# wife denies... i don't buy



## ozarksguy

My wife and I have been married for nearly 11 years. Two kids, both successful careers, the perfect life.

Last December I discover that she struck up a texting/email/facebook friendship with a co-worker. I found many messages, that were not of a super-sexual nature, but still disturbing. When I confronted her, she said she was sorry and it was just flirting and electronic communication, nothing physical. Although they did have at least two lunches together during December. She apologised to me and I confronted the co-worker. Both said it was over.

January, we go on a vacation. She emails him during the trip and says "I really miss you and just wanted you to know". He responds and says "it's empty around here without you". She responds again and says "I really miss you, just saying". I confront her again and she says she just misses his friendship, and nothing more and that she said that to him because they hadn't really spoken since late December. Although phone records indicate she was texting him in Dallas before a connecting flight out of the country.

I get super paranoid over this situation and it consumes me. As the weeks go on, I continue to bring it up by asking questions. She starts to get defensive with me, saying it was only a friendship and nothing more. 

In February, tensions are high between us because I have so much hurt over this issue. She tells me she needs space, and I need to figure out how to move beyond this issue. All the while, the texting continues, and they even met for a 3-hour happy hour at a mexican restaurant. She came home wasted and got mad at me when I asked her questions about it. I checked the credit card receipt to see what time she paid. She was home 30 minutes after she paid, and we live 10-15 minutes from the place. I went into the restaurant to ask the manager what he saw. He remembered where they sat, what they drank, and what time they were there. He also said he saw her give him "one quick kiss". I confronted her and she told me the manager lied and she would go back to the restaurant with me and confront him herself if i wanted. I have a feeling there was a bit of a make-out session in the car outside the restaurant, although she vehemently denies that.

We go to counseling and start doing better in late February to late March. But then I checked our phone bill again this week and the texting continues. Not to the level that it did, but it still does. Also, two weeks ago she tried to get them both on TextPlus, an iphone application that keeps text messages out of your ususal text message in-box. On that same night, she also sent him some kind of picture from her phone. I confronted her again, and again she says they are friends and she only tried to do textPlus because she didn't want me to overreact to an innocent friendship. She also claims she doesn't remember what picture she sent him but swears it was nothing dirty. But still I'm the paranoid one because "you don't believe me".

I'm at my wits end. I want to believe my wife... but I keep getting this gut feeling that there's something more. I honestly don't think there's anything physical, but certainly emotional and I worry about these "pictures". And it frustrates me that she gets mad at me for being paranoid and asking questions...

Somebody please tell me what I should do? I hear people saying "where there's smoke there's fire"... but I just don't want to think the worst....


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## thompsanator

It sounds like you need to be very strong because this doesn’t sound good. I would suggest putting your faith in Christ because that will fill your heart will something you can rely on in an unstable time. 
It also sounds like you already know that she is developing a relationship with this man since you gave text books examples of cheating, and a lot of them. 
Your wife probably thinks you’re weak and or spineless since you can confront her with so much and she still denies it. It’s becoming a game to her and she’s probably having fun with it. There’s a good chance she still loves you but is confused. Marriage was designed by God; it’s a representation of his union with the church and to help us understand intimacy and companionship, not necessarily sex, but true intimacy. Therefore, man and wife both have their place and responsibilities, equal I think, but different.
What I would suggest is an ultimatum. She needs to know you have a back bone and there could actually be consequences to her infidelity, men are the spine and strength of the relationship and perhaps that’s out of whack. I have no clue what’s what with your finances, kids or living situation but you can get creative. You must have something she wants or needs besides the role of a husband, and if she doesn’t stop then you need to let her know you have a pair and you leaving or whatever consequence you have created.
Stand up, stand your ground and be the man God designed; an intelligent, discerning and strong man. Know in your heart that you could be with any woman but you chose her, for good reason I hope. If you don’t convince yourself of this then you’ll always be a door mat. Read the book of proverbs, in it you will find great wisdom to assist you.


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## momof6girls

even if she is telling the truth (an i am betting she is not) then she will cross that line very soon...

friends don't miss each other that badly and friends don't go out to dinner one on one when one is married... (why were you ok with that)

you are married and you have the right to say NO... to any man that is coming around.

at this point you talked to her and no end so know time to take action... block the number (you do pay the bill right) and send him a text i am sure you have the number and let him know you are not ok with him being friends with your hubby (he may not know your not ok with) be straight but not threatning when you text him.

if she gets mad well then she has more invested feelings wise and really she should be going to lunch and dinner and what ever with you HER hubby and not him.

you said where there is smoke there is fire... hunny she has a camp fire going and it will get hotter before it goes out unless you poor water on it really fast.


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## ozarksguy

Thanks to you both for your thoughts...

As far as blocking the number... my wife locked me out of viewing our cell phone account. She says I can twist innocent things into fabricated imaginary things. So I can't block the number, can't even see what's going on anymore.

We've had further discussions over this in the last few days. She denies anything physical and says she only wants friends and to be social. In fact she's mad at me for "overreacting" and trying to "control" her. She says she loves me and that she would never cheat on me. I fear though that she hasn't given me the truth, eventhough I've confronted her with some smoking guns, because she wants to spare my feelings.

The crazy thing is she's making me feel like the jerk for being concerned and insecure about that relationship. If you could see some of the stuff this other man said to her in emails... She says she never said dirty things to him. But my thing is... how did he go from zero to 60 unless he was encouraged.

Also, as far as me being okay with her going to happy hour one on one, I wasn't. I only found out after the fact. And she still denies kissing him at that restaurant eventhough the manager told me he saw her give him one quick kiss. Why would that manager make that up?


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## losinglove

Don't feel like a jerk, she is playing you

From what I see here it looks like she is having and EA, if not a physical one. She is trying to deflect everything on you - not a good sign. If the phone is in your name go to the cell phone store and have them block it for you/ change the password on the account/cancel the phone...


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## amanda1959

unacceptable...she needs to stop all communication now! She can choose you and the life you built together or her "escape from reality"


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## ozarksguy

As far as even going to the phone store, I can't do that. She bought our iPhones and set up the whole thing in her name. My name isn't even on the account. Ironic that she changed all this around thanksgiving, the time this "friendship" started with the other man.

I actually did confront the other man early on when I discovered what had been happening. He told me that it was all just talk, and that it was over. But clearly it has continued. And I just can't figure out how he could "turn off" those emotions he developed for my wife. I'm sure he feels like he has something on me. And I worry that he only told me what my wife told him to say.

I should mention that she also sent him some pictures from her phone. she claims they were all innocent and nothing dirty. Of course I don't know what they were and only have her version.


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## amanda1959

if she doesn't stop it should be over..way not acceptable


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## jitterbug

Ozarksguy..

Your W is gaslighting you at this point, from what I've read in your posts.

She's blameshifting, and deflecting, trying to convince you that you're overreacting, and/or unstable.

She's absolutely involved in an EA , if she's sending this guy pics, and saying things like "Miss you" and "seems empty here without you..."

Locking you out of viewing the cell phone account is a screaming red banner. Secrecy is one of the defining aspects of
an EA.

If your W insisits that this is nothing more than an innocent friendship...and that you're overreacting, look her in the eye and say, "If that's really the case, then any friend of yours should be a friend of mine,too. Let's have him over for dinner..."

Her reaction to that request should be very telling. It might even help to clear some of the fog she's lost in.


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## ozarksguy

jitterbug said:


> Ozarksguy..
> 
> Your W is gaslighting you at this point, from what I've read in your posts.
> 
> She's blameshifting, and deflecting, trying to convince you that you're overreacting, and/or unstable.
> 
> She's absolutely involved in an EA , if she's sending this guy pics, and saying things like "Miss you" and "seems empty here without you..."
> 
> Locking you out of viewing the cell phone account is a screaming red banner. Secrecy is one of the defining aspects of
> an EA.
> 
> If your W insisits that this is nothing more than an innocent friendship...and that you're overreacting, look her in the eye and say, "If that's really the case, then any friend of yours should be a friend of mine,too. Let's have him over for dinner..."
> 
> Her reaction to that request should be very telling. It might even help to clear some of the fog she's lost in.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ozarksguy

Jitterbug. 

Thanks for your insight. We actually did have the guy and his wife over one night because my wife has said she wants us all to be friends. For full disclosure I did confront the guy after I found out in December. When he first walked into my house he was hyper-ventilating as though ge was nervous. It was the first time I had seen him in person since confronting him. The night was a but akward but I went out of my way to be nice. 

My wife says licking me out of the phone account is so that I don't overreact to an innocent friendship. If it's so innocent why was it initially hidden from me? And why in susequent months when I've asked my wife if she talked to the guy has she said no, eventhough texts continued. 

Thus guy and his wife are having problems. I've talked to her in email to try and see if she suspects or knows anything. She acts like she doesn't bit suggested we meet for lunch so we could talk in person. We are meeting tomorrow. My question is... Do I tell her what I know if she's truly in the dark? Let's just say my wife is being honest and it's only a friendship. Will she get even more mad at me if I bring this up to the other wife and then that conversation gets back to my wife. My wife, who I love mire mthan anything, has truly made me feel like I'm the one with the problem. Perhaps I am. But I've done SO much reading on this subject and I see the warning signs and I know people say to trust your gut. I feel like I'm on the edge of a cliff about to fall off. The funny thing is this guy isn't handsome or suave. I think he just showers get with attention and knows the right things to say.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Find out this guy's contact numbers for his wife and siblings/parents. Sit down and call those people and tell them he is carrying on an affair with a married woman and you'd like their help talking to him to get him out of your marriage so you and your wife could repair it. At the same time, call your wife's parents, siblings, and best friends. Tell them what she is doing and ask them to help her get free of the addiction to the other man so you can address your marriage honestly.

Then sit back and wait. She will be furious with you - they ALL are when you threaten to take away their drug. Remain calm and say ONLY "I am fighting to save my marriage" and nothing more. If she tries to say YOU harmed her relationship with her family and friends by telling them, all you say is "I only told them the truth. Is there something wrong with them knowing about it?"

If they continue, then you call her boss and tell him his coworkers are carrying on an affair and are using workplace materials and time to do so. You may want to hint that his company may be liable for lawsuits, you'll be checking with your lawyer.

Above all, you have to get them to never see each other again. If it requires her quitting, even you moving, your marriage is worth it. Their affair will never end emotionally if they continue to see each other at work.


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## jitterbug

ozarksguy said:


> Jitterbug.
> 
> Thanks for your insight. We actually did have the guy and his wife over one night because my wife has said she wants us all to be friends. For full disclosure I did confront the guy after I found out in December. When he first walked into my house he was hyper-ventilating as though ge was nervous. It was the first time I had seen him in person since confronting him. The night was a but akward but I went out of my way to be nice.
> 
> My wife says licking me out of the phone account is so that I don't overreact to an innocent friendship. If it's so innocent why was it initially hidden from me? And why in susequent months when I've asked my wife if she talked to the guy has she said no, eventhough texts continued.
> 
> Thus guy and his wife are having problems. I've talked to her in email to try and see if she suspects or knows anything. She acts like she doesn't bit suggested we meet for lunch so we could talk in person. We are meeting tomorrow. My question is... Do I tell her what I know if she's truly in the dark? Let's just say my wife is being honest and it's only a friendship. Will she get even more mad at me if I bring this up to the other wife and then that conversation gets back to my wife. My wife, who I love mire mthan anything, has truly made me feel like I'm the one with the problem. Perhaps I am. But I've done SO much reading on this subject and I see the warning signs and I know people say to trust your gut. I feel like I'm on the edge of a cliff about to fall off. The funny thing is this guy isn't handsome or suave. I think he just showers get with attention and knows the right things to say.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




I think having a sit-down with the other man's wife is a great idea.In your shoes I would allow her to do the bulk of the talking, at least at first---for the express reason of getting her point of view, without being influenced by your input.

I would then let her know that flirtatious texts and emails have been exchanged between your respective partners, as well as pictures.I would also mention the Textplus your wife got for both of them, for hiding text messages. (something smells bad there......)

It's possible that his wife is completely oblivious, or she may be suspicious, but doesn't have enough evidence to confirm her suspicions.Pooling your information could be mutually beneficial.

I suspect, though, that the problems the OM his having with his W could very well be related to the amount of time he's been spending communicating with your W.

Please let us know how it goes.........


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## Jenna

Another possiblity...

I've been in a similar situation where my husband was concerned about a friendship of mine. Some of your examples sound eerily familiar. In my case, it was truly just a friendship - and it continues to this day, with the spouses being a part of it. We worked it out, and I'll tell you how we did.

When my husband finally spoke to me without accusation and anger - calmly and rationally - and explained his concerns (he told me my behavior - the energy and liveliness - with this other man reminded him of how I used to be with him). His point was valid and I finally understood his fear. At that point, I gave him my passwords - email, Facebook, etc and kept my phone open for him to look at whenever he wanted. Nothing was hidden anymore. I told him about our phone calls. Over time, he saw there was nothing to worry about and he stopped checking. There is peace now and a couples' friendship is getting stronger.

It is possible you two have been butting heads over this situation for so long, her position is so deeply entrenched and she is fighting for her autonomy, and will never give in. It may seem to be a control issue and she refuses to be controlled.

The best way to disarm her is to explain your fears. I would encourage you to look deep into yourself and identify - precisely - what is going on in there. Fear, of course, is the largest part. But fear of what, exactly? Figure it out and tell her -- without anger or accusation. If she can (or will) hear you, there is hope for a change. If she sees and understands your pain - her reaction to that will tell all.

Wishing you the best!


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## ozarksguy

jitterbug... i will let you know what happens. although our lunch tomorrow had to be rescheduled.

jenna... you raise some great points. i think you're exactly right that my wife is fighting for her autonomy and she's pretty much dug her heels in at this point. you used the word control, she uses that all the time with me. i can honestly say i don't want to control my wife... and until this happened i never had any desire to check out her stories and wonder about whether she's telling me the truth. but because it started in secrecy, and because i've found so many "smoking guns", my biggest fear i think is the fear of not knowing what really happened, and what continues to happen between these two. she could talk to any number of male co-workers and i wouldn't give two-cents about it. but the one particular man, who crossed a line and became my wife's closest confidant, is the reason i've lost trust. 

i also fear that because we've gone so many rounds on this subject, that her heels are dug in so deep that she wouldn't listen to me and truly understand my feelings. i felt like she did for awhile, and we were doing better. but then when i just happened to see the phone bill last week, and saw the hundreds of texts and a picture sent to him, i blew up again. that sent her over the top and here we are again... i feel like a fool and she feels like her husband doesn't really believe her. i want to believe her, but i'm not sure what's real and what's not anymore...


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## turnera

This is the number one tool used by cheaters: "You're trying to control me! What kind of monster did I marry?" It is designed to guilt you into backing down so that they can freely carry on their affair.

Look. She is cheating. What would her mother say? She wouldn't like it. That means you shouldn't, either. YOUR job at this point is to bring her back to the point where she is focused on your marriage, not on her freedom. BECAUSE she has betrayed your trust, she doesn't deserve it now. Not for awhile, til you are confident she's given up this guy.

That's the only point here. There is NOT room for 3 people. If you allow her to continue, she will become more and more brazen; pretty soon they'll be sleeping over at your house and laughing at you cos you're weak and needy and she has no respect for you.

At this point, it isn't about whether she sees you as controlling. It's about whether she _deserves_ to be trusted. And she doesn't.


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## ozarksguy

Tunera...

You're absolutely right. And that's the way it's playing out right now. She's saying I'm trying to control her... and keep "tabs" on her... and that I don't "own" her. Again I never felt that way until I discovered what I discovered. She's making me feel like I'm crazy. In fact her words to me this week were "you're scaring me". Well I contend that she has scared me by carrying on with another man.

Even if they have cooled things off as she claims, there are things I just can't get out of my mind. One email said "have I told you lately how into you I am, tell me when to stop". My wife's reply... "you don't have to stop". Another email saying "I want to be inside of you". She says that was just something he said when he was drunk. I say, he didn't just pull that out of the air unless he was encouraged. We actually had dinner in December with the OM and his wife, before I found out, and there was an email from him to her saying "if i'm quiet or distant to you it's by design". One email I saw from my wife to the OM said she hoped that he and his wife had fun over Christmas and that perhaps he would forget about my wife. Then she said... well I want you to have fun but not too much fun .

