# At the End of My Rope ...



## kmw51561

First post and I have a doozy:

I've been married over 20 years. Was with this woman for 5 years before that. 25 years together. In the last three or so years, I've tried to leave twice and was convinced to stay and work it out. I love my wife. I do. We have a home, three kids and a great life. I've been faithful to her our entire marriage. But I am -- and have been for some time -- at the end of my rope.

The fact is, my wife and I have NEVER been sexually compatible. She knows what she likes and she's not interested in anything else. And what my wife likes is intercourse in the missionary position. I don't begrudge her that, but I'm a very spontaneous guy in the bedroom. Anything and everything should be fair game. But my wife isn't interested in manual sex, oral sex. She won't even dry hump. As far as she's concerned, any and all sexual contact has to lead to intercourse.

I've long lamented the idea that I've spent the last two decades of my life suppressing my sexual desire. It's the reason I've tried to leave. And it sounds selfish as hell. But the idea I'm going to spend what may be the last 20 years of my life continuing to suppress my desires is starting to drive my crazy. Which has put me on a short fuse with her.

I've suggested counseling in the past. But my wife is dead set against it. She's one of those people who believes she's always right and that any problem in her life is someone else's fault. i.e., if there's a problem in the bedroom it's me, not her. And there's no way in heck she's going to stand in front of a impartial mediator who may not agree with her. (Whenever our kids agree with me, and not her, she calls them 'rude' and 'ungrateful.' My wife NEEDS to be the one that's right all the time.)

Now the truth is I'm seriously contemplating divorce. Seriously. And here's why: the other day she asked me to tell her about a sexual fantasy and I did. It was so simple. I'd love to see her perform oral sex on me. She hates doing it, but she agreed to. I spent the entire day in anticipation of it. Then that night, she only agreed to do it if I simulated oral sex on a dildo. I thought that was unfair. I have no desire to pretend to perform oral sex on a penis. She used that as an excuse to not follow through on her promise. It was essentially the last straw. I realized this woman will never make me happy sexually and feels no need to. I can either accept that or do something about it.

I've spent the last four hours looking for an affordable marriage counselor (I've been out of work over a year and can't really pay for it), but like I said, she wouldn't go with me anyway. But I'm willing to go alone. I've also tried to find some kind of free online counseling but it doesn't seem to exist. I've done some research on how to go about getting a quickie divorce. (Seems pretty simple if both parties are agreeable.)

Like I said, I've spent 20 years with this very controlling woman (we won't even get into that) who believes all I need in the bedroom is what she wants. I'm sick of it. I can't spend the rest of my life in this situation. Right now I know the day I die, one of the last thoughts to go through my head will be: I should have cheated.


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## dobo

I think you should show her this post. And then if she doesn't get it, I think you should follow through and divorce.


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## Deejo

Time out.
So ... she has no desire to branch out with you, but she owns a dildo?
Not that there is anything wrong with that, just seems more than a bit ironic given the circumstances.


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## dobo

Why do you assume it is hers?


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## Deejo

Because it's the correct assumption?

Unless of course, hubby purchased it for her unanounced in the hopes of being creative and she feigned revulsion. (but uses it when he isn't around anyway) 

Point is, she uses sex as a means of control, and the more frustrated he becomes, the further she can push her reasons for not wanting to engage, or maintain control over what does happen.

Regardless of the dildo - it's unbalanced and damaging. 

kmw51561, what was sex like before you got married? Is this par for the course throughout your relationship, or at some point was there a dramatic change?


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## joevn

The control issue seems central to what's currently happening. Need more data.


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## kmw51561

Deejo said:


> kmw51561, what was sex like before you got married? Is this par for the course throughout your relationship, or at some point was there a dramatic change?


That's the major issue. There has been no dramatic change. It's been pretty much exactly the way it is now since we met and married. 3 years into our courtship she told me she didn't appreciate performing oral sex and pretty much stopped. I was in love by then, perhaps hoping once she learned to appreciate that maybe she'd change her mind.

This is why I can't begrudge her. She hasn't changed. We're doing exactly what we were doing 20 years ago. Like I said, my wife knows exactly what she likes and wants and has no inclination to add, subtract or experiment. 

And, no, my wife doesn't own a dildo.  Years ago she spontaneously bought one when shopping with her sister. More curiosity than anything because it never even came out of the plastic packaging. She eventually threw it out out of fear the kids would find it. So for me to fulfill her request she'd have to buy one. But I'm starting to believe, now that a few days have past, she only started the argument to have a reason to not go through with her promise. Because I'm sure tomorrow if I asked for oral sex, she'd bring up what she wants first, I'd refuse ... back where we started.


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## MarkTwain

kmw51561-

I could give you a pointer or two, but you might not like it. How eager are you to get somewhere?


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## swedish

kmw51561 said:


> In the last three or so years, I've tried to leave twice and was convinced to stay and work it out.


Your wife convinced you to stay? If so, did she agree to take your needs into consideration as part of the deal to improve the marriage? If not, you may be letting her 'guilt' you into going back to the status quo. This is something you need to do differently if you want different results...ie. be more demanding about your needs...not just sexual, but that you are a partner and you have say in the marriage too.


kmw51561 said:


> the other day she asked me to tell her about a sexual fantasy and I did. It was so simple. I'd love to see her perform oral sex on me. She hates doing it, but she agreed to. I spent the entire day in anticipation of it. Then that night, she only agreed to do it if I simulated oral sex on a dildo. I thought that was unfair. I have no desire to pretend to perform oral sex on a penis. She used that as an excuse to not follow through on her promise.


That just sounds cruel to me. Why ask you about sexual fantasies and agree to it if you have no intention of following through? Her suggestion upping the anty is just plain BS. You actually came up with a very reasonable fantasy that is common in many relationships.

You say that you love her and your marriage is otherwise fine. My suggestion would be rather than start a discussion about sexual needs, start a discussion about the partnership you expect within marriage...that you are both responsible for meeting one another's needs...parenting, sexually, finances, etc. and are tired and resenting her needing to control the ship.


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## dobo

I think she was trying to make a point with the dildo remark. But she did a really crappy job of it, and further, she was indeed cruel. I think she was trying to say that if you wouldn't like doing it, why would she? You could have turned it around and told her you'd go down on her first as that would be more equivalent.

*anyhow* Deejo, you are obviously unaware that men too, use dildos.

But back to the OP -- Swedish is spot on. If she wants you to stay then she's got to pony up and make the marriage something worth staying in for you. 

It is a shame that she hasn't learned to enjoy you in all the ways you can be enjoyed.


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## kmw51561

MarkTwain said:


> kmw51561-
> 
> I could give you a pointer or two, but you might not like it. How eager are you to get somewhere?


I'm not sure what you mean by 'eager'.

Throw your ideas out there tho. I'd love to hear them.


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## kmw51561

swedish said:


> Your wife convinced you to stay? If so, did she agree to take your needs into consideration as part of the deal to improve the marriage? If not, you may be letting her 'guilt' you into going back to the status quo.


No, I've probably guilted myself into staying. I keep asking myself am I being selfish and thinking the grass is greener, yada, yada...

On those occasions, we never really had a conversation about how she would change because I didn't believe she would. We talk all the time about what's lacking in the bedroom and what I'd like. It just never comes to be. And like I said, she's only interested in intercourse. If we're getting busy asking her to go down on me, to her, would seem selfish because we're about to have sex anyway. My wife has a very narrow few of the many ways to pleasure a person.



swedish said:


> That just sounds cruel to me. Why ask you about sexual fantasies and agree to it if you have no intention of following through? Her suggestion upping the anty is just plain BS. You actually came up with a very reasonable fantasy that is common in many relationships.


That's what I thought. Cruel. Demeaning. Disrespectful.

