# Wife's affair, how to move forward?



## B1

I am the husband of empty inside, thread titled "How much detail". I cannot argue with my wifes post, it's pretty accurate, I was void of emotion, feelings, of life in general. Life had chewed me up and spit me out. My wife did try everything to get my attention, therapy, lost weight, bought sexy oufits, clothes etc.. she did try but I was just not available. So...

I knew there was a 3mo affair last year in Feb through April and we dealt with that last year. I thought there was NC since. Boy was I wrong.
I found out a few weeks ago they were talking again (via phone records again)and she said that they started talking again a few months ago and that was it. Then she admitted to dinner and lunch a few times...again we dealt with it, she established NC and has been NC since. I have FB passwords, phone records, she has opened everything up to me.

She posted on here about her situation and got blasted, and got angry but overall it helped her. 
Now, as of yesterday, she has confessed that the affair really picked back up in July last year and lasted until a few weeks ago. This was a emotional and very sexual affair, they were pretty much dating, going out to dinner,lunch etc. he has her picture on his mantel! 
I am so lost and confused now, I dont know what I am supposed to do? I forgave the 3mo. affair. and even the, what I thought was a 3mo EA, We never really dealt with it though, a few counseling sessions etc. but never really talked much. 
This time when I though it was just an EA for a few months we have talked more and cried more than ever, well I cried more than ever..the pain is just so raw and unbelievable. NC had been established, not sure though were we are going right now. Not sure of anything except I hurt, I ache, and yes I take blame in the breakdown of our marriage and the emotional neglect but it doesn't make it hurt any less. I do love her, I am in love with her, part of me wants to work it out and part wants to say go away, she is being open and honest now and the truth hurts, and my imagination of porn start sex is pretty much validated too. God, how do I compete, how do I go on, how do I trust, how do I ever make love to her again knowing she had the best sex ever for 16 months. I am rambling now...sorry.
I think I want to work it out, she said she held this truth back waiting for counseling to tell about it becuase she knew it would be the nail in the coffin. She still isn't ready for a heart felt sorry, she still gets defensive a bit and points out my faults as to why she did it. And there is truth to the why, I was neglectful, she tried to seduce me but I was a cold wall of silence. btw. the other man had said he would not commit, would never marry and he didn't like the fact she was married, nice stand up guy huh. 
Also, she has been tested for STD's, everything is good there.
I am on testosterone injections which have helped immensley, that was a huge part of the problem.
Counseling is also scheduled for both of us.

am I an idiot for wanting to work it out, is it possible, can I trust again, when will my imagination stop running wild?

Thanks for anyone who gives there inupt, good or bad, your time is appreciate.


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## warlock07

Can you trust her again? She lied and cheated repeatedly. Why is it different this time?

With the resentment she has for you, earning trust will be hard. Without trust, there is no marriage. Why do you want her back? is there enough love left in the marriage. The mind movies will be there for a long time to come


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## MadeInMichigan

Wow.....leave now, run, fix yourself then find a GOOD woman who will love, respect and appreciate the new you.


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## cpacan

betrayed1 said:


> She still isn't ready for a heart felt sorry, she still gets defensive a bit and points out my faults as to why she did it. And there is truth to the why, I was neglectful, she tried to seduce me but I was a cold wall of silence. btw. the other man had said he would not commit, would never marry and he didn't like the fact she was married, nice stand up guy huh.


This is why it is going to extremely difficult. As it has been pointed out several times in your wife's thread, she doesn't show remorse and claims that it is you that made her cheat.

I struggle with this myself and it is very uphill, when your spouse doesn't see that it is their own choice to cheat.

You take part of the blame for the breakdown of your marriage, she must do that as well. But the choice to cheat, that's on her, all alone. Always remember this.


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## Jellybeans

If she won't commit to No contact, be done.

Which poster was she? Can you link us her story?


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## TBT

Jellybeans said:


> If she won't commit to No contact, be done.
> 
> Which poster was she? Can you link us her story?


Empty Inside-How much detail?


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## Jellybeans

Just the link to her story/thread.


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## warlock07

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/48469-how-much-detail.html


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## TBT

Hi b1.just wondering what's left to save? Your WW made it very clear in her post that she doesn't love you and is in love with OM.Her posts seems more about easing her conscience.Can you see this ever really being resolved?


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## lordmayhem

Jellybeans said:


> If she won't commit to No contact, be done.


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## warlock07

TBT said:


> Hi b1.just wondering what's left to save? Your WW made it very clear in her post that she doesn't love you and is in love with OM.Her posts seems more about easing her conscience.Can you see this ever really being resolved?


She had explanations for everything except the repeated lying and deceit. Atleast she should have broken up or decided to divorce after the first D-day. But she took it underground and continued it. She did not mention this part in her post, right?


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## Jellybeans

Warlock--thanks for linking.

OP--my advice is to file for divorce. In her thread she makes it clear she is "in love" with the other man. That isn't just your garden variety affair. She is emotionally invested. 

You can both move on to find something more beneficial to you.


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## B1

Jellybeans said:


> If she won't commit to No contact, be done.
> 
> Which poster was she? Can you link us her story?


Here is the link:
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/48469-how-much-detail.html


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## Hicks

betrayed1 said:


> am I an idiot for wanting to work it out, is it possible, can I trust again, when will my imagination stop running wild?


Can you trust her? No. You should never trust any woman to stay faithful when her emotional needs are not being met. You learned this the hard way. Now your wife experienced having her needs met the way she was aching for. You should know that it's always a possiblity / probablity that she will gravitate toward it again. However, look at it this way. You were a man defeated by life, afraid of everything, depressed. This is why she went away from you. A man who decides that this is what he wants to do, takes ownership for his actions, and takes a risk that it may not all work out is the same man your wife is attracted to.

Are you an idiot? I would look at it as a chance to improve yourself to be attractive to a woman. You made many mistakes and if you ever get with a new woman and do the same mistakes, the same end result will occur. So, you have a chance to learn how to be an attractive man, with a woman who seems to be willing to stick with you. You will learn alot. So, rather than be all weepy and hurt, take ownership for your role and own the reasons you want to work it out.


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## warlock07

OP, your wife put the OM on the pedestal as a sex god. Can you get over that? Even now, she wants to fix because what the OM told her.(yeah, right. he asked her to fix the marriage after f*cking her for 18 months. Most likely he wants to get rid of her. ). She does not want to look bad before the OM. So she will try half heartedly for a while on her terms. This will slowly kill you. Unless she begs to make the marriage work on your terms, you have no business of trying to reconcile.


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## Almostrecovered

Your wife is filled with excuses, justifications and hardly any reasons to stay with you other than your child's needs, financial security (since she is a SAHM) and there's not one mention of love other than to say it is a fraternal like love. She still pines for OM, mentions how great he is in the sack and how the only reason it is NC for now is because he stopped it until she D's.


You have not one iota of a remorseful spouse to have a successful R

read this: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/24796-just-let-them-go.html#post306559


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## B1

Jellybeans said:


> If she won't commit to No contact, be done.
> 
> Which poster was she? Can you link us her story?


She has stopped all contact, I have FB passwords, cell records etc. NC is established. Now that he knows I know and that I actually do care she says he would never contact her now, and she has promised not to contact him. She admits it's not easy and the days are long but she says she has to get over him and move on...now the question is, is it with me or without me. I have to decide that. Still not 100% sure what we all want here...she doesn't want me to call him and tell him to NC, she says it would crush him. She is still very concerned about his feelings. Can a marriage work through something like this?
is it even possible?


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## MadeInMichigan

Pack her a bag.....you need to move on. Look closely at what you just posted. Good God, man.


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## morituri

Not only has your trust in her has been broken but her trust in you as well. From her POV, she doesn't believe that you can ever be capable of being the man she needs and is bitter and resentful of any attempts on your part to change when she tried many times in the past to get you to be the husband she needed. She sees them as insincere, too little too late. Don't get me wrong, what she did was totally wrong and cowardly for she had the option to divorce you so she could then find a man who would satisfy her needs.

My suggestion is to divorce her and move on. As Hicks said, this is an opportunity for you to improve as a man *BUT in another relationship with another woman.*


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## cabin fever

UMMMM, PHUCK THE OM's Feelings! He should have thought of that before. 

I find it disgusting that your wife is concerned with the OM's feelings. I say phuckin crush him! 


Just my .02, but I would chit can your wife too. The funny part is it sounds like the OM was just banging her, and she fell in love with him.


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## lordmayhem

betrayed1 said:


> She has stopped all contact, I have FB passwords, cell records etc. NC is established. Now that he knows I know and that I actually do care she says he would never contact her now, and she has promised not to contact him. She admits it's not easy and the days are long but she says she has to get over him and move on...now the question is, is it with me or without me. I have to decide that. Still not 100% sure what we all want here...she doesn't want me to call him and tell him to NC, she says it would crush him. She is still very concerned about his feelings. Can a marriage work through something like this?
> is it even possible?


Having facebook passwords and the cell records aren't enough by themselves! Do you realize how very easy it is to create a secret facebook account or email account? Do you know just how easy it is to get one of those disposable pay as you go burner phones? My own WW created a secret facebook account that I didn't know about. 

*She LOVES the OM.* She will break NC, guarantee it. One of them will fish for renewed contact. It will be something as simple as "how are you, are you okay, missing you, etc, etc."

She's already admitted like others have said, that *OM is a sex god*. How can you move forward from something like this. You're going to be experiencing the mind movies (images of them having sex in your head). 

*Get this through your head: You are the backup plan*. You are only the babysitter, the one who pays the bills. You are just the second choice that she has to settle for so it won't upset her comfortable life as a Stay At Home Mom (SAHM). 

*Your WW is one of the worst kinds of cheaters: The cake eater*. She wants to keep the safety and security of marriage, while having the freedom to have her OM. In other words, you are just being used for financial security. That's all. Sorry if that's harsh, but its the truth.


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## snap

Hicks said:


> Can you trust her? No. You should never trust any woman to stay faithful when her emotional needs are not being met.


While am clearly jaded, I'd still like to believe the above doesn't hold true to every woman out there.


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## Almostrecovered

if I had to be a bookmaker here and set the odds on what would happen if you stayed:

1.1 to 1: affair starts up again and goes underground (if it isn't already underground right now), maybe in another year or three, she finally leaves you

150 to 1: She stays NC but rugsweeps and never admits fault or works on the marriage or helps you heal, marriage stays lackluster sexless and overall crappy. Maybe a fleeting moment of happiness here and there but overall pure limbo and hell. You try your best to be a great husband but it never works as it takes two to make a marriage work.

1000 to 1: she makes a miraculous turn around and really changes and becomes the wife you always wanted, takes full blame for the affair and does everything you need to heal.

(Odds are based on this particular situation, not overall R attempts)


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## Almostrecovered

snap said:


> While am clearly jaded, I'd still like to believe the above doesn't hold true to every woman out there.


snap you are surprisingly not jaded considering what you went thru


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## warlock07

betrayed1 said:


> She has stopped all contact, I have FB passwords, cell records etc. NC is established. Now that he knows I know and that I actually do care she says he would never contact her now, and she has promised not to contact him. She admits it's not easy and the days are long but she says she has to get over him and move on...now the question is, is it with me or without me. I have to decide that. Still not 100% sure what we all want here...she doesn't want me to call him and tell him to NC, she says it would crush him. She is still very concerned about his feelings. Can a marriage work through something like this?
> is it even possible?


And you give a f*ck about it because ? And what about your feelings? Look, she wants to be in good terms with him in case her half-assed attempt at R with you doesn't work. Atleast that tells you how serious she is about the marriage.

And what is wrong with you? Why do you want her back now? You made a mistake of ignoring her all these years and now you want her back for some unknown reasons. make a proper decision atleast once. Sometimes, it is for the best to let go. Imagine how your marriage needs to be in the best case scenario if you indeed R. Do you see that happening?


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## aug

betrayed1 said:


> She has stopped all contact, I have FB passwords, cell records etc. NC is established. Now that he knows I know and that I actually do care she says he would never contact her now, and she has promised not to contact him. She admits it's not easy and the days are long but she says she has to get over him and move on...now the question is, is it with me or without me. I have to decide that. Still not 100% sure what we all want here...she doesn't want me to call him and tell him to NC, she says it would crush him. She is still very concerned about his feelings. Can a marriage work through something like this?
> is it even possible?



We here are not emotionally invested in your relationship. So, our eyes are clearer. You need to see it this way...

The other man (OM) is letting her go. He had his fun with her for 18 months and is now getting bored with her. 

She is getting dumped by the OM. No doubt about that.

Her heart and mind and soul are still with the other man. She has lost her love for you. 

Even if she stays with you now, her soul has left the relationship. If she stays, or you take her back, the relationship will be based on pity or desperation -- and that's fatal to your spirit.


Realize her cheating is 100% on her. She had many other choices before she started to cheat -- for example, do a separation/divorce. Or, see a counselor before the adultery. Or, insisted that you see a doctor for checkup. 

She's in her 50's. The OM has lots of choices of women in that age bracket. Why would he even want to burden himself with the baggage she has now? He also knows she's a cheater. 

Give yourself time. In a few months, you'll see that you have choices. Dont make the decision to reconcile with her yet. She spent the last 2 years deceiving you. Give yourself some time to come to terms with that.


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## Jellybeans

It's clear OP is in his own fog right now. We can tell him LOGiCALLY what makes sense but he won't do it. Because he is still in love w/ a fantasy. Much like his wife is.


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## Maricha75

betrayed1 said:


> She has stopped all contact, I have FB passwords, cell records etc. NC is established. Now that he knows I know and that I actually do care she says he would never contact her now, and she has promised not to contact him. She admits it's not easy and the days are long but she says she has to get over him and move on...now the question is, is it with me or without me. I have to decide that. Still not 100% sure what we all want here...*she doesn't want me to call him and tell him to NC, she says it would crush him.* She is still very concerned about his feelings. Can a marriage work through something like this?
> is it even possible?


And? CRUSH HIM! You have no reason to spare the OM feelings. For that matter, your WW feelings shouldn't cloud your judgement here either. Send a NC letter to this man, whether your wife likes it or not. If she doesn't like it... SHOW HER THE DOOR!


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## aug

Almostrecovered said:


> 1000 to 1: she makes a miraculous turn around and really changes and becomes the wife you always wanted, takes full blame for the affair and does everything you need to heal.



Well, if this one, then she can perhaps (now that she has the experience with a sex god) teach her husband some of the sex god moves.

But, oh, what a trigger that would be for the both of them!


Still, the best bottom line is to move on.


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## hookares

"am I an idiot for wanting to work it out, is it possible, can I trust again, when will my imagination stop running wild?"
Take it from a guy who was an idiot for over twenty years:
Yes, you are being an idiot to think you can ever trust this woman again.
Move on and try to do better with your next love interest should you decide to have another.


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## Maricha75

Hicks said:


> Can you trust her? No. You should never trust any woman to stay faithful when her emotional needs are not being met.


Hicks, I did have an EA, but when it came to actually having a PA, whether long term or ONS, I couldn't do it. I was given the opportunity twice. Both times, I turned the guy down. Yes, the man was attractive (to me). In the end, I realized that I love my husband too much to take that step. Glad I realized all this before it was too late for us.

ETA: However, in the case of the OP... he needs to move on.


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## aug

Also note that you had already gave her chances to return to the marriage, and she turned you down and instead kept fvcking the other man.


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## lordmayhem

aug said:


> The other man (OM) is letting her go. He had his fun with her for 18 months and is now getting bored with her.


:iagree:

*Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?* She was a sex toy for the OM. He doesn't actually want the baggage of being with her. Then he'd have to support her and her lifestyle since she doesn't work. OM is more than content to let you foot the bills while he bangs your wife. 

Don't believe for a second that the OM feels bad that she's married and that's why he's cooled it down for now. Its only because she got caught.


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## snap

Pause for a second and think, why did she point you to this site?

Really. She knew what kind of advice you'll be given here.

She wants to break it off with you. She wants you to initiate the divorce, to ease her guilt.


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## Jellybeans

I thought she said in her thread that HE found this site and read her story on it. 

But I agree: she is done.


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## iheartlife

betrayed1 said:


> she doesn't want me to call him and tell him to NC, she says it would crush him. She is still very concerned about his feelings.


I have read quite a few disgusting things that have come out of cheater's mouths to their spouses. This ranks right up there. This is coming from such a profoundly selfish place--and considering what she has done, that says quite a bit.

There is only one redeeming bit of value from this statement: she is telling you the truth and you know it.

As everyone else has said, she is not in the marriage for you at all, she is in it for the security of her house and finances after Mr. Wonderful refused to take this relationship beyond the level of fantasy fun.

You deserve someone WHO PUTS *YOUR* FEELINGS FIRST. Get some self-respect, sir and show this incredibly self-centered person the door.


P.S. I was the emotionally neglectful spouse who was betrayed by her husband's affair. We are reconciled and recommitted.


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## morituri

betrayed1,

The problem with your situation is that the changes the two of you would making would be for the wrong reasons. These false changes never last. If you make changes, let them be for YOUR benefit, not hers - this applies to her as well. These are true and permanent changes which will transcend the life of the marriage.

If your wife's affair had been simply a sexual affair, and she was remorseful enough to move heaven and earth to help rebuild the marriage, then I wouldn't be so pessimistic about the chances of reconciling with her. Unfortunately, your wife not only had a passionate sexual affair but an emotional affair as well (though one sided) with a man unwilling to have an open relationship with her even if she divorces you. Like the other forum members have already stated, she is back with you, not out of remorse for having betrayed you but because you are hell fall back option. Why would you ever want to be any woman's option of last resort?


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## akashNil

betrayed1 said:


> I am the husband of empty inside, thread titled "How much detail". I cannot argue with my wifes post, it's pretty accurate, I was void of emotion, feelings, of life in general. Life had chewed me up and spit me out. My wife did try everything to get my attention, therapy, lost weight, bought sexy oufits, clothes etc.. she did try but I was just not available. So...
> 
> I knew there was a 3mo affair last year in Feb through April and we dealt with that last year. I thought there was NC since. Boy was I wrong.
> I found out a few weeks ago they were talking again (via phone records again)and she said that they started talking again a few months ago and that was it. Then she admitted to dinner and lunch a few times...again we dealt with it, she established NC and has been NC since. I have FB passwords, phone records, she has opened everything up to me.
> 
> She posted on here about her situation and got blasted, and got angry but overall it helped her.
> Now, as of yesterday, she has confessed that the affair really picked back up in July last year and lasted until a few weeks ago. This was a emotional and very sexual affair, they were pretty much dating, going out to dinner,lunch etc. he has her picture on his mantel!
> I am so lost and confused now, I dont know what I am supposed to do? I forgave the 3mo. affair. and even the, what I thought was a 3mo EA, We never really dealt with it though, a few counseling sessions etc. but never really talked much.
> This time when I though it was just an EA for a few months we have talked more and cried more than ever, well I cried more than ever..the pain is just so raw and unbelievable. NC had been established, not sure though were we are going right now. Not sure of anything except I hurt, I ache, and yes I take blame in the breakdown of our marriage and the emotional neglect but it doesn't make it hurt any less. I do love her, I am in love with her, part of me wants to work it out and part wants to say go away, she is being open and honest now and the truth hurts, and my imagination of porn start sex is pretty much validated too. God, how do I compete, how do I go on, how do I trust, how do I ever make love to her again knowing she had the best sex ever for 16 months. I am rambling now...sorry.
> I think I want to work it out, she said she held this truth back waiting for counseling to tell about it becuase she knew it would be the nail in the coffin. She still isn't ready for a heart felt sorry, she still gets defensive a bit and points out my faults as to why she did it. And there is truth to the why, I was neglectful, she tried to seduce me but I was a cold wall of silence. btw. the other man had said he would not commit, would never marry and he didn't like the fact she was married, nice stand up guy huh.
> Also, she has been tested for STD's, everything is good there.
> I am on testosterone injections which have helped immensley, that was a huge part of the problem.
> Counseling is also scheduled for both of us.
> 
> am I an idiot for wanting to work it out, is it possible, can I trust again, when will my imagination stop running wild?
> 
> Thanks for anyone who gives there inupt, good or bad, your time is appreciate.


The question is not whether to D or R.
the question is who leaves first.


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## AngryandUsed

I read the empty inside's thread. Started typing. Stopped myself. Really could not.

How can a woman love two men at a time? Sorry. This is inconceivable to me.

If her husband was not attentive, she should have quit the marriage. There is no way an affair of that sort could be justified.

Sorry, B1, you are here. I am really sorry.


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## Toffer

Head for the nearest exit

She has lied to you repeatedly over time. She has allowed another man to have here time and time again even after she told you that she was done with him. 

"She still isn't ready for a heart felt sorry, she still gets defensive a bit and points out my faults as to why she did it."

She has no remorse

I can't even finish reading the thread it's so depressing what this woman, the one who SWORE to love you before all others, has done to you and continues to do so.

Please leave her now! She is someone who cares for nothing for anyone else!


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## Shaggy

Crush the jerk OM. Post him on cheaterville.com, consider posting your wife as welll
Drain the bank accounts , inform friends and family and offer to drive her to the OM where she can now live with the noble sex god. If he really is that good why is he single and having to bang someone else's wife?

Now once she is out the door, continue those testosterone treatments and go find yourself a worthy partner for your heart and bed. You wll find that the tables are really turned around as youve gotten older. There are far far more hot women than good available men out there, and they are very eager to compete for you. They won't cheat and belittle you like your wife has.

You can seriously upgrade.

Her, the best she will be able to manage is this guy who doesn't want to commit, and who once he finds he has to put up with her day to day crap, complaining, yapping, etc. will very quickly loose interest and dump her into the street.

You are hurt, but you hold the strongest cards. Stop chasing her, stop. Putting up with her worrying about the sleazebag who uses married women for sex. Trash him, call him out, expose him to the world for the piece of human garbage guys like him are. Cheaterville.com should be your first stop. Follow it up with an email to friends and family where you outright name him as the trash your wife has been cheating with.

Btw. Who bought all those dinners and presents for the OM. Your wife no doubt spent your money on him. Bleed every cent from her that you can.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Zanna

I'm really sorry for your pain. Your wife had many options before her prior to her affair and she thought of no one but herself.

You own your half and the marriage problems and she owns hers BUT the decision to have the affair is all on her.

From what I've read, it sounds like she's using you. Good and faithful men will stay far away from a woman who uses an affair to solve problems. If she wanted to leave the marriage because it was not working or because she lost all her love for you, then she should have left gracefully and with honor. She could have left you without adding the pain of betrayal to what would have already been a difficult emotional experience. But instead of being fair and thoughtful, your wife made it all about her and her feelings. I too was in a marriage where I felt neglected and emotionally abused and I didn't cheat but I was contemplating divorce.

You have a chance to learn from your mistakes and find a good honest woman without the stain of adultery. If I leave my marriage, I would never enter into a relationship with a cheater. Yes, some can and will change but why take the chance with someone you already know is capable of being so cruel to someone they once loved enough to promise to love forever.


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## crossbar

betrayed1 said:


> She has stopped all contact, I have FB passwords, cell records etc. NC is established. Now that he knows I know and that I actually do care she says he would never contact her now, and she has promised not to contact him. She admits it's not easy and the days are long but she says she has to get over him and move on...now the question is, is it with me or without me. I have to decide that. Still not 100% sure what we all want here...*she doesn't want me to call him and tell him to NC, she says it would crush him. She is still very concerned about his feelings.* Can a marriage work through something like this?
> is it even possible?



Dude, she's more concerned about HIS feelings than yours. That should be a big red flag there. And by the way. Her having an affair is NOT YOUR FAULT. She did this, not you. So, her trying to place blame on you is just low. Her trying to say, "Well, you didn't do this, that or the other so that's why I had the affair" is just stupid. She made the choice to cheat. No one held a gun to her head. She made a choice. This wasn't your fault.


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## keko

*Wife's affair, how to move forward?*

Empty the join bank accounts/credit cards, put all of the financial documents/valuables into a safe, retain an attorney and have him draft divorce papers once they're ready change the locks, put her stuff in garbage bags and hand them over to her with divorce papers.


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## mahike

I am jumping in late my wife cheated on me after 29 years. We are trying to R but we still have a ways to go. My wife from the start took the blame did not try to blame shift anything on me. She gets upset with her self for what she has done.

28 years is a long time but she blames you. That is no place to start an R. 

Whatever you do do it for yourself. Get to the DR and get yourself checked out. Take care of yourself and see and IC as soon as you can it will help. I am sorry you are here. People on these boards will lift you up and give you direction if you let them.


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## Thorburn

My marriage is 29 years as of Monday.

Take your time on this. You do have time. Set a date a few months from now and see how things are. Your wife is still in the fog and may come around. Work on you, you can't control her.

Don't D hastily. Things might turn around.


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## EI

You all are enjoying this way too much, aren't you? It's very easy to be on the outside..... casting judgement on me, without knowing all of the facts, because many of you are projecting your own pain at having been betrayed onto me. So many of my words in my original posts have been twisted so much that they bear no resemblance to the truth. I never once said that my AP was a "sex God." I said, "the physical intimacy with my AP was like nothing I have ever experienced. I had no idea that it could really be that way." Not quite the same as calling him a "sex God." The reason that it was different is because I felt wanted, desired, beautiful. With respect to my husband, I think that even he made it clear that he neglected me in that area. I have been choosing my words carefully because it is NOT my intention to hurt someone that I love and have loved for 31 of my 48 years of life. 

You all have said that I should have gone to counseling, should have scheduled my husband a doctor's appointment, etc..... I have been in counseling for a couple of years, my husband also went to counseling and to a doctor about his issues. I put in a great deal of time, effort and self-evaluation, trying to make the changes that I needed to make for myself and for our marriage.... months, years.... lots of time. I asked, begged, pleaded, demanded over and over, again, that my husband be a partner, a companion, a friend, a lover and not just a roommate and finally threatened my husband with divorce. NOTHING changed. He seemed determined that this was our "lot in life," life was tough, he felt defeated and lacked any and all motivation to make any changes. He seemed content to be miserable and just thought that I should remain miserable, too. I was for a long time, but I couldn't stay that way forever. I didn't want to wake up in the mornings. I really didn't think that it was good for our children to see their parents in such a defeated state. I have been called selfish and far worse on these threads. I was the care-giver for both of my parents for many years throughout lengthy illnesses. I buried, both, my brother and my father within 16 days of one another 8 years ago. My brother was single and that left no one but me to take care of the arrangements and he had left no plans or provisions. My husband and I have raised 5 children, including our special needs son. He has Cerebral-Palsy and is Mentally Retarded due to being extremely pre-mature. He is wheel-chair bound and wears diapers. Now, that he is legally an adult and requires guardianship I am his legal guardian. He lives at home. Was my husband here for me through all of that.... YES, but he couldn't move beyond the heartache, devastation and defeat of the many challenges that life had handed to us. He did go to work everyday and come home for which I was very grateful. But, we didn't talk, go anywhere, do anything, spend any time together. We had no plans, hopes, dreams, or goals. Just despair. I would plan little weekend get-a-ways for the two of us.... it was never easy because making arrangements for our son was almost impossible. I was hoping that by getting away from everything for a little while it would give our marriage some new energy. My husband would reluctantly come along, but even when we were away he wouldn't touch me. This went on for years. Have you ever been so lonely, so empty that you physically ached to be touched. No matter how many times or ways I tried to talk to him about this he always shut me out and shut himself down. I felt that there must be something terribly wrong with me. He suggested that I was shallow for wanting "sex!" Deep down I knew that it was much more than sex that was missing. We weren't connecting emotionally or physically. I wanted a connection. I wanted to feel alive. I began to believe that I was some kind of heinous monster that was so unappealing. I worked really hard to become desirable for him. No matter how much I weighed I was too heavy, too thin, too much cellulite, boobs too big, face too thin.... loosing weight, gaining weight, exercising, tanning (oops, now I was too tan) I was ying-yanging myself all over the place trying to find out what was wrong with me so that I could "fix" myself and be desirable. Should I have gotten a divorce?..... YES! But, it isn't that easy. We still have children at home, they are young adults working and attending local colleges.... one is still in high school, we have a handicapped accessible house and we have financial obligations. I am not living the big life on my husband's hard work. Nor did I spend one dime of our money on my AP. He took me out to lunch and dinner a number of times, but he paid for that. With all of our obligations we are just barely scrapping by. For many years it would have been nearly impossible for me to work. I was caring for my parents and taking care of our children, our home and our life.... my husband, too. Still, I desired and made time for him, he didn't desire me. You guys keep saying what a soul-crushing thing I did to him. You have no idea how crushed my soul and my spirit were. When you are so low that you begin to contemplate ways not to wake up in the morning without it looking intentional (because THAT would be unbearable for your family) you KNOW that you have to make some changes. I was planning to go back to work last year but had to put that on hold because two of our sons had major surgeries and I had to take them back and forth to physical therapy for months. I have, now, found a job and will start working in July. When you all suggest that my husband clean out our accounts and put me and my things out on the street that is laughable. First of all, after the bills are paid there is nothing left in the account. It takes everything just to pay the bills, feed the family, pay for medication and put food on the table. The bank called this morning and we probably won't be able to keep our house. Since we can barely afford to stay here together, it is unlikely that we can afford to live apart. Since I am the legal guardian of our special needs son and I have no intention of leaving any of my children..... where might I go. Oh, I know..... to my AP. Well, that probably won't happen. BTW, through it all, I never stopped loving my husband, but the in-love part died when I realized that he simply was incapable of loving me that way. He and I have so many years together and there have been so many wonderful times, too. But, if a garden is never watered it whithers and dies. I finally reached a weight that I am comfortable with. My a$$ is still too big, but my face is starting to be a little thin. I'm not perfect, I never will be, but I am comfortable with the way I look. I did become a happier person and apparently that and a smile are quite attractive to lots of people. I'm not going back into the cesspool of misery that we lived in for years. I'm moving forward.... somehow, someway. Should I have cheated?.... NO, but I will leave you with this word picture. A woman is homeless and it's 30 degrees below 0 outside. She has no money and she is freezing. She goes into a store and steals a coat. Is she guilty of stealing? Yes! Another woman lives in a comfortable home and has a closet full of coats. It's July and 90 degrees outside. She has plenty of money and plenty of coats. She sees a coat she likes in a store and she steals it. Is she guilty of stealing? Yes! Do you think that the judge may have more mercy and compassion for one of the woman? Maybe! Maybe not! I was freezing....

You all will see all of this as an excuse. Maybe it is, but I am simply trying to offer an explanation. Every human being has a breaking point. I reached mine. Unfortunately, I hurt my husband and family in the process. At the end of the day, I do love my husband. Am I in love right now? Not like a wife should be. Having some, if not all of my needs met by another was a powerful elixir. I was so vulnerable, so susceptible, my AP was in a similar place at that time in his life. We had a shared history, although it was from many, many years ago. Now, there are a lot of hurting people and we are all trying to move forward. I'm not sure how this will end. I'm not sure why I'm sharing this. I knew that I wouldn't receive support, I wasn't expecting it. But, I was hoping for some genuine unbiased feedback. I couldn't get it here because so many of you all are hurting, too.


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## iheartlife

Empty Inside said:


> I asked, begged, pleaded, demanded over and over, again, that my husband be a partner, a companion, a friend, a lover and not just a roommate and finally threatened my husband with divorce. NOTHING changed. He seemed determined that this was our "lot in life," life was tough, he felt defeated and lacked any and all motivation to make any changes. He seemed content to be miserable and just thought that I should remain miserable, too.


If there is one thing I've learned on this forum--and, ironically, this is the advice given to betrayed spouses, not cheaters (generally)--it's that THREATS of divorce do not work. They just don't.

You just didn't want to be the one to file. That is what it boils down to. There is no justification for cheating if you are too scared to file.

Why didn't you file?


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## Complexity

She mentioned in her earlier threads that it's both financially unfeasible to divorce and they both had commitments to their special needs child.


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## Unsure in Seattle

Empty Inside said:


> You all will see all of this as an excuse. Maybe it is



Yup. 

Let your husband go. Make a divorce as painless as possible. Maybe you will find true happiness with your AP! The odds are pretty long.

OP, let your "wife" go. You deserve better.


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## Zanna

Of course we will see your so called explanation as an excuse because it is an excuse.

You still had choices, regardless of your tale of woe. No one is saying your life wasn't hard. That's NOT the point. A lot of people have hard lives and terrible marriages and they still don't cheat. If you couldn't get a divorce, then why not tell your H that you needed sex and attention and if he couldn't give it to you, you would get it from someone else? Why all the lying and the backstabbing behaviour? Coward perhaps?

You should and could have given him the chance to make choices about his own life with all the facts of his life in front of him. Instead you sneak around behind his back for 18 months. Your husband's pain sounds very real. I doubt he's a cold heartless man and if you had spoken to him about your plans for an affair, then I'm sure it's quite possible it would have "woken" him up. 

As for the majority of us being the betrayed spouses, why yes, many of us are. Does that mean we can't possibly understand why someone would be driven to cheat? After all, we are all feeling very vulnerable in the days following our D-days. Would that not be justification for us to seek comfort and attention elsewhere? Many betrayed spouses do but that doesn't make revenge affairs right either.

And not all cheaters share YOUR sentiments. My H is very remorseful. He said all the excuses and justifications and reasons he used were in a word bullsh!t. Nothing excused his very poor, selfish and immoral decision to have an affair. He hurt himself, he hurt me and he hurt our children and he said none of it was worth the pain he caused. He gets it. You on the other hand, do not.


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## mahike

EI

A lot of words and that is all they are words. You actions speak to who you are.

You will never understand the pain you are causing your husband, 1 because you are not the on who was betrayed and 2 you are selfish.


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## warlock07

Ok, you went through a lot of hardships in your life. You are/were a good woman. And you sacrificed a lot for your family. And you do deserve happiness. Everyone deserves it.

But your argument is something similar to a rapist claiming - "I was sexually abused when I was younger, so that gives me a right to become a rapist". A bad analogy, but the point is two wrongs don't make a right. You still believe that you deserved to cheat and that is what the posters here are taking offense at.

You have a lot of victim complex for things that were not your husband's fault.To be honest, the stresses and responsibilities you had were much worse than what married couples go through. I agree with that. But your parent's health wasn't his fault, the kid's health wasn't his fault and just like you, I assume, he dealt unhealthily with the stresses in his life. And your cheating only made this whole mess worse.

What was your end game with the cheating? What would have happened if your H did not find out? Do it now.

Good luck with the rest of your life


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## iheartlife

Zanna said:


> As for the majority of us being the betrayed spouses, why yes, many of us are. Does that mean we can't possibly understand why someone would be driven to cheat?


That's the part that galls me the most.

Do cheaters really think that betrayed spouses were all whooping it up in the marriage of their wildest dreams? That our needs were being met constantly by spouses who were falling all over themselves to show us love, affection, sex, what have you?

Think again!

It all boils down to how one handles the problems in marriage.

I was the one who BEGGED my husband to tell me why he was so distant. I was SURE there was someone else. Turns out there was--it just took him leaving a secret email account open on our home computer for me to find out. That was a good 4 to 6 months after I first starting begging for answers to his distance.

I didn't choose to cheat, and I never will. At least I can live with that shred of self-dignity, when all is said and done.


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## MattMatt

I think it might have been that B1 was suffering from depression for many years.

And, yes, someone saying: "Notice me! Notice ME!!!" is a great way to cure someone's depression.


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## iheartlife

Complexity said:


> She mentioned in her earlier threads that it's both financially unfeasible to divorce and they both had commitments to their special needs child.


I did gather that the threats were just that, threats and nothing more. Not sure why they even matter to her story, if they were that empty.


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## lordmayhem

Empty Inside said:


> You all are enjoying this way too much, aren't you?


Uhmm...No. This is the club that no one wants to join. We would rather not be here at all. And without going thru that wall of text wherein you rationalize your cheating I'll just get to this one tidbit of yours:



Empty Inside said:


> NO, but I will leave you with this word picture. A woman is homeless and it's 30 degrees below 0 outside. She has no money and she is freezing. She goes into a store and steals a coat. Is she guilty of stealing? Yes! Another woman lives in a comfortable home and has a closet full of coats. It's July and 90 degrees outside. She has plenty of money and plenty of coats. She sees a coat she likes in a store and she steals it. Is she guilty of stealing? Yes! Do you think that the judge may have more mercy and compassion for one of the woman? Maybe! Maybe not! I was freezing....


There are *ALWAYS* alternatives. The freezing homeless woman, instead of stealing, seeks help. She calls 911 or asks someone to call the police and the police come and transport her to the nearest homeless shelter where there is food, warmth, and clothes. I've had to do this personally quite a few times. She won't get more compassion than the woman who has it all because she had legal alternatives besides stealing. 

I noticed throughout your sad story, that you hardly take responsibility for your actions. Did you ever stop to think about your disabled child? What a divorce would do to him? Yet throughout your story of hardship, you still found the strength to hide and have a long term affair with an old flame that you reconnected with after so many years. But I can see why your OM wouldn't want to continue your relationship, as they say nowadays, too much baby mama drama.


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## MattMatt

Zanna said:


> Of course we will see your so called explanation as an excuse because it is an excuse.
> 
> You still had choices, regardless of your tale of woe. No one is saying your life wasn't hard. That's NOT the point. A lot of people have hard lives and terrible marriages and they still don't cheat. If you couldn't get a divorce, then why not tell your H that you needed sex and attention and if he couldn't give it to you, you would get it from someone else? Why all the lying and the backstabbing behaviour? Coward perhaps?
> 
> You should and could have given him the chance to make choices about his own life with all the facts of his life in front of him. Instead you sneak around behind his back for 18 months. Your husband's pain sounds very real. I doubt he's a cold heartless man and if you had spoken to him about your plans for an affair, then I'm sure it's quite possible it would have "woken" him up.
> 
> As for the majority of us being the betrayed spouses, why yes, many of us are. Does that mean we can't possibly understand why someone would be driven to cheat? After all, we are all feeling very vulnerable in the days following our D-days. Would that not be justification for us to seek comfort and attention elsewhere? Many betrayed spouses do but that doesn't make revenge affairs right either.
> 
> And not all cheaters share YOUR sentiments. My H is very remorseful. He said all the excuses and justifications and reasons he used were in a word bullsh!t. Nothing excused his very poor, selfish and immoral decision to have an affair. He hurt himself, he hurt me and he hurt our children and he said none of it was worth the pain he caused. He gets it. You on the other hand, do not.


Unless your husband did something he knew was bad, whilst EI did something she felt she was entitled to?


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## warlock07

> Did you ever stop to think about your disabled child? What a divorce would do to him? Yet throughout your story of hardship, you still found the strength to hide and have a long term affair with an old flame that you reconnected with after so many years. But I can see why your OM wouldn't want to continue your relationship, as they say nowadays, too much baby mama drama.


That is a very strong point. What would have happened in a bitter divorce to the kids?


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## snap

So what all your hardships have to do with OM being a sex god? Am kinda failing to connect the dots here.


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## lordmayhem

warlock07 said:


> That is a very strong point. What would have happened in a bitter divorce to the kids?


She didn't think about how the consequences of her affair would affect the kids. People in an affair NEVER do. The high they get from the emotional connection and the hot sex blinds them to everything else.


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## Zanna

*Quote:
Originally Posted by Empty Inside 
You all are enjoying this way too much, aren't you?*





lordmayhem said:


> Uhmm...No. This is the club that no one wants to join. We would rather not be here at all.


Sadly, her victim mentality applies to the reactions of other betrayed spouses as well.

As if we are enjoying this...


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## snap

I'm glad the husband made it here. I don't care much about her. 

We heard her story here a thousand times before, from people of both genders. Thinking that everyone is focused on her is just another manifestation of her selfishness.


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## MattMatt

lordmayhem said:


> I noticed throughout your sad story, that you hardly take responsibility for your actions. Did you ever stop to think about your disabled child? What a divorce would do to him? Yet throughout your story of hardship, you still found the strength to hide and have a long term affair with an old flame that you reconnected with after so many years. But I can see why your OM wouldn't want to continue your relationship, as they say nowadays, too much baby mama drama.


Oh, I think EI did stop to think about her disabled child. What a great hostage he made! If husband threatened her with divorce for the affair, why, there's the fact that the boy would suffer, so husband would feel too guilty to break the family up.


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## Tall Average Guy

Empty Inside said:


> Should I have cheated?.... NO, but I will leave you with this word picture. A woman is homeless and it's 30 degrees below 0 outside. She has no money and she is freezing. She goes into a store and steals a coat. Is she guilty of stealing? Yes! Another woman lives in a comfortable home and has a closet full of coats. It's July and 90 degrees outside. She has plenty of money and plenty of coats. She sees a coat she likes in a store and she steals it. Is she guilty of stealing? Yes! Do you think that the judge may have more mercy and compassion for one of the woman? Maybe! Maybe not! I was freezing....


You analogy fails because you can still live without the love that you need. Your life was not in danger. You just wanted to take the easy way out.

All the reasons you gave are good ones for a divorce, or even a sit down to tell your husband that you were going to date others. But you could not do that. You ran around behind his back and lost your moral authority.


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## aug

Empty Inside said:


> You all are enjoying this way too much, aren't you? It's very easy to be on the outside..... casting judgement on me, without knowing all of the facts, because many of you are projecting your own pain at having been betrayed onto me. So many of my words in my original posts have been twisted so much that they bear no resemblance to the truth. I never once said that my AP was a "sex God." *I said, "the physical intimacy with my AP was like nothing I have ever experienced. I had no idea that it could really be that way." *Not quite the same as calling him a "sex God." The reason that it was different is because I felt wanted, desired, beautiful. With respect to my husband, I think that even he made it clear that he neglected me in that area. I have been choosing my words carefully because it is NOT my intention to hurt someone that I love and have loved for 31 of my 48 years of life.


You were with him since you were 17 years old?

You said the sex "was nothing I have ever experienced". Not when you were 17? Not when your body was younger and newer? Not when the both of you were in love at that young age?

Well, maybe he needs to find other women to practice before he gets too old. 




Empty Inside said:


> *I have, now, found a job and will start working in July. *
> 
> ...
> 
> Since I am the legal guardian of our special needs son and I have no intention of leaving any of my children..... where might I go. Oh, I know..... to my AP. Well, that probably won't happen. BTW, through it all, *I never stopped loving my husband*, but the in-love part died when I realized that he simply was incapable of loving me that way.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> You all will see all of this as an excuse. Maybe it is, but I am simply trying to offer an explanation. Every human being has a breaking point. I reached mine. Unfortunately, I hurt my husband and family in the process. At the end of the day, I do love my husband. Am I in love right now? Not like a wife should be. Having some, if not all of my needs met by another was a powerful elixir. *I was so vulnerable, so susceptible, my AP was in a similar place at that time in his life. We had a shared history, although it was from many, many years ago. *Now, there are a lot of hurting people and we are all trying to move forward. I'm not sure how this will end. I'm not sure why I'm sharing this. I knew that I wouldn't receive support, I wasn't expecting it. But, I was hoping for some genuine unbiased feedback. I couldn't get it here because so many of you all are hurting, too.



It's great you have found a job. It'll allow you to be more independent.


That love for your husband could not had been there when you spent 1.5 years with your lover, experiencing the physical intimacy like you never had before.


The OM, your lover, was someone you knew many years ago and kept in touch? Hmmm, interesting.


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## EI

Hanna: "If you couldn't get a divorce, then why not tell your H that you needed sex and attention and if he couldn't give it to you, you would get it from someone else?"

If my husband will come back on and address this he will tell you that that is *exactly* what I told him in February of last year. I said that I could no longer live this way and that I was going to have "passion (emotional and physical) with or without him." He said that we could work on it and I said "how?" He said that we would keep doing the same thing as always. I told him that I would no longer pass up an opportunity for love in my life and that as soon as our youngest graduated that I would get a job and move on. This was after a couple of years of trying everything in my power to do the work to bring us together. I desperately hoped that he would take those steps. I really wanted for my husband to wake-up!

Bandit.45: "Believe all of us... the pain you felt over the years due to his neglect would pale in comparison to the pain you would have felt if he had cheated on you first. There is simply no comparison."

You don't know that. Have you been the "neglected spouse?" You CAN'T compare your pain to mine. You aren't me and haven't been in my shoes.

MattMatt, you have asked a couple of times about our children. Our oldest is married and has a home. Two are young adults living at home but working and taking college classes soon to be on their own. Our youngest has one year of high school left and our special needs son is a young adult. He is on a list for assisted living homes for adults with disabilities. In our state the list is long and can take years. He chose to be on the list. He does have, both, physical and mental disabilities but is intelligent and articulate and would like to have an opportunity to have as much independence as possible. Whether living at home or on his own (with assistance) we are still his parents and I would remain his legal guardian overseeing his life, healthcare and finances which are limited to SSI. I've noticed that you have asked a few times so please understand that my husband and I are, both, parents who love our children and are committed to always loving and supporting them. My husband's parent are divorced and have been an example of never letting their differences negatively affect their children's lives. We have spent all holidays with both of them, at the same time, never having to split time between his mother's side of the family and his dad's side of the family.


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## Jibril

warlock07 said:


> That is a very strong point. What would have happened in a bitter divorce to the kids?





lordmayhem said:


> She didn't think about how the consequences of her affair would affect the kids. People in an affair NEVER do. The high they get from the emotional connection and the hot sex blinds them to everything else.


It's arrogance, is what it is. I don't even think it's fog - I get the impression that she believed (and still believes), wholeheartedly, that her husband will _not_ divorce her. She has never had to worry about the consequences for her actions, because there _are_ _no_ consequences for her actions.

The husband, Betrayed1, is desperate to keep the marriage intact, rather than moving on with his life and start a new and healthy relationship with a person who will respect him. The idea of divorce isn't even being _considered_, and so Empty Inside feels entitled to have her affair, confident in the knowledge that her husband will always have a place for her at home.

Betrayed1 is in his own fog, unfortunately. Until he snaps out of it, Empty Inside will sit on her fence, waiting to pick a side.


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## Unsure in Seattle

I also like:



Empty Inside said:


> But, I was hoping for some genuine unbiased feedback. I couldn't get it here because so many of you all are hurting, too.



How dare we all have suffered in our lives so, when Empty Inside wanted to come to this forum for support in her affair, we had no sympathy? Boy, we're a selfish bunch!


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## Unsure in Seattle

Again, simply:

OP, let her go.

Empty, let him go. Break up as easily as possible. Both of you need to go your seperate ways/


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## warlock07

Empty Inside said:


> Hanna: "If you couldn't get a divorce, then why not tell your H that you needed sex and attention and if he couldn't give it to you, you would get it from someone else?"
> 
> If my husband will come back on and address this he will tell you that that is *exactly* what I told him in February of last year. I said that I could no longer live this way and that I was going to have "passion (emotional and physical) with or without him." He said that we could work on it and I said "how?" He said that we would keep doing the same thing as always. I told him that I would no longer pass up an opportunity for love in my life and that as soon as our youngest graduated that I would get a job and move on. This was after a couple of years of trying everything in my power to do the work to bring us together. I desperately hoped that he would take those steps. I really wanted for my husband to wake-up!
> 
> Bandit.45: "Believe all of us... the pain you felt over the years due to his neglect would pale in comparison to the pain you would have felt if he had cheated on you first. There is simply no comparison."
> 
> You don't know that. Have you been the "neglected spouse?" You CAN'T compare your pain to mine. You aren't me and haven't been in my shoes.
> 
> MattMatt, you have asked a couple of times about our children. Our oldest is married and has a home. Two are young adults living at home but working and taking college classes soon to be on their own. Our youngest has one year of high school left and our special needs son is a young adult. He is on a list for assisted living homes for adults with disabilities. In our state the list is long and can take years. He chose to be on the list. He does have, both, physical and mental disabilities but is intelligent and articulate and would like to have an opportunity to have as much independence as possible. Whether living at home or on his own (with assistance) we are still his parents and I would remain his legal guardian overseeing his life, healthcare and finances which are limited to SSI. I've noticed that you have asked a few times so please understand that my husband and I are, both, parents who love our children and are committed to always loving and supporting them. My husband's parent are divorced and have been an example of never letting their differences negatively affect their children's lives. We have spent all holidays with both of them, at the same time, never having to split time between his mother's side of the family and his dad's side of the family.


Then why did you keep up the deception after the first time he found out? Did you have any genuine reasons for that? Or did you just wanted to preserve the status quo? Or you wanted to end the affair but couldn't?


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## aug

Empty Inside said:


> Hanna: "If you couldn't get a divorce, then why not tell your H that you needed sex and attention and if he couldn't give it to you, you would get it from someone else?"
> 
> If my husband will come back on and address this he will tell you that that is *exactly* what I told him in February of last year. I said that I could no longer live this way and that I was going to have "passion (emotional and physical) with or without him." He said that we could work on it and I said "how?" He said that we would keep doing the same thing as always. *I told him that I would no longer pass up an opportunity for love in my life and that as soon as our youngest graduated that I would get a job and move on.* This was after a couple of years of trying everything in my power to do the work to bring us together. I desperately hoped that he would take those steps. I really wanted for my husband to wake-up!



So, you have found love with the OM. You have found a job. Your youngest is graduating soon.

I suppose you're moving on as you said you would.

So, to answer your original question in your thread, give him all the details he wants. Since you are moving on, the question of divorce as the endgame is answered.


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## Zanna

Empty Inside said:


> Hanna: "If you couldn't get a divorce, then why not tell your H that you needed sex and attention and if he couldn't give it to you, you would get it from someone else?"
> 
> If my husband will come back on and address this he will tell you that that is *exactly* what I told him in February of last year. I said that I could no longer live this way and that I was going to have "passion (emotional and physical) with or without him." He said that we could work on it and I said "how?" He said that we would keep doing the same thing as always. I told him that I would no longer pass up an opportunity for love in my life and that as soon as our youngest graduated that I would get a job and move on. This was after a couple of years of trying everything in my power to do the work to bring us together. I desperately hoped that he would take those steps. I really wanted for my husband to wake-up!
> .


But did you wait until your youngest graduated to get a job and move on? No, you had an affair.

Please stop justifying yourself and think of what your poor husband is going through right now. You can't change what you did at this point but stop making this all about YOU. We know you think it's all about you but it's not.

For the love of Pete, you have been with this man for almost 3 decades, show him some compassion and stop playing the victim already.

We get it. You were neglected. You had a horrible, difficult marriage. You gave everything and he gave nothing. Therefore, you were entitled to cheat.


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## EI

*MattMatt*, my disabled son is not my hostage, he is my son. The sacrifices that my husband and I have, both, made for him you will never begin to know.

*Unsure in Seattle*, I clearly DID NOT ask for sympathy. I was hoping for some unbiased feedback. In all honestly, if I am in a fog right now, I'd like to see my way out of it, but I can not truly make any progress unless I am being honest about my true feelings, as they are, right now. Now go ahead and start bashing me about my previous lack of honesty because that is really going to help the situation.

*Aug*, yes I knew him briefly when I was 16. I never said that we had kept in touch. I found him on Facebook last year.

*Jibril*, who said that my husband isn't considering divorce? He and I, both, have appointments with our marriage counselor next week. We have decided NOT to make any decisions until after that time.


----------



## iheartlife

Empty Inside said:


> Bandit.45: "Believe all of us... the pain you felt over the years due to his neglect would pale in comparison to the pain you would have felt if he had cheated on you first. There is simply no comparison."
> 
> You don't know that. Have you been the "neglected spouse?" You CAN'T compare your pain to mine. You aren't me and haven't been in my shoes.


Maybe you missed my post on the previous page. I know I'm not the only one to feel the way I did.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Zanna

Empty Inside said:


> I clearly DID NOT ask for sympathy. I was hoping for some unbiased feedback. In all honestly, if I am in a fog right now, I'd like to see my way out of it, but I can not truly make any progress unless I am being honest about my true feelings, as they are, right now. Now go ahead and start bashing me about my previous lack of honesty because that is really going to help the situation.
> 
> He and I, both, have appointments with or marriage counselor next week. We have decided NOT to make any decisions until after that time.


Yes, you are very foggy.

But perhaps the questions at this point should be:

Are you sorry for the pain you have caused your H by your betrayal?

Are you sorry for cheating on him?

Start there. If the answers to both are no, then for goodness sake, let the poor man go and face the consequences of your actions which means divorce and all that it entails.


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## snap

Zanna, she's not sorry, she's just angry at the fallout. Had she not been caught, she'd be cake-eating until becoming too wrinkled for the OM.


----------



## Zanna

iheartlife said:


> Maybe you missed my post on the previous page. I know I'm not the only one to feel the way I did.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And she missed my post too. Empty Inside, perhaps you should read my story and then you might see that you are not the only neglected spouse on this planet. I too went to my H with my concerns and I was ignored.


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## skip76

Empty Inside said:


> You all are enjoying this way too much, aren't you? It's very easy to be on the outside..... casting judgement on me, without knowing all of the facts, because many of you are projecting your own pain at having been betrayed onto me. So many of my words in my original posts have been twisted so much that they bear no resemblance to the truth. I never once said that my AP was a "sex God." I said, "the physical intimacy with my AP was like nothing I have ever experienced. I had no idea that it could really be that way." Not quite the same as calling him a "sex God." The reason that it was different is because I felt wanted, desired, beautiful. With respect to my husband, I think that even he made it clear that he neglected me in that area. I have been choosing my words carefully because it is NOT my intention to hurt someone that I love and have loved for 31 of my 48 years of life.
> 
> You all have said that I should have gone to counseling, should have scheduled my husband a doctor's appointment, etc..... I have been in counseling for a couple of years, my husband also went to counseling and to a doctor about his issues. I put in a great deal of time, effort and self-evaluation, trying to make the changes that I needed to make for myself and for our marriage.... months, years.... lots of time. I asked, begged, pleaded, demanded over and over, again, that my husband be a partner, a companion, a friend, a lover and not just a roommate and finally threatened my husband with divorce. NOTHING changed. He seemed determined that this was our "lot in life," life was tough, he felt defeated and lacked any and all motivation to make any changes. He seemed content to be miserable and just thought that I should remain miserable, too. I was for a long time, but I couldn't stay that way forever. I didn't want to wake up in the mornings. I really didn't think that it was good for our children to see their parents in such a defeated state. I have been called selfish and far worse on these threads. I was the care-giver for both of my parents for many years throughout lengthy illnesses. I buried, both, my brother and my father within 16 days of one another 8 years ago. My brother was single and that left no one but me to take care of the arrangements and he had left no plans or provisions. My husband and I have raised 5 children, including our special needs son. He has Cerebral-Palsy and is Mentally Retarded due to being extremely pre-mature. He is wheel-chair bound and wears diapers. Now, that he is legally an adult and requires guardianship I am his legal guardian. He lives at home. Was my husband here for me through all of that.... YES, but he couldn't move beyond the heartache, devastation and defeat of the many challenges that life had handed to us. He did go to work everyday and come home for which I was very grateful. But, we didn't talk, go anywhere, do anything, spend any time together. We had no plans, hopes, dreams, or goals. Just despair. I would plan little weekend get-a-ways for the two of us.... it was never easy because making arrangements for our son was almost impossible. I was hoping that by getting away from everything for a little while it would give our marriage some new energy. My husband would reluctantly come along, but even when we were away he wouldn't touch me. This went on for years. Have you ever been so lonely, so empty that you physically ached to be touched. No matter how many times or ways I tried to talk to him about this he always shut me out and shut himself down. I felt that there must be something terribly wrong with me. He suggested that I was shallow for wanting "sex!" Deep down I knew that it was much more than sex that was missing. We weren't connecting emotionally or physically. I wanted a connection. I wanted to feel alive. I began to believe that I was some kind of heinous monster that was so unappealing. I worked really hard to become desirable for him. No matter how much I weighed I was too heavy, too thin, too much cellulite, boobs too big, face too thin.... loosing weight, gaining weight, exercising, tanning (oops, now I was too tan) I was ying-yanging myself all over the place trying to find out what was wrong with me so that I could "fix" myself and be desirable. Should I have gotten a divorce?..... YES! But, it isn't that easy. We still have children at home, they are young adults working and attending local colleges.... one is still in high school, we have a handicapped accessible house and we have financial obligations. I am not living the big life on my husband's hard work. Nor did I spend one dime of our money on my AP. He took me out to lunch and dinner a number of times, but he paid for that. With all of our obligations we are just barely scrapping by. For many years it would have been nearly impossible for me to work. I was caring for my parents and taking care of our children, our home and our life.... my husband, too. Still, I desired and made time for him, he didn't desire me. You guys keep saying what a soul-crushing thing I did to him. You have no idea how crushed my soul and my spirit were. When you are so low that you begin to contemplate ways not to wake up in the morning without it looking intentional (because THAT would be unbearable for your family) you KNOW that you have to make some changes. I was planning to go back to work last year but had to put that on hold because two of our sons had major surgeries and I had to take them back and forth to physical therapy for months. I have, now, found a job and will start working in July. When you all suggest that my husband clean out our accounts and put me and my things out on the street that is laughable. First of all, after the bills are paid there is nothing left in the account. It takes everything just to pay the bills, feed the family, pay for medication and put food on the table. The bank called this morning and we probably won't be able to keep our house. Since we can barely afford to stay here together, it is unlikely that we can afford to live apart. Since I am the legal guardian of our special needs son and I have no intention of leaving any of my children..... where might I go. Oh, I know..... to my AP. Well, that probably won't happen. BTW, through it all, I never stopped loving my husband, but the in-love part died when I realized that he simply was incapable of loving me that way. He and I have so many years together and there have been so many wonderful times, too. But, if a garden is never watered it whithers and dies. I finally reached a weight that I am comfortable with. My a$$ is still too big, but my face is starting to be a little thin. I'm not perfect, I never will be, but I am comfortable with the way I look. I did become a happier person and apparently that and a smile are quite attractive to lots of people. I'm not going back into the cesspool of misery that we lived in for years. I'm moving forward.... somehow, someway. Should I have cheated?.... NO, but I will leave you with this word picture. A woman is homeless and it's 30 degrees below 0 outside. She has no money and she is freezing. She goes into a store and steals a coat. Is she guilty of stealing? Yes! Another woman lives in a comfortable home and has a closet full of coats. It's July and 90 degrees outside. She has plenty of money and plenty of coats. She sees a coat she likes in a store and she steals it. Is she guilty of stealing? Yes! Do you think that the judge may have more mercy and compassion for one of the woman? Maybe! Maybe not! I was freezing....
> 
> You all will see all of this as an excuse. Maybe it is, but I am simply trying to offer an explanation. Every human being has a breaking point. I reached mine. Unfortunately, I hurt my husband and family in the process. At the end of the day, I do love my husband. Am I in love right now? Not like a wife should be. Having some, if not all of my needs met by another was a powerful elixir. I was so vulnerable, so susceptible, my AP was in a similar place at that time in his life. We had a shared history, although it was from many, many years ago. Now, there are a lot of hurting people and we are all trying to move forward. I'm not sure how this will end. I'm not sure why I'm sharing this. I knew that I wouldn't receive support, I wasn't expecting it. But, I was hoping for some genuine unbiased feedback. I couldn't get it here because so many of you all are hurting, too.





Do you realize it is always about you. I believe your husband went through the same stuff you did. All these problems and life issues were his as well. I am sure he had a hard time dealing with everything as well, probably added to his issues that you are describing, now you find out a lot of it was because of a medical issue causing low desire. That issue has been resolved, before he even knew about the cheating, yet you still treat him and speak of him in this manner. This two to three year period will be a changing moment in your life and I do not think you will look back on it kindly. You don't have it now but one day you will have a breakdown of epic proportions do to your bad choices. It will be too late. You took wedding vows and said for better or worse, farsaken all others right. well you had a lot of the worse, and your husband stayed by your side through it all. You did not. When you needed him most, raising this family, providing for you so you could take care of your parents, the kid, etc, he was there. Now when he needs you the most, kids are grown, he's getting old, you cheat and leave.


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## B1

My wife is absolutely refusing to do a NC letter, says it will embarrass here. She thinks it's foolish to send one because they are not contacting each other. This subject actually makes her angry. 
We are awaiting counseling sessions and going from there.


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## lordmayhem

betrayed1 said:


> My wife is absolutely refusing to do a NC letter, says it will embarrass here. She thinks it's foolish to send one because they are not contacting each other. This subject actually makes her angry.
> We are awaiting counseling sessions and going from there.


Refusal to send a NC letter equals refusal to end the affair. The fact that they are not in contact right now is irrelevant. 

Besides, the NC is for remorseful WSs. It's their committment to end the affair permanently and is your line in the sand that any future contact will result in consequences.

She's not remorseful at all for the affair, that much is obvious by her posts here and refusal to send the NC letter. Without true remorse, there is NO HOPE for this marriage. She still feels entitled to the affair and is still blameshifting.


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## Complexity

betrayed1 said:


> My wife is absolutely refusing to do a NC letter, says it will embarrass here. She thinks it's foolish to send one because they are not contacting each other. This subject actually makes her angry.
> We are awaiting counseling sessions and going from there.


Why were you so apathetic when your wife threatened to have an extramarital relationship if you didn't reciprocate affection to her? It's a pretty callous thing to do.


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## lordmayhem

Her refusal shows she loves OM more than you, the marriage, and her children.


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## aug

betrayed1 said:


> My wife is absolutely refusing to do a NC letter, says it will embarrass here. She thinks it's foolish to send one because they are not contacting each other. This subject actually makes her angry.
> We are awaiting counseling sessions and going from there.



Well, it is all about her, isnt it?

Also, she's not ready to end her relationship with him. IF she did send one, she needs to be mentally ready to end her relationship with her lover. She's not ready to see him as an evil compatriot (yet?).


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## lordmayhem

aug said:


> Well, it is all about her, isnt it?
> 
> Also, she's not ready to end her relationship with him. IF she did send one, she needs to be mentally ready to end her relationship with her lover. She's not ready to see him as an evil compatriot (yet?).


:iagree:

She did say that she stopped contact with OM...for now. Absolutely no intention with ending the A with OM permanently.


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## warlock07

Why would it embarrass her? She already embarrassed herself, her H and her family immensely. The only reason I can guess is that she does not want to burn bridges with the OM.

Oh, and she gets angry?


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## lordmayhem

Find out if OM is really divorced, or if he currently has a girlfriend. If he does, expose it to her. She's refusing NC, so the next step is to expose the affair to friends and family.


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## Maricha75

Empty Inside said:


> *MattMatt*, my disabled son is not my hostage, he is my son. The sacrifices that my husband and I have, both, made for him you will never begin to know.


Matt may not be able to know the sacrifices you have both made for your disabled son, but having seen what my mother-in-law has dealt with for my brother-in-law, I have a fairly good idea. And this also came from my husband. My brother-in-law has cerebral palsy. It affects him both physically and mentally. He can never hold a job. He goes to a program all day, Monday thru Friday. He is very high needs. He is wheelchair bound. He needs help with feeding and he needs to wear diapers all day/everyday. My mother-in-law couldn't do it alone. She is disabled herself. She requires aides to help care for her son.

And yet, she was preparing to divorce her husband just before he suddenly died, years before I even met them. Why? Hmmm... Because he was cheating on her! She finally had enough and had an appointment to see a lawyer... but he died. And, her income, as well as the boys' income, was cut drastically. But they managed to live just fine. And, when we lived with them when my husband was working, we helped her out. We stayed home with BIL so she could go out occasionally with a friend. So, yes, I know the sacrifices you have had to make. But guess what? As a parent to ANY child, not just a special needs child, you make sacrifices. It's called PARENTING.




Empty Inside said:


> Bandit.45: "Believe all of us... the pain you felt over the years due to his neglect would pale in comparison to the pain you would have felt if he had cheated on you first. There is simply no comparison."
> 
> You don't know that. Have you been the "neglected spouse?" You CAN'T compare your pain to mine. You aren't me and haven't been in my shoes.


I have been both neglected AND neglectful. NOT ONCE did I EVER give in to the physical temptation. Yes, I had and EA (two, actually), and my husband did as well... But we NEVER took that step to go screw around with anyone. In the end, I knew that I couldn't do that to my husband... NO MATTER HOW I FELT. I knew I would only have sex with another man AFTER a divorce... and I chose to actually WORK on my MARRIAGE, instead of getting fvcked by another man. My husband felt, and still feels, the same way. So, yes, I know how it feels to be neglected. It is *NO FVCKING EXCUSE* to go fvck some other guy!


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## Maricha75

betrayed1 said:


> My wife is absolutely refusing to do a NC letter, says it will embarrass here. She thinks it's foolish to send one because they are not contacting each other. This subject actually makes her angry.
> We are awaiting counseling sessions and going from there.


Sigh.... I vote to let her be embarrassed. She SHOULD be embarrassed for screwing around for a year and a half!


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## warlock07

And for a moment I thought she was genuinely remorseful.


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## LastDance

Empty Inside said:


> [...]
> 
> If my husband will come back on and address this he will tell you that that is *exactly* what I told him in February of last year. I said that I could no longer live this way and that I was going to have "passion (emotional and physical) with or without him." He said that we could work on it and I said "how?" He said that we would keep doing the same thing as always. I told him that I would no longer pass up an opportunity for love in my life and that *as soon as our youngest graduated that I would get a job and move on.* [...]


But you didn't wait hun. Perhaps your husband thought he had time, until your youngest graduated. I don't know. I do know I was also neglected and did everything I could to make things better when I felt my husband emotionally withdrawing. He chose to cheat. 

And yes, I had to deal with a cold aloof husband. When he did have sex with me (and it was just that, no connection, no touching, no tenderness) it was climb on, finish, climb off, and go to sleep. I get how you feel/felt. I still held onto the hope things could be fixed. I too begged, cried, threatened, changed, all the things you did too (except cheat that is). I too was a SAHM. 

I was busy working on my marriage and "fixing" myself. He was not in love any more and moved on, while also keeping a firm hold on me so I didn't have the option to do the same. 
It wasn't love that you found, it was some really great sex. Sex isn't love, although some feel it has made them fall in-love.


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## morituri

As others have pointed out, your refusal for NC with the OM for fear of hurting his feelings speaks volumes as to you reluctance to work to salvage the marriage. For this reason, as well as lack of remorse and the now for the for certain inability of your husband to meet your needs is the reason why we have advised your husband to divorce you.


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## LastDance

betrayed1 said:


> [...]
> am I an idiot for wanting to work it out, is it possible, can I trust again, when will my imagination stop running wild?
> 
> Thanks for anyone who gives there inupt, good or bad, your time is appreciate.



Hello betrayed1. I am sorry you find yourself here, a member of a club you didn't want to be in any more than I did. I really wish I had clear definative answers for you, but like everything in life no two situations are exactly the same. 

I can tell you this though until or unless your wife pony's up and tells you everything you need to know your mind will be your worst enemy. It will fill in the blanks she doesn't. It will become pure hell and worse. It's a limbo without end or hope. She has the means to get you out but sounds like she is hoping not to have to put herself though the pain or embarrassment. 

Now I know she says it is painful for her as well. I believe her. The difference is she chose this for you both. No one asked if you wanted to play this game. I'm sorry. I truly am. It hurts and it sucks. 

Your mind will continue to torture you until you say enough. You have to help yourself now. You will need to distance yourself from her emotionally and I suggest physically as well. I know she is not working and if it helps you then by all means help her find a place and maybe even pay a month or two rent. But you need to heal. I know you love her, but she chose this. Not you. And with her holding information or giving it in bits and pieces is cruel. Coming her asking how much detail to give is just a stalling technice. How much information?? As much as you need to move on in life and make an informed choice.


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## river rat

Betrayed1, I'm sorry you find yourself here. It really is a lost feeling, isn't it? It's been many years since I was where you are, but I still remember that pain. It nearly drove me to suicide. But I'm still here, and a lot more healthy emotionally than I was 10 yrs ago. I didn't really want to know details. I figured the knowing of the act was enough to make my decisions. My wife was remorseful and has put forth the kind of effort needed to salvage our marriage. I don't see your wife doing this. Until and unless she can do that, I don't see your marriage surviving. You may want to give it a little time to see if she comes to that realization. How much time depends on how long you can take this.


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## lordmayhem

betrayed1 said:


> We are awaiting counseling sessions and going from there.


Marriage Counselling (MC) is generally useless while one spouse is still in an affair. She will have no problem lying to the counsellor's face. Also, if the MC starts talking only about her problems and not about the affair itself, then the MC will only end up validating her feelings about the affair and will just end up doing more damage. If the MC does this, immediately fire him/her and find another one who is experienced in dealing with infidelity.


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## iheartlife

river rat said:


> Betrayed1, My wife was remorseful and has put forth the kind of effort needed to salvage our marriage. I don't see your wife doing this. Until and unless she can do that, I don't see your marriage surviving.


Ditto, ditto, ditto


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## gpa

So EI your husband worked for so many years having to bring home food for seven people. I can't imagine how many hours had to work every day. Can y tell us?
Have y ever asked him if he had the powers and the ability to face your continyous demands for desire, sex, intimacy etc. It seems that this was and is your ultimate problem.
Can y imagine the amount of stress y put on him. If y loved your husband and y was such a caring, loving and perfect wife why y didn't find that actually his inability was actually due to medical reasons? After all he had five children with y, isn't he?
Have y ever faced his problems with real interest or love? From your sayings i doubt so. It seems your only problem and excuse is the need for sex. And the well known excuse of "feeling attractive and desired". Really in your age (mine too)? 
After so many years of marriage y think that every husband or wife must present the same amount of desire to his/her spouse like the first years of any marriage? Is this the expectation of a mature person?
And what about your other man? Your sexual God as y described him to all of us. Y found on him what - except sexual festivals?
Honesty?
Morals?
Character?
Dedication?
Commitment?
If y allow me to point, he is a man who is cheating also on his family, b***s a married women of five children, "facing" his problems. You also stated that he cares about y and loooves y so much but in the same time he clearly told y that he is not going to leave his family for y. Is this love for y. Is he the one who is your God with such a behavior? Do y really know what is love?
I can imagine your husband working endless hours a day, been physically exhausted, facing all the family problems, with tight finances and five children to feed and bring them to adult life. That is a proof of love my dear in my mind. Your husband is a man not your OM if you want my oppinion and my 1 drachma (very soon) oppinion.


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## iheartlife

Complexity said:


> Why were you so apathetic when your wife threatened to have an extramarital relationship if you didn't reciprocate affection to her? It's a pretty callous thing to do.


Complexity, I totally appreciate your asking this question, and I hope the OP answers it.

But it does sort of beg the question, why does she want to reconcile now? What is the point, if he is such an awful husband? 

That I don't get. (Sorry if I haven't kept up with both threads as I should.) 

Am I missing something?


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## iheartlife

lordmayhem said:


> Marriage Counselling (MC) is generally useless while one spouse is still in an affair. She will have no problem lying to the counsellor's face. Also, if the MC starts talking only about her problems and not about the affair itself, then the MC will only end up validating her feelings about the affair and will just end up doing more damage. If the MC does this, immediately fire him/her and find another one who is experienced in dealing with infidelity.


This is what happened to us--what a waste of money and time.

Fortunately I did more research and have found a very good counselor, who is educated about how infidelity (and emotional affairs) function.


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## Fvstringpicker

I started on your wife's thread playing the devil's advocate. I use it as a form of oppositional discussion with my students and is just part of my nature. At any rate, it's been interesting. If I were defending her in court, I'd seek a change in venue. Some here see adultery as the ultimate sin. I don't. It's bad and it hurts a lot of people and it's my guess that is why God has a commandment (not a suggestion) against it. But I've worked in the court system and I can tell you there are worse things spouses can do to each other. You can get over adultery, but you can't get over a spinal injury or being set on fire or watching your baby being killed. And this stuff happens everywhere.
But lets go to your situation. I have to agree with most folks that you and her should divorce. It really appears the marriage is over. Not because of the affair. It was a result of what happened long before the event happened. 
I can see from your post that you love her. The sad thing is that it doesn't matter how you feel about her. It doesn’t matter what she says about what happened. The only important point is how she feels about you and it appears that she doesn't want to be with you. It looks like you’re out . And none of this really has anything to do with her boyfriend. She didn’t turn suddenly to him and look at him as a replacement. She was thinking about getting her needs met for a while; long before he came along. And she was telling you all along what was going to happen. She wasn't ambivalent at all about what she wanted in a marriage. By you own admission, you’re the one who wasn't listening and was self absorbed . Do you want to know why she didn't just come out and tell you she couldn't give the man up when you discovered it the first time. Because women don’t do that. At the moment, maybe they believe they can or don't want to think they don't have the willpower, but she was in over her head.

To partially address your concern that he's gave her the best loving she's had, I've slept with more than my share of women. My wife is the best loving I've had and its not because she has any magic. Women, like men have basically the same plumbing. Its the emotional connection we have. Its when your souls intertwine. That connection makes it the best; not any technique, not any size, position, movement, or tightness. The problem with you and your wife is the connection is not there so the loving is lacking. She's not your soul mate and you're not hers. Testosterone injection or lotion may help, but it always going to be lacking. When you find it you will know what I talking about. Good luck and God Bless.


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## Maricha75

bandit.45 said:


> The Circle of Dumbassedness just turns, and turns and turns.....


Sounds like a bad soap opera.... my dad actually came up with something like that. "As the Stomach Churns"..and really, this whole thing does make my stomach churn....leaves a bad taste in my mouth, too.


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## Chaparral

lordmayhem said:


> :iagree:
> 
> *Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?* She was a sex toy for the OM. He doesn't actually want the baggage of being with her. Then he'd have to support her and her lifestyle since she doesn't work. OM is more than content to let you foot the bills while he bangs your wife.
> 
> Don't believe for a second that the OM feels bad that she's married and that's why he's cooled it down for now. Its only because she got caught.


Your wife is extremely naive. AR's odds 1 in 1000 are the odds the OM ever wanted anything more than to poke your wife. Her picture on his mantle, well I'll give him one thing, he is smooth.


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## Acabado

The irony... your wife degrade herself for a year and a a half, date openly another man while putting the facade at home, become a professional lier to everybody, dismiss any value she onece held, get dumped by the POS who was boinking her untill there was a chance to become aviable and now is ''embarrased'' to send a standard NC letter.

Up is down, left is right...


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## morituri

Your wife is going to find out that sex without love can get old pretty fast. For every man out there wanting to share his life with her, there are 1,000 or more men just wanting to use her body for sex - a piece of a$$. How many women would love to be in that situation? My guess is not many at all.


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## Chaparral

Do the both of you really want to stay married? Is this a matter of negotiating the terms of staying married for you both? What are your reasons for staying married?

I understand you both love each other. The way you both have emptied your love bank is total and sad. Who hurt who the most is moot at this point. Can you both commit to marriage? And can you both get over what both of you have done to each other?

The discussion about who is the most at fault here has gone overboard.


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## iheartlife

chapparal said:


> Do the both of you really want to stay married? Is this a matter of negotiating the terms of staying married for you both? What are your reasons for staying married?
> 
> I understand you both love each other. The way you both have emptied your love bank is total and sad. Who hurt who the most is moot at this point. Can you both commit to marriage? And can you both get over what both of you have done to each other?
> 
> The discussion about who is the most at fault here has gone overboard.


I said it already, it is rather mystifying. She was essentially caught and trickle truthed like a champ to the bitter end. She will not let go of the idea that she was justified in having an affair because he was a terrible husband, so I have yet to see much of an explanation based in love for her desire to R. There is evidence to suggest that she is asking for R because the OM won't commit. She won't give a letter of NC to the OM because "it would crush him." Apparently there is mention that a divorce can't be afforded financially. And in the midst of all of this is a disabled child. It is a tragedy, no doubt about it

(sorry if my summary is wrong, those are two pretty long threads)


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## morituri

Why can the two of them hire a divorce mediator and have him/her file an uncontested divorce where none of the marital assets gets liquidated until the death of one or one of them remarries and/or moves away with his/her lover/spouse. This way it is the marriage license that gets disolved while mitigating as much as possible the financial impact of the divorce down to a minimum. They both can continue to share the family home, take care of their kids, and have their own independent lives separate from each other. It won't be easy but it seems better than the situation they find themselves in at the moment.


----------



## Complexity

iheartlife said:


> Complexity, I totally appreciate your asking this question, and I hope the OP answers it.
> 
> But it does sort of beg the question, why does she want to reconcile now? What is the point, if he is such an awful husband?
> 
> That I don't get. (Sorry if I haven't kept up with both threads as I should.)
> 
> Am I missing something?


I think that's her entire problem, her husband's neglect over the years has caused her to slowly check out of the marriage. While she admits the affair is in no way justifiable and is sorry for the hurt she's caused, she's finding it difficult to express remorse because she isn't _in love_ with her husband anymore. There's alot of resentment there.


Her proactive attempts to lose weight to look pretty for her husband, her pleas over the years for him to show her affection and the non contact sex. This wasn't an overnight thing. She repeatedly warned him and he remained bizarrely nonchalant. 

EmptyInside reminds me of workingtogether in a lot of ways. She found it difficult to express remorse because her feelings for her Husband simply weren't there anymore. To be honest the more I read, the less sympathy I have for the husband unless he can actually come and explain his actions.

She perhaps wants to see if there's anything salvageable seeing as she invested 27 years of her life into this marriage.

_"I didn't choose to stop loving him.... my love just withered and died. But, because of my love for our children, our special needs son, our financial situation, a house that is upside down that we will probably never be able to sell, the fact that I have been a stay-at-home mom for 20 years and would likely have a very hard time finding employment that I could actually support myself with, a divorce seems to be a bit unrealistic_."


----------



## morituri

Maybe I'm wrong but it wouldn't surprise me that when they were both younger, she was the LD spouse while he was the HD spouse. And as it happens in many marriages, when they both grew older, her libido went through the roof while his tanked.


----------



## iheartlife

Complexity said:


> I think that's her entire problem, her husband's neglect over the years has caused her to slowly check out of the marriage. While she admits the affair is in no way justifiable and is sorry for the hurt she's caused, she's finding it difficult to express remorse because she isn't _in love_ with her husband anymore. There's alot of resentment there.
> 
> Her proactive attempts to lose weight to look pretty for her husband, her pleas over the years for him to show her affection and the non contact sex. This wasn't an overnight thing. She repeatedly warned him and he remained bizarrely nonchalant.
> 
> EmptyInside reminds me of workingtogether in a lot of ways. She found it difficult to express remorse because her feelings for her Husband simply weren't there anymore. To be honest the more I read, the less sympathy I have for the husband unless he can actually come and explain his actions.


You know, if _he_ was begging _her_ to reconcile as she ran off with the OM into the sunset, then maybe I could see that. We'd be telling him to Let Her Go. Here we have the bizarre situation of the 'awful' husband being put on the spot to try and trust his trickle-truthing wife who is more likely than not still very much in love with the OM.

It's a round peg that isn't fitting into the square hole.


----------



## Complexity

iheartlife said:


> You know, if _he_ was begging _her_ to reconcile as she ran off with the OM into the sunset, then maybe I could see that. We'd be telling him to Let Her Go. Here we have the bizarre situation of the 'awful' husband being put on the spot to try and trust his trickle-truthing wife who is more likely than not still very much in love with the OM.
> 
> It's a round peg that isn't fitting into the square hole.


