new drugs.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

No doubt many people who armchair diagnose make mistakes, and some of this is due to human frailties such as defense mechanisms and an inability to see oneself and the limitations of ones knowledge and field of view.



Some people become blinded to the possibility the other might have a reason for their frustration, that the other might be carrying more of a burden than anyone bothered to listen to. Some people eagerly make diagnoses and write people off, perhaps because it is easier that way, and perhaps because it quenches the desire to be "right" and enjoy validation from likeminded fellow-travelers eagerly reaching the same conclusion based on even less firsthand information. 



It can happen on any thread, including this one. I don't see much difference in someone dismissing their spouse's complaints and behavior by using a label such as "BPD" and those who would diminish the struggles of someone who "misdiagnosed BPD". Except, maybe, those pointing the finger at the misdiagnosing have relatively less skin in the game.



It's a shame when that happens. Most people who come here are hurting in some way, and so are their spouses. If you haven't walked a mile in someone's shoes, one should be very cautious about diagnosing someone else, even when one's diagnosis is that the other is "guilty" of misdiagnosing their partner.


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

Personality disorders are complexly entangled with each other.

Disordered people are not easy to live with and it's NOT despicable for their spouse to rant about it anonymously here.

It might be difficult to get an official BPD diagnosis for someone, but it's not that hard for their spouse to identify the disordered aspects of the personality. This is a privilege(a pretty sad one) only a spouse or an adult-offspring can posses due to many years of exposure.

Personality disorders are real and they are much more prevalent than official stats. BPD itself is a highly under-diagnosed disorder that insurance companies are very paranoid about. It's a disorder with an almost endless spectrum. But it's real and needs a lot of research.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> .
> 
> .
> 
> ...





The sad thing is that someone whose spouse has serious diagnosable mmental health issues -- or even someone "merely" enmeshed with a partner who is verbally abusive and controlling but would not meet any diagnostic criteria -- that someone is likely struggling to understand what is going on, and where his or her responsibility and ability to fix things begins and ends. 



I fear such folks would miss the brief mention "Now that might be the case", and feel invalidated by the "But I doubt it usually is."




I don't believe that is your intent. And it may never happen.



My view is yeah, people in all sorts of situations get things wrong. Some of this is could happen to the best of us. Some is almost transparently self-deceptive. Some of it is frustrating. Some of it, even from afar, leaves the observer feeling victimized in some familiar way. It is hard. Being human is hard. Knowing is difficult. Some try to take short cuts. Take it on directly when you see it, but leave room for being wrong about your suspicions. It may drive you nuts, but that's not why the OP's thread is here.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

PieceOfSky said:


> The sad thing is that someone whose spouse has serious diagnosable mmental health issues -- or even someone "merely" enmeshed with a partner who is verbally abusive and controlling but would not meet any diagnostic criteria -- that someone is likely struggling to understand what is going on, and where his or her responsibility and ability to fix things begins and ends.
> 
> I fear such folks would miss the brief mention "Now that might be the case", and feel invalidated by the "But I doubt it usually is."
> 
> ...


Hmm. I am getting a controlling vibe from this post. And I am wondering why that is.

I am thinking that feeling like a victim, whether of a BPD spouse, or even just an anonymous internet stranger, is very comforting. It makes us feel right, somehow. 

But it does not get us into proactivity.

Have you taken a look at Zous's latest posts, Piece? He is no longer embracing victimhood. He is reaching out to his wife. He seems more positive and hopeful. I think these are the fruits of proactivity.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

jld said:


> Hmm. I am getting a controlling vibe from this post. And I am wondering why that is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Perhaps you could state why you think my post is controlling?



Perhaps you could explain why you respond to me with a description of Zous reaching out to his wife.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

PieceOfSky said:


> Perhaps you could state why you think my post is controlling?
> 
> That was what the second paragraph of my post explained.
> 
> ...


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Red Sonja said:


> Despicable is a strong word, can you explain why you think this? I ask because people who have loved ones with a diagnosed severe mental illness need support and, there is very little support, knowledge or understanding coming from the medical community.


IMO there is a line between getting support and advice and just making fun of your spouse and their mental disorder. I've seen both.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> IMO there is a line between getting support and advice and just making fun of your spouse and their mental disorder. I've seen both.


Or diagnosing your spouse with a mental disorder because they don't have sex as much as you want.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

oh, that one is righteous... I was diagnosed with TWO mental disorders by my mother because I didn't "nest" in her style of nesting while I was pregnant.

No, mother... it's called possessing my own philosophy about hating commercialism and "nesting" in MY style... thank you very much. 

I was ANGRY she would call me mentally "off" for not being like her. omg. That was the beginning of the end of her and I.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

> Originally Posted by PieceOfSky
> Perhaps you could state why you think my post is controlling?
> 
> That was what the second paragraph of my post explained.
> ...


JLD,

I see placing too much importance on an "official diagnosis" as being flawed in the same way as placing too much importance on a "lack of official diagnosis" or "lack of a credible diagnosis" or "clearly not meeting diagnostic criteria". A diagnosis has value when it can point the way to effective treatment. A diagnosis has value when it helps those involved understand that something not fully in everyone's control is at work. A diagnosis has value when it truly applies and is -- with some degree of acknowledged and respected risk -- used as shorthand in conversations about patterns of behavior, assuming folks keep in mind the specific individual's truth trumps any would-be generalizations invited by the diagnostic "label".

A diagnosis can be comforting, sometimes appropriately and sometimes inappropriately; in the inappropriately case, and it is likely to lead to even more trouble. I acknowledge the phenomenon EleGirl described exists, and I hope to goodness I don't indulge in it too much myself (but, how would I really know, unless someone told me directly and with informative quotes from my posts; anyone come to my thread and enlighten me if you think I can be reached).

It wasn't clear to me that your prior post's second paragraph was connected to the first. So, from all this, it seems to me you think of me as stuck in my victimhood. It also seems to me you see me as enabling Zous to do the same. 

If so, is there something in my posts to Zous you could point me to where I enabled his victimhood, or even failed to encourage him to act and act with compassion and gentleness.? My intent was to ignore the diagnosis he reported and encourage him to do what he can to help each of them understand what is really troubling the other, and what the others' experience is.

If there is something you suggest I do differently with my wife, then please stop by my thread and post your thoughts about that there. It feels like you are insinuating that I have not reached out to my wife, and that perhaps it has never occurred to me. And, once again, in case you can believe I mean this well, you seem oddly eager to dismiss with the label "victimhood" any man and every man who comes here complaining about his wife's behavior. Perhaps I have misunderstood you. But in case you don't know, Dug seems like a great guy, sensitive, patient, healthy, centered, and caring. Not every spouse is like that.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Revamped said:


> I think coming to a marriage forum and discussing a spouse's proven mental illness without their knowledge or approval is dispicable.
> .


Isn't "despicable" too much? Most of people here come for anonymous advise, because they are lost. There is a lot of threads discussing depressed spouse. Is it despicable? Is discussing LD spouse despicable? Why don't we just shut down the TAM? If you use harsh words like this, you are shutting some poeple, stopping them from looking for help or advise. 
it is easy to throw big words on things that do not concern you.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

PieceOfSky said:


> JLD,
> 
> I see placing too much importance on an "official diagnosis" as being flawed in the same way as placing too much importance on a "lack of official diagnosis" or "lack of a credible diagnosis" or "clearly not meeting diagnostic criteria". A diagnosis has value when it can point the way to effective treatment. A diagnosis has value when it helps those involved understand that something not fully in everyone's control is at work. A diagnosis has value when it truly applies and is -- with some degree of acknowledged and respected risk -- used as shorthand in conversations about patterns of behavior, assuming folks keep in mind the specific individual's truth trumps any would-be generalizations invited by the diagnostic "label".
> 
> ...


She is not referring to your case specifically. This thread is about, to my understanding, people, mostly men, who have a problem with their spouse and are too easily doing an amateur diagnosis to explain away behavior that could easily have other causes than a mental disorder.


