# Open Relationship???



## John Doe Rae

Ok. So my wife and I watched a show about open relationships. We got into a long discussion about what rules we would have if we were in an open relationship. The rules were you could only meet people via Facebook or Xbox Live. Then you could only meet the person in real life after 1 year. We both agreed. The problem is.....turns out it was a trap. After a week or so she tells me that it was all a ploy to see if I would agree. 

Her Side
She says that I shouldn't have agreed because I should not want to be with anyone else and I should not want her to be with anyone else. 

My Side
I say that even though I agreed, I didn't participate. I didn't talk to anyone or try to date anyone because I don't need or want anyone.

Her Side
Then she says that it doesn't matter that I didn't participate. What matters is that I agreed in the first place.

My Side
I say that it doesn't matter that I agreed. What matters is that I didn't even try to be with anyone. 
_______________________________________

Now she is talking about divorce. Am I wrong or is she wrong? How can I fix this? Please help. All opinions and advice are welcome.




UPDATE:
After much deliberation I decided to just listen to everything she had to say without me interjecting or trying to defend myself. I described to her how I understood everything she was saying and used great detail to show that I actually was paing attention. She agreed to give me a second chance and gave me three months to prove that she is the only woman for me and that I want this relationship. Afterwards I bbrought up the part about her being deceitful. After convincing her that I was not just trying to shift the blame (took a little bit) she explained to me that it was past argument about my priorities in life that lead her to believe that she needed deceite. I I explained that I understood. I agreed to the three months probation. (As she was correct in her motives) And that is that. Thank you to everyone for your help.


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## Married but Happy

Weren't you discussing a hypothetical? Not a how to WHEN you do it? A hypothetical is how you would IF (and only if) you actually wanted to and did pursue it with each other's approval.

So, unless it wasn't a hypothetical, she's out of line. You should be able to discuss anything without fear of reprisals - those should only happen if you follow through unilaterally.


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## Philat

A trap? Why was she trying to trap you? This sounds like a lot of nothing to me.


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## John Doe Rae

Married but Happy said:


> Weren't you discussing a hypothetical? Not a how to WHEN you do it? A hypothetical is how you would IF (and only if) you actually wanted to and did pursue it with each other's approval.


It started as a hypothetical but then we decided to give it a shot. But neither one of us ACTUALLY did anything.


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## Theseus

John Doe Rae said:


> We both agreed. The problem is.....turns out it was a trap. After a week or so she tells me that it was all a ploy to see if I would agree.


Most (but not all) people on this forum are against open relationships. However, no matter how you feel about them, she is in the wrong here. You are both missing the important point: there is a major trust issue here. 

She agreed. You agreed. Now she broke the agreement and says she was just testing you. How can you trust her again? If she pulls stunts like this, how could you ever discuss things openly and honestly again? I can't stress how important that is. 



> _Now she is talking about divorce._


She might be doing you a favor, it sounds like you both aren't ready for marriage yet. This game she played with you is something you would expect from teenagers, not married adults. 



> _How can I fix this?_


If this is really an issue that she can't get past, then I recommend marriage counseling. But honestly, the fact that you would have to resort to marriage counseling (not to mention divorce) over such an immature thing is telling in and of itself.


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## WorkingOnMe

This sounds like a sh!t test to me.


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## Unique Username

Play with fire and you usually get burned


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## jld

Well, I am surprised she got through a long discussion on it. She must have been hoping the whole time that you would call it off, that you would say there is no way you would ever even consider that. I bet that is what she was hoping.

Yes, it was a **** test. We women do them a lot. But that is a major one to fail, OP.

If I were you, I would sit down and have a heart to heart. Mostly you listening to her heart. If she is considering divorce, you are in a lot of trouble. 

Use active listening. Basically repeat back to her what she tells you she is feeling or thinking, or better yet, paraphrase it. But listen sincerely. Seek to understand. Tell her, "Help me understand," -- and then genuinely try to.

Don't listen to people telling you she is wrong. She doesn't feel that way, and she is the one you are dealing with. Women's emotions are not the same as men's logic.

Good luck. Really, good luck pulling out of this one.


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## treyvion

Unique Username said:


> Play with fire and you usually get burned


There are people who swallow flaming batons, and juggle them. So under controlled it provides and intense thrill.


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## John Doe Rae

jld said:


> Yes, it was a **** test. We women do them a lot. But that is a major one to fail, OP.


I respect your input  I am not disputing that I was wrong in agreeing to the relationship. What I was trying to tell her was that I think there should be more focus on the fact that I stayed completely faithful even when given free reign to do whatever. She says my actions don't matter in the slightest.

What is your input on that jld?


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## Catherine602

I think your wife's point is that you had no problem with her seeing another man. The average man would like variety of of sex with another woman. 

However, they have strong negative feelings about their wives being with OM. Love makes most men possessive and protective of the woman. 

You don't mind sharing your wife and you don't mind that she may be at risk with OM. You don't care enough that she would even want another man. 

If I were in her place, I would reconsider who I married and if you were the type of man I wanted in my life. 

You didn't do it because you did not have the opportunity yet. You had no way of knowing if she would go out that w/e and pick up some guy. Nor did it concern you. 

But that's who you are. She may not have known that the bond you felt to her was so weak. 

Or that sex for you is a pleasure seeking activity and not a confirmation of your love and caring for your wife.

Are you sure you want to stay married to your wife? It is possible that you don't love her but she is a convenience companion.


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## jld

John Doe Rae said:


> I respect your input  I am not disputing that I was wrong in agreeing to the relationship. What I was trying to tell her was that I think there should be more focus on the fact that I stayed completely faithful even when given free reign to do whatever. She says my actions don't matter in the slightest.
> 
> What is your input on that jld?


JDR, why did you agree in the first place? What does marriage mean to you?

Okay, she was wrong to ever participate in that discussion, and to let it go on as long as it did. A week? Wow. Again, I don't know how she made it through the discussion, much less lasted a week. I would have been boiling if dh had not immediately told me not to even consider such a thing, that he would never allow it. That's the reaction I would expect if I ever brought something like that up.

JDR, women are sensitive. Just the thought of our man doing something, without his actually doing it, cuts us to the quick. She probably has terrible self-doubt now, and terrible doubt in you. She feels like if you agreed to even possibly betray her, it is as good as betraying her.

I would just come clean on the whole thing, admit it was stupid and wrong and you never should have even contemplated it. Humbly ask her to give you another chance. 

Transparency, and active listening, and sincere apologizing. That's what I suggest.


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## SunnyT

And then tell her... no more sh*t tests. Because that is bs.... I don't get why people do that, seems immature. Ruins honesty. 

I think if you want to keep her you might have to cave...for the sake of the marriage. I think she owes you an apology also, but I don't think you'll get it. Guess you have to figure out how much you want to save this relationship vs. being right.


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## jld

SunnyT said:


> And then tell her... no more sh*t tests. Because that is bs.... I don't get why people do that, seems immature. Ruins honesty.
> 
> I think if you want to keep her you might have to cave...for the sake of the marriage. I think she owes you an apology also, but I don't think you'll get it. Guess you have to figure out how much you want to save this relationship vs. being right.


:iagree:

**** tests are wrong, but some of us women do them. I know better, but I did one a few weeks ago (not as bad as this one). Can't help myself sometimes, I guess.

If you commit to transparency, OP, you will be setting a great example for her. Be the leader in this. She will come to trust you, and she will feel safe enough to be transparent, too.


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## SunnyT

Seems like he was being transparent when they had a real, two-way conversation that bit him in the a**. Soooooooooooo, in this case isn't it more like ....guard what you say? Which sucks. I'd tell her that too... later, after apologizing/groveling.

"We" don't do them. It makes no sense.


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## John Doe Rae

Catherine602 said:


> You didn't do it because you did not have the opportunity yet. You had no way of knowing if she would go out that w/e and pick up some guy. Nor did it concern you.
> 
> But that's who you are. She may not have known that the bond you felt to her was so weak.
> 
> Or that sex for you is a pleasure seeking activity and not a confirmation of your love and caring for your wife.


Catherine602. I didn't ask you to judge me. You don't even know me or my character. I respect and appreciate your opinion up to the point where you decided you knew me.



Catherine602 said:


> I think your wife's point is that you had no problem with her seeing another man. The average man would like variety of of sex with another woman.
> 
> However, they have strong negative feelings about their wives being with OM. Love makes most men possessive and protective of the woman.
> 
> You don't mind sharing your wife and you don't mind that she may be at risk with OM. You don't care enough that she would even want another man.
> 
> If I were in her place, I would reconsider who I married and if you were the type of man I wanted in my life.


Catherine602. This is the part I respect. Thank you for your input.


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## See_Listen_Love

This looks a bit fabricated to me, it is a caricature of a relational problem. Why is there no more detail to the rest of the relation?


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## WorkingOnMe

John Doe Rae said:


> Catherine602. I didn't ask you to judge me. You don't even know me or my character. I respect and appreciate your opinion up to the point where you decided you knew me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Catherine602. This is the part I respect. Thank you for your input.



Open your eyes and you may learn something. Frankly your response is telling.


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## WorkingOnMe

See_Listen_Love said:


> This looks a bit fabricated to me, it is a caricature of a relational problem. Why is there no more detail to the rest of the relation?



And then the aggressive response to anything that doesn't support his position. Looks like an agenda.


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## John Doe Rae

jld said:


> JDR, why did you agree in the first place? What does marriage mean to you?
> 
> Okay, she was wrong to ever participate in that discussion, and to let it go on as long as it did. A week? Wow. Again, I don't know how she made it through the discussion, much less lasted a week. I would have been boiling if dh had not immediately told me not to even consider such a thing, that he would never allow it. That's the reaction I would expect if I ever brought something like that up.
> 
> JDR, women are sensitive. Just the thought of our man doing something, without his actually doing it, cuts us to the quick. She probably has terrible self-doubt now, and terrible doubt in you. She feels like if you agreed to even possibly betray her, it is as good as betraying her.
> 
> I would just come clean on the whole thing, admit it was stupid and wrong and you never should have even contemplated it. Humbly ask her to give you another chance.
> 
> Transparency, and active listening, and sincere apologizing. That's what I suggest.


Thank you again jld. I will gladly take your advice. I realized I f***** up and I understand why. I am just trying to save what is left of our marriage.


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## jld

SunnyT said:


> Seems like he was being transparent when they had a real, two-way conversation that bit him in the a**. Soooooooooooo, in this case isn't it more like ....guard what you say? Which sucks. I'd tell her that too... later, after apologizing/groveling.
> 
> "We" don't do them. It makes no sense.


You're right. They don't make sense. I will change my wording.

And he probably needs to reconsider his boundaries. But he is where he is, and I think being transparent is the way to start to solve problems. He has to admit where he is before he can get to a better place, I think.


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## John Doe Rae

See_Listen_Love said:


> This looks a bit fabricated to me, it is a caricature of a relational problem. Why is there no more detail to the rest of the relation?


What more would you like to know?


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## John Doe Rae

WorkingOnMe said:


> And then the aggressive response to anything that doesn't support his position. Looks like an agenda.


If you look at the other half of Catherine's post, the part that I thanked her for, she wasn't supporting my position at all. I respect her opinion of the situation. I didn't ask for a character analysis. While I also respect freedom of speech, I am asking how to fix my marriage.


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## Jung_admirer

John Doe Rae said:


> Ok. So my wife and I watched a show about open relationships. We got into a long discussion about what rules we would have if we were in an open relationship. The rules were you could only meet people via Facebook or Xbox Live. Then you could only meet the person in real life after 1 year. We both agreed. The problem is.....turns out it was a trap. After a week or so she tells me that it was all a ploy to see if I would agree.
> 
> Her Side
> She says that I shouldn't have agreed because I should not want to be with anyone else and I should not want her to be with anyone else.
> 
> My Side
> I say that even though I agreed, I didn't participate. I didn't talk to anyone or try to date anyone because I don't need or want anyone.
> 
> Her Side
> Then she says that it doesn't matter that I didn't participate. What matters is that I agreed in the first place.
> 
> My Side
> I say that it doesn't matter that I agreed. What matters is that I didn't even try to be with anyone.
> _______________________________________
> 
> Now she is talking about divorce. Am I wrong or is she wrong? How can I fix this? Please help. All opinions and advice are welcome.


Your wife's sh|t test was simultaneously disingenuous and dishonest. How can you know what is truth and what is fabrication? (she fabricated the desire for an open relationship). I would give her a very serious consequence. You must show that this level of betrayal will not be tolerated. Be honest about what you think about an open relationship.


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## CharlotteMcdougall

John Doe Rae said:


> Ok. So my wife and I watched a show about open relationships. *We got into a long discussion about what rules we would have if we were in an open relationship.* The rules were you could only meet people via Facebook or Xbox Live. Then you could only meet the person in real life after 1 year. We both agreed. *The problem is.....turns out it was a trap. After a week or so she tells me that it was all a ploy to see if I would agree. *
> 
> Her Side
> She says that I shouldn't have agreed because I should not want to be with anyone else and I should not want her to be with anyone else.
> 
> My Side
> I say that even though I agreed, I didn't participate. I didn't talk to anyone or try to date anyone because I don't need or want anyone.
> 
> Her Side
> Then she says that it doesn't matter that I didn't participate. What matters is that I agreed in the first place.
> 
> My Side
> I say that it doesn't matter that I agreed. What matters is that I didn't even try to be with anyone.
> _______________________________________
> 
> Now she is talking about divorce. Am I wrong or is she wrong? How can I fix this? Please help. All opinions and advice are welcome.


I think that your wife is being immature. She should never try to trap you by bringing up hypothetical situations and then punishing you for answering her questions honestly. 

It is very worrying that your wife would divorce you over something so small. Quite frankly, I wouldn't want to stay married to someone who was so spiteful and manipulative. 

Don't grovel and play into this kind of drama. Tell your wife that while you are sorry you hurt her feelings, she was completely wrong for setting you up to fail her little "test". I would also remind her that two adults do not need to play games. 

I once asked my husband how he would feel about an open marriage just out of curiosity. His response was: "I didn't get married to share my wife with other men." I appreciated his response but I was fully prepared for whatever answer my husband gave. It never makes sense to ask a question that you don't want an answer to.


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## Catherine602

Without trying to explain, rationalize, or defend your position, find out exactly what she feels and why she feels it.

The average woman whats to feel that the man she loves will fight for her, protect them, be jealous and possessive, if another man try's to poach. 

That makes us feel special. For most women, that confirms their view of manhood.

To me, men who don't mind if their wives have sex with other men seem weak, less than other men, unable to stand up to other men, asexual and not able to protect their wives or my children. 

Your wife may feel all, some or none of those things. You need to find out how she sees you now. She may not have processed it all. 

What you do and say now is important. She thinks that this is serious so it is serious. The fact that you did not act on it means nothing to her. 

Your intension is important. I have a hard time figuring out how you can think of your wife having sex with other men but that's me. 

Have you been in open relationships before or is it something you considered only with her? If so, did you let her know before marriage. 

Are you dissatisfied with your sex life, do you feel sexually attracted to your wife? These are the things you should consider and discuss with your wife. 

You my think that it means nothing because you did nothing yet but it means something to your wife.


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## Catherine602

Jung_admirer said:


> Your wife's sh|t test was simultaneously disingenuous and dishonest. How can you know what is truth and what is fabrication? (she fabricated the desire for an open relationship). I would give her a very serious consequence. You must show that this level of betrayal will not be tolerated. Be honest about what you think about an open relationship.


I wouldn't take this attitude. If you don't want to do irreparable damage to the relationship and stand a good chance of D that is. 

Certainly you care more about your wife's feelings than being all righteous. 

This seems like a misstep a teenager or would make. You have had relationships before. You know how women are. 

Do you have any indication that your wife was the lest bit open to this? Has she been open to having you see other woman before.


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## Theseus

jld said:


> JDR, women are sensitive. Just the thought of our man doing something, without his actually doing it, cuts us to the quick. She probably has terrible self-doubt now, and terrible doubt in you.


I agree with this. She probably has insecurity problems and this didn't help her any. 



> _I would just come clean on the whole thing, admit it was stupid and wrong and you never should have even contemplated it. Humbly ask her to give you another chance.
> 
> Transparency, and active listening, and sincere apologizing. That's what I suggest._


JLD, I *STRONGLY* disagree with that. 

How can you listen to someone who is playing mind games and trying to trap you? I wouldn't go there until I got some sincere assurances that she isn't going to pull that stunt again. Relationships are supposed to be based on honesty. If anything, she should be apologizing to him. 

And what does he apologize for exactly? If it went down as he told us, then he didn't do anything wrong. 

Some people have open relationships. I know it wouldn't work for you but it works for them. There is nothing wrong with that, as long as BOTH partners agree to it. Now, I'm not trying to derail this into a debate over the merits of open relationships, there are enough of those on TAM. 

If the OP wanted an open relationship and kept insisting on it when his wife said no, then he would be wrong, and then he should apologize. But that is not the case here.


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## Theseus

Catherine602 said:


> You don't mind sharing your wife and you don't mind that she may be at risk with OM. You don't care enough that she would even want another man.
> 
> If I were in her place, I would reconsider who I married and if you were the type of man I wanted in my life.



If I was in his place I would reconsider who I married and if she were the type of woman I wanted in my life. 

Catherine, you and some other posters seem fixated on an open marriage that didn't happen. Personally I think the breach in trust, which did happen, is much more serious. From now on, the OP is going to be afraid to discuss anything honestly with his wife, and if that's not fixed I see them doomed in the long run.


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## jld

Theseus said:


> JLD, I *STRONGLY* disagree with that.
> 
> How can you listen to someone who is playing mind games and trying to trap you? I wouldn't go there until I got some sincere assurances that she isn't going to pull that stunt again. Relationships are supposed to be based on honesty. If anything, she should be apologizing to him.
> 
> And what does he apologize for exactly? If it went down as he told us, then he didn't do anything wrong.
> 
> Some people have open relationships. I know it wouldn't work for you but it works for them. There is nothing wrong with that, as long as BOTH partners agree to it. Now, I'm not trying to derail this into a debate over the merits of open relationships, there are enough of those on TAM. I'm just saying he has nothing to apologize for.
> 
> If the OP wanted an open relationship and kept insisting on it when his wife said no, then he would be wrong, and then he should apologize. But that is not the case here.


How about the OP sitting down with his wife and having a frank talk about what happened? Just really trying to listen to her and get her view on this? And then giving his own. Basically just each trying to understand the other.

And once they can both share their hearts with one another, they see what the problem is, and how they want to fix it.

