# question



## zos149 (Dec 26, 2009)

I am getting divorced. My wife cheated on me multiple times. I have 9 year old twin daughters and they know divorce is coming. Do I tell them the truth....in a respectfull way? (that mommy was having sexual relations with other men?)

Or do I wait until they get older before telling them the truth. 

Or never tell them the truth.
:scratchhead:


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## snowstorm (Nov 3, 2010)

Never tell them. 

They are too young to even begin to wrap their heads around it. It isn't their fault. Don't hurt them anymore. They love you both so dearly. Let them alone. And allow them to just be kids. Please.


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

You can maybe tell them when they are old enough to understand very well the concept of cheating, adultery. They are two young for that right now. However, always speak respectfully about your stbx in front of them. They need to respect their mother no matter how immoral her behaviour was in your marriage.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Why would you do that to the mother of your 9 year old daughters ? Why would you discuss sex with 9 year old little girls. Do you think that your anger with your wife is causing you to want to take revenge by bringing her down in your kids eyes? 

I can understand your rage but they are completely innocent in all of this and everything needs to be done to shield them from as much of the emotional damage as possible. Out of love for your kids, focus on protecting them which is the natural role of a man anyway. Keep thier mothers image high in their eyes because it is best for them. They are the most important people in this. Please don't take your rage and hurt with your wife by doing such a horrible inappropriate thing. You will not be hurting your wife but you will do damage to your kids. A father talking to 9 yo girls about their mothers sexual relationships boarders on abuse and it can be construed as inappropriate sexual talk from a father. 

They will never forget what you did and they will distance themselves when they get older and realize how inappropriate you were. They will know that you did not love them enough to protect them but your need to get back at their mother was more important to you. Please don't do this it is so bad on so many levels. I'm sure you will agree when you sit and think calmly. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Wow I disagree. I would talk to the children about it, but I sure as shooting wouldn't say "...mommy was having sexual relations with other men."  Wow! 

Here's why it is actually important to talk to the children. They may not be very old, and they absolutely are not developmentally old enough to have a full understanding of maturity and healthy adult relationships, but you know what happens if you cover it up or say "Mommy and daddy just can't get along"? 

A) They think it is their fault. Kids pretty much universally think "If I was a good girl, mommy would have stayed" You do NOT want them going there so they need to have an age appropriate explanation of what happened to understand "why"?

B) They will think that "not getting along" is a reasonable reason to destroy a family and send their lives into chaos and hurt. It's not! They need to have some understanding of morality and a solid basis to figure this out in their child-like way. 

Thus, I would definitely talk to the 9 yo old girls about this openly. Ask them if they have any questions, and if they are shy about it, just tell them the truth in an age-appropriate way: 

"You know mommy and daddy are divorcing right? I wanted to talk to you about why. It's kind of private between mommy and daddy cuz it's grown-up things, but you know how mommies and daddies are supposed to love each other? When we get married we promise to only love each other, right? I personally believe that's right--mommies and daddies should only love each other and that keeps all of us safe huh? I don't believe mommies should have boyfriends or daddies should have girlfriends at all! Sadly your mom disagrees and we did argue about that because I wanted to be the ONLY one she loved. So see how that's a grownup thing and not anything to do with loving you or taking care of you? We will always do that!"


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

AC what would be the purpose of such a speech except to talk about your moral outrage with 9 yo girls. The loving bond of these kids with their mother must remain strong. She will be be the cutodial parent and they need to repect her even if her husband does not. He should keep it to himself if he loves his kids. They have plenty of time to learn about what mommies and daddies do when they are older what is the rush. Of course they must be told about the divorce and helped not to feel at fault. But to begin a morality lesson about extra marital activities is contrivance. The only reason an adult would say this to a child is to, rather selfishly, pontificate about the amorality of one parent. 

The directive for parent in a divorce is clear: to let their kids know that they are still loved and both parents will still be in their lives; they are not responsible for the break up; and they will always have a home and a parent to take care of them. Any blame, revelation of indiscretion is for the purpose for the adults and not the kids. It seems selfish, irresponsible, immature and cruel thing to point out the fault of one parent. To point out how bad one parent is to say that the child is 1/2 bad since they belong to the deceived as well as the deceiver. Besides they love their mother. 