It just stressed, to my mind, how little she cares about what I want and it's got me wondering why would I want to continue subjecting myself to it for another 25 years.



swedish said:


> You say that you love her and your marriage is otherwise fine. My suggestion would be rather than start a discussion about sexual needs, start a discussion about the partnership you expect within marriage...that you are both responsible for meeting one another's needs...parenting, sexually, finances, etc. and are tired and resenting her needing to control the ship.


As I said, we've had that discussion many, many, many times. She's told me oh so many times how she knows I'd love more oral sex in our lives. It just never happens.


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## kmw51561

Deejo said:


> kmw51561, what was sex like before you got married? Is this par for the course throughout your relationship, or at some point was there a dramatic change?


No, there has been no dramatic change. That's why I can't fault her. Even when we were dating hot and heavy, we were pretty much doing the exact same thing. Missionary. A speed and pace she's comfortable with. She never voluntarily went down on me and about three years into the relationship she told me she didn't really like doing it and stopped. So I have to take as much responsibility for our sex life. I went into it figuring as she came to appreciate me and our life together she'd loosen up. But she hasn't. Even today if I so much as speed up during sex, she stops me and wants to know what I think I'm doing.


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## dobo

"Even today if I so much as speed up during sex, she stops me and wants to know what I think I'm doing. "

What does she say exactly? What do you respond?


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## fullofanger

I have heard a saying that a married woman should be a lady in public and a **** in the bedroom(with her husband of course). Even if she is not comfortable with giving you oral sex(I understand) she should be open to at least other sexual positions. I have been a believer of trying things at least once because you never know, its one thing in your mind and another once you do it. Why haven't you cheated? Any other man would have by now. Do not limit your sexual fantasies because of her. Leave her and explore...with that said I can assure you the grass will be greener. Always practice safe sex though there are so many new sexually transmitted diseases since the last time you were in the market. Good Luck!


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## MarkTwain

kmw51561 said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by 'eager'.
> 
> Throw your ideas out there tho. I'd love to hear them.


I mean, it is going to be as much an exploration of your mind as it is of hers. You might squirm and squeal by the time I've finished with you


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## kmw51561

Please, feel free. I'll brace myself. I'm looking to save my marriage...


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## Jaceace

kmw51561 said:


> First post and I have a doozy:
> 
> I've been married over 20 years. Was with this woman for 5 years before that. 25 years together. In the last three or so years, I've tried to leave twice and was convinced to stay and work it out. I love my wife. I do. We have a home, three kids and a great life. I've been faithful to her our entire marriage. But I am -- and have been for some time -- at the end of my rope.
> 
> The fact is, my wife and I have NEVER been sexually compatible. She knows what she likes and she's not interested in anything else. And what my wife likes is intercourse in the missionary position. I don't begrudge her that, but I'm a very spontaneous guy in the bedroom. Anything and everything should be fair game. But my wife isn't interested in manual sex, oral sex. She won't even dry hump. As far as she's concerned, any and all sexual contact has to lead to intercourse.
> 
> I've long lamented the idea that I've spent the last two decades of my life suppressing my sexual desire. It's the reason I've tried to leave. And it sounds selfish as hell. But the idea I'm going to spend what may be the last 20 years of my life continuing to suppress my desires is starting to drive my crazy. Which has put me on a short fuse with her.
> 
> I've suggested counseling in the past. But my wife is dead set against it. She's one of those people who believes she's always right and that any problem in her life is someone else's fault. i.e., if there's a problem in the bedroom it's me, not her. And there's no way in heck she's going to stand in front of a impartial mediator who may not agree with her. (Whenever our kids agree with me, and not her, she calls them 'rude' and 'ungrateful.' My wife NEEDS to be the one that's right all the time.)
> 
> Now the truth is I'm seriously contemplating divorce. Seriously. And here's why: the other day she asked me to tell her about a sexual fantasy and I did. It was so simple. I'd love to see her perform oral sex on me. She hates doing it, but she agreed to. I spent the entire day in anticipation of it. Then that night, she only agreed to do it if I simulated oral sex on a dildo. I thought that was unfair. I have no desire to pretend to perform oral sex on a penis. She used that as an excuse to not follow through on her promise. It was essentially the last straw. I realized this woman will never make me happy sexually and feels no need to. I can either accept that or do something about it.
> 
> I've spent the last four hours looking for an affordable marriage counselor (I've been out of work over a year and can't really pay for it), but like I said, she wouldn't go with me anyway. But I'm willing to go alone. I've also tried to find some kind of free online counseling but it doesn't seem to exist. I've done some research on how to go about getting a quickie divorce. (Seems pretty simple if both parties are agreeable.)
> 
> Like I said, I've spent 20 years with this very controlling woman (we won't even get into that) who believes all I need in the bedroom is what she wants. I'm sick of it. I can't spend the rest of my life in this situation. Right now I know the day I die, one of the last thoughts to go through my head will be: I should have cheated.


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## Jaceace

Hi,

Gosh do I know how you feel, you are empty, looking and waiting for her to fill that desire, you are itching and waiting for it. But I guess we have the same thing in common. I did go for concealing. They all tell a different story. Some say to eat eat allot off pineapple because it makes your balls smell sweet. Others are full off bull. Jeez the fact you got a dildo in the conversation, means you have done better than me.

So I can’t really offer you anything else except I think you lucky your wife can get off on a dildo. My wife is only 30 and has a zero libido. So good luck


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## kmw51561

dobo said:


> "Even today if I so much as speed up during sex, she stops me and wants to know what I think I'm doing. "
> 
> What does she say exactly? What do you respond?


Well, it's been a while since it's happened because, well, I don't experiment anymore. But the last time she used these exact words: what're you doing?

I don't believe I said anything. Essentially because the reaction didn't surprise me. I just went back to what she expects.


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## ChimeIn

First a few questions...

How old are your kids?

Have you given her any ultimatums?

How did she get you to not leave the three times before?

Here's my honest opinion... I really believe you have to be selfish with your own life. We got ONCE CHANCE in this world. You're right to be worried about spending the next 20 years in a sexually unsatisfying relationship.

But... I believe you forfeit this right when you decide to have kids. Once you've taken on the responsibility of another's person's life, you have to see that through till 18 or 21 years of age. The only reason not to (in my opinion) is when it's making it WORSE rather than better, for the entire family. 

that being said, if your kids are affected by you marriage negatively, you should really consider getting out. If the kids are young, or you're able to maintain a friendly marriage (without the experimenting that you would like) then too bad... this is what you signed up for when you decided to be a husband and a father. (Sorry to be harsh, but kids come first IMHO)

However, if your kids are old enough, you need to ask for a trial separation... maybe six months to a year. You need to make it clear that you will be sexually active during that trial. Maybe she'll learn to appreciate you and want to give you better sex... maybe you'll find other women are not as willing to hop into bed with you. Either way, you'll both know where you stand.

Good Luck.


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## MarkTwain

kmw51561 said:


> Well, it's been a while since it's happened because, well, I don't experiment anymore. But the last time she used these exact words: what're you doing?


I used to get a version of this a few years ago. Now it is my wife that is pushing the boundaries  So I may be able to help. But to get to the good stuff, we may need to deal with the not quite so pleasant stuff...

#1 With women, everything is code for everything else. There are a few amazing exceptions, but generally, women give signs and clues about what they are feeling, they don't usually just come out and say it directly in a language that men can understand.

You have not written much, but what comes over is that she wants to keep the intimacy at arms length. Now I'm not American. I don't use the word intimacy to mean sex! When I use the word intimacy, I mean intimacy in general - that is emotional closeness. 

So to cut a long story short, I am saying that your wife does not want you in her head, or to get into yours for that matter. He doors are closed. Now... you can see why her mouth is closed to your penis!