We are all kind of guessing here, Theseus. We don't really know what set her off. The OP can find out.

And you are right; I am projecting. I am putting myself in the wife's shoes and imagining how I would feel. 

And you are right that **** tests are wrong. I was feeling pretty bad about the one I subjected dh to a few weeks ago. They really are unfair. And dh let me know that when I did it. And I hope I never do another one.


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## manticore

Jung_admirer said:


> Your wife's sh|t test was simultaneously disingenuous and dishonest. How can you know what is truth and what is fabrication? (*she fabricated the desire for an open relationship*). I would give her a very serious consequence. You must show that this level of betrayal will not be tolerated. Be honest about what you think about an open relationship.


I agree, I have to admit that I am a little surprised with the answer from the ladies in this thread, specially because I have read the threads of some of them and I share some of their views, and for me here is clear that the wife in this case is or looking an excuse to divorce (maybe they have previous problems and she was looking for a way out) or she want to have leverage in the relationship, anyway I feel that what she did was a trap.

anyone can do the same dishonest tactic to another person, let me give you a simulated example with myself. My girfriend of almost 4 years and I have shared or views about wedding ceremonies and reception parties and how much is reasonable to expend in one, but lets say that while watching a program about weddings we have the next conversation:

Me:
you know what?, we are just going to marry once, so I say lets make a big wedding and it does not matter how much it cost.

GF:
are you sure?, didn't we say that we would use most of our savings as deposit for a house.

Me:
sure, but forget it, we can always work some years more but we just gonna have one wedding, lets make a dream wedding reality, 7k wedding dress, 500 guests, 100 bucks the plate, live music with the more expesive band in the more expensive ballroom available, it does not matter if it cost more than 100k.

GF:
okey, I am beggining to love the idea lets do this.

we keep decussing the details and one week later I tell her this:

Me: you know what?, I just realized that I cannot marry a woman like you, do you really wanted to expend all our savings in a wedding party?, really more than 100K with average incomes in a wedding, I can not marry a person that shallow, it was a test and you failed horrible.

GF:
No I don't care for the wedding party I swear, I will marry in the backyard if you want, please I just want to be with you.

Me:
No, no, you showed your selfish swallow colors and how you really are, and you can not take it back now, this relationship is over.

was it fair?, of course not, is pure manipulation and deception, OP I don't know why your wife is doing this, or if she is using it as excuse but what she did was certainly disingenuous and dishonest as "Jung_admirer" wrote.


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## appletree

I think your wife has a problem being overly jealous. There are fears of loss and abandonment behind it.


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## Tess112

As a woman I try my best not to do those little "tests", but as jld mentioned, I sometimes I can't help myself. It's hard to explain.

Talking about divorce though is certainly overreacting.


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## loveadvice

When I was younger, I was more prone to adding drama to a relationship.

As I got older, however, I find that I try to not test my man in any way other than in a direct straightforward way. I cherish my relationships more now than I did when I was younger. 

The tactic your wife used may not be nice from the get-go or, in the alternative, she may have started out having fun with the discussion and genuinely contemplated the ideas, but having thought about them a while and perhaps having discussed them with her girlfriends, she slowly became outraged that you would concede to the idea of an open relationship. 

I personally would be repulsed if my husband agreed to an open relationship, but that's just me.


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## See_Listen_Love

John Doe Rae said:


> What more would you like to know?




I am missing just about everything but this from your marital problems. This last trick which now leads her to considering divorce??

There should be a ten times larger iceberg out of our vision. So you tell us by far not enough in your first painting of your story.




> Ok. So my wife and I watched a show about open relationships *[1]*. We got into a long discussion about what rules we would have if we were in an open relationship *[2]*. The rules were you could only meet people via Facebook or Xbox Live. Then you could only meet the person in real life after 1 year. We both agreed *[3]*. The problem is.....turns out it was a trap. After a week or so she tells me that it was all a ploy to see if I would agree *[4]*
> 
> Her Side
> She says that I shouldn't have agreed because I should not want to be with anyone else and I should not want her to be with anyone else.
> 
> My Side
> I say that even though I agreed, I didn't participate. I didn't talk to anyone or try to date anyone because I don't need or want anyone.
> 
> Her Side
> Then she says that it doesn't matter that I didn't participate. What matters is that I agreed in the first place.
> 
> My Side
> I say that it doesn't matter that I agreed. What matters is that I didn't even try to be with anyone.
> _______________________________________
> 
> Now she is talking about divorce *[5]*. Am I wrong or is she wrong? How can I fix this? Please help. All opinions and advice are welcome.


It looks like the 'Manual for the One Step Divorce'.


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## lovelygirl

Yeah! Pure sh*t test! 

The idea of my H agreeing to an open relationship would be a TOTAL TURN OFF for me!!! It would show me that he'd have no problem sharing me while, I, on the other hand wouldn't accept it even if I was to joke. 

I agree it was not fair to her to test you this way but probably it revealed a side of yours she didn't know, OP. 
Whether you managed to do or not do anything, that is another matter. *You didn't do anything because you probably didn't happen to meet someone else to fulfill your fantasy. It was just a matter of time.*

You, putting yourself out there for other women, would be enough for me to break off the marriage.


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## PieceOfSky

jld said:


> And you are right that **** tests are wrong. I was feeling pretty bad about the one I subjected dh to a few weeks ago. They really are unfair. And dh let me know that when I did it. And I hope I never do another one.






Jld,



Does it help or hurt your marriage and relationship for your husband to let you know the unfairness as it happens? 




Can you imagine a marriage succeeding when sh!t tests are given without being treated for what they are?

There are at least two serious matters for them to discuss: What concerns her about his apparent willingness and interest in an open marriage, and the importance of honest straightforward communication.


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## PieceOfSky

Op,



Perhaps you could boost your credibility with those here that smell troll by telling us the name of the program you watched, and what network and in what market it was on within the last couple of weeks.


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## PieceOfSky

Catherine602 said:


> The average man would like variety of of sex with another woman
> .




Not true in my experience. Nor relevant in any way I can see.


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## John Doe Rae

PieceOfSky said:


> Op,
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps you could boost your credibility with people here that smell troll by telling us the name of the program you watched, and what network and in what market it was on within the last couple of weeks.


The sho was called Taboo. The episode was two men and a woman that lived very hapilly together in their open marriage. I dont remember the network. History channel maybe? You can look up the name of the show.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Married but Happy

Someone who puts you through sh1t tests IS sh1t. End of story.


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## DoF

Philat said:


> A trap? Why was she trying to trap you? This sounds like a lot of nothing to me.


Almost as if she is looking for ways/reasons to leave her husband......


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## ScarletBegonias

Gosh,don't ya just love having little landmines dotted into every conversation w/your partner? Disguised as sh*t tests so they're perfectly acceptable to some.

No wonder people have such a hard time with honest communication anymore. You never know when it's a "trap" waiting to be launched back into your face. Wow. How immature and ridiculous. Wife is obviously trying to pick a fight and make OP look like a jerk for trying to have an open mind in a hypothetical situation.


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## NextTimeAround

My attitude is that anyone who baits me, gets what they deserve. And i am careful even my "hypothetical questions." 

It sounds as if that's what your wife was doing. she may have been baiting you because she is interested in one particular person.

Keep quiet and do your research.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

She was hoping deep down inside, that you were a better stronger man- who truly loved her and would always put the marraige first. 

You aren't.


----------



## PBear

*LittleDeer* said:


> She was hoping deep down inside, that you were a better stronger man- who truly loved her and would always put the marraige first.
> 
> You aren't.


Or else she was looking for an excuse to ditch him, and found a way that makes him look like the bad guy and feel guilty...

We'll likely never hear the entire truth of what happened and what either one meant...

C


----------



## alphaomega

jld said:


> Well, I am surprised she got through a long discussion on it. She must have been hoping the whole time that you would call it off, that you would say there is no way you would ever even consider that. I bet that is what she was hoping.
> 
> Yes, it was a **** test. We women do them a lot. But that is a major one to fail, OP.
> 
> If I were you, I would sit down and have a heart to heart. Mostly you listening to her heart. If she is considering divorce, you are in a lot of trouble.
> 
> Use active listening. Basically repeat back to her what she tells you she is feeling or thinking, or better yet, paraphrase it. But listen sincerely. Seek to understand. Tell her, "Help me understand," -- and then genuinely try to.
> 
> Don't listen to people telling you she is wrong. She doesn't feel that way, and she is the one you are dealing with. Women's emotions are not the same as men's logic.
> 
> Good luck. Really, good luck pulling out of this one.


I call bullshat!

She set him up! Plain and simple. Shat test...martyr play...guilt trap...bait and switch...whatever you want to call it.

In the end, it's juvenile. She wants to see him grovel and beg for forgiveness. to prove he loves her. That's what she wants out of this..IMO

In the future....she gets to have discussions and agree to other things....then blame him for going along with it. This will never end.

OP, call her bluff.

Sit down and tell her you love her, but if she wants a divorce then you understand. And ask her which one of you should see the lawyer first. Be kind and loving...in control. Don't get emotional.

Then just sit on it for a few days or weeks.

If she's adamant about the divorce then you'll have your answer.
If she's playing high school games, then you'll see her backpedal like theres no tomorrow.


----------



## lifeistooshort

I must admit I'm a little surprised by the number of men here that have vilified the wife. I too am not a fan of sh!t tests, which this one clearly was and you failed it miserably OP, but men are usually quick to point out how agreeing to your wife f!cking another man is telling her she is of low value to you. This seems a little inconsistent to me, perhaps someone can clear this up? I know there are a few couples that have successfully pulled off open marriages and I'm not here to judge that, but I know three couples that tried it and it damaged all of them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## alphaomega

Catherine602 said:


> I think your wife's point is that you had no problem with her seeing another man. The average man would like variety of of sex with another woman.
> 
> However, they have strong negative feelings about their wives being with OM. Love makes most men possessive and protective of the woman.
> 
> You don't mind sharing your wife and you don't mind that she may be at risk with OM. You don't care enough that she would even want another man.
> 
> If I were in her place, I would reconsider who I married and if you were the type of man I wanted in my life.
> 
> You didn't do it because you did not have the opportunity yet. You had no way of knowing if she would go out that w/e and pick up some guy. Nor did it concern you.
> 
> But that's who you are. She may not have known that the bond you felt to her was so weak.
> 
> Or that sex for you is a pleasure seeking activity and not a confirmation of your love and caring for your wife.
> 
> Are you sure you want to stay married to your wife? It is possible that you don't love her but she is a convenience companion.


Sigh.....

The ladies' thought process baffles me still...

Sorry ladies...I'm not wired this way...I'll never understand this....

The lesson learned here?

Am I fat?
Fu(k no!!!

Does this dress look good on me?
Fu(k no! It would look better on the floor of the bedroom!

Do you think I should buy these white shoes or brown shoes?
Fu(k no! Get them both!

Im open to the idea of an open relationship. Are you too?
Fu(k no! The only thing open in my bedroom are your legs, baby! Now shut up and get over here!


----------



## ScarletBegonias

If I look fat in something my husband better damn well tell me and not let me go outside in something unflattering.
Same goes for other opinions.Gimme the truth or don't say anything at all.
Our conversation looks like this: "sweetie,I feel fat in this...what do you think?" "first,you're not fat but I don't like that dress on you.Not the right cut for your body baby."


----------



## ReformedHubby

Wait....people use Xbox Live to meet other folks for hooking up? Its official. I'm old. Had no idea that was even possible.


----------



## jld

Manticore, I appreciate your analogy. But the morality questions around a wedding are not the same, or at the same level, as an open marriage. The only morality question I can see about an expensive wedding, besides whether or not it is affordable, is is it the wisest use of money.

Open marriage is trickier. I think I offended Married But Happy, with whom I have had a few very insightful conversations, and I am sorry about that. It works for him and others very well. But my own knee jerk reaction to it is No Way! There are many worries I would have about such a thing. I just can't, for myself, think of any positives. And I would bet my life, and I am completely serious, that dh feels the same.

I do think the OP is okay with open marriage. For the wife, we don't know. We don't know if this is a trick to be able to divorce him. We don't know any background to their marriage. But something triggered her, and the OP can find that out.


----------



## Jung_admirer

lifeistooshort said:


> I must admit I'm a little surprised by the number of men here that have vilified the wife. I too am not a fan of sh!t tests, which this one clearly was and you failed it miserably OP, but men are usually quick to point out how agreeing to your wife f!cking another man is telling her she is of low value to you. This seems a little inconsistent to me, perhaps someone can clear this up? I know there are a few couples that have successfully pulled off open marriages and I'm not here to judge that, but I know three couples that tried it and it damaged all of them.


What I realized in R with my fWW is a lesson I failed to learn 20 some years ago: Do not tolerate deception in your relationships. 

OP, the use of sh|t tests shows a serious lack of character, maturity & honesty. Trust is a fragile thing, and your DW is willing to trample trust to cope with her relationship anxiety.


----------



## Caribbean Man

*LittleDeer* said:


> She was hoping deep down inside, that you were a better stronger man- who truly loved her and would always put the marraige first.
> 
> You aren't.


I'll have to go against the grain on this one and agree with this post.

Every man is supposed to know his woman, her moods , and how she communicates. Relationships are a constant work in progress.

I'm not saying that she's right to do what she did, but definitely the OP got caught . Things like that never come " _out of the blue._."
Something must have triggered her to hypothesize , and set the trap for him.
Of course it's not a good or open form of communication , but I think her concerns might have been legitimate, based on her reaction.

Long before we were married or even dating, my wife and I were good friends. One time we were talking and she asked me if I preferred women with bib boobs [ I always dated that type] or small boobs. I told her that I preferred women with big boobs. 
Back then I never thought that we'd end up together , dating. I always thought that we'd be " just friends."

Anyways , years later, we started dating and got married. One night in bed we were fooling around , and she asked me out of the blue what I thought of her boobs. Compared to what I was accustomed to, she has ordinary sized, perky tits, but at the time I didn't make the connection, and I told her I loved her boobs, because I usually gave a lot of attention to them. Then she chose to remind me of what I had said many years before, which had forgotten.
Everything went southward from there , an argument started and she starts crying
Later the next day we spoke about it and made up.
As time passed, she had a few more sh!t tests for me. But by then , I had learnt exactly how to manuever around them or skillfully deflect them. Then the sh!t tests stopped completely.

That was a stage in our relationship that helped me pay much more attention to the way she communicated and exactly how she feels to a point where I can accurately predict how she would react to certain situations and stimuli.

Now whenever I think of it, I can't help but laugh.


----------



## Mr The Other

It probably is a **** test. It might not be.

It might be that when she said it, having just seen the programme, it really did tempt her. However, in the meantime, you accepted it and she had time to reassess and find the idea horrific.

She wanted you to be possessive at the time, but she wanted open. A few days later she can not believe that she had ever wanted an open relationship so she believes that it must have been a test.


----------



## jld

PieceOfSky said:


> Jld,
> 
> Does it help or hurt your marriage and relationship for your husband to let you know the unfairness as it happens?
> 
> Can you imagine a marriage succeeding when sh!t tests are given without being treated for what they are?
> 
> There are at least two serious matters for them to discuss: What concerns her about his apparent willingness and interest in an open marriage, and the importance of honest straightforward communication.


I totally agree with your last paragraph. And I am sorry I did not address the trust issue from both sides. I definitely identified with the wife last night.

You know, the **** test I gave dh a few weeks ago is honestly kind of vague in my mind right now, but I do remember knowing very clearly that I was being a little **** to him, and doing it anyway. And it was not nearly on the scale of what the OP went through. 

Basically, I was in a ***** mood and was probably frustrated with dh about something and took it out on him. It was wrong for me to do that. I did apologize when it was over, and probably would have on my own, but he took action first. 

After he did, as I recall, I calmed down and came to my senses and we talked about it. And when I talk, I put it all out on the table with dh: the good, the bad, and the ugly. I should have done that from the beginning, and skipped the **** test.

I think you have a good question as to why we do them. I think for me, it comes from insecurity, like I want to really know what he thinks or would do, without my telling him what I think he should do. Maybe it's a character test? I don't know.

It's funny how the men are reacting, though. Dh does not take these things personally from me. He gets irritated, and he deals with me, but then it is over. There is no lingering resentment, no long term consequences in any way, that's for sure. Dh is secure. He knows who he is, what he believes in, and what he will tolerate.

And he does not have the same expectations from me that he has from himself. I think that is why he doesn't build up long term resentment. 

He told me once that he is very careful with his words to me, that even when he gets angry with me, he knows he needs to control himself, and especially what he says to me. He said he knows I can be crushed by his words, because while I emote freely and just let my emotions fly, he does not, and so his words carry much more weight than mine.

I am so grateful to be married to a mature, responsible man.

We both think he is responsible for this marriage. I can help, and be supportive, but he is the one who wanted to marry me and have children with me, and he was very clear about his expectations. I accepted the package, and have complied with his directives.

Our marriage might be almost as controversial as an open marriage, lol. We basically have kind of an old-fashioned, traditional marriage in many ways. But hey, it works for us. Dh gets what he wants out of it, and my insecurities are soothed and not allowed to threaten the marriage. I just don't have that kind of power in the marriage. 

Equal relationship marriages seem a lot trickier that way, with the way everything seems to have to be negotiated and everybody has to agree to everything all the time, and it's like there are no differences between the male and the female. But it is the standard model for marriage now, so I guess everybody is trying to deal with it.


----------



## Jung_admirer

Catherine602 said:


> I wouldn't take this attitude. If you don't want to do irreparable damage to the relationship and stand a good chance of D that is.
> 
> Certainly you care more about your wife's feelings than being all righteous.
> 
> This seems like a misstep a teenager or would make. You have had relationships before. You know how women are.
> 
> Do you have any indication that your wife was the lest bit open to this? Has she been open to having you see other woman before.


Catherine, if the DW wants to divorce because of the honest opinion of the OP ... what left is there to say? Should he apologize for being who he is?

It's hard to believe you are giving the DW a pass on the sh|t test. :scratchhead:

The issue in not the morality of open marriage vs Manticore's wedding analogy. We are talking about the morality of deception in marriage. The OP's wife failed miserably, and that was no sh|t test.

