# How to deal with the anger...



## nice777guy

Guess I'm in the "anger" phase at the moment.

How do you keep from sending them constant e-mails, telling them how badly they've messed everything up?

How do you keep from telling the kids that the family will never go to disney again because Mommy prefers to hang out in bars with strange men?

How do you keep from sending them a text once every hour with another lousy statistic about the correlation between teen pregnancies and divorce?

How do you keep from posting "Anybody know where my wife is? Kids are trying to call so they can tell her sorry ass goodnight..." on Facebook. (seems to bother me a lot more than it bothers them).

Literally, how do you keep this from getting the best of you?

Right now, a little anger might be useful. But not the kind that makes you grumpy with your kids. And not the kind that makes it hard to focus while your at work. Or makes you want to say stupid things that usually just make "you" look like the jerk.

I'm sure I'll feel better tomorrow...after I flatten her tires and piss in her mail slot.


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## nice777guy

Nevermind...just remembered something I came across awhile ago that might just help...

How to Make a Voodoo Doll - wikiHow


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## GoDucks

I don't know this answer... You're ahead of me on the path.

However, there is a popular country song you might identify with, called "I'll Pray For You". 
YouTube - Pray for You - Jaron and The Long Road to Love

Right now, my therapist is talking to me mostly about the kids, and preparing me (I think) to separate... About doing them the least harm. So, I guess my answer is to really try to remember what the kids are learning right now. If you are angry in your "outside voice", then they will have to take sides, which isn't fair. They only have the two of you.


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## nice777guy

Thanks Mr. Duck. Cool avatar thingy btw.

I am very angry - but I'm not taking it out on the kids.

And yes - heard the song before! Need to post that to my FB page!

I actually think the voodoo doll might be somewhat therapeutic. I don't really "think" it would work, but it sure would be fun trying to find out.

Plus a great conversation piece for those times she comes to the house to get the kids.


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## nice777guy

And actually, so far, my kids have been pretty resilient.

Its lousy to say this, but my wife basically checked out of the house about 3 years ago to start nursing school. I think the kids are much more used to her being gone than around.

Truly amazes me. I can understand a woman falling out of love with her husband, having problems with her mother, finding a new set of friends - but her willingness to move out of the house without a fight over the kids just - I truly don't get it. I used to see it as some kind of moral victory that I stayed and kept them with me, but now I think (and maybe this part is good) that we BOTH got what we were looking for when she decided to move out and not fight for them.


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## 2Daughters

One must go through the 'anger' stage in order to move on young grasshopper, but seriously, I found through my '3 months' of being separated that the angry, resentment stage has brought me the least stress of all, in fact, it has my stbxw, texting and emailing me about family issues, whereas before I got absolutely nothing in terms of communicado from her, so it helps me, and makes her act different, I like this new angry me..for the time being.


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## MEM2020

It is really helpful to try to postpone thinking about her/this situation until you are ready to work out. Thinking about it then produces a more intense workout generating more endorphines which help a bit with the pain. 

Really sorry man. You deserve so much better than this.





nice777guy said:


> Thanks Mr. Duck. Cool avatar thingy btw.
> 
> I am very angry - but I'm not taking it out on the kids.
> 
> And yes - heard the song before! Need to post that to my FB page!
> 
> I actually think the voodoo doll might be somewhat therapeutic. I don't really "think" it would work, but it sure would be fun trying to find out.
> 
> Plus a great conversation piece for those times she comes to the house to get the kids.


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## nice777guy

Going to need a lock of her hair...


Trying real hard to make light of this right now. Its 1:30 here, I've got to get up at 6 and I'm nowhere near tired. No alcohol tonight because I know it actually makes it harder to get good rest. Just folded some laundry; 

I might need to just go offline for a few days; sometimes typing things out here really helps, and other times I think it just allows me to sit and stew and obsess;

kids both have birthdays this month; kind of hard because I have two girls; I mean I wouldn't let one of my girls go to a slumber party with just some separated dad that I'd never met; and I hate the idea of them having a party at her apartment - none of their **** is there and it ISN'T THEIR HOME;

and of course its 4th of july weekend - i guess this is when we start splitting up the freakin' holidays; sounds real "joyous";


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## Scannerguard

Niceguy,

Why were you expecting a fight on the kids? It seems you were let down that she let you have them.

The reason I ask and am engaging you on this is you can think of me as your wife by proxy. (except I'm a dude).

I didn't fight my wife for the kids and it has driven her up the wall.

But here's the way I see it. . .and it's probably cold in a way but here's the breakdown of what the non-custodial parent loses in a divorce:

1. Their home (home will default to the kids, unless house needs to be sold)
2. 23-35% of after tax income. That hurts.
3. Perhaps tack on alimony on top of 2
4. 24/7 access to kids
5. Perhaps health insurance/health care

What is the 1 thing your wife and I gain? Because in life there is always an "exchange" - you don't lose something for nothing.

The answer: Freedom.

So. . .why would I, in light of the above, want to barter away the 1 and only thing I get in divorce? 

Freedom to start that new business? Freedom to marry the kind of woman I should have married in the first place? Freedom to call up my kids (1,2 or 3 of them) and say, "Wanna see The Karate Kid?

I engage you on this subject because my wife, during one her fits, said, "My attorney has said he's never had a case like this. . .where hte husband isn't fighting for the kids." They frankly don't know what to do . . .they are entirely off kilter and keep trying to bring me to a 50/50 split.

But again, selfishly. . .why?

Finally, non-selfishly. . .having talked to my kids (13,7, and 2, obviously I didn't talk to the 2 year old). . .they don't really want to be schlepped around anyway. They want to be in their home. If anything, they want what I wanted. . .for me to come in and parent 2-3 nights/week (do baths, homework, make lunches) in *their* home, not my bachelor/your wife's bachelorette pad.

Maybe someday when I remarry or I can settle down some and get myself together financially I can create a second home for my kids but right now I take the following legal and moral philosophy:

*The kids are entitled to 1 home in divorce, not 2. *

They are sick of sleeping on the floor at my place, having no friends, none of their toys, etc. and frankly, I don't blame them. Let them have their childhood in their home.


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## nice777guy

Scanner -I'm a bit confused. Please read and clarify what you are suggesting. Think we are on the same page, but not totally sure. Only 3 hours sleep last night, so please be patient.

Letting them stay in their home is exactly what I'm doing. And I'm staying there with them until I'm given good reason to leave. If my wife and others can PROVE to me that its in my children's best interest for my wife to have custody, and therefore also get the house, then I will do whatever is in their best interest.

What upsets me is that while the "wife/husband" bond isn't necessarily a natural bond and is often broken, I always thought that "mother/child" bond was one of the strongest forces in the universe.

I want the kids and the house and I'm a damn good parent. My wife - so far - seems to want freedom to go out to bars and spend all of her time on the computer. 

Not to mention the fact that my wife is "disabled" and could not properly care for anything larger than a small apartment.

Its just another example of how she is no longer the woman she used to be - the one that took great joy playing with them when they were little, took lots of pictures, planned birthdays a month in a head, etc., etc, 

Smallest one had a mild fever the other night (before all hell had broken loose). Wife had been staying at the house - we were giving it a shot. But she needed a "break" that night and went back to her apartment for the evening.

My "old" wife wouldn't have left a kid with a mild fever to go to the grocery store.

It breaks my heart and pisses me off.

And I'll choose "family" and my children over "freedom" any day.


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## notreadytoquit

This is so hard, I can understand. I am still going through the anger phase on certain days. Except my H is now acting so nice you would think we are not getting a divorce. That bothers me but I try not to show it in front of him. From one end you would think he is waking up from his fog but on the other hand he goes and tells me to buy whatever small appliance I need for my new apartment in Canada since things are cheaper here(so he can say later he was fair to me). The rest of the time I spend with the baby, playing and laughing with him, taking him to the park etc.

But we did come to some agreement on the parenting plan and our lawyers are looking at it right now just to make sure we are protected from a legal standpoint. I think you should try to work out something like this with your wife regardless whether you are doing legal separation or going for the divorce.

I found that writing on this forum helps me a lot(people are probably sick of hearing from me). Taking a walk also helps me to. Talking to friends also helps but lately I have noticed that almost none of them call anymore.

Just ordered the rest of Harley's books. Can't wait to get them and read them.


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## WantsHappiness

You could always try singing I Feel Pretty – YouTube - Adam Sandler - I Feel Pretty - Anger Management

On a serious note I too want to say that I’m very sorry for what you’re going through. There will be brighter days, not that hearing it helps.


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## nice777guy

Quick update - I'm still pissed...

Thanks for listening.


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## Scannerguard

No, we are on the same page I think too.

If my wife would let me in *our* house, I would do anything to help out. . .honestly, I would. I would go out of my way (within in reason - $1700/month in household support mandates I have the *freedom* to work)

Every divorce situation is different; it's just that your complaint as the custodial parent seems to be ringing a familiar bell - the "Why isn't he/she a more involved parent?"

I do my best to go to soccer, baseball, and basketball games and attend music concerts. If she would let me into the house (and I haven't been violent - sometimes a little obnoxious but never violent and I would behave myself), I would help her co-parent.

It's just that my stb-x was under some "pre-divorce" fantasy that Dad/Hubby was 

A. Going to get his own place within a few blocks.
B. Pay a healthy child support check and
C. Share 50/50 in child-rearing time while somehow magically reconciling B & C (you can't make money and raise kids at the same time unless I do Daddy Day Care)

The thing was I was that Mrs. Doubtfire guy before we separated - a very involved father. I think everyone was expecting me to be like Robin Williams only to find out I am more happy being Pierce Brosnan and not pandering to my kids affections like Robin Williams' did.

See what I mean?

And that is frustrating her, her family, and her attorney.

But that's my right and it's the only thing I get. I lost my family and home. Grasp the gravity of that for a second. . .the only thing I get is freedom.

All I can say is on some level I identify with your wife (but not if you are opening up your home to her and she's still not wanting to co-parent - I can't identify with that).

I am essentially starting out with a bachelor pad when I get on my feet. . .it's no place for kids. They should be in their home.

Now, does that mean they never come over? Of course not. . .I just don't want her to harbor any fantasy that divorce results magically into 2 equal homes. 

It doesn't.

I'll tell her the same thing I told you - if you aren't up to being the custodial parent (and no shame in admitting it), then perhaps you should revisit the subject with your ex. I offered that to my ex - I'll severely curtail my career and I'll raise the kids and you can pay me alimony and child support (she made more than me).

You can probably guess how far that offer was entertained.

So here we are - I get freedom and she gets all the other things.

That's the "exchange" - the "tit for tat".


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## Scannerguard

BTW, if you dont' think it sucks, absolutely sucks, that sometimes, while yes, I can take a nap (when I am not working) and she can't because she has the kids that I can't just be in their home with them, just have that day-to-day interaction she has, well, you are mistaken.

Your wife is suffering on some level but I am unsure of her problem. Sounds like clinical depression to me.


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## nice777guy

Scanner - gotcha.

I guess I'm assuming that most women/mothers would fight harder than most men/fathers. Women are the caring nurturers - dads fix stuff and go to work. Women carry children 9 months and suffer through labor - dad's tell the mom when to push, fetch ice chips and maybe cut the chord. Women breast feed - men use bottles.

I think you are right about depression or "something". So for me its not only that I want to be Robin Williams - I really actually do - its also that my Sally Field has possible mental health issues.


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## Brewster 59

nice777guy said:


> Thanks Mr. Duck. Cool avatar thingy btw.
> 
> I am very angry - but I'm not taking it out on the kids.
> 
> And yes - heard the song before! Need to post that to my FB page!
> 
> I actually think the voodoo doll might be somewhat therapeutic. I don't really "think" it would work, but it sure would be fun trying to find out.
> 
> Plus a great conversation piece for those times she comes to the house to get the kids.



If it does work I waaaant one. Also let me know what you find to help you through the anger stage.


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## Scannerguard

Yes, biologically speaking, the two of you seem to be acting in reverse. . .she seems blah-zay (sp?) about tending to the kids and you are nuturing.

Perhaps, NiceGuy, it has to do with some of your maritial dysfunction. I think men have almost sometimes stepped up too much in the parenting role in marriages leaving women bewildered. She knows you are going to fulfill the nuturing role so she's letting you.

Maybe you need to set the boundary a little better - say. . .listen. . .you got kids here. . .woman up and start acting like their mom or I'm splititng them up becuase I can't do it by myself.

(which was common years ago - when a widower was left with children often the brothers and sisters went to live with various family and friends)

And don't give her an inch on child support - you make sure you go after her and let her at least learn that part of being a responsible non-custodial parent.

She's got money for booze in the bars - she's got money for her kids. Let a judge come down hard on her and have her wake the hell up and woman up and have her paycheck attached.


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## GoDucks

I want to hijack this string and ask Scanner some question... A couple of sentences on my background:

My H treats me badly. The kids see it, and I have to change my situation. However, he won't go. I have even told him that we will figure out how to have 2 homes together. He won't budge. The reason I'm still here is SOLELY because of the kids.

How do you get through your evenings without the kids?


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## Brewster 59

Scannerguard said:


> Yes, biologically speaking, the two of you seem to be acting in reverse. . .she seems blah-zay (sp?) about tending to the kids and you are nuturing.
> 
> Perhaps, NiceGuy, it has to do with some of your maritial dysfunction. I think men have almost sometimes stepped up too much in the parenting role in marriages leaving women bewildered. She knows you are going to fulfill the nuturing role so she's letting you.
> 
> Maybe you need to set the boundary a little better - say. . .listen. . .you got kids here. . .woman up and start acting like their mom or I'm splititng them up becuase I can't do it by myself.
> 
> (which was common years ago - when a widower was left with children often the brothers and sisters went to live with various family and friends)
> 
> And don't give her an inch on child support - you make sure you go after her and let her at least learn that part of being a responsible non-custodial parent.
> 
> She's got money for booze in the bars - she's got money for her kids. Let a judge come down hard on her and have her wake the hell up and woman up and have her paycheck attached.


Hmmm, either you are reading things wrong or I am. First of all if I am reading things right she doesnt have a job. Second of all she is more than happy to let NG work, pay the bills, and take care of the kids while she does as little as possible and goes home to her apartment if things get hectic.

The good news for NG is she actually set precident when she got her own place 3 years ago that didnt include the kids. From what I read NG has been the primary caregiver for 3 years. 

So NG would have a good shot of getting primary custody of the kids. NG has a good shot of keeping the family home and may even be able divert payments on her share of the equity and in some cases not even have to pay her until the kids become of age at which time the house would sold and the equity divided.

NG would be entitled to child support which would at least negate alimoney and actually may be more than the alimoney she would be awarded. NG probably would no longer have to pay for her apartment. The courts main concern is the children.

The Judge may even order NGs wife to look for work. I think in this case where property, kids, assets, child support, alimoney, disability, are issues NG needs an attourney.


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## nice777guy

Scanner and Brewster - I think you guys both have parts of this right, which is why my head is spinning;

Small clarification - she's only been out of the house for 7 months now. As Deejo has pointed out to me, I've allowed her to establish a certain lifestyle level that I "might" be required to help her maintain. However, from what I understand, child support is REQUIRED in my state and would likely offset any alimony. There are also tax benefits to paying alimony, and I would not have to pay taxes if she paid me child support. So, I might have to pay her $100 a month and get a tax break, and then get $150 back in child support that would be tax free. 

Also, most people seem to agree that its best to go without attorneys first. I don't think I could get a judge to require her to attend rehab and look for work unless I got a little nasty and we used separate attorneys; let me know if I'm wrong;

Scanner - my hangup for pushing her to take more responsibility with the children is that I'm not sure that its in the kids' best interest, but I think I see where you are coming from; the MC has suggested she may ask for custody solely to get child support, and to let her have them if she does - and then start documenting all the times she asks for help;


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## nice777guy

GoDucks said:


> I want to hijack this string and ask Scanner some question... A couple of sentences on my background:
> 
> My H treats me badly. The kids see it, and I have to change my situation. However, he won't go. I have even told him that we will figure out how to have 2 homes together. He won't budge. The reason I'm still here is SOLELY because of the kids.
> 
> How do you get through your evenings without the kids?


Is taking them with you an option? I would be very careful about leaving the house without them.


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## Brewster 59

nice777guy said:


> Scanner and Brewster - I think you guys both have parts of this right, which is why my head is spinning;
> 
> Small clarification - she's only been out of the house for 7 months now. As Deejo has pointed out to me, I've allowed her to establish a certain lifestyle level that I "might" be required to help her maintain. However, from what I understand, child support is REQUIRED in my state and would likely offset any alimony. There are also tax benefits to paying alimony, and I would not have to pay taxes if she paid me child support. So, I might have to pay her $100 a month and get a tax break, and then get $150 back in child support that would be tax free.
> 
> Also, most people seem to agree that its best to go without attorneys first. I don't think I could get a judge to require her to attend rehab and look for work unless I got a little nasty and we used separate attorneys; let me know if I'm wrong;
> 
> Scanner - my hangup for pushing her to take more responsibility with the children is that I'm not sure that its in the kids' best interest, but I think I see where you are coming from; the MC has suggested she may ask for custody solely to get child support, and to let her have them if she does - and then start documenting all the times she asks for help;


Well my friend most of us here are going through this same hell in different degrees with different circumstances. What to do is confusing for most of us.

I will tell you I found taking some tylenol pm helps me with the sleeping problem. I take it about an hour before I want to go to sleep and not to late at night.

Deejo gave you an excellent run down on mediation vs laywer.
With mediation being good if both parties are amiable and there is not a lot to fight about. If your looking at a custody battle your definetly going to have to laywer up and mediation will be mandated at least it is here. One thing I know for sure is the courts #1 concern is the children. 

Usually the primary caregiver is given the family house to live in and a good amount of the family income as It is definetly cheaper to live on your own than to raise children.

Not quite sure why the MC recommends letting stbx have custody but she might try to get it cuz then she will get alimony, and child support and probably the family home to live in. 

One thing is for sure this divorce crap is about a lot more than emotions and it is the worst hell a person can go through IMO.


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## Scannerguard

Niceguy, 

No, don't go it totally alone without an attorney. At the very least, you need to be advised, 1 -2 hours. Yes, you don't have to make it contentuous and appear in court with dozens of motions and cross-motions but you need to be advised.

I think Brewster probably has it just about right but you need to hear it from a licensed attorney.

It's not as simple as "alimony negates child support" and she walks away.

No. Nadda. Zilch.

Alimony nowadays is only usually offered as a temporary set-up until the other spouse can get back on his/her feet or if there is a wide discrepancy in incomes like you are a famous cardiothoracic surgeon and she is a housewife.

YOu aren't to support your lame-brain spouse the rest of her life because she wants to be a drunk. And if you don't like what I am saying. . .well. . .all the more reason to have an attorney repeat what I just said to you in plain English.

When you are divorcing, you aren't thinking straight and your attorney is there to think for you.

So any offset would generally only be applied for 3 years at the most usually if let's say you made 75K/year and she made 20K part time.

Point is no judge is just going to let her walk away and say, "Well. . .nice knowing ya. . ." She at least has to send you a damn check every week even if it's a little to start.

See my point? No judge is going to certify such an arrangement unless you totally agree to it, which why should you? What's in it for you?

She can at least get a damn job and send some child support towards you or offer to watch the kids and you pay her instead of daycare. . .make some reasonable offer on the table.

Remember. . .this is a business transaction. Treat it as such.



> My H treats me badly. The kids see it, and I have to change my situation. However, he won't go. I have even told him that we will figure out how to have 2 homes together. He won't budge. The reason I'm still here is SOLELY because of the kids.
> 
> How do you get through your evenings without the kids?


Okay, I may jump around a bit on this answer but that's exactly what I wanted - to have 2 homes together and maybe going as so far as to "trade" when we were with the kids.

My kids, esp. my oldest, saw how I was treated badly by my ex and was even to the point of apologizing for her behavior towards me.

My idea of parenting in the home is for her to exit 80-90% of the time or at least be in her master bedroom studying for her masters when I am there doing baths, homework, and making lunches. SHe could certainly go to the library to study, get a haircut, food shop, go out with friends, something. In other words, be "nanny-dad" at times.

Anyway, to answer your question - it was difficult at first but you get used to it. I don't know - the mind is a funny thing. I am embarrassed to say sometimes I go through the day and then at the end I sort of remember. . ."Oh yeah, I have children" :embarrassed:

And when she brought her boyfriend in within a few months, I was really threatened and depressed. Now, I dunno. . .I am kind of confident that no matter how lame of a father I may be, I am still their father and the boyfriend can't compete.

I am not sure if I am skirting your question but I guess the answer is - what choice do I have? I did know this before I left her so I knew the consequences. I guess I also focus on the fact that it's a lot of damn work and I am off the hook on that since she won't let me in @ nights/weekends to participate.

Maybe I am being irresponsible (she would say I am) but again, I'm not schlepping them around various nights of the week. Just not doing it now until I am stable. I have decided my relationship with my sons is changing and I am taking a more long term view.

My circumstances are kind of extenuating also in that I have a wide variety of ages - 13, 7, and 2. The 13 and 7 year old don't really want to come with Dad because the whole time is about the 2 year old. I happen to agree with them.

I don't think visitation/parenting time should be like "serving a sentence".


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## Scannerguard

Sorry I'm venting here. . .it's just bringing up the history of my divorce.

I can remember at first I offered for her to keep the equity of the house (we have a significant amount - 6 figures) locked in and when the kids were older (1rst or 2nd went off to college), then i would take a payout %age (my take is somewhere between 38-45%).

She could then downsize or go live happily ever after with her boyfriend.

Because I was getting the benefit of growing equity and being at a good spot on the amortization table (we are paying mostly principle now), I was willing to even pay a little more in child suport (tack on a little alimony).

I only asked that I could use the house nights and maybe 1 weekend/month to be with the kids.

Her response:

No, it's my house.

Don't want you here.

It's mine.

So that offer is gone. (my attorney wasn't crazy about it anyway)

But really, why should have I expected any different? She was totally an unreasonable/uncompromising person in marriage - why should she do an about-face in divorce?

So now she's stuck parenting 95% of the time.

Frankly. . .this is how you will have to deal with your opposition at times - hardball. 

Pitch them in fast, hard and up around their head to get their attention you mean business.

I just told my attorney to toss aside any negotiation letters from her attorney. They are meaningless and I am not responding at $225/pop.


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## nice777guy

OK guys - just to make sure I'm giving you the right info...

My wife is "disabled" - collecting disability income; in theory, this isn't temporary; realistically, there are times when I understand it and think "this makes sense - I would never employ her" and other times when I think she should be working in some capacity;

my concern about the bars relates to the MEN more than booze; the issue isn't that she's a lazy drunk, but that enough doctors have said she is unable to work;

So - in my head - we have about $20k liquid; lets modify my example and say I pay $150 in maintenance due to a permanent and uncontrollable difference in income; but assume she pays me $100 a month in child support; I'll get a tax break on the $150 I pay out, and pay no tax on the $100 I get in; so, I might actually be sending a net of about $35 out the door each month when all is said and done;

So, using numbers that would be anywhere CLOSE to these, I can't really justify spending $10k to have a lawyer convince a judge that my wife should be seeking employment just to avoid paying a net $35 to her each month;

And kind of reversing things a bit - it seems like calling her out on her disability would be the "right" thing to do, but is it worth $10k to do so, especially when I have no guarantees?

And of course if I hire a lawyer, and she hires one to prove she isn't a fraud, won't we just end up pissing EVERYTHING down the toilet?

Is my thinking way off here? THIS is exactly why I need at least a one hour consult;

Thanks again for the help guys. Have a great holiday weekend.


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## Affaircare

Could I make a weird suggestion? Right now there are three or four NiceGuy threads (cause he was having a particularly bad week!): "Do PlanA/PlanB even apply?" "I'm in PlanB (aka Plan FU)" on the infidelity forums and then the two here: "How do I deal with anger?" and "How do I get an attorney?" People are replying to all four and different advice is flying left and right! Could I suggest ONE thread? It just makes it easier to follow along a little. 

I'm cool with picking one here in "Considering Divorce" cuz you are! Could we maybe "re-direct" the other three to come here? If so, I can help ya add that redirection, NiceGuy.


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## Brewster 59

Scannerguard said:


> Niceguy,
> 
> No, don't go it totally alone without an attorney. At the very least, you need to be advised, 1 -2 hours. Yes, you don't have to make it contentuous and appear in court with dozens of motions and cross-motions but you need to be advised.
> 
> I think Brewster probably has it just about right but you need to hear it from a licensed attorney.
> 
> It's not as simple as "alimony negates child support" and she walks away.
> 
> No. Nadda. Zilch.
> 
> Alimony nowadays is only usually offered as a temporary set-up until the other spouse can get back on his/her feet or if there is a wide discrepancy in incomes like you are a famous cardiothoracic surgeon and she is a housewife.
> 
> YOu aren't to support your lame-brain spouse the rest of her life because she wants to be a drunk. And if you don't like what I am saying. . .well. . .all the more reason to have an attorney repeat what I just said to you in plain English.
> 
> When you are divorcing, you aren't thinking straight and your attorney is there to think for you.
> 
> So any offset would generally only be applied for 3 years at the most usually if let's say you made 75K/year and she made 20K part time.
> 
> Point is no judge is just going to let her walk away and say, "Well. . .nice knowing ya. . ." She at least has to send you a damn check every week even if it's a little to start.
> 
> See my point? No judge is going to certify such an arrangement unless you totally agree to it, which why should you? What's in it for you?
> 
> She can at least get a damn job and send some child support towards you or offer to watch the kids and you pay her instead of daycare. . .make some reasonable offer on the table.
> 
> Remember. . .this is a business transaction. Treat it as such.



