# does this seem rigid?



## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

Well today has been a long day but since I'm already exposing all my issues, I might as well explore another one... My husband said I don't let go during sex and it feels restraining. He might get me in the mood by kissing my neck from behind our another move but then I ask that we brush our teeth and put a sheet on the bed for the mess... then I'm not much into foreplay so I want him to get started instead of all the extra touching and I usually don't like oral. He said that this doesn't seem typical for a usual married couple. Is it different from how you have sex?


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

thetiredmommy said:


> Well today has been a long day but since I'm already exposing all my issues, I might as well explore another one... My husband said I don't let go during sex and it feels restraining. He might get me in the mood by kissing my neck from behind our another move but then I ask that we brush our teeth and put a sheet on the bed for the mess... then I'm not much into foreplay so I want him to get started instead of all the extra touching and I usually don't like oral. He said that this doesn't seem typical for a usual married couple. Is it different from how you have sex?


Yes, that's much different. Foreplay is a big part of our sex, and so is oral (more so for her). We do usually interrupt things to put down a waterproof blanket, though...

C


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## justaguy123 (Aug 20, 2014)

I think it really depends. Some days I like cuddling / foreplay, etc., other days I wanna get it done.

What's important is the two of you communicate and agree on what's best for both of you, respecting each other's needs.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Tooth brush and sheet are totally normal / harmless.

But I'm guessing he takes your lack of desire for foreplay to be a: 
Hurry up and get it over with - message


Tired,
Since you are so honest, riddle me this: Are you rushing him because you are already thinking of what you want/plan to do after sex? Watch tv or go to sleep? 

Because - that is really painful for a spouse. To feel like you can't wait to be done with sex, so you can get back to something you like doing. 

Is your H not very skilled at touching you? How hard have you tried to teach him? 

If you get to intercourse fairly quickly, does that mean you normally don't come? 






thetiredmommy said:


> Well today has been a long day but since I'm already exposing all my issues, I might as well explore another one... My husband said I don't let go during sex and it feels restraining. He might get me in the mood by kissing my neck from behind our another move but then I ask that we brush our teeth and put a sheet on the bed for the mess... then I'm not much into foreplay so I want him to get started instead of all the extra touching and I usually don't like oral. He said that this doesn't seem typical for a usual married couple. Is it different from how you have sex?


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

thetiredmommy said:


> Well today has been a long day but since I'm already exposing all my issues, I might as well explore another one... My husband said I don't let go during sex and it feels restraining. He might get me in the mood by kissing my neck from behind our another move but then I ask that we brush our teeth and put a sheet on the bed for the mess... then I'm not much into foreplay so I want him to get started instead of all the extra touching and I usually don't like oral. He said that this doesn't seem typical for a usual married couple. Is it different from how you have sex?


Sometimes doing this is fine. If you are doing it all the time it can get annoying, like you are getting ready to go to work. Once in a while embrace the mess, sexy is messy by nature.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Rigid isn't the right definition.

Spontaneous? Most certainly not.

Dispassionate and unexcited, unengaged? Yes.

There is one thing worse than being flat out rejected by your wife, and that is pity sex.

Sounds like you tolerate sex, rather than participate in or enjoy the activity.

And without that activity, you don't have a marriage. 

You have living arrangements. 

I'd like you to consider my question, an answer to me isn't necessary, but you do need to be able to answer it for yourself.

Why are you here?


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## askari (Jun 21, 2012)

I think that if you know things are likely to get intimate, cleaning your teeth and cleaning/wiping yourself down there is simply a matter of respect for your partner.

When I was in relationships where the sex was frequent and good I wouild clean my teeth 2-3 times aday and use mouthwash 2-3 times a day too....I'd wipe my 'tackle' with a damp cloth 2-3 times a day too - this is all in addition to showering morning and night.

Kissing a smelly mouth, going down on a.....you get my drift! - is not pleasant!

My wife has never been able to let go either. I forget the number of times I have said; 'relax...if you enjoy what I'm doing let me know, let yourself go....its just you and me'.....sadly she never did.
Subsequently I have found out it is because she simply doesnt like sex.
Now in a sexless marriage.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

thetiredmommy said:


> Well today has been a long day but since I'm already exposing all my issues, I might as well explore another one... My husband said I don't let go during sex and it feels restraining. He might get me in the mood by kissing my neck from behind our another move but then I ask that we brush our teeth and put a sheet on the bed for the mess... then I'm not much into foreplay so I want him to get started instead of all the extra touching and I usually don't like oral. He said that this doesn't seem typical for a usual married couple. Is it different from how you have sex?


Rigid? For a hospital orderly.....no. For an act of love and passion......yes.


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## murphy5 (May 1, 2014)

you dont like oral or generally float his boat. Have you TIED to up your game? try haveing two drinks before sex...see if you can let go then.

Maybe try some new sex toys....learn how to use them in new and kinky ways.

What hubby is probably actually saying is "I am feeling inadequate...i am trying to get you interested in sex, but everything i try does not really turn you on. I am getting depressed about it"

you really owe it to hubby to TRY to get horny for him. it is important to him.


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## Vivid (Aug 28, 2014)

Yes that's very different from how I have sex. It sounds very boring, unengaged and not passionate at all.


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

To me, foreplay is just as much fun as the sex its self. I'm guessing you might think sex is nasty or naughty. Were you raised to believe "good girls don't " if your husband is ok with this arrangement, then fine, but he may be feeling unwanted and undesirable. He may be like me, and afraid to "rock the boat".


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

It sounds like bad sex to me.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

(double checked this isn't the LL) If we stopped the foreplay to brush teeth and put down another sheet. We may as well wash up the dishes take a shower and mow the lawn. It ain't gonna get started back up again.
MN


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

sex is messy, part of the fun


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

thetiredmommy said:


> ... then I'm not much into foreplay so I want him to get started instead of *all the extra touching* and I usually don't like oral...Is it different from how you have sex?


"All the extra touching"...? :scratchhead: The touching IS part of lovemaking.

Yes, this is VERY different from how we have sex.

You are robbing your husband of the very essence of a rich, vibrant, sexual connection. If I were you, I'd go pick up some books or videos on sexual technique and learn how to let go, enjoy yourself, and please your husband.

Or you may find that he isn't your husband too much longer. Sorry to be harsh, but LOUSY SEX often = DIVORCE. The "rejected" partner decides enough is enough (as in my case) and bails on the marriage.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Sounds like "sex by numbers". Not fun at all

Have you always been this way or did it develop over time?


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Wolf1974 said:


> Sounds like "sex by numbers". Not fun at all
> 
> Have you always been this way or did it develop over time?


Couldn't agree more Wolf. Reminds me of the old paint-by-numbers sets where the finished product looked NOTHING like the painting on the box (a real bait-and-switcheroo). I'm sure hubby feels like he got ripped off. He wants an "artist"... not a "fill-in-the-lines" painter.

OP needs to branch out, "paint outside the lines", get creative.


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## Rooster2014 (Aug 23, 2014)

thetiredmommy said:


> Well today has been a long day but since I'm already exposing all my issues, I might as well explore another one... My husband said I don't let go during sex and it feels restraining. He might get me in the mood by kissing my neck from behind our another move but then I ask that we brush our teeth and put a sheet on the bed for the mess... then I'm not much into foreplay so I want him to get started instead of all the extra touching and I usually don't like oral. He said that this doesn't seem typical for a usual married couple. Is it different from how you have sex?


How about laying the sheet out. Getting a shower together, kissing touching. Getting out brushing teeth. Then hit the bed and go at it?

Problem solved


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Why do you think you're so goal-oriented sexually? That's the term I use for my wife - knock off all of this superfluous crap and get to the missionary, jackass. 

Clearly, there a many who think this is a perfectly normal and natural way to approach sex. I'd say with certainty not a majority, and you are without a doubt Debbie Downering the whole thing for your partner, who is harboring some very serious hurt and resentment right now, I can equally assure you. 

For the sake of your marriage, learn to let it go. Next time, leave the sheets alone. If you're sexing it up right, you're going to make a Right Glorious mess of them anyway - do you take a shower before digging in the garden? For god's sake, let your partner touch you as much as he wants - 10, 20, 30 years down the road you'll be wishing you hadn't reflexively trained him to keep his damned dirty monkey paws to himself so much that he hardly bothers to brush your shoulder before turning off the light at night. 

You know this is a problem, and you know deep down that you should fix it.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I would be turning down sex like that. It's just not worth it.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

> Is it different from how you have sex?


Yes


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

And btw... Since you're upset your husband is watching porn, this description of your sex life likely has a lot to do with it. Twice a month of this? After 4 years of none for a year and then once a month?

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 4x4 (Apr 15, 2014)

happy as a clam said:


> Couldn't agree more Wolf. Reminds me of the old paint-by-numbers sets where the finished product looked NOTHING like the painting on the box (a real bait-and-switcheroo). I'm sure hubby feels like he got ripped off. He wants an "artist"... not a "fill-in-the-lines" painter.
> 
> OP needs to branch out, "paint outside the lines", get creative.


:rofl: at the pic Happy. That's my wife.

The OP reminds me a lot of my wife.... I'm on the road to divorcing her.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Perhaps you could explain this mindset to the rest of us? I am truly curious.

What about sex do you find so off-putting? What specifically is it you don't like about being touched, fondled, licked, and rubbed? Why does sex have to be sanitized? Why is so much of the rich canvas of human sexuality off limits? 

Why???????

Do you get no enjoyment from those other things? Is your *ick* factor exceeded? Is this behavior only naughty people engage in? When someone asks me why I don't like Brussel sprouts, I can tell them that they taste like crap and that they make me gag, literally, that's why I don't like them. What is your explanation?


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## Shoto1984 (Apr 11, 2009)

When I was married, I was faced with a spouse who did these things also. When all the spontaneity had been sufficiently killed, it then felt like she was saying "you may do this now...", which ends up feeling like you're masturbating with with another person in the room. 
There's a great seen in the movie American Beauty where there's an opportunity for a spontaneous moment between husband (Spacey) and wife (Bening) that you sense could be a start to repairing a damaged marriage. Rather then turn her brain off and enjoy the moment (and appreciate the possibility the moment holds) the wife can't get beyond the possibility that the couch might getting dirty.....how romantic. "It's just a F**king couch....."


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Cletus said:


> For god's sake, let your partner touch you as much as he wants - 10, 20, 30 years down the road *you'll be wishing you hadn't reflexively trained him to keep his damned dirty monkey paws to himself* so much that he hardly bothers to brush your shoulder before turning off the light at night.
> 
> You know this is a problem, and you know deep down that you should fix it.


Cletus... you win the TAM award-of-the-day for calling a spade a spade! One of the best posts I've seen in a LONG time!

Love the "dirty monkey paws" analogy... :rofl:


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## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

Shoto1984 said:


> When I was married, I was faced with a spouse who did these things also. When all the spontaneity had been sufficiently killed, it then felt like she was saying "you may do this now...", which ends up feeling like you're masturbating with with another person in the room.
> There's a great seen in the movie American Beauty where there's an opportunity for a spontaneous moment between husband (Spacey) and wife (Bening) that you sense could be a start to repairing a damaged marriage. Rather then turn her brain off and enjoy the moment (and appreciate the possibility the moment holds) the wife can't get beyond the possibility that the couch might getting dirty.....how romantic. "It's just a F**king couch....."


This is his feeling, too. He said that sex is a time for us to let go, to "explore each other freely" and lose ourselves in each other. He said that he feels frustrated that I can't let go and be okay with a little mess every once in a while. I don't know...it's just that I don't like messes. I don't like "fluids" so that's why I give him oral with a condom on when I do, even though he's said that we do that during or after a shower...I just thought that this is how sex was done. But I will say that I'm trying. I only felt comfortable with missionary, but we've been trying other positions and they felt good. 

Someone asked me if I've ever orgasmed with him or anybody, and I have orgasmed with H before. I O during a majority of our quickies, too, so we don't really need long marathon sessions.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

thetiredmommy said:


> This is his feeling, too. He said that sex is a time for us to let go, to "explore each other freely" and lose ourselves in each other. He said that he feels frustrated that I can't let go and be okay with a little mess every once in a while. I don't know...it's just that I don't like messes. I don't like "fluids" so that's why I give him oral with a condom on when I do, even though he's said that we do that during or after a shower...I just thought that this is how sex was done. But I will say that I'm trying. I only felt comfortable with missionary, but we've been trying other positions and they felt good.
> 
> Someone asked me if I've ever orgasmed with him or anybody, and I have orgasmed with H before. I O during a majority of our quickies, too, so we don't really need long marathon sessions.


Aside from an O, what do YOU get out of sex? What does it mean to you?


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

thetiredmommy said:


> I don't know...it's just that I don't like messes. *I don't like "fluids" so that's why I give him oral with a condom on when I do*, even though he's said that we do that during or after a shower...*I just thought that this is how sex was done.* But I will say that I'm trying. I only felt comfortable with missionary, but we've been trying other positions and they felt good.


Don't like fluids?! What do you think happens during regular, missionary sex -- there IS an exchange of fluids. For crying out loud, how do you think babies are MADE?!?! Open your mind to possibilities, OP. There are dozens and dozens (hundreds, if you count variations) of other sex positions. Try them all out.

*"I just thought this is how sex was done.*" Ummm... maybe for prudes, but you really should consider visiting a sex therapist so you can understand your husband's primal, carnal NEED for raucous sex. We are ANIMALS, after all. Go to NatGeo channel and watch shows on lions -- see how a male lion b*ngs the females in his pride. This is what your husband desires.

I am not being sarcastic. I wish the very best for both of you.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening thetiredmommy
People shouldn't give you too hard a time - a lot of people have sex lives like yours. But....for most people with happy sex lives it is very different. 

While a "quickie" is a fine, fun thing to do sometimes whey you are in the mood, it is not replacement for long lovemaking sessions. 

My wife and I start hours earlier - a (coded) naughty email at work. The hug when we get home includes a kiss on the neck, or nip on the earlobe. More touches, more passionate kisses in the early evening - a pat on the bottom when we walk by each other doing chores. Then in the evening, undress each other - kissing skin as it is exposed.

Depending on mood we may go directly to sexual activities, or I may give her a long massage - intermixed with kisses all over. Or if I haven't undressed her for a massage, I'll see how aroused I can make her without removing any clothes. It is sort of a game - gently getting the other person so aroused that they can't wait any longer and "insist" on sex NOW. 

Mix in oral (well at least for her  ), toys, different positions, occasionally anal, and try to make sure she has an orgasm that will disturb the neighbors . Afterwards we just cuddle for a while, sometimes fall asleep together - then get much-needed showers....

Now you may like different things and that is fine. Whether its whips and chains, furry suits, or candles and champagne, HAVE FUN! Being able to let go of your inhibitions because you completely trust your partner is a big part of sex.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

richardsharpe, a lot of our responses to thetiredmommy are in large part in response to the ridiculousness that is her thread:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/219594-question-about-personal-rec-time.html

While your advice would be good for many other people, I am not sure it is the best for her relationship...a relationship where her husband is overwhelmingly the giver, and she is the taker. She regularly dismisses his concerns when he vocalizes them, and so suggesting things, additional things that he might do for her...she claims to want an egalitarian relationship, a relationship of equals, and this is yet another area she needs to step it up and start giving...a lot...to even come close to making this a relationship of equals.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

thetiredmommy said:


> This is his feeling, too. He said that sex is a time for us to let go, to "explore each other freely" and lose ourselves in each other. He said that he feels frustrated that I can't let go and be okay with a little mess every once in a while. I don't know...it's just that I don't like messes. I don't like "fluids" so that's why I give him oral with a condom on when I do, even though he's said that we do that during or after a shower...I just thought that this is how sex was done. But I will say that I'm trying. I only felt comfortable with missionary, but we've been trying other positions and they felt good.
> 
> Someone asked me if I've ever orgasmed with him or anybody, and I have orgasmed with H before. *I O during a majority of our quickies, too, so we don't really need long marathon sessions*.


Good sex is not just about getting a quick O.. it's as much or more about all of touching, smelling, felling.. getting high off of just being turned on for a long period of time.

YOu would have much less of a problem around your period if you had more frequent sex with a lot of foreplay that really got all kinds of hormones running in your body/brain.

I found that lots of sex around and during my period took away all the PMS.. there is no better cure for PMS than lots of sex.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Sorry, but you sound like a mother telling her boy-- first eat your vegetables then you can have dessert.

How would you feel if your husband inserted little conditions every time prior to any interaction that was important to you?

You would probably be frustrated and conclude that he really didn't want to have the interaction in the first place.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> Sorry, but you sound like a mother telling her boy-- first eat your vegetables then you can have dessert.
> 
> How would you feel if your husband inserted little conditions every time prior to any interaction that was important to you?
> 
> You would probably be frustrated and conclude that he really didn't want to have the interaction in the first place.


That's how she views and behaves in the rest of the relationship too...without the offer of desert...and her husband is beginning to notice and is not overly happy with it.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

OP, after reading your other thread (courtesy of samyeagar) because you weren't brave enough to post a link to it (it's REALLY hard to give you good advice when half the story is missing)...

I conclude that you aren't looking for a solution. You are just looking for justification to keep on being selfish, to keep on taking, to keep on depriving your husband.

Lest you get into sex therapy soon, I doubt he will be your husband much longer. Come back to TAM and tell us how you feel when he is having a TORRID love affair with a woman who meets EVERY ONE of his sexual goals...

While you continue to withhold and justify...


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Foreplay is essential IMO. My W and I start that foreplay in the morning. Some touching, etc. Sexting and email. It culminates into unbridled love making. 

Very definitely, there is other ways of having sex.

We do not have a sheet down but we do look after our hygiene before the good time begins!


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

I am getting the feeling this can't be real. No way possible a young person in 2014 is this clueless about sex.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

happy as a clam said:


> OP, after reading your other thread (courtesy of samyeagar) because you weren't brave enough to post a link to it (it's REALLY hard to give you good advice when half the story is missing)...
> 
> I conclude that you aren't looking for a solution. You are just looking for justification to keep on being selfish, to keep on taking, to keep on depriving your husband.
> 
> ...


Oh my, I did not read that post. HAC is right...

TCB or someone will for you.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

richie33 said:


> I am getting the feeling this can't be real. No way possible a young person in 2014 is this clueless about sex.


You would be surprised what folks don't know.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> there is no better cure for PMS than lots of sex.


Studies have shown it can also cure the common cold and solve global warming.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

richie33 said:


> I am getting the feeling this can't be real. No way possible a young person in 2014 is this clueless about sex.


OR men in general.


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

Yeswecan said:


> You would be surprised what folks don't know.


I am not buying it.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

richie33 said:


> I am not buying it.


It is not for sale. Watch Honey Boo Boo. That will tell you.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

just read the other thread too. I can only hope this whole thing is flame because your husband is basically your gimp. The convergence of all of these issues is like a case study for why men should not get married.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

richie33 said:


> *I am not buying it.*


Me either.

I have some BEAUTIFUL real estate for sale underneath a bridge I'd like to offer up to OP...


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

thetiredmommy said:


> He might get me in the mood by kissing my neck from behind our another move but then I ask that we brush our teeth and put a sheet on the bed for the mess... then I'm not much into foreplay so I want him to get started instead of all the extra touching and I usually don't like oral. He said that this doesn't seem typical for a usual married couple. Is it different from how you have sex?


Rigid, yes. 

If someone asked me to lay down something so I wouldn't "make a mess" I prob wouldn't keep dating them, let alone marry them. Same goes for someone who think it's cool to never give me oral sex and vice versa. 

In another thread you mentioned how you will only give him a blow job if he's wearing a condom and how you think the request of a BJ is weird.

You've also mentioned elsewhere that you won't let him jog for an hour or meet up with his friends.

To me, this is all weird/rigid/uptight. 

I could not be with someone like you. 



Almostrecovered said:


> sex is messy, part of the fun


:iagree:

Nailed it (pun intended).


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> sex is messy, part of the fun


Yup...and great sex is when you not only have to change the sheets, but clean the drapes too...oh, and have the living room carpet cleaned...


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Hicks said:


> Studies have shown it can also cure the common cold* and solve global warming.*


No, no. Blow jobs do that.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

samyeagar said:


> Yup...and great sex is when you not only have to change the sheets, but clean the drapes too...oh, and have the living room carpet cleaned...


And the hair.

:rofl:


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Don't forget... He's "allowed" to spank the monkey, but no porn. He's supposed to be fantasizing about his princess instead of looking at people who at least pretend to enjoy sex. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> No, no. Blow jobs do that.


We haven't even scratched the surface on the medicinal properties of semen.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

:rofl:


It's the antedote to nearly everything.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Hicks said:


> We haven't even scratched the surface on the medicinal properties of semen.


Semen mixed with Clorox and 409 is hardly medicinal...

:rofl:


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

happy as a clam said:


> Semen mixed with Clorox and 409 is hardly medicinal...
> 
> :rofl:


Yes but it is great for cleaning white wall tires. :smthumbup:


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

happy as a clam said:


> Semen mixed with Clorox and 409 is hardly medicinal...
> 
> :rofl:


Flavored clorox and 409 on the other hand...


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## Tigerman (Apr 5, 2012)

I had written a lengthy reply, but had to chop it down because I was worried about saying some very controversial things and stirring up a bunch of trouble that would have distracted from the main issues here. Here's what remained after my editing. 

The OP's solipsistic worldview is absolutely corrosive to a relationship. She prioritizes her interests/needs/wants/expectations over her husband's, and resents his attempts to get the same sort of consideration in return. Any self-interested action on his part, including quite healthy and normal ones, can easily be interpreted by her in a way that leads to her resenting him. I would also bet that any time he "loses frame" because of how awful he feels in the relationship leads her to further resent him, too. She may not be fully aware of all this, but it oozes out of her posts.

The husband is almost certainly developing resentment for the OP because he sees her as incredibly selfish and not a true partner: prioritizing herself and expecting him to prioritize her, while not making a sincere effort to treat him with anything like the same kind of concern and caring. He is her servant, a beta-orbiter who she doesn't regard as worthy of any real investment. And people who enter an arrangement believing they are on equal footing and end up being treated as servants, do not take kindly to it. He might stuff it down for a while, hoping you'll see the light and change, but that can only go on so long.

To the OP: when your husband masturbates, he is trying very hard to not think about you. You might slip into his mind because he loves you, finds you attractive, and wants to have hot, fun sex with you. But he will do all that he can to push you out of his mind and to think about someone else - either someone he knows or just some woman on a porn site - so that he doesn't have to confront the ugly feeling of not being wanted or truly valued by you. With those other women, there is the possibility of fantasy. With you, there is only the cold, hard truth of how undesired he feels. Whatever he might fantasize about doing with you, the immediate thought that pops into his head is that there is no a chance in the world of it happening. It's more than a little tough to keep it up with a thought like that bouncing around in your head.

Unless he has no self-regard, he very likely thinks about cheating, even if he has no plans to follow through on it. And I'd be very surprised if he isn't looking for the exit and wondering just how rough a patch he'd have to go through until he gets himself back together after leaving you. Chances are pretty good, at some point the calculation will tip in favor of him hitting "Eject" and getting on with the awful business of divorcing you so that he can eventually have a chance at a happy life. If he stays, he'll be miserable and things between you two will spiral down the drain until you reach a level of deep mutual disdain. And, given enough time, no matter how good a man he is, he'll likely cheat if he has an easy opportunity to. 

My advice: either find a way to get as much enjoyment and satisfaction out of meeting his needs (etc) as it seems he gets from meeting yours, or cut the man loose and let him get on with his life. My advice to him would be to divorce you, at the first realistic financial opportunity, and get on with his life.


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## MrsFrench (Sep 9, 2014)

I tend to try and give people the benefit of the doubt, and after reading your last thread, I've gathered a very simple truth: you have a very controlling, polished, uptight personality. I'm going to go as far as to say you're prude. Does that suck for your husband, if he isn't the same way? Yes. But a person doesn't just become this way out of nowhere, I am all but certain he knew who you are as a person going in, and thus should have decided beforehand if he could live with it long term.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

MrsFrench said:


> I tend to try and give people the benefit of the doubt, and after reading your last thread, I've gathered a very simple truth: you have a very controlling, polished, uptight personality. I'm going to go as far as to say you're prude. Does that suck for your husband, if he isn't the same way? Yes. But a person doesn't just become this way out of nowhere, I am all but certain he knew who you are as a person going in, and thus should have decided beforehand if he could live with it long term.


I don't know...she is very accomplished at the sweet passive aggressivness, and if you haven't been exposed to it before, and learned to see it for what it is, it's VERY easy to get sucked in without a clue in the world exactly what we were getting into.

Many of us here are living with, or have lived with people just like this, and many of us had no idea going in that people could actually be like this. Also, those of us who have been here for a while see this kind of behavior a lot and so again, we know what to look for because we see it all the time.


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## IcePrincess28 (Aug 4, 2014)

Hi Tired Mommy,

I must say- due to the response your previous thread about "use of personal rec time" received- its inspiring that you're continuing to ask for help. If i had to guess- you're purging yourself of all your doubts- and giving yourself a wake up call?  Either way- I admire your doing so.

Can you tell me what your parents are like? What was your sex life like, before your daughter was born? The level of "sterile - ness" I see in your sex life- most likely stemmed from your upbringing, or- was made possible during a long stagnant sex life. During that period of little/no sex- you got used to having certain expectations (regarding sex life)- and being tired all the time- further exasperated the issue at hand. 

I can understand the laying down the sheet part. Due to having two toddlers- that like to sneak in bed, one of whom is undergoing potty training at the time, my bed and their beds all have waterproof mattress covers. Get one- and you can, in the very least, not have to break his mood- by laying down a sheet- when you can just change the sheet later. 

Brushing teeth- how about just a quick whoosh with the mouth wash?

At this point, in reading both your threads- imagine a life that involves not being married to him, as well as putting yourself in his mind- of him imagining a life without being married to you. (i'm going to refer to points made in the other thread). 

You not being with him- would mean that, you do not have to worry about having sex with him anymore. But also- your financial support would be adjusted accordingly. You might have to work more than 16 hours a week. You can not call him to come home from work bc your daughter is having tantrums. Unless your husband has his daughter at the time: You can not sleep in on weekends and nap in the afternoons of the weekends, you can not do pilates 1-2x a week, you will have to the the one that picks her up from your mom's, as well as be the one that cooks, bathes, and puts her to bed. 

Him not being with you would mean: he's free (in the future, and long down the road- bc I can tell he seems to really love you) to go have sex with women, or woman- who is happy to have sex without extra sheet and brushing, and might even ask for extra helpings of foreplay. He can have happy hours and go out with his friends- instead of that ONE happy hour you mentioned. He can work out- with or without his daughter (but from the sounds of it, he could very well be enjoying working out with his daughter. But- I know plenty of men- who want to pump some iron, and not have to worry about their 4 year old being around- and possibly getting hurt), and most of all- he can run- every day if he wanted to. He can sleep in on weekends, and he can get a full sleep in at night- all because he does not have to take care of you anymore. 

Do you see how- it sounds more and more like- you see him more like your dad (who you've addressed the similarities to, in the last thread)- and less like your husband? He has to take care of the both of you- like his children- and he's getting nothing back for it from you. His daughter is his daughter. You are not.


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## Shoto1984 (Apr 11, 2009)

MrsFrench said:


> I tend to try and give people the benefit of the doubt, and after reading your last thread, I've gathered a very simple truth: you have a very controlling, polished, uptight personality. I'm going to go as far as to say you're prude. Does that suck for your husband, if he isn't the same way? Yes. But a person doesn't just become this way out of nowhere, I am all but certain he knew who you are as a person going in, and thus should have decided beforehand if he could live with it long term.


True. But they are where they are and so is it better to stay in the marriage, compromise and work on it or not. That's rhetorical as only they can decide that.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Peeps...

Before you get too emotionally invested, it might behoove you to check out OP's other two threads... They are hanging in the balance right now. I fear the chopping block is coming.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

happy as a clam said:


> Peeps...
> 
> Before you get too emotionally invested, it might behoove you to check out OP's other two threads... They are hanging in the balance right now. *I fear the chopping block is coming*.


Whee! Off with their heads!


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## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

IcePrincess28 said:


> Hi Tired Mommy,
> 
> 
> 
> Can you tell me what your parents are like? What was your sex life like, before your daughter was born? The level of "sterile - ness" I see in your sex life- most likely stemmed from your upbringing, or- was made possible during a long stagnant sex life. During that period of little/no sex- you got used to having certain expectations (regarding sex life)- and being tired all the time- further exasperated the issue at hand.


My mom is very loving, but she has had anxiety issues, too. She would take us on different outings and was very involved in our lives. She would part time, but still would make time for us. When we were teenagers she was more lenient and let me go to parties with friends and hang out. She was very encouraging, too. 

My dad worked hard and was very loving, too. He would make pancakes for us in the morning sometimes before he went to work. But he also had an angry streak and would give the silent treatment to us and lock himself in the room if he was upset with my mom or one of us. 

My H loves them both, but he has sometimes said that he worries that my dad appears tired. He gets upset when my mom volunteers my dad to do a project before he comes home because he thinks it's not very considerate to tell him he has to do a project after a long day at work. 

Our sex life I guess has had its ups and downs. I remember when we were dating, he could literally go for hours! But then, we moved in together and were busy with work, so things naturally slowed down. He wants to go for "hours" sometimes, but that's hard when you're working and have a child. 

I was always clean when it came to sex. I would give him oral with a condom back then, too. I guess one reason why he is upset is that I promised him that we could have oral without a condom when we were married, but I later reconsidered it. I was hoping to be more comfortable but I wasn't. I feel bad about this, but I also have to respect my body, right? But our sex life has been improving. I think it can still get better, but I'm tired. But I have heard that women's sex drives naturally get better with age, so maybe this won't be a problem soon?


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## MrsFrench (Sep 9, 2014)

thetiredmommy said:


> My mom is very loving, but she has had anxiety issues, too. She would take us on different outings and was very involved in our lives. She would part time, but still would make time for us. When we were teenagers she was more lenient and let me go to parties with friends and hang out. She was very encouraging, too.
> 
> My dad worked hard and was very loving, too. He would make pancakes for us in the morning sometimes before he went to work. But he also had an angry streak and would give the silent treatment to us and lock himself in the room if he was upset with my mom or one of us.
> 
> ...


Why don't you try oral sex in the shower, then? Or use flavored lubrication gel rather than a flavored condom? It greatly depends on the person, I am sure, but I have never personally experienced or heard anyone complain of their significant other oozing precum like a geyser throughout the entire experience or anything. The little there is could easily be masked by the aforementioned flavored jelly. I don't see the problem. 

Also, what did I miss? Why are we talking about you sucking your husband's penis and your mother's anxiety in the same breath?


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## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

MrsFrench said:


> Why don't you try oral sex in the shower, then? Or use flavored lubrication gel rather than a flavored condom? It greatly depends on the person, I am sure, but I have never personally experienced or heard anyone complain of their significant other oozing precum like a geyser throughout the entire experience or anything. The little there is could easily be masked by the aforementioned flavored jelly. I don't see the problem.
> 
> Also, what did I miss? Why are we talking about you sucking your husband's penis and your mother's anxiety in the same breath?


Well I think even a little bit of precum would make me nauseous. But I never heard of the flavored jelly...I might look into that. Thank you!

LOL I'm sorry that came off as weird, but I mentioned my parents because someone asked about my upbringing.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

happy as a clam said:


> Before you get too emotionally invested, it might behoove you to check out OP's other two threads... They are hanging in the balance right now. *I fear the chopping block is coming.*


*AND.... they're GONE!* Poof... just like that...

Those two threads have indeed been locked.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

Jellybeans said:


> :rofl:
> 
> 
> It's the antedote to nearly everything.


H.W.C (Hot White ***) by Liz Phair

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTUkrXsabp4


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Tired, what is it exactly you're trying to accomplish here? Are you looking for validation or are you looking for advice?

You seem to not be responding to any of the advice you've been given. What's your motivation here?


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## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> Tired, what is it exactly you're trying to accomplish here? Are you looking for validation or are you looking for advice?
> 
> You seem to not be responding to any of the advice you've been given. What's your motivation here?


I came here for a little bit of both feedback and validation, I guess. I went to another forum and they were less than kind. :-/

I really am trying to take this all in, but changes don't happen overnight. I know I'm probably coming across as defensive, but I've been like this for a while, so it's probably going to take some time for this to sink in. I mean that's what counseling has been like for me. I don't always like what my therapist tells me, like when he thinks I'm over-estimating how scary something might be, but I do try. 

This has been a really hard day, and if I look like I'm emotionally unavailable it's because I'm trying to keep it together and not be too defensive.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

giving oral through condom? that must taste awful!!!!!!!


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## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

WandaJ said:


> giving oral through condom? that must taste awful!!!!!!!


It's flavored so it's not that bad actually. That way I don't have to worry about gagging on precum or worry about pee.


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

> But our sex life has been improving. I think it can still get better, but I'm tired. But I have heard that women's sex drives naturally get better with age, so maybe this won't be a problem soon?


Don't rely on age to up your sex drive! It's not really a guarantee at all. 

Instead, you have to consciously break through those barriers yourself. There are all kinds of ways to mentally trick yourself and TAM is happy to share all of the ways we've made our breakthroughs.

If you read the forum long enough though, you'll see that the reactions you are getting are from the spouses that are in your husband's position. Trying to deal with their spouses limitations sexually is a little frustrating--which is why they are more than happy to try and help someone else not be in that position.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

tiredmommy is actually pretty good at chewing through all the advices and adjusting her views, based on the previous thread. Give her time, and she will get it.

