# Libido clash that I came here hoping to find a Black and White answer for...



## anon_4_now (Mar 23, 2011)

WARNING!!! This is LONG and disjointed. I write like I think.

First of all, I know that there are a TON of posts about this same subject on this site (and probably others). I came here looking for a black and white answer to how to handle my high libido vs my wife’s lack of one. I know now that there is no black and white answer. For my situation, there are not really any good hints that I haven’t tried for years. I have to lay it out first to ask my question. Below you will see he/she, husband/wife etc... Please understand that I am talking about the high libido/low libido spouse... whichever the gender.

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I remember catching a morning talk show years ago (don’t remember the host) where the first couple interviewed had the husband upset about the lack of sex from his wife. I don’t remember the exact words but the host all but called the husband an overbearing husband who couldn’t take his wife’s needs and lack of libido into account. From what I remember, I was kind of shocked because there wasn’t anything said about him being overbearing or aggressive etc… They both simply stated that he wanted it multiple times a week and she wanted maybe once a month and it was a major issue in their marriage. Then the next couple came on and it was reverse. The wife wanted sex more often than the husband. The host immediately asked the husband if he was gay. 

As a guy, I often feel as though the above scenario is what I should expect when I try to talk to people about the same issue in my life. It is my fault somehow and I am obviously not taking care of my end of the bargain. I’m not perfect but I’m also not gay or overbearing, where is the allowable middle ground?

I am married to my high school sweetheart. We have children, a good paying and stable job, a home, we talk, we hang out and watch tv together… we do all the stuff that roommates do. There is a great vacuum in the intimacy department though and I don’t know where else to make changes.

By “Intimacy”, I am saying that I would like to be able to feel connected to her again. Not just the physical act of having sex/making love. I want to rub her feet, have her rub mine, Rub her shoulders and back, have her rub mine, kiss her deeply, and be kissed back. Having sex and making love… I want that too but that is just a part of intimacy, not the whole. Right now, she will ask me to rub her back, her feet, her neck, {insert non erogenous body part here} and I will do that for hours. Because I love her and I want to bring her pleasure. But over time, I'd like to have it reciprocated. All I ever get in return is a thank you and a roommate who is a wonderful mother to our kids.

Before I proposed to her, we both knew we were in this for the long haul. The intimacy was great (if not perfect), we were best friends and were completely in tune to each other. At the time, she knew that I had a high libido as did she and we talked about the fact that intimacy and sex is very important to both of us and that we both agreed we would never allow it to cause a problem with each other. 

We were great for the 1 year engagement. We were great for the first 9 months of our marriage (yes, we had a kid 9 months after the honeymoon). That was the beginning of the end of intimacy and that was 15 years ago. Since our first child, we have been the full spectrum of the intimacy/sex scale. We have gone from no sex and barely speaking for 3 months as one extreme to swinging with another couple we knew from high school. (I mention the other couple just as a point of reference to the extreme we have gone, it is not in any way a reason for the lack of libido in my wife as we have thoroughly discussed this. We haven’t done this for a few years now but we both still believe this can be healthy as long as there is complete trust and disclosure about what is going on).

We think that this started as Post Partum Depression with our first child and over the past 15 years, it has developed into a “regular” type of depression. She refuses to go to a Dr to talk about this. She’s talked to the Dr about an anxiety issue and she takes meds for that now when she feels the need (as prescribed). But she won’t bring up the depression and her loss of libido. I know I’m not perfect but I believe this is 90% of the problem and I don’t understand why she doesn’t take any steps to fix it for US.

Over the past 15 years:
1. I have talked with her many times
2. I have asked her to tell me what I’m doing wrong many times (she states nothing)
3.	I have explained the importance of intimacy and sex to ME in our marriage and exactly how the lack of it effects me.
4.	I have asked her if she is having an affair and expending all of her intimacy somewhere else (she states no)
5.	I have written her two letters in detail about my needs asking what I can do differently to get them met (she states it’s not my problem it’s her)

So here we are in another trough that is probably the coldest trough that I don’t care to try to get out of. Sexually, she will touch me everywhere but any of my erogenous areas. She will lay her arm across my body when we lay down to sleep and have her hand an inch away from an area that would arouse me but will not move it an inch to bring me pleasure because she’s too tired but will talk to me for 30 more minutes. For a while, I’d masturbate in bed and she’d roll over and put her hand on my shoulder. I got very angry when she would do that and I’ve told her to not do it anymore. Makes me feel like she’s going “tsk tsk tsk you poor dumb bastard…” Now I go to the shower even though I’d be more comfortable in bed. Intimately, she only talks about the kids and how her mom is driving her nuts. 

