# My Alternative Lifestyle Buddy



## eric1 (Apr 10, 2015)

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/318474-just-found-out-9.html#post15707665

I referred to my friend here.

It's obviously a very tough case and I'd be happy to expand on any details if people like. 

I need some help. I talk to him all day and his mind is so damn messed up. He bounces from hopeful to suicidal. His wife is doing nothing to help him recover. In fact, yesterday, while they were in different cities, he spent the entire day researching basically everything about how to recover from this. She spent the day writing a damn list called "100 Things I Love About Bill"

My biggest contention right now is exposure. Here are all of the facts:


He's holding on my a string and he's afraid this will be the straw that broke the camel's back
He broke them up three times before and every time he let them back together (I know, I know. But that's not happening this time). I feel his wife is pining away because he's conditioned her to do so. She needs that relationship ended with no exception so that her focus pivots to where it should be.
Bill (The boyfriend) and his wife may have been in an open relationship at one time. I don't trust anything he says. On thing of note is that an Ash Mad dump confirms he has joined under a few different usernames, so he was either hiding this from his wife or my friend's wife (who was also on that site)
My friend fears that if Bill gets kicked out then Bill will focus 100% on his wife
My friend has significantly more financial resources than Bill
A part of the affair took place in IL, which does have Alienation of Affection laws.
I know the response here will be for my friend to sack up. And truthfully that may be the case. Also at play here is that he's also admittedly caused these problems. He was so focussed on his kink that he forgot his wife was his wife and he also didn't see what she was doing for what it was - her hotwifing was the price of admission of her being will Bill. He never actually had the kink he thought that he had. He also thought that their sex was hot, but what he forgot was that his wife communicates with sex (love language) so the depth of their passion was the depth of their love. Which is deep, deep love.

What's keeping her now is that they make a great team, they own a business and have a kid together. He still loves her and realizes his role in messing everything up. Moreso, he understands that he's not at blame here and that a lot of what she did was abusive behavior towards him. 

Again, I know that this seems bad but I think there is a good chance here to atleast have the both of them end up happy. I like finding the hard ones to solve.


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Professional help for them. Sooner rather than later I think.

Did they ask their son if he wanted this so-called lifestyle?

Damn foolish "alternative lifestyle" nonsense!  
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## eric1 (Apr 10, 2015)

The professional help is very hard right now. His wife has heard what she hasn't liked hearing from them for two years now. Her excuse right now is that professionals will be "manipulated" by my buddy.

My suggestion to him was to offer to send her to a therapist in Uganda, who has never heard of the internet and who has never spoken with an American, much less him. If that's truly the case then that should overcome the objection, no?


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Sacking up is the only option that ends limbo and the compromising of his self-respect.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## btterflykisses (Apr 29, 2016)

I thought my friends drained me. How on earth do people get in such a mess?


----------



## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

How does one close Pandora's box?

The demons have escaped, and they're not coming back. What you said was pretty telling: he spent the day researching how to fix this. She spent the day thinking about Bill and how wonderful he is.
This guy's marriage is just over. One cannot nice a woman back, they can't hope them back, they can't use logic, they can't love them back, they can't get inside the wife's head and kick the other guy out. 

I truly think this one is futile, Eric. However, if you are able to somehow help your friend to get his WIFE back and she actually loves him, you can make millions if you can duplicate the procedure and write down the steps involved.
Good luck on this, you're gonna need it.


----------



## eric1 (Apr 10, 2015)

Evinrude58 said:


> How does one close Pandora's box?
> 
> The demons have escaped, and they're not coming back. What you said was pretty telling: he spent the day researching how to fix this. She spent the day thinking about Bill and how wonderful he is.
> This guy's marriage is just over. One cannot nice a woman back, they can't hope them back, they can't use logic, they can't love them back, they can't get inside the wife's head and kick the other guy out.
> ...


I'm gonna get it man. I don't lose stuff like this.

My basic steps here are for her to accept the marriage, which she has already done. It took weeks of nuanced psychological tinkering, but right now she believes that my buddy represents both her financial and family well-being. 

He needs to stay on the offense. He's been predictable in the past and by changing things up she'll be too busy fighting on her heels to try to manipulate / gas light him. 

Then once we get to that stage I'm hoping we're five weeks in. At five weeks any human, happy or not, has settled into patterns. Once we get to the pattern stage it's a matter of getting her to hate her ex. I mean the first step of her hating him is that he'll be exposed and the first thing he'll do is run and hide. The ONLY time she's ever been pissed at him is the first time that they broke up his only concern was covering his ass with his wife. Like all affairs, she gets paid by him making her feel like she is the center of his world. He gets paid in sex.

Once he one billion percent chooses his wife by running and hiding like the coward he is this will be the first crack of hate. That a$$ spent the last two years wedging his wife, so my friend will then wedge him full-force.

If she can learn to hate Bill then there is a chance. But I'm hinging everything on the hate.

The backup plan (Bill chooses girlfriend or wife kicks him out) is that my friend will then lay waste to him - alienation of affection, come at his professionally (the dude skipped work all the time to be with her), retraining order, etc. The hope here is that this will be a show of force will put him into the drivers seat. I am pretty sure that this will not come to fruition. Every sign is Bill is a loser who will run and hide (he left his ex-wife, with cancer, and his child to be with his current wife, 1500 miles away)

My friend also needs to get to therapy. He obviously played a role in getting it to this stage.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

I hope he doesn't commit suicide, but I'd leave before implementing this game plan. Sorry, if I have to cajole, game, manipulate and threaten someone to maintain a relationship I'm out. Seriously, there is a bunch of contradictions going on in your friends thinking and what you wrote. I know you didn't mean it, but the metaphors, cliches and analogies just kind of broke my mind. 

Oh and I'm not teaching anyone to hate anybody. If you don't see this person is bad for our relationship, then it is time for me to go.


