# premarital finances



## j1806b (Jun 21, 2015)

My girlfriend and I have been dating off and on for three years. I love her and two boys, enjoy cooking and doing family matters. She has a house and so do I. I sleep there virtually every night or we sleep at my place. I have a studio and workshop at my place. We all eat dinner together every night. Sometimes she works for me in my business and cleans for me, I pay her an agreed upon hourly rate. I contribute to dinner financially and almost always we cook together. I pretty much take care of my business, laundry shower etc at my place. And I almost always pay for our activities dinner out etc. I do handyman repairs that are within the scope of my abilities which are pretty far reaching. She wants me to pay half of her household bills. She gets child support and does not have a regular job, her kids are 11 and 14 she’s able bodied and collage educated. I’m an artist/craftsman I explained my financial limitations when we first met. I don’t feel it’s fair for me to pay half of the household bills mortgage, electric tv etc. I don’t care about tv at all, they get many many channels and two dvr’s. She just recently brought it up again that she needs more money and if I would pay my fair share of the bills she would have more. I try talking to her but her feeling is if I love her and her kids I should be paying half of everything. But she doesn’t seem to be paying her half? I really want to work it out with her but don’t know what to do? Am I completely out to lunch or should I be covering half of these expenses? What is a good way to talk about it? I am very open to providing more insight if necessary. Thanks


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

I'm confused. So are you moving permanently into her place? Is that why this is a question? If you two are maintaining separate househokds why would you pay 1/2 her bills?


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## j1806b (Jun 21, 2015)

No I haven't completely moved in, I maintain my own place. It's a fixer upper, my idea is fix it up and maybe one day sell it. She says I essentially do live at her house and should pay half the bills. My feeling is there would be four people, why do I have the responsibility of paying her kids portion? From the get g,o she told me she had enough finances to cover her kids expenses. her expenses are tight, well mine are too. I would like to compromise and or talk it out. A lot of her money problems would be eliminated if she would work. I can give her work but I need to write off the labor and she gets angry that it's not fair for her to have to report income? I probably couldn't provide more than 6k a year of income to her. She says I am hateful when I bring up the topic of her working.But the underlying issue is what is my responsibility financially to her household if I'm eating dinner and sleeping over? I would like to have a permanent long lasting relationship with her but this money issue is hard to work out.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

How rude it is of her to ask you to pay half of her bills!!
I don't understand how some women are able to even think it, let alone say it out loud! 

Sorry, but if you're not living together, you don't owe her anything in this regard. Plain and simple!

Does she want you for you or for your money?


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

She wants to be a homemaker and she wants you to help her achieve that goal more comfortably. Do you want a woman who expects to be fully dependent upon you financially when you are not married to her? She is clearly not very concerned about your financial situation and seems to think you are withholding something that is due her.
Is this the kind of relationship that you dream of?


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## j1806b (Jun 21, 2015)

@lovelygirl 
I don't really have any money to speak of, so I don't think it would be very sensible of her to want me for my money. So my spending every evening and night at her place does not constitute living together? I'm just trying to understand? If I did live there had all my clothes there ate breakfast there etc, is it still reasonable for me to be expected to pay half of her expenses with her kids living there as well? I want to be fair and reasonable and understand the thing from both perspectives.


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## j1806b (Jun 21, 2015)

@CynthiaDe 
At what point in a relationship would I owe financial responsibility and to what degree? I hear what you're saying in your reply. Yeah I just don't have the financial means to give her money so she doesn't have to work. I mean if we were both contributing our finances to a goal, and I don't mean both must earn the same amount, it just seems fair under the circumstances, there should be a contribution from her, aside from child support after all that's child support not spousal support.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Well, do you pretty much live there, or not?

How many nights a week do you sleep at her house? How many showers a week do you take at her house? Are your electric and hearing bills lower because you aren't at your house using heat and electricity there? Where do you do laundry?

If you only maintain your place but pretty much live at her place I think you should contribute. It kinda depends on the answers to the questions...

Why on earth doesn't she work if her kids are those ages?


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## j1806b (Jun 21, 2015)

@Livvie,
I pretty much eat dinner and sleep there every night. I work at my place and keep the heat and cooling on 24/7 I typically shower at home before going over in the evening, I do my own laundry at my own house. I pay for food and drink for dinner/evening meal, we do not have a balance sheet running but I contribute my share to dinner for four. She frequently eats lunch at my place and showers here on occasion. I try to be respectful of her expenses, and realize the hidden costs like showering and stuff like that. And I pay all meals out, going out to music what ever. I'm willing to contribute, it just seems half is a bit much under the circumstances like I said the tv is a ridicules extravagance why should I pay anything for that I'm good with pbs;-). As to her work she's got a degree in environmental science hasn't worked at that since the kids were born went and got her teachers certificate except she dropped out by not completing the final stage of student teaching. Now she's on a month long yoga teacher training while her ex and I watch the kids. Listen I'm happy to do what I can but I have more time than money to give,

I really appreciate you all helping me thru this.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

j1806b said:


> @Livvie,
> I pretty much eat dinner and sleep there every night. I work at my place and keep the heat and cooling on 24/7 I typically shower at home before going over in the evening, I do my own laundry at my own house. I pay for food and drink for dinner/evening meal, we do not have a balance sheet running but I contribute my share to dinner for four. She frequently eats lunch at my place and showers here on occasion. I try to be respectful of her expenses, and realize the hidden costs like showering and stuff like that. And I pay all meals out, going out to music what ever. I'm willing to contribute, it just seems half is a bit much under the circumstances like I said the tv is a ridicules extravagance why should I pay anything for that I'm good with pbs;-). As to her work she's got a degree in environmental science hasn't worked at that since the kids were born went and got her teachers certificate except she dropped out by not completing the final stage of student teaching. Now she's on a month long yoga teacher training while her ex and I watch the kids. Listen I'm happy to do what I can but I have more time than money to give,
> 
> I really appreciate you all helping me thru this.


If you shower at your place, do laundry at your place, and pay for her meals out and entertainment, and she eats lunch at your place sometimes, I don't think you should contribute more at this time!


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

j1806b said:


> @lovelygirl
> I don't really have any money to speak of, so I don't think it would be very sensible of her to want me for my money. So my spending every evening and night at her place does not constitute living together? I'm just trying to understand? If I did live there had all my clothes there ate breakfast there etc, is it still reasonable for me to be expected to pay half of her expenses with her kids living there as well? I want to be fair and reasonable and understand the thing from both perspectives.


No, it's not reasonable for you to be expected to pay half of the living expenses.

1. You are right in that you are one person while the other "person" consists of one adult and two children. She is responsible for the costs of her two children via child support. And if that is not sufficient, she should get a job to help maintain her share of the living expenses.

2. Even though you spend much time at her place, you have you own place to maintain, so with that in mind, you are not actually living with her until you no longer have your own place.

3. It appears that she is also dependent on you for "other income" in that she will "work" for you and you pay her wages. In short, she is putting all of her financial needs in one "basket" (you). Are you comfortable with that?

Does she really want you around for you, or for the potential income you can bring into her household? You might want to reconsider your relationship if she intends to use you as her additional income instead of looking for a job to support herself and her children.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

j1806b said:


> @CynthiaDe
> At what point in a relationship would I owe financial responsibility and to what degree?


If you were making a problem with her grocery budget, then you would need to contribute enough to cover your food, but that doesn't sound like an issue. If you moved in, then you should contribute something, but not half since her children live there as well.
Your presence there is not increasing her electric bill. You might be using some water and garbage, but that wouldn't amount to much. I don't know that it would even make a difference.
She is trying to make you feel guilty for not helping her financially. It's not about you carrying your weight. It's about you not giving her money to help her be a homemaker.
I am a homemaker and have been for about 20 years, but I take care of my family and am a homeschool mom. This is a mutual decision between my husband and me. This is how we have chosen to live. Personally I cannot imagine having a boyfriend and expecting him to support me financially. What does she think you are - her sugar daddy?
I don't think you understand what she is looking for. She wants someone to pay her way and that someone is you.


j1806b said:


> I hear what you're saying in your reply. Yeah I just don't have the financial means to give her money so she doesn't have to work. I mean if we were both contributing our finances to a goal, and I don't mean both must earn the same amount, it just seems fair under the circumstances, there should be a contribution from her, aside from child support after all that's child support not spousal support.


Right. She doesn't want to contribute financially to anything. Apparently she expects men to do that for her.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Sounds like she wants you to help support her since her child support isn't enough and she doesn't want to get a job. 

