# Resistance to (Joint) Savings



## john121212 (Jun 14, 2017)

My wife and I get along great in most respects, and I’m very (!) attracted to her, although we have had and continue to have many difficult situations, mostly due to her ex, the father of her older son, who has apparently taken it on himself to make our lives as hard as possible. We have a son together too.

There’s an issue though that’s dividing us and I’d be interested in what other people think.

When we first got together over five years ago, I had a good amount of savings (about $60,000) and she didn’t have much. Over the years I spent on the family and on her (including very significant amount of legal fees against her ex). This was particularly true when her mother (my mother-in-law) passed away about a year ago. I knew her mother left a significant inheritance behind, so instead of burdenning my wife so I took over all our expenses (both our usual, and those related to taking care of her mother’s affairs) as I figured we’d settle up after we got through the bureaucratic matters needed to get her mother’s bank account and properties.

As I result, I got the point where I had no savings of my own. Literally nothing. But to my surprise, my wife is very resistant to help me build savings. It’s true that our combined expenses are roughly equal to our combined income (including rent on her properties and return on investments with the liquid assets she inherited), so we don’t have ‘left over’ money to spend, but I’ve tried to suggest that some amount per month (I’ve suggest 20% of my net salary, which is what is usually recommended for savings) to be saved for me, even it means that as a result some of of our expenses would need to be paid out of her savings 
- which, now, with her inheritance, is quite large. To save 20% of my net salary would be less than 1% of her assets per year. I’ve even suggest that we could transfer it to a joint account, in which we would put savings for me and also some of hers. She’s very resistant to agree to do this for any significant amount (the amount she suggests is more like 7% of my net salary, which is far below what is recommended - and recall, I currently have nothing).

I’ve found myself rather hurt by all of this. When I was the one with savings, I spent all my money for her (including, as I said, most of her legal expenses), until I had nothing. Now that her assets are more than a dozen times as much as I had to begin with, I can’t get her to put aside any decent amount of savings in my name (or even in our names). When I said I had spent particular selflessly after her mother had died, she asked me “What, did you expect to be paid back?”

On the one hand, I know partly why she is hesitant. She’s afraid I may use the money one day to leave her. I can’t say I haven’t thought about it with the huge amount of problems her ex makes for us, but I’m not thinking of doing it, especially since we have a son together.

Of course, I realize (and she probably realizes) that it is true that having a savings for myself is an ‘insurance policy’ in case we would ever separate - just as some couples sign pre-nups - but that is very different than saying I’m thinking of doing it now. It’s like buying insurance.

But I’m still very hurt that she’s so hesitant to let me have a decent savings of my own, especially after I spent everything I had. I would have thought she would have been happy to pay me back part of what I spent, and then to let me save a decent amount also; but I can’t get either. It feels like she wants to have me in a situation where I stay in the marriage because I don’t have savings, and not because I want to.

Thoughts?


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Cut her off financially. Pay none of her bills, give her no money, remove her from any joint credit cards, etc. Until she is willing to put something into joint savings, and pay towards joint expenses, she is using you. Don't tolerate it any longer. Don't bother being hurt - fix it.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

Thoughts?

well my thoughts are that especially as second time marriages you guys should have been smarter about getting pre marriage legal input and set up an agreement then. Did you even discuss issues about money and finances before getting married?

We possibly live in different countries but where I live the law is very precarious in some of these issues so MrH and I sought in depth legal advise prior to living together (here defacto comes into play after only 6 months of co habitation and we both have a lot to protect financially). The sort of legal agreement we have needs to be confirmed every few years to give it more legal strength. Even with all of this in place it is vital that couples understand if they are on the same page with financial issues pre marriage. TBH I would not marry someone who wasn't.

Why can't you just have your own savings account?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

This should have been worked out before you were married. But from where you are, my recommendation:

All new income goes into a NEW joint account. All common bills (mortgage, utilities, food etc) are paid out of that account. This account can be linked to a NEW joint savings account. You have to agree on the savings rate for that account.

You each have your own "fun" account and get an allowance into that account from the main account. Each of you can spend your allowance on whatever you want.

Her money stays separate - for now. If you manage your money well, she will become comfortable with the idea that you are in this together and will allow her separate savings to be combined into a joint account.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

You should have had this conversation before (or at least during) your savings were getting drained. Can't believe it didn't come up. She should have been saying things like, thanks so much for helping with blank, blank, blank, I will pay you back with the inheritance.

