# When Wives Fall Out of Love...



## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

From This Thread, why do wives wait so long, until the marriage is on life support, to say anything? This seems to happen a lot and all the husband knows is that he's not getting sex and no idea why. Is it a case of they just think things will get better eventually on their own? Is it a case of she thinks he knows she fell out of love? Is it a case of she just thinks he should automatically know what's wrong?


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

It was the opposite here. I did think it would get better on its own--- until the night he said he was moving out. 

But we rebuilt (no infidelity, just a lot of garbage to work on) and I got therapy for my issues and he wrestled a ton of baggage. Now it's been a year (in a week!) and we're doing great.

I don't know why we waited until our relationship was practically dead...but...it's better than it dying completely.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

Can only speak for myself here.


> why do wives wait so long, until the marriage is on life support, to say anything? This seems to happen a lot and all the husband knows is that he's not getting sex and no idea why.


Not trying to pick a fight with you men, but it REALLY strains the limits of credulity to believe that most men don't have ANY IDEA how p*ssed off their wives are; how angry, how hurt, how frustrated. I don't know, maybe guys just want to believe 'she's just on the rag' 'it's that time of the month' because THEN they don't have to actually worry about what the real problem is or acknowledge that there IS a problem. Believing that she's just being hormonal is the path of least resistance. I can't do anything about her hormones, therefore I can't do anything about her b*tchiness/moodiness/unhappiness.



> Is it a case of they just think things will get better eventually on their own?


No, I believe it's a case of they (the wives) believe that if they just hang in there long enough they'll be able to just suck it up and keep taking it no matter HOW unhappy they are. All women I've ever met b*tch about their men. So, when you're unhappy in your marriage you just figure 'that's the way it is...deal with it.' You figure you're no more unhappy [barring cheating, abuse or addiction, etc.] than your mother or your sisters or your friends. If everyone else is b*tching and whining and still HANGING IN THERE, you can do it, too! So the wives keep plugging away at the things that HAVE to get done (kids, cooking, chores, work, etc.) and just keep hoping that they'll be able to move past the anger and just shrug it all off at some point in the not-too-distant future (or, if we're being REAL honest, that maybe he'll die and she won't have to put up with his cr*p for any longer.)



> Is it a case of she thinks he knows she fell out of love? Is it a case of she just thinks he should automatically know what's wrong?


It's a case of she thinks he doesn't give a sh*t about whether they're in love, or what's wrong, or anything else. She feels that the fact that she's felt hurt/neglected/misunderstood/undervalued/dismissed WHATEVER for so many years is PROOF that he doesn't give a cr*p...or he would have (a) changed his behavior when she asked him (whether she asked him a few times or a lot wouldn't matter...she'd think asking him ONCE should have been enough if he valued her feelings), (b) have actively sought out the reason for her unhappiness so he/they could fix it, or (c) should feel things the same way she does so he would KNOW what's wrong.

Many wives never say anything and are MISERABLE for YEARS (and I'm sure their husbands are miserable as well). They have been brought up to believe that divorce is WRONG (that you didn't try hard enough, or you made your bed now lie in it, or you're going to hell). Other wives may be loathe to get a divorce for fear of how it will impact minor children. Others may be loathe to get a divorce if they've already had one because they don't want to see themselves as a "2-time loser" or "3-time loser".

These wives have given up any hope of achieving change or intimacy or connectedness with their spouse because they see him as unwilling to change (if you ask them, they will say they told him NUMEROUS times about x, y, z. Hard to say if it's true or not, but that would be the wife's perception.) They have given up and are really biding their time until the grave. (Sad, but true.) Sometimes an event will occur that triggers in them a need to change the status quo -- social strictures and threats of hell be damned. Something so momentus (to them) happens and they realize they're p*ssing their lives away and they're NEVER gonna get another chance at this life. So they finally get the cajones up to say "I want out." At that point, you're right, Drover, there IS no turning back for those wives. They are taking a chance on having a SHOT at a happier life. They KNOW there might not be another man in their future, but there is HOPE and THAT is better than the emotional coma they've been living in for years.

Just my 2 cents for what it's worth. I would love to hear other people's (respectful) opinions.


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## Upanddown (Sep 14, 2012)

Me too i know we argued and ive made mistakes but i seem like i got side swiped and now im on eggshells waiting to be pushed.

I would have got counselling earlier and done marriage counselling together to get it right and on track

I still dont know exactly what it is she is looking for, i feel like there is a big wall there


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

Wow, wonderfully powerful stuff there, and very revealing. I'm going to respond to some of this, and like you hope you'll take my response as respectful as that's how it's meant. 

I find it very interesting the language you use especially about straining the limits of credulity. Reading threads here again and again, and looking at my own experience I really had no idea where my wife was, and most men don't. We really don't understand. 

I think a lot of it has to do with the way in which many women go about asking for the changes. They don't do it directly, or in a way in which men understand which issues are really important to them. When women start getting angry with their men, they seem to develop an overall anger that spreads to many things. The "b*tching" isn't just about what's making them angry. It spreads so they're complaining and, in his view, picking fights about everything so that their man doesn't know what the real problem is.

So for awhile he tries to figure it out, but honestly we're just unprepared for it. We don't understand and don't know how to fix it AND it's a great source of SHAME for us, so yes we try to avoid dealing or thinking about it. So like you, we tend to just try to hold our breaths and wait it out.

And usually early in this cycle, the vagina gets turned off, so we lose our real emotional connection with her. We feel like she's just punishing us. We get resentful, sullen, moody, irritated, passive aggressive, etc. and is less attractive. And it crushes his confidence. 

And once we're rejected enough times, we stop trying because it's an incredible source of shame that we'll do anything to avoid. It's not loss of interest but avoiding the shame becomes more important than getting the sex. And eventually, we turn off our interest because even having the desire and not being able to get it fulfilled from the woman we feel like should really care about our needs because she professes to love us becomes a source of shame.

For a man, sex is the great connector. It's where he both gives and feels loved. So when you cut off sex because he didn't take the trash out, he feels like your priorities are completely skewed and the resentment builds.

Highlighted the parts of this that actually are responses to the question posed. And that's really very sad, especially given that really men and women want the same thing...just to love and be loved, to have joy and fulfillment in their marriage.



SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> Can only speak for myself here.
> Not trying to pick a fight with you men, but *it REALLY strains the limits of credulity to believe that most men don't have ANY IDEA how p*ssed off their wives are; how angry, how hurt, how frustrated.* I don't know, maybe guys just want to believe 'she's just on the rag' 'it's that time of the month' because THEN they don't have to actually worry about what the real problem is or acknowledge that there IS a problem. Believing that she's just being hormonal is the path of least resistance. I can't do anything about her hormones, therefore I can't do anything about her b*tchiness/moodiness/unhappiness.
> 
> No, I believe it's a case of they (the wives) believe that if they just hang in there long enough they'll be able to just suck it up and keep taking it no matter HOW unhappy they are. All women I've ever met b*tch about their men. So, when you're unhappy in your marriage *you just figure 'that's the way it is...deal with it.'* You figure you're no more unhappy [barring cheating, abuse or addiction, etc.] than your mother or your sisters or your friends. If everyone else is b*tching and whining and still HANGING IN THERE, you can do it, too! So the wives keep plugging away at the things that HAVE to get done (kids, cooking, chores, work, etc.) and just keep hoping that they'll be able to move past the anger and just shrug it all off at some point in the not-too-distant future (or, if we're being REAL honest, that maybe he'll die and she won't have to put up with his cr*p for any longer.)
> ...


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## Upanddown (Sep 14, 2012)

Drover agree

Sex is a connector and makes me feel loved especially after where we just spoon together


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## waiwera (Sep 8, 2009)

Drover - several of my female family/friends have ended marriages in the past few years.
By the time they said the words " I want a divorce" they had talked and talked with their H's, they had done the counselling and the date nights but yet still felt disconnected and very unhappy. 

In one of the cases the guy is the one with holding the sex and affection. He also sulks and stones walls...very unattractive and difficult to communicate with him.... he's been like this for years and she has told him many times she can't live this way forever. Their kids are now all grown and off to college and flatting and she wants a divorce and he's all shocked! Can't believe where this has come from! She must be mad or menopausal he's telling everyone!

I don't believe in many marriages it is a quick or easy decision, I know for a fact it wasn't in any of the families in our circle.. 