Maybe you should start staying at your house and not hers.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

The thing about child support is that it is the non-custodial parent's portion of supporting the children. It is not meant to be the entire support for the children, as each parent is responsible for his/her share. She is not willing to be responsible for her share. She doesn't seem to think she has a share in financial responsibility for herself and her family.
I have known numerous women like this. They think that they should be home with their children and someone else should pay to make that happen.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Yes, I also have known women who felt child support was meant to take the place of a job (and basically their ex should continue supporting them -- or some other man should). Shaking my head.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

j1806b said:


> I don’t feel it’s fair for me to pay half of the household bills mortgage, electric tv etc.
> 
> Am I completely out to lunch or should I be covering half of these expenses? What is a good way to talk about it?


Seriously? Okay, fine. I'll be serious. Tell her it's not fair that you pay half her expenses. I mean, c'mon. Her kids aren't in diapers. She is educated. What the hell is she doing all day???

You are completely out to lunch BECAUSE you are covering half her expenses. An educated woman who is capable of working should be working. If she has been out of the workforce for an extended period of time, she may have to start at a low-paying position.

Heck, my first job after I walked out on my hubs - and had been out of work for three years - was a food stand in a mall food court.

Today, I am working full-time in a responsible position; granted, still not paying all that much but it's far superior to asking someone if they want large fries with their order.

It's one thing to love someone, but it's an entirely different matter to be an enabler. Or their knight in shining armor.

Time to sit down and have "the talk." I'd be most interested to hear her reasons for not working and expecting you to pay her way.


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## j1806b (Jun 21, 2015)

Well when I try to talk about it she says I'm being mean. Her perspective at least what she vocalizes to me is that I should be responsible and pick up the tab. And pay half the bills. I mean I love her kids, but going out costs a lot of money these days with two adults and two teenagers. Even if I did live there 100% should I b picking up half the tab? Wrestling with the money issue is sensitive, I told her I want to go to counseling for it, but she says she's already been to counseling and knows how to handle it, "she's never had this problem before with anyone not wanting to pay their share" I have a huge career event coming up in three weeks and changed my life around accommodating her schedule, its really bad timing for me to be dealing with this.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

You need to get this sorted asap and FWIW I think she is being unreasonable, her kids are not and should never be your financial obligation unless you choose to make it so. 

Second marriages have a higher rate of divorce than first, main reasons being issues around blending families/children and the other is money. You have big issues with money and if you do eventually live together full time you guys need to not only be on the same page but also to be able to communicate like adults. Her saying you are being mean is immature and I doubt very much that she has had decent counseling and "knows how to handle it". Handling it would mean that the two of you sit down together as adults and work this out, compromise, make sure it is fair and equitable. 

FWIW we are a blended family with 5 teens between us that also live part time with their other bio parents. Before we lived together full time he would pay for all our (he and I) dinners out, entertainment, drinks, weekends away etc. He stayed with me 80% of the time but I covered all my household bills.
When we started living together we began paying 50/50 for household expenses (bills and food) but he continues to pay for our (he and I) dinners out, weekends away etc. I own the house outright, have solar and water recycling so our weekly expenses are pretty low.
We share the bills 50/50 because we both have children that live in the house.

When we all go on major holidays we generally pay 50/50, I cover me and my kids, he covers him and his kids.

It was all discussed up front and we both feel we contribute equitably.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

j1806b said:


> Well when I try to talk about it she says I'm being mean. Her perspective at least what she vocalizes to me is that I should be responsible and pick up the tab. And pay half the bills. I mean I love her kids, but going out costs a lot of money these days with two adults and two teenagers. Even if I did live there 100% should I b picking up half the tab? Wrestling with the money issue is sensitive, I told her I want to go to counseling for it, but she says she's already been to counseling and knows how to handle it, "she's never had this problem before with anyone not wanting to pay their share" I have a huge career event coming up in three weeks and changed my life around accommodating her schedule, its really bad timing for me to be dealing with this.


I think if you rented out or sold your home and her home was the only residence you had, you should pay a fair share of housing costs which may or may not be half, how much is the mortgage? For instance if the mortgage is $800, an adult man paying $400 as his only housing cost seems okay. NOT her food or food for her kids, and I can't believe she consistently lets/expects you to pick up the restaurant tab. I think you should cover your fair share of the utilities, which would be what you use. 

I also think you should tell her you have never had the problem of a healthy adult woman not working full time...

In the end, YOUR share is your food, your utilities, and a percentage of the mortgage.


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## EnigmaGirl (Feb 7, 2015)

No self respecting woman would ask something like this.

She clearly has the expectation that she can sit around being lazy and not working and expect you to take care of her responsibilities. In my opinion, she's a leech and you should run....fast! 

You really shouldn't continue in a relationship with someone who's using you for money because she can't be bothered to have the dignity to be responsible for herself and her kids. It will only get worse if you marry her.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

j1806b said:


> Well when I try to talk about it she says I'm being mean. Her perspective at least what she vocalizes to me is that I should be responsible and pick up the tab. And pay half the bills. I mean I love her kids, but going out costs a lot of money these days with two adults and two teenagers. Even if I did live there 100% should I b picking up half the tab? Wrestling with the money issue is sensitive, I told her I want to go to counseling for it, but *she says she's already been to counseling and knows how to handle it, "she's never had this problem before with anyone not wanting to pay their share"* I have a huge career event coming up in three weeks and changed my life around accommodating her schedule, its really bad timing for me to be dealing with this.


Whoa! Between this, and the earlier posts on this thread... can you say gold-digger? CynthiaDe is right, she's looking for someone to maintain her lifestyle as a SAHM. She's found guys (exes) who have done it before, and I would bet money that those relationships ended when those guys realized that she was just in it for the paycheck.

You are NOT responsible for paying half her bills, and she is WAY out of line asking you to do so--let alone for her to presume that you SHOULD and that it's your RESPONSIBILITY. And she's trying to manipulate you and pull on your heartstrings to get you to do it, but your gut is telling you that it isn't right. That's why you're asking TAM about it.

What you've been doing this far is reasonable; what she is asking for is NOT. She needs to grow up and put on her big girl panties and get a real job. She needs to start taking care of her and hers, and stop thinking that it's OK to expect other people to support her. 

If I was you, I would think LONG and HARD before moving in with or marrying this woman. I assume that's on your mind, considering the title of the thread. Think about whether or not this is the type of person you want to spend the rest of your life with.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I agree with the others. Her request is unreasonable.

One thing that probably contributes is that since you spend so much time at her place, she sees you as living with her. You don't. 

The two of you are not on the same page.

She's not good relationship material because she is not willing to do her part.


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## thefam (Sep 9, 2014)

Since she wants to make a big deal out of you paying half, stop sleeping over there so often. You are not married and should have no financial obligations to her household. But she's not going to see it that way as long as you are sleeping there every night. We only have your side of the story but perhaps she's trying to avoid feeling used.

If and when you do get married then you should pay half of the household expenses. You shouldn't have to contribute anything to her children's exclusive expenses like clothing, activities, allowance, etc. If her child support is enough to pay half of the household expenses and all of the children's expenses then so be it. But you will need to look ahead as to how she will contribute when child support ends.

From what I have witnessed when you marry someone with kids if you're not going to look at it as a package deal, it's not going to go well. You definitely should try and get on the same page before you marry. She's clearly shown you she wants to be home with her kids. She doesn't even want to talk about anything else. If you're not okay with that then end the relationship. 

_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## j1806b (Jun 21, 2015)

Ummm I made it very clear from the very beginning when we met that my income cannot support a family. And I realize you all are only hearing my side, listen I would like to work it out and I want to be fair, at the same time it needs to be fair with me too. Even if I DID live there full time with all my crap and we were working towards a long term commitment are her kids expenses my responsibility? Like splitting the monthly bills down the middle is that what is expected of me in a normal relationship? It seems to me a lot of the monthly expenses are child related? Mind you I am a self-employed artist I do ok, but I am not making a lot of money and I gladly share what-ever I can. Like I have said before Itypically pay for all four of our going out expenses and that can add up really quick for four people $500 a month on entertainment eating out etc can get burned up really quick. I really really appreciate your relatively neutral responses, I think it's better coming to a place like this rather then going to your friends, not that your friends aren't important! And I get the feeling the bulk if not all of the responses are coming from women so that makes me think that's a typical woman's perspective. At least the typical woman who follows this board ;-) Having never been in this situation I'm just trying to understand my responsibilities. My brother-in-law took on my sisters three kids he made a lot of money and could do it, but while I work and am always striving I have financial limitations. Thanks


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## j1806b (Jun 21, 2015)

thefam said:


> We only have your side of the story but perhaps she's trying to avoid feeling used.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes I respect her feelings and don't want her to feel used, I am being completely honest I am not trying to take advantage of her I participate quite a bit, cooking, working on stuff around the house etc. taking everyone camping, kayaking, whatever.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

You are responsible for whatever you choose to be responsible for. There is no formula.

