# Doing the 180 in-house separation



## waynejoey (Jun 8, 2018)

After reading some success stories on the 180, I have found a totally different school of thought on the I love you but I'm not in love with you phenomenon.

What I ask the group here is if this is too soon or dramatic. Here is the recap of the timeline:

Almost 3 years ago - my wife states she was secretly unhappy in the marriage
This May 2018, I finally realized what she had been hiding / masking. She was running the FAP on me, being short, snarky, and distant.
Early June, I finally got the truth out of her and gave the divorce or counseling ultimatum.
I'm 
We're less than 1 week into counseling, her first IC is tomorrow. However, I've been "changed" super husband for the last solid month.

She has me in the friend zone. We watch TV, talk, and laugh. As soon as there is anything emotional like touching or i love yous she completely backs off. No sex. Everything we did in counseling so far she thinks is dumb. She is super negative about everything.

So, I'm thinking of taking all my stuff and moving to the basement, starting to make some friends, and detaching but without being mean or rude about it. I'm going to stop giving her outputs from the 5LL since she doesn't give me any in return. I'm going to stop watching TV with her and having fun, unless I start getting love bank deposits in return.

Too dramatic? Too soon? Or is it time she faces the music!


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

waynejoey said:


> After reading some success stories on the 180, I have found a totally different school of thought on the I love you but I'm not in love with you phenomenon.
> 
> What I ask the group here is if this is too soon or dramatic. Here is the recap of the timeline:
> 
> ...


In one of your other threads you talked about how your wife didn’t speak to her father for six months after a minor argument caused by her when she was pregnant.Your wife uses the silent treatment as a weapon and you,at least earlier on appeared to be grateful when she would give you any semblance of affection.This justifies her actions in her own mind.
You need to take the “Kick me” sign off your back and if you are serious about doing the 180 then that’s a start.
But I don’t think you can pull this off,you are too co-dependent and are allready second guessing yourself.
Either accept that this is your life or do something about it,no half measures,no asking your wife for permission.
Just do it.


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

OP Just state how you feel explain how you act and don't be PA

The rest will work itself out let go of the outcome make peace with yourself

55

ETA: Children ??


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

waynejoey said:


> After reading some success stories on the 180, I have found a totally different school of thought on the I love you but I'm not in love with you phenomenon.
> 
> What I ask the group here is if this is too soon or dramatic. Here is the recap of the timeline:
> 
> ...


She's in control and now you are going to run away to the basement? Why live your life on her terms? It won't get you much except more of what you're getting. 

Read up its short https://archive.org/details/RobertGloverNoMoreMrNiceGuy


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

You don't change your behavior you will wallow in this awhile


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

waynejoey said:


> So, I'm thinking of taking all my stuff and moving to the basement, starting to make some friends, and detaching but without being mean or rude about it.


I advise you to make all the friends you want, detach completely, and don't be mean or rude. Those are all terrific "180" moves. I don't advise you to move any of your stuff, or yourself, anywhere. You worked for it, you paid for it, and by God, you are entitled to live in YOUR HOME. All of it. Not just a basement.

If she doesn't like your new-found freedom? Tell HER to move into the basement. Refuse to be controlled and managed by her. Do what you want, when you want, with no regard for her or her desires.


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## Betrayedone (Jan 1, 2014)

In house separation doesn't work. Someone has to leave.


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## waynejoey (Jun 8, 2018)

TJW said:


> I advise you to make all the friends you want, detach completely, and don't be mean or rude. Those are all terrific "180" moves. I don't advise you to move any of your stuff, or yourself, anywhere. You worked for it, you paid for it, and by God, you are entitled to live in YOUR HOME. All of it. Not just a basement.
> 
> If she doesn't like your new-found freedom? Tell HER to move into the basement. Refuse to be controlled and managed by her. Do what you want, when you want, with no regard for her or her desires.


Well we got in to a huge fight last night. She actually moved to another bedroom, she never does that.

We were having a really good day, hanging with family, laughing a lot, even sitting close to each other.

I got the kids to bed and approached her for a kiss. I just wanted to do a little hand holding.

She flipped out, accuses me of trying to initiate sex, and goes back to the ILYBNILWY.