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## Flying_Dutchman (Oct 29, 2014)

Of course there will be armchair diagnosis of BPD. Then, because BPD can lead to 'troubled' relationships, TAM is one of those places you'd expect a BPD spouse to show up. So, while BPD/other cluster B PDs may only affect 3 - 7% of the population, they're likely to be significantly higher on 'help' forums.

With forum posters, I try to take the OPs at face value. Further probing will usually reveal which spouse is indeed 'disordered'.

Interestingly, in my brief time here, the 'worst' cases of PDs I've seen have come from OPs who've not mentioned PDs. Both male and female,, crying out for help because they have no clue what's up with their SO.

To answer the OP. I've worked in MH assessment,, but always in the social care side. N/BPD can be diagnosed pretty quickly, as can other PDs when they're extreem. More often, because cluster B PDs stem from the same area of 'brain frazzelment' you get a cócktail of PD symptoms.

In the care side, we're less concerned with specific diagnosis than helping the PDs and their families/carers lead happier lives. So, we look at what motivates them, what their primary needs are, and give them as much insight as possible into managing their own conditions.

Once they're getting treatment and their motivations/needs are assessed, both care teams and families should be 'in' on their care plan. In light of that, it's a bit surprising that people come here seeking diagnosed B/PD help,, cuz the person who diagnosed them should've clued the SO in on how to cope with them.

Each N/B/PD being unique - despite common characteristics - it's all but impossible to advise on 'best care' when we're remote and can't speak to the (alleged) PD ourselves.

Hence the mantra - get them into treatment, get them a care plan.

Like the PDs themselves, these PD related threads break down into common agreements with bickerings surrounding the specifics based on personal experience.

You won't find unity because your/their PD is unique to you. So - assessment and care plan in the real world. A forum - remote access - can only give you pointers.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ConanHub said:


> She is not referring to your case specifically. This thread is about, to my understanding, people, mostly men, who have a problem with their spouse and are too easily doing an amateur diagnosis to explain away behavior that could easily have other causes than a mental disorder.


Yes, this is exactly what the thread is about.... people making amateur diagnosis as a way to explain why their wife/husband is behaving the way they are or does see things eye to eye with them.

I did not target this threat at just men. I've seen women do it was well.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

WandaJ said:


> Isn't "despicable" too much? Most of people here come for anonymous advise, because they are lost. There is a lot of threads discussing depressed spouse. Is it despicable? Is discussing LD spouse despicable? Why don't we just shut down the TAM? If you use harsh words like this, you are shutting some poeple, stopping them from looking for help or advise.
> it is easy to throw big words on things that do not concern you.


Yes, most of the people who come here are lost and in great need to support and advice.

However, when a poster starts to go on about their spouse having some kind of mental or personality disorder we need to be careful and find out why they say this before jumping on the band wagon.

One situation comes to mind of a man who said that his wife was diagnosed BPD. And of course there were people who supported him without digging any deeper.

As it turned out, there was no diagnosis. She came here and talked to us. Only after she gave us the information to challenge him did he admit that he is the one who "diagnosed" her. She'd even been to see doctors who said that she is not BPD, she is an abused woman who is suffering the affects of the abuse.

He diagnosed her from things he read on the internet. Instead the rest of the story (yes she came here and talked to us) is that is a grossly abusive man who for 12 years abused her mentally and physically. The last time he abused her he hit her 200 times. She counted the hits and he bragged about it. Said it was her fault because she was not a good, submissive wife.

We have to be very careful when giving advice and support that we dig deeply enough to know that we are not helping someone like this man harm his wife.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Flying_Dutchman said:


> Each N/B/PD being unique - despite common characteristics - it's all but impossible to advise on 'best care' when we're remote and can't speak to the (alleged) PD ourselves.
> 
> Hence the mantra - get them into treatment, get them a care plan.
> 
> ...


I agree with your entire post but only copied the above for comment.

There are two scenarios that I see here, one are the people who spouses do not have any PD but the person who comes here has decided that some PD must be the reason that their spouse, in their eyes, is the sole cause of all marital conflict. We need to be careful that we are not sucked into this sort of situation. Sadly, I think that this happens more often than not.

The other scenario is a person whose spouse does have a PD and it's causing serious issues with the marriage. We are not equipped to help these people except to give them moral support and point them to get help from someone in their real life who knows their situation.

I've seen the first scenario here far too often. That's my concern.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Elegirl, I agree with everything you wrote here. What I don't agree is throwing words like "despicable" and similar in a random way.


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## Flying_Dutchman (Oct 29, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> I agree with your entire post but only copied the above for comment.
> 
> There are two scenarios that I see here, one are the people who spouses do not have any PD but the person who comes here has decided that some PD must be the reason that their spouse, in their eyes, is the sole cause of all marital conflict. We need to be careful that we are not sucked into this sort of situation. Sadly, I think that this happens more often than not.
> 
> ...


I didn't dwell on it,, but I alluded to the 'other' scenario here,,,



Flying_Dutchman said:


> With forum posters, I try to take the OPs at face value. Further probing will usually reveal which spouse is indeed 'disordered'.


,,, and there's the "(alleged)" in the bit you've copied.

These days, with all the medical and true crime progs,, there are a lot of armchair shrinks and profilers. All we can do is be vigilant.

Since it's what I'm trained to do, I look for patterns of behaviour the OPs describe, and the same in the behaviour of the OPs themselves.

They might hoodwink me initially,, but the more I get the more enlightened I become.

In a similar vein, irrespective of subject matter, there are OPs asking for help when they want validation.

To their credit, there are plenty of users here who can identify the genuine from the less than.

Then, there are 'helpers' who insist that what worked for them will work for the OP.

All things considered,, I expect all 'types',, OPs and responders,, and fights to ensue. I'm happy to help whoever needs it - and (sometimes) fight whoever wants one. Anyplace where you can do good deeds and get entertainment is fulfilling.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

ugh... ok Flying Dutchman.. get off my toes. I probably fall into that "helper" category from time to time. lol


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## Zouz (May 28, 2014)

pidge70 said:


> I was diagnosed 10yrs ago, after 1 visit. I did an intake with a psychologist, and took the MMPI and the MMPI2. It took a while to get the results, maybe a week? Someone who is trained in personality disorders is going to be quite intuitive to the characteristics shown.
> 
> The latest stats I found were that 2% of the population has BPD at the full blown level. It is primarily diagnosed in women as women seem to be more likely to seek out help.


Elegirl, 

this a testemony from a brave woman it seems, who is directly related to the issue ...

what i want to say That this topic is not straight forward ; 
what is more straight forward is to live with someone who have a personality disrorder ; it is not a shame to have a disorder .

I tell you again , I survived war, a brain tumor, bankruptcy once ; all were peace of cake , compared to living with someone who suck happiness from your heart ; wether she intend or not ...

you know now in which state I am , trying again to recover my marriage ; I will try again and again ....until no hope exists .

and who knows maybe assuming she is BPD is better ; because now I see her a sick person require medical attaention ; otherwise I will see the monster she could be.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Zouz, you have to assess her capacity and willingness. This isn't about you being a martyr. Healthy and extremely honest self assessment is what is needed. There are many of us here who hear some of the things you and John say to your wives and our gut reaction to that is "no wonder she reacts the way she does." (not that a poor reaction is justified - all are called to respond with love) We challenge the story because your side of the aisle isn't cleaned up yet. You keep switching aisles so you don't have to stare at your own issues. No progress will happen until you walk long and hard down your own aisle and clean up appropriately. When it's clean, then look at your wife and say "hmmmm.. does she or does she not possess the capacity or willingness to do the same" then "do I have the capacity or willingness to live like this if she doesn't"

That's what we are trying to say. Nothing can ever be an excuse for not cleaning up your own aisle. Regardless of the trauma you have already experienced from her or other events. None of us are afforded that luxury in this life. What we are afforded is consequences if we don't accurately and humbly self assess. And accurately assess our spouses.