Don't count that your sex drive improve all by itself. I think yuo need to educate yourself a little on healthy sex and intimacy, and learning to relax. Major project, I'd say, but this is not just about your, it is about your marriage.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening TheTiredMommy

My wife and I had a very limited sex life for many years due to her lack of interest. This rotted our marriage from the inside, leaving only a show we put on for friends.

For some reason a few years ago she decided to change things. EVERYTHING got better for BOTH of us. You would be amazed the extent to which a good or bad sex life can affect everything else about your relationship.

Just try it. Be passionate. Go give him oral without a condom. Jump his bones by surprise. Have wild passionate long-lasting sex. Wear slinky lingerie. Is it really such a terrible thing to do that it isn't worth trying to see if it will make your life better? If after a month or two you aren't happy, then at least you will have done your best.


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## IcePrincess28 (Aug 4, 2014)

Thank you for the background you gave as to your upbringing. 

Which parent do you tend to favor? Feel protective over- if applicable? My mother is very loving and was very attentive to me as well. And not so much to my dad. I often felt the need to "protect" my dad. 

If you sympathize your father- then know this- your husband are your father are very much in the same shoes. To some extent- these men are okay with the women wearing the pants- as long as there is compromise in areas that are important to them. 

Right now- you're wearing the pants. And there is zero compromise. The problems you have - and the reasons you give to support why you are the way you are- are legitimate to you. And it is up to you to work on them. 

Sometimes- this is just going to mean less sleep and giving a blow job without a condom. But only when you're truly ready to. How long you take is up to you. Just as is- how long he is willing to wait for you to change. 

Keep in mind- just as you're on here- worrying about your shortcomings. He might very well be venting to a friend or coworker as well. Especially since he is at home or at work about 100% of the time. There is a chance he is venting to some coworkers.

And this is often where opportunist bad women will pretend to be the concerned advice giver- with other underlining bad will. 

I completely agree- you will not change over night. How about figure out a couple things that you're willing to compromise on. Not things of feelings- but actual activities. And tell him that you're in the promise of working on being more flexible with them. 

Here's a list out of which you might choose several from. 

Giving him some time away from the house. This could be in the form of running. (Which is the top priority for him). Perhaps time with his friends to watch a game. (Staying at home all the time, outside of work hours- is extremely detrimental and imbalanced). 

Letting him sleep in on Saturday. And you sleep in- extra! On Sunday  getting a waterproof mattress cover, so that the "mood" isn't interrupted. 

Not to be too detailed. But maybe if you're completely grossed out about a no condom bj- and also have an issue with sex on a regular basis- in addition to disliking foreplay: 

How about- working on easier less effort things- such as a handjob? Go research on how to give a good one. So one nights that he wants sex and you're a definite no. You can surprise him with a handjob? 
This can also be used as foreplay. 

But it is clear you need to work on what is stemming the reason for your low libido. How often do you masturbate? You do not need to answer this publicly. My view on women with low libido is- if they're still masturbating (this can be thru external vibrating- or internal penetration)- then the problem is not libido. But rather within the relationship. But that's IMO.


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## Abc123wife (Sep 18, 2013)

Tiredmommy, I don't think you ever gave us your basic background information. 
How old are you? 
How old is your husband? 
Was he your first boyfriend? 
How much experience did you each have before meeting? 
How long did you date before marrying? 
When your sex life was good (was it ever?) with your husband, what was the frequency? 
How long after getting married, did your sex life drop?
Has your husband ever sat you down and said that something has to change?


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## MrsFrench (Sep 9, 2014)

thetiredmommy said:


> MrsFrench said:
> 
> 
> > Why don't you try oral sex in the shower, then? Or use flavored lubrication gel rather than a flavored condom? It greatly depends on the person, I am sure, but I have never personally experienced or heard anyone complain of their significant other oozing precum like a geyser throughout the entire experience or anything. The little there is could easily be masked by the aforementioned flavored jelly. I don't see the problem.
> ...


You can order it online, or just purchase it in person at a sex store. In the stores, they have them in little individual serving type sizes for like, fifty cents. It will completely mask any other tastes, you just have to find a brand and flavor you like, some of them are better than others.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

You say you have a problem with fluids and such. 

Did your breast milk gross you out?

What about changing your daughter's diapers?


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## Shoto1984 (Apr 11, 2009)

So assuming this thread is legit. I'm just want to add that while its your husband that is the motivation for your post (I think), you're also missing out on so much.


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## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

Shoto1984 said:


> So assuming this thread is legit. I'm just want to add that while its your husband that is the motivation for your post (I think), you're also missing out on so much.


I'm not sure what you mean by missing out on so much...


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## MrsFrench (Sep 9, 2014)

soccermom2three said:


> You say you have a problem with fluids and such.
> 
> Did your breast milk gross you out?
> 
> What about changing your daughter's diapers?


I think it is strictly a taste/in her mouth issue, if I am understanding correctly.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

MrsFrench said:


> I think it is strictly a taste/in her mouth issue, if I am understanding correctly.


I'm not sure about that. OP does not like to have oral on herself. She does not like 69 because she said it's too animalistic.

I get the impression that her inhibitions are very basic.. nothing but vanilla rag doll.


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## ifweonly (Feb 27, 2014)

Oral with a condom on???? For crying out loud, this is your HUSBAND!! Give the man a break -- trash the condoms, leave the dirty sheets and make real love to your man. Foreplay like crazy and then fu*ck like crazy. Gee wiz learn to let go and enjoy the sex that is before you NOW! 

I used to put notches on the bedpost (bed broke) but now I just smile at all the dirty sheets. You should take up a similar activity. Let lo-o-o-o-se!


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

_He looked deep into her eyes, from what he could see of them beneath the sheen of her hazmat suit. He began to approach her, and as he got near asked for her consent to touch her seductively in preparation for coitus. She gave her consent in written and verbal form. Once the authorization was granted, he gently caressed her shoulders with his gloved hand. 

She recoiled slightly but tried not to show her displeasure.

“Talk dirty to me.” He said.

“The Ebola outbreak in Africa is horrible.” she said...

“That’s not quite what I had in mind.” He said._


Just kidding... I am so sorry. Could.not.resist.

OP, I don’t mean to poke fun but from what I’ve read of your posts, you seem very rigid and not to enjoy sex much, if at all. Sex is pleasurable, in my opinion the best euphoria around – better than food, drugs, alcohol et al. when it’s done right.

It’s okay to let go and relax and have fun. A little mess is okay, and often is part of the fun.

You asked what’s typical of others. I’d have to say that your routine is not typical for me. Foreplay to me is amazing. I love the kissing, cuddling, oral sex, fondling etc. before, during and after sex. It feels good, it’s arousing, gets the blood flowing, heightens pleasurable touch everywhere and it makes PIV even better. I don't mind quickies but that's because we have a lot of sex that includes the former. As for changing the sheets... if anything needs to be changed we do it after. We own several sheet sets, a washer and a dryer. The world won’t end if the ones that are on the bed get messed up.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

As for oral with a condom on. I understand that you don’t like fluids but I imagine that it would feel like a pretty big rejection to him. That you think he’s so disgusting that you have to put a barrier between you and him. I’m sure you mean well and it’s why you give him any BJ’s at all but I know it wouldn’t cut it for me if I was a man... heck, even as a woman. If my spouse pulled out a dental dam to give me oral, I would feel like he was repulsed by ME. 

A blow job without a condom is not some taboo or kinky sexual act. It’s a pretty standard, vanilla, routine act for most sexually monogamous people. 
If you’re worried about germs, that’s more of a mental issue to get over than anything. Pee – even if your husband didn’t just shower five minutes ago is pretty non-existent. Even if some were there, it’s sterile, it won’t kill you, make you sick and you can’t taste it. Assuming you’re not agoraphobic, the amount of poop/pee germs you come into contact with and likely put in your own mouth just living your life is astronomical. 

The ID cards, debit, credit cards in your wallet, your cell phone, house keys, and purses (these things rarely get cleaned) are way dirtier than your own husband’s freshly showered penis. What’s more is you touch those things without even thinking about it and then ingest the germs whether by eating something, unconsciously touching your face, or rubbing your eye and the thought never crosses your mind that there’s a good chance you’ve just eaten fecal bacteria or some stranger’s sneeze germs by having done so. As gross as that thought is, you don’t die, and still don’t often get sick (yay for immune systems amirite?) So yeah... I think it is mostly in your head, it’s not “normal” for the majority and it’s something you should probably work on. 

If pre-cum grosses you out so much, you can use your hands... not to be crass but it makes good lube... I’m pretty sure that’s what it’s there for anyway (not BJ’s per say but natural lubrication). Then go back to oral with lots of your own spit or a flavoured lube. If swallowing grosses you out, finish him manually or let him come in your mouth but just continue with oral while letting it run out of your mouth. Or have him tell you he’s coming and offer him a clean towel or let him finish somewhere on your body... boobs, bum, thighs, stomach etc. Whatever you do, don’t recoil and act disgusted unless you’re seeking to make your husband feel like a total reject.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Take one of those listerine breath gel thingies and place as far back on your tongue as you can before you swallow your husband down. You won't taste anything and he will get a tingle that will have him giggling like a school girl.

If you can't find those listerine things, try an altoid instead, but they tend to get in the way ...


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Having skimmed through three of TiredMommy's threads please tell me other people are ringing the troll alarm?

It's highly unlikely that this person is "real".


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## Abc123wife (Sep 18, 2013)

Abc123wife said:


> Tiredmommy, I don't think you ever gave us your basic background information.
> How old are you?
> How old is your husband?
> Was he your first boyfriend?
> ...


Tiredmommy, why are you ignoring these basic questions?


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## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

Abc123wife said:


> Tiredmommy, I don't think you ever gave us your basic background information.
> How old are you?
> How old is your husband?
> Was he your first boyfriend?
> ...


Sorry I took so long to answer. I needed some time to digest this...
We're both 32 and he is my first sexual partner. Well I mean I did things with previous boyfriends but he was the first I had sex with. We used to have more sex but then we were in our early 20s. I felt more and more tired but he kept his drive even with our lives getting busier. I honestly don't know how he think sex after his long day.


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## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

Abc123wife said:


> Abc123wife said:
> 
> 
> > Tiredmommy, I don't think you ever gave us your basic background information.
> ...


I missed a few questions. Sorry! Hmm he had a few other girlfriends. We dated for like five years before we married. I had a really bad anxiety and depressive episode before we got married and I guess I wasn't to interested in sex. That is the first time he really had a sit down with me about our frequency. I felt really embarrassed and really cried. He kinda backed off after that and tried to be supportive so I went back to counseling to help me with my anxiety. I hope this helps!


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## Nikita2270 (Mar 22, 2014)

TiredMommy:

I think you're missing an opportunity here.

You should take all your posts, compile them together in a bound copy entitled "How to Ensure Your Husband will Divorce You"...and send it to a publisher.

I suspect you may need the generated funds at some point for legal fees.


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## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

Nikita2270 said:


> TiredMommy:
> 
> I think you're missing an opportunity here.
> 
> ...


But I'm trying to be a better partner. Why do you need to be mean to me?


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## Abc123wife (Sep 18, 2013)

thetiredmommy said:


> I missed a few questions. Sorry! Hmm he had a few other girlfriends. We dated for like five years before we married. I had a really bad anxiety and depressive episode before we got married and I guess I wasn't to interested in sex. That is the first time he really had a sit down with me about our frequency. I felt really embarrassed and really cried. He kinda backed off after that and tried to be supportive so I went back to counseling to help me with my anxiety. I hope this helps!


Frequency? Have you ever had a range of 3 or more times per week at any point in your marriage? If so, for how long was it in this range and how soon did it drop? And how low and for how long did it drop?


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

thetiredmommy said:


> But I'm trying to be a better partner. Why do you need to be mean to me?



She doesn't. Not for a week anyway ...

So which of the items that you have posted about thus far have you discussed with your husband since coming to TAM?

What do you plan on doing differently?

By the way, who described you as rigid?


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## IcePrincess28 (Aug 4, 2014)

Nikita- at this point - it's quite apparent you enjoy kicking those who are down. Tired mommy has been hit -for good reason- with some harsh criticism. She's making an effort at changing. What exactly do you hope to achieve with your mockery? I suspect you're here with popcorn and a gavel. 

Tiredmommy- with your husband being the first sex partner you've ever had- your learning curve in that category- is very limited. It's good that you're here to learn- that your sexual behavior is not very compromising. It (and the other issues you've mentioned) will ultimately cost you your marriage. 

Please visit a sex therapist- to help you work on your obstacles. I know funds are limited. But your husband will happily oblige and this will help not only save your marriage- but will help you realize what you're missing out on. 

Also- work on not overthinking everything. You and I are similar in that aspect. I'm working on that as well!


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## IcePrincess28 (Aug 4, 2014)

FYI- tired mommy- Deejo (forum moderator) is implying that Nikita has been banned for a week for her callous remark. 

Please continue to update us with your thoughts and progress. We are here for you.  hope you are doing well.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

thetiredmommy said:


> But I'm trying to be a better partner. Why do you need to be mean to me?



Ok now we're getting somewhere. When you say you're trying to be a better partner what do you mean. What have you done differently so far?


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## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

WorkingOnMe said:


> thetiredmommy said:
> 
> 
> > But I'm trying to be a better partner. Why do you need to be mean to me?
> ...


Well if I'm not in the mood, I ask for a raincheck and try again tomorrow. I started this when my h called me out on asking for a rain check but not following through. :-/


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

thetiredmommy said:


> Well if I'm not in the mood, I ask for a raincheck and try again tomorrow. I started this when my h called me out on asking for a rain check but not following through. :-/


Just as an FYI, this is one of the primary reason why my ex is my ex. I could have wallpapered our house with unredeemed rain checks. IMHO, this is a HUGE no-no. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Abc123wife (Sep 18, 2013)

PBear said:


> Just as an FYI, this is one of the primary reason why my ex is my ex. I could have wallpapered our house with unredeemed rain checks. IMHO, this is a HUGE no-no.
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Agree with above!!! Rain checks will not do. You have already shown your husband that you don't always follow through on rain checks. There is probably nothing worse for your husband than being put off with a promise that then results in him getting doubly rejected when you don't follow through. 

Would you consider just having no rejections/refusals of sex with H for just one week? It would not kill you! You might find that you may not initially be in the mood but you might soon be in the mood IF you allow a little time and foreplay (no more of the OK but make it quick because I am tired). Maybe during that one week you can skip the TV before bed, go to bed early each night, and find that even with sex you will be getting more sleep. Good sex can lead to a very good night of sleep!

BTW, why do you not want to address the frequency questions I have asked? It is hard to fully comment or offer suggestions without all the information to understand the extent of the issues going on.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Tired,

I hope you realize - that you very much are welcome here. 

Everyone on TAM (okay maybe only 99.9% of the folks here) respects Deejo for his experience and fairness, and he just banned Nikita for being hostile to you. 

A sincere rain check for the next day is perfectly fine. M2 does that with me whenever she wants to. And I am totally cool with it because she does follow through the next day. 

That said, you need to ask yourself an honest question before you request a rain check. 
1. Does having a day to warm yourself up actually help you get in the mood? 
2. Is there anything you can read, view, do that turns you on? 

If not, then the rain check doesn't improve your experience, it simply worsens his. 

And avoiding sex until it is late enough that you are tired - and then hitting him with a 'hurry up and finish' vibe. That is very hurtful to your H. 

------
That said, I am guessing that you have a very hard time being 'fully present in the moment' while having sex. 

Instead, somehow your mind is churning through stuff you are worried about. Child stuff, you stuff, mom stuff. 

Which is why Deejo, the guy who is providing security for your threads, suggested early on that until you get effective treatment for your anxiety, not much is going to improve. 





thetiredmommy said:


> Well if I'm not in the mood, I ask for a raincheck and try again tomorrow. I started this when my h called me out on asking for a rain check but not following through. :-/


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## Durnik (Aug 26, 2014)

OP, I am curious.

What would happen if you communicated with your spouse and made radical changes for a month? 30 days.

If, for 30 days, you wake up with your husband and help get the family ready for the day?

If, in your free time at home, you cleaned and cooked, and made making your husband happy your TOP priority. 

Let your daughter play (as much as she will - I expect at his point she's trained to need to be played with, and will be hovering in YOUR shadow!)

Your husband got home from work, and you greeted him at the door with a passionate kiss, telling him you've been eager to see him again. Especially if you take the time to make sure you're looking good for him - no <shudder> pajama pants or old t-shirts?

If, every day, - every... single... day... - you found a different way to let your husband know you're thinking of him, and you want to make his day a little happier?

And every night, once the little one went down, instead of turning on the tv, offer your husband the pleasure of your company, curled up against his chest, and just rested there?

If either of you head out for a bit, make a point of WANTING to be with him once you got home, and letting him know once you did?

Every night, make the offer of some form of sexual contact with him, and then go to sleep?

Re-iterating the no TV part.

What would happen if, when you and your husband had free time together, you asked him what he wanted to do, then asked him if he'd like you to join him? If you made a point of saying "Yes" to your hubby more often than you said "No"?

If, in setting out on a challenge like this, you asked your husband what else he could come up with that would meet his wildest dreams - and then added THEM to this list?

What would happen if you did all of that, without asking for one single thing in return, one word of complaint, and a smile (presumably strained, at first).

I know that probably sounds exhausting, and scary as all get-out, and a complete violation of all the anti-heteronormative assigned gender roles you're comfortable with. 

But I also know that your husband would be one of the happiest men on earth, three times as eager to make you happy in return, and the envy of nearly every man he knew.

What would happen if you were to treat it as an experiment, see how you like it, and you're free to walk away from it afterwards, knowing for sure if you liked it or not, and likely finding at least a FEW lessons you liked along the way?

Cause I know it sounds exhausting, but... it's pretty much what your husband is doing all the time. With little support or encouragement from you. The only things keeping him going are the joy he feels when manages (somehow) to do something right, and the fact that he loves you. 

He does it for you - what would happen if you TRIED to do it for him?


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## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

Durnik said:


> OP, I am curious.
> 
> What would happen if you communicated with your spouse and made radical changes for a month? 30 days.
> 
> ...


Sorry not answering. We took our girl to the aquarium


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I'm going to suggest that you ignore the title, totally open you mind and read a book called The Surrendered Wife. And don't mention it to your mother.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

If this person indeed is serious...

I'm not sure it helps to claim that her husband will _definitely_ leave her. In my experience many people, sadly, think it's perfectly natural for marital sex to be optional, and an option that isn't really taken all that often. In the US alone there is an ongoing joke about marriage = sexlessness. 

There is a real chance that Tired's husband doesn't even realize it can get considerable better. He might think it's perfectly normal to be a good provider and husband who needs to beg and grovel for the little sex he gets, kowtow to the needs of both his wife and mother in law, and not really have his concerns taken all that seriously when he does dare voice them.

Many people wouldn't blink an eye at this situation. Men being men, women being women they'd say.


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## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

Abc123wife said:


> PBear said:
> 
> 
> > Just as an FYI, this is one of the primary reason why my ex is my ex. I could have wallpapered our house with unredeemed rain checks. IMHO, this is a HUGE no-no.
> ...


Well I guess we were at almost every day when we were trying to get pregnant. That was our highest frequency ever. After I got pregnant we stopped having sex because I was afraid of miscarriage. We slowly worked up to about twice a month.


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## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I'm going to suggest that you ignore the title, totally open you mind and read a book called The Surrendered Wife. And don't mention it to your mother.


You really guessed right. I'm turned off by the title. The title sounds like it goes against what my mom taught me. Why do you think that it would be helpful?


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

That peak was 4 years ago. And he's asking for more now,and you're giving him rain checks and letting them bounce. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Tired,
> 
> I hope you realize - that you very much are welcome here.
> 
> ...


I think the raincheck helps me plan the night so that I can get ready for sex. I still plan on doing it tonight after we're done watching this movie.


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## Vivid (Aug 28, 2014)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I'm going to suggest that you ignore the title, totally open you mind and read a book called The Surrendered Wife. And don't mention it to your mother.


Maybe His Needs, Her Needs would be a better place to start.


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## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

I'm sorry, but every time I see the title of this thread I have a naughty chuckle to myself.


"Does this seem rigid"?

*Gasp* "Yes, it's wonderful!"


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## Durnik (Aug 26, 2014)

Surrendered wife is good - I also liked "The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands" by Dr. Laura.

OP - take your time. I'd appreciate an answer when you can.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Vivid said:


> Maybe His Needs, Her Needs would be a better place to start.



One has to be fairly selfless to get a benefit from his needs her needs. Surrendered wife specifically addresses empowering women and feminism.


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## IcePrincess28 (Aug 4, 2014)

I really like Durnik's 30 day suggestion. Give it a try. It can't hurt. And in addition- might help re-wire your sleeping schedule.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good afternoon thetiredmommy
Ouch! I was in that situation for a while. My wife wanted to get pregnant so we had sex for that purpose. I'm afraid that just made the rejections more miserable when she wasn't trying to conceive. Is showed that she was willing to have sex to get what *she* wanted. 

Please try to be more passionate for your and your husband's sake. 




thetiredmommy said:


> Well I guess we were at almost every day when we were trying to get pregnant. That was our highest frequency ever. After I got pregnant we stopped having sex because I was afraid of miscarriage. We slowly worked up to about twice a month.


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## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> Good afternoon thetiredmommy
> Ouch! I was in that situation for a while. My wife wanted to get pregnant so we had sex for that purpose. I'm afraid that just made the rejections more miserable when she wasn't trying to conceive. Is showed that she was willing to have sex to get what *she* wanted.
> 
> Please try to be more passionate for your and your husband's sake.
> ...


Do you think he feels the same way? Even if I told him that it's not about me not loving him?


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

thetiredmommy said:


> Do you think he feels the same way? Even if I told him that it's not about me not loving him?


Ultimately, it won't matter what you say.

It matters what you do.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Deejo said:


> Ultimately, it won't matter what you say.
> 
> It matters what you do.


:iagree:

Tired, it happens all the time that two people can love each other and still not be good for each other. 

If I love my wife, but I don't give her what she NEEDS, then ultimately it doesn't really matter if I love her. My love for her matters to ME, but what matters to HER is that I'm not giving her what she needs. In effect, she can't feel my love for her unless I give her what she needs.

This is where your husband is. You can tell him you love him. He can even believe that you love him on some level. But if you don't demonstrate your love for him on a level that he can receive, then it doesn't matter. 

Remember to make love a verb.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

thetiredmommy said:


> You really guessed right. I'm turned off by the title. The title sounds like it goes against what my mom taught me. Why do you think that it would be helpful?


Did your mother also teach you to think for yourself? If not, might be a good time to start.


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## Abc123wife (Sep 18, 2013)

thetiredmommy said:


> Do you think he feels the same way? Even if I told him that it's not about me not loving him?


Why are you not talking to him about all this? Better yet, why are not listening to him about this? He has already told you he wants sex more often but that hasn't gone up much in the last 4 years. He already told you he wants to have BJs without a condom as you promised he would get after marriage but you backed out of that and now don't even do them at all. He told you are too rigid for the few times he gets sex, but you are too tired and won't allow foreplay, don't like the mess, and tell him to get it over with quickly. He already told you he wants 1 hour per week to jog but you won't even give him that.

You can tell him all you want that you love him, but that may not be enough for him. He will come to interpret your selfishness as you loving yourself more than you love him. You haven't changed much in more than 4 years and he may reach his limit.


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## U.E. McGill (Nov 27, 2013)

thetiredmommy said:


> Do you think he feels the same way? Even if I told him that it's not about me not loving him?



We tell betrayed husbands all the time "don't listen to their words. ACTIONS. Watch their actions. "

Your actions as a wife tell me that you detest physical contact (no fluids) with your husband. That you can't keep your promises (BJ's without condoms) and that your needs are greater than his (no jogging because you sleep)


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

Is rigid really the right word for this behavior?


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening thetiredmommy
I don't know how he feels - different people react differently to these situations. I know that my wife never understood how unhappy I was. Never realized just how miserable she had made me all those years. (despite my many attempts to make it clear to her)

I finally had a conversation she listened to - but even now I don't think she understands that I was expecting that conversation to end with my telling her I wanted a divorce. For me there would have been no stepping back from that point. I was not willing to "threaten" divorce to get a good sex life - but I was willing to divorce if I couldn't have one with her. 

You may be on extremely thin ice and not know it. 



thetiredmommy said:


> Do you think he feels the same way? Even if I told him that it's not about me not loving him?


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

Outside of religious reasons, parenting and social mores that might make one hesitate to divorce, what do you think it is about YOU, that gets him to stay? You don't have to answer out loud (in writing here) but I really suggest you think about it.

What do you bring to the table and to your marriage that gives your man incentive to stay married to you. 

It is probably not cooking, he could learn if he doesn't know how or go out to eat if you didn't cook. It's also something you'd have to do married or not. Same with cleaning the house. Also much of the childcare. Much of those are things you'd have to do married or not and many of them could be delegated elsewhere.

If you were him, would you want to be married to you? If so, why and if not then why not? What can and should you improve? Again don't have to answer me but I do hope you think about it.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

thetiredmommy said:


> Do you think he feels the same way? Even if I told him that it's not about me not loving him?


After a while talk is really cheap.

You've already detailed a history of your husband bringing up multiple issues in your marriage and you basically dismissing most of those issues, save "allowing" a few concessions, and even giving your mother permission to help run your family. 

You have devalued the power of your promises with bounced rainchecks, refusal, control, and dismissal. So answer yourself honestly, why would your husband believe a word you say?


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## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

Durnik said:


> OP, I am curious.
> 
> What would happen if you communicated with your spouse and made radical changes for a month? 30 days.
> 
> ...


It does sound exhausting and yes, it does feel like a uncomfortable doing the heternormative roles. He's a new age, progressive man, so I don't even know if he would be comfortable with this. I mean, for one, he comes home (well except when he works late), so it doesn't make sense for me to make dinner. 

This seems like a little too much change, especially if he thinks this will be the norm. 

Also, I don't want to lose track of my shows. I could end up missing alot in a month...


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## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

IcePrincess28 said:


> I really like Durnik's 30 day suggestion. Give it a try. It can't hurt. And in addition- might help re-wire your sleeping schedule.


But it seems like so much, I honestly worry that I'm going to collapse from exhaustion. Also, all my free time is gone and it all becomes his time. At least the tv shows is our time, you know?


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

thetiredmommy said:


> This seems like a little too much change, especially if he thinks this will be the norm.
> 
> Also, I don't want to lose track of my shows. I could end up missing alot in a month...


And this is what it comes down to. You don't want to make lasting changes, and your tv is a priority over your husband. Maybe start collecting cats now, so you're accustomed to be surrounded by them later. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

jaquen said:


> After a while talk is really cheap.
> 
> You've already detailed a history of your husband bringing up multiple issues in your marriage and you basically dismissing most of those issues, save "allowing" a few concessions, and even giving your mother permission to help run your family.
> 
> You have devalued the power of your promises with bounced rainchecks, refusal, control, and dismissal. So answer yourself honestly, why would your husband believe a word you say?


Well because you make it sound worse than it is. I am good on my word most of the time, just like most people are. I didn't follow-through this past weekend because I caught a cold, but I might feel better tonight. This weekend, he did go on a run and I didn't say anything about it, even though I didn't get to nap.


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## TheCuriousWife (Jan 28, 2013)

thetiredmommy said:


> Also, I don't want to lose track of my shows. I could end up missing alot in a month...
> 
> This weekend, he did go on a run and I didn't say anything about it, even though I didn't get to nap.


The horror.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

thetiredmommy said:


> It does sound exhausting and yes, it does feel like a uncomfortable doing the heternormative roles. He's a new age, progressive man, so I don't even know if he would be comfortable with this. I mean, for one, he comes home (well except when he works late), so it doesn't make sense for me to make dinner.
> 
> This seems like a little too much change, especially if he thinks this will be the norm.
> 
> ...


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## TheCuriousWife (Jan 28, 2013)

WandaJ said:


> giving oral through condom? that must taste awful!!!!!!!


I've tried it before. With the flavored ones just to see what it taste like. No joke, all I could think about was rubber balloons, and I was gagging so bad we had to stop. 

Give me good old fashioned skin please.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

thetiredmommy said:


> It does sound exhausting and yes, it does feel like a uncomfortable doing the heternormative roles. He's a new age, progressive man, so I don't even know if he would be comfortable with this. I mean, for one, he comes home (well except when he works late), so it doesn't make sense for me to make dinner.
> 
> This seems like a little too much change, especially if he thinks this will be the norm.
> 
> Also, I don't want to lose track of my shows. I could end up missing alot in a month...





thetiredmommy said:


> But it seems like so much, I honestly worry that I'm going to collapse from exhaustion. Also, all my free time is gone and it all becomes his time. At least the tv shows is our time, you know?


Wow...just wow. People have been giving you the benefit of the doubt that you actually wanted to fix things...

You have been noticing cracks in the foundation of your marriage, but are just fighting tooth and nail against actually doing anything on your part...are you truly this lazy and disinterested in your husband and marriage?


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## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

TheCuriousWife said:


> I've tried it before. With the flavored ones just to see what it taste like. No joke, all I could think about was rubber balloons, and I was gagging so bad we had to stop.
> 
> Give me good old fashioned skin please.


But that's the way I feel about his skin, though. I get all these racing thoughts about what I could be coming in contact with like bacteria, urine, or semen. It makes me nauseous.


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## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

samyeagar said:


> Wow...just wow. People have been giving you the benefit of the doubt that you actually wanted to fix things...
> 
> You have been noticing cracks in the foundation of your marriage, but are just fighting tooth and nail against actually doing anything on your part...are you truly this lazy and disinterested in your husband and marriage?


I'm not lazy, though. I work hard to take care of my child and I clean the house and do laundry and work part time. It's just as hard a job as he has. I just need extra support because I battle depression and anxiety. The medicine helps but I need that emotional support and patience from him.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

thetiredmommy said:


> But that's the way I feel about his skin, though. I get all these racing thoughts about what I could be coming in contact with like bacteria, urine, or semen. It makes me nauseous.


How do you function on a daily basis? Or is this revulsion reserved just for your husband?


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all, 
I really hope this is a troll. 

On the chance that its real: Tiredmommy - you are close to losing everything. You have heard variations of the same advice from lots of people here. 

I'l also giving up here.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

thetiredmommy said:


> Well because you make it sound worse than it is.


No, if it's sounding worse than it is that's because you're painting it that way. I'm just regurgitating the issues you've brought up across three threads so far. You seem unwilling, or unable, to comprehend just how bad you've painted yourself in your own marriage. 

So if it sounds "worse than it is", can you tell us what benefit does your husband receive from being married to you? So far we've seen a lot of shocking negatives but are we missing the positives?

What are the upsides to Mr. TiredMommy staying in a marriage with you?


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

thetiredmommy said:


> *I'm not lazy, though*. I work hard to take care of my child and I clean the house and do laundry and work part time. It's just as hard a job as he has. I just need extra support because I battle depression and anxiety. The medicine helps but I need that emotional support and patience from him.


You are lazy though when it comes to what your husband has said he needs from you in this marriage. You just said you were not willing to put in the effort long term, or even short term because it would be too hard, he might come to expect it, you might miss your shows.


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## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

I'm sorry. All this change scares me. I'm used to my life and it gives me a sense of security. Changing it all up for 30 days feels scary to me. This all feels scary to me. I hear all this feedback and sometimes it is hard to hear that most people don't do things the way we do. Sometimes what you're saying sounds like my husband. That's scary too. It's hard to see the world one way, then find out it's not as neat and clean as you thought it was. I"m used to thinking that a marriage is about the mom taking care of the child and the husband takes care of the wife to keep things together.


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## TheCuriousWife (Jan 28, 2013)

thetiredmommy said:


> I"m used to thinking that a marriage is about the mom taking care of the child and the husband takes care of the wife to keep things together.


If this is true, who takes care of the husband?


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

You don't have to change everything at once. Pick something, and let go of that one thing. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

PBear said:


> You don't have to change everything at once. Pick something, and let go of that one thing.
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


intensive therapy for your OCD/anxiety issues would be the best place to start imo


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

I'm sorry, we've got somebody here who can expound on the conflicting roles of spouses in a heteronormative society, feminism, and the sub/dom culture, yet she's also this sexually naive innocent who gives sporadic BJs _with a condom on_, won't allow a tongue near her clit, feels mutual oral sex at the same time is "animalistic", is allergic to foreplay, only wants missionary quickies once or twice a month, however she claims she always orgasms off said quick, nearly non-existent, missionary quickes.

The holes in this story are mounting with every post. This doesn't even begin to cover the fact that she claimed to be seeing the many errors of her ways yet today is now talking about how she refuses to put her husband...before her TV shows.

We've all been duped.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

thetiredmommy said:


> I'm sorry. All this change scares me. I'm used to my life and it gives me a sense of security. Changing it all up for 30 days feels scary to me. This all feels scary to me. I hear all this feedback and sometimes it is hard to hear that most people don't do things the way we do. Sometimes what you're saying sounds like my husband. That's scary too. It's hard to see the world one way, then find out it's not as neat and clean as you thought it was. *I"m used to thinking that a marriage is about the mom taking care of the child and the husband takes care of the wife to keep things together*.


For someone who claims to be so enlightened, what you describe there seems to be VERY genderized and archaic.

The divorce rate has skyrocketed over the past several years. It's not because marriages now are worse than they ever have been in the past. It's just a whole lot easier to get a divorce is all. There were a lot of miserable marriages back in the good ol' days, and not just miserable women...lot's of miserable husbands too.