Let me add one more point: I tried to be more like JLD's husband in the past, accepting the insecurities with patience and gentleness. My fWW's PA changed my disposition forever.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Caribbean Man said:


> I'll have to go against the grain on this one and agree with this post.
> 
> Every man is supposed to know his woman, her moods , and how she communicates. Relationships are a constant work in progress.
> 
> I'm not saying that she's right to do what she did, but definitely the OP got caught . Things like that never come " _out of the blue._."
> Something must have triggered her to hypothesize , and set the trap for him.
> Of course it's not a good or open form of communication , but I think her concerns might have been legitimate, based on her reaction.
> 
> Long before we were married or even dating, my wife and I were good friends. One time we were talking and she asked me if I preferred women with bib boobs [ I always dated that type] or small boobs. I told her that I preferred women with big boobs.
> Back then I never thought that we'd end up together , dating. I always thought that we'd be " just friends."
> 
> Anyways , years later, we started dating and got married. One night in bed we were fooling around , and she asked me out of the blue what I thought of her boobs. Compared to what I was accustomed to, she has ordinary sized, perky tits, but at the time I didn't make the connection, and I told her I loved her boobs, because I usually gave a lot of attention to them. Then she chose to remind me of what I had said many years before, which had forgotten.
> Everything went southward from there , an argument started and she starts crying
> Later the next day we spoke about it and made up.
> As time passed, she had a few more sh!t tests for me. But by then , I had learnt exactly how to manuever around them or skillfully deflect them. Then the sh!t tests stopped completely.
> 
> That was a stage in our relationship that helped me pay much more attention to the way she communicated and exactly how she feels to a point where I can accurately predict how she would react to certain situations and stimuli.
> 
> Now whenever I think of it, I can't help but laugh.



You're a wise man indeed. There's probably a seminar market for what you've figured out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Catherine602

Jung_admirer said:


> Catherine, if the DW wants to divorce because of the honest opinion of the OP ... what left is there to say? Should he apologize for being who he is?
> 
> It's hard to believe you are giving the DW a pass on the sh|t test. :scratchhead:
> 
> The issue in not the morality of open marriage vs Manticore's wedding analogy. We are talking about the morality of deception in marriage. The OP's wife failed miserably, and that was no sh|t test.
> 
> Let me add one more point: I tried to be more like JLD's husband in the past, accepting the insecurities with patience and gentleness. My fWW's PA changed my disposition forever.


He can lecture his wife about the morality of her deception and ignore her feelings. How often does that work? He asked for help to save his marriage.

He has had some helpful post that he may be useful if he wants to do that. Mixed in there are posts that outline the burden that women are for men and women-think.

If he wants to debate his wife about sh!t test and her insecurities and deceptions at this time then he should be ready for the fallout. 

She may stay but there will be resentment. When he feels unloved as a man and needs her understanding she may be remind him that there is as much man-think as women-think. . 

You can't expect more than you give. Understand her now even if it is not rational to you OP. She will do the same for you in the future. Get righteous about how wrong she is and she will do the same in the future. Or she may not be there.


----------



## Jung_admirer

Caribbean Man said:


> Every man is supposed to know his woman, her moods , and how she communicates.


I disagree. You have found a way to bridge a gap when communications are askance. I have no desire to be a mind reader. The premise of "If you loved me you would know" is lacking. I simply state, "Because we are two different people, tell me how you feel about this". Is this too much to ask of a partner?

Oh, and why isn't the inverse true? ... that a woman knows her man such that sh|t tests are not necessary.


----------



## Jung_admirer

Catherine602 said:


> He can lecture his wife about the morality of her deception and ignore her feelings. How often does that work?


Who suggested that? I suggested he do both ... call her on her behavior and engage his feelings openly and directly with his DW. The OP can choose the order in which to address these two issues, but there are two issues to be discussed. 



Jung_admirer said:


> Your wife's sh|t test was simultaneously disingenuous and dishonest. How can you know what is truth and what is fabrication? (she fabricated the desire for an open relationship). I would give her a very serious consequence. You must show that this level of betrayal will not be tolerated. *Be honest about what you think about an open relationship.*


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Her technique was destructive

He does not have to tolerate that

But he can acknowledge her insecurity, although at the end of the day it belongs to her

My gut says she wanted the divorce already, and needed an excuse that didn't put the blame on her and he walked right into it. Unfortunately.

But just my opinion.... I certainly wasn't there.


----------



## Theseus

lifeistooshort said:


> I must admit I'm a little surprised by the number of men here that have vilified the wife. I too am not a fan of sh!t tests, which this one clearly was and you failed it miserably OP, but men are usually quick to point out how agreeing to your wife f!cking another man is telling her she is of low value to you. This seems a little inconsistent to me, perhaps someone can clear this up?


There is no inconsistency there, because obviously if a couple believes in having an open marriage, then they don't believe their "value" is determined by who they sleep with. 

Let me ask you then, what is a marriage? If you think the core of marriage is sex, then I can see why you feel as you do. 

If you think instead it's a partnership based on trust (as I do) then you would see the wife's actions as the problem here in the OP's situation.

Of course, we don't have the whole back story, I am only going off the information here in this thread. Open marriages, when they do work, only work if both partners totally trust one another, and that's actually a pretty rare thing.


----------



## Theseus

Blossom Leigh said:


> My gut says she wanted the divorce already, and needed an excuse that didn't put the blame on her and he walked right into it. Unfortunately.
> 
> But just my opinion.... I certainly wasn't there.


My gut tells me something a little different. I suspect that at first she genuinely wanted to do it, but then changed her mind and felt disgusted after thinking through the ramifications and how insecure it would make her feel. So then she turned it around, said this was all a test, so that she could claim the moral high ground and give herself the position of power in the marriage. But that's also my guess.


----------



## DoF

Theseus said:


> There is no inconsistency there, because obviously if a couple believes in having an open marriage, then they don't believe their "value" is determined by who they sleep with.


Nothing wrong with that.



Theseus said:


> If you think instead it's a partnership based on trust (as I do) then you would see the wife's actions as the problem here in the OP's situation.
> 
> Of course, we don't have the whole back story, I am only going off the information here in this thread. Open marriages, when they do work, only work if both partners totally trust one another, and that's actually a pretty rare thing.


Question, even if an "open marriage" couple has ALL the trust in the world. I think the actions that they will take can put their trust in jeopardy VERY quickly.

Let's face it, we are not in control of our emotions and sex can VERY easily bring up emotion for a person "you just wanted to have sex with".


----------



## Married but Happy

DoF said:


> Question, even if an "open marriage" couple has ALL the trust in the world. I think the actions that they will take can put their trust in jeopardy VERY quickly.
> 
> Let's face it, we are not in control of our emotions and sex can VERY easily bring up emotion for a person "you just wanted to have sex with".


We may not be _in control _of our emotions, but we can be (and usually are) aware of them and can choose how to act on them. That's what we're always telling cheaters, is it not? That it's a choice? So it would apply to people in open relationships as well. If emotions arise and begin to create issues, choose to end the relationship. In my experience, they often do not arise or create problems.

The big difference between cheaters and those in open relationships is that the couple is (or should be!) fully informed and (presumably) communicate about their plans and experiences, and so can provide a check and balance to keep a correct perspective.


----------



## CharlotteMcdougall

Catherine602 said:


> Without trying to explain, rationalize, or defend your position, find out exactly what she feels and why she feels it.
> 
> The average woman whats to feel that the man she loves will fight for her, protect them, be jealous and possessive, if another man try's to poach.
> 
> That makes us feel special. For most women, that confirms their view of manhood.
> 
> To me, men who don't mind if their wives have sex with other men seem weak, less than other men, unable to stand up to other men, asexual and not able to protect their wives or my children.
> 
> Your wife may feel all, some or none of those things. You need to find out how she sees you now. She may not have processed it all.
> 
> What you do and say now is important. She thinks that this is serious so it is serious. The fact that you did not act on it means nothing to her.
> 
> Your intension is important. I have a hard time figuring out how you can think of your wife having sex with other men but that's me.
> 
> Have you been in open relationships before or is it something you considered only with her? If so, did you let her know before marriage.
> 
> Are you dissatisfied with your sex life, do you feel sexually attracted to your wife? These are the things you should consider and discuss with your wife.
> 
> You my think that it means nothing because you did nothing yet but it means something to your wife.


I agree that most women want to feel protected and fought for.

However, since the OP's wife chose to be conniving and manipulative, it isn't fair to blame him for being forthright. His wife should not have agreed to the pretend conditions if she did not like them.

Mature and rational women simply ask for what they want, rather than setting up random little tests. If I am feeling insecure, I clearly state that to my husband. He will be very affectionate and tell me lovely things about myself. This works far better than stupid hypothetical situations with ulterior motives. 

Catherine602, it seems like you are insulting the OP for _hypothetically_ not minding an open marriage. 

While I don't agree with open marriages, there is no need for me put down others who do. Sexual preferences and kinks do not make people less masculine or feminine. A man who participates in open marriage isn't automatically "asexual" "weak" or "unable to protect their wives and children".

Did you ever think that some men welcome open marriages as an opportunity to sleep with as many women as possible? 

Since this hypothetical situation was set up for the OP to fail, I don't think it is healthy to take shots at him for being honest. I don't understand why you think that his wife was right to play emotional games. 

I know that if I tried this nonsense with my husband, he wouldn't be groveling. My husband would be angry and ask me if I was really going to end our marriage over a PRETEND situation. He would also ask why I would agree to something if it made me uncomfortable. We don't need to play emotional and communication games in our marriage.


----------



## CharlotteMcdougall

ScarletBegonias said:


> Gosh,don't ya just love having little landmines dotted into every conversation w/your partner? Disguised as sh*t tests so they're perfectly acceptable to some.
> 
> No wonder people have such a hard time with honest communication anymore. You never know when it's a "trap" waiting to be launched back into your face. Wow. How immature and ridiculous. Wife is obviously trying to pick a fight and make OP look like a jerk for trying to have an open mind in a hypothetical situation.


:iagree::iagree:

Maybe we are just too open and honest with our husbands.


----------



## CharlotteMcdougall

Catherine602 said:


> I wouldn't take this attitude. If you don't want to do irreparable damage to the relationship and stand a good chance of D that is.
> 
> Certainly you care more about your wife's feelings than being all righteous.
> 
> This seems like a misstep a teenager or would make. You have had relationships before. You know how women are.
> 
> Do you have any indication that your wife was the lest bit open to this? Has she been open to having you see other woman before.


So why is it okay for the wife to be righteous about her blatant manipulation? There isn't anything more adolescent than these kinds of games and tests. 

My husband is willing to call me on my behavior in a manner which is respectful and caring. This shows respect because he believes that I am strong enough to handle adult communication. 

If a man has to live in fear of divorce because he doesn't play into his wife's insecurities and childish need to test him, he is better off with a mature woman who communicates clearly.


----------



## ReformedHubby

Theseus said:


> My gut tells me something a little different. I suspect that at first she genuinely wanted to do it, but then changed her mind and felt disgusted after thinking through the ramifications and how insecure it would make her feel. So then she turned it around, said this was all a test, so that she could claim the moral high ground and give herself the position of power in the marriage. But that's also my guess.


I agree with this. I find it hard to believe that she could talk about it so easily without showing her hand. It should have been apparent since they discussed it at length. She probably did rethink it later on. Hence the 180.


----------



## bandit.45

John Doe Rae, do you think it is possible that your wife may have already had an affair, or is in the midst of one, and is using the open marriage question as a way to be able to continue engaging in it without the guilt?


----------



## bandit.45

I would ask her straight up, if she is seeing someone or had an affair. Just come out with it.


----------



## samyeagar

jld said:


> :iagree:
> 
> ***** tests are wrong, but some of us women do them. I know better, but I did one a few weeks ago (not as bad as this one). Can't help myself sometimes, I guess.
> *
> If you commit to transparency, OP, you will be setting a great example for her. Be the leader in this. She will come to trust you, and she will feel safe enough to be transparent, too.


My STBW tried a few early on in our relationship, and I called her out on them and refused to play. She also tried to use sex as currency early on, and I shut that down as well. Regardless of what the implications are of them, I will not stay in a relationship where covert contracts and sh1t tests are being thrown at me.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Based on what I've seen here and in real life, things in " open marriage " scenarios , tend to head southwards very fast , usually after the first few encounters.

However, this one seems to have gone southwards faster than the speed of light ,even _before_ any actual encounter.

lol


----------



## Married but Happy

Caribbean Man said:


> Based on what I've seen here and in real life, things in " open marriage " scenarios , tend to head southwards very fast , usually after the first few encounters.
> 
> However, this one seems to have gone southwards faster than the speed of light ,even _before_ any actual encounter.
> 
> lol


Yeah, this could be a record breaker for shortest open relationship ever.

On the other hand, mine has been going great for over 14 years - I wonder if that's a record at the other end of the bell curve? lol


----------



## LongWalk

How can we help the OP?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## xakulax

Another man fall victim to the [email protected]$t test lol


----------



## DoF

Caribbean Man said:


> Based on what I've seen here and in real life, things in " open marriage " scenarios , tend to head southwards very fast , usually after the first few encounters.
> 
> However, this one seems to have gone southwards faster than the speed of light ,even _before_ any actual encounter.
> 
> lol


Agreed


----------



## Jung_admirer

"Having suggested that the model of marriage for first adulthood is one of fusion, now we can see how complicated relationships can be. It is astonishing that any relationship works at all. Given the immensity of unconscious forces, the projections, the parental complexes, etc., how can anyone ever he honestly related to another? At first we may be inclined to say, look at history, people have functioned rather well. Then we are forced to admit, of history and our own experience, no, they have not. It has been a grand, confusing, hurtful mess. I am inclined to see the person not as a half seeking its other half - the fusion model- but as a polyhedron, a sphere with many facets. There is no way in the world, even with Miss Perfect or Mr. Wonderful, that one may line up all the planes of two polyhedrons. At best a few. Is this an argument for affairs? -certainly! But it is a bad argument. *I have known a few so-called open marriages, some managed by highly conscious individuals. All failed in the end, in part because, however rational the argument, there are such things as feelings. Even in the most rational of contracts there is jealousy, longing and the need to know where one stands.* So if the metaphor of the polyhedron makes any sense, we can only match up a few of those facets with one person. It represents an argument for multiple friendships, for sure, but this is certainly possible without crossing the sexual frontier. "

-The Middle Passage: From Misery to Meaning in Midlife
By James Hollis

ISBN-10: 0919123600
ISBN-13: 978-0919123601

<end comment> I do acknowledge and respect that several TAM members have made open marriage work. I suggest this is a very rare exception. Are we calling that a unicorn these days?


----------



## jld

Married but Happy said:


> Yeah, this could be a record breaker for shortest open relationship ever.


:rofl:


----------



## JCD

WorkingOnMe said:


> This sounds like a sh!t test to me.


And the divorce thing is probably another sh!t test to see how much she can get him to crawl.


----------



## JCD

jld said:


> JDR, why did you agree in the first place? What does marriage mean to you?
> 
> Okay, she was wrong to ever participate in that discussion, and to let it go on as long as it did. A week? Wow. Again, I don't know how she made it through the discussion, much less lasted a week. I would have been boiling if dh had not immediately told me not to even consider such a thing, that he would never allow it. That's the reaction I would expect if I ever brought something like that up.
> 
> JDR, women are sensitive. Just the thought of our man doing something, without his actually doing it, cuts us to the quick. She probably has terrible self-doubt now, and terrible doubt in you. She feels like if you agreed to even possibly betray her, it is as good as betraying her.
> 
> I would just come clean on the whole thing, admit it was stupid and wrong and you never should have even contemplated it. Humbly ask her to give you another chance.
> 
> Transparency, and active listening, and sincere apologizing. That's what I suggest.



There is one major question which needs to be answered.

*Who was pushing for the open relationship?*

Because if she is pulling a sh!t test and she is pushing and pushing and pushing...why does she get to push until he 'fails'?

There is no way to succeed for him. If he loved her, he'd do it...but since he was willing to do it, he didn't love her.

There was no win with this woman IF she was pushing.


----------



## jld

samyeagar said:


> My STBW tried a few early on in our relationship, and I called her out on them and refused to play. She also tried to use sex as currency early on, and I shut that down as well. Regardless of what the implications are of them, I will not stay in a relationship where covert contracts and sh1t tests are being thrown at me.


Because you can't handle them. Dh can.

And some of the stuff that you have mentioned from your gf are things dh can't handle. You can.

We don't accept what we can't handle. They are our deal breakers. All people have different ones.


----------



## JCD

Catherine602 said:


> I wouldn't take this attitude. If you don't want to do irreparable damage to the relationship and stand a good chance of D that is.
> 
> Certainly you care more about your wife's feelings than being all righteous.
> 
> This seems like a misstep a teenager or would make. You have had relationships before. You know how women are.
> 
> Do you have any indication that your wife was the lest bit open to this? Has she been open to having you see other woman before.


Wait...what makes you think HE was the one pushing this agenda?


----------



## jld

JCD said:


> There is one major question which needs to be answered.
> 
> *Who was pushing for the open relationship?*
> 
> Because if she is pulling a sh!t test and she is pushing and pushing and pushing...why does she get to push until he 'fails'?
> 
> There is no way to succeed for him. If he loved her, he'd do it...but since he was willing to do it, he didn't love her.
> 
> There was no win with this woman IF she was pushing.


They both accepted it. Or seemed to.

Guys, most women don't think like most men, in my experience anyway. You can fight it and demand they do, or you can seek to understand and solve problems.

Maybe they are better off without each other.


----------



## JCD

alphaomega said:


> I call bullshat!
> 
> She set him up! Plain and simple. Shat test...martyr play...guilt trap...bait and switch...whatever you want to call it.
> 
> In the end, it's juvenile. She wants to see him grovel and beg for forgiveness. to prove he loves her. That's what she wants out of this..IMO
> 
> In the future....she gets to have discussions and agree to other things....then blame him for going along with it. This will never end.
> 
> OP, call her bluff.
> 
> Sit down and tell her you love her, but if she wants a divorce then you understand. And ask her which one of you should see the lawyer first. Be kind and loving...in control. Don't get emotional.
> 
> Then just sit on it for a few days or weeks.
> 
> If she's adamant about the divorce then you'll have your answer.
> If she's playing high school games, then you'll see her backpedal like theres no tomorrow.



This is only true if SHE was pushing for the open marriage...or deliberately leading him on.

IF HE was pushing for this, salivating at the young hotties he had lined up in his mind, yeah, she is sort of justified.

But from his reactions here, he wasn't that enthusiastic with the idea and treated it as some sort of stupidity that people say to one another...if he's being honest with us (we have to assume the best until proven otherwise)


----------



## Catherine602

My impression was that it started out as a hypothetical and turned into a discussion of actual rules of engagement. I may have misread it though. We don't know how the conversation developed. 