When this oversharing on the part of one parent occurs, the other will probably point out the faults of the other to the kids in in retaliation. Good parents and sensible compassionate adults don't sink to this level. OP take the high road, don't give into your desire to bring down your ex and point out her moral faults. Only you know what your marriage was like, problems are rarely the fault of one party. Don't get into a slugfest with you children as an intermediary. Put yourself in the position of a 9 year old child, and feel what they would feel if you tell them about their mother who they love.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## snowstorm (Nov 3, 2010)

I second Catherine. She is absolutely right. Well said 

It's totally ridiculous to tell them that there mother cheated. And it isn't necessary to justify the divorce as "mom and dad just can't along." You both need to sit down and discuss what is to be said and deliver the news together. Honestly, at their age the reason isn't that important. They are more concerned about what's to come...the future...the change. I am sure that your wife is an excellent mother. Why let the kids down? Why take more away from them. It does sound like punishment for something they have any control over. Why bring in another awful situation into what is already horrible. 

And yes. Please reinforce that you both love them more than life itself. And that you both will remain in their lives. And more importantly that your divorce has absolutely nothing to do with them.


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

I think it would be great if your STBX and you could sit down together, come up with how you want to tell them, when, where and what to tell them, and do it together. That should be a joint effort I think.

As far as telling them about your wife cheating, I personally wouldn't. That seems like too much information for a kid, and I am seeing with my own eyes what my H's baby momma is doing to her daughter with that. It isn't pretty.


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

Just reassure them that it is between you and the W. The girls will find out eventually-and don't badmouth mom, they may feel that they have to "take sides" in order to keep one-or both-parents from getting angry. I never really knew my real father, and I only heard bad things my mother told me about him. Knowing later how vindictive my mother could really be, I always wondered if things could have been different, and if she was really telling me the truth. It's the one regret that I will have to live with.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Sorry I am with AC on this:

Tell them, how you do this must be thought through. The last thing you want is she starts gas lighting you later on because you failed to tell the kids the truth about mommy cheating. Something like you love their mom, she has a boyfriend, daddy does not agree that moms should have a boyfriend when they are married..etc...


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> AC what would be the purpose of such a speech except to talk about your moral outrage with 9 yo girls. The loving bond of these kids with their mother must remain strong. She will be be the cutodial parent and they need to repect her even if her husband does not. He should keep it to himself if he loves his kids. They have plenty of time to learn about what mommies and daddies do when they are older what is the rush. Of course they must be told about the divorce and helped not to feel at fault. But to begin a morality lesson about extra marital activities is contrivance. The only reason an adult would say this to a child is to, rather selfishly, pontificate about the amorality of one parent.


This forgets (rather conveniently) some other responsibilities of parents. It would be entirely wrong to use the children as weapons in a fight with the cheating spouse. It would also be wrong to use the children as punching bags upon which to vent anger.

However: parents are responsible for the moral upbringing of their children. This includes teaching them not to lie, cheat, steal, and many other things. 

Yet this advice suggests it is ok to teach your kids to lie. It validates cheating in a marriage by refusing to teach your kids it is wrong. It validate the normative idea that it's OK to run away from a marriage as soon as things spoil the fun you seek (look for an affair! It is the answer to unhappiness!) 

In other words, instead of teaching kids how to be honest, you wish to teach them that lying is acceptable. Instead of teaching them that keeping a promise is of utmost importance, you downplay it by not mentioning it. 

Snowstorm: you mention that this person's wife is 'most likely an excellent mother'? What kind of excellence includes the idea of breaking promises? What kind of excellent education is this? 

My take on this: these attitudes are part of the reason why this forum exists in the first place! Instead of people understanding from a VERY young age that keeping your word is of supreme importance, we teach our kids that feeling comfortable is far more important: it would be uncomfortable to learn that their mother is doing something blatantly wrong - hence it is by far ore important to lie, twist words, etc., than it is to truly educate our kids in the basic virtues of honesty, trust and keeping promises - even of those promises are difficult.

In any event, its up to the person involved to make a decision about how much to tell their kids. We all offer suggestions and reasons.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

I don't think you have to have a graphic and humiliating and judgmental discussion with your daughters regarding their mother's behavior.

However, a simple form of the truth, that their mother decided to not act like a faithful wife (worded better than this) is not what I can tolerate and won't. So we are divorcing.

There are several reasons for this.

1. It is the truth. Very powerful. Counters any crap lies she tells them. And she will be telling them crap lies.

2. It allows them to know it is not because of them.

3. Nine-year-olds are old enough to understand and appreciate being in the loop. Dissipates confusion.


The telling of the truth should be in context of fully protecting the care and love of those girls. It should not turn into a rant about their skank of a mother type thing.

Their ability to glean a decent lifestyle compared to an indecent one will be continually developed based on observation of both of their parents. Again, this is where the truth is powerful.


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

I said before, don't badmouth mom, (I was adressing the concern that the girls will blame themselves, and I was going to adress the cheating aspect, but I think that Eli-zor, Tanelorn and michzz pretty much nailed it) again, they will find out, and they will make their own judgments-and I don't think your STBXW will come out on the "winning" end with your girls later. If they do ask why, and they will, just tell them that their mother has "done some things that make it impossible for me to trust her, and because I have to trust someone to stay with them..."

