# Wife won't work, moody



## Jack99 (Nov 21, 2010)

I'm glad I found this site. The tone is helpful and supportive. I've been through a few posts and even tried to make a couple of helpful responses, although I'm the last one to claim success in marriage. 

My story: I've been married for over 20 years. My wife is a singer, and has made money on it, certainly not enough to live on though. It's very part-timish. She likes it - who wouldn't? Music and make your own hours. I work full time as a software developer and make quite reasonable money, although the career itself is more for younger guys, and I'm now 53. 
The job is demanding and vacation days precious few. Our daughter is in a state college, third year. 

I'm starting to look at retirement. We don't have much of a nest-egg, although we do have a good deal of equity in the house. We do have a good emergency day fund going on.

We've had a lot of problems throughout our marriage. We're at different levels culturally, sexually and temperamentally. I'm low-key, she's quick to the trigger. I like to joke around, she's serious. She's a perfectionist, I'm not so much. etc. I like sex...etc. She's never agreed to go to a marriage counselor. 

I kept it going for the daughter. Now I'm keeping it going because if I get divorced, I will get killed on alimony (in my state, alimony means you essentially become a slave to your ex). 

So, at least I'm trying to get her to be self-sufficient, in case I fly the coop. I basically told her, you can't depend on me. As always, she clammed up and then got p*ss*d off. 

I know she won't do anything. She never has, it's not about to change now. She'll stick it out. 

What are my options? I feel trapped.


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## greeneyeddolphin (May 31, 2010)

Well, in all honesty, if my boyfriend told me I couldn't depend on him after 20 years of a relationship in which I was depending on him, I'd be p*ssed too. The pattern was set, and now you're trying to change things on her, seemingly out of nowhere. 

Now, I'm not saying you're wrong here, either. If you're not happy, you're not happy. It does seem very unfair that you're ready to think about retiring, and you can't because you don't really have the money for it. But, you do have to acknowledge your role in this part of the situation. You've had 20 years in which to make her take fiscal responsibility in the marriage, and you didn't. So it's not entirely her fault that you are now in this situation. 

Even though you think she'll never agree to marriage counseling, I think you need to require it. Tell her either you two get counseling and some changes get made or you're filing for divorce. 

You're worried about alimony, but the fact is, you're already carrying her, so I don't really see how it makes much difference. Yes you'd pay more in alimony, but it seems whether you stay or go, you'd still be stuck working anyway.


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

This is unfortunately why men shouldn't support stay at home wives in an alimony state. It's basically like you adopted her rather than got an equal partner.


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## Jack99 (Nov 21, 2010)

Astruck, I suppose I wasn't clear, in the interests of keeping things brief. Just as I've tried to get her to work countless times, I've tried to get her to come to marriage counseling countless times. It's far from out of nowhere. Telling her not to depend on me was a fair warning to her that I'm getting fed up and could disappear on her. I don't want to leave her high and dry with no means of support. I want her to be able to fend for herself, if I do take off. 

And if I didn't do it more often than I did (and I did, a lot), it's because she gets p*ss*d off and blows up and makes life miserable, each and every time. 

As far as "requiring" her to go to marriage counseling, I'm not sure I follow. How do you propose I achieve that? I have been unable to influence her in virtually any area. Except one, which was to convince her to stop her buying sprees after many years of being unable to save. This took effect a few years ago and at least she's got her spending side under control, allowing us to start to put away a few bucks for later. 

You may not be aware of how draconian alimony laws are, particularly my state of MA which has the lowest divorce rate in the nation. If we divorce, I'm effectively required to support her at our current standard of living for the rest of her life. It means I need support two households instead of one, and lose my house to her. If I lose my job, I still have to pay, or end up in jail. I would have to pay the lawyers every time we go to court. The formula is 1/3 wife, 1/3 uncle sam, and 1/3 yourself. I don't make enough to split it 3 ways like that. I would be virtually impoverished and with no hope of any kind of life, unless she remarried, which she would never be stupid enough to do. 