It is common for one person to try persuade their disinterested partner to agree to pro forming their fantasies. So their might actually have been more here than what the OP is telling. 

Further, I noticed that the posters who took issue with me for allegedly insulting the OP, felt quite free to call his wife terrible names and accuse her of crimes against him. If I read some of these comments about someone I loved, I would find it difficult to see people run them down. 

The OP was quick to defend himself. I am certain he will be as quick to defend a woman that is precious to him, if he is reading these negative posts. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## PieceOfSky

samyeagar said:


> My STBW tried a few early on in our relationship, and I called her out on them and refused to play. She also tried to use sex as currency early on, and I shut that down as well. Regardless of what the implications are of them, I will not stay in a relationship where covert contracts and sh1t tests are being thrown at me.





jld said:


> Because you can't handle them. Dh can.
> 
> And some of the stuff that you have mentioned from your gf are things dh can't handle. You can.
> 
> *We don't accept what we can't handle.* They are our deal breakers. All people have different ones.



Many people, male and female, accept for many years exactly the things they should consciously choose not to accept, in part _because they can handle it_. Doing so is destructive to those doing the accepting, and to those dishing it out. It is destructive to relationships and families. It is destructive to the children watching it.

I have seen the horrible consequences of accepting things one shouldn't. I have seen it directly in my own life, and it may very well prove to be a deciding factor in my marriages eventual dissolution. Had I not been a doormat, had I not silently let things be said and done that hurt -- out of a misguided notion that I should be able to endure it "for her" because she is hurting today for whatever reason -- then the bad behavior might not have escalated. 

Making one's boundaries clear, setting limits, and letting people we love experience the natural consequences of their behavior is something that should be encouraged. It is a loving thing to do, and necessary if people are to grow, and grow together. There is honor in it.

Some of us have developed into "caretakers" capable of extreme self-sacrifice that serves no one. Co-dependency, being driven by fear of losing someone or challenging them too much, and low-self-esteem lead to very high limits of what on "can" handle.

When the behavior that has been accepted without discussion and without consequences is manipulative at its core, don't expect love or anyone to flourish.


----------



## Catherine602

There is a disturbing trend on this site. There are a lot of unsubstantiated labels applied to what is assumed to be typical female behavior. Not only that, but a repertoire of canned aggressive and angry responses are suggested. 

Problems in relationships are not due to typical female behavior. Canned responses are seldom effective communication. The problem is often the interaction between two individuals that are at cross- purposes. 

Men and women make very similar interpersonal mistakes in relationships. We manifest them differently because we approach relationships in distinct ways. 

But an effective response for men and women is the same. Listening with compassion and an attempt to understand and emphasize. If a man brushes his wife off because he labels her behavior as typically female, what stops her from doing the same?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Theseus

Catherine602 said:


> Further, I noticed that the posters who took issue with me for allegedly insulting the OP, felt quite free to call his wife terrible names and accuse her of crimes against him.


Where did anyone call his wife terrible names? Or any names, for that matter?


----------



## JCD

Catherine602 said:


> My impression was that it started out as a hypothetical and turned into a discussion of actual rules of engagement. I may have misread it though. We don't know how the conversation developed.
> 
> It is common for one person to try persuade their disinterested partner to agree to pro forming their fantasies. So their might actually have been more here than what the OP is telling.


Well, that is exactly it. We need the OP to answer WHO pushed for the open relationship, if anybody.

That being said, let us say if it was a hypothetical situation which somehow went farther.

Her passive aggressive stance was a deliberate attempt at misleading to give him as much rope as possible to hang himself...and we have no idea how keen he was on the idea. Just because he discussed the topic didn't mean he was salivating after other women...or was particularly keen on sharing his.

But, OP. Who pushed for the idea?


----------



## sparkyjim

CharlotteMcdougall said:


> However, since the OP's wife chose to be conniving and manipulative, it isn't fair to blame him for being forthright. His wife should not have agreed to the pretend conditions if she did not like them.
> 
> *Mature and rational women simply ask for what they want, rather than setting up random little tests. *If I am feeling insecure, I clearly state that to my husband. He will be very affectionate and tell me lovely things about myself. This works far better than stupid hypothetical situations with ulterior motives.
> 
> 
> 
> I did not read most of this thread....
> 
> But I was lucky to come across this little gem...
> 
> Very well said, Charlotte...


----------



## HikingZion

Incredibly manipulative. That's the problem you guys have, nothing to do with open relationships.


----------



## lovelygirl

JCD said:


> Just because he discussed the topic didn't mean he was salivating after other women...or was particularly keen on sharing his


He didn't just discuss it. *He accepted it. *
Two different things.


----------



## PieceOfSky

Catherine602 said:


> There is a disturbing trend on this site. *There are a lot of unsubstantiated labels applied to what is assumed to be typical female behavior. Not only that, but a repertoire of canned aggressive and angry responses are suggested. *
> 
> Problems in relationships are not due to typical female behavior. Canned responses are seldom effective communication. The problem is often the interaction between two individuals that are at cross- purposes.
> 
> Men and women make very similar interpersonal mistakes in relationships. We manifest them differently because we approach relationships in distinct ways.
> 
> But an effective response for men and women is the same. Listening with compassion and an attempt to understand and emphasize. If a man brushes his wife off *because he labels her behavior as typically female*, what stops her from doing the same?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Quite honestly, I will have to go back and re-read this thread to see what you are referring to in the lines I bolded above. 


Who is assuming what to be "typical female behavior"?
Who labeled her behavior as "typically female"?
Who said he should brush her off?

Are you suggesting it is "typical female behavior"?

Whoever might suggest any of this is "typical female", I would take issue with the "typical" as well as the "female" part.

The reportedly deceptive behavior of OPs wife is something men are equally capable of doing. And regardless of who is doing it, the solution isn't to ignore it OR to "brush her off". That's a false dichotomy...two sides of the same bankrupt coin. The answer it to talk, and understand each others hurts and limits, and then see what happens.

Though I am very much aware of a sh!t test or two I have been subjected to, it seems likely I am unaware of ones I have doled out. It just so happens I am a man and she is a woman, but I wouldn't make generalizations based on those two data points.


----------



## Jung_admirer

jld said:


> Because you can't handle them. Dh can.
> 
> And some of the stuff that you have mentioned from your gf are things dh can't handle. You can.
> 
> We don't accept what we can't handle. They are our deal breakers. All people have different ones.


So there is no need to grow beyond the need for sh|t testing if our partner can handle it ... Do I have that right?


----------



## sparkyjim

I have read more of this thread now and I can see where the OP really failed to "protect" his union with his wife... He put it at risk for the chance opportunity of some strange...

I disagree with his contention that he did not actually participate. He participated in principal. The concept as a whole seemed agreeable to him.

Was she sh1t testing? Yes. Was she being manipulative. Yes, Indeed.

But come on, MEN. We need to remember that at all times we should speak from our character. It matters WHAT we say.

A real man will never fail a sh1t test because he will never be searching for answers. He will say what he believes and stand by it.


----------



## Caribbean Man

sparkyjim said:


> I have read more of this thread now and I can see where the OP really failed to "protect" his union with his wife... He put it at risk for the chance opportunity of some strange...
> 
> I disagree with his contention that he did not actually participate. He participated in principal. The concept as a whole seemed agreeable to him.
> 
> Was she sh1t testing? Yes. Was she being manipulative. Yes, Indeed.
> 
> *But come on, MEN. We need to remember that at all times we should speak from our character. It matters WHAT we say.
> 
> A real man will never fail a sh1t test because he will never be searching for answers. He will say what he believes and stand by it.*


:iagree:
EXACTLY!

In my opinion this was an easy test and he failed.

What lots of people are missing is that what we desire and believe often informs our thought processes and rationalizations.

Not saying that the wife is innocent or right in her actions. But the entire scenario just reminds me of one of my favorite quotes;

_" Men are so simple and so much inclined to obey immediate needs that a deceiver will never lack victims for his deceptions."_
~Niccolo Machiavelli


----------



## SunnyT

But...OP's wife pretty much stated that she was open to sleeping with other men. Doesn't SHE lose any points for that? 

He's a dog for not "protecting the marriage".... and she is just doing what women do????? 

And he should protect the marriage from her nutcaseness??? Yes that's now a word. 

Crazy talk. 

OP... talk to your wife. Decide what YOU want. You don't have to kowtow, but you don't have to let her steamroll you either. If she really wants a divorce, then you have to let her go.

Your choices seem to be.... either fight for it, or let it go. 

Good luck!


----------



## jld

Jung_admirer said:


> So there is no need to grow beyond the need for sh|t testing if our partner can handle it ... Do I have that right?


It would be better not to do them at all. It would be better not to ever overeat. It would be better not to ever procrastinate. It would be better . . .

Some of us are not perfect, Ja. For my dh, my imperfections are not deal breakers. For other men they would be. That is why I am not married to other men.

I have to tell you, when I told dh about this thread, he laughed. He asked why the OP did not see right away this was an obvious, major **** test. 

The OP's character was revealed. Who do you think gets hurt more in an open marriage arrangement, Ja?

If your daughter were the OP's wife, Ja, what would you tell her? That she was being manipulative? 

Or to get the **** away from him?


----------



## JCD

lovelygirl said:


> He didn't just discuss it. *He accepted it. *
> Two different things.


I think there is a vast difference between accepting it because it was pushed on you and accepting it because you were keen on the idea.

As a woman, I would think you'd be sympathetic to the fact that sometimes your other half pushes something you are not exactly keen on, but acquiesce out of affection. Why would it be different just because it's a man?

This was, granted, a very stupid thing to acquiesce on IF she was pushing it. If it was HIM, I have little sympathy.


----------



## sparkyjim

SunnyT said:


> He's a dog for not "protecting the marriage".... and she is just doing what women do?????


Nope.... I totally disagree with what she did. I think she is manipulative and dishonest.

But he has to own his part in this... That is what I am saying.


----------



## treyvion

jld said:


> It would be better not to do them at all. It would be better not to ever overeat. It would be better not to ever procrastinate. It would be better . . .
> 
> Some of us are not perfect, Ja. For my dh, my imperfections are not deal breakers. For other men they would be. That is why I am not married to other men.
> 
> I have to tell you, when I told dh about this thread, he laughed. He asked why the OP did not see right away this was an obvious, major **** test.
> 
> The OP's character was revealed. Who do you think gets hurt more in an open marriage arrangement, Ja?
> 
> If your daughter were the OP's wife, Ja, what would you tell her? That she was being manipulative?
> 
> Or to get the **** away from him?


Open relationship hurts the one who cares the most. It will also hurt the one whose idea it was not at first, but they agreed and went along with it relunctantly, when it's not the way they are.


----------



## Catherine602

I've been thinking about this thread and the surprising and over the top, lop sided animosity shown to this man's wife. Some poster's alluded to this. 

I think it is because most men have few confidants and hope that their wives can be a trusted recipient of their hopes, dreams and kinks. They see OP's situation as a breach of this trust. 

Many men have wives who don't want to hear their husbands secrets. They may be upsetting. I am sure this creates a deep wound for men. 

Many women don't realize the importance of being the keeper of his dreams. Unfortunately, men and women often forget the important parts of a relationship when they get caught up in feelings. 

I don't fault his wife for her insecurity, who is not insecure. I can't fault her for feeling that her husbands willingness to share her is painful to hear. How many women would feel the same. 

The OP should own his sh!t. He said it, that's how he feels. But he also wants to try and stay married. Maybe he can maybe not. 

Saying she should not be upset because he did not do it is lame, in my mind. Pointing out her many faults won't help him now. 

There is a time for everything. At some point, he can help her to see that he could have rethought the agreement too. He could have gotten upset with her too. 

He can also broach the question of trusting each other with inner thoughts, if they stay happily married. But not now.


----------



## John Doe Rae

Catherine602 said:


> I've been thinking about this thread and the surprising and over the top, lop sided animosity shown to this man's wife. Some poster's alluded to this.
> 
> I think it is because most men have few confidants and hope that their wives can be a trusted recipient of their hopes, dreams and kinks. They see this as a breach of that trust.
> 
> Many men don't find that in their wives and it is a deep wound. Many women don't realize the importance of being the keeper of his dreams. They don't realize that he is strong but not insensitive.
> 
> Unfortunately, men and women often forget the important parts of a relationship when we get caught up in feelings. I don't fault his wife for her insecurity, who is not insecure.
> 
> I can't fault her for feeling that her husbands willingness to share her is painful to hear. How many women would feel the same.
> 
> The OP should own his sh!t. He said it, that's how he feels. But he also wants to try and stay married. Maybe he can maybe not.
> 
> Saying she should not be upset because he did not do it is lame, in my mind. Pointing out her many faults won't help him now.
> 
> There is a time for everything. At some point, he can help her to see that he could have rethought the agreement too. He could have gotten upset with her too.
> 
> He can also broach the question of trusting each other with inner thoughts, if they stay happily married. But not now.


I did own up to my sh!t. I was wrong and thoughtless towards her feelings. All I cared about at the time was how many takers I would have. I wanted a confidence boost. There in lies the problem.To her my actions said that ship wasnt enough for for me and that I didnt even love myself enough to be confident. There are many things wrong with this whole situation. I am surprised that she gave me another chance. And I will not squabble it. As I have concluded that she is all that I need and no I need to prove that to her. While her methods may be controversial it is eclipsed by my betrayal. I spoke with her about her methds and have chosen ncluded that should had just cause. I can save this relationship as long as I prove that she truly is everything I could ever want or need.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Catherine602

John I am so happy you are on the road to recovery. Don't be surpised if she get's upset at times. It's natural. Find the tools that you both need to ride it out. 

I think you can have what you want but you may have to forge a new relationship. You said that you need a boost to your confidence. 

You have to find marriage positive ways to get that. Those feelings will not go away. You have to get at the root of the issue and work it. 

Don't sweep under the rug all of the things you both need to do in order to get where you want to be. This is not over by any means. You both have a lot of work to do. 

At some point, you are going to have to make an agreement on trust. Also, how to talk honestly about concerns and worries. You are both on the same team, you should have each others backs. 

Accept that you will both make mistakes in judgement. Everyone does. You both have to make an agreement that the first response will not be to walk away. But to use the skills you develop to reach an accommodation. 

Oh and don't grovel. Be strong, stand up, you didn't kill anyone after all..


----------



## John Doe Rae

Catherine602 said:


> John I am so happy you are on the road to recovery. Don't be surpised if she get's upset at times. It's natural. Find the tools that you both need to ride it out.
> 
> I think you can have what you want but you may have to forge a new relationship. You said that you need a boost to your confidence.
> 
> You have to find marriage positive ways to get that. Those feelings will not go away. You have to get at the root of the issue and work it.
> 
> Don't sweep under the rug all of the things you both need to do in order to get where you want to be. This is not over by any means. You both have a lot of work to do.
> 
> At some point, you are going to have to make an agreement on trust. Also, how to talk honestly about concerns and worries. You are both on the same team, you should have each others backs.
> 
> Accept that you will both make mistakes in judgement. Everyone does. You both have to make an agreement that the first response will not be to walk away. But to use the skills you develop to reach an accommodation.
> 
> Oh and don't grovel. Be strong, stand up, you didn't kill anyone after all..


Thank you for you help. You and jld were actually the most thought provoking. I know I snapped on you a little at the beginning but you did make valid points in that post and your later posts. I know that my wife and I have some work to do but we are both in love with each kther enough that we have overcome everything so far and there is no reason we cant overcome this. I keep your final tips in mind. Thank you again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Windwalker

I read the whole thread.


Who asked first?

Who pushed for it?


Straight answer please.


----------



## John Doe Rae

Windwalker said:


> I read the whole thread.
> 
> 
> Who asked first?
> 
> Who pushed for it?
> 
> 
> Straight answer please.


She asked first. She pushed but not very hard because I didnt resist. But as you should ha read, everything has.been resolved that can be resolved now. Now comes the repair and trust building stage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Catherine602

Thanks for helping me to understand better the need for people, men especially, to share their thoughts without censure. 

If you had not been brave enough to ask for help, these reveling posts would not have been written.


----------



## bandit.45

:scratchhead:


----------



## jld

I am so happy to hear all of this, John. Good work.


----------



## Windwalker

bandit.45 said:


> :scratchhead:


:iagree:


"Be careful what you wish for"


----------



## sandc

Wait... Didn't you both agree to the so called ground rules? So how come you're the only one in the dog house? She agreed too, no?


----------



## Windwalker

Windwalker said:


> I read the whole thread.
> 
> 
> Who asked first?
> 
> Who pushed for it?
> 
> 
> Straight answer please.





John Doe Rae said:


> She asked first. She pushed but not very hard because I didnt resist. But as you should ha read, everything has.been resolved that can be resolved now. Now comes the repair and trust building stage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





sandc said:


> Wait... Didn't you both agree to the so called ground rules? So how come you're the only one in the dog house? She agreed too, no?


Here LIES your answer.


----------



## bandit.45

:scratchhead:

I'm lost. WTF just happened?


----------



## larry.gray

bandit.45 said:


> :scratchhead:
> 
> I'm lost. WTF just happened?


You don't want to know. It's best to move along.


----------



## Windwalker

bandit.45 said:


> :scratchhead:
> 
> I'm lost. WTF just happened?



What you just witnessed was one of the best "Kansas City Shuffles" I have seen in a long time.



:allhail:


----------



## CharlotteMcdougall

Theseus said:


> Where did anyone call his wife terrible names? Or any names, for that matter?


Catherine602 was talking about me. I did not call the OP's wife names.

I spoke about her behavior and how I interpreted it.


----------



## CharlotteMcdougall

sparkyjim said:


> CharlotteMcdougall said:
> 
> 
> 
> However, since the OP's wife chose to be conniving and manipulative, it isn't fair to blame him for being forthright. His wife should not have agreed to the pretend conditions if she did not like them.
> 
> *Mature and rational women simply ask for what they want, rather than setting up random little tests. *If I am feeling insecure, I clearly state that to my husband. He will be very affectionate and tell me lovely things about myself. This works far better than stupid hypothetical situations with ulterior motives.
> 
> 
> 
> I did not read most of this thread....
> 
> But I was lucky to come across this little gem...
> 
> Very well said, Charlotte...
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you.
Click to expand...


----------



## Windwalker

CharlotteMcdougall said:


> sparkyjim said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No. Thank you!
> 
> You spoke the truth, as it should be spoken.
Click to expand...


----------



## Mr The Other

So, skipping over the rights and wrongs, the issues are;
- She wants to sleep with other guys. However, she is being shady and dishonest about it.
- He wants to sleep with other girls. However, he is being shady and dishonest about it.
- They feel the other is unreasonable.


