# Alternative Relationships and Marriages



## Faithful Wife

Update, March 30, 2018.....

If you are new to this thread, please don't respond to any of these posts from 2015 unless you read the whole thread or skip to the posts at the end made after today's date to see the outcome. Thank you....

(Original post starts here):

I don't know if this will be a good thread or not and have debated sharing this here but finally decided to go ahead with it. This forum is fairly mainstream (and IMO conservative to a point) so that's why I hesitated but eh, here goes.

After over a decade of difficult issues with my husband we have finally separated. At first I did not know what the outcome of this would be. 

We are madly in love, have a wonderful sex life, we respect and cherish each other...but we have always had some key issues we couldn't work out. These issues aren't a big deal compared to many marriages, but they are apparently not going to be resolved. We finally had to face this...yet we don't really want to split up. He is the love of my life, that part hasn't changed at all.

When we came to a crossroad and decided to separate, it was really scary. I didn't know if either of us might decide to just end it instead. But what happened was actually quite incredible...

We found that our main problem has really only been living together. We don't have kids in the home anymore, just the two of us, and our basic household style of living just never meshed well. This was the source of all of our unresolveable issues. When we took the living together part of it away, everything immediately got better.

We don't fight anymore, there's nothing to fight about. Our finances are separated, and even though that wasn't a big source of fights, it does help us each to be in full control of our own money and not have to worry what the other is doing. We are easily able to afford two households.

We really should have just kept both of our homes when we got together but like most people, we wanted to live together and merge. For us, that was the worst thing we could have done. We had no way of knowing that until we did it. Now we know better. Getting married was wonderful...moving in together was a disaster.

So at this time, we plan to have a loving, committed but separated marriage. I don't want anyone else, he doesn't either. We date each other and treat each other as guests in our respective homes. We will still vacation together, make investments together, and have each other as our heir in case of death and on life insurance policies.

Another issue coming up is that my mother is going to need some living assistance from me soon...she isn't there yet but it is right around the corner. So the plan right now is that I'm getting ready to sell my house and my mother and I will buy something together. My husband will buy a separate property nearby...or we may find a triplex or something that can accommodate all of us yet give us separate residences.

I know it is conventional wisdom that most separations lead to divorce. I think in our case it is different because neither of us were secretly trying to "get space" just to have more freedom and screw around or something like that. It truly was just that we realized we don't enjoy living together, even though we enjoy being married and committed.

I know there are a few alternative marriage models, usually having to do with the sex side of things: poly, open marriages, swinging, etc. I have actually been poly in the past and my husband has also been in alternative relationships before we met. Those models of marriage are great for some people, too. I really think we all need to rethink the marriage thing. Does it always have to look the same? What if you just aren't happy together in the traditional model but would be in some modified model?

This will sound immature, but the bottom line is that I never again want to fight over whose turn it is to clean the bathroom. I'll clean mine and he can clean his. 

I love him so much and I'm so glad this is working out for us. There may be a time in the future when we live together again but for now, it is just like having the best boyfriend in the world and I do not want to live with him.

I think others could benefit from this model as well as some of the other alternative models. And I say this even though I have no moral dilemma with divorce. I think people should not be stigmatized for getting divorced, it is both a risk and an option for everyone. Alternative models may be a good option to avoid divorce for a lot of people though, and more and more are trying it.

This was a good article on this topic:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...hould-traditional-marriage-be-our-only-option


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## SecondTime'Round

I remember reading an article about six months ago about a couple who is doing this and thought it was a fantastic idea for people like you and your H. Best wishes, and thanks for sharing!


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## tryingtobebetter

I hope it works out for you.

Helena Bonham Carter and Tim Burton did something like this for years but it did end in their relationship breaking up eventually. Maybe others have made it work long term.


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## OnTheFly

Faithful Wife said:


> ….and our basic household style of living just never meshed well. This was the source of all of our unresolveable issues.



This has me curious, can you flush it out more fully?


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## Faithful Wife

OnTheFly said:


> This has me curious, can you flush it out more fully?


The details are very specific to us. We're both very particular about certain things, and as it happens, the things we are particular about annoy the crap out of each other. He wants things his way. I want things my way. Our house wasn't big enough to accommodate us both having things our own way. But even a bigger house isn't going to allow us to do things our own way.

He has crap laying out all over the side yard, but the rest of his stuff is meticulously organized. The crap in the side yard drives me insane and I am tired of looking at it, yet there is no way I can clean it up myself and he'd be angry if I even tried. 

I like to leave my work clothes laying out on my stair banister in my bedroom when I get home from work and change into something comfy. I don't worry about hanging them up right away, I just hang them all up or put them in the laundry or dry cleaning bag on the weekends. This drives HIM crazy.

These are just two small examples but there are so many others that it is truly insurmountable for us. We've both tried to compromise and both end up being resentful and unable to sustain the compromise.

I know these are silly, small things that many couples can figure out but we just haven't been able to. Neither of us are right or wrong, we just don't want to change our stubborn ways. I've finally given up trying to change him OR myself and accepted that we both deserve to do it our own way. These things would never have been an issue at all if we hadn't moved in together. We both really did try though, we love each other and wanted to be able to do this in the same home...but after this long and still fighting about stupid things, we were ready to try something different.

I'm so glad we did.


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## Faithful Wife

tryingtobebetter said:


> I hope it works out for you.
> 
> Helena Bonham Carter and Tim Burton did something like this for years but it did end in their relationship breaking up eventually. Maybe others have made it work long term.


I'm going to guess it wasn't the same for them just due to the fame aspect of it. I have no idea what it must be like to be rich and famous but I would guess it is very difficult to maintain a marriage, whether living together or not. It seems like if you are rich and famous, that is your priority, not your partner.


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## jld

It does not really seem like you are separated, more like just living apart. 

Dug's sister's best friend in France lives this way with her husband. When they met, his wife had died a few years before, and he had an 8 year old daughter. She bought the house across from his, and they later married, though continuing to live in separate houses. 

Seems to work fine. The little girl has not had her life disrupted as much.


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## Faithful Wife

Separated is just the word I've chosen because we did used to live together but you are right, it does have a different meaning for different circumstances.


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## jld

Faithful Wife said:


> Separated is just the word I've chosen because we did used to live together but you are right, it does have a different meaning for different circumstances.


Did you legally separate?

You know, I am thinking of one of my cousins who got divorced after having been married for some time, maybe ten, fifteen years? She and her husband continued living together after the divorce. My sister said they got along a lot better than when they were married. No mention of other parties. They just preferred to live together without legal and financial attachment, I guess.

Different strokes for different folks.


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## MountainRunner

My senior tech and "right hand man" has been in a such a relationship with his SO for about 15 years. He and his SO had their own homes yet they remained (still do) together.


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## SecondTime'Round

FW, how long have you been doing this? Do either of you sleep over at the other's house? I'm assuming at least sometimes you do, but how do you decide who will be the one to visit the other? How far away are your homes?


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## gouge_away

FW the first thing that came to my mind was the new American Dream, you take the town house, I'm moving to the cottage on the lake.

I see it so often, I don't know if finances are separated in most cases, but these couples seem very happily married. And visit each other once a week, taking turns back and fourth.

Your still going to drop by and clean his bathroom right?


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## kristin2349

My business partner and his SO have done this for over 25 years. The only time their relationship doesn't work is when they have lived together or she spends too much time at his house. She has always been more flexible than he is about things and would prefer they were able to live together, but she loves him and so the compromise of two homes works for them. 

I am enjoying having my own space more and more since separating and filing for divorce. For the first time in my adult life my space is my own. I am loving having things exactly as I want them, no compromise. I literally went from my parents house to a dorm room, to my marital home. I don't know if I'll ever want to live with someone else again.


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## Starstarfish

Ultimately, as long as both parties agree what the terms of the relationship is or isn't and leaves both people feeling fulfilled and better being in the relationship than out of it, then that's a perfect relationship. And what that might look like is different for different people. So, all the best, FW for figuring out what works for the two of you.


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## EleGirl

If this works for both of you, then good for you two for finding a way to make it work!

I know a few couples who have done this for quite a while.

One of my paternal uncles lived in the USA. He dated a woman from Canada for years. When they married they did not move in together. She has a son in Canada. He has no children. They had separate finances and lived in their own countries but would travel together and visit each other often. They were married until he died a few years ago at 95. They were married 30 years or so. But I think that they were together like this for at least 45 years.

My ex (son's father) married woman. She has a daughter and we have a son. They lived together for about 6 years and filed for divorce. She moved back to her home. But they ended up stopping the divorce. They have lived apart since 2006. But they do everything together, vacations, holidays, birthdays, date, etc. It works for them I guess. My son told me that when they were living together all they did was fight and then she'd run off to her mother's for days (she's was in her 40's when they married, not a kid). It works for them. 

I work with a woman who found a job in the city where I live. Her husband stayed in the town where his job was. Then he retired and moved back in with her. He came down with throat cancer, He did survive. She took good care of him through all of this. But they just could not really get along living together. So they bought him a house close to her house. They are now getting along pretty well. They have no children. They have been married for about 25-30 years.


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## EleGirl

The separations that usually end in divorce are the ones in which one or both are ready to end the marriage and/or the hurt is so deep that they cannot work through it and repair.

Your not really separated (I know that you know this.). You have just made living arrangements that work for you.


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## gouge_away

I read articles about home building trends, 2 master suites is the new 'open concept.'


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## Holland

Wow OK not what I expected to see logging on this morning. 

All power to you FW, I will be interested to hear about your lifestyle choice as it develops.

In Aussie one of the fastest growing segments in types of relationships is monogamous couples that live separately, the main difference is that these are mostly couples that never lived together, post first marriage/divorce type couples. Here separation is not something that is the norm like over there, in that when a couple separate here it usually means they are taking the first step to divorce as they need to be legally separated for 12 months before they can apply for divorce. It is not a lifestyle choice, semantics I know but I would see you more as a two household family than separated.

Anyway our future plans involve selling up our suburban properties and buying two kick arse properties, one inner city with little maintenance (my dream home), a tram ride to the city so we can have more fun going to shows etc. The second will be out in the country which is Mr H dream. We can then be together 7 days a week, or we could spend some time apart in the different homes, the kids can come and go and stay where ever they like, they could have the city pad for a party weekend while we are in the country. I could have a girls weekend in the country and he could have a guys weekend in the city, whatever we want to do.

I see it is being free and fortunate enough to have options and to set your own rules. Sounds like you guys know what will strengthen your relationship, anything is achievable with the right intentions.


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## the guy

Two simple words....

IT WORKS!

I think its pretty cool cuz the both of you did your job in completing what you both started {raising kids) and now you can hang out under each others terms.

What I really like is in time...maybe in 20 more years...one of you are going to *want* to live together.....why cuz one of you will be so screwed up they won't be able to wipe their own @ss and wipe the drool from their chin!

Maybe that's why we all stick this shyt out so we can take care of the one we truely love when one of us is so phucking old some one is going to walk off and not remember were the hell they live and at least there will be some one to go out and find the one they love give them and beer and feed them as the wipe the piss off the floor.


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## ConanHub

I have to admit I find it a little silly but not offensive at all.

I don't even think it breaks any of my rules that come from my good book.

Good food for thought and another research project.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## richardsharpe

Good evening
If it works, then I see nothing wrong with it. There is no reason every relationship has to follow the same pattern. 

The one thing I think you should be careful about is to be sure you both agree on the relationship parameters. Since the arrangement is non-traditional, you can't necessarily assume that you both have assumed the same rules / guidelines. Just be sure to talk about money, same-sex friends, etc.


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## WandaJ

If I get divorce this would be very tempting option to me. I've read that is also becoming more popular, so popluar that tax office in UK has created separate category for tax purpose: Together Living Apart. (People from UK correct me if I am wrong). I think Andrew Sullivan had the whole thread about it on hisblog.

It is cool idea when kids are out of picture and if you can afford it.


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## morituri

We are all separated from one another, it's just a matter of scale.

Maybe the word "Spacers" could be a good one for folks who implement these type of living arrangements.


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## jld

Personal said:


> I thought their relationship ended because she couldn't get over the fact I was taken.


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## Faithful Wife

jld said:


> Did you legally separate?


No, there's no reason to do that other than when considering child custody issues.


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## Faithful Wife

SecondTime'Round said:


> FW, how long have you been doing this? Do either of you sleep over at the other's house? I'm assuming at least sometimes you do, but how do you decide who will be the one to visit the other? How far away are your homes?


He moved out in January of this year.

He's only a few miles away from me, and we both work in the same area.

We see each other usually 3 or 4 times a week...not usually an overnighter though.

He usually comes to my house because I have the hot tub. :smile2:


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## Faithful Wife

kristin2349 said:


> I am enjoying having my own space more and more since separating and filing for divorce. For the first time in my adult life my space is my own. I am loving having things exactly as I want them, no compromise. I literally went from my parents house to a dorm room, to my marital home. I don't know if I'll ever want to live with someone else again.


I also never technically lived alone before now. I went from high school to roommates to boyfriends to husband #1, then when we split it was me and the youngest kid who was in HS, then my current hubby...no where in there did I live truly alone full time.

I can't say I am enjoying living alone necessarily...I loved being surrounded by people I love my whole life. But this is doing something to my psyche that I realize now was very important, and I'm glad for it. The personal growth is refreshing.

As I said in a previous post, my mom and I will be moving in together soon (and likely will be until the end of her life) and eventually, my H and I may either choose to live together again or we will have to due to the needs that come along with aging. I definitely plan to be the one to wipe his ass when he gets to that point, or to ask him to wipe mine. Ah...love.


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## Faithful Wife

ConanHub said:


> I have to admit I find it a little silly but not offensive at all.
> 
> I don't even think it breaks any of my rules that come from my good book.
> 
> Good food for thought and another research project.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hmmm....well I guess I never worried for a moment whether you'd find it offensive or not...and I also don't consider this major life transition to be "silly". I am not a research project.

I don't need your support Conan, but it would be nice.


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## Faithful Wife

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> If it works, then I see nothing wrong with it. There is no reason every relationship has to follow the same pattern.
> 
> The one thing I think you should be careful about is to be sure you both agree on the relationship parameters. Since the arrangement is non-traditional, you can't necessarily assume that you both have assumed the same rules / guidelines. Just be sure to talk about money, same-sex friends, etc.


I don't know if I will be able to say this quite right, but my husband and I are beyond these type of games. By the time you've had to go through the type of transition we have gone through, and when you've had the types of pasts we've had, there's just no point in cheating or stealing from each other. We'd just walk if we wanted to f*ck other people, and we both have our own money. It wouldn't be a problem for either of us to say "I'm out"...we are both divorced once before and have no moral issues with sex or divorce. If either of us wanted this, the other would just let go with dignity and grace.

The effort we have had to put forth to stay committed, monogamous, kind and loving has required us to be at our very best, our most forthcoming and open, and I'm really proud of both of us.


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## coffee4me

I've read about "living together apart" because I like the idea of having a SO in my future but I do not like the idea of living with that person. 

I had a professor that lived this way with her husband their houses were across the street from each other. The only twist was that they were actually raising 3 kids together and the kids went back and forth like joint custody. Interesting marriage but she was very happy. 

FW, I hope this works out for you long term. I can really see the advantages of this type of marriage especially when you are going to be a caregiver to your mother.


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## richardsharpe

Good evening
I didn't mean to imply games, just to give a caution that you should be sure you are both interpreting the situation the same way. From your reply, it sounds like you are. 

I have a long time friend who has spent most of his 20 year marriage living far from his wife. He job requires her to be on travel ~75% of the time, often for months at a time in very remote locations. Their relationship works for them, the both seem very happy. 







Faithful Wife said:


> I don't know if I will be able to say this quite right, but my husband and I are beyond these type of games. By the time you've had to go through the type of transition we have gone through, and when you've had the types of pasts we've had, there's just no point in cheating or stealing from each other. We'd just walk if we wanted to f*ck other people, and we both have our own money. It wouldn't be a problem for either of us to say "I'm out"...we are both divorced once before and have no moral issues with sex or divorce. If either of us wanted this, the other would just let go with dignity and grace.
> 
> The effort we have had to put forth to stay committed, monogamous, kind and loving has required us to be at our very best, our most forthcoming and open, and I'm really proud of both of us.


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## manfromlamancha

Well I'm going to go against the flow and here are my comments:


To me this works because both of you have probably had marriages before (and maybe kids) and this is your second or third time around.

If you were newly married this could easily sound the death knell for the marriage. In short, it would be difficult to develop a deep marital relationship based on this.

I cannot see this as a marriage. It is more like you guys are dating exclusively ("we can walk anytime if we want sex with others, we are financially independent, the vows really don't matter etc).

But if it makes you happy then why not. But it is not a marriage. And maybe thats a good thing and not what you need.


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## Holland

intheory said:


> Living at home with my mother/stepfather wasn't all that great. But I did have my own room.
> 
> And I moved directly from home to living with boyfriend-now-husband.
> 
> Every aspect of living seems to be something we can disagree on. Where to hang pictures. How to store stuff. How to arrange the dishwasher. What kind of furniture to buy. How the dishes get arranged in the kitchen cabinet. *The direction clothes are supposed to be hung up in the closet.* Not making the edge of the drapes hang off the track so they are easier to open, instead of reaching over for the pull cord. etc. etc. etc. Haggle, haggle, back and forth, over and over.
> 
> That's a small sample. I could go on and on and on. So, I think I really understand where you are coming from FW. This kind of stuff can just drip, drip, drip and corrode your feelings toward each other.
> 
> I don't think I would like to live miles away from H. But, like I posted earlier, two duplexes with a connecting doorway might be nice. I'll confess that I fantasize about stuff like that quite a bit.
> 
> I really hope this works well for you.