Do I love her? ABSOLUTELY! I am building up resentment and can’t take anymore rejection so I am going to stop trying for intimacy. I am with her because she is still my friend and my children’s mother. I have thought about taking a medicine just to kill my libido but I don’t want to take a medicine to break me.

*What I’ve read in other posts here*
Many men *and* women have the exact same issue as I do. There are some who have stated that they’d rather have their spouse find a FWB than face the prospect of having sex with them. There are others who talk about a 180 plan that basically turns the spouse looking for intimacy into a soulless person who has zero compassion (how do people turn that off?!). I have read where some say divorce the spouse as though you can turn off love and put kids through turmoil where there is currently no fighting and my home and it is peaceful and fun for the kids. Others have posted letters they drafted to their spouse or will use as a talking point outline so that they cover all the bases only to be told they are whining. I have tried all of this including the modified 180 where I don’t give the intimacy she’s denying me (purely out of resentment) but I don’t leave her to go out with friends etc… We are raising our kids together and I’m not going to just expect her to handle it while I go out.

One hand the man should be more timid and show emotions, the other hand is saying the man should be the Alpha and take control. I will not grovel to my wife and I will not demand sex to just have her lay down and give me a hole to poke. I will admit that I am an Alpha at work and I think I am an Alpha at home that wants to make my wife happy in most things that I do. I honestly believe that if the wife isn’t happy, the family isn’t. Does that make me a Beta at home?

I read where many spouses (mostly the wife) state “get off the couch and help around the house.” This is a real sore spot of mine when I read it or hear it. [begin rant]I can assure you that If I do 100% of the housework, child care etc… I will be tired but I will still want to have intimate moments with my wife on a regular occasion. I was in the military on the front lines in Kuwait, Iraq, and for a short stint in Afghanistan. You really want to talk about the stress of working heavy labor the entire 16 – 19 hour day AND praying not to get shot. If my wife was there while I was deployed, I would have made love to her every night! I have made love to my wife while passing a kidney stone. Screw any headache you may have! Also, what about those of us who do get up and work alongside our spouses making dinner, cleaning the kitchen, putting kids to bed, doing laundry etc… and there is still no intimacy? I assure you my desire to help has dropped but not where my kids are concerned [/end rant].

I never understood how a man would cheat on their spouse until now. I don't think I would have any regrets if I did. In the military you see alot of men cheat for multiple reasons. I broke off friendships with each of them as I found out about them. I have made ammends with most of them since I have found myself in this situation.

More than anything, I want to be intimate with my wife again. If that turns out to not be possible, my second question is how do I deal with the resentment I am building up? I still love her and believe her when she says she loves me. I want to make this work.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

When you have sex with her you feel loved, satisfied and emotionally fulfilled. She does not feel this way from sex. She's just wired different than you. But there is something or things you can do that will make her feel loved, satisfied and a happy. And you can see it on her face. She can't articulate them. What are those things?


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## anon_4_now (Mar 23, 2011)

Hicks said:


> When you have sex with her you feel loved, satisfied and emotionally fulfilled. She does not feel this way from sex. She's just wired different than you. But there is something or things you can do that will make her feel loved, satisfied and a happy. And you can see it on her face. She can't articulate them. What are those things?


I honestly don't know. There has to be intimacy for me to be able to derive the current answer to this. 

In the past, it was buying her flowers for no reason, writting erotic stories about us, surprise date nights, rubbing her neck and shoulders, taking care of the kids even when she didn't "need a break". Cooking dinner when I beat her home. Walking up behind her and just putting my hands on her hips as I pull her back into me. I continued to do those things but there is nothing there for me to read and nothign reciprocated.