If you can show her what you spent on her and her mother's affairs, then she should be paying you back. Not contributing so much per month. 

Should be as simple as, Hey, you came into the marriage with $60,000 and I contributed nothing. Now that I have this inheritance, here is your $60,000 back.

If she isn't willing to do that, then she isn't being a partner. She has been using you.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

Send her a boll for the money you spent directly on her issues with legal....and then once she pays that, keep it separate from then on.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Let me take a stab at this one, though I haven't thought it through completely.

There's His Money, Her Money, and Joint Money in any marriage. There are His Expenses, Her Expenses, and Joint Expenses. You went into the marriage with a lot of savings, while she had none. She also brought in a large repetitive need for money to deal with her legal issues, which are Her Expenses, not Joint Expenses.

She treated His Money as Joint Money. You did too, without any worries. You were even very generous in fronting the money for her late mother's expenses, which were your wife's obligation (or her mother's estate's obligation), not yours. You were viewing all the assets as Joint Money, but she was not. She was looking at your money as Joint Money, and Her Money as Her Money.

Now she has inherited a very large amount of money, she wants to keep it all as Her Money. Basically, when she had no money she wanted all assets to be available to her for her obligations as well as for her enjoyment (lifestyle). Now she wants to keep all assets as Her Money.

This just seems very selfish and uncaring. She should be willing to pay back all of her legal fees and whatever was fronted for her late mother's expenses, as those are clearly Her Expenses, not Joint Expenses. As far as your money which was spent on joint expenses like housing etc, I think that money is not something you can ask for back.

But, you should not be now paying more than 50% of family expenses. I would also not pay for her son's expenses for things like a car, college, expensive musical instruments, etc. If she is receiving child support from her ex, there should be some allocation of it into the family expenses. She should pay more than 50% of the mortgage, groceries, health insurance, etc because she is getting money from the boy's father specifically to pay for those items.

In terms of basic finances, you should be putting at least 15% of your gross pay into a retirement account of some sort. She doesn't have to because she has almost enough from her inheritance to fund a retirement. She may need to save 5% or something like that, but not as much as you.

I think the divorce angle may be on her mind but you can sidestep that by perhaps bringing all of this up in terms of an overall financial plan as well as how it seems she is being cheap or selfish by keeping the large inheritance after having depleted all of your life savings.

Dave Ramsey has a good book and a good financial planning class called Financial Peace University which you can take locally. It could be a good framework to use to approach your wife. I am also a big fan of Tony Robbins' book "Money, Master the Game" as an addition to Dave Ramsey's stuff.

Her inheritance is legally hers as long as it is in her name. She should keep it in her name, too. But, she is wrong to not be reimbursing you for all the money you used to pay for HER expenses. She should give you whatever that amount is for you to put back into your own name, separate from her. This way you retain the assets you brought into the marriage, and she retains her inheritance, in case of divorce.

Also, with that amount of money and probably some life insurance, she needs some very good estate planning. I have a trust, which protects my estate and ensures it goes where I want it to. When there are kids, ex spouses, etc, it is important to have a trust done by a good local attorney (not an online form) who specializes in estate trusts. It will cost about $1k to $2k in lawyer fees, which is well worth it to keep her ex from getting hold of the money or her kids blowing the money if they inherit it at a young age.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I think that you should just tell her that yes, you expect to be paid back for the expenses for settling her mother's affairs. That money is supposed to come out of her mother's estate. So yes she needs to pay you back.

What percentage of your joint income is she bringing in? 

You need to be able to save money. If she will not come to an agreement on some plan that allows you be build up savings, then I think you need to separate your income and only pay for a percentage of monthly expenses.

For example there are 4 people living in your home. That means mortgage is divided 4 says. She needs to cover the 25% for her son. Then you and she split the remaining 3/4's according to the percentage of income that each of you makes.

You might want to see a financial planner who can help you come up with this kind of plan in detail. 

I completely agree with her that she needs to keep her inheritance separate. But she should pay you back for her legal fees for her son and for the cost of settling her mother's estate.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

It might be a legal issue. Here, if you get an inheritance it is not marital property. If any part of the inheritance is mingled with marital funds things start to get murky. Depending how it's done, mingling any inheritance money might make all inheritance money marital property and subject to 50/50 asset division in a divorce. She may be avoiding putting any of the inheritance into a joint account because she doesn't want it all to become marital property.

