# Swinging turning to emotional (Poly)



## vicouple

My wife and I have been married for 15 years. Anyone that knows us would say we're deeply in love and a great couple. We have been best friends and passionately in love for a long time. We had a bumpy bit around 8 years with some infidelity, but with some counseling and hard work we've been in a really great place for about 5 years. 

About a year ago, my wife, who is a limit pusher, approached me about swinging. We did our homework and started setting some guidelines for how we should approach this. We decided after some discussion that if this is an extension of our bedroom play, like adding toys or role play would be, we can do this safely without harming our relationship. 

We met some couples and worked through some of the weird feelings that come from seeing your spouse with someone else, but generally started figuring it out. After a few experiences we found that we really just wanted FWB, i.e. some good friends that we enjoy hanging out with, but occasionally play with. The idea was that they would be in a healthy marriages, as is ours, and that we would have a little adult fun along the way. 

Well we met a couple that is into Poly and things have gone sour from my perspective. My wife is in love with the man and also with the woman. They have this love triangle thing going and I don't enjoy being around them at all. They're really not my type of people and the boundaries of this being an extension of our bedroom play is out the window. Having my wife fall in love with other people is not what I signed up for. 

Now she really doesn't want to be with other people and just wants her love affair. I told her I don't like it and that it makes me feel bad. I told her that I won't force her to choose, but that I wanted her to know where I'm at. 

She has chosen to pursue this love relationship despite how it makes me feel. I love her very much and don't feel like forcing her is getting what I want from her. I want her to choose me because she wants to. I want her to love me and me only because she wants to. She's not in that place. 

Right now, I will continue to love her, regardless of how this makes me feel, but I'm concerned that over time I will just stop caring. I've put her first in our lives over and over and over again. She rarely every reciprocates that choice.

As far as I'm concerned, I don't care whether we continue or stop the lifestyle stuff. The physical fun with other consenting adults is fun, but not if it's messing with the long term health of our marriage. 

I've been trying to tell my wife to look for another couple who seems to really have a wonderful marriage, good family life, not be on their 2nd or 3rd marriage, and is making this lifestyle stuff work. We can't find a single example in anyone we've met. This is a sign to me that this may be an illusion and that this is a slow (or fast) marriage killer. 

Anyways, I'm at a loss right now. I have not a single friend that I feel I could talk to about this, so I'm going to the WWW to see what I can figure out there.


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## vellocet

Dump the lifestyle. I don't believe, and its just my opinion, that most of the time it won't work because of everything you just described.

And also IMO, either you screw around with other people, or you don't. The whole, "there are rules to swinging" doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

But honestly, I don't think you can dump the lifestyle. Your wife wants it. She isn't going to be able to just drop being able to have other men. 
So what do you do? Its a tough situation. But consider you have a wife that wants other men, and perhaps you do too, what do you do with such a spouse if they aren't allowed to F other people? I know, its about emotions. But its going to happen, just a matter of time.


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## thatbpguy

I don't mean to be a hater, but you got what you bargained for. Also, this could just have easily happened to you. The two of you made an informed decision to play with fire and now you've been burnt. 

So what to do?

Either cope and keep plugging away- for whatever good it will do you. Or, deliver an ultimatum and be prepared to lose your wife. Or at least more so than you already have.


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## Almostrecovered

vicouple said:


> I told her that I won't force her to choose



actually you don't have to force her to choose, but you need to enforce the original boundary that she crossed

by your own agreement of what was expected going into this she has now cheated

the real question is what are you going to do about it?

I'm sure a ton here will bash you for your decision, while I do think that certain fantasies are best left as fantasies and swinging is something that rarely works for all parties involved, there is still a clear line what was and what was not acceptable in the agreement before you went into swinging. Therefore it is indeed cheating


read the newbie link in my signature


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## Married but Happy

> The physical fun with other consenting adults is fun, *but not if it's messing with the long term health of our marriage*.


This is the bottom line. She can either respect that or possibly lose you - in fact, you may have to file for divorce to get her attention so she will make whatever choice she thinks is right for her.

We've been swingers, and it has been great fun and never any problems. We were also in a poly relationship prior to swinging, and that worked very well for everyone too. However, that's certainly not always the case, and sometimes one person gets excluded, at least temporarily, or finds the new dynamic destructive. Even serious long-term poly people sometimes need to work through issues of jealousy or harmful associations.

Rules for swinging are pretty easy to establish and observe, because you are consciously and deliberately excluding emotional connections that go beyond friendship. Poly is primarily about the emotions. Rules don't mix well with emotional connections, and are often cast aside or loosened with increasing experience with poly.


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## bandit.45

Questions:

You mentioned that a few years back there was infidelity. Who's? You or or your wife's?

Now that your wife is caught up in this love triangle, are you still engaging in group sex with all three of them, or are you odd man out now...they have fun banging upstairs while you sit downstairs and watch Netflix?


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## badmemory

vicouple said:


> M This is a sign to me that this may be an illusion and that this is a slow (or fast) marriage killer.


Can I say definitively that swinging is a marriage killer? No. Only anecdotally; and that's from the dozens of posts over the years from people in your same situation.

My opinion? It's a Pandora's box. You opened it.

Admit to your wife you made a horrible mistake in agreeing to this. Tell her you thought you could handle it but you can't. Let her know that her emotional attachments were not supposed to be part of the deal, but you should have known better.

Then, stop swinging, insist on no contact with that couple, and hope that your marriage can survive.


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## PhillyGuy13

You keep stressing you have a healthy marriage. What's that they say about rivers in Egypt?

What was the infidelity years ago? Yours or hers? I don't think swinging is ever a good idea but different strokes... For a couple with infidelity WHY would you ever go there? 

She's made her choice- the couple over you, to hell with your feelings. 

And instead of saying this isn't a lifestyle for us, you want to find another couple, because it's fun. So you like the variety of tail you get, but resent your wife having fun.

Good grief Charlie Brown.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tom67

badmemory said:


> Can I say definitively that swinging is a marriage killer? No. Only anecdotally; and that's from the dozens of posts over the years from people in your same situation.
> 
> My opinion? It's a Pandora's box. You opened it.
> 
> Admit to your wife you made a horrible mistake in agreeing to this. Tell her you thought you could handle it but you can't. Tell her her emotional attachments were not supposed to be part of the deal, but you should have known better.
> 
> Then, stop swinging, insist on no contact with that couple, and hope that your marriage can survive.


If she doesn't agree to this the only option is to file.


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## Plan 9 from OS

No, not really...

As others stated, get out of the lifestyle, period. Maybe the next time it is you who falls for another woman.


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## Q tip

Boundaries without consequence. If there was ever a possibility of losing a wife/husband over something, why on earth do it. Risk management 101. Makes no sense. She brought it up you know. She wanted to cheat with your approval. You got some benefit, I assume - but she really did it seems.

Look, this is just natures way of telling you what will happen if you do this again.

MMSLP speaks to things like this...


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## ne9907

If you are not happy, walk away. For what you wrote, your wife will not leave this love triangle she is on. 
Pursue a lifestyle which will bring you joy and fullfillment.


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## badmemory

vellocet said:


> But honestly, I don't think you can dump the lifestyle. Your wife wants it. She isn't going to be able to just drop being able to have other men.


Very possible. That's the marriage survival part.


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## bandit.45

I don't believe this is the first time on TAM we have heard a story of a WW luring her husband into a MMF or MMFF group sex situation only to give him a quick taste and then boot him out.


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## PhillyGuy13

He's cool with the whole deal. Just not with this couple. He wants to find a couple his wife won't enjoy as much as she does this couple.

Still curious as to the infidelity from years ago. The bumpy bit, if you will.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Q tip

Read the Thread

"For all you swingers out there"

Says it best. Just a few threads below this one. I can't link to it for some reason...

Edit: Oh, I see it was OP who resurrected that thread. Why don't you read it again. You're gonna get the same responses.


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## FromEurope

honestly I dont see nothing healthy (like you repeat) in this marriege... I guess we got diffrent idea's on what is healthy and what not.
good luck


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## honcho

“Right now, I will continue to love her, regardless of how this makes me feel, but I'm concerned that over time I will just stop caring. I've put her first in our lives over and over and over again. She rarely every reciprocates that choice.”

Loving her doesn’t mean you have to accept this situation and how it makes you feel. You want out of this right now and she doesn’t. The longer you humor it the harder it will be to get it to end. She will stop caring long before you do because she is having fun and you will sooner or later become the “not fun” guy. 

You don’t want to force her to make a choice but that is exactly what you must do. Your trying to play the waiting game hoping she gets bored or chooses you and it’s the losing strategy. Long term if you can salvage your marriage out of this you gonna have to stop the lifestyle choice. The rules the two of you agreed upon are now gone and she will probably get attached to the next couple or couple after that.

This tends to be more of a ticking timebomb in relationships and sooner or later is blows them up.


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## Chaparral

bandit.45 said:


> I don't believe this is the first time on TAM we have heard a story of a WW luring her husband into a MMF or MMFF group sex situation only to give him a quick taste and then boot him out.


I know there have been several. It's always the husband that gets left behind.

You need to find you a new sex partner. Stay away from marriage since the concept as escape d you.


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## Chaparral

By not stopping this now which I predict she won't, you are just wasting your life. Get it over with and if she won't stop you can move on with your life. When you find awoman you can't see effing another man you will have found the right one.M


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## Chaparral

Do you get the feeling she is seeing them when you're not around?


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## Nostromo

vicouple said:


> We had a bumpy bit around 8 years with some infidelity, but with some counseling and hard work we've been in a really great place for about 5 years.
> 
> *She committed adultery in the past, or you did? It's pertinent to your current situation.*
> 
> Having my wife fall in love with other people is not what I signed up for.
> 
> *Then you didn't read the fine print. As politically incorrect as it is to say, the fact is that most women are simply incapable of turning off their emotions in a sexual relationship the way a lot of men appear to be. When you allowed your wife to sleep with other men you were actually sending her the message that you do not value her the way a husband ought to value his wife. Now that may not have been your intention, but it's exactly what you were doing.*
> 
> Now she really doesn't want to be with other people and just wants her love affair. I told her I don't like it and that it makes me feel bad. I told her that I won't force her to choose, but that I wanted her to know where I'm at.
> 
> *Considering the fact that this was all her idea, is it possible that she already knew the other couple and this was just her way of bringing you aboard so she no longer had to live two separate lives? It just seems odd to me that a woman married for that many years suddenly gets a wild hair up her ass and decides to take up swinging of all things, I'm not saying it's impossible but it is improbable. From what I know the vast majority of these 'arrangements' originate with the husband.
> *
> I want her to choose me because she wants to. I want her to love me and me only because she wants to. She's not in that place.
> 
> *And she never will be as long as she's still sleeping with other people.
> *
> As far as I'm concerned, I don't care whether we continue or stop the lifestyle stuff.
> 
> *This is the polar opposite of the kind of attitude you will need to have if your goal is 'winning' your wife back. *
> 
> I've been trying to tell my wife to look for another couple who seems to really have a wonderful marriage, good family life, not be on their 2nd or 3rd marriage, and is making this lifestyle stuff work. We can't find a single example in anyone we've met. This is a sign to me that this may be an illusion and that this is a slow (or fast) marriage killer.
> 
> *Now you're getting it.*


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## OldWolf57

She has chosen already dude.
You said yourself, " she don't care how it makes you feel ".
You sound like you have dependent issues, instead of love issues.