Well we all know that they are supposed to be hung up with the front of the garment facing the direction of where you enter the room or wardrobe they are hanging in.

FW my ex and I owned two houses next to each other years ago. One we lived in and the one next door was a rental, we often laughed about each of us living in a house each. Funny to look back on now, I wonder if life would have been different if we actually did that. Of course we would not have gotten the rental income though.


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## Faithful Wife

manfromlamancha said:


> Well I'm going to go against the flow and here are my comments:
> 
> 
> 
> To me this works because both of you have probably had marriages before (and maybe kids) and this is your second or third time around.
> 
> If you were newly married this could easily sound the death knell for the marriage. In short, it would be difficult to develop a deep marital relationship based on this.
> 
> I cannot see this as a marriage. It is more like you guys are dating exclusively ("we can walk anytime if we want sex with others, we are financially independent, the vows really don't matter etc).
> 
> But if it makes you happy then why not. But it is not a marriage. And maybe thats a good thing and not what you need.


Don't misrepresent what I said. My response to Richard was specific because he was warning me to talk about rules to guard against cheating and stealing from each other. 

Our monogamy and vows are completely in tact by our choice. My point in that other post was that rather than cheating on each other in any way, we would take the high road and end the marriage instead. 

Saying mine is not a marriage is just silly since we are in fact married. Many people are married but live in different places for a whole lot of reasons. 

You are right that if we were younger and had small kids this arrangement would not be preferable or sustainable.


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## john117

The vast majority of separate marriages are work related, not because one is a neatness freak and the other is not.

Having said this, the driving force - acknowledged or not - is the change you have coming with your mother. That may make the living arrangements be a good thing. 

Long term? I don't know what long term means to you. If he's not going to take care of you now when you're down with the flu it will be harder to extrapolate what's his behavior down the road going to be when / if you're down with something more challenging. Long term it's also financially more expensive to support two homes. 

At an older age I suppose it's workable. It will be an interesting social experiment regardless. But I do find it peculiar that a couple so well emotionally connected is not able / willing to either compromise or ignore small stuff.


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## ConanHub

Faithful Wife said:


> Hmmm....well I guess I never worried for a moment whether you'd find it offensive or not...and I also don't consider this major life transition to be "silly". I am not a research project.
> 
> I don't need your support Conan, but it would be nice.


You shouldn't be offended. Just because I find something silly doesn't make it wrong.

I actually was supportive in my post. I will also research this biblically because, upon examination, I think the lifestyle you are attempting might just hold up.

I was just sharing a different POV. You have my support but I always wait to encourage until I am educated on an issue.

This is an area I actually haven't explored and I think it will prove to be an acceptable form of marriage in my community.

I take pleasure in promoting and teaching on issues that go against common assumptions in religious communities but don't actually contradict the bible.

I am looking forward to pursuing this as I have never heard it brought up before.

At first glance, it looks like a good set up, especially given the dynamic between you and your sex god! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Faithful Wife

It's confusing to us too john. We are both stubborn and kinda crazy I guess. This also keeps us bonded.

He would certainly come take care of me at anytime I needed it, flu or whatever. And I would as well.

He would also still help me take care of my mother if or when needed and he already has done so much for my entire family. The goodwill bucket is very full.


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## OnTheFly

ConanHub said:


> I take pleasure in promoting and teaching on issues that go against common assumptions in religious communities but don't actually contradict the bible.


Before I address Conan's quote here, I want to thank FW for responding to my question on page one. I needed to know some of the specifics of the issues caused by living together. It helped to paint a better picture. 

To Conan….In the Bible, the oft quoted Scripture regarding love is 1 Cor. 13. If you read it you'll notice it doesn't once mention any warm, fuzzy feelings. All are actions to be taken. If you claim to love someone with a genuine deep love, yet cannot be around them because of stubbornly (admitted by FW) held modes of living……then I would question the commitment to love, in that, pig-headedness over rides compassion, compromise, empathy, patience, etc. 

I'm not yet able to support ManFromLaMancha's idea that this is not a marriage, but I do think it's far down on the 'ideal' scale. I certainly wouldn't praise or encourage it. 

Just my opinion.


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## Kristisha

I never thought I will come upon this subject on this forum, especially since it's a bit controversial. As I was saying in some other posts of mine my parents had a different relantionship previous their separation.

And that started since I was about 10. They tried to disguise it but I was curious because all my friends family seemed different then mine. My parents were sleeping in different bedrooms and after a while they had their finances separate. And this developed in they living separate . But to me it was confusing at first, but it became the new Normal. In their eyes they were still together even though they had an open relantionship as well and that made me to be embarrassed.

But this aspect of their relantionship was hard to comprehend by the majority of people. And when my husband met them it was certainly something different.

And when I got married I went to sleep in a separate bedroom, and our finances were separate and that was quite a shock for my H. But he had patience with me and I started slowly to be "together " with him and what I found out is that it was very enjoyable. Even our finances was somehow easier to manage.

So to be on point OP it can work if you both are on the same page. But I much rather having the usual lifestyle.


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## Faithful Wife

Conan thank for your post but please understand your bible means nothing to me. My husband and I are not needing anyone's approval. I of course leave it to you to check into whatever you want...But it is your issue not mine and it is irrelevant to me what you may discover in your research.

It actually is offensive to tell someone you need to check and see if they are a sinner or not. I know Christians sometimes don't understand that but we non Christians don't need your judgement, which is what you are doing. Maybe if you were more honest about being judgmental then at least there could be a dialog about it but hiding behind the bible to make it look like it isn't you making the judgment is weak.


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## ConanHub

FW. You have a tendency to receive offense where none is offered.

I am sharing why this topic is interesting to me. I never tried to impose my structure on you.

This actually may turn out to be a workable solution for some in my community. Can you understand my interest?

I am not attempting to put my practices and beliefs over your situation.

The inverse is true. I am putting this particular practice of yours into my community and seeing how it fits.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub

OnTheFly. Your disagreement with my opinion would be better served in another thread.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Deejo

Having the information you have now, had you had it during your 'courting' phase, would you have chosen marriage?

This is pretty much exactly why I don't see myself choosing marriage again. There are so many things I am willing to compromise on with regard to preserving and growing a relationship.

And there are others, I'm simply ... not.


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## Faithful Wife

Conan, I will accept that I am sometimes offended when I shouldn't be. But in this case I am offended by your words even though you meant no offense. Your previous post was full of judgment whether you can see that or not and whether you believe you are saying and doing all this in the name of your community or not. 

Perhaps if I told you I will check with my goat worshipping cult to see if your marriage meets their standards or not due to the age difference or the raising of someone else's kid, just out of my own curiosity not to judge you or anything, maybe then you could understand why your post was offensive to me. The goat cult is not real...But if it was I am guessing you would not want to know anything about what it thinks of your choices in someone else's community.


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## Faithful Wife

Deejo said:


> Having the information you have now, had you had it during your 'courting' phase, would you have chosen marriage?
> 
> This is pretty much exactly why I don't see myself choosing marriage again. There are so many things I am willing to compromise on with regard to preserving and growing a relationship.
> 
> And there are others, I'm simply ... not.


I don't know. It's funny because we really thought the living together part would be easy and at first we just talked about that and not about getting married. But it turns out we both love the being married part but hate the living together part. 

I have no marriage regrets at all...just the living arrangements.

So I guess my answer is that I would have chosen to get married but immediately buy a duplex together and sell both our homes.


----------



## ConanHub

LOL! I wouldn't be offended in the least!

FW I will apologize for offending but you are taking something from me that was never offered.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub

P.S. I am about sharing information.

If a goat cult wanted to research an aspect of my life to see if it would be beneficial to their community, I would be more than happy to share.

I really didn't think my position offensive as I would not take offense myself.
Again, apologies. Was the farthest thing from my mind to cause offense.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Faithful Wife

No worries Conan. Thank you for what you are saying.


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## norajane

Deejo said:


> Having the information you have now, had you had it during your 'courting' phase, would you have chosen marriage?
> 
> This is pretty much exactly why I don't see myself choosing marriage again. There are so many things I am willing to compromise on with regard to preserving and growing a relationship.
> 
> And there are others, I'm simply ... not.


My SO are in this situation right now. We've been talking about marriage and our future together frequently. But a marriage license is problematic - the marriage tax penalty would be expensive for us, and neither of us feels any desire to needlessly pay extra tax money when we can save it for ourselves. 

And living together would be complicated since we each have our own properties and would need to sell those, buy a third property for the two of us that could accommodate our stuff, and our respective lifestyle, work life, and personal needs... That would would also be expensive and we'd both need to compromise so neither of us would have things exactly how we want them, which is what we each already have now living apart.

It works really well this way. We spend as much time together as we want, and as much time doing our own thing as we want. We each keep some stuff at the other's house so going between the two is pretty easy. We vacation together, spend holidays with each other's families, and are a committed couple in every way. It makes more sense for us to wait on living together and marriage until one of us does the early retirement thing we're planning for.

On one of our last vacations, we met another couple like us. They were also in their 40's like us, together for a long time, but they still live apart mostly due to job/time issues and real estate. They called themselves a "weekend couple," lol, and seemed very content.


----------



## john117

Except that you weren't married for a while, norajane. 

Again, I can't help but wonder about what the Rationalization Hamster would be doing just about now. Probably he'd be spinning his hamster wheel faster than my 10,000 rpm hard drive...

It is a practical choice but it seems to me that all those in TAM who imply that marriage is gestalt, larger than the sum of its parts, are rooting for FW. 

Maybe I'm old school but to me marriage is two separate people sharing experiences, good and bad. If you limit experiences by virtue of living apart and seeing each other generally at your best, you simply propagate a fairy tale version of the relationship. Yea, it's more exciting and more practical, but again, you're putting individual needs ahead of relationship needs.

I subscribe to the same philosophy, mind you, but I find it curious that such a drastic measure has to be taken.

A few months ago, J2 woke up lightheaded (from not eating lolz) and passed out while going down the stairs. I was about to leave for work and heard the telltale thunk on the stairs. I went back inside and took care of her. Let's hope you don't need this but still...


----------



## Faithful Wife

John...the funny thing about your post IMO is that you hate your wife, have declared marital warfare on her, you constantly talk about what a horrible person she is, and you plan on leaving her as soon as you can based on financial decisions rather than out of concern for her. 

Whereas I have done nothing but talk about how much I love and cherish my husband and I don't plan to ever divorce him.

But above you are implying you are in a better marriage than I am.

Sorry but...I'll take mine over yours any day. 

My husband has always taken care of me and my entire family....with no reward other than our love and appreciation. I have no doubt he will continue to do so.

I am currently sitting in an airport. In a couple hours when I land he is picking me up and taking me home, we will go out to dinner and then we will make wild monkey love and then he's staying the night. 

You have way more issues than we do, my TAM friend.


----------



## Justinian

Faithful Wife said:


> ... We really should have just kept both of our homes when we got together but like most people, we wanted to live together and merge. For us, that was the worst thing we could have done. We had no way of knowing that until we did it. Now we know better. Getting married was wonderful...moving in together was a disaster.


We have long-time friends that have been living in separate houses (about three blocks apart) since the day they were married, almost thirty years ago.

They have so much in common, but the way they keep their homes is completely different. They both love to travel, and never do that separately that I know of. 

We socialize with them on a regular basis, and they are one of the happiest couples we know. When we first met them, their arrangement seemed a little odd to us, but after all these years I don't think we can imagine them living any other way.


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## soccermom2three

FW, when I read your post I have to admit that I was surprised. My traditionalist views made me think, "Wait! Married people are supposed to live together!" but then I thought, "Why do I care?" If two people figure out best and happiest way to be married and both are in agreement, I should be happy for them So I'm very happy for you.


----------



## john117

I did not imply anything of the sort. But I'm glad you have clairvoyant skills capable of divining intents that work across multiple time zones.

A marriage is the glorious wild monkey sex part plus the mundane parts. If you decline the mundane parts and only stick with the Cinderella parts of courtship, while it sounds good, one can't help but wonder about the superficiality of it.

For the record, J2 did end up with a mild concussion and ignored both the ER doc and my recommendation to stay home. An hour after we came back from the ER she drove to work 

That's what NotNormalPeople (tm) think like, FW. I should eBay my glass slippers at some point.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Pretty ironic coming from you john. I am wondering what point there is here for you. Where will you get your "mundane parts brownie points" from in the future when you have carried out your marital jihad? 

Talk about superficial. You get off on openly putting down your wife's mental illness and painting yourself as the victim. I can't really see any kindness, compassion or concern coming from you for her here. You were there when she hit her head? Any stranger would have done the right thing in that circumstance, no mundane brownie points needed. 

It doesn't surprise me that you would project your superficial ideas upon me and others.

You live in a constant state of revenge seeking toward her so what else would we expect to hear, I suppose.

I don't expect you to understand a situation that is beyond your comprehension. No one who would even utter the words marital warfare in a serious manner would get what I'm doing right now.


----------



## Faithful Wife

soccermom2three said:


> FW, when I read your post I have to admit that I was surprised. My traditionalist views made me think, "Wait! Married people are supposed to live together!" but then I thought, "Why do I care?" If two people figure out best and happiest way to be married and both are in agreement, I should be happy for them So I'm very happy for you.


Thanks soccer mom. I'm happy for us, too. I can't imagine not being married to him and I don't want to. I never really thought we wouldn't live together before but now that we don't, I'm very happy and surprised how well it is working out.


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## MEM2020

John,

FW and her H fully intend to care for each other through - end of life. I believe she explicitly referred to this as the 'ass wiping' phase. 

Their friction resulted in the adoption of a new arrangement that preserves the good, while minimizing the bone on bone conflict over control of shared space. 

I'm having an increasingly hard time understanding your viewpoint...




john117 said:


> Except that you weren't married for a while, norajane.
> 
> Again, I can't help but wonder about what the Rationalization Hamster would be doing just about now. Probably he'd be spinning his hamster wheel faster than my 10,000 rpm hard drive...
> 
> It is a practical choice but it seems to me that all those in TAM who imply that marriage is gestalt, larger than the sum of its parts, are rooting for FW.
> 
> Maybe I'm old school but to me marriage is two separate people sharing experiences, good and bad. If you limit experiences by virtue of living apart and seeing each other generally at your best, you simply propagate a fairy tale version of the relationship. Yea, it's more exciting and more practical, but again, you're putting individual needs ahead of relationship needs.
> 
> I subscribe to the same philosophy, mind you, but I find it curious that such a drastic measure has to be taken.
> 
> A few months ago, J2 woke up lightheaded (from not eating lolz) and passed out while going down the stairs. I was about to leave for work and heard the telltale thunk on the stairs. I went back inside and took care of her. Let's hope you don't need this but still...


----------



## Faithful Wife

He he, you said bone.


----------



## Deejo

Irony and prickliness aside ...

The people who will look at this arrangement, nod, smile and agree with whatever works [me amongst them] will generally do so because we've already had enduring love, vows, and the belief that love overcomes all, dashed on the rocks of reality.

In other words, mistakes have been made and we adjust our expectations as a result.

For those in the full blush of youth and that brilliance of love ... they are going to opt for the mainstream. Because that is their expectation. As it was ours at one point.


----------



## norajane

john117 said:


> Except that you weren't married for a while, norajane.
> 
> Again, I can't help but wonder about what the Rationalization Hamster would be doing just about now. Probably he'd be spinning his hamster wheel faster than my 10,000 rpm hard drive...
> 
> It is a practical choice but it seems to me that all those in TAM who imply that marriage is gestalt, larger than the sum of its parts, are rooting for FW.
> *
> Maybe I'm old school but to me marriage is two separate people sharing experiences, good and bad. If you limit experiences by virtue of living apart and seeing each other generally at your best, you simply propagate a fairy tale version of the relationship. Yea, it's more exciting and more practical, but again, you're putting individual needs ahead of relationship needs.*
> 
> I subscribe to the same philosophy, mind you, but I find it curious that such a drastic measure has to be taken.
> 
> A few months ago, J2 woke up lightheaded (from not eating lolz) and passed out while going down the stairs. I was about to leave for work and heard the telltale thunk on the stairs. I went back inside and took care of her. Let's hope you don't need this but still...


I'm not sure why you think we don't share life experiences together, good _and _bad, just because we don't live together, or that we only see each other at our best. We've known each other for almost 30 years...we _know _each other deeply and have most definitely seen each other at our absolute worst, and have seen each other through the absolute worst. 

I'm not saying anyone and everyone needs to set things up this way, but our relationship is happier for it at this time.


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## john117

Your relationship was like that from the beginning, was it not? And reasons other than "I love him but I can't stand it when he's doing XYZ" were the main reason, right?

I lived a year apart from J2 early on in our marriage, and another 6 month stint separate from her. Both times due to work. We saw each other every couple weeks, the works. My parents did it too when my father was in active duty. My daughter is doing a long distance relationship and will be for another 3-6 years. And she prefers to be alone. 

