# Nice Guy



## Losing (Jul 30, 2012)

Well, I'm definitely a "nice guy" and I've started reading that book. I have a long way to go. I have hopes that my marriage can be saved but also realize that this is a change for MYSELF no matter what. 

That being said, you may have read my thread from yesterday http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/52455-over.html 

and today I got this email titled "Your impending divorce"...

While you’re busy ignoring me again and trying to label yourself and place blame elsewhere, I’m busy working on finding a stupid process server because I can’t HAND you divorce papers to sign. It’s not legal. Therefore, I’m resigned to seeking your cooperation and your genuine SIGNATURE because it’s a felony otherwise and even though you’ve said you don’t want me going to jail, I don’t trust you enough to not pursue that. To aid you in your path back to reality, I’ve compiled a lengthy list of GOOD reasons why this marriage contract needs to be dissolved.

To begin with, you have two major character flaws that are unacceptable to me: weakness and dishonesty. Read that sentence again until there’s no doubt in your head about it’s truth.

I’ve realized why I always felt something was off with you and that you could possibly be a serial killer. It’s because you’re a shell of a man with nothing really inside. No wants, no needs, no ambitions .
No DESIRES – if you truly desired something (for example, anything to do with ME?) you wouldn’t be able to ignore it. Yet you’ve ignored me and my needs physically and emotionally and you continue to do so.
You tricked me in the beginning, taking the role of a man, taking care of me, opening doors, making sure I was ok, but there was never anything deeper in you. Something was always missing, at first I was waiting for a psycho to come out but nothing did. Nothing deeper came out because you’re hollow and soul-less. No wants, no needs, no backbone. No true desires because true desires can’t be ignored. You never desired me or a true relationship.

I always told you to do things for YOU but you could never do that. I told you to do what YOU wanted, you never did. You’re not a mindreader and you absolutely do NOT please people. You please yourself. You do what YOU think is right, and when that doesn’t go right, you appease yourself and MAKE it right with YOURSELF, telling yourself you tried, you did good. It doesn’t matter to you what anyone else says or thinks. It doesn’t even matter what the truth is to you. You blame everything else. You try to find medical excuses, psychiatric excuses, work excuses. You’ve even blamed me for my own feelings and issues with this relationship.

If you keep telling yourself we’re having relationship problems because of your stupid job, you’re lying to yourself.

If you tell yourself we didn’t have sex because you’re broken, you’re lying to yourself.

If you blame your weakness on your parents, you’re lying to yourself.

Who’s to blame for your behavior? If you’re actually trying to find something or someone to blame for your behavior, other than yourself and your choices, you’re being dishonest. Stop lying to yourself.
Your “desire” for me could never overcome your innate weakness and desire to please your own self. Therefore, we’re brought back to the fact that you never truly desired me or considered how I felt.

Do you wonder how I feel? Do you care? I feel the same way I’ve felt for years. Alone and missing something. So I’ve waited and waited and waited, always waiting for something. Waiting for you to come to me, to show you care. Waiting for you to say something honest.
Waiting for you to follow through. Waiting so much that even waiting 30 seconds for you to get into action is too long. So once again...thanks for ignoring me, but no thanks.

Nothing is important enough to overcome your “need to please,” except that phrase isn’t as nice as it sounds. It pleases no one but yourself. You don’t care enough, you don’t have enough backbone, enough determination FOR ANYTHING in your life. You have absolutely no ambition and no desire to learn or grow as a person. You never grew into a man either. I’ve told you before that I have two children, I don’t need you as third. You’re weak and can’t stand up for yourself. That’s what makes you pathetic.

Are you just now realizing what you are? Now that the damage is irreparable? Or are you still looking for answers the hard way?
Looking everywhere but right here in front of you.

You were always looking for me to tell you what to do and how to act, and you got frustrated when I wouldn’t tell you. You never asked how I felt or tried to understand what was missing. Is that what was like pulling teeth when talking to me? You desparately wanted me to tell you what to do and how to act. And I never told you because YOU DON’T TELL PEOPLE WHAT TO DO OR HOW TO ACT. So you didn’t know what to do because I refused to tell you what to do.

Do you realize now that you can’t tell people to change? You can’t tell your mom to stop drinking, I could never tell you how to be a man.

The reason why I don’t WANT anything from you after I do TELL you what to do is because it’s not real, it’s not honest, and it’s not genuine.
Again, tell your mom to stop drinking and she might for a day, but then what? If you told her to and she listened, she stopped for a day, would that make you happy? Did she change? Did she do it herself? Did she genuinely understand what you were saying? Did she alter her lifelong habit because you told her to? Is that what you want?

Your words, your promises, they’re like your mom’s, they’re worthless.

I’m not done but this is getting too long.


---She's told me all of these things before but now that I'm reading No More Mr. Niceguy I realize just how much of a problem this was and is. Any thoughts???


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## C123 (Jun 20, 2012)

And why do you want to be married to this person who clearly despises you and has no trouble communicating that??? I'm not sure reading a book is going to help you out of this one. I can't imaging staying with someone who so clearly and eloquently describes how much she hates me.

Do whatever you have to do to "fix" yourself, but I think whatever progress you make is going to be for the next woman, not this one.


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## Losing (Jul 30, 2012)

I absolutely love everything about this woman. I know there is a lot of anger in her email but remember, she has told me all of this MANY times before. She's told me what she needed and what I wasn't doing. I never manned up and did any of it. 

I'm not sure whether the marriage can be saved at this point but I love her with all my heart. 

I realize that I need to change for myself regardless of this. 

But that angry woman who hates me is the most amazing, beautiful, smart, funny, gorgeous, sexy, witty, unselfish, stunningly beautiful (had to be said again) creature I have ever known.

I do want to be her man desparately but I'm not going to act like a desperate, lost puppy trying to win her back because I know that isn't going to work and because I don't want to be that guy anymore.


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## Losing (Jul 30, 2012)

I only just found this site yesterday and it's been incredibly helpful so far. Any thoughts and insight would be greatly appreciated on this.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Losing said:


> I only just found this site yesterday and it's been incredibly helpful so far. Any thoughts and insight would be greatly appreciated on this.


From your thread in the men's section and her e-mail, I'd say, you need a lot more that a book and this site to help you.

She is pretty much done. You should prepare to be alone. Work on yourself, become a better person and a better man. Experience is the best education.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

I'm not sure it would help, but a simple "I realize you are right. I'm sorry I put you through this. I only wish I had listened sooner." might mean a whole lot to her.


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## Losing (Jul 30, 2012)

anchorwatch said:


> From your thread in the men's section and her e-mail, I'd say, you need a lot more that a book and this site to help you.
> 
> She is pretty much done. You should prepare to be alone. Work on yourself, become a better person and a better man. Experience is the best education.


I realize that I need more than a book.

ANd thank you for the response. I do hope it's not over but I'm also prepared for the worst. I want to change regardless. I'm sick of feeling uncomfortable in situations and having to avoid conflict and not being a man. 

I truly wish I had more of these experiences BEFORE I met and married the woman of my dreams. But you can't plan these things I guess.


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## Paulination (Feb 6, 2012)

Take a long hard look at that e-mail and learn from it. I'll bet beneath the anger there is alot of truth there.


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## Losing (Jul 30, 2012)

Acorn said:


> I'm not sure it would help, but a simple "I realize you are right. I'm sorry I put you through this. I only wish I had listened sooner." might mean a whole lot to her.


Thank you for responding. 

I did respond already but it was much longer than what you suggested. Whether or not it helps or hurts the situation, it was what I wanted to say to her. I said what I felt. In more words I did tell her that she was right.

I didn't respond whining and pining for her not to go through with this, I've done all that before and all it did was make me feel worse and her resent me more.

I've got a lot to learn and I think I'll be visiting this site for a long time...


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## Losing (Jul 30, 2012)

Paulination said:


> Take a long hard look at that e-mail and learn from it. I'll bet beneath the anger there is alot of truth there.


You are 100% correct. There is a TON of truth in there. Painful truth. I hate that I am the guy she is talking about but I am. That's me.

I want to be a better man.


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## ShawnD (Apr 2, 2012)

> I’ve realized why I always felt something was off with you and that you could possibly be a serial killer. It’s because you’re a shell of a man with nothing really inside. No wants, no needs, no ambitions .
> No DESIRES – if you truly desired something (for example, anything to do with ME?) you wouldn’t be able to ignore it. Yet you’ve ignored me and my needs physically and emotionally and you continue to do so.


Are you depressed? That sounds like she's describing anhedonia (inability to enjoy things). People with anhedonia are not really passionate about anything. They don't look forward to the weekend, they don't look forward to vacation, they don't have any real plans or ambitions. They just sort of coast through life and wait for death. It's mostly just a physical problem. The brain doesn't have a strong reaction to positive stimulation, so nothing offers strong reinforcement. Medication can be used to greatly increase the brain's excitability, and that makes things more enjoyable. A few natural alternatives to prescription drugs are: coffee, ephedra, ginseng, echinacea, and B vitamins. It can also be strongly affected by sleep problems such as sleep apnea, an uncomfortable bed, sleeping in a room with a lot of LED lights, or having inconsistent sleep-wake cycles such as shift work.




> You tricked me in the beginning, taking the role of a man, taking care of me, opening doors, making sure I was ok, but there was never anything deeper in you. Something was always missing, at first I was waiting for a psycho to come out but nothing did. Nothing deeper came out because you’re hollow and soul-less. No wants, no needs, no backbone. No true desires because true desires can’t be ignored. You never desired me or a true relationship.


It sounds like she's saying that instead of wanting her specifically, you just wanted a partner and it didn't matter who. It sounds like you're a very lonely person and your sense of self worth is external - you need other people to say you're a good person. It's great that you're reading a book about changing your nice guy behavior, but none of that address why you need validation from other people. The root behavior can be fixed with drugs and therapy.


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## ArmyofJuan (Dec 29, 2010)

I get the impression you married someone to replace your mother; you basically put yourself in a child’s role and wanted her to make all the decisions. Women HATE that, they look to men to lead and take control. 

