# Need advice and perspective.



## Help239

My wife served me with divorce papers a week ago. We've had arguments in the past about money and family but I never thought she would want to end our marriage. We have young children.

I am confused and do not know what to do. This honestly came as a shock to me. I would've thought she would've at least given me a chance to address her concerns before going through with the paperwork. It has taken me a week to accept that she has done this and to get over the fact that it was at a public place.

I've read all of the posts that say I should give her space. I am afraid the distance will simply fuel her need to be self-sufficient. She's an introvert and would choose do something on her own rather than accept any help that is offered. It is in my nature to offer assistance. 

Anyways, neither of us have cheated on the other. I would never do that to my wife. 

We arrived at this point in time because she has lost her trust in me. My inability to understand the extent of her issues with my family - and requests to exclude her in any events with them - has given her the feeling that I always choose them over her.

This conflict led to me lying about anything to do with them - lunches, invites to kids sporting events, bbqs - while she is away or out of town. I just didn't want to deal with the "family issue" so I figured it was easier to exclude her (as she requested) while she was away because she already has something else to do. BIG MISTAKE. She actually would rather I exclude her while she's right there in front of me. This still confuses me but I have told her I would accept it if she would just give me a second chance.

In the past week we have made progress from a communication perspective. We are cordial to each other. The problem now is she wants me to give her space (not an issue) but also wants me to act like "it would be if we were divorced". What I mean is that I only get to see my kids 2 weekends a month. I am all for her "space" but I also want to be there for my kids.

Any advice?


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## dobo

See a lawyer and tell her hell no on the kids. 2 weekends a month isn't how it would be if you were divorced, either. Where did she get that nonsensical idea?

My ex- has access to our kids any time he wants them and has a key to my house.


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## lost1234

I agree with Dobo...that is simply bs. she serves you with divorce papers out of the blue and want to tell you when you can see your children? thats just not right. is it possible that she wants the space and the divorce,that she could go stay somewhere else to have her space? clear her mind and whatever else she may want to do??? if i were the one who wanted this i would have been the one to go...and let my h stay at the house whith our children...i would however NEVER leave my children, for ANY reason...


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## Help239

I consulted a lawyer the day after she served me but decided a neutral stance would be best as it was non confrontational.

I am not "lawyering up".

Not sure where she got the facts.....


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## knortoh

Sorry but you can't afford to be neutral where kids are concerned 

( I am assuming by neutral you mean you won't challenge her decision at this point?)

- if this access is vastly different to what they know now it will affect them and your relationship -why is your wife so bitter about kids ? 

you are not being vindictive or comabative you are merely asserting your right to have a 'meangingful relationship with your kids' ...


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## Help239

I think she is missing the affect this change will have on kids but I don't think it's productive to discuss that with her at the moment. I don't know how the process works in CA but I don't think that kind of a decision is made quickly or taken lightly.

I am of the frame of mind that I was just made aware of a HUGE problem that has caused her to take this action and I am willing to make it right. I just want her to allow me to try. So I have taken this non-aggressive position.

Basically, I want her to know I will try my best to meet her needs and I want the kids to understand we are both there for them while she sorts thru her feelings of mistrust and betrayal (family vs. her). I am not taking her concerns lightly and I am not foolish enough to think that something that took months to build will disappear in weeks. I just would like a sign that she believes there's a chance.

At least we are communicating now.

Thoughts?


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## seeking sanity

There's a phenomenan that's called a "walk away wife" (google it, or go to divorcebusters.com) - it may explain what's going on with her.

Regardless, you need to exert your rights as a father. At the beginning of a separation there is a ton of emotion that clouds people's judgements. Her vision of divorce is going to be much different than the reality and she needs to know that if she chooses that path, it's going to mean less time with the kids.

Also, don't be shocked if another man emerges - often there is either an emotion or physical affair that is the catalyzing event. Prepare yourself for the possibility. Most people don't leave a long term relationship without a safety net.


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## Help239

That would devastate me


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## knortoh

My advice is still the same - I am not sure what the problem is that you must make atonement for but two things

1) could be a beat up - not uncommon for gulity spouse to blame other spouse 

2) is a separate issue from your rights as a parent - so ask yourself have you been a good father and are they accostomed to seeing you and interacting with you each day? If the answer is yes then you have a huge stake in asserting your rights...

she can't use the kids as a sort of blackmail 
she doesn't deserve the kids more....

I am still surprised you'd agree to this

it may be her decision to leave you but she must acknowledge equal rights and responsibilities over kids...that's a non-negotiable.


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## Help239

I sorry you misunderstood me. I am not saying I would agree with anything less than 50/50 custody of the kids. That much is for sure. I am a good Dad who loves his kids and also still loves his wife. I am a confessed workaholic who at time puts in 60 hours a week. A normal work week for me is 45-50 hours.

I always try to be home to read books to the kids and tuck them into bed. I am always home on the weekends as we have to split our attention with the many sports the kids are involved with.

As for my infraction, as it was explained to me, she feels I always choose my family over her. In addition, she has caught me telling lies about my whereabouts. I don't hang out with the guys at the office a lot. But if I work late and decide to have dinner with them but I tell her I'm working late......

I really don't want to contact an attorney. I'm going to try to find a neutral party to help us through this difficult time.


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## Inturmoil

Help....I am right there with you...the best advice I can give is just give her space. DO NOT walk away from your kids...be the best dad you can possibly be to them. Your situation is very similar to mine....although I did find out that my wife has an EA with someone that I feel is affecting our chances.....as slim as they may be. Hang in there.....you still have a chance!


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## Help239

Thanks for the encouragement. I sincerely appreciate it. This is tearing me up inside.


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## seeking sanity

If you are lying to her, even small ones, it's a sign of immaturity and disrespect. It also puts her in the position of being the 'parent' which is annoying at best, and, at worse, makes it hard for her to respect you or feel safe with you. You're entitled to have dinner with colleagues occassionally. It's just when manipulate her about it, it devalues her.

You may want to read Divorce Busters, or try the Mort Fertel program. Basically recommit to the family, give her space, don't try to win her back with words, but focus on actually being present, trying to reconnect intimacy (without a sexual agenda), and show her that you can change. Part of this will involve you getting your own life, and becoming a stronger, more attractive person. 

I suspect she has given up on things and is distrustful of your ability to change. Saying, I'll change, or begging for a 2nd chance at this point is not going to help because she won't believe it. She'll see it as weakness and posturing. Likely she's been nagging you for years to be around more, or support her in ways you didn't notice. And now she's finally lost faith in you. 

Read Divorce Busters. It's a good start.


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## outinthecold

I thought about answering you privately but I thought someone might benefit from a public answer.

"How I wound up with my kids?"

Michigan is a 50/50 state, if she wanted the house or the kids full time she would have to provide financial means to support them.

My X does not have the financial means to support the house and the kids. No judge is going to award any wife all the money you make. 

Your assets are a 50/50 always, so somebody has to come up with the cash if they want property.

I wound up with the kids, surprise surprise, a guy is in the picture, like *seeking sanity* said.

Fortunately, my wife does recognize I'm the best father there is, so she is amicable to the way it wound up. I give her total freedom with the kids, whenever she wants to take them or not take them. I am their sole financial support. This leaves her time to finish college, have a relationship with her new man, whatever she wants to do and not be tied down with the kids.

The Walk Away Wife, she need him more, left, started up right away with him.

However, it has not worked out so well emotionally. It has taken a toll on her not to be with the kids everyday. The older ones reject her because of her "Man". Likewise it will have the same affect on you if you do not have contact with the kids throughout the week. You need more than two weekends. Renegotiate right now.

If there is an outside Emotional Attachment, it will be easy to spot. Phone calls if you watch her face, emails, if she is dressing differently. Smiling, you know the special smile you use to get, but she is giving to someone else right now. If she is trying to be totally unattractive to you, bland, not trying to lead you on. All signs of an Emotional Attachment.

Sorry

If you need to talk, I'm just a stranger, give me a call, send me another private message I'll give you my number.


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## Help239

Can't sleep....been up since 2a. Thanks for the responses. I see a little bit of everything in the current situation. I'm so conflicted and confused. I tucked all of the kids into bed after books and my sons prayer brought me to tears.


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## Help239

I found out she's been spying on me by checking my cell phone. I told her I have nothing to hide, you can have my phone anytime. She pointed out specific times in 2009 that I lied to her. Like the time I was out of work and went to the movies with some friends - apparently I told her I had a job interview but I don't think I dressed up for the movies. Another time I had to work late and she saw a coworker text me thanks for dinner. I worked late, ate dinner, and then went back to work. These texts seem to be taken completely out of context. In any case, I agreed that lying about my whereabouts is not good (assuming her assumptions are true). I can flip a switch and tell her the truth all of the time....no problem. Heck, enable GPS tracking on the darn phone if you want to know where I am - it doesn't matter to me.

I got to thinking last night that I'd ask her if I can check her phone. She initially said sure but then asked for the phone so she could enter her password. I don't have a password setup on mine. While holding her phone - after entering her password - she began scrolling through all of the texts asking what I wanted to see. I said, I just want to know what you are up to. You checked my phone behind my back for 10 months - I'd like 30 minutes. She started to get angry and basically said she has nothing to hide, but she doesn't want me to look at her phone. I let it go.

Really, the accusations of lying are true when specific to family but that's only because of her sensitivity to the subject. She wants nothing to do with them. I felt trying to include her in events would allow her to see the benefits of having a larger support group. Over the years I grew tired of the conficts whenever someone wanted to come over for Christmas or a birthday, or whatever. So, if a family member wants to met for lunch, I meet them for lunch. If she asks where I am, I say I'm at lunch. That's a lie to her. If she goes out of town on business and I invite them over to watch the kids play sports, she feel betrayed and I'm the guilty party.

I'm sorry to be venting but after the phone thing last night I too got angry. Ever since being served I have done nothing short of try to make amends and she hates me for it. Why now? What's changed? Well, I'm obviously a clueless, lying, dumbass of a man who didn't hear his wife's cry for attention or help. That's my crime. And in response she files for divorce and agrees with her attorney to serve me papers at one of our kids' sporting matches.

Can someone chime in on what I should be doing?

I really wished she had given us a chance before going this route. She might have shown signs and "told" me by acting out but I need to be TOLD to my face. It's not the same thing. Like most men on these forums, I am dead set againist divorce and I want to fix the relationship. I am saddened by the impact this change has already had on our kids over the last 2 weeks. I believe she feels this will simply get rid of me and she will no longer have to stress. She completely missed the impact on the kids and her time with them.

I am a good father to my kids. They are the only ones who welcome me home after work everyday. She resents me for the fact that they miss me because I am away all day and that's why they miss me. I don't think that's really why they miss me, is it? They appreciate me for who I am, and love me unconditionally. This is something my wife has not shown me in years. 

When I ask why she replies that I can just as easily give her a kiss when I get home as she can give me one. I'm always the one, however.

I feel hopeless, I don't bring up my needs and concerns because they really don't matter at the moment after she initiated this divorce. I just want her to be happy. It breaks my heart knowing that I have caused her so much pain. I want to fix it. When I'm alone in the car or at work I am a wreck. I cry not because of what she did, but because I cannot make her happy and I caused her pain.

If we had only communicated. None of this would have happened. Now she can't stand to be around me. 

I'm dead inside.


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## dobo

She hates you because she feels you put her in this position by not hearing her when she told you exactly how she felt time and time again. She hates you because you want to fix it now, when she's finally detached enough to seek divorce. Where were you all those times before?

I am getting a little sick of seeing the "Walk away wife" get quoted on this site because it makes it like the woman just up and made the decision w/o regard to anyone else. She put up with years of having her feelings disregarded to get to this point.

You didn't want conflict so you avoided. She would rather have had the conflict because at least that meant you respected her enough to be truthful. You did choose your family over her. They knew the truth. She did not. 


HOWEVER.

Her unwillingness to give you her phone is damning. She has someone on the side already lined up and this is what gave her the PUSH she needed to act on the desire she's had for a long time, to leave you. 

Things don't look good for reconciliation, I'm afraid. :-(


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## Help239

I didn't mean to imply this was a "walk away wife" situation. Not at all. I was just sharing what has happened.

She has always maintained that she hates it when we fight. She doesn't and didn't want conflict. I thought I was just giving her what she wanted. I was there when she told me how she felt. We went to counseling and she said I didn't put 110% into it. That's a 2 way street. She said some of the principles were dumb or didn't apply when I thought they did. 

I believe she has people she is talking to on the side to help her through this but at this point they are all women. I am not going to jump to any conclusions.


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## seeking sanity

dobo - I posted the walk away wife comment. I can understand how it's annoying to have years of pain trivialized into a category, but I find these stories so tragic and pointless, in a way. I've spend more time on boards like this than I care to admit, and it's the same sad story over and over again. 

Basically Help239 is screwed. The marriage may be salvagable, but his wife's passive aggressive pleas to be heard over the past several years, and his own lies spoken because it was easier than dealing with conflict, is my story, and so many others' stories. It's just all so pointlessly dumb. His wife is now probably in, at least, an EA. He's finally had the wake up call that he can't take the relationship for granted, and may or may not figure out how to act in a way that gives him a chance to save it. But whatever happens, years of mess, pain and tragedy and going to unfold. 

If she'd said in clear language, I'm deeply unhappy and willing to leave you if things don't change, he'd maybe have gotten it. If he had understood that being married yesterday doesn't mean you'll be married tomorrow, maybe he'd gotten it. They are both responsible for the problems. 

I hate it and I'm sorry for them both. In my life I've reflect on how it has all unfolded, what I've learned about human relationships, and these patterns that we all seem wired to follow, and I feel a combination of weary and deeply sad. The walk away wife description was such an insight for me at the time, as it reflected a pattern of behavior I didn't understand until then.

(Help239 - sorry to talk about you like you aren't in the room. Your wife is most likely in an affair, though she may not realize it. If it escalates, she's going to start acting more and more crazy. You're going to hate yourself and take responsiblity for wrecking the relationship, and probably get more and more needy as you try to get her back, which will further drive her away. The truth is somewhere in between. You're both 50/50 responsible for the state of the marriage, but she won't see it that way, and nothing you say will convince her of it. You're going to have to win her heart back before that conversation can even begin, and it seems like you have competition in that regard. Sorry.)

BTW: I could be totally wrong in all regards. Grain of salt, and all.


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## dobo

Whether you believe it or not, most of these women HAVE said it in very clear language. Over and over again. That nobody listens until the divorce is a shame. But it is hardly her fault completely.

It is avoidable, but it is only avoidable if people do the research up front to see how things tend to go. Guys are notorious for dismissing pleas, for ignoring requests, for shutting down instead of opening up. The woman can only do so much for so long without finally throwing her hands in the air.

None of this is news to most women. Only men are the ones who are apparently clueless that if someone is ignored for long enough, they will quit trying.


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## Inturmoil

So why when a man does get it and is completely open to doing whatever it takes to make the marriage happy and successful are these women not willing to even make an effort. Especially when there are kids involved and decades of a life together that is just getting thrown away. I realize there is usually an EA involved(as is my situation)but it still boggles my mind why they won't even try when it's what they wanted all along!


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## dobo

They're not willing because they have already gone through the grieving process and have moved on in their hearts and minds. For them, the marriage started to be over a long, long time ago.

That it is news to the guy is tragic, but it isn't as though she didn't try to tell him something was wrong.

If someone asked for water because they were thirsty from day 1 of the marriage until year 10 but didn't get the water until they were ready to leave in year 12, you'd see that they were already dead by the time the water arrived.


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## Inturmoil

Well to put it bluntly it just sucks and is impossible to deal with if you're on the receiving end. If I didn't know any better I would think you are my wife! I do not give up that easy and will fight with every last fiber of my being to save my marriage. I know it may be in vain but at least I will be able to live with myself knowing I tried everything I could.


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## dobo

It may suck, but from her perspective, she found it impossible to stay in the situation she was in. She was living with what you just woke up to. The timing is a drag but unless you have real empathy for what she's saying, there is no chance. Getting mad at her really isn't fair. She gave you years of chances.

THAT SAID :

There are also women who will manufacture reasons after the fact... This is where it really requires the guy to soul search to see if indeed, she had communicated and it was ignored or dismissed. You have to be fair. You have to be open to the fact that communication takes a lot of forms. If she's right, you have to acknowledge it. 

If she's not, she's probably got an affair going anyway and unless he's really impossible to attain (you know, married or whatever), you don't have a lot of hope. 

But truth be told, a lot of women even if their affair doesn't work out, would still never return to their former spouse. They simply moved on in the relationship. It really isn't about the other guy. It is about them and years of unhappiness versus the potential for years of promise and freedom.

These are issues that really need to be addressed way before the thought of divorce comes up... while she is still in love. Once that turning point happens, it is really hard to get someone to try again. 

My second husband is a second husband. He's turned into a great guy. Too bad he wasn't that way for his ex-. Strangely, he claimed to be blind sided when she announced she was leaving (no other man). But in retrospect, when he looks at things, he sees why. And he's sad and disappointed with himself. It is a shame, but it isn't as though there were not signs... the significant lack of sex being a biggie.


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## brighterlight

dobo, I agree with some of what you are saying but not all. Yes, the reason woman leave is becuase the H never got it and she has moved past the grieving process with is very hurtful to them. I do believe this is the reason in most cases. BUT - what you are missing and the guys on here are not mentioning is that, in many (i wouls say most) of these cases the wife never openly and plainly (like speaking to a child) tell the H that they were being neglicted while it was happening. What they did do in most cases I bet is the old "mind reader" technique; as my wife did to me over the years.

Women really need to understand men better. We do not get little inuendos and hints of body language. We need to be told nicely, seriously, plainly and directly - "Hon, I am feeling like this and it very well can take a very negative turn in our marriage, please help me out here or we will suffer." Yes, like spoon feeding a child, I know bur really, it's better than the "Walk Away Wife" syndrome.

Here's something to ponder:

Have you heard about as many "Walk Away Husbands". Nope - becuase we don't allow years of neglict to build up - oh yes, we get that too. We pretty much blow up right away. It may be childish but hey, how about if we told our wife's after 30yrs of marriage - You just don't show me love anymore.

And, yes, I know it happens to both genders, but look around on here and I think the numbers prove the "Walk Away Wife" is more common.


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## dobo

A lot of women who get to the walk away point also have blown up time and time again.

I believe a lot of men do get at least that there is a prolem because often these same guys do things like avoid issues -- so if they avoid things, they know they exist. Claiming no knowledge and that she didn't explain herself is just a lie that makes the guy feel better.

Women often put themselves second to the children. So they put up with a lot. It isn't until the kids don't need them as much that they look out for themselves. So it is the earlier responsibility that prevented them from going earlier. It isn't that there is anything in particular special about them being women apart from the fact that they view the children as their primary job. Men leave through all stages of marriage. Women tend to leave when the children hit a certain age. I thas zilch to do with how men cope versus how women cope. It has everything to do with stage in the child rearing timeline.


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## dobo

Something else to consider, since this isn't exactly a new phenomenon, why are men so slow on the uptake? Why are men so clueless when it comes to relationships and marriage? Why is it that a woman can bring up the same subject 500 times and he not get that it actually matters to her?

You get the "I knew X bothered her, but I didn't know it bothered her this much." What were those 500 attempts at communication about? How happy she was with the situation?

The male tendency to put their heads in the sand is at the heart of the problem. And you guys with sons can fix that by emphasizing communication and listening with your sons. If you don't do that, you're just as much to blame as anyone for this situation occuring in their lives.


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## Help239

Sorry dobo, but my situation is closer to what brighterlight is saying. Yes, I will admit there were "signs" - the silent treatment, less sex, etc. But I at least need to hear the problem in plain english AND the severity of the issue. 

For example, if I told you I had a fear of snakes, ok. But if I never told you I'd divorce you if you ever brought a snake in the house.....well..

Not trying to simplify it, just explain it.


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## voivod

Help239 said:


> Sorry dobo, but my situation is closer to what brighterlight is saying. Yes, I will admit there were "signs" - the silent treatment, less sex, etc. But I at least need to hear the problem in plain english AND the severity of the issue.
> 
> For example, if I told you I had a fear of snakes, ok. But if I never told you I'd divorce you if you ever brought a snake in the house.....well..
> 
> Not trying to simplify it, just explain it.


i'm feeling sparky tonight, so pardon me for this, but:

this "signs" thing is crap. TELL me, don't give me one of your stupid "signs."

less sex means you're horny less than i am. SURPRISE!!!

silent treatment means you don't have anything to say. SURPRISE!!!!

plain english, please


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## Help239

Yes, I agree. When once a month is "normal", once every 2 months isn't much of a change.....


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## seeking sanity

Dodo - You have a lot of terrific insights. I think what the men are saying is that subtlety doesn't work well with men and while men need to get women, women need to get men too, if their goal is a healthy, happy marriage. To me it feels like what you are saying puts the responsibility on the guy, which isn't really fair if marriage is 50/50%. (I don't think it is.)

From a guys perspective, once children are conceived, we become bottom of the family chain. We're least important. It's hard to get used too, but part of being a man. So the diminishing sex, the lack of attention, the complaining starts as a response to having young kids, and the corresponding exhaustion, and continues on, becoming the 'normal' way of being. As a result it's hard to see the transition from child-caused exhaustion, to overall discontent in the relationship.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I was so stressed trying to provide for a family, while wife would put her head in the sand about it. Plus I felt unappreciated and neglected, but sucked it up because that's what mature guys do when they have kids. She may have felt all those things, but I also felt a deep loneliness. I think men are just wired to tolerate it more. 

Plus the abandoner always has more power than the abandoned. And since women leave more often then men, it feels deeply unfair to the guy, because we generally were trying our best, given our resources and lack of knowledge of communication and relationships, and it is dismissed as us being the ones that failed the relationship.

I often think of all the hard work, fear, struggle I overcame to provide a good life, and feel like it was pointless. I could have been one of the ****-ups my exW latched onto and enjoyed the abundant sex and attention, without the corresponding responsibility. I feel totally ripped off in this deal.


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## Help239

One more thing I want to ask....

So I'm "working" at the office from 7am to 5pm.

And she is "working" at home from 7am to 5pm.

When I come home and "take over", am I not "working"? The books, the baths, the brushing of teeth, the tucking in, the prayers. Not what I would clasify as "work" but it gets me thinking....especially when she stops "working" when I get home.


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## seeking sanity

Help239 - That's a valid point, but you're applying rules of 'fairness' to this, and the reality is that relationships aren't 'fair.' Seemingly the current standard is that when a man goes to work it is a holiday from family responsibilities, and that when he gets home he needs to take on his share. 

I'm coming to the conclusion that marriage is not fair to men, and that in the current middle class model of it, the guy needs to perform financially, be a great father, and a husband that can read the clues around what his wife is saying, and not take it personally when she rejects him in bed at the end of the day. 

That may be a bit bitter.


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## Help239

Bitter......but true. At least in my case.


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## dobo

seeking sanity said:


> To me it feels like what you are saying puts the responsibility on the guy, which isn't really fair if marriage is 50/50%. (I don't think it is.)


It isn't putting more on the guy. But it is putting more on the guy than most guys put into a marriage -- you say it is 50/50 but everyone knows that no relationship is really 50/50. That's a goal and an ideal. But it doesn't work out that way in the real world.



seeking sanity said:


> From a guys perspective, once children are conceived, we become bottom of the family chain. We're least important. It's hard to get used too, but part of being a man.


That's where women make a huge mistake... correction -- COUPLES. Prior to children, the discussion needs to be had that unless the husband remains #1 to the wife and vice-versa, there should be no children. The marriage is more important than anything. Without it, there is no family.



seeking sanity said:


> So the diminishing sex, the lack of attention, the complaining starts as a response to having young kids, and the corresponding exhaustion, and continues on, becoming the 'normal' way of being. As a result it's hard to see the transition from child-caused exhaustion, to overall discontent in the relationship.


It may be difficult, but guys need to get educated. Women read relationship books. Men read Maxim.



seeking sanity said:


> I can't speak for anyone else, but I was so stressed trying to provide for a family, while wife would put her head in the sand about it. Plus I felt unappreciated and neglected, but sucked it up because that's what mature guys do when they have kids. She may have felt all those things, but I also felt a deep loneliness. I think men are just wired to tolerate it more.


I think a lot of men are afraid to speak up. They don't want to rock the boat. 

I was thinking about the comment made earlier about not wanting to bring certain things up to avoid making her upset... It probably is a lot more about the guy wanting to avoid his own discomfort than to avoid hers. IOW, it wasn' selfless. It was selfish.




seeking sanity said:


> Plus the abandoner always has more power than the abandoned. And since women leave more often then men, it feels deeply unfair to the guy, because we generally were trying our best, given our resources and lack of knowledge of communication and relationships, and it is dismissed as us being the ones that failed the relationship.


That becomes the rewrite of history for sure. But unless you can deny that the woman has truly attempted to communicate in the past -- you can remember no discussions about the things she says finally broke the camel's back -- you have to accept that the guy is somewhat responsible, too. It isn't all the guy. But it is difficult to deny the years that she went without being heard.




seeking sanity said:


> I often think of all the hard work, fear, struggle I overcame to provide a good life, and feel like it was pointless. I could have been one of the ****-ups my exW latched onto and enjoyed the abundant sex and attention, without the corresponding responsibility. I feel totally ripped off in this deal.


Anyone would.

That your ex-wife latched onto a bunch of losers tells us a lot about her though, doesn't it. And it probably says you were too good a guy for her. But you should try to remember that being a good person is a positive thing. And you'll make a much better husband the second time around. 

I know my husband is a much better husband to me than he was to his ex-. And I appreciate him. I love him so much. Someone will love you that way, too. And they'll understand what they're getting and they'll be thankful.


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## dobo

BTW, you can imagine that subtlty (how the hell do you spell that?) isn't one of my strong suits. But I can assure you that my ex-husband still never heard a damn word I said. So all of this nonsense about having to read signs is just that. 

If you're getting less and less sex over time and you don't bring it up and you just accept it, what do you expect to happen? That it will somehow just right itself? You have to fight for what you want. 

The physical withdrawal is usually a surprise to the woman. She doesn't know what is wrong with her. She used to want the guy but now she doesn't. It PRECEEDS conscious understanding that there is a significant relationship problem. 

Anyone who sees a significant decline in sex needs to get at the root of the problem as soon as possible.


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## brighterlight

dobo, I do see what you are tying to get at with your response to my last post - really, I do. Here's a mans POV. Your own comment, for instance, is exactly where the problems start.

Example - woman put themselves second after the kids. Agreed? You said that. Yes, they do and guess what - many good fathers on here do exactly the same thing. So, with that said, where do wifes and husbands come in on the ladder - oh, I know, wait - we are number 3 (Three on the totem pole). In my case, it was the kids first, wife second and me third. In her case it was the kids first, her second, me third. That's just the way it was. So as one post said on here - marriage should be 50/50. In many cases the H gets put in there 3rd string. Which in turn builds resentment - most of the time unconsciencsly until a wedge comes between the spouses.

So, here is what I told my children - Sons and my daughter. When you marry, put God first, yourself and your husband second, and the children third. And I didn't tell them to put the children third in a literal sense, I explained to them that the married couple needs to be at the forefront of a marriage in order for the "FAMILY" to be happy. In other words, if you and your spouse are satisfied and happy then everyting gets easier (including raising children) becuase you both have each others back, unconditionally for support.

All I am saying is that your comment about children first and mother second is exactly what brings us to these boards in the end, becuase it means husbands/fathers third and that is not good for any marriage. Yes, I (WE) learned a lot from our experience this last year and I can tell you it is much better now that we are both first in each others eyes. Our love is stronger than ever.


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## dobo

"All I am saying is that your comment about children first and mother second is exactly what brings us to these boards in the end, becuase it means husbands/fathers third and that is not good for any marriage. Yes, I (WE) learned a lot from our experience this last year and I can tell you it is much better now that we are both first in each others eyes. Our love is stronger than ever. "

Exactly. What you've instructed your children to do is spot on.

Every child needs to hear that and have it drummed into them by the time they are adults.


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## Feelingalone

Dobo, I agree with of a lot about what you are saying, yet disagree as well based on your last post. As you said you aren't subtle about things - which comes through in your posts. Unfortunately, most women are not as direct as you. So I believe your points are valid for you, they aren't necessarily valid for all women. 

I will say that yes my wife tried to reach me, but the way she communicated it was with anger and horrible tone (counselor agreed on that after some discussion in front of her) which the counselor came right out and said - well that will never work to start a conversation like that the other person willl either erupt back or walk away and avoid. So think about that.

The point I most agree with you on is the children point. That seems to be a prevalent problem today. And was with my w and I. We invested too much in him and forgot about us. Then that became routine. Of course she is obsesses with him still which worries me. I read an article in a local paper discussing this issue and it rang so true.

Your children need to see that mom and dad are a couple first and that is most important to their well-being. Thinking about how prevalent that is today with parents elevating their kids above themselves is scary about how those kids will develop in the future. Talk about a me, me, me society. Look out, here they come.


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## dobo

FA, did she start out with anger or did the anger develop over time?


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## Feelingalone

Dobo, that is how she always tried to communicate things. With anger. But understand, I've discovered she is a narcissist. Which plays into everything that happened to us.


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## Feelingalone

By the way, I'm not ducking responsibility here at all. I'm a Nice Guy. Meaning I was emotionally dishonest with myself and then her. I kept doing things I thought she would like and when they didn't work, I kept doing them more and more instead of changing tacts. Over time I felt worthless because I tried and tried. Anyway, that is just me.


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## dobo

Well, you're doing a lot better now and for a lot of you guys, I think the future will be so much brighter.


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## seeking sanity

Thx dobo for the insights. What comes up for me is that men (can't speak for women) and so naive in their FIRST marriage. We assume it will last and try to ride out the various peaks and values. And we aren't very strategic in our thinking, because it never occurs to us that we need to work to keep the woman.

And the biggest tragedy in all of this is that once we've learned that there is no 'true love' and you need to work on keeping her engaged, it is most often too late. So the second marriage benefits from the failures of the first.

The only thing I don't understand is why 2nd marriages have a higher failure rate than 1st marriages.


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## dobo

I think that a couple of things happen in 2nd marriages :

1 is that when you have survived one divorce, you learn that you can survive anything so the "pain" threshold is lower

I can't think exactly how to phrase the other thing I think is at play. It has something to do with recognizing what won't work in the long-run and getting out with a lot less investment than the first time. 

I also think that a lot of people never resolve their original, personal issues between marriages and those same issues come up again. And when they do rather than address the issues, people just bail.

And let's face it, there are real benefits to living alone. Maybe the time between marriages is a time that people start to long for when trouble arises in marriage #2.


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## dobo

And about working at marriage, both spouses need to work to keep the other engaged. Men may be simpler creatures, but they still require care, attention, feeding and sex. And occasionally toys. 

Routine is a killer for people. Gotta mix it up, too. Keep things fresh by being clever, not by stepping out on the marriage.


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## Help239

I didn't find out about the "straw that broke the camels back" until after the papers.


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## Feelingalone

Why do 2nd marriages fail. Think about it. If 50% of 1st marriages fail then by definition the people who can do it well don't get married again and those that didn't the first time are the second marriages you talk about. And Dobo is right, most don't fix their inate problems which caused issues in the first and are doomed to repeat. I should have mentioned this before Dobo, but I am Husband #2 -- the pattern repeated. For me she is w#1.

So before any of us jump back in -- look into the mirror and dig deep into your soul to discover the real you. It is not fun to discover your own issues, believe me, but in the long run you are better for it.


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## dobo

Absolutely! And, figure out what drew you to the person who ended up leaving or not working out. Maybe you were attracted to something that was doomed from the start? Maybe you ignored early warnings?


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## Feelingalone

All I can say is that with narcissists you are sold a bill of goods. They say and do all the right things in the beginning and you are like wow this can't be true. Always remember that old saying, if its too true to believe, it aint true at all. After the euphoria wears off on the narcissist and the "Spouse" stops "adoring" them, then they look for another to feed their fix of constant admiration and gratification. They live in idealized worlds of what love and marriage mean and do not accept responsiblity for their own part. Just move on is their mantra. Sad but true. That is what worries me about the kids of this generation. There is a rise in narcissism among 20 somethings. Imagine what these young people are learning. Fifteen years from now divorce in 1st marriages will be higher - not everyone can be number 1. It takes a team to be a couple.


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## Help239

Everyone says to leave the person who filed alone and pray they come to their senses. What if I just ask to hold her and talk thru the issues? Will this backfire on me? I asked in the womens forum but nobody has given me any insight. Sex is not what I have in mind. I just want to SHOW her I still care and respect her and that her needs matter to me.


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## Deejo

Help, I'm giving you my opinion. 

You are too late to 'show' her anything right now. If she took the time, effort, and emotional energy to make the decision to leave you, see an attorney and have the papers drawn up, _and you had no idea this was coming_ ... then she has been thinking about this for a while, and obviously has some resolve. 

If you try to flick the love switch and pour it on - you are far more likely to further alienate her than win her over. If she's telling you that she wants space, and you want to be closer, talk more, and be there for her - you will only prove that you weren't listening to what she is telling you.

On the flipside, giving her space does not mean that you become a doormat - particularly if she has become involved with someone else.


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## Help239

I'm nobodys doormat. Neither one of us have a EA. I am telling her I want to meet her needs. I want to give her what she says I haven't. I just need to know the specifics. Does any of this make sense?


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## Help239

She said no to being held and talking through the issues. I spent the weekend helping out with the kids and thought I was being helpful. This morning she says she could've done everything by herself and that I didn't need to be there.

I responded by saying she cannot be in two places at once and I am not comfortable leaving any of our kids alone at sports. 

I tried to reason with her but she says she needs space. I have gone through all of the emotions. At this point I have decided to leave to give her space. Is that a wrong decision? Otherwise I'd be stuck in your position of watching her "enjoy" spending time away from home while I take care of the kids and worry myself sick. 

She says when she filed we no longer are responsible for each other. I do not have a lawyer so I do not understand what that means. We have a court date coming up and I was pressuring her to give us another chance and to pull the papers. That worked against me and she replied with "I need space to think you are smothering me".

She says I'm in denial and pretending everything is still "normal".

I said I'm not in denial and that it's perfectly clear how serious this situation is and all I'm trying to do is give her what she wants. I'm not pretending all is normal, just trying to be there for her and the kids.

I am so confused. I think I'm gaining ground and then she tears me up inside. Am I wrong not hiring an attorney? I am still waving a white flag. I do not want her to think I want to argue this out. Arguments and lack of communication is what got us into this in the first place.


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## Inturmoil

Help....I am new to all this but your wife and mine could be twins...right down to the very words that came out of her mouth....that being said.....she doesn't want to work on anything right now. We, as men, want to "fix it" but it doesn't work that way. She has been thinking this through for a long time and now that you finally get it, it is too late in her mind......this doesn't mean that she won't decide that she wants to work on things....but the only way it's going to happen is if you give her space....I don't agree with you leaving....this is her idea and if she wants space....she should leave to get her space.....i refused to leave as it was my house and my kids too......i know this all sucks and isn't what you want to hear...but take it from a guy who is where you are at and has been there for a couple months......don't pressure her...that will only build a bigger wall between you.....good luck to you my friend.


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## Help239

But what about the court date? We only have a few weeks .... I'm am so frustrated. Is it too much to ask for some time to deal with this and put the "papers" on hold? If time and space is what she really needs, wouldn't that be the best course of action?

God, I feel my life is so trivial at times.


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## Inturmoil

I guess I don't really have an answer for you there.....there is only so much time....it would be nice to have some time for you to adjust.....in my case my wife is giving me time to absorb it all.....in fact in my other thread we are going to have to sell our house and I am right in the middle of some addition upgrades so I have the luxury of time.....hopefully one of the "veterans" here will have some better advice for you....I just know that pushing will get you nowhere.....and do not leave your kids by any means.....courts don't look kindly on someone leaving the house....especially if your wife is going to get nasty.....sorry I can't be of more help


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## Deejo

The sooner you put a stake into the ground about how this is going to play out - the better served everyone will be.

Let me reiterate: You think that reaching out to her can stop the freight train. It won't. It will roll over you. Leaving you more confused and in even greater pain. If you throw your hands in the air she isn't going to take pity on you. You trying NOW to give her what she wants is feeding her resentment, not diminishing it.

You want to stop the freight train? Waving flags isn't going to do it. You need to meet it with another freight train.
Take the steps to defend yourself. I'm not advocating making this a dogfight, but if you do not meet her on a level playing field and make her understand that continuing down this road will cost her as well, emotionally, financially - whatever, she is unlikely to consider alternatives.
I am not simply telling you to man up, get an attorney and get divorced. What I am telling you, is that if don't step up, don't get an attorney, and simply remain passive, hurt, and pleading - you will absolutely end up divorced.


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## Help239

Please someone tell me they had success using this method> it sounds counter-productive. Did it work in your situation?

Are you telling me giving her a week or 2 to "think about it" with her out of the house will NOT work? Giving her "space" will work as badly as reaching out to her?

What about church? what about a neutral counselor?


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## Deejo

No, no, I don't mean that at all.

Yes, give her space. That is a much better choice.

But don't sit on your hands waiting for her to decide whether or not she wants to take a step back.

Sadly, nobody here can tell you what absolutely will or will not work. I'm guilty of often saying 'I guarantee' and it's not true. What we state is based upon and colored by our own experience.

You can do everything absolutely right - and still have it not work out. 
Like I mentioned earlier, if she has asked for space, then the best option is to give it.

Pursue whatever options you choose for _yourself_, but until you get buy-in from your spouse about going to a therapist, or clergy, it's premature, and from her perspective - presumptuous.

Given current circumstances, I really don't think you are helping your situation by avoiding seeking out an attorney. You need somebody clear-headed, knowledgeable, and that has your interests at heart prepared to give you information and defend your rights and perspective.

*To answer your question:

No, pursuing didn't work for me - it made things much much worse. Backing off, not calling and pursuing my own agenda helped keep me focused instead of curled up in the fetal position. They notice - it's as simple as that. The less you ask questions or show them that your heart is broken the more likely it is that they will at least engage you. And yes, it is counter-intuitive. 

We did counseling, and separated - she pursued another relationship. Via counseling, we determined that neither was willing to do what was required to save the marriage. She wanted her freedom - which would include continuing to interact with the man she was sleeping with, and I insisted that she give up the part-time business where she met him. Impasse. So I chose to pull the plug.


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## Help239

sorry to hear it didn't work out for you. I hope kids weren't involved. She thinks I'm using the impact on the kids as a guilt trip. My real intent was to try to communicate what the impact of her actions are on the kids. Therefore, stop what you are doing so we can work it out and stop hurting the kids.


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## Help239

Man, I feel like crap. For the last 5 days I have been nice to her. I have helped her run errands at her request even though she maintains she could have done it all without me. She's nice during the day them WHAM a really different person at night. Needs her space, leaves for the evening, and comes back home before I leave for work. I keep thinking she'l come around. I have about 10 days before our court date. I am a loser.....really, I am.


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## Help239

Update:

Been at a hotel for about a week now because she needed space. Waiting for her decision on whether or not to pull the papers......agonizing over this. Hard to concentrate on work.


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## Help239

Back home, after a week away it looks like she still cannot see past all of the water under the bridge. I am trying to play it cool but I am scared to death. Just trying to listen to her and support her. Even if she wants to continue down the road to divorce.


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## seeking sanity

No advice, but wanted to give you some support. Hang in there, and try not to let her moods kill your spirit. Whether you make it or not, you still need a life and some happiness. One thing that many of the divorce experts say is to work on yourself. It may make you more attractive to your wife, but if not, it will help you navigate the divorce.

Deejo said it well:



> No, pursuing didn't work for me - it made things much much worse. Backing off, not calling and pursuing my own agenda helped keep me focused instead of curled up in the fetal position. They notice - it's as simple as that. The less you ask questions or show them that your heart is broken the more likely it is that they will at least engage you. And yes, it is counter-intuitive.


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## Help239

Had child custody mediation today and for the first time saw what she wanted (I was never served as I did not accept the papers).

100% physical custody with me stopping by weekends. I almost had a meltdown. I am a good father to our kids. I kept my cool and by the end of the session the counselor recommended 50/50 physical. She was not happy.

I believe my wife is wanting to reclaim some of her youth because she's coming home at 130a and hangin out with single friends. This is a total slap in the face to me and also is not the lifestyle she will be able to lead as a single parent. Pawning off the kids to a babysitter will not sit well with me.

She has no idea how she will support herself and the kids if this divorce is finalized. She actually stated in the meeting that her life is the only one that will change. How self-centered. What about the lives of our children?

Even after all of this, I still want her back. We have not officially separated but she has on her own level.


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## Deejo

If you knew there was another man in the picture does that change what you want? 

Knowing that she is hell-bent to tank this thing, I am hoping you find the strength to fight back and knock her on her a$$.

There comes a point where 'playing nice' gets you nothing - or less than nothing, it simply costs you more.

Don't mean to sound like I am attacking you - I want to offer support. If it appeared that she was conciliatory at all, I wouldn't be suggesting a 'fight', but something tells me that once she knows you are serious as a heart attack about fighting her every step of the way - she is going to change her attitude. If she doesn't, you are still taking the right position.

And yes, I have 2 kids. Seven year old, special needs son, and a four year old daughter. There are no issues between us where the kids are concerned. Frankly, my spouse and I don't have anywhere near the animosity that your spouse has for you. Still, the bond is broken - and I have no confidence that she would take the appropriate steps to repair it.


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## Help239

I have been nothing but an open book for a month. I have made every concession. All along, I have confirmed with her that she in "confused" about her choice and might reconsider. Today at mediation she hits me over the head with "No I know what I want and that isn't you". So, she's been leading me along untl this point. 

Now I know why. She wanted full physical custody. 

Playing nice time is over. I need to protect my rights and my kids too. They need me in their lives. She is hell bent on ending this.

I have basically wasted 30 days. My only regret is the last week when I stayed away from my kids entirely because she wanted her "space". That was a lie. Especially if she already knew what she wanted.

She has no plan. No answers when the mediator asked how she was going to pay for an apartment, support the kids, her health insurance, etc. She was basically betting on the fact that she would get ful custody and a crap load of $$. Nevermind that my current job ends in a few weeks.

She spends her evenings out with her single friends. I'm pretty sure she's going to bars. She hasn't worn her wedding ring in months and says she's an adult and doesn't ned to tell me where she as been. No respect.

I have some suspicions about another man. She denies it of course.

To answer your question, that is the only thing I have ever said would cause me to reconsider our partnership. Am I stupid for reconsidering? 

She just left to "move in" with her single high school friend who has never been married. She spends too much of her time between boyfriends. Whenever she leaves she never says goodbye. That USED to hurt. Now it just pisses me off because she never even tells the kids goodbye and they miss her when I'm tucking them in and reading books.

I am so mad right now.....but I tried my best, I really did. Too little, to late? It's never too late!


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## seeking sanity

Help - She is totally checked out and no amount of being nice is going to change that. If I was a betting man, there's a good chance another man is involved. 

I went through something similar: Lot's of late nights avoiding me, talk of a "trial" separation, me desperately trying to fight to win her back and bending over backwards to fix things, while meanwhile another man was romancing the sh*t out of her. It ended with her moving out, a 1 year separation, and a boat load of grief and pain. 

I hope this isn't the case for you, but at this point your only play is to back off, protect yourself, be calm and firm, and don't let her see you get emotional. Your strength and cool head, regardless of what comes to light, is your biggest asset. 

I made a huge mistake of begging and crying in front of her after the affair came to light. Now is the time to be strong. ***** to your buddies, make a life for yourself, but don't let her see you weak.


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## knortoh

What's happening ? where are you with negotiations?
OITC's story is really amazing - have you read his posts ? He is speaking pure sense and honesty to you ....


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## Help239

I'm in the gutter. Life is no longer worth living. The only reason I'm still typing is my kids need me. I found out this morning at 130a when my wife decided not to come home again that she's having a EA with a neighbor we used to have 10 years ago. She called him a dozen times today. Once was for 36 minutes while I took our son to get a haircut.

Yesterday at child mediation, she asked for full pysical custody and I only get 2 weekends per month. I convinced the female mediator that I am an able and willing father. My wife was pissed wen she said she was going to recommend 50/50 physical. Then I find out this am that the FIRST person she calls after we walk out of family court is this GUY. Not her best girlfriend, not the high school girlfriend she's been staying with, not family, this piece of white trash. OMG!!!!!!!!!!


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## seeking sanity

I'm so sorry Help. If she's staying out, it's probably not just an EA. You are going to go through hell for the next bit, feel intense jealousy, rage, hatred, self-loathing, misery... I've been exactly where you are at, and as the truth comes out, it's going to feel like it can't get worse, and then it will. 

It's time to protect yourself, don't back down on 50/50 custody, learn as much as you can about infidelity (survivinginfidelity.com is a good source), I found the more I understood about her mindselt, and where she is at emotionally, the less I took it personally. Affairs are like any addiction, and the "addicts" are in denial about it. They all act crazy, lie, use, and become non-recognizable.

You are a strong guy, and you'll get through it. Arm yourself with knowledge. Just realize that she is not your friend or ally right now. Loving detachment, and self-preservation.


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## Help239

She had the guys number programmed as a wireless number of the friend she is staying with so it looked like her girlfriend was calling. I cannot believe she's being so self centered and selfish. She is ruining our kids lives for her own self fulfillment.

And the guy is married!


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## Help239

I cannot believe I left the kids at home with her and went to work. What the hell am I doing?


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## seeking sanity

You can assume that most/everything she tells you for the next while will be lies. She's in full affair mode and it's ugly.

Oh, and don't give up your sources of info. Protect how you know the information you have, it will come back to bite you as she'll just get better at hiding things.


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## knortoh

Help - you are in shock - 
bit by bit things will fall into place -
you'll get those kids at the very least 50/50 and very probably a lot more - if she is off on her own 'not havng to answer to anyone' trip she won't have much energy for kids -
stay strong for the kids - think about what you would like in an ideal world and slowly work towards it - she be as angry as she likes doesn't mean she'll get what she wants -


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## Help239

She ended up in the ER due to a self inflicted wound while I was asked to watch the kids. No problem except they wanted to make sure mom was ok. A family friend drove her down to ER and I was told the same person would bring her back. Imagine my surprise when I decide to take the kids to ER and guess who's sitting in the waiting room? You got it. I told the son-of-a-b to get the hell out and that my kids were present.


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## Help239

I told my lawyer this afternoon 50 /50 but I changed my mind 75/25.


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## knortoh

Great!


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## Deejo

Two things:

I am glad that you have found your voice, your anger, and the strength and conviction to defend your interests and the interests of your kids.

Second, I am so sorry that you have had to do any of these things - and make the discoveries you have made.

Nobody wants this. Not ever.


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## Help239

She called him immediately after our child mediation appt. when she asked for 100% physical (me only 2 weekends a month) and instead was told 50 /50 would be recommended by the counselor.

She has texted him over 200 times in 3 days.

I have a picture of them about to kiss that he sent me to spite me.

She swears it isn't physical yet. I really don't care.

She left our 4 kids ALONE in the hotel room two nights in a row from 10p to at least 1a - while on vacation - she was at the House of Blues. Probaby to meet him.

I am really getting angry at what my kids are telling me about her behavior. Mind you, I only ask what happened and put the pieces together myself.

If this is how she behaves WHEN she HAS the kids, that is not healthy for them. 75 /25 is the MOST I am willing to give her. She can party herself into the ground for the 3 weeks I have the kids. I'm sure it will get old.


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## wren

Dear god, help. I can not imagine what I'd do or how I'd feel. I hope everything works out in your favor regarding the kids!


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## Corpuswife

Help: I've read your thread. Hang in there. This will be the "ugly" part....the divorce. Her brain is overtaken by this affair. Don't expect her to do the right thing.

You will have to negotiate on the behalf of your children. What is she doing leaving 4 kids alone in the hotel room. I'm not sure of their ages but why take them in the first place?

My good friend told me recently...."when someone divorces you in their heart...the piece of paper is nothing at this point."


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## Help239

I received a picture from the OM - them kissing. He took the pic. I just sent it to her with a note. Not angry, just firm. I basically said he can do no wrong in her eyes and I cannot do anything right. Despite the path she has chosen, I am here if she needs support. Yes, the picture ripped my heart to shreads am I cannot stop the pain. But I need to be strong for my kids.

We went down south to see her at her trade show (Fri-Sun) last night. The kids wanted to make sure she was alright. Due to her knee injury, she opted out of dinner so the kids and I went to eat at the hotel restaurant. She was naseous from the meds and an empty stomach so I brought back a salad and ice tea. While we were at dinner she was calling and texting the OM. After I left last night telling her I got the picture, she asked me to send it to her as proof (she maintained nothing physical has happened) so I said I would forward it to her. She talked to him all night.

Then this morning she locked me out of the online account. I think that is for the best. Everytime I looked at the hundreds of texts per day and the dozens of phone calls, it killed me a little bit more. This guy is ending his marriage as well. 

My kids are still asleep and I cannot stop crying. She is so much better than this but I have to accept that if she needs to hit rock bottom before waking up, I cannot do anything but wait and be there if she has a change of heart.

I have shunned my immediate family since she filed at her request (she hates them), I have not talked to any friends about this, and this board has been my only outlet and I appreciate everybody for their support.


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## seeking sanity

This is the really hard part. It's going to last 6-18 months. There is no guaranteed she'll ever have a change of heart even if/when the affair runs it's course. 

What helped me was realizing that she is, essentially, drug addicted right now, since she's experiencing the high of "falling in love". In reality the chemical stew going through her body doesn't have much to do with love, and is simply a biological attachment response probably designed to keep human's making babies. 

Real love is, after all, a choice we make. An action, and deliberate, not just some feeling. Unfortunately the high of that false, superficial "falling in love" is overwhelming, and she doesn't want it to end.

I found this link that explains the Physiology of Love. Doesn't excuse her behavior, but may help you make sense of it:

Physiology of Love 

PS: The OM is piece of sh*t. You should tell his wife, if she doesn't already know.


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## Help239

He's probably doing a god job of breaking up his marriage already. I do not need to cause HER anymore pain.


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## seeking sanity

That's not true. There is more pain in lies than truth. You have no idea what he's saying/telling his wife. She has a right to the truth, just as you do. Getting an affair out in the open often helps speed things up.

