# Drowning! No rescue!



## LVS

WHYYY? 
I have no clue what to do!!!
I found myself with all my power so weak!!!!
Finally after almost 1 year and a half of civil divorce, he is about to succeed to drag me back!!! 

What can I do?????


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## This is me

Maybe you need some IC?


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## Uptown

LVS, what's going on? Why are you so distressed?


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## LVS

He called me tonight at 11 30 pm begging me to not sleep before he come and talk to me, he was crying on the phone and saying it is over now and my life is gone. I was scared i asked him what happened and he kept crying and begging me to wait for him, he was driving so fast. I asked him to slow down and promised to wait for him.

He is sleeping in his car since April 30. This morning he told me that he lost his money in gambling. and he has no money to pay his bills. So when he called me tonight i was scared that maybe he did something illegal and the police after him, I contacted his brother who came to the parking lot by my apartment with his friend and remained in his car hiding and waiting for his brother to come. 

My exh was looking terrible. He was crying and said he withdrew money from his credit card and lost them in gambling. He was weeping like a child.
Than he started begging and asking me to consider him like my dog and to let him stay in my apartment he said he will stay away from me he won't bother me he just need to stay all the time with the kids.

He was depressed and desperate and this was his last hope to try and he said no other choices for me either you let stay with you or i am going to kill myself. I was telling him that no way for me to go back to him especially to a depressed unhappy person. All what i said didn't help and he seemed more depressed and said he is going to die no reason to live. I asked him to go and sleep and i will talk to him tomorrow.....

After he left, his brother and his friend who heard the conversation started telling me that it is a matter of life and death and i don't want to be accompanied with the guilt feeling all my life if something bad happened to him. And they started convincing me to give him this last chance.

They said to accept his offer and be his roommate. just to allow him to be with his kids and watch him closely so i can see that he changed. 

They said i can put my own conditions to allow him to stay and it is very important to give him this chance, He already changed but i can't see it until i give him this chance. His brother said that he learned the lesson of his life and he will never be acting like he was before


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## dormant

Don't buy in to it. He is just trying to manipulate you. I too have used his rationale to get my way, but would really have done it.


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## LVS

GUILT is following me everywhere!!!! 
I feel i am stuck this time i can't run away.
He was so depressed, he seems loosing every hope i am scared to keep going He might not harm himself BUT
No one will forgive me if something happened to him not even my kids


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## dormant

I understand, and that is what he is counting on. You have to stay as strong as you can. If he can see the threat of suicide gets a response from you, then he will continue to use it. 

I've had depression for a lot of years. I had my first suicide attempt nearly 20 years ago. As you can see, I backed out. The threat is an attempt to gain attention. 

I know it seems cruel but, in my opinion, in most cases it is best to not react. Take the position, just do whay you think is best. If you tell him that, thhere's a good chance he'll stop using that ploy.

I'm not saying that the though never crosses my mind any more, but I don't use it as a ploy to control any one now.


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## LVS

He always threatened to commit suicide but now he seemed more depressed and i am afraid of this responsibility on my shoulders.

dormant do you mean i need to tell him there is a good chance to go back to him in order to stop him


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## LVS

What also scares me that in time of depression people may commit suicide especially when they lose hope.

For us, i am Catholic and the annulment is not granted yet and it may take long time which allow him to keep trying to get me back.

I am overwhelmed and exhausted I need exit to not go back to him. I wish we had things in our marriage encouraging me to go back and dream back of a happy marriage but i know if i go back it means i am giving up ME, every dream and every hope, and all the hard work i did till now, i don't know how much i can keep going this way, NOT MUCH.

Also if i decided to go back it should never be because i am pressured or out of fear of him committing suicide.

I know what i was asked to do was IRRATIONAL!


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## daisygirl 41

Please don't get dragged back in here honey.
If its such a desperate situation then tell his brother or his friend to take him in.
It's NOT your responsibility to keep on rescuing him. He is a grown man!
Please stay strong and put yourself first for a change.
X
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

LVS said:


> GUILT is following me everywhere!!!!
> I feel i am stuck this time i can't run away.
> He was so depressed, he seems loosing every hope i am scared to keep going He might not harm himself BUT
> No one will forgive me if something happened to him not even my kids



Stop trying to convince yourself . He is a big boy he knows what he is doing , let him live his life as e chooses.

Your focus is on you , you family and no one else , he is no longer part of your family.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PBear

Why can't he stay with his brother and friend who heard the whole conversation? One of them is his blood relative, for crying out loud...

What would you do if a stranger came up to you and threatened suicide? If you feel his suicide threat is real, an appropriate response is to call 911 and tell them your husband is threatening to kill himself.

What you're doing, if you take him in, is enabling his bad decisions and showing him what he needs to do to manipulate you. If that's what you want, carry on.

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LVS

daisygirl 41, Eli-Zor, and PBear I agree with what you said thanks.

But i feel scared of the thought of *"What if he really ended up killing himself"* How can i be sure if he is going to do it or not i know he is trying always to manipulate me but talking about killing himself is not cool, he is so depressed and dragging himself more down by gambling and losing his money He also borrowed money from his other brother and lost them in gambling
He was not a gambler!!! so he is using also the self destruction to pressure me he won't care for anything if i don't go back to him....

He said THIS IS WHAT YOU DID TO ME and i said THIS IS WHAT YOU DID TO YOURSELF. Life is a matter of choices i picked my choices and i am responsible of them and you picked yours and you are a grown man stop acting like a child and hold responsibility for your choices...

He was offered to live with his daughter, he was also offered to live with his other brother at his mother's house while his mother was out of town, until she comes back he was supposed to be able to rent another apartment. He refused, his excuses were first, our D24 is living alone in her apartment and when he asked her long time ago to live with him she refused, so he doesn't want to live with her. Second, he doesn't get along with his sister who lives with his mother and he calls her as crazy, third he doesn't get along with his other brother because as he said he is the craziest of the family and he can't stay with him one day. Also, he doesn't speak with his brother the one who was talking to me because, as my exh said, his brother said bad things about me that's why he fought with him.

I told him "like you can't live with your family i can't live with you because you are also like them (CRAZY) ( i said that because he was hitting his head and hitting his car and crying also because of our history together) and you can't blame me if i refuse to have you back, he said but i changed why wouldn't you give me a chance to prove it and make it up to you. I said i can see you and i know you never changed and you are still blaming me for your unhappiness, if i want to think to have you back i will never think to be back to someone depressed, unhappy, unstable, and doesn't know how to live... Take care of yourself and stand up on your feet and then come back to me with no promises i will think then about your request, plus THEN, maybe you will change your mind and think that you deserve better....."


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## Uptown

LVS, I agree with Dormant and the other posters that you should not allow him to pull you back into living with him. Yes, there is a risk he will harm himself. But life is full of risks and that risk will always exist. My BPDer exW, for example, used to walk to a nearby tall bridge, knowing that I was following protectively behind. When I stopped following her to the bridge, she stopped going there.

Instead, she started going to the nearest subway platform, where she would call me, tell me she was going to jump in front of the next train, and hang up. I ran down to the subway on two occasions. When I stopped responding on the third occasion, she stopped doing that too.


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## LVS

Please I need your help to think more clear disregarding his threats. I just posted a new post.http://talkaboutmarriage.com/considering-divorce-separation/48794-roommates.html 
Will you please give me your opinion?!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LVS

He is expecting me to talk to him tomorrow!
i have no idea what to say or how to find the exit of this situation with less harm to anyone


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## Eli-Zor

LVS said:


> He is expecting me to talk to him tomorrow!
> i have no idea what to say or how to find the exit of this situation with less harm to anyone


It would appear no matter how many times you are advised not to be involved with your husband or be dragged into his mess you are going to go ahead and talk to him. Your not emotionally strong enough to handle his manipulation. 

