# Being clear



## LoveMouse (Apr 22, 2012)

Been divorced for 9mo now. 4 kids, only the boys talk to me. The oldest boy has always wanted to come live w/ me but she was granted joint legal custody w/ her as the custodial parent.
The judge warned her about witholding extra time from me and the kids but she's down to using it as a punishment for us all.
Work has slowed down to a crawl so I'm not working. I just sent an application to a group of pro bono lawyers for custody of my 2 sons and 1 daughter.
I feel it should be an easy case but what do you think?
Both boys want to live with me, ages 15 and 13.
I drive the boys to 95% of all social events, school functions and church. I suport 95% of their intrests, including the Science fair where my 13yrold just won State!!  I even support their relationship w/ their mother. I (being a men) sewed my son's costume for his play (tinman) Our lives have changed so much we aren't allowed to do 1/2 of the stuff we used to and it's b/c mom makes the boys stay home on "her time" no matter if she there or not.
She remarried 33 days after the divorce to a man she only knew for 7 mo. He has his own issues w/ my boys and doesn't do anything around the house except play computer games. My X is also into computer games and doesn't spend time w/ the kids. She'll play on her days off while the kids are forced to clean house.
I take the kids to church every Sunday I have them.
The X has her father take them.
I live w/ my mom and can support the kids, I have insurance, I have food and we have tons of clothes!! (the X spends $$$ like water, on anything)
My X suffers from depression and takes meds.
My girls, who are under mommy's control, do nothing except school. They have no friends, they aren't in anything, school, or church!! A lot of dysfunction in the house.....I'm not worried about passing any mental test, but they should be...
I feed my kids healthy food, all the food @ home is greasy, or comes from a package.
Me and the boys feel like she's only got them b/c she needs the childsupport to make rent. There isn't a mommy relationship w/ any of the kids, just control.
So do I have a chance? I'm seeking full custody, I don't want any childsupport from her, I just want what's best for my boys.
Mouse


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Every state is different and you don't note that in your location.

However I know in my state they do take the child's request into consideration and give a lot of weight to it as they get older.

As a parent I can say based on your observations that of course your household is better equipped to parent.

As a "Devil's Advocate" let me say the courts will be much more objective:

a) church attendance does not factor at all (separation of church and state)
b) as long as they are fed, the courts aren't going to judge what they are fed
c) whether they do chores while Mom goofs off will be irrelevant

What IS important to the courts in my experience 

IN your favor:
a) you were and continue to be actively involved in, and encourage the kids to participate in extracurricular activities
b) the huge change in the children's home circumstance with mother remarrying so quickly
c) documented mental illness (but depression is VERY common and not likely to matter much).

AGAINST your favor:
a) you have spoken with the boys about the divorce and that you think she only wants support. Kids should not be in the middle and no speculation about mother's motives should be discussed with the kids. Ever.

So take the high road as it relates to your ex, document everything you can but TRY to be very objective. And take a reverse look at anything she might say about YOUR situation (unemployed, living with mother, etc.)

Courts like both parents involved and aren't going to make a moral call about which house is better based on diet, activities, etc. As long as they have food, shelter and clothing, are supervised properly, not neglected and don't miss school, that is adequate. 

But yes, I think you have a good chance.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Your kids are plenty old enough to decide where they wish to stay. (well the boys are, I didnt see your daughter's age..) I cannot imagine the court not honoring their request unless there are extenuating circumstances...abuse, neglect, endangerment, etc...


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## LoveMouse (Apr 22, 2012)

My daughters are 18 and 17. The 18yrold quit talking to me before my x ever cheated. The 17yr old quit talking to me in Nov. I'm sure their's PAS going on but @ their age, what u gonna do?
Mouse


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## Freak On a Leash (Feb 19, 2010)

So why don't your daughters talk to you? :scratchhead: The 18 year old isn't a factor. She's legally an adult. The 17 year old is almost there. My 18 year old doesn't talk to her father either but he did his very best to make this happen by basically treating her like crap. I sincerely hope that this isn't the case with you. 

As for your sons, any mother who uses her children as tools to get back at her ex husband is slime. I think even less of woman who bring another man into her house with younger children to raise so in my book, your ex wife has two huge strikes against her. Her parenting style sounds like it leaves a lot to be desired too. If she's not going to raise them properly she should let them live with you, if that's what they want. 