In discussions I've had with her where I am taking full responsibility for this (over her objections) I tell her that I am not a mind reader and I need feedback, I need the connection to know when I'm providing her with what I'm looking for so I know what to keep doing in the future. It always comes back to "it's not you, it's me" or "I love you and you make me feel like the most loved woman in the world". I even went as far as telling her that "I know I'm not the best husband but I am needing guidance from you or at the very least I need you to tell me when I do something right". That never happens though.

I fully understand what you're saying but I have no way to know what to do without her input now.

Four years ago, I made the decision to "Start from scratch". I (not "we" as she had no idea I was doing this) would act as though we just met and are going on our first date. I romanced her, asked all the "getting to know you" questions in ways that weren't so obvious, We talked over dinners, I bought her cute gifts, I sent her random e-mails letting her know that I loved her and enjoy being with her in many different ways. Every holiday card to her was hand made.

The six months and expense of that was for nothing as far as building intimacy goes. We had a great time but I could have had the exact same great time at a fraction of the cost with a roommate.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

anon_4_now said:


> In discussions I've had with her where I am taking full responsibility for this (over her objections) I tell her that I am not a mind reader and I need feedback, I need the connection to know when I'm providing her with what I'm looking for so I know what to keep doing in the future. It always comes back to "it's not you, it's me" or "I love you and you make me feel like the most loved woman in the world". I even went as far as telling her that "I know I'm not the best husband but I am needing guidance from you or at the very least I need you to tell me when I do something right". That never happens though.


Most of what you are saying sounds ok.
However the quote above has some problems. 1. You are constantly blaming yourself. That is a weak response and reduces her sexual attraction. 2. You are constantly asking your wife what you should be doing. Wives can't answer that question.

If your wife admits to you that she feels like the most loved woman on earth, then you must stop asking her what to do. You then tell her that in exchange for the love you are giving that she clearly enjoys, that you expect to receive love from her. And that you are not willing to live in a marriage where you are meeting her needs, by her own admission, and she is unwilling or unable to meet yours. She is the destroyer and you are the engaged participant in the marriage. What I am describing is a process, not a one time conversation.


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## venis (Mar 8, 2011)

Over the past 15 years:
1. I have talked with her many times
2. I have asked her to tell me what I’m doing wrong many times (she states nothing)
3. I have explained the importance of intimacy and sex to ME in our marriage and exactly how the lack of it effects me.
4. I have asked her if she is having an affair and expending all of her intimacy somewhere else (she states no)
5. I have written her two letters in detail about my needs asking what I can do differently to get them met (she states it’s not my problem it’s her)

Well here’s my two cents, 
First of all, we have been married 30+ yr and every thing you have experienced is the same in our relation.
There is no answer those with high Libido people we will just have to find a way to satisfy .
Mostly women have the opposite problem they just don’t have any sex drive left. They do it only to keep a marriage together. So if you ask permission to have an affair you will be taking the first step to divorce.
Blue balls, provide a male real pain both emotional and physical. So the here we go back to the porn question again. Can PORN help! If the wife has no sex drive and is happy the male just leaves her alone. 
Affairs are out of the question than where does a go to release his BB. 
Well take matters into your own hands and let here feel loved and secure, love her, but take care of your self as well. If she wont take Drugs, or topical treatment like my wife then you have no recourse.
Women can expect Men to be faithful and they should.
I wish the women out their could provide some insight to the problem short of drugs, but it always seem to come back to men should just suck it up.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

You want to be intimate with your wife again. That requires change. Since your wife is unwilling to change, you must change.

You have to stop being Beta around the house. I know you have said that you're alpha, but your description of your actions are completely Beta. Stop following your wife around the house asking her to pet your head.

You have said that you're unwilling to leave the house for your own hobbies because of childcare. Unless you have a seriously ill or special needs child(ren), you can give yourself a few hours a week to be out of the house. Go for a run. Go to the pub to watch a game. See a movie. Play golf. Whatever. She doesn't even need to know what you're doing. Tell her you're going out and will be back later. This will communicate less neediness to her. And neediness is a major turnoff for women.

And that doesn't mean that you should give her the cold shoulder. You've tried that before and you know that it's counter-productive. It communicates neediness. You're acting like a child pitching a fit. You should do the opposite. Don't offer back rubs, but cheerfully talk to her about the kids. If she asks for a back rub, make it 30 seconds. Stop asking what you need to be doing. Decide for yourself what is reasonable and what isn't and do only what's reasonable.

