# First love and ex lovers from your youth...



## dixieangel (Jun 28, 2012)

I would really like some male perspective so I can hopefully deal with something that I just can't seem to stop thinking about. Something I know I need to put to rest in my mind, but don't know how to do it....

My husband and I have been together for 8 years, married 4. I'm 45 and he's 48. Early in our relationship he cheated with his ex wife. It didn't work out with the man she left my husband for and she was trying to reconcile. He had unresolved feelings for her, but by spending some time with her, he was able to put them to rest, and decided he wanted to be with me. He promised to gain back my trust. This had never happened to me and it hurt me so badly, I've never been the same. It changed me. I sometimes feel like I should've walked away because I was just his rebound, or was suppose to be only that. 

He promised to be transparent. But about a year after we were together, I found emails to his first love on his work email account. He said that he was keeping their conversations private to "protect the innocent" to which she replied that her intentions were above board. She had a bf. (Come to find out, she was unhappy with him and they split up soon) 

He talked me into getting together with her and her bf. I agreed to let him reconnect with her, because afterall, I'd be there and her bf would be too. It was about an hour drive, so this was a one time thing. They lived too far to be in our lives regularly. And honestly, that isn't what I would've wanted.

Fast forward...My husband and I were separated for 4 months and in this time he had been having intimate conversations with her and found out she was separated from her husband...ALL because of trust issues in their relationship. I found Facebook messages where they were planning to get together. She was back with her husband and he told her that we were reconcilling too and she said she was "soooo happy" we were working things out. (I also found Facebook messages from another college lover of his...he was trying to meet with her too)

Well, I insisted that he have NC with all of these women. He was so angry with me. About 2 weeks ago, we were talking about it and I was voicing my opinion that you can't be friends with ex lovers. He said he disagreed. He got choked up explaining to me that with Dawn (his first love) and male buddies from his high school and college days, he "just wanted to know if they were doing ok". My husband is an alpha male that never gets choked up. Why did he? Is this a sign he has feelings for her? And if so, what can I do about it?


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## dixieangel (Jun 28, 2012)

I forgot to mention that shortly after he met with first love while we were separated, I noticed that her husband friended my husband on Facebook for about a week....then she and her husband deleted their Facebook profiles. I asked my husband what that was about and he said he didn't know...

I believe I know why.....


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## youkiddingme (Jul 30, 2012)

YOur husband is a cheater and he is playing the field. Ex lovers are just easier game for him. I would go into quiet detective mode for a few months. I have a feeling he spends a lot of time looking for opportunities to cheat. And He is playing you. Do not believe him.


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

My observation is often times in our 40's we take a look at our lives and sometimes decide to try to recapture the joy, passion and freedom of our youth. With today's technology it's pretty easy to look up old friends. Reconnecting brings back a lot of good feelings. This makes it extremely dangerous though. 

How can you the current spouse in middle age, with kids, careers and mortgages compete with the memories of a relationship that occurred before all these stressors? A memory that has prbably been enhanced with time to seem better than it actually was at the time.

My suggestion is that when trying to reconnect with old friends it always be in the context of you as a couple. No private communication, particulary, when it involves opposite sexes.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

MaritimeGuy said:


> My observation is often times in our 40's we take a look at our lives and sometimes decide to try to recapture the joy, passion and freedom of our youth. With today's technology it's pretty easy to look up old friends. Reconnecting brings back a lot of good feelings. This makes it extremely dangerous though.
> 
> How can you the current spouse in middle age, with kids, careers and mortgages compete with the memories of a relationship that occurred before all these stressors? A memory that has prbably been enhanced with time to seem better than it actually was at the time.
> 
> My suggestion is that when trying to reconnect with old friends it always be in the context of you as a couple. No private communication, particulary, when it involves opposite sexes.


:iagree: especially the part about the "enhancements". It's amazing how so many people think of past loves and only think about the good feelings they had without any tempering of the negatives that happened. There's a reason it didn't work out you know.