So then I asked if there has been any improvement. My attitude and super-dadness has been on point for a month. We've been hanging and watching TV for a couple weeks. We completed 1 couples session and read a little bit of 5LL together.

She reports that there has been NO movement in the ILYBNILWY department.

So I asked what her timeframe was for giving up, because she said she wouldn't do this for an extended period of time. She won't tell me. So I suggested if there is no progress week to week after a couple weeks then we need to end it.

Well she didn't seem to happy about that. I asked what her plan was, she said she doesn't plan. I laughed. She stormed out.

Let the 180 begin, I'm done being a door mat.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

waynejoey said:


> We're less than 1 week into counseling, her first IC is tomorrow. However, I've been "changed" super husband for the last solid month.


I've said before -- having IC at the same time as MC can be a big problem. Often an IC will just tell her she's right about everything. 

One session of MC is nothing. Rarely is there much progress before around 8 sessions, unless both parties are already committed to the process of trying to fix it themselves and just need a safe space to continue the process. One of the influential technical books for specialist couple therapists is called "short-term couple therapy" and by short-term the author means _only _20 sessions. 



> She has me in the friend zone. We watch TV, talk, and laugh. As soon as there is anything emotional like touching or i love yous she completely backs off. No sex.


True, but don't think of it like "she has me in the friend zone" like this is her plan or something she's doing on purpose and could just stop doing. That only feeds your own hostility. 



> Everything we did in counseling so far she thinks is dumb.


Does she make this clear to the counselor? It needs to be addressed. Although, "everything" doesn't mean much if it's only one session. 



> So, I'm thinking of taking all my stuff and moving to the basement


Very bad plan. That looks like sulking. The "180" needs to be *the opposite* of sulking. One of the key ideas is to be cheerful. Not going and living in the basement. 

I'd say the couple counselor's first task is to get you away from your ideas of "she has me in the friend zone" and "i'm going to live in the basement" and suchlike. 



> starting to make some friends, and detaching but without being mean or rude about it.


Yeah, that's okay, as long as you are not doing it to "show her" but for your own benefit. 



waynejoey said:


> She flipped out, accuses me of trying to initiate sex


Yeah, your timing was off. 



> So then I asked if there has been any improvement.


Doing that is the opposite of the 180. Never ask that. 



> So I asked what her timeframe was for giving up


*Stop asking these arm-twisting questions!* Detach! 



> So I suggested if there is no progress week to week after a couple weeks then we need to end it.


A couple of weeks? That's your stamina? How long did this take to all go wrong? How many years?



> I asked what her plan was, she said she doesn't plan. I laughed.


Well, I guess you showed her! 



> Let the 180 begin


Okay. Be cheerful at all times. Ask no questions. That will be a 180 turn for you.

(By the way, in-house separation and 180 are completely different things -- almost opposites!)


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Waynejoey,

How did you get to this point? By your own admission you said you neglected her and, did not treat her well so the freshness and spark went out of your marriage. Now that she has told you she is no longer in love with you you are pulling out all the stops and after a month you expect changes. I'm afraid you created this mess for yourself. A woman will put up with alot of **** in a marriage but there comes a time when she crosses the snap line, not sure if she has or not yet but she is sure close and she will make you crawl for some time yet, just the same way you neglected her. You will be lucky if she does take you back or has any love left for you. Doing the 180 on her is a stupid idea as it will just reinforce what she thinks about you all along

1. you are capable of neglecting her
2. you are selfish and put yourself first for a long time
3. YOu are capable of being a good Dad and Husband but you CHOSE not to, only when you were about to lose her
4. YOu think you can bully her into being in love with you, that is pathetic

She sees right through all your short term efforts, cause a real man will suck it up, realise he has ****ed up and be prepared for the long haul, not you it seems. Now you are threatening the 180, going to the basement, like a spoilt child who is not getting his way. Grow up ffs. It took some time for your to snuff out the flame with your neglect, it will also take some time to kick start the relationship if you haven't already damaged it beyond repair. 
Why do men do this? Once you lose a woman's love it is almost impossible to get it back.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

And to all those egging on JOey to do 180 the right way, etc, you are helping to put the final nails in the coffin of his marriage. If he does the 180 it confirms what she has come to know about him, he is neglectful, selfish and all about him. Way to go!


