# A sobering look at when accusations go too far



## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

I happened to catch a part of this show that I watched with my wife over lunch (she records it). Now I know that these types of talk shows will contrive stories, so I have no idea if Dr. Phil's show is real or if this show was based on other real life stories like this. 

Dr. Phil.com - Shows - Spies, Suspicions and Sexual Accusations

It did strike me as a little chilling to see this story. We've seen the talks about VARS, keyloggers, spying, etc., and we've see BS's find evidence of affairs. But at some point there comes situations where people can't find anything, but they keep seeing these red flags. It makes you wonder how many people end up going on witch hunts and making a steaming mess out of their own lives with their paranoia and lack of trust. 

This is one of the reasons why I try to be more even keeled and not get too caught up in any threads. We never know the full story and we have no idea if the poster telling us these stories are coloring their facts with their own misguided view of reality or if they have legitimate concerns that need deeper investigation. 

My takeaway from this is to be cautious about what you read in these threads. We have no idea if the person on the other end is a real true blue hurting BS or if he/she is little better than an Inquisitioner.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Yes, you need to be careful. Yes, you need to be sure. 

You know what else is strange? In the last week you wrote two goodbye threads, both deleted, one of which said you'd never post on TAM and the other saying you'd never post in CWI sub-forum. Yet, here you are again.

Thanks for the link to an extreme case and thanks for going against your word. Good luck to you, I hope you get your persecution complex looked at, so you'll stop feeling rejected. 

Good luck.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

In my own situation, when I have finally thought something was amiss, I was right. So now I do trust my gut and find ways to quietly fact check, so to speak as bet that I can.

I can think of a couple of earlier relationships with men in which I was constantly accused of cheating. 

ie.
allow the phone call to go to voicemail -- oh, you must be out ****ing someone.

You said you would be home by 10pm and it's now 10:15pm, -- oh, you must have been out ****ing someone.

I heard you left the event with some guy (when really someone offered to walk me to my car) -- you must of _(sic)_ gone home with him and ****ed his brains out.......

As far as I am concerned people who jump to those conclusions -- and so crudely so -- simply do not exist in my universe.

For those posters who believe that something is going on but can't find even a smoking a gun -- let alone a dead body-- I just simply can't help them.


----------



## InlandTXMM (Feb 15, 2013)

Plan's the guy who's always worried about his post count, right?

I also recall you "exited, stage left" twice this past week.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> In my own situation, when I have finally thought something was amiss, I was right. So now I do trust my gut and find ways to quietly fact check, so to speak as bet that I can.
> 
> I can think of a couple of earlier relationships with men in which I was constantly accused of cheating.
> 
> ...


I agree that if something is amiss you should do your due diligence. I think it can be a fine line to walk though. Also, I think it helps to talk it over with someone else to figure out if your assumptions are valid or if you may be getting into the realm of paranoia. TAM is a good resource to help people process some things. But it can be concerning when you see people piling on and getting the tar, feathers, pitchforks and fire out before more facts come to light.


----------



## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

Of course there are extreme cases. BUT. Our brain is wired to pick up things from our partners. Change of behaviors, etc. There are enough studies that have been done on infidelity. One study showed that 85% of women who had a feeling that their SO was cheating on them were correct. 

From Dr. Oz. 4 Ways to Spot a Cheater:

Gary Neuman said that only 7% of men will tell the truth if they are cheating… so how can you find out? Janine Driver, author of You Say More Than You Think: Use the New Body Language to Get What You Want!, the 7-day Plan, gave the following four tell tale signs of a cheater:

1. Baselining: Get a Baseline

Everyone has a certain way of acting normally, if anything changes, be aware! For example, does your husband usually make eye contact, but now he has stopped making eye contact with you?

2. Verbal Indicators

Look at the underlying words your husband is choosing to use when you confront him about cheating. Does he say something like “I know you don’t believe I’m telling the truth” OR “I can’t believe you think I’m lying”? The first one more likely means he is telling the truth, since the statement has the words “I’m telling the truth” in it. The second one more likely mean he is lying, since the statement has the words “I’m lying” in it. Also, beware of statements like “I know you think this is strange, but…” or “This is going to sound weird, but…”… The word “BUT” should raise flags in your mind. Another problem is if he laughs when you bring up the topic, this is a concern since this is such a serious topic. When you ask your husband if he is cheating, his answer should be a solid “No.” If he says something like “I would never cheat on my wife” then the word “never” is being used to try and convince you, but why would he be trying to convince you if he wasn’t guilty?