I hate to say it Dixie but your husband is being a cad (at best) and a cheater at worst. I'd have a real issue if my wife was going out trying to "refriend" ex's from her past. She's bound to see them (high school/college reuinions etc) but to seek them out. There's something not quite right about that.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Not a male perspective, Dixie, but the cheating changes everything...now, it's no longer just hooking up with first loves, etc. He's cheated...


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

He’s deceiving you and lying to you with his secret life. He’s deluding you, which means you are being betrayed. It’s a betrayal of what you hold dear in the deepest parts of you. It’s the betrayal that hurts in whatever form it takes, an affair or other types of deceit and delusions.

Google the emotions of betrayal to understand what it is you are going through. You may well also be going through the emotions of jealousy as it is your H who is chasing other women. Jealousy and betrayal create a real mixture of very deep and painful emotions that can be exceedingly difficult to manage and process.



The thing is while he’s around you those negative emotions will always be in you. They are not going to go away unless he goes away or stops his behaviour. To do the latter he would need to become a different man with different values and beliefs to what he has now.



How likely is it that the latter that will happen? Is he a man capable of changing his values and beliefs? Because if he doesn’t, while you are with him you will always have those painful emotions inside of you to cope with on a daily basis.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Reconnecting with EX Lovers ... Ummmm ... Just NO


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Entropy3000 said:


> Reconnecting with EX Lovers ... Ummmm ... Just NO


But surely that's his call! It will come down to what he values and believes in the most.

For example contact with his ex lovers or his wife’s happiness and emotional well being. He’s going to have to sacrifice either his ex lovers to be with his wife or his wife to be with his ex lovers. Unless Dixie plans on staying his Plan B so he gets to have both.


Only he can make that judgement call on his values and beliefs, what he values and believes in the most. The quicker Dixie gives him the choice, me or them, the quicker she will know exactly where she stands in his heart and how much her happiness does or doesn’t mean to him.


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## dixieangel (Jun 28, 2012)

Yes, it hurts me more deeply than I can explain. To know that my husband seeks out ex lovers. I walk around every day thinking I'm just not what my husband really wants. Or at least, I'm not enough. He needs to be single. Doesn't matter how hard I try to make things work if he's not willing.

When I read what I just posted it hit home for me...guess I just wanted a little validation from others.

Thank you all for taking time to respond.


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## dixieangel (Jun 28, 2012)

It really doesn't count when they really don't believe they should get rid of the exes. So me insisting on it makes him resentful of me and probably just more secretive. It shouldn't be that way. I'm so tired of feeling the way I do. It just amazes me that he would put exes in my face after he cheated on me..then promised transparency..and even lied about that.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

dixieangel said:


> *It really doesn't count when they really don't believe they should get rid of the exes. * So me insisting on it makes him resentful of me and probably just more secretive. It shouldn't be that way. I'm so tired of feeling the way I do. It just amazes me that he would put exes in my face after he cheated on me..then promised transparency..and even lied about that.


Absolutely true.

You are having a clash of values and belief systems. It’s akin to a religious battle, a right fight.

Of course most people on the planet will say you’re in the right and he’s in the wrong. But those most people don’t count to him and while they may make you feel good they just don’t make the situation any different.



So it all comes down to what you are prepared to tolerate and sacrifice to stay married to him. These things are a “balance”, leaving and foregoing whatever it is he provides you with can be just as tough a choice to make as staying.



And it is the same for him. If you give him the ultimatum, will he chose you or will he chose his exes? Will he lose you and what you provide to him to keep his exes, or will he lose his exes and what they provide to him to keep you?


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## dixieangel (Jun 28, 2012)

I did give him the ultimatum. It was a huge fight too. He did it to "shut me up". What's worse, and why I'm posting this here now, is that I've lost even more intimacy with him..he's more distant and doesn't talk to me much ..then when he got choked up a few days ago because of wanting to keep in touch with exes, well it pushed me over the edge. 

I've been guilty of being too nice for too long.


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## Goldmember357 (Jan 31, 2012)

he likes her he also cheated on you before that shows major character flaw. I had something similar recently not to long ago i came back into contact with good friend and ex after not having talked to her in a long time. She showed interest in me again i had to end it as it hurt my wifes feelings and i told my wife and i ended contact with her. I have never cheated on my wife nor would i but if i had remain in contact with her it would be playing with a loaded gun (imo) that just creates opportunity.