The girls will find out, and when they're a little older, you can have a long talk with them about the circumstances leading up to this, and why you did what you did.

And, a darker thought: if you bad mouth mom, and she gets a scumbag lawyer, he could convince the judge that you're turning the girls against her, and she may get full custody of them because of your "harmful" behavior.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> I said before, don't badmouth mom, again, they will find out, and they will make their own judgments-and I don't think your STBXW will come out on the "winning" end with your girls later.


This is absolutely important: it is _always_ wrong to badmouth anyone (also not something you should be teaching your kids!)


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

> AC what would be the purpose of such a speech except to talk about your moral outrage with 9 yo girls.


Actually I'd be happy to address this--it's a great question! Having an honest talk with the girls has literally NOTHING to do with expressing moral outrage. They are children. In their little child-world, home is life. Think about when you were younger than 10 years old--your life was you, your brothers and sisters, mom and dad, the neighborhood, neighborhood friends, and friends from school. Now all-of-a-sudden what they consider as their world is being broken up. Your mom and dad won't be living together, you might be asked to move or move back and forth, your brothers and sisters may or may not all come with you (in this instance they would probably stay together but who knows!)... and the only thing you hear about WHY is stupid stuff like "Well mom and dad didn't get along." Yet if the child doesn't get along with kids at school or some neighbor kid, do they get to move, leave mom and dad behind, lose brothers and sisters and grammas and grampas and have the whole world fall apart? NO! That kind of explanation--covering up and pretending and saying it's okay for grownups to do what kids are told NOT to do--is confusing. It make their already broken up world even more unstable and even more disconcerting because they can't understand it. 

On the other hand, kids do understand doing things that are right and wrong. They do understand having to get a spanking or having a punishment after doing something wrong. They do understand that we all do stuff that's wrong. So if one parent explains it, in age-appropriate way, they can say, "Well this makes me sad" or "This makes me mad!" but they at least understand, in their childish level of understanding, what happened, why, and that they didn't cause it. This is not "moral outrage" at the parent who was unfaithful. This is saving the children from a lifetime of hurt thinking they tore up their parents! 



> The loving bond of these kids with their mother must remain strong. She will be be the cutodial parent and they need to repect her even if her husband does not. He should keep it to himself if he loves his kids.


Again, actually this is a HUGE assumption that many/most disloyal wives make. US Census Bureau figures show the number of single father homes continuing to rise rapidly. The number of single father homes rose by 25 percent in just three years, accounting for all of the increase in single parent families, while the number of single mother households remained almost constant. In 2009, Working Mother magazine reported that 2.2 million mothers in the U.S. do not have primary custody of their children. And the magazine reports that, over the past decade, the number of fathers awarded custody of their children has doubled. So assuming that "she will be the custodial parent" is frankly just a misconception. If he was stable in the marriage and a dutiful parent, he has absolutely just as much chance of getting sole custody and will most likely get at least 50/50 custody. And you can BET that the unfaithful mom would try to justify her affair by saying less than flattering things about daddy! 

So the loving bond of these kids with their father must ALSO remain strong. HE is the parent who stayed true to the marriage, is offering them the stability of staying in their home, in their beds, with their friends in their school in their neighborhood! HE will have some custody too (if not primary custody), and he is just as capable of being the custodial parent if not moreso because he's not in the fog of an affair! And the girls very desperately need to understand basic life lessons like "when you make this choice, it hurts a lot of people" and "we are family and we don't give up on family." 



> The directive for parent in a divorce is clear: to let their kids know that they are still loved and both parents will still be in their lives; they are not responsible for the break up; and they will always have a home and a parent to take care of them.


The directive for marriage is just as clear: "...to forsake all others and love only each other for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health until death parts us." The reason adults make this promise is precisely to save their children from experiencing what these girls are being forced to go through. Thus, they need some signpost in their life to explain this, and things like honesty and "right and wrong" ARE that signpost. 



> Any blame, revelation of indiscretion is for the purpose for the adults and not the kids. It seems selfish, irresponsible, immature and cruel thing to point out the fault of one parent. To point out how bad one parent is to say that the child is 1/2 bad since they belong to the deceived as well as the deceiver. Besides they love their mother.


There is no reason at all that the loyal spouse couldn't say "You know, I'm a daddy and I'm imperfect too. I worked too long and mommy said she felt lonely, but I made the wrong choice. The way to fix something when you do something wrong is to admit it, say you're sorry, and then stop doing it. If you lie more, it just makes it worse huh?" See this is PRECISELY what parents do need to teach their children! 