One of my big regrets is that I kept my ex's affair from the OM's wife. she eventually found out and it was much worse for her (plus it prolonged things.)


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## StrongEnough

I disagree. I don't see what good will come of him talking to the OM's wife. What is there to talk about really? They are both adults who have made their decisions to destroy their families due to their own selfish desires. I don't feel that he has any obligation to talk with the OM's wife. It is the OM place to handle that...


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## seeking sanity

What good will come? She will have information to make choices for herself. The core issue of lying is that it robs the other person of choice. We have no idea what the OM is telling his wife, or the personal hell she is going through. He could be playing her, trying to keep her available like Help's wife is doing to him, while he pursues this relationship. We can't know. Giving her the gift of truth allows her to make decisions for herself.

Also, I was thinking of the photo that guy sent of them kissing. That's really screwed up, and cruel. That guy is a monster. At this point, I think your best shot at sanity is to do a complete 180 and don't even speak with your WW. Cut her off from anything but the absolute minimum interaction until she is willing to stop lying and screwing with you.


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## StrongEnough

She will have the information to make her own decision. I do see your point, but I don't think that Help can handle any additional issues right now. His responsibility is his children and as far as the OM's wife, he owes her nothing. I understand what you are saying, I do, but I don't see that it will help in this situation.

Yes, I agree. That photo is screwed up. The OM and his wife are already divorcing according to Help. I too suggest that he not even speak with her and to cut her off. The OM is baiting him and if he calls OM's wife, he is just buying into the crap and OM will get the reaction he wants.


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## Help239

She wanted proof he sent it to me so I forwarded the pic to her. She stil trusts him implicitly and I'm a lying sack of sh*t. I always thought that when a cheater is confronted with the truth they break down and fess up. Not in this case. It has only made her resent me more.

I wouldn't even know how to find the OM's wife. I pray she isn't going thru this much pain.


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## seeking sanity

> I always thought that when a cheater is confronted with the truth they break down and fess up. Not in this case. It has only made her resent me more.


No it doesn't always work out that way. It's a bitter lesson in all of this. There's a couple of things that may help you understand all this, and help you take it less personally.

1st is the "walk away wife" concept (I think it's a divorcebusters.com idea). Google it. Her behavior is common and many before you have survived it.

2nd, read "The Journey from Abandonment to Healing" and also "Not Just Friends" (on affairs). You can't have too much information.

3rd is that women tend to use an affair as the catalyst to leave the marriage more then men. Sometimes called an exit affair. And the emotional connection and "in love" feelings is more a way to gather strength to leave/create change than meaningful in itself. (in other words, the OM could be ANYONE. There is nothing special about him.)

4th is that she is going to see you through the lens of her guilt and lies, so nothing you do will please her. You need to move past this concept and aim for detachment. Make decisions that are good for YOU, not ones that you perceive will move her closer to you. For example, not telling the OM's wife is way to protect your wife from pain, and preserve the status quo in your relationship. But it's not good for you because the OM gets to control the information on his end of things. It's better for you that there is equal pressure and stress in his world, because, frankly, he's made this mess too and deserves to suffer the consequences fully. (If you are in a fault-state for divorce, infidelity affects divorce outcomes).

Hang in there.


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## seeking sanity

Re: The picture. I don't understand why he sent it to you in the first place.


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## Help239

When I saw him at the ER I told him to get the F out. Then I sent him a text telling him to leave my family alone and that he is messing in things that do not concern him. Asked him to stop textind and calling my wife. He replied with the pic and something along the lines of he was way past talking/texting.


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## StrongEnough

He wants a reaction out of you. Don't play that game. You are better than that.


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## Deejo

Save the text and the picture. Show your attorney. The dipsh!t actually provided you with proof of, and basically confessed to adultery.

Don't know if you have 'fault' divorce in your state - but I would consult with your lawyer.


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## Help239

no fault - doesn't mean squat except he's a d*ck and she's crazy.


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## Help239

I spoke to our oldest today. Missed church because of it but I felt as if she was going to come apart at the seams if I didn't. She's a smart cookie and could tell she was keeping something botted up inside. She said she pretty much figured out about the divorce and that her mom is being selfish and treating me bad. I asked her if she ever told her mom that and she said her mom sees her crying and asks how she's doing but never lets her finish because she cuts her off by saying "I'm doing this for you guys". Our daughter sees right through that.

I told her, yes, we are in the midst of divorce proceeding but we both love you very much and that will never change. I told her the difference is Dad is trying to work thigs out and Mom doesn't want to fix it. So now that Dad has tried for 30+ days and realizes I need to protect all of the kids, I am going to start working towards that instead of trying to make Mom happy.

She cried, I cried. I told her I still loved Mom but am not sure about the other way around. I told her what Mom asked for and she said that wasn't fair. I told her what I asked for and she said that sounds better but she really wants us both all of the time. That broke my heart. 

I told her she and her siblings will always be here because this is our home. Mom and Dad will just be here with them at different times.

It's not right that my wife isn't letter her voice her emotions. She's keeping them bottled up and I could tell because of how she was acting. I think the talk did wonders. I hope I did the right thing.


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## Deejo

Even with no fault, I'm pretty sure adultery has an impact on whether or not, or how much, alimony you are responsible for.

As for the kids, I would usually counsel that both you and your wife talk to them calmly. However, this broad is absolutely off the rails.

I would suggest taking them to a few of your counseling sessions and deal with it there. Inform your wife and tell her she is welcome. I'm going to take a wild guess that she will freak, or make matters worse by trying to 'sell' the kids her story. Honestly, at this point I wouldn't do anything that didn't involve a third party where she is concerned. Do you plan on recommending that she moves out?


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## Help239

I guess that depends on how you define adultery. According to her she said her attorney told her she can have as much fun and as many boyfriends as she wants because as soon as she filed we were no longer "responsible" to each other. I find that statement morally objectionable. 

She herself then added - we've only been kissing. I find that stomach turning.

The current recommendation until our next court date is same household - separate rooms - which drove her absolutely crazy.


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## Help239

Today I feel really depressed. There's a big sucking wound where my heart is supposed to be. I now know she's been manipulating me since she filed and has been with the OM a few weeks before that date. 

The rejection is hard, but the emotional rollercoaster is what's eating me up inside. She nice, so I feel like there's a chance. Then if I falter and stand up for what's right, she's a mean as they come.


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## Help239

I asked her today why she attached to another man so quickly. I asked if she had feelings for him. She said she didn't know. I asked if she felt anythig but resentment towards me, she said NO. She has checked out. She's with this OM and doesn't even know why. She's not the person I remember. I think she's going thru a mid life crisis and cannot see it.

She can blame me for everything, and she is faultless. I'm not buying it. Some of the stuff she says happened never did. She has made up situations or changed details so her mind will show her as in the right while I am a always in the wrong. 

I feel so sad for my kids. Thanksgiving and Christmas - what a lousy time to go through this - as if there was ever a good time.

I am so mad at her for making this decision. She is putting herself before everyone - even our kids. Yet she says she is doing this for them. 

I cannot believe she asked my why I couldn't just stay the course and continue working and paying ALL of the bills while she gets the kids 100% and I visit 2 weekends a month because "that's the way it usually works". 

Reality check - you want out, you get a job and see how it has been on my side of the street for the past 20 years. I'm not minimizing what her contribution is, not at all. I just think I will have an easier time adjusting because I already have been responsible in that respect for quite some time after she checked out.


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## seeking sanity

Help - It's called blameshifting when a wayward spouse starts inventing excuses for his/her behavior. Basically she's trying to rationalize her behavior to herself. It's all bs, but she's not receptive to hearing that right now.

There's a link you might find helpful:

SurvivingInfidelity.com - Support for those affected by Infidelity


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## Help239

Thanks for the link. I took the EA quiz (#38) for her....7/8. I'm sure it is or will be a PA soon. Nothing I can do about that.


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## Help239

She has not been home for almost 2 weeks. The kids are feeling it. They want to know where she is at night and why she isn't reading them bedtime stories. I have been doubling up on chapters to make up for it. I have them call her nightly to say goodnight. Sometimes she picks up, sometimes they leave a message.

On my 10th load of laundry for the week. The kids were kind enough to help me sort through the mountain of clothes so I could distinguish what belonged to whom. 

Planning ahead, I asked someone to come over and give me a quote for housecleaning - twice a month would be $140. I think I'll let my pool guy and lanscape guy go so I can afford her. The pool and yard work will let me work off some frustration.


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## seeking sanity

Buddy this part is really tough: You're learning to be a single parent, and having to invent new systems. A housecleaner helps immensly. (The best part of my week is tuesday evenings when I come home from work and the house is clean. Feels great.) I found that focusing on creating systems got me through the overwhelm. A shopping system, laundry system, etc. I also methodically went through the house, purged it of all the crap, and started making it the way I wanted. It felt like I was taking control of my environment.

Your W is going to be in her delusional state for probably 6-18 months. Heck, my ex just posted on her blog about how she wishes she could go back in time and not take the actions she took. That's 2+ years out. Eventually she will deep regret for what she's done, but it will probably be too late for you at that point. In the short term, focus on getting in control of your environment.

(As an aside, I'm a WAY more involved parent now than I was 2+ years ago. A much better dad with a much better relationship with my kids. It's one of the blessings in all of this.)


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## Help239

At this point I'd take her back if she asked for my forgiveness. At this point I'd wait 6-18 months for her to do so. I'm sure that will change over time but I cannot picture a time when I wouldn't take her back.

I have a hard enough time trying NOT to picture the two of them together. It disgusts me.

The custody battle will be nasty. She tried to pull a fast one but luckily I hired an attorney at the last minute. She even blames me for doing that - she wanted me to use hers to mediate.

I wake up every morning and there's nobody lying next to me. Then it all comes flooding back and the emptiness grabs ahold of my heart and tears it up all over again. When the kids wake up I feel better but the hurt turns into sadness. I have lost 20 lbs in the last 1.5 months. I am in a downward spiral.

Thanks to all of you for your support. I pray to God she comes to her senses sooner rather than later.


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## wren

Help, no matter what happens....please, please, please take good care of you. Let yourself feel but also take care of yourself physically.


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## Help239

I will. Just trying to get back up after she threw me under a bus.


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## Help239

Spent the better part of this evening calmly discussing our options making it clear that I am moving forward with or without her. She expressed hurt at some of the things that have happened recently and have caused her to move further away from me. I hope I struck a cord within her. She is about to take this to the next level....one that there might be a point of no return.


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## Nanook

What next level are you talking about, divorce? Good that she knows you are moving forward with our without her, I think they hold onto the fact that if they mess up, we might still be waiting for them, I made that mistake by saying that to my hubby, but will let him know, that when he leaves to go to work after being home for 3 weeks, I will not wait for him, and I will wish him luck, as hard as it will be to say, I have to.
You did well, I bet it was not easy, now gather all your energy again for the next time, I am sure you feel drained.
take care


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## Help239

No, she already filed in Oct. The next level is going on a short trip with the OM because of something I did to upset her. She maintains they have only kissed and if that's true, she only agreed to go with him to get back at me. She said she was going to tell me right before they went (to maximize the pain). But the fact that she opened up to me and told me beforehand tells she has doubts. Am I reading into this?

I know she is vulnerable right now and this bastard will take advantage of that if he gets her alone.


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## seeking sanity

Help, sorry to tell you this but they are already having sex. You are in denial, and when you find out how/when it started it will be worse for you.

It took me a LONG time to realize I couldn't control her. I'd do things with the goal of preventing her from seeing him, or prevent them from having sex, but it never worked. It was a false sense of control and just drove me deeper and deeper into my depression and sadness.

The only thing you can do is detach. Stop asking her what she's doing, where she's going, etc. Appear disinterested in her plans. Create your own life. If she brings it up, don't get baited into a conversation, just try to offer impartial observations and then let it go. When she tells you she is going on a trip, you might say: "He must be a great guy that you'd be able to move on so fast. Don't you worry that you are using him to avoid mourning the end of our marriage." And then walk away.

The damn has been breached and there is no way to contain it until the initial flood waters have passed. I'm sorry.


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## Help239

I know I'm being played the fool. But I must hold onto what's left of my marriage. I cannot believe she would move so fast inside of 30 days.

In any case, even if they are, I am still prepared to forgive if she wants to receive it. I will not let adultery ruin our marriage and forsake our kids.


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## seeking sanity

I get that. I've said and felt exactly the same way. What I'm saying is that the FASTEST way to save this thing if it is savable, is to detach. She's not able to hear you right now. She's in a deep fog, totally lost, and justifying her behavior by demonizing you. The more you pursue, the worse it gets.

Below are two articles that may help. (Source Infidelity! Cheating spouse Cheating husbands Infidelity Extramarital Affairs - adultery and divorce Signs of a cheating spouse Surviving marital infidelity, extramarital affairs Adultery sign)



> 7 Powerful Tactics to Break Free From the Affair and Stop it NOW
> 
> Follow these 7 suggestions and I guarantee great results. I guarantee that you will feel exceedingly better, and I also guarantee that your spouse WILL NOTICE. If you want to STOP your spouse from having the affair, these are your best strategies, by far. They work.
> 
> With that said, let me also stress that this is not an easy road, but is probably easier than you might think right now. These strategies work beautifully for most kinds of affairs. I would guess that they are effective in 75% of affairs. They are least likely to work with philanderers and those entrenched in strong addictive kinds of behaviors.
> 
> Also know that these strategies demand strength, energy and emotional control. Are you there? Are you strong enough to control your feelings, to maintain positive thoughts about yourself, at least most of the time? You may not be.
> Discovery of the affair usually takes a tremendous toll on one’s self esteem and emotional vitality. You might need propping. You might need to develop your strength and internal confidence before, or at least during, the time you try on these 7 strategies.
> 
> If you are not there, don’t worry and don’t berate yourself. There are resources to help build and prepare you for these strategies. It is normal to be devastated, angry, lost and confused. But you can, and will, move on.
> 
> One more thing...and this is a little tricky. Do not use these strategies as a manipulative tool to change what your spouse is doing. He/she will pick up on your motive and see through it. He/she will easily manipulate you back to where he/she
> wants you (wherever that was to make you predictable and controllable.)
> 
> You engage in these exercises and strategies because you want to, for you. You know that this is the best way to live and at this point, be in a relationship with your spouse.
> This is the best way for you to survive and retain integrity.
> Here’s the kicker. A by-product of these efforts is usually dramatic change on the part of your spouse. Don’t be surprised if he/she moves closer. Don’t be surprised if he/she does a double-take. Don’t be surprised if he/she decides to “work on the marriage.” But, don’t expect it!
> 
> Here they are:
> 
> 1) Act Happy. Be as cheerful as possible. Be positive. Put on this behavior when you have contact with your spouse. Prepare yourself to act this way. Practice if need be. Be an actor/actress if need be. Fake it, if you must. Fake it until you truly do get to the point where you experience your life as positive. (It really is, you know!)
> 
> 2) Get a life. Rekindle old hobbies or interests that you have discarded but still interest you. Try out new hobbies or interests. Think about what you really liked doing when you were 6 years old. Start doing that. (One coaching client “gave up dancing,” which was a passion, for her family and husband. Once she discovered his affair, she took it up again. She loved it. It was therapeutic. But, boy did he have a problem with it!).
> 
> 3) Focus on 4 key words. Every day, every hour and every minute if need be, plaster your mind with these 4 life-saving words: I WILL MAKE IT! This becomes your mantra. Wake up with it. Put it on your mirror. Eat lunch with it. Go to sleep with it. Tell; convey in every which way to your spouse that you WILL MAKE IT.
> 
> Say, “I will make it! I prefer to make it with you (if that is what you REALLY want), but if that doesn’t happen, I will make it without you. Either way, I want you to know that I will make it.” State with erect, confident body language, unblinking, direct eye contact and calm, firm, consistent tone of voice.
> 
> 4) To-the-point small talk. Make conversations with your spouse brief and to the point. Talk only about the solutions to specific problems that need to be addressed, such a particular bills, household or children concerns. Let silence prevail if he/she wants to “hook” you into melodrama. Politely but firmly end such conversations.
> 
> 5) Tend to agree. Try to find the kernel of truth in what your spouse is saying and agree with it. Acknowledge it. He/she says, “I don’t love you anymore.” You say, “It certainly seems that way. Thank you for your truthfulness.”
> 
> He/she says, “I’m not sure what I want.” You say, “Yes, it must be confusing for you.” He/she says, “I’m thinking of moving out.” You say, “Do you have an idea of when you’re going to do that? Knowing would help me plan for my activities.”
> 
> 6) Expand your social relationships, including those of the OPPOSITE SEX. Make new friends. Go to lunch. Surround yourself with interesting people who have the potential to care about you. Rekindle old friendships that have faded. With the opposite sex? Yes! I’m not talking about a revenge affair or sleeping with someone.
> 
> I’m not talking about dating. I’m talking about being friends and learning about you and how you relate, especially to those of the opposite sex.
> 
> 7) Get sexy – in a healthy way. Get in shape. Lose weight. Run. Walk. Exercise. Eat right. Enjoy your body. Take supplements. Take extreme care of your body. Begin to feel healthy...and healthy is sexy.
> 
> Focus on one of these tactics and begin now. Don’t wait.
> 
> • 12 Unattractive, Ugly, Typical Tactics Most People Use to Prolong the Affair and Guarantee Their Own Misery
> 
> 1) Say “I love you”
> Saying “I love you,” especially repeatedly, often pushes your spouse away and in essence, probably does not reflect the truth of what you really want to say.
> 
> What does it mean to say, “I love you?” especially at this juncture in your relationship? Do you know? Does he/she?
> The words “I love you” are powerful in the beginning stages of a relationship where they match the underlying powerful feelings of attraction. “I love you” then means: I’m attracted to you. I want to be with you. I experience good feelings when I am with you or think about you.
> 
> Or, the words are powerful later in the relationship when special occasions recall the feelings that brought you together or when the stability of the relationship is temporarily threatened and you express your commitment to your spouse.
> 
> But, when in the midst of dealing with an affair, using the words “I love you” are inadequate and in reality, poor communication. They do not express what you really want to say. Nor does your spouse, who is allegedly “in love” with another person, know what to do with that statement.
> Here are ways your spouse might respond internally when he hears those words from you:
> 
> •	Yeah right! What does she want now? She’s just saying that so I won’t leave. Or, she’s just saying that so I will leave the other woman. She’s using that to manipulate me. So, I will walk away or not say anything.
> 
> •	He loves ME? Yeah right! How can he love me when I do something like this? It doesn’t make sense. Who would love someone who fools around on them? If he fooled around on me, I know I wouldn’t love him.
> 
> •	Hey, this is cool! I got two of them wanting me. Man, it feels great to be pursued by two people. It is great to be loved by two people. (This may not be acknowledged but it might lie behind a need to continue the soap opera drama.)
> 
> •	She loves me? What is the world does that mean? What is she trying to say when she says that? I don’t understand. Is that all she can say? Isn’t there more she needs to say to me? How am I to respond? Say, “I love you too?” Geezzz Louise, it’s not that simple.
> 
> •	I hate it when he says, “I love you.” That really makes him unattractive. He seems so sickeningly needy when he says that. And, that really turns me off. When he says it, I think of a whining lost little boy who needs reassurance. Sorry, but I’m not there. I don’t want to be a mother.
> 
> What are you really saying? Here are some possibilities. Do any fit?
> 
> •	“I love you,” means I need you. My life is incomplete or insufficient without you. I have little clue of who I am outside of you and I need you to define who I am. I cannot think of having a life of my own.
> 
> •	“I love you” means don’t leave me. I’m afraid of life on my own. I am terrified of what might happen. Tell me you love me, and that you will be there for me so I don’t have to think of making my own way. Calm my fears, because I’m not sure I can.
> 
> •	“I love you,” means I’m a wimp. I don’t want to rock the boat. I don’t really want to confront you with what I’m really thinking and feeling. I don’t want to take a stand and say ENOUGH. I will tolerate almost anything.
> 
> •	“I love you,” means I’m sad. It feels sad to see the relationship and dreams crumble. It’s sad to feel the distance, mistrust, pain and agony. It’s sad to think of that which might never happen. It’s sad to think of maybe not growing old with you.
> 
> •	“I love you” means I remember with loving feelings who you were and who I was. I remember who we were. I remember the good times. I remember the way it used to be. I remember what it was like to love and be there for each other. I miss that. I love those memories and maybe, that’s all they are.
> 
> 2) Criticize, complain, whine, nag
> This should be fairly obvious. Criticizing, complaining, whining and nagging are not attractive! Who wants to be around such a person? When I criticize or complain I have a hard time being around myself. This behavior is usually an attempt to deal with the internal tension you feel. You don’t know where to go with the tension, so it seeps out around the edges.
> Something your spouse says or does, and it doesn’t have to be major, will trigger the tension and you spit out the negativity. You may be unaware that it is happening, since it probably is a fairly long-standing habit.
> 
> And, of course, your spouse will respond in his/her typical fashion, probably by moving away or countering you with his/her negativity. Ever feel like you hit a brick wall, time and time again? It hurts, doesn’t it? And, you go nowhere. What would happen if you stopped using criticism, complaining or whining? What could you do instead? What does your criticizing, complaining and nagging supposedly get for you? Give it some thought.
> 
> (Here’s what you might find: You are trying to get something, or you want something to happen or you have some expectation and it’s not there. Can you find a different way to let this person know what you want, what you need or how you would like your life to be, without resorting to something that is absolutely guaranteed to give you the opposite of what you truly desire?)
> 
> 3) Say “I’ve changed”
> In an attempt to persuade a spouse to stop an affair or restore a relationship you may use the ploy, “But I’ve changed I’m a different person.” And your behavior may truly be different – most of the time. You try to accommodate in ways you haven’t tried before or you alter your behavior to fit your perception of what he/she wants you to do. Here are some problems with this strategy:
> 
> •	Is it true? Have you really changed or are you in a reactive mode? You are reacting to a painful situation by trying on different behaviors. There is nothing wrong with this. Actually you are to be commended. It probably takes a great deal of energy and conscious thought to alter, especially in a drastic manner, some of your habits.
> •	If you continue the new behaviors they may gradually sink in and truly become a part of you. However, these changes usually lack staying power because they are born out of reactivity.
> •	You will return to the old patterns, especially when the heat is off. And, your spouse intuitively knows this. He/she thinks, “This will never last” and is highly suspicious.
> •	Your change will probably be viewed by your spouse as an attempt to manipulate. He/she will perceive your change as a strategy on your part to get him/her to change. If your spouse felt “cornered” before, the feelings will be greater now. Your spouse will most likely resent these changes, even though these very behaviors are what he/she has been asking for all the previous years. More distance will emerge.
> •	You will lose credibility. Your spouse will not believe you or will not know what to believe about you. In 80% of the affairs, my experience and analysis tells me that confusion reigns.
> Your spouse is very confused about what he/she wants. By faking or trying on changed behaviors, you are only adding to the confusion. The message you are sending is NOT CLEAR.
> •	You will lose respect. Bottom line: people don’t want other people to try to please or placate them. They just don’t respect that kind of strategy. There is no backbone. There is no core self from which you express yourself and take a firm stand. That is not very attractive.
> 
> Here’s a common response I encounter: If you can change so easily now, why didn’t you change when I wanted you to change back then? It’s too late now. Some sadness or resentment may emerge as he/she encounters the new behavior, thinking about what could have been, but is no longer seen as possible.
> 
> 4) Argue, Reason, Plead
> You may believe that the more persistent you are in trying to get your spouse to “understand,” the better off you may be. Not always true. Usually, the harder you try to get your point across, the deeper you drive the wedge into the relationship.
> An affair is not based on logic. One’s quest to “find him/herself” through an affair has little to do with reason. The allure of the other person, whatever that allure might be, has little respect for reason, logic and thinking and talking something through together.
> 
> So you may attempt to reason with your partner about seeing the other person, where your partner goes, how he/she spends time, spending more time with the children, how to handle finances and pay the bills and other issues related to your life together, or your lack of life together.
> 
> The two of you swirl. It’s as if you have been there, done that countless times before. You can predict what he/she will say, can predict your response to his/her response can, in turn, predict how he/she will respond to your response of his/her response. Sound familiar? You bang into a communication wall filled with the same old nasty feelings and thoughts you’ve encountered before. And you end in the same fashion; He/she walks away (which gives an “excuse” to run to the arms of someone else.)
> 
> Arguing, reasoning and pleading keep the focal point on each other. It keeps the relationship bound together (we call it enmeshment) in a powerfully negative and destructive way. You merely continue to rehash the old stuff with the same fruitless outcome.
> 
> 5) Get friends and family involved
> It is not uncommon to look for an ally. But, more than an ally, you may look for someone who will be your eyes and ears, and perhaps mouthpiece.
> 
> You may seek out an informant. You quiz others about what your spouse is saying and doing. You pump for information. You may look for signs of hope and hang intently on every word of your ally.
> 
> Or, you might enlist a friend or family member to be your mouthpiece. You encourage them to talk to your spouse and hammer some “sense” into this wayward creature. You give them all the information they need to be persuasive.
> Unfortunately, many people seem to get off on this. There is an element of drama, suspense and mystery that hooks people into being what they think is helpful. They may be all too willing to join you in your drama.
> 
> Getting friends and family involved only worsens your situation. Three people emotionally involved and invested in a relationship form a triangle. Ever watch soap operas? A soap opera is inherently two people talking about a third or two aligned and plotting against the third. There is a lot of juice stirred up, but the relationships are not healthy (unless the triangle is broken).
> 
> With such a triangle, you only perpetuate a bad situation. What is an affair?
> 
> Basically, it’s a triangle: two aligned against the outsider. Adding more triangles to the mix only increases the possibility for a more powerful explosion. (There are some pretty complicated systems or family therapy concepts involved which I won’t get into. Only to let you know that they exist, and that the triangle serves as a basis for some of these concepts.)
> To break free from the affair, it is crucial that you and your spouse face one another and begin stating your positions, your needs, your desires, your beliefs, the feelings you. With this process you begin unraveling the story of your respective lives.
> 
> 6) Act helpless, depressed
> Talk about unattractive. It takes a tremendous amount of energy for someone to be in relationship with a person who consistently acts helpless and depressed. People, over time, become weary of being around such a person. Do you like being around a depressed person?
> 
> Here’s the kicker though: Acting helpless and depressed can get mileage. Some people seek out depressing people because it gives them good feelings to take care of someone, or they get a feeling of being a little superior. In the meantime the depressed and helpless person gets a lot of attention and care.
> The helpless or poor me syndrome is also a tool to control the other person. After all, you don’t want to get too upset with a depressed person. They can’t handle that, right? Or, worst case scenario, might they harm themselves, because they are so fragile?
> 
> At some point the caretaker begins to pull away from the relationship and resolves not to be a part of that cycle. An affair might be the unconscious strategy (albeit, a not very bright strategy) to cope with one’s inability to confront the depressed person with his/her true self.
> 
> Acting depressed or helpless in the aftermath of an affair may be a longstanding pattern, only intensified at this point, in your relationship with your partner. It no longer works effectively, but you might turn up the volume a little louder, acting more helpless and depressed, to make your point and get him/her back.
> 
> Question: If it does work and your partner comes back, is that the kind of relationship you want? Do you relish the idea of playing the victim/helpless role the rest of your life to control and maintain a relationship? Probably not. At least, I wouldn’t want that for you.
> 
> So you say you really are depressed? OK, fair enough. Some people do suffer from the clinical definition of depression. If you do, don’t wait one more minute. Call your family doctor and ask for a referral to get some help. Assume responsibility
> for your illness.
> 
> Discover who you really are beneath the depression so you have a true self to offer to your spouse or someone else. Doesn’t that sound much better? I would think your partner would think so.
> 
> 7) Give up opposite sex relationships
> If your partner is involved in an affair, you most likely have the tendency to shun people of the opposite sex. There are a number of reasons for this.
> 
> First, you probably do not feel very attractive or desirable. As I’ve noted in other writings, being on the receiving end of an affair dumps self-esteem down the toilet. Even if you had an interest in pursuing a relationship, this would get in the way.
> An interesting phenomenon I observe very frequently is that the spouse having the affair sends a subtle or not so subtle message that only he/she is allowed to have an extramarital relationship. It is his/her domain.
> 
> If the offended partner begins a relationship with a person of the opposite sex, the person having the affair may become jealous and disturbed, sometimes extremely so. Make sense? No, but then again, not much about affairs makes sense.
> You may hold back from having an opposite sex relationship because you believe it will only give permission to your partner to continue the affair and provide further ammunition for him/her to actually leave. This does occur, but only in particular kinds of affairs and, I believe, only in a minority of situations. It will NOT be a major factor in his/her decision to truly end the marriage.
> 
> Holding back from developing an opposite sex relationship typically indicates you are doggedly determined to focus on what your partner and what he/she is doing or not doing. You are riveted on this painful elusive relationship. It occupies your every moment and breath. To think of having a life of your own seems terribly foreign.
> 
> When I talk about having a relationship with someone of the opposite sex, I’m NOT talking about dating or sleeping around. Don’t jump off the bridge. But, there is such a thing as a healthy relationship with those of different gender. Actually, it’s fairly important to have those relationships without sexualizing them, or at least trusting yourself and the other person well enough to have a friendship that energizes.
> 
> You can learn a great deal. Your life will be enriched. You will have a life. And, it will be important to have this life in the future, with or without your partner present.
> 
> 8) Get reassurance from your children
> Please don’t intentionally involve your children. Here’s what I mean.
> •	Don’t share information with them about their other parent. •	Don’t try to pry information from them about your spouse. •	Don’t ask (in any way) for them to agree with you, side with you,
> or comfort you. •	Don’t talk about your spouse to them in any way shape or manner.
> •	You can say directly: I’m having a difficult time right now, but I’m doing everything to take care of it and this too shall pass. I will always be here for you.
> Why? This is a difficult time emotionally for your children. They know what is going on, even if they don’t know the details. They need a PARENT(S). Don’t you become the child.
> Remember my talk about triangles? What you have with your children is the potential for more triangles. Someone talking to someone about someone else only perpetuates your pain, creates pain for them, and lowers the possibility of effectively resolving your relationship with your spouse.
> 
> As long as you are mired in triangles, you offer the opportunity for your spouse to perceive you as undesirable and therefore he/she continues the affair. As well, you remain locked in your pain and merely lengthen the time and intensity of your misery.
> Go to other people (adults) for reassurance, comfort, guidance and a listening ear. My site has a rather extensive section that walks you through ways to elicit from your adult friends and family what you need from them. (I have a letter you can send to them on “10 Things I Want From You During Difficult Times).
> The ideal way to beat a triangle is to confront your spouse with your thoughts, your needs, set boundaries, declare yourself, take a stand and in essence, look at him/her eyeball-to-eyeball and say, I won’t live like this. I’m making some shifts and changes. I will make it, either with or without you. But, I guarantee, I will make it.
> 
> 9) Use the Bible or Dr. Laura
> It is a natural impulse to want to beat your wandering spouse over the head, not literally, of course. Well, maybe... (Just kidding. Don’t do it!)
> 
> But, on a number of occasions I’ve run across those who throw Bible verses, selected passages from books or talk show hosts’ comments about the immorality and path of perdition he/she is following by engaging in an affair.
> 
> Now, granted, engaging in an affair is sin because it certainly does miss the mark in terms of having an authentic and truth-filled relationship and it certainly has dire consequences in which the other does walk down a difficult path. However, using this as a weapon to stop the affair brings dubious results at best.
> 
> Think about it. Would you really want him/her to come back to the relationship because of coercion? What would that be like? He/she would be there because of moral compunction, not because they really wanted to be with you. Could you live in a relationship of emotional investment where someone was forced to be with you – out of guilt or trying to abide by some law? Don’t you really want to be wanted?
> 
> Have you ever heard the phrase, “that which you resist, persists?” This concept implies that the more you try to avoid something or work hard to change something, the more power you give it and the possibility for true change diminishes.
> Beating him/her over the head with moral persuasion most likely will increase his/her resolve, if not openly at least internally, to oppose you. Poor strategy!
> 
> Again, we return to a common theme: gathering moral ammunition and blasting away at the other person means you are focusing your energy on him/her. Your best bet is to turn that finger around and be kind, gentle, encouraging, supportive, directive, and caring to your self. Get your emotions and thoughts under control. Plan your strategy for your survival, growth and moving ahead – with our without him/her.
> 
> One more thing: Do you really want to be known as a morally superior person? Most of us do not. I’m not talking about becoming a morally inferior person, i.e. lowering your standards, by any means. I’m suggesting, don’t go into the arena of morality or take a morally righteous position. It’s booby-trapped. You prolong your misery. You lessen hope for a reconciled marriage or workable future relationship with your spouse.
> 
> 10) Suggest counseling
> OK, what’s the deal? A therapist who is recommending that you NOT pursue counseling with your spouse? Yes, exactly. Believe me, I’ve seen hundreds of couples, and counseling when an affair is involved seldom, and I mean real seldom, works.
> 
> In most communities, getting counseling is the thing to do when there are marital problems. Family, friends, clergy and others say, “Have you gotten counseling?” Many spouses agree to attend. It usually lasts for a few sessions, if that.
> He/she often enters counseling guardedly and with little intent to self disclose. He/she usually in some fashion sabotages counseling. It doesn’t work. Here’s the kicker: the person is then able to say, “Well, we got counseling, and it just didn’t work out!” Counseling becomes a rationalization to pull further away.
> 
> Suggesting counseling, because it is socially sanctioned by your community, is perceived by your spouse as coercion. Again, persuasion or coercion usually gets the results you don’t intend and shifts the focus away from where it needs to be – your self care and your ability to take a firm, non-reactive stand and move ahead with your life, with or without him/her.
> So you want to get your spouse into counseling? Here’s your strategy: Say, “I want you to know that I’m getting counseling. There are some changes I want to make for my self. You are basically right, our relationship hasn’t been that cool for me either. I want to learn why I attract the kind of people I do. I want to prepare for my future. I’m going to make it!”
> Depending on the kind of affair that confronts you, this is your best chance for the two of you to resolve the relationship, with counseling being a helpful tool.
> 
> 11) Tell him/her we need to work on the relationship
> This usually means you want to go back to the way the marriage used to be. You remember the good times and your intent is to recapture them. Or, you believe that the two of you, focusing on each other with more purpose, can change the flow of the relationship.
> 
> To do that, you believe you need to try. This often means spending more time together, dating, being more attentive to each other, reading self help books together, buying each other gifts and in general, revisiting the courting stage of the relationship.
> 
> This usually is very uncomfortable. One is the pursuer and the other hedges, forgets or distances. There are constant thoughts of the other person by both parties. The comparison game is played internally, but never talked about openly. The stress and strain oozes beneath the surface.
> The spouse involved with the other person may concede to trying, since it serves basically the same purpose as counseling. He/she can at some point say, “See, we tried and it just didn’t work.” It may ease the guilt or give internal permission to pursue with more vigor, the other person.
> Trying does not get at the truth. Trying is a band-aid that fails to alter the underlying dynamics of the marriage or the individuals. Trying to change the relationship is again, other focused, and this only leads to a deeper sense of being stuck.
> Don’t work on the relationship. Here’s my mantra again: Work on you. No, you don’t even have to work on you. Be you! If you don’t know who you are, find out and then be you. It really is OK. And, it really isn’t that difficult. At least it’s much easier than trying to change another person or a relationship.
> Oh yeah, one more thing. When you are you, stop trying to change someone, especially that which someone in an emotionally invested relationship cannot not change. Think about it!
> 
> 12) Let yourself go to pot
> It is very easy when confronted with a trauma that rocks us to our soul to go back to that, which is ugly, negative, and ultimately self-defeating. We revert to the negative thoughts about our self. We revert to those old negative feelings that rip at our emotions and sometimes tear at our body. We revert to those old ways of behaving that get us where we don’t want to go. We go back to what I call our “familiar position.”
> Allowing yourself to go to pot (and I know some who literally go there or find some other substance to ingest that numbs) takes a tremendous amount of energy. It takes more than facing head-on what you need to face.
> 
> You continue on a downward spiral whereby each negative thought, word and action builds on the other and accumulates. A cloud of negativity hinders you from taking the action you need to take to see your way through. You become stuck.
> Of course, you understand, that when you go down that road, you become exceedingly unattractive. You are exceedingly unattractive. This only reinforces the negative self-thoughts swirling in your mind. To think of you as desirable and wantable seems a long way off.
> 
> When in your “familiar position” you will resort to typical behaviors you use to get what you think you want. Basically, you will either withdraw or attack. Neither will serve you well.
> OK, so what do you do? Well, it is impossible to totally avoid your negative feelings and thoughts, so don’t try. It is also impossible to force yourself onto a different path. (That might last for a while, but the negativity will catch up to you.) There are a couple powerful strategies. First, just notice when you go where you typically go. Don’t judge. Just notice. Allow the negativity to be there for a while.
> 
> Observe it. Learn from it. Be aware of how you are trying to protect yourself or how you actually are trying to get what is important for you.
> 
> Be gracious to yourself. Accept the fact that you are sometimes where you don’t want to be. Be kind to yourself. Look beneath. Look deeper. Look within. It will be well worth it.
> And, others will notice. They will see the change, and it will be attractive. Remember these powerful words, “You will be all right!”


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## Help239

I am guilty of a few of those. I will try harder to detach.


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## Help239

I read the articles and so I told her tonight I'm moving on with or without her. She knows where I stand and which path I'd prefer. But I cannot continue to be in a holding pattern waiting for her to end the affair. I told her I'd always care about her but that I need to move forward.


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## MEM2020

The ONLY thing she will recognize as you moving forward is you dating other women. That is it - full stop. If you don't, you are "waiting for her", if you do date others, you are clearly moving on. It really is that simple. 




Help239 said:


> I read the articles and so I told her tonight I'm moving on with or without her. She knows where I stand and which path I'd prefer. But I cannot continue to be in a holding pattern waiting for her to end the affair. I told her I'd always care about her but that I need to move forward.


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## seeking sanity

> The ONLY thing she will recognize as you moving forward is you dating other women. That is it - full stop. If you don't, you are "waiting for her", if you do date others, you are clearly moving on. It really is that simple.


I don't know if agree. I mean I do agree, but that creates additional mess. My exWW got interested once I started dating, I waited 6 months, then saw a gal for about 4 before reconciliation happened. There were two problems: 

1. I was needy and lied thru omission to the gal I was seeing, causing her a lot of pain when I dumped her to get back with ex. (I'm STILL dealing with fallout a year later.)

2. You may get a false comittment. It triggers jealousy in the ex, but when she comes back it is not under ideal reconcilation terms - transparency, honesty, self-analysis, lots of affection/sex, and some humble "you need to damn well win me back" energy from her.

Tread lightly. Especially if you haven't dating in 15+ years (as I hadn't). It a mine field.

You may want to just be unavailable, do a 180, don't let her know what you are doing, be vague about plans when you don't have the kids. Let her imagination do the work. But careful that you genuinely detach. She'll see right thru any half-assed efforts to make her jealous and it'll make you look worse.

Start with no more relationship talks for the foreseeable future.


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## Help239

I understand. I left tonight and her immediate response was "you're leaving? where are you going?" I told her I was going to counseling.

I do not want to date while still being married. Just because my wife saw fit to do a 180 the day after she filed doesn't mean I should. I will honor my vows even if she doesn't.

I might start confiding in friends of the opposite sex, but no alterior motives will exist. She will know I'm going out to see.....someone....and I'll let her imagination do the rest.

I cannot understand why I didn't start this in October. Live and learn. I hope I'm not too late.


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## seeking sanity

It's not too late. You're doing WAY better than I did. Next time she asks where you are going, just say, "out with a friend."


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## Help239

I pray with all of my heart that you are correct. I will do the same tonight and actually plan on hanging out with a friend of the opposite sex. This is a true friend - nothing else. Someone I helped thru a difficult time last year with her own relationship who wants to return the favor. Her boyfriend will be there as well.

I will always make sure I take care of the kids before I decide to leave the house. Bedtime - shower, teeth, books, prayers. That's more than she did when she left for a week in October. I think she thought I would fold under the pressure of having to take care of the kids without her. Give me a break. I may not be able to cook as well as her, but I enjoy time with our kids and no amount of sibling rivalry will change that.

I have yet to see her go on a single job interview. Our court date is less than a month away. She is confused as she has stated but I'm not clear on what she's confused about. Reconciliation? My intentions? How the split will actually work out (the details)? The OM? I just don't know.

I have resolved to go out after fulfilling my fatherly duties for the rest of the week. She can stay at home and wonder for a change. I have also decided to keep the divorce and any relationship speak at a minimum. I will not bring it up unless she does first. even then I will only respond in a short and direct manner.


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## seeking sanity

Excellent approach. Create your own life, with or without her.

She's confused and probably doesn't know what she is confused about. It's just all a jumble of feelings and hurt and guilt. Probably impossible to make sense of at the moment.


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## Nanook

I think she is scared, scared because she does not have her security anymore, she is scared financially, her career, and mainly in you, she is scared that she has finally lost you. She can see that you see life without her, and you will be fine. I think they like us to pine and ask them why, please come back etc etc, because then they know that they still have us. 
I think she is scared because what if "the grass is not greener on the otherside" and you have moved on.
I think you have done well.
Take care


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## Help239

Thanks for the motivation! It's hard but I finally see what I need to do. Funny thing is when I was still trying to reason with her she used it against me as being "hot and cold". Now that I'm distant, she has gone from "no chance in hell" to "confused'.


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## MEM2020

The last step of regaining control of YOUR life is this. 

If she says that she is reconsidering the divorce just ask her questions. Don't encourage her - after all this bad behavior if you seem like you are ready to make an unconditional surrender it will reinforce the idea she has that she deserves better then you. Because it will come across as if you yourself think you barely deserve her. 

Instead this approach works well. 

Why did you want to leave in the first place? By the way - you need to be fair here. If the answer is you were too nice, too soft, not aggressive/dominant enough in our out of the bedroom. Whatever it is you need to know. 

And if it is an honest answer then you need to think about whether that is something you are able or willing to change. But I sure would not take my wife back without knowing why - the real reason - she left in the first place. And the answer is not that she met someone else. Because there is a reason she was looking for someone else. And you deserve to know that. 


What is it that changed your mind?

If she gets aggressive - "I am not sure I have changed my mind" - your best move is to be very reserved: "ok well then I guess we have nothing to discuss"

Because the guys who immediately fold and give total forgiveness etc. Those guys end up with wives who do this repeatedly which is very unfair to the kids. 

Remember this key phrase: "I deserve better then this, if you can't provide that, it is better that we are apart." Because she is focused on herself - if you are constantly in a tailspin with her up and down behavior your children will effectively have no parenting....




Help239 said:


> Thanks for the motivation! It's hard but I finally see what I need to do. Funny thing is when I was still trying to reason with her she used it against me as being "hot and cold". Now that I'm distant, she has gone from "no chance in hell" to "confused'.


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## Help239

Thanks, we'll see what happens. She asked me to put up lights and stay around tomorrow for Thanksgiving. I will stay the course.


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## Nanook

Your attitude is brilliant, it makes me always feel so more positive about my future. Not that I have one with my husband, I have accepted that it is over, because there is the OW. Just about moving on etc. I need to see what is ahead, I have lost my husband, that is true, but I still have him as a friend, and I need to concentrate on that, I do not want us to hate each other, mainly because of the kids. I know alot of people think you can not be friends, but I know we can.
So your attitude about, if he does not consider reconcilliation, there is nothing to be discussed then, we just need to move forward. I must remember that line.
How long has it taken for you to get to this stage?
Enjoy tomorrow.
Take care


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## Help239

Was served divorce papers from my wife n early October. It has taken me 7 weeks to get here. She now knows that if she does not reconsider, I will move on. In the last 3 days she has changed her attitude towards me. That's more progress than in 7 weeks.

I will still accept her back into my life but I will need her to admit to the affair and accept my forgiveness. She is still in contact with the OM and they text/call/email daily. Her phone used to be a mystery to me but now I ignore it - not worth the details IMO. What do I care about what they're texting? I don't.

Still the issue of her possibly making a major decision with the OM in the next few weeks that will kill any chance of reconciliation but again, nothing I can control and she will have made her choice and she knows the consequences.

She is now faced wih actually coming face to face with the realities of divorce (financial, kids, etc) before the court date. Until now, she just blindly thought all would be well, all of the $$, kids 100%, a new man, etc. Now she is confused.


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## seeking sanity

Just hold your course. Don't make the mistake at jumping at some victories. Even if she does come out of her senses, there will a significant time where she is foggy. It's important you maintain a loving detachment.

Good job, keep it up.


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## joebrown98

If you dont want out of this, I suggest going to Barnes and Noble and buying a book called "Divorce Busting". My wife hasnt served me papers, but she did tell me on Monday that she wants a divorce. I have read this book, and she is now reading it. 

My suggestion is this: If you truly love her, she will come around! You must change what has made her this way. I know it sounds weird that one person can change a marriage, but listen to me:

I was told Monday there is no way we will get help and she wants out. Since then, I read this book, scheduled therapy, and now although she hasnt said she will stay, she did agree to read the book, and go to therapy. Change yourself! She married you because she loves you and loved the you at the time of your marriage. Find out what worked and she will become more receptive. Hang in there. LOVE IS WORTH IT!


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## Help239

I don't want out but she does. She has someone else.

Today is hard. She is acting distant. I was out last night with friends and she didn't ask about it at all. I'm just trying to put up the lights while she fixes the Thanksgiving meal with the kids.

Last nigt we all went out to eat with the kids. I drove. On the way she showed me something on her phone a friend had sent - her friend was giving thanks for her husband who prays with her everynight. My wife said, "look, that's cute, aww.." So I asked her this morning why she showed it to me. That since accepting Christ back into my life, I have prayed with the kids and would do the same for her if she wanted. I told her I have been praying for her and praying with her would be another step. She said, I just thought it was cute, nothing more.

I should've just kept my mouth shut. Feeling blue on Thanksgiving.....


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## MEM2020

Showing you that text message was a subtle female request for you to confirm you still love her, want her and want to pray together to fix the marriage. And you enthusiastically said yes. Which reinforces her notion of you as her plan b guy. If things are bust with the OM, she still gets to come back to you. Must be nice to be her. The fact you are still showing interest like that when she is in daily communication with your replacement is HURTING your cause....




Help239 said:


> I don't want out but she does. She has someone else.
> 
> Today is hard. She is acting distant. I was out last night with friends and she didn't ask about it at all. I'm just trying to put up the lights while she fixes the Thanksgiving meal with the kids.
> 
> Last nigt we all went out to eat with the kids. I drove. On the way she showed me something on her phone a friend had sent - her friend was giving thanks for her husband who prays with her everynight. My wife said, "look, that's cute, aww.." So I asked her this morning why she showed it to me. That since accepting Christ back into my life, I have prayed with the kids and would do the same for her if she wanted. I told her I have been praying for her and praying with her would be another step. She said, I just thought it was cute, nothing more.
> 
> I should've just kept my mouth shut. Feeling blue on Thanksgiving.....


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## seeking sanity

MEM's right. But just learn from it. You're having to learn a whole new way of relating to her. The bitter pill for guys (like me) who are prone to "nice guyness" is that once all this happens you realize relationships are much more strategic than we thing. We get married, get fat, happy and complacent and forget that women ALWAYS test you. Most need a guy who has some balls.


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## Help239

Hey, I have balls. Plus I weigh 145 and am fit. I know you were generalizing, but that is not the issue here. She was always attracted to losers before she married me. Not patting myself on the back here. Just that everyone she dated before treated her like crap and she let me know it. Now that she decides I'm not paying her the right type of attention, she goes back to.....you guessed it, mr. bad boy. A guy with 50k in civil judgements against him. Living with his parents because his 2nd with cheated on him - just like his first. I hope they live happily ever after if she decides to take this all the way to court. I will have my day in court - like I did with child mediation - and she will not like the result.

I wil reinforce tomorrow that I will move forward without her - leave again after putting the kids to bed. She needs to know there are limits to my forgiveness. I hate that cell phone. It never leaves her side. She is violating my request NOT to communicate with him while she is under this roof.


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## voivod

seeking sanity said:


> If you are lying to her, even small ones, it's a sign of immaturity and disrespect. It also puts her in the position of being the 'parent' which is annoying at best, and, at worse, makes it hard for her to respect you or feel safe with you. You're entitled to have dinner with colleagues occassionally. It's just when manipulate her about it, it devalues her.
> 
> You may want to read Divorce Busters, or try the Mort Fertel program. Basically recommit to the family, give her space, don't try to win her back with words, but focus on actually being present, trying to reconnect intimacy (without a sexual agenda), and show her that you can change. Part of this will involve you getting your own life, and becoming a stronger, more attractive person.
> 
> I suspect she has given up on things and is distrustful of your ability to change. Saying, I'll change, or begging for a 2nd chance at this point is not going to help because she won't believe it. She'll see it as weakness and posturing. Likely she's been nagging you for years to be around more, or support her in ways you didn't notice. And now she's finally lost faith in you.
> 
> Read Divorce Busters. It's a good start.


this is absolutely brilliant advice. every word! good stuff.


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## MEM2020

Help,
I believe you that you are physically fit. And I believe you have balls. But somehow you let her get on top of you. As a consequence you are letting her treat you very, very badly and your posture towards her remains one of "can we please put all this behind us and get back together".

And this is not about ego and who is right. This is about the very real female response to having two men available at the same time. She likes having options. And you keep projecting that you don't deserve her when you enable that behavior. 

So I believe you have balls in general. But where she is concerned you are mostly castrated....

Sorry man. We have all been there. If I thought you could grovel your way to reconciliation I would tell you to do it. I think you have lost sight of something. Your wife likes it a bit rough - the bad boy thing. Being too nice with her is death. So the perfect guy is someone just like you - with a real edge. Honest, high integrity but a bit rough and tumble in a non-violent but dominant way. 





Help239 said:


> Hey, I have balls. Plus I weigh 145 and am fit. I know you were generalizing, but that is not the issue here. She was always attracted to losers before she married me. Not patting myself on the back here. Just that everyone she dated before treated her like crap and she let me know it. Now that she decides I'm not paying her the right type of attention, she goes back to.....you guessed it, mr. bad boy. A guy with 50k in civil judgements against him. Living with his parents because his 2nd with cheated on him - just like his first. I hope they live happily ever after if she decides to take this all the way to court. I will have my day in court - like I did with child mediation - and she will not like the result.
> 
> I wil reinforce tomorrow that I will move forward without her - leave again after putting the kids to bed. She needs to know there are limits to my forgiveness. I hate that cell phone. It never leaves her side. She is violating my request NOT to communicate with him while she is under this roof.