With my forthcoming divorce all I about is what's good for our son. Unfortunately when it came to my son living with and providing for our son his father screwed up royally. My STBXH is a very lucky man that I'm not a vengeful b!tch and I care very much about what my son needs and wants because I could've made his life a living hell when it came to his treatment of our children. 

But I didn't want to do that to my son. He loves and needs his father and that's foremost in my mind so I've made every effort to be as cordial and polite with my STBXH as possible. IMO we BOTH need to be onboard with raising our son to make him as happy and well adjusted as possible so it's my best interest to maintain as good a relationship post divorce with my ex as possible. 

But a lot of people don't feel that way. To many people, divorce is about enacting revenge on the other party and if that means using their kids to do so they don't hesitate to do so. I think that's downright disgusting. 

Can't hurt to ask for full custody. Keep as many documents, receipts, etc as you can. Write everything down and try to keept he kids as uninvolved as you can. You need to keep a clear head on this. Unfortunately it seems that unless the mother is a total turd (and your ex sounds like she is) the courts tend to favor the mother. Still true in this day and age.


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## LoveMouse (Apr 22, 2012)

My oldest girl started growling @ me like a dog some years before the divorce, but so did the XW. It was kinda funny the first couple times but after the first mo I knew s/t was up. Even @ family parties I'd get growled @ for just asking a question. The lesson was "don't talk to me" I talked to the girl's therapist and there was nothing she could do so she told me to let her go. When the 17yr old stopped talking to me she said it was part of being a teenager, again, let it go, she'll come around in time. I believe this is PAS (Parential Allien Sydrome)
The kids who stayed home on dad's weekend were treated to "special" dinners, the boys were told all about what they missed. The boys would tell me after dinner my meal was way better than going out to eat, even tho she'd take them to very nice places.
Last year, when I had my hip replaced, she introduced them to her new BF, it was the same weekend I was in the hospital.
The kids get in trouble for texting/calling me. She tries so hard to have her new H fill my shoes, I feel bad for him, they're big shoes.
Mouse


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## Freak On a Leash (Feb 19, 2010)

I hope eventually things get better for your divided family. Shame that your ex wife isn't helping things any.  

My STBXH is doing his best to give our daughter her "space". He keeps hoping that time will heal all wounds. He did this to himself. He has no one to blame but himself. 

I warned him over and over and over again that he was alienating himself from our daughter. He did EVERYTHING he could to push her away. The way he treated her was just hurtful and cruel. 

He bought her a brand new car for her 17th birthday. It was a wonderful thing to do! But he did everything he could to destroy whatever good will that buying that car generated. She asked him specifically if there were "any strings attached?" when he gave it to her. Smart kid. 

He said "No" but on at least half a dozen different time he threatened to take the car back! For WHAT reason? Because she "didn't love him enough". Because she didn't "respect him enough." Because she was an "ungrateful brat."

No, it was because she was disgusted by her lying, embarrassing drunk of a father who ruined every weekend, every holiday and every time we spent together as a family. She'd had enough of him long before any one of us and he knew it. When she was a child he was her hero and he knew that he screwed up and when she didn't kiss his butt enough it pissed him off...so he bought that car to control her and try and win her back and it failed miserably. 

And he used that car in so many bad ways. On her 18th birthday and on her high school graduation he didn't buy her a gift. Why? "Well, I bought her a brand new car!" Of course he did this all the time. My birthday is the week after Mother's Day and he told me he didn't buy me a birthday present because "I took you out for Mother's Day." :slap:

Oh, and our anniversary was the week AFTER my birthday and I was told that "It's dumb to celebrate it." 

Every time my husband pulled this crap with her car my daughter was ready to hand the keys back to him but it was ME who begged him to let her keep the car in a desparate attempt to fix things. He kept telling me that he was going to "teach her respect" by taking the car and I kept saying "All you are doing is pushing her away..You are making things harder and harder to fix"

Well, I was right. All his crap didn't work. Quite the opposite. In the end he took the car from her. When he sobered up he asked me what he could do to make things right with her. I said "Give her back the car and BEG her forgiveness and treat her with love and respect". 

