# Should I just cut her off completely?



## Big Dude (Feb 24, 2013)

About 9 months ago, I realized that my wife of 27 years did not desire me sexually, and never had. Like many women it seems, she was willing to forego her sexuality in exchange for other desirable traits she saw in me as a potential husband. She is a woman of strong character otherwise and realized the importance of meeting my sexual needs, so for decades she willingly provided a form of duty sex. She didn't hate it, she didn't really like it either, except for the warm fuzzy feeling she got from keeping me happy.

Once I figured out what was going on (I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed) my sexual desire for her flipped off like a light switch. I came to TAM and asked if I should tell her that I didn't desire her anymore. After considering lots of well intentioned advice, I decided that honesty was the best policy and let her know my position.

I tried for a month of trying to work through the issue through communication, but she refused to communicate. 

Since then, I have not initiated lovemaking with her. About once a month she initiates (motivated I think by a sense of obligation and now possibly some relationship insecurity) and I participate as enthusiastically as I can. She brings her A game most of the time and I had hoped that eventually we could both fake it till we made some progress.

After all this time, it's still just two people who don't desire each other just getting it on for form's sake. The inauthenticity is soul killing.

I'm recovering from surgery right now and I'm so relieved that I don't have to deal with this charade in the immediate future. But at some point she is going to initiate again, and I have a decision to make.

Not initiating sex has, in a twisted way, allowed me to manage my self-respect. I know that many would argue that bad sex is better than no sex. But I'm strongly considering a policy of a polite "no thank you" when the time comes, and keeping it up.

Bad idea?


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

IMO, if you can live with a woman for 27 years without blowing your brains out, she's a keeper. Whether you are giddy thrilled to go to work everyday or not, as long as bills get paid, it's good. Whether she thinks you're Don Juan or Don Knotts in the rack, as long as you're both getting enough of what you need to stay in the game, it's good.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

While I understand your frustration, I'm not sure how you think the passive approach is going to fix anything. But if you're willing to forgo a sex life, knock yourself out, I guess. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thunder7 (Jan 2, 2013)

It all depends on where you think the marriage is going. Are you going to bail on the sex aspect of marriage and keep the actual marriage in tact, or bail on the whole thing? If you bail on one but not the other you have to both be comfortable with a sexless, passionless marriage. I'm not sure how a marriage can survive, and thrive, with no intimacy.


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## inarut (Feb 9, 2013)

Did your wife actually tell you that she doesn't desire you sexually and never has or is this your perception/assumption?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

"Bad idea?" 

Nope

If you do not care about sex than just let her know that you do not need her to initiate once a month in order to want to stay married to her. Once she gains some confidence that this is true than she will probably stop initiating. 

Maybe she really wants some sex though. Even if she does not orgasm there is still the bond that it creates which women are more likely to experience without the O, where as men more often tie the two together. 

Perhaps ask her if she really thinks the marriage needs any sex and how often. Maybe she will say, once a month, once a year, or never.

If she needs sex once a year to keep her self-esteem or confidence than you should provide that for her and be happy about it.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Big Dude said:


> After all this time, it's still just two people who don't desire each other just getting it on for form's sake. The inauthenticity is soul killing.


I understand this feeling completely. Sex between married people should be a beautiful, soul-connecting bonding experience, something intimate shared only by those two people. When that is lacking it becomes almost meaningless, at least to me. I recently left a 20-year marriage for much of the same reason.

I have no advice, but I do have a question. Do you believe the sex between the two of you was never a true bonding experience for your wife? i.e. Do you believe that she was never really in love with you?

When you are confident of those answers, let your heart have its say. Too often we are ruled by the "logic" that our heads tell us and we stop listening to our heart. Only you know what your needs are to truly be happy.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Exactly what did she say to give you the impression she "did not desire me sexually, and never had."

You say you "figured it out" which to me sounds like you are putting pieces together to come to that conclusion, rather than her coming out and saying "I don't want to have sex with you but I will."

You may be going down the passive agressive path over something that is in your head.


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## Big Dude (Feb 24, 2013)

PBear said:


> While I understand your frustration, I'm not sure how you think the passive approach is going to fix anything. But if you're willing to forgo a sex life, knock yourself out, I guess.
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


PBear, I guess what I'm thinking is this plan might improve my shredded self-respect, and the loss of lame 2-way duty sex isn't much of a minus. 

I agree it is passive (thanks for pointing that out.) If you have any active suggestions I'm all ears!


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## Big Dude (Feb 24, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> Exactly what did she say to give you the impression she "did not desire me sexually, and never had."
> 
> You say you "figured it out" which to me sounds like you are putting pieces together to come to that conclusion, rather than her coming out and saying "I don't want to have sex with you but I will."
> 
> You may be going down the passive agressive path over something that is in your head.


I appreciate this caution. I am convinced of the reality of my understanding. Here's the sequence of events:

a) In the middle of lovemaking, I have an epiphany. 30 years of behavioral dots connect.

b) I explain what I think to my wife. She says nothing.

c) During the next month of conversations, I ask her point blank several times if she was sexually attracted to me at any time in our relationship. Her answer is always "I love you." At no time will she answer my question directly.