But yes by the time the wife say's "divorce" they have fully disengaged and switched off and it's too late. 

So I think sometimes the words *are* being spoken... there just not being heard?? or understood?? or taken seriously?? Or something??

I also agree about the sex being a connector...even though i'm female... I'm very physical and HD. Lack of sex and the kisses and cuddles and affection that come with it would make it hugely difficult for me to stay connected and feeling loving to wards my man. .


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## Hellioness (Jul 6, 2012)

For me it was a feeling of guilt. I waited forever to end things with my ex husband because I felt guilty for wanting a divorce. I didn't feel I had done/was willing to do enough to fix the issues and the guilt just ate me up inside. I still feel guilty about it honestly, and even after I KNEW without a doubt that I was no longer in love with him (I honestly question if I ever was), I couldn't bring myself to end it and hurt his feelings because of the guilt that came with it.

Some days I look back and see how much of myself I changed and how many things I didn't want to do but eventually did out of guilt and honestly it depresses me deeply. I've always been very prone to guilt though and end up doing things I am against simply because I feel guilty saying no.


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## rkyfat (Feb 13, 2012)

Hi all, 

this thread caught my eye as someone who is goign through seperation with W for the same/similar reasons.

My own take (for what it's worth) is that in the early years men (myself) have their priorities mixed up. In my case being the breadwinner, a good father etc was my way of showing how I wanted to look after our family. W used to hold me on a pedestal (succesful at work, good father, good sex life etc) and things were great. Then the mid married years kicked in and normality, both taking each other for granted, neglecting our relationship.

I feel that there were signs but never clear. W would complain about more support with housework etc. I would acknowledge and make a bigger effort.

We always had a good sex life, longest without was about 2 weeks in 13 years.

What I never realised was that W complaining about help with housework was not about me doing more, it was about me appreciating what she was doing more at home whilst I was at work. This made her feel unappreciated, like I did not love her, and the routine of day to day life and our neglect of our own relationship meant that on the outside we were a great couple. Inside there were serious issues with W where I had completely missed the signs.

Obviously since seperating I have looked back at all of this, kicked myself and am now trying to move on and be a better person for it. 

I think the signs are there - trouble is me(men) did not know how to look.

All married men and women should read forums like this to ensure the signs are not missed. Obviously I will never miss them again if I do somehow get another chance. Trouble is, we usually come here when we have missed the signs and it is too late.

W has apologised that she felt she could have done more to communicate to me how she felt. She hid her feelings behind issues with housework etc. If i had have realised then perhaps it could have been different.

Interesting topic though


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Together 42 years, separated when wife was 58 and me 60.

For me with my wife it was duplicity. She was with me yet didn’t want to be with me. Kind of half in and half out of the marriage. It’s very two faced behaviour, I discovered a lot more after we’d separated. It was fraudulent behaviour, she deceived me and I felt immensely betrayed.


I think some women just don’t have the balls to go it alone and so they use their husband as a Plan B until something better comes along. They do “just enough” and no more to “keep him onside”. There’s one here who’s been planning on leaving her husband for the past 20 years, or so she says anyway. I just don’t get that sort of thing.


The really strange thing is that my wife was broken hearted after we’d separated, couldn’t hold down a job that sort of thing. I think what happened was that it wasn’t until she’d actually lost me that she realised what she had in me and with me and that she did in fact love me and was in love with me. But in and amongst all her resentment she’d totally lost sight of and got out of touch with her love for me.


To answer your question she never did say anything was wrong. I of course asked her at times as even men have some intuition but she kept her silence. Which I think is all part of her duplicit behaviour. We separated because I discovered her in a deceit for which I knew the truth but she wouldn’t give me it, instead she just kept lying to me, stonewalling and scapegoating.


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## Anomnom (Jun 25, 2012)

Drover said:


> From This Thread, why do wives wait so long, until the marriage is on life support, to say anything? This seems to happen a lot and all the husband knows is that he's not getting sex and no idea why.


I think you'll find that almost 100% of women who have come to the point of saying 'I want a divorce' have been telling their husbands for years that there are problems in the relationship and he has never acknowledged the full extent of how serious the accumulated issues are. 

Personally, I have been telling my husband for years that we have problems, I've gone to marriage counselling on my own because he openly tells me that we have a great marriage so he doesn't need to go. It's hard for me to comprehend that if his wife has a problem, that he doesn't think it's also his problem :scratchhead: 

I am never cryptic about my feelings about our relationship. I very clearly say things like "this is why you need to come to counselling with me... or ..I will eventually leave you if you don't help me deal with this"..if that is not being clear I don't know what is. 

He will be one of those many many men who are 'blindsided' by the ever so sudden announcement that I want to seperate because in his mind he has a perfect marriage. He just doesn't listen. He doesn't acknowledge. It is endlessly frustrating to me knowing that we could build a stronger marriage if he at least acknowledged our issues but instead all he's doing is killing it.


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

Reading through some of these, the interesting thing to me is how the women think they've been very clear about the fact that they're unhappy while the men remain completely unaware. Seems to be a serious gap between the way women communicate and men understand.

I know in my own case, I just thought she had just become LD and that she was perfectly happy to just be w/o sex. Years later when we're finally talking and fixing things, she's saying no she wanted sex but felt I was unavailable. I'm saying unavailable? How was I unavailable all those nights you were rejecting my sexual advances? I think a lot of revisionist history tends to take place on the part of both the man & woman on these things.


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## rj700 (Jun 22, 2012)

AFEH, I haven't gone back to read your threads but there is a ringing in my head in reading the above. She says she's happy and I want to believe her. I also don't want to push the issue cause I know there are things that I need to work on/fix with myself. I am making concerted efforts there and she has definitely responded to that. I don't want to derail this thread, so perhaps I'll start another one.

One thing that comes to mind is the concept of momentum. Things at rest tend to stay at rest. I think this is particularly true if most things in the marriage are good. The other thing is that the vast majority of people are resistant to change. Aside from the initial whirlwind of a romance, things happen slowly in a relationship. It becomes obvious looking back, but not in the midst of it.

The last thing is probably fear. Fear of failure as well as fear of the unknown. These are all things that tend to keep people moving on instead of moving forward.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

Very interesting thread. I guess the most important thing *I* will take away from this is the fact that I must always be CRYSTAL CLEAR about what is p*ssing me off. Tell it to him in VERY straightforward language and NOT bring in other ADDITIONAL problems at the same time that are p*ssing me off as it appears to just muddy the waters.

I also hope to communicate this CLEARLY to my teen-age daughter - be straightforward in your complaints or requests for changes in behavior from others. Address one issue at a time so the importance of your request is not lost in a waterfall of complaints and griping. Explain clearly HOW it is making you feel (disrespected, unimportant, dismissed, stupid) when he behaves in such a way so HE can hear the actual impact of his behavior on you and, therefore, the relationship.

I don't know what to say about the sexual aspect of it. Men & women approach sex from such polar opposite positions. Men MUST HAVE SEX to feel connected. Women MUST FEEL CONNECTED to want sex. Cart before horse? Egg vs. chicken? How do you overcome this? It is easy to say 'fake it till you make it', but asking a woman to engage in sexual activity when she doesn't WANT TO is very demeaning and induces a LOT of anger. I just don't know WHAT the solution to this problem would be.

Maybe the fathers here can teach their sons to LISTEN CAREFULLY to what their girlfriends/wives tell them. Teach them to start asking MORE CAREFULLY what it is their wife/girlfriend wants..."Honey, I know you're angry/upset; please tell me JUST ONE BEHAVIOR that I can work on IMMEDIATELY that will help this situation." If she starts listing a bunch of stuff and going all spaz, call her on it. Tell her 'I AM willing to change, I AM willing to try and make us BOTH happy, but you have to help me by being CLEAR about what you want, being REALISTIC in not expecting me to change EVERYTHING about my behavior in 3 days!'

I will go back and read this thread frequently because all of the talk of shame was a TOTAL SURPRISE to me. I think a LOT of women see men as full of bravado and the fact that so much behavior is shame-driven is a shock to us (well, to ME at least!)

I think this thead has also helped me to realize that in my next relationship, I need to do less b*tching to my daughter, my mother, my sister, my girlfriends. I don't want my daughter to believe that EVERY woman (who isn't a newlywed) is miserable and she'll be there one day, too. Too depressing.