3. Non-Verbal Indicators & Body Language

Janine’s “Belly Button Rule” is that you face your belly button towards people you love and trust. If you confront your husband, and he gives you the cold shoulder and turns so that his belly button is facing away from you, or if is shrugs his shoulder… this is Naval Intelligence that he is uncertain and not telling the full truth. If his foot is wrapped around the base of the chair, he is constraining himself (this is what poker players often do if they have a bad hand, since they can’t show their real feelings on their face). A person leans forward if they like you and what you are discussing, but if he leans away this means he wants to get away. If he puts his arms in his lap and tries to make himself smaller, this is him trying to make the target smaller and “disappear.”

4. Follow Your Instincts

If your intuition tells you he is cheating, you are most likely correct. If his verbal indicators and non-verbal indicators are conflicting, unfortunately, the non-verbal indicators are most probably correct.

Dr. Oz had some advice out there for men who are currently cheating. Lying to your wife or trying to convince her that she is crazy is as (if not more) torturous than just having the integrity and honesty to admit your infidelity. So please, do not torment your wife further and just admit to her what you have done.


I do not see TAM folk jumping on the cheating wagon if the red flags are not there. Often times I see posts that say, "Hey, I don't see any red flags".

But there are very common behaviors, traits, signs, etc that all point to cheating. And in more cases then not, that is exactly what it is.


----------



## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

I saw this entire show yesterday (I think there may be a part 2 coming?). This situation is so extreme and crazy, had it been posted here by either party my feeling is the majority of the posters here would have advised divorce. This has been going on for years. None of his "suspicions" are founded and she passed a polygraph. Yeah there are crazy paranoid people out there. My feeling is if he is that convinced she's cheating/lying he's crazy to stay. And since he does he's abusive and she's playing right along staying for it. She fully cooperates with every demand for proof. 

I am the BS I investigated fully. My marriage of 24 years was happy and I never felt suspicious or insecure...until things really felt wrong. I investigated and followed the steps here. It may have saved my marriage and stopped an EA in its tracks. My gut wasn't wrong. And I wasn't abusive or crazed. I also was willing to face the truth of my digging for dirt. Knowing either way I'd never see anything (my life, marriage, and my future) the same ever again. I/we still have so much work to do. I am glad I know the truth and didn't sit around for him to maybe tell me.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Thorburn, that's a great review of spotting the signs of a cheater. I think most reasonable people won't go to the lengths that the guy went to in the link I attached. Now in that story, it came out that prior to those two getting married, the woman cheated on the husband when she was 18 and they were living together - but before marriage. IMHO, the guy never fully processed the infidelity and maybe rugswept the affair with her? That was never spelled out in the show. But it seems like for him his trust was never reestablished and he went on to marry her. 

The guy comes across as a psycho and asshat. But I'll say this: If I reconciled with someone I later married, and I buried those feelings of pain and mistrust (rugswept), who knows what that would do to someone over time. I think a normal person would simply throw in the towel and say "enough". But he seems to be in no man's land where he loves her too much to leave her, but he'll never trust her again.

Yes, part 2 is today.


----------



## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

IMO if you look at him and her (just physical appearance). She looks tormented and sad as heck and older than her husband. 

Her husband accepts no proof...actual proof as enough. If he loved her at all he wouldn't do this. Love is not destroying the object of your "love". He stayed and now their son is an abuser in the making.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

kristin2349 said:


> IMO if you look at him and her (just physical appearance). She looks tormented and sad as heck and older than her husband.
> 
> Her husband accepts no proof...actual proof as enough. If he loved her at all he wouldn't do this. Love is not destroying the object of your "love". He stayed and now their son is an abuser in the making.


I agree with you that he is not demonstrating love to his wife in the least. But I would bet than in his mind he loves her dearly. In a sense, I bet he has that knack to compartmentalize his feelings in a way very similar to some of the cheaters out there.