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## Flying_Dutchman (Oct 29, 2014)

Blossom Leigh said:


> ugh... ok Flying Dutchman.. get off my toes. I probably fall into that "helper" category from time to time. lol


Haha - Not really, Blossom. I've never seen you insist that your way is the only way. We're ALL guilty of bringing our individual experiences - it'd be boring if we didn't.

Your use of the dog was a FANTASTIC example of BPD distraction/refocus - and of the hard work required to figure such things out. 

So long as I don't catch you running around telling BPDs to "Buy a dog!", you're fine as you are.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Flying_Dutchman said:


> Haha - Not really, Blossom. I've never seen you insist that your way is the only way. We're ALL guilty of bringing our individual experiences - it'd be boring if we didn't.
> 
> Your use of the dog was a FANTASTIC example of BPD distraction/refocus - and of the hard work required to figure such things out.
> 
> ...


:rofl:

omg if I ever do that please feel free to pull out the 2 x 4

And thank you by the way... yea, I have never been so grateful for our dog than in that moment.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

i see three different posters posting about personality disorders... and psychological disorders in general, for that matter. 

those who love their spouses and want whats best for them.
those who want their spouses to love them so that they can love them back.
and those who do not love their spouses. 

people who suffer BPD, or anything that resembles it, arent exactly happy. they need love, not judgement.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

As'laDain said:


> i see three different posters posting about personality disorders... and psychological disorders in general, for that matter.
> 
> those who love their spouses and want whats best for them.
> those who want their spouses to love them so that they can love them back.
> ...


Post of the day right there....:smthumbup:


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

soccermom2three said:


> Yes, I'm thinking of one particular poster.



Well, if that poster knows a thing or two about psychology, can understand he criteria in the accepted diagnostic manuals, and has actually taken the time to involve his wife in 8-9 or so FC sessions with a behavioral psychologist where BPD was "officially" diagnosed, and mental illness runs in her family like horses in the Kentucky Derby, maybe that particular poster has a good reason to believe his wife is BPD 

In general BPD is expected to afflict about 1.5% of the population, with women outnumbering men by a margin of 3 to 1 in some studies and equal in others. Other sources put the number closer to 6% with equal rates for both genders.

If you have time to waste between rages  here's the link of the latest NIH numbers:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/18426259/


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

soccermom2three said:


> So can BPD develop later in life? I always though it stems from childhood. Can it be dormant and then just be released at a later age? Like 40ish? Some posters around here make out like it just happened to their wives in mid life.



Look up Adult Onset BPD. Not very common but it happens.

The traits and predisposition are there and sometimes they develop into the full Monte.

Keep in mind that since mental illness in general is bad news to insurance companies and not an easy thing to treat or "get glory" there is not quite as much research as one would think.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> IMO there is a line between getting support and advice and just making fun of your spouse and their mental disorder. I've seen both.



If me and my daughters didn't "make fun" of my dear wife on occasion, there wouldn't be enough therapists left in Paducah to treat the three of us.

If you're a teenager and your mother made your life miserable during your high school years and drive your self esteem to the gutter, you can either make fun of her on occasion and reconcile with her, walk out and work fast food and never speak to her again, or keep it all inside and dump it all on the first unsuspecting schlep you meet.


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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

OR...

Seek a better understanding of the disorder and use a medical practitioners advise on how to cope...

If I EVER catch my children poking fun at me or their father, I'd put them in their place so fast their head would swim. I absolutely will not tolerate disrespect from a child.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

Revamped said:


> OR...
> 
> Seek a better understanding of the disorder and use a medical practitioners advise on how to cope...
> 
> If I EVER catch my children poking fun at me or their father, I'd put them in their place so fast their head would swim. I absolutely will not tolerate disrespect from a child.


I don't think a medical practitioner has even diagnosed his wife, why would he ask for advice on how to cope?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

soccermom2three said:


> I don't think a medical practitioner has even diagnosed his wife, why would he ask for advice on how to cope?



Quite incorrect I'm afraid.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Revamped said:


> OR...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Better understanding... I've read about a dozen books on BPD, did the usual clinical / behavioral psych undergrad courses, and spent a good part of a year's FC with my girl's therapist "learning to cope". In BPD land it's called unconditional love and acceptance and validation and all the other good stuff.

Except it doesn't always work. Not when the BPD isn't interested in making it work. 

My kids are born and raised American with a big exception - low key European style parenting. I absolutely encouraged them to push their boundaries of behavior and learn from their mistakes. I did not pull rank, threaten them, or withhold privileges. I discussed things with them and they understood. If that means they are free to make fun of me, well, so be it. Do it tastefully and nobody gets hurt 

Caustic humor is a family tradition - my namesake grandpa was beyond funny, some of his 7 kids, my mom being one, me, my younger girl. Putting a lid on such behavior would be unconscionable.


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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

That's where you and I disagree.

There is NO part of being made fun of that's tasteful.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Revamped said:


> That's where you and I disagree.
> 
> There is NO part of being made fun of that's tasteful.


Agreed. My H came from that kind of family and I don't cotton to it. He is changing and now calling his older brother out on that behavior. He didn't realize how sarcastic, disrespectful and caustic it was until he left it and now watches it from the outside and it upsets him now.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

He's doing it wrong. 

There are ways to make fun of people tastefully.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> Yes, this is exactly what the thread is about.... people making amateur diagnosis as a way to explain why their wife/husband is behaving the way they are or does see things eye to eye with them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...






I think you meant thread not threat (and I recently meant are not ate, darn phone). But, I digress 



I noticed you very early made a point to mention women as well as men make the same sort of diagnoses. I agree, appreciate and value that.


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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

john117 said:


> He's doing it wrong.
> 
> There are ways to make fun of people tastefully.


No, there really isn't.

But go ahead, make your assertion about being on the outside looking in. And how "fun" it is. 

How much "fun" Are YOU having, John? I bet a million laughs. But a trillion tears.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

That's where character strength comes into play. Why cry over something you have no influence over? 

I've stopped believing in fairy tales a long time ago. If the world wants me to take it seriously it needs to work harder at it.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> I agree with your entire post but only copied the above for comment.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




That is an important concern. The truth matters. Sometimes life and death.



Getting the truth takes time, and may not be possible with certain sorts of pretenders. Yet, I like to think if we keep the otherwise-reachable ones talking long enough, there's a good chance the vigilance FD mentioned will bear fruit.



What are effective means of not getting sucked into it?


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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

The only one who needs to take this seriously is YOU.

But you don't.

Life's a big hoax, and you are just a pawn.

Never mind she's you're wife.

If you don't care, why should we?


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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

You want to play both sides of the coin.

In one respect, she's BPD so you have no control.

But then, when it's pointed out that she DOES have a legitimate illness, then, whoa, no way is it YOUR fault for making fun, or :iagree:making sure she has psychological evaluations, meds and support at her disposal.

NOW, it is a hassle for YOU. So screw it. Her problem, not yours.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Revamped said:


> The only one who needs to take this seriously is YOU.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We are all pawns actually. The more seriously one takes life the hardest it will be when one kicks the ole' bucket.

If she doesn't care for herself, why should I?


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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

She has a documentaded illness.

You do not.

You played the card of BPD. Now live up to it.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> I'm putting this the GRD forum abuse it's about BPD diagnosis as related to marriage.
> 
> People come here often saying that their spouse has BPD but won't take meds, go to therapy, etc. In further discussion it turns out that the spouse had one or two meetings with a therapist, if even a psychiatrist, who then said they had BPD.
> 
> ...


We have become a society where we need to put labels on everyone and that’s part of the problem. BPD is the latest catch-all phrase. Getting a true diagnosis most of the time takes more than one or two visits I believe and it is also very dependent on what kind of “professional” they see.

We see many therapists/counselors diagnosing people who just arent trained to do it. The differences between BPD and other mental issues can be subtle and a great many of these people have secondary issues which often get diagnosed first such as depression or PTSD but these are generally symptoms of the real problem more than the actual problem. 