He said he couldn't affford for her to keep the car. So what did he do NEXT? he tried to SELL it back to her..FIRST at a profit! THEN he said he'd sell it back to her at the cost of the loan. 

You know what she did? She told him to take the car and shove it. She said she didn't want ANYTHING more to do with her father. I took her out car shopping and she willingly spent MORE of her own money to buy her OWN car. She said she didn't want to have anything more to do with her father and it would piss her off far more to pay her father for what was supposed to be her own present then save money buying her old car back from him instead of buying a new car for more. 

He seemed perplexed by this and I said to him "Congratulations, you will now never walk your daughter down the aisle on her wedding day, you will never know your daughter's children"...You have done everything possible to kill off any chance you had on mending your relationship with your daughter. And for what? $8000. Amazing..

It wasn't the only thing. He once told her she was such a terrible daughter that he was leaving all his money to her brother, not her. 

When she graduated top of her class she got a scholarship award and he couldn't even be bothered to come and watch her receive her award.

I took her alone to look at her colleges. I took her to orientation, to help her schedule her classes, to pick out her clothes, her dorm furnishings..everything. He coudn't even be bothered to pay for anything. He paid to have her laptop fixed and bought her backpack and computer case. When she needed money to put down a deposit upon getting accepted to college he made her pay it up and took two months to pay her back for it. 

But he always had money to fill up his boat with gas..and go fishing with it. He gave our son $150 to stay a week longer on vacation up at the lake but couldn't give our daughter money to buy stuff for school? 

She pays for ALL her clothes, all her school supplies, her tuition. She's worked since she was 16 years old. She's a straight A student who graduated top of her class. She's a youth leader in her church. She won numerous scholarships for college. She got a 4.0 her first semester in college. So what was her greatest sin in HIS eyes? She didn't kowtow to him. She didn't kiss his butt. She did tell him that he was a lousy drunk who was ruining everyone's life. He didn't like hearing that. He told her to "fu*ck off" when she tried to tell him he should go check into a hospital and sober up. Nice. She was 16 years old. 

And then he couldn't face the fact that the daughter who used to worship him as a child was disappointed in and not impressed with what he'd become. So instead he turned it around and decided SHE was the problem and blamed her! He did the same exact thing with me too, only to a lesser extent because I put up with him more. One thing my daughter doesn't do is put up with foolish behavior. And she's as stubborn and opinionated as her father is. In many ways, they are a lot alike. It's rather ironic that my son, who gets along with him very well is more like ME..and my son and I often butt heads! 

I hope he rots in hell for the way he's treated her. He isn't worthy of wiping the mud off her shoes!  So he can give her all the space she wants but I think he's reaping what he's sown and it's going to be a long time, if ever, before she has much to do with him again. She told me once "the father I once knew and loved is dead to me."


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## LoveMouse (Apr 22, 2012)

Freak on a leash~ You have a little anger stored up, let it out, let it go. 
My 17yr old wants to be a Pheliumbist. I have gotten her books on what to take, where to take them and have even talked to her Guidance counslor. I helped her with her homework and then BAM!!! She wants nothinhg to do with me, my GF (who she just loves), Grandma, her cousins, and now, even her aunts are blocked!! My XW has put s/t in her head, she believes she's protecting mom or s/t crazy!!
Mouse


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

LoveMouse said:


> My oldest girl started growling @ me like a dog some years before the divorce, but so did the XW. It was kinda funny the first couple times but after the first mo I knew s/t was up. Even @ family parties I'd get growled @ for just asking a question. The lesson was "don't talk to me" I talked to the girl's therapist and there was nothing she could do so she told me to let her go. When the 17yr old stopped talking to me she said it was part of being a teenager, again, let it go, she'll come around in time. I believe this is PAS (Parential Allien Sydrome)
> The kids who stayed home on dad's weekend were treated to "special" dinners, the boys were told all about what they missed. The boys would tell me after dinner my meal was way better than going out to eat, even tho she'd take them to very nice places.
> Last year, when I had my hip replaced, she introduced them to her new BF, it was the same weekend I was in the hospital.
> The kids get in trouble for texting/calling me. She tries so hard to have her new H fill my shoes, I feel bad for him, they're big shoes.
> Mouse


Yes, it's PAS. Short version: My ex kept our then 10y/o daughter past his week of summer vacation for a month saying she was afraid of me and didn't want to come back and filed for custody claiming all sorts of BS. It was like someone turned a switch in her over that time - when she came back she refused hugs, wouldn't say ILU anymore, was very hateful and condescending to me. He had fully enmeshed their personalities. 