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## Juicer (May 2, 2012)

When I originally got married, I talked with my wife about this. And told her, I don't want her to connect with any old lovers from school or anything like that, and I won't do it either. 

There is a reason those feelings should not be revisited. Simply because I have never heard of this ending positivly. 

Like in your situation. Husband finds old high school lover, and begins talking with her, and tries to get the wife to talk with her. And it ends with infidelity. 

These type of reconnections only end in heart ache. Either a EA or PA. Or just the person having to go NC to stop from committing an affair.


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## dixieangel (Jun 28, 2012)

Update:

I tried another discussion about his exes being in his life and how it makes me feel, EAs, boundaries, etc. My husband told me that he doesn't need me telling him who he can and can't talk to..that he knows right from wrong...my feelings don't matter to him anymore because everything hurts my feelings. I explained about how I've found that the general concensus is that it's wrong to have them in your life when you are married. He just said that people here on this forum are miserable people spreading their misery around and I should be doing something constructive instead of wasting time here....

To top this off, this afternoon he yelled at me before he went to work about not informing him I was out of money and needed his ATM card for gas. When I went to put his card in his car in the parking lot (because I didn't want to disturb him on the job), I locked my keys in my car. I went in to use his phone to call a wrecker service, then he proceeded to yell at me in front of his employees that we can't afford it and I've been blowing money etc etc. As if I wasn't feeling bad enough......How unprofessional too. His employees didn't want to hear that. I could see it made them uncomfortable and I'm sure they have less respect for him too because of it. I'm really crushed...sleeping in the guest room tonight...

So, until I can get myself prepared to leave, I may as well go out making my point...

Can't beat them, join them...doesn't matter anyway. Ex male lovers, here I come....and he can say nothing because I can say the same thing....i know right from wrong too.....

I've had a bad day...


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

Sorry you had such a bad day.

The bigger issue than your husband being in contact with certain women is his complete disregard for your feelings in general. Staying in contact with these women is just one way he's demonstrating that. 

I hope you're just venting when you say ex male lovers here I come. You're so vulnerable now at this point any relationship with another man is a recipe for disaster...for you, the other guy and even though you may not care at this point your husband. If that's the route you want to go I can't recommend strongly enough free yourself of your husband first...then start looking for a man that will love you the way you want to be loved.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

dixieangel said:


> It really doesn't count when they really don't believe they should get rid of the exes.


Bingo. It's a FUNDAMENTAL difference that you have: he thinks it's fine and you don't. It's a massive, massive difference of opinion.



dixieangel said:


> I tried another discussion about his exes being in his life and how it makes me feel, EAs, boundaries, etc. *My husband told me that he doesn't need me telling him who he can and can't talk to*..that he knows right from wrong...my feelings don't matter to him anymore because everything hurts my feelings.


All cheaters say that when they get called out on their bad behavior.

My bet is if you started talking and hanging out with and emailing and reconnecting with your old flames, he wouldn't like it one bit.

I think if you run into an ex, you can be be cordial, but to go beyond that and remain friendly and in constant contact with an ex is absolutely asking trouble for any relationship you are in. It's completely unfair to the primary relationship and does nothing but cause problems and destruction.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

WTF is the matter with this man.

Doesn't sound like he's satisfied with what he has.

What was the reason for the break-up of his first marriage? Do you know?


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## dixieangel (Jun 28, 2012)

I was wife number 3. All of his previous relationships/marriages the woman falls in love with another man and cheats on him PA or EA.........seems my husband lasts about 8 years at most with a woman then he's done and ready to move on to the next. I believe he has NPD.

My last post I was venting. I will not go out and use a man to get back at or make a point to my husband. That is a horrible thing to do. 

Most of this day, I've felt like I have a hole through my chest and I have been in tears. Now, I'm feeling angry and wondering why I let someone who doesn't give a damn hurt me. Why would I waste my energy...