It seems to me that you don't want to be responsible for two other people's children. That is perfectly reasonable.

You are not going to talk this out, counsel this out, or come to agreement. She want's your money, and you want your money.

I suggest you tell her that you are not going to pay her household expenses and to stop bringing it up. Yes she may break up with you.


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## j1806b (Jun 21, 2015)

OK one more thing before I gotta get work. Here is a recent comment by her "if you would live here and pay half the bills I would have more money and not feel like I can't take everyone out occasionally" My response was "well that's no different then me paying to take everyone out" It seems to me if we were living together we would pool our resources, decide on outings together, save, work, enjoy our lives together? I mean just recently she's talking about us all going on a trip this fall, while we have an upcoming extended time away like practically a month, granted a week of that is dedicated to doing a show with my work. Who's paying the for the fall vacation?


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

j1806b said:


> Who's paying for the fall vacation?


Apparently, YOU are!

Look, I realize you love this woman... but her whiny, demanding, unreasonableness on this issue doesn't bode well for a healthy future together.

Tell her to get her lazy arse out looking for and securing a job. Once she has a REAL job, earning REAL wages (not a part-time yoga instructor teaching a few classes a week) you will revisit the "household contribution" issue. Until then, the subject is tabled.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

j1806b said:


> OK one more thing before I gotta get work. Here is a recent comment by her *"if you would live here and pay half the bills I would have more money and not feel like I can't take everyone out occasionally"* My response was "well that's no different then me paying to take everyone out" It seems to me if we were living together we would pool our resources, decide on outings together, save, work, enjoy our lives together? I mean just recently she's talking about us all going on a trip this fall, while we have an upcoming extended time away like practically a month, granted a week of that is dedicated to doing a show with my work. Who's paying the for the fall vacation?


Huh??? So you are preventing her from not taking her kids out occasionally??? I agree with all the other posters, and honestly dude you need to run for the hills. She clearly has expectations of how YOU are supposed to support HER family. It comes down to, is that what you want? If yes then suck it up and give in to her demands. Hopefully this is not what you want, move all your stuff out, stay over with her maybe once a week, and if she can't even cope with that, move on ...


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Two words, GOLD DIGGER. Run...


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

anonmd said:


> Two words, GOLD DIGGER. Run...


If I may add...ENTITLED gold digger!

I second everyone's thoughts. And just FYI I am a single mom to two teenagers. I work my butt off...full time. After having been out of the work force and a full time mom for 13 years. 

Instead of focusing on building a career that could one day support herself and HER children, she thinks she deserves someone else to do that. I would think long and hard about continuing this relationship, period...let alone moving in with her.


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## Clair DeVore (Apr 23, 2015)

You don't owe her anything. Take, take, take. Does she pay you for handyman services. Obviously she does not want to earn her own money, so she wants you to be her source of income. 

You contribute your share with paying for food for her and her children, and your handy work (which saves her a fortune instead of hiring contractors). 

Next time she complains bring your own toilet paper.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Unfortunately some women are just like this. With me it was that my Gf wanted to live with me and pay nothing to help out. Her words were "you are already paying those bills so why should I help? ". When asked what she was going to do with all they non bill paying money she said shop...and she wasn't kidding.

Entitled, gold digger, princess mentality, whatever you want to call it recognize that THIS will be your life. Plenty of good women out there that believe in equal contributions. I think you would be much happier finding one of those imo.


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## j1806b (Jun 21, 2015)

@Lila Yeah... I've actually been standing up for my boundaries lately and I think it's throwing her off..... I do find all of your comments very helpful, it's giving me away to approach the situation. Of course there are numerous other factors involved here, all I want to do is be fair and reasonable, and to see if there is anyway to talk it out. I'm really happy I found some people to talk to. And I know she might be a nightmare and it may be wise to run, however there is another side to our relationship that is good, really money seems to be the sticking point, and it's not that I wanna hang on to my money I just can't give it all away and have nothing left for myself. I have no mortgage. Electric, taxes etc are minimal I live in the boonies so water and sewer is self contained, trash is public and I might add I typically carry hers and mine to the refuse center ;-) she has similar expenses except she has a mortgage. I think there is a possible long term solution at least I am hopeful. I haven't been good in the past in discussing things, but she has actually helped me to the discussion table, now I just need to learn tact and what is fair etc. Thanks!


On a side note: I really don't have anything at her house that is mine, my clothes are all at my place.


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

From what I understand, you are showering at your home and then going over your GF house for dinner and then sleeping over and getting up for work the next day.. I am assuming you have cloths over there and get dressed the next day in some clean cloths or the same cloths you changed into after you showered.. 

Then rinse and repeat that same thing all over again.. If I understand this correctly..

Well, you are living there then.. 

You pretty much say you're "maintaining" your house, but shower and do laundry over there.. That it is a fixer upper looking to sell.. 

Can you rent out your place for a profit ?

Here is another reality which I didn't see anyone mention ( and I'm a bit surprised )... 

Sad hard truth incoming.. You take her, you take her kids.. Are you the father ? No.. But are you a father figure ? Yes... 

You either have to be all in or all out.. Its a hard pill to swallow.. But personally I just don't see this working any other way.. Its not the norm for today's relationship in this society.. Maybe when divorcing or being unmarried becomes the norm, then it will be figured out and some rules will be created.. Again it's a hard pill to swallow, I understand that..

If you know her finances. Could she live alone by herself and kids just on child support ? 

I understand why she doesn't want to work.. So you know and understand.. When she works the formula for working out how much child support her Ex husband pays changes.. 

Simple example..

My ex only works 10 hours a week and pays me 200 a month.. Her Percentage is 14% out of 100%.. So she only has to pay me 14% of any medical bills or after school stuff.. So on a 10 dollar copay, she pays me $ 1.40.. Not even worth wiping my A$$ with that, so I don't even bother asking for the money from her..

BUT...

The when she said she might be getting more work in the summer time. The court calculated 40 per hour at 37 hours per week.. 
Her support went up to 1350 which was now 39%... 

So it seems your GF understands this and so do you now...

The other problem is this.. Your dating on and off for 3 years... WTF does that mean.. 

Is this a serious monogamous relationship or not ? 
Are you going to get married ?

Have you ever been married before ?
How long has she been married ?
You said the kids are teenagers.. That is rough as teenager stuff is expensive.. 

Do you get along with the kids ? 
Do the kids get along with you ? 
Is her Ex husband in the picture ? 
Does he get steady visitations ? Does he actually do it ? 

Child support is to pay or help pay for the mortgage, cable box, food, clothing, ETC... Its not a specific thing its money to pay for stuff to maintain the children in a life style they were accustomed to prior to divorce.. 

Again this is a bigger picture than what your looking at.. Your zoned in on one spot and really don't see the edges of this complex painting.. 

Trust me I argue with my GF over her kids. Its not bad things but things her kids need to do that she just drags her feet on.. I fight with her because I care for her kids.. Example her daughter needs to put on a eye patch to strengthen her weaker eye.. The GF gets lazy and doesn't make sure she does it.. The doctor said we have a small window here to hopefully make this better or she will be like this for the rest of her life ( or until technology advances ).. So I chastise for not forcing her to do it.. 

Many would say not your kids, mind your business.. But if I am going to be with her for the rest of my life.. Her kids will be with me.. I can't say well I am going on vacation with my kids if you want to come pay 3k or don't come.. So either we put our money together and do it or we do something a bit less expensive as a new family.. 

So my point is this is the sh!t you need to really think about here.. You are thinking with a single person's mind set.. 

Of course make sure she isn't a "gold digger" but if she is semi decent and attractive, let's face it.. She is a woman.. Any woman with decent looks can meet just about anyone they want.. IF it was about money I think she could find someone who makes more money than you if that what she was looking for.. 

Woman hold ALL the cards in this department.. If a woman wants to go cheat, within a day she can find someone to cheat with.. Men on the other hand might take a week and still we would have to settle maybe.. 

Ideally what you might consider is fixing up this place of yours.. Renting it out and using that as income to living with your GF... Then if things go south, then you can move your tenant out and move back into your place.. This would bring you more income in and allow you to secure some money of your own for a "rainy day".. 

It is obvious she does not want to go to counseling because she knows the outcome will NOT be in her favor.. 