If things are bad now, it would be horrific then. At least now I can contemplate retirement at age 70.

Thanks for trying.


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

i wouldnt see anything wrong with you flying the coop on her. i think its sad that after working your entire life you cant retire and enjoy your money. If she has allowed herself to become dependent on you then she has no one but herself to blame. A nice reality check is exactly what she needs. Women have equal rights for a reason. no more excuses.


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## greeneyeddolphin (May 31, 2010)

Jack99 said:


> As far as "requiring" her to go to marriage counseling, I'm not sure I follow. How do you propose I achieve that? I have been unable to influence her in virtually any area. Except one, which was to convince her to stop her buying sprees after many years of being unable to save. This took effect a few years ago and at least she's got her spending side under control, allowing us to start to put away a few bucks for later.


As I said, you tell her that either she goes with you or you're leaving, and then you follow through if she won't go. I understand that you are concerned with how alimony may make it hard for you to survive, and you're right, I'm not familiar with alimony laws. I didn't ask for it from my ex, I just wanted to be rid of him, so I never bothered to learn anything about it. But, you have to figure out what you want from life, and what's more important. 

As for the out of nowhere, I didn't mean that this was out of nowhere, but that it's probably how she sees it. The fact that you have brought this up numerous times, and then let it drop when she gets so upset...it's probably led her to believe that you're all talk, no action. So, if/when you do finally leave she will think it's out of nowhere. Or she will at least act that way. 

Maybe instead of just waiting until you're thoroughly fed up and then just leaving, perhaps you should try to talk to her again. But instead of letting it go when she gets angry, force the discussion. Even if it leads to an argument, it's better than what you've been doing. If you're willing to fight about it, that might be what opens her eyes to the fact that you really mean what you keep saying and that she finally needs to sit up and take notice.


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## takris (Sep 22, 2010)

I can relate to some of the factors in your situation. I guess I would be described also as all talk and not action also, but I think there's a reason I'm called a Bulldog at work. Its just that marriage presents some of us with these unwinnable issues. Basically, my wife only works because I will not accept no as an answer. 

I started as a software designer, but the skills learned in project management suited me also to move into corporate management. Have you ever considered taking a sideways path (for less stress to yourself)?

Most would disagree and say I'm heartless for suggesting, but is it an option to begin planning to move to another state if you feel that divorce might be an option? We're talking about alot of money here. Yeah, I know the idea is way out there.

For a real suggestion, I think you're going to have to push this in small increments. Don't let up until you get some objective agreed upon. Maybe start with looking and filling out a few applications. Next might be a one day a week low stress job. She's likely just afraid since the absence has been so long.


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## Jack99 (Nov 21, 2010)

Thanks for all your input. The basic message I'm getting is to stick with it, and not drop it for the sake of harmony. 

She's nervous because of language (English isn't her native language, but she's better than a lot of non-native speakers) and also has a medical condition which I can't get too specific about, but it's not serious enough to prevent her from working. 

Takris, I actually have thought about moving, and have suggested several options. But again it's a huge deal to her and I meet a ton of resistance. Which reminds me, maybe I should move before she gets a job. 

Project management is something I have considered, but I actually find that more stressful than programming. You don't mind it, huh? 

Astuckgirl - I can't really threaten to, or actually leave her unless I do it in a really drastic way, i.e. disappear. The reason is if she ever figures out how easy it is to turn me into her own personal lottery ticket just by filing, I'm screwed. I have to be really careful. I also want to be around for my daughter.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Go talk to a lawyer - she is literally living off you like a parasite. He will tell you if the strategy below will work.

Change jobs. Don't tell her. Take a serious pay cut for 1 year and then file. Your alimony will likely be reduced/drastically reduced by that amount. 

I also believe that if she is able to work, refuses to that could factor into alimony. 