There is only one person today that can help you and that is yourself. Don't talk to your husband, you know he is going to convince you to let him back into your life and bed . Once this happens your world is going to go though trauma , what's next? You pay his gambling debt.

LVS: Please listen, your emotional and mental well being is dependent on you keep NC with your husband and all his shenagins.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LVS

Eli-Zor, you are right as well as all the other posters, I really appreciate your helpful posts i needed them.

I was soooo overwhelmed between my responsibilities, my jobs, and what happened. I wasn't able to have clarity of mind.

Eli-Zor, you are also right, I am not emotionally ready to handle his manipulations. I am not ready to any other man in my life i need to care of myself.
I was supposed to contact him today but i didn't want too and i feel much better.


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## LVS

Today his brother's friend (M) called me (the one who heard the conversation with my exh). He said he met my exh yesterday and spent 6 hours talking. (shake my head)

M was asking me to forgive my exh and give him one last chance, I said i forgive him i pray everyday for him i care for him but i can't live with him. He said if he get help and changed won't you go back to him? I said i left him because i lost every hope of the marriage and was about to lose hope in life. I hope he will get help and change for himself and for his kids. 
M said he is going to contact him and offer him support if he is willing to get help and he asked if i agree that he mentions that he spoke to me. I said if you want his benefits you should not put my name in your conversation because this is going to give him a false hope plus if he tries to change because he hope to go back to me then he will never change at the opposite he will pretend that he changed but this won't last... the real change happens when he really wants to change for HIMSELF and this is going to take years of treatment because he has a severe depression and disorder starting since his childhood...


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## PBear

Thumbs up on your response! Good luck! As far as the roommate thing goes, I really don't see what the benefit is to you. If you want a roommate for financial reasons, pick one who's not loony and doesn't empty their bank account gambling. If you want one for emotional reasons, get a dog. Either way, there's many reasons why he's your ex, and it's time for him to grow up and take ownership of his issues. Maybe in 3 to 5 years, you can go out on a coffee date.

C


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## EleGirl

If your ex was going to kill himself he would have already done it. When a person actually wants to commit suicide they just do it. He wants attention. He wants to guilt you into taking him in. Instead of trying to be a better person, this is his plan to get you back.

Please do not fall for this. It will put you and your children through hell. 

If he tells you that he intends on killing himself. Tell him that you will call 911 and have them pick him up and check him into a mental health facility. You will see how fast he changes his tone. And if he does not.. .then let them pick him up and put in the mental ward for a few days.


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## that_girl

My grandmother passed away last month.

She and my grandfather had been married 63 years when he passed 8 years ago. 

They were Catholic. 

He was a drinker...was abusive (my mom remembers) in the early part of their marriage. We had no idea what else went on, it was their marriage...right?

Well, my mom found journals of my gramma's. She talks about wanting to leave. She talks about divorce but how she couldn't because she was a "good Catholic woman". 

She stayed in this abusive marriage until he died and it sucked her soul.

We didn't know this until the journals. 

She had dreams! Dreams he squashed. She had unfulfilled needs. Needs he wouldn't meet. She resented her marriage, her children, her whole life.

From the outside, they were just two old people who had been married a long time. Yay!  Not really. From reading her journals, my mom and I are learning a TON about this woman we never knew. A woman who let her religion basically keep her from living a fulfilling and loving life.

DO NOT BECOME my grandmother.

Catholicism is a bunch of rules created by people. Do you honestly think God would want you to suffer? Catholics don't believe in karma or past lives, so I won't go there...but as a Catholic, is it being a good Catholic to ruin your children's lives? Is being a good Catholic worth your soul?

You are not drowning. There is a rescue. It lies within you. You can save yourself. You can unwash your brain and realize that this life is meant for living. It's not meant to be someone's object of abuse. If you think that makes you a good Catholic, to be a martyr, then you are sadly mistaken.

Sure, divorce is frowned upon in "The Church" but this is NOT their lives! How hypocritical can a religion be? Shuffling child molesters from one church to another, but you can't get divorced without a clear conscience? That's crap.

YOU are in charge here...and if you so believe, so is God. All sins are equal in the eyes of the Lord, so i can't imagine divorce would weigh any more than lying to your neighbor or having lustful thoughts about that hot barrista.

Try to calm yourself so you are thinking with a clear head. Time to put on your big girl undies and stand up and say NO MORE! Take back what you've lost and accept that this is not working.

How "Catholic" is he to hold this above your head? Rules of religion piss me off. They are nothing more than a way to control the masses, and in this case, the rules are controlling your life.

You can only control yourself. You can only change yourself. You can choose to detach from him or you can choose to let him come back...but that's YOUR choice. he cannot make you do anything you don't want to do.

In regards to suicide, most people use it as a ploy to get people's sympathy so they can manipulate and twist fate the way they want to. I have known many people to say they were going to kill themselves...and they don't. I have had 2 people commit suicide, and it was without warning.

Do not let him manipulate you. Be in control and make your own choices. What those choices will be, i do not know. I do suggest some therapy for yourself as you seem to have trouble knowing your self worth.

Good luck and God bless.


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## EleGirl

that_girl said:


> My grandmother passed away last month.
> 
> She and my grandfather had been married 63 years when he passed 8 years ago.
> 
> They were Catholic.
> 
> He was a drinker...was abusive (my mom remembers) in the early part of their marriage. We had no idea what else went on, it was their marriage...right?
> 
> Well, my mom found journals of my gramma's. She talks about wanting to leave. She talks about divorce but how she couldn't because she was a "good Catholic woman".
> 
> She stayed in this abusive marriage until he died and it sucked her soul.
> 
> We didn't know this until the journals.
> 
> She had dreams! Dreams he squashed. She had unfulfilled needs. Needs he wouldn't meet. She resented her marriage, her children, her whole life.
> 
> From the outside, they were just two old people who had been married a long time. Yay!  Not really. From reading her journals, my mom and I are learning a TON about this woman we never knew. A woman who let her religion basically keep her from living a fulfilling and loving life.
> 
> DO NOT BECOME my grandmother.
> 
> Catholicism is a bunch of rules created by people. Do you honestly think God would want you to suffer? Catholics don't believe in karma or past lives, so I won't go there...but as a Catholic, is it being a good Catholic to ruin your children's lives? Is being a good Catholic worth your soul?
> 
> You are not drowning. There is a rescue. It lies within you. You can save yourself. You can unwash your brain and realize that this life is meant for living. It's not meant to be someone's object of abuse. If you think that makes you a good Catholic, to be a martyr, then you are sadly mistaken.
> 
> Sure, divorce is frowned upon in "The Church" but this is NOT their lives! How hypocritical can a religion be? Shuffling child molesters from one church to another, but you can't get divorced without a clear conscience? That's crap.
> 
> YOU are in charge here...and if you so believe, so is God. All sins are equal in the eyes of the Lord, so i can't imagine divorce would weigh any more than lying to your neighbor or having lustful thoughts about that hot barrista.
> 
> Try to calm yourself so you are thinking with a clear head. Time to put on your big girl undies and stand up and say NO MORE! Take back what you've lost and accept that this is not working.
> 
> How "Catholic" is he to hold this above your head? Rules of religion piss me off. They are nothing more than a way to control the masses, and in this case, the rules are controlling your life.
> 
> You can only control yourself. You can only change yourself. You can choose to detach from him or you can choose to let him come back...but that's YOUR choice. he cannot make you do anything you don't want to do.
> 
> In regards to suicide, most people use it as a ploy to get people's sympathy so they can manipulate and twist fate the way they want to. I have known many people to say they were going to kill themselves...and they don't. I have had 2 people commit suicide, and it was without warning.
> 
> Do not let him manipulate you. Be in control and make your own choices. What those choices will be, i do not know. I do suggest some therapy for yourself as you seem to have trouble knowing your self worth.
> 
> Good luck and God bless.