From the sound of things, she is the one that cheated in the past. and your dependence back then wouldn't allow you to let her go then.
And being as that, WHY in the hell would you get into swinging.
Let me guess. 
You was afraid she would cheat again. Only this time you might lose her.

Honestly, don't see much to love in sl!ts. Drop off, payoff, and walk off is what you do with them.

Anyway,, pay close attention to the poster who said she may have been seeing them before.

IMO, you been played.


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## OldWolf57

But hey, try this.
Tell your wife, since you can't stand that couple, that you and her will be SWAPPING with others also, so you can get yours.

Noticed I wrote swapping,, not meeting. AND make sure she understand that.
No endless meetings and her finding reasons not to swap until you drop it.


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## wmn1

vicouple said:


> My wife and I have been married for 15 years. Anyone that knows us would say we're deeply in love and a great couple. We have been best friends and passionately in love for a long time. We had a bumpy bit around 8 years with some infidelity, but with some counseling and hard work we've been in a really great place for about 5 years.
> 
> About a year ago, my wife, who is a limit pusher, approached me about swinging. We did our homework and started setting some guidelines for how we should approach this. We decided after some discussion that if this is an extension of our bedroom play, like adding toys or role play would be, we can do this safely without harming our relationship.
> 
> 
> *This should have been a red flag right here. Further, every swinging couple I have ever met broke up eventually because of jealousy or 'rule breaking'. You play with fire, you get burned.
> *
> 
> We met some couples and worked through some of the weird feelings that come from seeing your spouse with someone else, but generally started figuring it out. After a few experiences we found that we really just wanted FWB, i.e. some good friends that we enjoy hanging out with, but occasionally play with. The idea was that they would be in a healthy marriages, as is ours, and that we would have a little adult fun along the way.
> 
> *Most people wouldn't consider a swinging marriage 'a healthy one'. If I made this recommendation to any of my friends, I would lose them all. *
> 
> Well we met a couple that is into Poly and things have gone sour from my perspective. My wife is in love with the man and also with the woman. They have this love triangle thing going and I don't enjoy being around them at all. They're really not my type of people and the boundaries of this being an extension of our bedroom play is out the window. Having my wife fall in love with other people is not what I signed up for.
> 
> *You had to know the risks*
> 
> Now she really doesn't want to be with other people and just wants her love affair. I told her I don't like it and that it makes me feel bad. I told her that I won't force her to choose, but that I wanted her to know where I'm at.
> 
> *Since she was crossing the line, you needed to force her to choose*
> 
> She has chosen to pursue this love relationship despite how it makes me feel. I love her very much and don't feel like forcing her is getting what I want from her. I want her to choose me because she wants to. I want her to love me and me only because she wants to. She's not in that place.
> 
> *Sounds like you lost her*
> 
> Right now, I will continue to love her, regardless of how this makes me feel, but I'm concerned that over time I will just stop caring. I've put her first in our lives over and over and over again. She rarely every reciprocates that choice.
> 
> *And she is the one who talked you into 'swinging'. Do you see a motive here ? You claimed there was infidelity a while ago, by whom ?*
> 
> As far as I'm concerned, I don't care whether we continue or stop the lifestyle stuff. The physical fun with other consenting adults is fun, but not if it's messing with the long term health of our marriage.
> 
> *It sounds like it is *
> 
> I've been trying to tell my wife to look for another couple who seems to really have a wonderful marriage, good family life, not be on their 2nd or 3rd marriage, and is making this lifestyle stuff work. We can't find a single example in anyone we've met. This is a sign to me that this may be an illusion and that this is a slow (or fast) marriage killer.
> 
> *Finally, something you said that I agree completely with. People who have wonderful marriages, good family lives normally don't get real excited over watching their once faithful spouse getting laid right in front of them*
> 
> Anyways, I'm at a loss right now. I have not a single friend that I feel I could talk to about this, so I'm going to the WWW to see what I can figure out there.



*Your wife is showing little regard for you and you seem to be rugsweeping it. If she has little regard for your thoughts or feelings, then you need to toughen up and confront her.

I would suggest dropping the lifestyle all together. It leads to cheating (it is actually cheating) and you can't expect people to play by the rules after you eliminate all the rules. It makes no sense.

You should also inform the wife that she can't be trusted with this type of lifestyle because she broke the rules and drifted away from you. You need to tell her she'll lose you if she continues and then you'll have to monitor her to make sure she complies.

I think you opened pandora's box and didn't like what was inside. The only way to deal with it is by closing it.

*


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## OldWolf57

and dude, she is NOT your best friend. No best friends does this.
Her best friends are the other couple.
She put them before you.

It's time you wake the hell up.


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## treyvion

OldWolf57 said:


> But hey, try this.
> Tell your wife, since you can't stand that couple, that you and her will be SWAPPING with others also, so you can get yours.
> 
> Noticed I wrote swapping,, not meeting. AND make sure she understand that.
> No endless meetings and her finding reasons not to swap until you drop it.


"Swapping" means what?


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## treyvion

OldWolf57 said:


> and dude, she is NOT your best friend. No best friends does this.
> Her best friends are the other couple.
> She put them before you.
> 
> It's time you wake the hell up.


It is true. Her prioritization lets you know what she values most.


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## LongWalk

Vicouple,

It is fortunate that you have posted here. For now you can take steps to save your marriage.

Do not meet other couple anymore. Don't discuss it. Don't tell your wife that she can go with your blessing. Just look her in the eye and say nothing.

Read MMSLP. Read about the 180. Go to the gym and work out. Get active in other social activities. Act happy. Fake it until it is real.

As long as you are so desperate that you will accept your wife putting her emotional and sexual energy elsewhere, she controls you. When you detach from her she will have consider what losing you might mean to her.

Right now she is cake eating and will until you lock the pantry up.

If she does go to make her triangle, I would not be at home when she returns. Go out and return the next day. Don't tell where you have been; just let her experience the silence.


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## vicouple

bandit.45 said:


> Questions:
> 
> You mentioned that a few years back there was infidelity. Who's? You or or your wife's?
> 
> Now that your wife is caught up in this love triangle, are you still engaging in group sex with all three of them, or are you odd man out now...they have fun banging upstairs while you sit downstairs and watch Netflix?


It wasn't mine. She has always wanted to live on the edge. I, on the other hand, have wanted to live a life with standards, integrity, faith, ... one I know our teenage girls could emulate. Since going along with this lifestyle thing I've been truly ashamed, for the first time in my adult life, with the way that I live. I have always felt like I could say to my girls - "do what I do", but not so much anymore :scratchhead:


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## vellocet

vicouple said:


> It wasn't mine. She has always wanted to live on the edge. I, on the other hand, have wanted to live a life with standards, integrity, faith


Having said that, this isn't the woman for you then. Also having said that, not sure why you would have even agreed to swinging.


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## bandit.45

vicouple said:


> It wasn't mine. She has always wanted to live on the edge. I, on the other hand, have wanted to live a life with standards, integrity, faith, ... one I know our teenage girls could emulate. Since going along with this lifestyle thing I've been truly ashamed, for the first time in my adult life, with the way that I live. I have always felt like I could say to my girls - "do what I do", but not so much anymore :scratchhead:


You compromised your values for this woman. A woman who truly loved you and wanted the best for you would never ask you to sacrifice your ethics and morals for her amusement. 

What's the answer to the second question? Are you still participating or have the three of them pushed you to the perimeter?


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## vicouple

PhillyGuy13 said:


> He's cool with the whole deal. Just not with this couple. He wants to find a couple his wife won't enjoy as much as she does this couple.
> 
> Still curious as to the infidelity from years ago. The bumpy bit, if you will.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'd rather not be in the lifestyle, but am willing to put up with it for my wife's sake. Handling her being in love with another man is a tough pill to swallow. There is now no longer anything that is just ours.


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## vellocet

vicouple said:


> I'd rather not be in the lifestyle, but am willing to put up with it for my wife's sake.


That is the very definition of being a cuckold. You ok with being a cuckold?


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## Thound

My opinion is tell her that " we are not going to do this anymore and we are going to MC. If you refuse I will divorce you". Then follow thru.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PhillyGuy13

vicouple said:


> I'd rather not be in the lifestyle, but am willing to put up with it for my wife's sake. Handling her being in love with another man is a tough pill to swallow. There is now no longer anything that is just ours.


When is your Wife going to do anything for your sake? Like, I dunno, be loyal to you?

So, she cheated on you and somehow that is resolved in a healthy way (cough rugswept). Then a few years later she wanted to swing. If my wife cheated then came to me with that idea I would have opened the door and booted her out.

I'm now cosigning the theory that she knew exactly what she was doing when she brought up swinging in the first place.


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## vicouple

bandit.45 said:


> What's the answer to the second question? Are you still participating or have the three of them pushed you to the perimeter?


Nope, I'm not participating any longer.


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## treyvion

vicouple said:


> Nope, I'm not participating any longer.


They pushed you out?


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## Calibre1212

For quadrinogamous relationships, consult your local sex therapist.


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## Hardtohandle

vicouple said:


> Nope, I'm not participating any longer.


OP... 

Therapy.. 

You need a back bone here that no one can give you.. 

Just file for divorce and move on.. Don't threaten her with divorce.. Just do it.. Just give her the papers and don't say a SINGLE WORD.. No self pitty talk.. Nothing...

See what she says.. Plain and simple.. Get your answers that way and decide from there.. 

She will either beg for forgiveness or move in with them.. I am pretty sure one of them eventually will feel the same way you do.. 

Your marriage was messed up long ago.. You didn't do anything to fix it and you both made it worse.. 

I mean this is really bad.. Even by my standards and I have sh!tty standards.. 

I just don't see how you can convince her by talking that this marriage is better then the 2 other people she is with.. Its a man AND a woman.. You might convince her of ONE, but not both.. Sadly both of them can just double team her emotionally to win her back.. 