----------



## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Once humpty dumpty has fallen, there's no putting him back together again. You might manipulate events to have her return to the marriage, and hate the OM, but you can't make her love your friend. It's just not going to happen. That's why I say he needs to quit the suicidal thinking, as much as this must hurt, and spend this time working toward a new life. NOT manipulating the situation to get a woman back that clearly thinks very little of your friend. 

I'm not for getting them back at all costs. Your friend needs to accept that his crazy little kink caused a break in the line. Acceptance on his part that his wife is gone is of vital importance for him to heal. And if he stays in this hope/anguish state very long, I worry about him. 

Do you think it might be better to help your friend get over this pitfall in his life and start working toward a future without her? You and I both know that she will never truly love him again, and if he wanted to see his wife bang another dude, I worry he might have never loved her.

That said, your plan does have merit as far as getting rid of the OM.


----------



## eric1 (Apr 10, 2015)

Evinrude58 said:


> Once humpty dumpty has fallen, there's no putting him back together again. You might manipulate events to have her return to the marriage, and hate the OM, but you can't make her love your friend. It's just not going to happen. That's why I say he needs to quit the suicidal thinking, as much as this must hurt, and spend this time working toward a new life. NOT manipulating the situation to get a woman back that clearly thinks very little of your friend.
> 
> I'm not for getting them back at all costs. Your friend needs to accept that his crazy little kink caused a break in the line. Acceptance on his part that his wife is gone is of vital importance for him to heal. And if he stays in this hope/anguish state very long, I worry about him.
> 
> ...


I've been very blunt with him on his role here and what the outcome can/might be. My goal for him, unabashedly, is for him to leave this "saga" as a better and happier person. He thinks (and I think) that there is still a chance that she loves him and can love him deep down. 

He realizes that there is a time to expire on this. In fact the biggest thing he's fought himself over is "taking the easy way out" which is continuing the lie. That is letting her back with him, him just finding a girlfriend and them living out their lives. They make a significant amount of money together and a divorce would threaten that. My point to that is that that isn't how marriage works. Ambivalent feelings turn to annoyance turns to hate. Then he'll find himself in the same situation except her loser of a boyfriend looking for his payday and her looking for blood. That WILL happen if he lets it go on.

Because there is a chance, he's aware of what's at stake, I don't see the problem with taking ten weeks, along with proper professional therapy for him, to be taking this chance. But after ten weeks is where I'd start giving up personally.

Frankly he can do better than her. She is an in-shape 44 year old, but 1. she has it in her to do this and 2. he's a massively successful early 50s guy. If it's just looks then he can pull in some early 30s piece of a$$ and along with that have a reasonable chance of finding someone who wouldn't treat him this way. He knows this. He knows it's HER who has the real job in front of them.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

He needs to 180, expose, and file.

Oh, and he should also SEVERELY curtail her access to financial resources (to the degree allowable by law, of course).

Nothing else is gonna through to her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## eric1 (Apr 10, 2015)

Since she is hanging on by a think line what should I say to him about exposure? It's literally 90% of my texts to him saying he NEEDS to do it. His point is, which is a good one, is that it'll overly complicate things at this moment in time when he wants the focus to be on them.

I disagree though. I think that the spectre of him out there will never allow her to be truly committed to reconciliation.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

eric1 said:


> Since she is hanging on by a think line what should I say to him about exposure? It's literally 90% of my texts to him saying he NEEDS to do it. His point is, which is a good one, is that it'll overly complicate things at this moment in time when he wants the focus to be on them.
> 
> I disagree though. I think that the spectre of him out there will never allow her to be truly committed to reconciliation.


You're 111.11% correct.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Jus260 (Mar 24, 2016)

Even if you do get his wife to go back to him, do you think this is the last boyfriend she'll ever have? I think you are wasting your energy. 

I didn't know sex was a love language.


----------



## Jus260 (Mar 24, 2016)

I'll never understand these people who are very successful at work but get sh*t on by their family at home. I work with a woman who is a complete ball buster at work but she pays her adult daughter's cell phone bill and her mother's cellphone bill. She also pays for anything they want. They don't appreciate any of it.

I have another cowoker who is married to a guy who is a superintendent of a local school system, travels the country consulting for large fees. He has no control over her. She will admit to you that she is sneaky. At least she admitted it. That's why she hates me. I'm the only person who doesn't fall for her fake personality. Of she isn't a narcissist, she is knocking on the door.


As far as these guys who seem ultra weak, I have to think this is the same psychology that stops a woman who was sexually assaulted from reporting it. No matter how logical exposure is, they refuse to do so.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## eric1 (Apr 10, 2015)

Jus260 said:


> Even if you do get his wife to go back to him, do you think this is the last boyfriend she'll ever have? I think you are wasting your energy.
> 
> I didn't know sex was a love language.


Even if I'm wasting my energy on this guy, I'm really gaining a ton of experience helping him out. 

Plus it ain't fun if it's easy.


----------



## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

> [*]Bill (The boyfriend) and his wife may have been in an open relationship at one time. I don't trust anything he says. On thing of note is that an Ash Mad dump confirms he has joined under a few different usernames, so he was either hiding this from his wife or my friend's wife
> 
> (who was also on that site)



:cone4: Very few real live women actually ever signed up for Ash Mad ~~~ if you or your friend are married to one ~~~ RUN.

They be crazy.

They literally signed up to flirt and arrange to have secret anonymous sex with complete strangers on the internet. 

The absolute only way to ever "no contact" and rebuild any modicum of trust with a wayward wife that would do that would be to handcuff them to you (by consent), house arrest (by consent and without the internet) AND 24/7 surveillance (by consent). They can have absolutely no contact with any men not their husband ~~ Not even the UPS guy.