With women, the sex is the last piece of the jigsaw puzzle. when you get all your ducks in a row, or most of them, the sex just slips into place - as it were.

So by looking at a few things about yourself and your interaction with her, that you thought might have nothing to do with sex, you would be surprised what could be brought about. I know I certainly was.

OK, I will come back to this point later, but I want to move on to #2.

#2. You mentioned that one of her answers, was for you to perform fellatio on a dildo in front of her, before she would do it for you. An d you turned her down. OK, let's look at this. On the surface, it looks like she set you a task you would never perform in order to get you to back down. And you did.

But there is another possibility. Apart from being appalled at the thought of sucking yours, she might have a genuine fantasy about seeing you do something like that. It's just an outside chance of course. Now, whatever you do, don't ask her if the idea of seeing you do it turns her on. She would tell you NO. You have to be much more crafty if you want this to fly 

What you need to do, (and you may as well take your time and do this repeatedly over several weeks) is let the whole thing play on her mind. If there is even the slightest chance that it is one of her fantasies, she will get very very horny. But part of the game has to be that you must pretend to be innocent.

So this is what you do. *Just before you leave for work one morning*, ask her "were you seriously expecting me to suck a dildo"? Act embarrassed and laugh nervously. If she says anything that boils down to a yes, reply with "I don't think I could ever see myself doing that".

Each time, you can make the scenario more and more elaborate: "So you want me to go to a shop, and buy a d-i-l-d-o"?

Then wait and do it again a few days later. Every time you do it vary the language slightly. If you do this, let me know what happens and I will tell you what to do next. Always bring it up when you have to go out shortly, so that she does not have the pressure of having to discuss it with you for very long. A friend taught me this trick. It causes the last sentence you say to keep going around in their heads *in their own internal language*. Read this whole thread: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/8657-cant-figure-her-out.html I go into great detail about how this technique works. Women can use it on men too 

Eventually, you're going to have to suck that dildo - if you can't be intimate with an inanimate object in front of her - how can you expect her to let down her guard and be intimate with you. Intimacy has nothing to do with sex. It is all about letting down walls so that there is either no embarrassment, or the embarrassment is felt but suffered gladly.

I told you you would not like me.


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## swedish

MarkTwain said:


> On the surface, it looks like she set you a task you would never perform in order to get you to back down. And you did.


Since he has alluded to his wife being very controlling in general, I would tend to think this is more likely the case.

As usual, MT you once again give much to think about. I'd venture to guess sexual thoughts and desires my not be in her radar due to upbringing or whatever and in order to keep sex within her control and comfort level she keeps the reigns in tight. I would guess she would be very uncomfortable watching him with a dildo but it wouldn't be out of line because she suggested it. I'm leary whether she would get turned on by it though...but I think she does need to be coerced out of her comfort zone before any progress can be made in the bedroom.

I suppose he could make a game of this...do what she asks but up the ante and tell her this is exactly how I want mine in return....I wonder what her reaction would be?


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## dobo

And he never speaks up.

She asked "What are you doing?" and rather than address it, he said nothing and returned to his rightful place, as though she just swatted him with a rolled up newspaper.

She's controlling because you allow it. You don't step up to the plate. 

While not all women want a more dominant man, a darn large number want a man who will at the very least, be their equal. You're in no danger there.


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## kmw51561

dobo said:


> And he never speaks up.
> 
> She asked "What are you doing?" and rather than address it, he said nothing and returned to his rightful place, as though she just swatted him with a rolled up newspaper.
> 
> She's controlling because you allow it. You don't step up to the plate.
> 
> While not all women want a more dominant man, a darn large number want a man who will at the very least, be their equal. You're in no danger there.


Agreed. But you're forgetting, we've had that scenario waaaay too many times for me to see a fresh outcome.

Just for the record, we've also had a billion conversations when she's complained about me ignoring her and doing what I want anyway (like increasing the pace) as if I don't care what she wants. Yes, there have been plenty of times she's asked what am I doing and I've either said 'what do you think' or just kept going without a word. 

You asked me about the last time she did it, remember?

My wife does not want a dominant man. What I've learned is my wife wants a man who understands she's giving him the authority to be in authority. I fight this tooth and nail, but it's a given. i.e., she's the worst back seat driver you're ever going to meet. (Imagine that!) But she absolutely positively unarguably insist driving irritates her can't I please do it. For her please. Then she spends the entire ride telling me what to do until I blow up at her. I've actually stopped the car on highways and bridges and gotten out. Walked away and forced her to take the wheel. Yet, for all that fighting and resistance, if we get in the car today, she's going to insist I drive at a speed that makes her comfortable, that I get in the lane she wants me to be in. She's going to announce every turn I have to make, etc. And you would swear we were conjoined twins. I turn my head to see what's behind me. She turns her head. I look in the side view, she looks in the side view. I look both ways for a car, she looks both ways. But when I tell her why don't you drive, she doesn't want to. She just wants to give me the wheel while she does the driving. That's the crust of this relationship. She wants the authority to give me authority. And the truth is, the biggest obstacle in our relationship is and always has been my resistance.

A little history: before she met me my wife spent ten years with a submissive man. He accepted her authority. He did everything she ever wanted of him. Including in the bedroom. She tells me all the time, he never told her no. I'm the first man to ever tell her no.

(Ironically, he cheated all the time. I do believe one of the reasons her ideas of sex are so narrow is because while he treated her a certain way in the bedroom he got what he wanted from other women. I mean, the stories I've heard about this guy. Even from her. It's so obvious. But she trusted him completely because, since he did everything she ever asked of him, she can't imagine he'd betray her.)

So just before we started dating, she came out of a decade long relationship where she was the dominant voice. And 25 years later, she still doesn't understand why she can't be.


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## kmw51561

oops. My mistake.

You didn't ask about the last time. I stated I was talking about the last time.

Sorry.


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## kmw51561

swedish said:


> I'd venture to guess sexual thoughts and desires my not be in her radar due to upbringing or whatever and in order to keep sex within her control and comfort level she keeps the reigns in tight. I would guess she would be very uncomfortable watching him with a dildo but it wouldn't be out of line because she suggested it. I'm leary whether she would get turned on by it though...but I think she does need to be coerced out of her comfort zone before any progress can be made in the bedroom.


And you'd be correct on every level. My wife's request had nothing to do with enhancing our sex life. It was about taking control. She was on the verge of doing something I wanted and, to her, she had to get control.

Seeing me do it would not excite her in the least. Trust me. She just wanted to make me do it to reenforce her authority. She wraps it in the mask of play, but that's all it is. Even after I rejected her offer, she could have still fulfilled her promise. Especially after she saw how upset it made me. But she chose not to. For her, this wasn't about enhancing our relationship, it was about getting what she wanted. And if she can't get she wants, I don't get what I want. End of story.



swedish said:


> I suppose he could make a game of this...do what she asks but up the ante and tell her this is exactly how I want mine in return....I wonder what her reaction would be?


Truthfully, she'd go along. But only to confirm I will do what she tells me to. And for the rest of my life, she'd use it as a bargaining chip. Blow job? Well, now you have to do this. Now you have to do that. And lacking anything to do, out comes the dildo...

This is about control. Plain and simple.


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## kmw51561

ChimeIn said:


> First a few questions...
> 
> How old are your kids?


20, 18 and 14.



ChimeIn said:


> Have you given her any ultimatums?


No. That's not my style. Plus I do not want a sexual relationship made up of forced activity. Where's the pleasure in that?



ChimeIn said:


> How did she get you to not leave the three times before?


The first time? We sat down and talked and I realized I loved her and it's not that I don't want to be with her; I just wished things were different. The second time, I was devastated about how my kids looked when they heard the news. (Again, in control mode, my wife told them immediately, even after I said we should wait a day or two. She did this because, unlike the first time, I'd been less resistance about the idea of staying and it angered her.)



