# Can't Make THE Decision



## 2yearsago (Jun 28, 2013)

Short history: Married 20 years. I am 47, W is 42. 2 kids, ages 10 & 14. W started an affair in fall of 2010. I discovered it and was in total shock. To this day she claims it was EA only. I saw things via email and text that strongly suggested PA but no hard evidence. I busted her 5X over the course of 8 months and like a complete fool never gave her hard consequences. That's on me. The most recent contact(that I know of) I saw was a trading of FB messages about 6 months ago. Looked benign but who knows. As is the usual story she blamed the state of the marriage for her affair. I'm sure she lost respect for me as I became the one who tried to make things better and allowed the affair to continue without giving hard consequences. I lived in limbo for 2years.
Now: Last month I told her I'm moving forward one way or the other. We were either going to MC to try to rebuild the marriage or I was calling a lawyer. We have been to MC 5X in the last month, 6th one coming up later this week. Here's my issue:

In the last 4 months I've really opened my eyes to reality. I've really worked on myself and set the marriage aside. I've seen that I've not been happy in the marriage for quite a while, at least 7-8 years. I've grown resentful of being the one who tries harder by planning events, initiating sex, and in general doing more to try to make the marriage a good place. In essence, I've been a "nice guy". I've co-created the dysfunctional relationship where she's unhappy and I try to make her happy. I've already known this but through MC it has become more clear that she blames me for the majority of unhappinness in her life. She does not take responsiblity for her own happinness and decisions. She disrespects me behind my back by telling friends and family 1/2 truths, shaping things to put me in a bad light and her in the good light. As I've stepped back and observed more I know it's been like this a long time. The truth is I have not gotten what I've wanted or needed from her for a long time. As I look towards the future I keep asking myself "Is this what I want? Did she do me a favor by having the affair to open my eyes to what my marriage really is?" Other red flags for me are that 5 years into our marriage she admitted kissing some guy while I was out of town. Was there more? Maybe. Also, she apparently had a special bond with the guy she had an EA with just after high school but never told me about him. Why would you keep that stuff inside? I know I will never trust her fully again. It's difficult to see me living my life with someone I will never trust again. 

She is going to MC and there is some outside effort. Not a lot, but some. I don't know if I am hanging on for some reason - fear probably. I'm not afriad of being without her. I'm used to it but I think I would not only survive but thrive in the aftermath of D. I don't know. It feels like I am hanging on and not quite ready to "pull the trigger" but not sure why.

Thoughts and similar situations welcome.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Limbo sucks!

A couple of book ideas for you: No More Mr. Nice Guy. Too Good To Leave, Too Bad to Stay.

What is it you are trying to save? Specifically why are you trying to save it?

I got caught up in this quest to "save the marriage". But I didn't really think about what this marriage was, or why I wanted it. In the past I was worried mostly about not having the kids grow up in a broken family. But over the past few years they are all old enough, college and high school. So what exactly was I trying to accomplish, and why?

What I discovered is that I was picturing something in my mind for the word "marriage" which was what I wanted. But I never had it. At times I thought I did, but in fact it did not exist. The person who I thought I was married to, did not exist. Both she and the marriage were in fact something quite different.

For me it then became a new start 2 years ago. Rather than fixing or saving the old marriage, it was simply a whole new relationship with this person I was discovering.

As you have probably seen here on TAM, the typical cheater scenarios would suggest your wife is not fully disclosing to you what has happened in the past. She has a history of hiding and lying. What has happened to make you believe she has changed at the core so that she no longer will deceive you?

My wife has what I have discovered is a life long pattern of hiding and deceiving in order to get what she wants from other people. Basically she prevents others from knowing important data so that they will make the decision she prefers. If they had the full story they might well not make the choice she prefers. Quite recently I discovered a significant new deception on her part, and I see she is still the same person and she still has the same ground rules in the marriage. While she has changed in some other ways in the marriage, and she seems to really want the marriage, this core aspect of her ground rules is still the same.