.


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## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

Almostrecovered said:


> intensive therapy for your OCD/anxiety issues would be the best place to start imo


I know. I've been in therapy off and on for years. I also take anti-depressants and benzodiazepines when needed.


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## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

You should be doing these things suggested for your husband because you love him, not out of obligation. Quit being so selfish. If you can't at least make an effort to please your husband, I'm afraid you will lose him and your marriage in the end.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

jaquen said:


> I'm sorry, we've got somebody here who can expound on the conflicting roles of spouses in a heteronormative society, feminism, and the sub/dom culture, yet she's also this sexually naive innocent who gives sporadic BJs _with a condom on_, won't allow a tongue near her clit, feels mutual oral sex at the same time is "animalistic", is allergic to foreplay, only wants missionary quickies once or twice a month, however she claims she always orgasms off said quick, nearly non-existent, missionary quickes.
> 
> The holes in this story are mounting with every post. This doesn't even begin to cover the fact that she claimed to be seeing the many errors of her ways yet today is now talking about how she refuses to put her husband...before her TV shows.
> 
> We've all been duped.


Don't forget. She considers him a porn addict. And he's allowed to masturbate as long as he thinks about the great sex with her. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

thetiredmommy said:


> I know. I've been in therapy off and on for years. I also take anti-depressants and benzodiazepines when needed.


So how's this going for you? Have you seen any improvements? More importantly, has your husband and child seen any improvements?

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TheCuriousWife (Jan 28, 2013)

Jaquen, I prefer this one. 










(Not saying this is fake. I'm undecided. Just thought GIF was funny.)


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

thetiredmommy said:


> I know. I've been in therapy off and on for years. I also take anti-depressants and benzodiazepines when needed.



while meds can aid in your situation, intensive therapy in learning to control your irrational fears, urges, and impulses are much needed


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## greenfern (Oct 20, 2012)

TheCuriousWife said:


> If this is true, who takes care of the husband?


Please think about this tired mommy. Your ideas about feminism are just so...backwards. Your resistance to addressing your husbands needs is incredible..its almost like you think he doesn't even have real needs.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

jaquen said:


> I'm sorry, we've got somebody here who can expound on the conflicting roles of spouses in a heteronormative society, feminism, and the sub/dom culture, yet she's also this sexually naive innocent who gives sporadic BJs _with a condom on_, won't allow a tongue near her clit, feels mutual oral sex at the same time is "animalistic", is allergic to foreplay, only wants missionary quickies once or twice a month, however she claims she always orgasms off said quick, nearly non-existent, missionary quickes.
> 
> The holes in this story are mounting with every post. This doesn't even begin to cover the fact that she claimed to be seeing the many errors of her ways yet today is now talking about how she refuses to put her husband...before her TV shows.
> 
> We've all been duped.


Nah...I haven't  I'm just playing along.


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## greenfern (Oct 20, 2012)

Tiredmommy, I used to have a narrow minded view of men. I used to think they didn't have the same emotions & needs that women have. And I also considered myself a feminist!

During and after my divorce I realized my view of men was just as bad as how I felt they viewed women. Men have desires and needs regarding sex that aren't just about the physical act of sex - it is emotional also. They do not have the ability to carry an unlimited burden of familial responsibility without repercussions. 

You demand far more from your husband than you give and this is unsustainable and unfair.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

thetiredmommy said:


> I'm sorry. All this change scares me. I'm used to my life and it gives me a sense of security. Changing it all up for 30 days feels scary to me. This all feels scary to me. I hear all this feedback and sometimes it is hard to hear that most people don't do things the way we do. Sometimes what you're saying sounds like my husband. That's scary too. It's hard to see the world one way, then find out it's not as neat and clean as you thought it was. *I"m used to thinking that a marriage is about the mom taking care of the child and the husband takes care of the wife to keep things together*.


Who takes care of the husband?

Why would a man want to be in a marriage where no one is taking care of him?


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Who takes care of the husband?


His mistress of course!


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Tired,

This type of honesty is exactly what is needed for you to work on your marriage. 

THIS bit below, is what I was expecting to hear. 

You mostly don't experience sex the way most people do. 

Between the background noise in your head about non sexual stuff, and the sort of OCD germaphobe revulsion. 

You have a serious case of cognitive dissonance. 

On the one hand your H is handsome and you find him attractive. You know you are supposed to like sex, and you do orgasm. 

On the other hand, all that saliva and semen and sweat and yucky physicality. 

-------

Until you find a therapist who is really skilled at treating:
- your anxiety and
- your OCD / germaphobe issues 

Your sex life won't improve much. 

The reason you wait until late at night and want him to hurry up and get it over with - isn't because you are a bad person. It's because it does not feel good to you. 

-----
I do think you might benefit from the right meds. Your brain chemistry is not calibrated for a happy life. 

I also wonder what a hard daily cardio workout might do for you. It helps many folks with anxiety. 






thetiredmommy said:


> But that's the way I feel about his skin, though. I get all these racing thoughts about what I could be coming in contact with like bacteria, urine, or semen. It makes me nauseous.


----------



## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

TheCuriousWife said:


> I'll help you out!
> 
> No one needs to take care of the man. He is a man after all.



not wordy enough


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*The tone on this thread*

All,
This is in many ways a remarkable thread. Largely because Tired is being both transparent and tenacious - she is rather out numbered here. 

I do believe that Tired is aware that her H is gradually becoming frustrated with her and that is partly why she is here. 

Lets try to be constructive. 




WorkingOnMe said:


> His mistress of course!


----------



## TheCuriousWife (Jan 28, 2013)

Almostrecovered said:


> not wordy enough




I was paraphrasing of course. 

I could have spent 15 minutes writing out a lengthy and witty reply, but "ain't nobody got time for that."


----------



## TheCuriousWife (Jan 28, 2013)

*Re: The tone on this thread*



MEM11363 said:


> All,
> This is in many ways a remarkable thread. Largely because Tired is being both transparent and tenacious - she is rather out numbered here.
> 
> I do believe that Tired is aware that her H is gradually becoming frustrated with her and that is partly why she is here.
> ...


:iagree:

I'm just feeling rather ornery today. All my posts have been wise cracks. None of them meant to upset or hurt feelings.


----------



## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

*Re: The tone on this thread*



TheCuriousWife said:


> :iagree:
> 
> I'm just feeling rather ornery today. All my posts have been wise cracks. None of them meant to upset or hurt feelings.


welcome to my world


----------



## TheCuriousWife (Jan 28, 2013)

*Re: The tone on this thread*



Almostrecovered said:


> welcome to my world


I must say, I've had quite a few belly laughs today.


----------



## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

It's like being Santa on Xmas eve!


----------



## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Tired,
> 
> This type of honesty is exactly what is needed for you to work on your marriage.
> 
> ...


This is what's scary. You seem to get me. I'm trying to put it out there, but I know I seem like a mess when I say one thing and do another. It's like you said...cognitive dissonance. My therapist mentions that a lot in our sessions. So yeah, I feel very exposed and vulnerable right now...and I tell myself that my H won't leave, but you're right, I notice something is up. he's changing and that's scary for me. He used to be so sensitive to my needs, but now he tells me what he's doing instead of asking. Then people are saying he's getting shape to get out of our marriage. That's hard because I have abandonment issues, always have.


----------



## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

have you ever looked into ERP?



> There is a form of therapy that consistently alleviates OCD symptoms, but it’s among the cruelest and most agonizing procedures in all of psychotherapy. And it doesn’t involve protecting the person with OCD from his or her worst fears. In fact, this treatment requires that the sufferer confront them, directly, and without any kind of protection.
> 
> The treatment is called Exposure and Response Prevention, or ERP therapy. ERP works when, guided by a trained therapist, the sufferer approaches the object of his or her fear without indulging in any compulsive ritual behaviors. These exposure exercises often involve doing things that would make anyone, even someone without an anxiety disorder, deeply uncomfortable.


I know it sounds horrid but it has quite a high success rate

Full Exposure: The Sickening Treatment for OCD | Psychology Today


----------



## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Tired,
> 
> *This type of honesty is exactly what is needed for you to work on your marriage.*
> 
> ...


I might buy this if it wasn't for the total disregard, and seeming inability to consider what her husband has been telling her about a whole host of other issues as well.


----------



## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

TheCuriousWife said:


> I was paraphrasing of course.
> 
> I could have spent 15 minutes writing out a lengthy and witty reply, but "ain't nobody got time for that."


What I'm hearing you say is that you were paraphrasing because you are very busy and you didn't have time to write a longer response?


----------



## Abc123wife (Sep 18, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> OK, I call BS. I no longer believe this is real. And if it is real, you don't want to be helped.
> 
> I'm out.


Agreed, tiredmommy needs to crawl back under the bridge now. This has gone too far! Way beyond being believable.


----------



## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

Almostrecovered said:


> have you ever looked into ERP?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, I've done and am doing exposure with response prevention. Overall, cognitive behavioral therapy works really well for me. I know it's probably hard to believe but I have actually come a long way.


----------



## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Abc123wife said:


> Agreed, tiredmommy needs to crawl back under the bridge now. This has gone too far! Way beyond being believable.


For those of you who don't believe a poster is real, it's simple to report the post and then walk away. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> Hmmm...wish jld was here to offer her thoughts...


Now now Sam, it's time to move on and pick on someone here who can actually defend themselves. Since JLD no longer posts here your comment above smacks of baiting and inciting and given the history, on the mean side.

But, seeing as how I'm friends with her I'll take a stab at it.
I'm paraphrasing now because she would be much kinder than me, and much more encouraging to the OP than me.

Who takes care of her husband? His wife will once he finds his balls and stops putting up with her OCD, self centered sense of entitlement. 

JLD gets banned for baiting and inciting because some don't want to dialogue about ideas they don't like, and yet the sarcasm and meanness directed at her goes on and on and on and on...


----------



## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Then keep at it


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

thetiredmommy said:


> This is what's scary. You seem to get me. I'm trying to put it out there, but I know I seem like a mess when I say one thing and do another. It's like you said...cognitive dissonance. My therapist mentions that a lot in our sessions. So yeah, I feel very exposed and vulnerable right now...and I tell myself that my H won't leave, but you're right, I notice something is up. he's changing and that's scary for me. He used to be so sensitive to my needs, but now he tells me what he's doing instead of asking. Then people are saying he's getting shape to get out of our marriage. That's hard because I have abandonment issues, always have.


I have some other thoughts to offer. I don't know how helpful they will be. You mention long, hard days. Aside from the people who are rightly telling you to work the anxiety angle, and work on that, I think you can do things to reduce this sense of over work. I don't remember how old your kids are. But even very young kids can be PART of the housework. Therein you are being productive at caring for the kids as well as the housework, while teaching them valuable skills in the process. 

Also, it helps to get organized in the housework department. There is a concept of FLYing. Finally Loving Yourself - ing. One thing we mammas sometimes do is.... to much. Put a load of perfectionism on ourselves. Check out FlyLady.net if you have not seen it before. It can be helpful to have support to the housekeeping as well.


----------



## Rooster2014 (Aug 23, 2014)

thetiredmommy said:


> Well today has been a long day but since I'm already exposing all my issues, I might as well explore another one... My husband said I don't let go during sex and it feels restraining. He might get me in the mood by kissing my neck from behind our another move but then I ask that we brush our teeth and put a sheet on the bed for the mess... then I'm not much into foreplay so I want him to get started instead of all the extra touching and I usually don't like oral. He said that this doesn't seem typical for a usual married couple. Is it different from how you have sex?


You should understand marriage puts the two of you as one. It's now a team effort. As much as you ask him to see your needs you need to see his. Both of you sit down and find a way to meet in the middle. Personally I'm really glad I am not married to someone with these issues. They are really out of line for most marriages. I think you need to to find a way to satisfy him or you maybe on your own!


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Would "Passionate Marriage" help here? I read it a long time ago. Anyone?


----------



## greenfern (Oct 20, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> I have some other thoughts to offer. I don't know how helpful they will be. You mention long, hard days. Aside from the people who are rightly telling you to work the anxiety angle, and work on that, I think you can do things to reduce this sense of over work. I don't remember how old your kids are. But even very young kids can be PART of the housework. Therein you are being productive at caring for the kids as well as the housework, while teaching them valuable skills in the process.
> 
> Also, it helps to get organized in the housework department. There is a concept of FLYing. Finally Loving Yourself - ing. One thing we mammas sometimes do is.... to much. Put a load of perfectionism on ourselves. Check out FlyLady.net if you have not seen it before. It can be helpful to have support to the housekeeping as well.


The OP only has one child, a 4yr old. She works 16 hours a week and her mother takes care of the child while she works. Her husband picks up the child after work, and (often) makes the dinner & puts child to bed.

OP the reason you don't get a lot of sympathy for your 'busy' life is because tbh it doesn't sound that busy. A lot of people here are single parents of multiple children, work full time, and don't have the kind of assistance you have. Don't take it for granted, be thankful for the help, and acknowledge that they are going above & beyond their duties in giving up their life for yours.


----------



## greenfern (Oct 20, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> Would "Passionate Marriage" help here? I read it a long time ago. Anyone?


I haven't read it but from what I have heard, "his needs, her needs" would be good. OP would you read it? You need to acknowledge that he has needs and they are as important as your needs. Until you get to that point you are doomed to repeat the cycle.


----------



## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

greenfern said:


> I haven't read it but from what I have heard, "his needs, her needs" would be good. OP would you read it? * You need to acknowledge that he has needs and they are as important as your needs.* *Until you get to that point you are doomed to repeat the cycle.*


:iagree:

This is step 1 for all of her threads.


----------



## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

norajane said:


> :iagree:
> 
> This is step 1 for all of her threads.


Aye lassie, and therin lie the rub...

Along with her depression and anxiety, she has also apparently been indoctrinated with what she calls feminism, strong, empowered womanhood, enlightenment...the only problem is...what she describes is not a mantra of equality, but one of superiority that have nothing to do with feminism, empowered womanhood, enlightenment. When one spends their life feeling superior without even realizing they are feeling superior, it is difficult to come to terms with when reality doesn't match.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Tired,

You have enough overlap with M2 for me to get pretty far into your head. 

Every once in a while, when M2 is internally conflicted to the point of deadlock, I smile and say: It must be hard to be you.

And you are reading his behavior correctly. He is becoming weary of this whole: it's all about you all the time

And yes, I got to that point with M2. For the same reasons - except for sex. M2 likes sex and is an olympic class paramour. But other than in bed, she had a sadly one sided view of how things ought to be. 

We/she is much better now, which is why you feel no animosity from me. 

-----
I have a deep enough understanding of anxiety to share a thought with you. Separate from the bio chemistry: Anxiety is primarily driven by the absence of faith. You lack faith that somehow everything is going to turn out ok. 

I'm not trying to sell you on religion or God. I am telling you that until you find a way to have a reasonable amount of faith in the future, you will feel tense and drained most of the time. 
-----

How well are you managing lifestyle factors that influence your brain chemistry / how you feel? 

On a scale of 1-10 where 10 is best, rank yourself on:

1. Exercise
2. Diet (how is your blood sugar? Stress hormones can screw up your blood sugar and I note that your mom is pre diabetic)
3. Touch/affection (not sex, but a high level of touch) - sometimes this goes out the window when a couples sex life is very strained. While that is normal, it is physiologically harmful. 

You should massage your husband and he should massage you. Can be done while watching tv. 

4. Faith - faith in some higher power can be helpful. 

5. CBT exercises - where you create a feedback loop through positive activities. 






thetiredmommy said:


> This is what's scary. You seem to get me. I'm trying to put it out there, but I know I seem like a mess when I say one thing and do another. It's like you said...cognitive dissonance. My therapist mentions that a lot in our sessions. So yeah, I feel very exposed and vulnerable right now...and I tell myself that my H won't leave, but you're right, I notice something is up. he's changing and that's scary for me. He used to be so sensitive to my needs, but now he tells me what he's doing instead of asking. Then people are saying he's getting shape to get out of our marriage. That's hard because I have abandonment issues, always have.


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Cease the personal attacks, both upon the original poster and those who aren't even participating in the thread.


----------



## IcePrincess28 (Aug 4, 2014)

Tired mommy- 

Things have to change. In short- you're very wrong in much of all this. And you need to be accountable for your actions- instead of attributing what you do think of as possible faults- solely to depression, anxiety and OCD. 

As a mother to two, one of who is also 4. I have to give you a unique perspective to all this- next year your daughter will be in school. Your role- will become much clearer to your husband. It's up to you- to show whether you're a contributor. Or a taker.

Can you give some background on what it is you do for work- if you're comfortable with it. And your principles of how much of that income you contribute to your family pot. 

Is this job something that causes you stress or it makes you happy.


----------



## TheCuriousWife (Jan 28, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Now now Sam, it's time to move on and pick on someone here who can actually defend themselves. Since JLD no longer posts here your comment above smacks of baiting and inciting and given the history, on the mean side.
> 
> But, seeing as how I'm friends with her I'll take a stab at it.
> I'm paraphrasing now because she would be much kinder than me, and much more encouraging to the OP than me.
> ...


I was only kidding Anon. I would never purposely hurt anyone's feelings. I apologize for my banter. Sometimes I am too bold.

I didn't realize she was gone for good? I found her story quite interesting.

And now, I will stay on topic.


----------



## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Deejo said:


> Cease the personal attacks, both upon the original poster and those who aren't even participating in the thread.


Not only will I cease, but I volunteer to desist as well


----------



## TheCuriousWife (Jan 28, 2013)

Thetiredmommy, what are you willing to do to improve your marriage? You have gotten a lot of helpful advice, but you need to take the first step. It seems daunting, but just work on one thing at a time.


----------



## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

greenfern said:


> I haven't read it but from what I have heard, "his needs, her needs" would be good. OP would you read it? You need to acknowledge that he has needs and they are as important as your needs. Until you get to that point you are doomed to repeat the cycle.


I might look into His Needs Her Needs. I want to say that my H wanted us to read that together after our baby was born.


----------



## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

TheCuriousWife said:


> Thetiredmommy, what are you willing to do to improve your marriage? You have gotten a lot of helpful advice, but you need to take the first step. It seems daunting, but just work on one thing at a time.


Well I'm going to make an effort to try to get in the mood for sex and so that I might want it more often. I think that might be a good first step.


----------



## TheCuriousWife (Jan 28, 2013)

It seems your husband has tried many times to "wake you up" that he is unhappy. You have to start taking his needs seriously. They are just as important as yours.


----------



## TheCuriousWife (Jan 28, 2013)

thetiredmommy said:


> Well I'm going to make an effort to try to get in the mood for sex and so that I might want it more often. I think that might be a good first step.


That is a good first step. But you also need to realize that all his needs are important and not just the sexual ones.

I think from another thread he was asking to go jogging once a week and you were upset. He was voicing a desire of his, which you had excuses not to fulfill.


----------



## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

TheCuriousWife said:


> It seems your husband has tried many times to "wake you up" that he is unhappy. You have to start taking his needs seriously. They are just as important as yours.


It is disheartening to see that when ever anyone comes up with a suggestion, or relays how they felt from a similar experience, that her husband has said, suggested and done pretty much all of them already...and she has disregarded it from him.


----------



## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Tired,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1. Exercise: 7. I work out about 3-5 times a week, two of those days are pilates classes, which are about 90 minutes long.

2. Diet: 9. I really watch what I eat. No caffeine, very little red meat. I eats lots of fruits and veggies with lean meats like fish and turkey. My kind of dessert is milk or dark chocolate. 

3. Touch/affection: 8. I like to hug and LOVE to cuddle with him on the couch and in bed. He gives me lots of massages. He usually doesn't ask for massages. One time I offered and he asked for a bj instead. :-/

4. Faith: 3. You're totally right about this. I often worry and don't feel a sense of control. My H is not a practicing Christian, but tells me to have faith in something or someone. I struggle with ambiguities much more than him. 

5. CBT: 7. I probably do more thought challenging, but I don't always remember to work on certain behaviors or activities.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

thetiredmommy said:


> Well I'm going to make an effort to try to get in the mood for sex and so that I might want it more often. I think that might be a good first step.


One thing that worked for me was to fake it until I could make it. Now, be careful. Not just fake it... forever. but fake it to MAKE it...


----------



## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

IcePrincess28 said:


> Tired mommy-
> 
> Things have to change. In short- you're very wrong in much of all this. And you need to be accountable for your actions- instead of attributing what you do think of as possible faults- solely to depression, anxiety and OCD.
> 
> ...


Ok...I'm a social worker. Right now my income goes toward shopping for groceries and paying the gas bill. 

I think it makes me happy and I like having a brief time out from our girl so that I can recharge and come back home ready to see her.


----------



## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> One thing that worked for me was to fake it until I could make it. Now, be careful. Not just fake it... forever. but fake it to MAKE it...


Maybe...my H recommended this before but I found it offensive, like I was just supposed to lie there and take just for him. I kinda see where he's coming from though. From people here, it sounds like he was thinking about us, not just him.


----------



## notperfectanymore (Mar 1, 2012)

thetiredmommy said:


> 3. Touch/affection: 8. I like to hug and LOVE to cuddle with him on the couch and in bed. He gives me lots of massages. He usually doesn't ask for massages. One time I offered and he asked for a bj instead. :-/


PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE read 5 love languages AND His Needs Her Needs. You know all the "warm fuzzy lovey yay he is into me feelings you get from the cuddling and back massages? He gets THE SAME FEELINGS from a bj. Not just a physical release. Your mom lied to you...sorry. Mine lied to me to...but I figured it out. PLEASE read those books. All your posts indicate your husband has tried REALLY hard...please do the same, it really does sound like he loves you....and everyone needs to be taken care of, even our men


----------



## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

You might find that the more sex you have, the more sex you want. Works that way for me.


----------



## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

karole said:


> You might find that the more sex you have, the more sex you want. Works that way for me.


I would hazard a guess that her husband may very well have suggested this also.


----------



## TheCuriousWife (Jan 28, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> It is disheartening to see that when ever anyone comes up with a suggestion, or relays how they felt from a similar experience, that her husband has said, suggested and done pretty much all of them already...and she has disregarded it from him.


:iagree:

Case in point. 

He's not allowed to go jogging once a week for an hour, but she works out 3 -5 times a week for 90 minutes each. 

Tiredmommy, that is a double standard.


----------



## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening TheTiredMommy
(still not sure if this is real).

I don't think you are the only woman who thinks and acts the way you do, so I'm not going to pick on you too much. But - I think your marriage is danger and that there maybe very little warning:

Maybe your husband will realize that he doesn't need to live like this. Maybe he will give in to temptation (and he is almost certainly tempted) and a fling with another woman will show him what he has been missing all these years. Either way, he may go very suddenly. If his behavior is starting to change, this may be your very last chance. 

The thing is, his leaving is NOT inevitable. He loves you and wants to be with you - otherwise he would have left long ago. 

As so many posters have suggested. TRY. Sex is a good place to start because it is so easy. An hour of passionate lovemaking every couple of days would be enough to dramatically change things. Do what he wants in bed, and ask for what you want. Don't do it out of fear that he will leave, but do it because you love him and want to make him happy. Later you can work on other things, but a good sex life will make up for a lot of issues.

Everyone deserves a partner who wants to make them happy, and I don't think anyone should stay in a relationship where that isn't the case. 

I think you are at a cross-roads. Take the wrong turn and your life will be empty and lonely. Take the right turn and you can have a happy loving marriage. 

People are shouting so loudly because we see you far out on the cracking ice. We really want to help, but once you fall through, there is nothing we can do when the icy current sweeps you under.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

thetiredmommy said:


> Maybe...my H recommended this before but I found it offensive, like I was just supposed to lie there and take just for him. I kinda see where he's coming from though. From people here, it sounds like he was thinking about us, not just him.


No your not supposed to just lie there. You are supposed to get in the game and TRY. You smile. You put on sexy lingerie. You don't just lie their like a blow up doll, you try to get into it.


----------



## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening TheTiredMommy
> (still not sure if this is real).
> 
> I don't think you are the only woman who thinks and acts the way you do, so I'm not going to pick on you too much. But - *I think your marriage is danger and that there maybe very little warning:*
> ...


From everything on this thread, and the others, there has been a LOT of warning, she has just chosen to disregard them in the process of disregarding her husband. From what she has said in response to people's suggestions here, he has given many of the same suggestions, made his needs known, and she has disregarded him at every turn...to the point of making it seem as if they are just very fundamentally incompatible...the things he suggests, wants needs, she can't bring herself to consider or do for various reasons...that doesn't make her a bad person, just not the right woman for him.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: The tone on this thread*

CW,

That really was meant as a general message. I wouldn't pick on you. 





TheCuriousWife said:


> :iagree:
> 
> I'm just feeling rather ornery today. All my posts have been wise cracks. None of them meant to upset or hurt feelings.


----------



## TheCuriousWife (Jan 28, 2013)

*Re: The tone on this thread*



MEM11363 said:


> CW,
> 
> That really was meant as a general message. I wouldn't pick on you.


I know that. Mine was a general message too. 

I didn't want to come across as being rude.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Tired. A brief story about my marriage. Many years ago I came to a board much like this one. He wants, but I feel... I think... But marriage is.... Sex was part of it even.

I got my head handed to me because unlike this one, it was an un-moderated board. (I get it if you are feeling attacked.) BUT I did finally get it. It was All About Me. I was not caring for HIM, who he was, what he wanted, what he needed.

I fixed that. Celebrated 20 deliriously happy years this year.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Tired,

I've got some serious yard work to do, but later tonight I'll reply to this. 

In the mean time, I hope you breathe deeply - and enjoy your day. 






thetiredmommy said:


> 1. Exercise: 7. I work out about 3-5 times a week, two of those days are pilates classes, which are about 90 minutes long.
> 
> 2. Diet: 9. I really watch what I eat. No caffeine, very little red meat. I eats lots of fruits and veggies with lean meats like fish and turkey. My kind of dessert is milk or dark chocolate.
> 
> ...


----------



## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> Tired. A brief story about my marriage. Many years ago I came to a board much like this one. He wants, but I feel... I think... But marriage is.... Sex was part of it even.
> 
> I got my head handed to me because unlike this one, it was an un-moderated board. (I get it if you are feeling attacked.) BUT I did finally get it. It was All About Me. I was not caring for HIM, who he was, what he wanted, what he needed.
> 
> I fixed that. Celebrated 20 deliriously happy years this year.


Congratulations! How did you make that kind of change? For me it looks so daunting. How did you get through it?


----------



## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

thetiredmommy said:


> Congratulations! How did you make that kind of change? For me it looks so daunting. How did you get through it?


Believing in and trusting the love you feel for your husband.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

thetiredmommy said:


> Congratulations! How did you make that kind of change? For me it looks so daunting. How did you get through it?


I did not chose to get "through" it. I chose to DO it. I come from a different place than you, no doubt. My bouts of depression and anxiety and situational. And they usually are conquered when I pull up my big girl panties and get 'er done.

But I think the thing that did it for me was realizing that there is no "marriage". Just the people in it. This will ruffle some feathers. But what it comes down to is, what is the use of my needing to control the way things work? To control what constitutes a marriage? If I don't have him, there is no marriage. And in the end, the real thing that did it for me was that I love this man. Loving this man requires that I be strong. Figure my own **** out. And when I do that, and it has not been a walk in the park since that early epiphany, I get to keep loving this man. And he keeps loving me. Every day. And I cannot even tell you what today was like.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> Believing in and trusting the love you feel for your husband.


Crap. It took me three paragraphs to say that. How not fair is that?


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## IcePrincess28 (Aug 4, 2014)

Tired mommy - it's nice to hear that at least you give all the income of your part time job to the family pot. I was expecting to hear the opposite. I'm glad I was wrong. 

At any rate. Next year when your daughter is in school. Your husband is undoubtedly going to be expecting change. 

You're going to be able to rest while she is at school. With your three hour work evenings during the weekday and 3-5 workouts a week. In addition to your personal time out with your girlfriends- your will be apart from your daughter for most of the day. 

Are you going to be more likely to do some things that make your husband happy when school starts? 

How is your husband doing these days. What have your most recent lovers' quarrels been regarding? 

Just curious- have you told him about your going on a forum to anonymously ask for advice. I'm asking bc I think he would be very pleased to see that you're making an effort.


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## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

IcePrincess28 said:


> Tired mommy - it's nice to hear that at least you give all the income of your part time job to the family pot. I was expecting to hear the opposite. I'm glad I was wrong.
> 
> At any rate. Next year when your daughter is in school. Your husband is undoubtedly going to be expecting change.
> 
> ...


See, I'm not all bad.  

That is true, I suppose. Maybe, it will be good for me when she is in school more. 

I think I will be able to do more things. I guess I can make more time for our sex life instead of squeezing it in after TV. Bachelor in Paradise is over now, so maybe tonight I'll say yes if he initiates. I have a little cold, but I can take some cold medicine, right? 

Our last quarrel was about parenting. Our little girl was having a tantrum and he put her in timeout when I was trying to talk it out with her. I was upset that he undermined me. He said that he didn't mean to do that, but noticed that our girl and I were just cycling and that he needed to step in because we were both getting more frustrated. I guess he was right because she did calm down afterward. 

I have not told him and I don't know if I will. I know most of you already knew this, but I joined the forum for validation after being frustrated with him. I don't think I'm ready to talk to him about this after getting such a big serving of humble pie. :-/


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Read "1,2,3 Magic" - your husband was absolutely right about time out.


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## Vivid (Aug 28, 2014)

For a marriage to be good, both spouses need to put the other first. Both spouses need to think of the other's happiness first. 

It sounds like your husband thinks of you first and you think of you first. He's going to get sick of that. He sounds like a good guy, so he'll probably stick around until your daughter is 18 and then leave. 

My husband works really hard for us. He is delighted that I don't have to work. There is not one speck of resentment. He is an amazing father. He will support me in anything I want to do. He is 100% loyal and honourable and trustworthy. He loves me and worries about me and makes sure I have everything I need and most of what I want.

I am unbelievably lucky. Here's what I do in return:
- all housework
- all food stuff, including making him breakfast and lunch
- all laundry
- all kid stuff, except the things he wants to do
- I never ever reject him sexually. The answer is always yes
- I will do anything he wants sexually, barring 3rd parties not that he's interested in those
- I make it clear how much I adore him. I buy him treats whenever I'm out. I praise him and thank him and tell other people good things about him. 
-I try to make sure he gets some time to himself. He exercises most days, he sleeps later than I do and I make sure he gets a nap when he needs one

And I do those things joyfully. And I'm a feminist, raised by a feminist. But thankfully raised by a feminist with a very happy marriage.

We have been together more than 20 years. I am confident we will always be together and happy to be so.


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## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

WandaJ said:


> Read "1,2,3 Magic" - your husband was absolutely right about time out.


I agree. I just got caught up in the moment.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

thetiredmommy said:


> Our last quarrel was about parenting. Our little girl was having a tantrum and he put her in timeout when I was trying to talk it out with her. I was upset that he undermined me. He said that he didn't mean to do that, but noticed that our girl and I were just cycling and that he needed to step in because we were both getting more frustrated. I guess he was right because she did calm down afterward.


From my experience, you cannot talk a child out of a tantrum. The major reason for throwing a tantrum is that the child wants to get their way and they want attention. So if you talk to the child during the tantrum, or pay any attention at all, you are feeding the tantrum.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Tired,

It is a great sign that you enjoy affection with your H so much. 

So, I have an exercise I'd like to suggest you do. This is a 10 minute activity that might be useful to you. 

1. Make a list of all the sexual stuff you two do that feels good to you. 
2. And a separate list of the stuff you don't like so much, but are ok with.
3. And a third list of the stuff that you simply dislike and don't want to do. 
4. This next list is different, this is the list of reasons why you try to rush the process / get it over with as fast as you can. Now, these are your lists, for you. I'll suggest later how you might use them with your H. But the one item you cannot put on this list, is that you rush things because you are tired. Because that is the opposite of what is happening. You actually wait until you are tired in order to have a built in excuse to hurry things up. So, put the real reasons here. 

Having this stuff in front of you, will help create the outline of a discussion with your H. But that comes later, after you have an honest picture of what's driving this 'hurry up' stuff.

I want you to also consider doing an experiment. It's simple, and might be very helpful. Drink 2 glasses of wine about a half hour before you get in bed to have sex. The idea is NOT to be drunk. But rather to use that method to quiet that background hum of worries about tomorrow that is likely reducing your enjoyment of sex with H. 

--------
I hope you realize that for now, I am focused solely on one goal: helping you create and execute a plan that results in you looking forward to sex with your H. 

For a long time you have been merely tolerating it. And that's why you have limited both frequency and duration. 

I'm not being critical. I'm simply saying what's true. And I'm realistic enough to say you might never be a nymphomaniac. And that's ok also. Your H doesn't need you to be. 

But he does need to feel more than - tolerated. 





thetiredmommy said:


> See, I'm not all bad.
> 
> That is true, I suppose. Maybe, it will be good for me when she is in school more.
> 
> ...


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## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Tired,
> 
> It is a great sign that you enjoy affection with your H so much.
> 
> ...


Ok, I'll make time today to do that activity. I don't know about the wine. I shouldn't drink with my anti-anxiety medication. I DO hope to get off the anti-anxiety meds eventually and have a glass of wine every once in a while.  

Sometimes I wonder if he is a nymphomaniac (kidding). But like I said, he could have sex daily. He would probably love it if I could, too.