There is nothing in Catholicism that even suggests that she would have to let an abusive, mentally off husband back into her home. 

I have had priests tell me that my only option was to leave my husband and that divorce & annulment would be supported by the Church.


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## that_girl

That is good to hear. All I ever hear from my Catholic friends who had marriage problems is to 'tough it out', and I'm not kidding.

Well, then her husband is just trying to manipulate her, which should make her choice even easier.


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## LVS

that_girl said:


> My grandmother passed away last month.
> 
> She and my grandfather had been married 63 years when he passed 8 years ago.
> 
> They were Catholic.
> 
> He was a drinker...was abusive (my mom remembers) in the early part of their marriage. We had no idea what else went on, it was their marriage...right?
> 
> Well, my mom found journals of my gramma's. She talks about wanting to leave. She talks about divorce but how she couldn't because she was a "good Catholic woman".
> 
> She stayed in this abusive marriage until he died and it sucked her soul.
> 
> We didn't know this until the journals.
> 
> She had dreams! Dreams he squashed. She had unfulfilled needs. Needs he wouldn't meet. She resented her marriage, her children, her whole life.
> 
> From the outside, they were just two old people who had been married a long time. Yay!  Not really. From reading her journals, my mom and I are learning a TON about this woman we never knew. A woman who let her religion basically keep her from living a fulfilling and loving life.
> 
> DO NOT BECOME my grandmother.
> 
> Catholicism is a bunch of rules created by people. Do you honestly think God would want you to suffer? Catholics don't believe in karma or past lives, so I won't go there...but as a Catholic, is it being a good Catholic to ruin your children's lives? Is being a good Catholic worth your soul?
> 
> You are not drowning. There is a rescue. It lies within you. You can save yourself. You can unwash your brain and realize that this life is meant for living. It's not meant to be someone's object of abuse. If you think that makes you a good Catholic, to be a martyr, then you are sadly mistaken.
> 
> Sure, divorce is frowned upon in "The Church" but this is NOT their lives! How hypocritical can a religion be? Shuffling child molesters from one church to another, but you can't get divorced without a clear conscience? That's crap.
> 
> YOU are in charge here...and if you so believe, so is God. All sins are equal in the eyes of the Lord, so i can't imagine divorce would weigh any more than lying to your neighbor or having lustful thoughts about that hot barrista.
> 
> Try to calm yourself so you are thinking with a clear head. Time to put on your big girl undies and stand up and say NO MORE! Take back what you've lost and accept that this is not working.
> 
> How "Catholic" is he to hold this above your head? Rules of religion piss me off. They are nothing more than a way to control the masses, and in this case, the rules are controlling your life.
> 
> You can only control yourself. You can only change yourself. You can choose to detach from him or you can choose to let him come back...but that's YOUR choice. he cannot make you do anything you don't want to do.
> 
> In regards to suicide, most people use it as a ploy to get people's sympathy so they can manipulate and twist fate the way they want to. I have known many people to say they were going to kill themselves...and they don't. I have had 2 people commit suicide, and it was without warning.
> 
> Do not let him manipulate you. Be in control and make your own choices. What those choices will be, i do not know. I do suggest some therapy for yourself as you seem to have trouble knowing your self worth.
> 
> Good luck and God bless.


Thanks for sharing and sorry for your grandmother

Similar to your grandmother life, i was raised that no matter what the marriage needs to be for ever and the family comes first and this is what made me stuck for all these years BUT it was false way of raising and thinking about the marriage and the religion we all know that God loves us and wants us to be happy.... 

I have these documents i would like to share 
the first says that the abuse in all its forms break the marriage
the second talks about the grounds of annulment in the Catholic church 

USCCB - (FLWY) - When I Call for Help: A Pastoral Response to Domestic Violence Against Women

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annulment_(Catholic_Church)

In my case they set the ground for annulment:
*Defect of consent on account of grave lack of due discretion in the part of the petitioner.*

Now because my exh refused the annulment and the judgment therefor after they finish their judgment which going to take around 4 months more or less, they will need to send it to another diocese to restart all the process and as the priest told me after the second diocese makes the judgment if my exh do not agree with it they will send it to Rome to restart all the process and investigation. However, the only way that makes the process shorter is for my exh to admit the judgment and let me go, which is not going to happen.


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## Eli-Zor

LVS said:


> Today his brother's friend (M) called me (the one who heard the conversation with my exh). He said he met my exh yesterday and spent 6 hours talking. (shake my head)
> 
> M was asking me to forgive my exh and give him one last chance, I said i forgive him i pray everyday for him i care for him but i can't live with him. He said if he get help and changed won't you go back to him? I said i left him because i lost every hope of the marriage and was about to lose hope in life. I hope he will get help and change for himself and for his kids.
> M said he is going to contact him and offer him support if he is willing to get help and he asked if i agree that he mentions that he spoke to me. I said if you want his benefits you should not put my name in your conversation because this is going to give him a false hope plus if he tries to change because he hope to go back to me then he will never change at the opposite he will pretend that he changed but this won't last... the real change happens when he really wants to change for HIMSELF and this is going to take years of treatment because he has a severe depression and disorder starting since his childhood...


You gave a great response , the only other suggestion is for you to block call from and go NC on anyone who has contact with him . He is using them to get to you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LVS

Eli-Zor said:


> ... the only other suggestion is for you to block call from and go NC on anyone who has contact with him . He is using them to get to you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Can i go NC with my kids those the most people he is trying to manipulate and use to get to me


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## LVS

My kids are paying the price....
My exh was expecting me to talk to him during my days off of work as i told him but i didn't and i wasn't feeling comfortable to talk to him after his threats.
Today he tried to call me i didn't pick up, he called my D19 and told her that he is waiting for me in the parking lot since i didn't call him so he needs to talk to me.
I texted him and said that i won't be able to talk and that i will email him later.
He kept calling and calling and calling and leaving voice messages... In one of them he said either i answer or he will come up knocking my door until i open it... I texted back that i have appointment and I am leaving and that i will email him later.
I had the appointment with my therapist so i had to leave knowing that he might stop me but i had to go.
He walked toward me asking me why i am doing that to him and ignoring him, and he was yelling and speaking very very loud, I said i have appointment and i need to leave and i don't feel comfortable to talk to him in person. He was raising his voice more, I asked him to lower his voice he refused i was closing my ears because it was irritating them. He kept yelling very loud and blocked my way i couldn't drive, I asked him to move he refused and kept yelling 
I told him you have no right to talk to me this way plus i am not your wife anymore. 
He screamed, you are my wife against your will. 
I said only on the church papers. 
He said you are my wife in front of God...
I left while he was threatening to kill himself..
I called my D19 to tell her to not answer his phone but it was late she was down there talking to him.

Later I knew from her that he called her to say bye and that he is going to kill himself, he also said the same to my S14. Both my kids ran to him to stop him from leaving then he said he is going to wait 24 hours but if no changes he is going to kill himself. He also called my D24 and told her the same.