Jack99 said:


> Thanks for all your input. The basic message I'm getting is to stick with it, and not drop it for the sake of harmony.
> 
> She's nervous because of language (English isn't her native language, but she's better than a lot of non-native speakers) and also has a medical condition which I can't get too specific about, but it's not serious enough to prevent her from working.
> 
> ...


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Go talk to a lawyer - she is literally living off you like a parasite. He will tell you if the strategy below will work.
> 
> Change jobs. Don't tell her. Take a serious pay cut for 1 year and then file. Your alimony will likely be reduced/drastically reduced by that amount.
> 
> I also believe that if she is able to work, refuses to that could factor into alimony.


They actually do "impute" income potential to the spouse.

For example, my ex could be a computer programmer. That would give her earning potential of 60-70 grand.

The formula still bites - just not as bad as it might seem.


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## takris (Sep 22, 2010)

Jack99 said:


> Thanks for all your input. The basic message I'm getting is to stick with it, and not drop it for the sake of harmony.
> 
> Takris, I actually have thought about moving, and have suggested several options. But again it's a huge deal to her and I meet a ton of resistance. Which reminds me, maybe I should move before she gets a job.
> 
> ...


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## lime (Jul 3, 2010)

Is there any way that selling the house could help the situation? If it turns into a big chunk of cash, then maybe that could be factored into the monthly alimony payments--or, at the very least, it would be divided in half, and you could use your half to pay off alimony while you continued working. This would give you some time to get your feet on the ground with a new apartment, while making sure that she has enough money in savings to support herself for awhile. Dividing money up is always easier than dividing property; afterall, if you don't sell then she could get the whole house AND you'd have to pay the same in alimony.

Out of curiosity, is your wife the type of person to take you for all you're worth in a divorce? Or will she be upset, but make reasonable demands?

If you do divorce soon, there is one good thing that will come out of it--you will get loads more financial aid from your daughter's school!


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## Jack99 (Nov 21, 2010)

This is really, really helpful. Thank you all. 

Lime, I'm not keen on the idea of selling the house so I can pay her alimony. I bought it with money I earned. I don't want to burn it all off on alimony if I can avoid it. 

What type of person is my wife? I would like to say she wouldn't take me to the cleaners - but I'm not sure. She will need the money, since she frankly doesn't have very much earning power. Why would she choose to be poor? In her position, I would want to max out. 

Mem11363 - Thanks for also for the suggestion - but don't want to take a pay cut. It took me a long time to get to where I'm at - I'm almost in a "golden handcuff" situation, given my age and certain skills I have which are more valuable at my company at most others. I also I understand that the courts look at what you *could* be earning, not what you are earning - the "imputed income" Conrad was talking about. Her imputed income will be very low. 

Financial aid for my daughter is a not a huge concern. She's goes to a state school, so the tuition/fees are about 1/2 a private school. Plus, she's an RA so room and board is paid, and she is picking up a certain amount in college loans and other small scholarships. She only has one year to go - she will almost certainly be out of school before anything happens. 

Takris, I believe you are correct. We *are* talking about a lot of money. Not millions in my case, but still plenty. And for a lifetime. (side note: an attempt was made to reform mass alimony laws last year - however the politician in charge of putting the legislation through is a divorce lawyer, so obviously it has gone nowhere after two years). These draconion laws are like having the sword of Democles hanging over your head. It makes it impossible to negotiate from a position of strength. It helps enormously to hear this location coming from someone else. I also like your self-improvement suggestion. I have a Master's in IT, just graduated this year. I believe it's never too late. 

I feel for your situation with your wife (or is it ex-wife?). It's an awful thing to have to go through. What is your current situation? 

Thank you so much. Thanks to everyone who has replied. You are all *great*.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Jack,
Have you actually spoken to a lawyer? Until you do that - you won't have the facts as they apply to 'your' situation.



Jack99 said:


> This is really, really helpful. Thank you all.
> 
> Lime, I'm not keen on the idea of selling the house so I can pay her alimony. I bought it with money I earned. I don't want to burn it all off on alimony if I can avoid it.
> 
> ...