----------



## MRABoysHaveSmallPeanut

People use Xbox Live for dating? I still remember the times when game consoles were considered to be "childrens' toys" and people would laugh at you if you said you played video games.


----------



## lovelygirl

SunnyT said:


> But...OP's wife pretty much stated that she was open to sleeping with other men. Doesn't SHE lose any points for that?


She was provoking him. It didn't mean she was really open to that.


----------



## lovelygirl

JCD said:


> I think there is a vast difference between accepting it because it was pushed on you and accepting it because you were keen on the idea.
> 
> As a woman, I would think you'd be sympathetic to the fact that sometimes your other half pushes something you are not exactly keen on, but acquiesce out of affection. Why would it be different just because it's a man?
> 
> This was, granted, a very stupid thing to acquiesce on IF she was pushing it. If it was HIM, I have little sympathy.


If your wife pushed you towards the same idea, would you submit? Would you act like OP? 
So, your character changes according to the intensity that your wife pushes you towards some ideas? 

It shows lack of firmness and character, sorry.


----------



## lovelygirl

jld said:


> It would be better not to do them at all. It would be better not to ever overeat. It would be better not to ever procrastinate. It would be better . . .


Sh*t tests are needed to understand where your SO stands and how far he can go, especially when the relationship is new.

Although I agree, it shouldn't go over the top.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Windwalker said:


> What you just witnessed was one of the best "Kansas City Shuffles" I have seen in a long time.
> 
> 
> 
> :


Lol!

" _Lucky Number Slevin ? "
_
Ha ha! just made me laugh!


----------



## LongWalk

Shxt test are the selfish gene's way of gathering intelligence. Women intuitively set up these things to make decisions about their commitment to the relationship. Pregnancy and childbirth are a big risk.

The OP failed the test. Was the test fair? Not really.

How much of an actress was his wife in the initial conversation? 

How can the OP rescue his marriage? 

One essential element now is to be dignified. Pleading and arguing will not improve her evaluation of him.

John Doe Rae Mi use your wit to disarm her hostility if you can.


----------



## Mr The Other

We really do not know if it was a **** test or if she just woke up in the morning and could no longer relate to the opinion she previously held. If it was a **** test, she contentedly waited a very long time.

I suspect she wants to sleep with other men, she also wants her husband to be the type of man who would not allow it. Either way, there was going to be upset.


----------



## BradWesley

Windwalker said:


> What you just witnessed was one of the best "Kansas City Shuffles" I have seen in a long time.
> 
> 
> 
> :allhail:


Yep, that along with the old Potomac Two-Step.


----------



## JCD

Catherine602 said:


> I've been thinking about this thread and the surprising and over the top, lop sided animosity shown to this man's wife. Some poster's alluded to this.
> 
> I think it is because most men have few confidants and hope that their wives can be a trusted recipient of their hopes, dreams and kinks. They see OP's situation as a breach of this trust.
> 
> Many men have wives who don't want to hear their husbands secrets. They may be upsetting. I am sure this creates a deep wound for men.
> 
> Many women don't realize the importance of being the keeper of his dreams. Unfortunately, men and women often forget the important parts of a relationship when they get caught up in feelings.
> 
> I don't fault his wife for her insecurity, who is not insecure. I can't fault her for feeling that her husbands willingness to share her is painful to hear. How many women would feel the same.
> 
> The OP should own his sh!t. He said it, that's how he feels. But he also wants to try and stay married. Maybe he can maybe not.
> 
> Saying she should not be upset because he did not do it is lame, in my mind. Pointing out her many faults won't help him now.
> 
> There is a time for everything. At some point, he can help her to see that he could have rethought the agreement too. He could have gotten upset with her too.
> 
> He can also broach the question of trusting each other with inner thoughts, if they stay happily married. But not now.


I thought the first part of this was EXTREMELY insightful! If, as women constantly go on about, the SO is their 'soul mate', men correctly or incorrectly feel that they should be able to share ALL of themselves with a 'soul mate'. Women demand honesty.

Then men share that honesty.

Uh oh.

Because it seems, as is apparent from a number of threads, SOME women don't WANT the truth about their men. They want to cling to their illusions. "OMG, my husband has sexualized thoughts about other women! He is a pseudo cheater/rapist/pedophile because that girl doesn't look very old".

Then they take their shattered illusions out on the men.

So much for soul mates and honesty.

I have a dictum I use. *Don't ask any questions you don't want an honest answer to.*

Still...this was a can of worms which really should NEVER have been opened. And I think her hurt came as much from the 'I am not enough for him' as it was of 'he wants to pass me along like a joint at a Grateful Dead concert'.


----------



## JCD

lovelygirl said:


> She was provoking him. It didn't mean she was really open to that.


She set a trap. 

He stepped in it. 

Then she yelled at him about stepping into the trap she set and is working on making him grovel over it.

John Rae...honesty is not your friend with this woman. You want to be honest to someone, get a dog and a private spot (she might eavesdrop).

There is a subset of women who work out some outrage just so they can get things they want or always stand on the moral high ground in the relationship.

This woman sounds suspiciously like that. Yeah, it was an OBVIOUS trap and you, smiling like Gilligan, stepped in it. She still set the trap.

Be careful and keep your inner thoughts to yourself from now on.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

JCD said:


> Be careful and keep your inner thoughts to yourself from now on.


This is what sh*t tests really accomplish.Step into enough traps and you're bound to start keeping your real thoughts to yourself.


----------



## JCD

lovelygirl said:


> If your wife pushed you towards the same idea, would you submit? Would you act like OP?
> So, your character changes according to the intensity that your wife pushes you towards some ideas?
> 
> It shows lack of firmness and character, sorry.


I would not. I am not new.

I have seen many women submit to the 'swinging' thing because of partner pressure.

Did their character change? In some of these cases, the person was desperate to cling to a probably already lost relationship.

Sorry to say, sometimes in the grown up world, people have to make compromises and some of them deal with deeply held beliefs. As a spouse, I have had to grit my teeth over something my SO has done...and no doubt she has had to do the same with me. A friend you think is toxic. A job you despise. A 'boy's night out' that you question.

This is a quantum leap beyond that, but the principle is the same. 

And yeah, SHE pushed it. Don't let her off the hook so easily. In fact, I wonder what sort of self policing the women posters suggest for the wife.

What would you women tell the wife about this set up if she was here?


----------



## JCD

ScarletBegonias said:


> This is what sh*t tests really accomplish.Step into enough traps and you're bound to start keeping your real thoughts to yourself.


I've said it before: If you raise the price of honesty too high, all you are going to get are lies.


----------



## alphaomega

This outcome solved nothing....

She set him up, and he has to grovel for forgiveness.

This will happen again.

Isn't there a thread somewhere entitled.."I want you to do that, but I hate that you did it!" 

In the end...we learned that ladies are hard wired for shat testing. And vehemently defend its purpose. If you fail one, even one like the "kobiashi maroo", the man is screwed. 

And we can expect John do Rae back here soon, on his next shat test failure.


----------



## DoF

JCD said:


> I've said it before: If you raise the price of honesty too high, all you are going to get are lies.


I like to say "nothing is good when taken to the extreme, EVER"


----------



## ScarletBegonias

alphaomega said:


> In the end...we learned that ladies are hard wired for shat testing. And vehemently defend its purpose.


 uh.no.


----------



## alphaomega

ScarletBegonias said:


> uh.no.


Lol. Let's see how much shat my comment brings on....


----------



## sinnister

Playing games is dumb. And I'm not talking about Xbox. I'm speaking about trapping you into an answer.

That is immature and childish.

Good luck with you being on probation in your marriage based on a hypothetical scenario where she too agreed to be in an open relationship. (My head is spinning).


----------



## ScarletBegonias

alphaomega said:


> Lol. Let's see how much shat my comment brings on....


I used to sh*t test before I knew there was a term for it and before I realized what I was doing.It ruined any emotional trust my ExH had with me and started a vicious cycle of events that couldn't be fixed.


----------



## lovelygirl

JCD said:


> I would not. I am not new.


If you wouldn't then why are you justifying OP for allowing himself to be pushed toward such deal? 

No matter how hard she pushed, this is on him, not on her.


----------



## JCD

lovelygirl said:


> If you wouldn't then why are you justifying OP for allowing himself to be pushed toward such deal?
> 
> No matter how hard she pushed, this is on him, not on her.


Wait just a gul darned minute!

SHE AGREED TOO!

What, if anything, do you have to say to her?

You seem to be taking a very uneven attitude toward the two people.

Fine, he has weak character. He needs to work on it.

What is she? Please answer.


----------



## lovelygirl

JCD said:


> Wait just a gul darned minute!
> 
> SHE AGREED TOO!


Agreeing was part of the SHOW! 
Remember? 
She didn't really mean it.




> What, if anything, do you have to say to her?
> What is she? Please answer.


She was smart enough to play him.


----------



## JCD

lovelygirl said:


> Agreeing was part of the SHOW!
> Remember?
> She didn't really mean it.
> 
> 
> 
> She was smart enough to play him.


Huh. So being a lying manipulative game player is a SMART thing for her to do...but him agreeing is beyond the pale?

Got it.
.
.
.
.
REALLY? This is your answer? No recriminations for her?


----------



## DoF

sinnister said:


> Playing games is dumb. And I'm not talking about Xbox. I'm speaking about trapping you into an answer.
> 
> That is immature and childish.
> 
> Good luck with you being on probation in your marriage based on a hypothetical scenario where she too agreed to be in an open relationship. (My head is spinning).


Agreed, what is this middle school?

Almost as if she WANTS the relationship to end (coming up with random BS to do it).

Not good


----------



## Married but Happy

lovelygirl said:


> She was smart enough to play him.


Or perhaps stupid enough to do so. She created the conditions that could end their relationship, when by saying nothing/not testing him this may never have been an issue for them. It's very likely she sabotaged herself.

Just because someone may want to do something, does not mean they ever will, unless further _mutual _agreement leads to it.


----------



## lovelygirl

JCD said:


> Huh. So being a lying manipulative game player is a SMART thing for her to do...but him agreeing is beyond the pale?
> 
> Got it.
> .
> .
> .
> .
> REALLY? This is your answer? No recriminations for her?


I admit it was a bit ugly.
The ugly part was that she let it last for a whole week instead of telling him right away that it was a trap/test.
That's where she acted wrong. Letting your SO be part of your trap for that long is not fair.


----------



## sinnister

lovelygirl said:


> Agreeing was part of the SHOW!
> Remember?
> She didn't really mean it.
> 
> 
> 
> She was smart enough to play him.


What on earth?

The whole scenario was a farce. A hypothectical scenario drawn up for one reason, to "trap" her husband into an answer she dissaproved of.

That's some immature BS right there. Any decision he made as a result of that entrapment can't be held against him. That all on her IMO.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

lovelygirl said:


> I admit it was a bit ugly.
> The ugly part was that she let it last for a whole week instead of telling him right away that it was a trap/test.
> That's where she acted wrong. Letting your SO be part of your trap for that long is not fair.


The ugly part was using a trap/test in the first place.That's where she went wrong.Trying to trap/test your partner is wrong.


----------



## Mr The Other

lovelygirl said:


> Agreeing was part of the SHOW!
> Remember?
> She didn't really mean it.
> 
> 
> 
> She was smart enough to play him.


I find it more likely that she changed her mind, but we cannot be sure.


----------



## JCD

lovelygirl said:


> I admit it was a bit ugly.
> The ugly part was that she let it last for a whole week instead of telling him right away that it was a trap/test.
> That's where she acted wrong. Letting your SO be part of your trap for that long is not fair.


I have a slightly different take on this.

Imagine their marriage as an expensive cloisonné vase on a greek pedestal. Maybe the wife sees the pedestal as shaky. Maybe she sees it as rock solid.

So they see this television program for God's sakes and this woman, for sh!ts and giggles, decides to give the pedestal a nice kick just to see if laughing boy's reflexes are quick enough to grab it before it hits the ground.

And he totally fumbled it. As in, 'we aren't going to the Rose Bowl anymore' fumble.

And now she wants to blame HIM for the scuff marks and chips on the vase.

Huh!

What's that on your toe, Mrs. Rae? A big bruise? How did it get there?

Exactly. Both should own their sh!t...including the one who kicked the pedestal.

John Doe Rae if she decides to divorce, I am not sure I would fight it.


----------



## samyeagar

jld said:


> Because you can't handle them. Dh can.
> 
> And some of the stuff that you have mentioned from your gf are things dh can't handle. You can.
> 
> We don't accept what we can't handle. They are our deal breakers. All people have different ones.


I can handle them, and I did by not putting up with them. Why should I 'handle' or is another word 'tolerate' bad behavior?


----------



## Catherine602

JCD said:


> I thought the first part of this was EXTREMELY insightful! If, as women constantly go on about, the SO is their 'soul mate', men correctly or incorrectly feel that they should be able to share ALL of themselves with a 'soul mate'. Women demand honesty.
> 
> Then men share that honesty.
> 
> Uh oh.
> 
> Because it seems, as is apparent from a number of threads, SOME women don't WANT the truth about their men. They want to cling to their illusions. "OMG, my husband has sexualized thoughts about other women! He is a pseudo cheater/rapist/pedophile because that girl doesn't look very old".
> 
> Then they take their shattered illusions out on the men.
> 
> So much for soul mates and honesty.
> 
> I have a dictum I use. *Don't ask any questions you don't want an honest answer to.*
> 
> Still...this was a can of worms which really should NEVER have been opened. And I think her hurt came as much from the 'I am not enough for him' as it was of 'he wants to pass me along like a joint at a Grateful Dead concert'.


It would be nice to see some insight expressed towards women. It was common on this site in the past. 

Men with an admirable quality of mastery, confident and mental independence, were able to guide the discussion past free floating rage. Sadly, they don't post anymore. 

It is disappointing to read so many threads that descend into pure vitriolic diatribes targeting women. The same aimless gang descends on a thread with one motive. 

To get the man to devalue what he holds precious, the woman he loves. There needs to be a "dump the b!tch" emoticon. 

I liked TAM, I've been helped enormously. It's sad to watch it change from the uniquely supportive site that it was.


----------



## jld

lovelygirl said:


> Sh*t tests are needed to understand where your SO stands and how far he can go, especially when the relationship is new.
> 
> Although I agree, it shouldn't go over the top.


Well, they must be accomplishing something, or they would not be done . . .


----------



## jld

samyeagar said:


> I can handle them, and I did by not putting up with them. Why should I 'handle' or is another word 'tolerate' bad behavior?


How about this: You find them inconvenient enough that you are not going to stay in a relationship with a woman who does them. Is that accurate?

Different men define bad behavior differently, and have different levels of tolerance for it.


----------



## jld

Catherine602 said:


> It would be nice to see some insight expressed towards women. It was common on this site in the past.
> 
> Men with an admirable quality of mastery, confident and mental independence, were able to guide the discussion past free floating rage. Sadly, they don't post anymore.
> 
> It is disappointing to read so many threads that descend into pure vitriolic diatribes targeting women. The same aimless gang descends on a thread with one motive.
> 
> To get the man to devalue what he holds precious, the woman he loves. There needs to be a "dump the b!tch" emoticon.
> 
> I liked TAM, I've been helped enormously. It's sad to watch it change from the uniquely supportive site that it was.


I have heard this last comment from a few posters. How was it different in the past?

Men who are secure in themselves can handle women. They don't take her emotions personally, and they love her in spite of herself. I think that is what you meant in the second paragraph, no?


----------



## samyeagar

jld said:


> How about this: You find them inconvenient enough that you are not going to stay in a relationship with a woman who does them. Is that accurate?
> 
> Different men define bad behavior differently, and have different levels of tolerance for it.


There is nothing inconvenient about them. They are disrespectful. Why would anyone feel it is ok to intentionally set someone else up for failure without telling them you are doing that and then getting mad at them for failing a test you set them up to fail? That is flat out deceitful, and I expect honesty from my partner.


----------



## ReformedHubby

jld said:


> I have heard this last comment from a few posters. How was it different in the past?
> 
> Men who are secure in themselves can handle women. They don't take her emotions personally, and they love her in spite of herself. I think that is what you meant in the second paragraph, no?


I actually get what Catherine is saying. It did used to be a different place. People used to be able to disagree and just move on. Now it just goes back and forth. Page after page of people kicking a dead horse on many threads. However, in my opinion the vitriol is on both sides. I actually stopped posting for a while but decided to come back and just avoid those threads.


----------



## sinnister

Catherine602 said:


> It would be nice to see some insight expressed towards women. It was common on this site in the past.
> 
> Men with an admirable quality of mastery, confident and mental independence, were able to guide the discussion past free floating rage. Sadly, they don't post anymore.
> 
> It is disappointing to read so many threads that descend into pure vitriolic diatribes targeting women. The same aimless gang descends on a thread with one motive.
> 
> To get the man to devalue what he holds precious, the woman he loves. There needs to be a "dump the b!tch" emoticon.
> 
> I liked TAM, I've been helped enormously. It's sad to watch it change from the uniquely supportive site that it was.



Any vitriol hurled the OP wives way is well deserved. There is absolutely no reason to think up a scenario like this for your spouse to jump throught these hoops. And then have the nerve to threaten divorce on top of it? It was her idea!

Am I taking crazy pills? How on earth can she be defended here?


----------



## sammy3

Did they ever say how old they were? How many years they were married? They sounded so very young to me... Like is a first she pulled a stunt like this in this marriage? 

This is stuff dating high schooler do, not people who love each other and are married. 

Maybe I missed part of the story, as I was so distracted by the immaturely of theses 2 people.

-sammy


----------



## ReformedHubby

sinnister said:


> Any vitriol hurled the OP wives way is well deserved. There is absolutely no reason to think up a scenario like this for your spouse to jump throught these hoops. And then have the nerve to threaten divorce on top of it? It was her idea!
> 
> Am I taking crazy pills? How on earth can she be defended here?


You're not crazy. IMO its fine to ask your spouse a question and be upset if you don't like the answer. Its a whole different matter if you're pretending to think one way and mislead them just to watch them dig themselves a bigger hole. I guess I'm the only one that is convinced that she really was into it but decided against it later?

BTW, totally unrelated but I can't believe we cut DJ.


----------



## jld

samyeagar said:


> There is nothing inconvenient about them. They are disrespectful. Why would anyone feel it is ok to intentionally set someone else up for failure without telling them you are doing that and then getting mad at them for failing a test you set them up to fail? That is flat out deceitful, and I expect honesty from my partner.