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## TheCuriousWife (Jan 28, 2013)

thetiredmommy said:


> Ok, I'll make time today to do that activity. I don't know about the wine. I shouldn't drink with my anti-anxiety medication. I DO hope to get off the anti-anxiety meds eventually and have a glass of wine every once in a while.
> 
> Sometimes I wonder if he is a nymphomaniac (kidding). But like I said, he could have sex daily. He would probably love it if I could, too.


Your husband is not a sex maniac for wanting sex more than once every other month.

You have to get out of this mindset that he is the one with the problems, or that your way is the right way, and all his thoughts and needs are just crazy. He is a normal guy, wanting normal things. 

I'm having the exact opposite problem as you. I'm in your husband's shoes. And let me tell you, it is no fun to have your needs not taken seriously, or viewed as not as important. I also resent the fact that he thinks I'm a sex maniac.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening TheTiredMommy
Wanting sex every day with the person you love is normal and desirable.

A nymphomaniac is someone who wants sex all the time with people that they DON'T LOVE. It is someone who has sex and the regrets it. Someone who can't resist their urges to have sex. 

Frequent passionate sex is part of a normal loving relationship, and part of romance. Take your favorite romantic story and remove the sexual attraction; make both characters straight males, and see how flat and dead it becomes. Jane Austin stories become a series of business negotiations....Oh wait, that's what they are anyway


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## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

TheCuriousWife said:


> Your husband is not a sex maniac for wanting sex more than once every other month.
> 
> You have to get out of this mindset that he is the one with the problems, or that your way is the right way, and all his thoughts and needs are just crazy. He is a normal guy, wanting normal things.
> 
> I'm having the exact opposite problem as you. I'm in your husband's shoes. And let me tell you, it is no fun to have your needs not taken seriously, or viewed as not as important. I also resent the fact that he thinks I'm a sex maniac.


I'm sorry, Curious. I didn't mean to offend you and I'm sorry that your having troubles with your husband. I know my H isn't a sex maniac. Maybe it's how I deflect the guilt. He initiated the past couple nights and I had to call a raincheck because my stomach is upset and I feel achy because I'm going to start my period. He acted calm about it, but I'm guessing that he was frustrated. I gave him a hug and told him that I love him and that it wasn't about him. But I still feel guilty. :-/


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## U.E. McGill (Nov 27, 2013)

thetiredmommy said:


> I'm sorry, Curious. I didn't mean to offend you and I'm sorry that your having troubles with your husband. I know my H isn't a sex maniac. Maybe it's how I deflect the guilt. He initiated the past couple nights and I had to call a raincheck because my stomach is upset and I feel achy because I'm going to start my period. He acted calm about it, but I'm guessing that he was frustrated. I gave him a hug and told him that I love him and that it wasn't about him. But I still feel guilty. :-/



Would you be opposed to a hand job? It says "hey I know you have needs, so here's a selfless way for me to help".


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## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

U.E. McGill said:


> Would you be opposed to a hand job? It says "hey I know you have needs, so here's a selfless way for me to help".


I don't know how I feel about that, though. I know you have a point, but something tells me it's kinda selfish on his part. I know that's probably my own baggage thought. That and it just doesn't seem fun...


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## TheCuriousWife (Jan 28, 2013)

thetiredmommy said:


> I'm sorry, Curious. I didn't mean to offend you and I'm sorry that your having troubles with your husband. I know my H isn't a sex maniac. Maybe it's how I deflect the guilt. He initiated the past couple nights and I had to call a raincheck because my stomach is upset and I feel achy because I'm going to start my period. He acted calm about it, but I'm guessing that he was frustrated. I gave him a hug and told him that I love him and that it wasn't about him. But I still feel guilty. :-/


I'm not upset or offended. 

I just want you to realize this is YOUR problem, not his. You need to own it.

It seems he has tried nearly anything and everything he can think of. It is time for you to step up and make improvements if you want your marriage to last.

PS: Sex and orgasms actually relieve achiness and upset stomachs. Try it.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

thetiredmommy said:


> I'm sorry, Curious. I didn't mean to offend you and I'm sorry that your having troubles with your husband. I know my H isn't a sex maniac. Maybe it's how I deflect the guilt. He initiated the past couple nights and I had to call a raincheck because my stomach is upset and I feel achy because I'm going to start my period. He acted calm about it, but I'm guessing that he was frustrated. I gave him a hug and told him that I love him and that it wasn't about him. But I still feel guilty. :-/


So even after starting your threads what, a week ago, and after getting however many pages of comments about the damage you're potentially doing to your relationship, he initiates the last couple of nights (probably knowing that if he doesn't get something now, it's not going to happen for another week or more), and you send him off with rain checks, a hug, and kind words about it not being about him?

Please understand this. While there's no excuse for cheating, you're putting him in a very nasty situation where he has to decide about how to get his intimacy needs met. He can continue to play your game and allow resentments and frustrations to fester. He can separate/divorce you, which will cost him a ton of money and rip his family apart. He can cheat, and try to keep his family together while still getting his needs met. Or he can man up and try to force change from within, but he likely doesn't see this as possible, because it sounds like he's tried a bunch of things without success. NONE of those options are good!

Just as an FYI... These things may not happen in the immediate future. But the resentments will be festering. And odds are decent that some sweet young thing makes it obvious that she'd be willing to do things for him that you're not, and she doesn't care about that ring on his finger. 

Give the poor guy a hand job or something in the shower, for crying out loud. It costs you nothing. Everything gets washed off as it happens. And you can't use your excuse of an "upset tummy" or "period's going to start sometime this month"...

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

thetiredmommy said:


> I'm sorry, Curious. I didn't mean to offend you and I'm sorry that your having troubles with your husband. I know my H isn't a sex maniac. Maybe it's how I deflect the guilt. He initiated the past couple nights and I had to call a raincheck because my stomach is upset and I feel achy because I'm going to start my period. He acted calm about it, but I'm guessing that he was frustrated. I gave him a hug and told him that I love him and that it wasn't about him. But I still feel guilty. :-/


You should feel guilty.


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## TheCuriousWife (Jan 28, 2013)

thetiredmommy said:


> I don't know how I feel about that, though. I know you have a point, but something tells me it's kinda selfish on his part. I know that's probably my own baggage thought. That and it just doesn't seem fun...


No it is selfish on your part to turn him down all the time.

Also, not everything you do has to be fun for you. Sometimes you do things out of love. I'm sure when he helps you around the house it isn't fun for him. But he still does it because he loves you.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

thetiredmommy said:


> I don't know how I feel about that, though. I know you have a point, but something tells me it's kinda selfish on his part. I know that's probably my own baggage thought. That and it just doesn't seem fun...


Does he ever rub your feet?

The footrub is to a woman what the handjob is to a man. I might even add that a penis is actually less disgusting than a pair of nasty ol' feet.

Why are you so compulsively adamant about not doing something just for your husband's benefit?


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

thetiredmommy said:


> I don't know how I feel about that, though. I know you have a point, but something tells me it's kinda selfish on his part. I know that's probably my own baggage thought. That and it just doesn't seem fun...


How is it "selfish" of him to accept something that you freely offer? Is it selfish of you to accept a massage from him when you have an achy back from your period?

I also find it interesting that to comment about him being a nymphomanic, but append a "just kidding". This after posting about finding out that he watched porn and post in the "addictions" forum, yet never mention how often he does this. You really really want to lay this all out on him. "Just kiddings" don't cut it. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

thetiredmommy said:


> I don't know how I feel about that, though. I know you have a point, but something tells me it's kinda selfish on his part. I know that's probably my own baggage thought. That and it just doesn't seem fun...


Selflessness on one persons part does not mean selfishness on another's.

Do you truly know what selflessness is, or do you typically wonder what's in it for you and act upon that answer?


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## TheCuriousWife (Jan 28, 2013)

The root of this entire issue is that you need to stop thinking of only yourself, and put your husband first. Despite what you've been taught, you and your child aren't the center of the universe. Your husband is equally as important.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

PBear said:


> Just as an FYI... These things may not happen in the immediate future. But the resentments will be festering. And odds are decent that some sweet young thing makes it obvious that she'd be willing to do things for him that you're not, and she doesn't care about that ring on his finger.


If this guy's as good as OP says he is, someone is going to figure it out and paint a big ol' target on his back and try to make him hers.


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## skype (Sep 25, 2013)

thetiredmommy said:


> I don't know how I feel about that, though. I know you have a point, but something tells me it's kinda selfish on his part. I know that's probably my own baggage thought. That and it just doesn't seem fun...


Selfish to get his needs met? Are you selfish when you want emotional and financial support from him? We all get married to get our needs met. 

If an HJ doesn't seem "fun," then you need to change your definition of "fun." It is a bonding experience with your husband. You have the great privilege as a wife to please your husband in the deepest, most intimate way possible. Don't you want to see that look of ecstasy on his face, and know that you put it there?


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## TheCuriousWife (Jan 28, 2013)

PBear said:


> I also find it interesting that to comment about him being a nymphomanic, but append a "just kidding". This after posting about finding out that he watched porn and post in the "addictions" forum, yet never mention how often he does this. You really really want to lay this all out on him. "Just kiddings" don't cut it.
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree:

Saying just kidding is actually you telling what you really think, but not wanting to come off as mean or rude. There is truth in all "jokes." 

You keep wanting to somehow twist it around to where it's all your husbands fault, or it's his problem. But it's not. I'd go as far to say it's probably 99% all you. 

The first step in improving is admitting there is a problem and you need help. Your getting there, but not quite on board yet. You're still conflicted.

I know it's a shock, because it's not what you're used to, or how you were taught. But in order to move past this, you are going to have to accept it.

Please don't take this personally. But I really fear for you and your marriage if things don't change.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

TheCuriousWife said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Saying just kidding is actually you telling what you really think, but not wanting to come off as mean or rude. There is truth in all "jokes."
> 
> ...


This may be the root of the problem right here...she doesn't take anything personally when that's exactly what she needs to do.


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## notperfectanymore (Mar 1, 2012)

Ok, how would you feel if your husband NEVER cuddled with you, kissed you, rubbed your back, never did ANYTHING for you? That is exactly how you are making your husband feel....he needs to feel appreciated and loved, and by doing a BJ or HJ since you aren't feeling well enough for sex, that would show him you really love him and appreciate all he does for you. 

Can you please answer WHY you have all these sexual hang ups? Does it come from your mother? Did you have girlfriends growing up that you talked about this with? 

I am afraid you are going to end up single or a betrayed spouse at he rate you are going....

You mentioned PTSD in one of your prior posts...do you mind telling us what is was? Was it sexual by chance? I understand if you aren't comfortable telling us, but we are trying to help you save what could be the end of your marriage...


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## IcePrincess28 (Aug 4, 2014)

thetiredmommy said:


> I don't know how I feel about that, though. I know you have a point, but something tells me *it's kinda selfish on his part*. I know that's probably my own baggage thought. That *and it just doesn't seem fun...*


But here are some things that are one sided and selfish for you to do- which has been repeated many times- I'm not sure why you don't see that-:

to have him raise your daughter during the weekday nights and weekends. 
to have him watch your daughter while you work out up to 5x a week
to have him watch your daughter while you sleep in on the weekends, and nap during the afternoons
to have him watch your daughter during his workouts
to not let him have a social life, yet he insists you go out yourself
to make him watch all your shows
to keep him up on work nights until almost midnight with your shows,
to make him get up during the weekends, on which you kept him up the night before with your shows,
all during which, you make him get up in the middle of the night when she has nightmares
all during which, you call him at work, when she has tantrums- so see if he can come home
to do the physical affections you want- cuddling, receiving foot massages- and massages- all while turning him down for everything. 

None of those things sound very fun- when they seemingly are done in an endless cycle, in a thankless job- type of way. By thankless- I don't mean that you don't say "thank you" with words- but rather do you thank him by _reciprocating_ with your actions. 

This is more or less the same conversation. I have a feeling, that if this thread went up to 500plus posts- it would still be the same thing. You not seeing the error of your ways. I wish you the best. 

And remember- I'd say next school year is a big one- for your marriage. Its going to show your husband just how useful- or useless your participation is- in your household. 

Take care- 

This is my farewell to this thread. I'll keep myself subscribed- however- with the hopes of reading your progress- tired mommy.


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## greenfern (Oct 20, 2012)

thetiredmommy said:


> I don't know how I feel about that, though. I know you have a point, but something tells me it's kinda selfish on his part. I know that's probably my own baggage thought. That and it just doesn't seem fun...


Everyone else has already noted this but add my vote...this is NOT selfish on his part.

Please please, read the sex in marriage threads by some of the (mostly men, but some women) who are in marriages where they are rejected. It is so painful for them you can't even imagine. A hug, a raincheck, its just salt in the wound. It will open your mind to what you are doing to him and how amazingly unselfish he is being by not resenting you more for not meeting your obligations in marriage.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Tiredmommy-- 

If this whole scenario is not a flame (big if), it is so far gone that actually your husband deserves a lot of the blame at this point.

He has allowed his situation to degenerate to a degree that it is "scary" for his wife to consider that he has actual basic human needs.

My guess is that if he could find it in himself to challenge you on any of these things you have brought up you would be secretly relieved.

I would ask you to really consider this point: 

You think everything would be OK if he would just subordinate himself a little more. But every time he does this, don't you really lose a bit more respect for him?

When you think of your ideal man-- the kind that would really turn you on-- do you think of a man who is constantly asking for permission, constantly putting himself last?

Or do you really like the man who knows what he wants, knows what is right and goes out and gets it?

Now consider that by raising these various issues with you, your husband is trying to be that man. 

Yes, he is stumbling badly, but in his own way he is trying to stand up.

Give him the room to stand up and be the kind of man you really want.


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## U.E. McGill (Nov 27, 2013)

thetiredmommy said:


> I don't know how I feel about that, though. I know you have a point, but something tells me it's kinda selfish on his part. I know that's probably my own baggage thought. That and it just doesn't seem fun...



Yep. 100% selfish. I'll ask my wife to do this for me and she obliges. As a married couple she's the only person that can in our relationship. 

I'll tell you what I told my wife. It's not about you, it's about him. You are the focus of his sexual desire. Men feel love through intimacy. By denying even a simple act of a HJ because "it's kind of selfish and not fun" you're reinforcing that you don't want intimacy on his part. 

The act itself may be selfish, but the message you send is "love"


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

IcePrincess made a great synopsis. If the OP cannot read this and reflect on this honestly to see that she's put WAY to much onto her husband and WAY too little responsibility on herself, then she has some real problems to deal with. 

If she does not make changes - QUICK - then it will be WHEN her husband leaves her and not if. 

OP, no offense, but you are pretty lazy. Your life is going to be turned on its head if you don't find a work ethic.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

thetiredmommy said:


> I don't know how I feel about that, though. I know you have a point, but something tells me it's kinda selfish on his part. I know that's probably my own baggage thought. That and it just doesn't seem fun...


How is you giving him a gift selfish on his part? He's not asking for it. If you offer it, he's not being selfish.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

How to say this without breaking any rules? In retrospect, I am glad that that I addressed my issues in an unmoderated forum. After the initial denial was erased, I had to really look at myself and say, really? That is me? And it was.


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## TheCuriousWife (Jan 28, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> This may be the root of the problem right here...she doesn't take anything personally when that's exactly what she needs to do.


True. I retract my statement.

A better choice of words would be:

I'm sorry, if this hurts, but it's the truth. I'm not trying to be mean or put you down. I just want you to realize how damaging your thinking is.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> Tiredmommy--
> 
> If this whole scenario is not a flame (big if), it is so far gone that actually your husband deserves a lot of the blame at this point.
> 
> ...


No doubt that if he were posting here, many people would be referring him to NMMNG. That said, one person can change the dynamic in a positive way.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> How is you giving him a gift selfish on his part? He's not asking for it. If you offer it, he's not being selfish.


There are some people who if they don't see the immediate personal gain and gratification view the other person as selfish. It's a type of projection and zero sum game. My EX wife is one such person.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

thetiredmommy said:


> I don't know how I feel about that, though. I know you have a point, but something tells me it's kinda selfish on his part. I know that's probably my own baggage thought. That and it just doesn't seem fun...


IDK, is it selfish of me to want my husband to scratch my back? Maybe so but I still enjoy it. 

Honey, you've got to experience the pleasure of giving your H a nice long hand job, complete with teasing. To see the contentment on his face when you finally let him orgasm, the peaceful expression knowing you put that there.... It really is a lovely experience!


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

samyeagar said:


> There are some people who if they don't see the immediate personal gain and gratification view the other person as selfish. It's a type of projection and zero sum game. My EX wife is one such person.


It makes me wonder if she feels he is being selfish when she gives him a gift for Christmas or his birthday. And the worst part is when he does something nice for her, she doesn't see herself as being selfish in the same way. It's tragically hypocritical.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> IDK, is it selfish of me to want my husband to scratch my back? Maybe so but I still enjoy it.
> 
> Honey, you've got to experience the pleasure of giving your H a nice long hand job, complete with teasing. To see the contentment on his face when you finally let him orgasm, the peaceful expression knowing you put that there.... *It really is a lovely experience*!


Except for all the skin, urine, feces, and semen...maybe if she pretended it was her remote control for the tv?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> Except for all the skin, urine, feces, and semen...maybe if she pretended it was her remote control for the tv?


I am sorry. Why would a man have feces on his penis!


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> Except for all the skin, urine, feces, and semen...maybe if she pretended it was her remote control for the tv?


Well she can ways insist he shower first. 

Remote control!!!! Do you have any idea the germs on that?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> IDK, is it selfish of me to want my husband to scratch my back? Maybe so but I still enjoy it.
> 
> Honey, you've got to experience the pleasure of giving your H a nice long hand job, complete with teasing. To see the contentment on his face when you finally let him orgasm, the peaceful expression knowing you put that there.... It really is a lovely experience!


Won't happen.

Some people just aren't wired this way. I know at least one personally.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> I am sorry. Why would a man have feces on his penis!


Not sure, but that was one of her concerns.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> I am sorry. Why would a man have feces on his penis!


Should I draw you a picture?


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> Well she can ways insist he shower first.
> 
> Remote control!!!! Do you have any idea the germs on that?


He has, and it doesn't make any difference to her...and yeah germs on the remote...funny how much tv she can watch using it...


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Should I draw you a picture?


I was being a bit silly. On purpose. Most people keep clean. I am doubting her DH is any different.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

NobodySpecial said:


> I was being a bit silly. On purpose. Most people keep clean. I am doubting her DH is any different.


You seem to be assuming her fears are rational...

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

thetiredmommy said:


> Do you think he feels the same way? Even if I told him that it's not about me not loving him?





thetiredmommy said:


> He initiated the past couple nights and I had to call a raincheck because my stomach is upset and I feel achy because I'm going to start my period. He acted calm about it, but I'm guessing that he was frustrated. I gave him a hug and told him that I love him and that it wasn't about him. But I still feel guilty. :-/



Imagine you lived in a strange alternate universe where you depended solely on your spouse to eat. 

Sure there are diners out there but going to one if you’re married is a carnal sin under religion and against social mores regardless of one’s religion or lack thereof. To do so goes against your own morals and would hurt your spouse – maybe even beyond repair. There are vending machines. Going to one may or may not be okay but there’s never anything in there that’s very nutritious, you might not be as hungry after eating from one but you’ll never feel full and a complete diet of those chocolate bars and sodas may eventually kill you.

Now imagine it’s been a few hours, a day or two, perhaps even a week since you’ve last eaten. Before you do this, I really want you to put yourself there. A hunger pang is something everyone of us has experienced. We’ve all gone a little too long between meals and experienced hunger pain where it felt like there was nothing in you but air and your insides were chewing on themselves, stomach growling, maybe even a little light-headed, irritable, dizzy, weak and fatigued because of it. Think about the last time you were really hungry like that in real life.

Did you imagine that hunger? Good. So going back to our alternate universe where only your spouse could fill the need of nourishing your body and staving off those nasty hunger pangs. Imagine going to them and telling them that you’re hungry and you need to eat.

Now imagine that there response is something like, _“Honey, I’m just too tired or not in the mood to feed you right now. But since I care about you sooo much, I just want you to feel full anyway.  So try to feel full today and maybe we’ll try to eat again tomorrow okay?” _ 


*Now how satisfied...how full do you think you’d be? 

How loved and cared for would you feel to know that your spouse knows you're hungry but doesn't care to feed you even though they're the only person who could?*

***************

In case you missed it, your need to eat is an analogy for your husband’s need to have sex with you. The diners are cheating or divorce and meeting another woman. This would be wrong. The vending machines are porn and masturbation. This might be okay, depending on what you’ve negotiated in your marriage. (A prior post of yours indicated you were not okay with it). Still, if he did go to vending machines, perhaps it would be only once in a while to quench his hunger...that wouldn’t be so bad. But eventually it could lead to him doing it all the time and instead of asking for nourishment from his wife, getting a snack from the machine each and every time that hunger panged. Eventually the death wouldn’t be to him but of complete death of sexual feelings, lust, romanticism for his wife. 

This is why words do not matter. They’re nice to hear but only actions will satisfy the needs. 

Sexual intimacy in marriage goes so much beyond: penis goes into vagina, this feels good until orgasm happens and then it’s over. If the above were truly all you needed to have a happy sex life then suggesting he go and masturbate would be an adequate solution for his sexual urges. 

However it’s so much more than that. It’s an opportunity to make your husband feel truly accepted by you as a man – as _your _man. Having sex with him, giving to him without reciprocation (the suggestion of a hand-job when you felt too crampy for instance). It is not about subjugation, submission, subservience. In fact, it's quite the opposite. You have so much power in your own femininity, seduction, sexuality...in a good way to make him feel loved, empowered, desired, and fulfilled in this marriage to you by you. So much power to add and or detract from this marriage and either add to or take away the happiness in the marriage and guarantee it's success and longevity and set a good example for your own daughter about what love really is. I can almost guarantee that what you give will come back to you ten-fold. Most men do have a desire to please their wives and many will give back your love with interest if you make a little effort towards their happiness.

Like I said, sex is so much more than a series of motions that lead to orgasm. You have the opportunity to make him feel loved, desired, wanted, appreciated. To bond – romantics aside, the bonding that occurs on a neurological level because of the hormones and chemicals (dopamine, seratonin and oxytocin) released during sex is something you can’t duplicate with your “I love you’s. Please don’t feel like this means I don’t love you or find you attractive. (even though my rejection sends the opposite message.)” Anymore than if in my alternate universe, you telling him to feel full because you care would satisfy the hunger. I assure you it also doesn't happen in him because you scrubbed the toilet that day or two/three years ago nursed your daughter. No....those chemicals happen during sex by and large at their biggest amounts.

...So everytime you ask him for a raincheck, you are asking for a raincheck, not for sex but for an opportunity to bond and demonstrate your love to him, and his importance to you in one of the most meaningful ways you could ever express that as his wife. The words simply will not do.


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## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

I'm really thinking that I need more time to digest all of this. I'm going to take some time off from posting while I try to reflect and figure this out. Thank you all for your help and feedback. And I apologize to those who I might have offended and made upset. I know I probably remind you of your own spouses.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

I wish you all well, I really really do. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## I Don't Know (Oct 8, 2013)

There's always a reason you won't just have sex with your husband. Achy tummy my a$$. You didn't want to so you didn't. Just admit it. There's always a reason for you to do nothing. You say MAYBE when your daughter starts school you'll fell more like trying? NO, you won't. You will find yet another reason to continue doing nothing. 

You say it's selfish for your husband to receive a HJ. You do realize it's ok for him to be selfish once in a while. Look at all the ways he is NOT selfish! And you are indignant at the idea that he might actually enjoy you pleasing him sexually. 

From the way you've portrayed your day to day, your life ain't that hard sweetie. You shouldn't be so tired that you can't cook your husband dinner most nights.

I don't expect you to change. I haven't even seen where you admitted you need to change. I've seen you say, "I guess I could try" and "it sounds so scary" and "what's in it for me." "What's in it for me" should be the absolute last thought in your head when thinking about doing something for someone you love. If that's honestly one of the first thoughts you have when someone mentions something nice you could do, I don't think anyone will ever get through to you.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

thetiredmommy said:


> I'm really thinking that I need more time to digest all of this. I'm going to take some time off from posting while I try to reflect and figure this out. Thank you all for your help and feedback. And I apologize to those who I might have offended and made upset. *I know I probably remind you of your own spouses*.


And ex spouses...

I know it's been pretty brutal for you here, but at least it's given you something to think about. It's difficult to find out that what you thought you knew, what you were told by people you placed your trust in, what you believed in turns out not to agree with reality.

You have a very important choice right now that has nothing to do with this board...

You can hold to your old way of thinking, old stereotypes, and do nothing, or you can open your eyes and accept what is right in front of your face and act accordingly. The choice is yours, but one way will have a much happier outcome for you than the other...of that I am certain. Good luck.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening thetiredmommy
Some other woman will seduce him and in a moment of weakness and desperation he will give in. Many people cheat and then feel guilty afterwards. He will realize what he has been missing his entire life and you will lose him. You will blame him, your friends may blame him, but he will feel no guilt as he spends time with someone who loves him. 

Once it happens, it will be too late for you to ever fix things. 

Its like watching a train wreck.


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## IcePrincess28 (Aug 4, 2014)

Just wanted to post this- regarding a woman (member on TAM) who is in your husband's shoes- and how she feels about it. 



ella1048 said:


> ...
> (and I was thinking: did he mean too old to father a child? Or not having "enough energy"?)...most likely the ENERGY...
> 
> plus...*weekends he'd really rather be on the (tennis) courts for 2-3 hours *than helping me with our son.
> ...





Openminded said:


> I think he decided to have a child that late in life without realizing the full impact of it. Your life totally changes. So to have gone 50 years doing whatever you want whenever you want and then have a child to consider -- well, I'm not surprised he doesn't want another one. *I assume he expected you to have the entire responsibility of a child while his life didn't change much.* But that's not how it works these days.





ella1048 said:


> Uh...yeah??
> 
> *Plus I have a full time JOB*!!!!!


This is about a woman who has a full time job- who takes care of her son, from the moment she is home, to when she hits the sack. Husband will not let her use a sitter (relatives and un-related, both)- and wants her to take son with her when she works out. She had to beg him to watch their 3 year old son for an hour, so she could do a 3.1 mile run. 

The only difference between her husband and you- her husband works full-time.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

thetiredmommy said:


> I'm really thinking that I need more time to digest all of this. I'm going to take some time off from posting while I try to reflect and figure this out. Thank you all for your help and feedback. And I apologize to those who I might have offended and made upset. I know I probably remind you of your own spouses.


I don't think many would tolerate having a spouse who treats them the way you treat your husband. I hope you seriously consider getting some help for both your sake


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

IcePrincess28 said:


> Just wanted to post this- regarding a woman (member on TAM) who is in your husband's shoes- and how she feels about it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I would highly suggest that you read all of Ella's posts. She is doing the drama dance as much as her husband.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

On the off chance this isn't some big, elaborate ruse, TiredMommy you really need to read this:

What does the common practice of withholding sex reveal about women? | Wintery Knight


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## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

jaquen said:


> On the off chance this isn't some big, elaborate ruse, TiredMommy you really need to read this:
> 
> What does the common practice of withholding sex reveal about women? | Wintery Knight


I read it, but I don't like that it has such a negative spin on feminism. Anyways, what's wrong with a person's right to say that they do not want sex at that moment? The idea that a woman should just deal with it and have sex is very coercive, don't you think?


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## IcePrincess28 (Aug 4, 2014)

TiredMommy- up until this last post. I was hoping your passive responses, especially against the attacks of some not so nice posters- as well as how open and honest you were with your and your husband's roles- were just that of a very nice woman who was naive to her shortcomings. 

But I'm starting to think you're on here to do research for a paper on women and gender role studies for school. And not as one who is actually speaking of true experience. A college student. Not a mother and a wife. 

I hope I am wrong. But for someone who seems so naive. You sure have a really good grasp on your definition of feminism that your "mother" taught you.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

thetiredmommy said:


> I read it, but I don't like that it has such a negative spin on feminism. Anyways, what's wrong with a person's right to say that they do not want sex at that moment? The idea that a woman should just deal with it and have sex is very coercive, don't you think?


You are missing the point. It is not coercive because it is willingly given. It is a gift.

People who love each other (and are worth loving) give to one another.


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

Everyone has that right, absolutely.

But what makes you feel loved? For example, you love cuddling and watching TV with your husband, you feel loved when he does that.

It's his right to not want to do that as well. If he didn't do that with you, you might not feel quite as attached to him. You'd probably still like him on a level, you'd appreciate his hard work but you might not feel like taking that extra step in showing your appreciation only because he isn't really meeting your need for affection. 

If you asked him for more cuddles it wouldn't be coercion, it would be asking him to meet a need of yours so you can escalate your loving feelings toward him. If he couldn't meet your need for whatever reason (regardless of the legitimacy) you'd have to make a choice on how you are going to deal with the emptiness you feel without them. 

Your choice in response to his actions can be ugly (cuddling with someone else) un-fulfilling (watching movies where people really love to cuddle) or make do without and shut a part of yourself off--which is painful and hard to do. Or you could decide that cuddling is more important than a portion of your house and income and leave to find someone who will cuddle without question.

You totally have a choice and have a right to exercise that choice--but all choices have consequences.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

thetiredmommy said:


> I read it, but I don't like that it has such a negative spin on feminism. Anyways, what's wrong with a person's right to say that they do not want sex at that moment? The idea that a woman should just deal with it and have sex is very coercive, don't you think?


Did you even read the link? Your comment suggests not.

And what do you mean "at that moment"? According to the tale you're spinning you've had a nearly sexless marriage. Your level of withholding goes far beyond "at that moment", again according to your story.

But alas, my suspicions prove valid with each passing post. More holes are showing...


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

On the plus side... When you're single again you can not have sex as much as you like... No pressure at all. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

IcePrincess28 said:


> TiredMommy- up until this last post. I was hoping your passive responses, especially against the attacks of some not so nice posters- as well as how open and honest you were with your and your husband's roles- were just that of a very nice woman who was naive to her shortcomings.
> 
> But I'm starting to think you're on here to do research for a paper on women and gender role studies for school. And not as one who is actually speaking of true experience. A college student. Not a mother and a wife.
> 
> I hope I am wrong. But for someone who seems so naive. You sure have a really good grasp on your definition of feminism that your "mother" taught you.



No, I'm not writing a paper. I've been done with that stuff for a while now thankfully.  I did, however, take a sex/gender class when I was an undergraduate. That's where I have a hard time with the article. I kept reading "feminists think this" or "the whole problem with feminist women" that felt really attacking. And really, Dr. Laura?? It just feels demeaning. Maybe, I'm wrong about this, but it just gave me such a strong emotional reaction.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

thetiredmommy said:


> No, I'm not writing a paper. I've been done with that stuff for a while now thankfully.  I did, however, take a sex/gender class when I was an undergraduate. That's where I have a hard time with the article. I kept reading "feminists think this" or "the whole problem with feminist women" that felt really attacking. And really, Dr. Laura?? It just feels demeaning. Maybe, I'm wrong about this, but it just gave me such a strong emotional reaction.


It would seem that you're more wedded to your ideal of feminism than you are to your loving husband. 

You want to be a good feminist? Burn you bra and bang your husband. If you'd rather just maintain an enormous power disadvantage in the guise of not ever feeling obligated or subservient, you're on the right track.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

thetiredmommy said:


> No, I'm not writing a paper. I've been done with that stuff for a while now thankfully.  I did, however, take a sex/gender class when I was an undergraduate. That's where I have a hard time with the article. I kept reading "feminists think this" or "the whole problem with feminist women" that felt really attacking. And really, Dr. Laura?? It just feels demeaning. Maybe, I'm wrong about this, but it just gave me such a strong emotional reaction.


Wait. You learned that loving your husband is somehow an anti feminism concept?

Bottom line is you don't want to have sex with your husband. You want him for all the stuff you want. But are not interested in loving him or caring for him back. Let him know that so that he can make an informed decision.


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## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> Wait. You learned that loving your husband is somehow an anti feminism concept?
> 
> Bottom line is you don't want to have sex with your husband. You want him for all the stuff you want. But are not interested in loving him or caring for him back. Let him know that so that he can make an informed decision.


Oh no, definitely not! I really LOVE my husband. It's just that if I can't have sex that day, there are other ways for me to love to him. It's just that I don't think he fully recognizes that or appreciates the hugs, the holding hands, me listening about his day as much.


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## Abc123wife (Sep 18, 2013)

thetiredmommy said:


> No, I'm not writing a paper. I've been done with that stuff for a while now thankfully.  I did, however, take a sex/gender class when I was an undergraduate. That's where I have a hard time with the article. I kept reading "feminists think this" or "the whole problem with feminist women" that felt really attacking. And really, Dr. Laura?? It just feels demeaning. Maybe, I'm wrong about this, but it just gave me such a strong emotional reaction.


Not sure why I keep coming back to this thread since I am thinking we are all wasting time responding to someone playing us with some circular logic puzzle. On the other hand, if this is real, we are wasting our time trying to help someone deadest against changing anything due to extreme narcissism. 

But despite my skepticism on this actually being a real situation... How in the world could thetiredmommy consider herself a feminist? She doesn't work much, she relies on a man to take care of her and her child's every need, she doesn't pull her weight with the household (too tired), and she has very dated ideas about sex and a loving relationship. Thetiredmommy is not a good example of a feminist by any measure!


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

thetiredmommy said:


> Oh no, definitely not! I really LOVE my husband. It's just that if I can't have sex that day,


Or ... like... ever.




> there are other ways for me to love to him. It's just that I don't think he fully recognizes that or appreciates the hugs, the holding hands, me listening about his day as much.