I can also understand how someone more mature might not want traditional marriage arrangements. But FW's seem a bit too contrived in my opinion. If you start a relationship as married and get along so well, go the extra mile and address what you need to address. 

But if it works for them, I applaud the choice and that's all there is to it.


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## john117

MEM11363 said:


> John,
> 
> 
> 
> FW and her H fully intend to care for each other through - end of life. I believe she explicitly referred to this as the 'ass wiping' phase.
> 
> 
> 
> Their friction resulted in the adoption of a new arrangement that preserves the good, while minimizing the bone on bone conflict over control of shared space.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm having an increasingly hard time understanding your viewpoint...



My viewpoint is simple. To me, marriage is all about sharing experiences. It is for that reason that I have given up on my marriage. Lack of shared experiences. Not the Cinderella ball dance moments, but the "look where the kitten has gotten into" moments that have little permanence.

During the wiping phase of the marriage a rich set of emotional memories about mundane things is what fills up the plate. Yea, the Cinderella moments too, but unless you're a celebrity you'll need a mix of both. 

Also, depending on how long it is between now and the wiping phase, you'll have a rich repertoire of good memories and few, if any, bad ones. How will you adjust back to more traditional arrangements? Don't forget that the older you get the less tolerant and patient you get. How will you deal with slob @ T+10 years if you've thrown in the towel at T+1 years?

All I am saying is that where there is a will there is a way if egos don't get in the way.


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## SimplyAmorous

We've never yet met anyone who was married but lived in separate residences (that we knew of)....with so much Travel/ working in different locations.. it will probably be more common even for practical purposes -if nothing else. I feel these would be harder.. due to getting sexually lonely (want to feel some skin) over living down the street type thing though. 

Here is another one...I mentioned this to my husband....and he shoots back "well 2 co -workers - they got divorced.. then MOVED BACK In with each other!!"..... one didn't remarry.. and well.. they get along pretty good.. the other ...he cheated on her yrs ago.. (she stopped wanting sex).. ..they divorced... but remained friends for their daughter..up in age now...here he married her again... so she could get his benefits/ pension .. 

Then there was another co-worker .. I guess they didn't get along too well...Solution... she threw him in the basement (or they both agreed, not sure)...this brought enough harmony to stay together... 

You do what you need to do.. for practicality ....for more Calm... I know of a lady who wants to get married to her BF...as does HE.. but due to loosing some settlement $$ or something (I forget her story now) they can't ... or won't....some do things for the financial aspect even if it's not their ideal.. some choose another alternative solution -to keep the fires going.. or to get along.. 

Esther Perel's "Mating in Captivity" may understand this.. in keeping the passion alive too.. (not as much time spent together).. 

Just a thought here.. I know yourself & Husband are both stronger willed Alphas.. do you feel this plays a part ?? I think of the relationship of *PINK* and Carey Hart .. passion & love on the high scales...but they CAN'T seem live together calmly..... they have married / divorced, married again.. basically they fight too much!!... but when they get in the same room, the clothes come off.. Ha ha (she said this in an interview yrs ago)..it's been tumultuous ...now they have a daughter "Willow"... 










I think this is one of the reasons Temperament opposites can be beneficial... In our Marriage, I am surely the more particular in a # of areas ..Him... he's just REALLY easy going...just happily goes with the flow... so long as it's not hurting anything & if I'm happy.. he's happy.. 

When you mentioned laying out your clothes after work on the banister- and this sets him off - like "going crazy"... it seems such an over reaction.. in the scheme of small things.. it's funny what people's pet peeves are.. and how vocal , or upset we can get over certain things.. that bulking of heads.. (we could have an interesting thread on that one!)


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## Faithful Wife

Aw thanks SA, that was sweet. You do get the gist of it I think. See my next post as well....


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## Faithful Wife

john117 said:


> All I am saying is that where there is a will there is a way if egos don't get in the way.


Alright john...I will explain things to you in a more civil way, because I'm totally awesome like that, and I think you will get where I'm coming from.

You are right and SA is right in that there is something wrong with both my husband and I...we are both stubborn a**holes.

But we are also both passionate, loving, and humble with each other. We are highly capable of intimacy...but maybe there is just something too off in our personalities to be "too close" to someone else. The proximity is what has caused the fighting we used to do, which I realize now, only after we have stopped living together.

There is so much more drama than necessary when we live together and I am half of the problem there. I guess that only someone else as intense as we are can love us, but then we can't stand to actually live with that person because we end up just clashing so much. Real, raw intimacy causes us both to soar with joy and pleasure...and then also to crash and become territorial and stubborn. 

It is not just the household stuff, we have other differences as well. And for some reason, even though we've always had these silly fights over things that most people probably never have issues with, we never wanted "out". We kept trying all this time, and we have tried many things. We have always sincerely been scratching our heads wondering why we don't fall out of love since we have these dumb conflicts that should harm our core relationship.

But it just never does. We love each other so much through and through. 

When we separated, it was a big hunk of drama and it was very painful and difficult, john. After all this effort we have made over the years, we did just finally say wow, maybe we can't make it, no matter how much we love each other? It was a very difficult decision to make, to realize we just have to get real space from each other at this point.

But as I described in an earlier post, something amazing happened. We both just immediately became our highest selves, and our love for each other rose to the top of all the rest of the stuff. Keep in mind, I have already admitted we are both stubborn a**holes, so it all went down in a way that could have ended us....mostly thanks to me. I handled things very badly. But we both just immediately became forgiving and cooperative. We truly want only what is best for each other and want to help each other through anything difficult that happens. We quickly found that we had nothing more to fight about. We had forgiven and moved toward reconciliation all in one big swoop.

I get it now. I take responsibility for my part in this equation. But that means a lot of good things as well as the stubborn a**hole parts. I can love really big. I am capable of very deep intimacy and devotion. But I'm also a bit nuts, and my husband is, too.

Maybe that's why the sex is so good? >


----------



## Faithful Wife

Deejo said:


> For those in the full blush of youth and that brilliance of love ... they are going to opt for the mainstream. Because that is their expectation. As it was ours at one point.


Yes it definitely was my expectation at one point, and I do wish my H and I had met when we were young, had a dozen kids and lived happily ever after. My original fairy tale I told myself would have been really sweet had I been able to live it...this is why I have told SA before that I do envy her circumstances.

But there is something very romantic going on in my life right now. Much more exciting and unexpected than anything I had in my original fairy tales. I am amazed at how far our love is taking us. We should have been broken up by now, but we are not even close to it. There's so much water under the bridge that we have lovingly moved past. We are much better people than I thought we were. Until we were tested in this way, we did not have an opportunity to show each other just exactly HOW devoted we really are.

We don't want anyone else. It really doesn't get any more romantic than that.


----------



## john117

See? A lot easier when the details come out.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Faithful Wife said:


> But as I described in an earlier post, something amazing happened. We both just immediately became our highest selves, and our love for each other rose to the top of all the rest of the stuff.* Keep in mind, I have already admitted we are both stubborn a**holes,* so it all went down in a way that could have ended us....mostly thanks to me. I handled things very badly. *But we both just immediately became forgiving and cooperative. We truly want only what is best for each other and want to help each other through anything difficult that happens*. We quickly found that we had nothing more to fight about. We had forgiven and moved toward reconciliation all in one big swoop.


You gotta love it... when one can outright ADMIT they have been an A-hole... it goes a long way.. I'd like to get my hands on some of these balloons...I've had my moments over the years! 












> *Faithful Wife said *: *but maybe there is just something too off in our personalities to be "too close" to someone else. The proximity is what has caused the fighting we used to do, which I realize now, only after we have stopped living together.*


 Curious question... was it like this no matter who you shared a house with.. or others in your past - was it easier somehow.. maybe a sibling, best friend/ college roommate...early 1st marriage..where it just worked ....the normal tiffs but not knocking heads.. or you are just one who needs that space, no matter who it is... that's what's comfortable to you.. you prefer it this way.. 

Or maybe you are just incompatible in these areas... It happens !! 

My Husband's father came from a family where you could eat off the floors..immaculate houses ... imagine getting his Mother pregnant -marrying her, moving in.... and ...well.. her side seems to have a "hoarding" gene or something.. every family member a Junk collector... wasn't so bad in the beginning.. but then....you can't imagine a couple more opposite over these 2... 

They remained married to the end. ..and although they didn't get another house.. I bet they both would have smiled over that one :grin2: (if he could have afforded it!).. he was embarrassed to have his Family members visit them even!!... 

What played down was... He didn't spend much time at home... he hung out with his Guy friends A LOT.....when he was home... their biggest contention was HER JUNK.. it got to the point, if she left, he was out there BURNING HER STUFF.. ..then she'd be bi*ching over this... then she stopped going places..

Now had his Dad married a woman with decent housekeeping ways.. I bet he would have been home & enjoying his family a lot more.. that was the shame of it.. I realize you said it's more than just house keeping particulars..but even those alone.. it can put a fork into a couple.. I don't believe they had a good sex life either... likely due to the resentment on both ends.. I know his dad had a stash of GIRLY dvd's in another room ...my Husband told me..


----------



## MEM2020

THe post below - is why it's not just gonna work - it's gonna work really well.

And when you eventually reach the point that one of you needs to be ummm - pushed in their wheel chair - the pusher is going to flex more on this type stuff out of compassion and the pushee is going to flex more from gratitude. 

For now though - you've found the Goldilocks zone and you ought to stay there. 




Faithful Wife said:


> Alright john...I will explain things to you in a more civil way, because I'm totally awesome like that, and I think you will get where I'm coming from.
> 
> You are right and SA is right in that there is something wrong with both my husband and I...we are both stubborn a**holes.
> 
> But we are also both passionate, loving, and humble with each other. We are highly capable of intimacy...but maybe there is just something too off in our personalities to be "too close" to someone else. The proximity is what has caused the fighting we used to do, which I realize now, only after we have stopped living together.
> 
> There is so much more drama than necessary when we live together and I am half of the problem there. I guess that only someone else as intense as we are can love us, but then we can't stand to actually live with that person because we end up just clashing so much. Real, raw intimacy causes us both to soar with joy and pleasure...and then also to crash and become territorial and stubborn.
> 
> It is not just the household stuff, we have other differences as well. And for some reason, even though we've always had these silly fights over things that most people probably never have issues with, we never wanted "out". We kept trying all this time, and we have tried many things. We have always sincerely been scratching our heads wondering why we don't fall out of love since we have these dumb conflicts that should harm our core relationship.
> 
> But it just never does. We love each other so much through and through.
> 
> When we separated, it was a big hunk of drama and it was very painful and difficult, john. After all this effort we have made over the years, we did just finally say wow, maybe we can't make it, no matter how much we love each other? It was a very difficult decision to make, to realize we just have to get real space from each other at this point.
> 
> But as I described in an earlier post, something amazing happened. We both just immediately became our highest selves, and our love for each other rose to the top of all the rest of the stuff. Keep in mind, I have already admitted we are both stubborn a**holes, so it all went down in a way that could have ended us....mostly thanks to me. I handled things very badly. But we both just immediately became forgiving and cooperative. We truly want only what is best for each other and want to help each other through anything difficult that happens. We quickly found that we had nothing more to fight about. We had forgiven and moved toward reconciliation all in one big swoop.
> 
> I get it now. I take responsibility for my part in this equation. But that means a lot of good things as well as the stubborn a**hole parts. I can love really big. I am capable of very deep intimacy and devotion. But I'm also a bit nuts, and my husband is, too.
> 
> Maybe that's why the sex is so good? >


----------



## manfromlamancha

Not entirely sure why this thread was started other than to start a debate which is fine, except that in a debate, you will get differing points of view which normally are defended eloquently.

Defending one's point of view with vitriol is not OK by the HRM's generally accepted set of rules and hence I am going to take a step back from this after this post).

Many topics seem to be under debate here starting with the definition of what a marriage is, the pros and cons of living together with the one that you love (most of the time), whether it is offensive to make use of collective wisdom and one's social and theological references (religious or otherwise) to support one's thinking in this debate, to name a few.

It has descended into researching others' past threads and posts to launch "counter attacks" when feeling threatened, which is not productive.

FaithfulWife - I did not misrepresent what you said - I went back and re-read what you said to see if I misunderstood and I stand by what I said.

I know that you are in fact "married" but so are many that are simply awaiting a "green card" of some kind. 

As for not being able to get along on how to keep the house tidy or irritating each other when living together (sometimes viewed as not being able to compromise, communicate, respect each other's space, overlook weaknesses etc), many will debate that this is in fact what really being married is about.

You offer your solution which works for you - great! Again many will argue (debate) that you don't need to be married to live like that.

I cannot imagine a young couple newly married trying to start a family living like that. And as for raising kids in that environment, while there are many split families due to divorce, the collective wisdom is that it is not ideal or even good for them in comparison to their parents living together while loving and expressing their love for each other.

On the other hand, I know of many older (often professional) couples (not married) who are now set in their ways, have already done their "family thing", manage their own money, live in their own houses (complete with their style of decor and choice of breakfast cereal), love and respect each other, have wild monkey sex (most of the time), are generally faithful to each other (but are free to not be should things cease to work out for them to the standard they expect) that live like you and your husband. Would I call them typical married couples? No. They are committed boyfriends and girlfriends who have someone now and are hoping to have someone to grow old with (which many times, turns out to be their biggest fear).

I respect John's views on marriage - he can be cranky sometimes (I suspect that he is an ex fellow European and that may be why). :smile2:

I respect Conan's openness to understand your approach better and reference it against a conventional wisdom contained in the bible - to try and reduce this to being offensive and compare it with "goat worship" can be viewed as offensive and not polite (leave alone wise) - I can only hope you did not intend to be offensive (as I really do not believe that he intended to be).

Now I really do believe that you seem to be well grounded in your relationship and if that is your definition of a good marriage then good for you. I wish you continued happiness.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

manfromlamancha said:


> I know that you are in fact "married" but so are many that are simply awaiting a "green card" of some kind.
> 
> As for not being able to get along on how to keep the house tidy or irritating each other when living together (sometimes viewed as not being able to compromise, communicate, respect each other's space, overlook weaknesses etc), *many will debate that this is in fact what really being married is about.*


 I would say you are right about this.. many of those who overcame in certain areas have shared such stories of struggle.. and eventual solution...Conflict within the home - who doesn't have their share ? 

I am not one would wants to change too much about the Traditional marriage set up - none of these scenarios bother me per say.. but for it to become mainstream.. my 1st thought was rather Practical ..."My Lord...will there be enough real estate [email protected]#" 

I am the complete opposite of FW.. I would HATE HATE HATE to live alone...this would be me >> :frown2:... I love having someone to hold at night.. the bed is cold when he works night shift even...When I go out with friends , he can't even sleep until I get home..he's told me this... I also love a full house of kids... they bring excitement, bantering -yeah even with the fighting ...love when their friends are over spending the night even...so long as they are good kids, my thought is - the more the merrier!.. 

I do feel, however, that a couple almost needs to be compatible in what's REALLY IMPORTANT to them (FW has the sex down)... we all WANT WHAT WE WANT, don't we? This could be called "being selfish" but if we're with another who* selfishly enjoys* similar or the same, then instead of being "struggle".. it's shared happiness.

Example: One thing I wouldn't be able to handle is a husband working out of town A LOT, weeks here.. weeks there... too much time away -I'd be a "lonely desperate housewife"..even with a Job..I'd miss him TOO MUCH....I'd bi*ch whine & complain about this... I'd rather have less money & more time together... (he feels the same)....Temporary is different...there is a count down to "back to normal" but a way of life....never...but others are OK with it.. 

Outside of those BIG areas where it's almost imperative to be on the same page...hopefully in the rest... we can meet each other half way.. we may fall down, loose it.... but keep working at it.. We always hear others say "Marriage is WORK"... isn't this what they are talking about... 












> *You offer your solution which works for you - great! Again many will argue (debate) that you don't need to be married to live like that*.


 I have an uncle who, him & his GF have been together a good 20 yrs now.. they spoke of marriage.. just never happened.. they both love where they live...that's why -he's told me this.... They were both divorced also.. this too surely plays a hand in just staying on as they have...once burned.. twice shy ..... a case can be made.. we DO get "set in their ways" as we get older.. (Probably more pliable in those younger yrs growing/ discovering together).. With my Uncle...will the able bodied one sell their house or take the other in when they need their a$$ wiped.. It's yet to be seen.. 



> *I respect Conan's openness to understand your approach better and reference it against a conventional wisdom contained in the bible - to try and reduce this to being offensive and compare it with "goat worship" can be viewed as offensive and not polite (leave alone wise) - I can only hope you did not intend to be offensive (as I really do not believe that he intended to be)*.


 I must admit reading some of the exchanges here.. I was thinking.. if one is not supportive, better not touch this thread !...Though it may not be my cup of tea or what I would want for our children... still I'm open to hearing others stories...and how they deal....


----------



## Faithful Wife

manfromlamancha said:


> Now I really do believe that you seem to be well grounded in your relationship and if that is your definition of a good marriage then good for you. I wish you continued happiness.


Thank you...and keep in mind, I'm not suggesting my exact arrangement for anyone else. I know it won't work for a lot of others...but there are other models of marriage that won't work for me, either. I think we should bring some of these models out as examples when they work for people. Just examples to show that other models CAN work, not that any one other model should be the only way. I think the traditional model isn't working for too many people, and then we have a lot of divorce which really sucks. (Meaning the process itself sucks for the individuals involved). 