The only thing I can see remotely, slightly fixing this is seeing your walking out.. Tell her your taking the kid and leaving.. 

I can only hope your silence and the divorce papers will snap her back into reality a bit.. In the end I don't see this lasting many more years after this even if its fixed.. The doors to too many things has been open.. You just can't close them anymore..

Good luck..


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## bandit.45

Does your wife ever have sex with you anymore?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt

Aging Swingers at High STD Risk - Health News and Views - Health.com


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## Regret214

OP...you stopped being in the swinging lifestyle a while ago. You're now in a one sided open marriage. The good news is, you agreed to it. The bad news is, you don't even have a clue on what to do.

If you want to keep your marriage then the first thing you do is stop allowing your wife to have sex with others. Second, figure out if you really want your marriage. After making a complete decision, THEN come back and post. TAM isn't a guide to help people figure out how to swing or how to be comfortable doing so. I'm sure there's other forums out there for that.

Last, it's crazy to even consider swinging when infidelity has played a role in the relationship. That is just my opinion, though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cubby

There's only one solution. Tell her the swinging's unacceptable and it stops or it's divorce. You can't go on like this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NotLikeYou

Vicuckold-

I think you have a serious definition problem, here.

You have made a series of decisions that have placed you in a most embarrassing and emasculating situation.

Because you somehow defined "happiness" as "letting your wife have sex with other people." This was not well thought out on your part, but it seems to be a pattern.

A pattern? Yes, a pattern.

Your solution to the current dilemma is "get wife to find people to have sex with her that she doesn't like as much."

The problem is your wife having sex with other people, period.

No, wait. The problem is that your wife has such loathing and contempt for you that she would rather have sex with other people while you pretend that people think you two make an awesome couple.

Er.... Um.... Well, come to think of it, the problem may be that you lack any semblance of masculine qualities. In ways large and small you have ceded any authority and respect you had in the relationship, because you are a coward.

I know that last one sounds like "wife has such loathing and contempt" re-worded, but its actually one level deeper down the rabbit hole, because it is about YOU, rather than about your wife's feelings towards you.

Pretty zen, huh?

The road to hell is paved with good intentions and easy decisions. You intended to make your wife happy, and it was easy to go along with swinging.

Perhaps you should act with more selfish intentions and make some tough choices for a change!


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## Thundarr

vicouple said:


> About a year ago, my wife, who is a limit pusher, approached me about swinging. We did our homework and started setting some guidelines for how we should approach this. We decided after some discussion that if this is an extension of our bedroom play, like adding toys or role play would be, we can do this safely without harming our relationship.


vicouple, you made a false assumption that your wife wanted to swing because she pushes limits. It's time to drop that notion or you'll be stuck thinking this happened all of a sudden.


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## OldWolf57

Treyvion, couples changing partner to have sex. swap.

Dude, Notlikeyou, may have been hard, but it's true.

Every time she pushed the envelope and you conceded, she lost more respect for you.

A MAN leads his family.. but now,, there is NOTHING thats just yours and hers.

My worry now is for your daughters.
Degenerates are taking over your family, and you worrying about some sl%t.
What if this degenerate start looking at your ddaughters ???

Wake the hell up !!!


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## tom67

OldWolf57 said:


> Treyvion, couples changing partner to have sex. swap.
> 
> Dude, Notlikeyou, may have been hard, but it's true.
> 
> Every time she pushed the envelope and you conceded, she lost more respect for you.
> 
> A MAN leads his family.. but now,, there is NOTHING thats just yours and hers.
> 
> My worry now is for your daughters.
> Degenerates are taking over your family, and you worrying about some sl%t.
> What if this degenerate start looking at your ddaughters ???
> 
> Wake the hell up !!!


Oh good grief how old are the kids?
FILE NOW!!!


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## Westwind

Maybe you should talk with your wife about the other couple and your feelings. I thought part of the polyamory way was to talk everything out. At least give it a chance.


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## Cubby

OldWolf57 said:


> Treyvion, couples changing partner to have sex. swap.
> 
> Dude, Notlikeyou, may have been hard, but it's true.
> 
> Every time she pushed the envelope and you conceded, she lost more respect for you.
> 
> A MAN leads his family.. but now,, there is NOTHING thats just yours and hers.
> 
> My worry now is for your daughters.
> Degenerates are taking over your family, and you worrying about some sl%t.
> What if this degenerate start looking at your ddaughters ???
> 
> Wake the hell up !!!


OldWolf57, you hit the nail on the head with this one. The swingerwife has lost respect and lost attraction for her husband. A man who protects his wife and family is attractive to women.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Sports Fan

Look where being a nice guy got you. You have become doormat material.

I'm sorry to say but you got what you deserved. Obviously it was your wife that wanted to screw other people but sugar coated it for you in this case swinging and some candy for you.

My opinion, do a 180 tell her the lifestyle is finished and if she continues down this road you will be filing for Divorce.

I hope there are no kids involved in this messed up issue.


----------



## Chaparral

So she goes there without you now? How often? Have you told her that doing this without you is cheating?

You need both books linked to below. Download them immediately from amazon.com


----------



## Sports Fan

vicouple said:


> It wasn't mine. She has always wanted to live on the edge. I, on the other hand, have wanted to live a life with standards, integrity, faith, ... one I know our teenage girls could emulate. Since going along with this lifestyle thing I've been truly ashamed, for the first time in my adult life, with the way that I live. I have always felt like I could say to my girls - "do what I do", but not so much anymore :scratchhead:


Well stand up now and be counted. Be an example for your girls. Do a 180 tell her this life of debauchery is over and if she doesn't like it she can exit the nearest door.

Also if you work and are supporting her cut her off. Stop financing her infedelity.


----------



## D.H Mosquito

The only one who can fix this is you, if you dont mind a bit of wife sharing to "spice things up" then all well and good but never same peope more than 3 times to prevent bonding, if she refuses then cut her loose as you dont need to be the free meal ticket and roof over the head only type husband, once you've kicked her into the long grass i'm sure his wife will get a little peeved that she is there always and move to have her shunted out


----------



## Chaparral

Which of them does she text, call the most?

Why did you stop go with her?

Did the three of them make you feel unwelcome?


----------



## Coldie

If you continue to allow her to "fall in love" with the other couple you will end up their equals. That is the way poly works. Your marriage will mean nothing because hurting you would be equal to hurting them.

Stop the poly thing now while you have a chance. As far as physical fun, that is over. Your wife will never be okay with physically having sex with other adults because she wants an emotional connection (like a lot of women), and not just physical sex from strangers. These type of things usually do not work out because although you think you can have this unattached sex for the rest of your life, she cannot. If she enjoyed unattached sex, she would have probably been cheating throughout your entire relationship. Some people like to get to know the person they are physical with and develop feelings. This sounds like your wife.

Good luck.

*Experience: Me and my wife have threesomes with other women. However, my wife wants no connection at all with the other women. She enjoys it but doesn't want to get to know them at all. I, like a lot of men, have no need to get to know any of the other females either. In fact, I don't even talk to them other than the night things go down. We know swingers, some try to loan off their wives and say they are voyeurs (enjoy just watching), but have never swung and I wouldn't be okay with another guy involved with us at all. I'd end my relationship if it's even suggested.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Coldie said:


> *Experience: Me and my wife have threesomes with other women. However, my wife wants no connection at all with the other women. She enjoys it but doesn't want to get to know them at all. I, like a lot of men, have no need to get to know any of the other females either. In fact, I don't even talk to them other than the night things go down. We know swingers, some try to loan off their wives and say they are voyeurs (enjoy just watching), but have never swung and I wouldn't be okay with another guy involved with us at all. I'd end my relationship if it's even suggested.


So your wife will have threesomes with you if they include another woman, but if she "even suggests" bringing another guy in, you would end your relationship?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## vicouple

Cubby said:


> OldWolf57, you hit the nail on the head with this one. The swingerwife has lost respect and lost attraction for her husband. A man who protects his wife and family is attractive to women.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks for the bluntness. I've been telling myself the exact same thing for a while now. I just kept thinking if she's not happy living life with me then it's not real anyways, is it? Anyways, you guys are right! I need to man up, set my standards, live by them, and let her choose to join me on the path I'm heading or find someone more compatible. I genuinely love her, but compromising my core values is not respectable and is not the man I want to be. Thanks for the kick in the ass guys.

Also, I've explained exactly where I'm at to her and have told the couple I'm not interested in them. The decision from here is up to my wife I suppose.


----------



## ArmyofJuan

vicouple said:


> She has chosen to pursue this love relationship despite how it makes me feel. I love her very much and don't feel like forcing her is getting what I want from her. I want her to choose me because she wants to. I want her to love me and me only because she wants to. She's not in that place.


You won't ever be in that place if you continue to be submissive and an enabler.

She will do this for as long as you allow it, she is not going to stop on her own. You are actually supporting her cheating on you which takes away all motivation for her to stop.

Tough love brother, its time to put your foot down. Tell her stop or get out. She'll most likely call your bluff or up and leave but not for long. Once you pull your support out from under her the realization of what she is doing will become more apparent. The other couple may take her in at first but the OW may not tolerate playing second fiddle to your W for long. 

You have to think long term here and you need to really drop the nice guy routine and start pushing and be an a-hole if need be. She's been pushing you around for too long, you need to push back and don't fold.


----------



## bandit.45

vicouple said:


> Thanks for the bluntness. I've been telling myself the exact same thing for a while now. I just kept thinking if she's not happy living life with me then it's not real anyways, is it? Anyways, you guys are right! I need to man up, set my standards, live by them, and let her choose to join me on the path I'm heading or find someone more compatible. I genuinely love her, but compromising my core values is not respectable and is not the man I want to be. Thanks for the kick in the ass guys.
> 
> Also, I've explained exactly where I'm at to her and have told the couple I'm not interested in them. The decision from here is up to my wife I suppose.


Um....

Vi I'm going to lay a fundamental truth on you and you need to get this through your confused skull: You are not responsible for your idiot wife's happiness. You are not responsible for ANYONE'S happiness but your own. 

Happiness is a choice you make for yourself...every day. Your slvt of a wife is responsible for her own happiness....and right now she is happy as hell having a alpha man and bi-woman paying her sexual attention. You had nothing to do with it, other than stepping aside and allowing it. 

You choose to be miserable...you did that, not her. What was it about your upbringing that would make you think that your wife's prior affair or this affair are in any way acceptable in a marriage? Who brainwashed you into accepting this horsesh!t?

Throw her out. Throw her skank ass out of the house and tell her to go live with her lovers. File for divorce. No way would I reconcile with such a loathsome woman.


----------



## Clay2013

I have to agree with Bandit. She made her choice now you need to quit allowing this to continue. Show her the door and you will see just how clearly things will change. I would not be a bit surprised if the other couple fails over it too. 