You don't get to choose what makes HIM feel loved. He does.


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

:iagree: and that was the jist of the article jaquen posted.

Sex makes your husband feel loved. You love your husband you either figure out a way to come to a good compromise to an amount of sex or you love him enough to say "hey, maybe I can't do this--it's not you, it's me."


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## I Don't Know (Oct 8, 2013)

thetiredmommy said:


> Oh no, definitely not! I really LOVE my husband. *It's just that if I can't have sex that day*, there are other ways for me to love to him. It's just that I don't think he fully recognizes that or appreciates the hugs, the holding hands, me listening about his day as much.


How many times have you had sex with your H since you started this thread? I would really like to know what days you _can have sex._

Seriously, what does "can't have sex that day" even mean? I think the phrase your looking for is "It's just that I don't want to have sex."

The more evidence you are given that this is going to destroy your marriage, the more you dig in and refuse to budge. It's not even having sex that is the problem at this point. It's the fact that anyone might possibly think you SHOULD have sex, or do ANYTHING AT ALL for your husbands benefit alone.


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## I Don't Know (Oct 8, 2013)

BTW. Hugs and holding hands are great until you realize they are full of empty promise. At that point it starts to feel fake. Like it's a show for other people so no one knows how miserable you are. I LOVE holding my wifes hand. I feel like my whole body is filled with pure love for her when we do. But, she keeps it that way by being a willing and engaged lover in bed. I would be surprised if your husband feels anything when he hugs you or holds your hand.


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

You'd rather suck on a condom than possibly have him leak froth? Wtf?

What condoms are you using that doesn't make you just gag at the smell of them? I can't imagine how any woman could give oral sex to a man with a condom on.


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## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

I Don't Know said:


> How many times have you had sex with your H since you started this thread? I would really like to know what days you _can have sex._
> 
> Seriously, what does "can't have sex that day" even mean? I think the phrase your looking for is "It's just that I don't want to have sex."
> 
> The more evidence you are given that this is going to destroy your marriage, the more you dig in and refuse to budge. It's not even having sex that is the problem at this point. It's the fact that anyone might possibly think you SHOULD have sex, or do ANYTHING AT ALL for your husbands benefit alone.


Well, we haven't had sex yet since starting this thread, but I did want to. I've just been having some health issues. I've had horrible PMS and cramping and then I caught a cold later in the week. I'm sure I'll be feeling MUCH better after I have my period. That's usually when I do feel in the mood for sex and I sometimes initiate it myself.


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## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

Coldie said:


> You'd rather suck on a condom than possibly have him leak froth? Wtf?
> 
> What condoms are you using that doesn't make you just gag at the smell of them? I can't imagine how any woman could give oral sex to a man with a condom on.


I would, actually. I know it's my cleanliness issues, but I can't even get into it when the thought of fluids make me want to gag. I don't think he'd appreciate it if I did gag during it. I'm worried that he would feel offended or hurt. Having the flavored condom on makes it easier for me and he still feels something, too!


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Yes Dr. Laura, Really! 

If you want to understand men and you refuse to listen to a man. Then Dr. Laura is the most current expert. If you don't like her because she was on the radio and said lots of mean things, then step back in time and read Ellen Kreidman. 

By and large, women don't understand men any better than men understand women. Men accept that women are an unknowable mystery. Women on the other hand make the assumption that in men there is nothing to understand. These very generalized ideas do nothing to help relationships. 

Taking a serious and specific look at your situation, you are 2 short years from the seven year itch (defined as when the youngest child enters first grade), your marriage lacks intimacy and the power is out of balance. You are approaching or are already at a crossroads. Where this goes in the next 3 years depends on decisions you are making right now.

You need to know as much as you can as soon as you can. The theories you have been using are not working. You need to stop discounting everything that conflicts with what you already "know", because what you already "know" is not doing the job. You have shown us your amazing ability to shoot down any idea that conflicts with what you want. That attitude is not conducive to learning. You came here mostly because you wanted validation for you side of the arguments. People with more experience than you, some who have been where you are, have disagreed with your side. If you discount anyone who's opinion differs from your own, you will not be able to learn.

And, you are not done with all that learning stuff. No one is.

MN


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## greenfern (Oct 20, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Did you even read the link? Your comment suggests not.
> 
> And what do you mean "at that moment"? According to the tale you're spinning you've had a nearly sexless marriage. Your level of withholding goes far beyond "at that moment", again according to your story.
> 
> But alas, my suspicions prove valid with each passing post. More holes are showing...


I get the point of the article and I think its a good one, but tbh the generalization of "feminist women" rubs me the wrong way too. From the article:

"In the past, all women understood how men are different than women, but today almost no younger feminist women do...The only thing that they need to know is what makes women happy, and that it is everyone else’s job to make women happy"

This is a huge generalization about what it means to be feminist, its not my kind of feminism. This just sounds like a very selfish, self centered individual.

ETA I quoted the wrong post above, sorry. I meant to quote the OP responding about the article. I meant that in the article the usage of the word 'feminist' bugged me too, thats all. Great article otherwise.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Coldie said:


> You'd rather suck on a condom than possibly have him leak froth? Wtf?
> 
> What condoms are you using that doesn't make you just gag at the smell of them? I can't imagine how any woman could give oral sex to a man with a condom on.


Well you do have to remove that nasty tasting lube they put on the outside . . . .

Actually this part I don't have a problem with. And Mr Nail is a Mister.
MN


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## greenfern (Oct 20, 2012)

thetiredmommy said:


> Oh no, definitely not! I really LOVE my husband. It's just that if I can't have sex that day, there are other ways for me to love to him. It's just that I don't think he fully recognizes that or appreciates the hugs, the holding hands, me listening about his day as much.


Other ways: hand job, blow job, sexual attention of some kind. That is what he appreciates. YOU appreciate hugs, holding hands, etc. Do not do unto others as you would have them do unto you, do unto others as they want to have done to them! (or something like that).


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## I Don't Know (Oct 8, 2013)

thetiredmommy said:


> I would, actually. I know it's my cleanliness issues, but I can't even get into it when the thought of fluids make me want to gag. *I don't think he'd appreciate it if I did gag during it.* I'm worried that he would feel offended or hurt. Having the flavored condom on makes it easier for me and he still feels something, too!


Don't be so sure. Some people are into that.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

thetiredmommy said:


> I would, actually. I know it's my cleanliness issues, but I can't even get into it when the thought of fluids make me want to gag. I don't think he'd appreciate it if I did gag during it. I'm worried that he would feel offended or hurt. Having the flavored condom on makes it easier for me and he still feels something, too!


He would not feel offended if you gagged, he would feel offended if you never tried. Loving enthusiastically is all he needs from you to feel wanted.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

thetiredmommy said:


> No, I'm not writing a paper. I've been done with that stuff for a while now thankfully.  I did, however, take a sex/gender class when I was an undergraduate. That's where I have a hard time with the article. I kept reading "feminists think this" or "the whole problem with feminist women" that felt really attacking. And really, Dr. Laura?? It just feels demeaning. Maybe, I'm wrong about this, but it just gave me such a strong emotional reaction.


The views you've outlined in this thread aren't feminist in nature, not as the original movement was founded.

You expect men to serve your needs, fulfill your wants, and disregard his own voice if it doesn't match your self-created world. You're confusing misandry for egalitarianism. 

You display a deep, abiding disrespect for your "husband", and the role of men as fathers and husbands in general, that reflects nothing but a self serving, bastardization of feminism.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

greenfern said:


> I get the point of the article and I think its a good one, but tbh the generalization of "feminist women" rubs me the wrong way too. From the article:
> 
> "In the past, all women understood how men are different than women, but today almost no younger feminist women do...The only thing that they need to know is what makes women happy, and that it is everyone else’s job to make women happy"
> 
> ...


I think the article was really challenging the notion of what a lot of younger women today consider "feminism" than the actual, real tenets of feminism as it originally formed.


----------



## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

I Don't Know said:


> Don't be so sure. Some people are into that.


Oh geez!!


----------



## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

thetiredmommy said:


> I would, actually. I know it's my cleanliness issues, but I can't even get into it when the thought of fluids make me want to gag. I don't think he'd appreciate it if I did gag during it. I'm worried that he would feel offended or hurt. Having the flavored condom on makes it easier for me and he still feels something, too!


That reminds me of Howard Hughes walking around with empty kleenex boxes on his feet because in his mind that was the cleanest alternative to shoes or his feet touching the floor.


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## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

jaquen said:


> The views you've outlined in this thread aren't feminist in nature, not as the original movement was founded.
> 
> You expect men to serve your needs, fulfill your wants, and disregard his own voice if it doesn't match your self-created world. You're confusing misandry for egalitarianism.
> 
> You display a deep, abiding disrespect for your "husband", and the role of men as fathers and husbands in general, that reflects nothing but a self serving, bastardization of feminism.


But I really don't try to disregard his voice. I know I get upset sometimes, but he has been doing things on his own and I've been ok with that. He's even going to travel for work in the near future and I'm ok with that, too!


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## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

Lila said:


> Just busting in with a tangent on flavored condoms. We got some Glyde strawberry flavored ones in a sampler package and tried them out on a lark. I must say that I was very impressed with the flavor/smell.
> 
> Contrary to popular belief, they do not have a nasty lubricant on the outside. They are actually coated with something that I can only describe as chapstick-like. All and all, it would be something that I would recommend to anyone who is concerned about safe sex.


Thank you! See, it really isn't that bad an alternative. He still gets what he wants and I don't have to worry about wanting to vomit...


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

thetiredmommy said:


> Thank you! See, it really isn't that bad an alternative. He still gets what he wants and I don't have to worry about wanting to vomit...


Just as an FYI... Having sex with a condom is not nearly as pleasurable as sex without. Combine that with you indicating that his body is "icky" and needs to be wrapped in plastic...

When's the last time you gave him a BJ or HJ, anyway? Protected or not?

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## greenfern (Oct 20, 2012)

thetiredmommy said:


> But I really don't try to disregard his voice. I know I get upset sometimes, but he has been doing things on his own and I've been ok with that. He's even going to travel for work in the near future and I'm ok with that, too!


I'm sorry but it seems like you think you are giving him some huge gift by being "ok" with him doing things on his own and "ok" with him traveling for work. I mean its travel for WORK! Its not like he can say no and its not like he is on vacation

(although it will probably feel like it, lol, he could run every day .

Have you read any of the sex in marriage threads, particularly those written by men? Honestly it really opened my eyes more than anything my partner has said, and I used view men a little 2 dimensional as you seem to do.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

I'd rather never get a BJ again then get a condomed one. 

To me that's about as appealing as fat free pork bacon.

What's the point?


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## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

PBear said:


> Just as an FYI... Having sex with a condom is not nearly as pleasurable as sex without. Combine that with you indicating that his body is "icky" and needs to be wrapped in plastic...
> 
> When's the last time you gave him a BJ or HJ, anyway? Protected or not?
> 
> ...


Hmm, about 3 weeks ago before we had sex.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

Have you considered inviting your h to post here? It'd be interesting to hear his side of things.


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## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

Miss Taken said:


> Have you considered inviting your h to post here? It'd be interesting to hear his side of things.


That idea scared me. I'm not sure about doing that right now. I was hoping that this could be a safe space for me.


----------



## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

*Re: Re: does this seem rigid?*



thetiredmommy said:


> That idea scared me. I'm not sure about doing that right now. I was hoping that this could be a safe space for me.


Really? What have you revealed on here that you haven't already discussed with him or that isn't already common knowledge between you two?

Have you not written the truth about things at all? The only reason thus far I can think of for you to be averse to showing him this thread is if you are deliberately keeping him in the dark about how futile a fulfilling sex life with you will ever be for him.

In very interested in hearing what TheTiredDaddy would have to say about his married life.


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## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

Lon said:


> thetiredmommy said:
> 
> 
> > That idea scared me. I'm not sure about doing that right now. I was hoping that this could be a safe space for me.
> ...


I don't know. I'm just really anxious talking about it right now. I don't even know how to bring this up to him.


----------



## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

*Re: Re: does this seem rigid?*



thetiredmommy said:


> I don't know. I'm just really anxious talking about it right now. I don't even know how to bring this up to him.


You have found this place for yourself, so if it doesn't feel right for you to reveal it to your H, definitely don't.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

thetiredmommy said:


> That idea scared me. I'm not sure about doing that right now. I was hoping that this could be a safe space for me.


Fair enough.


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## U.E. McGill (Nov 27, 2013)

thetiredmommy said:


> That idea scared me. I'm not sure about doing that right now. I was hoping that this could be a safe space for me.



This is perfectly acceptable.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

So how do you feel about coming to a forum for support and everyone telling you what you are doing is wrong, and possibly threatening your marriage?


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## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

Deejo said:


> So how do you feel about coming to a forum for support and everyone telling you what you are doing is wrong, and possibly threatening your marriage?


Uncomfortable. Scared. Frustrated.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I don't bring my wife here either. Most don't.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

thetiredmommy said:


> That idea scared me. I'm not sure about doing that right now. I was hoping that this could be a safe space for me.


It is not safe to speak to the husband you claim to love? That would be the first thing to resolve. On a lot of levels.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

thetiredmommy said:


> Uncomfortable. Scared. Frustrated.



Apologize, I can't recall, are you seeing a therapist? That may also be a good outlet to explore the circumstances and feedback that you have been given here.

Basically your therapist can tell you if everyone here is full of beans.

And if she does tell you that, we'll tell you to get a new therapist.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

thetiredmommy said:


> Deejo said:
> 
> 
> > So how do you feel about coming to a forum for support and everyone telling you what you are doing is wrong, and possibly threatening your marriage?
> ...


That response, and you needing a safe place to process are completely reasonable. OTOH your husband deserves to know the truth - that right now your hangups override his needs, you are not genuinely open to working on that in a concerted manner, and that might not (or will not, depending on your mindset) ever change.

Right now your husband likely is holding out hope that somehow his behavior will bring you out of your shell. The truth is he cannot, and he deserves to know so he can make an informed decision about where to put his time and energy. Also, this has been going on for a while - so long that he is starting to seriously doubt you and pull away. The longer this goes on the more he will resent you, and the odds this marriage will survive even if you do change will continue to drop.

My ex and I were in a similar sitch. After a while I pressed her to account for her broken promises and poor sexual performance, which is when she finally told me she never had the desire to do the things she promised and did not intend to work on herself. I came to realize she had done me a favor but was also offended that she could strive to keep me around like that and that I had to force the issue. You see, even if she had genuinely offered to seek the help she needed, I do not think I could have stayed with someone of so low character as to be willing to string me along rather than proactively deal with the issues.

So, you see, it is in your best interests to come clean now (assuming your priority is to have a lasting marriage). And, ethically, he deserves complete honesty from you - that is an absolute.

Again, you need to tell him the unvarnished truth about how you feel regarding sex with him and where you feel his needs rank in regard to your needs znd your baggage.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

thetiredmommy said:


> That idea scared me. I'm not sure about doing that right now. I was hoping that this could be a safe space for me.


Again, if this is real...

You don't need to invite your husband to TAM but I do think the responsible avenue to take is compile your responses and email them to him, or hand him a printed copy.

The thoughts you share here, your overall attitude about marriage, men and women, would be detrimental to many marriages. Your long suffering husband deserve to know what he's truly dealing with so that he can make an informed decision as to whether there is any hope left for a good marriage with you. Right now, according to your posts, you're still offering smoke & mirrors, false hope, and tired excuses. 

And this includes the messages you're leaving in other people's threads, as those show that outside of this thread you're even more adamant in commiserating with other people who merely validate your current views.

Anything less would be fraud.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening TheTiredMommy
I don't think you need to tell your husband what you are discussing here, a private discussion group is fine.

I'm curious. Here, most people have strongly suggested that you be much more sexually open, passionate and adventurous with your husband. Has anyone given you different advice?


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## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening TheTiredMommy
> I don't think you need to tell your husband what you are discussing here, a private discussion group is fine.
> 
> I'm curious. Here, most people have strongly suggested that you be much more sexually open, passionate and adventurous with your husband. Has anyone given you different advice?


Well it's different from what I've been told by my girlfriends when the topic of sex comes up. I don't bring it up but sometimes they want the dirt on our sex life. You know...girl talk. When I do tell them, they're understanding that I'm tired and support me when I say that I should listen to my body.


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## IcePrincess28 (Aug 4, 2014)

thetiredmommy said:


> Well it's different from what I've been told by my girlfriends when the topic of sex comes up. I don't bring it up but sometimes they want the dirt on our sex life. You know...girl talk. When I do tell them, they're understanding that I'm tired and support me when I say that I should listen to my body.



Your friends are not being honest- either bc they do not truly care- or because whats the point? Give advice, risk hurting your feelings- when you're not going to take any of it anyways.

At this point- how ever many posts we are into this thread- what are you trying to accomplish? I know initially- you stated that you wanted validation. Now that you've received the opposite- where do you see yourself going from here?

I think it would be good for TAM members to recommend a couple good threads that give some perspective to others similar to your marriage (perhaps in your husband's shoes).


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Tired,

The longer you hide the real issue under cover of fatigue, the worse it gets. 

Do you want me to channel your H for you? 

Do you want to know what he thinks and feels and wants to say to you, but is afraid to. 

Because he also is suffering from cognitive dissonance. And it's painful for him. And his cognitive dissonance is as easily described as yours. 





thetiredmommy said:


> Well it's different from what I've been told by my girlfriends when the topic of sex comes up. I don't bring it up but sometimes they want the dirt on our sex life. You know...girl talk. When I do tell them, they're understanding that I'm tired and support me when I say that I should listen to my body.


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

thetiredmommy said:


> He's even going to travel for work in the near future and I'm ok with that, too!


That is awfully nice of you not to complain about that. I mean, seeing as how that travel for work supports you and the family.

The amazing thing is that you really don't hear yourself. Your inability to think about anyone other than you is truly amazing. Please flip these post around and listen to them as if he was saying them to you. Consider how you would feel about them if you were the recipient.


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## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Tired,
> 
> The longer you hide the real issue under cover of fatigue, the worse it gets.
> 
> ...


I have a feeling that I'm not going to like this, but ok...can you channel my H?


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## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

IcePrincess28 said:


> Your friends are not being honest- either bc they do not truly care- or because whats the point? Give advice, risk hurting your feelings- when you're not going to take any of it anyways.
> 
> At this point- how ever many posts we are into this thread- what are you trying to accomplish? I know initially- you stated that you wanted validation. Now that you've received the opposite- where do you see yourself going from here?
> 
> I think it would be good for TAM members to recommend a couple good threads that give some perspective to others similar to your marriage (perhaps in your husband's shoes).


It seems like they really do care, though, because they're really sweet and always listen to my concerns. They were really sympathetic when I talked to them about when my husband would express frustration, and they agreed that if he needs relief, that he can just masturbate himself.


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## I Don't Know (Oct 8, 2013)

thetiredmommy said:


> It seems like they really do care, though, because they're really sweet and always listen to my concerns. They were really sympathetic when I talked to them about when my husband would express frustration, and they agreed that if he needs relief, that he can just masturbate himself.


*If relief was what he needed, he WOULD just masturbate himself!* How many times do you need to be told it is an emotional issue?


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

Nikita was banned because she couldn't take anymore of this bs. Move on people there is nothing to see.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

thetiredmommy said:


> Well it's different from what I've been told by my girlfriends when the topic of sex comes up. I don't bring it up but sometimes they want the dirt on our sex life. You know...girl talk. When I do tell them, they're understanding that I'm tired and support me when I say that I should listen to my body.


Good.

You have a friend base to support you through the divorce.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening thetiredmommy
do they also have sex so rarely and passionlessly? Its possible. Friends might reinforce each others behavior - in either direction.

A forum like this is not a "fair" sample because it is filled with people who care enough about these issues to discuss them. 






thetiredmommy said:


> Well it's different from what I've been told by my girlfriends when the topic of sex comes up. I don't bring it up but sometimes they want the dirt on our sex life. You know...girl talk. When I do tell them, they're understanding that I'm tired and support me when I say that I should listen to my body.


----------



## IcePrincess28 (Aug 4, 2014)

thetiredmommy said:


> It seems like they really do care, though, because they're really sweet and always listen to my concerns. They were really sympathetic when I talked to them about when my husband would express frustration, and they agreed that if he needs relief, that he can just masturbate himself.



So you're one of those people that only surround themselves with bobble heads. (Nodding motion).


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## U.E. McGill (Nov 27, 2013)

thetiredmommy said:


> It seems like they really do care, though, because they're really sweet and always listen to my concerns. They were really sympathetic when I talked to them about when my husband would express frustration, and they agreed that if he needs relief, that he can just masturbate himself.



Even the papal enclave had a devils advocate.


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## x598 (Nov 14, 2012)

"that idea scares me"
"i'm afraid of"
"it might make me gag"


OP...........
you need to STOP being AFRAID of everything. seriously, WHAT are you so afraid of??? all i see in all your posts is EVERYTHING is all about you and your fears.

GET OVER YOURSELF. its NOT all about YOU. try watching porn. you will see things you probably have NEVER dreamed of doing. sure, some of it can be a little on the raunchy side, but i will guarantee there is much of it that is very pleasureable.

your self centeredness is going to kill your marriage. your husband will either straight up dump you, eventually, or have an affair. the you can blame him for breaking up your marriage and have a pity party with all your girlfriends who probably neglect their husbands too.

that was my 2x4 shot to your head. I hope instead of getting pissy and offended, you can stop seeing things YOUR WAY ONLY and act like a loving, caring, concerned wife (werent there vows sometime that sounded somthing like that?) who can see your husband has needs and desires and you are doing a PATHETIC job of meeting them. I mean seriously, "he should be greatful for the hand holding and cuddling" you provide? you selfish, self centered lousy human being.....those are YOUR needs you impose on him.

:rant:


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Tired,

I am going to give you 1/3 of the answer, simply to show you that I see both sides to this very clearly.

And then if you want the rest, you are going to have to show some effort on your side of the table. 

Effort as in: Taking an honest look at what's happening between you and your H. Facing it. And then coming up with a plan that shows a bit more commitment to your H than telling him to M. 

He has serious cognitive dissonance because:
- You orgasm most of the time when you two have sex - to him that means you LiKE having sex with him.
- And yet, you avoid having sex with him. He is keenly aware that you have plenty of energy for Pilates, and playing with your daughter, and doing the things you want. So - at some level he knows that you don't like having sex with him. 

The collision of: she orgasms therefore she must like sex and she avoids sex as much as she can, ergo she dislikes it.

That hurts his head and his heart. 

If you want to know what he really WANTS from you, than I need to know you are committed to making some effort. 

And FWIW: his top priority is not getting bj's from you, with or without condoms. When I describe his top priorities, BJ's won't even be on the list. 

And lighten up on the 'flinch' response. At least with me. I'm not here to kick you for the sins of yesterday. I'm trying to help you find the promise of tomorrow. 





thetiredmommy said:


> I have a feeling that I'm not going to like this, but ok...can you channel my H?


----------



## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

Look, I'm not sure why most of you are still giving her advice. She isn't taking it. She hasn't had sex with her H in at least 3 weeks. And just gave more reasons (cold, period, pms, cramps) why she probably won't for another week or 2. 

She (if she is actually a she and isn't a he-troll) isn't going to change her actions for 3 reasons:

1. Her H is putting up with it.

2. Her mother says it's ok.

3. Her friends are saying it's ok. 

Why would she change because a bunch of strangers on an Internet forum are telling her she is wrong? She has a trusted circle of people who are allowing her to do this.


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## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening thetiredmommy
> do they also have sex so rarely and passionlessly? Its possible. Friends might reinforce each others behavior - in either direction.
> 
> A forum like this is not a "fair" sample because it is filled with people who care enough about these issues to discuss them.


Well, one is divorced and isn't dating yet. My other friend divorced, too, but she has an older boyfriend, so they don't do it as much...so I guess it's hard to judge how much sex they're having. 

I know you have a point. People here come because there's a problem that they want to address or they want to be supportive of others here.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

TM, it strikes me that all your little rules and hang ups about what's demeaning and what will make you gag and what you will and won't do are your attempts to protect yourself and control your environment. I recognize this because as a survivor of csa I too tend toward keeping walls up. 

But I've come to realize that this kind of control is an illusion. You think you're protecting yourself but really you're allowing everything else to control you, and in doing so you cripple yourself emotionally. There is great freedom in getting rid of walls and realizing that you can handle whatever happens. That is true strength.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

*Re: Re: does this seem rigid?*



thetiredmommy said:


> Well, one is divorced and isn't dating yet. My other friend divorced, too, but she has an older boyfriend, so they don't do it as much...so I guess it's hard to judge how much sex they're having.
> 
> I know you have a point. People here come because there's a problem that they want to address or they want to be supportive of others here.


Did it occur to you that you are taking sex advice from two people who could not maintain their marriage?


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## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

farsidejunky said:


> thetiredmommy said:
> 
> 
> > Well, one is divorced and isn't dating yet. My other friend divorced, too, but she has an older boyfriend, so they don't do it as much...so I guess it's hard to judge how much sex they're having.
> ...


Well to be fair their ex husbands didn't sound very nice.


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## Miss Independent (Mar 24, 2014)

thetiredmommy said:


> Well to be fair their ex husbands didn't sound very nice.



Sound as in you don't really know what happened between them...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

thetiredmommy said:


> I read it, but I don't like that it has such a negative spin on feminism. Anyways, what's wrong with a person's right to say that they do not want sex at that moment? The idea that a woman should just deal with it and have sex is very coercive, don't you think?



You have the right to say it - it's a free country - but it does not change the fact that it is not a good idea in so many different levels it's not even funny.

The legal system unfortunately will nuke him if he decides to break up with you, all because of denying intimacy.

So he has the option of cheating or stoically accepting the status quo and building up resentment for you.

I'm speaking from experience here. 

After a decent 25 years marriage and two great kids my wife ended up with a personality disorder and other issues and basically shut down in many forms about five years ago. Not completely on the sex front but pretty completely emotionally. Long story short, I'm reaping the benefits of her work (she makes very good money as do I) to finance our kids' education and we will likely split in a couple years. She is not aware of it.

I could also cheat - not a difficult thing to do for me and certainly not because of morality or ethics - bottom line, she will be a wealthy and lonely woman about to retire right this is said and done while I'll be wealthy and having fun. 

If you're lucky your husband will be a good guy till the bitter end. If you're not lucky he will be like me.

I raised two kids nearly alone so that my wife could focus on her education, work, and exercise. I loved doing it. But now these days are over and instead of coming closer together as many empty nesters do she lives in TV and work la-la-land working 16 hour days and the rest TV.

This is not about sex. This is about making and keeping emotional connections. We have sex - not as often as I would like but we do. But while it's good sex the last couple years it's meaningless sex for me. Void of emotions. Not satisfying emotionally.


----------



## doobie (Apr 15, 2014)

Tired Mommy - you should listen to what John has to say - he knows what he's talking about. I've spent the past 18 months of my marriage in a virtually sex-free zone because my husband is LD and just doesn't think about sex from one month to the next. The result is that we have no intimacy in our relationship and, for me, the marriage is just about over. It's not a marriage, it is now a mockery of a marriage. Not only that, but this is bringing me to the verge of depression as I really cannot contemplate going on like this in a mockery of marriage. I now really resent him for asking me to marry him and then turning off the sex when I was trapped. I am losing respect for him and the love is on the way out too. If you don't want your marriage to end up like mine, I strongly suggest that you have sex with your husband at least once a week if not more. Nobody should have to live in such a barren and unrewarding relationship.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

doobie said:


> Tired Mommy - you should listen to what John has to say - he knows what he's talking about. I've spent the past 18 months of my marriage in a virtually sex-free zone because my husband is LD and just doesn't think about sex from one month to the next. The result is that we have no intimacy in our relationship and, for me, the marriage is just about over. It's not a marriage, it is now a mockery of a marriage. Not only that, but this is bringing me to the verge of depression as I really cannot contemplate going on like this in a mockery of marriage. I now really resent him for asking me to marry him and then turning off the sex when I was trapped. I am losing respect for him and the love is on the way out too. If you don't want your marriage to end up like mine, I strongly suggest that you have sex with your husband at least once a week if not more. Nobody should have to live in such a barren and unrewarding relationship.



Based on what you said in another thread I don't think your husband is LD. I think he just isn't that interested in gentle "lovemaking" and you have made it clear you don't like rough sex so he's just lost interest.


----------



## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

> *Originally Posted by thetiredmommy*
> I read it, but I don't like that it has such a negative spin on feminism. Anyways, what's wrong with a person's right to say that they do not want sex at that moment? *The idea that a woman should just deal with it and have sex is very coercive, don't you think?*


We do things all of the time because they are necessary whether we want to do them or not.

Thinking back to when you were nursing your daughter. I've nursed my two sons as babies. I know while a bonding experience, I certainly didn't _feel like it_ at 2:00 a.m., 4:00 a.m. in the morning when they woke up. Still, I did it anyways. There was no coercion. 

My two year old is still in diapers. Once or twice a day he makes a real smelly mess of them. I have never once in my life, _felt like _changing his smelly, poopy diaper. Yet, I do it and do it promptly, usually with a smile on my face, a tickle for him in my hands and a song in my voice. Surprisingly enough... no coercion.

In the summer time, when the garbage is extra smelly, there are flies and possibly maggots which I am irrationally afraid of and disgusted by, I certainly don't_ feel like_ taking out the trash on garbage night but I do it anyways with my partner as a team or if he isn't home, do it without him. There is no coercion. 

I'm quite sure that there are times your husband doesn't feel like cuddling with you on the couch or doesn't want your hugs and kisses because he knows it doesn't lead to sex but does it anyways. Are you coercing him into those acts of intimacy?

My spouse LOVES sex, but I know there are times where he doesn't necessarily _feel like it_ because he has to get up early for work. When I wake him up with foreplay, he was sleeping to begin with so hardly did he "_feel like it_" when we begin. But he does it anyway and save being a little tired in the morning doesn't regret the orgasm, doesn't regret the closeness, doesn't regret remembering the things we did the night before when he's bored at work. 

I am also not turned on all the time. Sometimes I don't feel like it. A week ago I wasn't particularly in the mood. I was tired and getting ready for bed when he initiated. I still got into it and somewhere between starting and half-way through I felt like it. I was turned on and he gave me several orgasms and I certainly didn't regret a thing. In fact, we did it twice. There was no coercion.


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## doobie (Apr 15, 2014)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Based on what you said in another thread I don't think your husband is LD. I think he just isn't that interested in gentle "lovemaking" and you have made it clear you don't like rough sex so he's just lost interest.


I don't think he lost interest because our sex styles are different. On the odd occasion that we do have sex, it is still rough and I still do the stuff he likes - bj's disgustingly dirty talk, slap and scratch his penis and squeeze his balls real hard. When we've talked about it, I've asked him if there is anything I can do to make him want me more and he's replied that he wishes he did want sex more often, he just isn't interested in it at his age (which is a year younger than I). He reckons the main reason for his lack of interest in sex is that he did too much Ecstasy in his younger years and that he has lost the ability to feel pleasure.


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## remcatt (Aug 20, 2014)

Hm, I basically require foreplay, but I would ask your partner 'what is missing from our interactions that you're not liking'

For many people, sex is about sharing something deeper than the act or sex. This might be what he's missing?


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

thetiredmommy said:


> It seems like they really do care, though, because they're really sweet and always listen to my concerns. They were really sympathetic when I talked to them about when my husband would express frustration, and they agreed that if he needs relief, that he can just masturbate himself.


Well, that doesn't mean they agree with you. They could be just providing a place to vent and emotional support. Typically, women are more listeners whereas men are more "fixers" in situations like this.

To be fair to them, are you just complaining and wishing things would change when you mention it? Or, have you asked them "I feel compelled to always put myself first, and this behavior is endangering my marriage - what should I do?"

Also, consider the life situations of the friends who are giving you this advice, and whether you want to wind up like them. One has an older bf so his drive will be low, and one doesn't date. Sounds like quite the life, doesn't it?

Being completely serious though, you have a good guy and are lucky he has stuck with you. I suspect that if you hit the dating scene as you are now (self-centered, intimacy issues, young child, PT job) you would have a hard time finding another partner, and would not find acceptable any guy who was willing to sign on.

Like I said before, it is in your direct best interest to fix these issues ASAP.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

DTO said:


> Being completely serious though, you have a good guy and are lucky he has stuck with you. I suspect that if you hit the dating scene as you are now (self-centered, intimacy issues, young child, PT job) you would have a hard time finding another partner, and would not find acceptable any guy who was willing to sign on.
> 
> 
> 
> Like I said before, it is in your direct best interest to fix these issues ASAP.



Or, as Devo would put it...

Duty now for the future


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Let me elaborate - it's either TAM, a bike ride, or mow the yard and I'm too lazy today - an emotional connection is the "lubricant" that helps smooth out otherwise rough edges in the marriage. Here's an example:

In a few years we are retiring. Wife's idea is to move to Florida and build a mega castle (already living in a 6000 sq ft home for the two of us as girls are in college). My idea is a condo at best and spend half the time in Europe where I outright own a nice flat and a mountain dacha (world class mountain bike trails by the way)

Connected emotionally people can discuss and compromise - maybe spend some money to fix the flat or buy a really nice condo in Tampa. But it don't work that way when you're not connected. Everything has to be debated and argued to submission. I'm not going to buy Oprah's waterfront digs any time soon . 

Think how many critical decisions you will face down the road as a couple. Jobs, kids, house, college, guidance to kids... Emotionally decoupled people will simply go their own way regardless. Not a good strategy.