Ok let me put a qualifer in here. In my state alimoney is paid when there is a wide discrepancy in income between the spouses. The lenght of time it is paid is dependant on the lenght of the marriage. Here a spouse can get temporary ailimoney if the marriage was 10 yrs or less. If the marriage was over 10 yrs lifetime ailmoney can be awarded.

SG, I think you are right in the fact a judge wont say go away to either spouse what they will do is award an alimoney amount and an amount of child support to the primary child caretaker.
Since NGs spouse has no job and I assume is collecting disability she would probably be awarded alimoney but if NG is the primary caretaker she will be required to pay child support which would probably be a wash.

NG, if you want to try without a laywer to start with I would pay a paralegal to process the petitioners paperwork its kinda a lot of paperwork and you will need your income and expenses, what property you own, what liquid assets you have and where they are located, 3 months of pay stubs, Once the paperwork is properly filled out you will have to serve the respondant and obtain proof of service. Once you have proof of service you file the paperwork and your wife the respondant will have 30 days to respond to the settlement plan you offer if she accepts it will be an uncontested divorce, if she fails to respond within 30 it will be an uncontested divorce and after 6months the divorce becomes final. If she does not like your settlement offer she will file respondant papers and you can either go to a mediator, make a settlement together, get attournys, and appear in court for the start of the real fun. Anyhoo thats how it works here


----------



## Needy_Wife

nice777guy said:


> Scanner - gotcha.
> 
> I guess I'm assuming that most women/mothers would fight harder than most men/fathers. Women are the caring nurturers - dads fix stuff and go to work. Women carry children 9 months and suffer through labor - dad's tell the mom when to push, fetch ice chips and maybe cut the chord. Women breast feed - men use bottles.


You are absolutely right about this...for some woman. When something as innocent as a playground "tiff" occurs, the mama bear comes out in me. But then you see the moms out there that aren't even watching their kids. Some women don't have that "bond" or "natural instinct". 
Right now, my stbx and I share 50/50. I have the boys Mon, Tues...he has them Wed, Thurs...and then I have them Fri, Sat, Sun. Then the schedule reverses back to him having them Mon, Tues. Right now, that is what is working for us. 
I know what you mean about that anger stage though. Seems like I go through it every other day.


----------



## nice777guy

Brewster - that's exactly what I was trying to say - I'm just not sure if I'm right. 

We have 15 years together. By my estimates, she would need about $300 per month to continue her current lifestyle as it is - but I would think some "concessions" would be expected if we get divorced - no more "as is" for anyone. Per my state's childcare calculator I found online, it looked like she would owe me about $200 per month in child support.



Affaircare said:


> Could I make a weird suggestion? Right now there are three or four NiceGuy threads (cause he was having a particularly bad week!): "Do PlanA/PlanB even apply?" "I'm in PlanB (aka Plan FU)" on the infidelity forums and then the two here: "How do I deal with anger?" and "How do I get an attorney?" People are replying to all four and different advice is flying left and right! Could I suggest ONE thread? It just makes it easier to follow along a little.
> 
> I'm cool with picking one here in "Considering Divorce" cuz you are! Could we maybe "re-direct" the other three to come here? If so, I can help ya add that redirection, NiceGuy.


I really did start off with two different questions. I "think" I'm mostly done in the Infidelity section. But I "think" the Anger is different than my legal questions, although the legal questions have overtaken the Anger thread.

But just to let you all know, I'm still pretty pissed.

Going to go listen to some loud music and have some fun - enjoy some rare time alone at home with no wife, kids, or dog. Picture Tom Cruise in Risky Business...except I'm much cuter and I'd treat Katie Holmes the way she deserves to be treated!!!


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## Brewster 59

I totally think that is a great deal for her, her making a cut of 300 with the income she has now is waay to generous, maybe throw in some assets as comp? whatever if your ok with that offer think about it for a while, pay an attourney for his imput, the one thing it does is save you paying a laywer to rep you, you wont have to go to court except once. I really think if you can verify what you write you have waaaaay more cards than you see. OHHH and if your better loooking than Tom Cruise, man dude you may even get yourself a sugar mamma LOL


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## nice777guy

I said $300 is what she would "need" - this is by no means what I would offer. We would ALL be required to make sacrifices.

And I don't quite get the 50/50 idea if 3 of the 4 people (1 parent / 2 kids) stay in one place.

And the Tom Cruise thing may have been a "slight" exaggeration...


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## Brewster 59

Hmmm I might of been trying to use a bit of levity on the Tom Cruise thing I was kidding as I thought you were.

I actually thought you were a miracle worker if you found a way to keep everyones boat a float with her only making a $300a month sacrifice. 

The 50/50 community property law totally sucks but with having kids to take care of there are ways around them if you are the primary caregiver. First of all remember the primary caregiver is going to probably live in the family home until the children reach their majority.

Bottom line is divorce will effect every family member negatively except maybe the person who really wants it and thats a big maybe. Sorry if I upset you.


----------



## Scannerguard

Okay, I am a little lost but I guess I get what you are saying with paying an attorney to save you $35.00/week.

Listen. . .I am just saying go to an attorney for advice and run what you said by him/her. . .you can't take our word for it. It's about $275-350/hour and it's money well spent.

If she is disabled and on SSI along with perhaps a supplemental employer based disability policy, she is still to send in some money towards child support.

And no, as cruel as it perhaps sounds, if you are divorcing, I am not sure it's your responsibility to support your disabled wife through alimony while you raise the kids.

I know what you are saying about doctors testifying she's disabled. 

Let me guess - a bad back, right? 

Yet she is able to use her back in bed to screw around right?

She's apparently able to go into bars and use her arms to lift a beer to her lips, I would think she could hobble into an office and punch keys on a computer and answer phones? No?

I mean, you can't enable this kind of stuff. Now, that being said, if she's willing to provide child care and you pay her for that at a fair child care rate in your area, I think you could entertain something like that.


----------



## nice777guy

Scanner - agreed about the attorney. I can't assume that anything I read on the internet is 100% true and not book will give me clear answers to my specific circumstances.

Wife has fibromyalgia and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome.


----------



## Scannerguard

Uh huh, as a DC, I know all about FM/CFS. It's a combination of a depressive disorder, sleep disorder and pain disorder with absolutely no objective test (blood work, MRI, etc) to back it up. 

And our nation has a lot of people on SSI with FM/CFS because we have people who hurt and apparently can't work and we have to support them.

I don't want to belittle people with this genuine disorder. .. I have seen it where people get mowed down by this and they have no ulterior motive but I"m sorry - it's not like your wife got hit by a Big Mack truck and has a spinal cord injury or something like that.

She's tired, she's got achey joints, I get that. . .I'm sorry - then you take your meds, visit the chiropractor, whatever gives you pain and mobility management and you get a job. And I am sure any provider worth their salt would encourage her to work. Work is therapeutic. You enable and worsen any disease process when you sentence them to sit around on their duff.

It's not up to you to provide her with alimony.

YOUR ATTORNEY: "Her joints apparently don't ache her enough to make her way down to the local watering hole, your honor. Her energy level is apparently good enough to have sex with another man, your honor. All of the sudden she had energy for that - fatigue lifted, huh?. Her fatigue level I am sure isn't helped by the consumption of alcohol, is it your honor?"

I mean, you have money for alcohol (and maybe cigarettes since the two go hand in hand), then you have money for you kids and you don't need alimony.

I am already seeing a pattern with your stb-x and you need to tell an attorney so you have someone thinking straight for you.

OF course, this is family court - you can't really dispute her disability status but I think a family court judge isn't going to be too sympathetic to her parental circumstances and obligations and entitlements from the marriage that is dissolving.


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## Scannerguard

I should have been a TV Judge 

"You see this foot, Niceguy's wife? You see it? It's going in your tookus!"


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## nice777guy

Scanner - what is DC?

I actually feel pretty good about most of this as long as we don't turn into the War of the Roses. And I totally agree that I need that consult - free or not.

I'm not trying to defend her disability - that's another thread for another board.

If I look at this as a business transaction, *I see no logic in spending my money on an attorney to reduce her income*. Do you agree?

Also - to repeat - I don't see that alcohol is a problem - its the *GUYS* at the bars - and on the internet - that I don't like. I have no *proof* that she has slept with anyone - I've seen enough to know its time to move on, but I couldn't convince a judge that she's out having sex with other men.

I *DO* have copies of some of her disability application papers stating that she can't care for the kids and the house without significant help from me and her mother. I actually see her being disabled as a major bargaining chip. She can take care of her apartment, and watch the kids a few hours each day after school, but she CAN'T - in her own written words - care for the kids and the house on a full time basis. We KNOW I can, because I've done it for the last 7 months.

Other things to consider - if she's forced to go back to work, we have to add in childcare expenses - she watches them while I work right now. I would have to start using vacation on days with no advanced warning to my employer when I have sick kids. Right now, she stays with them if they are sick.

As long as she isn't insane, she will do whatever she can to stay out of a courtroom and away from a judge. And I will remind her of that as often as I need to.


----------



## Affaircare

nice777guy said:


> Scanner - what is DC?


 Doctor of Chiropractics. Scanner is a chiropractor, NiceGuy.



> I actually feel pretty good about most of this as long as we don't turn into the War of the Roses. And I totally agree that I need that consult - free or not.


NiceGuy just so you know, I consider lawyers much the same as I consider doctors. NO ONE on the planet knows you or your situation as thoroughly as you do. Thus they may be experts, and they will give you the best advise available if they have the relevant facts...but in the end YOU know you and every fact, and in the end, it's your decision and your life. 

Thus, I suggest learning as much as you can about the divorce laws in your state--for informational purposes. I suggest that you actually plug in real numbers and look up any available calculators, for child support (CS) and alimony. Find out how your state figures out alimony--most states have some sort of formula. Knowledge is a shield here. 

Next, I recommend that you be honest and fair. The object is to remember that YOU are the one thinking of the future for the children and what would be best for them--she is only thinking of getting everything she demands or *thinks* she's entitled to. So after you've put in some real numbers, you can make a fair offer--even if it's for "here are my intentions from this point forward in the separation until it becomes legal." This will set a precedent. 

Next, you agree to as much as you and do it in writing. This is where a mediator might be of assistance, offering REALISTIC, neutral options. It's very typical for a woman in your wife's position who's been unfaithful to unrealistically expect to get "the house, the kids, the cars, alimony, CS and all the stuff in the house" and just slide the OM in. Then life gets real and she realizes the house may be sold, she get 1/2 time with the kids at most, she gets the car...and the debt with it, she doesn't qualify for alimony, and CS is not enough to live on...and she only gets 1/2 the stuff in the house. So see what I mean? Why pay an attorney $300/hr. to do these kinds of negotiations: "Who gets the $30 porcelain bird?" No, agree to that yourselves or with a mediator. 

When you're getting somewhat closer -OR- when she is being utterly stubborn and will not budge from her entitlement demands, then you would engage YOUR attorney to either review what you've done so far with suggestions to tighten it up...or to speak to HER attorney to encourage his client to GET REAL!! 



> If I look at this as a business transaction, *I see no logic in spending my money on an attorney to reduce her income*. Do you agree?


NiceGuy, the way you present it is SO confusing! So let's plug in some example numbers. 

Let's imagine she makes $700.00/month on disability. And let's imagine you make $50,000.00/year ($11535/mo before taxes). She has on a paper that she can not take care of the kids or home on a full-time basis (so her chances of primary are fairly low). You also say she's completed her training as a nurse, but chooses to collect disability and not even do work PT, but she does watch the kids while you work. 

The idea is for you two to live completely SEPARATE LIVES as if you were effectively strangers. She has to make her own way now. So she'd have to find a way to either live off of $700.00 or get a job, and you'd have to find someone to watch the kids and continue your job. She pays her own utilities, rent, bills, etc. Now if you two want to arrange it such that she is "paid" what any person would be paid to watch children after school (let's say $100/week) then that's your agreement. You could hire her as "after school sitter" and you'd pay her just like an employer. Okay so she has maybe $450.00/mo. as payment for the job of watching the kids--but you could also pay that to a nanny and it doesn't HAVE to go to her. Get it?

Other than that wage, you do not pay her for her rent, her utilities, her phone, her internet...nothing. That is now her business to decide how to pay that. And right this minute there is literally no court order in effect, and if you wanted to just utterly stop paying anything, there is nothing to prevent you from doing so. I'm not being mean--I'm just saying that my ex went to live with his mistress and said: "I'm not paying one dime until a court orders me to" and he didn't. I had to do it all on my own, and without the court order (like temporary legal separation or temp orders for a divorce) there was no way to "force" him to pay me to support the kids even! 

So does that make sense? If you want to stop ALL PAYMENTS to her right now...there is nothing stopping you legally. The main thing stopping you would be your conscience and precedent. Setting a precedent means acting right now just as you'd like it to be in the divorce/separation agreement...and judges love to just continue things as they are! So tomorrow, just tell her, "Effective immediately, my paycheck is going to my bank account; I'm using it to pay for household bills and to provide for the children; and I'm offering you $100/week to watch the children after school. Otherwise I'm more than happy to find a nanny." The End. No need for an attorney to do that. 



> I *DO* have copies of some of her disability application papers stating that she can't care for the kids and the house without significant help from me and her mother. I actually see her being disabled as a major bargaining chip. She can take care of her apartment, and watch the kids a few hours each day after school, but she CAN'T - in her own written words - care for the kids and the house on a full time basis. We KNOW I can, because I've done it for the last 7 months.
> 
> Other things to consider - if she's forced to go back to work, we have to add in childcare expenses - she watches them while I work right now. I would have to start using vacation on days with no advanced warning to my employer when I have sick kids. Right now, she stays with them if they are sick.


See above.  :lol: LOL 



> As long as she isn't insane, she will do whatever she can to stay out of a courtroom and away from a judge. And I will remind her of that as often as I need to.


Just a note here, NiceGuy--if you two are separating or divorcing (whatever you decide) then it is no longer your job to "remind her of that as often as needed." She is a fully-grown, adult woman and needs to experience the consequences of her choices. Up to now, she has given you guilt as a way to avoid those consequences but that also keeps her from learning the life-lessons she needs to learn. She can not "guilt" a judge, and thus she will learn rather quickly if she chooses to try to go to court. 

Let her learn.


----------



## nice777guy

AC - thanks as always for the advice, but I still feel kind of at odds with everyone and not sure why.



nice777guy said:


> If I look at this as a business transaction, *I see no logic in spending my money on an attorney to reduce her income*.
> 
> 
> 
> AC - also why the "wink" and the "LOL" after the quote about disability papers. Not really ready to laugh or wink about the idea of adding childcare to "my" expenses. Just a bit confused here.
> 
> She's disabled. Some would say she should get back to work. Could debate that part of things all day.
> 
> But - once again - I can see paying an attorney a few hundred "here and there" to help protect me when she starts to push. But it almost seems like some people are saying to go after her disability - take her to court and make her go back to work.
> 
> Doing that - as i see it - might be right and fair and "just", but wouldn't help me ONE BIT. I'm not McDonald's, trying to bankrupt Burger King here. I see that as a "Win / Lose", which is not what I want, given that "Win / Win" is still a possibility here.
> 
> What am I missing here?
> 
> Thanks all. Hope you all had a happy 4th!
Click to expand...


----------



## Affaircare

nice777guy said:


> AC - thanks as always for the advice, but I still feel kind of at odds with everyone and not sure why.
> 
> AC - also why the "wink" and the "LOL" after the quote about disability papers. Not really ready to laugh or wink about the idea of adding childcare to "my" expenses. Just a bit confused here.


Ah the wink and LOL were because I wrote an answer, and then a little later the question came up again so I said "See above" meaning "See my answer up above." And the LOL was because I found it humorous that I wrote an answer before you even asked the question. Sorry if that confused ya.



> She's disabled. Some would say she should get back to work. Could debate that part of things all day.
> 
> ...But it almost seems like some people are saying to go after her disability - take her to court and make her go back to work.


No I don't think that's what people are saying, NiceGuy--at least that's not what I'm saying. As you know, my own Dear Hubby has CFS so I know it's not something where he could work a traditional FT job (9-5 or shift work). One of the benefits he gets from being my spouse and being faithful to me is that I do the major breadwinning and he's at home being Mr. Mom and he can run the household around his "good days and bad days". HOWEVER if he were to become unfaithful and decide he didn't need to honor his vows, then one of the "Stick" parts of Plan A/Carrot & Stick would be that it would become HIS job to figure out how he's going to take care of himself. 

Thus, it would be a long, expensive and ultimately fruitless waste of time to argue "is she disabled or not?" SSI found her disabled enough to pay her disability so under any circumstance that is proof of at least SOME disability. And as your spouse, she has the benefit of you working with her on her "good days and bad days." Since she has chosen to continue her unfaithful ways, despite the fact that you've given her chance after chance to come clean and be transparent, then it becomes HER job to figure out how she's going to take care of herself...and that does include her finances. 



> Doing that - as i see it - might be right and fair and "just", but wouldn't help me ONE BIT. I'm not McDonald's, trying to bankrupt Burger King here. I see that as a "Win / Lose", which is not what I want, given that "Win / Win" is still a possibility here.
> 
> What am I missing here?


Here's what I think you're missing. You don't want to cut her off financially and let her struggle with it on her own. If you cut her off that means she may actually leave. Thus, you are looking for reasons to not disentangle and prolong avoiding the "stick" part of Plan A/Carrot & Stick .... OR the complete cut off of contact in Plan B. Either one means that you take your hands OFF and completely remove yourself from her life as long as she continues in the ongoing unfaithful behavior, and I suspect you think if you let go, she will go away. 

In real life what really happens is that she never learns her life-lessons and your marriage spins out of control like it has been these past several months. 

Sooooo...if you want to do Plan A/Carrot & Stick, or Plan B, or legal separation, or divorce--that decision is up to you but no matter WHICH ONE you pick, they ALL require that you will have to let go and let her flounder, not as a punishment or a Win/Lose but as reality. Reality is that if she chooses to leave you and be dishonest, she looses the BENEFITS of you too. 

I can't speak for others here but I can say that I don't know if you need to "file" yet but you do need to make some major changes that I suspect you are somewhat afraid to make. I was giving you some ideas and specifics and whatnot so you could see what is reasonable and realistic. What she has been demanding/expecting is WAY OFF BASE and not realistic in the least.


----------



## Deejo

I support anger. That is all. :smthumbup:


----------



## Brewster 59

A/C has a lot great advice here first of all if your going without a laywer you should know all you can pertaining to the laws of your state.

I think I would ask a laywer before kicking a disabled person out with no support as that might backfire biiig time. 

A/Cs advice to write out a purposed settlement is gold as well and in the most part will not be a waste of time if she refuses it because when you fill out the petetioners paperwork you will need to list all your assets and the value you asess to them anyways.

I dont think anyone is saying to go after her disability money and I dont think you could even if you wanted to unless you could prove fraud and thats not something you would want to do. I think what people are saying, if you are the primary childcare giver and have to shoulder the expenses of that she may have to go to work in some capacity to be able to afford to live.

A/Cs advice on setting precident is spot on, if you are going to offer support of any kind for her make sure its not more than you would be willing to continue long term as Judges do like to stay with precident. I actually see nothing wrong with making her face the consequences of her actions but you do what you feel is right.

So I dont quit know why you would be at odds with any advice given, sift through it keep any nuggets of wisdom, throw away the rest, only you know whats right for you although I do think ac has a ton of good stuff in the last post.


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## nice777guy

Deejo - wish I felt the same about anger. Its really wearing me down.

Brewster (and A/C) - I don't know if "I'm at odds" was the right thing to say; felt like we were speaking different languages, not necessarily disagreeing; but A/C's post cleared a lot of things up;

I have been doing a lot of reading, and a lot of number crunching; of course it would be in our best interest to come to a compromise long before seeing an attorney or judge; 

worst case for her - a judge who doesn't think fibro is real (many doctors still don't) who would tell her she abandoned her family and deserves nothing.

worst case for me - they use the "rule of thumb" and award her 1/3 of the difference between my annual gross and her annual gross; this would actually be very, very bad for me; This is possible given our 15 years together, the fact that she is disabled (at least by the Social Security Dept's definition), she was a stay at home mom for several years, I've set a precendent by supporting her in the apartment during separation AND she "kind of" followed me around for "my" career - we've moved three times in 15 years.

I have an idea of what I think would be a "fair" settlement. This is where an attorney would help me get my arms around which scenarios are most likely. I think most cases involve the breadwinner leaving the wife AND the kids, so the person leaves behind a lot of expenses and is on the hook for child support and alimony. If SHE does get alimony, she would have to pay some back in child support.

AC hit it on the head when she said that I don't want to let go and watch my wife crash and burn, no matter how she's made me feel. I don't know if its my own self esteem issues, lack of family/support, wondering if I can actually make it on my own and raise two girls, 15 years of marriage - probably all of the above.

Not to mention, I still love her even though I'm terribly hurt and angry.

Also - still the big question - have I really, really tried? I've chased my tail, and continued to be a good single dad, but I don't think I ever focused on doing things that would make her want to come back.

Thanks for listening. Take it easy on me with the advice for now. I'm "man enough" to admit when I'm feeling beat up and down. Going to therapy tomorrow night - maybe that will help as well.


----------



## MEM2020

NG,
I am trying to calibrate my response here to "you" as a person. You are kinder than I am and more patient. Overall I would say you have more love in you than I do. 

In the real world the way that translates is - you are an incredible parent. Not such an incredible partner/spouse. You are financially enabling your wife's emotional addictions. 

I am not going to summarize her bad behaviors. We both know what they are. She has treated you and the marriage with thinly disguised contempt. The refusal to explicitly admit her bad behavior combined with deactivating her accounts is a combo slap in the face/kick in the balls. And yet here you sit wondering what else you could have done. ??????????

You don't want to talk to a lawyer but confess that you have NO IDEA how much alimony she might get and the spread between your LOW number and HIGH number is very big. You also have not mentioned anything about alimony duration. I can assure you it is not for life. 

Your W had a bad break and retreated into her childhood to flirt and seek true love. You seem unwilling/unable to insist she return to adulthood. You are not helping her and not helping the kids. I have met very few adults who lie around focused on their pain and are still "happy". I would be interested to know why if she can walk around and function like a mostly normal person she cannot get a white collar job.....

I know you are trying to keep things amicable - but you need to focus on keeping things "fair". This may end up being the difference between sending the kids to great colleges vs not so great. Down the road that money will matter. Do you think she is worried about their education? 

I am NOT disputing her pain. Simply saying there are non-physical jobs where she could be productive and not experience more pain. Maybe less due to being focused on something else.

I wonder what the SSI board would rule if they knew about her bar hopping? Not talking about you jerking her around with the government, just suggesting that she may have presented a VERY distorted picture of her situation when she applied....






nice777guy said:


> Deejo - wish I felt the same about anger. Its really wearing me down.
> 
> Brewster (and A/C) - I don't know if "I'm at odds" was the right thing to say; felt like we were speaking different languages, not necessarily disagreeing; but A/C's post cleared a lot of things up;
> 
> I have been doing a lot of reading, and a lot of number crunching; of course it would be in our best interest to come to a compromise long before seeing an attorney or judge;
> 
> worst case for her - a judge who doesn't think fibro is real (many doctors still don't) who would tell her she abandoned her family and deserves nothing.
> 
> worst case for me - they use the "rule of thumb" and award her 1/3 of the difference between my annual gross and her annual gross; this would actually be very, very bad for me; This is possible given our 15 years together, the fact that she is disabled (at least by the Social Security Dept's definition), she was a stay at home mom for several years, I've set a precendent by supporting her in the apartment during separation AND she "kind of" followed me around for "my" career - we've moved three times in 15 years.
> 
> I have an idea of what I think would be a "fair" settlement. This is where an attorney would help me get my arms around which scenarios are most likely. I think most cases involve the breadwinner leaving the wife AND the kids, so the person leaves behind a lot of expenses and is on the hook for child support and alimony. If SHE does get alimony, she would have to pay some back in child support.
> 
> AC hit it on the head when she said that I don't want to let go and watch my wife crash and burn, no matter how she's made me feel. I don't know if its my own self esteem issues, lack of family/support, wondering if I can actually make it on my own and raise two girls, 15 years of marriage - probably all of the above.
> 
> Not to mention, I still love her even though I'm terribly hurt and angry.
> 
> Also - still the big question - have I really, really tried? I've chased my tail, and continued to be a good single dad, but I don't think I ever focused on doing things that would make her want to come back.
> 
> Thanks for listening. Take it easy on me with the advice for now. I'm "man enough" to admit when I'm feeling beat up and down. Going to therapy tomorrow night - maybe that will help as well.