I realize all this is a smoking gun. And it's these kinds of exchanges, and the pictures, and the hundreds of texts that leaves me hurt and fearful.

My wife is going out of town for a conference tomorrow. She doesn't know it, but i decided today to fly to the city and surprise her... namely because I want to see if anybody else (the OM) is there. I'm skeptical because there was another email in December saying "I wish we could fly away together". We shall see.

Thanks to everyone for all the great advice. This site has been somewhat comforting... although I think it only confirms what I've suspected for months.


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## turnera

Make sure you bring a camera.


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## ozarksguy

Good one turnera... 

Let's just play devil's advocate for a minute. Is there anyone who thinks my wife really could be telling me the truth? That it was just a friendship and is just a friendship? I think there are too many smoking guns but I keep hearing her say "it was nothing and is nothing and i would never cheat on you". Of course that's usually followed by the whole "you're trying to control me" comment.


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## jitterbug

Based on the content of the exchanges between them you just described in your recent post,she's not telling you the truth.There was deliberate sexual and romantic innuendo there.

While there may be cases where opposite sex friendships _are_ truly innocent, but the spouse is uncomfortable solely based on their own baggage......Yours is _not _one of those cases.

Your fears and discomfort are well-founded.Their exchanges are completely inappropriate for two people who are married to others.

"I wish we could fly away together...."

"I want to be inside you......"

WTH?!?!?!

That was just something he said when he was drunk???Oh, that makes it all o.k., then.........Riiiiight.

OP, have you made any copies of these exchanges?

If you are going to meet OM's W for lunch, and discuss your concerns with her, hard evidence would be helpful.There's a chance that your W and OM have cast aspersions on your credibilty.....(part of the Gaslighting Handbook) so any proof you have will counter that.


It sound to me like your W is following the same script used by all waywards. Invalidating your perceptions. Accusing you of being controlling.Telling you that you're overreacting.

Her insistence on maintaining contact with the OM, and being secretive about it, is evidence that your feeling are not high on her priority list........(right now). Sorry to be so blunt, but that's what the writing on the wall is saying.


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## Jenna

Ozarksguy,

Sounds like you've already been around the bend with this. I read something yesterday I think could help you. I'm completely new to this forum - yours is the first post I read. I wish I knew how to reference the posts directly, but haven't yet to figured out how.

Anyway, in the Coping With Infidelity area, there is a post called "My wife is emotionally cheating! desperate help needed!!! please!'. I was impressed with the advice of the first 2 members to respond to his post. Great information there.

Basically, they give instructions how to deal with this threat proactively rather than reactively. If you know what to do, you can stand strong rather than swing from anger, hurt, vulnerability, etc. Take a look.

Good luck!


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## ozarksguy

Jenna said:


> Ozarksguy,
> 
> Sounds like you've already been around the bend with this. I read something yesterday I think could help you. I'm completely new to this forum - yours is the first post I read. I wish I knew how to reference the posts directly, but haven't yet to figured out how.
> 
> Anyway, in the Coping With Infidelity area, there is a post called "My wife is emotionally cheating! desperate help needed!!! please!'. I was impressed with the advice of the first 2 members to respond to his post. Great information there.
> 
> Basically, they give instructions how to deal with this threat proactively rather than reactively. If you know what to do, you can stand strong rather than swing from anger, hurt, vulnerability, etc. Take a look.
> 
> Good luck!


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ozarksguy

Jenna. Thanks for the advice. I had already read that post but read it again. 

I think I really know the truth but am caught between denial and acceptance. I told my wife that she has the power to tell me the truth and confirm that I'm not crazy. We will see what I find when I surprise her at her conference. I did confim the OM is not in the office today and his receptionist wasn't sure if he'd be back tomorrow. Something tells me I know where he is. I'm embarrased by the sneaky tactics i've gone to to get information. But I have to find the truth.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## stumped

If the relationship makes you uncomfortable then you need to tell her that it makes you feel uncomfortable and that you dont want her to continue the relationship. Tell her to put herself in your shoes........

If she doesn't respect your wishes to end the communication then it is time for you to end the relationship becuase she doesn't care what you think. 

I went through this with the ex-husband.....you two are married YOU come first and if she isn't willing to put your first there is a woman out there that will.


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## amanda1959

There was a female co-worker (my husbands friend) that I was very uncomfortable with a couple of years ago. She came up in our marriage therapy sessions. The net result was that I asked my husband to curb his contact with her. She was everywhere he was, and also golfing together and as time went on they seemed too close and it made me very uncomfortable. The therapist used an analogy of an umbrella for two. We decide as a couple who gets to share our umbrella. If one does not agree with the others choice it should be respected.


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## WantsHappiness

ozarksguy said:


> Is there anyone who thinks my wife really could be telling me the truth? That it was just a friendship and is just a friendship?


Sorry but no. I’ve been following your thread and thought there was a slight possibility but after all of the secrecy and especially the detail of exchanges between them this definitely sounds like an EA if it hasn’t already turned PA. 

Good luck today! Be strong!


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## Jenna

OMG ozarksguy - what you wrote is absolutely horrible. I can't even imagine the shock you experienced when you read those things. There is no way she can argue the relationship is platonic. I hope for a resolution for you soon. Good luck on your trip.


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## turnera

I just want to add that you have to look at this trip as something like what a PI would do - find out where she is, but don't let people know who you are. If someone were to tell her 'oh your husband is here looking for you' you can bet she'll have him hidden behind the drapes in a second.


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## amanda1959

"Con" ference... sure


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## tjohnson

My heart goes out to you. 

I want to be inside you would not come from someone who has not visited there before, guaranteed! 

Perhaps too late but, you may want to consider a PI in that city rather than going yourself as they are an uknown and as others have mentioned her cowerkers may recognize you and blow your cover. 

I suspected OM in a relationship before I married. My instincts turned out to be correct. Like a wimp I stuck around thinking if i knew more it would be helpful. As it turned out she came back years later but, by then (luckily) i was smarter and did not take her back. Looking back I ignored my friends advice to walk away.

Since you cannot do that you need to make her decide. Him or you. No married person under your circumstances should be expected to allow a freindship that close with OP of the opposite sex. If she refuses then she has chosen him. Better to know now and get on with your life. She has caused this and not you. 

I do not think this will end well. Write down the outcomes and think about them. As I see them they are:

1-Your suspicions are confirmed-they have been intimate and you know it without refute (this may never really happen) 

2-you are never able to confirm and continue to "snoop" and she will turn this into "your problem.." how long with that end. You have done a great job with your research but, may never catch her "red handed". 

3-Regardless of your spying run you have every right to ask her to cut off her relationship. Regardless of the accuracy of her suspicions you have every right to ask this of her. Failure for her to honor your request is a mockey of your vows and you SHOULD NOT STAND FOR IT. 

If you fail to do this everyone (including yourself, him and your wife) will be losing respect for you allong the way. I think you have a better chance of salvaging your marriage by taking charge. Pray, get counseling...whatever...but, reach down into the fabrick that makes you a great, worthy man and demand and end to this. When the dust finally clears, you will realize that you took the correct approach. If she chooses him...better to know now then be walked on while she decides what to do. Regardless of what she says she has wronged you in her actions and words and secracy. 

Good luck.


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## ozarksguy

Thanks everyone for your advice. I was able to confirm the other man is not here. When I found my wife she seemed genuinely happy that I showed up. 

I will say a little while ago we came back to get room for her to shower and she made a point to put her phone in the bathroom when there was a charger in the room... Her phone was dead. It made me wonder why she would take it in the bathroom. Perhaps something to hide??

To the last poster regarding people not making those comments unless they've been there before. What you said makes sense. That comment was made in December before I knew anything. My wife swears nothing physical ever happened and at that time in December I just don't know when there would have been time fir her to get with him. She swears to ne it was only electronic. Although they did have a couple lunches and the happy hour where a bar mgr says she kissed him. 

I will say my wife tried to call me yesterday while I was flying. She later told me at that time she thought it was odd I didn't answer my phone and get words last night were "I thought you found something that upset you and you didn't want to talk to me". I said "is there anything else to find?". She said absoltely not but she said she knows how I react to innocent things. This exchange also made me think...why would she say that if there wasn't something else to find. Also this morning while I was at the hotel and she was at the conference she called me. I must have seemed quiet because she said "is everything okay" in a strange tone. Almost as though she was making sure I wasn't in the room stewing about something. Perhaps I'm overly sensitive, and perhaps she's overly sensitive to my emotional well-being. She does seem happy that I showed up. I swear I love my wife but I'm just going crazy inside with questions and fear. And I told her at one point I didn't want her to have so much communication with the other guy and she agreed to tone it down. I stopped short of saying cut it all off fir fear that she would lash out at me for controlling her...which she does say already
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Sorry, but he is there. Or else he turned around and flew home when she found out you were there. 

Cheaters LIE. And LIE WELL.

Taking her phone in the bathroom? Get hold of the phone. Call for the records tonight. Do something. She is BSing you.


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## ozarksguy

turnera said:


> Sorry, but he is there. Or else he turned around and flew home when she found out you were there.
> 
> Cheaters LIE. And LIE WELL.
> 
> Taking her phone in the bathroom? Get hold of the phone. Call for the records tonight. Do something. She is BSing you.



I was able to look through her phone last night. The only text she had with OM was last week. I know this bc he was way down on the text list and on iPhone your most recent texts with a person go to the top of the list. Also no recent calls with him. Also know this bc he's not on the recent incoming or outgoing and you can only clear the entire list on iPhone, not individual calls. Also we play a scrabble game in our phones. She plays scrabble with him. There's a chat section on the game and theirs is blank. And you can't clear the chat session in that game. 

Will say my wife and I had a fun time together on the town in dc last night. We talked about the last four months and she said again that things were flirty in texts a few months ago but not anymore. She also told me she told him that we are good and she loves me. Honestly this OM has nothing I don't. I just think he knew the right things to say to give her attention. I'm starting to believe that things have simmered down bc my wife loves me. She keeps telling me that. I'm sure some will say I'm naive. But after going through the phone I just didn't see any more evidence...especially since she couldn't delete one item without deleting them all and that was not the case.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ozarksguy

an update for those who've followed my thread...

i ended up meeting with the OM's wife for lunch today. i was very careful and let her do the talking... we talked about her marriage problems, and i talked, in very vague terms, about my concerns about trust in my relationship.

then... the honesty began. the OM's wife said she's suspected something between her husband and my wife for some time. she even mentioned that she figured out the two of them were at a 3-hour happy hour together, alone, in february. interestingly enough, the OM went home that night without his phone. told his wife he left it with a friend at work. the wife didn't buy his story and checked it out. she found out he lied. she then suspected my wife had his phone, because she searched his car and the house after he passed out drunk. it made me think... maybe he left the phone in my wife's car when they were in the car possibly making out. 

the OM's wife also told me that large sums of cash were taken out of their checking account in december. she said they were large enough sums that it could've been used for things like hotel rooms.

i was very careful in telling the OM's wife what all i knew. she agreed to seek out her own truth and said she wouldn't use my name in any attempt to get to the bottom of things.

so here's where i am. i believe things have cooled off with the OM and my wife loves me. BUT... i think some things happened in dec, january and february that she hasn't told me about. she swears she did nothing wrong... but the whole happy hour night, the time discrepency when she paid to when she got home, the OM loosing his phone when my wife told me he had it at happy hour because she loaded an application for him, and the fact that my wife came home looking like a mess that night. how can i get her to admit the truth to me? honestly i wouldn't neccessarily leave my wife because i do love her dearly. i just want the darn truth... but unless she spills the beans i'm screwed. also, if i confront her again... she'll blow up at me again and go into the whole "why can't you move forward or you're controlling me" mode...

anybody have any thoughts??


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## turnera

You can only get her to tell you the truth if she WANTS to. Why would she want to? If (1) she realizes the damage she is causing, (2) you are meeting all her Emotional Needs and not Love Busting her, (3) the OM is out of the picture.

That last one is hard if they work together. Basically, unless you have proof, you can't demand that she quit her job. So I would maybe invest more effort into backward snooping so that you can at least prove they have slept together. Once that happens, you can then tell her that you won't stay married unless she or he quits their job. Until one of them quits, the affair will go on, even if only in their minds; but we all know THAT is enough to keep them from being dedicated to their spouse.


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## ozarksguy

turnera said:


> You can only get her to tell you the truth if she WANTS to. Why would she want to? If (1) she realizes the damage she is causing, (2) you are meeting all her Emotional Needs and not Love Busting her, (3) the OM is out of the picture.
> 
> That last one is hard if they work together. Basically, unless you have proof, you can't demand that she quit her job. So I would maybe invest more effort into backward snooping so that you can at least prove they have slept together. Once that happens, you can then tell her that you won't stay married unless she or he quits their job. Until one of them quits, the affair will go on, even if only in their minds; but we all know THAT is enough to keep them from being dedicated to their spouse.



Thanks turnera. I can't see my wife quitting her job that she loves. Again my hope is that I built all this up in my head. But then again there are too many smoking guns regarding the past. I truly think it's over but I want to know about the past. I will say the OM's wife said about 2months ago her husband was in a really bad mood. She said it was like his heart was broken because his girlfriend had broken up with him 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Deejo

I understand wanting to know the truth, and the crappy feeling that your spouse isn't being forthcoming. The lies and denials would make a 4 year old blush. It is as if they are incapable of telling the truth.

So what if you simply assume they did have sex? Does that change anything for you? I don't get the impression that it does. So what's the difference?

You DO need to call her out on bizarre behavior. Taking the phone into the bathroom while she showers?
If she uses the 'controlling' label, (another tactic employed by most) point out that your 'complaint' is that she lied to, and betrayed you - and you don't like that much either.

What is disconcerting is that it doesn't appear that she has taken ownership and is remorseful about her choice.

I have said it many times, because it is exactly what applied in my case; there is a difference between being committed to reconciling and giving the _appearance_ of wanting to reconcile. One genuinely wants to recover the marriage. The other is a ruse to win your confidence and trust back while they continue to carry on the affair - just hide it better. Romance, and sex will _increase_, and it's just another deception.


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## turnera

That's why I always advocate exposing the affair. Yes, it can stop the affair. But the biggest effect exposure has is that it bursts the bubble the wayward is in - where they are A#1, primo, VIP because someone wants them - and makes them realize that they are no different or better than their spouse, their parents, their siblings, their friends. In fact, those very same people they felt 'ahead' of now look at them like they just bullied the local crippled kid back in 5th grade. 

Exposure is VERY humbling. And in all the cases I have seen, NO marriage will survive and prosper after an affair unless the wayward comes back to the marriage in HUMILITY. Anything other than that, it's their spouse's fault they cheated, or they just got caught - this time, or their spouse is a mean SOB and should just get over it...

The empathy is missing. For what the betrayed spouse is going through after being stabbed in the heart.

Only when the wayward SEES the stabwound can he/she honestly work to fix the marriage.


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## ozarksguy

so i've been thinking a lot about my lunch with the OM's wife this week, and what she knew about the night my wife and the OM had the secret one-on-one happy hour.

she new he was out, but he wouldn't answer his phone. he came home at 7:00 and was completely wasted, and told his wife a guy friend at work had his phone. she checked that out and found out it was a lie. the OM lives about 30 minutes from where he and my wife had happy hour... meaning he left at roughly 6:30.

my wife paid her bill at 6:00 and came home at 6:30. i clocked the time from the establishment to our house, during the same time frame, and driving the speed limit, it took me 8 minutes. and i can confirm that she didn't pay the bill at the table, then linger there for a few minutes more... this place makes everybody pay at the counter... so she would've physically had to get up from the table to pay... which she did at 6:00.

that night, as i was snooping in my wife's phone, and then facebook... i found on facebook that the OM sent my wife a message saying "please check your work email". he sent her a message in that manner because he knows i don't have access to her work email.

here's my scenario... they walked out at 6:00 and got in her car for a little kissy-face. she left the parking lot at 6:20 and got home at 6:30. while he was in her car... he left his phone in her car.

i asked my wife again about this, and she says she did not have his phone. i asked where it was... because the OM's wife looked all around their house and in the car and it wasn't there. i asked my wife where he left his phone, and she said she didn't know. i find this odd because they talked about everything under the sun... why would he not tell her where he left his phone? suspicious. mysteriously, the OM's phone showed up with him the next morning WHEN he got to work. my wife said "maybe he went somewere to sober up before going home and left his phone there". wrong... the timing wouldn't add up.

when i confronted my wife about this again, she denied any wrongdoing... but this time i paid attention to her body language. she was playing with her hair while telling me this, which some will say is a sign of lying.

honestly, my wife and i are doing so much better and i really think things are over with the OM. BUT... i just feel this desire to know the total truth about that night. i think she's lying to me because she knows it would hurt me, and i would probably never want to ride in her car again. but all the evidence points to my wife having his phone in her possession... i searched her purse that night, but stupidly did not search the car... my mistake.

should i keep pursuing this issue with her until she tells me the truth? i feel like we're on a path toward healing... but i don't want this one particular issue to eat away at me for the rest of my life...