As for my words with Conan....I simply don't think it is fair to push Christians values on anyone else. I am not a goat worshipper, but if I was, I am sure he would not want my values pushed on him either, even though he says that wouldn't have offended him...I don't believe that. Religions are a very personal thing and I do have my own, one which doesn't mesh well with Christianity's rules.


----------



## Faithful Wife

SimplyAmorous said:


> Curious question... was it like this no matter who you shared a house with.. or others in your past - was it easier somehow.. maybe a sibling, best friend/ college roommate...early 1st marriage..where it just worked ....the normal tiffs but not knocking heads.. or you are just one who needs that space, no matter who it is... that's what's comfortable to you.. you prefer it this way..


No, neither of us have experienced this quite this way before...it seems we are some kind of powder keg combination together. But we aren't probably as volatile as I have made it sound here, either. And most of that is in the past pretty far at this point. 

And the majority of the time, we are calm, affectionate and loving...so it isn't like we were at each other's throats all the time. 

It is hard to describe a dynamic from the outside.


----------



## Holland

A discussion on other than traditional types of marriages is a good thing. But FW you must of known there was a possibility for flaming?

Anyway that aside it is an interesting discussion and it would be good to have it without agro because yeah the traditional model is proving to be a bit of a disaster for many.

I have what I know is a very left of center POV of marriage in that I think it should be a renewable contract. We set ourselves up for failure by getting into a life long contract that has only a 50% chance of success. Where else in life would people take such a gamble with the rest of their lives? And of that 50% that do make it till death, how many actually die happy?

Each to their own, as long as you are not hurting anyone then what difference does it make to your neighbours or to the rest of the world if you and your husband/SO have a two household family?


----------



## bfree

FW, what a fantastic and interesting thread! Like Conan I am a Christian however I try to be completely open and understanding of all life choices (not a criticism Conan, lol.) What a concept huh? Anyway I am extremely intrigued but your and your husband's relationship choice. My wife and I love to live together. We both do things that drive the other crazy at times but we are usually able to work through these speed bumps and the ones we cannot seem to work through we choose to just accept as part of each other's greater whole. That being said we also are both extremely independent, self reliant and self assured. I could not only survive but (given time) would thrive if I found myself suddenly without my wife for any given period of time. The same can be said about my wife. She is a strong independent woman who would have no problems getting along without me. Although we don't plan it we both value our time alone and when it occurs organically we value the opportunity to look inward and enjoy more individual activities. So what I'm trying to say in my usual long winded way is that although we enjoy our current marital style of living together and occupying each other's space I think we'd be just as content and happy if we were to follow the lifestyle choice you and your husband have adopted. And btw, I don't think you and your husband are stubborn a-holes. On the contrary I think you are probably strong independent well adjusted individuals who have found a pathway that allows you each to express the maximum love for each other.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Faithful Wife said:


> Conan, I will accept that I am sometimes offended when I shouldn't be. But in this case I am offended by your words even though you meant no offense.


You're going to get leprosy!


----------



## Wolf1974

I had never heard of an arrangement like this before. I heard of separate bathrooms, separate bedrooms but not households. It wouldn't work for me FW but if you are happy and your marriage works this way rock on With it !!


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## GusPolinski

I've actually read about this before. Very interesting. Wouldn't work for us but still... it's pretty fascinating nonetheless.


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## Faithful Wife

Holland said:


> A discussion on other than traditional types of marriages is a good thing. But FW you must of known there was a possibility for flaming?


Actually, I'm a little surprised that the bible came up and the words "that's not really a marriage". I did expect a lot of that wouldn't work for me, I don't know how you will be able to trust each other, this might be the first step toward the end, and similar. 

But the biblical stuff or the judgmental stuff, no I did not expect that because, what in the world does it have to do with morals or religion that we simply don't live together? :scratchhead:


----------



## always_alone

Deejo said:


> For those in the full blush of youth and that brilliance of love ... they are going to opt for the mainstream. Because that is their expectation. As it was ours at one point.


Not necessarily. For sure, it is called the mainstream for a reason. But not all of us are mainstream or inclined to think that way.

Personally, I was never inclined to think love and marriage necessarily had anything at all to do with each other.


----------



## NobodySpecial

I think that love is more important than addresses, personally.


----------



## ConanHub

Faithful Wife said:


> Thank you...and keep in mind, I'm not suggesting my exact arrangement for anyone else. I know it won't work for a lot of others...but there are other models of marriage that won't work for me, either. I think we should bring some of these models out as examples when they work for people. Just examples to show that other models CAN work, not that any one other model should be the only way. I think the traditional model isn't working for too many people, and then we have a lot of divorce which really sucks. (Meaning the process itself sucks for the individuals involved).
> 
> As for my words with Conan....I simply don't think it is fair to push Christians values on anyone else. I am not a goat worshipper, but if I was, I am sure he would not want my values pushed on him either, even though he says that wouldn't have offended him...I don't believe that. Religions are a very personal thing and I do have my own, one which doesn't mesh well with Christianity's rules.


FW. You are going against your own rules here. I am honest.

I have told you the truth here. I was applying your situation to my culture. Not the reverse.

Are you saying that I am not being honest here?

What about the men who don't listen to what you and other women say they find attractive?

It really frustrates you when someone doesn't listen to what you say about yourself. Are you doing the same to me?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Deejo

always_alone said:


> Not necessarily. For sure, it is called the mainstream for a reason. But not all of us are mainstream or inclined to think that way.
> 
> Personally, I was never inclined to think love and marriage necessarily had anything at all to do with each other.


Oh ...

You mean there are outliers?

Fancy that?

For all of our high mindedness about out of the box thinking, there is a reason we think the way we do.

And it's usually a result of the box we're in, even if we don't see it as such.

My point was simple. Make this FW's first marriage and she and Sex God are twenty-something's, and this arrangement isn't even on their radar.

That's not a criticism.

It's just a fact.


----------



## Faithful Wife

ConanHub said:


> Are you saying that I am not being honest here?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm talking specifically about the "offended" comments. If I was what your religion considers a satantic priestess, and if I told you that I was going to check my satanic bible to see if what you are doing is sinful in our cult or not, I simply don't believe you wouldn't be offended. Especially if, let's say, in my cult there was a rule that couples should not be monogamous, or something like that which is totally against your own values. 

I'm not doing that though, so there's no real way to test this out, is there? I'm not saying you are being dishonest, I'm just saying I do think it would bother you if someone who has values which you don't agree with started talking to you about applying THEIR values to YOUR relationship choice. Of course it is easy enough to say "do whatever you want" and say it wouldn't offend you...but I really think it would offend you. Again, we just can't test it because I'm not in a cult and I'm not going to apply some satantic or non-monogamy rules to your relationship and then tell you I have to see if it lines up. Do you not get what I'm saying?


----------



## norajane

always_alone said:


> Not necessarily. For sure, it is called the mainstream for a reason. But not all of us are mainstream or inclined to think that way.
> 
> Personally, I was never inclined to think love and marriage necessarily had anything at all to do with each other.


I think the stats these days show people are waiting longer to get married, and there are a lot more couples who choose to live together without marriage or before marriage. I think the mainstream is becoming a smaller group, and some alternatives are becoming more mainstream. Living together wasn't ok when I was a kid, but became more acceptable to the point today that a lot of people wouldn't get married without living together first.

Younger couple probably wouldn't go the way of marrying and living separately (unless it's military or other work like that). But those couples who would be most likely to consider an alternative arrangement for their relationship, likely wouldn't get married without living together first anyway. And if it doesn't work then, they break up instead of marrying.


----------



## always_alone

Deejo said:


> Oh ...
> 
> You mean there are outliers?
> 
> Fancy that?
> 
> For all of our high mindedness about out of the box thinking, there is a reason we think the way we do.
> 
> And it's usually a result of the box we're in, even if we don't see it as such.
> 
> My point was simple. Make this FW's first marriage and she and Sex God are twenty-something's, and this arrangement isn't even on their radar.
> 
> That's not a criticism.
> 
> It's just a fact.


,

I really love it when people paint me as an "outlier" whenever I mention something outside of the mainstream, but will later (or earlier, as it happens here) chastize me for thinking I might be "a precious snowflake." I wanna ask: which is it? If have to be an "outlier", then I also claim the right to special snowflake status.

But let's unpack this a bit: The term outlier is usually reserved for those things so way outside the norm they can be discounted. And in modern society, statistics very clearly show there is nothing "outlier" about people who are choosing alternatives to traditional marriage. Fewer and fewer people are marrying at all (it may even be below 50% now), and fewer and fewer are having children. And people who are doing these things are older and older --not exactly the starry-eyed teens of yesteryear.

I know married couples who live and work in different countries, and only see each other on holidays, couples where one person travels for weeks on end, or where one will live in the city, close to their work, and go home for weekends. Military deployments will separate couples for months ...

Some 20% of the population is gay. One couple I know started off gay, then became "traditional" heterosexual when one of them switched genders. I don't know the stats on poly and other alternatives, but they are hardly insignificant. It's getting to the point that statistically speaking, there are more outliers than there are "normals". 

Living arrangements like FW's may not be mainstream, but they do happen, and have been for decades. We aren't all Stepford sisters and brothers with the same traditional dreams.

And that's also a fact.


----------



## Deejo

Your experience and attitude makes you an outlier. And I never said being an outlier was bad, or that mainstream is good.

I know 2 couples who maintain separate households. Both have previously been married.


----------



## Holland

Faithful Wife said:


> *Actually, I'm a little surprised that the bible came up and the words "*that's not really a marriage". I did expect a lot of that wouldn't work for me, I don't know how you will be able to trust each other, this might be the first step toward the end, and similar.
> 
> But the biblical stuff or the judgmental stuff, no I did not expect that because, what in the world does it have to do with morals or religion that we simply don't live together? :scratchhead:


Well being a Heathen, the Bible stuff always annoys me. I am accountable to my own values which FWIW are pretty high.


----------



## always_alone

Deejo said:


> Your experience and attitude makes you an outlier. And I never said being an outlier was bad, or that mainstream is good.
> 
> I know 2 couples who maintain separate households. Both have previously been married.


And because it's your experience that makes it mainstream? :scratchhead:

I mean, you'lll completely discount all of the couples who choose never to get married or live together, all of the ones who spend the week, or months living apart apart because of work, or other lifestyle choices, because ...why exactly? 

It isn't an issue of good or bad. Outliers are data points that are said to have no value for analysis of the trend. And in this day and age, especially, I really don't think it reasonable to discount alternative marriages as having no value for our understsnding of relationships. As I said in my last post, it's getting to the point where our "traditional" model isn't even a majority.


----------



## Deejo

always_alone said:


> And because it's your experience that makes it mainstream? :scratchhead:
> 
> I mean, you'lll completely discount all of the couples who choose never to get married or live together, all of the ones who spend the week, or months living apart apart because of work, or other lifestyle choices, because ...why exactly?
> 
> It isn't an issue of good or bad. Outliers are data points that are said to have no value for analysis of the trend. And in this day and age, especially, I really don't think it reasonable to discount alternative marriages as having no value for our understsnding of relationships. As I said in my last post, it's getting to the point where our "traditional" model isn't even a majority.


You like to argue.

Even when people agree with you.

The wedding industrial complex would like a word with you.

At some point. In a majority of the minds of young adults in western culture. They imagine marrying, having children, living under the same roof, and growing old together. 

We buried my uncle this past weekend. Married to my father's sister for over 60 years. Seven children. Strong Catholic family. Six are married, none of them divorced. Some married for over 20 years. Their children are getting married. 

Marriage is indeed changing. But it isn't going anywhere, anytime soon.

Traditional remains the norm for those who value tradition.

I did value traditional marriage at one time. More than likely, most of us do at some point. 

Now? For myself? FW's choice makes sense to me. In another 20 years when both are approaching 70 with fixed incomes? Not so much.


----------



## always_alone

Deejo said:


> You like to argue.
> 
> Even when people agree with you.
> 
> The wedding industrial complex would like a word with you.
> 
> At some point. In a majority of the minds of young adults in western culture. They imagine marrying, having children, living under the same roof, and growing old together.
> 
> We buried my uncle this past weekend. Married to my father's sister for over 60 years. Seven children. Strong Catholic family. Six are married, none of them divorced. Some married for over 20 years. Their children are getting married.
> 
> Marriage is indeed changing. But it isn't going anywhere, anytime soon.
> 
> Traditional remains the norm for those who value tradition.
> 
> I did value traditional marriage at one time. More than likely, most of us do at some point.
> 
> Now? For myself? FW's choice makes sense to me. In another 20 years when both are approaching 70 with fixed incomes? Not so much.


Are you agreeing with me? I mean, sure, traditional remains the norm for those who value tradition. But how many people value tradition?

The Catholics, for example, are very much in decline in terms of church attendance, identification with the faith, and so on. This is true internationally. Wouldn't want to base all my assessments of relationships and marriages on what they choose to do. 


Record Share of Americans Have Never Married | Pew Research Center



> Recent survey data from the Pew Research Center finds a public that is deeply divided over the role marriage plays in society. Survey respondents were asked which of the following statements came closer to their own views: Society is better off if people make marriage and having children a priority, or society is just as well off if people have priorities other than marriage and children. Some 46% of adults chose the first statement, while 50% chose the second.



Obviously there are still a lot of young people who share your (old) romantic and idyllic dream. But the numbers who don't are steadily rising. Indeed, isn't it an article of faith around here that for the most part young men would much rather the playboy lifestyle than settling down?


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## Deejo

always_alone said:


> Are you agreeing with me?


Of course I'm agreeing with you. When do I not agree with you? :smile2:




always_alone said:


> Indeed, isn't it an article of faith around here that for the most part young men would much rather the playboy lifestyle than settling down?


I don't know about article of faith, but yes, there have been links put up a number of times about women wondering where all the good men are (for marrying), or the fact that young men are either putting marriage off, or forgoing it altogether.

I believe in many Nordic countries, that young, nuclear families do not consist of a married mom and dad.

Marriage is changing without a doubt. I'm still for whatever works and serves the individuals within it.

Are you married or common law? I always presumed you were in the U.S. but apparently that may not be the case.


----------



## TheCuriousWife

Fascinating.

I will admit, I would probably enjoy living alone. I'm pretty particular, and bossy, and enjoy my freedom.

But I also couldn't imagine living separate from my husband. I enjoy waking up with him next to me in the middle of the night, or having morning coffee together. 


What is most hard for me to grasp is how two people can be so in love, but yet separate over what I see as trivial things, such as being messy. 

I have to agree with SA, that you sound like PINK and Carey. (PINK is my fave) Just two passionate, and strong willed people, that love each other, but want to kill each other at the same time. lol. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsmUOdmm02A

Love this song. I feel it sums you guys up pretty well.


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## Faithful Wife

It is hard for us to understand, too CW. We have always been very confused by why we can't figure out some of the things that others easily figure out. But then on the other hand, we have an easy time with our sexual life, while others have a hard time figuring that one out. To us, we don't understand why that one is so hard for other people, you know?

Love is complicated. I don't think people are necessarily good roommates with each other just because they are in love. I would not have thought I would want it this way either and for years we tried it the traditional way. I'm finally seeing what we are good at together and what we are not in a much better light now that we are living apart.


----------



## GusPolinski

Faithful Wife said:


> It is hard for us to understand, too CW. We have always been very confused by why we can't figure out some of the things that others easily figure out. But then on the other hand, we have an easy time with our sexual life, while others have a hard time figuring that one out. To us, we don't understand why that one is so hard for other people, you know?
> 
> Love is complicated. I don't think people are necessarily good roommates with each other just because they are in love. I would not have thought I would want it this way either and for years we tried it the traditional way. I'm finally seeing what we are good at together and what we are not in a much better light now that we are living apart.


I was thinking about this earlier, and I can't help but wonder about whether or not anyone has ever designed or built a house w/ this sort of arrangement in mind.

Maybe something like a duplex but w/ a common area...? Obviously, though, that wouldn't necessarily address any potential disputes over how the yard is kept.

Still... pretty interesting.


----------



## GusPolinski

GusPolinski said:


> I was thinking about this earlier, and I can't help but wonder about whether or not anyone has ever designed or built a house w/ this sort of arrangement in mind.
> 
> Maybe something like a duplex but w/ a common area...? Obviously, though, that wouldn't necessarily address any potential disputes over how the yard is kept.
> 
> Still... pretty interesting.


Might also be somewhat difficult from a resale perspective.


----------



## Faithful Wife

GusPolinski said:


> Might also be somewhat difficult from a resale perspective.


Nothing some new walls and doors couldn't fix.

I have been looking at properties that have all kinds of different configurations. I'm not quite ready to sell yet so I haven't done it too seriously, but there are some properties that could work for us.

If we are on the same lot, he's going to do the yard work, I can guarantee it....he loves that stuff.


----------



## Wolf1974

Faithful Wife said:


> It is hard for us to understand, too CW. We have always been very confused by why we can't figure out some of the things that others easily figure out. But then on the other hand, we have an easy time with our sexual life, while others have a hard time figuring that one out. To us, we don't understand why that one is so hard for other people, you know?
> 
> Love is complicated. *I don't think people are necessarily good roommates with each other just because they are in love*. I would not have thought I would want it this way either and for years we tried it the traditional way. I'm finally seeing what we are good at together and what we are not in a much better light now that we are living apart.