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## Help239

I'll buy Divorce Busters tomorrow.

So am I supposed to tell her off when I see her behave in a disrespectful manner? Am I supposed to let her know that is she continues to see him that I will not reconcile? Are you saying I need to put my foot down or continue to be there and just avoid any confrontation about the OM?


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## seeking sanity

I think MEM is saying that you need to show some self respect, which I believe you are doing. 

Think of it this way, say a male friend of yours started acting the way your wife is acting - lying, manipulating, being an *******, how would you handle that person? Would you placate and seek his approval, or would you basically think "**** you" and avoid having anything to do with him?


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## Help239

The latter obviously. She just left again without saying a word. Really pisses me off. Gets all prettied up and just bolts.


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## seeking sanity

BTW: Divorce Busters is one perspective. I found filling my head with too many resources just confused me and took me off my path. Be nice, be distance, tough love, share feelings.... Blah! 

If there was one path to take that would guarantee a result, it would be all way easier.

The point of this is to do what is good for YOU. Getting a life, not giving in to the horrible feelings in front of her, and being unflappable. Reread the article I posted earlier. It's good advice.


Voivod - I think the advice of mine you quoted is good if there ISN'T another man, just general unhappiness in the wife; the other guy changes everything. She's in a drugged up state, being present and nice won't do anything but prolong the suffering.


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## Help239

You know, when I leave I at least say....I have plans at 10p and then go. She just leaves ..... I have no idea what the heck is going on. Before finding out about the OM she'd say she's going to starbucks....bull. She takes her laptop true, but we have DSL at home. Any why would anyone need to change out of the dress they were in during thanksgiving and into something new and put on perfume to go to Starbucks? What a crock.

I am so pissed I have half a mind to get the kids outta bed and go over to my parents for the night. That way shen she drags herself in at 3a it will be to an empty house.


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## seeking sanity

I think it's reasonable to confront her and say "it is disrespectful of me to assume I'm available to watch the kids. I had plans. I'm going out tomorrow night, if you don't want to watch the kids, you can find a babysitter."

You may also want to ask yourself how long you're willing to live in the same house as her. When are one of you moving out?


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## Help239

She was going to find an apartment but nothing has happened. She doesn't have money or a job and is charging everything (attorney, drinks, trips, etc). She wanted me out early on but I said no. Then when we went to child mediation, she got screwed and I was able to convince them 50/50 vs her "you get 4 days outta the month" bs. Since then she has not even tried to find a job. As a result of that session, we're still under the same roof until out court date in about a month.

The mediator said, you guys are basically not yet separated......even though she has been acting like a 20 something single woman for over a month.


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## seeking sanity

Well, then I think you can say, "You're acting as if you are a single women, but enjoying the financial benefits of being married. It's time for you to get a job and get together a plan to get out of this house. If you think I'm going to continue to pay for you to go screw around with another man you're crazy."

Again, if a friend was using you like this, spending your money to do you harm, how would you handle it?

And when she lies and say's she's not seeing him, just laugh a bit and walk away.


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## Help239

got it. but what if I'm wrong and she went shopping for black friday?

plus, I believe I need to leave my accounts the same (per attorney) - so I'm screwed there because she's using the money I move to use for her own purposes vs. the bills.


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## seeking sanity

Fair enough. Then crack her computer and get the truth. Same with the cell. Install a keylogger, if you can. 

If you don't know if she's having an affair, and you are still basically married, you have a right to know.

If you know she is having an affair and she's flaunting it, then you have a right to impose some boundaries. It untenable for her to be with another guy while she's living with you. That's not right. The only way to get her off the fence is to push her off, meaning she moves out.


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## Help239

Her computer is under lock and key. Only she uses it and it never leaves her car. She's changed cell phones 4 times in a year. The last one was a week ago.

I know she's having an affair. I have a picture and cell phones records. Thing is she's under the impression she's a "free" person as soon as she filed in October. She's using the paperwork to justify her behavior. 

I know I can't make her leave legally. So, when she comes back I'll tell her she needs to move out asap and get a job.


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## seeking sanity

Okay, we're getting into dangerous territory here: I'm just some guy on the internet and i don't want to guide you down a path you don't want to go. Let me back track.

The question you need to answer for yourself is: What are you willing to tolerate, or not tolerate? 

For me, living in the same house while the "divorce" is going though would be tough, especially when she's not doing anything to get prepared to split.

You probably don't want to have a conversation in the middle of the night, it will just end badly. Instead, maybe tomorrow you say, "what you're plan to get out of this house? I would like timeline for when you will leave. How should we split assets, what custody schedule were you thinking..."

Start talking logistics in a calm, dispassionate way, like a business partnership is ending. Keep calm, don't get emotional. Let her respond and freak out.


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## seeking sanity

While she may be a free person now, you are also a free person, and you don't have an obligation to finance her freedom. You also don't have an obligation to be babysitter when she spontaneously wants to go out. Perhaps you can negotiate nights with the kids. "I'll stay home mon, wed, fri, alternating sundays" kind of thing.

Stay dispassionate. Don't let her see your hurt or anger. That's the most important thing.


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## Help239

That's just it. She wanted me out but now were "recommended" to go by the mediator filing - both under the same roof with alternating weekends. Splitting the other stuff will happen at our court date in just under a month. So, I don't really have anything to discuss there...

I think I'll just wait until tomorrow and ask her when she's going to get that apartment. She always gets flustered when we talk about the split because it isn't going her way. 

She thought everything would continue to be the same expect I would be out of the picture. I would pay for everything because she would have custody of the kids most of the time. 

Now the way it looks is 50/50 so she will get less support and needs to get a job. Also, since "homebase" for the kids is this house, I suggested the parent move in and out depending on the schedule. That would be the most stable for the kids.

So, she will say things like...I don't understand how this is going to work. We'll be in and out and the kids here? How are you going to work but also drop off and pick up the kids?

Well, reality check. She should be asking herself similar questions. Like, how am I going to find a job? If I have a job, how am I going to drop off and pick up the kids? How will I afford the apartment? How will I maintain my identity as the all-American mom when I ony have the kids half the time for my extra-curricular activities?


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## Nanook

Wow just did a quick catch up.
How can the lawyer say you are separated, is that just because you are still under same roof, or are you not classified as separated unless it is legally done.
Follow her, if you can do it at a distance.
and yes I agree, set some rules, she is living in a dream world. 
If you see she has started getting ready, and has not really told you, dont make it obvious, but get your keys, and say okay see everyone later, even if you just go somewhere for a coffee. Then whatever plans she has made will be messed up. If she moans at you, say Oh I thought we did not bother telling each other when we go out. She might get the hint. also as long as she is not the kind of woman to still go out and leave the kids alone.
As childish as it is, you need to let her see her ways through your eyes, then maybe she will change and realise how wrong she has been acting.
Will it work? she seems very self absorbed at the moment. tough one.
But do set her a date for the move out. Maybe make it for the day you sign those papers.
Good luck, I did not realise she was still living with you.


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## Help239

Well, I don't need to follow her. When she came home at 4a she decided to place a call FROM HOME and I heard her from our sons room. I heard the conversation. She had spent the last 6 hours at his place. Normally this would anger me but the conversation was stupid. Yes stupid. Filled with a lot of empty words like uh, so, what, and not much else. Everytime he said something sweet she said nothing. He made plans to take her somewhere and she said maybe. It became crystal clear to me she was just using him because she needs emotional support.

I took a leap of faith and got up outta bed and knocked on the door. She let me in. We talked for 3 hours. It was great. We laughed, we relived past memories, it was surreal. The point is I simply confronted her with the fact that I listen in - and she wasn't mad because I wasn't mad. 

I simply said that conversation didn't sound like you were commited to anything. You sound distracted, like you are settling for him because you have nowhere else to turn. She no holds NO power of me about what is happening with him. NONE. She can leave at any time and I will not think about whatever she's doing. There is no longer any mystery.

As we were going over various high points of our lives, she would interject points that upset her - but do it nicely. I would not explain these away but instead apologize if I thought I reacted incorrectly or angrily. We laughed at events we've experienced as a couple and as parents. We even laughed at the things the OM said in the phone call - he laid it on thick and she bought it - until I pointed out what he said from an outsider and it became clear what he was trying to do is manipulate her.

---------------------------------------------------------------
What I need right now is a woman's perspective -
---------------------------------------------------------------

How should I proceed from here? I suggested a mini week of with the kids to continue our discussion. She said she'd think about it.

I know she still has "feelings" for him but they are superficial. So, I know she will continue to text and call him but I don't care. Until she decides to commit to repairing our marriage, she can talk to him as much as she likes.

It's hard to explain from my perspective, but I guess the not knowing is what was killing me. Not knowing if she loves him. Not knowing if they've gotten physical. Not knowing where she goes. Now that I know the answers, I do not feel threatened by him so she has lost her power over me. If she decides to take it to the next level with him, she knows where I stand and the consequences of that action. This was not true 2 months ago when she filed. She had plenty of time to convince herself I was dirt, but wasn't open to hearing my side of things.


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## peacefully

Help, your story is breaking my heart.

From what I have read, your wife is really enjoying the copious amounts of attention she is receiving from having 2 men chasing her and being interested in her. She's hooked on the high of the attention.

You do not need to be her friend or her confidant right now. She just received 2 invitations from 2 men in one evening to go away on trips!? Why would she want to change that?! You yourself said that she is acting like a 20 something single woman, and that's what a 20 something single woman would love! to be courted by 2 men.
I do not think that she will make the choice to work on the marriage if she has no solid reason to make that choice. I think she needs to suffer a little to realize the consequences of her actions and that this cannot be fixed by a conversation.

Do you want to go away with her to get her away from the OM?

I read that you desperately want her back, and it looks like YOU are doing ALL of the work to get there! That is VERY unbalanced and will only crush you.

I say, work on setting boundaries for yourself and your future. Get yourself in a better, stronger place emotionally. Let her flounder. If you are going to work on the marriage, it has to be because she comes clean, stops acting in such selfish, cruel and immature ways and she really 100% puts the effort in to helping YOU HEAL.
You do not need to be looking after her needs and how this guy is treating her.
Don't reward her bad behavior.


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## Help239

Well, I'm not trying to reward her. Not at all. I communicated that I will move on with or without her. She knows that. The fact that we talked for that long is something we used to do all the time. I think we both miss that.

I think that and the fact that I am now coming from a God centered perspective is SHOWING her that I'm open to change. I asked her to meet me in the middle. Not trying to sway her, just show her what she would be missing if she chooses to continue down this path. 

I want the trip to be able to continue to draw the real her out so she will admit that there were good times and that she does want back. Subterfuge and disinterest are not my forte so I'd rather try logic and reason. Yes, I know that's not recommended but I listened to my head - not my heart - and felt God calling me to intervene this morning. How else can I explain why the call didn't anger me? It's because I have Christ in my heart and He is leading me to where I need to be. With or without her.

She knows now that if she feels she needs to hit rock bottom she can but I will not be here to prop her up when she comes up for air.


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## peacefully

> I want the trip to be able to continue to draw the real her out so she will admit that there were good times and that she does want back.


Of course you WANT that. That's the thing- it is what YOU WANT.
You want her to come to her senses and you want her to come back and you want her to 'do the right thing'. You want her to see the error of her ways and be swayed by the memory of the good times. That all makes sense. But it is still what YOU want and you can't make someone change their behavior because it is what you want. That is WAY too much pressure on YOU. It places all of the work and the pressure and the outcome on whether you are "good" enough or patient enough and if you can draw her back by being a good man.
It does not work that way.

That is like telling an addict "drugs are bad, they will hurt you". Of course they already know that. Seeing that your behavior is wrong or hurtful often times is not enough of a motivation to change such behavior. Or telling someone, "your drug use is hurting me, it's ruining our marriage. don't you remember how great it was before the drugs?"
They can't see that, they can't see that from where they are. Logic is not going to work from the outside. You can give her the best advice in the world, but it is not going to do a thing until SHE DECIDES to change.


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## Help239

I appreciate the advice. I understand it's her choice. I don't feel there is anything wrong with helping her identify what she will be throwing away if she doesn't make a choice. She has clearly not thought things thru as she doesn't even know how she's going to live when the court date arrives.


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## peacefully

Help, if it's working for you, then keep doing it.

I only question why you are the one compelled to help her, when she is the one who should be helping you..


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## Help239

I hear you on that one - loud and clear. But if I have learned anything from reading scripture over the last few months, it's that I need to put my spouse first in the relationship, be selfless and patient, and have the Lord at the center of my heart. That said, I would feel terrible if I didn't do my part to help her out of her "funk". She really is a much better person inside - she's just confused.

Best advice I have been given so far:

Be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to anger. It has helped me through a lot of times recently when she seemed to be accusing me of things from the past when she was just crying out for help.


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## Nanook

Help, I know where you are coming from. Be there for her, but try very hard to not only do it so you can win her back. Do it as a friend. Let her know you are there as a friend, if she needs to talk etc. Make rules as friends, respect etc, do not cross the friendship line, no matter what happens, if she shows any sign she wants you back, then start dating again etc, get to know each other again.
She is confused, and lost and scared, and frankly good for acting so selfishly, but do not become someone you are not. A hateful person. It has worked for me and my husband, and we are getting on fine, we have rules. We are even going on a camping trip.
I will not lie if he wants me back, I would. But I am not going there.
I have accepted we are friends, and I feel at peace. I married him because he was a good man, and that is still in him, same with your wife, I am sure deep down inside she is a decent person, she has just lost her way. She might not ever come back to you, and you must be prepared for that, more like 80% chance she will not. always keep that in mind.
You can not switch off and not care for her, that makes you inhuman. But please make it clear that you are there for her as a friend only. You guys might start having more nice conversations, is that not better than fighting all the time.
Dont forget to let her know you are planning life without her. Still talk about the moving, and kids etc, let her know that she still needs to move forward.
I wish you luck, whatever you decide to do, just remember be true to yourself. Dont forget who you are. You are important here.


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## Help239

Thanks. I am not filled with hate, just sadness. 

Not sure where the 80% figure came from but I'm going to be there for her if she needs me. She knows I'm moving forward but I am also hoping for the best. It's not in me to hate her no matter how much she hurts me.


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## Help239

Well, this morning she needs absolutely nothing from me. It's like our talk earlier never even happened. She was trying to push all of my buttons and I didn't let her.

I grow tired of this tug-o-war. I will stay the course, but when our court date hits, the kid gloves come off. I need to protect my family - even at the cost of her mental health. What I mean by that is she swears I'm going to pull out all of the stops in court and I keep telling her it won't happen. That's because I don't WANT it to happen. However, if I am forced to chose between her "view" of me and my kids.....no contest. My kids win hands down.


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## Help239

Being played the fool AGAIN and I'm kicking myself for letting her do that to me this morning. The trip is a no go. Apparently they plan on moving in together within 45 days. I know the court will want the kids to stay at our house so that's not a concern of mine. I also know that part of the only reason shes willing to move in with him is because she cannot afford a place of her own without a job lined up.

We will see how the next 3 weeks play out. I have a sinking feeling I will have to do the unthinkable and have my attorney show cause on all of the things she has done in the recent past and it will have a direct effect on her financially and emotionally. She will have to learn the hard way - no matter how much I wanted to protect her.

I should've listened to you all from the get go. Live and learn.


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## peacefully

I am so sorry. This must be very painful for you. I understand.

Perhaps being strong and having her "learn the hard way" will be protective for her in the long run. It will show her that you are strong enough to carry on the family, even if it's without her.

I believe that you being strong and resolved in your choices will make you the better man in the long run. At some point she will see this... even if it's too late.


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## Nanook

Oh my word, why can she just not move out now. Get rid of her. I gave her the benefit of the doubt in my previous post. No person should get away with treating another human being like this.
Dont discuss anything with her, the only reason she wants to discuss anything with you, is to make sure she is fine. She does not care about you. She is playing you. She knows you are a decent man, and she knows what buttons to push.
Just tell her you wish to discuss nothing with her from now on, let her know the next time you discuss anything about this situation will be in court. refuse to be played again.
I am so sorry this is happening to you, you sound like a decent caring person.
Take care


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## Help239

I appreciate your statements. I just got off the phone with my friend who was my best man at my wedding 15 years ago. Man that was hard to break the news to him....I feel like a failure.

Yes, I am a man of integrity. Yes, I hold myself to a high moral standard. I pride myself in being a good father. I wish I had done more as a husband. I understand we are each 50% responsible for the state of our marriage. I also understand she is 100% responsibe for choosing to cheat on me - even though she denies it and is using the papaerwork as an excuse to "allow" her to carry on with another man.

I will stay strong for the kids and be there for them always. I pray that God guides me in the coming weeks and that I will not have another moment of weakness like this morning. I know I will be alright, but I cannot flip a switch and just turn off 15 years of emotion and commitment like it was nothing. I am glad I have this forum as a resource to vent my frustration.

Peace.


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## Nanook

Is that not the case with all separation. The one that leaves takes no blame, yet we will accept our part in it, but also not take all the blame, and share it.
Like you say it is 2 in a marriage, Have to blame both for messing up. Bt it takes only 1 of those 2 to do the cheating. That had nothing to do with us. yet they still feel the need to justify their actions. It is so frustrating, but instead of getting in the usual argument we just learn to be quiet.
and yes we cannot flip a switch, if only we could. It is also so frustrating, that the one doing the leaving seems to go through no emotions like us. As if the life we shared with them, meant nothing.
That is the part that hurt as well.
When is your court date? let us hope from that day you can honestly move forward.
I feel for everyone on this site. It is so sad what we go through.


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## Help239

I have less than a month before court. I am so conflicted. I wake up everymorning thinking I had a nightmare and then I realize it's my life. I will need to endure another 4 weeks of her flaunting the fact that she's cheating on me while under the same roof. I also cannot believe that someone would not give the relationship another try after 15 years together.

She just goes about her day doing whatever she pleases, blaring music around the house, ignoring me and then injecting pain whenever she feels like it with a phone call or a text message. She truly believes that I am just going to disappear and continue to finance her life with her new man after the court date. 

No love, no respect, just an empty look and indifference, and hate, and selfishness. Of course all of this is to hide the guilt and low self esteem. 15 years, gone. Remembered fondly by one, rejected and discarded by another.


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## seeking sanity

Why don't you take her phone and calmly smash it with a hammer. (Don't really do that.) But you might want to casually say, "Wife, you seem to be in denial about what's going to happen. I want you to understand that if you think I'm going to disappear and finance your life and you're new boyfriend, you're mistaken. I consider your blatant cheating to be abusive. And I intend to protect mine and the children's interests when we go to court."

Say it calmly with a smile, then walk away. She needs to be shaken up, and status quo isn't doing it. 

But, then again, your story is killing me. You're a better man than I am.


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## Help239

It won't work, I already tried it. She doesn't consider her actions as cheating. In her mind the paperwork she filed for divorce allows her so she whomever she wants because from that point forward we're "nor responsible for one another". I know the letter of the law is referring to financial responsibility. But not in her mind.

She will be shaken up, but it won't happen until we go to court unfortunately.


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## MEM2020

This has nothing to do with filing - nor court. It is all about her perception that she has the option of coming back to you whenever she feels like it. So from her standpoint there is no risk associated with her actions. She can always say - sorry just kidding - lets stay together. And she KNOWS you will take her back without hesitation. 

You keep talking about integrity. Thing is I have a simple question for folks find themselves in a situation like this. If YOUR CHILD WAS GROWN and in the situation you are in now, would you want them to do what you are doing? Because in most cases the truth is HELL NO I WOULD WANT THEM TO STAND UP FOR THEMSELVES. 







Help239 said:


> It won't work, I already tried it. She doesn't consider her actions as cheating. In her mind the paperwork she filed for divorce allows her so she whomever she wants because from that point forward we're "nor responsible for one another". I know the letter of the law is referring to financial responsibility. But not in her mind.
> 
> She will be shaken up, but it won't happen until we go to court unfortunately.


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## Nanook

I can not believe she is such a cold hearted b****, Does she not have an ounce of respect for you or the kids.
It is hard enough knowing my husband has OW in his life, but at least it is not flaunted in my face everyday. I can not imagine what you go through.
So she filed for divorce, so she thinks it is okay to cheat, she is single, if that is the way she thinks, then how can she think it is right to financially depend on you. I know the law says you can not change that part. But this is a mess. If they knew what she is was up to etc, would they still say, financially you have to support her.

My word, for once I can not offer any advice, I would smash her phone, ok maybe not, take the phone off her while she is talking, and throw it out the window. let her know by actions not words, that she is a mean person, flaunting this kind of stuff infront of you.
I am counting the days with you.
Take care


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## Help239

I know. I know. But I cannot kick her out of the house. And, I have already asked her to stop the calls and texts but I cannot touch her phone. I told her today I am not waiting around for her. I need to move on with my life. She can do whatever she wants with the OM and I will not be around to pick up the pieces when she realizes he was a mistake. I gotta stop this roller coaster ride before it runs me over again.


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## Nanook

I wish you could just switch off for the next 4 weeks. I really do feel for you.
What goes around comes around, I hope she realises this.
How are the kids handling all this, no doubt they feel the tension etc. Is it affecting them?


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## Help239

Our oldest is feeling it and I hate my wife for it. The 3 younger ones don't act like anything is wrong. They just do a double take when one of us isn't around or we have to speak in hushed undertones about the divorce. 

I am nearing my breaking point. I reconsidered my position on adultery when I accepted Christ back into my heart last month. However, I cannot take this level of abuse and harassment for much longer. There will quickly come a time when I will consciously decide to never accept her back into my life no matter what the situation.


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## Nanook

Yes, I am suprised you have not come to that point yet.
you need to ask yourself, would you ever see her the same way, like you saw her before all this started, could you trust her again.
No trust in a relationship, no point. Is my opinion.
If you answered no to those questions, maybe just stop taking this from her and hoping for something that maybe deep down inside you know would not work anymore.
I hope next year is a good year for us, I can not wait for this year to be over. We deserve some good after this.


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## Help239

Well, the reason why I was/am holding onto hope is because of my faith. I know that if reconciliation were to ever be considered, she would have to come clean with everything and we would have to START OVER. I mean from scratch.

So, I guess I never thought I'd see her in the same light again.

As far as trust is concerned, she has broken that into a million pieces. No point in trying to glue that back together. It will also have to be built up again - a new trust.

There is no doubt in my mind about whether or not this would work if both parties were willing. Right now I am, she is not. There might come a point where I am no longer willing and she is. I don't know when that will be or what will cause me to change my point of view, but at least I know it might become a reality.

This morning as we are getting ready for church she is holed up in the master bedroom with the door closed while the kids read and play games downstairs. Normally she'd be sleeping or just needing some alone time, but the laughter coming out of that room betrays her attempts to conceal the truth.

I'm going to pray for strength today. Strength to survive the next few weeks, strength to be there for my kids, and the strength to look the other way when she tries to be so vindictive towards me.


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## MEM2020

Tell her to get a job IMMEDIATELY so she can start saving money and also can begin paying the entire monthly bill for the cell phone she is using to blatantly cheat on you. 

And go LC with her. No matter what she says to you - limit communication to schedules/hearing dates etc. That is it. The idea of being her pal while she is so blatantly disrespecting you and your home is repulsive. 

You really are half the problem here. You have been reinforcing her behavior by signalling in some key non-verbal ways that it is ok with you because you just love her so much. And she reads that as you are a spineless - and she has zero interest in a spineless man. 

How do you feel about the fact that while you pay for everything, the clothing and makeup and jewelry she wears to get him turned on, she goes out on dates with this guy and pays for them with your hard earned money and then has sex with him. You are her sugar daddy and his sugar daddy as well. 

You sure are a generous man. 





Help239 said:


> Well, the reason why I was/am holding onto hope is because of my faith. I know that if reconciliation were to ever be considered, she would have to come clean with everything and we would have to START OVER. I mean from scratch.
> 
> So, I guess I never thought I'd see her in the same light again.
> 
> As far as trust is concerned, she has broken that into a million pieces. No point in trying to glue that back together. It will also have to be built up again - a new trust.
> 
> There is no doubt in my mind about whether or not this would work if both parties were willing. Right now I am, she is not. There might come a point where I am no longer willing and she is. I don't know when that will be or what will cause me to change my point of view, but at least I know it might become a reality.
> 
> This morning as we are getting ready for church she is holed up in the master bedroom with the door closed while the kids read and play games downstairs. Normally she'd be sleeping or just needing some alone time, but the laughter coming out of that room betrays her attempts to conceal the truth.
> 
> I'm going to pray for strength today. Strength to survive the next few weeks, strength to be there for my kids, and the strength to look the other way when she tries to be so vindictive towards me.


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## Help239

Thanks MEM - but I know what you are trying to do (and I appreciate it). Of course I am repulsed by this. I know she gets herself all dolled up for him and hasn't done that for me in years. Truth be told she let herself go over the last 2 to 3 years and I never once complained about it. Now in the last 3 months she's lost over 20 lbs and starts to wear make up again and get her hair and nails done. I know that she's probably a liar about not having sex with him. The jewelry she wears out were gifts FROM me over the years.

I have already told her about the job. Even though I paid for the phone bills, they will need to be reinbursed to me due to the fact that she went over on minutes. Her reaction to this was to sweet talk her grandmother into getting her a new phone. So now grandma pays for it and she can do whatever she likes. She tried to change the old account to my name but I saw that coming a mile away and said NO.

LC is a good thing. Not really a problem since she barracades herself in the master bedroom and ignores me anyways. I will NOT approach her again no matter what signals she sends me. She should go on the trip with the OM - eventually he will show his true self. They deserve each other.

My kids are my highest priority - not the marriage. For the record, I am a generous man. I am also trustworthy, kind, patient, and dependable. Any nothing you can say will change that ... lol.


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## Nanook

Being who you are, does not make you spineless. The love you have for her can not be switched off. I understand exactly what mem is saying, and alot I agree with, but spineless NO! 
Keep doing what you are doing, there is nothing you can really do until the court date. Just try switch off as much as you can, concentrate on the kids, when you find yourself getting frustrated because of what you see and hear, go out with the kids. I am sure they do not like witnessing this as well. For the next few weeks, just have the best fun you can with the kids.
Take care


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## Help239

I will try. Thanks.


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## Deejo

Help,

This is asinine. She has no respect and no boundaries whatsoever ... for you. 

You don't have to do this, unless you choose to.
I experienced a great deal of what you are going through. Fundamentally, we both have cheating spouses who steadfastly refuse to deal with reality - regardless of the cost to those around them. It's fine for you to mourn the loss of your wife, but get rid of the creature that has taken her place.

I strongly urge you to contact your attorney. Have her served with an order to vacate, or be removed. What she is doing to you is abusive. Consult your attorney. I know this is possible, because my mother had it done to my father when they split. There was a date that he had to be out of the house. Had he not left, a county sherrif would have removed him. The crueler irony? My mother was the cheater. Consider it. She has already told you what she intends to do. Fine - light a fire under her ass and make her do it.
There is a grotesque reality to life, we learn our biggest lessons where we commit our biggest f**k ups. She needs a slap, not a hug.

Her behavior is unconscionable. As MEM points out, and I agree, she is doing it, because she doesn't believe you can or will enforce any consequences as a result of her behavior. 

I apologize for the harsh words. This stuff touches really damn close to home for me - and even at her absolute lying, sneaky, cheating worst, my spouse didn't pull anything nearly as off-the-rails as yours is doing. I respect your values and your faith, but there is a reality to a 'turn the other cheek' mentality; sometimes the person doing the hitting enjoys it - and isn't going to stop.


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## Help239

I will speak to my attorney tomorrow. I have been coming home early at 2p to show that I can pick the kids up from school and that 50/50 physical custody can work even though I have a full time job. She has not gotten a job yet. 

Anyways, this has been the case for weeks and she hates it. So, today, instead of bringing them home from school, she stays out until 8p with them. She has a hard rule that says they need to be in bed by 8p but it never applies when she makes them late. So now I didn't get to spend time with them or have dinner with them today AND they still have homework to do before they get ready for bed. So frustrating.


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## peacefully

Your wife sounds like a totally irresponsible and spiteful woman. 
You need to get her out of your life. Please, do not take her back.
She might have been a good woman at one time, but all of this is just too much! Enough is enough! 

Why do we love awful people??


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## Help239

She has changed for the worse. Not even a small hint of who I remember. As I tucked the kids in tonight they had a lot to say.

"Why didn't mommy want you at dinner?"
"Mom thinks I love you more and she is sad"
"Mom said if we wanted to live with you she would leave"
"She got mad we called you about being left in the car so we we're afraid to text you where we were for dinner. She said you already knew"
"She said you are trying to make her look like a bad mom"
"She sais she gets us ALL week - not just weekends."

broke my heart.....


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## Ash22

Hello Help,

This is the first time that I have posted in your thread and I have read over the last few pages of what you and others have posted. Forgive me if I kind of sum up what you have said in the last few pages to make sure I have it right. 

You are in the process of a divorce and she lives in the house still with you and your children. She has OM in her life that I'm assuming she cheating on you with? And within the next few weeks the divorce will be final.

First off, its great that you found faith again. Its always nice to know that you have someone to talk to at all times. One of my favorite parts of the day is after I put my kids to bed I read the bible and pray for a few minutes, get everything off my chest.

Secondly, you are being the "bigger person" in this situation but enough is enough, as I'm sure others have said. The strength you are displaying by not kicking her to the curb floors me. And those questions that your kids were asking you? Breaks my heart for you. Do you think it is benefiting them by having you both in the house? Please get out of this situation even though by no means were you the one who started this.

I hope these next few weeks fly for you.


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## Help239

I don't know how to "kick her to the curb" - I do not know my options legally. I will be talking to my attorney today. "Get out of this situation".....ok but what does that mean? I am not leaving my kids. She says she's going to get an apartment but has not even started looking for a job. The OM is under the impression they are moving in together in about 40 days.

Yes, she is cheating although she maintains that as soon as she filed for divorce she was a free woman. The court date is in a few weeks, the divorce will not be final for months afterwards.

This morning she was running late to take the kids to school so I volunteered to take our oldest daughter as she goes to a different school. She did not like that. I came home to get ready for work and found that my wedding ring and a wristband I have been wearing from church for "family month" were missing from my medicine cabinet. I took them off last week after finding out she was planning a trip with the OM. Childish behavior on her part, yes, but my reaction was to simply text her and ask for the items back.


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## Ash22

Help239 said:


> I don't know how to "kick her to the curb" - I do not know my options legally. I will be talking to my attorney today. "Get out of this situation".....ok but what does that mean? I am not leaving my kids. She says she's going to get an apartment but has not even started looking for a job. The OM is under the impression they are moving in together in about 40 days.


In no way was I telling you to leave your children. Get out of this situation basically means, get her out from under your roof. What she is doing to you and to your children isn't right. Do you really want your kids witnessing all of this? B/c even if their aren't acting like it...they notice. Ask your attorney today what you can legally do. As far as her looking for a job...why would she right now if she has a free place/ride right now? She needs to start looking for one, but your hands are pretty much tied when it comes to that, you can only do so much and your doing a pretty damn good job of keeping it together (from what I can gather). As long as your children are taken care of, this woman, at the moment at least, needs to start doing things for herself.


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## Help239

I spoke to my attorney today. I cannot kick her out. However, she is digging her own grave with her actions. I will keep documenting. This is the 2nd day she has not come home after picking the kids up from school. 

I ran into them at Sams club - I was already there picking up software for one of our kids. She instantly went straight to her phone, called her attorney, and accused me of stalking her and wanting to take the kids away. The kids got scared and the 3 little ones asked if they could go home with me. She wouldn't let them and I knew if I took them it would look bad. So, I just explained to them that mommy is mad at daddy right now and that I would see them tonight for bedtime. The whole while she was recording my conversation with her cell phone mic.

She is off her rocker. My attorney thinks she is trying to get evidence on me so she can get me kicked out.


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## MEM2020

You need to start recording all of your conversations with her. 




Help239 said:


> I spoke to my attorney today. I cannot kick her out. However, she is digging her own grave with her actions. I will keep documenting. This is the 2nd day she has not come home after picking the kids up from school.
> 
> I ran into them at Sams club - I was already there picking up software for one of our kids. She instantly went straight to her phone, called her attorney, and accused me of stalking her and wanting to take the kids away. The kids got scared and the 3 little ones asked if they could go home with me. She wouldn't let them and I knew if I took them it would look bad. So, I just explained to them that mommy is mad at daddy right now and that I would see them tonight for bedtime. The whole while she was recording my conversation with her cell phone mic.
> 
> She is off her rocker. My attorney thinks she is trying to get evidence on me so she can get me kicked out.


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## Help239

seriously? I don't to appear to be the unstable one. besides, we'd just both be standing there with phones out and nothing being said....lol.


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## Loving Husband

I would try to avoid any talking to her that doesn't involve the kids. Lay the rules out. Force her to be an adult. I would document her actions also. Times she is out and her lack of taking care of kids if she does. This will all bite her later.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wren

God Help, I'm so sorry.
Listen to LH. He's the wise one.


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## Help239

Things just took a turn for the worse. I have been documenting her actions.....that has been happening since I sought legal counsel. 

Tonight she used our daughters cell and pretended to be her. She sent me texts saying another daughter was mad about staying out late with mom and now she has to do her homework and it's bedtime. I DID NOT say anything bad about their mother.....good thing. Because when I got home to help, no kids. Just my wife....and someone to serve me a restraining order.

Yep, it's like a movie. She commited perjury and filled out 4 pages of lies about me just to keep me out of the house and away from our kids.

I did not pull the phone out of the wall to keep her from calling the police. We have 3 phones and she has a cell phone....hello?

I did not FORCE her to talk about repairing our marriage and hold her AGAINST her will for 2 hours.

I am not stalking her.

I am not staying home from work and harassing her.

OMG!!!!!!!!! I am so beside myself right now. Dear Lord...grant me strength.


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## seeking sanity

I'm so sorry for you. Talk to your lawyer. She is no longer your wife, but some rage crazy person inhabiting the body of your wife. The affair has her so screwed up, it's like she's a meth addict. At this point you need to protect yourself. The lawyer will know what to do, how to act, and what steps to take. This is an awful experience. I'm grateful that you have your faith to fall back on. Pray and understand that her crazy behavior HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU. You've done nothing but be a good husband, SHE has the problems. The other man is likely feeding this whole awful situation.


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## Help239

Tough night. I am meeting with my attorney this morning. Apparently her attorney did something wrong when they filed the restraining order so my counsel is upset about how this incident went down. Slept about 0 hours. More like laid in bed with my eyes closed. Kept worrying about the safety of the kids. Wonder where they were when she served me. Wonder what they were told. I left each a note before I left - telling them that I loved them and that they did nothing wrong and that I would see them soon.


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## Help239

Got a court date - gonna go plead my case.


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## Help239

denied. I'm out of the house until the court date. I am feeling the pain again. I cannot believe she lied on paper to get me kicked out. I'm a criminal because I cared for another human being even though she was manipulating me and cheating on me.

my life is a movie and I am an unwilling actor.


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## Loving Husband

Help . I am so sorry but the law is always on her side... It's totally wrong but thats the facts.. My wife and I had a situation where the cops came and in NJ if she told them I hit her I would have been kicked out.. Immediately. Even if she was obviously lying.. It's wrong.. As men we have little rights..


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## Deejo

How responsive is your attorney with all of this crap?

Keep your cool. 

I find it mind-boggling that this stuff can just 'happen'. Roughly a year ago, my youngest brother went to his girlfriend's home to end the relationship, basically because she was crazy. She freaked, and attacked him, he put her in a bear hug, insisted she calm down and that he was leaving. She told him the minute he steps out the door that she was calling the cops. She did. In her police report she indicated that he choked her, threw her to the ground, punched her, and kicked her in the stomach, despite his knowing she was pregnant. 

My brother spent the weekend in jail. She was never pregnant. And even creepier, she had done the exact same thing to another man previously ... and why shouldn't she? Nobody seems particularly concerned about the actual truth.

I am very sorry that your path has led here.

You do still get to see your children, correct? So basically, she wanted you out of the house so you can no longer document how messed up she is.

Do continue to be strong and stable for your kids. They need that from you now, more than ever.


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## Help239

I will be there for our kids. I only get to see them every other weekend - we're back to what she wanted prior to the mediation recommendation. She also has exclusive use of the house. So when I pick them up today I am heading over to my parents.

This blows.

My attorney is reacting.....but it is of no consequence right now. I really hope the court dates prove otherwise.

I really pray that nice guys don't always finish last.


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## Help239

Had my kids over the weekend. It breaks my heart when they ask questions that I cannot answer. They think Dad is being evasive. Meanwhile the other parent is using words like "judge" and "you love him more". One daughter actually asked why I missed her recital because mom told her she told me about it.....

I don't know how I'm going to get thru the next 2 weeks without seeing the kids.


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## Ash22

Help your situation sucks and it seems like this woman is determined to make it even worse. The fact that she is lying to the kids too? Man she has sunk. 

Keep the high ground help no matter how hard it is or how much you know she doesn't deserve it.

One day your kids will see. Kids see/hear/know a lot more than we think.


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## seeking sanity

> Keep the high ground help no matter how hard it is or how much you know she doesn't deserve it.
> 
> One day your kids will see. Kids see/hear/know a lot more than we think.


Ash has a good perspective. Really, the only way you can process this and maintain sanity is to think of her as an addict: She's addicted to the feeling of limerance she gets from the other man - a mixture of "in love" hormones. They pass in 6 - 18 months, but she's also backed into a corner financially, doesn't want to lose this feeling, realizes she is not in control and is lashing out using whatever means neccessary.

These articles may help:

http://www.relationshipmatters.com/index.php?/archives/2799-When-a-man-leaves-a-woman-Part-2.html

When a man leaves a woman (Part 2) - Relationship Matters

When a man leaves a woman (Part 3) - Relationship Matters

All this doesn't defend her actions: She's being cruel and hateful, and her actions to you are bordering on the unforgivable. Your best course is to ruthless to protect your custody rights, and save yourself the misery of being an every 2nd weekend father. There's probably an argument that she's mentally unstable. At this point it is full out war for the kids. Everything else is secondary.

It's crazy making to not understand someone's behaviour, so wanted to give you some insight into what is likely going through her head.


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## Help239

Thanks. I'll take a look. What goes up , must come down. And I am definitely on a down swing......

Well, mine is definitely a Compounded Pattern. I doubt she'll even realize part3 for many months if not years, if ever. I need to move on for the sake of our kids.


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## Help239

seeking sanity said:


> All this doesn't defend her actions: She's being cruel and hateful, and her actions to you are bordering on the unforgivable. There's probably an argument that she's mentally unstable. At this point it is full out war for the kids. Everything else is secondary.


Bordering? It is unforgiveable.....

Yeah, unstable is putting it lightly. I am very concered about our kids well-being.


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## Loving Husband

Take care of your kids.. Protect yourself financially and focus on allowing yourself to be happy.. I know it's hard but detaching is a little easier when the other person is as bad as she is..


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## Help239

Thanks LH, I am trying. I have my good days and my bad days. Today is one of those bad ones. It's only been 4 days since I've seen my kids and I feel like crap. The temporary restraining order is killing my morale. I pray it get's overturned next week and the judge sees her for what she is - a liar.


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## Loving Husband

If the judge does it will hurt her from here on out. Making everything she says questionable. Will be a big win for you..


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## wren

thinking of you help. hang in there.


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## Help239

thx ....


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## betrayed81

hi help have seen ur threads and im really pulling for you, some how some one that says they love you can be so heartless i will never no...hope it goes well!


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## Help239

I don't know. She is relentless in her pursuit to cause me pain. At every opportunity she chooses to pour salt on the wound or open up new ones. I just want to leave her to her own devices. But I cannot do so in good conscience because her actions are negatively affecting our children. Therefore I will fight for them and protect them as best I can.


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## knortoh

feel for you - look out for yourself as best you can -


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## betrayed81

Look when some one is showing you there a piece of crap they usually are, found out yesterday my w was having an affair so now i want the divorce more than anything, she doesnt deserve me and this woman doesnt deserve you look at as a favor cuz would you really wanted to continue down life with this person?

I think you will be ok and i will keep you in my prayers just be strong and know that this is for the best not the worst!


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## Help239

I am praying for some relief on Friday when we go to court. The last week has been tough as I haven't been able to see the kids. Also, I lost my job on Friday because the contract simply ended. Now I have nothing but time on my hands and a job to search for while I do nothing but think of how screwed up this situation is.

It's clear to me she's not in her right mind. I looked thru some digital photos today of our vacations over the years and we had some great times. Regardless, the kids are first and foremost in my mind and I need to get them away from her as she is not herself. One day at a time, one court date at a time, I need to believe that the truth will prevail. God willing.


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## Corpuswife

Keep the faith Help. Eventually the divorce will be over and things settled. Ask for advice from your attorney and follow it. You are a strong man and seem to be reacting with calm and logic. She isn't. Let her go. The less response to her actions the better.

You are already documenting which is good. Obviously she has the case of the "crazies." It happens when they stray and then the fantasy life isn't what its cracked up to be.

Keep God as you center and your kids the focus. Eventually, this will be over.


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## Help239

He is and I am grateful for the support of family, friends, and the people on this board. Documenting isn't all it's cracked up to be. It's still he said / she said. My caring actions can be twisted into controlling actions by her attorney. I actually still pray for her at night but I know in my heart it is over and I will never forgive her. I guess I just do it because she is obviously in need of a little prayer and faith.


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## Deejo

Out of curiousity, how is she paying for an attorney? Is she still on disability?


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## Help239

I don't know. My guess is a credit card.


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## Help239

T minus 10 hours to court....pray for me my friends. Best case is I'm back in the house tomorrow and the judge sees past her lies.


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## Loving Husband

Good luck. We will be awaiting your outcome.


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## StrongEnough

Best of luck to you. Please keep us updated. I have my fingers crossed for you!


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## wren

praying for you, help. hang in there!


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## Help239

The judge removed the temporary restraining order. In his opinion, "there is no basis for continuing the TRO based on the evidence before me". I am back in the house tonight and my attorney will suggest a week on / week off schedule until our new court date in Jan. I need to survive one more month - but at least it will be at home with our kids!

Thanks for all of the support and well wishes everyone!


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## Deejo

That is great news, in an overall crappy situation.

Have things settled at all, or is she still pretty volatile?

How are the kids holding up? How are you holding up?


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## Help239

Yes, it was a great day overall on Friday. Things have not settled. She was expecting to win on Friday and had the kids all packed for their weekend with me away from the home. Surprise - I decided to stay home for the kids. Needless to say she was not happy and ended up clearing a lot of stuff out in a hurry.

She is still in the frame of mind that I'm controlling, angry, and just a bad person overall that drove her to end our marriage and commit adultery. Go sell crazy somwhere else. I'm not buying it. She stopped by today while I was out shopping with the kids to grab her passport. I only know that because she emailed me. Mind you, not to update me on that fact, but to hint that she would be traveling soon with the OM. Hey, have a nice trip you two.....enjoy. You deserve each other.

Kids are good but I'm worried about the oldest and youngest daughters. They said some stuff this weekend that brought me to tears. Their mom simply does not know the proper boundaries and is subjecting them to unecessary stress and emotional turmoil with the OM.

I am good. I have highs and lows but that is to be expected. I was scared stiff in the courthouse on Friday but was relieved to see that the judge saw thru the crap and games from the other side. I hope I fair as well in January.

Thanks for the concern!


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## Deejo

It may not seem it right now, but without a doubt, your kids will remember how you dealt with this - compared to how she is dealing with it.

When my parents divorced, my father got absolutely steamrolled. He allowed it, because he wanted to minimize the impact on us. In conversations as an adult, I let him know that I recall very well how things played out. In hindsight, he says now that he never would have, nor should have conceded what he did. Given my circumstances he has been full of advice.

She will undoubtedly continue to try to harm you. Be aware. Be prepared, and hit back (figuratively). Continue to be that wellspring of calm and dependable reassurance to your kids, particularly during the holidays.


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## Help239

I sincerely appreciate your advice. We are setting up our fake 9' tree today. This years theme is teddy bears. It will be fun.
They had purchased a 6' noble while I was away due to the restraining order.

She is continuing her campaign to kill my spirit. I am broken but I am not beaten. She left a small surprise in the bedsheets for me to find because she knew I'd wash them when I got into the house. Big deal. I only care because she's doing this with the kids in the house and that isn't right.


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## noideato20

Omg that buisiness about the bed sheets. aaarrrg. How do you even begin to get you anger under control with that??
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Deejo

I withdraw my figuratively comment.


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## Help239

The thing with the bedsheets didn't make me angry, it made me sad. Sad that the kids are around when that kind of crap happens. Sad that their own mother would not understand the boundaries between her needs and their welfare. So, it was easy to keep the anger in check.

One day when this is all finalized, she will understand the damage she has done. And she will have to live with it for the rest of her life.


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## Help239

Ran into the soon-to-be ex while shopping Christmas Eve with our kids. WOW, I was embarassed for our kids to see her in this condition. She really looked like a train wreck. I thought I'd feel sad, but instead I felt shock. I heard rumours from family but now believe there might be something to their concerns about substance abuse.


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## Loving Husband

Help protect yourself. Get documentaion.. Start writing things down to use in court. If she is abusing you need proof.. You need to keep kids away from that lifestyle..


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## Help239

I am but I am helpless to stop it at the moment. Haven't posted in a few days because I've been down. She has had the OM over every night since Christmas. I don't care about what they do if they are alone, I just cannot believe she would have him over to our house during her last week in it WHILE our kids are asleep a few feet away.

She has also taken them out to dinner or invited him over every night nince Christmas. Today one of my girls told me he was sitting with them at church on Sunday. Another one told me she doesn't want him to come over for dinner anymore. Just breaks my heart that their mother can be so insensitive of their emotions and well being. All she cares about is herself.

She has replaced me with him in her life emotionally, physically, and mentally. That is just fine by me. But forcing this OM on the kids so quickly is just unconscionable.


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## Help239

Just transferred all utilities into my name. She is leaving permanently tomorrow. I can't wait. I would not be surprised if he's still at the house when I show up.


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## Help239

Well, I pulled up to 3 cars packing stuff from the house. Decided not to confront anyone and kept driving. Come to find out the time to return was miscommunicated. So, I need to spin my wheels until this afternoon. In any case, I should've expected her to have the OM over with his family to pack stuff A DAY EARLY. And, all of this in front of the kids. She has no idea what she's doing the their little minds and it makes me sick.


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## Loving Husband

Help you need to disconnect a bit. It is driving you nuts and only making it worse. You know she is no good.. Try to tell yourself you are so much better not in that situation. Keep your kids as happy as you can.


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## Help239

I hear ya. I came back to a half empty house. It could have been completetly empty as long as the kids were there. They are what matters the most. Her little tricks and "things left behind" will not break my resolve. She can do what she wants as long as the kids are safe.

Can't wait for our court date. She wasn't supposed to take half of the stuff she did but whatever.......it's only material after all.


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## Corpuswife

Help...what a heartbreak for you and your kids.

She uses her happiness to justify her behavior. "It much better to have a happy mom around the kids. He makes me happy. " Whatever. 

A parent that tosses the father of her kids aside, gets boyfriend and invited him over with the kids present on a daily basis is delusional. Oh yes...and extremely selfish and immature.

What's with these people.


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## sisters359

I'm glad you are able to be with your kids. But please, do not be led astray by the belief that somehow, your wife just suddenly went "crazy." If you can accept that there were problems in the marriage which you may well have chosen to ignore or undervalue (and you are human and entitled to make mistakes, too), maybe you will be able to accept her leaving as a result of two imperfect beings making mistakes that could not be repaired. I'm not by any means defending the way she has left--sounds truly awful--but there is a good chance she felt pain during the marriage that you did not or would not see (only you can tell) and her pathetic attempts at "payback" are a childish reflection of that pain. I'm not asking you to sympathize with her, I'm asking you--for YOUR sake and your KIDS' sakes, to stop demonizing her and recognize that her behavior is an inappropriate reaction to a breakdown in the marriage, not some inherent craziness suddenly unleashed by . . . nothing. 

It takes a big person to find understanding of his/her own role in marital breakdown, in the midst of all the pain. But doing so allows you to stop the behaviors that will be most damaging to the kids, on your end. On her end, I'd bet my personal fortune that her mistakes were of "omission," that she never told you how she felt about things you said, did, etc., or if she did-and you didn't listen--she did not make it clear that certain things were "deal breakers." In other words, she probably held back on communicating her unhappiness out of fear of rocking the boat--and instead, her unhappiness led the boat to capsize. You can call her behavior crazy, but a happily married person doesn't just suddenly walk on on the spouse s/he loves. Trying to accept this will help your kids.


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## Help239

Sorry sisters but I'm with CW on this one. I have already accepted 50% responsibility for the end of the marriage. She is responsible for 100% of the adultery. Furthermore, in her mind I am 100% responsible for BOTH.

I am not demonizing her. I am behavng appropriately around our children. I am taking the higher road and keeping my children safe and not speaking badly about their mother. I am not interrogating them about the OM or what they do when they are with their mother. The same cannot be said for her. I use the word "interrogate" because that is what my children say. I am not introducing a stranger into our house and forcing his presence on our kids. There is no excuse for this behavior - especially to allow him to stay over for an entire week. He is a free loader and she will soon realize this. I just want my kids to be safe. She is not looking out for them. She is putting her wants and needs before theirs during a difficult time in their lives. I will not follow her example.


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## Corpuswife

Your children are lucky to have you HELP.

There is nothing more attractive than a man that takes care of his family!

You are going to do all right!!


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## seeking sanity

That's a fantastic, and healthy attitude, Help. All I can say is hang in there.

Sisters: I get what you are saying, but I don't think he's been demonizing her at all. Bewildering and angry at her hateful behaviour. 

You seem to have a negative, angry view of men, based on this and other posts. Given you've asked Help to look inside himself, you may want to do the same and gauge whether your advice is projecting your own stuff.


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## Help239

Here's some advice someone gave me and it would have been invaluable from the beginning.