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## Jack99 (Nov 21, 2010)

Mem11363 - yes, I did speak to a lawyer. She agreed on the 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 rule - and suggested to start the paperwork immediately. I thought that was kind of rushing things. Shouldn't there be mandatory counseling, or something, in non-violent situations? How many marriages could've been saved? 

But, I believe you are correct - it's time to talk again. A different one.


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## greeneyeddolphin (May 31, 2010)

It's good that you don't want to take a paycut in order to pay less alimony, because I do believe they could count that against you. I know, for my ex with child support, if I even hint that he quit a decent paying job to take one that pays less in order to pay less child support, they investigate heavily. And unfortunately, in those situations, they don't look very hard at the "why", it's pretty much a "did they?" kind of thing. If they find you quit a good job and took a "not good" job, they just automatically assume that you did it to pay less, even if you didn't. 

One thought, that wouldn't save you anything on alimony, probably, but might on other expenses...you mentioned you would have to pay for the lawyers every time you go to court. Did you mean both yours and hers? If so, is that because you filed? I'm thinking, if it's both yours and hers and because you filed, I would consider making life so miserable that she files...of course, then she would have to get a job, or she'd be using your money anyway, at least initially.


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## Jack99 (Nov 21, 2010)

Astruck,

thanks for your continuing interest. No one has filed yet and I hope no one does, at least until we're in another state with a residency requirement fulfilled. I desperately do *not* want her to file on me until then, because at that point I become bound by law under the threat of jail to hand her over 1/2 my after tax income - for life. Even worse, if I'm out of a job, or get laid off and and am forced to accept a far lower paying job, I will still have to pay her what the judge originally ordered, or hire a lawyer to try to talk a hostile judge into reducing alimony. I know it's hard to believe a system that rewards a spouse for doing no real work - with a lifetime free ride on a stressed spouses back. However, that is the way the law works here. The reason is because the prolonged and unfair alimony keeps the divorce courts busy and the lawyers collecting fees for far longer than if there was some reasonable limit on alimony.


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## takris (Sep 22, 2010)

Jack99 said:


> This is really, really helpful. Thank you all.
> 
> I feel for your situation with your wife (or is it ex-wife?). It's an awful thing to have to go through. What is your current situation?
> 
> Thank you so much. Thanks to everyone who has replied. You are all *great*.


M wife is currently attending weekly therapy, but I'm privately skeptical. Good thing is my newest location is in a state that is very fair in such situations. Plus, she's a part time nurse. When we discussed divorce, she realized that she doesn't have any basic skills for day to day living. She even rarely pumps her own gas, and wouldn't have a clue about balancing checkbooks, paying bills or taxes. 

Next year, I'll have three in college. I took nearly a 50% pay cut during the downturn, but the bonuses return next year. It'll be enough to pay tuition and temporarily support two households if necessary.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Jack,

In the state where I live, I could have been stuck with a 2 thousand dollar/month payment for life.

I managed to get her to waive maintenance and take 500,000 of our $660,000 in assets/property.

It's only been 3.5 years and she's back trying to say I hid assets.

Too funny.

If you can get her to "waive maintenance", you'll thank me.


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## Hipocrates (Nov 22, 2011)

Take the money away. Make all the money decisions. She is evidently not a partner. If you do this, keep a hawks eye on her, she'll have an affair within 6 months and then there goes her alimony. Probably sooner is she is a prescription drug addict. You'll probably have to produce "clear and convincing evidence" in court, that means lots of documentation, pictures, receipts ec. In this day and age, both partners need to work and pull equally towards common goals. There is no room for one person to stay at home and not contribute equally to the partnership and marriage. Today it's "All hands on deck". If everything is going your way; you're not pulling hard enough.


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## Hipocrates (Nov 22, 2011)

Remember, you can't make anyone do anything. Regardless of how pursuasive you are. You are right Green Eyes, trying to change now after 20+ years just isn't going to happen and Jack is supporting her now so what's the difference. No one can make you happy but you. Best of luck to all of us.


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