I did some research and ordered the book *Divorce Poison by Dr. Richard Warshack*. I implemented a lot of his ideas for regaining her respect and love. First year half-hearted 1-arm hugs back, Second year hugs, Third year "you, too" to my ILU and by the end of the third year, nearly to the date, I got my first "I LOVE YOU". It's been four years and she's completely back to her old self.

It's very unusual for a man to alienate children from their mother, and it's even MORE unusual to alienate a child from their custodial parent. He would pick her up from daycare and take her to the park and for ice cream nearly daily, then return her and I'd pick her up not even knowing until one time he didn't get back in time. He talked badly about me to her, calling me names and telling her lies about me, such as telling her I cheated (I did not). He made her the center of his universe, doted on her, gave her money and only did fun stuff. He called before bed every night and talked for half hour or more. I was the one to punish her, make her do homework, clean her room, etc. and he never had to do any of that. But I didn't see what was happening until he took her away. He had been grooming her to turn on me and only needed to finish the job.

My point in this story is that I've been through it and I repaired the relationship. Your counselor was WRONG. You should NOT let her go. Your ex will merely use that by saying "see, he never really loved you". You need to continue to make an effort, probably for YEARS. Read the book. It advises to send cards for birthdays and holidays, call often, send birthday/Christmas presents... you are NOT bribing her but you are letting her know that you DO love her and you are not giving up on her. Over time she will see that and she will open the door just a crack. The rejection will hurt like hell but the rewards will be worth it in the end. Otherwise you will never even know your grandchildren. 

Text her every day. Tell her you love her and are thinking of her. Use examples from good times with her and use terms of endearment from childhood: "Hi Monkey! I saw an ad on TV for Disney that made me think of you - it reminded me of when we took you when you were four and how you were so excited to see Cinderella! Love you! Dad"

You have to remind her of when she loved you. Keep doing it over and over. My daughter had literally been brainwashed and forgot some of the things we did until I showed her photos.

Keep at it. Go ahead and try for custody for her - yes she may choose otherwise but she'll know you cared enough to try/ask.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Also if you can document the mother disallowing contact - maybe send her a text or email asking her why she told son/daughter that they couldn't reply, etc. and see if you can get her to admit it in writing.

Another tip from the book - you can be honest about their mother without bashing her. You can say that she is already depressed and is having a hard time sharing the kids but that's not right, is it? (kids should nod) Stick to the fact and keep emotion out of it, but asserting your rights be saying it's not fair to be blocked because the kids are half yours, etc. is perfectly OK. I took the high road way too long and only said pleasant or neutral things about ex not knowing he was bashing me the whole time.


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## Freak On a Leash (Feb 19, 2010)

LoveMouse said:


> Freak on a leash~ You have a little anger stored up, let it out, let it go.


:lol: That's pretty inciteful.  Yeah, it's there. It comes and goes. Sometimes I can block it out but if I start thinking, especially when it comes to my kids..BAM! It's there again. I kinda use this forum as my journal to let it out and it's very therapeutic. 

There's a lot of anger with my STBX because well, he treated us all like crap and I still see him as getting away with it. I think a lot of people on this forum feel the same way when they feel they've been wronged and their ex stil goes about their lives seemingly unaffected. 

That said, I've put a lot of my anger aside in order to deal rationally with my STBX and I am actually a pretty happy person in general. I'm enjoying myself now more than I have in years. I just wish I had more money and I don't and that's because..of my STBXH.  So there's the anger. 

But I've come a long way since this all started. At least I don't seem to care about being with him anyway. There was a time not too long ago when that was my main obsession. Now I just seem to want to get on my with my life. 