I agree. I think you make a good point. It's almost like a love language. You don't feel that living together enhances your relationship. By definition living together would be one of mine so more a big deal for me than you. But think of the fun you get to make midnight booty calls on one another lol:wink2:


----------



## GusPolinski

Faithful Wife said:


> Nothing some new walls and doors couldn't fix.


True, but there are some architectural decisions that are just plain difficult to surmount. For example, I've yet to see a garage-to-living-space conversion result in a space that looked or felt quite like it belonged as a part of the house.

Still, this seems like a pretty cool idea to me. I could handle separate living spaces (though, more often than not, I'm sure we'd choose to spend our time together rather than apart), and even separate kitchens and bathrooms, but there's just no way that I could handle sleeping apart from my wife every night. I've done quite a lot of that while travelling for work over the past several years (last year in particular), and I've never enjoyed it.



Faithful Wife said:


> I have been looking at properties that have all kinds of different configurations. I'm not quite ready to sell yet so I haven't done it too seriously, but there are some properties that could work for us.
> 
> If we are on the same lot, he's going to do the yard work, I can guarantee it....he loves that stuff.


Well, I was referring specifically to a complaint that you'd mentioned about the way that he kept the side yard or stacked something in the side yard, etc.


----------



## Fozzy

FW--I say good on you for finding something that works. There are a LOT of happily married people where one spouse has a different address. Many of them in Afghanistan for example. Geography doesn't add to or take away from the capacity to love.

I'm curious--do you two have keys to each other's places and drop in when you feel like it or do you call ahead? Like if decides he wants to come over are you ever like "nah, not tonight--Game of Thrones is on"


----------



## Faithful Wife

Fozzy said:


> FW--I say good on you for finding something that works. There are a LOT of happily married people where one spouse has a different address. Many of them in Afghanistan for example. Geography doesn't add to or take away from the capacity to love.
> 
> I'm curious--do you two have keys to each other's places and drop in when you feel like it or do you call ahead? Like if decides he wants to come over are you ever like "nah, not tonight--Game of Thrones is on"


I don't have a key to his place but I could have one if I wanted one. He has keys to our house and knows he is welcome at any time. I would be at his too, but none of my stuff is there so I have no reason to go there if he's not there.


----------



## Faithful Wife

GusPolinski said:


> True, but there are some architectural decisions that are just plain difficult to surmount. For example, I've yet to see a garage-to-living-space conversion result in a space that looked or felt quite like it belonged as a part of the house.
> 
> Still, this seems like a pretty cool idea to me. I could handle separate living spaces (though, more often than not, I'm sure we'd choose to spend our time together rather than apart), and even separate kitchens and bathrooms, but there's just no way that I could handle sleeping apart from my wife every night. I've done quite a lot of that while travelling for work over the past several years (last year in particular), and I've never enjoyed it.
> 
> Well, I was referring specifically to a complaint that you'd mentioned about the way that he kept the side yard or stacked something in the side yard, etc.


In our area we have a lot of good looking garage mother-in-law homes on local properties...I actually checked into this company about getting plans for one....it wasn't quite right for our situation but I liked a lot of these.

https://www.thegarageplanshop.com/

Yeah...the stuff on the side of the house...that would still be an issue...but I think I could handle that one by itself. It was just an example of the kinds of things we do that the other one doesn't like.


----------



## bestyet2be

Faithful Wife said:


> My original fairy tale I told myself would have been really sweet had I been able to live it...this is why I have told SA before that I do envy her circumstances.


I wonder the exact nature of your envy? My guess is you are *permanently ambivalent* on this point.

Since I know not everything in SA's life is so idyllic, perhaps she'll forgive being characatured, if she brings to mind a line from the movie The Prince of Tides,

"There are families who live their entire lives without a single thing of interest happening to them. I've always envied those families."

(Actually I don't remember it as that great of a movie, but it's been quite a while....)

Anyway, my point is I suspect that while you really do envy her clarity (and all the other things) she represents, there are very good reasons you cherish the grittier components of your personality, and that while you actually could become more that way, you choose not to. Kind of a "yin and yang"?


----------



## heartsbeating

FW - I've only read the first page.

Different strokes for different folks, as the saying goes. 

I think if this is a way for you both to be content, then that's wonderful.


----------



## heartsbeating

I've lived with my husband for 20 years now. I haven't lived alone. It's funny but when he's away for work, a different side of my personality emerges. It turns out, I become very routine and meticulous. When he's back, I'm more relaxed. Living together has, for the most part, felt very easy. It works for us. We lived together for many years before marrying, mostly as we just didn't feel the real need to marry. It doesn't change the love or commitment; in my eyes at least. Some others didn't understand this. It wasn't for them to understand though.

Keep us posted with how things go.


----------



## Faithful Wife

bestyet2be said:


> I wonder the exact nature of your envy? My guess is you are *permanently ambivalent* on this point.


I think it is fairly common for young people to dream of meeting and kissing their first love, then getting married, having babies and living happily ever after. I really never thought I'd be divorced from my first H (though he was not the love of my life, I just never wanted to be divorced or even thought about it)....divorce really sucks though when you've been through it with kids.

So that's what I envy of SA's experience. It would be nice to have just met the right guy at the right time and have it all work out.

However...I have had a lot of amazing experiences I never would have had if I had lived SA's lifestyle, and I have no regrets. I can still envy her life without regretting mine. A lot of people envy my life too (for reasons not obvious at TAM but are seen by people who know me) so it goes around like that, I think.


----------



## john117

FW, life is what happens when you make other plans. If you stay with the same partner for 20 or 30 years change is inevitable, one or both.

The trick is how to handle change and move forward. And add experiences. 

I recently connected on Facebook with a bunch of old friends from my village. Thru them I was able to find some of the women we, ehem, learned the tricks of the trade with many decades ago. They are all very good looking, married, etc. And thanks to EU farm subsidies quite wealthy., but as you said, would I have the same experiences had I taken that path? Not likely.

It's all a compromise.


----------



## Anonymous07

heartsbeating said:


> Different strokes for different folks, as the saying goes.
> 
> I think if this is a way for you both to be content, then that's wonderful.


:iagree:

If it works well, then continue on. My uncle and his log term gf do this, with everything separate, but they are still a couple. As time goes on though, it's gotten more complicated for them, so I don't know how long their relationship will last. 

I personally do not like living alone, so I could not do it, but you have to do what works for you.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Anonymous07 said:


> :iagree:
> 
> If it works well, then continue on. My uncle and his log term gf do this, with everything separate, but they are still a couple. As time goes on though, it's gotten more complicated for them, so I don't know how long their relationship will last.
> 
> I personally do not like living alone, so I could not do it, but you have to do what works for you.


There are some parts of living alone I am really enjoying...other parts, no so much.

Shortly my mother is moving in with me however, and that will be nice. I love her, and am looking forward to having some time with her while she still has a high quality of life...even just the little things like watching a movie together or staying up late and talking. My adult son is also going to move in for short time between apartments, to help us with the move and the yard work and some other tasks we need help with. It will be nice to have some time with him, too.


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## SimplyAmorous

Faithful Wife said:


> I think it is fairly common for young people to dream of meeting and kissing their first love, then getting married, having babies and living happily ever after. I really never thought I'd be divorced from my first H (though he was not the love of my life, I just never wanted to be divorced or even thought about it)....divorce really sucks though when you've been through it with kids.
> 
> So that's what I envy of SA's experience. It would be nice to have just met the right guy at the right time and have it all work out.
> 
> However..*.I have had a lot of amazing experiences I never would have had if I had lived SA's lifestyle, and I have no regrets. I can still envy her life without regretting mine. * A lot of people envy my life too (for reasons not obvious at TAM but are seen by people who know me) so it goes around like that, I think.


I've never seen the Prince of Tides.. it appears for many ...the romantic ideal danced in their heads *until* they were deeply Hurt / blindsided by a 1st love... after this they will say they LOST ALL THAT... grew up...some feel it was the best thing that happened to them even.. almost like Eve taking the APPLE.... to push things forward.... 

We all have dreams we long to fulfill -how we envision a life... some want to travel the world, hitch hike across the country even, build a career....all I wanted was Love & Family...Even our friends in real life.. they *didn't* want AS MANY kids as we hoped for...nor would they envy our driveway in the winter months!...it's funny what we may envy *in part*.. but surely not the whole...... 

I've only been on an Airplane once (visiting my Mother in my teens), husband never has, never experienced College...Never owned a new car... there are many things I've never experienced that others might think ... "Wow... what a *B O R I N G * life that would be"... but with the kids, the commotion, and ties that bind.. I am fulfilled with a good man by my side.

Last night...we watched 2nd son walking across the stage to be handed his diploma... still have 4 more at home.. yet I WISH we could stop time.. Many "family" vacations under our wings, kids spread out all over the floor for sleepovers, a little chaotic, a rush of activity & endless cooking....all of that...I just remind myself with a smile...it's the circle of life.. I wanted Family so bad, I've enjoyed to the hilts raising my kids.... I don't see any sacrifice.. but sure.. there are things I GAVE UP...or couldn't do - due to fulfilling this dream..

I/we couldn't TOUCH or even scratch the surface of *many of the experiences *of women & men on this forum...

I guess one plus is...when we do experience something new.. there is always an "AWE" about it.. always enjoy the learning too...kept in reserves.. maybe someday we'll do that too!... 

I bet you've lived one rush of a ride over me FW !!...all while I was hanging cloth diapers outside on the line ...very simple life here..












TheCuriousWife said:


> What is most hard for me to grasp is how two people can be so in love, but yet separate over what I see as trivial things, such as being messy.
> 
> *I have to agree with SA, that you sound like PINK and Carey. (PINK is my fave) Just two passionate, and strong willed people, that love each other, but want to kill each other at the same time. lol. *
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsmUOdmm02A
> 
> *Love this song. I feel it sums you guys up pretty well*.


 I love *PINK* too!!.. I never heard this song!! Those words.. How Fitting to describe the struggle some have ! some of her songs about Him.. they are simply hilarious..like *>>*  Please Don't Leave Me ...but they're still ticking.. He's the Love of her life....and she is HIS..


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## TheCuriousWife

True Love, Please Don't Leave Me, and So What, are my favorite PINK songs. She rocks. 

ETA: Wait I forgot about my other favorites, Who Knew and Just Give Me a Reason.

Hmm. Okay. I love them all. lol.


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## Lon

FW, I totally get where you are coming from. My GF and I both enjoy having our own dwellings... when people ask us when we are moving in together we both shrug and say "no rush, we are both really happy with our relationship the way it is". Looking farther down the road, both of us have a difficult time seeing us in one house and even get much better sleep when not in the same bed. We have often talked about the adjoining duplexes or something like that, as long as there is a conjugal room 

The biggest problem with the way it is right now is that neither of us are satisfied with the amount of time we get to spend with each other, sex is great just not frequent, and with our work and my parenting schedules there are large blocks of time when we don't see each other and if busy taking care of work/parenting or other things we start losing that connection. My biggest concern for you and your H would be the amount of distance that you are creating in the arrangement you now have. There is also the issue of having to maintain separate households (both in terms of money and labour), when I spend much time at her place it is harder to find time to catch up on chores (laundry, grocery shopping etc) and also I tend to throw out a lot more produce that goes bad in my fridge.

Both of us have our stubbornness and like to do things our way too, but there are certain compromises we'd be willing to make in order to spend more quality time together, as do I think most couples. The cost savings alone would provide enough extra funds for both of us to be able to take a vacation together and do things other than the mundane daily survival tasks.

I also get what John and ManfromM...thatplace are saying about the definition of "marriage". Typically it is a formally recognized "union", two flesh become as one etc... I've always maintained that in my opinion most people would be further ahead in life not being married, and that marriage really should be reserved for those that do it for religious/philosophical reasons or else to provide a unified front to raise children. In this definition of marriage, living apart would be like saying you love to have a full meal deal at Dairy Queen, but then only ever eat the sundae and a couple fries not the burger or soda. It is great if that's what you want and you don't expect a discount for the portion you don't use, but is it really a full meal deal? I guess that is what some people see the term "marriage" as, but whatever labels we affix to things all that really matters in a relationship is if it works for both partners.


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## Faithful Wife

Lon said:


> The biggest problem with the way it is right now is that neither of us are satisfied with the amount of time we get to spend with each other, sex is great just not frequent, and with our work and *my parenting schedules* there are large blocks of time when we don't see each other and if busy taking care of work/parenting or other things we start losing that connection. My biggest concern for you and your H would be the amount of distance that you are creating in the arrangement you now have. There is also the issue of having to maintain separate households (both in terms of money and labour), when I spend much time at her place it is harder to find time to catch up on chores (laundry, grocery shopping etc) and also I tend to throw out a lot more produce that goes bad in my fridge.


I think the lack of parenting time really helps us. We don't have to split our time with ankle biters, woo hoo!

It may sound strange, but I can't even imagine loosing our connection. We still talk, text or see each other every day. I don't think an hour passes that I don't think of him, he is always on my mind. Even when we were in conflict, we were definitely still connected. And since him moving out, I have not detected any amount of drifting apart or loss of connection. If anything, our love got stronger.

But again...we've always had this very strong love and connection which doesn't seem to lessen or fade, no matter what is going on with us. So far, so good, in this new arrangement. :grin2:


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## Lon

I know what you mean by the drifting, my GF and I think of each other constantly, and initiate a reasonable amount of contact with each other when time permits, but after about 5 days with limited contact that initiation just happens a little more hesitantly. Time apart tends to make it easier to lose track, and losing track tends to exaggerate the time apart.

My only advice I have about your arrangement is be vigilant to keep that connection flourishing, and if you ever feel it slip slightly then do whatever it takes to keep it, even if that means you decide to change your minds and move back in together.


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## heartsbeating

Faithful Wife said:


> There are some parts of living alone I am really enjoying...other parts, no so much.
> 
> Shortly my mother is moving in with me however, and that will be nice. I love her, and am looking forward to having some time with her while she still has a high quality of life...even just the little things like watching a movie together or staying up late and talking. My adult son is also going to move in for short time between apartments, to help us with the move and the yard work and some other tasks we need help with. It will be nice to have some time with him, too.


Regardless of your marital circumstances, I wanted to share how highly I think of this - that you're taking care of your mother. It's not often the case. I spoke to my mother recently about planning for her future and the idea of living with us. She loves our home and it could lend itself to separate spaces if needed. Turns out, she doesn't want to haha... she plans on staying independent, in her own home, for as long as possible. We live in different states though and she does have other family near her. Anyway, this type of care is something that I hold in high regard and it touched me to read this in your post.


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## Kitt

I've redefined what marriage is to me over the years. From people trying to convince us that as a married couple it is our duty to have children to religious fervor over males being head of household....we just let go of such beliefs and embraced an equal childless partnership. It works mainly because we are best friends and easy going. I honestly believe marriage doesn't work for many because of rigidity of ideas. We are unorthodox but extremely happy and the sex is great and often....must be doing something right. Therefore, your arrangement and vision of marriage is all that matters for your life.


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## southbound

SimplyAmorous said:


> I bet you've lived one rush of a ride over me FW !!...all while I was hanging cloth diapers outside on the line ...very simple life here..


I'm sure there are plenty of people who have lived one rush of a ride over me as well, at least according to their standards, but like you, SA, I enjoy the simple things in life. I never felt like I missed or am missing a thing by not taking a more adventurous path.


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## bestyet2be

Faithful Wife said:


> You are right and SA is right in that there is something wrong with both my husband and I...we are both stubborn a**holes.
> 
> ... But I'm also a bit nuts, and my husband is, too.


Assuming most people don't start out life as nutty a**holes, I took your statement about "envy" more along the lines of "You envy people who haven't had to endure the kind of life experiences that turned you into a bit of a nutty a**hole." Or envy people who managed their hardships with more grace.

Whenever I start to "envy (another's life) experience" I usually realize that even if I could wish away the not-enviable (bad) parts of my past, I'd be foolish to do so, because I'd be wishing away not just my sometimes nutty reactions, but also the strength & wisdom I'd gained from it all.

Anyway, sounds like you've thought your path through with enough heart to *make it right* for you and yours!


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## WorkingWife

I'm pretty conservative and I think - Hey, if it works for you, it works for you. You sound like you are happier than you were before. If your kids were still in the house I'd probably find it sad for them, but they're not and you're both consenting adults and it's great that you still love each other and aren't out having affairs or fighting all the time. Good luck to you!


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## Faithful Wife

bestyet2be said:


> Assuming most people don't start out life as nutty a**holes, I took your statement about "envy" more along the lines of "You envy people who haven't had to endure the kind of life experiences that turned you into a bit of a nutty a**hole." Or envy people who managed their hardships with more grace.
> 
> Whenever I start to "envy (another's life) experience" I usually realize that even if I could wish away the not-enviable (bad) parts of my past, I'd be foolish to do so, because I'd be wishing away not just my sometimes nutty reactions, but also the strength & wisdom I'd gained from it all.
> 
> Anyway, sounds like you've thought your path through with enough heart to *make it right* for you and yours!


Oh no, I don't envy people who aren't nutty...I can't even imagine not being nutty, I like it! Never a dull moment with me around. Ha!

>


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## Vorlon

Hi FW, 

So glad that you two have found a resolution to the nagging issues you have struggled with for so long. Happiness is an elusive beast and we don't all find it or keep it in the same way. All that really matters is that it works for you. I'm very happy for you both. 