----------



## Rottdad42 (Nov 26, 2012)

I would like to add the gut instincts, are what lawdogs use to stay out of severe danger. For me I can't tell you how many times I listened to my sixth sense. You can't put it to words, but you know something is very wrong. When people say one thing, but the physical actions are telling you an entirely different story. This is how I really read people. Not to mention I have heard the same little stories (lies), to get out of a ticket. But if you ask the questions and they go to great extremes to prove their innocence, then you need to listen. Paranoia, without solid proof of an affair, will kill the trust and the relationship quick. I guess, trust but verify still stands as a baseline approach to the "gut check." All IMHO.


----------



## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

For two plus years my wife snooped on my smartphone. Every time I was either sleeping or in the shower she would go through it. One day I decided I had enough being treated like a child I broke the phone and now carry a regular flip phone with no data. 
Did it help? Not sure but it's been 4 months and at least I don't have to deal with it anymore.


----------



## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

So Richie33 are you here just by "chance"? Why do you feel your wife was so obsessed? Do you think you dealt with the issue?

I'm asking because for 23 years I never felt any need to snoop or double check a thing...Then his behavior oh so subtly shifted. My gut was telling me something was off. I snooped and it took a minute to start putting a picture together. My gut was right on the money. So dead on it was scary. Any time I have ignored a "gut feeling" I've ended up regretting it. I try to obey that instinct but not to the point of obsession. If it keeps screaming, something's wrong or this person is lying...it's a message to keep them far away and out of my life.


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

There have been several cases like this on the Jeremy Kyle Show in his UK version and his -now finished- US version.

Every time Jeremy has fixed his gaze on the accuser and said, pointedly: "And how much cannabis *do* you smoke?"

So far there has always been a "deer in headlights" moment when they admit that they do use cannabis and, it transpires, quite a lot.

Cannabis paranoia is real and a dangerous condition, especially in people who smoke a lot of it.


----------



## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> There have been several cases like this on the Jeremy Kyle Show in his UK version and his -now finished- US version.
> 
> Every time Jeremy has fixed his gaze on the accuser and said, pointedly: "And how much cannabis *do* you smoke?"
> 
> ...



Possibly, it sounds like good old propaganda though. Most of the hard core potheads I've known don't have the focus or ambition to spy on anyone or be so paranoid about anything but who devoured their Doritos (them and they were so stoned they forgot)

This guy doesn't get a mere pothead pass. He was extra strength crazy.


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

kristin2349 said:


> Possibly, it sounds like good old propaganda though. Most of the hard core potheads I've known don't have the focus or ambition to spy on anyone or be so paranoid about anything but who devoured their Doritos (them and they were so stoned they forgot)
> 
> This guy doesn't get a mere pothead pass. He was extra strength crazy.


The first time I personally experienced cannabis paranoia was the last time I smoked it. Ever.

It was unpleasant and it was dangerous, as it affected a whole group of us who were smoking it and it nearly caused a nasty incident.


----------



## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I happened to catch a part of this show that I watched with my wife over lunch (she records it). Now I know that these types of talk shows will contrive stories, so I have no idea if Dr. Phil's show is real or if this show was based on other real life stories like this.
> 
> Dr. Phil.com - Shows - Spies, Suspicions and Sexual Accusations
> 
> ...


I watched the show. Both Parts.

I watched both parties closely, and I believe there was "something" - not sure what - that triggers this guys mental state. I also noted the wife's "body language" and response. Either she has some serious self-esteem issues, or there is "something" to which she feels guilty. Otherwise, why take the abuse from her spouse and child? 

The husband is a bully, of that I have no doubt. He is "over-the-top" with his aggression toward his wife. She fears him. She also seems to fear her son in concert with her spouse. Why? What was the trigger? I don't think the show covered the event that triggered all this drama.

As for your observation about accusations of infidelity, the best advise given on this forum and (1) keep your silence and (2) investigate. Do not accuse without solid evidence, don't "assume" anything and trust your gut. Even if the truth is not about infidelity, there may be some sense of danger to the marital relationship and getting to the bottom of it requires intuition, knowledge of your partners normal "body language" and personal habits, and the ability to hone in on the source of the change in behavior.

You see, while I observed this husband being cruel to his wife by bullying and badgering her and making accusations, and actually lying to her, the son and himself to get the response he wanted, I also observed her as well. She has some serious self-esteem issues to allow this to continue. Assuming she has been faithful, why would she allow her spouse to make these false accusations and damage her reputation with her son?


