# How to handle rejection...



## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

This kinda goes out to Mem, and BigBadWolf and others with the same views....... but I would love to hear from others as well.

I have been quite successful in change the dynamic between me and my wife and she is doing much more to contribute around the house and between us. 

She has been much more pleasant, more careful how she speaks to me and acknolodges and apologizes more when she slips up. All good things and as a whole - things are quite a bit better.

Being more assertive has served me well but the one area I'm not quite sure how to handle is rejection.

I don't understand someone not wanting to enjoy pleasure, and I really don't like being rejected. I don't beg, I don't barter, and I don't kiss her ass. But what's the correct method to deal with rejection while still building respect and sexual tension. I've tried pushing through her rejection - sometimes I'll succeed but for the times that I don't the appropriate action would be.......


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

Nobody have any insight on this, male, female - your own methods?????/


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## Idontknownow (Sep 30, 2010)

I don't understand why women don't want pleasure either unless sex is painful or your hurt or ill (though my husband says he'd rather catch my colds then go without sex and I'm not about to complain  )

Proper care and feeding of husbands is the only book I have read that makes it clear why we shouldn't reject our men. But I honestly don't real allot of relationship books my mother gave me that one when I got married and I am glad.

Any time he wants sex and I don't I do it cuz it's a chance to be close to him and about 5 mins into it he puts me in the mood. I would be deeply hurt if I went to him for sex and he didn't want me. Shoot...I get irritated when he has been working hard and I want it and he falls asleep early. But I do try to be understanding (3 days is my limit and he knows it).

I have no answer. It's part of her commitment to you to meet your needs, to share the love and connection and excitement threw foreplay and sex! It's not difficult and it's not rocket science. If she's tired maybe say you understand that and you will take a turn being on top and pleasuring her to get her engine going  But just not doing it cuz someone doesn't feel like it is....not showing enough effort in the marriage.


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

It's probably best to be realistic about the frequency of sex you can expect. If you are asking every day, you have to assume some percentage of rejection and you can build that into your expectations.

If you only ask once per month, I can see where rejection gets worse but maybe you build that into expectations, too.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

Our frequency has been a problem. Maybe every week and a half to two weeks. I would like it to be 3 times a week or so. So I approach her every two to three days. It doesnt' have to be intercourse, sometimes oral, sometimes manual, whatever but a connection a few times a week seems reasonable. It's apparantly on me to initiate, but when I'm running into a wall I need a strategy.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

I should point out that it has increased some, not intercourse itself but some connection on some level. Maybe three times in two weeks right now.


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## NickCampbell (Oct 18, 2010)

How to handle rejection? Grow up and thicken your skin. Throwing a fit because someone says "no" is a sign of immaturity, nothing more. 

What do you mean by "push through her rejection?" I think "no" generally means "no." ,,,not keep asking or trying to get what you want. 

Being assertive is great, but it means respecting what *other* people want out of the situation as well, it's not just *your* way or nothing. That's not assertiveness at all, that's domineering and being a bully. 

You say a lot about what you don't do ("beg, barter, kiss her ass"), but what do you *do* to better the situation? You sound a bit like a dictator ("she learned to watch how she talks to me, learned to apologize asap") - you're in a marriage with this woman for God sakes! It should be fun, you *each* need to be getting fulfillment and support and capable of having fun with each other. 

Did you ever think what *you* consider "pleasurable experiences," may not be for her? Have you talked to her about what she likes out of sex, how you can improve, get her in the mood, etc? 

Your post screams of selfishness and only considering what *you* want. Respect will come once you learn to acknowledge what she wants..


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## 76Trombones (Jun 2, 2010)

It sounds like you are trying to be her father rather than her partner. That is quite condescending and no wonder she doesn't want to be intimate with you. Who wants to be intimate with their father? (eww)

Maybe you should change your attitude a bit and act more like a loving partner than a father figure/school teacher. That kind of attitude is a HUGE turn off. You could start by first learning how to respect her as a human being (as opposed to a child, which is glaringly obvious when you read your post). One rule of thumb to remember is the old classic: "treat others the way you want to be treated". It's an oldie but a goodie. Also remember that she is just as much of an adult as you, and thus she will talk, act and behave in whichever fashion she feels like. It is not your job to change her as a person. If you don't like the person she is, then you might as well pack it all in now and go and find someone else who is more childish or immature, who will tolerate your condescending behaviour.


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## BigBadWolf (Nov 30, 2009)

eagleclaw said:


> This kinda goes out to Mem, and BigBadWolf and others with the same views....... but I would love to hear from others as well.


Most responses I see already, I would completely ignore.



> I have been quite successful in change the dynamic between me and my wife and she is doing much more to contribute around the house and between us.


Excellent!



> She has been much more pleasant, more careful how she speaks to me and acknolodges and apologizes more when she slips up. All good things and as a whole - things are quite a bit better.


Respect to you is increasing. 

Be watchful in this, as it rises to a point, interject more humor and ease into your interactions, as she sees respecting you, and being in a relationship with you and seeing this assertive and dominant side of you, make sure as dark and sexual as it can be, that it is just as fun, humorous, and exciting. 

Humor, and being at ease with yourself, your woman, and your relationship, when on the path to righting a relationship that has otherwise been off keel with lack of respect, humor will balance out the dark side of you that you are more willing to show. 

As respect grows, darkness and humor, keep these in balance.



> Being more assertive has served me well but the one area I'm not quite sure how to handle is rejection.


Describe if you can, more detail on how this rejection seems to be.

Physical sex rejection, should I assume? 

This rejection, it needs to be correctly identified, either as legitimate sign of pieces of the relationship not in place (sexual attraction, emotoinal connection, health issue), or a simple fitness test that needs to be easily passed or dismissed (my assumption, always look for the "sh!t test"!)



> I don't understand someone not wanting to enjoy pleasure, and I really don't like being rejected.


Doubtful that your woman doesn't want to enjoy pleasure. 

Again, very likely merely a fitness test. 



> I don't beg, I don't barter, and I don't kiss her ass.


Excellent.



> But what's the correct method to deal with rejection while still building respect and sexual tension.


The most correct way is to avoid rejection altogether. 

To do this properly, understand the concept of consent, and remove consent from being necessary to acknowledge each and every time for sex. 

This pulls your sexual relationship out of the business and boring realm, and into the realm of passion, primal desires, and deep sexual bliss.

I have found, and you may find as well, that the "safe word" concept is the proper way to implement this into the relationship.

This is so, when there is legitimate issues, each of you can stop whatever is happening cold with just one word. 

In this way, consent is maintianed, understood, and this element of security and trust is always present. While at the same time, the deepest, darkest, most aggresive sexual practices and dynamics can be pursued with reckless abandon. 

This is what you want! 

So to continue, to avoid rejections, stop all actions that demand some go ahead or permission from your woman to proceed with sex. 

Too much talking leading up to sex, a no-no.

Asking a woman with words if she is wanting to have sex, well, you just invited a 50% chance of failure before takeoff with that genius move.

Even without words, getting into a routine that at a certain point in foreplay, is hesitation or stopping, waiting for some "go ahead" from your woman, same as above.

These things work:

Tell her she's too sexy for your own good, and proceed to strip off all clothes and get to business.

Grabbing her hair, and directing her to get to business.

Stare hard at her, and tell her to show you what she's got, and let her get busy.

Wrestle her in to position, grab her hair, pull down her panties, and give her oral and stimulate g-spot with finger simultaneous until she orgasms at least once. 



> I've tried pushing through her rejection - sometimes I'll succeed but for the times that I don't the appropriate action would be.......


Remove the need for rejection.

Respect the safe word.

Foreplay, it is not just a few times a week. 

Make your woman aware that you desire her at all times, that she should be "on guard" at all times, lest her sexual charms overtake you to the point that you lose control.

Drop the routine, make sex not a few times a week, but an everpresent fixture of how you relate and desire your woman.

When this is done right, the good man will often find he cannot keep up with his woman's appetites, so strongly will this attutide light a fire in her blazing beyond what I can describe on a family friendly forum!

I hope some of this is helpful to you.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

NickCampbell said:


> How to handle rejection? Grow up and thicken your skin. Throwing a fit because someone says "no" is a sign of immaturity, nothing more.
> 
> What do you mean by "push through her rejection?" I think "no" generally means "no." ,,,not keep asking or trying to get what you want.
> 
> ...


Dude, you seriously need to do some catching up.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I cannot remember whose thread it was, but I thought their therapist had a novel way of addressing sexual expectations. They were each given a smooth stone, like a polished river stone.

They would each place their stone on the dresser. If one of them removed the stone, that was a clear signal that they were not interested in any sexual advances.

I thought this was a brilliant 'shallow end' approach to setting expectations and allowing the low drive partner to feel like they could still set a boundary.

This is effectively identical to BBW's safe word, but you are instead using a prop to send a signal of interest or disinterest.

I think you may want to consider something similar. Set the expectation that if she removes her stone you will absolutely respect her boundary _and still be respectful and affectionate_. But ... if she consistently removes the stone then she obviously isn't being respectful of your needs. For the sake of balance, I would also suggest that you don't leave your stone parked on the dresser. Remove it occasionally to send her the message that you take this seriously.