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## dixieangel (Jun 28, 2012)

When I found the Facebook messages with his college days lover planning to meet up, I did tell him that I was going to go out to dinner and have drinks with my old bf that I dated before I met him...it didn't go over very well...he said that wasn't a good thing to do and that's when I told him that I found his messages.. he was planning to do that so what's the difference...at least I was telling him about it and not keeping it a secret... I had him then. It hasn't made a difference though. He won't admit he's wrong...ever.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

dixieangel said:


> I was wife number 3. All of his previous relationships/marriages the woman falls in love with another man and cheats on him PA or EA.........


Have you actually verified that? Or do you have it on good authority (besides what he is saying)? I wonder if in his past relationships/marriages if he stayed in contact with his exes and sought out other women like he is doing in yours. 

If he never admits he's wrong, you have bigger issues. Basically it comes down to either he's willing to meet you halfway or he isn't. If he isn't, then you either accept that this is how he is or you move on.

How long have you been married/with him?


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Dixie...from what I'm reading here, your H doesn't give a sh!t about how you feel or what you want. A friend of mine is in a similar situation; she writes him letters, only to have them balled up and thrown in her face. Then it's day after day of the silent treatment. She calls me in tears saying "But he knows how I feel". "Ya, sure," I tell her, "he knows...but he doesn't care...".

You really need to move on from this man before he destroys you...


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## dixieangel (Jun 28, 2012)

Yes. I asked him about how all of his relationships ended. They always ended with her finding someone else. Both of his ex wives fell in love with another man and cheated on him. Both his other marriages lasted about 8 years...it's been 8 years for me now. He is done with me. The relationship has played out.

My husband has NPD. I am in the discarding phase. I have to leave soon because yes...narcissists will destroy you. It is heartbreaking to wake up and realize one day that you've wasted years of your life on someone who cannot and has not ever really loved you...and they have brought you down so low you think you can't function anymore.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

CandieGirl said:


> A friend of mine is in a similar situation; she writes him letters, only to have them balled up and thrown in her face. Then it's day after day of the silent treatment. She calls me in tears saying "But he knows how I feel". "Ya, sure," I tell her, "he knows...but he doesn't care...".
> 
> You really need to move on from this man before he destroys you...


Gosh that's awful and sounds like my ex. :/



dixieangel said:


> Yes. I asked him about how all of his relationships ended. They always ended with her finding someone else. Both of his ex wives fell in love with another man and cheated on him. Both his other marriages lasted about 8 years...it's been 8 years for me now. He is done with me. The relationship has played out.
> 
> My husband has NPD. I am in the discarding phase. I have to leave soon because yes...narcissists will destroy you.


Does he ever take the blame in his past relationships for things he did wrong? Has he been diagnosed with NPD or you just know? You say he is done with you, but maybe you are done with it. Certainly seems you are at the end of your rope. Was he always in touch with his exes or is it a recent thing? Is he much older than you?


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## dixieangel (Jun 28, 2012)

No, he never takes any blame. He hasn't been diagnosed but he has all the traits and even admitted that he does---(when he was trying to get me back.) Sadly, no he hasn't always been in touch with them...these high school/college women are since he's been with me..well, i found some messages with one woman and she was saying things about being around when he was in his 1st marriage..something about fathering kids outside of marriage, no less. Makes me think he was cheating with her on his 1st wife. He is only 3 years older than me.

Today he told me that he doesn't feel well and his change in behavior has nothing to do with me....and I told him that is BS.


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

My wife knows if she ever saw here former lover behind my back it would be over immediately.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

This isn't really a question about whether exes can be friends, or not. That's another debate for another thread.

This is about your husband maintaining contact, secretly no less, with an old love who he cheated on you with.

Honestly it sounds like your husband never truly fell out of love with the ex. Just because he realized that he should no longer be with her does not mean that he fell out of love.


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## dixieangel (Jun 28, 2012)

jaquen said:


> This isn't really a question about whether exes can be friends, or not. That's another debate for another thread.
> 
> This is about your husband maintaining contact, secretly no less, with an old love who he cheated on you with.
> 
> Honestly it sounds like your husband never truly fell out of love with the ex. Just because he realized that he should no longer be with her does not mean that he fell out of love.