I would consider maybe a 1/3 ( 33%) or a bit more if you wanted to be generous, like 3/8 ( 40-45%)... 

Again this is a difficult situation because of the kids.. 

I use mine situation again.. I have 2 boys and she has 2 girls.. Mine are older than hers.. I have money put away for college for my kids.. Her life didn't allow for that.. 

Does that mean I can't help put her kids into college when the time comes ? I know her ex husband can't.. 

I don't have to, but looking ahead I know this will destroy our relationship.. So I know years from now we will have to do what we need to as a couple to put our kids into college.. 

It just seems like this whole, Love you and want to be with you the rest of your life thing goes out the window at a certain point.. 

Again I know you can't express it all.. But make sure she is not looking at you as a bank account and you need to look at this big picture as well.

Keep posting..


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## j1806b (Jun 21, 2015)

@Hardtohandle,
Thanks a lot for your insight very well said. Her ex the kids father is extremely involved dinner every wed night every other weekend visitation and great holiday excursions, he has and is saving for both kids full college tuition, he's in a good income bracket and appears to me to be a good father.

My GF is consistently talking about moving in six years when the kids have moved on, we live in rural VA its a little backward here at times (I actually really like it), I'm from PA she's from CT. I am comfortable with moving in six years practically anywhere ;-) In the mean time I can fix this place up slowly and within my budget. I've had really bad experiences with rentals, so for now I'm not really interested in that. I use about 75% of the house for my business so that helps out. Building a work shop at her house does not make good financial sense if we're moving in 6 years. I can't see investing that kind of money in something we would be leaving behind. You just don't get your money back out of extra buildings like workshops, she's already got a garage that really doesn't convert to shop space bc she really likes to keep her car in there, and I totally respect and get that.

I understand stepping up to the plate and in all honesty I feel like I put in my fair share towards them? But I will reevaluate that.

She is capable of living on her own, but is really really strapped. I have tried and can provide some work to her. But she got angry when I said I was going to have to give her a 1099 so I could deduct the expense. But as you well know she's concerned about the formula with her husband. But the thing is she's not even making enough to support herself even with the few hours I can give her. She recently had a court appearance for child support and she told the judge she has very limited income I forget the figure but under 500 a month. He said well I'm putting you down for minimum wage at 40hrs a week. She didn't think that was fair, but even the court has an expectation of her earning a wage?

And no I don't get paid working at her house, but again she's very good at cleaning likes to clean so she frequently cleans for me, always on the clock of course. But honestly I'm happy to pay her to do it. And we both work nicely side by side when she's here to work ;-)


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

They are NOT living together until they discuss it, agree to move in, and he gets rid of his own place. Regardless of what she thinks/claims.

OP, I agree with what some of the other posters have said... remove any personal belongings from her place, and stop spending every night there, and stop eating dinner there every night. Your upcoming show presents a convenient excuse... tell her that you have a lot of prep work to do, so you're going to need to spend some more time at your place. And maintain that pattern after the show is over.

Oh, and that long family vacation? She's expecting you to pay for that one, buddy. Why wouldn't you, when you pay for her kids every time the four of you go do something together?

Personally, if it was me, and if I was a guy dating a woman with kids, I might occasionally pay for her kids to do stuff with us, like if I wanted to offer to take them all to an amusement park or something. But if her kids are coming along EVERY time the two of you go out? She needs to start ponying up. I would pay for her, because it's sort of like a date, but if she wants the kids to come along, too, then she should be paying for them. It's really unfair to you to have to pay for the kids when you're not even their stepfather. You're already paying far more than your fair share of "dating expenses," since dating her apparently includes paying for her kids to tag along on dates.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

OP, if she insists you pay 1/2 and doesn't give in to this, are you willing to break things off? Just trying to gauge how important this is to you?


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## j1806b (Jun 21, 2015)

@FeministInPink Unfortunately the show has been masterfully dovetailed into her yoga teacher training which ends this week it's 10 hrs away. Her husband and I have watched/taken care of the boys. at the end of this week it has been agreed I take the boys to her parents which is on the way to show. I work there for t.5 weeks which is totally feasible then she and I go do the show LOL 

She has the other day brought up the topic of finances, which I think it's bad timing to discuss. 

And I might add she makes it very clear that she wants me to stay over, when I try the staying at my place thing.

She says she wants us to work it out?


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

j1806b said:


> And I might add she makes it very clear that she wants me to stay over, when I try the staying at my place thing.


As long as you pay 1/2 :wink2:


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

I don't understand why you are okay with her not having a full time job? Are you okay with her not having a full time job? Are you planning on providing for her into retirement and old age? Some men are okay with having a SAHW. It's usually discussed and agreed upon by both parties, though, because one makes such a great living that it's doable....


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

j1806b said:


> She is capable of living on her own, but is really really strapped. I have tried and can provide some work to her. But she got angry when I said I was going to have to give her a 1099 so I could deduct the expense. But as you well know she's concerned about the formula with her husband. But the thing is she's not even making enough to support herself even with the few hours I can give her. She recently had a court appearance for child support and she told the judge she has very limited income I forget the figure but under 500 a month. He said well I'm putting you down for minimum wage at 40hrs a week. She didn't think that was fair, but even the court has an expectation of her earning a wage?


This is where here request is coming from. The judge expects her to earn some money. She believes it is her right to stay home and care for the children while someone else pays for her to do that. She is now looking around to see where this money is coming from and she sees you. She justifies it in her mind that you practically live with her, so you should be paying your way.
The problem here is that she needs to get a job, but she doesn't want to. Had she thought about trying to get a job through the school district so she has the same hours as her children?


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

CynthiaDe said:


> j1806b said:
> 
> 
> > She is capable of living on her own, but is really really strapped. I have tried and can provide some work to her. But she got angry when I said I was going to have to give her a 1099 so I could deduct the expense. But as you well know she's concerned about the formula with her husband. But the thing is she's not even making enough to support herself even with the few hours I can give her. She recently had a court appearance for child support and she told the judge she has very limited income I forget the figure but under 500 a month. He said well I'm putting you down for minimum wage at 40hrs a week. She didn't think that was fair, but even the court has an expectation of her earning a wage?
> ...


The court absolutely expects able bodied adults to work full time. She has teenagers, not toddlers. Why does she not expect to work full time? Had she told you why she thinks she deserves to not work??


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## j1806b (Jun 21, 2015)

CynthiaDe said:


> The problem here is that she needs to get a job, but she doesn't want to. Had she thought about trying to get a job through the school district so she has the same hours as her children?


She went back to school and completed all the course work for her teacher's certificate, then she quit doing her student teaching which is required to be certified. that was all a couple years before I came on the scene. She does some tutoring, gardening, all of which pay less than I do.


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## Happilymarried25 (Mar 19, 2014)

No you should've give her more money. She choose to be a single parent so it's up to her to support herself. Her kids are in school so it's not like they needs her then. She needs to get a job.


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## Midlifeturmoil (Dec 30, 2013)

You want to play marriage with all the benefits and the option to not play once in a while (spend some me time at your own place when you feel the need). She wants to play marriage all the time to include your income. You have to stop playing marriage. You need to remove the "you practically live here anyway" argument. Only go over there on date nights. If it is a "dine-in" night bring the food. You will soon learn if she loves you or your resources.

You appear to be looking for a partner. She appears to be looking for a second adult male to support her and the kids. 

Both of her kids will be in high school in three years. She will be an empty nester in 7 years. What are her goals? Does she demonstrate (not talk about...demonstrate) any ambition to contribute financially to a partnership in the future? If not, are you okay with taking on three more dependents for the near future and one permanently?


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## EnigmaGirl (Feb 7, 2015)

> Even if I DID live there full time with all my crap and we were working towards a long term commitment are her kids expenses my responsibility? Like splitting the monthly bills down the middle is that what is expected of me in a normal relationship? It seems to me a lot of the monthly expenses are child related?


Tread very carefully here.

I highly recommend you read the laws applicable to step-children in your state. If you were to marry this woman and you establish a pattern of "in loco parentis" which means you start paying for these kids and acting as a parental figure....then you divorce, you can definitely be responsible for child support if they're under 18 at the time of the marriage split. If the court deems that removing your financial support is detrimental to the children, they can order support.

But more than that...this is a matter of inappropriateness. You're with a woman who isn't bothering to get off her butt and work full-time even though she's parenting teenagers. Then she has the gall to ask you for money?!? To me, this is a character issue and has all the marks of a relationship that's going to come with extreme financial problems due to the fact that she has entitlement issues. She's one of those women that won't bother to work and thinks a man should be obligated to take care of her.