----------



## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

I think you've summed it up quite well survivorwife. That was my take away having watched both shows. Although it seemed the triggering event was the wife telling a "white lie" that sent the husband into full on madness....blaming the wife for his choice to lie to her and gambling away 80K "because of the stress " There was so much going on I was really fascinated.

The wife obviously has self esteem issues if she will put up with that. She passed a polygraph and he's still unwavering in his "version" of the truth. 

They need serious help, as I doubt the craziness would stop even after divorce.


----------



## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Lol and some peeps get all over me for telling posters to get their evidence first.

Eh well.

Yes I find it odd.


----------



## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

Weightlifter, I have only posted stray comments here and the so far. You in particular and your advice literally helped me so very much. It was like I had a savvy, neutral friend giving me help putting one foot in front of the other, when I wanted to pull the covers over my head and cry. I had clear steps of what I wanted to know and how to get that information in a way that was clear enough for me to determine the level of betrayal. I had the proof not someone's version of the truth. 

So not to high jack a thread I just wanted to thank you for what you offer this forum.


----------



## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

kristin2349 said:


> So Richie33 are you here just by "chance"? Why do you feel your wife was so obsessed? Do you think you dealt with the issue?
> 
> I'm asking because for 23 years I never felt any need to snoop or double check a thing...Then his behavior oh so subtly shifted. My gut was telling me something was off. I snooped and it took a minute to start putting a picture together. My gut was right on the money. So dead on it was scary. Any time I have ignored a "gut feeling" I've ended up regretting it. I try to obey that instinct but not to the point of obsession. If it keeps screaming, something's wrong or this person is lying...it's a message to keep them far away and out of my life.


I don't understand what you mean by "chance". I dealt with the issue by putting a band aid on it. Getting rid of the phone took the obsession away. Yes, she was obsessed. In 14 years I have never snooped on her. Throughout our marriage she has either been at work or at school. Same with me, I go to work and come right home. There has never been a time that I wasn't like that. It became a situation that I hated. She has all my passwords and opens all the mail. If I had something to hide like another women she would have found it.


----------



## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

richie33 said:


> I don't understand what you mean by "chance". I dealt with the issue by putting a band aid on it. Getting rid of the phone took the obsession away. Yes, she was obsessed. In 14 years I have never snooped on her. Throughout our marriage she has either been at work or at school. Same with me, I go to work and come right home. There has never been a time that I wasn't like that. It became a situation that I hated. She has all my passwords and opens all the mail. If I had something to hide like another women she would have found it.



I didn't mean it as confrontation. Just asking because it seems if one partner is a relentless snoop for no reason. Cutting off access to info just fuels them and is indeed a band-aid when major surgery is called for. I figured you were here for a reason. We all are sadly.


----------



## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

I tried to cut off access and saw the results....I put a lock on my phone and changed passwords....all hell broke lose. She has access to everything now, basically she always did just for a short time while I changed passwords. I HATED the feeling of being snooped on. I would walk in the door from working a midnight shift and as soon as I was out of site she would go through my Internet history and question what I looked at. I had enough of it. I didn't cut off her access since our iPad is always available to go through. But I took the one thing she really was obsessing over and smashed it. I didn't take anything you said as a confrontation...I really just didn't understand what you meant by chance.


----------



## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

Richie33,

Your response to suspicion and snooping that is unwarranted and unrelenting is understandable. But you are on this site. So I assumed (I don't know your situation) that you are here for the same reason as most of us...

I believe, especially as it relates to to original topic, some people are just jealous and paranoid. It stems from many things. It will destroy a relationship. So I wondered what response shutting down any "access" to a never satisfied snooper you had. How do you move forward with a person like that?

For me if I can't return to a feeling of trust, I'm out. I refuse to be a permanent "parole officer".


----------



## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

The response has been good. Honestly I should have done it sooner. We have and had other issues of course. We drifted apart for awhile. But we are putting things back together one day at a time. We move forward cause we love each other dearly and it's worth it.


----------



## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

My stbxw accused me of cheating for 15 years - throughout the entire relationship. She was obsessed. The insecurity took my balls from me - I ended up living like a hermit to allay her suspicions. I never cheated.

Turns out it was she who was the cheater.

It's obvious now - but people who are constantly making cheating accusations (particularly when their SO is NOT cheating) are often projecting, and are cheating themselves.