I think a lot of women DON'T LIKE TO ARGUE so they'd rather sit on their resentment 80% of the time and let it fester inside just to 'keep peace' in the house. Just like a pressure cooker, at some point it's going to explode and the guy is wondering WHY she's so p*ssed off while she's been SILENTLY SEETHING for weeks/months/years?

Guess there are plenty of lessons here for EVERYONE to take with them. Thanks, everybody, for giving me plenty to think about!


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> Not trying to pick a fight with you men, but it REALLY strains the limits of credulity to believe that most men don't have ANY IDEA how p*ssed off their wives are; how angry, how hurt, how frustrated. I don't know, maybe guys just want to believe 'she's just on the rag' 'it's that time of the month' because THEN they don't have to actually worry about what the real problem is or acknowledge that there IS a problem. Believing that she's just being hormonal is the path of least resistance. I can't do anything about her hormones, therefore I can't do anything about her b*tchiness/moodiness/unhappiness.


I think it's because women think that b*tching and nagging is the same as expressing your concerns in a well thought out, specific manner.

Guys don't talk to guys like this. Our brains are not wired for it. If Bob is pissed at Jerry, he doesn't complain about how Jerry "never does anything right" or "why can't you just pick up once in a while?" Bob would say something like, "Jerry you're being a douche, knock it off."

When a woman complains or nags, guys think she has a specific problem with whatever she is complaining about. Unless she says specifically, "The lack of <xyz> is really bothering me and it's reducing my feelings for you and making me not enjoy our marriage, and it's really serious." Then the guy will probably not get it.

Now some of us wise up and learn how to understand woman speak, but it's usually not until crap has hit the fan.

Also, I think it's much easier for women to learn how to speak their emotions clearly and specifically instead of trying to teach men how to understand the complex emotions and thought process of a woman.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

Anomnom said:


> I think you'll find that almost 100% of women who have come to the point of saying 'I want a divorce' have been telling their husbands for years that there are problems in the relationship and he has never acknowledged the full extent of how serious the accumulated issues are.
> 
> Personally, I have been telling my husband for years that we have problems, I've gone to marriage counselling on my own because he openly tells me that we have a great marriage so he doesn't need to go. It's hard for me to comprehend that if his wife has a problem, that he doesn't think it's also his problem :scratchhead:
> 
> ...


If I could give you advice:

Fill out the separation papers NOW. Pack your bags, leave the house. Move out for at least a month.

Write a letter about what you expect out of your marriage, and give it to him. Make him commit and show how he's doing those things while you're not living there.

If you do that now, while you still want to be married, you'll see a new man. Otherwise you'll do it in a long time and when he realizes he was an idiot, it'll be too late because you'll be done.

If he doesn't change his act, then you're just wasting your time anyway. But most men "get it" after their wives leave. You're not doing yourself any favors by withering away every day, the likelihood of him just changing are slim to none. He needs to know how serious you are about the leaving part.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

> Also, I think it's much easier for women to learn how to speak their emotions clearly and specifically instead of trying to teach men how to understand the complex emotions and thought process of a woman.


COGuy: OF COURSE it's MUCH EASIER for women to change, but it's MUCH MORE SATISFYING if BOTH change


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## Shiksa (Mar 2, 2012)

I too am very clear when I'm pissed. I don't yell, or nag. I state simply: when you do this I feel this. Or when he would spend money we don't have I would calmly state since you spent $500 on cds this month how would you feel if I spent $500 on shoes, all black. One pair arriving each day of the week. I ask would it make him upset. Even though he would state yes, he would continue to spend to make himself feel better. I went back to work to help pay bills. Finally, it took me yelling/crying that I'm working my a** off JUST to fund your addition. Every penny I made just went to his spending. Meanwhile I was also doing the duties of a SAHM. It took almost slapping him in the face to get his attention. At the same time I kept telling him I need intimacy. I'll try was the answer I got. I kept explaining WHY I needed intimacy and how the lack of made me feel. No nagging, just stating facts without an accusatory tone. It again took me foaming at the mouth to get his attention to the severity of the problem. I guess trying to gently state the problem at hand and how I feel doesn't work with my H. In my case I believe its rugsweeping. He minimizes what I'm upset about. I think it is too hard to change and acknowledge the problem.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

Anomnom said:


> I think you'll find that almost 100% of women who have come to the point of saying 'I want a divorce' have been telling their husbands for years that there are problems in the relationship and he has never acknowledged the full extent of how serious the accumulated issues are.


Agree.

Short of putting up a billboard or flying a banner over an NFL stadium, I told him for YEARS 1,965,675 times that his bad temper, severe anger issues, verbal & emotional abuse & controlling ways WILL end the marriage.

The marriage counselor told him as well.

Frankly, he did not listen.

My mistake was "enabling" his behavior by staying with him for so long.

He claimed he was "shocked" when I walked.

I think he was. He lost 50 lbs.

Sad really. We have 2 grown daughters. We could have grown old together enjoying our grandchildren together.


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## mule kick (Apr 10, 2012)

Going from my own experience, my walk away wife did seem cold and distant the last year of our marriage. I did the things that I thought were right, flowers and cards appreciation and staying off her back about things, making sure the laundry was done myself, saying over and over that I really appreciate what she does in the house and for our family... I suppose I could have done more but short of becoming her personal servant I don't think it would've changed anything and even then as is stated over and over here all it would have done is cause a loss of respect and eventually ended in divorce anyway. 

The reason I don't think I could have saved my marriage at all is because she has this new boyfriend. He's a real incredible loser. I don't know how much he helps with the housework but that surely can't make up for the fact that they live in a shack now because he can't keep a job, he's a control freak constantly hounding her when she doesn't immediately respond to texts, she can't go out alone or even with her children because he's paranoid she might cheat or something. Total stalker with nothing to really offer to the relationship himself. The reality is that because she feels some romantic pull to him, she is willing to overlook all the bs and he can walk all over her.

I couldn't have stuffed those feelings back in her for me if I tried any harder. I couldn't do anything right for her. Just me being me was too much.


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

COguy said:


> When a woman complains or nags, guys think she has a specific problem with whatever she is complaining about. Unless she says specifically, "The lack of <xyz> is really bothering me and it's reducing my feelings for you and making me not enjoy our marriage, and it's really serious." Then the guy will probably not get it.


I'm sure sometimes they say things like this, but in many cases including my own, she was saying, "Why don't you ever <x>? You never <y>. When are you going to <z>?" 

And she never said, "The lack of <xyz> is really bothering me and it's reducing my feelings for you and making me not enjoy our marriage, and it's really serious." If she had said that, I probably would have gotten it and done something. I don't even know if she thought about it in those terms. It probably sneaked up on her little by little. 

To me x, y and z were all little issues and I just thought, no bog deal. Her making a big deal out of x, y and z was her just being b*tchy.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Drover said:


> From This Thread, why do wives wait so long, until the marriage is on life support, to say anything? This seems to happen a lot and all the husband knows is that he's not getting sex and no idea why. Is it a case of they just think things will get better eventually on their own? Is it a case of she thinks he knows she fell out of love? Is it a case of she just thinks he should automatically know what's wrong?


It's presumptuous to assume all wives "wait until the marriage is on life support." In my own story, I had been telling my exH for a LONG time that I was very concerned for the state of our marriage and asked him to go to marriage counselling repeatedly for about a year. He did not want to.


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> Very interesting thread. I guess the most important thing *I* will take away from this is the fact that I must always be CRYSTAL CLEAR about what is p*ssing me off. Tell it to him in VERY straightforward language and NOT bring in other ADDITIONAL problems at the same time that are p*ssing me off as it appears to just muddy the waters.


You get it!



> I also hope to communicate this CLEARLY to my teen-age daughter - be straightforward in your complaints or requests for changes in behavior from others.


This is really a big deal and something I've been thinking about a lot lately. What things in my childhood have driven my behavior in my adult relationships and how to make sure my children don't make the same mistakes. I think about the things I've been telling my son, and although intentions were the best, I think a number of them were just things I was told as a child that were not helpful to me as an adult.


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> It's presumptuous to assume all wives "wait until the marriage is on life support." In my own story, I had been telling my exH for a LONG time that I was very concerned for the state of our marriage and asked him to go to marriage counselling repeatedly for about a year. He did not want to.


I said it happens a lot, not in all cases. But, yes, I think often wives think they're very clear in communicating these things but are obiously not speaking in a language their husbands understand.