Set a consequence. Could be as simple as you _don't_do something _she_ wants from you, to the extreme that you will end the relationship.

I think this would be a good method enabling you to avoid the feeling of being rejected, while continuing to improve yourself. It enables her to reduce her anxiety or sense of constant expectation.

Like I said however, if she rejects the idea outright, or doesn't hold up her end of the bargain, you may want start weighing your options.

Good luck.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

BigBadWolf said:


> Most responses I see already, I would completely ignore.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


An example of rejection is like this:

I don't generally ask for sex - in this case I came back from getting a drink of water, we were watching tv together in bed. When I came back in the room I jumped under the covers and started kissing her stomache - I hadn't decided yet whether to move up to her breasts or down - but at that point she started to use her hands to block me and said not tonight...... I kept going anyways for a few minutes and she said, "no, really not tonight honey - it's not going to happen". At that point I got off her, said nothing and started watching the TV again. I didn't say anything but I was annoyed - and I have no doubt she could tell. 

That's generally how it happens - I don't ask, unless I suggest she crawl under the covers or something but she generally doesn't take my hints very well so I have stopped doing that. Now I generally just initiate. But when I run into this kinda roadblock I'm stumped. I did suggest a safe word for her - but we have never used it. I have never really pushed a boundry that would require her to. I intend to, which is why I have the word but haven't gone there yet. She loves Oral, and I'm good at it and she goes crazy when I do it - which makes it weird to stop me when I might be going there....... I know I wouldn't!


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

That stone idea is interesting too......... I like it in theory - but on some level it seems counter productive to a normal healthy relatioship between two people that love each other. Maybe good for alimited time approach....


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

I think BBW has offered sound advise. I have noticed that if I don't "ask" for sex, I do tend to actually get it more often. It's just speculation on my part, but I believe my wife equates "asking" as weakness. If I ask or pester her about sex, I assign her a role of power and I assign myself a submissive role. I haven't tried the sexual attack strategy suggested, but resorted to a posture of almost feigned indifference to sex. I compliment her often and give her kisses and caresses, little teases, but if she doesn't respond, I just go about my business and don't give her any indication that her lack of response bothers me in the least. After some time, she eventually comes to me. I think women want their men to be strong and confident (or at least appear so) and they have a need to feel secure and protected. Someone weaker than them can't protect or provide security. Also, women are keenly competitive. A guy that's constantly obviously looking to her for sex shows her she has no competition, no reason to exert herself at all to please him. I think BBW is slowly making a convert of me.


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## Idontknownow (Sep 30, 2010)

eagleclaw said:


> An example of rejection is like this:
> 
> I don't generally ask for sex - in this case I came back from getting a drink of water, we were watching tv together in bed. When I came back in the room I jumped under the covers and started kissing her stomache - I hadn't decided yet whether to move up to her breasts or down - but at that point she started to use her hands to block me and said not tonight...... I kept going anyways for a few minutes and she said, "no, really not tonight honey - it's not going to happen". At that point I got off her, said nothing and started watching the TV again. I didn't say anything but I was annoyed - and I have no doubt she could tell.


While I understand your frustration if closeness and love is what you want in addition to sex WHY get off her and sit by yourself and pout? Why not just smile, pull her into your arms and continue watching TV together? That alone may change her mind. 

Being close to my husband even when he's not initiating sex is a turn on. Smelling him, feeling his body heat and arms around me. If he gets an erection snuggled up behind me but not saying he wants sex makes it feel like a very natural step for me to role over and start kissing him. Have you asked if she likes non verbal sexual advances or does she want you to just come out and say what you want.

I think most women are fairly romantic creatures, we like to be adored first and let the sex follow naturally. Your turning away could feel as much like a rejection to her as her saying no was to you. It leaves a bad taste in her mouth and doesn't set a great example of what you want to get FROM HER.

I also read the post about the stones Deejo posted and thought it was a fantastic idea!


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## Idontknownow (Sep 30, 2010)

One more thing...I like to play hard to get, I like to pretend to fight him off and have him come after me. So for me doesn't hardly ever means no...it means show me how bad you want me 

Before he knew this about me he would back off like you. Then I just spoke up and was like "Really? Your just gonna give up like that?" since then he doesn't give up and in turn I pursue him when he doesn't come after me.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

Thanks for that Idontknownow - intersting stuff. I have done the just snuggle and enjoy each other thing lots........ but I dont' flat out ever deny her. There are times when I'm not into it - example just after a vascectomy, after pulling a groin musce, had a bout of prostatis - but if she was in the mood I still got her off and was happy to do it - it may have been through oral, or manual or with toys but my lady wanted it and I was all to happy to accomodate - even though I personally didn't want it reciprocated. It would be nice to have that returned. (For the record, I won't be doing that kinds of thing anymore becuase it's not reciprocated)

But maybe she does want me to pursue further. 

She didn't hint a long time ago that she wanted more aggression at times, or more forcefulness - but the few times I dabbled with it were obviously not the right times as she got quite annoyed. (talk about mixed messages) I was digging it though!


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## BigBadWolf (Nov 30, 2009)

eagleclaw said:


> An example of rejection is like this:
> 
> I don't generally ask for sex - in this case I came back from getting a drink of water, we were watching tv together in bed. When I came back in the room I jumped under the covers and started kissing her stomache - I hadn't decided yet whether to move up to her breasts or down - but at that point she started to use her hands to block me and said not tonight...... I kept going anyways for a few minutes and she said, "no, really not tonight honey - it's not going to happen". At that point I got off her, said nothing and started watching the TV again. I didn't say anything but I was annoyed - and I have no doubt she could tell.


Unless there was some obvious physical ailment, this is a sh!t test classic.

The fact that she tells you what I imagine was in somewhat of an attitude tone, what is or isn't going to happen, this is not proper.




> That's generally how it happens - I don't ask, unless I suggest she crawl under the covers or something but she generally doesn't take my hints very well so I have stopped doing that. Now I generally just initiate. But when I run into this kinda roadblock I'm stumped. I did suggest a safe word for her - but we have never used it. I have never really pushed a boundry that would require her to. I intend to, which is why I have the word but haven't gone there yet. She loves Oral, and I'm good at it and she goes crazy when I do it - which makes it weird to stop me when I might be going there....... I know I wouldn't!


Don't be stumped, don't give this another thought.

You need to commit to reinforce the safe word, even give her a more gentle chance to try it to see how it works, expect this. 

When she does use it just to test it, be calm, understanding, but make sure to be prepared if necessary that sex is off the table for any rest of evening, period. 

This prevents the safe word from being just another tool for a fitness test, as it should ONLY be used when physical or emotional boundries are in jeopardy, not abused as a mere fitness test.

I can say regarding the man taking sex off the table with his woman, for a woman to be rejected for sex by her man, even for noble reasons, this is a strike to her esteem, as in her lifetime this simply is not likely part of her experience. So if and when the man decides that sex is off the table for whatever reason, the man should BE PREPARED for tears and a very strong and emotional reaction from his woman. 

Use caution and tread with care, be prepared for this, and remain calm and confident. 

I say this, for if and when this scenario comes up, it will not be a surprise to the good man, when he sees the relationship dynamics in action when he himself takes control of himself and his desires in the relationship.

And these things, are in preparation for the next step that you are missing, and need to do.

Which is, ratchet up your desires, actions, and behaviors to explore aggressive sexual initation with your woman. 

The aggressive scenarios I already mentioned, wrestling, pinning, grabbing hair, ripping off clothes, expressions of (almost) out of control lust and passion to your woman. 

Look for the ways to explore this with your woman, both to show her the safe word in action, the dismal feeling of you taking sex off the table, and the blissful feeling of seeing you aggressive and dominant in bed. 

Look for the ways to demonstrate this entire spectrum of sexual experience of passion with you, this will lay the foundation to continue to explore higher and deeper and darker and exotic expressions of sexual connection, including VERY aggressive sexual connection that I hesitate to hint at on this public forum.

But to say, lay this groundwork, and let your imagination be the only limit to what you can experience in the reality with your woman, and seeing her light on fire with desire and sexual unleashed herself, being confident, secure, and aggresive herself to explore freely her own secret sexual desires and fantasies lived out with her man, to the delight of both the good man and woman, that is the goal in all of this. 

Happiness and sexual bliss for the both of you!


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

So if I undertand you fully - make sure she is aware of the safe word and it's use - then if I hit rejection get aggressive and just for it unless she uses the safe word - in which case immediately stop and intimacy is off the table for the evening but otherwise everything else is light and fun still.....

Also - if I am getting the **** test rejection attempt - I may not always be in mood myself to push ahead each time. What would another appropriate response be?

Stop and go do something else?

Pretend I don't care and be outwardly pleasant?

Awknowledge I am annoyed?

Don't initiate again until she does? Could be awhile.......

If it's a once in awhile thing I don't care that much I'm referring to if it's often.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

eagleclaw said:


> So if I undertand you fully - make sure she is aware of the safe word and it's use - then if I hit rejection get aggressive and just for it unless she uses the safe word - in which case immediately stop and intimacy is off the table for the evening but otherwise everything else is light and fun still.....
> 
> Also - if I am getting the **** test rejection attempt - I may not always be in mood myself to push ahead each time. What would another appropriate response be?
> 
> ...