Some men don't take them personally, Sam. 

Some men, after they happen, ask themselves what they could have done differently. In the case of the OP, he is probably examining his values.

A **** test is often asking the question: Do you love me? Do you really love me, just as I am?

It is actually an opportunity for a man to not only affirm his woman, but to deepen her trust in him. 

That's how some men take them, anyway.


----------



## ReformedHubby

sammy3 said:


> Did they ever say how old they were? How many years they were married? They sounded so very young to me... Like is a first she pulled a stunt like this in this marriage?
> 
> This is stuff dating high schooler do, not people who love each other and are married.
> 
> Maybe I missed part of the story, as I was so distracted by the immaturely of theses 2 people.
> 
> -sammy


I would think they are young if their plan was to meet other people via Xbox Live.


----------



## samyeagar

jld said:


> Some men don't take them personally, Sam.
> 
> Some men, after they happen, ask themselves what they could have done differently. In the case of the OP, he is probably examining his values.
> 
> *A **** test is often asking the question: Do you love me? Do you really love me, just as I am?*
> 
> It is actually an opportunity for a man to not only affirm his woman, but to deepen her trust in him.
> 
> That's how some men take them, anyway.


Not true. A sh1t test is asking the question knowing full well you are looking for a specific answer, and if you don't get the answer you want, getting pissed at your partner for not giving the answer they were "supposed" to give, for giving the wrong answer.

The thing that most people who give sh1t test seem to over look when their partner starts playing the game...if they become accustomed to trying to figure out the "right" answer, then you aren't necessarily getting the truth out of them.


----------



## CharlotteMcdougall

Catherine602 said:


> It would be nice to see some insight expressed towards women. It was common on this site in the past.
> 
> Men with an admirable quality of mastery, confident and mental independence, were able to guide the discussion past free floating rage. Sadly, they don't post anymore.
> 
> It is disappointing to read so many threads that descend into pure vitriolic diatribes targeting women. The same aimless gang descends on a thread with one motive.
> 
> To get the man to devalue what he holds precious, the woman he loves. There needs to be a "dump the b!tch" emoticon.
> 
> I liked TAM, I've been helped enormously. It's sad to watch it change from the uniquely supportive site that it was.


Don't you think that your comments about men who allow open marriages were also vitriolic? :scratchhead: I am not trying to pick on you. I am just trying to get you to examine your biases and the way you express them. Some of your comments about men who are in open marriages were very nasty. 

If you feel that too many men target women with hateful words, doing the exact same thing is certainly not going to solve the problem. I am female and I believe that the OP deserves better than what he is experiencing. If his wife wants to play games and pull the divorce card for something so stupid, why does he need that in his life? 

My husband loves to send me romantic texts. I enjoy them immensely. However, the last two texts were not answered or responded to in a business like manner. Instead of playing games and being manipulative, my husband simply told me that he didn't like the way I didn't respond or the way I answered one of his texts. I apologized and sent him a very sweet text this morning. He loved it. Problem solved with _mature honesty. _:smthumbup:


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Here is my thought.... how do we know if she didn't have this thought...

This is like Eve bringing the apple... her sin

to Adam who bit it ... his sin

now follow my thought here... how do we know given the propensity for some people to justify their own behavior by villainizing someone else first... "I want to sin... wonder if he has had the same thought... sh*t test.... gasp YOU DID have the same thought... now I dont know if I want to be with you, thus getting her own desire to sin "off the hook" and placing HIS desire ON that hook that her's was just on. 

THIS was my gut reaction to her sh*t test. I cannot know if I am right... but it was a visceral reaction. 

Thus... possible betrayal to the marriage on both sides that will be tricky to recover. IF its the case. 

It is very possible her radar was going off on his behavior thus her "need" to test the relationship, but VERY poor choice on her part regardless. 

I love the pedestal analogy given earlier...


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Yet, with that said, he can only deal with his own failure, she will have to own hers. If she had ulterior motives other than testing his love for her, it will eventually surface.


----------



## NobodySpecial

alphaomega said:


> This outcome solved nothing....
> 
> She set him up, and he has to grovel for forgiveness.


Why is grovelling a good thing? :scratchhead: That is just messed up. He needs to sit her down and let her know exactly how idiotic that little bit of dishonesty was.

I watched Rob Roy last night. "Keep that tongue for your boys, Woman. I did not speak my mind to get flayed for it." 

Stand up, OP. Don't be a puss.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

CharlotteMcdougall said:


> My husband loves to send me romantic texts. I enjoy them immensely. However, the last two texts were not answered or responded to in a business like manner. Instead of playing games and being manipulative, my husband simply told me that he didn't like the way I didn't respond or the way I answered one of his texts. I apologized and sent him a very sweet text this morning. He loved it. Problem solved with _mature honesty. _:smthumbup:


Sounds like my husband and me


----------



## sinnister

ReformedHubby said:


> You're not crazy. IMO its fine to ask your spouse a question and be upset if you don't like the answer. Its a whole different matter if you're pretending to think one way and mislead them just to watch them dig themselves a bigger hole. I guess I'm the only one that is convinced that she really was into it but decided against it later?
> 
> BTW, totally unrelated but I can't believe we cut DJ.


Let him get away without compensation then let him go to an NFC east competitor. Dumb on so many levels.

Agreed on everything. You can ask any question you want but setting the guy up is just cruel. If she didnt want an open relationship they should have had an honest discussion about it. Not pretend to be on board to see how deep the rabbit hole was.


----------



## sandc

How about she just ask the question she really wanted to ask, honestly? "Honey, do you value me?" She assumed he would lie so she put him through a sh!t test.

She needs counselling and now so does he.


----------



## Jung_admirer

jld said:


> It would be better not to do them at all. It would be better not to ever overeat. It would be better not to ever procrastinate. It would be better . . . Non Sequitur
> 
> Some of us are not perfect, Ja. For my dh, my imperfections are not deal breakers. For other men they would be. That is why I am not married to other men.
> 
> I have to tell you, when I told dh about this thread, he laughed. He asked why the OP did not see right away this was an obvious, major **** test.
> 
> The OP's character was revealed. Who do you think gets hurt more in an open marriage arrangement, Ja? Let's see ... if two people jump off a building, who gets hurt more? Perhaps they are equally dead in an open marraige.
> 
> If your daughter were the OP's wife, Ja, what would you tell her? That she was being manipulative? I would tell her that sh|t tests are simultaneously disingenuous and dishonest.
> 
> Or to get the **** away from him? First, I wouldn't tell an adult daughter what to do. I'd answer her questions honestly and allow her the space to take responsibility for herself. If she needed to retreat, I would support her.


I think we agree that sh|t tests are a negative behavior. Negative in that they are based in fear as opposed to love. In truth, they are a projection of anxiety on to your partner. Certainly most partners can tolerate this projection. Here is my point: Just because your partner tolerates this projection does not mean you should not take ownership of the underlying anxiety. Furthermore, a partner that tolerates anxious projection is pandering. Eventually, this projection will erode and if the underlying anxiety is not addressed it will simply manifest itself elsewhere, commonly as depression. 



Jung_admirer said:


> So there is no need to grow beyond the need for sh|t testing if our partner can handle it?


This is a yes/no question. I've answered your questions above, I will trust you to answer mine.


----------



## larry.gray

ScarletBegonias said:


> I used to sh*t test before I knew there was a term for it and before I realized what I was doing.It ruined any emotional trust my ExH had with me and started a vicious cycle of events that couldn't be fixed.


WOW. That's some serious self introspective analysis that few people are capable of. Good for you!


----------



## CharlotteMcdougall

larry.gray said:


> WOW. That's some serious self introspective analysis that few people are capable of. Good for you!


Isn't SB great? :smthumbup:


----------



## ScarletBegonias

lol thanks not great yet,but I will be someday


----------



## larry.gray

jld said:


> Men who are secure in themselves can handle women. They don't take her emotions personally, and they love her in spite of herself. I think that is what you meant in the second paragraph, no?


Is the 'secure man' the one that can continue to play the games?

Or is the 'secure man' the one that can look a woman squarely in the eye and tell her that she's playing immature games and that she needs to knock it off?


----------



## CharlotteMcdougall

ScarletBegonias said:


> lol thanks not great yet,but I will be someday


I say that you're great and so you are. End of story.


----------



## CharlotteMcdougall

larry.gray said:


> Is the 'secure man' the one that can continue to play the games?
> 
> Or is the 'secure man' the one that can look a woman squarely in the eye and tell her that she's playing immature games and that she needs to knock it off?


I would say that a secure man is the latter.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

CharlotteMcdougall said:


> I say that you're great and so you are. End of story.


 

thank you!


----------



## Theseus

John Doe Rae said:


> I am surprised that she gave me another chance. And I will not squabble it. As I have concluded that she is all that I need and no I need to prove that to her. While her methods may be controversial it is eclipsed by my betrayal. I spoke with her about her methds and have chosen ncluded that should had just cause. I can save this relationship as long as I prove that she truly is everything I could ever want or need.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Does anyone else get the feeling that John Doe Ray was writing this with his wife looking on over his shoulder?

In some ways, I admire the OP's wife as an evil genius. I wish I could get my partner to grovel to me so easily...


----------



## Blossom Leigh

larry.gray said:


> Is the 'secure man' the one that can continue to play the games?
> 
> Or is the 'secure man' the one that can look a woman squarely in the eye and tell her that she's playing immature games and that she needs to knock it off?



When my man stands up to me in truth about my behavior it is a serious turn on.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Theseus said:


> Does anyone else get the feeling that John Doe Ray was writing this with his wife looking on over his shoulder?
> 
> In some ways, I admire the OP's wife as an evil genius. I wish I could get my partner to grovel to me so easily...



Yes, felt very canned to me. Hope I'm wrong...


----------



## PieceOfSky

ScarletBegonias said:


> I used to sh*t test before I knew there was a term for it and before I realized what I was doing.It ruined any emotional trust my ExH had with me and started a vicious cycle of events that couldn't be fixed.


Kudos to you for gaining the awareness, having the will, and finding the courage and energy to change it.

Your husband surely cherishes that about you.


----------



## PieceOfSky

JCD said:


> I thought the first part of this was EXTREMELY insightful! If, as women constantly go on about, the SO is their 'soul mate', men correctly or incorrectly feel that they should be able to share ALL of themselves with a 'soul mate'. Women demand honesty.
> 
> Then men share that honesty.
> 
> Uh oh.
> 
> Because it seems, as is apparent from a number of threads, SOME women don't WANT the truth about their men. They want to cling to their illusions. "OMG, my husband has sexualized thoughts about other women! He is a pseudo cheater/rapist/pedophile because that girl doesn't look very old".
> 
> Then they take their shattered illusions out on the men.
> 
> So much for soul mates and honesty.
> 
> I have a dictum I use. *Don't ask any questions you don't want an honest answer to.*
> 
> Still...this was a can of worms which really should NEVER have been opened. And I think her hurt came as much from the 'I am not enough for him' as it was of 'he wants to pass me along like a joint at a Grateful Dead concert'.





Catherine602 said:


> It would be nice to see some insight expressed towards women. It was common on this site in the past.
> 
> Men with an admirable quality of mastery, confident and mental independence, were able to guide the discussion past free floating rage. Sadly, they don't post anymore.
> 
> It is disappointing to read so many threads that descend into pure vitriolic diatribes targeting women. The same aimless gang descends on a thread with one motive.
> 
> To get the man to devalue what he holds precious, the woman he loves. There needs to be a "dump the b!tch" emoticon.
> 
> I liked TAM, I've been helped enormously. It's sad to watch it change from the uniquely supportive site that it was.



Catherine, 

This is troubling to me for two reasons. First, it is clear this thread has troubled you, yet my mind is not making the same troubling connections you are. Second, your words are weighing on me in the exact uncomfortable way the words you have heard are weighing on you.

In case you don't know, you are someone I respect. I have seen you conscientiously offer thoughtful advice to several here, and I very often agree with it. I know people matter to you, as does truth and goodness. I will always remember you as the person who stepped up in my first thread and gave me permission to not get derailed by someone else's claim that I was exhibiting some sort of gender bias in my words. That was actually quite helpful to me, and made a difference.

So I have read this thread. And when I first heard your complaints about those who disagreed with you were the same ones calling OP's wife names, I went back and read it again. I saw at most one name, and I saw many many males and females offering their honest opinions.

You never answered my questions about who was making assumptions about "typical female behavior". If you think I am, then please tell me directly. Quite honestly, I think you may be assuming people who think her behavior was destructive are doing so because they are male or because they subscribe that this sort of behavior is "typical female". I say "I think you maybe be assuming", because I do not know, but it is the only puzzle piece I have at the moment that fits. With respect, if that is the assumption you are making, then that is dangerous in general, and I am certain it is incorrect in my case.

As for your words weighing in the exact uncomfortable ways as the way words are weighing on you, I'd like to explain. To me, your words above felt like an attempt to devalue the thoughts and opinions expressed by men on this thread, which devalues us as persons. I don't know if that was your intent, or if you intended a smaller group of targets. But, in my thought-born opinion, it seems your target was indeed too wide, and you are not seeing the experience these people are sincerely trying to offer.


----------



## JCD

Catherine602 said:


> It would be nice to see some insight expressed towards women. It was common on this site in the past.
> 
> Men with an admirable quality of mastery, confident and mental independence, were able to guide the discussion past free floating rage. Sadly, they don't post anymore.
> 
> It is disappointing to read so many threads that descend into pure vitriolic diatribes targeting women. The same aimless gang descends on a thread with one motive.
> 
> To get the man to devalue what he holds precious, the woman he loves. There needs to be a "dump the b!tch" emoticon.
> 
> I liked TAM, I've been helped enormously. It's sad to watch it change from the uniquely supportive site that it was.



Catherine, I am unsure if you are complimenting me or critiquing me with this post. Sadly, I suspect it is the later.

I can assure you that nothing I wrote was free floating rage. Instead, it was very precise and directed rage 

It's primary impetus was karmagirl's thread on women wearing ****ty clothes. Almost to a man, the men said they naturally looked at women dressed that way or they had to fight to NOT do it. And half the women essentially screamed at them and called them selfish a-holes for...well...being men. If 100% of the men did it or were tempted to do it...guess what? This is a useful male insight. Men also said this was really no big deal for them. "Hey boobs" and they would go on with their day with a little boob brightness in their day.

It was honest. It was an insight. It was male.

It was not welcome.

So who had the problem with this? The women could have read it and determined it was not a big deal or an obsession with a man. Instead, the excoriated the men over it.

Now, to the primary point. To a man (and including Theseus, who generally disagrees with everyone) the men here say that they feel this woman is a liar, manipulative and a trap setter.

Some women are defending this. They feel she is FULLY justified in 'testing' her man.

The men disagree. It is honest. It is male. It is an insight.

But let us assume that not a single one of the male posters have mastery, confidence or morals...which is essentially what you are implying by saying that a masterful confident moral man would somehow 'get' what the wife was doing.

Let us further make a stretch and assume for a moment _*I*_ have all three qualities.

The OPs wife is NOT helped by this.

Because if my wife asked strong, confident moral me if I wanted an open marriage, I would wonder who this stranger next to me was that a) she wanted to bang other men and b) she had SO pitiful a read on me as a person that she actually had the testicles to ASK me that.

She has STILL damaged our marriage because now I think she is loose, easy, a bad judge of character OR easily manipulated by a television program.

Let us further assume I am a masterful, confident, moral *intelligent* man (I know...we are really stretching credibility here) and I _detected_ her **** test.

Now I know that my wife is a lying manipulative person who wants to set me up. I will further determine she is rather immature and has p!ss poor communication skills.

So there is no 'win' for the wife here from a man's perspective, PARTICULARLY if I have these qualities you think will solve the issue.

_*I*_ think this is a useful insight for women, but you may disagree.

In that case, just tell me what you want to hear and I'll tell it to you


----------



## Windwalker

*"There needs to be a "dump the b!tch" emoticon"*

Yes, but there also needs to be a "throw the douche to the curb" emoticon as well.


I think JCD was being way to nice.


If my wife asked me if I wanted an open relationship? My reply would be yes, right after you sign the divorce papers.


So, to all the women that think this little stunt is ok, I pose a question.

What if the OP gave any of the following 3 responses?


Option 1

Wife: Do you want an open relationship?
OP: Sure do, right after you grab your crap and get out. And don't let the door hit you in the A$$!


Option 2

Wife: Do you want an open relationship?
OP: Do you want an open relationship? Why do you ask this? Is this a sh!t test or do you really want to F*ck other men?
Wife: No it was just a test.
OP: I kinda figured as much. You just earned your first strike. I would use the next 2 wisely if I were you.


Option 3 If he really wanted to consider it.

Wife: Do you want an open relationship?
OP: Well, I never really thought about it, but if it's something you want we can get a contract and both sign it. Then I will go get it notarized.

1 week later

Wife:I dont want an open relationship. It was all just a test that you epically failed. I want a divorce.
OP: You agreed and signed a contract and now want to use it against me, which is what I thought in the first place. I couldn't agreed with you more. I don't want to be married to a manipulative and deceitful person like you anyways. I see your divorce and raise you and immediate separation. Get the F*ck out.


I'm pretty damn sure he would still get crucified, but hey, it is what it is.
I see a sh!t test as an assault on the marriage, and this one was done with malice and intent to induce harm.
Personally I call the honesty and integrity of the OP's wife in to question.


To quote my favorite movie. "And you, Miss, are no lady."


----------



## jld

Jung_admirer said:


> I think we agree that sh|t tests are a negative behavior. Negative in that they are based in fear as opposed to love. In truth, they are a projection of anxiety on to your partner. Certainly most partners can tolerate this projection. Here is my point: Just because your partner tolerates this projection does not mean you should not take ownership of the underlying anxiety. Furthermore, a partner that tolerates anxious projection is pandering. Eventually, this projection will erode and if the underlying anxiety is not addressed it will simply manifest itself elsewhere, commonly as depression.
> 
> 
> This is a yes/no question. I've answered your questions above, I will trust you to answer mine.


Okay, something I have said has really touched a nerve with you and Sam and Larry. But I am not really sure what it is, other than you don't like **** tests and you don't like how I define security in a man.

I don't do them very often, but I know I do them. I didn't know they had a name before about six months ago.

I don't think secure men are threatened by them. I think secure men know who they are, what they believe in, and what they will tolerate.

I think the longer an insecure woman is with a secure man, the more secure she will become, and the fewer tests she will do. But they may never end entirely. 