For instance the marriage counseling that gets brought up. Do you really think if he thought his marriage was on life support and MC was the only thing to help it, that he wouldn't go? Of course he would.

But often I think the MC gets brought up in the middle of nagging about why he never remembers to take the trash out or something else like that so he doesn't take it seriously. He figures the trash issue is what she's really mad about and he'll remember next week and it will all blow over.

Not saying that's your experience, but maybe we could hear from more husbands about why they didn't take her seriously or why they refused counseling. I think in many cases is they view the counseling with shame and it makes them feel like a failure?


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## Cindy7271 (Sep 16, 2012)

lol...I've tried it ALL in my marriage...started the way you mentioned, just being "mad" in general. Now that I've become more specific, it's my my marriage worse! He feels like everything he does is not enough...and, "anything else thats wrong with me"? So very annoying...SO, now I say NOTHING! It starts more crap then I'm willing to listen to at this point. If I hurt his "ego", it makes my life MORE hellish then it already is.


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

Cindy7271 said:


> lol...I've tried it ALL in my marriage...started the way you mentioned, just being "mad" in general. Now that I've become more specific, it's my my marriage worse! He feels like everything he does is not enough...and, "anything else thats wrong with me"? So very annoying...SO, now I say NOTHING! It starts more crap then I'm willing to listen to at this point. If I hurt his "ego", it makes my life MORE hellish then it already is.


Does he really do that many things wrong? Of course you can't jump all over every thing he does and expect him to feel good about it. Maybe you're being hypercritical? Maybe you're making an issue out of things that don't really matter? Pick your battles. Bring up the things that are most important to you, and let him do the rest his way or do them yourself.

My wife and I BOTH did this for years. We criticized each other constantly and it caused a lot of resentment. It's not that hard to just start accepting the person you love won't do everything you want or do it the way you want. And when you accept that everyone will be more happy.


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## barbiegirl (Aug 18, 2012)

that_girl said:


> It was the opposite here. I did think it would get better on its own--- until the night he said he was moving out.
> 
> But we rebuilt (no infidelity, just a lot of garbage to work on) and I got therapy for my issues and he wrestled a ton of baggage. Now it's been a year (in a week!) and we're doing great.
> 
> I don't know why we waited until our relationship was practically dead...but...it's better than it dying completely.


Feels good to read this!! because my marrage is going threw this right now!!
no sex from him..no romance just basic boring ness seems like hes fallin outta love BUT when and if i ask..he says no that he loves me and doesnt want a divorce when i tell him our marriage is falling apart he just doest seem to care or he gets angry when i want to talk about it! feels good to see that you and ur marriage got worked out i miss the love and compassion that was there 4 years ago


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

Shiksa said:


> I too am very clear when I'm pissed. I don't yell, or nag. I state simply: when you do this I feel this. Or when he would spend money we don't have I would calmly state since you spent $500 on cds this month how would you feel if I spent $500 on shoes, all black. One pair arriving each day of the week. I ask would it make him upset. Even though he would state yes, he would continue to spend to make himself feel better. I went back to work to help pay bills. Finally, it took me yelling/crying that I'm working my a** off JUST to fund your addition. Every penny I made just went to his spending. Meanwhile I was also doing the duties of a SAHM. It took almost slapping him in the face to get his attention. At the same time I kept telling him I need intimacy. I'll try was the answer I got. I kept explaining WHY I needed intimacy and how the lack of made me feel. No nagging, just stating facts without an accusatory tone. It again took me foaming at the mouth to get his attention to the severity of the problem. I guess trying to gently state the problem at hand and how I feel doesn't work with my H. In my case I believe its rugsweeping. He minimizes what I'm upset about. I think it is too hard to change and acknowledge the problem.


Wait! I assume by your name he's Jewish and you're not? And he's the one spending all the money?


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Drover said:


> For instance the marriage counseling that gets brought up. Do you really think if he thought his marriage was on life support and MC was the only thing to help it, that he wouldn't go? Of course he would.


It's simple: when one partner is voicing concerns for the state of the relationship and the other partner continually and repeatedly chooses to ignore them, the ignoring partner does not care enough to meet them halfway or to make an effort.

And that really says it all. 

The unwillingness to meet a partner's needs/cries for help is a huge indication that someone simply person does not care enough to. 

At that point, it's a one-sided effort and that's really a shame. People get fed up after awhile. And after voicing this so many times they realize, nothing is going to change, my partner doesn't care enough to even listen to me/hear me out/put forth an effort. So people realize that their partner does not value them/their concerns.

So then you hear "X left me and yes, he/she had been telling me for a long time that something was wrong/wanted help and I didn't take them seriously."

Well they should have taken their partner more seriously.

My exH told me he will always regret for the rest of his life that he didn't try everything/not doing everything to save us, that he knew he kept dismissing me.


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

barbiegirl said:


> i tell him our marriage is falling apart he just doest seem to care or he gets angry when i want to talk about it!


When you tell him that, you're basically telling him he's a failure in the most important thing in his life. Shame avoidance is huge for men. Of course he'll do almost anything to avoid that conversation when it's framed that way. And he probably just tries harder at doing the wrong things trying to fix it.


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

You're really missing the point. What you see as you voicing a clear "cry for help" is NOT heard that way by him. You were saying, "our marriage is in trouble." He was hearing, "she wants me to remember to take the trash out." 

It's not that he doesn't care or that he's not listening. It's that you're not communicating in a way he understands.



Jellybeans said:


> It's simple: when one partner is voicing concerns for teh state of the relationship and the other partner continually and repeatedly chooses to ignore them, the ignoring partner does not care enough to meet them halfway or to make an effort.
> 
> And that really says it all.
> 
> ...


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## barbiegirl (Aug 18, 2012)

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> Can only speak for myself here.
> Not trying to pick a fight with you men, but it REALLY strains the limits of credulity to believe that most men don't have ANY IDEA how p*ssed off their wives are; how angry, how hurt, how frustrated. I don't know, maybe guys just want to believe 'she's just on the rag' 'it's that time of the month' because THEN they don't have to actually worry about what the real problem is or acknowledge that there IS a problem. Believing that she's just being hormonal is the path of least resistance. I can't do anything about her hormones, therefore I can't do anything about her b*tchiness/moodiness/unhappiness.
> 
> No, I believe it's a case of they (the wives) believe that if they just hang in there long enough they'll be able to just suck it up and keep taking it no matter HOW unhappy they are. All women I've ever met b*tch about their men. So, when you're unhappy in your marriage you just figure 'that's the way it is...deal with it.' You figure you're no more unhappy [barring cheating, abuse or addiction, etc.] than your mother or your sisters or your friends. If everyone else is b*tching and whining and still HANGING IN THERE, you can do it, too! So the wives keep plugging away at the things that HAVE to get done (kids, cooking, chores, work, etc.) and just keep hoping that they'll be able to move past the anger and just shrug it all off at some point in the not-too-distant future (or, if we're being REAL honest, that maybe he'll die and she won't have to put up with his cr*p for any longer.)
> ...





:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:WOW BEING A WIFE IN THIS SITUATION!! I COULDENT HAVE SAID IT ANY BETTER!!!


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Drover said:


> You're really missing the point. What you see as you voicing a clear "cry for help" is NOT heard that way by him. You were saying, "our marriage is in trouble." He was hearing, "she wants me to remember to take the trash out."
> 
> It's not that he doesn't care or that he's not listening. It's that you're not communicating in a way he understands.


No, I am not "missing the point." Perhaps you are failing to see this from another viewpoint. 

And therein the problem lies.

When someone says "our marriage is in trouble" it means exactly that. To equate that to "remember to take out the trash" is grossly irresponsible and assigning a totally different issue to what the issue actually is.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

My exH not only had me telling him about his anger issues (main problem), he had our daughters, his parents & his subordinates at work (he's a CEO). At company dinners, his co-workers would call me a saint.

Believe me, he "heard" it but chose not to do anything about it. Forget speaking his "language." That's a bunch of BS. He speaks English; that is his language.


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

Emerald & Jellybeans, 

Clearly the point I'm making doesn't apply to every man and every marriage. But in the type of case this thread is about, it does.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

COguy said:


> Unless she says specifically, "The lack of <xyz> is really bothering me and it's reducing my feelings for you and making me not enjoy our marriage, and it's really serious." Then the guy will probably not get it


I totally agree with you that people should be crystal clear. 