I like the new Avatar. 

Vorlon


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## bandit.45

I don't have a problem at all with your arrangement. But don't use the word separated, because that denoted an actual parting of the relationship. If it works for you two then go for it. let hubby stay in the house he's in with his man-junk outside. Try to find a place close to him. 

I am not a fan of poly-marriages or whatever you call them, so I don't really support you on that end. I think they are weird and stupid and destined to fail...but what do I know. Just an opinion. 

And don't start running around behind his back. He should not either. That's taking it too far. 

I knew a rancher as a kid who lived out ten miles from town while his wife lived at a separate house in-town. She hated that isolated ranch life but she loved her husband to pieces. So after thier kids grew up they took to living separately. She sold insurance and had an office in town while he cowboyed full time. 

But I always saw them together at the store or at church and they seemed really happy. I guess he would come into town and spend two or three nights a week with her and then he would spend the rest of his time out on the ranch. He would also come in on Saturdays and work on their town house and mow the lawn and such. Then during calving season and branding time she would go and stay out at the ranch to help him. They did that foe many many years until they got too frail. He eventually moved in with her during his final years and...

Geez I'm getting old....


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## john117

Well, my in laws lived separately for nearly a decade. He was a very important official in the previous regime and spent months on end far from the capital. Money and chores was not an issue - servants and such - but the constant separation messed up the marriage. I realize it is nowhere the same of course.

A far better outcome for her grandfather who was actually married to two women at a time - no issue with their religion there - but in two cities  the women never met each other but hated each other's guts and family members never mentioned one to the other etc. Grandpa spent a decade or more between cities a couple hours away...


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## GusPolinski

Bump!

BTW, FW, I playfully floated the idea of living apart to Mrs. Gus last night. Interesting conversation to be sure but, to sum it up...

No.

LOL.


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## Edmund

Well, since the married living separately lasted only 6 months before divorce, I guess it wasn’t a good idea after all. Too bad, I was thinking that might work for a couple I know.


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## MattMatt

Zombie thread dating back to 2015.


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## EleGirl

Reopened the thread at OP's (Faithful Wife) request as she would like to reply to the new post.


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## Faithful Wife

Thank you, Ele for reopening this thread. 

As you can see on Cromer's thread, I got thread jacky and there's no point in leaving that on his thread so delete all those posts if you feel it's best.

An update...and I'm making this update without going back and reading the whole thread first...I'm just going to address where I am now and my thoughts on the different model my ex and I had tried back then.

If you don't know already, we did end up divorced in December 2015. Even when we finally decided to D, we were never sure if it was the right thing to do or not as we were still very much in love. 

But due to several things going on at the time we went forward with it with heavy hearts. At first, he really pulled back from me in order to regroup and try to move on. That hurt a lot but I just had to deal and move on as well. I forced myself to start dating again because I knew I had to let him go and I dreaded it so much. I just figured I'd have some light, easy dating and fun and at least begin my letting go. I thought if I could distract myself with some new, interesting people I might let go at least a little, and it worked.

I was a mess of course. But at first I only dated others who were not looking for an LTR or who at least understood that's not what I was looking for and knew I was too freshly divorced to contemplate a deeper relationship right then.

After getting out for awhile I got my legs back under me and had a total blast! I dated (not slept with) several guys and had some really crazy good fun. Stuff you don't do while in a committed relationship for 12 years, for sure. Not that I wanted to do any of those things when I was with him, but it was fun to remember what it is like to be single again.

Then after about 6 months I met a guy who was a really great match for me on most levels, yet not someone I could see being in an LTR with even if I was ready. I was honest with him about everything. He was looking for an LTR but wanted to date me anyway and see where it went.

We were on and off for about a year and I just ended it for good in January. We loved each other very much and yet, without there being a future I knew I couldn't offer him what he was looking for and I wanted him to go and find it. I haven't talked to him recently but I hope he has met someone new or will soon.

During that year, my ex came back around we started to talk more. We had many heartfelt discussions. And we started hanging out as friends.

We discussed what went wrong and how we had no way to have fixed it at the time (not meaning the separation). We said that we still don't know if we could fix it now. We were just honest with each other and poured our hearts out. Not trying to get back together, just trying to heal and understand. We held each other and cried several times. But most of the time, we weren't having heavy discussions we were just having fun and doing things we used to do. We even traveled together a few times for weekend trips.

My ex knew I was seeing someone, and we talked about that a bit and there came a point when I was hanging out with my ex less because the guy I was seeing was feeling bad about it. I told my ex I was going to pull back a bit and he understood why and gave me space, even though it was emotionally very hard on him. Then during one of the times I was off again with the guy I was seeing (and wasn't expecting to get back with him) I got together with my ex and we were so happy to see each other and we then ended up touching each other in a more intimate way for the first time since we divorced. It wasn't sex, it was sexual though. At that time I never thought we would ever touch each other that way again and I used to be devastated at that thought but had tried to let it go. When we embraced that way again after so long, I was elated but also guarded and definitely didn't want to assume anything.

I'm going to break this into a couple of posts so I don't lose all of this. My tablet is acting up...


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## Faithful Wife

After that and after the thing with the other guy ended for good, we did have some discussions about maybe....possibly...what if....we could try again? In those discussions we always feel very happy and emotionally liberated. But then we feel fear. We agree and discuss that we would rather not try again and remain in each other's lives as friends than try again and fail and have to lose each other again. 

It is hard to describe how much our love for each other has grown. It is bigger and more amazing now than it was when we were together. It is unconditional now. We have been through hell together and even had to let go completely just to heal...but then when we individually got our bearings back, we came back toward each other with pure hearts that wanted nothing but the best for each other, regardless of any conditions. 

At this time, I'm dating again. I know I'm still not ready for an LTR but I do want a sex life (exclusive with one person) and to enjoy someone's company. I'm having fun dating again and just generally having fun in my life. My ex and I hang out at least once a week but sometimes several times a week. He also comes to my family events sometimes and all of my family still love him and welcomed him back because they missed him.

My son maintained a relationship with my ex the whole time though. He was my son's step dad and was a very good one and they had their own relationship outside of my relationship with either of them. They always have and still do get together without me and hang out.

Regarding the separate households relationship model that we tried....I'll put these thoughts on my next post....


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## Faithful Wife

I understand so many things so much better about our past now. Really....we just should have never gotten married. Neither of us had any real strong tie to the institution of marriage itself, nor did we have any reason to be married necessarily. We, like many people, just did what seemed like we should do. Although our wedding and the being married part were actually wonderful...now I know that what we should have done instead was just keep separate residences as we had when we met, but buy something close to each other and then have as much togetherness as we needed and as much separateness as we needed. It turns out that for us specifically, living together just never worked well for us. There were long periods of time when it was great, but we both needed far more space than we could get. That caused so many problems that could have easily been prevented if we could have just said "gosh we are getting on each other's nerves tonight. I think I'll go back to my place next door so we can get our heads on straight again. See you tomorrow, love you!"

But we just didn't have the foresight to understand this. We thought there must be some way we can figure this out. We were clueless that the way to figure it out was to get more space and have our own lives. We didn't know that was an option (and likely would have rejected it at the time in our ignorance and desire to stay together). So sad that staying together is what broke us up!!! Whereas being in separate households from the beginning probably would have kept us together!

I have no feeling that anyone else should do what I'm proposing, and I am not against marriage in any way. I just know now that marriage in the traditional model wasn't right for us and I only know that in hindsight.

Still, I think what I'm proposing could work for some people and I know there are couples who have separate residences, are not married, and yet have a great committed relationship for long term. If my ex and I had done that from the beginning, we'd probably still be together.

If we do ever get together again, we would not live together. We get that now. Next door would be fine or even a duplex. But for us, not having our own separate lives made us unhealthy as individuals and then the relationship was doomed because of it. In our separate lives we are healthy and stable, and can then present our best selves to each other. 

If we don't ever get back together and I end up with someone else, I'm pretty sure I still would not want to live with anyone again. It's not just my ex, it's me too that needs this much autonomy. I love my life! I love my home. I don't want to live in someone else's home or have them living in mine. Staying with each other, even for weeks at a time, would be great! But my home is a place I want to myself....even though I currently don't have that because my mother is still living with me and will probably continue to until she dies (she is 78). But that is another topic and not the same as having a man live with me.

Ok that's my update, TAM. Thanks for reading.


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## 269370

I know that due to the self-imposed ‘restraining order’ I’m not supposed to address you..but just to say that I’m glad things are well with you and that you managed to find a happy equilibrium.

It’s unfortunate that mundane everyday things can sometimes influence relationships in a negative way and perhaps if you both manage to remove this stress element from it successfully, you can focus on things that really matter.

Need for personal space to aid personal growth should not be underestimated.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## minimalME

FW, I've not seen this thread before, and I only read the first post and your recent update.

It's so cool that you and your ex-husband were able to set up separate houses. This is the way my dad lives. The property that he's on has two homes, so they each have their own. They're only a few feet away from one another, but it gives them both space - mainly my dad needs this.

Also, when I separated from my ex-husband, I lived in our guest house for 4 years - 1 year mandatory separation in our state, then 3 years divorced. We did this so our children would have easy access to both of us.

I think it's a great option for those who need a lot of alone time or have a particular way they prefer to live.

I am really sorry that your marriage ended. I hope you're both doing well.


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## Edmund

Hello Faithful,

Thank you for your replies above. That is a lot of your personal life I wasn’t looking for per se, but having read it, I would say you would be truly justified in putting “it’s complicated” as your relationship status! I really hope things work out well for you and your ex and other significant others and your son.

Thanks also to Elegirl for reopening the thread, this is an interesting topic, and that is what I am interested in learning, that is, folks experiences in the situation of a loving married couple living in separate residences because of incompatible housekeeping style (or work schedules or any other non-emotional reasons). The idea of “separating in order to stay married”.

So Faithful, we got off on the wrong foot on Cromer’s thread. I am not stalking you. Let’s both try to be respectful if and when we run into each other on these threads.

What I am getting from your replies above is, it was not the separate living accommodations that caused or even contributing to your divorce. The normal thing that would happen when people do a “trial separation” it usually means the one wanting the separation is cheating and wants to spend more time with the OM/OW without the spouse around. Thus, separation is prelude to divorce.

I was curious if anyone has made this separate residences thing work for a long time i.e. years, and I was actually sort of disappointed to see your experiment lead to divorce, particularly after you had described it as a solution to your problems in cohabitating with your husband.

Peace.


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## Faithful Wife

Edmund said:


> Hello Faithful,
> 
> Thank you for your replies above. That is a lot of your personal life I wasn’t looking for per se, but having read it, I would say you would be truly justified in putting “it’s complicated” as your relationship status! I really hope things work out well for you and your ex and other significant others and your son.
> 
> Thanks also to Elegirl for reopening the thread, this is an interesting topic, and that is what I am interested in learning, that is, folks experiences in the situation of a loving married couple living in separate residences because of incompatible housekeeping style (or work schedules or any other non-emotional reasons). The idea of “separating in order to stay married”.
> 
> So Faithful, we got off on the wrong foot on Cromer’s thread. I am not stalking you. Let’s both try to be respectful if and when we run into each other on these threads.
> 
> What I am getting from your replies above is, it was not the separate living accommodations that caused or even contributing to your divorce. The normal thing that would happen when people do a “trial separation” it usually means the one wanting the separation is cheating and wants to spend more time with the OM/OW without the spouse around. Thus, separation is prelude to divorce.
> 
> I was curious if anyone has made this separate residences thing work for a long time i.e. years, and I was actually sort of disappointed to see your experiment lead to divorce, particularly after you had described it as a solution to your problems in cohabitating with your husband.
> 
> Peace.


Thanks Edmund, and yes peace.

After I wrote that long update, I realized I ought to thank you for prompting me to write it, because it was cathartic for me and I needed to write it out to help me sort through how far I've come personally, and where we are as a couple.

When I do say something light and breezy like "It's complicated" I'm actually doing people a favor, because if I spilled the details they would quickly be like "hey, I wasn't expecting the Gettysburg address I just asked your relationship status". 

Thank you for the banter and the opportunity here, Edmund. 

Wrong foot, let's make it right.


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## 269370

I have not read the whole thread until last night to understand the context of your update properly. I have debated with myself whether I should write this and say something because I know exactly what is going to happen and I must be insane for doing this...I have seen ‘the corpses’ of others who attempted this before me.

I’m concerned for your situation and your emotional state. When I read your story and the way you write it- how amazing your marriage/ex marriage is/was, that the new living arrangements of not living together and seeing each other as much on a day to day basis is the new panacea and how strong your love for each other is despite not being able to get over leaving clothes around the house etc - I cannot reconcile the factual side of things (the fact that you clearly didn’t perceive things the same way and about each other, since divorce still went ahead), with the emotional/movie-like descriptions of you and your strong love for your ex husband. Nobody can deny what YOU feel and felt (what you feel is what you feel). But people who tried to question if perhaps the feeling might not have been a little bit one sided and that true partnership/marriage includes elements like being able to take crap from each other and navigate through the bad parts as well as the good parts (the mundane versus the deep and meaningful) and that perhaps it’s not the living arrangements that are the problem; this minority of people were viciously attacked and silenced. I find this so counterproductive and actually disturbing.

One of the main problems with TAM I always found is that there are many who come here to post with the sole intention to validate and enforce their sometimes completely mistaken perception of the situation (they are basically in strong denial about themselves and the situation and either do not know it or do not want to hear it) and any effort by people who are trying to help the individual are either ignored or those people are insulted and condemned to hell. It is actually completely unreasonable to write something publicly and then try to control the narrative of people’s subsequent opinions.

I cannot see how you can heal, how you can fall in love again and how you can live a happy life if you cannot truly let go of something that has been mortally broken for a very long time. I am sorry things turned out this way. Listen to your instincts, not to your ‘stubbornness’: you don’t need to justify anything to anyone to validate your past experiences. You need to look into the future and find YOURSELF again. You have never stopped loving him and the scariest and most painful thought for anyone who can love so deeply as you can is that perhaps it wasn’t entirely the same for them. Even if there are strong fundamental differences, if the will comes from both people, these differences are not insurmountable.

I’m not writing this to be in any way patronising and even if you reject everything that I have written, I know there will be people out there who will identify themselves with this situation and it will at least save THEM. I don’t care if I’m ‘in the good book’ with FW; I say things to help people who I feel need help. And to me, your posts SCREAM for help (to the extent that I have not come across on TAM before) and it would be irresponsible not to point some of these elements out. Try to take it in the spirit that it was intended (which is honesty) and we will go back our separate ways.


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## Faithful Wife

Yes IMP you've made it clear several times that you not only think this is a one sided thing, but also that you don't even believe me when I describe how I've felt even though it is the opposite of how I've stated very clearly how I've felt. You sure do seem to want to make up your own mind about what's going on in my life regardless of the truth of the matters at hand. Have fun with that. Not going to bother trying to change your mind about any of it. You believe whatever you want, like you always have.


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## Blondilocks

FW, If I may be so bold, I'm rooting for you and your ex to get back together and live in a duplex or granny (haha) flat set-up. Or, a mansion with separate wings. There is no shame in not being able to live with the one you love on a daily basis and it's no one's business but yours. Good luck, girl!


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## RandomDude

Society has a long way to go before anything either than a marriage is considered a 'good long-term relationship'. Most people also fear going against the grain.

Another issue is children, main one I'm conflicted in at the moment.


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## Faithful Wife

Blondilocks said:


> FW, If I may be so bold, I'm rooting for you and your ex to get back together and live in a duplex or granny (haha) flat set-up. Or, a mansion with separate wings. There is no shame in not being able to live with the one you love on a daily basis and it's no one's business but yours. Good luck, girl!


Thanks Blondi!

Everyone who knows us in real life is rooting for us too. It feels good.

He recently floated the idea of close but separate residences again to me. And then he asked if I thought if we were ever to get married again, would we use the same rings (which we both still have, cherished in a special place) or would we want new rings to symbolize a new beginning? I had not thought of it before so I didn't answer but just smiled and hugged him and said I was open to either. 

I will never marry again. Unless it was to him. And I'm not saying I even would with him if we could work everything out. Just saying that he's the only man in the world I would be married to if I was going to be, :smile2:


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## Faithful Wife

RandomDude said:


> Society has a long way to go before anything either than a marriage is considered a 'good long-term relationship'. Most people also fear going against the grain.
> 
> Another issue is children, main one I'm conflicted in at the moment.


Mine are grown and flown, and an empty nest is incredibly awesome for me! Yet now my mother living with me is nearly the same as having dependent children so....yeah.


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## manfromlamancha

FW, I have followed your posts right from the very start and if you remember, had commented on your arrangement and what marriage meant to some people.

I did not (as you may recall) think that your setup would work for many who entered marriage for a number of specific reasons and some of the things you described as being part of the problem were the things many choose to work through in a marriage.


Thanks for the update and I guess I kind of expected some of this. I have got to agree partially with IMP with regard to the following (and remember this is just my opinion):


I do not really believe that you are (or ever were) as much in love with your ex as you claim. I do believe that you loved him to some degree but nowhere near to the way you are describing. You needed to get away from him for that simple reason - you did not love him enough to stay with him. And there is nothing wrong with that in my opinion. I just thought that you were deluding yourself (and him to some extent) and may still be doing that.