It's just not feasible ~~~ which means recovery is impossible. If your friends chooses to stay married anyway, he's go to look at it as "she's ill" and i'm just staying to protect my children.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

I don't comment much on infidelity stuff anymore. I do read the threads but only to help me to avoid pitfalls in my own marriage. That said, I have a lot of trouble finding sympathy for anyone husband who has actively sought out, encouraged or insisted on living the hot wife and cuckold lifestyle. There is ALWAYS that chance that people grow emotionally attached thru sex. In fact, it's quite a good chance that it happens. IMHO, the only real recourse now is to cut his losses and divorce so that he can at least try to give his child some sort of normalcy. Then as the child grows up he can then explain to the child what happened and beg forgiveness for destroying the marriage thru his fetish and/or sitting back and allowing his wife to destroy the marriage without putting a stop to it if these were her desires. Assuming the H was the one who wanted the lifestyle, his goose is cooked. He needs to get help to figure out why he wants to degrade himself with such wretched lifestyle choices. 

Monumental idiocy and a wanton lack of regard for the children he brought into this world. Truly a sad case.


----------



## Kobold (Dec 5, 2015)

eric1 said:


> Also at play here is that he's also admittedly caused these problems. He was so focussed on his kink that he forgot his wife was his wife and he also didn't see what she was doing for what it was - her hotwifing was the price of admission of her being will Bill. He never actually had the kink he thought that he had. He also thought that their sex was hot, but what he forgot was that his wife communicates with sex (love language) so the depth of their passion was the depth of their love. Which is deep, deep love.
> 
> What's keeping her now is that they make a great team, they own a business and have a kid together. He still loves her and realizes his role in messing everything up. Moreso, he understands that he's not at blame here and that a lot of what she did was abusive behavior towards him.
> 
> Again, I know that this seems bad but I think there is a good chance here to atleast have the both of them end up happy. I like finding the hard ones to solve.


Worst case scenario/s- She refuses to stop seeing Bill, your friend eventually gets divorced, she gets alimony, child support and Bill is living in his house with his (ex)wife and son at least partially on his dime. Or alternatively, she stays married and your buddy goes to his grave as a cuckolded baby sitter/provider in a loveless marriage. 

Best case scenario- Your friend's wife (begrudgingly)stops letting Bill use her, she eventually comes to regret her extramarital activities which she will no doubt lay the blame for at her husband's feet. In her mind she will be the woman who was once a sweet, innocent wife and mother who was forced to go along with her husband's sick perversions and it will be her eternal trump card in their relationship.


----------



## eric1 (Apr 10, 2015)

Kobold said:


> Worst case scenario/s- She refuses to stop seeing Bill, your friend eventually gets divorced, she gets alimony, child support and Bill is living in his house with his (ex)wife and son at least partially on his dime. Or alternatively, she stays married and your buddy goes to his grave as a cuckolded baby sitter/provider in a loveless marriage.
> 
> 
> 
> Best case scenario- Your friend's wife (begrudgingly)stops letting Bill use her, she eventually comes to regret her extramarital activities which she will no doubt lay the blame for at her husband's feet. In her mind she will be the woman who was once a sweet, innocent wife and mother who was forced to go along with her husband's sick perversions and it will be her eternal trump card in their relationship.




We're currently in best case scenario trajectory. Down to her blaming him (which frankly isn't completed unwarranted). 

To make it slightly better though she's even acknowledged her part here. They spoke today and she called herself a 'selfish b1tch' and noted that he was trying harder than her.

He used this as an opportunity to re-confirm the need for no contact (she agreed) and that he wasn't willing to live in a marriage with only one of them trying.


----------



## eric1 (Apr 10, 2015)

Quality said:


> :cone4: Very few real live women actually ever signed up for Ash Mad ~~~ if you or your friend are married to one ~~~ RUN.
> 
> They be crazy.
> 
> ...




To be specific, he signed her up for it.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Quality said:


> :cone4: Very few real live women actually ever signed up for Ash Mad ~~~ if you or your friend are married to one ~~~ RUN.





eric1 said:


> To be specific, he signed her up for it.


Sounds like the latest installment of "One Flew Over the Cuckold's Nest".

Seriously, what a dumb f*ck.


----------



## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Some people just live drama until they go senile. It's really a lifetime project for them. Having other people tell them how dysfunctional, hurtful, selfish, stupid, etc. they are doesn't even make a dent.

Sure, he could divorce her and find that hot early-30's woman, but he'll just make a mess of that. He'll either attract a train wreck of a woman or he'll turn her life into one.

He needs the 180 and very serious IC. Forget about what she needs. He has to straighten up and fly right.

Or

He could just continue to live in drama until he's old and uninteresting to anyone who might have earlier played out his drama with him.

Some people live the soap opera and then die.

Your friend needs professional help. He should be focusing on that instead of focusing on trying to get blood out of a turnip with his WW.

She's able to find 100 wonderful things about her OM. We can easily articulate 100 reasons for your friend to D. It's really obvious, isn't it? The answer to this? @GusPolinski nailed it in three lines.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

alte Dame said:


> Some people just live drama until they go senile. It's really a lifetime project for them. Having other people tell them how dysfunctional, hurtful, selfish, stupid, etc. they are doesn't even make a dent.
> 
> Sure, he could divorce her and find that hot early-30's woman, but he'll just make a mess of that. He'll either attract a train wreck of a woman or he'll turn her life into one.
> 
> ...


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Sadly, if this was normal I'd laugh.

I don't know how many times, in my own life as well, I have heard the metaphorically blindest people say "it will over complicate things." By the time you've become suicidal, you really can't make things more complicated. No, you really can't. You are now contemplating OPTING OUT of all things forever or whatever you believe. 

He needs to get IC yesterday and let this woman go.