Whatever reason she has, I, too, think you should tell her you expect her to pay you back her legal fees and the fees related to her mother's passing. She doesn't have to mingle the money to do it, she can just write you a check and include why on the notation line.


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## john121212 (Jun 14, 2017)

Thanks for all the replies. I should clarify (although I wrote it) that currently, our expenses are roughly equal to our joint income. I imagine this will change in the future (she is currently studying, not working, and my pay will increase with rank and seniority - I'm an assistant professor in the UK, just started, salaries not at the beginning.)

So, it is true that I am expecting effectively that she either give me a little money for my own savings now (out of her extensive savings) or, if you want to look at it differently, that she currently pay a larger part of the bills (like I did for the past years, not to mention legal expenses and all).

My question is basically does this arrangement - where, effectively, for a few years, she's giving me something out of her inheritance (as I said, it can be into a joint savings), in light of that I spent all my savings on her/her son/our son/wrapping on her mother's affairs?

PS. Yes, you are right we should have spoken about these issues before. I just didn't imagine she would be resistant...


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

In retrospect, now you know you should have discussed money matters with her before you got involved (married). It's a lesson learned, consider it as such. 

I agree with others. You need to state clearly that yes, you expect to be paid back or paid for certain things by X date. If desired you can offer her a payment plan, as long as you enforce it. 

I owed my mother half a year of college tuition, because it was agreed before I even started as a lesson to learn to value the cost of education. I had no issue with the agreement, after all, half a year of tuition doesn't come close to the years of payments prior, and she offered me a payment plan of 3 installments, which I delivered on time. The fact is, she wasn't afraid to state clearly that it was her expectation, then she followed up 10 years after I had graduated and had my own savings accumulated. 

I put myself through grad school, paid out of pocket. I never asked her for money, although I told her that instead of birthday/Christmas presents she should donate that money toward my grad school fund, which she has done.. A couple hundred here and there, which has paid for textbooks.

I suppose the point I am trying to make is that your wife likely never had much and now wants to keep it for herself. She's likely never felt indebted because she was never called on to pay back what was given to her. I personally cannot stand knowing I owe someone money, even $1. Even to my husband... Which he laughs at because he believes all money in a relationship is fungible. I must pay it back immediately.

Maybe your wife doesn't feel the same. Maybe she has assumed that you're there to provide and she does not owe you. It's for you to clearly state your needs in this relationship and then make a decision on what you will do based on her reaction.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

maybe this is why she divorced . shes a selfish person she accepted your help and doesn't want to pay you back.

I give her one more chance to square up with you and then I would get my ducks in a row.


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## john121212 (Jun 14, 2017)

No, I can tell you for sure that her ex is a psycho.....it's only because she was young an inexperienced that she didn't leave sooner. He left shortly after their son was born.


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## ArgleBargle (Dec 31, 2015)

Keeping a separate account as "insurance" in case you divorce means that you are not actually committed to the relationship. You are already setting up an exit strategy because you are not married in your heart.


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

To me it sounds like you had "your" savings right along. It was "your" money, not joint or shared. You were nice enough to pay legal and mother's bills, but you always considered that money "yours".

Now she has money and is doing the same thing. It's "her" money, just as the $60K was "your" money.

Should she repay you for the $60K you spent on her legal bills and her mother? Yes. But beyond that you have already established that there's "your" money so you can't fight her for "her" money.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

yeah but what i am hearing from you is she believes in what is your is ours and what is mine is mine...that does not bow well in a marriage. What i specific is that up to now you have have had financial power in the marriage and now that she has inherited this money she now has it and wants to change the rules favoring her. Curious did you marry one of your students?


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## john121212 (Jun 14, 2017)

No, not a student.


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## john121212 (Jun 14, 2017)

I think I have to disagree with the one who said that if I want savings for myself too it means I'm 'not married in my heart'. Having savings in case the marriage dissolves in the future does NOT mean one is not committed now. It means one is realistic, and knows that marriages do dissolve even in the best cases.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Have you specifically asked her to repay you for the support you provided? Have you asked her to take on a larger portion of the bills? If you have, and she's refused, then look at who is paying what now, and find ways to cut expenses that you pay so that you can save. Or, you can tell her that unless she contributes more, that she needs to leave, and then file for divorce. How serious are you about this? Yes, it unfair and unreasonable that you've taken on the burdens, and not be made whole when she has the ability to do so. Perhaps she's not sufficiently committed to this relationship to be a real partner.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

levygametheory said:


> I think I have to disagree with the one who said that if I want savings for myself too it means I'm 'not married in my heart'. Having savings in case the marriage dissolves in the future does NOT mean one is not committed now. It means one is realistic, and knows that marriages do dissolve even in the best cases.