In addition, if I were to use your logic: "...they belong to the deceived as well as the deceiver. Besides they love their mother" does that mean that a female in a relationship has carte blanc to behave in any way she wants, but because she donated genetic material children are supposed to be taught to love her? So she can beat them with boards, burn them, starve them, and hit them...but because she donated an egg and they are half her genetic code, they would have to "love her"? I'm sorry I disagree. Parents, CAN NOT just behave in any way. They have a duty and responsibility to their children, and if they do not perform that duty it is reasonable to teach the children to protect themselves from harm and to say "No honey, beating you with a board is wrong." I realize it's not popular to hear that abandoning your children to pursue your lover is wrong, but the fact is that by making that choice, it harms the child. When faced with "harm the child" or "fulfill my personal pleasures" I would hope that a mature adult parent would choose their own child! But when they don't--telling the child that it's okay is like doubling the abuse!

Finally, it seems rather an inconsistent double-standard to me that a mother can abandon her children, hurt them, tear their family apart, and destroy their world but she's considered "a loving mother." Whereas the father would be considering the well-being of his very young daughters, telling them about "right and wrong", giving them a model of stability and commitment, and being honest--but by doing so HE is being unloving. That makes no sense...and I am a grown up! Imagine what that would be like for a child.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

zos149 said:


> I am getting divorced. My wife cheated on me multiple times. I have 9 year old twin daughters and they know divorce is coming. Do I tell them the truth....in a respectfull way? (that mommy was having sexual relations with other men?)
> 
> Or do I wait until they get older before telling them the truth.
> 
> ...


Hi Zos149. Don’t tell your kiddies, way too young.

Explain the word and concept “incompatible” to them in simple, descriptive terms.

You are truly dead set on divorce but you know things can change, stranger things in life have happened.

Later down the line when they are older then tell them if you feel they need to know. My wife had an affair when my eldest was a little bit younger than your two. Neither of my two sons now in their 30s know of the affair and they will never hear it from me. If they ask me I will tell them the truth.

Bob


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## snowstorm (Nov 3, 2010)

Yes, I still stand by what I have said.

I am a former teacher, so yes I do know affaircare how it effects children...to be told their mom is an adulterer. No kid is absorbing a "lesson" during maritial crisis. They are feeling. They are feeling hurt, anger and confusion. Telling them that their mom cheated will only cause angst. Bitterness. Questions will lead to you and your spouse badmouthing one another in defense.

And you _can_ be an excellent mom that feels she is stuck in a not so great marriage. Her parenting skills have nothing to do with her marriage. She did not break promises with them...she broke her marriage vows to her husband. Hopefully, the education they will receive is that mom can finally be happy...and dad can too. And that in the real world promises do get broken...and when they do it's heartwrenching. And that there is a price to pay. 

You teach a kid lesson without destroying their respect for their parent or hurting them. Bottom line. These kids are not solidiers. Don't tell them.

Bob I liked your idea.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

AC your arguments are for debate by adults not children. Does shielding a child from the truth if it would hurt them considered deception? Will leaving out details that may be psychologically damaging to the child teach them to be dishonest? The corollary being that parents should reveal all of their marital struggles with their children under the guise of teaching them to live an honest life. 

So lets say a woman divorces her physically abusive husband never revealing to her children his true nature The children have never been exposed to any abuse and love their father. The woman chooses to hide the fact that she divorced their father for abusive behavior. Protecting his image in the eyes seemed more important than complete honesty. She is wise enough to know that her children see their father in themselves and if the think dad is bad they may think they are bad too. He was a good father but a bad husband. 

She does this all for the love of her children. Her children may grow up to be raging liars and deceivers but it's more likely that the trauma of divorce will have less of an impact on them because both parent are good people in their eyes and they feel good about themselves. They have been spared the truth of their father being a wife beater. This deception is justified because it preserves their healthy image of themselves. 

There are many ways to learn honesty, but the wisdom to know when to be honest and when to hide the truth is more difficult to learn and practice. It takes thought. Give me a wise, kind, compassionate, empathetic, and caring person who feels a sense of responsibility for the well being of his or her fellow man any day over a rigidly truthful person. 

The truth shall set you free but it can also efff you up.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> AC your arguments are for debate by adults not children. Does shielding a child from the truth if it would hurt them considered deception? Will leaving out details that may be psychologically damaging to the child teach them to be dishonest? The corollary being that parents should reveal all of their marital struggles with their children under the guise of teaching them to live an honest life.


False objection (objecting to an argument not put forth). Never once has the notion of a parent revealing all their struggles with their children been offered as an option (although it certainly is, as useless and confusing as that may be!)