Put the priority back on you and move on with your life.


----------



## Regret214

ThePheonix said:


> Regret, why don't you go ahead and tell this stooge , from a woman's perspective, that his wife doesn't give a rats azz about him. You know that when a woman craves another, her interest in him is shot, she has no respect for him, when respect is gone, it never really comes, and a woman can't love a man she has no respect for. And explain to him if he's got to stop "allowing" her to sleep with others, thus fettering her desire to do so, , he's lost the war.


He lost the war from the very onset. He lost the war when he agreed to let his wife sleep with others. He lost the war when he rugswept the affair that he hasn't talked about. He lost the war when he gave her the power to make the decision to choose him or the other couple.

He knows this which is why he's afraid to talk about the affair. In the end, she'll play him for a fool because she didn't lose respect for him - she never had any from the get go.

OP, cut your losses and save yourself years of torment and starting another post in 2016 here asking us what the hell happened to your marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CH

You screwed up and both of you were not ideal to be in the lifestyle. I looked into it (adding spice to our marriage) but almost everyone stated we were not good due to my past infidelity. The only people who would encourage you to do it, based on your rocky past, are those that just want to bed your wife.

You should have never went into the lifestyle. Some people can do it but they have ground rules that cannot be broken. The rules are there for a reason, the person always trying to push the boundaries are the ones who are looking to cheat.

Others have said it, give the ultimatum, if you're going to sit back and give her the choice so that you know she LOVES you, you're *bleep*.


----------



## Coldie

PhillyGuy13 said:


> So your wife will have threesomes with you if they include another woman, but if she "even suggests" bringing another guy in, you would end your relationship?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Absolutely. Another woman wasn't my suggestion and I would have never suggested anything like it. Even when she suggested women, I was at first against it. She is bisexual and didn't force the issue, but she left communication open in case I had a change of heart. We communicated and both agreed that another female could be an experience we'd both enjoy, as long as we were together. We talk about the experience or what it could be for about 2 years before we ever did anything actively to pursue it.

However, I am not bisexual, I do not have a desire to be with a guy or see her with a guy, and anything with another guy has no benefit for us as a couple or me. So yes, if she was to suggest it, I'd let her move on with her life and find someone else to spend her time with. I say that without any concern, because I know my wife and she would never suggest it. She knows how I feel and knew how I felt prior to her suggesting other women. My profile (threads created) has the full story.


----------



## Coldie

bandit.45 said:


> Um....
> 
> Vi I'm going to lay a fundamental truth on you and you need to get this through your confused skull: You are not responsible for your idiot wife's happiness. You are not responsible for ANYONE'S happiness but your own.
> 
> Happiness is a choice you make for yourself...every day. Your slvt of a wife is responsible for her own happiness....and right now she is happy as hell having a alpha man and bi-woman paying her sexual attention. You had nothing to do with it, other than stepping aside and allowing it.
> 
> You choose to be miserable...you did that, not her. What was it about your upbringing that would make you think that your wife's prior affair or this affair are in any way acceptable in a marriage? Who brainwashed you into accepting this horsesh!t?
> 
> Throw her out. Throw her skank ass out of the house and tell her to go live with her lovers. File for divorce. No way would I reconcile with such a loathsome woman.


I didn't get to this part of the thread before I replied. If she cheated prior, your problem isn't swinging or poly, it's your wife. She has no respect for you or the relationship. I agree with bandit.


----------



## wmn1

Coldie said:


> If you continue to allow her to "fall in love" with the other couple you will end up their equals. That is the way poly works. Your marriage will mean nothing because hurting you would be equal to hurting them.
> 
> Stop the poly thing now while you have a chance. As far as physical fun, that is over. Your wife will never be okay with physically having sex with other adults because she wants an emotional connection (like a lot of women), and not just physical sex from strangers. These type of things usually do not work out because although you think you can have this unattached sex for the rest of your life, she cannot. If she enjoyed unattached sex, she would have probably been cheating throughout your entire relationship. Some people like to get to know the person they are physical with and develop feelings. This sounds like your wife.
> 
> Good luck.
> 
> *Experience: Me and my wife have threesomes with other women. However, my wife wants no connection at all with the other women. She enjoys it but doesn't want to get to know them at all. I, like a lot of men, have no need to get to know any of the other females either. In fact, I don't even talk to them other than the night things go down. We know swingers, some try to loan off their wives and say they are voyeurs (enjoy just watching), but have never swung and I wouldn't be okay with another guy involved with us at all. I'd end my relationship if it's even suggested.


wow, threesomes with no other guys involved, you are the only guy and the wife is okay with that and involved in it? Most guys I know would only dream about that arrangement. 

I could never figure out the guys who are voyeurs. Self esteem problems ? 

I would never be able to swing. Morally opposed to it and tons of problems with it as well that follow. As with you, I would never be able to get another guy involved. The concept disgusts me.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Coldie said:


> Absolutely. Another woman wasn't my suggestion and I would have never suggested anything like it. Even when she suggested women, I was at first against it. She is bisexual and didn't force the issue, but she left communication open in case I had a change of heart. We communicated and both agreed that another female could be an experience we'd both enjoy, as long as we were together. We talk about the experience or what it could be for about 2 years before we ever did anything actively to pursue it.
> 
> However, I am not bisexual, I do not have a desire to be with a guy or see her with a guy, and anything with another guy has no benefit for us as a couple or me. So yes, if she was to suggest it, I'd let her move on with her life and find someone else to spend her time with. I say that without any concern, because I know my wife and she would never suggest it. She knows how I feel and knew how I felt prior to her suggesting other women. My profile (threads created) has the full story.


Thanks for clarifying. If it was her idea makes sense now. If you had wanted a woman and she agreed but then if she wanted a guy you would throw her out. I see now she wanted the woman not you. Thanks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Coldie

wmn1 said:


> wow, threesomes with no other guys involved, you are the only guy and the wife is okay with that and involved in it? Most guys I know would only dream about that arrangement.
> 
> I could never figure out the guys who are voyeurs. Self esteem problems ?
> 
> I would never be able to swing. Morally opposed to it and tons of problems with it as well that follow. As with you, I would never be able to get another guy involved. The concept disgusts me.


I didn't want to derail. I replied because I felt I had something somewhat in common. I agree with your statements. If swinging was something my wife had to have, I wouldn't want to keep her from finding happiness, but she would need to find a new husband first. And I say that knowing she wanted and accepted other women into our bedroom.


----------



## Harken Banks

I don't know why I am entering this forum, but why be married if the game is f*ck other people? I don't know how anyone can deal with that, psychologically. Unless there is a big financial benefit.


----------



## LongWalk

vicouple said:


> Thanks for the bluntness. I've been telling myself the exact same thing for a while now. I just kept thinking if she's not happy living life with me then it's not real anyways, is it? Anyways, you guys are right! I need to man up, set my standards, live by them, and let her choose to join me on the path I'm heading or find someone more compatible. I genuinely love her, but compromising my core values is not respectable and is not the man I want to be. Thanks for the kick in the ass guys.
> 
> Also, I've explained exactly where I'm at to her and have told the couple I'm not interested in them. The decision from here is up to my wife I suppose.


Don't explain. She knows how you feel. Act.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

(god forgive for interupting my self-imposed hiatus on posting on TAM. But I can't NOT VOTE on this one....)

OP:
you have the ability to solve some of your biggest problems all at once. drop the lifestyle, drop your wife and restore your personal standards and integrity.

your wife is a wh*re, of course. who or what a wh*re respects should have no relevance. it is you who should not repect her. neither should her daughters, and I'm sure they won't once you make it clear she is no longer your wife, and why.
as a single man you will have nowhere to go but up in terms of the quality of the next woman you will bring into their lives. now go take care of business.....


----------



## BradWesley

Harken Banks said:


> I don't know why I am entering this forum, but why be married if the game is f*ck other people? I don't know how anyone can deal with that, psychologically. Unless there is a big financial benefit.


I believe your question, in a way, parallels this one:

Why does Baskin-Robbins have over 50 flavors of ice cream?

Answer - A little something for everyone.

P.S. - Wife and I are happily married, not into any of that.


----------



## Melvynman

Little late to this discussion. 

The word "love" is only about 1500 years old and used in the western world only. We love our cars, dogs and lots of other things. For most couples "love" is a strong emotional attachment with sexual intimacy. 

Your wife loves sex!...thats good for you. You will ruin your marriage if you control her sexuality. If you force her to be monogamous because of your insecurities she will become one the 43% of women in America that are sexually dysfunctional. What separates humans from all most all other animals, we have sex for pure pleasure. Our sexual cultural imprinting is to find the man or women of our dreams and live happily ever after. Divorce, sexless marriages, men and women sexual dysfunctional rates those numbers add up like 80-90% of adults. Nobody really knows the true number. 

Your wife by evolution is a promiscuous animal. She multi-orgasmic and can have sex for hours with several people. She will moan during sex to excite her current partner and others around her. During her life time she will have sexual peaks and at other time have no interest in sexual activity. You (males) are very opportunistic they can hear women moaning better then a baby crying. Males only last a few minutes and are very content after sex. Males will seek sex daily for most of their adult life with willing females. 

Your wife is confusing sex with love and her commitment to you. You and your wife will never have the great sex you had when you first met. Evolution design her to be promiscuous seeking great sex with others. Its the most natural hight in the world. That is why infidelity rates for women are so high. Our sexual culture imprinting, teaches us that great sex must be love... and when the great sex is gone then the love is too! 

Find you and your wife new lovers!... making sure she and you understand you can have great sex without "love" being involved. Keep sex in your life and keep the commitment to each other. Good luck.


----------



## bandit.45

Look, from a philosophical standpoint I have no issue with swinging, as long as the married couple have a strong relationship, as long as strict rules and boundaries are established up front, agreed to, and abided by. Everyone has their kinks. Sometimes married people have kinks in common, sometimes they don't. 

Vi's WW is a serial cheater, a manipulator and has zero morals. Her kink seems to be banging as many men and women as she can before she wrinkles up. 

Vi seems like a decent guy who has a misguided, submissive form of love for his WW that is undeserved and unwarranted. He wants a monogamous relationship with a woman who is incapable of providing such. Vi needs to get some counseling for what appears to be debilitating codependency and PTSD.


----------



## Harken Banks

BradWesley said:


> I believe your question, in a way, parallels this one:
> 
> Why does Baskin-Robbins have over 50 flavors of ice cream?
> 
> Answer - A little something for everyone.
> 
> P.S. - Wife and I are happily married, not into any of that.