It's easy to dismiss sex as a physical act of lust only. Sometimes it is, but more often than not it's a lot more than that. 

Any interceded ladies please PM  Must like cats, cycling, video games, and living in the Tora Bora part of Europe (pop. 220, elevation 3000 ft).


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

john117 said:


> Or, as Devo would put it...
> 
> Duty now for the future


LOL!

Ok, but only if we define duty as putting in the hard work to get over her phobias and anxieties, so that a well-adjusted OP does not have to look at sex with her H that way.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

Any CSA, (child sexual abuse) or date rape or anything of the sort in your past OP? What about general abuse?

What has contributed to your depression, anxiety and OCD tendencies and better yet... what are you going to do about it.

It is one thing to be aware of problems but problems ought not to give way to crutches or excuses as a long term solution for life.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

Miss Taken said:


> We do things all of the time because they are necessary whether we want to do them or not.
> 
> Thinking back to when you were nursing your daughter. I've nursed my two sons as babies. I know while a bonding experience, I certainly didn't _feel like it_ at 2:00 a.m., 4:00 a.m. in the morning when they woke up. Still, I did it anyways. There was no coercion.
> 
> ...


Okay, what you are describing here, comparing having sex to changing poopy diapers and taking out maggoty garbage?? That's going beyond calling it 'duty sex,' which is bad enough, and far far into 'chore sex' which is even worse.

That's not a good way to think of it at all. Sex feeling like a chore for one member of the marriage is a bad bad sign. And if Tiredmommy feels like it's a distasteful chore, she's got to communicate with her husband to change that around. Fixing that attitude is going to be a team effort. She needs to be willing to try, and he needs to help her feel that sex is a joyful and mutual pleasure, not just something gross that she does for him so she doesn't end up single.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

I can only write the words, can't dictate how you'll interpret them. 

Happy Sunday.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> Okay, what you are describing here, comparing having sex to changing poopy diapers and taking out maggoty garbage?? That's going beyond calling it 'duty sex,' which is bad enough, and far far into 'chore sex' which is even worse.


I think you are missing the point. The analogy to changing a diaper is not in the vein of "you can do it if you suck it up". Rather, it is meant to show that you can do things not your "cup of tea" in a cheerful and loving manner if your heart is in the right place.

Did you put off changing your kids' diapers as long as possible, do it in a huff, whine and complain, etc.? I would hope not! Personally, I did it with a smile, doing a great job and treating it as a bonding experience with someone who loved me and depended on me to meet that need. And if the need was great (i.e. a "blowout" - I know it's gross) the effort stepped up too - it was bath time which was even more fun.

Granted sex is not the absolute need that a diaper change is, but then again were are not dealing with poop. The real difference is the _conscious_ approach we take to these things. Here, the OP is consciously choosing to make excuses rather than starting the process of digging through her crap to get her mindset where it needs to be (which reflects poorly on her character).


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## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

Miss Taken said:


> Any CSA, (child secual abuse) or date rape or anything of the sort in your past OP? What about general abuse?
> 
> What has contributed to your depression, anxiety and OCD tendencies and better yet... what are you going to do about it.
> 
> It is one thing to be aware of problems but problems ought not to give way to crutches or excuses as a long term solution for life.


Hi. I haven't been raped or abused. i did have a bad experience with a teacher though. He was flirty with me and I think he wanted to try something because he always wanted me to be alone with him. I never let that happen though. I was probably about 15 at the time. The only other thing I can think of is when guys would try to grab me when I was clubbing when I was in college.


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## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

Good morning everyone! I just wanted to share that I had an insight yesterday and wanted to see if I should be nervous about this. I shared that he's getting in better shape but lately his personality our behavior has been different too. A silly Desmond is choosing dinner. Before he would ask me and I would say that I didn't know but he'd keep trying to figure it out until I knew what I wanted. Now he asks and if I don't know he will just choose for us and that's that. 

Another thing is that he'll go somewhere and tell me instead of ask me. I get the feeling he would just go anyway whether I said no or not. he went out for a beer with an old friend and my girl was having a hard time. when I told him that i was having a really hard he have me a hug and talked to our girl about respecting me but he didn't even seem to feel bad. 

So I mean yeah he seems different. As you all know different scares me. I'm worried that I'm losing the sensitive man who I married...


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

thetiredmommy said:


> Good morning everyone! I just wanted to share that I had an insight yesterday and wanted to see if I should be nervous about this. I shared that he's getting in better shape but lately his personality our behavior has been different too. A silly Desmond is choosing dinner. Before he would ask me and I would say that I didn't know but he'd keep trying to figure it out until I knew what I wanted. Now he asks and if I don't know he will just choose for us and that's that.
> 
> Another thing is that he'll go somewhere and tell me instead of ask me. I get the feeling he would just go anyway whether I said no or not. he went out for a beer with an old friend and my girl was having a hard time. when I told him that i was having a really hard he have me a hug and talked to our girl about respecting me but he didn't even seem to feel bad.
> 
> So I mean yeah he seems different. As you all know different scares me. I'm worried that I'm losing the sensitive man who I married...


LOL! Maybe he has a thread on here and is getting advice from people about no longer being a doormat. Sounds like someone bought one of the SIM bibles...

ETA - hope that what I wrote above is true because it would mean he's still interested in keeping the marriage. Otherwise, he may be disengaging because he hit his limit. Either way, how are you going to respond?


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## I Don't Know (Oct 8, 2013)

The "sensitive man" was taken for granted. He is trying to change the dynamic. Do you blame him? Now the question is, is he doing a 180 or a MAP?


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## U.E. McGill (Nov 27, 2013)

thetiredmommy said:


> Good morning everyone! I just wanted to share that I had an insight yesterday and wanted to see if I should be nervous about this. I shared that he's getting in better shape but lately his personality our behavior has been different too. A silly Desmond is choosing dinner. Before he would ask me and I would say that I didn't know but he'd keep trying to figure it out until I knew what I wanted. Now he asks and if I don't know he will just choose for us and that's that.
> 
> Another thing is that he'll go somewhere and tell me instead of ask me. I get the feeling he would just go anyway whether I said no or not. he went out for a beer with an old friend and my girl was having a hard time. when I told him that i was having a really hard he have me a hug and talked to our girl about respecting me but he didn't even seem to feel bad.
> 
> So I mean yeah he seems different. As you all know different scares me. I'm worried that I'm losing the sensitive man who I married...



The exact advice I would give your husband: 

Get Fit
Quit asking for permission
Lead your wife (when she asks what you want tell her!)
Don't defer your leadership away
Take her off the pedestal
Her feelings are hers to deal with. Don't get invested in them. 

You can have the love you want, weather it's your wife or someone else. 



Unfortunately and quite honestly if he's following one of the typical plans, the end result will be you being told to shape up or ship out.


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## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> LOL! Maybe he has a thread on here and is getting advice from people about no longer being a doormat. Sounds like someone bought one of the SIM bibles...
> 
> ETA - hope that what I wrote above is true because it would mean he's still interested in keeping the marriage. Otherwise, he may be disengaging because he hit his limit. Either way, how are you going to respond?


What is a SIM bible? 

I don't know how to respond. I feel a little lost because he seems so different. Well...I guess now that I think about it, he seems more like how he used to be before we had some talks about our relationship. These were talks when I told him that I need him to support me and not be so argumentative. He would say that he wasn't being argumentative, but that it was ok for him to have a different opinion than me...but that did make me feel unsupported at times. He would push back and say that he was losing his voice, but eventually I would see the sensitive parts I liked about him more often. So it feels like that's changing...


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## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

I Don't Know said:


> The "sensitive man" was taken for granted. He is trying to change the dynamic. Do you blame him? Now the question is, is he doing a 180 or a MAP?


What is 180? Is MAP an acronym for something? You're losing me here...


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## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

U.E. McGill said:


> The exact advice I would give your husband:
> 
> Get Fit
> Quit asking for permission
> ...


I like that he's getting in shape, but I'm not liking the steps two and three. How are we supposed to be a team when he just does what he wants and is "leading" me??

My feelings are mine to deal with? But isn't emotional support important in a marriage or any relationship for that matter?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

thetiredmommy said:


> What is 180? Is MAP an acronym for something? You're losing me here...


These are all more or less synonyms for advice to a husband who has a wife with little or no sexual interest in how to react to that situation. The executive summary is they all tell a husband to work on improving his own self and standing up for his needs. If in the process his wife decides he's actually more desirable and she "ups her game" accordingly, then great! But if not, the effort pays in dividends for personal happiness and ultimately in finding a new mate who values him for what he is. 

The underlying premise, true or not, is that a man who is self confident, fit, and self-reliant is a more sexually attractive man to everyone, his current spouse included.


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## greenfern (Oct 20, 2012)

thetiredmommy said:


> I like that he's getting in shape, but I'm not liking the steps two and three. How are we supposed to be a team when he just does what he wants and is "leading" me??
> 
> My feelings are mine to deal with? But isn't emotional support important in a marriage or any relationship for that matter?


He is not responsible for your feelings. Emotional support isn't the same as taking responsibility for your happiness..only you can do that.

You don't ask him permission, and you definitely tell him what you want. He needs to do the same so that he isn't like a doormat in the relationship.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

thetiredmommy said:


> My feelings are mine to deal with? But isn't emotional support important in a marriage or any relationship for that matter?


This is how you treat him, why shouldn't he treat you the same way?


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

As others have said... He's starting to do the things that we'd be telling him to do to "man up" and balance out the relationship. And one of the things that would be intended to do is shake up your confidence that he's simply going to keep being your lap dog. If he was a friend of mine, I'd be buying him a beer and saying "Great job!". 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## I Don't Know (Oct 8, 2013)

Cletus said:


> These are all more or less synonyms for advice to a husband who has a wife with little or no sexual interest in how to react to that situation. The executive summary is they all tell a husband to work on improving his own self and standing up for his needs. If in the process his wife decides he's actually more desirable and she "ups her game" accordingly, then great! But if not, the effort pays in dividends for personal happiness and ultimately in finding a new mate who values him for what he is.
> 
> The underlying premise, true or not, is that a man who is self confident, fit, and self-reliant is a more sexually attractive man to everyone, his current spouse included.


This. I would add that the 180 is more about getting ready to leave where the MAP is hopeful that the wife will "come around" At least that's my understanding and the context in which I posted.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

greenfern said:


> He is not responsible for your feelings. Emotional support isn't the same as taking responsibility for your happiness..only you can do that.
> 
> You don't ask him permission, and you definitely tell him what you want. He needs to do the same so that he isn't like a doormat in the relationship.


THIS. Emotional support does not take the form of agreeing with your opinions.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Tired,

When it gets bad enough you will come back to this thread with a different mindset. 

When you return you will say: Things have gotten really bad and I don't know what to do. 

Followed by

MEM, you offered to tell me what he wants, I really do want to know and I'm committed to trying to make this marriage better for HIM. 

That said, this is like cancer. Stage (1) at the moment. Not too hard to treat. But if you come back at stage 3/4 when it's metastasized, that will be a whole different story. 

In the meantime, I don't bother to channel your H, because you have shown no commitment to him whatsoever. 





thetiredmommy said:


> Good morning everyone! I just wanted to share that I had an insight yesterday and wanted to see if I should be nervous about this. I shared that he's getting in better shape but lately his personality our behavior has been different too. A silly Desmond is choosing dinner. Before he would ask me and I would say that I didn't know but he'd keep trying to figure it out until I knew what I wanted. Now he asks and if I don't know he will just choose for us and that's that.
> 
> Another thing is that he'll go somewhere and tell me instead of ask me. I get the feeling he would just go anyway whether I said no or not. he went out for a beer with an old friend and my girl was having a hard time. when I told him that i was having a really hard he have me a hug and talked to our girl about respecting me but he didn't even seem to feel bad.
> 
> So I mean yeah he seems different. As you all know different scares me. I'm worried that I'm losing the sensitive man who I married...


----------



## U.E. McGill (Nov 27, 2013)

I Don't Know said:


> This. I would add that the 180 is more about getting ready to leave where the MAP is hopeful that the wife will "come around" At least that's my understanding and the context in which I posted.



The MAP is the MALE ACTION PLAN. Thousands of guys have run it successfully. It's about upping you sexual market value to your spouse, or who replaces them. 

The 180 is about shocking a wayward spouse out of their affair fog. They are very different.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

U.E. McGill said:


> The MAP is the MALE ACTION PLAN. Thousands of guys have run it successfully. It's about upping you sexual market value to your spouse, or who replaces them.
> 
> The 180 is about shocking a wayward spouse out of their affair fog. They are very different.


The 180 is about detaching from a spouse. It may sometimes have the effect of shocking a wayward spouse, or shocking a sexless spouse once they realize the person doing the 180 is detaching, but the purpose is the detachment. If you go into the 180 with the goal of shocking your spouse into changing their behavior, well, you're doing it wrong. Just like threatening divorce when you don't really intend to, it simply doesn't work.

I would say, the MAP is like the carrot and the 180 is like the stick.


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## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

U.E. McGill said:


> The MAP is the MALE ACTION PLAN. Thousands of guys have run it successfully. It's about upping you sexual market value to your spouse, or who replaces them.
> 
> The 180 is about shocking a wayward spouse out of their affair fog. They are very different.


I'm having a hard time processing this...that my husband is actively looking to replace me.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

thetiredmommy said:


> I'm having a hard time processing this...that my husband is actively looking to replace me.


You're likely (hopefully) looking at it wrong. He's probably dieing inside, trying to understand why the woman who promised to love him for as long as you both live, doesn't want to be intimate with him. So he's doing everything he can to make himself more sexually attractive to you. 

On the plus side (for him)... While he wishes you'd go weak in the knees and tear off your clothes when you see him, if things don't turn around with you two, he'll have a head start on wife 2.0.

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Abc123wife (Sep 18, 2013)

thetiredmommy said:


> I'm having a hard time processing this...that my husband is actively looking to replace me.


No way! Why would he want to replace you?! He would rather remain essentially sexless, with no freedom to even go jog an hour per week, while working full-time, coming home to make dinner most nights and taking care of your child while you go to pilates and watch hours of TV. Why wouldn't he be ecstatic thinking of the rest of his life being married to you?


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

thetiredmommy said:


> What is a SIM bible?
> 
> I don't know how to respond. I feel a little lost because he seems so different. Well...I guess now that I think about it, he seems more like how he used to be before we had some talks about our relationship. These were talks when I told him that I need him to support me and not be so argumentative. He would say that he wasn't being argumentative, but that it was ok for him to have a different opinion than me...but that did make me feel unsupported at times. He would push back and say that he was losing his voice, but eventually I would see the sensitive parts I liked about him more often. So it feels like that's changing...


Interesting. There is a thread someowhere now by a husband whose wife wants him to agree with her all the time....


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## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

WandaJ said:


> Interesting. There is a thread someowhere now by a husband whose wife wants him to agree with her all the time....


Do you think that my H is on here?


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

thetiredmommy said:


> Do you think that my H is on here?


I have an idea. Why don't you read through all of the sexless men's threads and try to figure out which one is your husband.


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## Abc123wife (Sep 18, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I have an idea. Why don't you read through all of the sexless men's threads and try to figure out which one is your husband.


Unless she finds a thread with a husband that is supportive of his wife making the marriage sexless, thetiredmommy will not see it as her husband.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

thetiredmommy said:


> Good morning everyone! I just wanted to share that I had an insight yesterday and wanted to see if I should be nervous about this. I shared that he's getting in better shape but lately his personality our behavior has been different too. A silly Desmond is choosing dinner. Before he would ask me and I would say that I didn't know but he'd keep trying to figure it out until I knew what I wanted. Now he asks and if I don't know he will just choose for us and that's that.
> 
> Another thing is that he'll go somewhere and tell me instead of ask me. I get the feeling he would just go anyway whether I said no or not. he went out for a beer with an old friend and my girl was having a hard time. when I told him that i was having a really hard he have me a hug and talked to our girl about respecting me but he didn't even seem to feel bad.
> 
> So I mean yeah he seems different. As you all know different scares me. I'm worried that I'm losing the sensitive man who I married...


I was wondering when the next chapter of this now predictable narrative would drop. Right on time your long suffering, sensitive "hubby" is suddenly sounding like a classic MMSLPer, adding fuel to a stalling story.

Go ahead TiredMommy, keep feeding the masses. You've got a captive readership...


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## U.E. McGill (Nov 27, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> The 180 is about detaching from a spouse. It may sometimes have the effect of shocking a wayward spouse, or shocking a sexless spouse once they realize the person doing the 180 is detaching, but the purpose is the detachment. If you go into the 180 with the goal of shocking your spouse into changing their behavior, well, you're doing it wrong. Just like threatening divorce when you don't really intend to, it simply doesn't work.
> 
> I would say, the MAP is like the carrot and the 180 is like the stick.



Much better said. This.


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## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

jaquen said:


> I was wondering when the next chapter of this now predictable narrative would drop. Right on time your long suffering, sensitive "hubby" is suddenly sounding like a classic MMSLPer, adding fuel to a stalling story.
> 
> Go ahead TiredMommy, keep feeding the masses. You've got a captive readership...


Ok, what is MMSLP? :scratchhead:


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

thetiredmommy said:


> Ok, what is MMSLP? :scratchhead:


I believe you already know.

I'm wondering if you...I mean your "husband" has recently registered to start a thread yet. That's often how these stories play out.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

thetiredmommy said:


> Do you think that my H is on here?


it wouldn't be surprising. There are many desparate people here, trying to figure out how to save their marriages, or "should I stay or should I go"?


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## Abc123wife (Sep 18, 2013)

thetiredmommy said:


> Ok, what is MMSLP? :scratchhead:


Really? You can google enough to make your way to this site to share all your strange idiosyncrasies but you lack the ability to google acronyms?


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Abc123wife said:


> Really? You can google enough to make your way to this site to share all your strange idiosyncrasies but you are lack the ability to google acronyms?


Kinda up there with someone who shows working knowledge of advanced Feminist theory, states that she purposefully subverts the "dom-sub" nature of traditional marriage and aims, on purpose, for a more "egalitarian" state of matrimony...

...yet somehow is a naive housewife who is ignorant to even the most basic, rudimentary marital and sexual realities, complete with claiming her husband has a porn addiction after she, just once, found some porn on his iPad. 

Keep looking. You'll find more holes and contradictions spread throughout her 3 threads.

All three of them started within 24 hours of each other.
All three of them hitting on hot button TAM topics guaranteed to stir the pot.

This is just the only one that wasn't locked.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Tired Mommy,
You said something interesting about meal planning. I've been married about 4 x as long as you have and I'm pretty sure your husband is onto something that took me years to learn. The problem is you don't appreciate it.

OK stop me if I've got this wrong but this is the new method. He asks what do you want for dinner he makes a few (2-3) suggestions. You reject all. He chooses one and makes it.

You don't appreciate it because you are used to him giving you 7-20 options until he stumbles on the perfect one. The old method gives you more conversation time with him at the expense of his frustration. It also made you feel that he really wanted to princess you.

This is a man with an advanced degree. he is Just trying to stream line a frustratingly inefficient process. You could at any time get exactly the meal you want, by paying the simple price of knowing what it is without him playing 20 questions. The truth is probably that you really don't care what you eat most days. Most everything he cooks is better than cooking yourself. So most days let him do this the new efficient way.

Just for contrast look at how a couple married 27 years handles the situation. Her: " what would you like for dinner?" Him: "What 2 or three things do I have to choose from? Her: "A B or C But I really want to eat A." Him: "I hate A so I'll just make up a bit of D for myself." or Him: Would you like A or B for dinner tonight?" Her: "Oh B sounds lovely".

See how this efficient method hashed out over 29 years is so similar to what your husband is doing now? You always have the option to ask for what you want, and he avoids the frustration of the guessing game by giving you a simple decision to make.

I know you are frustrated and scared because things are changing. He is just being a man and fixing it. None of your freedom is lost. Even if you really hate what he decides to cook, you are able to eat something you can fix for yourself.

MN


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

ABC,
I often have trouble with acronyms here. Just the other day I googled CSA and learned all about community sponsored agriculture. I'm still not sure what that has to do with abuse but . . . . 

MN


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## Abc123wife (Sep 18, 2013)

jaquen said:


> Kinda up there with someone who shows working knowledge of advanced Feminist theory, states that she purposefully subverts the "dom-sub" nature of traditional marriage and aims, on purpose, for a more "egalitarian" state of matrimony...
> 
> ...yet somehow is a naive housewife who is ignorant to even the most basic, rudimentary marital and sexual realities, complete with claiming her husband has a porn addiction after she, just once, found some porn on his iPad.
> 
> ...


Oh I know and have pointed it out. I notice she never responds to anything I post or ask her. Too hard to keep the story line going when someone points out faults in the plot line and in the character development!


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Jaquen you're ruining our fun!


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## Abc123wife (Sep 18, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Jaquen you're ruining our fun!


We could all start a game of guessing the next TTM (thetiredmommy) post. What dilemma will be next... 
Will hubby demand to run twice a week? Will hubby finally tell TTM that he does not want to watch Project Runway and demand to watch NCIS instead? Will hubby reveal he doesn't care whether TTM likes spaghetti for dinner and make it anyway? What excitement comes next?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

thetiredmommy said:


> Ok, what is MMSLP? :scratchhead:



Merchant Marine Sex Life Primer. How to keep a marriage alive when you're having sex once a month....

Just kidding. It's a well known acronym for Married Man Sex Life Primer, a staple book for married men in such situations. Interesting read and works well for a number of cases.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Jaquen you're ruining our fun!


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

thetiredmommy said:


> I like that he's getting in shape, but I'm not liking the steps two and three. How are we supposed to be a team when he just does what he wants and is "leading" me??
> 
> My feelings are mine to deal with? But isn't emotional support important in a marriage or any relationship for that matter?


First of all, you are not a team right now. You do whatever the hell you want, leave him scraps of time, attention, and regard, and expect him to like it. What part of that is fair to him?

He can support you without agreeing with you. Your argument sounds like my 11 year-old copping an attitude, telling me I don't understand her viewpoint because if I did I would let her have her way. My response to her is that it doesn't make sense because she is focusing only on her wants and needs without seeing the big picture.

The same response is appropriate to you here.


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## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

DTO said:


> thetiredmommy said:
> 
> 
> > I like that he's getting in shape, but I'm not liking the steps two and three. How are we supposed to be a team when he just does what he wants and is "leading" me??
> ...


Maybe you're right. I'm just having a hard time with all these reality checks. It's like you're confirming a lot of the things my therapist challenges in session. I didn't want to believe that his perspective taking was right. He said my anxiety and abandonment issues could set in motion what I fear most... pushing people away. I just don't know how ready I am to change.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Abc123wife said:


> Oh I know and have pointed it out. I notice she never responds to anything I post or ask her. Too hard to keep the story line going when someone points out faults in the plot line and in the character development!


I know it sounds fishy. But I think this is legit (rather, it is of a real person discussing what she perceives as being the issues in her marriage).

My ex was very much like this. She'd complain to whomever would listen, and alter the story if needed, just to get sympathy. She's pretty crafty so inconsistencies were rare to someone not with her daily, but I'd catch her in them every so often.

She was also very narcissistic, so she'd legitimately think she was entitled to better treatment than me, etc. Questions don't get answered because they conflicted with her self image. "How can we have a discussion if you cannot agree that I do deserve to come first?"

I am going to take one more shot at this, then most likely bow out.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

thetiredmommy said:


> Maybe you're right. I'm just having a hard time with all these reality checks. It's like you're confirming a lot of the things my therapist challenges in session. I didn't want to believe that his perspective taking was right. He said my anxiety and abandonment issues could set in motion what I fear most... pushing people away. *I just don't know how ready I am to change.*


If what you say is true, it sounds like your husband is on the path to help you figure this out soon enough.


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

If you're not ready to change, you better be ready to accept the consequences.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

thetiredmommy said:


> Maybe you're right. I'm just having a hard time with all these reality checks. It's like you're confirming a lot of the things my therapist challenges in session. I didn't want to believe that his perspective taking was right. He said my anxiety and abandonment issues could set in motion what I fear most... pushing people away. I just don't know how ready I am to change.


Like I noted before, I know what you're going through. I did it with my ex-wife, and she had complicating factors of having an abusive and poor childhood (parents constantly had to scramble and sometimes rely on charity to feed the kids).

So, what I can tell you in no uncertain terms is: your husband is getting tired of your continued self-centeredness. He has tried to tolerate your selfishness and tried to prove himself to you, hoping that by showing you he is on your side you would loosen up and reciprocate. Now, he is starting to prioritize himself since you are so selfish. It is too frustrating and painful to always be shown to be inferior and unworthy by your actions.

Probably, right now he is still hopeful that you will find a way to be fair to him. Pulling away from you is self-preservation. Eventually, if you don't change, he will come to resent your selfishness and decide he is better off alone either living a separate life while remaining married, or leaving.

The cold, hard truth is that change is coming whether you like it or not. And, in your current mindset, that change is going to feel bad. Your H has learned that being deferential to you does not make you want to reciprocate and (more importantly) he is tired of the dynamic. You have two choices:

1) Figure out how to start meeting his need, or
2) Lead largely separate lives (or divorce outright).

You do more, or he does less. I know right now that sounds like you lose either way. But, it is what it is. You need to decide: are you going to step up your game or watch him drift away?

It is not a rhetorical question. My ex chose to move on and find someone willing to put up with her. He is significantly older, in really bad physical shape (and I could stand to lose a big belly myself), has serious chronic health issues, but hey she doesn't have to do many chores or have much sex with him!

Similarly I was reading a Christian-oriented blog where the author was telling ladies that sometimes they create the marital problems by putting their husbands on the back burner, and challenged them to do better. One reader responded and said the only reason she chose her husband is because he willingly became her "servant leader". If he had said "this is what I need from you" she would have run away and not looked back.

You need to decide which it is going to be. If you really want this marriage to work, do your part now and meet his need before he decides he is better off with someone else. Otherwise, tell him directly and back out of this marriage gracefully and fairly (to him). Trust me when I tell you that milking this situation for all it is worth is the worst option. You guys have a child together and you want to remain friendly for her sake if the marriage does not last.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The post below is equally honest and frightening. 

Frightening for you, not for him. 

The market demand for a husband like yours is high. 

The demand for a wife like you, is low. 

The likely outcome is that you are single and sad. And he is remarried and happy. 




thetiredmommy said:


> Maybe you're right. I'm just having a hard time with all these reality checks. It's like you're confirming a lot of the things my therapist challenges in session. I didn't want to believe that his perspective taking was right. He said my anxiety and abandonment issues could set in motion what I fear most... pushing people away. I just don't know how ready I am to change.


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## dollygal (Sep 23, 2014)

I don't consider your hygiene, lack of interest in foreplay, or bj with a condom rigid. Nor more than I consider no interest in hygiene, interest in foreplay, or bjs without a condom loose/freaky.

However mainstream wise labels are pretty much determined by male desire and few guys want a bj with a condom so you'd be degraded as rigid/prude/incapable of being fun because you don't do what they want.

I find for gals when it comes to sex the hetero-normative is do what the guy wants and act like you like it if you don't.


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## thefam (Sep 9, 2014)

dollygal said:


> I don't consider your hygiene, lack of interest in foreplay, or bj with a condom rigid. Nor more than I consider no interest in hygiene, interest in foreplay, or bjs without a condom loose/freaky.
> 
> However mainstream wise labels are pretty much determined by male desire and few guys want a bj with a condom so you'd be degraded as rigid/prude/incapable of being fun because you don't do what they want.
> 
> I find for gals when it comes to sex the hetero-normative is do what the guy wants and act like you like it if you don't.


Dolly your post stood out in this thread so I went to your profile and read what you have posted so far on TAM. I wish you would start a thread. I will have to duck to avoid all the debris thrown at me but I am convinced there are not that many truly LD women who never want to have sex with their husbands. I think the LD may be a symptom of other sexual and emotional issues that result in LD. A lot of it may possibly be as simple as sexual technique and approach.


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## dollygal (Sep 23, 2014)

thefam said:


> Dolly your post stood out in this thread so I went to your profile and read what you have posted so far on TAM. I wish you would start a thread. I will have to duck to avoid all the debris thrown at me but *I am convinced there are not that many truly LD women who never want to have sex with their husbands. * I think the LD may be a symptom of other sexual and emotional issues that result in LD. A lot of it may possibly be as simple as sexual technique and approach.


I'm unsure what that has to do with any of my posts as I never said there are many LDs who never want to have sex with their husbands. :scratchhead:


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

There seems to be such a disconnect from reality in this thread.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

dollygal said:


> I find for gals when it comes to sex the hetero-normative is do what the guy wants and act like you like it if you don't.


Gal here. Some of us actually enjoy giving a BJ without a condom. And having sex and not thinking it's nasty because there are fluids involved.

I'd be turned off if a man told me he wanted me to use a condom for a BJ... especially my husband. And I'd be upset and feel rejected if the same person didn't want to sleep with me because they thought my sex "fluids" were gross. That's what makes it fun, IMO.


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## thefam (Sep 9, 2014)

dollygal said:


> I'm unsure what that has to do with any of my posts as I never said there are many LDs who never want to have sex with their husbands. :scratchhead:


I said NOT THAT MANY. But never mind.


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## thefam (Sep 9, 2014)

Jellybeans said:


> There seems to be such a disconnect from reality in this thread.


I think the majority of posters in this thread doubt its authenticity even if they are posting as if its true.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

True. For me it's not so hard to believe that the OP may actually feel this way. What is hard for me is to believe the husband would tolerate any of this unless he is having a string of affairs or something.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

dollygal said:


> I don't consider your hygiene, lack of interest in foreplay, or bj with a condom rigid. Nor more than I consider no interest in hygiene, interest in foreplay, or bjs without a condom loose/freaky.


This thread whether authentic or not and the other issues in OP's marriage go much beyond that. If her only issues were wanting to brush teeth and have clean sheets before sex...heck, even if you included the condom covered BJ's, then this wouldn't be such a long thread.



dollygal said:


> However mainstream wise labels are pretty much determined by male desire and few guys want a bj with a condom so you'd be degraded as rigid/prude/incapable of being fun because you don't do what they want.
> 
> I find for gals when it comes to sex the hetero-normative is do what the guy wants and act like you like it if you don't.


Okay, bait taken. I read your other contributions to TAM thus far. It seems you and I have distinctly different (negative) experiences whether actual or vicarious and thus distinctly different attitudes about sex. I hope your posts aren't a reflection of what you've experienced in your own marriage/relationships. If they are, I'm sorry. 

In my experience, MOST men want to please in the bedroom. MOST derive pleasure from pleasing their lady in the bedroom... funnily enough, this is true in the reverse for many women as well. I know it's true for this (me) woman.

So I don't think they are as broad as you've been saying... certainly not broad enough to paint with claims of hetero-normative and mainstream strokes. Both of which kind of contradict each other. How can something be considered normative and also mainstream? 

Something that's normal or the standard tends to be something that's occurred for a long period of time in contrast to any alternatives or exceptions which happen more sporadically. Mainstream is new, sometimes novel but either way used to mean current. Like a current practice, a fad, a current thought or trend held by the majority. So you are saying in the above that it's a new but also very old standard practice... that just doesn't make sense. It sounds like a bunch of word salad to me, to try to make something that you personally believe or have experienced sound like it's true for the majority.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

thefam said:


> I think the majority of posters in this thread doubt its authenticity even if they are posting as if its true.


I agree with some of the inconsistencies pointed out and they make me skeptic. I do believe it is possible for a woman to think/feel this way about sex (and we also have a man on this forum who I think is similar to tiredmommy, so men can have such views also). 

There are plenty of sexless or lackluster sex marriage threads in the Considering Divorce or Separation forum by husbands who claim their wives behave similarly to the OP. So that's why I keep on reading an example of the other side of the story as presented here.


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## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

Wolf1974 said:


> True. For me it's not so hard to believe that the OP may actually feel this way. What is hard for me is to believe the husband would tolerate any of this unless he is having a string of affairs or something.


I don't think he's having an affair. I haven't found anything suspicious and I'm not worried about his behavior, other than people pointing out that he's getting in shape to leave me. I hope that's not true. All this change is really hard. I don't know how much I believe in myself to make these changes, but yes it does scare me to hear that my husband apparently has a "high value" if he were to be single again. It's like I have to change overnight, but I've been coping with anxiety for years...


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

He has been coping with the consequences of your anxiety for years as well. 

You are still only considering yourself.

Consider for a moment that he might be emotionally drained. Think about that. Each time someone posts about what your husband is potentially going through, your reaction is to still talk about yourself and what you can deal with. You have an empathy problem. 

I understand he has allowed it, but he is not here for advice. You are. If he were here, I would advise him to do exactly what he is doing; be himself, be assertive, be loving. And if his wife's behavior were to remain the same after a determined period of time (say 6 months or so), to leave her.

You still have time to do something about it. But hiding and seeking comfort will assure you what Mem referenced earlier. You are going to have to get out of your comfort zone not only for your husband's sake, but for your own.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

thetiredmommy said:


> I don't think he's having an affair. I haven't found anything suspicious and I'm not worried about his behavior, other than people pointing out that he's getting in shape to leave me. I hope that's not true. All this change is really hard. I don't know how much I believe in myself to make these changes, but yes it does scare me to hear that my husband apparently has a "high value" if he were to be single again. It's like I have to change overnight, but I've been coping with anxiety for years...


If the changes related to your behavior and how you treat your husband seem so scary to you, try to think about the real changes you will have to face when he leaves.