I think she sums it up here


_The truth is, even if I am never with my AP again, I don't feel the type of desire for my husband that I used to.... that I need to be able to have a real marriage. I was so in love with my husband, I really was. I put him on a pedestal so high that his lack of desire for me left me feeling terribly deficient. Although he is a very good man, he often tried to make me feel ashamed for expressing my needs. He would say things like, "It's only sex, is it really that important?" His response to my saying that I was starving was that 'he wasn't hungry.' He mastered the art of touch-less lovemaking. We could go for months at a time without any sexual contact and then, when we did have sex, it was just 5 minutes, in the missionary position, on/off.... the end. No kissing, no touching, no foreplay. I never had orgasms with him and he even tried to imply that I was somehow "broken._


----------



## iheartlife

Complexity said:


> I think she sums it up here
> 
> 
> _The truth is, even if I am never with my AP again, I don't feel the type of desire for my husband that I used to.... that I need to be able to have a real marriage. I was so in love with my husband, I really was. I put him on a pedestal so high that his lack of desire for me left me feeling terribly deficient. Although he is a very good man, he often tried to make me feel ashamed for expressing my needs. He would say things like, "It's only sex, is it really that important?" His response to my saying that I was starving was that 'he wasn't hungry.' He mastered the art of touch-less lovemaking. We could go for months at a time without any sexual contact and then, when we did have sex, it was just 5 minutes, in the missionary position, on/off.... the end. No kissing, no touching, no foreplay. I never had orgasms with him and he even tried to imply that I was somehow "broken._



This is why she wants to R?


----------



## Complexity

iheartlife said:


> This is why she wants to R?


I don't think she came here looking to reconcile, she wants to know if it's even possible to reconcile at this stage. 

"_I wish that I could forget about my AP, be madly in love with my husband and that my family could live happily ever after, but that's a fairy tale and we all know that fairy tales are not real_."


----------



## Vanguard

Complexity said:


> I think that's her entire problem, her husband's neglect over the years has caused her to slowly check out of the marriage. While she admits the affair is in no way justifiable and is sorry for the hurt she's caused, she's finding it difficult to express remorse because she isn't _in love_ with her husband anymore. There's alot of resentment there.
> 
> 
> Her proactive attempts to lose weight to look pretty for her husband, her pleas over the years for him to show her affection and the non contact sex. This wasn't an overnight thing. She repeatedly warned him and he remained bizarrely nonchalant.
> 
> EmptyInside reminds me of workingtogether in a lot of ways. She found it difficult to express remorse because her feelings for her Husband simply weren't there anymore. To be honest the more I read, the less sympathy I have for the husband unless he can actually come and explain his actions.
> 
> She perhaps wants to see if there's anything salvageable seeing as she invested 27 years of her life into this marriage.
> 
> _"I didn't choose to stop loving him.... my love just withered and died. But, because of my love for our children, our special needs son, our financial situation, a house that is upside down that we will probably never be able to sell, the fact that I have been a stay-at-home mom for 20 years and would likely have a very hard time finding employment that I could actually support myself with, a divorce seems to be a bit unrealistic_."


Love doesn't wither and die until you let it. Your ability to love is determined by your own personal being, not someone else's.


----------



## Complexity

WhiteMousse said:


> Love doesn't wither and die until you let it. Your ability to love is determined by your own personal being, not someone else's.


So essentially no actions by a secondary party determines the vitality of love? Maybe you should look in the divorce section in this forum......


----------



## Vanguard

Complexity said:


> So essentially no actions by a secondary party determines the vitality of love? Maybe you should look in the divorce section in this forum......


I doubt I would find anything that would change my stance on this. If we are going to dive into a school of thought on the assumption that my faithfulness or capacity to love depends on the actions of the other person, every marriage is doomed. 

In every single successful marriage, there are numerous points where one was being woefully inadequate, and the other continued to love despite inadequacies.


----------



## Complexity

WhiteMousse said:


> If we are going to dive into a school of thought on the assumption that my faithfulness or capacity to love depends on the actions of the other person, every marriage is doomed.


This is a red herring argument.



> In every single successful marriage, there are numerous points where one was being woefully inadequate, and the other continued to love despite inadequacies.


Really? logic would dictate the opposite, case in point; emptyinside and her husband. But seeing as "nothing will change your stance", you're entitled to it.


----------



## oregonmom

Empty Inside said:


> Bandit.45: "Believe all of us... the pain you felt over the years due to his neglect would pale in comparison to the pain you would have felt if he had cheated on you first. There is simply no comparison."
> 
> You don't know that. Have you been the "neglected spouse?" You CAN'T compare your pain to mine. You aren't me and haven't been in my shoes.


I'm sorry, I have to chime in here.

EI, I dare you, DARE YOU, to live through the sh!t my WH put me through BEFORE his affair. I have read everything you wrote. If you were justified to have an affair, I was justified to have 20. "Neglected spouse" doesn't even BEGIN to describe it. So I've been in both shoes, and guess which hurt more? MY H'S AFFAIR!! 

Stop throwing your freaking pity party for yourself and take some freaking responsibility for your actions!!! 

:rant:


----------



## Vanguard

Complexity said:


> This is a red herring argument.
> 
> 
> 
> Really? logic would dictate the opposite, case in point; emptyinside and her husband. But seeing as "nothing will change your stance", you're entitled to it.


I feel that logic shows I'm right. One was being woefully inadequate at some point, but the other spouse (in this case, the wife) did not continue to love. Because of that dynamic, the marriage has fallen apart. 

I guess we just don't see eye to eye.


----------



## Complexity

WhiteMousse said:


> Actually logic shows that I'm right. One was being woefully inadequate at some point, but the other spouse (in this case, the wife) did not continue to love.


erm

"In every single successful marriage, there are numerous points where one was being woefully inadequate,_and the other continued to love despite inadequacies_".


----------



## Vanguard

Complexity said:


> erm
> 
> "In every single successful marriage, there are numerous points where one was being woefully inadequate,_and the other continued to love despite inadequacies_".


Yeah. In a successful marriage. But I think this couple is an example of an unsuccessful marriage. So if they didn't follow the rule of a successful marriage and their marriage was unsuccessful, I think it shows that what I stressed earlier is sound.


----------



## Complexity

WhiteMousse said:


> Yeah. In a successful marriage. But I think this couple is an example of an unsuccessful marriage. So if they didn't follow the rule of a successful marriage and their marriage was unsuccessful, I think it shows that what I stressed earlier is sound.


I think you completely copped out here. 

First you assert that love doesn't die unless one personally allows it to, then you propose that in every successful marriage a spouse remains in love with other even though one may be woefully inadequate. I then challenge the logic of this argument with evidence of the OP, then you completely contradict yourself and concede the dynamic of your argument leads to an unsuccessful marriage, finally you suppose their marriage isn't "successful" because they didn't follow a rule which you yourself found to be contradictory......


----------



## betamale

There's something wrong with this thread. BS maybe, maybe not.


----------



## Vanguard

Complexity said:


> I think you completely copped out here.
> 
> First you assert that love doesn't die unless one personally allows it to, then you propose that in every successful marriage a spouse remains in love with other even though one may be woefully inadequate. I then challenge the logic of this argument with evidence of the OP, then you completely contradict yourself and concede the dynamic of your argument leads to an unsuccessful marriage, finally you suppose their marriage isn't "successful" because they didn't follow a rule which you yourself found to be contradictory......


No. I'm saying that the _failure_ to adhere to the rule contributed to the downfall of the marriage. I didn't contradict myself. The evidence you gave to challenge doesn't work because the example you gave is not an example of a successful marriage. I don't know how much plainer I can make it. Nowhere did I concede that the dynamic of my argument leads to an unsuccessful marriage. Please read what I wrote again.


----------



## Complexity

WhiteMousse said:


> No. I'm saying that the _failure_ to adhere to the rule contributed to the downfall of the marriage. I didn't contradict myself. The evidence you gave to challenge doesn't work because the example you gave is not an example of a successful marriage. I don't know how much plainer I can make it. Nowhere did I concede that the dynamic of my argument leads to an unsuccessful marriage. Please read what I wrote again.


Sigh, I should taken your advice earlier that nothing will change your mind even when _you _end up contradicting your own arguments.

This is pointless anyway.

Sorry OP for the threadjack.


----------



## Vanguard

Complexity said:


> Sigh, I should taken your advice earlier that nothing will change your mind even when _you _end up contradicting your own arguments.
> 
> This is pointless anyway.
> 
> Sorry OP for the threadjack.


I'm not contradicting myself. This is what I said.

1) Your ability to love is determined by your own personal being, not someone else's. Meaning that if I one day decide that I no longer love my spouse, it is because of me, not her. 

2) In every marriage, there are points in time when one spouse is failing in their duties as a spouse. The difference between a marriage that survives and a marriage that doesn't is whether or not the other spouse chooses to continue to love. If the spouse decides "Well they're not fulfilling their duties to me, I don't need to fulfill mine either", the marriage is destined to fail, by virtue of the fact that both spouses are human, and will make mistakes from time to time. 

3) These two people are a prime example of what I have just detailed. One spouse (the husband) was neglecting the other (the wife). Rather than continuing to love, the wronged spouse (the wife) interpreted the neglect as validation for wrongdoing of her own. 

There is no contradiction. There is nothing difficult to understand about this. You can disagree with it, but you can't say it's not logical.


----------



## Fvstringpicker

oregonmom said:


> I'm sorry, I have to chime in here.
> 
> Stop throwing your freaking pity party for yourself and take some freaking responsibility for your actions!!!
> 
> :rant:


If you read her post it looks like she's describing how she got there. I don't think she's justifying it. It sounds like she's pleading guilty to the affair, but stating what she believe may be mitigating circumstances. 
I believe her case is different in a milder sense, than a woman with a good home, and loving and adoring husband who decides, "hey, I think I'll sleep with my hot new neighbor next time hubby's out of town." I just don't believe that "one size fits all" when judging the penalty inflicted for this offense.


----------



## MattMatt

chapparal said:


> Your wife is extremely naive. AR's odds 1 in 1000 are the odds the OM ever wanted anything more than to poke your wife. Her picture on his mantle, well I'll give him one thing, he is smooth.


Her picture on his mantle. A few minutes before she arrives?


----------



## MattMatt

EI looked for the OM. Before Facebook, all she could do was think about the OM, dream of how it might have been and wonder.

Now with the advent of Facebook there's no more "What if?" There's now: "Let's make it happen!" old flames can be rekindled! Old loves re-lived!

Is it possible that EI sort of checked out of their marriage very early on? That, subconsciously, even, she dreamt of the OM throughout her entire marriage?

That it became clear to B1 that she was thinking of the OM, even whilst he and EI were together?

If it were to become clear that your spouse really was not fully committed to you and was thinking of someone else, might that not make someone feel cold or distant toward them?


----------



## oregonmom

Fvstringpicker said:


> If you read her post it looks like she's describing how she got there. I don't think she's justifying it. It sounds like she's pleading guilty to the affair, but stating what she believe may be mitigating circumstances.
> I believe her case is different in a milder sense, than a woman with a good home, and loving and adoring husband who decides, "hey, I think I'll sleep with my hot new neighbor next time hubby's out of town." I just don't believe that "one size fits all" when judging the penalty inflicted for this offense.


I get that, some people have horrible marriages. I was responding to the specific quote that being a neglicted spouse is worse than being cheated on. Been there, done both, cheating is worse. That was a pity party, justification statement. Everytime the BS hears something like this, it wipes out a million good things the WS said. If she wants any chance of R, she's got to cut that stuff out now.


----------



## Chaparral

This thread has gone off the rails. The two antagonists are going to MC, I assume to see if they can stay married. That is the question. Help them out with that. 

I would suggest IC for both, sex counseling for both since husband has only two moves(on and off). MC for both. If the husband can get over his lifestyle that he has fell into and wife can love the new man he has become there is hope for this 27 yr marriage.

Both can endlessly point their finger at the other. Offer up some ideas, books financial advice etc., and quit what has beome a total thread jack since the first page.

In other words help some people in need by doing a good deed. Forget what you think they need and give them what they think they need.


----------



## t_hopper_2012

Empty Inside,

Reading all of this, one thing comes to mind: "Actions Speak Louder Than Words".

I get that you were in a bad place. Your marriage was not fulfilling. Your family responsibilities were crushing you. You felt like you wanted to die.

What did you do? You took action. (This is a good thing.) You improved your physical condition. You went to counseling and worked on your emotional state. You took action to make yourself healthier and you got results.

Now, after working on yourself, you saw much more clearly what was lacking in your marriage. How did you approach it at first? With words and words only. (You told your husband that you were going to look for passion outside the marriage. Added onto the years of you telling him what was lacking, did you really think this would be effective?).

When you finally did take action, you chose a course that was absolute poison to your marriage. It may have been good for you, but it really sucked for your husband and family. Why, I wonder, didn't you choose a different course of action?

Why didn't you do something like this: move out of the house or kick your husband out of the house? You could have told him that he has 3 months (or 6 or whatever) to get his sh*t together and give you what he needs or you're going to make this separation permanent and divorce him. Then, you make it stick. You could have kept him cut out of your life and shown him what life without you is like. It would have been harsh, it would have been difficult - but it would also have been honest and true. You should have waited to find passion with another man until this had run its course. Following this path would have given the two of you a chance to come back to a marriage that was not poisoned by your 18 month affair.

Now, you're probably thinking, "No, that would not have been possible because of X, Y or Z." I say "baloney". You could have and should have found a way. Move him into the basement. Pitch a tent in the backyard. Borrow a friend's camper for a month. Sure, the neighbors might have talked - but "f" the neighbors. This was your marriage you were trying to save.

So, back to "Actions Speak Louder Than Words." You chose a course of action that was all about you. Me. Me. Me. Me. "I need love and passion, I am going to get it - no matter what the cost."

I was going to ask whether or not you've decided to try and stay and work on the marriage. I don't need to. Your actions already have given me the answer.


----------



## Chaparral

Since you are in financial difficulties, seek out help from local agenices. I know in KY there are many sources of help from the state and churches, there may also be others. I know counseling can be expensive and the burdens on your family are many. 

OP this is obviously your last chance, don't let inertia and laziness be your undoing any longer.


----------



## Almostrecovered

you are an optimist chap, I'll give you that


personally I think giving CPR to a corpse is a waste of energy

and to add to the debate- I have no doubts that hubby contributed much to the demise of the marriage and maybe the marriage couldn't have even been saved prior to the affair. But to me, the long term affair basically destroyed almost every chance.


----------



## iheartlife

chapparal said:


> This thread has gone off the rails. The two antagonists are going to MC, I assume to see if they can stay married. That is the question. Help them out with that.
> 
> I would suggest IC for both, sex counseling for both since husband has only two moves(on and off). MC for both. If the husband can get over his lifestyle that he has fell into and wife can love the new man he has become there is hope for this 27 yr marriage.
> 
> Both can endlessly point their finger at the other. Offer up some ideas, books financial advice etc., and quit what has beome a total thread jack since the first page.
> 
> In other words help some people in need by doing a good deed. Forget what you think they need and give them what they think they need.


chap, you know I am very pro-R. And I will support your point and position.

Here is some book advice, from Surviving an Affair by Dr. Harley 
Surviving an Affair - Willard F. Harley, Jr., Willard F. Harley, Jennifer Harley Chalmers - Google Books



> *How to Tell a Lover that the Relationship is Over*
> 
> How can I explain to OM that I will never see her again? WS asked. The answer to that question is an extremely important part of the plan to separate. WS needed to end the relationship in a way that would make their separation complete. And she also needed to do it in a way that would be least offensive to BS.
> 
> But WS's instincts would not have led her to the correct procedure. If left to her own devices, she would have taken OM on a Caribbean cruise to say their final good-byes. At the very least, she would have wanted to take him to a secluded spot and discuss the pros and cons of their future together. From WS's perspective, she would want to let him down gently, and end the relationship with care and concern for his future. After all, she had encouraged him to love her, and now she felt she had no right to abandon him with no warning. Besides, she wasn't just in love with him, she cared about him, too. He was her best friend.
> 
> The approach WS would have used to end the relationship not only would have been very offensive to BS, but probaly would have failed. I've witnessed these "final" good-byes and there's nothing final about them. All they do is leave the wayward spouse and the lover even more convinced that they belong with each other.
> 
> From BS's perspective (and mine), OM was the worst enemy of WS's and BS's marriage. He stood in the way of their happiness and the happiness of their children. BS did not want WS to "let OM down gently."
> 
> I recommended to WS that she write OM the final good-bye in a letter....


and as regular readers of this forum know too well, the letter is to be written in the format we discuss all the time on the forum.



The NC letter seems to be a big sticking point in moving on. Maybe in some situations we could gloss over the format or conveniently ignore that one wasn't sent. This does not appear to be one of those times.

As our wise MC has said, No Contact letters provide ending rituals. We can see how extremely resistant the WS in this situation is to sending the letter. One can only ask why--but we all know the answer.


----------



## Fvstringpicker

Like iheart, I'm pro-R if, and only if, it can work. But I'm not for saving a marriage just for the sake of saving the marriage. I said in her thread that these two have lost interest in each other; apparently he did long before she did. Ya'll don buy into her, "he ignored me", I don't buy into his, "I had low "T" and other crap weighing me down" At my age I have low T and stuff weighing me down, but my old lady comes first. They simply don't love each other. What they had during the honeymoon period ain't ever coming back. We've been married 17 years, still in the honeymoon period and don't have to "work on" our marriage. Periods of lows, of course. but they are ephemeral with 99% highs. 
Some of ya'll keep hammering on the wife about how she should have got a divorce, took the high road and been loyal despite his neglect etc., She didn't do that. From my own experience, when a spouse has done everything thing they know to do the revive a marriage, (counseling, getting in shape, correcting every deficiency the can, and on and on but to no avail, the next step is going to be drastic. Like me, she went out to prove she wasn't an undesirable slug. While some may throw in the towel and seek a divorce, she, like a monkey, didn't want to let go of one limb before she had a firm grip on another. In both threads, the women pretty much owned up to what she did, in surprising detail, and how she feels about the OM, and her husband. (yet her husband wants more information. He needs to be careful what he wishes for). 
I asked, on her thread how many folks believe they should stay married (and miserable in my opinion) so I'll ask it here. Is it in the best interest of these two to stay married?


----------



## B1

Complexity said:


> I think that's her entire problem, her husband's neglect over the years has caused her to slowly check out of the marriage. While she admits the affair is in no way justifiable and is sorry for the hurt she's caused, she's finding it difficult to express remorse because she isn't _in love_ with her husband anymore. There's alot of resentment there.
> 
> 
> Her proactive attempts to lose weight to look pretty for her husband, her pleas over the years for him to show her affection and the non contact sex. This wasn't an overnight thing. She repeatedly warned him and he remained bizarrely nonchalant.
> 
> EmptyInside reminds me of workingtogether in a lot of ways. She found it difficult to express remorse because her feelings for her Husband simply weren't there anymore. To be honest the more I read, the less sympathy I have for the husband unless he can actually come and explain his actions.
> 
> She perhaps wants to see if there's anything salvageable seeing as she invested 27 years of her life into this marriage.
> 
> _"I didn't choose to stop loving him.... my love just withered and died. But, because of my love for our children, our special needs son, our financial situation, a house that is upside down that we will probably never be able to sell, the fact that I have been a stay-at-home mom for 20 years and would likely have a very hard time finding employment that I could actually support myself with, a divorce seems to be a bit unrealistic_."



Complexity,

For whatever reason, testosterone injections, beating depression etc.. I woke up. It was literally like I had had bad vision and I got new glasses and I could see clearly now. This was prior to discovering this last affair and learning it lasted 15mo. I realized, "I love her" and "I wanted her". But she was cold and distant, as you can imagine. I knew something was wrong. So, I start snooping and discovered this. So in many ways it's like to little to late. I know that. She is in love with another man and I had a big part in pushing her into that. I take that blame, my fault. But the affair she has to take ownership of, it was her choice, she should have divorced me then found someone else, not during. 

I have not been able to work now for days, the pain is sometimes just unbearable, I am in love with my wife after putting her through hell. Now I am going through hell. I am actually glad someone saw through all our posts and read between the lines and summed it up like you did.

We are seeing counselors next week and are going from there. However, I don't know how long I can stick around while she pines for another man. 
How long do I wait for her to maybe come around? Yes, I know she waited for me to come around for years so should I just do the same? I don't think I can. I am alive now, I want love, happiness, to be touched and held, to give love and hold also. I am now capable of doing this...but, is it just to late to share this with my wife? Can she come around, can she love me again? Do I wait for her love or just move one...


----------



## Shaggy

You should realize that she is very deeply in the affair fog.

I don't think she is actually in love with the OM. Oh, she thinks she is, but it's affair babble she's spewing. She has NOT shared her life and days with him. All she has done is share a bed and a lie. 

If she actually stays away from him the affair fog will clear. They problem is will she break NC? Oh, she's said she won't, but she also said she'd stay faithful too didn't she.


----------



## iheartlife

The reason you are struggling so is because you caught her. She didn't end it and come to you. She also dribbled out the truth--or rather, you had to peel it back like layers of an onion. It was a 3 month EA; no, it was dinner and lunch; no, it restarted in July; no it had been continuing until you figured it out.

To her credit, she admitted herself it was a PA and has given you a lot of detail. But because of the delay in learning these shocking things, you are on DD#4 or more now (meaning, you've gone through a horrible revelation of truth that has violently shaken your understanding of what is reality). You are numb with shock. Your inability to concentrate is due to a physical state of hyper-vigilance. This is your body's way of protecting you from extreme danger; it sends adrenaline to your body to run. You also are probably experiencing symptoms of post traumatic stress because you discovered an affair last year. It was horrible but you got through it. Now the feelings you had then, the memories, all of that comes back but this time it's 10x worse.

I was the loyal spouse who did not treat my husband as I should have. I'm here to tell you that you are absolutely right. It's possible to take credit for the vulnerability in the marriage--in my case I'll own up to 80%--without taking an ounce of blame for the affair. That's because we live in 2012 and there truly are options. Anyone who says differently is simply acknowledging that human beings make poor choices at times. It doesn't justify what she has done.

I suggest you read this link that AlmostRecovered has created and added to over time. Look in particular at the information showing true remorse. Do you see her meeting most of those criteria? Or any? So far I have not seen much evidence of this in her posts.
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/32002-welcome-tam-cwi-newbies-please-read.html

You started out your thread by indicating she won't send a No Contact letter. In my post above I provided the exact pages to the book, Surviving an Affair, which describes better than anyone can why this letter is important. There might be some exceptions but you will probably agree when you read my post (and the book pages linked in the post) that this is not one of them. I would not attempt to R until she agrees to hand-write the letter in your terms and you deliver it. That would be the starting point for showing true remorse and any point to pursuing R.


----------



## Almostrecovered

betrayed,

I think you realize this but I'll say it anyways-

your wife had an exit affair

I think you found out about the affair maybe anywhere from 1 week to 6 months of her just up and leaving for OM. (as it seems OM was starting to make demands)

That's an incredibly difficult point to come back from 

and yes while it is your wife's fault that she cheated, the crappy marriage prior to the cheating does make a difference on to whether or not your wife will make the steps necessary to help you heal from the infidelity and then be able to work on the resentment of the poor treatment you gave her. Hell, she can't even take step 2 which is write a NC letter.

It's like triage, the infidelity needs to be addressed first, you can make yourself the best husband in the world and it won't have a lick of an effect if she isn't working on rebuilding trust, stops the affair, shows remorse and is transparent.


----------



## Almostrecovered

also, see your doctor for std testing and perhaps some anti-anxiety or anti-depressant meds for a short period of time, you need to take care of your health


----------



## Complexity

betrayed1 said:


> Complexity,
> 
> For whatever reason, testosterone injections, beating depression etc.. I woke up. It was literally like I had had bad vision and I got new glasses and I could see clearly now. This was prior to discovering this last affair and learning it lasted 15mo. I realized, "I love her" and "I wanted her". But she was cold and distant, as you can imagine. I knew something was wrong. So, I start snooping and discovered this. So in many ways it's like to little to late. I know that. She is in love with another man and I had a big part in pushing her into that. I take that blame, my fault. But the affair she has to take ownership of, it was her choice, she should have divorced me then found someone else, not during.
> 
> I have not been able to work now for days, the pain is sometimes just unbearable, I am in love with my wife after putting her through hell. Now I am going through hell. I am actually glad someone saw through all our posts and read between the lines and summed it up like you did.
> 
> We are seeing counselors next week and are going from there. However, I don't know how long I can stick around while she pines for another man.
> How long do I wait for her to maybe come around? Yes, I know she waited for me to come around for years so should I just do the same? I don't think I can. I am alive now, I want love, happiness, to be touched and held, to give love and hold also. I am now capable of doing this...but, is it just to late to share this with my wife? Can she come around, can she love me again? Do I wait for her love or just move one...


I can't advise you whether or not to divorce your wife, you spent nearly 3 decades with her and until recently she's been a perfect partner. You know her worth to you.

You should both see what the counsellors tell you and most importantly you can't be impatient with wanting her to do a 180 and return to be slavishly in love with you again. So long as the OM is out of the picture, you can decide to either fight for your wife and get her to see the new you or you can divorce and find a compatible partner.


----------



## cabin fever

This one is really messed up. 

E.I. No matter how you spin at the end of the day you screwed someone else, for 16months. Shame on you for that, and Shame on you for trying to "justify" it. While I do have some (a tiny bit) of understanding for you, What you did is wrong on so many levels. You completely crushed your husbands soul. 

You seem to want everyone to know how miserable you were, and how many responsiblities you have (especially with your disabled son, which I am sorry you have to deal with BTW) My question is, How do you think you AP is going to act with all that going on? Do you honestly think he is going to want to put up with all your responsiblities? PHUCK NO! My guess is he listened to you vent about it, then got his piece of ass, and you went home? 

Face it. You don't love your husband, but you're scared to leave. Yet you sit here and talk about how miserable you are. Here is your chance to set yourself, and your husband free. Do not use the $$$ thing as an excuse to stay married. There is never a good time to get divorced. It sucks, and no one wants to go through it. Just don't be under the fantasy that your A.P. is going to come to your rescue after your divorced. And remember there are lots of other people who's fiances are way worse then your's that have gotten divorced. 

You will most likely live a lonely life despartely seeking attention from anyone who you "smile " at. My guess is when that happens, you will find someone else (besides your husband) to blame for your miserable self pity. 

To the original poster, 
DUDE, WAKE THE PHUCK UP! Your wife doesn't respect you, and hasn't for some time now. She refuses to end contact with her piece of ass. She blames you for pretty much 99% of her problems. Yet she respects that you went to work and came home every day. Grow a set (or take em back from her) man the F up, and find someone that will treat you like a human being, not a phuckin door mat. 

Its pretty obvious what you 2 both need to do. Pretty sure you both know it too, but are probaly to scared to live independent of each other. 

or continue the life you have lived for the past 10 years.


----------



## snap

Someone said that self-pity is a manifestation of narcissism and hence looks so repulsive to outsiders, there must be some truth to that.


----------



## morituri

EI,

While I have no sympathy for your AP (affair partner), I cannot help but marvel on how selfish and cruel you are to want another man to fall in love with, when you are not willing to end your marriage to be with him. It seems that what you offer as love is worth absolutely nothing.


----------



## Fvstringpicker

B, I hate to keep harping on this, but I said above I we can see that you claim to love her and woke up. But like I said, it doesn't matter how you feel about her. Its how she feels about you and and the same thing goes for her. Folks on here call it a fog implying it has a temporary nature. Maybe so. But ya'll don't sound like you're on the same page.
An alternative that hasn't been mentioned to my knowledge is to get a divorce, wait a spell, try to date again. That, in sense would wipe the slate clean. Right now my observation is like the ole saying, "if you love something set it free, if it returns to you its yours, if not, it was never yours in the first place"


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## kenmoore14217

Women are only honest with men who they feel won't leave them. However, when a woman says: If I tell my husband the truth he will leave me, then she clams up!! Instinctive self preservation.


----------



## EI

*Complexity*, thank you for giving me a little bit of unbiased understanding when I know that it isn't very popular to do so.

*Fvstringpicker*, thank you, too, for playing the "Devil's Advocate" on my behalf, although in the beginning, after you shared a bit of your own story, I knew that that was probably not going to help me here in these threads. But, thanks anyway! 

I have to say that I wasn't ever the perfect wife. I, too, had lengthy periods of depression and feelings of being defeated. I checked out of life for a while after the deaths of my brother and father, both, unexpectedly in 2004 within 16 days of one another. I took care of the "basics" but I let myself go in many ways. I slept a lot, ate a lot and it wasn't very pretty. Although, the lack of any meaningful emotional/physical connection from my husband had already begun a few years before. He and I were both pretty beat up with life. I knew that I couldn't continue living this way and I slowly began to pick myself up and put my life back together. I encouraged my husband to do the same. I tried to help and encourage him as I helped myself. I know that change has to come from within, it is a choice that each one must make for themselves, but as a spouse we have to try to lift one another up. I did try for a very, very long time. I worked really hard on myself so that I could offer the "best possible me" to him. I remember going into my therapist's office about three years ago and saying that I wanted to have an affair "with my husband!" There have been so many accusations, insults and hurtful things said on these threads about both of us. Many of them are completely inaccurate, but I can see that any attempt to defend myself simply results in more of the same. I want to make it clear that I do not hate my husband as someone suggested. But, if I am being honest, he is a man who I once held in the highest of respect and that eventually began to change for me long before my A began. Of course, now, I understand that it is me who is not worthy of his respect. He and I do not hate one another in any way. There is a great deal of love and history that we share together. No one on these thread gets to decide whether our marriage is worth saving except for the two of us. What you all can not see is that while I am sitting here in the kitchen on the PC and he is sitting in the bedroom on his computer that we often stop, take a few moments, and talk, hug, share our feelings and hopes and express our regret to one another for each of our parts in us being in the place where we are now. Sometimes, we even ask the other for help in formulating a response or finding the right words to respond to all of you. At times we hug and kiss and acknowledge that we will probably be arguing and discussing a divorce within the hour..... and yet we continue on. We have decided to wait until Monday which is the first counseling session since I have given him all of the details of my A. Fv said something on my thread which I had already told my husband. He said that some here would like to see me slit my own throat. I had already told my husband that I felt as though many of you would like to participate in a public stoning. Interestingly enough, he does not share that sentiment. Nor do I enjoy when people make remarks that he is Putz, lousy in the sack, etc.... He is my husband, the father of our children (whom we both love with all of our hearts) the grandfather of our first grandchild, a precious baby boy born last year. He is the man who gave my father CPR when he collapsed at my kitchen table one week after we buried my brother. He held my hand while I delivered our babies. But, as I have already shared, there were other issues in our marriage and they went from bad to worse. Just as I began trying to get closer to him and began to pull away with a vengeance. I guess he simply wasn't ready. I am an emotional, touchy-feely, person. He responds to stress by withdrawing and turning inward. So, the more I tried to reach out to him the more distant he became. I need people and relationships and he seems to prefer solitude. 

In answer to someone's question about whether my A ever stopped. Yes it did, and my H and I decided to R and I was hopeful. There were a few weeks when we went through some motions, but nothing really changed at all. We sunk back into our separate lives. Once again, I chose the wrong path. We told our kids last summer that we would divorce as soon as it was financially an option. Then, we quit talking about it and went on with business as usual. We basically lived very separate lives and didn't discuss R or D anymore after that. I guess we were in limbo. I have been trying to get a job, which I now have and will start in a few weeks. Still, making that actual split seems so unbearable for me. I see the faces of my kids, and although they are grown, it still haunts me. I see the changes in my H and I go from being hopeful to being resentful that they didn't come sooner. Now, I am just rambling on and on. I did develop extreme feelings of attachment to my AP. Is is love? I think so. It was far more than just a sexual relationship for both of us. There were many times when we were together and we didn't have sex. But I don't think that it is necessary to go into every detail here. We shared the good details, the bad details and the mundane details of our lives. We consoled one another about all of life's ups and downs. We encouraged each other, we argued about things, we worried about one another and we comforted one another. So, because I am a human being and I cannot just turn my emotions on and off like a water faucet, I am struggling with my heart and my mind right now.

But, my H and I both need to function. He needs to work and study, and I need to cook, clean, do laundry, pay bills, go to the grocery and take my son to get an X-ray. So please, people, remember that my H and I both came to this site for a reason. I knew I wouldn't get a pass. I'm not asking for one. I am grateful for any encouragement that any of you might offer my H. But cruel words meant only to tear either of our already broken spirits down really isn't helping anyone. We aren't words on a screen. We are human beings with real feelings. Please choose your words kindly. Having a H & W on here, at the same time, working through something like this is probably not an average day on TAM. Maybe we can all learn something but not with such ugliness being spewed. Thanks!


----------



## EI

Fvstringpicker said:


> B, I hate to keep harping on this, but I said above I we can see that you claim to love her and woke up. But like I said, it doesn't matter how you feel about her. Its how she feels about you and and the same thing goes for her. Folks on here call it a fog implying it has a temporary nature. Maybe so. But ya'll don't sound like you're on the same page.
> An alternative that hasn't been mentioned to my knowledge is to get a divorce, wait a spell, try to date again. That, in sense would wipe the slate clean. Right now my observation is like the ole saying, "if you love something set it free, if it returns to you its yours, if not, it was never yours in the first place"


How interesting! My husband's parents did, in fact, divorce and remarry one another. They have since divorced and she is married to a wonderful man. But, she and my F-I-L remain the best of friends.


----------



## EI

morituri said:


> EI,
> 
> While I have no sympathy for your AP (affair partner), I cannot help but marvel on how selfish and cruel you are to want another man to fall in love with, when you are not willing to end your marriage to be with him. It seems that what you offer as love is worth absolutely nothing.


Very good point! While my AP did not encourage me to end my marriage, he did ask me to wait until I had made my decisions (this was in the very beginning of our A) before I asked for anything from him. He begged me not to pursue him, he did not want to be any part of this, but I was the persistent one and when hearts and feelings get involved sometimes they override logic.


----------



## EI

bandit.45 said:


> E.I.,
> 
> You can't just walk blind into a board like TAM and expect totally helpful comments. I'm a straight talker. I look at what is presented and I make conclusions. Sometimes my observations are rough and brutal, but they are also well thought out.
> 
> If my conclusions don't fit your image of yourself or your husband, then that is your burden, not mine.


Agreed!


----------



## aug

bandit.45 said:


> And I know you are patting yourself on the back for your honesty, but *every time you talk glowingly about what your AP means to you*, you kill your husband a little more.



She's not ready to see herself or her AP as the problem. Dont know if she ever will.


----------



## lordmayhem

aug said:


> She's not ready to see herself or her AP as the problem. Dont know if she ever will.


Either that or she's trolling.


----------



## Shaggy

Empty Inside said:


> Very good point! While my AP did not encourage me to end my marriage, he did ask me to wait until I had made my decisions (this was in the very beginning of our A) before I asked for anything from him. He begged me not to pursue him, he did not want to be any part of this, but I was the persistent one and when hearts and feelings get involved sometimes they override logic.


What you do not realize is that is a very typical game OM do to the cheating wives they hook up with. It's a final test and draw of the WW. They say, if you want it, YOU must come to me. 

They do this because if they pushed for the WW to jump into bed, the WW might realize that the goal of the OM is to get in her pants. So instead he dies a fake pull back, claims to be honorable, and reels you in.

It's just like the other crap OM pull about wantiing to be your friend and listen to your marriage problems, and to try and help you with your husband.

If you ask them if they want in your pants, they redirect it or even say no.

But it is all a lie.

Your problem is you have convinced yourself that OM is such a great guy and has do much honest care for you, that he couldn't be like that. Wake up, he is exactly like that. Read the other stories about cheating wives and their OM and you see this emerge as a very common story.

Your busy putting OM on a pedestal , while in reality he is a typical POS who saw an emotionally troubled woman, with kids and a family, and he jumped into an affair with her that may very well end her family. 

Ask your self is your actual life better now than before you cheated? Are your mornings brighter, do you feel more confident about the future? Are the people you love better off and happy?

Your precious OM is central to their pain. He is central to your being here. If he never entered your life you would be happier. Your husband was obviously depressed and tired from the trials of life, BUT also suffering because for years you had left him emotionally while you dealt with it all too.

The you found a way out of your depression, but you didn't give him time to get out of his. He didn't leave you when you had left him. But you took the unilateral action to leave him to his depression while you hooked up with a guy who is so low in value and morals that he doesn't have a real marriage or real relationship of his own, and he is willing to have as his relationship a woman who goes back to her husbands bed every night.

Think about that. Your POSOM wasn't wanted by anyone else. He was alone, and he is so pathetic that he accepted for 16 months being the OM for a married woman. He didn't have a real partner who could be there with him or fully commit to him. For 16 months he put up with this. Accepting that while he could have sex with you, and could eat occasionally, he didn't actually have a real partner.

How pathetic and how much of a looser in life must a grown man be to accept those terms?

The OM isn't a catch. He is a moralless pathetic half man who doesn't have the self esteem or integrity to only accept being with a woman who honestly commits to him. He was willing to accept the cast off time your husband and family didn't use.

Look st him and see the truth.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## aug

Shaggy said:


> What you do not realize is that is a very typical game OM do to the cheating wives they hook up with. It's a final test and draw of the WW. They say, if you want it, YOU must come to me.
> 
> *They do this because if they pushed for the WW to jump into bed, the WW might realize that the goal of the OM is to get in her pants. So instead he dies a fake pull back, claims to be honorable, and reels you in.
> *
> It's just like the other crap OM pull about wantiing to be your friend and listen to your marriage problems, and to try and help you with your husband.
> 
> If you ask them if they want in your pants, they redirect it or even say no.
> 
> But it is all a lie.


Didnt worked for me when I was younger. I suppose it's because when I wasnt interested, I really wasnt interested.


But, I guess I need to perfect this technique. Practice, practice. I need to practice. Could be useful one day for me.


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## lordmayhem

The affair fantasy rarely if ever involves the kids. And this OM doesn't want the baggage of 5 kids, including a mentally disabled one. 

Isn't that right Empty Inside? You got him snowed for now, with the hugging and kissing because he's still in the shock and denial stage. That will change when he reaches the anger stage.


----------



## Fvstringpicker

bandit.45 said:


> but every time you talk glowingly about what your AP means to you, you kill your husband a little more.


Bear in mind that her husband is the one who wanted the whole story in detail. Virtually everyone here told her to tell him everything in explicit detail to, I believe was implied, help alleviate the mind movies. ( how that works would have to be explained to me) Both her husband and many on this site opened that door. Now she's being beat over the head with it. Tell me, should should she withhold this information to avoid the pain it causes her husband or unload it in graphic detail like he wants and like and many of you recommend? And it goes back to the central question she asked in the first place; how much detail. It sound too much like we're making up the rules as we go along.


----------



## snap

Fvstringpicker said:


> Virtually everyone here told her to tell him everything in explicit detail to, I believe was implied, help alleviate the mind movies. ( how that works would have to be explained to me)


The more you know the details, the less is left to imagination. Your mind can finally settle on one scenario and process it.


----------



## LastDance

Fvstringpicker said:


> I asked, on her thread how many folks believe they should stay married (and miserable in my opinion) so I'll ask it here. Is it in the best interest of these two to stay married?


*How may I ask is that of any help? Two people came here for help and advise to SAVE the marriage. I do not recall seeing either spouse asking us to vote on whether their marriage was worth saving. *


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Fvstringpicker said:


> Bear in mind that her husband is the one who wanted the whole story in detail. Virtually everyone here told her to tell him everything in explicit detail to, I believe was implied, help alleviate the mind movies. ( how that works would have to be explained to me) Both her husband and many on this site opened that door. Now she's being beat over the head with it. Tell me, should should she withhold this information to avoid the pain it causes her husband or unload it in graphic detail like he wants and like and many of you recommend? And it goes back to the central question she asked in the first place; how much detail. It sound too much like we're making up the rules as we go along.


Seems to me there is a difference between giving details in response to his questions and extolling in excrutiating detail the AP virtues in contrast to the failings of the BS. I think one can do the former without the latter.


----------



## Fvstringpicker

Snap, I can see where you're coming from. But like many movies, there are alternate endings. I seems like a persons mind would tend to drill down on the details and try to examine multiple possibilities and scenarios.


----------



## Acabado

It' so sad your wife has worked up her rationlization machine so deep into this fantasy, blatantly scapist double life. Believing herself such a succubus who seduced the noble AP, blind to the usual tricks of every man who wants to bed the depressed, troubled, low selfsteem married woman, so willing to buy the lies in orden to not blow the fantasy bubble, so willing to believe OM's words againts his actions, against the mere facts... so cliche.
It's so obvious that something who cares for your will never let you betray your values, become a lier, backstabber, to put a risk every possible real support... such a friend.
She claims they shared life strugles, the more frequent bonding affair behavior, written in bassicaly every book... almost every thread on every forum. What she can't understand is sharing the life struggles, bashing their marriages and demonizing their betrayed ones is, beyond the fact that is follwing the usual wayward script, is not the same that actually living together the real struggles. No way OM could stand the mundane things, the bills, the special needs of someone else children... Deep down she knows but sticking to the star crossed lovers fantasy is so appaling...


----------



## betamale

Empty Inside has posted 13 times and her husband just 5 times. This is weird. They're like those people in facebook that write "I'm so sad", so everybody post comments on their wall while they watch and smile.


----------



## aug

I'm so sad about that.


----------



## lordmayhem

betrayed1 said:


> I knew there was a 3mo affair last year in *Feb through April *and *we dealt with that last year*. I thought there was NC since. Boy was I wrong.
> I found out a few weeks ago they were talking again (via phone records again)and she said that they started talking again a few months ago and that was it. Then she admitted to dinner and lunch a few times...again we dealt with it, she established NC and has been NC since. I have FB passwords, phone records, she has opened everything up to me.
> 
> She posted on here about her situation and got blasted, and got angry but overall it helped her.
> Now, as of yesterday, she has confessed that the affair really picked back up in July last year and lasted until a few weeks ago. This was a emotional and very sexual affair, they were pretty much dating, going out to dinner,lunch etc. he has her picture on his mantel!


Even after the affair was outed last year, she continued the affair. She just laid low for a couple of months. That speaks volumes. 

And that's what's she's doing again. She's unremorseful and unrepentant. She won't stop. Once a cheater, always a cheater is true with her.


----------



## morituri

You cannot be in a healthy relationship without being emotionally healthy yourself. I hope that the two of you continue counseling because you both have individual issues that need to be addressed and resolved. The two of you are not emotionally healthy to be with each other let alone with others.


----------



## Fvstringpicker

Tall Average Guy said:


> Seems to me there is a difference between giving details in response to his questions and extolling in excrutiating detail the AP virtues in contrast to the failings of the BS. I think one can do the former without the latter.


Here's a sampling of some of the recommendations from her thread:

_I think your husband wants to find out how much of your lover has now been engrained into you. He'll need the info so that he can decide for himself his future.

This includes your comments about not loving him in the right way anymore. He needs to know all the facts so he can make an informed decision about what he does with his life

I truly believe that you should just be honest. You no longer feel love for your husband, you don't want to be in your marriage, and you no longer have desire for him, so instead of stringing him along, tell him._

So, what should she tell him and what sould she leave out?


----------



## EI

betamale said:


> Empty Inside has posted 13 times and her husband just 5 times. This is weird. They're like those people in facebook that write "I'm so sad", so everybody post comments on their wall while they watch and smile.



I guess the only thing more pathetic than the people like me who post such things so everyone can comment are people like you who do.... huh? This is only intended for those of you who have nothing useful or helpful to say but who simply want to throw stones, question why we're here and why we're posting and, yet, you cannot stop yourself from staring at the train wreck!


----------



## Fvstringpicker

LastDance said:


> * I do not recall seeing either spouse asking us to vote on whether their marriage was worth saving. *


He asked:

"am I an idiot for wanting to work it out, is it possible?"


----------



## hookares

Empty Inside said:


> I guess the only thing more pathetic than the people like me who post such things so everyone can comment are people like you who do.... huh? This is only intended for those of you who have nothing useful or helpful to say but who simply want to throw stones, question why we're here and why we're posting and, yet, you cannot stop yourself from staring at the train wreck!


Should you have given you "DH" the true story in regards to your attraction toward your OP's sexual prowess? Only if you are interested in giving him a choice in making an INFORMED decision regarding any future your relationship may have.
My reason for stating this is that my ex gave me all the details and let me know that I had zero chance of competing with the guys she had been with and continued to be with after serving me.
Of course once the deal was done, she was soon cheating on her Mr. Big with a different guy and now, two years later she's on the street after these guys helped her lose everything she "deservedly" received in the divorce.
Only now does she come around to tell me she "made a mistake" and that I'm not as bad to be with as she previously thought.
Cheating seems to be a tough game to play and even she got caught in spite of it being for twenty years without disclosure.


----------



## B1

betamale said:


> Empty Inside has posted 13 times and her husband just 5 times. This is weird. They're like those people in facebook that write "I'm so sad", so everybody post comments on their wall while they watch and smile.


Why only 5 posts.....

I am still numb, I can actually say I feel physically numb a lot of the day, I'm in shock, in a stupor and unsure of what to do and frankly to mentally exhausted and drained to participate in much of this, it's overwhelming. However, It is helping me through many of my emotions, which are all over the place. I am sad, then angry, I want a divorce now, then I want to R, then I want to talk, I ask for details like what did she do with her wedding ring while they were together, Did they have sex in the car, on the table, did they kiss in public, my mind is driving me insane with images and wondering.

I am not smiling, I am reading though and gleaning a lot of good information. Many people have truly helped me on here and I have gotten some great links to read. My wife is not in the remorse stage yet, she's just not and she's being honest about that...not that it helps me any but she is being honest. Does it pi$$ me off, you bet..do I get angry and want to yell you bet, but I am keeping a calm head and not allowing myself to loose it. I did loose it when I found out this last time, I almost broke my hand hitting my desk and screaming "what's his name" my rage was scary to even me and out of character. 

I can wait until counseling but I don't have high hopes it's going to fix anything quickly or give me this great advice on what I am to do. If I follow my heart it's to reconcile one minute and divorce the next so I can't make a truly informed decision just yet.


----------



## betamale

Sorry for the bad analogy. I thought I saw a pattern.


----------



## lordmayhem

Too many think MC is the magic bullet that will solve everything, it's not. MC is useless while one partner is in an affair, which your wife is, regardless if she hasn't contacted OM lately. She refuses the NC letter, so therefore the affair is still on in her mind. MC aren't the same either, there are bad ones and there are good ones that are well versed with infidelity. A bad MC will actually just make things worse, so fire him/her if they don't address the infidelity. 

I'm off to work now...


----------



## aug

betrayed1 said:


> Why only 5 posts.....
> 
> I am still numb, I can actually say I feel physically numb a lot of the day, I'm in shock, in a stupor and unsure of what to do and frankly to mentally exhausted and drained to participate in much of this, it's overwhelming. However, It is helping me through many of my emotions, which are all over the place. I am sad, then angry, I want a divorce now, then I want to R, then I want to talk, I ask for details like what did she do with her wedding ring while they were together, Did they have sex in the car, on the table, did they kiss in public, my mind is driving me insane with images and wondering.
> 
> I am not smiling, I am reading though and gleaning a lot of good information. Many people have truly helped me on here and I have gotten some great links to read. My wife is not in the remorse stage yet, she's just not and she's being honest about that...not that it helps me any but she is being honest. Does it pi$$ me off, you bet..do I get angry and want to yell you bet, but I am keeping a calm head and not allowing myself to loose it. I did loose it when I found out this last time, I almost broke my hand hitting my desk and screaming "what's his name" my rage was scary to even me and out of character.
> 
> I can wait until counseling but I don't have high hopes it's going to fix anything quickly or give me this great advice on what I am to do. If I follow my heart it's to reconcile one minute and divorce the next so I can't make a truly informed decision just yet.



Read up on the stages of grief (or in your case, loss of your marriage). That's what you're going through.

Kübler-Ross model - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Five Stages of Grief - Elisabeth Kübler-Ross & David Kessler | Grief.com ~ David Kessler
The 5 Stages of Loss and Grief | Psych Central


Note that each stage you undergo are not clearly defined. And there will be overlapping of stages.

There's no set time limit for each stage. Each person experience it on their own timeline.


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## B1

bandit.45 said:


> MC is useless at this stage. She is still in entitlement mode.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I would love to hear from those that have reconciled, how soon did the cheating spouse come around, if they did at all, acknowledge what they did, feel remorseful etc. Was it immediately after being discovered or was there a week or two or more until they came around and took full ownership of what they had done. I have yet to find anything about this.
what's the norm here?


----------



## aug

betrayed1 said:


> I would love to hear from those that have reconciled, how soon did the cheating spouse come around, if they did at all, acknowledge what they did, feel remorseful etc. Was it immediately after being discovered or was there a week or two or more until they came around and took full ownership of what they had done. I have yet to find anything about this.
> what's the norm here?



She's a repeat offender. Too early for you to think about reconciliation without any remorse on her part. Didnt you tried that after the first discovey? How well did that worked out?


----------



## warlock07

I wish I could see EmptyInside's rationalization for lying and continuing the affair after being busted once. No one can help her if she lies to herself.


----------



## cabin fever

betrayed1 said:


> I would love to hear from those that have reconciled, how soon did the cheating spouse come around, if they did at all, acknowledge what they did, feel remorseful etc. Was it immediately after being discovered or was there a week or two or more until they came around and took full ownership of what they had done. I have yet to find anything about this.
> what's the norm here?


Dday for me was 9/26/11

We didn't decide to R untill beginning of December. That entire time she was still seeing OM off and on, and I was on my way to divorcing her. 

Things didn;t change untill I showed her I was done with her, moving on with my life without her, and she was truly going to get divorced. 

Cost me a few hundred dollars, but i got most of my retainer back from my attorney. Might be the best $$ I ever spent. I guess I won't know for awhile. So far My W has shown ture remorse, and done all the heavy lifting. To my knowledge there has been no contact. I have been looking, and if I find other wise she knows she will come home, and find her chit in the street.


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## Maricha75

betrayed1 said:


> I would love to hear from those that have reconciled, how soon did the cheating spouse come around, if they did at all, acknowledge what they did, feel remorseful etc. Was it immediately after being discovered or was there a week or two or more until they came around and took full ownership of what they had done. I have yet to find anything about this.
> what's the norm here?


Regardless of the length of time for R... there are things that NEED to be done first. EI NEEDS to write a NC letter to OM. It doesn't matter if she gets embarrassed. It doesn't matter if it would crush the SOB. It NEEDS to be done in order for her to prove to you that she WANTS to R. That is something that should be non-negotiable, PERIOD. 

I never had to deal with the fall out of a PA. My husband and I 'only' dealt with EAs...even in those instances, NC had to be established in order to prove to each other that we wanted to WORK on the MARRIAGE.

NC with OM, first and foremost. Until then, no dice. By not sending a NC letter, she is keeping him on the side, but making a show of trying to R. Until that letter is sent to OM, don't even think of trying to work on R.


----------



## Fvstringpicker

Empty Inside said:


> *Fvstringpicker*, thank you, too, for playing the "Devil's Advocate" on my behalf, although in the beginning, after you shared a bit of your own story, I knew that that was probably not going to help me here in these threads. But, thanks anyway!


I knew your were going to face an inquisition so I figured I may as well let it be known that I was where you are and my reaction to it makes you look like a piker. Once I got on a roll, one woman could make me stop and I married her. I'm done with that lifestyle. As they say, it was the best of times and the worst of times. Was it worth it? I don't know. But I found my soul mate and will pass from this earth knowing I did. If I'd made other choices and took a different road, I may have never found her. Knowing that, I wouldn't change a thing. I'm sure the above will go over like a lead balloon, but I will account for my mistakes before God, and I have a lot to account for; hopefully he will have forgiven me. Whether people do, I'm too old and to well off to really give a damn. I post here to share my experience and knowledge. Take it for what its worth and I know that often, it ain't worth much.


----------



## snap

Fvstringpicker said:


> Snap, I can see where you're coming from. But like many movies, there are alternate endings. I seems like a persons mind would tend to drill down on the details and try to examine multiple possibilities and scenarios.


Yes, that's exactly why one may want to know everything to excruciating detail. Just so that there's no wiggle room. Not saying for everyone, but this was true for me.

This is why when the wayward's story is filled with inconsistencies, blanks and amnesiac gaps it's so infuriating. You not only feel being fed the BS again, but get this vibe that your spouse is intentionally hurting you.


----------



## aug

Fvstringpicker said:


> I knew your were going to face an inquisition so I figured I may as well let it be known that I was where you are and my reaction to it makes you look like a piker. Once I got on a roll, one woman could make me stop and I married her. I'm done with that lifestyle. As they say, it was the best of times and the worst of times. Was it worth it? I don't know. But I found my soul mate and will pass from this earth knowing I did. If I'd made other choices and took a different road, I may have never found her. Knowing that, I wouldn't change a thing. I'm sure the above will go over like a lead balloon, but I will account for my mistakes before God, and I have a lot to account for; hopefully he will have forgiven me. Whether people do, I'm too old and to well off to really give a damn. I post here to share my experience and knowledge. Take it for what its worth and I know that often, it ain't worth much.



So, in your experience, was "that lifestyle" a good price for finding your "soul mate"?


----------



## Complexity

Betrayed1 I'm usually on the Pro Divorce side of this forum but as you could probably tell, I'm pretty sympathetic with your wife and don't see her as this monster that the majority of people on here do.

However I completely sympathise with the desperation you're going through, it's soul wrenching. Fundamentally however, you have to understand that there isn't a quick fix solution. It took years to get to this situation and will probably take the equivalent to rebuild it. 

If you're a believer of the fog argument, then hold out hope as your wife may come around sooner than you think. If you don't, then the both of you have to put in serious work and see whether it's worth saving what you had for 30 years. You're going to experience stages where chances of reconciliation will seem impossible and you'll have to deal with the withdrawals your wife will have for the OM. Before even attempting reconciliation you have to assess whether she's worth fighting for. 

The fact your wife came here to seek help in guiding in you through this stage and took a bashing that is frankly unreasonable, should be commended. It also shows that she isn't cut/dry about leaving you and isn't completely emotionally detached like some cheating spouses. I don't think you should stress over the NC issue when she isn't at the remorse stage yet, and as she's already indicated, she's been the peruser the entire time. Moreover the OM told her not to contact him until the divorce papers are signed. 

Conversely emptyinside, you also have to be honest with your husband as to whether you want save the marriage or not. If it's the latter, spare him the pain and file for divorce yourself. If you want to reconcile, you can't be pining for the OM and most importantly, you have to give your husband a chance. As you could probably tell, he's dealing with both infidelity and the fact you don't love him any more, both of which are devastating in their own rights. Understandably you resent the fact that it came to this for him to realise that he's loved all along, but as you said yourself, we're all human in the end.

Just to reiterate Betrayed1, patience is your key, emotions are incredibly raw right now and there is no magic wand to make her fall back in love with you.


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## Shaggy

Come on EI - send that NC letter. You say you're trying to R - so send that letter.


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## Fvstringpicker

aug said:


> So, in your experience, was "that lifestyle" a good price for finding your "soul mate"?


Aug, I'm not trying to give you a clever answer. Meeting my wife was my salvation (on this earth). I was on a bad path. I'd probably been killed if I was continued down that path. At the time I didn't care. I'm sympathetic with Empty because I know how low and inadequate you can feel when the person you've married treats you like you don't measure up.( and using sex as a weapon and negotiation tool). I was doing everything I knew to do to improve the situation, all the time paying special attention to others talking about what a great love life they had with their wives while I was lucky to score once every two or three months. I was taking and than instructing Taekwondo, lifting weights and had washboard abs. (at 65, I still do-to an extent). Despite this, my self confidence, on the low side anyway, was in the toilet. It went on for years until one day I received an offer I didn't refuse. After that I snapped. I worked in a profession that placed me around a lot of women and word spread that I would play. There were many who would play and they didn't care and I went nuts. I was out to prove myself and I resented her for those years of rejection. 
As much as it may sound as if I'm justifying my behavior, I am not. It's the history of the way it went down and my mindset at the time. I fully realize the weight of my decisions, my mistakes and my sins. I should have got out of the marriage early on, but I didn't. 
You asked if the lifestyle was worth finding my soul mate. In reality, there may have been others, but I believe she is the only woman that could have changed me. So, the best answer I can give you is this, and it won't be popular. If I were given the opportunity for a re-do, to be able to go back and correct my mistakes but the cost would be never meeting her, I wouldn't do it.


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## iheartlife

betrayed1 said:


> I would love to hear from those that have reconciled, how soon did the cheating spouse come around, if they did at all, acknowledge what they did, feel remorseful etc. Was it immediately after being discovered or was there a week or two or more until they came around and took full ownership of what they had done. I have yet to find anything about this.
> what's the norm here?


I wish I could give you a hard and fast idea of what the future will bring. I can only tell my story, which has some similarities but also differences from yours.

My FWH and I knew each other for 20 years, married for 15, two kids. We are in our mid 40's.

Short story: we had two kids close in age, I chose to stay home and quit my high-powered job. FWH kept his high-powered job. Exhaustion, loneliness, extremely long work hours and lots of travel, little support / family / friends to help, tight fnances--led us to grow apart. I was also an entitled complainer who did not hesitate to take out my frustrations and anger on him. Our sex life dwindled down to nothing. I injured my leg severely which limited many things for 6 mos. to a year (driving, caring properly for the kids, etc.). 

Meantime, he met a co-worker who was in an unhappy marriage (she told me her husband married for love, but she married him to please her parents--for his status / connections / money). They bonded over their unhappy marriages.

DD#1 was about 1.5 years into their affair, which consisted largely of texting and phone calls (her H and child care situation put a lot of restraint on her freedom). I discovered a secret email account open on our computer. My FWH promised no contact, but 3 to 4 weeks later he sent her an email and they were back where they started. This was around the time we started MC. Attended MC for 6+ mos while they secretly continued the affair.

On DD#1 the emails I discovered disclosed that he thought she was his 'soulmate,' 'best friend,' 'only person in the whole world who understood him.' I was too ignorant of how affairs worked (just like you) to verify that they weren't in contact.

3 years went by. During that time, I worked on myself, improving in every way, particularly my attitude toward life (huge, huge changes). I did these for myself. I didn't know he was still in his affair.

About 4 months ago, my FWH accidentally texted me instead of her. And thus I discovered that they were still in it. All told, 4.5 years of "I love yous."

However, on DD#2 my FWH walked away from the affair. I, too, had to catch him first. But I was fortunate--I had made many changes that made my FWH feel that it was more than worth it to reconcile and recommit. He had no problem with sending a No Contact and in fact was harsher than most because he wanted a definitive rejection. He knew that would be what it would take for her to stop pining and hoping he would return to her.

I did a lot of research and found an excellent MC. I wanted an MC that was pro-marriage but just as important, one who was trained in dealing with infidelity. Our prior horrible MC experience taught me that focusing on how bad the marriage was leading up to the affair, without dealing with the horrible betrayal of the affair itself, is a huge mistake and a waste of your time and money. The way I found our MC was to locate porn and sex addiction therapists (we live in a large metro area). My FWH is neither but I surmised from their literature that they know a lot about compulsions (and most affairs qualify) and escapist behavior along with, of course, infidelity in life partnerships.

In addition to my changing (which again, I didn't do for him or to save the marriage--I thought things were okay although not great), the other big thing I ponder is whether my FWH had to do something more terrible to me than I ever did to him. Not to compare who was worse, but more that he had to balance it out psychologically in order not to resent me any more for the damage I did to our relationship before (I didn't do 100% of the damage, but I own up to well over half.) If your wife can wrap her head around that, maybe the two of you can find a path to forgive each other.


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## MattMatt

I do not think EI is a monster. However, she has allowed herself to do and say some pretty monstrous things.

And THIS is where it is so sad. She has repeatedly done and said things that must have been intended to wound and hurt B1.

But I accept that, normally, she is not the kind of person who would do such callous things. 

But she did them.

And that's what hurts B1 so much. 

Counselling -even if it designed to help end the marriage- is a must.

I think EI is intellectually aware of what she has done that was wrong. But on an emotional level? I get the distinct impression that she does not fully understand the damage she has caused him.

EI, I have been where your husband is, and the love of my life did not understand what her affair did to me. She was clueless. Oh, yes, she knew what happened would 'hurt' me. But she did not understand. Not really.

When she saw how broken up I was, then she understood, then she was remorseful because she saw how ill it had made me feel.

We got over it and are still together 15 years+ later.


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## Chaparral

Like Shaggy said, the OM is not what WW thinks he is. He hasn't lived with her and truly know her. And her idea of him is mostly what she wishes it was. That's why all affairs are fantasies.

EI, the chance that two people who have an affair and have a long term life together is only between 1 and 3 out of 100. ( Depending on the study). Only a 1 in 10 chance it will last even three years. Thats as near a certainty as it gets.

Please google infidelity statistics. The numbers simply do not lie. .

Think of it this way, the people that beleive "once a cheater always a cheater" most, are cheaters with experience. There is no way your AP will ever give you trust. It will always be in the back of his mind, if you would cheat on someone you have been married to this long, you will cheat on him too. 

You allready know he isn't an honorable man. Honorable, strong men do not bang married women...............ever. And if they will bang one they will bang another, why wouldn't they?


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## Acabado

> the chance that two people who have an affair and have a long term life together is only between 1 and 3 out of 100


The problem with those statistics is the infatuated wayward always think they are within the odd couple which make it. It's what happen with limerence. They will beat the odds. They are special, unique. Yep. They don't sweat, they shine, he will never have ED, he will always have her back whe she get sick, bills will pay themselves, family and mutual friends will understand (after all they want them to be happy, right?), the betrayed will remain best friend and confidant, even handyman when necessary...


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## Acabado

And what's worse is they base this certaincy over nothing, in the affair they only shared their best parts, reserved the fun, the romance, the good. No test of reality. At all. I'm rather sure that those 16 months affair hardy countain enough continuity to seethhir character faults. 16 months in any legit relationship imply introducing friends, toxic ILs, bad moods, the not that cool clothing... the warts.


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## Fvstringpicker

You hit it out of the park Acabado.


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## Chaparral

Acabado said:


> The problem with those statistics is the infatuated wayward always think they are within the odd couple which make it. It's what happen with limerence. They will beat the odds. They are special, unique. Yep. They don't sweat, they shine, he will never have ED, he will always have her back whe she get sick, bills will pay themselves, family and mutual friends will understand (after all they want them to be happy, right?), the betrayed will remain best friend and confidant, even handyman when necessary...


And what about the Holidays all divided up...........and the birthday parties for the kids. And who do the kids give the credit to for breaking up the family. It just never goes away.


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## sandc

I'm all for R but in this case I recommend you let her go. Fix yourself and find a better life. She will soon realize what she's lost...


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## lordmayhem

chapparal said:


> And what about the Holidays all divided up...........and the birthday parties for the kids. And who do the kids give the credit to for breaking up the family. It just never goes away.


:iagree:

Angry friends and relatives. Angry children, who's family has been broken up. 

In all the messages I read that my fWW sent her OM, not once were the kids mentioned. Sure, my eldest is living on his own and in college, but the youngest still lives at home. She didn't even mention him once. As if he was going to be okay with his mom replacing me with OM, yeah, right.

In their fog, only the two of them exist and they never think of the other consequences of the affair.


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## Chaparral

Almostrecovered said:


> you are an optimist chap, I'll give you that
> 
> 
> personally I think giving CPR to a corpse is a waste of energy



LOL if you want to be a junk yard dog you can't be a giver upper.......you have to grab a root and growl. Or just slink back under the porch.


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## EI

I just thought that I would pop in and say that we made it through another day. It's unbelievable how many ups and downs can occur in a single day. Today we have talked, laughed, cried, argued and had some tender moments. Last night my H asked me if my AP had given me any gifts. I had a necklace. I was never able to wear it except on a few occasions when I was with my AP. This morning my H went to run a few errands and when he left we hugged and kissed goodbye. While he was gone I began to look up templates for my NC letter. I planned to write it and give it to my H with a stamped and addressed envelope so that he could mail it.... just so he would know that it was actually mailed. I also thought that I would hand him the necklace when I handed him the NC letter. H returned fairly quickly from his errands and when he walked in the door he was very angry, pointing his finger at me, shaking and red in the face demanding that I get that &*%$ necklace out of his house right this minute. My H has always been very laid back, calm, introverted, not prone to outbursts of anger and it is something that I am not used to at all. I did not respond positively to this. I told him that I *had* planned to give him the necklace but that it would be because I was ready and not because he threatened and demanded. I think that if someone feels forced to do something that they will be bitter and resentful and I was feeling bitter and resentful when my A began. He told me that I couldn't come with the family tomorrow to his father's house for a Father's Day Cookout if I didn't "get rid of the necklace." I didn't argue and I said that I wouldn't go and that I wouldn't respond to threats. I told him that if he was going to act this way that I felt that we should tell the kids the truth in a controlled environment rather than having them hear it in one of his angry outbursts. In his more rational moments he, more than I, desires that we do not tell the kids. I know that they are adults and they are very aware that something is going on. They've seen me sleeping on the couch for over a year and they seen and heard several loud closed door conversations in the last few weeks. I'd rather talk to them and be honest, without all of the graphic details.... but I'd still be honest. H doesn't want that but I am still afraid that it will come out anyway during an argument and the kids are asking me what's going on.

Later in the afternoon I wrote my H a note and placed the note and necklace in an envelope and told him to dispose of it away from me. I'm not going to lie.... it hurts. I didn't have an affair for 16 months with someone just because I wanted sex. I wanted an emotional and a physical connection and that is what happened. Maybe my AP is a jerk, but obviously, it didn't seem that way to me at the time. If he is a jerk then so am I. I am the one who betrayed my wedding vows, not my AP. I know that I promised to love, honor and cherish.... forsaking all others. But marriage vows don't say that you can forsake each other, either, and that is how it felt to me. I felt totally abandoned.

It hurt me to give up the necklace but I know that it helped my H a great deal and that felt more important to me than the necklace. I still don't know where all of this is going. I still don't know if he will ever be able to heal inside and trust me again and I don't know if I will be able trust this "new man." One that is far different than the man I have known since I was 17. Can people really change that much? I have to heal, too. Having an affair was wrong but I fell in love and I'm not sure what to do about that. So, any words of wisdom or advice?


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## iheartlife

Writing the NC letter is a big step forward. Your H needs to read it and mail it so that he knows what is written in it--he should send it certified mail so he knows it was received.

You may not respond to anger but you may need to get used to it. Affairs follow many of the trajectories of loss (for both you and for him). That is, shock/denial, bargaining, anger, depression, and acceptance. You can see these in yourself, I'm sure; shock/denial that the affair is over, and that you were caught; bargaining, where you were trying to figure out how to maintain the affair and your marriage at the same time, because you like what you had and didn't want it to be over; anger, that you are forced to make a choice; and likely depression already as well.

Your spouse is moving through these things as well. Here is what is so tough about your situation. You still feel very hurt by the state of your marriage. Now you have gone and done something that was every bit as bad--or frankly, far worse. As you've already heard and know, men are very visual. Your husband will be imagining your affair in gory detail and be very traumatized by that. He will also go through a LOT of anger at your betrayal.

There are many ideas for you to grasp right now, but I'll just concentrate on this one:

You know the whole story of the affair. When you met, and how; how long it lasted the first time; what it consisted of. You know how you reconnected, and what you did, and when; you know how often you met, and the ups and downs of the affair.

Your husband JUST found out about the part of the affair that restarted in July. He is experiencing an altered sense of what reality is. He literally feels like up is down and right is left. Part of this is that he was hit with WAVES of revelations. First he found out one thing, then another; and then finally the full truth (if you have given that to him). I realize you thought you were shielding him from pain, but the truth is, the LYING from affairs will kill your marriage dead long before the sex will. It's the lying that he may not recover from. He has to learn to trust you again.

You are in a tough spot. You desperately need the marriage itself to improve. You need him to reconnect and meet your needs. If he was so disconnected from you--well, then you weren't meeting his needs either. I'm not saying you didn't try--maybe he wasn't letting you. (But you almost surely weren't doing it the last 16 mos.) But he just got off the tilt-o-whirl. He is not anywhere near the acceptance stage yet. You are going to need to recommit to the marriage without any certainty that it's going to get where you need it to go any time soon. You are going to need to give him 6 mos or more--carte blanche--together with good-quality marriage counseling (pro-marriage, trained in infidelity). Thems the breaks. What is 6 mos when your affair lasted 16?


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## BigLiam

Well, perhaps you have to do some changing, as well. I doubt your husband was the sole source of the problems in the marriage.
You really should have tried harder or divorced vs cheating.


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## EI

BigLiam said:


> Well, perhaps you have to do some changing, as well. I doubt your husband was the sole source of the problems in the marriage.
> You really should have tried harder or divorced vs cheating.


I tried pretty damn hard Big Liam! I think my H will attest to the fact that I did everything in my power to get his attention and tell him that things needed to change. If you have read through these comments on both threads you will see that I did a great deal of work changing myself for both his and my benefit before I asked for any changes from him. I should have filed for divorce last year, but it simply was not a financial possibility and it really does take a village with a special needs child. I understand that everyone here sees this as me giving the same excuses over and over. They aren't excuses, they are my explanations. That's all I have. I guess I'm wondering if people can fall back in love and find their desire for one another again. Can a marriage suffer these kinds of blows and recover? We've been together for 31 years.... dated for 3 and married for 28 next week. Until about 10-12 years ago it was pretty great. H has always been a quiet introverted type and me more of the extroverted adventurer, but we balanced each other out.


----------



## EI

bandit.45 said:


> You and your husband lost track of each other. You can get that love back and it can be a deeper richer love if you are both willing to put in the work.
> 
> It can't happen unless you send that letter and say goodbye to the OM forever. You will have withdrawls and you will mourn the loss of that relationship for a long time, but as you distance yourself from it I think you will begin to see how flawed and wrong it was.
> 
> If you and your husband work at the relationship, I think your feelings of love for him will come back quicker than you think. You may even realise you never really lost those feelings, but rather, you shoved them to the back of your heart to make way for the transient infatuation you have for the OM.



Bandit, did you stop and smell the roses today? It almost sounds like you're softening a bit!


----------



## EI

bandit.45 said:


> My wife cheated on me twice in our marriage. Unlike your husband, I doted on her and treated her like a queen.
> 
> We are divorcing.
> 
> I'd like to see one f*cking happy ending for once.
> 
> Just give it a try... okay?



I'm so sorry. I think when that kind of thing happens you have to accept that it was something that was missing inside of her rather than something you did or didn't do. But I know it hurts all the same. I am going to try. I really am and I pretty excited about it right now. It's kind of like this really amazing guy is chasing me around and I don't even have to worry if he'll pop the question.... because he already has!


----------



## Complexity

I'm glad things are looking on the up emptyinside. I hope you and your husband have a great father's day tomorrow.


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## aug

Empty Inside said:


> I'm so sorry. I think when that kind of thing happens you have to accept that it was something that was missing inside of her rather than something you did or didn't do. But I know it hurts all the same. I am going to try. I really am and I pretty excited about it right now. *It's kind of like this really amazing guy is chasing me around and I don't even have to worry if he'll pop the question.... because he already has! *


Realize that is part of his coping mechanism dealing with this matter. He's changed now because of what happened. What he will finally decide as his future depends on his self-esteem and self-respect -- and that decision will take some time.


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## EI

aug said:


> Realize that is part of his coping mechanism dealing with this matter. He's changed now because of what happened. What he will finally decide as his future depends on his self-esteem and self-respect -- and that decision will take some time.



I know, you're right. But for so long I craved his time and attention and now that I have it I am going to relish every moment. He wants to hold me and I want to be held. He wants to spend time talking and touching and I want to talk and be touched. While we're doing all of that I am going to do everything I can to help build his self-esteem and self-respect, although a lot of that has to come from within. I am going to remind him of all of the good times and all of the reasons that I chose to marry him and not someone like the OM in the first place. I'm feeling very hopeful tonight. Who knows what tomorrow will bring. Hopefully, a great day because our daughter, son-in-law, and new grandson, and the boys and their girlfriends will be joining us at H's father's house for a cookout. I'm finished cooking for tomorrow so I am going to turn in now. Everyone have a great evening. Happy Father's Day to all of you wonderful Dads!


----------



## morituri

To have a new beginning, both of you must destroy your past selves.


----------



## YellowRoses

The necklace

To me that story shows you're on the way but not there yet

You having the necklace in the house hurt and then enraged your husband as he thought about it

You did not instantly give it up willingly to help him, only a few hours later. You dug in your heels to his 'threats' putting a gift from OM ahead of a family Father's Day. Think what that looks like to him. Yes you got there a few hours later I know

When you are more in the frame to willingly offer 'here is the only thing I have from him, please throw it in the trash' then I think you might be on the starting blocks

Right now, you seem to be revelling in how good your husband is making YOU feel. You should be doing the same for him AND more

If he and you want to reconcile, fine but keep your self-awareness on the front burner at all times for now. Ask yourself honestly, what would you have done with the necklace if he hadn't asked ? Would you have put in a drawer with your fond memories of OM, only for your husband to find at some later date and feel like cr*p all over again


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## 827Aug

1. Treat others on the forum with dignity and respect. 

8. Be supportive of others and their desire to have happier, healthier relationships.

Have some of you forgotten the rules? For those who cannot abide by these two basic rules, it's probably best that you skip this thread.


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## vickyyy

827Aug said:


> 1. Treat others on the forum with dignity and respect.
> 
> 8. Be supportive of others and their desire to have happier, healthier relationships.
> 
> Have some of you forgotten the rules? For those who cannot abide by these two basic rules, it's probably best that you skip this thread.



wtf...r u sick...cheaters r coward they dont deserve any respect.


----------



## Chaparral

EI you really need to read the Wayward Spouse Instructions and study them with your husband. I think you will be shocked at how helpful this is. It will give you a map to go by.

Your husband needs to read "Married Man Sex Life". If he can read this and apply its principles, everything will change. He also needs to read "No More Mister Nice Guy" since he seems very beta and too laid back. There is also a MAP plan for your husband in MMSL. 

Seriously, with a little effort and direction, you two can do this.

I'm not sure about you but your BS needs to see the Doctor for a little medical consult and some meds to even things out a bit. Unfortunately, doctors see this a lot.

You can print off the WWS instructions at this link, 11posts down.



http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...sided-need-perspective-please.html#post534068


----------



## Deejo

vickyyy said:


> wtf...r u sick...cheaters r coward they dont deserve any respect.


Buh-bye.


----------



## B1

Yesterday was a day of setbacks, a lot of hurt feelings came out from both of us, but then we had some break throughs. I got angry again and lost it a bit over the necklace, I shouldn't have done that but I did. My wife is being honest, transparent and not doing things based on what your supposed to do but rather on what her heart says. She gave the necklace to me not because of my anger and threat but because she cared and that it hurt me, honestly, I would much rather have it that way. 

She is being there for me whenever I have a questions, concerns, and even when I cry, and I am there when she cries, sounds crazy in a way, being there for each other over such horrible things we did to each other, but it's the truth. We can still comfort each other in this crazy mess, even though we may be angry a few hours later.

We have a long road ahead of us, we will get counseling and I will get counseling so I never fall back into suppressing my emotions and holding them back from her. A woman needs to feel cherished, loved and adored, that's just a fact. I am ready to give that but only if I can be the only man in her heart, and that's where the problem is right now. I allowed my marriage to wither and die, she tried so hard to water our garden and have an affair with me, she DID warn me she would find passion elsewhere if not from me.

Now she has work to do also, the NC letter, but she has to want to send it, she has to be honestly ready to send it and I think she is getting there. She has to move on and past her feelings of the OM, she has to show true honest heartfelt remorse for the cruel and selfish decision she made. 

I do love her, I do want this to work out now. Maybe later today I will feel different, not sure, but for now she is worth it to me, our marriage is worth it to me. The BIG question is how long can I hold out while she has withdraws from this affair? How much can I take? How long will it take for her to fall back in love with me? those are some tough unanswerable questions right now. 

BTW: Happy Fathers Day to all the dads out there!


----------



## Chaparral

betrayed1, did you read my last post?


----------



## Shaggy

EI - So you're husband isn't allowed to get angry??? Do you expect him to smile and be happy and pleasant?

I think you blew it when he came home angry. Instead of how you reacted, I think you should have defused the situation entirely differently: You should have looked him the eye and agreed about the necklace. 

Having that necklace still in your marital home is humiliating slap in your husbands face. You should have given it to him to destroy in front of you, along with any other gifts, long ago. 

So go get the rest of the gifts, and also the lingerie, sexy clothes, perfume that you've worn for the OM, and that you bought for the OM and throw them in the trash too. NC means both NC with the OM and with the things and mementos of the affair.

They all have to go. If you ever make love again to your husband, it should never be wearing stuff you've wore for the OM. That's simply sick. 

Purging this stuff is very symbolic of you choosing to work on the marriage.


----------



## B1

chapparal said:


> EI you really need to read the Wayward Spouse Instructions and study them with your husband. I think you will be shocked at how helpful this is. It will give you a map to go by.
> 
> Your husband needs to read "Married Man Sex Life". If he can read this and apply its principles, everything will change. He also needs to read "No More Mister Nice Guy" since he seems very beta and too laid back. There is also a MAP plan for your husband in MMSL.
> 
> Seriously, with a little effort and direction, you two can do this.
> 
> I'm not sure about you but your BS needs to see the Doctor for a little medical consult and some meds to even things out a bit. Unfortunately, doctors see this a lot.
> 
> You can print off the WWS instructions at this link, 11posts down.
> 
> 
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...sided-need-perspective-please.html#post534068


Thank you chapparal I will do just that!


----------



## EI

betrayed1 said:


> I do love her, I do want this to work out now. Maybe later today I will feel different, not sure, but for now she is worth it to me, our marriage is worth it to me. The BIG question is how long can I hold out while she has withdraws from this affair? How much can I take? How long will it take for her to fall back in love with me? those are some tough unanswerable questions right now.



I love you, too, and I, also, want to work this out. I woke up today thinking of you and only you. Been thinking about YOU ever since! <3


----------



## Deejo

I'm late to the party ... but this certainly is a good one.

I'm going to presume that the two of you will be, or are seeing a professional. You need one. At the very least to help you establish a game-plan to rebuild the marriage you hope to recover, or acknowledge if it can be recovered.

Wish you both the best.

Now stop posting to each other on a message board and say what you need to say with your mouths instead of your fingers.


----------



## BigLiam

betrayed1 said:


> Yesterday was a day of setbacks, a lot of hurt feelings came out from both of us, but then we had some break throughs. I got angry again and lost it a bit over the necklace, I shouldn't have done that but I did. My wife is being honest, transparent and not doing things based on what your supposed to do but rather on what her heart says. She gave the necklace to me not because of my anger and threat but because she cared and that it hurt me, honestly, I would much rather have it that way.
> 
> She is being there for me whenever I have a questions, concerns, and even when I cry, and I am there when she cries, sounds crazy in a way, being there for each other over such horrible things we did to each other, but it's the truth. We can still comfort each other in this crazy mess, even though we may be angry a few hours later.
> 
> We have a long road ahead of us, we will get counseling and I will get counseling so I never fall back into suppressing my emotions and holding them back from her. A woman needs to feel cherished, loved and adored, that's just a fact. I am ready to give that but only if I can be the only man in her heart, and that's where the problem is right now. I allowed my marriage to wither and die, she tried so hard to water our garden and have an affair with me, she DID warn me she would find passion elsewhere if not from me.
> 
> Now she has work to do also, the NC letter, but she has to want to send it, she has to be honestly ready to send it and I think she is getting there. She has to move on and past her feelings of the OM, she has to show true honest heartfelt remorse for the cruel and selfish decision she made.
> 
> I do love her, I do want this to work out now. Maybe later today I will feel different, not sure, but for now she is worth it to me, our marriage is worth it to me. The BIG question is how long can I hold out while she has withdraws from this affair? How much can I take? How long will it take for her to fall back in love with me? those are some tough unanswerable questions right now.
> 
> BTW: Happy Fathers Day to all the dads out there!