Don't know how to help you since I am so different.

Humor, might get you out of the awkwardness. 

When does she feel tired? Never pick that time to seek sex, you'll be rejected more often. 

Pay attention to her mood, when a woman is happy, nothing bothered her that day, she tends not to reject. 

I am not suggesting you do house chores to make her happy. When a woman is bothered by other people, it is difficult for them to let it go. For example, somebody offended her that day by saying a silly sentence! We get bothered easily. 

Always touch her, grope her, spank her(gently), caress her, kiss her, stroke her hair, admire her, NO SEX IN MIND! Just show her you admiration.....................

You will get what you want!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

I good with humor, but it's not that I find the situation particularily awkward - I just don't understand it - I'm kinda looking for a response that stays alpha, and doesn't come off an needy but acknowledges this is getting old.

I do carress her and stroke her and show affection freely but thanks for the tip, cause when I get frustrated it's probably the first thing that goes and the reminder is always welcome!


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## Idontknownow (Sep 30, 2010)

It sounds like your marriage really needs a kick in the pants or a jump start.

Your trying to do all this stuff to keep things going but it doesn't sound like allot of communication is happening to find out how each other feel. 

What is she doing to keep the marriage going? Working alone sounds mighty lonely.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

I would say she is trying as well..... but in different areas. She is trying to help out more around the house, is being more in control of her tone and the words she uses, and is being much more nice to be around generally speaking. She MAY even be making a small effort sexually, as we have had some manual fun and she suprised me with oral one day - but overall - it's still pretty infrequent and largly my tenaciousness that has driven it...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The aggression thing - there is no science to it. I will share my tactics, your mileage may vary - YMMV.

I am ONLY aggressive when she is not:
- tired
- tense
- down

So basically she is already in a good/ok mood. 

Generally I provoke her mildly OUTSIDE the bedroom. I might take something from her hand - or come up behind her and startle her - some people hate that - you know your wife.

And usually that minor provocation is sufficient. So our non-sexual - at least not directly sexual behavior is: I provoke her somehow, sometimes even verbally. And then we "box" now boxing consists of her punching and landing upper body blows. No head shots and NO hitting below the belt. She is mildly sadistic so this turns her on. My "fighting" in this context consists of mocking her and saying she hits like a "girl". 

Once she warms up I use footwork to get us either near a bed or a couch and then we wrestle. I do not go all out - meaning I let it be a real contest. 

If we do THAT during the day we always end up having sex. Always. 

The other thing I do is I will give her a nice long back massage and then I pin her down by her hands and tell her that when she agrees to take her shirt off I will let her up. And then I repeat that process - massage/overpower/strip until she is naked. When she wants me to amp the aggression she is - umm - uncooperative. 

She has never ever used our safe word. 




eagleclaw said:


> I would say she is trying as well..... but in different areas. She is trying to help out more around the house, is being more in control of her tone and the words she uses, and is being much more nice to be around generally speaking. She MAY even be making a small effort sexually, as we have had some manual fun and she suprised me with oral one day - but overall - it's still pretty infrequent and largly my tenaciousness that has driven it...


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## BigBadWolf (Nov 30, 2009)

eagleclaw said:


> So if I undertand you fully - make sure she is aware of the safe word and it's use - then if I hit rejection get aggressive and just for it unless she uses the safe word - in which case immediately stop and intimacy is off the table for the evening but otherwise everything else is light and fun still.....


This sounds good, but understand to take intimacy/sex off the table, do this of course if it is appropriate to do so, otherwise, maybe change directions, or take a break, whatever is necessary.

The point is two-fold, for the good man to be prepared to make this decision himself, and also important for his woman to experience his leadership in this, for her to see that yes, he is so much the man that he can put sex off the table if necessary.

This is sometimes difficult to explain, but it goes hand in glove with not being perceived as "needy" to your woman, that you are capable of following your own leadership and control of yourself. 

Again, be careful on this, tread lightly, as sexual rejection to a woman, it can be a hit, very powerful.



> Also - if I am getting the **** test rejection attempt - I may not always be in mood myself to push ahead each time. What would another appropriate response be?
> 
> Stop and go do something else?
> 
> ...


All the above, depending on your own feelings of resentment.

Maintain the attitude that you can have any woman in the world, yet desire your woman. If this is truth, then how would you behave?

Communicate your honest feelings and thoughts on the matter to your woman, either then, or later if appropriate, regardless, do not hold in as these feelings and thoughts WILL become resentment on top of resentment.

Myself, when given any fitness test, I make sure to show not only is this test easily passed, but I make sure to as well communicate to my woman some how that I am wise to her ways, and I will often not hesitate to make some comment or gesture that SHE is the one needing to watch out. 

This could be a swat on the rear, or some over the top comment about myself or my desires, regardless, I will find away to communicate, even with humor, there are indeed consequences to my woman's behavior, that there is not a "free ride". 

Understand, this is difficult to type out to not look mean, but the reality is just this, in my relationship, there is not much of an attitude of "unconditional this" or "unconditional that", that all actions and behaviors and control and responsibilities and decisions have consequences.

So my woman, even in much humor, but regardless, she always gets the sense from me that we are in a mutually satisfying sexual and emotoinal relationship, that I have expectations and desires (as does she of course), and that I have every intention to make my expectations and desires met.



> Don't initiate again until she does? Could be awhile.......


For me, I would never deliberatley give my woman this kind of power over our mutual sexual relations, to wait and see until she is initiating.

If something is wrong in the relationship, fix it.

Otherwise, pursue what you desire.



> If it's a once in awhile thing I don't care that much I'm referring to if it's often.


Read MEM11363 post, it is exactly right.

Sexual connection, foreplay, it doesn't start in the bedroom 30 minutes before sex or whatever.

Sexual connection and foreplay, it should be everpresent in your relationship with your woman, like the air you breathe.

In this way, there should not be a "wait and see" attitude, but an attitude of constant sexual relations and emotoinal connections. So that the good man will know, and communicate, and be in touch with his woman how the sexual and emotoinal connection is healthy and strong and flirtatious and sensual and erotic as often as they are together!


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## BigBadWolf (Nov 30, 2009)

unbelievable said:


> I think BBW is slowly making a convert of me.


Pay attention to your woman, it is her, and not me, that will be most convincing.

Her actions and behavior, let them be what converts you!


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

If anyone comes up with a magic pill that you can take every time you're rejected so you don't end up feeling undesirable and worthless, let me know - I'll take a case!

I haven't figured it out yet. If I don't approach, I don't get rejected, but then again I don't get sex either - so its a no win situation.

So I take care of things myself and get more angry and more frustrated...this is not what I signed up for, but I love him and can't/won't walk away.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

Thanks guys, great stuff there. MEM your illustration was very helpful as well - and strangly enough we actually do wrestle a fair bit - always have and usually she initiates that. It generally doesn't turn sexual but it might start to!

And BBW - I agree about the resentment thing which is why I don't like to ignore the fact that I am annoyed - however - if I try and she stops me, then I get annoyed and bring that up - I don't want to come across as needy, or beta as that is a pattern we have had for some time. I need a good strong alpha response for the rejection that is lighhearted - shows strength and indifference, but makes it obvious that that action has a consequence and is counter productive to our marriage. (Yes I realize there will be times when things won't work out - or she really isn't in the mood, doesn't feel good etc - I'm talking about repeated blocks with no real reason)

I'm not sure what kind of consequence could be related to that action either. I would like to think of something where I am still upbeat and outwardly pleasant and indifferent - but X has happened so now Y has happened.

Any ideas - and thing you guys use when your wife rejects for no good reason. I suppose that doesn't happen much for you guys but it must have at one point..... maybe with an X girlfriend or something???????

Thanks


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

MarriedWifeInLove - that is a pattern I had for a long time. It's getting better slowly. But it is very comforting to see the opposite sex feels the same way, and deals with it the same way when the tables are reversed. I have not approached my wife for long periods when things were really bad and it never seemed to faze her. She just took care of things herself.

One thing you might try with him that has driven me crazy and forced my hand to - is to take care of yourself right next to him in bed...... be noisy about it and don't hold back. If he doesn't respond by joining in or something grab your phone and call 911, then tell the operator you need an ambulance because your husband is apparantly unconscious and unresponsive. 

In all seriousness, if everything else is good and this doesn't get his attention then he is either gay, VERY resentful, or struggling with ED.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

unbelievable said:


> I haven't tried the sexual attack strategy suggested, but resorted to a posture of almost feigned indifference to sex. I compliment her often and give her kisses and caresses, little teases, but if she doesn't respond, I just go about my business and don't give her any indication that her lack of response bothers me in the least. After some time, she eventually comes to me. ........... I think BBW is slowly making a convert of me.



Oh boy this is going to get interesting ! My husband was just like YOU - and I ended up coming to him many times.

I WISH he had been the way BBW has described, I simply KNOW it would have changed our sexual dynamics back in the day! If you missed these outstanding /excellent posts describing this "attractive" behavior in more detail -with examples - please go to this page & read his wisdom in this.  