Get off your butt and start working on yourself and your marriage before it's too late.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

thetiredmommy said:


> I don't think he's having an affair. I haven't found anything suspicious and I'm not worried about his behavior, other than people pointing out that he's getting in shape to leave me. I hope that's not true. All this change is really hard. I don't know how much I believe in myself to make these changes, but yes it does scare me to hear that my husband apparently has a "high value" if he were to be single again. It's like I have to change overnight, but I've been coping with anxiety for years...


If how you describe your husband is anything near accurate, he indeed has VERY HIGH dating market value...he is the guy women are asking about when they ask "Where are all the good men?" I can only imagine how much more of a good man, husband, lover he will become when he is with a women who supports him, and allows him to grow beyond where he is right now.

From what I have seen you post here about yourself, you currently have VERY LOW dating market value, and even lower relationship value.

The 180, which he is following to the textbook letter is about self improvement, and nothing more. He will attract a lot of high quality female attention.

The reason it is suggested as A LAST RESORT in a failing marriage where the wife does not respect her husband and does not show attraction is two fold. First, he is improving himself, and is putting himself in prime position to move on, and second, a side affect is that SOMETIMES, his wife will respond and become more attracted.


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## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

samyeagar said:


> If how you describe your husband is anything near accurate, he indeed has VERY HIGH dating market value...he is the guy women are asking about when they ask "Where are all the good men?" I can only imagine how much more of a good man, husband, lover he will become when he is with a women who supports him, and allows him to grow beyond where he is right now.
> 
> From what I have seen you post here about yourself, you currently have VERY LOW dating market value, and even lower relationship value.
> 
> ...


I'm not ignoring your response...I'm just completely lost becaus I don't know what to say to this...


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Miss Taken said:


> I agree with some of the inconsistencies pointed out and they make me skeptic. I do believe it is possible for a woman to think/feel this way about sex (and we also have a man on this forum who I think is similar to tiredmommy, so men can have such views also).
> 
> There are plenty of sexless or lackluster sex marriage threads in the Considering Divorce or Separation forum by husbands who claim their wives behave similarly to the OP. So that's why I keep on reading an example of the other side of the story as presented here.


The premise isn't the give away, the execution is.


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## dollygal (Sep 23, 2014)

Jellybeans said:


> Gal here. Some of us actually enjoy giving a BJ without a condom. And having sex and not thinking it's nasty because there are fluids involved.
> 
> I'd be turned off if a man told me he wanted me to use a condom for a BJ... especially my husband. And I'd be upset and feel rejected if the same person didn't want to sleep with me because they thought my sex "fluids" were gross. That's what makes it fun, IMO.


I didn't state or suggest that there aren't some women in fact I stated there was:
*I don't consider your bj with a condom rigid. Nor more than I consider bjs without a condom loose/freaky*

The quote you are referring to isn't even talking about bjs without a condom.


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## dollygal (Sep 23, 2014)

Miss Taken said:


> This thread whether authentic or not and the other issues in OP's marriage go much beyond that. If her only issues were wanting to brush teeth and have clean sheets before sex...heck, even if you included the condom covered BJ's, then this wouldn't be such a long thread.


This thread goes much beyond that it seems for those keen on attacking the OP and her tastes. In such a case I'll stick to the OP.



Miss Taken said:


> Okay, bait taken.


There's no bait to take. If you want argument you can look elsewhere.

As for your question 'How can something be considered normative and also mainstream? ':
It's not contradictory if you read and saw I was talking about different things:
Hetero-normative: sex being male oriented...this is the standard
_ for gals when it comes to sex the hetero-normative is do what the guy wants and act like you like it if you don't._

Mainstream: labels..the labels for the acts are new
_mainstream wise labels are pretty much determined by male desire _


_So you are saying in the above that it's a new but also very old standard practice... that just doesn't make sense. _
What doesn't make sense is how you muddled two different concepts I attached two different words to. It sounds like you either lack reading comprehension or were so quick to defend the poor menz that you just mashed everything together to suit your opposition.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

"for gals when it comes to sex the hetero-normative is do what the guy wants and act like you like it if you don't."

No, not really. I'm sorry you have such poor experience. I hope you'll get to enjoy it one day.


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## dollygal (Sep 23, 2014)

thetiredmommy said:


> I'm not ignoring your response...I'm just completely lost becaus I don't know what to say to this...


If it's about him cheating:
You could take it as if he cheats then he cheats. Going by male infidelity statistics his cheating possibly would have occurred if you did what he wanted.

If anything it may be easier and less burdening of guilt/remorse to already think of him as unfaithful. 

If it's about you being Low Market Value:
You could take it as if this what most males value it may be better off for you.


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## dollygal (Sep 23, 2014)

WandaJ said:


> No, not really. I'm sorry you have such poor experience. I hope you'll get to enjoy it one day.


Yes really at least going by studies, surveys, polls, and research such as on the topic of fake orgasms- says otherwise.

I'm sorry you are so assumptive when nowhere did I state this was my experience. This isn't a case of projecting a singular poor experience that is out of the norm. It's a perception from observations and reading a multitude of research.


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## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

dollygal said:


> If it's about him cheating:
> You could take it as if he cheats then he cheats. Going by male infidelity statistics his cheating possibly would have occurred if you did what he wanted.
> 
> If anything it may be easier and less burdening of guilt/remorse to already think of him as unfaithful.
> ...


I guess you're saying that he's going to cheat whether I do what he wants or not? Well hmmm, it's true that this guilt is really hard to deal with...

Right! I know I'm a good person and I have a lot of friends, so why should I care about whether some men would call me "low value." Anyways, my husband obviously still values me because he's still with me.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

thetiredmommy said:


> I guess you're saying that he's going to cheat whether I do what he wants or not? Well hmmm, it's true that this guilt is really hard to deal with...
> 
> Right! I know I'm a good person and I have a lot of friends, so why should I care about whether some men would call me "low value." Anyways, my husband obviously still values me because he's still with me.


Good job. Listen to the one poster who agrees with your view and gives you the validation you were looking for, and ignore the pages of disagreeing posts. That will fix your situation.

C


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## dollygal (Sep 23, 2014)

thetiredmommy said:


> I guess you're saying that he's going to cheat whether I do what he wants or not? Well hmmm, it's true that this guilt is really hard to deal with...
> 
> Right! I know I'm a good person and I have a lot of friends, so why should I care about whether some men would call me "low value." Anyways, my husband obviously still values me because he's still with me.


I'm saying him cheating is something that could happen for any number of reasons. Being hard on yourself for this reason seems unreasonable because he could have cheated without this reason.

Well it seems in most societies by virtue of being a woman you should care what guys think, say, feel, etc because you are expected to cater to such.

I wouldn't take being married as a show of him valuing you as he could be remaining just for the kid or any other reasons. I know many guys who are married and don't value their wife. Browse some sexless threads by husbands and you often get how low value they regard their wife. It may be more suited to simply only care how much you value yourself


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Dolly gal 

Let me summarize this for you:
Tired is incredibly sexist. She has made it clear that she expects her H to put her on a pedestal simply because he is the man and she is the woman. 

If you compare her schedule - which is all about her, to his schedule, which is almost all about her, you will find some frightening discrepancies. The biggest one being that she has fought a relentless battle to try to force him to give up the idea of a one hour run, once a week. 

This despite her multiple hours of Pilates and naps and so forth.

When asked what her responsibilities to him are as his wife, she RUNS away from the question.

So you have now taken a thread that is about an incredibly sexist wife whose self centered behavior is already eroding her husbands view of her, and turned it into some type of - male bashing forum. 

Men are pigs, and they cheat or don't regardless of how you treat them. 

I've been very tactful with Tired up til now, but she is so relentlessly selfish, that I'm sure she will cling to your political agenda. 

When Tired's H figures out just how little she cares about him, her cushy life will be over. 

And as for what any one of us on this thread thinks. We could be wrong. But when everyone except the outlier with a political agenda (that would be you dolly gal) says: BAD, BAD, Selfish
To the OP, there's a reason for that. 

And to be perfectly clear, her low value isn't about her dislike of blowjobs. 

It's about her incredibly selfish, self centered view of life. 




dollygal said:


> Yes really at least going by studies, surveys, polls, and research such as on the topic of fake orgasms- says otherwise.
> 
> I'm sorry you are so assumptive when nowhere did I state this was my experience. This isn't a case of projecting a singular poor experience that is out of the norm. It's a perception from observations and reading a multitude of research.


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Dolly gal
> 
> Let me summarize this for you:
> Tired is incredibly sexist. She has made it clear that she expects her H to put her on a pedestal simply because he is the man and she is the woman.
> ...


You are far more tactful than I.


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## dollygal (Sep 23, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Let me summarize this for you:
> Tired is incredibly sexist. She has made it clear that she expects her H to put her on a pedestal simply because he is the man and she is the woman.


She made clear by opinion. Unless you can show me where she stated: I expect my husband to put me on a pedestal simply because he is the man and I am the woman. To me she's LD so unless she's self-deprecating she's possibly an outlet for those who envision LDs as selfish, etc.



MEM11363 said:


> If you compare her schedule - which is all about her, to his schedule, which is almost all about her, you will find some frightening discrepancies. The biggest one being that she has fought a relentless battle to try to force him to give up the idea of a one hour run, once a week.
> 
> This despite her multiple hours of Pilates and naps and so forth.


Possibly his schedule is all about her to curry favor for sexual requests not due to wanting to be on a pedestal. Possibly his schedule is all about her because he wants it to be. Possibly his schedule is all about her because acts of service/time is how he expresses himself. Unless you know the reason it's a leap in my opinion to get 'frightening discrepancies'.vUnless her husband voiced negativity about her workout I'm not seeing a discrepancy in her wanting him to give up something that bothers him and her not giving up something that doesn't bother him. 



MEM11363 said:


> When asked what her responsibilities to him are as his wife, she RUNS away from the question.


I doubt that as I've seen her answer users questions on this thread. It may not be in the exact instant they want but there is an answer (I seem to recall she got accused of ignoring I recall for not answering a hit list of questions in an instant ). It may be more likely she's shifting through trying to address the other barrages.



MEM11363 said:


> So you have now taken a thread that is about an incredibly sexist wife whose self centered behavior is already eroding her husbands view of her, and turned it into some type of - male bashing forum.


*I haven't turned it to anything. Nowhere did I state 'Men are pigs, and they cheat or don't regardless of how you treat them.' I applied no negative labels to guys and I talked about one male's cheating and stated he possibly or could cheat regardless. *


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

*Re: Re: does this seem rigid?*



MEM11363 said:


> Dolly gal
> 
> Let me summarize this for you:
> Tired is incredibly sexist. She has made it clear that she expects her H to put her on a pedestal simply because he is the man and she is the woman.
> ...


QFT. TiredMommy, ignore this analysis to the detriment of your marriage.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Dolly,
Please read her other two threads. They are short. 

After you've read them we can continue this exchange. 





dollygal said:


> She made clear by opinion. Unless you can show me where she stated: I expect my husband to put me on a pedestal simply because he is the man and I am the woman. To me she's LD so unless she's self-deprecating she's possibly an outlet for those who envision LDs as selfish, etc.
> 
> 
> Possibly his schedule is all about her to curry favor for sexual requests not due to wanting to be on a pedestal. Possibly his schedule is all about her because he wants it to be. Possibly his schedule is all about her because acts of service/time is how he expresses himself. Unless you know the reason it's a leap in my opinion to get 'frightening discrepancies'.vUnless her husband voiced negativity about her workout I'm not seeing a discrepancy in her wanting him to give up something that bothers him and her not giving up something that doesn't bother him.
> ...


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## dollygal (Sep 23, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Dolly,
> Please read her other two threads. They are short.
> 
> After you've read them we can continue this exchange.


I have no interest in continuing to address this exchange with you. I'll stick to the OP and her concerns/requests.

I can guess that you got she's incredibly sexist and has a self-centered view by tacking on things she never stated or even mentioned.

Like how me talking about one male possibly could cheat regardless of this reason is to you male-bashing.

Like how me stating _ if he cheats then he cheats. _ = Men are pigs, and they cheat or don't regardless of how you treat them. Rather then 'he could cheat even if you did what he wanted. Cheating happens for many reasons that are possible.'


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Boy it sure is convenient that Dollygal registered so she could defend thetiredmommy's positions. It's quite a coincidence that her one track mind and obvious agenda just so happens to support the OP.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

dollygal said:


> I have no interest in continuing to address this exchange with you. I'll stick to the OP and her concerns/requests.
> 
> I can guess that you got she's incredibly sexist and has a self-centered view by tacking on things she never stated or even mentioned.
> 
> ...


Men have affairs, women have affairs. Both for a variety of reasons. 

So what's your point?

C


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

thetiredmommy said:


> I'm not ignoring your response...I'm just completely lost becaus I don't know what to say to this...



My neighborhood is full of moms who are married to wealthy professionals and executives, and you better believe said moms do their absolute best to not be voted off the island. As the token guy on the PTO, playground, etc I got to know a number of them. 

What is described above is par for the course. It's real. We're not talking Honey Boo Boo reality show...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The stuff that you believe I 'tacked on' is from her other threads. 

You seem to want to advise her without reading them. 

That is a very convenient position for you to take. 

As for your view of men, I won't bother to parse your sentences one at a time, as it's obvious you are in denial. 




dollygal said:


> I have no interest in continuing to address this exchange with you. I'll stick to the OP and her concerns/requests.
> 
> I can guess that you got she's incredibly sexist and has a self-centered view by tacking on things she never stated or even mentioned.
> 
> ...


----------



## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

Dollygal, 

If you haven't read her other threads, then please don't dismiss what MANY other posters have written here. 

She is selfish. She is sexist. She does act like she has no clue about it. 

You have no background info on her if you don't read the other threads. If you do read the other threads and still agree with her, then I guess you two can go swimming in the same creek without that paddle.


----------



## dollygal (Sep 23, 2014)

staarz21 said:


> Dollygal,
> 
> If you haven't read her other threads, then please don't dismiss what MANY other posters have written here.
> 
> ...


I'll dismiss what posters who presume to know other's inner workings and tack on things they never said or even mentioned. 

She is selfish and sexist to you. I haven't read any sexist post nor has anyone showed any. It seems to be all opinion. I get selfish as she's not doing what he wants and to me most people are selfish to some degree.

I have enough background info on the hit list from questions she's answered. No sexism from her in there.


----------



## dollygal (Sep 23, 2014)

john117 said:


> My neighborhood is full of moms who are married to wealthy professionals and executives, *and you better believe said moms do their absolute best to not be voted off the island.* As the token guy on the PTO, playground, etc I got to know a number of them.
> 
> What is described above is par for the course. It's real. We're not talking Honey Boo Boo reality show...


OP,

If you do get voted off the island it may be suited to reframe it as better that you don't have to do more compromising, sacrificing, settling, etc/whatever to retain a guy for his wealth. To me this is a prime example of why I find it better for gals to achieve their own wealth and marry financial equals or lessers to negate him having a power advantage of easily upgrading/replacing.


----------



## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

dollygal said:


> I'll dismiss what posters who presume to know other's inner workings and tack on things they never said or even mentioned.
> 
> She is selfish and sexist to you. I haven't read any sexist post nor has anyone showed any. It seems to be all opinion. I get selfish as she's not doing what he wants and to me most people are selfish to some degree.
> 
> I have enough background info on the hit list from questions she's answered. No sexism from her in there.


Seriously? 

She won't let her H do anything. He works 40 hours a week. Comes home to cook dinner and bathe the kid, put her to bed. He will even drive home from work if OP calls and says she can't handle the tantrum.

She won't let her H run for ONE hour a WEEK because she needs a nap even though she is getting 7.5 hours a sleep a night. She won't let her H have a jogging stroller to take the kid with him because her and her MOTHER agreed that it wasn't ok. 

She goes to Pilates, hangs out with friends, etc...but her H can't go out without her being p*ssed and wanting him home with an an hour or two. 

She has said ALLLLLLL of that and MORE!


If that isn't selfish - I'll stick my head up my own @ss and walk away smiling.


----------



## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

dollygal said:


> john117 said:
> 
> 
> > My neighborhood is full of moms who are married to wealthy professionals and executives, *and you better believe said moms do their absolute best to not be voted off the island.* As the token guy on the PTO, playground, etc I got to know a number of them.
> ...


But I want to work part time so I don't think we would live well if he was my lesser...


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

Bah! I got sucked into it again! Lame!!!


----------



## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

staarz21 said:


> dollygal said:
> 
> 
> > I'll dismiss what posters who presume to know other's inner workings and tack on things they never said or even mentioned.
> ...


But he doesn't come home from work if she had a tantrum. I was mad about that at first but I do understand that he can't do that.


----------



## dollygal (Sep 23, 2014)

staarz21 said:


> Seriously?
> 
> She won't let her H do anything. He works 40 hours a week. Comes home to cook dinner and bathe the kid, put her to bed. He will even drive home from work if OP calls and says she can't handle the tantrum.
> 
> ...


Excluding being tied down to me it's pretty incapable for her to 'let' ot 'not let' him do something. None of this is her not letting him do anything:


1. He works 40 hours a week......_most people have to work for a living. How is him working her not letting him do anything?_

2. Comes home to cook dinner and bathe the kid, put her to bed...._the second shift it's what many if not most wives have to do. How is him doing household/childcare duties her not letting him do anything?_

3.He will even drive home from work if OP calls and says she can't handle the tantrum..._.that's called parenting. How him calming the kid down her not letting him do anything? To me it's her taking away work hours because she's an inept parent in regards to tantrums._

She goes to Pilates, hangs out with friends, etc...but her H can't go out without her being p*ssed and wanting him home with an an hour or two. 
This is the closest example however she isn't making him do anything. He chooses to.


----------



## dollygal (Sep 23, 2014)

thetiredmommy said:


> But I want to work part time so I don't think we would live well if he was my lesser...


Then it seems your options are the typical woman: suck it up and do what he wants and act like you like it.


----------



## dollygal (Sep 23, 2014)

thetiredmommy said:


> But he doesn't come home from work if she had a tantrum. I was mad about that at first but I do understand that he can't do that.


Why can't you implement the actions he uses to resolve her tantrums?


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## dollygal (Sep 23, 2014)

Personal said:


> I think I see what you might be doing here.
> 
> Is it right to presume in reading what you have written as quoted above. That you are encouraging thetiredmommy to continue practicing her egregious marital behaviour, in order to hasten the demise of her marriage. So that her long suffering husband will be free to find a sexual partner that loves him genuinely and reciprocally?


Incorrect presumption. I'm attempting to:
- alleviate stress/care about him cheating with an if it happens it happens mindset
- alleviate guilt/remorse about her actions/words towards him (to me it's likely he's bitter/resentful about not getting what he wants so guilt/remorse is a wash)
- increase her value being based on herself not others thoughts

Just because she doesn't do what he wants doesn't mean she doesn't love him genuinely. If that were the logic she's the long suffering wife of a husband who doesn't love her genuinely and reciprocally.


----------



## dollygal (Sep 23, 2014)

Personal said:


> *Women who fake orgasm do themselves and other women no favours. *Since such behaviour limits the opportunity of having real orgasms, by giving others a false reference point as to what an orgasm is. Therefore some men and some women will think what doesn't work actually does work in bringing any partners to orgasm..


Different views.

Women who fake orgasm do themselves no favors if they seek pleasure/orgasm from sex. If they initially do and adapt for other benefits there's no drawback for her.

The other women aren't being slighted because even if the fakers didn't fake the other women would likely still have to teach him to please her.

Either way I consider a non issue as I perceive it as a waste to fake as the often male touted saying goes: 'why do women fake orgasms? because they think men care'.


----------



## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

:lol:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dollygal (Sep 23, 2014)

staarz21 said:


> Nope didn't say all of that was her not letting him do anything...at all. So since you seem to have an answer for everything, please re-read what I wrote. My post was not ALL about what he can't do...it was also what he does do and what SHE DOESN'T DO.


You stated she won't let him do anything and in the paragraph in list off things. I wasn't aware what you were listing were completely irrelevant to your claim. I thought a paragraph would have a congruent thought. This seems like you're saying the things she won't let him do.: 
_She won't let her H do anything. He works 40 hours a week. Comes home to cook dinner and bathe the kid, put her to bed. He will even drive home from work if OP calls and says she can't handle the tantrum._




staarz21 said:


> I was stating what HE DOES FOR HER. He works 40 hours a week FOR HER AND THEIR DAUGHTER. So that they may have a place to take naps....If he doesn't do this, they are out that luxury - AND a house, car, phone, electricity...etc...etc..
> He cleans the house, cooks, and bathes the kid because she does not WANT to do these things - yet she stays at home and only works part time. About 19 hours a week I think she said.


And none of that makes her selfish.



staarz21 said:


> She goes to Pilates, something she does for herself - which would be totally ok if she didn't give her H sh*t for wanting to do something for himself as well.


It is okay for her to give him sh*t about something that bothers her. Even if she does the same thing because seemingly it doesn't bother him when she does pilates. If both partners do X and it bothers one partner and not the other it's not selfish. Using that logic it's selfish for guys to want a partner that doesn't shaves when he doesn't.



staarz21 said:


> Driving home from work when a kid is throwing a tantrum and a parent is already at home is NOT parenting. It's called putting your job on the line to go deal with your kid because you wife can't handle it. He is sole provider for their family. If he gets fired, they have nothing - minus whatever she makes in 19 hours a week, which I am guessing isn't enough to pay the bills.


It's both.Some parents are better at some aspects then others and in some scenarios there's something risked to parent a child.


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## dollygal (Sep 23, 2014)

Personal said:


> Considering what you have written above, do you feel that thetiredmommy would be better served, by having transactional sex (prostitution) with her husband?
> 
> Do you believe all wives are prostitutes?


In my opinion thetiredmommy would be better served creating her own wealth. I think all relationships are transactions as for the prostitution I guess in a way a wife has sex for the transaction of fidelity and relationship. That's something done whether she wants/enjoys it as shown here few guys would be faithful and in a sexless relationship.



Personal said:


> C
> *If one is paying attention,* it really isn't difficult to bring any woman to orgasm even on a first date/one night stand.


You kind of just destroyed your own claim that faking does no favor to other women if the guy can just pay attention and bring her to orgasm.
However to me the bolded is a minority I highly doubt most guys care to pay attention the norm thought seems to be 'i'm having sex' not 'how to get her to enjoy it'.



Personal said:


> Often touted! :rofl: As a male I've never heard such a statement before.


Just because you never heard it doesn't mean it's not often touted. I know a gal who hasn't heard of Beyonce however she's fairly popular.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Yet many of us with high earning spouses would sacrifice the six figure income and six figure stress for something far simpler...


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

john117 said:


> Yet many of us with high earning spouses would sacrifice the six figure income and six figure stress for something far simpler...


You mean like four or five figure problems? Don't forget that Honey Boo Boo reference.


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## dollygal (Sep 23, 2014)

john117 said:


> Yet many of us with high earning spouses would sacrifice the six figure income and six figure stress for something far simpler...


I'm guessing you're speaking of men with high earning wives (?) considering of the women you said:


john117 said:


> My neighborhood is full of moms who are married to wealthy professionals and executives, and you better believe said moms do their absolute best to not be voted off the island.


----------



## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

dollygal said:


> In my opinion thetiredmommy would be better served creating her own wealth. I think all relationships are transactions as for the prostitution I guess in a way a wife has sex for the transaction of fidelity and relationship. That's something done whether she wants/enjoys it as shown here few guys would be faithful and in a sexless relationship.
> 
> 
> You kind of just destroyed your own claim that faking does no favor to other women if the guy can just pay attention and bring her to orgasm.
> ...


It has been my experience that a lot of women aren't that good at sex. The fact that it is relatively easy for most guys to get off gives the women a false sense that they are actually good at it...add in the fact that most guys won't tell a woman she's bad at it.


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## thefam (Sep 9, 2014)

Stay tuned for the next special guest.


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## dollygal (Sep 23, 2014)

samyeagar said:


> It has been my experience that a lot of women aren't that good at sex. The fact that it is relatively easy for most guys to get off gives the women a false sense that they are actually good at it...add in the fact that most guys won't tell a woman she's bad at it.


Comparing your experience to my observations it still seems like to me a pretty sweet setup for guys. Guys get a partner who isn't good at sex but he still gets off. Women get a selfish lazy partner who isn't good at sex and she doesn't get off.

If your experience bothers you perhaps think it likely would have been way way worse for you to be a hetero gal.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Personal said:


> Marital stress is certainly not specifically coincident with earning a six figure income.
> 
> 
> 
> My wife (who has created her own wealth) earns a six figure income with all sorts of perks thrown in. Yet despite that or perhaps because of it we are now enjoying a happy life and marriage that is not particularly stressful or complicated.



My personal and semi professional experience differs. I make a bit more than my wife but work half her hours and while it's stressful to the outsider - ever worked half the year on high visibility billion dollar type demos that have to be perfect for the CEO types and the other half working for the annual consumer electronics and trade shows ???

Yet I'm as relaxed as a cat. Most of my team is. Career women often see it differently in my experience... And stress accordingly.

My main focus is bringing in a paycheck regardless. My wife wants the glory, the recognition. Not quite same.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

dollygal said:


> Comparing your experience to my observations it still seems like to me a pretty sweet setup for guys. Guys get a partner who isn't good at sex but he still gets off. Women get a selfish lazy partner who isn't good at sex and she doesn't get off.
> 
> If your experience bothers you perhaps think it likely would have been way way worse for you to be a hetero gal.


Not so sure about this. I think a lot of guys, probably just as many as women really have no idea what great sex actually is.

One of the things that this site has really opened my eyes to is just how uneducated and misinformed a lot of women are when it comes to male sexuality.


----------



## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

samyeagar said:


> Not so sure about this. I think a lot of guys, probably just as many as women really have no idea what great sex actually is.


Oh I KNOW.


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## dollygal (Sep 23, 2014)

samyeagar said:


> Not so sure about this. I think a lot of guys, probably just as many as women really have no idea what great sex actually is.
> 
> One of the things that this site has really opened my eyes to is just how uneducated and misinformed a lot of women are when it comes to male sexuality.


I imagine the orgasm gap makes this pretty sure. You're being a bit elusive changing it from not getting off to not having great sex.


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## thefam (Sep 9, 2014)

samyeagar said:


> Not so sure about this. I think a lot of guys, probably just as many as women really have no idea what great sex actually is.
> 
> One of the things that this site has really opened my eyes to is just how uneducated and misinformed a lot of women are when it comes to male sexuality.


Sam, what would some of those misconceptions be. Not being facetious here; would truly be interested to know. I think you know my limited background on this. 

Im pretty sure this is not threadjacking as it seems like OP would benefit from what these misconceptions would be as well. Right TTM?


----------



## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

dollygal said:


> Yes really at least going by studies, surveys, polls, and research such as on the topic of fake orgasms- says otherwise.
> 
> I'm sorry you are so assumptive when nowhere did I state this was my experience. This isn't a case of projecting a singular poor experience that is out of the norm. It's a perception from observations and reading a multitude of research.


You are too agressively pursuing this line of thought for someone who has great experience herself, just read too many studies.


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## dollygal (Sep 23, 2014)

WandaJ said:


> You are too agressively pursuing this line of thought for someone who has great experience herself, just read too many studies.


I'm no more 'too aggressively' pursuing my line of thought than anyone else. In my opinion one can't read too many studies it's interesting to me the vast array and differences, subtle or blatant, in nuances of variables. Plus I prefer to base my perception on the average of many experiences within reason rather than a singular experience.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

dollygal said:


> I imagine the orgasm gap makes this pretty sure. You're being a bit elusive changing it from not getting off to not having great sex.


An orgasm doth not great sex make...or even good for that matter.


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## dollygal (Sep 23, 2014)

samyeagar said:


> An orgasm doth not great sex make...or even good for that matter.


I didn't say it did.

I did say you changed the standard of there being many women who are bad at sex from being based on 'getting off' to 'great sex'.

It seems when it comes to male complaints are they don't have good/great sex while female complaints are that they don't even get off.Again still seems like to me a pretty sweet setup for guys when their issue is sex isn't good/great it could have been way worse if they were female.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

thefam said:


> Sam, what would some of those misconceptions be. Not being facetious here; would truly be interested to know. I think you know my limited background on this.
> 
> Im pretty sure this is not threadjacking as it seems like OP would benefit from what these misconceptions would be as well. Right TTM?


Some of the biggies that pop to mind, and unfortunately there are men who perpetuate them...just as frustrating as the women who perpetuate things about women...

That men are visual...with the implication that the mental aspects don't matter as much.

That men want sex all the time, that it's all they think about.

That men want porn stars in bed.

That men get hard with a change in the breeze.

Yes, there are plenty of men who ARE just like the stereotypes, just as there are plenty of women who are like the female stereotypes, but there are plenty who aren't.

As I've said before, it's fine to talk of generalizations and stereotypes as an intellectual exercise as applied to a population as a whole, but when it comes to a relationship, one is better served to forget what they thought they knew, and focus on the individuals in the relationship.


----------



## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

dollygal said:


> I didn't say it did.
> 
> I did say you changed the standard of there being many women who are bad at sex from being based on 'getting off' to 'great sex'.
> 
> It seems when it comes to male complaints are they don't have good/great sex while female complaints are that they don't even get off.Again still seems like to me a pretty sweet setup for guys when their issue is sex isn't good/great it could have been way worse if they were female.


I still stand by what I said about a lot of women, likely as many as men, who are just bad at sex, orgasm or no.

For a lot of men, sex with a woman who has the attitude that all she has to do is show up and provide her body, not even in a duty sex, or resentful sort of way, just the attitude that she doesn't have to do much but be there...there are a lot of men who would rather have no sex than have sex with a sexually lazy woman. One of the big reasons I have never liked the implications of the phrase "Getting lucky..."


----------



## dollygal (Sep 23, 2014)

samyeagar said:


> I still stand by what I said about a lot of women, likely as many as men, who are just bad at sex, orgasm or no.
> 
> For a lot of men, sex with a woman who has the attitude that all she has to do is show up and provide her body, not even in a duty sex, or resentful sort of way, just the attitude that she doesn't have to do much but be there...there are a lot of men who would rather have no sex than have sex with a sexually lazy woman. One of the big reasons I have never liked the implications of the phrase "Getting lucky..."


I still stand by what I say it likely could have been way worse if he was female since he wouldn't even get an orgasm. So as lacking as a non enthusiastic participating partner is he's at the least getting a orgasmic/pleasurable sex. That really doesn't seem to be said when women have bad sex.


----------



## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

dollygal said:


> This thread goes much beyond that it seems for those keen on attacking the OP and her tastes. In such a case I'll stick to the OP.
> 
> 
> There's no bait to take. If you want argument you can look elsewhere.
> ...


My reading comprehension is quite fine thank you. I still maintain that your prior post came off as someone doing their best impression of throwing a dictionary in the blender and seeing what comes out. Hence, “word salad”. I’m afraid you won’t be able to change my mind on this, you can try but you may find you arguing to yourself on that issue. 

I don’t hold a “poor menz” attitude. Nor do I take a “poor womenz” stance either. Although it’s curious you would say that as it seems to me that you have a strong male bias. In my mind, men and women need to take responsibility for themselves. In addition to maintaining a strong culture of empathy within their marriages for their spouse's physical and emotional needs -- whether those needs are sexual or otherwise. The posts I have read by you in this thread do not seem to support the OP taking responsibility for herself and her actions or her lack of empathy and consideration to her husband. 

Further, throughout your posts in other threads and this one, I see you posting a lot about the inequality of sexual experiences when it comes to enjoyment of sex between men and women. I have not yet read you say anything about what women can do to try to solve it.


----------



## dollygal (Sep 23, 2014)

Miss Taken said:


> My reading comprehension is quite fine thank you. I still maintain that your prior post came off as someone doing their best impression of throwing a dictionary in the blender and seeing what comes out. Hence, “word salad”. I’m afraid you won’t be able to change my mind on this, you can try but you may find you arguing to yourself on that issue.
> 
> I don’t hold a “poor menz” attitude. Nor do I take a “poor womenz” stance either. Although it’s curious you would say that as it seems to me that you have a strong male bias. In my mind, men and women need to take responsibility for themselves. In addition to maintaining a strong culture of empathy within their marriages for their spouse's physical and emotional needs -- whether those needs are sexual or otherwise. The posts I have read by you in this thread do not seem to support the OP taking responsibility for herself and her actions or her lack of empathy and consideration to her husband.
> 
> Further, throughout your posts in other threads and this one, I see you posting a lot about the inequality of sexual experiences when it comes to enjoyment of sex between men and women. I have not yet read you say anything about what women can do to try to solve it.


The posts you've read by me don't support the OP taking responsibility for herself and her actions or her lack of empathy and consideration to her husband he way you think she should- do what her husband wants.

I post a lot about the inequality of sexual experiences when it is the thread topic or it's brought up. Your reading is not just fine as I've said what women can do to try to solve it the inequality of sexual experiences.


----------



## greenfern (Oct 20, 2012)

thefam said:


> Sam, what would some of those misconceptions be. Not being facetious here; would truly be interested to know. I think you know my limited background on this.
> 
> Im pretty sure this is not threadjacking as it seems like OP would benefit from what these misconceptions would be as well. Right TTM?


Hi thefam, I'm probably one of these women that Sam is talking about. I was always a very active & enthusiastic sexual partner but I didn't realize that men were just as nuanced as women in what they like sexually. 

For example my current partner actually prefers not to orgasm, at least not every time. In reading about his sexual preferences I realized that just being enthusiastic is not enough, you have to actually really pay attention to the person you are with (male or female) both in & out of the bedroom, to really sexually arouse the person you are with.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

dollygal said:


> I still stand by what I say it likely could have been way worse if he was female since he wouldn't even get an orgasm. So as lacking as a non enthusiastic participating partner is he's at the least getting a orgasmic/pleasurable sex. That really doesn't seem to be said when women have bad sex.