The answer is simpler that your explanations. You like him ... a lot ... as a sort of friend ..... but not enough to put up with the usual trials that marriage brings. With kids out of the way, there was no reason for you to continue to. And you went through one of the most amicable divorces after a ILYBNILWY split that I have ever seen. Well handled. If only most divorces went that way. Your separation was always the first step in the divorce in my mind but there was no point in stating this at the time as you would (could) not see it that way at the time.

I understand dating after the split and it not working out. This happens and again, may have been a reason for you "trying" again but I guess you were just not that into him. So you split again. And you are dating again. And free.

Now with regard to your ex, I suspect the situation might be quite different. Without having him on this forum here, it would be hard to confirm, but I suspect that it is a totally different matter for him. The speed with which he took (takes) you back might suggest he never got over you and did not really want the split. But it seemed to be the only way to keep you in his life.

You do need to really let him go so that he can get over you properly. Keeping him in orbit around you, while you go through whatever you want to go through is not a healthy or even moral thing to do. I really believe you should set him free.

And finally, I do hope that you find what ever it is you are looking for - monogamous sex, good partner, freedom, whatever ... just as long as you do not waste any more of his life or time.


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## 269370

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes IMP you've made it clear several times that you not only think this is a one sided thing, but also that you don't even believe me when I describe how I've felt even though it is the opposite of how I've stated very clearly how I've felt. You sure do seem to want to make up your own mind about what's going on in my life regardless of the truth of the matters at hand. Have fun with that. Not going to bother trying to change your mind about any of it. You believe whatever you want, like you always have.


I always believed you how you felt. (For some reason this was always misunderstood). It doesn't mean that one can assume that *he* always felt the same or that *he* saw the situation the same way as you did. (Who suggested the idea of the divorce the first time around?)

I am also rooting for you (always have). But I have seen too many people get hurt too many times because love has a habit of making one blind to certain aspects of reality.

I hope it all works out for you.


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## Faithful Wife

inmyprime said:


> I always believed you how you felt. (For some reason this was always misunderstood). It doesn't mean that one can assume that *he* always felt the same or that *he* saw the situation the same way as you did. (Who suggested the idea of the divorce the first time around?)
> 
> I am also rooting for you (always have). But I have seen too many people get hurt too many times because love has a habit of making one blind to certain aspects of reality.
> 
> I hope it all works out for you.


There has been no misunderstanding. I know what you have said and you said it perfectly clear. 

This is at least the 5th time I've asked you to stop addressing me on any post. I have no interest in your opinion of me or my relationship. But being that there are no rules against you continually following me around TAM trying to engage me, I have no other option than to keep asking you to stop. 

Please stop, I don't want your opinion of me littered on my threads and posts. 

Or ignore my request like you always do and come reply and go on and on in the same way you always do. Blah blah blah.


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## Faithful Wife

manfromlamancha said:


> FW, I have followed your posts right from the very start and if you remember, had commented on your arrangement and what marriage meant to some people.
> 
> I did not (as you may recall) think that your setup would work for many who entered marriage for a number of specific reasons and some of the things you described as being part of the problem were the things many choose to work through in a marriage.
> 
> 
> Thanks for the update and I guess I kind of expected some of this. I have got to agree partially with IMP with regard to the following (and remember this is just my opinion):
> 
> 
> I do not really believe that you are (or ever were) as much in love with your ex as you claim. I do believe that you loved him to some degree but nowhere near to the way you are describing. You needed to get away from him for that simple reason - you did not love him enough to stay with him. And there is nothing wrong with that in my opinion. I just thought that you were deluding yourself (and him to some extent) and may still be doing that.
> 
> The answer is simpler that your explanations. You like him ... a lot ... as a sort of friend ..... but not enough to put up with the usual trials that marriage brings. With kids out of the way, there was no reason for you to continue to. And you went through one of the most amicable divorces after a ILYBNILWY split that I have ever seen. Well handled. If only most divorces went that way. Your separation was always the first step in the divorce in my mind but there was no point in stating this at the time as you would (could) not see it that way at the time.
> 
> I understand dating after the split and it not working out. This happens and again, may have been a reason for you "trying" again but I guess you were just not that into him. So you split again. And you are dating again. And free.
> 
> Now with regard to your ex, I suspect the situation might be quite different. Without having him on this forum here, it would be hard to confirm, but I suspect that it is a totally different matter for him. The speed with which he took (takes) you back might suggest he never got over you and did not really want the split. But it seemed to be the only way to keep you in his life.
> 
> You do need to really let him go so that he can get over you properly. Keeping him in orbit around you, while you go through whatever you want to go through is not a healthy or even moral thing to do. I really believe you should set him free.
> 
> And finally, I do hope that you find what ever it is you are looking for - monogamous sex, good partner, freedom, whatever ... just as long as you do not waste any more of his life or time.


I can see you have goodwill here. I don't have much of a reply though since the basis of what you said at the beginning is that I don't love him as much as I have expressed here.

Everyone who knows us in real life understands and knows how much we loved each other then and how much we still do now, after seeing us and our behavior toward each other from the beginning to now. Not one of them have ever doubted how much we love each other, so I can only assume there is no way to express our genuine feelings here on this forum that comes close to describing our reality.

Not going to take your "advice" for this very reason. You have good intentions but you are simply not privy to our reality and are basing that advice on things you assume but which are not true for us. 

Peace.


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## Faithful Wife

manfromlamancha said:


> And you went through one of the most amicable divorces after a ILYBNILWY split that I have ever seen. Well handled. If only most divorces went that way.


One thing though...neither of us ever said ILYBNILWY to the other (and neither of us ever felt that way). So please do not place things that never happened into my threads as if they are "facts" of my life for others to misinterpret.


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## manfromlamancha

Faithful Wife said:


> One thing though...neither of us ever said ILYBNILWY to the other (and neither of us ever felt that way). So please do not place things that never happened into my threads as if they are "facts" of my life for others to misinterpret.


That is exactly my point. I never said you said ILYBNILWY to him or vice versa. Instead you said "I Love You But Want To Live Apart And Then Want To Divorce And Also Want To Date Others But Remember We Have A Special Connection, Ask Anyone" which is a lot worse. Maybe you should have said ILYBNILWY to him - it would have saved him pain and been a lot more clear and also helpful to you both.

Nothing you have said or tried to explain is clear and I defy anyone here to say that they understand that you both "loved each other, needed to live apart but stay married, and then maybe not so much stay married, then date others, then reunite, then date others again" and accept that this is true love - a love that no one else can understand.

I was hoping that it may provide you with some clarity but I guess not - what do I know - I don't really know you guys in real life. I can only go by what you post here.


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## NobodySpecial

manfromlamancha said:


> FW, I have followed your posts right from the very start and if you remember, had commented on your arrangement and what marriage meant to some people.
> 
> I did not (as you may recall) think that your setup would work for many who entered marriage for a number of specific reasons and some of the things you described as being part of the problem were the things many choose to work through in a marriage.
> 
> 
> Thanks for the update and I guess I kind of expected some of this. I have got to agree partially with IMP with regard to the following (and remember this is just my opinion):
> 
> 
> I do not really believe that you are (or ever were) as much in love with your ex as you claim. I do believe that you loved him to some degree but nowhere near to the way you are describing. You needed to get away from him for that simple reason - you did not love him enough to stay with him. And there is nothing wrong with that in my opinion. I just thought that you were deluding yourself (and him to some extent) and may still be doing that.
> 
> The answer is simpler that your explanations. You like him ... a lot ... as a sort of friend ..... but not enough to put up with the usual trials that marriage brings. With kids out of the way, there was no reason for you to continue to. And you went through one of the most amicable divorces after a ILYBNILWY split that I have ever seen. Well handled. If only most divorces went that way. Your separation was always the first step in the divorce in my mind but there was no point in stating this at the time as you would (could) not see it that way at the time.
> 
> I understand dating after the split and it not working out. This happens and again, may have been a reason for you "trying" again but I guess you were just not that into him. So you split again. And you are dating again. And free.
> 
> Now with regard to your ex, I suspect the situation might be quite different. Without having him on this forum here, it would be hard to confirm, but I suspect that it is a totally different matter for him. The speed with which he took (takes) you back might suggest he never got over you and did not really want the split. But it seemed to be the only way to keep you in his life.
> 
> You do need to really let him go so that he can get over you properly. Keeping him in orbit around you, while you go through whatever you want to go through is not a healthy or even moral thing to do. I really believe you should set him free.
> 
> And finally, I do hope that you find what ever it is you are looking for - monogamous sex, good partner, freedom, whatever ... just as long as you do not waste any more of his life or time.


I will never understand why people think they know other people better than they know themselves. It makes no sense.


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## 269370

manfromlamancha said:


> Thanks for the update and I guess I kind of expected some of this. I have got to agree partially with IMP with regard to the following (and remember this is just my opinion):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do not really believe that you are (or ever were) as much in love with your ex as you claim.



I actually meant it the other way around: it’s HER love that was never really reciprocated in the same way (in my opinion. And ALL of this is only an opinion/observation and nothing more). It’s the surreal idolising of the relationship and of him, that gives it away as well as the insatiable need for emotional validation (that is sometimes being confused with being HD).
He is the one who needs to let her go and she needs to let him let her go.

‘Our reality is like this’ is a non sensical expression. There’s no such thing. There is HER reality (which is about how deep she thinks her love and their connection is and *which was never put in doubt by me*, in spite of continuous accusations to the contrary) and there is HIS reality. But as the events of this thread have shown, these two realities diverge quite significantly. And he is not even participating in this thread.

But there’s no point in saying anything because the closer you hit to the crux of the issue, the more vitriol and anger is going to come your way. Trying to have an adult discussion about this is worse than performing an exorcism on a teenager. Usually, if a comment is off the mark, it is ignored or a reasonable (and polite) counter argument is offered.
This is something else.

There is nothing else you can say aside from:
‘Yes, your connection is amazing, your love will conquer all, everything will be amazing’. 

I truly hope it will. One way or another.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Faithful Wife

inmyprime said:


> I actually meant it the other way around: it’s HER love that was never really reciprocated in the same way (in my opinion. And ALL of this is only an opinion/observation and nothing more). It’s the surreal idolising of the relationship and of him, that gives it away as well as the insatiable need for emotional validation (that is sometimes being confused with being HD).
> He is the one who needs to let her go and she needs to let him let her go.
> 
> ‘Our reality is like this’ is a non sensical expression. There’s no such thing. There is HER reality (which is about how deep she thinks her love and their connection is and which was never put in doubt by me) and there is HIS reality. But as the events of this thread have shown, these two realities diverge quite significantly. And he is not even participating in this thread.
> 
> But there’s no point in saying anything because the closer you hit to the crux of the issue, the more vitriol and anger is going to come your way. Trying to have an adult discussion about this is worse than performing an exorcism. Usually, if a comment is off the mark, it is ignored or a reasonable (and polite) counter argument is offered.
> This is something else.
> 
> There is nothing else you can say aside from:
> ‘Yes, your connection is amazing, your love will conquer all, everything will be amazing’.
> 
> I truly hope it will, in the end.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


"Or ignore my request like you always do and come reply and go on and on in the same way you always do. Blah blah blah."


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## Faithful Wife

manfromlamancha said:


> Nothing you have said or tried to explain is clear and I defy anyone here to say that they understand that you both "loved each other, needed to live apart but stay married, and then maybe not so much stay married, then date others, then reunite, then date others again" and accept that this is true love - a love that no one else can understand.


Actually several people here have said they understand our story. Sorry that you don't. I really never asked you to nor did I ask you to help me see anything. 

When you say it in a flippant way like "stay married, then not, then date others, then reunite"....you are clearly just mocking me and that means I'm done explaining anything to you. There was never any such plan, we are finding our way, and the way you are responding tells me clearly that you just simply stand in judgment of me rather than try to understand me.

I've been here a long time and so many people have been kind to me along my journey, and they have read my posts and updates and have been supportive of my ex and I. Many of them may not have been able to put themselves in my shoes but were easily able to see how we are not all the same and don't all need or want the same things. If some of you can't resist reading my posts as if I'm asking you personally to give me advice, (even though none of my posts ever ask for advice), then I guess that's just a reading comprehension issue you have.

One thing I have never done here is to tell someone that their life and emotions are different than what they say they are, so it always baffles me when some of you do this. I've been slapped down sometimes if I've been snarky at someone. But I've never dreamed of telling someone they don't know how they feel. Weird.


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## Edmund

FW,
Wow I am sorry I revived this zombie thread. Everyone is digging into you and your life. I just take what you say about that at face value.
All I wanted to know is ... whether the married but living in separate but nearby residences, still in love, children grown and gone, still seeing each other every week or more... is that model viable?
Is it like taking a step backwards from married back to dating?
Could this actually work for the average couple that is still in love but just tired of tripping over each other?

Every time you see a separation story on TAM, it is always a wife who tells her husband she needs space to “find herself” (how could anyone lose herself), that she’s been unhappy for a long time (this usually means the few days since her AP said he’s ready to leave his wife). And the bewildered husband like a fool always believes that she’s coming back after a few weeks of self reflection on her life. When all she really wants is to keep him as plan B while she tries out the AP as his replacement. Lots of boldfaced lying and deceiving occurs. For a perfect example of this, see Canada75’s thread. Consequently, conclusion is separation = divorce.

But does separation always = divorce?

That was what I am wondering.


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## Faithful Wife

Edmund said:


> FW,
> Wow I am sorry I revived this zombie thread. *Everyone is digging into you and your life.* I just take what you say about that at face value.
> All I wanted to know is ... whether the married but living in separate but nearby residences, still in love, children grown and gone, still seeing each other every week or more... is that model viable?
> Is it like taking a step backwards from married back to dating?
> Could this actually work for the average couple that is still in love but just tired of tripping over each other?
> 
> Every time you see a separation story on TAM, it is always a wife who tells her husband she needs space to “find herself” (how could anyone lose herself), that she’s been unhappy for a long time (this usually means the few days since her AP said he’s ready to leave his wife). And the bewildered husband like a fool always believes that she’s coming back after a few weeks of self reflection on her life. When all she really wants is to keep him as plan B while she tries out the AP as his replacement. Lots of boldfaced lying and deceiving occurs. For a perfect example of this, see Canada75’s thread. Consequently, conclusion is separation = divorce.
> 
> But does separation always = divorce?
> 
> That was what I am wondering.


Re: the bolded....there are a few people here who just can't leave me alone. And when you first were addressing me, I actually thought you might be the reincarnated version of a previous poster who also couldn't leave me alone (would dig up old threads to poke fun at me or my life, this has happened to me before). So perhaps you can see now why I thought that was the case with you as well. But the ones doing it on this thread....yeah, it gets old. I've swatted them away before but they just can't help coming back for more. Masochists maybe? No clue.

I have heard that the likelihood of a marriage surviving after a separation is pretty low, but I really have no idea. I think maybe someone posted some statistics about that once around here somewhere. And yes it does seem that many people (especially as reported on TAM) use the separation as an excuse to explore an affair.

My ex and I were faithful all during our marriage and separation, so that wasn't our experience and I can't comment. What we were trying to do was genuinely figure out how to stay together and have a better more workable relationship for us. I understand now that we've both had time to work on ourselves as individuals, we would not have been able to work it out back then. We had to get our own stuff worked out first, without leaning on (or blaming) each other for it. Now that we do have that stuff worked out, there is a chance for us in the future. Right now, we simply don't want to risk it because we'd rather remain in each other's lives as friends than get back together and then maybe not work it out again. There is still a lot that would have to happen before we ever got there...but for now, being great friends, travel partners, and like family to each other is really great! We have a lot of fun and are laughing all the time. 

People here have speculated that there must be something so screwed up about us as individuals that we can't even navigate living together like "most normal people" can. Well...what can I say? Maybe we really are that screwed up as individuals. If that is the case, then clearly we need a different model than the rest of society in order to thrive, which is what we attempted before, and possibly will again. For those people to just throw that at me like I'm supposed to cower and say "oh you are so right I am irrevocably broken oh boo hoo whatever will I do?" I just don't get what their point is. I have never once said I am just like everyone else.


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## Marc878

So I'm guessing he still leaves that damn commode seat up ?


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## manfromlamancha

Faithful Wife said:


> Actually several people here have said they understand our story. Sorry that you don't. I really never asked you to nor did I ask you to help me see anything.
> 
> When you say it in a flippant way like "stay married, then not, then date others, then reunite"....you are clearly just mocking me and that means I'm done explaining anything to you. There was never any such plan, we are finding our way, and the way you are responding tells me clearly that you just simply stand in judgment of me rather than try to understand me.
> 
> I've been here a long time and so many people have been kind to me along my journey, and they have read my posts and updates and have been supportive of my ex and I. Many of them may not have been able to put themselves in my shoes but were easily able to see how we are not all the same and don't all need or want the same things. If some of you can't resist reading my posts as if I'm asking you personally to give me advice, (even though none of my posts ever ask for advice), then I guess that's just a reading comprehension issue you have.
> 
> One thing I have never done here is to tell someone that their life and emotions are different than what they say they are, so it always baffles me when some of you do this. I've been slapped down sometimes if I've been snarky at someone. But I've never dreamed of telling someone they don't know how they feel. Weird.