The problem is that even when someone is crystal clear, and the partner continues to dismiss them. It ain't no good.


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> When someone says "our marriage is in trouble" it means exactly that. To equate that to "remember to take out the trash" is grossly irresponsible and assigning a totally different issue to what the issue actually is.


I'd bet that the vast majority of "our marriage is in trouble"/"we need counseling" statements get made during an argument about something else (like taking out the trash) that he views as minor. And yes, many women use hyperbole when they're angry, so he will view it that way because he has been trained to. When a mountain is made out of a molehill over and over he won't see the real mountain.

But sure. Abut assume you're 100% right and I'm 100% wrong. So why then, do you think so many men choose to be "grossly irresponsible" with the primary relationship in their life, the single most important thing in their lives? Why do you think they intentionally choose to ignore something so important?


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

This is a really good thread. Interesting that so many men feel blindsided when their women feel they've been communicating clearly all along. I wonder how much is miscommunication and how much is revisionist history on both parts too.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

Drover said:


> Emerald & Jellybeans,
> 
> Clearly the point I'm making doesn't apply to every man and every marriage. But in the type of case this thread is about, it does.


I actually just read the thread.

This wife is not being honest. She knows exactly how she feels about her husband & her future plans "alone." She is an intelligent woman who travels for work. 

She simply is not telling him details yet to spare his feelings.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

Drover said:


> This is a really good thread. Interesting that so many men feel blindsided when their women feel they've been communicating clearly all along. I wonder how much is miscommunication and how much is revisionist history on both parts too.


In my case he was "blindsided" because I finally took action on all of the previous empty threats to leave.

You must understand that I am taking 50% responsibility in the demise of my marriage.

When I met him, I had never dealt with anger issues & bad tempers. My parents were lovely & kind. My previous boyfriends were calm & laid back.

My exH lost his temper because I couldn't read a map fast enough on a road trip 3 weeks after dating. I was shocked, but it was a red flag I ignored. However, I really & truly loved him for a very long time.

So you see, I am no victim. I was a willing participant because I stayed with him for 23 years.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Drover said:


> Why do you think they intentionally choose to ignore something so important?


For the same reason that anyone "intentionally" and willfully chooses to ignore something so important: they do not care enough to listen to and take their partner's concerns seriously. It is a choice that they make.


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## Paradise (Dec 16, 2011)

Well, I cannot say I was blindsided when the actual bomb was dropped. What blindsided me was the fact that she was thinking of leaving me 2 years earlier. The last year was crappy and I fought like crazy to try to get her to go to counseling with me but she was already in her affair and had begun to map out her course for leaving. 

I can't blame my ex for leaving. I knew she was unhappy and I began to make changes too late. I also was an idiot and tried to change into something I'm not in order to attempt to make her happy. It just pissed her off even more. 

I look back on those two years as the worst of my life. So confusing. With that being said, I think a lot of problems would be solved if two people could just step away from each other for a while and re-group. I know it would have helped me. Sometimes when the problem(s) hit you in the face you want to act like they just don't exist. Avoid them and they will go away. I did this. Not proud of it but it happened. 

Communication is so important in a marriage. At first everyone is so in love and want to make each other happy. After a while selfishness begins to once again take root and people start taking each other for granted. They quit working on the marriage. 

I don't understand why someone would avoid marriage counseling! Unless they are just done....Good to have a different perspective on things. I would have benefited a lot from this early on in my marriage.


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## Cindy7271 (Sep 16, 2012)

Yes Dover, things are really that bad. I actually hold back things when i talk to him, so I don't hurt his feelings more. He DOES NOT TRY HARD ENOUGH! Works all day...on his cellphone for the evening..has a beer or two. Completly ignores the kids and I. Rarely helps around the house, or with the kids. He's in a fog, and I'm so sick of it. He KNOWS I'm not happy. I'm not sure why he's not making more of an effort..I couldn't answer that. But I do know, that he talks about changing all the time. Talk is cheap. I want action. I'm sick of doing EVERYTHING on my own. Looking after house, kids, appointments for all of us, working on the marriage and getting advice(LIKE RIGHT NOW), couselling on my own...etc...I told him one time, that if he valued his cell phone and those stupid games he plays on it, then he could drill a hole in it and...... well, I'm sure I don't have to finish this sentence. But, lets not forget "he loves me more then anyone EVER"...and "I'm his whole life, and he do anything for me"..."I work so hard, for you baby"...lmao. Why do men think, that they just have to work, come home, eat supper, and lay on the couch..and that's enough? Really? Cause I'm pretty sure, he was there when we had OUR children. I don't expect him to do ANYTHING but play with them, or talk to them. And for more then 30 seconds please! yes, I'm bitter and jaded. lol


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Cindy7271 said:


> Yes Dover, things are really that bad. *I actually hold back things when i talk to him, so I don't hurt his feelings more. * He DOES NOT TRY HARD ENOUGH! Works all day...on his cellphone for the evening..has a beer or two. Completly ignores the kids and I. Rarely helps around the house, or with the kids. He's in a fog, and I'm so sick of it. He KNOWS I'm not happy. I'm not sure why he's not making more of an effort..I couldn't answer that. But I do know, that he talks about changing all the time. Talk is cheap. I want action. I'm sick of doing EVERYTHING on my own. Looking after house, kids, appointments for all of us, working on the marriage and getting advice(LIKE RIGHT NOW), couselling on my own...etc...I told him one time, that if he valued his cell phone and those stupid games he plays on it, then he could drill a hole in it and...... well, I'm sure I don't have to finish this sentence. But, lets not forget "he loves me more then anyone EVER"...and "I'm his whole life, and he do anything for me"..."I work so hard, for you baby"...lmao. Why do men think, that they just have to work, come home, eat supper, and lay on the couch..and that's enough? Really? Cause I'm pretty sure, he was there when we had OUR children. I don't expect him to do ANYTHING but play with them, or talk to them. And for more then 30 seconds please! yes, I'm bitter and jaded. lol


Take advice from one who knows. Don’t *****foot around, don’t pull your punches. Most especially don’t do those things in order to not hurt his feelings. That’s the lamest excuse I ever heard.


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

Emerald, your case is a little different because of the anger issues involved. It wasn't just one of the typical falling out of love with him situations.


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> For the same reason that anyone "intentionally" and willfully chooses to ignore something so important: they do not care enough to listen to and take their partner's concerns seriously. It is a choice that they make.


In most of these cases their marriage is the most important relationship in their lives, maybe the most important thing in their lives. You really believe they just don't care about the thing they consider the most important thing in their lives? That doesn't make sense at all.


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## mule kick (Apr 10, 2012)

I should suggest here that not all people are really capable of remaining married forever together. Grasping that and not hating each other because of it can be healthy too.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

> For instance the marriage counseling that gets brought up. Do you really think if he thought his marriage was on life support and MC was the only thing to help it, that he wouldn't go? Of course he would.


Uh, NO, he wouldn't! But then I was married to a narcissist (didn't figure that one out until TAM...thanks TAM). I think A WHOLE LOT OF MEN (especially those born 1940's to 1960's) would REFUSE TO GO. We were taught when growing up that going to seek professional help was shameful and a stigma attached to you (whether it was marriage counseling or a shrink).

I think TOO MAN MEN have TOO MUCH PRIDE to admit to someone else that their marriage is a mess, or their life isn't as it appears to the outside world. They cannot humble themselves enough to ask for/accept advice from professionals. This DOES, in fact, make their wives lose respect for them. [I'm sure there are some wives who act this way also, but by and large I've seen it as an overwhelmingly male trait.]


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

Cindy7271 said:


> Yes Dover, things are really that bad. I actually hold back things when i talk to him, so I don't hurt his feelings more. He DOES NOT TRY HARD ENOUGH! Works all day...on his cellphone for the evening..has a beer or two. Completly ignores the kids and I. Rarely helps around the house, or with the kids. He's in a fog, and I'm so sick of it. He KNOWS I'm not happy. I'm not sure why he's not making more of an effort..I couldn't answer that. But I do know, that he talks about changing all the time. Talk is cheap. I want action. I'm sick of doing EVERYTHING on my own. Looking after house, kids, appointments for all of us, working on the marriage and getting advice(LIKE RIGHT NOW), couselling on my own...etc...I told him one time, that if he valued his cell phone and those stupid games he plays on it, then he could drill a hole in it and...... well, I'm sure I don't have to finish this sentence. But, lets not forget "he loves me more then anyone EVER"...and "I'm his whole life, and he do anything for me"..."I work so hard, for you baby"...lmao. Why do men think, that they just have to work, come home, eat supper, and lay on the couch..and that's enough? Really? Cause I'm pretty sure, he was there when we had OUR children. I don't expect him to do ANYTHING but play with them, or talk to them. And for more then 30 seconds please! yes, I'm bitter and jaded. lol


C'mon, tell us how you really feel. 