ChimeIn said:


> Here's my honest opinion... I really believe you have to be selfish with your own life. We got ONCE CHANCE in this world. You're right to be worried about spending the next 20 years in a sexually unsatisfying relationship.


My thinking as well. And I am selfish. 



ChimeIn said:


> that being said, if your kids are affected by you marriage negatively, you should really consider getting out.


No. My kids are fine. My wife and I probably argue no more than any other couple. The tension is behind closed doors. For instance, it bothers my wife that I don't seem to want to come to bed anymore. Or at least, be in it when she is. But the fact is, I don't have any real desire to lay around with her anymore.



ChimeIn said:


> However, if your kids are old enough, you need to ask for a trial separation...


That's a thought. Thank you.


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## kmw51561

MarkTwain said:


> I told you you would not like me.


You don't scare me, pal! 

Truth is there's a lot here and I can't get to it just yet...


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## MarkTwain

kmw51561 said:


> This is about control. Plain and simple.


This just gets more and more interesting...

After what you said about the back seat driving, the picture is becoming clearer.

You are nearly correct in your assessment. But that's part of the problem, you are clever, and a good match for her. But what you need is the subtlety to see beyond what is happening: the real game. 

As outsiders, we can see other things, other possibilities. But you've got to want it badly or you won't make it. 

I have a friend like your wife. He is a master class in control and manipulation. It's taken me 25 years to get on a level footing with him, and even then he still catches me out from time to time. He is 20 years older than me. When I was 16, I just could not envisage that someone could be so tricky. He was able to run rings round me. Fortunately I grew up. I also had some good teachers later in life.

There is a hidden switch that you could flick, that would turn your marriage into the envy of every one you know. But you have got to want it badly enough to do the work. It won't happen by accident.

I'm not going to write more unless you really want my opinion, becuase I could write for hours about this and I don't want to waste cyber-ink if you don't intend to roll up your sleeves and get busy.


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## dobo

You are *SUCH* a tease!!! Even if he doesn't want it, the rest of us do. And you know it! 

(See? He always leaves us begging for more.)


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## outinthecold

Seems like you're stuck between love and lust.

If she hates to do it, she will never do it.

No amount of counseling will get her to do it.

Your decision is simple, live with what you have.

Others have more, others have less.

Or

Breakup your family, stunt your children, loose your house for something you might get down the road after you cry a river tears for your children, your wife hauls you into court for a while, her family hates you, you only see your children now and then, your family won't understand. Especially when it is public about what it is your divorcing about.

I would think for a very long time about this.

Just like a stone in the pond, the ripple effects of divorce for you are unseen and the resulting consequences could be severe.

All for a sex act.


----------



## swedish

outinthecold said:


> All for a sex act.


I disagree. I don't think it's about a sex act at all. I think it's about feeling your needs and desires are going unheard by the only person that is supposed to fulfill those needs for you. When you feel your needs are not respected within the marriage, it is a very frustrating place to be.

Her ex is a perfect example of how her controlling actions made him feel powerless to change things within the marriage so he took the easy road by getting them met elsewhere. Not what I would recommend but it happens.

I still go back to my original suggestion of taking sex out of the equation and look more at her need for control. Driving for example...I'd probably say 'you drive today' and if she resisted and said she'd rather you drive say 'I really don't mind driving but I get very annoyed when you constantly check the blind spots and tell me which lane to be in, when to turn so you will need to refrain from that if I am driving.' You need to starting shifting the paradigm and start taking what you need. Look at all areas where she wants you to do it but for her to control it and force the issue...if you are doing it she's out of the loop.

She needs to start grasping in her mind that you are fed up with the way things are and she will either start giving up some control because she knows it's at a breaking point and she needs to or you will know that it is what it is. The thing is, don't back down...if you control it, own it and call her out. Once she sees a confident man emerging you can start to take control in the bedroom too...but she needs to begin to learn to let go and trust that you can be in control and the world won't end...once she sees that, taking control in the bedroom will probably be the start of the best sex she's ever had.

Does she orgasm during sex?


----------



## Deejo

swedish said:


> I disagree. I don't think it's about a sex act at all. I think it's about feeling your needs and desires are going unheard by the only person that is supposed to fulfill those needs for you. When you feel your needs are not respected within the marriage, it is a very frustrating place to be.


Bingo.

This isn't even a relationship dynamic that came about over the course of their (assumably) 20+ years together. By kmw's account her MO was the same in a previous relationship.

What seems tragic - as was the same in my case, is that she is ok with her partner's unhappiness. The changes _he_ would like to see, that would reap benefits for their marriage, she wants nothing to do with. Why would anyone want to stick around for that?


----------



## MEM2020

You both said this perfectly. THAT is what this is about. 

And gosh - I wish our hero would step up here so we could learn more of Mark Ts magic - which I truly believe is very potent stuff - stuff I would happily drink. 





Deejo said:


> Bingo.
> 
> This isn't even a relationship dynamic that came about over the course of their (assumably) 20+ years together. By kmw's account her MO was the same in a previous relationship.
> 
> What seems tragic - as was the same in my case, is that she is ok with her partner's unhappiness. The changes _he_ would like to see, that would reap benefits for their marriage, she wants nothing to do with. Why would anyone want to stick around for that?


----------



## dobo

Tease, tease, tease...


----------



## kmw51561

MarkTwain said:


> #1 With women, everything is code for everything else. There are a few amazing exceptions, but generally, women give signs and clues about what they are feeling, they don't usually just come out and say it directly in a language that men can understand.


My wife's code is: if you don't do what I want I'm not doing anything for you.

My wife has a very tit-for-tat approach to life. I mean, literally. If she does you a favor, you owe her a favor. That's the bottom line. Despite what she'll say to the contrary, she does not do anything out the goodness of her heart. She does it so you owe her. And I do not believe a true relationship works that way. You do for each other. But you also respect each other's desires. My wife does not respect my desires because she believes what she wants is far more important. 



MarkTwain said:


> You have not written much, but what comes over is that she wants to keep the intimacy at arms length. Now I'm not American. I don't use the word intimacy to mean sex! When I use the word intimacy, I mean intimacy in general - that is emotional closeness.


Yes. But, despite her limited ideas about sex, my wife can be quite intimate. Now she keeps it at arm's length because she feels I don't earn it. But what she wants is for me to relinquish my free will. She wants to know no matter what she asks of me, I'm going to say _yes_. She wants to know every single time she wants something of me I will comply, whether I choose to or need to or have to. 

Here are some of the things my wife has tried to impress upon me in our relationship:

_I'd find you a lot sexier if you never told me no.

You should never turn me down. I'm your wife.

Why can't you just do what I tell you to do?_

My wife doesn't believe in individuals. We are a couple. And she believes in couples. And couples never leave each other. Ever. And they do everything together. And it drives my wife crazy that I don't feel compelled to spend every single minute of every single day of every single week of every single month of every year in her presence. And it all matters. It's as important for me to go the beauty supply store with her so that she can pick up her hair care products as it is for me to get in the car so she can get some gas as it is for me to drive her to gym and wait in the car while she uses the treadmill. And she doesn't care what I want. She believes if it's what she wants that's all that should matter to me.



MarkTwain said:


> Now... you can see why her mouth is closed to your penis!


Her mouth is closed to my penis because it's the most likely way to penalize (pun!) me for not submitting to her will. I can guarantee you if I did EVERYTHING she asked of me, she'd feel the need to return the favor. Tit-for-tat, remember?



MarkTwain said:


> #2. You mentioned that one of her answers, was for you to perform fellatio on a dildo in front of her, before she would do it for you. An d you turned her down. OK, let's look at this. On the surface, it looks like she set you a task you would never perform in order to get you to back down. And you did.