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## ozarksguy

i should've clarified about the message on facebook to check her work email. my guess is his he said in that email (that i don't have access to) that "hey, i left my phone in your car"... because if he had said that in facebook i would have seen it, and he knew i would be able to access my wife's facebook and then ask questions...


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## turnera

How can you have healing if she lies to you?

How is that healing?

That is her clamming up to protect herself and you accepting it.

I'm sorry, but at what cost, truly, do you need this marriage? The cost of your dignity? Your soul? Honestly, do you need to be married to her that badly?


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## turnera

Personally, I would be visiting her boss today.


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## ozarksguy

what do you mean by visiting her boss turnera? to get a copy of the email the OM sent? or something else?

you ask do i need to be married to this woman. the answer is simply yes. am i hurt and is my trust destroyed? absolutely. but do i love her very deeply? tremendously. and that's the sad thing... in my wildest dreams i never imagined she would stray. like all couples we've had ups and downs, but that was the one area we both seemed committed to.

you're right... it's hard to talk about healing if there are still lies. honestly, if she would just tell me about what REALLY happened that night, it would help me to genuinely start the healing process. the wondering and now knowing can eat a person alive. i just thought if i provided some more specifics about the timing and the mysterious phone dissappearance, perhaps someone else would tell me i'm not crazy and that something probably did happen.


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## turnera

Don't they work together? I thought you said they did. If so, you can tell her/his boss and ask if they are going to do something to separate the two of them. As long as they still see each other, the affair is still going on, at least in their minds. And they will never be able to let go of each other mentally, and never be able to give themselves totally to their spouse.

If she won't tell you the truth it's because she loves herself more than you. You may love her madly, but to what end? She is suffering no consequences for this affair. That means that the NEXT one will happen even more easily. And she'll know that no matter what she does, you'll just sit there at home, moaning about what she's doing, and never leave her.

Why should she tell you the truth? You'll never leave. She doesn't have to.


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## Macca86

My question is this:

There is already (quite clearly) a huge amount of distrust in the relationship.

Even if she comes clean and says she did it or what ever it is you are looking for, will you ever trust her enough for the relationship to work?


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## ozarksguy

Macca...

You're right there is clearly a lot of mistrust. I do want to get to a point where I trust my wife again and don't worry so much. Can that happen? I hope... Will it? We will see.

I got some more information from the OM's wife in an email tonight. Either he was sleeping with my wife, or someone else. Apparently he bought a whole new wardrobe, new cologne, switched from briefs to boxers, started to "trim up" if you know what I mean, and got very aggressive and tried new things in bed with his own wife... she said all way out of character for him. She also found him hiding underwear in the closet after they had been worn. And this all apparently went down in December, at the time he and my wife were carrying on what I thought was just an EA... Of course the OM's wife said all this could've been with anybody... including an escort. But why would he invest so much time with my wife if he was just screwing an escort...

Honestly, after getting that information, I'm pretty numb tonight. I remember my wife also bought sexy new undergarments in December. I later asked her why she did that, and she said the EA made her feel sexy but she said "you got the benefit of the sexy stuff"...

I think I just need to go away by myself for awhile and figure some stuff out. My perception of reality is so mired right now that I don't know up from down.


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## turnera

I'm so sorry.


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## russ101

You need to either invest in a PI, and only have him follow her the next time the two of them are together and tape anything that goes on (so she can't deny it later), or get a trusted friend (one that she does not know) and have him or her do the same. I agree that there are a lot of inconsistencies there, but you are just guessing as to what is going on (that can drive you crazy). Find out once and for all. Are the two of them getting together anytime soon? If so, have someone ready to follow them.


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## turnera

I have to agree. You may end up in court over this, and there may be child custody fights...it's best just to have the evidence in case you ever need it. All a woman has to do to discredit her husband is to call the police and say she's afraid of him. He can be ruined. I've seen that scenario play out a couple dozen times, to men who swore over and over his wife would never harm him that way. Protect yourself, just to be safe.

That said, your marriage isn't over. You CAN take steps to turn this around. But it will require you actually having proof of what went down so you have a leg ot stand on.


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## ppl

you know i have a different point of view. it would appear this relationship/friendship is a major issue in your relationship unless there are other things going on that we are not hearing about. i believe that her valueing this friendship, no matter platonic or not, to the point of damaging her marriage tells you where you stand. if she is not willing to drop it than you have your answer. his wife can find out on her own without your input. i would not try to damage his relationship with his wife, it will only push him closer to yours. why would you tolerate or stay married to someone who puts you through this.


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## Deejo

This is what makes an affair so insidious. She is counting on your trust to buoy up her lie that nothing happened. All the more the tragedy is that you want to believe it.

That hole you feel in the middle of your chest? Many of us are familiar with it.

You should continue to give her your trust. Because if you do, she will let her guard down - and she will screw up.


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## tjohnson

Please clarify so people can give you advice that is based on being informed as to what is/is not correct inthe following:

You seemed to indicate things have gotten better recently (died down between them-at least you think) and you think it may be over but, you are still lamenting on the happy hour night and if something happened. 

Are they still keeping in close contact? 

Is there any evidence of current meetings?

Has your relationship changed over this time period? More/less intimacy. 

Again, try to mend your marriage but, don't be naive and lose your home and/or reasonable access to your kids because you were deluded to trust someone who has lied to you and has violated your trust. Regardless of what she says she has disrespected you and the vows she took by placing a higher value on this other relationship than the relationship with her husband. Her playing the “you are trying to control me” is a way for her to basically flip you the bird and tell you to mind your f*&’in business so she can carry on with this OM. She has been unfaithful with her actions and deception and lies. It is certain that you’re your wife has been unfaithful!!! The only unknown is to "what extent" she has been unfaithful IE have they had actual intercourse. 

You need to heed the advice of the previous post regarding protecting yourself is a smart one. You should consider saving money in small amount is in cash and stashing it for use for lawyer/PI or to protect yourself. There are too many smoking guns to ignore. I would assume that your wife and the OM were intimate. I would also consider the possibility that things are "better" because she knew you are onto her. After all you showed up at her convention. While she may have appeared happy to see you, she may want you to believe it is over so she can carry on. Most of us buy life insurance. We hope to live but, need to be smart about the possibility and be prepared. Same here..hope and pray for the best but, be prepared for the worst.


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## ozarksguy

tjohnson...

there has been more intimacy at home during this time period... and there is no evidence of current meetings... she even told me last night that she declined his request to play scrabble on the iPhone. i asked her why... she said she didn't want to be a distraction for him... and she wants everyone to focus on their own relationships and home life...

we talked again last night about these issues and she again told me that nothing happened between them except electronic flirting. i asked her if she would tell me if something happened and she said she would. i asked her why she would tell me, and she said "to move on". so i'm inclined to believe what she's saying to me... perhaps some will say i'm naive... and maybe i am.


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## Deejo

Then maybe you should tell her that his wife has evidence that he _did sleep with someone at the same time he was involved with you_

Accomplishes one of two things, it indicates that her relationship wasn't as exclusive as she thought ... or, she will panic.

You don't need to be any more specific than that. I know you want to believe her. Having been in your shoes, sadly, I don't.

Do keep in mind my earlier post. If it is apparent that she is committed to recovery, then does it really matter to you if she had sex with him or not?


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## nice777guy

Ozarks - I'm in a similar situation. A lot of suspicious activity but no real smoking gun.

I know you said things are better, but how do YOU feel? If you felt great about everything then you wouldn't be posting here still, right?

What does your GUT tell you? Is it over? And if it is - can you move on without never satisfying that nagging feeling that there was more to the story?

Deejo - if he calls her out on this other woman's "evidence" - and she panics - I doubt she would panic and confess - so would panic do any good?


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## turnera

Grrr! I am SO tired of seeing betrayed spouses acting in FEAR of ANGERING their (possibly) wayward spouses.

Your spouse acted in ways that are unbecoming to a marriage.

You have the RIGHT and the DUTY to call your spouse out on inappropriate behavior.


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## ozarksguy

i actually did tell my wife about the evidence that the OM's wife found... suggesting he was having a physical affair. my wife was shocked when i told her the information... and in fact she vehemently denied that she was every physical with him and she seemed disturbed by what she was learning about her friend. her words were "i don't think i knew him like i thought i knew him"...


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## Deejo

nice777guy said:


> Ozarks - I'm in a similar situation.
> Deejo - if he calls her out on this other woman's "evidence" - and she panics - I doubt she would panic and confess - so would panic do any good?


All goes back to the principle of 'threshold'. It isn't so much about whether or not she confesses, as it is that ozarksguy has his gut check that tells him he doesn't need to question any more. She either says and does things that convinces him she is invested in the marriage, or she says and does things that continues to leave him wondering what really happened.


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## Janie

I've read through this entire thread and I think I know what's nagging ozarksguy - I've experienced a similar situation.

There is great comfort in knowing a spouse can AND will admit to wrongdoing. The ability and willingness to be honest. 

If EVERYTHING you know about this EA is what you were able to dig up yourself, she is only playing defense - coming up with a cover story. And she is getting increasingly good at it. It begs the question... what haven't I found yet? And drives you to keep looking. 

Unless she 'comes clean' to all of it your trust will not be re-established. Until you know she feels remorse, trust will not be re-established. 

As they say 'confession is good for the soul'. Without unloading the burden of the secrets, you can never be sure she won't do it again. And you CAN be assured she won't be honest about it if/when she does. 

So, you are facing a life of spying on your wife. 

At this point, you know she hasn't come clean yet - evidenced by her jumpiness during the weekend out of town. She is readying herself for more cover stories - wanting to get the jump on it. If all was known, she would be in a place of greater peace.

You can't make her come clean. And you probably can't find out what happened. You can only make deductions that eat away from the inside. 

Things may be better... now. But, the nagging fear that she will not be honest with you in the future eats at you.

What you want, ozarksguy let me know if you agree, is for your wife to tell you all about it - everything - and express true remorse for hurting you and endangering your family. Fall on her sword. Until you see that, you will never regain your trust.


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## LuckyCharmH

Man let me tell you something after reading all these threads. 
1- I believe and certain your wife was involved in physical affair with him more than once or atleast semi affair.
2- if she had any any tiny tiny feelings or respect for you she would have stopped talking to that man the moment she knew you got upset. 
3- you have all the facts and you still trying to deny yourself
4- ok, lets say she came out clean, what are you going to do? forgive her? take her to a consouler? what is that going to do, she had all that time to fix her self and she didn't.
5- who cheats once will do it again and again if not now may be in future. 
6- you still very weak dealing with her. she knows whatever she does you will forgive her or believe her story. or cry a lil or ...
7- you need to wake up, and be tough. don't ever say you cant live without her because you can, and you will better person. the situation in your hands asking for divorce will get the kids and the house. if you wait you will lose. 
8- there is no reason for a married woman with kids texting a guy or go out with him for a lunch or dinner even if it was her cousin.

good luck


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## bestplayer

ozarksguy said:


> i actually did tell my wife about the evidence that the OM's wife found... suggesting he was having a physical affair. my wife was shocked when i told her the information... and in fact she vehemently denied that she was every physical with him and she seemed disturbed by what she was learning about her friend. her words were "i don't think i knew him like i thought i knew him"...


ozarksguy , it looks like you haven't asked your wife strictly not to keep any contact with her friend . Its pretty much clear between your wife & the other guy it is not just friendship its more than that . No body bothers to send hundereds of text to just a good friend , but you are still letting her convince you whatever the way she wants . Be a man , stop complaining about it , take action . If she can't get over her friend & distance herself from him even if it ruins her marriage , then You really dont need her . Make it clear to her.


Best of luck


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## ozarksguy

Thanks everyone for the advice...

My wife has stopped all contact with this man, to my knowledge. Last night she asked me to come into the office while she unfriended him on facebook. I also got a look at her phone, unbeknownst to her, this weekend and didn't see anything.

we talked again last night and she said she is appauled at learning of the OM's wife's suspicions about his behavior. she promised me again that she never slept with him, never kissed him, but did say yes they were flirty in texts and emails. she said at the time it was starting in december, she felt lonely. i told her last night that if she ever felt lonely again to talk to ME about it. she also swears to me that while he got dirty in texts/emails a couple of times to her, she never reciprocated that and simply wouldn't respond or answer to him when get got like that. she also said she wished i could've been with them at lunch... she claims he's a totally different person than he is electronically. she says he's very awkward in person, and extremely shy. she apologized to me last night for all the hurt, and for bringing this man into our life. she promised me that she would never sleep with anybody else, and that she loves me. i really am starting to believe her. now i'm sure there are people on this board who will tell me i'm stupid and she's just playing me. and i do think she was playing me for a long time because she wanted to continue a friendship with the OM, but not a physical relationship. she now says she realizes how harmful even the friendship was and she told me she's been going out of her way to avoid him...


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## turnera

Maybe she learned a valuable lesson. Time will tell. Good for you for standing up for yourself. It's what she needed.


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## kendall2

Glad to hear things r looking up for you guys. I've got the same gut feeling here. Any advice for another guy in the same boat?


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## ozarksguy

kendall...

i'm the last person to be giving advice on this subject. everybody kept telling me to trust my gut... and i certainly found what i thought were a LOT of smoking guns. but i've tried to step back and rationally look at the evidence and listen to my wife. i now see that i built a lot of scenarios/situations up in my head. although i do know it was an EA and she admits that... she also admits she's sorry for hurting me and she understands that harm it did to me. 

i wish you the best of luck... i hope you find peace... i know it's a gut-wrenching situation and it probably keeps you up at night. it actually helped me loose 20 pounds, which wasn't a bad thing


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## MEM2020

OG,
However you arrived at where you are - your wife clearly wants to make your marriage work. And THAT is the single most important aspect of this situation. If she is a good wife - and it sounds like she is - than I would move on and never raise this again. 





ozarksguy said:


> kendall...
> 
> i'm the last person to be giving advice on this subject. everybody kept telling me to trust my gut... and i certainly found what i thought were a LOT of smoking guns. but i've tried to step back and rationally look at the evidence and listen to my wife. i now see that i built a lot of scenarios/situations up in my head. although i do know it was an EA and she admits that... she also admits she's sorry for hurting me and she understands that harm it did to me.
> 
> i wish you the best of luck... i hope you find peace... i know it's a gut-wrenching situation and it probably keeps you up at night. it actually helped me loose 20 pounds, which wasn't a bad thing


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## sisters359

LuckyCharmH has some harmful advice. Just b/c there may have been cheating, it does not guarantee the other spouse will get the house and kids. Most states are "no fault" now and everything will be split 50/50 unless there is a compelling reason for the court to decide otherwise.

A woman who is married and has kids has every right to go out with her cousin. Geez. Talk about backwards.


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## kendall2

ozarksguy said:


> kendall...
> 
> i'm the last person to be giving advice on this subject. everybody kept telling me to trust my gut... and i certainly found what i thought were a LOT of smoking guns. but i've tried to step back and rationally look at the evidence and listen to my wife. i now see that i built a lot of scenarios/situations up in my head. although i do know it was an EA and she admits that... she also admits she's sorry for hurting me and she understands that harm it did to me.
> 
> i wish you the best of luck... i hope you find peace... i know it's a gut-wrenching situation and it probably keeps you up at night. it actually helped me loose 20 pounds, which wasn't a bad thing


Thanks for your wishes. I'm in limbo here. Our reationship has its ups and downs. Right now its up, and its easier to trust her then, but during the downs I get a bit paranoid. Thats the hard part to figure out. If I'm being paranoid. My wife certainly thinks so. 

Reading your thoughts certainly gave me some perspective and helped. YOur situation was/is a lot like mine. I hope mine ends well too.