As a man, I would avoid this type of woman like the plague. There's no way I'd be setting myself up for getting trapped into supporting a lazy, non-working adult. If you decide to stay with her...at least be aware of the risk you're accepting.

By the way, if you make any serious commitment to this woman, make sure you know her credit rating and debt load. The second you marry her...you assume half her debt. She can also get credit cards, LOAs, etc using your marital status and then rack up debt that you'll be responsible for. If she doesn't have the self-respect not to ask you for money...she certainly wouldn't have any moral problem with running up debt in your name. I'd NEVER have a relationship with a woman like this...but if you do...go in with your eyes open.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

j1806b said:


> @FeministInPink Unfortunately the show has been masterfully dovetailed into her yoga teacher training which ends this week it's 10 hrs away. Her husband and I have watched/taken care of the boys. at the end of this week it has been agreed I take the boys to her parents which is on the way to show. I work there for t.5 weeks which is totally feasible then she and I go do the show LOL


Well, that's convenient for her, then, isn't it? Then make sure that when you come back from the show that you're only staying over at her place on date nights; the majority of the time you should be staying at your place.



j1806b said:


> She has the other day brought up the topic of finances, which I think it's bad timing to discuss.


Then tell her that. Tell her you're not going to discuss it until after the show is over, because you need to be focused on the show right now. 

If she pushes you to discuss it, I would say, "Fine, let's discuss it. Your pressuring me to support you and your family makes me feel like I'm an ATM machine instead of your boyfriend, and I've had enough of it. I will NOT be paying half of your living expenses because I'm NOT your husband and I do NOT live with you. If you don't have enough money to support your lifestyle/family, then you need to get a job and support yourself and take control of your financial situation. As your boyfriend, it is NOT my responsibility to support you financially; if we were to move in together or get married, I would STILL have the same expectation that you work and contribute monetarily to our partnership. I will support you emotionally in any way I can, but I'm not a meal ticket. This is not up for negotiation. End of discussion. If you have a problem with that, you are free to leave at any time." 

You'll have to be VERY firm with her. She won't hear it otherwise, and will continue to push you. 

And she needs to get a REAL JOB; stop paying her to be your assistant or whatever. She cleans your place? Hire a cleaning service. She does administrative/office manager-type stuff for you? Hire a part-time assistant or get an intern. 

You need to completely separate finances from your relationship, and you paying her to do stuff with her creates a lot of grey area.



j1806b said:


> And I might add she makes it very clear that she wants me to stay over, when I try the staying at my place thing.


Do or do not, there is not try. Seriously. You have free will. She can't MAKE you do anything. If she makes it clear that she wants you to stay, YOU make it clear you want to go home. And then GO HOME.



j1806b said:


> She says she wants us to work it out?


When she says she wants to work it out, she means that she wants to beat this horse until you come around to her perspective, even if it's only to get her to shut up about it. 

Dude, you need to STAND UP FOR YOURSELF. Stop making excuses. Do what's right for you, and don't let her walk all over you. Stop avoiding confrontation. She's counting on you to not want to rock the boat. She's counting on you to avoid the confrontation. She's counting on you eventually caving to her ridiculous demands. 

Yes, you might lose this relationship. That's a risk you take when you make yourself a priority. But... do you really want someone who's going to take advantage of you, try to run roughshod all over you, and reject you when you stand up for yourself? If she's a decent partner and a decent person, she'll respect the boundaries you set, and she'll respect you for standing up to her. If she leaves because she wants you to cave in and only do what she says... then you will have dodged a bullet, my friend. And know there is a better woman out there for you, who won't shake you down like a piggy bank.


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## j1806b (Jun 21, 2015)

Thanks again everyone! I am pretty sure I understand what everyone is saying. I do have two questions remaining.
@FeministInPink could you clarify, like how does paying her to do work create a gray area? I just would like to understand it better. "You need to completely separate finances from your relationship, and you paying her to do stuff with her creates a lot of grey area."

Pretty sure this is my last question unless responses create more LOL

If we were to move things along would it be appropriate for my portion of the bills go directly to additional payments on the mortgage? I know it's hard to check and I understand I don't get it back, but I think it's better than just paying and having it going to fun stuff or what ever. Does that make sense?


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

If you are not going to pool all your money together (which unless you are married would not make sense anyhow), I would just agree to some percentage/formula that will be used when determining your portion of the bills you will contribute (although still based on your posts I don't see why you need to contribute to any of the household bills outside of food...).

For my wife and I, we never pooled our money together. We took our salaries and figure out what each's pro rata share was of the total. So if my salary was 60% of the total and hers was 40%, she would cover 40% of the bills and I would cover 60%. The rest of the money was left for ourselves to spend as we pleased. This worked great for us, we never had fights or arguments over money.

The key is, no matter what you guys decide, you both have to be 100% in agreement with.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Does she plan on sharing her equity in the home with you?


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

I'm going to throw some ideas down, but first I want to say that I truly don't believe there is an "obviously wrong" or "obviously right" answer here. As with any couple, if you and your GF are going to stay together, you will need to work out how the finances between you will work. It's a matter of the two of you working out a situation that is comfortable for you both (or realizing that there is no such solution, which leads to a different conversation entirely.)

1. It sounds like you spend nearly all your non-working time at your GF's house. I can understand why she feels like you basically live there. Your "home and workshop" are basically your job(s), your source of income; once you're off work, you head to her place, eat, and spend the night. Where do you spend most of your time on the weekends? Her place? Your place? I am assuming, based on your posts, that you spend your free time with her. 

I am not saying she is 100% right, I am just saying that I can understand why she feels like you live at her house and thus should contribute more.

2. The main obvious problem here is that the two of you have different financial outlooks. 

You're independent and it is clear from your questions that you are not interested in taking on financial responsibility for her and her kids. There is nothing wrong with that.

Your GF is clearly not interested in becoming financially independent. She hasn't worked on developing a self-supporting career, even before you arrived on the scene she abandoned her teaching training. As others have noted, she is hoping/expecting that someone else will step in and financially help her out.

I think that strategy is risky, but she is by no means alone. There are many women who have an emotional need for financial support, and there are also many men who are happy to step up and provide it. Yesterday was Father's Day in the US, there was no shortage of gratitude posts not only to biological dads, but also to Step-Dads who truly have "stepped up" and have been great providers and leaders for their families.

So in neither one of you is "right" or "wrong", but you do have a serious/significant incompatibility. 

3. In addition to financial goals, are you two on the same page for your "martial" goals? I ask this because you titled your post "premarital finances", which might imply that you have long-term planning for "marital" finances. If you are thinking of being with your GF long-term, I suggest that you have a very difficult discussion very soon. See if you can get on the same page with financial goals. I don't think that your GF is a gold-digger because you are very short in gold. There are several SAH ladies on TAM who live frugally, where the husband doesn't mind that they are home, and this might be what she has in mind. It is important that you find out and see if you can come to an agreement that you both are happy with. When you're just roommates/partners, you can work out any financial situation you want. Once you're married, what's yours is hers and vice versa, with few exceptions, by law. So be alert.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Livvie said:


> Does she plan on sharing her equity in the home with you?


^^THIS.^^

Ask her. Seriously.

I am not in this relationship, and I can only go on what you are saying here, but you sound needy. I'm sorry, I don't want to be judgmental, but I simply cannot fathom why you are tolerating this selfish b!tch. 

I am all for SAHM's or SAHD's. But this woman bailed out on what could have been a decent job. She sounds lazy to me and has just been waiting for a nice guy/enabler to come her way.

ABLE-BODIED MEN AND WOMEN WORK, EVEN IN THIS CHALLENGING ECONOMY.

Tell her to get a job. I want to know how she responds. If you get strong enough, tell her she gets a job, or you walk. And don't let her get a job at McDonald's for a couple months to prove she can hold a job.


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## the2ofus (Jan 28, 2014)

My thought is good your finding out this now. In my opinion this is a bad sign and I am a stay at home mom, so I don't have a bias against them. She's very entitled.


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## j1806b (Jun 21, 2015)

@roseaglow thanks for your thoughts very well said. I've never been good at working out our talking things out. So I'm trying to grow and develop. If I'm in a dating situation that is more than just dinner out I am definitely interested in something long term. There are positives to our relationship and I'm trying to understand how to work on this one serious issue. Maybe I need to reevaluate, maybe she does? All I know is I wish to sort it out sooner rather than later. And having this conversation has helped me think about it more clearly. Thanks again everyone.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

j1806b said:


> I've never been good at working out our talking things out.


