# I have a new GF – my XW



## zillard

I started posting on TAM in late 2012 after DDay. 

First I posted in GTDS, What to do with I don't know

Then in LAD, From A to Z

Long story short(ish), I discovered my spouse was in an EA with a coworker. I suspected that it had advanced to a PA. I tried to work things out. She wanted separation but would not hold herself accountable and refused to work on the M, so I filed for D. 

She was in such a state of self pity/hatred, coupled with PTSD, that she convinced herself our daughter was better off with me (6 nights w/Dad, 1 night w/Mom). 

During the D waiting period she moved out and we did joint therapy for the purpose of improving co-parenting. Two different therapists helped us a lot, noticed we cared deeply for each other still, and attempted to get us to a place where R was possible. 

X was still deeply in the fog. After D was final I waited a few months and then moved away with my young daughter and began rebuilding my life. I moved to my hometown, where X vowed she would never live. My life has improved, as has my daughter's, being so close to a large family. 

I dated an old friend steadily and things were going great, until they got too serious for her. 

Near the end of that relationship I saw a change in X during our co-parenting interactions. She began apologizing. She began admitting her mistakes. I was reaching a place where I was beginning to forgive. We began being more friendly with each other, and it was nice. It remained on that level for months. 

And then out of the blue I received "that" letter. A heartfelt apology, admission, and expression of love with no blame and no requests. It immediately rang true. It seemed she had finally put her pride on a shelf and was seeing things, and herself, as they really are. And she was accepting it.

For the scheduled summer kid exchange, I took D8 to her (to fulfill my responsibility of % of travel). What I planned to be a simple drop off before heading off on my own vacation, turned into a week and a half. 

X and I dated. We talked ALOT. While out the first night she broke down crying, apologizing, promising... in public. Not insignificant for such a prideful woman. 

While I was there her grandmother had a massive heart attack in front of us which threw a wrench into many plans. I was able to observe her in an extremely stressful situation, and I saw obvious improvements. 

She REALLY wants to come home, wherever home is and whatever it looks like. She wants to go to MC and return to IC and is very adamant about it. Shared passwords, etc are no longer an issue for her. 

I've now been back home for weeks and our talks and courting continue. She has secured a job in my location and is getting things ready. 

My new GF will be moving into my house in two weeks. 

*climbing into the front seat of the rollercoaster* Let the fun begin.


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## PBear

Just curious... But is there a reason why she can't move to your area and NOT move in with you? Date like a normal couple for 6 months?

I wish you well. And all I can say is remember to hold on to your NUTS. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## manticore

I remember you first thread, but I didn't follow the second one, what I remember clearly is that no way in hell her claiming of expending alone the night with the cooworker and nothing happened was possible, even if hse never accepted the truth.

did she finally came clean aboout the affair? if not, you are just rugsweeping.

I like to believe that people can change, but my experiences in life have show me that more often than not they dissapoint you again.


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## Jellybeans

Some couples do get back together.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## zillard

PBear said:


> Just curious... But is there a reason why she can't move to your area and NOT move in with you? Date like a normal couple for 6 months?
> 
> I wish you well. And all I can say is remember to hold on to your NUTS.
> 
> C


Ultimately, no. Immediately logistics and economics. Doing so could easily push back her move into next year. 

I think that if I required it, she would do it. 

I believe that she truly wants this and is ready to do what it takes. It may be more prudent/cautious to do it that way, but I feel we're both on the same page.

I'm ready to give it a go, knowing that it won't be easy and that there are no guarantees. 

It's scary with the potential to end in disaster. But it feels right and I'm ok with it. I can handle it if it does.


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## zillard

manticore said:


> I remember you first thread, but I didn't follow the second one, what I remember clearly is that no way in hell her claiming of expending alone the night with the cooworker and nothing happened was possible, even if hse never accepted the truth.
> 
> did she finally came clean aboout the affair? if not, you are just rugsweeping.
> 
> I like to believe that people can change, but my experiences in life have show me that more often than not they dissapoint you again.


She's told me her story. More details than before. More information about her mindset, need for attention/validation, emotional connection, fooling around a bit and sleeping in bed with him, cuddling. 

Is that the full story? I'll never know. 
Is it possible that it isn't? Yes.
Is it possible that it is? Yes.

Here is the kicker. The extent of what happened does not matter to me. If she boned him 50 times or continued to participate in an emotional affair with no sex, it is still 100% completely unacceptable, dishonest, selfish, hurtful betrayal. 

I did the digging and investigating that I needed in order to divorce with a clear conscience. I've done the listening and observing to evaluate her motives and sincerity in order to attempt R.


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## PBear

Just as an FYI... I'm more concerned about your child than I am for either of you two. No offense intended. But if things don't work out again and she's living there, it's just going to be ugly. Well, uglier than if she lived in town but somewhere else. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## zillard

PBear said:


> Just as an FYI... I'm more concerned about your child than I am for either of you two. No offense intended. But if things don't work out again and she's living there, it's just going to be ugly. Well, uglier than if she lived in town but somewhere else.
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Valid concern and appreciated. One that I've thought hard about myself. I'm not offended. 

Failure is always a possibility and fallout from it would be very real. No matter how this is approached, if it fails D8 will be hurt. 

I believe she can heal, even excel, with my support and IC. I've seen it already. 

The risk is large, the potential payoff larger (especially for D8).


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## PBear

Sometimes life isn't ideal, so you make do with what you have. I agree that if she's changed and you can make it work, it would be best for everyone. Good luck!

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## zillard

Thanks, I appreciate that as well as your questions and concerns. I'm not just here for support, but feedback as well. 

Before I moved away I was hoping for R. I gave up on that and accepted things as finished for good. Her letter was a huge surprise to me. As is the difference I see in her.


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## zillard

For those who have reconciled after a long separation or divorce, what did you find beneficial and what would you have done differently?


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## bandit.45

Live together but don't ever get re-married. That should be her ultimate consequence: she never gets to call herself your wife again.


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## ThreeStrikes

Slightly off-topic:

Do you think that your ongoing feelings for your ex put the kibosh on any realistic chance with a relationship with another woman, such as T?

Do you think T sensed your feelings for ex, and that's why she started to withdraw?

In my world, they would've call it "Still hung up on your ex".

Just wondering.


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## ThreeStrikes

bandit.45 said:


> Live together but don't ever get re-married. That should be her ultimate consequence: she never gets to call herself your wife again.


Pre-NUP!


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## Pamvhv

Congrats, mate! I hope it goes swimmingly for you two.


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## zillard

ThreeStrikes said:


> Slightly off-topic:
> 
> Do you think that your ongoing feelings for your ex put the kibosh on any realistic chance with a relationship with another woman, such as T?
> 
> Do you think T sensed your feelings for ex, and that's why she started to withdraw?
> 
> In my world, they would've call it "Still hung up on your ex".
> 
> Just wondering.


Fair question. 

I can only assume why T started to withdraw. In the end there may have been some of that thrown in with whatever else she was thinking, but it started at a time when I wasn't even considering X. 

Contact and interaction with X was strictly D8 related until after I dumped T the first time. 

I was honest with T from the beginning though, about how after a decade and parenthood with a person the feelings don't disappear. 

And I've been honest with X about how after divorce I fell for T.

It is what it is.


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## Evinrude58

Well I hope you wins up happy. Nothing wrong with falling in love with your wife again. Can't say I'd marry har again, though. Not like the vows meant that much to her the first time.....it kin kid just live with her for a while, tooy


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## warlock07

This is a bit unlike zillard we know . 

Going with a gut call instead of a calculated and measured approach like you usually do...

I hope everything turns out well for everyone.


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## zillard

warlock07 said:


> This is a bit unlike zillard we know .
> 
> Going with a gut call instead of a calculated and measured approach like you usually do...
> 
> I hope everything turns out well for everyone.


Haha. 

Through a careful analysis of the past I've calculated that I was bit too measured in my approach to life and careful inclusion of some impulsive gut calls could prove to be beneficial.


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## hope4family

zillard said:


> Haha.
> 
> Through a careful analysis of the past I've calculated that I was bit too measured in my approach to life and careful inclusion of some impulsive gut calls could prove to be beneficial.


Oh but I feel you have measured. 

You have found acceptance and stopped putting those you trust on a pedestal. Perhaps someday, I will learn to trust without doing the same. 

It is something I struggle with, so I constantly remind myself that we are only human, and people naturally think for themselves as much as I would. 

That being said, you are merely choosing to walk a path with your ex-wife and whatever the results are, so be it. 

I wish you happiness and I am rooting for you.


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## lenzi

zillard said:


> The extent of what happened does not matter to me.


Well, it matters whether or not she's been honest with you.

How about telling her you want her to take a lie detector test?


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## zillard

lenzi said:


> Well, it matters whether or not she's been honest with you.
> 
> How about telling her you want her to take a lie detector test?


If I felt that was necessary, I would. I don't.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tall

Good luck. I've read through your story before, and you have a solid head on your shoulders. This is going to work out well.


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## LongWalk

You are a TAM vet who knows about relationships. Your ex has changed a great deal.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## lenzi

zillard said:


> If I felt that was necessary, I would. I don't.]


You have posted on this thread that you don't know if she has been honest with you about the extent of her affair.

I suggested a lie detector test to help discover the truth. You feel that knowing the truth is "not necessary"??

How can you rebuild a relationship that may very well be based on lies?

Burying your head in the sand and pretending everything will be ok is a recipe for disaster.

Anyway good luck


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## hope4family

lenzi said:


> *Burying your head in the sand and pretending everything will be ok is a recipe for disaster.*
> 
> Anyway good luck


I agree. 

But they have already been divorced for over a year. Is going over every relationship she has had a recipe for success? 

The EA lead to a consequence = divorce. I think the whole story is that yes she has been in other relationships while going through and post divorce. 

If that's a deal breaker for you, then it's a valid one. If it's not a deal breaker for Z then it is also a valid one. 

I share Z's sentiment. A heartfelt apology and commitment to making it work is the most important thing of value to me. She has already "paid the consequence" for her affair. 

In terms of truth seeking. The fact that she is lying or trickle truth is her fault, not Z's. 

Z's mind is probably thinking, the consequence has already been paid. But the real testament (working on reconciling) is where the real truth of the soul comes out. Who gives a ship about one night or a series of nights compared risk/reward if his ex saying and then putting the work in to reconcile with him?


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## zillard

lenzi said:


> You have posted on this thread that you don't know if she has been honest with you about the extent of her affair.
> 
> I suggested a lie detector test to help discover the truth. You feel that knowing the truth is "not necessary"??
> 
> How can you rebuild a relationship that may very well be based on lies?
> 
> Burying your head in the sand and pretending everything will be ok is a recipe for disaster.
> 
> Anyway good luck


Thank you for your input. I see things differently. 

Trust your hunches. They're usually based on facts filed away just below the conscious level.
- Joyce Brothers

Truth is by nature self-evident. As soon as you remove the cobwebs of ignorance that surround it, it shines clear.
-Mahatma Gandhi

Any and every relationship MAY be based on lies and they all have the potential to end in disaster. Yet we don't walk around with lie detector tests. Why? Because we learn to trust our hunches and learn to detect lies on our own. The longer we've known a person, the easier this becomes. 

I did not need a lie detector test to know my X was lying to me before. It was apparent to me and I acted accordingly. 

I do not need one now to know that she is truly remorseful and committed to working on this relationship. 

I will proceed accordingly, and with work on both our parts, in and out of counseling, learn to trust her again.


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## Jellybeans

I wish you guys the best, Zillard. Truly.

I know a couple who divorced and got back together. Still together today.


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## Sbrown

You don't feel like "plan b" that was my first thought reading your op. She strayed for greener pastures, knowing all along how to pull you back if needed. She's an xw for a reason. Move on without all the crap she brings.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ms. GP

zillard said:


> For those who have reconciled after a long separation or divorce, what did you find beneficial and what would you have done differently?


From someone who has walked this path (quite successfully in my opinion), a good MC is a must. We had to learn to communicate and resolve problems from scratch. Neither of us wanted to fall into old patterns. We also made a point to just hang out without all the heavy serious relationship talk. Just have a little fun sometimes. Not rug sweeping just remembering why we fell in love in the first place.We just saved the serious stuff for MC. Didn't want to mess up the conversations so we let the pro help.

Oh and lots of sex helps too!!  Good luck. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## zillard

Sbrown said:


> You don't feel like "plan b" that was my first thought reading your op. She strayed for greener pastures, knowing all along how to pull you back if needed. She's an xw for a reason. Move on without all the crap she brings.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No.


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## Sbrown

Good luck....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ms. GP

Oh and one more thing, this may sound counterintuitive but we both supported each others interests seperate of each other. GP with his coaching and me with my working out and AA service work. People that feel good about themselves have a harder time falling in to the weeds of codependency and dysfunctional relationship patterns. Just my two cents.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## zillard

Sbrown said:


> Good luck....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you. 

Plan B is one thing. 

Waking up and realizing what you want in life, acknowledging mistakes, and recommitting with someone you truly love is another.

Keeping her ring and refusing to change her last name back, despite the fact that it infuriated her boyfriend, makes him Plan B, not me.


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## zillard

Ms. GP said:


> Oh and one more thing, this may sound counterintuitive but we both supported each others interests seperate of each other. GP with his coaching and me with my working out and AA service work. People that feel good about themselves have a harder time falling in to the weeds of codependency and dysfunctional relationship patterns. Just my two cents.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Excellent advice. 

She was actually always very good about supporting my interests. Time away with my brother, artistic endeavors, friday nights out with coworkers - she did a better job than I did in that respect. I need more work in that area than she does.


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## zillard

Ms. GP said:


> From someone who has walked this path (quite successfully in my opinion), a good MC is a must. We had to learn to communicate and resolve problems from scratch. Neither of us wanted to fall into old patterns. We also made a point to just hang out without all the heavy serious relationship talk. Just have a little fun sometimes. Not rug sweeping just remembering why we fell in love in the first place.We just saved the serious stuff for MC. Didn't want to mess up the conversations so we let the pro help.


Because I know you and GP's story, your input is highly valued, Ms GP. I appreciate it. 



Ms. GP said:


> Oh and lots of sex helps too!!  Good luck.


NOT a problem!


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## Sbrown

zillard said:


> Thank you.
> 
> Plan B is one thing.
> 
> Waking up and realizing what you want in life, acknowledging mistakes, and recommitting with someone you truly love is another.
> 
> Keeping her ring and refusing to change her last name back, despite the fact that it infuriated her boyfriend, makes him Plan B, not me.


Is that what she told you? She kept her ring and last name incase it didn't work out with her bf..... just my view from the cheap seats....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ThreeStrikes

When did you decide that you were still "in love" with her?


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## zillard

Sbrown said:


> She kept her ring and last name


...while she knew very well that I was starting a new family with someone else.


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## Sbrown

I think you need to step back and take a look at this. It seems you are missing the forest for the trees. If her bf had been the prince charming she just knew he was you would be someone she used to know.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## zillard

Sbrown said:


> I think you need to step back and take a look at this.


Clearly you don't know me very well. 



Sbrown said:


> It seems you are missing the forest for the trees. If her bf had been the prince charming she just knew he was you would be someone she used to know.


That's one possibility.


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## Sbrown

I don't know you at all...but from my very very very very limited view of this situation it looks like she has opted for plan b. And you have made up your mind that is not the case so....what else can I say.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## indiecat

Trust is the big issue, do you trust her? 

If you feel that she has come clean, and is truly remorseful then it's up to you.


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## zillard

Sbrown said:


> I don't know you at all...but from my very very very very limited view of this situation it looks like she has opted for plan b. And you have made up your mind that is not the case so....what else can I say.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I can see how you could reach that conclusion. And I've certainly thought about that and every other angle. 

I have made up my mind that is not the case, but not blindly.


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## bandit.45

All I can say is...

She better be giving you head. Lots of it. Daily.


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## tom67

bandit.45 said:


> All I can say is...
> 
> She better be giving you head. Lots of it. Daily.


:lol:


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## lenzi

zillard said:


> Keeping her ring and refusing to change her last name back, despite the fact that it infuriated her boyfriend, makes him Plan B, not me.


Maybe she was just comfortable with her last name. Lots of divorced women keep their married names. 

Maybe she kept the ring because it was valuable and just never got around to selling it.

Neither one of those things means that when she was with the other guy that he was some sort of "alternative plan". 



zillard said:


> I did not need a lie detector test to know my X was lying to me before. It was apparent to me and I acted accordingly...I do not need one now to know that she is truly remorseful and committed to working on this relationship.


She lied to you then. You still don't know if she's lying to you now. That's the bigger issue. If she's truly remorseful as you suggest, then she'll come clean. 



zillard said:


> She's told me her story. More details than before. More information about her mindset, need for attention/validation, emotional connection, fooling around a bit and sleeping in bed with him, cuddling.


Does she still insist they didn't have sex? 

The odds are that she did a lot more than just "cuddle" and I think you know that.

Yet you're willing to push all that aside in your haste to get back to your old life with her. As if none of this matters.


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## zillard

Could she be lying? Sure. If so, that's on her and she'll have to live with that. 

I'm OK with my decision. THAT's the biggest issue.


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## ThreeStrikes

Z,

What are your deal-breakers this time around?


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## Wolf9

When Z was in another relationship, even though it was quite serious but they weren't cohabiting. From what I have read, I think your XW was cohabiting with her BF1 & BF2. So when she finally reached to you in March 2014 ( probably during time period when she discovered your posts on TAM). 

I think it would have been better for R if she was single at that time for at least 2 months with introspection her decisions & their imact & it wasn't case of reaching out aftermath of break up with BF2.

Not that it's going to matter if R is successful in long term, in that case reaching out to you will prove blessing in disguise irrespective of her initial intentions specially for your daughter.


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## zillard

Wolf9 said:


> When Z was in another relationship, even though it was quite serious but they weren't cohabiting. From what I have read, I think your XW was cohabiting with her BF1 & BF2. So when she finally reached to you in March 2014 ( probably during time period when she discovered your posts on TAM).
> 
> I think it would have been better for R if she was single at that time for at least 2 months with introspection her decisions & their imact & it wasn't case of reaching out aftermath of break up with BF2.
> 
> Not that it's going to matter if R is successful in long term, in that case reaching out to you will prove blessing in disguise irrespective of her initial intentions specially for your daughter.


We started communicating beyond coparenting when we were both single, at least a month after her break up. She threw out some boundaries and asked for clarification on intentions, after which we both agreed on simply being friendly. 

I got back with T and threw up boundaries regarding our communications. Then her remorseful letter/email came about 4 months after her break up.


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## zillard

ThreeStrikes said:


> Z,
> 
> What are your deal-breakers this time around?


Pretty much the same as always, as with X, T and now NewGF.

A good relationship requires: 

*Commitment*
IC/MC when necessary
Respect for boundaries
Communication
Loving kindness
etc.

Nobody is perfect and we all make mistakes. So really it boils down to commitment. Without it, mistakes can't be overcome together. With it, many tools can be used to do that effectively.


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## Ms. GP

Has she done any IC?


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## zillard

Ms. GP said:


> Has she done any IC?


Yes. At first she had an aversion to it but now sees it as incredibly beneficial.


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## imjustwatching

So help me understand
she got what she need from the om then come back for you 
and you're happy with that ?


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## zillard

imjustwatching said:


> So help me understand
> she got what she need from the om then come back for you
> and you're happy with that ?


Yes, that's exactly how I see it. :sleeping:

Seriously, I often wonder why many people here even read the Reconciliation threads.

Help ME understand - when do YOU find R acceptable? Is forgiveness even something you consider? Exactly how long should one stay bitter?


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## Forest

After looking at some of your earlier threads, I have to ask:

Who is the big winner in this whole thing? Her or you?

It seems that she treated you terribly. To the point that she should never expect accommodation from you again in any lifetime.

Now I'll concede I have not gone thru your whole situation in-depth, so I may have missed important points. In a broad sense, though, it seems that the current happenings leave her with lots to gain, nothing to lose, and no clear insurance of future returns to you.

You seem to be the one extending the offer of riches and rewards to her, with little or nothing in return.

Just something to think on. Best of success with whatever you decide.


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## chazmataz3

Im sure you've given this plenty of thought. Ive just gone thru 3 weeks of listening to my brother who found out after 34 years that his wife no longer has feelings for him and has been sleeping with another man.what did I learn from this? its YOUR life and don't you dare let some of the people here TELL you what to do do. we are suppose to be giving suggestions NOT telling you what to do and then getting indignate when you don't jump through their hoops.personally I hope the best for you.:smthumbup:


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## zillard

Well, there really doesn't have to be a winner now does there? 

If there is one, the clear winner here is D8. 
And if things fail, the clear loser is D8. 

Semantics aside, these forums are full of some very good wisdom concerning the DS, BS, affair fog, MLCs, etc. The general consensus is that the D.S. or W.A.S. MUST come out of the fog before true R is possible. The OM/W must be completely out of the picture and the DS/WAS usually must hit rock bottom before waking up and turning themselves around. 

As consequence of her own actions and choices, this woman basically lost everything. Husband gone, daughter gone, job gone, OM gone, numerous friends and family gone, home gone. Then she shacked up with a BF. That didn't work either. 

Then on her own, she is picking herself back up, re-evaluating her life, seeing the value in IC, working again, reaching out to an XH who may or may not be receptive and acknowledging her mistakes. 

Rock bottom doesn't really leave you with many tangible things to lose, nor to offer. 

Now she is leaving the only family she has left in order to move to a place she doesn't like, where her only support system is MY very judgmental family. She is choosing to face her past, face me, face my family (who I myself have difficulty with), put her pride on a shelf, and work at being a mother and partner again, knowing that my expectations haven't changed much. 

I'd say she has plenty to lose. 

At the same time, I am in a better position to deal with whatever comes. I have support, I have stability, I've found strength as well as humility and acceptance. 

What do I have to lose? Some time? Money spent on therapy that I'd spend there anyway? Some tears? I'm OK with that.

What do I have to gain? Other than the possibility of a fulfilling relationship and ecstatic daughter, not much. Because I already have what I need.


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## 06Daddio08

Well, as long as she is able to support herself financially after she moves then you should be all fine and dandy. In the end if it doesn't work out and she isn't able to get her act together, well then you'll be up for child support and most likely 50 / 50 custody of your daughter. Seeing how she will be able to prove to the courts that she made an effort to re-establish herself and deserves all those wondrous things the government hands out like candy.

I am of course just playing the devils advocate here. Lol.


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## zillard

06Daddio08 said:


> Well, as long as she is able to support herself financially after she moves then you should be all fine and dandy. In the end if it doesn't work out and she isn't able to get her act together, well then you'll be up for child support and most likely 50 / 50 custody of your daughter. Seeing how she will be able to prove to the courts that she made an effort to re-establish herself and deserves all those wondrous things the government hands out like candy.
> 
> I am of course just playing the devils advocate here. Lol.


I know you are. Thought about that too. 

She already has an interim job secured here and is going through state certifications/licensing for a better one in her field.

If we don't work out and she wanted to be involved enough with D8 for 50/50, that's still a step up.


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## happyman64

Zillard



> What do I have to gain? Other than the possibility of a fulfilling relationship and ecstatic daughter, not much. Because I already have what I need.


The above comment says it all.

You are ready. You know what you are getting into.

Good Luck. Have fun.

And do not let anyone give you any sh!t for reconnecting with your Ex.

Living life is all about taking risks. 

If you lstill love her and want to be with her then take that leap of faith.

The key is to not look back but forward.

HM


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## Jellybeans

Zillard,

Your situation kind of reminds me of this movie (good movie, by the way):

Stuck in Love (2012) - IMDb

It's just a movie, I know, but yes, some exes do reconnect.


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## Ms. GP

Let's face it. The easier way for both of you would be to start over with someone new. She wouldn't have to face any of her issues or make any amends for her past transgressions. Neither would you. I firmly believe you get out of R what you Both put into it. The fact you both went to IC and are willing to go to MC is a great sign. The fact is nothing is going to fully reassure you right now. No amount of snooping or lie detector test is going to give you peace of mind. The only thing that will do that is consistent action on her part over time. I don't believe the old the marriage will never be as good philosophy some of the tamers try to shove down everyone's throat. In my case, I would say my marriage is better. We both put in a lot of hard work and now are enjoying the fruits of our labor. I wish you guys the same.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hope4family

Ms. GP said:


> Let's face it. The easier way for both of you would be to start over with someone new. She wouldn't have to face any of her issues or make any amends for her past transgressions. Neither would you. I firmly believe you get out of R what you Both put into it. The fact you both went to IC and are willing to go to MC is a great sign. *The fact is nothing is going to fully reassure you right now. No amount of snooping or lie detector test is going to give you peace of mind. The only thing that will do that is consistent action on her part over time.* I don't believe the old the marriage will never be as good philosophy some of the tamers try to shove down everyone's throat. In my case, I would say my marriage is better. We both put in a lot of hard work and now are enjoying the fruits of our labor. I wish you guys the same.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This. 

I am pretty guilty of this. 

Seeing things through my own eyes, I admire his opportunistic approach.


----------



## warlock07

Z, a little clarity about your pov here.

If there are still lies about the details her first affair, do they matter or do they not? 
Not because the details but the fact she is still lying and can lie to you about it ?


----------



## zillard

warlock07 said:


> Z, a little clarity about your pov here.
> 
> If there are still lies about the details her first affair, do they matter or do they not?
> Not because the details but the fact she is still lying and can lie to you about it ?


She CAN lie to me. I have no control over that. I will not force her to be honest. She either is/will be or not. 

I WILL have doubts and suspicions. Working through those with her in MC is what we've chosen to do. 

If she hasn't given me the truth, that will become apparent in time. And we'll deal with it. If we both choose to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Honestly, I believe she's been honest. But when we get into discussions about it, I do think she tries to minimize it a bit. I understand that reticence though. Again, that's where MC comes in. 

I don't think she fully comprehends that I don't care about how far things went. My threshold was reached as soon as I woke up alone with my wife at another man's house. 

Anything else is just details.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## larry.gray

zillard said:


> I don't think she fully comprehends that I don't care about how far things went. My threshold was reached as soon as I woke up alone with my wife at another man's house.


That's a pretty profound statement right there Z. I wish you the best of luck.


----------



## hope4family

larry.gray said:


> That's a pretty profound statement right there Z. I wish you the best of luck.


Profoundly healthy. For him anyway.


----------



## Summer4744

zillard said:


> Honestly, I believe she's been honest. But when we get into discussions about it, I do think she tries to minimize it a bit. I understand that reticence though. Again, that's where MC comes in.
> 
> I don't think she fully comprehends that I don't care about how far things went. My threshold was reached as soon as I woke up alone with my wife at another man's house.
> 
> Anything else is just details.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I respect your strong mindset, and unwillingness to compromise being trampled on. But to me if you are considering reconciliation, if there is even the chance, then it is important to dig deeper and know the truth.

Knowing you were betrayed is enough to divorce with piece of mind. But what if you reconsile and get married again? To me there would be something missing unless I knew the whole truth, all of it. There is a big difference between cuddling and having sex 50 times, and while you may have peace of mind now if you reconsile expect to have those mind movies come back if you really don't know what happened.


----------



## Ripper

I believe this could actually work. Both parties have changed, lived apart for a time, and she got a healthy dose of consequences. That being said, I still agree with bandit.45's post. 



bandit.45 said:


> Live together but don't ever get re-married. That should be her ultimate consequence: she never gets to call herself your wife again.


If you do start hearing wedding bells, make sure you got a pre-nup that CYA. You got very lucky last time in regards to child custody.

Anyway, good luck. Hope it all works out for you.


----------



## imjustwatching

you said she give you more details , how far did she go with him , and why it didnt work
- and one last question what she's doing to show true remorse


----------



## farsidejunky

Z:

I just finished your thread marathon over the last 4 days. Playing catch up with you is kind of hard when you are two years late to a party.

I know you don't believe, but I will be praying for the three of you. For you, to be able to overcome the one that hurt you over a series of two years. For her, to be able to put her demons behind her and honor you as it should be. But most especially for your daughter, who as you have noted, is the true loser in this whole thing if it does not work out.

As for what you do and do not believe, the timing of T and the X has the look and feel of a God thing. That is my belief. I will definitely be keeping up to see where this goes and I wish you guys the best.


----------



## Ceegee

Z,

Hope all is well...first time here in the R sub-forum as I obviously know nothing about the subject. 

How has D8 handled T's absence and that of her own daughter?

Is D8 still seeing a therapist? If so, have you clued the therapist in on you and NGF's intentions?


----------



## Kevinb

Well Done Z. Good luck with it all Mate. Wishing you the best.


----------



## harrybrown

You are a much better man than I am, I would not be able to let her back in after she was with another man, when she was supposed to be in bed with me, her husband.

I do hope she realizes what a wonderful gift she is receiving.

Would she do the same for you if the roles were reversed?

Hope she can stay true this time.

Are you going to marry her or just stay as GF/ BF?

hope you both find happiness together.


----------



## just got it 55

zillard said:


> I can see how you could reach that conclusion. And I've certainly thought about that and every other angle.
> 
> I have made up my mind that is not the case, but not blindly.


Hi Zee Interesting development Go Figure

I have been around your threads long enough to know you have done your homework on this.

How has D8 responded ?

Not that it really matters but it helps that your family are in support or your decision Is this the case ?

I know you need to resist the fixer in you are you up for that as well?

Really hope for all the best

55


----------



## FisharnEked

bandit.45 said:


> All I can say is...
> 
> She better be giving you head. Lots of it. Daily.



Naaaaaaaa, thats just a temporary "bandaid"...

Well, maybe that would make everything better :scratchhead:


----------



## bandit.45

FisharnEked said:


> Naaaaaaaa, thats just a temporary "bandaid"...
> 
> Well, maybe that would make everything better :scratchhead:


A BJ is better than a sharp stick in the eye.


----------



## tom67

bandit.45 said:


> A BJ is better than a sharp stick in the eye.


----------



## Chuck71

As usual, I add my thoughts late. There are certain things to be said

about getting D and dating again after time has passed. My parents 

did this. Pop "stole" mom's car and drove three states away to see

some girl. This was in '66, they were married a month. NYE '67 he 

calls her up and they start talking. Remarried six months later.

No telling what was said in those chats. There were pros and cons

for them getting back together. I came along.... now for the pros LOL

No matter who you begin to date, you take a leap of faith. Things were

never the same with my 1st and 2nd love after we got back together but...

maybe it was because, there was not anything there. When I got "the letter"

from my X, if we had children, I would like to say, maybe I would have 

looked at it differently. In a weird, twisted way, the way I felt about the letter

in May '14 was super similar to how Mike felt about Cara's letter in book #3.

That part was written in the summer of 2012...several months before my

own personal DDay. I accidentally gave a friend some great advice earlier

this year and was reminded of it when they renewed their vows....I think in

some ways, it related to Z and his ex. "You can't buy tomorrows with 

yesterday's money" Always remember Z, it is the journey we take, the destination

is simply the result of the journey.


----------



## BrokenVows

I wish you the best of luck, Zillard. You know in your gut what is right, nobody else knows exactly what you are going through or the day to day details of your relationship. Live life happy, don't look back, just forward.


----------



## jr92gp

Zillard,

How are the two of you doing?


----------



## zillard

Well, she broke her leg and is focused on healing before returning to work. I'm swamped with 200 pieces for new 6 story building in bangalore. D8 goes back to school this week. 

We are all stressed but excited to see other side of our goals. 

And then... we'll focus on "and then".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

R is definitely not all roses. It's hard. 

We have fought. I've made her sleep in the spare room already. 

I've also woken up to find notes on my nightstand, marker messages on the bathroom mirror, etc. Have left for guy time with my brother and returned to a clean house with dinner prepped, even though she's on crutches. 

I still have concerns. Still wary. I think that's natural and will be there for quite some time. 

When I call her out, she gets defensive and sometimes nasty. But if I don't overreact to that and just firmly wait without trying to fix, she clearly puts more effort into making up than she does toward her defensiveness in the moment. 

Unless I egg her on. I need more fine tuning too. 

Walking on eggshells is no good, but throwing eggs is also counterproductive.


----------



## tom67

Like my 2 yr old nephew had started biting other kids at day care. Thinks he's a little drakula I guess..
I digress one day at a time.
It will be a hoot when sis and bil introduce him to his brother on Wed.
That was cool she did all that on crutches though.


----------



## Chuck71

Starting over from scratch....with triggers....touched with 

compare / contrast. Expected. Two of you are taking the 

tougher path but....the better path. Nothing magical in life

comes easy...wouldn't be magical if it did. Mike and Cara went

through this when they met for the first time in 15 years.


----------



## zillard

I have to say I love my new place. Almost every meal lately has something from the garden.

Lately I eat a fresh tomato from the garden or a bowl full of blackberries as a snack before lunch. Or an apricot smoothie. 

The neighbors behind me are passing me corn and crook neck yellow squash, my peppers are almost ready and I have plenty of carrots to dip in hummus. Apples will be ready soon. 

Took chica on a drive through the canyon the other day. Less than 5 miles from the house is national forest. Cooked dinner over a fire in the backyard Sunday night. 

As far as outdoor adventurism goes, she's not on par with Tiger. I doubt I'll ever go backpacking or skydiving with NGF. But as far as LTRs go, Tiger is not on par with NGF (T was all fun with no commitment). 

Is all good. My task - don't stop... do those things with the guys that do.


----------



## tom67

zillard said:


> I have to say I love my new place. Almost every meal lately has something from the garden.
> 
> Lately I eat a fresh tomato from the garden or a bowl full of blackberries as a snack before lunch. Or an apricot smoothie.
> 
> The neighbors behind me are passing me corn and crook neck yellow squash, my peppers are almost ready and I have plenty of carrots to dip in hummus. Apples will be ready soon.
> 
> Took chica on a drive through the canyon the other day. Less than 5 miles from the house is national forest. Cooked dinner over a fire in the backyard Sunday night.
> 
> As far as outdoor adventurism goes, she's not on par with Tiger. I doubt I'll ever go backpacking or skydiving with NGF. But as far as LTRs go, Tiger is not on par with NGF (T was all fun with no commitment).
> 
> Is all good. My task - don't stop... do those things with the guys that do.


Stop it already you bastage and open a farmstand by me.


----------



## Chuck71

we know all about a couple in a garden.... don't eat the apple


----------



## tom67

Chuck71 said:


> we know all about a couple in a garden.... don't eat the apple


----------



## farsidejunky

Glad to hear you are doing well, Z.; keep at it. Nothing in life worth doing comes easy.


----------



## jr92gp

zillard said:


> R is definitely not all roses. It's hard.
> 
> We have fought. I've made her sleep in the spare room already.
> 
> I've also woken up to find notes on my nightstand, marker messages on the bathroom mirror, etc. Have left for guy time with my brother and returned to a clean house with dinner prepped, even though she's on crutches.
> 
> I still have concerns. Still wary. I think that's natural and will be there for quite some time.
> 
> When I call her out, she gets defensive and sometimes nasty. But if I don't overreact to that and just firmly wait without trying to fix, she clearly puts more effort into making up than she does toward her defensiveness in the moment.
> 
> Unless I egg her on. I need more fine tuning too.
> 
> Walking on eggshells is no good, but throwing eggs is also counterproductive.


It's likely necessary for both of you to call each other out. There can be no eggshells for either of you. 

Going on the defensive then putting extra effort in to making up must be exhausting, though the "making up" is nice.

Sounds like you guys are doing great. I'm sure D appreciates the effort. Is she aware of how difficult this is?


----------



## farsidejunky

Z:

Just one question. Are your arguments amplified because of your history and attempting reconciliation, or are they on par with the disagreements that you and tiger had?


----------



## zillard

farsidejunky said:


> Z:
> 
> Just one question. Are your arguments amplified because of your history and attempting reconciliation, or are they on par with the disagreements that you and tiger had?


Not sure what you're fishing for there. Of course they are. We have a much longer history than me and T. We try to keep the past in the past but it surfacing is inevitable. How long we allow it to in the heat of the moment is the test. 

T and I didn't really argue. She avoided confrontation like the plague. When I brought something up her boyfriend was mad for some reason so she withdrew and severely limited any contact.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: I have a new GF – my XW*



zillard said:


> Not sure what you're fishing for there. Of course they are. We have a much longer history than me and T. We try to keep the past in the past but it surfacing is inevitable. How long we allow it to in the heat of the moment is the test.
> 
> T and I didn't really argue. She avoided confrontation like the plague. When I brought something up her boyfriend was mad for some reason so she withdrew and severely limited any contact.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I was asking because I was curious how you guys were progressing. Getting historical resentment out of arguments makes them about now, rather than now and then.

I think this is an important indicator in repairing things. That was all.


----------



## zillard

farsidejunky said:


> Getting historical resentment out of arguments makes them about now, rather than now and then.
> 
> I think this is an important indicator in repairing things.


I completely agree with you. We both are making progress there and we both definitely need that progress to continue.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: I have a new GF – my XW*



zillard said:


> I completely agree with you. We both are making progress there and we both definitely need that progress to continue.


I am glad you updated. I am hoping for you two. Please keep us in the loop.


----------



## zillard

She completely resents the fact that I used a VAR. I honestly could care less. It was used for a reason and I'd do it again. 

Last night something happened which reinforced my stance there. When talking of her returning to work, she's convinced she told me she was scheduled for 7-8 hour shifts, which the doctor prohibited. What she actually told me was she was scheduled for more hours than typical. Because I knew she was scheduled for more days than typical, I thought that was it. I made an assumption, yes. Yet again her argument is that I never listen to anything she says.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Garry2012

zillard said:


> She completely resents the fact that I used a VAR. I honestly could care less. It was used for a reason and I'd do it again.
> 
> Last night something happened which reinforced my stance there. When talking of her returning to work, she's convinced she told me she was scheduled for 7-8 hour shifts, which the doctor prohibited. What she actually told me was she was scheduled for more hours than typical. Because I knew she was scheduled for more days than typical, I thought that was it. I made an assumption, yes. Yet again her argument is that I never listen to anything she says.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I got this too Z. The biggest thing that made X angry was the fact that I recorded her. I was like you... I told her..."yeah...i thought you were cheating...and I was RIGHT! so it validated my suspicion". I would def do it again.


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> I got this too Z. The biggest thing that made X angry was the fact that I recorded her. I was like you... I told her..."yeah...i thought you were cheating...and I was RIGHT! so it validated my suspicion". I would def do it again.


Ha. If someone never listens to you, wouldn't a VAR be a good thing?


----------



## Chaparral

Misunderstanding and not listening are two different things.

Also, Mrs. Bruner in 101 English class made it very clear that the speaker has the responsibility to make sure their message is understood. The listener has no way to know what the message is.


----------



## HobbesTheTiger

Wait, she's still upset now/at the moment that you used the VAR in the past, when she was cheating?


----------



## Garry2012

HobbesTheTiger said:


> Wait, she's still upset now/at the moment that you used the VAR in the past, when she was cheating?


In my case, she was extremely upset that I essentially spied on her, and used such underhanded methods to prove she was having an affair...in her mind I think, somehow, that me recoding is as bad as the affair itself. Is that your situation too Z?


----------



## Chuck71

Sorry but all is fair in love and war...well add divorce but isn't that 

like a war? Was she mad at the fact, she thinks you betrayed her trust,

regardless of the outcome.....or.... you used this technique under 

their watch. You don't trust me, you betrayed our oath....yeah you 

broke our vow....to bang POSOMs until the high wore off.

Dredging up the past is a slippery slope but in Zs case, it will

happen. Tit for tat, kill my dog, I kill your cat. Translation:

urinating contest 401. Z when you and X were separating, the 

concerted theme was...the negatives only. Now you are trying to R

and utilize the positives. We come to transparency. Either both are

Allies (think GB and Russia, same side, little trust) or it is Allies / Axis.

We know where that leads. Shawshank Redemption....Morgan Freeman

"Get busy living, or get busy dying." Elementary but still...... a true

complexity. Pop was very bad at speaking before he thought.

That is one thing he stressed to me, 'think before you speak.'


----------



## TheGoodGuy

Z, how goes it brother? Have you had a good holiday weekend?


----------



## zillard

X is still hobbling with a broken leg. Getting better though and tromping around without the crutches which is good. 

Family members planned a holiday camping trip. I got my gear together and went into the mountains alone, expecting company. Nobody showed up. I was pissed at first but embraced the situation and had a very nice relaxing camping trip under the stars by myself. Some good time to decompress and contemplate. 

Later in the weekend had a big family gathering st my parents house. X and everyone got along great. It was nice. 

Busting my ass this week at work and preparing for x's bday. A good friend of hers and I have been talking and she and her man are coming here to surprise her this weekend. Yeah she reads this but no clue which friend. Is driving her nuts and I'm thoroughly enjoying that. 

In anticipation, she is busting her ass cleaning the house top to bottom which I'm not gonna complain about. . 

Things are going great. We're having fun and enjoying each others company. Laughing more often than not. Harvesting the garden. Taking good care of d8... together. 

I'm pleased.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tom67

zillard said:


> X is still hobbling with a broken leg. Getting better though and tromping around without the crutches which is good.
> 
> Family members planned a holiday camping trip. I got my gear together and went into the mountains alone, expecting company. Nobody showed up. I was pissed at first but embraced the situation and had a very nice relaxing camping trip under the stars by myself. Some good time to decompress and contemplate.
> 
> Later in the weekend had a big family gathering st my parents house. X and everyone got along great. It was nice.
> 
> Busting my ass this week at work and preparing for x's bday. A good friend of hers and I have been talking and she and her man are coming here to surprise her this weekend. Yeah she reads this but no clue which friend. Is driving her nuts and I'm thoroughly enjoying that.
> 
> In anticipation, she is busting her ass cleaning the house top to bottom which I'm not gonna complain about. .
> 
> Things are going great. We're having fun and enjoying each others company. Laughing more often than not. Harvesting the garden. Taking good care of d8... together.
> 
> I'm pleased.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Cool


----------



## Chuck71

I was about to ask, is she still reading your thread as well. On many

levels, her reading your posts are a top tier version of IC and MC. 

How is the "now" between you and her going, in comparison to... how

it was in the Fall of 2011? I'm not advocating any illegal usage

but MCs used to prescribe (yes I am shaking my head too) MDMA

for couples in struggling Ms or attempting to reconnect. It is different

than the book I will recommend but it has numerous similarities, 

Aldus Huxley's "Doors of Perception." Jim Morrison named his band

after the book. But hey..... what do I know?


----------



## MyTurn

I'm happy for you Z.


----------



## Kevinb

Good on you Z...I'm happy for you too Mate


----------



## TheGoodGuy

Very cool to hear. I wish you and X much happiness.


----------



## farsidejunky

Awesome, brother. Keep at it.


----------



## zillard

Sometimes I feel like I need a chess clock. Slap the button down, it's my turn. I made my move, now you can slap it and show me your move. Limited time only, then back to me. Rook to L5. Go!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

A little on the cryptic side, Z. Care to elaborate?


----------



## Chuck71

If you do _____ and follow with _____ and smile, I will do _____.

A WIIFM moment. what's in it for me. 

But....I could be wrong


----------



## Ceegee

Part of rebuilding trust.


----------



## zillard

Wiifm is definitely there. But more so, it's about avoiding the drama triangle. Something that at times seems impossible. Especially when both of us are not accustomed to me speaking up immediately. It leads to arguments more often than not. And I won't say it's all her fault. Often it's due to my own lack of endurance with CFD. 