I thought it was 31. Anyway, how can you watch your wife suck some d*ck and think right on man, you go! Then drive home in the station wagon and put the kids to bed. Maybe. I don't know.


----------



## wmn1

Melvynman said:


> Little late to this discussion.
> 
> The word "love" is only about 1500 years old and used in the western world only. We love our cars, dogs and lots of other things. For most couples "love" is a strong emotional attachment with sexual intimacy.
> 
> Your wife loves sex!...thats good for you. You will ruin your marriage if you control her sexuality. If you force her to be monogamous because of your insecurities she will become one the 43% of women in America that are sexually dysfunctional. What separates humans from all most all other animals, we have sex for pure pleasure. Our sexual cultural imprinting is to find the man or women of our dreams and live happily ever after. Divorce, sexless marriages, men and women sexual dysfunctional rates those numbers add up like 80-90% of adults. Nobody really knows the true number.
> 
> Your wife by evolution is a promiscuous animal. She multi-orgasmic and can have sex for hours with several people. She will moan during sex to excite her current partner and others around her. During her life time she will have sexual peaks and at other time have no interest in sexual activity. You (males) are very opportunistic they can hear women moaning better then a baby crying. Males only last a few minutes and are very content after sex. Males will seek sex daily for most of their adult life with willing females.
> 
> Your wife is confusing sex with love and her commitment to you. You and your wife will never have the great sex you had when you first met. Evolution design her to be promiscuous seeking great sex with others. Its the most natural hight in the world. That is why infidelity rates for women are so high. Our sexual culture imprinting, teaches us that great sex must be love... and when the great sex is gone then the love is too!
> 
> Find you and your wife new lovers!... making sure she and you understand you can have great sex without "love" being involved. Keep sex in your life and keep the commitment to each other. Good luck.



Not in agreement with this. Yes she needs to drop the other couple but she won't and if she does, there will be another one. You reached your hand into a fire pit. Why reach it into another one and get burned just the same. Your mistake was feeling 'love' while endorsing infidelity. They don't crisscross. I have always felt why get married if you want to screw other people, just stay single and do it. And swinging just gets other people involved in the immorality. Then they will eventually suffer ruin too. 

You had to break the rules in order to enforce others. Isn't that hypocrisy ? 

I know three swinging couples who are all in divorce proceedings right now, two never broke any 'rules'. Bad lifestyle and it blew up in your face. Stupid is doing the same thing and expecting different results. Why do that ?


----------



## wmn1

Harken Banks said:


> I thought it was 31. Anyway, how can you watch your wife suck some d*ck and think right on man, you go! Then drive home in the station wagon and put the kids to bed. Maybe. I don't know.


I agree Harken. The thought of it turns my stomach big time. It is definitely a deal breaker for me.


----------



## workindad

You agreed to an open marriage concept with a former wayward spouse? 

Think about your children- you are ashamed of your choices- it is never too late to turn it around and live the example that they can learn healthy behaviors from.

Your wife lost all respect for you and expects you to be cuckold which you seem to be willing to accept. Why? There are better partners out there. If you will not respect yourself, then you cannot expect your wife or anyone else to either.

Do a hard 180, see a lawyer, take care of your assets, get checked for STDs and FILE. Set the example for your children. You certainly do not want one or all of them to grow thinking this is normal.


----------



## Harken Banks

wmn1 said:


> I agree Harken. The thought of it turns my stomach big time. It is definitely a deal breaker for me.


Apparently there is a community in our community. It's broken a few marriages. Those that aren't broken in the legal sense are in our view pretty much broken already.


----------



## happyman64

Melvynman said:


> Little late to this discussion.
> 
> The word "love" is only about 1500 years old and used in the western world only. We love our cars, dogs and lots of other things. For most couples "love" is a strong emotional attachment with sexual intimacy.
> 
> Your wife loves sex!...thats good for you. You will ruin your marriage if you control her sexuality. If you force her to be monogamous because of your insecurities she will become one the 43% of women in America that are sexually dysfunctional. What separates humans from all most all other animals, we have sex for pure pleasure. Our sexual cultural imprinting is to find the man or women of our dreams and live happily ever after. Divorce, sexless marriages, men and women sexual dysfunctional rates those numbers add up like 80-90% of adults. Nobody really knows the true number.
> 
> Your wife by evolution is a promiscuous animal. She multi-orgasmic and can have sex for hours with several people. She will moan during sex to excite her current partner and others around her. During her life time she will have sexual peaks and at other time have no interest in sexual activity. You (males) are very opportunistic they can hear women moaning better then a baby crying. Males only last a few minutes and are very content after sex. Males will seek sex daily for most of their adult life with willing females.
> 
> Your wife is confusing sex with love and her commitment to you. You and your wife will never have the great sex you had when you first met. Evolution design her to be promiscuous seeking great sex with others. Its the most natural hight in the world. That is why infidelity rates for women are so high. Our sexual culture imprinting, teaches us that great sex must be love... and when the great sex is gone then the love is too!
> 
> Find you and your wife new lovers!... making sure she and you understand you can have great sex without "love" being involved. Keep sex in your life and keep the commitment to each other. Good luck.


Melvynman

I think you got lost. This is the Coping with Infidelity forum not Penthouse Letters.

The problem is with his wife. She has gotten the "love" concept with the two people she is not married to.

That is the problem.

HM


----------



## Harken Banks

Maybe with the poly or swinger thing a line was crossed that cannot be uncrossed. Last I will comment.


----------



## Quantmflux

IMO OP is already divorced and just not aware of it.

If there were anything there to salvage she wouldn't have been as callous and dismissive when he first brought his concerns.

The marriage was likely over after the first affair, but she manipulated her way into a pretty good "win win" (narcissistic really)

OP, sorry for the brutal truth, but as an outsider looking in it's pretty clear.

Reading your first post I didn't even think this story could be *real*. That's how extreme the described behavior is. Your responses have convinced me that it very well may be though. You need to file ASAP and make sure to get custody of your daughters.

Read that last part 100000x until it sinks in. Get. Custody. Of. Your. Daughters.

I try to be non-judgemental, but your teen daughters shouldn't become part of your wifes midlife discovery project and forced into a "poly" household.


----------



## bandit.45

Harken Banks said:


> Apparently there is a community in our community. It's broken a few marriages. Those that aren't broken in the legal sense are in our view pretty much broken already.


It is. You would be surprised who is into that lifestyle.

Anecdote: 

About ten years ago my ex-wife and I were acquainted with a couple who lived down the street from us. I had helped the guy rewire his garage and he did some tax work for me. He and his wife were both young and good looking and they were really devoted evangelical churchgoers. We got to be pretty good friends with them and my ex and his wife became shopping pals. 

One night, after getting to know them for about six months, we had dinner over at our place. My ex and the couple were tipsy and laughing and joking. Then the subject of sex came up and out of the blue the dude told us that they were swingers, and that they belonged to some secret club of Christian couples....churchgoing born-agains, who got together about once a month to have big orgies and swap outs. 

I literally could not think of what to say and I was basically speechless the rest of the evening. My ex wife was dumbfounded too, although she cheerfully told them it was cool. I had no problem with it, I was just surprised and shocked it was a group of born-agains. I never belonged to that kind of group when I was growing up Baptist! Holy crap! 

Looking at this couple and knowing what devoted churchgoers they were you would never have expected it. 

Anyway, about three months after that, the guy comes over to my place crying and wanting to talk. You guessed it...his wife fell for the husband of one of the couples they were swapping with and she left him. They were divorced about six months later and she later married that OM. It was tragic. But I didn't feel sorry for the guy because to me, swinging is a form of gambling. You role the dice hoping you don't get burned.


----------



## NoChoice

Okay, so anyone who has read my posts I'm sure has classified me as a lover of those that cheat. An incorrect assumption I assure you. I am a lover of safe, secure families for children to grow in and learn from. Unfortunately, in this instance based on what you've told this woman is toxic not only to you but especially to your daughters. If they find out about dear old Mom they may decide that this behavior is okay to emulate.

In other threads, where deep remorse has been shown, I have advocated for saving the marriage if at all possible but you've already been through that in that "bumpy bit" 5 or so years ago. It must have been hard on your wife and she didn't want to go through that again so she devised a way to cheat WITH YOUR APPROVAL.

I try to find the good in people whenever possible but this behavior is completely unacceptable. Unless this woman undergoes a DRASTIC reformation, which I do not believe she is capable of, then I would advise putting as much distance as possible between her and your family. Your wife is nitroglycerin and you two were playing with fire. There is coming a cataclysmic explosion which may take out unintended victims i.e. your daughters.

This will be hard but you must tell your wife that she is free to pursue her polygamous ways but she will be going it alone. She will make her choice and you must be strong for your daughters. A life without her will be far better for all involved in the long run. I am truly sorry for your situation but sometimes we have to do what must be done.


----------



## NoChoice

bandit.45 said:


> It is. You would be surprised who is into that lifestyle.
> 
> Anecdote:
> 
> About ten years ago my ex-wife and I were acquainted with a couple who lived down the street from us. I had helped the guy rewire his garage and he did some tax work for me. He and his wife were both young and good looking and they were really devoted evangelical churchgoers. We got to be pretty good friends with them and my ex and his wife became shopping pals.
> 
> *One night, after getting to know them for about six months, we had dinner over at our place. My ex and the couple were tipsy and laughing and joking. Then the subject of sex came up and out of the blue the dude told us that they were swingers, and that they belonged to some secret club of Christian couples....churchgoing born-agains, who got together about once a month to have big orgies and swap outs. *
> 
> I literally could not think of what to say and I was basically speechless the rest of the evening. My ex wife was dumbfounded too, although she cheerfully told them it was cool. I had no problem with it, I was just surprised and shocked it was a group of born-agains. I never belonged to that kind of group when I was growing up Baptist! Holy crap!
> 
> Looking at this couple and knowing what devoted churchgoers they were you would never have expected it.
> 
> Anyway, about three months after that, the guy comes over to my place crying and wanting to talk. You guessed it...his wife fell for the husband of one of the couples they were swapping with and she left him. They were divorced about six months later and she later married that OM. It was tragic. But I didn't feel sorry for the guy because to me, swinging is a form of gambling. You role the dice hoping you don't get burned.


They must have missed the chapter on Sodom and Gomorrah! Oh well at least they were up on the eight commandments!

I don't see how there could be a more dangerous game to play for married couples.To stay with the Biblical theme it's like going on the ark and taking termites.


----------



## 6301

vicouple said:


> Also, I've explained exactly where I'm at to her and have told the couple I'm not interested in them. The decision from here is up to my wife I suppose.