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/17436-nice-guys-other-types-2.html#post199085


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I taught my W this a LONG time ago. Whenever she asks me if I want to do something, or she requests something that is important to her I either say "sure or I cannot do that at the time you requested, glad to do it on X date"

This is just part of being a good partner. I don't reject her requests - worst case I defer them until some specific nearby date and then I follow through. 

Sex is no different. If I approach - worst case she asks if we can connect tomorrow. This is not a rejection - just a deferral. 

But that is all predicated on the idea that if it is important to your spouse - by definition - it is important to you. And we BOTH act that way. If she treated sex as unimportant - I don't see why I would give her long list of "needs" a top priority. 

With that said I "NEVER" approach her when I can tell she is having a bad night. Because that isn't nice and I would not want that done to me. 





eagleclaw said:


> Thanks guys, great stuff there. MEM your illustration was very helpful as well - and strangly enough we actually do wrestle a fair bit - always have and usually she initiates that. It generally doesn't turn sexual but it might start to!
> 
> And BBW - I agree about the resentment thing which is why I don't like to ignore the fact that I am annoyed - however - if I try and she stops me, then I get annoyed and bring that up - I don't want to come across as needy, or beta as that is a pattern we have had for some time. I need a good strong alpha response for the rejection that is lighhearted - shows strength and indifference, but makes it obvious that that action has a consequence and is counter productive to our marriage. (Yes I realize there will be times when things won't work out - or she really isn't in the mood, doesn't feel good etc - I'm talking about repeated blocks with no real reason)
> 
> ...


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

MarriedWifeInLove - just read a couple of your posts and see there actually IS other problems.

I haven't read them all just a quick scan re ED issues and porn etc and thought I would point out that excessive porn can cause ED issues by desensitizing you. He should stop the porn completely. 
But now it takes a lot harder core porn and imagry to excite him.

Once thing you can try is escalate in the bedroom the same way. This requires you to be real comfortable with yourself, and being willing to throw some new tools in your sexual toolbox.

Do things completely different and out of character for you. I can't suggest here what I mean - but watch a few of these vids he watches and duplicate some of the scenes he finds arousing.......I'm not suggesting doing anything that your not ok with both move a little outa your comfort zone and get your freak on as much as you can. Suprise him, get dirty - you might find this escalation in the bedroom gets him going again.

But he needs to stop the porn and resensitize. If your watching endless scenes to arouse you to get aroused, just simply seeing your wife lying naked next to you is not going to do it anymore. And dont' think he has ED so he's not watching it to get aroused. He IS getting aroused - or he wouldn't be interested.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> If anyone comes up with a magic pill that you can take every time you're rejected so you don't end up feeling undesirable and worthless, let me know - I'll take a case!
> 
> I haven't figured it out yet. If I don't approach, I don't get rejected, but then again I don't get sex either - so its a no win situation.
> 
> So I take care of things myself and get more angry and more frustrated...this is not what I signed up for, but I love him and can't/won't walk away.



MarriedWifeInLove

I really wish I could come up with a solution for women whose husbands are remote. 

So far I haven't. I am asking BBW and MEM to figure it out for us. I guess they know how to help MEN, but they don't know how to help WOMEN. Challenging.............!!!

The only advice I can give is by us looking sexy and delicious, put us in front of them, seduce them, make them horny, then take their virginity!!!


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

MEM - did you set up at the beginning with her that if your not interested put it off to the next day but then follow through - or is this something she just instictively did herself?


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> I taught my W this a LONG time ago. Whenever she asks me if I want to do something, or she requests something that is important to her I either say "sure or I cannot do that at the time you requested, glad to do it on X date"
> 
> This is just part of being a good partner. I don't reject her requests - worst case I defer them until some specific nearby date and then I follow through.
> 
> ...


I would really like to sit you and my husband together!

I just want to know the physical difference!

Inside of you guys' hearts, you are very similar!!!


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Don't mean to hijack your post, but thanks for the advice. I have spiced things up (BIG TIME - READ SOME OF MY OTHER POSTS). This helps short-term, but not long-term.

To be perfectly upfront - I'm beginning to think he's not sexually attracted to me anymore and won't admit it. This could be my imagination working overtime...but at this point it's how I feel.

I look better now than most 30 year olds, I don't know what else I can do at this point, but I'm frustrated beyond belief.

Other men have told me I'm hot, but the only man I want to hear that from acts like he couldn't be bothered with me. My hormones must be working overtime this week!


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

Only he would know for sure, but I would think the porn is a huge problem here. It just too much stimulation on a a continual basis for him to be easily turned on by a mere mortal!

I seriously would try the masterbation thing right next to him a few times. If he has performance anxiety then he might get it the first few times. But then he will get used to it and won't get performance anxiety - then after than he might start getting aroused. And when/if he does - your right there, obviously in the mood and all he has to do is roll over and join in. And if he doesn't..... you still have a good time in his vicinity with him while slowly getting his guard down.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

Actually I would go one step further - tell him you DON"T want sex. You just want to masterbate and for him to be there. Then he has no reason to have performance anxiety because you don't want sex. If he gets arounsed he can take care of himself..... without the onus of any expectation on your part - it may remove the anxiety for him after a few times and jump start him. BUT THE PORN WILL HAVE TO GO


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Don't mean to hijack your post, but thanks for the advice. I have spiced things up (BIG TIME - READ SOME OF MY OTHER POSTS). This helps short-term, but not long-term.
> 
> To be perfectly upfront - I'm beginning to think he's not sexually attracted to me anymore and won't admit it. This could be my imagination working overtime...but at this point it's how I feel.
> 
> ...


MarriedWifeInLove

I was talking to my husband about this today. I asked him why a lot of men don't want to have sex with their wives. My husband said it is very unusual that a man doesn't want to have sex. The possibility is he might be having an affair, he might be getting sex somewhere else. I suggested other possibilities, he said unless the wife is obese or too negative to have sex with. 

I don't know much about men. I want to crack open their heads and find out what is going on in it!


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Thanks for the input. 

I can't figure out men either - at least not mine sometimes. 

I'll try that eagleclaw - tonight - I'll say I want to take care of myself but would like you to watch...let's see if that works.

If I could get this worked out things would be perfect (for me at least).

Again - thanks for the advice.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

Great MarriedWifeInLove.

But one thing - if he gets performance anxiety and you ask him if he wants to watch, he may get nervious and say no. I think I would take the initiate here and make it clear that you do not want sex tonight - but you are going to take care of yourself beside him. Just leave it there. If he just watches great. If he tries to have sex say no thanks (be true to your word) but invite him to take care of himself with you. If he leaves, continue he may come back this time or the next. The idea is to remove the "peformance" required that spurs the anxiety - Additinally by taking sex off the table that might also intrigue him as people generally want things more when they can't have them. Your doing something that might arouse him, AND telling him he can't have you. Post back here how this works out........... I might try this myself!

If he enjoys watching porn, but decides he doensn't enjoy watching you then I think something else is going on here..... but give it a few tries before you make any decisions on this as you are trying something new and it may take a few times to get his real reaction after the shock value has diminished.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Thanks! I'll try it out and keep you posted.


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## Sara Ann (Aug 27, 2010)

This is what helped me. I am the high desire partner (every other day), he is the lower desire partner (1-2/week). First, I had to learn that the lower desire partner for anything always controls the frequency of that thing (sex, vacation, chores, anything, read David Schnarch's sex & marriage books). Second, when he told me his desired frequency, I reset my expecations! Aha! How easy now to not feel rejected since I am not expecting! 

And third, the marriage counseling helped him see it was important to stay loving and attentive and the benefits, and as our relationship improved he maintained the connection throughout every day, which made me less needy of sex to feel the connection.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

Anyone else want to share how they react to rejection?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

When I was not that into sex, but would have rather spent my nights just reading a book or cuddling with my baby in bed, my husband's reaction >> *He just acted like he didnt think much about sex either*! Then waited for me to pursue him many times. He never outright compained, nagged, or even showed his frustration, but he WAS less patient with the kids. He was stressed, even angry --but hid it very well. 

I do not recommend this Reaction>> burying your pain. For the majority is very very unhealthy, my husband has a very very very calm temperment, most could not swing with this.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Used patience, kindness and understanding, didn't take it personally. Waited for her to come around ... she didn't.

Got to the point where I didn't want to bring up the word, because I already had, hundreds of times. No change.

Tried the safe/aggressive thing once ... once. She froze up like a deer in the headlights. Did wonders for my self-esteem.

I would try to set up romance for the evening starting in the morning, she would respond very positively, touch, hugs, loving looks. When it came to game time, she would shut down.

When things ended, the way I handled rejection was by yelling "Exactly how long do you expect me to put up with this!? Is this what you want? Because it certainly isn't what I want." and "This is exactly why people cheat ..." Then I'd get dressed and storm out of the bedroom. I started utterly ignoring her and demeaning every shortcoming she had. I let absolutely nothing slide. I moved out. We are done. Both moving on.

It was bad. Obviously the latter method isn't going to help you much, but it shows you where things can go. It should never get there. It doesn't need to be that way. Maybe you should show this to your wife.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Amen Deejo!

I don't think the "rejector" realizes how it destroys the self-esteem of the "rejectee." Maybe the shoe on the other foot would work for some. 