I think in some cases he's just overwhelmed and doesn't know HOW to change. Being romantic is hard when you haven't done it in a long time. My wife never said a word, but I knew I wanted to play with my kids more. I honestly just didn't know how (as weird as that sounds). 

And if this situation has dragged on awhile, if his sex life has been bad for awhile, if he hasn't been getting affection regularly for awhile, I can tell you he's bone tired. Without ever doing anything you just feel sooo tired all the time when your life is like this. I'm sure you feel the same way. Just thinking about it is hard, much less getting up with energy and will and courage to really change. 

I think a lot of it has to do with both men & women needing support from their spouse when they're both so angry and resentful that all they can do is ooze that negativity.


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> Uh, NO, he wouldn't! But then I was married to a narcissist (didn't figure that one out until TAM...thanks TAM). I think A WHOLE LOT OF MEN (especially those born 1940's to 1960's) would REFUSE TO GO. We were taught when growing up that going to seek professional help was shameful and a stigma attached to you (whether it was marriage counseling or a shrink).
> 
> I think TOO MAN MEN have TOO MUCH PRIDE to admit to someone else that their marriage is a mess, or their life isn't as it appears to the outside world. They cannot humble themselves enough to ask for/accept advice from professionals. This DOES, in fact, make their wives lose respect for them. [I'm sure there are some wives who act this way also, but by and large I've seen it as an overwhelmingly male trait.]


Yes, it's shame avoidance. I said that. It's definitely a male trait. But it's also that they think they can fix it without going, because they don't see the underlying issues. They just see the things they're getting b*tched at about and figure those are easy enough to fix. The real underlying issues rarely get brought up, just the symptoms.


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

By the way, I just talked to my wife about this. We were disconnected for over 10 years. She said, no, she didn't really ever try to tell me she was unhappy. She figured it was just a normal down cycle in a marriage and it would eventually work itself out. I'm personally very grateful that we have a second chance at things.


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## waiwera (Sep 8, 2009)

Drover said:


> You were saying, "our marriage is in trouble." He was hearing, "she wants me to remember to take the trash out."


REALLY? :scratchhead: How bizarre!
Are you sure you speak for all(most) men here?

If this is really true then marriage/any M/F relationship is truly fu*ked and has no hope!


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Drover said:


> You really believe they just don't care about the thing they consider the most important thing in their lives? That doesn't make sense at all.


If someone truly values their marriage, they actually make the effort to work at keeping it together. 

It is as simple as that.


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

waiwera said:


> REALLY? :scratchhead: How bizarre!
> Are you sure you speak for all(most) men here?
> 
> If this is really true then marriage/any M/F relationship is truly fu*ked and has no hope!


I don't know if I speak for all or most, but I think I speak for many that are in this particular situation. The thing is he thinks you were just threatening marriage counseling as a way to get him to do whatever you were b*tching about to begin with. He doesn't get that you really believe you need MC, and his not remembering to take the trash out is just a symptom of bigger problems.


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

Jellybeans, you can say it's simple over and over but if it were, so many people wouldn't be in these messes. Sorry you're too bitter to try to see that yours is not the only viewpoint, but this thread was about trying to get to the why's of things not about venting and ranting.


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## waiwera (Sep 8, 2009)

Drover said:


> I don't know if I speak for all or most, but I think I speak for many that are in this particular situation. The thing is he thinks you were just threatening marriage counseling as a way to get him to do whatever you were b*tching about to begin with. He doesn't get that you really believe you need MC, and his not remembering to take the trash out is just a symptom of bigger problems.


Ya know...this is scary! Sometimes I think for all the talk not much gets said that is actually understood.

Scary...because I live in ' man-land'. We have 3 sons (14, 16, 25) even the dog is male (8). So I'm in a home with 4 men and a dog that have little or no understanding of what I'm going on about half the time it would seem LOL!

Biggest worry to me... the idea that the woman says "The marriage is in trouble!"...the bloke thinks she annoyed about the effing trash??

Do men really think women are that silly and shallow.... we might leave you for making us feeling unloved or disrespected but I have NEVER ever heard of any woman I know ending a marriage over the trash. 

Having said that I've loved my H for 25 years (allowing for a few less than lovey dovey times) and he knows there is is only two ways to make me leave...abuse me or cheat on me. 
So he knows that even if he forgets the put the trash out...i'll still love him in the morning


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Drover 
Your sex life is about the best barometer of how she feels about you at any point in time. Absent illness or the short Window after a baby, a bad sex life means that she doesn't care that much how happy you are. And 'bad', means you have made it clear you are not happy with it. 

The average woman doesn't stay high drive. That means if they know you are not happy about it and they are not working on it, they don't see you as worthy of the effort. 

The never ending list of excuses boil down to that. 

That doesn't make them wrong or mean. The 'effort', often ties to how good you are to them in bed. And the worthy part has to do with whether or not you have turned into a doormat as much as anything else.


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

I can't ever imagine falling out of love with my husband. We both work so hard putting our marriage as our number one priority and we work so hard to please each other.


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

This was well said, and the part highlighted is important too. It's only a good barometer IF she understands how important the sex part is to you. It's amazing how mine just didn't for years, and once she did how much more of an effort she makes. Of course, a lot of changes on my part help that.

The baby window is a big deal too. That short window can turn into an infinite window if you let it. Habits are hard to break.



MEM11363 said:


> Drover
> Your sex life is about the best barometer of how she feels about you at any point in time. Absent illness or the short Window after a baby, a bad sex life means that she doesn't care that much how happy you are. *And 'bad', means you have made it clear you are not happy with it. *
> 
> The average woman doesn't stay high drive. That means if they know you are not happy about it and they are not working on it, they don't see you as worthy of the effort.
> ...


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## Hellioness (Jul 6, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Drover
> Your sex life is about the best barometer of how she feels about you at any point in time. Absent illness or the short Window after a baby, a bad sex life means that she doesn't care that much how happy you are. And 'bad', means you have made it clear you are not happy with it.
> 
> The average woman doesn't stay high drive. That means if they know you are not happy about it and they are not working on it, they don't see you as worthy of the effort.
> ...


I don't really agree with this. Some women aren't high drive at all, never were, it wasn't that they sudden became low drive and it also doesn't mean that she doesn't care about you because she ISN'T high drive, it's not a persons fault that they are high or low drive and it has no bearing on how they feel about you as a person.

How "good you are to them in bed" also has no bearing on rather or not a person is high or low drive. 

You can be with a sex god, that still doesn't mean that your automatically going to switch to high drive. Sex just isn't important to people with a low drive, they don't need or want it, being good in bed isn't going to change that.
Someone with low drive isn't going to constantly try to jump your bones, even if it is important to you, it's not exactly easy to have sex when you're not "in the mood"


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

But it's a whole different ballgame when the wife is angry, beligerant, and refuses to convey a viable reply as to what it is that is causing all of their hurt and anger, without us having to go on some form of a "fishing expedition" just to try and find out from her.

And even then, that just seems to make them even more angrier!

In my situation, her occasional anger toward me was nothingmore than a ruse, where she richly used it in justifying having concurrent affairs with her FB paramours; the best friend of her deceased first husband, and her HS boyfriend!


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

Hellioness said:


> I don't really agree with this. Some women aren't high drive at all, never were, it wasn't that they sudden became low drive and it also doesn't mean that she doesn't care about you because she ISN'T high drive, it's not a persons fault that they are high or low drive and it has no bearing on how they feel about you as a person.
> 
> How "good you are to them in bed" also has no bearing on rather or not a person is high or low drive.
> 
> ...


I think there's something to be said for both sides of this. Yes, some are higher drive than others. But when you met and were falling in love, I'll bet you wanted sex more than once a month when you were ovulating. What was the difference? You were in love. 

Look at this thread. Former LD wives who are now HD...what changed? They fell in love with someone else.