Ultimately though. Great practice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

Nothing like a good old fashion cuss fight. My parents had then, I would

listen just to learn new cuss words and show it off at school. It is

better to continually reinforce your boundaries than let them lax.

Practice makes 'perfect.' Have a no fight day. You may write down

enough on that day to make the next day a rhubarb in utaw but... it's

a start. Keep working at the CFD. Smiling and walking away does 

not mean you conceded, it just means you do not wish to engage

(at the moment.


----------



## Ynot

What is CFD? And Z I hope some day to join your reconciliation club.


----------



## Chuck71

cool, firm, dispassionate


----------



## zillard

Ynot said:


> What is CFD? And Z I hope some day to join your reconciliation club.


First step is 180. Be cool with yourself, with no expectations of the future other than being cool with who you are.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

So what do you do when she throws her wedding ring at you?

Is that a good sign? :absolut:


----------



## larry.gray

Chuck71 said:


> cool, firm, dispassionate


OK, that makes much more sense than computational fluid dynamics.


----------



## Chuck71

zillard said:


> So what do you do when she throws her wedding ring at you?
> 
> Is that a good sign? :absolut:


well..... you are communicating :rofl:


----------



## Kevinb

So, how is things going for you Z


----------



## Ceegee

zillard said:


> So what do you do when she throws her wedding ring at you?
> 
> 
> 
> Is that a good sign? :absolut:



Leave it where it lies.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: I have a new GF – my XW*



zillard said:


> So what do you do when she throws her wedding ring at you?
> 
> Is that a good sign? :absolut:


Zillard:

PM Asladain that question. He has a pretty funny response/story for it.


----------



## ButtPunch

zillard said:


> So what do you do when she throws her wedding ring at you?
> 
> Is that a good sign? :absolut:


That's better than a brick.


----------



## LongWalk

Farside,

What's the story?


----------



## farsidejunky

Just cleared with Asladain... lol

Akinaura would throw her wedding band at him. He finally had enough and told her if she ever did it again, he would cut it in pieces.

He has a picture of it in four pieces... lol

And yes, they are obviously still together AND happy.


----------



## zillard

farsidejunky said:


> Just cleared with Asladain... lol
> 
> Akinaura would throw her wedding band at him. He finally had enough and told her if she ever did it again, he would cut it in pieces.
> 
> He has a picture of it in four pieces... lol
> 
> And yes, they are obviously still together AND happy.


I left it on the floor. She forgot about it and went to bed. D8 found it in the morning. 

Not my job to explain, so I didn't.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

if she has an issue, she can come to you

your Mr. Fixer job was eliminated almost two years ago


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: I have a new GF – my XW*



zillard said:


> I left it on the floor. She forgot about it and went to bed. D8 found it in the morning.
> 
> Not my job to explain, so I didn't.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Other than the snippets of information you have put out, how are things progressing overall?


----------



## zillard

Tonight we had an argument about cooking. I've previously expressed that I'm not OK with providing meals for us three every night, and in a partnership, I expect a 50/50 split. 

She says she has problems cooking for me because I usually don't eat meat nor dairy. She gets satisfaction and validation from cooking for others and having them enjoy their meals. She isn't confident that I will enjoy her meals, so "why bother".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tom67

zillard said:


> Tonight we had an argument about cooking. I've previously expressed that I'm not OK with providing meals for us three every night, and in a partnership, I expect a 50/50 split.
> 
> She says she has problems cooking for me because I usually don't eat meat nor dairy. She gets satisfaction and validation from cooking for others and having them enjoy their meals. She isn't confident that I will enjoy her meals, so "why bother".
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ugh if she wants a steak fine and you want fish other pan good grief this isn't rocket science.


----------



## zillard

tom67 said:


> Ugh if she wants a steak fine and you want fish other pan good grief this isn't rocket science.


I grill steak for her. And cook something for me. Easy peasy, let's bbq and have a good time!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Throw a bunch of veggies with sauce in a foil pack, and toss on a black bean burger and I'm good.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tom67

zillard said:


> Throw a bunch of veggies with sauce in a foil pack, and toss on a black bean burger and I'm good.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


As they say KISS
Keep it simple stooopid


----------



## Chuck71

zillard said:


> Tonight we had an argument about cooking. I've previously expressed that I'm not OK with providing meals for us three every night, and in a partnership, I expect a 50/50 split.
> 
> She says she has problems cooking for me because I usually don't eat meat nor dairy. She gets satisfaction and validation from cooking for others and having them enjoy their meals. She isn't confident that I will enjoy her meals, so "why bother".
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


McDonald's is hiring

keep your boundaries.

I have mine. UG was in for a huge shock.

:smthumbup:


----------



## tom67

Chuck71 said:


> McDonald's is hiring
> 
> keep your boundaries.
> 
> I have mine. UG was in for a huge shock.
> 
> :smthumbup:


You bastage.
I do not like where this conversation is headed.
Conrad flashback.


----------



## tom67

Classic
The Lost Fedex Online Ad - Presentation Guy (Original Version) - YouTube


----------



## zillard

Another argument. I admit I made an incorrect assumption. Based in that assumption I responded poorly and incorrectly. She argued it and I admitted my argument was wrong due to my wrong assumption. 

Immediately, everything I said tonight was wrong. And I was completely unfair tonight. 

Now I ask her... what incentive do I have to admit when I am wrong. if that admission absolves you of everything you said tonight? 

As Conrad would say, you're talking to her like you would a man. 

Does that make women less? No. That means communication with a man and a woman 
should differ. 

...and I have room to grow there. 

None of that absolves her from her own growth path.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

zillard said:


> Another argument. I admit I made an incorrect assumption. Based in that assumption I responded poorly and incorrectly. She argued it and I admitted my argument was wrong due to my wrong assumption.
> 
> Immediately, everything I said tonight was wrong. And I was completely unfair tonight.
> 
> Now I ask her... what incentive do I have to admit when I am wrong. if that admission absolves you of everything you said tonight?
> 
> As Conrad would say, you're talking to her like you would a man.
> 
> Does that make women less? No. That means communication with a man and a woman
> should differ.
> 
> ...and I have room to grow there.
> 
> None of that absolves her from her own growth path.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


More detail, I thought I copied her in the email to her grandparents in 2013 and didn't. 

Meanwhile, d8 wakes up to go pee and tells me that when she wakes to us arguing she is afraid. 

After I am adamant and remove myself to the garage. I ask if x wants to know. After hearing the reason, she tells me that parents will disagree. 

I ask if she should be forced to hear that. She says that reality is better than us hiding our disagreements in the garage. She grew up with much worse and turned out fine. We shouldn't have to seclude ourselves if we have an argument. 

I disagree. 150%
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Kevinb

Depending on the argument...if it's a full blown screaming match, yes, the kid should not have to see that. But it's just a disagreement well then I think she's right. Kids tend to be wrapped in cotton wool these days and if they can see their parents arguing provided there is no physical or emotional abuse taking place...well then they may learn how to resolve things and in turn may learn some resilience...just my humble opinion...


----------



## zillard

Kevinb said:


> Depending on the argument...if it's a full blown screaming match, yes, the kid should not have to see that. But it's just a disagreement well then I think she's right. Kids tend to be wrapped in cotton wool these days and if they can see their parents arguing provided there is no physical or emotional abuse taking place...well then they may learn how to resolve things and in turn may learn some resilience...just my humble opinion...


If it's a disagreement that we both would feel comfortable having in front of our daughter, I agree with you. 

Any disagreement that is loud enough to wake her up is not in that category. 

And we are both to blame there. Any time that happens, no matter who "wins".


----------



## Wolf9

Your daughter is afraid that arguing may lead to separation again rather than actual argument. I hope it's much better year for her compared to last.


----------



## Pluto2

zillard said:


> Tonight we had an argument about cooking. I've previously expressed that I'm not OK with providing meals for us three every night, and in a partnership, I expect a 50/50 split.
> 
> She says she has problems cooking for me because I usually don't eat meat nor dairy. She gets satisfaction and validation from cooking for others and having them enjoy their meals. She isn't confident that I will enjoy her meals, so "why bother".
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I heard the same thing from my ex and I think it still sounds like BS. I would occasionally cook meat for him even though I've been a vegetarian for 25 years. No reciprocation. Get her a cookbook and she can experience the joy of mastering a new recipe.

Z, things sound strained, or are you just reporting the tiffs?


----------



## spun

Z,

Are you both still pursuing IC?

So often the argument has little to do with the present issue at hand.

Once each of you unearths and understands the underlying trigger(s) for these arguments, the path forward becomes more clear.


----------



## just got it 55

zillard said:


> Tonight we had an argument about cooking. I've previously expressed that I'm not OK with providing meals for us three every night, and in a partnership, I expect a 50/50 split.
> 
> She says she has problems cooking for me because I usually don't eat meat nor dairy. She gets satisfaction and validation from cooking for others and having them enjoy their meals. She isn't confident that I will enjoy her meals, so "why bother".
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


ZEEE as I remember she taught you how to make a great tomato sauce No ?

Lot's of veggie meals can start with that one component.

So glad you are doing well and holding on to your boundries.

55


----------



## just got it 55

zillard said:


> If it's a disagreement that we both would feel comfortable having in front of our daughter, I agree with you.
> 
> Any disagreement that is loud enough to wake her up is not in that category.
> 
> And we are both to blame there. Any time that happens, no matter who "wins".


A disagreement in front of children can be a learning experience for conflict resolution

Circular screaming matches...... well enter the drams triangle.

Check that sh!t at the curb

55


----------



## zillard

spun said:


> Z,
> 
> Are you both still pursuing IC?
> 
> So often the argument has little to do with the present issue at hand.
> 
> Once each of you unearths and understands the underlying trigger(s) for these arguments, the path forward becomes more clear.


Excellent question. 

No. I have not. 

It should be a high priority but is hard to make it so. Mainly due to money. With her moving in I've refused to pay her bills. Even though she works she still has a cell phone that doesn't work. I am providing shelter, food, and amenities for us all which makes it difficult to also pay for our counseling. 

When she moved here I required that she owned the move. She relied on her grandmother to move her belongings here. That fell through and she told me all she wanted was to be here with us, so she came with next to nothing. Due to that she is paying storage fees for her stuff. 

Now she wants me to relocate her stuff as a Christmas present. That's what is in her wish list. But it comes with a 2k price tag which I am not prepared nor willing to spend due to our agreement. 

This is the source of much of our contention. Or at least on my end. 

She agreed to do many things coming back. She hasn't and isn't. Even simple things like reading a book have taken months. 

Ultimately, I think she wants to be here. But I don't think she wants it enough to do much about it. 

As chuck said, showing up is not enough.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## PBear

After catching up on your thread, I'm going back to my first post in it. Having her move in was a bad idea. She should have moved there on her own, and you two could have dated. Now... Not sure what your solution is to continuing improvements. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

PBear said:


> After catching up on your thread, I'm going back to my first post in it. Having her move in was a bad idea. She should have moved there on her own, and you two could have dated. Now... Not sure what your solution is to continuing improvements.
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I hear you... now.


----------



## PBear

Sorry, man. You don't need "I told you so", you need solutions. In particular, I'm concerned about how all this is affecting your child. You may want to look into family counseling, to make sure her issues are being addressed while you and your "new GF" work on things. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

PBear said:


> Sorry, man. You don't need "I told you so", you need solutions. In particular, I'm concerned about how all this is affecting your child. You may want to look into family counseling, to make sure her issues are being addressed while you and your "new GF" work on things.
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am too. 

D8 has responded very well to having her mom back home. Indisputable. However, I can tell she fears us splitting again. She is very bright and perceptive. She sees the tension. And I can't promise her anything to make her feel better. 

X/NGF says she is open to counseling. But as far as I can tell, that's only if I find a counselor she is comfortable with, I set the appointments that work with her schedule, and I pay for the sessions. 

She wants to be here. As far as I can tell, that's only if I am never a ****, I provide for us all, and I don't require too much of her (an interpretation that is up to her, not me). 

The reading she expressed interest in beforehand, no longer interests her. If I have to pull teeth to get her to read anything, I doubt that it will do any good. 

I don't see any progression in our relationship. It feels as though she wants to come back and have everything as it was before. But that didn't work. So it won't again. 

Then I was a husband. I saw it as my job to provide whatever she wanted. That is no longer my role. I am fine with that. I don't feel that she is. If I want the relationship to progress, things need to happen, vs. focusing on things that should NOT happen. And in my new role, I see that if the relationship is to progress, I am responsible for 50% of those things. I can't be the one providing all the reading material. I can't be the one making sure the books I choose are read. I can't be the only one asking, "how do we move forward?" 

It MUST be a joint effort. I must fulfill my part. And I must allow her to choose to fulfill hers... or not. 

I'm fine with playing the pilot role. But I need a co-pilot, not a passenger.


----------



## PBear

Keep in mind what else i said in my first post. Hold on to your NUTS. Your key values that you won't give up. If she's not willing to abide by your needs, you know what you need to do. And it's not going to get easier the longer this goes on. For you or your daughter. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Kevinb

zillard said:


> I am too.
> 
> D8 has responded very well to having her mom back home. Indisputable. However, I can tell she fears us splitting again. She is very bright and perceptive. She sees the tension. And I can't promise her anything to make her feel better.
> 
> X/NGF says she is open to counseling. But as far as I can tell, that's only if I find a counselor she is comfortable with, I set the appointments that work with her schedule, and I pay for the sessions.
> 
> She wants to be here. As far as I can tell, that's only if I am never a ****, I provide for us all, and I don't require too much of her (an interpretation that is up to her, not me).
> 
> 
> 
> The reading she expressed interest in beforehand, no longer interests her. If I have to pull teeth to get her to read anything, I doubt that it will do any good.
> 
> I don't see any progression in our relationship. It feels as though she wants to come back and have everything as it was before. But that didn't work. So it won't again.
> 
> Then I was a husband. I saw it as my job to provide whatever she wanted. That is no longer my role. I am fine with that. I don't feel that she is. If I want the relationship to progress, things need to happen, vs. focusing on things that should NOT happen. And in my new role, I see that if the relationship is to progress, I am responsible for 50% of those things. I can't be the one providing all the reading material. I can't be the one making sure the books I choose are read. I can't be the only one asking, "how do we move forward?"
> 
> It MUST be a joint effort. I must fulfill my part. And I must allow her to choose to fulfill hers... or not.
> 
> I'm fine with playing the pilot role. But I need a co-pilot, not a passenger.


Fair Enough


----------



## ButtPunch

It's hard for people to change who they are.


----------



## jr92gp

ButtPunch said:


> It's hard for people to change who they are.


Especially if we enable them.

Z, you've made it easy for her, and unfortunately established a precedent. Reestablish slipping boundaries or strengthen what you've already established.


----------



## Chuck71

You have led her to the water but....can't make 'em drink it.

I'm sure there have been great times since she moved, and some bad

Compared to her lifestyle in 2013, she still sees you as a rescuer, even

though you are not. She is feeling a lot of guilt and "delayed detachment"

When I have decided to work through problems in a R, I dig in

and expect the same of the other. When one gives 110%, the other notices

but pulls back (passenger, not co-pilot) for their comfort and...reduced chance

of being the one giving more. You have to look out for yourself but, in a 

relationship....it's not one person, it's two. Before I started grad school, I was 

looking for work and with my botched surgery...I can't exactly work anywhere

I would like to. Instead of offering support and brainstorming possible jobs,

all I heard from WC was "when are you getting a job?" Very counter-productive...

another brick in The Wall. It didn't help I was extremely frustrated already.

I would think...is she here to help me or hinder me? Z I have a few things I need 

to send you in PMs.


----------



## Lifescript

Hi Z, 

Was wondering how things were going in reconciliation with your ex. Sad to see some of the same problems are back in the fold. Therapy is needed for her to resolve those issues. Keep enforcing your boundaries. Good luck man.


----------



## jackskellington

Here's an easy answer - quit arguing. It's not as hard as it sounds. She's a person with her own wants and ideas just like you. If she goes off on you, let her argue and don't respond. Don't try to fix her, that never works. My life got 100% better after I quit arguing. Now, if my wife is in a bad mood and starts an argument, I state my case and then refuse to argue any more. She will then attempt to escalate, and I just won't. Of course, if compromise is needed, I will. But usually she will calm down when her emotions are more under control and apologize.


----------



## Chuck71

a positive comment is, a positive nonwithstanding

it can be deciphered any way you like

but it is a step, a process, nothing overnight

we all chase money but is it really what we seek?

It's not....but if you read these threads.........


----------



## billy baru

Z, I just got finished with all 3 of your threads. You're a better man than me. I could never attempt to R with my STBXW. 

Hope things work out for you!

BB


----------



## TheGoodGuy

Z, how are you man? How goes things with your Ex-ex? Plans for the Holidays? Is your family accepting of her back?


----------



## happy as a clam

Zillard... Your situation sounds next to horrible 

I remember when you announced you were dating your XW. I thought it was WAY too soon with the wrong person. I still think you are her Plan B. Good Luck--don't waste too much time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tron

happy as a clam said:


> Zillard... Your situation sounds next to horrible
> 
> I remember when you announced you were dating your XW. I thought it was WAY too soon with the wrong person. I still think you are her Plan B. Good Luck--don't waste too much time.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I disagree. My read on his threads from day 1 was that she has always loved him and even may have wanted to stay married to him. She never changed her name after the D. They were married for what...less than 10 years? What woman does that? Unless she felt compelled to maintain that connection, that identity. No Clam...not a plan B.

Z admitted in his previous thread that she has had serious emotional trauma (PTSD) and what is even more clear and more impactful to this relationship now is that she has extremely low self esteem. Mrs. Z needs to spend a good bit more time in IC to figure all that out. When she does, this R is going to take off. Until then, it will be a struggle.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

I skimmed a lot of the thread, and they probably got back together to quickly. There is still a lot of issues to be worked on, and the thing about dating your ex, is it carries the baggage of the last time around to be added onto this new relationship that your trying to establish. If your shouting at each other, your communication skill needs more work. Solving conflict by attacking each other is not healthy, and nothing is gained. In an arguement, each side is more interested in landing blows than getting the issues resolved. After awhile, it is to see who can harm the other person more. 

She still has outbursts, and when she threw her wedding ring, she did it out of impulsiveness, and hoping it wil hurt you. She has anger issues to work on, and needs to learn better coping mechanism. With a healthier communication style, messages will have more clarirty.


----------



## Tron

Another thing...Z has always been good about updates. This is a long silent stretch for him.

Mrs Z found his first thread. It's no stretch that she is still lurking about and this thread is no longer a safe place for him.



Mrs Z, this is for you, if you are still reading,

I always thought that yours was a salvageable M. You simply could not stop tripping over your own feet to do what was necessary. Z seemed to be a pretty progressive sort, so all it would have taken was a little self awareness and commitment. 

It never transpired, and of all the train wrecks around this sad sad place, yours was quite spectacular indeed. 

I have been on TAM for 2 years now, just a couple months less than your ExH, and have read so many sad, painful and tragic stories in the CWI and GTD forums. I have only cried once reading here...when Z described your final IC session together. Your M was so fixable, but it is long gone. You lost everything of any importance IMO. 

Where to go now????

Z has given you an opportunity to forge a new relationship with him. I hope you seize this opportunity and don't half-ass it. 

Simply put, with so much water under the bridge, you are going to have to be even better than that old "Hell Yes!" girl from way back.
But it starts and ends with you. Are you up to the challenge? Is he worth it to you? Mrs Tron was worth it to me.

It hurts that he had a VAR with him whenever he had any interaction with you when you two were breaking apart? Let it go. He was being a papa bear and protecting himself and his little girl from your destructive behavior. That and maybe a little OCD. Just let it go. 

I understand that some of the things he discusses on here is hurtful to you. You are not alone. Mrs. Tron feels the same. We have had some heated discussions about my posts here...and posting in general. While I don't like the fights, I am hopeful that at the very least she is starting to understand my POV. Maybe it helps her to see it on the screen. I never felt that she much cared before. Apparently she does. And even if we disagree, I like the fact that we are talking about it.

I don't think this is the appropriate place to b!tch and moan about your spouse, but it can be a good place to talk fundamental issues and needs to gain perspective and information from others who have travelled the road before you.

Either way, I'd welcome the opportunity to talk to you about it and hope you decide to set up an account and participate.


----------



## Chuck71

Tron said:


> Another thing...Z has always been good about updates. This is a long silent stretch for him.
> 
> Mrs Z found his first thread. It's no stretch that she is still lurking about and this thread is no longer a safe place for him.
> 
> 
> 
> Mrs Z, this is for you, if you are still reading,
> 
> I always thought that yours was a salvageable M. You simply could not stop tripping over your own feet to do what was necessary. Z seemed to be a pretty progressive sort, so all it would have taken was a little self awareness and commitment.
> 
> It never transpired, and of all the train wrecks around this sad sad place, yours was quite spectacular indeed.
> 
> I have been on TAM for 2 years now, just a couple months less than your ExH, and have read so many sad, painful and tragic stories in the CWI and GTD forums. I have only cried once reading here...when Z described your final IC session together. Your M was so fixable, but it is long gone. You lost everything of any importance IMO.
> 
> Where to go now????
> 
> Z has given you an opportunity to forge a new relationship with him. I hope you seize this opportunity and don't half-ass it.
> 
> Simply put, with so much water under the bridge, you are going to have to be even better than that old "Hell Yes!" girl from way back.
> But it starts and ends with you. Are you up to the challenge? Is he worth it to you? Mrs Tron was worth it to me.
> 
> It hurts that he had a VAR with him whenever he had any interaction with you when you two were breaking apart? Let it go. He was being a papa bear and protecting himself and his little girl from your destructive behavior. That and maybe a little OCD. Just let it go.
> 
> I understand that some of the things he discusses on here is hurtful to you. You are not alone. Mrs. Tron feels the same. We have had some heated discussions about my posts here...and posting in general. While I don't like the fights, I am hopeful that at the very least she is starting to understand my POV. Maybe it helps her to see it on the screen. I never felt that she much cared before. Apparently she does. And even if we disagree, I like the fact that we are talking about it.
> 
> I don't think this is the appropriate place to b!tch and moan about your spouse, but it can be a good place to talk fundamental issues and needs to gain perspective and information from others who have travelled the road before you.
> 
> Either way, I'd welcome the opportunity to talk to you about it and hope you decide to set up an account and participate.


GOLD

FVCKING GOLD

PURE FVCKING GOLD

Conrad would be a great presence if he were still on TAM


----------



## Tron

Mrs. Z. 

One final thing,

Why is it that you feel so unworthy of love and value the love that you give so little?


----------



## jr92gp

Tron said:


> Another thing...Z has always been good about updates. This is a long silent stretch for him.
> 
> Mrs Z found his first thread. It's no stretch that she is still lurking about and this thread is no longer a safe place for him.
> 
> 
> 
> Mrs Z, this is for you, if you are still reading,
> 
> I always thought that yours was a salvageable M. You simply could not stop tripping over your own feet to do what was necessary. Z seemed to be a pretty progressive sort, so all it would have taken was a little self awareness and commitment.
> 
> It never transpired, and of all the train wrecks around this sad sad place, yours was quite spectacular indeed.
> 
> I have been on TAM for 2 years now, just a couple months less than your ExH, and have read so many sad, painful and tragic stories in the CWI and GTD forums.* I have only cried once reading here...when Z described your final IC session together.* Your M was so fixable, but it is long gone. You lost everything of any importance IMO.
> 
> Where to go now????
> 
> Z has given you an opportunity to forge a new relationship with him. I hope you seize this opportunity and don't half-ass it.
> 
> Simply put, with so much water under the bridge, you are going to have to be even better than that old "Hell Yes!" girl from way back.
> But it starts and ends with you. Are you up to the challenge? Is he worth it to you? Mrs Tron was worth it to me.
> 
> It hurts that he had a VAR with him whenever he had any interaction with you when you two were breaking apart? Let it go. He was being a papa bear and protecting himself and his little girl from your destructive behavior. That and maybe a little OCD. Just let it go.
> 
> I understand that some of the things he discusses on here is hurtful to you. You are not alone. Mrs. Tron feels the same. We have had some heated discussions about my posts here...and posting in general. While I don't like the fights, I am hopeful that at the very least she is starting to understand my POV. Maybe it helps her to see it on the screen. I never felt that she much cared before. Apparently she does. And even if we disagree, I like the fact that we are talking about it.
> 
> I don't think this is the appropriate place to b!tch and moan about your spouse, but it can be a good place to talk fundamental issues and needs to gain perspective and information from others who have travelled the road before you.
> 
> Either way, I'd welcome the opportunity to talk to you about it and hope you decide to set up an account and participate.


I guess I wasn't the only one.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Tron said:


> I disagree. My read on his threads from day 1 was that she has always loved him and even may have wanted to stay married to him. She never changed her name after the D. They were married for what...less than 10 years? What woman does that? Unless she felt compelled to maintain that connection, that identity. No Clam...not a plan B.


Remember, you are only seeing her through Z's eyes and words. 

Many women retain their married name, because it's the same last name as their child(ren)'s.

From 50K, I see a completely different picture, and agree with Happy As A Clam.

Z, don't expect a functional relationship with a dysfunctional person.


----------



## Tron

ThreeStrikes said:


> Z, don't expect a functional relationship with a dysfunctional person.


I'm gonna throw this back at you 3X: "Remember, you are only seeing her through Z's eyes and words."

What do we really know about her? 

Codependent? _Severely_

Chemically dependent? _Alcohol, drugs, perhaps both at one time_

Unhappy? _Definitely was_

Dysfunctional? _I dunno. Looks that way. Maybe she was severely depressed or having a manic episode or something? That is kind of why I'd like to talk to her. _

Staunchly conservative? _Ummm??? Just kidding  _

And if she decided to show up on this thread, who is to say that she would get the royal WW treatment that you find on CWI. She already lost everything. JMO, but it would be pretty pointless to rake her over the coals at this point. This forum is low key anyway. 

Ms. GP never got that treatment, so it isn't a foregone conclusion.


----------



## zillard

I highly value the feedback, questions, and input I receive here. That is why I keep returning. 

No, she will not post here. She doesn't get it. There is far more blame than understanding when it comes to discussions about tam. We can have a mild disagreement and before long she'll tell me to just shut up and post about it. Sarcastically. As a jab. 

Posting things for the world to see is only done by those that need a fan club. 

I disagree and will continue, to an extent. I wish she would post. But I don't see it happening. 

I agree with your assessment, Tron. We sit here waiting for an R that is ready to take off. But it won't happen until she's ready to face herself and what she needs to do to make that happen. 

Repeatedly she tells me that she is here. She is here where she doesn't want to be and that should prove her love. 

My thoughts... her being here is enough to repair her relationship with our daughter. and that is extremely important. 

In that respect she is miles above where she was a year ago. But that is completely separate from her relationship with me. Being here is not enough for me to move past old **** and see her in a different light. For that to happen, she needs to act differently. Why would I see her in a different light in regards to our relationship if she is acting the same as before?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

How long will you continue this way?

Your posts feel less and less optimistic each time. It makes me question how much longer you can do this.

ETA: FWIW I was thrilled when she returned and you guys began to try and reconcile.


----------



## GusPolinski

Time for a NEW "new girlfriend", methinks.


----------



## HobbesTheTiger

Any chance she would move out on her own? That (her living on her own) would help her make or break the situation regarding your reconciliation.

Best wishes


----------



## ThreeStrikes

zillard said:


> I highly value the feedback, questions, and input I receive here. That is why I keep returning.
> 
> No, she will not post here. She doesn't get it. There is far more blame than understanding when it comes to discussions about tam. We can have a mild disagreement and before long she'll tell me to just shut up and post about it. Sarcastically. As a jab.
> 
> Posting things for the world to see is only done by those that need a fan club.
> 
> I disagree and will continue, to an extent. I wish she would post. But I don't see it happening.
> 
> I agree with your assessment, Tron. I sit here waiting for an R that is ready to take off. But it won't happen until she's ready to face herself and what she needs to do to make that happen.
> 
> Repeatedly she tells me that she is here. She is here where she doesn't want to be and that should prove her love.
> 
> My thoughts... her being here is enough to repair her relationship with our daughter. and that is extremely important.
> 
> In that respect she is miles above where she was a year ago. But that is completely separate from her relationship with me. Being here is not enough for me to move past old **** and see her in a different light. For that to happen, she needs to act differently. Why would I see her in a different light in regards to our relationship if she is acting the same as before?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How does this look from 50K? Your relationship with your 'gf', not your daughter's relationship with her mother?

How are *you* doing, Z?

edit: I think that some of us are frustrated, or disappointed, or dissatisfied, with your situation because we know how much better your relationship-life could be right now. 'Cause we've been there, done that. Like they say on ESPN: "C'mon Man!"


----------



## Tron

Z isn't talking about how he and Mrs Z F'd like rabbits for 2 hours last night. 

What naturally gets discussed on the board are the problems. There's likely a lot of good stuff going on too. But the bad weighs heavy and that is what we hear about. It's a fair source of resentment IMO. It happens to be something I hear a lot too from the Mrs.

I know you want her to be more proactive and maybe I am misreading this, but it sounds like she is asking you to lead the way. 

Take the lead. 

Be patient. 

Find a MC. Start there.


----------



## ButtPunch

Mrs. Z is still Mrs. Z and Z wants a new self-improved Mrs. Z. 

I understand completely.


----------



## zillard

Tron is right, good things do and are happening. It hasn't all been doom and gloom. But I don't feel the need to write about the good. 



ButtPunch said:


> Mrs. Z is still Mrs. Z and Z wants a new self-improved Mrs. Z.
> 
> I understand completely.


That would be nice, but I know it's unrealistic. Even if people do change, they can't overnight. Myself included. 

More importantly, I want the relationship to have a new dynamic.

The repeated comment, "I'm here. Isn't that enough?" rubs me the wrong way. I see it as incredibly arrogant. Look, she came back and graced me with her presence, so her work is now done and I'm ungrateful if I'm not swooning.

If the whole situation were reversed, would it be enough for me to simply move in with her and D? 

I think what I dislike the most is when I see patterns from the marriage resurfacing. It seems it's more comfortable for her to pretend we are still married. That is naturally followed by slipping into old roles. They are comfy seats that have been well broken in, and it's hard not to sink into them. But sit too long in them and history will repeat itself. Sometimes it feels like we are once again in that place right before the **** hit the fan. And that's scary. 

It's a new situation for the both of us. Live in girlfriend, xwife, with a kid upstairs. What can I reasonably expect from her, what can she reasonably expect from me? The new situation means our responsibilities change.


----------



## Suspecting2014

zillard said:


> Tron is right, good things do and are happening. It hasn't all been doom and gloom. But I don't feel the need to write about the good.
> 
> 
> 
> That would be nice, but I know it's unrealistic. Even if people do change, they can't overnight. Myself included.
> 
> More importantly, I want the relationship to have a new dynamic.
> 
> The repeated comment, "I'm here. Isn't that enough?" rubs me the wrong way. I see it as incredibly arrogant. Look, she came back and graced me with her presence, so her work is now done and I'm ungrateful if I'm not swooning.
> 
> If the whole situation were reversed, would it be enough for me to simply move in with her and D?
> 
> I think what I dislike the most is when I see patterns from the marriage resurfacing. It seems it's more comfortable for her to pretend we are still married. That is naturally followed by slipping into old roles. They are comfy seats that have been well broken in, and it's hard not to sink into them. But sit too long in them and history will repeat itself. Sometimes it feels like we are once again in that place right before the **** hit the fan. And that's scary.
> 
> It's a new situation for the both of us. Live in girlfriend, xwife, with a kid upstairs. *What can I reasonably expect from her, what can she reasonably expect from me? The new situation means our responsibilities change*.


She would like to erase what happened so she acts like before, like nothing ever changed, while for you, after her affair, everything has changed.

Well, if you are not happy with this new situation remember that R is not a must, is a gift you give her everyday. If one day you change your mind it is OK, she put you in this situation when cheated and walk away.

Clear your mind, and proceed to live the life you want with or without her.


----------



## ButtPunch

zillard said:


> That would be nice, but I know it's unrealistic. Even if people do change, they can't overnight.


Agreed.

But is she putting in effort? 

If she doesn't change, what have you got?


----------



## ButtPunch

Suspecting2014 said:


> She would like to erase what happened so she acts like before, like nothing ever changed, while for you, after her affair, everything has changed.


This hits home for me as well.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Because of your past, it is not like you can start fresh with a clean slate. There is too much history, and habits are hard to break. The changes you want from her could take years or decades, and she wants the old zillard back. There is a power struggle in the relationship, and this stage will most likely determine how the relationship goes. Boundaries are set and compromise will see how far the other is willing to bend towards the other.


----------



## Suspecting2014

zillard

R is not for everyone...


----------



## Tron

zillard said:


> More importantly, I want the relationship to have a new dynamic.


Force the issue.



zillard said:


> The repeated comment, "I'm here. Isn't that enough?" rubs me the wrong way. I see it as incredibly arrogant. Look, she came back and graced me with her presence, so her work is now done and I'm ungrateful if I'm not swooning.


You are absolutely right in feeling this way. It isn't enough just to be there.



zillard said:


> I think what I dislike the most is when I see patterns from the marriage resurfacing. It seems it's more comfortable for her to pretend we are still married. That is naturally followed by slipping into old roles. They are comfy seats that have been well broken in, and it's hard not to sink into them. But sit too long in them and history will repeat itself. Sometimes it feels like we are once again in that place right before the **** hit the fan. And that's scary.


Don't allow it. You are aware now and that's great. 



zillard said:


> It's a new situation for the both of us. Live in girlfriend, xwife, with a kid upstairs. What can I reasonably expect from her, what can she reasonably expect from me? The new situation means our responsibilities change.


It is a new situation. And as GP can attest, R is really really hard. Especially that first year. Without outside help, it can be a real pressure cooker.


----------



## Tron

ButtPunch said:


> Agreed.
> 
> But is she putting in effort?
> 
> If she doesn't change, what have you got?


You benefited from the fact that she went in-patient for 3 months. It forced the issue.

And even still I remember letters from her to you that were hopefully optimistic, but she still didn't "get it" 100%. een with therapy and group every day.



Mr.Fisty said:


> Because of your past, it is not like you can start fresh with a clean slate. There is too much history, and habits are hard to break. The changes you want from her could take years or decades


I do like this Fisty. QFT. 

The changes I made have taken years to take hold. It seems to go in spurts. Still working. Always working. 

Mrs Tron seems to move at a bit slower pace. She isn't a self starter in this area and seems to require additional motivation.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Suspecting2014 said:


> She would like to erase what happened so she acts like before, like nothing ever changed, while for you, after her affair, everything has changed.


Yep. And Z has the additional weight of dating a known cheater.

Not many of us would fix our single buddy up with a known cheater.

It's always going to be in the back of your mind. At least it was for me.


----------



## Chuck71

Z....you know a lot of my back story with UG. I set my boundaries

and am aware what she will have to do....to even get a sit-down.

I am quite unforgiving...but if she can meet my requirements, I can

start to forgive. It's funny how she was the one who blasted 

through The Wall right before my D final. She now faces another 
Wall.

She saw how I handled WC in the end...maybe she thinks I will treat
her as such. We will see......

Few questions....do you Z....think, at this rate......she will ever own her POS 

tendencies and...march forth with you to solve the problems in the M?

Is 50% of XW something you could accept, compared to 100% of someone else?

In a recent post I made, I mentioned the hardest part of my D was 

letting go of all the years...past emotions...past memories. It wasn't losing

her...but at first, I thought it was. Can you see yourself relating to

this any...if things were to go sour with XW?


----------



## Lifescript

Z, 

Her saying "I'm here. Isn't that enough?" Is very troubling. You are absolutely right in feeling how you feel about it. It tells a lot about the level of remorse she feels after what she did. It's a troubling thing ... remembering what they did and how it resurfaces ... But they (the unremorseful/still asleep/ codependent bunch) don't make it easy on the BS. It's their actions or lack of that brings everything back and prevents the relationship from flourishing again. 

I've been where you are now. As you know, I gave my ex a bunch of chances. Once you are aware an wake as you are ... she can't fool you and long term you won't put up with less than what you truly want and deserve. I could have kept going back with her and do the dance over and over again but there came a point where things were clear and right there in front of me. From 50k, it didn't look good. She said she was sorry and said she would do what it needed to be done to repair the marriage. She said lots of things ... didn't do much though. 

In the end it comes down to what 3 strikes said ... you can't have a healthy relationship with unhealthy woman. Unless she is willing to get help (you guys should be going to MC) it won't work. If she's not even reading books you recommend then how can the dynamic change if she's not willing to learn. My ex didn't the same thing. I recommended books and she never read any of them. 

Chuck is right. The hardest thing to let go of is the many years of investment and time together. Add to the equation that she's the mother of your child and is very hard to break away. 

In all this, keep in mind your daughters' best interest. Think back ... is she happier now or before her mom moved back in? 
Then think are you happier now or before. 

It's messed up to see you in this situation after all the progress you made and your life seemed to be going really well. To me you are one of the few who truly got it. I used to read your old thread and think this is where I want to be eventually. 

You are awake now and there's no going back. 

Do you find yourself falling into old patterns/codependent behavior with your gf?

As you know it's very hard to deal with these personalities and little by little it takes a toll. 

Wish you the best Z. R are not for everyone and if you have to break it off as hard as that would be it may be for the best. Sometimes mistakes are made and you still can fix them. Not saying you are there yet but don't trap yourself into thinking there's no getting out of this now.


----------



## ButtPunch

Lifescript said:


> Z,
> 
> I've been where you are now. As you know, I gave my ex a bunch of chances.


Boy that's an understatement


----------



## Chuck71

ButtPunch said:


> Boy that's an understatement


more than a locksmith at a key factory


----------



## tacoma

Just finished this thread Z, haven't read any of your others yet.

I just want to tell you that I believe you've made two major mistakes in attempting R with your Ex.

First, you haven't gotten the truth from her and you know on some level you haven't.
You know there was more going on besides "cuddling" just as everyone who has read your story knows it.

To say this doesn't matter to you may be true (though I doubt it) but it misses the point.
Your wife can still continue on like she has nothing much to be remorseful about.
After all she didn't "do the deed" as far as you know.
You're still her fool.

The severity of her infidelity is covered over by your willingness to accept yet another lie..a huge one at that.

This mistake is enough to destroy any R you attempt and I think you're seeing the beginning of that now.

Your second mistake was allowing her to just move right back in with you without any time just "dating" in order to move past your bad history and build an entirely new dynamic.

She never had to "work" for a relationship with you, she never even had to admit the truth of her infidelity and she gets everything she wants (or thinks she wanted).

She has fallen right back into the old dynamic because it was easy to do and that won't work for you.

I feel for your daughter.


----------



## ButtPunch

tacoma said:


> Just finished this thread Z, haven't read any of your others yet.
> 
> I just want to tell you that I believe you've made two major mistakes in attempting R with your Ex.
> 
> First, you haven't gotten the truth from her and you know on some level you haven't.
> You know there was more going on besides "cuddling" just as everyone who has read your story knows it.
> 
> To say this doesn't matter to you may be true (though I doubt it) but it misses the point.
> Your wife can still continue on like she has nothing much to be remorseful about.
> After all she didn't "do the deed" as far as you know.
> You're still her fool.
> 
> The severity of her infidelity is covered over by your willingness to accept yet another lie..a huge one at that.
> 
> This mistake is enough to destroy any R you attempt and I think you're seeing the beginning of that now.
> 
> Your second mistake was allowing her to just move right back in with you without any time just "dating" in order to move past your bad history and build an entirely new dynamic.
> 
> She never had to "work" for a relationship with you, she never even had to admit the truth of her infidelity and she gets everything she wants (or thinks she wanted).
> 
> She has fallen right back into the old dynamic because it was easy to do and that won't work for you.
> 
> I feel for your daughter.


Tacoma 

Please read the other threads as your analysis from just the one is way off base.


----------



## tacoma

ButtPunch said:


> Tacoma
> 
> Please read the other threads as your analysis from just the one is way off base.


Howso?

In what situation does rug sweeping an infidelity make for a good foundation for R?

In what situation does allowing an unfaithful spouse back into your life/childs life/ home without any attempt to change the dynamic of the previous relationship a good foundation for R?

His wife hasn't changed because he never made change a condition of R.
There were no repercussions for R.

I'll read his past threads, just curious.


----------



## jr92gp

tacoma said:


> Howso?
> 
> In what situation does rug sweeping an infidelity make for a good foundation for R?
> 
> In what situation does allowing an unfaithful spouse back into your life/childs life/ home without any attempt to change the dynamic of the previous relationship a good foundation for R?
> 
> His wife hasn't changed because he never made change a condition of R.
> There were no repercussions for R.
> 
> I'll read his past threads, just curious.


There have been repercussions and I would wager that there was talk and expectations were made clear that change is a prerequisite for R. Regardless, the past is the past. 

Z, are you capable of R with her? Can you provide what she deserves? No answer expected.

Have you considered that her discomfort with TAM is valid? Maybe a move to private section would help?


----------



## zillard

jr92gp said:


> There have been repercussions and I would wager that there was talk and expectations were made clear that change is a prerequisite for R. Regardless, the past is the past.
> 
> Z, are you capable of R with her? Can you provide what she deserves? No answer expected.
> 
> Have you considered that her discomfort with TAM is valid? Maybe a move to private section would help?


Yes, before she moved back in, 1.5 months of nearly nightly phone calls discussing R, expectations of change were made clear and things were agreed upon. Many things were left open though, with the agreement that they would be ironed out in MC. 

I do see her discomfort with TAM as valid... for her. But that is due to her ongoing decision to keep reading it. I have contemplated a move to the private section and discussed that with TAM members that I trust in this situation. 

Can I provide what she deserves? Can you help me understand that question, please? 

Am I capable of R with her? Yes, no doubt in my mind. If she is capable of doing what is necessary for R with me. 

What troubles me is that she doesn't ask me what is necessary. The question itself would show remorse. 

Willingness to address the answer would show commitment.


----------



## the guy

When a marriage becomes so fragile now is not the time to make assumptions but to be direct as possible.

I agree with you....if your old lady wants a healthy relationship she should be asking how.....how to help you heal after such a betrayal.


----------



## zillard

the guy said:


> When a marriage becomes so fragile now is not the time to make assumptions but to be direct as possible.
> 
> I agree with you....if your old lady wants a healthy relationship she should be asking how.....how to help you heal after such a betrayal.


Thank you. I agree.

"What can I do" is miles above "Why can't you just..."


----------



## zillard

zillard said:


> Thank you. I agree.
> 
> "What can I do" is miles above "Why can't you just..."


And yes. I have asked her "What can I do?" 

Her answer - "Don't be a ****"

I have no idea how to fix a problem that vague.


----------



## zillard

ThreeStrikes said:


> Yep. And Z has the additional weight of dating a known cheater.
> 
> Not many of us would fix our single buddy up with a known cheater.
> 
> It's always going to be in the back of your mind. At least it was for me.


3X - I've valued much of your input. I admit I haven't followed your story. Have you attempted R?


----------



## the guy

As betrayed, we never forget. As waywards there is always a consequence....maybe the same consequence.

When you have sh!t behaviors and you want to change you *must* say ":what can I do"....after all it's your bad behavior that generated all this mess.

In my case I know what I have to do to help my old lady with all the abuse i did. Just like Mrs. theguy knows what she has to do with her adultary.

At the end of the day you have to own our sh!t 

At the end of the day you gotta face what you did to someone to #1 help them heal and #2 heal your self.