Sex is a VERY important part of marriage to me. If it's not to you, then save yourself and everyone else a whole lot of grief and stay single - easy, simple solution - no one gets hurt.

Now of course I'm dealing with medical issues, etc., so a little different spin on the situation - but, you still need to try and work on it - if not, then don't be surprised if you end up with a spouse having a PA or worse, terminating the marriage.

Neither is a choice for me - but, for others, they see no way out.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

Deejo, in you case what do you think was the issue with your wife from her side? Was is loss of love? Some tramautic experience she in with sex before you? An affair? Aversion to sex?

I've read some of your comments on other threads and you don't sound much different than me.....reasonable, logical and comfortable in your own skin. So if the problem was with your wife, do you have any idea what it was? Other than sex was she happy and nice to be around? Were you guys just a bad match and she will find happiness someplace else or is she simply going to be one of these ladies who has 24 cats in her house and kids in the neighborhood making up stories about the "crazy cat lady".


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Boy this marriage thing is rough, huh?


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

It sure can be, but it shouldn't be. I'm not that complicated to keep happy. Respect me, love me, and make me as much a priority as I make you and we will be very happy.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Last line made me laugh out loud.

D. All of the Above.

We started out with a very enthusiastic and robust sex life.

She developed physical issues, that led to sexual aversion. She was traumatized in a previous relationship. She lost attraction for me - but still valued me as a partner.

I do know for a fact that things started going downhill once she knew that I was fully committed to her and wanted to marry her. When our future was a question mark, she was invested. When our course became clear, and mundane routine set in, frequent sex vanished like the dinosaurs.

I contributed to the equation by being over-accommodating, over-loving, over-attentive and over-tolerant. I presumed all of these things would make me more desirable, not less.




eagleclaw said:


> Deejo, in you case what do you think was the issue with your wife from her side? Was is loss of love? Some tramautic experience she in with sex before you? An affair? Aversion to sex?
> 
> I've read some of your comments on other threads and you don't sound much different than me.....reasonable, logical and comfortable in your own skin. So if the problem was with your wife, do you have any idea what it was? Other than sex was she happy and nice to be around? Were you guys just a bad match and she will find happiness someplace else or is she simply going to be one of these ladies who has 24 cats in her house and kids in the neighborhood making up stories about the "crazy cat lady".


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

Your situation sounds similar to mine, abeit worse.

And I made all the same mistakes, and have left the room mad etc.

I'm hoping I have caught this, and changed my behavior before it is/was too late. She is making an effort now - just not seeing it sexually but my hope is it will come as well.

Even last night, I came home from work, made lunches, did the kids homework, made dinner, cleaned up the kitchen and living room all before she got home. When she got home I asked if she was going to do some laundry because I have nothing to wear to work and she said No she worked all day.

I calmly reminded her I also worked all day and yet I contributed to our domestic list quite substancially - and if her take was that she worked all day and was doing nothing else then don't expect anything from me Monday thru Friday. She got angry but I didn't participate, I went to do something else.

She got angry, but did some laundry. Wasn't terribly friendly but that's fine - I challanged her and she didn't like it -but responded. This morning she was sweet and told me she loved me, I said the same.

In the past we would have had a HUGE argument and would not talk for a week. The difference now is that I'm not participating and following her into a huge storm of a fight - I said my piece, told her what was going to happen if she continued on the path she was on and left the situation. She knows I mean it, and I think deep down knows I'm not being unfair. And today, she isn't bitter. Tonight remains to be seen.

I'm sure others will think I am still doing more than my share and I probably am. I work 6 until 2 so I can pick up the kids and not do daycare. She works until dinner time. So I naturally have more "daylight" hours to do some of this stuff. It's not so much I expect her to match me, but don't come home sit on your ass and not contribute at all on the premise you worked all day.... at least make the effort to contribute a little as you can!


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

If you believe that your relationship is moving in the right direction, than it doesn't much matter what anyone else thinks.

It's always going to be more of a journey than a destination.

You're doing the right things EC. I think it's great that you are taking these steps and seeing results.

Hold onto and defend those boundaries like a pit bull. Eventually, she'll love you for it. And if not her, someone else will


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Good luck EC. I've seen some of your responses work in my case too, but I want it to work long-term, not just today and tomorrow. Doing what I can to change my responses and my reactions, sometimes it works, sometimes not.

I really love my husband but sometimes all this work and drama grates on my nerves. Why can't it be simple and easy?


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

eagleclaw said:


> Your situation sounds similar to mine, abeit worse.
> 
> And I made all the same mistakes, and have left the room mad etc.
> 
> ...


Sweet thing you did!

Let her know that she lives in that house and she has to contribute too. Fair share!

My husband's approach is always like this: Do you want me to be like that? If you don't want me to be like that, then you don't be like that! Works like magic on his wife.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

eagleclaw said:


> It sure can be, but it shouldn't be. I'm not that complicated to keep happy. Respect me, love me, and make me as much a priority as I make you and we will be very happy.


A lot of men are actually very easy to be taken care of, I know that! 

Give you what you listed, and you are happy! 

Easy for me to give you what you listed! You just need to be a faithful and responsible man!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

EC,
As for how we got to the "no" rejection rule I don't remember. What I "can" tell you is that rules/lists and all that are ok for providing structure. But ultimately almost EVERYTHING is driven by at minimum a desire to avoid displeasing your partner and ideally a genuine desire to please your partner. 

So far your W has made some big strides in terms of fairness and respect outside the bedroom. I would describe her current behavior as "reactive/punishment avoidance" meaning she will do what you require when she knows that there is going to be a bad consequence to HER when she doesn't behave in a fair manner (doing her share of housework). And that is a great step. 

The next leap and it is a big one will be to try to get her to want to avoid displeasing you. She currently is quite aware that rejecting you is making you feel bad. And this is where it gets complicated. There is a big difference between her feeling indifferent to your misery and her choosing not to have sex because she really dislikes how sex feels when she is not in the mood. And only she knows which is true at this point. The thing is - if she makes the effort she can definitely teach you how to get her in the mood when she starts out in neutral. 

My suggestion is that you increase the playful conflict you have as much as possible. Wrestling is great. Also see if you can get her into a little boxing - you get to block but not punch. Conflict - playful conflict - and sex are next door neighbors for many men/women. And on a night where she does respond to you - see what happens if you put some edge into your voice and tell her to strip. Or move this way or that way. Tone of voice combined with short declarative statements can be incredibly powerful. 

Separate from that - give her a book "his needs/her needs" and get her to talk to you. At some point you need to get her to understand that sexual indifference is very bad for a marriage and that if she needs to coach you a bit on what turns her on you are glad to listen and learn. 




eagleclaw said:


> Your situation sounds similar to mine, abeit worse.
> 
> And I made all the same mistakes, and have left the room mad etc.
> 
> ...


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> EC,
> As for how we got to the "no" rejection rule I don't remember. What I "can" tell you is that rules/lists and all that are ok for providing structure. But ultimately almost EVERYTHING is driven by at minimum a desire to avoid displeasing your partner and ideally a genuine desire to please your partner.
> 
> So far your W has made some big strides in terms of fairness and respect outside the bedroom. I would describe her current behavior as "reactive/punishment avoidance" meaning she will do what you require when she knows that there is going to be a bad consequence to HER when she doesn't behave in a fair manner (doing her share of housework). And that is a great step.
> ...


Good advice, MEM!
Like to read your wisdom about dealing with spoiled wives!


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

I suggest you do a lot of outside the bedroom work where she can't really refuse you. Doing a ten second kiss on her and just walk away will mess with her mind a little. If you do things to her but then cut them off before her defense shields go up, it will hook her into you more.

When you try and start sex, don't just start fondling her hoping she thaws, make a positive statement of intent. "I want to cum on your breasts", "I want to lick you to orgasm and then climb on top of you". "I need you for five minutes in the bedroom". Hold eye contact with her until she breaks away or complies.

If she regularly declines you, start showing interest in other women and display that other women have some sort of interest in you. Cause and effect my love.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

Atholk said:


> I suggest you do a lot of outside the bedroom work where she can't really refuse you. Doing a ten second kiss on her and just walk away will mess with her mind a little. If you do things to her but then cut them off before her defense shields go up, it will hook her into you more.
> 
> When you try and start sex, don't just start fondling her hoping she thaws, make a positive statement of intent. "I want to cum on your breasts", "I want to lick you to orgasm and then climb on top of you". "I need you for five minutes in the bedroom". Hold eye contact with her until she breaks away or complies.
> 
> If she regularly declines you, start showing interest in other women and display that other women have some sort of interest in you. Cause and effect my love.


For men and women, I suggest the same thing! 

If our partners ignore the stuff which makes us happy, let them know that they are not the only people on this planet, there are a lot of other people will want our attention!

If we are good, be confident, and let them pursue us.

A lot of people stop the pursuing process after the rings on the finger, it is a very wrong attitude to have. Rings on the finger only says that I have stopped pursuing other people and I am going to focus on you from now on, I am going to do whatever I can to make you happy. 

Vice versa!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I actually believe the bit about showing interest in other women and very definitively letting her know other women are interested in you is effective. However that is the sledgehammer. Use it as a last resort. Play around with some tactics during the next month AND get her to read the "his needs/her needs" or some book like that. 