----------



## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Any guy who signs his wife up to screw other guys so he can get his cookies off by watching and hearing about it is an idiot. Few things will lower a woman's respect and romantic interest in you quicker than her knowing you want to share her with other guys. Alienating the affection of his wife was probably easy as falling off a log.
As far as saving his marriage, this MFer can bend over and kiss his azz goodbye. Forever his wife will look at him knowing he is willing to be a cuckold to satisfy his off center sexual appetite. How can she respect him? Based on what you're saying, I don't. Any "hot wife" that tells you she loves and respects her husband is lying for her own benefit. In my past life, I've known many and heard what they say during pillow talk.
Even if the above was not true, this girl seems to have found someone that put something on her that Ajax won't take off. Your buddy has simply been out manned by Billy.


----------



## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

@ThePheonix : This is apparently a rather popular thing with people. to spice things up.
@eric1 : This is a multi-part response from your first posts and responses.
1 - Suicide would be the dumbest thing to do, nobody is worth killing yourself over. Even as bad as it got for me, pretty much the worst was a few days, here and there without the will to live. I was taking a medication that caused me to have a suicidal thought for several seconds (a possible side-effect) in which case, I stopped taking it that day - after using it for 3-4 days.

2 - My situation ended up in a form of hotwifing - inadvertently. Which if it was like my situation, his wife doesn't see that she is CHEATING because her husband was okay with the arrangement. Until she sees what she is doing *IS* wrong, it goes nowhere. 

3 - No matter what, they both need MC/CC - someone completely different that they haven't seen before.

4 - One set of open relationship(OR) couple are upset with my WW for her actions and another OR couple had just gone through an infidelity situation a few months before mine blew up. The woman of the 2nd couple is the one that cheated, but they both spent months in therapy and continue to do so. She has opened communications with my WW with her own experience. For almost 2 months I have been working on myself and dating others. Doing my best at NC with my wayward. She asks "Can we try again?" and started going to CC with me, when I have been going alone. I bought her two books (below) and this time, I've been sitting back and letting her - along with our therapist do the work. If she asks for my opinion, I give it. So only recently, has she able to say "I cheated on you" and to say it to other people. And she's opened up far more than anything before. We have a long way to go.

5 - If the AP doesn't back off, expose him...

* I got her two books, the first one is what I would recommend for the wayward. Its a cheap $10 book and its 98 some pages, but with its text size and format, its actually about 50 real pages and I read it under 2 hours. Why I recommended it for the wayward that are still *IS* in the fog somewhat, which takes time, getting them to read a 300~400 page book is daunting, especially when they don't believe anything outside the fog. With this quick little book, it got her to ask me (and herself) questions and ask our therapist questions as well.

Book #1 (under $10)
How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair: A Compact Manual for the Unfaithful
Linda J. MacDonald

Book #2 ($13 on Amazon) - 450 pages
Not "Just Friends": Rebuilding Trust and Recovering Your Sanity After Infidelity
by Shirley P. Glass

(I bought the older hard-cover book for myself, its much better paper - which you can get used for about the same price as the paperback)
There is no better book.


----------



## eric1 (Apr 10, 2015)

Rest assured guys he's on the path to counseling himself. I can't push him too hard on that or he may go dark on me. 

He knows that deep down he caused this. His wife was just the jerk who decided to take advantage of the situation.


----------



## sparrow55 (Apr 23, 2016)

@TaDor 

What do you think ?

Edit: Oh, you already posted


I actually noticed this part



> My situation ended up in a form of hotwifing - inadvertently.



So, you opened your marriage and your wife found a lot of willing guys while you did not find any woman ?


----------



## eric1 (Apr 10, 2015)

TaDor said:


> @ThePheonix : This is apparently a rather popular thing with people. to spice things up.
> 
> @eric1 : This is a multi-part response from your first posts and responses.
> 1 - Suicide would be the dumbest thing to do, nobody is worth killing yourself over. Even as bad as it got for me, pretty much the worst was a few days, here and there without the will to live. I was taking a medication that caused me to have a suicidal thought for several seconds (a possible side-effect) in which case, I stopped taking it that day - after using it for 3-4 days.
> ...


I sent him these books, thanks dude!


----------



## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

TaDor said:


> @ThePheonix : This is apparently a rather popular thing with people. to spice things up.


Sure, and adrenaline junkies do extremely dangerous stuff to get that rush. I'm going to go there and make a value judgement. If you are an adrenaline junkie who puts his/her life at risk just for a thrill, then you are an idiot. If you put your marriage and family at risk to engage in behaviors detrimental to the health of your marriage and family - just to get some extra spice - then you are an idiot.

How do you empathize with someone like in either cases when they know better but prefer to push on anyways? When it all goes sideways, who is ultimately the blame in the end? In this case, the infidelity is at best BOTH of their faults and I would certainly argue primarily the BS's fault in this case.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

It's easy to emphasize for me because every situation can be labeled with idiocy and ignorance. You know this because you used to argue, regardless of the situation, how it was both of their faults with a hint of more blame for the betrayed for "idiocy." Honestly, I may not agree, but open marriages have rules and agreements just like a regular marriage. It hurts no less than if a regular marriage betrayed spouse found out the sex rules or emotional rules were broken. Each issue is different and I can empathize because sometimes, contrary to what some believe, it isn't always idiot adrenaline junkies. Also, even idiocy hurts and I could make this same "value judgment" for every person who intentionally or unintentionally ignored their spouses needs.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> It's easy to emphasize for me because every situation can be labeled with idiocy and ignorance. *You know this because you used to argue, regardless of the situation, how it was both of their faults with a hint of more blame for the betrayed for "idiocy."* Honestly, I may not agree, but open marriages have rules and agreements just like a regular marriage. It hurts no less than if a regular marriage betrayed spouse found out the sex rules or emotional rules were broken. Each issue is different and I can empathize because sometimes, contrary to what some believe, it isn't always idiot adrenaline junkies. *Also, even idiocy hurts and I could make this same "value judgment" for every person who intentionally or unintentionally ignored their spouses needs.*


Not true. while I have in the past have shared blame on some threads, I did so on a case by case basis. I believe that there can be an objective measure for how trivial or how serious an offense can be in a marriage. I would not draw a moral equivalence between a husband pushing his wife into the hot wife fetish vs a husband forgetting one too many anniversaries. While both are dumb actions, one is significantly more serious than the other. I'm sure that you can objectively differentiate between 2 regarding severity of impact against the marriage. 