----------



## zillard

Lifescript said:


> She said she was sorry and said she would do what it needed to be done to repair the marriage. She said lots of things ... didn't do much though.


 saying it is easy. Once you accept the words, why resort to action?



Lifescript said:


> In the end it comes down to what 3 strikes said ... you can't have a healthy relationship with unhealthy woman.


 I understand how sexist this sounds - but show me a healthy woman in a healthy relationship.



Lifescript said:


> Chuck is right. The hardest thing to let go of is the many years of investment and time together. Add to the equation that she's the mother of your child and is very hard to break away.


I let go of that long ago. *When it gets rough* the only thing keeping me from sending her packing is D. 



Lifescript said:


> In all this, keep in mind your daughters' best interest. Think back ... is she happier now or before her mom moved back in?
> Then think are you happier now or before. .


 D is definitely happier now. No question about it. Am I? No. 



Lifescript said:


> Do you find yourself falling into old patterns/codependent behavior with your gf?


 Yes



Lifescript said:


> As you know it's very hard to deal with these personalities and little by little it takes a toll.


 Like plugging a hole in a dike with your finger.


----------



## zillard

zillard said:


> I understand how sexist this sounds - but show me a healthy woman in a healthy relationship.


I know it's possible. What I want to learn is how. What does she do and what does she not do? What does he do and what does he not do?


----------



## Suspecting2014

She must undertad that after her affair nothing is going to be the same ... She should act according to her new situation.

She chose to try and move in with her family because she wanted, of course this is not enough to fix the damage she has done

I believe she would like to act like nothing ever happened


----------



## Mr.Fisty

I think in order for you to be happier, you want her to understand you. Words are meaningless, actions tell us a statement, making patterns tells us a story. All the improvement she has made or promised has fallen short, and she is reverting to her old ways I am guessing. You were working on your issues,but you were not there yet, and now she is weakening your resolve.

If you want to work on this relationship, you need to focus your energy on you more still. You have to set boundaries and you have to re-enforce them. There has to be consequences for her actions. Your out of the honeymoon stage again, and back into the power struggle of it all. You set your boundaries and she set hers. With healthy communication and compromise, you have to learn to bend towards another where you can.

Arguments gets you nowhere, and you have to learn to disengage. When your angry or her, no one is willing to see the other person's side. In healthy communication, each person own their own issues. When your talking to her, you can only state your feelings and thoughts. After you state them, I think you need to ask if she understands what was transmitted. You want her to reflect what was said to see if she understood or not. If she does, then you have created a connection. Like most of us, when we are understood, we feel love. The reverse should be done and see if you understand her. Sometimes, you have to give the other time to think about what was discuss, and come back to it later. Set a time like the next day or two.

Also, if your going down the reconciliation route, ic is a must. Mc doesn't matter to much if you don't have the tools to get past the anger and resentment. Two unhealthy individuals can't work on the issues until you are currently working on the underlying issue. Any negative emotions will act like a wall, and mc will accomplish nothing.


----------



## HobbesTheTiger

Z, have you considered asking her to move out?

Also, what's your plan to address this limbo/purgatory? How long will you be willing to tolerate the status quo?

I'm worried you're sacrificing yourself to somehow protect your daughter from her mom moving out (again). In the long run, this will hurt your daughter...

Are you two in some sort of couples' counselling?

Best wishes


----------



## ThreeStrikes

zillard said:


> I understand how sexist this sounds - but show me a healthy woman in a healthy relationship.


Wow. Just wow!

I'm not talking about it sounding sexist.

I'm talking about your naivete. This is why I, and others, suggested you date many women before settling down again.

You dated Tiger, and who else? Exactly...

Z, you are inexperienced with women. There are so many mature, sexy, unselfish, and independent women out there. You just never took the time to look.

From 50K, looking at your situation from an objective viewpoint (if that's possible), one thing seems glaringly obvious:

You're her meal ticket. I believe she manipulated you into your current situation. Things went sour with Tiger, you were vulnerable, and she pounced. And you with your kind heart and optimism fell hook, line, and sinker.

Man, am I being harsh?


----------



## ThreeStrikes

zillard said:


> 3X - I've valued much of your input. I admit I haven't followed your story. Have you attempted R?


Yep. Twice. Hence my username.

In fact, I do believe "isn't it enough that I'm here" spewed from her cake eating hole, too.

Z, I had envied you because you had what a lot of us guys hoped for. You had your kid, and you moved far away from the cheating ex. Man, you had it!

But then, you invited the vamp back in. Sigh....


----------



## Pluto2

Z, have you specifically told her that saying "'I'm here, isn't that enough" is.... not enough, that instead of showing some vague, unspoken commitment to a new relationship, it indicates, to you, that she is not remorseful, or aware of the pain that was caused by her actions?

Its great that you DD has contact with her mother again. But please don't overlook the possibility that DD will end up with two unhappy, unhealthy parents if the situation is allowed to fester too long.


----------



## ButtPunch

Could it be as simple as that you have unmet needs concerning your exwife. Now that you are "aware" of these you will not be happy with the status quo. 

For instance, My wife isn't very domestic....She wasn't before she cheated and she isn't now. I think it would be unreasonable of me to expect her to change. 

However, my wife tries much harder to be a better Mom, Wife, Person etc. and I see that effort and I appreciate that effort. I do have issues where I think everything is back to the same and I like you cringe at the thought of it. Say my wife is tired from working all day and gets aloof. I trigger hard and I have to recognize it before I get angry. 

I agree with everyone else "I'm here, isn't that enough?" .....IS NOT ENOUGH.


----------



## Chuck71

Z....I could have easily rugswept the problems UG and I were having

and we would still be together. But what state of mind would I be in?

I would have been miserable...and so would UG. I am a firm believer in

sometimes you must let someone go to get them back. Our failure was 

not communicating. That is on UG a lot more than me but.....was I still at the 

top of my game like in 2013? No I wasn't. You need to have a sit down

and strip everything to the bone. And inform her, you can not live like this.

She needs to step up her game or the R will cease to exist. Can there be a 

3rd, 4th, 5th time around? Yes....look at Conrad's situation. But he has

firm boundaries and they are enforced. Z...if Conrad were here, what would

he tell you right now?


----------



## zillard

ThreeStrikes said:


> Wow. Just wow!
> 
> I'm not talking about it sounding sexist.
> 
> Z, you are inexperienced with women. There are so many mature, sexy, unselfish, and independent women out there. You just never took the time to look.


You're right. My comment was off base. I guess what I meant is we all have some level of dysfunction. Even those mature, sexy, unselfish, and independent women. And that's true of men too, myself included. 

But no, I didn't date around much during our time apart.


----------



## zillard

ButtPunch said:


> Could it be as simple as that you have unmet needs concerning your exwife. Now that you are "aware" of these you will not be happy with the status quo.
> 
> For instance, My wife isn't very domestic....She wasn't before she cheated and she isn't now. I think it would be unreasonable of me to expect her to change.
> 
> However, my wife tries much harder to be a better Mom, Wife, Person etc. and I see that effort and I appreciate that effort. I do have issues where I think everything is back to the same and I like you cringe at the thought of it. Say my wife is tired from working all day and gets aloof.* I trigger hard and I have to recognize it before I get angry. *


I need to improve there. Thanks for sharing


----------



## zillard

HobbesTheTiger said:


> Z, have you considered asking her to move out?
> 
> Also, what's your plan to address this limbo/purgatory? How long will you be willing to tolerate the status quo?
> 
> I'm worried you're sacrificing yourself to somehow protect your daughter from her mom moving out (again). In the long run, this will hurt your daughter...
> 
> *Are you two in some sort of couples' counselling?*
> 
> Best wishes


No, we aren't. That is the next step. Long overdue.


----------



## zillard

Pluto2 said:


> Its great that you DD has contact with her mother again. But please don't overlook the possibility that DD will end up with two unhappy, unhealthy parents if the situation is allowed to fester too long.


A very real possibility. I think about it a lot. 

I don't see it as 3x says, letting the vamp back in. There are a lot of impressive and attractive qualities in the woman. When we get along, it's phenomenal. 

When the R gets difficult, and it gets very difficult, D is a big reason I continue versus throwing in the towel. I vent here, and I'm sure it's easy to read that the difficulty is all from her camp, but that's not the case. I do need to always work on myself or I can not expect that from her. 

I know I'm not perfect either. I trigger a lot, more than expected, and many times I handle them poorly. 

If I blame her for all the difficulty, I never fix my part, and fester it will. 

The flip side of that is also 100% true.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

How about ic for each of you first before the mc. The anger and resentment will block out the efforts of mc. Each has their own issues to work on, and before you can tackle the issues as a couple, you need a handle on your own first. Have you learn to disengage before it gets out of hand? Nothing productive can get done when both are angry. You both have walls up.


----------



## Kevinb

zillard said:


> A very real possibility. I think about it a lot.
> 
> I don't see it as 3x says, letting the vamp back in. There are a lot of impressive and attractive qualities in the woman. When we get along, it's phenomenal.
> 
> When the R gets difficult, and it gets very difficult, D is a big reason I continue versus throwing in the towel. I vent here, and I'm sure it's easy to read that the difficulty is all from her camp, but that's not the case. I do need to always work on myself or I can not expect that from her.
> 
> I know I'm not perfect either. I trigger a lot, more than expected, and many times I handle them poorly.
> 
> If I blame her for all the difficulty, I never fix my part, and fester it will.
> 
> The flip side of that is also 100% true.


Mate always focus on those impressive and attractive qualities. No one is perfect and we all know this relationship thing is always going to be work in progress and a hard one a lot of the time. If you love each other truly it will work out

Kev


----------



## Tron

zillard said:


> A very real possibility. I think about it a lot.
> 
> I don't see it as 3x says, letting the vamp back in. There are a lot of impressive and attractive qualities in the woman. When we get along, it's phenomenal.
> 
> When the R gets difficult, and it gets very difficult, D is a big reason I continue versus throwing in the towel. I vent here, and I'm sure it's easy to read that the difficulty is all from her camp, but that's not the case. I do need to always work on myself or I can not expect that from her.
> 
> I know I'm not perfect either. I trigger a lot, more than expected, and many times I handle them poorly.
> 
> If I blame her for all the difficulty, I never fix my part, and fester it will.
> 
> The flip side of that is also 100% true.


How many times can I like this?

Conrad would be proud.

She isn't going to like this, but take some of that money you were considering using to help her move her stuff and earmark it for some counseling. Work on what is really important.


----------



## warlock07

When you say "Old patterns resurfacing", what are they ?


----------



## Tron

What I am hearing is that your triggering and you two are not dealing with it well. 

Are you being a "Nice Guy" and stuffing it or are you communicating with her what is happening and what she needs to do to help?


----------



## Ol'lady Z

I have so much to say. I have no real place to start. My introduction has kind of already been made.

1. I love being back with my family. By family I mean Z and D. I really don't have a whole lot of other family. Just last night I was welcomed home from work with hugs and kisses and a "all I want for Christmas is my two girls" comment from Z. 

2. It gets confusing when I'm told all is well IRL, but I read the complete opposite here. Mixed messages are a real b!tch. 

3. As for the affair, I never slept with the "other man" nor did I leave Z for that person. That was in fact the longest dry spell I've had ever. 

4. Coming here, living in his city,with his people is wildly uncomfortable for me. I do it because I love him, but more importantly, I love our daughter. So it's worth it. 

5. Posting here is wildly uncomfortable. I'm a very private person. During our D, only a handful of my friends knew it was happening. That was intentional. I don't share more than I have to. My therapist knew everything that was going on and that was enough for me. Here I know that the entire internet knows what's going on, and honestly that makes me wildly uncomfortable. 

6. I've noticed a pattern with Z's posts. They only occur under certain circumstances. 

7. The message that re-started our relationship was not some kind of underhanded sneaky move to regain my "meal-ticket". I'm a grown woman. I can provide for myself. I've done it before and I can do it again. That email was sent with no expectations. I truly felt awful about what had happened, and I wanted to say so. That came from a true, real, genuine place and I don't regret sending it. I meant every single word, and I honestly didn't even expect an answer. This whole situation is the absolute last thing I ever thought would happen.

I know that I've been portrayed in a certain way, and that's unfortunate. I'm not some horrible succubus that is just looking to use up a man and move on. I was with Z since I was a teenager. Had a child with him. Stayed with him through thick and thin over many years. 

Our relationship has been full of dysfunction. We aren't the type of couple that you write self-help books about, but then, what couple is? I f-ed up. Big. He f-ed up. Big. We're both to blame. And we're both responsible for fixing it. 

I'm willing to try. I might fail. That scares the sh!t out of me. But it's reality. He might fail too. That also scares the sh!t out of me. This whole situation is scary as faaaaak. But I'm here. And I'm trying. Even though it's terrifying.


----------



## HobbesTheTiger

Welcome!  I'm very glad that you decided to post, I think it's a very brave and courageous step that shows a lot of commitment to Z, your daughter and your healing, and it shows a lot of remorse and inner strength!

There might be some hostile comments from some people, but please, don't be deterred from them and try to ignore them as much as possible, and keep the focus on constructive posts/replies.

I hope that the communication between the two of you will improve. From the posts of both of you I got the feeling that some of your current problems could have been prevented or solved by improved communication on both sides. Counselling might help - Z has mentioned that the next step for the two of you might be couples' counselling. What are your thoughts on that?

May I ask which books or links have you read thus far to help you understand and work on yourself, Z and your whole situation?

Best wishes


----------



## HobbesTheTiger

P.S.: Also, if Z would prefer you to start another thread for yourself, I recommend you start it in this subforum "Reconciliation". 

Also, if you will feel too attacked on this site or if you two will come to a decision that it's better for each of you to be on different sites, I strongly recommend you post here - survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?fid=13 - in here, you can choose to post a thread with a "stop" sign on it, which means that only other (former) wayward spouses can reply to you, so you'll be safe from vitriol of betrayed spouses. Former wayward spouses there are very kind and helpful.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Ol'lady Z said:


> I have so much to say. I have no real place to start. My introduction has kind of already been made.
> 
> 1. I love being back with my family. By family I mean Z and D. I really don't have a whole lot of other family. Just last night I was welcomed home from work with hugs and kisses and a "all I want for Christmas is my two girls" comment from Z.
> 
> 2. It gets confusing when I'm told all is well IRL, but I read the complete opposite here. Mixed messages are a real b!tch.
> 
> 3. As for the affair, I never slept with the "other man" nor did I leave Z for that person. That was in fact the longest dry spell I've had ever.
> 
> 4. Coming here, living in his city,with his people is wildly uncomfortable for me. I do it because I love him, but more importantly, I love our daughter. So it's worth it.
> 
> 5. Posting here is wildly uncomfortable. I'm a very private person. During our D, only a handful of my friends knew it was happening. That was intentional. I don't share more than I have to. My therapist knew everything that was going on and that was enough for me. Here I know that the entire internet knows what's going on, and honestly that makes me wildly uncomfortable.
> 
> 6. I've noticed a pattern with Z's posts. They only occur under certain circumstances.
> 
> 7. The message that re-started our relationship was not some kind of underhanded sneaky move to regain my "meal-ticket". I'm a grown woman. I can provide for myself. I've done it before and I can do it again. That email was sent with no expectations. I truly felt awful about what had happened, and I wanted to say so. That came from a true, real, genuine place and I don't regret sending it. I meant every single word, and I honestly didn't even expect an answer. This whole situation is the absolute last thing I ever thought would happen.
> 
> I know that I've been portrayed in a certain way, and that's unfortunate. I'm not some horrible succubus that is just looking to use up a man and move on. I was with Z since I was a teenager. Had a child with him. Stayed with him through thick and thin over many years.
> 
> Our relationship has been full of dysfunction. We aren't the type of couple that you write self-help books about, but then, what couple is? I f-ed up. Big. He f-ed up. Big. We're both to blame. And we're both responsible for fixing it.
> 
> I'm willing to try. I might fail. That scares the sh!t out of me. But it's reality. He might fail too. That also scares the sh!t out of me. This whole situation is scary as faaaaak. But I'm here. And I'm trying. Even though it's terrifying.



No one is 100 percent bad, or good. Just fluctuating people with varying degrees of disfunction. We all have our own issues to deal with, and in that way, your just like everyone else. I do believe that you have your good qualities, because you are loved. You two should go to individual counseling first. Do more things to help you bond. Try something new together. The more bonded and connected you feel, the more you will be willing to work on each of your issues, and compromise in your relationship. Seek not to argue, and learn to disengage when tempers start flaring. Each of you have to own your own emotions, and stop expecting the other to feel what you are feeling. But each of you can validate that you understand, and if you don't, try and explain it to the other. If you need the time to ponder what was said, take the time. This won't happen over night, and this has to become a habit, so have patience.


----------



## jr92gp

Ol'lady Z said:


> I have so much to say....


Welcome to TAM. This is a big step for you to take.

Your husband's threads on here have helped me immensely, and I surmise that they have helped many others as well.

So it seems communication is lacking somewhat. What do you intend to do about that? I'd start by looking at the circumstances that prompt Z to post here.


----------



## farsidejunky

Welcome to TAM, OLZ. I am glad you took a chance to post here. 

You will find great advice, vitriol, and everything in between here. I think you know this which also speaks to the chance you took in posting here.

The only thing I see from your post that really stands out is the word comfort. While we all appreciate comfort, true growth requires that we sacrifice our comfort to grow and become better. A lot of Z's posts seem to indicate that he wants to see growth from you, which is why I find your multiple posts regarding comfort interesting.

Give it some thought.


----------



## 06Daddio08

Do yourselves a huge favor. Go find an unbiased third party (MC) and handle your personal life / issues with them.

This place will hinder your marital recovery.


----------



## Tron

06Daddio08 said:


> This place will hinder your marital recovery.


Not always the case Daddio.


----------



## just got it 55

Ol'lady Z said:


> I have so much to say. I have no real place to start. My introduction has kind of already been made.
> 
> 1. I love being back with my family. By family I mean Z and D. I really don't have a whole lot of other family. Just last night I was welcomed home from work with hugs and kisses and a "all I want for Christmas is my two girls" comment from Z.
> 
> 2. It gets confusing when I'm told all is well IRL, but I read the complete opposite here. Mixed messages are a real b!tch.
> 
> 3. As for the affair, I never slept with the "other man" nor did I leave Z for that person. That was in fact the longest dry spell I've had ever.
> 
> 4. Coming here, living in his city,with his people is wildly uncomfortable for me. I do it because I love him, but more importantly, I love our daughter. So it's worth it.
> 
> 5. Posting here is wildly uncomfortable. I'm a very private person. During our D, only a handful of my friends knew it was happening. That was intentional. I don't share more than I have to. My therapist knew everything that was going on and that was enough for me. Here I know that the entire internet knows what's going on, and honestly that makes me wildly uncomfortable.
> 
> 6. I've noticed a pattern with Z's posts. They only occur under certain circumstances.
> 
> 7. The message that re-started our relationship was not some kind of underhanded sneaky move to regain my "meal-ticket". I'm a grown woman. I can provide for myself. I've done it before and I can do it again. That email was sent with no expectations. I truly felt awful about what had happened, and I wanted to say so. That came from a true, real, genuine place and I don't regret sending it. I meant every single word, and I honestly didn't even expect an answer. This whole situation is the absolute last thing I ever thought would happen.
> 
> I know that I've been portrayed in a certain way, and that's unfortunate. I'm not some horrible succubus that is just looking to use up a man and move on. I was with Z since I was a teenager. Had a child with him. Stayed with him through thick and thin over many years.
> 
> Our relationship has been full of dysfunction. We aren't the type of couple that you write self-help books about, but then, what couple is? I f-ed up. Big. He f-ed up. Big. We're both to blame. And we're both responsible for fixing it.
> 
> I'm willing to try. I might fail. That scares the sh!t out of me. But it's reality. He might fail too. That also scares the sh!t out of me. This whole situation is scary as faaaaak. But I'm here. And I'm trying. Even though it's terrifying.


OL ZEE always interesting to hear the "Other Side " of the story.

Post honestly and help can be found.

Be proud of yourself to find the courage to come here.

If other thread participants really want to help,they will call you on your and ZEES perceived BULL$HIT.

Understand perception is not to be taken personally.

I will not support others posting hateful unhelpful things

Be prepared for posters questioning

*3. "As for the affair, I never slept with the "other man" nor did I leave Z for that person. That was in fact the longest dry spell I've had ever.*" 

55


----------



## DayOne

Tron said:


> Not always the case Daddio.



:iagree:


My advice, Mrs Z. Learn quickly to spot the TAM 'burn victims' and pay attention to the ones who actually have useful, HELPFUL, responses.

It's great that you're here. I hope, one day, to get my waw to sign up (instead of lurk...).

Be prepared to commit to total transparency and honesty with yourself. It's the best way to get the most success with this resource (TAM).


----------



## always_hopefull

Ol'lady Z said:


> I know that *I've been portrayed in a certain way, and that's unfortunate*. I'm not some horrible succubus that is just looking to use up a man and move on. I was with Z since I was a teenager. Had a child with him. Stayed with him through thick and thin over many years.
> 
> *Our relationship has been full of dysfunction*. We aren't the type of couple that you write self-help books about, but then, what couple is? I f-ed up. Big. *He f-ed up. Big.* * We're both to blame. And we're both responsible for fixing it. *



First welcome, second you'll need to prepare yourself for some pretty harsh comments. This is a very pro marriage website and they don't go easy on cheaters, regardless "if they slept with the other man". 

I myself see several issues that appear to me that your minimizing what you did. Firstly you may not have been "physical" with te other guy, but you cheated. Have you read "Not Just Friends", by Dr. Shirley Glass? You also say that you've been "portrayed in a certain way", and that's "unfortunate". What exactly do you mean by this statement? Are you just upset that you've been portrayed as a cheater? Or Using him as your "meal ticket"?

My main issue in your post is where you state that your relationship was full of dysfunction and you "both" screwed up. Did Z have an affair too? Because no matter how crappy your marriage was, it doesn't justify an affair, that is 110% on you! No one else, just you. You and only you need to fix the damage from your affair, it's not on Z. Your the only one who needs to prove you've changed. Did you really think that stepping out of your marriage would improve things? Has it worked out yet?

You mentioned when you guys separated, few knew anything. Did they know why? Did they know that you cheated? Was it more you were just trying to hide you had an affair? Do many know you cheated now? Most importantly, do "you" even think you had an affair?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Zillard, have you spoken with your wife's counselor? 

If your wife is a very private person, and the only person she really feels completely comfortable confiding in is her counselor, it might be wise to go with her sometime to one of her therapy appointments. The counselor could help you understand your wife better than any of us could.

And that understanding could surely help you two to build a stronger relationship.


----------



## As'laDain

always_hopefull said:


> First welcome, second you'll need to prepare yourself for some pretty harsh comments. This is a very pro marriage website and they don't go easy on cheaters, regardless "if they slept with the other man".
> 
> *I myself see several issues that appear to me that your minimizing what you did. Firstly you may not have been "physical" with te other guy, but you cheated. Have you read "Not Just Friends", by Dr. Shirley Glass? You also say that you've been "portrayed in a certain way", and that's "unfortunate". What exactly do you mean by this statement? Are you just upset that you've been portrayed as a cheater? Or Using him as your "meal ticket"?*
> 
> *My main issue in your post is where you state that your relationship was full of dysfunction and you "both" screwed up. Did Z have an affair too? Because no matter how crappy your marriage was, it doesn't justify an affair, that is 110% on you! No one else, just you. Did you really think that stepping out of your marriage would improve things? Has it worked out yet?
> 
> You mentioned when you guys separated, few knew anything. Did they know why? Did they know that you cheated? Was it more you were just trying to hide you had an affair? Do many know you cheated now? Most importantly, do "you" even think you had an affair?*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



lady z, this is a good example of burn victim speak. you don't have to answer if you don't want to.

if you would like to address issues in your marriage(well, reconciliation) like insecurity, confidence, honesty, transparency, etc. then we can certainly help. you dont have to prove yourself worthy of what Z has already decided your worthy of.

please stay. we dont have enough couples on TAM.


----------



## always_hopefull

zillard said:


> But we've made it work. Now lately she'll come home, drink too much, and lash out me. Angrily and very ugly, but *conveniently doesn't remember saying nasty things to me*. I have to explain in the morning why I'm upset. We had a small argument about the neighbors dogs barking too much. *I stepped out onto the back patio and she locked me out, flipped me off, and went to bed. Leaving me to sleep on the patio all night.* After I finally got her to wake up by ringing the door bell 1000 times and waking my daughter first, she then lets me in and "doesn't remember".
> 
> Now she's made friends at work and they go out for a few drinks after work once a week, which is fine. She needs social interaction - everyone does. But one night after texting me to say she's going to hang with the crew, *she doesn't come home. Misses her daughter's award ceremony at school. Gets home at noon and says she fell asleep watching movies with friends*. No other info. I pry. Turns out *she slept at a male coworkers house. I pry more. Turns out her girlfriend went home - but she didn't. *
> 
> This was the night after she locked me out. I felt hurt, betrayed, lied to, and disappointed. I told her I was expecting at least some sort of gesture that she was sorry for locking me out. Being the nice guy I am I had bought her flowers to show that I can overcome the anger I felt. But what do I get - her overnight at some guy's house. *She then tells me she thinks she got married too young. But there is no affair and I have nothing to worry about. I ask if she still even wants me around. "I don't know."*
> 
> 
> Things are good for almost two weeks. Love and intimacy, cuddling, favors for each other. Then I get another text that *she's going out for a couple beers after work. No other info* offered. I text ok and go to bed. *Once again I wake up alone*. She comes in and acts like nothing happened. I tell her I'm upset, most of all because she isn't being honest and she broke her promise less than 2 weeks into fixing things. *She says she didn't think it was a big deal.
> *
> This has me worried that at the very least she is having an EA with this guy. So I look up her phone bill. Never have I done this before and I never would have absent her breaking her promise, and so soon. In the last month there have been 50 texts to me, 100 to her girlfriend, and 400 to this guy. *She sees me snooping into her phone bill as a violation of trust but still won't admit she did anything wrong.
> *
> I look at the records in more depth. She texts him before work, during work, after work, from home after I go to bed, and on weekends. She was texting him the whole day we were having a heart to heart about our marriage.
> 
> I ask if she still loves me. She says yes. I ask if she wants to split. She says "I don't know". I ask how she could disrespect our marriage by breaking her promise. "I don't know". I ask her what she would do if the situation were reversed. "I don't know".
> 
> When I asked her to marry me she said "Hell yes!". I asked her if she was still "Hell Yes" wife. "I don't know". I tell her that our marriage won't work if she is not 100% committed. "I don't know". She says she needs time to figure that out. For me, it's a no brainer. I love this woman. Madly and deeply. *But I want my "Hell Yeah" wife back. *


This is a snippet from Z's opening post about your affair. I have some questions...

1) Why did you not just go home with your gf that night? You obviously didn't have to stay there. Also you even stayed out a second night. I'll be honest with you, I wouldn't believe the Pope if he told me nothing happened under these circumstances.

2) Have you gotten help for your alcohol issues? Because if your drinking to the point of forgetting you locked your husband out of the house, you need some help.

3) Would you think it was "no big deal" if Z spent the night out with another woman? I'll tell you I thought it was a huge deal when my EXH would come home at 4 am after spending the evening with another woman.

4) Do you still think it was a violation of your privacy, Z snooping on your phone, when you were acting like that?

*5) Most importantly.....does Z have his "Hell Yeah"!! wife back?*


----------



## just got it 55

always_hopefull said:


> This is a snippet from Z's opening post about your affair. I have some questions...
> 
> 1) Why did you not just go home with your gf that night? You obviously didn't have to stay there. Also you even stayed out a second night. I'll be honest with you, I wouldn't believe the Pope if he told me nothing happened under these circumstances.
> 
> 2) Have you gotten help for your alcohol issues? Because if your drinking to the point of forgetting you locked your husband out of the house, you need some help.
> 
> 3) Would you think it was "no big deal" if Z spent the night out with another woman? I'll tell you I thought it was a huge deal when my EXH would come home at 4 am after spending the evening with another woman.
> 
> 4) Do you still think it was a violation of your privacy, Z snooping on your phone, when you were acting like that?
> 
> *5) Most importantly.....does Z have his "Hell Yeah"!! wife back?*


Assuming ZEE'S post is truthful these are fair questions OL ZEE

AH I don't know your situation but I don't see this as a burn victim speak.

Maybe a truth seeker ?

OL ZEE Please stay and give your perspective.

55


----------



## farsidejunky

As'laDain said:


> lady z, this is a good example of burn victim speak. you don't have to answer if you don't want to.
> 
> if you would like to address issues in your marriage(well, reconciliation) like insecurity, confidence, honesty, transparency, etc. then we can certainly help. you dont have to prove yourself worthy of what Z has already decided your worthy of.
> 
> please stay. we dont have enough couples on TAM.


While it may be burn victim speak, they are absolutely legitimate questions and speak to the mindset that she may have.

Successful reconciliation requires honesty. These questions are trying to see if she is being honest with herself which is where honesty begins.


----------



## As'laDain

just got it 55 said:


> Assuming ZEE'S post is truthful these are fair questions OL ZEE
> 
> AH I don't know your situation but I don't see this as a burn victim speak.
> 
> Maybe a truth seeker ?
> 
> OL ZEE Please stay and give your perspective.
> 
> 55


i dont see much victim speak in these questions either. but i the first post littered with victim speak. 

the one after though, i agree. truth seeker. 
fair questions. exept the first... if your going to ask a question, refining the answer by stating that you wouldnt believe the pope... 

well, that doesnt look like truth seeking.


----------



## always_hopefull

Ol'LadyZ

I have posted some pretty pointed questions to you. They are not meant to be harsh, but to provide introspection to you and possibly help you understand what Z is going through. 

You mentioned "It gets confusing when I'm told all is well IRL, but I read the complete opposite here. Mixed messages are a real b!tch." This often referred to as the roller coaster of emotions. Some BS's often try to convince themselves it's all good. You know, "fake it till you make it", but now you have seen true insight into the damage your affair has caused Z. This kind of damage takes years, and I mean years, of heavy lifting to make things better. By heavy lifting, I mean you doing the heavy lifting. 

No matter how much you think Z had wronged you in the past, the only one who can fix this damage is you. Only you can stop his pain and rebuild his trust. I used to despise by ex because he told me once, "it was too much work and not worth the effort" to rebuild what only he destroyed. But now I see it was truthful, lacking tact, but truthful. Are you ready to do this? Are you ready to put aside all your "issues" with your M and work on your affair? Because truthfully, I believe, one cannot work on repairing the relationship until you have dealt with your affair, and to me it seems like you really haven't dug so deep that you feel like your insides are on your outside. I'm not meaning you need to do it here, but Z needs to see that vulnerability, for without your vulnerability, Z cannot be vulnerable with you and fully trust you and without trust and vulnerability, there can be no true R.

I myself am pro R, in some situations, especially this one. You both love each other, but I'm uncertain if you actually know how much of this burden for a successful R is solely on you?

(please note: all these are my personal beliefs, from my own experiences, please don't waste Z and Mrs.Z's time by tearing apart what is needed for a successful R. Many thanks)


----------



## always_hopefull

As'laDain said:


> lady z, this is a good example of burn victim speak. you don't have to answer if you don't want to.
> 
> if you would like to address issues in your marriage(well, reconciliation) like insecurity, confidence, honesty, transparency, etc. then we can certainly help. you dont have to prove yourself worthy of what Z has already decided your worthy of.
> 
> please stay. we dont have enough couples on TAM.



Sorry to let you down, but I'm not here to "burn victims". Maybe you should read my other posts in this thread, especially the last one, before you judge me. You just may be guilty of this....Just an FYI.


----------



## farsidejunky

always_hopefull said:


> Sorry to let you down, but I'm not here to "burn victims". Maybe you should read my other posts in this thread, especially the last one, before you judge me. You just may be guilty of this....Just an FYI.


Burn is not a verb in this instance; it's an adjective.


----------



## As'laDain

always_hopefull said:


> Sorry to let you down, but I'm not here to "burn victims". Maybe you should read my other posts in this thread, especially the last one, before you judge me. You just may be guilty of this....Just an FYI.


i believe you want to help get the issues between them resolved. i dont think your here to burn anyone. this is what caught me

*"Did you really think that stepping out of your marriage would improve things? Has it worked out yet?"* 
and
*"My main issue in your post is where you state that your relationship was full of dysfunction and you "both" screwed up. Did Z have an affair too? Because no matter how crappy your marriage was, it doesn't justify an affair, that is 110% on you!"* you have to assume that she is trying to minimize her affair in order for her statement to be a problem. so lets ask...

lady z, was your affair equal to his offenses?

i apologize if i rushed judgement AH.


----------



## Tron

Welcome OLZ! :smthumbup: 

I'm really excited that you finally decided to join us. 

I hope you don't mind, I will probably be throwing a lot of questions at you.



Ol'lady Z said:


> 1. I love being back with my family. By family I mean Z and D. I really don't have a whole lot of other family. Just last night I was welcomed home from work with hugs and kisses and a "all I want for Christmas is my two girls" comment from Z.


How did that feel? Because it sounds pretty great to me.

Did you reciprocate?



Ol'lady Z said:


> 2. It gets confusing when I'm told all is well IRL, but I read the complete opposite here. Mixed messages are a real b!tch.


Hah! My W says the same on occasion. 

But what it means IRL is that he isn't 100% comfortable sharing those harsh thoughts and feelings with you in the moment. Why do you suppose that is?

I believe that is partly him and partly you. This probably goes way back to before the D too. You guys definitely need to work on this.



Ol'lady Z said:


> 3. As for the affair, I never slept with the "other man" nor did I leave Z for that person. That was in fact the longest dry spell I've had ever.


Hmmm...affairs can be many things. "Longest dry spell I've had ever" is pretty vague. 

Be that as it may, what is important for you and your relationship with Z is what does he think? Does he believe you? How does he feel about it? And is the story you are telling him consistent? 

I've been in your shoes. I would recommend you not be vague with Z. Up front and honest every time. Especially about the OM. Don't try to hide the truth. He may ask you the same question 50different ways; your job is to always answer as honestly as possible. If you don't know, then say that but don't ever use that as an excuse. He will be looking for consistency, transparency and openness. That's what is required to build trust. 



Ol'lady Z said:


> 4. Coming here, living in his city,with his people is wildly uncomfortable for me. I do it because I love him, but more importantly, I love our daughter. So it's worth it.


My home is where my family is.

Why are you so uncomfortable? What is it about family that creates so much anxiety for you?

And FSJ is correct. Growth actually comes from working through the discomfort. This is an opportunity for you. Grab it by the horns and push through it. 



Ol'lady Z said:


> 5. Posting here is wildly uncomfortable. I'm a very private person. During our D, only a handful of my friends knew it was happening. That was intentional. I don't share more than I have to. My therapist knew everything that was going on and that was enough for me. Here I know that the entire internet knows what's going on, and honestly that makes me wildly uncomfortable. .


Hah! I also live with a very "private" person. For her, "private" means her and her 3 best friends. But where I am concerned, to her it means me and...our MC. That doesn't really work well for me. TAM is a place where I can vent. It is a source of anxiety for her and she gets very defensive...and protective.

You probably already know this, but "privacy" within the confines of your relationship with Z is not going to result in a successful reconciliation. It means you are hiding things from him and that won't build trust.



Ol'lady Z said:


> 6. I've noticed a pattern with Z's posts. They only occur under certain circumstances. .


Tell us about that.



Ol'lady Z said:


> 7. The message that re-started our relationship was not some kind of underhanded sneaky move to regain my "meal-ticket". I'm a grown woman. I can provide for myself. I've done it before and I can do it again. That email was sent with no expectations. I truly felt awful about what had happened, and I wanted to say so. That came from a true, real, genuine place and I don't regret sending it. I meant every single word, and I honestly didn't even expect an answer. This whole situation is the absolute last thing I ever thought would happen..


Z believes you and that is what matters. For the record, I believe you too.



Ol'lady Z said:


> I know that I've been portrayed in a certain way, and that's unfortunate. I'm not some horrible succubus that is just looking to use up a man and move on. I was with Z since I was a teenager. Had a child with him. Stayed with him through thick and thin over many years.


Ignore the haters.



Ol'lady Z said:


> Our relationship has been full of dysfunction. We aren't the type of couple that you write self-help books about, but then, what couple is? I f-ed up. Big. He f-ed up. Big. We're both to blame. And we're both responsible for fixing it.


OK. Are you making it a priority to clean up your side of the street? You need to. Z is watching. 



Ol'lady Z said:


> I'm willing to try. I might fail. That scares the sh!t out of me. But it's reality. He might fail too. That also scares the sh!t out of me. This whole situation is scary as faaaaak. But I'm here. And I'm trying. Even though it's terrifying.


OLZ, What is all this fear about? And where does it come from?

No offense but, "willing to try" with the possibility of failure is totally understandable, but it isn't going to result in a successful reconciliation. 

What Z needs is 100% commitment. And that would also require another level of vulnerability from you. I'll wager that gives you a sick feeling in your stomach.


----------



## just got it 55

As'laDain said:


> i dont see much victim speak in these questions either. but i the first post littered with victim speak.
> 
> the one after though, i agree. truth seeker.
> fair questions. exept the first... if your going to ask a question, refining the answer by stating that you wouldnt believe the pope...
> 
> well, that doesnt look like truth seeking.


Fair enough AD

55


----------



## TheGoodGuy

OLZ, first, I'm proud of you for taking this difficult step of posting here. I have followed Z's story from the beginning and it was somewhat similar to my own (although I'm not in R with my Ex, that ship has sailed). 

Yes, there are "burn victims" here as others have said, myself included. It can be difficult to to speak objectively and not project our hurt onto other WWs. Please be patient with us.

Z's threads have been a very there therapeutic for me. I hope you will stick around and help us all learn from your experience. This seems public for you (the entire internet is watching!) but it's really not. We're all anonymous strangers.


----------



## Suspecting2014

3. As for the affair, I never slept with the "other man" nor did I leave Z for that person. That was in fact the longest dry spell I've had ever

LadyZ,

Not slept with OM doesnt mean other sexual contac hasnt happened with him.

Dont minimize what happened, IMO working in the A is the only way you both can heal.

Take away pride, the " I was/am rigth ", " this will never happen again ", etc. And start working on you.

Being there is not enough after what u did! U are not under the same ligth anymore


----------



## Chuck71

Mrs. Z.....coming onto the board after reading all which

has been said, took a great deal of courage. I commend you

for that. It will be a long progress. But it always begins with....

one step. You will get A-1 advice here. I am pulling for you and Z.


----------



## ButtPunch

I have been with Z since day one. I am rooting for the both of you. I will not share my opinion because I know I am biased. Mrs. Z reminds me of my WS. So I'll watch from afar or at least try to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

ButtPunch said:


> I have been with Z since day one. I am rooting for the both of you. I will not share my opinion because I know I am biased. Mrs. Z reminds me of my WS. So I'll watch from afar or at least try to.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'd love to see Mrs. GP post here. Two years ago GP..you, me, Z

Group and CG all were on the coaster. Providence.....


----------



## Tron

Suspecting2014 said:


> 3. As for the affair, I never slept with the "other man" nor did I leave Z for that person. That was in fact the longest dry spell I've had ever
> 
> LadyZ,
> 
> Not slept with OM doesnt mean other sexual contac hasnt happened with him.
> 
> Dont minimize what happened, IMO working in the A is the only way you both can heal.
> 
> Take away pride, the " I was/am rigth ", " this will never happen again ", etc. And start working on you.
> 
> Being there is not enough after what u did! U are not under the same ligth anymore


I really like "LadyZ". She is certainly no "Ol Lady". So this fits her better.

You know Suspecting...as a WW it is natural to want to correct something that you know in your mind is clearly false, especially when it is something so hurtful. Perhaps it is pride. Perhaps it is trying to minimize. Not look so bad. 

But what I have found is that there is the truth. And then there is acknowledgement of my spouse's perception of that truth and the pain that accompanies it. I have to deal honestly and honorably with both and that includes trying as hard as I can not to be defensive.

You broke his heart that day. That is what you need to focus on.

So keep that in mind LadyZ. It is a good start to being better than that old "hell yeah" girl.


----------



## Tron

Chuck71 said:


> I'd love to see Mrs. GP post here. Two years ago GP..you, me, Z


Don't go too far away GP. You and the Ms provide the badly needed comic relief.


----------



## Suspecting2014

QUOTE=Tron;11296546]


Suspecting2014 said:


> 3. As for the affair, I never slept with the "other man" nor did I leave Z for that person. That was in fact the longest dry spell I've had ever
> 
> LadyZ,
> 
> Not slept with OM doesnt mean other sexual contac hasnt happened with him.
> 
> Dont minimize what happened, IMO working in the A is the only way you both can heal.
> 
> Take away pride, the " I was/am rigth ", " this will never happen again ", etc. And start working on you.
> 
> Being there is not enough after what u did! U are not under the same ligth anymore


I really like "LadyZ". She is certainly no "Ol Lady". So this fits her better.

You know Suspecting...as a WW it is natural to want to correct something that you know in your mind is clearly false, especially when it is something so hurtful. Perhaps it is pride. Perhaps it is trying to minimize. Not look so bad. 

But what I have found is that there is the truth. And then there is acknowledgement of my spouse's perception of that truth and the pain that accompanies it. I have to deal honestly and honorably with both and that includes trying as hard as I can not to be defensive.

Keep that in mind LadyZ. It is a good start to being better than that old "hell yeah" girl.[/QUOTE]

Totally agree.

The point is that an A make a bad marriage worse and at the same time is an eye opener...

I believe that Z and lady Z want to fix their relation but they need to put the BS aside and see the big picture!

If they play this oportunity rigth a better marriage is to come.

They need tear down all walls and share a common gold.

Lady Z , do you have any resentment to Z about the city u r living? I believe u do , even it is part of your affair out come.

Lady Z , IMO u need to put on your big girl pants put your resentments apart and start working on this oportunity. Stop this childish behavior and stat buiding the marriage you want!

Z, you must help her, she needs to heal too!!


----------



## happy as a clam

Ol'lady Z said:


> Coming here, living in his city, with his people is wildly uncomfortable for me. I do it because *I love him, but more importantly, I love our daughter. *So it's worth it.


OLZ... Glad you chimed in.

But am I the only one who sees this statement as problematic? Especially during an attempt at reconciliation. IMHO, your priority should be your husband and your relationship -- marriage is the glue that holds it all together; kids are the _product and result_ of a happy, healthy marriage and should not be "driving" the decision-machine. (I realize you both are no longer actually married.)

You have stated outright that your love for your daughter is more important than your love for your husband. If I were Z, I might feel a bit slighted by that comment.  Perhaps that's not the way you meant to word it, but subconsciously I think it speaks volumes about your relationship and where Z falls in your list of priorities.


----------



## Chuck71

This board will receive more hits than Pete Rose on meth.

There's a reason for it. We all want to see how it ends.

Most want a R, some want Z to walk

Me.....and I'm not alone....want Z to end up with what is best for him

U2s With or Without You....1987.....I can't comment any better

We only have so many "The Ones" in our life....some never even see

any. Most see one....some see two. Rarely is there any more.

I know from a personal standpoint....Z loves you.....if you think you

can find a replication of that...please try....but Vegas odds wouldn't be 

favorable. I hope in five years you both can look back at the train wreck and think

the wreck was the reason we repaired the train. Full steam ahead!