----------



## Brewster 59

This divorce thing is emotionally exausting, it comes with times of depression, times of guilt, times of anxiety, times of anger. It makes one wonder what life will be like for oneself, the kids, it causes times of confussion so I dont think you have to Man Up. Its a lot to sort out.


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## nice777guy

Denial - Anger - Bargaining - Depression - Acceptance

I'm no longer in denial - I'm very, very angry - trying like hell to bargain with HER because divorce is a "lose/lose" - and at times slipping into depression.

Some days I think I'm about to bust through - but then I hold myself back.


----------



## Brewster 59

nice777guy said:


> Denial - Anger - Bargaining - Depression - Acceptance
> 
> I'm no longer in denial - I'm very, very angry - trying like hell to bargain with HER because divorce is a "lose/lose" - and at times slipping into depression.
> 
> Some days I think I'm about to bust through - but then I hold myself back.


Ahhh the 7 steps of grief here is what I experience I think Im getting close to acceptance and the next day slide all the way back to depression, then spend some more time in anger the only step I dont slip back to is shock and denial.


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## Affaircare

I can't speak for everyone but I didn't experience the 5 Steps of Grief "in order" or "finish step one and then go to step two." It was more like several months with an emphasis on Denial whilst also feeling hours or even days of the other four...then several months feeling primarily Anger whilst also feeling the other four for an hour, or a day...then several months where the primary emotion was Bargaining, etc. 

I also deeply empathize with NiceGuy in that I was a NiceGirl. I grew up being taught to respect elders, do the right thing, be nice. In my heart of hearts I'm not really an Angry person and I usually very easily satisfied and pretty content with life--happy and easy-going. When I hit the Anger phase I felt so AWFUL because anger isn't nice, anger can be sinful, women aren't supposed to be angry, anger is related to swearing...and all these little message you get in your head that play over and over. I actually felt a lot of anger, but also felt like I wasn't a very good person if I felt it and didn't do a great job expressing it. 

I tried to not feel angry--then I tried to pretend I didn't--I even tried being a little bit angry but not too much... LOL :lol: :rofl: Then I just decided to sort of embrace the anger. I was ANGRYDAMMIT! and I went with it. I wrote a lot of journal/letters and wrote every swear word, in big bold letters! No I never sent one, but in a way just writing them helped get it out. I was mad as H*LL at my ex for so many things. He destroyed my life, my dreams, my identity, my business, my children, my home...everything I knew and loved AND FOR WHAT? More than anything -- I was mad at myself. Mad I didn't see it sooner. Mad that I didn't stand up for myself. Mad that I didn't do a better job. Mad, MAD, *MAD*!! 

So NiceGuy--the Anger is okay, it doesn't (usually) last forever, and it helps you come to grips with the fact that you have had a major loss. Is it right to ACT in anger? No. If you're angry don't do anything foolish and act out of revenge or spite. But Anger, in and of itself, can be a great way to stand up for yourself and say "This is WAAAAY not okay with me!"


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## nice777guy

I think they actually call it the "Stages", not steps, of grief, because you DO go back and forth.

Been reading Codependent No More - and an occaisional chapter of No More Mister Nice Guy (not really into the meat of NMMNG yet). Gave up on Surviving an Affair. No longer see a point in His Needs Her Needs - how about a book called MY Needs...

The anger isn't good because I feel like I only have two gears - low simmer, which eats me alive, and fighting mad, during which I often lose a large amount of intelligence. THAT's where I wish I could man up - let the anger out, but keep it under control.

Also related to the anger, had a long "listen" with my oldest daughter the other day. She thinks that I'm always mad at Mom and that this is all my fault. I just mostly listened - asked her if she really thought I would be so upset for no reason. At the same time, she also can't stand her mother much either, so it was very surprising to me that she was blaming me - mainly because she hears me raise my voice. "I" don't consider it yelling - "I" know I have another gear and a higher volume that I don't use around them - but oldest D has become very sensitive to any arguments between W and I. At the same time she's told my MIL that she doesn't want Mom moving home either.

Have thought about copying this thread into a journal or something and then deleting the post. The advice I need to follow is all here - I just need to follow through. Going to be a busy month and I probably don't need to be hanging around here quite so much anyway. 

If nothing else, I need to find a way to kick my wife out of my "head" so she isn't taking up quite so much of my "mental/emotional" space and energy. Pretty sure she isn't spending much time worrying about me...


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## MEM2020

NG,
Have you gone to a "limited communication" mode with her yet? 
Most people find that the best way to remove someone from your head (gradually) is to stop any meaningful interaction with them. Sad but necessary.






nice777guy said:


> I think they actually call it the "Stages", not steps, of grief, because you DO go back and forth.
> 
> Been reading Codependent No More - and an occaisional chapter of No More Mister Nice Guy (not really into the meat of NMMNG yet). Gave up on Surviving an Affair. No longer see a point in His Needs Her Needs - how about a book called MY Needs...
> 
> The anger isn't good because I feel like I only have two gears - low simmer, which eats me alive, and fighting mad, during which I often lose a large amount of intelligence. THAT's where I wish I could man up - let the anger out, but keep it under control.
> 
> Also related to the anger, had a long "listen" with my oldest daughter the other day. She thinks that I'm always mad at Mom and that this is all my fault. I just mostly listened - asked her if she really thought I would be so upset for no reason. At the same time, she also can't stand her mother much either, so it was very surprising to me that she was blaming me - mainly because she hears me raise my voice. "I" don't consider it yelling - "I" know I have another gear and a higher volume that I don't use around them - but oldest D has become very sensitive to any arguments between W and I. At the same time she's told my MIL that she doesn't want Mom moving home either.
> 
> Have thought about copying this thread into a journal or something and then deleting the post. The advice I need to follow is all here - I just need to follow through. Going to be a busy month and I probably don't need to be hanging around here quite so much anyway.
> 
> If nothing else, I need to find a way to kick my wife out of my "head" so she isn't taking up quite so much of my "mental/emotional" space and energy. Pretty sure she isn't spending much time worrying about me...


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## nice777guy

Honestly MEM - I go back and forth. Hard to stop communicating with someone who was your best friend for almost 20 years and who is also the mother of your children.

But I understand.

Like I said above, I've gotten great advice, I just need to put it to use.

MEM - when you asked why I'm beating myself up about not doing more, I'm looking back at regret that I never really followed a "plan." I focused on chasing her around, and still wonder how things would be if I had started working on ME a lot sooner.


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## MEM2020

NG,
Of course you chased her - you thought that was what you were supposed to do to show commitment. 

I am now going to project myself into your W's shoes. 

"I realize you (NG) are angry but am 100 percent certain I could have you back with a couple phone calls and promises AND letting you see my FB account. So I feel mainly in control. I am also fairly confident that you will do most of what I "need" financially because you are a kind and generous guy. Ooops - got to go - my online "friend" just sent me a sext." 

She will only take you seriously when you start taking yourself seriously. Anything other than LC is toxic for you at this point. You are still in love and she is so NOT.




nice777guy said:


> Honestly MEM - I go back and forth. Hard to stop communicating with someone who was your best friend for almost 20 years and who is also the mother of your children.
> 
> But I understand.
> 
> Like I said above, I've gotten great advice, I just need to put it to use.
> 
> MEM - when you asked why I'm beating myself up about not doing more, I'm looking back at regret that I never really followed a "plan." I focused on chasing her around, and still wonder how things would be if I had started working on ME a lot sooner.


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## Deejo

You know what you need to do. You are self aware - many people don't even get _that_ far.



> The anger isn't good because I feel like I only have two gears - low simmer, which eats me alive, and fighting mad, during which I often lose a large amount of intelligence. THAT's where I wish I could man up - let the anger out, but keep it under control.


You just described me for most of 09.
Growing up, I was _afraid_ to show anger. Somewhere along the line, I got the message that anger was inappropriate and a waste of energy. I believed this for most of my adult life.

Until I took the cork off the bottle. Then unfortunately, I was learning how to express and cope with anger as an adult, from the point of view of a child who had rejected it is a worthwhile emotion.

You are doing the right things NG. Give yourself some credit instead of focusing on what you feel you aren't doing right. I know that feeling too.


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## nice777guy

My childhood was divided into two pretty distinct phases.

Phase 1: Dad was a functional alcoholic. He was gone most of the time, but when he was home there was a lot of lousy fighting. This ended when I was about 10.

Phase 2: My parents just went numb. The only arguments were about what to watch on TV. Maybe the years of being married to an alcoholic had just taken the life out of my mom, and maybe my dad felt guilty and just tried to stay with her and be supportive.

So, from a marriage standpoint, I grew up with very distinct models - you were either at war or at peace - no real in between.

Maybe that's why I'm wired this way - avoid conflict at all costs to avoid an all out war.

Deejo - thx - I needed to hear that right now.

But I think what I really need is to get back to work!

Thanks again to all.


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## Brewster 59

nice777guy said:


> I think they actually call it the "Stages", not steps, of grief, because you DO go back and forth.
> 
> Been reading Codependent No More - and an occaisional chapter of No More Mister Nice Guy (not really into the meat of NMMNG yet). Gave up on Surviving an Affair. No longer see a point in His Needs Her Needs - how about a book called MY Needs...
> 
> The anger isn't good because I feel like I only have two gears - low simmer, which eats me alive, and fighting mad, during which I often lose a large amount of intelligence. THAT's where I wish I could man up - let the anger out, but keep it under control.
> 
> Also related to the anger, had a long "listen" with my oldest daughter the other day. She thinks that I'm always mad at Mom and that this is all my fault. I just mostly listened - asked her if she really thought I would be so upset for no reason. At the same time, she also can't stand her mother much either, so it was very surprising to me that she was blaming me - mainly because she hears me raise my voice. "I" don't consider it yelling - "I" know I have another gear and a higher volume that I don't use around them - but oldest D has become very sensitive to any arguments between W and I. At the same time she's told my MIL that she doesn't want Mom moving home either.
> 
> Have thought about copying this thread into a journal or something and then deleting the post. The advice I need to follow is all here - I just need to follow through. Going to be a busy month and I probably don't need to be hanging around here quite so much anyway.
> 
> If nothing else, I need to find a way to kick my wife out of my "head" so she isn't taking up quite so much of my "mental/emotional" space and energy. Pretty sure she isn't spending much time worrying about me...


Yup your right it is the 7 stages, seems like I spend a lot of time in depression though, with a hole where my heart use to be and my whole body pounding in pain.


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## nice777guy

Kind of dawned on me tonight during what I used to call "marriage therapy" that I don't really miss her - I'm just really pissed off at her that she turned everything upside down with no regards to anyone but herself. 

I think hearing her admit how stupid she's been might be more satisfying than getting her to come home. Is that sick, or normal? Don't care really...

Quoting an e-mail from my mother in law - one of my daughters recently said "Daddy's happier and spends more time with us when Mommy's not around."

And it sounds like a bad country song, but I really miss my dog...

MIL has the kids tonight - gonna watch an R-rated movie while I eat dinner in the living room and have a beer.

Night all!!!


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## Affaircare

You've been awfully quiet the past few days. How are you?

Status at last update was that you were angry, you were considering Plan FU and/or divorce, and yet no decisions were made what to do, no changes were made to do something different, and last I heard your wife was sick.

So what is the status as we start a new week? What is ONE THING you are ready to change this week to move forward?

You know, NiceGuy, no one here would mind if you decided to go to no contact, no funding the infidelity, but also no divorce just yet. It doesn't sound like/feel like you're quite ready to make that jump yet, but I bet you could make one change. So what one change do you want to work on first? Shall we move forward by discontinuing the funding of the infidelity?


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## 2Daughters

Personally I would say go NC, I was having a difficult time whenever I had to pick up or drop off the kids, so I decided to wait in my car and exit ASAP everytime I was there, slowly it got better, now she feels like talking but I do not, she'll bring the kids by now, email even text me, but the super LC/NC is my medicine for now.


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## nice777guy

First thing - which was very important to me - was to get my wife to agree on how we would handle our kids' b-days. We've finally agreed on a plan.

Second - I'm collecting the account and billing info so that I can take over any bills related to me, the kids or the house as of August 1st. She's always paid "our" bills. I also need to turn my "private" checking account into a "working" checking account - I need checks and a debit card.

Once I've gotten control of the bills, I can move most of "our" money into a separate account and (probably sooner) move my paycheck direct deposit to my private account.

I still struggle a bit with how to disentangle 15 years of finances. If I take 75% of what "we" have, she'll still be OK for at least 6 to 10 months, but maybe the shrinking balance will wake her up a bit.

I still need to talk to an attorney to get a better idea of what I might expect from a divorce in terms of child support or alimony. 

And we talked last night - after finally agreeing on a b-day plans - about limiting our contact.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it almost seems like cutting her off emotionally - which I've honestly never done - would impact her more than taking away her access to all of our finances.

One of the reasons I've been quiet is that I'm trying to stop making her the focus of my life or my thoughts. Almost all of my energy has been directed at her. I need to learn to focus more on "me."

Been reading codependent no more again. Stuff definitely applies to me.


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## nice777guy

What I think is honestly most important to ME right now would be to begin to truly detach.

I still care about her – I still find myself worrying about what will happen to her. I still find myself working through the “perfect” argument that will wake her up. Still wondering if she's really THAT far gone.

BUT – while I spend my time worrying about her, she spends her time doing whatever makes her feel good at that moment. I’m not saying I need to join a dating sight, but I could spend a bit more time doing SOMETHING I enjoy.

I still text her goodnight – and it still hurts on those nights she doesn’t reply.

I think the biggest change that I could make would be to go about my own business, spend less time at work looking at this board, and to finally begin to find some way to start enjoying my life again.

All of my thoughts revolve around her. Until I cut THAT off, I’ll never be able to move forward.


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## Affaircare

Hey NiceGuy!

It's been a while since we heard from you and I thought a few days off, to yourself, working on changing your thoughts so that you don't think about this stuff ALL THE TIME might be a good idea. But now it's been about half a week so I thought I'd say hi, see how you're doing, and reply to some of your thoughts. 



> First thing - which was very important to me - was to get my wife to agree on how we would handle our kids' b-days. We've finally agreed on a plan.


Just to give you a vision of what it's like, if you were to divorce, you would have a party for your daughter, and she would have her own party for your daughter. Very rarely do divorced parents do those kinds of events together or cooperatively.

Also when one spouse continues to behave in an unfaithful way and the loyal spouse is in PlanB/Consequences, that would mean allowing your wife to experience the consequence of her choice to no longer honor her vow to you...which in this instance would be that she would have to plan her own party, invite people, get cake and ice cream and presents etc. She would not have the benefit of you to plan the party with cooperatively nor to pay for the party or the presents. 

Soooooo...you ask how you disentangle years of finances. That is one example. 



> Second - I'm collecting the account and billing info so that I can take over any bills related to me, the kids or the house as of August 1st. She's always paid "our" bills. I also need to turn my "private" checking account into a "working" checking account - I need checks and a debit card.
> 
> Once I've gotten control of the bills, I can move most of "our" money into a separate account and (probably sooner) move my paycheck direct deposit to my private account.


This is excellent news, NiceGuy. I know it is amazingly time consuming just to gather the bills and account information and request that it be sent or mailed to you, so I hope you were able to make some progress on this. One thing I did that was helpful was to make spreadsheets of the income and the expenses, and for each creditor I put the info for them right there! Business name, contact name, email address, mailing address, physical address, CS phone #, local phone #, account number, balance. That way I could see EXACTLY where I was with each, and it was one easy resource to look them up. 
I would recommend turning your "private" checking account into the separate account you mention above, move your direct deposit to your "private" account, and then migrate your bills to online bill-pay if you can. It is SO EASY that way, you'll love it. 



> I still struggle a bit with how to disentangle 15 years of finances. If I take 75% of what "we" have, she'll still be OK for at least 6 to 10 months, but maybe the shrinking balance will wake her up a bit.


Honestly I'm kind of old-school about it and I think "if she earns it, she keeps it--if you earn it, you keep it." And yep, by the way, I did apply that same philosophy to myself when I divorced my ex. I did not ask for spousal support because I'm able to earn, I have the training to earn, and I am personally responsible for me. At the time I did ask for child support because he was a walkaway father, but that's not your case, is it? I would say you're being generous to pay her to watch the children after school until you get home, but if you are willing to do the 75% and pay her for childcare, then most likely that is what will be entered in the Temporary Orders and there's a good chance that's what may be in your divorce if you were to go that route. 

For now, I'd say you're being more than fair, and if you're okay with giving her 25% that is your business. I wouldn't. She is the one who chooses to leave and be unfaithful, and the choice has a price. The price is that she doesn't live off your income and has to depend on her own--even if she is disabled (and I'm not debating that here, just stating it as a fact). 



> I still need to talk to an attorney to get a better idea of what I might expect from a divorce in terms of child support or alimony.


 Wise idea. I'd recommend doing several 1 hour consultations when/if you can in order to get a feel for the attorney and to see if they are pro-marriage. You can ALWAYS talk to an attorney, NiceGuy, and it is only finding out information. You don't have to file, and if you are lucky enough to find a pro-marriage lawyer, he/she can help you with tactics to stall if that's what YOU want to do. Okay?



> ... Maybe I'm wrong, but it almost seems like cutting her off emotionally - which I've honestly never done - would impact her more than taking away her access to all of our finances.


You know it's hard to say, NiceGuy, because you are there and you know her better than we do, but maybe it's just me. Money talks. Sometimes talking doesn't get through to their heads, whereas a sudden discontinuation of fundage brings about a zenith moment. :lol: "Oh! You meant THAT fidelity! AH!" :lol: Also cutting someone off emotionally is somewhat esoteric, whereas, "I am keeping my money now and you can no longer live off of me" is very practical. 



> One of the reasons I've been quiet is that I'm trying to stop making her the focus of my life or my thoughts. Almost all of my energy has been directed at her. I need to learn to focus more on "me." Been reading codependent no more again. Stuff definitely applies to me.


Again, I think this is a very wise idea. One of the hardest parts for me when I was adjusting to separation/divorce was retraining my mind to not be entirely tangled up with HIM. I hadn't realized how much of my time, thoughts and energy were meshed with doing what he wanted, when he wanted, how he wanted, trying to please him, and trying to keep some kind of peace between us. When we were apart, I couldn't do stuff with or for him and didn't need to "keep the peace" (because he was gone)... so I had nothing to do but dwell on it and stew in it. BUT once I got focused on me and my issues and working on myself...learning and growing personally...it was AWESOME. I learned a LOT and replaced thoughts of placating him with figuring out what I want and what boundaries were and how to set a boundary around me, etc. 



> What I think is honestly most important to ME right now would be to begin to truly detach.
> 
> I still care about her – I still find myself worrying about what will happen to her. I still find myself working through the “perfect” argument that will wake her up. Still wondering if she's really THAT far gone.
> 
> BUT – while I spend my time worrying about her, she spends her time doing whatever makes her feel good at that moment. I’m not saying I need to join a dating sight, but I could spend a bit more time doing SOMETHING I enjoy.


Again, this is VERY wise. I think you're on a good track here, NiceGuy. I remember one day when I was separated I went with the kids (who were little) to play in the park and I actually played with them. I rolled down the hill in the grass. And you know what I discovered? I LIKED IT!! I felt so guilty having fun while my marriage was in trouble, but the fact is...I had given up most of my "funness" while trying to save the marriage and that's not me. 

So I recommend two things: 1) join a group or class or something that you have always been interested in but she didn't want you to join, and 2) do some volunteer work. You do #1 because it will reconnect you to the true you...who YOU are. And you do #2 to give back and to remind yourself that your life isn't an abyss and there are other lonely, hurting people out there who need you. 



> I think the biggest change that I could make would be to go about my own business, spend less time at work looking at this board, and to finally begin to find some way to start enjoying my life again.
> 
> All of my thoughts revolve around her. Until I cut THAT off, I’ll never be able to move forward.


You got it! Except I do protest...you should look here on this board cuz we miss you.  It sounds to me like you are on EXACTLY the right path though, and that whether you two reunite or not, that YOU are doing the things you can do and being responsible not only for you and for your kids, but doing the best thing for her too...to help her learn her life lesson in the fastest way possible. 

Soooo when you have a minute will you give an update?


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## nice777guy

Kind of a Carrot moment this weekend. Busted my hump for my girls’ “family” b-day party. Family for us is mostly my wife’s family. Had about 10 people over – not a huge deal, but it was nice for everyone. And I’m giving myself 95% of the credit for it – with some small help from my MIL and a little from my wife.

Just as important, my wife actually had a nice time spending time with me, the kids and even her own family. They are really good people and have been very supportive of me over the last year, while my wife has tended to avoid them as much as possible.

Hope this was a reminder to my wife that hanging out at her corner bar or chatting on the PC/iPhone aretn’t the only ways to be social. And it may not be “sexy” or exciting to hang out with your own family, but it can still be a very good time.

Having trouble pulling off the sleepover part of this birthday extravaganza due to “scheduling conflicts” among these 10-11 year olds. But wife has agreed to chaperone with me that night.

Other than that, and my working to shore up the financial side of things, I guess I’m still pretty much in limbo.

Have to admit that trying to be Mr. Mom AND Mr. Breadwinner is becoming very difficult. I’m at work right now – had to come in yesterday once too. So – overtime at work, planning 2 parties for two girls, entertaining guests and basically being a single dad is kind of wearing on me right now. Finding myself wishing at times that my wife would at least step it up as a mother. If my wife truly wanted to the kids and was the best option for them, I would step aside, get a grungy apartment, focus more time and effort on work and pay the child support. But until she steps it up, I just can’t let up trying to be both Mr. Mom and the Breadwinning Single Dad.

Thanks for listening.


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## agape

Sorry you are going through this. I get where the anger comes from. You do deserve better then this!!


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## ADM

Confrats on what you did, surely you have done it well! 

...I'm reading all those pages of anger.

How do you expect your wife to "understand" it out of nowhere...what would do her to see it now if she didn't see it so far...have you aver tried to do a 180 degree change? ...that's how you can surprise her and get some attention...Just wondering.


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## nice777guy

ADM - my real wife is still "in there" somewhere. Hoping she flips that switch again at some point. The "carrot" in this case was really more a side effect of me doing something good for my kids and "their" family. I don't expect a 180, but I'm not really jumping through hoops for her at this point.

I don't think she's a happy person. Maybe if she sees me doing my thing and doing it well, she'll remember how things are supposed to be. But I'm not putting on a show just for her at this point.


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## turnera

The 180 might not be a bad idea. Although you're kind of doing it now. But giving her a glimpse of life with you moving on might help.


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## Deejo

turnera said:


> The 180 might not be a bad idea. Although you're kind of doing it now. But giving her a glimpse of life with you moving on might help.


I agree. But don't make it a glimpse. Make it a full length feature in 3D ... with zombies ... and ninjas ... and a cyborg from the future.


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## Affaircare

If I remember correctly, you were making some moves to have your bills and things mailed to you so you could take over family finances, and have your paycheck direct deposited to your account not a joint account...that kind of thing right? And you do have a definitive DATE in mind that is coming up shortly, right? Is all that still on track or moving toward that goal?

Regarding the birthday party and your wife being "in there" I have a statement for you Niceguy that I think you've been trying to avoid. Some part of your head, I believe, keeps hoping that if you SAY or DO "just the right thing" that the wife of your past will re-awaken and your marriage will return to the way it was or at least some semblance of normal! However, NiceGuy, I'm sorry to have to be the one to tell you that there is no magic thing to say or do that will bring back your old wife the way she was. 

When a person is unfaithful, usually (like 99% of the time) they do it because there is something broken in the relationship. Now, on the occasion there is something about the PERSON that is broken that is exacerbated by the relationship--for example the disloyal spouse has a personality disorder or an extreme, unhealthy need to be "desired. In the instance of a broken relationship, the two started off kindling love and gradually added more and more extinguishers until it died out--but the relationship is able to be saved if they stop the extinguishers and re-start the kindlers--right? In the instance of a broken PERSON, the two start of kindling love sometimes because without knowing it, one is feeding into the unhealthy need of the other. Gradually as extinguishers are added, the part of the person that was broken was triggered and their mental health issues were magnified to the point that they are unable to function normally. 

Now, NiceGuy, obviously all this is over the internet and we have not heard word one from your wife's side, but it is my observation that you have tried most of the typical kindler/extinguisher things that have the likelihood of "bringing a person around" and you have taken some steps in the seven steps to ending unfaithfulness. Despite taking steps and even trying other options like the 180, your wife not only continues in what is clearly a self-destructive pattern, she shows no indications of remorse or slowing even though she knows it's harmful! So I would have to guess (and I mean that...educated guess) that it's one of two things: 1) She has some mental health issue which will not be addressed by typical methods of dealing with infidelity or 2) She is bound and determined in her heart to continue being unfaithful no matter the cost. 