But as we establish later in the thread, this wasn't about the act of fellatio. It's not about sex. It's about control. It's about taking something I want and using it to prove her authority and power. _You're going to do what I want or suffer the consequences._



MarkTwain said:


> she might have a genuine fantasy about seeing you do something like that.


I doubt it. 

The rest of the post, while informative as hell, doesn't apply, I think. 

This isn't about getting her to blow me. It's about getting her to respect me and my desires. To stop acting like if I don't do EVERYTHING she wants, I can't expect her to do anything I want.



MarkTwain said:


> I told you you would not like me.


Well, I'll admit that flannel shirt you're sporting pisses me off.


----------



## MarkTwain

OK,

Here is my final analysis: Your wife is medium to heavy OCD. I am very mildly OCD myself, so I know a bit about the topic. Let me tell you what OCD actually means in English.

For a long time, OCD was not understood. Recently more research has been done, and some useful information has come out.

People with OCD have low serotonin levels. Serotonin is the neurotransmitter that makes us feel relaxed, content and generally OK. When serotonin is present in the right amounts, if a thought that is slightly discomforting enters our heads, we are more than likely to quickly brush it aside after a few moments.

However, for people with low serotonin, there simply isn't the cushion of "OKness" for things to take this route. What happens is that they have a background of general anxiety, due to the lack of serotonin. So when a troubling thought comes along, they instantly amplify and worry about it. Next thing they know, the world will end if they don't tell you exactly how to drive your car etc. She probably hates driving becuase she is minutely aware of just how much responsibility a driver has, and as much as she hates your driving, she would rather you took the rap for running someone over than her. She also thinks that if you drive while she directs, her additional help will be useful.

But it's not your diving that's the problem. The OCD person feels uncomfortable, and assumes that it must be whatever is happening in their environment that is causing the discomfort. The real cause is chemical. BUT, the OCD person always has a point. Driving *is* dangerous. They just lack the laid-backness to relax about it. 

Now, what seems to happen to OCD people is that they tend to divide into groups who feel threatened by certain things. #1 has got to be cleanliness issues. We all know people who wash their hands way more than is necessary. With me it's paperwork!

OCD people will always avoid certain things that they know are a major challenge for them. So in my case, I always avoid doing anything that will create extra paperwork!

So... with all this in mind does this make any sense of her actions?


----------



## swedish

swedish said:


> Once she sees a confident man emerging you can start to take control in the bedroom too...but she needs to begin to learn to let go and trust that you can be in control and *the world won't end*...once she sees that, taking control in the bedroom will probably be the start of the best sex she's ever had.





MarkTwain said:


> Next thing they know, the world will end if they don't tell you exactly how to drive your car etc.


I guess us mild-OCDers think alike


----------



## MarkTwain

swedish said:


> I guess us mild-OCDers think alike


Get your own quirks! I had OCD first! No fair


----------



## MEM2020

What is it YOU plan to change to alter the broken pattern of interaction established over 25 years?

What would she do if you suddenly stopped going anywhere with her, doing anything with her? What if you simply told her that she will become a priority to you after she demonstrates for quite some time that you are her highest priority?

Not kidding. I had to do something like this - not over bjs luckily but over some basic respect - about 5 years ago. 

I literally said these exact words to my wife in response to a specific and high priority request she made of me. 

"I understand that is very important to you. I no longer care what you think. Not at all. I am not a priority to you, my needs are ignored, I am ignored. Until that changes, nothing you ask/want/need is going to get done. Do you understand me?"

Amazingly - that single act - with follow through for 6 months, changed something that 5 years of screaming could not. I actually did become the number 1 priority right after the kids - which truly truly was fine with me. And I didn't have to get angry or scream anymore. I just totally stopped cooperating. Boy did that make a difference. 

You might try it.














kmw51561 said:


> My wife's code is: if you don't do what I want I'm not doing anything for you.
> 
> My wife has a very tit-for-tat approach to life. I mean, literally. If she does you a favor, you owe her a favor. That's the bottom line. Despite what she'll say to the contrary, she does not do anything out the goodness of her heart. She does it so you owe her. And I do not believe a true relationship works that way. You do for each other. But you also respect each other's desires. My wife does not respect my desires because she believes what she wants is far more important.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. But, despite her limited ideas about sex, my wife can be quite intimate. Now she keeps it at arm's length because she feels I don't earn it. But what she wants is for me to relinquish my free will. She wants to know no matter what she asks of me, I'm going to say _yes_. She wants to know every single time she wants something of me I will comply, whether I choose to or need to or have to.
> 
> Here are some of the things my wife has tried to impress upon me in our relationship:
> 
> _I'd find you a lot sexier if you never told me no.
> 
> You should never turn me down. I'm your wife.
> 
> Why can't you just do what I tell you to do?_
> 
> My wife doesn't believe in individuals. We are a couple. And she believes in couples. And couples never leave each other. Ever. And they do everything together. And it drives my wife crazy that I don't feel compelled to spend every single minute of every single day of every single week of every single month of every year in her presence. And it all matters. It's as important for me to go the beauty supply store with her so that she can pick up her hair care products as it is for me to get in the car so she can get some gas as it is for me to drive her to gym and wait in the car while she uses the treadmill. And she doesn't care what I want. She believes if it's what she wants that's all that should matter to me.
> 
> 
> 
> Her mouth is closed to my penis because it's the most likely way to penalize (pun!) me for not submitting to her will. I can guarantee you if I did EVERYTHING she asked of me, she'd feel the need to return the favor. Tit-for-tat, remember?
> 
> 
> 
> But as we establish later in the thread, this wasn't about the act of fellatio. It's not about sex. It's about control. It's about taking something I want and using it to prove her authority and power. _You're going to do what I want or suffer the consequences._
> 
> 
> 
> I doubt it.
> 
> The rest of the post, while informative as hell, doesn't apply, I think.
> 
> This isn't about getting her to blow me. It's about getting her to respect me and my desires. To stop acting like if I don't do EVERYTHING she wants, I can't expect her to do anything I want.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I'll admit that flannel shirt you're sporting pisses me off.


----------



## MarkTwain

MEM11363 said:


> Amazingly - that single act - with follow through for 6 months, changed something that 5 years of screaming could not.


Yes, women have an amazing ability to cut through all the BS and only hear what you actually mean. You meant it, she heard it. All the 5 years of jumping up and down before that was just seen as the tantrums of a child.


----------



## kmw51561

Well, the wife and I had a pretty intense fight yesterday. About respect and intimacy and being more conscious of the other's feelings.

It's not easy talking to my wife. I mentioned how I'd gone outside the marriage to discuss these things. She went into a rage. (I believe I say earlier in this thread my wife does not like people talking about her. She especially resents people who openly admit to not agreeing with her argument. [This is why she'll never go into counseling. She can't afford to confront neutral 3rd parties that might actually challenge her ideals. She needs them to be accepted blindly.])

As I was saying, talking to her is not easy.

My wife can trace almost every single negative aspect of our relationship to something I did. Every argument to something I said. I can quote verbatim something she said that irritated me and she'll simply say she never said that. Hell, I told her about something she said just this week that bothered me and she swore it never happened.

She thinks I'm blowing the dildo incident out of proportion. Par for the course. Nothing she'd do can be considered 'bad'.

My wife can never see what I'm feeling if it conflicts with what she wants. We even started fighting over a fight we had ten years ago, because once again, she refused to confront what I was feeling -- instead dealing with what she thought I was doing.

Here's the story: like I said, my wife believes I should do as I'm told. One morning our son had a dental appointment. She was supposed to take him because I had to work. (Note: my wife refuses to do anything with the kids if I'm available. She was only going because I had to work.) But the night before the client called and said they didn't need me after all. I told my wife and was surprised she didn't tell me then she wanted me to take the kid. I mean, I was really surprised.