I feel bad for my kids he is manipulating them and hurting them deeply

My S14 was asking me why i don't go back to his dad in my hands his life why would i let him die and that he changed and to let him at least be my roommate he won't act like the past he is different person now.... I told my son i love his dad but i can't live with him anymore. He said he doesn't want his dad to die. I told him can you do anything to change the situation he said no, i said what you can't change just pray about it and God will deal with it and will help you to feel better... I also told him i can't help your dad he needs to help himself and he needs professional help....


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## Eli-Zor

> Later I knew from her that he called her to say bye and that he is going to kill himself, he also said the same to my S14. Both my kids ran to him to stop him from leaving then he said he is going to wait 24 hours but if no changes he is going to kill himself. He also called my D24 and told her the same.


He is a class act, he has done little of nothing to improve himself and show he is attractive to you. 

Council your children and ask them not to take his calls as he is manipulating all of you. Remind yourself as he sprouts the religious jargon of being married in church he conveniently forgets according to his faith killing himself is not sanctioned by the church. 

Everyone can see though him, distance yourself and your children from him for your own safety.


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## Eli-Zor

> In one of them he said either i answer or he will come up knocking my door until i open it... I texted back that i have appointment and I am leaving and that i will email him later.
> I had the appointment with my therapist so i had to leave knowing that he might stop me but i had to go.
> He walked toward me asking me why i am doing that to him and ignoring him, and he was yelling and speaking very very loud, I said i have appointment and i need to leave and i don't feel comfortable to talk to him in person. He was raising his voice more, I asked him to lower his voice he refused i was closing my ears because it was irritating them. He kept yelling very loud and blocked my way i couldn't drive, I asked him to move he refused and kept yelling


Change the game and go to the police and find out what you can do to have harassment charges laid against him and in future call the police when he is there screaming at you. Stop returning his text messages, he plays up because he knows you will respond. 


You gota toughen up girl , this guy is bad news and is not going to go away until you force the issue.


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## PBear

Can you start carrying a VAR to catch his threats on "tape"? And be willing to call the cops if he's going to stop you from leaving your place again or if he gets threatening to you or your kids. And I would agree that he's not doing anything that should make you think he's a suitable "roommate"! Extending his suicide threats to the kids is a real classless move.

The one thing I'd suggest you to stop doing is stop lieing to him about being in touch with him. If you're not going to call, don't tell him you'll call him. Oh, and can you afford some family counseling? It might help the kids understand what's going on and let them talk about the situation with someone who's not involved

C


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## PBear

Btw, what does your therapist say about all of this? Really, shouldn't she be a good source of ways to deal with this, rather than a bunch of untrained anonymous people on the Internet?

C


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## LVS

My therapist as well as the priest said i need to contact the police the situation is not cool and he needs help even though they are both thinking he is manipulating but it is obvious that he has a severe depression.

He gave 24 hours time limit to give my answer by accepting him in my apartment otherwise he will kill himself that's what he told my kids.
My kids all of them are asking me to accept him as roommate they don't want him to die and they don't want me to call the police


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## Eli-Zor

I am sure your kids mean well , your husband is pushing their buttons and they are his puppets . Even more of a reason not to have him near you, the man has a bad case of no-good in him.

Be strong , he is not your worry. Stick to the words as a husband he is supposed to protect and support his family. He has done neither , he does not even have the self respect to fend for himself and evidence he can be a loving husband.

The good news he is an ex , let him remain so. To back to basics and focus on yourself, he is taking up way to much of your time . You've done well so far and as the days pass you will get stronger.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LVS

I am so tired, lost, confused, scared...
Is there any exit if i don't want to contact the police?


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## LVS

There is a possibility that he might harm himself i am in a very tough situation and my kids are scared to lose their dad it is only in my hands to help that to not happens


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## Eli-Zor

LVS said:


> I am so tired, lost, confused, scared...
> Is there any exit if i don't want to contact the police?


The police are there to protect you, I think you should not be sharing these conversations with your children. Simply call them and report him, the police will deal with him as per the law.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LVS

What if he denied it in front of the police or he promised he is not going to do it and then later committed suicide


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## WhereAmI

It is NOT your responsibility to keep him alive. His constant abuse of you and your children has led you to believe his life is in your hands. You cannot stop him from harming himself, he's made these threats for as long as you've been posting on this forum. Please inform the police when he threatens to commit suicide or abuses you in the future. If there are no consequences for his behavior he will never change.

Your children are likely becoming codependent because of this relationship, so make sure they're seeing someone suited for this issue. In addition, make certain that your home is secure and that you have the means to defend yourself and your children if necessary. I'm fearful that your XH would harm you and your children before taking his own life, if it ever came to that.

Please reinstate NC. Make it clear to all family/friends that NC means they are not to pass on messages for your XH. If they don't listen, they should no longer be welcome in your life. Your XH has NOT changed. I know you see that. PLEASE PROTECT YOURSELF!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PBear

Again, l'll suggest family counseling so EVERYONE understands the situation and what your husband is doing. You can't be totally responsible for someone else's mental health! Caving in to home is NOT going to solve the problem.

Does your husband have a therapist?

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LVS

Yesterday I called a crisis hotline for suicide prevention. I spoke to a counselor who was very supportive, he also spoke to my kids it was very helpf!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LVS

I spoke to my brother who lives in Paris, my brother told me later that he called my exh, he told him that it is totally wrong what he is doing to himself and to the kids. He also told him that it is not ok to force me to take him back.
My brother suggested to ask me if I agree to do family therapy, my exh said he would do anything if he has a hope that I will go back to him. My brother said no promises about anything.
I called my exh and agreed to do the counseling. My exh said I will do the impossible just give me a hope I said don't ask me more then what I agreed to do. The counseling as my brother said is to help us to deal with each other in respectful way also to deal with our kids in better way. No need to ask me more, you are emotionally not feeling good and I feel the same so whatever you want more you need to ask it to the therapist not to me.

My point is he is severely depressed and he is not getting any treatment so by starting this it is a first step where the therapist might offer him what he needs and as my brother said he will tell the therapist his goal (get me back) and I will tell her my goal (for him to learn how to talk to me when he has to deal with me and how to deal with the kids and not manipulate them, also to help him to move on with his life without me, and get help and support needed to not harm himself)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PBear

Maybe I should have been more clear... When I mentioned family counseling, I was referring to you and your kids. But if it works with your ex as well, more power to you all, I guess. And if it moves him to getting the help he needs, that's great!

C


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## LVS

C, I called the Catholic charity and i told them my goal also i mentioned his threats, they suggested that it is better to do couples therapy and if we need we can come different day for family therapy but i think i can't handle seeing him two times a week. I need to breathe and this is enough for me i wouldn't do it if i wasn't pushed to it... 
I hope, even i can't hope a lot with him, but i still need to keep that hope, so, hopefully, this is going to give me some time of peace until i can find better solution to the situation. 

Also what i did is something positive in front of my kids... 

My fear is that he might try to show everyone the nice guy to make more pressure on me so everyone will think he really changed, but i have no other solution at this moment..


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## that_girl

Call the cops. They'll put him on suicide watch.

I can't belive he's dragging the kids into it.


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## LVS

Eli-Zor you are right also he is taking too much of my time. I don't feel i want to give it to him.

WhereAmI what you said and always uptown and everyone assisting me keep saying it, it is true he is manipulative, he didn't want to suicide. He called my sS14 today amd told him that he just said that because he was so sad bt he was not going to suicide.
Ii will make sure the therapist will hep to ask him to not get mad if i don't answer his phone calls I need to remain NC with him as everyone suggested and it's enough the time i am going to give for the therapy.