Many people are in the same boat as you. They are posting on here because of this problem. If you have problems meeting problems head-on and learning how to have a constructive discussion on differences, it will be worse if you marry her. Something to consider. 



j1806b said:


> ... I'm trying to understand how to work on this one serious issue. Maybe I need to reevaluate, maybe she does?


If she wants to reevaluate, that's on her to do. It is not your responsibility. All you can do is look at what you think, what you feel, and how you want to proceed.

This doesn't sound good at all right now. You are posting; not her. So I would suggest you step back from the situation and seriously consider what you may be taking on.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

j1806b said:


> could you clarify, like how does paying her to do work create a gray area? I just would like to understand it better. "You need to completely separate finances from your relationship, and you paying her to do stuff with her creates a lot of grey area."


When you pay her to help you, it is making her financially dependent on you. If she is depending on the money she makes working for you, what happens if she is ill? Would you tell her sorry but you will not give her the money she depends on? Would you let her fall back on her bills? Or would you be a softy and give her the money she would have otherwise earned from you?
She has, or will, become financially dependent on you. The amount she earns from you gives her more of an excuse to not go out and get a job and support herself.


j1806b said:


> If we were to move things along would it be appropriate for my portion of the bills go directly to additional payments on the mortgage? I know it's hard to check and I understand I don't get it back, but I think it's better than just paying and having it going to fun stuff or what ever. Does that make sense?


What does it matter if the money goes directly to the mortgage instead of fun stuff? In the end it frees up her other income so that she can spend more on fun stuff and her kids.

You need to be all the way in or all the way out here.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> When you pay her to help you, it is making her financially dependent on you. If she is depending on the money she makes working for you, what happens if she is ill? Would you tell her sorry but you will not give her the money she depends on? Would you let her fall back on her bills? Or would you be a softy and give her the money she would have otherwise earned from you?
> She has, or will, become financially dependent on you. The amount she earns from you gives her more of an excuse to not go out and get a job and support herself.
> 
> What does it matter if the money goes directly to the mortgage instead of fun stuff? In the end it frees up her other income so that she can spend more on fun stuff and her kids.
> ...


EleGirl's response regarding the grey area is exactly what I meant. She's already financially dependent on you, and she's not going to make a real effort to get a real job while she knows that she has a "job" working for you. And where do you draw the line between boyfriend and employer? You can be one or the other, but you can't be both. It will eventually (probably sooner) lead to bigger problems.

In fact, it is already leading to problems. It REALLY rubbed me the wrong way when she didn't want you to issue the 1099. As her employer, you are legally obligated to do so, and risk getting into serious trouble if you don't. And she tried to manipulate you into NOT doing it because she didn't want to pay taxes on legitimate income. That is just ALL KINDS of WRONG.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

FeministInPink said:


> EleGirl's response regarding the grey area is exactly what I meant. She's already financially dependent on you, and she's not going to make a real effort to get a real job while she knows that she has a "job" working for you. And where do you draw the line between boyfriend and employer? You can be one or the other, but you can't be both. It will eventually (probably sooner) lead to bigger problems.
> 
> In fact, it is already leading to problems. It REALLY rubbed me the wrong way when *she didn't want you to issue the 1099.* As her employer, you are legally obligated to do so, and risk getting into serious trouble if you don't. And she tried to manipulate you into NOT doing it because she didn't want to pay taxes on legitimate income. That is just ALL KINDS of WRONG.


Depending on where the OP lives, there are more complications involved.

For example, California and some other states have palimony. Let's say that you do not issue a 1099, but you pay her under the table, and you pay half of her household expenses.

Then you break up after some period of time. She can sue you for palimony because she can say that you promised to support her forever. And she has no visible income. After all you never issued those 1099's. So you could get stuck paying her palimony of up to 30% of your income.

Be careful.

She is looking for some man to support her.


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

Dating someone with kids can be rough.. 

As was mentioned. After so many years people become institutionalized.. I would image for many years of her life she was that stay at home mom.. Now it's hard for her to get out of that mode.. 

The judge calculating her at 40 hours a week is a bit confusing to me in the sense of what hourly rate is the judge assigning here.. Minimum wage for the state ?.. 
Did the judge do this to reduce the Ex husband's child support ? 

Regardless when a judge does things like this, it is only because they didn't like the answers they got the previous times in court.. So basically he got tired of her story.. 

Again as was mentioned with these types of relationships it does come a time where your all in or all out.. You're not just dating her, you are dating her kids as well. They see what is going in, they figure it out.. It can send them mix messages or even lean them a certain way growing up into adulthood.. 

I honestly suggest you need to write down some ideas and some guide in what direction you want to take this conversation with her.. I can see this getting derailed very fast and turning into a big fight.. 

She clearly is not going to want to give up her home in any way to anyone.. It is the only thing she has for her kids and her only safety net... The only way I could ever see her doing anything is if you actually put money into the home.. 

EG.. house is worth 200k.. You put in 100k from your pocket and get 50% of the home on paper, plus 50% of any future increases in the home value. This would then free up the mortgage money, thus making things less tight.. 

I just don't ever think you will be able to get away with less than 50% in her eyes.. She will just think less of you and I know that weighs heavy on your heart.. Its clear you don't want that either.. No man does..

You mentioned the cable bill and all the channels.. Here is where I ask. Do you for example on a saturday night instead of going out lay in bed with her and watch a movie on cable ? Or watch some on demand movie ? 

You know where I am going with this.. If the answer is yes, well then you know it's going to be hard for you to make that argument about less channels on the cable to lower the bill.

Look in my home I have all the channels plus spanish channels for my mom.. I personally hardly ever watch TV... If someone came into my home and put a gun to my head and asked what channel is showtime on.. I would cry because I would know I was going to die... I just don't have a clue.. But my kids hardly watch it as well.. 90% of the time the TV is on for my son to play Xbox.. I am relegated to my room or computer if I want to watch TV or some show.. But most of the time it's the computer.. 

But I still pay that 250 a month.. 

It is what it is.. I like that they *CAN* watch what they want at a moment's notice if some of his friends come over.. 

And I am going say a part of your issue is you never had kids it seems.. Trust me its just different.. If I didn't have my 2 boys, I would be very well off financially.. I would be doing whatever I want, when I want. 

But I can't so I won't.. But I wouldnt' give them up for the world either.. Instead of going to some vacation and doing nothing and just relaxing.. I will go to some amusement park with them because that is what we do as parents.. 

If she wanted you to live there but didn't want you on the house deed then you should pay for half the utilities and half the insurance if it covers content ( stuff inside the house ).. But not the mortgage..

But you can't say I live here but don't use the TV so I will not pay for the TV but I use the internet so I will pay for the that portion of the cable bill.. 

You cannot nickel and dime someone in a serious relationship.. You have to have the mentality that even though you paid for the last 5 dinners, her time will come around.. Of course she needs to understand that as well. 

It can't be your the man so its expected sort of nonsense..

Why was it on and off relationship for 3 years ?


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Depending on where the OP lives, there are more complications involved.
> 
> For example, California and some other states have palimony. Let's say that you do not issue a 1099, but you pay her under the table, and you pay half of her household expenses.
> 
> ...


:wtf:

OMG, I did not know this! The possibility of this would freak me out. BE CAREFUL, OP!!!

(On a side note, I simply do NOT understand women [people] like this... I would rather die than take advantage of another person in this way. It's so... distasteful. And reeks of entitlement.)


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## Constable Odo (Feb 14, 2015)

j1806b said:


> have been dating off and on for three years [...]


:redcard: #1



> She wants me to pay half of her household bills.


:redcard: #2



> She gets child support and does not have a regular job, her kids are 11 and 14 she’s able bodied and collage educated.


:redcard: #3




> I really want to work it out with her but don’t know what to do?


Run away. Fast.

This woman's meal tickets are growing up and soon she will not be receiving child support for them when they turn 18. Thus, she needs a new sucker (that's you) to impregnate her so she can sit around on her lazy ass, not work, and have someone else pay her bills.

Stop thinking with your penis and stare at the evidence right in front of you.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)




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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

Are you saying that she is supporting her children on less than $500 per month total? This covers the mortgage, water, sewer, garbage, electricity, food, insurance, gas, and cable-internet?