 Wrong!! Open your eyes. So far your wife has cheated, and now is involved in a love triangle and your holding the bag over it so to be blunt, her decisions so far really stink to high heaven and your marriage is on the brink so stop letting her make the decisions and for once step up to the plate and let her know that she's pushed the boundaries way too far and it stops now. 

To be honest, the woman is already gone and if I were you, I would let her know that if she wants to be with this other couple, then pack up and move, then file for divorce. She's doing what she wants, when she wants and however she wants to do it and doesn't give a rats ass how it affects you. Is that what you want? Each day you let this go on the more she loses respect for you so pal, it's time you find your back bone and start taking charge of your life.

Maybe you can't change her but that doesn't mean you can't make changes for you.


----------



## bandit.45

Why does he have to be the one to move out?


----------



## NoChoice

Melvynman said:


> Little late to this discussion.
> 
> The word "love" is only about 1500 years old and used in the western world only. We love our cars, dogs and lots of other things. For most couples "love" is a strong emotional attachment with sexual intimacy.
> 
> Your wife loves sex!...thats good for you. You will ruin your marriage if you control her sexuality. If you force her to be monogamous because of your insecurities she will become one the 43% of women in America that are sexually dysfunctional. What separates humans from all most all other animals, we have sex for pure pleasure. Our sexual cultural imprinting is to find the man or women of our dreams and live happily ever after. Divorce, sexless marriages, men and women sexual dysfunctional rates those numbers add up like 80-90% of adults. Nobody really knows the true number.


Your wife loves sex with other people...that's bad for everybody! It's not that humans have sex for pleasure it's that humans have pleasure. Our brains have developed (at least supposed to have) beyond that of all other species allowing us to be separated by more that having sex for pleasure. We are also the only species that can communicate verbally thereby being able to share another thing that other species cannot, highly developed emotions and feelings. We are also separated by a notably higher degree of rational cognizance thereby allowing us to reason situations and apply logic to our lives (again supposedly). So which path are you advocating here? The path of instinct and chaos or the path of reason and logic? It seems you are trying to mix the two so that we apply reason and logic when it suits us and then revert back to instinctual behavior when that suits us. I see that as the ultimate in cake eating and a pretty sorry excuse for deviant behavior in the 21st century. We also used to urinate and defecate in the wide open with no thought of decorum. What of the thousands of men and women who are excretorialy dysfunctional because they are forced to use restrooms?? Is this really an argument you want to put forth?? We are supposed to have advanced beyond such things, are you proposing we go back and accept those who wish to defecate and urinate on the sidewalk so they don't become dysfunctional? 



> Your wife by evolution is a promiscuous animal. She multi-orgasmic and can have sex for hours with several people. She will moan during sex to excite her current partner and others around her. During her life time she will have sexual peaks and at other time have no interest in sexual activity. You (males) are very opportunistic they can hear women moaning better then a baby crying. Males only last a few minutes and are very content after sex. Males will seek sex daily for most of their adult life with willing females.


Maybe a million or so years ago that behavior would be acceptable but have we not advanced in the last million years??? Women are by NON-evolution promiscuous animals, by evolution they are supposed to be rational cognizant thinking beings having the ability to understand cause and consequence THEREBY AVOIDING situations that would be damaging to themselves and their mates. Are you positing that society accept behavior that we should have evolved well beyond by now?



> Your wife is confusing sex with love and her commitment to you. You and your wife will never have the great sex you had when you first met. Evolution design her to be promiscuous seeking great sex with others. Its the most natural hight in the world. That is why infidelity rates for women are so high. Our sexual culture imprinting, teaches us that great sex must be love... and when the great sex is gone then the love is too!


You seem to have a very narrow, dim view of mankind but I must inform you that are millions of people on this planet that HAVE evolved beyond the instinctual behavior you describe and have found great sexual pleasure in another region of their brain. That region doesn't involve the baser instinctual motivations but rather a higher and I believe better, sexual experience based on dedication, security, trust and, dare I say, love. IMO that equates to a much, much better sexual experience with greater depth and meaning than that experienced by animals or humans of a million years ago. They were copulating instinctually for procreation not intimacy.



> Find you and your wife new lovers!... making sure she and you understand you can have great sex without "love" being involved. Keep sex in your life and keep the commitment to each other. Good luck.


I beg to disagree with this except for the last two sentences. This has already caused serious rifts in this marriage and you advocate more of the same? I see that as marital suicide. The last two sentences however I see as sound advice if they can get past the damage already done. And I too wish them the best of luck.


----------



## bandit.45

Looks like another OP bailed on us.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Well, it's the weekend. He may have company over.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Swinging turning to emotional (Poly)*



PhillyGuy13 said:


> Well, it's the weekend. He may have company over.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Cheeky


----------



## wmn1

bandit.45 said:


> Looks like another OP bailed on us.


You know, Bandit, I've come to the conclusion that swingers live in glass houses which ultimately break or they throw stones that break other people's houses. Then they get embarrassed when that 'fantasy' turns out to be some type of porn adventure that failed. My guess is that this guy knows that he screwed up but is scared as heck to pull the plug. If my wife suggested 'swinging', it would be over for me. He is probably scared to come back too because he knows the truth but doesn't want to lay the hammer. Maybe someone else is wearing the pants I don't know but I wish him the best anyway


----------



## Q tip

Well, you know how swingers are... three's company...


----------



## jack_1970

what hard to handle said is truer , move on with your life you need someone in your life that cares for you and cares about your feelings, trust me its very hard but it will be less painful for you . my wife cheated on me 18 months ago we did the swinging thing and stopped , not cause I wanted but she wanted . and the pain of infidelity still lurks in my heart, I don't know if I made the right choice to stay but to go back in time and go through all the emotion again, I would have left her .now only time will tell ,


----------



## ThirtyYearsIn

bandit.45 said:


> Looks like another OP bailed on us.


I get the tough love thing but sometimes TAM folks line up for knock out blows. For people who are new to this it is shocking enough just to read about others. When someone is also living it they are in a fragile state and tough love looks like abuse instead of support.


----------



## thummper

I've said it before and I'll say it again, swinging is a very dangerous situation for a married couple. I think sooner or later one of the pair is going to start resenting the other having sex with someone else. I watched several episodes of a tv show about this topic and, sure enough, jealously started raising its head pretty quickly. If you want to screw around with a multitude of partners, why get married in the first place? I guess I'll never understand it.


----------



## wmn1

thummper said:


> I've said it before and I'll say it again, swinging is a very dangerous situation for a married couple. I think sooner or later one of the pair is going to start resenting the other having sex with someone else. I watched several episodes of a tv show about this topic and, sure enough, jealously started raising its head pretty quickly. If you want to screw around with a multitude of partners, why get married in the first place? I guess I'll never understand it.



I agree completely and if there is another moral value turn after these people went from loyal to swinging to loyal again, the images and equities are always going to be in their head. Like "you got it more than I did" or you let that guy 'cummm" in your face but you don't let me do that or "you are dirty to me, I can't get the images out of my head" type things. 

I agree with you, why get married in the first place ?? I have a litany of people I know and work with who are into this (I don't associate with them anymore after they started this) and they are all divorced or miserable. 

The most laughable part is when swingers say "we are loyal and committed to each other and love each other and have great family lives" garbage which to me runs opposite of having another guy bang your wife out whether next to you or not. 

Like you I will never get it nor do I ever want to. if I 'get it', I will check myself into the local mental hospital for observation


----------



## the guy

Who in the hell would share their wife? Hell I won't even share my lawnmower.....

OP if you want something to break loose you have to break it loose and to do that you have to force it...what sucks is in doing this you just might break it so bad it become useless...but I have found that with the right force you can break something looose and it still will work.

You just might try to use some force on your old lady and see if it completely breaks her and you gotta find a new one or she excepts the force and gets back to working again.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Melvynman said:


> Little late to this discussion.
> 
> The word "love" is only about 1500 years old and used in the western world only. We love our cars, dogs and lots of other things. For most couples "love" is a strong emotional attachment with sexual intimacy.
> 
> Your wife loves sex!...thats good for you. You will ruin your marriage if you control her sexuality. If you force her to be monogamous because of your insecurities she will become one the 43% of women in America that are sexually dysfunctional. What separates humans from all most all other animals, we have sex for pure pleasure. Our sexual cultural imprinting is to find the man or women of our dreams and live happily ever after. Divorce, sexless marriages, men and women sexual dysfunctional rates those numbers add up like 80-90% of adults. Nobody really knows the true number.
> 
> Your wife by evolution is a promiscuous animal. She multi-orgasmic and can have sex for hours with several people. She will moan during sex to excite her current partner and others around her. During her life time she will have sexual peaks and at other time have no interest in sexual activity. You (males) are very opportunistic they can hear women moaning better then a baby crying. Males only last a few minutes and are very content after sex. Males will seek sex daily for most of their adult life with willing females.
> 
> Your wife is confusing sex with love and her commitment to you. You and your wife will never have the great sex you had when you first met. Evolution design her to be promiscuous seeking great sex with others. Its the most natural hight in the world. That is why infidelity rates for women are so high. Our sexual culture imprinting, teaches us that great sex must be love... and when the great sex is gone then the love is too!
> 
> Find you and your wife new lovers!... making sure she and you understand you can have great sex without "love" being involved. Keep sex in your life and keep the commitment to each other. Good luck.


Hey, update your misogyny. I laugh every time you post this weird woman blaming stuff, which is based on a 1992 study, that was published in 1999, based on a SURVEY of 3159 men and women. All this does, is show me you do not understand statistical surveys and research. We'll just pretend to ignore the other numbers that show men still cheat more than women. So, using your logic, this means men are promiscuous by evolution.


----------



## vicouple

Hey,
I'm the original author of this post and wanted to post an update as a warning to anyone who may be considering swinging or compromising alternative life styles. If you care at all for your marriage or spending your future with your spouse, stay away!!!! There is nothing good that can come from this. It is attractive fun, but it chocolate covered poison. I've always lived my life in a way that I felt that I could proudly tell my daughters to copy me. When I agreed to going down this dark path, not only did I compromise my relationship with my wife, but also my own personal integrity. 
I have felt strongly conviction to live a life of integrity, to turn my back on this sinful lifestyle, and to live my life, like I always have until this year, with the intent to honor God and love my family and my friends. Clearly I screwed up, but I have taken a stand for what I believe to be the right way to live. This choice has cost me my marriage, who has now ran off with this other couple. Sex and love with many mixed with drugs like extacy is just too much fun to turn away from. 
I know many of the haters on this site will probably spew a bunch more 'you're a loser type messages' that have preceded this one (thanks all for that - very helpful!!!! NOT!), but I'm hoping someone will read this, who is either considering the lifestyle or trying to decide whether to get out. Is it worth losing everything just to have sex with a few hot girls, even if it's your wife's idea? No it's not!!! It's opening Pandora's box and closing that sucker is tougher and tougher the longer it's been open. Don't risk it! Save your marriage.