> My 17yr old wants to be a Pheliumbist. I have gotten her books on what to take, where to take them and have even talked to her Guidance counslor. I helped her with her homework and then BAM!!! She wants nothinhg to do with me, my GF (who she just loves), Grandma, her cousins, and now, even her aunts are blocked!! My XW has put s/t in her head, she believes she's protecting mom or s/t crazy!!
> Mouse


I think your daughter is angry. Who knows what your ex is telling her? You seem to be doing a good job being her father. I guess you have to be patient and as long as you haven't pulled the same crap to her as my STBX did with my daughter it should work itself out once she works through her own issues. 

With a 17 year old girl it's ALL about THEM..as in "me, me me". It does get better. Even my daughter, who seems as least selfish as a teenager can be has her "moments" and I have to straighten her out. 

Boys are SO differnet. It's fascinating (and a bit frustrating) dealing with my son. It takes a LOT more digging to find out what his issues are. In some ways he's more laid back, in others he's more of a pain. It's been interesting establishing a relationship with him now that he's living with me again.

I rather like connecting with him and it's rewarding that I'm there for him. Before I was the "bad guy" and his father the "hero". And yes, while I didn't do the things my husband did to my daughter, I wasn't the best mother to him in many ways and I consider this my chance to redeem myself with him. 

What the HECK is a Pheliumbist?  :scratchhead:


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## Freak On a Leash (Feb 19, 2010)

EnjoliWoman said:


> Your counselor was WRONG. You should NOT let her go. Your ex will merely use that by saying "see, he never really loved you". You need to continue to make an effort, probably for YEARS. Read the book. It advises to send cards for birthdays and holidays, call often, send birthday/Christmas presents... you are NOT bribing her but you are letting her know that you DO love her and you are not giving up on her. Over time she will see that and she will open the door just a crack. The rejection will hurt like hell but the rewards will be worth it in the end. Otherwise you will never even know your grandchildren.
> 
> Text her every day. Tell her you love her and are thinking of her. Use examples from good times with her and use terms of endearment from childhood: "Hi Monkey! I saw an ad on TV for Disney that made me think of you - it reminded me of when we took you when you were four and how you were so excited to see Cinderella! Love you! Dad"
> 
> ...


:iagree: That's a GREAT idea. If my husband remains sober and cares enough I'll get him that book. I actually would WANT him to be a positive force in her life but not as an alcoholic. EVERY TIME he came close to breaching the gap with my daughter (such as last summer) he would start drinking and SCREW UP. And then it would get worse and worse.

I would keep telling him "all you gotta do is this and this" but he would REFUSE, saying what a brat and how ungrateful our daughter was..which would piss ME off. He's completely irrational when drinking. 

I tried to get him to "reverse course" on what he was doing to her many times. I focus on the car because the car was more than just a car..it was a "symbol" both to my husband and my daughter and he just totally blew it. There were other things too. I could write a book on all the crap he pulled with her. It's a shame because it affects my son, who really wants us to be a family at times like on birthdays and holidays. 

I actually tried many times but it didn't work out so now we are a divided family. We actually don't HAVE to be divided because even though we are getting divorced I often have my husband over to hang out with me and my son because it makes my son so happy and usually I don't mind my STBX's company..in small doses. 

But with my daughter home from college that's impossible. I told my STBXH NOT to be here when she's here because it makes her really upset. 

Sounds like Lovemouse has the same situation and has to deal with a divided family.  Lovemouse, I'd DEFINITELY think about doing what Enjoli is saying. What you are doing isn't working and yes, I can see how being PROACTIVE in your daughter's life would be very positive. Might as well give it a shot!


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## Freak On a Leash (Feb 19, 2010)

EnjoliWoman said:


> I took the high road way too long and only said pleasant or neutral things about ex not knowing he was bashing me the whole time.


It's a tough balancing act, isn't it? I have to be careful with my son because he really LOVES his father, but unlike before he now has a realistic view of him now that he's lived with him and been the recipient of some bad behavior from his father, which wasn't the case before. 

Before my son was the "golden child" and was showered with gifts, money, praise, while my daughter and I were the "bad people". My STBX did alot of the same stuff your husband pulled. There's a lot of the narcissist in my husband.  I wouldn't say he has a "syndrome" that can be diagnosed but he thinks VERY highly of himself and is a real control freak and thinks the world revolves around him so he'd definitely a junior member of that club!