"Hope for the best BUT prepare for the worst"

I followed this advice when she said "I'm confused".
I followed this advice when she attempts to get under my skin.
I followed this advice when I found out she was cheating.
I followed this advice when she decided to file a restraining order against me using lies.
I followed this advice when she decided to invite the OM for sleepovers.
I follow this advice today, when I realize nothing is more important to me than my children and their health and safety.


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## Deejo

It's hard to follow that advice out of the gate. 

I got knocked on my a$$ a few times before I took, and started giving that very advice.

You will get through this.


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## Help239

I know. Believe me I know.

Stupid me, I was cleaning out drawers in the now half-empty house when I came across our wedding video......yeah, I watched it. Should've put it into a box with the album and my ring. Dumb, dumb, dumb. I just have to realize she's not the same person in mind or spirit.


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## michzz

It's very telling that she didn't save that video for herself.

I recommend tossing it.


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## Help239

Not being an optimist here, because I am truly done with her after all she has lied and done legally to me and our kids.....but she also left the video of our first born too. So, I think it's more a case of her procrastination and not having enough time to get everything in the house.....she had a week in the house and waited until the last few days to pack. Kids tell me she needed hugs during the process, and that is something she rarely asks for.......


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## Help239

I have 5 days to get this house "cleaned up". It has been very liberating to start working on the garage after all of these years. Maybe I can actually park my car in the garage by the end of the week. The clutter is worse than I thought but I have to do this. The kids deserve a clean home.


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## knortoh

Help. 
Cleaning and sorting is great -
for you and for the kids
it not only changes the energy of the house - it something positive they can see you doing -
a small but positive change to come out of this.
You are doing good.
Personally I don't agree with sisters.
people leave relationships for all sorts of reasons.
some logical some not.
some selfish some not.
It is not the case that whenever someone leaves it is because the relationship was cr**. 
It is because they want something 'more' or 'else'....
something 'outside' - 
who knows why sometimes...
you are allowed to explain this situation to yourself in whatever way it makes sense to you for now
the real answers wil emerge when the dust settles...


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## Help239

Thanks knortoh. I needed to hear that. I knew it, but it's different when someone else reinforces it.

Now after almost 2 months of not speaking, my W wants to meet to talk "for the sake of the kids". She's already taken any material possessions from the house she's wanted. She's already slept with another man in our bed many times. So, what the heck could she want to talk about?

Anyone in their right mind will know it's done. Custody is right now 50/50 although it's not official.

Any tips everyone? Is this just another ploy?


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## seeking sanity

This is the beginning of your chance to reconcile, if you want to leave the door open to that. My advice would be to friendly but distant, let her do most of the talking, don't get baited into a "relationship" conversation and to KEEP YOUR COOL. Find out where she is at and what she wants.

If may be to prove to herself that she made the right choice, it may be because she is beginning to realize that the grass isn't greener. Either way, if you act emotional, needy, hurt or in any way negative, it will drive her back to the other man.


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## Help239

Chances are she's just using this as a way to ask for something. 

Three months ago she lied to me and said she wanted 50/50 custody but turned around and asked for full custody. 

Two months ago she said she was staying at a girlfriends house but I found out she was cheating on me. 

A month ago she filed a restraining order but the judge called out her lies and I'm in the house.

She's due for another installment of whatever .... suffice to say she thought it would go one way and it has gone another. I will keep an open mind and follow your advice.

Be quick to listen, slow to anger, slow to speak.


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## knortoh

Help 
I'd see this in more mundane light 
she does need to talk to you about the kids -
follow your own counsel on this one 
you both will have to have a lifelong relationship 'for the sake of the kids'. 
regardless of anything else 

a friend gave me this advice when my H left me and I 'didn't know how to be around him anymore"

he asked me to tell him about a place where I was confident and I communicated really well with others...(for me it was my workplace - I am a teacher) 
and then he said when you see your H imagine that you are in this room, he is a student...
try and conduct your conversation using those skills -
it will feel false but this really got me through some tricky situations -

my only other peice of advice is that if reconciliation is on the cards for you guys it is a long process given where her head has been at 

I'd confine the talk to the kids. Don't risk talking relationship stuff. 
Even if you have to bite your tongue....

good luck


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## Help239

She only gave me 30 minutes notice today for a proposed meeting and I have something else planned so I turned her down and suggested later in the week. I had previously asked to be notified ahead of time so I could plan for the meeting - she obviously missed that part.

k - yes, I am usually the optimist but I have no doubt she is just trying to get something - information, appliances, whatever. On the off chance she does bring up "us" I will let her do all of the talking and avoid the topic.

She has not allowed them to call me to say goodnight at all since Friday. When I call them all I get is voicemail. I do not believe she is trying to reconcile, but rather to establish HER groundrules and control over the situation.

I'll let you all know how it goes.


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## peacefully

Help, are you open to reconciling, knowing what you know, and knowing her pattern of behaviors?
Just curious.


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## Help239

I believe things happen for a reason and that God has a plan for all of us. That being said, although I am broken I am not defeated. She has cut me to the bone yet I still live. She has poured salt on my wounds and yet I still survive. It is through His word and His grace that I find the strength to go on.

I am open, but it will take A LOT of work on both sides to make that a reality. I honestly don't believe she is wanting to talk about reconciliation at this point. Her actions speak louder than her texts/emails. She has some family health issues and I have already stated on many occassions that I am here if she needs a shoulder. I am not at the same point I was 3 months ago. I am a friend, not a partner.


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## knortoh

Yes Help you have been through a lot.
great that you didn't meet with her on her impulse -
I think you are very wise to brace yourself
It will be because she wants something from you


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## Help239

Thanks again k - I'm heading out to the gym for 2 hours. Going to clear my head with a nice cardio workout. Then I think I will treat myself to a new pair of sunglasses I saw yesterday. 

I haven't heard from our kids since Friday....the W can be so vindictive and yet blind to the impact on the kids. When they are with me I have them call her every night to say goodnight.


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## Help239

Well I received a flurry of texts this morning about clothing for the kids because they didn't pack enough. I basically confirmed that she wants to meet because she has to, not because she wants to. The basis of her request is to talk about things because we've spent too much $$ on the lawyers.

Am I missing something here? Her decision to divorce, not willing to do counseling, and I waited until day 29 to get an attorney.....on day 30 her full custody would have become a court order. So, why is she complaining about attorney fees? Money, this is about money.

My daughter told me she hasn't allowed them to call me to say goodnight because they "aren't supposed to". Geez. Get me to court already.


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## knortoh

The kids will rebel against her about the calls
maybe not now 
can you get them their own cell phone? are they old enough?

The clothes thing comes up all the time as well.
The only way it works is if you guys have enough money to buy two of everything. 
Other than that it is very tricky and very stressful on kids.

USe your anger to get through things help.
It will give you some energy.

And continue with your realistic appraisal of her motives.
It helps you not be ambushed by her.

Glad that you are working out etc.


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## Help239

I already got the 3 girls their own cell phones last week because she has been pulling this tactic with them for months. Didn't matter - she took their phones away. She is also interrogating the oldest daughter (13) and telling her not to tell me when the OM is over.

She just doesn't get it. It's not about her or the OM. It's about the kids. She is delusional about what's happening and hurting the kids in the process of justifying her actions.


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## Help239

Kids are back home. Found out 2 of them slept on couches all week because of complications from the OM not being able to figure out how to construct a bunk bed. Oh, and the matresses purchased were the wrong size. Sheesh.....

Also, I noticed our 6 year old son didn't have socks on when he was dropped off from school. Tennis shoes without socks - nice. But it gets worse. Tonight as I'm tucking him into bed he's self conscious about getting his pajamas on with me in the room. Reason? He doesn't have any underwear on under his jeans. My W is so out of it she sends him to school with no socks and no underwear. Ridiculous.


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## knortoh

oh help 
this is atrocious for you 
what a mess for the kids.
you must be feeling for them so much.
this madness will end badly for her.
I would be thinking about how to get as much custody as you can of the kids...
I would also let her know that this is not on.


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## Help239

I am struggling with that. I do not want them to resent me for taking time away from their mother but I also do not want them to continue to be exposed to this indifference from her.

Yes, I feel for them but I can only control what happens when they are with me. Today is a pajama day - at their request. I am resealing the stone floor downstairs. I did sent the W a text about it - no reply.


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## knortoh

Yes I completley understand about not wanting them to resent you 
that is why I always from day one said that I was fine with 50/50 custody. 
I felt that this was the fairest and most simple way to explain it to the kids.
The law however is not this black and white - 
the main idea between shared parenting here (in Australia) is that children are given ample chance for a 'meaningful' realtionship with both parents....
not sure how it works in your neck of the woods..

In any event if she has been a good functional mother up until this point I think you can assume that she will get her act together again aroound this stuff.

From what I am hearing she is still in crisis mode - not thinking - not planning etc.

One can only hope that once the dust settles she will get he sh** together....and in the meantime you will have to cover for her. 
You don't have a whole lot of other options.


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## Help239

Just heard a valuable lesson at church.

I can accept my W for who she is and has become but that doesn't mean I approve of her actions.

I can forgive her for what she is doing but that doesn't mean I'm going to forget.

I need to continue to value my children and believe in them and their goals. I cannot and will not let my W affect this. They need to feel safe and secure.


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## Help239

She tried again to setup a meeting and I got the "I want to be friends" text. Then she questioned my Christianity because I wasn't accomodating her request.

Please, keep bringing the OM to church and living in sin. Just don't do it around our kids.

She must feel really guilty to be reaching out right now.


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## seeking sanity

You're doing amazingly well. You're a stronger man than me.

Christ doesn't require you to be friends with her or endorse the sin. What's that saying: Love the sinner, hate the sin? You have ever right to keep an emotional distance, especially since he OM is still in the picture. Pray for her, if you choose. But don't back down by absolving her guilt, which amounts to supporting the sin to my mind.

You are doing amazing.


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## Help239

Thanks for the support and kind words. I have prayed for her. She knows that. I even offered to pray with her - she never responded. This was while we were still under the same roof.

Really, after being lied to, put under a temporary restraining order based on lies, hearing about the OM sleeping over in our house and lying in our bed, there is NOTHING she will ever say to me that will heal the wound she has inflicted. I am alive and well for our children. That's it. It's about them, not her.

She still doesn't get it. Said "she's happy" and wishes the same for me. Get real. If and when I start a new relationship, it will be with the kids well being in mind. And, I will do it when the time is right - when my divorce is final.

She was my first true love, and I haven't given up on her as a person, but she's a stranger to me. The person I married no longer exists and has been replaced by a vindictive adulteress.

So why is she trying to be nice? Maybe it's because the grass isn't greener. Maybe it's because I'm in the house and she's in an apartment. Maybe it's because our savings are going towards attorney's fees instead of into her pocket. Maybe it's because she's got a bad feeling about how the court date is going to play out...........

.....maybe it's because she knows she screwed up but isn't big enought to admit it.


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## knortoh

I am not sure asking you to be friends is being nice ....
It may make her feel better - but it is disregarding your feelings


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## peacefully

Help, she might want to be friends so she can have her cake and eat it too.
She might want something from you financially, or support wise, or she might want to alleviate some of her feelings of guilt, and a way to do that is to not have you mad at her.
However, she should feel guilty, that is a natural reaction to what she has done and what she has put your family through.

Perhaps she wants to mend fences- on her terms- because it's easier for her. Sounds like she just wants to keep doing what she is doing and she wants to try to keep you on the back burner just in case she needs or wants something.
Stay strong. You are doing a great job!


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## Help239

Thanks you two. Yes, I believe you are both right. She assumes we can remain friends - didn't even ask or question it. Obviously feels like she has done nothing wrong but still feels guilty. Must be tough .....


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## Help239

So far almost 15k in attorney's fees - this is madness. She is out of her mind.


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## Help239

Had the kids call to say goodnight to her - as they do every night they are with me. They told her we had garlic chicken and noodles for dinner. They said she asked what kind of noodles and they said the funny noodles (corkscrew shaped). As usual, by the time the call was over the oldest said she told her the 3 younger ones didn't like the dinner I cooked. Weird because they had second helpings. 

IT'S ALL A MATTER OF PERSPECTIVE --> she doesn't think I can make it without her and that I can not do anything right by her. 

** You'd think I was the one commiting adultery. **


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## Help239

Court date coming up on Tue. She threw the kids new cell phones onto the driveway on Friday during the exchange. They cried as she sped away with them. Her behavior continues to baffle me. She does not want them to have ANY contact with me when they are under her care. They want to call me to say goodnight but they are told they are not supposed to do so. So frustrating.


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## whattodo17

help-I just have to say her actions disgust me! Coming from a person who grew up in a broken home and as a child had to go thru something similar it breaks my heart for kids having to go thru this, and for you too. She must not realize what impact this will have on her children. I am so sorry you are going thru this.


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## Help239

She will realize it soon - when we bring her behavior up in court. She has been texting me over the last few weeks to ask me to meet her to talk for the sake of the kids. Then she pulls stunts like this. It is clear to me that all she is concerned about is the money we are wasting on attorney's fees and how much will be left for HER. That's it.


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## Help239

Went to court and what happens? We wait 4 hours until just before we get called and she PULLS the restraining order request. Well, that was a waste of 15 hours of attorney prep and 2 months of stress and 10k in fees. What was the point? A scare tactic? 

Sorry honey, it didn't work. The only reason you pulled it at the last minute is because your 2nd attorney told you the SAME thing your 1st one told you before you fired him - you have nothing to justify a restraining order.

Here we are 4 months later with 25k in attorneys fees and we are no further along in our divorce than we were back in October. She is in denial and simply delaying the inevitable. And this was HER choice. What gives? I just want this to be over and the kids to be safe. She still won't let them contact me when they are with her and flat out lied to her attorney about it.


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## peacefully

Help, it's so hard to hope for the best in someone, and then to have them continuously let you down.
This has been such an awful situation for you...
From now on just expect that she will be nuts, and you do the best you can to hang in there and build a new life.


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## Help239

I hear ya peace - thanks.

I initially lost about 20 pounds due to stress and not eating right. Then I started taking better care of myself and going to the gym for 2 hours a day, 5 days a week. I'm now at 148. Considering I'm 5'7" that's good. Gotta be healthy for those kids.

Yeah, she's out there. I know she might try to reconcile down the road but at this time I am 100% against ANY type of movement in that direction. If she was vindictive before, it will just get worse in the short term. She keeps digging her own hole and blaming me for everything. Just wait until we go to child mediation.....I have a lot to say on behalf of our kids.


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## Help239

Kids cracked me up today - held a talent show at the spur of the moment in the now completely empty formal living rooom and dining room. For them to take that depressive area and turn it into a happy event made my day. Heck, it made my week.

Meanwhile, the W continues to play games. When she picks them up every other week she always says out loud where they are heading....."going to the snow kids", "going to Disneyland kids". Well, since the cell phone throwing incident and our court date, she has requested pick ups at school to "minimize contact between parties". Consequently, she had no way of trying to get a reaction out of me. So, what does she do tonight but tell every child on her call goodnight (yes, I still insist they call their mother to say goodnight) that she's in Vegas.

Vegas? Wonderful. Please have a great time. I hope you have a blast. What does that have to do with saying goodnight or perhaps a prayer with our children? Absolutely nothing. Of course they passed the info on to Dad, and? Nada. Could care less.


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## Deejo

Are you still documenting all of this madness?

If this woman 'wins' anything in this debacle of a divorce, I will lose any and all faith I have in the system.


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## Help239

Still documenting. Still praying. Still hoping that our kids are not permanently damaged by her example of how NOT to behave as a parent, as a wife, as an adult.


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## Help239




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## seeking sanity

Help, sorry to hear you're having a bad day. Did something else happen? Or just crashing from all the stress?


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## Help239

I had posted a few paragraphs then read it and erased it. Bad night. As I was tucking our kids into bed one of them asked a few pointed questions before our prayer. She was just curious and not trying to upset me - I understand, but it still shows me how far the W will go to get what she wants.

Questions:
1) Why did you tell mom she couldn't live here unless she paid for the house?
2) Why did you take back mom's presents? She says you lied.

Basically the W told the kids it was MY idea that she leave at the beginning of the year and that she didn't have a choice. She told them I said if she couldn't afford the mortgage to get out. I told our daughter I never said mom couldn't live here and never asked her to pay for the house. Dad has always paid for the house so we can have a safe place to live and call home. The truth is she decided to tell me thru her attorney that she was leaving (I didn't tell our daughter this).

The 2nd question surrounds some presents I purchased a month into the divorce for the Ws birthday. She filed within a week of the birthday and I was kept from the celebration - came home early to an empty house and was told by the kids (by text) they were at Disneyland. Spent 3 hours trying to meet them for dinner and ended up alone at Disney not knowing where in the park they were (mom kept ignoring their questions about dinner and Dad). 

So, about a month later on my birthday, I decided to give her presents. She got upset and left dinner without explanation or saying goodbye to the kids. Presents were left at the table and taken home and placed on the nightstand for over a month. I told our daughter since mom never accepted the gifts dad decided they should go back to the store. Keep in mind the presents were purchased 2 weeks before I found out about the OM. She said her mom told her they were her gifts and should not have been returned. I asked our daughter to make up her own mind and she did. Had to keep it together during the goodnight prayer - she is such a sweetie.

I really feel for our kids and the BS they have to put up with when they struggle with which parent is telling the truth.


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## seeking sanity

I've tried to be truthful with my kids in all aspects of my life - even the things that make me look bad (ie. dad have you been smoking? Yes, yes I have.)

I've told them I will always tell them the truth. If they ask questions I don't want to answer, I'll tell them "I'm not going to answer that question." My thought is that if they feel I will always be honest with them, it gives them a wall to push off of. 

In this case, I think it is fair to tell the children, "your mother didn't want to live with me. I wanted to stay married, but she doesn't, so I am respecting her decision." Don't talk about the OM, or anything else. Your kids will figure it out.


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## Help239

They already have figured it out. Her actions are irresponsible and they cannot help but see and hear stuff when they spend a week with her and the OM.

I am burdened by the legality of what I can and cannot say. Considering the actions she has taken against me, I am treading with caution. Anything I say can and will be used against me by my W. She'll just twist the words until the result is what she wants.


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## turnera

This is why a betrayed spouse should ALWAYS tell the children that the wayward spouse is doing something wrong. They need to understand the truth - one of the parents made a mistake (though that doesn't mean the BS doesn't still love the kids), and therefore the family will have to adjust.

Do you want your kids to love their mom unconditionally and adopt her waywardness into their moral code, or do you want to teach your kids that even adults make mistakes but you should strive to do the right thing?

They will accept mistakes. They will get screwed up FOR LIFE if you pretend she did nothing wrong, because they won't understand. And they will try to emulate her. 

Please do the right thing and tell them the truth.


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## Help239

Trust me when I say that is my nature. But I have to look at the ultimate goal of securing their safety and protecting my rights. I will tell them ultimately what is really going on but I have to wait until the divorce is final. I cannot fill their heads with "the truth" because it will appear as if I am trying to affect their judgement from the courts perspective.


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## Help239

I dropped the kids off at school this morning and they kissed me goodbye. Came home and found a beautiful poster they created letting me know they will miss me and thanking me for helping them with their homework. They are so sweet. Now I'm alone, and sending out resumes (was laid off in Dec) and trying to stay ahead of the bills. I need to stay focused and get my mind off of the W and her manipulative ways. 2 hours at the gym should get me started. 

After a few months it's getting easier but I still dread this feeling inside when the kids aren't with me for a whole week. I worry about them constantly and pray that my W stops using them as a means to hurt me because it's really hurting them too. It's like she lost her mothering instincts and is now a single person who puts her own needs before the needs of her our children.


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## hyndsight1

Are these realy the same women we married? Logic doesnt seem to interfere with decision making, thats for sure. How do they sleep at night? It stings when they betray us, but it realy hurts to know that our children must needlesly suffer. Keep up the fight!


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## Help239

WOW.....

good news - FIRST night in 4 months that she let the kids call me to say goodnight.

bad news - while on the phone our 6 year old son gets hit in the head with a piece of wood from a closet shelf.

She cannot even supervise them effectively. I swear she's ...... whats the word I'm looking for?


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## hyndsight1

Was he maybe _hiding_ from her in the closet to make the call? kidding, hope this happens more often, (the calls). I know exactly the word your looking for..........


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## Help239

lol ... no he was in his room - 4 kids are doubled up in a 3 bedroom townhome. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out where mom and her "friend" sleep. Yet she still believes she's pulling one over on the kids.

The reaction to his screaming and crying was what upset me....just a calm reaction, hardly any concern at all from BOTH adults. They are ..... you know.


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## Help239

Had a great Valentines Day with the kids. It was awesome. Made strawberry crepes with them for breakfast, had a picnic at the park with family, rode bicycles, then made chocolate strawberries and had a BBQ for dinner and finished it with a with a dip in the jacuzzi.

Then tonight as I'm tucking the kids into bed one of them tells me they think mom and the OM are going to get married because they went to ask her to read a book for bed and saw them kiss and heard her say "I love you". Then they asked me - can someone get married two times? 

Dang, I held it together and asked if they thought mommies and daddies who were still married should do that. They said no. I told them I was sorry they had to see that and that they did nothing wrong asking her to read them a book.

Anyways, they called her twice to wish her a Happy Valentines Day and say goodnight - no answer so they left a message.


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## Help239

Tonight they called to say goodnight and she picked up. Told them she was out of town so she didn't pick up yesterday.....yeah, but they called her cell phone twice within 30 minutes. Just an excuse.

Anyways, one of our daughters asked if her Aunt (my sister) could order 8 boxes of girl scout cookies. Answer was "no, because my troop is selling cookies to MY side of the family". Wow, she really doesn't give a crap about what she is doing to our kids. How selfish. How stupid. I could tell our daughter was sad and confused. I just told her we could fill the order another way.


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## Affaircare

Help239 said:


> ...Then tonight as I'm tucking the kids into bed one of them tells me they think mom and the OM are going to get married because they went to ask her to read a book for bed and saw them kiss and heard her say "I love you". Then they asked me - can someone get married two times?
> 
> *Dang, I held it together and asked if they thought mommies and daddies who were still married should do that. They said no. I told them I was sorry they had to see that and that they did nothing wrong asking her to read them a book.*
> 
> Anyways, they called her twice to wish her a Happy Valentines Day and say goodnight - no answer so they left a message.


Oh good job! I am so proud of you! You gave your children a place to be safe to ask their questions and voice what they think! And you (an adult to whom they look up) confirmed for them their suspicion that what their mom is choosing to do is not the right thing! Seriously you did a very good job because they will feel some freedom to talk to you about right and wrong, and learn from you that doing the right thing can be hard or scary but you still do it! 

Oh seriously.... GOOD JOB!  I'm very proud of you, especially for asking them what do they think! Wonderfully handled.


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## Help239

Thanks affaircare - btw, I always ask what they think because I want to know what they think. My W tells me that's using them against her and putting them in the middle. I disagree.

For her to be a troop leader and refuse to sell cookies.... way to teach our daughter the way of the girl scout code, way to misrepresent yourself as their leader.


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## Notaclue

Help, your children know what is right and wrong. Once the divorce is final, I'm sure they will see the full extent of what their mother has done. You just need to love them and answer their questions truthfully and I'm sure in the coming months they will have many. Stay strong and true for your children; they already see you as the only parent they can trust.


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## Help239

I will stay the course. Thanks for the pep talk 

I found out this week my W commited fraud again by setting up an automatic payment of her cell phone bill usiing my account. She somehow got the number and set it up online. I decided enough was enough and gave the banks fraud dept her contact info.

How someone who can say she has no money goes out and purchases dozens of new outfits for herself while telling our kids she's broke is beyond me. I know the OM isn't helping, as he is broke as well. Two peas in a pod.


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## Notaclue

Help, Sounds to me like this will be a short term relationship if neither has any money.


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## Help239

I agree. And when it ends, it will be because of the money. She's already having to check 3 charge cards at the mall when she buys her clothes according to the kids. How embarassing.


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## hyndsight1

Funny how materialism wins, huh. My W once told me: "I would live in a tent, if we could be together more!" Now the 'tent' (almost literally) that OM is offering doesn't look so appealing...........gee, tell me again why I should take you back?


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## Help239

I believe my W is beginning to feel this as well. She has taken to a TOTAL communication blackout and fired her second attorney. She is now representing herself. I think she's afraid of facing the facts and probably thinks there's no way back. I'm not saying there is....just that she believes she's gone too far. However due to her pride, she will not admit it to herself or anyone else for that matter.


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## Nicola B

Are you still living in the same house and if so, how does she propose you not see your kids? The rules will need to be different under one roof and only the two of you can work them out.

Lying to your spouse and losing their trust usually takes time, especially if it has got to this point. I would like to suggest that maybe you did not listen when she was telling you how she felt as it was easier not to.
This is where you should start, examine how you behaved toward your wife and then you will be able to listen and understand if she will start talking again.

Nicola Simple Divorce Advice


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## Help239

We lived under the same roof Oct-Dec and she left on her own in Jan. Her proposal was her point of view in her petition for divorce. The child mediator however recommended 50/50 on weekends which meant we both shared time with the kids during the week under the same roof. Since she moved out it's 50/50 week on/week off.

I understand where you are coming from with the "I didn't hear what she said" angle. I admit we BOTH heard only what we wanted to hear for a period of time. I also admit we BOTH could have communicated better. However, I tell you honestly that the divorce papers came as a COMPLETE shock to me and when I found out a month later that she started IMMEDIATELY seeing another man as soon as the papers were filed ..... she obviously had given up months before she said or did anything to me.

Ever since then it's been "we're not responsible for one another" yet she will lie and steal from the community funds as easily as breathing air. She does NOT want to get a job even though she has a college degree.

The things I "lied" about were not even lies. Truthfully. If I had lunch with my sister and never told you about it, is that a lie? No. If you asked who I had lunch with and I said a coworker when it was actually my sister - yeah, that's a lie. I do a whole lot of things in a given day that I never explain because it's just "stuff" but by her logic if I don't tell her about it it's a lie. Huh? The majority of these "lies" centered around family because she had a tough childhood and never was close to her mom or dad. Consequently, she never gave my family much of a chance.

"That's all I'm gonna say about that...." 
- Forrest Gump


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## Deejo

Nicola B said:


> Are you still living in the same house and if so, how does she propose you not see your kids? The rules will need to be different under one roof and only the two of you can work them out.
> 
> Lying to your spouse and losing their trust usually takes time, especially if it has got to this point. I would like to suggest that maybe you did not listen when she was telling you how she felt as it was easier not to.
> This is where you should start, examine how you behaved toward your wife and then you will be able to listen and understand if she will start talking again.
> 
> Nicola Simple Divorce Advice


Methinks you might want to know the players before trying to call the game. Or, I'm assuming your post was intended for a different thread. No disrespect but if you were familiar with Help's circumstances you would realize that your advice sounds about half as crazy as his wife.


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## Deejo

Help239 said:


> I believe my W is beginning to feel this as well. She has taken to a TOTAL communication blackout and fired her second attorney. She is now representing herself. I think she's afraid of facing the facts and probably thinks there's no way back. I'm not saying there is....just that she believes she's gone too far. However due to her pride, she will not admit it to herself or anyone else for that matter.


If she is using 'joint' funds to pay the attorneys she keeps firing, you should sue her for recovery of half the money she continues to piss away. Representing herself? All that tells me is that counsel thought she was a flake too. She isn't going to try to move this forward Help. She's just going to drag it out for as long as she can, bleed you, and continue to traumatize the kids. And when she finally realizes there is no way in hell she can get what she wants? I'll bet she'll want to come home.

Damned if I don't get fired up reading your posts. I know you still have that spark of hope, and I most certainly can understand that. I get angry because I don't think she is worthy of your hope or compassion. I only know what I read here, and the picture I get is of a completely self absorbed, vindictive, spiteful, uncompromising, wholly unrealistic and extremely damaged person. And those are her good points ...


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## Affaircare

I have to admit, on a very human side of me :iagree: 

Now I realize that really I'm not here for *you* Help or for *her* but rather for the marriage. Still, the way she acts and the way she treats you on a human level makes me a upset for you. Upset = sad, hurt and a bit angry. I am the world's biggest proponent of forgiveness and reconciliation, and truly believe where there's breath, there's hope  but wow! She's been pretty darn hurtful. And I'll just say it here--you aren't perfect but you're doing a pretty good job in the face of quite a bit of adversity.


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## Help239

Thanks for the kinds words Deejo and Affaircare. I'm really trying to take it one day at a time. Tomorrow I drop the kids off for one week and that is always a low point for me.

Yes, she has cut me to the bone and stabbed me in the back, thru the heart, taken the knife out and gutted me. But I hold onto hope for the kids. I know in their hearts they just want it back and I cannot blame them.

Let me be clear here because I know there isn't a quick fix and I might not even be able to forgive should the need arise. I have stated repeatedly to her that I will not give up on her as a person. My faith will not allow it. She is striking out at me but really only hurting herself. I am not giving her a free pass and I am also not clinging onto hope for the sake of our marriage. In my opinion, IF she ever came around to her senses we would be starting odff as complete strangers. 

The past is the past and I have nothing to hold onto but good memories. I will not let a few months poison our years of history together. I will not do so because I am reminded everyday by my kids that there was something good that came out of our union.

Not making excuses either but some of this could be chemical - she stopped taking her prescriptions long ago. In any case, I just didn't want anyone reading this thread to think I'm still in the same "emergency" mode I was in right after I got the papers and wanted to save my marrige. No, far from it. I am thinking much clearer now and understand what lies ahead for what's left of my family - with OR without my W.


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## Deejo

I don't get the sense that you are pining away or playing the role of doormat whatsoever. 

Your behavior and responses to all of this is a testament to your strength, conviction and faith. I completely understand 'not giving up on her as a person'. Funny you use that phrase, going through similar with my ex.


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## Help239

Yes, I just read your post and IT took me by surprise due to my emotional reaction. The article not so much. I guess I'm a bit confused at why I reacted that way to it and why I'm in this position only 4 months into the divorce process. Am I missing something? 

Someone told me today I "am awesome". I was relating to them how I decided to spend a little one on one time with a daughter who stayed home from school due to a slight fever yesterday. We have 4 kids and I feel these "dates" help to build self esteem. Anyways, we ended up going to home depot building a 3' x 3' enclosure for her pet rabbit. She had mentioned the cage it was in was hard to clean and too small for it. So we made something better together. Yeah, it was fun and cool. Sure, it might seem awesome to someone else. So, why don't I feel awesome?

I am so tired of this roller coaster ride of emotions. The valleys and hills are fewer and far between but they exist nevertheless. I appear strong to friends and family but inside I'm not so impervious. My faith is what drives me, my kids (God bless them) sustain me. They are my world. Leaving them even for a week at a time just destroys me. And, when they confide in me and whisper to me in confidence what they saw and/or experienced with their mother the week they were gone, it tears me apart but I have to let them know that they are loved no matter what happens.

Now you know what the source of my strength and conviction is.

I pray my W finds the courage to overcome her shame and stops hurting our children. I've given up on understanding why she's doing this. I just want it to stop and she's the only one who can stop it.


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## Help239

Called the kids tonight at 830p to say goodnight - no answer on the W's home phone. Then I just get a call from one of the kids and she wants to know "do we have to go to mom's every week?"

I ask her why she's asking and she says "because she always yells at me when we're over here". I asked what she was yelled at for. She says "mom asked me to get in the shower and I didn't want to go first". Daughter says mom yelled "get in the shower or I will drag you there myself". I told her I was sorry she got yelled at for something as silly as a shower. I told her she did nothing wrong. I told her I'd see her in a week.

And so another week begins without the kids at home.


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## hyndsight1

I feel for you man, this has gotta suck beyond belife....hang in there, keep your cool, and things will get better.


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## turnera

Document every conversation!


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## peacefully

Help, I'm sorry you are having to go through this. Have you considered therapy for the children as they go through this? Does your church offer and counselling?
You are doing such a great job and I really commend you for being so stable through this.


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## Help239

Yes, I have considered couseling for the kids but decided to suggest it AFTER the child custody is finalized. I am doing this because the 3 younger ones really don't know what's going on - they just think mom and dad are having a disagreement and probably think this separation is temporary. I know they have their suspicions due to the OM and are confused. However, I need to balance out their questions with the goal of obtaining their safety and majority physical custody before all else.

I am documenting what the kids say even though it is considered hearsay because there is just so much of it. Besides, the mediator will consider speaking to the kids if I present this as evidence.


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## peacefully

Wow Help, this must all be so overwhelming... Hang in there!


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## Help239

Thx. I called the W today (first time in 3 months) because I received a medical packet in the mail addressed to her and grew concerned due to the name of the company it came from. Although she answered sincerely "what's wrong?" she eventually got upset that I called her because of that. 

It makes no sense to me.


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## Help239

So, I am getting stressed out about the child mediation appt tomorrow morning. I have a mtg with my attorney this afternoon. I have a laundry list of things that my W has done since Oct that I must bring up in a calm and logical manner to the mediator. My goal is to convince her than my W is not acting in the best interest of our children, but in HER own best interests only.

Please keep me in your prayers.


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## turnera

Done.


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## Help239




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## seeking sanity

Double done.


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## hyndsight1

Tripple :scratchhead: done. Good luck!


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## Help239

thanks everyone.


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## Affaircare

ray:

Sending up prayers for Help as I think the meeting is today/this morning. 

Please give the mediator an open heart and ear to hear the truth; please allow Help to be encouraged that the best will be done for his children; and please allow his wife to experience the consequence of her choices so she can learn and grow.


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## Help239

So, I was able to get the mediator to agree to speak to the children. That was a huge win as far as I'm concerned. Until now it's been "he said, she said" but now they will have their own voice.

Custody was left at 50/50 although the W tried to play "victim" and wanted to have them weekdays with me only on weekends. Nope, I stuck to my guns and mentioned I have stepped up as caregiver AND breadwinner these past months and do NOT have issue continuing to do so.

I also mentioned I am keeping the house - which was a surprise to my W because she wants me to sell it even though it's underwater.

It is surreal to see someone you've spent building a family and home with for almost 15 years turn into a vindictive and bitter stranger. 

In the end the mediator cautioned her against "introducing someone to the kids too soon". Guess she failed that one.


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## whattodo17

Help-In such a crappy situation at least you were able to get the mediator to talk to your kids. Isn't it the truth about how the same person you have loved and were married to can all of a sudden be "someone else". It's weird they're still the same ole person just completely different.


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## Help239

I agree. She's putting her happiness before all else. The kids are suffering due to the situation she's forcing them to be in when they stay with her. That's why 2 of them don't want to be there and have stated so. My W said 2 of them are angry. Funny because NONE of them are angry when they are with me. She's portraying herself as supermom while I'm a deadbeat workaholic Dad.


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## turnera

Workaholic...is she paying for all of her own expenses? Even those for the kids while they are there?

I would be keeping track of that.


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## Help239

I have no insight into her expenses. Regardless, she is already depending on another and complaining that what I am giving her freely isn't enough. She lied a few times in mediation today. It will be her undoing when the kids finally have their say.


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## Affaircare

Hey Help~

I just wanted you to know that I have read your ENTIRE thread, since the first day, and I most definitely *DO* have some insights and thoughts for you. It will take me a little while to type it all out but I wanted you to know I'm working on it right now with my Dear Hubby. In the meantime I have prepared a page just for you that is in no way finished but I want you to read it. It is your homework tonight: The Disloyal Spouse Script.

As I mentioned, it is still somewhat rough draft and not entirely done, but I would like you to see if this "script" seems familiar so far. Back a little later with my thoughts!


~Affaircare


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## turnera

Help239 said:


> I have no insight into her expenses. Regardless, she is already depending on another and complaining that what I am giving her freely isn't enough. She lied a few times in mediation today. It will be her undoing when the kids finally have their say.


What I meant is, are you paying for her to live her new life? I hope you aren't.


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## Affaircare

Help~ 

As you may have guessed I have a lot to say. Today I took the time to review this whole thread and really get a feel for what has been happening. Do you mind if I summarize (for the new folks just tuning in )?

*end of Oct.'09*--She serves you with divorce papers
*mid Nov. '09*--Temp. custody mediation 50/50
*Nov. 12, 2009*--Discovery day, she's having an affair
*start of Dec. '09*--She hits you with a temp. restraining order
*mid Dec. '09*--Judge removes RO based on no evidence
*Jan. 1st '10*--She moved in with OM and removed more than half the furniture and items.
*mid Jan. '10*--She won't let kids use their cell phones, and destroyed them by throwing them on the driveway.
*end of Jan. '10*--At court for the RO, she pulled RO filing $10k in atty fees later due to lack of evidence. 
*mid Feb. '10*--She fraudulently set up pymt of her cell phone electronically from your bank acct .
*end Feb. '10*--Custody mediator says custody stays 50/50 and agrees to hear kids.

Is this "roughly" what has occurred and when? It doesn't have to be perfect, just the very details basics of what has been happening? 

The reason I ask is that if this is roughly what has occurred up to this point, and if you have read the page I wrote about the Disloyal Script, you will see that actually this is just about par for the course and actually she is behaving about as I would expect from a Disloyal Spouse deep in the dizziness. 

If you read the page I gave you for homework, you know now that Disloyal Spouses go to GREAT LENGTHS (and I mean... self-deceptive, psychological denial, extremely great lengths) to justify to themselves what they are doing. You know your soon-to-be-ex, Help. You know as well as I do and any clear-headed person here that some small corner of her heart knows that she committed adultery. In order to justify that, she had to completely rewrite the history of the marriage: she never loved you, she was never happy, you've been an (insert adjective here) monster the whole time...because you see if she never loved you that means it's not wrong to love someone else--and if she was never happy she deserves some happiness in this lifetime--and if you were an (adjective) monster gradually more and more abusive, it is okay for her to leave you for another and take everything and turn the children against you. 

Now Help...as foggy, dark and messy as it is, can you see how she kind of got here? She could not POSSIBLY be the the kind of person who would commit adultery! So it has to be you! 

Next, it is honestly almost predictable the way she is behaving. If you read my page, you'll know that in her fantasy: "...they will unite and live happily ever after; they live comfortably in the house, with the kids, child support and alimony from both of the exes (but they owe none); they get to spend all their time hopelessly in love with the perfect partner who will complete them and meet all of their needs flawlessly; and their kids and family members will be happy for them and love their soulmate." 

So your s-t-b-x has bankrolled her whole life on this fantasy, and you know and I know (and now all the people reading here in your thread know) that it is just not based in reality! She has given up her hopes, dreams, family, life, memories, home and EVERYTHING REAL for a mirage. And since all her eggs are in this basket now, she has to either "make it real" or at least pretend it's real. So, when she's living with OM now and they have money trouble, it couldn't possibly be the fantasy--she blames you and that way it's not him. And when he's not her perfect soulmate and he doesn't want to leave his wife or doesn't meet her needs flawlessly--she provokes you with a meeting and then yelling at you so that it's you and not him. And when they don't get all the property or money and have to be responsible for half the debt--it's because you're being selfish not paying her way. And when they don't get primary custody, and thus can't get child support--it's because you were a horrible parent and lied to court. And when the children are not thrilled with the OM and happy for them--it's because you poisoned their mind and say that she's a bad mother. Can you see that literally every move she's made has VIRTUALLY been to try to make her fantasy real or to convince herself that her fantasy is real? This is precisely because she gave up everything for this fantasy and gradually she is becoming away that it is exactly that: an illusion. She has to keep trying harder and harder to make her fake thing seem real. 

Okay, my guess is that right now you may be thinking  "HOLY SMOKE! I can't believe this!" and maybe you're seeing for the first time that her behavior is actually kind of predictable. So now the situation is this. If she were to admit that her affair was wrong, ask for forgiveness, and agree to end all contact with the OM ever and agree to allow you to have her passwords and let you check up on her (to see if she is contacting him)...there would be a shot in the dark of saving this marriage. It's not "inconceivable" at this point but it is ... well I would say HIGHLY UNLIKELY!! 

Help, I'm not sure what your religious beliefs are, but I am a believing Christian (but relax...I'm not gonna preach at you ). My guess, from a few of your posts, is that you are too. So speaking to you as a fellow believer, I will offer these suggestions--and if you are not a believer or a Christian that's cool, just glean what good you can and leave the rest. I'm not speaking to you high and mighty, but rather as someone who's been there and done that. At this time I would urge you not to fight for "you" or fight for "her" but to fight for your "family" as an entity. Right now your wife is taking a blowtorch to your family. Now everyone has made a mistake in their life and sadly we all on the occasion will choose to do the wrong thing. You can not "make" her love you or do the right thing by your family. But what you *CAN* do, and what I personally believe you are called to do as a godly man and father, is stand up to defend and protect your family. If she is bound and determined to do what she knows in her heart is wrong, you just can not stop her. In fact, if the non-believing person chooses to not be with us anymore, we are free and called to peace!

However, I would encourage you to do a few things. First, during this time (from filing until it's finalized and the ink is dry on the signature) take this as a time set aside to work on yourself and become the man you have the potential to be. Become the man whom she fell in love with in the first place! Look at yourself and your life, the time you spent or didn't, the way you spoke to her, etc. and admit the areas where you didn't do a good job--and during this time apart while she's just a Tazmanian Devil commit yourself to working on fixing those issues. Maybe go to your own personal counseling, or go to parenting classes, or take online courses about being a father to girls. See what I mean? This can be a GREAT time for you to grow as a man and thus whether she comes to her senses or divorces you, you will be a better person for it. Devote yourself to that and do not seek out any friendships with the opposite sex. That's just too tempting and right now you'd be vulnerable to anyone who'd say, "Oh I so understand!" Help, do the right thing--always. ALWAYS take the high road and do what you know in your heart is right, even when it's hard and it looks like evil is winning. You will never regret it. 

Second, I would suggest that you man-up a little bit. So far, you have allowed your s-t-b-x to run rough shod and rampant all over your family, causing harm to the very entity you have the duty to protect. Now from what I can see, you seem like a very gentle, loving, sensitive, thoughtful guy who's trying to win her back (or at least convince her to stop hurting you and the kids) by being "soft." It is time for your inner warrior to step up to the plate and go into defense mode (NOTE: not "defensive"). You have the obligation now to do some of the hard things that are going to be required to guard, preserve, and safeguard your family so that they can withstand the slings and arrows your s-t-b-x is shooting! So envision that you put on the armor, hold up the shield, the kids are behind you so they aren't hit, and you need to now keep them safe and let her be an out-of-control whirlwind while they are defended. Got that image? 

In order to avoid indeterminate suffering (both for you and for the children), as your wife waffles around with the affair, the other man, and the divorce...and in order to not reward her behavior by continuing to meet her needs, I would suggest that you go Dark and Silent. See, right now you may not know it but you are actually meeting some of her needs, even if it is only the need to blame you so that it's not OM or her!  There's also likely a few other needs such as some degree of financial support and maybe a few more. This Dark and Silent is for the Loyal Spouse to end all contact with the Disloyal Spouse until two things are done: all contact with the OM is ended forever, and the DS agrees to a plan to recover the marriage. I would suggest sending your wife a letter that includes these topics: that you love her, that you recognize the errors you made in your marriage that lead to this and name them, that you and the children are suffering due to her adultery (and yes, call it what it is) and that you can no longer have *any* contact with her until she agrees to end the affair and agrees to a reconciliation plan in order to protect yourself from the pain of her choices. (For some sample letters look here.) 

After that, YOU take the reins and run this show according to YOUR plan. Take the time to come up with a plan!  (What would you like to do? How would you like to do that? What do you need to do in order to do that?) No contact with your s-t-b-x can be done even with joint children. Arrange for an "intermediary" person to get a message from her and pass it on to you (she's not likely to give the intermediary venom, and if she does you don't have to hear it--the intermediary can just give you the summary of what needs to be passed along). Change your email address and cell phone number or block her. Have the children carry a notebook or exchange folder in their school backpack for any "notes" she needs to send you about an event...and anything else is written down and can be used as a document in court. Don't depend on her to keep you informed of school stuff (like homework)...YOU be the one to be in touch with the teachers, etc. If she does call, email or contact you just say, "Is this a dire emergency? Are you ready to end the affair and agree on a reconciliation plan?" If she launches off into ANYTHING else just say, "I am not willing to be in contact with you then" and hang up. If she continues to call, like over and over, document it and take the phone off the hook. 

I do recommend this because it will give you some PEACE and help lessen the rollercoaster ride of emotions she's had you on. This will give you some time to get your own future and your own lifeplan for you and your family together without her interfering. This will give you time to learn, grow, pray and mourn in privacy. AND it will give her a taste of what real divorce is: namely that you are not at her beck and call and that she will not have you as her safety net any longer. Go as Dark and Silent as you possibly can and the hope is that the shock of completely loosing you and all the needs you meet will do two things: a) the OM will have to meet all her needs and since it's a fantasy it will end faster and b) it will bring you PEACE so you can stop with the drama and emotional rollercoaster. Once that has slowed considerably, you can start to act on your own decisions for your own life being true to you and to your beliefs to the best of your ability. Does that make sense? Claim yourself, your home and your family!

If you'd like help with moving forward on going Dark and Silent, let me know. If you don't mind I'll help you right out here on the forum so other folks can see how to do it and also see what happens and how it helps you.


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## Help239

Turnera - yes, I am paying $$ because of a court order. The money I set aside all year for taxes is being cannibalized for this purpose. I cannot fight it unfortunately until a support amount is factored. That is being held up by my unemployment and her unwillingness to find a job. It was also delayed for 2 months due to the restraining orders and her change of attorneys.

AC- I appreciate the review. There are a few points you missed but for the most part it is accurate. I agree with most of what you are saying. Understand that I was a doormat and wanted to save the marriage until I found out about the OM. Since 11/14 I have been dedicating myself to being there for the children and keeping myself healthy.

Yes, I am a practicing Christian. My stb-X actually questioned my faith in the mediation session today. What nerve since she is commiting adultery. I have been wearing a "PROTECT MY FAMILY" band since Oct (from a series at church) - it's just means something different now. It used to mean protecting our marriage - for the family. Since Nov it means protecting the kids - they are my family. As for her - she thinks she is the perfect Christian woman. She even dragged the OM to church.

I have been practicing Dark and Silent since the restraining order in Dec. I've only called her directly once since then and that was this past weekend. All I can say is when she attempts contact it's usually via email and only when she needs something. I think she could care less if she never hears from me again.

She is not a far along this path as you believe. After the mediation session today I clearly see that she is still addicted heavily on the OM and will do ANYTHING to stay that way - even though it hurts the children. You are correct in that she envisions getting everything - car, house, kids, etc.

I have spent the last 2 months in reflection. I have never spoken poorly to the kids about their mother. I have usually only posted here when the children confide in me about some concern or issues regarding something happening when they are at the "other house".

I have been working out since Oct and am 145lbs. I dropped 25 pounds. I have been spending time with friends and family. I decided early on NOT to date because as crazy as it sounds I still honor my vows. I will not date until the divorce is final. I cannot do that to the kids.

I think I am doing most of what I should to stay healthy in this situation. I would be lost if I didn't have all of you to prop me up and appreciate the fact that we can share our experiences.


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## Deejo

Help, I know very well that often you may feel down and out, but you rock - and you have been a rock. The word 'noble' just isn't terribly fashionable any more, but that is how I would describe you, your behavior, and your handling of this excruciatingly painful and damaging event.


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## seeking sanity

Ditto to Deejo. 

In studies of infidelity research has shown that the betrayed partner often comes out much farther ahead in the long run than the betrayer. Life's a marathon, not a sprint, kind of thing.


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## ZoeCat

Help - Stay strong! You are a great father to your children. You are in my thoughts...


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## Help239

Thanks Deejo, SS, and ZoeCat. I sincerely appreciate your words.

Today was one of those down days. I called our healthcare provider because the stb-X was angry and accused me removing her from the policy. Turns out they were just behind on processing my COBRA pymt (none of us were covered). I got that straightened out and she emailed me a thank you (no apology). 

Here's the downer part. Then I get an email from my attorney with an attachment that included my stb-X declaration for our court date and a letter of support written by our oldest (not living at home). She is technically a step daughter but I have always treated her like one of my own. She was very supportive when the OM was revealed and told me she was "disgusted" by her mother's actions and "disowned" her. Well, the letter basically tore me apart. She blamed me as being controlling and the main reason why she moved out 4 years ago. The real reason was her mother and her got into an argument about chores, allowances, and the fact that she didn't think she needed to do them anymore because she turned 18 (years ago). It was one of those "while you're under my roof" scenarios. There were many more hurtful things listed but I won't go into them. It's obvious her mother got to her and I honestly do not blame our daughter at all. It must be so hard for her to be caught in the middle. But considering I have been the only father figure in her life for the last 15 years, it really hurt to read her letter.


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## hyndsight1

Thats hard Help. More understandable if she was younger and (more easily) brainwashed, but she is obviously old enough to make her own decisions. This is just a bump though, keep pushing...


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## turnera

Help, just keep taking the high road, especially with stepdaughter. Write to her and say you understand how she feels she has to protect her mother, though it did make you sad to hear that she thinks so poorly of you. Leave it at that. It'll get to her, eventually.


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## Help239

I was asked not to contact any of the individuals who contributed "support" emails. I will let it go. When we run into each other in the future, I will have nothing more to say to her than "hi hon" and a hug ready if she wants one. This cannot be easy for her. If she chooses to bring up the topic I will let her speak her mind. I don't need to add to her stress.

Called the kids to say goodnight and 2 of them asked me to attend their awards ceremony at school Friday morning. I told them I was proud of them for doing so well and to keep it up. I also assured them I would be there with a camera to capture their accomplishment(s). 

Then in the background I hear "hurry up and get off the phone. you need to get ready for bed. Friday is MY day and I will be the one at the awards ceremony."

So what do you think the child is going to say to that?

"Dad, are you allowed to come on Friday to see me get my award?"

.............

"yes, hon. I can be there and so can your mommy. I will see you on Friday, ok?"

Geez.


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## Help239

ran into my stb-X at the school today when I stopped by to drop off a book for our son. She tried to get me to talk to her twice. 

She saw me and instantly struck up a conversation from 40 feet away in the parking lot - as if we were still happily married and she didn't drive a knife into my back at child mediation 2 days ago.

I took a different path (there was a fork in the sidewalk) and did not respond to her. She reversed course and followed me to the school office and asked "can I talk to you for a minute?"