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## ozarksguy

Hi everyone. To update you my wife and I are doing great. She has cut off all communication with the OM and she seems genuinely focused on us. Now comes the but....

I can't seem to get over these nagging feelings inside of me that something physical happened that I'm not aware of. I've tried to focus on the positive and see the good things that are happening. But I still grapple with the idea that the OM knows something I don't. My wife swears to me that nothing happened but I keep thinking about all the advice I've received on this forum about cheating spouses who will deny and lie until they're blue in the face. What will learning the truth do for me?? It will simply justify to me that I was never crazy. Would I firgive my wife? Absolutely. But I just want her to b honest with me even if it hurts. I asked her if she would tell me if they kissed and she said she would to quote move on. But there is still this part of me that believes she wouldn't tell me because she fears it would destroy me. On the contrary it would help me to stop thinking about this every minute of every fricken day. 

I will admit that I spotted a strange stain on one of my wifes business suits this week. It's a suit she hasn't worn in months. I actually ordered one of those sperm test kits to see if the stain might be what I fear. I should get the test tomorrow. Tell me I'm stupid for doing this and that I should just leave well enough alone??
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Crypsys

Ozark,

I've learned sometimes in life 1+1=2, other times 1+1=3. Humans have the ability to fit everything they perceive into supporting their world view. Sometimes we may believe in something so much we can mold/force everything we see/hear into fitting into that view regardless if they are really related or not. In other words we can see things being connected that really are not.

I agree that what your wife did was not the best thing, and she made a wrong choice. But frankly at some point you will have to make a final decision on whether she physically cheated on you or not. When you find yourself looking at a stain on a blouse and thinking it may be semen, you know you are fairly obsessed about it.

For your own mental health you are probably going to have to make a decision. Will you trust what your wife is telling you, or will you live the rest of your life a wreck, always looking at a mole-hill and seeing a mountain there? If you continue on this path, your worry may be a self-fulfilling fantasy; you may loose your wife. At some point she WILL tire of constant mis-trust and questioning. You may then loose your relationship. What would you feel like knowing you may have lost it when nothing physical ever happened?

You have to think to yourself, is it really healthy when your first thought on seeing a stain on your wife's blouse is "I wonder if that is Semen?". That doesn't sound healthy to me IMO. I think for your own health, you may need to let it go.

That being said, take my advice with a grain of salt. In the end you have to live your life with whatever choices you make.

Just my 2 cents...


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## Mike188

Your situation sounds just like mine. Your wife has you pretty convinced that nothing really happened and she is sorry (or kind of sorry) but you still wonder if you know everything.


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## nice777guy

If things have been going better, but you find out it is semen, what will you do? Is this really something you need to know, especially if it is now over?


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## turnera

IMO, it's time to realize life is full of compromises, and we will NEVER get 100% of what we want. So we make a decision to move forward with what we CAN have. Is it 100% perfect? No, but you never would have been 100% perfect after the cheating - emotional or physical - anyway. 

If she gives you everything else you ever ask for except for a smoking gun...it's time to move on.


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## ozarksguy

Thanks everyone for the perspective. It's true, one must make a decision to move on... and I'm sincerely trying to do that. I need to learn how to put the obsessive thoughts behind me and trust what is happening NOW. Honestly my wife couldn't be better to me and again, all communication with the OM has been cut-off...(i know because i still check)

As far as testing a stain... yes that clearly indicates I'm still obsessed about finding that smoking gun to validate my gut feelings. what would it prove or disprove? i'm not sure. if it's my worst fear what would that mean? i don't know. 

i truly appreciate the feedback though and this has certainly been some good food for thought today...


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## kendall2

ozarksguy said:


> kendall...
> 
> i'm the last person to be giving advice on this subject. everybody kept telling me to trust my gut... and i certainly found what i thought were a LOT of smoking guns. but i've tried to step back and rationally look at the evidence and listen to my wife. i now see that i built a lot of scenarios/situations up in my head. although i do know it was an EA and she admits that... she also admits she's sorry for hurting me and she understands that harm it did to me.
> 
> i wish you the best of luck... i hope you find peace... i know it's a gut-wrenching situation and it probably keeps you up at night. it actually helped me loose 20 pounds, which wasn't a bad thing


Got a personal question for you OG? Dont answer if you dont want to. 
How was your sex life? Cuz ours is up and down like a yo yo. whereas for most of our marriage its been pretty steady. 

The reason I ask because when my wife cheated many years ago, our sex life at the time was fantastic which I cant figure out? Now its up and down depending if we are fighting about her current "boyfriend" When we argue about it she gets real cold, but I let things slide for a few weeks our sex life goes red hot!


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## Deejo

kendall2 said:


> Got a personal question for you OG? Dont answer if you dont want to.
> How was your sex life? Cuz ours is up and down like a yo yo. whereas for most of our marriage its been pretty steady.
> 
> The reason I ask because when my wife cheated many years ago, our sex life at the time was fantastic which I cant figure out? Now its up and down depending if we are fighting about her current "boyfriend" When we argue about it she gets real cold, but I let things slide for a few weeks our sex life goes red hot!


2 primary reasons why sex will go up during an affair:

1. Simply, their drive is 'up'. It's been kick-started by TOM

2. If they are having sex with you, they believe you are less likely to suspect infidelity.


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## ozarksguy

kendall...

our love life was pretty normal in december when she was heavily involved in the EA with the OM. in fact at one point she even told me that all her exchanges with him made her feel desired but she said to me... "you got the benefit of that in the bedroom"...

i'm now of the belief that nothing physical happened... but i still struggle and when i tell my wife about my struggles with emotions she gets frustrated with me... not all the time, but a lot of the times. i wish she would understand that it's not easy to get over the betrayal...even if it never crossed that line into a PA.


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## kendall2

ozarksguy said:


> kendall...
> 
> our love life was pretty normal in december when she was heavily involved in the EA with the OM. in fact at one point she even told me that all her exchanges with him made her feel desired but she said to me... "you got the benefit of that in the bedroom"...
> 
> i'm now of the belief that nothing physical happened... but i still struggle and when i tell my wife about my struggles with emotions she gets frustrated with me... not all the time, but a lot of the times. i wish she would understand that it's not easy to get over the betrayal...even if it never crossed that line into a PA.


*you got the benefit of that in the bedroom"...*

I was stunned to read the above line. My wife just told me the exact same thing. That our sex life is better because of her "chats" with her boss.
I'm pretty sure nothing physical happened either but the same night (looking back in hindsight) something happened between her and her boss ; we went home later and she did things to me in the bed that she's never done before or since. She was unbelievable in bed. And then I read a text from TOM the next day "Do you feel guilty?" "And r u upset?" over and over.

As for the wife we are fighting constantly and she says I have to let go of the past when she hasn't even admitted she's done anything wrong!


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## ozarksguy

kendall...

interesting that we got the same line...very interesteing indeed.

my wife and i were doing better, but now it seems like we're struggling again. i made the mistake of asking her questions again this weekend about whether they got physical... damn me for asking questions  she says nothing ever happened but i just think there are too many smoking guns. i'm TRYING to move on but it's fricken hard... and i can't seem to make her understand that. she goes through periods where i think she wants to help me move on, then she just gets frustrated and pissed again. i will say both times i've confronted my wife and asked questions lately (again how dare i ask questions) she started playing with her hair in an odd way BOTH times, in the exact same manner. now perhaps i'm reading too much into that, but they'll tell you that's one of the signs of someone who is nervous and lying. honestly, i would forgive her if she would just tell me the truth so i would quit thinking and WONDERING about what happened. i feel like she has the power to put my mind at ease, and maybe she has by being forthcoming that nothing happened. but in the back of my mind, i know there was more and she won't tell me for fear that it will rock my world even more. if the OM's wife had the same suspicions i did, about the same events in question... what do they say... "where there's smoke there's fire"... 

i will say that my wife has said and done a few things uncharacteristic of herself in bed. a few months ago she said to me "sometimes a girl just wants to get f*****". she has NEVER said that to me EVER before. when we were on vacation she tried to seduce me in the bathroom while the kids were in the other room, and she was drunk at the time. while that was nice, it was WAY out of character for her. and oddly enough, an hour after that very episode, when i took the kids out for a walk on the beach, my wife went to the lobby and emailed the OM that "she really missed him and wanted him to know"... duh....WTF??


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## turnera

Sorry, but she was pretending you were him. He wasn't there, you were, so you were good enough.

You could try telling her what you just said - if you could just get the whole truth, you wouldn't punish her for it, and you WOULD move past it.

Or you could tell her you require a lie detector test before you do anything else.


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## cody5

1 - An emotional affair as deep as the one you describe between your wife and her friend is just as bad as many physical affairs. What's worse?: that she poured her heart and soul out to a stranger and committed her emotions to him for an extended period of time, behind your back. Or if she got a quicky once with a stranger because she was horny and regrets it. This is already as bad as it needs to be for her to help you, and she chooses not to. That's bull****.

2 - I've only been on here since Sept 2009, but I've already seen all of the patterns. One is they ONLY admit to what they've been caught with. Your wife is a little to intense with the "it was only emotional, we never touched" line for it to be believeable. She's too willing to give up that info to keep you off the physical track.

But she is NEVER going to admit to the physical part, if there even is one. NEVER. Get used to that or give her a polygraph. There's no in-between. The only way she is going to admit to the physical part is when you force her out the door with your accusations and she screams it at you as she's leaving with a suitcase.

Other that that, be strong. No groveling. No accusing. "You are the one that hurt our relationship, YOU need to be the one that comes to ME looking for help. As soon as you want to face this and work with me, I'll be sleeping in the den".

She is NEVER going to come clean. Change your strategy. Good luck


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## kendall2

ozarksguy said:


> kendall...
> 
> interesting that we got the same line...very interesteing indeed.
> 
> my wife and i were doing better, but now it seems like we're struggling again. i made the mistake of asking her questions again this weekend about whether they got physical... damn me for asking questions  she says nothing ever happened but i just think there are too many smoking guns. i'm TRYING to move on but it's fricken hard... and i can't seem to make her understand that. she goes through periods where i think she wants to help me move on, then she just gets frustrated and pissed again. i will say both times i've confronted my wife and asked questions lately (again how dare i ask questions) she started playing with her hair in an odd way BOTH times, in the exact same manner. now perhaps i'm reading too much into that, but they'll tell you that's one of the signs of someone who is nervous and lying. honestly, i would forgive her if she would just tell me the truth so i would quit thinking and WONDERING about what happened. i feel like she has the power to put my mind at ease, and maybe she has by being forthcoming that nothing happened. but in the back of my mind, i know there was more and she won't tell me for fear that it will rock my world even more. if the OM's wife had the same suspicions i did, about the same events in question... what do they say... "where there's smoke there's fire"...
> 
> i will say that my wife has said and done a few things uncharacteristic of herself in bed. a few months ago she said to me "sometimes a girl just wants to get f*****". she has NEVER said that to me EVER before. when we were on vacation she tried to seduce me in the bathroom while the kids were in the other room, and she was drunk at the time. while that was nice, it was WAY out of character for her. and oddly enough, an hour after that very episode, when i took the kids out for a walk on the beach, my wife went to the lobby and emailed the OM that "she really missed him and wanted him to know"... duh....WTF??


Og: 
Our situations seem similar. I read your posts at the beginning, and their is a lot I see thats the same.
I dont know if its just wishful thinking on my part that it didn't get physical cuz if it did its not the physical nature of it that would get to me rather the lying.
But we are getting better, I went for counselling and the counsellor helped a lot. He encouraged me to get my wife to meet one on one with him so he can get her to admit to herself that what she is doing is an EA. She still won't admit it right out. She only says she is sorry for acting in a way that I felt hurt by. That if I wasn't bothered by what she did it would've been ok. (see my other posts for more details of what happened)

All I can say is that you should go for counselling and have your wife see a counsellor too; separetly at first. She may admit to secrets that she wouldnt admit to in front of you.

Be strong and don't dwell on the bad stuff all day. That was getting to me and my counsellor taught me some coping strategies to keep my mind off the negativety. I know its hard though; I have my bad days still too. I just about walked out on her last week but I cant leave my kids. Something else that helps me is that I tell myself I would forgive her assuming she admitted all so I just tell myself why not just forgive her anyways. 

I got her to stop all personal contact with the OM; she still works with him but at least there is no more texting (she also agreed not to erase any more messages)


I hear you about the fact that without a smoking gun there is no way she is going to admit to a full-blown affair. The consequences would be earth-shattering for us. 

All the best to you and God bless.


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## no1.daddy2kids

I'll post this in hopes of you getting this stopped asap, one way or another.

I finalized my divorce yesterday. It all started when she was in training at hospice, with the hospice chaplain, none the less. It all started with chatting at class and text messaging. Now we are divorced. 

Your only choice here, that is if you want to have any chance of saving things (in my opinion) is to force her hand. tell her that this has to stop with him or you WILL file. Go see an attorney, get this info and get things figured out so you can file quick. If she says ok, monitor EVERYTHING. If it starts again, serve her. If she calls your bluff, serve her.

I say this because i didn't call her bluff. She filed, and at times during my last 10 months, I have felt at a disadvantage. YOU are the one being wronged. 

If you think this marrigae is worth saving. If you think you can trust her and have her back in her life, do it. Marriage is worth it. Marriage is hard. 

Trust your instinct on what is going on here...


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## ozarksguy

an update...

i honestly think this situation has made me crazy, and do crazy things. 

my wife has broken off all contact with the OM. i know that's over. but she keeps talking to me about the desire to have friends and have a life outside of our marriage/household. i get that... we all need friends and an outlet. last week she went to happy hour twice with co-workers. on the first date, i tried to call her to see if i could join her during my dinner break from work. she didn't answer her phone. later when she got home, i told her that i thought she was ignoring me and i just wanted to stop by for a few minutes. she told me she didn't want me to stop by. she was with 4 other people and she told me where she was, after the fact. she said she just wanted to have some fun and for me to not be weird about the group or anything. 

then this weekend, i notice her logging into her phone and i see that she has changed her passcode. of course i take note of the new passcode and when she was in the shower last night i logged on. i didn't find anything suspicious, although she is texting with a couple of male co-workers...innocent friendly stuff. to my surprise, my wife walked out of the shower to see me looking in her phone. she was dumfounded and so was i. i was very ashamed, but told her that it seemed suspicious to me that she changed her code so it made me wonder. she said she did that because she feels like i try to control her every move and she wants a little privacy in her life. i will admit i have tried to monitor her a lot since i found out about the EA in the first place. but honestly, i've NEVER tried to control her before and it's my FEAR that another EA or PA might start that feeds my insecurity and suspicions. granted i didn't find anything, but it still makes me suspicious. 

she's very upset with me over the phone snooping last night. and i understand her perspective and how my actions have caused her to react. i'm starting individual counseling again... what else can i do? i think she just wants friends, and i want her to have friends... but how can i seperate understanding her need for friends with my fear that a friendship will turn into something more, like it did once before??


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## turnera

TOO BAD!!!!!!

That is what HAPPENS when you cheat - you LOSE the right to have secrecy in your marriage.

If she doesn't understand that, you need to leave her.


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## citizen56

Install a keylogger on all her pcs at work and at home. Save the chat logs and emails as evidence. You'll need them in court. Take a couple days off from work without letting her know, and follow her (discreetly) or have a friend do it. Take photos of all her interactions with the guy. Save them.

Once you have enough evidence - sounds like she's really cheating up a storm, so it shouldn't take long - get a good lawyer and show them the evidence. Start the divorce process. Get all your banking and assets in order. You'll want to protect what's yours before the confrontation because women can be nutty and it will probably go to hell in short order if you don't. Once you're ready, tell her you want a divorce, that you have evidence of infidelity, and show it to her. Good luck. You're going to need it.


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## ozarksguy

well... things aren't good at home. my wife is very hurt by my suspicions and the fact that she caught me going through her phone sunday night. she says she's done nothing wrong and tried everything in her power to make me her priority in the last several months... but i can't get over my suspicions and trust her. she's right to a degree... i have gone to crazy lengths to spy on her and control the situation. that behavior was born out of learning of the EA, and doing everything i can to make sure that it was over, and that it didn't happen again. 

my wife has asked me for space, and we've decided to spend the next several weekends apart. we work opposite schedules so it's not hard to be "two ships passing in the night" during the work week. she did tell me today that she loves me, wants to be married to me and wants to be my best friend. but she says i've pushed her so far away by my attempts to manipulate her and treat her like a child by spying that she needs time to sort through her feelings...

so at this point, i know that the EA ended a long time ago. and i now believe the fact that nothing else happened and that my wife has been devoted to me. clearly, it's my inability to trust and move forward that has created the current strife in our relationship. makes me wonder how many other couples go through months of suffering like this because the cheated-on spouse can't deal with their emotions...