When my son became "inconvenient" my husband started villainizing and struck out at him, blaming him for his problems, not giving him back his computer. etc. He's repaired a lot of that damage but I had to be very careful not to bash his father. My son had to tell me to "shut up about dad" a few times when I was ranting about it so now I make a concerted effort not to talk about the situation unless my son brings it up and now I try and keep it neutral. 

Lately, my son has expressed frustration that he feels "blown off" by his father attending AA meetings during their time together and I've told him that it's important to support his father on that. And his father not having money and not working really bothers my son because suddenly he's not getting all the fancy dinners and gifts anymore and he realizes that his father won't be buying him the new car he was promised when he turns 16 in November. Welcome to the club! I've just told him not to ask or expect anything from his father. 

It's just as well because I wasn't happy with the way things were going with my husband showing my son with gifts and money. My son needs to realize that he has to earn his OWN way in the world, not expect to get things from other people. In an offhanded way my husband did him a favor.

My daughter never got or expected anything so she's always worked and been independent, which is a good thing. I was NEVER buying her a car or putting her through college so she never had a choice BUT to do it on her own and now I'm trying to communicate that fact to my son. I think it's important that kids do and buy things for themselves so they can be functioning adults. 

Also, my husband taught both my kids to beware of alcoholics (and I assume that applies to narcissists as well) bearing gifts because they often use them to control you and/or take them away. Better to make your own way in the world. 

Enjoli, hopefully your daughter will learn that lesson without too much pain and hardship because sooner or later her father will turn on her and it will be YOU who will have to be there for her. It's tough being the "parent", isn't it? But that's what we are here for.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Freak,

I'm afraid when she finally chooses her friends over him, he's going to lose it. I read her texts and see that he subtly puts me down and puts his needs over everyone's. She will tire of the burden of his happiness. I assured her I would always love her and always be here for her even if at some point she lives with her Dad. I felt if I gave her an 'out' she could at least chose to live with him without fear of losing me. I'd rather let her go for a brief time so she can have both of us. 

Some of the things I did based on the book:

- Reminded her I was worthy of love and respect by exposing her to those people regularly. *I took her to work and my coworkers all talked about how great I was to work with. She saw my awards on the shelf as proof I'm not a screw-up like Dad said.*

- Remind her of when she loved me and had good times. *I took every file of digital photos, printed them chronologically 4 per page in color and put them into binders, one for each year. I left them on the coffee table. I would have friends and family pick them up and scan through and point stuff out "oh I remember when you guys did that! you had so much fun!"*

- Be her rock. *I did not buy her love. I did not change my routine, I did not cater to her. The rules were the same - homework, clean her room, etc. I was not "bad" before and had nothing I needed to change.*

- Assure her my love was NOT conditional like her father. *I told her daily that I loved her. I showed her affection, put notes in her lunch and suggested bonding activities. I also spoke of always being here. Always. *

- Watched movies about brainwashing and talked about them. *Hook and Mrs. Doubtfire were recommended as ways to open discussion about how other people can influence a child's perception of their parents. Very subtle; very powerful.*

It all worked. Slowly. It took a lot of time. And because I was able to prove NPD and PAS via the psychological evaluation ordered by the court, his visitation was cut in half, he was only allowed to visit her one day at lunch at school and can only call 3x a week for 15 minutes at a time. Limiting his influence on her was important.


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## Freak On a Leash (Feb 19, 2010)

Your ex husband is in for a REAL fall when your daughter gets a bit older. OF COURSE she is going to choose her friends over her parents! That is a NORMAL part of the growing up process and becoming an independent adult! You WANT your kids to get their own social circle and become their own people. Then you know you've done your job as a parent! 

My 18 year old daughter and I have probably the BEST relationship one could hope to have as mother and daughter. But even with her I get blown off for her friends, boys, etc..and when that happens I say to her "No problem! Go have fun!"

Today she was supposed to come home for spring break. When I asked her what time she'd be home she hesitated and said "I might come home Saturday instead because I met this guy at a party and he invited me out to the movies.."

I said "Well, go and have a great time! How about on Saturday we head to the mall, do some shopping and get dinner?" She asked me if I was mad! I said "Heck no!" Then I informed her I'd be away all day Sunday to attend a St. Patricks Day party. 