Your wife had myriad other choices to address the marital problems. I fear you are taking to much of the blame for the marriage, while in your dep;eted, traumatized state.


----------



## EI

Deejo said:


> I'm late to the party ... but this certainly is a good one.
> 
> I'm going to presume that the two of you will be, or are seeing a professional. You need one. At the very least to help you establish a game-plan to rebuild the marriage you hope to recover, or acknowledge if it can be recovered.
> 
> Wish you both the best.
> 
> Now stop posting to each other on a message board and say what you need to say with your mouths instead of your fingers.


We are, both, seeing a counselor this week. I have an appointment tomorrow afternoon and his is Friday, although I think that our counselor will try to bump H up earlier in the week if he has any availability. I think that it's important that we each have a chance to speak to the counselor individually before we go in together. 

Thank you for wishing us well. I have learned to smile at the well wishes and let the less than pleasant comments sink in if they have anything of value to contribute. I came here seeking answers, not approval, from others who may be going through or who have recovered from similar situations. I let the malicious comments go in one ear and out the other. They don't help either my husband or myself and they are more of a reflection of where the poster is in their journey rather than who we are! I hope everyone has a wonderful day. I truly do!


----------



## BigLiam

Empty Inside said:


> I tried pretty damn hard Big Liam! I think my H will attest to the fact that I did everything in my power to get his attention and tell him that things needed to change. If you have read through these comments on both threads you will see that I did a great deal of work changing myself for both his and my benefit before I asked for any changes from him. I should have filed for divorce last year, but it simply was not a financial possibility and it really does take a village with a special needs child. I understand that everyone here sees this as me giving the same excuses over and over. They aren't excuses, they are my explanations. That's all I have. I guess I'm wondering if people can fall back in love and find their desire for one another again. Can a marriage suffer these kinds of blows and recover? We've been together for 31 years.... dated for 3 and married for 28 next week. Until about 10-12 years ago it was pretty great. H has always been a quiet introverted type and me more of the extroverted adventurer, but we balanced each other out.


I know a special needs child is a ton of work, I have a son with Down syndrome and autism. Raised him, virtually, by myself while my wife drank and had affairs.
The changes I am referring to may be your moral compass. By definition, a cheater is lacking in this area.
It is really hard to swallow that someone capable of cheating, with all the attendant lying, cruelty etc. was as great a spouse as you claim to have been.
Anyway, good luck. I hope you can change.


----------



## B1

Shaggy said:


> EI - So you're husband isn't allowed to get angry??? Do you expect him to smile and be happy and pleasant?
> 
> I think you blew it when he came home angry. Instead of how you reacted, I think you should have defused the situation entirely differently: You should have looked him the eye and agreed about the necklace.
> 
> Having that necklace still in your marital home is humiliating slap in your husbands face. You should have given it to him to destroy in front of you, along with any other gifts, long ago.
> 
> So go get the rest of the gifts, and also the lingerie, sexy clothes, perfume that you've worn for the OM, and that you bought for the OM and throw them in the trash too. NC means both NC with the OM and with the things and mementos of the affair.
> 
> They all have to go. If you ever make love again to your husband, it should never be wearing stuff you've wore for the OM. That's simply sick.
> 
> Purging this stuff is very symbolic of you choosing to work on the marriage.


Agree 100%. Purging this stuff will begin today.


----------



## B1

Deejo said:


> I'm late to the party ... but this certainly is a good one.
> 
> I'm going to presume that the two of you will be, or are seeing a professional. You need one. At the very least to help you establish a game-plan to rebuild the marriage you hope to recover, or acknowledge if it can be recovered.
> 
> Wish you both the best.
> 
> Now stop posting to each other on a message board and say what you need to say with your mouths instead of your fingers.


We have talked more in the past few days than the past 10 years. An hour doesn't go by that we don't talk, then it may be for hours on end. We go from angry to sad to loving and back to angry all in one conversation. We usually always end the conversations with a hug a long deep meaningful hug and sometimes a kiss. 

Yes we are seeking professional help individually and together. 
I need to talk to someone else about this also, I know that and actually need it desperately. 

Some of the links provided have been an immense help to me here while I am in limbo waiting to talk with a counselor.


----------



## Shaggy

betrayed1 said:


> Agree 100%. Purging this stuff will begin today.


Good! Don't do it angry, do it as more of a taking positive action ceremony.


----------



## aug

BigLiam said:


> Your wife had myriad other choices to address the marital problems. I fear you are taking to much of the blame for the marriage, while in your dep;eted, traumatized state.


:iagree: 

You have lots of time, dont you?


----------



## Deejo

The only 2 people here that ultimately have a say in how this turns out are the two of you.

The work is hard.

Your best days in therapy will be the ones where you walk out feeling the worst. That's how it goes.

Don't short-change the process. 

Therapy doesn't fix your marriage. Therapy is tool that YOU use to fix your marriage. It just provides the guidelines for getting there.

If you are going to 'fake' it ... don't bother. Don't mean to sound accusatory, but I myself, as well as many others here can attest to sitting in counseling and listening to your partner talk about what they are willing to do, take responsibility for, work hard to change, and even get all weepy ... then the moment therapy was over it was back to the status quo.

If you both want this ... there is NO reason that you can't work together and make it happen.

If you discover that you can't work together to make it happen, at the very least you know that you tried to save a broken marriage.

Just be real. No one can ask any more.


----------



## AngryandUsed

Deejo has said it so well.

It is between EI and B1. Work with all honesty and sincerity. I am quite hopeful that the marriage will survive.

Good lucks.


----------



## morituri

Anger and bitterness must be exorcised from both your hearts for they have nothing good to offer, only to poison your hearts and souls. So when you feel one or both of these toxic twin demons, immediately challenge yourselves by asking "What good is being angry and bitter going to bring me?" over and over until they leave you alone. 

And if this is too touchie feelie for your taste, consider then that no matter what happens to the marriage, if you allow it, anger and bitterness will follow you wherever you go. Isn't that reason enough to get rid of them?

Here's some info that hopefully will be of value to both.

*3 Ways to Erase Post-Affair Anger*
*Cheated On, Tortured by Images*
*http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/40190-feeding-affair-image-beast.html#post593486*
*Erase Obsessive Affair Images (in 30 Minutes)*
*How to Rebuild Your Spouse's Trust After an Affair*


----------



## B1

morituri said:


> Anger and bitterness must be exorcised from both your hearts for they have nothing good to offer, only to poison your hearts and souls. So when you feel one or both of these toxic twin demons, immediately challenge yourselves by asking "What good is being angry and bitter going to bring me?" over and over until they leave you alone.
> 
> And if this is too touchie feelie for your taste, consider then that no matter what happens to the marriage, if you allow it, anger and bitterness will follow you wherever you go. Isn't that reason enough to get rid of them?
> 
> Here's some info that hopefully will be of value to both.
> 
> *3 Ways to Erase Post-Affair Anger*
> *Cheated On, Tortured by Images*
> *http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/40190-feeding-affair-image-beast.html#post593486*
> *Erase Obsessive Affair Images (in 30 Minutes)*
> *How to Rebuild Your Spouse's Trust After an Affair*


Thank you morituri, I will read everyone of those articles. I am learning so much from other links and articles provided, I am learning my responses, my feelings are all pretty normal, I;m not crazy for wanting details, my numbness was normal, my conflicting emotions, again all normal for what I am going through. Today has been overall a good day, I struggled a little while ago with flashbacks and overall feelings of sadness, again from what I have read this can be expected. My wife is being there for me, she is much less defensive today. It's still a conflict to me, that my source of pain is also my source of comfort. A very odd thing to deal with but I am. Day by day and hour by hour that's how it goes right now.


----------



## Badblood

Betrayed1, Some of my posts have been deleted, and possibly with justification. I apologize to all for my outburst. What I would like you to think about is the task before you. You are going to try to redeem a marriage that BOTH of you caused to be bad. At the same time , you are going to try to deal with the horrible treatment that your wife has shown you, by having an affair. Each of these tasks is daunting and maybe un-doable, but I applaud you for trying. Many other posters will tell you that it is doable, and have given you good advice. I want to ask you, in all honesty , if you feel that you can overcome the main issues. 1. can you ever be completely trusting of her again? 2.Can you ever get past the fact that another man used your wife? 3. Can you look into the future with any kind of confidence that she will be faithful? 4. When you have sex again, will you not wonder if she is comparing you to the OM, and when she tells you she loves and respects you, will you, can you, believe her? These are some of the unpleasant , but necessary questions you will have to answer. In my case, I couldn't answer yes, to any of those questions. Take all of the time you need, get all of the help you can, so that when you do answer them, you will be at peace with your answers. Good Luck.


----------



## aug

Badblood said:


> 4. When you have sex again, will you not wonder if she is comparing you to the OM, and when she tells you she loves and respects you, will you, can you, believe her?



Especially this.

How are you ever going to match or surpass the OM? And believe that's the case?


----------



## happyman64

B1 & EI,

I just caught up on this thread and all I want to say is 

*Go For It!*

What have you got to lose but:

Each Other!
Your Marriage!
Years of Great Times!
Your Family!
Your Love for Each Other which is Definitely Still There!!!

So think about that for a minute today.

Communication and Professional Help is the key.

And do not ever revert back to that bad old relationship you both had and hated......

Good Luck You Two

Hm64


----------



## Fvstringpicker

Badblood said:


> 2.Can you ever get past the fact that another man used your wife? 4. When you have sex again, will you not wonder if she is comparing you to the OM


I have to question viewing it as "another man used" the woman. If that's the case, any of us married to a woman who was not a virgin and especially those previously married or in a serious relationship, had another man, "use" our wives. Besides, after you get past the used part, its not bad. 

I hope if I wrong some women will correct me, but from what I know about women, they are not constantly comparing one lover to another unless one is really, really bad. If that's the case, he is compared to all the rest. Besides, any guy that's convinced himself that he's the best lover in the world is fooling himself. It like my uncle says, "You ain't ever gonna be the only one that can plow that field boy."


----------



## crossbar

The Problem is Empty, you come on a forum where the majority have been hurt and betrayed in the worst possible way. So, yeah. You are going to have people on here that are going to be harsh. Especially if the WW or WH shows no remorse at all! 

But, if you come on here and show TRUE remorse for your actions, people are more likely to give advice that is beneficial. I mean, to be totally honest with you. Your posts don't really sound like true remorse. More like, " I've been telling him for years. What did he expect? He got what he deserved."

But, then you wrote that you are writing an NC letter to the OM, and the posts softened up a bit. Hell, you had Bandit saying pleasant things! That's huge!! (no disrespect Bandit!  ) 

So, your husband got angry. And I think he had EVERY RIGHT to be upset. That necklace is a token of affection from another man that was inside his house! The only place in this world where he should be able to feel safe. Surely, you had to had understood that! Having that necklace was not only disrespectful to him, but to your entire family. Because it was an intrusion. So, don't get mad at him. I think he was justified. 

Also, you have to understand that he's on a ride right now. It's called the roller coaster of emotions. And it's a very WILD ride and no one knows when it's going to end. Different strokes for different folks. He's going to be happy one minute, and sad the next. He be laughing one minute and crying the next. He'll be content one minute and angry as hell the next. He'll tell you that he loves you and needs you in his life one minute and calling you a cheating sl*t the next.

This coaster ride is normal for this situation. But, the question is. Can you be on this ride with him? Because, if you're not able to ride it out with him, then there really isn't much hope. That where you need to look at yourself and this situation. You have to be 100% dedicated to making this work.


----------



## aug

Fvstringpicker said:


> I have to question viewing it as "another man used" the woman. If that's the case, any of us married to a woman who was not a virgin and especially those previously married or in a serious relationship, had another man, "use" our wives. Besides, after you get past the used part, its not bad.
> 
> I hope if I wrong some women will correct me, but from what I know about women, they are not constantly comparing one lover to another unless one is really, really bad. If that's the case, he is compared to all the rest. Besides, any guy that's convinced himself that he's the best lover in the world is fooling himself. It like my uncle says, "You ain't ever gonna be the only one that can plow that field boy."



When a certain level of "service" was provided, say for 16 months, any drop is noticeable. 

I guess there are ways to spin that change.


----------



## warlock07

Empty Inside said:


> I love you, too, and I, also, want to work this out. I woke up today thinking of you and only you. Been thinking about YOU ever since! <3


already?


----------



## Chaparral

aug said:


> Especially this.
> 
> How are you ever going to match or surpass the OM? And believe that's the case?


Especially this? Few people marry virgins today, do they think when they are having sex, all the people that came before them were maybe better than them? As a matter of fact if you marry a virgin, you will get crucified on this site for marrying to young. Most people just assume, rightly, that the reason someone is with you is because you beat out the competition.

Don't want to beat a dead horse, but it seems a lot of people can't seem to grasp the purpose of this site.


----------



## aug

chapparal said:


> Especially this? Few people marry virgins today, do they think when they are having sex, all the people that came before them were maybe better than them? As a matter of fact if you marry a virgin, you will get crucified on this site for marrying to young. Most people just assume, rightly, that the reason someone is with you is because you beat out the competition.
> 
> Don't want to beat a dead horse, but it seems a lot of people can't seem to grasp the purpose of this site.




You're thinking about virgins. I was thinking about what she said of her lover: "the physical intimacy with my AP was like nothing I have ever experienced". So, that intensity was not there in the 30 years marriage and one of the reasons she gave for wanting her lover.

Also, note that the husband had known her since she was 17. I assume he's young then too.


----------



## Vanguard

Nevermind.


----------



## B1

Yesterday for half the day I was willing to work it out, towards the end of the day I wanted to give up and
call it quits, I felt I just couldn't do it and I felt she couldn't either.
Now this morning, I woke up feeling different, more hopeful.
She is writing the NC letter today, it's her decision, nothing I forced upon her. She is ready now.
She is hopeful right now and so am I. We have so much hard work ahead of us though, we have to literally start over
because were we came from was a absolute train wreck, even without the A.

How can I get over her being with OM? let me tell you, it's not easy and it will take time. It is literally
hour by hour, the mind movies are horrible, the thought of it sickens me but I believe I can do it, I can face this monster and work through it. We will see. 
She answers any and all questions anytime day or night and believe me I have woken her more than once to ask a question and she, without being defensive at all, always answers them, bluntly and honestly. She sometimes doesn't want to, becuase she knows it hurts me so, but she does. The counselor is not a big proponent of this for some reason. It doesn't matter though she gives me the information I want.


I believe she is beginning to see the intense pain she has caused me, it's sinking in now, hopefully true remorse will follow soon. I am beginning for the first time to feel very angry towards OM, picturing myself beating the $hit out of him etc. Anger is starting to well up now, it comes and goes.. I am even agry that the SOB
just tossed her aside after the going got tough, after he knew I knew he was done with her, she was used and as odd as that
sounds, I am pi$$ed about that, is that crazy or what? I know I should be happy, like, "well you got what you deserve" and part of me feels that, but the other part feels protective over my wife....I guess I'm just not normal.

Overall I still want to try, I still except my part in the train wreck we called a marriage. She had counseling yesterday, mine is Friday then we have another for both of us next week, I guess this will be weekly for a while. Counseling was gruleing on her, she admitted and she cried a lot yesterday. My tears were not so many. This morning I did briefly..then anger set in. As of now, this moment, I am truly hopeful we can R. 

I am anxiously awaiting my counsleing session and sessions. I must learn to NEVER again repress emotions especially love which I did. I "feel" now, something I didn't do in the past, I will never allow myself to not feel again, even if it does hurt, which it still does, it's still very raw, and yes I am on a roller coaster of emotions, that is SO true! and I think my wife is on board now too, if not she's next in line.

One things I have noticed is that evenings are the hardest right now, I get very anxious and don't know what to do with myself...it's a very uneasy nervous feeling. I have a Dr. appt. scheduled also, maybe she can help with this part?


----------



## kenmoore14217

"I am even agry that the SOB
just tossed her aside after the going got tough, after he knew I knew he was done with her, she was used and as odd as that
sounds, I am pi$$ed about that, is that crazy or what? I know I should be happy, like, "well you got what you deserve" and part of me feels that, but the other part feels protective over my wife....I guess I'm just not normal."

To me this speaks volumes about your love and devotion to your wife.


----------



## B1

warlock07 said:


> already?


Agreed...I thought that too. 

But I know her and at that moment, on her roller coaster that's where she was and she is very quick to express her feelings. She does want to work it out, she does want her family in tact. However, she knows this logically not emotionally yet. Perhaps for a brief moment she felt it emotionally and she's very emotional and quick to express her feelings. I think that's what we saw.

This being said..late yesterday towards the end of the day, she felt a little different like giving up, yesterday evening was very hard, we all but said it doesn't look like we can do this. Today, we both woke feeling a little more positive. We are trying right now.
It's like we start off the day feeling positive as the day wears on though it all starts pilling up and wears on you and it's almost like it tears you down. All that we have been through, what we have ahead, it's overwhelming in a way and at the end of the day it's almost like....OK..OK.. I give.


----------



## BigLiam

People hate this concept. But, I think you are entitled to go get laid by someone who can rock your world, too. Your wife describes mind blowing sex etc. Where is your share of this?
Immature, two wrongs etc. I know. 
But, when you get to the end of your life, your wife will have had a lot more pleasure than you ever had. Petty, eh?


----------



## keko

betrayed1 said:


> How can I get over her being with OM?


You divorce her, then find a younger hotter woman.


----------



## BigLiam

keko said:


> You divorce her, then find a younger hotter woman.


With your low T taken care of, this might not be a bad idea. You have missed out on a lot.


----------



## Thor

BigLiam said:


> People hate this concept. But, I think you are entitled to go get laid by someone who can rock your world, too. Your wife describes mind blowing sex etc. Where is your share of this?
> Immature, two wrongs etc. I know.
> But, when you get to the end of your life, your wife will have had a lot more pleasure than you ever had. Petty, eh?


Maybe petty, but real life human nature.

I was a 17 yr old virgin when I met my wife. She'd had 3 lovers (that she admits to...). So of course at the time my adolescent ego was threatened. Today it truly does not matter to me that she had other men before we met. I still do have an occasional twinge of curiosity about what it would be like being with other women. But if what we have together is good, I can choose to enjoy what I have. It would not be worth giving up all the good just to have a few other experiences.

But when I think about her having an affair? You're dead nuts on target that I would feel that she has taken a lot from me, and I would want to have those other experiences. The illegitimacy of her having great sex in an affair would void any justification for compromising to stay with her.


----------



## Sara8

iheartlife said:


> That's the part that galls me the most.
> 
> Do cheaters really think that betrayed spouses were all whooping it up in the marriage of their wildest dreams? That our needs were being met constantly by spouses who were falling all over themselves to show us love, affection, sex, what have you?
> 
> Think again!
> 
> It all boils down to how one handles the problems in marriage.
> 
> I was the one who BEGGED my husband to tell me why he was so distant. I was SURE there was someone else. Turns out there was--it just took him leaving a secret email account open on our home computer for me to find out. That was a good 4 to 6 months after I first starting begging for answers to his distance.
> 
> I didn't choose to cheat, and I never will. At least I can live with that shred of self-dignity, when all is said and done.


Excellent points, all of them. 

No marriage is perfect. 

The faithful spouses make a choice to stick it out and hope the rough patch passes, if the communication attempts fail. 

The cheater makes the choice to cheat rather than communicate their issues. 

It's really that simple.


----------



## mahike

B1 The ups and downs will be there for sometime. There are days I just think I am done. Then there are days that I know we can work on this. I still am a long way from trusting her again

I have missed some posts here. Has she had to deal with any public humilation with this family, friends. Exposure to others in her life will zap that fog away more quickly. Do your kids know and how did they react?


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## morituri

How are all these comments helpful to their attempts at R? Granted that there are those of us for whom a PA is a deal breaker but since both have chosen to R, why foster toxic anger and bitterness in their hearts?


----------



## Acabado

> I am even agry that the SOB
> just tossed her aside after the going got tough, after he knew I knew he was done with her, she was used and as odd as that
> sounds, I am pi$$ed about that, is that crazy or what?


Your wife is not probably in a emotional place to Understand (Capitals, admit it at a core level) the meaning of it. This is no more than a obvious testament of how much you love your wife, despite what your actions all those years might say otherwise. Feeling you have to protect her and heal her broken heart over some POS speak symphonies of the depths and intensity of your love for her. At the end of the day, empathy is a technical, psychological name for one the more beatiful virtues of human beings; compassion (literaly, etymologically, the desire to share the pain, to pain with, in orden to light the burden off our loved ones).
I think you have the heart in the right place and I hope and feel your wife knows it, hopelly she will be able show you she's gratefut for that once those filters in she percieve things and resentments go away with time.


----------



## EI

I don't have a lot of time right now, but I just wanted to make a quick post. We have had so many ups and downs for the last 3 1/2 weeks. Even yesterday we were discussing a possible separation. But, the absolute pure selfless love that my H has shown for me throughout this, when he is in so much of his own pain, has made me feel like the most loved, cherished, desired and adored woman on the planet. He has been carefully playing a balancing act of a man in need of healing and man who needs to protect and heal his wife. Even if the wife is the one who caused him the pain. Many of you, who are hurting yourself from betrayals, have almost seemed to want him to exact some kind of vigilante justice. My H was never intentionally unkind to me, never a bad person, he simply went from being a quiet, reserved man to a completely 100% shut down man. My heart ached for so long. Loneliness and lack of emotional and physical intimacy has destroyed many marriages. I did communicate my needs. But, he was more guarded than Ft. Knox. That wasn't from anything that had happened in our marriage but from long held scars from childhood. The, apparent, lack of remorse on my part that so many of you were infuriated about in my initial posts was my way of guarding my heart from opening back up to a man who had emotionally abandoned me a long time ago.

The man that I'm married to today has rediscovered all of the wonderful qualities of the barely just legal age boy that I married 28 years ago, but he is so filled with emotions and the capacity to express his love right now that he bears little resemblance to him in any other way. I've changed, too. I'm not sure why we had to go through all that we did to get to where we are. But, I am very, very grateful. I'm scared, too. I'm afraid that this is all just some fantasy that can't last. I hope it does! Now, it's my turn to help him heal and I'm really excited about every new moment that we get to spend together.


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## lordmayhem

It's nice that he's rewarding your betrayal, a long term affair with so much love, that he was never unkind to you. How did you repay that? 

And now its your turn to help him heal? Seriously? You should have been helping him heal from the start! You should be on your knees thanking him every day for not leaving you like he should. 

You should be busting your ass to help him like writing that No Contact letter, ending it with your OM, throwing out the necklace and all momentos of the affair, being transparent, etc. Your post is STILL FULL of self entitlement. *You should have been doing this since DDay!*

You haven't learned a single thing. You think you can betray someone for so long and get a better husand in return. Its all about you.


----------



## Chaparral

bandit.45 said:


> Sigh....hope she doesn't sabotage this R. Too much lovey-dovey too soon. I don't want to be around when she emerges from the fantasy and the magnitude of what she did hits her like a runaway river barge.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If she sabotages this reconcilliation, it will be with the help of a lot of our own posters. Thank God quite a few posters have been banned lately. I really think several posters get off on stirring up trouble. They do not get what this site is all about. Unfortunately I think they might be just a little sick in the head to.


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## MattMatt

> Many of you, who are hurting yourself from betrayals, have almost seemed to want him to exact some kind of vigilante justice.


I wanted you both to be able to get back together. But I am a romantic soul.

But the thing is, knowing intellectually that you hurt someone is one thing. Actually understanding their pain that's different.

I think you are able to do that now.


----------



## lordmayhem

chapparal said:


> If she sabotages this reconcilliation, it will be with the help of a lot of our own posters. Thank God quite a few posters have been banned lately. I really think several posters get off on stirring up trouble. They do not get what this site is all about. Unfortunately I think they might be just a little sick in the head to.


If she sabotages R, then it will be her own doing *by her actions*. She's still in the fog, do you seriously think she takes what we say to heart? By her own admission, she says we are biased by our experiences. 

Sure some people can go overboard, most of them are not very far from their own DDay and are projecting their anger which is to be expected considering the circumstances.


----------



## BigLiam

chapparal said:


> If she sabotages this reconcilliation, it will be with the help of a lot of our own posters. Thank God quite a few posters have been banned lately. I really think several posters get off on stirring up trouble. They do not get what this site is all about. Unfortunately I think they might be just a little sick in the head to.


The fact that some posters have a different view of things does not justify banning them, as long as their views are expressed respectfully.
Enlighten me. Is there some rule on this site that one cannot advocate for the benefits of divorce? Many therapists recommend it as the fastest way to heal.
I think consideration should be given to divorce after infidelity and the advantages discussed. This is not marriagebuilders, after all.


----------



## B1

BigLiam said:


> People hate this concept. But, I think you are entitled to go get laid by someone who can rock your world, too. Your wife describes mind blowing sex etc. Where is your share of this?
> Immature, two wrongs etc. I know.
> But, when you get to the end of your life, your wife will have had a lot more pleasure than you ever had. Petty, eh?


My wife was always a fantastic lover, back before I shut down we had had fantastic\amazing sex but that was 10+ years ago. Long long forgotten.

As tough as it is to say....The OM made her feel good again, loved, desired, wanted etc. something I did not do in any way whatsoever. That's why the sex was so good with OM, women, or at least my wife is a very emotional being, and knowing your wanted and desired has a VERY strong effect on them\her. I did not want her nor desire her these past few years this was from depression, very low testosterone and emotional baggage. She tried so many times to seduce me with sexy clothes, toys, talk, candles, even getting a hotel once. I turned her away EVERY time. That's on me. 
Now with beating depression and the T-injections, counseling I am becoming a very different man. I can offer the love, desire, the want etc. I am in touch with my emotions like never before, sucks sometimes because of this pain but I am "feeling" and that's a good thing.

Yes, we have a very long and hard road ahead of us but I have truly changed and I have so much to offer now and I know she is very capable of rocking my world, and now I can hopefully rock hers.. admittedly this is a sore subject for me, it's not easy, it hurts, but again, I sucked as a husband for many years and put her through hell with my wall of silence and constant rejections. SO as she said today, our old marriage is dead, she will never go back to that, and you know what, I wont either.


----------



## BigLiam

The low T is not your fault. Glad you are getting it taken care of.


----------



## Fvstringpicker

Betrayed, despite what some have said, I wouldn't read too much into what fantastic sex implied she had with the other man. Back in the mid sixties, when I was a teenager, three of us got lost in Uchee swamp while boar hunting. We spent the night in mid twenties temperatures with nothing to eat and found our way to house on the edge of the swamp the late afternoon of the next day. The elderly black lady who lived in the house gave us cornbread and buttermilk. I remember how that cornbread and buttermilk was better than any Thanksgiving feast as I stuff and swallowed as much as I possibly could. When you're starving, you tend to believe cornbread, a basic food around here anyway, is a gourmet meal.


----------



## BigLiam

Fvstringpicker said:


> Betrayed, despite what some have said, I wouldn't read too much into what fantastic sex implied she had with the other man. Back in the mid sixties, when I was a teenager, three of us got lost in Uchee swamp while boar hunting. We spent the night in mid twenties temperatures with nothing to eat and found our way to house on the edge of the swamp the late afternoon of the next day. The elderly black lady who lived in the house gave us cornbread and buttermilk. I remember how that cornbread and buttermilk was better than any Thanksgiving feast as I stuff and swallowed as much as I possibly could. When you're starving, you tend to believe cornbread, a basic food around here anyway, is a gourmet meal.


40th anniversary of the release of "Deliverance" this month, I think.


----------



## iheartlife

BigLiam said:


> 40th anniversary of the release of "Deliverance" this month, I think.


As a friend of mine from W Va once said bitterly, some kinds of prejudice are still acceptable even though we're supposedly all PC.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BigLiam

Never worried about PC:banhim::fro:


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## Complexity

chapparal said:


> If she sabotages this reconcilliation, it will be with the help of a lot of our own posters. Thank God quite a few posters have been banned lately. I really think several posters get off on stirring up trouble. They do not get what this site is all about. Unfortunately I think they might be just a little sick in the head to.


:iagree:

All the snarky comments to the constant derision of their attempts at reconciliation, it's just getting ridiculous. I think all the venom that I've been reading has actually made me more pro reconciliation.

Emptyinside and Betrayed, I'm praying for you both.


----------



## Jibril

Complexity said:


> :iagree:
> 
> All the snarky comments to the constant derision of their attempts at reconciliation, it's just getting ridiculous. I think all the venom that I've been reading has actually made me more pro reconciliation.
> 
> Emptyinside and Betrayed, I'm praying for you both.


I'll admit that, despite my penchant for divorce, I good reconciliation _always_ warms my heart. It makes me feel human, and gives me a bit of hope.

That being said, I feel that Empty Inside is being far too positive - and it comes of as facetious. I get the impression that she's putting on a front, and she's telling everyone what she thinks they want to hear, rather than working on improving herself as a wife and a human being. That's how I read her posts, at least.

It's great that Betrayed1 is addressing his attitudes and flaws with respect to his marriage. I get a strong sense that he is trying to improve himself.

I just don't get that from Empty Inside's posts at all. She says she's changed... but how? Betrayed is giving her all of the attention she could ever have wanted, he's improving himself and working hard to save the marriage. But _she_ should be working on the marriage. Looking back at her latest post, I still see entitlement and excuses.


----------



## EI

Complexity said:


> :iagree:
> 
> All the snarky comments to the constant derision of their attempts at reconciliation, it's just getting ridiculous. I think all the venom that I've been reading has actually made me more pro reconciliation.
> 
> Emptyinside and Betrayed, I'm praying for you both.


Thank you so much! H and I have appreciated your comments. They haven't leaned to one extreme or another. But, they have encouraged both of us. It seems like so many here want to pit my H and I against each other and I don't think most are understanding that he and I are working and hoping for the same goal. We just aren't taking anything for granted. We know that there is lots of hard work to do. If I appear to be defensive it is because I feel the constant need to defend myself. He and I aren't telling two different versions of the same story. We're telling the same story. It's hard for me to understand why complete strangers appear to be more bitter and resentful towards me than my H is. 

Anyway, thank you, again. Your encouragement does help both of us and the personal attacks from some of the others, in fact, does hurt. Not too much.... but a little!


----------



## morituri

There is so much we are not privy as to their daily interactions that it may be prudent to keep an open mind and let their actions from this point on, speak for them.


----------



## EI

BigLiam said:


> The low T is not your fault. Glad you are getting it taken care of.



Big Liam, this is the first comment that you've made that I agree with 100%!


----------



## MattMatt

Empty Inside, if you continue to do to your husband what I think you intend to do to him I want you to please consider these very important steps:

A) Make sure your birth control methods are still effective!*
B) Ensure you have a good supply of energy drinks and glucose for him and also for you!

* I just recalled I knew of someone close to your age who was sure she could not get pregnant at that age. Fine, strapping son she gave birth to!


----------



## EI

Shaggy said:


> Come on EI - send that NC letter. You say you're trying to R - so send that letter.


I mailed it today!


----------



## EI

MattMatt said:


> Empty Inside, if you continue to do to your husband what I think you intend to do to him I want you to please consider these very important steps:
> 
> A) Make sure your birth control methods are still effective!*
> B) Ensure you have a good supply of energy drinks and glucose for him and also for you!
> 
> * I just recalled I knew of someone close to your age who was sure she could not get pregnant at that age. Fine, strapping son she gave birth to!


Well, thank you for the encouragement! It's already done! I have always been a believer in make-up sex! I just think the making up is so much nicer after a little post coital bliss! I haven't been able to use my powers of persuasion with him in quite some time.... up until now! 

As far as the birth control, we figured that out after number 5 and H joined the V-club! LOL

I hadn't thought about the energy drinks (great idea, BTW) but I have stocked up on Sangria and candles! 

One more thing...... Hubby rocked my world!


----------



## morituri

EI,

What is forgiveness?

For a great many people, it means amnesty for the offender and of the consequences that would befall him/her. The problem with this definition is that it makes the offender the beneficiary while the offended getting nothing in return.

But to others, myself included, forgiveness means to accept - not condone - that what was done cannot be undone and to make peace with it, NOT for the benefit of the offender but for the benefit of the offended. This type of forgiveness does not remove the consequences that would befall the offender.

People who subscribe to the former definition of forgiveness are unable to achieve it because it is an emotionally daunting task. It is also dependent on the offender showing true remorse to the offended for his/her transgression(s) which may or may not be present or ever will be.

But those of us who subscribe to the latter definition, forgiveness is an acknowledgement that no matter what the outcome of the situation with the offender is, that in order for us to move on with our lives is to *make the decision that anger and bitterness are the toxic twins that will forever follow us and poison our lives IF we consciously allow them to. Here, forgiveness is a conscious choice for the benefit of the offended, not the offender.*

I divorced my wife not because I could not forgive her for her affair nor because I no longer loved her, but because at the time it was necessary for me to do so in order to emotionally and psychologically heal myself. And yes, I did forgive her because I subscribe to the latter definition of forgiveness.

Please consider talking with your husband about what I've said. Hopefully he will be intrigued enough to explore this definition of forgiveness and eventually embrace it, for his benefit as well as yours.


----------



## MattMatt

Empty Inside, I am tearing up, now.

Please, both of you, stay with it. I wish you both the best for your future together.

Don't let each other down. Because if either of you did, I feel certain I would cry.

I hope you both stick around for a while.

I am sure you'll be able to offer advice and support to other people who come here in pain, suffering and in need of help.


----------



## MattMatt

morituri said:


> EI,
> 
> What is forgiveness?
> 
> For a great many people, it means amnesty for the offender and of the consequences that would befall him/her. The problem with this definition is that it makes the offender the beneficiary while the offended getting nothing in return.
> 
> But to others, myself included, forgiveness means to accept - not condone - that what was done cannot be undone and to make peace with it, NOT for the benefit of the offender but for the benefit of the offended. This type of forgiveness does not remove the consequences that would befall the offender.
> 
> People who subscribe to the former definition of forgiveness are unable to achieve it because it is an emotionally daunting task. It is also dependent on the offender showing true remorse to the offended for his/her transgression(s) which may or may not be present or ever will be.
> 
> But those of us who subscribe to the latter definition, forgiveness is an acknowledgement that no matter what the outcome of the situation with the offender is, that in order for us to move on with our lives is to *make the decision that anger and bitterness are the toxic twins that will forever follow us and poison our lives IF we consciously allow them to. Here, forgiveness is a conscious choice for the benefit of the offended, not the offender.*
> 
> I divorced my wife not because I could not forgive her for her affair nor because I no longer loved her, but because at the time it was necessary for me to do so in order to emotionally and psychologically heal myself. And yes, I did forgive her because I subscribe to the latter definition of forgiveness.
> 
> Please consider talking with your husband about what I've said. Hopefully he will be intrigued enough to explore this definition of forgiveness and eventually embrace it, for his benefit as well as yours.


:iagree:


----------



## Jibril

Empty Inside said:


> Thank you so much! H and I have appreciated your comments. They haven't leaned to one extreme or another. But, they have encouraged both of us. It seems like so many here want to pit my H and I against each other and I don't think most are understanding that he and I are working and hoping for the same goal. We just aren't taking anything for granted. We know that there is lots of hard work to do. *If I appear to be defensive it is because I feel the constant need to defend myself*. He and I aren't telling two different versions of the same story. We're telling the same story. It's hard for me to understand why complete strangers appear to be more bitter and resentful towards me than my H is.
> 
> Anyway, thank you, again. Your encouragement does help both of us and the personal attacks from some of the others, in fact, does hurt. Not too much.... but a little!


No one is trying to pit you against one another, I don't think. 

I'll speak for myself for the most part, but I'd like to see Betrayed1 work on himself and makes sure he heals, all the while establishing appropriate boundaries within the marriage, assuming he still wants to save it.

I want _you_ to show something that actually resembles remorse. Forgive my bluntness, but I just don't see it yet. You state that you need to defend yourself. I have noticed this in _all_ of your posts - deflection, defense, excuses. There isn't a single lengthy post of yours that doesn't dump blame of the affair onto your husbands lap. 

Why do you feel entitled to defend yourself? To deflect blame? Defense, putting up walls, blaming others for their choices, etc., that's what cheaters do. I don't mean to say you should posting groveling and demeaning diatribes about yourself, but frankly, your need to defend yourself suggests to me that you're still hiding from something, or that you're not prepared to face yourself and what you've done.

_*You had an affair*_. Regardless of the state of your marriage prior to your affair, you had _absolutely no right_ to do what you did. You were in the wrong when you took matters into your own hands, and forsook the oath you made to your husband. You were wrong to establish an emotional and sexual bond with someone other than your sworn lover and partner. You were wrong for _excluding_ your husband from your life, and giving his place to another man. _You. Were. Wrong_.

Moritori is right in stating that we at TAM do not know what is going on in your lives outside of these forums, and that we should be open minded. 

I am open minded. 

I want to see Betrayed1 heal. I want to see him become a better husband. I want to see you _take responsibility_ for your poor choices, and work on helping Betrayed heal. I want to see you work on the marriage. Ultimately, I want to see you both end up happy. _*Everything*_ hinges on you, and how you handle the healing process. If you falter in _anything_ - strengthening the marriage, healing your husband's heart and confidence, and exploring your faults and becoming a better person and wife, you will *not* be able to save the marriage. As I said, _you_ need to do this. No one here will let you off easy because your feelings are hurt. You have a _lot_ of work to do if you want to fix what you broke, and I can assure you that nothing we say here will make you feel as bad as how you're husband's feeling _right now_.

He's taken the initiative, and is giving you what you want. (prematurely, I think, but never-mind that now). He is giving you a warm and inviting marriage to come back to. He's trying to fix what he himself broke. Yes, you _should_ be humbled. Yes, you _should_ be grateful. Your husband _is_ working on the marriage, so if you truly want to make this work, you will need to pull your own weight.


----------



## EI

morituri said:


> EI,
> 
> What is forgiveness?
> 
> For a great many people, it means amnesty for the offender and of the consequences that would befall him/her. The problem with this definition is that it makes the offender the beneficiary while the offended getting nothing in return.
> 
> But to others, myself included, forgiveness means to accept - not condone - that what was done cannot be undone and to make peace with it, NOT for the benefit of the offender but for the benefit of the offended. This type of forgiveness does not remove the consequences that would befall the offender.
> 
> People who subscribe to the former definition of forgiveness are unable to achieve it because it is an emotionally daunting task. It is also dependent on the offender showing true remorse to the offended for his/her transgression(s) which may or may not be present or ever will be.
> 
> But those of us who subscribe to the latter definition, forgiveness is an acknowledgement that no matter what the outcome of the situation with the offender is, that in order for us to move on with our lives is to *make the decision that anger and bitterness are the toxic twins that will forever follow us and poison our lives IF we consciously allow them to. Here, forgiveness is a conscious choice for the benefit of the offended, not the offender.*
> 
> I divorced my wife not because I could not forgive her for her affair nor because I no longer loved her, but because at the time it was necessary for me to do so in order to emotionally and psychologically heal myself. And yes, I did forgive her because I subscribe to the latter definition of forgiveness.
> 
> Please consider talking with your husband about what I've said. Hopefully he will be intrigued enough to explore this definition of forgiveness and eventually embrace it, for his benefit as well as yours.


Thank you so much for all of your advice, words of wisdom and encouragement. I know that you have followed our story since the beginning. You didn't give me a free pass. Truth is... I wasn't looking for one. I had read the boards for quite some time before my first post. I knew what to expect. But, my heart had to catch up to what my head was already telling me. I tend to run on emotions rather than logic. Our marriage had really been through the ringer for several years. But, we had had many, many great years before that. My husband's response to this situation has been so incredible. He has always been a "do-the-right-thing" kind of guy. But, a woman needs a man who chooses to be with her because he can't imagine life without her, not because it's the right thing to do. Though it makes some of the TAM members crazy when I say this, he has shown me more genuine love, care and protection in the last few weeks than he ever has in our 30+ years together. Not out of a moral obligation, but truly from his heart. He really is a new man and I can't help but to be deliriously happy right now. We were grocery shopping tonight and as we were walking through the aisles, kissing and holding hands (H was never comfortable with PDAs) I said that I felt like newlyweds and he agreed. Honestly, I don't think it was that good when we were newlyweds. 

People keep thinking that I'm not showing true remorse. Nothing could be further from the truth. I just find it hard to dwell in all of the negative emotions of the past 16 months. I am not thinking about the OM, I am not having to struggle to push thoughts and memories away. If I have them, they are fleeting and I just think about something else. Anything else. If my H needs to talk, cry, ask questions, then we do that together. I'm feeling happy and blessed right now and I just want to live in this moment for as long as I can. I hope that I'm making sense. I think it takes a very strong man to do what he is doing and for that I am so grateful, so blessed and so happy. Now, some will say that it's too soon and others will say "what took so long." H & I are just following our hearts right now. 

Thank you for sharing the information on forgiveness. He and I have forgiven one another. Now, we are just trying to help one another heal. Today was a really good day.... I hope that it just keeps getting better!


----------



## EI

MattMatt said:


> Empty Inside, I am tearing up, now.
> 
> Please, both of you, stay with it. I wish you both the best for your future together.
> 
> Don't let each other down. Because if either of you did, I feel certain I would cry.
> 
> I hope you both stick around for a while.
> 
> I am sure you'll be able to offer advice and support to other people who come here in pain, suffering and in need of help.


Thank you, MattMatt, I'm going to spend the rest of my life making this up to him. I know that everyday can't possibly be as good as this day was. But, I know that he and I will never take one another for granted again.


----------



## aug

On June 11th:


Empty Inside said:


> In my loneliness,* I reached out to an old love from my teen years.* It sounds so stupid and cliche. My AP was divorced and after talking/texting for a few weeks we started an affair. *I fell head over heels in love.... not just lust or infatuation.... love. * The physical intimacy has always been lacking in my relationship with my husband.


on June 19:


Empty Inside said:


> People keep thinking that I'm not showing true remorse. Nothing could be further from the truth. I just find it hard to dwell in all of the negative emotions of the past *16 months*. * I am not thinking about the OM, I am not having to struggle to push thoughts and memories away.* If I have them, they are fleeting and I just think about something else. Anything else.



That's impressive -- how love and a 16 month LTA can be so quickly fleeted away.


----------



## Badblood

morituri said:


> How are all these comments helpful to their attempts at R? Granted that there are those of us for whom a PA is a deal breaker but since both have chosen to R, why foster toxic anger and bitterness in their hearts?


Mori, neither of them has made any commitment to R. They both are considering it, at times , and at other times they don't think it is possible. This isn't some kind of PollyAnna world. they have to face very harsh and very real truths about themselves and each other. What isn't helpful, is soft-peddling their problems.


----------



## Badblood

Empty Inside said:


> I don't have a lot of time right now, but I just wanted to make a quick post. We have had so many ups and downs for the last 3 1/2 weeks. Even yesterday we were discussing a possible separation. But, the absolute pure selfless love that my H has shown for me throughout this, when he is in so much of his own pain, has made me feel like the most loved, cherished, desired and adored woman on the planet. He has been carefully playing a balancing act of a man in need of healing and man who needs to protect and heal his wife. Even if the wife is the one who caused him the pain. Many of you, who are hurting yourself from betrayals, have almost seemed to want him to exact some kind of vigilante justice. My H was never intentionally unkind to me, never a bad person, he simply went from being a quiet, reserved man to a completely 100% shut down man. My heart ached for so long. Loneliness and lack of emotional and physical intimacy has destroyed many marriages. I did communicate my needs. But, he was more guarded than Ft. Knox. That wasn't from anything that had happened in our marriage but from long held scars from childhood. The, apparent, lack of remorse on my part that so many of you were infuriated about in my initial posts was my way of guarding my heart from opening back up to a man who had emotionally abandoned me a long time ago.
> 
> The man that I'm married to today has rediscovered all of the wonderful qualities of the barely just legal age boy that I married 28 years ago, but he is so filled with emotions and the capacity to express his love right now that he bears little resemblance to him in any other way. I've changed, too. I'm not sure why we had to go through all that we did to get to where we are. But, I am very, very grateful. I'm scared, too. I'm afraid that this is all just some fantasy that can't last. I hope it does! Now, it's my turn to help him heal and I'm really excited about every new moment that we get to spend together.


More attempts at justification. You still aren't showing remorse, and you still are laying the major share of the blame on Betrayed1. What about your share? How will you prove YOUR love? What can YOU do to show you won't cheat again? I'm not saying this to bash you, but your words are cheap, what about your actions? The 27 years of faithfulness count for absolutely nothing after what you have done to your husband. If you would start showing remorse and respect and understanding for your husband, we would all be much more supportive. I, for one, WANT you both to succeed, but that cannot happen until you change your mindset from victim to perpetrator and begin to realize how horrible you have been. Own your sh*t, EI.


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## Badblood

I would suggest that you both visit the "Marriage Builders", website. they have a proven track record for rebuilding good, honest marriages out of the wreckage of infidelity. The Harley's have helped a lot of folks, and can help you. Two things: 1. Betrayed1, do not blame the OM or take the blame for the affair or lack of sex. Blaming the OM , lets you wife avoid her responsibility for her actions, and hinders your healing, and the sexual issues are not your fault. 2. Empty inside, your avoiding thinking about the past makes it more likely you will repeat it. Until you own your actions and understand the causes of them, you are in danger of failing.


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## Badblood

BOTH of you guys are doing a LOT of good things. EI, your writing a letter of NC to the OM was a very good thing. Did your husband read it , too? Betrayed1, you are taking responsibility for your part in the marriage going bad, but be careful and not take too much of the blame and let your wife off the hook for her actions. The one thing, BOTH of you are doing is rug-sweeping, and that is very bad. Right now you are "acting like newlyweds", this is called hysterical bonding and is a phase, but it will pass and your issues will still be there. In order for this euphoria to continue, you both down-play each others areas of responsibility, and are not facing the these issues head on. If you cannot face your demons, where does that leave you? Repeating the same destructive behavior. Counseling is important, yes, but do this.....make some time each day to discus your marital issues honestly and privately, don't evade, or blame the other, or ignore a problem, and always act together to mend them. Also very important, make time, EACH DAY to do something FUN, together.


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## warlock07

EI, would you advise a woman who is physically abused by her H to go back into the relationship ? Emotional and the physical infidelity for 17 months(?) is abuse of the highest order. Your H shouldn't R unless he has a very good reason to. That is what we at TAM are doing here. Ensuring that he does not have a false R with a half remorseful wife who has no other option. If making TAM a villain helps your R, so be it.

Hopefully you did not send OM anymore mails behind your H back. Just remember that you were capable of deceit for 17 months. You were weak if not evil. You shouldn't be offended if betrayed1 trust in you take time. Good luck


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## B1

bandit.45 said:


> There is a big DENIAL dam on this river....
> 
> Both of these people are rugsweeping and playing house, but the pressure is going to build and build unless they both come out of the fog. If they don't deal with the emotional disconnect that destroyed their relationship and face up to the wife's betrayal, that dam is going to break soon and the ensuing flood of animosity and hatred will destroy everything.
> 
> Anybody remember what this same rugsweeping did to Struggling4Ever?


I dont think that's what we are doing, I am new at this so I could be wrong.

We had a good moment, a good hour yesterday at the grocery. After we got home we settled in and started talking again, I asked more questions, we confronted more issues. I got upset, mad, hurt and was back on the roller coaster. We talk a lot, I mean a lot, what you see here is only 10% of the communication that we have. An hour doesn't go by without interaction. My wife euphoria is, I believe, strictly based on the fact that she finally realizes, I love her, I really love her...she is very happy about that becuase she was convinced I did not. 

I still worry about the remorse part too, I worry about what else is coming, what other hurts are there, what else do we face..each day in many ways is new and uncharted territory for me, and I guess her too.


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## mahike

EI I am glad things are going well as far your talking things out. When your husband does ask a question make sure you answer it fully and honsetly. 

My wife has kept things or only give partial answers to some of my questions. She says to spare me more hurt, which maybe true but also it spares her from looking even worse.

Trust me it hurts more to reestablish trust if things trickle out. Be open and honest and he may ask the questions more then one time. His thougts and emotions are all over the place.


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## Complexity

Jibril said:


> I'll admit that, despite my penchant for divorce, I good reconciliation _always_ warms my heart. It makes me feel human, and gives me a bit of hope.
> 
> That being said, I feel that Empty Inside is being far too positive - and it comes of as facetious. I get the impression that she's putting on a front, and she's telling everyone what she thinks they want to hear, rather than working on improving herself as a wife and a human being. That's how I read her posts, at least.
> 
> It's great that Betrayed1 is addressing his attitudes and flaws with respect to his marriage. I get a strong sense that he is trying to improve himself.
> 
> I just don't get that from Empty Inside's posts at all. She says she's changed... but how? Betrayed is giving her all of the attention she could ever have wanted, he's improving himself and working hard to save the marriage. But _she_ should be working on the marriage. Looking back at her latest post, I still see entitlement and excuses.


Jibril, as always I appreciate your posts and insights. However, I don't understand what people want from emptyinside and her Husband? I get that people want her to show remorse, but at the same time, isn't that up to her husband to decide whether she's exhibiting it or not? Isn't it abundantly clear from the numerous reconciliation threads we see, that the WS naturally shows signs of remorse _over time_? Additionally doesn't their new romance mirror the "hysterical bonding" that people refer to on here? Moreover, why should they take on this dreary demeanour about their reconciliation? Wouldn't that be completely counter-productive for a marriage as fragile as theirs? It's as emptyinside rightly put it, there's a difference between giving them a reality check and people purposely trying to pit them against each other.

Dissecting her posts and repeatedly reminding her that she had an affair....what does that accomplish exactly? That has been addressed numerous times in their threads and she's repeatedly stated that the state of the marriage did not justify the affair. People however choose to ignore this and textually lynch her for their own pleasure. They know each other more than we do and interact in ways we do not see, as Mori said. Only they can tell whether their reconciliation is going in the right track and cynically putting down their new found happiness doesn't help at all.


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## morituri

Badblood said:


> Mori, neither of them has made any commitment to R. They both are considering it, at times , and at other times they don't think it is possible.


I beg to differ. From their comments it appears that they already are committed to work on R. The emotional roller coaster and hysterical bonding is very typical. How they handle things from now on will determine if they make it or not. Therapy for BOTH is a must.



> This isn't some kind of PollyAnna world.


Now you're being condescending. Like you, I've had my share of devastating life experiences and am well aware of the obvious.



> they have to face very harsh and very real truths about themselves and each other. What isn't helpful, is soft-peddling their problems.


I agree and from their comments, I see this is happening. What I worry is that the changes they are making may not be for the right reasons. Changes done for another person's sake do not become permanent. Both have to be committed to their individual changes not for the sake of the other but for their own sake.


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## warlock07

Deciding to R too soon after the A isn't good either. The BS should take time and process what happened before diving into R


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## cpacan

morituri said:


> I agree and from their comments, I see this is happening. What I worry is that the changes they are making may not be for the right reasons. Changes done for another person's sake do not become permanent. Both have to be committed to their individual changes not for the sake of the other but for their own sake.


And this is why people point out that something is missing in WS posts. She keeps writing "I take responsibility, but..."

By that, I fear, she doesn't acknowledge the need for HER to change anything in her personality and fundamental beliefs. And that is why the likelyhood of R can be questioned.


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## Fvstringpicker

BigLiam said:


> 40th anniversary of the release of "Deliverance" this month, I think.


Just so ya'll aknow what kinda hick I am, Rabun County Georgia, where most of the movie was filmed, is part of my stomping ground. I personally know Billy Redden who played Lonnie (banjo boy) and spent a lot of time fly fishing the Chattooga river.
But I'z tawkin about gettin lost in dim swamps and bayous. Just tinking bout it don gave me a hankering for an alligator steak, some greens and more of dat cornbread. 
So, laissez les bon temps rouler and ya'll come on down to visit, next chance ya get.


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## Fvstringpicker

When she, or anybody else has an affair, they have justified it in the minds. Human nature is such that a person justifies such decisions before they take action. If she hadn't have personally cleared the action, she wouldn't have done it. She, and everybody else, will only slowly let go of that justification (or rationalization if you choose) to eventually realize it may have been a mistake. She will only truly be remorseful when she realizes what she may have lost, has time to evaluate the damage done, and the pain and work required to get back to even.
The same hold true of Betrayed. He will/has seen and personally experienced the result of ignoring the wants and needs of his woman. If it hadn't of happened like it did, chances are he'd still be on that same road. To borrow and edit the words of a TJ Sheppard song.

" Sometime after dinner, she's sitting at the dresser.
You walk in and ignore her while she's brushing her hair.
She tells you that she needs you. She tells you that she wants you. But she's the same old girl you married, and you ain't got time the spare."

If I'm a little over the top, sue me.


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## Jibril

Complexity said:


> Jibril, as always I appreciate your posts and insights. However, I don't understand what people want from emptyinside and her Husband? I get that people want her to show remorse, but at the same time, isn't that up to her husband to decide whether she's exhibiting it or not? Isn't it abundantly clear from the numerous reconciliation threads we see, that the WS naturally shows signs of remorse _over time_? Additionally doesn't their new romance mirror the "hysterical bonding" that people refer to on here? Moreover, why should they take on this dreary demeanour about their reconciliation? Wouldn't that be completely counter-productive for a marriage as fragile as theirs? It's as emptyinside rightly put it, there's a difference between giving them a reality check and people purposely trying to pit them against each other.
> 
> Dissecting her posts and repeatedly reminding her that she had an affair....what does that accomplish exactly? That has been addressed numerous times in their threads and she's repeatedly stated that the state of the marriage did not justify the affair. People however choose to ignore this and textually lynch her for their own pleasure. They know each other more than we do and interact in ways we do not see, as Mori said. Only they can tell whether their reconciliation is going in the right track and cynically putting down their new found happiness doesn't help at all.


I _do_ agree with your points. However, I feel that it's important to pick apart what both Betrayed and Empty are posting, simply because we are trying to give them advice. Maybe I _am_ reading too much between the lines, but I feel that we can't help them if we simply pat them on the back wish them the best of luck. 

Some of the posts have been a bit negative, sure. My own issue, as I've already stated, stems from her constantly bringing up the poor conditions of her marriage. She says it's not a justification, yet she insists on raising the matter up at every opportunity. Maybe it's not a justification, but she is certainly using this as a defense. 

However, I agree with your post. I'll probably ease off this thread for a bit, and see how Betrayed and Empty work on things. Nothing any poster or myself state will make Empty realize her wrongdoings any faster. I've already made my point a few times in this thread, and repeating myself won't help. I can only assume Betrayed and Empty have taken it to heart. 

Just wait and see, I guess.


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## Deejo

Very, very, well said.




Complexity said:


> Jibril, as always I appreciate your posts and insights. However, I don't understand what people want from emptyinside and her Husband? I get that people want her to show remorse, but at the same time, isn't that up to her husband to decide whether she's exhibiting it or not? Isn't it abundantly clear from the numerous reconciliation threads we see, that the WS naturally shows signs of remorse _over time_? Additionally doesn't their new romance mirror the "hysterical bonding" that people refer to on here? Moreover, why should they take on this dreary demeanour about their reconciliation? Wouldn't that be completely counter-productive for a marriage as fragile as theirs? It's as emptyinside rightly put it, there's a difference between giving them a reality check and people purposely trying to pit them against each other.
> 
> Dissecting her posts and repeatedly reminding her that she had an affair....what does that accomplish exactly? That has been addressed numerous times in their threads and she's repeatedly stated that the state of the marriage did not justify the affair. People however choose to ignore this and textually lynch her for their own pleasure. They know each other more than we do and interact in ways we do not see, as Mori said. Only they can tell whether their reconciliation is going in the right track and cynically putting down their new found happiness doesn't help at all.


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## Zanna

EI, this is a great book for helping you to understand what your H might be going through right now and I'd recommend picking up a copy.

It's an easy read. I read it in one night.

The book basically covers the following:

*How to avoid the potholes that doom marriages after affairs
*Critical guidelines for the first hours after discovery
*15 essential steps for repair after betrayal
*Skills to cope with your partner's obsessions and "triggers"
*Ways to undo the damage from your lies
*The keys to avoid prolonging your spouse's agony (and yours)
*The difference between helpful and harmful apologies
*How to rebuild your broken life, relationships, and integrity

Amazon.com: How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair: A Compact Manual for the Unfaithful: Linda J. MacDonald: Books


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## BigLiam

Empty Inside said:


> Big Liam, this is the first comment that you've made that I agree with 100%!


Well, go back and read the others, again. I am sure, in time, you will appreciate my great wisdom:toast::banhim:


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## BigLiam

Fvstringpicker said:


> Just so ya'll aknow what kinda hick I am, Rabun County Georgia, where most of the movie was filmed, is part of my stomping ground. I personally know Billy Redden who played Lonnie (banjo boy) and spent a lot of time fly fishing the Chattooga river.
> But I'z tawkin about gettin lost in dim swamps and bayous. Just tinking bout it don gave me a hankering for an alligator steak, some greens and more of dat cornbread.
> So, laissez les bon temps rouler and ya'll come on down to visit, next chance ya get.


Excellent. I love that movie and the kid who played the banjo boy was excellent.
Them Delta women think the world of me.


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## BigLiam

If we agree that the condition of the marriage does not justify the affair, why is it ever even mentioned? 
If somoen says that they know the affair was not justified, then, in the next breath goes on to describe all her husband's deficiencies in the romance area, doesn't it follow that she feels that the affair was due to his failures?
I understabd the difference between reasons and justifications.But, and perhaps I missed this, when EI mentions the reasons, it seems they are always pertaining to her husband.
Has she mentioned her own contribution to the demise of the marriage pre-affair?HAsshe mentioned anything in her past which led her to have such poor boundaries and the ability to lie so easily?
Betrayed is in the typical depleted, mea culpa state that many BSs are in this close to discovery. I wonder if he has lost perspective on his wife's contributions to the Pre-affair state of the marriage. I find it hard to beleive that he shut down sexually for no reason relating to her, unless it was strictly low T.
But, i wonder if the shutdown predates the low T and was in response to some deficiency in his wife.
After all, if she was capable of having a long term affair, she must be lacking in empathy, communication and problem solving skills, and integrity. These deficiency do not an ideal mate make.
I think we sometimes, (and this includes the BS) simply accept the representations re the responsibility for the pre A state of the marriage with little real examination.
It strikes me that it is just too simple to say that the marriage was bad strictly due to Betrayed's having shut down. Why did he shut down in the first place?
I shut down toward my wife, too. But, only after she was so abusive I could no longer feel safe being vulnerable to her.


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## B1

God, what a hard hard day it was today. From beginning to now. Yes, today I cried like I did when it first happened...she held me for a better part of it. Sorry I am not stronger, but it just flat out hurts. I glass of wine does help ease my nerves and calm me down.
I am not a drinker at all, so it only takes a little bit to calm me. 

Today I went through it all, angry, sad, caring, angry and after getting home it was just pure pain. She knows what shes done, but she is still grieving her affair. I tend to help her as much or more than she helps me. I know I have anger stages to go through yet, I can feel it welling up in me on my drive to and from work. anger towards the OM and anger towards my wife...anger towards myself for letting my marriage crumble before the A. My wife has so much more to go through also.

I have a friend I am talking to tomorrow who has been in my shoes and had a successful R, I can't wait. Then counseling Friday. God, I now realize the long and difficult journey I have ahead of me. Can I do this? can she do this? can we do this? It seems so overwhelming right now. I realize that we will have good days and really bad days, and probably good and bad months. This isn't easy and I'm not sure if I can do it. I have gone through us splitting up in my mind, getting apartments etc. I can do that, I can if I have to. I may cry but I am not weak, I may seem to sulk but that doesn't mean I cannot do what must be done. I still have hope but it's kicked me around today for sure.


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## BigLiam

Completely out of line for her to be grieving her affair in front of you or even mentioning grieving over it. That is just way insensitive.
Just re-read "After the Affair" and Springs talks about how inappropriate it is for a cheater to demonstrate grief over the loss of the affair partner. 
It's okay that she feels this, I guess. But, she has to suck it up and keep that crap to herself.
You've been hurt enough. SHe needs to stop that.


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## aug

BigLiam said:


> Completely out of line for her to be grieving her affair in front of you or even mentioning grieving over it. That is just way insensitive.
> Just re-read "After the Affair" and Springs talks about how inappropriate it is for a cheater to demonstrate grief over the loss of the affair partner.
> It's okay that she feels this, I guess. But, she has to suck it up and keep that crap to herself.
> You've been hurt enough. SHe needs to stop that.



:iagree:

It's hard to see remorse if she's grieving over her lover.


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## Complexity

Jibril said:


> I _do_ agree with your points. However, I feel that it's important to pick apart what both Betrayed and Empty are posting, simply because we are trying to give them advice. Maybe I _am_ reading too much between the lines, but I feel that we can't help them if we simply pat them on the back wish them the best of luck.
> 
> Some of the posts have been a bit negative, sure. My own issue, as I've already stated, stems from her constantly bringing up the poor conditions of her marriage. She says it's not a justification, yet she insists on raising the matter up at every opportunity. Maybe it's not a justification, but she is certainly using this as a defense.
> 
> However, I agree with your post. I'll probably ease off this thread for a bit, and see how Betrayed and Empty work on things. Nothing any poster or myself state will make Empty realize her wrongdoings any faster. I've already made my point a few times in this thread, and repeating myself won't help. I can only assume Betrayed and Empty have taken it to heart.
> 
> Just wait and see, I guess.


I can see your points and my post wasn't directed at you personally. I believe there's a fine line between blame shifting and justification. I think it's wholly acceptable to say factors A.B,C created conditions that lead up to the affair but like you, I do not believe that an affair can be justified on any grounds. As I mentioned in my earlier post, I'm not naive or overly optimistic about their situation. This will take years to rebuild and they will run into numerous hiccups along the way. I just hope they don't get driven away from this site because of the constant negative feedback they get.


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## Complexity

betrayed1 said:


> God, what a hard hard day it was today. From beginning to now. Yes, today I cried like I did when it first happened...she held me for a better part of it. Sorry I am not stronger, but it just flat out hurts. I glass of wine does help ease my nerves and calm me down.
> I am not a drinker at all, so it only takes a little bit to calm me.
> 
> Today I went through it all, angry, sad, caring, angry and after getting home it was just pure pain. She knows what shes done, but she is still grieving her affair. I tend to help her as much or more than she helps me. I know I have anger stages to go through yet, I can feel it welling up in me on my drive to and from work. anger towards the OM and anger towards my wife...anger towards myself for letting my marriage crumble before the A. My wife has so much more to go through also.
> 
> I have a friend I am talking to tomorrow who has been in my shoes and had a successful R, I can't wait. Then counseling Friday. God, I now realize the long and difficult journey I have ahead of me. Can I do this? can she do this? can we do this? It seems so overwhelming right now. I realize that we will have good days and really bad days, and probably good and bad months. This isn't easy and I'm not sure if I can do it. I have gone through us splitting up in my mind, getting apartments etc. I can do that, I can if I have to. I may cry but I am not weak, I may seem to sulk but that doesn't mean I cannot do what must be done. I still have hope but it's kicked me around today for sure.


She's going through withdrawals because she had/has an emotional connection to the other man. Apparently it's a common feature when one comes out of an affair. The affair partner is essentially her drug. He was the source of her high and now that they're no longer in contact, the mind naturally craves for those highs again. Bring this up with the marriage counsellor, I'm sure he can give you better insight into this.


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## BigLiam

Complexity said:


> She's going through withdrawals because she had/has an emotional connection to the other man. Apparently it's a common feature when one comes out of an affair. The affair partner is essentially her drug. He was the source of her high and now that they're no longer in contact, the mind naturally craves for those highs again. Bring this up with the marriage counsellor, I'm sure he can give you better insight into this.


This is probably true. But, she needs to suck it up and not subject you to her grieving.


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## Acabado

Withdrawal from the affair, the grieving process are well known and documented, flaunting it on your betrayed spouse is wrong and just plan cruel.


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## BigLiam

Acabado said:


> Withdrawal from the affair, the grieving process are well known and documented, flaunting it on your betrayed spouse is wrong and just plan cruel.



It does, however, give one some insight into the cheater's capacity for empathy.


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## Acabado

Pain is somehow narcissistic. Hard to swallow grieving AP is pain but it is, so they are more or less void of empathy. Once the process ends they will be ashamed not only for the betrayal but the bahavior in inmediate aftermath. Hopely.


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## EI

BigLiam said:


> Completely out of line for her to be grieving her affair in front of you or even mentioning grieving over it. That is just way insensitive.
> Just re-read "After the Affair" and Springs talks about how inappropriate it is for a cheater to demonstrate grief over the loss of the affair partner.
> It's okay that she feels this, I guess. But, she has to suck it up and keep that crap to herself.
> You've been hurt enough. SHe needs to stop that.


If you don't like long stories, then you might want to skip this one:

I am so tired of this..... No matter what I say or do.... it makes no difference, I am ripped to shreds. I have been told, repeatedly, that I have to have complete transparency with my husband. Answer ALL questions even if they require a tape measure (yes, someone on this site said that.) I was told that I was to answer questions even if they involved the depth of my feelings for the OM so that my H could make an informed decision about R. You know guys, I, too, have the SAME decision to make. I was told that for the rest of my life, I no longer have ANY rights in this marriage. I am simply supposed to spend the rest of my life making this up to him. For the life of me I have NO IDEA why anyone would remain in a marriage when they have no rights. So, if my H asks me a direct question about my feelings for the OM and I answer him, honestly, and he realizes that I am grieving (because I answered, honestly)..... well, really I have no idea what you all expect of me. Big Liam, you LOVE to keep telling my H that the Low T wasn't his fault. While that is true, his lack of kindness and compassion to me during that time was a choice HE made in order to push me away when he didn't have the answers as to why he lacked desire. So, out of his frustration, he made the choice to belittle and humiliate me. Using words like "fat, horny, B!tch" when I weighed about 100 lbs was on him..... NOT ME. When we took a trip with some friends to Gatlinberg on our 25th anniversary and he announced that he had a headache and he was asked "why," and he responded with "I didn't take my meds because she expects sex later," was on him... not me. On our honeymoon when I weighed exactly 104 lbs he told me that I couldn't wear the sexy little lingerie that I had received as a shower gift because of "my legs." Meaning the cellulite on my legs was just too offensive to him. He also questioned me as to why I hadn't gotten down to 95 lbs before the wedding, as promised. I responded that I didn't want to get in the same shape as I had in my senior year of high school when I "started" a diet at the weight of 104 lbs and finished it 3 months later at 78 lbs on the day I graduated. Unfortunately, I passed out on the bus one day due to dehydration, and I didn't have periods for 6 months.... all while trying to be "attractive enough" to get his approval. Phrases like, "It's only sex, is it really that important?" were meant to make me feel ashamed of expressing my needs. Unlike many of you, who seem to think intimacy is simply an unnecessary option, and that withholding it from your spouse is NOT JUSTIFICATION for an affair...... I am not ashamed to say that I'm a sexual being. I need, both, emotional and physical intimacy. But this is about sooooooo much more than sex. This is about the very heart of a woman. As Fvstringpicker stated on my thread, "If your spouse makes you feel like an undesirable slug, you'll prove them wrong." 

I have stated the facts, repeatedly, because I am repeatedly verbally attacked. So, I am just going to say it.... The reason that it appears that I am blaming my husband for my affair is because I do think that he bears a GREAT DEAL of the responsibility. Now, all of a sudden, after 31 years together, he has "found his emotions and he is no longer sexually inhibited." Ohhhhhhh, it wasn't that I wasn't attractive enough, or thin enough or desirable enough???? Now, he finds me beautiful, desirable, sexual and he can't keep his hands off of me. NOW, after 31 years...... WTF....???? Pardon me if I'm finding it all a little hard to swallow. Before you all lynch me with the diatribe about how I should have gotten a divorce, I am just going to say this..... when you can barely afford to live under one roof together, you sure as Hell can't afford to live under two. When it takes all you've got to physically raise a special needs child, who is 23 years old, bigger than me, cannot bear any weight on his legs and must be lifted several times throughout the day in and out of a wheelchair, have his diapers changed, be showered, dressed, groomed, fed, etc..... and you have 4 other able-bodied males in the house and you don't work outside of the home..... can you imagine how difficult it might be to do this all alone and working????? Our home is handicapped accessible, but many of you have suggested my H put me out of our home, pack my "things" in boxes or garbage bags and put them in the driveway, tell me to pick them up and then have me served with divorce papers. Do those "things" include our son? I would never ask my husband to leave his home that he works and pays for. But, I worked for the first 8 years of our marriage and contributed financially to the household. My parents put $100,000.00 equity into this house..... it's gone, now, mostly because of medical expenses, etc., but does none of that count? 

So, why do I want to R, now? I think, at this point, my H and I are trying to see if we can, because in spite of it all..... my H has many wonderful qualities, too, which I have been very truthful about. And, even though I get blasted every time I say this, in the last few weeks, he has been everything I ever hoped or dreamed he could be. He has been my rock throughout this. We had a wonderful day, yesterday, and it gave us, both, so much hope.... it was 31 years to the day of our very first date.... a blind date. I know, I cheated, the ultimate sin (according to TAM)...... Because I cheated, then the job of repairing our marriage is ALL ON ME.... I HAVE SO MUCH TO MAKE UP FOR (per TAM.) Well, you know what? I can't give any more than I'm giving right now. I am giving everything that I, honestly, have to give. I don't think that I can truly help him heal until I have done some healing of my own. He is only, just now, realizing the hurt that he inflicted upon me all of these years. I'm going to need some time of my own. I have been extremely careful with my words on this thread, up to now, out of my love and respect for him (yes, I do love and respect him.) Now, I know that you guys will have a field day with this one..... and will, like vultures, tear me to shreds. I don't really care any more because I won't be coming back on to see it. Some of you have been extremely helpful. I thank you for that. I can handle constructive criticism, that's why I posted our story. But, for those of you who do nothing more than spew your hateful venom I have nothing but pity for you. You are, obviously, deeply wounded. H and I are, too. I don't feel like this site is helping us. Yesterday, I posted about what a lovely day that we had just experienced. I thought that it was a positive sign for us. I knew that every day wouldn't be like that and that we had so much work ahead of us. But, you all ripped me apart for that, as well. I give.... H and I will still continue trying to repair our marriage. He may or may not post.... that's up to him.


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## BigLiam

If he said that stuff, I apologize. I had no idea he was so abusive about your desirability. WTF, why would he act like that. It is nuts.


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## BigLiam

My XW belittled me like that, too. I can understand what it does to you.

I really had no idea he was that extreme.


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## aug

Thanks for the additional info. It was helpful.


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## BigLiam

My first Xw conducted a series of affairs while I worked full time and did 95a% of the caring foe our disabled son(got three hernias as he became bigger and stronger) . Had to carry him everywhere for years(my arms were ripped)
Your H needs to figure out why he reacted so cruelly to your advances.

Myfirst wife woke me from a sound sleep one night when she had been out with a younger man. She went on and described his physique in detail. I still cannot fathom that degree of cruelty.


----------



## cabin fever

E.I. no one hates you, even if you feel like that. There are some FWW on here that are still posting, and were no different then you. 
Don't take it personally. When you only hear half the story its easy to get the wrong impression. 

You both have some heavy lifting to do. Reconcilling is hard, but if its what you BOTH want for the right reasons it makes it easier. 


Just remember its not easy, and you will both have good days, and bad days. 

sometimes you have to take a couple steps back before you can move forward. 

Keep posting. I think its a helpful, and probably more so in your situation, since both of you can read, think, and then reply. 

good luck to both of you.


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## Complexity

Betrayed, this is why I initially stressed you have to do alot of the heavy lifting to save your marriage. This affair is not like what we normally see on TAM hence the kneejerk reaction to deride and verbally abuse your wife. Many didn't bother to read through the lines because they assumed they heard it all before. There also appears to be a permeating black/white logic about people's circumstances lately.

I know that you take responsibility for the way your marriage disintegrated and I'm not going to start bashing you either. Just realise it's a miracle your wife hasn't completely checked out and you still have a chance to repair things. I think you should both get the therapy you need and temper your expectancy of your wife. This took 3 decades in the making and women are emotional beings. Feelings don't repair as quickly or as easily as physical trauma. Just remind yourselves of the good days you had and sober them with the challenges that will come ahead.


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## Badblood

BigLiam said:


> It does, however, give one some insight into the cheater's capacity for empathy.


Or, lack of it.


----------



## keko

BigLiam said:


> Myfirst wife woke me from a sound sleep one night when she had been out with a younger man. She went on and described his physique in detail. I still cannot fathom that degree of cruelty.


oh wow. Did you sleep after that?



Maybe I missed it but have you posted your story?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Badblood

Empty Inside said:


> If you don't like long stories, then you might want to skip this one:
> 
> I am so tired of this..... No matter what I say or do.... it makes no difference, I am ripped to shreds. I have been told, repeatedly, that I have to have complete transparency with my husband. Answer ALL questions even if they require a tape measure (yes, someone on this site said that.) I was told that I was to answer questions even if they involved the depth of my feelings for the OM so that my H could make an informed decision about R. You know guys, I, too, have the SAME decision to make. I was told that for the rest of my life, I no longer have ANY rights in this marriage. I am simply supposed to spend the rest of my life making this up to him. For the life of me I have NO IDEA why anyone would remain in a marriage when they have no rights. So, if my H asks me a direct question about my feelings for the OM and I answer him, honestly, and he realizes that I am grieving (because I answered, honestly)..... well, really I have no idea what you all expect of me. Big Liam, you LOVE to keep telling my H that the Low T wasn't his fault. While that is true, his lack of kindness and compassion to me during that time was a choice HE made in order to push me away when he didn't have the answers as to why he lacked desire. So, out of his frustration, he made the choice to belittle and humiliate me. Using words like "fat, horny, B!tch" when I weighed about 100 lbs was on him..... NOT ME. When we took a trip with some friends to Gatlinberg on our 25th anniversary and he announced that he had a headache and he was asked "why," and he responded with "I didn't take my meds because she expects sex later," was on him... not me. On our honeymoon when I weighed exactly 104 lbs he told me that I couldn't wear the sexy little lingerie that I had received as a shower gift because of "my legs." Meaning the cellulite on my legs was just too offensive to him. He also questioned me as to why I hadn't gotten down to 95 lbs before the wedding, as promised. I responded that I didn't want to get in the same shape as I had in my senior year of high school when I "started" a diet at the weight of 104 lbs and finished it 3 months later at 78 lbs on the day I graduated. Unfortunately, I passed out on the bus one day due to dehydration, and I didn't have periods for 6 months.... all while trying to be "attractive enough" to get his approval. Phrases like, "It's only sex, is it really that important?" were meant to make me feel ashamed of expressing my needs. Unlike many of you, who seem to think intimacy is simply an unnecessary option, and that withholding it from your spouse is NOT JUSTIFICATION for an affair...... I am not ashamed to say that I'm a sexual being. I need, both, emotional and physical intimacy. But this is about sooooooo much more than sex. This is about the very heart of a woman. As Fvstringpicker stated on my thread, "If your spouse makes you feel like an undesirable slug, you'll prove them wrong."
> 
> I have stated the facts, repeatedly, because I am repeatedly verbally attacked. So, I am just going to say it.... The reason that it appears that I am blaming my husband for my affair is because I do think that he bears a GREAT DEAL of the responsibility. Now, all of a sudden, after 31 years together, he has "found his emotions and he is no longer sexually inhibited." Ohhhhhhh, it wasn't that I wasn't attractive enough, or thin enough or desirable enough???? Now, he finds me beautiful, desirable, sexual and he can't keep his hands off of me. NOW, after 31 years...... WTF....???? Pardon me if I'm finding it all a little hard to swallow. Before you all lynch me with the diatribe about how I should have gotten a divorce, I am just going to say this..... when you can barely afford to live under one roof together, you sure as Hell can't afford to live under two. When it takes all you've got to physically raise a special needs child, who is 23 years old, bigger than me, cannot bear any weight on his legs and must be lifted several times throughout the day in and out of a wheelchair, have his diapers changed, be showered, dressed, groomed, fed, etc..... and you have 4 other able-bodied males in the house and you don't work outside of the home..... can you imagine how difficult it might be to do this all alone and working????? Our home is handicapped accessible, but many of you have suggested my H put me out of our home, pack my "things" in boxes or garbage bags and put them in the driveway, tell me to pick them up and then have me served with divorce papers. Do those "things" include our son? I would never ask my husband to leave his home that he works and pays for. But, I worked for the first 8 years of our marriage and contributed financially to the household. My parents put $100,000.00 equity into this house..... it's gone, now, mostly because of medical expenses, etc., but does none of that count?
> 
> So, why do I want to R, now? I think, at this point, my H and I are trying to see if we can, because in spite of it all..... my H has many wonderful qualities, too, which I have been very truthful about. And, even though I get blasted every time I say this, in the last few weeks, he has been everything I ever hoped or dreamed he could be. He has been my rock throughout this. We had a wonderful day, yesterday, and it gave us, both, so much hope.... it was 31 years to the day of our very first date.... a blind date. I know, I cheated, the ultimate sin (according to TAM)...... Because I cheated, then the job of repairing our marriage is ALL ON ME.... I HAVE SO MUCH TO MAKE UP FOR (per TAM.) Well, you know what? I can't give any more than I'm giving right now. I am giving everything that I, honestly, have to give. I don't think that I can truly help him heal until I have done some healing of my own. He is only, just now, realizing the hurt that he inflicted upon me all of these years. I'm going to need some time of my own. I have been extremely careful with my words on this thread, up to now, out of my love and respect for him (yes, I do love and respect him.) Now, I know that you guys will have a field day with this one..... and will, like vultures, tear me to shreds. I don't really care any more because I won't be coming back on to see it. Some of you have been extremely helpful. I thank you for that. I can handle constructive criticism, that's why I posted our story. But, for those of you who do nothing more than spew your hateful venom I have nothing but pity for you. You are, obviously, deeply wounded. H and I are, too. I don't feel like this site is helping us. Yesterday, I posted about what a lovely day that we had just experienced. I thought that it was a positive sign for us. I knew that every day wouldn't be like that and that we had so much work ahead of us. But, you all ripped me apart for that, as well. I give.... H and I will still continue trying to repair our marriage. He may or may not post.... that's up to him.


This is one of the most amazing examples of self-delusion, I've ever seen here, on TAM. Betrayed1 you wife IS going to cheat again, because she has NO remorse at all, and what is more, she feels that any cheating she does is YOUR fault and she is blameless. She has not, in all her posts, given even one example of true guilt and sorrow. I am truly sorry for you.