That pretty much says it all as far as I'm concerned. But, like I said, I'm not the brightest guy in the world and I will admit the possibility of coming to a wrong conclusion. Still, I feel like I've gotta work with what I have and am not content to let things continue the way they are unless that really is the best alternative.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Big Dude said:


> PBear, I guess what I'm thinking is this plan might improve my shredded self-respect, and the loss of lame 2-way duty sex isn't much of a minus.
> 
> I agree it is passive (thanks for pointing that out.) If you have any active suggestions I'm all ears!


I'm on my iPhone, so I can't see your past posts. Have you run through the "Married Man's Sex Life Primer"?

Another non-passive approach is the one I took... "Dear, I'm not willing to forgo what's left of my sexual years with someone who isn't interested in working on a healthy intimate relationship. I'll be moving out in 3 months". Preferably without the affair detour that I took. :-(

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

My ex was somewhat like your wife, Big Dude. She saw me as good husband material, but either wasn't interested in me sexually, or wasn't much interested in sex at all - or both. She wasn't even trying, unlike your wife who made an effort.

After 24 years, it became too much (along with other problems), so I divorced her. Life got much better after that! Unless you would rather remain in a frustrating sexless marriage for whatever reason, you may find that not having to resent her for not wanting you, and not having to hold back, is better. And, you may even find someone who desires you!


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Big Dude said:


> I appreciate this caution. I am convinced of the reality of my understanding. Here's the sequence of events:
> 
> a) In the middle of lovemaking, I have an epiphany. 30 years of behavioral dots connect.
> 
> ...


I can understand how you came to that conclusion, however that still doesnèt actually answer the question that is in your hed.

You speak of resolving to improve your egoéself respect. Hereès one way; tell her point blank what you have interpreted again and then tell her that unless you get an honest, striaght-forward yes or no right now, you are going to assume that she does not, nor ever did, sexually desire you. If she answers evasively again, tell her that you take that as meaning she didnèt desire you, explain what the consequences are (that you are withdrawing physically from the relationship, which could cause other problems down the road, including divorce if you are at all considering that path) and walk away to go do your own thing.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

OP you are leading your own mind and marraige to a very bad place.

Women are not men. I'll leave it at that.


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## Big Dude (Feb 24, 2013)

Hicks said:


> OP you are leading your own mind and marraige to a very bad place.
> 
> Women are not men. I'll leave it at that.


Hicks, before I can learn your teachings, you must first teach me to learn!

Shall I conclude that since your comment just flew miles over my head that I am missing some important inscrutable communication from my wife?


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I think what Hicks is saying is that women and men think differently, so how you interpret this might not be how she feels. I don't suppose you would know if she's ever really been sexually attracted to anyone? Some women aren't that sexual, so she may be attracted to you as much as she can be attracted to anyone. As a woman I'll say this: 27 years is a long time to bring your A game and put out for someone you're not sexually attracted to, so something doesn't add up here. You should really try counseling to explore this before giving up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

I have had the same issue, to a lesser degree. The emptiness that comes with having sex with someone who would rather not be there is hard to simply brush off. Some say that some sex is better than none. I would disagree. Having a willing body that is more focused on Facebook or Jeopardy is not the same as having someone who is engaged, willing, and filled with desire for you. 

From what I have read, I would cut her off. Simply to draw a direct and honest out of her. I have not had all that much success taking the same approach but everyone is different.


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## Cre8ify (Feb 1, 2012)

You have to walk back telling her you do not desire her IMO. No good comes from that.

Your needs are way different than hers. She may be completely satisfied with the nature of your relationship. If she feels safe and secure, is appreciated for what she does and has a conversational partner its probably all good.

And yet its not.


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## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

Women often do not tie together sexual attraction and mate attraction the same way or perhaps as much as guys do.

I think you should not assume that you properly understand what she thinks by guessing. 

Is my wife really sexually attractive? Not by most outsiders opinion. Sure like any guy I would not mind at all if she looked like a model and screwed like a porn star. That does not mean I do not love her and enjoy having sex with her. 

Perhaps your wife is just not all that sexually driven. That, in my experience, is pretty normal outside of the first year or two of a relationship for women especially.


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## Big Dude (Feb 24, 2013)

Cre8ify said:


> You have to walk back telling her you do not desire her IMO. No good comes from that.
> 
> Your needs are way different than hers. She may be completely satisfied with the nature of your relationship. If she feels safe and secure, is appreciated for what she does and has a conversational partner its probably all good.
> 
> And yet its not.


I have made a boatload of dumb moves in every aspect of my life. I would take so many things back if I could. But being honest with my wife about my sexual feelings is not one of those things. I will not walk back from the truth. However our sexual relationship turns out, I need to know it is real. If that's weakness or stupidity on my part I need to suck it up, because it's part of my ethos.