Over the last year my stbx has had six different therapists and she has had 4 different “official” diagnosis I think. None of these therapsits have a medical degree. Other issues such as insomnia, stress or hormones both male and female can mimic BPD or other mental health issue or push someone over the edge into a full blown mental issue. 

We also run into basic economics because our wonderful insurance system will cover some items but not others. It is not unusual for the medical world to put one thing down on paper while actually treating someone for another just to keep the money coming in. Insurance is not mental illness friendly at all so even if someone is seeking real help its often limited by the amount of money they have. 

We also have to remember that many times when someone starts posting here there life generally has become turned completely upside down. Getting your spouse to seek medical help especially a mental illness is a struggle so obviously they search the internet looking for some answers. 

We do have the great generalities like all women have BPD and all men are emotional abuser porn addicts. Both of these scenarios get overplayed.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

soccermom2three said:


> I don't think a medical practitioner has even diagnosed his wife, why would he ask for advice on how to cope?




You have no knowledge of who has seen his wife, for how long, what was said by whom, and how she typically behaves.



Yet you feel comfortable painting him as someone who is unqualified to make judgments about his situation -- or at least you think he is less qualified than you? 



And you are comfortable suggesting he has no motivation or character to seek better ways of coping? That he has never done do?



If so, I cannot understand where your certainty comes from. I can understand you not liking John (no offense ). But if you think you know what it is like to be him or his kids or his wife, I do not understand why. 



The antidote to the misdiagnoses problem isn't to replace one misdiagnosis with another formed in the absence of facts by unqualified, and possibly frustrated, folks here.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Revamped said:


> She has a documentaded illness.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



As long as she lives up to it and seeks treatment I'm all ears.


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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

She can't.

She's ILL.

But you're not. And treat it as a game, at her expense.

Get off the cross, John, someone needs the wood to keep warm.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Revamped said:


> She can't.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



She's healthy enough to work 12 hour days... She has Dr. Jamie's card in her wallet. 

After you have tried everything and nothing has worked, you can either stress yourself to death or make a game of it.

Even in Paducah, game >> death by a mile.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

PieceOfSky said:


> That is an important concern. The truth matters. Sometimes life and death.
> 
> Getting the truth takes time, and may not be possible with certain sorts of pretenders. Yet, I like to think if we keep the otherwise-reachable ones talking long enough, there's a good chance the vigilance FD mentioned will bear fruit.
> 
> What are effective means of not getting sucked into it?


I think that asking questions that help to look at the situation from a lot of different angles. In doing this, a person who is just painting a picture to make themselves look good and the other person bad will eventually expose their game.

Look at physiological tests. They ask the same questions, using different wording several times.


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

Revamped, are you going to address my question (back on page 2) or are you just here to beat up John?


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## Zouz (May 28, 2014)

By now I should know why my ears keeps on ringing 

Gurrrrr,rrr,rr..

Ele girl raised a valid topic , about an invalid use of TAM to get sympathy by a poster accusing (! I doubt it is a trial !) -his spouse of being BPD.

I believe it is a valid question ; but as usual like any other discussion , various opinions jump from here and there , then some would like to shoot abusers , others watch closely because it affects "feminims thread" and some give their modest/ fruitful experience .

I won't defend my case , because there is no case ;sometimes we are so exhausted to an extent that we don't care about what the disorder is called , nor what doctors/professional call it if the "sick person doesn't want to proceed in any treatment ;


my only question would be would you see me on TAM raising such an issue ;if the issue is just " she hates my gut " ?

what about if she accepted treatment ?


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## Zouz (May 28, 2014)

Now , predicting what will happen with me in my recent attempt ; and hearing few encouraging opinion from and others speculating : "well he has to wait long long time to get results ; if he succeeds there is a possibility that she was not BPDer at first place !"


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Zouz said:


> By now I should know why my ears keeps on ringing
> 
> Gurrrrr,rrr,rr..
> 
> ...


This thread was not directed at you... it is talking about an issue that we see over an over in both male and female OP's.

Sometimes "she hates my guts" is probably easier to deal with and fix.

I get the frustration. I was married to a guy who fell apart and never came out of it. I have no idea what his problem is because he won't go get any help. 

It can be very hard to determine if a behavior is caused by some kind of PD or mental illness, or if the person is angry or resentful for a good reason. And then what our own contribution to the situation is.

Just because a person does (or does not) have a PD or mental illness, it does not mean that they are always wrong in all things or that we are not at fault at times.

That's that puzzle that needs to be solved.


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## Zouz (May 28, 2014)

I want to assume that John is a sex Maniac , who is a bad boy because he is committing the unacceptable requests from his wife ...

ladies and advocates who are acting extreemes ( plus those who jump in without knowing anything...!):

The guy is labeled "sex maniac" !

Aren't you going to help him with advises like :
"Go pray that you won't have desires tonight ?"
"And teach your self how to breath slowly because when you are upset and your BP is 170 you disturb your wife by breathing ...

Regarding my status , you would be shocked about findings and interesting stuff; Go to my thread , I am sure you won't answer a mother nature call without reading latest update !


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## Zouz (May 28, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> This thread was not directed at you... it is talking about an issue that we see over an over in both male and female OP's.
> 
> :iagree:
> 
> ...


As long as no generalization is adopted ...


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Zouz said:


> I want to assume that John is a sex Maniac , who is a bad boy because he is committing the unacceptable requests from his wife ...
> 
> ......
> 
> ...


He's making an unacceptable request of his wife??? :scratchhead: really?


Why would anyone suggest any of those things?


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## Zouz (May 28, 2014)

yeah , he did  
whispering :
_"he asked her for intimacy ..."
A year or two back ; hes is a bad boy Ele ;
_


the guy is always wrong as some ppl see : If he is always wrong , his words about his wife are lies .

SO his lies about his wife are not true ; 

Accordingly her words about him are true .

Which means that she is right about calling him sex maniac -( similar to what sweetheart used to call me , now she use other names...).

Now reaching the poof that John is a sex maniac , she should make a lesson out of him ; so that nobody dares anymore to Call his wife a B P D ; even if the whole world confirm ; he can say B , he can say PD but not BPD.

:rofl:


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

John has not been called a liar. He has been challenged, no more, no less.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Zouz said:


> Now , predicting what will happen with me in my recent attempt ; and hearing few encouraging opinion from and others speculating : "well he has to wait long long time to get results ; if he succeeds there is a possibility that she was not BPDer at first place !"


This is a good thing. Having the issue be that your spouse is angry at you, resentful, is better than learning to live around a PD. 

The problem comes when you assume a woman who is angry and resentful is BDP. You won't get results if you can't look at your own side of what you did wrong, and view her feelings as valid and important. 
Just like labeling you a sex maniac for having normal desires, labeling her BDP for having normal complaints and resentments shuts down communication and understanding of the other. 

It's like as soon as a spouse decides it's BDP they can do whatever they want without any accountability or care for the "BDP" spouse. Using it as a way to disregard their spouse's feelings and needs. Of course this makes "BDP" spouse more resentful, more angry which only feeds into diagnosing spouse's view. 

Being on the receiving end of years of gaslighting (to the point where he even convinced my own family and police officers I was just "crazy") it's probably one of my most sensitive issues. The fact is, you can make someone seem and act disordered by treating them like they are disordered. It's abusive and you need to make sure you don't fall into that.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> This is a good thing. Having the issue be that your spouse is angry at you, resentful, is better than learning to live around a PD.
> 
> The problem comes when you assume a woman who is angry and resentful is BDP. You won't get results if you can't look at your own side of what you did wrong, and view her feelings as valid and important.
> Just like labeling you a sex maniac for having normal desires, labeling her BDP for having normal complaints and resentments shuts down communication and understanding of the other.
> ...