----------



## Complexity

Badblood said:


> This is one of the most amazing examples of self-delusion, I've ever seen here, on TAM. Betrayed1 you wife IS going to cheat again, because she has NO remorse at all, and what is more, she feels that any cheating she does is YOUR fault and she is blameless. She has not, in all her posts, given even one example of true guilt and sorrow. I am truly sorry for you.


Dude you must have the sympathy of a shark. After reading all of that, your conclusion is that she's self deluded? Are you actually serious BadBlood?


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## Badblood

Betrayed1. you are taking way too much of the blame. As long as you do this, your wife will keep heaping it on, until it will be your fault for everything. What I have been trying to do, is show your wife that in order for you to R and have a future, she has to Accept responsibility for her actions. whenever I do this, she says I'm bashing her, which is NOT the truth, but an excuse to further avoid blame. Once again, the affair was totally and completely HER FAULT and nobody elses. YOU BOTH are to blame for the sorry state of your marriage. I also think that the "Marriage Builders", site would do you both a lot of good. They will show you exactly what to do, and will guide your wife to true remorse and compassion. Good luck to you both.


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## Fvstringpicker

Empty I stated early on I know where you're coming from. I've been there and done that. Do what you need to do. You're the one that's got to live your life. If you an your old man can come to terms with what transpired, that's great. If you can't, the world will keep right on turning. Hey, and anyway you cut it, you proved something to yourself. If you'd been like me, you'd have a hell of lot more than one to explain and atone for.


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## morituri

*Forgiveness and Letting Go - How To Achieve It*

The ability to achieve forgiveness and let go of past hurts is one of the most critical challenges many of us face on the road to attaining personal peace and happiness.

While it certainly isn't easy, it is absolutely necessary for long-term mental and emotional heath. 

Forgiveness can be defined as the decision to let go of resentment, anger, and thoughts of revenge as a result of a real, or perceived offense, hurt, or wrongdoing against you.

Forgiving someone does not mean denying a person's responsibility for hurting you, nor does it mean minimizing, or justifying the act. It does mean willing to forgive someone without condoning or excusing what they did, and then letting it go.

According to Dr. Robert Enright, a professor of educational psychology at the University of Wisconsin and a pioneer in the scientific study of forgiveness - forgiveness is a choice. It is the process of uncovering and letting go of anger, while restoring hope and moving on with life. He writes:

"People, upon rationally determining that they have been unfairly treated, forgive when they willfully abandon resentment and related responses (to which they have a right) and endeavor to respond to the wrong doer based on the moral principle of beneficence, which may include compassion, unconditional worth, generosity and moral love (to which the wrong doer by nature of the hurtful act or acts, has no right.)"

In other words, while there is no question that we have the right to feel resentment and the desire to respond accordingly, we have the ability to make the choice not to. When we do, we refuse to play the role of the victim and we let go of the control and power that the offending person, or situation, has over us. We choose to not allow grudges, hurt or wrongdoings to define our lives.


*How can we attain forgiveness and letting go?*

*Begin by acknowledging what hurt or offended you.* While denying the hurtful offence may be the first thing you may want to do, it is best to admit that it happened. Reflect upon it; take note how you reacted, and what it has done to your health and well-being. Be able to articulate what was unacceptable about the situation.

*Look for a broader perspective on what took place*. Make the attempt to understand the other person. Was the offense deliberate, or merely mindless and insensitive? Perhaps the person had no idea they hurt you, or was suffering from something themselves. Did they do it out of selfishness, recklessness, or were there other unknown circumstances at play? Sometimes going through the process of trying to understand the situation sheds new light on the matter and may lessen the hurtful response. It is also possible that you may have been oversensitive at the time. Hurt feelings are invariably subjective. Perhaps you were having a bad day; perhaps they were.

If you happen to know the hurtful act was deliberate, vicious and intended to harm you, then you may have to 'reframe' the situation. Reframing is a technique whereby you change the conceptual or emotional viewpoint from which you experience an event and put it in a different context or frame of reference. For instance, there are those who do harm to others thinking it will alleviate their own pain and distress. They lash out regardless of whom they are hurting, or how. Your ability to sort through a hurtful occurrence and put it into a different "framework" will prepare you to begin the process of forgiveness and letting it go.


*Work through the emotions.* As well as acknowledging the event, acknowledge the anger, frustration and myriad emotions, but do not get stuck in them. Practice stress management techniques such as exercise, yoga, deep breathing, guided meditations, or anything else you find soothing and relaxing. Using cognitive strategies like writing in a journal, or talking to a wise friend or counselor, is also very beneficial.

In recent studies done on forgiveness coping strategies, it was found that men responded positively when it was presented as a challenge to them, and negatively when it involved emotion-focused coping. For women, however, it was found to be positively associated with emotion-focused coping and acceptance, and negatively associated with avoidance. Thus, based on these findings, if you're a man, it is more helpful to approach forgiveness as a challenge, or goal to accomplish. If you're a woman working on acceptance, understanding, and compassion may lead you there more successfully. 

*Commit towards letting go and moving on*. Remember first that the act of forgiving is more for your own benefit than anyone else's. Secondly, forgiveness and letting go take time, so be patient with yourself. Certainly, it can be difficult to separate what you feel emotionally with what makes sense to do logically. However, if you commit to putting your energies on focusing on the benefits of forgiveness and letting go, you can more easily move forward with your life.

Letting go can be defined as: "A combination of accepting, but not denying; living in the present and looking forward to the future without regret for the past, and a willingness to move on and beyond."

Researchers and scientists have been discovering the health benefits of attaining forgiveness. Their studies have shown that serious mental, emotional and physical consequences can result from holding on to grudges and bitterness. Consequences such as depression, anxiety and the feeling that your life lacks meaning and purpose, as well as the loss of valuable connectedness with family and friends become high prices to pay for holding on to resentment. 

*Get Professional Help If You Need It.* If you find it too difficult to forgive and let go on your own, especially if the offending acts have been traumatic, or are ongoing, then consider working through your feelings and deeper issues with a good therapist. It would be more than worth your while to gain the peace of mind you seek and to move forward with your life.

*The Benefits of Forgiveness and Letting Go*

Increased happiness and health with improved functioning of cardiovascular and nervous systems and less overall illnesses
Restored positive thoughts, feelings, behaviors and promotes overall psychological well being
Increased compassion, understanding and healing
Reduced stress, anxiety, depression and chronic pain
Lower risk of alcohol and substance abuse
Ability to function better in career, education, work place
Increases hope and optimism for the future
Ultimately, the act of forgiveness releases us from past hurts, memories and enslavement. Alternatively, to not forgive is to surrender oneself to the control of others and allow the present to be consumed by the past. If we choose not to forgive, we subject ourselves to the possibility of carrying anger, bitterness and resentment into future situations and relationships, as well as deprive ourselves of the peace of mind, health and happiness we deserve. 

In the end, the best revenge is a life well lived!


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## cpacan

This thread makes me very sad for several reasons and I will probably as a consequence not read much further in it.

Betrayed1: 
From what I have read from both your wife and you, you have treated your wife very bad during the years. No wonder your wife chose the nickname Empty Inside and felt emotionally abused for years. 
But it seems from what you both write that you have learned from your mistakes and are willing to make the changes. You do see your own shortcommings and have initiated a proces of changing yourself.
The question that remains answered is; is for you or for her you make these changes? Make sure it is for your own sake.
You can create some new habits and respond differently to the challenges you will face in the future. This way you will contribute to the transformation of your marriage. I wish you luck and happiness for the years to come.

Empty inside:
I won't bash you, no need for that. You describe your marriage and the difficulties in it in a very emotional way. I can actually feel the pain you experienced when I read about it.
You have learned yourself that there is one, and only one response in the universe that can make the pain go away... yes, you got it, having an affair. Escape from reality for a while and have a nice satisfying dose of dopamin to make the pain vanish in the fog.
So if your husband for some reason in the future mess up and yell at you or belittles you, you will have your response in place because you know of no other options than having an affair.
It will not be your fault, your husband made you do this, because you have no other option.
Maybe, and hopefully, in time, you will realize that you do have other options and choices for yourself, and that you are responsible for making the right choice. You must heal yourself in order to heal the marriage. Sadly, you can't see it at the moment, but for the sake of you both, I hope you will in time.
I wish you the best, I truly do.


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## iheartlife

iheartlife said:


> I ponder is whether my FWH had to do something more terrible to me than I ever did to him. Not to compare who was worse, but more that he had to balance it out psychologically in order not to resent me any more for the damage I did to our relationship before (I didn't do 100% of the damage, but I own up to well over half.) If your wife can wrap her head around that, maybe the two of you can find a path to forgive each other.


I posted this last week. It still holds true.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Racer

Complexity said:


> Dude you must have the sympathy of a shark. After reading all of that, your conclusion is that she's self deluded? Are you actually serious BadBlood?


Not necessarily... This is a problem with this sort of format. She was married 30 years. My wife and I have been together 20 years. Know what? My wife can, and used to, hold onto every single thing I did wrong over the entire relationship. In 20 years, that is a fairly extensive list... What she didn’t say or remember is those words were the abnormality and extremely rare. What she didn’t say was I was only cruel after she’d already verbally ripped me up and down and I was so angry, and I said those things to hurt her just as bad in a fit of petty retaliation.

So, we have no idea if that sort of treatment was ‘normal’ or if it’s the usual wayward fog of holding onto all the justifications to avoid the guilt of having the affair. So, like Badblood, I see a lot of excuses for her ‘why she shouldn’t feel that guilty’ and not much else. It is a sad and convincing story... All wayward stories follow that same line; “If he hadn’t of done this to me, it wouldn’t have pushed me into someone else’s arms.” Hers is no different, even if it is compelling. What I didn’t see in there is remorse for her actions. I saw pain and regret for the way he treated her and a lot of self-pity; That would make it ok right?:scratchhead:


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## morituri

Some folks here just don't seem to get it and keep on rehashing what has already been said on this thread by many of us over and over and over again. :slap:

EI has no obligation to any of us to show us her remorse. The only person she owes any remorse to is her husband. If B1 sees her remorseful behavior at home (something we cannot be a witness to), is satisfied with it and wants to do his best to R with her then that is all that matters.


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## cpacan

morituri said:


> Some folks here just don't seem to get it and keep on rehashing what has already been said on this thread by many of us over and over and over again. :slap:
> 
> EI has no obligation to any of us to show us her remorse. The only person she owes any remorse to is her husband. If B1 sees her remorseful behavior at home (something we cannot be a witness to), is satisfied with it and wants to do his best to R with her then that is all that matters.


I agree. Not quite sure if you referred to my post... I really don't care if EI shows remorse or not, I am just saying that unless you unlearn a pattern of yours, you are most likely to repeat it. 
And that is sad - especially if none of them are aware of this (which might be true due to DD is still very fresh in mind)


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## morituri

cpacan said:


> I am just saying that unless you unlearn a pattern of yours, you are most likely to repeat it.


The way to break those destructive patterns (for both of them) depends on:

1. Forgiveness like I've outlined in my comments in order to kill the anger and bitterness that resides in their hearts. This is not the type that people usually believe in and which is false to begin with.

2. Commitment to self-improvement which transcends everything, including their marriage.

Even if their marriage ends, they will both be winners for having done the above.


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## Fvstringpicker

I posted this on another thread but I think its appropriate here.


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## B1

In a 30 year relationship we both said mean things and we both said plenty of nice things too. Point is, you don't go that long without saying some nasty stuff and having some bad arguments.
Yes, I said some mean hurtful things over the 30 years, but those she mentioned are pretty much it. Beleive me, I have a list also, but I'm not here to post it just to say 30 years is a long time and
there are plenty of good and bad said in a span of 30 years.

Neeldess to say it's a bad day so far....


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## Zanna

I do think EI and her H are on the right track. It's still very early in R and she has sent the NC letter. That's a good start.

And they are connecting.

I think it's possible that when EI feels like she's in love with her H again, that his pain will hit her hard and she will realize how deeply she has hurt him. And then and only then will she begin to start to understand what her affair did to him. I believe sometimes it takes time for the WS to get it but when they get it, truly "get it", the flood gates of remorse will open.

I do understand why some posters are concerned for her H though. None of us want to see him go through the agony of a false recovery. I don't think anyone's intentions are to hurt or to shame. People are concerned with both parties in this situation. Unfortunately, infidelity leaves everyone involved broken and hurt and damaged which is why it's never a healthy solution to one's problems.

Wishing you both happiness and new and improved marriage.


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## warlock07

betrayed1 said:


> In a 30 year relationship we both said mean things and we both said plenty of nice things too. Point is, you don't go that long without saying some nasty stuff and having some bad arguments.
> Yes, I said some mean hurtful things over the 30 years, but those she mentioned are pretty much it. Beleive me, I have a list also, but I'm not here to post it just to say 30 years is a long time and
> there are plenty of good and bad said in a span of 30 years.
> 
> Neeldess to say it's a bad day so far....


She is going through her own roller coaster...whatever that is. 

Both of you think you are the bigger victim of the two. You need to help one another to fix this situation. But then, you should trust one another for this to work out. Right now, neither of you do.


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## EI

The post that I made last night really hurt my H. I was feeling so defensive because I felt like no one here was really grasping the intensity of the pain that I was in when I made the choice to betray my husband. It doesn't justify what I did. I can't justify what I did because there isn't a justification. It was wrong. I didn't have the tools within me last year to "fix" the hurting inside of me. I was broken.... that isn't an excuse, but it is the only explanation that I have. I was completely broken. I wish that I could rewind, go back, but I can't. Now, H & I have to figure out if we can continue to heal together or if we need to be apart. I was holding on to a lot of old resentments toward H. During my A, I was able to push them back. I really thought that I had let them go. The A was self-medicating, but I'm not sure that I realized that at the time. Every day is such a challenge right now and we honestly don't know how we are going to feel from one hour to the next. After my post last night I took a long bath and when I got out, H was online reading my post. He was hurting.... I lashed out again and reminded him of all of the past hurts that had resurfaced now that I am no longer under the influence of the drug that is the A. I hadn't been able to truly empathize with his pain yet. I knew that I was sorry that I had hurt him, but I wasn't ready to say that I was sorry that I had done it. He has cried so many tears in the last few weeks. I don't think I have seen him cry too many times in the last 31 years. I wasn't truly feeling his pain because I was still reeling in my own pain and resentment. But last night, I said something very cruel and hurtful to him and only then did the magnitude of what I had done come tumbling down. I am beginning to feel his pain and I think it might be unbearable. I wasn't going to post on here, again. I'm not sure if this has been helpful or not. At times it seems to help, but the truth is that the strictly mean and malicious comments really do hurt both of us. 

I am going to put myself out here, once, again. For those of you who have been betrayed and have successfully reconciled, please tell me how I can help my H heal. For those of you who weren't able to R please comment only if you are genuinely offering something with the intention of helping us heal.... whether it is together or apart. Can marriages really heal from this kind of thing.... or do they just limp along? Is it possible for both of us to truly be happy again, together?

To my husband, I love you, I'm sorry that I hurt you this way. I am so sorry that I violated you, me, our family and our marriage vows. I am so sorry that you are in a pain that I can't bear for you. I wish that I could. I am going to do everything that I can to help you heal from this hurt. If we can survive this then maybe we can have a better marriage than we have ever had before. We've had some wonderful times together. We've raised a beautiful family. You allowed me to have my dream of being a stay at home Mom to our kids, and you supported me when I took on the task of taking care of Mom and Dad. You took as much care of them as I did. You've worked hard to support our big family. You held my Dad in your arms when he took his last breath, you let me have 5 kids instead of 3 (only YOU know what that means ) the list is endless. 

~EI


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## Almostrecovered

bandit.45 said:


> Badblood treated his ex pretty well considering what she did to him. Don't understand why he gets off eviscerating other WWs. Just don't get it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


feels the need to direct his anger somewhere else since he feels he can't with his mentally fragile wife?

just a guess


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## Almostrecovered

Empty Inside said:


> I can't justify what I did because there isn't a justification. It was wrong. I didn't have the tools within me last year to "fix" the hurting inside of me. I was broken.... that isn't an excuse, but it is the only explanation that I have. I was completely broken. I wish that I could rewind, go back, but I can't. Now, H & I have to figure out if we can continue to heal together or if we need to be apart.




I'm somewhat shocked you finally got to this first step but I am glad to see it, forgive my earlier harsh words but I was not seeing a remorseful statement from you in the slightest but lots of excuses and even pining for the OM

so to answer the 2nd part (what tools do you need to attempt a proper R?)


1) NC (already established)
2) complete transparency- be an open book and for the healing stages be hypersensitive to letting him know of your whereabouts, what you're doing, what you're doing on the computer, etc All passwords and access to a phone is a must- let your husband snoop all he wants and do not be offended if he needs to spy to verify that he can trust what you say to him.
3) demonstrating remorse- no trickle truth, gaslighting, or blameshifting. Help him through his triggers and pangs of doubts. If he feels bad because of the affair then you be there and help him with it, you carry that burden to make him feel better. The more you do this the more he will be willing to start examining his own behaviors in the marriage that need work and will reciprocate. But it has to start with you, this is triage- your husband's behavior preaffair is a compound fracture, it's serious and needs attention but your affair is a heart attack and you need to stabilize that problem first before you reset the bone.
4) Spend gobs of one on one time together, find something you both like and do it together. REBOND. 


for you guys in particular I suggest being radically open about sex as well, it sounds as though you had a sh!tty sex life and you both need to express desires and wants.


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## warlock07

Do the WS go through the emotional roller coaster too?


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## EI

Almostrecovered said:


> I'm somewhat shocked you finally got to this first step but I am glad to see it, forgive my earlier harsh words but I was not seeing a remorseful statement from you in the slightest but lots of excuses and even pining for the OM
> 
> so to answer the 2nd part (what tools do you need to attempt a proper R?)
> 
> 
> 1) NC (already established)
> 2) complete transparency- be an open book and for the healing stages be hypersensitive to letting him know of your whereabouts, what you're doing, what you're doing on the computer, etc All passwords and access to a phone is a must- let your husband snoop all he wants and do not be offended if he needs to spy to verify that he can trust what you say to him.
> 3) demonstrating remorse- no trickle truth, gaslighting, or blameshifting. Help him through his triggers and pangs of doubts. If he feels bad because of the affair then you be there and help him with it, you carry that burden to make him feel better. The more you do this the more he will be willing to start examining his own behaviors in the marriage that need work and will reciprocate. But it has to start with you, this is triage- your husband's behavior preaffair is a compound fracture, it's serious and needs attention but your affair is a heart attack and you need to stabilize that problem first before you reset the bone.
> 4) Spend gobs of one on one time together, find something you both like and do it together. REBOND.
> 
> 
> for you guys in particular I suggest being radically open about sex as well, it sounds as though you had a sh!tty sex life and you both need to express desires and wants.



#1... check
#2... check
#3... just arriving
#4... Spend gobs of one on one time together, find something you both like and do it together. REBOND. - *My thoughts EXACTLY!!! ;-) *


The problem was much more between the ears than between the legs. His long-standing low T caused a lack of desire on his part and left me feeling undesirable, inadequate, and unattractive. It was many years before we understood what the problem really was. Frustration on his part because of a lack of understanding left me with hurt feelings and feelings of rejection. To put it bluntly.... his T levels are where they need to be and he is a very eager participant, now!  Hence my comment the other day about feeling like we were on our honeymoon. Of course, that great day was followed by the worst one, yet! It really is a roller coaster.

Thank you for your wisdom!


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## Almostrecovered

also, understand that this will take a looooonnnnggg time and be patient if you want it to work and even understand it still may not work

they say it takes 2-5 years to heal, it took me 2 years personally and my wife cheated for 18 days, so I would guess you guys will be on the 5 year side


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## Almostrecovered

another thing-

around the one month after NC mark, either you or your OM will be itchy to fish for contact

have a plan- if he calls or texts or whatever- you ignore it and tell your husband of it right away
if you feel the urge to do it yourself get your ass over to your husband right away or call him instead, do NOT give in to that urge, it will come. I guarantee due to the length of your affair you will get this feeling, resist that feeling and the next time that feeling comes again you will be stronger to resist it. Do not slack in your resolve for NC.


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## warlock07

EI, your emotions, noticed anything strange with them ? You seem to alternate between being extremely loving to hateful and angry more than once.


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## TBT

EI,I'm glad you decided to come back.As a BS,I guess what I focused on was your apparent ambivalence in the OP in your own thread.It seemed like you were more in an acceptance that your marriage was over even though you were speaking vaguely of R,so you were supporting that with justifications.I couldn't see how being ambivalent would allow you to put 100% effort into a real attempt at R.Your willingness to make an honest effort to R seems to be more defined now and I applaud that because in the end,though I chose not to R,I'm very pro marriage and truly wish only the best for yours.So now it's time to roll up the sleeves and get down to the hard work.Take care.


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## EI

warlock07 said:


> Do the WS go through the emotional roller coaster too?


If you are asking me, and I can only speak for myself, the answer is yes. I had truly given up on my marriage. I had invested my heart elsewhere. Feelings are not like a water faucet that you can turn on and off on a dime. I didn't believe that my H loved me and over time my love for him withered and died. When he responded with such pain and intensity over my A, my first response was panic, I felt that I was being ripped away from the "drug" that was medicating my pain. Then, my resentment set in. Why now? Why are you able to show me such love, compassion and mercy, now? Is it real? Can I trust this? I have had a hard time wrapping my head around this new, improved H of mine. Then my guilt for hurting him, but again, that was still tinged with bitterness because he couldn't find it within himself to show me the love, compassion and mercy when he could see how badly I was hurting these last few years. It was his pain that brought those feelings up to the surface for him. So, in effect, I was mad at him because I felt guilty for hurting him. I put up some of my own walls.... which is completely out of character for me. I am usually an emotional blubbering mess. In a way, he and I have had a complete role reversal. I wanted to blame him for me feeling guilty for hurting him. It hurts too much for me to bear the pain of knowing how I hurt him. So, I blamed him. We are sharing our story, here, in real time. It is unfolding every day. I know that you all were furious with my responses, at times, but I couldn't give more than I had to give at the time. I had to be honest about my feelings or apparent lack of remorse because otherwise we couldn't go through all of the necessary stages which include total honesty and transparency right? It almost seemed safer to vent it here because you all are complete strangers.

I hope that all of that just made some sense....


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## EI

warlock07 said:


> EI, your emotions, noticed anything strange with them ? You seem to alternate between being extremely loving to hateful and angry more than once.


Really? I didn't think that I was using an angry one? The big Green Face is a "Grin!" Which angry ones am I using? I am always heavy on the exclamation points and smiley faces in my writing. I haven't been expressing that on here up until now. It didn't seem appropriate. Now, maybe some of you will get to see my kinder, gentler side.... with a huge dose of sarcastic wit thrown in. My emoticon usage drives my son-in-law crazy. He is an engineer and emoticons "do not compute!" LOL


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## loveisforever

Empty Inside:

I read your threads and I know you are a truly a good mother and a good daughter. Are you a good wife? Yes! You are. You made a mistake, yes, indeed. But on the bottom of your heart, you love your husband and the family. Your husband is a good husband. But your past marriage was not a good one, not a supportive one. You have the right to trash the old marriage and get a new, good one with your present husband. You have the courage, honesty and wisdom to get it down. You and your husband both are truly amazing, it is just the hard life that has twisted your marriage! Get it corrected together! Go ahead and fly!


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## EI

Almostrecovered said:


> another thing-
> 
> around the one month after NC mark, either you or your OM will be itchy to fish for contact
> 
> have a plan- if he calls or texts or whatever- you ignore it and tell your husband of it right away
> if you feel the urge to do it yourself get your ass over to your husband right away or call him instead, do NOT give in to that urge, it will come. I guarantee due to the length of your affair you will get this feeling, resist that feeling and the next time that feeling comes again you will be stronger to resist it. Do not slack in your resolve for NC.


It's coming up on 4 weeks right now. And, I'll be honest.... I was feeling very stressed yesterday afternoon and my usual response to stress was to call the OM and vent. I didn't want to discuss feelings or anything about our past A. I just wanted to vent. That was the EA part of our A. So, you know what I did? I picked up the phone and called my H instead. Which is what husbands and wives are supposed to do. I told him what I was feeling and, although it was hard, we got through it..... the urge passed and here we are. That is why I have stated many times that my H has been my rock throughout this. He is helping me heal. And, although, you guys get "nuts" over that, in a marriage, spouses are supposed to be a source of comfort for one another. And, you're right, I did feel better and I do feel stronger every day.... but, I know there are good days and bad days....


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## EI

loveisforever said:


> Empty Inside:
> 
> I read your threads and I know you are a truly a good mother and a good daughter. Are you a good wife? Yes! You are. You made a mistake, yes, indeed. But on the bottom of your heart, you love your husband and the family. Your husband is a good husband. But your past marriage was not a good one, not a supportive one. You have the right to trash the old marriage and get a new, good one with your present husband. You have the courage, honesty and wisdom to get it down. You and your husband both are truly amazing, it is just the hard life that has twisted your marriage! Get it corrected together! Go ahead and fly!



Thank you so much! Now, I am crying and I really needed that. The truth is, it is very hard to live a lie and it makes you question everything you are and everything you ever thought you were. I feel like I lost my integrity, my honesty, my spirituality, my self-respect.... so much. But, I am going to get them back, now. But, there are things that I hope I will never take for granted again. I will still maintain that we are all human and that humans have breaking points. This is a very difficult journey to be on. I know we still have such a long way to go!


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## loveisforever

betrayed1:

I understand that you are having pain now. Pain is the essential part to draw your attention to change. One change you can make is to trust yourself. You are a wonderful man. You had handled lots of difficult situations. And you can handle this one!Another thing is to trust your wife. Yes, she had done a terrible thing. Forgive her and lead her. Act as a leader in your family and give everybody attentions, not only your wife. Do not think like a victim. Be confident and assertive! Be the strong figure of your family and give your wife the unconditional love! You need get her real respect to be truly loved. Do not worry about whether she loves you. Just show her you are the man to be loved! If you do not have such confidence in yourself, you will not get such in your marriage.


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## warlock07

Deleted FB?


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## loveisforever

Empty Inside said:


> Thank you so much! Now, I am crying and I really needed that. The truth is, it is very hard to live a lie and it makes you question everything you are and everything you ever thought you were. I feel like I lost my integrity, my honesty, my spirituality, my self-respect.... so much. But, I am going to get them back, now. But, there are things that I hope I will never take for granted again. I will still maintain that we are all human and that humans have breaking points. This is a very difficult journey to be on. I know we still have such a long way to go!


This is the right attitude and attitude is the most important thing for the healing. You may feel your husband had let you down in the past. But he was just concentrating too much on the other aspect of your family's life, not realizing fully that it leaves not enough room for your marriage to grow. It is not his fault, neither yours. Your guys simply were not perfect, simply need to be improved. Now is the time for both of you to improve yourself to the next stage. Now is the time for both of you to face the new challenge-together! Too be sure, life has provide lots of challenging situations to your guys. I have to respect both of you greatly to be able to pull things off as of today. Both of you deserve respect and praises for what has been achieved so far. Life yet again demands both of you to repair your marriage to a high level that beyond ordinary. Please support each other in this journey.


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## loveisforever

Empty Inside said:


> It's coming up on 4 weeks right now. And, I'll be honest.... I was feeling very stressed yesterday afternoon and my usual response to stress was to call the OM and vent. I didn't want to discuss feelings or anything about our past A. I just wanted to vent. That was the EA part of our A. So, you know what I did? I picked up the phone and called my H instead. Which is what husbands and wives are supposed to do. I told him what I was feeling and, although it was hard, we got through it..... the urge passed and here we are. That is why I have stated many times that my H has been my rock throughout this. He is helping me heal. And, although, you guys get "nuts" over that, in a marriage, spouses are supposed to be a source of comfort for one another. And, you're right, I did feel better and I do feel stronger every day.... but, I know there are good days and bad days....


Way to go! I am happy to see you are on the right path to be re-united with your husband spiritually.


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## happyman64

And EI, STAY POSITIVE as best you can.

Stay positive for you and stay positive for him.

Be in the marriage to win the marriage back.

Of course he is hurting and so are you.

And yes it is a long rollercoaster.

But you listed some great qualities of your Husband that you see are worth fighting for. And your husband has painted you in the same bright light.

So work on your issues, help him with his and fight your hardest to R.

Many of us are cheering you on. And that is saying a lot because this crowd is justifiably tough....

HM64


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## B1

WOW..so much wisdom in the last several posts, really truly heartwarming to read. I sure needed that. We have been through a lot in the last 15 years, some very hard times.

It's been a tough day. This morning at work things started falling back into place a bit. We are on the long long road to R. I now know that it will be a tough journey filled with ups and downs, road blocks and bad weather. Yesterday I realized just how quickly things can turn sour too. We both have to stay on our toes and help each other, love each other and talk...talk...talk which we do.

My wife changed all her passwords and gave them to me today, not that I didn't have them already . She is being and has been transparent for a while now and always answering all my questions. We ordered phone records for the past few weeks through today to prove NC, I checked cell records today to satisfy my concerns. Last night was just rough, but we made it. 

Right now I'm getting ready to talk with a friend who was in my shoes many years ago and they made it, I get to talk, vent, ask questions I'm excited and afraid at the same time..it will be grueling I know. Tomorrow is my counseling session. Then we have a session together next week. SO I think we are doing everything we can and doing things correctly, hard to know for sure though. Day by day and hour by hour, one step at a time.


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## MattMatt

Empty Inside said:


> The post that I made last night really hurt my H. I was feeling so defensive because I felt like no one here was really grasping the intensity of the pain that I was in when I made the choice to betray my husband. It doesn't justify what I did. I can't justify what I did because there isn't a justification. It was wrong. I didn't have the tools within me last year to "fix" the hurting inside of me. I was broken.... that isn't an excuse, but it is the only explanation that I have. I was completely broken. I wish that I could rewind, go back, but I can't. Now, H & I have to figure out if we can continue to heal together or if we need to be apart. I was holding on to a lot of old resentments toward H. During my A, I was able to push them back. I really thought that I had let them go. The A was self-medicating, but I'm not sure that I realized that at the time. Every day is such a challenge right now and we honestly don't know how we are going to feel from one hour to the next. After my post last night I took a long bath and when I got out, H was online reading my post. He was hurting.... I lashed out again and reminded him of all of the past hurts that had resurfaced now that I am no longer under the influence of the drug that is the A. I hadn't been able to truly empathize with his pain yet. I knew that I was sorry that I had hurt him, but I wasn't ready to say that I was sorry that I had done it. He has cried so many tears in the last few weeks. I don't think I have seen him cry too many times in the last 31 years. I wasn't truly feeling his pain because I was still reeling in my own pain and resentment. But last night, I said something very cruel and hurtful to him and only then did the magnitude of what I had done come tumbling down. I am beginning to feel his pain and I think it might be unbearable. I wasn't going to post on here, again. I'm not sure if this has been helpful or not. At times it seems to help, but the truth is that the strictly mean and malicious comments really do hurt both of us.
> 
> I am going to put myself out here, once, again. For those of you who have been betrayed and have successfully reconciled, please tell me how I can help my H heal. For those of you who weren't able to R please comment only if you are genuinely offering something with the intention of helping us heal.... whether it is together or apart. Can marriages really heal from this kind of thing.... or do they just limp along? Is it possible for both of us to truly be happy again, together?
> 
> To my husband, I love you, I'm sorry that I hurt you this way. I am so sorry that I violated you, me, our family and our marriage vows. I am so sorry that you are in a pain that I can't bear for you. I wish that I could. I am going to do everything that I can to help you heal from this hurt. If we can survive this then maybe we can have a better marriage than we have ever had before. We've had some wonderful times together. We've raised a beautiful family. You allowed me to have my dream of being a stay at home Mom to our kids, and you supported me when I took on the task of taking care of Mom and Dad. You took as much care of them as I did. You've worked hard to support our big family. You held my Dad in your arms when he took his last breath, you let me have 5 kids instead of 3 (only YOU know what that means ) the list is endless.
> 
> Love,
> [email protected]#$%^&*


Just LOVE him, dash it all to heck! 

Be there for him.

And that goes for you too, B1!

Just LOVE her, dash it all to heck! 

Be there for her.

Please. I think your story can end well. Please make sure it does.

But that's a job for both of you. Marriage is like a cart. If the horses pull in different directions, it's gonna get broken. :smthumbup:


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## MattMatt

warlock07 said:


> Do the WS go through the emotional roller coaster too?


I did. I was in a hell of a mess. Because I knew I had done wrong. I'd hurt my wife and hurt the OW, too.

And that was over something that only nearly became a PA. If it had gone further? I think I'd have had a breakdown.


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## Shaggy

EI, some advice: You've more than enough gotten payback on your husband fir every bad thing he ever said or did in the last 32 years. You've won. You trumped all his hurt and gave it back 10x over.

Now let it go and forgive him. Stop dragging it up, stop falling back on it. You got him back in spades, and you've found out that such payback wasn't at all satisfying. Your still unhappy even though you won the battle of who can hurt the other the most. 

He hurt you, then you medicated by cheating. Your turn is over.

Now he's the one hurting. You can to do something to redeem yourself? Help him heal, and stop bringing up the past. He's more than met you halfway. He's bing there for you. He's taking medication for you. He's having sex with you. He's doing his part. No its your turn to stop revisiting the past hurts he did, and instead of living with the memory of him I the past, instead live with the him of the present.

He's trying to be the husband you wanted.

It's time for you to become the wife he wants.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt

It's time for you both to become the wife and husband WE want! Look, we have invested heavily in this! We need results, too, damnit!

I like love stories involving older people. Oh, OK, what I mean is, people of my own age!:smthumbup:


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## cabin fever

I think its good you 2 are still posting. 

I am 6 months out from D-Day, and the first 3 or 4 months were by far the hardest. 

You will go through so many mood swings its not funny. Its a very long roller coaster ride. 

With each passing day things get a little better. Your husband will never forget what happend. But he will be able to learn from it, and understand why it happened. He can use that knowledge to change things to make sure it doesn't happen again. 

E.I. you need just be there for him. Answer his questions, listen to him vent. Talk him down off the ledge. When he's angry know its cause he is hurting. In short all you can do is be there for him, and reaffirm your love, commitment, and compassion. You have to let go of the resentment you built up, and be willing to replace it with new, better memories waiting to be made. 

B1 you need to also be willing to forgive. Realize your mistakes that lead to her resentment. Even if you only said a handful of negative comments, your wife built up 15 years of resentment and that doesn't come from just a few snide remarks. 

I am usually all for couples trying to reconcile. I will be honest at first I didn't sense E.I.'s remorse. It sounds like she is coming around. Unfortunatley there is no timeline on how to deal with this, and you both need to be there for each other. 


about 2 months after my wife and I reconciled, I came out to the garage to find her full of tears. It was then that I realized that she realized the magnitude of her actions. She ALMOST threw away everything we have worked for. Just knowing that she "got it" helped me move forward. Like it was worth fighting for.

The 2 of you need each other. More so then you probably realize. Thats a good thing. 

Get out and do things together. NEW things. Things you have wanted to do for awhile. you both must give a little. 

I wish the best for both of you.


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## iheartlife

As the BS in a recommitted and reconciled marriage with things better than they ever were (long story), my main recommendations:

Avoid trickle truth in all its forms like the plague; failed R is all about lying that never stops

Avoid contact like the plague; it will be the straw that breaks the camel's back. Contact can be indirect, like googling the OM, looking at his FB page, driving by his house, etc. 

Learn to fight fair; this was a lesson we had a few months into R. We had been doing great and then we had a 'real' fight about an old issue. It was a bit shocking to me to see that we had to change the dynamic.

Learn to use humor to address problems together. It's very team building. The two of you against the world--co-conspirators.

Learn your respective core needs and love busters per the books recommended before. You may think you know them but you may also be surprised.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acabado

Empty, do you have a friend in real life who could be suportive of you and the marriage too? A kind ear who won't judge you?

I'm very glad to hear you you called your husband when the need to vent to OM aised. You will be tempted again, many times, evet to ask ''how you are'', your mind will come with usual tricks. If your husband is not aviable visualize a STOP sign, sit on your hands, sudoku, clean the garage if necessary... whatever. Don't break NC. Ever.


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## EI

warlock07 said:


> Deleted FB?



I still have my Facebook account.... but he and everyone that I knew of, only through him, have been deleted and blocked. I have a lot of family on my FB and being a mother, I use FB to keep tabs on my kids. Although, they're grown now, so that isn't quite as much of an issue, anymore. But "Words with Friends" has helped me keep my sanity in the last few weeks! 

But, that was a good question because, I assume you noticed, that is where my former AP and I rediscovered one another. I do wonder just how many marriages have been sacrificed since FB came around.

Hubby is the keeper of all of my passwords (to everything) now! And, I'm okay with that!


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## EI

MattMatt said:


> It's time for you both to become the wife and husband WE want! Look, we have invested heavily in this! We need results, too, damnit!
> 
> I like love stories involving older people. Oh, OK, what I mean is, people of my own age!:smthumbup:


Well, MattMatt, we'll see what WE can do for YOU guys!!! LOL

Ooooooooh...... I was really gonna like your post until you said "older people!" What the heck is that all about???!!! I've been celebrating my 29th birthday since 1993!  LOL


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## EI

Shaggy said:


> EI, some advice: You've more than enough gotten payback on your husband fir every bad thing he ever said or did in the last 32 years. You've won. You trumped all his hurt and gave it back 10x over.
> 
> Now let it go and forgive him. Stop dragging it up, stop falling back on it. You got him back in spades, and you've found out that such payback wasn't at all satisfying. Your still unhappy even though you won the battle of who can hurt the other the most.
> 
> He hurt you, then you medicated by cheating. Your turn is over.
> 
> Now he's the one hurting. You can to do something to redeem yourself? Help him heal, and stop bringing up the past. He's more than met you halfway. He's bing there for you. He's taking medication for you. He's having sex with you. He's doing his part. No its your turn to stop revisiting the past hurts he did, and instead of living with the memory of him I the past, instead live with the him of the present.
> 
> He's trying to be the husband you wanted.
> 
> It's time for you to become the wife he wants.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Agreed, and will do, Sir! But, the part where you said that he is 'having sex with me,' as if it is some dreaded chore..... well, well, well...... he's only just now realizing what he has been missing out on (his choice... not mine) all of these years!  LOL


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## EI

Acabado said:


> Empty, do you have a friend in real life who could be suportive of you and the marriage too? A kind ear who won't judge you?
> 
> I'm very glad to hear you you called your husband when the need to vent to OM aised. You will be tempted again, many times, evet to ask ''how you are'', your mind will come with usual tricks. If your husband is not aviable visualize a STOP sign, sit on your hands, sudoku, clean the garage if necessary... whatever. Don't break NC. Ever.


I do have a real life friend who has been very supportive and understanding of me and my H throughout this. Her first marriage ended over 20 years ago due to her infidelity and she has always deeply regretted the way that she handled the situation. Because of that, she has been very kind and understanding, never condoning, but she has not been judgmental, either, just concerned for our well-being. She has known my husband as long as I have and cares for us as a couple and not just me as an individual. I wasn't able to lean on her for support during my A because her 20 y/o step-son was diagnosed with terminal cancer just a few days before my A began. Ironically enough, he passed away on our D-Day. So, in the aftermath of my H discovering my A, he stood by me and we watched our friend and her husband bury their only child. It's been a very hard month.

I just discovered "Words with Friends" on FB and it has done wonders to keep my mind occupied during stressful times. 

I just realized earlier today that it is day 28. I believe that is a significant day for people going through withdrawal. Whether it is a coincidence or not..... I didn't once have to fight the urge to call him today. That makes me happy... and I'm glad.

Thank you for the encouragement and suggestions.


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## MattMatt

Empty Inside said:


> Well, MattMatt, we'll see what WE can do for YOU guys!!! LOL
> 
> Ooooooooh...... I was really gonna like your post until you said "older people!" What the heck is that all about???!!! I've been celebrating my 29th birthday since 1993!  LOL


I think I am going to be 55 for the next 10 years! 
:rofl:

Have to ask my mother what it's like having a son of 55! No. Second thoughts, I won't do that!


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## morituri

EI and B1,

The blame game is never ending but when all is said and done it is nothing more than a stupid exercise in futility that helps neither one of you but instead feeds the toxic twin demons (anger and bitterness). Let go of ego and pride as well.


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## B1

Just back from first counseling session, wasn't overall thrilled with it, it seemed very superficial and it was just re-hashing everything over again which I have been doing anyway for the past week. He is much more interested in getting us in there together, that's next week. He did validate many things I was thinking. He says the together marriage counseling will be tougher.

I know, at least for today, I love my wife, I want to work this out and have high hopes we can make it work. I am scared of things to come, everyone keeps saying I have anger to work through and resentment, they say it like it's coming soon so beware..right now I don't have anger, I do have intense pain and that seems to override everything. Perhaps it's shielding me from anger etc.? 
I need my wife for comfort right now and she is being there for me 110%. I still have questions pop up sometimes about the A, but they are getting fewer and fewer.

It can still seem like a bad dream, like did this really happen. Then it hits me, YES this really happened. Yes your in intense pain and yes you still love her. I really do love her. Believe it or not that feels good to say because I really feel it, I mean I really "feel" it. My walls are down and I will do counseling just to make sure they never go back up. I also realize tomorrow I may be telling her it's over, I can't do this. But that's just the ride we are on right now, but we are on it together and that's how I want it now.

We have also started telling a few close family members, mainly for support and help. So far that is going very well. I also have a friend I am talking to who has been where I am and that helped a lot.

Thanks everyone for the wisdom and help and taking your time to post. please keep it coming..it's therapeutic and helps.


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## Tall Average Guy

Empty Inside said:


> Agreed, and will do, Sir! But, the part where you said that he is 'having sex with me,' as if it is some dreaded chore..... well, well, well...... he's only just now realizing what he has been missing out on (*his choice... not mine*) all of these years!  LOL


Let it go.

Best wishes to you.


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## aug

betrayed1 said:


> I know, at least for today, I love my wife, I want to work this out and have high hopes we can make it work. I am scared of things to come, everyone keeps saying I have anger to work through and resentment, they say it like it's coming soon so beware..right now I don't have anger, I do have intense pain and that seems to override everything. Perhaps it's shielding me from anger etc.?




google "stages of grief loss". kubler-ross model is an established one. The stages can intermingle. There's no definite timeframe for each stage. Each person will go through the stages at their own rate. Where you end up in your marriage in the future depends on many factors.


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## happyman64

"I love my wife, I want to work this out and have high hopes we can make it work."

Write that line on a piece of paper and put it on the fridge or in your underwear drawer.

Read it once or twice a day. Read it when you trigger at home or if you are having a bad day.

Remind yourself of how you feel about your wife and that you are committed to R.

Keep going. You are doing really well.

And of course you are going to get angry. Who wouldn't. But that doesn't mean you do not love your wife. You just hate what she did to you, your marriage and to herself.

You can work on you and the marriage but she has to work on herself and the marriage.
See the connection. 

Keep moving forward.

HM64
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

What a day! So many ups and downs in a single day. Is this a normal part of this horrible R process? H had his first therapy session since D-Day. He came home and we spent the next several hours talking. Long talks seem to help both of us so much. Then our daughter called and asked us to join her, her husband and an old friend of hers for dinner. It was turning into such a lovely day. After dinner H & I were in the car and I actually expressed concern that we were getting along so well that I feared that we might start avoiding confrontation and conflict just so as not to rock the boat and in the long run that might harm us. Tomorrow is our 28th wedding anniversary. Yeah, unless you've been through it, you can't imagine what it's like trying to buy an anniversary card under these kinds of circumstances. Decided to go to our daughter's home where the ladies would stay home and play with baby and H and S-I-L would get in some fishing time. They know about our situation, but our younger children (still living at home did not.) They are, certainly, aware that "something" is going on, and they have known for over a year that Mom and Dad were no longer sharing a bedroom. Although, we have been for the last couple of weeks. They've heard us arguing, crying and yelling, and then see us hugging, kissing and holding hands. I guess it has been more confusing than ever and they are young adults. They have asked some questions and we told them that we were working on it and when we were ready we would talk to them. Honestly, things change from day to day.

So, this evening while at my daughter's, our 19 y/o son called his sister and told her that he knew something was going on and assumed that she knows what it is. He bluffed enough to make her think he knew more than he did. Our normally, extremely mature, daughter sang like a canary, including giving our son the full name of my AP. I know that my actions are what created this situation in the first place and that she never should have been in this position.... but, here we are, anyway. Of all of my boys, this is the one who has quite a temper. He's is his father's son..... just kidding, y'all already know H is quiet and laid back. He is his mother's boy. He is hurt, disappointed, angry, etc..... everything you might expect and I have that to live with and make up for the rest of my life. But, he is directing most of his anger at the OM and telling me that he is disappointed but loves me very much, he questioned me about a lot of things and H and I, both, answered his questions. 

I sent the NC letter earlier this week. We have not spoken by phone or text in weeks. No contact, at all, since a few days after D-Day. The first couple of weeks were very difficult for me. Last week not as hard and this week, except for a couple of very stressful days, I have not had to struggle with the desire to contact him. Now, that my very hot tempered 19 y/o son knows, he seems to want to vent his anger at the OM. With all of today's technology it wouldn't be difficult, at all, for him to get a phone number to contact him. OM is deleted and blocked on my FB, but since our son has his name he can search for him from any other FB account. Our son is very angry at the OM (although I know that it is really me he is angry with) and he has threatened to punch him in the face, call him, etc.... Obviously, no good can come from any of that. I asked my H to talk to him calmly and ask him not to contact the OM in any way. H did do that, but later in private H said that he really didn't understand why I wanted to protect the OM and why I didn't think that our son should be able to tell that POS what he did to our family (again, I am the one who hurt my family.) D-Day confrontation with your spouse is Hell. There really is no word in existence to describe the heartache of D-Day confrontation with your children. 

I would understand the reasoning in confronting the OM if he were trying to contact me in any way or if the A was still going on. He isn't contacting me and I know him well enough to know that he won't. Unless I were to contact him, which I have NO intention of doing, I doubt that I will ever see or hear from him again as long as I live. We live in the same city and had not seen one another in over 31 years. 

H thinks that I don't want our son to call the OM in order to protect the feelings of the OM. I had to think about why I felt so strongly that he shouldn't call because I, honestly, didn't know why I felt that way. We argued for a while, which brought an unpleasant ending to what had been a lovely day. What I have concluded is that I am doing so well with NC, much better than I thought possible a few weeks ago. During the brief breakup with the OM last summer I pined for him everyday. When the false R with my H fell apart last summer and we, again, began to live separate lives, it didn't take long for me to initiate contact with the OM. Hubby and I never talked about it last year, we swept it under the rug.... pretended that it never happened and didn't even discuss it after the first couple of weeks. We are handling it so differently this year, and for the first time in years, I have begun to feel happy, hopeful and excited about the future of my marriage. I know, I know, lots of hard work ahead, but H and I are, both, really loving all of the time we are spending together, growing closer, all of it. Yes, it is hard, but it has also been so good, too. I think that if my son contacts the OM that it might feel like ripping a band-aid off of a wound that, for me, has already begun to heal. The OM seems distant to me, right now, and I take comfort in that. I chose early on not to dwell on thoughts of the A and as time has continued to pass it has gotten easier. 

Thoughts? Would it be beneficial for my son to get this off of his chest? Would it help him to heal? Even if I think it might be a set back for me, do I just need to suck it up and tell him to call if he wants to? I really hate that my children are suffering, too. I know, I know.... I did this. But, my God will this nightmare ever end?


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## anonymouskitty

Yeah, what you and hubby boy are going through is pretty normanl, and if you're in for the long haul, this will most likely continue for some time at least. You need to do a lot of heavy lifting here or there's a more than decent chance that you're marriage will end.

Regarding your son, you need to let him vent his frustration out on you, contacting OM again won't do any good not for your son, your husband or yourself.Tell your son in clear terms that it is your mess and that you intend to clean it up yourself, no need for him to get his nose into something that's not his fault, you might also want to counsel your son, he could develop a few issues regarding trust from all that's happened now

You're physiologically weaning off the dopmaine so stay strong, you need to show hubby boy that you will be strong for him till the end, expect a lot of anger, snide remarks, name calling even a divorce.

You're going to have to help him heal if there's any chance for you to make it out rosy and fine and if you let your own issues take precedence over his, I wager pretty soon you'll be a single woman.

Best of Luck


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## aug

Your 19 y.o. son's anger needs to go somewhere. What do you think is the best channel to direct that anger?


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## B1

What a ride yesterday was, It was like a great day at the theme park then a lightning storm comes in and shuts everything down.

If you have read my wifes post about my 19 yr. old sons reaction of the A...part of me doesn't mind that SOB getting a call and feeling a little heartache, pressure, pain, to know what he did to my family etc. 
Then again, I do believe it's best he didn't call OM. What if he calls, chews him out, maybe threatens him then the OM contacts my wife about it. That would be a huge setback, overall not good. My son says he will respect my wishes and he will not contact the OM, I think it's ok. Besides, if there was going to be contact it would\should be from me.

Oddly enough I have no desire to call or contact the OM, yet. I don't really even see my primary anger directed at him. Now, when I think about it, let it sink in, I can get angry and did get VERY angry about it yesterday when I saw the effect on my son, I was very upset and almost hit rage, probably the first time for that in regards to OM. But right now I am calm and collected not much anger towards OM, don't get me wrong he is still a POS in my book. He's not hurting, his kids are not hurting there all just peachy while my family is being ripped apart. So much of me wants him and his family to hurt too.

It's our 28th wedding Anniversary today, yeah try to find a card for this one :scratchhead: I did actually manage to find a very good card and I think she will love it. It was about our journey and that I am glad I am in it with her.

Lets hope for a nice day, one without a storm. Highly unlikely, but we can still hope.


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## happyman64

EI
It is time for your 19 year old to grow up. Tell him to go find his friends and play some ball to vent his anger.

He does not need to involve himself in your mess.

And I do agree with you, you are not protecting the OM but keeping him out of your lives. There is a difference and B1 needs to understand this.

You are both doing great.and I think somewhere down the road your marriage and family will be awesome. Keep working at it.

HM64
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

And by the way Happy Anniversary to both of you. I will celebrate 20 years this year. I wish you many more to come.

Do yourselves both a favor. No affair talk today.

Just enjoy each other today.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## iheartlife

EI and betrayed1, the general rule is that contact is contact, i.e., the son contacting the OM isn't appropriate. So while betrayed1, in this instance you may see it as her wanting to protect the OM, at this point after the NC letter is sent, your immediate family reaching out is a breach of NC. What good is it to continue to embroil and enmesh your family with such contact? None that I can see.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy

I think the 19 yr old should toilet paper the OM's house 

I do think it way out of line for her to be worried about the OM. He is a trash bag who willing was the affair partner to her. Without him or scum like him, she couldn't have cheated.

Even now, he's lingering in the background waiting to jump back in as the AP if the change was given.

So I may be in the minority here, but I do think that giving the OM grief is perfectly Ok, so long as it doesn't cause you personally any legal grief.

Other ideas would be to write up a big sign like "In this house lives a guy who likes married women as a his girlfriends. He can't get a woman of his own, so he goes after married women"

Stick it in the ground outside of his house. Petty - yes, but petty does have a place in society.


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## Acabado

Empty, any effort you make to let OM avoid consequences for his actions will be felt as protecting him. It's what it is and can't be otherwise. Gezz B1 knows you still has this idealized POV of OM and that you strugles with breaking NC, right? For now on you are going to trust in your husband judgement to deal with OM. After all, if you are honest with yourself, I'm sure you don't want OM suffer any consequences and you prefer he'd just vanish slowly as you guys mend the mariage. 
I don't think is a good idea for your son contact OM on any shape of form. Not now. He just found out and calling in out of it was a wise move, there's always the chance things could scalate if we feed it enough. Maybe in the future if he feels the need to send a ventish email... well.

NC everyone for now. As the NC letter has being sent (did it spoke about legal consequences in case of not honoring it?), if OM fishes one fine day you can always start gathering evidence to get a RO.

Empty, apologize to your children. Make no excuses. Teach them it was completely wrong. Keep being the mother wich always was his role model even at the light of your recent failing. Teach them redemption is possibly when you reject your poor choices, repent and make amends.


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## BigLiam

I see nothing wrong with your son telling this POS off, nothing at all.
The guy messed with the family(EI invited him in). Let the kid tell the guy what an a-hole he is. 
The guy ,probably, will not give a rat's ass, as any man involved with a married mom has no conscience. 
But, what is the harm in letting the kid vent?

And, BI, I should have been more aware that you probably have at least as long a list of your wife's grievances as she has against you.


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## Fvstringpicker

Shaggy said:


> He is a trash bag who willing was the affair partner to her. Without him or scum like him, she couldn't have cheated.


Yep, you're right. without him or scum like him a woman wouldn't have the opportunity to cheat. However, I'm guessing there are about 100,000 adult males in this metro area. I think a good 25-30% would tell you they'd nail a married woman if given the chance. The rest would lie about it. If you're going after this guy, might as well go after his brother, 3 cousins, and 3 out of 5 of his friends and your brother in law, who would have gladly filled his shoes. If the plan to stop a woman from cheating is to limit the supply of men who will participate, good luck.
BTW, Empty is protecting her son, not the OM. He ain't going to accomplish a hell of a lot confronting and telling off this guy and depending on the OM, this kind of crap can go south in a hurry with somebody hurt or worse. Cops don't tell you domestic disturbance are the most dangerous to hear them self talk.


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## morituri

Fvstringpicker said:


> BTW, Empty is protecting her son, not the OM. He ain't going to accomplish a hell of a lot confronting and telling off this guy and depending on the OM, *this kind of crap can go south in a hurry with somebody hurt or worse. Cops don't tell you domestic disturbance are the most dangerous to hear them self talk.*


This should be the reason why it is a bad idea for their son to contact the OM. A tragedy could become reality very easily. Young men that age are not known for their restraint.


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## MattMatt

Now, this is why it is wrong to keep children out of the loop.

I have made this point before and for precisely this reason:

If someone cheats on their wife or husband the children often feel that *they* were cheated on, too.

When you are part of a family and cheat, then the entire family can be impacted on. 

"You were cheating, mom/dad? Oh. Is that why you did not have enough time to go to any of my recitals, any more?"


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## Shaggy

Fvstringpicker said:


> Yep, you're right. without him or scum like him a woman wouldn't have the opportunity to cheat. However, I'm guessing there are about 100,000 adult males in this metro area. I think a good 25-30% would tell you they'd nail a married woman if given the chance. The rest would lie about it. If you're going after this guy, might as well go after his brother, 3 cousins, and 3 out of 5 of his friends and your brother in law, who would have gladly filled his shoes. If the plan to stop a woman from cheating is to limit the supply of men who will participate, good luck.


There is a difference. He is the one she cheated with. Guys gotta learn if he wants to interfere with your wife, he's gets interfered with himself.

It's like an unlocked door. Even if you did leave it unlocked, it is perfectly reasonable to wack the guy who turns the knob and decides to come in a rob you.


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## Shaggy

MattMatt said:


> Now, this is why it is wrong to keep children out of the loop.
> 
> I have made this point before and for precisely this reason:
> 
> If someone cheats on their wife or husband the children often feel that *they* were cheated on, too.
> 
> When you are part of a family and cheat, then the entire family can be impacted on.
> 
> "You were cheating, mom/dad? Oh. Is that why you did not have enough time to go to any of my recitals, any more?"


For little kids I agree, but for any kid of 18 they deserve the truth and to know why their family is falling apart.


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## baldmale

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anonymouskitty

baldmale said:


> _Posted via Mobile Device_


you don't say!!!


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## Fvstringpicker

Shaggy said:


> There is a difference. He is the one she cheated with. Guys gotta learn if he wants to interfere with your wife, he's gets interfered with himself.


I said in another thread, guys don't use a love potion.

“When you begin a journey of revenge, start by digging two graves: one for your enemy, and one for yourself.” 
― Chinese proverb


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## B1

Still doing a LOT of talking...the support is coming in. My mom now knows everything, my Wife told her. She is here now and we just had a great talk, she loves us both. Now I will talk with my dad (they are divorced but still great friends). I know he will be a loving and supportive as well. So, I am expanding my support group and it's really helping. I still break down from time to time, I would say a few times a day still, not sobbing but some tears will just come. 

Today, so far has been good, conversations are still dominated by the A, but I guess they will be for a long while.

We are still dealing with the kids and them knowing, some are angry, some are indifferent, the ones expressing the anger and pain are, of course, handling it overall better, they are releasing there feelings where two of my kids are keeping it inside, I worry about them more. 

We had a great dinner with friends yesterday that have been where we are, they are 7 years past dday and doing great. It was a wonderful evening with laughs, tears and lots of therapeutic talking. Something we needed and need to do more of.


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## morituri

Get counseling for your kids ASAP.


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## happyman64

Mori is right. Do not wait for the kids to act out. It will happen.

Good to see you both are communicating with others in a positive way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

Hey, I know lots of you have left comments and have asked questions that I/we haven't directly responded to. We appreciate every one of you taking the time to follow our story. We had a very busy weekend, which is a good thing, I think. We spent a lot of time with family and some very dear friends. Our precious little grandson took his very first steps two nights ago. 

But, I have a question for you all and it may seem off topic, but I was wondering.... Is extreme fatigue something that goes along with what we are going through? We are coming up on the one month mark since my H first discovered all of the phone calls/texts and began questioning me. It took about two weeks before I completely revealed the extent of my A. I have been so tired that I wake up tired, stay tired all day and got to bed exhausted. Sometimes, I just want nothing more than to lay my head down and go to sleep. Last night I asked my H if it was okay if I just slept in this morning until I woke up on my own. Not, that that would normally be a problem on Sunday morning, but for the last few weeks I hadn't complained when he woke me up to talk. I'm just so tired.... mentally and physically. I feel so run down and I will be starting a new job for the first time in nearly 20 years one week from Monday. I have so many things that I need to get done before that time and I am afraid that I'm going to end up sick if I don't get some mental and physical rest. H was fine with me sleeping in (he is an early bird and I am a night owl..... it's been that way for years) but our phone starting ringing early and then we had a steady parade of company until late in the evening.

So, anyway, fatigue? Normal or should I go to the doctor for a check-up?


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## EI

MattMatt said:


> Now, this is why it is wrong to keep children out of the loop.
> 
> I have made this point before and for precisely this reason:
> 
> If someone cheats on their wife or husband the children often feel that *they* were cheated on, too.
> 
> When you are part of a family and cheat, then the entire family can be impacted on.
> 
> "You were cheating, mom/dad? Oh. Is that why you did not have enough time to go to any of my recitals, any more?"



You have a good point and I can tell you that when my son confronted me it was as painful if not more so than when my H did. My children.... well, there are simply no words to describe the devastation knowing that you have disappointed and hurt your children. But, I can honestly say that I NEVER once missed anything pertaining to my kids. The OM had children, as well, and it was always understood that the kids come first. That doesn't diminish the pain that they are feeling right now about my lies and deception and the fact that their world and everything they thought they could trust has, now, been shattered.

Two of ours sons, our 17 and 22 year old are walking around acting like nothing has happened and when I try to talk to them about it they seem to want to blow it off like it isn't really a big deal. I am most concerned about their well-being because I think they are suppressing their hurt and anger. I'm less worried about my 19 y/o who expressed so much anger, hurt and disappointment with me, then almost immediately became loving, forgiving and kind. He is the son that I butt heads with most of the time. I think he is most like me. The other two are like their Dad and tend to be more even-tempered. I'm not sure that is a good thing, right now.


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## EI

Fvstringpicker said:


> BTW, Empty is protecting her son, not the OM. He ain't going to accomplish a hell of a lot confronting and telling off this guy and depending on the OM, this kind of crap can go south in a hurry with somebody hurt or worse. Cops don't tell you domestic disturbance are the most dangerous to hear them self talk.


Thank You......


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## Zanna

Empty Inside said:


> Hey, I know lots of you have left comments and have asked questions that I/we haven't directly responded to. We appreciate every one of you taking the time to follow our story. We had a very busy weekend, which is a good thing, I think. We spent a lot of time with family and some very dear friends. Our precious little grandson took his very first steps two nights ago.
> 
> But, I have a question for you all and it may seem off topic, but I was wondering.... Is extreme fatigue something that goes along with what we are going through? We are coming up on the one month mark since my H first discovered all of the phone calls/texts and began questioning me. It took about two weeks before I completely revealed the extent of my A. I have been so tired that I wake up tired, stay tired all day and got to bed exhausted. Sometimes, I just want nothing more than to lay my head down and go to sleep. Last night I asked my H if it was okay if I just slept in this morning until I woke up on my own. Not, that that would normally be a problem on Sunday morning, but for the last few weeks I haven't complained if he woke me up at any time to talk. I'm just so tired.... mentally and physically. I feel so run down and I will be starting a new job for the first time in nearly 20 years one week from Monday. I have so many things that I need to get done before that time and I am afraid that I'm going to end up sick if I don't get some mental and physical rest. H was fine with me sleeping in (he is an early bird and I am a night owl..... it's been that way for years) but our phone starting ringing early and then we had a steady parade of company until late in the evening.
> 
> So, anyway, fatigue? Normal or should I go to the doctor for a check-up?


 I think this is completely normal. You are emotionally exhausted and drained from everything you are dealing with which often manifests itself as physical exhaustion. Been there, done that. Actually, I still don't sleep very well and it's 9 months past D-day. Even when I do, I'm still tired because of the emotional trauma of it all. My H seems to have more sleep issues now as well.

But it can't hurt to see your doctor to be sure.


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## BigLiam

Were'nt you concerned about the OM's kids and wife, EI? They never abused you, correct?
And, have those folks been informed, as well? Maybe you addressed this, but his wife needs to know.


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## EI

BigLiam said:


> Were'nt you concerned about the OM's kids and wife, EI? They never abused you, correct?
> And, have those folks been informed, as well? Maybe you addressed this, but his wife needs to know.




He has been divorced for many years. His most recent relationship was a 10 year live-in relationship. His ex GF had two young children when they first got together. He is their only father figure and he continues to support the children financially and emotionally and he has them every weekend. They were aware that I was in his life, but not to what extent, and they were not aware of my marital status.


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## Almostrecovered

Empty Inside said:


> Hey, I know lots of you have left comments and have asked questions that I/we haven't directly responded to. We appreciate every one of you taking the time to follow our story. We had a very busy weekend, which is a good thing, I think. We spent a lot of time with family and some very dear friends. Our precious little grandson took his very first steps two nights ago.
> 
> But, I have a question for you all and it may seem off topic, but I was wondering.... Is extreme fatigue something that goes along with what we are going through? We are coming up on the one month mark since my H first discovered all of the phone calls/texts and began questioning me. It took about two weeks before I completely revealed the extent of my A. I have been so tired that I wake up tired, stay tired all day and got to bed exhausted. Sometimes, I just want nothing more than to lay my head down and go to sleep. Last night I asked my H if it was okay if I just slept in this morning until I woke up on my own. Not, that that would normally be a problem on Sunday morning, but for the last few weeks I hadn't complained when he woke me up to talk. I'm just so tired.... mentally and physically. I feel so run down and I will be starting a new job for the first time in nearly 20 years one week from Monday. I have so many things that I need to get done before that time and I am afraid that I'm going to end up sick if I don't get some mental and physical rest. H was fine with me sleeping in (he is an early bird and I am a night owl..... it's been that way for years) but our phone starting ringing early and then we had a steady parade of company until late in the evening.
> 
> So, anyway, fatigue? Normal or should I go to the doctor for a check-up?


see the doctor link in my signature


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## B1

Really struggeling this morning..feelings of anger and resentment are creeping in. I still want to work it out, but %^$#@! why did she have to do something so destructive to me and this family. I see her precious little hands and the mind movies start playing where they have been and how they betrayed me so. 
Yesterday was an overall good day with lots of people visiting. It was good though to sit and talk with my wife later on. Sometimes I feel like I will explode if I don't talk now! and she is being so good about talking whenever and whereever, she is also good at knowing when I am feeling troubled and will ask if I am ok, do I need to talk.
She's is also getting better about letting me vent without venting back.


It's so conflicting, I want to sometimes yell "how could you" and other things but then I would loose my comfort person, at least for the moment. She is still hurting and bitter over the things I did, my emotional and physical rejection was truly awful and she bore that for years, I honestly don't know how she put up with it as long as she did. 
She is also having a hard time believeing this new emotional man in front of her will stick around. She is scared too and I understand that. I will do everything in my power to make sure he does stick around. 

Another one of my kids, the second oldest 22, one that was supressing it, let it out yesterday, he vented on her pretty bad, it was hard on her but she of course allowed it completly without any justyfing, she allowed him to express his hurt and dissapointment. 

Only 2 more people to tell, my dad and my sister, they will be supportive though I know. I told my boss and good friend today, he needed to know why I was missing so much work and why I had to leave early etc. He was very understanding and will help anyway possible. I get the distinct feeling hes been there because he knew things that only someone who had been through this would know.

Thanks for listening and taking your time to post, it means a lot.


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## iheartlife

I know others have said this but as you get further in to processing the affair you will need to take breaks from talking about it. Write down your thoughts and questions and save them for an agreed upon time or a day later etc. Also I found if I prefaced my questions with, "I need to ask you..." he had a moment to prepare himself and he was less explosive answering questions.

Eventually my H wrote a simple short apology with no "buts" and for some reason that helped more than anything, I could read it as much as I wanted.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mahike

It sounds like a lot has happend the last few days for both of you. Yes my wife and I are both still having trouble sleeping and feel a lot of fatigue.

You both will have days that are up and down. My wife and I had a great weekend then it ended listening about a friend of our kids that we have known since she was little, her husband has been having an affiar. It knocks you down some.

Good luck with the kids there will be some ups and down there as well.


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## Almostrecovered

betrayed1 said:


> Really struggeling this morning..feelings of anger and resentment are creeping in. I still want to work it out, but %^$#@! why did she have to do something so destructive to me and this family. I see her precious little hands and the mind movies start playing where they have been and how they betrayed me so.
> Yesterday was an overall good day with lots of people visiting. It was good though to sit and talk with my wife later on. Sometimes I feel like I will explode if I don't talk now! and she is being so good about talking whenever and whereever, she is also good at knowing when I am feeling troubled and will ask if I am ok, do I need to talk.
> She's is also getting better about letting me vent without venting back.
> 
> 
> It's so conflicting, I want to sometimes yell "how could you" and other things but then I would loose my comfort person, at least for the moment. She is still hurting and bitter over the things I did, my emotional and physical rejection was truly awful and she bore that for years, I honestly don't know how she put up with it as long as she did.
> She is also having a hard time believeing this new emotional man in front of her will stick around. She is scared too and I understand that. I will do everything in my power to make sure he does stick around.
> 
> Another one of my kids, the second oldest 22, one that was supressing it, let it out yesterday, he vented on her pretty bad, it was hard on her but she of course allowed it completly without any justyfing, she allowed him to express his hurt and dissapointment.
> 
> Only 2 more people to tell, my dad and my sister, they will be supportive though I know. I told my boss and good friend today, he needed to know why I was missing so much work and why I had to leave early etc. He was very understanding and will help anyway possible. I get the distinct feeling hes been there because he knew things that only someone who had been through this would know.
> 
> Thanks for listening and taking your time to post, it means a lot.



it's a hard line to tow

on the one hand you absolutely hate what she did to you and you want to lash out at her
on the other hand you are trying R and you don't want to "chase her away" or beat the horse too much

for me I quantified that I was hateful of her actions and decisions but I didn't hate her

but she stood there and took it, I didn't get abusive, mind you, but I said some angry things to her over the months post dday.


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## morituri

Empty Inside said:


> Two of ours sons, our 17 and 22 year old are walking around acting like nothing has happened and when I try to talk to them about it they seem to want to blow it off like it isn't really a big deal. I am most concerned about their well-being because I think they are suppressing their hurt and anger. *I'm less worried about my 19 y/o who expressed so much anger, hurt and disappointment with me*, then almost immediately became loving, forgiving and kind. He is the son that I butt heads with most of the time. I think he is most like me. The other two are like their Dad and tend to be more even-tempered. I'm not sure that is a good thing, right now.


EI, contrary to popular belief, venting anger is not an effective way to process it. You may be interested in the following article *Angry? Breathing Beats Venting*



> *Angry? Breathing Beats Venting*
> 
> While it is a common assumption that an angry person needs to blow off steam or risk going through the roof, research in psychology shows just the opposite. According to University of Arkansas psychologist Jeffrey M. Lohr, research has consistently showed that venting anger is at best ineffective and in some cases is even harmful.
> 
> “In study after study, the conclusion was the same: Expressing anger does not reduce aggressive tendencies and likely makes it worse,” Lohr and colleagues wrote in “The Pseudopsychology of Venting in the Treatment of Anger: Implications and Alternatives for Mental Health Practice,” which appeared as a chapter in Anger, Aggression, and Interventions for Interpersonal Violence, edited by Timothy A. Cavell and Kenya T. Malcolm of the University of Arkansas.
> 
> Lohr wrote the chapter with Bunmi O. Olatunji, a former UA graduate student and now an assistant professor at Vanderbilt University, and Brad J. Bushman of the University of Michigan. Their study of the results of research in anger expression — going back to one of the earliest experiments in 1959 — convinced the psychologists that the continued use by therapists of venting techniques that lack scientific support “directly challenges the integrity of mental health practice and places the public at risk.”
> 
> The authors begin by noting that, from an evolutionary perspective, anger is a normal emotion that functioned as a response to threats. Anger can be expressed as aggression, or suppressed anger can produce hostility. While Aristotle advocated catharsis or emotional release from negative feelings and Sigmund Freud theorized that repressed emotions could build up and cause psychological symptoms, the notion of catharsis has not held up under scientific examination.
> 
> “If venting really does get anger 'out of your system,’ then venting should result in a reduction of both anger and aggression. Unfortunately for catharsis theory, the results showed precisely the opposite effect,” Lohr and colleagues wrote.
> 
> In study after study, subjects who vented anger against inanimate objects, who vented directly against the person who induced their anger, who vented hostility by playing football or who vented verbally about an employer — all showed more resentment than those who had not vented. In some experiments, venting led to aggression against innocent bystanders. Even those who firmly believed in the value of venting ended up more hostile and aggressive after thumping pillows or engaging in other expressions of anger.
> 
> “What people fail to realize is that the anger would have dissipated had they not vented. Moreover, it would have dissipated more quickly had they not vented and tried to control their anger instead,” the researchers wrote.
> 
> In contrast to the venting experiments, other studies have shown that anger dissipates faster when people take deep breaths, relax or take a time out. Any action that “makes it impossible to sustain the angry state” can help defuse anger.
> 
> The authors note encouraging evidence that cognitive-behavioral therapies are effective for anger reduction, and unlike with venting strategies, no harm from this form of therapy has been documented. The process by which cognitive-behavioral therapy produces beneficial effects is still uncertain, and more research is needed.
> 
> “By using anger interventions in which the evidence for efficacy is based on strong experimental tests, practitioners can hopefully improve patients’ ability to effectively regulate maladaptive anger reactions by promoting efficient coping strategies, and at worse do no harm,” write Lohr and his colleagues.
> 
> Lohr is a professor of psychology in the J. William Fulbright College of Arts and Sciences. In addition to studying affective processes in anxiety and related disorders, he analyzes science and pseudoscience in contemporary psychology.


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## B1

I was driving home yesterday from work and just couldn't go home...I called my sister and asked her to meet me at my dads house. She did. I sat them down and told them about my wifes A. They were great as I expected them to be, they were supportive, helpful and they don't hate my wife. They are there for me now too.
My wife was in full support of this also.

After I got home from that I did feel so much better, to unload it all. Now all my family knows about it. Me and my wife had a very good evening, lots of hugging, talking and more hugs.

Today we agreed not to talk about it until I got home, this will be tough but she has so much to get done and has let a lot of things slip. It's a little hard for me right now becuase I want to email her and talk...but I'm not, However, I am posting here  and this helps.

Morning and evenings are the hardest for some reason. Not sure why.


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## EI

iheartlife said:


> I know others have said this but as you get further in to processing the affair you will need to take breaks from talking about it. Write down your thoughts and questions and save them for an agreed upon time or a day later etc. Also I found if I prefaced my questions with, "I need to ask you..." he had a moment to prepare himself and he was less explosive answering questions.



Thank you so much for this suggestion. I've tried to make sure that I am always available to talk things over with H anytime day or night. I have let my laundry go, my house, myself , pretty much everything. The kids have eaten a lot of fast food in the last few weeks. The hardest time for H is when he is away from me, for obvious reasons. He has a long drive to and from work and, usually, by the time he arrives at work he is fairly upset and starts with the texting/emails. I think the ironic part about that is that we hadn't talked/texted/emailed during the day, while he was working, for years unless there was something very important like kids, bills.... etc., to discuss. We had drifted pretty far apart. 

The problem is that when he is at work, I usually get the bulk of my responsibilities taken care of. A family the size of ours is a small business in and of itself. Since I am starting a new job next week, out of the home, for the first time in 20 years, I have sooooo many things that I must get wrapped up. I haven't been getting them done and time is running out. After reading your post I thought that would be so helpful, at this point. So, I woke H up a few minutes before his alarm went off this morning and loved on him a little bit and asked him if I could have a little time today, at least until lunch time, to get some things accomplished without having to answer lengthy text or emails right away. I said that he could send them and that I would acknowledge them but that we could discuss things a little later on. He said that we could even wait until after he got home from work!  Obviously, if something becomes overwhelming to him and he truly needs to discuss it right away, we had a situation like that yesterday, then I would drop what I'm doing and address it.

His vacation schedule has been on the calendar since the beginning of the year and he is, actually, taking a week off next week.... the week I start my new job. He is going to have to be able to have some patience with me then as I might be putting in more hours than him.

Well, I better get off of here and make good use of my time. H just texted and said that he "made it in to work in good shape." That's a big improvement!


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## Almostrecovered

worst time periods for me were during my commute, left alone by myself with my thoughts in the car and getting all worked up


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## morituri

B1 it is very important that you take good care of yourself via exercise, eating right, staying hydrated, and plenty of rest (if you can't sleep go see your doctor to have some sleeping medication prescribed for you). Force yourself if you have to.


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## Racer

Almostrecovered said:


> worst time periods for me were during my commute, left alone by myself with my thoughts in the car and getting all worked up


Weird little trick that helped me. I would get worked up often; I noticed a pattern that when we were apart, it was so much easier for my mind to ‘go there’. When together, it wasn’t as easy to let my mind wander. So, I got a happy non-triggery family photo by my desk. Just having it there helped me from going into the pit as often. I just look at it and remember that happy vacation for what it was.


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## iheartlife

Empty Inside said:


> Thank you so much for this suggestion. I've tried to make sure that I am always available to talk things over with H anytime day or night. I have let my laundry go, my house, myself , pretty much everything. The kids have eaten a lot of fast food in the last few weeks. The hardest time for H is when he is away from me, for obvious reasons. He has a long drive to and from work and, usually, by the time he arrives at work he is fairly upset and starts with the texting/emails. I think the ironic part about that is that we hadn't talked/texted/emailed during the day, while he was working, for years unless there was something very important like kids, bills.... etc., to discuss. We had drifted pretty far apart.
> 
> The problem is that when he is at work, I usually get the bulk of my responsibilities taken care of. A family the size of ours is a small business in and of itself. Since I am starting a new job next week, out of the home, for the first time in 20 years, I have sooooo many things that I must get wrapped up. I haven't been getting them done and time is running out. After reading your post I thought that would be so helpful, at this point. So, I woke H up a few minutes before his alarm went off this morning and loved on him a little bit and asked him if I could have a little time today, at least until lunch time, to get some things accomplished without having to answer lengthy text or emails right away. I said that he could send them and that I would acknowledge them but that we could discuss things a little later on. He said that we could even wait until after he got home from work!  Obviously, if something becomes overwhelming to him and he truly needs to discuss it right away, we had a situation like that yesterday, then I would drop what I'm doing and address it.


I am glad if that helped a little. 

It may help you if you can understand that you have a full knowledge of 'reality,' whatever that means and as far as recollection allows, from your perspective.

For him, he has had one view of reality, and then another, and then another, and still another, depending on how much he knew at any given time. This fracturing of the past--that it was vastly different from what he thought--is very disorienting. It feels like the world tilted on its axis. It sounds histrionic but it goes to your core of what is truth as you experience it.

Meanwile for you, it gets rather tedious answering the same questions in various different ways. You may worry about being inadvertently inconsistent and accused of lying yet again.

It is all exhausting but there aren't any shortcuts except to take breaks and feel the love between you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Almostrecovered

My wife even suggested that I call her during my commutes when possible, to be honest I sometimes wouldn't do it, just wanted to wallow a bit by myself


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## anonymouskitty

i used to receive a call every two hours and a lot of text messages, EI be pro-active when it comes to rebuilding B1's trust, again your entire recovery period is going to be like a graph that you can view in AR's story


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## B1

iheartlife said:


> I am glad if that helped a little.
> 
> It may help you if you can understand that you have a full knowledge of 'reality,' whatever that means and as far as recollection allows, from your perspective.
> 
> For him, he has had one view of reality, and then another, and then another, and still another, depending on how much he knew at any given time. This fracturing of the past--that it was vastly different from what he thought--is very disorienting. It feels like the world tilted on its axis. It sounds histrionic but it goes to your core of what is truth as you experience it.
> 
> Meanwile for you, it gets rather tedious answering the same questions in various different ways. You may worry about being inadvertently inconsistent and accused of lying yet again.
> 
> It is all exhausting but there aren't any shortcuts except to take breaks and feel the love between you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



This is so true...thank you for your insight and explanation of something we are both going through.


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## morituri

*Emotional Freedom Technique*. Hokey? Don't knock til you try it.


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## B1

A good day overall.

I mentioned the mind movies and she asked me what it was that played in my mind...well, I told her, and she listened while I explained the mind movies, every detail of them, what it was that exactly played over in my mind and the incredible hurt it causes, she just listened while I talked, she never interrupted, never said but you did this or that, she never got defensive or tried to explain why, she just allowed me to get it all out, boy did I do that and it was intense, painful and I sobbed. She held me through it all. It was so painful yet it was such a relief to say the words and let them out. I can't explain it, I'm sure there probably a word for what we did. My eyes still hurt from crying so much but I feel so much better right now. I got to say everything that hurt me and everything that plagued me in great detail. I got the mind movies out in the open and now she understands what it is when I call her and say "the mind movies wont stop, there killing me". 

We are connecting so well right now, I still now it could all go south so fast, it almost did this morning but we got it under control. We had a great dinner at home with the kids and a nice glass of wine, it was a nice evening.


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## anonymouskitty

I have a strong feeling that you guys are going to make it, no slip ups from now on both your parts

All the best guys, trust me you will come out much stronger and that means a more satisfying life


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## EI

anonymouskitty said:


> I have a strong feeling that you guys are going to make it, no slip ups from now on both your parts
> 
> All the best guys, trust me you will come out much stronger and that means a more satisfying life



Thank you for that encouragement! This is the hardest thing H & I have ever been through and only God knows just how many challenges we have had to endure..... the full extent is something that we have chosen not to post on here. 