Ultimately - if your W isn't willing to make your needs a high priority you may need to use the sledgehammer. But don't start down that path unless you are willing to take it to the finish line. 

I HAVE used the "I am perfectly fine getting a girlfriend" line twice. I was calm when I said it. I was not bluffing. She knew I wasn't bluffing. And frankly I didn't say it because she had been starving me of sex. I said it because she threatened to starve me of sex in the future. 

I deserve better than that. Plain and simple. I am an excellent partner. She knows that. Both times she immediately went into sexual saturation mode. 

It is possible that at some level your W is somewhat sadistic and is using sex to fuvk with you, manipulate you. If that is true ALL THE GAME IN THE WORLD WON'T MATTER because she is going to reject you purely to be mean. 

If you get to that conclusion you need to choose your priorities. Personally - I put 100% into my marriage and would not tolerate mean spirited sexual starvation. But I think you should up your game for a while before you go the sledgehammer route as the hammer will either break her of this bad habit or break your marriage apart.



Atholk said:


> I suggest you do a lot of outside the bedroom work where she can't really refuse you. Doing a ten second kiss on her and just walk away will mess with her mind a little. If you do things to her but then cut them off before her defense shields go up, it will hook her into you more.
> 
> When you try and start sex, don't just start fondling her hoping she thaws, make a positive statement of intent. "I want to cum on your breasts", "I want to lick you to orgasm and then climb on top of you". "I need you for five minutes in the bedroom". Hold eye contact with her until she breaks away or complies.
> 
> If she regularly declines you, start showing interest in other women and display that other women have some sort of interest in you. Cause and effect my love.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

Thanks guys, helpful stuff. MEM it's ironic you mentioned His Needs/Her Needs. She actually bought that book a couple of years ago but we never read it. I remembered it and pulled it out a couple of days ago and it sits beside our bed waiting to be read. We were going to read it together but haven't got there yet. I'll make it a priority.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Does she work out? Could you work out together? Exercise can have a subtle but important impact on sex drive. 

Exercise + wrestling + playful banter - tease each other in a way that is rough but not mean + READING THE BOOK might:
- raise her desire AND
- help her understand how cruel routine, casual rejection is might make a difference.



eagleclaw said:


> Thanks guys, helpful stuff. MEM it's ironic you mentioned His Needs/Her Needs. She actually bought that book a couple of years ago but we never read it. I remembered it and pulled it out a couple of days ago and it sits beside our bed waiting to be read. We were going to read it together but haven't got there yet. I'll make it a priority.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

She used to work out but not for some time. She is wanting to get back into it and we have been talking about working out together. Probably will start that up soon.

I brought it up last night that when she refuses a couple of times in a row, then I back off and wait for her to come to me and she makes no effort that it is frustrating and breeds resentment. She got more and more angry as the discussion went on. I never yelled and stayed composed and direct through the conversation. She got loud, left the room and returned a few times....... threw in a few threats for measure and acted generally like a spoiled brat as in the past.

EX: Gave me her wedding ring and said I should hold it and only return it when I want a WIFE rather than a wh0re... 

Good times......... I can't help but to think if she has thing strong of a reaction at the very thought, or discussion of being intimate with me that she has some real issues with intimacy, or at least obviously intimacy with me.

I've tried the "I'm fine with getting a girlfriend" line in the past and she has said that is my choice to make but we won't be together if that's the road I choose.

She pointed out all the ways things have been better - and I agreed except I pointed out that without a strong sexual connection we are just really good friends......

She left it with she will guarantee once a week and anything over and above that is a bonus. I told her that's 3 a month. I told her I dont' want a guarantee of once a week that she will "GIVE" me sex. I want her to WANT to have that emotional connection herself and WE would be intimate together as often as we desired, ideally at least a couple of times a week. When she talks about "GIVING" sex my hair all stands up because I don't need her to GIVE it to me, I can GET it on my own. I just choose and expect to have that with my wife. She has a screwed up view of intimacy as far as I can tell. I'm really tempted to freeze her out for awhile. Although my guess is she might actually enjoy that


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

Don't get the idea she HATES sex, because she does seem to enjoy, and at times gets quite into it - it's just that it's ALWAYS on her terms, When SHE wants it, which isn't very often.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

eagleclaw,

What she said was really inappropriate. That is really disrespectful towards a man. She really doesn't know a word like this can hurt somebody a lot. 

Feel bad for you. Dealing with a woman like this is difficult. 

Never ever treat anybody in a condescending way. A lot of people know how to hurt, they don't know how to communicate!


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

eagleclaw said:


> Don't get the idea she HATES sex, because she does seem to enjoy, and at times gets quite into it - it's just that it's ALWAYS on her terms, When SHE wants it, which isn't very often.



When she wants it, you have to give it to her, or she will pout. 

When she doesn't want it, you can't do anything but suffer!

I have noticed something interesting!

From others!


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

I haven't refused her often but when I did she didn't pout, she was fine with it. Although she did bring it up a number of times of an example of when she initiated and I wasn't interested therefore she had made the effort, I just chose not to.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

eagleclaw said:


> I haven't refused her often but when I did she didn't pout, she was fine with it. Although she did bring it up a number of times of an example of when she initiated and I wasn't interested therefore she had made the effort, I just chose not to.


I am not talking about your wife here! 

And it is not only about sex. 

It is about life in general!

I just remembered something from the Bible: After the ring on the finger, her body is not just hers anymore, just like your body is not just yours anymore. Her body is yours, your body is hers. You have to provide for her, she has to satisfy your needs. Too bad that a lot of people don't know that.

There is a lot of wisdom in the Bible, it really teaches what a good woman should be! And it teaches what a good man should do too! Too bad that many people don't want to touch the Bible anymore!


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

eagleclaw said:


> Our frequency has been a problem. Maybe every week and a half to two weeks. I would like it to be 3 times a week or so. So I approach her every two to three days.


I wonder if I am the only one who feels like this...

Not only do I have no idea how many times per week we have sex, the idea of times per week grosses me out. 

Sometimes we blow most people's weekly sex allocation in a single Saturday. Sometimes we go two weeks. Some weeks are f like bunny weeks, and some weeks are busy with other things weeks. Sometimes a single instance of sex is so mind blowing as to leave me dazed for days.

The thing is, for me, the things I do some number of times per week are all maintenance. I poop daily. I do yoga 3 x per week. I do weights or cardio 2 x per week. I shop 2 x per week. I cook freezer meals 1 x per week. 

If my husband says he wants sex x times per week, I wonder how I would respond. 

For me sex is an organic part of moving through the day. Some days the intimacy is limited to drive by touches and smiles as the kids run screaming through the house. Some days intimacy is limited to the hope that we can survive today to see some intimacy tomorrow. And some days we have to send the kids to bed early because we can't keep our hands off.

I know a lot of times the way we describe things on a forum don't fully come across exactly right. OP I am just giving you a sense of what I read and how it feels to me. I have no idea of this input is of any use.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

Your right, I don't like a number either. The only reason it did come up is because when it happens twice in a month as the norm, I know it's not enough for me. A marriage counciller we once saw said 1/week is probably the bear minimium to keep a healthy relationshi p alive. So that is the number she has choses. She has asked and I have said it would be nice to strive for a number closer to two or three a week. Every week being different. I just think the goal of being the bar minimum to keep a marriage alive should be our ultimate goal. I never thrive for bare minimum in my life.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

See geez, some reason even striving for a number gives me the willies.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

It's still all deflection, and from my perspective, and presumably from eagleclaw's it misses the point entirely.

'Getting off' a set number of times per week isn't the goal. Feeling desired and loved is the goal. So the message EC gets, and I got is: "I love you. I love you when you do what I want you to do, but don't expect me to show you that I love you by doing _that_!"

EC summed it up. His wife is completely fixated on what she _has to GIVE of herself_, instead of seeing it as an opportunity to _SHARE love and intimacy with her partner_

My ex constantly used deflection and avoidance. Her retort both to me and in counseling was "Well what's enough? It's like no matter what I do it isn't enough."

My response was, "Enough is enough, and knowing that you are comfortable with wanting to will be enough. I don't have a number."

Our number remained >=0<2.

Sounds like you are handling it well. Unless or until she decides to let go of her mindset that sex equals a win/lose scenario keep doing what your doing, and as MEM suggested work on yourself.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

Thanks Deejo, it's just as you described. Maybe I should tell her I'm not GIVING her sex anymore. If she says something about not wanting it anyways on a given night I'll act releived and say great I don't have to GIVE you sex. Maybe if I reframe it like that for awhile to me giving her sex she'll get the point.

I need some new tools for shock value I think. The beauty for her is if I freeze her out, she never initiates anyways..... so I really don't get much of a chance to freeze her out and return the favour. The sad part is I really don't want to play this game - I just want a loving affectionate relationship. Game -free. 

Definately need some new tools!


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

It's funny, we had a halloween party on halloween (who would have thought) and one of her friends tried to get with me and offered me oral, her friend is hot - and I must admit I was really tempted. I passed this small test - but I know myself.......I'm slowly getting weaker and won't be able to pass this kind of test forever.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

To me, the shock value piece is easy. Just don't be home. Don't go to bed with her. Go out. See your guy friends, go to the movies, work out, shoot pool, play darts, bowl, have a beer.