Affairs happen is precisely because of your advice. A marriage is based not upon the premise that happiness is the ultimate goal of the commitment, but that COMMITMENT is the basis of the marriage! And the reason people leave marriages so readily is because there is no thought given to keeping the promise, which by virtue of its rational construction, takes precedence over the search for happiness. Instead of teaching the kids that keeping their word is the most important thing they can learn - the thing that keeps society together, what is offered instead is the idea that 'it's OK to lie, cheat and hurt people if it looks like you may have found something that will make you happier.' And (laughingly) we don't want the kids to be hurt! What we really don't want is to have to face the reality that we don't want to teach them the hard things in life. It just isn't fun!

As if teaching them its OK to break promises - and then getting angry at them when they do - isn't much more damaging!

It is absolutely OK to come across to your children as having flaws, making errors, even doing wrong things - as long as you also teach them that these things can be overcome - as long as you apologize and make amends. This teaches them the same humility and honesty.

So which is better for a child to learn: 

that breaking a promise is OK in the search for happiness; 

or showing them that your word means more to you than chasing rainbows, that actual hard work on a marriage results in happiness down the road?​
I posit un-categorically that the benefit to the kids - _and to society in general_ is FAR better by teaching them the importance of keeping your word (and also showing them what happens when it is not kept) than making up excuses.

For snowstorm: you say you've worked with kids, etc: do you not see that the way kids are being taught is WHY there are so many unhappy people? The more we try to do the same thing over and over - the worse the situation becomes! The answer is very simple: change how things are done. Compare divorce rates now to what they were 100 years ago - and compare what 'keeping my word' meant a century ago as to what it does now - and compile your own conclusion. It is this ridiculous need to 'be happy' that is causing the trouble: you can be happy in your marriage, if you work at it. ANYONE can. It's a matter of commitment and hard work - things that people avoid like the plague - that bring happiness, not chasing after the next rush.

And no, a woman who deserts their family is NOT a good mother. They are also a bad wife. But the primary tenet of good motherhood is to raise responsible, honest people, and it includes teaching them values. 

Now it may well be that your idea of value is entirely self-centered ("...what suits me right now is the most important thing in the world...") In that case, it is logically _impossible_ to argue that an affair is wrong - EVER, since the only moral thing is your own happiness, immediately gratified! But to teach a child such self-indulgence is _wrong_; it's been taught to us for many many years, and we are seeing the harvest of such a crop right here on this site, every day.



> So lets say a woman divorces her physically abusive husband never revealing to her children his true nature The children have never been exposed to any abuse and love their father. The woman chooses to hide the fact that she divorced their father for abusive behavior. Protecting his image in the eyes seemed more important than complete honesty. She is wise enough to know that her children see their father in themselves and if the think dad is bad they may think they are bad too. He was a good father but a bad husband.


Remarkably silly argument: children observe their parents. These children learned what kind of man to either be or marry by watching the how mom and dad interact. A man who abuses his wife teaches his kids to do the same - even if he doesn't abuse them. The are exposed to abuse simply because they are the PRIME observers of the relationship. An abusive man is a failure as a father, because he doe NOT teach is son how to be a good husband, and he teaches his daughter the kind of man she should marry. 

Oh sure, you could come up with some really obscure example of a man who only abused his wife when they were away alone on vacation, and treated her respectfully ALL the rest of the time but frankly, that is not reality, (why would she divorce him for that - wouldn't she just rather not go on vacations alone with him?) To use absurd, impossible objections in order to build a general argument is an informal logical fallacy and close to irrelevant. Hey - you could be hit by a meteor! Perhpas you should move underground!

Moreover, your objection is irrelevant in this case anyway - I see no traits of abuse in the post written by the man who started the thread. If his wife was leaving because of abuse, she'd be protecting her children. She is leaving him because she is breaking a promise. If one of the kids did this, you'd have no problem with him informing them this is wrong - but let mom do it, and supposedly it is LOVE to give them a false impression that she is good, that there is nothing wrong, and that divorces happen for no reason. As if that isn't unsettling to a kid!

I can understand some people wanting to hide affairs: they have their own to hide and don't want the advice that telling the truth is beneficial. That does not negate the validity of teaching kids right and wrong, especially at a young age, before they become ingrained in bad habits that are much harder to break. 

I've never seen a child 'psychologically' harmed by learning that one of their parents is not doing the right thing. On the other hand, this forum is chock full of really confused behavior on the part of people who learn from their parents that doing the wrong thing IS ok from time to time.

Telling the truth may confuse you - may raise questions that can be answered - but LYING messes you up.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

> I would talk to the children about it, but I sure as shooting wouldn't say "...mommy was having sexual relations with other men." Wow!