I'm GLAD she's having a great time on her own. Sometimes it makes me a big sad that my daughter will one day not consider MY house "home" and get her own place but that's life. Besides, I have a life of my own and she's a big part of it, but I don't make her my entire life and I certainly don't want to be HER enite life. I want to be a part of it! I don't want my kids to always be needing to be with me. It's probably why I wasn't the best mother when they were really young. All that neediness literally freaks me out!

But your ex is too sick himself to realize that is how it's supposed to be with being a parent. You are PART of your child's life. You don't bully them or guilt them into spending time with you. You should encourage them to be their own person and want them to be happy, self confident and independent. But with your ex, it's all about him..literally.

How you lived with that man is beyond me. My STBX has elements of narcissism as well and it drives me NUTS. Unfortunately your daughter will be the one to suffer and it's GREAT that you've done the things you have. They sound a LOT like the things I've done with my son.

My STBX's narcissistic tendencies don't seem to extend to our children via control and putting the other person down. He gives our kids their space and doesn't try and control them. He screwed up with my daughter but for the most part, WHEN he's sober he's great with our son. That's why I have such a vested interest in keeping him sober because I want him to be part of my son's life because in many ways he is a good influence on him. We both play vastly different roles in his life.

But I did the same stuff when my son as you do when he and I weren't getting along and he lived with his father. I let him know that he ALWAYS had a home with me and that I would ALWAYS be there for him. Even now, he has some issues of anxiety and abandonment with his father and I just tell him that his father is still sick, will always be an alcoholic and needs our support...and I make it my business to be the supportive, stable, loving parent..but I am still a PARENT. That means discipline, structure, chores and yeah, I gotta nag him to do the right thing. 

But kids are like puppies. They need and crave structure and order in their lives as well as love and security..and yeah, FUN. It makes them become good people themselves. 

You are doing AWESOME with your daughter. Stay the course because I predict your ex is going to push it too far with her and she is eventually going to lessen or break off contact significantly and he's going to lose his mind. He's going to destroy his own relationship with his daughter and you'll be the one coming in to pick up the pieces and be the stable, loving influence in her life. That alone is worth more than all the money and gifts and is beyond priceless.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Freak, I hope so. He really did a number on her. Everything he liked - food, music, activities - she liked and vice versa; completely enmeshed their personalities. Even things she liked before or didn't like before. I knew that at age 10 if I didn't do something serious, I'd loose her forever. If she went to live with him, he would exert so much influence on her I'd never even have a shot of a normal relationship. So even if she decides to go live with him at 16 or 18 I know we have a solid foundation now. 

And I agree about needing my own life/own time! I LOVE my daughter with all of my heart. But when she isn't home, I have a life! I don't pine away. Her father pulls that crap. I love having a grown-up life.


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## Freak On a Leash (Feb 19, 2010)

Your daughter is 14? She's still at an age where she's taking cues and hero worshipping her father. It's very common with girls. My daughter did that too to some extent. I think that's why her father's drinking affected both of them to the extent they did. She felt seriously let down by him and showed her distaste and scorn for him and he gave it right back. They both took it to extremes. My son and I were much more practical and middle of the road and have dealt with it differently. But then again, my son and I are more alike as is my father and daughter more alike. Interesting. 

Anyway, your daughter will, in a very short time, become more into herself, her own peer groups, interests and make a STRONG bid to establish herself as an entity that is independent from her father. My daughter has done it with me and we are STILL friends but if I'd attempted to resist her and keep her under my control, influence and thumb it would've come to a bad end. 

Same with my son. I can see now he's starting to become his own man. Either accept it and encourage it or you have a huge battle brewing. That's the way it is with teenagers. It's what MAKES them teenagers and why SO many parents hate having teenagers! Suddenly that controllable, compliant, obedient child is becoming their own person and they can't handle that...and BAM. Total warfare between parent and child!  

I love having teenagers. I find it fascinating, exhilarating and fun. But then again, I'm just a big kid myself and can relate to them. I think that's another problem: A lot of adults forget what it was like to be a teenager. It's weird..it's like they go through some kind of brainwashing when they hit 30 or something. I guess I missed that somehow. Thank goodness.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

I'm completely into her developing a sense of self and independence. I don't live vicariously through her! I'm not a big kid but I haven't forgotten.  Somewhere in between.