And right here you are equating good/pleasurable sex with orgasm, and I disagree with such equivocation. One does not necessarily depend on or lead to the other.


----------



## dollygal (Sep 23, 2014)

samyeagar said:


> *And right here you are equating good/pleasurable sex with orgasm,* and I disagree with such equivocation. One does not necessarily depend on or lead to the other.


And right here you jump to conclusions. I stated orgasmic/pleasurable meaning 'orgasmic or pleasurable' or 'orgasmic and pleasurable'.


----------



## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

dollygal said:


> And right here you jump to conclusions. I stated orgasmic/pleasurable meaning 'orgasmic or pleasurable' or 'orgasmic and pleasurable'.


Well, since you not correlating the two then, lack of orgasm on the woman's part doesn't necessarily translate into the man getting the better end of the deal then.


----------



## dollygal (Sep 23, 2014)

samyeagar said:


> Well, since you not correlating the two then, lack of orgasm on the woman's part doesn't necessarily translate into the man getting the better end of the deal then.


Now you're jumping logic. Lack of orgasm on the woman's part does seem to translate into the man getting the better end of the deal. The sex was orgasmic/pleasurable for him but not her. He got the better deal however that doesn't mean the sex was good/great for him or her.

The presence of orgasm doesn't necessarily translate into good/great sex it does seem to show who got the better end of the deal.


It's akin to this:
How much you make doesn't equate to how good a job is. That doesn't mean when it comes to two people with the same bad job you can't guess who got the better deal if one is making $50000 and the other is making $1000.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

dollygal said:


> Now you're jumping logic. *Lack of orgasm on the woman's part does seem to translate into the man getting the better end of the deal. The sex was orgasmic/pleasurable for him but not her.* He got the better deal however that doesn't mean the sex was good/great for him or her.
> 
> The presence of orgasm doesn't necessarily translate into good/great sex it does seem to show who got the better end of the deal.


So we are back full circle...lack of orgasm on her part means it was not orgasmic/pleasurable for her...you just directly tied orgasm to pleasurable sex.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> I still stand by what I said about a lot of women, likely as many as men, who are just bad at sex, orgasm or no.
> 
> For a lot of men, sex with a woman who has the attitude that all she has to do is show up and provide her body, not even in a duty sex, or resentful sort of way, just the attitude that she doesn't have to do much but be there...there are a lot of men who would rather have no sex than have sex with a sexually lazy woman. One of the big reasons I have never liked the implications of the phrase "Getting lucky..."



If this were true, why then do so many women have sex for years and years before they actually have a partnered orgasm? I know of only ONE woman IRL who experienced partnered orgasms from the get go.

And yet boys and men get off at almost every single encounter. A woman CAN just lay there and the man will get off. A woman can be a lazy lover and the man will still get off. It's not until actual emotions (and years of sexual experiences) enter the picture that a man notices something is missing from his sexual encounters. And that missing piece is the woman's authentic emotional response and participation.

That's where nearly every man here at TAM is. They're looking for the missing piece and slowly coming to see how it's been missing for a long time but they didn't make that connection.





samyeagar said:


> An orgasm doth not great sex make...or even good for that matter.


I beg to differ. Several orgasms are the requirement for great sex and at least one is required for good sex!





samyeagar said:


> And right here you are equating good/pleasurable sex with orgasm, and I disagree with such equivocation. One does not necessarily depend on or lead to the other.


Yes, yes it does.

The difference is that a woman can feel emotionally connected to her man through orgasmless sex. But she cannot agree that good sex doesn't include a good orgasm.

I defy you to show me 10 men who will agree that they can have good or even great sex without ejaculating. They would classify it as dysfunctional sex and believe there to be a problem. Yet women go for years and years having dysfunctional sex and even console themselves thinking they, at least, have made an emotional connection with and pleased their man.

Don't ever see that attitude from men....ever.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Perhaps you all could take your thread jack to your own thread?

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dollygal (Sep 23, 2014)

samyeagar said:


> So we are back full circle...lack of orgasm on her part means it was not orgasmic/pleasurable for her...*you just directly tied orgasm to pleasurable sex.*


So you are back to misreading. I didn't tie orgasm to pleasurable sex I just told you orgasmic/pleasurable means 'orgasm or pleasurable' or 'orgasmic and pleasurable'.

Lack of orgasm on her part clearly means it wasn't orgasmic for her. That's a fact. 

I'm saying:
He orgasmed she didn't so sex was orgasmic for him. When it comes to pleasure it's:
he got pleasure
she got pleasure
he and she got pleasure

Hence why I stated 'The sex was orgasmic/pleasurable for him but not her'. I know she didn't get an orgasm and pleasure hence the 'but not her'. I don't know if either of them got pleasure hence the 'orgasmic/pleasurable'. I do know 'he got an orgasm + 2 chances of pleasure' vs 'she got no orgasm + 2 chances of pleasure'. So even if they both got pleasure he got the better deal via having an orgasm.


----------



## greenfern (Oct 20, 2012)

PBear said:


> Perhaps you all could take your thread jack to your own thread?
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ok point taken! Thetiredmommy, is there any update from you? How are things going, I think you were planning on that rain check you gave your husband, have you had that?


----------



## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

dollygal said:


> The posts you've read by me don't support the OP taking responsibility for herself and her actions or her lack of empathy and consideration to her *husband he way you think she should- do what her husband wants*.


This is an assumption of my stance on this issue and not rooted in any facts. Next.



dollygal said:


> I post a lot about the inequality of sexual experiences when it is the thread topic or it's brought up. Your reading is not just fine as I've said what women can do to try to solve it the inequality of sexual experiences.


As for reading comprehension, it looks like you missed the part about asking you what you believe women should take accountability/responsibility for, you've failed to address this. 

I'm pretty sure I've read the majority of your posts as there aren't that many yet. I have not come across any solutions from you other than the suggestion to use sex as a business transaction like a prostitute would or masturbate on her own. Still as to repairing the sexual relationship and quality of sex between both parties, I haven't seen anything fruitful on your end in terms of advice of what a woman can/should do to improve the sex for her. That would be interesting to hear. If you don't want to threadjack (not that it seems to be an issue for you) you're welcome to PM the links to the threads and/or quotes where you've done so and I'd be glad to read them. 

In other words, proof or it didn't happen.


----------



## dollygal (Sep 23, 2014)

Miss Taken said:


> This is an assumption of my stance on this issue and not rooted in any facts. Next.


It's not an assumption. Clearly you want his wants addressed otherwise her not addressing them wouldn't be seen as 'a lack of empathy and consideration to her husband'.



Miss Taken said:


> As for reading comprehension, it looks like you missed the part about asking you what you believe women should take accountability/responsibility for, you've failed to address this.
> 
> I'm pretty sure I've read the majority of your posts as there aren't that many yet. I have not come across any solutions from you other than the suggestion to use sex as a business transaction like a prostitute would or masturbate on her own. Still as to repairing the sexual relationship and quality of sex between both parties, I haven't seen anything fruitful on your end in terms of advice of what a woman can/should do to improve the sex for her. If you don't want to threadjack (not that it seems to be an issue for you) you're welcome to PM the links to the threads and/or quotes where you've done so and I'd be glad to read them.
> 
> In other words, proof or it didn't happen.


As for reading comprehension, it looks like you missed the part where no one asked me what I believe women should take accountability/responsibility for. They've asked the OP not me. 

My suggestion was to 'adapt for other benefits' to/from sex. Personal took it as being a business transaction like a prostitute. If you see focusing on getting something from sex other than an orgasm/pleasure as being transactional or prostitution that's on you. I know many wives who get a connection from sex and don't see themselves as a prostitute. When sex doesn't result in an orgasm/pleasure and that's what she wants really the only way she can 'improve the sex' is to stop wanting that or want something else. 

You're the one who instigated taking it as 'bait' and something to rail against. You've already shown proof albeit in your skewed misconstruction. :rofl:


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> Well, since you not correlating the two then, lack of orgasm on the woman's part doesn't necessarily translate into the man getting the better end of the deal then.


Viewing sexuality as having ends of which one might get the better is a death knell to a great sex life out of the box. If both aren't good, giving and game, then POOOEY. I'm out.


----------



## U.E. McGill (Nov 27, 2013)

dollygal said:


> OP,
> 
> If you do get voted off the island it may be suited to reframe it as better that you don't have to do more compromising, sacrificing, settling, etc/whatever to retain a guy for his wealth. To me this is a prime example of why I find it better for gals to achieve their own wealth and marry financial equals or lessers to negate him having a power advantage of easily upgrading/replacing.



In fact it would probably hasten the transition. How many men on this board alone are afraid of divorce rape, so they stay in dead marriages?

The fact is in many states, a woman (primarily) holds a much bigger bargaining chip when there's a large earning inequity between her and her husband. Throw kids in and it's a huge perverse incentive to stay in a shîtty marriage. 

You assume correctly that a man wouldn't 'coerce' his wife into things he wants or needs, because in fact, it's easier just to walk away. 

There was a new report out where there's now more unmarried people than married. Why do you think that is? I think for men, it's because the system is clearly stacked against them. 

TIREDMOMMY What does this have to with you? Your husband is at a point where he is clearly trying to fix the marriage. He also is likely no longer afraid of the outcome of divorce. You've lost a major advantage. When a man isn't afraid of eating speghettio's and living in an apartment by himself, it's time for action.


----------



## dollygal (Sep 23, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> Viewing sexuality as having ends of which one might get the better is a death knell to a great sex life out of the box. If both aren't good, giving and game, then POOOEY. I'm out.


It's not the death knell to a great sex life out of the box if one also ensures they get as much as their partner. A person can be GGG while viewing sexuality as having ends of which one might get the better.


----------



## dollygal (Sep 23, 2014)

U.E. McGill said:


> In fact it would probably hasten the transition. How many men on this board alone are afraid of divorce rape, so they stay in dead marriages?
> 
> The fact is in many states, a woman (primarily) holds a much bigger bargaining chip when there's a large earning inequity between her and her husband. Throw kids in and it's a huge perverse incentive to stay in a shîtty marriage.
> 
> ...


Plent on this board stay out of fear of a divorce rape which is why I advise the OP to not rely on him staying as an indication of him valuing her.

I think there's more unmarried people because generally it seems guys get the better end of a marriage and women get the better end of the end of a marriage.

The OP's husband is at the point where he's trying to ensure he gets what he wants- that's not really fixing the marriage other than fixing for him. 

I agree it's time for action and a suited one is disassociation and detachment so if he cheats he cheats and if he leaves he leaves. She seems to have no interest doing what he wants then he has in doing what she wants.


----------



## U.E. McGill (Nov 27, 2013)

dollygal said:


> ....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Except when we get what we need (even from a selfish point) it makes the marriage better. He clearly is not getting what he needs. 

You can't use the word "want" and "need" interchangeably. Men show and feel loved through sex. That's a need.

The other side is, we can only fix ourselves. When we are our best in our marriage, especially men, we are able to give the most. This comes from working on our self first. 

The OP's husband is trying to fix the marriage the best way. It seems you nor TTM recognize that.


----------



## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

greenfern said:


> Ok point taken! Thetiredmommy, is there any update from you? How are things going, I think you were planning on that rain check you gave your husband, have you had that?


Well, we did have sex last night and I think he was really happy. Actually we were both happy. There was nothing on our DVR, but instead of browsing Netflix to find something, I gave my H that special "glance" and it went from there. I tried to not rush it and he explored my body for a while before we actually had intercourse. Then we just laid together for a while. I'm hoping people see this as a good update.


----------



## dollygal (Sep 23, 2014)

U.E. McGill said:


> Except when we get what we need (even from a selfish point) it makes the marriage better. He clearly is not getting what he needs.
> 
> You can't use the word "want" and "need" interchangeably. Men show and feel loved through sex. That's a need.
> 
> ...


I'm not using 'want' and 'need' interchangeably. A need is something you will die without. He won't die if he doesn't get the quantity/quality of sex he requires to feel loved. I omit show as I don't see much showing of love in sex with someone who isn't interested, doesn't desire it, and/or doesn't enjoy it.

The OP's husband is trying to fix the marriage for his wants in the best way that gets what he wants. Saying otherwise is like claiming TMZ is trying to fix the marriage the best way.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

It is a great update


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## dollygal (Sep 23, 2014)

thetiredmommy said:


> Wel*l, we did have sex last night and I think he was really happy. Actually we were both happy. * There was nothing on our DVR, but instead of browsing Netflix to find something, I gave my H that special "glance" and it went from there. I tried to not rush it and he explored my body for a while before we actually had intercourse. Then we just laid together for a while. I'm hoping people see this as a good update.


Do you know why you were happy? Is there any interest in recreating that to suit the quantity/quality he wants?


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## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

U.E. McGill said:


> Except when we get what we need (even from a selfish point) it makes the marriage better. He clearly is not getting what he needs.
> 
> You can't use the word "want" and "need" interchangeably. Men show and feel loved through sex. That's a need.
> 
> ...


Can I just say that I don't really agree with everything Dolly is saying? She makes him sound mean and insensitive. He's not.

I mean I don't like all the changes, but I kinda understand them. I think what I've been trying to say is that I'm having a hard time with the change because I don't do well with change anyways. Also, that I know that I'm taking a while to make changes in myself and my husband is changing or growing at a really fast pace.


----------



## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

thetiredmommy said:


> Well, we did have sex last night and I think he was really happy. Actually we were both happy. There was nothing on our DVR, but instead of browsing Netflix to find something, I gave my H that special "glance" and it went from there. I tried to not rush it and he explored my body for a while before we actually had intercourse. Then we just laid together for a while. I'm hoping people see this as a good update.


Very good update, I think! 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

*Re: Re: does this seem rigid?*



thetiredmommy said:


> I mean I don't like all the changes, but I kinda understand them. I think what I've been trying to say is that I'm having a hard time with the change because I don't do well with change anyways. Also, that I know that I'm taking a while to make changes in myself and my husband is changing or growing at a really fast pace.


This is to be expected because he was the uncomfortable one for a period of time.

You are just now experiencing the discomfort.


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## dollygal (Sep 23, 2014)

thetiredmommy said:


> Can I just say that I don't really agree with everything Dolly is saying? *She makes him sound mean and insensitive. He's not.*
> 
> I mean I don't like all the changes, but I kinda understand them. I think what I've been trying to say is that I'm having a hard time with the change because I don't do well with change anyways. Also, that I know that I'm taking a while to make changes in myself and my husband is changing or growing at a really fast pace.


How did I make him sound mean and insensitive when the only behavior of his I've stated is:
- he's trying to get what he wants
- if he cheats he cheats (trying to alleviate your concern after a barrage of posts on how he's cheating or will cheat on you with implications of how you deserve it)


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Dollygal has not made your husband insensitive. However, she chooses divisive and inflammatory language while expressing her opinions. FWIW, this can obfuscate her point by raising the receivers emotions before they even have a chance to digest her point.


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## U.E. McGill (Nov 27, 2013)

dollygal said:


> I'm not using 'want' and 'need' interchangeably. A need is something you will die without. He won't die if he doesn't get the quantity/quality of sex he requires to feel loved. I omit show as I don't see much showing of love in sex with someone who isn't interested, doesn't desire it, and/or doesn't enjoy it.
> 
> The OP's husband is trying to fix the marriage for his wants in the best way that gets what he wants. Saying otherwise is like claiming TMZ is trying to fix the marriage the best way.



You don't understand the nature of men. I'm giving you awesome insight but you choose to minimize it. 

Sex in marriage is a NEED for most 'normative' men. Deny it, ration it, or dole it out as a reward and you will see a man wither and die as if you denied him food or water. 

A need in the context of a marriage is something that will keep the marriage alive. Funny how you use words like "Herero-normative" and other "general" and "averaging" terms, but then resort to extremes like need is "life requirement"

There lies, damn lies, and statistics.


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## dollygal (Sep 23, 2014)

farsidejunky said:


> Dollygal has not made your husband insensitive. However, she chooses divisive and inflammatory language while expressing her opinions. FWIW, this can obfuscate her point by raising the receivers emotions before they even have a chance to digest her point.


I think it's more that others read inflammatory language.

I state 'if he cheats he cheats' and a certain user gets 'mens are pigs and they cheat regardless of how you treat them'. That is taking him possibly cheating to he will cheat because he's a male. 

I state a woman can adapt to other benefits from/to sex than an orgasm and a certain user gets sex is transactional and women are prostitutes. That is taking other benefits to be something negative.


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## dollygal (Sep 23, 2014)

U.E. McGill said:


> You don't understand the nature of men. I'm giving you awesome insight but you choose to minimize it.
> 
> Sex in marriage is a NEED for most 'normative' men. Deny it, ration it, or dole it out as a reward and you will see a man wither and die as if you denied him food or water.
> 
> ...


I'm not minimizing the insight I'm minimizing your claim I'm using the word interchangeably. 

I'm aware a guy can feel it's a need but it is technically not so I'm not being interchangeable. It's not me being interchangeable for me to say his desire sex for whatever reason is a want not a need.

Egh no the guy won't wither and die from sex being denied, rationed, or doled as a reward. The marriage most likely will.

It's not funny in my opinion as my word usage shows my tendency to be technical. I'm not resorting to extremes you claimed I was being interchangeable but I'm not.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Spare me the minimization; it is deliberate and you know it. You are intelligent enough to realize the impact on your audience.


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## dollygal (Sep 23, 2014)

farsidejunky said:


> Spare me the minimization; it is deliberate and you know it. You are intelligent enough to realize the impact on your audience.


It is deliberate that I minimize your claim I'm being interchangeable with 'want' and 'need' because I'm not. 

I'm intelligent enough to realize the emotional irrational defensiveness impact on a certain audience.

I'm aware that many will be affronted to be told what they regard as a need is not technically a need as they can survive without it. I'm now aware that many tack on their own issues and will take that as I'm saying they have to survive without it.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

I am discussing your choice in language only. UEM spoke to needs.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

thetiredmommy said:


> Well, we did have sex last night and I think he was really happy. Actually we were both happy. There was nothing on our DVR, but instead of browsing Netflix to find something, I gave my H that special "glance" and it went from there. I tried to not rush it and he explored my body for a while before we actually had intercourse. Then we just laid together for a while. I'm hoping people see this as a good update.



Now, assuming the experience was mutually enjoyable, what would be the reason for not sharing that experience on a more regular basis?


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

dollygal said:


> It's not the death knell to a great sex life out of the box if one also ensures they get as much as their partner. A person can be GGG while viewing sexuality as having ends of which one might get the better.


Nope. I just don't agree. I think getting the better is the polar opposite of being gGg.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

dollygal said:


> It's not an assumption. Clearly you want his wants addressed otherwise her not addressing them wouldn't be seen as 'a lack of empathy and consideration to her husband'.


Clearly, that's not my complete answer and you have no way of reading my or anyone else's mind so yes it is an assumption on your part. 



dollygal said:


> As for reading comprehension, it looks like you missed the part where no one asked me what I believe women should take accountability/responsibility for. They've asked the OP not me.


LOL. Are you for realsies? :slap:

When I wrote this in my reply to you:



Miss Taken said:


> The posts I have read by you in this thread do not seem to support the OP taking responsibility for herself and her actions or her lack of empathy and consideration to her husband.
> 
> Further, throughout your posts in other threads and this one, I see you posting a lot about the inequality of sexual experiences when it comes to enjoyment of sex between men and women. I have not yet read you say anything about what women can do to try to solve it.


I was inviting you, "dollygal", not the OP, and not other posters but to attempt to make myself perfectly clear, Y-O-U to discuss it. 




dollygal said:


> My suggestion was to 'adapt for other benefits' to/from sex. Personal took it as being a business transaction like a prostitute.


I wasn't talking just about this thread and/or Personal's take on what you said in this thread. Although it did sound kind of "prostitutey" until you elaborated what you meant on that point. I brought it up because I've seen you post simiar notions in another thread: For instance this quote.



dollygal said:


> With the ones that didn't hate their husbands they just started using it as a transaction. If sex regardless of her interest is how he loves her I guess the wives saw no reason to capitalize on it. :smthumbup:


Can you clarify what you meant by this? How did they capitalize on having sex with their husbands? 



dollygal said:


> If you see focusing on getting something from sex other than an orgasm/pleasure as being transactional or prostitution that's on you.


Would really depend on what they were getting or intending to get from their husband's from having sex. I have heard women brag about how they use sex to get their husband's to do things for them such as buy a new house or car... Having sex in exchange for money or material goods is similar to prostituting... the only difference is that they're married instead of a random John and hooker. 



dollygal said:


> I know many wives who get a connection from sex and don't see themselves as a prostitute.


And herein lies the straw-man, (may he rest in peace). Obviously I wasn't equating having sex regardless of orgasm because it gives them a feeling of connection to prostitution.



dollygal said:


> When sex doesn't result in an orgasm/pleasure and that's what she wants really the only way she can 'improve the sex' is to stop wanting that or want something else.


Okay, so here's finally an answer to what I had asked you. It isn't adequate in my opinion... but it's an answer at least. So thanks for that.



dollygal said:


> You're the one who instigated taking it as 'bait' and something to rail against.


This was several posts ago but since you keep bringing it up, it seems to have bothered you a lot. If so, I apologize if my using the word "bait" has hurt your 'feels' in anyway. 



dollygal said:


> You've already shown proof albeit in your skewed misconstruction. :rofl:


I know this was intended to be a barb but I'm having a really hard time taking offense by _you _thinking that _I'm_ skewed. I find you fascinatingly ironic. :smthumbup:


----------



## dollygal (Sep 23, 2014)

Miss Taken said:


> Clearly, that's not my complete answer and you have no way of reading my or anyone else's mind so yes it is an assumption on your part.


I didn't state a complete answer so no it's not an assumption on my part.



Miss Taken said:


> LOL. Are you for realsies? :slap:
> 
> When I wrote this in my reply to you:
> 
> I was inviting you, "dollygal", not the OP, and not other posters but to attempt to make myself perfectly clear, Y-O-U to discuss it.


Are you for realsies there is no question in that post. A question is usually followed by a '?'. Your post reads more like stating I didn't do something then inviting me to. 
'I have not yet read you say anything about what women can do to try to solve it.' /= 'What can women do to try to solve it? or requesting I post such'



Miss Taken said:


> I wasn't talking just about this thread and/or Personal's take on what you said in this thread. Although it did sound kind of "prostitutey" until you elaborated what you meant on that point. I brought it up because I've seen you post simiar notions in another thread: For instance this quote.


I post similar notions because my mindset is if you can't get what you want from sex either change what you want or change why you have sex. That quote isn't me giving a solution.



Miss Taken said:


> Can you clarify what you meant by this? How did they capitalize on having sex with their husbands?


I thought it was pretty clear the women could not get the love they wanted from sex with their husband so they made it a loveless act to them. The transaction varied from shopping trip, vacations, etc. Something she could do to make herself feel loved or unused.

Though maybe it's not clear because you missed:


dollygal said:


> *This hatred grew when each and every time their husbands would talk about how sex is how she shows him love because they would fester with the thought that him shoving himself in her with no regard to her pleasure or desire is how he lives. They thought their husband was prioritizing himself and expecting her to prioritize him without any inclination of a sincere effort to treat her with some kind of concern and caring.
> 
> With the ones that didn't hate their husbands they just started using it as a transaction. If sex regardless of her interest is how he loves her I guess the wives saw no reason to capitalize on it. :smthumbup:*





Miss Taken said:


> And herein lies the straw-man, (may he rest in peace). Obviously I wasn't equating having sex regardless of orgasm because it gives them a feeling of connection to prostitution.


It's not a strawman. You stated: ' I have not come across any solutions from you other than the suggestion to use sex as a business transaction like a prostitute would or masturbate on her own.' I haven't given the solution to use sex as a business transaction like a prostitute would. I have stated this is what some women did to resolve their husband hatred in a thread asking what happened.

Nice exit on proving your claim wasn't true. I stated what some wives did nowhere did I give it as a solution.


----------



## U.E. McGill (Nov 27, 2013)

dollygal said:


> It is deliberate that I minimize your claim I'm being interchangeable with 'want' and 'need' because I'm not.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well your technical ability has left you lacking in reading comprehension. Yes, we all live by the rule of 3's for sure.

But a marriage has needs, and your answer ignores that aspect. Yeah can it survive without intimacy? Yes. Can I hook you up to life support and drip infuse you with only the bare minimum because that it what you need? Surely not. That's not surviving. 

If our needs are purely physical than just skip marriage all together. Surely that's not a need either?

Mince words all you want. The meaning is the same. I am an engineer and recognize when someone is giving me a complicated answer to a question I didn't ask.


----------



## I Don't Know (Oct 8, 2013)

dollygal said:


> Are you for realsies there is no question in that post. A question is usually followed by a '?'. Your post reads more like stating I didn't do something *then* inviting me to.
> 'I have not yet read you say anything about what women can do to try to solve it.' /= 'What can women do to try to solve it? or requesting I post


I find it particularly funny that while criticizing punctuation and claiming that the lack of a question mark absolutely means it was a statement and not an invitation, you use the wrong word making your reply mean she stated you didn't do something and proceeded to invite you to do so.

FWIW, I believe every one here gets the general meaning of others posts regardless of grammar and punctuation. When you insist on using absolutely perfect phrasing, you are making it impossible for anyone to have an exchange with you. Maybe that's what you want. IDK.


----------



## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

A lack of sex might not kill you but a good, fulfilling sex life may add years to your life.

Sex Adds Years to Your Life

We don't _need _to live longer I suppose but many of us would like to. I'd also add that in my _subjective _opinion, a life filled with satisfying sex is happier and more worth living than the alternative. 




NobodySpecial said:


> Nope. I just don't agree. I think getting the better is the polar opposite of being gGg.


:iagree:

As to sexual satisfaction and inequality. I don't doubt that men tend to orgasm more often in general and are generally more satisfied during sex than their wives or ONS's. So I don't doubt the numbers but you can count me out of them. I had great sex (as usual) last night, and came five times. Him, only once. This is very typical for us. We both felt more connected to each other both during the sex and afterwards. But given that my orgasm count, was higher last night and it is generally higher every time we do have sex, I wonder who gets the shorter end of the stick there? I think if he thinks that he does, based on the fact that I do get more out of the actual sex than he does rejection would set in. Thankfully he doesn't and he gets satisfaction out of giving me those O's. 



thetiredmommy said:


> Well, we did have sex last night and I think he was really happy. Actually we were both happy. There was nothing on our DVR, but instead of browsing Netflix to find something, I gave my H that special "glance" and it went from there. I tried to not rush it and he explored my body for a while before we actually had intercourse. Then we just laid together for a while. I'm hoping people see this as a good update.


This is a great update. What's especially nice to hear is that you were also happy and comfortable with it.



thetiredmommy said:


> Can I just say that I don't really agree with everything Dolly is saying? She makes him sound mean and insensitive. He's not.
> 
> I mean I don't like all the changes, but I kinda understand them. I think what I've been trying to say is that I'm having a hard time with the change because I don't do well with change anyways. Also, that I know that I'm taking a while to make changes in myself and my husband is changing or growing at a really fast pace.


Our 2x4's do not negate the fact that we all want you to be gentle and kind to yourself. What we were/are asking is that you are also gentle and kind and considerate to the needs of your husband. It sounds like you are working on it and that's what matters. Don't knock yourself because you are just getting started and change is hard... but keep going. .


----------



## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Miss Taken said:


> A lack of sex might not kill you but a good, fulfilling sex life may add years to your life.
> 
> Sex Adds Years to Your Life
> 
> ...


This describes the entirety of my sex life. I have had sex with three women. All three were highly orgasmic, and I would put my partnered orgasm ratio at about 5:1 in favor of the women. Is that because they were selfish lovers? Nope...simple biology. Am I resentful or hurt by that, or feel like I am getting the short end of the stick? Nope. Physically, have my partners received more physical pleasure than me? Almost definitely. It has taken my wife a lot of effort to convince me that things like stand alone blow jobs are perfectly fine, and that she actually desires giving them, in part to help ensure that I am coming close to what she feels from me...the funny thing is, I have never once even asked her for a bj...

About TTM's update...it sounds as if she is softening a bit towards what her husband is trying to communicate, and the self centeredness is thawing. That is great news.


----------



## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

dollygal said:


> I didn't state a complete answer so no it's not an assumption on my part.
> 
> 
> Are you for realsies there is no question in that post. A question is usually followed by a '?'. Your post reads more like stating I didn't do something then inviting me to.
> ...


dollygal,

I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish here but we're both thread-jacking in continuing this convo. (My bad for participating in this exchange as long as I have). Further that you're just arguing for argument's sake with a strong need to be right. So if you want that bag so badly, you can have it. 

Lest this turn into yet another post of me debating straw-man's and arguing over the technicalities, punctuation, common usage and definitions of words and snide remarks. Instead of addressing what I've asked (regardless of my use of question marks). 

Anyway, I'm getting off of this merry-go-round, you can keep spinning all you like but you'll have to ride alone. 

Peace


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## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

samyeagar said:


> About TTM's update...it sounds as if she is softening a bit towards what her husband is trying to communicate, and the self centeredness is thawing. That is great news.


Thank you. I really am trying. I know that I've been challenging for a lot of people, but I do love my husband. And I guess just as important, it was fun! I'm grateful that he is very considerate in bed and makes sure that I am enjoying it, too.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

thetiredmommy said:


> Thank you. I really am trying. I know that I've been challenging for a lot of people, but I do love my husband. And I guess just as important, it was fun! I'm grateful that he is very considerate in bed and makes sure that I am enjoying it, too.


It is so vitally important for both partners to realize that doing for their partner in a loving way does not take away from the giver. Marriage is not a zero sum game...until one partner takes everything from the other.


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## dollygal (Sep 23, 2014)

U.E. McGill said:


> Well your technical ability has left you lacking in reading comprehension. Yes, we all live by the rule of 3's for sure.
> 
> But a marriage has needs, and your answer ignores that aspect. Yeah can it survive without intimacy? Yes. Can I hook you up to life support and drip infuse you with only the bare minimum because that it what you need? Surely not. That's not surviving.
> 
> ...


My reading comprehension isn't lacking. Yours seem to be as my answer doesn't ignore a marriage has needs. Recall: 'Egh no the guy won't wither and die from sex being denied, rationed, or doled as a reward. The marriage most likely will.'

I'm not mincing words. I'm responding to your likely emotional claim I'm using want/need interchangeably for a guys regard to sex because you felt I was implying what he wants is lesser because it's not a need.


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## dollygal (Sep 23, 2014)

I Don't Know said:


> I find it particularly funny that while criticizing punctuation and claiming that the lack of a question mark absolutely means it was a statement and not an invitation, you use the wrong word making your reply mean she stated you didn't do something and proceeded to invite you to do so.
> 
> FWIW, I believe every one here gets the general meaning of others posts regardless of grammar and punctuation. When you insist on using absolutely perfect phrasing, you are making it impossible for anyone to have an exchange with you. Maybe that's what you want. IDK.


I didn't insist on absolutely perfect phrasing. It's not hard to state can you, would you. If I state 'you never X' that sounds like a statement, accusation or claim not an invitation.


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## dollygal (Sep 23, 2014)

thetiredmommy said:


> Thank you. I really am trying. I know that I've been challenging for a lot of people, but I do love my husband. And I guess just as important, it was fun! I'm grateful that he is very considerate in bed and makes sure that I am enjoying it, too.


Back to my prior question:


thetiredmommy said:


> Well*, we did have sex last night and I think he was really happy. Actually we were both happy. *


Do you know why you were happy? Is there any interest in recreating that to suit the quantity/quality he wants?


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

*Re: Re: does this seem rigid?*



thetiredmommy said:


> Thank you. I really am trying. I know that I've been challenging for a lot of people, but I do love my husband. And I guess just as important, it was fun! I'm grateful that he is very considerate in bed and makes sure that I am enjoying it, too.


We're a fickle lot here, but I'm confident in stating that we are also sucker ' s for good news and happy endings.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Deejo said:


> We're a fickle lot here, but I'm confident in stating that we are also sucker ' s for good news and happy endings.


Everyone loves a happy ending, now and then...

C


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## thetiredmommy (Sep 10, 2014)

dollygal said:


> Back to my prior question:
> 
> Do you know why you were happy? Is there any interest in recreating that to suit the quantity/quality he wants?


I was happy because I do like sex. It's just hard to turn off my mind and think "sex" when I'm stressed out or tired. I think that I just need to learn how to let go in general so I can enjoy life in general, you know?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

*Re: Re: does this seem rigid?*



thetiredmommy said:


> I was happy because I do like sex. It's just hard to turn off my mind and think "sex" when I'm stressed out or tired. I think that I just need to learn how to let go in general so I can enjoy life in general, you know?


This is far and away the best post I have seen from you yet. You are making me optimistic about you.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

thetiredmommy said:


> I was happy because I do like sex. It's just hard to turn off my mind and think "sex" when I'm stressed out or tired. I think that I just need to learn how to let go in general so I can enjoy life in general, you know?


This sounds just right. Good on you!


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## I Don't Know (Oct 8, 2013)

thetiredmommy said:


> I was happy because I do like sex. It's just hard to turn off my mind and think "sex" when I'm stressed out or tired. I think that I just need to learn how to let go in general so I can enjoy life in general, you know?


It's all a lot more fun if you can!

Good job banging your husband! Now do it again!!!! 

:smthumbup:


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