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## LVS

that_girl I believe the couples therapist is going to be a great help for me in this point. Very soon they will know how unstable he is and if he threatened again they will report it.


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## Uptown

LVS said:


> that_girl I believe the couples therapist is going to be a great help for me in this point. Very soon they will know how unstable he is and if he threatened again they will report it.


LVS, how is a report from the couples therapist better than a report to the police from you, backed up by voice recordings (e.g., on the phone) of said events? I ask because, in my 15 years of experience with MCs and ICs, I found the marriage counselors to be absolutely useless when you have a BPDer partner.

Although the ICs can be extremely useful when a BPDer works hard in therapy for several years, I would be surprised if as many as 1 in 100 BPDers are willing to do so. Even when they stay in therapy -- as my BPDer exW did for 15 years at enormous cost to me -- many of them only play mind games with the therapist. This is why I regard Pidge to be one of those rare gems who have the self awareness and ego strength to stay in therapy long enough, and to work hard enough, to make a difference.


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## PBear

Pretty hard to be NC when you're in couples therapy, innit? The time for couples therapy was back when you were a couple, not after your divorce. Unless, of course, you don't want to be divorced...

C


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## LVS

How do I feel? Overwhelmed, trapped, sad, and heavy weight over my chest, with tears held back in my eyes all the time.


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## LVS

PBear said:


> Pretty hard to be NC when you're in couples therapy, innit? The time for couples therapy was back when you were a couple, not after your divorce. Unless, of course, you don't want to be divorced...
> 
> C


No it is not a marriage counseling and they said couple counseling is not only for people who want to be together. I told them i don't want to go back to him i also told them about his threat to suicide. I told them my goal is to help him to move on with his life without me and to deal better with the kids and respect my boundaries. And first thing i want to request is that our contact will be limited to the therapy sessions.


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## LVS

Uptown said:


> LVS, how is a report from the couples therapist better than a report to the police from you, backed up by voice recordings (e.g., on the phone) of said events? I ask because, in my 15 years of experience with MCs and ICs, I found the marriage counselors to be absolutely useless when you have a BPDer partner.
> 
> Although the ICs can be extremely useful when a BPDer works hard in therapy for several years, I would be surprised if as many as 1 in 100 BPDers are willing to do so. Even when they stay in therapy -- as my BPDer exW did for 15 years at enormous cost to me -- many of them only play mind games with the therapist. This is why I regard Pidge to be one of those rare gems who have the self awareness and ego strength to stay in therapy long enough, and to work hard enough, to make a difference.


I can't say anything, i totally agree with you. I wish i thought to record him on Monday when he was yelling and screaming at me by my car.  

I was telling my friend coworker today when she was askiing me to keep hope i said that I am losing hope of the counseling that it is going to help in anything but trap me more with him and give him more power... I said that now as i am looking back to my experience with him i can picture what he is going to do... The same like your exw uptown mind games to the therapist and to everyone we know starting with our kids to prove that he is getting treatment and getting better and i should take him back.


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## Uptown

Yes, LVS, the MC is just another trap IMO. It is in your best interest to complete the annulment. If he has the self awareness and ego strength to go to an IC for several years and change his behavior -- an extremely unlikely event -- you can always remarry him later. Remember, IC also will be totally useless if he is not doing the therapy for himself, out of a strong desire to get well. Hence, if IC is going to work, it should work even though you are not living with him. He must do it for himself, not for you.


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## LVS

Uptown said:


> Yes, LVS, the MC is just another trap IMO. It is in your best interest to complete the annulment. If he has the self awareness and ego strength to go to an IC for several years and change his behavior -- an extremely unlikely event -- you can always remarry him later. Remember, IC also will be totally useless if he is not doing the therapy for himself, out of a strong desire to get well. Hence, if IC is going to work, it should work even though you are not living with him. He must do it for himself, not for you.


Sometimes i wish i don't have kids with him i would be gone to a different state or somewhere where i can move on with my life and i don't need to be in contact with him for any reason 

I feel always that i am still trapped.

Uptown you said * you can always remarry him later* when i read something like that i feel pain in my heart and short of breath, I don't want to go back to him this is how i feel and i feel so bad that i don't want to reconcile even if one day he came to me the man of my dreams...


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## Uptown

LVS said:


> Uptown you said * you can always remarry him later* when i read something like that i feel pain in my heart and short of breath, I don't want to go back to him this is how i feel and i feel so bad that i don't want to reconcile even if one day he came to me the man of my dreams...


LVS, yes, I said you always have that option in the very unlikely event he greatly improves. I am NOT saying, however, that it would be wise to go down that path, given the nearly-30 years of pain that man has caused you. The pain is now so strongly associated with him that, whenever he is present, you will automatically feel in great distress.

It reminds me of how my mother used to "cover up" the awful taste of caster oil by putting it in a glass of orange juice. Although she stopped giving us cater oil by the time I was 12, I was unable to drink orange juice until I was in my thirties. Similarly, I loved raw beets so much that I gorged on them at the age of 8 -- to the point of having a terrible stomach ache the rest of the day. I therefore couldn't stand to be in the same room with the smell of beets until I was in my 40's.

My point, then, is that your exH -- due to his 30 years of abusive and belittling behavior -- is the equivalent of orange juice and beets for you. Importantly, that bad feeling is an instinctual, protective feeling that is essential to your survival. Hence, there is no reason -- absolutely no reason at all -- you should feel guilty about wanting to avoid him and never see him again. On the contrary, that is a strong sign of emotional health, IMO.


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## LVS

Uptown you are correct and you gave me a perfect example you inspired me to mention this pain it in the therapy session I said that i don't hate him as he always says i forgive him i pray for him but i don't need to live with him. Also i don't try to be rude or mean when he tries to talk about going back to him but what provokes my reactions is the pain that is associated to him every time i hear his name or his voice or see him all the pain from the past years come back to me.(same as you said Uptown) I mentioned about Pavlov theory about stimuli and response in the trials the dogs would be exposed to the sound of the metronome at the same time the food would be presented to them and after being exposed to several trials the dogs associated the sound of metronome to the food and every time the dogs hear the sound they start salivating as response. And this is how i feel with him PAIN.


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## LVS

Yesterday was our first couples therapy. The therapist asked about our purpose of doing this therapy.

My exh said that what happened last week opened widely his eyes and life is short and doesn't worth to live in drama.... He said he mistreated me a lot and i was patient until i couldn't handle anymore so i decided to leave him. He also said that he will always keep the hope for me to go back to him but he can't force me to do so and if one day i want to marry someone else i am free to do it... He said he was dealing with selfishness before now but now he changed and just want me to be happy ( i feel it is a new way to show everyone that he changed. or maybe someone suggested to him to give me distance because the way he is acting is pushing me away)

I said i recall when i first left you you said the same thing and that what happened opened your eyes also you said it in different occasions but nothing changed.... He said no this time is totally different and by you speaking to your brother and by him contacting me it made a lot of changes in me. :scratchhead:

Anyway i said i am here because i am following a suggestion from my brother who spoke to my exh last week when my ex was in very bad emotional situation. So i accepted to come here so he can move on with his life and when he has to talk to me it should be with respect and not involving the kids in our problems.

He was so positive talking very nice and also said that it wasn't right to get the kids involved .

After the therapy session he told me that he is honest about all what he said and he discovered lately that two of his cousins have terminal cancer it is sad and life is short to live it in drama

I want to believe him but with all the history together i can't do that i will wait and see.