So basically you had a parent/child relationship and she finally snapped. All you can do is agree with her and even go as far as tell her you know she will be better off without you (that will show you are not all selfish). The worse you can do is try to stop her right now. She needs to defuse her anger and that will take a good couple of months at least of limited to no contact. BTW the less you speak or communicate the better and when you do make it short and sweet. No long talks about anything.

Also don’t be shocked if she is having an exit affair, those usually give them push to actually leave the relationship.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

I can see why you like her, but personally, I would have to let this one go if she doesn't agree to try to be a little more respectful


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Those words hurt because there is a shred of truth to them, but I'm a nice guy too and there is nothing wrong with genuine contentment, and she had a golden opportunity to negotiate a marriage that would include all her needs and if she was the kind of person who could look deeper inside you she may see that having charge over your own life does not always have to smell like pure raw ambition. She lost respect and attraction for you because she really didn't put in the effort to love who you really are.

Now I agree with others that you (just as I do) have a journey ahead of you to create the life you want, especially when you get frustrated about the way certain things don't seem to go your way - you have to make those opportunites not just take them - but you will always have your core values no matter if you are with someone who can't see the goldmine she was sitting on.

Honestly some hard work on your part to grow past your comfort zone and fear of imposition, and you will realize that you already posess the same qualities you see in her - she is not and has never been above you, just been led to think she is by, I presume, a stream of fitness tests that nobody ever trained you how to pass, and which your goal is now to identify before giving away your love to readily to those unworthy. you are not a shell of a man like she has you convinced, you are just struggling to recognize your own worth - believe me these words have so much meaning to me too, because it is the ONE big challenge this world has given me to tackle for myself.


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## Max Demien (Jul 24, 2012)

You said you want to be a better man, so that in itself is a huge step forward. As for losing her, you can't control that. So, as hard as it may seem, you can't dwell on it. All you can do is take each and every day, and become a better man. Take concrete action to improve and tell her what you're doing. But more importantly, SHOW her what you will do. That's all you can control. 

I agree with the others that she is extremely insulting and shows very little compassion. You don't do this, you don't do that. You don't care about this, you only care about that. I was lonely, bored, etc etc. It's all me, me, me. Is she perfect? I effin doubt it.


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## Losing (Jul 30, 2012)

Thank you all for the advice. I really appreciate it. I haven't talked to anyone about issues and this can't be done alone. I just got home and talked to her. I told her what i'm doing and that she was right about my issues. I told her I was doing it for myself because I don't want to be that man anymore. She said I ignored her all day and shes moving on. I said I spent the whole day reading, learning. She said I should have let her know so she wouldn't think I had given up (like so many times before). I apologized and said that was my mistake. We talked a little more then she couldn't take anymore and said she didn't want to talk any more. I said I want to talk more and she got very angry saying I was ignoring her again. I apologized and left her alone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Losing (Jul 30, 2012)

ShawnD said:


> Are you depressed? That sounds like she's describing anhedonia (inability to enjoy things). People with anhedonia are not really passionate about anything. They don't look forward to the weekend, they don't look forward to vacation, they don't have any real plans or ambitions. They just sort of coast through life and wait for death. It's mostly just a physical problem. The brain doesn't have a strong reaction to positive stimulation, so nothing offers strong reinforcement. Medication can be used to greatly increase the brain's excitability, and that makes things more enjoyable. A few natural alternatives to prescription drugs are: coffee, ephedra, ginseng, echinacea, and B vitamins. It can also be strongly affected by sleep problems such as sleep apnea, an uncomfortable bed, sleeping in a room with a lot of LED lights, or having inconsistent sleep-wake cycles such as shift work.
> 
> 
> 
> It sounds like she's saying that instead of wanting her specifically, you just wanted a partner and it didn't matter who. It sounds like you're a very lonely person and your sense of self worth is external - you need other people to say you're a good person. It's great that you're reading a book about changing your nice guy behavior, but none of that address why you need validation from other people. The root behavior can be fixed with drugs and therapy.


 there is a lot of truth in what you say. But I do not think I am depressed. I do look forward to weekends vacations and all sorts of things. But I really had no goals or plans.

To some extent I do just get lonely and need someone, but she
Truly is a one and only and the girl of my dreams.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Losing (Jul 30, 2012)

Max Demien said:


> You said you want to be a better man, so that in itself is a huge step forward. As for losing her, you can't control that. So, as hard as it may seem, you can't dwell on it. All you can do is take each and every day, and become a better man. Take concrete action to improve and tell her what you're doing. But more importantly, SHOW her what you will do. That's all you can control.
> 
> I agree with the others that she is extremely insulting and shows very little compassion. You don't do this, you don't do that. You don't care about this, you only care about that. I was lonely, bored, etc etc. It's all me, me, me. Is she perfect? I effin doubt it.


I am definitely not dwelling on it (though I usually would) and I know it's very possibly over at this point. I want to change regardless of that. I have put all decisions on her and she got sick of it. I'm sick of it too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Stop talking to her - tell her ONCE only that you are not giving up on the relationship and don't give her a word more. Every word you say is one less thing you are actually doing. She is accusing you of being a doormat then also that you are not paying her enough attention?? What is she doing to deserve your attention? If she starts treating you nice then give her your attention, but don't reward her for her disrespect for you, make her earn your energy and if she doesn't treat you like a person deserves to be treated then go do your own thing instead (whatever the fck you want to do, tv, cleaning, video game, golf, yardwork, whateve you think you need to do most is your priority, and i guarantee doding on her is not the priority for you).


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Losing, wow, that was a mountain of accusations there. I am tempted ask you why you have LIVED like this for so very long, allowing this belittling to go on and on - to the point of divorce..... why you allowed her to make every decision, Why she calls you hollow, sounds like you have neglected her physcially ~ sexually...she never felt you WANTED her, she says you are dishonest..... And saying you fooled her early on...while dating. 

Very VERY hurtful degrading manner that was written in.... I think even she could have handled that letter in a more delicate manner and focused more on the hurt SHE is experiencing due to some of your weaknesses -than calling you a suspected Serial Killer. My Goodness ! 

**** * But instead.... lets talk about what you have done RIGHT over the years, the things you are proud of... what you can build on....where there is life, there is hope...

1. Do you hold a steady job -bring home a paycheck & pay the bills?

2. Are you a father who gives his kids time & laughter?

3. Do you fix things around the house that are in need of repair ? 

4. DO you have friends & family who care for you & are there for you?

as examples...


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## thunderstruck (May 9, 2012)

I've read the Nice Guy book a couple of times, and I've done the work. Once I recognized myself in the book, it set me on the path to really bust my azz and make the necessary changes to become the man I wanted to be.

The letter your W wrote blew me away...it almost looks like she had the author of the book standing over her shoulder. She absolutely nailed Nice Guys in general. From what you're saying, there is a lot of truth in her letter. IMHO, your W is probably gone. She has reached her limit with you. But, here is what I would do in your shoes...

-Buy the _Nice Guy _and _Hold On To Your Nuts _books today. Read them. Read them again. Dig deep and do the work/exercises in them. 
-Ask your W to sit with you, and ask her to just listen for a few mins. Then, say something like (in a confident/neutral tone), "I read your letter, and there is a lot of truth in there. You've told me these things before, and I didn't listen. I accept now that I have issues, and I apologize for the way I've treated you for years. I am now going to bust my azz to become the strong man I want to be. I want to continue to work on the marriage, but I understand if you don't." Then you STFU, and listen to her if she wants to speak. 
-Don't argue if she says you're full of shyte and playing games. She is hurt, she won't believe you, and she'll probably lash out - "Oh, now you want to change!" 
-Don't beg/plead. 
-Don't tell her you're doing the work "for her." 
-Don't go on an apology-fest. You apologized once...you're done.

I was somewhat where you are 4-5 years ago. My W probably wanted to bail on my azz, but she has her own issues, so she stuck it out. Feel free to blast away with questions here, or PM me. You have a long and tough road ahead of you. Stay strong.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I am trying to discern the letter that you indicated that in no uncertain terms indicates this woman is done with you ... completely. There is a LOT of anger in those words.

And then you turn around and describe her as the kindest, most beautiful, patient and loving woman you have ever known.

There is a yawning chasm between the truth as she perceives it, and the truth as you perceive it.

Here is where you start ...

Stop trying to do, be or say what you think she is going to approve of. That is a wash at this point. You trying to impress her that you are prepared to make drastic changes is only going to make her angrier at you.

It is further evidence that you are reactive. Not proactive.

You want to be proactive? Give her what she wants ... state that you do not want what she wants (I believe you already have, so don't keep doing it.), and grant her the divorce. 

Then get to work on yourself. You decide what kind of man you want to be. Because trying to frame your work as being the man you think she wants you to be will fail ... spectacularly.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Losing said:


> I absolutely love everything about this woman. I know there is a lot of anger in her email but remember, she has told me all of this MANY times before. She's told me what she needed and what I wasn't doing. I never manned up and did any of it.
> 
> I'm not sure whether the marriage can be saved at this point but I love her with all my heart.
> 
> ...


You are in love with a fantasy. You have an image of who she is. But you will not allow yourself to see the truth.

Your self esteem is so low you feel that she is your only chance. She is not.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Losing said:


> I realize that I need more than a book.
> 
> ANd thank you for the response. I do hope it's not over but I'm also prepared for the worst. I want to change regardless. I'm sick of feeling uncomfortable in situations and having to avoid conflict and not being a man.
> 
> I truly wish I had more of these experiences BEFORE I met and married the woman of my dreams. But you can't plan these things I guess.


There are billions of women out there.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

I must be crazy or something, but when I read the original thread by the OP, the letter from the wife in this thread and then the comments by Losing in this thread, I interpret this situation completely different than anyone else so far. 

