# Law Givers and Law Breakers



## RaceTrack1975

I read something once where there is a type of relationship (can be marital, parent/child, etc.) where there are two main parties: law givers and law breakers. This works in such as a way as someone is always having to seek forgiveness and declare his/her "mea culpa" (Latin for my fault). This creates inequality because the law giver can change the rules without notice and can always find something to complain about. "You left the milk out ... you ruined my shirt ... you haven't fixed the ... when are you going to ... why did you ... why didn't you ..., etc." This is a terrible cycle! How do you get out of it? I think telling the person, "Gee, I think you create inequality in our relationship by always finding fault with me" probably won't cut it. So ... any suggestions?

:surprise::frown2:


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## EleGirl

From experience, the first step is for the 'law breaker' to not buy into this dynamic and do not seek forgiveness and or declare his/her "mea culpa".

There is a book that talks about this sort of thing:

Games People Play: The Basic Handbook of Transactional Analysis by by Eric Berne

This sort of game can only go on if both parties participate. When one party refuses to participate, the game ends.


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## RaceTrack1975

Good advice and I will buy this book. But, on a practical note based on not participating, let's say someone is giving me grief about some project or another that I haven't undertaken yet or really getting upset because I accidentally squished someone's sandwich that was in the fridge waiting for tomorrow's lunch. What do I do?


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## Edo Edo

Hi Racetrack. 

In my marriage, my wife would be the law giver and I'd be the law breaker (I'd say this is true about 90% of the time). Short back story: Before I met my wife, while we were dating and through our engagement, I had some hobbies/activities that would be considered "gray area" by many (probably the two most gray are playing poker in the casinos and using cannabis). I was, however, upfront and honest about this by the our second date because I knew these were deal breakers for some people. I also made it clear to her that I had no intention of stopping this and explained to her the ways I was safe and responsible with these activities. She replied that she didn't care for this but barely acknowledged them and hardly tried to confront me about them. However, very soon after we were married, she tried to give me the line, "Now that we're married, you can't do X." Well that just wasn't going to fly, and I was simply upfront / honest again and told her so. I made it clear that if she had a problem - and these were real deal breakers, she should have been honest from the beginning. But she wasn't and I'm not changing now. She...was...mad... Really mad... We fought for awhile (weeks even...). But I stuck to my guns and when she saw she wasn't going to win this fight, she decided her best option was to compromise. And she did.

My point is be a man and just be honest and upfront about what you are doing and why. If she has a job for you to do that is #1 on her priority list, but #5 on yours, tell her, explain why, and let her know that you'll get to it as soon as you are able (try to give her an ETA, if possible, but still stick to your guns). Never threaten or be aggressive (that's abusive) but show a little conviction when you do it. She still may not agree with you, at least she'll respect your decision-making process and give you some space to complete your tasks. Don't slink around with your shoulders slumped asking for forgiveness. Women don't respect that - and she'll just keep nagging you the way your mother would... Plus, it's way better to have a short disagreement upfront than a long drawn out nagging/arguing period...


[Note: Use this method if you actually have other things to do or a legitimate point to make with your wife. If you are just trying to slack off or be irresponsible, this method will only lead to future arguments.]

Good luck!


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## Mr. Nail

My mother in law was a law giver. Fortunately I didn't live with her. My method was to nod and say that's interesting, nevertheless, I do it this way.


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## sokillme

My wife an I are partners. What you describe doesn't sound healthy.


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## Blondilocks

Take responsibility for your actions. You haven't started a project because.... You didn't realize the sandwich was there - "would you like for me to make you another one? In the future, protect the sandwich."


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## EleGirl

RaceTrack1975 said:


> Good advice and I will buy this book. But, on a practical note based on not participating, let's say someone is giving me grief about some project or another that I haven't undertaken yet or really getting upset because I accidentally squished someone's sandwich that was in the fridge waiting for tomorrow's lunch. What do I do?


Out of curiosity, how long has the project gone undone? What is the project? This could make a big difference on whether or not the "law giver" not really giving a law at all but rightly upset.

But if we assume that some important project was not put off for a long time and that of course the squashed sandwich was an accident, do what @Blondilocks says.

And if you do take responsibility and the "law giver" keeps accusing, attacking, etc., just tell them you are sorry that they are so upset. And then walk away. Do not play the game.


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## arbitrator

Blondilocks said:


> Take responsibility for your actions. You haven't started a project because.... You didn't realize the sandwich was there - "would you like for me to make you another one? In the future, protect the sandwich."


*Not if it was one of those famous "crap sandwiches" that my "lawgiver" RSXW often served up with zeal and pleasure! It was pretty much either her way or the highway, and "her money" greatly dictated policy!

So glad that I don't have to fastidiously dine on those nasty-a$$ed things anymore!*


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## RaceTrack1975

Yeah, good advice all around. I started reading "Games People Play" and it is really interesting. Edo Edo touched on this when he said, "My point is be a man and just be honest and upfront about what you are doing and why." Not doing this is what the book calls a cross transaction which leads to communication breakdown in all manner of relationships. In short, I need to work on keeping communication on an adult-adult field instead of allowing myself to slip into a child role. This may mean I say something like, "I will make another sandwich. We have plenty of bread/sandwich things, but I am not having this conversation right now. Maybe we can talk about it when you have calmed down." Thanks.

I cannot control her or anyone else, but I can control my reactions to them. just the first few chapters of this book have made me realize why my communications get so messy. I need to stop slipping into the child ego state.