I went around her, smiled, and walked into the office. Afterwards I got into my car and left. What could she possibly have to say to me at this point?


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## turnera

Give me more money.


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## Affaircare

Help239 said:


> ran into my stb-X at the school today when I stopped by to drop off a book for our son. She tried to get me to talk to her twice.
> 
> (she) asked "can I talk to you for a minute?"


Help: "Are you ready to end your affair, end all contact with the other man forever, and reach an agreement on a plan to reconcile our marriage? No? Then no you can not talk to me a minute. Bye." 



> ... What could she possibly have to say to me at this point?


Help, remember what I said to you about justifying and meeting her needs? She has to work harder and harder to justify the way she's behaving and the choices she's made--because of course everything she's done is based on a fantasy. So she HAS to be in touch with you. the longer she's in touch with you, the longer she can blame you and not have to face it herself or face that the OM can't meet her needs (because all that "soulmate" stuff was FAKE)!

With regard to your step-daughter, please bear two things in mind. 1) In real life, your s-t-b-x is her real mother and you are her step and not her real father...so thinking as a child she's likely to stick with her mother with little or no clue about the realities of a marriage. My guess would be that no mature mediator or judge will consider that too too much. 2) In real life, since your s-t-b-x is working harder and harder to justify her fantasy, she has to "get people on her side." This means she will likely tell lies about you to others, including her family, your family, people at work and church, etc. And yep that includes any kids that she can convince. It is VITAL to her to convince herself and others that she is justified in leaving! 

I would personally suggest that you don't worry about her or to a degree even what she says. Let her be a tornado spinning to the side and don't let her suck you into her storm. Just *BE* honest, true, calm, patient, etc. like you are, and even if people are temporarily swayed by her lies, they will eventually see the truth of who is the calm, steady, dependable parent and who's all over the map. 

By way of a story, we had this very thing happen both with my exH and my Dear Hubby's exW. They both told our mutual friends that we were abusive, screaming, told lies about us, blamed us, even told folks in our churches! I was so tempted to go to the church folks and set them STRAIGHT...but then they began to notice he wasn't at church and I was--he had another woman--I was taking care of the kids full time and he was never around. Eventually the folks at church could see the truth, but I think if I had "joined in the tit for tat" it would not have helped and would definitely have hurt. When someone *did* come up and say something to me or ask, I'd just say "Well as you know we are divorcing and let's just say that there are many actions and choices he's made that I heartily do not agree with. But I'm choosing to not engage in that gossipy stuff so that's all I'm gonna say. You can decide for yourself."


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## seeking sanity

Affaircare that's great advice.


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## Help239

I hear ya. It's just I'm not supposed to say things to her that can lead her to believe (and construe) that I am still trying to keep him in our marriage. That's what she's been telling her attorneys, mediator, and the judge since day one. That I am an emotionally abusive stalker and will do anything to keep her against her will in this marriage. So, can you see why I would never say this to her (at least not until the paperwork is finalized and I have secured as much safety and sanity for our children as possible)?

"Are you ready to end your affair, end all contact with the other man forever, and reach an agreement on a plan to reconcile our marriage? "

The truth is I tried to save marriage for about 45 days after she filed and then threw in the towel when I found out about the OM. All I accomplished during that time was become a doormat. Ever since I have taking the higher road and watching out for the children and my health. 

You give sound advice. It's just the timing is off. I could've used that line last Nov.


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## Deejo

Before she tore the house phone out of the wall and blamed him, and before she inadvertently bumped into him at Home Depot with the kids and used that as a basis for filing a restraining order.

This is a person with only 2 modes of operation:

1. I'll be sweet as pie because I want something from you.
2. "Fatal Attraction" kinds of crazy in trying cause mayhem and harm.

He _cannot_ follow the kinds of emotional guidance that make the most sense in dealing with bad circumstances, because his circumstances passed the horizon line of bad a long time ago. She's unbalanced. I can only imagine that if Help didn't have the kind of self-restraint he obviously possesses, she'd have had him locked up and she would be in the house. She has baited him on numerous occasions.

Am I remembering this pretty much right, Help? Or am I remembering the plot of a bad horror movie?


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## Help239

It was Sams Club but you have a good memory Deejo - that pretty much sums it up and it does read like a bad horror movie huh? Sad really.

She has tried to declare that I violated the temporary restraining order by taking our daughter out to lunch on a school day. The order was for her, the house, and her car. Not our kids. I followed every due process in communicating to her and her attorney that this lunch was going to happen and that it was at the request of our daughter. Didn't matter. She still maintains I did something wrong. In the end it was thrown out and nothing became of it, but she still mentioned it in her declaration the other day.

I truly believe she's unstable. It's cliche because a large percentage of people getting divorced swear their spouse is "crazy". However, in my case the proof is in her actions as well as her fictitious statements. That is why I have been asking for a mental evaluation. It costs an arm and a leg but I would gladly pay for it if it meant my kids are out of harms way.

My daughter will always remember seeing the picture of her mommy and another man kissing - when all she wanted was to play a game on her cellphone.

My son will always remember walking in on them and hearing mommy say "I love you" after kissing him - when all he wanted was to ask her to read a bedtime story.

I could go on but I am already sad enough as it is.....


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## Affaircare

Help239 said:


> I hear ya. It's just I'm not supposed to say things to her that can lead her to believe (and construe) that I am still trying to keep him in our marriage. That's what she's been telling her attorneys, mediator, and the judge since day one. That I am an emotionally abusive stalker and will do anything to keep her against her will in this marriage. So, can you see why I would never say this to her (at least not until the paperwork is finalized and I have secured as much safety and sanity for our children as possible)?


Okay--quick note Help. I thought as I was reading your posts that you wanted to save the marriage (or at least that some small part of you thought that was the noble/honorable thing to do). If that is not the case--or well to be accurate if you think she is 100% bound and determined to act to prevent the marriage from being saved, you don't have to say "...Are you ready to end your affair, end all contact with the other man forever, and reach an agreement on a plan to reconcile our marriage? " It is just as valid to say that you fear for your safety because of the unproven allegations she has attempted to make against you, so that FOR YOUR OWN SAFETY AND SANITY you have decided that you can no longer speak to her privately, even about the children. Then make arrangements to have communication re: the kids through an unbiased third party or in a public place only or via a custody notebook or folder. Let her know you will be recording all interactions so she knows she's being recorded and then no conversation can be used against you in a court of law. Everything is either written down and copied (so it can be used in court) or it is witnessed by someone you can subpoena or it is tape recorded or video taped. Does that make sense? 

My point to you is that if she is bound and determined to divorce you--you can not stop her. It may happen against your will and you can not stop the speeding train. But she's trying to tie you to the tracks! If she wants to divorce, it is deeply sad but you are under no obligation to put up with her b.s. then. You are free to decided what you will and will not allow in your life and you do not need her drama, lies, and legal maneuvering. 

So how about this (much more accurate way of saying this) instead of the "...end the affair and agree to a plan to reconcile"? If she wants a divorce, allow her to experience the consequence of her choice, which is that she no longer has you to massacre, nor can she "force" you to talk to her or take her blame. If she wants a divorce, you are free to never speak to her directly again! 

Does that make sense? You can establish the boundary that works for *YOU* (not her) and there is nothing she can do about it. And Help, please do not say "Yeah but we have to talk because we have kids together...." No you don't. She can write in a custody notebook or folder so that there is written documentation of her manipulative lies. She can call a neighbor or friend who's willing to be intermediary; shoot a lawyer can be your intermediary (that's costly but it can be done)! And based on her instability, lies, manipulation, volatility and irresponsibility, I would say that it behooves you to never speak to her AT ALL unless there is a neutral 3rd party and/or unless it is recorded. Video taped would be the best! If she is not willing to be recorded/taped that means she is trying to unload, vent, blame or lie. Period.


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## turnera

I know a guy on another forum whose wife kept trying every way under the sun to get him hauled in for abuse, etc., and all her charges kept getting thrown out. But she didn't quit! So finally, they had to start meeting in public parking lots with cameras to exchange the kids cos she kept fabricating abuses from him, and he also started carrying a voice recorder every time he exchanged the kids. And even THEN she kept fabricating things, knowing full well he was recording her! You just never know.


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## peacefully

Help, this has been a real nightmare.
You need to not have any contact with her.

In some cases parents can speak amicably after a separation/divorce "for the kids" but it takes some time and it take two very stable and rational people to make that happen.
If you need to pass a message to her, do it through someone else or a lawyer.
Your kids need you to be sane and stable, your Ex will only serve to upset you at this point.
Don't engage with her, she'll only want to manipulate you and she'll use the kids to do it.


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## Help239

I appreciate all of the advice. Know that I have already been in the "no contact" and "avoid her like the plague" mode since December when the TRO was thrown out.

She can try as often as she wants - I'm not going to listen or be hoodwinked into a situation where she can claim anything negative. Her actions will speak louder than anything she can say at the moment.


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## Help239

Picked up kids today at school. Oldest one let me know mom said "it's official" with regards to her relationship with the OM. She told her he changed his status on FB. Will wonders never cease. Why does she feel the need to give a 13 year old a play by play?


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## hyndsight1

WTF on FB? is this the new 'vow'? don't get me started....


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## Help239

Yeah. It was "married" and now says "in a relationship with <enter name here>

He's a player - just wait until the name changes again.


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## hyndsight1

My W was a little more subtle, she had a nice pic on there of us as a 'happy couple', so she 'removed' me by zooming in on herself :smthumbup: Hasn't changed 'married' yet.


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## Help239

"subtle" is not a word I'd use to describe my stb-X.

She emailed me today asking for an appraisal of her wedding ring I had obtained 15 years ago for insurance purposes. She wants it so she can sell her ring to pay for attorneys fees. I asked her not to contact me unless it was about the kids or an emergency.

What nerve.....

She's sending our oldest pics of her new makeover today - but of course she has no money.


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## hyndsight1

:crazy:


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## Help239

Yep. She wants to be friends. No thank you.

Why would I want to do anything to continue to enable her codependent and crazy behavior? I'm not going to play any of her games.


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## Help239

Now she's "concerned" about the effect the child mediator session will have on the children. Even though she agreed last week to have them each speak on their own behalf.

Hmmm.....

Maybe you should've been as concerned when:

1) your child saw you kissing the OM and saying "I love you" when all they wanted was a bedtime story
2) your child saw a picture on your cell phone of you and OM kissing when all she wanted was to play a video game
3) you left your kids alone (one sick with fever) in a hotel room while you went out for 5 hours to party 
4) you flipped out and screamed at them in the car because they wanted to come home to do homework
5) you left them alone in a car while you went shopping
6) you tell them you're broke but fill the back of the car up with new clothes for yourself
7) you sent our son to school without underwear
8) our daughter was 30 minutes late to soccer practice and you dropped her off without shoes (hey but you were on time for your appt)
9) you invited the OM over to our house the entire week between Christmas and New Years because "his family was out of town"

Bottom line, the kids aren't dumb and they see through your BS.


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## turnera

Make sure you print out your thread and give it to the mediator before the meeting.


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## hyndsight1

What a breakthrough, huh! This 'concern' tells me that she might have seen the writing on the wall and is now realizing that her negligent parenting is going to come around and bite her in the a$$. A direct result of letting them "speak on their own behalf"=karma. I think we know what her real "concern" is......


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## Help239

I agree.

"I'm not afraid of what they will say" is what she typed.

I'm pretty sure that's EXACTLY what she's afraid of.


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## Inturmoil

Help239 said:


> Picked up kids today at school. Oldest one let me know mom said "it's official" with regards to her relationship with the OM. She told her he changed his status on FB. Will wonders never cease. Why does she feel the need to give a 13 year old a play by play?


Help I feel for you man and can completely relate to your situation....only in my case my stbx is giving my 6.5 yr old daughter the play by play....and I don't know what to do about it Hang in there....it will get better in time(or so they keep telling me!)


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## Affaircare

Help~

Do please bear one thing in mind. Your children are just that--children. They do not know every detail of what is going on, and even if they did, they are not old enough or mature enough to process it. To their minds, she is their mother and what she says is important. So please don't build yourself up into thinking they are going to go to the mediator and wisely delineate for a stranger all the ways their own mom has hurt them. They probably think somehow that they deserve it! 

My point here is that they may be great kids who can see through her smokescreen but just don't be surprised if they say something like "Mom left me alone in a motel room when I was sick while she went out, but I was just sleeping anyway." She is their mother and human beings want to love and be loved by their parents.


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## Help239

I understand that completely. I just wanted them to have a voice because they are conflicted. I also wanted to give them a chance to set some things straight if the mediator asked them specific questions. There are some things being declared as the truth that are outright lies. The kids have been witness to some of these incidents and can speak the truth.


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## Help239

Now I am being accused of masterminding her downfall and demise. I somehow predicted we would end up in this situation and promised her she would never see a dime or get the children.

Someone needs to get a grip on reality. If she loses out on any support it will be due to her own actions. Further, I do not control real estate values and did not blow our 2nd mortgage on my home business. If the children are angry with her for what she has done, it is not because of anything I have said or pointed out.


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## turnera

Document her craziness.


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## Deejo

Hope things despite obviously becoming more volatile for her, that the overall circumstances are steering towards calmer waters you and the kids.


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## Help239

We have a court date on Monday and I will hope for the best. She has tried to contact me 3 times today by phone and is not responding to my emails asking why she's calling.


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## Affaircare

Help maybe you can answer the phone and say "Is this an emergency?" If it is listen. If not, just say "Okay then I chose to not talk to you. Thanks bye!"


I mean if it's blood or fire--cool. If she wants someone to (cough) whine (cough) to, the OM is right there and he can see her as she really is.


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## Help239

It was about whether or not our 13 yr old was on iTunes today. Geez......


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## Affaircare

:rofl: LOL 

Oh brother. I guess she's grasping at straws--no one to blame or yell at maybe??


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## Help239

Probably. Or maybe she was concerned our daughter would put us into the poor house by buying singles on iTunes. Either way, don't bother me - I'm living my life without you.


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## turnera

Help239 said:


> We have a court date on Monday and I will hope for the best. She has tried to contact me 3 times today by phone and is not responding to my emails asking why she's calling.


 I know someone just like her. She wants you to pick up the phone because she believes in her 'power,' her ability to sway any conversation into getting what SHE wants. 

She wants you to answer the phone so that she can wrap you back around her finger.


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## MEM2020

I knew someone had a rule with his ex - if she sent him a text 911 then he would take her call immediately after he got the text. Anything else she had to put the content in the text and ASK him if he was willing to discuss it. 



Help239 said:


> Probably. Or maybe she was concerned our daughter would put us into the poor house by buying singles on iTunes. Either way, don't bother me - I'm living my life without you.


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## Help239

Our rule over 15 years of marriage was that if she called 3 times in short succession that I would pick up on the 3rd call NO MATTER WHAT I was doing - meeting, restroom, whatever. That was reserved for emergencies. The calls today were over a few hours time. Yet, the topic to be dicussed was so ridiculous.

Off topic -
Is it wrong of me to "settle" on Monday? After what the kids have been thru I want to spare them any more BS. If the mediator recommends 50/50 continue should I just accept it? Proving she's doing things that negatively impact the kids will not change her or keep her from continuing to do so. There's no way they will grant me 100% custody which means she will always be able to use them to hurt me. 

Opinions? Understand that the situation will not be permanent and can change if new evidence is presented in the future. My primary goal has been and will continue to be to protect the kids.


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## hyndsight1

My Ws actions have as you know been (relatively) sane in comparison, but I will tell you this. She is very affraid (for the life of me I can't tell why, I have been nothing more than reasnoble), that I am "out to get her". Maybe her friends/lawyer, I don't know, but the few times we have talked productively, she is a completely different person from the day to day. I think this little bit of 'trust' (ironic) that I am willing to do what is best for the kids, eases her mind and opens doors to compromise.......my 2c


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## Deejo

I don't think you should settle. But ... that doesn't mean you need to, or should use the kids as a bargaining chip.

Everyone comments about the impact of litigation on kids, but let's face it - you're already dealing with that fallout due to your wife's erratic behavior. She has assured that no matter what does happen - she isn't going to go along quietly.

She still believes that if she stamps her feet and screams often and loudly enough, that she will get her way. Giving in, is simply the wrong message to send to this person - it encourages her to push the limit, rather than acknowledge a gesture of compromise and toning down her bullsh!t.

Your circumstances, I don't discount that you are living them and know best. She simply still seems hell-bent on burning you down and 'winning' more so than focusing on the welfare of her children and family.


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## hyndsight1

Btw Help, didn't mean to give the 'just lay down' line. Quite the contrary, I agree w/ Deejo that it looks like your W is pretty focused, but carefully balancing the practical against the emotional at this point could make a difference in the end. Choose your battles: If YOU think settling might give her the impression that she 'won one', she might let down her guard......a little? That would be the only upside. If you know there is no chance in that, don't budge.


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## Help239

My intuition tells me it's time to talk to the kids about what they want. It might surprise you all that I haven't done that yet but I have always kept my mind on the end goal of securing their safety and not impacting their feelings towards their mother. But since they have already seen the mediator and Monday is D-day, it's time.


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## Affaircare

Help239 said:


> Is it wrong of me to "settle" on Monday? After what the kids have been thru I want to spare them any more BS. If the mediator recommends 50/50 continue should I just accept it? Proving she's doing things that negatively impact the kids will not change her or keep her from continuing to do so. There's no way they will grant me 100% custody which means she will always be able to use them to hurt me.
> 
> Opinions? Understand that the situation will not be permanent and can change if new evidence is presented in the future. My primary goal has been and will continue to be to protect the kids.


One thing I frequently see happen that is just ... well frankly counter-productive... is when two people divorce and both are hell-bent on getting custody at all costs. From the parent point of view, they see the other doing all these things that are "harmful" to the children so they go on this crusade to slaughter the other parent and get 100% custody. Honestly? That *VERY RARELY* happens. I've seen crackheads in prison for attempted murder still retain their parental rights and some custody. So if someone on crack, who's in prison, who tried to murder someone else does not lose custody, chances are that a spouse who cheats and is selfish won't either. 

If it were me, I'd explain to the mediator that there are some behaviors that concern you (and show the examples) but that recognize the kids need a healthy relationship with their mom. Then make a suggestion that is realistic like: guardianship/decision-making stays 50/50 but let the kids homebase with you for stability and security--their own rooms, in their own home, in their neighborhood, in their school. Then visitation is frequent and liberal--like everyday that she arranges it! 

Here is why I suggest that. Of all the battles to be fought, she can be nuts and have "stuff" but the kids need to be defended. And chances are about 100% that what she wants are two things: "To Win" and "No responsibility." If she can say custody/guardianship is 50/50 but have none of the burden of raising the kids and be more free to be nuts with OM she may go for it, consider it a win, and somewhat leave you and the kids alone. Then they are free to be raised in a mostly stable environment and you can teach them tools how to deal with her. -_AND- to the mediator you look sane and like you think of the children before your own desire to slaughter her_. 

It is my personal opinion that if you go for 100% custody and nothing else, you will be fighting a battle that's highly, HIGHLY unlikely and it will do nothing but prolong the fight and increase the hurt for everyone. The goal is not always custody on paper--the goal is that you have the kids in their home in an environment of peace and stability. I speak from two personal experiences, Help. In my divorce, it was 50/50 on paper and the homebase thing...and my ex ended up arranging a visit about once a month despite living 3 miles away. The kids DID ride bikes over after school very often though. And in my Dear Hubby's divorce again it is 50/50 on paper but she has them less than once a month and they live with us full time. 

So come off as REASONABLE and willing to creatively come up with solutions...and you'll likely end up with more time with the kids.


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## Help239

Well we already had our mediation session so that's not going to happen. The court date on Monday is for the OSC.


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## Help239

Not more than 30 minutes after picking up the kids today and she's asking for $$ for a field trip for one of them. It seems she cannot come up with $25 for dinner although she paid the fee for the trip. Oh, and that came with a "friends" email and were both loving parents pat on the back - right next to the knife she stuck in back in November when she filed the RO. Bizarre behavior.


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## Help239

Gets better - the OM added me as a friend on facebook - like I was going to accept. I forwarded the email to my wife - wtf? - and she didn't take it seriously. Then an hour later she apologized for him.

It's obvious he wanted me to see the "official" status of "in a relationship with W" - my daughter already told me last Friday. He's a pathetic piece of crap.


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## turnera

You should share their happy moment with everyone you know.

"Look, guys, the guy my wife left me for, who sleeps with married women, now wants to be my FB buddy. Let's celebrate with him!"


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## Help239

She tells him to back off - like she's protecting me. I tell her thanks but no thanks.


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## peacefully

turnera said:


> You should share their happy moment with everyone you know.
> 
> "Look, guys, the guy my wife left me for, who sleeps with married women, now wants to be my FB buddy. Let's celebrate with him!"


:iagree:

I love that Turnera! Cheaters are scumbags, and should be called out!


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## Help239

She says she's sorry her actions hurt me and hopes I can forgive her. Email. Am I missing something?

She really believes she did nothing wrong - that she didn't commit adultery because she filed for divorce.

This is not sincere. This is just to get into my head before court.


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## Help239

Child mediator recommended 50/50 timeshare. Judge will be making a decision this morning.


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## Deejo

The fact that this is exactly what you have already been doing successfully, leads me to believe that it is unlikely a judge is going to muck with what has been working.

Refresh my memory, is she still pursuing full custody, or is she in agreement with the 50/50 recommendation?

Will be thinking of you today.


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## hyndsight1

Good luck Help.....


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## Help239

Thanks both of you for your thoughts. She tried again to pursue full custody and the judge shut her down. It stays 50/50.

She was awarded some support today and continued to lie about her situation with the OM. No cohabitation but his mail is being delivered to the house, she sleeps on his bedroom furniture, and he sleeps over 5 nights per week. Hmmm.....


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## Help239

And today she calls me twice - 

W - "I don't want there to be any animosity between us"
me - "A little late for that isn't it ?"
me - "What to you want?"
W - "To meet and talk."
me - "I'm at work and you'll have to call me back" 

Then she texts me
"What do you want from me?"

And I wrong to assume that SHE wants something from me? I do not need anything from her - pain, lies, even love as I would most certainly reject it at this time. I believe she wants forgiveness and I am not in a place to give that to her yet. Is it wrong for me to keep her at a distance?


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## seeking sanity

No it's not wrong for you keep her at a distance. It's sensible and a way to create safety. The question to ask yourself is exactly that: What do YOU want? No promises you can get it, but understanding that question is a step forward.

BTW: I don't believe you don't want anything from her. If I were you, I'd want her to at least stop lying and being manipulative.


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## Help239

Thanks SS.

What I have learned from the process is that the truth doesn't really matter to anyone except those being wronged. The judge and lawyers don't care about the truth. What matters is perception.

Sure I can ask her to stop lying and being manipulative but I don't think she will care or comply. I think she wants something from me and will brush off any requests from me without a 2nd thought. 

If I ask her to stop hurting the kids and using them she will become defensive.

At this point the only sensible response is not to respond.

Anyone else have an opinion?


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## seeking sanity

You are missing my point. What is it YOU want. Write it down. You may not be able to get it right now, and she may or may not ever get her head out of her ass, but by defining what you want, it gives you clarity on how to act in a way that can help make it happen. 

It's a version of goal setting. The first step to success in anything is to have a clear picture of what you want.

What does your life look like? How does your ex wife act towards you? What experience do the kids have? What do you do to nurture yourself? That sort of thing.


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## Help239

Goal: I want my kids to be happy and cared for. I want to stay healthy for them. I want to find a job that is flexible enough for my current situation.

Current situation: When they are with me I can ensure their happiness and safety. I go to the gym every night when they aren't with me. I am on a temp contract and still looking for a permanent job. I will not consider dating until my divorce is final.

Bottom line is I'm moving on. She is feeling guilty and wants to use the kids AGAIN as an excuse. Who in their right mind would even suggest a "can't we all just get along" moment THE DAY AFTER they try to wrangle primary custody of the children and admit to the OM sleeping over 5 nights a week?


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## MEM2020

I think you could tell her you would like all your important communication to be via email to prevent miscommunication. This reduces her ability to lie about you and what you have said / what you have agreed to. 

When will your divorce be final? 





Help239 said:


> Goal: I want my kids to be happy and cared for. I want to stay healthy for them. I want to find a job that is flexible enough for my current situation.
> 
> Current situation: When they are with me I can ensure their happiness and safety. I go to the gym every night when they aren't with me. I am on a temp contract and still looking for a permanent job. I will not consider dating until my divorce is final.
> 
> Bottom line is I'm moving on. She is feeling guilty and wants to use the kids AGAIN as an excuse. Who in their right mind would even suggest a "can't we all just get along" moment THE DAY AFTER they try to wrangle primary custody of the children and admit to the OM sleeping over 5 nights a week?


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## Notaclue

Help239 said:


> Thanks both of you for your thoughts. She tried again to pursue full custody and the judge shut her down. It stays 50/50.
> 
> She was awarded some support today and continued to lie about her situation with the OM. No cohabitation but his mail is being delivered to the house, she sleeps on his bedroom furniture, and he sleeps over 5 nights per week. Hmmm.....


Help, I forgot which state you are in, but in Florida if you can prove he is living with her ( private eye with video., lol) she loses alimony, a recent change in the Florida law and a lot of women have been surprised by this.


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## Help239

Divorce can be final as of April since that is 6 months after she filed. However, with all the BS that's been going on, we could be in the courts for awhile.

I'm in California.

Been a hard day, and it only took a 40 second phone call to put me on the defensive again. One day she will no longer be able to affect me this way.


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## Deejo

The more she realizes that she no longer has control, you can pretty much bet that she is going to try to find a way to wrestle it back from you. That will mean more contact, and more mixed messages from her.

I think the email only communication request is a good one. May not be practical at all times, but gives you an easy out any time she starts to go someplace with the conversation that you don't want to follow.


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## Help239

I hear ya. She tried again today. Even if she is being sincere - which I highly doubt - it's too soon for me to consider her as a friend. At this point I'm not even sure it's possible.

For her, it's easy. Her conscience is clear and she sees nothing wrong with what she has done and continues to do. I think she actually expects me to attend our son's birthday party at the end of the month with the OM present.


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## Notaclue

What is it with Spouses who cheat and expect the loyal spouse to embrace their new and adulterous lifestyle and be friends with their cheating lover ? Happened to my BIL the same way. 

Honestly Help, I think it's an insult for your W to allow this OM to attend your Son's birthday party. I can't see how her conscience can be clear and I'd let her know how wrong she is.


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## Help239

I can say that but it will fall on deaf ears. Here's someone who has left our children ALONE with this man twice this week already. She is someone who was abused as a child by a family member and has always been cautious about leaving our kids alone with a single adult. Now that doesn't even seem to matter.


----------



## Help239

So we had some email exchanges last night and it all became clear. She tried agan to get me to change up the visitation schedule. I declined and stated I'd like to leave it the way the court order has it setup 50-50. All the while she was playing the "we're friends" angle. So what did she do after I decined to give her what she wants? 

She was going to "work" tomorrow and wanted to drop the kids off at my place 8 hours early. Now all of a sudden that's not going to happen anymore.

Clearly she is BSing and using the kids as a bargaining tool. I'm glad I didn't fall for it.


----------



## morningdew

You're a strong person, Help! How is your kids holding up? That to me sounds like she's trying to rubbing it off by having the OM present for your son's birthday...did she not even consider how your son would've feel? Oh Lord!


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## Help239

I am worried about our two older girls. One becomes very closed up and the other one says she's fine but I can see she is holding her feelings in. 

My stb-X said she always WANTED to give me first choice if she needed someone to watch the kids but I don't so she didn't. I had to clarify for her that when I get FAMILY to watch them while I WORK it's NOT the same as the OM watching them when you go PARTY. As a matter of fact, day care while you work is the ONLY exclusion in our first right of refusal order.


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## turnera

Children whose parents go through what you're going through should nearly always see a child psychologist, IMO. Their whole world is torn to shreds, and they are kids. You can't expect them to be able to deal with what's happening. Get them some help.


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## Help239

turnera - I agree 100%. I am simply waiting for the divorce to be final. When ANYTHING I do can be misrepresented by my W it's difficult to make any moves. Even asking the child mediator to speak to them turned into an exercise in negativity.


----------



## Help239

So I call the kids tonight to say goodnight and who picks up the phone? That's right, the OM. I hung up and called back. Then the stb-x picks up the phone and I ask to speak to the kids.

So, maybe just a accident that he picked up? Nope.

One of the kids tells me mom picked up the phone the first time and handed it to the OM. She has caller ID and did it on purpose. Things like this really put the nails in the coffin. She's trash pure and simple.


----------



## peacefully

Oh Help, that is so awful and hurtful. That was such a low thing for both of them to do. It was low of her to hand the phone to him and low of him to take it. They deserve each other.
She obviously has serious problems if she is getting her kicks from trying to hurt you.


----------



## Help239

Remember, she wants to be friends for the kids but pulls stunts like this. So she talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk. She definitely is someone I do not even know anymore.

Well, I filed a motion today for the court to have her take a vocational exam. She has multiple degrees but has only applied to 2 RETAIL positions at clothing stores in the last 5 months. Clearly she wants to live off of support and continue living the life she's used to without any of the responsibility of providing financially for the kids.


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## Deejo

Glad to hear it. I find it mind boggling that you would be required to give her any kind of support given the 50/50 arrangement. I find it even more mind boggling that she's surprised to find out that you aren't simply lying down and taking it.

She was hoping for the doormat and got a brick wall instead. Good for you Help.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Help239

She sends me a text this morning saying she's thinking of me a lot lately. 

Yeah, and? Like it matters at this point.


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## Deejo

She's going to play this tune louder the more her life starts to suck. She's still baiting you. She wants you to respond.

Eventually, you may even get pleading and tears - and she will have suffered a complete loss of memory regarding the absolute hell and bullsh!t she put you through.


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## Help239

That's fine. I'll never forget. Too much water under the bridge now. I'll eventually forgive but most likely will never forget.


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## Help239

Our son celebrated his 7th birthday today. Sucks I cannot be there for him. This really hits home.


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## Deejo

I know it hurts. But you can put a smile on it for the both of you by making it clear he gets two parties.

Despite all of the sh!t wife and I have endured, I do not take for granted our ability to co-parent our kids. I hope for your entire family's sake that someday, your wife can find some balance and respect in your interactions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## morningdew

Help so sorry to hear that hope you and your son can have a 2nd birthday party ASAP.


----------



## Help239

Thanks both of you. Yes, our son knows he gets a second party on Saturday. I was just confused about my stb-x's intentions.

A month ago our son was happy that both of us would be at his party. Apparently his mother had told him so when he asked her. Then , after the court date and 50/50 being maintained, he tells me he has "bad news" and mom says you cannot be at my party. That is when I set up the 2nd party. Then yesterday he leaves me a voicemail asking me if I'm going to be at his party? I called him from work and wished him a Happy Birthday. Told him I didn't know about his party.

I guess he was told she had sent me an invite. Nope. Then last night I call to say goodnight and my stb-X send s me a text saying it sucks we can't spend his birthday with him together.

I was so confused but in the end she's just being manipulative. I never responded to any of her texts.

This morning I wake up to "how long are you going to be mad at me"..... I hit snooze and slept in.


----------



## Deejo

You are a better man than I.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## peacefully

Help, it sounds to me like she wants to keep drawing you in with her drama. She wants attention from you and she is manipulating to try and get it. It was the same kind of situation when she handed the phone to the OM.
She wants to have the excitement of a new relationship, but to keep you on the line to get what she wants from you.
I am looking forward to when you can move forward, without her.
Bless you for standing by what is right.


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## Help239

Deejo said:


> You are a better man than I.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks!



peacefully said:


> Help, it sounds to me like she wants to keep drawing you in with her drama. She wants attention from you and she is manipulating to try and get it. It was the same kind of situation when she handed the phone to the OM.
> She wants to have the excitement of a new relationship, but to keep you on the line to get what she wants from you.
> I am looking forward to when you can move forward, without her.
> Bless you for standing by what is right.


Thanks! I am keeping my distance and do not trust her at all. No communication unless it's about the children. I am sticking to it because it helps keep my emotions at bay.


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## Help239

Happy Easter everyone! I picked up my kids this morning as I have them 9-6 even though it's her week. Pulled up and they were running late. 

The OM comes out and starts messing with his car - but he's dressed for church? Not his cup of tea I'm told but it was too funny. Guys got a beer gut and 3 chins. Then my stb-x came out in a pink number and all I can say is she must have stopped going to the gym. My guess is she was trying to get me upset by seeing them together but actually I was smiling and almost laughing. They deserve each other.

He tries to get the attention of 2 of the kids as they are walking to my car - got owned both times as they ignored him. Lol....

Kids found their easter baskets at home and we are going to make rice krispy treat eggs and decorate them with chocolate and icing. Then a bike ride to the park for a picnic followed by a trip to the animal shelter. We are about a week or two away from rescuing a puppy (maybe 2). Right now they are relaxing and playing Wii. 

Happy Easter


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## turnera

So...you CAN have a good life with your kids despite the drama. Good to hear.


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## Help239

Yes, it has been a good day. Even hearing the stb-x and OM used our timeshare last weekend didn't bother me that much. It will all come out in the wash my grandma used to say. She will get hers - karma will come back around and pay her a visit.


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## del88

Separation and divorce is a really big decision. I would suggest some time apart and at the same time be very open and understanding to each other. Perhaps, over time, this would invite some honest and meaningful discussion about your future.


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## Help239

Um, you need to understand my situation . You're about 6 months behind.


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## Help239

Lol ... the stb-x's latest drama - picking up our kids with the OM. That's right, they pulled right up to the house in his SUV and he got out and let the kids in while she sat in the passenger seat. Wonderful.


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## seeking sanity

Hey Help, maybe this is a time to celebrate small victories. I scanned your thread, and look back at the mess you were when this started, and the man you are now. You've grown a ton in the past 6 months of so (or whatever it is), and gotten to a much better emotional place.

I want to congratulate you on acting with courage, principles and patience. You're a good guy.


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## Help239

Thanks - I really appreciate that. My kids are number one and that's all I need to worry about. As long as I am able, I will make sure they are cared for and safe. 

I can't wait to sign the papers. Not out of spite, mind you, but just to be over that hurdle and move on with our lives. Looking into dating again and I have made it clear to our kids that Dad will not bring any strangers into our home unless he's sure she's someone they should get to know. Wish their mom could see the damage she's doing.


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## Help239

Just checking my thought process here. When I call every night to say goodnight to the kids when they are at the stb-x's house - and the OM (who she maintains doesn't live there) picks up the phone - I hang up then I call back.

I'm not afraid of the guy or anything. I just think it's wrong for him to answer (or for her to hand him the phone when she see's caller id) when I call at the same time every night to simply say goodnight.

I have nothing to say to him and my stb-x had a fit over it last night because she said I should be "man enough" to ask him to give the phone to the kids.

Am I missing something here? She has this incredibly warped view of wanting us to talk and be friendly? I know she's trying to get under my skin.

Thoughts?


----------



## Affaircare

Here's how I see it Help. She is completely free to destroy her marriage, lie her way into another man's arms, and irreparably harm her children and you can not stop her. YOU are just as completely free to not speak to the OM. I would say that you call there, record his voice saying hello every night when you call at bedtime, record that in your daily calendar (called at 10pm, OM answered) to show the pattern of him being there every night late at night, and use it in court. 

THEN in your parenting plan, include "HELP will call every night at 10pm when the kids are in STBXW's care and she will not attempt to force HELP to speak with OM. Either she or a child will answer the phone when it rings at precisely 10pm." 

It may or may not wind up in the final draft, but what the heck--why not try for it. She can't force you any more than you can force her to not destroy her children.


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## Deejo

She wants 'Man Enough...'?

Show up at her doorstep some night to say good night to the kids and ignore Chumley.

Your wife is evil and must be destroyed.

I say this of course, as tonight I will be picking up my son and daughter from the house where they are being watched by TOM. Stbx went to an autism conference, lo and behold TOM is babysitting all day seeing as he has a 'flexible work schedule' and doesn't cost any money. I almost feel bad for him. Almost ...


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## Help239

Thanks for the advice. Deejo, we are in similar situations. My stb-x also leaves our children with the OM. Knowing that she was physically abused as a child my a family member, it absolutely ASTOUNDS me that she will leave them with someone she has only known for a few months. In almost 15 years she has never let their safety be in question. Now it's her needs before everything else.


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## turnera

What does she say when you remind her of that?


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## Help239

She never responded. In any case she's all over the map. Some days I get texts that I'm on her mind and she's wishing me well. Next day I'll get slapped upside the head with texts that say I need to grow up and act like a man.

Keep in mind I'm still practicing no contact so there aren't any messages from me facilitating these texts from her. I'm guessing the kids are giving her and the OM a hard time and she takes it out on me. It's all my fault, right? No, go sell crazy somewhere else. I'm no longer buying it.

I keep my responses professional and to the point. I never respond angrily. She hates that.


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## Help239

Got a text this morning just after midnight "Today we're single again". Sheesh - I guess she is counting the minutes. Dumb thing is even though it's been 6 months to the day we're still married in the eyes of the law. And here she thinks it's all said and done.


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## turnera

So sorry. You have better days ahead of you. 

{{{Help239}}}


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## peacefully

Help, your EX sounds like a complete nut. It seems to me that she still wants attention from you... I imagine that she will keep trying to get attention even after things are settled, and especially if and when you meet someone in the future- expect that she will try to sabotage you along the way or try to get back into your life.
I don't have any advice, but I can in some ways relate to your story and wish this was not happening for you.


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## Help239

Nut? I agree. She even took it up a notch last night. One of our kids forgot an ipod at her place so I simply asked if she could leave it on her porch and we'd pick it up sometime later. Here's her reply:

"Can you give us a few..we are in the middle of something - you understand, celebrating alone".

I didn't bite. Which led to this rant a little later:

"Maybe someday you will stop your $h1t and grow up. you are nothing more than a common a$$ these days. OM and I are enjoying ourselves to please go take a shower or something"

I replied:

"Everyone over here is already showered and the kids are in bed. Not sure why a simple request to leave an ipod on your porch would make you so upset. glad to hear you're enjoying yourselves but in the future you can keep that to yourself"

Yep, nuts.


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## peacefully

Help, I think she is trying to bait and provoke you, it's terrible. 
My ex is always trying ways to get my attention back to him. I don't know why they do it- I think some people crave drama. In my situation, my EX tries to get my attention, but if I give it to him, he rejects me and it inevitably hurts me all over again.
I wish that I had your resolve! You are handling this all so well.


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## Notaclue

Help, It looks to me like you are driving her crazy and killing her with kindness. She wants a fight in the worst way and you aren't biting. 
It's got to make her even more incensed that you are making light of her comments. I think she still cares about you in a twisted way and is trying to make you jealous.


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## Help239

I think you are both right. One day she will realize she no longer has a hold over me. One day she will realize she is only hurting herself and our children. I have let her go.


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## Deejo

It's just such an absolute waste of energy.

It's just really very sad. My wife thinks I'm the one who's damaged and unpredictable. I can't even give a coherent response because she assumes I'm trying to control her mind (which I am of course, because that's what we jilted spouses do. We sit around and think up ways to be controlling and manipulative)

The person I fell in love with and married is scarcely recognizable. I find that tragic. 

You have class and style, Help. Very few can lay claim to one of those attributes, let alone both. I don't doubt that it is extremely aggravating and sometimes painful, but your resolve is admirable.


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## Help239

Thanks Deejo. I appreciate the comments. 

Yes, my stb-x also claims I've been lying since she left the house in Jan and also have been controlling her. She must have this place bugged to have such insight into my life. Lol....

When I asked politely that she let the children answer the phone when I call at 830p to say goodnight she said THAT was controlling and that her male friend can answer the phone is he wants. Yep, I'm controlling the horizontal and the vertical folks - don't adjust your screens. It's all on me.

I don't think so.


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## MEM2020

Help,

She is truly being hateful - I mean HATEFUL having the OM answer - pushing it in your face when they have sex. If she was happy she would have NO DESIRE to do that. 

I think you keep doing exactly what you are - she will be steadily more miserable as time passes.




Help239 said:


> Thanks Deejo. I appreciate the comments.
> 
> Yes, my stb-x also claims I've been lying since she left the house in Jan and also have been controlling her. She must have this place bugged to have such insight into my life. Lol....
> 
> When I asked politely that she let the children answer the phone when I call at 830p to say goodnight she said THAT was controlling and that her male friend can answer the phone is he wants. Yep, I'm controlling the horizontal and the vertical folks - don't adjust your screens. It's all on me.
> 
> I don't think so.


----------



## Help239

At our wedding my best man described me as "determined". He said in all the time he's known me he always admired how I could adapt and overcome and stay calm under fire. All the while keeping an eye on the main goal and never losing focus.

It's the way I have always been. She knows that. The goal here? That's easy. Keep the kids safe and cared for. I do believe I will be revisiting the custody issue and requesting majority custody within a few months. 

The stb-x will undoubtedly marry the OM before the end of the summer and the kids want nothing to do with that. I even saw an example of this in court last month where a parent had primary custody and lost it when they remarried. Their 14 year old sppoke to the judge directly and voiced her opinion. Just like that they lost custody.

Sad it has to come to this but my intentions are nothing but honorable. I have no desire to undermine her position as their mother. However, she is already doing that in overtime by ignoring their needs and putting hers before anyone elses.

They don't ask for help with homework or request books or prayers for bedtime anymore because she gets mad at them. She's too busy behind a locked door - their words - not mine.


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## peacefully

Help, I really admire your resolve and your attitude. 

It takes a lot to be able to carry forth with such dignity and grace. You are being such a great role model to your children.
Having that consistency will really help them through this. 
I've seen so many marriages that have ended and the parents are too selfish to get it together enough to be consistent (is, doing what I did, waffling back and forth) or to end things with dignity. It is very sad.
I know if I had children, I would have wanted to move forth and to handle things as honorably as you have. Bravo.


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## Help239

I appreciate the comments peacefully. Sincerely, I do.

I just got an email from my stb-x complaining that our daughter needed her laptop for a science project that is due tomorrow.

That was followed by an IM message from our daughter upset that mom "hates me". I asked her why she would think that and she said "because she yelled at me". I asked why she got yelled at and she replied "because I cannot remember how to do a bilbliography".

Geez. I told her she didn't do anything wrong and that I could email her information on her science project from her laptop. I threw in a link to an example blibliography too. She was grateful and thanked me.

I am furious that her mother cannot even peel herself away from the fantasy that is her life with this OM to concentrate on her kids. It took me all of 30 seconds to find an example bibliography online.

No question. If this behavior doesn't change soon I am going for primary custody.


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## turnera

Document, document!


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## Help239

The craziness continues. She calls my attorney today to ask about getting her scrapbooking stuff (about 20-30k) from the garage. "He doesn't need it" is her angle. Yeah, but you bought it with community funds so it's not your property. I'd like something of equal value in trade and I'm not just going to give it away. She already took whatever she wanted on New Years.

Why is this crazy? Well, because on the 15th she sent me a link to a music video and the song basically has the message that the wife wants the husband to stand up and fight for her and lead her in life religiously. 

She is losing it. One extreme to the next.


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## Help239

Tonight is open house for our 3 youngest children. I have been planning on attending - it is my right even though they are with her this week. I heard from one child that mom said only the parent who has the kids that week can go. I told them that was not correct. 

Then yesterday I get a text telling me mom wants us to go to open house together. I agreed.

Then I get a text asking me if I thought mom wanted that because she knew she couldn't keep me from coming or if she wanted something from me. I cried. I told our child I didn't know why but she shouldn't be thinking about her mother that way. She's just a kid afterall.

Then I was asked by one of the children when I called to say goodnight if I wanted to join them for dinner before open house. I politely declined. My stb-x is trying to use the opportunity to make it appear as if I'm ok with her actions and to let the kids see we're still friends. I chose not to participate in any of her manipulations.

I will be there 100% for the children. However, the boat has sailed a long time ago for my stb-x. Especially since she continues to believe she has done nothing wrong.


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## turnera

Stay the course. You're doing well.


----------



## Help239

Thanks tunera.

My stb-x said hi when I arrived at open house and I replied. At the end she said bye and I replied. As we split paths I heard her tell the kids - "see he doesn't even say goodbye". I stopped turned around and said "I did say goodbye". Then I walked away. She's always looking to turn nothing into something she can use against me.

Anyways, the kids and their schoolwork - I'm speechless. Wonderful amazing children who are doing very well in school. Open house was great - our kids are so smart and creative.

The stb-x? She's gained weight. She's trying to look 15 years younger. Almost 40 and she had on leather knee high black boots with straps, a zebra stripped blouse with slits in the shoulders. And what appeared to be a mullet? Sheesh. Something outta the hair bands of the 80s. He can have her. No longer my type.


----------



## Help239

So today one of our kids says they can hear mom and the OM at night. That's just GROSS. Turn on the radio or something. I feel so bad for our kids when they are with her. She treats them like bargaining chips and they are afraid to approach her because she will get upset. I need to get them into counseling quickly.


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## crisis1008

Help, it sounds like because your stbx is in a new relationship, she is still trying to maintain the look of what she thinks is fashionable to her new beau, and feel young again.

As far as her actions with the children goes, she is trying to win their support for her immoral and insensitive actions in the marriage. She is trying to make them feel for her, rather than you. I feel her guilt is what drives her behavior.

As far as the children hearing goes, I think you should have a talk with your stbx. I know this will be a hard one, but I am sure that even when the two of you were together you tried to be discreet about your bedtime habits. You did this because you were sheltering them from sex. She should be maintaining the same level of respect for her children now, as she did then. The importance of your children's well-being should not change simply because the two of you are not together any longer. If she is incapable of shutting her d**n mouth, then she should either wear a muzzle, or refrain from participating in bedtime habits unless the children are not home. You are absolutely right in thinking that it is gross for a child to hear this. 

As far as not attending dinner goes before the open house, I absolutely agree with you. The children should not be desensitized to the fact that what is happening is morally wrong. Somebody has to enstill in them the importance of marriage, and what a marriage is supposed to be. If you begin going to dinner, or things of the sort, with your wife and the OM, then you are showing them that her behavior in the marriage is okay. You are not even divorced yet and she is living with someone else. This is absolutely not right.

I have taken the time to read several of your posts, and just want you to know that I am impressed by the way that you have handled your situation. You have a great head on your shoulders, and your heart is in the right place, when considering your children.

Keep your head up.


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## turnera

Most definitely tell her that they can hear them. No matter what else is going on. They need to be shielded from that. Even SHE should be able to understand that.

Can you ask someone else in the family to tell her?


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## Help239

I will tell her today. Thanks for the responses. Even she can't be that cold hearted. At least I hope so for our children's sake.


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## Help239

So I dropped off her support check last night and pulled up to her and the OM frantically packing a Uhaul with his crap. I was laughing as I put the envelope in the mailbox.

I guess she either finally understands that she's hurting our kids with him living there or maybe she's just trying to ask for more money because he's moving out. Weird because she has lied since Jan about him not living there. Yeah, he gets mail there, has 2 trucks, a car, a mini-van and a bike parked there and also answers the phone - but doesn't live there.......riiight.

As I'm leaving he says "have a nice day"

It's 8pm Einstein.

Whatever the reason, my kids will benefit from the change. That's what's important here.


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## turnera

What happened?


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## Help239

It would appear the OM is moving his stuff out of her home.


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## turnera

I was just wondering if you had talked to her about it.


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## MEM2020

H,
I think this is the worst possible topic you could discuss with her. You will lose either way. If you seem sympathetic she may feel you wish to reconcile (which I hope is not the case). If you don't seem sympathetic she will feel like you are basking in her misery. Which is mean since you are fully aware that her life is not good and getting worse. 

If she raises this with you I think the only suitable response is:

I think we both have the same goal, which is for the kids to be in a healthy constructive environment whether they are with you or with me. 

If she wants to argue about that statement I would just end the call. 




Help239 said:


> It would appear the OM is moving his stuff out of her home.


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## turnera

IDK, I think it's a great opportunity for you to be caring and concerned for her.


----------



## crisis1008

Careful. She may come crawling back to you now out of co-dependency. I don't think you should seem concerned for her. Concerned for what? Her lack of caring for you and her derserved heartache due to her illicit affair? Kharma is a b*tch. If you really do want her back, then wait until she has dealt with realizing that the grass is not greener on the other side. Wait until she is truly remorseful for her actions toward you and the family you created together. When she has realized this and owned up to her actions, and you still want to reconcile, I think you should both attend marriage counseling. I am certain you will have anger in your heart, and there are reasons for her looking elsewhere. The both of you will need to deal with what has made the other unhappy. Remeber that your children have bee affected by this as well. You may want to think about family counseling.

I may even be going to far with my thoughts. You may not even want her back.

Or do you?


----------



## MEM2020

taking her back NOW would be the worst possible thing to do. Later on she would say "in a moment of weakness I went back to him - because I was upset and not thinking straight"

Bad bad bad situation. She needs to:
- grow up
- be a decent partner from a distance for a while - stop with the sadistic head games - telling you not to come pick up an ipod because they are having SEX
- Show some contrition 

Right now she is SO FAR away from being an acceptable partner and parent that it would be INSANE to reconcile with her





crisis1008 said:


> Careful. She may come crawling back to you now out of co-dependency. I don't think you should seem concerned for her. Concerned for what? Her lack of caring for you and her derserved heartache due to her illicit affair? Kharma is a b*tch. If you really do want her back, then wait until she has dealt with realizing that the grass is not greener on the other side. Wait until she is truly remorseful for her actions toward you and the family you created together. When she has realized this and owned up to her actions, and you still want to reconcile, I think you should both attend marriage counseling. I am certain you will have anger in your heart, and there are reasons for her looking elsewhere. The both of you will need to deal with what has made the other unhappy. Remeber that your children have bee affected by this as well. You may want to think about family counseling.
> 
> I may even be going to far with my thoughts. You may not even want her back.
> 
> Or do you?


----------



## turnera

Who said anything about reconciling?

I just said you could ask her what happened, the next time you have to be in proximity. Just like you would do with any acquaintance.