The next morning, we wake up. She sits up, saying 'Gotta take him to the dentist.' I'm looking at her. Literally thinking is she really going to take him while I stay home? Then out of the blue, she says, 'You know what? **** this ****. I'm not taking him. You are.'

Then she laid down and went back to sleep.

I got mad.

Surprised?

But to this day, my wife insists the argument wasn't that I was insulted, disrespected and emasculated. I was just being lazy. Why couldn't I take him?

Even now she can't see how I feel, instead dealing with what she wanted.

(By the way, I refused to take him so she ended up taking him anyway.)

And no matter how many times I told her how I felt, all that mattered to her was she "asked" me to take him and I wouldn't. For her, that was the issue. That's always the issue. What I should have done.

I could honestly say that was the day everything changed. That was the day I realized if I didn't stand up for myself this woman was going to walk over me the rest of my life. (My family had always said she bullied me and I didn't pay it much mind.) Since then we've been in this little tug of war where she tries to rule and I don't submit. Tension ensues.

It makes it very difficult to deal with her. Which is why most times I just put my foot down and refuse to even discuss it. Because to my mind, she doesn't care what I think or feel. Just do what she says. So I make it quite clear that I'm not doing it so leave me alone. Which of course enrages her...

I let her read some of the material here. She thinks you're all *******s. 

Anyway, well into the morning hours, we fell asleep holding hands. Smiling at each other.

But she woke up quite angry. Wouldn't talk to me. Told me she was going out and left.

So it begins...


----------



## MEM2020

FYI:
I did not want a D, we did not get a D. We are very happily married right now - and have been for many years, in fact most of our 20 together have been good. BUT I have no idea why she was not making me a priority, I was the SOLE breadwinner and I was in the middle of a run of very good luck so money was very free. And it was always OUR money, we both looked at it that way. So I could not understand why she did not grasp the basic facts:
- I was working really, really hard, way harder then I wanted
- We were saving more then half my after tax income, which since we are both savers made us quite happy, but we were doing that while living nicer then we used to
- I really wasn't asking her for that much, really - like maybe 2-4 hours a week more help on average. And ALL the kids were now in school so her workload had dropped a lot. 

And yet until I did what I did, nothing worked, nothing I said changed anything. I got nothing but lip service. Very exhausting. And everything else was good - she is fun to be with, really fun in bed - just could not be bothered to be helpful to me. 




MarkTwain said:


> Yes, women have an amazing ability to cut through all the BS and only hear what you actually mean. You meant it, she heard it. All the 5 years of jumping up and down before that was just seen as the tantrums of a child.


----------



## EternalBacheor

" I've done some research on how to go about getting a quickie divorce. (Seems pretty simple if both parties are agreeable.)"

A Reality Check for You from the Eternal Bachelor:
You are going to get financially wiped out in divorce court. Be prepared to lose your home, your savings, and be forced to pay child support and alimony that will consume a significant portion of your take-home pay. There is no such a thing as a "quickie divorce" when there are three dependent children involved and a wife who is going to be extremely angry.

Not getting blow jobs is not grounds for a divorce; not getting any sex at all is not grounds for a divorce - the court will show you no pity.

Broke and divorced men are not "attractive" to women; so you will not be getting the blow jobs you seek anyway if you pursue a divorce.

Your situation is one of the many reasons why no male should ever sign a marriage contract - ever. Once you do your life as a free man is over.

You voluntarily signed a contract that made you a slave so as a slave you must now live.


----------



## MEM2020

EB,
You know absolutely zero about this guys financial situation. Zero. So why are you so sure that a divide/2 is a train wreck for him? Plus you have no idea how much she currently spends. 

Sometimes you are a negative unhelpful person. 





EternalBacheor said:


> " I've done some research on how to go about getting a quickie divorce. (Seems pretty simple if both parties are agreeable.)"
> 
> A Reality Check for You from the Eternal Bachelor:
> You are going to get financially wiped out in divorce court. Be prepared to lose your home, your savings, and be forced to pay child support and alimony that will consume a significant portion of your take-home pay. There is no such a thing as a "quickie divorce" when there are three dependent children involved and a wife who is going to be extremely angry.
> 
> Not getting blow jobs is not grounds for a divorce; not getting any sex at all is not grounds for a divorce - the court will show you no pity.
> 
> Broke and divorced men are not "attractive" to women; so you will not be getting the blow jobs you seek anyway if you pursue a divorce.
> 
> Your situation is one of the many reasons why no male should ever sign a marriage contract - ever. Once you do your life as a free man is over.
> 
> You voluntarily signed a contract that made you a slave so as a slave you must now live.


----------



## kmw51561

MEM11363 said:


> EB,
> You know absolutely zero about this guys financial situation. Zero. So why are you so sure that a divide/2 is a train wreck for him? Plus you have no idea how much she currently spends.
> 
> Sometimes you are a negative unhelpful person.


Agreed.

(1) If you read more of the thread, you'd see this isn't about a 'blow job'.

(2) This isn't about me getting blow jobs elsewhere, it's about staying where I'm potentially unhappy.

(3) Two of my kids are over 18. No child support there.

(4) My wife and I have always agreed: if we ever broke up, I'd get the kids. And that hasn't changed. She'd leave, taking the car and a few personal effects and I'd stay. We even reiterated that point last night. Ergo, any child support would be coming to me, not her.

An 'eternal bachelor'? How could you know anything about marriage or divorce, let alone daringly give advice? 

But thanks for the view point anyways.


----------



## MarkTwain

kmw51561-

It's a pity you jumped in and showed your wife this thread.


----------



## kmw51561

MarkTwain said:


> kmw51561-
> 
> It's a pity you jumped in and showed your wife this thread.


I did not.

She wanted to and I did not reply. And I came here and reported this.

But she went on my laptop and found it. Unfortunately you don't need to log in to read the forums here...

kmw


----------



## MarkTwain

UhOh...

Well that's just about blown it then.


----------



## MarkTwain

Well I wrote an article a while back that you might like to read, let me know and I will PM you the url, as you don't want your wife reading THIS!


----------



## kmw51561

MarkTwain said:


> kmw51561-
> 
> It's a pity you jumped in and showed your wife this thread.


Was going thru this and saw how you derived this. I wrote:

_I let her read some of the material here. She thinks you're all *******s._

I'd actually compiled some notes I'd made, including tidbits I'd pulled from here, numerous articles, my thoughts and things a couple of friends told me.

I let her read those.

She did want to read this thread but I wasn't sure I wanted her to so I never answered. I found out the following night she'd found the thread on her own (never occurred to me to remove it from my history).

Fact is, she'd decided you were all *******s before reading a single word.


----------



## MEM2020

KM,

What is the most effective behavior modification technique you have ever used with your wife? What did you do, and how effective was it?







kmw51561 said:


> Was going thru this and saw how you derived this. I wrote:
> 
> _I let her read some of the material here. She thinks you're all *******s._
> 
> I'd actually compiled some notes I'd made, including tidbits I'd pulled from here, numerous articles, my thoughts and things a couple of friends told me.
> 
> I let her read those.
> 
> She did want to read this thread but I wasn't sure I wanted her to so I never answered. I found out the following night she'd found the thread on her own (never occurred to me to remove it from my history).
> 
> Fact is, she'd decided you were all *******s before reading a single word.


----------



## MarkTwain

kmw51561 said:


> Fact is, she'd decided you were all *******s before reading a single word.


I love a challenge


----------



## kmw51561

MEM11363 said:


> What is the most effective behavior modification technique you have ever used with your wife? What did you do, and how effective was it?