Stop being around and she will start to feel exactly the kind of anxiety and rejection you feel, only she won't deal with it nearly as rationally as you have.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

I have done not enough of that, but I want to be around for my kids which is the kicker!


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Has all the more impact if you do it after putting the kids to bed, depending upon their age.

I used to go out when she was getting into bed at 10 pm.

The other caveat that I will give you is that this can completely and utterly backfire. Meaning, she may pull even further away, and instead look for someone else - this was my case.

In hindsight, all it did was hasten the eventual outcome, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.


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## BigBadWolf (Nov 30, 2009)

eagleclaw said:


> I brought it up last night that when she refuses a couple of times in a row, then I back off and wait for her to come to me and she makes no effort that it is frustrating and breeds resentment. She got more and more angry as the discussion went on.


My advice on this, stop this type of complaining about sex. At best it will appear to your woman only that you are a whiny complainer (weak=not sexual). Worst, it will build more resent and contempt in the woman.

Talking about sex, it is not effective.

Sexual attraction, it simply does not happen in the same parts of our brains that logic or rational thinking.

Sexual attraction, it is primal, behavior based.

Sexual attraction, it is only going to be effective when communicated in actions and behavior, do not miss this.

I am not making this up, a woman, she is not going to respond positive to negotiation or bartering or intellectualize the number of times for sex. I have never seen this produce positive results.

Far FAR better to initiate, or at least state plainly what you desire and intend to do, and see it through, than any talk or bartering.

And this, is effective when all pieces are in place, of respect and sexual attraction, which will be in place for the good man when he is acting and behaving in the dominant sense, that he is in control of himself and his environment.



> I never yelled and stayed composed and direct through the conversation.


Excellent.



> She got loud, left the room and returned a few times....... threw in a few threats for measure and acted generally like a spoiled brat as in the past.


Simple rule of thumb, when your woman acts like the child, treat her as the child.



> EX: Gave me her wedding ring and said I should hold it and only return it when I want a WIFE rather than a wh0re...


This, this is totally unacceptable.

In your situation, it would be difficult to say how to react.

I know how I would have reacted.

Non the less, this behavior is screaming of lack of respect, and tell tale that she is full to the brim with resentment, and views sex as merely a chore, as a woman will do when there is not respect to her man, and emotional connection and sexual attraction are missing.



> Good times......... I can't help but to think if she has thing strong of a reaction at the very thought, or discussion of being intimate with me that she has some real issues with intimacy, or at least obviously intimacy with me.


Resentment, it has killed her sexual attraction to you, and is either killing or killed her respect to you as well.

To fix this, it must always start by rebuilding respect.



> I've tried the "I'm fine with getting a girlfriend" line in the past and she has said that is my choice to make but we won't be together if that's the road I choose.


She has no problem expressing her limits.

Now, become a master of expressing yours.



> She pointed out all the ways things have been better - and I agreed except I pointed out that without a strong sexual connection we are just really good friends......


Marriage, it is a sexual relatoinship.

Everything else, rises and falls on how the good man and woman maintain sexual attraction.



> She left it with she will guarantee once a week and anything over and above that is a bonus. I told her that's 3 a month.


Even with this guarantee, still, she is maintianing 100 percent control of sex in the relationship.

A woman treating her man in this fashion, she will never respect a man that "agrees" to this, and will quickly resent and hold in contempt this man even to have to give this man sex "once a week".




> I told her I dont' want a guarantee of once a week that she will "GIVE" me sex. I want her to WANT to have that emotional connection herself and WE would be intimate together as often as we desired,


This attitude is appropriate. 

Stand up for it absolutely.




> ideally at least a couple of times a week.


Lose the scheduling. 

Stick with your gut, that sex should be spontaneous and free flowing and bliss, not a tool for negotiation, or gauged for frequency.




> When she talks about "GIVING" sex my hair all stands up because I don't need her to GIVE it to me, I can GET it on my own. I just choose and expect to have that with my wife. She has a screwed up view of intimacy as far as I can tell.


Screwed up, maybe, maybe not.

Unhealthy for the relationship, sure.

But in all this, she is behaving EXACTLY as a woman will, when she is not respecting her man, and is in a relatinship with a man she is not respecting and not sexually attracted to and not emotionally connected to. IN this relatoinship, sex is a chore, at least as far a discussing it with words.



> I'm really tempted to freeze her out for awhile.


As mentioned before, even for one instance to reject her for sex, not out of rage or hostility, but out of calm confidence as a stark consequence to some disrespectful or backhanded behavior on her part (the wh0re comment, for example), would likely go far to show her there is actually another individual with a stake and a say so in the sexual relationship, a man, not a child or a servant, but a good man that has control over himself and his environment.



> Although my guess is she might actually enjoy that


She would "enjoy" it only to the point it relieves her disgust to have to sexually perform for a man that she is not respecting, not emotoinally connected to, or sexually attracted to. If so, there is much more danger to be worried about than sexual frequency, as an affair man is likley just around the corner.

If instead she is serious about the relationship, and merely fitness testing, and some respect somewhere in her mind for her man, then even if at first she may seem to "enjoy it", be sure to a woman, being rejected for sex, is a terrible, terrible blow. 



So I will quickly add this as well, as it came to my mind typing out these other replies, that you need to increase respect on all fronts, so here are some ideas you may find beneficial.

1. Take time for your own hobbies, with or without your woman. 

2. Every now and then, make a small purchase of an item just for yourself, without asking of course. 

3. Actually, in practically every action or behavior of yourself, do not ask for permission to do what you want to do. 

4. In conversations, look for opportunities to challenge your woman. Think of these as the male versions of "fitness test", but without any of the maliciousness or personal cutting. Things like "how did you spend your time today", or "how much did that (item) cost", or "who were you talking to on the phone when I came home". This may sound trivial, but I encourage all men to adopt this attitude and find your own ways to do this, as the man who tries these often for the first time is amazed to see how his woman reacts, when she stops seeing him as a child, and instead as a man that is not afriad to challenge her, or even have the boldness (or nerve, or arrogance, or confidence, whatever you wish to call it) to call her on her actions and behavior. This also goes miles to stopping cold the flow of "fitness tests" from the woman to the man.

5. In conversations, be the one to wrap them up, end them, and say goodbye first. Small thing, big results.


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

eagleclaw said:


> EX: Gave me her wedding ring and said I should hold it and only return it when I want a WIFE rather than a wh0re...


Oh that's both ultra harsh and a very bad sign.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

There is something missing here. If feeling desired and valued is the goal, why wouldn't one state THAT as the goal rather than some number of times per week? 

I suspect I am being dense.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

We have gone long periods and she has been affectionate etc, but no sex life. It's all well and good - but I require a sex life. I have lots of friends, good friends. Some are even affectionate. But I don't sleep with them. I want something more than that.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> There is something missing here. If feeling desired and valued is the goal, why wouldn't one state THAT as the goal rather than some number of times per week?
> 
> I suspect I am being dense.


Can't speak for EC, but I wasn't the one to bring up a number regarding frequency ... she did. I stated that the frequency of intimacy of once or twice a month was insufficient. I was referring to a 'state of being' she was referring to the tally of feeling an obligation.

It's about as basic and catastrophic a breakdown in communication as you can have.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

I wasn't either - the therapist suggested once a week was the bar minimum to keep a marriage on track. So that is what she striving for, the bar minimum. And generally speaking we don't even meet that....... I don't have a real number in mind. I just us both to be into each other, and be spontanous. I'm 39 years old - although I could do it every day I generally don't want to anymore. Not because my drive isn't there, but because I have other interests as well. Although if my wife really wanted it, I would there for her. At least in the past.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

EC, tried your suggestion. Crawled into bed with hubby and started "taking care of myself" and didn't say a word. He just ended up falling asleep (he had been drinking).

So...wonder what that says. All I know is I REFUSE to let it affect my self-esteem, etc. I'm a good person and a loving wife that takes care of her family. I'm going to chalk this up to - brain injury, medical problems and quit (starting today) taking it personally and see what happens. The situation is driving me crazy and I need to back off and look at it with perspective and consider everything involved (his ED issues, medications, brain injury, etc.).

We'll see how long this lasts. Its just sad though because things could be so great. I'm just so angry and resentful that this has happened to us and there's not a damn thing I can do to change it - makes you feel so helpless and out of control.

Thanks for the input.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

MarriedWifeInLove, I hear you. I have some of the same issues without her having any of the medical issues. I would definately try this when he's sober though....... when I'm drinking I have fallen asleep while GETTING oral - and I was into it! LOL.

Can you elaborate on some of these other issues.... brain injury, medications etc?


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

If you look at my other posts, you'll see that my husband suffered a brain injury in 2008 which has left him with memory loss, cognitive issues, speech problems, etc. He has come a long way, but one of the issues has been a sensory issue where part of his "equipment" does not have all sensation it used to. He is on 24 daily medications to control his symptoms from seizures, to BP to mood, to migraine to Plavix. He's been having ED issues from his high BP since around 2004, but they have been made worse from this injury. We've tried all the ED meds, none work at all....so we've looked at other ways to spice things up.