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## MEM2020

T,

This is a gender neutral comment - I would say this no matter whether the cheater was the W or the H. So here it goes. If the cheating spouse:
- Deliberately pushes the affair in the face of the betrayed spouse 
- Forces the BS to speak with the OM by having the OM answer the phone when the H calls to say good night to his children
- Forces the BS to read emails about how the W and OM are having sex RIGHT NOW and so the childs ipod cannot be picked up 
- She lied about him being a threat to her in court
- FCS her KIDS could hear her having sex with the OM

After all that - the worst thing in the world the BS can do is show concern for the wandering spouse (WS). Because that concern implies forgiveness for all the hateful stuff just done. And while I am totally in favor of forgiveness - the GUILTY PARTY HAS TO ASK FOR IT - THEY HAVE TO ASK. And she has never acknowledged how messed up her behavior was. That is a type of child abuse in my opinion. So - she simply needs to lick her wounds in private. She hasn't earned any compassion yet from anyone. 










turnera said:


> Who said anything about reconciling?
> 
> I just said you could ask her what happened, the next time you have to be in proximity. Just like you would do with any acquaintance.


----------



## turnera

I completely understand. But I am not talking about giving her anything, or even doing anything FOR her. Help has to go his own road, and he is hurting, and rightfully so. But I always urge people to take the high road, treat people as you want to be treated, and never burn bridges.

Simply asking her what happened out of courtesy does not show weakness, nor does it ask her back. It shows her - as in Plan A from marriagebuilders.com - that HE is the one with integrity. Gives her something to think about. And if it ever comes to pass that she has hit rock bottom, and is looking around, and sees him standing there, being the ultimate Help he has always been, it will hit her even harder what she gave up.


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## Help239

Wow, a lot has been posted since this morning. I appreciate everyone's comments. I will have to say at this point that I mostly agree with MEM. I have my reasons, but MEM touched on most of them already.

The irony is she has stated on several occassions that I am the one who needs to grow up and stop playing games. All the while she is acting inappropriately around the children and the one who is playing games. 

I simply want nothing to do with her. I do not want her back. However, she knows if she has an emotional crisis - like if her grandfather passes away - that I am here for her. I feel nothing for her but I would not turn her away if she ASKS for support.

I have signed our kids up for counseling. They need it. I should have done it earlier but I didn't know the extent of their mother's insensitivity.

T - I would ask but she would take it as a sign of weakness. This is because I have been practicing "no contact" with the exception of anything to do with the children.


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## turnera

Understood.


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## Help239

Had a court date today - another 1500 wasted in fees. The stb-x initially refused to take a vocational exam because I wanted to split the cost 50-50. She stated she would take it if I paid 100%. I agreed and my attorney set things in motion. Then about 2 weeks ago she said she wanted to go to court about it.

Bottom line is the judge made an order today for her to take the vocational exam and for the cost to be split 50-50. He was annoyed at the fact that she was wasting his time bringing this issue to court when I had already agreed to pay for the exam. So, that was a win for me but I'm still out of pocket for the attorney fees in prepping and coming to court.

She was not happy.


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## Help239

Our 9 year old ask me when I tucked her into bed if I would help her make strawberry crepes for mom in the morning. Sure thing I said. Apparently "mom" said she wanted them for breakfast. I used to make them for her every mothers day. She gets them from 9a-6p today.

But as I sit here at 1a mixing batter I'm saddened. I feel an immense sense of loss this mother's day. Not for my wife mind you, but for our children. It has to be hard for them to put on a happy face when they feel so conflicted inside about what she's doing. Part of me wonders why I'm mixing the batter - I wouldn't want to give anyone the wrong impression - but when all is said and done it's for the kids.

Still, I can't shake the feeling that she only asked them to make crepes so I'd end up making them. I guess it doesn't matter. Helping them out when they ask is what I need to do regardless of what my stb-x intended.

Mother's Day 2010 - and I thought I couldn't feel as bad as I did back in Thanksgiving 2009 when I was confronted with my wife's infidelity. I was wrong.


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## turnera

You're doing fine. The only thing I would add is to look for some books about kids, and how divorce etc. affects them. Often, they will become a mini-adult, trying to come up with ways to keep you two together, taking it on their shoulders. Don't forget to remind your daugther of potential outcomes, and how it will have nothing to do with what she does, so she won't go down that path. It sounds like that's where she's headed.


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## peacefully

Sorry you're going thru this Help...
It's a challenging time and a confusing situation. Lining up what's going on in your heart and what's going on in your mind is hard- for me it is anyway.
There is a real mourning process to go through, especially on special days, holidays etc.
I think that keeping up a routine, the "family" rituals is in one way good, but maybe it's time to think up some new rituals- ones for you and your kids for these days. 
Trying to match up the life before with life the way it is now, will only bring back memories- so make some new memories!


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## Help239

Thanks T - I always tell the kids their job is to be kids and do well in school and be safe. Our youngest daughter was really happy I had the crepes ready to go this morning.

Thanks P - I'm right there with you. My stb-x sent me a text thanking me for the crepes. I wanted so badly to reply and let her know that I did it for the kids - not for her. But I decided against it. No contact unless it's about the children. It's a sad day - 1st mothers day apart as a family.


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## finallyseewhy

You did the right thing making them and it probably made your daughter feel really great  My H got the kids a card for me and sent me a text this morning wishing me Happy Mothers day. Our oldest was excited to give me the card I broke down crying but made it look like a happy cry....it is the 1st holiday apart also.


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## Help239

Yes, she was happy I made them for her. She was stressed about how they were going to get her mother's breakfast completed because she didn't want her mom to be upset. I couldn't let that happen. I wanted them to have a good day (the kids).


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## MEM2020

Help,
You are very mature and controlled. This was perfect - you did the right thing for the kids and then you resisted the urge to poke at your wife. I think it was right to ignore her thank you and in fact to stick with the LC you have. She is an angry, immature, self centered, and mean spirited person. 



QUOTE=Help239;148016]Yes, she was happy I made them for her. She was stressed about how they were going to get her mother's breakfast completed because she didn't want her mom to be upset. I couldn't let that happen. I wanted them to have a good day (the kids).[/QUOTE]


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## Help239

Thanks MEM - I appreciate the feedback.


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## Help239

So she just up and forgot to call the kids to say goodnight yesterday. They were confused.....waited until 930p and are usually in bed by 830p. Must have been too busy.


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## Help239

Apparently the OM "moved out" because they had a fight. I guess the grass isn't greener. I can't believe our trial date is 3 to 4 months out. I just want this over and done with.


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## turnera

Expect a change of heart now...


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## Help239

Maybe but I'm not sure all is as it appears to be. This might just be her way of trying to get more support. She has shown no remorse for her actions and any attempt I made in the past to smooth things over (prior to her infidelity) has been presented by her in court as me "trying to keep her in the marriage". Therefore, I feel no reason to be receptive to any change of heart on her side as it could possibly just be another attempt to trap me in a situation she can manipulate and twist around for her own selfish needs.


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## Help239

My instincts were correct. I sent my stb-xw an email asking that the OM stop pretending to be her by using her phone and sending me text messages and email in an attempt to upset me. Guess who responded to the email? That's right, the OM. I replied with "I prefer no contact with you as my stb-xw and I can handle all family matters".

The guy went into a rant about my kids - like he knows them after 5 months. Really, do you believe I'm gonna take your word over my kids - EVER? Get real. He still "demands" respect and is missing the point - they'll never give him respect unless he earns it.


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## peacefully

Who is this guy?! I cannot believe his nerve!! Sending you messages and trying to upset you, why on earth would he want to do that?! He sounds nuts!!
He should NOT be talking to you about your children, that goes well above and beyond what is decent or acceptable behavior!

Have they broken up?


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## turnera

Help239 said:


> Maybe but I'm not sure all is as it appears to be. This might just be her way of trying to get more support. She has shown no remorse for her actions and any attempt I made in the past to smooth things over (prior to her infidelity) has been presented by her in court as me "trying to keep her in the marriage". Therefore, I feel no reason to be receptive to any change of heart on her side as it could possibly just be another attempt to trap me in a situation she can manipulate and twist around for her own selfish needs.


 Oh, that's not what I meant. I meant that, if he really is gone, she'll just turn around and put her sights back on you, as the only susceptible male in her life. She's gotta latch on SOMEONE to take care of her...might as well be you.

meh


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## peacefully

> she'll just turn around and put her sights back on you, as the only susceptible male in her life. She's gotta latch on SOMEONE to take care of her...might as well be you.


:iagree:

I have seen that happen in quite a few situations with different people...


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## Help239

He's just a simple guy - high school education I maybe. His rant was barely legible. Feel sorry for him as my stb-x has told our teenager she's thinking about dating again. He doesn't even know she's using him. Then again, he's using her so.......

He challenged me to take a lie detector test....wth? They are so muddled in who's saying what they miss the bigger picture - their actions are hurting the kids.


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## peacefully

Help, you are beyond gracious.

I would expect her to come sniffing around at some point... She might try to date, find out that it's more difficult than she imagined and then she will try to get back into a relationship with you.
I have heard of and seen so many women try do this (the kind of woman like your ex- unstable and disloyal types of women- the kind of woman who can't be alone). They say they'll repent and then they ultimately go back into their old behavior.

I don't think you would go back there, you seem to know better!


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## Help239

Thanks P. Nope, not gonna do it.

So her latest "in your face" tactic is asking for some items after coming onto my property to take it while I was out of town. She also emailed me with a new email address - her old one was made up of the first letter from every family members first names - the new one was the same except my letter is missing.

I sent her a reply asking her not to come onto the property to look for or grab items while I'm away. I also set the items she wanted on the front porch and she's picking them up today.

It's her bike and a bike rack - she's taking the kids riding at the beach today. Again, doing so for the children so they can have fun and be safe with her today.

The nerve - trespassing and planning on stealing property. And yes, the kids were with her and she even asked our oldest to scale the locked fence. When she couldn't find the items her mother scaled the fence. Way to set an example.


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## Help239

Our son asked me to drop off his thermos for school when I called to say goodnight yesterday. Met the kids at the gate this morning. As I gave them kisses and wished them a good day they said they didn't have time for breakfast and were hungry. Geez - why won't she get her head out of the gutter and take care of the kids?


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## turnera

Are you documenting each and every one of these events in a hardbound journal? You may need it some day to wrest custody from her.


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## Help239

I would only do so to protect the kids. Right now I just email her and she takes things personally. She accuses me of trying to make her look like a bad mother. I have never said that. I am simply communicating what the children say and she ignores.


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## Help239

So we have a "first right of refusal" stipulated in our child custody agreement but she refuses to abide by it. This will be the 2nd time I'm aware of in the last month where she will be away from our children for more than 5 hours and will not give me the courtesy of being able to watch them. Anything not work related and over 4 hours qualifies. So frustrating. 

In the end she is violating another court order and this will work against her at trial. But that's not the point. The point is she does this just to be hurtful and if she would only put the children first she would answer my emails asking her to let me watch them while she is out.

Also, another topic but it's been on my mind ..... I have not slept in our room since Dec. I did take the old sheets off (for obvious reasons) and purchased new sheets. Our younger kids usually want me to "sleepover" in their room. However, it's time to take back the room and stop letting her last actions affect me. I have planned on refinishing the furniture by sanding and staining it a different color. That and the new sheets will go a long way in helping me mentally to reclaim the room. I might even paint the walls too. What do you all think?


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## turnera

Excellent idea. I've seen people just completely throw away the whole bedroom set, so I think your plan is a much better one - full of your control over your life!

btw, please keep a journal of all the infractions. Judges really do want to see a timeline of them to see how they add up.


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## Help239

I will - thx T.

stbxw sent me an email today - it's our 15th 1st date anniversary. Weird how indifferent I was. I had forgotten. Yet she obviously hasn't.

So why is it that I think less and less about our history and she seems to be holding onto it? Ironically at the same time she continues to tear down everything that history represents while I try to save what matters - the children.

I replied - I don't buy it and won't until her actions match her words. Just days ago she allowed the OM to impersonate her multiple times using her email. He wants to be a man and challenge me. What are we in high school? For that matter, what kind of a parent allows another adult to "demand" respect from their children?


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## Help239

"We decided to break up for the good of the kids but we were so miserable apart after almost a week that we decided to get back together". In and of itself not a bad sentence. However, when you consider this statement was made to our 13 year old daughter when she asked her mother why the OM was hanging around again......

I bet this made our daughter feel unloved. At the very least it made it crystal clear to her that her mother places her own needs above those of her children. Doesn't my stbxw understand that our 13 year old IS a child? Doesn't she realize what she just said?


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## turnera

Are you having LOTS of conversations with your daughter?

I found that going for walks with my daughter made a HUGE difference in how we got along. Walking...you aren't facing each other, so it's not a confrontation, a judgment, an anything...just walking for a common purpose - to walk. If you have a dog to walk, so much the better.

I found that once we did start walking once a week, she started unloading all her feelings to me during the walks. I also had an opportunity to bring up 'what ifs' with her. Like "I have this coworker, whose marriage is breaking up, and they have a 10 year old daughter. What would you tell their daughter if you had a chance?"

Stuff like that. 

Get her talking.


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## Help239

Hey T - we talk when she wants to. I do not want to pressure her and she knows there are many people out there who love her and she can trust if she feels she cannot talk to me about it.

Well, today is our 14th anniv. No contact. It's surreal. Big 3k sq ft empty house, no kids ..... did I wake up in the twilight zone? Nope, this is real life.

A year ago I would have never imagined we would be here today. I am stronger and wiser true. However, I am also less trusting and more guarded. 

Looks like this process will last into the Fall. I just wish she would walk and stop dragging this out. The kids do not deserve this.

Sorry for the vent, it's one of those days.


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## Deejo

You need a minimum of four complete paragraphs to qualify as venting. 1/2 a page equals a rant.

You don't need to apologize for posting. Being guarded at this point in time serves your interests - that isn't a bad thing. Being guarded is borne out of fear of being harmed, eventually you won't need it. It doesn't diminish you. If anything, being more cautious with whom gets the best of you in the future will only make the pay-off all the sweeter.

It's ok to remember what was. I still do. But you are fully aware of where you are now. There is almost no way around looking at that contrast and being sad, angry or disappointed.


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## Help239

thanks Deejo.

Kids are back home with me this week. I missed them so much. Breaks my heart when they express what they go thru when they are with their mother. I just listen, and then listen some more.

Of course when I offer up advice to my stb-xw she sees it as an attack and accuses me of filling their heads with negative thoughts and opinions of her.

It's been 8 months......trial won't be for another 3-4 months. This is taking forever.


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## Help239

It's been a few weeks now and out of the blue my stb-xw calls me to ask if she can have one of the printers. What? Talk about random. I asked her why she couldn't go get one. Money. Well, maybe someone should stop partying at concerts and spending support $$ on wants vs. needs.

I said no.


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## turnera

Man, those consequences suck, don't they?


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## Help239

Yes, they do. And there are more to come.


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## Brewster 59

Wow, what an incrediable story yours is, I actually read the whole thread in one setting and it kinda pulled me out of my pity party. You sir are an incrediable man. You must keep posting the outcome of this but really I know the Lord will be with you and will bless your faithfulness. You certainly went through many trials but I know life will be blessed for you and your children.


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## Help239

I pray you are right Brewster. Thank you for your kind words. 

Last week I was invited to dinner after an awards ceremony for our daughter (My stb-xw had the children). I asked her if she wanted me to attend and she replied "why wouldn't I dad?" I told her it might be awkward and I didn't want her and her siblings to feel confused. She said it was fine so I went (1st meal together as a "family" since separation). At least the stb-xw had enough sense to leave the OM out of it.

Unfortunately the stb-xw used the dinner to try to act like everything was fine and that I was ok with what she is doing. I made it clear I went for the kids and did not want to pretend that the situation is ok. I do not want our children growing up thinking this is how to behave in a marriage.

She somehow got onto the subject of their births and made a comment about how "your Dad cried at each of your births". I had to excuse myself from the table. Thinking about each of those moments in time really got to me. For the rest of the evening I made no eye contact and spoke very little to her. I just spent time with the kids. 

I have to admit I was feeling pretty down a few days afterwards. I also found out she was upset I did not want to look or talk with her. I really don't know what she expects from me these days. She is all over the map and I have very little patience for her games.


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## MEM2020

Refusing to gift the laster printer - Completely appropriate boundary. She has been emotionally abusive - and I don't use that term lightly. Pushing the OM in your face has been pure emotional vandalism. It gains her nothing and is an awful thing to do to anyone, much less someone who has given you so much love. I would have been stunned if you had given it to her. In a way you would have been signalling her behavior up until now has been ok. 

Minimizing interaction at dinner - Bravo. At some level she still wants to know you are her safety net/plan B if it turns out she has to give up too many concerts to pay for her items she actually needs. It upsets her that despite her forcing you to deal with the OM, that you still can't love her, be nice to her. 

Guess what - actions have consequences. Kick someone in the balls enough times - just to try to get them to react and you eventually get a reaction. Indifference. 

The saddest thing about this is that she is not calibrated to "reasonable reactions". Meaning she is somehow expecting you will take all the abuse without it changing your feelings about her. 

Were you too nice to her during the marriage? If so, remember that in your next relationship. Unconditional love often brings out the worst in people. 






Help239 said:


> I pray you are right Brewster. Thank you for your kind words.
> 
> Last week I was invited to dinner after an awards ceremony for our daughter (My stb-xw had the children). I asked her if she wanted me to attend and she replied "why wouldn't I dad?" I told her it might be awkward and I didn't want her and her siblings to feel confused. She said it was fine so I went (1st meal together as a "family" since separation). At least the stb-xw had enough sense to leave the OM out of it.
> 
> Unfortunately the stb-xw used the dinner to try to act like everything was fine and that I was ok with what she is doing. I made it clear I went for the kids and did not want to pretend that the situation is ok. I do not want our children growing up thinking this is how to behave in a marriage.
> 
> She somehow got onto the subject of their births and made a comment about how "your Dad cried at each of your births". I had to excuse myself from the table. Thinking about each of those moments in time really got to me. For the rest of the evening I made no eye contact and spoke very little to her. I just spent time with the kids.
> 
> I have to admit I was feeling pretty down a few days afterwards. I also found out she was upset I did not want to look or talk with her. I really don't know what she expects from me these days. She is all over the map and I have very little patience for her games.


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## Brewster 59

Well you have come very far in your journey but it seems the x still has some hot buttons she can push. You must know your x is all about her and you must come to the point of indifference when it concerns her games. Unfortunatley using the kids to hurt you is fair game in her book. 

Your x will get what she deserves and if what you have written is true so will you and what I mean is you are way to good for the person your X has become. 

It seems any time your x has a chance to take a cheap shot she will take it so dont give her any chances. Maybe talk to a councilor of how to tell the kids and get their input, go to important events that concerns your kids that your x will be at but dont sit with her. Keep away from this toxic x at all costs and keep your focus on God and your kids.

Your Xs reign of terror is comming to an end and when it does you will heal and I know there are a lot of women that would love a man like you.


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## Help239

MEM - Yes, I was nice. Some of my friends say I was too nice. I don't know. I will learn from this experience that's for sure. I wasn't a doormat, just very giving to who I thought was my partner for life.

I was at Sam's club last night and they had a printer for $40. She can afford that. Minus the trips to Vegas and concerts she's been going to, plus the partying, etc.

Today was a graduation ceremony for one of our daughters. She pulled up late and almost didn't get a seat. I chose an aisle seat so I could take pics. She ended up one row away from me and made it a point to walk DOWN my aisle, stop in front of me and say "Hi". 

She goes out of her way to push my buttons. Normally that interaction would be welcome but I could sense her real purpose. I don't know how to explain it, but you can't be with someone for 15 years and not know what they really mean by their actions and body language.

In any case, I enjoyed the ceremony and our daughter wanted to go out to dinner tonight so I asked if she wanted to invite her mom. I sent out the invite and made sure she understood it was for HER only. 

I just realized she has always accused me of being the one who causes her emotional harm. Now I see clearly it was the other way around. Her pattern is the same - blames me for things she is perpetuating......emotional abuse, adultery, etc.

Seeing her today arrive late, looking like she did (not good) I also realized I no longer have ANY feelings towards her. She is letting herself go, after a brief period of working out madly and losing weight last year. She has another man to be dependent on so she doesn't need to worry about it anymore I guess. She was so much better than this. Sad really.

I ran a 10k this month. First one ever - even though I've been a runner in HS and college. Felt great. I look forward to the day I sign the papers and can start looking for someone to stand beside, care for, and love again.


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## Brewster 59

Right now your kids are your lifes purpose, God is your source of strength. I dont know if you have done this or not but you should go through this thread and be so proud of the growth you have made since this thread was started. For me it makes me believe there is light at the end of the tunnel even though all I see right now is darkness. You have truely become a better man through all these trials.


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## Help239

Brewster, that is a great suggestion and I will do it soon. Thanks.


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## CodeNameBob

Help, 

I have spent the last two days at the office reading you entire ordeal, I am so sorry that you or anyone would ever have to go through the things that you have with the SBTX. That be being said, I feel that you are truly an amazing man, human being, and father. Your children are truly blessed to have you in the their lives, and you STBX is as well, even though she doesn't know it. A lesser man would have found ways to destroy her, emotionally, financially, or spiritually, and rightfully so, yet you took the high rode. She has no idea how lucky she has been.

You are going to be so much better off once this thing is over!

Lastly, you have given men like me, just starting the journey of divorce, betrayel, and healing hope and a rode map. Your level of class through this amazing story astounds me as well as the support given to you by SS, Peaceful, to name a few.

I pray that I can find the stregnth to be half the man you are in my own divorce, thank for sharing you story.

Also, I am guessing we are close in age, me 36, but as stated before, you class and growth have given the wisdom of a person many years your Senior.

God Bless.

CodeName


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## Help239

CodeName -

Thanks for your kind words. I am again in an empty house as the kids will be spending the next 12 days at their mothers house. I plan on spending the weekend in the company of family and friends who have supported me throughout this ordeal.

I invited the stb-xw to graduation dinner last night at the request of our daughter. She sat alone on the other side of the table so I asked our grad to go sit by her because she invited her. At some point the stb-xw decided to speak to her about the OM. Immediately our daughter moved back to the seat next to me and gave me a hug. I knew why but she didn't have to. She was worried about me. Ironically I was more concerned about her state of mind.

So, to summarize......stb-xw at dinner :
- a mistake?
- clueless
- selfish
- and many more words I could use but come on - how can you be invited to dinner and speak such crap? We're there to celebrate our daughters accomplishment. Who gives a darn about the OM?


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## turnera

In her mind, the OM is all she has left. He is the ONLY reason she is excommunicated from her life. He is ALL she has left. She desperately wants her family and friends to nudge themselves back over to her side of the bench, and be OK with her and the OM. But it's not happening. And so her exposure continues to deteriorate her life.


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## MEM2020

The bond you have with your children reflects your character. Some women is currently traversing a path through space time utterly clueless that she will shortly meet an incredible man who will change her life. 

I hope when you meet that woman - you come back and post about it. 

In the meantime I am glad that you have lowered your expectations of your stbxw close to zero. 




Help239 said:


> CodeName -
> 
> Thanks for your kind words. I am again in an empty house as the kids will be spending the next 12 days at their mothers house. I plan on spending the weekend in the company of family and friends who have supported me throughout this ordeal.
> 
> I invited the stb-xw to graduation dinner last night at the request of our daughter. She sat alone on the other side of the table so I asked our grad to go sit by her because she invited her. At some point the stb-xw decided to speak to her about the OM. Immediately our daughter moved back to the seat next to me and gave me a hug. I knew why but she didn't have to. She was worried about me. Ironically I was more concerned about her state of mind.
> 
> So, to summarize......stb-xw at dinner :
> - a mistake?
> - clueless
> - selfish
> - and many more words I could use but come on - how can you be invited to dinner and speak such crap? We're there to celebrate our daughters accomplishment. Who gives a darn about the OM?


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## Help239

turnera - I can see that but she behaves as if everything is awesome and going her way. I know it's most likely a front but I wonder if she truly is delusional.

MEM - yep, almost expect 0/nada from my stb-xw. I pray I meet someone who can show affection for I have not received any in true affection on many years. I'm not talking about sex. I'm speaking of simply holding hands, a look, a honest to goodness hug that isn't mechanical.


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## turnera

Delusional? Pretty much right in line with a wayward. I've seen them referred to as aliens who inhabit your spouse's body. Or else a crack addict, who can think of nothing else in life except scoring their next fix (spending time with their AP) - they'll give up their way of life, their family, their parents, best friends, job, even money...just to get to keep getting that high they feel when around him. The problem is that high is that chemical high you feel when you're dating, which has been proven to go away within 2 or 3 years. What happens then? They wake up, as if after an all-nighter, look around, see who they 'spent the night with,' and are horrified at what they did. 

Stopping the affair through exposure can shorten that cycle by putting pressure on it and making it not so fun. Not always, but often. The question is, can you - or will you want to - hold off long enough to wait it out, and not fall out of love?


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## Brewster 59

Well I think divorce is a emotional roller coaster ride for all for all who go through it, especially for the respondant, It is a process of one step at a time and sometimes due to emotinal pain we take steps backwards. I really think you should be working towards total indeferrence when it come to the X. You have a good job, a great relationship with your kids, who cares what the X is doing or saying, Its time to detatch and move on, I think in time you will find much better mate than what this demon has put you through!


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## Brewster 59

turnera said:


> Delusional? Pretty much right in line with a wayward. I've seen them referred to as aliens who inhabit your spouse's body. Or else a crack addict, who can think of nothing else in life except scoring their next fix (spending time with their AP) - they'll give up their way of life, their family, their parents, best friends, job, even money...just to get to keep getting that high they feel when around him. The problem is that high is that chemical high you feel when you're dating, which has been proven to go away within 2 or 3 years. What happens then? They wake up, as if after an all-nighter, look around, see who they 'spent the night with,' and are horrified at what they did.
> 
> Stopping the affair through exposure can shorten that cycle by putting pressure on it and making it not so fun. Not always, but often. The question is, can you - or will you want to - hold off long enough to wait it out, and not fall out of love?


So have you read this thread? I personally could'nt imagine him going back to her after the horrible things she has done to him. How would he ever be able to trust her? If he did try to forgive her and went back to her, how would he kep from getting angry with the way she treated him?


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## turnera

It doesn't matter what WE would do. What matters is what HE wants. If he wants her, for whatever reason, stopping the affair is step #1.

fwiw, I have seen dozens of betrayed spouses accept their wayward back, and be able to move forward. Most of them go on to have better marriages than before, because they no longer take anything for granted, and because they now actively WORK on the marriage to keep it fresh and fulfilling. 

But we each have our own pain threshhold. It's no shame to give up on a cheating spouse. Neither is it shameful to take one back.


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## Brewster 59

turnera said:


> It doesn't matter what WE would do. What matters is what HE wants. If he wants her, for whatever reason, stopping the affair is step #1.
> 
> fwiw, I have seen dozens of betrayed spouses accept their wayward back, and be able to move forward. Most of them go on to have better marriages than before, because they no longer take anything for granted, and because they now actively WORK on the marriage to keep it fresh and fulfilling.
> 
> But we each have our own pain threshhold. It's no shame to give up on a cheating spouse. Neither is it shameful to take one back.


Very true, thank-you for your perspective and insight.


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## MEM2020

There are different reasons people start affairs. One is to get a feeling of being in love, being loved that is no longer present in the marriage. 

Another is to use the affair to inflict as MUCH PAIN AS POSSIBLE on their partner. 

A healthy person may have an affair, but they do not use the affair as a form of emotional napalm to burn their spouse as badly as possible. For whatever reason Helps W felt a prolonged need to do just that. It is one thing to forgive an affair. Entirely different matter to signal to your children that this type of interaction is acceptable between adults. 

Pretty sure Help knows that......



turnera said:


> It doesn't matter what WE would do. What matters is what HE wants. If he wants her, for whatever reason, stopping the affair is step #1.
> 
> fwiw, I have seen dozens of betrayed spouses accept their wayward back, and be able to move forward. Most of them go on to have better marriages than before, because they no longer take anything for granted, and because they now actively WORK on the marriage to keep it fresh and fulfilling.
> 
> But we each have our own pain threshhold. It's no shame to give up on a cheating spouse. Neither is it shameful to take one back.


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## Brewster 59

MEM11363 said:


> There are different reasons people start affairs. One is to get a feeling of being in love, being loved that is no longer present in the marriage.
> 
> Another is to use the affair to inflict as MUCH PAIN AS POSSIBLE on their partner.
> 
> A healthy person may have an affair, but they do not use the affair as a form of emotional napalm to burn their spouse as badly as possible. For whatever reason Helps W felt a prolonged need to do just that. It is one thing to forgive an affair. Entirely different matter to signal to your children that this type of interaction is acceptable between adults.
> 
> Pretty sure Help knows that......


Well for whatever reason helps w will try to find anything she can to try and hurt him. Maybe I was wrong calling her a demon but wow what kind of person will use the kids to hurt the X, what kind of mom has sex where the kids can hear the goins on. Help is an amazing guy and an inspiration to those who read his story. I can hardly wait for the day Helps divorce is final and he gets to the point where nothing his W does can hurt him. Hopefully Helps W will get to the point she no longer has the need to punish him and she will become a good mother again and Help and his wife can co parent amiciably.


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## Help239

I appreciate all of your comments and can honestly say I have felt the way each of you have stated at one time or another. All I can say is it is getting harder for her to affect me. Tonight she took the phone from our son while we were saying goodnight to take another call. Yep, the OM. I called back later to speak to our daughters and they told me what happened. Sure I was upset for about 2 minutes but in the end all I know is I was able to say goodnight to the kids. I CHOOSE not to allow her actions to get to me.

However, I worry about why it's harder for her to get to me. Am I putting up walls? Will those walls keep other women out? Am I broken or just reserved? Sometimes I think I'm perpetuating the situation when I continue to be indifferent towards her. Then I remember all she's done to us and the kids and I don't feel guilty anymore. 

Until she takes responsibility for what she's done I will not consider repairing the communication between us. An email or text saying "sorry" is not even close. For all I know she's not even the one who's behind the message.

....a little low tonight (4th night without the kids) but I will recover. You all keep me strong. Thanks for the posts.


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## Brewster 59

walls are built for security and preservation after the war is over you will heal. I know if I was you I would go to a buisness only communication as in kids only and other than that no contact. Every time that woman has the chance she trys to step on you.


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## turnera

Have you read up on Plan B at marriagebuilders? It sounds like you are about at that point. It is for self-preservation, so that you don't go crazy watching her cheat, and so you don't completely lose all your love for her as you watch her act like a biotch.


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## Deejo

I'm all for saving a marriage - but there is nothing here to save. There is actually less than nothing.

We can psycho-spin this forever. Relationships don't get much more dysfunctional than this.

ANYONE in their right mind can see that Help's stbx is damaged, selfish, and vindictive. Their relationship is radioactive.
This passed the horizon line of 'love the person, hate the behavior' a long time ago.

At this point, I actually believe her behavior will deteriorate MORE once the divorce is complete.

This harpy fully believed that she would get the house, full custody of the kids and that Help would foot the entire bill. None of that has happened which has only fueled her resentment of him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Brewster 59

I hope D is wrong about her getting worse after the divorce but Help you should start documenting anything she does bad with the kids an get wits if possible in case you have to pursue full cuistody.


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## Help239

We shall see. Until the divorce is finalized I will continue with no contact and only exchange communication in regards to our children.

I have invited a few friends and family over for a BBQ on Sunday. First time in a year. If I recall last 4th of July is where she again expressed her displeasure of people coming to "her house". "Why can't we have it at the park?"...... because it's my house too. I can't believe I put up with that attitude for so many years.


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## CodeNameBob

Love can make you turn a blind eye to a great many things. I bet you will find this will be one of the best 4th weekends, you, your kids, friends, and family will have had in a long time now that you don't have her negative energy to ruin it. Have a great weekend.


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## AFEH

Hi Help239,
I’ve read the whole thread, exceptionally enlightening for me. Not only your own writing but also the responses from others. For me it’s demonstrated just how deep and humanistic people are.

What I’ve read is an understandably “reactive” story, like you’ve been fighting fires for a long while, while at the same time doing what’s right by your children. It is exceptionally admirable.

I was wondering if you’ve had time or the inclination to think of and ponder about your future. What do you see say in the next 12 months and the next five years? What shape does your life take?

What is your dream, what is your paradise? I write this to be thought provoking for you. No worries if you think it crazy or if you’ve no time to respond.

Bob


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## Help239

Code - unfortunately the stb-x chose this weekend for her vacation time with our children so I do not have them until Monday. She took them to a concert in Northern Cal. I called as I usually do around 8p to say goodnight and no answer. Then I get a text from one of our daughters :

"I hate this vacation, I want to be with you. Why don't I have a choice anymore?"
-- What's wrong? I called 3x earlier to say goodnight.
"My phone was off and mom said she got no calls"
-- I called twice at 8 and again at 830. I also sent two text messages. Why are you upset hon?
"I feel I am not allowed to make any choices"
-- You always have a choice sweetie.
"I wish you were here"
-- I wish I was too.

At this point I get no replies and instead my stb-xw texts me saying she took our daughters phone away so she will go to bed. She just keeps digging a hole.......

AFEH - thank you for your kind words. Yes, I have been fighting fires for a long time. I will continue to do so for the safety and sanity of our children.

My future? To be there for my kids. They need some form of stability in all of this chaos. 

If you are referring to my personal life, I have given that some thought. When my life fell apart last October I couldn't even breathe for months. It felt like someone was sitting on my chest. Eventually that subsided and I decided to start working towards a goal - a 10k. I started a gym membership and ran the 10k on 6-12. Mission accomplished. 

I honestly thought I would be divorced by now but my stb-xw is delaying. I have thought about dating but have not done so. I still feel like I need to honor my vows. Some of you must think I'm crazy. However, I don't believe my sb-xw's behavior should impact my morals. Just because she decided to break her vow doesn't mean I should break mine. Adultery is a valid reason to divorce my spouse in the eyes of God......but that doesn't mean I should sin before my divorce is final.

12 months from now? I hope the divorce is final and that I have majority custody of our kids. This will be at their request. I have done nothing to persuade them to change the current 50/50 setup. If there is another woman in the picture, chances are she will not have met my children yet. I have made it clear that I will not force a new adult into their home or lives. 

5 years from now? My hope is that my kids will have 2 attentive parents to love and support them. Our oldest daughter will be in college. I want her to get there in good spirits and with no regrets.


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## turnera

> "I feel I am not allowed to make any choices"
> -- You always have a choice sweetie.


Help, I just want to point out that this is not entirely accurate, and may be causing some amount of stress to your daughter. Kids DON'T always have a choice, and if you tell her that, she will believe you, and will start a power struggle with your wife, which will just end in more strife. I think a better response might have been "I know it seems that way, and sometimes we end up being in situations we don't enjoy. But she's still your mother, and you still owe her respect, ok? We'll be together soon."

JMHO


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## Help239

If you are referring to who she is staying with I agree. However the "choice" she is referring to was due to a disagreement she had with a sister while mom was minding someone else. As an individual she will always have a choice about how she reacts to her siblings and her surroundings. She didn't feel like she had any "choice" because when the argument was discovered by their mother she promptly shut them down with even discussing what had happened so she could get back to whatever she was doing.


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## turnera

I thought you meant about who she was staying with.


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## Help239

Yesterday I found out my stb-xw is REQUIRING our 14 year old to add her as a friend on facebook.....oh, and also the OM. Excuse me? If the purpose of adding you is to monitor her usage, why does she need to add the OM? As a matter of fact, she said "no" when our daughter asked to create a FB account months ago. I approved it and monitor it. No need to add the OM or the stb-xw. Seriously.


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## Brewster 59

Easy situation to remedy, next time you have the child create a new account using an avatar, she can use that account for things OM and stbxw dont need to know and the other account for playing farm build and stuff she doesnt care if they see.


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## MEM2020

Very good advice. 

It is amazing that the stbxw is trying to force a level of transparency with the OM. This is VERY inappropriate but it is not possible to tell if she is doing it because she is disturbed or simply to try to make Help angry. Either way if the OM had a brain and a spine he would want NO PART OF THIS. 



Brewster 59 said:


> Easy situation to remedy, next time you have the child create a new account using an avatar, she can use that account for things OM and stbxw dont need to know and the other account for playing farm build and stuff she doesnt care if they see.


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## Brewster 59

Well the OM is a punk, he has texted help pretending to be stbxw among other things. I actually commend help for not pounding that guy which is probably a good thing as it would make thing worse. As a contractor I pound things for a living like nails but I would love to pound that guy into the ground. Hey never mind me Im being like deejo and venting a little anger thats all.


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## Help239

The OM noticed my daughter online last week and sent her a chat - "why are you online?". She was like "none of your business" but did not respond. Look who's trying to live vicariously through my kids. The OM has never had any kids of his own in his last 2 marriages although his first wife did cheat on him and have a baby with the OM. He has no idea how to be a father to my kids.


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## strawberry

MEM11363 said:


> Very good advice.
> 
> Either way if the OM had a brain and a spine he would want NO PART OF THIS.



of coz he would, Help is paying all the bills. (if i remember correctly from previous reading). he got a sugar daddy. lol


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## turnera

Help239 said:


> The OM noticed my daughter online last week and sent her a chat - "why are you online?". She was like "none of your business" but did not respond. Look who's trying to live vicariously through my kids. The OM has never had any kids of his own in his last 2 marriages although his first wife did cheat on him and have a baby with the OM. He has no idea how to be a father to my kids.


Well, you know I am blunt and stubborn. My advice to you is to advise your daughter to _go ahead_ and tell him 'none of your business.' 

In HER life - the life she SHOULD be having - he is nothing more than some creepy adult trying to befriend a child. In fact, she should report him. AND defriend him.

Making your daughter be friends with this man is messing her up for life, Help. Trust me. BTDT. Protect her by telling her she does NOT have to deal with him.

And if your wife tries to take you to court or something, just imagine how that would go down to a judge:

Her:"My daughter won't friend my boyfriend on FB and my husband made her take him off her friends list."

Judge: "Why in the world should your CHILD have to friend your BOYFRIEND when you are married?"


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## Help239

She defriended him after I told her it was her choice who she has as friends on FB.

Today is my 15th wedding aniversary. Sad day indeed. The kids go to their mom today.


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## Help239

Kids were picked up as scheduled. Oldest didn't want to go but I asked her to give her mom another chance. Stb-xw says "Happy Anniversary" when she gets out of the car. Last year I would have read into this. 9 months after this whole debacle started I did not respond nor react to it. Who is she kidding?


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## CodeNameBob

Herself, cheaters are delusional idoits! Sorry for the bitterness, but who do these people think they are, good people? They once were, yet they have turned into complete stangers, aliens. If we become cheats, will they have some honor then? Honor amongst thieves, crack heads don't rob other crack heads! So in the mind of a cheater, screwed up STBX, you need to be an A** to get some respect? Sorry for hijacking, ranting, and bitterness, but my SBTX showed me a new low today.

You have shown nothing but class through your ordeal, thank you, it has given me a rod map, rather brings me back from the madness.

Have a great weekend.


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## Uptown

Help239 said:


> Today is my 15th wedding anniversary.


Help, as with your W, mine left me at the end of our living together for nearly 15 years. Your W is so extremely vindictive, impulsive, selfish, and untrusting that she must be dysfunctional, as Deejo says in a 6/29 post. Indeed, those behavioral traits remind me so much of my exW, who suffers from BPD (borderline personality disorder). Meanness and vindictiveness are a hallmark of BPDers because they do black-white thinking, where they perceive of people as being all good or all bad. 

Moreover, they can flip from one perception to the other in 15 seconds, with that flip being triggered by some innocuous comment or action you do. This is why BPDers typically run through a lot of different doctors or lawyers (as your W did when firing the first two lawyers). They adore the professional right up to the moment that some innocent comment triggers their anger -- and then they hate the guy. This also explains why BPDers typically do not have long-term close friends.

Because BPDers are unable to trust and are very fearful of abandonment, they become jealous of your friends and family members. My exW -- like yours -- would only rarely visit my family members. She therefore tried to isolate me from them by becoming greatly offended by innocent remarks and then insisting that I stand with her and against my own family. Like you, I refused to do so. I also refused to isolate my adult foster son, whom she hated. 

Moreover, every week she was accusing me of lying to her -- as your W does. When I would ask for specific examples of a lie should could prove, she would refer to something that happened ten years earlier. She nonetheless was convinced I was lying every week or two. The reason was partly her inability to trust and partly her inability to control her emotions. Her feelings therefore became so intense that, to her, they constituted facts and reality.

With a BPDer spouse, the first six months are pure heaven because the BPDer is so infatuated that nothing said by the partner can trigger her rage. After that honeymoon wears off, however, she will become irritable. And, at some point, a BPDer will stop flipping between black and white and will permanently split you as being black.

A therapist, who claims to have treated many BPD-type relationships, said online that they typically last either 18 months or 15 years. They last 18 months, he said, when the nonBPD partner has strong personal boundaries. At the end of the six month honeymoon, the partner will spend up to a year trying to restore the conditions of the honeymoon. Then he bails.

The relationships tend to last 15 years, the T explained, when the partner has low personal boundaries. Such a person, he said, will never leave the BPDer because he is determined to take care of her. What happens is that the BPDer's fear of abandonment grows worse as she ages and, more important, she grows increasingly resentful of his inability to make her happy or fix her. And, when a BPDer decides to leave, she usually does so after finding another man (as your W did) because BPDers do not like to be alone. Also, the breakups are always very nasty and mean. 

In my case, my exW had me arrested on a bogus charge and thrown into jail -- so she could secure a restraining order against me that prevented me from returning to my own home for 18 months (which is how long it takes to get a divorce finalized here). And, of course, her hateful lies cost me the loss of five step kids and five grand kids. Like I said, extreme vindictiveness is a hallmark of BPD. Because BPDers think of themselves as perpetual victims, they have to have someone around them -- a perpetrator (e.g., you and me) -- whom they can blame for every misfortune.

Does this imply, then, that your W has strong BPD traits? No. For one thing, you make no mention of these traits appearing earlier than 9 months ago. If she is a BPDer, you would have seen such traits appearing throughout most of your relationship. For another thing, a person must exhibit at least 5 of the 9 BPD traits for a strong pattern of BPD to occur. Yet, if these traits did appear much earlier in your marriage, and if they do sound familiar, I would be glad to discuss them with you and share more of my experiences.


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## Help239

Uptown, thanks for your insight. I did not air any dirty laundry because I didn't feel the need to demean my stb-xw or reveal any of her issues from back when I first met her.

Honestly, she was diagnosed by her therapist with BPD - bi-polar disorder a few years before we were married. She was always either extremely happy or extremely depressed and could turn on a dime. Our oldest daughter has mentioned this to me on several occassions since her mother moved out. I just told her that her mom is going thru a lot right now and not to hold it against her. I already know what she is talking about because I have experienced it for over 14 years but that doesn't mean I should throw her mom under the bus - because she will always be her mom.

Anyways, feel free to share your thoughts even though BPD stand for something else in your ex's case. Your insight brought me back to reality this morning as I was feeling a bit down the day after our 15th year anniversary. She has the kids this week and I am alone in our home. Tough times but things will get better....

"But down the road the sun is shining 
In every cloud there's a silver lining 
Just keep holding on (just keep holding on) 
And every heartache makes you stronger 
But it won't be much longer 
You'll find love, you'll find peace 
And the you you're meant to be 
I know right now that's not the way you feel 
But one day you will"
- Lady Antebellum


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## Uptown

Help239 said:


> She was diagnosed by her therapist with BPD - bi-polar disorder a few years before we were married. She was always either extremely happy or extremely depressed and could turn on a dime.


Help, studies indicate that up to 30% of BPDers also have bipolar disorder. I'm familiar with both because my exW has BPD and my foster son has bipolar. Your W's ability to "turn on a dime" is the BPD part because it causes enormous anger (held since childhood) to be "event triggered" by innocuous things you say or do. This is why the most popular BPD book (targeted to the nonBPD spouses) is titled "Stop Walking on Eggshells." 

In contrast, the bipolar disorder creates gradual slow changes in body chemistry. It therefore can be treated with a pill and typically produces much slower changes in mood. I describe four differences between BPD and bipolar mood changes at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/anxiety-depression-relationships/13383-bi-polar-wife.html .


> We arrived at this point in time because she has lost her trust in me.


No, no. She had little or no trust to lose. BPDers typically sustained a trauma in early childhood that destroyed their ability to trust and nearly destroyed their self image. To survive that trauma, they held onto the emotional defenses of a young child -- so fiercely that they have never let them go. They therefore are stunted, frozen, in their emotional development. This is why your W is stuck with having to rely on the emotional defenses of a four year old (e.g., black-white thinking, splitting, magical thinking, and projection).

That trauma also left her with an inability to properly regulate her emotions, resulting in wide swings of very intense feelings. She therefore does not know today what she will want (i.e., will be feeling like) a week from now. This, and the lack of a stable sense of self, is why she does not trust herself. Significantly, until she can learn to trust herself, she can never trust you. So please do not beat yourself up over the fact that she does not trust you. Absent years of therapy, she is incapable of doing it for any sustained period.


> She resents me for the fact that [our kids] miss me because I am away all day.


As I said earlier, she is jealous of your family because she cannot trust anyone and fears abandonment by you. This same lack of trust and fear is seen in her jealousy of your relationship with your own children. Like your W, my exW was jealous of my relationship with anyone. She hated by foster-son and rarely would visit my other family members.


> [Her disliking my family] led to me lying about anything to do with them - lunches, invites to kids events, and bbqs.


Because BPDers are unable to trust, the worst thing you can do is to lie to them. It makes for more fights. Even so, the outcome would have been the same. With my exW, for example, I never lied to her about anything in 15 years. She nonetheless persisted in believing -- about every two weeks -- that I was telling her a new lie. Contributing to the problem is that BPDers will lie when it is the only way to save face because they cannot tolerate the thought of being wrong. Your W thus will project onto you any flaw -- like her tendency to defend herself occasionally with lies.


> Really, the accusations of lying are true when specific to my family.


Please let go of that. Her accusations of YOUR lying had little or nothing to do with the actual lies told about meeting family members at a barbecue. Instead, she is terribly guilty about her lies to you -- lies that are a thousand times more serious than anything you ever did. As a BPDer, her only effective tool for eliminating the painful guilt is _projection_ (i.e., "Sis did it"). She therefore is accusing you of abandoning her for your family (FALSE). And this is the main reason she is accusing you of being the liar in the family. Note that projection is not lying, which would be unable to rid her of the guilt. Because the projecting of blame onto you is done at the subconscious level -- it must be or it cannot relieve the stress of guilt -- she really believes (consciously) that you are a liar and that you were abandoning her by standing with your family. Likewise, my exW sincerely feels the same way about me. My point, then, is that you were going to be accused of lying regardless of whether you lied about family visits. She has to believe you are a liar in order to relieve the guilt of her own lies.


> She's an introvert.


Most BPDers direct their anger outside themselves when triggered, which causes them to periodically be very verbally abusive. The rages -- tantrums actually -- typically last about 5 hours. That is the way my exW is.

Some BPDers are "inner directed" with their rage, however. Hence, instead of being verbally abusive, they turn the anger on themselves in self destructive ways. These BPDers are often called the "quiet borderlines" because they don't do the verbal abuse very often. Instead, they act like victims and project vulnerability. I mention this distinction in case your W, being introverted, falls into the second group. Even if she does, however, she clearly has changed in the past nine months, given the way she is verbally abusive to you.


> I am a good Dad who loves his kids and also still loves his wife.


Of course you are. But that is such an understatement. Like me, you are a caretaker whose desire to _be_ _needed_ (for what you can do) far exceeds your desire to _be loved_ (for the man you already are). That is, we were raised in a way that caused us to mistake being needed for being loved. The problem, then, is not that we want to take care of people. Rather, it is our willingness to keep doing it even when it is to our great detriment. Therapists call this "codependency," a badly named behavioral trait. Most codependents I've met are fiercely independent in nearly every respect. Typically, a codependent man will be working full time (45-60 hours in your case) -- while taking care of two kids and five dogs, and will still find time on weekends to go out looking for a spouse to take care of too.


> As for my infraction, as it was explained to me, she feels I always choose my family over her.


As I said, BPDers experience such intense feelings that they believe it has to be right -- it has to be a fact. Hence, when a BPDer is feeling suffocated by intimacy, she will push you away by creating a fight over nothing -- some imagined infraction. It is pointless to try to reason with her because any attempt to discuss it makes her stressful (and does so in seconds) -- and when she is under stress, she turns control over to the intuitive, child-like part of her mind. You therefore are reduced to trying to reason with a young child. If she could speak rationally, she likely would say she is so terrified at the thought of your abandoning her (as you seem to do when visiting family) that she is going to preemptively abandon you first -- just as soon as she has another man to be with because she fears being alone.


> However, I worry about why it's harder for her to get to me. Am I putting up walls?


Yes, but it's nothing to worry about. You've grown stronger, not weaker. You have been building stronger personal boundaries, preventing her from walking all over you like she did for so long. Indeed, I suspect you started building stronger boundaries in the last few years of your marriage. I say that because it is what I did. The result was that my being stronger scared my exW with enhanced fear of abandonment -- never mind that I had no intentions of leaving her. I therefore suspect that your emotional growth contributed, in part, to her decision to preemptively abandon you.

For a better understanding of why it is so difficult for caretakers like us to let go of a BPDer wife, I suggest you read a short article at http://bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/10_beliefs.pdf . I also suggest that, in addition to participating on this forum, you join BPDfamily.com, the largest forum targeted to the _partners _of BPDers. It has a dozen message boards, two of which should be of great help to you. One is _Leaving a BPDer_ and the other is _Raising a Child when One Parent Has BPD_. Of course, I will try to answer any questions you have about your W's BPD behavior on this thread.


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## peacefully

Uptown, I wanted to say that I am finding this information very, very interesting! Thank you for sharing your insight!


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## Help239

I agree - thanks Uptown.

I also have felt for years that my stb-xs was incapable of "loving". I don't say that lightly or to demean her in any way. I simply mean she was missing something from her childhood and simply lacked that capacity. I thought it was my "job" to teach her. 

Finally, in respect to turning on a dime, we had many situations where when things were going great and I felt lke she would "sabotage" things just to bring things back towards the opposite extreme.