That's a difficult question to answer. I'd be remiss to say I've EVER used a 'technique' to modify my wife's behavior. I'm not a conformist and one of my life rule's is to not change people. Now I've changed the way I deal with her, but I can't say I've ever done anything to change the way she deals with me.

kmw


----------



## MEM2020

If you are not willing to attempt to change the way she interacts with you, then you have 2 choices - accept her as she is or leave. 

As for your conformist comments - I am not a conformist either. Still - there have been marital behaviors that I found unacceptable and I tried a lot of different things to try to find out how to get my wife to interact with me differently. I am not ashamed of trying to change her behavior - and she has successfully changed mine in some ways all for the better. This is not about conforming. 



kmw51561 said:


> That's a difficult question to answer. I'd be remiss to say I've EVER used a 'technique' to modify my wife's behavior. I'm not a conformist and one of my life rule's is to not change people. Now I've changed the way I deal with her, but I can't say I've ever done anything to change the way she deals with me.
> 
> kmw


----------



## kmw51561

MEM11363 said:


> If you are not willing to attempt to change the way she interacts with you, then you have 2 choices - accept her as she is or leave.
> 
> As for your conformist comments - I am not a conformist either. Still - there have been marital behaviors that I found unacceptable and I tried a lot of different things to try to find out how to get my wife to interact with me differently. I am not ashamed of trying to change her behavior - and she has successfully changed mine in some ways all for the better. This is not about conforming.


Of course. My apologies if I offended you. What I meant was I don't let people change me and I return the favor. This is why I have never -- knowingly -- attempted to alter my wife's behavior. Your term 'modification technique' implied a specific plan of some sort and I've never used such a thing with my wife. Or anyone else for that matter. If I didn't like something she did or does, I told her so. We fought or we didn't, but I told her. But I never, per say, tried to modify a behavior through a series of steps, i.e., how can I get my wife to blow me every night. I've modified my behavior. i.e., I'm not going to let my wife force me to do that anymore. As opposed to figuring out a way to stop her from asking me in the first place. Does that make sense?

And again, my apologies. You're right. This isn't about being a conformist. Tho my other half thinks that's my problem, which is probably why it came out in the first place.


----------



## MEM2020

No offence taken. I definitely think you are the good guy in this. As for you wanting your wife to make the effort to please you - I do not think you are being shallow. I think you want your wife to make the effort to make you feel loved. 

I will say that I think your mindset is healthy in that you deal with individual situations directly. 

I admit that in the past there have been a couple times my intent absolutely was to modify my wifes behavior towards me. There were a couple times I felt sufficiently ill treated to simply ask her a question - Do you think I will tolerate that behavior when the kids are grown?

And it was a sincere question. I really wanted her to think about that because the answer was I would not. And in both cases we ended up having a very good discussion and our marriage improved through both of us making more of an effort going forward. And I wasn't trying to control her - at least I don't think so. I was trying to get her to recognize how much it hurt me when she did certain things. Net result she made more effort not to do them. I don't think that makes me a bad guy. 




kmw51561 said:


> Of course. My apologies if I offended you. What I meant was I don't let people change me and I return the favor. This is why I have never -- knowingly -- attempted to alter my wife's behavior. Your term 'modification technique' implied a specific plan of some sort and I've never used such a thing with my wife. Or anyone else for that matter. If I didn't like something she did or does, I told her so. We fought or we didn't, but I told her. But I never, per say, tried to modify a behavior through a series of steps, i.e., how can I get my wife to blow me every night. I've modified my behavior. i.e., I'm not going to let my wife force me to do that anymore. As opposed to figuring out a way to stop her from asking me in the first place. Does that make sense?
> 
> And again, my apologies. You're right. This isn't about being a conformist. Tho my other half thinks that's my problem, which is probably why it came out in the first place.


----------



## mermaid1

As a married woman myself, I think that kmw should be very careful and wary of some of the 2 cents worth of advice being provided, particularly the advice from the last post who states that kmw should go out and commit adultery, the grass will be greener on the other side. It sounds to me like the guy has little to no respect for women, and much less for the institution of marriage. He probably goes with prostitutes and ****s. I also think that before kmw throw away his marriage, he needs to be very sure that he is doing all that he can to make a happy marriage. He should encourage his spouse to accompany him to the marriage counseling.


----------



## kmw51561

Thank you, mermaid1.

Trust me, I am leaning more towards advice that offers help in saving my marriage. I've been married over two decades and haven't cheated. And I don't want to now.


----------



## MarkTwain

mermaid1 said:


> It sounds to me like the guy has little to no respect for women, and much less for the institution of marriage. He probably goes with prostitutes and ****s.


For a 1st post, I think you're coming on a bit strong!


----------



## mermaid1

Yes, you may be right, but I feel that one must be careful when telling someone "to just leave, and/or commit adultry because he knows that the grass is greener on the other side". The person giving this kind of advice may not have enough information about the marital relationship since he is hearing only one side. I'd like to hear the other spouse's perspective before telling kmw to get out now. Things aren't always as they sound.


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## nikon

kmw51561, despite being a woman I totally understand that what is happening in the bedroom is unacceptable to you - and by what you've told us it seems like your wife is very controlling and wants it her way in all things. I kind of recognise this pattern. Ok, so the problem here is not whether or not she loves you - but whether or not she is able to play a "submissive" role in bed. Obviously a BJ is a very submissive position and makes lots of women feel very cheap, humiliated and uncomfortable. The other thing is (and i think that's what she was trying to tell you with the "dildo") is that she probably doesn't find a penis that exciting and attractive to put in her mouth (and she is not the only woman with this problem!). Lots and lots of women have this same problem - women are simply not as "aroused" when seeing a genitalia then men are when they see a naked woman. Our brains work differently. Some women love the submissive position in the bedroom but others resent it. Or simply visually hate the penis... Some women, her included (probably) need to feel in control at all times - and in a "respectable" position... even in bed. Another thing - some women can't even stand the thought of tasting semen, so there might be lots of reasons why she hates giving a BJ - The penis appearance, the smell or taste of it, the semen (in this case make it only as foreplay), the submissive position...etc... I personally think she won't budge (based on her reactions by reading/ignoring good ideas at this forum)... I think sex isn't the only thing that bothers you in this relationship... it's her constant superior position, she is the dominating person in your marriage and sets all the rules... I don't know what to suggest, exactly... But I hope this helps a bit in explaining her dislike with BJs.


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## D8zed

mermaid1 said:


> Yes, you may be right, but I feel that one must be careful when telling someone "to just leave, and/or commit adultry because he knows that the grass is greener on the other side". The person giving this kind of advice may not have enough information about the marital relationship since he is hearing only one side. I'd like to hear the other spouse's perspective before telling kmw to get out now. Things aren't always as they sound.


How is this different from someone who says "you should stay in the relationship"? What if he was being abused and you advised him to stay and work on it? Just like you said - you may not have enough information to give that advice. 

Therefore, if neither side has enough information to give advice, what would this forum become? Basically a forum full of questions with no answers or advice.

Every poster must take in all the feedback and advice and make their own decision.


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## MarkTwain

mermaid1 said:


> Things aren't always as they sound.


True!


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## themrs

If I'm reading the OP correctly, it's not actually about the fact that she won't go down on you. It's more to do with the fact that she doesn't want to please you. Is that correct? I mean, you say you have no desire to simulate oral sex on a fake penis, but obviously she feels the same way about actually doing it on a real one. 

So oral sex turns her off. Not everyone is going to enjoy doing certain sexual acts that other people want. That's life. But if you feel that your wife simply has no interest in pleasing you sexually, that is a big problem. Even if she doesn't like oral sex, she should be able to make a compromise somewhere. I mean, why ask you what your fantasy is if she doesn't plan on at least trying to fulfill it? That's selfish and hurtful. 