I'm not going to go down this road any further. I simply do not believe that in all cases, the WS is always 100% responsible for cheating. In the majority of cases I could believe that. However, there are too many times where I have seen situations IRL and on here where the BS was a royal asshat and ultimately torpedoed the marriage thru his or her own idiocy.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

My bad I forgot, not going to get into one of your protracted blame assessment battle derails. We disagree and it is true.


----------



## eric1 (Apr 10, 2015)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Not true. while I have in the past have shared blame on some threads, I did so on a case by case basis. I believe that there can be an objective measure for how trivial or how serious an offense can be in a marriage. I would not draw a moral equivalence between a husband pushing his wife into the hot wife fetish vs a husband forgetting one too many anniversaries. While both are dumb actions, one is significantly more serious than the other. I'm sure that you can objectively differentiate between 2 regarding severity of impact against the marriage.
> 
> I'm not going to go down this road any further. I simply do not believe that in all cases, the WS is always 100% responsible for cheating. In the majority of cases I could believe that. However, there are too many times where I have seen situations IRL and on here where the BS was a royal asshat and ultimately torpedoed the marriage thru his or her own idiocy.



He completely 100% unquestionably accepts his blame here. He also, in a very healthy manner might I add, realizes that it doesn't absolve her of her responsibilities.

I helped him look for a counselor today. A term was very apt on one of the sites. The counselor specialized in "affairs and betrayals". That's what this was-- he and her went into this with an understanding (understabably with debatable merit) but at some point she changed the rules, decided to gas light and lie to him about it for two years and only when she said she needed a few weeks to think if she wanted to stay in the marriage did it all come together for him (I guess it was the hotwife version of the ILYBINILWU speech)

From this point on his recovery is more or less similar to most infidelities. There are additional problems, such as his shared blame, but like any infidelity, that stuff needs to be handled AFTER the infidelity has stopped. It's not stopped right now. I'm good at helping people stop infidelity, once he's past this stage...well, that's why I'm strongly recommending counseling.


----------



## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Eric. Do you think it's possible she might ever really love the friend again? She doesn't respect him. How could she ever really love and admire him?
She doesn't even want to reconcile.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

eric1 said:


> It's not stopped right now. I'm good at helping people stop infidelity, once he's past this stage...well, that's why I'm strongly recommending counseling.


Until it reaches a point when she wants to stop, it may assuage things if you could talk to her and tell her to tell him, "baby, I know you don't approve of my relationship will Billy, but I want you to know when he's inside of me all I'm really thinking about is you."




In the meantime, share this with him:


----------



## eric1 (Apr 10, 2015)

Evinrude58 said:


> Eric. Do you think it's possible she might ever really love the friend again? She doesn't respect him. How could she ever really love and admire him?
> She doesn't even want to reconcile.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't know. It's part of why I want to do this. I want to see if it's possible.

In some regards I think that it's more likely than in an average affair. I mean he had pretty easy access to them -- her boyfriend sure as hell tried to wedge but since he can read her texts atleast everything was above board.

And his wife is lying to herself. This was all a "game" (I know, haha). While she fell in love with her boyfriend and if push came to shove she may leave for him, it wasn't the usual narrative that a cheating spouse built up in her head, it was more "my husband wants this, I SHOULD be doing this". This doesn't absolve her of the lying, the gas lighting and the abuse of course, but in some senses it's easier. There are very few games being played.

I don't know man, I'm still trying to figure this out myself. It would be tremendously easy if this was your standard issue freshly-betrayed. This is very challenging because of exact questions like you're asking.

But put it this way, it's not in my nature to not try. If in some way in hell he can get this to work (hopefully with an assist from me) it'll be hugely rewarding. This isn't an ostensibly happy couple who one got bored and cheated. To fix this one you need to fix both people.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

eric1 said:


> He completely 100% unquestionably accepts his blame here. He also, in a very healthy manner might I add, realizes that it doesn't absolve her of her responsibilities.
> 
> I helped him look for a counselor today. A term was very apt on one of the sites. The counselor specialized in "affairs and betrayals". That's what this was-- he and her went into this with an understanding (understabably with debatable merit) but at some point she changed the rules, decided to gas light and lie to him about it for two years and only when she said she needed a few weeks to think if she wanted to stay in the marriage did it all come together for him (I guess it was the hotwife version of the ILYBINILWU speech)
> 
> From this point on his recovery is more or less similar to most infidelities. There are additional problems, such as his shared blame, but like any infidelity, that stuff needs to be handled AFTER the infidelity has stopped. It's not stopped right now. I'm good at helping people stop infidelity, once he's past this stage...well, that's why I'm strongly recommending counseling.


I get it. With the assumption that R is the end game, you cannot address the marital issues until the affair is stopped. But your friend wiped his ass with the marriage certificate prior to the affair starting. The only recourse I can see is to try to get the wife to give the marriage an honest try for the sake of the kids. Otherwise, what else is left?