> "You know mommy and daddy are divorcing right? I wanted to talk to you about why. It's kind of private between mommy and daddy cuz it's grown-up things, but you know how mommies and daddies are supposed to love each other? When we get married we promise to only love each other, right? I personally believe that's right--mommies and daddies should only love each other and that keeps all of us safe huh? I don't believe mommies should have boyfriends or daddies should have girlfriends at all! Sadly your mom disagrees and we did argue about that because I wanted to be the ONLY one she loved. So see how that's a grownup thing and not anything to do with loving you or taking care of you? We will always do that!"





> "You know, I'm a daddy and I'm imperfect too. I worked too long and mommy said she felt lonely, but I made the wrong choice. The way to fix something when you do something wrong is to admit it, say you're sorry, and then stop doing it. If you lie more, it just makes it worse huh?"


Here are the direct quotes taken from my posts that I suggested saying to the 9 year old girls. I advocate asking them "...if they have any questions, and if they are shy about it, just tell them the truth in an age-appropriate way" (another direct quote). So in summary, I am encouraging the adult parent of these young girls to be honest, be age-appropriate, be reassuring, admit his own mistakes, teach the girls "right from wrong" and modeling the very behavior we hope our kids learn (in other words, don't model a double standard). 

From these verbatim quotes, words like "revenge" "rage" "emotional damage" "horribly inappropriate" are used to invoke an emotional response. In another post "moral outrage" "morality lesson" "contrivance" "blame" " selfish, irresponsible, immature and cruel" " point out how bad one parent is" "retaliation" "slugfest." In yet a different post "totally ridiculous" "punishment" "another awful situation." A followup post uses the terms "bitterness" "badmouthing" "heartwrenching" "destroying their respect". And the concluding post says "psychologically damaging" "abusive" "raging liars and deceivers" "trauma" "wife beater." I realize we disagree but I don't see anything in my suggestions that even hints at these implications or at these emotionally-charged words. 

I do see that one poster thinks: 


> A father talking to 9 yo girls about their mothers sexual relationships boarders on abuse and it can be construed as inappropriate sexual talk from a father.


 and yet the MOTHER is the one actually ACTING inappropriately sexually!! If the father merely speaks of it, he is sexually abusive, but if the mother actually DOES IT, she is to be protected and loved so the children can have a healthy self-image?  :scratchhead: 

I'm sorry, I'm not persuaded. I stand by my suggestions. I believe honesty and modeling moral behavior is a better choice than trying to sway people to cover up adultery with emotionally-charged words. But that's just my opinion and I realize that you disagree with being honest, being age-appropriate, being reassuring, admitting our own mistakes as adults, teaching children "right from wrong" and modeling the very behavior we hope our kids learn...by holding ourselves to the same standard we hold them to. Shall we agree to ignore each other?


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Why did he not ask friends and relatives such an important question instead of strangers? Could it be that he knew what they would think of him?


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Affaircare said:


> I'm sorry, I'm not persuaded. I stand by my suggestions. I believe honesty and modeling moral behavior is a better choice than trying to sway people to cover up adultery with emotionally-charged words. But that's just my opinion and I realize that you disagree with being honest, being age-appropriate, being reassuring, admitting our own mistakes as adults, teaching children "right from wrong" and modeling the very behavior we hope our kids learn...by holding ourselves to the same standard we hold them to. Shall we agree to ignore each other?


Actually I was not trying to persuade you, my motive was to present my side of the issue for the consideration of the OP and anyone else who is reading. I am not arguing with you so much as presenting a point of view in response to your post. 

I don't know why you think that I would want to ignore you. I am not angry with you or anyone else, if I seem too emphatic then I am sorry. I was responding to what you wrote and I thought it was a good discussion. You may ignore me if you wish, but I don't understand why you would. :scratchhead:


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Catherine602 said:


> Why did he not ask friends and relatives such an important question instead of strangers? Could it be that he knew what they would think of him?


This a sheer speculation with no basis.

Unless you have specific information that is not from the OPs postings here on the forum, you write such things for what purpose?

It is my observation that any and all of us can post here and speak to others directly when trying to make a decision.


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## zos149 (Dec 26, 2009)

Catherine602 said:


> Why did he not ask friends and relatives such an important question instead of strangers? Could it be that he knew what they would think of him?


Catherine.....what the hell is that supposed to mean?

You judging me? I came here to ask the question because I know there are a lot of caring, insightful individuals here who can give me some solid advise. I have tried to leave my friends our of this as to not embarrass her....and I don't have any family who can help. I posted my story here a while back...go read it....and then come back and tell me what you meant by your post.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Sounds to me that some people are driven to “out the adulterer” by some form of dogma. Is that because adultery is “A Sin Against God”? One of the ten commandments? And that as far as they are concerned the consequential damage of that “outing” to any individual person, including very young children, are more or less immaterial to that tenet.