I think you should talk to her not about this particular instance, but the general feeling that you have that your needs do not matter to her.


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## mermaid1

Listen D8zed and confused, you just don't get it. I did not say fullofanger should not express his/her point of view, as a matter of fact I think that this forum is great. What I am saying is that fullofanger should not rush to advise kmw to run out and commit adultry while he is still married. Extramarital affairs don't help situations, they only aid in making the individual more confused and messy as to resolving problems in the marriage. If I come across too strong as pointed out to me by Mark Twain, as I am in agreement with, fullofanger struck a nerve in me when he advised kmw to cheat, some friend he/she would make to a married couple. Fullofanger and you don't know how kmw and his wife are in private. Kmw did not tell us at what point his wife became controlling and whether she was this way before the marriage. I wonder if she is controlling in all aspects of their life and if the missionary position is the only sexual position that they practice. I am suspicious if kmw is teling everything. Kmw if you read this, can you tell us more about your wife? Is it true that your wife limits you to the missionary position, do you have any input in the house, does she pay any bills, and what about the rearing of the children, do you have any say? Last, were there any events that triggered your wife's controlling behavior. I ask these questions because you are still there, why?


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## MarkTwain

mermaid1 said:


> I am suspicious if kmw is teling everything. Kmw if you read this, can you tell us more about your wife? Is it true that your wife limits you to the missionary position, do you have any input in the house, does she pay any bills, and what about the rearing of the children, do you have any say? Last, were there any events that triggered your wife's controlling behavior. I ask these questions because you are still there, why?


All good questions from our watery friend  Are you listening Kmw?


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## Deejo

> Kmw did not tell us at what point his wife became controlling and whether she was this way before the marriage. I wonder if she is controlling in all aspects of their life and if the missionary position is the only sexual position that they practice. I am suspicious if kmw is teling everything. Kmw if you read this, can you tell us more about your wife?


Actually, he did address this. The answer was 'yes', she has always been this way - he knew it going in. She behaved the same way with a previous partner. One of the reasons she was initially attracted to him was, by kmw's account, that he was the only man that often told her 'no' and didn't acquiesce to her every demand.

Let's face it, a universal scenario that a woman virtually always has control over, healthy or otherwise, is sex.

And for good or ill, sex is the canary in the coal mine for building a pyramid of issues and resentment that ultimately lead to - being at the end of your rope for tolerance.


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## mermaid1

I think kmw is looking for supporters who will side with him against his wife. 

Maybe the love between kmw and his wife has diminished, he has less tolerance for her, and all they have between them are the kids and the bills. 

It sounds like there are times when kmw gets the nerve repeatly tell his wife that he wants to leave the marriage because she is selfish, controlling, and a sexually limited shrew. And then he stays anyway. 

I wonder if kmw is unhappy also for other reasons that he is not talking about. He mentioned a few things, for example, he stated that he's been unemployed over a year, he can't feel great about that. Another thing, he said that his family told him that his wife bullies him, maybe that embarassed him. 

Kmw could be experiencing mid life crisis. 

Lastly, I wonder if there is someone waiting in the wings, someone who is giving him bjs and showing him tenderness. 
Unfortunately, now that kmw thinks that his wife maybe looking at this site he may hesitate to answer these questions so we may never know the truth.


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## MarkTwain

mermaid1-

I'm surprised no-one has bitten at my OCD idea. Did you see this post: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/99638-post38.html


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## MEM2020

It is not true women always have control over sex. This is what is true:
- The person who loves LESS has more control over the relationship 
- The person with the lower sex drive OFTEN has more control over sex then the person with the higher drive

If you are with someone who is sexually adventurous AND they are really into you. Then you routinely get asked questions like: What can I do to make this even better for you? 

There is a threat just started by a woman whose spouse is drenching her in love - and she is totally turned off by it and by him. She is on track to divorce him because he is emotionally crowding her. 

I have found the single most amazing aphrodisiac is to be a great partner - fun, kind, supportive, funny - and just stay one half step emotionally further back then your partner wants. This is not easy - if you can do it - and I have sort of stumbled into this - they are constantly chasing you a little bit. Very very nice feeling. And part of the chase for a woman is to use physical affection/sex to bond you to her. 






Deejo said:


> Actually, he did address this. The answer was 'yes', she has always been this way - he knew it going in. She behaved the same way with a previous partner. One of the reasons she was initially attracted to him was, by kmw's account, that he was the only man that often told her 'no' and didn't acquiesce to her every demand.
> 
> Let's face it, a universal scenario that a woman virtually always has control over, healthy or otherwise, is sex.
> 
> And for good or ill, sex is the canary in the coal mine for building a pyramid of issues and resentment that ultimately lead to - being at the end of your rope for tolerance.


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## outinthecold

Dear MEM11363

Does not seem like a whole lot of honesty in your statement.

Playing games with a life partner

Playing games with feelings

It may be true everything you say, but your truth sucks


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## Deejo

Mem, I don't disagree with your premise. But it isn't hard and fast. Quite frankly I believe that every relationship is a 'game' to some extent. But, it should never boil down to a winner and a loser.

My claim about women having control over sex is one of those black-hole statements. Different people will infer different things. I recognize that there are relationships where the roles are reversed.

Bottom line, if there are intimacy issues, and only one party wants to address them - it's a problem.


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## MEM2020

OIC,

Not attempting to inflame anyone. I do pay attention to how much emotional space is between me and my wife. If you read the book "Mating in captivity" the author explains this way better then I can. 

I love my wife MORE. She is the - outside the bedroom - more alpha then I am. Don't get me wrong - she is not biatchy - and I am far from passive but for the most part we do things her way and I am fine with that. 

As for emotional space I simple mean:
- When she tells me she plans to do something with a friend our one of our children I 100 percent say that is great have fun.
- When she is out doing something I never ever call and ask when she is going to be home - and if she planned to be out 2 hours - and is out 6 she gets the same happy response when she returns

There is a thread posted now by someone who claims to have no freakin clue. Her man is doing the opposite of what I do. She is super conflicted because she believes she should love that treatment and him, but in truth loathes being crowded and is thinking of leaving him. She lost her sexual desire for him months ago. 

I never ever do things that hurt my wife's self esteem or make her think I am indifferent to her. If asked she would tell you I am in love with her, and that sometimes when expressing love in a long term marriage, less really is more. 




outinthecold said:


> Dear MEM11363
> 
> Does not seem like a whole lot of honesty in your statement.
> 
> Playing games with a life partner
> 
> Playing games with feelings
> 
> It may be true everything you say, but your truth sucks


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## mermaid1

Marktwain
I can agree about "a little OCD". Then again everyone is more or less OCD about something.

MEM11363
I liked what you said, that women don't always have control over the sexual relationships. Your insight shows that you have given much thought to the subject and, your explanation of your own relationships shows that you love your wife despite that she appears to be more alpha outside of the bedroom. I would like to hear from the other spouse because there can be many factors that the husband may be insensitive to that can cause the wife to have a low sex drive which in turn affects how often sex is desired. Factors can include health problems, prescription medications, the aging process, these issues and/or others can affect sexual desire. Although a few the members on this web site want to pass judgement after hearing from one partner, I hope to hear more before telling a stranger to leave his wife and children for more sex.


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## MarkTwain

mermaid1 said:


> Although a few the members on this web site want to pass judgement after hearing from one partner, I hope to hear more before telling a stranger to leave his wife and children for more sex.


Bang on the money!

I always try to imagine the other spouses version, whenever a thread is started. On this particular thread it's very hard to do, but there must be a story in there somewhere, and I do have a very active imagination. I also feel the woman's sexuality is deeper than the husband realises... he just lacks the sensitivity to unlock it. However, I have every faith in him that the penny will drop.


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