I don't think his wife wants the divorce at all, and I think she is actually trying to slap some sense into her husband. If she was truly done with this marriage, then why did she go to all of the effort to painstakingly spell out everything the OP has done wrong in the marriage? IMO, if the wife was truly done, she would have sent this e-mail with much less detail and simply write that the marriage is over, I want a divorce and that is it. Done. OK, notice what Losing said in a follow up post:



> Thank you all for the advice. I really appreciate it. I haven't talked to anyone about issues and this can't be done alone. I just got home and talked to her. I told her what i'm doing and that she was right about my issues. I told her I was doing it for myself because I don't want to be that man anymore. *She said I ignored her all day and shes moving on. I said I spent the whole day reading, learning. She said I should have let her know so she wouldn't think I had given up (like so many times before). *I apologized and said that was my mistake. We talked a little more then she couldn't take anymore and said she didn't want to talk any more. I said I want to talk more and she got very angry saying I was ignoring her again. I apologized and left her alone.


That clearly tells me that she is NOT done and is still hoping against hope that her husband decides he's ready to fight for her and to save this marriage. This is really what his wife wants from him more than anything. She wants attention from him, love, someone that will talk to her and validate her existence. IMO, he could do much to repair the damage to this marriage by telling his wife that he wants to be there for her and that he wants to listen. She's starved for affection, and if Losing would start showing more affection - right now - that he can buy himself some time while he works on improving himself.

Losing, has your wife always been this demanding and has she always tried to order you around? My guess is that she wasn't always like this and that she is coming across as looking like a controlling witch in the letter because she is at the end of her rope. If she was always angry with you then that's one thing. However, if her personality changed over time, then I think she is just frustrated with you more than anything.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I think she is actually trying to slap some sense into her husband. If she was truly done with this marriage, then why did she go to all of the effort to painstakingly spell out everything the OP has done wrong in the marriage? IMO, if the wife was truly done, she would have sent this e-mail with much less detail and simply write that the marriage is over, I want a divorce and that is it. Done.


My thoughts exactly. Unfortunately, her communication style could be a little off-putting not necessarily the best way to express herself.

Losing, get yourself a copy of "The Love Dare" and do what they recommend. Whatever your wife decides to do, you will be a better person for it


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Plan 9, I see her comments as just her setting up some sort of justification for deciding to end it. To overcome the cognitive dissonance for her emotional checkout, and to make an argument for herself when people will inevitably question why the marriage failed, and so she can garner the necessary sympathy from the next man in her life.

My opinion could be personal bias I suppose, my ex never left me a well articulated letter like that... but however well articulated it is, it is still a very selfish letter and is demonstrating she is not willing to look deep into the H to see the great person he really is. She could use a slap up the head from Simply Amorous (but I doubt it would ever be taken to heart because Losing's W is too shallow).


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## Houstondad (Jul 6, 2011)

Get your life back brother! 
You do have to do the hard work the book suggests. It's hard for many of us to look deep down to see who we really are. I bet you might be feeling guilt from the realization that you are a "Nice Guy with all of those bad traits wrapped in a neat bow. 

Your wife doesn't respect you because you don't respect yourself. Work on you, not trying to change her.

Do the things such as:

1. Surrender- let go of things you can't control; focus on only what YOU can control!
2. Start dwelling in reality. You may not be perfect, but neither is she. No one is!! Don't be hard on yourself!
3. Share your feelings- remember, you're feelings no matter how bad you think they may be are not going to kill anyone!
4. No matter what happens, YOU CAN HANDLE IT!
5. Integrity- Decide what's right and do it.
6. Set Boundaries...and DO NOT BACK DOWN!

Get your NUTS back:
1. Connect/hang out with other male friends. You may be worried she'll feel you don't care for her if you're spending time with friends. So just communicate your intentions ahead of time. And offer times she would like to hang out with you.
2. Get stronger (Physically. Take care of yourself. Pamper yourself and make yourself look like a lady fkn killer.)
3. Find Healthy MALE Role Models.
4. Re-examine your childhood relationship with your mom and dad.

I know what you're going through. I've discovered I have many of the qualities of a nice guy and my EX-wife lost respect for me over the final years of our marriage. Course, her deciding to cheat and her taking no responsibility/blaming me,etc. didn't help either. I wish I discovered this book years ago, but it's better late than never.

Remember: FOCUS ON YOU!


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## Houstondad (Jul 6, 2011)

Lon said:


> Plan 9, *I see her comments as just her setting up some sort of justification for deciding to end it. To overcome the cognitive dissonance for her emotional checkout, and to make an argument for herself when people will inevitably question why the marriage failed, and so she can garner the necessary sympathy from the next man in her life.*
> 
> My opinion could be personal bias I suppose, my ex never left me a well articulated letter like that... but however well articulated it is, it is still a very selfish letter and is demonstrating *she is not willing to look deep into the H to see the great person he really is.* She could use a slap up the head from Simply Amorous (but I doubt it would ever be taken to heart because Losing's W is too shallow).


I apologize for temporarily hijacking Losing's thread. But I've had the same thing happen to me when it came to the cognitive dissonance of my EX. Pulling so many excuses out of her ARSE to justify the death of the marriage. She did it in MC and now is garnering sympathy from her friends in the new town she escaped too. And as frustrating as it may be, both her and I know the real truth and that's all that FKN matters. 

Your comment about her not willing to look deep into who he really is helped me lessen my guilt that I was solely responsible of years of abuse because I was a Nice guy and that sent my EX and marriage over the edge. Thanks.

And yes, Loser's wife is not only disrespectful, she lacks sympathy. It's this complete lack of sympathy and understanding that Loser needs to realize and needs to stop putting her at the top of the podium. Loser needs to work on himself so in the end it's he who is at the top getting an Olympic Gold-FN medal.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Before everyone decides to play judge, jury and executioner, I would like to hear more from Losing about whether his wife went through a change in personality as the marriage went on. I think it's fair to say that no one in this thread except for Losing knows if this last letter he received from his wife was pretty much how the marriage always operated or if she went down her own road of despair because she wasn't getting acknowledged in her marriage. Per the OP's own words, he said that he never initiated intimacy with her, he never listened to her when she was going through any problems - basically he wasn't there to show her that he loved her. At least that is what she thinks based on the actions that have occurred in this marriage thus far. Due to years of neglect, this may be her lashing out at her husband because he never committed to his marriage in the beginning. This explanation is just as likely as her being the cold hearted ***** who made this guy's life a living hell from day one. 

Look, I'm not taking sides in this. My only concern is that we are not getting the complete story here.


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Wow...this kind of floored me a bit. So much that it took a lot of time to come up with a response to this.

Firstly...kudos on trying to change yourself. Since you are just starting your "Manning Up" journey, it's normal to feel like you do. The trick is to keep at it. I've been here, my friend. But you will be stronger for it.

Ok..now to some insight....

The letter. My wife gave me a letter like that, but maybe not so harsh. They are hard words to hear, friend, but you see a lot of mistakes of yourself in those words. My advice. Hold that letter up about chest high with one hand, arm fully extended, while you grasp the top of the page. Now extend your other hand up mid way between you and the letter, making a fist towards it. Then...slowly....take that middle finger and extend it up to the sky as high as it can go. then..utter these words...."Fu(k this!"
You see, in my opinion, that letter did hold a lot of resentment, but it's also one sided, with ALL the blame on you. And a lot of it will be only a version of your marital history rewritten to justify her actions and hate towards you. Yes, you need to use those words and make yourself a stronger, better man because of it, but don't let those words destroy you.

I see a few other things that concern me about both your actions. And I'll start with her:

This....
"*She said I ignored her all day and shes moving on*. I said I spent the whole day reading, learning. She said I should have let her know so she wouldn't think I had given up (like so many times before). I apologized and said that was my mistake. We talked a little more then she couldn't take anymore and said she didn't want to talk any more. I said I want to talk more and *she got very angry saying I was ignoring her again*. I apologized and left her alone."

Ok. So...wtf. She's mad at you for ignoring her...and then when you want to talk...she gets angry and says you are ignoring her. There is a lot of resentment here. And IMO again, she is passively trying to hurt you into turning EVERY SINGLE thing you do into a slight against her and using it as justification for her anger. 
(This is important later...keep reading...)

Now You...and I'm going to use the same quotes...
"She said I ignored her all day and shes moving on. I said I spent the whole day reading, learning. She said I should have let her know so she wouldn't think I had given up (like so many times before).* I apologized *and said that was *my mistake*. We talked a little more then she couldn't take anymore and said she didn't want to talk any more. I said I want to talk more and she got very angry saying I was ignoring her again. *I apologized and left her alone*. "

Well...you are apologizing for her bad behavior, in an attempt to appease both her and the situation. Why? Why would you do this. This is weak. Look...you have something to say...so say it. Who gives a crap if she gets angry at you. Your still hiding behind your Nice Guy persona, trying to please her all the time and keep her on that pedestal. DON'T APOLOGIZE for this. And stop always saying "sorry". I get the feeling you say that a lot. The first step in your journey of manning up should be to recognize that you don't always have to say sorry. If she starts ranting at you...calmly and with confidence get up and say.."Look. I have things to say. If you don't want to hear them now, fine. But this conversation isn't over."

Now that you got that advise on how to handle yourself, DON"T say THIS in your current situation....
"Look. I have things to say. If you don't want to hear them now, fine. But this conversation isn't over."

The fact of the matter, the conversation SHOULD BE OVER. Your starting out your journey with the goal of appeasing her yet again, making her notice your changes in an attempt to "win" her over. Don't follow this path...its just a bad cover for simulating yourself into looking like your growing, but your really not. DO THE CHANGES...FOR YOURSELF. Not her. If you truly become a stronger man as you wish, it will just show in your new mannerisms and confidence. She will either be on board with that, or not. 

So...stop trying to appease her. She want's to leave so bad, then let her. Dont convince her that your changing. Just DO IT. After you become a stronger person, if she likes what she sees, then perhaps things will work out. But if she's not on board, then you must be prepared to let her go and find a more suitable person for you.

Stop talking about the relationship with her. If she brings it up, I would remind her that you know where she stands. Start your journey. Gain confidence. Go to the gym. Get some cool hobbies. Shoot guns. Whatever you wish to do. Just do those things. 

And stop apologizing for appeasement. 