----------



## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Is friend done with the crazy ass sex ideas? Has he learned a lesson?
Do you think he will come up with another dumb idea in the future?
I can't get past the craziness of wanting to see one's wife with another man. That would be worse than death to me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Sure, and adrenaline junkies do extremely dangerous stuff to get that rush. I'm going to go there and make a value judgement. If you are an adrenaline junkie who puts his/her life at risk just for a thrill, then you are an idiot. If you put your marriage and family at risk to engage in behaviors detrimental to the health of your marriage and family - just to get some extra spice - then you are an idiot.
> 
> How do you empathize with someone like in either cases when they know better but prefer to push on anyways? When it all goes sideways, who is ultimately the blame in the end? In this case, the infidelity is at best BOTH of their faults and I would certainly argue primarily the BS's fault in this case.


I agree Plan9 with your first paragraph. It's perfect. The second one I largely do too but now the pendulum is swinging to blaming her more. I don't understand the hotwifing, cuckolding crap. It really disturbs me.


----------



## eric1 (Apr 10, 2015)

Evinrude58 said:


> Is friend done with the crazy ass sex ideas? Has he learned a lesson?
> 
> Do you think he will come up with another dumb idea in the future?
> 
> ...




I don't know if he's done with them. That's the other problem.

It's also where I need to step away - diagnosing / handling that is way beyond my pay grade.

With that said, he's been saying how much of a selfish #%^##%% she has turned into. The way I've been punting this discussion is to say that anything beyond repairing the marriage isn't on the discussion table that. And beyond that it would be a long time to even discuss that again. It's my hope that between now and that time he figures some stuff out on his own. He's shown a willingness to, I'll give him that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

sparrow55 said:


> @TaDor
> 
> What do you think ? Edit: Oh, you already posted
> I actually noticed this part
> ...


There were other problems besides the OR, but yes - I did have sex with other women. But the main issue with my wayward hooking up with a co-worker, so she saw him almost every day and she was drinking everyday. So in her mind, I was "no longer the fun one" - but I was at home taking care of our toddler.

She hasn't touched alcohol in almost 3 months. I had let her decide when to do No Contact - rather than demands from me. She also deleted his photos off her phone (in front of me). And I was there when she wrote and showed me her "good bye" text. He responded, I was okay with her response which included points that would drive the point home.

Its not been easy for her, but these are steps in the right direction. Some in our families are not happy about us trying. But I would say going to MC has been a big help already. First two, she angry and wasn't open to anything - blamed me, yadda (sound familiar?). I went by myself on #3 & 4 sessions. We've been going together for 5 & 6 and will continue onward... and is mostly blaming herself now.

So the cheater in this thread needs to be aware of what she is doing IMHO.

She (both of them) should also go to the website www.morethantwo.com and read the right column of information.


----------



## eric1 (Apr 10, 2015)

TaDor said:


> There were other problems besides the OR, but yes - I did have sex with other women. *But the main issue with my wayward hooking up with a co-worker, so she saw him almost every day and she was drinking everyday. So in her mind, I was "no longer the fun one" - but I was at home taking care of our toddler.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


this was his main issue as well. He was working 90 hours a week and thought he could have it all. He effectively not only outsourced her sexual needs but also her emotional ones (she can't disassociate sex from love)


----------



## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I simply do not believe that in all cases, the WS is always 100% responsible for cheating. In the majority of cases I could believe that. However, there are too many times where I have seen situations IRL and on here where the BS was a royal asshat and ultimately torpedoed the marriage thru his or her own idiocy.


Besides she probably doesn't look at it as cheating. The only difference between what she does with Billy and what she does with his approval and audience is that he ain't getting a thrill out of watching somebody bumping pubic bones with his wife. She likely thinks it ain't cheating just because he ain't approving what he use to approve of.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

wmn1 said:


> I agree Plan9 with your first paragraph. It's perfect. The second one I largely do too but now the pendulum is swinging to blaming her more. I don't understand the hotwifing, cuckolding crap. It really disturbs me.


It's a curious fetish. From what I have read about it, the hot wife/cuckolding fetish is very similar to what an adrenaline junkie seeks. If this is the method used to add spice to the marriage, it's clear to me that the husband in this case is willing to risk it all for the thrill of it. I guess much of the spice comes from a feeling of humiliation, so is the goal to get as close to the ledge without going over? Would not the ultimate humiliation be to actually lose your wife to the man you gave her to freely for his own sexual pleasure? 

IMHO, he achieved his goal. Sorry if I come across as a d!ck, but good God, the man has to SEE that his fetish is a cancer to his life. Get the treatment to rip the cancer out at the roots.


----------



## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

There are differences, Plan9fromOS/2.

Cuckolding is the humiliation, being the submissive to his wife's sexual desired to have sex with others. There are guys out there who *get off* on knowing & watching their wife get banged many times a week - while the husband himself may get laid once a week or a month or over 6 months. Maybe not even allowed to masturbate. Go figure - each their own. With such arrangements, a wife has little or no reason to get divorced as she has the love and support from her sub husband and all the sex with men she wants.

Hotwifing is a variant of open relationship. In which case - the husband DOES have an otherwise normal sexual / loving relationship with his wife. He gets OFF on her pleasure and watching her have sex with another man or woman, its not about being humiliated. Its a view of your SO that you can't usually see while you are both having sex with each other. Also its a way of learning other techniques that may get your wife off.

Even with my WW, she has always wanted to know what other ways to PLEASE me sexually.


----------



## eric1 (Apr 10, 2015)

ThePheonix said:


> Besides she probably doesn't look at it as cheating. The only difference between what she does with Billy and what she does with his approval and audience is that he ain't getting a thrill out of watching somebody bumping pubic bones with his wife. She likely thinks it ain't cheating just because he ain't approving what he use to approve of.




She clear that it was cheating and that more than that it was the lies which were catastrophic to their relationship.

She kind of just doesn't give a **** about that right now though.