I think she is completely satisfied with the nature of our relationship. Obviously I'm not as satisfied. Just trying to find a way to increase that satisfaction.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Big Dude said:


> I appreciate this caution. I am convinced of the reality of my understanding. Here's the sequence of events:
> 
> a) In the middle of lovemaking, I have an epiphany. 30 years of behavioral dots connect.
> 
> ...


Has she ever said or done anything that makes you think she was attracted to you sexually? When you were dating, when you were first married, making up after a fight? How about any one else (even comments about a celebrity or the like)?



> That pretty much says it all as far as I'm concerned. But, like I said, I'm not the brightest guy in the world and I will admit the possibility of coming to a wrong conclusion. Still, I feel like I've gotta work with what I have and am not content to let things continue the way they are unless that really is the best alternative.


What if she responded by saying that you were correct and that she is just not that sexually attracted you, but she otherwise loves you as a partner, husband, friend and man? Assuming the worst case scenario, what would you do?


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## Big Dude (Feb 24, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Has she ever said or done anything that makes you think she was attracted to you sexually? When you were dating, when you were first married, making up after a fight? How about any one else (even comments about a celebrity or the like)?
> 
> 
> 
> What if she responded by saying that you were correct and that she is just not that sexually attracted you, but she otherwise loves you as a partner, husband, friend and man? Assuming the worst case scenario, what would you do?


If she said that, I would thank her for her honesty, reassure her that I loved her, and let her know that I will not - can not - have sex with someone who does not desire me.

After that, I'd just let things roll and see how it turns out.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

It would be hard to be motivated to want,desire,and be excited to have sex/make love to someone who you knew in your heart did not find you sexually exciting.

maybe its just me but that's how I feel. 

and I would be willing to bet that when you start refusing duty sex the next logical step would be an affair or divorce.


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## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

I stopped sex with my wife, it seems to be what she wants so In my view I gave her what she wants. I'm good with it because, like others have said, I don't like or want duty sex. I'd rather go without


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## Big Dude (Feb 24, 2013)

I admit I am a little (but just a little) concerned about the future possibility of an affair or divorce. I very much don't want either.

If, as some here have suggested, she is just not a sexual person, then I don't get how sexlessness might drive her to an affair. If it's just me, well she probably hasn't cheated yet - so why would she start now? And if she has cheated, I'd just as soon know the truth about that too.

On my end...I've never gone skydiving because even though I know it would be the coolest experience ever, I also know that when I got to the open door of a perfectly functioning airplane I would freeze and chicken out. Past experience leads me to believe I would be the same way with a potential affair.

This thread probably gives the impression that I am existentially destroyed by my wife's behavior. I am not. I love her deeply, and I know that she loves me. We have always been lovingly intimate in non-sexual ways. We are that kissy, hand-holding middle aged couple that makes teenagers say "Ewwww!" I'd like to think that our bond would survive sexlessness.

Of course, it would be great if she grew a libido, but failing that I'd still rather live a real life, not a fake one.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Has she ever indicated a sexual attraction to any one?



Big Dude said:


> If she said that, I would thank her for her honesty, reassure her that I loved her, and let her know that I will not - can not - have sex with someone who does not desire me.
> 
> After that, I'd just let things roll and see how it turns out.


Have you laid this out for her in those simple terms and asked her to respond?


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

But even if it's true that she's not sexually attracted to you, maybe in counseling you could find out why? She loves you, so perhaps it's fixable? Maybe it's her, maybe she had trauma you don't know about. .Maybe she resents something from the past, maybe there's been something she's been afraid to bring up? I totally get how you feel now, I'd feel like that too, but I could see you being a little sensitive and as a result I could see your wife not wanting to hurt your feelings. I think telling her you have no desire for her wasn't very smart unless you wanted to alienate her. It would be better to create a safe place where you tell her you love her, you'll work with her, but she has to tell you what's going on and you promise to listen. At this point you don't know that it's duty sex; women don't typically bring their A game to duty sex.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

OP-
Im in the same boat as you I am at 22 years. She has no sexual desire at all. She can easily go without .

the last year or so has been hell. I believe neither one of us desires the other. Sex, for now, is just that...sex...

I dont even consider a friend anymore

She has even told our mutual friends that I can have sex with other women. I think its a trap though. 

So I do my own thing now, meeting people, joinined meetup groups, meeting other women, and having fun. I love it.

I know at some point, there will be another woman (S).so far, I chickened out both times
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

"If, as some here have suggested, she is just not a sexual person, then I don't get how sexlessness might drive her to an affair."

They where talking about you having an affair and not her.

I don't really understand what you need? What is the desired outcome? 

"About once a month she initiates ...brings her A game most of the time..."

What is it you expect? 
Oh big dude you are like a greek god -take me!

All I see is -boohoo my wife doesn't think I'm sexy.

What exactly is she doing that offends you so much that you feel the need to end sexual relations with her?