Take care, friend. You have a hard journey ahead of you.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I don't think she actually wants a divorce either ...

That is EXACTLY why he shouldn't fight her on it.

She doesn't trust him. Not remotely.

For her to feel that whatever changes Losing decides to make are permanent ... and positive, will be a very long time. She will sh!t test him constantly if he tries to do this while they are under the same roof.

Bottom line, maybe the man he is , is not the man for her ... and neither of them wishes that were true.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Deejo said:


> I don't think she actually wants a divorce either ...
> 
> That is EXACTLY why he shouldn't fight her on it.
> 
> ...


There sure will be an immense amount of pain behind that much anger. She sounds deeply wounded.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

While for me her email was way over the top derogatory, it is an exceedingly good insight into the Rhino personality.

Some reckon half the population is made up of Rhinos, the other half of Hedgehogs. It makes sense to me and I reckon pairings are normally a Rhino and Hedgehog. Imagine having two Rhinos together and the constant conflict or two hedgehogs and nothing much happening at all.

It’s been my experience that the Nice Guy/Nice Woman is the Hedgehog. And I think Nice Guys reading this thread wont have a clue what’s in Mrs Losing the Rhino’s head. As a Rhino I’d say she is immensely frustrated, she’s deeply hurt, she feels very unloved and she’s most certainly at the end of her tether if not snapped it altogether.

I’d also say that she loves Losing a lot.

But what can he do? If I was him I’d go right back at her and there would be pretty big conflict. I’d stand my ground and point out all the good in me and all the good I’ve done for her and our children. If Loser can’t do that then he probably has really lost. What I mean is if he hasn’t already stepped up to the plate and done the things husbands and fathers are supposed to do then I can’t see anyway back for him.

I’d probably put her over my knee and smack her bum as well. The guy has let her totally and absolutley dominate him, she’s all but lost her respect for him as well.


2-in-2-1 - Tips - Anger
Are you a rhino or a hedgehog? - timesofmalta.com
Learn Better Conflict Management Techniques: How do You Handle Conflicts in Your Life - Find out How to do Better | Suite101.com


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## OhGeesh (Jan 5, 2010)

Get a divorce you obviously treated her very bad for a very long time. Just move on no fixing that!!


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## WakeUpWS (Jan 7, 2012)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WakeUpWS (Jan 7, 2012)

I could have been described like you by my own wife. Reading your wife's email reflected a lot of who I was - a nice guy. 

But, the bit about your mother... Big ol' red flag there!

How so? You may be a co-dependent. If you have alcoholism in your family, especially from childhood, codependence may a part of your wife's perception of you. 

I've read No More Mr. Nice Guy - it's all just another spin on codependence. 

I would recommend for you, not for your wife, not for your marriage, get into Al Anon. A men's group would be best.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mena (Aug 3, 2012)

you you you you...

geesh.
So much invalidation here.
She used what thigns were said to you by your mother against you, so ruthless.
there is truth to what she is saying. 
She has repeated over and over again whats bothered her the most.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Losing said:


> she has told me all of this MANY times before. She's told me what she needed and what I wasn't doing. I never manned up and did any of it.



Could you give us some examples of the things that she has told you she needed and that you did not do?


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

I am not convinced that the "letter from the wife" is an accurate portrayal of who she really was during the majority of this marriage. I'm hoping that Losing can shed some more light on this. I'm not saying this woman is perfect by any means nor was the e-mail in the OP the best way to go about talking to Losing. But what I sense is a woman who has been neglected emotionally by her husband for most of the marriage. But I really do not want to jump to conclusions before we get the whole story. This whole situation does not seem to fit the typical "nice guy married an alpha female witch who made poor nice guy's life a living hell...". To me this e-mail in the OP looked like a woman that hit the limit and let it ALL out.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> ...This whole situation does not seem to fit the typical "nice guy married an alpha female witch who made poor nice guy's life a living hell...". To me this e-mail in the OP looked like a woman that hit the limit and let it ALL out.


uh, no it fits the typical "nice guy married typical woman who loved him cause he was kind and courteous but eventually learned she could treat him like crap and he would just keep taking it, eventually she just needed someone to give her tough love and she can't handle getting off scott free anymore and let it all out by unleashing all her frustrations of never having a man who would keep her immaturity in check for her so cut him deep as she knew how by loading her hurtful vitriol with as much truth as she could muster"


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

I respecfully disagree most of the opinions here. I think:
1. Your wife still loves you now and hopes you can change, 
2. You love your wife and need to change
3. There is a good chance you guys can grow together to a happy marriage if both of you are Serious enough.

My suggestion:
1. You need to change for REAL
2. You need she knows that you are damn serious and are changing
3. At some time, you need to turn the table. You need to lead, that means, read her mind and heart, fill her with passion, and even stand up to her to lead

When you make a surprise standing up, please plan ahead and pick up an issue that shows your underlying love for her. Argue with her and let she realize that your going against her this time is not to ignore her but adore her and think in her behalf.

You need to grow and make damn time and efforts and attention to this!


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## WakeUpWS (Jan 7, 2012)

I could have been described like you by my own wife. Reading your wife's email reflected a lot of who I was - a nice guy. 

But, the bit about your mother... Big ol' red flag there!

How so? You may be a co-dependent. If you have alcoholism in your family, especially from childhood, codependence may a part of your wife's perception of you. 

I've read No More Mr. Nice Guy - it's all just another spin on codependence. 

I would recommend for you, not for your wife, not for your marriage, get into Al Anon. A men's group would be best.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nomoretogive (Oct 29, 2011)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I am not convinced that the "letter from the wife" is an accurate portrayal of who she really was during the majority of this marriage. I'm hoping that Losing can shed some more light on this. I'm not saying this woman is perfect by any means nor was the e-mail in the OP the best way to go about talking to Losing. But what I sense is a woman who has been neglected emotionally by her husband for most of the marriage. But I really do not want to jump to conclusions before we get the whole story. This whole situation does not seem to fit the typical "nice guy married an alpha female witch who made poor nice guy's life a living hell...". To me this e-mail in the OP looked like a woman that hit the limit and let it ALL out.


Obviously, we'll never know the whole story and there's been lots of great speculation on this thread -- lots of points that are so dead-on it's scary how smart everyone here is -- but I too wonder if this closer to what happened than some of the other suggestions about an alpha b!tch gone rogue.

As I read the letter from his wife -- as unsexy and harsh as it was -- I found myself wishing I was able to sum up my marriage with my husband so well, minus the serial killer part. My husband was just like the OP: For years, he was emotionally unavailable, just out of reach, and didn't meet any of my needs. I kept trying harder and harder; kept telling him that I needed him to meet me in the middle. He would "yes, dear" me, act like he understood what I was talking about, and then go back to acting as though I was nothing. Nor did he have any goals, ambitions, life plans -- just nothing; like he was empty inside -- besides getting through the day. 

I went from being an upbeat, outgoing woman when we met to nearly being a shell of a person myself, after having beat my head against the wall for years, begging and pleading with him to work with me to keep the marriage on track, only to be greeted with the same old nothing again. I, too, had to tell him specifically what it was I wanted/needed him to do; but when he would try to do it, it was obvious his heart wasn't in it and it wasn't genuine, he was just doing it to shut me up to buy himself a little more time. One day, I had reached my breaking point, just as it seems OP's wife has. 

I'm sure that OP's wife has her own contributions to the downfall of the marriage, but she has made it clear that she was pushed to the brink and had to let it all out because she could take no more. Carrying that kind of stuff around with you -- the constant rejection, the constant having your husband there but not quite there, the broken promises -- tears you apart, little by little every day, until you feel like you're going to explode. So maybe she should have been more kind in her e-mail to him, but if she's been treated this way repeatedly throughout the marriage, I don't think she owed him that at this point. He certainly doesn't seem to have been a very respectful husband. 

Someone else said something like maybe the man he is, isn't the man she needs him to be, and they both wish it weren't true. I think this, too, is spot-on. OP is who he is. I'm just not buying that someone has been "empty" for years, with no goals, plans, ambitions, desire to have a fulfilling and happy marriage, ALL OF A SUDDEN, when his wife is ready to throw in the towel, now wants all of those things to be a reality. It sounds like the typical abuser script to me. 

I suppose it's possible for the OP to morph into a more loving, supportive partner, but I wonder if it's too late for all of that. Once a woman has this kind of resentment built up, has lost all respect for her husband, and has zero trust left in his ability to live up to his word and make positive contributions to the marriage, it's too hard to come back from that and reach a state of marital bliss; some things you just never forget and don't get past. There's just too much history. Even if he is able to make all these wonderful changes, it just may not be enough to make it work with his wife. They probably both wish it were different, but wishing it doesn't always make it possible.

OP, I hope that you're able to get some good quality counseling for yourself, regardless of what happens, so that you can explore why it is there is such a disconnect between how you say you feel and how you act and treat your wife. That's the one thing I've never been able to figure out; how a man can swear, in the eleventh hour when divorce is imminent, that he has all of this love inside and would do anything in the world for his wife, but just has an inability to express that, ever, in any way. I just don't get how that works. We say here all the time to make sure the words match the actions, and this is a case where OP's just haven't for a long, long time. This has been a long time coming. 

If your wife had come here posting her story, everyone on this board would have told her to pack up, leave, run, because she deserves better than what you've given her. They would be right. Either be the man she deserves or let her go without any histrionics so that she can, someday, find a man who will love her, all the time, the way she deserves to be loved.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

nomoretogive said:


> ...That's the one thing I've never been able to figure out; how a man can swear, in the eleventh hour when divorce is imminent, that he has all of this love inside and would do anything in the world for his wife, but just has an inability to express that, ever, in any way. I just don't get how that works. We say here all the time to make sure the words match the actions, and this is a case where OP's just haven't for a long, long time. This has been a long time coming.


This is what happens when a man submits the control over his own life to his W, when he is looking for someone to lead him and no one steps up to do that. He becomes a shell of a person - his co-dependency has enabled him to hand over his heart to his partner as he sits there and waits what to be told to do, and if she doesn't recognize what she is holding it happens just like this OP. 