It's quite the form of manipulation.


----------



## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Oh and there’s some of us that confronted too early with our suspicions. 2003 I found some evidence and redflags. Confronted, and really, really bashed left and right over it for quite some time. Trust was severely damaged, but I just couldn’t find anything conclusive. Only my gut and some redflag behaviors. I continued to try and monitor as well as remind her all the time that I was concerned she might not see the intentions of men for the moves they really are. Fast forward 7 years later to the “full confession” in 2010... Turns out in 2003 I was right. She was just really good at making sure I wouldn’t find out.


----------



## livinfree (Sep 7, 2012)

Healer said:


> My stbxw accused me of cheating for 15 years - throughout the entire relationship. She was obsessed. The insecurity took my balls from me - I ended up living like a hermit to allay her suspicions. I never cheated.
> 
> Turns out it was she who was the cheater.
> 
> ...


I went through the exact same thing for 15 years as well. Hermitting was the same, ex called my coworkers w-hores and b-itches, rarely went anywhere publicly, etc.


----------



## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Healer said:


> My stbxw accused me of cheating for 15 years - throughout the entire relationship. She was obsessed. The insecurity took my balls from me - I ended up living like a hermit to allay her suspicions. I never cheated.
> 
> Turns out it was she who was the cheater.
> 
> ...


:iagree:

Yes, that's actually one of the red flags of an affair: The cheater thinks the BS is cheating because they are doing it.

From the old cheater website, there was a thread that asked a question of the other cheaters: Would you be devastated if your spouse/partner were cheating on you?

And the majority answered yes, they would be devastated, which is ironic because they are the ones cheating. A few others, mostly WWs, commented that they monitor everything about their BHs. :scratchhead:


----------



## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

livinfree said:


> I went through the exact same thing for 15 years as well. Hermitting was the same, ex called my coworkers w-hores and b-itches, rarely went anywhere publicly, etc.


:iagree:

I know, turns out your WW was the one who was cheating.


----------



## PappyJack (Nov 1, 2013)

lordmayhem said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Yes, that's actually one of the red flags of an affair: The cheater thinks the BS is cheating because they are doing it.
> 
> ...



I think you are reading a tiny bit too much into it. 
Not that your wrong, it's just that cheating is REAL to a cheater.
Not theoretic.
So they know it can happen.
The oblivious partner doesn't believe it can happen, thus doesn't think about it much, and if they did, human nature would make them talk themselves into believing it wasn't going on.

Nobody fears muggers till they are mugged.
Muggers walk in fear of bigger muggers.


----------



## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

richie33 said:


> Throughout our marriage she has either been at work or at school. Same with me, I go to work and come right home. There has never been a time that I wasn't like that.


Sadly, this statement shows why so many men and women are devastated when their spouse cheats. The whole:

"BUT he/she just goes to work and comes home. He/She doesn't have time to cheat"

Yet, time and time again on this forum and other infidelity support forums, we see that yes, they can find time to cheat. Especially if it's a workplace affair. Believe me, they CAN find time to cheat. Where there is a will, there's a way. You have her phone and all that? Doesn't matter, there's always a burner phone. You have her passwords? Doesn't matter, they can get a secret email account/facebook account. Do you have access to her paystub? Any unaccounted for sick days/vacation days/hours? 

Just saying.


----------



## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

livinfree said:


> I went through the exact same thing for 15 years as well. Hermitting was the same, ex called my coworkers w-hores and b-itches, rarely went anywhere publicly, etc.


Did she cheat?


----------



## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

lordmayhem said:


> Sadly, this statement shows why so many men and women are devastated when their spouse cheats. The whole:
> 
> "BUT he/she just goes to work and comes home. He/She doesn't have time to cheat"
> 
> ...


And a cheater is going to cheat no matter what you do. So you snoop all day everyday in case they do?


----------



## CouldItBeSo (Mar 11, 2013)

I think the husband in the Dr. Phil is a psychopath and he needs mental treatment... I'm suprised no one (authorities) is doing anything even after he video taped hitting her! :scratchhead:


----------



## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

richie33 said:


> And a cheater is going to cheat no matter what you do. So you snoop all day everyday in case they do?


Only if you start seeing the red flags of an affair. Then that gives you PC to investigate. But you should also not assume that it can never happen just because you think they don't have time.


----------