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## Big Dude (Feb 24, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> But even if it's true that she's not sexually attracted to you, maybe in counseling you could find out why? She loves you, so perhaps it's fixable? Maybe it's her, maybe she had trauma you don't know about. .Maybe she resents something from the past, maybe there's been something she's been afraid to bring up? I totally get how you feel now, I'd feel like that too, but I could see you being a little sensitive and as a result I could see your wife not wanting to hurt your feelings. I think telling her you have no desire for her wasn't very smart unless you wanted to alienate her. It would be better to create a safe place where you tell her you love her, you'll work with her, but she has to tell you what's going on and you promise to listen. At this point you don't know that it's duty sex; women don't typically bring their A game to duty sex.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, maybe counseling is a better move than just cutting her off. I don't have a good feeling about counseling to start with, and my wife is remarkably non-communicative about sex, so even if I could convince myself that it's a good idea to go there I doubt she would agree. Still, you never know until you try.

I see references to different types of counseling on TAM -IC, MC, sex therapy, etc. What would be a good way to start assuming I/we decide to go that route?


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Big Dude said:


> I appreciate this caution. I am convinced of the reality of my understanding. Here's the sequence of events:
> 
> a) In the middle of lovemaking, I have an epiphany. 30 years of behavioral dots connect.
> 
> ...


What "behavioral dots" did you connect? What was your sex life like before this "epiphany"? 

If she's been a willing and pleasing partner who has been making the effort to meet your needs for 27 years, you're looking at a very different situation from one where she has been laying there like a corpse and/or telling you to hurry up. Not as sexual as you'd like, more vanilla than you'd prefer, inhibitions, non-orgasmic, responsive desire, etc. are all things that can be worked on. 

And it's really not all that uncommon for a woman to be just fine with, even really enjoy, sex with her husband even if she's not lusting after him or even orgasming. Women often view sex as a warm, intimate, loving act of giving to a man they love. It's taking care of him, like he takes care of her by doing all the great stuff he does. She may not be gagging for it, but she may be happy to engage and enjoy the act, the closeness, and even simply the happiness it brings him. 

It's also not all that uncommon for women to think about their sexual desires in combination with love, rather than separate from it. Some women are attracted to and sexual with a man they love _because_ they love him. So when you ask if she was ever sexually attracted to you, she may sincerely not understand that as different from love. For her, it may really be the same thing. She wants to be intimate with you because she loves you. If she didn't love you, or you were sexually repellant to her, she wouldn't want to be intimate. That her desire may be responsive and tied to her feelings of love for you, does not mean she does not and has never desired you. It just means her desire is responsive and she isn't wired like you are.

So, can you please tell us what was wrong with your sex life that led you to conclude that she'd never been sexually attracted to you? It's possible that with some mutual work and a better understanding of one another, this may be entirely fixable. And you'll certainly need to be able to articulate very clearly to any counselor what the problem is and what outcome you'd like to see.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Big Dude said:


> Yeah, maybe counseling is a better move than just cutting her off. I don't have a good feeling about counseling to start with, and my wife is remarkably non-communicative about sex, so even if I could convince myself that it's a good idea to go there I doubt she would agree. Still, you never know until you try.
> 
> I see references to different types of counseling on TAM -IC, MC, sex therapy, etc. What would be a good way to start assuming I/we decide to go that route?


Before you start down that road, lay out for her what you have said here. Explain very simply that you love her, but don't feel she is or has ever been sexually attracted to you. Because of that, you no longer feel sexually attracted to her. Ask her to respond and then listen. If you are correct, ask her what she suggests the two of you do. Then suggest counseling.


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## john1068 (Nov 12, 2013)

Big Dude said:


> I agree it is passive (thanks for pointing that out.) If you have any active suggestions I'm all ears!


I think just telling her what you've told us here is what would be best. I just finished reading Robert Glover's _No More Mr. Nice Guy_. It was a book full of nuggets of information. One of the final strategies was calling a sex moratorium...(No More Mr Nice Guy: Robert A. Glover: 9780762415335: Amazon.com: Books)



> Consider going on a sexual moratorium. Consiously refrain from sex for a predetermined period of time. No matter what your sexual situation is, it can be a powerful learning experience. Most guys initially resist the idea, but once they make the decision to do it, they find it to be a very positive experience. A sexual moratorium can have many benefits:
> 
> Helps break dysfunctional cycles
> Eliminates pursuing and distancing
> ...


This may be exactly what you need. Be warned, however, that it may force your W to rethink her role in all this as well, and it will very, very likely destabilize your perhaps too comfortable marriage...which is probably quite a good thing.


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## Big Dude (Feb 24, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Before you start down that road, lay out for her what you have said here. Explain very simply that you love her, but don't feel she is or has ever been sexually attracted to you. Because of that, you no longer feel sexually attracted to her. Ask her to respond and then listen. If you are correct, ask her what she suggests the two of you do. Then suggest counseling.


Great minds think alike. I said almost exactly those words to her Monday night, when she suggested sex the night before my surgery (no A game then...her eyes were dead.)

When I asked her what do you think we should do, she didn't say anything. She never does. I just see a deer in headlights look.


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## Big Dude (Feb 24, 2013)

Rowan said:


> What "behavioral dots" did you connect? What was your sex life like before this "epiphany"?
> 
> 
> So, can you please tell us what was wrong with your sex life that led you to conclude that she'd never been sexually attracted to you? It's possible that with some mutual work and a better understanding of one another, this may be entirely fixable. And you'll certainly need to be able to articulate very clearly to any counselor what the problem is and what outcome you'd like to see.