My question now is, is a narcissistic man/woman really capable of love? I've read alot about this the last few years, but lately the articles I've read say that's not even possible...and the reason goes back to poor attachment in infancy\childhood.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tonyarz (Sep 15, 2012)

I met my wife that exact way. She was a high school lover and she found me on facebook when we were 30. One thing led to another. Today is our 12th wedding anniversary.


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## Numb in Ohio (Oct 31, 2011)

I found out my H was in contact with his ex hs gf our whole 9 year marriage ( and for 4 months with another woman)... when confronted, he did ( as far as I know) cut off contact.... but to me, the damage has been done. 

I am also 3rd wife to him,, and he told me all that went wrong with his previous marriage, ( said she was cheating),,, I called and talked to his previous wife, she told me a completely different story,,, "HE" had been cheating on her, with this same hs gf.....and other women as well. ( she has emails to prove this). He has since confessed to me that he did cheat on her, but has never admitted this to her..... even with her proof. 

Please don't take his word, unless you know it to be totally true....


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

tonyarz said:


> I met my wife that exact way. She was a high school lover and she found me on facebook when we were 30. One thing led to another. Today is our 12th wedding anniversary.


I didn't know Facebook was around 12 years ago? :scratchhead:


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## thunderstruck (May 9, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> I didn't know Facebook was around 12 years ago? :scratchhead:


Launched in 2004...according to Wiki.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> I didn't know Facebook was around 12 years ago? :scratchhead:


It wasn't.


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## tonyarz (Sep 15, 2012)

sorry, I didn't mean to say facebook. lol. She found me on classmates.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

AFEH said:


> *But surely that's his call! It will come down to what he values and believes in the most.*
> 
> For example contact with his ex lovers or his wife’s happiness and emotional well being. He’s going to have to sacrifice either his ex lovers to be with his wife or his wife to be with his ex lovers. Unless Dixie plans on staying his Plan B so he gets to have both.
> 
> ...


Your statement is true for all things under heaven.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

tonyarz said:


> sorry, I didn't mean to say facebook. lol. She found me on classmates.


Oh. Sorry you got involved in the classmates scam.


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## dixieangel (Jun 28, 2012)

Week before last Wednesday, I was at an MD appt with my husband. When we were on the way out he got a phone call on his cell that he was hesitant to answer..then he did and said "hello hello". After a few seconds, he hung up. I asked who it was...he said unknown number and it was a recording, "saying I can't talk right now".

He is suppose to be off on Wednesdays but says he has to go in for a few hours in the morning because he doesn't trust his crew to handle the business. He will make appts in the afternoons. Yesterday, we were at another MD appt, about the same time of day, he gets a call which is work related. As soon as he hangs up, he gets a text alert=bottle popping sound. He doesn't get mail alerts and it wasn't a voicemail alert. He is looking at his phone and I walk and stand next to him to see who it's from. He then turns the phone the other direction and puts it in his pocket. I checked later when he was napping and there was nothing..I ask about it and get screamed at..he's very defensive. 

Today, he produces a sheet of paper that looks like text messages with times. There was no text at that time. He crumples the paper and throws it at me....now I'm schizo...imagining things.....or gaslighting at it's finest. Oh, I asked to see the messages from the female coworker that came next on the list...he deleted them. He said because she was flirting with him..she asked if he had a package at his office..she keeps them going there so she has an excuse to see him....


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## FirstYearDown (Sep 15, 2011)

Good God! 

Stop allowing your husband to date others while he is married to you! 

Stand up for yourself and be prepared to leave if he will not stop contacting other women.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Hey dixie. So your husband wants to screw whoever he can manage to get away with it and have you at home waiting for him. Of course you know this already so it's not a solved mystery. But in case denial is part of your MO then yes he's thinking purely of himself and feel entitled to get away with whatever you let him get away with. Not only that but every disrespectful thing he does to you is something that tares you down in his mind.

What to do? Well I don't know if you've heard of 180 but it's kind of the tough love equivalent regarding infidelity. One concept is you have to be willing to lose something in order to save it. In this case your relationship.