So do you think your wife has made core changes? Do you see objective evidence of it, or are you deducing it from more general behaviors?


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## 6301 (May 11, 2013)

Pulling the plug on a marriage isn't a easy decision to make but if your giving your all and getting very little or nothing in return, then you really don't have a marriage. It's clear that she doesn't respect you or her vows that she took or she wouldn't be having affairs. Not to mention when she's running you down in front of others, making you out as the bad guy just to bolster her "right" to have an affair, IMO, I would pull the plug.

Your not losing much in a wife, and as long as you let your children know that you love them and will always be there for them, they can survive the divorce. I know this for a fact and lived it in my marriage's (2). Just make sure that if and when you decide to end it, that your children are not within earshot of your decision and if your wife cares about the kids and has a brain, she will too.


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## 2yearsago (Jun 28, 2013)

Thor said:


> Limbo sucks!
> 
> A couple of book ideas for you: No More Mr. Nice Guy. Too Good To Leave, Too Bad to Stay.
> 
> ...


Thor - awesome sharing - thank you! And yes....LIMBO SUCKS! I am moving out of limbo one way or the other. 

I have read, embraced, and started a No More Mr Nice Guy group in my city. It is life changing for me. It is what is giving me to courage to lean into my fear and embrace it like I did a month ago when I put the hard boundry of MC or divorce to my wife. 

I don't know if I am trying to save anything. I felt like I would be a bad person if I didn't give it a final shot. As I told my W, our old marraige is gone, burnt to the ground. If it will exist it needs to be rebuilt. Sometimes I feel like I'm lying because I am looking at the marriage with open eyes and see so many things I don't like and not a lot that I do.

Nothing has happened that makes me think she has made core changes. 2 months ago I found out she was going to have coffee with a guy she had a little thing for a couple of years ago(not the EA guy). She didn't tell me about it. When I confronted her she said I didn't tell you because it's not a big deal. I said if it's not a big deal why didn't you tell me? Good example of no real change.

I haven't seen real changes. What I've seen is a willingness to go to MC and be open and honest in the sessions. She has tried to engage a little more outside of the sessions. This is the effort I have seen to this point. She does have a history of blame shifting, not taking responsibility, and playing the victim card a lot.

Thor - it sounds like you decided to rebuild your marriage or start anew. Why did you decide this? From what you have shared it sounds like some things are different while others remaind the same.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

The decision to try to start anew was born of confusion. Two years ago when I approached her about either fixing it for real or ending the marriage, she dropped on me that she was sexually abused as a young girl. I had no idea what this really meant in terms of how it would have affected her or how it impacted the marriage.

So I decided to give it 6 to 12 months to shake out. During that time she made some efforts which were noticeable. While not where I wanted us to be, we were definitely on the right path.

Part of the calculus for me was looking at the alternatives. Divorce means a huge financial hit for me. I pretty much lose my ability to retire. We are in an alimony state, and it won't be good for me. Divorce means starting over with other women, who will have issues and histories themselves.

Sometimes it is better to repair the broken down car when you know the rest of it is in good shape, rather than buy some other used car with unknown hidden potential problems.

The latest stunt from her though is a game changer and probably a game ender. She has shown her core template of how to behave within a close relationship includes deception. So all bets are off for now.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

One quick addition. My IC tells me that most men end up saying they stayed too long before pulling the rip cord and getting a divorce. But she also says that it is in a way a good thing. They try everything they can, and they give the marriage every possible chance. It is better to feel you waited too long rather than lamenting you bailed out too soon.


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## Keepin-my-head-up (Jan 11, 2013)

Yes. 
Same situation here.
After analyzing my marriage,I have lost weight, found a higher paying job and am even looking to get another BA degree.
(I could never prove an affair, found this site to late).