----------



## bandit.45

I don't see where anyone called you a loser. I see a guy who loved his wife and let her talk him into making some bad decisions. 

Let her go. Let her live her hedonistic life. She'll regret it. Her kids will grow to think of her as a joke. You will come out on top. Divorce her, go for full custody and get this cancerous woman out of your life. Find a new woman who will love you and cherish you.


----------



## anchorwatch

You're not a loser at all! Don't let anyone call you that. You at least see right from wrong now. We all make mistakes in life, the better person corrects them. You understand what a promise is and have the right mindset and to lead this family now. She does not. Now make sure you do the right thing by your family, at least they have you to depend on for a life to emulate. 

"I do not sell out who I am to placate others." Wayne Levine

Good luck to you sir.


----------



## NoChoice

OP, 
I commend you for turning back to your core values and for making the declaration here on TAM. I know this may be hard to hear now but it was destined to happen. Your wife was/is not ready for a mature relationship and may never develop to that point sadly. You are doing the right thing for your daughters and yourself. To quote a famous playwrite "to thine own self be true". All the best to you sir.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

The funny thing about swinging, is that a majority of them turn polyamorous. 

That is the risk.



If you enter the life style, then you have to risk that your spouse will find someone more compatible.

Or, you might turn into their second option.

On reddit, look up from primary to secondary.

Anyways,the op on that site lost his gf to another man. She wanted babies with her new bf instead.She wanted more of a life with her new bf. If she had to choose who she would stay with, she answered the other guy.

It happens.


----------



## dkphap13

bandit.45 said:


> I don't see where anyone called you a loser.


I did not have to read through this entire thred ( even thou I did) to know how degrading some of you can make a person feel like. Some off you did not have to call him a loses but some shore did make him feel like one.


----------



## ThePheonix

I hate to tell you this DK, but folks here have a tendency to tell you exactly what they think. Sometimes a good third party evaluation of how your actions or inactions appear to others is not a bad thing. Using the term "loser" as an example because its being thrown around, if you look like one to the folks here you probably look like one to your spouse/significant other. That ain't a good thing.


----------



## honcho

vicouple said:


> Hey,
> I'm the original author of this post and wanted to post an update as a warning to anyone who may be considering swinging or compromising alternative life styles. If you care at all for your marriage or spending your future with your spouse, stay away!!!! There is nothing good that can come from this. It is attractive fun, but it chocolate covered poison. I've always lived my life in a way that I felt that I could proudly tell my daughters to copy me. When I agreed to going down this dark path, not only did I compromise my relationship with my wife, but also my own personal integrity.
> I have felt strongly conviction to live a life of integrity, to turn my back on this sinful lifestyle, and to live my life, like I always have until this year, with the intent to honor God and love my family and my friends. Clearly I screwed up, but I have taken a stand for what I believe to be the right way to live. This choice has cost me my marriage, who has now ran off with this other couple. Sex and love with many mixed with drugs like extacy is just too much fun to turn away from.
> I know many of the haters on this site will probably spew a bunch more 'you're a loser type messages' that have preceded this one (thanks all for that - very helpful!!!! NOT!), but I'm hoping someone will read this, who is either considering the lifestyle or trying to decide whether to get out. Is it worth losing everything just to have sex with a few hot girls, even if it's your wife's idea? No it's not!!! It's opening Pandora's box and closing that sucker is tougher and tougher the longer it's been open. Don't risk it! Save your marriage.


The two of you screwed up, not just you. Your not a loser and I hope you don't interpret my opinion as the loser type message. Remember your spouse is the one who chose to cross every boundary the two of you had agreed upon to begin with.

You didn't stand a chance in this because your spouse wasn't honest with you for a long time in this game. You didn't want this any longer so you made your stand. She chose to run off to polyland. 

Yes don't risk it but maybe the lesson is when these "great ideas" first come up is to find out what the real motive is because it wasn't your wife pushing limits as you stated in the beginning. Your wife had a different agenda most likely and that's often the case, one spouse has a different agenda or reason for wanting this.


----------



## dkphap13

honcho said:


> The two of you screwed up, not just you. Your not a loser and I hope you don't interpret my opinion as the loser type message. Remember your spouse is the one who chose to cross every boundary the two of you had agreed upon to begin with.
> 
> You didn't stand a chance in this because your spouse wasn't honest with you for a long time in this game. You didn't want this any longer so you made your stand. She chose to run off to polyland.
> 
> Yes don't risk it but maybe the lesson is when these "great ideas" first come up is to find out what the real motive is because it wasn't your wife pushing limits as you stated in the beginning. Your wife had a different agenda most likely and that's often the case, one spouse has a different agenda or reason for wanting this.


Well said


----------



## ToothFairy

"Weird Feeling", "Gone Sour".... Yah THINK?? 
Seriously.. are you for real here? What did you expect? You played with fire and shared your wife with someone. Fantasy is one thing.. but you should have kept it just that. Fantasy.


----------



## LongWalk

Sorry that things are not working out.

What is your next move?


----------



## Chaparral

Put em on cheaterville.com. Blow up their secret life and family busting ways.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Chaparral said:


> Put em on cheaterville.com. Blow up their secret life and family busting ways.


How would that work in this situation? It would be analogous to someone telling the cops that a group of people stole his meth... without the prison time of course.


----------



## Chaparral

Its been awhile, has she left you and the kids?


----------



## Chaparral

Plan 9 from OS said:


> How would that work in this situation? It would be analogous to someone telling the cops that a group of people stole his meth... without the prison time of course.


It works like it always does, man up and tell the truth, testify. I don't agree with swinging but the three of them know what they're doing is breaking up a family for immoral reasons, sex and dope.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Chaparral said:


> It works like it always does, man up and tell the truth, testify. I don't agree with swinging but the three of them know what they're doing is breaking up a family for immoral reasons, sex and dope.


Problem is this isn't clear cut like a normal infidelity situation. The BH in this situation is just as guilty as breaking up the family in my book. When you open up your marriage, all bets are off. It could have been HIM who fell in love with another woman just as likely as the wife. The outcome is horrible all around. Besides, does he really want to broadcast to the world that he engaged in what most people will think of as deviant behavior before it blew up in his face like it did? He's not a sympathetic character. 

The way I would read a CV post like that would be to think of the guy as going to Vegas and losing. Also, it would come across to me as someone who didn't give a fvck about his marriage and family when things were going well for him, why care now?

Ultimately he learned a very hard - and expensive lesson. I feel terrible that it went down this way, but mostly for the kids.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Hmm, It is not exactly playing with fire.

It is like rolling a six sided dice and hoping it lands on 6.

The ones who can make it work are very happy.

I think if you do the whole open marriage thing, you probably have to find someone who won't compete with you.

Your wife is in love with your sense of humor and wit, well if she ran into someone more humorous and witty, the things she found attractive, then all they need is a spark.

I met a guy on another forum, and his wife is allowed to sleep with men her husband doesn't find threatening and she does the same in return.

They made that lifestyle last for 20 years.

They do it once a month per year.


----------



## Lostinthought61

Vic,

you took the right course of action for yourself and your children, a lesson hopefully they will understand later in life...for you it was a self perseveration. I truly wish you well, and i hope that some day you will find happiness in a relationship that is not crowded. Please stay in touch and tell the community how your journey is going.


----------



## ThePheonix

I've run across swingers and wife sharers several times before. It turns out the man always thinks his the captain of that "lifestyle", and has the say-so of where and how it goes. I've got news for you. He ain't the captain. Anybody that gets into those activities needn't expect to have a decent marriage.


----------



## happyman64

Vicouple

Glad you came back and updated your thread.

I pray that you and your girls are in a better, safe place right now and your wife gets her "****" together for your families sake.

HM


----------



## wmn1

VI,

I am glad you are dealing with your problem effectively. 
Thank you for posting your latest post. To me, swinging is never the answer. It causes significant problems and I for one couldn’t even imagine watching my wife get boned by another guy, nor could she imagine it on her end as well. I am a traditionalist who only joined this board recently but have posted against this lifestyle each time it has come up. 
Hearing it from you, who has experienced the pain and suffering resulting from it, I believe will inspire other people who hold thoughts regarding entertaining this lifestyle. Glad you did update us and voice your opinion the way you did and I am sorry for your loss but glad you are rebounding.

Just finish things off decisively


----------



## MattMatt

Plan 9 from OS said:


> How would that work in this situation? It would be analogous to someone telling the cops that a group of people stole his meth... without the prison time of course.


Not at all.

*They had rules, she broke them.*

When there are rules, they *must* be followed by both sides.

When someone breaks those rules, there *must* be consequences.

And exposure could well be one of those consequences.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Ha, it is never that simple. 

Rules are there, but you can't make anyone follow them.

If someone had that love at first sight feeling, and sparks flies, then your in deep trouble.

Even prostitutes fall in love with customers, and that is just based on sex.

You hope that you don't run into one those that will change the nature of your marriage, but it may happen, and since around 20 percent have little or no issues with the llifestyle, it worked for them.

Most that succeed have a rule.

Three times with only a certain person, 

Once a month per year, or you can only do it six times a year.

Then you hope like heck that they don't fall in love.

I read on reddit, of another couple that lasted 10 years before the husband fell in love with a doctor.

Their rule was two weeks out of the year, they are allowed to sleep with others, but he found that game changer, and they divorced.

Funny thing they both are happily married for 10 years to another mate.

So, in that case, they found someone they loved more. 

That is the risk.


----------



## bandit.45

MattMatt said:


> Not at all.
> 
> *They had rules, she broke them.*
> 
> When there are rules, they *must* be followed by both sides.
> 
> When someone breaks those rules, there *must* be consequences.
> 
> And exposure could well be one of those consequences.


Blackjack has rules but it's the House that controls the game. It was the wife controlling the game the whole time. 

I don't understand why OP talked about being a good Christian but stormed off the way he did, or why he thought he was being labelled loser. That's pretty petty behavior. Typical born again churchified...


----------



## anchorwatch

Many of these participants assume that well thought out rules will protect them. They believe that human nature to emotionally bond with those who we share and enjoy sexual fulfilment with, will be overridden by these rules.


----------



## MattMatt

anchorwatch said:


> Many of these participants assume that well thought out rules will protect them. They believe that human nature to emotionally bond with those who we share and enjoy sexual fulfilment with, will be overridden by these rules.


_"But I play by the rules! Why don't other people?"_

Because they aren't you and they have their own agenda.