Faking orgasms (confirmed when pressed after my epiphany), not quite subtle enough clock watching, barely audible sighs...it was like she was at war with herself. Trying hard to be a sex kitten at the same time as trying to get it over with as soon as possible. There was always a sense that something was a little off, which I assumed I could fix by enhancing my skills.

She was never willing to talk about her sexuality, so I spent 30 years throwing everything and anything I could think of, read about, etc. hoping that something would stick. And to her credit, she tried to catch everything I pitched. But nothing worked. It was then that I realized it may not be a matter of me being a particularly poor lover, but an underlying attraction issue that was at the heart of the matter. And as I've said, she does not deny that this is the case.


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## Big Dude (Feb 24, 2013)

usmarriedguy said:


> I don't really understand what you need? What is the desired outcome?
> 
> 
> All I see is -boohoo my wife doesn't think I'm sexy.


The desired outcome is a marriage with less fakery, dishonesty, and game playing.

The reason all you see is boohoo is because that's probably all it is.


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## learning to love myself (Apr 18, 2013)

Big Dude said:


> Great minds think alike. I said almost exactly those words to her Monday night, when she suggested sex the night before my surgery (no A game then...her eyes were dead.)
> 
> When I asked her what do you think we should do, she didn't say anything. She never does. I just see a deer in headlights look.


I'm not sure anything I say will help as it was me who always felt the way your feeling with the difference of having NO sex. 

Being a woman and knowing a lot of women, she would never bring her A game if she didn't want you and desire you,in fact she would have an excuse to not have the so called " Duty Sex", with you all together like so many woman I know.

I know when my heart is feeling the love it comes out with how I want him. 

Now when I want him and I can tell he doesn't want me , it changes the way we have sex also, I start to question if I'm doing things right and if I'm turning him on. 

Its funny how as time goes by we all find it harder to talk about sex, I have been with my husband a long time and we had a very hard and bumpy road a few years back and we are still reconciling but our communication is getting so much better. 

We are talking about fantasies we both have without the worry of the other getting upset of your inner most feelings. 

In the beginning of us communicating, my husband would ask me a question that should of been an easy yes or no and I as your wife would give the dear in headlights look. 

I was worried that first if I said the wrong thing we would have world war III and second if we didn't fight I would say something that would hurt his ego or our relationship. I found that I like him to be dominate and I like the role of submissive and he had always wanted me to take the dominate role, so now we take turns. 

He would ask what I like and I could not answer, again worried about the repercussion of what I said, so I would say nothing. 

took awhile but now we talk about all kinds of stuff including and not limited to having sex in public places etc.  We are having fun and were are talking instead of holding back. 

Try communicating and start with sharing something with her to help her open up.


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## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

Has nothing to do with attraction, She does just not like sex all that much. It would not matter what you looked like or who you where.

She might be sexually interested in the courtship period and then goes into her normal standby mode regardless of who she is with.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

usmarriedguy said:


> Has nothing to do with attraction, She does just not like sex all that much. It would not matter what you looked like or who you where.
> 
> She might be sexually interested in the courtship period and then goes into her normal standby mode regardless of who she is with.


If she had a friend group of sexual adventerous female friends, she wouldn't try to out compete them and recieve transferrences from their personalities to help your situation out?


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Big Dude said:


> Great minds think alike. I said almost exactly those words to her Monday night, when she suggested sex the night before my surgery (no A game then...her eyes were dead.)


So what did she say?



> When I asked her what do you think we should do, she didn't say anything. She never does. I just see a deer in headlights look.


What did you say when she did not respond? Did you suggest anything?

How do you two handle conflict? When she gets upset over something you do, what happens? Does she let you know right away, soon after, or does she let it build? How does she let you know? Is she calm, is there an explosion, is she passive aggressive? How does she fight? Is she fair and on topic, or does she bring up old things from years ago?


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## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

"...with less fakery, dishonesty, and game playing."

She probably assumed that that is what you needed to be happy. Who wants to have sex with someone who does not enjoy it?

So she has tried to make you happy because she loves you and if it has taken you 27 years to figure it out she must have done a fairly good job.

And you call that fakery? 
I would call it doing her best to make a happy marriage. 

But anyway, I doubt she will miss the sex so as long as that is actually want you want than might as well stop.


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## Big Dude (Feb 24, 2013)

usmarriedguy said:


> Has nothing to do with attraction, She does just not like sex all that much. It would not matter what you looked like or who you where.


This sounds plausible given the circumstances. Let's assume that this is the case. Now what? I see a racy movie, a pretty woman, a knothole in a fence...and I'm raring to go! But put my naked wife in front of me and its.....pssssssssssssssssst.

Next move?


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## Big Dude (Feb 24, 2013)

usmarriedguy;6438065Who wants to have sex with someone who does not enjoy it?
But anyway said:


> Exactly. Exactly.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

What was your wife's sexual life like before the two of you got together? Was she inexperienced? From a religious or otherwise very conservative home? Does she orgasm at all through any means, either alone or with you?