This course of action will improve your mood. There is a decent chance that her seeing you as less needy will increase her attraction for you. But, If she doesn't find you more attractive, at least you've stopped acting like her servant. You are putting more energy into things you enjoy. You will increase your tolerance for a low-sex marriage by enjoying yourself in other ways.

For your second question of how to deal with resentment, that's up to you. If you're enjoying yourself with hobbies, you will have less resentment. If you still need sex, you have gone outside the marriage before (with your wife's blessing). Tell your wife that you're considering hooking up outside your relationship, but you want her blessing. If she gives the thumbs up, then you have a source for relief. If she balks, that may spur her to action.


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## Whatshisname (Jan 12, 2011)

It may indeed be black and white. We were in a similar rut when my W was diagnosed with low Vitamin D and depression. Upon being medicated for these conditions things improved markedly.


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## anon_4_now (Mar 23, 2011)

Thank you all for the encouragement and insight.

Any guidance on how to deal with my resentment? Does that go away with the 180 type treatment or do I need to do something? I don't want my resentment to prevent me from seeing positive changes in her.


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## Married&Confused (Jan 19, 2011)

i think i have tried everything you have.

i did the "extra" stuff for her. cleaned, helped with the kids, etc... nothing

i did a lot of non-sexual intimacy. rubs, hand-holding, cuddling... nothing

i did the "man-up" thing. went out on my bike when she wanted to go shopping or to the movies. occupied my time around the house on "man" chores rather than spend time with her.

we had a long conversation and she mentioned i need to communicate more with her. fine. we spent time talking about anything we could. this along with "dates", non-sexual intimacy, etc... NOTHING

at one point, i resigned myself to a sexless marriage and felt a strange calm. i took sex off the table in the relationship and for a week, it felt good. but it didn't last. the resentment that i was doing everything that i was "supposed" to do and not getting what i wanted back hurt. and it's more than just sex. i can have sex with my hand.

i'm seeing a therapist now and she asked my what i wanted to get out of seeing her. one of my answers is how do i over come the frustration, resentment and coldness i now feel for my wife.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Wow you are a gem and your wife has you and does not realize what she has.

Do you think she realizes what lack of sex does to you emotionally? Does she think that all you want is physical pleasure and that you can do without it? 

When she says that it is her and not you, have you ever asked her what she would suggest you do since you are the one that is not at peace with this. 

I am being provocative but, I wonder what she would say if you asked her if you could go out and find a friend, someone nice, unmarried who is not interested in long term commitment. You can see her once a week - go out on a date, have sex then come home the next morning. You don't sound like the kind of man who would be unkind enough to say this but, what do you think she would say? 

If she understands that the problem is hers, what would she offer as a solution. If she takes your need for sex as seriously as you take it, where does she see your relationship going in 5, 10 and 15 yrs? Where do you see it going?


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

anon_4_now said:


> Thank you all for the encouragement and insight.
> 
> Any guidance on how to deal with my resentment? Does that go away with the 180 type treatment or do I need to do something? I don't want my resentment to prevent me from seeing positive changes in her.


If your wife refuses to meet your needs while acknowledging that you are meeting hers, the way to avoid resentment is to ratchet up the confrontations until she either meets your needs or she leaves. You will not hold resentment if you are following a plan. Remember, if you are meeting her needs and she is not meeting yours, then the entire breakdown of the marriage is on her, not you.


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## anon_4_now (Mar 23, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> Wow you are a gem and your wife has you and does not realize what she has.


I appreciate and want to be that gem. But reading around, I think that me being a Gem is just me being a "beta" and apparently that is what turns "most" women off according to many posts here. Rings true that it seems most women gravitate to Alpha, overbearing men.



> Do you think she realizes what lack of sex does to you emotionally? Does she think that all you want is physical pleasure and that you can do without it?


I know that I have told her multiple times and in multiple ways what it does to me. When my resentment builds between any intimacy, she sees me withdraw and build up walls. I think that is what eventually wakes her up but then she's right back to "normal" and the cycle continues.



> When she says that it is her and not you, have you ever asked her what she would suggest you do since you are the one that is not at peace with this.