Yes I realize Daddy is everything in that age - one of the reasons it was easier for him to alienate her. My counselor thought it was normal - I knew it ran deeper than that so glad the psychologist could suss it out. 

All is well, though - she's a pretty tough kid with a mind of her own. I'm glad she's not a 'sheep'. Eventually she will come into her own and choose friends over Dad but I think it will take a bit longer than most.

I went to school to pay last installment on school trip and she saw me in the office and asked me to come join her at lunch.  awww....


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## LoveMouse (Apr 22, 2012)

I think I've been HYJACKED lol
Mouse


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## Freak On a Leash (Feb 19, 2010)

You need to post more in your own thread Mouse. 

Enjoli, I think you are doing GREAT by your daughter. It's the father who is the problem. And he's a bigger kid than she is..and not in a good way.


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## LoveMouse (Apr 22, 2012)

Jerry my youngest boy, loves to act in theater. When he played the tin man I sewed his costume. He now needs to be a old man from the 1900's, dressed in whatever they wore back then. The costumes are due Mon. My x refuses to help him, is just nasty to me, says her new husband will take care of it BUT NEVER DOES!!!I'll have to play hell getting him to the second~hand store but if I don't, she'll tell him "dad said he'd take care of this, I don't know what's wrong w/ him?" It's good the boy sees mom doesn't allow the time but sucks she's like this.
And I guess this is where ALL my confusion lies....
Ok, my X was a whoxe, she cheated to get rid of me, I was a horrible person who didn't deserve a family...??
I get used to the idea my wife of 20 yrs no longer is in love w/ me. Done.
My oldest daughter quits seeing me (after years of being happy and spending all this time w/ her) It happens. 
My youngest daughter, outta the blue decides she's mad @ me and EVERYTHING is dad's fault, I did EVERYTHING ALL WRONG. I am not perfect, I have made some mistakes...but to cut me and my entire family out of her life?? Over one week??
I feel like the path is too narrow, one step to the right or left and I'll lose another child. Dad has to be perfect or we just cut him out!!! Do you see the pattern here?
Mouse


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Read my story. I overcame although the price tag was $40K; he was finally ordered to pay half. The GAL was instrumental due to the advocate doing a thorough evaluation of parental fitness and making a recommendation to the court. The psych eval was important as well, but more for my peace of mind and the results keeping him from taking it to trial once he saw the report. The book, Divorce Poison was instrumental in reaching my daughter after I regained custody but I suggest using those techniques concurrently with court. 

One thing the custody advocate liked was the fact I went to family counseling with my daughter to help her adjust to the divorce. But I did this way before any motion was ever filed so it was obvious it wasn't posturing for court but an effort to improve my parenting skills and help my daughter through a difficult time.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

She did not cheat to get rid of you. She just cheated. She could 'get rid' of you without cheating - that was just her choice. Try to squelch the bitter. 

Can you not reach your son at all so he knows you made the effort? You know his size, I presume. Contact the drama teacher. Go visit him at school at lunch and take things from the thrift store to try on. You can make this happen and prove to your son you are a man of your word and mention that you hope they fit because Mom wouldnt' let you pick him up to go shopping. Don't hide the truth but DON'T BASH HER IN HIS PRESENCE.

ETA - if you are too far to drop by school, buy the stuff and SHIP IT to the school to the attention of the drama teacher and put a note in it for your son. If you need to, call the drama teacher and explain that you are really trying to get a costume to him but that Mom isn't being too cooperative (leave it at that) and let her know you are shipping a costume.


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## inarut (Feb 9, 2013)

You've been given a lot of information here. The only other thing I would stress which has already been stated is to keep reaching out to your daughters. If you just go away and stop trying they will continue to believe all the bad things their mother has told them. Send cards, keep making phone calls even if they go unanswered. Do whatever you can to make your prescence, love and interest known and felt. Don't give up.

I experience the same thing with my ex, always critisizing and putting me down to my boys. They are young though and they live with me. No amount of talking to him about how much this negatively effects them does an ounce of good. It creates a lot of anxiety and confusion, it really upsets them but they know who I am, that I am always there for them and how much I love hem. What my ex and probably your ex don't realize is the damage and poisoning they are doing will one day backfire when the kids are old enough to see things and make sense of things on their own. But that won't happen if you are not there fighting for them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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