I have done nothing but try to understand what you say - I did not say what I said in a flippant way - every thing I say is based on what you tell us - nothing more and nothing less. Being "kind" to you is not necessarily what is best for you (although I have always been polite). When you come to a forum like this, you do invite comment whether you like it or not. As for telling you what your emotions are, as I said, it is based on your reported actions - nothing more and nothing less.

As for comments about "digging into your life" - as I said, when you report on your life here on this forum you will get comments - if you do not want them then why report here. What I have read so far from others falls into well wishers (count me as one), curiosity as to whether this model works (from what you have said so far and depending on one's definition of "works", it does not seem to) and then those who try to understand and make sense of what you are saying (e.g. I love him more than anyone but I cannot be with him hence I am dating others but so far that has not been working out etc etc Even your username suggests that you are trying to make a point but are struggling with something - just like mine!). There are the odd few who can not accept that what you say is viable and there are even fewer who accept it point blank.

I really do hope you find happiness, but may be you should consider that (even if it is just for a moment) some of the feedback here might be useful to you. It seems that as soon as you hear something that you do not want to hear, the person saying it becomes persona nongrata and that too is fair enough. I will not comment anymore on this as it seems you think I am taking pot-shots at you.


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## Faithful Wife

manfromlamancha said:


> *I really do hope you find happiness, but may be you should consider that (even if it is just for a moment) some of the feedback here might be useful to you.* It seems that as soon as you hear something that you do not want to hear, the person saying it becomes persona nongrata and that too is fair enough. I will not comment anymore on this as it seems you think I am taking pot-shots at you.


All accepted with goodwill, but wanted to respond to the bolded.

There is a lot of feedback here that has been helpful to me. Not only on this thread but all of my other threads in the past, too. I have learned so many things at TAM, about myself and relationships. As I said I've been here a long time and have shared a lot about my life, and there are many people here who I consider friends at this point...and others who I may not know very well but who have helped me maybe without even knowing it. 

The main thing I had not understood before now about myself, is that my need for autonomy surpasses my desire to live with anyone romantically. And writing out my story and hearing others tell me that I must be a really messed up individual in order to feel this way....well, on that point specifically, I just don't know what people expect me to take from that feedback? I am a healthy, happy person and I love my life. To have it suggested to me (not saying you have, but a few others have) that I should, what? Go to a counselor and tell them "hey I'm a happy person and I love my life, but these strangers on an internet message board were telling me that I'm really messed up because I don't want to live with anyone, so here I am so you can fix whatever is wrong with me"?

In closing, again, all of your post was accepted with goodwill. Peace.


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## 269370

NobodySpecial said:


> I will never understand why people think they know other people better than they know themselves. It makes no sense.


It is true that it can sometimes _appear_ as if people claim to know better how others feel however I think it is usually more to do with the fact that some people have seen a certain situation play out a certain way *many* times over and sense that there is high likelihood that something is headed that way again and they think they are being helpful in trying to point it out ahead of time and it's the person that's likely to be in denial who tends to get extremely aggressive and pushes back with all their power because even though their mind is working overtime trying to rationalise a difficult situation, their feelings are actually sensing that something is not quite right about it, even though they can't put a finger on what it is.

It's very often that the two (the rational and emotional parts) are not in alignment with each other and it is usually MUCH EASIER for somebody from the outside to see it because they are looking at the whole thing from a different vantage point. *It's the whole point why TAM can be so helpful to so many people who are in distress.* There is MUCH less harm done in pointing something like this out, even if it turns out to be wrong. There can be SO MUCH harm when there is a pathology to not only ignore the warnings every single time but also take anyone who appears to offer an alternative opinion down. Unfortunately it's the other person who ultimately pays the price when they find themselves completely unprepared emotionally should a negative outcome strike.


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## Blondilocks

FW, it has been pointed out to me by a very kind and considerate poster that the two members from the UK are of a different culture than us. Now, instead of getting my knickers in a twist, I let their posts roll off my back. YMMV.


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## NobodySpecial

inmyprime said:


> It is true that it can sometimes _appear_ as if people claim to know better how others feel however I think it is usually more to do with the fact that some people have seen a certain situation play out a certain way *many* times over and sense that there is high likelihood that something is headed that way again and they think they are being helpful in trying to point it out ahead of time and it's the person that's likely to be in denial who tends to get extremely aggressive and pushes back with all their power because even though their mind is working overtime trying to rationalise a difficult situation, their feelings are actually sensing that something is not quite right about it, even though they can't put a finger on what it is.
> 
> It's very often that the two (the rational and emotional parts) are not in alignment with each other and it is usually MUCH EASIER for somebody from the outside to see it because they are looking at the whole thing from a different vantage point. *It's the whole point why TAM can be so helpful to so many people who are in distress.* There is MUCH less harm done in pointing something like this out, even if it turns out to be wrong. There can be SO MUCH harm when there is a pathology to not only ignore the warnings every single time but also take anyone who appears to offer an alternative opinion down. Unfortunately it's the other person who ultimately pays the price when they find themselves completely unprepared emotionally should a negative outcome strike.


From my experience, this can be the case. It can also be the case that people straight up reject others' experiences and perceptions claiming superior knowledge of things of which they have no experience themselves. I have seen FW basically told she was messed up because of what makes her happy. Because no one can feel the way she does and not be broken.


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## 269370

NobodySpecial said:


> From my experience, this can be the case. It can also be the case that people straight up reject others' experiences and perceptions claiming superior knowledge of things of which they have no experience themselves. *I have seen FW basically told she was messed up because of what makes her happy*. Because no one can feel the way she does and not be broken.


I have only seen FW say this herself, I have not seen anybody actually say it to her (on this thread; and I most certainly don't 'follow her around' to see whatever else she posts, if something comes up I feel like warrants a post, I post it, just like anyone else does. Being accused of stalking borders on paranoia). 

I can and should only speak for myself: if I ever said or gave out the impression that 'FW is messed up because she is happy', I will apologise. What I will not apologise for is someone telling me what I said, even though I didn't say or mean it especially after I try clarifying that I don't mean it.

There are instances of this happening all over this thread with multiple posters (nothing to do with their background/or country of origin); just look back how john's, conan's and manfromlamancha's comments and many others were taken.

Perhaps all these multiple occurrences with so many different posters are just coincidences.


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## NobodySpecial

inmyprime said:


> I have only seen FW say this herself, I have not seen anybody actually say it to her (on this thread; and I most certainly don't 'follow her around' to see whatever else she posts, if something comes up I feel like warrants a post, I post it, just like anyone else does. Being accused of stalking borders on paranoia).
> 
> I can and should only speak for myself: if I ever said or gave out the impression that 'FW is messed up because she is happy', I will apologise. What I will not apologise for is someone telling me what I said, even though I didn't say or mean it especially after I try clarifying that I don't mean it.
> 
> There are instances of this happening all over this thread with multiple posters (nothing to do with their background/or country of origin); just look back how john's, conan's and manfromlamancha's comments and many others were taken.
> 
> Perhaps all these multiple occurrences with so many different posters are just coincidences.


I am not going back and looking through countless posts. But she said "People here have speculated that there must be something so screwed up about us as individuals that we can't even navigate living together like "most normal people" can." And I agree with her assessment that she has received that message a lot. It resonates with me since my experience on here is similar. People will talk about marriage as an abstract, averages and the like and completely discount where a person's (for me MY) experience cheerfully does not follow the standard path. 

People are very happy to pipe up about alternative relationships and how wrong, broken and bad they are. Having exactly no experience with it themselves and very often (as is the nature of a place like this) coming from people with pretty big dysfunctions in their traditional relationships.


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## 269370

NobodySpecial said:


> I am not going back and looking through countless posts. But she said "People here have speculated that there must be something so screwed up about us as individuals that we can't even navigate living together like "most normal people" can." And I agree with her assessment that she has received that message a lot. It resonates with me since my experience on here is similar.


But that's my point. When you (and perhaps others) agree with this assessment *on the basis that it resonates with you* and not on the basis what people (or me specifically, I cannot argue for other people) actually said or attempted to say; that's when things can become problematic because inevitably there is a strong bias which not based on fact.



NobodySpecial said:


> People will talk about marriage as an abstract, averages and the like and completely discount where a person's (for me MY) experience cheerfully does not follow the standard path.
> 
> People are very happy to pipe up about alternative relationships and how wrong, broken and bad they are. Having exactly no experience with it themselves and very often (as is the nature of a place like this) coming from people with pretty big dysfunctions in their traditional relationships.


Yes that can be true. But the 'dysfunctions' in people's relationships will affect both sides of the advice, not just the advice that sees a situation differently from the OP.

It can also be true that other people have had those or similar experiences or have seen many others and warning those who haven't or perhaps can't see it. It doesn't mean they are 'attacking' them or wishing them ill. In fact it's the opposite.

I don't disagree with you; there are just two sides to it. There is also a certain communication form, which when adhered to, helps people have a productive discussion, even if in the end they do disagree.


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## NobodySpecial

inmyprime said:


> But that's my point. When you (and perhaps others) agree with this assessment *on the basis that it resonates with you* and not on the basis what people (or me specifically, I cannot argue for other people) actually said or attempted to say; that's when things can become problematic because inevitably there is a strong bias which not based on fact.


What does actual "fact" mean to you?


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## 269370

NobodySpecial said:


> What does actual "fact" mean to you?




I can know FOR A FACT what I’m trying to say, whenever I make a comment. (‘I think, therefore I am’ type of ‘truth’). When someone gets offended by it, I can either clarify it (if I didn’t mean it quite in the way it was taken), apologise or ignore the other person’s reaction and stand by the comment.

If then you are told ‘no, you didn’t mean x, you clearly meant y’ and people agree with this ‘assessment’ because it resonates with them, even though it doesn’t resonate with me - and I’m the one who said it, right? - then that’s a problem for me.

It’s not a problem I particularly care about much, it’s more of a minor annoyance.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## NobodySpecial

inmyprime said:


> I can know FOR A FACT what I’m trying to say, whenever I make a comment. (‘I think, therefore I am’ type of ‘truth’). When someone gets offended by it, I can either clarify it (if I didn’t mean it quite in the way it was taken), apologise or ignore the other person’s reaction and stand by the comment.
> 
> If then you are told ‘no, you didn’t mean x, you clearly meant y’ and people agree with this ‘assessment’ because it resonates with them, even though it doesn’t resonate with me - and I’m the one who said it, right? - then that’s a problem for me.
> 
> It’s not a problem I particularly care about much, it’s more of a minor annoyance.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's funny. I am saying pretty much the same thing, though I don't see you participating in that onerous behavior at all. Nor do I recall saying what you meant.


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## Faithful Wife

Blondilocks said:


> FW, it has been pointed out to me by a very kind and considerate poster that the two members from the UK are of a different culture than us. Now, instead of getting my knickers in a twist, I let their posts roll off my back. YMMV.


Interesting....you think this accounts for the stalking and the rudeness?


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## Laurentium

Faithful Wife said:


> Interesting....you think this accounts for the stalking and the rudeness?


As a UK member, I resemble that remark!


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## Faithful Wife

Laurentium said:


> As a UK member, I resemble that remark!


Maybe I will write a screenplay of my life and cast a Monty Python style play so that you and your kind can understand what is going on.

:wink2:


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## 269370

NobodySpecial said:


> That's funny. I am saying pretty much the same thing, though *I don't see you participating in that onerous behavior at all*. Nor do I recall saying what you meant.


Any specific thing I said (or you think I said) that makes you make that assertion? Or is it just a general/blanket statement?

I wonder sometimes if there is a comprehension problem: there is a difference between someone saying: 

1. 'If I was in your situation, I would be careful because I would worry that X (divorce) is likely to happen and perhaps it's wise to consider this possibility, even though you are so convinced and putting all your emotional chips that Y will happen instead'.

versus: 

2. 'No, you don't feel X, you feel Y and you are deluding yourself for feeling Y'. Whether X or Y turned out to be the case is not really the issue. 

There's a big difference between the two statements and it is sometimes a challenge trying to phrase it correctly without the other person immediately seeing 'red', unless you join the chant.

I never cared for chants. I care when people get hurt. But not that much for it to take this amount of my time.


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## 269370

Faithful Wife said:


> Interesting....you think this accounts for the stalking and the rudeness?


The Brits are generally known to be polite, reserved and logical. Maybe that's what's so frustrating to certain people.
----
Is it a wise idea getting into stereotypes, when everything else fails?


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## Blondilocks

Faithful Wife said:


> Interesting....you think this accounts for the stalking and the rudeness?


I think this accounts for his not *believing *he is stalking or being rude.


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## Faithful Wife

Blondilocks said:


> I think this accounts for his not *believing *he is stalking or being rude.



I don't have any experience with any brits in my personal life. So this is interesting and helpful. Thank you! 

Still...I want it to go away and stop, I have no intention of just letting it roll of my back when it is addressed to me. It will stop one way or another.


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## Blondilocks

Faithful Wife said:


> I don't have any experience with any brits in my personal life. So this is interesting and helpful. Thank you!
> 
> Still...I want it to go away and stop, I have no intention of just letting it roll of my back when it is addressed to me. It will stop one way or another.


I'm not quite sure that it's the being British that is causing the culture clash.

Some mods do believe that when a poster is requested to stay off a thread that it is rude to not honor that request.

Please keep us updated as to your relationship status. Am keeping fingers crossed.


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## Chuck71

My parents re-married. 1st was in '66 and D 30 days later LOL... They started talking again NYE '67.

Re-M in '68..... their punishment was me coming along 8>)

Be careful what you wish for.... j/k. I do need to read your thread though


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## sokillme

Faithful Wife said:


> Re: the bolded....there are a few people here who just can't leave me alone. And when you first were addressing me, I actually thought you might be the reincarnated version of a previous poster who also couldn't leave me alone (would dig up old threads to poke fun at me or my life, this has happened to me before).


I know the feeling. :surprise:


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## Faithful Wife

Chuck71 said:


> My parents re-married. 1st was in '66 and D 30 days later LOL... They started talking again NYE '67.
> 
> Re-M in '68..... their punishment was me coming along 8>)
> 
> Be careful what you wish for.... j/k. I do need to read your thread though


Ironically....my mom and dad were married twice, too. But they were also divorced twice. And their second divorce destroyed both of them emotionally for quite awhile (they both eventually recovered). 

They both moved on to other partners after their second divorce, but they were in love with each other, even though in their case it was totally unspoken (they literally didn't speak to each other). I just knew this was the case because I knew how they talked to my brother and I about each other. It was definitely a strange love they had, but it was never ever broken, no matter what they did. My dad has passed on now. My mom still dreams of seeing him.

This is another reason why I don't really want to get remarried, to him or anyone ever again. I just don't see the point and there is a high potential of more heartbreak.

But - all of this is yet to be seen. My life is so awesome right now, including his part in it, that I don't want to change a single thing!


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## Chuck71

Faithful Wife said:


> Ironically....my mom and dad were married twice, too. But they were also divorced twice. And their second divorce destroyed both of them emotionally for quite awhile (they both eventually recovered).
> 
> They both moved on to other partners after their second divorce, but they were in love with each other, even though in their case it was totally unspoken (they literally didn't speak to each other). I just knew this was the case because I knew how they talked to my brother and I about each other. It was definitely a strange love they had, but it was never ever broken, no matter what they did. My dad has passed on now. My mom still dreams of seeing him.
> 
> This is another reason why I don't really want to get remarried, to him or anyone ever again. I just don't see the point and there is a high potential of more heartbreak.
> 
> But - all of this is yet to be seen. My life is so awesome right now, including his part in it, that I don't want to change a single thing!


Well mom had a valid reason.... pop took her car and drove three states away to give a former g/f

a ride back home (450 miles away). When he came and got his clothes, he did ask her if they could

still date LOL.... Pop never verified that but... back in the 60's, I could see him saying that. They did remain

M until his death, 1996. Mom never re-M. She never even remotely considered it.

She did mention it at one time, 2016 but dementia had already taken its grip and she had reverted

back to her princess / drama queen / hot mess self from the 60's. God... she was a handful near the end.

She passed in late 2016. I saw many good, and bad things they said and did to each other.

But my place of peace.... is when I hear the old intro to Grizzly Adams... 70s series...

and I remember like yesterday... three of us sitting on that multi-colored 70s couch watching it.

Call it something like I told BetrayedDad a few years ago on his post about my "horsey" I had growing up.

-It's not that I want to remember, I just do not want to forget-


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## Faithful Wife

Chuck71 said:


> Call it something like I told BetrayedDad a few years ago on his post about my "horsey" I had growing up.
> 
> -It's not that I want to remember, I just do not want to forget-


I miss my horsey, too.


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## 269370

Blondilocks said:


> I'm not quite sure that it's the being British that is causing the culture clash.
> 
> 
> 
> Some mods do believe that when a poster is requested to stay off a thread that it is rude to not honor that request.



Perhaps it might easier opening your own private forum with people who have identical opinions, if there is no ability in coping with anyone who has a different point of view. Or I’m sure there must be an option of having a private thread and personally select people or something like that.

I don’t always look who is posting and just go by the content they write and when I get hit on the head out of nowhere, I’m also not great at just going ‘ouch, sorry, my fault’ and move on.

I will try to pay more attention. Though I have to say that in all the years, I have not clashed with anyone to this extent. This thread alone however (where it’s the first time I participated) has around 5-6 individuals who ended up on the ‘black list’ over nothing...
Must remember to do what others were doing and take the high road/ignore since any conversations to try and talk out the differences are clearly unproductive.





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