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

Before cutting her off I would ask he if that what she wants. Perhaps this would force some dialog, especially if you say you think it would be best under the circumstances.

I see where you are coming from because I would prefer no sex to pity sex. I also feel for her somewhat as it seems she has tried to meet your needs and has not let you go sexless as many here find themselves. She has tried - not sure if this is a divorceable offense or not.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Big Dude said:


> PBear, I guess what I'm thinking is this plan might improve my shredded self-respect, and the loss of lame 2-way duty sex isn't much of a minus.



We beat this subject to death in my thread a few days ago. This type of sex simply legitimizes the marriage in my view. Skip it for your peace of mind and if she asks tell her why...


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## gumtree (Jun 1, 2013)

I'd still be concerned you are misinterpreting your wife. Are the sighs and clock watching a few isolated incidents you are using to 'build your case' or a regular feature of sex? I find it strange that you would be the 'kissy-huggy' couple yet she feels no desire for you, since physical affection would seem to spill over to the bedroom at some point. If I was your wife and you started raising this issue when I had thought everything was going nicely for 27 years I would be very concerned and insecure, wondering where this suddenly came from...

If you could change your sex life with your wife, how would she be?
Do you want loving, connected sex she's trying to offer rom a vanilla loving woman (more-or-less what you described) or hot bestial porn action? Because perhaps it's YOUR dissatisfaction you are projecting on to her and it's knocking her sideways. 

I wish you the very best in resolving this - it doesn't sound totally broken yet, but I think you need to analyze your own thoughts, actions and motives more than your wife's in this case. It probably isn't a physical issue here - sounds like you had no problems being attracted to your naked wife until this started boiling away in your head. Please dont give up yet - there has to be a solution to get some passion back for the woman you have spent 27 years with!


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## Big Dude (Feb 24, 2013)

Rowan said:


> What was your wife's sexual life like before the two of you got together? Was she inexperienced? From a religious or otherwise very conservative home? Does she orgasm at all through any means, either alone or with you?


I know nothing of her sexual experiences before me. We started dating pretty young (about age 20) and she had some impressive moves right at the get go. Never really had that conversation.

There was nothing particularly religious or conservative about her upbringing. We both grew up in a comparatively conservative city. We were not repressed in any way that I would notice.

Yes, she is capable of orgasm. Faking was frequent but not all of the time. I have asked at times about orgasming alone, she never answered.


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## Big Dude (Feb 24, 2013)

MissScarlett said:


> Before cutting her off I would ask he if that what she wants. Perhaps this would force some dialog, especially if you say you think it would be best under the circumstances.
> 
> I see where you are coming from because I would prefer no sex to pity sex. I also feel for her somewhat as it seems she has tried to meet your needs and has not let you go sexless as many here find themselves. She has tried - not sure if this is a divorceable offense or not.


In my mind, this is nowhere near a divorceable offense. My situation is not nearly as dire as many others who post on TAM.

I did ask her at first if she thought we should just quit, she said whatever you want to do. When she initiated sometime later, I thought it would be rude to turn her down, especially in light of her willingness throughout our marriage. Maybe that was a mistake and conveyed that I was OK with the situation. Who knows?


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## Big Dude (Feb 24, 2013)

gumtree said:


> I'd still be concerned you are misinterpreting your wife. Are the sighs and clock watching a few isolated incidents you are using to 'build your case' or a regular feature of sex? I find it strange that you would be the 'kissy-huggy' couple yet she feels no desire for you, since physical affection would seem to spill over to the bedroom at some point. If I was your wife and you started raising this issue when I had thought everything was going nicely for 27 years I would be very concerned and insecure, wondering where this suddenly came from...
> 
> If you could change your sex life with your wife, how would she be?
> Do you want loving, connected sex she's trying to offer rom a vanilla loving woman (more-or-less what you described) or hot bestial porn action? Because perhaps it's YOUR dissatisfaction you are projecting on to her and it's knocking her sideways.
> ...


The signs were always there, but for the longest time I chalked them up to fatigue or work stress or whatever else in the individual moment. I was blissfully ignorant of the pattern.

If I could change our sex life, what I would like to see is enthusiasm, feedback, and just once a suggestion from her on what she might enjoy. I don't have my heart set on any particular activity. Plain vanilla with some gusto would go a long way with me.

I thought at first that there must be some way to improve all this. That taking time to get over my resentment, communicating to the best of my ability, and being available to listen should eventually get us to a better place. But I'm feeling now that these things have changed nothing over 9 months and are unlikely to change in the future unless I do something different.

I need to bear in mind that I'm pretty messed up at the moment. My manly area looks and feels like I've had an inappropriate relationship with a wood chipper, and I'm gobbling percosets like candy. Maybe when I heal up I'll man up and realize that there might just be more important things to deal with.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Big Dude, with all due respect, a lot of members of the MMSL (merchant marine sex life) club here would think that it is a divorceable offense. She simply finds a number that time and time again has been proven to be frequent enough to not cause a husband to outright walk out but infrequent enough to obliterate any possibility for a real emotional connection.