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

arbitrator said:


> But it's a whole different ballgame when the wife is angry, beligerant, and refuses to convey a viable reply as to what it is that is causing all of their hurt and anger, without us having to go on some form of a "fishing expedition" just to try and find out from her.
> 
> And even then, that just seems to make them even more angrier!
> 
> In my situation, her occasional anger toward me was nothingmore than a ruse, where she richly used it in justifying having concurrent affairs with her FB paramours; the best friend of her deceased first husband, and her HS boyfriend!


Love your avatar, but I have no idea what this has to do with the subject of this thread.


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## Alecto (Sep 16, 2012)

Drover said:


> To me x, y and z were all little issues and I just thought, no bog deal. Her making a big deal out of x, y and z was her just being b*tchy.


This is the problem. One person can't just decide that the other partner's concerns aren't important enough. If a person is "b*tching" about something, it's usually because it is a real problem. For them, at least, whether it is for their partner or not.


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## Hellioness (Jul 6, 2012)

Drover said:


> I think there's something to be said for both sides of this. Yes, some are higher drive than others. But when you met and were falling in love, I'll bet you wanted sex more than once a month when you were ovulating. What was the difference? You were in love.
> 
> Look at this thread. Former LD wives who are now HD...what changed? They fell in love with someone else.


Actually I didn't. I've never turned the husband down, but I don't tend to really WANT to have sex either. We've always had sex based on how much HE wants it.


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

Alecto said:


> This is the problem. One person can't just decide that the other partner's concerns aren't important enough. If a person is "b*tching" about something, it's usually because it is a real problem. For them, at least, whether it is for their partner or not.


This is not necessarily true at all. A lot of couples get into that hypercritical zone where they just pick at each other. We did that. It didn't have to be anything important at all. Especially once we got to where we were angry and resentful all the time. That's exactly my point. When someone is constantly nitpicking you have no idea which is the important thing. And when they decide, "well as long as I'm *****ing at him I might as well pile on with all my criticisms," you really have no idea.

And yeah, I'm not just saying women do this. Men do it too.


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## Alecto (Sep 16, 2012)

Drover said:


> This is not necessarily true at all. A lot of couples get into that hypercritical zone where they just pick at each other. We did that. It didn't have to be anything important at all. Especially once we got to where we were angry and resentful all the time. That's exactly my point. When someone is constantly nitpicking you have no idea which is the important thing. And when they decide, "well as long as I'm *****ing at him I might as well pile on with all my criticisms," you really have no idea.
> 
> And yeah, I'm not just saying women do this. Men do it too.


The nitpicking started somewhere though. It starts with a complaint or a request that is ignored. It's becomes hypercritical or nitpicking because it is _ignored_, and that leads to frustration.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Drover said:


> Love your avatar, but I have no idea what this has to do with the subject of this thread.


Drover: In my case, STBXW was employing "anger" toward me strictly as a "misrepresentation ploy" in perpetuating her clandestined EA/PA's with the other men in her life, unbeknownst to me at that time. I'll be the very first to agree that she had "fallen out of love" with me, but she severely lacked the courage to look me in the eyes and tell me exactly why!

All that she had ever verbalized was that she wanted a "trial separation," in order to give her more space/time to carry on those hidden relationships while still being in a married relationship with me, and sleeping with all of us concurrently!


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> Can only speak for myself here.
> Not trying to pick a fight with you men, but it REALLY strains the limits of credulity to believe that most men don't have ANY IDEA......


Why? When the genders are reversed, the situation is almost axiomatic, and women are stereotyped as being the more intuitive, observant sex.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Truth be told, I truly think that there are just as many men out there who would start the argument with their spouse just to use it to perpetuate their own ends. Sorry, but I really can't see this as being something that is "gender exclusive!"


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

waiwera said:


> REALLY? :scratchhead: How bizarre!
> Are you sure you speak for all(most) men here?
> 
> If this is really true then marriage/any M/F relationship is truly fu*ked and has no hope!


Yes that kind of thinking is pretty common.

It's why books like men are from mars women are from Venus are so popular. Because we speak completely different languages and have completely different brain processes.

Men are extremely basic creatures, we don't have the intellect or desire to play word games. If we're unhappy about something, we'll say it directly. "I want more sex." From my experience, most women won't express dissatisfaction with something directly. Instead it will seep out into other areas. So whereas she is mad that he doesn't help around the house, he's getting yelled at for leaving his clothes on the floor.

Husband thinks she's overreacting because it's not that big of a deal, wife wants to call it quits because she can't believe he's so thoughtless and disrespectful. Husband will ignore wife thinking she's just being a nag, wife will pull farther away.

Neither way is "correct", they are differing paradigms. As mentioned, I think it's much easier for a woman to just express her concerns more directly. If at that point no action is taken, then there's no point staying, as the man probably won't get it until the wife is leaving.


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

arbitrator said:


> Truth be told, I truly think that there are just as many men out there who would start the argument with their spouse just to use it to perpetuate their own ends. Sorry, but I really can't see this as being something that is "gender exclusive!"


It's definitely not. I said that in my post above.


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

COguy said:


> Yes that kind of thinking is pretty common.
> 
> It's why books like men are from mars women are from Venus are so popular. Because we speak completely different languages and have completely different brain processes.
> 
> ...


And when you throw emotions like anger, resentment, anxiety, shame, fear, etc. into the mix so neither side is thinking clearly, or communicating or listening as clearly as they think they are it;s no surprise there's miscommunication.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Anomnom said:


> I think you'll find that almost 100% of women who have come to the point of saying 'I want a divorce' have been telling their husbands for years that there are problems in the relationship and he has never acknowledged the full extent of how serious the accumulated issues are.
> 
> Personally, I have been telling my husband for years that we have problems, I've gone to marriage counselling on my own because he openly tells me that we have a great marriage so he doesn't need to go. It's hard for me to comprehend that if his wife has a problem, that he doesn't think it's also his problem :scratchhead:
> 
> ...


Well, we managed to not get divorced but it was close for a while there so I feel entitled to comment.

The first thing my wife said to me that told me there was a problem in our marriage was "I only kissed him once. It won't happen again, even though I will still see him regularly." (And unsurprisingly it did happen again, and more besides.)

The second thing she said was "You go to marriage counselling to sort your problems out if you need it. I don't."

Years later, when we were relating properly again, she admitted to me that she just felt that she was so unhappy I should be able to see it without her having to say anything.

Obviously this is very different from your situation, and your post provides clear evidence of actions you are taking. Kudos to you. But I've now seen enough cases like mine among friends to be sure your 100% figure is wrong.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> It's simple: when one partner is voicing concerns for the state of the relationship and the other partner continually and repeatedly chooses to ignore them, the ignoring partner does not care enough to meet them halfway or to make an effort.
> 
> And that really says it all.


Valid provided the needs are reasonable and agreed. Which I'm sure was the case in your situation, but maybe not for everyone.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

I was the one who bought the relationship books, who tried to get my wife to MC she never read the books and never went to MC. I’m a very resourceful and creative guy yet nothing I ever did worked. It got to the point where I gave my wife four ultimatums, one of them was come to MC with me or else I withdraw my love from her and end our marriage.

She sent me an email saying something like we’ve been through it all before, she wont go to MC etc. etc. and now is the time to end our marriage. A few days after that we had a little go at reconciliation but it blew right up and she threw my ultimatums (new found boundaries) in my face.


Why I write the above is because yesterday I saw a photo of her taken the day before for the first time in nearly three years since we separated. I never ask our eldest son about his mother and he never volunteers any information, it’s how he likes to handle it. In the photo she’s sitting having a drink with our youngest son and some friends.


In the photo she’s wearing her wedding ring, the one I bought her 40 years ago in 1972.



These things are sometimes crazy. It wasn’t until we’d been separated for some 6 months that my wife actually became a bit introspective and looked at how her behaviour upset me, looked at her role in the problems within our marriage. That is she seemed to have had some kind of epiphany moment when she “suddenly” became self aware.

She told me a bit about it but by that time it was way too late for me, I’d gone beyond the point of return. She’d left it way too late. She did have a chance of getting back into my life but her epiphany seemed about a one on the Richter Scale when it needed to be an eight or a nine to have any chance with me.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Drover said:


> Jellybeans, you can say it's simple over and over but if it were, so many people wouldn't be in these messes. Sorry you're too bitter to try to see that yours is not the only viewpoint, but this thread was about trying to get to the why's of things not about venting and ranting.