My opinion however is you do 180 expecting to leave this piece of sh!t and I hope you do leave him and I hope he knows it was his fault. You deserve to be treated better than he's treating you. I hope you believe this and don't fall into an insecure position clinging onto him. That can creep up on you when some jackarse treats you like this. No it's not because he's SOOOO special. It's because of the chemicals in you brain so use reasoning and not emotion. 

Good luck


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## dixieangel (Jun 28, 2012)

I am doing 180. Getting my things in order and putting money back. I do have a plan to leave. Thank you for the advice, Thundarr.


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## OhGeesh (Jan 5, 2010)

No offense your Husband seems like a complete tool and a-hole!! I would look for a exit plan!!


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## LividInTexas (Mar 12, 2014)

I am the "cheating" husband to which she refers to...
First just let me say that I have spent the last 8 years defending myself from her constant accusations of cheating, spying, checking facebook, checking emails, and snatching my phone every time I left it unattended. In my defense, the only reason this person found me is because dixieangel (Mickie) went online using my name and searched for her. One day she connected with me and we ended up sending several emails back and forth reminiscing about our youth. I showed each email to my wife when I got home. I had nothing to hide.


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## LividInTexas (Mar 12, 2014)

Dixie mentions that we went and met with my former girlfriend and her boyfriend but she leaves out several important details. During my email conversation with the girlfriend, the subject of whether I still smoked pot came up. I said I still did but I was having a hard time finding it. She said she could get it and we talked about splitting some.


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## LividInTexas (Mar 12, 2014)

As I mentioned before I showed my wife every email we sent that day as I had nothing to hide. Anyway...before I made the commitment to make the hour drive to their house, I asked Mickie if she was ok with it and to make sure there would be no accusations I asked her to go with me. She agreed. I was above board with everything and Mickie was in total agreement.


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## LividInTexas (Mar 12, 2014)

Even though I was completely honest about everything and Dixieangel smoked the stuff we picked up, and I didn't see the ex again for years, I have had to constantly live with the accusations that I paraded my first love in front of my current wife even though she agreed. You people need to stop passing judgement without knowing the entire story.


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

All we have is one persons side of the story. Most of the people here are here because we have been destroyed by our SO, so if we are a little judgmental it's because of all the BS we have been put thru. Sorry for what you have been thru.


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## HuggyBear (Aug 4, 2012)

When I read stuff like this, I ALWAYS wonder how or why anyone would get back together with an ex.

After any of my relationships had seemed to be at the end, I would try to work it out until I or my partner found someone new, or it became clear that what we thought we meant to each other was untrue.

Once that happened, I would always "draw the line", and go full arson, burning every f'in bridge between us.

The only time an ex tries to contact me now, it's always about trying to get money... at which point I turn the entire garbage transaction over to my wife, who can always offer them a job, or a rather detailed and legal contract for a loan.

When it's over, BURN YOUR BRIDGES. Avoid the "ex trap".


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

LividinTexas,

How did you find this thread?

Do you love Dixie?

What do you make of the narcissist diagnosis?

What are the chances of fixing your marriage?


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## LividInTexas (Mar 12, 2014)

LongWalk...yes I love her very much. Always have and always will. Sadly I can never forgive her for what she's done so the chances of fixing our marriage are zero. Look at the thread I started for an explanation of how I discovered this. People are calling me a troll and I am about to enlighten them.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

youkiddingme said:


> YOur husband is a cheater and he is playing the field. Ex lovers are just easier game for him. I would go into quiet detective mode for a few months. I have a feeling he spends a lot of time looking for opportunities to cheat. And He is playing you. Do not believe him.


:iagree:

Sorry cheaters don't change. Time to find someone else


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## CH (May 18, 2010)

First love and ex-lovers from my youth, you couldn't pay me enough money to get back with them EVER.

1st love, ha, that *bleep* cheated on me so much and was so open about it. I was so stupid and young and kept taking her back. She slept with EVERYONE ELSE but ME!!!!

Yeah, I've got some issues 

My 2nd love was no better lol. I guess she got the 411 from the 1st girl that I was a doormat and the textbook nice guy. I worshiped the very ground that they walked on, :scratchhead:


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## 45188 (Sep 13, 2012)

Find somebody new, Ohio. Guys like that are a dime a dozen.


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