I also will try if he can get to IC that way i don't need to be with him


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## LVS

Update
I forgot to mention that my exh, after my brother spoke to him and i agreed to the family therapy, he is no more sleeping in his car, he started staying at his mother's apt. (now he can stay there)

My D24 came to visit yesterday after spending some time with her brother and sister with their father. They said their father looked soooo happy!!!!
I said i wonder why he is so much happy. I told my kids what he said in the therapy session and i told them what is my goal from doing therapy. My kids didn't comment but seemed confused... 

My D24 asked me if i agree to go meet with them at her apt next week all my ex in-laws and my exh are going to visit her and celebrate all together her 25th birthday. (I was planning to take my kids and go to visit and celebrate with her on the same day)  I said: "i can't go bc it will be understood that i am trying to fix things and go back to your dad"

My D19 said you can call dad and explain your point so he won't hope for anything... I said if i say it day and night he won't change what he is hoping to get. 

My D24 said: " think of it mom i don't want to pressure you but it will be good to have you sharing this time with us...."

I know you readers and posters on my thread see clearer the situation, any input is appreciated!!!


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## Uptown

LVS, I agree with you that your D24 should plan to celebrate the day separately with you and your Ex. Other families deal with this by having two separate meetings on a day. Big events like a wedding, of course, would be handled differently.


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## LVS

I haven't spoke to my D24 yet but i am sure i am not going to join my exh and his family.

Tomorrow the second Therapy session even it is something that is going to help me to get what i want but i am not looking forward to go, all the process is frustrating me...

I want to talk little bit about my feelings. All what i am going through is adding more stress, insecurity and desperation to my life.

Today i was feeling frustrated and sad. I need to move on with my life and i am stuck and it seems for a long time, I need to get over with the annulment and this process is not going to end IF it is going to end!!!, I started feeling resentment toward one of the most valuable things in my life which is my church, I need to cry and i am holding back tears, I need to enjoy life and i don't have motivation.... Those thoughts are drowning me in a deep sorrow.

All what i am struggling in are giving me this fear that it's a matter of time and i will be going back to my exh. I am spending lot of time thinking how to try to accept this faked fact BUT by thinking this way i feel more sadness, losing interest in everything and not looking for any bright future...

Thanks for your time reading and/or posting in my thread...


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## Uptown

LVS said:


> Tomorrow the second Therapy session even it is something that is going to help me to get what i want but i am not looking forward to go, all the process is frustrating me...


I continue to believe MC is pointless and harmful to you. If your H is a BPDer as you suspect, MC is useless. His problems go far beyond the lack of communication skills. He needs IC with a psychologist with adequate training. If your H is committed to working on himself -- very unlikely -- such a psychologist will not need your help. On the other hand, if your H is not committed to working on himself, the psychologist will not be able to help him even with your help.


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## vi_bride04

No advice here except stay strong and focused on what is right for you

If you have those feelings in your chest, anxiety, crying when you think of being with him again, you KNOW YOU SHOULDN'T BE WITH HIM.

I have those same feelings thinking about R with my STBXH. When I imagine him coming back asking for a second chance my chest tightens up and I become paniced. I don't ever want him to ask for a 3rd or 4th chance anytime soon b/c I know I am too weak to not give him ANOTHER chance. 

I hope in the next year I can be just as strong as you to turn him away if he does ever come crawling back.


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## jtut21

Stay strong and follow the wonderful advice that everyone is giving you. 

All the best,

Josh


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## LVS

Today was the therapy session. My exh was late for therapy so I had some time alone with the therapist who was asking me some details about his suicidal threats.
When he came she asked him about how he was planning to suicide and he spoke about the illnesses that he has, Tumor in his brain, high blood pressure, triglyceride, and stomach pain and he said if he stopped taking any of his medications that he should take daily he will have serious problems that will lead to death...
Then he started talking about his childhood and how his dad affected all his life (Those points are important in his IC i see them waste of time in our session, don't you see that?) he was talking and talking till the end of the session....
The therapist said next week we will be talking about your goals from doing therapy.

Since she didn't ask him, i did. I asked if he tried to find IC, he said he tried but they didn't answer him yet.
Then I asked her if she does IC, she said yes. So I suggested if she can do IC for him, if so i stop coming to the therapy session, since I am also doing IC 
She said she is going to ask at the office about it and will let us know next session.
My exh was questioning me if i am avoiding to meet with him in one place. (It's like he doesn't know, not only that also my goal is to get him to IC).She said that next week we will address this point.

After the meeting he asked me to talk bc he has important subject. I was listening to him but couldn't look at him i was facing the wall. He said that ALL what he is saying he really means them and in the past his first priority was to bring me back to him BUT now it is his second priority and the first one is my HAPPINESS, he said that i have suffered enough for 28 years now it is time for me to be happy and what he is seeking right now is to do anything to make me happy? WOW WHAT A HUGE CHANGE IN ONE WEEK? ( I've been sarcastic)
He also said that he FIXED his relationship with his brother and sister and also he called my parents and APOLOGIZED about all what he did wrong??? hmmm

He also said that he wants to help me financially so i don't need to work several jobs so i can give more time to the kids. Also he asked me to make a list weekly so he can do the grocery shopping (I feel puzzled, all the positive things at once) He also asked me if i accept to go to my D24 Birthday Party on Sunday I said no i don't feel comfortable to go. and meet the whole family (plus how can i stand seeing him all this time)
I said that he is burning steps and he wants to fix everything one time which is not going to work.
I also said maybe after the annulment is over i might have back a relationship with them and i said if you are really honest about the changes in you so why would you make the annulment last longer. He said can you call them for me, and let them know i want to change my testimony. (REALLY!!!! i can't believe what i am hearing)

Even though a lot of positive progresses but I feel so frustrated!


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## Uptown

> Even though a lot of positive progresses but I feel so frustrated!


LVS, I'm sorry but I just don't see the "positive progress" you speak of. Indeed, I don't see ANY progress. As you know so well, it is typical for BPDers to make dramatic "improvements" every 3 or 4 weeks. In ten seconds, they will flip from splitting you black to splitting you white. And then they will flip back to black again just as quickly. True change takes years of therapy and your exH hasn't even _started_ IC yet. I therefore believe this MC game is harmful to you and of no benefit to him.


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## LVS

WELL Uptown, you are right. Maybe i used the wrong expression, i should have said Positive Actions. Because he is not only saying them but also acting on them at least for the moment.

I called my brother in Paris, who had contacted my exh and suggested the family therapy. I spoke to him about my fear and concerns, He said that i should not be negative and i should not also talk to him in rude way. Because he is trying to do nice things so i should not pressure him because this is the best way to reach what i need which is GET TO A POINT WHERE WE CAN COMMUNICATE IN A DECENT WAY FOR THE BEST OF THE KIDS. (he is right)

My brother the monk said that what i am doing is not wrong and what i am feeling might be correct but no one is going to pressure me to go back to him so all i need is to work on my emotions to not feel frustrated... (and he is right)

BUT i can't help it, I AM FRUSTRATED!!

In my analysis, my exh knows what he is doing, and my gut feeling tells me that it is a different way to pressure me to go back to him.

Based on what?! 

He is doing very fast and big changes. (like if he wants to fix everything with everyone before the annulment is granted. By doing so he will have more people on his side)

Within one week he went from fixing relationship with his brother and sister and talking with my kids in a very different and happy way to calling my parents and apologizing to them, to telling me that he is not going to pressure me to go back to him anymore and whatever i want to do is going to happen, he is going to cooperate with the annulment process and he is going to give me money to support me and also shopping for me...