It is extremely abusive, unloving and destructive. Totally agree SGC. It's called psychological abuse and can be one of the hardest abuses to spot and stop.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

I look at everything in terms of dog behavior because dogs are very simple stripped down one dimensional spins on human behavior. Basically they're dumb. One of my dogs is an ex-drug dog that 'accidentally' was turned into a drug addict. It rewired her brain and now she's for lack of a better word, insane. She craves attention so that when you give it to her she can attack you. I think that's what borderline is like. Tell me you love me so I can stab you.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

Revamped said:


> I think coming to a marriage forum and discussing a spouse's proven mental illness without their knowledge or approval is dispicable.
> 
> It's not trying to gain understanding of the illness or productive ways a spouse can help manage a diagnosed disorder. It's trying to gain sympathy from a target audience that may or may not have the capability to help.
> 
> ...


There are support forums for this, and I think that people dealing with a bi-polar or borderline personality disorder spouse should seek out support online. I don't see how it's despicable, with or without the spouse's consent. Online forums have at least some anonymity. What if your spouse didn't want you to seek support? Mine is that way. He would prefer I not speak to friends, family, to anyone on a forum, and he doesn't believe in counseling. His method is to just internalize everything and he would prefer I do the same. Now THAT undermines the recovery process, as there isn't one.


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## Zouz (May 28, 2014)

[QUOTE=SlowlyGoingCrazy;

May be communication , maybe interpretation ...
to Clarify the issue of BPD is never mentioned again to dear wife ; 

when she was diagnosied and refused to go back to specialist i have respected her decision and never mentioned it again ....

however I made it clear to her that if it was me I would have went back and proved to the specialist that she is wrong ...

Also I mentioned to her that I Will see some other specialist because I need one for my self because she doesn't accept alose to go for MC ; I told her if she opt to get a second consultancy for her ; I will be glad to be with her ; she refused ; I didn't stress on her since then ...

So no , the issue of BPD is not mentioned to her except at that time ; now my approach is that as if this issue was never raised .


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## Zouz (May 28, 2014)

SurpriseMyself said:


> There are support forums for this, and I think that people dealing with a bi-polar or borderline personality disorder spouse should seek out support online. I don't see how it's despicable, with or without the spouse's consent. Online forums have at least some anonymity. What if your spouse didn't want you to seek support? Mine is that way. He would prefer I not speak to friends, family, to anyone on a forum, and he doesn't believe in counseling. His method is to just internalize everything and he would prefer I do the same. Now THAT undermines the recovery process, as there isn't one.



:iagree:


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

SCG, maybe some of us who have a spouse with a PD are actually quite qualified to follow the same process your typical therapist would follow to diagnose a lot of issues. I listened to endless assessment questions during FC and most were not unlike what I was taught decades ago. 

However, a competent therapist can identify a lot more of the details, root causes, and the like and offer various alternatives and therapy. That needs clinical experience. 

The pop psychology books or web sites make it easy to "diagnose" PD's but the reality is one needs to consider the impact of those "symptoms", their magnitude, frequency, consistency, and so on. 

And once again a lot of us took the time to consult with a knowledgeable mental health practitioner and have our suspected PD spouse evaluated in the hope of improvement. 

Also a lot of us really have better things to do than come up with imaginary PD's for our spouses. For what? It's not like we are married to dot com or oil heiresses...


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## Zouz (May 28, 2014)

Surprise :

I had a long long discussion ; with the closest 2 persons in the world to my wife .


I never dared to open up any complaint to them , assuming that They will nail me ; because they love her to an extent that they sometimes sacrifice more than i ever imagine ; they spoil her ...

I took courage and said :

-"I have been unhappy with Wife since long long time ...."

I expected to hear words of accusation ; but nothing ;
after they proved listening with a lot of care ; I gave them few examples about her behavior and waited for a feedback .

-BIN said : " we thought the issue is behind us all when you both looked happy in your marriage ; Now That it was never over as we thought : You have the right to hear the story .

So guys ,

She has a sever personality disorder , Known to her family ; they assumed that all is well because we looked Happy family ,had they knew there is a problem they would have told me !

Can blame them , will talk about this disorder later ; When i come back ; grab a cup of coffee because it will be a long story .....


 I wish I was wrong ; I prefer to be a jerk; easier ...


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

SurpriseMyself said:


> There are support forums for this, and I think that people dealing with a bi-polar or borderline personality disorder spouse should seek out support online. I don't see how it's despicable, with or without the spouse's consent. Online forums have at least some anonymity. What if your spouse didn't want you to seek support? Mine is that way. He would prefer I not speak to friends, family, to anyone on a forum, and he doesn't believe in counseling. His method is to just internalize everything and he would prefer I do the same. Now THAT undermines the recovery process, as there isn't one.


I don't think anyone is complaining about legitimate support or advice seeking. 
It's the 'listen to what my crazy wife did this time so we can all laugh at her' and the 'my spouse is angry at me, she must be BDP because I don't do anything wrong' and making every single issue a PD thing. (ie I wanted to go to obviously better X restaurant but silly BDP wife wanted to go to Y restaurant! Such an unreasonable, controlling person)

Even if your spouse does have a disorder, you can be wrong, unreasonable, hurtful. If someone isn't willing to look on their own side of things there is not much anyone can do.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

john117 said:


> SCG, maybe some of us who have a spouse with a PD are actually quite qualified to follow the same process your typical therapist would follow to diagnose a lot of issues. I listened to endless assessment questions during FC and most were not unlike what I was taught decades ago.
> .


Drs don't treat their own family. There's a reason for that. You are a biased person, you have your own stake in the game. You need to step back and not try to 'therapist' her. It's not your place. 

Look to your own issues, you can only fix yourself. Playing games, putting you and your children against her and teaching them to disrespect her, triggering her, laughing at her, making fun of her-- all these things you can work on now, for yourself and your kids. Just leave her to herself, you're leaving anyway and are only there for the money. 
Change rooms, make your own dinners, live like how you would when you're apart. You have a big home, be separated in it.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I've been doing all that. The girls are in college and on a good day we will exchange 20 sentences.

She has earned the right of being disrespected. Let me know if you would respect a parent that goes into a rage and tears a dozen of your garments to pieces because they're "slvtty". The same parent who bought them for you.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

An eye for a eye makes the whole world blind, John.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> An eye for a eye makes the whole world blind, John.



Tell that to the Israelis.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Do you really feel that threatened by your wife, John?


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

john117 said:


> I've been doing all that. The girls are in college and on a good day we will exchange 20 sentences.
> 
> She has earned the right of being disrespected. Let me know if you would respect a parent that goes into a rage and tears a dozen of your garments to pieces because they're "slvtty". The same parent who bought them for you.


You're still in the same bed playing music to keep her up, still complaining about her cooking so no, you aren't. 
She is a person. People can do bad things. Teach your children to be better than that, show them what it looks like. If it is bad enough that you can not help but to be abusive back, teach them to leave. That material possessions aren't worth your self-respect. 

But making everything a battle between you and your kids vs. her - making fun of her being worried when you are late, make-up, parties, you have already set up a situation where there's no room for respect. You're supposed to stand with your spouse. 
She deserves to be treated like a human being. If one day one of your children developed an adult onset disorder, you would them them treated with respect. Would you make fun of her? Set her up to fail so you can laugh about her with your other child?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Annoyed, not threatened.

When you have been told point blank by a very competent therapist your daughter has been seen for two years you have BPD and choose to ignore it...


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

john117 said:


> I've been doing all that. The girls are in college and on a good day we will exchange 20 sentences.
> 
> She has earned the right of being disrespected. Let me know if you would respect a parent that goes into a rage and tears a dozen of your garments to pieces because they're "slvtty". The same parent who bought them for you.


This makes me think your W was sexually abused.

When my now 26yod was 14-15 I was a modesty gestapo- just way over the top searching her dresser, confiscating things, getting angry at her...

When a daughter reaches the ages of traumas, it can be a HUGE trigger. What I was feeling inside was fear for my daughter, love for her, the desire to protect her from being hurt the way I was hurt. My MOTIVATIONS were mama bear love but my behavior created a wall between us.