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## chillymorn69

EleGirl said:


> From experience, the first step is for the 'law breaker' to not buy into this dynamic and do not seek forgiveness and or declare his/her "mea culpa".
> 
> There is a book that talks about this sort of thing:
> 
> Games People Play: The Basic Handbook of Transactional Analysis by by Eric Berne
> 
> This sort of game can only go on if both parties participate. When one party refuses to participate, the game ends.


great read!


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## RaceTrack1975

EleGirl said:


> From experience, the first step is for the 'law breaker' to not buy into this dynamic and do not seek forgiveness and or declare his/her "mea culpa".
> 
> There is a book that talks about this sort of thing:
> 
> Games People Play: The Basic Handbook of Transactional Analysis by by Eric Berne
> 
> This sort of game can only go on if both parties participate. When one party refuses to participate, the game ends.


Refusing to play is the issue: how to do it. I think I need to explore that. One could have an outburst of emotion, which is what a child would do. One could say, "I'll make another sandwich, but I'm not having this conversation right now." I know what I normally do. Not really an outburst, but I let myself get upset.


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## SimplyAmorous

> This works in such as a way as someone is always having to seek forgiveness and declare his/her "mea culpa" (Latin for my fault). This creates inequality because the law giver can change the rules without notice and can always find something to complain about. "You left the milk out ... you ruined my shirt ... you haven't fixed the ... when are you going to ... why did you ... why didn't you ..., etc." This is a terrible cycle!


 I think it goes a long long way to own our mess ups.. and apologize when we haven't done something we should.. or go that extra mile for our spouse when we can... these *little things* cause appreciation to spring within us (or it should)... I do not find this dynamic in our marriage... we are a team.. we want to help each other... 

Though...back in the day, there were times I bordered being on the "demanding" side... the sorry thing was... I really didn't need to be... he was on board with me all the way anyhow.. ..I just needed to grow up some....

Sometimes he would say to me... "Yes Dear"... not because he was being a doormat.. it was his way of speaking: "you are pushing it baby"... as he knew I didn't like him saying this to me...I would go over to him and lightly pound on his chest...telling him "don't say that"....I didn't want to come off like that.. barking off orders... it simply wasn't necessary any way! He hasn't said that to me in a long long time.. so yeah... that's a good thing.

I've learned through his example.... he's surprised me on occasion in how much feeling he has had with wanting to make things right.. even if I understood why he was in a lousy mood (stressed at work for example), where he may have blurted something out in a moment... then later he comes to me needing to make it right... saying I didn't deserve that... such things stand out in my memory.... it's very heartwarming and always draws us closer...


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## Affaircare

I see it as walking a fine line: yes, it is reasonable and mature to take personal responsibility for yourself, your actions and your choices. Not is it not reasonable to take responsibility for other people's feelings, for accidents, or for other people in general really! LOL 

So let's use the sandwich as an example. Let's say that the "facts" of situation are that she made a sandwich for her lunch tomorrow, and you opened the refrigerator, didn't look, and set a gallon of milk on it--destroying the sandwich. It wasn't intentional, but in your super introverted "absent-minded professor" way, you just didn't see the sandwich there. 

She chooses to be mad about it, and chooses to blame you for her anger. Now partially she may be doing this to reinforce her power over you or put herself back into a place of feeling powerful. But make no mistake those are HER choices. She *could* see the smooshed sandwich under the gallon of milk and laugh! Or she *could* choose to find it charming that you were so deeply engaged in (whatever) that you completely missed the sandwich! That's not all--there are many other options she could have chosen other than getting angry and feeling upset! It is NOT reasonable for you to play the game of taking responsibility for her feelings or her choices. She bears that all on her own, and from snippets here and there it sounds like you are beginning to see what's on HER side and what's on YOUR side. 

It's also not really necessary to explain. See...if you threw a razor through the air and it slices her arm, she wouldn't want you to explain why the razor was flying--she'd want you to grab a towel, get a band aid, call 911, etc. Explaining is on the weak side...demanding an explanation is exerting "power over" again. So I don't think it's necessary to explain WHY you crushed the sandwich if the intent was good and it was an accident. If she assumes you "did it on purpose to hurt her" that shows where HER mind is at, not yours! 

Thus, I would say it is reasonable to state your own choices, your own thoughts and feelings, and ask for what you need from her to make it right with you. You could even be the bigger man and ask her if she would ask you for what she needs rather than demanding! For example, if she says: " (@[email protected]#$_) @RaceTrack1975, you smashed my sandwich under the milk carton! You did that on purpose just to make me mad! You jerk!" (I'm summarizing, but that's the gist, right?) You might say, "The sandwich was an accident, but I am not okay with you jumping to conclusions and calling me names because of it. I am more than willing to take responsibility and make you a replacement, but I need you to speak to me respectfully or take a time out. Are you willing to do that?" 

When you respectfully ask someone for what you need, you have to bear in mind that they are free to say no! If they aren't free to say "no" (and mean "no"), then it's a demand and not a request! So if you ask for what you need, and she says "no" then the next thing you ask is "What are you willing to do?" In this instance: "You're not willing to speak to me with respect or take a time out? Then what are you willing to treat me as your equal partner and not your underling?" 

In a weird way, it may help to think of how you might interact with someone at the bank or a co-worker at work who's equal to you. You wouldn't put up with a temper tantrum, a fit of anger, or name calling in a professional environment, and those are people you don't LOVE who don't say that they LOVE YOU!! Then why would you accept that from a loved one? Stepping back and thinking of the equal power objectively can sometimes help pinpoint when it's a power play and when it's just honest sharing.


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