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## waynejoey (Jun 8, 2018)

aine said:


> Waynejoey,
> 
> How did you get to this point? By your own admission you said you neglected her and, did not treat her well so the freshness and spark went out of your marriage. Now that she has told you she is no longer in love with you you are pulling out all the stops and after a month you expect changes. I'm afraid you created this mess for yourself. A woman will put up with alot of **** in a marriage but there comes a time when she crosses the snap line, not sure if she has or not yet but she is sure close and she will make you crawl for some time yet, just the same way you neglected her. You will be lucky if she does take you back or has any love left for you. Doing the 180 on her is a stupid idea as it will just reinforce what she thinks about you all along
> 
> ...



I've taken most of the blame at this point, but as @farsidejunkie pointed out, that's me being the "victim" as a result of all the emotional abuse.

Our entire relationship has been toxic. We have fought since day 1. I chase, she controls, we fight, we make-up. It is totally dysfunctional.

During her 2nd pregnancy she had huge mood swings. Fighting with me. Fighting with her family. She says mean stuff and yells at me and the kids. I would just take it, but hang around so I could get some sex. We played this game for a couple years. I just thought that was as good as it was going to get.

Apparently she was afraid I was going to kick her out, which I would have never done. I just wanted us to get help but she always demonized counseling, so I didn't force the issue. I would provide money and security, and she would provide sex. Without saying it, that is how we lived. Now there were flashes of love throughout, but she can't remember them as it is fogged by her depression. I have love notes, facebook posts, and some wild nights in memory that prove it.

Now she has decided she doesn't like the arrangement anymore. The reality is, she has a ton of work to do on herself (and so do I probably), but she is resistant to it.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

Why do you allow her to make the decisions about how long....I would tell her this has been going to long if you don't love me then leave me once and for all. Stop putting up with this torture...
Honestly I think your suffering from Stockholm syndrome .


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

aine said:


> And to all those egging on JOey to do 180 the right way, etc, you are helping to put the final nails in the coffin of his marriage. If he does the 180 it confirms what she has come to know about him, he is neglectful, selfish and all about him. Way to go!


You may be right. I don't see much danger that what anyone says here will influence him anyway. The 180 has nothing to do with neglecting her, but it sounds like he is seeing it as some kind of "fighting back".


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## waynejoey (Jun 8, 2018)

Sorry guys, I know I sound crazy. This is a devastating process. I haven't been single for 15 years, and that's basically how I have to treat this. I'm going all around the subject matter to hone in on the best course of action, which is why you see me pressing the boundaries and going a bit outside of your recommendations. This is my inner-man problem solving loop, it never ends!

1. Her "falling out of love" with me, is an issue we both created jointly. We're both at fault. Along the way I fell out of love too, but I'm a dude, so it is less noticeable.

2. I need to stop trying to solve her problems. It is up to her to work on herself and how hard and fast she wants to do it.

3. I need to continue to work on myself, including curbing my insatiable desire to have a 2-way relationship with a woman.

4. I have to detach. Watching her walk around in her cute outfits and pretty smile and not being able to act on it will slowly kill me. By detaching I can shift my focus to something else and give this healing process more longevity. I'll do this by making some friends and getting more hobbies.

5. I need to stay positive, keep being a great dad, and not pick any fights.

6. I am in phase 5 of the MAP in married men's sex life primer, "start distancing". I need to stay there or go to phase 6. I cannot go back a direction!!

</crazy> if anyone is a programmer you'll understand this as the end of crazy, haha


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## SentHereForAReason (Oct 25, 2017)

WJ, out of all the things I have ever said to you, please listen to me on this, please. We talked about the inconsistency in another thread. You are all over the map and I can understand why because of the frustration and the hopelessness and the anxiety, etc. I know the feeling, I do. But you have got to pick something and stick to it or you are going to drive the car into the lake yourself faster than it's already heading there.

1. If she is having an affair, which it sounds to you like you think there's still not a chance of that but if she is, NOTHING you will do will change things, so let's get that out of the way. I say this as a disclaimer and not so much as something to think about right now.

2. If she is checked out, it's almost as bad as above because she has made her mind up there's not turning back but it still leaves a sliver of hope.