Through counseling, I became aware that I had been abused as a child and how it was affecting my parenting. I apologized to all the children but especially to my 15yod at the time which broke the ice between us.

I believe your wife loves her children. Someday, as they live on and process, hopefully they will realize this. My own parents had/have HUGE deficiencies but I forgive them and know that they "did the best they could with what they had" (a proverb from AA circles)


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

SCG, no disagreement but it all boils down to 95/5. Also I place more value on my kids than I do on my wife - and she does too, it's cultural. 

Bottom line - refuses treatment, best I can do is stalemate. I'm not going to give 115% to get back 6%, BPD or no BPD. 

If she's intelligent enough to pull six figures she's intelligent enough to type BPD on google and see what it is. She won't even do that. 

It's like my father's war buddy who almost blew up the ICU because he lit a cigarette there. If you don't care about your own health at least don't endanger the rest of us. I was visiting my father in the hospital when this happened....

Reality has a price.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Seek not to be understood but to understand. St Francis

What I have done with my children is to try to help them understand that when daddy's behavior is hurtful, it comes out of daddy's issues. 

As adults they all understand that he is insanely controlling about money and puts money above relationships BECAUSE (among other things) his father rejected him from infancy and left him out of the will with the (contemptuous spit!) female children and left everything to his brother.

They understand that he is a hurting person who feels rejected. Hurting people hurt people.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

John, you're intelligent, too, but you won't give up your pride. Should we give up on you?


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

john117 said:


> SCG, no disagreement but it all boils down to 95/5. Also I place more value on my kids than I do on my wife - and she does too, it's cultural.
> 
> Bottom line - refuses treatment, best I can do is stalemate. I'm not going to give 115% to get back 6%, BPD or no BPD.
> 
> .


I'm not asking you to give. I'm saying it would be the most respectful thing you can do, if you can't help but be abusive back to her, is to separate yourself from her as much as possible. If you refuse to leave then at least move out of the bedroom, make your own dinners, don't pick fights with her, etc. 

You said in the other thread that you would miss all the "fun" that way, jokingly I assume, but is there some truth to the fact that on some level you like to see and play with her disorder and keep yourself in a situation where you can?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Zouz said:


> yeah , he did
> whispering :
> _"he asked her for intimacy ..."
> A year or two back ; hes is a bad boy Ele ;
> ...


Now who looks like they are BP? 

Geez I have no idea what you are ranting about.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Loved your post, Blonde. I've suspected CSA all along but she really never lived around male relatives or friends except immediate family - and I kinda doubt it. 

Interesting J2 focuses on one daughter only. The other is 'golden'... Makes me wonder.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

I'm not going to get in specifics about my FIL and MIL but I'm almost 100% sure that my MIL's behavior is a result of being married to my FIL. If he came on here and described his wife's actions I'm sure he would be told that she has some kind of personality disorder. Thing is, he is a very difficult man and can be a real a-hole and she's had to live with that for 50 years. That's got to change a person's behavior and personality


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

SCG I try to separate myself but there's this little thing called "fear of abandonment"... I offered to sleep in another bedroom - she said we will have to clean more rooms. 

I avoid interaction with her in general but she often gets clingy. When I come home she has to give me a play by play of who did what to whom at work (she works from home 4 days a week and 1 day at the client). I don't care - esp when she never gives a krap about my work. 

I would be more than happy to not interact with her at all. As it is, 50-70% of her talk is about her work, 20-25% is about her house and chores, and maybe 5-10% is her children and 0.00002% is about me...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> John, you're intelligent, too, but you won't give up your pride. Should we give up on you?



It's not a matter of pride. 

If you can have a marriage with someone who - BPD or no BPD - consistently ignores you and anything to do with you but expects you to be there for her, well... Let me know.

This morning she complained about her back hurting so I gave her a nice massage. Came to work 30 min late. I'm not a monster but I gotta wonder sometimes.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The problem is I know as much about her childhood as I do about Opera. Not a whole lot. I've met her mother once, father 5-6 times, don't speak the language (they speak some Arabic plus their local language), never been to her country, you get the idea.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

John, 
I don't think you are handling the relationship with your W in a manner which will melt the ice/tear down the walls. I think Retrouvaille could help your M. Marriage Help Program For Couples

My H could come on TAM and say I am mentally ill because I get extremely emotionally overwrought at times. DS who is totally logical and non-emotional and was hospitalized for 3 weeks earlier this year for suicidal ideation per H's opinion clearly got his mental illness genes from me (I'm bipolar per H, my mom was broken- MDD, a hoarder; and my dad is a former alcoholic with strong NPD characteristics).

Retrouvaille gave H some communication tools so that he is much less likely to escalate our conflicts than he used to be.

The big difference between your M and mine is that the sex is "on" and H fits Longwalk's assessment:



LongWalk said:


> *Sex solves all problems *for many men.
> 
> If you have good sex, then he will feel balanced because you surrender.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Was the clothing incident before or after she lost her sister?

Was this the daughter that looks like her sister who died tragically?


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

john117 said:


> Loved your post, Blonde. I've suspected CSA all along but she really never lived around male relatives or friends except immediate family - and I kinda doubt it.
> 
> Interesting J2 focuses on one daughter only. The other is 'golden'... Makes me wonder.


Grasping at straws here. Your wife's sister, who looks like your oldest, died in the midst of a PA and the presence of her OM. I could imagine (yes, only imagine) your wife might view her sister's behavior that led to her death as "****ty".

Is it possible your wife has linked her deceased sister somehow to your oldest, and is trapped obsessing and feeling anxiety trying to keep your oldest from having the same fate?

People make the strangest associations, which feed into debilitating obsessions and anxiety. A sudden and violent end to a sister, and seeing a daughter grow into a young woman -- one that looks very much like the lost sister -- wouldn't even be that strange, imho (says the guy that formerly was figuratively paralazyed by germophobic and safety fears when his own oldest daughter was born). 

I wonder how much your wife is burdened by what ever is going on inside her. Do you think anxiety drives her behavior? Anger? Or, simply indifference to others and/or a lack of self-control?


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

john117 said:


> The problem is I know as much about her childhood as I do about Opera. Not a whole lot. I've met her mother once, father 5-6 times, don't speak the language (they speak some Arabic plus their local language), never been to her country, you get the idea.


Not sure you need to know the details really? Just realize and have compassion for her wounds and scars which are sensitive to her. Her unmet needs from childhood are safety and respect. 

If my H or kids make fun of me or mock me, I am like a turtle, I withdraw into a hard shell. Under those circumstances, I feel disrespected and unsafe with them, so I will withdraw. My kids know not to direct cutting sarcastic humor my way.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

John,

I am very uncomfortable that you use your wife's income and professional success to "prove" that she should be able to be perfectly functional in personal life.

My dad has a Midas touch- developed real estate empires where ever he moved and left each of his 4 ex-wives better off financially... but it proves nothing about how he managed his personal life.

Maybe your W focuses on career success because it is her only source of validation? IME healing comes from having emotionally safe relationships (GF's and a counselor in my case. My H is not emotionally safe)


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Blossom Leigh said:


> Was the clothing incident before or after she lost her sister?
> 
> 
> 
> Was this the daughter that looks like her sister who died tragically?



After and yes.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Blonde said:


> John,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm not using it to prove anything other than she has enough of a mind working to get work done. 

Career, indeed, is her only validation. She has no gf's and no counselor so I have to play those too. Healing? Good luck with that  emotional safety? Overrated.

You can blame BPD up to a point but there's someone actively fighting any course of action other than maintaining status quo.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

> emotional safety? Overrated.
> 
> You can blame BPD up to a point but there's someone actively fighting any course of action other than maintaining status quo.


^^ projection IMO

I hear that YOU don't care about or value emotional safety and that YOU are vested in the status quo.


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## GA HEART (Oct 18, 2011)

In regards to the original post, I definitely understand what you are saying. I have long suspected my exH of having BPD, but he will never get diagnosed. (Yes, he is text book. TEXT BOOK.) Does this make me an "armchair phychiatrist?" Perhaps, but perhaps I am right. But the actions of others can definitely cause "emotional problems."