"Killing me softly with his love" :scratchhead: I feel i am going to choke! Is it a miracle?!!! (sorry for the sarcasm)

Definitely and unfortunately, he is not yet on the right path to help himself changing. That was so obvious to me when he said, * (((My first goal now is YOUR HAPPINESS you suffered enough for 28 years it is time for you to live happily. I WILL BE PROTECTING YOU as long as i am alive and whatever is going to MAKE YOU HAPPY I am going to do it.)))*

With all what he said he means to say* I am still hopping to have you back, I am not going to leave you alone, I will be checking on you all the time, you are mine and no one else is going to approach you because i am protecting you. *In different words* HE IS STILL FOCUSING ON ME INSTEAD OF FOCUSING ON HIMSELF AND HIS HAPPINESS.*

Any insight!!!


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## Uptown

> GET TO A POINT WHERE WE CAN COMMUNICATE IN A DECENT WAY FOR THE BEST OF THE KIDS. (he is right)


I disagree with your brother. If your H is a BPDer as you believe, his problems -- such as his inability to trust, inability to regulate emotions, lack of empathy, lack of emotional development, and enormous anger -- go FAR beyond a simple lack of COMMUNICATIONS. 

His thoughts are distorted by his intense feelings. He therefore has a distorted perception of your intentions and motivations. Perhaps I'm wrong but my experience is that improving his communication skills -- if it makes any change at all -- will just make him better at manipulating you until all those other issues are addressed.


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## August

LVS,
I am new to this forum but certainly not new to life and have had relationships with BDPs and NPDs and have learned quite a lot through the years.

I could NOT agree MORE with Uptown! He is right on with absolutely everything he has said.

Your H is so manipulative it makes my head spin! he tried the histrionics and realized it only scared you. Remarkably he has risen from the ashes...WOW! Not only has he become incredibly stronger Suddenly his personal "panic" and *selfish* harassment of you has transformed into a *selfless* concern for you bordering on self sacrifice. Wha???? he has to be kidding! But he has you so confused and so frightened he is getting what he wants...you are not to blame, you are a victim!

STAY AWAY! You have NO reason to have to endure HIS therapy with him! You want this OVER! Give him and inch....I have made that mistake over and over!

I can't believe how others have suggested you take in a man who is threatening to KILL himself, who has gambled away everything...into the same house with your kids???? 

Stay strong...and Uptown is right! your H has made NO positive changes...he is just wearing a new mask!


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## sisters359

LVS, you are exactly right: He has switched tactics to try to suck you back in.

Please get a restraining order that prevents him from having any contact with you, even through a 3rd party. Discuss with legal representatives whether you could have this order include the kids. Right now, he is ruining their lives--and it can be permanent. Unless and until they are old enough and well-informed enough to understand how sick he is, they should be protected. Please, please, please consider this.

My ex also threatened suicide, twice. I had to get to the point where I could accept that it was beyond my control and NOT MY FAULT if he did. The thought of having to guide my kids through the death of their father was--is--heartbreaking, but I know I would do it if I had to. The only guilt I feel is that I chose to have children with a man who might do that to his kids.

Both times that he threatened suicide, I took him to the ER and made it their problem. If he had done it again, I would just call the police--they are required to take the person to the ER for an evaluation. I simply made it very clear to my ex that his tactics would not work and if he wanted to punish the CHILDREN he claims to love, that would be his choice and it would have no bearing on me. It would just prove that I was right to leave him in the first place, b/c he was an incomplete person who refused to get help.

Happily, he didn't commit suicide. He just keeps finding other women to fill his life. When these relationships end, he is back in his "woe is me" spot--but he doesn't bring it to ME. He has not threatened suicide since Feb. of 2011, the last time I insisted he go to a hospital. 

I honestly think that true NC is best right now. You are simply being abused in a new and different way. Your kids should ONLY see him under supervision of a trained professional, to prevent him from hurting them further. God knows what he says to them in private. It will get worse again; he's proven that time and time again. 

I've followed your threads on these forums and trust yourself: you will *never* make the mistake of going back with him. You have learned so much and have grown so much--you are so smart!! Use that domestic violence hotline when you need to, keep up with the therapy, and get this man out of your life. With supervised visits for the kids, you would never have to see him again (have somoene else drive them). He would not be allowed to speak about you/the relationship, and so the kids would be protected from his sick way of seeing things. 

Keep it up; you are doing so much right, and it will lead you to the joy you deserve. God bless.


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## LVS

Update!
I had a frustrating week every time i think that i am going to be with him in therapy so i decided in my heart that the next session isgoing to be the last. Yesterday was the CT (couples therapy) session.

Yesterday he started IC.

T: I don't know if you both still need couples therapy? She addressed to me: lvs, what are your concerns of continuing couples therapy?

Me: Well he is acting nice in front of everyone he is showing everyone the positive change in him and that I am the one behind this happiness that he is living, and by maintaining this behavior for a while than it would be expected from everyone, including my kids, for me to go back to him since I have no reason to not do it. So this is another kind of pressure. There is something they all forgot about it---when enough is enough and when it is little bit too late!!!---This is one concern.
Secondly I don't see any point from doing this sessions now since I can see him showing so many positive things and that he is working on himself to change also as he said that he is willing to cooperate with the annulment process which brought me to a conclusion that things are going to be so much better when he continues doing IC because when he get improved we will be able to communicate in a more civilized way for the sake of the kids. (I just said as a reason for me to stop going).(I doubt it)
Third i need to move on and all what he did and even being around him prevents me from moving on with my life and taking care of my self growth. (the therapist was shaking her head agreeing with what i said)

Me: If I am doing couples therapy or not are you going to do IC
Ex: yes
Me: Even by not going back to you are you going to do IC?
Ex: yes it is for me to be a better person! (I really wish he is saying the truth)

T: IMO maybe you can go back to the CT after a while. I will be communicating with (my ex) T to see when the CT would work because now you still have a blurred perception about things and you are not admitting yet the situation. Let's say 4 weeks from now, I will be contacting lvs to see if it is convenient for her and what time she will be able to come to CT so you can both make arrangement about how you are going to deal with each other and with the kids ( I like that)

Ex: I can't say anything is wrong with what lvs said. She has right to hate me and not wanting to be with me in the same place. But I will keep hope maybe with 0.0000001% of hope that and after she deals also with her feelings and emotions with her therapist, and she can see some positive things in me maybe she will rethink it and go back to me.

Me: Two weeks ago, he was threatening to suicide, He also physically stopped me from leaving the parking lot with my car. Screaming yelling and blaming me for everything bad he is living. And now he is putting all the blame on himself and saying all the nice words about me, showing all the positive things, saying that he changed and that what happened opened his eyes and this time he is sincere.
All this switch between black and white, love and hate, bad and good, shows instability. Change doesn't happen 100% and doesn't occur between day and night. Real change happens with long time of treatment and willingness to change. I have been two years in IC and still have things to deal with.

Ex: I don't blame you if you don't believe me but just try to forget about the past, I am a different person now and everyone is seeing the change in me even my kids see me more happy person and different than before. (huh this is my point above)

T: Obviously you have a view point and she has a different view point. IC is going to help you indeed.

Ex: one more thing, it hurts me a lot not being able to be with my kids 24 hours a day. Their mom works several jobs and she doesn't have time take care of them.
T: Can you manage yourself to accept half time with them.

Ex: No I am not able even to have them half the time bc I am living with my mom.

Me: But renting apartment will allow you to be with them.

Ex: I can't live alone with my health conditions. Plus she is the one who took the decision to leave it is easier for her.

Me: He has mother and 4 brothers and sisters supporting him. When I toook the decision I was left alone in a strange place and I took this decision with all the risks. And if he is saying that he is the victim I say in his way no he pushed me to take it by doing all what he done to me I didn't have other choice than taking this decision. (He agreed lol)

Ex: I still have a hope and a request that she agrees like so many divorced couples to stay under the same roof.