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## nice777guy

Look - I've been where you are. In fact, you are probably in a better place than I was. But the way she's acting - pushing the blame back on you, telling you she needs space - just be careful. 

Your reaction to what's happened is totally reasonable. I'm just wonderin if she's using your own insecurities against you to gain space to get things started again.

How and why are you so sure that she's cut off communication?

I really, really hope I'm wrong, but this sounds like part of the "script." Act II I believe...


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## ozarksguy

niceguy777..

thanks for the thoughts. i haven't seen any evidence in her phone of any communications... and she's even shown me that she blocked the OM on facebook. she says she's taking steps to avoid him at the office. so i have to believe her....

the problem is she feels like she has no trust and she feels like i'm treating her like a child. honestly i was pretty embarassed when she caught me going through her phone. there was nothing there... and i know she didn't erase anything because she thought i didn't have her new passcode...

i honestly don't think she's trying to strike back up with the OM or any OM for that matter. i think she's honestly sick and tired of being monitored... and i'm tired of monitoring her. my own fear is what it's based on...


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## turnera

ozarksguy said:


> she says she's done nothing wrong


That's not actually true, though, is it?

fwiw, if you truly feel sure she isn't going to cheat, DO move on. Only you know her. But if I were you I wouldn't be doing so when she has a password protect on her phone. 

She LOST the right to have a password protect by cheating on you.

What does she say when you tell her that? Or are you too afraid of pissing her off to take that stance?


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## ozarksguy

when i asked about the password change... she said it was after she went to happy hour last week and i asked her 20 questions about it. her contention is she's not doing anything and wants to be treated like an adult. i get that. and at this point, she's pissed at me because of all the "manipulation" and "efforts to watch her every move"... she keeps saying she's an adult and needs friends in her life. she even said to me she doesn't want another man in her life... just friends. and she wants to feel like her husband won't go crazy every time she talks to somebody else. i don't want to go crazy... the only reason i have been crazy was finding out about the EA the way that i did, and the fear that it could happen again. 

and i will say... i'm locked out of the cell phone account again...


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## Affaircare

Ozarkguy~

Will you please take a look at this post? http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...op-trust-issues-affaircare-you-out-there.html Look at my replies #7 and #10.

As recently as two weeks ago your wife was in contact with the Other Man/Other Men and her emotional affair was continuing...just further underground. ANY contact means that the affair is continuing, and as long as she is not working on recovering the marriage, there is no such thing as "an innocent friendship." So no matter what she says, her EAs are continuing. 

Since she is still involved in her affair, she is lying to you and trying to throw you off track by telling you she has stopped and that it's over etc. You are the man to whom she has made a vow to "act in a way so that affection and loyalty are committed and dedicated to a private person to whom loyalty is due." Is she acting so that her AFFECTION and LOYALTY are committed to you alone? If not, then she's having an affair. See how easy that is? 

Soooo... there are Seven steps to end your spouse's affair . Please click on that article and start with Step #1: Collecting Evidence. This is not so you can show her and prove it to her that she's having an affair. If you caught her IN THE ACT, she would say, "It's not what it looks like" as she put her clothes back on. Nope, they is to prove to you that you are not crazy--something IS going on and your gut feeling is right. 

After you are convinced, move to Step #2: Confront Her. Tell her you know the affair is continuing, you have proof, don't tell her what it is or where you have it...but say that you have had enough lying and you want her to stop the affair. Then let her know that means ending ALL contact with any other males for the time being, and giving you passwords and access to ALL her emails, IM, her phone, her laptop...EVERYWHERE so you can verify her honesty. She either does that voluntarily or admits what she's done is wrong, or you move to the next step. 

Time to stop wringing your hands and grow a big, manly brass pair. Stand up for your family and respect yourself enough to stop enabling her unfaithfulness.


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## questions

Hi,
I can empathize with your hurt and pain. Having said that, I want to ask you what you really want. You said that you don't want to leave your wife and want to stay married even if she did have a PA. I feel that some people are giving you their own filters, their own sense of betrayal, anger, hurt from their own experiences. It may have nothing to do with your own experience, and you might want to consider that what they are telling you are their own emotions from their own past experiences. If you do want to keep your marriage, you don't have any choice but to forgive and forget. If you can't do that, you can't choose to stay married. With that much doubts, pain and suspicions, it's enough to ruin any strong, healthy and happy relationships. You can choose to continue to dwell on the pain, but I can only see that ending badly for both of you. If both of you want to work on the relationship, you will have to let it go, and it's not for her benefits It's for your own peace and happiness. I sincerely hope that you can reach deep to find the forgiveness so you can move on past this...


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## turnera

I have no filter of betrayal etc. I just know psychology. I know what works to get people to stop being Users. Or at least, to stop BEING used.


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## nice777guy

Questions....

I think when most people say they want to stay married, they are assuming that the biggest part of the problems have stopped and that they can begin rebuilding. But you can't rebuild on shaky ground.

People who have nothing to hide don't suddenly decide to put a protection code on their phone. And she really hasn't had much time to re-establish that she is trustworthy.

If Ozarks posts this same type of story again in a year - that he's still looking through her phone and finding nothing, hasn't seen anything for months instead of weeks or days - THEN maybe he should read your post.



questions said:


> Hi,
> I can empathize with your hurt and pain. Having said that, I want to ask you what you really want. You said that you don't want to leave your wife and want to stay married even if she did have a PA. I feel that some people are giving you their own filters, their own sense of betrayal, anger, hurt from their own experiences. It may have nothing to do with your own experience, and you might want to consider that what they are telling you are their own emotions from their own past experiences. If you do want to keep your marriage, you don't have any choice but to forgive and forget. If you can't do that, you can't choose to stay married. With that much doubts, pain and suspicions, it's enough to ruin any strong, healthy and happy relationships. You can choose to continue to dwell on the pain, but I can only see that ending badly for both of you. If both of you want to work on the relationship, you will have to let it go, and it's not for her benefits It's for your own peace and happiness. I sincerely hope that you can reach deep to find the forgiveness so you can move on past this...


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## ozarksguy

I think questions and niceguy both have good points.

i think our relationship has suffered because of my insecurities and continued suspicions. i also believe that if i could just let it go, things would be fine. my wife said to me today that our marriage was never threatened or in trouble. she says we have to rebuild our relationship, and for me that means being able to trust her again. i'm starting individual counseling to help me find some coping tools to better understand WHY the EA hurt me so much, and why it's fueled an obsession to watch over my wife like a hawk...which isn't healthy.

niceguy... i think you're right that it's only been a few months since interaction was cut off with the OM. and if i'm on here in a year still looking through her phone, that will indeed shed light on a much larger problem. i feel like my problem today is being able to seperate my fears/concerns regarding the EA, and my wife's innocent friendships. at the end of the day she comes home to me... she loves me... and tells me that frequently. once i can trust her fully, and be assured that another EA isn't a threat, then i feel we will be great. my wife even said today that she feels once i can find peace in my life and deal with my emotions that she knows we will be perfect again.


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## nice777guy

ozarksguy said:


> my wife even said today that she feels once i can find peace in my life and deal with my emotions that she knows we will be perfect again.


So - its all up to you then?

You sound a lot like me.

Your wife changing her passcode might not be a big deal. Plus, you probably really WANT to believe her and you really WANT to move forward. And hey, if its all YOUR fault, YOU can go to therapy, become a better person - YOU can FIX IT!

But don't forget that your wife is the one who chose to lie to you and step outside of your marriage.

Changing the code on the phone just doesn't make any sense - especially if she recognizes the importance of re-establishing trust. And now she's trying to convince you that the lack of trust is YOUR problem, not hers. 

The phone code and the transfer of blame - so soon after her betrayal - are both big red flags. They aren't proof of guilt. But you would be foolish to bury your head in the sand because you think this is your fault and don't want to upset her with your behavior.

You mention other innocent friendships. Were you "paranoid" about those before? Do you have a history of accusing your wife of things that aren't true? How long have you been keeping track of her phone and texting habits? Did it start before or after you found out what was going on? *In other words, are you truly a jealous, controlling person by nature, or is this primarily a direct reaction to what she did?*

Keep your eyes open and don't be so quick to take ownership of this problem.


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## nice777guy

And I just re-read a previous post.

THERE IS NO GOOD REASON THAT YOU SHOULD BE LOCKED OUT OF THE PHONE BILL. MY WIFE DID THIS TO ME TOO - FOR MY OWN GOOD. TWO MONTHS LATER - WHEN EA #1 WAS FINALLY OVER - SHE GAVE ME THE CODE AND PASSWORD. THE FIRST THING I DID WAS GO BACK AND CHECK HOW QUICKLY THINGS HAD RESUMED AFTER SHE LOCKED ME OUT OF THE ACCOUNT. SHE HAD CALLED HIM ABOUT ONE HOUR AFTER TALKING TO THE CELL PHONE COMPANY TO HAVE THE PASSWORD CHANGED.

Look - I feel bad here - but I'm seeing my history repeated. I haven't given up, and I still see some chance for things to work out for me, so I'm not trying to tell you to cut your losses and leave, or to be prepared to end it. *JUST KEEP YOUR EYES OPEN AND TRUST YOUR GUT.*

What I figured out was that I could still see shared usage on my cell phone. So, even when I was locked out, I was able to see that my wife - who had been texting another man 100 times a day - was once again texting in very high volumes and was doing so when I wasn't around. I never saw her text - but I could see the text number rising daily by looking at the joint account info on my phone. See if you have this option and see if her usage activity is in line with what you see when you are together.


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## ozarksguy

nice guy... you make some great points. she does make me feel like a lot of our current problems are my fault. when she went to happy hour on cinco de mayo, she wouldn't answer her phone. i'll admit i called a lot that night because it pissed me off that i was at work and she wouldn't take my calls. that was the night she changed the code again because she said i freaked her out with the high volume of calls... trying to keep tabs on her when she was "doing nothing wrong"

and as far as locking me out of the account... that's a big thorn in my side. i've asked her why and she says she doesn't want me obsessing about who she's texting/talking to when she claims there's nothing sinister going on. i say to her... well you can see who i call but i can't see who you call? her response was "we will get you your own account by yourself"...currently my number is on HER account and i'm not an OWNER on the account so i can get any information.

you're also right that i shouldn't be so quick to accept blame. what she did hurt me increadibly. and before that i was not the super jealous type at all. so now, naturally, i'm skeptical of stories and what other men's intentions are toward my wife. now, have i acted a bit crazy in my efforts to keep an eye on her? yes, i'll admit to that. but WHY have i felt the need to keep watch? because what she did hurt me and i feel like i was blindsided by it. at the time everything was great in our marriage. so i think i'm worried that if everything is okay again, am i being naive to any potential relationships, and or feelings, that she might be delving into again.

i hope this makes sense...


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## nice777guy

What you are saying makes perfect sense - re-read what you've written and take a minute to soak it in. I think you are dead on.

I thought my marriage was OK too.

Your marriage might be "fine" - but I can see where sneaking around and getting attention from new people could be a real thrill rush - a rush that your marriage, even if fine, wouldn't be able to compete with right now.

Double check your cell phone. I have A&T - the account is in my wife's name - on the same Option menu that has "Camera, Music, CV, etc..." - there's an option for "My Account" which won't show details, but will show usage totals. Its worth taking another look.

Happy hour - she should have answered her phone the first time you called. After answering the first time, if you kept calling every five minutes, then she has a reason to turn it off. And for your part, if she doesn't answer the first time, leave a message and then try to let it go.

You need to resist that need to call repeatedly. Instead of talking about why she isn't answering, you end up talking about YOUR repeated calls. I know - been there.

It still could be nothing. Don't panic, don't give up and don't try to fix everything RIGHT NOW. Take everything on here with a grain of salt (even my sage advice). TRUST YOUR GUT AND KEEP YOUR EYES OPEN. And its hard, but try not to panic when something looks weird. Don't call her 50 times - it will allow her to turn the attention back to you, you will push her away, you'll feel guilty and you'll get NOWHERE.

Hang in there.


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## ozarksguy

nice guy...

you're right... i should have left a message that night because i did get obsessive and it was totally turned back on me. my gut tells me that she's focused on our marriage again, but is tired of my insecurities, and just wants to make new friends and be social. part of our problem was we have both isolated each other from social settings for several years because of kids/jobs. now that our kids are getting older, my wife has a yearning to be around other friends and be social. she doesn't have a best girl friend persay... but she has told me she's trying to work on her female friendships. 

i'm sorry that you've been in this boat before... hell i'm sorry that ANYBODY has to be in this boat. it sucks, and completely consumes your life. i used to be a level-headed guy, and even relished time that my wife and i got to spend a part...just because it was healthy. now i find myself wanting to be around her all the time for fear that the minute i'm gone, she'll feel lonely again and the temptation to burden her troubles on a willing-listener might be too great to resist. 

thanks for the advice though. i have got a lot of good feedback on this site... but like you say, you have to take some with a grain of salt.


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## Affaircare

Couple of things ozarkguy. First, both my sets of grandparents are from the Ozarks so we may well be "cousins" :rofl: One set is from Mountainburg, Arkansas and the other set from Cherokee Village, Arkansas. 

Second, I have a concern. You wrote:


> ... i think our relationship has suffered because of my insecurities and continued suspicions. i also believe that if i could just let it go, things would be fine.


I have to tell you that being an expert in helping folks recover from an affair, that this is hooey! In real life you have insecurity because she has treated you in a way that does not build a safe, secure relationship. You are suspicious because after an ENORMOUS betrayal, she continues to act suspiciously. She is telling you to "just let go" because she doesn't want you snooping around anymore...but you would probably feel a LOT more secure and less suspicious if she were honest with you, not secretive, open and transparent, and allowed you access for several months to prove she is focusing her affection and loyalty on you. 

You also wrote: 


> my wife said to me today that our marriage was never threatened or in trouble. she says we have to rebuild our relationship, and for me that means being able to trust her again.


Again this is hooey! Okay it is valuable to be able to trust her again--I agree with that--but you don't just blindly hand someone blanket trust, especially not after they have already broken that trust! Nope, trust is EARNED! You want to trust her? That means that SHE HAS TO ACT IN A TRUSTWORTHY MANNER!! See right now, her words and her actions do not match. Someone is trustworthy when their words match their actions. In your case, it would be reasonable to trust her after she's had an affair, when she says she'll be at work and she IS where she says she'll be...when she gives you access to her accounts and phone and bills so you can verify her honesty...when she demonstrates by her ACTIONS that she all of her affection and loyalty is for you! Right now, her affection is partially for some others (she doesn't mind hurting you if she can get enjoyment or pleasure from others) and her loyalty is DEFINITELY not for you and you alone! 

What makes me somewhat angry, cousin, is that you are falling for this! Now I'm not saying you don't have some trust issues...maybe you do for all I know. What I am saying is that it is reasonable to not trust her right now. She is not acting in a way that is worthy of trust! And what's worse, she's not ACTING trustworthy and then has convinced you somehow that you are the one with the issue!! This just is not the case. 

When she is behaving trustworthy, it will look like this. She will give you access to her facebook, all her emails, her laptop, her cellphone, and her phone bill so you can check on her if you like. She will not ever even ONCE talk to the OM or any other men for a little while. She will be where she says she'll be, for as long as she says ... or she'll call with an update and why it changed. She would prefer to spend time with you over spending time with people from work or other men. She would be honest and talk to you about her day, her thoughts, etc...not just her friends. And she would take personal responsibility for the damage she did and is still continuing to do!

Since you do not see ANY of that kind of trustworthy behavior, the problem is not your "trust issues" or lack of trust. The root core problem is that she actually is not worthy of trust!!