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

She gets support. That is her paycheck. She wants a raise! and wants her boyfriend to provide the rest of her "paycheck"


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

There are alot of able bodied, college educated women out there who don't want to go to work but instead waht to find a way to get a man to pay her bills. I would say at this point to dump her. If she wants you to pay half now, if you marry her she will want you to come up with everything even though you told her up front you couldn't.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

=/

Hell good thing I've stayed the hell away from single SAHMs throughout my love life

Sure would suck to be in your shoes OP


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## j1806b (Jun 21, 2015)

CynthiaDe said:


> Are you saying that she is supporting her children on less than $500 per month total? This covers the mortgage, water, sewer, garbage, electricity, food, insurance, gas, and cable-internet?


 she lives off child support $1300, a few odd jobs probably less than $500 a month, Food stamps and free health care. I know what your all saying.....
No water, sewer, where we live all on site, trash is included in taxes but you haul or I haul ;-) cost of living where we live is rather low in terms of taxes etc. For a real job it does frequently take some travel time, it is very rural.


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## j1806b (Jun 21, 2015)

Hardtohandle said:


> Dating someone with kids can be rough..
> 
> As was mentioned. After so many years people become institutionalized.. I would image for many years of her life she was that stay at home mom.. Now it's hard for her to get out of that mode..
> 
> ...


*Pretty much the money and unwillingness to contribute on her side.*
Like I had said previously I made it very very clear about my income and abilities, If I had more I would gladly contribute more. I try to work everyday many times 7 days a week, my job allows for visiting interesting places meeting cool people, trading services to stay cool places, I just don't have a huge expendable income, I'm not hording it for myself, really I'm not. She said the kids would not and never would be my responsibility, she said she had finances to cover that and reassured me over and over that was the case. I can give my time to those kids I can teach them skills their father cannot but as said previously I am short on gold. She's had the opportunity to have wealthy guys, she says she wants a guy like me??? Its very confusing. Thanks
BTW FWIW I get along quite well with the kids father, in fact I think I have mended some fences along the way.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

> She said the kids would not and never would be my responsibility, she said she had finances to cover that and reassured me over and over that was the case. I can give my time to those kids I can teach them skills their father cannot but as said previously I am short on gold.


So she's good at bullsh-t, what's your point?



> She's had the opportunity to have wealthy guys, she says she wants a guy like me??? Its very confusing. Thanks


Trust me wealthy folk are not all stupid, and parasites can't always be choosy


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

j1806b said:


> Food stamps


PLEASE know I'm not looking to start a political debate here. 

But I have to ask you, OP-given the fact that she's able-bodied and intelligent and can work, you're okay with this? 

Do you respect her in light of this fact?


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

j1806b said:


> she lives off child support $1300, a few odd jobs probably less than $500 a month, Food stamps and free health care. I know what your all saying.....
> No water, sewer, where we live all on site, trash is included in taxes but you haul or I haul ;-) cost of living where we live is rather low in terms of taxes etc. For a real job it does frequently take some travel time, it is very rural.


Your lady must know how to "make a dollar hollar", as my sister puts it. My sister lives on about that income in urban PA, but she is single.

Here's what I'd worry about: if the two of you officially move in together, how of much of her income disappears? Does she still get the full child support? I strongly suspect that the food stamps go and likely the free health care as well.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

j1806b said:


> CynthiaDe said:
> 
> 
> > Are you saying that she is supporting her children on less than $500 per month total? This covers the mortgage, water, sewer, garbage, electricity, food, insurance, gas, and cable-internet?
> ...


Food stamps and free health care...because she doesn't FEEL LIKE working...I am exiting this thread because my blood is boiling. I have no respect for able bodied people stealing resources (I say stealing because the not working is a choice). OP I suggest you think about this person's morals and values.


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## j1806b (Jun 21, 2015)

RoseAglow said:


> Your lady must know how to "make a dollar hollar", as my sister puts it. My sister lives on about that income in urban PA, but she is single.
> 
> Here's what I'd worry about: if the two of you officially move in together, how of much of her income disappears? Does she still get the full child support? I strongly suspect that the food stamps go and likely the free health care as well.


Exactly she doesn't want to report income from me what about when I'm paying to live there that's income too.

She's very frugal, yes


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

j1806b said:


> Exactly she doesn't want to report income from me what about when I'm paying to live there that's income too.
> 
> She's very frugal, yes


With all due respect, she's not frugal. If she's crying poor-mouth to you while she sits in her home watching cable, she's not frugal.

I'm frugal. I have no cable and well, lots of other luxuries I used to have. Because I can't afford it. I live within my means.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

j1806b said:


> Exactly she doesn't want to report income from me what about when I'm paying to live there that's income too.


She will probably get less child support if she has to report the income. This is deceitful towards her ex who is supporting not only his children, but her as well. If she treats the former love of her life and father of her children this way, how will she treat you?
Someone asked you earlier why the relationship has been on again - off again. Can you address that question?


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

You need to stop playing house until you decide to be all in with this relationship. And, understand that if you do go all in, that you will be supporting this woman for the rest of your life. She has no intention of working if she can get out of it. So, say you get married and she still won't work plus she is now pregnant. Do you want to and can you afford to pay child support for the next 18-22 years?


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

Blondilocks said:


> You need to stop playing house until you decide to be all in with this relationship. And, understand that if you do go all in, that you will be supporting this woman for the rest of your life. She has no intention of working if she can get out of it. So, say you get married and she still won't work plus she is now pregnant. Do you want to and can you afford to pay child support for the next 18-22 years?


True. ^^^^
Not only that, but she could get pregnant now. Sex causes pregnancy and sometimes there is nothing you can do to block that. I know lots of women who got pregnant while diligently using birth control - everything from the pill to the IUD, which are considered very effective methods.
Some women do not want to earn money. They feel they are doing their part at home. I personally don't have a problem with that, if the man that is supporting them also feels the same way. It is a problem, however, when they are not taking personal responsibility. To me, it looks like your girlfriend has an idea that someone else should support her, whether he wants to or not. That does not sit right with most people. How does it sit with you?


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## j1806b (Jun 21, 2015)

CynthiaDe said:


> She will probably get less child support if she has to report the income. This is deceitful towards her ex who is supporting not only his children, but her as well. If she treats the former love of her life and father of her children this way, how will she treat you?
> Someone asked you earlier why the relationship has been on again - off again. Can you address that question?


YeaI actually answered it before, not real fluent in the finer points of using the BB and answering to talking points properly.

We've had two disruptions and it's always about the work and finances. And that's where it's headed again unless there is some change in attitude, bc I don't think I'm out to lunch on my train of thought ;-) I came here looking for advice, I'm not completely stupid, although I'm sure most of you think I am vbg. I know there are plently of fish in the sea, I know her faults very well and she probably knows mine even better including my weaknesses. Its a hard pill for me to swallow if that's what it comes to, but I get it.


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

j1806b said:


> Exactly she doesn't want to report income from me what about when I'm paying to live there that's income too.
> 
> She's very frugal, yes


I am not going to demonize her. She sounds like every other person I know who has lived poor. I have long-term friends who lived very frugally for decades in up-state NY; in the past, they had to turn down jobs because the cost in gas plus the loss in benefits would have had them losing money. It is very rural where they live and jobs are few and far between- did they make money if they had to drive 30 miles to/from Walmart to work? It took many years for the husband to get into a career, and it didn't happen until his kids started to get older and leave home so they could better manage the financial hit. There are very few opportunities. Even their daughter, who had an LPN, wasn't able to find a job there and had to move. It's not simple.

You should know though, that she is never going to be a financial support for you, unless you are able to exert a real influence on her. People who have lived very poor tend to look only at the next month. She probably isn't looking at what she stands to lose financially in the long run (like if her husband takes her back to court or if she gets busted for not reporting your income). She likely is only looking at how to survive this week, this set of bills, this month, etc. She will most likely need help and support (financial, emotional, logical) to adopt another viewpoint.

At best, the two of you might be able to come up with a plan where she could help you make money. You might be able to work out a way to rent out your house, report your workplace for deductions, work out a business together. My NY friend's sister has no HS degree or any other training but she does have a wicked business sense. She and her husband are making a very nice living now selling things that they make (nice for their location is about $60k- to everyone else there, they are wealthy at that income level.)

I agree with the posters that you should decide for yourself if you are going to go all in or not. If you want a future, have the talk now. It will be difficult but it will get things out in the open. You will end up being responsible for her and her kids- she will still get child support but you will be paying for more than just you. 

It's really up to you, if you are up for that kind of family life and responsibility.


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

j1806b said:


> YeaI actually answered it before, not real fluent in the finer points of using the BB and answering to talking points properly.
> 
> We've had two disruptions and it's always about the work and finances. And that's where it's headed again unless there is some change in attitude, bc I don't think I'm out to lunch on my train of thought ;-) I came here looking for advice, I'm not completely stupid, although I'm sure most of you think I am vbg. I know there are plently of fish in the sea, I know her faults very well and she probably knows mine even better including my weaknesses. Its a hard pill for me to swallow if that's what it comes to, but I get it.