For the reason I stay?
Kids...
Things aren't bad, its just knowing that I did all I could and deserve better.
Mainly though, its because of my 2 boys
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

2yearsago said:


> T
> Nothing has happened that makes me think she has made core changes. 2 months ago I found out she was going to have coffee with a guy she had a little thing for a couple of years ago(not the EA guy). She didn't tell me about it. When I confronted her she said I didn't tell you because it's not a big deal. I said if it's not a big deal why didn't you tell me? Good example of no real change.
> 
> I haven't seen real changes. What I've seen is a willingness to go to MC and be open and honest in the sessions. She has tried to engage a little more outside of the sessions. This is the effort I have seen to this point. She does have a history of blame shifting, not taking responsibility, and playing the victim card a lot.


She really has a problem with other men. I think two years is more than long enough to work on things. Its OKAY to end it, it really is. You know that you will be better off..its time to rip off that bandaid.


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## 2yearsago (Jun 28, 2013)

3Xnocharm said:


> She really has a problem with other men. I think two years is more than long enough to work on things. Its OKAY to end it, it really is. You know that you will be better off..its time to rip off that bandaid.


IMO I think the biggest issue is with herself. She plays the victim card a lot. When she is unhappy with things in her life she takes it out on me(or our daughters sometimes). She has never been someone to change a situation or do SOMETHING to change the thing that is causing her unhappinness. So from this perspective I also know there is a slim chance of things really changing in our marriage. Essentially its this:

Accept what I see as the truth and the reality. What I see is what I'm gonna get. This is what I've got to look at honestly and answer if it's something I want to stay with.

I've done enough work on myself over the last 2 years to know I will be happy on my own. I don't need the marriage. It's mostly been my 2 daughters keeping me hanging on. I do know I gotta do something soon.


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## 2yearsago (Jun 28, 2013)

Keepin-my-head-up said:


> Yes.
> Same situation here.
> After analyzing my marriage,I have lost weight, found a higher paying job and am even looking to get another BA degree.
> (I could never prove an affair, found this site to late).
> ...


For me this becomes less and less of a reason. I mean I love my daughters more than life itself. I also know I could be happier and don't want to look back in 5 years and feel like I am in the same place.

Things being "not bad" is status quo which if it works for you is fine. I told myself after the affair that I was NOT going back to how it was before that, no matter what. To me that was like saying it was okay. And is so isn't. thats just me.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

2yearsago said:


> I've done enough work on myself over the last 2 years to know I will be happy on my own. I don't need the marriage. It's mostly been my 2 daughters keeping me hanging on. I do know I gotta do something soon.


Yes, we all will be just fine alone. We won't be alone unless it is what we choose. Right now I think it would be a big relief to not have the daily indecision about what to do. It would be a relief to be moving towards something. Honestly I don't know where this fear comes from of being alone, it is almost as if society tells us we _should_ fear being alone, therefor we _do_ fear it.

As far as having to do something soon, yeah that is an exhausting state to be in. Every day one mulls over the question "should I stay or go?". There is no objective measure or deadline to help with the decision.

I have come to the conclusion that kids should be a tiebreaker only when it comes to making the decision. That is, all else being equal then the choice is to stay. But if without kids your decision would be to leave, then you should leave. The reason is that you will never be happy if you stay when you want to leave. And it will affect the kids as a result.

I also believe that younger kids do better than older kids. Especially as you have kids just pre-high school. My daughters both started with the normal drama at about 15, continuing until after freshman year in college. I could not leave once the drama years started. They are 3 years apart, so it made a 5 year or so period for me when I just did not believe D was an option. Had I gotten out before it started I would not have had to make all kinds of compromises on all kinds of issues including parenting and discipline. It would have been better for them in many regards had I left. Ironic.


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## 2yearsago (Jun 28, 2013)

Thor said:


> I have come to the conclusion that kids should be a tiebreaker only when it comes to making the decision. That is, all else being equal then the choice is to stay. But if without kids your decision would be to leave, then you should leave. The reason is that you will never be happy if you stay when you want to leave. And it will affect the kids as a result.


I have heard this before and am more and more thinking along these lines. Our daughters don't even know we are in MC. This changes tonight.