----------



## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> It's a curious fetish. From what I have read about it, the hot wife/cuckolding fetish is very similar to what an adrenaline junkie seeks. If this is the method used to add spice to the marriage, it's clear to me that the husband in this case is willing to risk it all for the thrill of it. I guess much of the spice comes from a feeling of humiliation, so is the goal to get as close to the ledge without going over? Would not the ultimate humiliation be to actually lose your wife to the man you gave her to freely for his own sexual pleasure?
> 
> IMHO, he achieved his goal. Sorry if I come across as a d!ck, but good God, the man has to SEE that his fetish is a cancer to his life. Get the treatment to rip the cancer out at the roots.


I hope he gets the correct treatment as well. I know I would be homicidal if I had to watch my wife get laid by another guy. Nasty


----------



## sparrow55 (Apr 23, 2016)

TaDor said:


> There were other problems besides the OR, but yes - I did have sex with other women. But the main issue with my wayward hooking up with a co-worker, so she saw him almost every day and she was drinking everyday. So in her mind, I was "no longer the fun one" - but I was at home taking care of our toddler.
> 
> She hasn't touched alcohol in almost 3 months. I had let her decide when to do No Contact - rather than demands from me. She also deleted his photos off her phone (in front of me). And I was there when she wrote and showed me her "good bye" text. He responded, I was okay with her response which included points that would drive the point home.
> 
> ...



While I cannot talk about the dynamics of your relationship or R, you are going to burn out your relationships with your friends and family with that behavior of yours. You are going to get very little sympathy or help next time you need support and do not blame them for it.


----------



## Be smart (Feb 22, 2015)

Even if she breaks off with this Bill guy she will find another Bill. 

I dont feel sorry for this man or his wife. They deserve all of this. If he really loves his wife like he is saying then he would never go for this crap.
Watching other man sleep with your wife is not a fantasy or whatever he calls it,it is brain damage. 

He got money so he should hire some good therapist and a good lawyer.


----------



## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

@sparrow55 : noted, sincerely. Also, since she has been exposed - it wouldn't do herself any favors to cheat again either.


----------



## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

TaDor said:


> @sparrow55 : noted, sincerely. Also, since she has been exposed - it wouldn't do herself any favors to cheat again either.


If she decided she wants to continue doing Bill or anybody else, what the hell anybody going to do about it? She ain't going to jail over it.
Her old man won't do much more than bellyache and say he's going to off himself. The sad part is if he does, in five or so years few will remember his name.


----------



## niceguy28 (May 6, 2016)

Some folks have been very judgement but sex and emotional attachment are two different things. When it's just sex it's almost like the wife is using the other guy as a human sex toy. When there are emotions attached to it then it becomes and affair. If the wife chose to hang out with the other guy over the husband then they are moving into an open relationship which is clearly not what the husband wants. You need to tell you buddy to man up and stop giving this woman so much power over him. Wife or not NOBODY is going to make me think about killing myself.


----------



## CH (May 18, 2010)

Too many times couples try the lifestyle to try and fix a marriage. And there are alot of predators who lurk in that community looking for those with shaky marriages. 

We looked into it for a while but it wasn't for us and OMG the amount of PMs you got was crazy and almost always from posters who just recently signed up. They troll the welcome section to seek out newly joined couples who might be interested in the lifestyle.

The pictures were the worst, I don't think I've ever seen so many naked pics of guys ever....shudders And some of them were not pretty.  

Best kept as a fantasy for most of us. I know that some have made it work and kudos to you but the majority of us can't handle reality from fantasy.


----------



## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

niceguy28 said:


> Some folks have been very judgement but sex and emotional attachment are two different things. When it's just sex it's almost like the wife is using the other guy as a human sex toy.


Like I said, the wife should master the technique to tell her husband, "Honey, when he's inside of me, all I'm thinking about is you." 



CH said:


> And there are alot of predators who lurk in that community looking for those with shaky marriages.


Why is that a predator? Its just guys who are willing to put the time and talent into fulfilling your fantasy.


----------



## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

What woman would want a relationship with a man that wants to see her f another guy?

I wonder of ol' bill will want to share her?

Thing is, bill isn't divorcing his wife.

The stupidity of not exposing to bill's wife is only eclipsed by the stupidity of signing his wife up to AM. I really thought the AM site was a scam, anyway. Apparently there really are guys that will knowingly share their wife.
I don't share.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## eric1 (Apr 10, 2015)

OK here is a recent text exchange that I had with him. I understand a lot of this is about his decisions leading up to this, but what would you say? There is a child involved here too.

Him: Why is she so angry at me?? I feel like I'm the victim here... How much ****ing sense does that make??!!

Him: I feel like I just wanna find someone that actually gives a **** about me...

Me: So when I talk about knocking her off the fence that is part to atleast give her the opportunity to move on. Getting over that ****

Me: But it also gives you the opportunity to really see where her mind is 

Me: But know this feeling that you deserve better is ironically also the only thing that could save marriage. You both have to be in it because you really want to

Me: Another form of knocking her off of the fence is just telling her that you don't want to be married

Me: best forms of fence knocking are exposure followed by therapy. I'm assuming it would not help to serve papers since there are so many business variables, we can chat about that though


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

This isn't a "OMG, my man was neglecting me and wouldn't listen waaaaaah" type of affair or "She wasn't giving me sex waaaaaaah" one either. It almost sounds like the other posters thread where the wife's weren't really into it and they found a person who didn't want to share. You know, the thing they actually wanted in the first place.

He needs to stop worrying about trying to save the marriage. He broke it and she will always have that urge in her head somewhere. He needs to knock marriage off the pedestal, not the wife. She'll be collateral damage at that point.


----------



## Be smart (Feb 22, 2015)

Eric you cant help this man if he refuse to help himself. Simple as that.