I don't think you're out to lunch. You two have a real incompatibility. It's good that you're discussing these things now, when you have your own homes, you're only BF/GF, no kids together, etc.

If you've already split up twice over this, it doesn't look good for a third go-round.

It is really hard to change one's financial perspective. My sister is only a year younger than I am, we lived together growing up, when to the same schools, etc. She is the working poor, she works but is still getting food stamps and she is on government health care. She has a poverty mind-set. She is so hand-to-mouth each month that all she can focus on is how to get past this month. She has a HS education because she dropped out of college, and despite my parents offering to pay for community college as an adult, she is not interested. There is nothing that anyone can do- her life is as she wants it. She is OK with it. She knows it. She is not interested or motivated to change it. She just deals with it. She considers herself as successful because as far as she is concerned, she is independent. 

I think your GF has shown you a few times now who she is financially. If it doesn't work for you, there is no shame in saying so. It is much better than spending years fighting, wrestling, generating resentment.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

j1806b said:


> YeaI actually answered it before, not real fluent in the finer points of using the BB and answering to talking points properly.
> 
> We've had two disruptions and it's always about the work and finances. And that's where it's headed again unless there is some change in attitude, bc I don't think I'm out to lunch on my train of thought ;-) I came here looking for advice, I'm not completely stupid, although I'm sure most of you think I am vbg. I know there are plently of fish in the sea, I know her faults very well and she probably knows mine even better including my weaknesses. Its a hard pill for me to swallow if that's what it comes to, but I get it.


I wasn't thinking that you are stupid.
You seem to be realizing that despite really caring for her, there is a huge issue that keeps coming up and it's not going away. You came here to find out if it's just you or if there really is something wrong with the way she is looking at finances.
I'm sure after investing three years of your life, it's hard to close the door on this relationship and move on, especially when it's over money. I looks like she wants you, because you have the qualities that she wants in a man, except she also wants you to pay her way, which she has been told is not going to happen, yet she keeps bringing it up. Maybe she thinks you'll give in and live happily ever after.


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## Midlifeturmoil (Dec 30, 2013)

OP, 

What was the cause of her divorce?


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## EnigmaGirl (Feb 7, 2015)

> Some women do not want to earn money. They feel they are doing their part at home. I personally don't have a problem with that, if the man that is supporting them also feels the same way.


Its her responsibility to support her kids from a previous relationship. Only a completely irresponsible leech begs from a man who didn't father her kids and has already made it clear that he doesn't want to financially support them.

Adults have a responsibility to support themselves but more importantly they have a duty to be able to support the children they decided to bring into the world. Divorce is commonplace and mathematically predictable...there's no excuse for any able-bodied adult women to not have planned their education, skills and finances to the point where she can't support her children. 

OP, if you stay with someone of this caliber...don't complain when she continues to try to take financial advantage of you. And I'm calling B.S. on her claim that she and her children are desirable to millionaires. I'm sorry but you're pretty gullible if you fall for this nonsense.

What is it about you that you don't think you deserve to be with a decent, self-respecting woman who isn't lazy and irresponsible?


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

So it's very "rural"? I have been up and down the length and breadth of Virginia. If you're off I-81, there are plenty of towns where people get jobs, including several universities. If you're off the I-95 corridor, there are lots of jobs for folks who want to work at businesses in that interstate area. I-64? You have plenty of military installations in the Tidewater.

So it's "rural" but you have a job. She might have to drive. That's viable. 

Here's where my antennae go up: when a poster has a thread that is many pages long, but somewhat skirts the direct issues. The thread continues, sometimes for a kazillion pages. Then we figure out the OP isn't being completely honest with us.

So, how about you answer direct questions directly? 

What will you do if she refuses to work?

What answers are you looking for here - to validate staying in the relationship or to validate leaving, or are you just taking a straw poll because you won't lay it on the line to her?

She told you that you were being mean when you addressed this issue with her. WHY ARE YOU ALLOWING HER TO MANIPULATE YOU AND WHY ARE YOU MORE INVESTED IN HER OPINION THAN KEEPING YOUR FINANCES SECURE?

Okay. Start giving direct answers. I'm not trying to be mean, but you aren't being direct. Something doesn't add up. 

Granted, there are some rural areas of Virginia, but I assume you aren't living with the Clampett family in Botetourt County (excuse me if I spelled that incorrectly!).

What say you?


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## j1806b (Jun 21, 2015)

@Prodigal I live in King and Queen County look up the population statistics I live dead center of the county. It takes a solid 45 minutes to get to Mechanicsville and I've never tried to validate her lack of work for any reason. 
I made it clear from the beginning I was trying to understand the situation from an unbiased group of people and found this message board and found it useful. 
She says I'm being mean and I stand up and tell her I am not being mean that's how that plays out. I'm not looking for any kind of validation what so ever I was looking for insight into a situation. I've pretty much found it and finished continuing the dialog.
I agree who knows what the op on the other side of the keyboard is dreaming up in their mind, and then imagine how long the thread would be if I wrote up every detail of the situation? And then all you would have is my perspective? 
Let me know when your done looking up the counties statistics.


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## IamSomebody (Nov 21, 2014)

I do hope you are using at least two forms of birth control that* YOU *control. If you are planning on leaving her and she gets wind of it, she may "accidentally" get pregnant to keep your finances tied to her.

IamSomebody


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

OP

I think you are trying to put a square peg in a round hole here.. 

I know this because reading your thread hit home for me.. It caused me to break up with my GF of almost 2 years.. 

My Ex GF made very good money but just was too lazy.. She blame shifted and didn't argue/fight fair.. She made excuses about taking care of her kids, how was going to take care of mine.. 

But you settle into somethings.. I sadly thought I could change her, make her see the light.. I was foolish.. 

After reading everything, it really is just what people are saying.. She just doesn't want to do it.. She wants to be a Stay at home mom.. She wants someone to take care of her.. 

But she has this issue of low self esteem and so do you.. In a odd sense you both think you can't do better.. 

I am sure other men who were smarter than you ( and me ) seen this in her ( and my Ex GF ) so they knew how to play this out, get what I'm saying.. But we like suckers in a sense go all in and try to be nice and try to change them.. We follow along with this harness on our heads and then once the relationship dies down sexually we start to see the real deal.. This is where we come into issues because now we are fighting to take this harness off and fight back so to speak and they don't like it.. 

Personally I knew something was wrong when I was fighting with the GF over taking care of her own daughter and she was making excuses why she was lacking to take care of her.. Her excuse she works 50 hours a week.. Which she doesn't all the time.. But regardless having custody of my 2 boys I know that work hours and money is not an excuse when they need help.. I lost 25k in income to be home with my boys more now.. It was a big pension hit for me.. 

For me posting here was pretty much take a dose of your own advice HTH...


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

j1806b said:


> @Prodigal I live in King and Queen County look up the population statistics I live dead center of the county. It takes a solid 45 minutes to get to Mechanicsville and I've never tried to validate her lack of work for any reason.


Sure you have. As in validating her lack of work. After all, you're wondering if her asking you to pony up half your money for her expenses is valid. Tell her to commute to Richmond. Most folks in your county do that. Funny, that it is King & Queen. I dated a guy majoring in architecture at VA Tech who lived there. 

You know what I love about responses that get either defensive or try to over-explain? It means I hit a nerve. 


I made it clear from the beginning I was trying to understand the situation from an unbiased group of people and found this message board and found it useful. 
She says I'm being mean and I stand up and tell her I am not being mean that's how that plays out. I'm not looking for any kind of validation what so ever I was looking for insight into a situation. I've pretty much found it and finished continuing the dialog.
I agree who knows what the op on the other side of the keyboard is dreaming up in their mind, and then imagine how long the thread would be if I wrote up every detail of the situation? And then all you would have is my perspective? 
Let me know when your done looking up the counties statistics.[/QUOTE]


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Ah, yes. The defensive response tinged with sarcasm and the OP reading my profile.

Best of luck. You asked for opinions. You got them. Don't like the answers? Don't ask the questions.

I'm outta here. Very best of luck, and I mean it. I hope you and your gf have a good life and work it all out. Seriously.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

And I want to apologize for getting into your profile. I did not look at anything, but I believe in honesty. This website was updated about a month ago. 

I felt it was best to block you, and I inadvertently hit the wrong link. Regardless, I can no longer see what you post. Perhaps you should block me as well. You didn't care for what I had to say, and I didn't care for what you had to say.

Nevertheless, this is an open forum and everyone is free to air their opinions. 

Anyway carry on and best of luck and just consider it no harm no foul.


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