Talking about trying/not trying. We had a discussion a couple of nights ago about connecting for 15 minutes each day as the therapist suggested. This led to things such as:

"We are doing therapy because you are unhappy"

"I'm trying to take baby steps" - (After 2 f***ing years...REALLY?!)

"I told you about my grandma today, I guess that's not connecting since you don't care about what I say" - (Even though I was actively engaged in the conversation and asked questions about her grandma while looking at her).

Am I living in crazy town?

If you were to take the all things being equal, kids are the tie breaker then I'd say it makes for a much easier decision. Because right now I see virtually no upside in my marriage, just downside.


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## Craig49 (Jul 17, 2013)

Following this thread, thought I would add a bit.
Currently in the same boat, not sure about pulling the trigger and going my own way.
Married 24 years, infidelity on her part 12 years ago. My daughters are doing post high school education still living at home.
Been in limbo for a while, currently in MC, trying to sort out communication issues, but there are so many other issues, trust, forgiveness, no intimacy, sexless for the past 3 1/2 yeras, etc we are dealing with.
Seems my lack of forgiveness is whats holding us back from progressing according to the marriage Councellor. Somedays I am not sure its even worth the effort.

Hard to pull the trigger, but seriously considering seperation.

Craig


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## 2yearsago (Jun 28, 2013)

Recent lightbulb moment. Waiting, hoping, wishing for your SO to change is not good(We have been in MC). It is not good for several reasons - one it is putting the power of your happinness in someone else's court. Two, if you don't love someone completely for who they are then ultimately there are going to be resentments and unhappinness.

I realize that what I want & need out of a marriage/relationship is not what I have and not what I want. The affair is one BIG graphic example but as I look at things it was really the eye opener to other things I shut out and ignored and accepted for a long time. This fed my own resentments and I am sure did not help the marriage.

My IC asked me recently as I was talking to him about staying or going "Does your wife make you feel alive? Does she feed you soul?" My gut answer was "No". As I thought about it more it was really more like it causes ongoing stress, limbo, and unhappinness. And guess what? That's on me. I allow it. Of course there are some good things but it really opened up my eyes.

It also made me realize it's on me. It's up to me to say I am the one not happy here. It puts it on me instead of making it about my SO. And that is scary and liberating at the same time.


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## tulsy (Nov 30, 2012)

When she said this to you:



2yearsago said:


> "I've given 90% of the effort in this marriage for 15 years.....*I don't have to give any now*"


That should have been enough. Marriage takes 2 people, and you could never fix this on your own.

Add that to the fact that she is a blame-shifting, trickle-truthing, non-remorseful, serial cheating, compulsive liar....why bother?

For the record, the cheater is the one supposed to be doing the heavy-lifting. 

Pull the plug, 180 and file for divorce...in fact, that may be the only thing that makes her actually put forth effort.


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

First, I think I fit in a similar situation. My wife cheated on me repeatedly with several different men, mostly PA's instead of EA's in your situation. Each time I forgave her and tried my hardest to win her back. Forgiving her was fine, but as you know as well, I should have come down harder and made my position far more clear.

Anyway, now it is several years later and we finally reconciled a few months back, with the process starting about a year ago. Can I say that the marriage I have today is as I want it to be, that it is meeting my needs, etc.? No I certainly can't yet. However, is my marriage now improving little by little every week, every month? Yes it absolutely is. My wife has only been home for about three months now, and we both have tons of baggage from the past to get over. I'm guessing that you too have discovered a lot of faults in yourself over the last couple of years of self discovery, and a lot of instances where you failed your wife or otherwise allowed her to feel unloved (probably unknowingly) for an extended period of time that left her vulnerable to other men.

So in my case, first I have to take responsibility for the fact that, completely separate from my wife's problems and her obvious marital failures, that I too failed her in many ways as well. Just because mine didn't involve the big "A" word, doesn't make them any better. So things not being ideal right now isn't just her fault. Second, I have to realize that the way my wife treats me and our marriage is very much influenced by how I have treated her and our marriage. If I have allowed her to walk all over me, then I shouldn't be surprised if she regularly disrespects me. Is that 100% her fault, or am I not somewhat responsible for that as well? In my case, I believe strongly that if I were treating my wife well, standing up to her as needed, being a strong leader, confident enough to tell her no when necessary, etc., that she would respect me completely and treat me in a way that I'd like to be treated.