EITHER WAY, you as a human being and as a man will not benefit and grow by continuing to think your wife is "in there" and continuing to hunt for the magic words to make her come out again. Something happened--I don't know if it was a hurt that sent her over the edge or a trigger that changed her--and your old wife will not be returning. NiceGuy, if you need to you can think of it as a death, and mourn as if it is a death, but your old wife is gone and is not coming back. 

And we are all here to help you come to grips with that fact. 

If you would like, you can secure your finances and your finances and do your best to move forward rebuilding your lives while your current wife struggles with whatever her issue is. IF the day comes that SHE chooses to go into personal therapy and face her demon, you and the children will be safe and unharmed by her. IF that day does not come, you will still be safe and unharmed by her. But ultimately all your trying "this and that" is about this one issue: your old wife is not coming back. 

Can you accept that NiceGuy?


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## nice777guy

Can I accept that? I think I'm slowly learning to.

Been visiting this site less - which translates to thinking about "her" less.

And "seeing the old her" this weekend was really just a side effect of throwing a party for our kids and inviting our/her family over to celebrate. The carrot wasn't the intent - just kind of happened.

Was really just doing what I need to do.

Its very frustrating because she can still smile and charm like the "old" her. And she truly acts like she doesn't understand why I'm so upset.

Mental illness is definitely a possibility. Even - or maybe especially - that idea makes me want to 'help' her even more - if she might be sick.

But more and more I see her like an alocholic - doing things that are self-destructive - things that I have to distance myself from and have no control over. Reading codependent literature is helping me frame things in that light.

And yes - I still have the deadline in mind to pull the switch on the finances - but I'm not quite ready yet - emotionally or other. Plus I'm not sure that it will have the impact that some here are expecting. She has a decent income, and a modest apartment with no car payment and very few other bills. If I leave her a reasonable part of our liquid cash (25%), she'll be fine for several months.

I was sick last week. I'm not an incredibly healthy person, but I don't get sick often. Doctor did some labs and found nothing - which makes me wonder if its actually just the stress of all this, wearing down on me.

Thanks again to all.


----------



## ADM

U do love her a lot, still, don't you? I can fell that and am so sorry for the situation...but I think you are on the right road, but pls take my advice and don't try to "cure" her, that is wrong. Read some literature before going further in improving your relationship, if you want to do that...it takes lots of time but it can be done if you want her back. 

Good luck!


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## nice777guy

Affaircare said:


> In the instance of a broken PERSON, the two start of kindling love sometimes because without knowing it, one is feeding into the unhealthy need of the other. Gradually as extinguishers are added, the part of the person that was broken was triggered and their mental health issues were magnified to the point that they are unable to function normally.
> 
> But ultimately all your trying "this and that" is about this one issue: your old wife is not coming back.
> 
> Can you accept that NiceGuy?


Anyone else have any thoughts on this? Is this truly a lost cause due to my wife being a "broken person"?

Not denying or arguing - just wondering if anyone else agrees or disagrees.


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## turnera

Whenever I think of your wife, I think of an old coworker I had, who told me that she helps her husband when he mows the yard (I mow and edge alongside my husband); I asked her what she does to help. She said she brings out a lawn chair and an iced tea and sits in the driveway and reads a magazine; in her mind, that was helping him! I'll never forget that.

You just can't change who a person is. If you can accept the low level of consideration for you, go for it. If you want more, I would advise get out.


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## nice777guy

turnera said:


> Whenever I think of your wife, I think of an old coworker I had, who told me that she helps her husband when he mows the yard (I mow and edge alongside my husband); I asked her what she does to help. She said she brings out a lawn chair and an iced tea and sits in the driveway and reads a magazine; in her mind, that was helping him! I'll never forget that.
> 
> You just can't change who a person is. If you can accept the low level of consideration for you, go for it. If you want more, I would advise get out.


Turnera - in your opinion, was this person being manipulative, or were they truly unable to see the truth?


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## turnera

No, she was unable to see it. She truly thought that was the extent of what she owed her husband - be beautiful, be arm candy, be female. Be able to do whatever she wanted, and let him pay for it. I was surprised she even worked.


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## nice777guy

And at that point, reason and logic no longer apply.


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## nice777guy

Think I’ve posted this before, but sometimes my wife reminds me of Indiana University’s former basketball coach, Bob Knight. Coach Knight had a long list of very odd things that he had done – some worse than others. The rare times that he would address these things in interviews, he always had very reasonable sounding answers to each individual action – being arrested in Puerto Rico, throwing a chair across the floor during a game, headbutting a player, etc.,

Even though each individual story, or excuse, sounded reasonable as he would tell it, you would still find yourself thinking that there is no other college sports coach who had such a long list of questionable activities. If half of what was said about him was true – he was a first class jerk – or maybe mentally unstable.

Things finally got to a breaking point when a former assistant published a video showing Coach Knight grab a player by the front of the neck during practice. He was choking the kid.

When asked about this, he firmly denied it. When asked if he’d seen the video, he replied “I don’t need to see the video to know I didn’t choke him.”

My wife doesn’t need to see the phone bills to know she hasn’t done anything wrong. My wife doesn’t need to hear the kids say “Mommy’s always on her phone or laptop” to know that she’s just sick and not ignoring them. She doesn’t need to see the list of names I’ve compiled of guys she’s been “friends” with to know she’s just making new harmless friends because she's a social person and I'm not.

She’s just talking with people and its ridiculous for me to tell her she can never talk to anyone again.

I get mad at her less and less often. And when I’m not mad at her, she seems to think that everything’s just OK. She still says she wants to move home. Yesterday I told her there is no way and she was SO confused. Told me she’s tired of me going back and forth – that she had a nice time with her family this weekend and didn’t understand why I was so upset about stuff that happened months ago. I kindly reminded her that her phone is still locked, she’s hidden herself from me on Facebook and she still runs back to the apartment when its convenient for her.

Anyway – need to work today. Thanks for listening.


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## turnera

nice777guy said:


> I get mad at her less and less often.


That may be because you are falling out of love with her.


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## nice777guy

turnera said:


> That may be because you are falling out of love with her.


That's part of it. Its also that her erratic behavior no longer surprises me.

I really do still love her though. There's just been so much hurt, and she's so different. Its just not the same.


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## nice777guy

Also kind of funny and sad - I posted part of our story recently on a Fibromyalgia discussion board. Wondering if anyone else with Fibro had retreated into their own special, online world. 

They all basically told me to run - protect myself and my kids. That most people with Fibro would be embracing the support I've given, and most rallied around their role as mother/parent when they were no longer able to work.


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## Deejo

This isn't a trapdoor question, but I have been wondering; can you accept or envision accepting that this is now who your wife is?


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## nice777guy

Deejo - AC basically suggested that above. That I accept this is a permenant change - treat it / mourn it as a death.

Like I said, it IS hard to do, but I'm slowly getting there. I DO still see some of the things I fell in love with - just less frequently, and those things are being drowned out by her new behaviors.

And - if I'm not asking questions - she can sometimes act totally normal - until she picks up her phone or gets on her laptop. Then she's off to another world.

Also very hard because of the kids. Not sure what to do there. "I" could walk away - they can't. I feel strongly that she should be doing a lot more as a mother. Not exactly neglect - at least not what I would expect a judge to see as neglect.

And as I've also said more and more lately, I'm finding it hard to be Mr. Mom and do everything else too.


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## nice777guy

And with a death, the body doesn't walk around trying to trick you into thinking nothing has changed. You get a chance to heal - the worst has ended. You get to move on.

I get to look forward to divorce, more fights, and more insanity.

Yeah - its actually pretty freakin' hard to understand.


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## Deejo

What I was wondering, was can you accept who she is as part of reconciling. Guess I could have been clearer by framing it as:

Can you love her, and choose to be with her, exactly as she is now in order to reconcile?

I asked myself this question. You know what my answer was. And I agree, it doesn't make it less difficult or painful.


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## nice777guy

Deejo said:


> Can you love her, and choose to be with her, exactly as she is now in order to reconcile?


I've considered this, and sometimes I think I could find a way. Hell, I've basically stuck it out for more than a year - and its starting to hurt less and less.

If I thought it would help the kids then I would really consider it. Sometimes I think the status quo is most comfortable for all of us.


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## Affaircare

NiceGuy, I wanted to explain something right out here in public. I'm not advocating that your wife has a mental illness and she's a lost cause. I'm not advocating that you leave her or end the marriage! In the end, it is your life and you choose whether to end your marriage or whether to honor your vow--and "for worse" and "in sickness" may apply here! The choice is yours, and you may very well choose to accept her as she is for the good of the family. You can do that if that's what you decide. 

What I *AM* saying is that a lot of your actions seem to center around "fixing her" and you do not have control over her. You have control over you. Further, your posts tend to indicate that a lot of your moves are made with the hope that something will wake up your wife and the old wife will come back out again. What I'm trying to do is to change your focus from "fixing her" or "getting her to be like she was" or "waking up the old wife who's still in there" to place your concentration and attention on YOU. 

So I'm trying to get your mind to start addressing the work you need to do on you to be a better man and better husband in the future--whether that is with a whole different her or someone else. She may or may not come back, and she even if she did, she DEFINITELY would not be "the way she was"--so right now your concentration needs to be on examining yourself and the extinguishers. Which ones did you do? When you read through and are really honest with yourself, which ones convict you? Angry Explosions? Okay focus your efforts on learning about anger and taking the time to find an online anger management and practice those more healthy anger techniques. 

So she may or may not have a personality disorder or mental illness--I can't tell--but in my personal opinion that is somewhat irrelevant. The relevant part is to stop trying to do things to get her to "snap out of it" and start choosing to do things deliberately to make yourself a better man. Address your own issues (if any) and do things because it is the right thing to do and because it will benefit your family (and you) and teach them the right thing! 

Does that make sense?


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## nice777guy

AC - Yes and no.

I still don't really think that I triggered this. I'll own up to not doing enough love kindling, but I've not been dousing it with water either.

My wife got sick - she has all the time in the world and supposedly no energy (unless she's excited about something). She has a huge hole to fill in her life. Many people might have filled it with the kids - become a better parent. She's filled it with TV, the internet, chatting, iPhone, guys, etc., etc. I can't fill it for her. I could help, but not with what she's doing.

I agree that I need to focus on ME for ME - and for my kids. My wife and kids have been my center and my focus - thats slowly changing.

I still often feel like I'm in survival mode. I feel like a single Dad who is working full time - and my wife is a glorified babysitter and a bad girlfriend - the kind who only comes around when she needs something, like money or sex.

I'm struggling. I really am. Self improvement sounds great - but I'm basically a single dad with two kids.

And like I said - the party was for the kids - and also to some degree it was for me - to reinforce to HER FAMILY that I'M stepping it up even without her help. And to reinforce to the kids that everything will be OK - they'll still have great B-days - Dad will take care of it all. 

But these kinds of efforts are wearing me thin.


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## nice777guy

Really feeling alone in the world today.

Have stopped the "goodnight" texting. Not much contact at all this week - been doing "ok" with it.

Kind of wishing I had some of that anger back that I had the day I started this thread.

Making a lot of lists of goals, plans, dreams.

When I find myself thinking about "her" - I try to catch myself and change it quickly to ME.

Hard to unravel 15+ years...


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## Deejo

Getting the anger back isn't all that hard.

Instead of thinking about her, the good things you remember or the good things you hope for, go back and focus on what she did, didn't do and hasn't done. Think about all there is that she still hasn't told you about.

Let that be your reinforcement for wanting to do more, and be better for yourself - or another woman. 

I now treat anger like tending a fire. Sometimes it keeps me warm and safe, but I don't want to let it grow into an inferno. (Went there, it wasn't pretty)

I have to ask, have you imagined yourself in another relationship?


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## nice777guy

Deejo said:


> I have to ask, have you imagined yourself in another relationship?


Ummm....no....

Starting a local chapter of the "He-Man Woman Haters" club.


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## Deejo

nice777guy said:


> Ummm....no....
> 
> Starting a local chapter of the "He-Man Woman Haters" club.


I'll bring pork rinds and beer ...


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## nice777guy

Had one of those long, stupid conversations with my dear wife today. Got a lot of things off my chest - and felt like I was totally right - but it doesn't help.

And apparently the problem is that I never snuggled enough. Guess there's a lot of snuggling going on at the bar she goes to. Or maybe she's just been cyber-snuggling. Or, she's just full of ****...


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## turnera

Big clue about women: They WANT snuggling with no strings attached - meaning, snuggling that does NOT have to turn into sex. If we feel you will always push the snuggling into a sex event, we will stop snuggling, and then resent you for not snuggling.

Try going for every other time you snuggle, you go for sex.


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## nice777guy

Turnera - No problem with snuggling here. At this point, she's the one pushing for sex when we have a rare moment alone.

During those rare times alone - during these rare conversations - I'm still pushing that the laptop and iPhone have to be opened up or GONE - and at least yesterday, I was far too angry to do any kind of snuggling.

We did actually look at some of the marriagebuilders articles that I had sent her. Its just amazing how "they" can read that stuff and only pick out what they want. "No - you see - there's always a reason people have affairs..."

To me - all the stuff about meeting needs - can't start until her addiction to the phone, laptop and other guys completely stops.

She was at the house for my daughter's slumber party Saturday night. Sure enough she was "chatting" on the PC - could tell by the way she was typing - then pausing - then typing - late Saturday night. I just let it go - went outside - spent time checking on the kids. Next day she admitted it was a "friend".

I went off on her yesterday afternoon. I was angry - but controlled. Every time she would talk about what she needed to "stop" her activities, I told her that she had to stop the activities before I could even think about what she needed.

I also heavily criticized her lack of commitment to the kids. She didn't like that at all. When I replayed it later in my mind, I really don't think I said anything that wasn't true.

I feel so strongly about what needs to happen - even when angry its so easy for me to lay out the steps and counter her arguments.

I just don't think its going to matter - which also kind of helps. Havng these discussions - not worrying about losing something that you've already been mourning - can be somewhat liberating.

Feel like I'm rambling now. I had actually asked her to leave about 15 minutes into our talk, but for some reason she wanted to talk for a change.

I don't really think she misses me or the kids. I just think she wants to be wanted. I think it hurts her to see that I'm not begging her to come home - or even trying to stay calm or apologize for speaking truthful things that are hard to hear.


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## nice777guy

Looking for feedback - during our long, wonderful conversation - I was clear and consistent that we would never move forward without openness and honesty, and the first step would HAVE to be for her to end all texting, calling, internet, etc., etc. - interactions with other men.

She asked what was in it for her. My initial response was that I didn't know - no use in looking past this first step if she wasn't committed. And that I could make no promises that we could still reconcile.

Now I think that what's in it for her is a chance for HER to restore her own dignity. THEN - a chance for her to reconcile with me. If I'm not worth it, then she needs to move along.

Is the second answer - dignity and a chance to be with me - a "better" answer? Or does none of this matter if she won't even commit?

Thanks y'all!


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## turnera

I would just be blunt. Tell her you think she HAS lost her dignity, and most people would agree with you - and have. I would then tell her that you are nearing the point where you may no longer think that she deserves YOU.


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## nice777guy

Was just thinking that...

Have been consistently calling her a liar and a cheater - makes her mad, but oh well - its how I see things. Sometimes I'll clarify and say I don't "think" she's had a PA, but that she's been Unfaithful at BEST.

Also called her a tramp - felt kind of bad about it and could tell it hurt her - but then thought some more and realized the shoe pretty much fits - hanging out at bars, seeking constant attention from other men...sounds tramp-like to me.

What do I have to lose at this point?


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## notreadytoquit

If anyone has been patient on this forum that's you. Just be blunt and open and tell her exactly what you mean. She can then dwell on the information. During our divorce process my husband would initially get mad on everything I would ask or say but then I guess he would think about what he has done and then mellow down and accept what I ask for. I guess those are the moments when they temporarily get out of of the fog.


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## nice777guy

Have seen her briefly the last two days. Yesterday she felt the need to let me know she was going out with her cousin - I just said "whatever" and went about my business. She kind of huffed - like its OK because its her cousin - but that's not really the point right now. Point is she can't stay away from other men on the net and her phone - and she lies so much it doesn't really matter what she "says" she's going to do.


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## nice777guy

Then tonight she's not feeling well - needed me to go home "on time" - got the "I really love you and I want to move home..." - to which I auto reply - "You have to stop this $hit..."

She's confused.


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## turnera

Maybe you truly do need to just spell it out as plainly and elementarily as possible. If it's true that she simply cannot understand the harm she's causing, maybe she will be willing to follow plain, simple instructions, even without understanding what their purpose is.


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## Deejo

I think you should be asking yourself the same question. "What's in it for me?"

Strip out all of the political correctness, fairness, niceties, spirituality and therapeutic dogma.

It is THE fundamental reason that we choose to pursue or dismiss an intimate relationship. Because we 'get' something out of it. We expect there to be something worthwhile and desirable out of pursuing a relationship with a particular person.

So what is it that this woman can give to you, and you expect her to give to you, that makes you continue to hold on?

What are the things that she would need to do specifically to make you happy? And do believe that she can, will, and would want to do them?

Do you know exactly what she wants or needs from you? Can you, will you, do you want to provide her with those things?

You don't have to answer. I went through this same arc with my spouse.
Net, net, our ultimate answer was that we both undoubtedly knew that the other was capable of delivering the payoff for, "What's in it for me?"

But the framework and trust required to do so was gone - kind of like I see in your relationship. You don't respect her (deservedly in my opinion), consequently from her perspective there is no point in trying to give you what you want, because she doesn't believe there is any upside for herself. She doesn't trust that you will deliver on what she wants, rightly or wrongly.

Yet, the two of you at times function almost normally, whether interacting, or having sex. It's those shared moments that actually make things more confusing, not less. We did that dance too.

I'm more sounding off on how these circumstances look and feel like my own, and trying to provide how I approached it, weighed it and ultimately after many, many fits and starts, we decided. 

Despite wanting to, neither of us trusted the other to deliver the goods.


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## Affaircare

NiceGuy~

As you know me by now, I've been ruminating about your talk with your wife and would like to first, make sure I have my facts more or less straight, and then tell you my conclusions and suggestions. 

First, you and your wife had some Loooooong talks over the weekend. You two looked over the Marriagebuilder topics of Emotional Needs (the behaviors that BUILD love in a marriage) and Lovebusters (the behaviors that DESTROY love in a marriage) and for this post's sake I'll continue using those terms for those definitions, okay? She has been a person who had an EA at one point, but currently is not have a singular "affair" with one "other man" but rather is living in a way that is unfaithful by going to bars, not being responsible of the children or her adult duties, and not "forsaking all others" to give 100% of her affection and loyalty only to you. You, by the same token, did all the things you shouldn't do when a spouse has an affair...begged and pleaded, then kinda of the doormat, then paying for her affair...no Plan A or Plan B because you didn't know about it at the time. Now a bunch of time has gone by, you are frustrated and burned out, and she's just as unfaithful but says you're the one with trust issues. And this weekend, during your loooong talk, basically she said, "Before I give up my unfaithfulness you have to start meeting my needs. Meet my needs and I'll give up my affairs." YOU were angry, called her some names, and effectively said, "No, you give up your unfaithfulness and I'll start meeting your needs" to which she asked, "Well what's in it for me?" and you were a little stymied. What IS in it for her .... and should she give in first or should you? And why?

Right? Is that basically it?

NiceGuy, I think part of the reason you get into these tit-for-tats with your wife is that you don't discipline YOURSELF and keep yourself in line and on track. You flail here and there, because so many of your actions and words are REactions, based on a fleeting feeling "at the moment"...and not DECISIONS, based on rational, reasonable thoughts and facts. I want to challenge you to start looking at YOURSELF and your own issues, and stop dwelling on your wife and her issues. In other words, don't just wait for "the time to come" when it's calm and peaceful and you can think. MAKE TIME and deliberately discipline yourself to use rational thought and contemplate where you ARE, where you want to be, what you want and need out of life, and how you can get TO THAT GOAL...and then determine to self-discipline yourself to act from that place of being true to yourself. That may or may not include her right now, and that's okay. You have GOT to stop reacting out of a momentary feeling, because feelings come and go, and they can so easily be changed. On the other hand, if you react based on a decision reached after giving due consideration...that doesn't change and it's permanent and something you can actually build on! And by the way, I say this as someone who is an INFP (Introverted, Intuitive, Feeler, Perceiver) so I am EMOTIONAL!!! But I've learned to at least discipline myself enough to be able to say: "Whoa stop. Do not say or do anything right now until the brain kicks back in." 

That being said...how about her questions and your questions. Which comes first? The chicken or the egg? Well..ladies first. She says: "Before I give up my unfaithfulness you have to start meeting my needs. Meet my needs and I'll give up my affairs." :lol: To be honest, that is about 99.99% Deep Impenetrable Fog talking there. She wants to have her cake and eat it too, and if you meet her needs and the FB "friends" meet her needs, then she'll play you both as long as she can and need time to think who meets the needs better... yada yada yada. We've been down this road 100 times before. Yet if nothing else, it is a great clue that she's still engaging in unfaithful behavior: it's not based in reality, it's 100% self-centered, and it utterly ignores all personal-responsibility to her own family (you and the children). Soooo...this is really no surprise and is actually pretty consistent! Honestly I think one of the issues here is not that she speaks as if she's a disloyal heavily fogged in...it's that you keep expecting/hoping she'll speak as if she's "your old wife" or a loyal wife!

Next, by your own admission, YOU were angry, called her some names (liar, cheat, tramp), and effectively said, "No, you give up your unfaithfulness and I'll start meeting your needs." In the same way that her question is fogged in and self-centered and she's responsible for making those choices--you LoveBusted all over her, expressed anger inappropriately, called her names that were purposely meant to hurt her, questioned her commitment to the kids... NiceGuy, long story short YOU are just as responsible for your choices as she is for hers, and you chose to LoveBust. I get the concept that Anger is a protection, but that would be anger that's expressed appropriately. So right off the bat, you do owe her an apology that takes responsibility (in order words, no saying "Well you made me...."), that empathizes with how it must have made her feel, and that indicates your plan to handle your anger in a healthier way next time. However, after apologizing for your bad choices there, I would say that your side is closer-ish but still not quite hitting the mark. You see, as Tanelorn and I try to explain to people, affairs don't usually happen in a vacuum. She did some lovebuster things and stopped meeting needs...you did some lovebuster things and stopped meeting needs...and she made the decision to be unfaithful. Now, you are in a modified Plan A with some limited contact due to being burned out, and Plan A does have to do with meeting needs. 

Okay here is a shorter version of what Plan A is. Plan A is not being a doormat or a cuckold. When a person is in Plan A, they learn what they can of their own personality, their own emotional needs, and the lovebusters that were done to them. They identify their own weaknesses, the areas in which they had a bad spirirt that contributed to lovebusting their spouse and harming their marriage, and they focus on fixing those issues. Plan A does not mean "meet your disloyal spouse's needs while the OP is also meeting needs" because that's fence-sitting--but it DOES mean changing yourself so you can demonstrate, by word and more importantly ACTION that you have the ability to meet your disloyal's needs. Most importantly though it means demonstrating by word and action that you can STOP LOVEBUSTING. Furthermore, since Plan A does not mean Plan Doormat, while you're in Plan A you don't do anything to enable or facilitate further unfaithfulness. You do not shield your disloyal spouse from experiencing the consequences of their choices. So if they choose to move out, you allow them to experience no longer having some of the benefits of YOU. 

In your instance, NiceGuy, the answer to your wife's dilemna is this. *She voluntarily stood before God and family and made a covenant to forsake all others and give 100% off her affection and loyalty to you only.* *So what's in it for her is that she has the satisfaction of honoring her promise, being an honest person, being a woman of morals and character, being a human being with the character to do the right thing when it's hard, being a parent who models to her children that she values faithfulness and honesty. *Her covenant in her marriage vows did not say she'd forsake all others if something was in it for her so there is no "escape clause" like that! :lol: But by the same token, what she is sort of saying is that even if it makes her dishonest, immoral and faithless, at least the bars and online friends sort of meet her needs. So here's the part that falls on you that you are sort of dropping the ball. In Plan A it is your job to demonstrate to her that you can end all lovebusters, and that you have the ABILITY to meet her needs (and where it doesn't enable the affair...meet them). So far you've shown her you still lovebust all over the place, don't really discipline yourself and haven't really changed, and you're unwilling and unable to meet her needs. 

SOOOO...it comes around again to learning how to not REACT to a feeling. I would summarize by saying I would suggest that you: 
1) apologize to her for the name calling and anger (REP: Responsibility, Empathy, Plan)
2) take time to think and make a DECISION. and then react based on what you DECIDE. 
3) work on yourself, ending the lovebusters
4) tell her that what's in it for her are the reasons above in red...and that she did volunteer to forsake all others...but that you understand you have not demonstrated consistently that you have the ability to not hurt her (lovebust) or that you have the ability to meet her needs either. 