I know that, sometimes, he and I both wonder if this is worth all of the heartache and hard work. But, at the end of the day, I know, that it is the *only thing* that is worth all of this heartache and hard work. Our children have all expressed their hurt, disappointment and anger. And, then, each of them, have come back to me and told me how much they love me, and that I'm a good mom. I've been humbled and I have been reminded of what unbelievably wonderful children we have raised and so many other amazing things that we have accomplished in our lives together. We're fighting for our family, we're fighting for "us." I'm feeling genuinely blessed tonight. It's been a very long time since I could, honestly, say those words.

This famous line from the move "The Wizard of Oz" sums up my feelings tonight: "and it's that if I ever go looking for my heart's desire again, I won't look any further than my own backyard; because if it isn't there, I never really lost it to begin with."


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## anonymouskitty

If you do commit to each other then it is worth fighting for. On the plus side both of you are actually discussing this and finding ways to make your relationship better.

The first 5,6 months after my D DAY(as in i'm going to D you day) I acted like a bastard dishing out anger and contempt and coldness and then warmth and sex and discussions about the affair in round robin fashion, couple that with bouts of physical abuse( shaking her, pushing her away, I think i left many a bruise on her dainty arms just by holding her tightly).

But my fWW took it and then some and she never complained, until oneday i just woke up and realized what an arse i was and that was when i consciously started controlling my anger and it really helped the both of us to move on. 

Just stay strong and you'll get through this


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## lordmayhem

anonymouskitty said:


> If you do commit to each other then it is worth fighting for. On the plus side both of you are actually discussing this and finding ways to make your relationship better.
> 
> The first 5,6 months after my D DAY(as in i'm going to D you day) I acted like a bastard dishing out anger and contempt and coldness and then warmth and sex and discussions about the affair in round robin fashion, couple that with bouts of physical abuse( shaking her, pushing her away, I think i left many a bruise on her dainty arms just by holding her tightly).
> 
> But my fWW took it and then some and she never complained, until oneday i just woke up and realized what an arse i was and that was when i consciously started controlling my anger and it really helped the both of us to move on.
> 
> Just stay strong and you'll get through this


I could have written those words. Your fWW took it because she's truly remorseful and 100% committed to the marriage and that you're in True R.


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## EI

Tomorrow morning is our first MC session together since D-Day. I have had two IC sessions since D-Day and H has had one. Today was hard. Nothing horrible happened, nothing new, fairly uneventful, but I was feeling a little blue and depressed. I, honestly, think that it has to do with it being 'that time of the month' more than anything else. But, H took it very hard. The last few days I have been comforting him, listening to him, just letting him pour out his heart and soul without defending myself, without trying to justify my actions, without reminding him of his faults during our marriage..... I've just been listening. That doesn't come natural for me (big surprise.) I generate about 100 words for his every 1 on a daily basis. I'm trying to find humor here. If you've been reading our story, you know that he has opened up to his boss, parents, sisters, and a couple that we have known since our teens who are 7 years into a successful R after the H's 10 year A. And, although, we hadn't intended to tell our sons everything, just yet, they now know and we are dealing with that as well. But, the talking has been good for H. It's kind of new for him.

Today, I didn't feel well, had a blinding tension headache, I've been very tired, feeling achy, and am truly starting to feel the horrific emotional repercussions of my actions. The true intense, gut-wrenching pain and guilt is setting in and I am realizing just how selfish and unjustifiable my actions were. Of course, it's difficult to process that pain and it takes me back to the painful place I was in when I began the A and I desperately don't want to "feel" any more pain. But, my family is and I have to, as well. H keeps asking me "why" and I keep repeating the same answers because they are the only answers that I have. I know that he just wants to believe that if I try hard enough that I can come up with an answer that will make it all make sense and then all of this PAIN will go away. So, I go over and over it in my mind and I think back to that time..... then I think of the OM and all that I feel now is such overwhelming sadness. Not that it's over, but that it ever happened. I know that there is nothing that I can do to change it and I have to wonder if my H and I would have ever re-discovered the true depth of our love that had long been buried underneath the tremendous pressures and obligations that our life has served up so far..... most of which we haven't shared here. I never want to go back to that place of loneliness and isolation and I know that my H never wants to be so emotionally closed off from the world that he is unable to feel happiness, sadness, joy, grief...... anything. But, today, when H called on the way home from work (a long drive) and began with "I have a question for you," I was already in so much emotional and physical pain that I kind of lost it. It's really hard on him when I do that and it's very hard on me when I know that a question is coming that will produce an answer that I know is going to hurt him. I can always tell by the tone of his voice or the look on his face when one of "those" questions are coming. Tonight was hard. H thinks that I was pining over the OM, when in reality I have just been reflecting on what I could have done differently..... trying to come up with other endings to the nightmare that I brought upon our family starting last year. 

I shared all of this, mostly because it is therapeutic, but I guess I just want someone to say this is a "normal" unavoidable part of the R process. Good days, bad days, living hour by hour, extreme highs and lows...... We have therapy tomorrow. If you are a believer then please say a prayer for us. If you're not, then just please send some positive thoughts and good wishes our way.


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## Complexity

I'm glad thing aren't taking a turn for the worse between you and your husband EI. The whys signal he hasn't reached the acceptance part yet and is still coming to terms with his new life. The constant questioning would take a toll on anyone regardless of infidelity but I guess these are the momentary realities of your situation. No one said this road was going to be easy and what you're experiencing is indeed normal, you'll read it here a million times. Consider what you're going through the birth pangs of your new relationship. 

Goodluck with the MC.


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## kenmoore14217

"I shared all of this, mostly because it is therapeutic, but I guess I just want someone to say this is a "normal" unavoidable part of the R process. Good days, bad days, living hour by hour, extreme highs and lows...... We have therapy tomorrow. If you are a believer then please say a prayer for us. If you're not, then just please send some positive thoughts and good wishes our way."

we're human, we all make mistakes because that's what humans do. Some are planned, others not but errors occur constantly in our lives. 

When I coached hockey I always taught the players that hockey is not about knocking the be Jeasus out of someone, not about fancy skating or scoring a billion goals, it's all about getting up. That's right, about picking yourself up after you've been knocked down, because sure as chit, you're going to get knocked down.

That's what life is about as well. Picking yourself up and going forward. That's all you can do.


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## anonymouskitty

Its like when you're starting a new exercise regime, at first you feel the shock your body's going through, all the aching muscles and sores, exposed and weak and then you slowly get used to it thinking that it'll be better the results are going to come pretty soon but you're still not quite there yet, no overnight aches now but you're not going to see the results just yet but you're going to keep persevering and one day you wake up and look at yourself in the mirror and voila whats this you see? Muscles? Then you start feeling stronger and you do whatever you can to keep the muscles from being weakened again by scheduling regular workout sessions


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## See_Listen_Love

Empty Inside said:


> ...I shared all of this, mostly because it is therapeutic, but I guess I just want someone to say this is a "normal" unavoidable part of the R process. Good days, bad days, living hour by hour, extreme highs and lows...... We have therapy tomorrow. If you are a believer then please say a prayer for us. If you're not, then just please send some positive thoughts and good wishes our way.


Dear Empty Inside,

It is not only therapeutic for you, it is also a costly lesson, payed for by the both of you. A lesson for everyone who reads this thread. Maybe other people can avoid the mistakes you both made because of insights gained and spread to others, consciously or unconsciously.


I will pray for you in a minute, but first I want to say that I sympathise with you, I believe you are sincere, even when the posts are only an interface between you and the rest of us. Not all will be in these posts, not all needs to be in there, but inside your I feel a very worthwile, good person. Please believe that I am right here. 

Do not overlook that all persons have their own cross to bear, we are not perfect people. But we can be loving people to eachother.

I hope and pray the best for you.


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## warlock07

R is definitely hard. Notice and identify the signs so that you can handle them better.


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## See_Listen_Love

betrayed1 said:


> A good day overall.
> 
> I mentioned the mind movies and she asked me what it was that played in my mind...well, I told her, and she listened while I explained the mind movies, every detail of them, what it was that exactly played over in my mind and the incredible hurt it causes, she just listened while I talked, she never interrupted, never said but you did this or that, she never got defensive or tried to explain why, she just allowed me to get it all out, boy did I do that and it was intense, painful and I sobbed. She held me through it all. *It was so painful yet it was such a relief to say the words and let them out. I can't explain it, I'm sure there probably a word for what we did.* My eyes still hurt from crying so much but I feel so much better right now. I got to say everything that hurt me and everything that plagued me in great detail. I got the mind movies out in the open and now she understands what it is when I call her and say "the mind movies wont stop, there killing me".
> 
> We are connecting so well right now, I still now it could all go south so fast, it almost did this morning but we got it under control. We had a great dinner at home with the kids and a nice glass of wine, it was a nice evening.


Hi Betrayed1,

I think you are on the right track: the pain is immense now, but going through verbalisation of images and feelings wil help your healing process. You have to let you subconscious thoughts come out, via diverse activities. Don't be afraid, you will grow by this all.

I'm impressed by how you handle yourself, you are a great man. 

I hope for the best for the two of you, alone or together.


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## B1

Yesterday was ok, with a little twist of anger and resentment. The mind movies were much much better, hardly any on the drive home. She taped a picture of herself on my steering wheel with an "I love you", it's still there.

I did get upset for a while in the evening and shut off a little when I thought she was pining over OM. That was painful and I was surprised at how quickly I could shut down.. but it was different, I still knew I loved her and I wanted to hug and comfort but I was to mad and to resentful to do that. 
This morning is much better.

When I ask "why" I now know that all I am really looking for is an answer that can make the pain stop, I want a nice perfect little response that just takes it all away. Like an AHA moment.
Well, we all know that's not going to happen. I ask "why" a lot less often now, it's sinking in..She really did this, she really had an A and I am truly hurting over it, and, I really messed up in this marriage myself. 

We are also, really trying to make this work and I think doing a great job at it. I love this little spitfire of a woman and I am so sorry I wasted so many years keeping everything inside and being emotionally absent, I missed a lot of good times with her. 

Well, off to our first MC session. He better fix all our problems today  ...I have a sense of humor too you know.


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## spudster

Betrayed, if you think what you are going through now is bad, wait until you hit the anger stage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

EI
You are feeling the heavy burden of guilt and experiencing the pain from the hurt infidelity jnflicts on your spouse, cbildren and you. Yes even you.

The key to recovery is not to let that pain numb you or stop you from becoming a good loving wife, mom and person again.

Just think how much stronger a woman you will be at the end of this journey you will be.

Just think if your marriage can survive all this hurt how great and strong it will be.

It is up to the two of you.

Keep moving forward and good luck at MC.

HM64
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anonymouskitty

Man you're still coming to terms with the whole thing, be wary of times when the anger takes hold, best thing to do at that time is to just walk away when all the thoughts start forming


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## EI

spudster said:


> Betrayed, if you think what you are going through now is bad, wait until you hit the anger stage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



H and I had our first MC session post D-Day together this morning. Many of you speak of this ominous "anger" like it is an inevitable black cloud that has no other option but to consume and destroy us. Well, I have known this counselor for many years and I know his theory about "anger." Anger is a defense mechanism that we surround ourselves with like a hedge of protection. When one person becomes angry towards another, the other person invariably becomes defensive. It becomes a cycle of finger-pointing and simply adds more layers to the hurt and confusion. There are, at least, 40 words in our therapist's definition of what anger really is, but here are a few that I can remember off the top of my head. They are hurt, sad, fearful, confused, disappointed, isolated, afraid......., etc. When my H becomes angry with me, I get defensive.... we both get mad, things take a turn for the worse. I stomp off and then we both sulk, alone. When he looks into my eyes and says, "I'm hurt, I'm scared, I'm disappointed, I'm fearful that you'll hurt me this way, again, I'm resentful, I'm bitter, I'm in pain..... because I love you and I want us to work this out"...... well, then, I melt. I want to love him, comfort him, hold him, help him heal..... then we get closer to one another and closer to healing. Anger is nothing more than a defense mechanism..... but it, often, keeps the very people away who we really want to be closer to.

We had a great MC session and I only did about 55% of the talking which is a vast improvement over the 99% that I usually do! ;-)


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## anonymouskitty

Oh EI you need to talk talk and talk its the only way, don't falter now


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## mahike

I am glad to hear it went well. My wife and I tend to float up and down good and bad. It is tough to work on since to really start your new life together you have to deal with all the bad stuff that has built up or stuffed down. Keep working on things.


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## EI

anonymouskitty said:


> Man you're still coming to terms with the whole thing, be wary of times when the anger takes hold, best thing to do at that time is to just walk away when all the thoughts start forming





Or come to me, and create new thoughts, new memories, new mind movies of our own...... We email and text all day, now, when he is at work. My H is making me feel so loved.... how could I not want to love him back..... I feel so blessed right now. Someone said on one of our threads a couple of weeks ago that our marriage was dead. They were right..... that marriage is dead. This is a new marriage, a new commitment, a whole new love.... Love is a choice and we are choosing to become vulnerable, once again, and take a chance.... It's like taking your heart out of your body, giving it to someone else and praying that they won't hurt it. It's a huge risk.... you just have to decide if it's worth it. H is worth it to me..... <3


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## warlock07

Since no one is pointing this out, I will do it. betrayed1, since your wife is dealing with the fall out of the affair from kids, family and your friends, sometimes she might need to have a break. She cannot be talking/dealing about the affair all the time. So sometimes she might not be up to it. Don't let such incidents set back your R.


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## EI

warlock07 said:


> Since no one is pointing this out, I will do it. betrayed1, since your wife is dealing with the fall out of the affair from kids, family and your friends, sometimes she might need to have a break. She cannot be talking/dealing about the affair all the time. So sometimes she might not be up to it. Don't let such incidents set back your R.



Warlock, don't get soft on me, now! If H and I handle these conversations correctly, as we are learning to do, then we come away closer than ever. I've missed him soooo much these last several years. As I stated waaaaaaay back in the thread, H went from being kind of a quiet, introverted guy, with a pretty witty sense of humor, to being completely closed off. I looooooove talking with him, now, and I am learning to listen..... he just hasn't wanted to talk for such a long time. I just wasn't feeling well, at all, yesterday and I didn't have it in me.... just for that little while. I had to take some Excedrin, take a nap and regroup for a few hours. H was kind of down, but we talked and cuddled before bed last night and we made up for lots of lost intimate time this morning before our MC. 

Now, he is at work and I have to get off of here for a while and get some things done. 

Thanks for that "little bit of support!" Didn't see that coming..... LOL


----------



## anonymouskitty

Empty Inside said:


> Warlock, don't get soft on me, now!


^this


----------



## warlock07

Empty Inside said:


> Warlock, don't get soft on me, now! If H and I handle these conversations correctly, as we are learning to do, then we come away closer than ever. I've missed him soooo much these last several years. As I stated waaaaaaay back in the thread, H went from being kind of a quiet, introverted guy, with a pretty witty sense of humor, to being completely closed off. I looooooove talking with him, now, and I am learning to listen..... he just hasn't wanted to talk for such a long time. I just wasn't feeling well, at all, yesterday and I didn't have it in me.... just for that little while. I had to take some Excedrin, take a nap and regroup for a few hours. H was kind of down, but we talked and cuddled before bed last night and we made up for lots of lost intimate time this morning before our MC.
> 
> Now, he is at work and I have to get off of here for a while and get some things done.
> 
> Thanks for that "little bit of support!" Didn't see that coming..... LOL



You mentioned that you feel physically exhausted these days. Being tired makes me very irritable.


----------



## B1

warlock07 said:


> Since no one is pointing this out, I will do it. betrayed1, since your wife is dealing with the fall out of the affair from kids, family and your friends, sometimes she might need to have a break. She cannot be talking/dealing about the affair all the time. So sometimes she might not be up to it. Don't let such incidents set back your R.


She was overwhelmed yesterday and I was angry... well really I was hurting and wanted talk time and she was just exhausted and we\I shut down a little bit. I should have backed off some and let her have a break for a while...it can be all consuming right now and she is dealing with kids,family and me. So, Very good point and one I will keep in mind. Thanks.


----------



## Almostrecovered

I thought hysterical bonding was "break time"


----------



## MattMatt

Bandit! Thank God you are back!


----------



## EI

Hey Bandit.45 (welcome back) MattMatt, and all of you other lovely naysayers. I would take the time to respond to your "raining on my parade," but I just checked my Gmail. Hubby wants to get horizontal.... guess it's time for a little hugging and kissing and lovey-dovey stuff. I'd better get all I can before the anger stage sets in, right? ;-) I'll pick my clothes up off of the floor later........


----------



## morituri

Hey EI, believe it or not it would sure be nice to have a successful recovery story because this place is as much fun as a funeral home.


----------



## morituri

bandit.45 said:


> Yep. Except this is a funeral home where the crematorium has broken and the mortician can't afford to fix it, so there are hundreds of dead bodies buried in shallow graves in the woods behind us.


:rofl:


----------



## BigLiam

Empty Inside said:


> Hey Bandit.45 (welcome back) MattMatt, and all of you other lovely naysayers. I would take the time to respond to your "raining on my parade," but I just checked my Gmail. Hubby wants to get horizontal.... guess it's time for a little hugging and kissing and lovey-dovey stuff. I'd better get all I can before the anger stage sets in, right? ;-) I'll pick my clothes up off of the floor later........


Let's see the e-mail We may be able to decode it.


----------



## BigLiam

morituri said:


> Hey EI, believe it or not it would sure be nice to have a successful recovery story because this place is as much fun as a funeral home.


Well, you recovered nicely, mori. And, I think it is obvious to everyone that I have completely normalized. I worry about AR, though. And, this poor Beowulf fellow...


----------



## B1

bandit.45 said:


> Just caught up on your thread.
> 
> You have no idea what anger is yet my friend. Right now you are still in shock from the discovery of the betrayal. It will take you another one or two months to come out of the I.C. unit and actually process what has happened.
> 
> After you have come out of this stage, and you are able to stand back and look at what your wife did objectively, in all it's ugly entirety, then the REAL rage will hit you like a typhoon. Words are going to come flying out of your mouth at your wife that you or her have never heard uttered before. You better prepare yourself for this because it is coming.
> 
> The process you are going through now is the same one I went through eighteen years ago after my ex's first affair. Count on it to happen.


We all process things differently, we all deal with pain differently, so I disagree here, our therapist does too. He thinks we are well ahead of the game, we are doing things right, connecting, talking..lots and lots of talking. Neither of us ignore a single emotion, we talk it out, we hold nothing back.

Well see I guess. I wont hold back a post if this rage does happen. I don't see why it has to be in stone though, sounds kind of silly to act like everyone processes an affair the same way. 

btw. I have already uttered words I am so sorry for and I don't ever plan on repeating them again to her.


----------



## EI

BigLiam said:


> Let's see the e-mail We may be able to decode it.


Are you making a funny, Big Liam? I think I had sent H an email earlier sayin' "Whatcha doin?" His response was simply "Waitin' for you." I took that as an invitation....


----------



## BigLiam

Empty Inside said:


> Are you making a funny, Big Liam? I think I had sent H an email earlier sayin' "Whatcha doin?" His response was simply "Waitin' for you." I took that as an invitation....


Ahh, the wonders of testosterone therapy. :smthumbup:


----------



## morituri

EI and B1, this is not about the past- which cannot be changed -but about the two of you fighting your egos. I envy the two of you.


----------



## warlock07

Buzzkill alert!!!!!!!!!!!


EI and B1, you guys should read dingerdad and Allybabe_18(hers particularly) threads if you can. Just a grim reminder of what can possibly happen in a failed R. 

The wife's(WS) posts were full of remorse and honesty if you can say that. She fell back into the affair and took it underground..


----------



## B1

warlock07 said:


> Buzzkill alert!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> EI and B1, you guys should read dingerdad and Allybabe_18(hers particularly) threads if you can. Just a grim reminder of what can possibly happen in a failed R.
> 
> The wife's(WS) posts were full of remorse and honesty if you can say that. She fell back into the affair and took it underground..


I honestly do not see that. She has made a promise to never do that to us again, that if she is going to she will just say she wants out and wants a D, we have both agreed to this.

Also, keep in mind had I been the husband I should have been this NEVER would have happened. Had I been there physically and emotionally, and watered her garden from time to time then this A just flat out would not have happened. We would have sex maybe twice a year, When I say I was shut down please understand, I WAS SHUT DOWN.

No one on this board has a clue as to the cold hearted, un-emotional sob I was. Sure I was nice, didn't abuse physically or verbally, but I was completly absent from our marriage. She point blank told me she would find happiness with or witout me...now if I fall back into that cold sob I know she's gone and I loose her period. If she can't do this R then she simply says she can't and we D. Same with me, if it's not working then we D.
No need to cheat by either one of us. I choose to believe her.
We are in a better position now also, so D is not impossible like it was before. Right now were headed to R and I feel certain that's where we should be. 

Sure I am fearful of the bumps and twists and turns on this road but We have weathered many a bad days, months and even years, I think we can weather this one too. We keep talking, commnicating, going to MC and IC and be open and honest we have a great chance at R. 

I just don't see her going underground, maybe I'm a fool warlock07 but I just don't see it. But I will and I know she will read those posts, maybe we can glean a little info from it to help us?


----------



## Almostrecovered

betrayed1 said:


> I just don't see her going underground, maybe I'm a fool warlock07 but I just don't see it. But I will and I know she will read those posts, maybe we can glean a little info from it to help us?



I get the feeling

but please make sure you do your own verification (thru spying/snooping)- at the very least to help rebuild trust

I know it sounds crazy to say that

but the more you see she is doing what she is saying the more you regain your trust in her


----------



## B1

Almostrecovered said:


> I get the feeling
> 
> but please make sure you do your own verification (thru spying/snooping)- at the very least to help rebuild trust
> 
> I know it sounds crazy to say that
> 
> but the more you see she is doing what she is saying the more you regain your trust in her


Not crazy...

I make my living in IT 

What I know is that she, so far, is being completly honest and true. She knows that I can and will snoop too, I have all her pswds even to her personal journals, I have remote software installed etc., she is see through right now and is doing that to help me rebuild trust.
Lan line phone records are on the way and cell records are always available to me online. I also have an online account with net detective to trace phone numbers if they are unfamiliar.


----------



## warlock07

The think my post was more aimed towards EI more than you.


----------



## EI

warlock07 said:


> The think my post was more aimed towards EI more than you.



Warlock, I am absolutely paying attention to every word you are saying. You have earned my respect in the sense that you have been hurt and are cynical but you do truly hope for the best for people whether together or apart. You've experienced a lot of your own hurts.... you've read a lot here. I don't want a false R any more than you veteran TAM readers want to see, as I'm sure you have seen time and time again here on this board. 

I just told my H this morning that I thought it was important that we spend more time talking and digging deeper and not just rug sweeping in a happy land of hysterical bonding. Although the hysterical bonding is wonderful and the intimacy is a big part of what was missing from our life for many years. I know, now, that even the lack of intimacy was a symptom of much deeper issues. 

I'm paying attention.... I am reading the stories of others on this board and I am trying to learn everything that I can. We all have our own individual stories. We are all different as far as our healing capabilities go. Some individuals are stronger than others. I am NOT taking anything for granted. I made vows..... I broke them. I know that once broken it would be nearly impossible to trust without hesitation ever again. It might truly be impossible.... and maybe that's okay. Maybe we should all realize that marriage, life, everything is something that should not be taken for granted. We should never assume that because we took vows that that is enough. Vows are more than words. They are a promise to keep on loving, cherishing, honoring, forsaking all others......, etc. 

Anyway, gotta run, gotta take our special needs son to visit a new day center that will accommodate the extended hours now that I will be working.

I don't think that anyone ever gets over this type of thing. At best, we can hope to get through it.... together and happy!

Everyone have a great day and I'll be back later!


----------



## EI

betrayed1 said:


> No one on this board has a clue as to the cold hearted, un-emotional sob I was. Sure I was nice, didn't abuse physically or verbally, but I was completly absent from our marriage. She point blank told me she would find happiness with or witout me...now if I fall back into that cold sob I know she's gone and I loose her period. If she can't do this R then she simply says she can't and we D. Same with me, if it's not working then we D.


I've got to say something. You were NEVER a cold hearted sob. You did shut down emotionally and physically. First on me, then I felt that you even were shutting down on the kids. It was then that I realized that it wasn't about me.... it was something deep inside of you and I couldn't fix it. I began to feel "entitled" to find my own happiness and I think you felt "entitled" to continue wallowing in self-misery and you just believed that no matter what I was saying that I would stay there with you. I told you that I couldn't.... but you didn't listen. I didn't see a way out. We have to figure out what we should have done at that point last year in order to make sure that it never happens again. We were, both, so broken. 

We're both listening now. Let's see if we can really fix this.... I want to and I think you do, too! But, let's do the work..... no rug sweeping, okay?


----------



## anonymouskitty

You know EI when I first started reading your posts, I felt sure that you were a CAKE EATER, now i'm having to take those words back don't disappoint us here we're rooting for you and more importantly don't disappoint each other  

All the best

Kit


----------



## EI

morituri said:


> EI and B1, this is not about the past- which cannot be changed -but about the two of you fighting your egos. I envy the two of you.



Thank Morituri, I'll take any encouragement that I can get!


----------



## Almostrecovered

anonymouskitty said:


> You know EI when I first started reading your posts, I felt sure that you were a CAKE EATER, now i'm having to take those words back don't disappoint us here we're rooting for you and more importantly don't disappoint each other
> 
> All the best
> 
> Kit


seriously this is the most surprising turnaround I've seen, I'm cautiously optimistic now


----------



## EI

anonymouskitty said:


> You know EI when I first started reading your posts, I felt sure that you were a CAKE EATER, now i'm having to take those words back don't disappoint us here we're rooting for you and more importantly don't disappoint each other
> 
> All the best
> 
> Kit


Thank you, thank you, thank you..... so much.... we're gonna stick around here. It really helps us to stay grounded some how. It's nice to know that there are people rooting for us. I'm not sure why..... but it helps!


----------



## iheartlife

Almostrecovered said:


> I get the feeling
> 
> but please make sure you do your own verification (thru spying/snooping)- at the very least to help rebuild trust
> 
> I know it sounds crazy to say that
> 
> but the more you see she is doing what she is saying the more you regain your trust in her


I agree, I know it's hard to believe, but our wise marriage counselor said this was a must. It relieves your anxiety and gives the loyal spouse a chance to prove that they are trustworthy. It is obviously not a long-term solution to affairs. It is only a way of holding a cheater to their word in the short term so you can get a sense of whether or not they are truly recommitting. 

Unfortunately, a shockingly large number of cheaters will totally pay lip service to reconciliation once caught, but the lure of the affair will pull them back within a matter of weeks. That second time they will take it deep underground. The cheater gains a lot from both relationships co-existing--that is the point. If they were truly choosing one person over the other, there would be no such thing as cake-eating.

I am cautiously optimistic that this is not the case here, your wife has sent the Not Contact letter and there are other issues that would strongly suggest she would not go back. But we are all human, the spirit may be willing but sometimes the flesh is weak.


----------



## EI

iheartlife said:


> I agree, I know it's hard to believe, but our wise marriage counselor said this was a must. It relieves your anxiety and gives the loyal spouse a chance to prove that they are trustworthy. It is obviously not a long-term solution to affairs. It is only a way of holding a cheater to their word in the short term so you can get a sense of whether or not they are truly recommitting.
> 
> Unfortunately, a shockingly large number of cheaters will totally pay lip service to reconciliation once caught, but the lure of the affair will pull them back within a matter of weeks. That second time they will take it deep underground. The cheater gains a lot from both relationships co-existing--that is the point. If they were truly choosing one person over the other, there would be no such thing as cake-eating.
> 
> I am cautiously optimistic that this is not the case here, your wife has sent the Not Contact letter and there are other issues that would strongly suggest she would not go back. But we are all human, the spirit may be willing but sometimes the flesh is weak.



You have made very good points here and I am paying attention. There are days where we have more good hours than bad hours now. We've even had a few days that were amazing for most of the day with only a few bad moments thrown in. But, I will not take them for granted. There is always that heavy dark cloud that looms over us. It's never completely gone. I don't have all of the answers, yet. What if I never do? I desperately need to go back in time and put myself in that place, with all of those horrible circumstances that were surrounding us. While our current financial situation is still not great, it is far better than it was last year. We have paid off a few things and I am going back to work for the first time in 20 years. We had major medical issues with two of our sons, not even our handicapped son, to deal with last year, we had legal issues (maybe we'll share that at some point,) we have been struggling the last few years to keep our home where we have lived for the past 16 years. Due to medical bills, large family, etc... we borrowed all of the equity (which was quite substantial) out of our home over a several year period. Then property values dropped and as a result we are seriously underwater. We have made the very difficult decision to let this house go..... It just seems that any one of the major issues that we have faced (as these are just a few) could throw even a good marriage into a state of turmoil. But, as you all know, our marriage had become non-existent in every sense of the word. We were roommates, co-parents.... not much more. The only time we communicated, at all, was to discuss the kids or the bills.... and both, at the time, were difficult subjects. So, then we became hostile roommates and co-parents. 

I am not trying to rehash or justify my actions.... I regret them greatly. I am trying to rewrite a different ending. I know that I can't change the past.... but I want to believe in our future. 

I wasn't trying to hurt my husband and children. I was alone, and isolated, feeling so hopeless and helpless. My best friend was dealing with a terminally ill step-son, so I wasn't able to lean on her for support. I don't want to justify my actions. I want to know that given an equally horrific set of circumstances that I would never do that again. At this point, seeing the pain, anguish and devastation on my H's face, I really did not believe that he loved me.... seeing the hurt that I have inflicted on our children and our extended family would be enough to keep me from ever doing that again. But, at that time, and this is just me being honest, it felt like a lifeline. OM listened to me, he let me vent, shared stories of his own, we had a past, although we had been kids at the time. It was a very powerful drug. I don't want to be that weak ever again. But, what separates those who make it into a healthy R and those who don't. I want to make it. I didn't think I was capable of what I did.... but, I did it. I can't change the past. For those who struggled, but made it in the long run..... what is the answer? That's why I pour my soul out on this board.


----------



## iheartlife

Empty Inside said:


> We had major medical issues with two of our sons, not even our handicapped son, to deal with last year, we had legal issues (maybe we'll share that at some point,) we have been struggling the last few years to keep our home where we have lived for the past 16 years. Due to medical bills, large family, etc... we borrowed all of the equity (which was quite substantial) out of our home over a several year period. Then property values dropped and as a result we are seriously underwater. We have made the very difficult decision to let this house go..... It just seems that any one of the major issues that we have faced (as these are just a few) could throw even a good marriage into a state of turmoil. But, as you all know, our marriage had become non-existent in every sense of the word.
> 
> ***********
> 
> OM listened to me, he let me vent, shared stories of his own, we had a past, although we had been kids at the time. It was a very powerful drug. I don't want to be that weak ever again. But, what separates those who make it into a healthy R and those who don't. I want to make it.


On the second point, this is what my husband said in MC last night: "I never, ever thought I'd be the type of person who would have an affair. That thought never occurred to me. My eyes have now been opened--I am vulnerable to it, I am human in that way. So now I CHOOSE to avoid putting myself in any position that would allow me to enter into an affair again." 

That is really all that you can do. Know the warning signs long, long before you cross any boundaries. For example, there is a soccer dad I know who I can tell finds me attractive, and I enjoy his company too. There is no doubt in my mind that it could slip into something it never should be. So what do I do? I only see him in public. I never seek him out. I do not communicate with him by phone, email, or text, although there are plenty of logical reasons to do so. I make sure there are people who know us at least watching us if we're in conversation. The topics stay very light and I would never discuss my marriage with him nor would I allow him to discuss his (he never has tried). It's too bad I can't enjoy a deeper friendship with him, right? But then why would I need a deeper friendship with that man anyhow when I have plenty of friends? The answer is I DON'T need him as a friend. So I can enjoy the fact that there are men that still find me attractive and enjoy my company--in a healthy way that allows me to go home and love my husband for the good man that he is. And because I love him--AND MYSELF--I am not going to do something stupid like ruin the lives of at least 9 people (or maybe more like 15 when you start adding grandparents). You've been there, and bought the t-shirt. What good did it do you? You can see for yourself that affairs don't solve any problems, they just create new ones.

Back to your first point--I'm sure this has been asked and answered--what are your options if you and your husband want to get away? Is there anyone to care for your son? Even if you have to sleep in a tent or a dive motel to have some alone time. Or maybe you know someone who can lend a vacation home to the two of you? What are your options for getting away about once every 3 mos. on a going forward basis.


----------



## EI

And more important than anything else.... how can I make his pain go away. Now, he is all of the good things that I loved about the man that I married.... but, honestly, he is so much more, more than I ever thought possible. Is this real? Is this normally quiet, inhibited, slightly awkward, sometimes funny, kind of nerdy (in a really good way) loyal, dependable, honorable, responsible guy, really this romantic, passionate, sensitive, attentive, husband? Or is this typical of BS, especially men? I am scared of everything right now. I don't even know if that made sense. It just seems that there is so much at stake. Help......


----------



## iheartlife

Empty Inside said:


> And more important than anything else.... how can I make his pain go away. Now, he is all of the good things that I loved about the man that I married.... but, honestly, he is so much more, more than I ever thought possible. Is this real? Is this normally quiet, inhibited, slightly awkward, sometimes funny, kind of nerdy (in a really good way) loyal, dependable, honorable, responsible guy, really this romantic, passionate, sensitive, attentive, husband? Or is this typical of BS, especially men? I am scared of everything right now. I don't even know if that made sense. It just seems that there is so much at stake. Help......


There is also a great book, The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work, by John Gottman. It is a slender book that is filled to the brim with ideas for making a marriage stronger and stronger. For example, he has the weekly 'marital poop' test (hate the name, love the idea) which is a weekly assessment of the health of the marriage. He has another section with long lists of stuff to see how well you really know your spouse--that can be fun because just one item on the list can get you talking for an hour if it's something you didn't know about them.

You can't take away his pain, you just have to stand steady and show him that you aren't going away. He is still in the very early stages. Read through the stages of grief again if you don't know them so you can prepare yourself, anger and depression being the worst ones and they come AFTER shock. This is why good professional counselors are so important, because some of this is more than you can overcome all by yourselves.


----------



## EI

iheartlife said:


> Back to your first point--I'm sure this has been asked and answered--what are your options if you and your husband want to get away? Is there anyone to care for your son? Even if you have to sleep in a tent or a dive motel to have some alone time. Or maybe you know someone who can lend a vacation home to the two of you? What are your options for getting away about once every 3 mos. on a going forward basis.



We have had practically no options with our son since my parents passed.... 8 & 12 years ago. Our daughter and S-I-L used to take him for a weekend, occasionally, but S-I-L works nights, attends school during the day and our daughter is home with their new baby. So, for over a year and a half we have had no breaks, at all. Over the last 16 years (there is a reason for that number..... maybe we'll get to that later) we have had no more than a half-dozen breaks. It's difficult getting a baby-sitter for a 23 year old man who wears diapers.... that's the reality of it. Overnights.... they just don't happen. 

But, and this is the amazing part, H's sister travels a great deal for her job and earns airline and hotel points. I just had a birthday, so H's family is using points and a little extra and sending us away next weekend. We are just staying in a hotel downtown, but there is a lot to do in this city. We could have gone out of town, but I'm not anxious to leave the 19 & 17 year old unattended from a distance. S-I-L has a one week break from summer classes and he and our daughter have volunteered (without us asking) to take our special needs son for that weekend. I feel bad about that, though. They don't have a lot of break time, either.

I'm hoping that we will have a lovely weekend, but our lives are just so dang unpredictable, who knows what might happen between now and then. Keeping my fingers crossed!!!


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Empty Inside said:


> And more important than anything else.... how can I make his pain go away. Now, he is all of the good things that I loved about the man that I married.... but, honestly, *he is so much more, more than I ever thought possible.* *Is this real? *Is this normally quiet, inhibited, slightly awkward, sometimes funny, kind of nerdy (in a really good way) loyal, dependable, honorable, responsible guy, really this romantic, passionate, sensitive, attentive, husband? Or is this typical of BS, especially men? I am scared of everything right now. I don't even know if that made sense. It just seems that there is so much at stake. Help......


I think he understands that given your complex and hard years of struggling he also has a responsibility in your present situation. A partial responsibility for what you did and how you feel now. That is what he tries to make up for, and also because he still loves you after all (again).

So accept his gifts to you I would say.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Empty Inside said:


> We have had practically no options with our son since my parents passed......It's difficult getting a baby-sitter for a 23 year old man who wears diapers.... that's the reality of it. Overnights.... they just don't happen.


Are there no alternatives like places where your son can have short stay's, there might be programs somewhere around you? Here in The Netherlands there are these day's good possibilities so the parents can go on holiday's or weekends.

My wife and I have been in a similar situation.


----------



## MattMatt

You know, B1, you remind me of stories about people who fall asleep, and sleep for years, until one day they suddenly wake up and are back to normal. Trouble is, decades have passed by.

Having a spouse who suddenly wakes up must come as a shock.

Is it possible that, years ago, you had some kind of a breakdown that went unnoticed and untreated so that, whilst you appeared normal, you in effect shut down?

The problem is that with an illness like that, the victim does not know they are ill and is not aware treatment is required.

Good luck in your new, awake relationship, you too!


----------



## B1

MattMatt said:


> You know, B1, you remind me of stories about people who fall asleep, and sleep for years, until one day they suddenly wake up and are back to normal. Trouble is, decades have passed by.
> 
> Having a spouse who suddenly wakes up must come as a shock.
> 
> Is it possible that, years ago, you had some kind of a breakdown that went unnoticed and untreated so that, whilst you appeared normal, you in effect shut down?
> 
> The problem is that with an illness like that, the victim does not know they are ill and is not aware treatment is required.
> 
> Good luck in your new, awake relationship, you too!



I was in counseling back in 2001 for a short time...that counselor said he thought I was suffering from post traumatic stress disorder, from something that happened long ago and I was definitely suppressing emotions in 2001.
He worked with me for a while and really started to open me up, and I went through times where I cried for the first time since childhood...then I just couldn't afford to go anymore so I stopped in the middle of it. And I went right back into suppressing everything.

Right now I couldn't suppress if I had to, everything comes out..tears flow sometime for no apparent reason other times for very good reasons. I can cry at a hallmark commercial now..When angry, I tell my wife I am mad at her, I tell her when I am hurt because of her, When I think "I love her" I tell her, I don't keep it inside. I just don't hold it in anymore and even though it's painful, I would rather be this way then shutoff any day of the week.


----------



## morituri

B1 it is one thing for each one of us takes responsibility for our actions and quite another to engage in self-hatred. Acceptance of your shortcomings as a husband is the first step to change, and forgiving ones self.

E1, don't despair and feel that your efforts to help B1 to heal seem ineffective for they are far from that. By helping him, you help your own healing.

BOTH of you must continue to fight the anger and bitterness by *immediately recognizing them and confronting them*. Your healing as individuals and a couple depend on it.


----------



## t_hopper_2012

Empty Inside,

You stated:



Empty_Inside said:


> It's difficult getting a baby-sitter for a 23 year old man who wears diapers.... that's the reality of it.


We have friends who have a son with disabilities. They have discovered a state agency that will pay for respite hours. The reimbursement rates are high enough to hire a skilled person (LNA or better). Is such a thing available in your state?

Given that your son is 23, you probably could give lectures on what is and is not available from your state - so this probably was a stupid question.


----------



## t_hopper_2012

Empty Inside said:


> And more important than anything else.... how can I make his pain go away. Now, he is all of the good things that I loved about the man that I married.... but, honestly, he is so much more, more than I ever thought possible. Is this real? Is this normally quiet, inhibited, slightly awkward, sometimes funny, kind of nerdy (in a really good way) loyal, dependable, honorable, responsible guy, really this romantic, passionate, sensitive, attentive, husband? Or is this typical of BS, especially men? I am scared of everything right now. I don't even know if that made sense. It just seems that there is so much at stake. Help......


My guess: it's him. Always has been, always will be.

Most lives are filled with burdens. Some are easy to bear. Some seem impossible. I believe that your husband of old (the shut down one that did not fulfill your needs) was just reacting to your life's burdens in the best way that he knew how - keep the shoulder to the wheel, just keep pushing. Along the way, he probably began to see you as more of a "fellow burden sharer" and less as his romantic partner.

The scales have fallen from his eyes and he can now see. As I said in a much earlier post, there might have been a much, much less painful way to accomplish this end - but that is a road not taken.

The thing that you two have to do now is to avoid falling into the old traps. Don't lose sight of each other as you push the boulders along in your life.


----------



## EI

t_hopper_2012 said:


> My guess: it's him. Always has been, always will be.
> 
> Most lives are filled with burdens. Some are easy to bear. Some seem impossible. I believe that your husband of old (the shut down one that did not fulfill your needs) was just reacting to your life's burdens in the best way that he knew how - keep the shoulder to the wheel, just keep pushing. Along the way, he probably began to see you as more of a "fellow burden sharer" and less as his romantic partner.
> 
> The scales have fallen from his eyes and he can now see. As I said in a much earlier post, there might have been a much, much less painful way to accomplish this end - but that is a road not taken.
> 
> 
> 
> The thing that you two have to do now is to avoid falling into the old traps. Don't lose sight of each other as you push the boulders along in your life.



Thank you so much for both of your posts. Regarding the first one, our son is covered under an HCB Waiver so we do have certain services available to us. He attends an adult day care center and there are other respite hours available. Although, overnight care is not readily available. Our son is, both, mentally and physically disabled but his physical disabilities are more extreme. As a Mom, I have always been somewhat hesitant to have someone take him from our home, but then again, we have other children, as well, and we always felt uneasy having someone here when we weren't. I'm sure that we could and should have utilized more services over the years than we have, through church and other agencies. Since our children are grown, now, they've stayed home many evenings so that we could go out to dinner or a movie on occasion. But, the truth is, just getting H out to do much of anything, other than dinner, has never really been easy. I have a spirit that craves adventure. I want to zipline and parachute from a plane (my Daddy was a paratrooper in World War II,) but I'd settle for a night out listening to a local band and dancing. I feel like I've spent my whole life taking care of others and I had truly believed that when the kids were grown it would be "our time." In the last few years, H made it clear that he was ready to "slow down," and I had been waiting all of this time for him to "get started." 

So anyway, here we are. I love my husband, I always have.... but the "in love" part had truly withered and died from a lack of nurturing. But, the way that he handled the revelation of my affair, took me waaaaaay back, back to the earlier days of our relationship and marriage and I began to remember those amazing qualities about him that drew me to him in the beginning. I dated lots of guys in my teens, but he was the only one that I knew I HAD to marry. His quiet strength, his goodness, his integrity, he was good to the core of his soul. Life got hard, depression set in, low testosterone, one never-ending crises after another. H & I went to a wedding for a very dear friend tonight. It was a second wedding for the bride and the groom. They had said similar vows to others many years before. It was, both, beautiful and heartbreaking at the same time. I couldn't stop crying. I can't help but to feel that H & I are a new man and a new wife and this is a new marriage. We failed at the first one. In many ways we both broke our vows. I really, really, really hope that we can make it this time.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Becoming co-workers in your own home-hospital situation is a common danger for husbands and wives. You end up living in a (neccessary because of all the work!) 24/7 factory of running a house hold and see to everybody's needs.

Then people get burn-out and depression. Romance dies in many times, not because anyone's fault, because of the circumstances. You know eachother from only work, problems and crisises. There is no room for much more.

Actually it is a wonder how you managed to come so far.


----------



## Acabado

EI, as you are going to work again soon I can't stress you enough to watch carefully your personal boundaires. I've seen this scenario of SAHM who finnaly goes to work again and start enjoying he flattery, the compliments, the unprofessional contact, the after work drinks, the bashing your husband... and putting your two feet into the slippery slope.
Don't base your boundaires in how much in love you are with your husband now or how the marriage is improving, the ups & downs... Self respect is the key.


----------



## Deejo

betrayed1 said:


> She held me through it all. It was so painful yet it was such a relief to say the words and let them out. I can't explain it, I'm sure there probably a word for what we did.


I call it 'emotional vomiting'.

Nice when there is someone there who cares about you. Even better if it is the person you are trying to rebuild your bond with.
I think it's important that you both know how your story touches so many other hearts.

Whether the two of you decide that reconciliation is what is best for you or not, I wanted to say thank you for having the courage to be so emotionally open and honest, with a few thousand of your impersonal friends. I say that tongue in cheek, but mean it sincerely.


----------



## B1

A little tougher day yesterday, I was down and sad a lot, we argued some, talked a lot and the day ended ok. I have to snap out of this fog of sadness though, I need for my family to see a strong father and I need to be that husband and father they need me to be. But this A really did a number on me. Yesterday I was plagued with mind movies that literally made me sick to my stomach, it was like being kicked in the gut with each one. They are not near as bad as a week ago, but they just come out of know where and at really odd times. They are so painful and really shatter my world at the time. 

My wife had a bad day to yesterday, she was down a lot so we really couldn't be there for each other very much and that made us both a little angry at each other. We needed support but were both hurting to bad to give it 100%.


----------



## B1

Acabado said:


> EI, as you are going to work again soon I can't stress you enough to watch carefully your personal boundaires. I've seen this scenario of SAHM who finnaly goes to work again and start enjoying he flattery, the compliments, the unprofessional contact, the after work drinks, the bashing your husband... and putting your two feet into the slippery slope.
> Don't base your boundaires in how much in love you are with your husband now or how the marriage is improving, the ups & downs... Self respect is the key.


I thought about this also..thanks for bringing it to light.


----------



## B1

Deejo said:


> I call it 'emotional vomiting'.
> 
> Nice when there is someone there who cares about you. Even better if it is the person you are trying to rebuild your bond with.
> I think it's important that you both know how your story touches so many other hearts.
> 
> Whether the two of you decide that reconciliation is what is best for you or not, I wanted to say thank you for having the courage to be so emotionally open and honest, with a few thousand of your impersonal friends. I say that tongue in cheek, but mean it sincerely.


Your very welcome, and thanks for allowing us to talk this out here. It has been therapy away from therapy, with a lot of good advice, articles, and links.

We will try to keep posting and letting people know the ups and downs on our road to R. Were are both committed to this now. Even though there are hours when you just want to give up..but we hang on and work through those hours. Thank goodness there are not whole days like that. We still talk a lot throughout each day, and yes, we still cry daily, get mad at some point daily and hug daily. It's a whole range of emotions throughout the day. In the end though, I love her and she loves me, we just have to get through this mess we both made.


----------



## anonymouskitty

Don't worry B1 this phase is "crazy" you're doing fine.


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## EI

Acabado said:


> EI, as you are going to work again soon I can't stress you enough to watch carefully your personal boundaires. I've seen this scenario of SAHM who finnaly goes to work again and start enjoying he flattery, the compliments, the unprofessional contact, the after work drinks, the bashing your husband... and putting your two feet into the slippery slope.
> Don't base your boundaires in how much in love you are with your husband now or how the marriage is improving, the ups & downs... Self respect is the key.



The work environment that I will be in will be mostly women and I am, likely, the second oldest in the office. So, if there are any "compliments" to be passed around they probably won't be coming my way. LOL I am certain that there won't be any after work drinks (not that H would tolerate any of that)..... with my current level of fatigue and not having worked outside of the home for nearly 20 years, I'll be lucky if I can manage to get to the grocery, make some kind of dinner and get the laundry done. TBH, I'm exhausted just thinking about it. But, I do agree with what you are saying about boundaries. The truth is, I was faithful for 27 years of marriage and 3 years of dating. Until it happened, I never could have imagined that it would happen. With that having been said, I know now to be much more careful in ways that I never thought about before. I, also, know firsthand the devastating consequences to my H and family if I violate those boundaries.


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## iheartlife

betrayed1: are you in IC?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

iheartlife said:


> betrayed1: are you in IC?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, I am. We are in MC and both are in IC also.


----------



## AngryandUsed

Good lucks, EI and B1


----------



## B1

Hard day yesterday, she had a trigger that set her off, and it went down hill from there. We did end the day with a hug. But this morning I am really struggling, wishing this hurt would just go away, crying a lot, wish I wasn't. 
It's only 3 weeks since dday, So I guess I can't expect too much. Still not angry, overall sad to hurt to ok and back to hurt, I can still feel detached some and when we talk about it I can feel almost like I'm not present. 

Things like, she was in his driveway, on his porch, her little hands were knocking on his door, her car was parked at his house....what does his house look like, silly things like this are plaguing me now, not sure what it's all about, but it sure does hurt. 

Sure hope today turns out better then it is now...


----------



## happyman64

betrayed1 said:


> Hard day yesterday, she had a trigger that set her off, and it went down hill from there. We did end the day with a hug. But this morning I am really struggling, wishing this hurt would just go away, crying a lot, wish I wasn't.
> It's only 3 weeks since dday, So I guess I can't expect too much. Still not angry, overall sad to hurt to ok and back to hurt, I can still feel detached some and when we talk about it I can feel almost like I'm not present.
> 
> Things like, she was in his driveway, on his porch, her little hands were knocking on his door, her car was parked at his house....what does his house look like, silly things like this are plaguing me now, not sure what it's all about, but it sure does hurt.
> 
> Sure hope today turns out better then it is now...


B1

You make today turn out better! Get your wife and kids, get in the car and go out for breakfast. Or look at the paper find some event that looks like fun and go do it with your family if you can....

Take matters into your own hands and make the day turn out the way you want it.

You will feel better and so will your wife and family.

HM64


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## morituri

Recovery is somewhat akin to going on a diet, it is a one day at a time process that cannot and should not be rushed. Read the information below over and over again so you can challenge the negative feelings that take over you at times.

*3 Ways to Erase Post-Affair Anger*
*Cheated On, Tortured by Images*
*http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/40190-feeding-affair-image-beast.html#post593486*
*Erase Obsessive Affair Images (in 30 Minutes)*


----------



## Beowulf

Empty Inside said:


> The work environment that I will be in will be mostly women and I am, likely, the second oldest in the office. So, if there are any "compliments" to be passed around they probably won't be coming my way. LOL I am certain that there won't be any after work drinks (not that H would tolerate any of that)..... with my current level of fatigue and not having worked outside of the home for nearly 20 years, I'll be lucky if I can manage to get to the grocery, make some kind of dinner and get the laundry done. TBH, I'm exhausted just thinking about it. But, I do agree with what you are saying about boundaries. The truth is, I was faithful for 27 years of marriage and 3 years of dating. Until it happened, I never could have imagined that it would happen. With that having been said, I know now to be much more careful in ways that I never thought about before. I, also, know firsthand the devastating consequences to my H and family if I violate those boundaries.


EI,

Morrigan found herself in a situation that could have led down a truly dangerous path. A coworker was "fishing" and she just didn't see it. But because we are constantly communicating she had told me about these incidents and after prompting her to post here on TAM she came to realize what was really happening. I cannot stress the communication aspect of a relationship enough. Had she not told me things could have spiraled out of control very easily. Had she not told me, when I did find out (and as you know we always find out) I would have seriously question her honesty and whether my trust in her was misplaced. Honesty, communication and very strong boundaries are extremely important in any relationship but even more so when spouses return to work after an affair.


----------



## Beowulf

betrayed1 said:


> Hard day yesterday, she had a trigger that set her off, and it went down hill from there. We did end the day with a hug. But this morning I am really struggling, wishing this hurt would just go away, crying a lot, wish I wasn't.
> It's only 3 weeks since dday, So I guess I can't expect too much. Still not angry, overall sad to hurt to ok and back to hurt, I can still feel detached some and when we talk about it I can feel almost like I'm not present.
> 
> Things like, she was in his driveway, on his porch, her little hands were knocking on his door, her car was parked at his house....what does his house look like, silly things like this are plaguing me now, not sure what it's all about, but it sure does hurt.
> 
> Sure hope today turns out better then it is now...


You will bounce back and forth through many emotional states. You will trigger and those triggers will often be at random times and vary in intensity.One thing I can promise you is that it does get better with time. Keep the long view in focus as much as you can. One thing that I did not understand and BS in general do not understand is that wayward spouses go through their own triggers and experience their own emotional turmoil during reconciliation. With us its the pain of betrayal, the mind movies, the anger and confusion. With the WS its an enormous amount of mind numbing guilt. I did not understand this and in truth I couldn't have cared less if Morrigan was hurting after her affair. After all she caused it all right? But as the years have passed I've come to realize that infidelity hurts everyone and trying to dole out slices of a blame pie do not serve any useful purpose. Be there for each other and you will both get through this.

Someday you'll both be older and wiser. You'll be walking through a park or sitting on the couch. You'll turn to her and say "Remember when you had your affair? You were a pretty dumb sh!t weren't you?" She'll turn to you and say "But you loved that dumb sh!t didn't you?" You'll reply "Still do." Then you'll both giggle and hold each other feeling the warmth that only years of being together can kindle. That's where Morrigan and I are now. That's where you and EI can be someday as well if you both stay the course and hold on to each other like you mean it.


----------



## B1

Beowulf said:


> You will bounce back and forth through many emotional states. You will trigger and those triggers will often be at random times and vary in intensity.One thing I can promise you is that it does get better with time. Keep the long view in focus as much as you can. One thing that I did not understand and BS in general do not understand is that wayward spouses go through their own triggers and experience their own emotional turmoil during reconciliation. With us its the pain of betrayal, the mind movies, the anger and confusion. With the WS its an enormous amount of mind numbing guilt. I did not understand this and in truth I couldn't have cared less if Morrigan was hurting after her affair. After all she caused it all right? But as the years have passed I've come to realize that infidelity hurts everyone and trying to dole out slices of a blame pie do not serve any useful purpose. Be there for each other and you will both get through this.
> 
> Someday you'll both be older and wiser. You'll be walking through a park or sitting on the couch. You'll turn to her and say "Remember when you had your affair? You were a pretty dumb sh!t weren't you?" She'll turn to you and say "But you loved that dumb sh!t didn't you?" You'll reply "Still do." Then you'll both giggle and hold each other feeling the warmth that only years of being together can kindle. That's where Morrigan and I are now. That's where you and EI can be someday as well if you both stay the course and hold on to each other like you mean it.


Thank you Beowulf, that post brought me to tears...I can really see us talking to each other like that one day, it's something we would do. 

We have spent the last several hours talking, digging deep into it all, she has cried a lot and so have I. We are both hurting that is so true, not just me, but her too. I wish my pain would go away and I wish I could take hers away. 

We are taking a break from it now and preparing to get out of this house and go to a cookout.


----------



## B1

bandit.45 said:


> Betrayed, have you thought about taking a few days off and going somewhere by yourself to clear your mind and get some perspective?


I am on vacation this week. I have had a lot of time to think alone and talk, but no not really be alone in seclusion and think. 
The reality of it all is setting in, I think. I have been physically sick lately thinking about it, this is a first, not numb anymore just actually sick to my stomach. And I still choose us, I choose to Reconcile.

My sister set us up for the weekend at a hotel, we leave tomorrow. My daughter and her husband will care for our special needs son. I am actually looking forward to this time with her. I know that's not what you were looking for in an answer but I think it will be a great little mini vacation. 
We have only done this one other time in the past 10 years. It's a very rare occurrence for us. 

Today is a much better day, it's mostly the physical part that I have such a hard time with now, and sometimes the little mundane things. But and this is a BIG but, I have to remember that she tried to reach me for a very long time, she tried to flat out seduce me many times and I was just not going for it, the more she tried the harder I pushed her away, I would even get angry at her sometimes for trying, I don't even now know why. 
Had I been a loving, caring husband who showed some affection she never would have done this. Now, she is doing everything to make it up to me, including using some of this weekends lingerie on me today  and might I say...WOW does she look good in it..and might I say, out of it too :smthumbup: I wasted a lot of good years with her, I don't plan on doing that again.

Now, I realize I WILL have more bad days and bad hours, and so will she, but I am certain this is the woman I want to spend my life with and grow old with, and someday look back on this and make a joke or two about it. 

Please understand.. I love this woman and I KNOW she messed up bad, big time, but so did I, and had I not messed up then she would not have. I know that's not popular to say but it's just the honest truth. We made a big ol' mess of things and now we are trying to fix it all and that's going to take time. In the meantime we will talk, argue, cry, talk more, laugh and enjoy each others company and well enjoy $ex like never before.....testosterone is amazing stuff, and believe it or not through all the hurt and pain I think she is an amazing and beautiful woman. Honestly, I am lucky she didn't divorce me a year ago, and you know what, she is lucky I didn't divorce her this year. So, the way I see it is we are both lucky if that makes any sense at all. Perhaps you will think I am delusional?
Just be carefull with your response I hate to see you get banned yet again


----------



## the guy

Dude I don't think your delusional b/c I am going thru the same sh!t and I can totaly understand were you are coming from....I say f^ck em if they can't understand....they aren't in the here and now of your sitch. Many will never understand.

I my friend completely under stand and After 2-1/2 yeasr of a healthy R I can feel for you so by no mean do you need to justify any thing to any one at TAM...

We are here for support and a sound board and just like any community we all have are views and we *all should respect these views and give you the bat on the back for sticking with it....I did and it paid off.


----------



## aug

bandit.45 said:


> I was a loving, caring husband to my wife.... gave her everything of myself and treated her like a princess. Spoiled her actually. And I'm not exagerrating to make myself look better. It's the truth.
> 
> She still cheated on me. Twice.
> 
> I still think you blame yourself for EI's affair. This is wrong thinking. Blame yourself for 50% of the sorry state of the marriage.
> 
> The affair was EI's idea alone. Let her carry that burden for that... you have enough on your plate.



I can see bandit.45 giving his wife "everything of myself and treated her like a princess."


----------



## B1

bandit.45 said:


> I was a loving, caring husband to my wife.... gave her everything of myself and treated her like a princess. Spoiled her actually. And I'm not exagerrating to make myself look better. It's the truth.
> 
> She still cheated on me. Twice.
> 
> I still think you blame yourself for EI's affair. This is wrong thinking. Blame yourself for 50% of the sorry state of the marriage.
> 
> The affair was EI's idea alone. Let her carry that burden for that... you have enough on your plate.


Bandit.45,
That's just it, I did not treat her like a princess, care for her or show her love at all. I can see that now, before I was to shut down and closed off to do that. I blame myself for 70% of the sorry state of the marriage, keep in mind she was in IC and trying to get me to go, and to wake me up, help me etc. I just wouldn't participate in anyway.
I am really not blaming myself, I just no the facts as they are. 

True, the choice to have an affair is ALL on her, she CHOSE to do that, that's hers 100%, and she has owned up to that. Now, I will say again, had I treated her the way you treated your wife, she would not have had the affair, I feel 110% certain of that. Had I honored, loved and cherished her and she did this to me, I seriously doubt I would be on this road to R, I just couldn't do it.


----------



## bandit.45

betrayed1 said:


> Bandit.45,
> 
> True, the choice to have an affair is ALL on her, she CHOSE to do that, that's hers 100%, and she has owned up to that. Now, I will say again, had I treated her the way you treated your wife, she would not have had the affair, I feel 110% certain of that. Had I honored, loved and cherished her and she did this to me, I seriously doubt I would be on this road to R, I just couldn't do it.


Horsesh*t! You don't know that! Sorry but I don't buy it. You're not going to make me buy that. Two years ago you never would have thought your wife would cheat on you. Well she did, and here you are. The fact is you could have been the best husband on the planet and EI could have still cheated and figured out a way to justify it. 

She cheated because she wanted to. Plain and simple, just like my wife cheated because she wanted to. Quit blaming yourself and then try to convince the rest of us that you're not blaming yourself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Acabado

bandit.45, I don't see any confusion here on B1 nor EI. She owns her stuff, he own his. There are cheaters like EI who lost her sh!t after a whole life being faithful and years of neglect, cries for help and futile attempts to improve the marriage and then there are cheaters like your XW, who had strong sense of entitlement, who never had enough, who started from the get to and then did it again (and who knows in between), who doesn't mind destroy her very solid and fullfiling marriage for the sake of the trill (she never wanted to leave, right?, she asked again R, right?) and doesn't mind destroy MOM's marriage either when you dumped her. They are very different people *at their core*. You know.


----------



## EI

bandit.45 said:


> Horsesh*t! The fact is you could have been the best husband on the planet and EI could have still cheated and figured out a way to justify it.
> 
> She cheated because she wanted to. Plain and simple, just like my wife cheated because she wanted to. Quit blaming yourself and then try to convince the rest of us that you're not blaming yourself.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




No, No, No, No, No....... I reject that! Every situation is not the same. There is no WS script that we *all* follow. Buuuuuuut, H & I have had a wonderful day and are planning a wonderful weekend. I can't let you guys get me down right now, and as much as I hate to admit it, even to myself, what you all say does affect me. No one has any idea of what goes on inside of other people's marriages. By all rights, I SHOULD have divorced my H last year, but because of our financial situation and our children I could not. I don't care what any of you say.... H & I know the gravity of our finances (which are slowing improving) and the necessity of two parents in the home for our children (especially our special needs son.) I did everything that I knew to do, short of setting myself on fire and begging him to acknowledge that I was alive. Now, fast forward..... I do regret what I did. I'd give anything to erase the last 16 months.... but I can't . Short of that, I wish that I could simply erase any memory of it so that H & I could focus only on us. Interestingly enough, I wonder if he and I would even be in this place of renewed commitment, now, without H realizing that he came so close to losing me..... in fact, he did lose me. As I have said before, this is a new commitment, a new marriage..... he is so far removed from the man I knew that, at times, I barely recognize him. He and I were out today getting a "few things" for our weekend get-a-way and we were playfully teasing one another. I don't remember that last time we did that.... we never did it like we did today. It felt like we were having our own affair. I remember going into my therapist's office about three years ago telling him that I wanted "to have an affair with my husband." My therapist and God knows I tried. Not just with the "sex" stuff but in every way I tried to connect with him. He pushed me further away. I told him that I couldn't take it anymore and I meant it. The affair was wrong, it hurt him, our children and me, as well. H asked me the other might if I "would marry him." I said that I would. He seemed surprised and said, "Really?" I said that I would marry him, but I would NEVER again be married to the man that he had allowed himself to become before. And, I won't. He said that he could never be married to a "cheater." I don't expect that he should. He doesn't have to be. I wouldn't respect him if he could. 

With all of that having been said..... H & I desperately need this weekend alone and away from all of the daily grind that we live with every day. Sooooooo, if you guys don't have anything nice to say, then PLEASE don't say it!

One more thing, I have been reading through various threads getting familiar with the "stories" of many of you. I have been reading on Slater's thread (I think) and he said that he wanted to be with the woman that his wife's OM had an affair with. Meaning the OM got all of the "good stuff." I asked my H about that. He said, "yes," he felt that way, too. So, today, I set about "having the affair" with my husband that I tried to start about 3 years ago. We set a record today.... many in fact. I gave him the best of me in every way that I could possibly think of. He gave me his best in return. For H & me, at least for right now, no more assigning blame and percentages. We are just enjoying "falling in love" with one another again. Only this time, it is bigger and better than it ever was before. Just try to be happy for us! For now................ No doubt we have many ups and downs ahead of us. Literally and figuratively!


----------



## EI

Bandit, I do believe that your were and are a class act, (a leeeeetle bit rough around the edges..... but I like that in a man) and that your wife had bigger problems than anyone (herself) included was capable of handling. I know that she hurt you, terribly, and that you loved her very, very much. I have read a lot of your original thread. But, every woman is *NOT* your ex-wife. 

Still, I have to say that even though my H hurt me terribly with many years of him being shut down emotionally and physically, he was and is the most wonderful man that I have ever known in my life. I was a Daddy's girl..... the only girl.... the baby...... he had three sons before me. I thought my Daddy hung the moon, he may have.... LOL, he was a paratrooper in World War II with three combat jumps. He fought in the battle on Corregidor Island, known as "The Rock." My H reminded me sooooo much of my Dad. Responsible, loyal, faithful, dependable...... somewhere along the way, my H lost himself, then he nearly lost all of us..... he even started shutting down on the kids, he was alive but not living. I don't know what else to say. I'm feeling "the love" for H tonight and remembering my sweet hero..... my Daddy!


----------



## EI

bandit.45 said:


> My ex was a daddy's girl too. His angel.... A spoiled brat.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But, I'm not and I never have been a spoiled brat. I took care of my Mom and Dad until the day that they died. We sold our home and they sold theirs and we built a home (our home) together. Mom had a lengthy illness (heart disease) and my Dad had Alzheimer's, Diabetes, and heart disease. And, to this day I am fulfilling a promise that I made to my mom over 22 years ago. You see, our oldest two children, our beautiful daughter and our special needs son are not our birth children, but my brother's. My brother and his ex-wife (loooooooong story) were unable to raise them. My parents raised them for 7 years and when they were no longer able to due to their health and age then H & I adopted them and raised them along with our 3 biological sons, taking care of Mom and Dad until they died. I'm really not a spoiled brat.... far from it. As my 22 y/o son said a couple of years ago, "Mom, you love with your whole heart, but deep inside, you want people to love you back the same way and it hurts you when they don't. I understand this because I am the same way." I bawled when he said that. It was as if he could see inside of my soul. You never really want people to know your deepest insecurities.


----------



## EI

bandit.45 said:


> You and I have very different ways of looking at fidelity and honor EI. But I wish you and your husband well and I do hope the two of you make it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, really we don't. I'm human and I made a terrible mistake. One that I will pay for for the rest of my life. Unfortunately, my H & children will suffer for it, too. I broke...... H broke, too. Sometimes love doesn't conquer all. Sometimes, life conquers love. My 19 y/o son wrote a paper for his composition class today. He asked me to read it. It was about when having "just enough" becomes "not enough." About living too close to the edge. Sometimes, you do the very best you can and it still isn't enough. I'm not a cheater at heart. I never intended to cheat, planned to cheat or even thought I was capable of cheating.

H & I used to teach a Sunday School class to young engaged couples and newlyweds. *WE* were the couple that _everyone_ looked up to. I broke, what else can I do but do my very best to make it up to those whom I love and to those who love me? My mistake *DOES NOT* define me. It is only a small part of who I am. I am a Christian, a daughter, a sister, a wife and a mother. I made a mistake, a big mistake, but I have done a lot of other things in my life that I am very proud of. My mistake does not negate my accomplishments or my value as a person. My H, my children, my family and friends love me and have forgiven me. Now, I need to forgive myself and move on.


_BTW: Guys like your Dad, they are my heroes. Dad and 5 of his brothers served a combined total of over 122 years in the Army.... serving in World War II, Korea and Viet Nam. There is one surviving brother in his 80's. He was a POW in Korea. I'm feeling very patriotic..... it must be a delayed 4th of July reaction._


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## Beowulf

EI and B1,

You are both correct. Nobody knows your situation better than you do. If you are both determined to reconcile and have a good long loving relationship then that's what will happen. Never underestimate the power of the human will. I know sometimes I wax poetic about how wonderful my relationship with Morrigan is now but if you knew us 20 years ago you would have bet any amount of money against us making it together. If you want it you will have it. It takes two but if you both work together with love and resolve there is nothing that can stop you.


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## B1

Empty Inside said:


> But, I'm not and I never have been a spoiled brat. I took care of my Mom and Dad until the day that they died. We sold our home and they sold theirs and we built a home (our home) together. Mom had a lengthy illness (heart disease) and my Dad had Alzheimer's, Diabetes, and heart disease. And, to this day I am fulfilling a promise that I made to my mom over 22 years ago. You see, our oldest two children, our beautiful daughter and our special needs son are not our birth children, but my brother's. My brother and his ex-wife (loooooooong story) were unable to raise them. My parents raised them for 7 years and when they were no longer able to due to their health and age then H & I adopted them and raised them along with our 3 biological sons, taking care of Mom and Dad until they died. I'm really not a spoiled brat.... far from it. As my 22 y/o son said a couple of years ago, "Mom, you love with your whole heart, but deep inside, you want people to love you back the same way and it hurts you when they don't. I understand this because I am the same way." I bawled when he said that. It was as if he could see inside of my soul. You never really want people to know your deepest insecurities.


Boy, now you all know more about us than most. I wasn't sure we would ever bring this up. We have 5 kids, we always say that because, well...we do. Rarely do we say we adopted two of them, many people that we have met in person don't know to this day about this. I love all 5 of these kids so much. But long ago buried in the original posts when we say we took on a lot, or something like that anyway, we really mean we took on a lot. Special needs, Alzheimer's, heart disease and ADHD and caring for all of them at the same time. Ambulance drivers knew us by name and hospital stays were very normal. Medical bills were unreal.
It was literally like running a small business.

and....My only regret is that I wish I had not shut down like I did.


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## Beowulf

betrayed1 said:


> Boy, now you all know more about us than most. I wasn't sure we would ever bring this up. We have 5 kids, we always say that because, well...we do. Rarely do we say we adopted two of them, many people that we have met in person don't know to this day about this. I love all 5 of these kids so much. But long ago buried in the original posts when we say we took on a lot, or something like that anyway, we really mean we took on a lot. Special needs, Alzheimer's, heart disease and ADHD and caring for all of them at the same time. Ambulance drivers knew us by name and hospital stays were very normal. Medical bills were unreal.
> It was literally like running a small business.
> 
> and....My only regret is that I wish I had not shut down like I did.


Learn from the past but don't dwell in it. Wishes are for Disney, life and love are real and a hell of a lot more fun.


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## morituri

Empty Inside said:


> No, really we don't. I'm human and *I made a terrible mistake*. One that I will pay for for the rest of my life.
> 
> *My mistake* does not negate my accomplishments or my value as a person.


EI you may think I'm being petty for pointing this out but please consider the following.

*Mistake*: An act committed without any knowledge of a possible negative outcome.

*Bad Choice*: An act committed with awareness of the possible negative outcome but deciding to ignore it or hoping for the best.

Children make mistakes, adults make bad choices.


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## EI

morituri said:


> EI you may think I'm being petty for pointing this out but please consider the following.
> 
> *Mistake*: An act committed without any knowledge of a possible negative outcome.
> 
> *Bad Choice*: An act committed with awareness of the possible negative outcome but deciding to ignore it or hoping for the best.
> 
> Children make mistakes, adults make bad choices.



No, I *DO NOT* think you are being petty, at all. I absolutely agree. I made a *BAD CHOICE*, a terrible choice, the worst possible choice that I could have made. I regret it with every ounce of my being. But, I am more in love with my husband than I have ever been in my life. I am excited about spending the rest of my life with him, both of us growing and evolving and loving one another. I wish, so much, that H & I could have gotten to this place without me having gone to THAT place. But, I'm not suggesting that that is what I had to do for us to get here. I still don't know what more I could have done to help him these last few years. I did try. But, obviously, what I did was wrong. I know that now. I can't change the past, I can only go forward. 

Everyone have a wonderful weekend. We are getting ready to leave for ours! <3


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## warlock07

EI, you need not answer this on the board, just a question you might think about and discuss with your H. What about the OM? Did you just turn the switch off. It was 18 month LTA. I am concerned because this is what dingerdad posted about his marriage



> We had a rough day, got in a fight and she picked up the phone and called him. As soon as she did that and broke NC the marriage was over. It's pattern with her that has been happening even before we were married. I never believed she could break that pattern.


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## TBT

Just wanted to wish you both a good weekend together!


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## happyman64

betrayed1 said:


> Boy, now you all know more about us than most. I wasn't sure we would ever bring this up. We have 5 kids, we always say that because, well...we do. Rarely do we say we adopted two of them, many people that we have met in person don't know to this day about this. I love all 5 of these kids so much. But long ago buried in the original posts when we say we took on a lot, or something like that anyway, we really mean we took on a lot. Special needs, Alzheimer's, heart disease and ADHD and caring for all of them at the same time. Ambulance drivers knew us by name and hospital stays were very normal. Medical bills were unreal.
> It was literally like running a small business.
> 
> and....My only regret is that I wish I had not shut down like I did.


B1

It is very common that families with special needs kids in them, marriages suffer sometimes fatally.

Both of you have such big hearts. 

I truly hope you two reconnect. If you two really love each other you will find each others reset buttons. 


*And push them at the same time!!*

Keep working at it and never stop....

HM64


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## B1

Just got back from our weekend away. All I can say is WOW, what a nice much needed getaway. It was by far one of the best times we have had together in, well, forever. Yes, we were both on good behavior but I was not afraid to rock the boat with questions and she wasn't holding back answers. 

We cried, we laughed, we joked, and we talked through so many issues. morituri pointing out her wording was VERY beneficial. My wife, I think, is out of the fog and has said many things now that I needed to hear to help me begin to heal. 

She will address Warlock07's question soon. That's one of the issues we covered too. He's correct, it's not a switch that just gets turned off. 

I still, no we still, have tough times ahead, I know this and so does she, we still have tough on going issues to deal with but we are for the first time in years in the same book on the same page and we are working hard on this R.


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## happyman64

Getting on the same page is half the battle.

Keep working at it. Both of you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

warlock07 said:


> EI, you need not answer this on the board, just a question you might think about and discuss with your H. What about the OM? Did you just turn the switch off. It was 18 month LTA. I am concerned because this is what dingerdad posted about his marriage


dingerdad _Quote:
We had a rough day, got in a fight and she picked up the phone and called him. As soon as she did that and broke NC the marriage was over. It's pattern with her that has been happening even before we were married. I never believed she could break that pattern. _

Warlock, this is a valid question and I'm glad that you asked. It seems taboo for the CS to bring up the OM on TAM if they are in the process of R, so I haven't done so in quite some time. But, it is fair to be concerned about my "feelings" for the OM, my former AP. I am going to be as honest and tactful as I know how to be. I believe that I would think less of a person if they spent 15 months in an EA/PA with someone that they didn't have genuine feelings for. I don't have an on/off switch. I do believe that these types of affairs may be more likely to result in a D than ONS or EA. But, I think that if a couple can have a true R after one of these types of affairs that the CS is less likely to be serial cheater or re-offender. These types of affairs, at least in my case, was precipitated by the long-term break-down of my marriage. I won't reiterate all of that because if you're reading this then you, most likely, are already familiar with our story. I have done a lot of reading, recently, and have concluded that I fit the description of a _"Walk Away Wife" (WAW): After years of trying unsuccessfully to improve things, a woman eventually surrenders and convinces herself that change isn't possible. She ends up believing there's absolutely nothing she can do because everything she's tried hasn't worked. That's when she begins to carefully map out the logistics of what she considers to be the inevitable, getting a divorce._

I was convinced that my H did not love me, I thought that, perhaps, he never really did. I no longer felt "in love" with my husband.... I told H, ILYBINILWY. I surrendered and moved on, emotionally and physically.... I'm not trying to justify my actions here, at all, I am just not repeating my long story. I did have a plan of action and intended to leave him next year when our youngest graduated from high school. In fact, last spring after D-Day #1 and a brief attempt at a R which turned into a False R, we even told our children that we would be getting a divorce at a later date when it became financially possible. Then, we quit talking about it. We didn't talk about D or R.

I truly believed that I fell "in love" with the OM. My therapist says that I fell "into something." After D-Day #2, and the aftermath that followed, I knew that I had no future with the OM for a multitude of reasons. Honestly, I wasn't planning to leave H to be with the OM. The OM had been honest from the start that he would never marry again and I knew that my children would never accept him (he knew that, as well.) He did try to discourage me from my continued pursuit of him (obviously, not hard enough.) Whether I could be with the OM or not did not dissuade me from my desire to end my marriage. For many, many years, I suspected that there was a flood of emotions behind an impenetrable dam just waiting to burst. But, last year, I gave up and decided that there was just "nothing" behind his wall, at least nothing for me. In the days and weeks that followed D-Day #2, my H became a different man. He didn't just become the man that I always thought he could be, he has become more that I ever dared to dream. We haven't just rediscovered our old love, we have found, with one another, a love that is greater than we have ever had. H was on vacation the week after Memorial Day (the week of D-Day) and again this past week. He has, also, taken off several personal days in between. We have spent more time together in these last several weeks than we have in years and years. It's difficult to comprehend that two people can change and evolve so much at this point in their lives. This past weekend, in just 48 hours, we shared, laughed, loved, cried, talked and lived more passionately than we have in three decades. I have never felt so alive and happy in my life. I did not feel this way several weeks ago. It has been an ongoing evolution. But as each week has progressed we have continued to talk, love and grow in ways I never imagined. I remember going into my therapist's office three ago and saying, "I want to have an affair with my husband." Well, let me tell you, I am. Who knew that after 28 years of marriage and a 31 year relationship that we could be living THIS right now. 

Now, back to the OM. As for anyone in my life that I have ever cared about..... I wish him success, health and happiness. But, it will be from afar. I have no intention of ever seeing or talking to him again. Like me, he is neither all black or all white, all good or all bad, but we, both, made a bad choice. 

But, my handsome H, who is sitting right behind me with his arms around my waist would like for me to say that I wish for him to be run over by a Mack Truck!  LOL


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## Beowulf

_I was convinced that my H did not love me, I thought that, perhaps, he never really did. I no longer felt "in love" with my husband.... I told H, ILYBINILWY. I surrendered and moved on, emotionally and physically_

This was exactly what Morrigan said she felt. She also said later that she was never so happy to be so wrong.


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## Badblood

Betrayed1, I see from your posts that you have decided to reconcile with your spouse. I wish you good luck in your endevors, and hope that this reconciliation is successful. If I offended either you or you spouse, I am sorry, but my words were motivated by my concern for you and in no way meant to convey any hatred for your spouse. I am a Marine, I am direct and without guile. Some people find that harsh, but it is meant to show honest involvement. Again, I wish you the best of luck>


----------



## warlock07

Oh Boy!! Some uncomfortable questions for both of you:

EI, you were having an exit affair. Ever had a feeling that you were more into the OM than he was into you ? (He made it clear he never wanted to remarry, pushed you to false R more than once but still kept pursuing you on the side.). And some of your statements about the OM are contradictory!! In some posts, you seemed to expect that OM and you would move in together after separation(Your initial posts). Then in some of the posts you realize that OM was never an option.




> I believe that I would think less of a person if they spent 15 months in an EA/PA with someone that they didn't have genuine feelings for.





> I truly believed that I fell "in love" with the OM./QUOTE]
> 
> I think you still personally believe that you truly love(d) the OM. But you wouldn't say it here though . You will be crucified after such a confession and the topic will lose its purpose. So do you still have some feelings left for him? I would be surprised if you said no. One because it was a LTA with a heavy emotional aspect and emotions don't die easily. And two because your attitude(?) towards him when you speak about him. You speak of him as an ex-bf. Not someone you had an affair with.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now, back to the OM. As for anyone in my life that I have ever cared about..... I wish him success, health and happiness. But, it will be from afar. I have no intention of ever seeing or talking to him again. Like me, he is neither all black or all white, all good or all bad, but we, both, made a bad choice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is a disappointing answer.(at least for me) . Both of you(OM and you) actively cheated and lied to your family. While you are one primarily responsible for the affair, he actively participated in this deception and destruction of the family. He humiliated and destroyed your H who did not even know him or did him any harm . Your marriage troubles were none of his concern. He contiguously flung sh!t into your house for almost 2 years(Even though it was you who opened the windows in the first place ) and you. Of course you H would wish that you would hate him. Even though you don't hate him yet, you should realize that you should hate him.
> 
> Also you also realize that things go back to normal after a while, right?(Work on the marriage will never stop, but the highs, plateaus and lows happen)
> 
> B1, did you wonder if your wife demonized you to the OM? And are you OK with that? How do you deal with it?
Click to expand...