I get one of two responses... "shrug" or "I'm trying to fix myself" to which my follow up question of "How" is met with all sorts of things that never really touch on the issue. I point that out and it leads to her telling me how bad she feels etc... I can never get her to come to a final conclusion that she'll follow through with. She's told me that she'd rather go to the Dr to find out what's wrong with her than have me take pills to kill my libido. She never goes though. I went as far as making an appointment for her and that went over REAL WELL (heavy sarcasm).



> I am being provocative but, I wonder what she would say if you asked her if you could go out and find a friend, someone nice, unmarried who is not interested in long term commitment. You can see her once a week - go out on a date, have sex then come home the next morning. You don't sound like the kind of man who would be unkind enough to say this but, what do you think she would say?


I can imagine the whole gambit really. From "Get the F* out!" to "Just don't let me know any details and get tested regularly." If I were to develop intimacy with another woman through dating etc..., I could see myself having a hard time going back home to my wife.



> If she understands that the problem is hers, what would she offer as a solution. If she takes your need for sex as seriously as you take it, where does she see your relationship going in 5, 10 and 15 yrs? Where do you see it going?


I hope that she sees our relationship as it once was. Her actions don't reflect that so I don't know. She could be going through the same stress I am wondering if tonight will be the night I have enough and leave her. 

I don't know if my body will survive the resentment and stress of another 15 (or 2) years. I don't know if I can stay if this doesn't get better soon. A concern is also being with my kids and giving them a "traditional" family. if I die because of the stress, what good am I to them?


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## anon_4_now (Mar 23, 2011)

Married&Confused said:


> i think i have tried everything you have.
> 
> i did the "extra" stuff for her. cleaned, helped with the kids, etc... nothing
> 
> ...


Please pass on any reading recommendations that your therapist gives on both topics (sexless and resentment).


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## SaffronPower (Mar 6, 2011)

Wow it really does sound like a depressed person you're living with there. Sorry man that's no fun at all. Maybe it lifts sometimes for awhile, but it sounds pretty chronic. The, "It's me not you" comment from her is a red flag. 

Time to get creative and get her to the doctor. Who is her closest contact besides you? Can you enlist some help talking with her about getting a medical checkup. You need to go with her and sit IN on the appointment and make sure she explains how she is feeling. Sometimes depressed people just can't do it themselves. The brain isn't working well. Tell her if she had a broken arm you'd take her to the doctor right? So her brain is broken, get her some help.

I know you're worried and wondering what will happen. But first get her to a doctor. If she won't take care of herself you can worry later about the consequences.

The alpha/beta thing kind of make me laugh sometimes. But this I know...If MY husband made a doctor's appointment and said he was taking me. I wouldn't question it. I'd get my ass in the car. So maybe you're not alpha at home


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## SaffronPower (Mar 6, 2011)

oh one more thing...You're absolutely SURE that the swapping doesn't have anything to do with this?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Lets forget sex for a moment. The idea that you give her long, pleasurable massages and don't "insist' and yes that is the correct word - "insist" on reciprocity sends her a huge message that her needs matter and yours don't. 

That is the opposite of alpha. BTW - my version of alpha has nothing to do with being aggressive, overbearing or jerky. It has to do with being firm and fair and asking (if need be demanding) that my partner treat me the way SHE wants to be treated. 

You might be very "alpha" however you define that at work, but at home you self describe as very beta. I get that insisting on a back massage is very different than insisting on sex. But there is a respect factor in the former that greatly impacts the latter.





anon_4_now said:


> WARNING!!! This is LONG and disjointed. I write like I think.
> 
> First of all, I know that there are a TON of posts about this same subject on this site (and probably others). I came here looking for a black and white answer to how to handle my high libido vs my wife’s lack of one. I know now that there is no black and white answer. For my situation, there are not really any good hints that I haven’t tried for years. I have to lay it out first to ask my question. Below you will see he/she, husband/wife etc... Please understand that I am talking about the high libido/low libido spouse... whichever the gender.
> 
> ...


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## anon_4_now (Mar 23, 2011)

SaffronPower said:


> oh one more thing...You're absolutely SURE that the swapping doesn't have anything to do with this?


I am 100% sure that it isnt part of this issue.


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## anon_4_now (Mar 23, 2011)

I don't know what the protocol is here so I'll just post my update in my original thread.