So NiceGuy..are you willing to show her that you can stop lovebusting and that you have the ability to meet her needs...but that just like everything there are responsibilities to getting what you want and in this instance it means forsaking all others!


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## nice777guy

Thanks for the great advice AC - but quickly onto a new subject.

Found wife's "secret" myspace account last night. Says she's divorced and looking for a serious relationship.

MIL had sent an e-mail to each of us reminding us of their upcoming family reunion. Its SO tempting to send her a link to this page, copy my wife, and explain how I'm apparently no longer part of the family.

Any point in continuing to expose? In this case I'm really just exposing her "public" myspace page.


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## turnera

I would DEFINITELY send her mom that link.

What a B.

Are you ready to divorce now?


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## nice777guy

Link has been sent to MIL and Brother. Not sure if it was the right thing to do or not.

Have a Nine Inch Nails song stuck in my head:

"Nothing can stop me now
Cause I don't care
Anymore..."

Back to the original topic - what to do with the anger. *Use it. Feel it and know that its there for a reason.* Its Karma, its God, its the Universe telling you that you have problems that have to be addressed.

Transferred most of the money this morning. Going to go get a new phone later and probably get one for my 11 year old too - to help limit contact with "mom."

I'm just sick right now.

The Plenty of Fish e-mail - well, that was a few months old when I found it.

This **** was FRESH. At least one post from the last ?10 days? suggesting she might have met up with one of these guys. Or at least shared a lengthy conversation with him.

Glad I scheduled a therapy session for today earlier this week.


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## turnera

I'm really sorry. But yeah, feel the anger. You've been too nice for too long. I normally try to keep people together, but she sounds like she's just too flawed.


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## Affaircare

NiceGuy~

I've looked at your wife's Myspace page and I will say that I certainly don't see anything on it that indicates any kind of commitment to you or desire to repair things so she can come home. Virtually everything I see on that site is tempting and sexual, and I don't see any friendships on there that I would call anything other than cyber-sex. I mean, I happen to have a myspace (rarely use it) and on there you'll see my husband, my children, and my GIRL friends who are pro-marriage both honoring mine and their own! 



> Any point in continuing to expose? In this case I'm really just exposing her "public" myspace page.


I would suggest taking screenshots of the myspace as chances are good she will at least try to cover her tracks. She may "hide" it or make it more "mommy-esque" or something to try to be able to claim she's not really doing anything wrong...so I recommend screenshots of it all, and save those as evidence. 

With regard to exposure, I do think it would be wise to expose to family and/or friends who have been thinking you have trust issues and it's all you. HOWEVER, the idea of exposure is to make continuing the lie impossible--so she can't continue to say "We're just friends" and claim nothing was going on. It is blatantly clear on this myspace that if nothing else, she's not behaving in a faithful manner, not forsaking all others, and not giving 100% of her affection and loyalty to you. If nothing else it will explain to others why you've had the gut feeling and that you have been struggling against infidelity all along; it makes it less easy for her to continue the lies; and it gives YOU the peace of mind that you can trust yourself. Bring all the affair/infidelity to light and let the roaches scurry! 

So now you have the truth right in front of you in black and white, and you have no hold's barred proof she's been up to very unfaithful behavior even while she's been hinting about moving home and having sex with you. I'm going to guess that most folks on the site (TAM) will be pretty angry on your behalf and will kind of wonder why you're not giving up, but I also hope you realize some of the frustration you'll see in this thread is because we see you being hurt, over and over. I hope you understand that at least for me, I'm not upset you didn't follow some plan--you did what you could do as you could do it!--but rather, I just do hate to see you being hurt repeatedly like that. 


*****
Finally, regarding your angry outbursts, I do understand your anger, and I have to admit if I were in your place I'd probably blow too. But her bad behavior and bad choices don't give you justification to make bad choices too. So yep you're only human and I sincerely do not judge--just also pointing out to you that you ARE still responsible for your choices and you can choose to express your anger in a way that is appropriate such as not yelling with a loud volume, not calling names, etc. If you were saying that you're okay with lovebusters, it's my job to respect you enough to tell you the truth and call you on it. If I just pretended it was okay for you to make bad choices but not for her ... that would actually be showing you enormous disrespect because I'd be like one of those friends that says, "Oh yeah affairs are fine...do what makes you happy...you deserve it." Nope, sometimes the truth about being a better person is hard to hear but that means I respect you enough to tell you the truth to your face! 

Finally,


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## nice777guy

Thanks Turnera and AC.

Yes - the anger and disrespect won't help me. I don't want to take too much of the blame here - Sunday was my first full blown "outburst" in a few weeks. And even though I used harsh words, I felt I was under control. But it never helps. And I'm still married and will continue to behave as such and treat my wife with as much respect as I would anyone else.

Screenshots - way ahead of you on that one. Took them immediately - hidden and saved.

MIL looked at the page and was "thoroughly disgusted" - sees it as self-destructive behavior. She asked how to help and I referred her to the kids. She can help our girls get through this. She actually asked me if I wanted to go to a ballgame with "the family" this Friday night to help get my mind off of things. Was a very positive gesture. 

I don't think any other exposure is needed at this point. No one who is important really ever doubted me - they could tell something had changed.

After therapy one thing is clear - I need to file. Small chance it will wake her up and get her out of the fog, but I'm not betting on it.


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## turnera

Call MIL back and ask her to do what a mom is supposed to do (but say it in a nice way, lol) - chew her OWN DAUGHTER out for acting immorally and embarrassing the family. 

If there's one person on earth who has the right to do it to your wife, it's her mom.


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## nice777guy

She's tried before - it doesn't work. Wife has been shutting MIL out for quite some time.

And - per discussion with the therapist - I'm best off to keep the focus with the MIL on the kids. If I get too nasty about my wife, my MIL could easily turn against me. But if I focus on getting her to help the kids, I have a strong ally, especially in case of any potential custody issues.

I wish a good chewing out would work, but she's turned away from anyone who has been honest with her.


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## turnera

Very sad. I hope your kids will be ok.


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## nice777guy

I think they will make it. I need to keep my cool and not let things get crazy. Keeping my MIL in the loop will help.

My oldest has said before that she doesn't want mom to come home. And the youngest told MIL that I'm much happier and spend more time with them when mom isn't around.

I'm sure I will be a much happier person and Father once I get through this.


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## Affaircare

NiceGuy~

I'm just going to say this. I am so very sad to see this myspace and hear this news, but I also think it is the wisest move. Whenever a marriage ends, to me it is a tragedy and mourned...yet in this instance I do not see that continuing like this is healthy for you. I also understand your decision that enough is enough. What can we do for you?


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## nice777guy

Thanks AC - just continue to listen once in a while. 

And I'll probably need some advice as to how to move a divorce along - but today I'm just trying to get through the day.


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## Affaircare

I think today would be a VERY good day to take phones off the hook and spend some time with your daughters...and do something playful-ish like coloring with them. Being with your children will give you the courage you need to keep going.


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## nice777guy

First day in more than 15 years without my wedding ring. Feel naked. Meant to take it off yesterday, but old habits die hard.

Wife noticed the naked hand when I dropped off the kids this morning. She texted me "Sad day..." and I replied that I'd had a lot of sad days over the last year.

She's locked down her myspace account - but I've got plenty of print screens and I can still see her main "friend's" page - looks like a real "winner." I think he's unemployed - and he's got a LOT of trashy looking women friends, although its clear that my wife is one of his favorites.

I had asked my wife to watch the kids tonight, but the kids asked if they could stay with Gramma (MIL). MIL is taking them to a ballgame tonight and has invited me to go as well. Wife asked me if I had plans tonight - told her I had a few ideas, but hadn't decided yet.

Yesterday after therapy she asked me how it had gone - I told her I intended to file and that I had moved "our" money into "my account". She was agitated - oh well.

Going today at lunch to order checks and a debit card for "my" new account. Will try to take a day or at least a few hours off next week to find an attorney for consult - mostly just want a couple of hours to ask some questions, largely in relation to custody and any complications that might arise due to her disability issues.

But I intend to file myself if at all possible.

We both agree - in theory - that we would like to get through as much of this without a lot of "legal help" - but I've also told her how hard it will be due to "our" trust issues.

Felt sad after getting her text this morning. Almost broke down in the car. But now that I'm at work, I actually feel a bit optimistic.

Thanks to all for your support.

NG


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## turnera

You're a good person. You will prevail. And you'll find a woman - down the road! - who WILL respect and cherish you. It's hard to see now, but you will.


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## nice777guy

Nice time with my in-laws tonight. They had taken the girls to their family reunion and - as usual - figured I would be the one to come pick them up. They invited me to come over - they grilled out - had some other people over - and I don't think anyone ever called my wife. Kind of strange, kind of nice too. Sending that link out was a good move. Brother in law said he talked to my wife on Friday and that she continues to act like a victim and that he knows that she's a terribly unhappy person who needs to find SOMETHING to do with her life. He also told me that if he was in my shoes, he would have walked away months ago. I know I hear that here - but it sounds a lot different coming from my wife's own brother. They really are good people - too bad my wife has pushed them away as well.

For the first time tonight - when one of the girls asked if we were going to get a divorce - I said I didn't know. Have tried to be super positive with them - but can't do that anymore. Need to figure out soon what and how to tell them.

Good day and good weekend considering all that's been going on.


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## Deejo

They are smarter than you think. They won't be terribly surprised. They will react in direct correlation to how you react. My advice at this point, is that you need to lay things out there - I don't think it is ok to let them believe that this is entirely your responsibility. You have indicated previously that they hold you responsible for their mother not living at home with them.


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## nice777guy

The oldest is VERY sharp - but keeps asking strange questions. Asks if my FIL is going to beat me up if I divorce his daughter. Simply reminded her that "I" was still being invited to family get-togethers after 8 months of separation. She then said she was worried I might get a girlfriend that she likes better than her mom and how that would make mom mad. I explained the He-man Woman Haters club and she stopped asking questions!

Youngest was tired - started getting a bit emotional in the car about how she wanted mom to come home and how we kept extending the lease.

My BIL's ex-wife is what they are thinking of. She was a ***** - from day one no one liked her. So she's no longer invited to things, and people talk badly about her sometimes. My youngest seems to be the only person who misses BIL's ex. She's so sweet (my youngest D). 

I also told them that "if" things didn't work out, I didn't think it would be much different (schedule wise at least) than it is today. I can tell that when we argue, they get a bit upset. But for the most part, I know how much happier I am when there is distance - and they've caught on to that. They know Dad's much happier when Mom's not around - and that I spend more time with them. And they still complain about Mom's laptop and how much Mom watches TV.

The most I've said when the oldest blamed me is that she should know that it isn't that simple. That neither of us is to blame - that we've both made mistakes. 

She'll figure it out one day - probably sooner than I can imagine.


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## turnera

You should tell them the truth. You two are their LIFE. Everything you two do means the world to them. PLEASE just tell them the truth, in an age-appropriate way. They will respect you and thank you for it. And it will help with their anxiety.


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## Affaircare

Hey NiceGuy~

You've been nice and quiet lately so I wanted to check on you and see how it's going. Since the discovery of the page, has there been any change or fall out or ... anything? Regarding your post, you wrote: 



> The oldest is VERY sharp - but keeps asking strange questions. Asks if my FIL is going to beat me up if I divorce his daughter. Simply reminded her that "I" was still being invited to family get-togethers after 8 months of separation. She then said she was worried I might get a girlfriend that she likes better than her mom and how that would make mom mad. I explained the He-man Woman Haters club and she stopped asking questions!


"Sweety, your Grampa and I are not fighting or even mad at each other. Even if your mom and I were to be apart, your Grampa will still be your Grampa and we choose to act kindly even if we were to become not related. So no he's not going to beat me up; we might cry together about it though."

"Sweety, I know you have friends who's moms and dads got divorced and then met and married someone else, and it gets all complicated and weird sometimes doesn't it? But honey your mom will always be your mom no matter who I might like one day. Being a mom is for life, and sometimes moms and their kids disagree or don't get along great, but that's okay. She'll still be mom and you will still be her daughter...AND you can like someone who's in your life treating you nice, okay?" 



> Youngest was tired - started getting a bit emotional in the car about how she wanted mom to come home and how we kept extending the lease.


"Honey, it sounds like you're sad about mom and dad not being together. I'll be honest, I kind of wish it was more like it was in the olden days; we were so happy then weren't we? I'm sad it's not turning out that way too. Would you like to be sad together? I'm staying put and I'll always be here for ya when you feel sad okay?"



> The most I've said when the oldest blamed me is that she should know that it isn't that simple. That neither of us is to blame - that we've both made mistakes.
> 
> She'll figure it out one day - probably sooner than I can imagine.


To some degree this is the best way to go. My kids were youngish when their dad had his affair and we divorced. In their minds the fact he was gone most of their lives didn't strike them as odd and they didn't think it was abnormal in the least. thus, whilst I did not lie to them about the divorce ... I kept it age appropriate and did not explain everything about bipolar, abuse, infidelity either.

Well...years later my youngest had to live with her dad for about a month while I arranged and moved across the country, and here's what she said: "Mom, he wasn't there for most of my life was he? I would say to him 'Dad remember that time I...' and you would say 'Oh yeah we did this and that!' but he said 'No honey I wasn't there I don't remember that.' He was always with that other lady wasn't he?" She was a mid-teen and she put it together on her own and drew her own conclusions about him.


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## nice777guy

Thanks for asking AC. Waiting for the my new debit card and checks to come in the mail. Strange e-mail from my MIL today - somewhat scolding me for my oldest daughter's defiant behavior over the weekend - but she also mentioned that she was planning to have a "sit-down" with my wife once school started and the kids weren't around.

AC - good answers. I have told the girls at times that I'm sad too. I've also told the oldest once or twice that I'm upset about some of the same things she doesn't like about mom - all the time on the laptop and her phone. The oldest mentioned mom's need for "privacy" yesterday - like I said - very observant.

Went to open house to meet their teachers last night. Felt weird. Haven't worn my ring since last Thursday. Started to introduce my wife as...well... my wife - but I just kind of froze and let her introduce herself as "A's" mom.

We were "talking" about custody this weekend - she seems to think that girls need their mom and that we should do a 50/50 split. I asked why we weren't doing that already.

She mentioned in passing today that she didn't want to do "that thing." I asked her if she had a plan - but she didn't answer.

Still haven't called an attorney - was planning to do so yesterday but was too busy.

A lot in my head - not moving as fast, but doing OK I guess.

Still a lot of anger. This isn't what I signed up for and its going to hurt us all.


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## nice777guy

Wife has expressed a desire for reconciliation.

If the first step is usually a "no contact" letter, I'm thinking I'll request that my wife initiate an ad campaign with billboards and a lot of internet ads.

She says she wants the slate wiped clean. I considered, then said I don't think that is humanly possible, but that we might have a chance if she can prove to me that her current actions have changed.

She doesn't like our marriage therapist - feels she's taken my side. So I sent her a list of therapists yesterday that are approved by my healthcare provider. Hope she finds a good one this time.

Keep thinking of DABDA
Denial
Anger
Bargaining
Depression
Acceptance

Still need to talk to an attorney, but I have made most of the necessary financial changes.

I think our "discussion" over the weekend about child custody gave her a good scare. She claims 50/50 is only fair. I question why she hasn't cared about 50/50 until it becomes a part of the child support calculation. She has since told me her opinion over and over that the Mom always wins - complete with ONE example where a disabled, out of work father (who was just kicked out of his sister's basement for stealing) somehow lost his custody battle with his wife. (no - this isn't one of her boyfriends - its a brother of a friend - but this loser did kiss her on New Year's day before he was kicked out of his sister's basement)

Its amazing though how quickly I can get sucked back into Bargaining again. At least now I coach myself out of it a bit quicker.

Still trying to come to some sort of Acceptance though. Acceptance that some of this is simply out of my control. Acceptance that the dreams and plans I had a year ago will need to be changed to fit my new reality. Acceptance that I WILL need help from an attorney - and it will cost money. Money that I had hoped would be go into a college fund, or a family vacation.

Just venting a bit. Mostly the little joke about the billboard and internet ad campaign popped into my head and I had no one else to share it with.

Oddly, I also actually feel "depressed" for the first time. I've been down - and I've been angry - but today has been different.


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## turnera

Well, I'm here to tell you that I am VERY proud of you. It's been a hard road, and you fought long and hard to do the right thing. In the end, you may not want to hear this, but I can't wait for you to get out into the dating scene so you can see what a real woman who will love you and support you and make YOU feel good is like.


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## Affaircare

I would suggest a bit of caution there NiceGuy. She has talked reconciliation before with little or no intent to change; she just doesn't seem to want to pay the price for her choices. She didn't realize she wouldn't get alimony from you or that she'd lose more than half her time with her children. 

And oh let's see. You have already set a precedent with the kids staying with you, sleeping at your house, and going by her after school for a few hours until you get home from work. She has already set a precedent that she is medically incapable of caring for the kids by herself. So yeah...about 99.99% chance the judge would order it to continue "AS IS." Unlike her "one example" you are not now and have not been disabled, you are not now and have not been unemployed, you are not now and have not been acting impulsively or immorally (stealing), and you have provided a stable environment for your children. Using her own example, SHE is more likely to lose custody! Mom's do not "always win" if the dad is ACTING like the better parent, and you can prove it!

Suddenly she's realizing all this flirty and fooling around with every guy on the internet might be costly! 

I would suggest giving her the chance to PROVE TO YOU that she means it by changing first and showing you with actions. Meanwhile, I'd sure as shooting continue down the path you've been heading down to protect yourself financially and legally.


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## nice777guy

Turnera - no hurry to date...He-Man Woman Hater's Club President looking for new members right now!!!

AC - gotcha. She's had the chance to prove this all along. I've never shut her out or truly pushed her away. But with every lie and betrayal it becomes so much harder to believe this has a snowball's chance in hell.

I've told her I don't want to discuss "us" unless its via e-mail or with a reasonable third party (her mother, a close friend, a new therapist or our existing one).

I gave her the list of therapists. We'll see what she does with it. I will go if she makes the appointment.

She asked if she could stay over Sunday night - I told her that I was not comfortable with it - not until we've worked through some of this mess.

And yes - she became VERY emotional about wanting the kids all of a sudden. With the schedule we established last school year she had them Friday nights. Last week I needed a break, so I "reminded" her of our previously agreed arrangement. This week I'm not going to say anything - just sit back and see if she packs them a bag and takes them without a "reminder." 

I argued back a bit on Saturday, but Sunday I took "MEM's" advice - let her ramble a bit, and then said "OK - but I still disagree." Was much more effective.


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## MEM2020

I am not well versed however I thought the courts would typically try to keep the existing routine. So if you have been the primary care giver she will have a tough time suddenly arguing she should get them as the primary when she has spent so little time caring for them for the last year. 

Recall the conversation we had. No one cares how you feel, they sure do care about what you are going to do. 

Suddenly your financial support is about to disappear and she wants to reconcile. And that might be totally genuine. Up until now she was getting to have her cake and eat it. Now she must choose. 

I sincerely pray for you NG that you give her your list of non-negotiable points and you stick with them without making any concessions. 

Are you actually willing to reconcile without her sharing her facebook contents and the full reality of what she has done? I sure hope not. 

I have this saying "I can forgive just about anything, but you have to ask." If she is trying to gloss over all this - I think that is 100 percent unfair to you. And if you reconcile without her showing you the respect of true contrition - your history will repeat itself. 




nice777guy said:


> Turnera - no hurry to date...He-Man Woman Hater's Club President looking for new members right now!!!
> 
> AC - gotcha. She's had the chance to prove this all along. I've never shut her out or truly pushed her away. But with every lie and betrayal it becomes so much harder to believe this has a snowball's chance in hell.
> 
> I've told her I don't want to discuss "us" unless its via e-mail or with a reasonable third party (her mother, a close friend, a new therapist or our existing one).
> 
> I gave her the list of therapists. We'll see what she does with it. I will go if she makes the appointment.
> 
> She asked if she could stay over Sunday night - I told her that I was not comfortable with it - not until we've worked through some of this mess.
> 
> And yes - she became VERY emotional about wanting the kids all of a sudden. With the schedule we established last school year she had them Friday nights. Last week I needed a break, so I "reminded" her of our previously agreed arrangement. This week I'm not going to say anything - just sit back and see if she packs them a bag and takes them without a "reminder."
> 
> I argued back a bit on Saturday, but Sunday I took "MEM's" advice - let her ramble a bit, and then say "OK - but I still disagree." Was much more effective.


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## nice777guy

MEM11363 said:


> I sincerely pray for you NG that you give her your list of non-negotiable points and you stick with them without making any concessions.
> 
> Are you actually willing to reconcile without her sharing her facebook contents and the full reality of what she has done? I sure hope not.
> 
> I have this saying "I can forgive just about anything, but you have to ask." If she is trying to gloss over all this - I think that is 100 percent unfair to you. And if you reconcile without her showing you the respect of true contrition - your history will repeat itself.


MEM - unless she makes a therapy appointment, we're done. I don't know how WE can get past this without professional help. 

Just based on what I know, I will have a very hard time wiping the slate clean, as she's requested. I don't think its healthy to try to move on without asking the types of questions you're talking about, and I doubt that a decent marriage therapist would encourage me to just let it all go without some discussion.

I have seen some positive signs the last few days. She was working crossword puzzles on Saturday when I picked the girls up. They had complained about the amount of time she had been on her laptop, so she actually put it away. Sounds like she's kept it out of their site for most of the week. She was playing a board game with the youngest tonight when I picked them up.

She also cried and told me she loved me tonight as I was leaving - a nice long hug.

Going to take more than a decent week to fix things. I'm not optimistic, but I'm open to the possibility that she might be waking up, and I'm open to the idea that this can still be fixed with a lot of hard work and effort.

Thanks again to all for your support.


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## MEM2020

The hardest thing in the world - is to underweight the frozen past and overweight the promise of tomorrow. 

So I believe - if it were me - I would tell her that the past is going to be addressed via a ripping the band aid off approach off. A brief period of brutal - no holds barred honesty on both sides. And AFTER that, the focus will quickly turn forward. 

While I would demand revelation and contrition - after a long weekend or a week of grieving I would turn forward and focus on rebuilding. But I personally would not bother to attend counseling UNLESS my W was willing to offer the full transparency that you have asked for on a GO FORWARD basis. I would be way more determined that there be no secured accounts, email/FB/etc. - no locked phones - etc. Because revelation will hurt, but the pain will fade. But the anxiety caused by her secretive lifestyle will only grow unless she goes into open book mode. FYI - I also feel that your willingness to do this in reverse (giving her access to your accounts) makes it even more of a no brainer for reconciling. 

By the way - my W rates me zero on a 1 to 10 scale of "controlling" and I would demand forward transparency if I were in your situation. It isn't about control. I have zero desire to control her. It is about ME having a full understanding of where our marriage is. And yes - post affair or affairs I damn well would demand that understanding. If she wants to leave, that is ok. But she can't stay and cheat. 

Unreserved transparency is the ultimate litmus test of your wifes true intentions. If she plans to be faithful - she won't fight it. If she wants to leave the door open to more nonsense she will fight you hard on this point. 

Oh - and this is not a "lets see what the counselor says" line item. Counselors are people. MANY of them will try to find a middle ground you can both live with. That will be a disaster. There is no middle ground on trust in a post affair world. She either acts fully in good faith and you live day to day without losing your mind, or she wants some closed rooms to do her "thing" if she feels like it. This is not a point you need a counselor to referee in my opinion. 

And if you get the "I am only doing this under extreme duress" you are likely to find it a hollow victory. If she cannot see that this is a "fair and decent" thing to do to show commitment and love, your reconciliation may be difficult.



nice777guy said:


> MEM - unless she makes a therapy appointment, we're done. I don't know how WE can get past this without professional help.
> 
> Just based on what I know, I will have a very hard time wiping the slate clean, as she's requested. I don't think its healthy to try to move on without asking the types of questions you're talking about, and I doubt that a decent marriage therapist would encourage me to just let it all go without some discussion.
> 
> I have seen some positive signs the last few days. She was working crossword puzzles on Saturday when I picked the girls up. They had complained about the amount of time she had been on her laptop, so she actually put it away. Sounds like she's kept it out of their site for most of the week. She was playing a board game with the youngest tonight when I picked them up.
> 
> She also cried and told me she loved me tonight as I was leaving - a nice long hug.
> 
> Going to take more than a decent week to fix things. I'm not optimistic, but I'm open to the possibility that she might be waking up, and I'm open to the idea that this can still be fixed with a lot of hard work and effort.
> 
> Thanks again to all for your support.


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## AFEH

Your wife wants to come back to and let bygones be bygones, it’s all water under the bridge type of thing. She’s still in the land of the fairies and she may never come out of it.

If you've achieved some form of stable environment for yourself and your children, why not now continue with that and stay separated from your wife for 6 months. Just tell how that’s the way you want to do things. Then in six months you’ll get back to her and let her know what your decision is, stay together or divorce and what she needs to do to stay married to you.