Here's the thing, if it's #2, as aine has said, you are proving your Wife right! You are all over the place looking for results immediately, switching strategies on the fly, contemplating in-house separations one day and showering her with affection the next. It's killing your efforts and it hurts to watch. I never had a chance because my STBXW chose someone else over me while she was still married and had forsaken everything we promised each other and built but if your wife is just checked out, you HAVE to really check your emotions at the door and go full force into showing your wife with actions and consistency what you are made out of. You have to stop basing your actions on her reactions. 

What sucks is there has to be an extreme balance in all of this if there's a shot. You can't push her away with too much affection and you don't want to go cold on her either, it sucks but this is what you are faced with. After all of this, it still may not all work but it would be nice to say you gave it 110% before it's called a day, to know you did everything you could.

- don't talk about the marriage or the future anymore outside of counseling
- don't issue ultimatums and try to prevent yourself from getting upset
- do what you can around the house and where applicable, you can do or say something nice to her each day but don't overdue it
- be nice and cordial but firm, don't waver or get pissy when something doesn't go your way, stand up for yourself if she disrespects you in an extreme way but try to let most everything else roll off
- if I were you, I would tell her good morning, have a good day in the morning and at night before bed, tell her you love her once, small gestures, hand on her arm, kiss on her cheek, etc. Nothing over-powering, smothering and don't wait for a reaction, for her to say anything back, say it, MEAN IT and then walk away
- you must show with actions and limit the words, keep consistency. As you do this, you will also be improving yourself, that's a big part of it. 

The 180 works well for detachment and preparing yourself for the worst and especially if you are dealing with someone who has been the offender in the relationship, it helps you gain back control. But if you were the one earlier in the marriage that was the offender, then as aine said, unfortunately the 180 is going to prove the point to your wife. This again, is where it makes it hard for you. You can't smother but you can't ignore either. You have to be firm but considerate. Show your wife and kids what you are made out of through ACTIONS and stay with it. It's going to be hard because she is going to say things that make you mad, doubt what you are doing, etc but don't ignore her, ignore those feelings and plow through. I know you read the 5LL and it's a great book but for now that book is something to utilize more when things are on better ground. It's not a bring back from the brink book. So forget that Love Bank $$it right now. Do what you think is right and keep at it. No gimmicks, no schemes, just work your tail end off to be the best man and father you can be.


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## waynejoey (Jun 8, 2018)

I'm going to stop waffling on my approach. I'm sure you did the same thing when you went through this. We're forging ahead with counseling. If she wanted to cheat she would just up and leave. Her depression is blocking her from feeling anything good. She can't imagine another man right now.

>> if I were you, I would tell her good morning, have a good day in the morning and at night before bed. AGREE

>> tell her you love her once, small gestures, hand on her arm, kiss on her cheek, etc. DISAGREE - this causes problems, I'm cutting this out. Several others on the board have told me to stop doing this.

Also don't get the 180 confused with my behavior from before. I never abandoned her, we both just let our selfishness allow us to drift apart, horse trading the sex for money. This type of 180 will actually be more like how I acted when we first met. Absence makes the heart grow fonder has always worked really well on her. I won't be absent per se, but you know what I mean, I'll be having my own things going on instead of looming on the couch waiting for her to watch TV with me. That's a sign of weakness.


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## SentHereForAReason (Oct 25, 2017)

waynejoey said:


> I'm going to stop waffling on my approach. I'm sure you did the same thing when you went through this. We're forging ahead with counseling. If she wanted to cheat she would just up and leave. Her depression is blocking her from feeling anything good. She can't imagine another man right now.
> 
> >> if I were you, I would tell her good morning, have a good day in the morning and at night before bed. AGREE
> 
> ...


Good, just stick with it. The one sign of affection was a suggestion. You can choose whether you want to do it or not, I meant more for it to be only one time per day if you did do it.

I'm just concerned you are reading these books and programs as I have done and many other have and are following them word for word. It's almost as if you need to read them all and then digest and them integrate them into your own situation with a custom solution. My counselor talked about these programs with me and I asked her why they didn't seem to work and we found out after the fact it was because of the affair and all of that effort and work was rendered useless but in addition to that, my counselor said those programs are meant to reach a broad base and not customized out of the box for your own situation and so they may come across as un-authentic to your wife. 