When my ex and I had our nasty split, I moved in with my best friend. This gal knows me better than anyone on the planet (including my ex.) After a few weeks of living there, she pointed out that I had what she called "pre-emptive freak outs." She said that I would get VERY upset at a small thing, blow it way out of proportion, and then rant about it for longer than needed. She said that wasn't like me, I am typically a laid back person. Now she knew I was under an extreme amount of stress at the time and thought that had something to do with it, but after witnessing it happen during a phone call with my ex, she figured it out.

My ex used to blow up over the tiniest things. The kids and I would be perfectly happy, doing what we do, and sometimes we had no clue what would set him off. Unknown to me at the time, over the years I developed the "pre-emptive freak out" as a form of diverting. If I could freak out before he did, his freak outs wouldn't happen. His freakouts involved emotional abuse to the kids. Mine involved me ranting like a lunatic (NOT a good example for the kids, but at least I kept the focus on myself.) During the last several years of my marriage, I'm sure that *I* could have been the one who was labeled as someone with a personality disorder. 

Once my bestie (LOVE that gal!) pointed it out to me, the "pre-emptive freak outs" stopped. Immediately. Gone. Once I became aware of the reasoning behind them (IT MADE SO MUCH SENSE,) I never felt the anxiety rising like that again. I never once "pre-emptively freaked out" again. (You can ask her, I swear it's the truth! LOL!)

Anyway, YES, people don't need to be so quick to label someone with a pshyciatric disorder unless diagnosed. I think there is a picture going around facebook that says, "Before you go and have yourself diagnosed with depression, make sure that you are not, in fact, surrounded by @ssholes." I think that says a lot right there.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

john117 said:


> After and yes.


How soon after?

Was that out of character for her or did she behave like that prior to?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Blonde said:


> ^^ projection IMO
> 
> 
> 
> I hear that YOU don't care about or value emotional safety and that YOU are vested in the status quo.



Because I'm the one without a choice perhaps?

If I valued my emotional safety over my kids future maybe... I don't.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Blossom Leigh said:


> How soon after?
> 
> 
> 
> Was that out of character for her or did she behave like that prior to?



A half year maybe. It was out of character in terms of frequency and intensity. I can understand parents freaking out one in a while but when it's daily and for BS reasons it's not difficult to see the pattern.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Daily prior to 2007?

or daily after 2007?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Beginning in late 2007 almost daily to daily. Finally my daughter went to IC from 2008 to 2011. 2007-2008 was the compassion years, diagnosed late 2008 iirc, 2009 - 2010 were the combat years, also when her mother passed away (2010) and she spent a month back home; 2011 she changed jobs and more compassion and support from me, 2012 was a neutral year, 2013 was more arguments than peace and 2014 started with more niceties for a few months - last chance - and a state of detachment. Intimacy pretty much went downhill from 2011 on. 

I pretty much figured out the marriage was toast in June 2012 in Alaska during the infamous cruise bar scene .


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

lol.. I'm afraid to ask.


Do you feel she ever recovered from losing her sister the way she did?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Not really. Sis was married, divorced, and married again to a rather not so good guy. He had blatant affairs and she decided to have one with a guy half her age. While traveling to an interesting spot the OM rolled the car... 

Equally fvcked up circumstances when her mother passed away in 2010. Long story short, she had every disease known, made everyone's life miserable, so they decided to "run out the clock" if you get my drift.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

john117 said:


> Not really. Sis was married, divorced, and married again to a rather not so good guy. He had blatant affairs and she decided to have one with a guy half her age. While traveling to an interesting spot the OM rolled the car...
> 
> Equally fvcked up circumstances when her mother passed away in 2010. Long story short, she had every disease known, made everyone's life miserable, so they decided to "run out the clock" if you get my drift.


Yep. Got it.

Wonder how much her job is affecting the sex life.

What triggered that decline.

Since we are talking seven years of traumatic residual behavior, what was she like before 2007. Do you think facing the pain of intense trauma is what keeps her away from dealing with it?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Prior to 2007 she was quirky but normal. Always a hard worker, never a devoted or patient parent, but she enjoyed a lot of things like trips, exercise, cooking, art, and landscaping.

Intimacy was not the barn burner variety but was decent.


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## Flying_Dutchman (Oct 29, 2014)

GA HEART said:


> When my ex and I had our nasty split, I moved in with my best friend. This gal knows me better than anyone on the planet (including my ex.) After a few weeks of living there, she pointed out that I had what she called "pre-emptive freak outs." She said that I would get VERY upset at a small thing, blow it way out of proportion, and then rant about it for longer than needed. She said that wasn't like me, I am typically a laid back person. Now she knew I was under an extreme amount of stress at the time and thought that had something to do with it, but after witnessing it happen during a phone call with my ex, she figured it out.


Smart friends rule! Buy that girl a bottle of wine.

They're starting to categorise the symptoms of carers - "pre-emptive freak-out disorder" is worthy of a place among them.

An armchair diagnosis of a new disorder - and it's perfect.

Now we need to find someone else who has it and see how it progresses if they go stay with a dumb friend. 


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

john117 said:


> Prior to 2007 she was quirky but normal. Always a hard worker, never a devoted or patient parent, but she enjoyed a lot of things like trips, exercise, cooking, art, and landscaping.
> 
> Intimacy was not the barn burner variety but was decent.


Makes me sad for her.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

john117 said:


> Prior to 2007 she was quirky but normal. Always a hard worker, never a devoted or patient parent, but she enjoyed a lot of things like trips, exercise, cooking, art, and landscaping.
> 
> Intimacy was not the barn burner variety but was decent.


It always seems to start with quirky....


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

honcho said:


> It always seems to start with quirky....



Lolz

It's really about knowing enough of the culture that you can identify such things. She and I are from different continents, different languages, socioeconomic backgrounds, and so on. It was all quirk all the time.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Blossom Leigh said:


> Makes me sad for her.



Same here.... We could have a hell of a good time the next 20 years if she would only get out of the fog enough to smell the roses. That's what's bugging me to no end.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

john117 said:


> Same here.... We could have a hell of a good time the next 20 years if she would only get out of the fog enough to smell the roses. That's what's bugging me to no end.


Does she know that? That that is your desire?


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## GA HEART (Oct 18, 2011)

Flying_Dutchman said:


> Smart friends rule! Buy that girl a bottle of wine.
> 
> They're starting to categorise the symptoms of carers - "pre-emptive freak-out disorder" is worthy of a place among them.
> 
> ...


I owe that girl my life. Literally. We had been a state apart for several years prior to that and hadn't seen each other in person as often as I had wished. We still talked regularly though. I took her on an all-paid vacation cruise last year (yay tax returns!) I tried to give her my firstborn, but she refused him. :scratchhead:


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## Zouz (May 28, 2014)

John , 

Irrespective of the disorder name , it must be obvious by now that your wife have a trauma in her life ; What I am learning now is that Trauma affects people differently .

It doesn't matter how strong , educated we are ; the psychic , social or religious effect on human has no rules ...

take for ex a Yezidi who are a minority group in the world :

they are unable to step out of a circle traced round them on the ground; it might look absurd but It was interresting to me that even an educated yazidi will not dare to escape the circle by forcing it ; to succeed he /she will work on identifying a hole or weakness in the circle .

What I want to say ,it doesn't mean that you have to pay the price for having a trauma in her life , and doesn't mean you are wrong in your acts , nor it means that you should give uncondional love .

it means that if deep in your mind , heart and soul ; if all your previous attempts didn't take into consideration the trauma ; that starting point of any solution is is healing from her trauma , then all attempts are in vain .

the first attempt is not now to fix her BPD ; 

the first attempt now is to assist her to heal from her Trauma ....
Also the help shouldn't come diectly from you , she should find it herself ...

SO , John , why is she unable to get over it ?

- embarrasment caused by her sister" mistakes ? destroying her image (especially her image in front of you maybe ) or what ?