My story in a nutshell is that we went thru 25 good years then she was diagnosed with BPD, and decided physical intimacy was overrated.... We had 3-4 years of awesome but monthly encounters at which point it became clear to me that it was all a parody of a marriage. Right now we're following the NSSL (nuclear submarine sex life) and it does not seem to bother her all that much. To me it is pointless. 

I turned her down bunches of times last year and told her one simple example... If you want to keep grass growing, you need regular watering. Not once a month floods. 

Simply ignore her monthly advances and tell her why. In my case I'm still married for financial reasons (huge tuition bills) but even then I'm not interested in playing house. It's simply not worth it.

This is something that MC could help with....


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Women are not men. They don't think about sex they way men think about sex.

All men she ever met wanted sex from her. So what is special about you wanting sex from her? Is sex a special bond to a woman who got propositioned for sex from hundreds of men in her life? You on the other hand want sex from every woman you meet. And only a very few give it to you.... Therefore to a man sex is a special bond.

There is just so much biological and social conditioning that drives women to think about sex very differently then men.

What you need to do is accept your wife for who she is. Women are not just going to admit to being into sex. It's been taught to them that sex is wrong and dangerous.

You have to judge your wife on is she the type of wife who will try to meet her husband's needs to the best of her ability? And, you cannot put thoughts into her head. You cannot tell her to "highly desire sex with you". You should not be thinking about or probing her on this. It will only drive your own insecurity. Her rational mind will answer all of this, whereas a woman's sex drive is situational and responsive.

What you have to do is look at things you do for your wife to make her life better, things you would not do of your own accord. Perhaps it's making your bed. IF you were living on your own perhaps you would not make your bed. But in your marriage you make your bed because your wife apprecaites it. Does that make you a fake or a phony or a bad husband? No!!! Doing nice things for your wife becuase she is your wife is the very definition of LOVE.

So you have to accept within the process of marriage that your wife be allowed to LOVE you by purposely doing actions that are for your benefit.

And you should manage her attidude with respect to the situation of sex. You need to teach her that ATTITUDE shown is just as important as the ACTIONS themselves. Use examples where you did somethign for your wife, but did it with a poor attidude. Example, she asked you to take out the garbage. You did it but complained that you hate taking out the garbage. And then you felt like a jackass because you actually "did what she wanted" but noticed she was "still mad".... And related that to her sighing, not showing interest in sex.... So the attitude, the way in which needs are met are of prime importance. 

YOu have to manage the thought processes in your marriage to what it means to be a husband, what it means to be a wife, and stay out of these gutters where you think a bunch of negative thoughts about her.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

I agree with kingsfan.

When I briefly cut off sex, it hurt me much more than my wife. Everything got worse.My mind was messing with me. 
Desire is a weird thing. 

OP...27 years is a long time to throw away. Think about what will happen when sex stops completely.

If your ready to move on and D because you both lost desire for each other, that's fine. At least you can continue to have sex until that timre comes. You never know, it may get better when sex loses the emotional aspect and it just becomes a physical release for you.

Your wife loves you enough to have regular sex. Have regular sex with her and work on the 180 to find other ways to fill that lack of desire you feel from your wife.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Sorry to ask these again, but I think the answers could assist you.



> Great minds think alike. I said almost exactly those words to her Monday night, when she suggested sex the night before my surgery (no A game then...her eyes were dead.)


So what did she say?



> When I asked her what do you think we should do, she didn't say anything. She never does. I just see a deer in headlights look.


What did you say when she did not respond? Did you suggest anything?

How do you two handle conflict? When she gets upset over something you do, what happens? Does she let you know right away, soon after, or does she let it build? How does she let you know? Is she calm, is there an explosion, is she passive aggressive? How does she fight? Is she fair and on topic, or does she bring up old things from years ago?

Finally, has she ever indicated a desire for sex? Verbalized that she found someone sexy apart from you? A celebrity or athelete?


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## Big Dude (Feb 24, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Sorry to ask these again, but I think the answers could assist you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

Big Dude said:


> Maybe that was a mistake and conveyed that I was OK with the situation. Who knows?


I still do not understand what your ideal outcome would be.

You say that maybe you should just stop initiating and so you did not but she did initiate and you accepted. 

Doesn't that meet your criteria of not initiating sex any more?


There are several possible outcomes here:
A. No more sex because neither of you want it
B. Sex only when she initiates (and she knows it is not necessary)
C. What ever has been standard practice the last several years.
D. Either can initiate but at a pace which is optimal for her
E. All the sudden she starts liking sex more than she has for the past 27 years

Baring miracles, E will probably not happen but she may be able to improve how well she makes you feel desired. Just have her work on the things you do not like (no clock watching) 

It seems to me that if you are willing to just give up sex entirely than it really must not be all that important to you. 