----------



## always_hopefull

As'laDain said:


> i believe you want to help get the issues between them resolved. i dont think your here to burn anyone. this is what caught me
> 
> *"Did you really think that stepping out of your marriage would improve things? Has it worked out yet?"*
> and
> *"My main issue in your post is where you state that your relationship was full of dysfunction and you "both" screwed up. Did Z have an affair too? Because no matter how crappy your marriage was, it doesn't justify an affair, that is 110% on you!"* you have to assume that she is trying to minimize her affair in order for her statement to be a problem. so lets ask...
> 
> lady z, was your affair equal to his offenses?
> 
> i apologize if i rushed judgement AH.


No apologies needed, it is easy to assume that someone is on the attack when we can only read words and not concern. Especially when I see all the vitriol that is posted. 

I asked these questions because from Lady Z's post it appears she is minimizing her actions and shifting some of the issues in their relationship onto Z. I also asked all these questions because from my experience with infidelity, WS's have a difficult time in accepting the BS's need for answers. Sometimes hearing the same questions asked by strangers will validate their BS's need for answers and their difficulty in accepting answers. 

LadyZ, I do apologize if I came a cross as overly aggressive.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ol'lady Z

I never thought people would be so invested in this. It's a problem that a mazillion couples experience. The amount of concern is weird to me. It will take me some time to sort through the responses and respond in an intelligent direct way. It's like coming into the gym and being blasted with a thousand dodgeballs...it's hard to know where to begin with the dialog. Do you speak your mind, or do you just start throwing sh!t back? 

I don't want to be the jerk that's instinctively throwing the ball at the nearest target. I want to hit each topic head on as well as I can.


----------



## Chuck71

I think the world of Z. He helped me with WC in multiple ways.

He is my brother. And yes, I care. If you can't understand it, that

is your loss, definitely not mine


----------



## Ol'lady Z

I think the world of Z also. More than any of you could ever know. 

I'll still need a minute to articulate myself. I love him more than anyone else in the universe besides our sweet innocent daughter. So my reply toward him will never be impulsive or rapid. There is to much love for me to be impulsive. Any reply will be full of thought and care. Please respect my timing. I'm trying to be thoughtful and careful with my responses. 

In the past, I would have have been rapid and inpatient with my responses. I'm trying to be more thoughtful with my words now. I wasn't always this way. Generally I'm quick to judge and quick to lay down a verdict. I'm trying to grow past that.


----------



## Chuck71

I want what is best for Z and I also hope

what is best for you and him. Forever can start tonight.....

They write songs about this schit

I write books about this schit

if you are here for the future, I am glad you are here

We all have demons....damn sure know I do.

You and Zs situation was similar to mine, until I blew it up

I'm in both of your corners......I want to see a win-win


----------



## Chuck71

you were a great wife for many years, that's been said. if you wish to be one

again, it will take steps, on both ends. I know what I want in a wife 

and no matter if UG comes around or not....it will never change.

You and Z climbed that mountain, you can again.

I will never bring up anything in the past, unless you do yourself.

That is how things work when you are on the couch.

Again......I am pulling for a win-win. And I hope to see Ms. GP comment soon.


----------



## Ol'lady Z

I want a win-win too. But i don't live in myths. This life is mine. The deception. The delusion. The fantasy that it's not what I thought it was. 

I wish it was all rainbows, but it's not. Its real life. And it's dingy.that's life. Love is still there, but it's gritty.


----------



## As'laDain

Ol'lady Z said:


> I want a win-win too. But i don't live in myths. This life is mine. The deception. The delusion. The fantasy that it's not what I thought it was.
> 
> I wish it was all rainbows, but it's not. Its real life. And it's dingy.that's life. Love is still there, but it's gritty.


I don't think you can fully grasp how positively I see this post, and I sincerely hope that you and Z will come to understand what I mean by that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

I would like to think I had a great post until...TAM refreshed. UGH

All it said was.......love each other......there are certain things a wife does

that a g/f has no clue of. And he will be the husband you fell in love with.

It takes time.....patience. There is a certain touch a woman can give a man

and he knows he can conquer the world. Can every woman.....no....

only a very certain few, if that many can


----------



## zillard

Ol'lady Z said:


> I want a win-win too. But i don't live in myths. This life is mine. The deception. The delusion. The fantasy that it's not what I thought it was.
> 
> I wish it was all rainbows, but it's not. Its real life. And it's dingy.that's life. Love is still there, but it's gritty.


I get that. And this time, I'm not sorry you feel that way. 

So it goes, mon amour.


----------



## Chuck71

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKp13Q_fwmQ


----------



## zillard

Mr.Fisty said:


> learn to disengage when tempers start flaring. Each of you have to own your own emotions, and stop expecting the other to feel what you are feeling. But each of you can validate that you understand, and if you don't, try and explain it to the other. If you need the time to ponder what was said, take the time.


LazyZ - I've been working on this. I understand and acknowledge that in the past I simply shut you out, for the sake of shutting you out. 

Recently, when I remove myself to the garage or to the office, what Fisty suggested is the reason. Things get heated and I recognize that continuing that evening will do more harm than good, so I step out. It is not to ignore you. It is not to ignore or deny problems that I or we may have. It is to table things once I feel they are unproductive. 

And I will continue to do so. 

I don't see this as blame, I see it as an attempt to be proactive in preventing an argument from going where it really doesn't need to go. Knowing full well that, absent removing myself, I could very likely cause that devolution as much as you could.


----------



## zillard

LZ - I do want to say that you choosing to join and post here was a complete surprise to me. And a welcome one. 

I was very careful not to demand that of you, and I see your choice to do so as a grand gesture of good will, and I appreciate that. 

I know if you continue to post, I will not like many things you post. I welcome that, even though it will be difficult. If I like everything you post I won't believe that you're being honest. If you are forthcoming and open it will be hard to swallow - and many times that will be the chit that I need to hear.


----------



## DayOne

Liking this so far, Mr and Mrs Z. (has a nice ring to it, doesn't it. "_Mr and Mrs Z_" )

Calm, thoughtful dialogue (with a dash of love, i think). Sometimes it's easier to write out how you feel rather than speak it, especially if it's tough or touchy subject. You have more time to think, to absorb what's being said, and reply rationally. All good things. So posting up in here is a great way to learn how to communicate positively with each other. Eventually, because of how you learn to 'talk' here, you'll find it easier to do so face to face.

I wish you both all the best. I'll be following your journey.:smthumbup:


----------



## farsidejunky

OLZ:

This place is a little strange. Yes, it is an anonymous message board on the internet. However, people in general form the strongest bonds when they suffer together. Most people are initially drawn to this place because they are suffering and searching for answers. Once here, you find others suffering in the same way that you yourself may be. This forms very strong bonds. 

Additionally, Z is very well liked here for the way that he navigated his way to 50,000 feet, his attitude, and how he expresses his feelings. His threads are a lesson in how to become detached when detachment is absolutely necessary. 

That is why I, like a great many others, _are_ emotionally invested in the resolution that makes Z the happiest. I was thrilled and fearful for him when you came back into his life. Not only for him, but for your daughter as well. I want to see this work for you guys. 

Keep up the transparency. It is painful at first, kind of like ripping off a band aid. But the healing that comes from transparency remaining in a relationship is amazing.


----------



## Tron

Ol'lady Z said:


> I never thought people would be so invested in this. It's a problem that a mazillion couples experience. The amount of concern is weird to me. It will take me some time to sort through the responses and respond in an intelligent direct way. It's like coming into the gym and being blasted with a thousand dodgeballs...it's hard to know where to begin with the dialog. Do you speak your mind, or do you just start throwing sh!t back?
> 
> I don't want to be the jerk that's instinctively throwing the ball at the nearest target. I want to hit each topic head on as well as I can.


Put your thoughts out there and speak your mind. Try not to edit too much. Sometimes how you say something reveals just as much. Your subconscious at work...IYKWIM 

I liked your bullet points. Works great.


----------



## ButtPunch

I am very invested emotionally into what happens with Z. He and I went thru something very painful together at the same time albeit on the internet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Ol'lady Z said:


> I wish it was all rainbows, but it's not. Its real life. And it's dingy.that's life. Love is still there, but it's gritty.


I was thinking about this when I washed my hands and got a drink this morning. 

It's like a water faucet. 

Hot and cold is ultimately better than a steady stream of lukewarm, although lukewarm often feels more comfortable. 

Too much hot can leave one scolded. Even when it doesn't, the hot will eventually run out. Having been scolded, sticking with cold is safer. And often refreshing. But doing so is limiting. No warmth, and much harder to sanitize. 

No matter how many times one uses a faucet, no matter how familiar, adjustments to both hot and cold are necessary each time.


----------



## jr92gp

Both of you have quite a way with words.


----------



## HobbesTheTiger

Yes, you both have quite a way with words. That's why it would be very beneficial for you two to find a MC who would be impartial in helping you to find an efficient and safe (for both of you) way of communicating.

When do you two plan to set up a MC?


----------



## Chuck71

All I wanna know is....this summer are you and Mrs. Z gonna trek to the 

Great Smokies and do some partying with me. If UG isn't here....someone

else will be!


----------



## warlock07

Ol'lady Z said:


> I want a win-win too. But i don't live in myths. This life is mine. The deception. The delusion. The fantasy that it's not what I thought it was.
> 
> I wish it was all rainbows, but it's not. Its real life. And it's dingy.that's life. Love is still there, but it's gritty.


This will probably run her off but I will never believe for a second that an affair never happened. 

I should probably stop posting..

Zillard, did she read your threads ?


----------



## warlock07

I probably shouldn't have read Zillard's "Going through Divorce" thread


----------



## Pluto2

Ol'Lady Z,

While this is nitpicking, its one of those nits that tends to strike a nerve with many on the board. Could I suggest that you not try to minimize what happened with the OM and just go forward with the understanding that faith in the relationship was broken. Folks here want a reconciliation that ends up with both of you having your needs met, and your DD happy.

And a sympathetic MC would be wonderful step to take. Why is this not a priority?


----------



## Suspecting2014

Ol'Lady Z,


As you are here to R, you dont need to explain the affair to anyone but Z.

Minimize advise given is for R not judge.

Good luck


----------



## Johnconrad

The thing is... when people finally see the light, the "vindication" associated with getting your partner to put on the hair shirt and swallow their pride is far less important than how they treat you going forward.

I can totally see the CWI point of view that full disclosure of affairs and the like is quite important when a couple has a breach of trust and decides to try to make a run at it immediately. All the cards need to be on the table and baby steps moving forward are absolutely necessary.

Yet, these two are actually divorced. OLZ has never cheated on Zillard "Version II". And, Z Version II is far different than the man she took a dump on so long ago.

There is no cookbook for this stuff. If they've found "workable" communication between them, I'm the last guy to pick nits.


----------



## zillard

Johnconrad said:


> The thing is... when people finally see the light, the "vindication" associated with getting your partner to put on the hair shirt and swallow their pride is far less important than how they treat you going forward.
> 
> I can totally see the CWI point of view that full disclosure of affairs and the like is quite important when a couple has a breach of trust and decides to try to make a run at it immediately. All the cards need to be on the table and baby steps moving forward are absolutely necessary.
> 
> Yet, these two are actually divorced. OLZ has never cheated on Zillard "Version II". And, Z Version II is far different than the man she took a dump on so long ago.
> 
> There is no cookbook for this stuff. If they've found "workable" communication between them, I'm the last guy to pick nits.


A few good things in this. Recognizing that this isn't repairing a marriage is one. Ship happened and the result was divorce, among other things. The marriage that once was is over and needs to stay dead. 

I won't say getting back together after divorce is unheard of, but it's usually not what is discussed on TAM. I have a very large family and have witnessed many types of relationships. I have a sister who remarried her XH, and before long was divorced again. IMO, that R should have never been attempted. 

I also have a sister who remarried her XH, after both of them cheated on one other. That R happened a decade after their divorce. I wouldn't say I'm envious of their relationship, but at the moment it seems to be working for them. I once saw her as a very weak individual for getting back together with him. I now see her in a different light and applaud her courage. 

I've also had a brother whose wife got knocked up by a posOM while they were married, and that whole thing has been nothing short of a nightmare. Another brother is still married to his college sweetheart and I think they'll stay together for the long run, even though their son has commented that they haven't acted like a married couple in love for years. 

I've witnessed a brother be single into his 40s with a desire to settle down but with little hope as after 40 years being single he has no idea what to do with a woman for more than a week. 

And then I have my parents who celebrated their 50th a few years ago, but not without their own problems. 

There are many cookbooks. But none of them work for everyone. 

That being said, with the marriage being dead and gone, it is difficult to navigate the R waters when most of the advice available is for still married couples. They often don't have the years apart, the divorce decrees, co-parenting plans, moving back into a home that is no longer a marital joint venture. 

The M is done and this must be a new relationship. All the way around. Due to that, I believe we should see each other as live in BF/GF, not a reunified husband and wife. At this stage. 

I think we should both keep in mind:
Would I do XYZ for a GF/BF?
Would I expect XYZ of a GF/BF?
How would I react if a GF/BF did XYZ? 

This, in order to prevent us from falling into the old relationship which ended poorly. 

YET - the reality is, we do share a child. We do have triggers due to that old relationship, even if we tell ourselves that was with a different person and not the one standing her now. 

Balancing those things well will result in good progress. Neither of us will be perfect; we will both stumble. When we do, I think it's important to go back to the GF/BF questions. It's much easier to put more effort into apologizing, conversing, courting, etc, with a GF/BF than it is with a wife or husband. 

There is a level of expected comfort with a spouse that can easily, negatively affect ones level of motivation.


----------



## Chuck71

sage rationale... much better than Duran Duran's New Moon on Monday


----------



## Suspecting2014

zillard said:


> A few good things in this. Recognizing that this isn't repairing a marriage is one. Ship happened and the result was divorce, among other things. The marriage that once was is over and needs to stay dead.
> 
> I won't say getting back together after divorce is unheard of, but it's usually not what is discussed on TAM. I have a very large family and have witnessed many types of relationships. I have a sister who remarried her XH, and before long was divorced again. IMO, that R should have never been attempted.
> 
> I also have a sister who remarried her XH, after both of them cheated on one other. That R happened a decade after their divorce. I wouldn't say I'm envious of their relationship, but at the moment it seems to be working for them. I once saw her as a very weak individual for getting back together with him. I now see her in a different light and applaud her courage.
> 
> I've also had a brother whose wife got knocked up by a posOM while they were married, and that whole thing has been nothing short of a nightmare. Another brother is still married to his college sweetheart and I think they'll stay together for the long run, even though their son has commented that they haven't acted like a married couple in love for years.
> 
> I've witnessed a brother be single into his 40s with a desire to settle down but with little hope as after 40 years being single he has no idea what to do with a woman for more than a week.
> 
> And then I have my parents who celebrated their 50th a few years ago, but not without their own problems.
> 
> There are many cookbooks. But none of them work for everyone.
> 
> That being said, with the marriage being dead and gone, it is difficult to navigate the R waters when most of the advice available is for still married couples. They often don't have the years apart, the divorce decrees, co-parenting plans, moving back into a home that is no longer a marital joint venture.
> 
> The M is done and this must be a new relationship. All the way around. Due to that, I believe we should see each other as live in BF/GF, not a reunified husband and wife. At this stage.
> 
> I think we should both keep in mind:
> Would I do XYZ for a GF/BF?
> Would I expect XYZ of a GF/BF?
> How would I react if a GF/BF did XYZ?
> 
> This, in order to prevent us from falling into the old relationship which ended poorly.
> 
> YET - the reality is, we do share a child. We do have triggers due to that old relationship, even if we tell ourselves that was with a different person and not the one standing her now.
> 
> Balancing those things well will result in good progress. Neither of us will be perfect; we will both stumble. When we do, I think it's important to go back to the GF/BF questions. It's much easier to put more effort into apologizing, conversing, courting, etc, with a GF/BF than it is with a wife or husband.
> 
> There is a level of expected comfort with a spouse that can easily, negatively affect ones level of motivation.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

A fresh start is a great idea, nevertheless keep the IC, to set you both free of anger and resentment; and try to improve communications skills, to create a new relation, a great one, the one you 3 deserve.


----------



## Ol'lady Z

I want to be happy. I want to make you happy. We used to make each other happy as clams. I want that again. So much. I have dreams about how we used to be. They're so happy, so good. I want that again.


----------



## Suspecting2014

Ol'lady Z said:


> I want to be happy. I want to make you happy. We used to make each other happy as clams. I want that again. So much. I have dreams about how we used to be. They're so happy, so good. I want that again.


And I know you deserve it!!!!! as Z does, and your D most of all.


Ask your self what are you willing to do to get there, then ask Z what does he needs. The trick to make it woork is ask everyday not just this time. 

Get rid the anger and resentment, make to each other a trust loan taht you will pay by your actions from now on.

Keep the gold, take the pride out of your way and be vulnerable to eachother, this is the only way.

Before letting the resentment taints every action of your spouse, stop and use the trusth loan. Without any kind of anger or acusating tone tell what you feel in that moment and let the other person explain the real motive. You will be amaized how the resentment plays trick on your mind.

This is not just for Lady, is for Z as well.


----------



## zillard

Suspecting2014 said:


> And I know you deserve it!!!!! as Z does, and your D most of all.
> 
> 
> Ask your self what are you willing to do to get there, then ask Z what does he needs. The trick to make it woork is ask everyday not just this time.
> 
> Get rid the anger and resentment, make to each other a trust loan taht you will pay by your actions from now on.
> 
> Keep the gold, take the pride out of your way and be vulnerable to eachother, this is the only way.
> 
> Before letting the resentment taints every action of your spouse, stop and use the trusth loan. Without any kind of anger or acusating tone tell what you feel in that moment and let the other person explain the real motive. You will be amaized how the resentment plays trick on your mind.
> 
> This is not just for Lady, is for Z as well.


Excellent timing. We were just talking about this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DayOne

zillard said:


> Excellent timing. We were just talking about this.


There you go! Talking. What it's all about. Definitely following your thread (again) and liking what I'm seeing. waw and I are in a similar situation, so it's to great watch another couple start over. For the better.


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## Ol'lady Z

Suspecting, Tron, Chuck, thank you for being so respectful and level-headed. I appreciate that so much.

I'm here because I made a huge mistake. I messed up in a big way. Z knows the details. I prefer to not share them here. I was looking for closeness when I felt alone. That never resulted in your typical physical affair stuff, and maybe that's why it's so hard to work through. Perhaps it would be easier to work through if it was a purely physical affair. I wanted closeness. I wanted attention. I got it. Kindof. It was still empty. It wasn't anything to write home about. I didn't leave Z for the other guy. I left Z because I felt empty. Unloved. Objects don't make me feel love. Attention makes me feel loved. 

We bought a house. A car. All the things to fill a stupidly large home. That didn't make me feel love. I wanted attention. When that attention went to video games and DVR recordings, I felt less and less as a person. It's an easy way to deal with the day, but it's not the easiest way to deal with a wife.


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## Ol'lady Z

Being vulnerable scares me. All my life vulnerability=victim. If you aren't vulnerable, you're tougher. You can't get hurt. Show the vulnerability and people can hurt you. Thats where the discomfort stuff comes from also. Put up a steel front and nobody can hurt you. When you have that steely front up, nobody can penetrate it. It works for the moment, but it's absolute garbage in the long run. I'm just now realizing that. I try to work around it, but old habits die hard. I'm trying to work through it, but it's not an overnight transformation.


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## DayOne

Mrs Z. First off, thank you for your honesty, openness, bravery. Coming to TAM and revealing yourself is not an easy thing. You should rightfully feel proud of yourself for taking this step. 

My waw could definitely identify with:


> That didn't make me feel love. I wanted attention. When that attention went to video games and DVR recordings, I felt less and less as a person. I wanted closeness. I wanted attention.


And we would both identify with using 'shields' to protect yourself. Problem with shields is that they can also trap you inside of them. 

Just saying this in the hopes that you can see that you're not alone in these feelings. Many couples have hit that wall. Fortunately it appears that you two have managed to catch it just in time. From the outside looking in, and the posts you both made in the last couple of days, I see hope. And love.

Keep being honest, open and transparent with each other. It's a great start.


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## Suspecting2014

Ol'lady Z said:


> Being vulnerable scares me. All my life vulnerability=victim. If you aren't vulnerable, you're tougher. You can't get hurt.* Show the vulnerability and people can hurt you.* Thats where the discomfort stuff comes from also. Put up a steel front and nobody can hurt you. When you have that steely front up, nobody can penetrate it. It works for the moment, but it's absolute garbage in the long run. I'm just now realizing that. I try to work around it, but *old habits die hard. I'm trying to work through it, but it's not an overnight transformation*.



It is not just show but be vulnerable, 

I agree that being vulnerable there is a chance that you can get hurt, but it is the only truth way to be reached and fullfil the attention you need and deserve.


I belive that an overnight transformation could be done, the thing, as you pointed out is to feel confortable about it... thats why it is a 24 for 7 job in the begining and requires to remove the ald "I am rigth", "he is wrong", etc. so you can have a real bare sould comunication of what you need at everymoment dont speculating for hidden motives or acummulating frustrations. In a few words an efective real time both way comunication.

I belive you can do it, just need time to feel rigth doing it but after taht in not time this will be the only way you two will be able to comunicated to eachother.


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## Mr.Fisty

Ol'lady Z said:


> Being vulnerable scares me. All my life vulnerability=victim. If you aren't vulnerable, you're tougher. You can't get hurt. Show the vulnerability and people can hurt you. Thats where the discomfort stuff comes from also. Put up a steel front and nobody can hurt you. When you have that steely front up, nobody can penetrate it. It works for the moment, but it's absolute garbage in the long run. I'm just now realizing that. I try to work around it, but old habits die hard. I'm trying to work through it, but it's not an overnight transformation.



That is because attachment can lead to suffering, and there are risks and rewards involved. If your indifferent towards someone, they have less of an affect on you, compare to someone your intimate with. So your walls blocks out the good and as well as the bad. Your connection to Zillard can only go so far, and since the bond was not that strong, it allowed a higher chance of another man come in when your relationship was on a lull. Also the walls we build also keeps the sh1t of our past inside those walls. Whatever happened in your past is still affecting you to this day. You can't see pass your past, and it emotionally stunted you as an adult. It was not hard for another man to get a closer orbit to you since Zillard's orbit was not that close to begin with. So whatever situation happened to allow the affair, Zillard was emotionally pushed farther out.


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## Ol'lady Z

I have no doubt that I'm emotionally stunted. I thought for years that I was above that. I had to be the "adult in charge" since age nine, but I know other things suffered because of it. On one hand, I can take care of people like a typical Jewish Gramma, but on the other hand, I don't know how to care for people beyond feeding them lavishly and giving them half-hearted advice. 

On one hand, I'm an old soul. But on the other hand I'm a 31 year old woman that never had a chance to be a kid, so maybe I'm acting out? By age 9 I was raising a toddler. I don't know how to be a kid. I don't relate. I think when I got the chance to be a "real adult" with a "real adult job" I lost my sh!t.

Mom was married 4 times. 2 times to the same guy. Gramma was married 7 times. Marriage was never a goal for me. Until Z asked me to marry him. It wasn't important till that day. I never expected it, but I was never in my life happier to say yes. He turned my life expectations on their head and I was stoked to say yes. I regret nothing there.

I used to think that I didn't need those dumb self-help books. I actually told a very close friend that I didn't need no stupid books. Now I want to read all of them. I want to fix this. I want this so bad.


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## Suspecting2014

Ol'lady Z said:


> Suspecting, Tron, Chuck, thank you for being so respectful and level-headed. I appreciate that so much.
> 
> I'm here because I made a huge mistake. I messed up in a big way. *Z knows the details*. *I prefer to not share them here*. I was looking for closeness when I felt alone. That never resulted in your typical physical affair stuff, and maybe that's why it's so hard to work through. *Perhaps it would be easier to work through if it was a purely physical affair*. I wanted closeness. I wanted attention. I got it. Kindof. It was still empty. It wasn't anything to write home about. I didn't leave Z for the other guy. I left Z because I felt empty. Unloved. Objects don't make me feel love. Attention makes me feel loved.
> 
> We bought a house. A car. All the things to fill a stupidly large home. That didn't make me feel love. I wanted attention. When that attention went to video games and DVR recordings, I felt less and less as a person. It's an easy way to deal with the day, but it's not the easiest way to deal with a wife.




You dont need to share any detail here, Z is the only one that must listen to them. You only need to tell him the whole truth and nothing but the truth!

Regard to the affair, as you can read at TAM, EA mixed with PA is one of the biggest chalenge a marriage could face. You must consider that what you got from OM was the attention that you needed, taht doest mean that and any phisical contact with him wasnt very painfull and emasculating to Z, as we, men, are and feel in different way about physical contact.

The big part about tearing down the walls and letting Z reach you is being vulnerable about the affair, as it was a slap in the face for Z and destroyed his world. And I belive it is the most scary part for you...

You both need to consider that fear could be hidden under resentment / pride /entitlement /justification, and that it is a protection mechanisms we all have when our brain is trying to cope the impact of our own actions.

I am not religious so my words may not make sense if you are (depending on your religion) but IMO fear is the opposite of faith, and you both need to have faith in each other that when the walls are down you are not going to hurt each other no more so you may be able to let them down until the day they will be gone.

Lady Z, keep posting and dont worry about the people that may last you, try to learn from them as they have experience the pain that Z has and can give you a very good idea of what Z is/was feeling and what can you do about it.

One last thought, you two need to be HUMBLE and own what you have done to each other, remember any of us can make a mistake any time.

You are not perfect, you are not supposed to be, but what you are supposed to be is perfect together!

Best wishes for everyone, merry christmas and happy new year.


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## Mr.Fisty

Ol'lady Z said:


> I have no doubt that I'm emotionally stunted. I thought for years that I was above that. I had to be the "adult in charge" since age nine, but I know other things suffered because of it. On one hand, I can take care of people like a typical Jewish Gramma, but on the other hand, I don't know how to care for people beyond feeding them lavishly and giving them half-hearted advice.
> 
> On one hand, I'm an old soul. But on the other hand I'm a 31 year old woman that never had a chance to be a kid, so maybe I'm acting out? By age 9 I was raising a toddler. I don't know how to be a kid. I don't relate. I think when I got the chance to be a "real adult" with a "real adult job" I lost my sh!t.
> 
> Mom was married 4 times. 2 times to the same guy. Gramma was married 7 times. Marriage was never a goal for me. Until Z asked me to marry him. It wasn't important till that day. I never expected it, but I was never in my life happier to say yes. He turned my life expectations on their head and I was stoked to say yes. I regret nothing there.
> 
> I used to think that I didn't need those dumb self-help books. I actually told a very close friend that I didn't need no stupid books. Now I want to read all of them. I want to fix this. I want this so bad.



Sometimes a neutral party can give us insight into ourselves. We are actually good at decieving us. That is why a good therapist will act like a mirror to reflect us and give us insight into our behavior, and underlying issues. You did not have proper authority figures growing up, so you never felt a safe haven to express yourself. As a child, you did not have the freedom to be a child, and the people coming in and out of your life never gave you structure or stability. You did not learn how to form connections because you did not have an example. So you learned to be emotionally guarded to protect yourself, because if you did not, you would have cracked long ago. So this became your protective mechanism.


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## Ol'lady Z

I am not religious so my words may not make sense if you are (depending on your religion) but IMO fear is the opposite of faith, and you both need to have faith in each other that when the walls are down you are not going to hurt each other no more so you may be able to let them down until the day they will be gone.

I'm not religious either. At all. I get what you're saying. 

"What is this but my reflection, who am I to judge and strike you down?"

I love the man. With every fiber of my being. I never thought this would be easy. I thought it would be the hardest thing I've ever done. And I was right. But I think it's worth it.


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## Suspecting2014

Ol'lady Z said:


> I am not religious so my words may not make sense if you are (depending on your religion) but IMO fear is the opposite of faith, and you both need to have faith in each other that when the walls are down you are not going to hurt each other no more so you may be able to let them down until the day they will be gone.
> 
> I'm not religious either. At all. I get what you're saying.
> 
> "What is this but my reflection, who am I to judge and strike you down?"
> 
> I love the man. With every fiber of my being. I never thought this would be easy. I thought it would be the hardest thing I've ever done. And I was right. But I think it's worth it.


:smthumbup:

I am sure you can achieve a great marriage,

Keep posting and venting if need it.

PS, check Mrs Mathias threads, is a very different situation but she changed her self big time to save her marriage. I believe we all can learn one thing or two from her experience.


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## soulpotato

Ol'lady Z said:


> I want to be happy. I want to make you happy. We used to make each other happy as clams. I want that again. So much. I have dreams about how we used to be. They're so happy, so good. I want that again.


This nearly made me cry. I am rooting for you and Z as well, and I hope that you will both be able to be happy together again.


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## Ol'lady Z

Opening up to a neutral party is scary. It took a pending divorce for me to open up to a therapist at all. And the two that I dealt with both suggested that I reconnect with Z. My friends that knew about the situation suggested the same. 

We were meant to be together, but dammmm it's hard sometimes.


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## Mr.Fisty

I'll be honest. It would probably take years to unravel the knots and twists of your past. It is like going backwards, and untying each knot without a shortcut. Your going to have to deal with each memory of your past that caused you pain, and learn to feel the pain that you should of gone through. You will have to learn to express those emotions to let them go free. I hope your seeing a psychologist to help you unravel those past memories. Then you have to retrain yourself in the process. But gaining insight and knowing you need help is a big step.

I just read the update. I am not a professional, but your therapist did not help much. You first have to learn to deal with yourself, before you can connect with Zed. You are the starting point, and a good therapist would focus on you. The marriage and everything else can come later, because you can't healthily deal with those problems until you can learn the healthy tools to deal with yourself and your emotions. Some of those marital issues will fix themselves out, once you, yourself, is in a healthy state. Some of the communication issues will be gone, due to your walls being pulled down.


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## just got it 55

Ol'lady Z said:


> I have no doubt that I'm emotionally stunted. I thought for years that I was above that. I had to be the "adult in charge" since age nine, but I know other things suffered because of it. On one hand, I can take care of people like a typical Jewish Gramma, but on the other hand, I don't know how to care for people beyond feeding them lavishly and giving them half-hearted advice.
> 
> On one hand, I'm an old soul. But on the other hand I'm a 31 year old woman that never had a chance to be a kid, so maybe I'm acting out? By age 9 I was raising a toddler. I don't know how to be a kid. I don't relate. I think when I got the chance to be a "real adult" with a "real adult job" I lost my sh!t.
> 
> Mom was married 4 times. 2 times to the same guy. Gramma was married 7 times. Marriage was never a goal for me. Until Z asked me to marry him. It wasn't important till that day. I never expected it, but I was never in my life happier to say yes. He turned my life expectations on their head and I was stoked to say yes. I regret nothing there.
> 
> I used to think that I didn't need those dumb self-help books. I actually told a very close friend that I didn't need no stupid books. *Now I want to read all of them. I want to fix this. I want this so bad.*


OL ZEE If these words are not merely lip service (and I believe they are NOT)well....you can expect the change/growth you seek

Wanting it is 99.9% the rest is execution. 

It's up to ZEE to do his part.More than anything is your baby girl's well being.Keeping that in mind you can never go wrong

She will be watching both of you. 

We have all witnessed ZEE'S growth and progress

He really got his sh!t together some backward steps but in general he was aware of his missteps and made his corrections

He enforced his "reasonable boundaries" and held firm to his beliefs.His recognition of what feels right as apposed to what is right for him and his baby girl got him to where he is today

You both have many years to get it right.Some never do but some also never give up in the quest.

That would be my message Never Never give up.

55


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## ButtPunch

zillard said:


> The M is done and this must be a new relationship. All the way around. Due to that, I believe we should see each other as live in BF/GF, not a reunified husband and wife. At this stage.


Z

I believe this to be a mistake that I made when I started my R. I understand that symbolically the marriage is over and a new one must form but she is still the same person. You aren't nor ever will be like you were when you first met. 

Your wife isn't going to change overnight. She will do things that make you question everything. Do not set the bar so high that she cannot get there. 

Zee I know you know what you want. Help OLZ learn what that is thru communication and marriage counseling. My wife like your ex had neglectful parents and had to raise three younger brothers. OLZ needs to get down to the bottom of her FOO issues. 

I know that you are a new and improved Zillard. The codependent fixer is history but be patient with your wife. She will make mistakes. She has to learn who this new Zillard is and you need to let her.


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## DayOne

To be fair, they'll BOTH make mistakes. I'm (supposedly) the new D1, and I know I f it up. A lot. But that's going to happen. I accept that, so does waw. And versa vice. It's HOW you BOTH deal with those mistakes that matters. If anything that's HOW you both grow stronger, and hopefully so does the relationship.


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## zillard

Ol'lady Z said:


> If you aren't vulnerable, you're tougher. You can't get hurt.


I understand that it is very difficult to see this differently. Wear body armor and you can't get shot. It makes sense, right? However, it's hard to wrap your arms around someone wearing armor (and vice versa). 

When wearing armor, it feels more natural to pick up a rifle than it does to lay on the grass, listen to the leaves and smell the roses. 

Until the armor comes off everything looks like war. 



Ol'lady Z said:


> Put up a steel front and nobody can hurt you.


 Nor connect 



Ol'lady Z said:


> I'm a 31 year old woman that never had a chance to be a kid, so maybe I'm acting out?


One of the books I have has a detailed breakdown of different stages of rebellion that most people go through, even into adulthood and relationships. I found it very interesting and could see how it applied to me as well. 



Ol'lady Z said:


> I used to think that I didn't need those dumb self-help books. I actually told a very close friend that I didn't need no stupid books. Now I want to read all of them. I want to fix this. I want this so bad.


Yeah, I felt that way too for a long time. Love languages and love banks & deposits sound kooky as hell. And if two people need kooky books to know how to love each other, then they probably shouldn't be together. I'm better than that. I do not need a "relationship for dummies" book because I'm certainly no dummy. 

Right? Wrong. In many ways, I am a dummy. 



Ol'lady Z said:


> Objects don't make me feel love. Attention makes me feel loved.
> 
> We bought a house. A car. All the things to fill a stupidly large home. That didn't make me feel love. I wanted attention. When that attention went to video games and DVR recordings, I felt less and less as a person.


This sounds like something straight out of the 5 Love Languages.


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## Tron

zillard said:


> This sounds like something straight out of the 5 Love Languages.


Maybe you mentioned it in one of your old threads, but recently Chuck told me you were a physical touch and quality time person. I can relate. 

If Lady Z values the same then things may not be so bad (or difficult) after all. Sounds almost like a match made in heaven.


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## Tron

As for Vulnerability, that is a topic worthy of some discussion. You two seem to understand that it is a problem.

I sent a link to Brene Brown's Ted Talk about vulnerability to GP last Winter (definitely worthy of a google search). 

Before I actually watched that Ted talk, this was something I intuitively knew was a huge issue in my M, I just hadn't ever been able to articulate it. I could feel it. I knew what it felt like with the barriers up and knew what it felt like to be together without them there at all (those moments had been few and far between BTW). 

And I can tell you it makes all the difference in the World. 

Makes life worth living...and worth loving 

But Lady Z, as you say, also very scary. Always wondering what will happen when you place your heart in someone else hands. Especially knowing that you will both make mistakes, hurt the other now and again. 

A tremendous risk indeed.

And will they be a good caretaker of that gift? 

So, I ask you, do you think that Z can be that caretaker for you?

Because unfortunately, circumstances dictate that it starts with you.


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## Mr.Fisty

I want you to get better Miss Zed, and it is true that you blocked out some of the new pain in your life, but you have not escape the old ones. They still rule your life, and they still have control. You manage to wall away some of the new pain, but the old pains that caused you to erect those walls still remain, and they are still inside of you, dictating your life. They are the reason why you erected those walls, and they control your behavior to this day by keeping Zed at a certain emotional distance. You have to let go of the old pain. You have to learn to forgive your parents, but it does not mean you have to form a relationship with them. It was unfair to place that type of responsibilities on a child, and you never learn how to trust people correctly. I think trust issues is one of the underlying factors to your wall. People that your suppose to trust have let you down, and if you do not trust them, then they can't hurt you, or let you down. I am guessing here, but I think that your afraid to trust Zed, because he might let you down, and that break of trust will cause you pain. I think that you will have to learn that people from time to time will let us down, but people are forever fluctuating and they can also live up to the trust you place in them. But if they stumble, you have to learn to forgive.

If you think about it, trust and being vulnerable go hand in hand. You may believe you trust Zed, but if you fully trusted him, wouldn't you be able to be vulnerable to him. Food for thought. I am not sure if this a lot to take in, but it couldn't hurt to take time to ponder this.


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## Johnconrad

Ol'lady Z said:


> Being vulnerable scares me. All my life vulnerability=victim. If you aren't vulnerable, you're tougher. You can't get hurt. Show the vulnerability and people can hurt you. Thats where the discomfort stuff comes from also. Put up a steel front and nobody can hurt you. When you have that steely front up, nobody can penetrate it. It works for the moment, but it's absolute garbage in the long run. I'm just now realizing that. I try to work around it, but old habits die hard. I'm trying to work through it, but it's not an overnight transformation.


It helps to understand where you've been and to take note of your possible emotional motives.

For people who have abusive pasts, those who "should have loved them" failed. In a big way. That failure leaves deep wounds that likely never "truly" heal in the same way as those who had loving parents. This makes relationships as adults doubly difficult. And, vulnerability is usually the tripwire for fear. So, it becomes tempting... almost alarmingly - to hurt the other person before they hurt you. And, the offshoot of this is to hurt yourself to hurt them.

Many emotional and physical affairs are the result of just this. The partner with a history of abuse simply doesn't believe they should have good things. So, they self-sabotage. It becomes self-fulfilling and the destruction of the relationship results.

If you can take note of these temptations and self-regulate them, it's possible - albeit difficult - to have a mature adult relationship.

A sweet child in the mix makes it absolutely necessary to take note of these tendencies and overcome self. Suffice it to say, overcoming self is the ultimate challenge in life.

It's where the rewards are.


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## Tron

I'm not so sure that one is an absolute pre-requisite for the other unless you make it so.

Isn't being vulnerable possible if you trust yourself enough to know that you will be ok whether the relationship fails or succeeds?


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## Johnconrad

zillard said:


> I understand that it is very difficult to see this differently. Wear body armor and you can't get shot. It makes sense, right? However, it's hard to wrap your arms around someone wearing armor (and vice versa).
> 
> When wearing armor, it feels more natural to pick up a rifle than it does to lay on the grass, listen to the leaves and smell the roses.
> 
> Until the armor comes off everything looks like war.
> 
> Nor connect
> 
> 
> 
> One of the books I have has a detailed breakdown of different stages of rebellion that most people go through, even into adulthood and relationships. I found it very interesting and could see how it applied to me as well.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I felt that way too for a long time. Love languages and love banks & deposits sound kooky as hell. And if two people need kooky books to know how to love each other, then they probably shouldn't be together. I'm better than that. I do not need a "relationship for dummies" book because I'm certainly no dummy.
> 
> Right? Wrong. In many ways, I am a dummy.
> 
> 
> 
> This sounds like something straight out of the 5 Love Languages.


In some ways, we're all dummies when it comes to relationships. We just need to accept that.

Fear leads down many unproductive paths.

And, we truly don't know where the fear comes from - until and unless we truly examine ourselves.

The problem is almost never where you think it is.


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## Johnconrad

Tron said:


> I'm not so sure that one is an absolute pre-requisite for the other unless you make it so.
> 
> Isn't being vulnerable possible if you trust yourself enough to know that you will be ok whether the relationship fails or succeeds?


But, you have to love yourself first.

Truly love yourself.


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## Johnconrad

Ol'lady Z said:


> Opening up to a neutral party is scary. It took a pending divorce for me to open up to a therapist at all. And the two that I dealt with both suggested that I reconnect with Z. My friends that knew about the situation suggested the same.
> 
> We were meant to be together, but dammmm it's hard sometimes.


Is there anything worth having that isn't difficult?


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## As'laDain

Z and LadyZ, do you two ever do anything exciting and adventurous together?

i know you guys have been working through emotional issues, but do you have fun together too?


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## Mr.Fisty

I think that the more we tend to trust, the more vulnerable we are willing to be. The closer someone is to me, the more they know about my flaws, issues, and the way I am feeling. I can have a deeper conversation with my best friend, compare to a casual friend. There is more of a trust factor there. I trust more, therefore I can share more intimate details with.

As for Ms. Zed, I do believe that she trusts him to a certain extent, but when conflict arises, she will put up her walls, and she goes into battle mode. I think this is where she will lash out in order to not feel pain. You simply mask it with anger. It is only a guess, and only Zed or Ms. Zed can confirm. Instead of expressing her emotions and stating to Zed whatever is going on at the moment, how she is feeling, she will either go on the offensive or defensive positions. I am going to guess again, and say she is often on the offensive. Again, this stems from her childhood where she did not feel safe to express her emotions. She probably cope with everything by bottling things up and she will explode here and there. Zed, if your reading this, if you are ever critical of her, does she lash out at you? Ms. Zed, if your reading this, if he does criticize you, does it cause you pain, like your not good enough? Reason why I am asking, is I think you have low esteem. I am going to stop here for now.


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## zillard

Mr.Fisty said:


> I think that the more we tend to trust, the more vulnerable we are willing to be. The closer someone is to me, the more they know about my flaws, issues, and the way I am feeling. I can have a deeper conversation with my best friend, compare to a casual friend. There is more of a trust factor there. I trust more, therefore I can share more intimate details with.
> 
> As for Ms. Zed, I do believe that she trusts him to a certain extent, but when conflict arises, she will put up her walls, and she goes into battle mode. I think this is where she will lash out in order to not feel pain. You simply mask it with anger. It is only a guess, and only Zed or Ms. Zed can confirm. Instead of expressing her emotions and stating to Zed whatever is going on at the moment, how she is feeling, she will either go on the offensive or defensive positions. I am going to guess again, and say she is often on the offensive. Again, this stems from her childhood where she did not feel safe to express her emotions. She probably cope with everything by bottling things up and she will explode here and there. Zed, if your reading this, if you are ever critical of her, does she lash out at you? Ms. Zed, if your reading this, if he does criticize you, does it cause you pain, like your not good enough? Reason why I am asking, is I think you have low esteem. I am going to stop here for now.


This is what it looks like from my perspective, yes. 

It is not uncommon for a critique to be met with an obvious jab, then eventually result in a "why do you hate me so much" or "nothing is ever enough for you". 

Do I expect her to be perfect? Absolutely not. I'm not either. That means it's inevitable that I will do something worthy of a critique. 

And no, it's not OK for me to respond to a critique with a jab either, which has happened.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farsidejunky

The only way past this is to embrace that the anger comes from fear or hurt, and trust each other enough to communicate it that way. 

It is more accurate and so much better received that way.


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## Chuck71

100,000 hits by 1-1-15?


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## Ol'lady Z

I react to criticism in personal relationships by throwing up walls. Most definitely. Its a fault. I own it. Talking with Z is hard. He has his own walls. Between his and mine, we have some inpenatrable fortresses going on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ol'lady Z

Chuck, I hate the idea that our relationship (or anything in my life) is so much of a trainwreck that it needs a bazillion views. That is the opposite of mhy im here
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ol'lady Z

Z, you do want me to respond perfectly. No arguement. When I dont I certainly hear about it. Im human. I fu*k up. You do too. Remember thanksgiving? That was cute.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Ol'lady Z said:


> Z, you do want me to respond perfectly. No arguement. When I dont I certainly hear about it. Im human. I fu*k up. You do too. Remember thanksgiving? That was cute.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Perfect example of me being human. And I certainly heard about it too. Which is fine. I needed to hear it. I ****ed up

I didn't want to hear it. It's easier not to. Are you willing to hear it when you do the same? If you know how to handle the holiday triggers better than I know how, I'm all ears and eager to talk to you about it. I do want to learn from you.