I agree with you. Especially since this is a second marriage for her, and you brought in a sizable amount of savings.

I got married right out of college. I owned a stereo and a car. She owned a stereo and a car. Nothing to worry about in terms of our later divorce. But for people like you, of course you want to protect your assets you brought into the marriage. And of course she wants to protect her bio son's future rights wrt her inheritance. Divorce is a possibility in every marriage, so you reasonably protect yourself to be able to get out with what you had if divorce does happen.

Alternatively, you could take the approach that all assets and expenses from day 1 become joint property. This would include not only your savings, but any future gains to include inheritances, lottery tickets, legal expenses from previous marriages, etc.

Either way would work. But it seems she wanted the benefit of all assets being joint when she had no assets but lots of expenses. Now that she has lots of assets she suddenly wants to revert back to a separation of assets.

Nowadays I am a proponent of both people contributing an agreed upon portion of the expenses, and both having their own savings. If both spouses work, they should both be responsible towards financial health of the family including saving for large purchases (house, cars, college funds) and retirement. Too often, one spouse is a spender, or one spouse chooses to be a bit lazy about earning. This isn't about each having an escape fund, it is about each feeling responsibility.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Though divorce is not on the table at the moment, I think you may have a claim to getting reimbursed for the legal fees and her mom's estate expenses if you did get divorced. Courts tend to like to restore each person to the position they were in when they came into the marriage. Of course the specific laws are all important, but it would be logically very unfair to you if you were to leave the marriage with nothing while she leaves with a fortune.

Basically, I would say don't despair at this point about how you might fare if you do divorce in the future.

This would be a good opportunity to establish a more formal agreement on a fair distribution of expenses and income. And that should be a positive to the marriage.


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## john121212 (Jun 14, 2017)

Married but Happy said:


> Have you specifically asked her to repay you for the support you provided? Have you asked her to take on a larger portion of the bills? If you have, and she's refused, then look at who is paying what now, and find ways to cut expenses that you pay so that you can save. Or, you can tell her that unless she contributes more, that she needs to leave, and then file for divorce. How serious are you about this? Yes, it unfair and unreasonable that you've taken on the burdens, and not be made whole when she has the ability to do so. Perhaps she's not sufficiently committed to this relationship to be a real partner.


No one's talking about divorce, relax, I was just asking for thoughts how people few the situation. I'm sure we'll work it out, and I wanted the perspective of others sort of 'what is reasonable'.

As I said, as it is our expenses roughly equal our income, so the reason I'm asking is because making a savings on my part would mean that, effectively - but just for the time being until we get more income - she would be giving me a very small fraction of her inheritence (about 2/3 of a percent per year). But as I said, I think it's fair since I had a decent amount to begin with and spent it all, much of it on expenses involving her son or her mother's passing.


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## happysnappy (Jan 8, 2013)

I could make this all about what you already should have done but that's useless. Let's talk about what you need to do. 

#1. Stop calling it yours and hers. Start using the word "ours" because that's what it is. 

You chose to spend your savings to help her that's on you. 

#2. Your attitude of a backup plan would not make me want to share any account with you

#3. You need to decide if you are in or out and start speaking and behaving accordingly. Your wife feels no confidence in you right now. Money issues are the result of a much bigger problem 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## john121212 (Jun 14, 2017)

happysnappy said:


> I could make this all about what you already should have done but that's useless. Let's talk about what you need to do.
> 
> #1. Stop calling it yours and hers. Start using the word "ours" because that's what it is.
> 
> ...


Um, would you feel comfortable being in a marriage if you had no savings in your name, just in your spouse's name? If you're 'in' the marriage, that what does matter whose name it is in? I'm sure you wouldn't feel comfortable with that, and it's because everyone knows that even in the best circumstances, marriages can fall apart, and you don't want to be in the position later where you find yourself staying in the marriage because you feel trapped financially, but because you want to be in it and work on it for its own sake.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

happysnappy said:


> I could make this all about what you already should have done but that's useless. Let's talk about what you need to do.
> 
> #1. Stop calling it yours and hers. Start using the word "ours" because that's what it is.
> 
> ...