But - he has this "I'm a man, I have to perform, you don't understand" (his words exactly). I can't seem to get him past this and onto keeping our intimacy through other actions.

And I have a high sex drive and while I am more than capable of taking care of myself, I miss that physical connection between us and he has taken an "all or nothing" attitude and of course with his issues - all doesn't work most of the time, so it turns into nothing. And of course it makes me feel unwanted, undesirable, unloved - you name it. And I can't help feeling this way.

But as I said, I'm going to back off and quit putting so much emphasis on it and see if it will work out - I'm just lonely and it gets frustrating!

And he's starting to think that all I care about is sex and not him. But you know - I read somewhere once where someone wrote "sex is like air, you don't know you need it until you don't have any." And I do love him more than just for sex - but I miss that closeness and we are more than capable of using other methods - it doesn't have to be all or nothing. Macho men can drive you crazy sometimes!! 

Thanks for letting me vent.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This is an EXCELLENT post and and excellent topic for discussion. I am going to briefly describe our interaction and frequency as a point of reference. 

Normally we are fairly steady at twice a week which is delightful because when we connect it feels incredible physically AND emotionally. And that frequency is a true middle ground between my somewhat higher drive and her somewhat lower drive. 

The last 2 months though her schedule has been grueling. Work plus a temporary volunteer thing plus the usual kid stuff. So we connected maybe 6-8 times in two months. I EASILY could have doubled the frequency by saying yes on the many nights she offered but was tired. 

We DON'T have a quota - but frankly if she had the schedule that EC's wife does and was in a 2/month mode that would not be acceptable to me because it would show a lack of consideration for what I want. 

We do argue about sex on occasion. And the arguments are all inverted. She is saying we "should" because it has been X days - actually she is comical and will say "it has been months" I don't want to be one of "THOSE wives" and she puts heavy emphasis on the word "THOSE" because she views a sexually lazy/inept wife as a bad wife. And I always laugh and tell her she is an A++ wife and deserves a massage and a good nights sleep. 




vthomeschoolmom said:


> I wonder if I am the only one who feels like this...
> 
> Not only do I have no idea how many times per week we have sex, the idea of times per week grosses me out.
> 
> ...


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

Good info MEM, thanks for that. We have had occassions, very few of them where we have done it many times in a week. It can happen. And I have learned about some stressful stuff happening at her work which is bumming her right out - which may explain her recent lack of interest (possibly having to quit her job) , and may explain (although not make it right) how I might have been the straw that broke the camels back with this.

We have been "negotiating" or discussing our issues since the other night and were not finding common ground. But with this other stuff going on she was upset and crying so I told her to put this other stuff aside for right now so we can deal with this immenent problem, gave her a hug and was her sounding board to try and find a solution. She seemed thankful for that and a little affectionate this morning becore going to work ( a kiss - we haven't been at all).

So, not that her actions were warrented or acceptable in any way - but now that I know what else was going on in her head at this point I think I know how we got there.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

Married Wife,

I think you need to follow MEM and BBW advice as well. His actions are not respectful, compassionate or reasonable on any level. I have been out of commission at times but I was always there for my wife anyways. You may need to try shock value with him - because if you let this continue, it will definately continue. Deejo touched on this as well. Make him less of a priority, start doing your hobbies and become unavailable. Talk to the other sex...... make him a little worried without crossing the line. If he doesn't respond, he doesn't care that much. And if doesn't care that much you have some very real decisions to make. That's my take on this.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

A quick update.

If you remember she had given her wedding ring back to me with the comment "return it when you want a wife instead of a wh0re" plus had a the crazy once a week deal she wanted me to accept by the following Sunday.

Well I had forgotten about the ring and it's still put away in my drawer - she hasn't asked about it.

I never accepted - held my position that I wanted a spontaneious free flowing sex life, not a scheduled form of duty sex. 

So sunday came and went and I have heard nothing more out of her about this. She has warmed up and as far as I can tell has moved on and given up on this. 

I haven't really pursued her for sex at all. And still have her ring. Anyone who has followed this thread..... have an opinion on the ring? When we were first married during a fight she threw her ring at me and I held it for 6 months before returning it. What should I do this time? Hold it, just return it to her desk and say nothing? Wait for her to ask about it? (I haven't worn mine for a year or more as it wore through and I haven't gotten it fixed yet)


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

I should point out also that whe just returned from a business trip, and has been on her period for the last week which is part of the reason we haven't been very intimate. (although she gave me oral before leaving for her trip)


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## BigBadWolf (Nov 30, 2009)

Do not ignore it.

The best answer, deal with it exactly as you wish, as long as whatever happens, your composure is calm, confident, and in control.

FOr example, if it was myself, I would take out the ring to show my wife, and with a big smile ask her to explain the difference between a wife and a wh0re.

Regardless of her answer, let her speak and listen intently, repeat some aspect of her answer back to her to show her you are listening and understand what she is saying.

If her answer is acceptable, kindly ask her for her hand, and place the ring back on it's rightful place.

If she gets unreasonable, or throws a tantrum, calmly put ring back in pocket and go about your business until some other time.

Again, this just an example, but notice to keep calm and control, a little humor, and give your woman opportunity to share her side in doing all this.

I wish you well.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

This one's easy. 

Ask her what her choice is.
She obviously doesn't give a sh!t about the ring. If you approach the subject in terms of feeling hurt that she isn't wearing it - you lose.

Given that you haven't taken the time to get your own ring fixed, it can't be all of that big a deal to you. If you want to make a statement, have your ring repaired and start wearing it without mentioning hers.

How are you feeling overall? Still feel like you're walking around on eggshells?


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

Feeling pretty good really. Were in an O.K. place. I wouldn't say things are exceptional but there fair to good. She just came off her period, a business trip, and now has a a good cold so it's hard to see how things are going to be right now - although they are civil.

I have been doing what I want, and planning and exceuting things with my kids and generally extend and invite but follow through weather she joins or not. 

Also any time she is unreasonable or has an unrealistic expectation I flat out dismiss it and move on.

My brother just suprised me with Bon Jovi tickets for next march. I told her about it to share my excitment and she was slightly irritated that I hadn't talked to her about it first. I calmly told her that that's how suprises work, I didn't know about it unil I did. And I don't need her permission to do something like that. Especially since she has had a few trips recently with her sisters. Another sh!t test.

I'm not even discussing it with her, I told her I was going and have been working on the details. She had dropped it and is moving on. I didn't show much emotion regarding her sh!t test regarding it but I do find it offensive. I'm now thinking of staying for the weekend instead of just the one night out of town - just because.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

Man you guys have great ideas. I liken this to when you struggle to solve a problem over and over and just can't see the forest for the trees, then someone comes in and at a glance see's the answer. Makes you wonder why you didn't see the obvious yourself right from the start. Mind you occasionally, I have caught myself reaching for the calculator to add to numbers together than I can easily do in my head!


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Everyone's a star when it comes to armchair quarterbacking.

Just keep the input in perspective. You got feedback from a guy who has been married and maintains an intimate relationship with his wife after 20 years, and a recovering Nice Guy whose marriage tanked in less than a decade. (Learning from his mistakes )

Regardless, the more comfortable and confident you are with your behavior - the better served both you and your marriage will be.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

Eagleclaw .... I feel your pain. I am in the same boat as you, just a little further down the stream. Hopefully you can steer better than I have. I am 47, been married 22 years. 

I have spent the last 22 years being a suck up. I thought I was being a good husband and a good partner, but I now know that I was being a doormat. 

Most of my days are now spent being scared. Scared that when I come home she will be grumpy. Scared that if I hug her, she will push me away. Scared that if I don't hug her, we will have no affection/relationship. I lie in bed beside her at night scared of reaching out to her because there is a 90% chance she will reject me. Scared to tell her what went on during the day, because she will criticize how I handled something. Scared to give the kids heck for something and scared not to.

I sound like a loser. But I wasn't always this way and I am not a loser anywhere other than my home. I was a very good athlete and captain of many teams including a volleyball team in college. I graduated from high school and college with honors. I have a successful business and am well liked and respected by colleagues. When I go out, I am the life of the party and nobody would believe the way I am in my own home (Except for my children that see how things are). Nobody would believe my wife is the way she is at home either.

I have reached my limit of being scared. For the past 2 weeks I have moved to the guest room. I know that if I was to stay in bed with her, I would be too weak to not reach out to her. I haven't spoken with her and she hasn't spoken with me. This was after three weeks of approaching her and getting rejected and having an argument. Nothing different than what we have been doing for many years.

But I must have reached a limit. I am no longer going to put myself in a place where I am going to be rejected. We have had many fights over the years and it usually starts as me trying to get affection/sex. Goes to where we aren't very nice to each other. Ends with me approaching her. Apologizing for the things I said that weren't too nice. She may eventually admit that she is also to blame because of being so cold to me. She has never once been the one to come to me, to reach out to me.

I really have no idea what is going to happen. She started out not caring that I moved to the guest room. The last couple of days she has shown that she is angry. Not sure if that is a good sign or not. I don't expect her to come to me and I am trying not to reach out to her. I feel like it is over.


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