The last week was more of the same with the exception of a co-worker flirting with me over the weekend at a company function and feeling some mild intimacy from her (yes, I know it wasn't real) caused me to hit rock bottom with my home life. I am really beginning to doubt my ability to not blow up with my building resentment. There is absolutely no chance of me physically harming my wife but I can not say the same for the words I want to say... That bothers me ALOT. I am honestly concerned about my health and what this resentment is doing to me. 

I ordered the book "Sexless Marriage" based off of some articles I have read online. I continue to actively look for a quality book on how to manage resentment in this situation in case this book doesn't have good coverage of that topic. *Suggestions are appreciated.*

Is it possible to be depressed due to environmental circumstances and not a chemical imbalance? I am afraid that I am at that point in my life where bottling up the resentment has caused me to love life ALOT less (not suicidal, just no pleasure in anything). I *think* it is centered around the lack of intimacy and the resentment, not a chemical imbalance right now. I could be wrong though. I plan on talking to my physician later this week about it. 

If any of you have gone through "circumstancial depression", do meds help or do you have to gain control of the circumstances?

I'll let you all know how the book (and my "recovery") goes.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Anon,
The good news is that "every" beta guy describes "alpha" behavior in a highly negative light. Below you refer to it as "over bearing". 

I will give you "my" version of "alpha" in a marriage which is me boiling down 21 years of experience. FYI: You are quite lucky because my W is like your W. She does not have a "sexual" response to flowers, candy, expensive dates, etc. So I cannot create desire by "throwing" money at her. That said "this" is my version of alpha and there is nothing "overbearing" about it at all. If you break alpha down into two parts, half of it is what you "don't" do. And the other half is what you "proactively do". 

This is a guess, but a very educated guess. Before you started "dating" your W you were already doing two things that kill her "desire" for you. 
- Over loving her (smothering, whatever you want to call it. Too many calls/texts/emails/hugs/requests for sex/discussions about fixing the relationship, ILY's, etc)
- Showing very little/if any playful "edge"

Dating her just made it worse. Because that was all about your need for her to love you more, to treat you better. And it came across as needy. Sweet and kind and for her "yuck". Too much heat and no edge. 

Go read my post on the thermostat. And work on having some playful edge verbally AND physically. AND go to the gym if you aren't already. 

Having an "edge", a playful one, is NOT overbearing or jerky. It is fun. For her and you. 




anon_4_now said:


> I appreciate and want to be that gem. But reading around, I think that me being a Gem is just me being a "beta" and apparently that is what turns "most" women off according to many posts here. Rings true that it seems most women gravitate to Alpha, overbearing men.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Tool (Feb 14, 2011)

Have you tried the wake up call approach..

Its a Hail Mary move that I had to use and I scored..

You lay it all down in front of her, and you put the fear of divorce in her..

This will either give her a holy crap wake up call, or you will find out she wants out..


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## anon_4_now (Mar 23, 2011)

> This is a guess, but a very educated guess. Before you started "dating" your W you were already doing two things that kill her "desire" for you.
> - Over loving her (smothering, whatever you want to call it. Too many calls/texts/emails/hugs/requests for sex/discussions about fixing the relationship, ILY's, etc)
> - Showing very little/if any playful "edge"


Just like it's been mentioned in other posts... If you're hungry for food, you will ask for food. If you're thirsty, you will ask for a drink. If you're needing intimacy, you will ask for intimacy. If my wife is going to be turned off by me because I talk to her openly, then maybe that's the answer to this whole issue and it should be over.

Also, I don't know what you mean by _payful "edge"._ I have some assumptions but would like to make sure before I answer to that.


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## anon_4_now (Mar 23, 2011)

Tool said:


> Have you tried the wake up call approach..
> 
> Its a Hail Mary move that I had to use and I scored..
> 
> ...


I am going to read the book first to see if that gives me any insight on "alpha-ing" up but this is near the top of my list.


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## Tool (Feb 14, 2011)

Well when you give the Wake up call, that will man you up..


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## anon_4_now (Mar 23, 2011)

Tool said:


> Well when you give the Wake up call, that will man you up..


Let me just get this pet peave off my chest. There is nothing unmanly about taking care of your wife and her needs even when your's are being ignored. I never groveled, I never whined, I never went all emotional and hid in the corner.