----------



## B1

Badblood said:


> Betrayed1, I see from your posts that you have decided to reconcile with your spouse. I wish you good luck in your endevors, and hope that this reconciliation is successful. If I offended either you or you spouse, I am sorry, but my words were motivated by my concern for you and in no way meant to convey any hatred for your spouse. I am a Marine, I am direct and without guile. Some people find that harsh, but it is meant to show honest involvement. Again, I wish you the best of luck>


No offense taken. I would much rather get to the point then beat around the the bush wasting time 

btw: Thank you for your service to our country!


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## B1

warlock07 said:


> Oh Boy!! Some uncomfortable questions for both of you:
> 
> This is a disappointing answer.(at least for me) . Both of you(OM and you) actively cheated and lied to your family. While you are one primarily responsible for the affair, he actively participated in this deception and destruction of the family. *He humiliated and destroyed your H who did not even know him or did him any harm *. Your marriage troubles were none of his concern. *He contiguously flung sh!t into your house for almost 2 years*(Even though it was you who opened the windows in the first place ) and you. Of course you H would wish that you would hate him. Even though you don't hate him yet, you should realize that you should hate him.
> 
> Also you also realize that things go back to normal after a while, right?(Work on the marriage will never stop, but the highs, plateaus and lows happen)
> 
> B1, did you wonder if your wife demonized you to the OM? And are you OK with that? How do you deal with it?



Thank you warlock07, you put that together very well....I bolded the part that meant the most from your statment. This OM did hurt me more than anything has ever hurt me before. He hurt my kids, our family, he intruded when he should have said NO.

I wasn't real pleased with the answer either but it is honest. 
She has come along way in 4 weeks, this weekend was a No more blame shifting weekend about the A for her, she has said some things that really helped me heal. This process does take time, I have learned that. And I can't expect her to just shut it off in a few weeks with something that lasted 15 months. I wish she could, I wish she would tell me "I hate him" or at least "I don't like him" but she didn't and that's just being honest. _Now.....how do I process this_? how do I deal with it? I'm just not sure. I'm a littel confused about it to be honest.

I know our friends that went through this, it was he who had the affair, he felt the same way about the OW, wished her well etc. There 7 years out and very happy now.

I am confident she didn't demonize me, she has told me over and over what she said about me to him. I will let her respond about that.

I am waiting for my next IC or even MC session to address this more.


----------



## EI

warlock07 said:


> Oh Boy!! Some uncomfortable questions for both of you:
> 
> EI, you were having an exit affair. Ever had a feeling that you were more into the OM than he was into you ? (He made it clear he never wanted to remarry, pushed you to false R more than once but still kept pursuing you on the side.). And some of your statements about the OM are contradictory!! In some posts, you seemed to expect that OM and you would move in together after separation(Your initial posts). Then in some of the posts you realize that OM was never an option.


_Yes, I think that I was always aware that I was more into the OM than he was into me. Truth is, he didn't pursue me, I pursued him. I never said that he and I would move in together. After D-Day #1, I did think that after I got a divorce that the OM and I would, likely, continue to "see" one another. I wasn't ever, intentionally, contradictory..... actually, many of the things the OM said and did to me were very contradictory..... often leaving me confused, as well. But, at the time, I was planning to leave my H whether I had a future with the OM or not. In the immediate aftermath of D-Day # 2, I knew that a relationship with him would never be possible. My children would not have accepted it. _




> "I truly believed that I fell "in love" with the OM."
> 
> I think you still personally believe that you truly love(d) the OM. But you wouldn't say it here though . You will be crucified after such a confession and the topic will lose its purpose. So do you still have some feelings left for him? I would be surprised if you said no. One because it was a LTA with a heavy emotional aspect and emotions don't die easily. And two because your attitude(?) towards him when you speak about him. You speak of him as an ex-bf. Not someone you had an affair with.


_Read my quote, Warlock. I clearly stated that I did believe that I was in love with him. Telling me that 'I will be crucified' for making such a confession in one sentence and then asking me to 'make the confession,' anyway, in the next sentence, feels a bit like a set-up. You wouldn't be trying to do that to me, now, would you? LOL It has been close to 7 weeks since I have seen the OM and have had NC, since shortly thereafter. Did I have real feelings? Yes. But, I can say that it has gotten easier with time. I would say that the 'fog has lifted' and that time and no further contact will do the rest. _



> This is a disappointing answer.(at least for me) . Both of you(OM and you) actively cheated and lied to your family. While you are one primarily responsible for the affair, he actively participated in this deception and destruction of the family. He humiliated and destroyed your H who did not even know him or did him any harm . Your marriage troubles were none of his concern. He contiguously flung sh!t into your house for almost 2 years(Even though it was you who opened the windows in the first place ) and you. Of course you H would wish that you would hate him. Even though you don't hate him yet, you should realize that you should hate him.
> 
> Also you also realize that things go back to normal after a while, right?(Work on the marriage will never stop, but the highs, plateaus and lows happen)
> 
> B1, did you wonder if your wife demonized you to the OM? And are you OK with that? How do you deal with it?


Not to nitpick, but it was 15 months, not almost two years. Because I was convinced that my H no longer loved me, and because I had been sleeping on the couch (and not with my H) for over a year, and because H & I had made a brief attempt at R last summer after D-Day # 1, during which the OM & I ceased all contact for a few months, but H & I managed only to rug-sweep the whole A and then things went back to our 'normal,' I was able to convince myself and the OM that H & I were mutually agreeing to live separate lives (in the same home for financial reasons) until our D was final. As I stated on my thread in the very first few posts, even my therapist thought that my H must have known what was going on and was choosing to look the other way. I wasn't going too far out of my way to hide things, but I wasn't being honest about it, either. If I hate the OM then I would have to hate myself. If I hated myself then how could I possibly ask my husband to love me, now. You may not see the logic in that, but I do. 

I don't expect this "honeymoon" phase that we are in (or hysterical bonding) to last forever, but I intend to enjoy the ride while it lasts. I have said all that I wish to say about the OM. I am, now, happily moving on with my H and I hope the OM is happy in whatever direction that his life takes him. 

Finally, I emphatically deny that I EVER demonized my H to the OM. In fact, I pointed out that I still loved him but that I was no longer in love with him. I said that he had been a good father, etc.... all of the same things that I said to you all on TAM. I didn't demonize him here, either. The OM once told me that it would make it easier on him if I could say something 'bad' about my H, but I said that I couldn't and I wouldn't. I simply did not feel loved by him. Well, it's a little more complicated than that, but I assume you've done your reading here. For you to make that statement when neither H or I had said anything of that nature is kind of inflammatory and I don't understand it's purpose. 

Now, H & I just had the most wonderful weekend of our lives. It wasn't a 2nd honeymoon.... it put the first one to shame. I am falling more deeply in love with this man than I ever was in our first 31 years together. We are putting in the real work, time, effort and love to make this marriage all that it can be and we are very happy right now. We believe that we are going to be able to successfully R, but we are not taking anything for granted, certainly not one another.


----------



## Beowulf

Empty Inside said:


> _Yes, I think that I was always aware that I was more into the OM than he was into me. Truth is, he didn't pursue me, I pursued him. I never said that he and I would move in together. After D-Day #1, I did think that after I got a divorce that the OM and I would, likely, continue to "see" one another. I wasn't ever, intentionally, contradictory..... actually, many of the things the OM said and did to me were very contradictory..... often leaving me confused, as well. But, at the time, I was planning to leave my H whether I had a future with the OM or not. In the immediate aftermath of D-Day # 2, I knew that a relationship with him would never be possible. My children would not have accepted it. _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Read my quote, Warlock. I clearly stated that I did believe that I was in love with him. Telling me that 'I will be crucified' for making such a confession in one sentence and then asking me to 'make the confession,' anyway, in the next sentence, feels a bit like a set-up. You wouldn't be trying to do that to me, now, would you? LOL It has been close to 7 weeks since I have seen the OM and have had NC, since shortly thereafter. Did I have real feelings? Yes. But, I can say that it has gotten easier with time. I would say that the 'fog has lifted' and that time and no further contact will do the rest. _
> 
> 
> 
> Not to nitpick, but it was 15 months, not almost two years. Because I was convinced that my H no longer loved me, and because I had been sleeping on the couch (and not with my H) for over a year, and because H & I had made a brief attempt at R last summer after D-Day # 1, during which the OM & I ceased all contact for a few months, but H & I managed only to rug-sweep the whole A and then things went back to our 'normal,' I was able to convince myself and the OM that H & I were mutually agreeing to live separate lives (in the same home for financial reasons) until our D was final. As I stated on my thread in the very first few posts, even my therapist thought that my H must have known what was going on and was choosing to look the other way. I wasn't going too far out of my way to hide things, but I wasn't being honest about it, either. If I hate the OM then I would have to hate myself. If I hated myself then how could I possibly ask my husband to love me, now. You may not see the logic in that, but I do.
> 
> I don't expect this "honeymoon" phase that we are in (or hysterical bonding) to last forever, but I intend to enjoy the ride while it lasts. I have said all that I wish to say about the OM. I am, now, happily moving on with my H and I hope the OM is happy in whatever direction that his life takes him.
> 
> Finally, I emphatically deny that I EVER demonized my H to the OM. In fact, I pointed out that I still loved him but that I was no longer in love with him. I said that he had been a good father, etc.... all of the same things that I said to you all on TAM. I didn't demonize him here, either. The OM once told me that it would make it easier on him if I could say something 'bad' about my H, but I said that I couldn't and I wouldn't. I simply did not feel loved by him. Well, it's a little more complicated than that, but I assume you've done your reading here. For you to make that statement when neither H or I had said anything of that nature is kind of inflammatory and I don't understand it's purpose.
> 
> Now, H & I just had the most wonderful weekend of our lives. It wasn't a 2nd honeymoon.... it put the first one to shame. I am falling more deeply in love with this man than I ever was in our first 31 years together. We are putting in the real work, time, effort and love to make this marriage all that it can be and we are very happy right now. We believe that we are going to be able to successfully R, but we are not taking anything for granted, certainly not one another.


EI,

Nothing you have said here is much different than what Morrigan said to me 20 years ago. Well, except the sex part. That never slowed down much. Go figure. Anyway, all of this is normal or at least its very similar to my R and some others I am aware of. Morrigan didn't hate her AP. She did think she loved him and admitted on D-Day that she didn't love me. Gradually as she emerged from her fog that changed and she realized that she didn't love him and never really did. But she still couldn't come to truly hate him. She did hate what they had both done and she found him extremely pathetic and sad. But not hate. I guess you could say she moved from false love into apathy. And I think that's for the best because love or hate means you are still emotionally connected. Apathy just means there are no feelings at all.

Edit: Oh and enjoy your time together. Connect like crazy. Focus on each other and don't let anyone else occupy one second of your thoughts. Glad you had a great weekend. Now make it last all week, all month, all year, all decade.......


----------



## Acabado

Thank you very much for that last reply, Empty Inside. Your honesty si very refreshing.
You sound really happy. To be honest I find your getting past the resentments just wonderful. Keep enjoying the now.


----------



## EI

Beowulf said:


> EI,
> 
> Nothing you have said here is much different than what Morrigan said to me 20 years ago. Well, except the sex part. That never slowed down much. Go figure. Anyway, all of this is normal or at least its very similar to my R and some others I am aware of. Morrigan didn't hate her AP. She did think she loved him and admitted on D-Day that she didn't love me. Gradually as she emerged from her fog that changed and she realized that she didn't love him and never really did. But she still couldn't come to truly hate him. She did hate what they had both done and she found him extremely pathetic and sad. But not hate. I guess you could say she moved from false love into apathy. And I think that's for the best because love or hate means you are still emotionally connected. Apathy just means there are no feelings at all.
> 
> Edit: Oh and enjoy your time together. Connect like crazy. Focus on each other and don't let anyone else occupy one second of your thoughts. Glad you had a great weekend. Now make it last all week, all month, all year, all decade.......



Beowulf, I don't think I have personally thanked you for taking the time to read and comment on our posts. H & I, often, refer to the long term success that you and your wife have had with your R. I just wanted you to know that your encouraging words have been greatly appreciated by both of us. I read Morrigan's story on another thread last night and I am amazed at the strength and resilience that both of you have shown in your lives. H & I find your story to be incredibly inspiring. I think your love story is beautiful and I hope that H & I can, one day, look back and say the same about ours!


----------



## Beowulf

Empty Inside said:


> Beowulf, I don't think I have personally thanked you for taking the time to read and comment on our posts. H & I, often, refer to the long term success that you and your wife have had with your R. I just wanted you to know that your encouraging words have been greatly appreciated by both of us. I read Morrigan's story on another thread last night and I am amazed at the strength and resilience that both of you have shown in your lives. H & I find your story to be incredibly inspiring. I think your love story is beautiful and I hope that H & I can, one day, look back and say the same about ours!


I say this will all sincerity. I have absolutely no doubts that you will. None whatsoever.

Morrigan is very good at reading posts from WS and somehow knowing when something is genuine and when its a contrivance. I think it comes from her own experiences and that darned women's intuition thing. In your and your husband's case she has never once doubted your sincerity, or your husband's for that matter. Even when he was making posts that would give rise to the opinion that he couldn't go on she said "he loves her, he won't give up." I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you have her seal of approval you have a pretty damned good chance of making it.


----------



## EI

Acabado said:


> Thank you very much for that last reply, Empty Inside. Your honesty si very refreshing.
> You sound really happy. To be honest I find your getting past the resentments just wonderful. Keep enjoying the now.


Thank you so much for the encouragement. It really does make a difference.


----------



## EI

Beowulf said:


> I say this will all sincerity. I have absolutely no doubts that you will. None whatsoever.
> 
> Morrigan is very good at reading posts from WS and somehow knowing when something is genuine and when its a contrivance. I think it comes from her own experiences and that darned women's intuition thing. In your and your husband's case she has never once doubted your sincerity, or your husband's for that matter. Even when he was making posts that would give rise to the opinion that he couldn't go on she said "he loves her, he won't give up." I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you have her seal of approval you have a pretty damned good chance of making it.


_Reading that truly gave me cold chills (the good kind!) Please tell Morrigan that she had already become a source of inspiration to me and that I thank her so much for believing in H and me._


----------



## warlock07

EI, just realize that I am in no way looking to attack you. Maybe my post did come across as such but it was never my intention. You don't owe me anything. I am just continuing the discussion.

And I was not trying to set you up. 



> Telling me that 'I will be crucified' for making such a confession in one sentence and then asking me to 'make the confession,' anyway, in the next sentence, feels a bit like a set-up. You wouldn't be trying to do that to me, now, would you?


We should work on our communication EI.  I am talking about two different issues there. "Make the confession" part was actually asking you if you still have feelings for him now in any capacity. You did not explicitly say that you
still have them "now". Your H clarified that in the next post.



> For you to make that statement when neither H or I had said anything of that nature is kind of inflammatory and I don't understand it's purpose.


I asked a question(quoted below). I never said that you did. That intention was that if you did do it, your H will have to find a reason to understand and move on from that. 



> B1, did you wonder if your wife demonized you to the OM? And are you OK with that? How do you deal with it?


----------



## EI

warlock07 said:


> EI, just realize that I am in no way looking to attack you. Maybe my post did come across as such but it was never my intention. You don't owe me anything. I am just continuing the discussion.
> 
> And I was not trying to set you up.
> 
> We should work on our communication EI.


We're good, Warlock! I have acquired a healthy (if not guarded) respect for you. I understand that you are looking out for my H and I can appreciate that. Feel free to "continue the discussion" anytime. I believe that I stated in one of my earlier comments that I have about 1000 words to every 1 of my H's. The more of them that I get out on TAM the less he has to listen to when he comes home from work! If we had found TAM earlier it might have saved H & I all kinds of trouble! LOL


----------



## warlock07

> I understand that you are looking out for my H and I can appreciate that.


Not just your H. I think you are a genuine good hearted person regardless of the infidelity.(taking care of ill parents and the kids)


----------



## EI

warlock07 said:


> Not just your H. I think you are a genuine good hearted person regardless of the infidelity.(taking care of ill parents and the kids)



Well, who knew? Thank you! That makes me smile!


----------



## swedish

For those of you making unsupportive comments in this thread, please review the guidelines of CWI:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...es-coping-infidelity-section-please-read.html

TAM is a pro-marriage forum so please be supportive of members who are trying to reconcile.


----------



## B1

Where I am today:
(It's been about a month since D-Day #2 when I learned that it was a PA and the length of the A was 15months.)

*The whole thing still dominates my thoughts.
*The physical aspect of the A still haunts me some, much more so than the EA part.
*I get a little anxious in the evenings, not sure why though.
*I still need to write, journal, email, post, text my feelings daily.It really helps and I would explode if I didn't do it.
*We talk, email, text a lot every day, I mean a lot. I would say 2-3 hours daily.
*Mind movies are almost under control for the most part. If they come I can stop them or replace them with our own. Especially after this past weekend, that getaway was something we desperately needed and truly helped us in our recovery.
*Crying has slowed way down. I think I have only cried a few times in the past 5 days.
*The overall hurt is not near as raw. But, a little anger is there now when it wasn't before.
*The veil of overall sadness seems to have lifted.
*I am still scared of the anger stage, I am seeing small doses of it now. When thinking about the A I will now tend to get hurt but also anger will be there too. It is controllable though. Bandit scared me about this, hopefully it won't get any worse. I just don't think anger would help our situation.
*I know I love her and she is falling back in love with me. This did happen a little quicker than expected, her falling back in love with me.
*I know she will probably never hate the OM, the best I can hope for is indifference.
*I don't worry so much about NC being broken. I did warn her though just yesterday about breaking NC.
*Every now and then I will get worried that I am being played, it's an odd feeling of, is this really real, is she really being open and honest with me. I decide to answer "yes" to that every time. It's a choice.
*I am beginning to trust again. I have not looked at phone records in a while. I HAVE checked up on her computer use though especially when she is on late at night, she is always here on TAM, she spends 99% of her free time here. .
*She is still very transparent telling me most every move she makes and phone calls being made etc.
*We laugh now and tease some.
*She can sometimes talk about the A a little more open than I care for, it can hurt, but what's happening is that I am becoming her best friend again, and she is feeling comfortable in sharing her feelings with me. If I can't handle it I say so and we stop.
*We are confident we will make this R work. However, I am scared that I may revert to old habits and shut off. My wife is scared I wont be able to forgive and move on, that I have anger coming that may put and end to our R.
*She is out of the fog and I am SO glad of that. It takes time for this to happen. It's so frustrating for the BS to work on a R while the WS is in the false state of reality. It takes patience and determination by the BS, and I guess love.
*I am out of shock and no longer numb. Reality is and has set in, at least I think so.
*Depression was never a problem with me, I will be honest here I was already on anti-depressents I think they kept me out of that deep dark hole as I call it. I suffered more from just sadness, there is a BIG difference.
*I have yet to utter the words "I forgive you". That will come I'm just not there yet.
*$ex is mind blowing right now. I am not inhibited anymore at all in this area, before I was VERY inhibited.
*I have learned to communicate much better, she has learned to read me better and even allows me to talk some too 
*I always let her know she is loved, I find I need her touch, her hugs and I know she needs mine.
*I want to please her and make her happy. It's important to me now and
on my mind.
*There are moments throughout the day when I miss her horribly.
*I get emotional very easily and quickly over various things, can be unrelated to the A. I will cry at a Hallmark commercial now.
*We still talk a LOT about the A. It dominates all our conversations.
*My questions about the A have slowed way down, I think I have just about gotten all the details I want and need.
*We are talking more about other things also.
*I do worry that what happens when this A is no longer subject #1, will we still communicate as well.
*We stay in touch throughout the day via text and email.
*I am less inhibited in other areas of my life now. When it comes to my wife, I am not inhibited about anything..I think I have actually embarrassed her a few times.
*I still think there is more of me to come out, that I am still holding back and that's were IC comes in.
*We are still, of course, in MC. We had a session Wednesday.
*T injections have helped immensely. If you're over 40 get tested for Low testosterone, it can make a world of difference.

Yes, I know we still have a long and bumpy road ahead of us. I know we will still argue over this, that it will be the cause of great pain and suffering from time to time and that it will be an unfortunate big part of our life that we will never forget.
I do feel we can have a better, stronger more meaningful marriage now. I am sorry it took this event to get us here. As much as I hate to admit it, this A was a catalyst that got us to this point in our life.
I hate it, yet I logically know it very possibly saved our marriage. In my heart though, I hate it, I loath it, it's a bitter pill to swallow.


----------



## anonymouskitty

We don't want to scare you, just let EI be prepared for random bouts of hurtful tongue lashing. You guys are doing great, considering the circumstances. She's still weaning off the dopamine, it'll take a few months. What follows will be a period of shame and anger at the OM.

Its natural to not feel secure at this stage, because the relationship is still on the rocks but you're rebuilding and thats a good sign.

Don't be too quick to say "I forgive you". Make her work for it .Keep touching each other and talking till it bores the **** out of both of you. Thats therapy in itself. B1, its natural to hate the entire ordeal(unless you're a cuckold, I don't see any reason for you to not hate it) take your anger out on her, but don't let it turn bitter.

You'll be alright mate.


----------



## Beowulf

B1,

Everything you wrote is exactly how it should be at this time. I'd like to just make a couple of points that I feel may help.

As far as the OM is concerned indifference is what you should hope for and look to achieve. Both love and hate come from the same place believe it or not. Any emotion keeps us tied to the object of that emotion. Indifference is a healthy way of shedding yourself of the those bonds.

You are going to get angry. The fact that you know and expect it will help. EI, if you read this just know that he will lash out at times when his anger becomes too much to control. It WILL pass. It ALWAYS does. Just ride it out with him the way he rode out your roller coaster when you were in your affair. You came through the other side. So will he.

One thing about verification. Morrigan and I still check each other's computers, phones, email etc and its been 20 years. We vowed never to again allow there to be any secrets from each other or even the perception of secrets. B1, if you feel like checking things, check them. If it makes you feel safe, do it. EI, if he checks up on you know that he is doing it out of love and concern for himself certainly but also you and the marriage. You should encourage him to check your email, phone, computer etc because the more he does the safer he will feel and the more "in love" feelings you will both recapture.

B1, if you are smart, and I know you are, you will encourage EI to let you know if she sees trouble on the horizon vis-a-vis you withdrawing. I tend to do that too and I told Morrigan if she sees me start to turn inward she needs to tell me right away so I can pull myself back out. At first I would argue that I wasn't doing that but then I realized I was and she saw it. Now she will just give me "the look" and I'll know what she means.

The low testosterone is huge brother. I have to give myself weekly injections because of my low T levels. It affects everything. Your mood, your energy levels, your opinion of yourself as a man. I was on the patch, then on Androgel. Both stopped working after a while as it seems in some cases it does. But now I'm on injections and while it sucks to have to stick myself its a hell of a lot better than the alternative. I also noticed that I withdraw a lot less now that my levels are normal again. I've been doing testosterone therapy for many years now so if you have any questions, PM me because I've probably already been there.


----------



## thebuckest

Ok I read most of ur wifes post and some of your but since ur both posting on here let me address you both here and you can read it together.

First to your wife I don't think you truly realize what ur hubby was dealing with when it comes to trt. Testosterone replacement therapy for those not in the know. Basically everything you said ur husband wasn't doing can be traced back to that. Your hubby was basically becoming a women cause a man without test isn't a man at all in fact there nothing. We require test to do anything essentially anything from mood to lubricate joints or just be healthy. Now this has not been really treated till the last several years as steroids were always frowned upon. But this explains ur husband depression lack of motivation and lack of sex drive. I know its hard for a women to understand but its true. My wife once didn't understand then one time she took a pill form of steroid and understood completely. And thays not even a dose that a man needs to stay normal. So while ur wife continues to play the neglected card u need to remind her that u were sick and that is not an excuse. You need to be umderstanding that ur situation created a perfect storm in ur marriage and certaintly played a role in your wifes depression, but dpnt feel bad for it and dpnt let her hold that over your head. Ur wife has accepted responsibility which is good but tell her to stop saying but u pushed me to it. That's not owning her end of the responsibility nor is it productive. 

Ok onto the positive and repair. Good thing is u two have a lot to R for. But a lot of work is ahead. Ur wife must forget this other man if she truly believes she loved him then u stand no chance. Its easy to think u love someone when you have been emotionally mistreated for years and u get suddenly showered with attention and afection buf u both know that's not necessarily true love. What u two had in the beginning is. Now the positive is ur medical situation is figured out and you are bouf to feel like your in your twenties again. Unfortunately ur wife will still feel old but that'd life. You need to hit the gym make sure u take slow as ur muscles will be stronger than ur jpints now. But get back some confidence and the attraction of ur wife. If u don't get exactly what u want google "blast and cruise on trt" that will definetly get ur wife attracted to you. And as far as the thoughts of ur wifes affair that will fade more and more as u and ur wife build a connection. Take time before u start to have intercourse with each other so when u finally get to that point where ur only thinking of each other and ur final connection should be intercourse. That will lifht the spark back into ur marriage. If not file for divorce and move on. 

Now I'm off to spend the day with my lovely wife and son. I do want to thank u all for ur stories they certaintly make me look past the day to day problems my family deal with. Gl and wish u luck and love.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Badblood

swedish said:


> For those of you making unsupportive comments in this thread, please review the guidelines of CWI:
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...es-coping-infidelity-section-please-read.html
> 
> TAM is a pro-marriage forum so please be supportive of members who are trying to reconcile.


I am , myself, pro-marriage, but that does not imply that I believe that ANY marriage is better than NO marriage. "Support", can come in many guises, many forms. I fully support B1 and EI's attempts at reconciliation, but that DOES NOT mean that I agree, with all that they say or do. Blanket validation or agreement, is as harmful as blanket condemnation. Each statement can and should be taken at face value and we, posters should be free to express our concerns, without fear of "banning". The danger is that in our desire to "support", the marriage, we become a validation network for the WS. Sorry, B1 and EI, for the threadjack. BTW, I think you will find that I have expressed my support for EI and B1, in their efforts.


----------



## anonymouskitty

Badblood said:


> Blanket validation or agreement, is as harmful as blanket condemnation. Each statement can and should be taken at face value and we, posters should be free to express our concerns, without fear of "banning". The danger is that in our desire to "support", the marriage, we become a validation network for the WS.


Very true, I don't see how a suggestion supporting a sham of a marriage( as is the case when the WS is completely in the fog or when the WS is a cakeeater and the BS continues to live in denial) can be better than a suggestion supporting either of the spouses to start divorce proceedings.How is it Pro Marriage when you're validating a marriage that has no solid foundation to exist on?? Sure, the OPs are free to do as they wish and most of the times the advice given falls on deaf ears but banning posts which are rational, albeit not what the OP wants to hear is just brutal

My apologies for the threadjack , EI B1.


----------



## Shaggy

I'm happy that R is working fir the two of you. There are way too many sad stories on tam, it's nice to have good news .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## warlock07

You don't have to accept everything she does (*I know she will probably never hate the OM, the best I can hope for is indifference.) to maintain peace. You can express you unhappiness if you don't like what she is doing. The resentment will only grow. She should be one accommodating you in issues regarding to the infidelity.

Good luck


----------



## B1

warlock07 said:


> You don't have to accept everything she does (*I know she will probably never hate the OM, the best I can hope for is indifference.) to maintain peace. You can express you unhappiness if you don't like what she is doing. The resentment will only grow. She should be one accommodating you in issues regarding to the infidelity.
> 
> Good luck


You lost me a little bit here....

If I don't like what she is doing I tell her, If I don't like her response, her actions I will tell her. I don't have a problem rocking the boat...I rocked it yesterday and some earlier today.
We got through them both with positive results. I shook her up really bad today, she was a mess for a better part of this afternoon. She never got defensive, never got angry, answered every question and resolved everything. I can't honestly see how she could be doing more to make this R work.

She could not be being more transparent, more comforting, more helpful and more telling, more honest right now. She will text me many times a day and ask how I am doing, She calls a couple times a day with the same. She is, as far as I can tell, doing everything she can to make things right. She just told me today how lucky she is to have me and for me to be giving HER another chance. I am hearing things you all are not and I am hearing them a lot and seeing her positive actions. 

Yes, I love her and Yes I want this to work out but if I thought for a second I was being played, or being lied to, or NC was broken I would have no problem rocking the boat, hell, I will sink the [email protected] thing if NC is broken. And YES I am still checking up on her and yes, she knows it and has no problem with it.


----------



## the guy

It sound like you got your best friend back.Been there and it feels good. Alls I can say is keep validating her action and confirm her resolve to a true R, by investigating
My wife was truely remorsefull and didn't mind the snooping b/c she had truely changed...for that matter the interigation were also excepted...a submission my fWW had that is behond words.

It took about a year for me to cool down, now the only time a check up on her is when something like working late comes up...but even then they are far a few between.

Its been 2-1/2 years since I confronted her and the GNO have stopped completely. Her life style has completely changed.

I only hope you reap the same rewards I have ....


----------



## B1

thebuckest said:


> Ok I read most of ur wifes post and some of your but since ur both posting on here let me address you both here and you can read it together.
> 
> First to your wife I don't think you truly realize what ur hubby was dealing with when it comes to trt. Testosterone replacement therapy for those not in the know. Basically everything you said ur husband wasn't doing can be traced back to that. Your hubby was basically becoming a women cause a man without test isn't a man at all in fact there nothing. We require test to do anything essentially anything from mood to lubricate joints or just be healthy. Now this has not been really treated till the last several years as steroids were always frowned upon. But this explains ur husband depression lack of motivation and lack of sex drive. I know its hard for a women to understand but its true. My wife once didn't understand then one time she took a pill form of steroid and understood completely. And thays not even a dose that a man needs to stay normal. So while ur wife continues to play the neglected card u need to remind her that u were sick and that is not an excuse. You need to be umderstanding that ur situation created a perfect storm in ur marriage and certaintly played a role in your wifes depression, but dpnt feel bad for it and dpnt let her hold that over your head. Ur wife has accepted responsibility which is good but tell her to stop saying but u pushed me to it. That's not owning her end of the responsibility nor is it productive.
> 
> Ok onto the positive and repair. Good thing is u two have a lot to R for. But a lot of work is ahead. Ur wife must forget this other man if she truly believes she loved him then u stand no chance. Its easy to think u love someone when you have been emotionally mistreated for years and u get suddenly showered with attention and afection buf u both know that's not necessarily true love. What u two had in the beginning is. Now the positive is ur medical situation is figured out and you are bouf to feel like your in your twenties again. Unfortunately ur wife will still feel old but that'd life. You need to hit the gym make sure u take slow as ur muscles will be stronger than ur jpints now. But get back some confidence and the attraction of ur wife. If u don't get exactly what u want google "blast and cruise on trt" that will definetly get ur wife attracted to you. And as far as the thoughts of ur wifes affair that will fade more and more as u and ur wife build a connection. Take time before u start to have intercourse with each other so when u finally get to that point where ur only thinking of each other and ur final connection should be intercourse. That will lifht the spark back into ur marriage. If not file for divorce and move on.
> 
> Now I'm off to spend the day with my lovely wife and son. I do want to thank u all for ur stories they certaintly make me look past the day to day problems my family deal with. Gl and wish u luck and love.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She takes full responsibility for the A, no blaming or excuses anymore or anything even close to that. 

About Her feeling old? NOT...Even with T injections keeping up with her is tough. She has more energy and more spunk than I could ever have. At 10pm I'm done, her, well she could go out for dinner and dancing, come back home and spend hours here on TAM. 
I only take T injections once ever 2 weeks, a very small dose 1ml. Perhaps I should see about an increase? 
...and I am sorry to burst your bubble but we are already having $ex, lots and lots of it and I'm very glad we are. The T is doing it's job in that area but I'm here to tell you, she is tough to keep up with in that area also, but I am managing too  !

We are in a honeymoon stage as some call it, I'll take it, it's wonderful. But we are not taking each other or this R for granted. We both know how quickly things can go downhill.
We both know there are anger issues brewing and that need to be faced. We are both keenly aware it's a fine line we are walking, but we are walking it, and I'm happy about that.


----------



## EI

anonymouskitty said:


> My apologies for the threadjack , EI B1.





Badblood said:


> Sorry, B1 and EI, for the threadjack. BTW, I think you will find that I have expressed my support for EI and B1, in their efforts.


Badblood and Anonymouskitty, no worries about the thread jack. While both of you have been pretty harsh, at times, believe it or not, I DO appreciate everyone's (well, almost everyone's... LOL) feedback. It has helped us immeasurably. I have read every single post on both my and my H's threads, although I let mine die a while back and post only on this one to simplify things, and I know that you have both provided positive encouragement and helpful insight, as well.


----------



## EI

Beowulf said:


> B1,
> 
> You are going to get angry. The fact that you know and expect it will help. EI, if you read this just know that he will lash out at times when his anger becomes too much to control. It WILL pass. It ALWAYS does. Just ride it out with him the way he rode out your roller coaster when you were in your affair. You came through the other side. So will he.
> 
> One thing about verification. Morrigan and I still check each other's computers, phones, email etc and its been 20 years. We vowed never to again allow there to be any secrets from each other or even the perception of secrets. B1, if you feel like checking things, check them. If it makes you feel safe, do it. EI, if he checks up on you know that he is doing it out of love and concern for himself certainly but also you and the marriage. You should encourage him to check your email, phone, computer etc because the more he does the safer he will feel and the more "in love" feelings you will both recapture.
> 
> B1, if you are smart, and I know you are, you will encourage EI to let you know if she sees trouble on the horizon vis-a-vis you withdrawing. I tend to do that too and I told Morrigan if she sees me start to turn inward she needs to tell me right away so I can pull myself back out. At first I would argue that I wasn't doing that but then I realized I was and she saw it. Now she will just give me "the look" and I'll know what she means.


Beowulf, as always, thank you for your positive and encouraging posts. My H has never been one to be prone to much "anger" or any other extreme display of emotion. Although with the T Injections, he is definitely displaying more of all of his emotions and _anger_ has obviously been one of them. I listen, I answer any and all questions, calmly and compassionately, and we move on. Of course that isn't easy for either of us because the answer to many of his questions is often something that I know will hurt him and I hate hurting him.... I hate it. He doesn't ask for details nearly as much as he used to. Every so often, I can tell that he has something specific on his mind and I'll say "Just ask me." He does and we discuss it. 

About B1 checking up on me, well, let me tell you, for so many years H was so absent from me and life, in general, that when he checks up on me, now, I love it. It makes me feel loved, cherished and adored. I wish that he didn't feel like he had to, but that is because of the terrible choice that I made. Under the circumstances, if he weren't checking up on me, then I wouldn't feel very loved. I know that HE is fighting for us just like I am. That makes me feel humbled and grateful.

About him withdrawing; he and I have become very in tune to one another's body language and thoughts. I was in the bathroom last weekend getting ready for our weekend getaway. He was in our bedroom and I asked him what was wrong. He said, "how do you know that something is wrong?" I said, "I can hear your silence from in here." Now, we discuss it and deal with it.


----------



## EI

Okay, I have a question. My family; Mom, Dad, Brother.... they're all deceased. I have some extended family... aunts, cousins, etc., but my only real family is H, our children and H's family. H's family has been my family since I was 17 and I'm now 48.... so, that's a long time. We have always been very close and now, throughout all of this, has been no exception. In fact, H's parents are divorced but they are the best divorced couple I have ever known. MIL is remarried to an awesome man and everyone gets along beautifully. They have always been good to me and have treated our oldest two children, who are MY biological niece and nephew, that we adopted, no different than their own biological grandchildren. They have all reached out to me with nothing but love, compassion, understanding and forgiveness since the very beginning of this. In fact, even if H & I were to divorce I know that they would all still love me. It's just the way they are. I have talked to all of them since D-Day, but I have only seen my MIL. There is no other way to describe her.... she is just not your average MIL. I adore her and she has been a rock to me throughout this and well, throughout everything. She's good to me. So, for the last few days I have been feeling an overwhelming urge to write them a letter. I would want to tell them that I love them and that I thank them for all of their kindness, support and encouragement throughout this situation. What do you think? I know that I can just say the words, but I want to do something more. Would it be stupid to send them an email? Or should I hand write something to each of them? Or should I just speak to them individually? I can't seem to get this off of my mind and I know that I need to do something. They have just been so wonderful and I need to acknowledge it, somehow.


----------



## Beowulf

betrayed1 said:


> She takes full responsibility for the A, no blaming or excuses anymore or anything even close to that.
> 
> About Her feeling old? NOT...Even with T injections keeping up with her is tough. She has more energy and more spunk than I could ever have. At 10pm I'm done, her, well she could go out for dinner and dancing, come back home and spend hours here on TAM.
> I only take T injections once ever 2 weeks, a very small dose 1ml. Perhaps I should see about an increase?
> ...and I am sorry to burst your bubble but we are already having $ex, lots and lots of it and I'm very glad we are. The T is doing it's job in that area but I'm here to tell you, she is tough to keep up with in that area also, but I am managing too  !
> 
> We are in a honeymoon stage as some call it, I'll take it, it's wonderful. But we are not taking each other or this R for granted. We both know how quickly things can go downhill.
> We both know there are anger issues brewing and that need to be faced. We are both keenly aware it's a fine line we are walking, but we are walking it, and I'm happy about that.


Ok, I give myself weekly injections of 75mg of testosterone enanthate. Make sure it is in fact testosterone enthanate that is being injected. There is another type of testosterone that is not as good but is cheaper so that is what insurance companies try to steer doctors into using. Don't let them shortchange you.

I'm sure that they are checking your T levels but understand that each man's T level is different. I believe the range for normal is between 260 and 1080. The reason for the large range is because my "normal" level might be 500, yours might be 650, Badblood's might be 750 and so on. A "normal" man of 45 years old has a T level of approx 600. I believe my T levels are around 750-800. That is my normal. The way you can tell when you've found your "normal" level is when you feel normal. I know that is very subjective but it is true. When you no longer feel tired when you shouldn't be tired. When you no longer have difficulty in the bedroom or you feel your sex drive is where you want it to be. When you just feel more like you remember you should feel. Then you know you're there.

When I first started T therapy my doctor would only take my treatment until I was just in the normal range. But I still felt crappy. I started looking up information online and educated myself on T therapy. On my next appointment my doctor still refused to up my dose so I found another doctor. Sometimes that is what you need to do. I also found that as "weird" as it is giving myself an injection I am better off doing it myself weekly than the monthly shots they were giving me. When you get a monthly shot you feel great on day 1 but by day 30 you feel like crap again. By keeping my shots on a weekly basis my T levels can be sustained better in the short term as well as long term.

Just some info I thought I'd pass on.


----------



## Beowulf

Empty Inside said:


> Okay, I have a question. My family; Mom, Dad, Brother.... they're all deceased. I have some extended family... aunts, cousins, etc., but my only real family is H, our children and H's family. H's family has been my family since I was 17 and I'm now 48.... so, that's a long time. We have always been very close and now, throughout all of this, has been no exception. In fact, H's parents are divorced but they are the best divorced couple I have ever known. MIL is remarried to an awesome man and everyone gets along beautifully. They have always been good to me and have treated our oldest two children, who are MY biological niece and nephew, that we adopted, no different than their own biological grandchildren. They have all reached out to me with nothing but love, compassion, understanding and forgiveness since the very beginning of this. In fact, even if H & I were to divorce I know that they would all still love me. It's just the way they are. I have talked to all of them since D-Day, but I have only seen my MIL. There is no other way to describe her.... she is just not your average MIL. I adore her and she has been a rock to me throughout this and well, throughout everything. She's good to me. So, for the last few days I have been feeling an overwhelming urge to write them a letter. I would want to tell them that I love them and that I thank them for all of their kindness, support and encouragement throughout this situation. What do you think? I know that I can just say the words, but I want to do something more. Would it be stupid to send them an email? Or should I hand write something to each of them? Or should I just speak to them individually? I can't seem to get this off of my mind and I know that I need to do something. They have just been so wonderful and I need to acknowledge it, somehow.


It depends. In cases where communication needs to be as quick as possible I use email. But nothing beats a hand written letter for a more personal touch. Believe it or not face to face might be less than satisfying. You may forget things that you really want to say and sometimes even among those who are close there can be an uncomfortable feeling. I would hand write a personal letter to each. That way you can customize it to show what aspect of each person's support meant the most to you.


----------



## Badblood

betrayed1 said:


> You lost me a little bit here....
> 
> If I don't like what she is doing I tell her, If I don't like her response, her actions I will tell her. I don't have a problem rocking the boat...I rocked it yesterday and some earlier today.
> We got through them both with positive results. I shook her up really bad today, she was a mess for a better part of this afternoon. She never got defensive, never got angry, answered every question and resolved everything. I can't honestly see how she could be doing more to make this R work.
> 
> She could not be being more transparent, more comforting, more helpful and more telling, more honest right now. She will text me many times a day and ask how I am doing, She calls a couple times a day with the same. She is, as far as I can tell, doing everything she can to make things right. She just told me today how lucky she is to have me and for me to be giving HER another chance. I am hearing things you all are not and I am hearing them a lot and seeing her positive actions.
> 
> Yes, I love her and Yes I want this to work out but if I thought for a second I was being played, or being lied to, or NC was broken I would have no problem rocking the boat, hell, I will sink the [email protected] thing if NC is broken. And YES I am still checking up on her and yes, she knows it and has no problem with it.


Well, B1, you are the man on the scene, and know how your wife is showing her remorse and renewed commitment to the marriage. We only get what you give us, but it SOUNDS like she is finally losing that sense of entitlement that was a major stumbling block to your recovery, and you are realizing that whatever was your responsibility for the state of the marriage, her cheating was 100% her responsibility and fault. this is good. I see no reason to be here. You can and should handle it for yourselves. If you have a question or comment for me, PM me and I'll answer. Good Luck to you both.


----------



## B1

Beowulf said:


> Ok, I give myself weekly injections of 75mg of testosterone enanthate. Make sure it is in fact testosterone enthanate that is being injected. There is another type of testosterone that is not as good but is cheaper so that is what insurance companies try to steer doctors into using. Don't let them shortchange you.
> 
> I'm sure that they are checking your T levels but understand that each man's T level is different. I believe the range for normal is between 260 and 1080. The reason for the large range is because my "normal" level might be 500, yours might be 650, Badblood's might be 750 and so on. A "normal" man of 45 years old has a T level of approx 600. I believe my T levels are around 750-800. That is my normal. The way you can tell when you've found your "normal" level is when you feel normal. I know that is very subjective but it is true. When you no longer feel tired when you shouldn't be tired. When you no longer have difficulty in the bedroom or you feel your sex drive is where you want it to be. When you just feel more like you remember you should feel. Then you know you're there.
> 
> When I first started T therapy my doctor would only take my treatment until I was just in the normal range. But I still felt crappy. I started looking up information online and educated myself on T therapy. On my next appointment my doctor still refused to up my dose so I found another doctor. Sometimes that is what you need to do. I also found that as "weird" as it is giving myself an injection I am better off doing it myself weekly than the monthly shots they were giving me. When you get a monthly shot you feel great on day 1 but by day 30 you feel like crap again. By keeping my shots on a weekly basis my T levels can be sustained better in the short term as well as long term.
> 
> Just some info I thought I'd pass on.



I give myself a 200mg shot every 2 weeks. It's Cypionate, I thought it was a good one, not sure now though? Is that considered the cheaper type?

I still am not FULL of energy, like I was when I was 20 or 30, but it has made a huge difference in the bedroom. So, I know it's working.

Thanks Beowulf for all your help and time here!


----------



## thebuckest

Ok not sure how much research either of u have done on test but let me educate u a lil if u don't mind. There is no qaulity difference between test cyp and test enthanate. The only difference is the ester that is attached to the test. The ester which is the cyponate and enthanate is lile a time release mechanism. It controls how long the test releases into your system. Now with that said u are both getting ur scripts from american doctors I can gaurentee you the qaulity is top notch. And betrayed if you read my message I sent you u will get more information there about what to do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## thebuckest

Oh yeah just so u know almost 95% of the worlds steroids comes from mexico or china and its just a powder that is cooked and mixed with a sterile oil so there really is no difference between tests just the esters and no cheap qaulity gets into the us script system.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## carpenoctem

Beowulf said:


> Zug, they are very much on the road to reconciliation and things are going very well for them. I think EI was just asking what the best way to show how grateful she is to his family for their support and understanding while they build themselves a better stronger marriage.



Betraye1, Empty Inside, Beowulf:

*Please accept my sincere apology. *I obviously misread the situation / missed some developments. I will remove that post.

Beowulf: may I request you to remove that post from your quoted reply too? (Why keep a jarring note where it does not fit?)

Best of luck to you all.


----------



## B1

Bad day yesterday, the physical aspect of this A can really just crush me. And for the first time, I felt pure hate for what happened, pure hate for him. That sob gets away scott free, no pain, no hurt, no nothing. A man that I didn't know, did nothing too just going on with his day as if all is well.

I HATE this. I cried a lot yesterday evening, a lot.I feel it makes me look weak and pathetic, but I am not. This is just facing it, dealing with it and it just flat out hurts. It hurts to think of him and her together in bed....the images that go on in my head are nothing short of traumatizing. 

Now, on the good side, she is doing everything she can to make things right, she makes my lunches again,
irons my pants, she is loving me, she is there at the drop of a hat, she cries with me, and honestly, she couldn't be doing more.
I just got a card this morning from her and a lengthy wonderful loving note inside. I have received 3 texts so far this morning from her just saying how much she loves me and how sorry she is for all this. It does help a lot but it can't erase what happened. I still have to
deal with this A.

She is scared I won't be able to get over this and that she will
loose me. I just have to get through this hurt and move on..but [email protected] this hurts, I mean it is pain beyhond anything
I ever imagined. 

I do love her, I mean I really love her and I still want this to work and feel very hopeful it will. I'm more just venting right now, it's theraputic and helps me a great deal just to type my feelings out like this then get a little feedback from those that have been where I am now.


----------



## bandit.45

You're going into the anger phase.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

Vent away B1.
That is why TAM is here.

And both of you will.survive this. Not just because you both love each other but because you want to be together.......
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

I am aware from reading that the emotional aspect of this is what's more dangerous..However, the physical part is what's eating me up inside. Is this normal? is the physical part what eats at most men? I mean the thought of my wife in his bed, naked....and I take it much further in my mind...it's eating at me, it's crushing, it hurts and it now is making me angry..I'm a little confused right now about how I feel about it, sad, mad, pi$$ed off, hurt..all this and I have to function at work too.


----------



## morituri

Has your IC given you any tools to deal with the mind movies? Have you tried the suggestions in the articles below?:

*Cheated On, Tortured by Images*
*http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/40190-feeding-affair-image-beast.html#post593486*
*Erase Obsessive Affair Images (in 30 Minutes)*


----------



## anonymouskitty

Very Very Very Very normal, don't try to hide your disgust and anger( channel this in a way that you both are able to sit down and talk about it in a rational manner). Certain mind movies will forever be burned into my mind. The movies fade over time but they stay with you and thats a sacrifice you need to make if you want R.You need to discuss your feelings with EI in such a way that you don't shame her but rather tell her how hurt you feel. What you can do is express your disappointment in her

The mistake I did even though my fWW was remorseful was to go into rage mode and stay that way for days on end. The bitterness and anger are very addictive. The movies got so bad that it hampered our sex life even though we went at it like bunny rabbits. 

Whatever you do B1 don't physically or emotionally abuse your wife, don't make the same mistakes I did. Walk away and let the anger cool and then head back in and discuss what you felt and how you can improve your situation.

It might also help you to picture your wife as a large gorilla and that the OM was engaging in a public display of beastiality and then you interrupted and bashed his brains out *beats chest*, this made me laugh despite my anger.


----------



## Beowulf

I went through the same anger phase. I tried to hold it in until it built up and I exploded. Don't do that. As you feel it express it. You need to let this play itself out. Exercise to help work off that extra emotional energy. Just remember that it is normal and temporary. It does go away. After you get through the anger there are ways to combat the mind movies. I can give you suggestions, things that helped me. Don't feel bad about crying. Its part of it. Just know that its temporary and there is most definitely a light at the end of this tunnel.


----------



## Beowulf

EI, if you check this thread understand that he has to go through this. Keep doing what you''re doing. Reassure him, let him know how sorry you are that he is going through this. All good. Don't get down and don't fear that you will lose him. This is going to be the hardest part but you are strong and he is strong. He was there for you, now you be there for him. This is not the end. Its the beginning of something new and better.


----------



## B1

Thank you all so much for your posts...it really helps...really struggling right now and I am at work, it's tough. I feel sad, mad and agitated, I'm physically hot. 

Morituri - I re-read all those links and I will use those techniques. I had read them a while back but did forget.

Think I'll use the gorilla technique to anonymous...that made me smile.

I HATE what happened, I HATE that I have to deal with these images, to know there IS truth in them, to know they did happen in some way or another. I do want to ask obvious questions.. like WHY..how could you? why did you have to take your GD clothes off?


----------



## EI

betrayed1 said:


> I am aware from reading that the emotional aspect of this is what's more dangerous..However, the physical part is what's eating me up inside. Is this normal? is the physical part what eats at most men? I mean the thought of my wife in his bed, naked....and I take it much further in my mind...it's eating at me, it's crushing, it hurts and it now is making me angry..I'm a little confused right now about how I feel about it, sad, mad, pi$$ed off, hurt..all this and I have to function at work too.



Babe, I know you're hurting.... and it's killing me. I feel so inadequate to be able to stop your pain, but at the same time, I know that I'm the one that you need/want to comfort you right now. Sometimes, I feel afraid that you won't be able to heal if you have to live with me and look at me every day knowing what I did and having to fight those awful mind movies. If I thought that the only way that you would heal is for us to be apart then I would understand that. I wouldn't be happy, but I would try to accept it. But, I don't think that is what either one of us really want. I know I don't. You were so strong for me in the beginning of all of this. You comforted me, held me, loved me, and protected me from my own impulsiveness in the first few weeks after D-Day. Your genuine love for me was the most evident when I was the least deserving of your love. You made me fall in love with you all over again. I have never felt more loved and cherished in my life, but I have, also, never felt so scared. I was so afraid of opening my heart back up to you, only for things to go back to the way they were. But, I'm going to be strong for you, now. We can do this together. I'll hold you and you'll hold me, we'll hold each other. I'm so sorry that I hurt you, I'm so sorry that this ever happened. But, I'm not sorry that we have "remembered" why we fell in love in the first place and that we are, both, experiencing all of the love and commitment, and a passion, like we've never felt before, that we are feeling right now. I hope our love affair never ends. 

So, we can share this thread and share our bed, and our mansion in Heaven. Because, like I told you so many years ago, if we can't share our mansion in Heaven together, then it won't be Heaven to me! <3


----------



## Acabado

Let the healing going on.
Sending strenth.


----------



## EI

Acabado said:


> Let the healing going on.
> Sending strenth.



Thank you..... we need it. We are doing as well as can be expected, but H is starting to deal with his anger..... it hurts me so much to know that he is hurting, I caused it and I can't make it stop. It breaks my heart. I unleashed years worth of pent up bitterness on him in the first couple of weeks after D-Day. Yeah, I know, that sounds strange, doesn't it? But, it is the truth. After suppressing his emotions for years, my H's walls all came tumbling down, only to have to face the most pain he has ever had to deal with. When it would have been so easy, and justifiable, for him to walk away, he decided to show me just how much he really loved me. He loved me the most when I deserved it the least. That big jerk is making me fall in love with him all over again!


----------



## bandit.45

Hate to say I told you so. But I'm a d!ck. You should know that about me now. 

The anger has arrived. 

Empty Inside, this is your pennance. Absorb it or let your husband go. Those are your only choices.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Complexity

I've been lurking on this thread ever since people finally became more supportive of you both. All I can say is that I'm really happy for you. I guess I was right to have rooted for you from the beginning EI. 

As others have said, you're about to enter perhaps the most difficult stage of your reconciliation, a phase that will never die but will eventually sooth if you both do the heavy lifting and continue with MC. I'm still very optimistic for you and sincerely wish you both the best. You're perhaps one of the few WS that I've actually been sympathetic with EI and I'm glad you reconnected with your H.


----------



## Turner9

I hate to say it, but I agree. As gut wrenching as it is. It can be done! I have friends who are accomplishing it right now! Its been years since their incident and yet they still wrestle with some expects of it. Yet, you'd never know by how sweet they are on each other. It gives me Hope.


----------



## MattMatt

The worse part for me was knowing that I could not be all that my wife wanted/needed. 

In a previous relationship when I had the revelation that I was not the only love of my then love's life, the song Torn Between Two Lovers helped me heal.


----------



## warlock07

JB100 said:


> Empty Inside,
> 
> How often did you meet with your AP for sex? Was it frequent?


check her threads


----------



## bandit.45

JB100 said:


> Empty Inside,
> 
> How often did you meet with your AP for sex? Was it frequent?


Doesn't matter. She did what she did. Now comes the fallout. She thought what they were going through was bad. She and her husband have only begun the journey through the Valley of Shadow.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

bandit.45 said:


> Hate to say I told you so. But I'm a ****. You should know that about me now.
> 
> The anger has arrived.
> 
> Empty Inside, this is your pennance. Absorb it or let your husband go. Those are your only choices.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


H is a lot more laid back than the average guy. His anger has not been in a rage or explosive by any means, just more asking "Why?" and "How could you?" in a much louder, angrier tone. His initial numbness has worn off. I think he is feeling a bit more secure in my genuine love returning for him, so he feels safer, now, to vent his anger. It hurts me more than anything else because I know how much pain he's in. But, because of the way he demonstrated his unconditional love for me in the first few weeks, his anger, now, tells me how much he loves me more than anything else. If he didn't love me, he wouldn't hurt so much. Does that make sense? I just know that every storm we weather together, we get closer. This has been horrible for both of us, but we have never really been closer than we are right now. Spending my life with him does not feel like penance.



Complexity said:


> I've been lurking on this thread ever since people finally became more supportive of you both. All I can say is that I'm really happy for you. I guess I was right to have rooted for you from the beginning EI.
> 
> As others have said, you're about to enter perhaps the most difficult stage of your reconciliation, a phase that will never die but will eventually sooth if you both do the heavy lifting and continue with MC. I'm still very optimistic for you and sincerely wish you both the best. You're perhaps one of the few WS that I've actually been sympathetic with EI and I'm glad you reconnected with your H.


Thank you so much! H & I have truly appreciated your support.... you were one of the first, here, to really read between the lines of what H & I were, both, saying and to offer us encouragement in our desire to R when it seemed like our marriage had no hope. Sometimes, a little encouragement goes a long way. 



Turner9 said:


> I hate to say it, but I agree. As gut wrenching as it is. It can be done! I have friends who are accomplishing it right now! Its been years since their incident and yet they still wrestle with some expects of it. Yet, you'd never know by how sweet they are on each other. It gives me Hope.


That gives me hope, too! I think that it's important to forgive, but never to forget.... H & I have learned so much about ourselves and about one another. This will always be a part of us. As horrible as it is, it may have saved our marriage.


----------



## EI

bandit.45 said:


> Doesn't matter. She did what she did. Now comes the fallout. She thought what they were going through was bad. She and her husband have only begun the journey through the Valley of Shadow.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Would you quit being such a curmudgeon all of the time!!!


----------



## warlock07

New word "curmudgeon" acquired


----------



## bandit.45

Empty Inside said:


> Would you quit being such a curmudgeon all of the time!!!


Someone nees to hit you from the worst side so that you have a baseline. 

I want you and your husband to make it. I need you to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Complexity

I don't think it's appropriate for us to speculate or even discuss this, especially since her H is going through a rough time with the physical aspect of the A and they're trying to R. We should just leave it be.


----------



## bandit.45

JB100 said:


> Oh I did not know that she never revealed it. Well in that case, I guess we shall never know.


Buddy. Take an hour out of your life and read her threads. It was a long term PA and she feels like sh*t.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

MattMatt said:


> The worse part for me was knowing that I could not be all that my wife wanted/needed.
> 
> In a previous relationship when I had the revelation that I was not the only love of my then love's life, the song Torn Between Two Lovers helped me heal.



MM, I think that anyone that has read any of your posts knows that you have been much more than your wife could want or need throughout your marriage. I think that one of the things that all BS's and CS's learn is that a CS strays because of something that is missing inside of themselves.... not because of what their spouse is or is not doing. Not to say that the BS might not have contributed to the breakdown of the marriage, but that the CS had other choices than to cheat.


----------



## warlock07

We were pointing that out to you in the "BURN THAT WITCH!!" phase EI. Of course, the message somehow got lost in the insults and retorts in your thread


----------



## EI

bandit.45 said:


> Someone nees to hit you from the worst side so that you have a baseline.
> 
> I want you and your husband to make it. I need you to.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We're gonna make it.... we really are! And, thanks for that "little bit of support there"..... I think that's what that was, right?


----------



## Badblood

Empty Inside said:


> H is a lot more laid back than the average guy. His anger has not been in a rage or explosive by any means, just more asking "Why?" and "How could you?" in a much louder, angrier tone. His initial numbness has worn off. I think he is feeling a bit more secure in my genuine love returning for him, so he feels safer, now, to vent his anger. It hurts me more than anything else because I know how much pain he's in. But, because of the way he demonstrated his unconditional love for me in the first few weeks, his anger, now, tells me how much he loves me more than anything else. If he didn't love me, he wouldn't hurt so much. Does that make sense? I just know that every storm we weather together, we get closer. This has been horrible for both of us, but we have never really been closer than we are right now. Spending my life with him does not feel like penance.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you so much! H & I have truly appreciated your support.... you were one of the first, here, to really read between the lines of what H & I were, both, saying and to offer us encouragement in our desire to R when it seemed like our marriage had no hope. Sometimes, a little encouragement goes a long way.
> 
> 
> 
> That gives me hope, too! I think that it's important to forgive, but never to forget.... H & I have learned so much about ourselves and about one another. This will always be a part of us. As horrible as it is, it may have saved our marriage.


The $64,000 question is, is this worth the saving? EI, I'm pulling for you, but you must NEVER, EVER think that cheating solves or helps ANYTHING!!! That is the kind of foggy thinking that got you into this mess, in the first place. You MUST change your mindset. Instead of thinking that this affair "saved", your marriage, you SHOULD be thinking that your marriage is a good one, IN SPITE, of your cheating. See the difference? If you believe that cheating "saved", your marriage, would you cheat again, if your marriage was going through a rough spot, in order to "save" it again? See what I'm saying? For you to be there for B1, lose that foggy kind of thinking. Realize that the affair did no good for anybody, and the only thing that "saved", your marriage was your husband.


----------



## EI

warlock07 said:


> We were pointing that out to you in the "BURN THAT WITCH!!" phase EI. Of course, the message somehow got lost in the insults and retorts in your thread





Nah...... I figured that out all by myself!


----------



## bandit.45

Empty Inside said:


> We're gonna make it.... we really are! And, thanks for that "little bit of support there"..... I think that's what that was, right?


I've supported your marriage from the beginning. I just have a nasty way of showing it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Badblood said:


> the only thing that "saved", your marriage was your husband.



Yeah, my husband has *A LOT* to do with it.... but *WE* are saving our marriage together..... because it/we are worth it! And, no, I will never cheat again. If at some point H or I decide that, for whatever reason, this marriage is not working, then we will go our separate ways knowing that we came together and tried to make it work. Affairs never fix/solve anything. But, it is possible to take something bad and use it as a catalyst to make something better. That is what we have chosen to do.


----------



## Badblood

BTW, EI, if you want to help B1 with the "mind movies", and such, I've got an idea on how this can be accomplished, which I will PM you.


----------



## EI

bandit.45 said:


> I've supported your marriage from the beginning. I just have a nasty way of showing it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Ya think?


----------



## EI

Badblood said:


> BTW, EI, if you want to help B1 with the "mind movies", and such, I've got an idea on how this can be accomplished, which I will PM you.


Our MC suggested that H replace the OM with himself in the mind movies. I think that is a great idea and we have been making movies every chance we get. God, I hope this part of R never ends! 

Send the PM to H or myself. And, thanks!


----------



## EI

MattMatt said:


> The worse part for me was knowing that I could not be all that my wife wanted/needed.
> 
> In a previous relationship when I had the revelation that I was not the only love of my then love's life, the song Torn Between Two Lovers helped me heal.



BTW, in a carryover from Someday Dig's thread, I suppose I do have a "Kentucky" accent. I lived here my whole life, very close to where the Kentucky Derby is run at Churchill Downs. I am a true Southern girl.... born and bred. I absolutely love this state.... I can't imagine living anywhere else. Bluegrass, horses and great bourbon.....it's hard to beat!


----------



## EI

_*Warlock*: Are you reconciling because you are enjoying the new found power in your relationship? Is it one of the reasons after being ill treated/abused for for so much time ? (Again, honest question. One poster who was dead set on divorce, reconciled after his WW grabbed his legs, grovelling for an R )

Last edited by warlock07; Today at 11:18 PM. _


It isn't about power. It's about love. People get tired of hearing the CS say this, buuuuuut...... here goes: I didn't think he loved me, anymore. I don't feel powerful, I feel loved, adored, cherished.... And, because I do, I feel safe enough to allow myself to be vulnerable, again, with him to risk opening my heart back up and loving him and being loved by him, but bigger, better and stronger than ever before. I don't feel powerful, I feel happy. But, my happiness is tempered because he's hurting. But, I am going to love him through the hurt. H & I both have power. We have the power to hurt one another or to help heal one another. We are choosing healing and it makes me happy. I really mean that.


----------



## Badblood

Empty Inside said:


> BTW, in a carryover from Someday Dig's thread, I suppose I do have a "Kentucky" accent. I lived here my whole life, very close to where the Kentucky Derby is run at Churchill Downs. I am a true Southern girl.... born and bred. I absolutely love this state.... I can't imagine living anywhere else. Bluegrass, horses and great bourbon.....it's hard to beat!


I'm from Ashland.


----------



## EI

Badblood said:


> I'm from Ashland.



Really? But, you don't live there, now? You were in the military, right? I guess you already know all about good Bourbon, then...


----------



## Badblood

Empty Inside said:


> Really? But, you don't live there, now? You were in the military, right? I guess you already know all about good Bourbon, then...


I'm a Marine brat, but was born there and went to school there. GF and I are thinking about moving back. We are looking at a farm near Winchester. What I'm hoping is that, now that my ex is moving to CA, we can drop off each others radar, and won't be in contact.


----------



## Badblood

And yes, I do get the "****el tickle", every so often.


----------



## warlock07

Empty Inside said:


> _*Warlock*: Are you reconciling because you are enjoying the new found power in your relationship? Is it one of the reasons after being ill treated/abused for for so much time ? (Again, honest question. One poster who was dead set on divorce, reconciled after his WW grabbed his legs, grovelling for an R )
> 
> Last edited by warlock07; Today at 11:18 PM. _
> 
> 
> It isn't about power. It's about love. People get tired of hearing the CS say this, buuuuuut...... here goes: I didn't think he loved me, anymore. I don't feel powerful, I feel loved, adored, cherished.... And, because I do, I feel safe enough to allow myself to be vulnerable, again, with him to risk opening my heart back up and loving him and being loved by him, but bigger, better and stronger than ever before. I don't feel powerful, I feel happy. But, my happiness is tempered because he's hurting. But, I am going to love him through the hurt. H & I both have power. We have the power to hurt one another or to help heal one another. We are choosing healing and it makes me happy. I really mean that.



Actually I wasn't asking you this question. I was asking the OP(Somedaydig). I asked because it seems that she blamed and gaslighted about problems in the marriage on him a lot before the D-day


----------



## EI

warlock07 said:


> Actually I wasn't asking you this question. I was asking the OP(Somedaydig). I asked because it seems that she blamed and gaslighted about problems in the marriage on him a lot before the D-day



Well, now I'm embarrassed.... but I feel better because I never felt that I was ill treated/abused..... just neglected..... egg on my face now


----------



## warlock07

Ha ha..Don't you sleep?


----------



## B1

Well, yesterday was a mixed bag of emotions...I had anger issues but for the most part I controlled them, From what I have read here I knew I didn't want to scare my wife with anger\rage, but I needed to vent that anger..I'm glad I read the other posts and what not to do.

I blew briefly but contollably while driving of all things..The steering wheel recieved the most of my anger, I still scared her though and that's not what I want. 

She doesn't know how to respond to my anger, mainly because it was coming across as questions that she didn't want to answer....but did, then it would come across as an attack from her answer. So she was getting upset knowing that my response was going to be more anger. There was some accusing some "how could you"..but mostly it was question after question then rude comments to her answers. I think this brings on tremendous guilt for her.

I believe She is feeling a lot of guilt now and she's afraid to confront that guilt. My anger, I think, drives that home.

She got scared and then loud answering my questions that I really shouldn't be asking because it's just going to hurt me more...but it was like I couldn't stop asking damaging questions...I don't know why I do it?
But, I don't know what else to do other than ask questions, mostly pertaining to $ex. It's just so hard to except...so hard to know she did this, so hard to picture her doing this, I am trying some of the techniques everyone has mentioned to help with these images and movies but sometimes it's like they play and I HAVE tied up and gagged the man playing them so he can't stop it. It's frustrating. 

*Am I supposed to relieve this?* is this part of dealing with it. I mean, *if I succesfully trick my mind and never deal with those images again is that really a good thing?*

I made sure she understood I *WOULD NEVER* hurt her, I have never wanted to harm her, that's not me never has been and never will be. I just need her to listen to me when I am angry and allow me to vent this anger. It's obvious it does pass, I guess it will raise it's ugly head again sooner than later?

So far today, no anger, no anything really, it's been quite. We had a good morning, we talked and I explained to her how to handle me when I blow. Most of my questions are rhetorical, not really looknig for answers, I just need to vent this and she needs to listen to me and take it. 

Sorry I know I jumped all over the place in this post.


----------



## anonymouskitty

The commute was the hardest part of my day too, lunch breaks and when I stretched my legs a bit and had a cup of tea. 

When you're left alone with your thoughts B1 you get upset and start dwelling on it and it sure is bloody addictive I can tell, try to keep yourself as busy as possible and it would help if EI talked to you during your commute or during your lunch break.

EI a couple of calls here and there, some texting will give B1 ample assurance because at the moment that is what a BS needs.

Getting over the haunting images takes time and ask all the questions regarding the sex to your heart's content because being threatened by the OM is natural that has been the primary fear of all men since time immemorial. 

Take a day at a time and document your thoughts here. It will help you.


----------



## EI

warlock07 said:


> Ha ha..Don't you sleep?



I'll sleep when I die....I get about 3-5 hours a night... it's the curse of being a mother to such a big family, the boys all work various shifts, at night. I like to know that everyone is home safe and sound etc.... plus I'm just a little on the hyper side, at times. I have two speeds, HIGH and OFF. No in-between!


----------



## bandit.45

Empty Inside said:


> I'll sleep when I die....I get about 3-5 hours a night... it's the curse of being a mother to such a big family, the boys all work various shifts, at night. I like to know that everyone is home safe and sound etc.... plus I'm just a little on the hyper side, at times. I have two speeds, HIGH and OFF. No in-between!


Type A personality. I bet you're the "fixer" in the family: wanting to solve everyone's issues.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

betrayed1 said:


> We had a good morning, we talked and I explained to her how to handle me when I blow. Most of my questions are rhetorical, not really looknig for answers, I just need to vent this and she needs to listen to me and take it.


Well, why didn't you tell me that I didn't have to, actually, answer those questions?... It would have made it a lot easier if I'd known that I was just supposed to listen without answering! 

P.S. Do you know how difficult it is for me to use your quoted text and not fix your misspelled words and grammar?  I love you! I really do! <3


----------



## EI

bandit.45 said:


> Type A personality. I bet you're the "fixer" in the family: wanting to solve everyone's issues.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



*YOU HAVE NOOOOOO IDEA! 

* I never had a choice. My mother trained me to be the "fixer" of all things early on. Dad's response to that was "Do whatever it takes to make your Mother happy." Mom, Dad and my oldest brother are deceased and I'm still "fixing" things that were left undone. Our youngest son is a lot like me and I'm already concerned that he takes on too much and holds his resentment inside. I worry about him.


----------



## SomedayDig

Bourbon. That word caught my attention in this thread!! I'm a big fan.

Seriously, later on I'm going to have to read this whole thing as it is interesting that Regret and I are both here as you B1 and EI are here.


----------



## morituri

Empty Inside said:


> Our youngest son is a lot like me and I'm already concerned that he takes on too much and holds his resentment inside. I worry about him.


Have you counseled him? Have you let him know of the dangers of being a fixer?


----------



## EI

SomedayDig said:


> Bourbon. That word caught my attention in this thread!! I'm a big fan.
> 
> Seriously, later on I'm going to have to read this whole thing as it is interesting that Regret and I are both here as you B1 and EI are here.


I was just on your thread reading. I have read, both, your and your wife's threads all the way through. We certainly have some similarities and are both early in our R. I started a thread of my own on June 11 and my husband started his a few days later. After a short time, I began to post on his to simplify things for anyone who was following our story. My A lasted 15 months and was with an old-flame from my teen years. We are 7 1/2 weeks past D-Day #2 and we are trying to work through this. I'll be pulling for you guys. It would seem that your wife and I share something in common. We have remarkably strong husbands who love us so much that they are willing to bear the unbearable so that we can give our marriage and life together another chance. Good luck to you and your wife!


----------



## SomedayDig

Wow! 7 1/2 weeks past and you guys are posting about it! Good. Regret and I decided that posting on the same site would be a good way to get our story out and maybe, possibly help someone out, while stimulating more conversation between us. I have meetings to go to today, but I intend to read both your thread and this one. Good luck to you and your husband as well!


----------



## Beowulf

Complexity said:


> I've been lurking on this thread ever since people finally became more supportive of you both. All I can say is that I'm really happy for you. I guess I was right to have rooted for you from the beginning EI.
> 
> As others have said, you're about to enter perhaps the most difficult stage of your reconciliation, a phase that will never die but will eventually sooth if you both do the heavy lifting and continue with MC. I'm still very optimistic for you and sincerely wish you both the best. You're perhaps one of the few WS that I've actually been sympathetic with EI and I'm glad you reconnected with your H.


If the R is done right, and so far every indication is that both B1 and EI are doing it all right, the anger will go completely away. There are two other couples that Morrigan and I socialize with here that are also in R. The anger of those BS has completely dissipated as well. But you are right EI has to be there for him like he was there for her. Now is the true test of her love for him because we've already seen his love for her. I believe she is strong enough to pass through this with him and come out the other side stronger for the journey. I know B1's metal has been hardened and tempered so he'll get through this stage of the recovery. We all had to.


----------



## EI

morituri said:


> Have you counseled him? Have you let him know of the dangers of being a fixer?


Absolutely, he has been in counseling and takes a mild anti-depressant. He gets regular check-ups with his pediatrician and if we think that more counseling is needed then he gets it. I am, also, very cautious about not putting too much responsibility on him as my mother did to me. Our children have all been taught morals, values, and the importance of working. My theory on their teen-age part-time jobs has always been, "If it's not illegal or immoral, then you're not too good to do it." But, just because he has been willing to take on so much responsibility, at times, does not mean that I have chosen to take advantage of that and make him my hands and feet like I felt my Mom did to me, all too often. My son has a huge heart and so much compassion and empathy for others. He has been so good to our older special needs son. For that, I'm grateful, but I want for him to enjoy his childhood.


----------



## Complexity

Beowulf said:


> If the R is done right, and so far every indication is that both B1 and EI are doing it all right, the anger will go completely away. There are two other couples that Morrigan and I socialize with here that are also in R. The anger of those BS has completely dissipated as well. But you are right EI has to be there for him like he was there for her. Now is the true test of her love for him because we've already seen his love for her. I believe she is strong enough to pass through this with him and come out the other side stronger for the journey. I know B1's metal has been hardened and tempered so he'll get through this stage of the recovery. We all had to.


I really hope so. I'm astonished at the rate of their recovery and no one would've anticipated this a couple of weeks ago. I sincerely hope B1 rids himself of the anger completely and has nothing but happy days with EI from here onwards, they both deserve it.


----------



## EI

Okay, I've got to get off of TAM and get some things done! It's really quite addictive, isn't it?


----------



## Beowulf

betrayed1 said:


> Well, yesterday was a mixed bag of emotions...I had anger issues but for the most part I controlled them, From what I have read here I knew I didn't want to scare my wife with anger\rage, but I needed to vent that anger..I'm glad I read the other posts and what not to do.
> 
> I blew briefly but contollably while driving of all things..The steering wheel recieved the most of my anger, I still scared her though and that's not what I want.
> 
> She doesn't know how to respond to my anger, mainly because it was coming across as questions that she didn't want to answer....but did, then it would come across as an attack from her answer. So she was getting upset knowing that my response was going to be more anger. There was some accusing some "how could you"..but mostly it was question after question then rude comments to her answers. I think this brings on tremendous guilt for her.
> 
> I believe She is feeling a lot of guilt now and she's afraid to confront that guilt. My anger, I think, drives that home.
> 
> She got scared and then loud answering my questions that I really shouldn't be asking because it's just going to hurt me more...but it was like I couldn't stop asking damaging questions...I don't know why I do it?
> But, I don't know what else to do other than ask questions, mostly pertaining to $ex. It's just so hard to except...so hard to know she did this, so hard to picture her doing this, I am trying some of the techniques everyone has mentioned to help with these images and movies but sometimes it's like they play and I HAVE tied up and gagged the man playing them so he can't stop it. It's frustrating.
> 
> *Am I supposed to relieve this?* is this part of dealing with it. I mean, *if I succesfully trick my mind and never deal with those images again is that really a good thing?*
> 
> I made sure she understood I *WOULD NEVER* hurt her, I have never wanted to harm her, that's not me never has been and never will be. I just need her to listen to me when I am angry and allow me to vent this anger. It's obvious it does pass, I guess it will raise it's ugly head again sooner than later?
> 
> So far today, no anger, no anything really, it's been quite. We had a good morning, we talked and I explained to her how to handle me when I blow. Most of my questions are rhetorical, not really looknig for answers, I just need to vent this and she needs to listen to me and take it.
> 
> Sorry I know I jumped all over the place in this post.


When you use the methods that Mori and others have suggested for dealing with the mind movies you aren't tricking your mind. You are putting an end to the ongoing obsession. You already know all the answers. The questions are just your mind not wanting to accept the facts of what happened. The anger is the mind vacillating back and forth between the knowing and the accepting. Does that make sense?

I'll tell you what helped me to make sense of what Morrigan did during her affair (and shortly after). I chose to see her as playing a part, acting in a movie. It was not her, it was her role at that time. Yes she chose that role and she played that role but in the end it wasn't her, it was a character. The real Morrigan is the one I've been married to the last 20 years. The one that has shared my life with me, the one that has bled for me and has bound my wounds when I bled for her. It was like she was taken from me for a time but then returned a stronger, wiser, more compassionate loving woman. That is how I chose to see things.

Your real wife is the one that now holds you when you are crying. The one that submits to your angry outbursts because she knows it helps you heal. The one that loves you and cares for you. That's the real woman and the one that will be with you forever.


----------



## Sara8

Beowulf said:


> Your real wife is the one that now holds you when you are crying. The one that submits to your angry outbursts because she knows it helps you heal. The one that loves you and cares for you. That's the real woman and the one that will be with you forever.


I agree with your approach. However not all cheating spouses submit to the anger because it helps the wounded spouse heal. 

Some become angry about it. Scream about the BS just getting over it, etc. 

In my case as in Zanna's described cases, sometimes the husband makes passive aggressive threats, that further wound the BS.

In those cases, where the wound is constantly being torn open reconciliation may not be possible or probably even advisable. 

Like Zanna's spouse, my STBEH has been controlling but passive aggressive all his life.

Like a two year old, if he does not get his way, he sulks, he pouts, he leaves the house, refuses counseling. He is always right and everyone else is wrong. 

My STBEH one time had a boss tell him that when he got into a Tifff over an account with a coworker. 

The boss told him, he was partially wrong, too, but failed to see it. 

he did the same in the marriage before and after the affair. 

Thing are different for you. Morrigan sounds willing to accept some blame if not all for the affair.

If my STBEH reacted as Morrigan has, we might have had a chance.


----------



## B1

Complexity said:


> I really hope so. I'm astonished at the rate of their recovery and no one would've anticipated this a couple of weeks ago. I sincerely hope B1 rids himself of the anger completely and has nothing but happy days with EI from here onwards, they both deserve it.


I sometimes worry about that, the recovery being to fast. I worry, are we missing something, did we miss a necessary phase? Did we miss something that was critical to our recovery?

I will admit though, we have both put in a ton of hours towards this recovery, a lot of work and a lot of talk time. No day goes by without being together for hours and talking this out. We also text and email throughout the day. I guess in the end there is no template for this, no set plan, it's just day by day and hour by hour while not ignoring it and facing every aspect of this A. Asking questions, facing answers and dealing with them head on.


----------



## Beowulf

betrayed1 said:


> I sometimes worry about that, the recovery being to fast. I worry, are we missing something, did we miss a necessary phase? Did we miss something that was critical to our recovery?
> 
> I will admit though, we have both put in a ton of hours towards this recovery, a lot of work and a lot of talk time. No day goes by without being together for hours and talking this out. We also text and email throughout the day. I guess in the end there is no template for this, no set plan, it's just day by day and hour by hour while not ignoring it and facing every aspect of this A. Asking questions, facing answers and dealing with them head on.


Re-read what you just wrote. You are both doing a lot to work through this. Additionally you both come on TAM and share your feelings here as well. All of those things are extremely therapeutic and help you both process your emotions. And you listen to others share what worked for them and the mistakes they've made. All those things together combine to allow you to work through this faster than you otherwise could. Just look at what's happening now. Everyone said you would soon be going through the anger phase. Guess what happened. And because you and EI were told ahead of time it was coming you both subconsciously prepared for it. That's why I firmly believe this R is going to be strong and durable. Because you are both doing it the right way.


----------



## Complexity

betrayed1 said:


> I sometimes worry about that, the recovery being to fast. I worry, are we missing something, did we miss a necessary phase? Did we miss something that was critical to our recovery?
> 
> I will admit though, we have both put in a ton of hours towards this recovery, a lot of work and a lot of talk time. No day goes by without being together for hours and talking this out. We also text and email throughout the day. I guess in the end there is no template for this, no set plan, it's just day by day and hour by hour while not ignoring it and facing every aspect of this A. Asking questions, facing answers and dealing with them head on.


I don't think you can put a definitive timeline as to when you should "appropriately" reconcile. The state of your marriage, prior to the affair certainly played a crucial role in making your reconciliation as intense as it has been. If it was different, I think the both of you would've found it much harder to do the heavy lifting necessary to reconnect with each other. There's also been a concerted effort by EI to help you through your struggles which has evidently helped. 

The reason I mentioned the anger phase earlier wasn't to necessarily glum your spirits, but to temper your expectations. I'd like to think you went through a protracted hysterical bonding stage and now that you've "reclaimed" your wife, you're gonna have to offset your resentment towards the circumstance that led to this, a very hard thing to do. But as Beowulf mentioned, if you're both transparent and supportive towards each other, the feelings may quickly dissipate.