That six months will enable you to get yourself out of anger and resentment and back to internal peace and harmony. It’ll take some work but you’ll get there. If like me you may well find that the anger and resentment “dissipates” over time but there are things we can do to help it on it’s way.

I think the big question to ask yourself is “Can I forgive my wife for the way she abused me and my family?”. You may well not know the answer to that question until you have got back to inner peace and harmony. But if you find you cannot forgive your wife and do get back with her then there’s no way it will work simply because you will be an angry and resentful person and will end up being a “bitter man”.

I think it’s ok not to forgive. But I don’t think it ok not to forgive and carry on living with the person.

In six months of separation you will be able to observe your wife's behaviour "from afar", it's truly surprising what's "seen" just through their behaviour. You will come to understand the type of woman she truly is and can factor that into your judgement about yours and your children's future life in six months time.

Bob


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## nice777guy

MEM - very well put.

We had transparency BEFORE this mess. It was never a demand or a control issue. We got married, shared passwords, trusted each other - couldn't have felt more natural.

So yes - transparency going forward is critical. I've told her many times that neither of us will want to live together if I can't trust her.

I do find myself wondering if I could deal with moving forward without knowing all of the answers to the past. Not sure I could, but I'm thinking about it. I don't think it would be healthy. But there's also no guarantee she would tell me the truth.

As I've said to her many times, I don't see any easy path. What I thought I wanted - for now - is gone.

Choices are basically:
- keep up this "un-divorce" type situation; it has small financial benefits, hadn't been too hard on the kids (until recently); no big period of intense pain - but the pain would be drawn out over a longer period of time; no closure;

- Divorce - I hate the idea; money down the drain; feeling like a failure; intense moments arguing over the kids and money

- Reconciliation - working through the hurt; wondering if I can trust; trying to rebuild something when so much damage has been done

None of these involve a trip to Disney, a new home, a new car. 

Divorce "might" bring some finality to things - but we would have to be able to agree on things to prevent it from being long, drawn out and expensive. And we would still have to co-parent together - youngest is 8.

That's really where the anger comes from - the idea that she's painted both of us into a corner with no good options available.

I'm not even real sure why I'm talking about it, because I don't see a happy ending ahead. I know where I stand and don't have the desire to fight for her like I did six months or a year ago.

But if she's sorry and is willing to fight for me - well - I just don't know anymore.


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## nice777guy

Bob - interesting ideas. I'm not sure about forgiveness. She would have to stop doing damage before I could truly forgive. Given that our last blow-up over her Myspace page was about 2 weeks ago, I'm not sure that she's truly stopped yet. I've just quit "snooping" and asking questions.

I "could" forgive if I move on and distance myself. But that would be for more selfish reasons.


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## turnera

I COMPLETELY agree that you should not let her home for at least 6 months. I often tell women this, about the men they've married who turned out to be abusive or manipulative. If they can survive on their own for six months and STILL work on themselves and become the man they should be, then MAYBE they should get to come home.

BUT...if they are not willing to put in the six months of 'work' then they aren't really serious about the marriage, are they? They're just seeking convenience.


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## AFEH

nice777guy said:


> Bob - interesting ideas. I'm not sure about forgiveness. She would have to stop doing damage before I could truly forgive. Given that our last blow-up over her Myspace page was about 2 weeks ago, I'm not sure that she's truly stopped yet. I've just quit "snooping" and asking questions.
> 
> I "could" forgive if I move on and distance myself. But that would be for more selfish reasons.


Nice Guy,
This is the time for Being Selfish! BE SELFISH. Protect yourself from further abuse. If you can't take exceptionally good care of yourself how are you going to take care of those that are dependent upon you. Make yourself Number 1 in your life.

With six months separation you are delaying your Judgement and it's a Judgement you have to make that will affect the rest of your life.

In six months I can more or less guarantee you that you will Know if she has or hasn't in your words "stopped doing damage".

You cannot change your wife, forget about that stuff. Only your wife can change herself. In six months time you will know if she has or hasn't changed herself. If she has, then you can look at the changes and see if they're acceptable to you or not.

Bob


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## turnera

Exactly. And if she's not willing to put in six months 'work' to prove to you that she is worthy...then she isn't.


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## nice777guy

Bob - just to clarify....I don't think I can forgive her if she's around, hurting me.

If she was gone, the forgiveness would be for me to heal my own soul and be able to move forward. To rid myself of the resentment. It would likely be internal - not sure I would tell her she was forgiven - it wouldn't be to make her feel better.

And I have to admit that my first instinct is that 6 more months of "limbo" sounds like hell. I understand your point - its kind of what I've been doing - and I'm not sure if I can do it much longer.

Another thing that's crossed my mind - she's trying to buy some time and get closer to me and the kids so that she'll eventually have a better shot at custody. Not sure if I'm right. And if I am right, maybe that's OK. I'm not dying to be a single dad - I just want what's best for my kids. If my wife can refocus herself and at least become a better parent, then custody wouldn't be such a large issue. I wish my kids had a stronger female presence in their lives - and hope they feel there is unconditional love there. So maybe she'll become a better parent even if she never becomes a better wife.

Getting real tired of the roller coaster.

Have a chance for a day off tomorrow. Part of me thinks it would be a good chance to "talk" to my wife. But a much larger part thinks I'll just take it off and not tell anyone.


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## AFEH

Nice Guy,
There is absolutely no need to tell the other person they are forgiven, no need at all. In fact it can bring further abuse if you tell the other person you’ve forgiven them. Usually the abuse comes in the form of denial “I didn’t do anything” or minimising “You’re so sensitive, you shouldn’t feel that way” which is just another form of denial of the impact of what they have done. Those words come from people who a) have no empathy and b) do not accept responsibility for their behaviour.

Forgiveness is for you and you alone. For you, forgiving prevents you from becoming one of “life’s victims” and a bitter and resentful person, there are many of those around. They are truly toxic people.

You have a massive trust issue with your wife which is exceptionally understandable. If you stay with her and if you don’t get forced through this loop yet again in a year or twos time, I reckon your distrust will last for at least another ten years. That’s the real crop for us in these situations.

“Getting real tired of the roller coaster”. That was me, I got off the bloody thing. But unlike you I didn’t have dependent children at the time. I did have to go through this stuff at the time I had dependent children so I do truly know what it’s like. I didn’t want my sons to be brought up without me, so I got through it one way or another.

Take your day off. Treat yourself. Go hike up a mountain, walk through a forest, get yourself away from all that you know. Pray for yourself in whatever form your prayers come, pray for peace and harmony in your life. Answers will come to you.

Bob


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## OH-WHY-O?

Nice Guy - I am in exactly the same situation right now. My H had an affair, claims he ended it, but he is still deep in affair fog and is playing the victim. We have separated, he is staying on a friend's floor or in another friend's basement. He sees the kids a couple times a week. 

I am a wreck. I have committed to this marriage, but he hasn't. And each time I talk to him, it becomes more clear that he has changed into someone I do not know. He has made NO attempts at reconciliation. He thinks he can be a good dad on his own, which is unlikely, since I have done EVERYTHING for this man for 17 years. 

My anger is starting to build. I hate what he has done to me and our family. I hate that he has disrespected me and lied to me more times than I can count. I hate the person he has become. It is easier for me to deal with when I don't see or talk to him for a couple of days. But every time I get a text or call, or he stops in to see the boys, I'm right back at square one. I feel like a loser because I can't yet bring myself to kick him to the curb. I'm not afraid to be alone - I have an incredible support system, which includes his family. I just want my marriage back. But each day that goes by, I see that he does not want me. 

I've been working out a lot to help with the stress. It helps a little. But the nights are rough. I think I'm in the Depression stage of DABDA. But maybe that means that Acceptance is right around the corner and I can fully understand that he made these terrible choices and I am better off without him. He is "that" guy - the cheater, the liar. He is not the guy I married. 

I have been in touch with an attorney, but even his advice was to wait awhile until the emotions settle. I know I can't rush into divorce, especially for the sake of my children, but I want this pain to end!

I feel for you, Nice Guy. We didn't deserve this. Best of luck to you.


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## nice777guy

I'm pissed again - didn't take long. Apparently things she did 2 weeks ago are completely off limits for discussion. She truly wants a "clean slate". I don't think its humanly possible on my part.

Still waiting on a time and date for that therapy session...

Still looking around town for the billboards...

And her friend has COMPLETELY assured her that she will get 50/50 custody. If her friend was a lawyer, I'd give a ****. For now, I'll stick with MEM's very effective "I disagree".

Oh - and I'm childish for sending information to her Mother. Well - she wants me to believe that I am anyway. Seems much more childish to me to DATE when you are MARRIED. But hey, what do I know.

The kids at dinner did actually say that Mom has not been using her laptop much lately - some days not at all. That's good news.

Venting...thanks for listening.


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## AFEH

Wanting to start from a completely clean slate is very indicative that she will not look inside herself, see where she went wrong and take responsibility for her actions and the pain they caused you. It means she will never be remorseful for her abusive actions, you will not see remorse from her. And because she is avoiding feeling the pain of her actions she is ever so likely to repeat the whole thing over again.

It’s very easy to see why that is not tolerable for you.

Bob


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## MEM2020

If it was me I would email her my "short list" of what is needed for me to even consider going to counseling. If she isn't going to be transparent, or address the past at all, then counseling is just a tactic to see if she can get a therapist to convince you to make concessions that you have no interest in. 

I have found that when I briefly state my intentions, then firmly begin to execute THAT is when I get the best response. Maybe she will fold the day before the papers are finalized. Maybe never. But she is most likely to behave best if she believes NG means business. She has interpreted his patience to date as weakness. 




nice777guy said:


> I'm pissed again - didn't take long. Apparently things she did 2 weeks ago are completely off limits for discussion. She truly wants a "clean slate". I don't think its humanly possible on my part.
> 
> Still waiting on a time and date for that therapy session...
> 
> Still looking around town for the billboards...
> 
> And her friend has COMPLETELY assured her that she will get 50/50 custody. If her friend was a lawyer, I'd give a ****. For now, I'll stick with MEM's very effective "I disagree".
> 
> Oh - and I'm childish for sending information to her Mother. Well - she wants me to believe that I am anyway. Seems much more childish to me to DATE when you are MARRIED. But hey, what do I know.
> 
> The kids at dinner did actually say that Mom has not been using her laptop much lately - some days not at all. That's good news.
> 
> Venting...thanks for listening.


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## nice777guy

MEM - only thing I would say is that I've been incredibly consistent and repetitious about what I need. She knows what needs to be done - at least in my eyes. No need to send her any more lists.

But - agreeing again - divorce papers may be the only way to truly put some reality back into this situation.


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## MEM2020

NG,
I agree you have been totally consistent. And you have defined and enforced a good set of boundaries. And you should feel good about that - really good. The guy you were 24 months ago is completely different than the guy you are now. 

With that said she still believes in her heart that she can have you back whenever she wants. I am not saying that is true. I am saying it is what she believes. And until THAT changes, you are deadlocked. And I am not suggesting a hard line in the sand. Just a steady relentless move towards legal termination. It may be that AFTER you divorce she comes back to you and says "I really messed up - can I have a second chance". Or it may be that your determination simply causes her to treat you better post divorce - and that is very important as you will interact a lot via the kids. 

Suffice to say that despite all your growth, her treatment of you continues to be far far below what you find acceptable. This stance that anything older than 2 weeks is out of bounds reflects a frightening lack of respect. It also raises the question of her very recent behavior. 

At this point two things will create an environment without ambiguity. Filing papers and going to limited communication. 





nice777guy said:


> MEM - only thing I would say is that I've been incredibly consistent and repetitious about what I need. She knows what needs to be done - at least in my eyes. No need to send her any more lists.
> 
> But - agreeing again - divorce papers may be the only way to truly put some reality back into this situation.


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## turnera

You don't need her. You WANT her.

But you don't even WANT her, if it ends up harming you. Right?


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## unbelievable

You're supposed to feel hurt and anger. You're mourning the death of a relationship that was important to you. It gets better and you can use the new arrangement as an opportunity for you to work on "you", concentrate on the kids, etc. You've probably wasted enough of your life doing battle. You could write out your text messages and just delete them. You get some of the same therapeutic benefit but without the police showing up at your house talking to you about stalking.


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## nice777guy

Turnera - don't we all want things that we know are bad for us? And yes - I do still want her, and I want my life set back to where it was a year ago.

Spent some good quality time together over the weekend - with and without the kids - and it felt good.

She has agreed to go back to see our therapist Tomorrow night.

IF she started making the proper changes going forward (very, very big IF) - how important is it to deal with the past? She claims to want a "clean slate" - and I totally understand - she just wants to gloss over all the hurt she's caused. She doesn't want to help clean up the mess she's made.

I think its completely unreasonable and very unhealthy - for the marriage and for myself - to just let it all go and try to move forward while acting as if everything is OK.

But I have to admit, it would be tempting to give it a shot - tempting to TRY and ingore the last year like a bad dream - *IF* she did the right things going forward.

How important are the apologies? What do I gain by asking her questions about what has already happened - whether a week ago or a year ago? Does she need to tell me EVERYTHING - or only go into further detail about the things that I've found or have strong suspicions about?

Just thinking out loud - looking for some input - and some "connection" from people who understand.

Status is somewhere in between Bargaining and Depression right now - leaning heavily towards Depression. Focus and energy at work has improved slightly - but I go home and feel like I've hit a brick wall.

Thanks,

NG


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## turnera

> she just wants to gloss over all the hurt she's caused. She doesn't want to help clean up the mess she's made.


This just proves that she is still as selfish as ever. She doesn't care if she is hurting YOU. She is just protecting HERSELF.

My view - and IMO it has been proved right over and over and over in all the years I've been helping people - is that if a cheater does NOT approach reconciliation with 100% *humility*, your marriage is doomed.

What does humility look like? It looks like total embarrassment. Ability to see what YOU are going through and discuss it to prove it. Willingness and ability to OWN her actions, to be ashamed of them, to speak them out loud and tell you that she is a heel and a jerk and selfish and that she wants to change. 

It's selfishness that allowed her to be this way - until she's at the point where she SEES that, and doesn't LIKE what she sees, she will be just a thought away from cheating again and again, and you will never have a moment's peace.

Hold strong. WAIT her out. 

Honestly, she needs to hit rock bottom. She needs to be a quivering mass of sorrow and pain and embarrassment and questioning why she did what she did.

If she can't reach that, you should never trust her.


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## nice777guy

Heard Dr. Phil say recently that the best predictor of future behavior is relevant, recent behavior.

I've had a tendency of dominating our therapy sessions. Tomorrow night I'm planning to simply say that I think this "clean slate" thing is totally bogus and selfish. Expect my wife to make 100 excuses - to which I will try to calmly respond "I disagree" and ask the therapist - "What do you think?"

One thing that my wife does well is isolate me. She knows I don't like to talk to people - tries to "shame me" when I do. So lately, I've quit arguing - tell her I disagree - tell her that it seems we are "stuck" in our positions - and that I would prefer to have these types of discussions in therapy.

Not sure if this is a "good" sign or just stupid - but I was the one who kept saying "I'm done" last night when she tried explaining her "clean slate" theory. Its based on the idea that she's really done nothing wrong. I disagree.


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## turnera

Again, she makes NO attempt to care about YOUR feelings. 

Until she starts talking about how YOU feel, stay clear of her except in counseling.


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## MEM2020

You cannot have true love without respect. You cannot expect fidelity without respect. You will NEVER feel trust or genuine emotional comfort from your W without respect. 

Her determination to rejoin the marriage without showing you respect is ALL about her desire to continue behaving in a very one sided manner. 

I know I am just some guy on the internet but every one of my close relationships (including my W) are based on the golden rule and embedded in that a deep level of mutual respect. 

NG - until you do whatever it is that you need to do in this relationship to demand respect you aren't going to progress. I believe 100 percent that you DESERVE it but sadly sometimes that is not enough. Sometimes you have to demand what is rightfully yours. This is one of those times. 




nice777guy said:


> Heard Dr. Phil say recently that the best predictor of future behavior is relevant, recent behavior.
> 
> I've had a tendency of dominating our therapy sessions. Tomorrow night I'm planning to simply say that I think this "clean slate" thing is totally bogus and selfish. Expect my wife to make 100 excuses - to which I will try to calmly respond "I disagree" and ask the therapist - "What do you think?"
> 
> One thing that my wife does well is isolate me. She knows I don't like to talk to people - tries to "shame me" when I do. So lately, I've quit arguing - tell her I disagree - tell her that it seems we are "stuck" in our positions - and that I would prefer to have these types of discussions in therapy.
> 
> Not sure if this is a "good" sign or just stupid - but I was the one who kept saying "I'm done" last night when she tried explaining her "clean slate" theory. Its based on the idea that she's really done nothing wrong. I disagree.


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## Affaircare

Let me just explain something here. I think there are two different ways this could be interpreted: 

*1) She's apologetic but afraid*. Let's imagine that your disloyal wife has come to her senses, and she realizes the things she's done. She knows it was wrong; she feels like a heel; and her actions even demonstrate that she realizes the harm she's done and she takes personal responsibility (meaning she doesn't blame you). From this point forward, she's decided on her own to give you access to her internet accounts, turn off the internet for a year, turn off her cell phone, and turn over a new leaf. BUT she is afraid that she made a big mistake and it's going to be held over her head for forever. It's going to come up in fights for forever so you can get your own way; she'll never live it down; and you'll call her names that hurt to core because she was dumb and made some pretty major mistakes. That's scenario #1. 

*2) She's avoiding facing the consequences.* Let's imagine that your disloyal wife is still completely unable to admit she did anything wrong, and she has no clue or empathy for the utter destruction her choices have caused for others. She doesn't say anything she did was wrong; she feels entitled but she has to "put up with your rules" or she loses her free ride; and her actions even demonstrate that she does not care one bit about the harm she's done--nor does she take personal responsibility (meaning she blames you for her choices). From this point forward, she had no intention of allowing you access to ANYTHING, continues to hide things and won't do anything differently, continues to hide chat and texts on her cell, and basically acts like she really just wants things to continue the way they are. BUT she is afraid that she made a big mistake and she's going to actually have to pay the piper for the choices she's made. She wants to avoid personal responsibility and avoid changing herself and avoid admitting wrong doing...so she hasn't really changed, she's just trying to pull every trick she can to avoid having to choose between having her cake and eating it too. That's scenario #2. 

I believe there is a VAST difference between "a clean slate" for scenario #1 and scenario #2. In scenario #1, I do suggest setting up some mutually agreed upon boundaries for both of you (things like some way of establishing No Contact, having access to emails and accounts to verify honesty, etc.), and possibly something like "I'll ask you one question a day and you'll answer fully and honestly, and after one month I'll stop asking." For scenario #1, the offer for a clean slate is closer to reasonable because what the disloyal is saying is "I messed up, I get it! Please don't embarrass me further or hold it against me!" Vengeance is not ours to take, and it is reasonable for a person who realizes their mistake to ask their spouse for undeserved grace. I have to admit though, I think that as a general rule a disloyal who is more like scenario #1 would also understand that they have some rebuilding to do and some amends to make--and they are probably NOT avoid the consequences, just asking for some grace (that they be allowed some dignity) while they pay the consequences. In scenario #1, I would say if actions match words and there is some proof over time of turning over a new leaf and transparency--then I'd ask the loyal to do their best to offer "a clean slate," to act out of forgiveness, and to look to the present and future as much as they possibly can. I would also clarify that does NOT let the disloyal off the hook for helping you (the loyal) deal with and get through what you have to deal with. Make sense?

In scenario #2, though, that disloyal is not acting from a place of admitting they did wrong and wanting to work it out or make amends. That disloyal want to ignore what they did wrong, sweep it under a rug, and avoid experiencing the consequences of their choices. For a disloyal in scenario #2, I don't think the option for "a clean slate" makes as much sense because what they are asking for really is "Please don't make me pay the price for the things I decided to do" and the motivation is not saving dignity but avoiding, blame shifting, deflecting, and covering up the truth. Thus in scenario #2 I would say that the loyal spouse can still be gracious and not rub their face in it (so to speak) but I would think I'd recommend continuing with the consequences until you see actions matching words, evidence of turning over a new leaf, and transparency. Unless a disloyal is able to look at themselves, take personal responsibility for what they chose, and work on themselves to do differently--they will likely "do the same" and it will either happen again or they'll never quit. 

So NiceGuy, I'd say determine if your wife is scenario #1 or scenario #2. If she is NOT changing, NOT being transparent voluntarily, and NOT taking responsibility for her actions, I would probably say a clean slate is not a request for "forgiveness" but an attempt to cover up. Thus my conclusion would be to continue with the consequences, don't financially support her, continue with child support/custody type documents at least, and when you hear her admitting she was wrong, and see her changing and being transparent and taking responsibility for her own actions THEN offer her that "clean slate" out of your gracious heart.


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## AFEH

NiceGuy,
I reckon the majority of people here know you as a good man. I don’t mean that derogatively, not at all. You’re loaded with the two things that make us human, empathy and compassion for other people. I can’t imagine that you’d hurt another human being or animal deliberately. But if you found out later that through your everyday actions you had hurt someone you would be remorseful, the amount of remorse you would feel would be dependent upon the amount you’d hurt the other person. Why would you feel remorseful? Because you have empathy and compassion for other people.

But there are people in the world that are very different to you. What’s the difference? They simply do not have the empathy and compassion “chip” for other people. They do though have them for themselves. These people label themselves as “victims” and can feel remorse, but that remorse is for themselves and nobody else. It’s a tough one to get your head around.

People who don’t have empathy and compassion for others are sometimes called sociopaths, psychopaths or narcissistic. These people just don’t seem to “care” about the hurt they’ve caused another person and are totally incapable of being remorseful about the hurt they’ve caused.

As a human being you need to know your wife both knows what she’s done is wrong, she needs to know just how much she has hurt you and she needs to show you she is very remorseful just as Turnera has written. I don’t think you know that in your head though as yet. You know it in your heart and soul, it’s a gut feeling for you. These things are telling you there is something very wrong in the situation and as yet you don’t know if it is either something wrong with you or something wrong with your wife.

I’m here to tell you that there is nothing wrong with you. I’m here to tell you that there is something very wrong with your wife. She has no empathy and she has no compassion. There ain’t much you can do about that.

Bob


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## AFEH

I used to think on it this way. The criminal justice system passes either a lenient or strong sentence to different people for the same crime.

Take burglary as an example. If the person found guilty demonstrates guilt and remorse for their actions they get a reduced sentenced. In a way they have learnt their own lesson and are given a reduced sentence to reflect that. These people have empathy and compassion for other people and know they did wrong and made a mistake.

Those that insist on their innocence in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary and do not demonstrate guilt or remorse get a greater sentence in the hope that it will teach them a lesson that they haven’t learnt themselves. These people do not have empathy and compassion for other people, just for themselves. They are just incapable of learning, they don’t want to learn and think the whole world is against them, this is the “victims” world.

The former get a reduced sentenced because “They know what they did was wrong and are both feeling guilty and remorseful about it”. The latter gets a stronger sentence in the hope that it will teach them a lesson they’re incapable of learning themselves.

Bob


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## AFEH

Right now you’re in what I think of as the “perceiving mode”. You’re just seeing and feeling what’s happening. But unlike the rest of us you are doing that in first person mode, you are “living it” and right in the middle of it. It’s an exceptionally emotional time for you and I know you know that.

On the other hand while the rest of us are in perception mode, some of us are feeling it through our empathy and compassion for you but we’re in third person mode. While we feel emotions for you, probably in some cases the same as you are but nowhere near as strong and as deep or for so long. Some of also made our judgement about your situation a while back.

One day you will switch to “judgement mode”. When you are in that mode, like the judge in a court, you will make your judgement. At the moment you’re probably feeling persecuted by your wife. You simply cannot understand how she can hurt you so much, why she is doing it and thinks she can get away with it. One day you will have had enough of your wife’s persecution of you, you will stop trying to “rescue her from herself” and you will turn into the persecutor. Recognise that point, recognise that change in yourself. It is the time when the Man in you says “enough is enough, I will not take anymore”. It’s the time when the end is the end. It’s the time when you’ve stopped perceiving and made your judgement.



It is the time when you quite literally fear further future abuse from your wife. In order to prevent future abuse and the pain that comes with it you will become Intolerant of your wife’s behaviour, her abuse of the Man you are and the pain it causes you. After you’ve become intolerant you will erect your Personal Boundaries and you will tell your wife what you will no longer tolerate. You will just say “I will not tolerate that behaviour”. That’s all you will say and she will know deep inside of her she can longer get away with what she’s done and what she’s doing, now or in the future. She will know the Man in you has made his Judgement.

Bob


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## nice777guy

Thanks again – as always – for the great advice.

Turnera – her not wanting to end the argument actually seemed like a good thing to me. She was willing to have a discussion - seems like an improvement over indifference.