I spoke to her clearly and in detail about my needs. I then spoke to her about her needs to make sure I was meeting them. When I assumed my verbal communication must have lacked, I wrote it out, read, reread to make sure it conveyed the points I wanted made and then sat with her as she read it. 

I explained my needs and her lack of meeting them. I then asked what needs I was not meeting of hers (This is called communication, not a weakness). At times, I would ask her what I need to do in cases where I wanted clarification from her (from cleaning the house with her to intimacy). If she chooses to not reciprocate what I would do for her then that is her not fulfilling basic relationship responsibilities, not me being less of a man. Yes, I said "RESPONSIBILITIES". Husbands and wives have the RESPONSIBILITY to be there emotionally and physically for their spouse. It's alot easier when there is a desier to do so but it's still a responsibility. There will be times when they can't due to stress, illness, schedules... but the availability should be the rule not the exception.

For anyone to tell somebody else that they should be able to look at their spouse and "know" if their needs are being met is a sign of ignorance. Clear and concise communication between the two partners is what is required... not educated guesses.

If you are forced to educated guesses, then the person you are guessing about needs to let you know when you are right or wrong.

Threatening divorce or ignoring some of her needs because she's not fulfilling mine does not (in any way) improve my "man" status but it will improve my relationship status either with her or without her.

So before people post on mine or anyone else's request for help, rethink the stupid "man up" term (not the philosophy) as it does nothing to help the situation.

[/rant]


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## Tool (Feb 14, 2011)

The problem here is that she has control of the situation by leveraging sex and using it as power..

"man up" philosophy isnt stupid.. You need to take the power back..

And sometimes you do that by destabilizing the relationship.. That puts the power back in your hands..


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Asking for excessive input from the wife (when she knows you are doing it to try to get sex), looks weak and needy. It puts the power on her. Allowing her to state that you are a great guy and meet all her needs while she flat out refuses to meet yours... And if you never confront her on this she will also conclude that you are weak.

It seems to me while you are criticizing Manning Up and stating it is wrong, you are also doing two textbook "weak" things than any man who has changed will tell you were the two keys to uncorking their wife's sexuality with them.


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## Tool (Feb 14, 2011)

You said "More than anything, I want to be intimate with my wife again"

Then listen to people who have been in your shoes and don't say their comments are stupid..

You not listening and ranting on doesn't help the situation..


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## anon_4_now (Mar 23, 2011)

Ok... Let me clear this up. I have no problem with the advise given. I do have a problem with the term "man up".

I even admitted that the advise was good when I said:


> Threatening divorce or ignoring some of her needs because she's not fulfilling mine does not (in any way) improve my "man" status *but it will improve my relationship status either with her or without her.*


As any man who has gone through this (especially those long term), they will probably admit (very quietly) that due to their wife's lack of intimacy (not just sex) they feel less of a man. Why rub their face in it? Telling a man in this situation to man up, is like telling a stroke victim to "mobility up". Just twist the knife a bit.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Manning up refers to adopting behavior toward your wife that is more manly, and thus more attractive to a woman. It does not mean suck it up. Read the Men's Clubhouse sticky post.


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## Tool (Feb 14, 2011)

To me, when I say man up.. What I am really saying is take the power back..

You are the man, the head of the household.. You will not let her dictate the terms of your sex life.. You take the power back and she will give you the mind blowing sex you are looking for..


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## notaname (Feb 4, 2011)

Anon, you cannot talk your wife into sexual desire. It just can't be done with ANY woman. If you want a healthy sexual relationship with ANY woman on earth you will have to learn to evoke sexual attraction in her rather than verbalizing your sexual needs.

I am sorry you have been rejected. I am sorry that simply verbalizing your needs cannot and will not work. I can't change biology.

Listen to MEM11363 and read his thermostat thread. PLEASE! Alpha and Beta are not opposites. But too much of one without any of the other is not going to benefit a healthy long-term relationship.

I fear that many men make some changes to themselves or actions they take yet they FAIL to change how they initiate sex. I really feel that the way in which sex is initiated can make or break it happening!

*Asking for sex is a fail. It sounds needy and is a turn off. It turns sex into a duty and a chore. It does not create attraction or desire.