This is why the guys in men's clubhouse are so adamant about manning up, it is the responsibility that goes along with being male in this world. In certain subsets a matriarchal system may work, but our society is quite the opposite of matriarchal. Men lead, and if not they better find the damn rare gem of a woman who actually enjoys the leadership role of the household.


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

This kind of resentment doesn't just come from being a nice guy, unless of course she is a psycho beatch.

This kind of resentment comes from a very dangerous combination of personality. Nice Guy with Passive Agressive. and maybe throw in a bit of depression and low self worth. 

No More To Give...in response to your thread.. I made my wife into you. It happens because as a nice guy, we have that unwritten contract that I give you love and affection...but I expect a very certain response back in return...some sort of affection from you that I crave. Now...throw isome Passive Agression into ths soup....

I did something nice for you, but I didn't get the response I wanted. So I shut down a bit....withhold some love. It starts small. Little reactions at first...your not quite sure im angry or not. Its very subtle. but over time it builds up. For both parties. The more I feel I don't get what I want, the more I shut down. The more I withhold. and my anger is more apparent to you. But, because it's passive...you still seemed a bit confused over my behavior. 

The more I withhold... The more confused you get. The more resentful you get. But it's driving you freaking nuts, because your not really sure if I'm angry at you...or maybe I've just turned into a bitter man. So you shut down more. Maybe something's not right in your head...so you visit a doctor..get some nice happy medicine like Prozac.

You want the marriage to work...but fu(k...I'm so bitter and withholding. But every once in a while I give you a taste of some love....which just confuses you more. because in the next instant I can go all passive gressive and silently bitter and moody again. 

Pop another Prozac.

Finally...you've reached the end. You just can't take it anymore. Now your walking on eggshells and your an emotional and mental wreck. And your bitter and resentful now too.

Drop in a divorce card now. You've just tuned out of ths toxic behavior. Now....months or perhaps a year later...you realize you don't need that Prozac anymore.

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Ok. So that was kind of depressing and extreme. But that's how a nice guy with codependent issues and passive Agression can drive his wife over the edge.

The reality is...".Losing " (the OP) can change. Yes...it sometimes takes reaching that precipice an dangling over the edge to finally self reflect enough to realize what an idiot we in general can be sometimes. I speak from experience.

As for his wife? Maybe it is too late. Maybe not. But it will take action on his part and not just words. He needs to become stronger. He needs to be a man of confidence. He needs to become a leader. But he definitely has a lot of resentment from his wife to chip away at.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

alphaomega said:


> This kind of resentment doesn't just come from being a nice guy, unless of course she is a psycho beatch.
> 
> *This kind of resentment comes from a very dangerous combination of personality. Nice Guy with Passive Agressive. and maybe throw in a bit of depression and low self worth. *
> 
> ...



That type of resentment, that level of hatred and anger comes from living with a Nice Guy, the Hedgehog you described above.


What you’ve described is the Nice Guy’s Shadow. It’s their dark side (we all have one, Nice Guy or not). Some like your good self acknowledge their Shadow and for sure once its acknowledged it can be worked on and improved. In fact Carl Jung who created the term reckon it’s in our Shadow where we’ll discover our biggest potentials for self improvement.


But there are other Nice Guys who either cannot see their Shadow and truly believe they are 100% Nice with no dark side (Shadow) whatsoever or who can see it but deny its very existence. These Nice Guys wear their Nice Guy label with honour, like a well won campaign medal and of course, unlike your good self they will never change because it’s everyone else who has the problems.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Mrs Losing has clearly described what she believes Losing’s Nice Guy Shadow is. At least how she sees it, others will see him perhaps very differently. She sure didn’t do it with grace, but she did it and in no uncertain terms. That makes her a Rhino.

Rhino = Overt Anger and Overt Aggression


Nice Guys don’t do that stuff. They keep it all in them and never assert themselves for a whole variety of reasons. They don’t like asserting their needs, they don’t like confronting their issues and they will avoid conflict at all costs. That makes them the Hedgehog.

Hedgehog = Covert Anger and Covert Aggression


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

alphaomega said:


> This kind of resentment doesn't just come from being a nice guy, unless of course she is a psycho beatch.
> 
> This kind of resentment comes from a very dangerous combination of personality. Nice Guy with Passive Agressive. and maybe throw in a bit of depression and low self worth.


Well I disagree with you there. Her anger and aggression is head on, open and overt. Her anger and aggression is traceable, Loser knows who it’s come from. Her aggression is not “deniable”, “It wasn’t me who wrote that” is obviously not the truth of the matter.


That is the exact opposite of how a passive aggressive would have expressed their anger and aggression. PA’s have covert anger and covert aggression. They think things through and plan them out. Such that their anger is deniable and is not traceable. They manipulate someone else to carry out their anger and aggression on their target and do it in ways that are not traceable, ways that are unseen and deniable.


Loser as the Hedgehog sure did get her as the Rhino into a rage and she sure was capable of getting into one. But at least he’s seen that although it may well be way too late for him.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Lon said:


> This is what happens when a man submits the control over his own life to his W, when he is looking for someone to lead him and no one steps up to do that. He becomes a shell of a person - his co-dependency has enabled him to hand over his heart to his partner as he sits there and waits what to be told to do, and if she doesn't recognize what she is holding it happens just like this OP.
> 
> This is why the guys in men's clubhouse are so adamant about manning up, it is the responsibility that goes along with being male in this world. In certain subsets a matriarchal system may work, but our society is quite the opposite of matriarchal. Men lead, and if not they better find the damn rare gem of a woman who actually enjoys the leadership role of the household.


Don’t know so much about that, who leads in a marriage and that it must always be the male. I think joint leadership really is the way to go. But that means joint dreams, goals, objectives, value systems etc.

I think what Mrs Losing has expressed is that her H has in many ways been a “passenger” in their marriage, perhaps like a disconnected, disinterested, two faced lodger and maybe not even paying his way.


He does need to take note of and defend his strengths, just like SimplyAmorous says, while at the same time listen to and work on his weaknesses because for sure he’ll have both just like the rest of us.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Lon said:


> uh, no it fits the typical "nice guy married typical woman who loved him cause he was kind and courteous but eventually learned she could treat him like crap and he would just keep taking it, eventually she just needed someone to give her tough love and she can't handle getting off scott free anymore and let it all out by unleashing all her frustrations of never having a man who would keep her immaturity in check for her so cut him deep as she knew how by loading her hurtful vitriol with as much truth as she could muster"


Kind and courteous works to a degree and are exceptionally good social skills. In fact kind and courteous gets you very well liked, because you are seen as “Nice”, which for sure seems to be perhaps the main objective in a Nice Guy’s life.

Some Nice Guys wear that Nice Guy badge as though it’s a Medal of Honour. These are the ones that just don’t get it or are in total denial.

I’m sure you know it takes a whole lot more than kind and courteous to make a marriage work.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Lon said:


> This is what happens when a man submits the control over his own life to his W, when he is looking for someone to lead him and no one steps up to do that. He becomes a shell of a person - his co-dependency has enabled him to hand over his heart to his partner as he sits there and waits what to be told to do, and if she doesn't recognize what she is holding it happens just like this OP.
> 
> This is why the guys in men's clubhouse are so adamant about manning up, it is the responsibility that goes along with being male in this world. In certain subsets a matriarchal system may work, but our society is quite the opposite of matriarchal. Men lead, and if not *they better find the damn rare gem of a woman who actually enjoys the leadership role of the household.*


You know that speaks Volumes? It speaks of the type of woman you like and want. But that very woman will be assertive, confrontational and she will go into conflict. She may even been dominant and domineering. And those are the things you don’t like about people because they are Not Nice!

I’d guess you’re exceedingly conflicted inside of you. What do you do as the passive, kind and courteous Nice Guy to find such a woman? Surely it’ll be the woman “out on the hunt” that finds you, rather than you going out of your way, asserting yourself, taking risks and finding her.


Don’t get me wrong here. My wife was a Nice Woman with exceptionally fine qualities and as such I truly treasured her. But they do have a very deep and very dark side to them that they just cannot see or are in deep denial about and so they never change until it’s way too late and they’ve had their supposed “Epiphany Moment” and even in that they can be dishonest and manipulative in order to win you back.


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## Losing (Jul 30, 2012)

Well, I haven't been in my thread for a few days because I've been concentrating on working on myself, my weaknesses AND my marriage.

It wasn't too late. She was crying out for what she's been asking for all along... a confident, strong, caring man to comfort her, talk to her and be there for her.

We talked a few days ago because I came home from work, walked straight up to her, sat down next to her and started talking. It wasn't as hard as I'd let myself believe over the years. It was easy in fact. And she was responsive to it because I was confident. The next night we fooled around like teenagers for hours. 

Yesterday we were texting while I was at work and there was too much talk about us, our issues, my issues and she feared I was going to let us have a text relationship again (only way I talked to her previously). She got angry. She was to go out with her girlfriend that night (already planned). I stopped texting at that point and when I got home from work I went straight over to her and confidently told her that I wasn't going to let her leave mad. We talked for 20 minutes or so until everything was aired. We still have a lot of past issues to deal with so she didn't leave happy but she didn't leave mad, she left feeling okay.

She normally comes home late when she goes out with her girlfriend, she came home after only a few hours. She reluctantly told me that she had told her girlfriend before she even went out that she didn't want to go because she didn't want to leave me.

I have a lot of work to do on myself but I am seeing the benefits already of manning up. And it isn't that hard to do. In fact it feels much more natural than what I had been doing before.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Losing said:


> Well, I haven't been in my thread for a few days because I've been concentrating on working on myself, my weaknesses AND my marriage.
> 
> It wasn't too late. She was crying out for what she's been asking for all along... a confident, strong, caring man to comfort her, talk to her and be there for her.
> 
> ...


Great news so far. I think you guys are far from being out of the woods, but as long as you keep connecting with her face to face then I think you guys will make it in the end. Also, communication is key and whenever something is bothering you about her, you must be forthright and tell her honestly. That's part of the frustration that your wife had with you, that you wouldn't give her feedback too. I think deep down she wants to please you every bit as much as you want to please her. 