Well, I will look at those links when I get some time on my hands. These days I try to keep as busy as possible when the children are not home.

In response to her "happy anniversary" comment yesterday I posted this status on my facebook wall. She tricked our daughter to reveal her password to her after lying and saying I had given it to her (when I don't even know what it is). So, I believe she logs on as our daughter to spy on me in facebook. Here's the link with my message to her:

YouTube - "I'm Movin' On" - Rascal Flatts Official Music Video


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## Uptown

Help239 said:


> I have felt for years that my stb-xs was incapable of "loving". ... I simply mean she was missing something from her childhood and simply lacked that capacity.


Most ex-partners of BPDers would certainly agree with you, Help. I want to comment on this issue because the #1 question that ex-partners want answered -- by far -- is "Was I really ever loved?" My view is that, yes, you really were loved. Yet, because her perception of you was distorted while splitting you white, much of what she loved consisted of her own projected attributes, not the real you. Moreover, she could love you only in a very immature way. The important question, then, is not whether she loved you but, rather, why you were willing to settle for such an impaired form of love.

All of us experience this immature form of love every time we "fall in love" with a new person. It is extremely exciting but, of course, has no staying power. We therefore call it "infatuation" to distinguish it from the mature form of love, which occurs months later and which requires that you love the real aspects of a person, not the projected and imagined aspects.

Because BPDers are unstable, their intense feelings of love and hate are very fleeting. They cannot hold onto them for very long. In that respect, their feelings are shallow. This is why it is often said that BPDer's feelings are "a mile wide and an inch deep."

Being the recipient of infatuation is not God awful but, on the other hand, is not too desirable either. It's not God awful because, after all, it is what you get for the first several months of any new romantic relationship. And it is what you get when raising a young child, who is incapable of seeing the "real you" and is in a constant state of splitting, i.e., either _adoring_ Daddy when he meets her every need or _hating _Daddy when he withholds the tiniest thing.

Indeed, that child-like form of love has a purity of expression that makes it very irresistible to other adults, who find BPDers amazingly warm and expressive. My exW, for example, has a wonderful ability to put people immediately at ease -- to the point that they feel very comfortable around her. Indeed, within 30 minutes, she can make a complete stranger feel like he has known her for a long time. And people confess things to her that they've never told anyone else.

Because BPDers do black-white thinking, they adore you while they are splitting you white. They therefore are not encumbered with mixed feelings, which cause the rest of us to continually send mixed signals when we are trying hard to express love, e.g., we are betrayed with facial expressions that generally say "I love you" but are marred by eyebrow positions belonging with a frown. On top of that, BPDers are masters at projecting vulnerability because every day of their lives is spent thinking of themselves as victims. As I mentioned earlier, vulnerability is "catnip" to codependents like you and me. 

The result is that going home and seeing your BPDer wife can be -- on a good day -- the equivalent of opening the door to see your four-year-old running toward you with outstretched arms and unabashed joy. How bad can that be? You don't see mothers and fathers run screaming from their kids because the kids cannot see the real people that constitute their parents. Not so awful, is it? The parents are perfectly willing to settle for "I love you" knowing full well that it really means "I desperately need you and don't know how I would survive without you."

Yet, that quality of "love" is not at all desirable in a relationship between two adults. That is why normal men are willing to raise a four-year-old but -- unlike you and me -- they don't go out of their way trying to marry a woman whose emotional development is frozen at that level.

You were dead-on correct when you concluded that your W was missing something from childhood. Until she goes through several years of treatment -- an unlikely event -- she will remain incapable of loving you in a mature sense. With my exW, for example, she "loved me" only when she was able to sugar coat me with projected qualities that no human being can possess. Whenever she got a glimpse of the real me, she would immediately be triggered into disliking me, if not hating me. 

Hence, I was lovable only as long as I hid much of myself by carefully "walking on eggshells." Indeed, all long-term partners of BPDers become very good at hiding their true selves. This is why, after an ex-partner comes stumbling out of a BPD relationship, he is surprised at how quickly he returns to his "old self" -- and is surprised to realize that, for years, he had forgotten what it was like to simply act like himself.


> I thought it was my "job" to teach her.


I thought that way too -- for 15 years just like you. Like I said, we are caretakers and we set ourselves up for failure whenever we attempt to fix the unfixable. One reason you could never teach her how to love maturely is the frightening feeling of engulfment she gets whenever she experiences intimacy (i.e., true intimacy, not sex). Significantly, she both fears and craves intimacy.

Such a paradox (i.e., craving what you most fear) is difficult to comprehend. But we can often gain some understanding of paradoxes by finding a poetic reference to them using terms and concepts we already understand. Fortunately, a BPDer on another forum provides exactly that. He writes, "When a BPD talks about intimacy, it's like a vampire talking about sunrise: every one of them wants to see one, but they are frightened to because it means death if they do." This pain caused by intimacy is why it is impossible for you to love her enough to fix her or teach her how to love in an adult fashion. Trying to do so is like trying to help a burn patient by hugging him.

The other reason you could not teach her is her inability to trust you. Like your W, mine got furious with me every week -- blaming me for crushing the dining table, urinating in the living room, and destroying half of the kitchen appliances. The blame list was endless because she had no idea that there was a four-ton elephant in the room.

Nor did I for many years. But I did recognize a menacing presence. So, to unmask it and learn its name, I went with my exW to weekly sessions with six different psychologists over a 15-year period. As I eventually learned, however, insurance companies will cover the costs of cats, dogs, and parrots -- but not elephants because they live too long. Moreover, clients like my exW are so scared of elephants that they will drop out of therapy if there is any mention of them.

Consequently, some psychologists referred to our elephant as "a cat" and "a dog" and some identified it vaguely as a "thought disorder," "bottomless pit," and "childhood ego damage." Even when -- at the end of the 15 years -- I found books on the Internet clearly identifying it as an elephant and showing a photo of one, our last psychologist said it was untrue. When asked repeatedly what the damn menacing hulk was, she always replied that she did not use labels for animals and such because labeling is not useful.

So I made a last ditch effort to persuade my exW that the elephant exists and needs to be controlled. I found her down at the river, struggling to stay afloat but very close to shore. It was heartbreaking for me to watch her slipping under the water, gasping for breath. She was only five feet from where I stood on solid ground, extending my arm. "OVER HERE," I yelled. "Just reach out your hand to mine. Let me help you! Please, honey, GRAB MY HAND!"

Sadly, she could not do what I asked. She was incapable of doing so. But not because she was blind and could not see my arm. And not because she was deaf and could not hear my voice. No, neither of those things. Rather, it was because she could not trust me.


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## Help239

..getting the kids back tomorrow..can't wait!!!!!!


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## peacefully

:smthumbup:


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## Uptown

:iagree: Have a great weekend with your kids!


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## Help239

Thanks.

Picked up the kids - she was 20 minutes late. No bother. But then she decided while they were inside getting ready (they should've already been packed) that she would talk to me. She wants to go see our pastor so we can work on "us". No, not "us" like a couple but "us" like so we can sit next to each other at school functions and stuff. "How long are you going to be mad at me?" she said at the end.

My response? Who says I'm mad? For that matter, why should I go see our pastor? Nothing against him, he's a great guy but if the reason to see him is not something I support....why? I told her I do not want to give the kids a false idea that we're ok or that I agree with her actions over that last 9 months.

She insists that I'm the one with the problem and that she has done nothing wrong.

I told her the kids have not complained about our behavior at their functions so I don't see why SHE has this need to be "friends" and have my ear whenever she feels like it. Further, with phone, email, text, and IM as a way to communicate why hasn't she initiated any communication beforehand? For that matter, speak to the OM about his need to continue to hijack your old email and IM accounts in order to harass me.

What are you talking about she says? Go ask your new man I respond. Not my place.

This is the most you have spoken to me in months she said. I had no response for that.


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## Help239

Now I get an email with her quoting the child custody document saying I violated the order by not consulting her about hiring a nanny for our children while I work.

Excuse me, but the order says we both need to consult each other about enrolling or removing our children from private or public schools and daycare. It says nothing about private caregivers in my home. For that matter, I am protected by the "first right of refusal" stipulation that states I am allowed to have a caregiver watch the children while I am at work - even if I am away for more than 4 hours.

This is the clause that SHE has broken a half dozen times by not allowing me to care for our kids when she wants to go party and hires a babysitter. That's NOT work my dear.


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## Affaircare

Help239 said:


> ... but "us" like so we can sit next to each other at school functions and stuff. "How long are you going to be mad at me?" she said at the end.
> 
> ... I do not want to give the kids a false idea that we're ok or that I agree with her actions over that last 9 months.
> 
> She insists that I'm the one with the problem and that she has done nothing wrong.
> 
> I told her the kids have not complained about our behavior at their functions so I don't see why SHE has this need to be "friends" and have my ear whenever she feels like it...


Reality check here for ya, Help. When spouses divorce, they no longer continue to be "friends" in reality. Usually one spouse moved to New Jersey, the other to California, and ne'er the twain shall meet! :lol: When they attend their child's graduation, they sit on separate sides of the auditorium usually with the new people in their lives. They may attend the banquet afterward or grad party, but they more or less stay away from each other and sit on opposite ends of the reception. AND THAT'S IF THEY GET ALONG WELL! 

So her expectations are complete bunk. Don't worry about it. Nothing personal but is very far detached from reality. You are not the one with the problem. If, for the most part, you ignore "her and hers" and leave her alone...then you are 100% fine and probably ahead of most.


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## Help239

Affaircare - thanks for that. Lol...now she's insisting she has video footage of me driving by her house at "all hours of the night". HELLO? After your unprovoked TRO I bought a GPS tracking device and had it installed in MY car. I can account for every MINUTE of the last 9 months and unless I'm asked to drop off a toy, clothes, or support checks ... I am NOWHERE near your house. Nor do I want to be.


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## turnera

Damn, you're too smart for you own good, lol.


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## CodeNameBob

Damn, I second that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:smthumbup:


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## Help239

Thanks. But I have come to realize this is how she operates. So I need to be ready for anything.

Her) I get "nice" when I want something.
Me) If I give in to her "nice" behavior I will be sorry. 

I used to do it all the time and thought I was putting money in the bank - for all of you out there you have ever been through couple counseling - it's like building equity in your "love bank" account.

9 months ago it was:

Her) I'm not sure about the divorce I just filed for - can you give me some "space"?
Me) Sure, I'll go stay in a hotel for a week. What happened? She got a temporary restraining order against me and moved another man into our home for a week. Doormat.

And, today it was:

Her) Let's go talk to our pastor and make everything ok between us
Me) No, you just want to clear your conscience and that's not my responsibility. Go sell crazy somewhere else.

See, I can learn.


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## Uptown

Help239 said:


> I get "nice" when she wants something. ... I used to do it all the time and thought I was putting money in the bank .... like building equity in your "love bank" account.


Help, I am glad you wised up so quickly. Because your wife has BPD (borderline personality disorder), it is impossible for you to build up a reserve of good will with her. All of the thousands of sacrifices you made for her in the past were as lasting and permanent as a sand castle built next to the ocean. They were washed away by the next wave. And with BPDers, the emotional tides come in strong and fast -- probably at least once every day. 

Due to the trauma in her early childhood, she never learned how to regulate her emotions or do self-soothing to calm herself. The result is that her emotions are so intense that they wash away all prior feelings, which is why she is incapable of appreciating anything you do for her for more than a few days (perhaps a week if you spend a fortune on a gift). Then it is like it never happened. 

Actually, it is worse than that because, within two weeks, she will lose all interest in the gift she had pleaded for and start blaming you for having wasted money on it. My exW, for example, had begged for a piano that I spent $3,500 on. In three years she sat down and played it five times. The same thing happened with $6,000 spent on fabrics and another $5,000 on sewing machines -- all that for a total sewing output of one dress, one vest, and a cat collar.


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## Brewster 59

Help239 said:


> Thanks. But I have come to realize this is how she operates. So I need to be ready for anything.
> 
> Her) I get "nice" when I want something.
> Me) If I give in to her "nice" behavior I will be sorry.
> 
> I used to do it all the time and thought I was putting money in the bank - for all of you out there you have ever been through couple counseling - it's like building equity in your "love bank" account.
> 
> 9 months ago it was:
> 
> Her) I'm not sure about the divorce I just filed for - can you give me some "space"?
> Me) Sure, I'll go stay in a hotel for a week. What happened? She got a temporary restraining order against me and moved another man into our home for a week. Doormat.
> 
> And, today it was:
> 
> Her) Let's go talk to our pastor and make everything ok between us
> Me) No, you just want to clear your conscience and that's not my responsibility. Go sell crazy somewhere else.
> 
> See, I can learn.


Wow thats insane, she really thinks you would want to be friends with her or sit by her, or have anything to do with her after the crap she pulled? and pulls anytime she get a chance?
Stay clear of the psycho, I mean really when you have to put a GPS on your own car to protect yourself you know your dealing with a psycho.


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## Help239

So Monday morning I sent her an email letting her know one of our daughters wants to stop going to the school my stb-xw got her transferred to. Instead, she wants to go to her "home school" where all of her friends from the previous years are going. Normally I'd expect some discussion to take place and for us to act in the best interest of our child. 

Nope.

She lawyers up and wants to take me to court to force our child to go to the new school because it's "better". Translation, because "I have connections" at this school. 

Oh, and by the way, the new attorney wants to recalculate support.

This is going to be a lovely month.


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## peacefully

Help, I have heard of many people who go to great lengths to avoid divorcing, in order to avoid the mess and expense of being divorced... however they end up being miserable and resentful. They sell out their long term well being to avoid immediate conflict and pain.
When I read this post I think about how awful your life would have been if you and your wife had stayed together, she has been showing her true colors all through this process and therefore, I am glad for you that you will be moving on.
I support you in fighting for you and your kids rights and best interests, and I know that you will not allow her to take advantage of you and your good nature, you have proven yourself too smart to be taken for a ride by her!
Every time she pulls something like this, just count your lucky stars that you do not have to live with her anymore!!


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## Affaircare

Help239 said:


> So Monday morning I sent her an email letting her know one of our daughters wants to stop going to the school my stb-xw got her transferred to. Instead, she wants to go to her "home school" where all of her friends from the previous years are going. Normally I'd expect some discussion to take place and for us to act in the best interest of our child.
> 
> Nope.
> 
> She lawyers up and wants to take me to court to force our child to go to the new school because it's "better". Translation, because "I have connections" at this school.
> 
> Oh, and by the way, the new attorney wants to recalculate support.
> 
> This is going to be a lovely month.


...BUT I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY WE CAN'T BE FRIENDS! 
      :bsflag: :bsflag: :bsflag: :bsflag: :bsflag: :bsflag: 

Really? Because I have a clue for you....


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## Brewster 59

Affaircare said:


> ...BUT I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY WE CAN'T BE FRIENDS!
> :bsflag: :bsflag: :bsflag: :bsflag: :bsflag: :bsflag:
> 
> Really? Because I have a clue for you....


No shiite! Help, it seems to me that this firing of attournys, constantly taking you to court for anything and everything is a bit frivoulous. I think I would ask your attourney if there is a chance to make HER pay for all this BS including the cost of your lawyer.


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## Deejo

What's this, attorney number 4?

I find it inconceivable that every time you make so much as a comment that she doesn't like - her first response is to file a motion.

Did she win the friggin lottery or something? Look into it, because if she did - you are entitled to half


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## Help239

It's attorney #3 for her. I need to win the lottery to pay for mine but I'm sure glad she's on my side.

Anyways, even AFTER she hears why our daughter doesn't want to attend this particular school she's still pursuing the motion. Our daughter spoke very clearly last night when saying goodnight and did not want to go. I get an email from my stb-xw this morning saying she expects her to be in school today. Nevermind that she sent the email at 9a - when school starts at 745a - but it's just all about her. Appearances, losing face, etc.

She's probably thinking about things like: what will the PTA think? what will all of my friends think? When all she should be thinking about is doing right by our daughter.

Court tomorrow.....


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## Affaircare

How did court go Help? Did it sort of feel like this?


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## Help239

Lol....actually the judge was very fair and denied every single request she had - no support modification, no discussion on the nanny, and no attorneys fees for my stb-xw. Basically these are not emergency situations and do not require an ex parte hearing so she admonished her attorney.

Unfortunately she still wants to pursue all of these so she got a date set for an OSC hearing in Sept. Let's think about this, the nanny thing was because I have someone watching the kids during summer while they are out of school and I'm at work. Forgive me for wanting to make sure they are safe and have an adult around who interracts with them. The Sept hearing would be 2 weeks after they start school. So now you want them half the day after school while I'm at work? Please.

We are also going to a mediator to discuss the schooling issue.

Today was INSANE> she called the police when our 13 year old refused to go with her. She knew our daughter felt this way due to an argument they had last week and other issues she has been present for during the last 9 months. Of course my stb-xw thinks I'm trying to turn our daughter against her. We got her into counseling and even the counselor told my stb-xw that a week apart would help them (daughter and mom) sort things out. But no, she calls the cops. This after telling out daughter SHE HAS NO RIGHTS TO DO THIS and HAS TO GO WITH HER because it's a court order. Officer shows up, hears stb-xw rant, my side, and our daughter's side. Tells the wife our daughter doesn't want to go with her and he won't make her.

Then she all of a sudden switches gears. From demeaning our daughter and yelling to asking the officer to ask if she would take a 1 hour ride with her to sort it out. Nope. She left upset with the 3 little ones who all didn't want to go but had no choice.

Frustrating.....


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## Help239

I asked the nanny to be witness to the discussions with my daughter between her mom and the police officer. Good thing too because he just files an incident report that states he came to my house. No detail about the words exchanged.

So, how bad is it at my stb-xw's house? I've only heard bits from the kids but always encourage them to give their mom another chance. Here's are text messages from one of my kids last night:

C: I miss u and wish I could go home 
Me: I miss u 2. I know it's hard right now but you need to give your mom a chance. Mom and Dad both love you and want what's best for you <3
C: Goodnight i love u dad with all my heart
Me: Goonight sweetie. I know you are a good girl and love you all the way to the moon and back 
C: text u in the morning. shhh secret from mom. say goodnight to X for me (daughter who chose to say with me this week). love u C
Me: no secrets honey. X is asleep but I will tell her in the morning
C: D is fighting with mom 
Me: sorry to hear than honey. they will work it out ok? make sure you let D know you love her and it will get better.
C: ok...I'm sad i wish i was at your house. soon enough it will just be me and E here because D and X will be taking breaks from mom
Me: why do you say that? mom and dad both love you.
C: yeah but we all want breaks from mom and only X gets hers because she is older
Me: who said that? X and mom are just on time out and will work on whatever is bothering them
C: nobody said it I thought it
Me: Cheer up sweetie. Things will get better. You'll see. Mom and Dad only want you to be safe and happy
C: maybe u want that but mom ... not so much
Me: she has a lot going on right now but she does want that....she's your mom
C: r u sure?
Me: yes, all mommys and daddys want their kids to be safe and happy. they just have different ways of showing it. Please get some sleep ok? (considering it was 11p)
C: ok if u say so. don't forget to say goodnight to my stuffed animals (enter names here) and good morning to X for me please. luv u and miss u lots. goodnight C.
Me: I love you honey
C: Love u to


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## turnera

Very sad. I hope some day she is ashamed to no end.


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## Help239

Sad indeed. Called to say goodnight tonight and our daughter is still stressed and upset about the decision to keep her in the current school. Almost a whole week and she's still worried about it. Not healthy at all. I just wish her mother would stop thinking about her own selfish needs and see what's DIRECTLY in front of her - an unhappy child who's suffering because of her decision.

On a brighter note - I get the kids back tomorrow


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## Uptown

Help, thanks so much for updating us so we know you are still hanging in there. Enjoy your kids this weekend!


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## The Destroyer

My heart goes out to you and your kids. I will say what you are living through is my fear. It's why I sit here on this fence trying to figure out if this is best for all 3 of us or if I'm just being selfish and should stick it out. 

Smooches to you and yours.

~The Destroyer


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## outinthecold

Dear The Destroyer

Responsibilities, we all have them but as parents and spouses our responsibilities stretch wide and deep.

Never can we relinquish them.

Never can we be without them.

Only two things could ever end a marriage where children are involved, the violent and the dangerous.

Anything else is/are personal selfish reasons. 

Adultery

Neglect

Hurt

Boredom

Love

Sex

Take your pick, just not violence and not dangerous

It is selfish of you.

You married someone for a reason, sure it is going to be hard, sure it is relentless.

Sure love can fade, so can fat, so can boredom, so can hairlines.

Remember each one of us is/are responsible for their own happiness.

Children’s hurt is everlasting; it will carry on generations to generations.

Look into your children’s eyes and at the same time stab them in the heart, “Your father and I are getting a divorce”

You have to try and try and keep trying, your children are worth it.

We as parents sacrifice continuously, you will have to keep sacrificing. 

There is no choice.

Never, never say uncle first.

You have to be the one that keeps their integrity, keeps their dignity, keeps their honor. 

You have to be the one the children look to everlasting as the example of a clear conscience, as someone who tried and did everything to keep their family together.

Be the shinning example, the light in the port, the one they trust.

They will remember this forever and in their lives will always look to you as example of what is true.


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## seeking sanity

Outinthecold - This is Help's thread, and The Destroyer didn't ask for any feedback from you. In fact it's her first post. Respectfully, I'd encourage you to give advice to people that ask for it. These boards are for people to work through their issues, not get lectured.


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## The Destroyer

seeking sanity said:


> Outinthecold - This is Help's thread, and The Destroyer didn't ask for any feedback from you. In fact it's her first post. Respectfully, I'd encourage you to give advice to people that ask for it. These boards are for people to work through their issues, not get lectured.


Thanks!


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## Brewster 59

seeking sanity said:


> Outinthecold - This is Help's thread, and The Destroyer didn't ask for any feedback from you. In fact it's her first post. Respectfully, I'd encourage you to give advice to people that ask for it. These boards are for people to work through their issues, not get lectured.


Really? so why are you lecturing OITC? did he ask for your feedback? I think the boards are made of of peoples opinions and everyone has a right to their opinion.


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## Affaircare

Nonetheless, this is HELP'S thread, and not Destroyers. 

If OITC wants to address Destroyers, netiquette would be to address her on her thread, and to address HELP on his own thread. 

So folks, please let's talk to HELP here. Such as asking: 

Well, Help, you got the kids back this week right? How's it going? Any chance you registered your daughter in the school she wants to go to ? (lol Yes, I'm stirring the pot!  )


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## outinthecold

So much hassle.

Do you think people really get help here?

Moral support, YES

Emotional support, most definitely

But real help, come on.

Real help comes from people you can talk to face to face. A friend that cares for you. A friend who can lay gentle hand on your shoulder, a friend who will massively bear hug you, a friend who can just sit next to you and be there if you cry or scream or talk or just vegetablize yourself.

Help from a forum, people are a billion times more complex. For every story here, the depth of information only skims the surface. So, I layed out the stark reality of divorce.

Take it or leave it. 

I've been thru the whole ugly cycle.

I'm just now somewhere.

Somewhere different than where I was.

Somewhere where I want to be is sometime away.


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## Help239

I appreciate everyone's input. "That's all I got to say about that" (-Forrest Gump).

No, our daughter is still reluctantly going to the same school but we see the child mediator in about 7 hours. Hopefully she will act in the best interest of the child and not the parent. I also have a sneaking suspicion that my stb-xw will take this opportunity to bring up the issue with our older daughter not wanting to see her. I'm sure she'll blame me and throw me to the dogs. My plan is simply to stay calm, not take anything personally, and simply tell the truth. It has served me well so far.


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## CodeNameBob

Good luck! They truth will set you free, don't know who said that, or if it just cliche. I think any reasonable person can just look at your STBX's actions and know she is to steps shy of the loony bin.


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## Brewster 59

Affaircare said:


> Nonetheless, this is HELP'S thread, and not Destroyers.
> 
> If OITC wants to address Destroyers, netiquette would be to address her on her thread, and to address HELP on his own thread.
> 
> So folks, please let's talk to HELP here. Such as asking:
> 
> Well, Help, you got the kids back this week right? How's it going? Any chance you registered your daughter in the school she wants to go to ? (lol Yes, I'm stirring the pot!  )


Your right, sometimes other discussions arise on someones elses thread, but I guess your right and I should refrain from that.

Help are you really sure you cant make your stbx pay your attourney costs on some of the crazy stuff she is pulling. My stbx is trying to make me pay her attourney so hey it might be worth looking into.


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## Help239

Looney? Keep reading.

Attorney's fees? She charged her 1st 2 attorneys($6k) on joint credit cards that I'm making monthly payments on. My attorney fees might be recoverable for unnecessary court visits but I doubt it.

So the result of a court visit today is the judge thinks a month isn't enough time to decide on our daughter's school so she ordered her to keep attending for another month. So technically my stb-xw "won the battle". She should be feeling pretty good, huh? NOPE.

She shows up 30 minutes late to pick the kids up. Asks to speak to our 13 year old - I ask and reply after checking with her - you already texted her and she already replied no, she still says no. Meanwhile the 3 younger kids head out to their mom's car.

So the stb-xw then strikes up a conversation about how court went today and how she's tired of me taking us to court all the time. WHAT? I reminded her that on EVERY occassion we've appeared in court it was her request. The only one questionable was for the vocational exam request but that was only because she renegged on her decision to take it if I paid for 100% of the cost. She showed up to court with nothing new so the judge made her pay half. I still incurred 2k in fees that day alone.

Our 9 year old comes up from the car and asks to use the bathroom. The stb-x and I keep chatting. I excuse myself to check on our daughter. I return and our daughter starts to bolt out the door as I open it. At that moment my stb-xw forcibly pushes her way into the house screaming "I want to meet the nanny, I want to meet the nanny!!" She pins our 9 year old against me and the door due to her momentum. Our daughter screams. I let go of the door and yell for the nanny to take her away from this. Then I yell at our oldest that mom is in the house! I ask the nanny to call 911. Meanwhile we spent a good minute struggling in the doorway.

All the while my stb-xw is yelling into her cell phone (recording) "keep your hands off me! You're hurting me! This is my house too!" I'm still holding the door handle and the door frame. Wasn't laying a hand on her. She stays in the area near the door until the police arrive. They take a formal report and tell her since she relocated 8 months ago and not even her mail comes here anymore that she has no business here other than picking up the kids. She disagrees. 

The child caught in the middle now doesn't want to go with mom. Understandibly. However, I convinced her to give mom another chance in front of the police after asking them to tell mom about our daughters concerns about mom getting mad and yelling at her about what happened. So, in the end (2 hours later) the 3 youngest ones went with mom and the oldest one stayed with me again.

I am totally justified in filing a restraining order. However, at this stage I am not afraid for my own safety, just for the impact on the children if she chooses to act like this in front of them.

Seriously. What a Friday.


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## Uptown

Help, with your STB-XW having the emotional development of a four year old, she is in many respects the youngest member of your family -- and certainly behaves that way.


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## Help239

Agreed. And her new man? He spent 2 hours last night texting my cell phone with expletives and broken grammar. I blocked his number.


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## Uptown

Well, her "new man" is in for a rude surprise when she starts splitting him black and telling the same lies -- which he is now so quick to believe about you -- about him to her next new man.


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## Deejo

I'm going to vent. This isn't advice. It's not even terribly appropriate. I'm angry. I would not, could not handle it as you are. Pointedly, I'm not insinuating that you are wrong.

This person is your enemy. She is an adversary. She wants to harm you. Whether aware of it or not, she IS harming the children. She USES the children in her efforts to harm you.

Despite all of the 'joint money' she whimsically pisses away to bury you, all of the off-the-hook, bullsh!t stunts she pulls, and patently bizarre behavior, you continue to try and deal rationally, even compassionately with these circumstances.

How do you see this ever improving?


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## Help239

Hey Deejo, I hope you're doing better today. I appreciate your comments.

I don't see this improving unless my stb-xw gets help and that is up to her. The MAIN reason why I must deal with these wild incidents in a rational manner is because any one of these things can be twisted and used against me in a court of law. Perception wins - not truth - in the courtroom. So, until the trial is done and we are officially divorced, ANYTHING can change. The last thing I want to change is custody in her favor.

Just Friday her attorney accused me in front of the judge of keeping my daughter out of school for half a day by scheduling a Friday counseling session. Truth is I scheduled a morning appointment for another daughter (the one that doesn't want to live with her mom anymore) and my STB-XW called the couselor and got her to split the session between that daughter and the one with the school issue. So who kept the daughter out of school for half a day? She did but I was made out to be the bad guy.

And, this incident on Friday? According to her attorney I will be cast as the aggressor and she will her cell phone recordings where she pretended I was attacking her. Even though I have a witness her attorney wil cast doubt by stating she is an employee of mine.

Look, I agree with you emotionally. But I need to keep a level head because this is my kids' lives were talking about here. Although their mother will always be there - until they are old enough to choose for themselves I need to be able to give them a choice. Does that make sense?

It is clear to me that my stb-xw is not happy - even though she stated repeatedly on the front porch Friday that she is very happy. That was seconds before she barged into the house. Bottom line, is I don't need to worry about her as she has stated so often. I am no longer responsible for her. I will ALWAYS be responsible for our children.


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## Deejo

I am doing better today, thanks Help. I respect your presence of mind and restraint.

I shudder to think of how I would be responding if I had to deal with the kinds of events you describe.

I want very much to believe that the high-road pays off. You Sir, are walking the path of Mt. Everest.

Although I do hope that your attorney has teeth like a Great White Shark and enjoys the taste of crazy ex-spouses.


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## Help239

Ha ha Deejo - yes, I wouldn't trade my attorney for another. She is THE BEST and genuinely has my (and my kids) best interest at heart. As for the attorneys my stb-xw has been hiring - dirt bags for sure. First one recommended the temp restraining order based on false claims. The second one allowed her to keep pushing for a permanent restraining order (until the day of the court date) then recommended she drop it (he didn't even read her court doc until he showed up in court). This new one is all about bending the truth - aka. LIES!! 

Glad to hear you are better today.



p.s. I decided to start counseling this week. I figured since the kids are seeing one, my perspective can only help the counselor understand what they are going through.


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## Help239

So I have signed up for co-parenting classes. As always, I have communicated concerns about the children with my stb-xw. I am not accusatory. I just state the facts. She is always defensive and lately verbally abusive (ironically like the OM). Yet, she insists she doesn't need any co-parenting training. Here's a sample from today:

Me: Please make sure X uses a carseat.
Stb-xw: X has a carseat.
Me: I was told he did not use one last Friday. I just want to remind you he needs to be in one still.
Stb-xw: I do not need a reminder. I always use a carseat for safety but was moving stuff last Friday. Legally he does not need one call CHP if you need to verify and stop being such an a$$
Me: Is this stb-xw? Not sure why you are reacting in this way. My reference was from the NHTSA website.

Now, mind you last Friday we were in court from 730am to 230pm and pick up was at 3-330p. When did she have time to be moving anything? She forgot plain and simple. I have been told many times this year that the OM drives the kids and doesn't use a carseat. Is it that hard to move the darn seat?

My question at the end was due to the fact that sometimes she lets the OM use her email and phone so I'm never really sure who I'm communicating with.


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## MEM2020

Talk to your lawyer. Not sure behavior has to be "illegal" in order to lose custody. If there is a pattern of "unsafe" parenting it may help you eventually gain full custody. 

I feel for you - this is truly an awful situation.




Help239 said:


> So I have signed up for co-parenting classes. As always, I have communicated concerns about the children with my stb-xw. I am not accusatory. I just state the facts. She is always defensive and lately verbally abusive (ironically like the OM). Yet, she insists she doesn't need any co-parenting training. Here's a sample from today:
> 
> Me: Please make sure X uses a carseat.
> Stb-xw: X has a carseat.
> Me: I was told he did not use one last Friday. I just want to remind you he needs to be in one still.
> Stb-xw: I do not need a reminder. I always use a carseat for safety but was moving stuff last Friday. Legally he does not need one call CHP if you need to verify and stop being such an a$$
> Me: Is this stb-xw? Not sure why you are reacting in this way. My reference was from the NHTSA website.
> 
> Now, mind you last Friday we were in court from 730am to 230pm and pick up was at 3-330p. When did she have time to be moving anything? She forgot plain and simple. I have been told many times this year that the OM drives the kids and doesn't use a carseat. Is it that hard to move the darn seat?
> 
> My question at the end was due to the fact that sometimes she lets the OM use her email and phone so I'm never really sure who I'm communicating with.


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## uhaul4mybaggage

Hi, Help. I just finished reading your entire thread, including other's links. I have found it really informative and helpful to me on so many levels. I am so glad you began writing at the very beginning of your ordeal. I wish I had. The advice and support would have helped me so much. Now, I have to deal with my mishandling of some of the situations and I regret what should have taken a year and been over by now has taken 6 and is still not over. But I will start my own thread on that, as i don't want to hijack yours. I would appreaciate if the helpful souls that have been chiming in here would be so kind to look for it a little later. This is my first time on a blog and that is another lesson I have learned a lot about by reading your thread. 

I am a little confused on one point. I know you two have 50/50. Which of you has primary custody? I am finding through my research that it is really important that you go for primary, in your situation especially, because it gives you leverage you will need over her instability. For example, if she has primary (their home address is with her,) she can move out of town more easily and they have to come with her. (Except your 13 year old, I think.) She could really jerk you around that way. 

I really agree with Turnera that you need documentation. I know you are doing it, but I wonder if your thread itself isn't the best documentation. Ask your lawyer if you can use it. It has specifics of who, what, where, when, what was said, all neatly date/time stamped already for you. Bang! Done! At least, you can use it to refresh your memory if need be. 

I am reading that in my state (VA) the bad-mouthing your x is doing to your kids about you is called Parental Alienation Syndrome. If you can prove it, it gives you excellent odds at custody because judges reaallly don't like it. Do you have one of those cool pens that records video and sound as it sits unassumingly in your pocket? Just a thought....

You are my hero. What has been done to you should be a crime. I know the pain and conflicts you have felt at the beginning; (see my post on spouses that won't disclose.) I can't think of anything you have done in response to her actions that could have possibly been handled any better, given the fact that you can't predict the future. 

As your children each hit 13yo, they will be able to decide for themselves if they want to continue to see mom. Amazing how intuitive your little one's epiphany of that was. She can't wait. Your days of being tied on a daily basis to your x are numbered. Eventually it will be just weddings and graduations, at most. I envy you that a little, as my situation is different. But I'm glad you have that to look forward to. Perhaps if you get primary, you can move just a little further out of her reach...?

Your kids are lucky to have you.


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## Help239

Hi uhaul.... we share custody. Neither of us has primary custody. Thanks for your kind words.

Found out today from our 13 year old that her mom de-friended her on facebook. WHAT? The nerve.

I actually convinced our 13 year old a month ago when she decided to stop living with her mother every other week to NOT de-friend her mother on facebook. Now this?

My stb-xw is very childish in her actions.

I also obtained a copy of the police report today. Unfortunately for my stb-xw the officers were very accurate on their reports and it disputes what she told her attorney happened on 8/6. Her attorney actually made it sound like I assaulted my stb-xw as "her client" simply walked in thru the door and was physically pushed causing her to fall. My stb-xw's own statements to the officer are contrary to this. She stated she "pushed her way thru the doorway" in an attempt to get past me and slipped in doing so.


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## Help239

So what would a parent do if they had an opportunity to spend an hour with a child they haven't seen in about a month? Understanding that the choice was made by the child and based on some issues between them?

I would think that parent would want to LISTEN to the child and WORK THRU the issues and try to regain the TRUST and LOVE that was damaged.

Nope ....

My stb-xw spends the counseling session playing the victim. Pushing our daughter into corners and actually BLAMING her for some of the problems between them. Our daughter came out broken, in tears, and further jaded by her mothers actions.

I hope the counselor now understands what we're dealing with. Needless to say our daughter wants the next session to be between just her and the counselor.


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## turnera

Very sad. Keep communicating so she has a safe place to come to. Go to Daughters.com for help.


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## AFEH

Help239 said:


> My stb-xw spends the counseling session playing the victim. Pushing our daughter into corners and actually BLAMING her for some of the problems between them. Our daughter came out broken, in tears, and further jaded by her mothers actions.
> 
> I hope the counselor now understands what we're dealing with. Needless to say our daughter wants the next session to be between just her and the counselor.


I guess you already know this. Your stb-xw is well and truly into the role of the "Victim". It is now a part of her core being and she'll probably, more than likely stay that way for the rest of her life. Some people are like that and they're quite capable of making others' lives a misery. But only if they stay close to them.

If you don’t know about the victim personality it may help you to research it so you know what you’re in for in the future.

Bob


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## Help239

Thanks both of you. I will take a look. 

So sitting here working today I get a text from one of our kids telling me they're in the school office. This was at 230p and school let out at 157p. Apparently my stb-xw had class today and was running late picking them up. She eventually got there at 330p. One and a half hours late. Geez. 

And she wants to take them from me when I'm at work vs. a dependable nanny? No, I don't think so.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CodeNameBob

It is almost like you need to hire a P.I. to track her every move so you can present the facts to eh judge and mediator as proof to her lunacy.

Good luck. Kidsd are lucky the still have you and you fighting for them


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## turnera

That's really not a bad idea.


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## Help239

P.I. ..... maybe.

Right now I need to concentrate on keeping food on the table, the mortgage paid, and the stb-xw's attorney at bay. She's asking for more support.....and I still have close to 20k in attorney's fees to pay.


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## CodeNameBob

Here you on that, my X destroyed me finacially on top of emotionally. I feel like a college kid starting all over again.

Riddled with debt, renting instead of owning. But I know I am going to be in a better place and you will too.


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## turnera

If you can't afford a PI, ask some friends to follow her and take pictures.


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## Help239

I have concluded this week that she lied to the child mediator. She told her our daughter finishes her homework by bedtime at her place. Meanwhile I was honest and said she's up until 10-11p working hard and that this school was not working out. I was told I need better time management. Well, surprise surprise. All this week our daughter has stayed up until 11p and ONCE until 1am to finish her homework at her moms. I hope my stb-xw is happy with what she has done.


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## CodeNameBob

I like teh idea of friends helping you. I think anyone that knows what she is putting your family through would want to help. Good luck.

I just told a frien to start keeping a journal for his wifes actions, are you? I woul start recarding every action whether it is something she has said, done, or not done.

The first entry should be, my daughter confided in my her mother is not assisting her with her homework so she was up until 1am on Thursday, or whatever happened. Give it ote h mediator weekly or monthly because once confronted infront of you, your STBX will show her true colors when confronted. It is easy to lie when you have time to plan it out, but answer a question on something unexpected, i.e. your daughter saying she was until 1 am, your stbx will have a tell.


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## Help239

I keep track but it's never been used in court. Too easy to say he said/she said and the judge doesn't speak to the kids.

Three of the kids told me today their mom thinks I'm dating a friend of mine. This friend has two kids of her own and is engaged. We're friends only and I actually work out at the gym with her fiance. She was here at the house with the nanny the day our oldest decided to stay with me vs go with her mom. I figured having a few women in the house would help our daughter (vs guys). In any case, why does she care? Weird.


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## turnera

Because that ruins her 'have your cake and eat it too' mentality. You are no longer (possibly) sitting at home pining away for her, which has been feeding her ego. Which is why I always advise to get a life; show the wayward that you WILL move on if they don't come back. One of the most effective things I've seen, actually.


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## Help239

I may not have found someone else, but I am definitely moving on. Too much craziness and damage done - to me and the children. My main goal for the near future is to continue to care for the children and keep them safe and happy. If someone comes along, it will have to be AFTER the divorce is finalized before I will start a relationship. I will honor my vows until then. It wouldn't be fair to the other party or the children for that matter if I started something beforehand.


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## CodeNameBob

Help,

You are truly a good man, father, and class act. I know you will find someone when you are ready and he kids will turn out fine with you guiding them out of the forest.

I don't know why the judge wouldn't talk to the kids, this system is so screwed up, not talking to ones that need the most protection.

CNB


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## Help239

The system is flawed for sure. But I have faith that things will work out in the end.

Tonight the OM answered the phone at my stb-xw's new rental property 3x as I tried to call to say goodnight to the kids. She must be having a bad day to pull this BS again. When will she grow up?

Also, she postponed the court date AGAIN. When will she move on?


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## CodeNameBob

No, she is an assh0le, and assh0les are stuck in places, the ass talking Sh*t. Damn her! Damn the system!


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## Help239

Lol.....Bob.

Night before last I called between 8-830 as usual to say goodnightto the kids. No answer so I sent her an email and do you know what she said? That the kids ALWAYS go to bed betwen 8-830 and that they couldn't answer the phone because they were already asleep. The nerve.

Today she changed the child exchange location on me to a fast food joint. Fearing that she was setting me up I asked a friend to get there early to be a witness. Luckily nothing happened. Yet, in our email correspondence I asked her prior to the pick up to keep her distance and allow me to help our kids with their belongings to my car. She replied "I wanted to meet at a public place so you would keep your hands off me". Seriously?

I reminded her that the police report of the incident where she forced her way into my home in an attempt to strong arm our daughter into going with her shows clearly - in her own words - that she was not touched but slipped when she forced her way into the house.

Besides, I have not wanted to be anywhere near her for almost a year now. She has made her bed - now sleep in it. She needs to get back on her meds. Reality check!


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## turnera

There was a poster over at MB whose wife was like that. She kept calling the police and saying he was attacking her. So he started meeting her in a fast food parking lot that had surveillance cameras, in case she tried it again. He also turned on his voice recorder every time they exchanged kids. She KNEW this, and yet she STILL kept calling and making false reports! When she KNEW the cameras were recording! Nuts, I tell ya.


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## Help239

Yeah, I'm getting those Costco Qsee cameras installed. I have a feeling she's going to try to get into the house again before this divorce is over.


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## Brewster 59

turnera said:


> There was a poster over at MB whose wife was like that. She kept calling the police and saying he was attacking her. So he started meeting her in a fast food parking lot that had surveillance cameras, in case she tried it again. He also turned on his voice recorder every time they exchanged kids. She KNEW this, and yet she STILL kept calling and making false reports! When she KNEW the cameras were recording! Nuts, I tell ya.


I wonder if a person could sue on these grounds, sounds like deframation of character to me, and Im not an ambulance chaser but people who pull this kinda crap should punished.


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## CodeNameBob

Check the laws in you state, for in NV you were looking at passing a law that a person that knowingly falsely accuse a person of a crime, can be charged with that crime. I.e. assault.


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## Help239

Today was a torrent of emails - some wanting, others just lies and insults. One was "can we switch weekends?" followed by "make sure your support check is on time" and "you are a liar and you made me miss our daughters back to school night".

Honestly, I replied when I feel the need to correct the lies but I eventually asked her to stop harassing me while I was at work.

Oh, and the irony ..... "please stop using checks with both of our names on them. Shred them"

My reply? I cross your name off the checks and they are perfectly good checks. For someone who forged my signature on checks only in my name, you're one to talk.


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## Deejo

Gotta ask ... if it becomes apparent that she is actively (whether aware of it or not) committing crimes by her behavior and harassment, will you press charges?


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## AFEH

I came to see and believe that my wife was truly deluded. She'd imagined things and actually believed them. From my point of view she was lying to me. From her point of view she was telling the truth.

These things are very complicated. It does sound like your wife, like mine, has deluded herself.

There isn't anything you can do to help her. Just keep on protecting your self and your children.

Bob






Help239 said:


> Today was a torrent of emails - some wanting, others just lies and insults. One was "can we switch weekends?" followed by "make sure your support check is on time" and "you are a liar and you made me miss our daughters back to school night".
> 
> Honestly, I replied when I feel the need to correct the lies but I eventually asked her to stop harassing me while I was at work.
> 
> Oh, and the irony ..... "please stop using checks with both of our names on them. Shred them"
> 
> My reply? I cross your name off the checks and they are perfectly good checks. For someone who forged my signature on checks only in my name, you're one to talk.


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## Help239

Bob, I agree 100%. She keeps telling the children she's the victim and has done nothing wrong. Yet our oldest moved out of her "mom's house" (the boyfriend's house owned by his ex who rents to them - ewww, Jerry Springerish) because of her mother's actions (or lack thereof). She still blames me for everything. I have learned to ignore her rants.

I will always protect my children. If they are harmed, nothing will stop me from pursuing justice.

Deejo, I am SERIOUSLY considering pressing charges on the felony check forging. Problem is it's been 2 years and they will wonder why I didn't say anything beforehand. The bank has a 90 day period for these things and will not pursue the criminal unless charges are pressed by the victim.


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## CodeNameBob

Time to play dirty pool, she is not showing you or your children any respect, so stop showing her any in terms of protecting her from herself. If she is breaking the law make her face the music.

She will still play the victim, but at least you will have the law protecting you.

CNB


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## Skuba

I dont know if this helps at all, but I need to say it to someone. I was asking for advise here on what to do with my wife asking for space and moving into her parents house. All the advise I got said that space is no good, and that I needed to fight for her and not let her forget that I lover her and that Im going to change myself to be what she needs. I was told not to just say it but to show it. So I did, I let her stay at her parents for as long as she needed, which was about two weeks, but I made contact with her as much as I could, letting her know what I was doing for myself and for her, and didnt really give her the space she said she needed. Well, Big mistake, she said that it was over and there was nothing left at the end of the the two weeks. She said that she wanted time to think and I never gave her a chance to do so, so she just ended it and said she is going to get the paperwork as soon as she get the time from work. Worst conversation of my life, worst advise ever. Now, maybe she was just going to do that anyway, I dont know. But I do know that the way I handled the SPACE thing, didnt work for us. Best of luck to you. I hope you dont have to go through much more pain and confusion.


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## Help239

Skuba - I hear you. I hope your situation improves.

CNB - we'll see.

Today I did my part and took a co-parenting class. 4 hours. I learned some things and had to keep myself from doing what 1/2 of the class kept doing - playing the victim and giving the rest of the class an example of what their spouse is doing as a bad co-parent. 

For example, when the instructor asked how long you should wait to introduce a new significant other into your kids' lives......the answer was 1 year. Instantly hands shot up and out came the stories of cheating spouses taking their SOs to church, inviting them to school functions, PDAs in front of the kids, etc. Sure, I could've shared my gripes, but for what reason?

In the end I took away some things I could do better and prayed that my stb-xw would do the same when she takes the course.


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## VioletRazzle

You need to be with your children as much as you can. They are also confused and don't really know what is going on. Be cordial and respectful to the person who was your spouse. Let your children know that you love them. You will always be there for them. Let your soon to be ex know that you want to be part of the children's lives and that you will be cordial and respectful of her. I wish you the best. You and your children deserve the best.


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## Deejo

VioletRazzle said:


> You need to be with your children as much as you can. They are also confused and don't really know what is going on. Be cordial and respectful to the person who was your spouse. Let your children know that you love them. You will always be there for them. Let your soon to be ex know that you want to be part of the children's lives and that you will be cordial and respectful of her. I wish you the best. You and your children deserve the best.


:wtf:

Sorry ... haven't had coffee yet.


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## Help239

stb-xw signed our son up for basketball out of the blue. Just another example of her awesome co-parenting skills that she insists she has. I am obviously the problem as I do not communicate.......


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## Deejo

That is certainly what she is hoping. Don't take the bait. 

Out of curiosity, do you and the stbx have a common group of friends? Is there anyone on the planet willing to buy what she's selling?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Help239

Deejo - we had separate groups of friends when we met that became "common" friends. Interestingly enough the lines of loyalty have gone back to prior to us being a couple. That is, her friends "side" with her and mine listen to me but are neutral for the most part.

I think the most interesting part of this is that people she used to never want to associate with (and truthfully made fun of or joked about before) are now her best friends that she hangs out with. Her true friends don't really talk to her daily and try to stay out of it. I'm sure being introduced to the OM early on and being told they're "friends" was very telling to them. They're not stupid.


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## Help239

Kids come back home tomorrow !!  !!


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## turnera

Got plans?


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## Help239

Youngest daughter has a sleepover party tomorrow for a friend's birthday so we need to go shopping tonight for a gift.

Oldest daughter has a girl scout fundraiser tomorrow morning.

The rest of us will be headed into town tomorrow to have dinner with friends and their kids. We will be inviting the nanny as it was her birthday this past Tue and we're going to treat her to Disneyland.

Kids told me the OM is in the hospital for unknown reasons but that their mother left them alone in the house for 2 hours while she went to visit him this week. Who in their right mind would think a 12 year old should be burdened with the responsibility of watching her 10 and 7 year old siblings?


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## turnera

Not to take her side, but lots of 12 year olds babysit kids much younger than that.


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## notreadytoquit

Help239 said:


> Deejo - we had separate groups of friends when we met that became "common" friends. Interestingly enough the lines of loyalty have gone back to prior to us being a couple. That is, her friends "side" with her and mine listen to me but are neutral for the most part.
> 
> I think the most interesting part of this is that people she used to never want to associate with (and truthfully made fun of or joked about before) are now her best friends that she hangs out with. Her true friends don't really talk to her daily and try to stay out of it. I'm sure being introduced to the OM early on and being told they're "friends" was very telling to them. They're not stupid.


The same here. Some separate group of friends became common friends. When I disclosed his affair he became mad obviously but I don't think he completely knows or realizes how many people know. Some of those friends who were his first but then became common friends just unfriended him on Facebook. He has not communicated to too many of those friends. It's almost as if he is building new group of friends. The thing is most of his friends are in Canada and he is still in the US with his mistress. So in a way he cannot run into friends walking down the street. It is interesting that none of the friends would say anything to him. Its almost as if they are affraid. 

I told who I told and I am not bothering anymore. We are now divorced. Now, who those people tell about his affair and the real reason why we are divorced that I have no control over. But I am a huge believer that the truth will be out one day. From now it's all about me and my son.


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## Help239

T- I agree there are those who allow this behavior and it might work for them. In my opinion it is not the responsibility of our 12 year old to manage her siblings. Further, their mom apparently gave permission to our 10 year old to bake while she was out. 

Sure, everything is fine and easy while everyone is getting along and nothing bad happens. But what if they fight? What if our 10 year old had burned her hand on the oven? What then? No adults around and a 12 year old is left to stress about what to do.

Not ready - I hope you are doing well. Stay strong for your son.