Keep reading and getting the overall concepts in your mind but I wouldn't necessarily make them your entire roadmap. Have you thought about individual counseling as well?


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## waynejoey (Jun 8, 2018)

Yes we're both doing IC and MC.

I have to stop problem solving, but the books nonetheless have been helpful to give me clarity as to what is going on. This seems like such an obvious problem and solution for me because I'm a dude, and I can google the phrase, and a zillion people have the same story. I just feel like a statistic, but I'm bound by her emotions, and I have to let go of trying to control it.


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## waynejoey (Jun 8, 2018)

Hey ya'll I have a quick update. It took me awhile to get going and be consistent, but I've been doing the 180 for 2 solid days, and boom that fast my wife approached me to have a conversation. This never happens.

So before I was doing the 180, I tried to reach out to her family for help, which was obviously the wrong thing to do because they suck. They have completely two-faced the situation and are fueling her fire.

Basically her mom is taking her side to her face, but trash talked her to my family years ago. This trash talking caused my mom to open up and start getting involved in discussing our marriage, and her mom made the mistake of relaying that to my wife. So now we know she is two faced.

So of course my wife comes to me and I'm supposed to be 100% in the wrong, I'm the psychopath, blah, blah blah. Every time we argue its about the same crap: my mom, money, she's never happy.

So do I use this information about her mom talking behind her back as a nuclear bomb, or just stick to the 180. I'm assuming the latter, since I never get to be right anyway.

To add fuel to the fire, the IC has her convinced that the only reason she married me was because I was "safe" and she was rebounding from a bad marriage. So now my wife has rationalized that maybe there is a better life out there for herself.

What a crock of s***

Luckily she is finally addressing her self-esteem issues which is where a lot of this stems from. I think I'm gonna play it cool and stick to the 180 and act like I'm holding all the cards. Unless anyone thinks this is the time to start opening up. I also don't want her to feel I'm completely disengaged because that got us into trouble in the first place. Its tricky doing the 180 and loving unconditionally at the same time.


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## SentHereForAReason (Oct 25, 2017)

waynejoey said:


> Hey ya'll I have a quick update. It took me awhile to get going and be consistent, but I've been doing the 180 for 2 solid days, and boom that fast my wife approached me to have a conversation. This never happens.
> 
> So before I was doing the 180, I tried to reach out to her family for help, which was obviously the wrong thing to do because they suck. They have completely two-faced the situation and are fueling her fire.
> 
> ...


On the bolded. Again, CONSISTENCY! It might not matter what you do but you have got to stay with consistency, your worst enemy is changing things, flip-flopping and waffling. I feared that with the IC. IC seems to be ending more marriages than it helps. The IC's job is not to save the marriage but to take care of their client.

And Hell No, you don't bring up the stuff about her Mom. You even said it and it's exactly what would happen. It would get turned back on you no matter what you did.


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## waynejoey (Jun 8, 2018)

Well doing counseling sort of undoes the 180 a little because I'm engaging. I'm taking a pit stop and I'm laying out the ultimatums.

I've been doing some research on gaslighting and OMG this is my wife to a TEE.

I think the conversation we have tonight will end the marriage. I am going to go through all the issues that have plagued us for the last 7 years and offer to negotiate on each one. Wish me luck


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## SentHereForAReason (Oct 25, 2017)

waynejoey said:


> Well doing counseling sort of undoes the 180 a little because I'm engaging. I'm taking a pit stop and I'm laying out the ultimatums.
> 
> I've been doing some research on gaslighting and OMG this is my wife to a TEE.
> 
> I think the conversation we have tonight will end the marriage. I am going to go through all the issues that have plagued us for the last 7 years and offer to negotiate on each one. Wish me luck


If you do go through with what you just laid out, I do believe you are correct in that the marriage fast track to divorce faster than it has been, by a longshot. It's my belief when it gets to this point and you are doing MC, those issues and working on things should really only be discussed in MC, when things are as fragile as a sheet of ice on the river in April. If you want to put a stake through the heart of what's left of any chance you have (which may be none anyway) ... go through with your plan. Otherwise, you can still do the 180 outside of counseling and give her space. 

Again, this may have no way of being saved anyway but I'm struggling to see how the seesaw is just all over the place with strategies, emotions, etc.


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