I do have to ask though; the e-mail in the OP... is that how you wife normally interacted with you throughout the marriage or was this her hitting her limit and she lashed out in a mean, vitriolic way?


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## Losing (Jul 30, 2012)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Great news so far. I think you guys are far from being out of the woods, but as long as you keep connecting with her face to face then I think you guys will make it in the end. Also, communication is key and whenever something is bothering you about her, you must be forthright and tell her honestly. That's part of the frustration that your wife had with you, that you wouldn't give her feedback too. I think deep down she wants to please you every bit as much as you want to please her.
> 
> I do have to ask though; the e-mail in the OP... is that how you wife normally interacted with you throughout the marriage or was this her hitting her limit and she lashed out in a mean, vitriolic way?


Thanks for responding and yes, you are right, FAR from being out of the woods. I have years of neglect to show her won't happen again. And I have a lot of work to do on me. I can't get lazy with myself or my marriage again or I will lose her.

As for your question, she had told me all of our issues and her needs many times before this but I still failed to meet them. She is a very calm person and very accepting of things but she had put up with this for years when she sent this email. I'm not trying to make excuses for her, I'm trying to explain what kind of person she is. She was at her limit and I don't blame her.

I have a long way to go but I'm enjoying the ride and the changes that I've already noticed in myself. Now I have to work to make them permanent!


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

AFEH said:


> You know that speaks Volumes? It speaks of the type of woman you like and want. But that very woman will be assertive, confrontational and she will go into conflict. She may even been dominant and domineering. And those are the things you don’t like about people because they are Not Nice!


It's not the kind of woman I like and want, but its the kind I felt like I needed in order to make a relationship/family function. And I was wanting a woman to be assertive and dominant, I can even handle vast amounts of b1tchiness - the conflict was the only thing that was probably not nice and that is what I would deal with it in the passive way. I never needed her to be nice though, at least not to me, I felt like I had plenty of that for the both of us.

Yes, I suppose I cast a huge shadow, I like your description... I think I was even aware of it and my goal always seemed to be to get people to not live there, (either by hiding it, diverting their attention or staying behind them) but my ex seemed to be attracted to the dark and always wanted to live there, whereas I was trying to leave the shadow behind me and just keep looking forward. I guess I had accepted my own duality and expected that she had too, and was frustrated that nobody could accept all of me for who I was - the way a nice guy copes when someone doesn't accept him, is by separating the good from the bad and trying to manipulate others to only see the good.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Losing said:


> Thanks for responding and yes, you are right, FAR from being out of the woods. I have years of neglect to show her won't happen again. And I have a lot of work to do on me. I can't get lazy with myself or my marriage again or I will lose her.
> 
> As for your question, she had told me all of our issues and her needs many times before this but I still failed to meet them. She is a very calm person and very accepting of things but she had put up with this for years when she sent this email. I'm not trying to make excuses for her, I'm trying to explain what kind of person she is. She was at her limit and I don't blame her.
> 
> I have a long way to go but I'm enjoying the ride and the changes that I've already noticed in myself. Now I have to work to make them permanent!


Good to hear. But I wouldn't be afraid to let your wife know about things you would like her to work on. Reclaiming a marriage and strengthening it takes 2 people. It's good that you know what you need to work on, but I would give her some homework too. That lets her know that you are serious about making the marriage stronger and that you also won't be content to merely sit back in the bushes. Your wife wants your input about how she can become a better person too.


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## Cre8ify (Feb 1, 2012)

A harsh as her invective e-mail is, there is candor and some truth buried in there among the raw emotions. When we receive this type of information in life we can consider it a gift. The way we validate that gift is to let it sink in and see where it guides us. It can guide us to be a better man, father, and friend. I have this article printed and read it often as a mantra.

How to Be a Man

There are serious responsibilities associated with being a man and facing them down and embracing them makes a man stronger, more trustworthy, more content, and a decidedly better husband.


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## Losing (Jul 30, 2012)

Cre8ify said:


> A harsh as her invective e-mail is, there is candor and some truth buried in there among the raw emotions. When we receive this type of information in life we can consider it a gift. The way we validate that gift is to let it sink in and see where it guides us. It can guide us to be a better man, father, and friend. I have this article printed and read it often as a mantra.
> 
> How to Be a Man
> 
> There are serious responsibilities associated with being a man and facing them down and embracing them makes a man stronger, more trustworthy, more content, and a decidedly better husband.


Thanks for that link. The article embodies a lot of what I've been working on in myself and I plan to reread it also!


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I don't like treating someone's real-life, and painful circumstances like critiquing a movie or sports event ... but the impression I was left with overall, is that she wanted an invested partner, and at times a *leader*

And for many, many guys, that never even crosses their radar. It didn't cross mine. I tried to make everything a collective, or deference decision. And when it comes down to it ... that is neither what my ex wanted, or needed to maintain a feeling of stability and security. And that wasn't something that men can readily understand, nor are most women prepared to articulate, given that roles in marriage have become so ... confusing.

In my now single life, I steer ... all the time. And 90% of the time, the women I am involved with, love it. More than a few have commented on how much they like it and that their ex's NEVER did it.

I feel bad for both the OP and his wife. Under all the crap ... I think they are still invested in one another. But there is simply too much in the way to allow a healthy balance.



nomoretogive said:


> Obviously, we'll never know the whole story and there's been lots of great speculation on this thread -- lots of points that are so dead-on it's scary how smart everyone here is -- but I too wonder if this closer to what happened than some of the other suggestions about an alpha b!tch gone rogue.
> 
> As I read the letter from his wife -- as unsexy and harsh as it was -- I found myself wishing I was able to sum up my marriage with my husband so well, minus the serial killer part. My husband was just like the OP: For years, he was emotionally unavailable, just out of reach, and didn't meet any of my needs. I kept trying harder and harder; kept telling him that I needed him to meet me in the middle. He would "yes, dear" me, act like he understood what I was talking about, and then go back to acting as though I was nothing. Nor did he have any goals, ambitions, life plans -- just nothing; like he was empty inside -- besides getting through the day.
> 
> ...


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

I disagree. I did not see anything that would indicate that this is a lost cause. The only thing I saw was a woman trying her hardest to convey her point to her husband. Unfortunately she had to play the divorce card and blasted him with a nasty e-mail. However, I don't think she really wants the divorce and that she lashed out because of her frustration level. She blew up basically. Both have a solid chance IMO provided that Losing improves his self esteem, his assertiveness and his communication skills. Also, he needs to tell her what she needs to work on in honest, direct yet respectful tones.



Deejo said:


> I don't like treating someone's real-life, and painful circumstances like critiquing a movie or sports event ... but the impression I was left with overall, is that she wanted an invested partner, and at times a *leader*
> 
> And for many, many guys, that never even crosses their radar. It didn't cross mine. I tried to make everything a collective, or deference decision. And when it comes down to it ... that is neither what my ex wanted, or needed to maintain a feeling of stability and security. And that wasn't something that men can readily understand, nor are most women prepared to articulate, given that roles in marriage have become so ... confusing.
> 
> ...


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Deejo said:


> ...I feel bad for both the OP and his wife. Under all the crap ... I think they are still invested in one another. But there is simply too much in the way to allow a healthy balance.


That's what I find so sad about all of this, they are still invested but one or both cant see through all the crap and believe its just gone forever rather than pushing through it. That is what made me so frustrated and angry when my ex left, that regardless of whether we stayed together or not we still each have our own issues to solve anyway, and throwing away the relationship is not part of the actual solution, it is merely one way to help untangle the separate issues, just as MC can be, or certain books, or other methods of therapy. Such a waste of something I believe is sacred.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Both have a solid chance IMO provided that Losing improves his self esteem, his assertiveness and his communication skills. Also, he needs to tell her what she needs to work on in honest, direct yet respectful tones.


They both need, and expect the other to _change_, and that can be a very toxic word if both parties are not heavily invested in making those changes.

Where I came to terms in my broken marriage? I stopped expecting her to change. It was unfair. And unrealistic. 

I DID change ... and she didn't like it. We were at an impasse, with only one real option left ... and we took it.

And that is what every Nice Guy needs to be prepared to face.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Lon said:


> That's what I find so sad about all of this, they are still invested but one or both cant see through all the crap and believe its just gone forever rather than pushing through it. That is what made me so frustrated and angry when my ex left, that regardless of whether we stayed together or not we still each have our own issues to solve anyway, and throwing away the relationship is not part of the actual solution, it is merely one way to help untangle the separate issues, just as MC can be, or certain books, or other methods of therapy. Such a waste of something I believe is sacred.


I find it really interesting to “see” the other side of these things. My empathy is something like 80% with Mrs Losing and 20% (if that) with Losing. And that’s because I so relate with what she expresses in her email to him.

Passive Hedgehog types cannot conceive of the massive amounts of frustration and anger that build up inside the Rhino. A Rhino will assert themselves and directly confront issues and they will go into conflict if confronting the issue doesn’t get it resolved.

But the passive Hedgehog just ducks and dives, stonewalls, avoids and blame shifts, suppresses and ignores and hopes the problems will go away. But they don’t. They just sit there simmering unresolved. And over time all the issues pile up until the Rhino feels like he/she is literally faced with a whole stack of unresolved issues that prevent any forward movement whatsoever and hence they “explode”, sometimes into a rage. And the Hedgehog sits there like a rabbit in headlights thinking oh shet what’s going to happen next.

Rhino’s don’t do resentment, they don’t do covert anger or covert aggression and they don’t do revenge. They have no need for revenge because unlike the Hedgehog, the Rhino gets the problems in front of them sorted at the time they happen. Or at least they try to until they discover it’s not been sorted because the Hedgehog buried them all.


And then one day the Rhino knows for a fact that the problems between him/her and the Hedgehog are many and totally and utterly irresolvable and so they walk or run away to pastures new.