> i'm starting individual counseling to help me find some coping tools to better understand WHY the EA hurt me so much, and why it's fueled an obsession to watch over my wife like a hawk...which isn't healthy.


ozarkguy, you do not have an unhealthy obsession. What has happened is that your wife betrayed you in the deepest, most devastating way a person can betray someone they love. Thereafter, every time you have checked on her, she is continuing in that betrayal. Thus it is HEALTHY to not trust her! See the problem here? It would be an unhealthy obsession if you checked on her and she was not contacting other men...but you still were going nuts. It would be unhealthy if you had access to everything openly and she told you intimate things (not sex, I mean close, personal things) and you still were obsessed. But she's not. She is STILL covering up and every time you check you find new betrayal. AND she blames you for her issue!

The final kicker--you write: 


> i feel like my problem today is being able to seperate my fears/concerns regarding the EA, and my wife's innocent friendships. at the end of the day she comes home to me... she loves me... and tells me that frequently. once i can trust her fully, and be assured that another EA isn't a threat, then i feel we will be great. my wife even said today that she feels once i can find peace in my life and deal with my emotions that she knows we will be perfect again.


She had an affair. The affair started off as an "innocent friendship." She is hiding how much she texts and calls these "innocent friendships" and she leaves you alone at home to have drinks with the "innocent friendships". That is NOT an innocent friendship! This is what I'm trying to tell you. If it were innocent she would include you--you would be welcome at these happy hours and you could drop in at work any time and find her doing things that are not compromising nor even approaching the appearance of evil. So yeah, it bristles my hide because she's continuing her unfaithful ways and then saying "How dare you not trust me!"


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## ozarksguy

affaircare... thank you for your advice and thoughts. what you are saying makes perfect sense. just to be clear, she had an EA, and not a PA to my knowledge. doesn't make it any easier, and in fact from everything i've read EA's are almost more damaging than PA's. at least i think it wasn't a PA.

she actually told me she didn't want me to come to happy hour last week, during my dinner break from work, because she didn't want me to act weird or distant because she was out having fun with co-workers. that hurt me, but she didn't seem to bothered by it. honestly she seems extremely bothered at me checking up on her. her stance is... "i've told you everything, i'm not doing anything wrong, and i don't want you to obsess over things that are not harmful". my wife is a very independant person, and can be very stuborn when she sets her heels in.

since i don't have access to all the emails, phone records, etc... it's hard to just take her at her word. do i wish i could trust her? absolutely. is there any trust in our relationship right now? absolutely not. before this happened, i never would have dreamed that my wife would have an EA. now, the fear of another one is what consumes me. 

and you're right in that i shouldn't let her put the blame back on me. i'm trying like hell to keep the peace though that i find MYSELF apologizing a lot more than she does. now granted, she did apologize a LOT when i found out, and still says she's sorry for any hurt she caused in my life. i just don't think she understands how continued secrecy is harmful. she doesn't see it as being secret... she says she's an adult and going to not be treated like a prisoner or someone who is owned... those are her words.


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## Affaircare

Right and when she was having her affair, did she walk up to you and tell you the truth? "Hi honey. I paid the water bill, I'm having an affair with Bob, and oh yeah can you get bread on the way home?" Or did she act all secretive, say it was innocent, and tell you they were "just friends" and in other ways try to throw you off track? 

Hey I've been a disloyal spouse! I know that it can be distasteful to have my spouse checking up on you as if you didn't deserve trust. But guess what? I hadn't EARNED it and the way to earn it was to behave and let him see for his own self that my affection was only for him. That means he can look at my PC or phone, go through my purse, come to my work any darn time he wants to! And the more often he does that and finds that there's no IM logs on my PC, I don't text anyone else, my purse has my calendar in it, and I'm at work where I'm supposed to be--doing what I'm supposed to be doing--with whom I'm supposed to be with...the more the trust grows and the less he does it! Now if I was open, he was checking, all was clear for a good long while, and he was STILL distrusting...then it might be reasonable to say he's the one with the issue. But that is NOT the case with you. Hear that? That is NOT the situation you are in, and that is how she's trying to make it seem! 

If it were me, to be honest, I'd do some investigating. Shoot, to be honest if it were me I'd say this:

_"I've decided that I am only going to accept a partner in my life who actually IS a partner with me, and only me. I will no longer accept secretive, dishonest, untrustworthy treatment in my life so I'm going to ask you for complete openness, honest and access to everything in your life and offer you the same in mine. I will not ask of you what I'm not willing to give, and from my side you are free to verify my honesty and loyalty any time. If you're willing to allow me to do the same, we are cool and I'd consider that a step in building trust and emotional intimacy. If you are not willing to allow me to do the same, then I am no longer willing to have a partner in my life who hides their true self from me and then tries to twist it to say I'm the one with trust issues. When you are willing to treat me in a way that builds trust let me know. You are completely free to decide for yourself how you will behave and whether you will treat me with openness and deep intimacy, but just so you know, if you do decide to continue to treat me with secretive, dishonest, untrustworthy behavior, I will then decide for myself which choices I choose to make. I'm just not willing to be locked out of your life anymore and then blamed as if I'm the one with the issue."_

Then again, I am kind of stubborn that way and refuse to carry responsibility that isn't mine.


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## turnera

That is why, when you expose and confront a wayward, you are supposed to set RULES for how you would accept them back. Those RULES include: 

you give me access to your phone/computer/texts any time I ask for it, for a reasonable time of my choosing

you NEVER go anywhere where you are around other men unless I specifically know about it beforehand and agree with it

you NEVER shut me out of your activities

you remain open to discussing the affair any time I need to and you don't LIE

In return for this, I promise to not drag this out forever, I will move on after I've been able to digest what happened, and I won't hold it over your head forever

Not to say that you can't sit down and have another pow-wow and reach a new agreement. Do this right the next time.

Think of it this way: Are you SO desperate to see her every day that you are willing to give in and become her doormat, for the rest of your life, just so she won't leave?

Is that the life you have to have? Are you so sure of that? What would you do if she were dead? You'd survive. 

The wife you used to have is dead. Now...you need to renegotiate.


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## ozarksguy

affaircare and turnera... you're both right... i think if i confront her in this manner she's going to leave me because she's tired of fighting and she's tired of talking about what she calls the past. 

this week, after she caught me looking through her phone, she changed the passcode again, and has asked me to give her space. she asked me to go away this weekend and have some fun on my own. she says she's going away by herself next weekend to go shopping. of course, the first thing i wondered about HER weekend was... who is she meeting? she may be meeting nobody, but that's just how i think. she says she wants space to breathe, and she wants me to have some space to have some fun and focus on myself... thoughts on the space thing??


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## questions

I would just ask one question..
"Do I want to be right or happy?"
I wish all of you the best.


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## turnera

Thoughts? She has made plans to hook up, and she needs you out of the way.

meh

Seriously, dude, do you have SO little self esteem that you feel you deserve to be treated like this? That you can do no better?

fwiw, I have seen DOZENS of waywards move out when the betrayed confronts her/him and gives the 'rules' speech. Nearly every one of them comes home. Once they realize they don't have a leg to stand on, except for their pride.

Just because you think she'll leave doesn't mean your marriage is over. Time to grow a pair.


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## nice777guy

questions said:


> I would just ask one question..
> "Do I want to be right or happy?"


My therapist asks me this all the time. I don't get it. I want both.

I think her request for space is another gigantic nasty looking red flag. She probably wants space so she can make calls in private or possibly even meet up with her friend.

Its also possible that she truly doesn't know what she wants and thinks that a little time will help her sort through things.

But you can't control her and you can't stop her.

My opinion - you need to find a simple and straightforward way to tell her that you think this is a lousy idea - and then let it go.

If I were YOU - I'd go nowhere. THAT is something YOU can control. 

I think she's trying to get you out of the house for the same reasons she wants to leave. And she can use the fact that you took time away to justify her own little trip. "How can you tell me that I can't go if you did the same thing yourself?"

I don't think giving my wife space has hurt, but only time will tell. It might have helped. It helped me to let go a bit. It helped me to stop obsessing over every comment, every phone call, etc.


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## Mike188

This sounds kind of like my situation. Tunera has regularly offered advice but I don't think Affaircare has (hint). It's hard to not think about it and not worry when some things have woried you in the past and your wife still has to keep doing stipid crap that keeps old wounds open. I asked my wife what can I do to try to move on and get this suspicion out of my system. She says, sympathetically, that she doesn't know but will do whatever she can to help me and then will do omething stupid like trying to get an old boyfriend to say how hot she is or going away on a business trip and then texting a new male friend she made there 80 times a day. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/10160-should-i-worried-wifes-co-workers.html


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## Affaircare

ozarksguy said:


> affaircare and turnera... you're both right... i think if i confront her in this manner she's going to leave me because she's tired of fighting and she's tired of talking about what she calls the past.
> 
> this week, after she caught me looking through her phone, she changed the passcode again, and has asked me to give her space. she asked me to go away this weekend and have some fun on my own. she says she's going away by herself next weekend to go shopping. of course, the first thing i wondered about HER weekend was... who is she meeting? she may be meeting nobody, but that's just how i think. she says she wants space to breathe, and she wants me to have some space to have some fun and focus on myself... thoughts on the space thing??


#1 [threadjack] Hi Mike188 (wave). Hint acknowledged [/threadjack]

Okay ozarkguy...are you serious? Pffffffffffffffft  You're kidding me right? She is hooking up on her weekend!!! Now, she may very well do some shopping (to cover her tracks) and she may very well have some personal "downtime" but I will bet you MONEY that she will be meeting up with whoever her current loverboy is right now on that weekend. 

The way she is behaving is not the behavior of someone who has truly put it "in the past"!!! Do you see how I act? My Dear Hubby (Tanelornpete) is 100% free to always access any of my email accounts, my facebook, come on my PC, etc. Know why? Because I know for a FACT he won't find anything to cause him to even worry. My PC monitor FACES HIM so he sees what I do all day! Know why? I want him to feel 100% safe and know all my affection and loyalty is only for him, and it has been a long time now since my EA...but this openness and not hiding things from him is for life! Do you see showtime's wife? Okay she is not perfect I get that...but she is acting like someone who has truly put it "in the past." They stumble and make mistakes here and there, but she let's him see what she's doing and realizes that partially it is HER ACTIONS that made him insecure and thus part of the cost of her poor choice is to now help him get through that by reassuring him. 

Soooooo...here's my question to you. You say _"...she's going to leave me because she's tired of fighting and she's tired of talking about what she calls the past."_ Is it okay with you to be with a person who hurts you, disrespects you, is dishonest to you, then blames you for their actions and treats you like you don't matter--IN THE PRESENT? Is she really with YOU now? Or is she using you...maybe for finances, a place to live or childcare...while she goes out and lives the single life? Are you going to continue to allow yourself to be used so she can continue living the single life? 

This is not "in the past" cousin. This is happening now, currently, in the present. She is planning to hook up with someone IN THE FUTURE. She does not include you in her life or openly share herself with you on an emotionally intimate level. She does not make plans with you, does not make plans to heal the relationship between you two, and does not demonstrate with her actions that her affections and loyalty are for you and you alone--in the present. SOOOOOOOO...when she is acting like that IN THE PRESENT (making plans with you, making plans to heal the relationship between you two, and demonstraing with her actions that her affections and loyalty are for you and you alone), then she is with you. Until you see actions like that, she is already not with you. Personally, I would advise AGAIN that you actually gather evidence, and this time ask a buddy to follow next weekend -- record where she goes, who she meets and get some digital photos.


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## kenmoore14217

Hey “ozarksguy” thank God for “affaircare” and “tunera” and their advise. I was re-reading your thread this morning before going to work and I was just about screaming into my computer screen. You have to be assertive, you have to be assertive and oh, by the way, YOU HAVE TO BE ASSERTIVE!!!!

You don’t go anywhere by yourself, she doesn’t go anywhere by herself, at least where overnights are concerned. Come on man, if she decides to book after you asked/told her not to then the next call you make should be to a locksmith. Adios darling!


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## tjohnson

As others have said at nausium:

1) She will never admit to the physical part of the relationship with OM. Period, end of story don't ask her again. Her answer will not change. I am tired of reading about it so I can understand her position. 
In fairness though

2) It is her actions that have led you to these suspicions. 

3) I am not convinced that there is still not another rooster in the hen house. As i said before you should be stashing cash away for a P.I or a lawyer. She could be sleeping with your whole neighborhood but, without proof she is getting the house, the kids if it comes to that. 

4) Her wanting "space" is to see what life is like without you or with someone else. 

5) I don't think any married person should have a pasword on their phone, particularly someone who has done what she has. That should be a deal breaker. 

Have you been to counseling? Not sure if you mentioned this. They might be able to put things into perspective. 

If she insists on spending time apart, I would not do so without a some spying in place. There is alot of technology out there (to track her car...) 

This may be out in left feild but you mentioned that she "tried to seduce you in the bathroom" on vacation. Since your kids were on vacation with you mabe that was the only chance you may have had. Did you "fu#$ her as she wanted? Are you doing that enough. Perhaps this is uncharicteristic but, she is still saying it. Is there a chance that you could be doing more of that. That is no excuse for infidelity but, clearly "needing space" means she needs time away to think. That is not a sign of marital bliss.

Besides this forum you should be getting legal advise and counseling.


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## Affaircare

Just one note of caution--different states have different laws on electronic surveillance and it is important to gather evidence within legal means. Thus I would refer you to this site: Electronic Surveillance Laws Please pick your state and look up things like how many parties need to consent, whether your state only has laws on phone lines or do they also include photo/video, do they include cell phones, and what's the skinny on electronic or computer? 

For example, my state I can not wiretap the telephone, there are laws about secretly taking photo/video and about electronics/computers, there is no mention of cell phones, and one party needs to consent to a recorded conversation. So a voice activated recorder in the car would not be legal in my state unless I was recording me and someone and I knew it was recording. Make sense? Don't be illegal but do your best to get info--and there is never a law about having a buddy follow her and just watch.


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## cb45

what happened bout that trip u were to spy?

no mention anymore, why?



peace------------------------------------------cb45


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## ozarksguy

here's where we are today....

my wife is extremely frustrated with me. says she feels smothered and manipulated and controlled. says she's thought about what would happen if we did divorce, although she says that's not what she wants.

her stance is... yes she had an EA... she admits that. she says it's over and has been for some time and she's doing nothing wrong. her stance is also that she wants to have friends in her life and not have me overreact or check-up on her. she understands i don't trust her... and now she says she doesn't trust me either because of all my attempts to watch over her...(and yes i know that is only because of how the EA made me feel and react).

i feel like she's just ready to quit... and it's a terrible feeling...


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## turnera

Let her quit. Sorry, but if her independence is more important than YOUR feelings, she doesn't love you.

Tell her you'll help her pack her bags. I bet she changes her tune real fast.


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## nice777guy

When I was at this point, I continued to push - continued to dig for evidence, demand to know where she was at all times, called way too much, etc., etc.

After a while, I started to notice that the more I left her alone, the better things got. First of all - I needed to stop obsessing for my own sanity. I was driving both of us crazy. Second - I think she would get spooked a bit when I would leave her alone. 

Part of the fantasy is that they can play for a little while, but you'll still be waiting if they decide that they want to come back. Its taken a while, but I have seen some improvements as my wife's began to realize that I actually may not want her back.

Her six month lease is up at the end of May - we made a joint decision to extend it for at least one more month. She was arguing with me one day recently about why she WOULDN'T come home - until it dawned on her that I wasn't asking her to come home.

My wife has called crying twice in the last week, saying that she wants to move back - and I've answered her by talking about MY needs and what I feel needs to happen before we get back together.


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## Deejo

Lots of folks have talked about this, I'm going to try and sum it up.

Right now, she has all of the power. All of it. She has it because you have given it up.

You are afraid. You are sad. You are heartbroken. You are unsure ... of just about everything surrounding your relationship as a result of the betrayal.

She is none of these things. She is aggravated - by you. She doesn't feel bad for you. She doesn't want to make things better for you, and Turnera is right - at this point in time she is certainly not _in love_ with you.

You simply cannot keep chasing, questioning, hoping, begging, on and on. I'm not saying these things to make you feel like crap, I'm saying them because often the betrayed follows a script too - most of us did. And it doesn't work.

Like NiceGuy said, if you keep up this hyper-vigilance and continually expecting that you can make her love you if you stay on top of her every move is fundamentally flawed, and very unhealthy.

You need to define YOUR boundaries. And you need to stick to them. Seriously Ozarks, right now, you need to focus on getting your own feet firmly back on the ground and not make it all about her. As is obviously the case, you _don't_ have any control over what she does or how she feels at this point.