Third, I have to accept that no major change can happen over night, and the pace of that change will certainly be influenced by the pace at which I change my own approach to her and the marriage. Obviously I can only influence it however, not control it, as she too will influence it as well. I can't dictate how long it will take. So the way I see it, as long as I am doing my best to treat my wife and the marriage the way I know they deserve, and indeed the marriage is consistantly getting better, then I should be satisfied with that progress. I made a commitment to her, and since I share in the blame for driving our marriage into the ground, and because I believe that she could be the perfect wife for me again, I owe it to her to remain committed as long as she too is showing a commitment by consistently moving the marriage forward as well. 

If her commitment were to waiver or slow to a crawl, that is when I would have to confront her about what she really wants. Whether the reconciliation period takes another 3 months or 3 years, and whether it is successful or not, I know I will have done the right thing with no regrets.


Sorry I am definitely not trying to judge you. In fact I commend you for sticking with it for this long, as you and I both know that most men would have given up a long time ago. You also recognize that you really went about it all the wrong way in the beginning, just as I did too, but now it sounds like you have a better idea of how to approach this. My only concern is that it sounds like you are trying to judge where you marriage stands today, and asking yourself if you are happy with that or if you could be happier in the future without your wife. I'm saying that the answer can be no, that you aren't happy with the marriage as it is today, that yes you could be happier in the future without your wife, but you could still be even happier/better off by sticking with your marriage IF it is moving in the right direction.

I mean, you married your wife because you love her, you felt she would be a great partner. Now you worry about some nasty habits/behaviors that she seems to have developed. Realize that these habits/behaviors could very well have developed because you allowed them to develop over time. I'm not saying it's all your fault, but if that is the case, you can also help eliminate them as well by changing your own habits with her. If she could unlearn those elements, then wouldn't that be wonderful? If you could spend your time with her and perfecting your marriage, (and avoid the pain of divorce for you and your family) wouldn't that be ideal? 

My overall point is that it isn't really fair to judge your marriage as it stands today, when it is still recovering from the mess that it was allowed to sink to in recent years. If you believe you have the ability to positively influence your wife and grow your marriage, then judging your marriage today would presume that it is as good as it is ever going to get, which isn't really true then, right?

Now if you feel that progressive improvement won't happen fast enough for you, or that you can't positively influence your marriage, then that's a different story. But that isn't the impression I got from your original post. I got the impression that you are just frustrated that, even while your marriage has sort of stabilized to a degree in the sense that the affairs are long since over and things are improving little-by-little, that she just isn't AS committed as you'd like her to be, and therefore things aren't improving as fast as you'd like it to be. I too would find it hard to quit on her if she is still making an effort. So my next step would be to analyze my own commitment and steps I can take to see if I can help speed up the process and possibly influence her own commitment level as well.


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

Lord I can get way too wordy in these replies... Sorry for that. And yet here is some more...

Since she isn't doing anything grossly wrong right now, I don't think you can really do anything dramatic like suddenly going 180 and filing for divorce and still hope for a positive response from her. I think it has to be way more subtle. I do think it is ok to put your foot down a little more often in laying out boundaries, defining expectations with the MC to determine what is fair and then holding her accountable to them, and ultimately be honest by sharing that you are struggling to maintain focus and are prepared to move on without her if she is unwilling to increase her commitment level to some degree. Not that you WANT to move on without her, or plan to, but the progress has been coming much to slow and you have grown tired of feeling like you are doing all of the heavy lifting alone. You'd like her to step up as your partner and push each other towards the same goal a the same pace, or for her to acknowledge that she can't do it and go a different route.

Just a few thoughts! (ok, maybe a lot of thoughts!)


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## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

Your wife is a serial cheater


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