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## Goldmember357 (Jan 31, 2012)

these books destroy people

just be yourself

everything else is something you create in order to categorize yourself.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Bob, people are not all hedgehog, or all rhino. I used to have a hedgehog and when she could bite when she needed to - didn't always just ball up... and I'm sure there are timid rhinos out there too. I get that it is an analogy, but the model only works at the extreme theoretical ends of the spectrum, while in reality human relationships are all give and take. So I have a lot more empathy for Mr. Losing than you do, because even though he was holding more resentment, he was also the giver in the relationship, while his W may be able to put her heart on her sleeve her selfishness also caused a good portion of her own frustration, and she can't be absolved simply because her H was the blockage most of the time, because in a real relationship she wasn't the perfect rhino you seem to admire, she DID hold onto resentment and have covert expectations as well, she is just less capable of dealing with it (the nature of the beast). It is 50/50, which is why her letter was too harsh.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

There’s obviously massive conflict in their relationship. And the conflict is not to do with just one issue but a whole pile of unresolved issues from the past.

For those of us who are Rhinos, we don’t see these things as “problems” per se but as opportunities. These issues and their conflicts are opportunities for us to learn and grow and opportunities to get to know our secretive Hedgehog partner better, opportunities to deepen and strengthen the relationship between the two of us.

But that secretive Hedgehog simply does not see conflict in the same way. Instead for them conflict is something to be avoided wherever possible and at all times. So instead of the issue creating the problem between them being confronted and resolved even if it means going into conflict, that Hedgehog just buries the issue such that it’s never resolved.

And guess what? The more the Rhino confronts and challenges the Hedgehog the more tightly it rolls up into it’s prickly ball. But it’s an amazingly bond building relationship and one where it seems the Rhino deeply needs the Hedgehog and the Hedgehog deeply needs the Rhino.

For the Rhino, the extroverted brave one going out into the world and leading and creating, the Hedgehog represents its stability, its peace and harmony, its warmth and comfort, its consistency. For the introverted, reticent, somewhat shy, cautious, unambitious, perfectionist, non risk taking Hedgehog the Rhino represents strength, leadership, dynamism, passion, excitement, safety and security.

These things are what I like so much about the program at The Marriage Course - Explore Alpha Marriage Course | Alpha USA. They talk of these things. Most especially about how to resolve conflict between the Rhino and the Hedgehog but many other, deep and fundamental things as well.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Lon said:


> Bob, people are not all hedgehog, or all rhino. I used to have a hedgehog and when she could bite when she needed to - didn't always just ball up... and I'm sure there are timid rhinos out there too. I get that it is an analogy, but the model only works at the extreme theoretical ends of the spectrum, while in reality human relationships are all give and take. So I have a lot more empathy for Mr. Losing than you do, because even though he was holding more resentment, he was also the giver in the relationship, while his W may be able to put her heart on her sleeve her selfishness also caused a good portion of her own frustration, and she can't be absolved simply because her H was the blockage most of the time, because in a real relationship she wasn't the perfect rhino you seem to admire, she DID hold onto resentment and have covert expectations as well, she is just less capable of dealing with it (the nature of the beast). It is 50/50, which is why her letter was too harsh.


I’d imagine there are timid Rhinos out there, probably about 2% of the total population ala your MB profile. But a timid Rhino isn’t a Rhino is he? He’s something else, a sheep in wolves clothing or the opposite. Surely a timid Rhino is a Rhino pretending to be something he isn’t. He’s most certainly not a Rhino. In another thread I mentioned I see you as a guy with very big potential but you have to do something to realise it!

It’s like that Lion raised by Sheep. It takes another Lion to come along and say something like “WTF are you doing here baaing amongst these Sheep?. For goodness sake wake up and roar like a Lion” and off they trot together. It’s strange these things. Like the people who say a Leopard cannot change its spots. I say maybe not (although it most certainly uses camouflage!), but it sure can change its behaviour. 


For me you are missing the point re conflict and its resolution. In these things there are the ways of the Rhino and the ways of the Hedgehog. Both are far better served by finding good ways of confronting and resolving the issues and conflicts between them. Loser obviously hoped they’d just go away!


You think I admire the Rhino? Being a Rhino with a great interest in psychology I know a lot about my shadow. But I don’t know all of my shadow as seen by my wife, simply because she’s a Hedgehog and as such avoided asserting herself and confronting the issues she had with me.

And because you think I admire the Rhino does that mean you think I didn’t admire my wife the Hedgehog? She was my opposite and as such I had an inordinate amount of love, admiration and respect for her that lasted nearly 4 decades.

But to stay with her would have kept forcing me into Rhino mode because she was forever going to stay the Hedgehog!


Btw how on earth do you know Loser is the giver in the relationship? He has said he seriously dropped the ball, well multiple balls. Doesn't sound like a giver to me!


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## lovingsummer (Jul 27, 2012)

Ok, I'm really new to this forum but this is so interesting. My H is a "nice guy" I think and this has been a problem in our marriage. I say I think because he has a lot of the nice guy traits that you are all talking about however he is also a little controlling (more in a passive aggressive way). I'm not sure what to do about it. We've been together for 20 years (he was 17, I was 20) and he has been this way 90% of our relationship. He avoids, ducks, weaves, etc. all conflict with the "avoid it and it will go away" mentality. I love the fact that he rarely yells at me, has never called me a name (with the exception of telling I was being a b!tch once) even though I have been probably a million times, I know he would never let anyone hurt me, he works so hard for our family. The problem is the lack of emotion or emotional response from him (including love) I never know what is going on in his mind. I never know if his silence is because he's stressed about something, thinking of something good/bad??? I just don't know. I was raised in a house that if you had a problem, it was put out there and dealt with, get it out and over with - move on. He was raised in a house where if you have a problem with someone, you ignore the person until you no longer feel angry then start talking to them like nothing ever happened. (They still do that to this day... drives me nuts) Anyway, can somebody tell me what I can do, if anything to help my H in this process. I have told him my wants/needs/desires in a kinder way than the email, we've come very close to divorce where I just wanted out because I felt like I was losing my mind. We're working through it and I see some progress but there's been progress before for a short time and then back to the same. Is this something that he has to do for himself alone? I have told him that I feel like I'm trying to force him to be somebody/something that he doesn't want to be and that's not fair of me to do for my own happiness. I feel so selfish for even asking him to change who he is, I want to be with him but I'm tired, I feel like I can't carry him anymore in this marriage. He said he wants to change but I don't think he even knows where to start. He is not a reader so is any of this stuff on audio book? Do I just keep waiting and hoping while feeling let down for longer? I know the more I push the more he shuts down... then my frustration, anger, resentment (what I consider my irrational mind) takes over then the fight is on.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

lovingsummer said:


> Ok, I'm really new to this forum but this is so interesting. My H is a "nice guy" I think and this has been a problem in our marriage. I say I think because he has a lot of the nice guy traits that you are all talking about however he is also a little controlling (more in a passive aggressive way). I'm not sure what to do about it. We've been together for 20 years (he was 17, I was 20) and he has been this way 90% of our relationship. He avoids, ducks, weaves, etc. all conflict with the "avoid it and it will go away" mentality. I love the fact that he rarely yells at me, has never called me a name (with the exception of telling I was being a b!tch once) even though I have been probably a million times, I know he would never let anyone hurt me, he works so hard for our family. The problem is the lack of emotion or emotional response from him (including love) I never know what is going on in his mind. I never know if his silence is because he's stressed about something, thinking of something good/bad??? I just don't know. I was raised in a house that if you had a problem, it was put out there and dealt with, get it out and over with - move on. He was raised in a house where if you have a problem with someone, you ignore the person until you no longer feel angry then start talking to them like nothing ever happened. (They still do that to this day... drives me nuts) Anyway, can somebody tell me what I can do, if anything to help my H in this process. I have told him my wants/needs/desires in a kinder way than the email, we've come very close to divorce where I just wanted out because I felt like I was losing my mind. We're working through it and I see some progress but there's been progress before for a short time and then back to the same. Is this something that he has to do for himself alone? I have told him that I feel like I'm trying to force him to be somebody/something that he doesn't want to be and that's not fair of me to do for my own happiness. I feel so selfish for even asking him to change who he is, I want to be with him but I'm tired, I feel like I can't carry him anymore in this marriage. He said he wants to change but I don't think he even knows where to start. He is not a reader so is any of this stuff on audio book? Do I just keep waiting and hoping while feeling let down for longer? I know the more I push the more he shuts down... then my frustration, anger, resentment (what I consider my irrational mind) takes over then the fight is on.


I never thought of myself as asking my wife to change who she was. I did though ask and expected her to learn and adopt new ways of doing things. Most especially how to resolve the conflicts between us. This is more to do with who I am, in that I constantly look for ways of doing the same things but in better ways. This is to do with me as a person, photography, growing vegetables, anything that I do. I just expected and expect others to be the same and I’m still quite surprised when I find they’re not.

But from my wife’s perspective I was indeed asking her to change and from her response at times, to change who she was at her very core. I never did see it that way but I think she may well have been right.

But these Nice Guys (females too) are not good at asserting themselves, avoid confrontation and avoid conflict at all costs. But that does not at all mean that they don’t have thoughts that are Not Nice, it does not mean that they don’t have beliefs, values and behaviour that are Not Nice because just like everyone else on the planet they sure as heck do.

And it’s in there that lays their duplicity, their two faced nature. They’ll smile at you such that you believe everything is ok when in fact everything is far from ok. When you ask them what’s up they will convince you that nothing is up at all. But your instincts and intuition will tell you the exact opposite and hence you feel you are going crazy and losing your mind.


Personally I don’t think there is anything you can do to change him. His behaviour is locked in from his childhood, like reinforced concrete. It’s how he manages and processes his world.

What I would do is book yourselves on The Marriage Course - Explore Alpha Marriage Course | Alpha USA. Because it’s here they know about the Hedgehog and the Rhino, the effect of our childhood on our marriage, the value of forgiveness and effective conflict resolution processes and very much more. Take a look at the Session Topics in Alpha USA : Find Out More About the Course. 