----------



## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

It absolutely amazes me how guys convince themselves that they can get off by watching somebody do their old lady and, so long as everybody stays within the rules, it good to go in maintaining a fulfilling and complete marriage, sex and love are different dogs, etc. etc.
Yet some of the same folks preaching how wife sharing and open marriage are a workable lifestyle, they point out the dangers and recommend that your wife (or husband) stay away from forming close friendships with the opposite sex because it often leads to an affair. 
I scratch and head and wonder how these fools can believe a close friendship with a opposite sex coworker is opening a can of worms but fvcking another person in an "open/sharing" relationship is not in beyond my comprehension. A friendship can become to close for comfort but when another guys is in the saddle and bringing your old lady to multiple orgasms, its as close as it get. 
During my years as an escort, I must have participated in a couple of dozen of these arrangement. Ain't a one that's still married and all but a couple had the wife break the "rules" by meeting me on the side.
How many guys do you think a woman has to screw before she finds someone that better in the sack than you?


----------



## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

niceguy28 said:


> Some folks have been very judgement but sex and emotional attachment are two different things. When it's just sex it's almost like the wife is using the other guy as a human sex toy. When there are emotions attached to it then it becomes and affair. If the wife chose to hang out with the other guy over the husband then they are moving into an open relationship which is clearly not what the husband wants. You need to tell you buddy to man up and stop giving this woman so much power over him. Wife or not NOBODY is going to make me think about killing myself.


When she's using him as a human sex toy, it's still an affair and to many people, sexual affairs are as bad and maybe even worse than an emotional one


----------



## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

ThePheonix said:


> It absolutely amazes me how guys convince themselves that they can get off by watching somebody do their old lady and, so long as everybody stays within the rules, it good to go in maintaining a fulfilling and complete marriage, sex and love are different dogs, etc. etc.
> Yet some of the same folks preaching how wife sharing and open marriage are a workable lifestyle, they point out the dangers and recommend that your wife (or husband) stay away from forming close friendships with the opposite sex because it often leads to an affair.
> I scratch and head and wonder how these fools can believe a close friendship with a opposite sex coworker is opening a can of worms but fvcking another person in an "open/sharing" relationship is not in beyond my comprehension. A friendship can become to close for comfort but when another guys is in the saddle and bringing your old lady to multiple orgasms, its as close as it get.
> During my years as an escort, I must have participated in a couple of dozen of these arrangement. Ain't a one that's still married and all but a couple had the wife break the "rules" by meeting me on the side.
> How many guys do you think a woman has to screw before she finds someone that better in the sack than you?


I agree with you, Phoenix. It baffles my mind too. To me, it's mental illness to crave seeing your wife with another man let alone encouraging it and setting it up. To me, it';s intolerable


----------



## niceguy28 (May 6, 2016)

ThePheonix said:


> It absolutely amazes me how guys convince themselves that they can get off by watching somebody do their old lady and, so long as everybody stays within the rules, it good to go in maintaining a fulfilling and complete marriage, sex and love are different dogs, etc. etc.
> Yet some of the same folks preaching how wife sharing and open marriage are a workable lifestyle, they point out the dangers and recommend that your wife (or husband) stay away from forming close friendships with the opposite sex because it often leads to an affair.
> I scratch and head and wonder how these fools can believe a close friendship with a opposite sex coworker is opening a can of worms but fvcking another person in an "open/sharing" relationship is not in beyond my comprehension. A friendship can become to close for comfort but when another guys is in the saddle and bringing your old lady to multiple orgasms, its as close as it get.
> During my years as an escort, I must have participated in a couple of dozen of these arrangement. Ain't a one that's still married and all but a couple had the wife break the "rules" by meeting me on the side.
> How many guys do you think a woman has to screw before she finds someone that better in the sack than you?


Yea that is the risk of that. I'm not advocating for it but I'm just saying that you can do that and have it not be cheating. The problem is that men can separate sex from emotions but 99% of women cannot. This is where these guys run into trouble and why a lot of the marriages fail. I always recommend guys in these situations not flipping out over the emotional attachment and understand that this is a consequence of their decision. If they want their wives to stop that then they need to a) tell her that it's a problem and b) tell her that if she has somebody on the side they will to. Preferably someone younger and prettier than her. A lot of women have serious insecurity and jealousy issues and sometimes this can cause them to come back to their senses. I'm not in an open marriage but if my wife did this I wouldn't even really care about getting her back. I would tell her good luck and to go right ahead and make herself happy and be on my merry wife. I'm just like that though.


----------



## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

If both agree, its not cheating. The only other thing I want to add is folks ridiculous comparison to women using the men as nothing more than a sex toy. That's like saying widow thumb and her four daughters are comparable to a hot and talented woman in the sack. Give me a break. I think the girls in these type lifestyles tell their old man that to keep them from pulling it plug. "Oh honey, that hunk is just a sex toy. I really want to be cowgirling your lard ass and beer gut." 
A lady I knew once said nothing can get her off as fast as John Henry, the nickname she gave her powered sex toy. But, she added, she'll take something that doesn't require batteries any day of the week.


----------



## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Evinrude58 said:


> Is friend done with the crazy ass sex ideas? Has he learned a lesson?
> Do you think he will come up with another dumb idea in the future?
> I can't get past the craziness of wanting to see one's wife with another man. That would be worse than death to me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He would be carried out. DRT!


----------



## eric1 (Apr 10, 2015)

Looking into how people would accept something like this - one observation is that he has an extremely unhealthy codependency toward her. It's slowly being broken, it's how he was able to call it off. But it's weird. It's almost like he is scared to even kind of upset her.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

eric1 said:


> Looking into how people would accept something like this - one observation is that he has an extremely unhealthy codependency toward her. It's slowly being broken, it's how he was able to call it off. But it's weird. It's almost like he is scared to even kind of upset her.


Yep. Dude is cracked. The doc needs to put humpty dumpty back together again. IMHO, the last thing he needs to be in is a relationship. He needs to figure out what a real relationship is before he can get back into a new one. Let's face it, his marriage is dead.


----------