----------



## morituri

Infidelity, like the tsunami in Japan last year, hits BS differently. Don't try to compare your emotional strength with other BS because all of us have our different personalities which handle things differently - sometimes constructively and other times destructively. Cut yourself some slack at times by acknowledging that the emotional roller coaster is a natural response to the trauma of marital betrayal. And don't fall into the macho trap that a lot of us men do into believing that we don't need therapy. It is a sign of strength when a man acknowledges that he needs help and seeks it out. So go see your doctor if your destructive emotions are becoming too intense to bear so that he/she can prescribe you some medication to help you overcome them. Lastly, your true enemies are anger and bitterness which you need to acknowledge and expose their presence every time you experience the emotional lows and mind movies. These two demons sole purpose is to destroy your life and will use EI's infidelity to accomplish it. Keep fighting them for your well being and happiness as well as of those closest to you.


----------



## Beowulf

Complexity said:


> I don't think you can put a definitive timeline as to when you should "appropriately" reconcile. The state of your marriage, prior to the affair certainly played a crucial role in making your reconciliation as intense as it has been. If it was different, I think the both of you would've found it much harder to do the heavy lifting necessary to reconnect with each other. There's also been a concerted effort by EI to help you through your struggles which has evidently helped.
> 
> The reason I mentioned the anger phase earlier wasn't to necessarily glum your spirits, but to temper your expectations. I'd like to think you went through a protracted hysterical bonding stage and now that you've "reclaimed" your wife, you're gonna have to offset your resentment towards the circumstance that led to this, a very hard thing to do. But as Beowulf mentioned, if you're both transparent and supportive towards each other, the feelings may quickly dissipate.


Complexity makes a great point too about the state of the marriage prior to the affair. I think many of the problems could be traced to a serious medical issue, B1's low testosterone. Had that medical issue not appeared and if the subsequent bad choices been handled differently I think their marriage would be extremely stable. Morrigan is better than I am at "reading people" (and she said she KNOWS this marriage is not ending) but I really get the sense that if you removed the last few years of medical issues and of course the affair, B1 and EI are a very happy stable couple. Maybe I'm just seeing what I want to see.


----------



## CantSitStill

This has been an interesting read, good therapy today for me also as hubby and I are 5mo in R it's nice to see there are others reconciling also, it sure is a rollercoaster, great days, bad bad days,, hang in there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## seasalt

Empty Inside,

You have changed your avatar. When and what will it take for you to change your screen name?


----------



## B1

Beowulf said:


> you aren't tricking your mind. You are putting an end to the ongoing obsession. You already know all the answers. The questions are just your mind not wanting to accept the facts of what happened. The anger is the mind vacillating back and forth between the knowing and the accepting. Does that make sense?


Did that make sense?.....OMG, THIS HELPS A LOT! YES...yes..and yes that's it, that's why I keep asking questions I already know the answers to, I am just having a hard time accepting the reality of this, so I keep asking and get hurt, then I ask more and get hurt more and around and around I go. It's an endless pointless, painful loop. 

I know this may seem so obvious to many of you but it wasn't to me. I didn't know why I was obsessed with asking questions...I guess I still will some, I guess eventually though I will simply accept this A and everything that goes with it and move on with healing. The questions had slowed down, but yesterday they picked up big time. Today I'm not tormented, yet at least.

I like how you handled it Beowulf..maybe I will do something similiar.


----------



## Beowulf

As time goes on you'll have one good day, then one bad day. Then you'll have two good days and one bad one. Soon it will be three good days in a row. Then four, five etc. At some point you will realize you can't remember when the last bad day was. That's when you know its all good.


----------



## CantSitStill

this is very hard stuff, hope you can stay strong and keep looking ahead and not back, it's a new start to a better relationship. If you love eachother and have both been changing for the better, anything is possible, I'll keep u in my prayers
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

CantSitStill said:


> This has been an interesting read, good therapy today for me also as hubby and I are 5mo in R it's nice to see there are others reconciling also, it sure is a rollercoaster, great days, bad bad days,, hang in there.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hey CSS,

I'm so excited that you posted on my thread. I have been following your story with Calvin and I love the playful banter between the two of you. I've been reading up on several board member's threads, especially the ones who have stories that mirror my own in some way or another. We should PM each other. I love how you have special names for the different days of the week. H & I might have to come up with a few of our own.


----------



## EI

morituri said:


> Infidelity, like the tsunami in Japan last year, hits BS differently. Don't try to compare your emotional strength with other BS because all of us have our different personalities which handle things differently - sometimes constructively and other times destructively. Cut yourself some slack at times by acknowledging that the emotional roller coaster is a natural response to the trauma of marital betrayal. And don't fall into the macho trap that a lot of us men do into believing that we don't need therapy. It is a sign of strength when a man acknowledges that he needs help and seeks it out. So go see your doctor if your destructive emotions are becoming too intense to bear so that he/she can prescribe you some medication to help you overcome them. Lastly, your true enemies are anger and bitterness which you need to acknowledge and expose their presence every time you experience the emotional lows and mind movies. These two demons sole purpose is to destroy your life and will use EI's infidelity to accomplish it. Keep fighting them for your well being and happiness as well as of those closest to you.



Mori, you have given both of us, B1 especially, a world of helpful information. If I haven't said "thank you" then I want to do so, now. We appreciate your contributions to this site and to our story, as well


----------



## B1

Beowulf said:


> As time goes on you'll have one good day, then one bad day. Then you'll have two good days and one bad one. Soon it will be three good days in a row. Then four, five etc. At some point you will realize you can't remember when the last bad day was. That's when you know its all good.


Yup, yesterday = 1 bad day
Today = 1 good day, I mean a really good day.

I have controlled the mind movies very well today, which doesn't feed the hurt and anger. I know I still have to deal with anger but I will try not to feed it with the movies and then ask the same ol' harmful questions over and over, until I blow or cry. 

My wife had a IC session today and I have one Friday. Then MC next week. Then after that it's IC one week and MC the following week for a while. 

We have had a really great day today, we are both very grateful and thankful for days like today, its been peaceful and we have really loved on each other a lot today. We both know tomorrow very well may be another bad one...but that's tomorrow, let's not worry about that right now.

I sure do love her, even through all this heartache I love that little spitfire of a woman.


----------



## EI

seasalt said:


> Empty Inside,
> 
> You have changed your avatar. When and what will it take for you to change your screen name?


I didn't know that you could change your screen name. Perhaps, H can tweak my avatar a bit to better reflect the way I am feeling these days. *"Huuuuuuubby, can you update my avatar, please? "

*


*Done*


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## CantSitStill

Hey Empty  gald you have been on my thread, just discovered yours today but am glad I did, could use a friend going thru the same rollercoaster..umm today has been really really really bad but I'm never giving up, never ever ever..anyway gonna keep up with you guys now and glad I found ya..lol yeah I get silly and have fun with days of the week. Come visit us and give us a post anytime, we can all get through this together 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

CantSitStill said:


> Hey Empty  gald you have been on my thread, just discovered yours today but am glad I did, could use a friend going thru the same rollercoaster..umm today has been really really really bad but I'm never giving up, never ever ever..anyway gonna keep up with you guys now and glad I found ya..lol yeah I get silly and have fun with days of the week. Come visit us and give us a post anytime, we can all get through this together
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I'm so sorry.... I saw that you were having a bad day after I responded to your comment, here, earlier. I can tell that a bad day for Calvin means a bad day for you, too. I feel the same way. It's impossible to be happy when the person you love is hurting so much, especially when you know that you are the reason. We have some days that are perfectly wonderful and then, without warning, the anger, the hurt, the questions, start like an avalanche. We have to comfort them when they hurt and deal with our guilt at the same time. It's exhausting, but I still feel like we are making progress. I hope that tomorrow is a better day for you and Calvin. We had a pretty good day, today. Yesterday was hard for H.... lots of questions, asking "Why?" and "How could you?" I've answered them all over and over. I asked our therapist today in IC how I should respond to him when he's like that. He said that I should comfort him, tell him how truly sorry that I am, remind him that I love him, and just listen to him. He already knows the answers to the questions that he asks. He's asked the same question a 100 times in a 100 different ways. And, it hurts me just as much when I answer it the 100th time as it did the first time. I'm learning not to get defensive because I know that he is just trying to come to terms with the reality of it. I used to think that every time he got upset that all of the progress that we had made up to that point was gone.... that we had to start over. That isn't the case. I know, now, that we can be having WMS in the morning before he leaves for work, have an argument while he is driving in and be made up a few minutes after he gets to his desk and types out the first of one of our many emails throughout the day. Sometimes, I call him when he is driving in because I know that he hates to be alone in the car.... or I just send him a text to look at when he gets to work. We just have to keep hanging in there.... 

I hope you guys have a great day tomorrow! (((Hugs)))


----------



## EI

I want to know why the dog (the four legged one) always chews up my expensive VS panties! WHY oh WHY doesn't he chew up H's underwear??? Well, I guess another trip to Victoria's Secret is in order.... darn it! I hate it when that happens!  LOL


----------



## Badblood

Beowulf said:


> When you use the methods that Mori and others have suggested for dealing with the mind movies you aren't tricking your mind. You are putting an end to the ongoing obsession. You already know all the answers. The questions are just your mind not wanting to accept the facts of what happened. The anger is the mind vacillating back and forth between the knowing and the accepting. Does that make sense?
> 
> I'll tell you what helped me to make sense of what Morrigan did during her affair (and shortly after). I chose to see her as playing a part, acting in a movie. It was not her, it was her role at that time. Yes she chose that role and she played that role but in the end it wasn't her, it was a character. The real Morrigan is the one I've been married to the last 20 years. The one that has shared my life with me, the one that has bled for me and has bound my wounds when I bled for her. It was like she was taken from me for a time but then returned a stronger, wiser, more compassionate loving woman. That is how I chose to see things.
> 
> Your real wife is the one that now holds you when you are crying. The one that submits to your angry outbursts because she knows it helps you heal. The one that loves you and cares for you. That's the real woman and the one that will be with you forever.


Beowulf, I like you a lot, but disagree with you about this. Delusion of any kind is determental to R, IMO. The only way to get rid of "mind movies", are to create new and more exciting ones, not role-playing, denial, or self-delusion. The woman you married is also the woman who cheated and you have to come to terms with that fact to successfully R


----------



## carpenoctem

Empty Inside said:


> I want to know why the dog (the four legged one) always chews up my expensive VS panties! WHY oh WHY doesn't he chew up H's underwear??? Well, I guess another trip to Victoria's Secret is in order.... darn it! I hate it when that happens!  LOL



he is probably emulating his master.

thank god that is all he tries to imitate.


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## CantSitStill

Good morning, yes this sure is a rollercoaster, oh and you said something that I've thought every time he triggers out real bad or thinks he might not want to be with me I think the same thing..that we are back to day 1. Crazy because we actually grow closer afterward.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

If I successfully deal with the mind movies and stop with obsessive questions..then how do I deal with this A? It sounds crazy but these events are the driving force, it seems, to acceptance?

Like yesterday, I controlled the movies almost to perfection, I also wasn't obessed with asking questions and we had a great day, but in doing this, I feel I am, in some way, rug sweeping..not dealing with what happened.

We still talked a lot yesterday, so we did face it, but I didn't face the ugly stuff, if you know what I mean.

Am I making any sense here, I hope someone can see what I am trying to say and comment on it.


----------



## CantSitStill

Hmm, good question but is it really necessary to dwell on it daily? Rugwseeping to me means doing nothing about it, just continuing on with no changes in the marriage, no boundaries. IMO anyway
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Almostrecovered

betrayed1 said:


> If I successfully deal with the mind movies and stop with obsessive questions..then how do I deal with this A? It sounds crazy but these events are the driving force, it seems, to acceptance?
> 
> Like yesterday, I controlled the movies almost to perfection, I also wasn't obessed with asking questions and we had a great day, but in doing this, I feel I am, in some way, rug sweeping..not dealing with what happened.
> 
> We still talked a lot yesterday, so we did face it, but I didn't face the ugly stuff, if you know what I mean.
> 
> Am I making any sense here, I hope someone can see what I am trying to say and comment on it.


well you're working towards a sense of normalcy, rug sweeping is ignoring it altogether and not dealing with the issue or emotions or problems head on.

And you are facing these problems head on. By controlling the mind movies you are facing a problem and constructively solving it. The intensity gradually wanes and not every day is a huge wave of emotions, some days will be good some will be bad (and those days you lean on your fWW because she isn't rugsweeping either) but eventually you will reach a place where it doesn't sting like it used to, and the reason it will is because you are not rugsweeping.

Rugsweeping is akin to pretending it never happened and hoping it all goes away. You are far from doing that.


----------



## Almostrecovered

To add 

People who rugsweep don't start feeling better (well for the BS), bad feelings when ignored will fester and get worse


----------



## EI

I'm feeling a bad evening coming on......


----------



## Badblood

betrayed1 said:


> If I successfully deal with the mind movies and stop with obsessive questions..then how do I deal with this A? It sounds crazy but these events are the driving force, it seems, to acceptance?
> 
> Like yesterday, I controlled the movies almost to perfection, I also wasn't obessed with asking questions and we had a great day, but in doing this, I feel I am, in some way, rug sweeping..not dealing with what happened.
> 
> We still talked a lot yesterday, so we did face it, but I didn't face the ugly stuff, if you know what I mean.
> 
> Am I making any sense here, I hope someone can see what I am trying to say and comment on it.


B1, sometimes bitter medicine is the most effective, which is why I don't pull any punches with WS'S, but give it to them harsh and direct. Nothing dissipates the fog quicker than a dose of reality.


----------



## Badblood

Empty Inside said:


> I'm feeling a bad evening coming on......


You're an adult, right? Suck it up and deal with it, as an adult.


----------



## Almostrecovered

Really? Suck it up is your advice?


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## CantSitStill

wow that was mean..if someone woulda said that to me yesterday..it woulda really put me over the edge, this is their thread
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Badblood

Almostrecovered said:


> Really? Suck it up is your advice?


Yep, that's it. EI and B1 know what to do, they have been doing it for some months now, and both of them have a pretty good grasp of their responsibilities. Sympathy should be reserved for those in peril. EI and B1 aren't at that stage, they are past it. I am confident that EI knows how to deal with temporary, "bad patches", stroking her ego won't help anything.


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## MattMatt

Empty Inside said:


> I'm feeling a bad evening coming on......


Oh, dear! I do hope not. I hope you both have as good an evening as you can.


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## MattMatt

Badblood said:


> Yep, that's it. EI and B1 know what to do, they have been doing it for some months now, and both of them have a pretty good grasp of their responsibilities. Sympathy should be reserved for those in peril. EI and B1 aren't at that stage, they are past it. I am confident that EI knows how to deal with temporary, "bad patches", stroking her ego won't help anything.


Ego stroking? Wow. Projecting, much, dude?


----------



## Badblood

CantSitStill said:


> wow that was mean..if someone woulda said that to me yesterday..it woulda really put me over the edge, this is their thread
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


CSS, there comes a time when talk is cheap and an adult needs to Cowboy-up and get it done. B1 and EI have been given hundreds of bits of advice, and lots of sympathy. They are two thinking adults, it's time to put away childish selfishness, and see to each other's needs.


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## CantSitStill

yes there is a time to cowboy it up I agree, just felt you were being smart-a about it, sorry please carry on, don't want to start any trouble.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Badblood

MattMatt said:


> Ego stroking? Wow. Projecting, much, dude?


Matt, there is nothing wrong with the intellect of either EI or B1. They can handle it, really, they can. They have been given a sh*tbag of sympathy and advice. Time to grow up a little. BTW you should read my threads sometime, I went through most of the same issues , plu my ex-wife was nuts in the bargain. So your comments to me are meaningless.


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## Badblood

CantSitStill said:


> yes there is a time to cowboy it up I agree, just felt you were being smart-a about it, sorry please carry on, don't want to start any trouble.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


CSS, look into some of my threads, sometime. I went through the same crap as they are going through. I'm only a smart-a** when I'm talking about something trivial. B1 and EI's Recovery is serious business.


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## MattMatt

Badblood said:


> Matt, there is nothing wrong with the intellect of either EI or B1. They can handle it, really, they can. They have been given a sh*tbag of sympathy and advice. Time to grow up a little. BTW you should read my threads sometime, I went through most of the same issues , plu my ex-wife was nuts in the bargain. So your comments to me are meaningless.


Nope. They were full of meaning. You have just confirmed what I said. I believe you are projecting some of the undoubted distress and heartache that you wife dumped on you on to EI.

That's understandable. But it is hardly fairly.


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## Badblood

Empty, if you need help, please try the "Marriage Builders", website. Dr Harley has dealt with hundreds if not thousands of cases of infidelity and the number of marriages he has helped on the road to R is truly amazing. He has a procedure for any "rough patch', you might be going through.


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## Badblood

MattMatt said:


> Nope. They were full of meaning. You have just confirmed what I said. I believe you are projecting some of the undoubted distress and heartache that you wife dumped on you on to EI.
> 
> That's understandable. But it is hardly fairly.


Whatever, Dude. Believe what you want to, it's free.


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## B1

I had called her on the way home asking some more questions. Questions that would only bring on hurt and anger...and we hung up and decided to talk in person about it.

One thing about my wife, if you back her into a corner she will come out fighting, so round 1 didn't go so well, my anger only riled her up. Round two however, was completely different, she listened, took it, grabbed my hand, said she was sorry and that she loved me, which is all I needed. 

You know...This $hit hurts to the core and this hurt is turning into anger now, I'm not even raising my voice, or spewing filthy words, I'm just venting. I don't deserve these filthy images in my head or these disgusting movies, I DON'T! but *I HAVE* to deal with them because she chose to have a PA, and that makes me just a wee bit angry sometimes. 

calming down now....she just came in and changed tops in front of me..think that was planned.


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## Acabado

> she just came in and changed tops in front of me..think that was planned.


 Evil, evil woman!!


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## CantSitStill

I know that Calvin (my husband) is going thru this also..in MC next week the plan is for him to tell me all the hurt I've caused him..this will be hard but I will listen because it is the way to heal, you cannot hold it in because it will only fester inside you and make that anger worse. You are right, you don't deserve this. Calvin reminds me all the time that I am the one that caused this. It's hard but he's right.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acabado

I got this years ago, don't remember the site:

*Mind movies: Changing Your Vision: A Visulization for Overcoming Obsessive Images *
Take some time now to lay back and relax. Take a few deep breaths and feel your body unwind. 
As you do so, consciously, intentionally bring the image that you have been struggling with most to mind. Look at it in as much detail as you can. Hear the sounds and see the images that appear in your image as if they are happening right now in this moment. 
Once you have the image firmly in mind try thinking about this as though it were a videotape or a DVD. Imagine that you can alter the image any way you choose to. 
Keeping in mind that you can alter this scene any way you like, take your image and play it in reverse. Imagine that you hit the rewind button on your VCR or DVD player and you are now watching your image as it hums along in reverse. Once you have done this, press play again and allow the image to play out the way it was before you hit the rewind button. 
Now see if you can alter the physical appearance of the image. 
Try and change the size and shape of the people and objects in the image. Try seeing it as though it were tinted in a different hue. Perhaps you can make the whole image blue or green or pink. Once you have done this try looking at your scene from different perspectives. Try seeing it from high above as though you were looking at it from a bird's eye. Then try and look at it from 
below as though you were a bug watching the scene. 
Finally come up with some ways of your own to manipulate the scene. You may try adding a soundtrack to your videotape if there isn't one playing, or getting rid of the soundtrack if there 
is one playing. You could think about different scents in the room and alter them as well. 
Do anything you can think of with this image. You may even want to make the people in it look like Mickey Mouse or Donald Duck. 
As you do this realize that this image is completely under your control. The image occurs inside your mind and you can alter it any way you choose to. It is in fact your image. You have the 
power to change it if you wish to. 
Once you are satisfied that you can alter the image at your whim, bring yourself back to the present moment and see whether or not you feel a difference in your emotional state. 
Most people find a sense of freedom and relief once they realize they are able to control the images they have been suffering with. Learning that you are in control of your mind can be a powerful experience. 

Dr. Frank Gunzburg Ph.D., P.A

ETA
For me only time helped. Sorry.


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## Acabado

Empty, hang tough, just for tonight. It shall pass.


----------



## B1

CantSitStill said:


> I know that Calvin (my husband) is going thru this also..in MC next week the plan is for him to tell me all the hurt I've caused him..this will be hard but I will listen because it is the way to heal, you cannot hold it in because it will only fester inside you and make that anger worse. You are right, you don't deserve this. Calvin reminds me all the time that I am the one that caused this. It's hard but he's right.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you, the fact that you said the words.."YOu don't deserve this" means so much to me...I don't deserve it, I don't, it's not right or fair I have to deal with this...GOD IT HURTS..I'm can barely type now I'm crying so much...the images and movies that play are traumatic, they are devastating.. and she doesn't understand that, she can't and I wish for a minute she could, just a minute.
I wish every time I asked "how could you" she would just say "I'm so sorry" and not say anything else, no reasoning, no because...no nothing..just I love you and I'm sorry. 

Thank you CantSitStill...I wish you and your husband the very best.


----------



## Complexity

Men are visual creatures, it's hard for most women to comprehend the anguish we experience with the mind movies. They're incredibly descriptive and extremely graphic, there's no way around them. Nonetheless they do fade with time, a lot of BSs who's wives had PAs attest to this. EI, I suggest you be as comforting as you can possibly be during this time.

Hang in there betrayed.


----------



## CantSitStill

betrayed1 said:


> Thank you, the fact that you said the words.."YOu don't deserve this" means so much to me...I don't deserve it, I don't, it's not right or fair I have to deal with this...GOD IT HURTS..I'm can barely type now I'm crying so much...the images and movies that play are traumatic, they are devastating.. and she doesn't understand that, she can't and I wish for a minute she could, just a minute.
> I wish every time I asked "how could you" she would just say "I'm so sorry" and not say anything else, no reasoning, no because...no nothing..just I love you and I'm sorry.
> 
> Thank you CantSitStill...I wish you and your husband the very best.


Hey just so you know I would get defensive too at first, she will really really get it and when she does she may get kinda to where she hates herself. I trigger out on my own and go through crying spurts because of the pain I've caused him..what sucks is there is no good reason..I guess the answer is I lost my mind for a bit? There is no good excuse and it sucks and I just wish I could turn back time and never have contacted my ex bf..uggg it hurts yet I know it hurts Calvin 20 times more
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Badblood

This is a huge part of the dilemma about whether to D or R. If you are a person with any pride and honor at all, your first instinct is to hurt the person that hurt you. What makes it so horrible is that the person who hurt you is the person who you never thought would ever do it, and the one person you would never intentionally harm. For me, that would be the deciding factor about reconciliation, my WS would have to PROVE without doubt, that she completely understood the pain she caused me, and felt WORSE about it than I did. As some of you know, my ex attempted suicide and was near death, so I was sure that she felt my pain, but she was never able to understand it. You have some major problems ahead of you, B1, and I wouldn't want to be in your shoes for anything.


----------



## Complexity

Badblood said:


> This is a huge part of the dilemma about whether to D or R. If you are a person with any pride and honor at all, your first instinct is to hurt the person that hurt you. What makes it so horrible is that the person who hurt you is the person who you never thought would ever do it, and the one person you would never intentionally harm. For me, that would be the deciding factor about reconciliation, my WS would have to PROVE without doubt, that she completely understood the pain she caused me, and felt WORSE about it than I did. As some of you know, my ex attempted suicide and was near death, so I was sure that she felt my pain, but she was never able to understand it. *You have some major problems* ahead of you, B1, and I wouldn't want to be in your shoes for anything.


He's not the only one......

Please don't conflate sadism with honour and pride.


----------



## Beowulf

Badblood said:


> This is a huge part of the dilemma about whether to D or R. If you are a person with any pride and honor at all, your first instinct is to hurt the person that hurt you. What makes it so horrible is that the person who hurt you is the person who you never thought would ever do it, and the one person you would never intentionally harm. For me, that would be the deciding factor about reconciliation, my WS would have to PROVE without doubt, that she completely understood the pain she caused me, and felt WORSE about it than I did. As some of you know, my ex attempted suicide and was near death, so I was sure that she felt my pain, but she was never able to understand it. You have some major problems ahead of you, B1, and I wouldn't want to be in your shoes for anything.


BB, you are exactly right. The hardest part of attempting R is to understand what the other person is going through. Your ex most certainly felt your pain but combined with her own feelings of guilt she was overwhelmed by it all. She never got to the point of acceptance which is key to understanding. Its more than just simple empathy. You have to be willing to open up your soul and allow that pain into yourself in order to experience it and truly understand. Many people can't do it. I'm hopeful EI can. I believe she can and I think she certainly wants to understand. If she can then it will help heal B1 and that will go a long way toward a successful reconciliation.


----------



## Badblood

Complexity said:


> He's not the only one......
> 
> Please don't conflate sadism with honour and pride.


It is human nature to defend yourself, not Sadism.


----------



## Badblood

Beowulf said:


> BB, you are exactly right. The hardest part of attempting R is to understand what the other person is going through. Your ex most certainly felt your pain but combined with her own feelings of guilt she was overwhelmed by it all. She never got to the point of acceptance which is key to understanding. Its more than just simple empathy. You have to be willing to open up your soul and allow that pain into yourself in order to experience it and truly understand. Many people can't do it. I'm hopeful EI can. I believe she can and I think she certainly wants to understand. If she can then it will help heal B1 and that will go a long way toward a successful reconciliation.


I think you're right, Beowulf. Apparently, we both have a lot more faith in EI and B1 than some of the other posters. I feel confident that they are both intelligent, mature people, and can solve the problems that they have with minimal interference, or perhaps just an occasional nudge.


----------



## anonymouskitty

I think honour would demand that a person not stoop so low as the person who hurt him, and what B1 is doing is very honourable, yes I know that most of the BH's who have reconciled will come across as less than men, weaklings who couldn't let go, but let me remind you badblood that you gave your xW a second chance too and though that didn't go well for you, the very fact that you did give her a second chance shows that you are indeed an honourable man.

I know most people on here will not agree with me but it takes more for of a man to face all the hurt and the anger that comes in relentless waves during reconciliation and come out being stronger than it takes for a man to just up and leave. its not really about the pride, its about the ego and our hurt ego makes our thinking skewed


----------



## Complexity

Badblood said:


> It is human nature to defend yourself, not Sadism.


"Defend" from what exactly? 

You're essentially suggesting that short of a cheater taking their own life, they cannot fully comprehend the pain of infidelity.... that's just ridiculous and actually chilling advice. If your wife's mental breakdown/suicide attempt wasn't enough to show remorse then that's your concern and in fact speaks more about your capacity to forgive and reconcile. Don't superimpose that on others, particularly those with shaky marriages.

B1, if you consciously set out to "punish" your wife for her affair then you shouldn't reconcile. Reconciliation doesn't mean to seek gratification from the WS's pain, _that is_ sadism. Her remorse should come naturally, not derived from purposeful churlish behaviour. You had a shaky marriage before this affair, you both need to do the heavy lifting to build something new. Deal with your anger constructively in ways Mori showed, don't put it all on your wife. It solves nothing and only breeds resentment.


----------



## anonymouskitty

Well said mate, the thing is B1 the first few months after the sh!t hit the fan, I was all about "punishing" my wife, and I can tell you that it will only prolong your ordeal and also make the hurt grow more intense in both of you. There are better ways in which you can express your anger and hurt at EI and "punishing" her is not one of them.


----------



## Beowulf

B1 is not punishing his wife. He is genuinely hurt and going through the anger phase. He will continue to ask questions and seek answers even though he already knows the answers. He will have emotional outbursts because he cannot help it. Its not done to hurt EI, its done because he can't help it right now. Eventually he will begin to exert some control over his emotions. He will find an outlet for his anger, a way to channel these feelings that works for him. For me it was weightlifting. He will find out what works for him. EI will be patient and understanding because she loves him and realizes that this is how he will heal. She knows the hurt she has inflicted and she has and will continue to do what she needs to to repair the damage. Most of all she knows that this is normal and temporary and worth it. Both B1 and EI know what is at stake. They will make it work because they want to make it work.


----------



## Badblood

Complexity said:


> "Defend" from what exactly?
> 
> You're essentially suggesting that short of a cheater taking their own life, they cannot fully comprehend the pain of infidelity.... that's just ridiculous and actually chilling advice. If your wife's mental breakdown/suicide attempt wasn't enough to show remorse then that's your concern and in fact speaks more about your capacity to forgive and reconcile. Don't superimpose that on others, particularly those with shaky marriages.
> 
> B1, if you consciously set out to "punish" your wife for her affair then you shouldn't reconcile. Reconciliation doesn't mean to seek gratification from the WS's pain, _that is_ sadism. Her remorse should come naturally, not derived from purposeful churlish behaviour. You had a shaky marriage before this affair, you both need to do the heavy lifting to build something new. Deal with your anger constructively in ways Mori showed, don't put it all on your wife. It solves nothing and only breeds resentment.


Defense from being hurt. Complexity, you know nothing about my situation, so until you read my threads, keep your nasty comments to yourself and never presume to tell me what I mean or don't mean.


----------



## Badblood

anonymouskitty said:


> I think honour would demand that a person not stoop so low as the person who hurt him, and what B1 is doing is very honourable, yes I know that most of the BH's who have reconciled will come across as less than men, weaklings who couldn't let go, but let me remind you badblood that you gave your xW a second chance too and though that didn't go well for you, the very fact that you did give her a second chance shows that you are indeed an honourable man.
> 
> I know most people on here will not agree with me but it takes more for of a man to face all the hurt and the anger that comes in relentless waves during reconciliation and come out being stronger than it takes for a man to just up and leave. its not really about the pride, its about the ego and our hurt ego makes our thinking skewed


Yes, Kitty, I did give her a second chance, I have regretted it ever since. Until she was alone with her demons, she would never fought them, but would always have leaned on her crutch, me. My FSIL has told me that she is making wonderful progress, and I wish her all of the best , in the future.


----------



## B1

Beowulf said:


> B1 is not punishing his wife. He is genuinely hurt and going through the anger phase. He will continue to ask questions and seek answers even though he already knows the answers. He will have emotional outbursts because he cannot help it. Its not done to hurt EI, its done because he can't help it right now. Eventually he will begin to exert some control over his emotions. He will find an outlet for his anger, a way to channel these feelings that works for him. For me it was weightlifting. He will find out what works for him. EI will be patient and understanding because she loves him and realizes that this is how he will heal. She knows the hurt she has inflicted and she has and will continue to do what she needs to to repair the damage. Most of all she knows that this is normal and temporary and worth it. Both B1 and EI know what is at stake. They will make it work because they want to make it work.


Beowulf is correct and really understands where I am right now, I am not seeking to punish her, that has never even crossed my mind. All I am seeking, after really thinking about this, is compassion, understanding, empathy... For her to not get defensive, to not feel like she has to defend herself. Yesterday was a break through for this in the car, she did what I needed and it immediately calmed me, I felt loved, I felt she really cared and was sorry. I'm not asking for much here, I'm really not.

I do want to vent and say my piece without dealing with the why it happened, or because of this or that....I guess instead of asking all the questions I could just jump to what I really want to say....
This freaking hurts and your the reason it hurts...your the reason I am in *so much pain*..your the reason I am crying, I am angry, I am dealing with these disgusting and filthy images..you did this.
Then....what do i want in return? not much..maybe some understanding, an "I'm sorry I caused this", "I'm sorry your hurting", "You don't deserve this" something like that, anything like that. Or just simply hold my hand and say I love you. It's just not that complicated.

cantsitstill hit me at my heart with "your right you don't deserve this" I can't tell you how that touched me. We BS's need to hear that, maybe over and over again.


----------



## B1

Complexity said:


> B1, if you consciously set out to "punish" your wife for her affair then you shouldn't reconcile. Reconciliation doesn't mean to seek gratification from the WS's pain, _that is_ sadism. Her remorse should come naturally, not derived from purposeful churlish behaviour. You had a shaky marriage before this affair, you both need to do the heavy lifting to build something new. Deal with your anger constructively in ways Mori showed, don't put it all on your wife. It solves nothing and only breeds resentment.


Not setting out to punish at all, never crossed my mind. I'm starting to think though It should cross my mind becuase so many have mentioned it? but punishing her, no, just not there and never has been. Our marriage, as you stated was in the toilet long before this A. I had and have no problem with taking that part of that blame on, I am, and have been doing some heavy lifting. I just want the same in return and for the most part she is doing the lifting also.

I also agree her remorse has to come from her, it cannot be forced, it cannot come because some poster on here demands it, it has to come from her heart. We are still only 8 weeks out from Dday#2, it's still new, we can't forget that, or I can't anyway. I still have to consider she is still fighting her demons also and they may interfer from time to time. She will get there, she is getting there..and I will be there when she does. You have to remember I realy hurt her to for many years, these are the demons she is fighting, well and the EA part of it too I guess..

I am not giving up, I'm not here in this R becuase I am weak and pathetic and it's just the right thing to do or the only thing to do. 
I am here becuase I truly love this woman, I love my family, I will honor my vows and I'm not a man who gives up easily. She mad a mistake and awful mistake, she isn't an awful person, she is a very good hearted, loving caring woman who broke and I am her husband who will help fix that and she will help fix me and together we will repair each other and be better for it.

I sure hope this made some sense I am not as eloquent of a poster as most but I think you all can understand what I am trying to say.


----------



## Complexity

betrayed1 said:


> Not setting out to punish at all, never crossed my mind. I'm starting to think though It should cross my mind becuase so many have mentioned it? but punishing her, no, just not there and never has been. Our marriage, as you stated was in the toilet long before this A. I had and have no problem with taking that part of that blame on, I am, and have been doing some heavy lifting. I just want the same in return and for the most part she is doing the lifting also.
> 
> I also agree her remorse has to come from her, it cannot be forced, it cannot come because some poster on here demands it, it has to come from her heart. We are still only 8 weeks out from Dday#2, it's still new, we can't forget that, or I can't anyway. I still have to consider she is still fighting her demons also and they may interfer from time to time. She will get there, she is getting there..and I will be there when she does. You have to remember I realy hurt her to for many years, these are the demons she is fighting.
> 
> I am not giving up, I'm not here in this R becuase I am weak and pathetic and it's just the right thing to do or the only thing to do.
> I am here becuase I truly love this woman, I love my family, I will honor my vows and I'm not a man who gives up easily. She mad a mistake and awful mistake, she isn't an awful person, she is a very good hearted, loving caring woman who broke and I am her husband who will help fix that and she will help fix me and together we will repair each other and be better for it.
> 
> I sure hope this made some sense I am not as eloquent of a poster as most but I think you all can understand what I am trying to say.


I understand you completely B1, you have my utmost respect for enduring all the pain you're going through in reconciling with the woman you love. You're certainly not weak, you're hurting and understandably so. I mentioned in my previous post that this is the hardest stage of your R. Once you get past it, it's plain sailing from there. Conversely this is uncharted territory for the both of you. Your wife needs to learn ways to deal with your triggers. Being defensive in their duration is worst thing she can do.

I also noticed those qualities you mentioned about your wife. That's why despite being usually on the pro divorce side, I wanted you to reconcile with your her and she's lucky to have you.


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## Sara8

Beowulf said:


> He will have emotional outbursts because he cannot help it. Its not done to hurt EI, its done because he can't help it right now.


Beowulf:

Is right, IMO, from a BS's perspective. 

A lot of disloyal spouses become defensive when their betrayed spouse triggers, including my STBEH and that start accusing the BS of punishing them. 

In reality they are just well......triggering from pain and shock and disbelief.


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## calvin

No B1,we did'nt deserve this at all
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Beowulf

Allow me to address the deserve aspect. A lot of things happen in life that we don't deserve. You get into a car accident because of someone else's negligence. You take care of yourself, eat right, exercise and then get sick anyway. A loved one is taken from you long before their time. The difference between those deserves and this one is because this deserve was committed by the one person in life that you most trusted. The one person that you most loved. And it was not an accident. It was done with eyes wide open and no thought given to how it would affect you. That's the part that hurts. That's the part that is so difficult to understand...and to get over.

The fact is that we are all human, we all do make mistakes and we all do things we later regret. In the case of infidelity it was not a mistake. It was a choice. But what you also have to try to understand is that the one that made that choice is also having trouble believing they did what they did. They also can't understand how they could have done those things. They also cannot accept it was them. In this one very significant way both the betrayed and the betrayer share a common pain. And if you both tackle it together it can in the long run bring you closer.

CSS and B1 are right. There is no explanation that will satisfy. There is no answer. There certainly is no excuse. Trying to defend yourself is simply not going to work or help. When you defend yourself you are simply reacting from a place of selfishness once again. All former wayward spouses start out trying to defend themselves. The ones that "get it" stop doing it quickly because they see how wrong it is. 

The answer as to why you did it. The answer as to why it was done to you. The answer is very simple and yet very complex. The answer is that for a period of time they were selfish, they thought only about themselves, they were all about them. And they got addicted to it. No worries about the home, or the children, or the job....or the husband or wife. It was all about them. For a short period of time they could literally remove everything else in the world and concentrate totally on themselves. Let that sink in a minute. Doesn't that sound like a little slice of heaven?

But the reality is that we can't just do that can we? When we do look at the fallout. Look at the mess we've made and the people we've hurt. Was it worth it? Was being selfish and thinking only of yourself for even just a little while worth the aftermath? Did it really make you happy? The answer is hell no! And that is why the person who was betrayed need not worry it will happen again. If the wayward spouse really sees the damage they caused, feels the pain that they inflicted and works to understand how their actions have affected others they would never go down that road again.

I know Morrigan gets it. I know CSS gets it. I know Sigma gets it. Morrigan says that EI gets it and she has never been wrong yet. She saw through Allybabe's false remorse when even I was fooled. I myself believe that EI gets it. But what we all believe or know is not important. Does EI get it? Does she want to get it? Does B1 believe she gets it? Those are the most important questions. From what I've seen from both of their posts I think she has worked and is still working very hard to get it. I think B1 believes she gets it or he wouldn't be in reconciliation right now. The questions have all been answered. The work is underway. The path is well worn by those that have successfully gone before. The reward is ready and waiting to be claimed. The only question left to be answered...are you both determined enough to claim the prize?


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## calvin

I understand Sh!t happens but yes this was a choice and when they saw the hurt they carried on. Thats what makes it hurt so much,it was intentional.
Yes,if they see the damge they have done and are truely remorseful and regretful you can have a successful R.
Its hart to put your trust back onto the one that hurt you.
No we didnt deserve this,do they deserve a second chance? In my case yes,I love her and dont believe it will never happen again but it is only one chance only.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## warlock07

anonymouskitty said:


> I think honour would demand that a person not stoop so low as the person who hurt him, and what B1 is doing is very honourable, yes I know that most of the BH's who have reconciled will come across as less than men, weaklings who couldn't let go, but let me remind you badblood that you gave your xW a second chance too and though that didn't go well for you, the very fact that you did give her a second chance shows that you are indeed an honourable man.
> 
> I know most people on here will not agree with me but it takes more for of a man to face all the hurt and the anger that comes in relentless waves during reconciliation and come out being stronger than it takes for a man to just up and leave. its not really about the pride, its about the ego and our hurt ego makes our thinking skewed



So the worse the betrayal, the stronger he is ? You are judging from the same eyes you ask us not to. R or D depends on what the individual can take.


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## anonymouskitty

I'm not compelling anybody into R, all I'm saying is if you want to make an exit you can do it without having a revenge affair and I'm also saying that we need to respect B!'s and SomedayDig's intentions to R rather than wondering out loud how they're going to do it or whether EI and Regret are worth it.

We can't decide who's worthy of R and D, and we certainly can't question a man's right to reconcile with his wife, which is exactly what some of us are doing - in not so subtle ways, not needed at all in my opinion, not on this thread at least.


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## EI

I appreciate the comments, support, encouragement and advice of everyone who has taken the time to read our story. I don't want to mention specific names, right now, because I might leave someone out. But, thank you all so much for your concern. I am reading everything and I am spending some time reading the stories of others so that I can glean any information that might be helpful to our recovery. And, I kind of feel like we are all, now, a part of the TAM family... as corny as that sounds.... so I want to know how others are doing, as well. H & I have peaks and valleys every day. Our best day and our worst day since this all began might very likely have occurred in the same day.... that is just the reality of recovering from something so traumatic. I'm a little bit on the OCD side, so if I can't do something "just right," right now, then I'll wait until I have the time and energy to do so. So, I'll respond to your comments later, but I am just feeling tired, exhausted and overwhelmed from all of the ups and downs this week. As an aside, H's grandmother is in the hospital, under the care of Hospice, and could pass at any time, so that is emotionally draining for us, as well. We have been going back and forth to the hospital all week when H gets home from work.

H has an IC session this afternoon and we have agreed that for this evening we will try to just enjoy ourselves and table any serious discussion until tomorrow. Of course, with him going to counseling today, that may not be possible. If not, then we will deal with it today. 

Much is made of the fact that I am a "very defensive" person. I won't deny it. Honestly, I am a caregiver. I have spent much of my life caring for others and putting my own needs aside. I'm not asking for sympathy, at all.... I promise. One of things I learned in therapy was that I would have to learn to "take care of myself" or that I would have nothing left to care for anyone else. Well, looks like I took it to an extreme, right? Yes, I know....... I WENT ABOUT IT THE WRONG WAY. What I could not see clearly last year, I see very well, now. It's so obvious, to me, that what I did was horribly wrong..... my words, no one else's. I know it was HORRIBLE. I don't have the words to justify what is unjustifiable... they don't exist. So, I am learning in IC things like "how," "why," "what else," "could," "should," and "would," etc....... I want to understand myself better and I want for H & I to have a marriage that is far better than the one that I abandoned last year and far better than it was even when it was at it's best. Because H has already learned so much and he has completely owned up to his part of the responsibility in the breakdown of our marriage. It was as if, in an instant, he understood all of my previous hurt, pain, isolation and rejection. And, when I realized that he truly got it, then, in an instant, years worth of bitterness, on my part, melted away. It's why I went from being so angry and defensive in my initial posts to falling in love with him all over again in a matter of a few days. Now, it is my hope that I can learn to respond, appropriately, to his hurt, anger, fear, and devastation so that he can fully heal and that we can have this amazing marriage that I truly believe is there for us. It's just that his anger scares me. I'm afraid that we are starting all over again from square one, or that he might not be able to handle this or that he might shut down again, I'm afraid of everything. I do know that I really, really, really love my husband..... 

I hope you guys all have a wonderful evening and I'll be back later. Does anyone else think that TAM is a bit addictive???


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## anonymouskitty

Empty Inside said:


> I hope you guys all have a wonderful evening and I'll be back later. Does anyone else think that TAM is a bit addictive???


I get my dopamine fix from here


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## EI

anonymouskitty said:


> I get my dopamine fix from here




Awww..... maybe that's why I spend so much time here!


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## Badblood

EI, I have a lot of confidence in you and B1 and feel that if anyone can reconcile, it is you two. As long as you practice complete honesty in your communication, never "rug sweep', or "trickle truth" and think of each other's feelings first, I really don't see anything stopping you from having a happy future marriage. Reconciliation is an on-going process, not an end.


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## B1

I had a fantastic counseling session today. It was one of the best I ever had. I really learned some things about me and our marriage, Where I am, why I am doing what I am doing etc. It was a valuable session that really helped me understand myself and my wife better.

One BIG thing I learned is that I need to stop the damaging hurtful questions, they are only going to push her away or make her withdraw. I know when I am doing it they are more statements then anything, they are hurtful and have no real reason to be asked other then to poke at her or hurt her feelings. I wasn't at the time thinking about her feelings, only mine, and they were hurt, I guess in a away I wanted her to hurt too. But fact is, she is hurting, and she is also much more fragile then I realized too. 

He says it's a miracle we have come this far and are on the road to R. He counseled her too and has for many years. He knew our marriage was dead even before the A but after the A he didn't think we would make it. He gave me a lot of credit.

He's more then happy with our progress!

Anyway..a great IC session and an almost very nice day. My grandmother did pass away today so that was tough. But I'm ok, she's not in pain anymore and is in a better place.


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## Acabado

I'm sorry for your loss.


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## carpenoctem

anonymouskitty said:


> I get my dopamine fix from here



*As long as we don't discover an OS (Other Site) later.*


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## MattMatt

Oh. I just thought of something. 

My wife cheated on me. After a while, I had a revenge affair. Which hurt me worse than my wife's affair.

I wonder if EI had a sort of revenge affair because of how badly she felt B1 hurt her for years?

I think recovery here is possible because B1s behaviour was as a result of a physical health issue (low T levels) and EI's affair was as as result of her sort of going a little bit mad because she thought B1 hated her and her heart was crushed?


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## EI

MattMatt said:


> Oh. I just thought of something.
> 
> My wife cheated on me. After a while, I had a revenge affair. Which hurt me worse than my wife's affair.
> 
> I wonder if EI had a sort of revenge affair because of how badly she felt B1 hurt her for years?
> 
> I think recovery here is possible because B1s behaviour was as a result of a physical health issue (low T levels) and EI's affair was as as result of her sort of going a little bit mad because she thought B1 hated her and her heart was crushed?



MM, it's a little more complicated than that. B1's LD was definitely due to his low T levels. His lack of knowledge of his health issues (Low T, depression, etc.) lead to frustration on his part when dealing with my needs, emotionally and physically. While his LD was not his fault, his lack of compassion, empathy and understanding of my hurt, pain and feelings of rejection can't be explained away due to his low T. Rather than sticking with counseling early on, like I did, and talking to a doctor about his LD (which should have been done years ago) he chose to be emotionally distant towards me. I kept trying to figure out what was wrong with me. I kept thinking that if I weighed the right amount, dressed the right way, approached him at the right time, said the right words, communicated my needs in the right way..... if only I could figure out what I was doing wrong then I just knew that everything would be okay. The more I tried to connect with him and work on our issues, the more he pulled away from me. The worst part was after I did a lot of work on myself, losing weight, getting therapy, dealing with my own depression.... then, I thought that things would improve. I hoped that if I presented a better "me" then, maybe, things would get better for us. They only got worse and then he began to to belittle and humiliate me when I expressed my needs and desires. All of this has been stated in my earlier posts on my own thread. I don't want to rehash it because it was a very painful time. Suffice it to say, I reached a point last year where I could no longer bear the loneliness, isolation and rejection. I truly felt "Empty Inside." Our finances were a disaster (they are slowly improving) and I didn't see a way out. I had an affair. Fast forward to today. Did I do the right thing under the circumstances? NO! It hurt the people that I love most in this world. But, I broke.... I don't know what else to say. I can't change the past any more than H can. 

Interestingly enough, H started T injections last fall. For the life of me I could not figure out why he was doing it then. At that point I was completely checked out of our marriage. T affects so much more than just LD. It is a huge factor in how a man sees himself, feels and operates. So, here we are today.... far from where we were 8 weeks ago. I NEVER could have anticipated this, but I am grateful that we are working through all of this and building a marriage that is so much more than I ever thought possible. We are where we are now because we, both, want to do this. Our therapist thinks we are a miracle and I kind of do, too. As I said, a few posts back, when I truly understood what had happened to us and why, and I realized the depth of love that H has for me, (I don't believe that even he understood before) years of resentment completely disappeared in an instant. Now, I have to help him heal and come to terms with what I have done. He is working very hard to do just that and I am so very, very blessed and grateful. I hope that, soon, we can, both, fully heal and move forward. I remember when he and I got married, we were 19 & 20. I'm the oldest, by 4 months. I was so in love and I just knew that I had married the best guy in the whole world. We had no idea, at the time, just how much life was going to throw at us. But, now, the idea of the "best guy in the whole world" has a whole new meaning. He really is my Prince Charming, my Knight in Shining Armour..... my dream come true! One more thing.....I remember when I used to wish that he would feel desire towards me. Well, it's true when they say to be careful what you wish for. I have always been the HD to his LD. Boy what a difference T makes! Now, I just have to figure out how to get him to stop groping me at inappropriate times and places! LOL  <3


----------



## carpenoctem

Empty Inside said:


> But, now, the idea of the "best guy in the whole world" has a whole new meaning. He really is my Prince Charming, my Knight in Shining Armour..... my dream come true! One more thing.....I remember when I used to wish that he would feel desire towards me. Well, it's true when they say to be careful what you wish for. I have always been the HD to his LD. Boy what a difference T makes! Now, I just have to figure out how to get him to stop groping me at inappropriate times and places! LOL  <3



*From 'Empty Inside' to 'B1 Inside'?

Viva La Testosterone!*


(If that sounded crass, apologies).


----------



## happyman64

"Boy what a difference T makes! Now, I just have to figure out how to get him to stop groping me at inappropriate times and places! LOL "

You know you love it........

And hey, he has years to make up for. You both do in fact. Have fun you two......
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

carpenoctem said:


> *From 'Empty Inside' to 'B1 Inside'?
> 
> Viva La Testosterone!*
> 
> 
> (If that sounded crass, apologies).



🤣


----------



## Acabado

> I just have to figure out how to get him to stop groping me at inappropriate times and places! LOL


Evil, evil man!


----------



## carpenoctem

Empty Inside said:


> But, now, the idea of the "best guy in the whole world" has a whole new meaning. *He really is my Prince Charming, my Knight in Shining Armour..... my dream come true! *



If I want to hear those words, I have to *pay* someone, B1.


----------



## B1

I had forgotten that my wife was hurting too. She is still hurting over my many years of neglect and rejection...She has been being there for me and yet afraid to say "Hey I'm hurting still too". 

She triggered yesterday over something I said and she got a little mad and we argued briefly. Her anger quickly turned into tears and she cried a lot and I held her. All this has drummed hurt from years ago..hurt from me her mother and her always being the one caring for others...she has been afraid to say anything really to me or to this board. She has been afraid to say "I am hurt too" like she doesn't have a right to be hurt. 

I realize the WS is the bad guy here, but the WS, in this case, was hurt horribly by me for years, my years of rejection did a number on her, and she needed a shoulder yesterday and I was glad to provide one. 

I guess what I am getting at is not going to be taken well here. But the WS probably had\has issues before the A started, they were probably in some type of pain also. And once the A is in the open all the attention and help goes to the BS, the WS is left to lick there own wounds. 

Self deserving you might say, well, possibly so, It still doesn't erase the fact that they are in pain also and need help too. Perhaps they were not in any pain but now they are dealing with what they did, and they need a shoulder from time to time too. For me, I don't mind being there for her, she is my wife, my love and If I am not there for her then who is?


----------



## Badblood

betrayed1 said:


> I had forgotten that my wife was hurting too. She is still hurting over my many years of neglect and rejection...She has been being there for me and yet afraid to say "Hey I'm hurting still too".
> 
> She triggered yesterday over something I said and she got a little mad and we argued briefly. Her anger quickly turned into tears and she cried a lot and I held her. All this has drummed hurt from years ago..hurt from me her mother and her always being the one caring for others...she has been afraid to say anything really to me or to this board. She has been afraid to say "I am hurt too" like she doesn't have a right to be hurt.
> 
> I realize the WS is the bad guy here, but the WS, in this case, was hurt horribly by me for years, my years of rejection did a number on her, and she needed a shoulder yesterday and I was glad to provide one.
> 
> I guess what I am getting at is not going to be taken well here. But the WS probably had\has issues before the A started, they were probably in some type of pain also. And once the A is in the open all the attention and help goes to the BS, the WS is left to lick there own wounds.
> 
> Self deserving you might say, well, possibly so, It still doesn't erase the fact that they are in pain also and need help too. Perhaps they were not in any pain but now they are dealing with what they did, and they need a shoulder from time to time too. For me, I don't mind being there for her, she is my wife, my love and If I am not there for her then who is?


A hug or an "attagirl", can be an expression of renewed confidence in the WS's new commitment to the marriage. WE ALL need it sometimes.


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## SomedayDig

betrayed1 said:


> I had forgotten that my wife was hurting too. She is still hurting over my many years of neglect and rejection...She has been being there for me and yet afraid to say "Hey I'm hurting still too".
> 
> She triggered yesterday over something I said and she got a little mad and we argued briefly. Her anger quickly turned into tears and she cried a lot and I held her. All this has drummed hurt from years ago..hurt from me her mother and her always being the one caring for others...she has been afraid to say anything really to me or to this board. She has been afraid to say "I am hurt too" like she doesn't have a right to be hurt.
> 
> I realize the WS is the bad guy here, but the WS, in this case, was hurt horribly by me for years, my years of rejection did a number on her, and she needed a shoulder yesterday and I was glad to provide one.
> 
> I guess what I am getting at is not going to be taken well here. But the WS probably had\has issues before the A started, they were probably in some type of pain also. And once the A is in the open all the attention and help goes to the BS, the WS is left to lick there own wounds.
> 
> Self deserving you might say, well, possibly so, It still doesn't erase the fact that they are in pain also and need help too. Perhaps they were not in any pain but now they are dealing with what they did, and they need a shoulder from time to time too. For me, I don't mind being there for her, she is my wife, my love and If I am not there for her then who is?



A good commentary about your wife, B1. One that hits home with Regret and I. Yeah, Regret totally f'd up and did damage that will hurt us for years and years to come. But...we can't pretend that there wasn't stuff from her past that somehow influenced choices she made.

I'm glad that you were there for EI yesterday just as I was for Regret. It's not the most popular of ideas, you are right. However, it is what we must do. Popular or not.


----------



## TBT

SomedayDig said:


> A good commentary about your wife, B1. One that hits home with Regret and I. Yeah, Regret totally f'd up and did damage that will hurt us for years and years to come. But...we can't pretend that there wasn't stuff from her past that somehow influenced choices she made.
> 
> I'm glad that you were there for EI yesterday just as I was for Regret. It's not the most popular of ideas, you are right. However, it is what we must do. Popular or not.


:iagree:

Imo,it would seem totally necessary,in order to have a decent shot at R.Even though the WS may have to do most of the heavy lifting,if you're offering R then you have to be at least willing to give it a fair shot or not even bother in the first place.


----------



## Wazza

I am coming late to this discussion, but thought I should post, to give you a view of what is possible.

My wife and I married in 1983, had kids and money problems, and so she had a few rough years in the late 1980s. In the second half of 1990 she went to college, and the freedom and escape from difficulties at home went to her head. She fell in with a bad crowd, made some bad choices and, with their encouragement, had an affair with one of her tutors. I found out about it pretty quickly, but it continued for another six months, with my knowledge but against my wishes, and with my wife making unsuccessful attempts to conceal it.

My observations. 

First we are still together and right now as happy as we've ever been, so it is possible to work through it and come out the other end happy.

Second, I know it is hard for both of you to be so truthful but it is absolutely the right thing. My wife was the classic trickle truther, and to be honest I will never know if I found out everything. That led to a lot more caution for me. You are clearing the air and your reconciliation will be faster and stronger for it. 

Third, sorry about this but after 22 years I still get the mind movies. Not as bad as they were and not as often, but that may be something you just have to live with. My choice is the pain of mind movies or the infinitely worse pain of losing my wife.

Fourth, and this probably goes against the prevailing orthodoxy here, we are all human and everyone has a breaking point. My wife hit hers, didn't cope and lost control. But to be honest, she hit it because she wasn't coping with life, felt she had to do the right thing, and didn't ask for help when she needed it. As her husband I've seen this pattern in her a few times, and I failed to see it or act on it at this point, so I share some of the blame. And her strong desire to do the right thing is an admirable trait.

Fifth, to be honest I was shattered. At the low point of things she said all sorts of cruel things to me and about me, refused counselling because 'Why should I go to counselling for your problems...you go if you need it." I stayed for the kids and because I believed it was what God wanted, and the most I hoped for at the start was a workable partnership in parenting. I even took off my wedding ring, feeling that the marriage we had committed to in 1983 was gone, and I would have to build something new. Maybe it helped that I saw no hope of restoring things in the beginning....anything good that happened was a bonus.

Sixth, a few years later I developed feelings for a coworker. She was a wonderful human being, very decent as well as sexy, and it made me appreciate the temptation my wife had gone through. I told both the coworker and my wife how I felt, and was able to keep it under control. To this date that lady is a good friend at work. But if I had gone into that without learning from my wife's mistake, or if this lady had been less decent, it could have been me having the affair and messing things up. Who knows.

The bottom line is, noone is perfect, everyone fails. The pain of being cheated on is probably the worst pain I have experienced in my life, but the only way to know it won't happen is to never have a relationship and I think that would be worse.

I'm not posting here for therapy, or for advice. And to be honest I thought everyone here gave EI a pretty hard ride....I wouldn't want my wife to cop that. 

Betrayed1, you know your wife. You might feel like you're unsure right now, but you have a feeling for her character deep inside. And you are both obviously special people given some of the life details you have shared. You have to make a call whether she is making a genuine effort, and my advice to you is to be open about your feelings, and to back your judgement. And EI, if my wife had been as forthcoming as you are, I might have healed a lot quicker. 

God bless to you both, and my prayers are with you on your journey.


----------



## B1

Wazza said:


> I am coming late to this discussion, but thought I should post, to give you a view of what is possible.
> 
> My wife and I married in 1983, had kids and money problems, and so she had a few rough years in the late 1980s. In the second half of 1990 she went to college, and the freedom and escape from difficulties at home went to her head. She fell in with a bad crowd, made some bad choices and, with their encouragement, had an affair with one of her tutors. I found out about it pretty quickly, but it continued for another six months, with my knowledge but against my wishes, and with my wife making unsuccessful attempts to conceal it.
> 
> My observations.
> 
> First we are still together and right now as happy as we've ever been, so it is possible to work through it and come out the other end happy.
> 
> Second, I know it is hard for both of you to be so truthful but it is absolutely the right thing. My wife was the classic trickle truther, and to be honest I will never know if I found out everything. That led to a lot more caution for me. You are clearing the air and your reconciliation will be faster and stronger for it.
> 
> Third, sorry about this but after 22 years I still get the mind movies. Not as bad as they were and not as often, but that may be something you just have to live with. My choice is the pain of mind movies or the infinitely worse pain of losing my wife.
> 
> Fourth, and this probably goes against the prevailing orthodoxy here, we are all human and everyone has a breaking point. My wife hit hers, didn't cope and lost control. But to be honest, she hit it because she wasn't coping with life, felt she had to do the right thing, and didn't ask for help when she needed it. As her husband I've seen this pattern in her a few times, and I failed to see it or act on it at this point, so I share some of the blame. And her strong desire to do the right thing is an admirable trait.
> 
> Fifth, to be honest I was shattered. At the low point of things she said all sorts of cruel things to me and about me, refused counselling because 'Why should I go to counselling for your problems...you go if you need it." I stayed for the kids and because I believed it was what God wanted, and the most I hoped for at the start was a workable partnership in parenting. I even took off my wedding ring, feeling that the marriage we had committed to in 1983 was gone, and I would have to build something new. Maybe it helped that I saw no hope of restoring things in the beginning....anything good that happened was a bonus.
> 
> Sixth, a few years later I developed feelings for a coworker. She was a wonderful human being, very decent as well as sexy, and it made me appreciate the temptation my wife had gone through. I told both the coworker and my wife how I felt, and was able to keep it under control. To this date that lady is a good friend at work. But if I had gone into that without learning from my wife's mistake, or if this lady had been less decent, it could have been me having the affair and messing things up. Who knows.
> 
> The bottom line is, noone is perfect, everyone fails. The pain of being cheated on is probably the worst pain I have experienced in my life, but the only way to know it won't happen is to never have a relationship and I think that would be worse.
> 
> I'm not posting here for therapy, or for advice. And to be honest I thought everyone here gave EI a pretty hard ride....I wouldn't want my wife to cop that.
> 
> Betrayed1, you know your wife. You might feel like you're unsure right now, but you have a feeling for her character deep inside. And you are both obviously special people given some of the life details you have shared. You have to make a call whether she is making a genuine effort, and my advice to you is to be open about your feelings, and to back your judgement. And EI, if my wife had been as forthcoming as you are, I might have healed a lot quicker.
> 
> God bless to you both, and my prayers are with you on your journey.



Thank you for sharing your story with us wazza, it means the world to me and I'm sure my wife also.
It literally brought tears to me eyes. I'm so glad to see you all made it, that things are really good now. -It gives me hope.

I'm sad to see your still dealing with mind movies (Really sorry for you), but honestly that doesn't surprise me. I didn't think they would every completly go away. 

I think she is making a genuine effort to this R and she is truly sorry for the A. We talked a lot about it just yesterday.
She said she would take it all back if only she could, she would have just gotten a D or at least a seperation.
She did communicate with me back then that she could not and would not live that way anymore, that she would find passion
somewhere else if I would not step up. Well, I didn't and she as we all know did find passion 

She knows her thinking was irrational and wrong, that she wasn't in a normal state of thinking and processing thoughts. The whole A process is a boat load of lies, deception and selfish acts. All of which I believe she is very sorry for. This doesn't erase my pain though or erase these image and movies, or that fact that it did happen. My wife had an affair, a emotional and physical affair, I am coming to terms with that. It's making me more sad than anything right now. No anger in days just more hurt, and sadness for some reason is back again. A dull ache is in my heart now, maybe even some numbness, not sure. 

I am not asking a ton of questions anymore, i am learning that they only bring on more pain and suffering. I am learning to let them go. However, my wife has detected a little disconnect the past 2 days. This scares her some, she thinks it's me withdrawing, but it's not the case. It's me accepting, it's me learning to not ask stupid questions that are only going to hurt me and her, it's me processing this whole A. 

I have so much going on in my head regarding this A almost all the time. My mind jumps all over the place, from images, to littel things like her walking to his door, her driving to his house, to big things like going out to dinner with him, cuddeling on the couch with him, and long talks with him, then of course there are the mind movies that creep in and the physical aspect of this A that crushes me to the core. It all hurts, it's all so unbelievable. But she did it, she really went through with this and did it. My wife really had an A. You would think I would fully understand that by now..


I'm not sure what to focus on right now, do I focus on the questions I have, or let them go, Do I focus on dealing with this A, do I let it go and move on? I'm just not real sure what I should be doing right now? What the hell does a BS do 2 months out past Dday? I wish there was this nice little plan to follow and I could just stick to it and things would get better.
We have another MC session tomorrow, I am looking forward to that. 

I know the evenings seem to be bad now, I get anxious and have anxiety and I'm not sure as to why?
Car rides are not as bad as they have been for some reason. The work day can be bad for everyting and, nights, whoa..nights are bad now for images and mind movies, I am more emotional too at night. 

Feeling sad this morning, really sad. I miss my wife this morning..I miss her pretty little face..her smile..her hug. I so wish she had not done this to my heart. But she did.

Take care Wazza thank you again for your post and kind words -God bless!


----------



## Sara8

betrayed 1

If you are only two months out past Dday please stay vigilant for Dday 2. 

Make sure she is not still cheating with affair partner or someone new. 

I have read many times in the 100s of books I have read about the psyche of cheating woman, that often they make contact on a predetermined schedule. 

They all seem to follow a script like clones. 

The script is the they will likely recontact the Ap about three months out. 

It may be in their mind just to say hi but it is really a wish to rekindle the affair. 

The OW in my STBEH's affair contacted him twice three months out. 

Also, often they will use the legal system to try to stay in contact, in various ways, or to try to the the APs attention. so be cautious of this.

The OW in my case also did that. This behavior seems to pertain more to cheating women than men. 

Then again if that contact is thwarted six months and anniversary date of original affair and d day are other dates to be wary of.


----------



## Wazza

Sara8 said:


> betrayed 1
> 
> If you are only two months out past Dday please stay vigilant for Dday 2.
> 
> Make sure she is not still cheating with affair partner or someone new.
> 
> I have read many times in the 100s of books I have read about the psyche of cheating woman, that often they make contact on a predetermined schedule.
> 
> They all seem to follow a script like clones.
> 
> The script is the they will likely recontact the Ap about three months out.
> 
> It may be in their mind just to say hi but it is really a wish to rekindle the affair.
> 
> The OW in my STBEH's affair contacted him twice three months out.
> 
> Also, often they will use the legal system to try to stay in contact, in various ways, or to try to the the APs attention. so be cautious of this.
> 
> The OW in my case also did that. This behavior seems to pertain more to cheating women than men.
> 
> Then again if that contact is thwarted six months and anniversary date of original affair and d day are other dates to be wary of.


Decided to put one more idea into the discussion.

B1 could work to reconcile, and EI could cheat again and run off. It could happen. Or B1 could decide it's all too much, leave, and find someone else...who is fine for a while and then cheats as well. Or B1 could have an affair next time. Or B1 and EI could be driving 20 minutes from now when, without warning, they die in a horrible auto accident. Or many other dire scenarios. Or they could work together and rebuild a relationship that brings them both years of joy. I've seen all of those happen to people I know. There is no way to know what will happen, life is always risk.

Sara8 gives good advice, but it is as good for EI as it is for B1. It will help both of them guard together against the traps they may fall into. 

A lot of people on TAM seem to write about the predictable patterns of affairs, the power of the dopamine fog and the intoxication of it all, and yet want to condemn the wayward spouse who succumbed to these enormous pressures. I understand why - there is sooooo much hurt and anger in betrayal - but surely there comes a time for letting go. Some cheaters are cheaters because they are lowlife, but others are decent, special people who just made a mistake.

When I had, after years, rebuilt a friendship with my wife, I spent a lot of time resisting intimacy. I was so guarded about her hurting me again that I would set tests for her, and create barriers to protect myself. Really I am lucky I didn't totally destroy my marriage with distance in the process. If my wife were a lesser woman that is what would have happened. Rebuilding takes a long time, but I am betting that B1 and EI know the damage distance can do...they know that a solution that leaves them reserved with each other is no solution. 

The pain of betrayal is so intense that it is very, very hard to come to terms with. But the more I let go and trust my wife, the more I allow intimacy to occur, the better it gets. Warmth, affection, some of the most passionate sex we've ever had, my best friend. Could she be cheating still? Maybe. I don't think so, but I can never 100% rule it out. And if it is going to happen it is going to happen. 

All I can ever do is get on with life and make the best of the cards I'm dealt.


----------



## B1

Sara8 said:


> betrayed 1
> 
> If you are only two months out past Dday please stay vigilant for Dday 2.
> 
> Make sure she is not still cheating with affair partner or someone new.
> 
> I have read many times in the 100s of books I have read about the psyche of cheating woman, that often they make contact on a predetermined schedule.
> 
> They all seem to follow a script like clones.
> 
> The script is the they will likely recontact the Ap about three months out.
> 
> It may be in their mind just to say hi but it is really a wish to rekindle the affair.
> 
> The OW in my STBEH's affair contacted him twice three months out.
> 
> Also, often they will use the legal system to try to stay in contact, in various ways, or to try to the the APs attention. so be cautious of this.
> 
> The OW in my case also did that. This behavior seems to pertain more to cheating women than men.
> 
> Then again if that contact is thwarted six months and anniversary date of original affair and d day are other dates to be wary of.


As I write this I am eating a lunch that she packed for me that had a little post-it note that reads "I love you" in it. I got a text this morning saying the same thing and that she is here if I need her. She told me this morning what she was doing and when, she has been doing this kind of stuff since Dday. I still have her picture in my car, that she put there, to help fight the mind movies and the little I love you is still on my steering wheel.

Last night she came to me and said "ok what's wrong" I sense something is wrong, do you need to talk? I had been quiet because I had some questions but I wasn't asking her about them. You see, 100 books may give you a insight into the psyche of many, but it cannot give you insight into the psyche of everyone. Every situation is different; every A is different and happened for different reasons. My wife had an A because she broke, she hit her breaking point. She had a husband who had abandoned her and the marriage, excuse no, reason yes. We lived seperated lives then, slept in seperate rooms etc. The fact I didn't see it is mind boggeling. I was just that shut down.

She made a bad choice to heal an open wound. Now her wound is healing as is mine. Hers is healing because she has a husband now, one that's with her, loves her, cherishes her and honors her. She in turn, is doing everything humanly possible to make this up to me, to make things right. She knows she messed up; she knows she made the worst choice possible. Now, she is living with that choice and it hurts her, and me. But we are surviving it, we are not letting it defeat us. I don't see her throwing this new me, this new us out the window for a fling with her AP. I just don't. She has promised never again, that if she thinks about going that route she will simply ask for a D, and I will do the same. I choose to believe her and so does our therapist.

Also note that I already know *exactly *what she would do if the OM tried to contact her.
I am in IT, last week I spoofed his email, which means I sent her an email that appeared to come from him asking if they could talk,when in fact it came from me. She could not tell the difference. She told me immediately, she was terrified, and she thought she would be in trouble. She was shaken up pretty bad from it. I felt really bad afterwards, But something she said that day bugged me so I did this just to make sure she would do the right thing..and she did.

R's are possible, they don't all end bad and they certainly don't all follow the same script. A's are as different as the people in them and not all WS's are serial cheaters. Some are actually good hearted people who just made a horrible choice. I think my wife is one of those people, otherwise I would not be going through with this R. If I really believed what you said then I would simply just throw in the towel and D, I mean why try if every WS follows a script like you stated.
Fortunately, they don't all follow the same script and they are all certainly NOT clones. Maybe in your case it was, I don't know, never read your story, sorry if your situation followed a certain script. I don't think mine will. I think my marriage has a real chance at R and that's my hope, my goal and my dream.


----------



## the guy

Dude I did the same this with a text message, it felt bad cuz it stressed my chick out but it felt good she the did the right thing....

The bottom line is crap like this helps us get through, no matter how shaddy it is it helped me.....I mean us( me and Mrs.the-guy.

so good for you.


Its been 2-1/2rs since I confronted and my chicks action make me stop pulling crap like that, it also brought the whole snoopng thiing way down. 

These days I only get squarrly when she is late from work.


It does get better as long as you continue to validate that her actions meet her real commitment it does get better and you will become semi retired from the cheater police.

In my case I'm thinking about retiring completely from the cheater police, but it may take another 2-1/2 years......we'll see. LOL


----------



## Wazza

[B]carpenoctem[/B] said:


> *Wazza:* Hello.
> 
> This - "I found out about it pretty quickly, but *it continued for another six months, with my knowledge but against my wishes,... ..." * might have made your case of Reconiliaton far more challenging than many other reconciliation stories here.
> 
> Many BSs here have discovered that the affair was taken underground post-discovery (leading to D-Day 2, 3 etc), but if the affair continued with the BSs' knowledge (many cases of that here too, but those BSs were pretty much subjugated by WSs).
> 
> But in your case, despite this extra dimension of defiance of marriage on her part, you and your wife seem to have managed to pull out a decent Reconciliation, and reached a place of peace.
> 
> That too, *without *you (the BS) becoming a subjugate.
> 
> Some achievement, *that.*
> 
> May your new marriage find newer meanings as life unravels.


Actually, I've now read quite a few infidelity threads on TAM....it's giving me a deeper understanding of what happened to me, which is useful.....and I don't think my experience was all that different. I was confronting her, she was lying, she wasn't at heart a deceptive person so her lies were easy to see through, and her remorse when she came to her senses was entirely genuine and unselfish. She was just a text book case of dopamine delusion.

And like I said earlier, I did a lot to mess up the reconciliation. The credit for what we have now is hers as much as mine.

It would be different if I'd married a snake. I got lucky there.

I do think the standard line of advice on TAM is more ready than I would be to end a marriage. That is in no way a criticism of anyone, just my perspective.


----------



## Badblood

Wazza said:


> Actually, I've now read quite a few infidelity threads on TAM....it's giving me a deeper understanding of what happened to me, which is useful.....and I don't think my experience was all that different. I was confronting her, she was lying, she wasn't at heart a deceptive person so her lies were easy to see through, and her remorse when she came to her senses was entirely genuine and unselfish. She was just a text book case of dopamine delusion.
> 
> And like I said earlier, I did a lot to mess up the reconciliation. The credit for what we have now is hers as much as mine.
> 
> It would be different if I'd married a snake. I got lucky there.
> 
> I do think the standard line of advice on TAM is more ready than I would be to end a marriage. That is in no way a criticism of anyone, just my perspective.


 Not all persons ( BS or WS) are either willing or able to accept the work and responsibility of R, and in some cases the damage is too great. This is why I feel that R should be the exception rather than the rule, and would rather concentrate on the wellbeing of the parties involved.


----------



## B1

[B]carpenoctem[/B] said:


> :smthumbup: :smthumbup: :smthumbup:
> 
> 
> 
> In traditional parts of the Orient (say, China) -- wise and elderly members of joint families have a technique. If they find a grandson or granddaughter developing a strong infatuation for a man / woman they deem totally unfit for the family, *they do not oppose the union in the face of it.*
> 
> Instead, they create a situation where the grandson / granddaughter is required to travel to another city (for a trumped up business or familial purpose), and live there for a while continuously.
> 
> That is it. They know, in their ancient wisdom, that when a person is infused with new stimuli (surroundings, people, culture), past imageries in the mind and strong emotions (such as passion and love) get defused rapidly.
> 
> When the grandson / granddaughter returns after the sojourn, they are talked out of the 'unsuitable' love interest -- *which is far simpler then.*
> 
> I am not saying this is fair (the elders deciding whom the younger generations should choose, *or what mistakes they should make).*
> 
> I mentioned it here to highlight the fact that *when faced will new stimuli, old stings diminish.*
> 
> Since B1 is so frequently tortured by mind movies and triggers, and you two are positive that Reconciliation is the right path for you, I wanted to ask you: are you in position to go to a new surrounding which has no physical reminders of the recent past?
> (the mind movies will follow a BS anywhere, but new stimuli do dampen the acidity of those images).
> 
> This is a kind of escapism (running away from the problem), but if it works, why not (if feasible)?
> 
> I know some couples who have done this successfully -- new jobs, new place, new friends, new stimuli, *new memories.*
> 
> But that might mean leaving TAM too.
> 
> 
> Just a thought.


Great idea...

But no chance on escaping any time soon. However, We do plan on possibly moving within the next year though. We are trying to make new friends and have started hanging out a little with some old friends, good friends which also helps.


----------



## Wazza

Badblood said:


> Not all persons ( BS or WS) are either willing or able to accept the work and responsibility of R, and in some cases the damage is too great. This is why I feel that R should be the exception rather than the rule, and would rather concentrate on the wellbeing of the parties involved.


I can see how in some cases reconciliation is not possible...some of the stories I have read on TAM are truly heartbreaking, and the hard thing about reconciliation is only time will tell if your spouse is sincerely repentant or playing you for a sucker.

But walking away before there is resolution is unfinished business, it can come back to haunt you.

Lifelong committed marriage is a decision. I may meet someone better than my wife tomorrow, but I'm already taken so too bad. And the better I get to know my wife, the more years of intimacy make it impossible for a newbie to match what we have.


----------



## Badblood

Wazza said:


> I can see how in some cases reconciliation is not possible...some of the stories I have read on TAM are truly heartbreaking, and the hard thing about reconciliation is only time will tell if your spouse is sincerely repentant or playing you for a sucker.
> 
> But walking away before there is resolution is unfinished business, it can come back to haunt you.
> 
> Lifelong committed marriage is a decision. I may meet someone better than my wife tomorrow, but I'm already taken so too bad. And the better I get to know my wife, the more years of intimacy make it impossible for a newbie to match what we have.


Sorry to disillusion you, but once my divorce was final, my "business", was finished. I wish my ex wife well, but I do NOT want to know about her and her issues any more. All of the affair information is now meaningless to me. I am confident that I did all I could for her and gave R my best shot, but her issues kept her from true repentance until it was far too late. I committed to her, but I expected that same commitment in return.


----------



## Wazza

Badblood said:


> Sorry to disillusion you, but once my divorce was final, my "business", was finished. I wish my ex wife well, but I do NOT want to know about her and her issues any more. All of the affair information is now meaningless to me. I am confident that I did all I could for her and gave R my best shot, but her issues kept her from true repentance until it was far too late. I committed to her, but I expected that same commitment in return.


Not disillusioned at all. 

Without knowing the specifics of your story, I make the general observation that unless both parties commit to honest reconciliation, it's doomed. Sounds like that was your case, and you made an honest attempt to fix things before concluding they were unsalvageable.


----------



## EI

Wazza said:


> Betrayed1, you know your wife. You might feel like you're unsure right now, but you have a feeling for her character deep inside. And you are both obviously special people given some of the life details you have shared. You have to make a call whether she is making a genuine effort, and my advice to you is to be open about your feelings, and to back your judgement. And EI, if my wife had been as forthcoming as you are, I might have healed a lot quicker.
> 
> God bless to you both, and my prayers are with you on your journey.


Wazza, I don't post on this thread everyday but I do read it daily. I wanted to thank you for sharing your story on our thread. Stories like yours give me so much hope, encouragement and inspiration. There are so many stories on here of betrayal, divorce, false reconciliations, D-Days 1, 2, 3 & beyond, that it can be disheartening, at times, and in the first few weeks after D-Day, (if individuals dare to share their stories that early) it can almost seem futile to believe that a real long term reconciliation is even possible. Stories like yours give others hope that it can be worth the time, effort and pain. Thank you for your support and your prayers.


----------



## EI

Shortly after H & I started posting here and began to talk about reconciliation, someone commented that the most difficult days in MC would actually be when the most gets accomplished. Yesterday was one of those days. I was able to tell him a few things about my state of mind just last month, but I wanted to wait until I had something specific in my hands to corroborate what I was saying. I got the information that we had been waiting for in the mail.... land line phone records.... unlike cell phone records they aren't available online, they have to be ordered. I wanted to create a timeline (as is often spoke of, here on TAM) but I needed the phone records in front of me to do so because so much of the last couple of months was a blur. I took a highlighter and highlighted anything that was important, even things that he wouldn't have noticed or wouldn't have been aware of. H had the OM's cell phone number, but not his home number or his work number. I lit them up with a bright yellow highlighter, anyway. I knew the details of each of those conversations because there were only a few in the first few days after D-Day. I told my husband about each one of them and what was said. When I was able to point out the dates and the lengths of the conversations, they matched exactly with what was going on in our state of R at the time. Basically, there was no R going on.... we were just going through the motions of two very unhappy people. H could see that when the phone calls ended, and the NC letter was sent, that my commitment to our R and marriage became real. That is shortly after I began posting here. I just wanted to share.

P.S. I love my hubby!


----------



## happyman64

EI,

PS.

*Your husband loves you too! *

It is quite obvious. Both of you never lose sight of that fact. Forever!!!!

God rarely gives us 2nd chances! Nor do Battered Spouse's......

So the two of you run with this chance!

HM64


----------



## EI

happyman64 said:


> EI,
> 
> PS.
> 
> *Your husband loves you too! *
> 
> It is quite obvious. Both of you never lose sight of that fact. Forever!!!!
> 
> God rarely gives us 2nd chances! Nor do Battered Spouse's......
> 
> So the two of you run with this chance!
> 
> HM64


That makes me happy! Thank you!


----------



## Badblood

Oh please!! Do we have to group hug or something?


----------



## EI

Badblood said:


> Oh please!! Do we have to group hug or something?



Awww.... I've missed you! But, doesn't this violate the NC with other posters that you and Dig have already established with one another???!!!


----------



## MattMatt

Badblood said:


> Oh please!! Do we have to group hug or something?


:smthumbup:


----------



## MattMatt

Sometimes there are no bad guys. Sometimes all it takes is for a good guy to make some bad decisions.


----------



## EI

MattMatt said:


> :smthumbup:



Hi MM.... I hope that you and yours are doing well! 