I feel like you're giving me one right now. There is some specific answer you are waiting for, and I really don't know what it is.


----------



## COGypsy

jld said:


> Okay, something I have said has really touched a nerve with you and Sam and Larry. But I am not really sure what it is, other than you don't like **** tests and you don't like how I define security in a man.
> 
> I don't do them very often, but I know I do them. I didn't know they had a name before about six months ago.
> 
> I don't think secure men are threatened by them. I think secure men know who they are, what they believe in, and what they will tolerate.
> 
> I think the longer an insecure woman is with a secure man, the more secure she will become, and the fewer tests she will do. But they may never end entirely.
> 
> I feel like you're giving me one right now. There is some specific answer you are waiting for, and I really don't know what it is.


I think that what is so contentious is the idea you seem to put forth that a woman has no need for character, self-determination or accountability simply by virtue of biology. Personally, I find the ideas you propose where a woman can be petty, manipulative and infantile in every aspect of her relationship and a man is just supposed to take it for seemingly no other reason than she has a [email protected] and he has a pen!s, demeaning to both men and women.


----------



## Windwalker

jld said:


> Okay, something I have said has really touched a nerve with you and Sam and Larry. But I am not really sure what it is, other than you don't like **** tests and you don't like how I define security in a man.
> 
> I don't do them very often, but I know I do them. I didn't know they had a name before about six months ago.
> 
> *I don't think secure men are threatened by them. I think secure men know who they are, what they believe in, and what they will tolerate.*
> 
> I think the longer an insecure woman is with a secure man, the more secure she will become, and the fewer tests she will do. But they may never end entirely.
> 
> I feel like you're giving me one right now. There is some specific answer you are waiting for, and I really don't know what it is.


JLD,

In reference to your post here and in particular this part.

"I don't think secure men are threatened by them. I think secure men know who they are, what they believe in, and what they will tolerate."

So, what are you saying exactly? 

That because a man that doesn't like sh1t test that he's not secure?

That only a real and secure man will allow his SO to act like a immature teenager? An emotional fit, so to speak.

A real man should always be the bigger person and let his SO question his honesty and integrity, even if he has never done anything to bring it into question?


Sorry, I am very secure in who and what I am. There are certain ideas I will gladly die for. When you pull one of these test, you question his integrity and honesty. You insult him to his very core, if he's any kind of man at all.


The last time my wife pulled a **** test, I caught it. I told her straight up that it was dishonest and that if I didn't love her I wouldn't have put up with all her crap all these years. I am here because I want to be. I love you because I want to. Question my motives all you want, but i won't put up with this crap called a sh1t test.


----------



## Windwalker

COGypsy said:


> I think that what is so contentious is the idea you seem to put forth that a woman has no need for character, self-determination or accountability simply by virtue of biology. Personally, I find the ideas you propose where a woman can be petty, manipulative and infantile in every aspect of her relationship and a man is just supposed to take it for seemingly no other reason than she has a [email protected] and he has a pen!s, demeaning to both men and women.




:iagree:


Exactly! a girl can act like an infantile 13 year old, and because a man has a pen1s he had better put up and shut up.

Sorry, I'm not picking on anyone, in any way shape or from. I take this stance with any girl who plays this kind of attitude.


This ain't the 40's and 50's! Feminism gave you ladies all kinds of rights. Which include, being held accountable for your actions. Acting like upright and decent human beings. You don't like these results. Take it up with your sisters.


----------



## PieceOfSky

JLD,

Maybe there is a disconnect between what you have in mind as a sh!t test and the frequency thereof, and what others have in mind. Perhaps it would help if you could give a concrete example, if you feel comfortable doing so.

There is a trap one can fall into, which I laid for myself and jumped fully into. That is being as strong as you can and handling anything thrown at you without ever communicating what the experience has been.

I am happy for many times I have seen through moments in my wife's life when she was acting with a hidden agenda or passive aggressively from insecurity, and I held her, or bit my tongue and let this one or that one pass. I am happy I could see it for what it was, you know, when my kids a time or two screamed "I hate you, Dad" and stomped away from me when something didn't just go my their way or I or their mother were holding them to the truth.

But I also regret many times of not stopping the conversation, or the silence, and having a heart to heart and very direct conversation about "what just happened", because "what just happened" revealed indirectly that she and I have a very different opinion about something, and that I found her behavior hurtful, and I feared her behavior -- if it were to continue -- would do damage to our relationship and lead to much resentment. I am certain that my failure to not have those conversations, in the moment, has cost her, I and our children dearly.


It is nice, it really is, that your husband is strong enough and comfortable with himself and not thrown off by your "**** tests", whatever they are.

If they troubled him, I suspect you would rather he come to you and talk to you about them, but I don't really know you.

The notion, though, that anyone should tolerate silently behavior that hurts them or worries them or annoys them or makes them angry -- just because they can tolerate it -- is not something I see merit in.

FWIW, your assertion that a particular individual here "can't handle" certain behaviors from his partner, and, when challenged suggesting then he doesn't tolerate them because they are "inconvenient" to him comes across to me as disparagement. I hope you did not not mean it that way, but if you did I find that offensive. In any case, I think it misses the point: people should be careful of how they treat their partners; if something doesn't feel right to one partner, he or she should feel it is right and healthy to speak frankly with the the other; to ignore it, weakens the relationship over time; having boundaries, backed up by explicit limits if need be, is NOT weakness.

Some of those who have tried to make points along that line have learned it through painful experience, and have thought quite a bit about it. Those people deserve respect.


----------



## COGypsy

Windwalker said:


> :iagree:
> 
> 
> Exactly! a girl can act like an infantile 13 year old, and because a man has a pen1s he had better put up and shut up.
> 
> Sorry, I'm not picking on anyone, in any way shape or from. I take this stance with any girl who plays this kind of attitude.
> 
> 
> This ain't the 40's and 50's! Feminism gave you ladies all kinds of rights. Which include, being held accountable for your actions. Acting like upright and decent human beings. You don't like these results. Take it up with your sisters.


It wasn't any more appropriate in the "days of yore" than it is today. It just demeans and belittles both partners. I can't imagine feeling that it is in anyway acceptable to "communicate" that way with someone you purport to love, honor and respect. It demonstrates lack of character on the part of the person conducting the "test" and lack of boundaries and self-respect on the part of the person "taking" it. And to see it happen so commonly that it's become a behavior associated with my entire gender is just shameful.


----------



## NobodySpecial

ScarletBegonias said:


> I used to sh*t test before I knew there was a term for it and before I realized what I was doing.It ruined any emotional trust my ExH had with me and started a vicious cycle of events that couldn't be fixed.


Amen. Luckily I learned before the damage was irreparable. But also, he was disinclined to take it and set good limits. It just did not feel right BEING that kind of turd.


----------



## Jung_admirer

jld said:


> Okay, something I have said has really touched a nerve with you and Sam and Larry. But I am not really sure what it is, other than you don't like **** tests and you don't like how I define security in a man.
> 
> I don't do them very often, but I know I do them. I didn't know they had a name before about six months ago.
> 
> I don't think secure men are threatened by them. I think secure men know who they are, what they believe in, and what they will tolerate.
> 
> I think the longer an insecure woman is with a secure man, the more secure she will become, and the fewer tests she will do. But they may never end entirely.
> 
> I feel like you're giving me one right now. There is some specific answer you are waiting for, and I really don't know what it is.


I cannot respond honestly without sounding callous. I withdraw my question JLD ... be well.


----------



## ntamph

There's nothing that I love more than seeing my GF getting plowed by some VERY well hung stud who she met at a bar an hour or two ago and bought drinks for using my money. I also love how she rubs it in my face how VASTLY superior his manhood is and how it can do things I couldn't even think of.

For her part, she loves seeing me pick up easy *****es in the club who are so desperate for my manhood that I sometimes feel like a gazelle and they are the cheetahs. I sport **** coeds from the local college like I was born to do it. They love it and my GF loves it.































































Happy April Fools


----------



## Windwalker

COGypsy said:


> It wasn't any more appropriate in the "days of yore" than it is today. It just demeans and belittles both partners. I can't imagine feeling that it is in anyway acceptable to "communicate" that way with someone you purport to love, honor and respect. It demonstrates lack of character on the part of the person conducting the "test" and lack of boundaries and self-respect on the part of the person "taking" it. And to see it happen so commonly that it's become a behavior associated with my entire gender is just shameful.




It was never my intent nor did I say that it was appropriate now or then. Unfortunately, the day and age we live in now has little respect for the concept of marriage. The 40's and 50's comment was in reference to what I feel is emotional cake eating. You get all these right, but yet also want special treatment. It doesn't work that way. I treat you like a honest human being and you return the same treatment to me. You pull bullsh1t. I call you on it. I pull bullsh1t. You call me on it.

I couldn't agree with you more. I think if you have any kind of self respect you call them on the test and refuse to stoop to their level. 

And your right, the whole thing is way to prevalent in today's society. Just another reason I don't hold today's society in very high regards.


----------



## John Doe Rae

John Doe Rae said:


> I did own up to my sh!t. I was wrong and thoughtless towards her feelings. All I cared about at the time was how many takers I would have. I wanted a confidence boost. There in lies the problem.To her my actions said that ship wasnt enough for for me and that I didnt even love myself enough to be confident. There are many things wrong with this whole situation. I am surprised that she gave me another chance. And I will not squabble it. As I have concluded that she is all that I need and no I need to prove that to her. While her methods may be controversial it is eclipsed by my betrayal. I spoke with her about her methds and have chosen ncluded that should had just cause. I can save this relationship as long as I prove that she truly is everything I could ever want or need.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





Theseus said:


> Does anyone else get the feeling that John Doe Ray was writing this with his wife looking on over his shoulder?
> 
> In some ways, I admire the OP's wife as an evil genius. I wish I could get my partner to grovel to me so easily...


I can see how you might think that, but I have merely realized that if I want this relationship then I have to been in the right mind frame. I want her to feel secure. I destroyed her secure-ness. While she kind of asked for it, I still hurt her. I already talked to her about her sh!t test. I did not let that go unspoken so I am not groveling either. I am just trying to clear this up a little for you  Oh and she is 1500 miles away right now visiting family so she is most certainly not looking over my shoulder ^_^


----------



## JCD

John Doe Rae said:


> I can see how you might think that, but I have merely realized that if I want this relationship then I have to been in the right mind frame. I want her to feel secure. I destroyed her secure-ness. While she kind of asked for it, I still hurt her. I already talked to her about her sh!t test. I did not let that go unspoken so I am not groveling either. I am just trying to clear this up a little for you  Oh and she is 1500 miles away right now visiting family so she is most certainly not looking over my shoulder ^_^


If she would do that to you, you should ALSO feel a little less secure in your relationship if she is willing to lie to you and threaten you with divorce over something SHE initiated.

I am not trying to cause more problems. I am trying to avoid rug sweeping of an important principle. Sh!t tests are stress tests to marriages.

Stress tests break things.


----------



## John Doe Rae

JCD said:


> If she would do that to you, you should ALSO feel a little less secure in your relationship if she is willing to lie to you and threaten you with divorce over something SHE initiated.
> 
> I am not trying to cause more problems. I am trying to avoid rug sweeping of an important principle. Sh!t tests are stress tests to marriages.
> 
> Stress tests break things.


Yes, I have already spoken to her about it. She wasn't to ecstatic to be called on it to say the least but she got the message. It took me a little bit to convince her that I wasn't trying to justify my actions by shifting blame (Unfortunately I have done that), but once she believed me I am certain she understood what I was saying.


----------



## weightlifter

Ugh. I would be tempted to say fine with D if she into playing those kind of games. Wonder what the next sh!t test will be.

Be careful what you wish for. You just might get it.


----------



## Catherine602

John Doe Rae said:


> She asked first. She pushed but not very hard because I didnt resist. But as you should ha read, everything has.been resolved that can be resolved now. Now comes the repair and trust building stage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It wasn't clear from you initial posts that she was the one who suggested it first. That's an important piece of information and puts a completely different light on things. 

The change of mind and blaming you was indeed unfair because she came up with the idea in the first place. She may have been thinking of it and felt guilty and off loaded it onto you. 

I know you are trying to work things out but please consider covering all angles. Some kind of conflict may have beset her that she cannot own. It will probably take a third party to figure out. 

Although she said it was a test, I'm not so sure. She may have been thinking of exploring sexual experiences outside of the relationship. 

You said you were insecure. might that effect your approach sexually? Perhaps she wants you to e more dominant and confident sexually. 

I'm guessing here but I think you should consider alternatives. 

I hope that you take my posts in the spirit I intended. If I said anything that upset you, please accept my sincere apology. I really do wish you and your wife the very best.


----------



## Catherine602

What are the sh!t test that you give her? Does she pass them as well as you? What are your areas of insecurity?


----------



## JCD

Catherine602 said:


> What are the sh!t test that you give her? Does she pass them as well as you? What are your areas of insecurity?


Eh. Men can be just as passive aggressive.

Generally it's a 'you do what you have to do...' statement but an '...and if you do, I'll be FLAMING mad at you' if she does what she wanted to do, but not what HE wanted her to do.

Then she hears about it for a month or more.

I've seen it. I've done it. It isn't pretty and it isn't pleasant for either party.

These days, I am more direct. "No, I don't want you to do that."


----------



## JCD

jld said:


> Hi, Piece of Sky. I don't remember details of the last one. I remember he was mad when he figured it out, and I heard about it. I was quiet for a little bit, and then we sat and I talked to him about what I was feeling. Then it was all resolved.
> 
> Dh doesn't take this stuff personally. He doesn't like them when they happen, but he doesn't take it in and dwell on it or anything like that.
> 
> I don't get fragile men. That is just not the kind of man I live with. I do see now how other men react, though, and get emotional. But that is just not the kind of man I live with.
> 
> Our marriage is strong. I don't understand how a test can damage it. I am sure dh does not, either.



Yes, but I seriously doubt that YOUR sh-t tests involved open marriages or had the consequence of 'divorce'.

This is troubling at how far she is pushing something SHE came up with in the first place: that she would end her marriage over something she decided.

Now, granted, she didn't pull that trigger, but she waited a week of stewing before she explained his failure and also raised the price of his failure to 11.

When one talks about a failed marriage over a mere TEST...well, 'fragile' isn't the term I would use.


----------



## Machiavelli

Doe Rae Mi, are you sure your wife isn't visiting her LDBF?

How often do women hit on you?


----------



## Windwalker

"Originally Posted by jld View Post
Hi, Piece of Sky. I don't remember details of the last one. I remember he was mad when he figured it out, and I heard about it. I was quiet for a little bit, and then we sat and I talked to him about what I was feeling. Then it was all resolved.

Dh doesn't take this stuff personally. He doesn't like them when they happen, but he doesn't take it in and dwell on it or anything like that.

*I don't get fragile men. That is just not the kind of man I live with. I do see now how other men react, though, and get emotional. But that is just not the kind of man I live with.*

Our marriage is strong. I don't understand how a test can damage it. I am sure dh does not, either."



I'm not quite sure you get it. You are confusing FRAGILE men, with men how don't put up with the equivalent of an *EMOTIONAL TEMPER TANTRUM*.


Your husband obviously don't much care for them either from what you said. "I don't remember details of the last one. I remember he was mad when he figured it out, and I heard about it."

A strong man will call you on it and tell you to knock your crap off.

Hmmm. Kinda like what has been repeated by many of the guys here already.


----------



## jld

You know what dh does, Windwalker? Active listening. He asks me about the root cause. Oftentimes I just tell him, but when I cannot, he searches for it.

Just telling a woman to stop is not going to solve the root cause of the problem. It would not with me, anyway. It just shuts me down emotionally. 

And dh has figured out that he would rather have a real, live jld than a shut down, closed out shell of a woman.


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## JCD

jld said:


> You know what dh does, Windwalker? Active listening. He asks me about the root cause. Oftentimes I just tell him, but when I cannot, he searches for it.
> 
> Just telling a woman to stop is not going to solve the root cause of the problem. It would not with me, anyway. It just shuts me down emotionally.
> 
> And dh has figured out that he would rather have a real, live jld than a shut down, closed out shell of a woman.


I mean no disrespect but I am sorry you need to occasionally make your husband mad and miserable just so you can be 'real and live'.

Do you think maybe you might address the problem another way which does NOT involve pulling this stuff on him?

Not trying to make it personal but EVERY SINGLE MAN HERE says they resent this stuff.

How much emotional pain do WE need to suffer for your mental health?


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## Windwalker

jld said:


> You know what dh does, Windwalker? Active listening. He asks me about the root cause. Oftentimes I just tell him, but when I cannot, he searches for it.
> 
> Just telling a woman to stop is not going to solve the root cause of the problem. It would not with me, anyway. It just shuts me down emotionally.
> 
> And dh has figured out that he would rather have a real, live jld than a shut down, closed out shell of a woman.



I'm pretty sure we are not on the same page.
If you are having problems and want to talk, then he should listen to you. 

Here is a link to what I think is an accurate definition of a sh1t test, but it can come in any form.

Urban Dictionary: **** test


Sh1t tests are intentional knocks at a man.

If you use sh1t test to talk to your husband, then I suggest you find another way to say whats on your mind. Write a letter. Its a good way to get what's on your mind out of it.


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## John Doe Rae

Catherine602 said:


> It wasn't clear from you initial posts that she was the one who suggested it first. That's an important piece of information and puts a completely different light on things.
> 
> The change of mind and blaming you was indeed unfair because she came up with the idea in the first place. She may have been thinking of it and felt guilty and off loaded it onto you.
> 
> I know you are trying to work things out but please consider covering all angles. Some kind of conflict may have beset her that she cannot own. It will probably take a third party to figure out.
> 
> Although she said it was a test, I'm not so sure. She may have been thinking of exploring sexual experiences outside of the relationship.
> 
> You said you were insecure. might that effect your approach sexually? Perhaps she wants you to e more dominant and confident sexually.
> 
> I'm guessing here but I think you should consider alternatives.
> 
> I hope that you take my posts in the spirit I intended. If I said anything that upset you, please accept my sincere apology. I really do wish you and your wife the very best.


This was actually very insightful of you. I am also unsure if it actually was a test. I am pretty insecure and that does affect my approach sexually and I know she wants me to be more dominant and confident in myself. It has actually been a characteristic of mine my entire life. I am too anxious to please. It over burdens me. I just never would have thought it would manifest itself into this big explosion that happened.


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## jld

Windwalker said:


> I'm pretty sure we are not on the same page.


I think this is it.

I am not married to an emotional man. He doesn't flip out when I emote. He doesn't take it personally.