*Expecting her to initiate is probably an unrealistic expectation at this point.

Being playfully Alpha in your sexual approach can change the entire dynamic.

*When she is in bed pounce on her and playfully maul her neck...she should giggle and enjoy it...advance it to sex.

*Chase her around the house

*have a tickle/wrestle fight 

*Tell her to take her shirt/panties/whatever off

*Ask if she wants top or bottom (the difference being that the default is some kind of sex)

*At dinner time ask her if she has a headache. If she says no then she can't use that excuse later. If she says yes give her a tall glass of water and 2 asprin...wink at her and say she'll need to be in top condition later.

*Try the 10 Second Kiss

*If your wife is reading in bed literally take the book out of her hand and plant a firm kiss on her lips. She may surprise you by laughing, putting away the book and sexing you. Otherwise, tell her it's time for bed and put away the book and start creating some heat.

Things that create heat:

*Nibbling her ear
*Kissing, mauling her neck
*Tickle, wrestle play
*grabbing her legs and pulling her to the edge of the bed
*Putting you arm around her waist and firmly to your side
*Full body contact during a kiss
*Telling her what to do (ie, take your shirt off)
*Put your body over her


The best thing you can do is get her to start giggling and laughing in bed with you. Have FUN! Flirt, tease, play.


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## anon_4_now (Mar 23, 2011)

Hicks said:


> Manning up refers to adopting behavior toward your wife that is more manly, and thus more attractive to a woman. It does not mean suck it up. Read the Men's Clubhouse sticky post.


ah... thanks for clearing that up for me. I still don't like the term...

::Scurries back to his desk::


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I have never thought of 'man up' as; "Stop being a big pu$$y."

I have always thought of it as: "Decide what is important to who you are and how you wish to conduct yourself. Then do what is necessary to make it happen."

Some of those things that are 'necessary' will undoubtedly contradict how you would normally choose to behave.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

You appear to be quite defensive at the term "man-up."

In fact, it's taken over the focus of your own thread.

Worry less about the term and more about how you can use the tools to take your marriage from sexless to fantastic.

At this point, do you really care if the threat of divorce enhances or ruins your relationship? You've said yourself that the lack of intimacy has put you into a type of depression.

Do you want to continue to spiral farther down so you don't "hurt her feelings" or "do damage to the relationship?"

She IS using sex as a weapon. She does not have YOUR best interests at heart, just her own - she's shown that your needs really don't matter. So do you need to consider hers?

This is what they are talking about when they say you need to "man up."

She has the control - she is using it to withhold sex. At this point in the game (and to her that's what it is), it's time to take charge and lay down the law - talking with her, laying out your needs, etc., isn't working - according to you. So different methods are in order.

If it takes threatening her with divorce, then so what - at least she'll understand it's important and start revving up the engine again - if she doesn't, then she is saying - I don't care about what you need.

At that point, then you either need to leave or learn to manage your sexless marriage.

THAT is what the 'guys' are saying.

And this advice is coming 'from a woman.'


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## anon_4_now (Mar 23, 2011)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> You appear to be quite defensive at the term "man-up."
> 
> In fact, it's taken over the focus of your own thread.
> 
> ...


I am very defensive at that term for the reasons I stated above. Now that I have read the sticky in the other forum, I better understand.

Thank you for your advise. I really don't take any of it lightly but I also speak up when I feel it's needed. In some cases (like this thread) I am proved to be uninformed or incorrect in my thinking. I'm ok with that too. But I will always speak up. Character flaw maybe.

Thank you all for your responses.


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## anon_4_now (Mar 23, 2011)

I want to say that I do feel bad for venting like I have here today. You all have done nothing but try to help me out. I am really having a problem dealing with my increasing resentment and I'm still messed up from what happened this weekend (it might seem minor to some but it hit me hard). 

To be flirted with and feel like someone "just might" want you... really kicked me in the gut when I got home. Here was my wife who didn't give me a fraction of the attention the co-worker gave me. I completely understand why men in my situation cheat. That was a very potent drug to me that I want to go back to.

I have finally found the Thermostat thread and it hit me like a 2 X 4 upside the head. Plan on reading more and some of the others who have posted their Thermostat paths. It will be hard to do things differently but it's my last ditch effort so it's all or nothing.


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