I am not bitter, nor am I venting and ranting. You posted on a public forum asking for opinions and I gave you mine. It's clear you disagree. And that is fine. But don't come at the posters in your thread like how you are above when you don't like what you are hearing. You wanted to get to the "whys" and didn't agree with what was being said so you began to counter the feedback you're getting and start using the words "venting/ranting/bitter" to negate/dismiss the differing POV. It's irony at it's finest. Especially with the thread topic.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

AFEH said:


> I was the one who bought the relationship books, who tried to get my wife to MC she never read the books and never went to MC. I’m a very resourceful and creative guy yet nothing I ever did worked. It got to the point where I gave my wife four ultimatums, one of them was come to MC with me or else I withdraw my love from her and end our marriage.
> 
> She told me a bit about it but by that time it was way too late for me, I’d gone beyond the point of return. She’d left it way too late. She did have a chance of getting back into my life but her epiphany seemed about a one on the Richter Scale when it needed to be an eight or a nine to have any chance with me.


It always amazes me when one partner completely turns down any request/want/need to work on the relationship when the other party voices a concern/want to strengthen the relationship/make things matter. Makes no sense to me.




Alecto said:


> This is the problem. One person can't just decide that the other partner's concerns aren't important enough.


Boom! 

You basically said everything I've been trying to say except for much more concisely.  

:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## in my tree (Jun 9, 2012)

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> Can only speak for myself here.
> Not trying to pick a fight with you men, but it REALLY strains the limits of credulity to believe that most men don't have ANY IDEA how p*ssed off their wives are; how angry, how hurt, how frustrated. I don't know, maybe guys just want to believe 'she's just on the rag' 'it's that time of the month' because THEN they don't have to actually worry about what the real problem is or acknowledge that there IS a problem. Believing that she's just being hormonal is the path of least resistance. I can't do anything about her hormones, therefore I can't do anything about her b*tchiness/moodiness/unhappiness.
> 
> No, I believe it's a case of they (the wives) believe that if they just hang in there long enough they'll be able to just suck it up and keep taking it no matter HOW unhappy they are. All women I've ever met b*tch about their men. So, when you're unhappy in your marriage you just figure 'that's the way it is...deal with it.' You figure you're no more unhappy [barring cheating, abuse or addiction, etc.] than your mother or your sisters or your friends. If everyone else is b*tching and whining and still HANGING IN THERE, you can do it, too! So the wives keep plugging away at the things that HAVE to get done (kids, cooking, chores, work, etc.) and just keep hoping that they'll be able to move past the anger and just shrug it all off at some point in the not-too-distant future (or, if we're being REAL honest, that maybe he'll die and she won't have to put up with his cr*p for any longer.)
> ...


Wow... what she said. Oh, and I think you have hit the "wise" stage.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> I am not bitter, nor am I venting and ranting. You posted on a public forum asking for opinions and I gave you mine. It's clear you disagree. And that is fine. But don't come at the posters in your thread like how you are above when you don't like what you are hearing. You wanted to get to the "whys" and didn't agree with what was being said so you began to counter the feedback you're getting and start using the words "venting/ranting/bitter" to negate/dismiss the differing POV. It's irony at it's finest. Especially with the thread topic.


The OP only wants to hear from wives who never said a single word to the husbands about problems in the marriage & woke up one day & said they are leaving.

Not going to happen. Life doesn't work like that.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Drover said:


> I'm sure sometimes they say things like this, but in many cases including my own, she was saying, "Why don't you ever <x>? You never <y>. When are you going to <z>?"
> 
> And she never said, "The lack of <xyz> is really bothering me and it's reducing my feelings for you and making me not enjoy our marriage, and it's really serious."


This is what I hear: "You're a #####", "You @@@@", "Your never ...", "You always ...", "You think you're ...", "You don't (know how to) ..."

I truly believe my wife thinks she is communicating something she needs or something she wants from me, but all I hear is her opinion of me as a person and it mostly comes across as pretty bad. However, I can't say I would be surprised if she wanted to leave. I just can't figure out from what she says what she wants in order to stay


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Jellybeans said:


> It always amazes me when one partner completely turns down any request/want/need to work on the relationship when the other party voices a concern/want to strengthen the relationship/make things matter. Makes no sense to me.


I’m working on “Mindfulness”. Let’s say we ask our husband or wife to go to MC and they wont. For us it’s such an obvious thing to do that we don’t look for reasons why they wont go, we just keep on asking. It’s kind of your tyres got a puncture, this is how you fix it.


But what happens when we become “mindful” and say something to our self like “Hmm, we’ve got problems in our marriage. The standard way of resolving them is to go to MC. Any normal person in normal circumstances would go to MC, so why wont she/he go?”. And therein lies the quandary. It’s the why, not the what that’s important.


I’ve decided/judged/concluded that my wife was playing me and she was afraid that any MC, most especially a woman, would see right through her games whereas I was blind to them.


So I think my wife feared that going to MC would uncover her game and that I would end the marriage once I found out just how duplicit she was being and just how much she had betrayed me.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Jellybeans said:


> It always amazes me when one partner completely turns down any request/want/need to work on the relationship when the other party voices a concern/want to strengthen the relationship/make things matter. Makes no sense to me.


An underlying fear of being vulnerable or a perfectionist attitude that can't tolerate personal shortcomings are a couple possible explanations. This stuff never makes sense to someone who doesn't share the characteristic


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

Emerald said:


> The OP only wants to hear from wives who never said a single word to the husbands about problems in the marriage & woke up one day & said they are leaving.
> 
> Not going to happen. Life doesn't work like that.


Actually this happens a lot. It happened in my own case, and my wife admits it. But I'm also trying to work out why husbands aren't hearing them when they do. Her view is that it's all his fault because he just doesn't care, which is clearly not the case in many, many marriages. And that viewpoint is not useful to what I'm trying to accomplish. Her posts just ooze bitterness.


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## MYM1430 (Nov 7, 2011)

I think another way that men misunderstand their wives complaints is that they weigh the evidence of ALL communication. Sure they may hear (and even understand) the nagging and direct criticism, but they also think of all the loving actions of their wives (who may be employing the "fake it 'til you make it" philosophy). So if a man's wife says "you need to change this or I will leave" and yet makes his meals or gives a token bj every so often, he will weigh the words and actions together and think things could be better but it is OK. The mixed signals are not only what drive men crazy, they confuse the message the women are so desperately trying to convey. So, in conclusion, women need to start using the 180 approach not the "fake it 'til you make it" approach.


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> It always amazes me when one partner completely turns down any request/want/need to work on the relationship when the other party voices a concern/want to strengthen the relationship/make things matter. Makes no sense to me.


It might be useful to try to figure out WHY instead of just being amazed by it. That's what I'm trying to accomplish. If you figure out WHY, maybe you can actually improve the situation instead of just laying blame.


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

MYM1430 said:


> I think another way that men misunderstand their wives complaints is that they weigh the evidence of ALL communication. Sure they may hear (and even understand) the nagging and direct criticism, but they also think of all the loving actions of their wives (who may be employing the "fake it 'til you make it" philosophy). So if a man's wife says "you need to change this or I will leave" and yet makes his meals or gives a token bj every so often, he will weigh the words and actions together and think things could be better but it is OK. The mixed signals are not only what drive men crazy, they confuse the message the women are so desperately trying to convey. So, in conclusion, women need to start using the 180 approach not the "fake it 'til you make it" approach.


Good point. Fake it 'til you make it only works when both parties are on board and making an effort.


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## mule kick (Apr 10, 2012)

One more voice from the wilderness... Yeah my wife wanted some things about me to change, like watching football and drinking with the neighbors. I wanted changes from her, too like joining me watching football and drinking with the neighbors. It was an impasse that ended our marriage. I think she was unreasonable and she thinks I neglected her. As I said before, now she is putting up with plenty of bad habits and other issues with her new boyfriend but he doesn't have any friends or really work so he has all this time to dote on her that I didn't. For being well-rounded, gainfully employed and having a social life, I lost my wife. Somebody referred to it as the 80/20 rule, that your partner really can't be expected to meet 100% of your needs but usually 80%. So your (my) walk away wife was trying to get that other 20% somewhere, not realizing what they really had before. Or maybe there really was someone out there better for them?


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