MEM – I feel like I have one of two ways to earn respect. The first is to work on myself more aggressively – must admit that I’ve been depressed more so lately, so this sounds hard right now. The other option would be to file – have her served. She doesn’t really think I’ll do it – and so far she’s been right. I guess I really need to do both at this point.

AC – I DO think she’s afraid of losing the convenience of the marriage, and also afraid of being embarrassed. She’s said that she’s afraid to share things with me because she never knows when I’ll send something to her mother or discuss it with a friend. She’s also said that if we get divorced she’ll feel like a failure – like she let people down. 

I don’t think she’s remorseful or feels responsible. And I don’t think she intends to give me transparency. Maybe I’ll find out tonight.

Bob – like so many other people that come here, what drives me crazy is that my wife USED to have that compassion chip. Then - a little more than a year ago after 14.5 years of marriage - something just flipped.

And its not so much that I fear her. I just see two paths.

The first – she comes to her senses, moves home, and things are back to normal. We can work on the house, start saving aggressively for college, take the kids to Disney – be the big happy family that I want us to be.

The second path – Divorce. Money goes to attorneys – gets divided. No Disney – no work on the house. More ugliness and arguments.

The contrast is so great - I don’t want to give up on the Happy Family dream when some days it feels like its within my reach again.


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## turnera

NG, tell me again what you're doing for counseling? Because right now, you sound like the same old guy who came here who was willing to give his wife whatever she demanded, just to keep her. Or just one step away from it. 

A counselor should be helping you firm up your boundaries - what you absolutely have to have in a partner, and stick up for them. 

You need some backup, friend.


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## nice777guy

I think part of it is that I'm feeling worn down by all of this.

Counseling - seeing the person who "was" our marriage therapist. She's been helping. Encouraged me to file or at least talk to an attorney (nope, haven't done it yet) and told me I need to think about just moving on.

So tonight my wife is going back to therapy with me for the first time in a while.

I wouldn't say I'm ready or willing to cave in. 

Bringing print screens from my wife's myspace page tonight. Took them before she locked me out. She continues to say it's innocent flirting. Just curious if she'll continue to say its innocent with evidence in her face and in front of an objective third party. (yes AC - I know - I'm trying to change her and make her see that she's wrong even though I know she won't admit it)

I guess I just need to change my Big Happy Family dream up a bit because it is too far gone from reality.


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## nice777guy

Just another short vent – ramble.

I have known my wife since high school. More than 23 years.

In high school – other than my wife - I had one major crush who never really wanted anything to do with me – and one short term girlfriend who was crazier about me than I was about her.

I also had two very good female friends – very, very attractive – but no spark. I look back and wonder if there was something wrong with me – question why didn’t I go after one of these two very pretty girls. Just no spark.

But my wife – I remember feeling that spark the first time I saw her. I “chased” her all throughout high school. Played the patient best friend while she worked her way through a couple of loser boyfriends. Then in college I “caught” her. Maybe I wore her down after 4.5 years!!!

We are contrasts to one another. AC mentioned being an INFP somewhere recently – I’m one of those too, and wife is ESTJ. Have read both ways – that these types can complement each other, or are too far apart to ever work together effectively.

My wife’s boldness and her desire to get things she wanted were both qualities that attracted me to her initially – and in some ways those traits keep me drawn to her. Its just that for the first time in 15 years of marriage, those same qualities are working against the marriage.

The biggest change by far though has been the lying. I’ve often told her that Fibro and lying are completely unrelated, and that she’s lied to me more in the last year than she did in the first 14 years of marriage. She used to have integrity.

Not sure why I’m writing all of this. Maybe to remind you all that there are some strong and irrational emotions still involved in all of this mess. Also kind of feels like I’m writing a eulogy.


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## AFEH

NG, we have very similar stories. I was with the love of my life for 42 years, married for 38. In some ways I’m still in love with her and I know that will be with me for the rest of my life. I’ve accepted that.

I’m now separated for 10 months and for the first time in a long while peace, tranquillity and contentment entered into me, those things just came. I now know why they came. They came because I’m out of the drama.

Today I told my wife that I’m ready to start the divorce process because I need to move on. But if she’s not ready as yet it’s of no great consequence to me, I’ll wait until she’s ready and I’ll find another way to move on.

You’re in a thing called life. Sometimes life brings us joy and happiness and sometimes it brings us pain. Life is a balance. For me the in the end the pain outweighed the joy and happiness, even all the joy and happiness I’d had stacked up over the years we were together.

These times are indeed very very sad. You know you are the only one who knows if it’s ended or not.

Bob


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## Deejo

I'm sure it will come as no surprise, my spouse and I went through a similar scenario.

In her case, she never asked for a clean slate - she would simply become exasperated and consistently say; "I'm tired of re-hashing all of the same stuff from the past."

What she, and presumably your wife fail to acknowledge is that it doesn't need to be re-hashed, if they just frigging address it. Which of course, either as a result of fear, ambivalence, or a damaged desire to perpetuate the behavior - they refuse to do.

My wife actually did take responsibility. She felt remorse for the circumstances - but it was not to such a degree that she would fit the criteria that Turnera mentioned. I honestly don't think she is capable of meeting that threshold. She doesn't want to hurt me or the kids. She is neither vindictive or spiteful. But I don't think she trusts herself enough to want to actively work at repairing the bond. It is interesting that you mention that your wife is afraid of 'failing'. This too, is exactly the language my spouse has used. 

She is afraid to commit herself, because she is afraid to fail. She cannot let go of the notions that I have expectations that she cannot, or will not live up to. So in that case - it is far easier to put the onus on me. Or in your case, your wife wants a clean slate where you both start from a point of zero accountability. 

If you have a clean slate, it can just as easily be your fault that things don't work, or you are unwilling to accept her for who she is, rather than her being the person who betrayed the marriage and screwed everything up with her actions in the first place. 

Does your wife suffer from low self-esteem? Mine does big time. She does not seek out approval or admiration like your wife does. However, her choice in a partner is a direct result of her low self-esteem. He's 'easy'. She calls the shots, she has control. He doesn't threaten her misplaced sense of control.

Without a doubt, the absolute most damaging thing that occured after our separation was her pursuit of a physical affair and the lies she told me as a result. The lies were devastating. Can you forgive her lies without having a true awareness of their depth or extent?


Here is my opinion:

Your wife is not prepared to let go of her pursuit of whatever the hell it is that she's pursuing. She's looking for 'better', and it is in no way clear what 'better' is or what it means. 

She needs to be able to articulate that.

I also believe that she has not yet felt the full pain, or weight, of what ending your marriage would mean for her. Again, in line with what Turnera has said, she has not hit rock bottom. You are the safety net that prevents that.

She wants to continue her search for 'better', with you - yet 'better' may not in the end, be you. In simple speak, she still wants to have her cake and eat it too. She wants to work on her marriage, while also maintaining an escape clause.

When dealing with my wife, I tried to break this down to an elegant, yet complex question where introspection is unavoidable.

What do you need?

You both need to be able to answer the question. I don't suspect that you will have much difficulty with it. Your spouse probably will. The answer needs to be specific to the individual. In other words the answer cannot be about what you need her to do, or what she needs you to do. 

My wife couldn't really answer the question. And I actually believe that is her truth. She really doesn't know what she needs. She doesn't know how to ask for what she needs. She doesn't know how to take responsibility for what she needs. She could not possibly take ownership or responsibility for meeting the needs of her partner - because she believes she will fail. She looks to a partner to behave in a manner that suits and defines her perceived need - which is the kids. She is damaged.

I stopped making demands or giving ultimatums or setting expectations for my wife's behavior. I just started following the rules of my own personal boundaries. Behaving according to those guidelines proved exponentially more efficient than trying to explain and make her 'see' what she was doing wrong. 

In that regard, she needs to make perfectly clear what a clean slate means, and why exactly it is important to her, other than the ability to simply sweep her sins of the past under the rug.

Hold your boundaries - even if a therapist challenges them. If the therapist says, "well if you want to make progress, than you need to look forward, not backward. You both made mistakes."
Use your tagline - "I disagree."

Progress is about willingness, and accountability, not manipulation and obfuscation. I also agree that you should not act as the facilitator in therapy. Keep your mouth shut, let her do the work. I think you alluded to this dynamic previously?


----------



## turnera

You should both read the book Healing The Shame That Binds You. It's possible both women suffer from toxic shame.


----------



## AFEH

Amen to that Deejo.
I imagine it took you a long while to get where you're at. I'm in the same place, same thoughts and same beliefs.

It ain't easy this stuff.

NG be in peace Man.

Bob



Deejo said:


> I'm sure it will come as no surprise, my spouse and I went through a similar scenario.
> 
> In her case, she never asked for a clean slate - she would simply become exasperated and consistently say; "I'm tired of re-hashing all of the same stuff from the past."
> 
> What she, and presumably your wife fail to acknowledge is that it doesn't need to be re-hashed, if they just frigging address it. Which of course, either as a result of fear, ambivalence, or a damaged desire to perpetuate the behavior - they refuse to do.
> 
> My wife actually did take responsibility. She felt remorse for the circumstances - but it was not to such a degree that she would fit the criteria that Turnera mentioned. I honestly don't think she is capable of meeting that threshold. She doesn't want to hurt me or the kids. She is neither vindictive or spiteful. But I don't think she trusts herself enough to want to actively work at repairing the bond. It is interesting that you mention that your wife is afraid of 'failing'. This too, is exactly the language my spouse has used.
> 
> She is afraid to commit herself, because she is afraid to fail. She cannot let go of the notions that I have expectations that she cannot, or will not live up to. So in that case - it is far easier to put the onus on me. Or in your case, your wife wants a clean slate where you both start from a point of zero accountability.
> 
> If you have a clean slate, it can just as easily be your fault that things don't work, or you are unwilling to accept her for who she is, rather than her being the person who betrayed the marriage and screwed everything up with her actions in the first place.
> 
> Does your wife suffer from low self-esteem? Mine does big time. She does not seek out approval or admiration like your wife does. However, her choice in a partner is a direct result of her low self-esteem. He's 'easy'. She calls the shots, she has control. He doesn't threaten her misplaced sense of control.
> 
> Without a doubt, the absolute most damaging thing that occured after our separation was her pursuit of a physical affair and the lies she told me as a result. The lies were devastating. Can you forgive her lies without having a true awareness of their depth or extent?
> 
> 
> Here is my opinion:
> 
> Your wife is not prepared to let go of her pursuit of whatever the hell it is that she's pursuing. She's looking for 'better', and it is in no way clear what 'better' is or what it means.
> 
> She needs to be able to articulate that.
> 
> I also believe that she has not yet felt the full pain, or weight, of what ending your marriage would mean for her. Again, in line with what Turnera has said, she has not hit rock bottom. You are the safety net that prevents that.
> 
> She wants to continue her search for 'better', with you - yet 'better' may not in the end, be you. In simple speak, she still wants to have her cake and eat it too. She wants to work on her marriage, while also maintaining an escape clause.
> 
> When dealing with my wife, I tried to break this down to an elegant, yet complex question where introspection is unavoidable.
> 
> What do you need?
> 
> You both need to be able to answer the question. I don't suspect that you will have much difficulty with it. Your spouse probably will. The answer needs to be specific to the individual. In other words the answer cannot be about what you need her to do, or what she needs you to do.
> 
> My wife couldn't really answer the question. And I actually believe that is her truth. She really doesn't know what she needs. She doesn't know how to ask for what she needs. She doesn't know how to take responsibility for what she needs. She could not possibly take ownership or responsibility for meeting the needs of her partner - because she believes she will fail. She looks to a partner to behave in a manner that suits and defines her perceived need - which is the kids. She is damaged.
> 
> I stopped making demands or giving ultimatums or setting expectations for my wife's behavior. I just started following the rules of my own personal boundaries. Behaving according to those guidelines proved exponentially more efficient than trying to explain and make her 'see' what she was doing wrong.
> 
> In that regard, she needs to make perfectly clear what a clean slate means, and why exactly it is important to her, other than the ability to simply sweep her sins of the past under the rug.
> 
> Hold your boundaries - even if a therapist challenges them. If the therapist says, "well if you want to make progress, than you need to look forward, not backward. You both made mistakes."
> Use your tagline - "I disagree."
> 
> Progress is about willingness, and accountability, not manipulation and obfuscation. I also agree that you should not act as the facilitator in therapy. Keep your mouth shut, let her do the work. I think you alluded to this dynamic previously?


----------



## nice777guy

Deejo said:


> "I'm tired of re-hashing all of the same stuff from the past."
> 
> What she, and presumably your wife fail to acknowledge is that *it doesn't need to be re-hashed, if they just frigging address it. *


Damn - almost stopped reading right then in order to pick my jaw up off of the floor.

Those are her exact words - she's tired of re-hashing things. Things that she's never addressed.

Will look into Healing the Shame that Binds You.

With regards to the "clean slate" discussion that I "hope" we have tonight - I don't think its reasonable or healthy to sweep it all under the rug. BUT, I'm open to suggestions about how to go about asking questions - kind of like the 1 per day that AC recommended, or the Weekend in Hell that MEM recommended (pull the band-aid off quickly and get it over with.)

But what I've gathered here is that a clean slate - with no remorse shown - simply indicates that she does not understand the extent of the damage she has done. If she makes no attempt to understand, then she just doesn't care.

That any decent person would want to help their spouse work through the pain they had caused, and would be expressing true, honest remorse. The lack of remorse shows that she just doesn't understand, or just doesn't care.

Most importantly, if she doesn't understand or doesn't care, the behaviors will continue.


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## turnera

Or it shows that self-protection is so ingrained in her that she simply can't be vulnerable and admit her faults even if she wanted to. Which, in iteslf, is not a great trait.


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## turnera

At counseling, start it off by saying "This night is about what I need. I've done a lot of thinking and here's where I am. I want her with all my heart, but my heart has been trampled to the core by her selfishness. There is only one way - and one way only - that I can ever consider having her come home. And that is for her to - for once - be utterly and completely honest with me, right here, right now, and tell me exactly what she did with every guy, and what she was thinking as she did it. If she can't do that, then we have nothing to discuss, because you don't marry someone and refuse to help them heal from what you have done.

And in return, I agree that, once she HAS let it all out, told the absolute truth (to my satisfaction), then it WILL get swept under the rug and we can move forward.

So here's your chance, Ms NG. Here is your ONE come-clean opportunity. You either take it and we move forward together, or you refuse and we divorce."


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## nice777guy

Therapy is only an hour - I think I need that whole weekend that MEM referred to.

My plan was originally to kind of let the therapist explain why a clean slate won't work. If my wife "got it" -then build from there.

I don't know is it more important to address the future - openness, honesty and transparency going forward. If I were to make a demand or an ultimatum I would probably ask for a promise that things would change.

I deserve both - honesty (and regret) about the past, and the promise to make changes going forward.

Although another question that I've asked myself a lot:
"How can I ever forgive you if I don't know what I'm forgiving you for - if I don't even know what you've done?"

One thing the therapist has "cautioned" about before is that you can go too far asking questions about the past. She claims she's seen spouses who are so convinced that their spouse slept with someone, that any other answer would be seen as a lie. In turn, she claims some spouses have confessed to sleeping with someone just to get the Loyal Spouse to shut up.



turnera said:


> At counseling, start it off by saying "This night is about what I need. I've done a lot of thinking and here's where I am. I want her with all my heart, but my heart has been trampled to the core by her selfishness. There is only one way - and one way only - that I can ever consider having her come home. And that is for her to - for once - be utterly and completely honest with me, right here, right now, and tell me exactly what she did with every guy, and what she was thinking as she did it. If she can't do that, then we have nothing to discuss, because you don't marry someone and refuse to help them heal from what you have done.
> 
> And in return, I agree that, once she HAS let it all out, told the absolute truth (to my satisfaction), then it WILL get swept under the rug and we can move forward.
> 
> So here's your chance, Ms NG. Here is your ONE come-clean opportunity. You either take it and we move forward together, or you refuse and we divorce."


----------



## MEM2020

I like the suggestion below - would clarify though - AFTER she comes clean there is going to be a period of painful conversations. This is not a one hour session and over - that is NOT fair to NG. Whether he wants 3 days or 30 days - he needs time to process what he hears and then he gets to TALK ABOUT IT WITH HER for some time. And yes that is going to suck for her and if she sees him as a flesh and blood person she will do that out of remorse. If she sees him as a source of income, she is going to be keep getting angry at him for asking for this. 

And of course without HER unreserved and total commitment to transparency going forward this is a bust. 

Honestly NG - your desire to reconcile is based on love hers on convenience. Be very careful not to confuse those two things. Her behavior is nothing like what a loving spouse would do. Deejo has just traversed this path and his patience was sorely taken advantage of.

And now for the other side of the coin. During that 3 days or 30 days - you can focus solely on her bad behavior. I wouldn't. I would make sure to ALSO ask "what was it about our marriage that caused you to WANT to do this stuff?" Because you need to know that. And nice as you are - you have contributed to this outcome. This is not about blame - but it is about contribution. If it was me - half those conversations would be about her - and half would be about "me".




turnera said:


> At counseling, start it off by saying "This night is about what I need. I've done a lot of thinking and here's where I am. I want her with all my heart, but my heart has been trampled to the core by her selfishness. There is only one way - and one way only - that I can ever consider having her come home. And that is for her to - for once - be utterly and completely honest with me, right here, right now, and tell me exactly what she did with every guy, and what she was thinking as she did it. If she can't do that, then we have nothing to discuss, because you don't marry someone and refuse to help them heal from what you have done.
> 
> And in return, I agree that, once she HAS let it all out, told the absolute truth (to my satisfaction), then it WILL get swept under the rug and we can move forward.
> 
> So here's your chance, Ms NG. Here is your ONE come-clean opportunity. You either take it and we move forward together, or you refuse and we divorce."


----------



## nice777guy

Didn't give an "ultimatum", but stood my ground that the past must be open and the **** must stop. Therapist tried to steer me away from the past, and seemed to be pushing my wife home. But I said that the past is important - doesn't seem like she really cares if she doesn't address it - and she doesn't need to come home unless she cares.

Basically stood my ground...but no real progress....


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## Deejo

You are confusing results with progress. Standing your ground is progress. It remains to be seen what result that progress will yield.

How did you feel about it? How did your wife feel about it?


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## nice777guy

Wife was upset - still somewhat defiant - claiming everything else had already been taken from her. Claims she doesn't see the harm in just "talking." Said she would choose the marriage over texting but felt it was unfair. I told her don't come home because she'd just be bitter about it.

Therapist helped remind her that there are a LOT of different ways for her to spend her time that don't involve an iPhone, PC, or single guys.

Only bad thing - when I said we had a "good" weekend - well - as soon as we are out of the therapist office she accuses me of "using" her. So - new rule - NO SEX AT ALL. Too bad - feels like she's twisting a really nice weekend into an excuse to ignore anything we discussed. Disappointing - but not surprising.

Were planning to take the kids to a nearby amusement park on Saturday - hoping she won't use this as a chance to rain on their parade. And if she does, I'll just do my best to make it good for them anyway.

Ex-freakin-hausted. No more TAM for a few days. Love you guys - you help me a lot - but damn - this **** just wears a person out. If I devoted the time I've spent on my marriage to find a cure for cancer, who knows what I might be able to do...


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## turnera

Awesome job! I'm really really proud of you. You have come a LONG way from where you were when you first came here.


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## Affaircare

> Wife was upset - still somewhat defiant - claiming everything else had already been taken from her. Claims she doesn't see the harm in just "talking." Said she would choose the marriage over texting but felt it was unfair. I told her don't come home because she'd just be bitter about it.


The main problems I see here are that her heart is still hard. She says "everything else has been taken from her" but exactly *who* did that to her? She has a medical degree and a disease, and all the rest is of her own choosing! Yes, I get it that coming to grips with the fact that you have a lifelong disease can be tough (I have had RA for 30+ years and Dear Hubby has CFS) but that just is not an excuse that justifies "oh you have CFS? well you can be unfaithful all you want then!" or justifies avoiding personal responsibility for her own choices. If she's lost anything, it's because she acted on decisions that cost her! 




> Therapist helped remind her that there are a LOT of different ways for her to spend her time that don't involve an iPhone, PC, or single guys.


Yes, there are MANY, MANY ways to regain self esteem and come to grips with an illness that do not involve telling other men that you are single, sexually flirting in public, or claiming that's your EX and he's a crazy stalker type. I could list the myriad ways but the point is that before there will be real, true healing here, YOUR WIFE is the one who's going to have to see and understand that her choice to continue to cover up sexual flirtation with other men and blame it on you...her choice is what is costing her. Not you. 



> Only bad thing - when I said we had a "good" weekend - well - as soon as we are out of the therapist office she accuses me of "using" her. So - new rule - NO SEX AT ALL. Too bad - feels like she's twisting a really nice weekend into an excuse to ignore anything we discussed. Disappointing - but not surprising.


The guys on the sites that she visits, flirts with, and has left her family for are the ones who "use her." They do not have deep, real, true love for her and see her as a valuable, upstanding woman. They see her as another piece of poon if they play their cards right! Talk about the lowest of the low! But yeah--if she's pulling that card, I'd say no more sex and not as a punishment but for two reasons: a) she'll try to pull the "he raped me" bull if she can and b) if she doesn't love you right now, it's not "making love"... so have some self-respect for yourself and wait for a woman who will make love to you. 



> Were planning to take the kids to a nearby amusement park on Saturday - hoping she won't use this as a chance to rain on their parade. And if she does, I'll just do my best to make it good for them anyway.


I would call her on her disloyal dizzyness, even in front of the kids. No I'm not saying start a fight in front of them, but don't let her voice lies in front of them without identifying the truth because they would be confused by the half-truth part of the lying. To a kid, they'd see "Well I know this part is true so maybe that part is too..." So nope, if she starts stuff like "Daddy is trying to get mommy to have no friends and be lonely" you can state the truth to your children, in a loving way "Actually sweetie, I believe that mommies and daddies should only love each other and not have boyfriends and girlfriends, so that's what I've asked you mom to choose--to choose to love only me and be faithful to me." 



> Ex-freakin-hausted. No more TAM for a few days. Love you guys - you help me a lot - but damn - this **** just wears a person out. If I devoted the time I've spent on my marriage to find a cure for cancer, who knows what I might be able to do...


If you devoted the time you've spent on your marriage to finding a cure for cancer, you wouldn't have some fighting you every step of the way and I'm sure that cure would be found, bottled and distributed for free by now! :rofl:


----------



## nice777guy

AC - didn't respond sooner - nothing to disagree with, although I'm struggling with the idea of being so totally honest with the kids.

Last night before leaving the house, my wife showed us all a little surprise - she has a new tatoo!!! (sarcastic exclamations)

I guess she thought I would be turned on or something - and she was very disappointed when the first words out of my mouth were "Please tell me that's not real..."

It's a Scorpio sign - looks like a butterfly - basically right where her neck and back meet. She has a lot of long hair, so it will be easy for her to cover.

The 8 year old thinks its pretty - and it is.

The 11 year old is all over her. Per the 11 year old, Mom is rebelling and trying to be young. She probably got it to impress young boys and try to look cool. I don't ever want her coming to my school again. She's not the same person she was a year ago. The cigarrette butts outside your apartment are YOURS, they aren't from the guy who lives above you.

Look - I don't think tatoos are evil. Its fairly well hidden - and it is kind of a pretty design that was well done.

And while I think my oldest is overreacting "a bit", she's also right on the money a LOT. I'm sure my wife will dismiss what she's saying - will probably attribute a lot of it to me. But I know the truth - our daughter is smart enough to realize this stuff on her own - no need for me to "coach her."

Tempted to call her tonight - although I know it would do no good.

Spent a little extra time listening to my daughter at bed time - just listening.

I have literally been physically exhausted lately. Nothing in the tank. I have Friday scheduled off - not sure I'll tell anybody. Will give me a nice 4 day weekend - maybe a chance to re-charge.


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## nice777guy

Made the call tonight anyway. Kept it short and sweet. Your daughter see's that you've changed. I can tell her that a tattoo isn't the end of the world, but I can't argue when she says that you aren't the same person you were 6 months ago.

Reminded her that 11 year olds don't process or express emotions like 38 year olds. And that just because she's upset and out of control, doesn't mean she isn't right.

Mostly met with silence - a couple of "I knows".

Also told her that I made a mistake last night. My mistake was that I should have just gone with my initial reaction - that the tattoo reminds me of everything that she's done wrong over the last year and there is NOTHING sexy about it. I was wrong to back off of my feelings and tell her it was tasteful (it actually is) and pretty (it actually is). But I was wrong because I was more worried about making her upset than how I felt.

All spoken calmly. No anger. Short - to the point - and HONEST.

Not sure it helped, but it needed to be said.

Left it by reminding her that our daughter feels Mom is pulling away - and Mom needs to find some way of reassuring her that she is still there for her - no matter how irrational or upset the 11 year old daughter becomes.


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## Deejo

F*cking perfect. Adjective is used in the approving sense, not the sarcastic or negative sense.