If she insists that she wants complete autonomy and have to explain none of it to you, then you need to know what your response to that is. It can't be a kneejerk reaction of anger, tears, or whatever. You need to define what you will, can, or want to tolerate.

The day you start to feel better will be the day you choose to stop allowing all of this to simply _happen_ to you, and instead take some control and responsibility.

Will it save your marriage? Maybe, maybe not. But you will start to regain your self-respect, and realize that she can only continue to harm you, for as long as you let her.


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## ozarksguy

nice guy and deejo... you're both SO right. i truly appreciate your feedback... it makes perfect sense to me.

does she want to leave me? no. but does she have ALL the power right now? ABSOLUTELY. i spent some time with a very dear friend this weekend who sort of gave me the same advice of niceguy. he said... leave her alone for awhile. make her want to talk to you. honestly, i know she's not cheating on me. but clearly she does want some autonomy. so i'm going to give that to her. but deejo... i will start thinking about my own boundries and what i need from the relationship too. if at the end of the day, her needs and mine don't mesh... well then i guess we'll have our answer.


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## turnera

Just remember, autonomy with a cheater is NOT the same thing as giving them free reign to do whatever they want. They LOST that right when they cheated.

If you can't deal with that one simple truth, then she will continue to cheat on you over and over and over...because she'll have lost all respect for you.


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## nice777guy

ozarksguy said:


> does she want to leave me? no. but does she have ALL the power right now? ABSOLUTELY. i spent some time with a very dear friend this weekend who sort of gave me the same advice of niceguy. he said... leave her alone for awhile. make her want to talk to you. honestly, i know she's not cheating on me. but clearly she does want some autonomy. so i'm going to give that to her. but deejo... i will start thinking about my own boundries and what i need from the relationship too. if at the end of the day, her needs and mine don't mesh... well then i guess we'll have our answer.


The honest truth is that she very well may want to leave you, so you have to take this very seriously.

She does not, however, have all the power. You can choose how you react to things. You can choose to not ask her questions about everything she does. You can choose to see a lawyer. You can choose to change where you deposit your paycheck. You can choose to be patient or you can choose to force the issue now by giving her ultimatums.

When I was in your shoes my main thought was that I wanted to SAVE MY MARRIAGE. Now - I want to BE HAPPY. I "hope" I am able to do both, but I'm now open to the possibility that happiness can exist without her in my life.

This isn't a sprint. Try to relax. And KEEP YOUR EYES OPEN. Another "benefit" of backing off is that she'll relax. If she IS doing something she shouldn't, you'll start to figure it out.


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## ozarksguy

GREAT points niceguy... i've realized tonight that her wanting to leave is a possibility. i also realize that if she has already made up her mind, she may want ME to make that decision so then it's MY fault and she can somehow use that against me. i also had a friend tell me whatever i do, DON'T move out because she can claim that i abandoned her.

this weekend she's going away by herself. she's already told me that she plans to shop and see some family. do i think there's something sinister in the works? i don't know. but i can't worry about that right now. i've spent TOO long trying to control this situation. i'm tired, and sick to my stomach over the whole thing. and i'm not going to let her walk all over me. i'll give her a little space... but i'm not going to sit around waiting until SHE decides what SHE wants. i realize it's about what "I" want too.


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## Affaircare

One thing to be careful of, is to not engage in a power-struggle over your wants vs. her wants. In this instance, you can control YOU and you can change YOU--and you can control the things you contribute and to whom and when. For example, if you earn the money and own the car and pay the bills, you can also decide where the money is deposited for the safety of the "family" obligations, where the car goes to be sure it is for the "family" and not for the affair, and which bills are paid so that no cell phone you pay for is used for the affair...and no internet you pay for is used to cheat on you. Make sense? 

If she chooses to cheat--she is absolutely free to do so, but on her own dime. She can cheat in the house she rents--in the bed she has bought...not in your bed. She can be unfaithful using her own money, not your check which goes to pay for the family obligations and caring for the children. She can see her lover in the car he buys for her. She can choose adultery on the phone she buys or use the internet she pays for--YOUR phone and YOUR internet pays for the children to have a game or for you to have contact with family and relatives...good stuff. 

Don't turn this into a tug of war. Nope just more like this: "I realize I can't control you or stop you. You're free. But I'm also free to make choices based on my boundaries and what I want for my family and my children."


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## kenmoore14217

you've spoken to the other man's wife via email before. Find out if he's going away this weekend! That should give you some idea of his intentions.


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## nice777guy

kenmoore14217 said:


> you've spoken to the other man's wife via email before. Find out if he's going away this weekend! That should give you some idea of his intentions.


As much as I've encouraged you to back off, this sounds like a really good idea. If she's being honest and isn't in touch with him, she likely won't hear that you were asking. If she's being dishonest and he is going away too, you really shouldn't care much what she thinks. Just be prepared for the "I can't help it - its just a coincidence" argument. And by be prepared I mean don't take the bait. Tell her you don't believe her and walk away from the conversation - don't try to pull the truth out of her.


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## turnera

I agree. Excellent idea.


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## ozarksguy

actually... the om's wife isn't responding to my emails anymore... not sure why, but it is what it is...


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## CH

I'll give a little from a cheaters perspective.

I was caught and to win back my wife took a long time and we were very close to calling it quits. Before she could truly forgive (but not forget, women NEVER FORGET), I had to be an open book, no secrets and everything in the open. There was no more my space at that point.

With your wife changing the PC on her phone and asking for me time is a huge red flag. Everytime when I was cheating and the wife asked, the 1st thing to come out of my mouth was, "I just need some alone time to think things through." Which meant that bought me a couple of weeks or at the most a month to screw around some more and search my feelings while literally screwing the OW from heaven to hell and back.

Once things fell apart, wife confronted the OW, it was only then that I was finally faced with the facts that I was caught and went crawling back to the wife and begged for forgiveness. But the only way she would take me back was for me to hide nothing at all and she had access to everything, NO QUESTIONS ASKED.

15 years later, she still brings it up once in a blue moon when we have an argument. The other spouse NEVER forgets, but the cheaters who truly turn around will always remember this fact and live with it also.

CHEATERS WILL LIE TO THE DEATH THAT NOTHING HAPPENED UNLESS CAUGHT RED HANDED. I lied right to the end that there was no PA until the wife and OW met to trade notes.

We've been happily married these past 15 years and have 3 beautiful daughters. The road here wasn't easy and I'm still paying for it 15 years later. But I couldn't love my wife more and have devoted myself soley to her and my kids and receive the same back from her, I hope :rofl:


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## turnera

cheatinghubby, thank you for sharing that. It is very helpful. I'm glad you found your right path to happiness.


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## MEM2020

Given her history there is zero benefit from speaking to her. HOWEVER it is completely legit to install a GPS device on her car and see where she is going. If after 30 days you see nothing suspicious, remove the GPS and get on with your life. 

I absolutely think she has given you reasonable cause. If my wife refused to break off communication with a guy who clearly wanted an affair - well I would make her choose - him or me. But it is ok if you don't want to do that. I DO think you need proof - real - solid proof - before you bring this up with her again otherwise you are just making bad feelings for nothing. 




ozarksguy said:


> GREAT points niceguy... i've realized tonight that her wanting to leave is a possibility. i also realize that if she has already made up her mind, she may want ME to make that decision so then it's MY fault and she can somehow use that against me. i also had a friend tell me whatever i do, DON'T move out because she can claim that i abandoned her.
> 
> this weekend she's going away by herself. she's already told me that she plans to shop and see some family. do i think there's something sinister in the works? i don't know. but i can't worry about that right now. i've spent TOO long trying to control this situation. i'm tired, and sick to my stomach over the whole thing. and i'm not going to let her walk all over me. i'll give her a little space... but i'm not going to sit around waiting until SHE decides what SHE wants. i realize it's about what "I" want too.


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## ozarksguy

an update...

so my wife goes to a work meeting, then happy hour with friends last night. she comes home very tipsy at 11:30. when changing her clothes, i noticed that she was wearing different underwear than the ones she left in during the morning. apparently she went home in the afternoon to see our son, and changed. she changed into a sexy white thong... hmmm....

also, she paid her bar bill at 9:00... and claims she just sat around with friends until 11:00 then drove home. i'm going to check out that story tonight with the waitres... to see what time she really left and who she was there with...

i confronted her about the panty change (the rest of her wardrobe stayed the same) and she blew up at me. this might be too much info... but she said she had to change in the afternoon because it was "that time of the month". sadly, i checked the morning panties and there was nothing to suggest she needed to change because of "that time of the month". so clearly, she put on a thong for another reason. and ladies chime in here... do you honestly wear thongs during "that time of the month"... 

after our morning confrontation, my wife has asked me to move out. i'm NOT moving out, period. i've told her as calmly as possible that if she wants "space" she's free to leave our home. now she's threatening to leave and take the kids too. i've told her that it's my home and the kids home, and that we are not going anywhere but if she feels the need to leave, i'll support her.

honestly, i'm pretty sure we're headed for a divorce. i think she's cheating with somebody, but is too chicken **** to be honest with me and just tell me her true feelings. it's much easier to blame me for all our problems... and get mad when i question her. obviously she knows i'm on to her... and the panty change clearly indicates something is up...


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## turnera

> and the panty change clearly indicates something is up...


Ya think?!

Just kick the lying cheating witch out of your house, ozark. 

Good grief!

She's lying in bed with OM and they are LAUGHING at you.


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## turnera

Do you realize how pathetic you sound?

I'm sorry, but you make me want to punch something.

For YOU.

Because you're too chicken to do it yourself.


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## turnera

btw, I sure hope you have put a stop on all your bank accounts, because you are one step away from having all your savings cleaned out. And you need to call your family, her family, and everyone else you know that she has threatened to take the children away from you. If SHE makes the call first, she will tell everyone you're abusive and she's afraid for their safety. And then you get SQUAT.

Come on, ozark. Time to grow a pair.


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## nice777guy

I would think you might need a bit more proof before exposing this to anyone. If you start calling people to say that your wife changed her underwear and then went to happy hour, most people would look at you weird and tell you to relax. 

I get it - but I've read your whole story and done a lot of reading about how to spot a cheater in the last year.

Whatever you do (sounds like you know this) DON'T LEAVE YOUR HOUSE.

I'm not sure how to handle the kids. If she starts making plans to leave and sounds like she plans to take them along, I'd be calling a lawyer - although I'm sure there are people here who know a lot more about how to handle that part than me.


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## nice777guy

And also - just my opinion - unless you are ready to end it, don't assume that its all over. Divorce is not the only possible outcome.

There's a lot of smoke here, so there's probably a fire.

Sounds like she has bad intentions, but maybe she hasn't acted on them yet. Its possible she went to happy hour with high hopes, and nothing happened. Or maybe they "just" kissed. Still lousy - but not necessarily divorce-worthy - thats up to you.

I've always believed every case is different, but if you haven't done so, read "showtime's" thread in the Infidelity section. He followed a lot of good advice from AC, Pete, Turnera and others and was able to quickly turn things around and save his marriage.


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## turnera

I'd be hiring a PI.


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## withinbrandy

I just spent a whole two hours reading this whole forum and i have to say yes it sounds like she has lost interest in you, but is scared to leave because she doesnt know what will happen. Like she might be wondering is the grass really greener on teh other side. After being married so long she has gotten into the same routine and she wants to have fun again. Im sorry your going threw this cause Im sure it isnt a good feeling. You have pointed out so many things that says CHEATING...

I think I know more about this from your wife side then I really would like to tell.


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## Mrs. B

Gosh, I feal for you brother. I've read your whole story, and it does seem like she's looking for something outside of your marraige. My husband works for a GPS tracking device company. I'd get one of thoes. There are trackers that are compleatly hidden in the car, and you can track it on your computer or cell phone with 3 second updates. You can even get allerts to movement in the car without the car running. They're not too expensive, mabey $100-200.


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## Affaircare

cheatinghubby said:


> ... CHEATERS WILL LIE TO THE DEATH THAT NOTHING HAPPENED UNLESS CAUGHT RED HANDED. I lied right to the end that there was no PA until the wife and OW met to trade notes...


:iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: 

As you know my ozark cousin (giggle), I specialize in this area and have a LOT of experience--a little is personal but decades of working with people. I can testify that I got the bill for Mr. and Mrs. Ex-Affaircare the weekend my exH took his Whistress to a certain VERY fancy hotel that we had never been to. We worked at that hotel on some computer security stuff, and I was able to get security tape of him and her ENTERING the hotel together that night and leaving together in the morning. Know what his response was to that? 

"How did you do that?" 
Me (puzzled): "Do what?"
Him: "Doctor the tape to make it look like I was there."
:rofl: :lol: :rofl: :lol: No kidding!! RED HANDED and he still tried to squirm out with a lie!! (I can laugh about it now.)

I've also known (and worked with) many, many people literally have caught their spouse red-handed--and yes I mean WALK IN ON THEM DURING THE ACT. Do they admit it? NO!  To the last one they all say, "It's not what it looks like" as they put on their clothing! 

So just so you know I agree cheatinghubby here. You are not going to "get the truth" from your wife, and really the delusional one is you for expecting someone who's actively unfaithful to tell the truth. It just is NOT going to happen! That's very disappointing but it's okay. You can proceed under the assumption she will not speak the truth and do everything she can to distract you and throw up smoke and mirrors. 

Regarding the thong: not a smoking gun but again, pretty incriminating. It is EXTREMELY rare to come home during the day to change, and if it were due to that issue there would be evidence such as what you looked for. Also from a female point of view, thong during the monthly cycle = NO! I don't like them that much normally but during that time of the month...NEVAH! 

Finally, I like where you're going with verifying with the waitress. That is just plain checking up on the facts--it will either confirm or refute what time she left and with whom. The waitress may not remember her--but then again if so it may be helpful. The thing is that looking for something concrete EITHER WAY is good, and at this point I think your concerns are legitimate. If it had been a while and her behavior was matching what she said, if she wasn't hiding things and wanting time to sneak off by herself...I would say maybe you are paranoid. But her behavior is NOT appropriate and it does not look good (even if it is). She can choose to be open and honest and that is not what she's choosing. 

Sooooo..stay the course. Keep looking for some evidence (you're not nuts). And when you find it, print it, copy it, and put it somewhere not in the house. You stay in the home and the kids stay in the home in their own beds. If she wants to have an affair and carry on, SHE can move out and live with loverboy.


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## ozarksguy

affaircare... thanks.... i'll let you know later tonight what i find at the restaurant... i'm pretty sure they're going to remember her... i have the name of the waitress and everything. just seems odd to me that she paid a bill at 9:00 then didn't leave until 11:15. her level of intoxication when she got home at 11:30 doesn't support the story that someone only had two martini's...


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## ozarksguy

the waitress remembered her group. it was my wife and two other girls. one guy was there, but left. and another guy showed up. my wife told me it was just "the girls" and did not tell me any men were in attendance. this may be her defense mechanism thinking i would overreact. the waitress said my wife paid her tab, but then stayed because the man that showed up bought all the girls a couple of rounds. she said they stayed pretty late, supporting the story that she left at 11:00 and got home at 11:30...

i think i overreacted, but the panty thing still seems questionable to me. clearly my wife was where she claimed to be, but did lie about who was in attendance... what gives anymore...


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## nice777guy

I don't think you overreacted. Something is definitely not right.


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## MEM2020

Attach the GPS and stop raising this with her until/unless you have absolute proof. 



ozarksguy said:


> the waitress remembered her group. it was my wife and two other girls. one guy was there, but left. and another guy showed up. my wife told me it was just "the girls" and did not tell me any men were in attendance. this may be her defense mechanism thinking i would overreact. the waitress said my wife paid her tab, but then stayed because the man that showed up bought all the girls a couple of rounds. she said they stayed pretty late, supporting the story that she left at 11:00 and got home at 11:30...
> 
> i think i overreacted, but the panty thing still seems questionable to me. clearly my wife was where she claimed to be, but did lie about who was in attendance... what gives anymore...


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## kenmoore14217

Weekends over Ozarksguy.........any updates?