But D might be an optimal outcome. Maybe she really enjoys sex once a month (+ or - assuming the particular time is good) and she can work to communicate her enthusiasm more.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

> She is generally very direct, as am I. When we have a conflict we get on it instantly. No shouting, but sometimes intense. She never fights unfairly. Sometimes one of us admits wrongdoing and apologizes. Sometimes we just have to agree to disagree.


So she is comfortable disagreeing with you as well telling you things that you won’t like? If so, I am curious why she won’t dispute your conclusions as how attracted she is to you. It seems odd that she ignores those comments and statements by you.

I don't think it is unreasonable to wonder if she does not want to tell you something that she knows you will not like. I would ask her to go to marriage counseling with you in view of your earlier discussion. If she won't go, consider individual counseling to help you focus on what you want, what is acceptable, and how to best achieve it.



> Oh yes, she is comfortable telling me when she finds a man attractive. Doesn't happen often, but it happens. I do the same. I consider things like that to be healthy.


Do her comments indicate any excitement over that person? Are they almost lustful, or more matter of fact that a guy is good looking?


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

Big Dude said:


> I know nothing of her sexual experiences before me. We started dating pretty young (about age 20) and she had some impressive moves right at the get go. Never really had that conversation.
> 
> There was nothing particularly religious or conservative about her upbringing. We both grew up in a comparatively conservative city. We were not repressed in any way that I would notice.
> 
> Yes, she is capable of orgasm. Faking was frequent but not all of the time. I have asked at times about orgasming alone, she never answered.


Big d

Am sorry I did not notice your thread in January. How are things going with you now?

A couple of my thoughts __
I don't think you are misinterpreting anything or have misconstrued
Anything. Sounds like you know better than anyone how your wife feels about you, feels about sex and about sex with you.
But given the revelations over the past year on the subject, I highly recommend you do ask her to tell you about her sexual experiences prior to you. I think it is unusual for a husband to be completely without information on his wife's prior sex life. Under your circumstances I think you should now view that as crucial information, info you absolutely need. If her inability to communicate on this stuff is that pronounced then you may need to have the conversation facilitated by a M counselor. 

I do agree with your idea of stopping sex with her, at least for the time being. But I don't think your marriage will be sustainable in the long run if that is how things remain. I think your ability to manage your self-esteem, as you put it, will eventually require either a renewed sexual desire from her or a new marriage partner for you.


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## Big Dude (Feb 24, 2013)

I'm doing OK. After thinking about all of the replies on this thread I've decided against a no sex strategy. Instead my plan is to have no plan, other than being true to myself. So when she initiates, I politely decline if I'm not feeling it (which is most of the time) or accept if it looks like it might have a chance of being even moderately fun. Seems to be working for me. As for her, who knows? I just have to accept the fact that I never will.

I've got two more years before our son goes off to college. Maybe at that point I'll weigh the options regarding greener pastures. But for now I've decided to focus as much as I can on the good things and practice stoicism in regard to my sex life.


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## hartvalve (Mar 15, 2014)

Interesting read. 

I agree with asking a spouse about their prior sexual history, and their perspective on sexual activity, period-- Whether or not they've personally been sexually intimate with anyone other than the spouse. Something may have occurred during childhood or during adolescent years that may set up roadblocks unconsciously when it comes to physical sex? Knowing your potential spouse's TRUE mindset concerning sex is detrimental to the health of a marriage. The lusty stages of courtship sometimes blurs the lines of what is real and not so real. A pair often believe they can conquer all (revealed negatives) about the other during the hot and lusty phase of courtship, only to become shipwrecked once the rose colored glasses are removed.

I personally hate duty sex, but there are some couples who cope well with their arrangement. More power to them. I prefer being connected, heart, soul and mind if my body will be involved with the sexual act, but then again that's me. 

I've found some women, like the original poster described, who are completely satisfied with, just believing their husband desire them by he making sensual jabs at being sexually attracted to them, who seldom have sexual intercourse. When I say seldom, I mean so seldom even seldom is an exaggeration. 

Ironically, I am in contact with a woman who's life is in such great turmoil as I write-- Whom I asked many questions to, concerning her sexual intimacy activity with her husband. Her response seemed to be about controlling her world more than anything else I could pick up on. Sensual activity that led short of sexual activity was all a game of duty for her. She wanted the marriage arrangement to remain intact, so she mastered acts of sensuality without sex. Sort of like what I described in the prior paragraph- The just enough to get by with, without-going-all-the-way, type settling for. Or raising suspicions. (Obviously the original poster wasn't buying it though after catching on.)

I would strongly suggest wanting to and getting to know a potential lifetime mates' mindset on sex before signing a marriage contract, That kind of information is vital in my opinion, because sex is a whole lot more than "doing it". Animals do it and it seems most of their doing is "booty duty" work. 

Seriously. The reasons for low libido, I believe can run the gamut. The mind controls the body's sexual temperature. There are some who feel after the phase of lust has gone, what else is there except to continue romancing the stone? With hopes, the stone becomes flesh again like it once was! 

I still hate duty sex... But- 

Never quit trying for sexual connecting with your body, mind and soul if full sexual intimacy is something you really desire with your spouse.


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