----------



## Ol'lady Z

I bottle things up. Then I forget them. Total mind blank. Ptsd in action. Sometimes what gets shut away doesnt come back for over a decade. Then you trigger for some dumb reason and it feels like your life stops. 

That ptsd could be great if the "lost" biys stay lost. vut Sometimes they come back. And sometimes your hisband is irritated because he had to press pause on a recorded show that he thought was important. Then you get resentful.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ol'lady Z

And there are typos. I apologise. Im w orking from my phone. It's not ideal.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ol'lady Z

Z. I know that we had holiday triggers for a long time. M u trigger is not talking to my own parents for a decade. I have them too. Its not just you babe. Im not trying to minimize the triggers you have, but im aldo dealing with things that you wrote off as "no big deal" for almost 8 years. I put on a semi - be liveable happy face, but its an act. And deep down you know it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ol'lady Z

Holy typos. Im fully ashamed of my grammatical and spelling skills. Sorry guys.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## zillard

For the readers, Thanksgiving is a difficult time for me. The last Turkey day I spent with X was the day before she moved out of our marital home. 

She put a lot of effort into cooking the perfect meal for us, including non-dairy alternatives that she knew I would love but didn't ask for. I appreciated that effort. Did I show that well, probably not. My wife was scheduled to move out the next day. Appreciation was the last thing on my mind. 

After that, I had a Thanksgiving without her and I chose not to invite my then GF, Tiger, because I knew it would be a sore day for me and I wanted to prove something to my family without the impression of other influences. And, deep down, because it was rough as hell. 

I know Christmas is hard for my X. She doesn't have that nostalgia of a loving family with unique traditions and in the meantime is surrounded by my family with many. Family that she still views skeptically due to an assumption that they still view her skeptically. 

Are the assumptions accurate? I can't say. Especially not generally. My family is large and I'm sure they all view this differently based on their own experiences and assumptions. That doesn't have to be right or wrong. It just is. 

Some of them will be quicker to forgive or re-evaluate. Some of them never will. That is out of my control, and really not my responsibility. I'm not saying X thinks it is my responsibility, I'm just stating that it isn't. 

And in these posts, again we come back to the DVR issue. FWIW, I haven't had a DVR since we divorced. I couldn't record a show if I wanted to.


----------



## zillard

zillard said:


> For the readers, Thanksgiving is a difficult time for me. The last Turkey day I spent with X was the day before she moved out of our marital home.
> 
> She put a lot of effort into cooking the perfect meal for us, including non-dairy alternatives that she knew I would love but didn't ask for. I appreciated that effort. Did I show that well, probably not. My wife was scheduled to move out the next day. Appreciation was the last thing on my mind.
> 
> After that, I had a Thanksgiving without her and I chose not to invite my then GF, Tiger, because I knew it would be a sore day for me and I wanted to prove something to my family without the impression of other influences. And, deep down, because it was rough as hell.
> 
> I know Christmas is hard for my X. She doesn't have that nostalgia of a loving family with unique traditions and in the meantime is surrounded by my family with many. Family that she still views skeptically due to an assumption that they still view her skeptically.
> 
> Are the assumptions accurate? I can't say. Especially not generally. My family is large and I'm sure they all view this differently based on their own experiences and assumptions. That doesn't have to be right or wrong. It just is.
> 
> Some of them will be quicker to forgive or re-evaluate. Some of them never will. That is out of my control, and really not my responsibility. I'm not saying X thinks it is my responsibility, I'm just stating that it isn't.
> 
> And in these posts, again we come back to the DVR issue. FWIW, I haven't had a DVR since we divorced. I couldn't record a show if I wanted to.


I also haven't played any xbox games since then. Not with T and not with X. I see how that was an escape. I did that. I haven't since. Even though we were apart.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tron

zillard said:


> I also haven't played any xbox games since then. Not with T and not with X. I see how that was an escape. I did that. I haven't since. Even though we were apart.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:smthumbup:

I don't touch them either.


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## Mr.Fisty

I think you both need to change the approach to your communication style. Each of you need to learn to disengage before things escalate. One of you need to find the awareness to stop, be calm, and ask to deal with the situation another time. One of you will need to tell the other that we need a break to reflect. I am guessing you both attack a lot, and great communicators will tell the other how the situation makes them feel. They will start out I feel angry..... or I feel hurt..... and so on. That communication style is emotional communication. The other responds with, So you feel hurt because.... Did I understand this correctly? This is reflective communication. You reflect what was said, and they will acknowledge if you understood or not.

If you use communication as combat, what actually is achieved? You score points, or try to, the other becomes angry and hurt, or you might feel angry and hurt in return. Nothing is really achieved besides building another layer of walls. If you feel as if you can't control your emotions, take a break. Let the tension flow out, release the stress in a healthy way, think and reflect. The goal of communication is understanding, and if we get defensive, our walls are up, how much is really transferred.


----------



## jld

Mr.Fisty said:


> I think you both need to change the approach to your communication style. Each of you need to learn to disengage before things escalate. One of you need to find the awareness to stop, be calm, and ask to deal with the situation another time. One of you will need to tell the other that we need a break to reflect. I am guessing you both attack a lot, and great communicators will tell the other how the situation makes them feel. They will start out I feel angry..... or I feel hurt..... and so on. That communication style is emotional communication. *The other responds with, So you feel hurt because.... Did I understand this correctly? This is reflective communication. You reflect what was said, and they will acknowledge if you understood or not.*


The bolded is also known as active listening. Incredibly effective tool for deepening one's understanding of one's partner, and for de-escalating conflict. Highly recommended.


----------



## Chuck71

Ol'lady Z said:


> Chuck, I hate the idea that our relationship (or anything in my life) is so much of a trainwreck that it needs a bazillion views. That is the opposite of mhy im here
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


it is opening up. not putting up the Wall. WC and I were guilty of that.

You think....ah we're married....we can figure it out tomorrow...next week...

next month. Eventually there are no more tomorrows. 

"You can't buy tomorrows with yesterday's money"

You may think you are the best (fill in anything) but until you

accept a challenge, and risk losing...will you win.


----------



## Johnconrad

Ol'lady Z said:


> Z. I know that we had holiday triggers for a long time. M u trigger is not talking to my own parents for a decade. I have them too. Its not just you babe. Im not trying to minimize the triggers you have, but im aldo dealing with things that you wrote off as "no big deal" for almost 8 years. I put on a semi - be liveable happy face, but its an act. And deep down you know it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You do realize the "be liveable happy face" thing is unsustainable. It means you're sucking it up and simply putting a brick between you. Anything that "comes back" in a fight about who is doing what for who isn't worth doing in the first place.

It's a #3.


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## Chuck71

what did Yoda have as his signature....... Forgive or re-live?


----------



## zillard

Mr.Fisty said:


> I think you both need to change the approach to your communication style. *Each of you need to learn to disengage before things escalate*. One of you need to find the awareness to stop, be calm, and ask to deal with the situation another time. One of you will need to tell the other that *we need a break to reflect*. I am guessing you both attack a lot, and great communicators will tell the other how the situation makes them feel. They will start out I feel angry..... or I feel hurt..... and so on. That communication style is emotional communication. The other responds with, So you feel hurt because.... Did I understand this correctly? This is reflective communication. You reflect what was said, and they will acknowledge if you understood or not.
> 
> If you use communication as combat, what actually is achieved? You score points, or try to, the other becomes angry and hurt, or you might feel angry and hurt in return. Nothing is really achieved besides building another layer of walls. If you feel as if you can't control your emotions, take a break. Let the tension flow out, release the stress in a healthy way, think and reflect. The goal of communication is understanding, and if we get defensive, our walls are up, how much is really transferred.


This is great, Fisty. I accept that. 

And as said before, this is why I often retire to the office or garage. I understand that when I do so, it appears as if I'm running away or ignoring. That is not my goal. The goal is to prevent further escalation. 

And that is not blame. I've learned that if I stay and continue, *I will* escalate. When I get to that point, saying nothing is better, in that moment. Burying it afterward and continuing to be silent the next day is where I need work.


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## zillard

Neither of us like when that happens. And as we get better at our communication skills, it will happen less and less. One day at a time. 

Today, I think we'll have a great time preparing food together for tomorrow. And I'll chop wood for a fire, we'll put the little in bed, we'll wrap presents, set out cookies, and enjoy each others company. I'm excited about it!


----------



## jld

zillard said:


> This is great, Fisty. I accept that.
> 
> And as said before, this is why I often retire to the office or garage. I understand that when I do so, it appears as if I'm running away or ignoring. That is not my goal. The goal is to prevent further escalation.
> 
> And that is not blame. I've learned that if I stay and continue, *I will* escalate. When I get to that point, saying nothing is better, in that moment. Burying it afterward and continuing to be silent the next day is where I need work.


As long as she understands this, I wouldn't think it would cause resentment. You are trying to do what you need to do to be your best for her.


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## zillard

zillard said:


> Burying it afterward and continuing to be silent the next day is where I need work.


I'll go even further. This is ONE of the many areas where I need work. 

In the art world, I'm what we refer to as a WIP (work in progress). I'm no masterpiece. I'm proud of that and hope that never changes. I have no desire to be sprayed with fixative and then be matted and framed. 

I have a large, unfinished tattoo of a spiral for a reason. As I progress, that tattoo will grow. I do think I'm ready for my next session, symbolizing the last few years. I look forward to earning the one after, and hope OLZ is there for it.


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## Kevinb

zillard said:


> I'll go even further. This is ONE of the many areas where I need work.
> 
> In the art world, I'm what we refer to as a WIP (work in progress). I'm no masterpiece. I'm proud of that and hope that never changes. I have no desire to be sprayed with fixative and then be matted and framed.
> 
> I have a large, unfinished tattoo of a spiral for a reason. As I progress, that tattoo will grow. I do think I'm ready for my next session, symbolizing the last few years. I look forward to earning the one after, and hope OLZ is there for it.


Well, if she's not, it would be a damn shame


----------



## Mr.Fisty

zillard said:


> This is great, Fisty. I accept that.
> 
> And as said before, this is why I often retire to the office or garage. I understand that when I do so, it appears as if I'm running away or ignoring. That is not my goal. The goal is to prevent further escalation.
> 
> And that is not blame. I've learned that if I stay and continue, *I will* escalate. When I get to that point, saying nothing is better, in that moment. Burying it afterward and continuing to be silent the next day is where I need work.



Zed, from what I gathered about Ms. Zed, she was probably the unsung hero in her family. She probably was not shown the recognition and praise like she deserved. I believe that is a factor in her low self-esteem, and a factor that she needs the words of reaffirmation that she is appreciated and loved. Could be why words of affirmation is one of her love language, she probably craved that as a child, but due to the disfunction of her parents, they probably did not give her the time and energy. They sound like they are to preoccupied with their own drama to place enough priority in their children. As children, we crave attention from our parents. I think a part of her does not feel like she is good enough, and because of all the things she has done, all the sacrifice she has made, her parents still would not give her the recognition she needed. After so long of feeling not good enough, I am guessing she went through a rebellious phase. I am guessing again, when you disappeared into your video games and dvr, the situation probably reminded her of her parents, where they stop being a participant in her life. She probably did not feel love from you, and I am sure that somewhat triggered her childhood disfunction. So, Ms. Zed seek some kind of emotional connection. Someone who will show her some recognition, affirm her that she is good enough, and give her the attention she wanted. She acknowledged that she has a rebellious side. Some people will develop a rebellious side to gain attention. If being good gets you nowhere, at least being bad will give you attention Perhaps this may help you get some understanding..

Of course this is just a theory. Ms. Zed, if your reading this, only you can confirm if I am in the ball park or not. You can tell me if I am wrong, I will be okay with it. If we can recognize where some of your behavior stems from, then we are more likely to be able to help. Also, you gaining insight will make you aware of the issues, and that could be a big step in helping you heal. Btw, I charged by the post. Rice Crispy treats will make a nice payment. Jk. I will be back in a couple of days. Happy holidays. Don't forget to hug one another as you look into each others eyes. In fact, get your daughter in the middle of that hug too.


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## Johnconrad

A few words about right-fighting

Of course I have my view of a situation and how events transpired. If something bothers me, it's because I'm not ok with it. It "could be" that I misunderstood something fundamental in the exchange, so it's helpful to gain that perspective. In my experience, that exercise takes about 2-5 minutes.

After that?

Sticking around and repeating/grinding on your "side" is pointless. You saw what you saw and you experienced what you experienced. It's now your truth. Stating that you're not ok with a given situation doesn't take very long. And, it doesn't mean you're not ok with someone else's behavior, yet it could be exactly that. It could also be you're not ok with some words that got exchanged and/or a misperception that was articulated - a judgement that was made.

"I see this differently" is a very liberating statement.

And, if the other person wishes to continue "making their case" you are under no obligation to listen to a word of it. In fact, it's often an invitation to climb the escalator with them and for things to get really ugly.

At it's core, right-fighting is destructive.

1) The longer right-fighting continues, it borders on and becomes a disrespectful judgement, because you aren't giving the other person room for their view. Literally, you are crowding them out of their perception. They will end up hating you for it.

2) Disrespectful judgements provoke anger. Willard Harley calls disrespectful judgements and emotional outbursts "love busters". They most certainly are. The longer you right-fight, you invite both these poisons into your relationship. Things can - and will - get said that neither of you will ever forget. This is dangerous dangerous ground. Leaving the area and being silent until cooler heads prevail is far preferable.


----------



## Tron

15 years of right-fighting created a real monster of a marriage. We were equal participants.

Left my wife angry, resentful, and convinced I was just an a$$hole that didn't love her. 

Left me angry, frustrated, disconnected and in the guest room in a virtually sexless marriage.


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## zillard

Merry Christmas, folks!

It was great to wake up this morning and open presents with my lovely girls on this very snowy morning. Yummy breakfast, then my brother stopped by unexpectedly, D8 and I gave some gifts to the neighbors and I cleared their sidewalk for them. Preparing food for an early dinner at my folks place while D8 is out playing in the new snow. 

Doesn't get much better than this. 

I hope you all are enjoying yours.


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## Johnconrad

zillard said:


> Merry Christmas, folks!
> 
> It was great to wake up this morning and open presents with my lovely girls on this very snowy morning. Yummy breakfast, then my brother stopped by unexpectedly, D8 and I gave some gifts to the neighbors and I cleared their sidewalk for them. Preparing food for an early dinner at my folks place while D8 is out playing in the new snow.
> 
> Doesn't get much better than this.
> 
> I hope you all are enjoying yours.


You deserve it brother. Every once in awhile, it's helpful to truly move to 50k and look how things "were" last year and the year before that

We're talking real growth here - congratulations. And, Merry Christmas.


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## Suspecting2014

Enjoy every moment and dont forget to tell LadyZ as much as you can how perfect it is when she is with you


----------



## just got it 55

zillard said:


> Merry Christmas, folks!
> 
> It was great to wake up this morning and open presents with my lovely girls on this very snowy morning. Yummy breakfast, then my brother stopped by unexpectedly, D8 and I gave some gifts to the neighbors and I cleared their sidewalk for them. Preparing food for an early dinner at my folks place while D8 is out playing in the new snow.
> 
> Doesn't get much better than this.
> 
> I hope you all are enjoying yours.


ZEE if it got better than that God kept it for him/herself

Merry Christmas to all

55


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## Chuck71

zillard said:


> Merry Christmas, folks!
> 
> It was great to wake up this morning and open presents with my lovely girls on this very snowy morning. Yummy breakfast, then my brother stopped by unexpectedly, D8 and I gave some gifts to the neighbors and I cleared their sidewalk for them. Preparing food for an early dinner at my folks place while D8 is out playing in the new snow.
> 
> Doesn't get much better than this.
> 
> I hope you all are enjoying yours.


This was a long time coming Z. We both had the he!!idays in 2012.

If I recall your 2013 wasn't bad...was it? But your 2014 was my 2013.

It's nice to be a king sometimes.


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## Lifescript

zillard said:


> Merry Christmas, folks!
> 
> It was great to wake up this morning and open presents with my lovely girls on this very snowy morning. Yummy breakfast, then my brother stopped by unexpectedly, D8 and I gave some gifts to the neighbors and I cleared their sidewalk for them. Preparing food for an early dinner at my folks place while D8 is out playing in the new snow.
> 
> Doesn't get much better than this.
> 
> I hope you all are enjoying yours.


Merry Christmas Z! 

You deserve this. 

All the best to you, your D and OLZ!


----------



## Ms. GP

I have been debating for several days on whether or not to post, because in a lot of ways OLZ reminds me of myself and it makes it a little difficult to be unbiased. First of all, I don't think the people here are just "gawking at your train wreck of a marriage." I think most of the people here are good people who get really excited when they think there might be a happy ending. (At least that was my experience) Of course, there are always exceptions. It was interesting to me to see some of the same angry comments hurled at you that were hurled at me. I was also accused of using my husband for a meal ticket. Oh, and the cherry on the crap Sunday was when my husband put on old picture of us up so all the angry cyber trolls could say, "she's not THAT attractive, you can do better, etc." It all felt like a big violation and slap in the face. 

I can also relate to seeing a different person IRL. There was all this anger and vitriol in print and none of it was being expressed to me. I remember thinking,"he hates me, why am I here, and he must just be here for the kids." That is why a good MC for us was a must. I'll be honest I hated just about every second of it. It was very uncomfortable, and I got my feelings hurt a lot. I can now honestly say I can see the benefit from it. A good MC doesn't choose sides in arguments, they are just there to help you understand where the other one is coming from.

There are certain boards on TAM that I would stay away from. They think they have the perfect recipe for a successful R and any deviation from it is grounds for divorce because the WS is obviously unremorseful and rug sweeping. They are full of angry trolls who enjoy playing with people's emotions. Real life isn't so black and white. People aren't all good or bad. They are good days and bad with this stuff. It's hard.

I don't have a lot of advice, but I do applaud OLZ for going to IC. I know how difficult it is to heal FOO issues, but I speak from experience that it can be done. Mostly, I just wanted to let you know you are not alone and that I'm really optimistic for you guys. Good luck. I'm rooting for you guys.


----------



## Chuck71

Ms. GP said:


> I have been debating for several days on whether or not to post, because in a lot of ways OLZ reminds me of myself and it makes it a little difficult to be unbiased. First of all, I don't think the people here are just "gawking at your train wreck of a marriage." I think most of the people here are good people who get really excited when they think there might be a happy ending. (At least that was my experience) Of course, there are always exceptions. It was interesting to me to see some of the same angry comments hurled at you that were hurled at me. I was also accused of using my husband for a meal ticket. Oh, and the cherry on the crap Sunday was when my husband put on old picture of us up so all the angry cyber trolls could say, "she's not THAT attractive, you can do better, etc." It all felt like a big violation and slap in the face.
> 
> I can also relate to seeing a different person IRL. There was all this anger and vitriol in print and none of it was being expressed to me. I remember thinking,"he hates me, why am I here, and he must just be here for the kids." That is why a good MC for us was a must. I'll be honest I hated just about every second of it. It was very uncomfortable, and I got my feelings hurt a lot. I can now honestly say I can see the benefit from it. A good MC doesn't choose sides in arguments, they are just there to help you understand where the other one is coming from.
> 
> There are certain boards on TAM that I would stay away from. They think they have the perfect recipe for a successful R and any deviation from it is grounds for divorce because the WS is obviously unremorseful and rug sweeping. They are full of angry trolls who enjoy playing with people's emotions. Real life isn't so black and white. People aren't all good or bad. They are good days and bad with this stuff. It's hard.
> 
> I don't have a lot of advice, but I do applaud OLZ for going to IC. I know how difficult it is to heal FOO issues, but I speak from experience that it can be done. Mostly, I just wanted to let you know you are not alone and that I'm really optimistic for you guys. Good luck. I'm rooting for you guys.


really glad seeing you post. you two have came a long way


----------



## happyman64

I seconds that.

Keep posting MsGP. You have insight that many of us don't have.

And as to those haters you mentioned. It is true that there are some very hurt people on TAM.

But when they see a former wayward that has grown and overcome some difficult obstacles in their life post and make good sense well I like to think they will "hate" just a little less.

And as far as your picture I remember when GP posted it.

You were and are a beautiful couple.

Both of you keep fighting for each other, your families and your marriage.

HM


----------



## Ms. GP

happyman64 said:


> I seconds that.
> 
> Keep posting MsGP. You have insight that many of us don't have.
> 
> And as to those haters you mentioned. It is true that there are some very hurt people on TAM.
> 
> But when they see a former wayward that has grown and overcome some difficult obstacles in their life post and make good sense well I like to think they will "hate" just a little less.
> 
> And as far as your picture I remember when GP posted it.
> 
> You were and are a beautiful couple.
> 
> Both of you keep fighting for each other, your families and your marriage.
> 
> HM


Thanks HM and Chuckles. I also find it pretty amazing that the same people that supported my husband and I two years ago are now rallying around you guys. That's pretty awesome.

I don't know how much insight I can provide, but here are some of my thoughts. Right now, Z is probably wondering how do I know she won't do this or something similar again. Which I think is fair BTW. There are no words that can fix that right now. Only time and consistent action that can ease that.

I imagine if OLZ is anything like me, her self esteem is in the toilet right now, couple that with her support network being so far away. Things are scary and uncertain for her too. From my experience, it takes ten times longer to rebuild self esteem than it does to tear it apart. For me, it came in the form of getting and staying sober, helping other women get sober, and working in my field again. You see the pattern here? All these things are independent of my husband. I love him dearly, but my self worth doesn't come from anybody but me. We all have our strengths and if we find a way to use them to help others, self esteem is bound to follow. One of my emotional needs is words of affirmation, because I like you didn't get any growing up. So it makes sense, I would marry someone who struggles with it. I swear sometimes if he told me I looked nice he would literally barf in the back of his mouth a little.:rofl: It's OK today. I once heard the goal of marriage is not to be happy, but to bring up all of your deep seated emotional stuff so you can learn to heal it. I like that definition much better. It's not as idealistic and romantic but I really think it's true. We subconsciously seek out people that trigger our stuff, and it usually takes a disaster to point that out to us. So now the fun begins.

I hope that makes sense.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Ms. GP said:


> Thanks HM and Chuckles. I also find it pretty amazing that the same people that supported my husband and I two years ago are now rallying around you guys. That's pretty awesome.
> 
> I don't know how much insight I can provide, but here are some of my thoughts. Right now, Z is probably wondering how do I know she won't do this or something similar again. Which I think is fair BTW. There are no words that can fix that right now. Only time and consistent action that can ease that.
> 
> I imagine if OLZ is anything like me, her self esteem is in the toilet right now, couple that with her support network being so far away. Things are scary and uncertain for her too. From my experience, it takes ten times longer to rebuild self esteem than it does to tear it apart. For me, it came in the form of getting and staying sober, helping other women get sober, and working in my field again. You see the pattern here? All these things are independent of my husband. I love him dearly, but my self worth doesn't come from anybody but me. We all have our strengths and if we find a way to use them to help others, self esteem is bound to follow. One of my emotional needs is words of affirmation, because I like you didn't get any growing up. So it makes sense, I would marry someone who struggles with it. I swear sometimes if he told me I looked nice he would literally barf in the back of his mouth a little.:rofl: It's OK today. I once heard the goal of marriage is not to be happy, but to bring up all of your deep seated emotional stuff so you can learn to heal it. I like that definition much better. It's not as idealistic and romantic but I really think it's true. We subconsciously seek out people that trigger our stuff, and it usually takes a disaster to point that out to us. So now the fun begins.
> 
> I hope that makes sense.



I think the point you are making is we fall for people that challenge us. The reward of overcoming those challenges is we grow as people. Most people do not know how to navigate a relationship in a healthy manner. People are not evil, just disfunctional.


----------



## Chuck71

Ms. GP said:


> Thanks HM and Chuckles. I also find it pretty amazing that the same people that supported my husband and I two years ago are now rallying around you guys. That's pretty awesome.
> 
> I don't know how much insight I can provide, but here are some of my thoughts. Right now, Z is probably wondering how do I know she won't do this or something similar again. Which I think is fair BTW. There are no words that can fix that right now. Only time and consistent action that can ease that.
> 
> I imagine if OLZ is anything like me, her self esteem is in the toilet right now, couple that with her support network being so far away. Things are scary and uncertain for her too. From my experience, it takes ten times longer to rebuild self esteem than it does to tear it apart. For me, it came in the form of getting and staying sober, helping other women get sober, and working in my field again. You see the pattern here? All these things are independent of my husband. I love him dearly, but my self worth doesn't come from anybody but me. We all have our strengths and if we find a way to use them to help others, self esteem is bound to follow. One of my emotional needs is words of affirmation, because I like you didn't get any growing up. So it makes sense, I would marry someone who struggles with it. I swear sometimes if he told me I looked nice he would literally barf in the back of his mouth a little.:rofl: It's OK today. I once heard the goal of marriage is not to be happy, but to bring up all of your deep seated emotional stuff so you can learn to heal it. I like that definition much better. It's not as idealistic and romantic but I really think it's true. We subconsciously seek out people that trigger our stuff, and it usually takes a disaster to point that out to us. So now the fun begins.
> 
> I hope that makes sense.


Chuckles? seriously? now I need to change my handle.....

I'd like to think I wouldn't be blowing bubbles on a Lawrence Welk Show re-run


----------



## Ms. GP

Chuck71 said:


> Chuckles? seriously? now I need to change my handle.....
> 
> I'd like to think I wouldn't be blowing bubbles on a Lawrence Welk Show re-run


It was a tie between Chuckles and Upchuck. I think I picked the lesser of two evils! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

Ms. GP said:


> It was a tie between Chuckles and Upchuck. I think I picked the lesser of two evils!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I know who the evil one is now don't I? :smthumbup:


----------



## jim123

Ms. GP said:


> I have been debating for several days on whether or not to post, because in a lot of ways OLZ reminds me of myself and it makes it a little difficult to be unbiased. First of all, I don't think the people here are just "gawking at your train wreck of a marriage." I think most of the people here are good people who get really excited when they think there might be a happy ending. (At least that was my experience) Of course, there are always exceptions. It was interesting to me to see some of the same angry comments hurled at you that were hurled at me. I was also accused of using my husband for a meal ticket. Oh, and the cherry on the crap Sunday was when my husband put on old picture of us up so all the angry cyber trolls could say, "she's not THAT attractive, you can do better, etc." It all felt like a big violation and slap in the face.
> 
> I can also relate to seeing a different person IRL. There was all this anger and vitriol in print and none of it was being expressed to me. I remember thinking,"he hates me, why am I here, and he must just be here for the kids." That is why a good MC for us was a must. I'll be honest I hated just about every second of it. It was very uncomfortable, and I got my feelings hurt a lot. I can now honestly say I can see the benefit from it. A good MC doesn't choose sides in arguments, they are just there to help you understand where the other one is coming from.
> 
> There are certain boards on TAM that I would stay away from. They think they have the perfect recipe for a successful R and any deviation from it is grounds for divorce because the WS is obviously unremorseful and rug sweeping. They are full of angry trolls who enjoy playing with people's emotions. Real life isn't so black and white. People aren't all good or bad. They are good days and bad with this stuff. It's hard.
> 
> I don't have a lot of advice, but I do applaud OLZ for going to IC. I know how difficult it is to heal FOO issues, but I speak from experience that it can be done. Mostly, I just wanted to let you know you are not alone and that I'm really optimistic for you guys. Good luck. I'm rooting for you guys.


It is very difficult to come on to this board after your BS has been on this forum for a long time. We do get attached. Our opinions are formed by the story the BS has told us. It is hard to separate that.

You have come on this board and have been very impressive.

When you started, GP was a fool to keep you. Now I think he would be a fool to let you go.

I see what he sees in you and he is a lucky man to have you. No one will love him more.

Best wishes in the new year for both of you.


----------



## zillard

Thanks for the posts. 

I have also found the FOO (family of origin) work helpful, though hard. 

I know I've touched on it a bit before, but coming from a large family I was partially raised by an older sister. In ways, I see her and my mother both as mother figures - especially when growing up. They've both had an impact, positive and negative. 

In IC we discovered that due to the size of my family, there are cliques of sorts. Traditional roles siblings play and labels that can be applied to them cycle in the groups. A black sheep, a golden child, etc, in each span. I found that the siblings I have the most trouble getting along with are those that could wear the same label as myself. The intelligent yet critical and the talented golden child. 

I found that with a smothering, co-dependent mother and an unorthodox, troubled sister-mom, it makes sense that I married a women that shares qualities of each. 

Yet I've found that along with FOO issues come FOO benefits. 

I also married a woman who accepts my eccentricities and weirdness and faults, plus shares many of my political and religious views even though they don't align with much of my family (like my sister), and at the same time has a very nurturing, loving side, excels at words of affirmation, and feels valued having someone to care for (like my mother). 

I respond well to the quality time love language because I received a lot of that from my sister at important times in my life when I didn't feel that I received it from mother and father. They were both around, but acceptance of who I was and having that time not be centered around a religion I felt no connection to were important to me. I got that from Sis. 

I respond well to physical touch due to being from a very huggy family. To me physical touch is an important factor that can easily make time quality or not. Mandatory church outings and activities with my parents were not quality time to me, as it had nothing to do with me (though they saw it differently). However, the frequent hugs and kisses, impromptu back rub or hand on a shoulder, even being crowded on the couch due to lack of room... that was quality.


----------



## zillard

Now that being said, it was also very helpful for me to REALLY realize that with a family that large, one-on-one quality time with each of my parents was at the least incredibly difficult for them to achieve, at other times virtually impossible. 

One-on-one QT was often a yearly thing - birthday dinners. That makes sense. Other than that my father would have monthly 1/2 hour "interviews" with us each. A time scheduled to talk with the man of the house and leader. However, they were very religion-centric (one part how you doing in life/school and three parts how are you living up to your obligations to God and the church). Even with the B-day dinners, with multiple brothers having birthdays in the same month as me, and with limited budget due to family size, those birthday dinners were often a joint affair - kill multiple birds with one stone. Most often it was me and my direct older brother, with mom or dad and sometimes both. Cherished times, truly.

I think this played a role in the deep connection that I shared with that brother, as well as proximity in age. This also made it extra hard for me to connect with my family after his death. That feeling of lack of connection, living in another state with my wife and child, I projected onto her. It placed an undeserved responsibility and burden on her - one that she graciously accepted but was ultimately non-sustainable. That placed a lot of stress on our relationship and I accept responsibility for that. Yes, I was asleep and naive during that, which is understandable, but ultimately my fault. For that I am sorry.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Couple of questions for the two of you:

@ Ms.Z

1. How much time elapsed between the end of your relationship with OM and your 'apology' letter to Z?

2. Would you want to date Z again if you did not have a child together?

3. Why did you give up custody of your D, and let Z move so far away with her?

@Z

1. If your relationship with Tiger had not turned sour, and you had gotten that apology letter, would you have dumped Tiger to date your ex?

2. Would you date Ms.Z if you did not have a child together?

There were many times, when I R'ed with my ex after her crappy behavior, that I asked myself "Would I stay with her if we didn't have kids?". When the answer became "no" I knew the relationship was caput.


----------



## Ceegee

So happy to see you (and others) here OLZ!

Wishing the best for you Z and D8 on this new journey.


----------



## Johnconrad

zillard said:


> Now that being said, it was also very helpful for me to REALLY realize that with a family that large, one-on-one quality time with each of my parents was at the least incredibly difficult for them to achieve, at other times virtually impossible.
> 
> One-on-one QT was often a yearly thing - birthday dinners. That makes sense. Other than that my father would have monthly 1/2 hour "interviews" with us each. A time scheduled to talk with the man of the house and leader. However, they were very religion-centric (one part how you doing in life/school and three parts how are you living up to your obligations to God and the church). Even with the B-day dinners, with multiple brothers having birthdays in the same month as me, and with limited budget due to family size, those birthday dinners were often a joint affair - kill multiple birds with one stone. Most often it was me and my direct older brother, with mom or dad and sometimes both. Cherished times, truly.
> 
> I think this played a role in the deep connection that I shared with that brother, as well as proximity in age. This also made it extra hard for me to connect with my family after his death. That feeling of lack of connection, living in another state with my wife and child, I projected onto her. It placed an undeserved responsibility and burden on her - one that she graciously accepted but was ultimately non-sustainable. That placed a lot of stress on our relationship and I accept responsibility for that. Yes, I was asleep and naive during that, which is understandable, but ultimately my fault. For that I am sorry.


We often live in fear of acknowledging our POS tendencies. Vigorous defensiveness, blameshifting, and basically running from them can lead to - literally - a lifetime of disquiet.

Real peace and self-love comes from doing what you're doing here. Owning your own crap. Rooting it out from its source and self-regulating your own internal destructive tendencies.

Quite literally, we ALL have them.

Those that project that make-believe perfection live a lifetime of misery of their own making.

Forgiving ourselves our POS tendencies allows us to see those same things in others and forgive them also. "Really" forgive them. We may eventually choose to not be around them anymore, but true forgiveness brings real inner peace - because we become comfortable with our decisions.


----------



## Ol'lady Z

ThreeStrikes said:


> Couple of questions for the two of you:
> 
> @ Ms.Z
> 
> 1. How much time elapsed between the end of your relationship with OM and your 'apology' letter to Z?
> 
> 2. Would you want to date Z again if you did not have a child together?
> 
> 3. Why did you give up custody of your D, and let Z move so far away with her?
> 
> @Z
> 
> 1. If your relationship with Tiger had not turned sour, and you had gotten that apology letter, would you have dumped Tiger to date your ex?
> 
> 2. Would you date Ms.Z if you did not have a child together?
> 
> There were many times, when I R'ed with my ex after her crappy behavior, that I asked myself "Would I stay with her if we didn't have kids?". When the answer became "no" I knew the relationship was caput.



There never really was a real relationship. I just wanted to be close to someone. I found that in Ringo, and it was several months after our split before I found the courage to tell Z how I really felt about the matter. I wasn't reading here, I thought that would just stunt me or hurt me. When I sent the apology, I had no idea what was happening in his personal life. I just felt that an apology was in order. It took me a while, but I was ready. I had no expectations. I didn't anticipate a response. I just wanted to apologize. No strings.

Between "OM" and apology was more than a year. I had a lot of time to think about things.


I Love Z. I dated another man who reminded me of him. Similar birthdays and all. Every guy I dated, even R who I was with for a while, was compared to Z. He's my one and only. We met for a reason.

This is a hard one. I gave up custody of D because I thought I was going to ruin her. I felt myself acting more and more like my mother and I didn't want her to turn into me. This is incredibly painful to write. I'm full of tears right now. I felt Z would do a better job of raising her than I ever could. I know now that that's a mistake. I'm not my mother, and I could probably never f*ck up as badly as she did. But I thought at that time it was bound to happen. I wanted to save her. And save Z. I didn't want to hurt anyone more than I already did.

Most folks will see this as BS. This was a real thought process for me. I didn't want to ruin the people I held dearest. I loved them so much I wanted to spare them from my dysfunction. I seemed legit at the time.


----------



## Chuck71

OLZ....I always ask this to anyone who has the courage to do the apology letter.

When you wrote the apology letter....how long did it take you to write it?

How much time went between thinking about writing one and writing it?


----------



## Johnconrad

Ol'lady Z said:


> There never really was a real relationship. I just wanted to be close to someone. I found that in Ringo, and it was several months after our split before I found the courage to tell Z how I really felt about the matter. I wasn't reading here, I thought that would just stunt me or hurt me. When I sent the apology, I had no idea what was happening in his personal life. I just felt that an apology was in order. It took me a while, but I was ready. I had no expectations. I didn't anticipate a response. I just wanted to apologize. No strings.
> 
> Between "OM" and apology was more than a year. I had a lot of time to think about things.
> 
> 
> I Love Z. I dated another man who reminded me of him. Similar birthdays and all. Every guy I dated, even R who I was with for a while, was compared to Z. He's my one and only. We met for a reason.
> 
> This is a hard one. I gave up custody of D because I thought I was going to ruin her. I felt myself acting more and more like my mother and I didn't want her to turn into me. This is incredibly painful to write. I'm full of tears right now. I felt Z would do a better job of raising her than I ever could. I know now that that's a mistake. I'm not my mother, and I could probably never f*ck up as badly as she did. But I thought at that time it was bound to happen. I wanted to save her. And save Z. I didn't want to hurt anyone more than I already did.
> 
> Most folks will see this as BS. This was a real thought process for me. I didn't want to ruin the people I held dearest. I loved them so much I wanted to spare them from my dysfunction. I seemed legit at the time.


OLZ,

It doesn't sound like you are fond of yourself.


----------



## ConanHub

Haven't read every post but does Ms. Z have a mental disorder? That last post seemed to indicate that her clock was not ticking correctly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mr.Fisty

There is a difference with someone who has the awareness. Most people are unaware of the disfunction they have inherited from their parents. You have a chance of changing your course, and have a chance of changing your habits and cognitive reasoning. Your temperment is always going to be a part of who you are. If your easily irritable, or quick to smile, that will most likely not change much. But there are tools to learn with the traits about yourself that you find less desireable. If you constantly guilt yourself and bring yourself down, change your cognitive reasoning to I made a mistake, I will try and correct it. I will apologize to those I hurt, and learn to forgive myself. Me bringing me down is not going to do anything but create a negative situation. I can grow as an individual from this.


----------



## Johnconrad

ConanHub said:


> Haven't read every post but does Ms. Z have a mental disorder? That last post seemed to indicate that her clock was not ticking correctly.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We all have our own issues.


----------



## ConanHub

Johnconrad said:


> We all have our own issues.


Aware if that but this seems like more. Was a serious inquiry. At best her thought process was catastrophically irrational. Not being insulting in any way. Genuinely concerned.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

ConanHub said:


> Aware if that but this seems like more. Was a serious inquiry. At best her thought process was catastrophically irrational. Not being insulting in any way. Genuinely concerned.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What part specifically?


----------



## Ms. GP

Yeah. That's just what somebody who had such a horrific traumatic childhood that they think they incapable of truly giving and receivinglove needs. To be accused of having a mental ddisorder!! Great idea!! ( if you can't tell I'm being sarcastic) I'll post more when I calm down. Uggh.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tron

Ms. GP said:


> Yeah. That's just what somebody who had such a horrific traumatic childhood that they think they incapable of truly giving and receivinglove needs. To be accused of having a mental ddisorder!! Great idea!! ( if you can't tell I'm being sarcastic) I'll post more when I calm down. Uggh.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


C'mon sister. Bring it!


----------



## Tron

Ol'lady Z said:


> This is a hard one. I gave up custody of D because I thought I was going to ruin her. I felt myself acting more and more like my mother and I didn't want her to turn into me. This is incredibly painful to write. I'm full of tears right now. I felt Z would do a better job of raising her than I ever could. I know now that that's a mistake. I'm not my mother, and I could probably never f*ck up as badly as she did. But I thought at that time it was bound to happen. I wanted to save her. And save Z. I didn't want to hurt anyone more than I already did.
> 
> Most folks will see this as BS.


No Lady Z. Not BS. 

It is perfect. Because this is you at your core.

I asked this several weeks back:



Tron said:


> Why is it that you feel so unworthy of love and value the love that you give so little?


This is really just another way of asking you why you don't like yourself very much... (Thank you John)

So...why is it? 

What did your mother do to you that made you feel this way? I think I know, but I'd like you to tell us.


----------



## ConanHub

Ms. GP said:


> Yeah. That's just what somebody who had such a horrific traumatic childhood that they think they incapable of truly giving and receivinglove needs. To be accused of having a mental ddisorder!! Great idea!! ( if you can't tell I'm being sarcastic) I'll post more when I calm down. Uggh.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Chill your shot glass. I have lived through more childhood trauma than almost any account published or written otherwise. My youngest sister does have mental disorders from what we went through and my oldest sister has personality disorders. I have ptsd and extreme rage to this day and it is closing on 30 years in the past.

It was not intended to be insulting at all. I also did not accuse but asked.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

farsidejunky said:


> What part specifically?


Where she was so in fear of becoming her mother that she thought some of her, harmful BTW, actions would save her daughter and Z from her. I wonder how much of her damaging behavior was a result of that tortured logic?

Her sentiment was noble but her reasoning was hopelessly fractured.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Ol'lady Z said:


> There never really was a real relationship. I just wanted to be close to someone. I found that in Ringo, and it was several months after our split before I found the courage to tell Z how I really felt about the matter. I wasn't reading here, I thought that would just stunt me or hurt me. When I sent the apology, I had no idea what was happening in his personal life. I just felt that an apology was in order. It took me a while, but I was ready. I had no expectations. I didn't anticipate a response. I just wanted to apologize. No strings.
> 
> Between "OM" and apology was more than a year. I had a lot of time to think about things.
> 
> 
> I Love Z. I dated another man who reminded me of him. Similar birthdays and all. Every guy I dated, even R who I was with for a while, was compared to Z. He's my one and only. We met for a reason.
> 
> This is a hard one. I gave up custody of D because I thought I was going to ruin her. I felt myself acting more and more like my mother and I didn't want her to turn into me. This is incredibly painful to write. I'm full of tears right now. I felt Z would do a better job of raising her than I ever could. I know now that that's a mistake. I'm not my mother, and I could probably never f*ck up as badly as she did. But I thought at that time it was bound to happen. I wanted to save her. And save Z. I didn't want to hurt anyone more than I already did.
> 
> Most folks will see this as BS. This was a real thought process for me. I didn't want to ruin the people I held dearest. I loved them so much I wanted to spare them from my dysfunction. I seemed legit at the time.



Our irrational fears and anger will sometimes prevent us from seeing the reality before us. We all have irrational fears that make us behave in a way we probbly do not like. We cimply conquer irrationality with logic. irrational fear made you believe that you would end up like your mother, and in turn your actions were irrational. With logic, you realize that you are not your mother, and you can learn to change your behavior. To learn is to change and you learn to change your irrational thinking more to a logical way of viewing the world around you. You have to accept that you have good qualities that Zed love and cherishes about you, and you have to cherish those good traits you possess. And we are all flawed in some ways, so we all have weaknesses we can learn to work on. Think logically about the good traits you have. Sometimes we lose focus about what is good about us, and just focus on the negative.


----------



## Ms. GP

I'm sorry to hear to hear that. I mean that. From my perspective, it appeared you were trying to be hurtful and inflammatory hidden under the passive aggressive guise of being helpful. Glad to know I was wrong. I would hate to think someone would really be capable of kicking someone when they are down like that.

Unfortunately, her fractured logic makes sense to me. I grew up with a severely depressed mother, and swore that I would never be like her to the point of developing an addiction to "happy pills."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

Ms. GP said:


> I'm sorry to hear to hear that. I mean that. From my perspective, it appeared you were trying to be hurtful and inflammatory hidden under the passive aggressive guise of being helpful. Glad to know I was wrong. I would hate to think someone would really be capable of kicking someone when they are down like that.
> 
> Unfortunately, her fractured logic makes sense to me. I grew up with a severely depressed mother, and swore that I would never be like her to the point of developing an addiction to "happy pills."
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yup. Both my sisters are alcoholics and I am borderline. I really am concerned. Childhood trauma can rip your whole life up. I never cheated but was angry with my family at odd times and had very loud outbursts at times. Not an excuse, but I didn't even know what was fueling me.