I’ve just asked myself a question. Is this “outing of the adulterer” a modern day, internet based equivalent of a “stoning”? And didn’t Jesus say let those without sin be the first to throw a stone? So isn’t all this a matter of the interpretation of the Bible. It can be read and used in so many different ways.

That’s why I say look to the success of the process. Where are the success stories that indicate this process works at holding a marriage together? Surely they are driving the majority of couples apart and destroying the family in the process! In fact so far apart never to reconcile in the future.

That there is no room for “personal judgement” for any individual to do what they feel best for themselves and for the people who are the most important to them in their lives.

I think this is a “faith based” way of going about things and very fundamental. Maybe it is religious fundamentalism in and of itself and for it’s own motivations.

If it is I sincerely believe that the people who promote a fundamentalist way of handling the strife that occurs in families should stand up and declare that fact.

Then we all know where we stand. 

Bob


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

If it is religious fundamentalism as the driver to all this then this is my first exposure to it.

Maybe others don’t see it as religious fundamentalism, maybe it is a way of life for them, the people that come here for help. That it is at the very core of their value and belief system and so they see it, feel it and rationalise it in very different ways to me.

I think I’ve been very naïve about all this. I began to recognise it a little while back but now I see how far it goes.

I’m not one to try and change any fundamentalists. I don’t knock my head on that wall.

But I do think that those who have a “fundamentalist, faith based” process should declare it as such.

I’ve just had a look at AffairCare Home and on the front page …

“If you are here because you just found out your spouse is having an affair, there is hope. Jeremiah 17:7 tells us: "Blessed is the man who trusts in the LORD, whose confidence is in Him." If you are here to make your marriage stronger after an affair or to build an affair-free marriage, we welcome you!”.

I have been really naïve but at the same time I have learnt a lot and I thank you all for that. Including TP and Affaircare. You have opened my eyes I never had this level of understanding before.

For those that take the faith based approached to solving your family problems I do extend my best wishes to you and I really hope it all works out ok for you and those you love.

I have ceased doing my “mini battle” with what I see as religious fundamentalism.

Bob


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## zos149 (Dec 26, 2009)

AFEH said:


> Sounds to me that some people are driven to “out the adulterer” by some form of dogma. Is that because adultery is “A Sin Against God”? One of the ten commandments? And that as far as they are concerned the consequential damage of that “outing” to any individual person, including very young children, are more or less immaterial to that tenet.
> 
> That there is no room for “personal judgement” for any individual to do what they feel best for themselves and for the people who are the most important to them in their lives.
> 
> ...


I agree. That is why I'm looking for advise...the right way to do it. My wife has already taken it upon herself to tell my daughters (incl my 4 year old) without me being present. At this point I wouldn't put it past her to try and turn my daughters against me.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

zos149 said:


> I agree. That is why I'm looking for advise...the right way to do it. My wife has already taken it upon herself to tell my daughters (incl my 4 year old) without me being present. At this point I wouldn't put it past her to try and turn my daughters against me.


What do you agree with?

You’ve confused me. Your wife is going to tell your children about her affairs?

Bob


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## zos149 (Dec 26, 2009)

AFEH said:


> What do you agree with?
> 
> You’ve confused me. Your wife is going to tell your children about her affairs?
> 
> Bob


I don't know what my wife has told them. And I agree with your assessment of 'driving out the adulterer'...faith based way of doing it....you seemed to disagree with that approach...or at least I think you do. I think that approach would be harmful as my children are young. And I'm not looking to pass judgement on my wife...but at the same time she is vanilla coating everything. She has told a couple of her siblings that she had an affair which is only the tip of the iceberg (don't know if you read my original post).


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## zos149 (Dec 26, 2009)

Affaircare said:


> Here are the direct quotes taken from my posts that I suggested saying to the 9 year old girls. I advocate asking them "...if they have any questions, and if they are shy about it, just tell them the truth in an age-appropriate way" (another direct quote). So in summary, I am encouraging the adult parent of these young girls to be honest, be age-appropriate, be reassuring, admit his own mistakes, teach the girls "right from wrong" and modeling the very behavior we hope our kids learn (in other words, don't model a double standard).
> 
> From these verbatim quotes, words like "revenge" "rage" "emotional damage" "horribly inappropriate" are used to invoke an emotional response. In another post "moral outrage" "morality lesson" "contrivance" "blame" " selfish, irresponsible, immature and cruel" " point out how bad one parent is" "retaliation" "slugfest." In yet a different post "totally ridiculous" "punishment" "another awful situation." A followup post uses the terms "bitterness" "badmouthing" "heartwrenching" "destroying their respect". And the concluding post says "psychologically damaging" "abusive" "raging liars and deceivers" "trauma" "wife beater." I realize we disagree but I don't see anything in my suggestions that even hints at these implications or at these emotionally-charged words.
> 
> ...


regarding this portion of the AC's post.....I am with you 100%

I do see that one poster thinks: 
Quote:
A father talking to 9 yo girls about their mothers sexual relationships boarders on abuse and it can be construed as inappropriate sexual talk from a father.
and yet the MOTHER is the one actually ACTING inappropriately sexually!! If the father merely speaks of it, he is sexually abusive, but if the mother actually DOES IT, she is to be protected and loved so the children can have a healthy self-image? 