----------



## MattMatt

bandit.45 said:


> *Blackjack has rules but it's the House that controls the game. It was the wife controlling the game the whole time. *
> 
> I don't understand why OP talked about being a good Christian but stormed off the way he did, or why he thought he was being labelled loser. That's pretty petty behavior. Typical born again churchified...


And it might come as a real shock to realise that the wife was actually playing Poker, when hubby thought it was Blackjack they were playing.


----------



## Married but Happy

anchorwatch said:


> Many of these participants assume that well thought out rules will protect them. They believe that human nature to emotionally bond with those who we share and enjoy sexual fulfilment with, will be overridden by these rules.


You are correct. And many people also assume that well thought out rules will protect them in marriage. Many will be wrong.


----------



## anchorwatch

Married but Happy said:


> You are correct. And many people also assume that well thought out rules will protect them in marriage. Many will be wrong.


QFT!!!

Glad you stepped in MbH. This young couple made a mistake, they need to understand that.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

She could be a love addict. Love is a hormonal high, and she wants more love.

Her brain is probably releasing a lot more hormones when she is loved by two people. Her husband can't match that feeling.

She gets more of that romantic high.

Polyamory marriage lasts about six years, that is done by a polyamorist therapist who lives on the west coast.

Well the research was done only in a few communities, but they are about the same.

No clue, if the stats are different on the east side.


----------



## Thundarr

bandit.45 said:


> I don't understand why OP talked about being a good Christian but stormed off the way he did, or why he thought he was being labelled loser. That's pretty petty behavior. Typical born again churchified...


You've got high expectations for a guy who's wife just left him and who already feels guilt for compromising his principles. Almost all of the comments were supportive and respectful but a few were condescending jabs. None of yours were. Given the circumstances, I would think he's too passive if he didn't let some comments rub him wrong.


----------



## NoChoice

You know what, if I am going to play such a daring game with my wife and marriage that I need a rule book then I believe that is a game best left unplayed.


----------



## vellocet

Rules? Phffft. I have always thought the notion of "rules" in swinging were ridiculous.

Either you let your spouse F other people, or you don't.


----------



## wmn1

NoChoice said:


> You know what, if I am going to play such a daring game with my wife and marriage that I need a rule book then I believe that is a game best left unplayed.


It's funny how swingers break all the rules to enter the lifestyle, then feel principled enough to play by the rules in their new one. If they break them the first time, they are going to break them again.


----------



## badkarma2013

anchorwatch said:


> Many of these participants assume that well thought out rules will protect them. They believe that human nature to emotionally bond with those who we share and enjoy sexual fulfilment with, will be overridden by these rules.


HOW TRUE!!

If rules,vows,boundaries and the like Worked ...NONE OF US WOULD BE HERE...and this site would not exist.....

The simple fact is Most people are( WH and WWs ) capable of the most vile and hurtful behavior known to any BS...

They do it because THEY LIKE IT...and Most would not stop if they had not been caught or the BS is informed..


----------



## ThePheonix

vellocet said:


> Rules? Phffft. I have always thought the notion of "rules" in swinging were ridiculous.
> 
> Either you let your spouse F other people, or you don't.


If you're in a marriage where you need the excitement of banging others or worse, watching someone bang your spouse you don't have a marriage to begin with. What's the difference between one or both having someone on the side and swinging?


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## MattMatt

ThePheonix said:


> If you're in a marriage where you need the excitement of banging others or worse, watching someone bang your spouse you don't have a marriage to begin with. What's the difference between one or both having someone on the side and swinging?


I cannot begin to imagine the swinging lifestyle being even the tiniest bit enjoyable.


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## LongWalk

vellocet said:


> Rules? Phffft. I have always thought the notion of "rules" in swinging were ridiculous.
> 
> Either you let your spouse F other people, or you don't.


There are people who make it work. When I was around 24 I met a couple travelling. The wife took a liking to me and one night she came to my room in the hotel. It was obvious what she wanted. After she knew I was willing she said she had to get her husband's permission. She went to their room and soon returned with a grin.

The sex was good. Half way through the night she started to leave but half awake I held on to her and she stayed until morning.

She explained that they had married young, so they agreed to have an open marriage so that they would not feel that they have never experienced sex with others.

Years later by pure coincidence we met again briefly in elevator in NYC. But we did not start anything, just said: "It's you. Hello and goodbye."

And then after Facebook became widespread she asked to be friends. Last summer while visiting NYC my Dthen16, her husband, she and I had dinner. After dinner we went to their apartment and looked through a telescope. First time I ever saw Jupiter. First and only "open" marriage experience.

They had two grown sons who had graduated from college. So, swinging or an open marriage need not be a disaster. She told me that she had gone outside of their marriage more than he had. However, once they had kids they ended the open marriage deal.

Clearly, open marriages and swinging are very dangerous for weak marriages.

Hope OP is okay.


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## Iver

What's the custody situation? 

Are your daughters old enough to understand what is going on?


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## NoChoice

I fail to understand the term "open marriage". Isn't marriage, by definition, an exclusive joining of two hearts into one? Isn't an "open marriage" an oxymoron?

I mean I understand an "open relationship" wherein each couple, o oor trio, o oo ooor quartet or whatever, make certain rules to govern their cohabitation? Why involve marriage? Why make a vow to be devoted to one when there will be others? I mean it's like a dry martini...shouldn't that come in powder form. I'm just sayin.


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## Thundarr

badkarma2013 said:


> HOW TRUE!!
> 
> If rules,vows,boundaries and the like Worked ...NONE OF US WOULD BE HERE...and this site would not exist.....
> 
> The simple fact is Most people are( WH and WWs ) capable of the most vile and hurtful behavior known to any BS...
> 
> They do it because THEY LIKE IT...and Most would not stop if they had not been caught or the BS is informed..


Boundaries indeed work if you police them and stiffening up when boundaries are tested make you exponentially more influential to everyone around you and exponentially more attractive to the opposite sex. The flip side is that not policing boundaries make you exponentially more taken for granted by those around you and unattractive to the opposite sex.

I don't know much but I do know this.


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## ThePheonix

NoChoice said:


> I fail to understand the term "open marriage".


The only way I'd go for that is if she were a billionaire and I had an unlimited allowance.


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## LongWalk

Once the WW realizes that her life is blown up, she may want to R. The best thing now is to 180/go dark and escape her residual clutches.


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## wmn1

Longwalk, I am confused. These people you referenced ended their open relationship but then the four of you swung last year in NYC ?


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## Chaparral

I don't understand what's going on now. Are you separated? Custody?


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## Nucking Futs

wmn1 said:


> Longwalk, I am confused. These people you referenced ended their open relationship but then the four of you swung last year in NYC ?


I'm pretty sure Longwalk wouldn't be swinging with his 16 year old daughter.


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## Mr.Fisty

Nucking Futs said:


> I'm pretty sure Longwalk wouldn't be swinging with his 16 year old daughter.


Unless it is a bat at those pesky boys.


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## badkarma2013

Thundarr said:


> Boundaries indeed work if you police them and stiffening up when boundaries are tested make you exponentially more influential to everyone around you and exponentially more attractive to the opposite sex. The flip side is that not policing boundaries make you exponentially more taken for granted by those around you and unattractive to the opposite sex.
> 
> I don't know much but I do know this.




****Boundaries ONLY WORK when the other party RESPECTS them and YOU...When Respect is gone ...so are the Boundaries...I dont care who you are......


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## wmn1

sorry didn't know Dthen16 meant his daughter. Now I get it. Ouch !!!!


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## treyvion

ThePheonix said:


> If you're in a marriage where you need the excitement of banging others or worse, watching someone bang your spouse you don't have a marriage to begin with. What's the difference between one or both having someone on the side and swinging?


I think to them it's not "worse", it excites them. Most downplay the role of bonding hormones through repeated conjugations.


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## vellocet

LongWalk said:


> Clearly, open marriages and swinging are very dangerous for weak marriages.


I actually think they are dangerous to strong marriages and more suited for weak marriages.

In a strong marriage, the spouses hold to the principles of marriage. That includes "forsaking all others". But then again, anyone in a strong marriage wouldn't even let swinging enter their mind.

Whereas a weak marriage where the spouses do not want to adhere to the principles of marriage, need something like F'ing other people to make it tolerable.


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## bandit.45

vellocet said:


> I actually think they are dangerous to strong marriages and more suited for weak marriages.
> 
> In a strong marriage, the spouses hold to the principles of marriage. That includes "forsaking all others".
> 
> Whereas a weak marriage where the spouses do not want to adhere to the principles of marriage, need something like F'ing other people to make it tolerable.


:iagree: something fundementally is wrong with the relationship, not just the marriage. Generally it's one non-monogamous person married to a monogamous person and the monogamous person going along with what the other wants out of fear of losing them. 

Yeah. Fun marriage there.


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## Thundarr

badkarma2013 said:


> ****Boundaries ONLY WORK when the other party RESPECTS them and YOU...When Respect is gone ...so are the Boundaries...I dont care who you are......


We're talking semantics maybe. An actual boundary from a relationship standpoint is something that when the other party continually crosses then you choose to not be with that other person and you still have the boundary. It's choosing how you let others treat you and if they will not do that then we choose to not be around that person.

You say if the other person doesn't respect it then the boundary is gone. I say if we stay with someone who does whatever they want to then it was never a boundary to begin with. It was a rule and they chose not to follow it.


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## LongWalk

wmn1 said:


> Longwalk, I am confused. These people you referenced ended their open relationship but then the four of you swung last year in NYC ?


NuckingFuts is correct. I would have never taken my daughter around to visit if it weren't purely social. The couple have not been in an open marriage since they had children over 20 years ago.

My point was that their marriage survived a non-exclusive arrangement. They had rules. They had to seek permission before having sex with someone else. They respected that as far as I know.


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## NoChoice

But in order to be in an "open" marriage do you not have to break the first "rule" of marriage??? So once the first boundary is crossed then isn't it easy to cross others? It's beyond me anyway.


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## wmn1

I agree NoChoice. They had to break rules to create other ones. Most marriages that are 'open' fail based on healthy jealousy and boundary crossing. I am surprised any survive at all. 

And Longwalk, I posted that I misread your first post. I didn't read that it was your daughter you had with you up in new York. It looked like some screenname of someone else. That's why I was confused.


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## Mr.Fisty

I think it depends on who you sleep with.

When sex happens, there is very little bonding hormones happening.

When the attraction is strong, and the sex is great, a lot more bonding hormones are released.

If they are more compatible than the original spouse, then you have trouble.

Some probably do have more compatibility with their new partner, but they fear losing what is at home, for an unknown.

Some say f it and blam, marriage is in jeopardy.


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## Mr.Fisty

In the case of this thread, the wife was more compatible with the couple.

For her it was a better option.


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