Sorry for your pain as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ms. GP

Only if you let it my friend. I too have 3 alcoholic brothers and one that is bipolar. So I know where you are coming from. That's the sad part of my story. The happy part of my story is that I have been sober almost two years, my marriage is better than I could have ever imagined, and my kids are doing well too. What's also cool is through AA I have met some amazing women who have overcome way more insurmountable obstacles than me. I have one friend that was raped and molested almost every day by her biological father for five years. She is doing well today. She has three years sober, a happy marriage, and a full time job as an rn. She had a lot of help just like me, but I truly believe nothing is insurmountable. I've seen it too many times.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

Ms. GP said:


> Only if you let it my friend. I too have 3 alcoholic brothers and one that is bipolar. So I know where you are coming from. That's the sad part of my story. The happy part of my story is that I have been sober almost two years, my marriage is better than I could have ever imagined, and my kids are doing well too. What's also cool is through AA I have met some amazing women who have overcome way more insurmountable obstacles than me. I have one friend that was raped and molested almost every day by her biological father for five years. She is doing well today. She has three years sober, a happy marriage, and a full time job as an rn. She had a lot of help just like me, but I truly believe nothing is insurmountable. I've seen it too many times.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Agreed but identifying your issues and dealing with them is obviously necessary. I never got addicted to anything, just close, and have a pretty good life for the most part.

For a long time though, I did not know why I was behaving irrationally. Took recognizing and identifying it to help me deal with it effectively.

Good to hear about your friend! Here is to her strength and health!


----------



## just got it 55

Ol'lady Z said:


> There never really was a real relationship. I just wanted to be close to someone. I found that in Ringo, and it was several months after our split before I found the courage to tell Z how I really felt about the matter. I wasn't reading here, I thought that would just stunt me or hurt me. When I sent the apology, I had no idea what was happening in his personal life. I just felt that an apology was in order. It took me a while, but I was ready. I had no expectations. I didn't anticipate a response. I just wanted to apologize. No strings.
> 
> Between "OM" and apology was more than a year. I had a lot of time to think about things.
> 
> 
> I Love Z. I dated another man who reminded me of him. Similar birthdays and all. Every guy I dated, even R who I was with for a while, was compared to Z. He's my one and only. We met for a reason.
> 
> This is a hard one. I gave up custody of D because I thought I was going to ruin her. I felt myself acting more and more like my mother and I didn't want her to turn into me. This is incredibly painful to write. I'm full of tears right now. I felt Z would do a better job of raising her than I ever could. I know now that that's a mistake. I'm not my mother, and I could probably never f*ck up as badly as she did. But I thought at that time it was bound to happen. I wanted to save her. And save Z. I didn't want to hurt anyone more than I already did.
> 
> Most folks will see this as BS. This was a real thought process for me. I didn't want to ruin the people I held dearest. I loved them so much I wanted to spare them from my dysfunction. I seemed legit at the time.


OL ZEE I believe you with all that is in me.

JohnC is on track with his comment about liking yourself

Very tough and emotional stuff for you and ZEE to work through

How it appeared to ZEE was unimaginable that you were abandoning your child.It did cross my mind you were in your way trying to protect D8.

Some time ago I remember a pic ZEE posted of that beautiful child. The hell you went through must have been unimaginable for you as well.

Keep working on your life .Start to believe in yourself one day at a time.And when you finally do and trust that belief you can believe ZEE and D8 believe in you too.

My favorite saying came from my dear departed Grand Mother

“La migliore cosa che Dio abbia mai fatto è un altro giorno” The best thing God ever made is another day.

55


----------



## Chuck71

may 2015 be a positive year for Z and OLZ, regardless of outcome. I have never 

been in a R, so I can't add much. I'm left with meeting an intriguing female

on NYE and


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Ol'lady Z said:


> There never really was a real relationship. I just wanted to be close to someone. I found that in Ringo, and it was several months after our split before I found the courage to tell Z how I really felt about the matter. I wasn't reading here, I thought that would just stunt me or hurt me. When I sent the apology, I had no idea what was happening in his personal life. I just felt that an apology was in order. It took me a while, but I was ready. I had no expectations. I didn't anticipate a response. I just wanted to apologize. No strings.
> 
> Between "OM" and apology was more than a year. I had a lot of time to think about things.
> 
> 
> I Love Z. I dated another man who reminded me of him. Similar birthdays and all. Every guy I dated, even R who I was with for a while, was compared to Z. He's my one and only. We met for a reason.
> 
> This is a hard one. I gave up custody of D because I thought I was going to ruin her. I felt myself acting more and more like my mother and I didn't want her to turn into me. This is incredibly painful to write. I'm full of tears right now. I felt Z would do a better job of raising her than I ever could. I know now that that's a mistake. I'm not my mother, and I could probably never f*ck up as badly as she did. But I thought at that time it was bound to happen. I wanted to save her. And save Z. I didn't want to hurt anyone more than I already did.
> 
> Most folks will see this as BS. This was a real thought process for me. I didn't want to ruin the people I held dearest. I loved them so much I wanted to spare them from my dysfunction. I seemed legit at the time.


Thank you for replying.

First, I think it's important for you to realize there was a "real" relationship with Ringo. You stated you were with him "for a while". That implies a relationship of sorts. Own it. You'll feel better about yourself.

Second, there is no such thing as a "one and only" and "meeting for a reason". We like to think of things that way, to justify our choices and behavior, but it's really bull pucky

I like that you admit your dysfunction. We all have levels of dysfunction tracing back to our childhood. Admitting that is the first step to growth. Embrace your dysfunction, get to the root of it, and *grow*. Ask your therapist about EMDR therapy. It can really help with traumatic childhood experiences.

Now, another few questions:

During the year or so after your relationship with Ringo ended and you moved in with Z, was there ever a time when you did not have a man in your life? Did you ever spend time with just you, not dating, not in a relationship, not looking?

During your time away from your D, there must have been some detachment. Actually, there has to be to retain your sanity (I speak from experience). How did you get through that?

What is your personality type? And Z's?

Personality types | 16Personalities


----------



## zillard

For clarity, OM was first, before the divorce. After OM and before I moved away with DD, she started dating Ringo. She's never denied a relationship with the latter. 

I am an INTJ.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

zillard said:


> For clarity, OM was first, before the divorce. After OM and before I moved away with DD, she started dating Ringo. She's never denied a relationship with the latter.
> 
> I am an INTJ.


Thanks for the clarification. I am INTJ as well.


----------



## zillard

Intjs unite to conquer the world... from their laptops. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ThreeStrikes

zillard said:


> Intjs unite to conquer the world... from their laptops.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You mean we haven't already??


----------



## Tron

ThreeStrikes said:


> You mean we haven't already??


:lol::lol::lol: No. 

Been a long while since I took that test. ENTJ. I think I may have been INTJ 10 years ago...

Interesting and surprisingly accurate.

Now it would seem I am in the company of Steve Jobs, Franklin D. Roosevelt, Richard Nixon (ouch ), Harrison Ford, Steve Martin (love Steve Martin, saw him in concert just a few months ago), Whoopi Goldberg, Margaret Thatcher, Al Gore, Jim Carrey


----------



## Johnconrad

Tron said:


> :lol::lol::lol: No.
> 
> Been a long while since I took that test. ENTJ. I think I may have been INTJ 10 years ago...
> 
> Interesting and surprisingly accurate.
> 
> Now it would seem I am in the company of Steve Jobs, Franklin D. Roosevelt, Richard Nixon (ouch ), Harrison Ford, Steve Martin (love Steve Martin, saw him in concert just a few months ago), Whoopi Goldberg, Margaret Thatcher, Al Gore, Jim Carrey


Al Gore, eh?


----------



## Tron

Johnconrad said:


> Al Gore, eh?


Knew you would get a kick out of that one.


----------



## jld

Johnconrad said:


> Al Gore, eh?


You know, our 43rd President.


----------



## Tron

Johnconrad said:


> Al Gore, eh?


Makes you wonder who is running that site...which one of these doesn't belong. :scratchhead:

Please don't get him started JLD...


----------



## jld

Tron said:


> Makes you wonder who is running that site...which one of these doesn't belong. :scratchhead:
> 
> Please don't get him started JLD...


. Just giving you a hard time, Johnconrad!


----------



## Ol'lady Z

I am also an INTJ. I did have some time before and after Ringo to be alone. It was affirming for me. I could actually do things independently. It was nice to see myself accomplishing things withoit a safety net. I was very proud of myself.

As for the things my mother did that affect me now, we would need a whole 'nother forum and a team of professionals to work that out. I basically became the mother figure to my little brother at age 9 or so. She completely checked out. Top that responsibility with a revolving door of abusive boyfriends, constant mental and physical abuse, and having to play therapist to a grown woman before I even hit the double digits- it messes a girl up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ol'lady Z

To give some perspective, I completely cut her out of my life about 6 years ago. No contact whatsoever. It was one of the hardest things I've ever done, but so beneficial. Like cutting out a malignant cancer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ol'lady Z

And Al Gore thinks he's so fancy. I invented the internets. Jerk keeps trying to steal my thunder.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

Ol'lady Z said:


> And Al Gore thinks he's so fancy. I invented the internets. Jerk keeps trying to steal my thunder.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:rofl:


----------



## zillard

Ol'lady Z said:


> And Al Gore thinks he's so fancy. I invented the internets. Jerk keeps trying to steal my thunder.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Funny you should mention thunder. He has a bar graph of that and loves to point at it while in a cherry picker.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Before I get too distracted... Happy New Years, YFFs


----------



## TheGoodGuy

I take your YFFs as a compliment.


----------



## Ol'lady Z

zillard said:


> Funny you should mention thunder. He has a bar graph of that and loves to point at it while in a cherry picker.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yet another effort to stifle my genius. Who does he think he is anyway?!? Just 'cause a girl doesn't have a cherry picker....


----------



## zillard

Ol'lady Z said:


> Yet another effort to stifle my genius. Who does he think he is anyway?!? Just 'cause a girl doesn't have a cherry picker....


No worries. I'll pick your cherries. But only if you make pie. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ol'lady Z

You better. Or I'll cut you. J/K. Kinda


----------



## Ol'lady Z

I know how to make an awesome vegan pie crust. No store bought garbage here. 

When I'm so inclined, I make a pretty good vegan Julia Child. I got a sharp new chef knife for Christmas. I know very well how to use it.


----------



## zillard

Ol'lady Z said:


> I know how to make an awesome vegan pie crust. No store bought garbage here.
> 
> When I'm so inclined, I make a pretty good vegan Julia Child. I got a sharp new chef knife for Christmas. I know very well how to use it.


As long as the knife stays in the kitchen...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ol'lady Z

Does that apply to pocket knives? These jeans have 5 pockets.


----------



## Ol'lady Z

And nye culminates in a comment about his hair cut. The salon botched it. I offered to fix it. But I'm the enemy. As usual.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Ol'lady Z said:


> Does that apply to pocket knives? These jeans have 5 pockets.


As long as my .380 atop the fridge doesn't apply.


----------



## Ol'lady Z

When do petty arguments end?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ol'lady Z

I know how to handle that piece of equipment also. Well. Does that kill any argument?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Ol'lady Z said:


> And nye culminates in a comment about his hair cut. The salon botched it. I offered to fix it. But I'm the enemy. As usual.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The point of the new haircut was to look nice. Today I got positive comments from D8, and 2 store checkers. I felt good about it. I still do. I think I look good.


----------



## Ol'lady Z

Happy new year. You won.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Ol'lady Z said:


> Happy new year. You won.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


?? I win if all three of us have a great NYE.


----------



## zillard

For me, it's not about the salon.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ol'lady Z

I don't care about the haircut. I care about your general attitude. Big difference. Again, happy new year.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Ol'lady Z said:


> I don't care about the haircut. I care about your general attitude. Big difference. Again, happy new year.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I do. I did it to feel good about me. And I do. I feel better about myself being well groomed. It hurts hearing that I'm not seen as well groomed because I think I am the part of me that wants to be attractive to you thought you would like it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

"They missed some hairs on your neck" is one thing (happens every time). "It doesn't even look like you got ready today" is much different.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Now she is asleep on the couch. I woke her to come to bed and she said she'd be there eventually. She works tomorrow and I likely won't be able to talk to her until after her shift. And then she'll want to decompress, not talk. Small stuff builds up this way. NYE haircuts. Sounds simple. But it's not about a haircut. Not at all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ol'lady Z

It's not aboit the haircut. It goes deeper than that. When things get too good, too normal, I lash out. It's not a concious thing. It just happens. I hate it. And this is why I sort of dislike myself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Ol'lady Z said:


> It's not aboit the haircut. It goes deeper than that. When things get too good, too normal, I lash out. It's not a concious thing. It just happens. I hate it. And this is why I sort of dislike myself.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Chaotic is what your accustomed to, and it simply does not change in a short time. Your out of your element and you have to learn new behavior to replace the one like now. You simply do not know how to operate when things are normal, so for you to feel comfortable, you create tension. You seek drama and escalate because it is a normal behavior for you. Cognitive restructuring is having the awareness to keep reminding yourself to think differently. Slowly you will create new neurological pathways and your habits and behavior will change. As soon as you feel like escalating, keep mentally reminding yourself to calm down, seek a serene place. Leave if you must, and disengage.

I want you to try an exercise to learn to breathe through your diaphragm and use serene imagery. Use an image that will help calm you down. This is useful during meditation. It slows down your heart rate, and lowers blood pressure. Focus your thoughts on cognitive restructuring. Tell yourself that you want peace and tranquility. Tell yourself when things are going well, I will grow and accept them.


----------



## Ol'lady Z

Fisty, I used to do diagram breathing when I sung in high school. Always made me calm. Didn't really think about it till now. That was my meditation and I didn't even realize it until now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Johnconrad

zillard said:


> I do. I did it to feel good about me. And I do. I feel better about myself being well groomed. It hurts hearing that I'm not seen as well groomed because I think I am the part of me that wants to be attractive to you thought you would like it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Realize that the comment was about her - not you.

Part of the syndrome associated with childhood trauma is to put significant others "in their place". In other words, down.

And, I don't think it's altogether conscious. It's more like a reflex.


----------



## Johnconrad

Ol'lady Z said:


> It's not aboit the haircut. It goes deeper than that. When things get too good, too normal, I lash out. It's not a concious thing. It just happens. I hate it. And this is why I sort of dislike myself.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You're putting him in his place.

If you want a mature relationship with him, you're going to have to recognize that sort of thing before you speak - and decide if you "really" want to say it.


----------



## Miss Independent

Ol'lady Z said:


> It's not aboit the haircut. It goes deeper than that. When things get too good, too normal, I lash out. It's not a concious thing. It just happens. I hate it. And this is why I sort of dislike myself.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Are you in IC? Why do you dislike yourself? How can you have a healthy relationship with anyone when you have an unhealthy relationship with yourself?


----------



## Ms. GP

spinsterdurga said:


> Are you in IC? Why do you dislike yourself? How can you have a healthy relationship with anyone when you have an unhealthy relationship with yourself?


Can not agree with this more. I think everyone is giving really good advice, but this is the kind of stuff that needs to be rooted out with a professional face to face.

I asked GP this morning if he read the thread lately. His exact words were, "She sounds like you pre-rehab." I'm not suggesting that, don't get me wrong. But I think a good ic will do wonders. I had to do a lot of work on boundaries. That helped me to learn not to create so much chaos for myself, which in turn helped my self esteem. I read several books on boundaries too. It's hard when you primary caregivers didn't have any. I can relate to the playing therapist to your own mother as a child comment. But they can be learned as an adult.


----------



## Mr The Other

Error.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

I can see why you would not love yourself. Well, I can see a few reasons anyways. I think you hate the parts of yourself that you see your mother in. You probably have some of her behavior, probably not to the same degree as she has it, but you still have behaviors that you did pick up. Growing in that type of environment, you probably did not get the acknowledgement that you seeked. Children will seek praises for when they do something well. It builds self-esteem, confidence, and gives the positive reinforcement when we are doing things correctly. Words of affirmations is really important to you because most likely you never had much of it. It feels good to hear, but it is most likely a foreign concept. I think you do not sometimes believe the good things you hear about yourself. My final conjecture is that you lash out because you are hurt, you have not gotten pass your hurt. It is still a part of you to this day. It creates a wall where it is hard for someone to get close to see the wounded person inside. Also, because of your low esteem, you probably feel like you do not deserve to be happy, and sometimes you will try and prove that. Your anger is also a shield you use to deal with tension, and it masks the feelings of hurt that you feel.

You should seek an ic to untwist the knots of your past. You have to go back and deal with all the issues of the past. That will be difficult because you will most likely not want to relive it. But gaining understanding of what makes us who we are will help undo those old behavior, our old way of thinking, and slowly installing new behavior and new ways of thinking and viewing our self.


----------



## Johnconrad

Mr.Fisty said:


> I can see why you would not love yourself. Well, I can see a few reasons anyways. I think you hate the parts of yourself that you see your mother in. You probably have some of her behavior, probably not to the same degree as she has it, but you still have behaviors that you did pick up. Growing in that type of environment, you probably did not get the acknowledgement that you seeked. Children will seek praises for when they do something well. It builds self-esteem, confidence, and gives the positive reinforcement when we are doing things correctly. Words of affirmations is really important to you because most likely you never had much of it. It feels good to hear, but it is most likely a foreign concept. I think you do not sometimes believe the good things you hear about yourself. My final conjecture is that you lash out because you are hurt, you have not gotten pass your hurt. It is still a part of you to this day. It creates a wall where it is hard for someone to get close to see the wounded person inside. Also, because of your low esteem, you probably feel like you do not deserve to be happy, and sometimes you will try and prove that. Your anger is also a shield you use to deal with tension, and it masks the feelings of hurt that you feel.
> 
> You should seek an ic to untwist the knots of your past. You have to go back and deal with all the issues of the past. That will be difficult because you will most likely not want to relive it. But gaining understanding of what makes us who we are will help undo those old behavior, our old way of thinking, and slowly installing new behavior and new ways of thinking and viewing our self.


This gets really complicated.

Quite often, a childhood trauma victim "relives" their childhood while raising their own. OLZ (I apologize for speaking of you in the 3rd person, I so much want you guys to make a run at this and do well) likely has many deep emotional responses to what happened on her family of origin and when she encounters situations with D8, those triggers can kick in and simply ruin things.

For instance, we all agree that discipline and limits make a child feel loved and secure. Kids have no idea how much the world sucks. They're innocent. YET, a childhood trauma victim "may" associate the very discipline necessary to raise a mature adult WITH the feeling of being unloved and "on their own"

How difficult do you think it is to be an effective parent when actually enforcing limits on your kids sends you into emotional hell - because deep inside those young parts of you associate that conflict with "not being loved"?

And, this is merely ONE issue.

It's like peeling back an onion. A patient loving partner and a good relationship can really help. But, it doesn't help at all when that loving partner kisses your ass - overlooking your crap because he believes he can "love it out of you".

For when those immature parts of you start to get their way, the emotional response is to lose respect for your partner and to start taking more and more... with no limits. It can lead to abusive behaviors, addictive behaviors, affairs, or worse.


----------



## zillard

Mr.Fisty said:


> You probably have some of her behavior, probably not to the same degree as she has it, but you still have behaviors that you did pick up.


I can confidently say that where there are shared behaviors, the gap between them, in degrees of severity, is much different. I attribute that to an obvious, severe personality disorder vs learned behaviors. 

That is good news. 

OLZ has many things in common with her mother. She likely won't want to hear that, but I do often see that as a good thing. In many ways I quickly grew to love and respect her mother, and it's obvious to me where the very attractive, impressive qualities that I cherish about OLZ originated. 

OLZ was blessed with the best of her mother, and lucked out by not receiving the worst of her (even when she doesn't see that).


----------



## Mr.Fisty

zillard said:


> I can confidently say that where there are shared behaviors, the gap between them, in degrees of severity, is much different. I attribute that to an obvious, severe personality disorder vs learned behaviors.
> 
> That is good news.
> 
> OLZ has many things in common with her mother. She likely won't want to hear that, but I do often see that as a good thing. In many ways I quickly grew to love and respect her mother, and it's obvious to me where the very attractive, impressive qualities that I cherish about OLZ originated.
> 
> OLZ was blessed with the best of her mother, and lucked out by not receiving the worst of her (even when she doesn't see that).



We all have our good qualities. Even her mother with all her disorders. O.L.Z. has recognize her weaknesses and has to work on them. It is hard work undoing years of behavior and habits, but it is possible. She will need a help from an ic to navigate her past to accomplish it. You and d8 can be supportive just by being there. She has to learn to care for herself, and do it for herself and not use other people as a crutch . It is better to learn to stand on your own two feet. You both can be there for moral support.


----------



## Johnconrad

Fisty brings up a really important point.

Most everything in life exists on a "continuum"

Behavioral traits are just one of those things.

We ALL exhibit symptoms of borderline personality disorder from time to time.

In GENERAL, those with better parents have a better time of it. But, every single one of us displays those symptoms. It's called being human.

There is no cure for human behavior. Self-regulation of destructive behaviors is actually the key for civilization in general.

It's called growing up.

And, the good news is, it's never "really" too late.


----------



## Ceegee

Johnconrad said:


> Fisty brings up a really important point.
> 
> Most everything in life exists on a "continuum"
> 
> Behavioral traits are just one of those things.
> 
> We ALL exhibit symptoms of borderline personality disorder from time to time.
> 
> In GENERAL, those with better parents have a better time of it. But, every single one of us displays those symptoms. It's called being human.
> 
> There is no cure for human behavior. Self-regulation of destructive behaviors is actually the key for civilization in general.
> 
> It's called growing up.
> 
> And, the good news is, it's never "really" too late.



You have to be aware of it before you can regulate it. 

Most stay stuck in victim hood rather than facing their POS tendencies.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Ol'lady Z said:


> It's not aboit the haircut. It goes deeper than that. When things get too good, too normal, I lash out. It's not a concious thing. It just happens. I hate it. And this is why I sort of dislike myself.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sounds a little like fear of engulfment. This jives with your personality type. Work through this with your IC. It will have its roots in your FOO issues.


----------



## Ms. GP

ThreeStrikes said:


> Sounds a little like fear of engulfment. This jives with your personality type. Work through this with your IC. It will have its roots in your FOO issues.


I've never heard of this. Can you or somebody elaborate on this?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

Johnconrad said:


> For when those immature parts of you start to get their way, the emotional response is to lose respect for your partner and to start taking more and more... with no limits. It can lead to abusive behaviors, addictive behaviors, affairs, or worse.


While I certainly had (have) my share of issues, this was exactly what my wife was struggling with. Combine that with a "nice guy", and you have the perfect storm for a total loss of respect.

Confronting those issues head on, in IC, helped her tremendously. It would do you a world of good, OLZ.


----------



## Johnconrad

Ms. GP said:


> I've never heard of this. Can you or somebody elaborate on this?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Engulfment and Abandonment Fears — You are Human


----------



## Pam

Aw, I had not seen this thread until this weekend; I am sorry things aren't going as peacefully as you had hoped.

I remember following several of you young men (Zillard, CeeGee, GoodGuy, PBar(?), ReGroup, GutPunch, and a couple more) through the original threads, and a few follow-ups, and feeling like "Mom". And then there was the Bullwinkle thread. Um, yeah, after that debacle I stayed away for a little while (plus I really miss Conrad).

But I had seen that you two were going to try to make it again, and sent up a prayer for you; then life got busy and I wasn't here much. So I missed this.

I do hope, for all your sakes, that you are able to make it work. I agree that it would have been better if LadyZ had moved into a different domicile and you two started out more slowly. But what is done, is done. I'll keep up now, usually quietly, but with positive wishes for you.


----------



## soccermom2three

Pam said:


> I remember following several of you young men (Zillard, CeeGee, GoodGuy, PBar(?), ReGroup, GutPunch, and a couple more) through the original threads, and a few follow-ups, and feeling like "Mom". And then there was the Bullwinkle thread. Um, yeah, after that debacle I stayed away for a little while (plus I really miss Conrad).
> 
> .


Pam, I glad you posted this because I've always felt the same way about these guys, even though I mainly lurked. Maybe because they were some of the first threads I read here when I joined but I wonder how they are doing now. I wish there was an update thread where they can let us know.

(sorry for the thread jack)


----------



## Ceegee

Kicking azz thank you very much.


----------



## Chuck71

Ceegee said:


> Kicking azz thank you very much.


isn't it nice to be able to tell time without seeing the hands?


----------



## TheGoodGuy

I'm still around Pam. My thread is called 'chronicles of the good guy' in LAD.


----------



## zillard

Pam said:


> Aw, I had not seen this thread until this weekend; I am sorry things aren't going as peacefully as you had hoped.
> 
> I remember following several of you young men (Zillard, CeeGee, GoodGuy, PBar(?), ReGroup, GutPunch, and a couple more) through the original threads, and a few follow-ups, and feeling like "Mom". And then there was the Bullwinkle thread. Um, yeah, after that debacle I stayed away for a little while (plus I really miss Conrad).
> 
> But I had seen that you two were going to try to make it again, and sent up a prayer for you; then life got busy and I wasn't here much. So I missed this.
> 
> I do hope, for all your sakes, that you are able to make it work. I agree that it would have been better if LadyZ had moved into a different domicile and you two started out more slowly. But what is done, is done. I'll keep up now, usually quietly, but with positive wishes for you.


Thanks Pam. More good times than not. Hence the (now) infrequent updates. Surely not as peaceful as I expected, though I didn't expect smooth sailing. If it were all calm waters I'd be much more worried. 

For almost a decade we never fought. I previously saw that as a badge of honor. Silly me.


----------



## zillard

Through fighting and arguments, I know her better than I ever did before. And that's a good thing (even if many of the arguments are not). 

Previously we were both doing everything in our power to maintain the delusion of bliss.


----------



## Tron

zillard said:


> For almost a decade we never fought. I previously saw that as a badge of honor. Silly me.


Not sure why, but that made me chuckle.


----------



## zillard

Tron said:


> Not sure why, but that made me chuckle.


I know why. 'cause it was bullship. 

Even the best relationship comes with arguments.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

zillard said:


> Through fighting and arguments, I know her better than I ever did before. And that's a good thing (even if many of the arguments are not).
> 
> Previously we were both doing everything in our power to maintain the delusion of bliss.



Except the issues were never dealt with, just ignored. Now sometimes you are arguing, and she is triggering when you do. So she lashes out from what I have gathered. One of you have to be conscious of the triggering, or both. You have to cut the communication and let things cool down so you can have a normal conversation. There is arguing as in attacking each other, and the healthier way of debating the issues without resorting to an attack. With the more debating style, you at least have to be responsive to the others point. You can come to a better understanding without the vicious blows, but it has to be a conscious effort.


----------



## Johnconrad

zillard said:


> I know why. 'cause it was bullship.
> 
> Even the best relationship comes with arguments.


I had a 20 year relationship like that - with my ex.

Bliss... 24/7

And, if I slipped up, I had Jiminy Cricket to call me to my "better self".

She even called that character "good John"

What a tool I was.


----------



## Ceegee

New relationship. 

It's easier now. 

When she yells it's her issue. 

When she cries it's my issue. 

I take each head on rather than sweeping under the rug. 

I don't like the crying because I'm about to eat a ship sandwich. I don't like the yelling because I have to talk her into eating one. 

Bitter pills to swallow but in the end they cure what's ailing the relationship.


----------



## Ceegee

Johnconrad said:


> I had a 20 year relationship like that - with my ex.
> 
> 
> 
> Bliss... 24/7
> 
> 
> 
> And, if I slipped up, I had Jiminy Cricket to call me to my "better self".
> 
> 
> 
> She even called that character "good John"
> 
> 
> 
> What a tool I was.



Bricks.


----------



## Johnconrad

Ceegee said:


> Bricks.


An entire Berlin Wall of them.


----------



## Chuck71

Z....I have spoke on my 1st and 2nd love (will tonight on my blog) and the break up

and eventual get back together. With 2nd, it was quite a few. Anyway...most of

the times we said we were sorry but a few months later, that resentment

resurfaced. Granted I was a teen and early 20's...as were they...but

it never was the same after the first break up. Not busting through the barriers

probably had a lot to do with things never reaching previous zenith.

Sure we were all kids...not exactly great coping mechanisms. Recently

I have made a re-connect with each. I have talked in great detail with them.

What ate at you? What did I do you never said a word about? All in all...

these barriers have to be crossed. But you have been given the chance to

do it together. It will be a slow process...but every battle won will give you 

momentum...into the next.


----------



## SpunkySpunky

Z, just read the entire thread, just want you to know I am rooting for you guys...it's really hard but it is possible to get back together, especially if both work on themselves as well as a couple. It's always work but I believe it is worth it if you truly love someone.


----------



## turnera

Ol'lady Z said:


> It's not aboit the haircut. It goes deeper than that. When things get too good, too normal, I lash out. It's not a concious thing. It just happens. I hate it. And this is why I sort of dislike myself.


Sounds like the kind of thing you should be discussing with a therapist.


----------



## Kevinb

turnera said:


> Sounds like the kind of thing you should be discussing with a therapist.


:iagree:


----------



## zillard

I've been away for a while. Thanks for all the input. 

Everything's actually been very nice for month or so. I'm enjoying it. Working on living in the present more, so less updates. 

Birthdays weekend coming up. Mine and D's. Will be traveling a little to take D to a planetarium, aquarium, natural history museum, and chill at a hotel with a pool. She decided she wants a birthday party with friends every other year and "cool stuff with you guys" otherwise. 

Sounds good to me. As bro sits the house/dogs, I get to see stars, sharks, and dinosaur bones before lounging. 

Is funny that D thinks this is about her.


----------



## zillard

Calm waters take a boat nowhere. 
Waves move mountains. 
Which mountains depends on direction.
Rowing in the right direction helps.


----------



## farsidejunky

Such a cryptic tease of a post, Z.


----------



## zillard

Just a thought. A response to the thought that it's best not to make waves. The latter thought is true only if everything is perfect. But nothing ever is. 

The crucial point is that's OK.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

zillard said:


> Just a thought. A response to the thought that it's best not to make waves. The latter thought is true only if everything is perfect. But nothing ever is.
> 
> The crucial point is that's OK.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Glad to hear it, Z. 

And yes, waves are sometimes necessary. 

Give our best to OLZ.


----------



## Chuck71

Making these waves are what never occurred in the past

This is progress. Both of you are fighting for what you had but....

the right way. I'm so fvcking proud of the both of you!

Never forget Z..... you're a Jedi...... sometimes we know, without knowing


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Facing those waves is crucial in understanding. If let alone, the pressure builds up and up, till the container blows up like a bomb.

Also, healthy ways of dealing with conflict is also necessary. It should feel safe to express your emotions, and not attack one another. Disengage if things escalate. Come back when emotions have leveled off. You can't make someone feel anything unless they choose to feel it.


----------



## TheGoodGuy

How you guys holding up Z and OLZ?


----------



## zillard

Oh we've been doing fairly well. Until tonight. We had an argument. I stepped into the garage to work on a project. Apparently she thought I was already in bed. She opened door to the garage asking if I was still outside. Was nice except for the response saying,"you're lucky I didn't lock you out again". That triggered me, reminding me of when she did exactly that. I tried to express that to her, how I never want to hear anything like that. And now I'm the ass for bringing up old ship.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

zillard said:


> Oh we've been doing fairly well. Until tonight. We had an argument. I stepped into the garage to work on a project. Apparently she thought I was already in bed. She opened door to the garage asking if I was still outside. Was nice except for the response saying,"you're lucky I didn't lock you out again". That triggered me, reminding me of when she did exactly that. I tried to express that to her, how I never want to hear anything like that. And now I'm the ass for bringing up old ship.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Too bad. This is my house. I will not react kindly to anyone talking about locking me out. It may have been innocent, but it's still unacceptable. Especially with our past. Sure anyone could take me to task for being too sensitive. I see things differently. This type of thing is indicative of pervasive thought patterns that don't work with what I have in mind. 

Am I being anal?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

I think I would ask her if she actually meant that. If she, at this point, would still actually do that.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

We all trigger and act irrationally at times. We can only minimize our bad habits by reinforcing better ones. But on occasions, we relapse into old behavior.

When our emotions run high, we lose more and more of the ability to think and behave rationally. When in fight or flight mode, we act more on the reptilian side of our brain.

When the two of you calm down, you both should discuss the trigger. Remember to make it a non-attack zone. Attacking only leads to defensiveness or counter attacks. Nobody wins during a shouting match, because nothing gets resolved.


----------



## Chuck71

zillard said:


> Oh we've been doing fairly well. Until tonight. We had an argument. I stepped into the garage to work on a project. Apparently she thought I was already in bed. She opened door to the garage asking if I was still outside. Was nice except for the response saying,"you're lucky I didn't lock you out again". That triggered me, reminding me of when she did exactly that. I tried to express that to her, how I never want to hear anything like that. And now I'm the ass for bringing up old ship.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just smile..... find a lease agreement, fill it out. Give her her own key.

Rent is due on the 1st.... 5 day grace period. 

Struggling to pay rent may be a trigger for her.

But she should have worded that differently

just taking out the word "again" would have helped.

She signed up knowing you would be sensitive to certain things

how can you be an ass when she knew to avoid certain phrases

OLZ always think before you speak.... once it is said,

you can't take it back


----------



## Chuck71

zillard said:


> Too bad. This is my house. I will not react kindly to anyone talking about locking me out. It may have been innocent, but it's still unacceptable. Especially with our past. Sure anyone could take me to task for being too sensitive. I see things differently. This type of thing is indicative of pervasive thought patterns that don't work with what I have in mind.
> 
> Am I being anal?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


To most, yes you seem to be anal. But ones who have followed your entire

thread are aware why you triggered. It's like OLZ saying something about a

destination she would like to go to. You reply you had already been to that

place (with T) and it was not a desirable area. To her...she may accept that but

it was desirable enough to take T there and not her. 

When it turns into a urinating contest, walk away.

"I'm not ok with talking about it right now but I will later."


----------



## Pluto2

She said something that made you trigger. That's just the way R works. It will happen for both of you. You did the honest thing by trying to explain what was going on with you and your trigger.
Not an ass.
When heads have calmed ask her if she honestly believes triggers should not be discussed, I'll bet she'll say no.


----------



## farsidejunky

I have read your entire thread, Z.

Sorry, but your triggering is your responsibility. Could she have been more sensitive? Sure. But she has always been that way. And you know this.

Focus on what you need to own, Z; your own actions. You know you are strong enough to handle it.

Apologize to her. She may just surprise you and do the same.


----------



## turnera

Few people agree with you when you attack them. That's why you discuss things when you're not upset, why you wait. She'll probably agree and see how bad it was - later. But not when YOU are angry.


----------



## zillard

jld said:


> I think I would ask her if she actually meant that. If she, at this point, would still actually do that.


Of course that answer would always be "no". But I'd be naive to think that, in the heat of the moment, the no wouldn't become a yes.


----------



## turnera

Are you two in therapy?


----------



## zillard

No. I agree that it's a good idea. However, I know that it's something that will do no good if forced. Been there.


----------



## turnera

Well, you have the right to stop dating her without it. You sound like you feel you have no control. Again.


----------



## Chuck71

Z do you feel OLZ is guilty of emotional espionage?


----------



## Mr.Fisty

How about going into therapy on your own. Work on your own issues, and perhaps talk to a marriage counselor to help you learn some tips and tools in your relationship.

The way your partner grew up, she had to bottle a lot inside. She is going against something that is ingrained in her. She learned to keep her pain inside, and she only knows how to unleash when she is triggered as well.

Another thing, she might not be used to happiness or stability. People from abusive backgrounds will often need the drama to be able to operate. They cannot handle norm,, and they need some rewiring and healthy coping mechanisms to learn to deal with stress. When things are going well, she may not know what she is suppose to do or behave, those things may be an alien concept to her.


----------



## zillard

turnera said:


> Well, you have the right to stop dating her without it. You sound like you feel you have no control. Again.


Oh, I have control over a great many things. She is, intentionally, not one of them. That isn't my place, and it also doesn't work.

I know that's not what you are getting at, Turnera.


----------



## zillard

Therapy is such a great thing. I highly value it. 

But I've learned that it only helps those who are into it. People who go to please someone else are simply not receptive. Unless they happen to hire that one unicorn. If they don't like what they hear, the therapist is instantly a quack and from that point forward it's just going through the motions. This is why I will not require her to go. 

I do and will require progress though.


----------



## turnera

Really? So what are you requiring in the way of her getting a heart?

A remorseful person would NEVER have said what she said, because she'd have been thinking constantly of YOUR pain due to her actions, and how to EASE that pain.


----------



## zillard

turnera said:


> Really? So what are you requiring in the way of her getting a heart?
> 
> A remorseful person would NEVER have said what she said, because she'd have been thinking constantly of YOUR pain due to her actions, and how to EASE that pain.


Oh, in that moment, I doubt she was thinking at all. Likely just angry and relying on learned behaviors. Very much like instinct.


----------



## turnera

Angry about what? You being in the garage? I'm talking about thoughtlessly saying that BEFORE the argument.


----------



## Dedicated2Her

Reading this....Her words don't sound like it's coming from a place of anger. You need to own your triggers. 

Regardless of what relationship you have (another woman or x wife), you will trigger. It's natural. It's the ability to see it, sit your partner down after you have a chance to analyze it, and explain it to them that makes the future relationship work. It also takes being with a partner who is understanding and shows humility. My fiance and I have both had moments where we triggered, however, I have been fortunate enough to have a fiance who follows my lead on how I want to handle those situations. We have developed a good pattern for it, and it has helped us grow closer because of the triggers.

If her reaction is negative or angry or defensive when you have the opportunity to explain, you need to really evaluate the partner you are investing in.


----------



## Tron

In a perfect world everyone thinks before they say something, even when they are angry. The reality is that most of us say things we don't mean, especially when tempers flare...and those things will trigger old feelings and old resentments. 

Ms Tron and I are both guilty of it. We have said horrible things to each in the 25 years we've been together, and coincidentally, I triggered this week. I own those feelings, and immediately recognized those old resentments, calmed down and just told her that I didn't like it. And moved on. 

It is now up to her to either continue doing what made me trigger or not. I suspect not, at least not intentionally or to hurt me. And that's ok.


----------



## Lifescript

Z, 

I don't think you are being anal and although it's true that you have to own your triggers it doesn't take away from the fact that she said something that triggered you because of your past with her. Did you guys talk about it? Did you tell her this was a trigger for you and ask that she doesn't say it again? Anything other than a sympathetic response from her and a promise to not say it again signals lack of empathy and understanding. But maybe she will surprise you and apologize. Minor setback that's all. Glad things have been going good between you two. Keep marching forward. Things like this will happen in R.


----------



## hope4family

Call me a two year old. That mad ME hurt and trigger. 

The wise sage H4F would want me to say. "Well that's a d(word) thing to say to someone don't you think? Want to try again to make sure the context isn't wrong." 

But the H4F who triggers wants to say. "That's fighting words." 

Really folks, no matter how much either side messes up. Old lady z, that is like putting lemon juice on a papercut. 

Should spouses who strike one another point out during/after an argument that "Hey at least I am not striking you. Like ya'know that other time."

Sorry. That upsets me. Now I am going to storm off in my own cave and wallow in it until it passes. (Don't lock me out!)

You basically admitted to a period where you mentally disrespected him and mentally abused his mind, and now you put the knife out and want to call yourself better because by saying it, it is still an option in your mind.


----------



## Chuck71

Could it be possible she subconsciously meant to say that?


----------



## turnera

Chuck71 said:


> Could it be possible she subconsciously meant to say that?


Seriously!

Neither of you seems to have done much of any reflection, especially with a professional, on how the marriage ended up affair-worthy. So why expect different behavior out of either of you now?


----------



## Ms. GP

I think one of the hardest things to do in a relationship (any relationship really) is to assert yourself when your feelings are hurt without automatically assigning negative intentions to the other person. I'm not going to assume her intentions because quite frankly I wasn't there and there is very little information to go off of. Z, your feelings are you're feelings. They are neither good nor bad. Being able to express them to your wife in a healthy way is the only way to not let a wall of resentment to build.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Ms. GP said:


> I think one of the hardest things to do in a relationship (any relationship really) is to assert yourself when your feelings are hurt without automatically assigning negative intentions to the other person.


OMG, this is SO true! Society today, you're not allowed to be upset because people are so touchy that it automatically means you're trashing them. It's ridiculous.

It's very hard, but very important, to learn that it's ok to SAY that something bothers you without worrying if the other person will turn it into WWIII. If they do? THEIR problem and you walk away.

And it's very obvious that you ARE afraid to say things, your truth, fearing HER reaction. 

You'll never have a healthy relationship if you temper your choices because of someone else. State your truth and walk away and let them own their own reaction. As long as you're not being rude, it's not your problem.


----------



## Ms. GP

That's a good point too, Turnera. Fear of someone's reaction shouldn't motivate one's decision to express themselves. The point I was also trying to make was (to both of them actually) when your feelings are hurt to not automatically assume the other person meant to hurt them. For example, last week GP saw me putting some whitening stuff on my teeth. It upset him. He calmly told me. I apologized and asked what he needed from me. He realized there wasn't any malice in my actions and we talked and let it go. 

We don't always navigate this stuff well, but I think that time we did. It's hard but you do the best you can with what's right in front of you. That's really all you can do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 06Daddio08

zillard said:


> Oh, in that moment, I doubt she was thinking at all. Likely just angry and relying on learned behaviors. Very much like instinct.


All I could hear while reading that was egg shells cracking. After everything that's gone on, that's nothing but an excuse for her poor behavior. 

It's how we handle those 'in the moment' moments that truly define us. Grab the broom and start sweeping.

Might sound harsh, a comment like that is nothing but passive aggressive and severely unneeded. If you stepped out of the situation and into the garage to work on a project, that's removing yourself from things escalating and she brought it back to you. Not acceptable.


----------



## Pluto2

Remember, try to look at it from 50,000 feet.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

zillard said:


> Oh Was nice except for the response saying,"you're lucky I didn't lock you out again".
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


To which you should have replied:

" I know! Cuz then I couldn't have come to bed and had monkey sex with you!"

Remember, we respond to fitness tests with humor.

This was a good opportunity to show growth on your part, Z.


----------



## Ol'lady Z

turnera said:


> Really? So what are you requiring in the way of her getting a heart?
> 
> A remorseful person would NEVER have said what she said, because she'd have been thinking constantly of YOUR pain due to her actions, and how to EASE that pain.


Wow. 

Those are some strong words coming from someone who has absolutely no idea about the details from that night. Comments like these are why I had no interest in posting here for so very long. 

Remorse is there. I do actually have a heart. Believe it or not. I am a human, my emotions fluctuate. Just like everyone else. 

During the evening in question, we started alright. Drinks were consumed. We had a few little tiffs. I was irritated. Z is very hard to talk to when we are imbibing, especially when one of us has had more to drink than the other. We had some disagreements. I thought that Z had gone to bed. I went around the house locking doors and turning off lights like I generally do every night when it's well past midnight. Normal routine.

I poked my head out of the kitchen door to make sure all of the humans and animals were where they should be before I went to bed. I was quite surprised to find Z in the garage. I made a comment about how I was glad I checked, otherwise I would have locked him out. I added the word "again". I probably shouldn't have. It wasn't an intentional jab. It was completely innocent. I wasn't looking to throw jabs, I wasn't looking to start a fight. To imply that I'm heartless is rude and disrespectful. I understand that this is the internet, all anonymous and ripe for judgement, but there are humans on the other end of every statement you make. Humans that are doing the best they can. Please try to remember that. 