AC - you are a wise person. Thank you for your insight.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

zos149 said:


> I don't know what my wife has told them. And I agree with your assessment of 'driving out the adulterer'...faith based way of doing it....you seemed to disagree with that approach...or at least I think you do. I think that approach would be harmful as my children are young. And I'm not looking to pass judgement on my wife...but at the same time she is vanilla coating everything. She has told a couple of her siblings that she had an affair which is only the tip of the iceberg (don't know if you read my original post).


As individuals we cannot control other people, what they say and what they do. True control comes from Judges, magistrates, the police and similar but even then our thoughts cannot be controlled. We own those things.

Maybe you will get to the point where I’m at. I felt a terrific need, I was compelled to defend myself against what my wife was telling my sons. They are of a different age to your children, they are in their 30s. I was advised not to defend myself with anyone let alone my sons. It was hard to take that advise, especially with my two sons. I struggled with it for months on end. I haven’t defended myself and I know now that was the right decision to make based on the results I have got.

I can see you are struggling with how to handle the situation. If you are going to run around defending yourself that’s kind of like a never ending story and a very unpleasant one. Why? Because it’s based on accusation and counter accusation. It’s almost like a campaign of hate and you must ask yourself the question “Is that me?”. Is that really where I want to go.

There is going to be “fall out” from all of this and it will go on for quite a long time. I would see it as my duty as a father to protect my children who are such a young age from that fall out.

For goodness sake take the high road and be there for your children in the most loving and protective way you can.

Bob


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

zos149 said:


> I don't know what my wife has told them. And I agree with your assessment of 'driving out the adulterer'...faith based way of doing it....you seemed to disagree with that approach...or at least I think you do. I think that approach would be harmful as my children are young. And I'm not looking to pass judgement on my wife...but at the same time she is vanilla coating everything. She has told a couple of her siblings that she had an affair which is only the tip of the iceberg (don't know if you read my original post).


Don’t fool yourself. You have already come to your conclusions about your wife and you have made your judgements. Your judgments are the reason you are divorcing her.

Bob


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## zos149 (Dec 26, 2009)

AFEH said:


> Don’t fool yourself. You have already come to your conclusions about your wife and you have made your judgements. Your judgments are the reason you are divorcing her.
> 
> Bob


Do you know the difference between 'regret' and 'remorse'

you feel regret

you do remorse

my wife hasn't done remorse.

and for the record...i don't want to get a divorce. i'm to the point where i don't have a choice. marriage is a 50/50 proposition.....and i have been carrying about 90 percent of it.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

zos149 said:


> Do you know the difference between 'regret' and 'remorse'
> 
> you feel regret
> 
> ...


Zos, your original post ….

_“I am getting divorced. My wife cheated on me multiple times. I have 9 year old twin daughters and they know divorce is coming. Do I tell them the truth....in a respectful way? (that mommy was having sexual relations with other men?)”_

If you’d written “My wife is divorcing me ….” It would have been clearer, at least to me.

I’m still not clear if you are divorcing your wife or if she is divorcing you.

You may never see remorse from your wife. If you are divorcing your wife and that’s what you are basing your judgements on then I believe that’s the right way to do it.

Bob


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

zos149:
Back to your original question there is no need to debate this. A tried and proven process to follow is:

"Everyone should know what happened -- *children*, relatives, friends, and *especially the children*"

Even if you are divorcing tell your children the truth. Don't forewarn your wife, have the script written down, at the last moment say to your wife you are sitting down together and tell your kids.

Be open and honest, your wife may be unhappy, you need to close this down quickly the children are not stupid. You tell the children because it is better for them to hear it from you than from someone else and you have control over how it is relayed to them, you are there to interact with them afterwards. The children also need reassurance that it is a "parent problem" and the parents are dealing with it. They also need to know they are not the cause as they tend to personalize.


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## zos149 (Dec 26, 2009)

Eli-Zor said:


> zos149:
> Back to your original question there is no need to debate this. A tried and proven process to follow is:
> 
> "Everyone should know what happened -- *children*, relatives, friends, and *especially the children*"
> ...




Well said....advise I'm going to follow. I will be respectful about it but I will tell the truth.....to everyone.


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