But you know what? Because he's not emotional, he doesn't notice a lot of things other men do. He's not sensitive to things they might be sensitive to. He is hard to shake, but he is hard to move, too. Sometimes I am just trying to reach him.

So when I come on TAM and read about emotional men who seem to get their feelings hurt so easily, I am baffled. But I am equally amazed by how they communicate so well and express their emotions so easily.


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## larry.gray

Theseus said:


> Does anyone else get the feeling that John Doe Ray was writing this with his wife looking on over his shoulder?
> 
> In some ways, I admire the OP's wife as an evil genius. I wish I could get my partner to grovel to me so easily...


If she is, I would imagine she's not entirely getting the response she was seeking.


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## Catherine602

John Doe Rae said:


> This was actually very insightful of you. I am also unsure if it actually was a test. I am pretty insecure and that does affect my approach sexually and I know she wants me to be more dominant and confident in myself. It has actually been a characteristic of mine my entire life. I am too anxious to please. It over burdens me. I just never would have thought it would manifest itself into this big explosion that happened.


John would you be willing to start a thread in the "Sex in Marriage" section of the site? 

There are really helpful people there who are dealing with issues or have had success or just posters who help'.

I you decide to post, be as complete as possible. Relationship history, approx age, yrs married, past and present problems and what you would like help with.

You can link back to this thread for further info. What do you think?


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## See_Listen_Love

John Doe Rae said:


> This was actually very insightful of you. I am also unsure if it actually was a test. I am pretty insecure and that does affect my approach sexually and I know she wants me to be more dominant and confident in myself. It has actually been a characteristic of mine my entire life. I am too anxious to please. It over burdens me. I just never would have thought it would manifest itself into this big explosion that happened.


If that is the case there is also the possibility she was testing the waters for herself.

Especially if you show the signs of being a doormat...

You are now hedged back in your doghouse, with the leash tight and secure. You would feel guilty, so she is sure plan B is safeguarded, and she might be comfortably looking for a better man...


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## sinnister

jld said:


> Okay, something I have said has really touched a nerve with you and Sam and Larry. But I am not really sure what it is, other than you don't like **** tests and you don't like how I define security in a man.
> 
> I don't do them very often, but I know I do them. I didn't know they had a name before about six months ago.
> 
> I don't think secure men are threatened by them. I think secure men know who they are, what they believe in, and what they will tolerate.
> 
> I think the longer an insecure woman is with a secure man, the more secure she will become, and the fewer tests she will do. But they may never end entirely.
> 
> I feel like you're giving me one right now. There is some specific answer you are waiting for, and I really don't know what it is.


JLD

I can see how you think it has a lot to do with security in a man. But I disagree. I think it has more to do with BS threshold.

I have a very low tolerance for other peoples BS. I deal with it all day at work, I deal with it on the commute to and from work, I deal with it at the grocery store. I deal with it at home with my crazy azz puppy, and my 7 year old who is just as stubborn and defiant as I was at that age.

So when a man like that get a sht test he's likely not going to react well. 

Not a security issue. In fact, I think a man that will call someone on their sht test is secure enough in himself to not care about the consequences of passing or failing one and just blowing it up before it starts.

If one of my daughters grows up and tells me a story about how she manipulated her husband in to providing this kind of answer I would say "leave me alone, I'm watching the game!" wait...no, I would say "you got what you deserved." Tough love.


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## ScarletBegonias

sinnister said:


> Not a security issue. In fact, I think a man that will call someone on their sht test is secure enough in himself to not care about the consequences of passing or failing one and just blowing it up before it starts.


:iagree:


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## weightlifter

Hey initiating sh!t tests is fine. OKAY. Again be careful what you wish for.

OP. Create a fake facebook using pics of good looking but not stunning guy. Use well known methods for boundary pushing and lure her into an EA. Hell get her to send dirty pics... If she fails, blame her and threaten divorce.

Then again OP's replacement may already be in the picture (15% chance) or on radar. (15% chance)


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## JCD

weightlifter said:


> Hey initiating sh!t tests is fine. OKAY. Again be careful what you wish for.
> 
> OP. Create a fake facebook using pics of good looking but not stunning guy. Use well known methods for boundary pushing and lure her into an EA. Hell get her to send dirty pics... If she fails, blame her and threaten divorce.
> 
> Then again OP's replacement may already be in the picture (15% chance) or on radar. (15% chance)


I think if the OP actually did this, every single woman would excoriate him as one of the worst people ever.

Mirrors are sometimes evil devices...they show what you don't want to see.


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## ScarletBegonias

I would be pretty interested to see if she took the bait.Now that she opened the gate and basically made sh*t testing ok in the marriage,why can't he play the same immature game right along with her.


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## jld

Sinnister, you feel like you're tired at the end of the day, and you don't want anything but straightforwardness from your wife, is that it?

And you think by telling her you are not going to play what to you looks like a game, you are letting her know what you will tolerate? Is that right?

From your pov, that makes sense. It seems very logical.

I am just not sure it makes sense from every woman's pov. Otherwise, I don't think we would know the term **** test. They just would not exist.

I would encourage people, when they feel like they are being put through these, because from what I am reading here, women say they go through them, too, to try to understand what is going on, why they are happening. So often seeking to understand, instead of just shutting someone down, can bring about growth.

If every time I got upset, my dh told me to just stop it, that he was tired and would not put up with it, I would probably be divorced. I would not feel listened to or understood at all.

Dh does get irritated with me, and even angry. But he has told me he is very careful how he expresses that, because he knows he could really hurt me, and he doesn't want to do that. 

And he doesn't want to shut me down, either.

Our marriage is based on a deep emotional connection. I have a great deal of trust in dh. He sees the worst of me and loves me anyway. I just cannot damage him or the marriage, sinnister. They are both just too strong.

That must be very hard for some people, especially people who have experienced extreme difficulty in their marriages, or even divorce, to understand. It probably seems unreal. But I am living it. 

No matter what I do, or say, or how I do it, dh is not put off. He just believes in the marriage and believes in me. Even if he gets irritated at the moment, he just comes back to seeking to understand, to figure out and resolve what is going on with me.

I can't relate to women who have to be so careful around their husbands. I freely emote to mine. If anything, I feel like sometimes I am trying to reach inside of him and pull out emotion. He is not scared of this. What annoys him is not even close to something that could break him. 

Again, I think in equal relationships, both people seem to have to be pretty careful. They are always taking care not to damage the other, because the relationship seems to rest on a careful, fragile balance.

My marriage is just not that fragile, sinnister. Dh is committed. He's solid. A temper tantrum or test from me is an irritation, not some big marriage damaging event. He would roll his eyes at the idea of open marriage. That is not even something that would enter our minds. 

I think if more men could be strong in themselves, and just let things roll off their backs, marriages would be stronger. But maybe this is just not possible.

Have you read The Way of the Superior Man? Great book.

Again, it is too bad that so many prefer to just shut down communication instead of exploring where that emotion leads. When a man or woman emotes, there is usually something underneath that is motivating that. When the other partner can really search for that, a lot of deeper problems can be solved. 

Dh says a lot of men do not want to go deep. They just do not want to be bothered.

And I think we need to get away from this idea of who is right and who is wrong. People have needs, and the needs will get met, one way or the other. It is more helpful to seek to understand needs, and how to meet them in healthy ways, than to try to cast blame.


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## samyeagar

jld said:


> I think this is it.
> 
> I am not married to an emotional man. He doesn't flip out when I emote. He doesn't take it personally.
> 
> But you know what? Because he's not emotional, he doesn't notice a lot of things other men do. He's not sensitive to things they might be sensitive to. He is hard to shake, but he is hard to move, too. Sometimes I am just trying to reach him.
> 
> So when I come on TAM and read about emotional men who seem to get their feelings hurt so easily, I am baffled. But I am equally amazed by how they communicate so well and express their emotions so easily.


I am an emotional man, but I am also extremely hard to shake. My feelings don't get hurt easily at all because I understand that I am the only one who owns MY feelings. I chose whether to be hurt or not. A sh1t test is an attempt to manipulate my ability to choose for myself.


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## John Doe Rae

Catherine602 said:


> John would you be willing to start a thread in the "Sex in Marriage" section of the site?
> 
> There are really helpful people there who are dealing with issues or have had success or just posters who help'.
> 
> I you decide to post, be as complete as possible. Relationship history, approx age, yrs married, past and present problems and what you would like help with.
> 
> You can link back to this thread for further info. What do you think?


I appreciate the thought but I think I would like to to try and fix it on my own first. My wife and I have been together for that o and a half years and married for just over one. This is the first time I have used a forum like this. I just dont want to become reliant on it you know?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

John Doe Rae said:


> I appreciate the thought but I think I would like to to try and fix it on my own first. My wife and I have been together for that o and a half years and married for just over one. This is the first time I have used a forum like this. I just dont want to become reliant on it you know?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


JDR, I would encourage you to keep talking to your wife, just as much transparent communication between you two as possible.

Are you doing the active listening? How is it going?


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## JCD

John Doe Rae said:


> I appreciate the thought but I think I would like to to try and fix it on my own first. My wife and I have been together for that o and a half years and married for just over one. This is the first time I have used a forum like this. I just dont want to become reliant on it you know?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Plus frank talk about your sex life is embarrassing 

It's okay. We'll leave the light on if you ever need to stop by.


----------



## samyeagar

jld said:


> Sinnister, you feel like you're tired at the end of the day, and you don't want anything but straightforwardness from your wife, is that it?
> 
> And you think by telling her you are not going to play what to you looks like a game, you are letting her know what you will tolerate? Is that right?
> 
> From your pov, that makes sense. It seems very logical.
> 
> I am just not sure it makes sense from every woman's pov. Otherwise, I don't think we would know the term **** test. They just would not exist.
> 
> I would encourage people, when they feel like they are being put through these, because from what I am reading here, women say they go through them, too, to try to understand what is going on, why they are happening. So often seeking to understand, instead of just shutting someone down, can bring about growth.
> 
> If every time I got upset, my dh told me to just stop it, that he was tired and would not put up with it, I would probably be divorced. I would not feel listened to or understood at all.
> 
> Dh does get irritated with me, and even angry. But he has told me he is very careful how he expresses that, because he knows he could really hurt me, and he doesn't want to do that.
> 
> And he doesn't want to shut me down, either.
> 
> Our marriage is based on a deep emotional connection. I have a great deal of trust in dh. He sees the worst of me and loves me anyway. I just cannot damage him or the marriage, sinnister. They are both just too strong.
> 
> That must be very hard for some people, especially people who have experienced extreme difficulty in their marriages, or even divorce, to understand. It probably seems unreal. But I am living it.
> 
> No matter what I do, or say, or how I do it, dh is not put off. He just believes in the marriage and believes in me. Even if he gets irritated at the moment, he just comes back to seeking to understand, to figure out and resolve what is going on with me.
> 
> I can't relate to women who have to be so careful around their husbands. I freely emote to mine. If anything, I feel like sometimes I am trying to reach inside of him and pull out emotion. He is not scared of this. What annoys him is not even close to something that could break him.
> 
> Again, I think in equal relationships, both people seem to have to be pretty careful. They are always taking care not to damage the other, because the relationship seems to rest on a careful, fragile balance.
> 
> My marriage is just not that fragile, sinnister. Dh is committed. He's solid. A temper tantrum or test from me is an irritation, not some big marriage damaging event. He would roll his eyes at the idea of open marriage. That is not even something that would enter our minds.
> 
> I think if more men could be strong in themselves, and just let things roll off their backs, marriages would be stronger. But maybe this is just not possible.
> 
> Have you read The Way of the Superior Man? Great book.
> 
> Again, it is too bad that so many prefer to just shut down communication instead of exploring where that emotion leads. When a man or woman emotes, there is usually something underneath that is motivating that. When the other partner can really search for that, a lot of deeper problems can be solved.
> 
> Dh says a lot of men do not want to go deep. They just do not want to be bothered.
> 
> And I think we need to get away from this idea of who is right and who is wrong. People have needs, and the needs will get met, one way or the other. It is more helpful to seek to understand needs, and how to meet them in healthy ways, than to try to cast blame.


I understand that I am not in your relationship, not privvy to everything, but what you describe here, from an outside point of view, I feel that there may be some things you are missing, that you are choosing not to see. I would be very careful in your assumptions that just because your husband does not show it, that he is not hurt by things. His closed off nature as you describe him, I feel it is also unlikely he would admit to it even if you asked him directly. You need to be careful of not killing your relationship with a thousand paper cuts.

Your words do seem to carry an aire of superiority and are disparaging. I am extremely secure in myself and my relationship with my STBW. That is part of the reason I am able to be direct and honest with her. I am not afraid of losing what we have. Yes, I do think before I say things, but that does not stop me from saying them. I am not worried that my honesty will upset the balance of things. Fortunately, she feels safe and secure enough to do the same, and oh boy does she have some doozies of emotional outbursts, and I listen. I take it. I let it roll off my back because I know she is being honest. I know she is not testing me. When she crosses lines, says things to be deliberately hurtful, I call her on it rather than be hurt by it. Maybe my standards are higher than some in that I demand respect and honesty.


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## jld

samyeagar said:


> I understand that I am not in your relationship, not privvy to everything, but what you describe here, from an outside point of view, I feel that there may be some things you are missing, that you are choosing not to see. I would be very careful in your assumptions that just because your husband does not show it, that he is not hurt by things. His closed off nature as you describe him, I feel it is also unlikely he would admit to it even if you asked him directly. You need to be careful of not killing your relationship with a thousand paper cuts.
> 
> Your words do seem to carry an aire of superiority and are disparaging. I am extremely secure in myself and my relationship with my STBW. That is part of the reason I am able to be direct and honest with her. I am not afraid of losing what we have. Yes, I do think before I say things, but that does not stop me from saying them. I am not worried that my honesty will upset the balance of things. Fortunately, she feels safe and secure enough to do the same, and oh boy does she have some doozies of emotional outbursts, and I listen. I take it. I let it roll off my back because I know she is being honest. I know she is not testing me. When she crosses lines, says things to be deliberately hurtful, I call her on it rather than be hurt by it. Maybe my standards are higher than some in that I demand respect and honesty.


I am glad that you feel secure with your new woman, sam. That must be very comforting to you.


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## ScarletBegonias

samyeagar said:


> I understand that I am not in your relationship, not privvy to everything, but what you describe here, from an outside point of view, I feel that there may be some things you are missing, that you are choosing not to see. I would be very careful in your assumptions that just because your husband does not show it, that he is not hurt by things. His closed off nature as you describe him, I feel it is also unlikely he would admit to it even if you asked him directly. You need to be careful of not killing your relationship with a thousand paper cuts.
> 
> Your words do seem to carry an aire of superiority and are disparaging. I am extremely secure in myself and my relationship with my STBW. That is part of the reason I am able to be direct and honest with her. I am not afraid of losing what we have. Yes, I do think before I say things, but that does not stop me from saying them. I am not worried that my honesty will upset the balance of things. Fortunately, she feels safe and secure enough to do the same, and oh boy does she have some doozies of emotional outbursts, and I listen. I take it. I let it roll off my back because I know she is being honest. I know she is not testing me. When she crosses lines, says things to be deliberately hurtful, I call her on it rather than be hurt by it. Maybe my standards are higher than some in that I demand respect and honesty.


I think this is fantastic! A very healthy relationship,imo.


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## Catherine602

John Doe Rae said:


> I appreciate the thought but I think I would like to to try and fix it on my own first. My wife and I have been together for that o and a half years and married for just over one. This is the first time I have used a forum like this. I just dont want to become reliant on it you know?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That is wise. Looking over the posts on your thread, I believe I would do the same. The best of luck.


----------



## weightlifter

JCD said:


> I think if the OP actually did this, every single woman would excoriate him as one of the worst people ever.
> 
> Mirrors are sometimes evil devices...they show what you don't want to see.


Actually he would be up there on the azzhole spectrum. So why is it ok for her to do her own version?

TRAP. OP's word.

TAM has an odd affect of giving people knowledge of the dark side. If I wanted to be evil. I could destroy hundreds of marriages with what I know. The methods are ridiculously easy.

I simply choose to use my knowledge anti affair side.


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## John Doe Rae

jld said:


> JDR, I would encourage you to keep talking to your wife, just as much transparent communication between you two as possible.
> 
> Are you doing the active listening? How is it going?


Everything is going great. Active listening definitely helped. Things are getting back to normal and she is perfectly willing to work on this relationship just as I an. For now our relationship is saved. But there is still much to work on 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

John Doe Rae said:


> Everything is going great. Active listening definitely helped. Things are getting back to normal and she is perfectly willing to work on this relationship just as I an. For now our relationship is saved. But there is still much to work on
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am so, so happy to hear this. Transparent communication and active listening can just work wonders. 

And you are both showing a lot of maturity in being willing to work on the relationship together. With mutual commitment, you should be able to overcome any challenges.


----------



## alphaomega

weightlifter said:


> I simply choose to use my knowledge anti affair side.


Your Kung fu wisdom is strong, Daniel-San!


Yes. Spouses who go through the shat people go through on here........that type of experience is an "innocence" destroyer.

Now, on dates....I'm analyzing and processing and contemplating...

And talking to the "moms" at school functions....after a while you can see the wheels spinning in thier heads...talking about family and marriage to the other moms....and you start processing which ones are going to be high potential cheat risks to thier husbands. 

Sometimes....I miss being oblivious.


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## PieceOfSky

John Doe Rae said:


> This was actually very insightful of you. I am also unsure if it actually was a test. I am pretty insecure and that does affect my approach sexually and I know she wants me to be more dominant and confident in myself. *It has actually been a characteristic of mine my entire life. I am too anxious to please. It over burdens me.* I just never would have thought it would manifest itself into this big explosion that happened.


That is very insightful _*of you*_. Don't let that insight go.

Carry it forward with you and look into a book called No More Mr. Nice Guy and see if any of it sounds familiar. You might also read up a bit on certain facets of co-dependence (i.e., people pleasing).

You have identified a characteristic of yourself that burdens you, but it is one that many others have found in themselves and successfully changed, leaving the burden behind. As these things go, it's a pretty fixable problem if you consciously choose to pursue fixing it. It's can also lead to a lifetime of the pain and frustration you just experienced, if you choose to ignore it.


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## Lyris

If I was deliberately deceitful and hurtful to my husband I wouldn't be worth his time. If I tried to trap and manipulate him, I wouldn't be worth his love. 

If my husband was emotionally unmoved by my bad behaviour it would be because he didn't feel much for me.


----------