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## notreadytoquit

Help239, do you find she has a hard time keeping her story about your marriage straight? To the few people he has told about the divorce he has given different reasons as if he can't keep the story straight. To one friend who is also H former coworker he told him that I could not get adjusted to living in CT and I was miserable and that's why we got divorced. But of course he never mentioned anything about his affair and this coworker of my H knows since April about his affair. He also knows the OW because he worked with her.

I agree with you about being upset for her leaving the kids alone. To me 12 year old is too young to be caring about other two younger kids. Anything could have happened. Just make sure you document all this in a journal. It may come handy one day.


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## Help239

Notready - yes, she can no longer kep track of all of her stories about when, why, what, and how. She has totally rewritten history. To hear her tell it, at least the last time I heard it about 11 months ago, the last 15 years have been a mistake. It's all about her happiness now. She deserves to be happy, right?

It amazes me how someone can decide to forsake the safety and happiness of their CHILDREN for their own selfish wants (not needs mind you). Part of being a parent is being selfless. She has forgotten this. 

I really don't care how many people she lies to or what version of the divorce story she tells. I have it straight in my head. That's the version I will remember.


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## notreadytoquit

That's what I tell people too. Everyone has heard the same story from me no matter how close of a friend they are. But him it is almost comical what he has told few people.


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## Help239

As usual, the child exchange today was not without incident. Emails started from my stb-xw about how I should not drop off the childrens items at her house. This even though they need some of the items for the weekend (larger items they cannot bring to school - pick up is at school). Also, considering there has NEVER been any incident when I pick up the kids (because I stay at the curb and do not approach the house) and 2 incidents where police were called when she picks up the kids - where does she get off being paranoid about me dropping off stuff for the children?

Of course the OM soon took over the emails being all "brave" and slinging profanity laced emails at me. The grammar is so bad I don't think he even finished high school. Regardless, I grow tired of these exchanges. Looks like the co-parenting classes are just a formality for my stb-xw.


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## Help239

So I went to our son's first basketball game today. The girls sat next to me and my stb-xw brought the OM. Way to go mom, thinking of our kids first as usual.


----------



## seeking sanity

Help - How long until you are divorced. Have you considered starting to date? I know you want to wait until the divorce is finalized, but man you need someone to treat you well.

Your ex is a awful person. You know she's going to do whatever insensitive, self-centered thing she wants to do. It's not like her behavior is a surprise to you.

I fear that the tone of your updates recently has become just documenting the ways she's stupid and insensitive. I worry that you are becoming bitter, and you're far too good a guy. I hope that doesn't happen. 

I'd love for you to find some avenues of hope and tenderness.


----------



## Notaclue

Help239 said:


> Notready - yes, she can no longer kep track of all of her stories about when, why, what, and how. She has totally rewritten history. To hear her tell it, at least the last time I heard it about 11 months ago, the last 15 years have been a mistake. It's all about her happiness now. She deserves to be happy, right?
> 
> It amazes me how someone can decide to forsake the safety and happiness of their CHILDREN for their own selfish wants (not needs mind you). Part of being a parent is being selfless. She has forgotten this.
> 
> I really don't care how many people she lies to or what version of the divorce story she tells. I have it straight in my head. That's the version I will remember.


Sounds like my ex, she deserves to be happy -so now she is going to re-marry to some guy she met on facebook and move 5or 6 states away. She is leaving my daughter who is absolutely distraught because my ex deserves to be happy and it's "all about her" now. The word selfless has no meaning to her but selfish does. 

The woman has taken to reinventing history one lie at a time and has told my daughter some whoppers. Problem is that a leopard will eventually show it's spots. My Daughter now knows who was lying and who was true. She now knows her mom wasn't truthful about the divorce and isn't telling the truth now. Sad lesson for the children but they will remember the true story even if your stb-ex can't or won't. They will be the historians of the truth and she can never escape that.


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## Help239

Notaclue - Your daughter is better off with you. Studies have shown that if even ONE parent takes the high road and provides a safe harbor for their children that they will grow up healthy (emotionally).

seeking sanity - I hear you. Admittedly I have used this site as a journal of sorts on occassion. Dating? The thought has crossed my mind but I have yet to act on anything.


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## Help239

Had a great night - went to coparenting class part B with 5 other couples. Hilarious, as every couple sat on opposite sides of the table.

Anyways, part of the class teached how to keep communication business like without being emotional or aggressive. I was able to get my stb-xw to agree to allow the CHILDREN only to answer the phone for goodnight calls at 745p every night. What does that mean for me? I never have to hear the OM answer her phone again. Of course, this is just a class and she may not follow the guideline, but who knows?


----------



## separatedmomof3

Help239 - I have spent the last two days reading about you and your family, it has been very informative for me and eye opening. I wish you and your family the best of luck. It looks to me like you have handled this horrible situation with class and you should be commended for that. 

Good luck to you in what ever your future holds!


----------



## Help239

Thanks separated. I appreciate your feedback.

Kids come home tomorrow!!!! 

A bit of bad luck as my car is in the shop and I lost 4 hours of work today but I'm going to take the train into the office tomorrow and bike the rest of the way. Darn car is 7 years old, at 130k miles and this fix is gonna cost me $450.

So far the last 3 nights I have ben able to get ahold of the kids to say goodnight without the OM playing middle man. However, her attorney is pushing the next court date hard and making a lot of accusations against me. Apparently I am not allowed to start my own business because she believes I did so to hide money from her client. I have nothing to hide but the bad news is she could sell that to the judge.

I'll be praying for a positive outsome to our next court date. This co-parenting class just seems to be a formality for her. She has no desire to setlle things out of court.


----------



## Uptown

> She has no desire to setlle things out of court.


Help, it is often said that untreated BPDers "are only interested in creating drama, not finding solutions." The drama seems to be so strongly desired because, due to their inability to control their emotions, they normally experience tides of intense emotions on a daily basis. They've grown so used to it that, absent the intensity, they easily become bored or distracted.

Another insightful saying is that untreated BPDers "are only interested in getting even, not getting well." Indeed, until they are willing to stop thinking of themselves as victims (i.e., stop trying to get even), it is impossible for them to get well because they will not take responsibility for their own actions. Help, have a great time with your kids today and this weekend!


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## turnera

If she is truly BPD, is that something you could bring up in court?


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## Uptown

turnera said:


> If she is truly BPD, is that something you could bring up in court?


Even if she has BPD at the diagnostic level, it is very unlikely Help could get her therapist to state as much -- for several reasons I've written about in other posts (the main one being that treatment of BPD rarely is covered by insurance so therapists call it something else). 

Moreover, even if Help gets over that hurdle, his attorney likely will advise him not to use the diagnosis in court because his W could beat him over the head with it. Namely, she could demand support not only for the kids but, on top of that, several hundred thousand dollars for ten years of therapy provided at a weekly basis -- none of which would be covered by insurance. But, yes, I agree Turnera that it is certainly worth discussing it with his attorney.


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## Help239

My attorney already knows about it - might ask for a 730 eval if it comes to that.

"until they are willing to stop thinking of themselves as victims (i.e., stop trying to get even), it is impossible for them to get well because they will not take responsibility for their own actions." 

- you sound like you've known her as long as I have. This is my stb-xw to the core.

Kids are home and settling in nicely! Time to go get snuggles and hugs while watching a movie with the little ones!!


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## turnera

Ah, I miss those days! Aladdin, Lion King, knew the songs by heart!


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## Help239

Had an hour long phone call with my attorney today prepping for court on Monday. How depressing. I pray I don't get royally screwed.


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## Deejo

If you get screwed, it is highly likely *I* will go on a rampage.

I admire your fortitude. There have been times that reading your circumstances has been difficult for me - and I'm not the one living them.

Sending hope and good thoughts your way.


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## Help239

Deejo - you made me laugh. I'm feeling better today. 

Trying to schedule a "business meeting" with my stb-xw for our coparenting class but she's not answering my emails. Our last class for partB is this Monday. Looks like it will be last minute if at all.

Kids are planning something with the nanny for my birthday. They are so funny. Rode bikes to the park and kicked the soccer ball around for "Daddy and me" time with one of my girls yesterday. It was awesome.


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## Help239

Once again, something as simple as dropping off items too big for the children to take to school (we pick up the kids every Friday from school when we exchange) ends up in drama. 

Last week my stb-xw drops off our sons basketball uniform on my front porch - no big deal. Tonight I drop off some craft supplies for school projects on her sidewalk. OM comes out and states I'm not welcome on their property - ever. Then he goes on to tell my children their Dad is breaking the law and isn't supposed to be doing this. Of course I subsequently receive half a dozen expletive laden emails from him. Kids were crying and complaining when I called to say goodnight.

Why?

Has my stb-xw learned NOTHING after a month of coparenting classes? Kids first. They need uniforms or school supplies, drop them off. Let your petty squabble go.


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## Affaircare

Help~

May I politely note that by dropping off "...some craft supplies for school projects on her sidewalk" you are continuing to dance the dance? 

So far the dance steps go like this:

She acts utterly consistently: 100% self-centered

You act INDIGNANT that she isn't considering the children

She responds to your indignation with blame and threats and drama

You claim "I was only doing it for the children!"

She behaves utterly consistently: 100% self-centered

You continue to engage with her expecting her to not behave selfishly.

She behaves selfishly again. 

You act all indignant that she's being selfish! 

She responds to your indignation with blame and threats and drama

You claim "I was only doing it for the children!"

Do you see the dance steps? And it is going on and on and on. Now Help, no matter what you do or what classes she ever takes, you are not going to be able to "make" her a selfless, considerate parent or person. She would have to choose that for herself. 

What you CAN do is stop dancing. Refuse to engage and change YOUR steps. If the kids are with her and need "...some craft supplies for school projects" she and OM are adults. Either they can make arrangements to get the craft supplies themselves -OR- they make the effort to contact you and come pick them up. 

The fact of the matter is that your not-soon-enough TBX is quite a piece of work! But at the same time, you keep engaging with her. If you'd like to truly end this and change that dynamic, then I would suggest that YOU change and end contact with her. She is the mother of the kids, so they are going to have her in their lives as long as they live. Teach them how to deal with her, and you stop engaging with her and get on with your life. Stop dancing.


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## AFEH

Help239 said:


> Once again, something as simple as dropping off items too big for the children to take to school (we pick up the kids every Friday from school when we exchange) ends up in drama.
> 
> Last week my stb-xw drops off our sons basketball uniform on my front porch - no big deal. Tonight I drop off some craft supplies for school projects on her sidewalk. OM comes out and states I'm not welcome on their property - ever. Then he goes on to tell my children their Dad is breaking the law and isn't supposed to be doing this. Of course I subsequently receive half a dozen expletive laden emails from him. Kids were crying and complaining when I called to say goodnight.
> 
> Why?
> 
> Has my stb-xw learned NOTHING after a month of coparenting classes? Kids first. They need uniforms or school supplies, drop them off. Let your petty squabble go.


It’s like a macabre dance.

Help239. You come over to me very much as a “humanist”. A “Big Man”. Deep as well. But with that as your starting position I think you are trying to understand something that is simply incomprehensible to you.

STBX’s, and TOM’s behaviour has absolutely nothing to do with who you are. Nothing at all. If she were married to someone else other than you, it would be that guy going through all this, not you. Of course the path this crisis has taken is unique because you are in it’s creation by the way you respond and the actions you take. I’m not saying it’s your fault at all. But your wife would have done the same things to another man.

STBX and TOM are two seriously dysfunctional people and while you are going through all of this you are somewhat a codependent and as such you are joining in the dance. It’s not at all surprising.

The big thing, the really big thing with all this is not to take it personally. It feels so personal because of all the negative emotions dysfunctional people generate deep inside of us. So you need some sort of “boundary” like “I will not respond to anything negative from STBX or TOM. I will just let that stuff pass me by”. And if you find some things you can’t let pass you by another boundary for you “This too will pass”.

Think on this Help. “There are no more “Whys”. Whys no longer matter. Because I can’t do anything about them. I am powerless as far as understanding or changing their behaviour is concerned”. That’s a boundary.

Bob


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## Help239

I take what both of you have said and understand "the dance". Understand that I am only participating in it due to a sense of responsibility. 

Yes, they can get the supplies too. But when the project spans weeks and they already put time and effort into it, I need to somehow get those projects to them for completion because they're due when the kids are with her. Otherwise, I'm accused of making them hate their mom because I didn't give her their projects. It's happened before. It's a catch 22.

I have no problem if they pick the items up from me. However, she has taken the position that she doesn't feel safe coming to my home - even to pick up items from the porch while I'm away.

So, I can have them pick up an I cannot drop off. Now what?

Further, it's hypocritical to drop off stuff at my door and not allow me to do the same. Wait, you won't come over to pick up but will to drop off? What?

I just want to be over the drama. Put the kids first.


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## seeking sanity

In practical terms, you may be best served by designating a neutral third party spot for drop off/transfer of items. Maybe the school, or a rented storage locker/something. It's a hassle but it seems whenever there is interaction between you and you ex/******* OM, it's bad for you. This has to take an emotional toll. Anything you can do to institute no contact with her would benefit your healing IMO.


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## seeking sanity

Another thought: How is the OM with your kids? Given his psycho attitude towards you, are they mistreated by him in anyway? Is this a point of leverage to gain full custody?

They got Al Capone on tax evasion. Is there another path to get these lunatics out of your life?


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## Affaircare

> I just want to be over the drama. Put the kids first.


I believe herein lies most of the issues. You want your not-soon-enough to-be-ex to be a good parent and think of her children before being self-centered. 

This is what YOU want. 

Now granted this is an ideal with which I think most sane people would agree--it is ideal to put the needs of your children ahead of your own needs or petty fights. A sane parent might SWALLOW their desire to strike out and hurt their ex for the best interests of the kids. However, your not-soon-enough to-be-ex is not sane, and she is absolutely, consistently self-centered. You may not like those facts, but they are the reality you have to work with. 

By single-mindedly focusing on what YOU want (for her to put the kids ahead of herself), in effect you are trying to "make" her do something. Help, I know that you know you can not "make" another person do or be anything! I also know that you know that you can not change her or "make" her be a better parent, but you *CAN* change yourself. 

So here is reality, Help:

Your STBXW is not sane
Your STBXW is 100% self-centered
Your STBXW will think of herself before the kids
Your STBXW will not be a good parent. 
Your STBXW will not put the children first. 

Now you can decide one of two courses:

1) You can continue as you are--trying to "make" her be a better parent and raging and howling when she's not...continue this dance and continue the vitriol and hate. By making this choice you will continue the harm to your children. 

2) You can change how YOU are--accept that she may never be put the kids first and stop trying to "make" her. Refuse to engage in the dance, and come up with new steps. Do new steps that are in-line with the man you are and the parent you are, whether she ever "gets it" or not. By making this choice you will demonstrate to your children how to "deal with" the woman who is their mother and will be in their lives as long as they live -AND- you will set yourself free from the hatred and spite. 

You can not change her, Help. She is not sane, and she is predictably selfish. She does not put the children first, and may never put them first. 

Now the issue is this. Are you going to continue enabling this dance? What Bob said is right on the money--this is not about you. Yes, your STBX and OM aim volleys of hurtful things at you, but if you transcend that, you can choose to not fire back. You can stop taking it personally, place a boundary around yourself that says "I choose to stop dancing" and "I choose to not include people in my life who are full of hate" and then look for alternatives to end contact. 

A third-party drop off site is a perfect suggestion. Seek out someone who not only would supervise the safe exchange of items such as the craft projects, but might also then be a witness to which partner is sane and thinking of the children...and which partner is not.

A sane parent will SWALLOW their desire to strike out and hurt their ex for the best interests of the kids.


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## Help239

I appreciate what all of you have said. I truly do. If you notice I had been practicing no contact for almost a year. What has changed? Co-parenting class, that's what. 

They say public exchanges hurt the kids.
They say put the kids before petty issues.
They say speak nothing bad about your co-parent to the kids.

I am simply trying to follow what they're teaching. I don't want to change her. I just wish SHE would also take the classes to heart.

Court is tomorrow. I will hope for the best but prepare for the worst.


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## Uptown

Help, we're all wishing the best for you and your kids in tomorrow's court hearing!


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## turnera

Good luck!


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## Help239

Just heard - court date pushed to Thursday 8:30a. Looks like I get a short reprieve. Thank you all for your good thoughts.


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## lobokies

all the best for you


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## CodeNameBob

Good luck, at some point the universe has to balance out good vs. evil...some point the good will win a battle. Thursday is the day, here's to small victories!!! Court telling her she is crazy!


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## notreadytoquit

Good luck Help and please keep us posted.


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## Help239

Thanks everyone. Well we had our business meeting (mediated by the PhD) before class. She took every opportunity to twist what I wanted to discuss. Example, polite request #1: Can we agree to allow our children the use of their cell phones to contact either of us if needed? Answer: I don't believe young children should have cell phones. Why does this chap my hide? She gave our 2 youngest daughters her old cell phones 2 years ago. Yeah, smooth.

I didn't bring it up. I just politely agreed to disagree. Anyways, the hour long meeting went pretty much that way. Then there was an hour break before this last class. I spent it working online and she spent it doing class homework from the last 2 weeks.

I am going to suggest to the court on Thur that we dispense with part C and save time and money because BOTH of us got so much out of Parts A and B that we don't need part C. Yes, that's sarcasm.


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## Help239

For the 2nd time in about a month she has sent the OM to my residence to drop off items for the children. Nothing like getting cussed out by a jerk on my own front lawn.


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## Brewster 59

So Help, you like the high road and you have kids, screw the OM let him say anything he wants. Dont acknowledge anything he says, dont have any exchange with him at all. Any possibility of having the nanny pick up the kids and drop them off? Isnt there anyway to have a neutral party drop the kids between the two parents?


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## turnera

Heck, I'd be having the video camera ready, or on remote control, when he comes.


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## Deejo

Obviously more button pushing. The guy is obviously a douche-bag for even thinking it's reasonable that he does this at your psycho-stbx's request.

She is purposely setting up a confrontation - and he's game.

No doubt you can put a stop to that via language from your attorney, but yet again, more money to deal with more bullsh!t.


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## turnera

Lots of people will back down when they know they're being filmed.


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## Help239

I am having a camera system installed soon and he will get his one day. Ignore my warnings about coming onto my property ...... time to shop for a taser. Bzzzzt!!


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## Deejo

Go for the nuts ...

or get a Rotweiller ... and still go for the nuts.


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## Help239

I would if he had any...lol.

Saw my stb-xw in court the other day. WOW - she had really dark circles under her eyes. I've never seen her this bad in 15 years. Looked to be having a hard time. I felt bad for her. But she made her choice .....


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## Deejo

Do you really feel bad for her? Do you still have the emotional response of sympathy for her condition? Just curious.

I did, for a long time. A very long time. Those feelings kept compelling me to do right by her. Don't know if I can pinpoint exactly when, but I simply don't have those feelings anymore. They weren't replaced by spite or hostility, just a recognition that the decisions she makes no longer have anything to do with me - even when she tries to make them about me.

And again, my ex and I had nothing even remotely close to the kind of antipathy your spouse has for you.


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## Help239

Deejo,

I feel sad for her like I would for anyone who looks like they're having a hard time. I no longer have any sort of emotional connection to her at all. 

Like you I'm not sure when I turn that corner but I can honestly say I can clearly delineate her actions and my reactions. That is, I know she isn't happy and is just trying to pour salt on the wound. Problem is, the wound is closed and the salt isn't having the effect she wants it to have. This just drives her to continue to do things that cause conflict. When possible, I choose to not allow her actions to dictate an emotional response.

It's not about her and it's not about me. It's about what's best for our children. I've known that for awhile now. Just waiting for her to catch up if she ever does. Good news is according to the co-parenting instructor that if at least ONE parent takes the high road and has low conflict in their home, the kids will be just fine.


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## Help239

Spending my birthday with the kids. Made fruit crepes for breakfast and now carving our pumpkins


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## turnera

Happy birthday!


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## Uptown

Happy birthday, Help!


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## Help239

Thanks for the birthday wishes. Kids and I had a blast. Of course, my stb-xw had to throw in some drama.

First a text: "Happy birthday to you. Love ya " - uh, wth?
Then she sends the OM -only- to pick the kids up after telling me she was picking them up.

Yeah, it figures. But I didn't bite. She can continue to act childish and be hurtful but since I am no longer emotionally invested it just reinforces the fact that she is off her rocker.


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## turnera

lol


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## notreadytoquit

she told you "love ya" in the text? OMG she is nuts


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## Help239

lol ... yep.


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## Help239

Just got an email from the counselor who has been listening to our 14 year old for 3 months (she has been living with me exclusively for that time). Anyways, the counselor wants to meet with just me and my stb-xw (without our daughter).

Advice?


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## turnera

I would do anything my child's advocate says to do.


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## notreadytoquit

notreadytoquit said:


> she told you "love ya" in the text? OMG she is nuts


I would forward that text to the OM and just sit back and watch the fireworks


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## seeking sanity

Meet with the councellor and listen to what she has to say, but I wouldn't commit to anything without taking time to think it through.


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## Help239

turnera - I'll wait to see what the recommendation is. I need to know it's well founded (in the child's best interest) and not an attempt to make everyone happy before I agree to anything.

notready - Yeah, but keep in mind it could have been sent by the OM as my stb-xw readily shares her cell phone and email with him.

seeking sanity - I agree 100%.


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## turnera

Oh, no, I meant about meeting. Not changing your life, lol.


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## seeking sanity

Hey Help, the other thing to keep in mind is that what is in YOUR best interest is also in your child's best interest. If the recommendations require you to do something that makes you crazy in some misguided attempt to make it better for the kids, they are going to feel your craziness/anger/pain. A healthy, happy dad goes a long way to making for healthy, happy kids.

Get this woman out of your life. You and your feelings matter too.


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## Help239

turnera - oh ... duh! THANKS!

seeking sanity - wow, I never thought of it that way. Thanks for that. 

The counselor seems to want to meet to clarify to both parties that this choice is our daughters alone. She also wants to define how each side as handled the decision. I'm all ears.


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## Help239

Session went as expected. I kept my cool and my stb-xw went ballistic. Sure she showed up 15 minutes late and was too afraid to be in the waiting room with me (that act didn't fool anybody). Sure the first 20 minutes were spent with her sobbing. But, the last 30 minutes where she forgot to "act" and let her real self shine through - that was priceless.

The counselor now has a better idea of what the kids go through while they are with their mother. Every time I calmly communicated how our 14 year old perceives her mother's actions, it was met with defiance and anger. She simply would not listen to anything and took everything as an attack. I even stated beforehand that what I am about to say is not meant as criticism but simply shared as information between co-parents. 

During one statement she even made light out of our co-parenting classes that we took last month. Crystal clear now that she thought it was a joke.

At one point the counselor stated "I'm beginning to see that what HE is stating is the case.....that you are not willing to communicate for the sake of the children". To which she replied "I do not want to communicate with him at all". Counselor replied "Even if it has to do with the children's feelings and concerns".

"YES" - wow, can it get any clearer than that?

We moved on to speak about the other kids and I expressed some concerns about their statment about 1-on-1 time at their mom's house. During co-parenting class we learned that individualized attention speaks volumes to each child. Just something simple like a walk, going to the park, playing a board game, etc. Anyways, they stated they had not had that time in the last month with her. That's all, no finger pointing, just a concern.

Her initial reply was that they went to a school function - a fair - but then she realized that didn't qualify because they were all there (and so was the OM). So she changed it to "I'm too busy with school and other things" and then again to "our individual time is when I read them books for bed"......... 

First off the kids always ask me when we read goodnight stories why mom doesn't do it at her house - I always tell them that's something they need to ask their mom. Second, "too busy"? "TOO BUSY" for your children? Get real. How about the fact that they wait for you to read books and fall asleep disappointed. How about the fact that when they go looking for you to see why you never came back and they see you with OM or on facebook - that they feel INSIGNIFICANT.

HOW ABOUT LISTENING TO OUR KIDS AND PUTTING THEM FIRST?

You know, I left the session deflated but I am proud of myself for keeping my cool. She will not change and I have already stopped investing myself emotionally in her and her actions. The kids unfortunately feel the pain but it's not up to me to disparage their mother - I just ask them to take it up with her directly.

The sad part? They say they do and she ignores them.

So sad.


----------



## seeking sanity

Hey Help, that sucks, but good that you held your cool. 

My prediction is that over time, as the kids each get old enough to make their own choices, each will decide to be with you full time. They will slowly, unconsciously alienate their mother until she is a marginal figure in their lives. As adults they will view you as a strong, loving father, and thank you being there. Their mother will be a non-entity in their lives.

It's so sad.

Keep doing what you are doing. As you finish the divorce and start to seek out another partner, be very mindful that you don't unconsciously seek out another unstable woman. 

You are doing amazing and you a quality guy.


----------



## CodeNameBob

Help,

You are a saint!!!! The calss and dignity that you show in her presences is utterly amazing. Her behavior would have me flipping out in the class, counselling sessions, and everywhere else for that matter.

Your kids are lucky to have you, as long as you stay the rock they will be fine.

Wish you all the best.

CNB:smthumbup:


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## Help239

Thanks SS - I appreciate that. Our 10 year old actually said that to me a few months back. She stated "soon (12 year old sister's name here) will be 13 and will want to go live wth you like (enter 14 year old sister's name here) and I will be alone here with (enter 7 year old brother's name here)". Broke my heart.

CNB - Thanks a bunch. My sister and father came over today for a day with the kiddos while I spent some time picking up used formal dining room and living room furniture with a good buddy of mine. Aren't true friends awesome? Now I'm ready for Thanksgiving and Christmas and the kids can stop playing in the empty room (my stb-xw took away the furniture when she moved out with the OM in Jan). Thank goodness there are still nice and giving people in this world.


----------



## Help239

Today I received another text from my stb-xw :

"Are we past the point of no return?"

WTH? Are you kidding me? That's obviously a rhetorical question.


----------



## turnera

Maybe she was drunk...


----------



## CodeNameBob

She is out of her mind...reality is kicking in...her behavior is going to have her as a lonely old maid, and she is starting to see it.

I say keep pushing forward as quickly as possible, her ship is sinking fast!


----------



## Deejo

Answer: "Absolutely not. You can give me full custody of the kids anytime."


----------



## MEM2020

Help,
How did you respond?




Help239 said:


> Today I received another text from my stb-xw :
> 
> "Are we past the point of no return?"
> 
> WTH? Are you kidding me? That's obviously a rhetorical question.


----------



## Help239

You all crack me up.

How did I reply? I asked "what are you talking about?" because I wanted clarification as to her state of mind. She never replied so therefore I concluded she was out of her mind.


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## turnera

lol, you just got drunk-texted.


----------



## JennyO

Hey Help-
Sorry it's tough. I worked in the Family Law field of law for many years and this stuff is just always sad. I'm a beilever that the punishment should fit the crime and things just aren't stacking up...sounds like there's another man (ouch, sorry) and the family thing is the excuse. Are you tough enough to let her get it out of her system and take her back? If you are then you need to make a decision about your family. I don't know why she doesn't like them but you need to make a stand for HER. You are married and you have your own family, that includes her. If she sees that you are willing to go to bat for her and stay away from them, she may go to bat for the marriage. If she just really wants out, there's nothing you can do. Divorce Recovery Workshops sometimes have places for the kids to go in groups of their peers to talk things out and vent their feelings which they are so good about covering up.

Best of luck-


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## Help239

Hi Jenny -

You're about a year behind, this has gone WAY past the point of no return. I just want it to be over and I will NOT allow her to hurt the children any longer with her childish antics and selfish actions while they are with me.


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## Help239

Woo hoo! AWESOME Thanksgiving. Had an absolute BLAST preparing the food with the kids. They are SO smart and wonderful and loved being involved with the preparation. Turkey, pilgrim pies, cream corn, yams, green bean casserole, custard, apple pie, pumpkin pie, tree bark candy, red velvet cupcakes, cheesy potatoes, etc.

Invited my parents, sisters, and friends too. Had one friend who hasn't seen his family in almost 6 months (waiting for his visa and they are overseas) and was glad to see him get his mind off of missing them. My parents and sisters had a great time. Used to be like pulling teeth to get my stb-xw to allow them to come over for the holidays. No reason, just didn't want people in "her space".

The irony? She made it a point to tell the kids when she called to say goodnight that she had the OM, his sister and parents over amd were having a feast. I hope she had a good thanksgiving. Just strange to see the change in her but not surprised. She is not the person I knew.


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## turnera

Wow. Imagine how the kids felt hearing that.

Ugh.


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## Help239

Tell me about it. 

Well, the kiddos got to spend an extra night with me  Apparently their mother had "plans" Saturday night and actually gave me first right of refusal. As surprised as I was that she asked (of course I would take the kids if she couldn't) I was quickly brought down to earth when one of them told me why mommy couldn't watch them - she had a girls night out with an old high school girlfriend.

Far be it for me to complain about an extra night with my kids but she just keeps putting them second - like she couldn't find the time to go hang with her friend last week when I had the kids. Completely lost her marbles she has.


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## Help239

Called the kiddos to say goodnight - no answer. Turns out mom's at bunco and the OM was tasked with watching the kids. What's wrong with that? Well, she will be hanging with her friends for more than 4 hours and is supposed to give me first right of refusal. According to the kids (when they called me back) she was going to call me but her mind was changed by the OM. Wonderful. Just proves to me she's bonkers and continues to put the kids second to herself.


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## turnera

Make sure it's documented!


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## Help239

I am. 

Today she emailed me asking to stop by the house and "get half of the Christmas ornaments". First, due to the fact that she desecrated it by having another man in the home, her "stop by" priviledges have been revoked and will not be reinstated. Second, as if the dozens of collectible xmas pieces you took weren't enough for your new place (enough to make someone ask if we bought the whole store a few years back) - you have to ask about the ornaments? DENIED. Go to Walmart and enjoy your shopping experience with the OM.


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## Help239

Wow, early Christmas present yesterday.....got a copy of her rental agreement via subpoena. Details, details......


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## Deejo

So when does this nightmare draw to a conclusion? I mean from the perspective that you are actually divorced? I don't doubt that the nightmare or trips to the courthouse will continue beyond that point.

I mean do you have a date, or is it all still caught up in stupid lawyering?


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## Help239

She has our college aged daughter convinced I'm dragging it out and keep taking her to court. The truth is the other way around. Date will be set in January thank goodness.

Karma is paying a visit. Some people just can't help themselves.


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## danfig

What happened Help239? Where did you go?


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## Help239

I've been working (gotta pay the bills), living life, working on myself and trying to be indifferent to my ex.......

Last month she sent me a link to the Taylor Swift "Back To December" video. Darn thing reads like my life since Dec 2009. First correspondence with her in many, many months.

Here we are on the eve of our trial date and now she wants to reconcile? I am armed with the truth and if exposed, she will get nothing (no financial support) and quite possibly be relegated to only seeing the kids on weekends because she won't be able to provide a stable environment for them. She doesn't know what I have against her.

So why now? And, why am I even considering hearing her out? Because I remember the person I met and built a life with 15 years ago - and even though she has ripped my heart to pieces - she's still in there somewhere. True to my vows, I have not been unfaithful during this ordeal. She cannot say the same, but she appears to be truly remorseful and beside herself for the pain she has caused the family.

Should we proceed down the road to recovery? I will only do so if the conditions are documented. That is, no financial support and the child custody needs to be ironed out. And, if after many months of reflection and self-improvement she is invited back into our home - we will see what happens. Until then, it's just words.


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## Jellybeans

Only you can decide whether to reconcile or not but either way you need to tell her what YOU need and what would be required if there is a reconciliation (start out with NO CONTACT with the other dude).


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## seeking sanity

Help, just protect yourself. Good luck.


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## Jellybeans

Is she living with OM? What's going on with that situation? You should save all those "take me back" texts. I can't believe that idiot had the gall to send you pics of him kissing your W. Total scum bucket.


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## notreadytoquit

OMG, I can't believe I am reading this. Help239, are you talking about the same wife who put you through all those ordeals that you don't even see on Jerry Springer.

One word, protect yourself and your kids and if you choose to go down reconcilliation road make sure the OM is completely out of the picture(preferrably out of the country .

Did she tell you what changed her mind? How she snapped out of it?


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## MEM2020

OK - here goes. 

Recon is actually possible. It is. BUT and this is a HUGE and I mean GIANT but. You need to make her work for it. And the reason for that my friend is actually shockingly simple. If you make it relatively easy for her to return, she is going to take that to mean that you think you aren't worthy of being treated very well. Sorry but that is how SHE will see it. 

That said - if it was me I would complete the divorce at this point. And then let her know if she wants to try dating you and she wants to try to re-earn your trust and your love, you are open to that. But the divorce says "You can't cheat, and then push the affair in my face - and make false accusations to the police - and manipulate the other man into answering your phone so I have to hear his voice - when all I want is to speak with the kids. You can't do all that and then just say - Ooops - sorry. 

My guess. Things with the OM went south and now she is about to face some real financial stress. Let her deal with that for a while or she will come back the same way she walked out. Feeling no respect for you what so ever. 





Help239 said:


> I've been working (gotta pay the bills), living life, working on myself and trying to be indifferent to my ex.......
> 
> Last month she sent me a link to the Taylor Swift "Back To December" video. Darn thing reads like my life since Dec 2009. First correspondence with her in many, many months.
> 
> Here we are on the eve of our trial date and now she wants to reconcile? I am armed with the truth and if exposed, she will get nothing (no financial support) and quite possibly be relegated to only seeing the kids on weekends because she won't be able to provide a stable environment for them. She doesn't know what I have against her.
> 
> So why now? And, why am I even considering hearing her out? Because I remember the person I met and built a life with 15 years ago - and even though she has ripped my heart to pieces - she's still in there somewhere. True to my vows, I have not been unfaithful during this ordeal. She cannot say the same, but she appears to be truly remorseful and beside herself for the pain she has caused the family.
> 
> Should we proceed down the road to recovery? I will only do so if the conditions are documented. That is, no financial support and the child custody needs to be ironed out. And, if after many months of reflection and self-improvement she is invited back into our home - we will see what happens. Until then, it's just words.


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## turnera

I agree. Complete the divorce. If you do reconcile, make sure you have a prenup.


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## CodeNameBob

I agree with them. Cut her loose and make her work her way back into you life. You can stay faithful to your vows after the divorce, if so desire. Don't let your love of the past destroy your future!


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## Help239

In order to save cost on going to court, I have asked my attorney to draft a stipulation for judgement. This will be sent to her attorney and if signed, will become finalized without the additional cost of going to court. I am not pulling any punches financially and her willingness to accept the terms will go a long way in proving she's serious about working on reconciliation. Basically, ending spousal support entirely due to the cohabitation since 1-1-10 and this would carry forward even if we separate again. Retroactively calculating my overpaying support since 8/10 (the last time we were in court). Although I don't plan on seeing any of this money it can be used in the future towards negating any monies she thinks she's due. She will basically be agreeing to the stipulation and what is stated (without me providing the proof that I have accumulated). 

With the lowered support she cannot afford the rent on the huge house she was sharing with the loser. She will be moving into an apartment and I will have the kids during the week with her seeing them on weekends. She will be trusting that I do not take her to court to modify child custody. She will be working on herself and repairing the damage done between herself, the kids, and me. This will take months before I even consider allowing her back into our home. And, if she falters during this time we will proceed with finalizing the divorce. In any case, this puts me in a better position and protects myself and the kids.

As far as the loser is concerned, I hear there's a repo company looking to tow his SUV. He's behind on payments. I might just have to give them a call and be present when they take it to see the look on his sorry face.

Oh, and where is he living now that he can't mooch off of others? With his Dad....I bet his room is just like he left it a year ago.


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## outinthecold

Move on with your life, do something good for yourself, forget her, forget her guy.

I know it seems like thats all there is right now but you have your own problems, your own needs, your own wants.

A good phrase to remember however corney it is, "Revenge is a dish best served cold"

She will be punished enough for the rest of her life. The children will ignore her, disrespect her, be silent around her, refuse her gifts, refuse her affection, refuse her Love. Through all of this, your children need her. You know this, they need the love and attention of both parents. Gasoline on a burning fire is redundant.

I am living thru it right now. The X left for another guy, the kids live with me, I pay money to her, I never never never say a word about her. I try to make it as easy as possible for everyone.

My friend remember just this - "Love Lives Free of Hate"


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## turnera

I think that's about as good an outcome as you could have hoped for.


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## MEM2020

*Financial stability a very sharp two sided blade*

Help,
I'm afraid you are going to have to do something very difficult in the near future. 
1. If you try to reconcile - you need to completely change the dynamic with your W. Her affair was just that. But the utter disrespect she showed in conducting it reflects on you being WAY too nice and too accommodating during your marriage. 

I often talk about spouses having a "healthy fear" of each other. This isn't a physical thing at all. Purely behavioral. If you don't fix that problem - you will have a repeat of the previous cycle. 

2. You are going to have to discern whether your W really wants to be with you, or if instead she simply wants to avoid financial stress. Don't kid yourself, financial stress can be a huge motivator. 

IMO - you are still way too trusting, too forgiving, etc. And while in theory that makes you the better person, in practice she will perceive that as weakness. I pasted a post I recently made in another thread directly below. You might want to think about this long and hard. A quick recon - that is financially motivated on her part - will not last and will only put your kids through another ugly roller coaster. 


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Deejo, 
This thread - and your comment has been incredibly illuminating to me. 

It caused me to ask myself a question. 

Is my W a controlling beitch intent on emotionally castrating me and achieving total dominion over our house?
OR
Is my W an honest, fair, intelligent, hilariously funny, considerate, loving person who is ALSO rather aggressive in mostly a very positive manner with the exception of some moderate, but manageable boundary issues? (sorry for the run on sentence)

It sure seems like the answer has absolutely nothing to do with her and EVERYTHING to do with me. And so instead of asking what SHE is, perhaps better to ask what "I" am. 

Am I the strong man she married, who is still striving to reach his full potential and full of positive energy? Or am I the passive / aggressive, conflict avoidant man that I could all too easily turn into? 

At the level of fusion she and I have achieved - the answer to my question IS the answer to her question. 





Help239 said:


> In order to save cost on going to court, I have asked my attorney to draft a stipulation for judgement. This will be sent to her attorney and if signed, will become finalized without the additional cost of going to court. I am not pulling any punches financially and her willingness to accept the terms will go a long way in proving she's serious about working on reconciliation. Basically, ending spousal support entirely due to the cohabitation since 1-1-10 and this would carry forward even if we separate again. Retroactively calculating my overpaying support since 8/10 (the last time we were in court). Although I don't plan on seeing any of this money it can be used in the future towards negating any monies she thinks she's due. She will basically be agreeing to the stipulation and what is stated (without me providing the proof that I have accumulated).
> 
> With the lowered support she cannot afford the rent on the huge house she was sharing with the loser. She will be moving into an apartment and I will have the kids during the week with her seeing them on weekends. She will be trusting that I do not take her to court to modify child custody. She will be working on herself and repairing the damage done between herself, the kids, and me. This will take months before I even consider allowing her back into our home. And, if she falters during this time we will proceed with finalizing the divorce. In any case, this puts me in a better position and protects myself and the kids.
> 
> As far as the loser is concerned, I hear there's a repo company looking to tow his SUV. He's behind on payments. I might just have to give them a call and be present when they take it to see the look on his sorry face.
> 
> Oh, and where is he living now that he can't mooch off of others? With his Dad....I bet his room is just like he left it a year ago.


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## Help239

Thanks to all for your input. I went for broke. I asked her to sign off on no spousal support forever - based on her lies of the past 1+ years and me paying support to her thru 2010 even though she LIED about cohabitating which is a disqualifying factor for alimony. So, she owes me like 13k in back support and I don't want to pay her another dime. Child support - I will pay what I am required to.

My logic? If you really want to reconcile and don't care about the money or "things" then why worry about spousal support? Show me you mean what you say. She answered with a bunch of 
"what ifs" and then got mad and started accusing me of being the reason why our oldest child hasn't spoken or lived with her for 6 months.

So she didn't sign it and now I need to spend another 2k to go to court tomorrow. Wonderful. I told her to have a nice life. I have all the proof I need to put her away.


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## Crankshaw

outinthecold said:


> I am living thru it right now. The X left for another guy, the kids live with me, I pay money to her, I never never never say a word about her. I try to make it as easy as possible for everyone.


why do you pay money to her ???


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## Help239

So, the judge was so pissed my ex lied on her court documents dating waaaayyyy back to 1-1-10 that she handed her her arse. I now get support payments. And, she owes me for overpayment of support for the last 15 months. And, she has to pay the 2500 bill for my attorney today.

Nice guys don't always finish last I guess. I gave her a chance to sign the stipulation yesterday and now I bet she wishes she had.


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## MEM2020

Help,
Is your divorce finalized?



Help239 said:


> So, the judge was so pissed my ex lied on her court documents dating waaaayyyy back to 1-1-10 that she handed her her arse. I now get support payments. And, she owes me for overpayment of support for the last 15 months. And, she has to pay the 2500 bill for my attorney today.
> 
> Nice guys don't always finish last I guess. I gave her a chance to sign the stipulation yesterday and now I bet she wishes she had.


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## turnera

Wow! Way to go!


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## Deejo

Don't think I've ever been as happy over hearing about such a sh!tty outcome.

I know this has been a very long, and very painful ride. I sincerely hope the ride is over.


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## Jellybeans

Help239 said:


> So, the judge was so pissed my ex lied on her court documents dating waaaayyyy back to 1-1-10 that she handed her her arse. I now get support payments. And, she owes me for overpayment of support for the last 15 months. And, she has to pay the 2500 bill for my attorney today.
> 
> Nice guys don't always finish last I guess. I gave her a chance to sign the stipulation yesterday and now I bet she wishes she had.


That's awesome. Congrats!


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## Uptown

Congratulations, Help!!! I am very happy for you.


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## CodeNameBob

Congrats, there is a god! Your case can give everyone hope that having class and a good heart doesn't get you completely, f**ked by the system or the life!

Awesome news!!!!!


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## Help239

Thanks everyone. No, my divorce isn't finalized yet but this latest judgement is on record so I now have support in that respect from future court sessions. Last thing to do is set a date for trial and hash out property and money.

The house is in my name and she left on her own power. I have no money and a mountain of debt due to the last year of litigation. She's welcome to any of the debt especially since legally half of it is hers to begin with. I have been making ALL payments and she has contributed $0 to community debt.

She will either fall back into the losers' arms after this defeat or double her efforts to win the kids back. We shall see what her true intentions are.


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## CodeNameBob

Keep the pressure on her. Don't let her off the hook on anything. I forgave my X of all debts, wish I never would have, put her through grad school, and now am paying for all her mistakes. Don't let you love for her allow that to happen to you.


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## Brewster 59

Holy crap I think I almost had a heart attack when you said you would even consider reconcillation. Im glad to hear that didnt happen and that is was more or less a test of her motivations. 

If you had agreed to the possibility of reconcillation I would have thought you have lost your mental facilitys and need to read your entire post to refresh how evil your x has become.

Congrats that this is about over, stick it to the biatch and show no mercy on the financial aspects, remember all the cruel things she has done to you and the children. The frivoulouse court appearnces, the mind games.

Actually its not about revenge but about being as financially secure for the childrens sake, raising kids isnt cheap, college is not cheap. This woman fraudently stole money from you and should be forced to pay.

Good luck to you and your children, and may the X get what she has comming to her!


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## peace

My god! I have spent several hours reading through this thread. I applaud you for what you have stood for, she deserves nothing. I will be going through the same thing soon, and have learned a great deel from this thread. God bless you, and and god bless all the support you have received on this thread.


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## Help239

I think I need to read my own thread again. Why do I feel bad about what has happened to her in court? I thought I was past all of this......

Today is her 1st support payment and the money is coming from her grandparents. I will be setting the funds aside for the kids education or to return to them in the future.

It's not guilt, I have done nothing wrong. So wth?


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## Affaircare

I know exactly what it is. You are watching someone you love (or at minimum "care about") have to experience the consequences of their choices...and she made choices that are harmful to HER. So on the one hand you do care and would not wish this on your worst enemy. On the other hand, you protected her and covered up after her HORRIBLE choices for so long that now they are catching up with her and even society (via the courts) now says that how she has acted is inappropriate. 

It's hard to let her deal with the consequences of her choices. Some part of you that used to care for her would like to be able to mop up the mess or "take care of it for her" (that's the OLD Help239) but now the some part of you now knows that the old dance of her behaving badly and you "letting her get away with it" is not healthy. 

And yet still the fact is she is suffering. Her own choices put her there though and she now has a lot of life lessons to learn the hard way when all along there were folks who would have helped. They are pretty much all gone now and she's going to hurt--that's a fact. And it's hard to sit back and watch another person suffer. 

So I say it reflects some good character in you that you are still caring enough to not want another "fellow human" to suffer...and yet if you reduce her suffering in any way I will personally come through the monitory and :2gunsfiring_v1: NO RESCUING!! She'll learn faster this way. Let her.


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## peacefully

Wow. Help, what a ride!
I am glad that she showed her true colors before the court case. She values you as a provider, but not as a husband- that is evident in her actions.
Financial security can be a be motivator for reconciliation for women, it's a shame. 
I am glad that the rules are set, and that she won't be able to take advantage of you anymore.


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## Help239

Thanks for keeping me in line everyone and for your support. Affaircare - thanks and you made me laugh. I am helping - but only where the kids are involved (as I have always). I have made it clear to her that she needs to make her own decisions and take her own actions.


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## Help239

So I find out the ABS brake light went on in her car yesterday and her brakes would lock up randomly. Did I get a call? Did she reach out for help and take the car to a local shop?

Nope, she calls the dumbass supposedly ex-boyfriend who takes her car 30 miles away, and then personally delivers it to her while she has the kids at an expensive restaurant for dinner. Of course she was careful to lie to the children and told them the dealership was delivering the car while they ate. Wow - wonderful service this dealership 30 miles away provides!!

Lol....let's get real. I called her on it this morning when we met so I could give her something for the kids after they were dropped off at school. "I must have missed the small print in the reconciliation steps to regaining the trust of your spouse" I said. "Absolutely NO contact - EXCEPT in the CASE your mechanic ex-boyfriend can provide you with awesome brake service". I ended it with a big "F U, I will be proceeding with the divorce".

Amazing how stupid people can be. Even as everything is on the line. I'm sorry......WAS on the line.


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## turnera

Wow. So sorry.


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## Uptown

Sorry, Help. Well, after she lied to the judge, at least she is being consistent with that same type of behavior.


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## Help239

One month later and she's still mad as hell - texts me to say she is alone, penniless and will soon be homeless. Well, aren't those all results of HER choices? I keep getting the feeling she wants me to come in and save the day but I don't feel like I have a reason to anymore. She of course still blames me for EVERYTHING because I "took her to court and took everything" away from her. 

Kids and I did take her to a Mother's Day brunch - even our teenager who has been living with me exclusively since last Aug was in attendance.

I'm just so tired of hearing the "victim story" and waiting for her to "get it" and make amends. Any thoughts?


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## turnera

Give up.

She has likely been using the victim card since she was about 3 years old, when she learned it worked. From that point, she learned over and over that SHE didn't have to exert herself, and she became a User. That will never change.


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## Uptown

Help, I agree with Turnera. You are doing very well, handling everything much better than I ever did. And your buying that woman brunch once a year is very generous.


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## Help239

Thanks to both of you for your replies. 

Today was our wedding anniversary so I decided to take her to dinner to set the record straight. I got a nanny for the kids and then took her to a nice restaurant. Right off the bat I told her the reason for the dinner. Although this used to be a special day, I was just being cordial and wanted both of us to simply "say it like it is" and decide our next course of action. She agreed.

There were no cards, no presents, no flowers. Neither one of us even said "happy anniversary" to the other. As a matter of fact, I was thinking about Mother's Day when I decided to get her a card and found myself UNABLE to find a card that expressed the truth about her in ANY way.

Anyways, we both started by saying we were tired of being in "limbo" and not knowing which direction we were heading. The similarities ended there. I told her emotionally, we have both come full circle. She now feels like I did when she left in 2009 (wanting to repair the relationship and remembering the value in "us") and I feel like she did back then (being indifferent and emotionally withdrawn).

By the end of the evening I was faced AGAIN with the fact that she blames me for everything - from hiring a nanny to watch our kids while I work and they get out of school, to not paying her support. She takes it personally and believes I am attacking her ability as a mother. I explained it very clearly OVER and OVER again during the last 2 years that I am simply exercising my RIGHT to 50/50 custody and trying to establish a routine in our childrens lives. Also, about support - that was the courts decision based on the facts presented. The truth is the truth.

So, friends, my course is clear. I give up. Done. Over it. The train has left - I will have papers drawn soon. And I'm ok with it.


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## MEM2020

I would have been mortified beyond imagination if you had reconciled. And not because she had an affair. But rather because she sadistically and chronically pushed the affair in your face as long and hard as she could. 




Help239 said:


> Thanks to both of you for your replies.
> 
> Today was our wedding anniversary so I decided to take her to dinner to set the record straight. I got a nanny for the kids and then took her to a nice restaurant. Right off the bat I told her the reason for the dinner. Although this used to be a special day, I was just being cordial and wanted both of us to simply "say it like it is" and decide our next course of action. She agreed.
> 
> There were no cards, no presents, no flowers. Neither one of us even said "happy anniversary" to the other. As a matter of fact, I was thinking about Mother's Day when I decided to get her a card and found myself UNABLE to find a card that expressed the truth about her in ANY way.
> 
> Anyways, we both started by saying we were tired of being in "limbo" and not knowing which direction we were heading. The similarities ended there. I told her emotionally, we have both come full circle. She now feels like I did when she left in 2009 (wanting to repair the relationship and remembering the value in "us") and I feel like she did back then (being indifferent and emotionally withdrawn).
> 
> By the end of the evening I was faced AGAIN with the fact that she blames me for everything - from hiring a nanny to watch our kids while I work and they get out of school, to not paying her support. She takes it personally and believes I am attacking her ability as a mother. I explained it very clearly OVER and OVER again during the last 2 years that I am simply exercising my RIGHT to 50/50 custody and trying to establish a routine in our childrens lives. Also, about support - that was the courts decision based on the facts presented. The truth is the truth.
> 
> So, friends, my course is clear. I give up. Done. Over it. The train has left - I will have papers drawn soon. And I'm ok with it.


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## turnera

Yep.

I'm sorry. But I know there are millions of women out there just dying to find a good man like you.


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