She felt enough confidence to let him help her out with his money! If she was worth a bag of dildos she would want to pay him back.


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## happysnappy (Jan 8, 2013)

levygametheory said:


> Um, would you feel comfortable being in a marriage if you had no savings in your name, just in your spouse's name? If you're 'in' the marriage, that what does matter whose name it is in? I'm sure you wouldn't feel comfortable with that, and it's because everyone knows that even in the best circumstances, marriages can fall apart, and you don't want to be in the position later where you find yourself staying in the marriage because you feel trapped financially, but because you want to be in it and work on it for its own sake.




My point was it should be in both names. Not one or the other. And I wouldn't be comfortable any other way. I was the one with the savings and no I'm not bitter that it all went to put a down payment on our home or that I put his exes debt in my name to pay it off or that I helped pay for his 10k in attorney fees or his kids counseling. I could go on and on. I've been married and divorced and I know you can lose it all. Been there. You're either in or you're out 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

happysnappy said:


> My point was it should be in both names. Not one or the other. And I wouldn't be comfortable any other way. I was the one with the savings and no I'm not bitter that it all went to put a down payment on our home or that I put his exes debt in my name to pay it off or that I helped pay for his 10k in attorney fees or his kids counseling. I could go on and on. I've been married and divorced and I know you can lose it all. Been there. You're either in or you're out
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If that works for you then great.

I would never comingle the money I earn with anyone ever again. I earn i will decide what to do with it.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

happysnappy said:


> My point was it should be in both names. Not one or the other. And I wouldn't be comfortable any other way. I was the one with the savings and no I'm not bitter that it all went to put a down payment on our home or that I put his exes debt in my name to pay it off or that I helped pay for his 10k in attorney fees or his kids counseling. I could go on and on. I've been married and divorced and I know you can lose it all. Been there. You're either in or you're out


Are you advocating her inheritance go in both names? In my marriage this is what I did with a relatively small inheritance of mine (a few tens of thousands of dollars), and with a workers comp award (a few thousand dollars). I always looked at it as Our Money. At one point I expected an inheritance of several million dollars, which has since been stolen by the relative's second wife, but I always looked at it as if it would be Our Money whenever it came through.

But then reality hit with the divorce. Her financial infidelity and her attitude about her imminent large inheritance (about a million) blew my lifelong beliefs out of the water.

Thus I now agree with chillymorn in the unlikely event I ever remarry:



chillymorn69 said:


> If that works for you then great.
> 
> I would never comingle the money I earn with anyone ever again. I earn i will decide what to do with it.


First marriages and their demise teach us a lot of lessons. I sure was stupid and naive.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

Thor said:


> Are you advocating her inheritance go in both names? In my marriage this is what I did with a relatively small inheritance of mine (a few tens of thousands of dollars), and with a workers comp award (a few thousand dollars). I always looked at it as Our Money. At one point I expected an inheritance of several million dollars, which has since been stolen by the relative's second wife, but I always looked at it as if it would be Our Money whenever it came through.
> 
> But then reality hit with the divorce. Her financial infidelity and her attitude about her imminent large inheritance (about a million) blew my lifelong beliefs out of the water.
> 
> ...


qtf

once burned twice learned.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

I think it is clear that she cannot be depended on to treat you fairly so lay down what it is you want.

You set up your own account and pay 50% for your son and 50% of joint expenses, 100% your expenses, pay nothing toward her expenses or her sons. Tell her that since she is not agreeable to assist you to build up your savings after you have spent everything on her, you no longer wish to assist her. She chose this approach so you will follow this approach.

She will be forced to use her savings to make up the short fall.

Remember two can play at that game, be a man and stand up to her.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

SadSamIAm said:


> If you can show her what you spent on her and her mother's affairs, then she should be paying you back. Not contributing so much per month.
> 
> Should be as simple as, Hey, you came into the marriage with $60,000 and I contributed nothing. Now that I have this inheritance, here is your $60,000 back.
> 
> If she isn't willing to do that, then she isn't being a partner. She has been using you.


This exactly. To have a source of significant wealth that she can't even share with the guy who was there when she had nothing, means she is interested in herself above all else.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Thor said:


> This would be a good opportunity to establish a more formal agreement on a fair distribution of expenses and income. And that should be a positive to the marriage.


At a minimum, he will know where she stands by her reaction to this request. That in itself would be worth it.


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