So we hit a snag. I triggered him. It happens. It will most likely happen again. He triggers me. That too will most likely happen again. Does that mean Z is as heartless as I? Or does it mean Z is as HUMAN as I?


----------



## Chuck71

How are things currently?


----------



## Ol'lady Z

Chuck, things are ok right now. Some days are phenomenal, some are crap. Just like they are for everyone everywhere all the dang time. And to address your previous comment, NO. It wasn't a subconscious thing. I honestly didn't mean anything when I poked my head out of that door. I was just trying to close up house and go to bed. Nothing more, nothing less. 

It seems that a few of ya'll see me as some sort of homewrecking harlot who lives for dysfunction and chaos. 

I grew up with dysfunctions and chaos. I don't want to replicate that. I grew up with Gemma from Sons of Anarchy. Maybe that will give some of you guys some kind of baseline for me. I've actively tried (maybe not succeeded all of the time, but tried) to avoid going down the same path. Sometimes it's easy. Sometimes it's a struggle. I can't ever blame my upbringing for who I am today, but it's certainly shaped my identity and guided how I am today. 

I've seen some sh*t. I've been through even more sh*t. That sh*t shaped me. It scarred me. It made me tougher. It made mean. It made me ruthless. It made me sad. It made me hurt the people who are closest to me. But it also quite literally led to my survival.


----------



## zillard

Ol'lady Z said:


> I added the word "again". I probably shouldn't have. It wasn't an intentional jab. It was completely innocent.





Ol'lady Z said:


> And to address your previous comment, NO. It wasn't a subconscious thing. I honestly didn't mean anything when I poked my head out of that door.


I'm officially confused. 

If not intentional, and not subconscious, from whence did it come?


----------



## Ol'lady Z

Clearly I'm just trying to start a fight. I'm glad you woke up from your whiskey stupor to get this started all over again.

Drunk fights accomplish nothing. Just like the rum-fueled fight had nothing to do with anything in the past. 

Good times. 

Chuck, things were ok before I left the house today. Apparently 5.5hrs can change everything.


----------



## Ol'lady Z

When you passed out after putting D9 to bed I thought I was in the clear since you passed out in bed before I could even make it downstairs. She even mentioned how verbose you were. But I'm the only problem. 

Good times.


----------



## happyman64

I have a suggestion for both you Z's.

Take every drop of liquor in the house and throw it out.

It obviously does not add any positive effect to your homelife.


Start there.

PS
Liquor includes even distilled drinks and all types of beer. Anything with alcohol should be forbidden in your situation.


----------



## Pluto2

OLZ, you are on here clearly trying to make Z the bad guy.

You are absolutely correct that we weren't there, didn't see everything and didn't hear it. But honestly, will lashing out on this board to the man you want to reconcile with help the situation? Are you trying to get Z to apologize for drinking? for triggering? Or are you behaving this way because of your hard past and that's just the way you are? If its the latter, you can have control over the future.

Everybody has a past, that's nothing special. But I want more than anything for you and Z and your daughter to be happy together.


----------



## Sandie

I agree with the poster who said there should be NO drinking!

You two clearly can NOT handle it and it makes your problems so much WORSE!


----------



## zillard

Pluto2 said:


> OLZ, you are on here clearly trying to make Z the bad guy.
> 
> You are absolutely correct that we weren't there, didn't see everything and didn't hear it. But honestly, will lashing out on this board to the man you want to reconcile with help the situation? Are you trying to get Z to apologize for drinking? for triggering? Or are you behaving this way because of your hard past and that's just the way you are? If its the latter, you can have control over the future.
> 
> Everybody has a past, that's nothing special. But I want more than anything for you and Z and your daughter to be happy together.


Well, ship hit the fan tonight. Argument started, she told me she'd like me better if I wasn't breathing. I told her to sleep in the guest room, went in the master and locked the door. She kicked it in, damaging the door, the wall, and my hand. I called my brother to come pick up d9 and me. He couldn't come so sent my nephew. When he arrived she took d9 into the room I previously locked and told her she is going nowhere among other things. With nephew as witness, I told either she let's us both leave for the night or she does. She refused. I informed her I would call it in if necessary. She egged it on. I did. Cops came, assessed situation, and OLZ is now in jail with multiple charges until her court appearance on the 20th. 

Telling your daughter her mom is in jail is not an easy thing. She seems to understand though. I told her it is OK to get angry, but kicking, screaming, and breaking things is not OK. "Yeah, I saw the door", d said. 

Wish me luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Sounds like that is it for the reconciliation.


----------



## Chuck71

OMFG........ Was this blow up a culmination of the last few days or was it out of the blue?


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Perhaps the two of you should separate. Too many personal issues in the way.

It was a mistake to move in together, especially with so much baggage from the previous marriage, and from earlier life as well.

Really, relationship can only be strong with two mentally healthy people. Perhaps you should let her find her own place.

Lets be honest, it would be better for your daughter to have stability of some sort. Her mother will still be in her life, and she will not have these memories. The less episode that your daughter has to face of this dysfunction, the better for her mental health. The two of you together are an unstable pair.


----------



## just got it 55

Mr.Fisty said:


> How about going into therapy on your own. Work on your own issues, and perhaps talk to a marriage counselor to help you learn some tips and tools in your relationship.
> 
> The way your partner grew up, she had to bottle a lot inside. She is going against something that is ingrained in her. She learned to keep her pain inside, and she only knows how to unleash when she is triggered as well.
> 
> Another thing, she might not be used to happiness or stability. People from abusive backgrounds will often need the drama to be able to operate. They cannot handle norm,, and they need some rewiring and healthy coping mechanisms to learn to deal with stress. When things are going well, she may not know what she is suppose to do or behave, those things may be an alien concept to her.


ZEE and OLZEEE

Pardon the comparison here a bit crude.....

Think of it as an abused shelter dog that fears and mistrusts everything and everyone.

What does it take for this wounded animal to function in way to feel safe ??

Safety is a primal need to function Without that nothing else matters beyond food.

Time
Patience
Compassion
Empathy
Understanding
Caring
Love
Tough Love
Consistency
Friendship

55


----------



## Miss Independent

I feel sorry for your daughter. 

You can't reconcile...not when you're both unhealthy.


----------



## Chuck71

With no relatives there..... will she remain in jail until the 20th?


----------



## zillard

Chuck71 said:


> With no relatives there..... will she remain in jail until the 20th?


Yes. Unless she makes bail somehow. I'm done.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## just got it 55

zillard said:


> Yes. Unless she makes bail somehow. I'm done.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well I'm sorry to say my previous post sounds foolish and naive

Sorry ZEE and Mrs ZEE

55


----------



## zillard

That's not to say I don't drink. I do. Too much at times. It causes problems and I have been actively cutting back (have spoken to members offline about that). Yes, cutting back is not as good as cold turkey, I realize that. Have reconnected with old friends recently who don't drink to encourage myself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Sandie

zillard said:


> I told her to sleep in the guest room, went in the master and locked the door. *She kicked it in*, damaging the door, the wall, and my hand.





zillard said:


> *Here is the kicker.*


I read the first part of your story! Almost 1 yr ago you said "here is the kicker" and you were RIGHT!

:lol:


----------



## just got it 55

PBear said:


> Just as an FYI... I'm more concerned about your child than I am for either of you two. No offense intended. But if things don't work out again and she's living there, it's just going to be ugly. Well, uglier than if she lived in town but somewhere else.
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This always seemed to be a possibility 

55


----------



## TheGoodGuy

Oh man Z.. I hate that the drama is starting up again.. When you say multiple charges, what are we talking about here?


----------



## zillard

TheGoodGuy said:


> Oh man Z.. I hate that the drama is starting up again.. When you say multiple charges, what are we talking about here?


Domestic violence charges, additional due to child present, property damage stuff and alcohol related charges, drunk and disorderly, criminal mischief, etc
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Sandie

This story is now in the wrong section of the forum!


----------



## Pluto2

This just breaks my heart, Z.

Absolutely no R, at least not now. She has got to go to, and complete some therapy, if not just for her than for her daughter. You know she may be vindictive when she gets out. She's clearly not in a healthy place right now.

And you sir. You know what has to be done. Go on then. 
Go do it.


----------



## farsidejunky

Wow, Z. I was really hoping for a happy ending for you two. It sounds like she has some growing to do, but it also sounds like you have some growing to do as well brother. 

I think Happyman's suggestion of removing alcohol from the house would be a very good one for all of you. Quitting drinking was one of the most liberating things I've ever done. And I didn't even really think I had that big of a problem, nor did anybody around me. But it was just enough that I couldn't be entirely disciplined with it. So it had to go. 

I would hope you would look at it with the same scrutiny.


----------



## HobbesTheTiger

What are your plans for the immediate future?

How is DD holding up? Will you get her back into counselling, at least for a couple of sessions?

Best wishes


----------



## just got it 55

farsidejunky said:


> Wow, Z. I was really hoping for a happy ending for you two. It sounds like she has some growing to do, but it also sounds like you have some growing to do as well brother.
> 
> I think Happyman's suggestion of removing alcohol from the house would be a very good one for all of you. Quitting drinking was one of the most liberating things I've ever done. And I didn't even really think I had that big of a problem, nor did anybody around me. But it was just enough that I couldn't be entirely disciplined with it. So it had to go.
> 
> I would hope you would look at it with the same scrutiny.


From the outside looking in.......

It looks like the alcohol was the gasoline thrown on the fire.

I agree FSJ growing up is certainly something to be pointed out

ZEE you know all this...... you are better than this. I have seen you grow more than most everybody I have had interest in on TAM.

Just a little more will go a long way.

55


----------



## Ms. GP

Oh man!!! This is horrible. I received a pm from OLZ late last night. I really wish I had been awake to respond in time. I would have told her to go to bed, sober up, and not talk to Z until she had done both of those things. This absolutely breaks my heart!! I know she feels like everyone thinks she's a bad person, but they don't. I would have told her that I think Z probably needs to see evidence of self improvement over apologies and acts of contrition right now.

I don't think she's a bad person, but I think her foo issues and alcohol have led to some unconscious self destructive behaviors on her part. I PRAY this will be her rock bottom moment that she can build her new life on. But first, she has to ask for help. No one can make her. Z did the right thing by calling the cops, and hope he doesn't feel guilty about it. She may not think she has a problem with alcohol but I bet if she looks back at a lot of her problems somehow alcohol was almost always involved in some way. 

Refusing to deal with her for issues has led unconscious behaviors to come to the surface and alcohol is like throwing gas on the proverbial fire. All the individual counseling that everyone including Z has recommended does is shine a light on those behaviors so a person can recognize feelings when they are coming from an old place, so the person can choose new healthier behaviors instead.

I can't help but think, "there before the grace of God go I." I could have easily fallen into the same patterns of behaviors had I not gotten sober and gotten lots of help. This breaks my heart because in her pm she expressed how much she loved Z, and I believe her. I believe she loves him and their daughter as much as she can right now, but she really needs to get some help so she can become the happy healthy mother her daughter needs. I know it's scary, but I also know the peace, gratitude for life, and serenity that's on the other side.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

They both need to sober up and the needs to remain "dry".

No excuses from both spouses.

You trying to R.
You both have issues with emotions.
You have a kid in the house.

Alcohol in the mix is like using kerosene on the kindling.

And now look at the end result.......


----------



## turnera

Ol'lady Z said:


> Remorse is there. I do actually have a heart. Believe it or not. I am a human, my emotions fluctuate.
> 
> Drinks were consumed. We had a few little tiffs. I was irritated. Z is very hard to talk to when we are imbibing, especially when one of us has had more to drink than the other. We had some disagreements.
> 
> I poked my head out of the kitchen door to make sure all of the humans and animals were where they should be before I went to bed. I was quite surprised to find Z in the garage. I made a comment about how I was glad I checked, otherwise I would have locked him out. I added the word "again". I probably shouldn't have. It wasn't an intentional jab. It was completely innocent. I wasn't looking to throw jabs


Sorry, not buying it.

First, if you know you'll fight when you drink...be an adult and don't drink. After what you did, you are ON PROBATION. You don't seem to understand that.

You 'probably shouldn't have' added the word again? Well, as an adult, who supposedly is aware that she ripped her H's heart out and should be doing everything in her power to soothe his ailing heart, there isn't ROOM in your relationship for 'probably shouldn't have.' It couldn't have been 'completely innocent' because you wouldn't have SAID again if you weren't cognizant of the OTHER time you did it and what all went on with that. 

Therefore, it is IMPOSSIBLE for it to have been completely innocent.

Rather, it was an intentional power play. And there's no room for that in a reconciliation.


----------



## turnera

zillard said:


> Well, ship hit the fan tonight. Argument started, she told me she'd like me better if I wasn't breathing. I told her to sleep in the guest room, went in the master and locked the door. She kicked it in, damaging the door, the wall, and my hand. I called my brother to come pick up d9 and me. He couldn't come so sent my nephew. When he arrived she took d9 into the room I previously locked and told her she is going nowhere among other things. With nephew as witness, I told either she let's us both leave for the night or she does. She refused. I informed her I would call it in if necessary. She egged it on. I did. Cops came, assessed situation, and OLZ is now in jail with multiple charges until her court appearance on the 20th.
> 
> Telling your daughter her mom is in jail is not an easy thing. She seems to understand though. I told her it is OK to get angry, but kicking, screaming, and breaking things is not OK. "Yeah, I saw the door", d said.
> 
> Wish me luck.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wow. I'm so sorry.


----------



## larry.gray

Now that the legal system is involved, you have even more reason to quit cold turkey.

A court ordered evaluation for parental fitness is in your future. Part of the past is now an issue with drinking. Yes, you were the less drunk one, but you weren't sober. Your goal is now to be the stable, reliable parent. Your daughter deserves that.

I'll further add: if you've EVER had a drunken fight, don't drink. Some people can get away with binge drinking: they are called happy drunks. As long as they don't drive, happy drunks face few long term problems with OCCASIONALLY binge drinking. If you fight when drunk, you're not a happy drunk.


----------



## Chuck71

I really hate to see this happen. The struggles, ups and downs... still had

feeling you would make it. The police was the proper way to go. XW had outbursts

like this back before DDay 2012. Z you have a great support network, XW doesn't 

but that gave her no right to have the outburst as you described. This may be the 

death blow for the two of you. If XW would agree to stop drinking and you do the same

maybe.... the trees will not block the road. XW needs some form of IC.... and AA.

Maybe starting MC would be some form of a start. XW should realize... if she doesn't

think this is rock bottom.... this R may be as good as dead. Ask her... won't hurt.

Say if you won't do it for me, do it for D9. All three of you are in my thoughts and prayers.


----------



## Colonel Angus

As ol' Colonel Angus always says "It's best to let sleeping beavers lie".



If I overstayed my welcome, just tap me on the head.


----------



## jld

Colonel Angus said:


> As ol' Colonel Angus always says "It's best to let sleeping beavers lie".


What does this mean, in the context of this thread?


----------



## larry.gray

jld said:


> What does this mean, in the context of this thread?


The poster isn't a person, but a computer putting a bunch of posts on the forum.

It will come back later to replace all of the posts with either an advertisement or a picture link that is harvesting people's IP and user names (usually the picture is an emoticon).

I've considered offering to be a moderator solely to bonk such posters on the head.


----------



## Openminded

I'm very sorry, Z. 

I hope things work out for you.


----------



## Colonel Angus

jld said:


> What does this mean, in the context of this thread?


It simply means dear lady, for the OP to leave the past, his ex-wife, alone and to move on with his life. Nothing more.


----------



## Lifescript

I'm very sorry to read this Z. 

I hope things work out best for you and your daughter. 

What was the catalyst for this? Would she have acted that way if no alcohol was involved? 

I hope she gets help. 

Take care bro.


----------



## Tron

Lifescript said:


> I'm very sorry to read this Z.
> 
> I hope things work out best for you and your daughter.
> 
> What was the catalyst for this? Would she have acted that way if no alcohol was involved?
> 
> I hope she gets help.
> 
> Take care bro.


I feel exactly the same Script.

When they were going through D, OLZ seemed to have had issues showing up for work, kid exchange and MC and I often wondered if she may have had some chemical dependency problems. 

Too much coincidence now that their lives explode into crazy when's she/they go down that road.

Feeling very sad at the moment.

Take care Z. And OLZ too. Ugh.


----------



## Chuck71

I'm just going to throw this out there. Even if both of you agree to lay down

the bottle, would you consider her moving out? Somewhere very close, even 

offer to help her with moving. XW is at a point where being on her own will

either force her to face her demons or she will be absorbed back into the abyss.

If things stay as they are, she has D9, probably the only guy she has ever loved

and free reign to drink and have anger dumps. Think of a bird pushing the young

from the nest. You fly.... or you don't. Cruel..... no, it was this way in my grand

parents day (pre WW2). Maybe it's time to take off the training wheels. I feel Z,

you would be able to experience more growth if the two of you did not live together.

XW needs this too. Date? Why not.... court..... why not? Have dates where D9 is 

involved too. If both of you focus more on yourself and the issues, the rekindling of

the passion you had many years ago has a better chance of resurfacing. You could

have a week you, week XW with D9. I don't have children but I can feel solid in saying,

if a few more years D9 will be a teen and from 13-17 it is a crucial time in a girl's life.

If she sees mom n dad constantly bickering, screaming and destroying things.... she

will be more prone to date men who offer that type of life. Then....that's where the 

real problems start...


----------



## Ceegee

Perspective. From the outside in as I'm not involved in this stuff much anymore. 

Z, you know I care about you and your situation. Yours is one of a few threads I still follow. 

You share as much blame in the current situation as she does by letting this get too far too fast. 

OLZ needs to own her mistakes to move forward for sure. 

You should have known better.


----------



## turnera

I have to agree. There's a reason we tell people not to date for a long time after a divorce. You have a LOT of headwork to do once you're divorced. What's the rule, one month for every year of marriage?

You two chose COMFORT and CONVENIENCE without doing the headwork to figure out what that meant. So both of you just kept pushing the same old buttons you always pushed.

Therapy's there for a reason. They are experts at fixing people, or at least showing people how to fix themselves. That needs to come first.


----------



## happy as a clam

I think Z said he is "done".

Either way, he and his ex need to go to AA/Al-anon (you're no saint in this Z...) You contributed to this hot mess drinking debacle. All I can say is your poor, poor daughter. Throwing her mom in the slammer (when YOU were half lit too) is no answer.

If it makes you feel good while your wife is stuck in jail (while you contributed by drinking a half flask of whiskey) then, oh well? What can any of us say?

Do the right thing. Go bail your child's mother out of jail... Then split from her.

You two are toxic together and your daughter is paying a hefty price.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Yes, I have my share of blame for the current situation. Yes, comfort and convenience played a part in the decision to attempt R. Yes, we are toxic together and it has/is affecting our daughter. That simply cannot continue. Not just for d's sake, for all of ours. We can't keep doing this to her, each other, and ourselves. 

She was bailed out later that day, though not by me. She's not allowed on premises, I believe until her court day. I have gathered belongings for her upon request and made d9 available for her to visit at my parents house.

FWIW, I did call the cops, as I said I would. I didn't ask them to arrest her. I did tell them I did not agree with some charges, and I did tell them I was also drinking, more than once. After talking to both of us separately they said it was cut and dry. 

Does her being arrested make me feel good? That's quite an assumption.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tom67

zillard said:


> Yes, I have my share of blame for the current situation. Yes, comfort and convenience played a part in the decision to attempt R. Yes, we are toxic together and it has/is affecting our daughter. That simply cannot continue. Not just for d's sake, for all of ours. We can't keep doing this to her, each other, and ourselves.
> 
> She was bailed out later that day, though not by me. She's not allowed on premises, I believe until her court day. I have gathered belongings for her upon request and made d9 available for her to visit at my parents house.
> 
> FWIW, I did call the cops, as I said I would. I didn't ask them to arrest her. I did tell them I did not agree with some charges, and I did tell them I was also drinking, more than once. After talking to both of us separately they said it was cut and dry.
> 
> Does her being arrested make me feel good? That's quite an assumption.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Z man yes you are not blameless but being a guy you did what you had to do.
Listen if her bail is not that crazy pay it contingent that she enters an inpatient program.
If she doesn't protect yourself.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

happy as a clam said:


> I think Z said he is "done".
> 
> Either way, he and his ex need to go to AA/Al-anon (you're no saint in this Z...) You contributed to this hot mess drinking debacle. All I can say is your poor, poor daughter. Throwing her mom in the slammer (when YOU were half lit too) is no answer.
> 
> If it makes you feel good while your wife is stuck in jail (while you contributed by drinking a half flask of whiskey) then, oh well? What can any of us say?
> 
> Do the right thing. Go bail your child's mother out of jail... Then split from her.
> 
> You two are toxic together and your daughter is paying a hefty price.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, if a man had done what OLZ had done, most of the women here would have applauded calling the cops.

Domestic abuse is domestic abuse, drunken or whatever. Z is not to blame for OLZ's behavior, even if he also had something to drink. He wasn't being abusive.

(I wish I had called the cops on my crazy ex when she went off in a similar fashion. One of the best things in life is seeing entitled people suffer the consequences of their crappy behavior.)

I do agree, though, that the relationship is toxic. The individual dysfunction was never addressed in therapy, and as we all know, we can't expect to have healthy relationships with dysfunctional people.

Walk your path, Z. I think you learned from this.


----------



## happy as a clam

ThreeStrikes said:


> Well, if a man had done what OLZ had done, most of the women here would have applauded calling the cops.
> 
> Domestic abuse is domestic abuse, drunken or whatever. Z is not to blame for OLZ's behavior, even if he also had something to drink. He wasn't being abusive.


I agree and I don't blame him a bit for calling the police. I should have worded it better, but my ire was directed at his comment that she would be in jail until the 20th and he had no plans to bail her out.

I just think it's really, really detrimental on the daughter to leave her mother in jail. 

As it turns out, apparently someone else posted her bond.


----------



## Pluto2

happy as a clam said:


> I agree and I don't blame him a bit for calling the police. I should have worded it better, but my ire was directed at his comment that she would be in jail until the 20th and he had no plans to bail her out.
> 
> I just think it's really, really detrimental on the daughter to leave her mother in jail.
> 
> As it turns out, apparently someone else posted her bond.


While its a moot point, I'm going to respectfully disagree with you on this one. The really detrimental impact on DD is having a parent who behaves so inappropriately that the police needed to be called and had grounds to arrest her.

I'm a much bigger fan of teaching kids that actions have consequences. And if a wife had to call the cops on a drunken abusive husband I doubt anyone would recommend that she bail him out. In fact, every domestic violence shelter would caution her not to step in. Of course Z can take care of himself, I just think he made the right call.


----------



## happy as a clam

Pluto2 said:


> While its a moot point, I'm going to respectfully disagree with you on this one. The really detrimental impact on DD is having a parent who behaves so inappropriately that the police needed to be called and had grounds to arrest her.


Agree to disagree. 

If z's daughter was 14, 15 or 16, I might agree. But she is only 9. And for a 9-year-old, knowing "Mommy is in jail" is a difficult thing to process.

But I agree it's a moot point anyway


----------



## Lifescript

I agree. 

Z did the right thing. 

They were both drunk but SHE not him was the one that went overboard and became violent/abusive so there are consequences to pay for that. Truth is adding alcohol to the mix was never going to end well. I think back to when my ex got violent. Worse thing she did was slam some chairs to the floor and storm out of the house. Had she been drinking who knows what would have happened. 

Z ... we live and we learn. I'm sure you will be ok. Don't beat yourself up. You tried for your daughter to have her family again and for comfort. I know what is like. Just move on and don't look back this time. 

You got this man.


----------



## hope4family

Had something happen to me very very similar couple years ago with a close family member. Even though I was stopping domestic abuse, until the police got involved.

Thanks to it, I continue to go to a counselor till this day. I hope you and Ol lady z use this moment as a springboard to working on yourself.


----------



## Openminded

My concern when you started this thread was the potential fallout to your daughter. You and your ex-wife have major problems, obviously, and your daughter had already been through a lot so I cringed when I read you were going to R. But as cynical as I was about your chance of success, I never imagined this. 

Your daughter is nine years old -- old enough to remember this the rest of her life. And to potentially repeat it in her own marriage(s). All of you need some serious help but the innocent one in all of this especially needs it. I hope you will make sure she gets it.


----------



## Sandie

happy as a clam said:


> I think Z said he is "done".
> 
> Either way, he and his ex need to go to AA/Al-anon (you're no saint in this Z...) You contributed to this hot mess drinking debacle. All I can say is your poor, poor daughter. Throwing her mom in the slammer (when YOU were half lit too) is no answer.
> 
> If it makes you feel good while your wife is stuck in jail (while you contributed by drinking a half flask of whiskey) then, oh well? What can any of us say?
> 
> Do the right thing. Go bail your child's mother out of jail... Then split from her.
> 
> You two are toxic together and your daughter is paying a hefty price.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Truer words have never been spoken!

Well they might have been but it's an expression!


----------



## zillard

happy as a clam said:


> I just think it's really, really detrimental on the daughter to leave her *father* in jail.


I'm curious if people would still agree after my small text change?



Pluto2 said:


> if a wife had to call the cops on a drunken abusive husband I doubt anyone would recommend that she bail him out. In fact, every domestic violence shelter would caution her not to step in.


I agree. That's why the police were required to leave brochures with me, even though they were for women's shelters. Why the female dispatch asked me to put OLZ on the phone when I called (the deputies were shocked that happened). Also why it's possible for me to be charged if I intentionally violate the protective order that was placed on her, or fail to report a violation.


----------



## Ceegee

Toxic


----------



## tom67

zillard said:


> I'm curious if people would still agree after my small text change?
> 
> 
> 
> I agree. That's why the police were required to leave brochures with me, even though they were for women's shelters. Why the female dispatch asked me to put OLZ on the phone when I called (the deputies were shocked that happened). Also why it's possible for me to be charged if I intentionally violate the protective order that was placed on her, or fail to report a violation.


:iagree::iagree:
Just like this guy http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...n/260826-my-ex-wife-married-sex-offender.html


----------



## farsidejunky

zillard said:


> I'm curious if people would still agree after my small text change?
> 
> 
> 
> I agree. That's why the police were required to leave brochures with me, even though they were for women's shelters. Why the female dispatch asked me to put OLZ on the phone when I called (the deputies were shocked that happened). Also why it's possible for me to be charged if I intentionally violate the protective order that was placed on her, or fail to report a violation.


Agree, but...

Don't let the comments take you off task. You know better than most that you have work to do.


----------



## zillard

Absolutely.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## vi_bride04

Openminded said:


> Your daughter is nine years old -- old enough to remember this the rest of her life. And to potentially repeat it in her own marriage(s). All of you need some serious help but the innocent one in all of this especially needs it. I hope you will make sure she gets it.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## TheGoodGuy

Z, any updates on your situation? I have followed you from the beginning and I really admire you, and am invested in your situation. How's D doing? How are you?


----------



## Pluto2

TheGoodGuy said:


> Z, any updates on your situation? I have followed you from the beginning and I really admire you, and am invested in your situation. How's D doing? How are you?


:iagree:
Hope you and DD are coping. Sending good vibes out west.


----------



## jr92gp

Very sad news. Hoping everyone involved comes out the other side doing well.


----------



## Dedicated2Her

I have watched your threads from start to finish, z. I haven't posted much, but I always was concerned this would happen.

I'm sorry to hear it, but the red flags have always been there.


----------



## happy as a clam

zillard said:


> I'm curious if people would still agree after my small text change?


Honestly?

No, it wouldn't change my opinion one iota whether Mommy left Daddy in jail or Daddy left Mommy in jail.

To a child, this is almost incomprehensible. Especially when BOTH parents were drinking and BOTH contributed to the toxic fallout that night.

I agree that the police should have been called to break up the heated situation. And likely, someone had to go to jail.

My beef was with the comment that Wife would be left in jail for weeks with no bail. It would have been the same if Husband was left in jail for weeks with no bail.

The 9 year old daughter is way too young to "get" this...


----------



## zillard

happy as a clam said:


> Honestly?
> 
> No, it wouldn't change my opinion one iota whether Mommy left Daddy in jail or Daddy left Mommy in jail.
> 
> To a child, this is almost incomprehensible. Especially when BOTH parents were drinking and BOTH contributed to the toxic fallout that night.
> 
> I agree that the police should have been called to break up the heated situation. And likely, someone had to go to jail.
> 
> My beef was with the comment that Wife would be left in jail for weeks with no bail. It would have been the same if Husband was left in jail for weeks with no bail.
> 
> The 9 year old daughter is way too young to "get" this...


I really do appreciate the concern for D9, and understand what you are saying. I don't fully agree, however. 

Either parent getting arrested is very difficult for a child to understand. Bail or no bail (concepts foreign to a child) are not things discussed with D9. Absence is understood, if not the reasons for it. Bail does not necessarily equal the return home of the beloved parent, especially in cases involving no-contact orders and breakups. 

I strongly feel that if the actions of one partner leaves the other feeling that a call to the authorities is necessary, it is not that person's responsibility to pay bail - children or not. Nor is the one responsible for the actions of the other, drinking/arguing or not. 

I am fully responsible for any mistreatment of others, and expect others to be fully accountable for any mistreatment of me. 

I think that you are saying it would've been a good thing for me to do, for D's sake, regardless of responsibility to the other parent. That may be true. However I don't think that refusing to do so was a bad thing. In a similar circumstance, you may have chosen a different path. That is ok and I respect your views.


----------



## Pam

I think we all have to realize that you are the one who has "stayed the course" for your daughter, all along. You have been the one who was always there, could be counted on, and made your love for her very open. Your ex-wife, not so much. Actually, not at all. If one parent or the other has to be absent, it's better that her mother is.

I'm elderly, but I've been around the block more than once and I have seen a lot of situations. I've never been accused of being non-opinionated.


----------



## hope4family

Pam said:


> I think we all have to realize that you are the one who has "stayed the course" for your daughter, all along. You have been the one who was always there, could be counted on, and made your love for her very open. Your ex-wife, not so much. Actually, not at all. If one parent or the other has to be absent, it's better that her mother is.
> 
> I'm elderly, but I've been around the block more than once and I have seen a lot of situations. I've never been accused of being non-opinionated.


Agreed. Z has been as consistent as anyone in D life. Safe to say, the most consistent. 

People make mistakes. They shouldn't be given license from consequences, but they should be allowed to make amends with the gravity of mistakes they make. 

I have sat in the chair, still am. It is hard.


----------



## Chuck71

Time...... the immortal equalizer. Maybe down the road.... who knows.

Co-parent as best as both can. D9 is always the nominal factor.

I want what is best for you Z. OLZ may not believe it but I want the best for her too.

I wanted a love child with the lead singer of Vixen back in the day..... see how that worked out


----------



## zillard

Pam said:


> I think we all have to realize that you are the one who has "stayed the course" for your daughter, all along. You have been the one who was always there, could be counted on, and made your love for her very open. Your ex-wife, not so much. Actually, not at all. If one parent or the other has to be absent, it's better that her mother is.
> 
> I'm elderly, but I've been around the block more than once and I have seen a lot of situations. I've never been accused of being non-opinionated.


Not at all!? That certainly is opinionated, and too harsh. I completely disagree with that and don't see it as helpful at all.

One parent doesn't have to be absent (even with protective order they are spending time together) and I have no desire for her to be absent from D's life. Separate living quarters now (OLZ & I), yes. Good, healthy co-parenting is the goal. That certainly is attainable, and I'm hopeful.


----------



## Chuck71

If OLZ had her own thread, I would say.... be a great mother, a great person

Never stop learning.... because the one person I promise who would notice..... is Z.

Bet your farm and your kid's farm


----------



## 06Daddio08

zillard said:


> Not at all!? That certainly is opinionated, and too harsh. I completely disagree with that and don't see it as helpful at all.
> 
> One parent doesn't have to be absent (even with protective order they are spending time together) and I have no desire for her to be absent from D's life. Separate living quarters now (OLZ & I), yes. Good, healthy co-parenting is the goal. That certainly is attainable, and I'm hopeful.


Once the dust settles between the two of you, I don't see why a 50/50 custody agreement and co-parenting arrangement couldn't be established in a healthy manner.

Sifting through everything that's lead up to this point will test your boundaries without a doubt. Which means keeping your thoughts to yourself, as in off of here, due to the fact your ex can read them is probably for the best. Works the other way around as well.

It's best that you both take responsibility for not only your actions, but your feelings as well. You're not always going to agree on everything, but as long as your daughter is taken care of, everything else can literally be walked away on when you aren't trying to reconcile.

Don't want to talk to one another? Great, don't. I think some actual single time for the both of you will be good.


----------



## Pam

Zillard, you totally misread what I said; you missed the IF. IF one parent had to be absent, in this case it should not be you. I've followed you from day one, and you have stated just how involved your ex has been in your daughter's life.


----------



## Ceegee

Pam said:


> Zillard, you totally misread what I said; you missed the IF. IF one parent had to be absent, in this case it should not be you. I've followed you from day one, and you have stated just how involved your ex has been in your daughter's life.



She doesn't know how to be. 

Maybe she wants to. Maybe she thinks she should but doesn't know how. At least not without Z. 

I think she can connect with D8 just fine but lacks confidence. She feels she needs Z because he is so connected to D8. 

She needs to just appreciate that and connect in her own way.


----------



## bandit.45

I went back through all of Zillards past threads, about OLZ's affair, their divorce, their dating again, now this sh!t...

Two people who have a rudderless love for each other. A passionate dysfunctional love. Syd and Nancy sans heroin. Z, do you realize the damage this relationship is doing to your daughter? 

I think maybe you understand on a fundamental level, but kids suffer from PTSD too, and making your child be a witness to violence in the home is, well.....its fvcked up pal. 

You and OLZ need to put this dog down, and never dig up the corpse again. Stay divorced, go to counseling individually and each of you get your acts together and start being healthy co parents to your kid. You have a lot of damage repair to do for your daughter. 

...


----------



## zillard

On it. 

D9 said she'd like to see her "feelings doctor" again (what a great kid). Scheduled for midweek (1st session sans D9).


----------



## 3Xnocharm

I'm sorry to read what has transpired. My gut told me from the beginning that this R wasnt a good idea, I am sorry to see that it was right. Thinking of you, Z.


----------



## Ceegee

3Xnocharm said:


> I'm sorry to read what has transpired. My gut told me from the beginning that this R wasnt a good idea, I am sorry to see that it was right. Thinking of you, Z.



I can't blame Z for trying. I would have done the same. 

Doing it in full view of D9 is a different story.


----------



## TheGoodGuy

Z's story mirrored mine in a lot of ways (let's say 70%).. It was the last 30% that made my life VERY different and I could never have tried again with D9s mother. I rooted for them because I wish my daughter had gotten the same chance to have a healthy mother, but at the same time feared that old ways would return. I still want the best for these people no matter the outcome.


----------



## zillard

Ceegee said:


> I can't blame Z for trying. I would have done the same.
> 
> Doing it in full view of D9 is a different story.


Obviously something I needed to learn. 

“Never feel shame for trying and failing for he who has never failed is he who has never tried.”
― Og Mandino


----------



## Ms. GP

Z, 
Watch out for the wooing you back phase without her having done any actual work on herself. Hold her feet to the fire. It's what's best for everyone involved including her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Quick update. 

X has found place to rent and plans to stay in area long term. I think this is great for her and D9.

Temporary protective order still in place. I've gathered her belongings and delivered to her new address when she was out. 

D9 in counseling once a week and I believe it's helpful. 

X and D9 seeing each other regularly. We've been able to work out a schedule that is working well so far (every other weekend + a couple after school to evening visits each week).


----------



## jr92gp

I suppose there is a blessing hidden in all of this: D9 has a mother who is close and from what I see is making an effort to be in her life.


----------



## Chuck71

Z how are you handling the drop offs and pick ups?


----------



## zillard

Chuck71 said:


> Z how are you handling the drop offs and pick ups?


She's renting a place from my sister, who is moving soonish due to military husband getting stationed elsewhere but wants to keep her house. They are there together for now, which makes the pickups/dropoffs much less of a problem than they could be with the protective order.

I drop D off when she's gone but sis is home. Then she goes to the store while I do pickup. 

Unequal transportation split for now, but once order is lifted will likely revert to method used in AZ. I drop off for mom time and she drops off for dad time. Child psychs stress importance of this to avoid any possible stress of one parent "taking" child from other. Dropoffs are preferable to pickups, in other words. Unless pickups are done from neutral location like school, etc. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Fact that X is in sis' place is helpful for D (though a bit weird for me and likely for X as well). It's already a familiar and comfortable home so transition is much less harsh.

Good news. IC and D9 decided yesterday that she's ready for every other week instead of weekly. Of course she reinforced to D that if she ever feels need to talk or see her, we will make it happen.


----------



## Chuck71

Keep in mind.... you will most likely see OLZ "at her best" kind of like, first time you n her ever went out.

You learned, stick to your guns. Bandit was right in burying the dog. But I want to leave something

on the table. Z... in your mind, did you and her have a real R? I don't think you did,

I think you know why. Never... ever count on it but... if she got her schit together in a few years

and proved it beyond a shadow of a doubt for..... let's say a year

would you.......? Just hypothetical.... definitely a long shot.

Would your consideration be reflected by Ds age at the time?

If she were 14-15.... she would know the score..... just throwing this out there


----------



## zillard

Honestly, I can't even consider it right now if I want to remain level.


----------



## Chuck71

Of course.... it has a snowball's chance in he!! of happening anyway.... if it did... it would be

2020..... too far along to consider.


----------



## turnera

Z, what matters most right now is your child. You adults can fix your stuff later. Just do whatever helps your child recover best and fastest. Because what happens in a child's life stays with them for LIFE.


----------



## Pluto2

Chuck71 said:


> Keep in mind.... you will most likely see OLZ "at her best" kind of like, first time you n her ever went out.
> 
> You learned, stick to your guns. Bandit was right in burying the dog. But I want to leave something
> 
> on the table. Z... in your mind, did you and her have a real R? I don't think you did,
> 
> I think you know why. Never... ever count on it but... if she got her schit together in a few years
> 
> and proved it beyond a shadow of a doubt for..... let's say a year
> 
> would you.......? Just hypothetical.... definitely a long shot.
> 
> Would your consideration be reflected by Ds age at the time?
> 
> If she were 14-15.... she would know the score..... just throwing this out there


Chuck, that's like someone asking me if my ex WASN'T an emotionally/physically abusive serial cheater would I consider going back to him.
Its always possible for people to change, but its not right for someone else to live their life in the hopes that someone else will change.


----------



## Chuck71

Hence the snowball's chance in Death Valley


----------



## Ol'lady Z

In the words of Kurt Vonnegut: "So it goes". Sh!t happens. Things get ugly. People you think you love don't reciprocate that feeling. No matter how hard you try. It's a thing. You deal with it. I'll deal with it. I thought Z and I had that spark. We don't. So it goes. We still made the greatest human I've even known. And I had the honor of cooking her up. That's all I could ever ask for.


----------



## farsidejunky

Ol'lady Z said:


> In the words of Kurt Vonnegut: "So it goes". Sh!t happens. Things get ugly. People you think you love don't reciprocate that feeling. No matter how hard you try. It's a thing. You deal with it. I'll deal with it. I thought Z and I had that spark. We don't. So it goes. We still made the greatest human I've even known. And I had the honor of cooking her up. That's all I could ever ask for.


Welcome back, OLZ.

I am not saying this cynically, but honestly, and with great concern: I hope like crazy that you are getting the help you need to be as amazing for your daughter as she is for you. 

I have prayed and continue to pray for all of you.


----------



## Pluto2

Ol'lady Z said:


> In the words of Kurt Vonnegut: "So it goes". Sh!t happens. Things get ugly. People you think you love don't reciprocate that feeling. No matter how hard you try. It's a thing. You deal with it. I'll deal with it. I thought Z and I had that spark. We don't. So it goes. We still made the greatest human I've even known. And I had the honor of cooking her up. That's all I could ever ask for.


This has got to be hard for you, too.

Focus on that "greatest human" and what she truly needs.
Focus on yourself, and becoming the greatest human you can.

The rest of life will continue to happen.


----------



## turnera

And maybe stay away from men for a year or two while you figure yourself out.


----------



## Fenris

And both of you should stay away from the adult type beverages. Nothing good ever came from getting drunked up.


----------



## Chuck71

Not sure where Z will continue posting at, here or LaD..... but I would like to see OLZ begin a thread in LaD.

Contrary to some beliefs, not everyone dislikes her.

Most would want to hear her story, how she is doing, etc.

Mature people find it difficult to dislike people, they do not know.

Well...... Queen Lizard was an exception.....


----------



## Tron

Chuck71 said:


> Not sure where Z will continue posting at, here or LaD..... but I would like to see OLZ begin a thread in LaD.
> 
> Contrary to some beliefs, not everyone dislikes her.
> 
> Most would want to hear her story, how she is doing, etc.
> 
> Mature people find it difficult to dislike people, they do not know.
> 
> Well...... Queen Lizard was an exception.....


:iagree:

Having a rough time of it, no doubt. If you do what Chuck suggests OLZ, you may find support where you don't expect it.


----------



## turnera

What's LaD?


----------



## zillard

turnera said:


> What's LaD?


Life After Divorce
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ceegee

Ol'lady Z said:


> In the words of Kurt Vonnegut: "So it goes". Sh!t happens. Things get ugly. People you think you love don't reciprocate that feeling. No matter how hard you try. It's a thing. You deal with it. I'll deal with it. I thought Z and I had that spark. We don't. So it goes. We still made the greatest human I've even known. And I had the honor of cooking her up. That's all I could ever ask for.



You have the spark OlZ. 

It's the oxygen that's f'd up. 

I think it would be totally cool if you started your own thread - and if you do, start from the beginning. 

I promise you you'd get a lot of input. 

If you have enough posts put it in the private section.


----------



## just got it 55

OLZ.......Do it

55


----------



## hope4family

farsidejunky said:


> Welcome back, OLZ.
> 
> I am not saying this cynically, but honestly, and with great concern: I hope like crazy that you are getting the help you need to be as amazing for your daughter as she is for you.
> 
> I have prayed and continue to pray for all of you.


So I just kinda want to add on. 

My insight and experience in life, taught me that while a single act can be bad. It does not always fully express the totality of who they are, and the complicated mess that comes with it.

Point being. I personally support any effort of an individual to get better, as long as it is done wholeheartedly. There is still time.


----------



## Tron

Hello Z,

How are things going?

It has been a while. Were you and OLZ able to take care of the DV and legal issues?


----------



## zillard

Tron said:


> Hello Z,
> 
> How are things going?
> 
> It has been a while. Were you and OLZ able to take care of the DV and legal issues?


Hi!

Still in the process. Protective order still in place until next court date near EOM. I'll leave it to her to give more details about that if she wishes. 

AZ divorce decree and parenting plan (foreign order) has been filed here so we can next file a modified plan more suitable for close proximity co-parenting. Currently proceeding with co-parenting as it will be in the new plan and, IMO, it has been working out well. At least for myself and D. Have not heard any different from her.

Child psych gave D the go ahead to stop coming if she's comfortable with that, but I'm still taking her twice a month for at least another month or two. Unless, of course, D herself tells me she's done. Lately she has been excited to go, anxious to tell the IC about fun stuff she's been doing or has planned with me or her mom, so that's a good sign. She's awesome and enjoying her summer, adjusting well.