T: What if she wants to date? Or you want to date?

Ex: I don't want to date any other woman. But if she wants to date I don't mind. Even I can bring him to her. (REALLY!!!)

T: YOU are going to accept that!!!!

Me: Ok let's say the OM doesn't agree with that or let's say I am going to marry!!

Ex: Then you give me the kids and I leave you, I won't accept any other man to raise my kids!

T: I know so many couples were able to stay together for the sake of the kids, but when emotional verbal or physical abuse are there then there is a line that have been crossed do you agree with that? 

Ex: Yes but now I am a different person then the one I was two years ago (I said you mean two weeks ago and the cycle keep repeating since years and years).

We left, He had to see his IC and I went back home. He said thanks for what you said today. You are helping me. I didn't get what he really meant behind those words.


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## PBear

I'd like to see the percentage of divorced couples under the same roof. I doubt it would qualify as "many"... And good job on holding your ground!

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LVS

Wow all this time has gone with a very limited contact.

Ex is doing now individual therapy. :smthumbup:

He is acting very nice with the kids not even trying to send me any message or talk to me!!! What are his future plans?? I just don't like negative surprises!!!! But i am not keeping it in my mind...

I need to enjoy the peace as long as it lasts, the past incident has exhausted me. 

Also i need to take out of my mind the thoughts of going back to him that keep chasing me from time to time, sometimes i feel like it is my destiny at the end of the road but as soon as i try to admit it in my mind, a wave of fear drags me into a deep sadness first bc it is just a dream, second bc i can't do it! 

Uptown I remembered your advice and turnera to read those books SO
Currently i am reading THE DANCE OF ANGER (wonderful book i would love to reread it but i am going to pass first it to my D19)
I also got STOP WALKING ON EGGSHELLS and I HATE YOU DON'T LEAVE ME.

Hopefully with the helpful tools in these books i will be able to move on with my life and to not fall into the same kind of people...


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## Uptown

LVS, thanks for the update. I am glad to hear that you are still making progress with moving on. If your exH makes progress -- and I sincerely hope he does for his sake -- it likely will take several years at the least.


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## LVS

Update
The couples therapist contacted me to set an appointment for me and my ex, on Tuesday at 3 pm. She said that she would like to know how much progress he is doing in the individual therapy.
To be honest at first i reacted defensively and asked her what is the point of going together, if she needs to know about him can't we discuss it over the phone?!
She said that maybe it is time to talk about an agreement of how to deal with each other regarding our responsibility toward our kids.


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## Uptown

Kids? WHAT kids? Your D is an adult and your S is a 14 year old adolescent who is almost grown up. Again, my experience is that MC is a total waste of time with a BPDer until he has had several years of treatment. Even then, the chances of substantial change are not great unless the BPDer is one of those rare self-aware individuals. My exW, who was not self aware, got 15 years of expensive weekly treatment -- at my expense. It did not make even a dent in her BPD traits.


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## LVS

Uptown said:


> Kids? WHAT kids? Your D is an adult and your S is a 14 year old adolescent who is almost grown up. Again, my experience is that MC is a total waste of time with a BPDer until he has had several years of treatment. Even then, the chances of substantial change are not great unless the BPDer is one of those rare self-aware individuals. My exW, who was not self aware, got 15 years of expensive weekly treatment -- at my expense. It did not make even a dent in her BPD traits.


:iagree: you are right they are adult. I hate to say it and you know i want to avoid meeting with him, but Uptown don't you agree that we need to discuss the issues in parenting for S14 in the presence of a third partie which is the therapist? And it's not marriage counseling ( i can't see it this way)
I have a lot of things that are happening and i don't agree with so at least one time i need to meet with him and the therapist and discuss them.


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## Dan Carruthers

Something apparently doubted to be fake,could be a true transformation...

and there are many marriages that overcame divorce and were re-kindled again.


nevertheless analyse comprehensively with enough time.


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## Uptown

LVS said:


> Uptown don't you agree that we need to discuss the issues in parenting for S14 in the presence of a third partie which is the therapist?


LVS, yes, I agree that it may serve some useful purpose if you believe it is important to discuss a particular parenting issue with him in the presence of a neutral third party. You just have to trust your own judgment on this. Over the past two years, it has served you well from what I've seen.


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## LVS

In the group therapy we discussed everything but the matter of parenting. 

The T asked my ex where is he now and if he is ready to discuss the parenting agreement. He said that in the past he was always blaming me and/or others for everything. Now he realized his mistake. He said all what happened was only his fault and that he was mistreating me, the rest of his life he is going to blame himself and try to make me and the kids happy... (immature opinion)

My analysis and my own judgment is that he is focusing on learning more about abusers and victims and how to get back a lost SO. But his knowledge is not internalized. So he seems in regret, but i still feel the instability and the fear within his unspoken words. It's like he is trying a new way suggested maybe by others or by the articles and/or books he is reading. He thinks the way he is using now is his last bullet.

I told him that he spent the first part of his life blaming others and he is going to spend the second part blaming himself. What happened it happened and there is noway to change it. He needs to embrace himself and quit focusing on my happiness because i am responsible of it, but he needs to focus on himself and how he can help himself to get over the situation and move on with his life to help himself to become happy... 

After the meeting, he left for his IT. I asked the therapist what she thinks, she said that she doesn't believe that he changed but he is in a place where i can communicate with him in more civilized way...

I told her how i feel about the group therapy and that it is not helping me to move on with my life, and i don't see a point from meeting together. The T agreed with me and said next week it is going to be the last session. She also said if in the future he didn't respect the agreement i can file for a restraining order....


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## Uptown

LVS, thanks for the update. Another MC meeting next week? Why??? The only justification given to you for going to last week's meeting was the big need to discuss parenting. Which was not discussed at all. Not at all.


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## LVS

Uptown said:


> LVS, thanks for the update. Another MC meeting next week? Why??? The only justification given to you for going to last week's meeting was the big need to discuss parenting. Which was not discussed at all. Not at all.


That's why i am going tomorrow because last week there was no time left to discuss the parenting issue. And i will make it clear to him that this session is going to be the last.


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## LVS

I would like to share what happened last week.

Ex contacted me last Thursday, he said that he got the settlement for his case against the company where he was employed.
He said he is going to open a joint account so i can have easy access to the money whenever i need for the kids... The main reason is that in case something happened to him, i can still have access to the money instead of the bank taking them. And that he only trusts me. (BIG WORDS)

My gut feeling read it this way(i am making a joint account with you so i can have easy access back to your life...)

He also said because the money presents a big temptation i asked them to put limit on checks so any check over certain limit it needs both signature. (I posted a thread to see others legal opinions about his request_

I went Friday to see the teller, I asked him how can i protect myself if he overdraft the account the answer was "there is no way"... and the limit on checks writing is not allowed. Also he said that my ex can put beneficiaries on his account.. I told the teller that i am not comfortable to open the account)

I called my ex and told him to find another way to solve his problem. Because if i agree to the joint account i will live an additional stress that i don't need. He said that nothing bad is going to happen and that he is different now and no fear of gambling anymore, why i don't believe him? i said it's not me it's YOU who don't believe in yourself, that's why you asked to set limit on checks to avoid temptation. Then i said it doesn't matter what you are promising now, this is how i feel and there is no way to help me reduce my fears....


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## Uptown

Sounds like you did the right thing when avoiding the joint bank account and the legal liability associated with it. One less trap to worry about.


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