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## ozarksguy

here's the final chapter...

my wife went MIA this weekend... and i found her at a co-workers apartment on saturday. ironically, it wasn't the guy from the EA that started this whole mess.

we spent an hour fighting in that parking lot... she accused me of tracking her, controlling her, being CRAZY and psychotic. she went back in the apartment.... then came home a couple of hours later. she left again to go out of town overnight... checked into a hotel, but then came home because she said she feared i would leave the children with a sitter and come try to find her.

she says i've pushed her beyond the limits... and in fact we are filling for divorce. she says she loves me but isn't in love with me and just wants to move on with her life and focus on our children. i'm resigned to this fact... although i'm NOT going to take all the blame for the breakdown in our marriage. if she had not given me a reason to "track" her and be "suspicious" then i wouldn't have become that person.

and i've learned a lot on this board about the behaviors of people who cheat... and she's exhibiting them all... especially by placing blame on me. honestly, i'm done. at this point, i'm leaving our home... we've come to agreements on custody and some of the assets and it's just over.

thanks to everyone who tried to help... to all those who kept saying trust your gut... thanks! you were right...


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## the2charlies

jesus, that sucks. I was rooting for you to be wrong, since your situation is freaking identical to mine, I just feel like I'm maybe three weeks behind you. good luck.


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## turnera

I'm so sorry.


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## ozarksguy

honestly at this point i'm not in mourning for my wife... it's my kids that i'm just heartsick over...

i will say i think it will be hard to ever trust anyone in my life ever again. not trying to be negative... but it's just how i feel.


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## turnera

Are you sure you don't want to strive for more custody? To protect the kids from her (probably) long line of 'suitors' once she's free?


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## CH

Sorry it didn't work out for you. Focus on your kids and yourself also. Make sure you do things for you and not just all for the kids at this point. But use your kids as a starting point on your new life ahead of you.

If she ever tries to come back after getting kicked to the curb by the OM, just slam the door in her face and move on.


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## ozarksguy

we have agreed to 50/50 joint custody. they will live with her more than me, and that's mainly because i work nights. we're also putting in the language of the divorce that neither one of us will have sleepovers in the presence of the children. when they're with me, it's her time to do what she wants.


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## kenmoore14217

Sorry Ozarksguy, always sucks when it ends this way. But at least your days of "maybe" are over. That's probably all you ever wanted to know anyway, YES or NO. Now you can move on.


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## nice777guy

so sorry man...


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## cb45

sorry ozark   

was hoping we'd be wrong.
dont know if u r truly over mourning period but when u r indeed over
it, u'll get an exhilarating/hopeful feeling when u hear one or both songs: 
"i can see clearly now the rain is gone" & "the sun'll come out tomorrow, 
bet yer bottom $ that tomorrow.........." 

 :smthumbup:  :smthumbup:

i know i'm premature but, can i suggest something?
(in case the good Lord comes for me tomorrow)

study where u may have gone wrong, what personality type
u r, and which type best suits your type, should u trust again.

that way u wont hopefully repeat yer mistake(s).
for that would be the worst feeling in my book, to be
a doo-doo bird and repeat, repeat, repeat. like my bro
has 4x now. 

peace on ya w/ prayers always------------------cb45


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## Deejo

Nobody here takes joy in hearing, "you guys were right all along."

I'm glad you have your truth. I'm sorry for what that truth turned out to be.

You will trust again. You will love again. You will move through this crushing feeling. You will simply temper and be wiser about how you choose to dispense both.


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## flatterpuss

OzArks Guy - your wife is clearly getting some needs met from this other man. 

Firstly, you have to make a decision. Are you going to do what it takes to make it work with her, or are you irreparably hurt?

- to fix this, you'll need to talk to her but in a DIFFERENT way than what you have been. Clearly, the way you have been confronting her about it is not working.

Try another approach, until something works. And it doesn't matter what you ask her, it's obvious something is going on. She may not have cheated on you per se, but she's definitely got feelings for this other guy.

To fix this, you're going to have to start working out what her needs are, how she wants to be filled, and fulfill her needs regardless of whether your needs are being met or not - for 90 days, and see how it goes.

Ideally, she would commit to this too - but perhaps it's not going to happen at this stage?

Usually, if you fulfill all your partner's needs unqualified, they become your biggest fan!


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## ozarksguy

flatterpuss... i am hurt and damaged... but i would love to do what you suggest more than anything in the world. but my wife says we are beyond repair at this point. last night she broke down to me... saying she feels she can't trust anybody or their intentions toward her. she said she doesn't want to be the girl that men prey on and be vulnerable. she said i smothered her to a point that she feels almost battered. i would love to fix things... because though there has been MUCH hurt from both sides... i still love her deeply. i'm moving out on friday and she seems like she's ready to move on. every now and then, like last night, i feel like she wants to stay with me. but today we're back to talking about wrapping up all the loose ends. we haven't filed yet... we'd planned to today. but she said we should tackle one thing at a time and we'll handle the legal stuff next week. i think she was talking about me moving out and getting that angle handled. but of course part of me thought...maybe she's stalling because she just wants us to live apart for awhile and see what happens. that's probably wishful thinking on my part...


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## tjohnson

I cannot imagine the pain you are in. I only wish that I could hope that i would be givne the strenghth to act rationally and in the best intest of me and my family. I pray for you and your family. 

Yes you are being wishful. I have never been divorced so i am not 
biased but, a realist. 

To best help yourself please, please realise. She is leaving you!!!

1) Your wife says she wants a divorce 
2) She cares so little about you and your feelings that she took a trail run with another man, stayed at his appartment
3) She said she is not in love with you. 
4) She said "things are beyond repair

That is 4 strikes!!!!

She said/did those things for a reason. She wanted to let you know that it was over so you will get the message and leave. Nobody says "they are not in Love with you" anymore unless they mean it because they know this will make your relationship irreperable. Please recognize this as a fact! Be mad about the fact that your wife is doing this and don't let her screw you!!! Also, why is it YOU that should move out??? She is the one that wants out. 

Do yourself a favor and create a new post that says "wife wants a divorce" in the divorce section or somewhere else as people who have may respond or have responded in the past no longer responding. give a brief history and again let them give you more advise. 


Yes she is conflicted that she is doing this to you and your children but, don't read this as not having clear intentions. She made up her mind before she decided not to come home and to say what she did. Again, face the facts. 

Don't think for a second that having you move out first may not give her leverage in the divorce proceedings. 

You failed to follow this advise before so please listen this time. She says she is ok with joint custody, and ammicable split now but, after you move out and you are sitting accross the table with lawyers present i guarantee you will be seeing a person who is only concerned about themselves (after all she has been behaving that way for months). When she is fighting for the fiinancial future for her and her children (and after a lawyer convinces her that she is entitled to it, Don't forget lawyers are paid by the hour they want a fight not dissing lawyers but, they have bills too.. this is assuming she has not already_ She will want the house....

You may be so hurt that you just want to "do the right thing" so you can move on. A court may just view your moving out as some sort of amandonment leaving you with nothing. I GUARANTEE that your wife has consulted an attorney otherwise she would have moved out. She is agreeing to 50/50 now but, she is the mother, she will likely get the house and the majority of the custody and it will all be on her terms. My friends father was cheating on his wife and he stayed in the house and refused to move out till the laywers did there thing because in many states moving out is considered abandonment. 

You will look back 2 years from now wondering how you could have been so foolish if you move out without finding out how this could impact you. 

If you have already contacted an attorney them please have me stop with my time consuming posts to get you to do this. 

If you fail to take my advise make yourself a note after the court leaves you homeless with little controll over how/when you can see your children and warn every man who ever steps onto this site of the folleys of your ways and how again, you should have listened to what others have told you. 

Again, i pray for you and your family and hope you forgive me for what i feel is necessary toughness!


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## Deejo

Ozarks,

Keep some perspective when she is bearing her soul through tears, and correct me if I'm wrong. 

Her accusing you of being 'smothering' was a direct result of the infidelity that she was lying to you about. That isn't something to get too upset over.

You are both caught up in the fog of war. Nobody is going to see things very clearly right now.

I agree with tjohnson, I don't think you should move out. I did - and all it accomplished was facilitating the affair.
You don't _have_ to leave. You can point out that if she doesn't want to work things out, and wants to continue the relationship then by all means _she can move out._. 

If I'm reading you correctly - you are going to want to give in or concede just about anything to not rock the boat. Boat's already capsized.

What I'm trying to say is that this is not the time to simply roll over and assume that you have to go along with what _she_ wants. Right now, she really isn't capable of clearly defining what she wants, all of it is going to be colored by the affair - which isn't reality.

Remember that you still have the ability to make decisions for yourself. There is no hurry to move out and file - that is what she wants to have happen to avoid the pain and gravity of her choice.


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## Affaircare

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree: 

Deejo said it well. A lot of what your wife is saying now is so she can continue the affair unabated. I wouldn't put too much stock or trust in anything she says right now unless it is in writing and notarized--seriously.

I understand that YOU may be done, but that's no reason for you to give in to what she wants. Even if you are done, at least take the time to let the worst of the pain pass and then make decisions. Right now is a HORRIBLE time to make decisions.


----------



## cb45

u've been told these salient pts all along ur stay here,
big O. so why r u leaving?  no, forget why. change yer 
mind, get pissed or something. issed:

envision shes gonna bonk OM in yer bedrm, yer dinning rm 
table, yer stove....whatever/wherever! :bounce:

anything to get charged up, u digg? get fired up man. :FIREdevil: 

dont leave home w/ yer tail betwn yer legs ! :wtf:

uuugggghhhhh..... 

sorry, i'm losing my kewl.  ----------------------cb45


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## HappilyMarriedInPortland

Your wife may not be physically cheating on you, but it does sound like she is committing emotional infidelity. She is looking outside your marriage to fulfill an emotional need rather than having that need filled by you. The very fact that she's trying to keep it a secret shows that she knows it's wrong. Don't try to make her feel guilty about it. Although it's ok to express your disapproval of the relationship, trying to make someone feel guilty is manipulative and will result in pushing her farther away. Instead I will give you advice that worked for me - kill her with kindness. Buy her gifts (They don't have to be expensive, but they do have to show that you know her. For example, if she hates caramel, don't buy her caramel covered chocolate). Be so nice to her (with no expectation of anything in return) that she won't be able to stand herself for straying. I SWEAR this worked for me. 

Five months ago my husband asked for a divorce. He told all of his family that he was leaving me. He kept telling me that we needed to sit down and discuss how to split things up. For a couple of months he wouldn't say more than yes/no to me. Although there hasn't been any infidelity in my marriage, we had been to counseling 6 times in 7 years. We were in dire straights. I saved my marriage by participating in a program called "Marriage Fitness" by Mort Fertel. Mort had extremely insightful things to say about all types of infidelity. I'm positive it would help you if you're interested, just look it up online. Good luck.


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## s0medude

Jenna said:


> When my husband finally spoke to me without accusation and anger - calmly and rationally - and explained his concerns (he told me my behavior - the energy and liveliness - with this other man reminded him of how I used to be with him). His point was valid and I finally understood his fear. At that point, I gave him my passwords - email, Facebook, etc and kept my phone open for him to look at whenever he wanted. Nothing was hidden anymore. I told him about our phone calls. Over time, he saw there was nothing to worry about and he stopped checking. There is peace now and a couples' friendship is getting stronger.


I'm in a similar situation with my wife who I've had some fear of having either an EA or PA with an old childhood/HS friend, thanks to Facebook. She's always been secretive with her phone and web accounts (email, Facebook, etc), and she always logs out of them on our main computer. We both have netbooks, and I don't even know how to log into that so who knows what's going on with that thing.

If I were to ask her if I could view everything that's her (email, FB, etc), what would be the proper way to do it without getting the whole "you don't trust me" attitude? I have nothing to hide and would be happy for her to read my stuff. Marriage should be completely open and honest, with no reasons to hide anything from one another. At least that's how it *should* be.


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## MisterNiceGuy

Hey... I've been exactly where you were. I managed to pull it out of the fire. My wife had a short EA, but I confronted her on it. Told the OMW about it. We had a few rocky months, but I'll tell you it's not over until the papers are signed (even then it's still not over but that's another story). 

The main thrust is that you are in the FOG of the affair, or at least she is. You have to stay strong, believe in yourself and go your own course. Your children are the most important thing. Do not move out, she is the one that needs to leave. Get counseling, it helped me tremendously. Do not believe anything she says, for now. 

It's extremely tough and I wanted to run many times and just leave it all behind, but the thought of my children and breaking up the family made it intolerable. Get to the bottom of her affair. Do a strong 180 on her... Good luck...


----------



## JohnMcCloud

Gzz man, man up. Clearly she is starting down a path. Women never "intend" to cheat, it's always an accident. Starts with friendships that get to close and then "opps". At least men go out of their way to cheat. Anyway, you need to establish the boundaries and make sure she understands the consequences of crossing them. Then, when she does tell you that she "slipped", show her the door. The whole begging, pleading, "I love you...." will just make her want to wrap up in the arms of the friend she sees as new, exciting, adventurious, all those things you currently are not. Be confident, be assertive, establish the rules. If she still sees you as a stepping stool, may be better off apart.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MrK

Why do people dig out 6 month old threads, read the original post only, then respond as though it is still current? I just wasted 20 minutes of my life reviewing this thread (I remember it) hoping for an update, then getting rewarded with BS advice that hasn't been valid for over a year?

:scratchhead:

When will I learn?


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## 3rdmanout

turnera said:


> Find out this guy's contact numbers for his wife and siblings/parents. Sit down and call those people and tell them he is carrying on an affair with a married woman and you'd like their help talking to him to get him out of your marriage so you and your wife could repair it. At the same time, call your wife's parents, siblings, and best friends. Tell them what she is doing and ask them to help her get free of the addiction to the other man so you can address your marriage honestly.
> 
> Then sit back and wait. She will be furious with you - they ALL are when you threaten to take away their drug. Remain calm and say ONLY "I am fighting to save my marriage" and nothing more. If she tries to say YOU harmed her relationship with her family and friends by telling them, all you say is "I only told them the truth. Is there something wrong with them knowing about it?"
> 
> If they continue, then you call her boss and tell him his coworkers are carrying on an affair and are using workplace materials and time to do so. You may want to hint that his company may be liable for lawsuits, you'll be checking with your lawyer.
> 
> Above all, you have to get them to never see each other again. If it requires her quitting, even you moving, your marriage is worth it. Their affair will never end emotionally if they continue to see each other at work.


I know I'm late to this string. I've just found my way to this sight. Trying to force the end and fighting for your relationship is a noble fight, but it might now work. My g/f of 5+ years was deployed to Afghanistan for a year and started an affair with another married soldier while over there. They were under threat of dis-honorable discharge by Army leaders who had a good idea what was going on. It just became a bigger game with bigger consequences and a bigger thrill to be together. She insist they've never been alone together since returning, but she admits to still wanting to be with him and that she has tried to stop communicating with him which she managed for 2 months but couldn't do it any longer. Now I'm trying to figure out if we have a relationship worth saving for the sake of our 2 yr old daughter, or IF I just need to take our daughter and move on.
Good luck to all of those guys out there fighting the good fight and seriously trying to make their marriages/relationships work despite it all.


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## turnera

3rdmanout, please start your own thread so you can get the help you need.


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## bobdc

trust is hard to restore....


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## jimmy909

Good grief. No excuses. You should have been blunt right from the start...

This isn't on. If there is one more incident we are divorced.

How could you give her so many chances?


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## turnera

jimmy, check the dates of the threads you're posting on. This guy hasn't been back in 4 years.


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## bandit.45

turnera said:


> Find out this guy's contact numbers for his wife and siblings/parents. Sit down and call those people and tell them he is carrying on an affair with a married woman and you'd like their help talking to him to get him out of your marriage so you and your wife could repair it. At the same time, call your wife's parents, siblings, and best friends. Tell them what she is doing and ask them to help her get free of the addiction to the other man so you can address your marriage honestly.
> 
> Then sit back and wait. She will be furious with you - they ALL are when you threaten to take away their drug. Remain calm and say ONLY "I am fighting to save my marriage" and nothing more. If she tries to say YOU harmed her relationship with her family and friends by telling them, all you say is "I only told them the truth. Is there something wrong with them knowing about it?"
> 
> If they continue, then you call her boss and tell him his coworkers are carrying on an affair and are using workplace materials and time to do so. You may want to hint that his company may be liable for lawsuits, you'll be checking with your lawyer.
> 
> Above all, you have to get them to never see each other again. If it requires her quitting, even you moving, your marriage is worth it. Their affair will never end emotionally if they continue to see each other at work.


2010?! 2010?! You have been on TAM since 2010?! Holy fvck! 


O


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