----------



## Tron

You guys planning a switch to a 50/50 model for custody?


----------



## zillard

Tron said:


> You guys planning a switch to a 50/50 model for custody?


Closer to that. With her established school and friends a block away, and permanent home vs rental, it makes sense that this would be her primary residence. But as far as D is concerned she'll have two homes. Alternating holidays, every other weekend and two midweeks with mom but sleep here to walk to school in the AM. Half summer with each, though likely will be back and forth a bit due to work.


----------



## Lifescript

zillard said:


> Closer to that. With her established school and friends a block away, and permanent home vs rental, it makes sense that this would be her primary residence. But as far as D is concerned she'll have two homes. Alternating holidays, every other weekend and two midweeks with mom but sleep here to walk to school in the AM. Half summer with each, though likely will be back and forth a bit due to work.


This is good for your daughter. Having her mom in her life is huge. Now that things didn't work out between you two coparenting effectively should be top priority.


----------



## zillard

Lifescript said:


> This is good for your daughter. Having her mom in her life is huge. Now that things didn't work out between you two coparenting effectively should be top priority.


It is very good for her. I completely agree. 

Having not told D about IC's all clear, D came to that conclusion on her own yesterday. With a session scheduled for yesterday afternoon, D woke up, came downstairs, and told me she feels that after the session she doesn't need anymore. Said they haven't had much to talk about and saw that as a sign. 

So she had her last one. IC said her communication is great and many children are too worried to tell their parents they think they're done. Having spoken up about wanting to go again in the first place, and now this, shows that we can trust in her to communicate that need again in the future, should it arise again. 

Very proud of the little champ!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lifescript

Awesome man. 

Your D sound so smart and mature. It's a great thing. My son has surprised me sometimes with things he's said and how he's coped with everything.


----------



## TheGoodGuy

Good to hear Z, thanks for the update.


----------



## Uptown

Zillard, I want to join GoodGuy in thanking you for the update. I'm glad to hear you and your daughter are both doing so well. Also, I want to take this opportunity to comment on something you said over two years ago.
Quote:



> _I'm still unsure if she is full-fledged BPD or just learned behavior from her BPD/NPD mother (no doubt there). I've read that many children of BPD mothers can exhibit much of the same behavior but be higher functioning.[Your 2/28/13 post.]_


 Zillard, I believe you are describing a distinction without a difference. By definition, BPD is simply a group of behavioral traits. Hence, regardless of where a person obtained those traits (e.g., from the mother through learned behavior or genetics), you are seeing BPD behavior whenever a person is exhibiting BPD traits. And, as you already know, we all exhibit such traits. Whenever these traits are very strong and persistent around loved ones, a person is said to have full-blown BPD -- regardless of whether that person is able to function well around people who do not draw emotionally close to her.

As to whether your exW has "full-fledged BPD," I agree that only a professional can make that determination. Yet, having full-blown BPD cannot be ruled out by her being "higher functioning," as you apparently read somewhere. On the contrary, the vast majority of full-blown BPDers are "high functioning," which means they generally interact very well with casual friends, business associates, and total strangers. The reason they are able to do so is that none of those people pose a threat to the BPDer's two great fears: abandonment and engulfment. There is no close relationship to be abandoned and no intimacy to cause the suffocating feeling of engulfment.

Randi Kreger -- author of the _Stop Walking on Eggshells _book you read -- explains that the conventional view of BPDers described in clinical studies accurately describes only a small portion of BPDers, i.e., those who are so low functioning and miserable that they willingly seek therapy or admit themselves to the psychiatric unit of a local hospital. These are the BPDers that all BPD clinical studies have been based on. The result is that, for nearly three decades, the psychiatric community mistakenly believed that BPDers only constitute 1.5 to 2 percent of the population. 

However, a recent large-scale study of 35,000 American adults found that the prevalence of full-blown BPD is 6 percent -- 3 to 4 times larger than the older figures. That study, funded by NIMH, indicates that the vast majority of BPDers (i.e., about 2/3 to 3/4) are high functioning people who satisfy the diagnostic criteria but are "invisible" to the profession because they don't seek therapy and rarely end up in a hospital ER.

I mention this distinction between _conventional _(low functioning) BPDers and _invisible_ (high functioning) BPDers because it is rare for anyone to date a LF BPDer for very long, much less marry that person. This means that, when the spouse or long term partner of a BPDer comes here to TAM for help, he/she almost certainly is dealing with a HF BPDer who likely is able to love (albeit immaturely) and who exhibits little or none of the offensive behaviors around work colleagues, casual friends, or strangers. On this issue, Kreger writes:



I call these higher-functioning, acting out BPs the "invisible BP" because they are invisible to the mental health profession (but not to everyone else). They may be miserable somewhere in their souls, but to most people they come off as very charming people who have friends and do well at their job. In private, however, they make family members miserable by their intense and pervasive blaming, false accusations, irrational jealously, and verbal and emotional abuse.... See Kreger's "The Great Divide" at Psychology Today.
We don’t know anything at all about people with the required five DSM traits who don’t seek help. We have no studies whatsoever. All we can do is observe. Now, what I wrote is the product of my 12 or so years of observation. That doesn’t make it “right;” you may have observed something completely different. Researchers have published countless ways to subdivide just the Conventional types, how can we all come to one way to describe those who don’t seek treatment? See Kreger's 9/26/09 post.


----------



## bandit.45

Ol'lady Z said:


> In the words of Kurt Vonnegut: "So it goes". Sh!t happens. Things get ugly. People you think you love don't reciprocate that feeling. No matter how hard you try. It's a thing. You deal with it. I'll deal with it. I thought Z and I had that spark. We don't. So it goes. We still made the greatest human I've even known. And I had the honor of cooking her up. That's all I could ever ask for.


Biggest cop out I ever heard. Zillard does love you. But your love for your dysfunction is greater than your love for him. 

Load of crap....


----------



## Tron

bandit.45 said:


> Biggest cop out I ever heard. Zillard does love you. But your love for your dysfunction is greater than your love for him.
> 
> Load of crap....


That is extremely harsh and insensitive, especially if you are dealing with someone who has PTSD or a PD. 

This is not as one-sided as you might believe. Her anger doesn't exist in a vacuum. They both say things in the heat of the moment they shouldn't say, they both know how to push each other's buttons and do it. The responsibility for this dysfunction falls on both. 

I think they love each other and there is a 'spark'. But if they are both having difficulty controlling their emotions around each other, especially their anger, then it is best that they live apart and get a handle on that, co-parent and make their peace that way. Better for them and better for D.


----------



## zillard

Tron said:


> This is not as one-sided as you might believe. Her anger doesn't exist in a vacuum. They both say things in the heat of the moment they shouldn't say, they both know how to push each other's buttons and do it. The responsibility for this dysfunction falls on both.
> 
> I think they love each other and there is a 'spark'. But if they are both having difficulty controlling their emotions around each other, especially their anger, then it is best that they live apart and get a handle on that, co-parent and make their peace that way. Better for them and better for D.


I agree with most of this. What you've said about me is spot on. *Sometimes* her anger has nothing to do with me though, or the topic of ptsd and PDs wouldn't ever come up. When that happened, I dealt with it poorly, certainly, which didn't help. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

zillard said:


> I agree with most of this. What you've said about me is spot on. *Sometimes* her anger has nothing to do with me though, or the topic of ptsd and PDs wouldn't ever come up. When that happened,* I dealt with it poorly, certainly, which didn't help.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If you were given a second chance with those moments you handled poorly, zillard, what would you do differently?


----------



## zillard

jld said:


> If you were given a second chance with those moments you handled poorly, zillard, what would you do differently?


Resist the urge to say and do mean things. Do what I need to do to maintain composure. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

zillard said:


> Resist the urge to say and do mean things. Do what I need to do to maintain composure.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Have you told her this, in the form of an apology?


----------



## 06Daddio08

What's there to apologize for? Unless I missed something they're both aware that it's best to move on with each other's lives and focus on co-parenting.


----------



## zillard

06Daddio08 said:


> What's there to apologize for? Unless I missed something they're both aware that it's best to move on with each other's lives and focus on co-parenting.


Yeah. Treating her with respect and being a good co-parent will go much further.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

Z do you recall around January of 2013.... you and I were headed for D.

Recall our growth from the previous two months? Call on that learning... it's still there.

Pop would say "back up to see more screen" Conrad said "Get to 50k and observe"

They meant the same thing. Learn from mistake or repeat it. We are expected to make mistakes....

what learning is all about. How would I learn how to (xxxxxx) without him letting me do it wrong first?


----------



## jld

06Daddio08 said:


> *What's there to apologize for? *Unless I missed something they're both aware that it's best to move on with each other's lives and focus on co-parenting.


That he could not be what she needed.


----------



## turnera

It almost never hurts to apologize and almost always helps. You AND them.


----------



## 06Daddio08

jld said:


> That he could not be what she needed.


I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not.


----------



## jld

06Daddio08 said:


> I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not.


I am completely sincere.


----------



## turnera

06Daddio08 said:


> I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not.


He just said that he shouldn't have said mean things and should have kept his cool. HE sees that he could have been better, that he may have contributed to some of this mess. Let him say that to her. What's it gonna hurt? If nothing else, he'll feel good about himself taking ownership for his actions, and she'll feel good that she was respected enough to be apologized to. And they can still walk away and never see each other again.


----------



## Chuck71

No one is without POS tendencies. You own yours and improve yourself.

It may happen, it may not but either way you are in a better place.

*I think that's how Conrad would say it*


----------



## 06Daddio08

jld said:


> 06Daddio08 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not.
> 
> 
> 
> I am completely sincere.
Click to expand...

Interesting. To go along with what T said, I'd find an apology of that nature pointless and somewhat passive aggressive.

"Clearly we aren't going to work as husband and wife, the chances of that happening in a world of 7+ billion people is rather high. The one thing we can do is be great co-parents for little D."

Even then, co-parenting isn't always going to be smooth and I for one don't apologize (any longer) for having my own opinion on my children.

If anything they should apologize to themselves.


----------



## 06Daddio08

turnera said:


> 06Daddio08 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not.
> 
> 
> 
> He just said that he shouldn't have said mean things and should have kept his cool. HE sees that he could have been better, that he may have contributed to some of this mess. Let him say that to her. What's it gonna hurt? If nothing else, he'll feel good about himself taking ownership for his actions, and she'll feel good that she was respected enough to be apologized to. And they can still walk away and never see each other again.
Click to expand...


By all means he can do whatever he feels is right. The apology train has been going strong for quite sometime.

The ex and I apologize to one another, but we are also at a place where we can do that and not drag it onward for the most part. Things can get confusing at times trying to juggle two children between households, mistakes of that nature happen. The whole super personal, did I hurt your feelings? thing has to stop. When they quit putting each other in situations like that, it will operate a lot smoother.

Plus, saying what he says to her and then coming on here and expressing himself is counterproductive.


----------



## 06Daddio08

All I'm trying to say that beating a dead horse isn't always needed to move on or get closure. Some things simply are what they are and you continue on like Zillard said, treat each other with respect.

I feel that both sides can work on creating a healthy household for their daughter while working on their issues separately.


----------



## Ceegee

I believe apologizing for that now would do more harm than good. There are those whom would take an apology as validation for further abuse and I believe Olz is one 

Better to just resolve to improve yourself by learning and growing.


----------



## turnera

06Daddio08 said:


> By all means he can do whatever he feels is right. The apology train has been going strong for quite sometime.
> 
> The ex and I apologize to one another, but we are also at a place where we can do that and not drag it onward for the most part. Things can get confusing at times trying to juggle two children between households, mistakes of that nature happen. The whole super personal, did I hurt your feelings? thing has to stop. When they quit putting each other in situations like that, it will operate a lot smoother.
> 
> Plus, saying what he says to her and then coming on here and expressing himself is counterproductive.


Um, I was just visioning a text: You know, I've realized I could have handled my side better. And for that, I apologize. Have a great life.


----------



## 06Daddio08

turnera said:


> Um, I was just visioning a text: You know, I've realized I could have handled my side better. And for that, I apologize. Have a great life.


How does sending a vague text of that nature, followed by a 4 letter sentence at the end which would clearly be taken as passive aggressive at this current moment, help exactly?

As Ceegee said, I think it would do more harm than good at this point. When two people treat each other poorly, at times the best thing to do is simply walk away. That's it. Stop talking sour about one another to others and straight up come to terms with it.

In this case, they do it while focusing on their daughter.


----------



## jld

"Mrs. Z., I wish I had handled things differently. I wish I had handled myself better. I wish I had been a better example to you of how to handle emotions.

When alcohol gets involved, I do not behave like the man I want to be. I certainly was not the man you needed at those times.

I wish I could have shown empathy when you were upset. I think if I had been calm and understanding, yet firm, you would not have reacted like you did. I could have been the calm in your storm. Instead, I made your winds rise higher and wilder.

For all of this, and more, I am truly sorry."


----------



## Ceegee

jld said:


> "Mrs. Z., I wish I had handled things differently. I wish I had handled myself better. I wish I had been a better example to you of how to handle emotions.
> 
> 
> 
> When alcohol gets involved, I do not behave like the man I want to be. I certainly was not the man you needed at those times.
> 
> 
> 
> I wish I could have shown empathy when you were upset. I think if I had been calm and understanding, yet firm, you would not have reacted like you did. I could have been the calm in your storm. Instead, I made your winds rise higher and wilder.
> 
> 
> 
> For all of this, and more, I am truly sorry."



Recipe for disaster with high conflict (former) spouse. 

Just move on.


----------



## 06Daddio08

That sounds like something he could've written over a year ago.

Clearly we are of different mindsets on the matter, which is perfectly fine by me.


----------



## Pluto2

@jld, I think this is unrealistic.

It would be great if everyone behaved in respectful ways towards one another. If they did there would likely be a lot fewer divorces. But with some people (my ex), any communication along those lines would turn into a "I told you that you were the cause of all my problems and you just admitted it"-fest. Pointless.


----------



## bandit.45

jld said:


> "Mrs. Z., I wish I had handled things differently. I wish I had handled myself better. I wish I had been a better example to you of how to handle emotions.
> 
> When alcohol gets involved, I do not behave like the man I want to be. I certainly was not the man you needed at those times.
> 
> I wish I could have shown empathy when you were upset. I think if I had been calm and understanding, yet firm, you would not have reacted like you did. I could have been the calm in your storm. Instead, I made your winds rise higher and wilder.
> 
> For all of this, and more, I am truly sorry."


OLZ:

"Gee thanks. And I apologize for cheating on you and then taking you through a false R and then going on TAM and copping out to lame, existential reasoning for doing so."


Syd and Nancy.


----------



## Ceegee

If memory serves, Z sent her a "forgiveness" email a couple of years ago that covered some of this.


----------



## bandit.45

Ceegee said:


> If memory serves, Z sent her a "forgiveness" email a couple of years ago that covered some of this.


Whatever. I'm off this thread. Too many triggers and lame excuses for me.


----------



## Tron

zillard said:


> I agree with most of this. What you've said about me is spot on. *Sometimes* her anger has nothing to do with me though, or the topic of ptsd and PDs wouldn't ever come up. When that happened, I dealt with it poorly, certainly, which didn't help.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I sometimes internalize that anger from W and D1 too, even though it may not be directed at me. And get defensive and lash out. Not one of my better habits. Gotta continue to work on that.

When I realize it I try to apologize right away...W is pretty understanding about those kinds of things, able to deal with it and see it for what it is. She has the same issue sometimes and gets it.

D1 on the other hand is more sensitive and BPD. She reacts in kind. Can get explosive. Then damage is done and we are once again days away or weeks sometimes from getting back to a good place.


----------



## Lifescript

I think sending a letter apologizing is unnecessary. 

All efforts should be put in coparenting to the best capability. 

I believe Z and OLZ know they could have handled things better. 

But that's life and their daughter is doing fine so time to turn the page.


----------



## jld

Lifescript said:


> I think sending a letter apologizing is unnecessary.
> 
> All efforts should be put in coparenting to the best capability.
> 
> I believe Z and OLZ know they could have handled things better.
> 
> But that's life and their daughter is doing fine so time to turn the page.


I think it would be healing for her to hear it.


----------



## Ceegee

Disordereds don't work that way.


----------



## jld

Ceegee said:


> Disordereds don't work that way.


Please explain.


----------



## Lifescript

Nah jld. You know how many times I apologized to my ex. I'm not saying OLZ is like my ex or anything like that but I don't think it will make a difference. Maybe I'm wrong.


----------



## jld

Lifescript said:


> Nah jld. You know how many times I apologized to my ex. I'm not saying OLZ is like my ex or anything like that but I don't think it will make a difference. Maybe I'm wrong.


They are moving on from each other, as I understand it. I think a heartfelt apology could be healing for her, and, honestly, for him, too. Taking responsibility for his actions as they part ways.

She may be inspired to write one of her own then, too. That might be healing for him.


----------



## 06Daddio08

There's a whole lot of 'hope' being dropped around these parts.


----------



## jld

06Daddio08 said:


> There's a whole lot of 'hope' being dropped around these parts.


And what's wrong with that?


----------



## 06Daddio08

jld said:


> And what's wrong with that?


In this case / scenario. Everything. It's better placed on a lotto ticket. Zillard, to the lotteries!


----------



## Ceegee

jld said:


> And what's wrong with that?



Because that's what has been happening for years. At great expense to Z. 

The cycle needs to be broken. 

I don't know much but I know disordered. Trust me, it's my forte. 

Just stop. 

Stop!


----------



## jld

Ceegee said:


> Because that's what has been happening for years. At great expense to Z.
> 
> The cycle needs to be broken.
> 
> I don't know much but I know disordered. Trust me, it's my forte.
> 
> Just stop.
> 
> Stop!


Stop what? Hoping?

I am not saying they should reconcile. I just want to see a peaceful parting. I think an apology from each one could be helpful for that.


----------



## 06Daddio08

The peaceful parting is them co-parenting a daughter to adulthood.


----------



## turnera

And apologies go a long way toward achieving that peaceful part.

Look, no one is saying he has to do it. It's just a suggestion, one of many he receives here. I've seen a lot of good come out of apologies, even in horrible circumstances.

But...totally up to him.


----------



## jld

06Daddio08 said:


> The peaceful parting is them co-parenting a daughter to adulthood.


There was a relationship that brought that daughter into existence, that is no more. Imo, accepting and healing from that, by means of a sincere apology, would be helpful.

But Zillard, it is certainly up to you. It is just a suggestion from a random forum member.


----------



## jld

Pluto2 said:


> @jld, I think this is unrealistic.
> 
> It would be great if everyone behaved in respectful ways towards one another. If they did there would likely be a lot fewer divorces. But with some people (my ex), any communication along those lines would turn into a "I told you that you were the cause of all my problems and you just admitted it"-fest. Pointless.


I understand. It is just a suggestion. Each person has to decide for themselves if it would be helpful or not.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

turnera said:


> And apologies go a long way toward achieving that peaceful part.


No, it won't.

I hope Z will finally start to listen to guys like Daddio, Ceegee, Bandit, and Uptown. Guys who made the mistake of marrying and pro-creating with these creatures. (and there are women here that can relate, as well, having married the male version of this subspecies)

An apology will only validate her behavior, and she will see it as a license to continue with the blaming and devalue-ing. She's going to do it, regardless. So why encourage it?

I wish Mav was still here. She would emphasize that these disordered folks *do not* think/emote/behave like "normal folks".

I feel for you, Z. Co-parenting with this woman will not be easy. Be sure to have an iron-clad court order. 

From now on, be sure all of your contact with OLZ is via email or text. And back it up in the cloud. There may come a time when you need to provide documentation of your interactions with her.

-just a guy who's up around the bend, on the same trail


----------



## Ceegee

jld said:


> Stop what? Hoping?
> 
> I am not saying they should reconcile. I just want to see a peaceful parting. I think an apology from each one could be helpful for that.


jld, 

In a word, yes. Stop hoping and move on.

The best way to move on peacefully is to just move on.

Can't believe I'm reference an HP article but this one isn't bad. 

What Therapists Don't Tell You About Divorcing A High-Conflict Personality*|*Virginia Gilbert, MFT

Each of the points in this article were also recommended to me by the mental health professional involved in my divorce, my (3) IC's and our court ordered parent facilitator.

I know the calls for an apology to smooth things over are well meaning. In this case, however, it won't work.


----------



## bandit.45

Apologize for what?????


----------



## Chuck71

Those who mentioned the apology.... would they have held the same belief if Z was a female?


----------



## jld

Chuck71 said:


> Those who mentioned the apology.... would they have held the same belief if Z was a female?


I think it would be very good if she wrote him an apology. It is always healthy to take honest account of the ways we have hurt others, and try to make amends. If she damaged his home, she can offer to pay for the damages. 

Mrs. Z needs a different man. I believe there is a man out there who can meet her needs and inspire her to develop the self-discipline she needs to create a healthy, satisfying life. His own example will be a key part of that.

In the meantime, she can take steps to achieving that self-discipline on her own. Being brutally honest with herself, and not hiding from truth, even when it is painful, is a critical part of that.


----------



## bandit.45

No!

No more apologies! No more promises! No more nothing!

End it. Stop thinking about each other. Stop talking to each other. Stop thinking about talking to each other. What the hell is there left to say has not already been said, and re-said, and re-said again? This relationship is dead...

Not just dead, but Z took a flame thrower to the corpse and then OLZ came along, squatted and pissed on the ashes. 

They are two people who happen to be the parents of a girl. They need to come up with a plan to drop the daughter off with a third party during switchoffs so there is no more face to face. Any communication needs to be single sentence texts about the logistics of switching the daughter off and money. 

They are not friends, not exes, not anything....they need to END IT!


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## Ceegee

March 21, 2013



zillard said:


> It got emotional from here. X went into blaming me for the end of the relationship. For not listening. Being distant. I owned my issues and apologized. X said she doesn't believe the apology. She said I don't care. I told her that I do. I never stopped caring. I will always care about her. X got a flash of anger on her face. IC noted and called it out.
> 
> IC told her I must seem robotic as I remain calm through all this. But this is different. Then I was unhealthy and distant but now I am protecting myself emotionally. She observed that X wants me to open up and get close but then if I do she becomes very uncomfortable so pushes away - hard. Said she's observed it many times through the sessions and that is why Z is now calm and composed. I'm doing what is best for me.
> 
> IC again recommended inpatient trauma therapy. Described it a bit. X shot it down again. She can't afford to take off work.
> 
> IC - well it looks as though Z and D7 will be moving to Utah.


You can't make someone accept an apology. They do or they don't (or can't).

Now, 2 years and 3 months later, it's time to just. move. on...


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## turnera

Dead horse, guys. He already said MANY pages back that he's not going to. Chillax.


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## Lifescript

I think an apology won't help. 

I hope Z and OLZ can coparent peacefully. I didn't think it was possible in my situation with my ex but I'm glad to say things have been good on that front for some time. It started off rocky but smooth sailing from there on.


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## 06Daddio08

Lifescript said:


> I think an apology won't help.
> 
> I hope Z and OLZ can coparent peacefully. I didn't think it was possible in my situation with my ex but I'm glad to say things have been good on that front for some time. It started off rocky but smooth sailing from there on.


Oh I'm sure that would have turned out quite differently if your ex got her hands on this website.


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## Lifescript

06Daddio08 said:


> Oh I'm sure that would have turned out quite differently if your ex got her hands on this website.


Oh my ... that would have been the start of WWIII. 

She would have exaggerated things 10 fold.


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## Chuck71

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:


Lifescript said:


> Oh my ... that would have been the start of WWIII.
> 
> She would have exaggerated things 10 fold.


Oh LS...... you have to be schitting us :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## zillard

So, who else is excited about the new Pixar film, Inside Out? Had a discussion with the child psych about it and we're both stoked about this subject matter being in a kid's film!

Science Of Sadness And Joy: 'Inside Out' Gets Childhood Emotions Right | WSHU


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## Lifescript

Happy father's day Z.


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## zillard

Lifescript said:


> Happy father's day Z.


Thanks! You too Script! Have a great one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## aine

Zillard, I have followed with interest your posts.

You have now come full circle wouldn't you say?

What gems of wisdom would you share with people trying to reconcile?


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## zillard

aine said:


> Zillard, I have followed with interest your posts.
> 
> You have now come full circle wouldn't you say?
> 
> What gems of wisdom would you share with people trying to reconcile?


When you think you're doing your best. Do better.
When you think you've communicated enough. Say more.
When you think you understand. Make sure.
When you start to argue. Shut up.
When you think you are prepared. You're not.
When you think you need help. Seek it.

And if you hit your predetermined limits. That's it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## zillard

As for the movie, Inside Out, this post contains spoilers. 

I know nobody expressed an interest, but I don't care. It was a great movie. 

Most animated children's films have some sort of life lesson, but are mostly just fun silliness. This was very different from the norm. After I attended court yesterday for X's charges, and had a sit down with the prosecutor, it was just what D and I needed. D and I were both expecting some sort of resolution and possibly a dissolution of the protective order. However, things have been put on hold until August. Not sure exactly why as I'm rightfully not involved in discussions with her lawyer. 

Anyway, we went to see the movie. 

It's centered around an 11 year old girl, which was perfect for my above average 9 yo. The animated characters are the child's primary emotions - anger, fear, disgust, sadness and joy. Joy being the central character inside the girl's mind. Joy has huge problems relating to sadness and sees her as stupid and useless, destroying everything she touches. The setup of the child's mind is these 5 run the control center. They collect and project memories, affecting the girl's moods. Each day creates hundreds of memories, each colored by a primary emotion. Red, purple, green, blue and yellow. Of these memories, the rare critical memories are selected as a core memory and kept in a type of vault.

These core memories are responsible for creating "islands" in the mind. Each island plays a role in developing the child's personality. Islands like silly fun time, specific interests, honesty/truth, and family. The film starts with all of those core memories being yellow - joy. 

The sadness character, feeling unimportant and dismissed by the leader, joy, decides to start touching things when the child moves to a new state, house and school. As she touches the yellow core memories, the same memory is projected, but with a blue hue. Joy thinks sadness is ruining everything and in the chaos the core memories are misplaced. Joy and sadness go on the hunt, leaving Anger, Disgust and Fear behind to run the control center. Of course, they thoroughly fvck things up without Joy and Sadness. 

On the journey, Joy takes a closer look at the yellow core memory spheres. She rewinds a little and discovers that sadness was present. The child was extremely sad, resulting in mother and father, friends, etc reaching out and sharing a moment. Due to that connection, the mood changed to joy, and because of the contrast and connection, the memory became a core memory - increasing it's importance in the child's personality. 

After this, Joy sees the importance of sadness, and actually helps sadness take a leading role in saving the day. At this point the child is at an extreme turning point, running away from home, devoid of all joy and sadness, with a personality that no longer exists as it should. Sadness makes her yearn for home, and when she returns, she opens up and bursts into tears, pouring out her frustration with the move and change in circumstances. This leads to mother and father validating those concerns and frustration with their own, and the result is a new core memory. 

But this time the core memory is not yellow. It is not red, green, purple, or blue. It is multi-colored. And soon, most of the memories being creating in the child's mind are multicolored. Green and purple. Blue and yellow. Red, Purple and blue. etc. Due to this, the characters get upgraded with a new expanded console at the control center. 

I watched my D's face through the film. It conveyed many mixed emotions as she processed the information. And at the end she was absolutely thrilled about it - but not a child's jumping up and down excitement after seeing monkeys do cartwheels. A quiet grin of contentment and fascination.

On the drive home and for a couple hours afterward we talked. She initiated the conversation and likened parts of the film to our current situation. We compared the upgraded multi-colored memory balls to the feeling pie charts that we do together. I validated that at any given time we can we feel a number of emotions - and that's OK!

She explained how even though she feels this or that about our situation - she sees and understands that if her mother and I had never had a divorce, we would not have moved to Utah. She would not have new core memories related to her extended family, who she thoroughly enjoys spending time with and is growing to know and love, vs. seeing them only a couple times a year on holidays. How if her mother and I weren't living in different places now, she would not be spending a lot of time with her boy cousins who have introduced her to Minecraft which she now loves. 

She teared up a bit as I held her, we laughed, and we talked a lot before going to bed. She went to bed at a normal time and slept in 3-4 hours later than usual, expressing to me in the morning how well she slept. 

So, if you have a kid in the 9-13 range - watch that film with them! Entertaining, and a great REAL conversation starter.


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## TheGoodGuy

That's a fantastic review of the movie Z. I took my D9 to it as well and she enjoyed it as well. She has given me some examples of things in our life have been similar too. I think this was a great departure of the "normal" children's animation to really make it all about the feelings, in a way that this age group can easily identify with. And I may have gotten a little misty eyed myself a couple of times. Darn allergies.


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## zillard

When she came home to her parents, that turmoil in her face before she let loose... I had allergies too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TheGoodGuy

I remember that scene well. To see those emotions on a child's face gets me every time, and after I get angry again (not in front her) that her mom leaving caused many of those emotions. 

ETA: the trick is trying to teach in those moments; to validate the feelings and help them to respond to them in a healthy way.


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## Ceegee

Interesting...I haven't heard anything about this movie but will most certainly take S14, S11 & D8 to see it.

This sounds a lot like what I experienced in IFS sessions (which I had a hard time with).


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## zillard

"He who lives in harmony with himself lives in harmony with the universe."
- Marcus Aurelius

Maintaining this is likely the single largest struggle of my life. And a big reason I love camping and backpacking. 

It's much easier to look inward when the view is completely natural and the only reflection you see is your own.


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## turnera

I often try to imagine how people lived about 200 years ago - no electronics, slow pace, living with nature, neighbors helping neighbors...I think we'd all benefit if we lived more like that again. Especially kids.


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## Pluto2

I'm taking my kids to a state park next week. We'll be in a lakefront cabin (I"m just too old for sleeping on the ground anymore), but there's no tv, and no internet. Just the lake, mountains, hiking trails and a canoe trip or two. Wondering how long it will take them to quit checking their phones all the time!


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## turnera

That's my biggest regret. I love camping, but I couldn't get my H to go when DD24 was a kid more than once or twice. Although I did sign them up for YMCA's Indian Princess, where they went camping (dads and daughters) quite a few times.


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## vi_bride04

I'm rustic camping along lake Michigan and lake Superior with my dog in a couple weeks  so excited


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## Chuck71

There's a lot to be said for how people lived from the Revolutionary War to WW2. I can see the Great Smoky 

Mountains from my back door. There are small pockets where people refused electricity and do

live off the grid. I try to visit them a few times a year. 

Lake Ocoee is breathtaking..... no wonder it is "the lake" I often speak of. Cades Cove is a short drive north....

sometimes I wish I could disappear for a year and live there. Descendants of the people who owned the land

before becoming Nat'l Park were allowed to stay there IF they lived the land as their ancestors did.

The last one died I would say.... 30 years ago. 

Just something about the moonlight bouncing across the water.... 

I've never taken coke or heroin but am aware of what they do

this is as good....... with the right mindset


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## TheGoodGuy

Z how goes it man?


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## zillard

TheGoodGuy said:


> Z how goes it man?


It goes well! 

D and I have really been enjoying the summer. And I've made it a busy one. I've taken her camping as much as possible. Hiking along the river, swimming in the lake, boating at the dam, local festivals, etc. Many firsts for her this summer. She decided she wanted to swim all the way across the reservoir; she made it across and back (though with a life jacket)! First time on a boogey board. First time shooting with a wrist rocket. First real hike. First roller coaster ride. I also got her signed up as a girl scout and she's super excited about that. 

I've been hiking a lot as well. Bought a bow flex system and converted a room in the house into a gym. Pushing myself with both and getting more in shape. 

In early May I had a Backpacking trip planned, but with the split and drama then I chose to cancel. Wasn't a good time to be off grid and away from D. Felt good about my choice. 

Now I have another planned and will be going this weekend into early next week. Really looking forward to it. Starting at a popular campground deep in the mountain range. Will climb and then drop down into a secluded canyon only accessible by foot or horse. Camping there where I'll replenish water supply at one of many mountain Springs. From there will ascend one of the tallest peaks in the range at 9.9k ft. Will camp again during the descent on the other side. Then continue the descent out of the mountains and drop down into the valley where I live. 

Stay tuned for photos of the scenery... 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TheGoodGuy

zillard said:


> It goes well!
> 
> D and I have really been enjoying the summer. And I've made it a busy one. I've taken her camping as much as possible. Hiking along the river, swimming in the lake, boating at the dam, local festivals, etc. Many firsts for her this summer. She decided she wanted to swim all the way across the reservoir; she made it across and back (though with a life jacket)! First time on a boogey board. First time shooting with a wrist rocket. First real hike. First roller coaster ride. I also got her signed up as a girl scout and she's super excited about that.
> 
> I've been hiking a lot as well. Bought a bow flex system and converted a room in the house into a gym. Pushing myself with both and getting more in shape.
> 
> In early May I had a Backpacking trip planned, but with the split and drama then I chose to cancel. Wasn't a good time to be off grid and away from D. Felt good about my choice.
> 
> Now I have another planned and will be going this weekend into early next week. Really looking forward to it. Starting at a popular campground deep in the mountain range. Will climb and then drop down into a secluded canyon only accessible by foot or horse. Camping there where I'll replenish water supply at one of many mountain Springs. From there will ascend one of the tallest peaks in the range at 9.9k ft. Will camp again during the descent on the other side. Then continue the descent out of the mountains and drop down into the valley where I live.
> 
> Stay tuned for photos of the scenery...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Nice!! Thanks for the update. D9 and I have been doing many of the same activities this summer, especially camping, canoeing, boating. Your hike sounds epic! Enjoy.

ETA: How is D doing? You still have primary custody right? Are things just normal visitation with XW?


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## zillard

Huge plus of X staying in the valley is D has been able to spend very close to 50/50 with each of us during the summer. She does much better emotionally seeing us both frequently. 

There really haven't been any big issues with that, IMO, and we've both been pretty flexible about the days and working around work schedules and holidays. 

Next month when she goes back to school things will remain the same, except for the midweek overnights. That's mostly logistics. School is a block away from my house.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chuck71

zillard said:


> It goes well!
> 
> D and I have really been enjoying the summer. And I've made it a busy one. I've taken her camping as much as possible. Hiking along the river, swimming in the lake, boating at the dam, local festivals, etc. Many firsts for her this summer. She decided she wanted to swim all the way across the reservoir; she made it across and back (though with a life jacket)! First time on a boogey board. First time shooting with a wrist rocket. First real hike. First roller coaster ride. I also got her signed up as a girl scout and she's super excited about that.
> 
> I've been hiking a lot as well. Bought a bow flex system and converted a room in the house into a gym. Pushing myself with both and getting more in shape.
> 
> In early May I had a Backpacking trip planned, but with the split and drama then I chose to cancel. Wasn't a good time to be off grid and away from D. Felt good about my choice.
> 
> Now I have another planned and will be going this weekend into early next week. Really looking forward to it. Starting at a popular campground deep in the mountain range. Will climb and then drop down into a secluded canyon only accessible by foot or horse. Camping there where I'll replenish water supply at one of many mountain Springs. From there will ascend one of the tallest peaks in the range at 9.9k ft. Will camp again during the descent on the other side. Then continue the descent out of the mountains and drop down into the valley where I live.
> 
> Stay tuned for photos of the scenery...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


For some reason I have John Denver sounds stuck in my head. Guess that's what I get for TGG not being able

to get that Rod Stewart song out of his head


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## Ceegee

zillard said:


> Huge plus of X staying in the valley is D has been able to spend very close to 50/50 with each of us during the summer. She does much better emotionally seeing us both frequently.
> 
> 
> 
> There really haven't been any big issues with that, IMO, and we've both been pretty flexible about the days and working around work schedules and holidays.
> 
> 
> 
> Next month when she goes back to school things will remain the same, except for the midweek overnights. That's mostly logistics. School is a block away from my house.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



This is encouraging. 

Was the change in schedule during the school year mutually agreed upon? How much further is she from D9's school?

I would ask how D9 feels about the change but I think she's a go-with-the-flow kind of girl. 

But if she's been doing better with the 50/50 why change?


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## zillard

Ceegee said:


> This is encouraging.
> 
> Was the change in schedule during the school year mutually agreed upon? How much further is she from D9's school?
> 
> I would ask how D9 feels about the change but I think she's a go-with-the-flow kind of girl.
> 
> But if she's been doing better with the 50/50 why change?


We agreed to that schedule while she was still in school, with it being more flexible in the summertime, based on the standard close proximity plan in this state. 

Do I have an aversion to x dropping d off at school after an overnight a couple times a week? No, not really. As long as her work schedule permits and d does well with it. We haven't talked about that though, no.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tron

You guys are talking again?


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## zillard

Tron said:


> You guys are talking again?


About D9, but mostly text. Phone call here and there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lifescript

I'm glad things are going well Z. Sounds like coparenting with your ex is going smooth which is always a plus. I'm happy for your daughter. In the end, despite the incident, this is a better outcome I think than what she had before when your ex was living far. Now she has both of you.


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## zillard

What an adventure! Passed some horseback riders at the beginning, but after that no other groups in 3 days. Some of the springs were all dried up, so I had to do an extra 6 steep miles to get water at an active spring. Then the next day it poured rain and there was plenty. My trusty hiking boots finally reached their end - sole separated a couple miles from the finish line. 

Drenched, stiff, and sore.
I loved it. :grin2:


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## Chuck71

The newer version of the Great Smoky Mountains. Funny how wildlife can sometimes be an A-1 therapist! 

I see the pics and I can't help but hear John Denver's "Take me home, Country Road"

Kinda odd for a metal head lol


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## TheGoodGuy

Good stuff Z, glad your trip was something you'll never forget.


----------



## Chuck71

zillard said:


> What an adventure! Passed some horseback riders at the beginning, but after that no other groups in 3 days. Some of the springs were all dried up, so I had to do an extra 6 steep miles to get water at an active spring. Then the next day it poured rain and there was plenty. My trusty hiking boots finally reached their end - sole separated a couple miles from the finish line.
> 
> Drenched, stiff, and sore.
> I loved it. :grin2:


Give me this, a Pink Floyd album, pen, paper, coffee / fifth....... dreams can still be made


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## Tron

Nice photos Z!


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## zillard

I think it's time to close this thread. 

Protective order is now lifted. 4 months+ living apart post R. 2.5 years post D. Co-parenting going as well as can be expected. We both acknowledge that things are done. 

I don't regret the attempt to R. It was definitely a time of turmoil but I learned a lot from it. About her and a lot about me and my limitations. I am very hopeful for the future and I think we can do a good job of co-parenting for the next decade. Certainly it won't be without it's trials and challenges. And I may reach out when those happen. But for now.. D is doing well. Boundaries are in place. And it's time to move on. 

Previously it was "c'est la vie". 

Now it's "la vie est grande"

Bon Voyage.


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## zillard

"Very little is needed to make a happy life; it is all within yourself, in your way of thinking."

-Marcus Aurelius


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## farsidejunky

Take care, Z, and try your best not to be a stranger.


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## Lifescript

Z, 

Take care. Wish you luck and happiness moving forward. Keep in touch.


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## Chuck71

Hate seeing you go Z...... GP was banned last year and Group is dating a 

princess from Aruba. We all hit this board together it seemed. Every one of 

us confused, hurt, scared, and in some ways..... lost. I noticed we posted on

GP and Group's thread a lot and you posted on my Sink or Swim. I didn't even

know you had a thread until, around your D. There was a night right before I left the

house in Dec. '12.... I was past my lowest point but still had 'one of those nights.' 

Decided to log into TAM an immerse myself into GP, Group, LostinSpace, HiRoad's

threads. You and I spoke quite a few times that night on a few of those threads.

Being a night owl.... and you were 2-3 hours behind, we would trade posts well into

the night. Few times I caught myself second guessing the D as it neared.... again,

we posted a bit, well after midnight. When I knew it was best for me to end things

with UG..... you were there for me to "bounce my rationale why" and the "surprise move

out by UG." If you never post on TAM again (in time, you will... I hope), I just want to say

thank you brother..... you helped me in so many ways. I never had a clue what co-parenting

was until TAM. Now I have a firm grasp for future reference. It's no secret why Conrad saw

a lot of "young Conrad" in you when you first came to TAM. Best wishes Z and D9.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80N2BGQEpr4 

ps-Offer for Great Smoky Mountains still stands......


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## TheGoodGuy

Wait Z you're leaving? I just thought you were closing this thread.


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## 06Daddio08

All the best to you and your little girl.


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## Garry2012

Chuck71 said:


> Hate seeing you go Z...... GP was banned last year and Group is dating a
> 
> princess from Aruba. We all hit this board together it seemed. Every one of
> 
> us confused, hurt, scared, and in some ways..... lost. I noticed we posted on
> 
> GP and Group's thread a lot and you posted on my Sink or Swim. I didn't even
> 
> know you had a thread until, around your D. There was a night right before I left the
> 
> house in Dec. '12.... I was past my lowest point but still had 'one of those nights.'
> 
> Decided to log into TAM an immerse myself into GP, Group, LostinSpace, HiRoad's
> 
> threads. You and I spoke quite a few times that night on a few of those threads.
> 
> Being a night owl.... and you were 2-3 hours behind, we would trade posts well into
> 
> the night. Few times I caught myself second guessing the D as it neared.... again,
> 
> we posted a bit, well after midnight. When I knew it was best for me to end things
> 
> with UG..... you were there for me to "bounce my rationale why" and the "surprise move
> 
> out by UG." If you never post on TAM again (in time, you will... I hope), I just want to say
> 
> thank you brother..... you helped me in so many ways. I never had a clue what co-parenting
> 
> was until TAM. Now I have a firm grasp for future reference. It's no secret why Conrad saw
> 
> a lot of "young Conrad" in you when you first came to TAM. Best wishes Z and D9.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80N2BGQEpr4
> 
> ps-Offer for Great Smoky Mountains still stands......


I feel the same I joined in sept/Oct of 2012 and Z's story was close to mine and followed his story as I went through my journey as well. I understand Z, I post little anymore...better most of the time to just not stay in that life "space" anymore. All the best to you and D9 Z!!


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## zillard

I haven't posted here for a good while, but am currently experiencing some problems in co-parenting. Really don't want to involve a lawyer again but at the point I think I might need to. Moderators, can you please make this private, or should I make a new private thread?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chuck71

Sadly...... this doesn't surprise me (or most others who read your thread) at all.....


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## Pluto2

Z-probably quicker to just start a new thread. The mods have tons to do here.


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## Tron

Or set up a private group.


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## farsidejunky

Tron said:


> Or set up a private group.


This. That way you have absolute control of who sees it.


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## zillard

farsidejunky said:


> This. That way you have absolute control of who sees it.


How do I do that? Sounds optimal.


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## farsidejunky

Tools>Quick Links>Social Groups

Scroll to almost the very bottom.

Click "Create New Group".

Make it a closed group.

Then invite folks. Add me to the list if you'll have me.


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## Ceegee

Good luck Z.


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## TheGoodGuy

I too would like added to the private group if you'll have me. Your story has mirrored mine in many ways - minus the R attempt after the divorce.


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## Ms. GP

zillard said:


> I haven't posted here for a good while, but am currently experiencing some problems in co-parenting. Really don't want to involve a lawyer again but at the point I think I might need to. Moderators, can you please make this private, or should I make a new private thread?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry to hear that bud.


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## Lifescript

Sorry to hear you are having problems with your ex Z. Any advice I could give I'm here brother. Good luck. Keep your cool and be decisive.


----------