You being honest with yourself and saying what you need to say (calmly) provides an excellent outlet for that anger.

Did for me.


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## nice777guy

Thx. Doesn't help that this damn thing is permanent.

Also feel good that I'm not trying to oversell to the kids - mostly the oldest.

Was reading my copy of No More Mr. Nice Guy at lunch today.

Fantasy Football draft (I'm the Commish) tomorrow night.

Friday - day off - not telling a soul.

And tomorrow I'm signing up for Judo at the YMCA.

Still holding my ground - and still taking baby steps.

Splitting up finances has been ineffective - at least emotionally. She knows I've done something - but says she's locked herself out of her online banking, so she's not sure WHAT I've done. Having my own account will also make things clearer for dividing finances "when" it comes to that. Maybe I need to flaunt my new debit card a bit more when we are together.

Keep thinking of Turnera advising someone else to "Get a life" and how that can often turn things around. Think that's what I need. I mean - here I am at 11:30 - basically typing about her. Doubt she's thinking of me.

Maybe I'm a fool - but I still think if she came clean, showed remorse and became open and transparent - that this mess could somehow work. 20 years of history tells me that our relationship CAN work.

Just really doubtful that she'll do any of the things that need to be done, which leaves it up to me.


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## turnera

Nice, if you envisioned a life you dreamed of - assuming you had never meet your wife - what would it look like?


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## nice777guy

First thing in my head - I can't imagine it. Been chasing her since I was 14. Together since I was 18. Now I'm 38.

Judo sounds interesting. Never been much for organized sports, but always been competitive. Need to find that part of me again.

A bigger bass amp.

Continue to focus on my kids - but eliminate all the "baby mama drama!!!" Youngest told Gramma that I'm happier and spend more time with them when Mom isn't around.

More freedom to focus on my career. I have a good job - but I can do more.

Hard to imagine life without her - but with a long weekend ahead, maybe I'll just take a notebook and head to a park - do some brainstorming.


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## turnera

nice777guy said:


> Youngest told Gramma that I'm happier and spend more time with them when Mom isn't around.


 IMO, this is THE most important thing you have ever said.


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## nice777guy

MIL mentioned it in an e-mail to me about a month ago. 

And yes - its a big one.

I can see where my wife is making a bit more of an effort with the kids lately - but this tattoo has not been good for her relationship with our D-11. She's leaving the laptop at home when she comes over, but she still has her iPhone.


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## turnera

Nothing wrong with pointing that out.


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## Affaircare

On a lighter note, I found something for ya, NiceGuy:


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## Deejo

That. Is. Epic.


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## nice777guy

Wife went on a road trip by herself this weekend - I told her it sounded reasonable. This last week I just really haven't wanted to be around her - even though she has been acting like everything is "OK".

Even though she's done "better" with the phone and the laptop, better just isn't going to be good enough. 

Its hard to imagine putting the pieces back together. For example, she's still hidden from me on Facebook. Right now - until she knows what she wants - that's probably a good thing. Less for me to think about if I see her post something stupid. BUT - at the same time - I keep thinking about how stupid this is - that we aren't even friends on FB, yet she acts like everything is just fine.

Same thing with the phone bill. I still can't see who she's talking to. Starting to think that I'd rather get my own phone on my own bill - even if its an additional expense - just to establish a more formal separation. Just seems wrong that I can't see the phone bill that includes my phone too.

Youngest daughter said something about her friend who was talking at school on Friday about going somewhere this weekend. Felt sad and angry that we could have gone somewhere together - but I'm not sure if anyone would have really enjoyed it. I really don't want to be stuck in a car or a small hotel room with my wife right now. And at the same time, my wife actually left town, so SHE - the person who isn't really doing anything - actually DID get away for the weekend.

Also had another cookout with my wife's family while she was gone. Not sure if they called her or not. My BIL was the one who suggested she get out of town - so I think he knew. Still - guess its encouraging that I'm still invited whether she's around or not.

Signed up for my Judo class. Made an appointment to get a physical this week. Been feeling tired - I'm sure its stress. Got some rest - took the kids to a movie yesterday.

Just kind of rambling - adding to my story here. Thanks for listening.


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## turnera

Go for it. Separate your finances, your bills, your everything. If she wants back in, make her PAY for it.


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## nice777guy

Marriage therapy tonight!!! Yay!!!

Sarcasm is not good.

"Brief" conversation with wife last night - she thinks she can give up social networking, but she has made some real "friends" that she texts and e-mails. Also, she thinks opening up the phone bill is just going to give me the chance to question her every move.

Not good enough. Its obvious she has no intention to really change - she wants to leave too many lines of communication open.

The "get my own phone" thing - drives me a bit nuts. To spend as much as $100 per month just to kind of prove a point. But, if we get divorced, I'll be spending that money anyway.


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## Deejo

I'm not looking to stir the pot here, but you framed the phone thing from an odd perspective.

Are the phone lines in her name? But you pay for them?

Why do you see it as additional money you will have to spend? Why isn't it money SHE has to spend - if she wants her own phone line?

I'm going back to 08. We had a single wireless plan with two lines. I got the bill of course showing activity for both lines. 

I informed her that I would be removing her and she would need to get her own phone. She did nothing. I dropped her. She was angry. I was angrier. She got her own phone and never brought it up again.


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## turnera

Exactly.

If she now has some real 'friends,' then you - as her husband - have EVERY RIGHT to see the texts and emails. Tell her as long as you have access to those, she is welcome to remain with you. If she feels she needs her 'privacy' (read: secrecy), then she can do it as a single woman.

It's time you start having some pride, ok? 

How can she respect you if you don't respect yourself? You deserver BETTER than this, and there are millions of women out there looking for someone like you who they will shower with attention, affection, and ... ahem.


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## nice777guy

The wireless phone bill is in her name. I have separated our finances, but left her about 25% of what we had in savings - which is plenty for her to get by on for at least 6 months or longer.

I guess right now she's actually paying for my phone...

The financial separation hasn't had the desired effect. She claims she's locked herself out of our online banking info and has no idea what I've done to our finances.

The amount I removed shouldn't have "scared" her - but the monthly drop as her expenses exceed her income is what I hoped would get her attention - seeing her account slowly dwindle. Its not working since she can't see it.

I see it as additional money because I still track and budget everything together. Having two phone plans is more expensive than having two phones on the same plan.

So, I see getting my own account as adding $80+ to "our" monthly budget. But - if we get divorced - then its going to happen anyway.

And Turnera - what did you mean by "ahem"?


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## turnera

Well, obviously you're not getting any significant bedroom time with your wife, right?

Imagine yourself married to a woman who does not believe in using her man. Who only wants someone to appreciate her so that she can appreciate him back. And SHOW him that appreciation in the bedroom.


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## nice777guy

So - you are suggesting I get a divorce so I can have more sex???

Why didn't anybody put it to me this way before?!?!?!?!?


(just kidding, mostly...)


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## turnera

No, lol.

I was just pointing out that you DO have alternatives to what you're dealing with now.


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## Deejo

Man ... have we wasted a lot of posts. I'm gonna get me divorced, then go get me a 25 year old stripper like jharken. I hear you can order them online!

Who says dreams don't come true? 



nice777guy said:


> So - you are suggesting I get a divorce so I can have more sex???
> 
> Why didn't anybody put it to me this way before?!?!?!?!?
> 
> 
> (just kidding, mostly...)


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## nice777guy

Who is jharken? Did I miss something?


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## Deejo

Dude who posted a thread "Should I tell my wife I'm sleeping with a stripper."

He did tell her, and according to him, she gave him her blessing. Whether it was a blessing to catch the clap, or go bang to his heart's content I'm not sure ...


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## nice777guy

Terrible therapy session last night. A lot of yelling - a lot of anger on both sides.

Right before therapy, my wife tells me that she will be losing half of her disability income. Before this, she was almost breaking even while on my insurance.

Without this - and if she were to have to go on her own insurance (Medi-care?) - I'm figuring she's at least $1,000 in the hole each month.

I am so pissed off at her right now for putting all of us through this. I truly believe that if she had spent the last year trying to work on herself and find some type of modified career path, then she would have never had the time to get hooked on the internet / iphone / male attention / whatever.

Even if a miracle happens and she moves home, this loss of income puts us at a breakeven point.

How can she sit on the laptop for hours or phone for hours, yet claim that she is unable to work? She has two degrees - never used the first - used the second for 4 months before becoming "sick."

Then last night - after therapy from hell - as I'm tucking my 8 year old daughter into bed, she starts crying because she misses Mommy and wants her to move home tomorrow.

Even when she was a stay-at-home mom, she eventually had the kids enrolled in daycare 2 days a week in order to get a break. WTF? Where is MY break?

Saw my primary care doctor today to talk about some medical help to get me throught his ****.

Why can't my wife just be normal? How did she get so far gone? And why does she have to drag me and the kids straight down with her?


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## nice777guy

And look - I'm just being honest here - I don't feel like I have the TIME or the STRENGTH to talk to an attorney. Yep. I'm worn down. Call me all the names you want. Tell me I have to STAND UP as an example to my kids. I feel like you might as well tell someone who is paralyzed to "just jump - you know - jump..."

Had a four day weekend - I don't feel rested. My boss is already gearing us up to work this upcoming weekend. I'm behind - everyone I work with is behind. Layoffs a year and a half ago left us with one less person - and we've actually got more work. And my boss has no home life - so I can't complain to him - he'll tell me to immerse myself in my job to get away from my problems.

I feel like I'm going to f'n crack.


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## turnera

Some people are just Takers, nice. It never occurs to be otherwise; they wouldn't even know HOW to be otherwise. Her life is a continuous ME-fest. And it always will be. I'm not trashing her, just trying to explain the mentality of Takers. They - from what I've learned - literally look down on people like you (Givers) for being suckers, and feel justified taking from you all because you're dumb enough to be a Giver instead of a Taker.


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## turnera

nice777guy said:


> I feel like I'm going to f'n crack.


What did your doctor prescribe?

Are you and your daughter taking daily walks?


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## nice777guy

No daily walks - sometimes they ride bikes and I walk.

Every night we have what I call a "two song snuggle." The two songs puts a time limit on it - but its time that I spend with each one of them - alone. Some nights we are all so tired, there's no talking. Other nights I get an earful. Its my way of making sure they at least have a CHANCE to talk to me when I'm not distracted.

Part of me feels like calling my wife and telling her that I want to switch places. She wouldn't last a WEEK as a single parent - not without all that I do.

I've already been on meds - for years - for ongoing anxiety and depression. Doc just added something new to the mix. Primary care doctors prescribing anxiety/depression drugs makes me nervous - but I also know from past experience that it takes about a month to get into a Psych's office around here - unless you are suicidal or dealing with at major drug/alcohol addiction.


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## nice777guy

We agreed last night to no speaking for 2 weeks - then meeting back in therapy. I have NO CLUE what this will help to accomplish.


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## notreadytoquit

Who pays for her laptop and Iphone and internet?If it is you cut it off right now. Why does she have to have an Iphone? There are plenty of other cheaper phones out there. 

She is obivously wearing you out and it is taking a toll on your health. I am not a doctor but before you get on taking prescription drugs try Vitamin B complex. It is helping me in this situation and it is much cheaper than those prescription drugs.

I know you don't really want to talk to a lawyer but at least give her an ultimatum. You have enough proof to show that she can get a job despite her disability.


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## nice777guy

I don't want to give her an ultimatum because I don't want her coming home. Not unless home is where she wants to be.

I've given so much to her and the children - they have been my life. I feel like I have no one else to turn to. My wife WAS my best friend and had been since High School.

I never thought that dedicating yourself to your family and (to an extent) your career (FOR your family's well being) would be such a bad thing one day.


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## nice777guy

Like I said, right now she pays for the phone and her 'net usage. She "was" breaking even - with a small bit of help. Now - she's screwed. I'm not sure when she's losing this income - this might be the last month.

I "think" I make good money - and I "think" we live modestly - but I just don't know how people do this.


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## turnera

nice777guy said:


> I never thought that dedicating yourself to your family and (to an extent) your career (FOR your family's well being) would be such a bad thing one day.


 nice, what you are doing is NOT a bad thing. You are an amazing man, and an even more amazing father. 

Any other woman would feel blessed to have such a husband as you.

I know you want your wife, but I'm just hoping you can at least wrap your head around the fact that you COULD be happy, down the road, with a different woman. 

One thing I'd like to warn you about is that, as she becomes desperate for money, one thing she may latch onto is the idea that if she divorces you, she can FORCE you to pay her child support if she takes the kids back from you. Or even just takes them half-time.

btw, I asked about the walks because exercise is one of THE most important things you can do to get past stress and despression and anxiety. A walk would be great for you physically and mentally, and it would create great memories for your kids. My DD20 and I've been walking together for about 6 years now - it's the one place she can unwind with me and talk. I hope you'll consider finding time for it.

I also hope you will take the time to make some sort of change in terms of your day-to-day life; you are becoming overwhelmed, and you can't help your kids that way. Have you looked into things like church or kids play groups or even United Way? You need some sort of support structure, or at least a break now and then.

What you are going through is why MB prescribes that men go NO LONGER THAN 6 months dealing with a wayward wife before they go to Plan B (no contact). Unless you have a set deadline, you can drive yourself crazy and suffer a breakdown. I hope you'll consider that, too.


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## nice777guy

You mention United Way - in my head, I'm supposed to be the volunteer or the donor - not the recipient of help.

I feel physically worn down.

And yes - she thinks she'll get alimony - she thinks she'll get 50/50 custody. I smile - don't argue (because I feel good about my chances) and THAT is a big part of what makes her so angry.

Before now, money was not really a big issue. And if we were together - and she could focus on the kids and the house - and me on work - it wouldn't be an issue going forward.

BUT - that's all a fantasy now.

Question - how in the hell can I afford to date if I DO have to pay her alimony?

Why do I find myself concerned about her standard of living?

Why do I still LOVE her?

Why can I not let go?

I just feel so SCREWED.


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## turnera

You haven't crossed over from nice to angry yet.

Some people don't. That's why a time limit is suggested: so you don't just keep on doing what you're doing because you are mentally unable to let go of her. The time limit does it for you - MAKES you let go of her if you go 6 months and nothing changes. 

Surely you can't see yourself in this same position 10 years from now? What about 5? What about ONE?

You can't. As you can tell, you are falling apart from the strain and the lack of positive feedback. You've been giving and giving and giving to 'help' her see the way back, and it doesn't do a thing. You HAVE learned to set some boundaries, and I'm glad for that.

But I think you are fundamentally a person who feels he has to keep Giving because that's how he was raised - even if it means he sacrifices himself, waiting for the other person to 'get it' and start reciprocating.

You can't immolate yourself based on a hope, nice. You just can't. Your children need you to move on and protect them. They need you to show them how NOT to become a Taker like their mom.

So, I'll ask you. Do you have a time limit?


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## turnera

nice777guy said:


> Question - how in the hell can I afford to date if I DO have to pay her alimony?


btw, this? Laughable. You really don't have any idea what it's like to be with a woman who doesn't want you to be a perpetual Giver. Who just wants to BE with you.

Most women do not 'rate' your worthiness on how much you spend on them. They rate you on whether you make them feel good, loved, and appreciated. 

You have that capability in spades!

I truly can't wait for you to get divorced and start dating, so you can see just how many wonderful women there are out there who are just waiting to meet a prince like you. You will kick yourself for waiting so long.

Just for grins, how to afford dating? Picnics. Parks. Camping. Hikes. Bicycling. Bookstores. People watching. Bird watching! Free concerts in the park. Game nights. Movie nights. Solitaire leagues. Playing instruments together. High school or college football/baseball games. Softball leagues. Garage sale perusing. Reading the Sunday paper over coffee. Book clubs. Neighborhood clubs in whatever they offer. Gardening together. Skating with your kids. Kite flying. Beaches. Resale shop hunting. Day trips.

Need I go on? You have your whole life ahead of you, nice, and it's going to be grand. :smthumbup:


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## nice777guy

I have officially scheduled my first legal "consult" - plan to follow up on another one later that's available through my employer's EAP program.

Turnera - wish I shared your enthusiasm about what the future might hold.


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## Affaircare

NiceGuy~

You know that for a long time I've been a big advocate of yours. For a long time I've been offering suggestions and encouragement how to deal with this. Sadly, because your wife has CFS she has decided to find some "self-worth" in being available to other men on the internet, and you know as well as I do that is NOT really a symptom of Chronic Fatigue! I know how debilitating CFS can be and I know that it is real and it is not just "being tired". My own Dear Hubby has CFS and yet he has not chosen to get his self-worth by looking to other women or by becoming a non-productive member of the family! My Dear Hubby coaches with me, creates websites, homeschools the children, and keeps the house...and he has freedom to do more on days when he feels well and do less on days when he's not feeling so good. He contributes to both the marriage and the family!

I think what is tearing you apart is that for the longest time you have desperately clung to the hope that your wife would come to her senses...and she's not. 

I think what is tearing you apart is that for the longest time you have desperately clung to The Illusion you had that if you worked hard for your family, the pay-off would be a loving wife and happy kids...and it's not. 

I think what is tearing you apart is that for the longest time you have desperately clung to the remote chance that your wife would snap out of it and care about the fact that she is dragging you and the kids down ... and she's doesn't. 

I think what is tearing you apart is that for the longest time you have felt some anger building over being screwed like this (and make no mistake, you ARE being screwed) by someone who was supposed to love you, and you have yet to express the anger or act to protect yourself from being screwed. 

NiceGuy, I know you are not perfect, but I also know you have been earning financially for pretty much the whole family, caring for the kids pretty much on your own, and caring the burden of this marriage and family by yourself for a long time now. You have been a noble man with character, and you've done the right thing. This isn't about "who's fault is it" but I can say that you have held up your end of the bargain! And now, because your wife choses to not pursuit income-producing options with her two degrees, she is on the brink of financial disaster. She can not just use the kids so she gets more child support because she has established a precedent of being "too sick" to work or care for them! 

I do believe the time really has come to separate all finances, yours and hers, and let her sink or float on her own. Up to this point you've been willing to let her drag down you and the family emotionally and hurt you all without a cost. Now, if you do not let her sink on her own, you are threatening yourself and your children financially too. 

The reasoning for doing this is not to "wake her up" because of finances. She may, honestly-I-kid-you-not, never wake up! The reasoning is primarily to protect yourself and the kids from being sunk due to HER choices! If she wants to sink herself, you can not stop her but you can stop her from sinking you and sinking the kids. Shoot, if you had to, you could be a single dad with a nanny who helps with housework and child care, and you can afford that without going under! 

So I would strongly encourage you to PLEASE act on your behalf and for the sake of your children and protect yourself financially. I know you think "How do I untangle years of finances?" and it's easy, NiceGuy. What you make, you keep and use it to care for yourself and the children. What she makes, she keeps and does with as she sees appropriate. Plug in realistic numbers into the child support calculator for your state--your income, hers, and time spent with each parent--and that's roughly what your child support would be. Pay her that and not one red cent more until you hear otherwise. And if you need to migrate your cell phone...do it!


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## nice777guy

AC - I've done most of that already. My paychecks are now deposited in my account. I now have a separate debit card and separate checks. I'm just missing some of the billing info to make sure I can pay all of what applies to "me, the kids and the house" on my own.

In other words, she can't grab the money and run off to Mexico.

Hell - I'd pay her whats left in the account if she promised to go to Mexico and never come back - at least that's how I feel right now.

Child support in Indiana is based on "overnights" - I think the kids have stayed with her 3 nights in the last 3 months. Before she was losing half her income, the calculation showed her owing me money.

The alimony is the big unknown. And alimony - support - whatever - if she's going to watch money go out the door and not even attempt to replace it, or even worse, expect me to keep her 'whole" - no thanks. She can work. She needs to work regardless.

And I guess attorney's fees are another big unknown. The longer this stretches on - the less likely we'll be able to do this amicably.

This is NOT what I wanted. Not anywhere close.


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## Affaircare

By the way on a personal note, my own Dear Hubby is a lot like you. For years he worked hard to put his ex through advanced degrees in college. Very advanced. For years hoped and hoped for his ex to "come around" and she continued in her affairs. 

It is heartbreaking that she walked away from her husband and the children who love her so she can chase men who will use her and throw her away. And yet she does it to this very day. To this very day she barely takes the kids for a visit once a month, pays no child support despite her earning potential, is not there for their first day of school or to meet their teachers, and really only wants them for one thing: as a dependent on her taxes (and I repeat, she does not pay child support or even keep them 50/50). 

So yep--it is heartbreaking to see someone CHOOSE people who will use and dump them over someone who actually cares. And it is heartbreaking to see someone CHOOSE a life of flirting over being a good parent and providing for their own children. But in reality, sometimes people do make that choice.


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## turnera

nice777guy said:


> I have officially scheduled my first legal "consult" - plan to follow up on another one later that's available through my employer's EAP program.
> 
> Turnera - wish I shared your enthusiasm about what the future might hold.


Yay! Finally!

Enthusiasm is being wafted over the Internet waves, to blow on you, as we speak! I will it so!


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## nice777guy

It doesn't feel like a step forward - doesn't feel like I'm taking a stand. Feels like I'm giving up.

Certainly doesn't feel good.

And - in my head - I'm just likely moving from one type of mess (unfaithful wife) to another (divorce).


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## turnera

Then you need some therapy of your own to start looking for half-full glasses! 

Seriously, I'm not trying to denigrate your wife or your marriage.

I'm trying to save you pain. And continuing as you are _keeps _you in pain.

And guess what? Even if you separate or even divorce, there's nothing saying that by you taking this step, she will finally see the real you and realize her own shortcomings. And maybe even hit rock bottom, which is often what's needed in order to change and improve oneself.

She certainly won't see them if you keep up the status quo. But by respecting yourself and distancing yourself legally, she just may.

So, who knows? You just may end up together anyway.


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## AFEH

nice777guy said:


> It doesn't feel like a step forward - doesn't feel like I'm taking a stand. Feels like I'm giving up.
> 
> Certainly doesn't feel good.
> 
> And - in my head - I'm just likely moving from one type of mess (unfaithful wife) to another (divorce).


Someone throw a bucket of water over his head.

For goodness sake wake up and smell the roses. You sound like you're writing your epitaph.

At the same time you're writing a lament. Things in life die. Things in life blossom and grow. Stop pushing your rock up the hill Sisyphus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. You ain’t never going to grow until you let the rock go. Stop punishing yourself. You are the only one that’s doing the punishment. Ain’t nobody else doing it. Don’t give me no “buts”.

It’s ended NG.

Bob


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## turnera

Hmmm...maybe you're just naturally a pessimist? Do you think you are? Some people just are. My brother. He was miserable on his freakin' wedding day. HAD to find something wrong with it; just how he is.

That's a hard thing to break, but it CAN be done, if you so decide.


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## Deejo

"Every new beginning, comes from some other beginning's end."

- Semisonic 'Closing Time'

I can only assure you that the more YOU are choosing the course and flow of these events instead of feeling victimized by them, the better, and more in control you will feel. And importantly, the more you will see her, and her decisions as utterly unacceptable.


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## nice777guy

Yeah - I'm real excited about formally dividing up finances - especially now that she's lost a big chunk of her income. 

And fighting about child custody - knowing she's likely just doing it for financial reasons - maybe we can do that over drinks, right? Keep it casual - just like people who've been best friends for 20 years would normally do.

And I have NO reason to suspect that she'll be anything but completely rational about the whole thing - its not like she's just recently gone crazy.

Yep - guess I'm just a pessimist! I mean some people get divorced 4 or 5 times they like it so much, right?!?!!?

Good times ahead...good times...


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## nice777guy

Deejo - why won't "they" - meaning "our" spouses - help move the process along? My wife has said repeatedly that she WON'T file. Said it again during out knock-down-dragout therapy session.

Made the call to followup and schedule the 2nd consult - through my employer's EAP - but just got an answering machine. Yes - I left a message.

And one more thing - I will admit that I am in part doing this in the hopes that it will shock her back to "normal." That it will invoke some respect that has been missing.

I keep looking at the math. Anytime you take two people who have been financial partners - even if its uneven - and then divide everything up - buy a duplicate of everything - have two homes - its just a total lose/lose financially. Pisses me off!!!


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## nice777guy

And while I'm sharing so much - went for a nice walk with the girls tonight. Well - they rode bikes and I walked - but we could still talk. Beautiful day here in the midwest.


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## turnera

Yay! Walks! Good for you!

You know what the fun is in dividing everything? Shopping. Taking your daughters with you and going to resale shops and antique furniture stores. I'm working on a business inside a building that is an 'antique' store. In reality, she buys old stuff, has her guys fix them up, and sells them. Right now, they have two Midcentury Modern square chairs that I'm just salivating over; she's selling them for $95 each! Headboards/footboards for $150, chairs for $35...just awesome stuff, for a steal! 

Talk about creating some good memories with your daughters. And you can even pass some of the furniture on down to them. They'll remember it from the period in their lives when their dad started coming out of his shell and became a whole person again.


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