Your Hedgehog will not want to talk openly about his problems with you even in a private room with a marriage counsellor, that is way too public a place for him. The course above requires no participation at all and so is ideal for that type of person. He will learn of better ways of doing things and hopefully from what he learns he will change. It will be slow but once a Hedgehog gets their teeth in to something they want to do they tend to become experts at it.



It’s getting him to have some epiphany moments that’s key and having someone else (most definitely not your good self) demonstrate and show him the way. Hedgehogs go with who they believe are the “experts”. They place a great deal of trust and authority in them. You need to get him in front of the experts in these things.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

AFEH said:


> For the Rhino, the extroverted brave one going out into the world and leading and creating, the Hedgehog represents its stability, its peace and harmony, its warmth and comfort, its consistency. For the introverted, reticent, somewhat shy, cautious, unambitious, perfectionist, non risk taking Hedgehog the Rhino represents strength, leadership, dynamism, passion, excitement, safety and security.


I see value in the RHINO & the HEDGEHOG... one is not better than the other, they both bring something very needed to the relationship...and if there is Respect, Love & understanding of each other.....these make for the best marraiges ... though I am very biased ...

There is no doubt I am the Rhino in ours....and my husband is one of these Hedgehogs...I do not hold resentment nor revenge....there is no grass that grows under my feet to tackle an issue, I love to brainstorm such...and IF I get wholly steamed due to what I feel is unfair treatment... I could do a nice running with an Angry truck driver, I can be a force to be reckoned with (so my husband says- he likes seeing this when I am dealing with someone else, customer service or getting a wrong made right). 

I often refer to my husband as a "Nice Guy" on here, but the more I am reading ...I don't think he was ever too awful bad...as I've never had to lay into him or felt anything like this woman. He wasn't passive aggressive - just pleasantly passive... so long as I was alert , being sensitive to HIS FEELINGS, not taking him for granted....he made it a living breeze to pull things out of him.... I just needed to be intune with his leaning to not offend, keeping the peace ....even when a little more assertiveness would have been "healthier" for his own needs. 

I can't say he ducked issues either, once I opened the dialog...even if a little harsh at times .....He was as honest as MY spilling it -laying it out there, whether I wanted to hear it or not (which I so appreciate!!), so I guess my Hedgehog had enough "Man" in him to not roll over into a ball, cover his ears, play nice just to shoo me away ....which kept me from becoming a MAD woman anyway. 


It seems this Husband, and again, nothing wrong with being a Hedgehog (notice the wonderful qualities they DO posses that AFEH laid out above)..... but somewhere he took a turn for the worse & the ball rolling became chronic....he was going through marraige like this >>>







.....a sheild over his genuine emotions.... the good along with the bad, hiding who he was at every turn, she was living with a ghost of a man....hollow, wandering, avoiding life itself -lacking any depth , feeling, needing, desiring. This would be worse than living with a roommate. 

I would assume earlier in their marriage, things were "working"... but somewhere along the line, with his ball rolling....she became a volcanic Rhino ...which further exaggerated the Flames they now find themselves in. 

Both failing miserably to use their "in born" strengths to build each other up...instead operating full swing in their weaknesses...always a Lose/ Lose for restoration & understanding of each other.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

I'm not sure the Rhino/Hedgehog thing is the best analogy, it has some value, but the idea that people are programmed one way or the other is phooey to me. But then I suppose I'm the hedgehog for thinking that.

But using this metaphor, in the case of Mr and Mrs Losing, if she's a rhino, she's been too focussed trying to run over him then getting annoyed by being pricked in the feet, so it really isn't him to blame then, he's just protecting himself the only way he can and she needs to find something other than her partner to take a run at if she wants to solve her issues.


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Lon,

That doesn't sound like your wife was a hedgehog. That sounds like wolverine to me....

Happily going about her business until you cross a boundary and then all ape shat breaks loose!


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Lon said:


> I'm not sure the Rhino/Hedgehog thing is the best analogy, it has some value, but the idea that people are programmed one way or the other is phooey to me. But then I suppose I'm the hedgehog for thinking that.
> 
> But using this metaphor, in the case of Mr and Mrs Losing, if she's a rhino, she's been too focussed trying to run over him then getting annoyed by being pricked in the feet, so it really isn't him to blame then, he's just protecting himself the only way he can and she needs to find something other than her partner to take a run at if she wants to solve her issues.


Geesh you don’t like this, you don’t like that talk about Mr Negative but you never come out with any original solutions yourself.

So come on Lon. Mr Losing wants right back with his wife. That’s what he wants. How does he do that? How does he get her right back and take his relationship from where it is now, say a two out of ten, up to say a seven out of ten.

What’s your plan Lon? What’s your process for Mr Losing. How does he go about it all? What do you recommend? Or does he do as you seem to be saying just give up and dump his wife?


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

alphaomega said:


> Lon,
> 
> That doesn't sound like your wife was a hedgehog. That sounds like wolverine to me....
> 
> Happily going about her business until you cross a boundary and then all ape shat breaks loose!


no, if anyone fits the hedgehog metaphor in my marriage it was me. She was no hedgehog. Not really a rhino either though, more like a coyote, doing her own thing, occasionally mistaken for a fox, not afraid to appear but afraid to get close, yet still a carnivore that is waiting for someone else to make a mistake so she could eat.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

AFEH said:


> Geesh you don’t like this, you don’t like that talk about Mr Negative but you never come out with any original solutions yourself.
> 
> So come on Lon. Mr Losing wants right back with his wife. That’s what he wants. How does he do that? How does he get her right back and take his relationship from where it is now, say a two out of ten, up to say a seven out of ten.
> 
> What’s your plan Lon? What’s your process for Mr Losing. How does he go about it all? What do you recommend? Or does he do as you seem to be saying just give up and dump his wife?


Well, nothing "original" but like I said on page 1:



> Those words hurt because there is a shred of truth to them, but I'm a nice guy too and there is nothing wrong with genuine contentment, and she had a golden opportunity to negotiate a marriage that would include all her needs and if she was the kind of person who could look deeper inside you she may see that having charge over your own life does not always have to smell like pure raw ambition. She lost respect and attraction for you because she really didn't put in the effort to love who you really are.
> 
> Now I agree with others that you (just as I do) have a journey ahead of you to create the life you want, especially when you get frustrated about the way certain things don't seem to go your way - you have to make those opportunites not just take them - but you will always have your core values no matter if you are with someone who can't see the goldmine she was sitting on.
> 
> Honestly some hard work on your part to grow past your comfort zone and fear of imposition, and you will realize that you already posess the same qualities you see in her - she is not and has never been above you, just been led to think she is by, I presume, a stream of fitness tests that nobody ever trained you how to pass, and which your goal is now to identify before giving away your love to readily to those unworthy. you are not a shell of a man like she has you convinced, you are just struggling to recognize your own worth - believe me these words have so much meaning to me too, because it is the ONE big challenge this world has given me to tackle for myself.


He can't get his W back, not his choice, he can get his own self-worth back. He has to prepare himself to let her go, if she wants to run right through him all the time, he has to get out of her way or let her keep running so he can tend to his own garden and invite nicer critters into it. He can't tame a rhino, his W has to want to be there and the only way that is possible is to be himself which will only happen if she's no longer treading all over him.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Lon said:


> Well, nothing "original" but like I said on page 1:
> 
> 
> 
> He can't get his W back, not his choice, he can get his own self-worth back. He has to prepare himself to let her go, if she wants to run right through him all the time, he has to get out of her way or let her keep running so he can tend to his own garden and invite nicer critters into it. He can't tame a rhino, his W has to want to be there and the only way that is possible is to be himself which will only happen if she's no longer treading all over him.


Well here we sit on opposing sides of the fence. Your sympathies are with Mr Losing while mine are with Mrs Losing.

What I don’t think you are understanding is that anger rises from a variety of sources, mostly from being wounded and frustrated. To express that amount of anger, I say Mrs Losing has been deeply wounded and is immensely frustrated.

But there’s more. In that to be that deeply wounded in order to express that much anger she must deeply love Mr Losing. If he hasn’t managed to kill her love for him off by now.


Hers is an overt anger. It’s right there in your face. And it has an awful lot going for it. It demonstrates a massive amount of independence “When I needed you, you seriously weren’t there for me. I’m done”. It demonstrates a massive amount of movement and immense passion to make things move. To literally try and force an unchanging person to change, if they are up for the challenge. Not that right way but at least a way. And it’s tremendously risky, even ending the marriage with a guy she loves and while she still has dependent children. What a woman!



On the other hand Mrs Losing could have had an exit strategy which may have included an exit affair. She could have been all passive aggressive and set out to get her revenge on Mr Losing with passive, covert aggression. She could have driven the guy nuts by playing with his mind over the coming years.

As far as we know she didn’t do any of that. What she did do was express her anger and inner most thoughts and feelings although in somewhat unsavoury ways. She’s certainly no Mrs Nice Woman. Way to up front and open for that.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Lon said:


> *He can't get his W back, not his choice, he can get his own self-worth back.* He has to prepare himself to let her go, if she wants to run right through him all the time, he has to get out of her way or let her keep running so he can tend to his own garden and invite nicer critters into it. He can't tame a rhino, his W has to want to be there and the only way that is possible is to be himself which will only happen if she's no longer treading all over him.


I guess you know that is massively negative, defeatist, pessimistic?

Maybe you don’t?


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

bob I think we're not going to agree on this, going nowhere discussing it, I don't see how it is pessimistic to give the OP acknowledgement that it is ok for him to accept himself for who he is.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Lon said:


> bob I think we're not going to agree on this, going nowhere discussing it, I don't see how it is pessimistic to give the OP acknowledgement that it is ok for him to accept himself for who he is.


Good for you and whatever you do, don't you go and change yourself.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

AFEH said:


> Good for you and whatever you do, don't you go and change yourself.


Never wanted to change _myself_, I like myself and pretty much always have. I just want to find a better _approach_ to make the most of my own life, because the way I've always approached life has ultimately resulted in unsatisfactory results thus far - Just like Losing, I suspect.


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