- do you have any idea why she didn't recover ?

speak up Dr john , what do you know about it ?


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

My gut on why she doesn't pursue it is the intense pain.

She is running from the pain.

Leaving a wake behind her.

John may have a different opinion... that's my educated guess


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## Zouz (May 28, 2014)

From where is your wife exactly ; is she religious ?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Easy answers. 

She never recovered because she never went thru the grief process. Too angry. 

She refused any type of support other than eternal what if discussions about how to skrew everyone else up inheritance wise.

She's not religious by a lot of her family are. She's from one of the -istan Central Asia dictatorship / semi theocracy type places.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

john117 said:


> Easy answers.
> 
> She never recovered because she never went thru the grief process. Too angry.
> 
> ...


If you don't mind me asking before the death was she quick to anger also? This was always one of my stbx "quirks" her first instinct when things didn't go her way or stress was to go to anger. When her grandmother passed away it was very similar she never dealt with the grieving, stayed angry for a long time and went straight to the inheritance fight and wanted more than anyone else because she was closer to her grandma than her siblings. They fought for almost a year about stuff and junk.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

People from her culture are in general quick to react. A LOT of her behavior seemed different because, well, duh, the Asian steppes are not quite the same as cosmopolitan Europe. In contrast I am very deliberate, calculating, etc. 

Since BPD she has a much harder time regulating emotions and has to be reminded of expected behavior on occasion.


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## Zouz (May 28, 2014)

When you say "never went thru the grief process." what exactly you mean , didnt she cry over her , is it because she feel betrayed because of the harm caused by her ?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Zouz said:


> When you say "never went thru the grief process." what exactly you mean , didnt she cry over her , is it because she feel betrayed because of the harm caused by her ?



Yes. Her sisters death really tore the family apart. Her parents were upset that they lost a source of retirement revenue, her husband was upset because he had to raise his own daughters ... 

From my understanding the sister was the only relatively normal in the family.


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## Zouz (May 28, 2014)

john117 said:


> Yes. Her sisters death really tore the family apart. Her parents were upset that they lost a source of retirement revenue, her husband was upset because he had to raise his own daughters ...
> 
> From my understanding the sister was the only relatively normal in the family.


John , 

Is there anybody in her country who can help you with something ?


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## Zouz (May 28, 2014)

I mean , if your wife receives a call from somebody like requesting from her that she contribute in an aniversary to forgive the sister...
or raising a fund to do to something good ... I don't know .

In such a situation what would your wife response be ....


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## Zouz (May 28, 2014)

what is the religion of your wife ?


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## Zouz (May 28, 2014)

because depending on religion there are sometimes certain celebration to remember or gratify someone" memory .


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

It's complicated. Half her family is Muslim, half is not. Her sister and mom were, not everyone else. This made inheritance issues even more entertaining. 

But my wife was never the religious type so I doubt that is the reason.

I just read a semester paper on Islamic theology and philosophy by my older daughter... Some of those guys really spent a lot of time on the subject


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## Zouz (May 28, 2014)

I mean your wife needs to forgive her sis for messing up her image by now ; would she accept to do something in that direction ; have u ever discussed it with her ?


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## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

jld said:


> I think the reason we hear so much about BPD on TAM is that it draws immediate sympathy for the man. There really seems to be a lot of sympathy for men who are perceived to be suffering, helpless victims of women on TAM, BPD or otherwise.


 Most men that come here ARE helpless victims from abusive and suffering marriages. As it was once pointed out to me one time, there is indeed a forum here for long term success in marriage. But considering the amount of posts from that forum vs any other is not even a drop in the bucket in comparison. Most people in happy marriage do not look outside to talk about how good their marriage is, they simply live and live well. The vast majority of men though that are here are either in the middle of a crisis or problem or have been thru it before. 

So why is BPD now the flavor of the moment for issues in marriage, especially adhered towards woman as being primarily the reason for most, if not all problems?

Well lets look at the very numbers here. As indicated and agreed upon actual BPD cases affect about 2 to 3 percent of the country. Given that I am willing to bet that TAM has had at least 1 million visitors world wide then the sudden "Flavor" being talked about is supported by the number of posts compared to the population available to the internet. 1 percent of the U.S population is 3.3 million. The amount of posts about BPD is say a few thousand at most, lowering this percent of possible posted cases about BPD to about 0.0012 percent of 3.3 million. So the large amount of posts may not be as extreme as it seems and once again supports this 2 to 3 percent range of U.S cases. Considering the internet is available globally it is also feasible to say these few thousand posts about BPD is against a population amount of 3 billion cognizant internet user involved in a relationship or marriage.

Men who are with a woman, GF or Wife, has the advantage of being exposed to his SO in her rawest and truest form. Uptown will agree and attest that most, if not all BPD'ers can and do function quite well in public as they are able to perform unattached to the very people they associate with. In private though the men associated with these women get to experience her at home nature. Domestic disinterest, walking on eggshells, constant rage and aggression no matter what the conflict is or how major or minor it is. Instantaneous rage, threats of violence, Divorce, suicide, etc. Men who are praised one moment and then damned the next, black-white thinking, and are indoctrinated into thinking this is normal of HIS fault. And since he cannot bring these issues up to his SO for conversation due to these very attributes becoming active he ends up wondering if it is indeed his fault and simply tries to overcome these issues with tolerance and acceptance.

It also seems that the sudden rise in cases of BPD can be directly linked to a particular time frame or era of inception. As more people are being diagnosed with BPD between the ages of 20-35 one can point out that maybe social status, diet's, education, parental involvement, entertainment mediums and economics have played a part into the ability for BPD to flourish, which is a permanent behavior trait that can be subdues by therapy and not medication. These people cannot self sooth or deal with adult emotions or situations with ease or at all. In short, they still have the development and tempement of a child. 

Men are also taught through the media, peers, and other venues that a woman being angry or insulating to her husband is normal and acceptable. Given that during the split white feelings he may receive from time to time he then becomes willing to do whatever she needs or wants to earn the "White" thinking and affection, tolerating any mistreatment he receives as "Part of the goal process". Being manly, macho or assertive in the public eye of the feminine world is usually frowned upon as immature or childish. 

And lastly, JLD if I may;
One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trust ability, and she can relax. -- David Deida,

This statement alone is what gives man the misperception that his female SO is not only allowed to act in any way she wants, destructive or otherwise, but she is encouraged and SUPPOSED to do so as she pleases, consequences be damned. One cannot dismiss the fact that physical actions are dictated by emotional aptitude and feelings with only instinctual as a last involuntary response. This quote was also cited by a man, who more than likely was educated to accept this perspective from a woman.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Nailed it. After describing my wife to the therapist during my daughters IC the therapist requested to talk to her. Initially she thought I was making things up etc or acting inconsiderate. Not the case...


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

Zouz said:


> When you say "never went thru the grief process." what exactly you mean , didnt she cry over her , is it because she feel betrayed because of the harm caused by her ?


In my stbx case the family knew her grandmothers time had come, it wasn't unexpected. My stbx cried when she found out and felt sad but never dealt with the actual loss. She never let her grandma go, my wording isn't probably the best but its hard to describe. 

Her mother is the ice queen and dictator of that family, in all the years I knew them I never once saw her hug any of her kids or tell them she loved them. During the entire funeral/wake and the days that followed she was just emotionless and the rest of the family seemed to feed off that. 

They all seemed to just take the attitude she wasn't around, lets divide up the stuff. Her family loved to argue, its what they did best and were starting to argue the day after the funeral about who would get what. My stbx was bring carloads of stuff home, almost all worthless junk, 20 year old magazines, old clothes and it all became like a shrine. Everytime we discussed getting rid of the stuff or doing something with it all I ever heard from her was "That's grandmas" like it was some untouchable family treasure yet most of it sat in the basement in the very place I unloaded it 10 years earlier. 

She couldn't deal with the stuff because that would mean she would have to deal with the loss of her grandmother.


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