Geeeez..... I've got to log off one last time and go to bed. Our special needs son has a procedure in the morning in less than 6 hours. Good thing I don't require much sleep!


----------



## Badblood

Empty Inside said:


> Awww.... I've missed you! But, doesn't this violate the NC with other posters that you and Dig have already established with one another???!!!


You can miss me if you want. Frankly I never believed Dig about the NC letters, anyway, so I'm ready for a revenge affair.


----------



## Badblood

MattMatt said:


> :smthumbup:


Sorry, I don't do group hugs with dudes. I will, however, have a group hug with multiple females.(preferably young Jamaican females):smthumbup:


----------



## Badblood

MattMatt said:


> Sometimes there are no bad guys. Sometimes all it takes is for a good guy to make some bad decisions.


This isn't true. I'm a bad guy and proud of it.


----------



## EI

Badblood said:


> This isn't true. I'm a bad guy and proud of it.


No you're not! You're a nice guy who is kind to animals and loves kids.... but, don't worry, your secret is safe with me! LOL 

This is my last good-night! Logging off now! 

I'm gonna go see if I can wake hubby up!


----------



## Badblood

Go to bed, already. Do you know what time it is? It's way past your curfew, young lady. You're grounded.


----------



## B1

Empty Inside said:


> Shortly after H & I started posting here and began to talk about reconciliation, someone commented that the most difficult days in MC would actually be when the most gets accomplished. Yesterday was one of those days. I was able to tell him a few things about my state of mind just last month, but I wanted to wait until I had something specific in my hands to corroborate what I was saying. I got the information that we had been waiting for in the mail.... land line phone records.... unlike cell phone records they aren't available online, they have to be ordered. I wanted to create a timeline (as is often spoke of, here on TAM) but I needed the phone records in front of me to do so because so much of the last couple of months was a blur. I took a highlighter and highlighted anything that was important, even things that he wouldn't have noticed or wouldn't have been aware of. H had the OM's cell phone number, but not his home number or his work number. I lit them up with a bright yellow highlighter, anyway. I knew the details of each of those conversations because there were only a few in the first few days after D-Day. I told my husband about each one of them and what was said. When I was able to point out the dates and the lengths of the conversations, they matched exactly with what was going on in our state of R at the time. Basically, there was no R going on.... we were just going through the motions of two very unhappy people. H could see that when the phone calls ended, and the NC letter was sent, that my commitment to our R and marriage became real. That is shortly after I began posting here. I just wanted to share.
> 
> P.S. I love my hubby!



Yes, the phone records if anything helped me see a timeline and put things together.
My BIGGEST concern was to make sure NC had not been broken via land line since the letter was sent and it had not. I am confident that she has not broken NC since it was established.
I don't peak at cell phones records near as often, nor see what she is doing as much on the computer. Trust is building back up..I'm still a bit shaky about it but at some point I do have to choose to trust again. 

I chose yesterday to NOT dwell on anything bad, to push out any movies, images, questions etc. I did it successfully for the first time ever. That's not to say it wasn't there, it's always there, but I just didn't let it get me down or override my senses.

Anger seems to have subsided considerably, I am really trying to focus on the fact that it happened, I cannot change that or alter that, I cannot fix it, I cannot make it go away or pretend it didn't happen, I have to learn to accept it and move on. I will be so glad when I can do that. Yet, I have no idea how to do that. My therapist has a plan and simply says I am not ready yet, but when I am, and he will know, he will help me with it. I am seeing him weekly now and it's helping a lot.


I am still getting agitated in the evening, it's like I get anxious about something, maybe nervous, I can't explain it. She picks right up on it. I don't like it either but I cannot help it. Going to bed now is when the images and movies come on strong. Driving not near as much as before. Maybe at night I am just tired and drained and cannot fight as hard to keep all this at bay and it comes flooding out?


----------



## M2lngha1

Man my heart goes out to you! It's clear that you love her because you've definitely hung in there through alot. You've done one important thing and that is you FORGAVE her, BUT......did you FORGIVE YOURSELF? Yeah, you need to forgive yourself too! Now, you both have come to the realization that part of your problem had to do with a physical issue, Low T, something alot of men aren't aware of is a BIG problem for us mainly after 40. As for her, well, you forgave her, you understood all of the issues that drove her into the arms of another man BUT after her first confession of the EA she should have stopped all contact with this other guy if she even remotely cared enough for the marriage. Her actions are speaking louder than words my friend. She has CHOSEN to continue to pour salt in an open wound even after she realized that part of your issue was a physical issue, no fault of your own doing! You stated that you've sought counseling a few times but that you two don't really ever talk about it face to face, alone, just you two. You need to communicate to each other, this is how that emotional connection is reestablished in a relationship. You need to ask her some pretty direct questions and she needs to give you some pretty direct answers if there's any hope of you two salvaging this relationship. She's having her cake and eating it too, this is one heck of a price to pay for something that you had no control of (low t). You need to know if she wants the marriage to work, you need to put your wants and needs aside because it's clear what you want, but it's her with signals all over the place. So give her a choice, either she wants the marriage to work which means she immedieatley stops all contact with this guy or she is willing to go her seperate way from you. As hurtful as the second respons may be it at least places a starting point for you to pick up the broken pieces of your life and to move on knowing that you gave it your all. 

Anthony Taylor
Relationship Advice 
http://yourrelationshipadviceblog.com/


----------



## spudster

Empty Inside said:


> H and I had our first MC session post D-Day together this morning. Many of you speak of this ominous "anger" like it is an inevitable black cloud that has no other option but to consume and destroy us. Well, I have known this counselor for many years and I know his theory about "anger." Anger is a defense mechanism that we surround ourselves with like a hedge of protection. When one person becomes angry towards another, the other person invariably becomes defensive. It becomes a cycle of finger-pointing and simply adds more layers to the hurt and confusion. There are, at least, 40 words in our therapist's definition of what anger really is, but here are a few that I can remember off the top of my head. They are hurt, sad, fearful, confused, disappointed, isolated, afraid......., etc. When my H becomes angry with me, I get defensive.... we both get mad, things take a turn for the worse. I stomp off and then we both sulk, alone. When he looks into my eyes and says, "I'm hurt, I'm scared, I'm disappointed, I'm fearful that you'll hurt me this way, again, I'm resentful, I'm bitter, I'm in pain..... because I love you and I want us to work this out"...... well, then, I melt. I want to love him, comfort him, hold him, help him heal..... then we get closer to one another and closer to healing. Anger is nothing more than a defense mechanism..... but it, often, keeps the very people away who we really want to be closer to.
> ;-)


Hmmmmmm......... How is this working out for you Betrayed?


----------



## B1

M2lngha1 said:


> Man my heart goes out to you! It's clear that you love her because you've definitely hung in there through alot. You've done one important thing and that is you FORGAVE her, BUT......did you FORGIVE YOURSELF? Yeah, you need to forgive yourself too! Now, you both have come to the realization that part of your problem had to do with a physical issue, Low T, something alot of men aren't aware of is a BIG problem for us mainly after 40. As for her, well, you forgave her, you understood all of the issues that drove her into the arms of another man BUT after her first confession of the EA she should have stopped all contact with this other guy if she even remotely cared enough for the marriage. Her actions are speaking louder than words my friend. She has CHOSEN to continue to pour salt in an open wound even after she realized that part of your issue was a physical issue, no fault of your own doing! You stated that you've sought counseling a few times but that you two don't really ever talk about it face to face, alone, just you two. You need to communicate to each other, this is how that emotional connection is reestablished in a relationship. You need to ask her some pretty direct questions and she needs to give you some pretty direct answers if there's any hope of you two salvaging this relationship. She's having her cake and eating it too, this is one heck of a price to pay for something that you had no control of (low t). You need to know if she wants the marriage to work, you need to put your wants and needs aside because it's clear what you want, but it's her with signals all over the place. So give her a choice, either she wants the marriage to work which means she immedieatley stops all contact with this guy or she is willing to go her seperate way from you. As hurtful as the second respons may be it at least places a starting point for you to pick up the broken pieces of your life and to move on knowing that you gave it your all.
> 
> Anthony Taylor
> Relationship Advice
> Your Relationship Advice Blog


A NC letter was sent and established and it has not been broken, We do talk, a lot, every day and have since Dday. That's about all we do most days is communicate and share our hurts, feelings, concerns, tears, fears and hopes and dreams too. 

We are in MC and IC. We are deep into R here. We both want this marriage to work, she is doing all she can and more and so am I. Please read the entire thread and you will see that everything you asked and mentioned is addressed in this thread.


----------



## B1

spudster said:


> Hmmmmmm......... How is this working out for you Betrayed?


Actually, very well now. She has come along way and so have I.
We are deep into R and both in MC and IC. In the last month we have talked more then we have in the last 10 years, she now has a husband who is emotionally and physically there and I have a wife who is truly sorry for what she did and is doing everything she can to make it up to me. We still have a bumpy road ahead of us, we will still have some bad days, but we are working to repair, no, we are building a new marriage, the old one was dead long before the A every started. I love her and she loves me and we are working through this mess we both made. We are actually doing a very good job with it if I don't say so myself. 

As our counselor has said, we are a miracle. In the beginning of all this my wife actually said it would take one for us to R. Well, we are doing it, it's not always easy, yes it still hurts, but I love this woman and I now know she loves me too.


----------



## jh52

Betrayed:

Prayers and thoughts to you and Empty. You are both a great example of 2 people who lost each other -- but through alot of tears, work, talking, etc have found each other again just like you did many years ago.

Wishing you and your family the very best for many many years to come.

Just keep doing what you are doing -- and never take each other for granted ever again.


----------



## EI

jh52 said:


> Betrayed:
> 
> Prayers and thoughts to you and Empty. You are both a great example of 2 people who lost each other -- but through alot of tears, work, talking, etc have found each other again just like you did many years ago.
> 
> Wishing you and your family the very best for many many years to come.
> 
> Just keep doing what you are doing -- and never take each other for granted ever again.


Thanks so much..... encouragement really lifts our spirits and makes a huge difference. We're both smiling a lot more these days!


----------



## thebuckest

Just checked back in on ur thread to see how u were both doing and seems to be good. Believe it or not I bet u are both further along in R than u think. I bet I wouldn't even call it R so much as the building of the flundation of ur new marriage. Glad to finally see u understanding what communicating and mental focus can do for u betrayed. Remember you control you mind bro things may try to creep in but with some thought u can push that back. Wish u all the best keep showing the love.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

thebuckest said:


> Just checked back in on ur thread to see how u were both doing and seems to be good. Believe it or not I bet u are both further along in R than u think. I bet I wouldn't even call it R so much as the building of the flundation of ur new marriage. Glad to finally see u understanding what communicating and mental focus can do for u betrayed. Remember you control you mind bro things may try to creep in but with some thought u can push that back. Wish u all the best keep showing the love.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you thebuckest, the encouragement is nice. Sometimes I do think we are far ahead of the game, but that also scares me a little. I want so bad to do this the right way, to not miss anything. To make sure we cover everything...but I guess too there really isn't a template for this to follow....No guide, everyone is different and every situation is different and people respond differently. 

Yesterday was a really good day, another day where I won most of the battles with the mind movies..I did not shed a tear yesterday either, almost did once but we talked through it.

Yes, we are building a new marriage. The old one is dead and gone. it was a real mess without the A. We are husband and wife again, a team, partners, parents, lovers and more.
Yes, with some turmoil thrown in, yes with some pain too, but we are working this out together and that's what I truly want to do. I love her and I know she loves me and that makes me a very happy man.


We are showing and sharing the love with each other


----------



## MEM2020

Betrayed,
Is there something you "do" when you have triggered and get angry? 

Is there a path of thought that helps you?

My W has never had a physical affair so I will not claim to understand your pain. 

I can only say that when I start to get caught up in thoughts of "mean" things she has done to me, I do two things:
- remind myself that I also have done some mean things to her, and 
- start to think about the endless stream of kind/loving things she has done for me and for our children 

After a short time I really do feel better. I only suggest this because it is obvious from both your posts that you do love each other and that there has been some very hurtful behavior mixed in with a lot of loving acts. 

If I were to choose to go down the "here is what she has wrong to me path", without considering my own imperfections, not only would the marriage suffer, I would be more tense and angry in general. 




betrayed1 said:


> Thank you thebuckest, the encouragement is nice. Sometimes I do think we are far ahead of the game, but that also scares me a little. I want so bad to do this the right way, to not miss anything. To make sure we cover everything...but I guess too there really isn't a template for this to follow....No guide, everyone is different and every situation is different and people respond differently.
> 
> Yesterday was a really good day, another day where I won most of the battles with the mind movies..I did not shed a tear yesterday either, almost did once but we talked through it.
> 
> Yes, we are building a new marriage. The old one is dead and gone. it was a real mess without the A. We are husband and wife again, a team, partners, parents, lovers and more.
> Yes, with some turmoil thrown in, yes with some pain too, but we are working this out together and that's what I truly want to do. I love her and I know she loves me and that makes me a very happy man.
> 
> 
> We are showing and sharing the love with each other


----------



## EI

MEM11363 said:


> Betrayed,
> Is there something you "do" when you have triggered and get angry?
> 
> Is there a path of thought that helps you?
> 
> My W has never had a physical affair so I will not claim to understand your pain.
> 
> I can only say that when I start to get caught up in thoughts of "mean" things she has done to me, I do two things:
> - remind myself that I also have done some mean things to her, and
> - start to think about the endless stream of kind/loving things she has done for me and for our children
> 
> After a short time I really do feel better. I only suggest this because it is obvious from both your posts that you do love each other and that there has been some very hurtful behavior mixed in with a lot of loving acts.
> 
> If I were to choose to go down the "here is what she has wrong to me path", without considering my own imperfections, not only would the marriage suffer, I would be more tense and angry in general.



Thank you, MEM. I read your comments on my original thread and, here, on my H's. I appreciate your understanding regarding the state of mind that I was in when my A began. Nothing justifies have an A, but it does help when others are willing to show compassion regarding the circumstances surrounding the A. I really love your advice about reminding yourself about the positive attributes of your spouse when you start to get caught up in the negative emotions and then acknowledging your own mistakes in the relationship, as well.

Thanks for taking your time to comment.


----------



## B1

MEM11363 said:


> Betrayed,
> Is there something you "do" when you have triggered and get angry?
> 
> Is there a path of thought that helps you?
> 
> My W has never had a physical affair so I will not claim to understand your pain.
> 
> I can only say that when I start to get caught up in thoughts of "mean" things she has done to me, I do two things:
> - remind myself that I also have done some mean things to her, and
> - start to think about the endless stream of kind/loving things she has done for me and for our children
> 
> After a short time I really do feel better. I only suggest this because it is obvious from both your posts that you do love each other and that there has been some very hurtful behavior mixed in with a lot of loving acts.
> 
> If I were to choose to go down the "here is what she has wrong to me path", without considering my own imperfections, not only would the marriage suffer, I would be more tense and angry in general.


Thank you for posting about this...

I really do try those things, I will generally remind myself how loved I was prior, how very hard she tried to have an affair with me. I will try to remember the good things, our good times, but sometimes it's just not enough. When my mind gets away from me it's brutal. It usually only lasts for a few minutes but in that few minutes I see and hear things I assume happened. It's awful and sickening to deal with.

The counselor is quick to note that it's only in my mind, it's NOT happening now. That I need to focus on the good things about us, the memories we have made. Put me in the images etc.

I try all of it and for the most part it works, just not always.


----------



## MattMatt

Have you two lovers (yep! That's what you are! ) thought about some kind of super-duper, funky renewal of vows ceremony, maybe even involving your children?


----------



## EI

betrayed1 said:


> Thank you for posting about this...
> 
> I really do try those things, I will generally remind myself how loved I was prior, how very hard she tried to have an affair with me. I will try to remember the good things, our good times, but sometimes it's just not enough. When my mind gets away from me it's brutal. It usually only lasts for a few minutes but in that few minutes I see and hear things I assume happened. It's awful and sickening to deal with.
> 
> The counselor is quick to note that it's only in my mind, it's NOT happening now. That I need to focus on the good things about us, the memories we have made. Put me in the images etc.
> 
> I try all of it and for the most part it works, just not always.


Does it help to know that I have never been more in love with you than I am right now and that you make me happier than I have ever been before? Does it help to know that about 6 weeks ago I told our therapist in IC that it would take a miracle to put "us" back together and then I went back and told him that I felt that we were a miracle and he happily agreed? Does it help to know that you have made me feel more loved, cherished, adored, desirable and beautiful than I have ever felt in my whole life? Does it help to know that even when I hoped, wished and prayed that we would have a better marriage, that I never even began to dream of one like we are having right now, in spite of the hurt that we are dealing with? Does it help to know that I love you and am so excited that I get to spend the rest of my life loving you and sharing my life with you? Does it help to know that I'm so sorry that I hurt you and that I promise that I will never hurt you this way again? <3 xoxoxo

P. S. I LOVE YOU <3


----------



## B1

MattMatt said:


> Have you two lovers (yep! That's what you are! ) thought about some kind of super-duper, funky renewal of vows ceremony, maybe even involving your children?


Yes, we have talked about it, nothing planned as of yet but we will renew our vows sometime in the very near future.


----------



## B1

Empty Inside said:


> Does it help to know that I have never been more in love with you than I am right now and that you make me happier than I have ever been before? Does it help to know that about 6 weeks ago I told our therapist in IC that it would take a miracle to put "us" back together and then I went back and told him that I felt that we were a miracle and he happily agreed? Does it help to know that you have made me feel more loved, cherished, adored, desirable and beautiful than I have ever felt in my whole life? Does it help to know that even when I hoped, wished and prayed that we would have a better marriage, that I never even began to dream of one like we are having right now, in spite of the hurt that we are dealing with? Does it help to know that I love you and am so excited that I get to spend the rest of my life loving you and sharing my life with you? Does it help to know that I'm so sorry that I hurt you and that I promise that I will never hurt you this way again? <3 xoxoxo
> 
> P. S. I LOVE YOU <3


Yes, that all helps a great deal, it really does and I love you too very much. <3


----------



## Badblood

Oh Sh*t! two maudlin posts in a row.


----------



## EI

Badblood said:


> Oh Sh*t! two maudlin posts in a row.


----------



## EI

I think your "work" here is done, Badblood! But, please feel free to drop in on us from time to time to visit and to say "hello!"  LOL


----------



## MEM2020

B & E,
The happy recon stories I read here show this specific pattern:
Commitment in effort and also the willingness to be vulnerable to a partner who has hurt you. A high level of empathy for the pain we caused our spouse. 

Commitment, trust manifested as a willingness to be vulnerable, and empathy. You are lucky to have each other. And yor kids are lucky to have you.




betrayed1 said:


> Yes, that all helps a great deal, it really does and I love you too very much. <3


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Badblood

Empty Inside said:


> I think your "work" here is done, Badblood! But, please feel free to drop in on us from time to time to visit and to say "hello!"  LOL


I did nothing, You and B1 did it all. You both were able to take criticism, learn from each other and the posters, and admit to issues. You should have no problems in the future that BOTH of you cannot handle. Good Luck (but keep the smarmy stuff to yourself) LOL


----------



## EI

MattMatt said:


> Have you two lovers (yep! That's what you are! ) thought about some kind of super-duper, funky renewal of vows ceremony, maybe even involving your children?


MM, I love your posts! You are so positive and help people see the "potential of good" in difficult situations! Yes, we have talked about renewing our vows. I think our therapist might have suggested it first. I'm thinking sometime during the holidays. Like you said, I have already thought about it including our children and grandson. I want it to be *very personal* so it won't be about fancy clothes, flowers, guest, parties...... just us, our children and someone to officiate. I want us to write our own vows. I have some very special and personal things that I'd like to say to my husband. It is unbelievable to me that H & I have come so far in such a short period of time. I feel blessed beyond measure.... truly, truly blessed.

Thank you for sharing your advice, insight, wisdom and encouragement with us! And, thank you, for sharing your own personal story, too. You are an example of so many good things in a marriage. Not because yours was or is always perfect.... but because of how you have handled it along the way.


----------



## EI

MEM11363 said:


> B & E,
> The happy recon stories I read here show this specific pattern:
> Commitment in effort and also the willingness to be vulnerable to a partner who has hurt you. A high level of empathy for the pain we caused our spouse.
> 
> Commitment, trust manifested as a willingness to be vulnerable, and empathy. You are lucky to have each other. And yor kids are lucky to have you.
> 
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I couldn't agree with you more. I think you have hit the nail on the head. Thank you for your words of wisdom and understanding.


----------



## EI

Badblood said:


> I did nothing, You and B1 did it all. You both were able to take criticism, learn from each other and the posters, and admit to issues. You should have no problems in the future that BOTH of you cannot handle. Good Luck (but keep the smarmy stuff to yourself) LOL



Badblood, you like the smarmy stuff and you know it.... or you wouldn't keep coming back! 

:lol:


----------



## calvin

Empty Inside said:


> Does it help to know that I have never been more in love with you than I am right now and that you make me happier than I have ever been before? Does it help to know that about 6 weeks ago I told our therapist in IC that it would take a miracle to put "us" back together and then I went back and told him that I felt that we were a miracle and he happily agreed? Does it help to know that you have made me feel more loved, cherished, adored, desirable and beautiful than I have ever felt in my whole life? Does it help to know that even when I hoped, wished and prayed that we would have a better marriage, that I never even began to dream of one like we are having right now, in spite of the hurt that we are dealing with? Does it help to know that I love you and am so excited that I get to spend the rest of my life loving you and sharing my life with you? Does it help to know that I'm so sorry that I hurt you and that I promise that I will never hurt you this way again? <3 xoxoxo
> 
> P. S. I LOVE YOU <3


Just want you to know CSS read this and with tears in her eyes told me to read it because she very much feels the same way and can really relate 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

calvin said:


> Just want you to know CSS read this and with tears in her eyes told me to read it because she very much feels the same way and can really relate
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Calvin, please tell CSS that I was just beginning to enjoy chatting with her, as I feel that we (she and I) and us (both couples) have many similarities. I think that having someone who can truly empathize with you, as only someone who has been through something like this can, can really encourage you on the bad days and share your joy and successes on the good days. I think we all need as much encouragement, support, tough love (sometimes) and accountability as we can possibly get. People come onto TAM at various stages in their relationships. For those who have been here a while it can be easy to "see" what stage they're in. But, it is so important to remember that these are real people in real pain and we need to meet them where they are.... I'm just rambling now.

Tell CSS that I miss her and I can't wait until she gets to come back on. I thought about you guys this past week and wondered if not having this crazy place to come and vent would make it more stressful for you. I knew that you all had a big MC session coming up and I was hoping that it went well. We had a good/tough one, too, this week. But, I think we came away from it so much closer and healthier. This is hard work. But, boy is it worth it! Hang in there. 

BTW, why did CSS get a longer sentence in timeout than you did? And, when is she coming back?


----------



## Badblood

Empty Inside said:


> Badblood, you like the smarmy stuff and you know it.... or you wouldn't keep coming back!
> 
> :lol:


The reason I like this thread is that it is encouraging to posters, as well as helpful to you and B1. You remember that you used to get upset that we called you on your sense of entitlement issues, but you were adult enough to look at this issue and work to fix it. Shows a LOT of maturity on your part.


----------



## calvin

Empty, CSS wanted me to tell you that when she gets back she looks forward to talking and pming with you, she's glad to have someone going through the same thing to confide in. She wont be back till Saturday.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

calvin said:


> Empty, CSS wanted me to tell you that when she gets back she looks forward to talking and pming with you, she's glad to have someone going through the same thing to confide in. She wont be back till Saturday.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Tell her that I'll be right here and to hang in there 'til Saturday!


----------



## jh52

calvin said:


> Empty, CSS wanted me to tell you that when she gets back she looks forward to talking and pming with you, she's glad to have someone going through the same thing to confide in. She wont be back till Saturday.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


calvin -- CSS got banned for 2 weeks ??


----------



## B1

Badblood said:


> The reason I like this thread is that it is encouraging to posters, as well as helpful to you and B1. You remember that you used to get upset that we called you on your sense of entitlement issues, but you were adult enough to look at this issue and work to fix it. Shows a LOT of maturity on your part.


That sense of entitlement...boy was that a tough one to get through and deal with as a BS. You really have to realize as a BS that the WS in the beginning is truly in a fog, even if they want to R, and are saying they are sorry...they are still in that fog, they are still unsure of what they REALLY want. The fog of an A is so dense that it really clouds the judgement and senses of the WS. 

The BS really has to stick with it and, in many ways, take a risk, and put their heart on the line and hope the WS comes out of the fog and really wants to R. Yes, the WS has a lot of work to do, remorse to show etc. but the BS has to meet the WS where they are and go from there. That place they meet at may not be ideal for the BS, it may hurt like hell but if you are determined to try then I say go for it. You will know soon enough, by their words and actions, if your marriage is worth fighting for or not. I determined mine was.


----------



## calvin

Empty Inside said:


> Tell her that I'll be right here and to hang in there 'til Saturday!


I will.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

jh52 said:


> calvin -- CSS got banned for 2 weeks ??


Yup,two weeks jh.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

betrayed1 said:


> That sense of entitlement...boy was that a tough one to get through and deal with as a BS. You really have to realize as a BS that the WS in the beginning is truly in a fog, even if they want to R, and are saying they are sorry...they are still in that fog, they are still unsure of what they REALLY want. The fog of an A is so dense that it really clouds the judgement and senses of the WS.
> 
> The BS really has to stick with it and, in many ways, take a risk, and put their heart on the line and hope the WS comes out of the fog and really wants to R. Yes, the WS has a lot of work to do, remorse to show etc. but the BS has to meet the WS where they are and go from there. That place they meet at may not be ideal for the BS, it may hurt like hell but if you are determined to try then I say go for it. You will know soon enough, by their words and actions, if your marriage is worth fighting for or not. I determined mine was.


I agree,CSS was still in a fog but it was different than before her EA,she still thought OM was'nt a bad guy.That was untill I did a lot of digging and showed her the proof.OM did the rest by saying disgusting things about her,had it all on voice mail.She could'nt believe it.
It sounds like things are working out for you two,glad to hear it.
We are getting there too 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

June 20, 2012


Badblood said:


> This is one of the most amazing examples of self-delusion, I've ever seen here, on TAM. Betrayed1 you wife IS going to cheat again, because she has NO remorse at all, and what is more, she feels that any cheating she does is YOUR fault and she is blameless. She has not, in all her posts, given even one example of true guilt and sorrow. I am truly sorry for you.


July 29th, 2012


Badblood said:


> I did nothing, You and B1 did it all. You both were able to take criticism, learn from each other and the posters, and admit to issues. You should have no problems in the future that BOTH of you cannot handle. Good Luck (but keep the smarmy stuff to yourself) LOL


July 29th, 2012


Badblood said:


> The reason I like this thread is that it is encouraging to posters, as well as helpful to you and B1. You remember that you used to get upset that we called you on your sense of entitlement issues, but you were adult enough to look at this issue and work to fix it. Shows a LOT of maturity on your part.




Well, well, well, what a difference 39 days make! Either I have come a very long way in 39 days (which I have  ) or just maybe you were a little bit too hard on me??? I admit that a lot has changed (all for the better) since I began posting here. But, when I made my first post it was only two weeks past D-Day and a few days before the whole truth would finally trickle out...... I resisted the NC letter, at first, because I wouldn't send it until I knew that I could honor it. I resisted showing remorse at first because I couldn't express it until I felt it. But, my husband found the strength to hold me when he could have let go, he found the strength to love me when I wasn't loveable, he found the strength to pick me up, in all of my brokenness, and help me heal.... because he loved me. It took patience, vulnerability, perseverance, every ounce of his being, all while he was in so much pain that he would later describe it as being unbearable. I don't even have the words to describe how that makes me feel. 

As I was typing this, H came to me and asked me to read a post that he had typed and he wanted my thoughts on it before he sent it. He has already posted it now. I find it ironic how closely it mirrors mine. He and I had not even had this discussion today. I love that man! <3


----------



## Badblood

Hard on you? Not a bit! Think of me as "training Wheels", for your new marriage ride. LOL


----------



## warlock07

Need to be careful. EI has the memory of an elephant and might dig up my older posts


----------



## EI

warlock07 said:


> Need to be careful. EI has the memory of an elephant and might dig up my older posts



No need for me to dig them up, old friend, I have them all committed to memory! I remember very well who was naughty and who was nice. Good thing I don't work for Santa Claus! LOL


----------



## Beowulf

Well, I try to be nice but Morrigan says I'm better when I'm naughty.


----------



## happyman64

Beowulf said:


> Well, I try to be nice but Morrigan says I'm better when I'm naughty.


That is one of the keys to a successful marriage Beowulf. Sshhhhhh please keep it a secret.......
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Beowulf said:


> Well, I try to be nice but Morrigan says I'm better when I'm naughty.



Welcome Back! You were missed!


----------



## EI

happyman64 said:


> That is one of the keys to a successful marriage Beowulf. Sshhhhhh please keep it a secret.......
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



It's a good secret...... as long as I'm only naughty, at home, with Hubby, he likes it..... and I am terribly mischievous.


----------



## bandit.45

Empty Inside said:


> No need for me to dig them up, old friend, I have them all committed to memory! I remember very well who was naughty and who was nice. Good thing I don't work for Santa Claus! LOL


Glad you and Badblood made nicey nice. 

Your still not off the hook with me...and you won't be for a long time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

bandit.45 said:


> Glad you and Badblood made nicey nice.
> 
> Your still not off the hook with me...and you won't be for a long time.


I don't believe you! But, I'm glad you're back. It wasn't the same, here, without you.


----------



## Badblood

bandit.45 said:


> Glad you and Badblood made nicey nice.
> 
> Your still not off the hook with me...and you won't be for a long time.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't think being "off the hook", with you is EI's main focus. Being"off the hook", with BI is probably more important. And I don't think she actually needs to be "off the hook' with anybody. She is dealing with her issues, in a positive and honest manner, so I think that encouragement is called for.


----------



## bandit.45

Badblood said:


> I don't think being "off the hook", with you is EI's main focus. Being"off the hook", with BI is probably more important. And I don't think she actually needs to be "off the hook' with anybody. She is dealing with her issues, in a positive and honest manner, so I think that encouragement is called for.


No.

I'm special. Remember that.


:rofl:


----------



## EI

Badblood said:


> I don't think being "off the hook", with you is EI's main focus. Being"off the hook", with BI is probably more important. And I don't think she actually needs to be "off the hook' with anybody. She is dealing with her issues, in a positive and honest manner, so I think that encouragement is called for.





bandit.45 said:


> No.
> 
> I'm special. Remember that.
> 
> 
> :rofl:


Boys, behave yourself!


----------



## Badblood

Why would I want to start now?


----------



## B1

I had a little bit of a hard day yesterday...it was Thursday, the day "they" usually met. No anger just hurt and tears and I felt very out of sorts once I got home. 

I looked at my wife, in tears, and caught myself saying, "You had $ex with another man...do you know that, do you really know that" I repeated it a couple of times as if I expected her to say something to make it all go away, to make it ok. Or perhaps I wanted her to break down and cry screaming I know...I know... God I'm so sorry, how could I have done that.

I wish there were words that would take the pain away. She was wonderful, comforting, apologetic as can be..but there are just no words to take this away. I guess time is the best answer here, time and her love.

Just thought I would share...today so far is going well. I am winning the battle of the images. I have to remember I choose R and I need to really focus on that point more so than the other stuff. My wife loves me and I love her. I have a IC session today, I am glad, I need it.


----------



## Badblood

betrayed1 said:


> I had a little bit of a hard day yesterday...it was Thursday, the day "they" usually met. No anger just hurt and tears and I felt very out of sorts once I got home.
> 
> I looked at my wife, in tears, and caught myself saying, "You had $ex with another man...do you know that, do you really know that" I repeated it a couple of times as if I expected her to say something to make it all go away, to make it ok. Or perhaps I wanted her to break down and cry screaming I know...I know... God I'm so sorry, how could I have done that.
> 
> I wish there were words that would take the pain away. She was wonderful, comforting, apologetic as can be..but there are just no words to take this away. I guess time is the best answer here, time and her love.
> 
> Just thought I would share...today so far is going well. I am winning the battle of the images. I have to remember I choose R and I need to really focus on that point more so than the other stuff. My wife loves me and I love her. I have a IC session today, I am glad, I need it.


Pardner, One thing I learned as a combat Marine was sometimes all you can do is endure. When you are surrounded by chaos and fire, you keep on, keeping on. You are going to have hard times, it's inevitable, but you have a couple of huge bonuses. You have a good heart and you have a woman who loves you. So, like the song, "Don't let it bring you down". Annie Lennox - Don't Let It Bring U Down - YouTube


----------



## cantthinkstraight

betrayed1 said:


> I had a little bit of a hard day yesterday...it was Thursday, the day "they" usually met. No anger just hurt and tears and I felt very out of sorts once I got home.
> 
> I looked at my wife, in tears, and caught myself saying, "You had $ex with another man...do you know that, do you really know that" I repeated it a couple of times as if I expected her to say something to make it all go away, to make it ok. Or perhaps I wanted her to break down and cry screaming I know...I know... God I'm so sorry, how could I have done that.
> 
> I wish there were words that would take the pain away. She was wonderful, comforting, apologetic as can be..but there are just no words to take this away. I guess time is the best answer here, time and her love.
> 
> Just thought I would share...today so far is going well. I am winning the battle of the images. I have to remember I choose R and I need to really focus on that point more so than the other stuff. My wife loves me and I love her. I have a IC session today, I am glad, I need it.


I feel your pain, bro.

I'm living the same nightmare as you.

Stay strong. Take care of yourself.


----------



## B1

Had another great IC session today. These IC sessions are really helping. I really wasn't sure they would help that much at all but they are truly making a difference for me. My counselor really helps me see the big picture and really pushes me to let go of the details and stop it with all the questions.

He says these questions or details have power, and I must take away the power they have over me. They are doing nothing but hurting me and her, and that's true. Fact is, I have all the answers now, and I have heard so many details I don't want to hear anymore. But part of me keeps wanting to ask and dig for more. I have to stop it.

We had a great day today, we shopped, had a bite to eat, shopped some more and just got home. It was a nice day, a really nice day for us. Tomorrow we are going to the gallery that is showing my images, and then shop some more for our sons birthday. Should be another great day.

I think I am on the brink of being able to let go of the details.


----------



## SomedayDig

betrayed1 said:


> I think I am on the brink of being able to let go of the details.


Someday...

I will, too.


----------



## EI

SomedayDig said:


> Someday...
> 
> I will, too.


You will get there, Dig, I know you will. You're just hurting so much right now. And, you have every reason to feel the way you do. You will get past the hurt and the anger and devastation.... *WHEN YOU DO*. 

I carried so much resentment towards B1 for years. I was so bitter. During my A, the resentment no longer consumed me because I had found a "drug" to mask my pain and bitterness. Soon, after D-Day, and all of the initial aftermath that followed, I realized the depth of pain that B1 was in. I was immediately sorry that he was hurting, sorry that I was the one who caused his pain, but I was NOT sorry that I had "done it." Someone on TAM, I don't remember who, said that there was a difference between guilt and remorse. I didn't "get it" at the time. I only "got it" when I "got it." B1 was asking me to help him heal and I couldn't. I couldn't give him what he needed because I didn't feel what he needed me to feel. All of a sudden, all of my bitterness towards him for the old hurts came rushing back to the surface. I was angry, bitter, defensive, defiant, feeling entitled,.... every ugly emotion you can imagine, I felt it. 

Because I must be the luckiest woman alive, B1 realized, in the depth of all of his pain, I have no idea how, that he was going to have to meet me where I was if we were to have any chance of recovering. My heart and soul were so far gone from this marriage. He held me, loved me, comforted me, healed me.... did I say that he loved me? That precious man that I love with every ounce of my being loved me. I don't know how to explain it, but there was a moment when I realized that my bitterness was gone, my heart was healed, the love that I thought was long gone was not just a tiny spark reigniting, but a blazing inferno. 

I am not suggesting that it is *EVER* the betrayed spouses job to win the cheating spouse back. The only thing I am trying to say is that years worth of resentment and bitterness for me were truly "gone" in an instant. And, I mean that with all sincerity. What I am saying is that I believe that people can heal, can recover, can survive and thrive and be better. You and Regret are doing everything that you can to recover and you will.... *WHEN YOU DO!*

Now, I spend my days (and nights) doing everything I can to love him, cherish him, adore him, help him heal, and I feel so lucky and blessed to have this opportunity. If this is my sentence then I'm in.... lock the door and throw away the key. 


Edit: Please let me add that I am not suggesting that you need to be doing anything more than you are already doing. I believe that you are doing amazingly well, under the circumstances. What I am saying is that if I healed, in a moment, that I hope and believe that others can, too. This is my hope for you, B1 and all of the betrayed spouses.


----------



## Wazza

Empty Inside said:


> You will get there, Dig, I know you will. You're just hurting so much right now. And, you have every reason to feel the way you do. You will get past the hurt and the anger and devastation.... *WHEN YOU DO*.
> 
> I carried so much resentment towards B1 for years. I was so bitter. During my A, the resentment no longer consumed me because I had found a "drug" to mask my pain and bitterness. Soon, after D-Day, and all of the initial aftermath that followed, I realized the depth of pain that B1 was in. I was immediately sorry that he was hurting, sorry that I was the one who caused his pain, but I was NOT sorry that I had "done it." Someone on TAM, I don't remember who, said that there was a difference between guilt and remorse. I didn't "get it" at the time. I only "got it" when I "got it." B1 was asking me to help him heal and I couldn't. I couldn't give him what he needed because I didn't feel what he needed me to feel. All of a sudden, all of my bitterness towards him for the old hurts came rushing back to the surface. I was angry, bitter, defensive, defiant, feeling entitled,.... every ugly emotion you can imagine, I felt it.
> 
> Because I must be the luckiest woman alive, B1 realized, in the depth of all of his pain, I have no idea how, that he was going to have to meet me where I was if we were to have any chance of recovering. My heart and soul were so far gone from this marriage. He held me, loved me, comforted me, healed me.... did I say that he loved me? That precious man that I love with every ounce of my being loved me. I don't know how to explain it, but there was a moment when I realized that my bitterness was gone, my heart was healed, the love that I thought was long gone was not just a tiny spark reigniting, but a blazing inferno.
> 
> I am not suggesting that it is *EVER* the betrayed spouses job to win the cheating spouse back. The only thing I am trying to say is that years worth of resentment and bitterness for me were truly "gone" in an instant. And, I mean that with all sincerity. What I am saying is that I believe that people can heal, can recover, can survive and thrive and be better. You and Regret are doing everything that you can to recover and you will.... *WHEN YOU DO!*
> 
> Now, I spend my days (and nights) doing everything I can to love him, cherish him, adore him, help him heal, and I feel so lucky and blessed to have this opportunity. If this is my sentence then I'm in.... lock the door and throw away the key.


Sorry this is maybe a hard question, but to make sense of what you are saying......what will you do if things go bad between you and B1 again? What would you do differently?


----------



## Badblood

betrayed1 said:


> Had another great IC session today. These IC sessions are really helping. I really wasn't sure they would help that much at all but they are truly making a difference for me. My counselor really helps me see the big picture and really pushes me to let go of the details and stop it with all the questions.
> 
> He says these questions or details have power, and I must take away the power they have over me. They are doing nothing but hurting me and her, and that's true. Fact is, I have all the answers now, and I have heard so many details I don't want to hear anymore. But part of me keeps wanting to ask and dig for more. I have to stop it.
> 
> We had a great day today, we shopped, had a bite to eat, shopped some more and just got home. It was a nice day, a really nice day for us. Tomorrow we are going to the gallery that is showing my images, and then shop some more for our sons birthday. Should be another great day.
> 
> I think I am on the brink of being able to let go of the details.


Letting go of the details is a bad idea, finding ways for the details not to bother you is a good idea. Trying to "let go", minimize or forget the details will only cause you frustration, because you are never going to forget them, they are a part of your thought processes, now. But, as your R progresses, the pain that the details cause, will lessen. Like the memory of an old injury. I remember breaking my arm playing middle school football. I remember how much it hurt, I remember what caused it, I remember all of the details, but they have no power to frighten me or cause me worry. See what I mean?


----------



## B1

SomedayDig said:


> Someday...
> 
> I will, too.


Dig, I've had to let the need to ask for more details go to move on. God I know it's not easy and I think you are having a worse time than I am...You are really struggling though my friend and I am SO sorry about that. I really hate it because I understand that desire to ask and the pain that comes with the answers. Wish I could help 

The counselor made so much sense when I talked with him about this subject. It's done, it's over, I know the gory stuff already, and I already know a lot of the details, more details is just going to drive me crazy and make R that much harder. They really do have power over me and that's not good. I must take away that power.

I am coming to a place where I am accepting, not condoning, the fact that they did A-Z; Z being $ex. I already know so much and I know you do too that just getting more details is just going to hurt and prolong my pain. 

And, now the biggie..... I DON'T WANT THIS PAIN, I want my marriage to grow and I want to reconnect, to build this new marriage. Hanging on to all those details asking for more details is hindering that and my personal recovery, not just our recovery but my own recovery too. I guess I have to come to terms with, she did have $ex many many times, they had porn star $ex many many times, in the beginning of their relationship. He had help too, Viagra.

However, this is not the same woman who I have now, I have just learned this btw, she is different, better, wiser, and she is in love with ME, she is truly sorry and she is doing everything she can to make this up to me. She actually says she is more than happy to spend the rest of her life making it up to me. WOW! 

I cannot and will not compare myself with the OM anymore, that's apples and oranges a winner to a looser, a good man to a sorry man, a manly man to a sissy man a......ok I'll stop 

Because I am a man I have to share this part too....We have had porn star sex too since this happened. My wife is more than happy with our NEW $ex life, she says it's likes nothing we have ever had before and it's not. 

When we got a hotel for 3 days and I had my Cialis, yes I use it from time to time, we had $ex 4 times in one day so there! take that you POS OM..."falling off wagon here"..I know..I know not suppose to compare but what the hell, It's my post I can if I want to  ..ok back on the no comparing wagon.

In an odd twist..sometimes I feel like asking for details is like asking to be hurt, and hurt can be stimulating, even if it's bad, it's still stimulating. I have to be careful of that. 

When I wanted to ask about details yesterday, I simply said "I love you", we got pretty busy so that helped a lot. She even tried to share some details once and I said nope, don't want to know. I was just happy where we were right then and there.
Not to say I won't slip, but I am getting there, really getting there.

Take care all, heading to shower and then to see my images hanging in a gallery, very excited about that.


----------



## EI

Hey, it's not all about the sex! B1 and I, also, have a very lovely relationship outside of the bedroom. I have never once called it Porn Star Sex. I believe that someone on TAM referred to it that way. Geeeeez 


Logging off now..... gotta get busy!


----------



## B1

Badblood said:


> Letting go of the details is a bad idea, finding ways for the details not to bother you is a good idea. Trying to "let go", minimize or forget the details will only cause you frustration, because you are never going to forget them, they are a part of your thought processes, now. But, as your R progresses, the pain that the details cause, will lessen. Like the memory of an old injury. I remember breaking my arm playing middle school football. I remember how much it hurt, I remember what caused it, I remember all of the details, but they have no power to frighten me or cause me worry. See what I mean?


You raise a very good point Badblood, but I guess I should re-phrase that, "Asking for more details" is the real key. This continual loop of asking for more and more is just asking for more and more hurt and asking her to re-live the events over and over. At some point I have to say ok, I am done with asking..let's move on and completely focus on R.

If the counselor had it his way there would be no detail sharing at all. But we did this our way and I got the details, lots and lots of details, some I wish I didn't get, others helped me. Overall, I need to come to a point where I don't have this incessant need to ask for more. 

As far as the details I got, yes I need to learn to live with them.
My counselor was sexually abused by his father for a long time..he knew the details of that all to well, and he is fine with it today, they have no power over him and he has learned to live with it and not be bothered by them. I figured if he can do that, then I can surely do it also.


----------



## Badblood

betrayed1 said:


> You raise a very good point Badblood, but I guess I should re-phrase that, "Asking for more details" is the real key. This continual loop of asking for more and more is just asking for more and more hurt and asking her to re-live the events over and over. At some point I have to say ok, I am done with asking..let's move on and completely focus on R.
> 
> If the counselor had it his way there would be no detail sharing at all. But we did this our way and I got the details, lots and lots of details, some I wish I didn't get, others helped me. Overall, I need to come to a point where I don't have this incessant need to ask for more.
> 
> As far as the details I got, yes I need to learn to live with them.
> My counselor was sexually abused by his father for a long time..he knew the details of that all to well, and he is fine with it today, they have no power over him and he has learned to live with it and not be bothered by them. I figured if he can do that, then I can surely do it also.


B1, I think you have a pretty good handle on what is happening. Like I say in my timing thread, there will come a time when asking for details won't be a priority, when some other aspect of recovery will take it's place, perhaps some issue that EI is having will take precedence, who knows. I think the biggest dangers to R are rushing into it, and not dealing with all the aspects of it. Whatever issue you rug-sweep almost invariably comes back to haunt you. Taking your time and being thorough will get you farther, faster, than rug-sweeping or avoiding issues and trying to return to pre-affair behavior will.


----------



## CantSitStill

Hey Empty, I'm finally back..I get you so well..I held on to bitterness and resentment..yet couldn't see how much I was neglecting Calvin, I at first could not see any of my own faults in the marriage. I kept putting all the blame on him.. boy have I woken up and I have learned so much. Now I will no longer avoid conflict. I will never unplug from my marriage, I will always put Calvin first..before I ways put my kids first. I was so wrong about everything yet had no idea..anyway it's good to be back on TAM. Looking forward to talking to you more, you say things that I could of wrote myself.. it's nice to know someone who has been through this and really gets it. Funny when we first reconcilled I asked the same thing about guilt vs remorse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

I actually found myself getting angry yesterday evening around 10pm. But instead of attacking or asking questions on a old subject I went straight to bed. That didn't go over well, she knew immediately something was wrong. 

I had been focusing on the sex with the OM and had some tough questions, real questions, but knew it would just hurt me and be doing the same old thing. I just didn't want to get into it and hurt me and her, plus she was in such a good mood, singing and was happy as ever, I didn't want to ruin that for her.

Well, she came into the bedroom and immediately began to dig, she dug the question out and I faced it in tears. She gave me all the answers and she really truly helped me in a very hard time, she helped me understand something that I'm not getting into here because it's so personal and sexual in nature, but she made some very valid points and was right. I immediately felt better.

I am coming to a place where there not really bad days, but bad moments, and they are getting fewer, but there still their and I am sure now they will be for a while. But I have a wife that loves me like crazy and she is doing everything she can to make this right and she is really working hard to make this work, along with me of course.

I really do love her!


----------



## MattMatt

betrayed1 said:


> I actually found myself getting angry yesterday evening around 10pm. But instead of attacking or asking questions on a old subject I went straight to bed. That didn't go over well, she knew immediately something was wrong.
> 
> I had been focusing on the sex with the OM and had some tough questions, real questions, but knew it would just hurt me and be doing the same old thing. I just didn't want to get into it and hurt me and her, plus she was in such a good mood, singing and was happy as ever, I didn't want to ruin that for her.
> 
> Well, she came into the bedroom and immediately began to dig, she dug the question out and I faced it in tears. She gave me all the answers and she really truly helped me in a very hard time, she helped me understand something that I'm not getting into here because it's so personal and sexual in nature, but she made some very valid points and was right. I immediately felt better.
> 
> I am coming to a place where there not really bad days, but bad moments, and they are getting fewer, but there still their and I am sure now they will be for a while. But I have a wife that loves me like crazy and she is doing everything she can to make this right and she is really working hard to make this work, along with me of course.
> 
> I really do love her!


Thank God you both ended up at TAM.

As I have said before, when a spouse comes back to their wife or husband, that means they have chosen their spouse twice. 

That's one of the ways I got through my wife's affair. I told myself she had chosen her AP once, but she had chosen me twice.


----------



## CantSitStill

sounds like you're both healing, I cannot control when Calvin triggers but I do my best to help him when he does. The day I found out I got my new job I was so excited but that excitement got squashed with him triggering and it was a bad one. We both hurt but in different ways, like you two we are holding on to eachother for dear life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

> I really do love her!


And we know she really loves you too!


----------



## spudster

For men, the sexual aspect of the wife's affair is sometimes the hardest hurdle to jump. This is especially true if the wife performed sexual acts that she had never done or, prior to her affair, had refused to do with her husband. 

Some men cannot get past that particular aspect of the betrayal. It is even worse when the husband finds out from her that she did these things, and then she turns around and continues to refuse share herself sexually with her husband in the ways she shared herself with her OM. 

I hope this is not the case with B1 and EI. 

I would like to hear from some of the women on this forum why they think some WW would do this. You don't see this behavior in wayward men.


----------



## MattMatt

spudster said:


> For men, the sexual aspect of the wife's affair is sometimes the hardest hurdle to jump. This is especially true if the wife performed sexual acts that she had never done or, prior to her affair, had refused to do with her husband.
> 
> Some men cannot get past that particular aspect of the betrayal. It is even worse when the husband finds out from her that she did these things, and then she turns around and continues to refuse share herself sexually with her husband in the ways she shared herself with her OM.
> 
> I hope this is not the case with B1 and EI.
> 
> I would like to hear from some of the women on this forum why they think some WW would do this. You don't see this behavior in wayward men.


That's why I never, ever wanted to know any details about what my wife and the OM did. 

In fact, I actually suppressed that (even posting on TAM that I did not know if they'd had sex) but later something triggered a memory that made me realise I had been aware that they must have had sex, but I'd buried that memory really very deeply.

Not quite sure what hurt me more. The EA or the PA side of it.

Having to pretend that we were still a normal, happy loving couple to friends and family, that humiliated and crushed me.

Her mother knew, however, as she took me to one side and apologised about the "dreadful situation." She asked me to give her daughter some time and I said: "I'll give her all the time she needs. I love her." There was a pained and sympathetic expression on her face and she said: "I know you do. If only **** had not come back to the area!"


----------



## B1

spudster said:


> For men, the sexual aspect of the wife's affair is sometimes the hardest hurdle to jump. This is especially true if the wife performed sexual acts that she had never done or, prior to her affair, had refused to do with her husband.
> 
> Some men cannot get past that particular aspect of the betrayal. It is even worse when the husband finds out from her that she did these things, and then she turns around and continues to refuse share herself sexually with her husband in the ways she shared herself with her OM.
> 
> I hope this is not the case with B1 and EI.
> 
> I would like to hear from some of the women on this forum why they think some WW would do this. You don't see this behavior in wayward men.


Luckily for us this isn't the case, they didn't do anything we had not done. I have graphic and I believe honest details of there sexual encounters.
I know her very well and she will try anything I want, If I wanted to get a batman outfit and buy her a catwoman outfit I KNOW she would do that...If I wanted to try different positions again, I know she will. My problem was mostly with the amount of times with the OM and some pretty graphic questions regarding that, but it was nothing that we had not already done too. Actually, we have done more than they did. I just, unfortunately, stopped with the sex and other things long before the A started.


----------



## B1

MattMatt said:


> That's why I never, ever wanted to know any details about what my wife and the OM did.
> 
> In fact, I actually suppressed that (even posting on TAM that I did not know if they'd had sex) but later something triggered a memory that made me realise I had been aware that they must have had sex, but I'd buried that memory really very deeply.
> 
> Not quite sure what hurt me more. The EA or the PA side of it.
> 
> Having to pretend that we were still a normal, happy loving couple to friends and family, that humiliated and crushed me.
> 
> Her mother knew, however, as she took me to one side and apologised about the "dreadful situation." She asked me to give her daughter some time and I said: "I'll give her all the time she needs. I love her." There was a pained and sympathetic expression on her face and she said: "I know you do. If only **** had not come back to the area!"


Our counselor would be in your corner here, he doesn't believe in giving details at all. He wants us to focus on the here and now, and focus on healing and moving forward. He is a FIRM believer that the details will only hurt and could possibly ruin any chance of recovery. We chose, or I chose to ignore him and am dealing with the details as I know them. It's a mixed bag, some details helped while others ripped my heart out.

I still cannot say with any certainty what's better, knowing the details or not? I just know that I couldn't be in the dark completely and wanted to know. Then I wanted more and more..

I am finally learning to let them go..


----------



## MattMatt

betrayed1 said:


> Our counselor would be in your corner here, he doesn't believe in giving details at all. He wants us to focus on the here and now, and focus on healing and moving forward. He is a FIRM believer that the details will only hurt and could possibly ruin any chance of recovery. We chose, or I chose to ignore him and am dealing with the details as I know them. It's a mixed bag, some details helped while others ripped my heart out.
> 
> I still cannot say with any certainty what's better, knowing the details or not? I just know that I couldn't be in the dark completely and wanted to know. Then I wanted more and more..
> 
> I am finally learning to let them go..


Thanks, B1. You have now given me something else to think about. My wife dressed as Catwoman? Oooh, yeah!


----------



## spudster

betrayed1 said:


> Our counselor would be in your corner here, he doesn't believe in giving details at all. He wants us to focus on the here and now, and focus on healing and moving forward. He is a FIRM believer that the details will only hurt and could possibly ruin any chance of recovery. We chose, or I chose to ignore him and am dealing with the details as I know them. It's a mixed bag, some details helped while others ripped my heart out.
> 
> I still cannot say with any certainty what's better, knowing the details or not? I just know that I couldn't be in the dark completely and wanted to know. Then I wanted more and more..
> 
> I am finally learning to let them go..


What we imagined she did with the other man is always worse than the reality.


----------



## Badblood

spudster said:


> What we imagined she did with the other man is always worse than the reality.


Not necessarily so. We have had many WS on TAM that had far more extensive sexual activity with the OP than with their spouse. This just another issue that has to be dealt with. What I see here is rug-sweeping and minimizing. B1, you are right to ignore the counselors suggestion to avoid details. Remember that issues un-addressed, are issues that are still active, and can still cause problems for R. Only by addressing those issues can we truly eliminate their power to harm.


----------



## Badblood

BTW, B1, any counselor who advises you to ignore or "let go", of important issues or details, isn't worth what you pay him. Almost all counselors either on-line or IRL, who deal specifically with infidelity will advise "getting to the bottom", of your marital issues, and disarming the "mind movies", by facing them head on. I know this , because I dealt with a ton of the buggers.


----------



## CantSitStill

Hey it's been a while since I've seen an update you two...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

Awe..thank you CSS for asking...

We are doing well, Getting ready to go out to dinner right now. 

We are still both in IC and MC and that's going well. I still struggle with images and mind movies, anger seems to have subsided with maybe a small melt down once a week or so. More than anything I still hurt and cry about every other day, usually I will trigger from something here on TAM that I will read about. Or I will trigger off something my wife will say about the A. 

My wife is doing everything possible to make this up to me, she is sorry really truly sorry, she is transparent, I find myself checking up on her less and less. I know she loves me, really loves me and wants this R to work. She knows it's a tough road for me, the hurt is still pretty raw sometimes. 

We still talk a lot, throughout the day and when I am home. The whole Affair still dominates our talks. We are starting to cover more subjects but overall this subject has most of the focus. 

heading out to dinner now....will post more later.


----------



## calvin

betrayed1 said:


> Awe..thank you CSS for asking...
> 
> We are doing well, Getting ready to go out to dinner right now.
> 
> We are still both in IC and MC and that's going well. I still struggle with images and mind movies, anger seems to have subsided with maybe a small melt down once a week or so. More than anything I still hurt and cry about every other day, usually I will trigger from something here on TAM that I will read about. Or I will trigger off something my wife will say about the A.
> 
> My wife is doing everything possible to make this up to me, she is sorry really truly sorry, she is transparent, I find myself checking up on her less and less. I know she loves me, really loves me and wants this R to work. She knows it's a tough road for me, the hurt is still pretty raw sometimes.
> 
> We still talk a lot, throughout the day and when I am home. The whole Affair still dominates our talks. We are starting to cover more subjects but overall this subject has most of the focus.
> 
> heading out to dinner now....will post more later.


Ya'll going out for dinner or supper?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Sounds like you two are doing about the same as us..the triggers Calvin gets usually happen when he's at work and starts thinkin too much but I have hope we will get better. Hoping the same for you guys..glad to have found you guys here..enjoy your evening 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## spudster

It took me divorcing my wife and two years of therapy to get over the anger and hatred I had for her. Could not imagine how hard it would have been if I was still living with her.


----------



## calvin

spudster said:


> It took me divorcing my wife and two years of therapy to get over the anger and hatred I had for her. Could not imagine how hard it would have been if I was still living with her.


I have my moments but I implode,I dont know what I'd do if CSS was'nt here with me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jh52

B1 -- I got this post/definition of forgiveness from another friends thread and I thought I would post it here in hopes that it may help.

************************************************
I just wanted to thank morituri who posted this reply several weeks ago. I kept coming back to it, re-reading it and finally understanding why I haven't been able to rid myself of the bitterness I felt. Deep down in my heart I was unable to forgive and until I can do that the hurt will continue to eat at me...

These are his words:

What is forgiveness?

For a great many people, it means amnesty for the offender and of the consequences that would befall him/her. The problem with this definition is that it makes the offender the beneficiary while the offended getting nothing in return.

But to others, myself included, forgiveness means to accept - not condone - that what was done cannot be undone and to make peace with it, NOT for the benefit of the offender but for the benefit of the offended. This type of forgiveness does not remove the consequences that would befall the offender.

People who subscribe to the former definition of forgiveness are unable to achieve it because it is an emotionally daunting task. It is also dependent on the offender showing true remorse to the offended for his/her transgression(s) which may or may not be present or ever will be.

But those of us who subscribe to the latter definition, forgiveness is an acknowledgement that no matter what the outcome of the situation with the offender is, that in order for us to move on with our lives is to make the decision that anger and bitterness are the toxic twins that will forever follow us and poison our lives IF we consciously allow them to. Here, forgiveness is a conscious choice for the benefit of the offended, not the offender.

*******************************************


----------



## CantSitStill

jh52 said:


> B1 -- I got this post/definition of forgiveness from another friends thread and I thought I would post it here in hopes that it may help.
> 
> ************************************************
> I just wanted to thank morituri who posted this reply several weeks ago. I kept coming back to it, re-reading it and finally understanding why I haven't been able to rid myself of the bitterness I felt. Deep down in my heart I was unable to forgive and until I can do that the hurt will continue to eat at me...
> 
> These are his words:
> 
> What is forgiveness?
> 
> For a great many people, it means amnesty for the offender and of the consequences that would befall him/her. The problem with this definition is that it makes the offender the beneficiary while the offended getting nothing in return.
> 
> But to others, myself included, forgiveness means to accept - not condone - that what was done cannot be undone and to make peace with it, NOT for the benefit of the offender but for the benefit of the offended. This type of forgiveness does not remove the consequences that would befall the offender.
> 
> People who subscribe to the former definition of forgiveness are unable to achieve it because it is an emotionally daunting task. It is also dependent on the offender showing true remorse to the offended for his/her transgression(s) which may or may not be present or ever will be.
> 
> But those of us who subscribe to the latter definition, forgiveness is an acknowledgement that no matter what the outcome of the situation with the offender is, that in order for us to move on with our lives is to make the decision that anger and bitterness are the toxic twins that will forever follow us and poison our lives IF we consciously allow them to. Here, forgiveness is a conscious choice for the benefit of the offended, not the offender.
> 
> *******************************************


I like this
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

CantSitStill said:


> Sounds like you two are doing about the same as us..the triggers Calvin gets usually happen when he's at work and starts thinkin too much but I have hope we will get better. Hoping the same for you guys..glad to have found you guys here..enjoy your evening
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sometimes my thoughts get me at work also. I have mentioned this before to EI. They are fleeting thoughts,images and movies that will hit me out of the blue. At work I can usually handle them and work through them. They are fleeting and don't really get hold of me like other times, like while driving or when I am at home. 

I think at home I will actually allow them in a little more because I am home and it's safe here to be angry or cry, plus I have EI here to help me through them, yes, the person who caused this pain is actually the one helping me through the pain. That's just the way it is. I would be a mess without her, far more of a mess if I had left her and was trying to work through this alone.


----------



## CantSitStill

Yes see this is the problem, when he's at work it's so hard for me to help him, when he is home yes he depends on me, the one who betrayed him is the only one he can count on to help and emotionally support him. Sucks for you guys I know and I am so so sorry. If only I could turn back time and have never of gotten a hold of my my ex, if only I had done the right thing and dealt with our issues instead of running away from them. I am sure Empty feels the same way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

jh52 said:


> B1 -- I got this post/definition of forgiveness from another friends thread and I thought I would post it here in hopes that it may help.
> 
> ************************************************
> I just wanted to thank morituri who posted this reply several weeks ago. I kept coming back to it, re-reading it and finally understanding why I haven't been able to rid myself of the bitterness I felt. Deep down in my heart I was unable to forgive and until I can do that the hurt will continue to eat at me...
> 
> These are his words:
> 
> What is forgiveness?
> 
> For a great many people, it means amnesty for the offender and of the consequences that would befall him/her. The problem with this definition is that it makes the offender the beneficiary while the offended getting nothing in return.
> 
> But to others, myself included, forgiveness means to accept - not condone - that what was done cannot be undone and to make peace with it, NOT for the benefit of the offender but for the benefit of the offended. This type of forgiveness does not remove the consequences that would befall the offender.
> 
> People who subscribe to the former definition of forgiveness are unable to achieve it because it is an emotionally daunting task. It is also dependent on the offender showing true remorse to the offended for his/her transgression(s) which may or may not be present or ever will be.
> 
> But those of us who subscribe to the latter definition, forgiveness is an acknowledgement that no matter what the outcome of the situation with the offender is, that in order for us to move on with our lives is to make the decision that anger and bitterness are the toxic twins that will forever follow us and poison our lives IF we consciously allow them to. Here, forgiveness is a conscious choice for the benefit of the offended, not the offender.
> 
> *******************************************


I am plagued still by mostly hurt, pure raw hurt. Sure, I have my moments of anger but they are far and few between compared to the hurt I feel most days. I keep reading about bitterness, anger being the bad stuff, and yes I have been angry, very angry, just had a bout the other day, but it's over in 10-15min.
EI just sat there and took it, came to me took off my glasses and hugged me until I broke down.

Anger, according to our counselor, for the most part is really many other emotions, scared, insecure, hurt, fear, etc. for me it was insecure that time and off course my old friend hurt. 

Hurt is the demon I am fighting with most of the time.


----------



## calvin

betrayed1 said:


> Sometimes my thoughts get me at work also. I have mentioned this before to EI. They are fleeting thoughts,images and movies that will hit me out of the blue. At work I can usually handle them and work through them. They are fleeting and don't really get hold of me like other times, like while driving or when I am at home.
> 
> I think at home I will actually allow them in a little more because I am home and it's safe here to be angry or cry, plus I have EI here to help me through them, yes, the person who caused this pain is actually the one helping me through the pain. That's just the way it is. I would be a mess without her, far more of a mess if I had left her and was trying to work through this alone.


Yes,the one that caused this is the one I need when I trigger,I cant get over the irony on this
 but as Beowulf said I can go it alone and still trigger and deal with it or I can have a wife here who loves me and helps me heal.
Work is bad for me,too many bad memories.
At home I feel a hell of a lot better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

jh,yep thats good reading.Read it quite a few times.
Thanks again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## theroad

The devil is in the details.

A BS deserves to know the whole story to the level that is needed by them. Only the BS can determine their level of detail needed.

Once every question has been answered it is then time to no longer to talk about the affair. Yes once a question gets asked and answered. The next thing is the BS usually will re ask the question slightly different to get clarification and or to see if the answers match up. That is part of the trust building that is the recovery process.

Also as questions get answered the gained knowledge causes new questions to be thought of and the need for more answers. 

Example:
Was there sex?
Yes
What do you mean sex?
Penetration.
Were condoms used?
No.
As you see then there becomes the need to talk about STD, pregnancy.

Continued talking about the affair is akin to always ripping the scab off. The wound will never heal. So when the WS's answers have proven to be truthful and they are no longer leading to new questions the need for talking about the affair is done.

However when I have known BH's to go 30+ years dwelling on their WW's affair because they never got to talk about their WW afffair and have been left with their questions left unanswered. This has been an elephant in the middle of the room that both the WW and the BH ignore.

So WW and the BH struggle all those years in a poor marriage.

One thing is I have never seen or remember a post from BW's still carrying on about unanswered questions about their WH's affair.

It's only the BH's that never can let the affair rest because their questions were never answered.

Not every BH has wanted to talk about their WW affair. There have a been a few that did not know there WW was doing an OM. They only found out when there WW told them the had an affair and it was over. Their only response to their WW was is it over, are you going to leave me.

When these few BH got a yes then followed by a no. They never mentioned the affair again. They refused to talk about it. This action by these BH left these WW unsettled. For here are WW being told that they must be honest with and not trickle truth their BH if they want to recover their marriage.

These WW believed that their BH's refusal to discuss the affair was going ruin their attempt to recover their marriages. Why was their BH refusing to follow form.

The thing is not every BH needs to ask more then is the affair over are you going to leave me. This is also the other end of how the BH controls how much he needs to know.


----------



## B1

theroad said:


> The devil is in the details.
> 
> A BS deserves to know the whole story to the level that is needed by them. Only the BS can determine their level of detail needed.
> 
> Once every question has been answered it is then time to no longer to talk about the affair. Yes once a question gets asked and answered. The next thing is the BS usually will re ask the question slightly different to get clarification and or to see if the answers match up. That is part of the trust building that is the recovery process.
> 
> Also as questions get answered the gained knowledge causes new questions to be thought of and the need for more answers.
> 
> Example:
> Was there sex?
> Yes
> What do you mean sex?
> Penetration.
> Were condoms used?
> No.
> As you see then there becomes the need to talk about STD, pregnancy.
> 
> Continued talking about the affair is akin to always ripping the scab off. The wound will never heal. So when the WS's answers have proven to be truthful and they are no longer leading to new questions the need for talking about the affair is done.
> 
> However when I have known BH's to go 30+ years dwelling on their WW's affair because they never got to talk about their WW afffair and have been left with their questions left unanswered. This has been an elephant in the middle of the room that both the WW and the BH ignore.
> 
> So WW and the BH struggle all those years in a poor marriage.
> 
> One thing is I have never seen or remember a post from BW's still carrying on about unanswered questions about their WH's affair.
> 
> It's only the BH's that never can let the affair rest because their questions were never answered.
> 
> Not every BH has wanted to talk about their WW affair. There have a been a few that did not know there WW was doing an OM. They only found out when there WW told them the had an affair and it was over. Their only response to their WW was is it over, are you going to leave me.
> 
> When these few BH got a yes then followed by a no. They never mentioned the affair again. They refused to talk about it. This action by these BH left these WW unsettled. For here are WW being told that they must be honest with and not trickle truth their BH if they want to recover their marriage.
> 
> These WW believed that their BH's refusal to discuss the affair was going ruin their attempt to recover their marriages. Why was their BH refusing to follow form.
> 
> The thing is not every BH needs to ask more then is the affair over are you going to leave me. This is also the other end of how the BH controls how much he needs to know.


Good points made here. I can tell you that I have gotten all the gory details, I have asked the questions that led to other questions then asked them again but in a different way to clarify as you mentioned.

I am about questioned out right now, I think I have them all answered. I don't find myself wondering anymore if this..or that. If I do I ask, usually though, my wife will pick up on the fact something is bothering me and she will ask me what's wrong. You see, I find I will ponder on the question long before I will ask it, and if my wife is around she will pick right up on it and we will confron it. She has no problem answering my questions, she will answer to here best ability and though cringe, she will give me the details. we covered much of this way early on in this R.


----------



## B1

It's 2 months now since Dday#2.

I have to say things are going well. 
We still talk about the A and issues daily.
We had some very tough and serious talks just yesterday that led to tears and both parts. We talked through it as usual.
We are still both in IC and MC.
I have found that IC is really helping, far more than I thought it would. I had serious doubts it would help me.
She hurts because of the A also, because of what she did. I don't think I let this sink in until recently.

We are dealing with ALL the issues. She has, for the most part, overcome her bitterness towards me for how I
rejected her, Yes the WS has issues to overcome too, normally this is all part of R, dealing with not just the
A, but issues prior to the A also. We ARE dealing with both. Guilt drives her to remind me of my actions pre-A.
I have learned to read her when it comes to this, she feels horrible about what she did, she knows the choice she made
was wrong in so many ways, but guilt will cause her to say, but you rejected me etc. you all have read enough about my poor actions
pre-a so I won't go into it again. She will quickly within minutes though, bounces back, hold me say she's sorry, usually with tears, and say she loves me and how sorry she is. She doesn't feel saying sorry is sufficient though.
It's not easy for the WS either. She can't take it back, she did it, she's responsible for her actions and those actions hurt her now too. So many times she has said "If only I could turn back time."


The horrific mind movies and images are better, not gone, but not near as frequent as a few weeks ago.
Time does help heal, but we CANNOT let time erase the issues without addressing everything, sometimes over and over. We still have to face the issues that trouble us and our marriage. 
I still cry every few days, usually triggered by something.
The hurt doesn't seem to be sitting there just waiting to poor out. I have moments throughout the day when it's like that but it's not always there like before.
My questions and digging are all but gone. I had probably one or two questions in the past week.
I trigger daily but seem to be able to control them fairly well.
I am still troubled more about the physical aspect much more than the emotional aspect of the A. Even though others and EI will tell you the emotional part is the most dangerous.
I feel confident we are on the road to a successful R.
I feel confident my wife loves me.
I know I love her.
I trust her much more now. I have not checked up on the computer or phone logs in a while. 
I still find, however, that I don't trust 100% yet. 
She is still completely transparent, making sure I know her passwords to everything.
She tries to wait until I'm home before doing much, she feels like if she is out while I'm at work I will worry. 
She is very sensitive about her time away from me and lets me know everything when it comes to time. 
We will absolutely renew our vows.


----------



## jh52

CSS posted today that triggers get worse around 6 months after DD and R began.

Not sure where she heard this -----

CSS -- where did you get this info ?? Did your therapist shared thi sinformation with you ??

B1 -- not something that you and EI wanted to hear. But just wanted to make you away of this -- because that will be between Thanksgiving and Christmas for you both -- which is normally stressful enough.


----------



## B1

jh52 said:


> CSS posted today that triggers get worse around 6 months after DD and R began.
> 
> Not sure where she heard this -----
> 
> CSS -- where did you get this info ?? Did your therapist shared thi sinformation with you ??
> 
> B1 -- not something that you and EI wanted to hear. But just wanted to make you away of this -- because that will be between Thanksgiving and Christmas for you both -- which is normally stressful enough.


I am sure the holidays may very well be tough. Especially since over the 2011 holidays she was seeing the OM. I am confident we can deal with this though, it's all part of the R process. I am scared though I can't lie. I don't like hurting, it's not fun.


----------



## happyman64

betrayed1 said:


> I am sure the holidays may very well be tough. Especially since over the 2011 holidays she was seeing the OM. I am confident we can deal with this though, it's all part of the R process. I am scared though I can't lie. I don't like hurting, it's not fun.


B1,

Knowing what you now know about yourself and your wife I hope you will conquer your fear.

You both love each other. You have both hurt each other as well as yourselves.

And you both found each other again. In my mind that is the best present I could ever hope for the two of you as the holidays approach later this year.

Conquer that fear. I am sure EI has that fear as well. Comfort her to lessen those negative feelings.

And love each other like tomorrow is the last day on earth.

Keep working on it my man. You sound great and very positive about your marriage.

HM64


----------



## CantSitStill

I remember Beo saying he got really bad around 6mo.. I did post that, yesterday but don't remember where I posted that
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

We have had some intense talk’s theses past few days. I don't want anyone to think that R just happens, instantly and overnight or that it's so easy. We have been talking a lot about remorse, saying sorry and covering those topics in great detail. It's got us both upset to the point we just stop talking about it for a while at times. Then we will start back up on it because we must address it. 

We turned a corner this morning in these talks. Only saying this because there is so much more that goes on behind the scenes that's not posted
her on TAM for everyone to see. That even though we may post some good stuff that good stuff comes from talking and communicating, it doesn't come from ignoring or skipping over an issue. This is hard, I mean really really hard work and it can be very frustrating, hurtful and of course it can make you angry too. We have both been pushed to the edge a few times the last few days. But you know what, we didn't fall off, we fought our way back to more solid ground.

This morning I got an "I'm sorry" like no other, yes she's sorry, yes she has said sorry, but I never felt 100% about it, I never felt it was as genuine as it should be, this morning she did it, she said the words I have been longing to hear, in a way I wanted to hear them. Perhaps it was just me wanting to hear them a different way, perhaps it was some of her holding back a bit but this morning she didn't hold back. 

She made it clear that this person here today with me, in my kitchen,
is so sorry for what she did. That she chose to do this, no buts... just an I'm sorry B1 for making this choice. There is obviously a LOT more to this, TAM is only getting the slimmed down version of what our talks were about. We still have to work on this, making amends, me forgiving etc. but we made progress today real progress and it made be happy. 

I could not do this and go through this if I did not love this woman with all my heart. And I think It's safe to say she couldn't and wouldn't do this unless she really loved me too.


----------



## happyman64

B1

Not all BS's can stick R out. The same goes for WS's.

I am glad you both made the decision to move forward with your marriage.

There is no greater feeling when you find the spouse you married again!

Keep working at it everyday. That is what marriage is really all about.

*Committment....*


HM64


----------



## SomedayDig

B1...Regret and I do the same things as you and EI. We go through so much here at home about the affair and the after effects. Not all of it is shared on TAM. It doesn't need to be. 

Just know that there are a lot of us out here behind you guys and like HM64 said, it's all about commitment!


----------



## cpacan

B1, this was a good post. I like


----------



## B1

Yesterday evening was tough. EI is starting to show some minor signs of depression, I hope it's only temporary, she's just had several bad days in a row. I triggered bad too last evening, and was hurting pretty bad, so you had two people both in tears for the evening. Hopefully today is better, so far it's a good start.

This is really hard work, it takes determination, patience, understanding and of course loving each other.


----------



## Almostrecovered

Almostrecovered said:


> if I had to be a bookmaker here and set the odds on what would happen if you stayed:
> 
> 1.1 to 1: affair starts up again and goes underground (if it isn't already underground right now), maybe in another year or three, she finally leaves you
> 
> 150 to 1: She stays NC but rugsweeps and never admits fault or works on the marriage or helps you heal, marriage stays lackluster sexless and overall crappy. Maybe a fleeting moment of happiness here and there but overall pure limbo and hell. You try your best to be a great husband but it never works as it takes two to make a marriage work.
> 
> 1000 to 1: she makes a miraculous turn around and really changes and becomes the wife you always wanted, takes full blame for the affair and does everything you need to heal.
> 
> (Odds are based on this particular situation, not overall R attempts)


shoulda bet on the longshot, coulda made a boatload


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## EI

Almostrecovered said:


> shoulda bet on the longshot, coulda made a boatload


Awww.... That was very sweet. Thank you very much! You are one of those TAM members who provide honest, constructive, and invaluable advice on this forum. I'll admit that when I originally read the comment of yours that you quoted, it hurt my feelings. But, truth be told, I feared, at the time, that you might have been correct in your assessment. But, I knew that your comment was without malice. Comments like that, and from several other good people like you, brought out my fighting spirit and desire to prove you wrong. B1 was fighting for me and for us and I decided to do the same. I realized that we truly do "choose" our behavior and our reactions. B1 and I work at this every day. It isn't always easy, but it is sooooo worth it. I truly feel so blessed to have this second chance with this amazing man that I love with every ounce of my being. And, I will never, again, doubt that he loves me, too! He shows me every day what true love looks like. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Empty Inside said:


> Awww.... That was very sweet. Thank you very much! You are one of those TAM members who provide honest, constructive, and invaluable advice on this forum. I'll admit that when I originally read the comment of yours that you quoted, it hurt my feelings. But, truth be told, I feared , at the time, that you might have been correct in your assesJsment. But, I knew that your comment was without malice. Comments like that, and from several other good people like you, brought out my fighting spirit and desire to prove you wrong. B1 was fighting for me and for us and I decided to do the same. I realized that we truly do "choose" our behavior and our reactions. B1 and I work at this every day. It isn't always easy, but it is sooooo worth it. I truly feel so blessed to have this second chance with this amazing man that I love with every ounce of my being. And, I will never, again, doubt that he loves me, too! He shows me every day what true love looks like.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Did anyone ever tell you that you're a good writer? I love reading your posts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

CantSitStill said:


> Did anyone ever tell you that you're a good writer? I love reading your posts.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you, CSS, my high school English teacher did, in fact, like my creative writing pieces.... especially, when we got to choose what we wanted to write about! 

Did anyone ever tell you that you are one of the sweetest, kindest, most encouraging and inspiring ladies on TAM?


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## B1

Almostrecovered said:


> shoulda bet on the longshot, coulda made a boatload


wow..just saw this. Thank you AR, Yes
you should have bet on the long shot  EI has been doing everything she can and more and so have I. We are both committed to make this R work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Coldie

What's interesting when reading this thread, I see Warlock as the ultimate forum member that shows nothing but tough love. So much so that at the beginning he is totally ignored by the EI, while getting more likes than any other responder. Eventually, as she begins to feel remorseful, she begins to acknowledge warlock, even if he just says a few words, "Deleted FB?" 

To be able to answer warlock imo, is to know you are on the right track. It's almost like a TAM accomplishment. If you are not remorseful, everything warlock says is like holy water to the devil, you just want to pretend it doesn't exist. His tough love is so on point, but harsh. 

Another interesting part of the thread for me was her final lash out, "He didn't want me to wear the sexy outfit because I weighed 104 pounds."

This is the type of thing every cheating spouse does. Across the board. This is probably the type of thing she could say to the OM and he would sympathize with her, give her a shoulder to feel sorry for herself on, take advantage of her, and in return get put on a pedestal while using her -- a married woman. The OM is a piece of garbage. She was a married woman and he knew it. He ruined his own marriages and almost helped ruin hers. Pure garbage. A parasite imo.

However, her husband's response was beautiful. "I won't add to the negative things she has said or done to me in the last 30 years, because the list is long, as is the list of all the good things she did too." Beautiful. As a cheater, she amplified everything he ever did wrong. Some women cheat and literally feel like their husbands "raped" them one night when they had sex once and they weren't really in the mood. Of course the OM hugs them and says, "Oh he is so awful, how could he?!?!??!" It's just a game and these negative moments get rewarded with attention. And attention, or lack there of, is what caused all of this. The good, the bad, whatever, it all comes down to attention. She was getting attention, which is what she was dying for. The more bad things she said, the more attention he gave her. The OM was a parasite. 

We all have a long list of negative things that have happened to us in marriage, things that have been said to us, things that if I dwell on the negative, would amplify x 1000000000 and my marriage would look awful. I don't think there is a marriage on earth over 5 years that doesn't have good and bad moments. It's why it's part of our vows. When in the fog, the negative is easier to see, the positive disappears.

This is a good thread with so many good lessons, especially regarding the roller coaster of emotions, the blame, the victimization, the anger, the love.... Just a good thread.

*edit. Sorry I did not know this one wasn't still active. I replied on page 25, not 55. I figured that since the other thread EI made had this link in it multiple times, this was the thread that was still active.


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## farsidejunky

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