# About ready to quit



## losinglove (Dec 8, 2009)

She just called me at work. Says she is so mad at him that he can't even just check to see how she is.

I told her I can't deal with this right now and she got upset at me :scratchhead:

She knows I have been doing a lot of reading and thinking and some posting. So, she tells me (summarized) Books and all those sites and experts don't have all the answers. 99% of the time they are right but I think I am that 1%. I pride myself on doing things out of the norm. 

One of her favorite things to say is "Knowledge is power". I guess that only applies when the source agrees with her.

I'm just tired and frustrated and want to say screw it, lets just end it now.


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## Ted (Mar 2, 2009)

Let me get this straight. She is upset that the OM is not contacting her? 

From your other posts I thought you demanded for not contact too? Or was it only that there was no contact because the OM's wife knows, and logistically the OM is overseas?

If you haven't demanded it from her you need too. She will never be invested in your marriage if she is still trying (no matter how unsuccessfully) to be in contact with him.

I think you need to be blunt with her how you feel "about ready to quit." Is she aware of that? Because if not, she really needs this wake up call.

And what is it about your situation that makes her feel she is in the 1%?


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## losinglove (Dec 8, 2009)

You got it, I'm actually surprised she hasn't tried to contact him yet. After he told her the first time not to contact him, she set up another email address with a guys name. I just found this one a couple days ago.

I have told her several times that she cannot have contact with him. 

I guess that is what I am going to have to do. It is going to be a lllllllllloooooonnnnnnnggggg weekend.

I don't know. When I was reading Surviving an Affair and reading about Jon and Sue, I was like holy crap that is us. I think I'll point that out too.


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## losinglove (Dec 8, 2009)

And I was having a pretty good day until then 

I hate this rollercoaster.


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## Ted (Mar 2, 2009)

Well the good news is that either way there is no contact right now, so that is positive. It at least provides you with the opportunity to meet her needs that you have not been up until the affair.

I know you said you are about ready to quit. But is there an amount of time you are willing to put in an effort to fill up her "love bank." (I know right now she doesn't deserve it, nor do you probably feel like doing it, so what you have to ask yourself is do you want to exhaust every opportunity before giving up on your marriage.) Figure out how long that would be. I know Dr. Harley suggested 6 months, but the important thing is having a point to look forward to when you have days like this. 

Even after that time there is still hope for your marriage. You may have to move to the step of separating, but with no contact from the OM and without you, she hopefully will see what she would be losing in her life without you.

If conversations are just too painful right now, try to keep giving her whatever positive love you can through letters or texts. This might come easier at first.

I hope this helps and I really feel for you. I know right now this sucks, and I wouldn't wish it on anyone.


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## losinglove (Dec 8, 2009)

Thanks Ted and Luv


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

losinglove, 

I want you to know a few things, okay? First, I have been following along, and just to make sure I have it all straight, the OM has asked your W to stop contacting him a couple times and in the past your W has been the one making the contact. OM's W knows and both he and OM's W want your W to leave him alone...but she had kept contacting. You found out about the A and asked her to stop contact, and she hasn't contacted him but today she's mad cuz "he can't be bothered to even ask how she is." 

AND she thinks those who give advice might be right for everyone else's marriage but she's that elusive 1% special so don't listen to "them." Right? 

(Okay first :lol: Sorry. I love Disloyals!)

First, I would like to lovingly encourage you and hope you'll realize that actually your W and her A are not "special" or in some elusive 1% but actually fairly typical. If you've been reading "Surviving an Affair" then I hope you realize that the OM met some needs for your W (I call those Love Kindlers--because they added kindling to her love fire). So far, it sounds like she keeps trying to get those met from him and is not quite ready to face the pain of withdrawal. In her head, she very likely thinks "Well hubby didn't meet that need and I won't go back to living like that!" and if she admits that it's over with her and OM she may think that need will never be met. Sooo..she's hanging on.

This has got to be a gigantic Love Extinguisher for you because she keeps thinking of the OM and hurting you all over the place! However rather than quitting, I would encourage you to take a nice night to do something surprising and fun. Surprise her and take her out tonight--to YOUR favorite restaurant just because you like it there. Maybe ask "Hey honey, tonight rather than relationship talks and all that, can we just hang out and watch (insert your favorite movie here)." 

See, you've been working and working and working for your marriage, and that's cool! Want to encourage you to continue! :thumbsup: But in so doing, you are human too and ya need a little something for you that's just plain FUN so you can refuel. So take off your "End the Affair" belt tonight and put on your "Play and have some FUN with my W" belt and just... kick it a little. Okay? 

P.S. I'm not saying to go off for "Boys Night Out" or do something without her--just for once let your hair down a little and do something you both consider fun.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Oh DUH--one more note. 

One thing my Dear Hubby did that really helped me was to put down his own little hurts and things temporarily and told me that he would be my friend. Well, I thought, "Okay...let's just see if he means it" and so I'd share with him if something hurt me or if I was discouraged/bummed/hurting etc. And what he did was act like a "counselor" and not like it was directed at him to hurt him. Does that make sense? Like put on that bit of padded suit and show her you CAN be her friend and care that she is hurting. That makes a LOT of difference if you can do it. 

Also, now is a GREAT time to step up and be sure you're doing a great job meeting her needs (as best as you know what they are). Take time to really listen to her and talk to her too! Do small romantic things that are courteous not always sexy. That also will show her that when she does let go and fall, she has a safe place to land.


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## losinglove (Dec 8, 2009)

Thanks Affaircare
You have the story pretty good. 

Yes, I have been reading SaA, going through a second time. I reading SaA, Jon and Sue are her and me. It was like reading my story. I kind of laughed when she talked about the 1% thing also (not out loud).



> This has got to be a gigantic Love Extinguisher for you because she keeps thinking of the OM and hurting you all over the place!


Yea, that really gets me. I do need that "refueling", especially the last couple days. 

I have been trying to meet her needs as best I can and know them, when she lets me. I guess that is one thing I forget sometimes, to just be her friend right now is probably more important than being her husband. She has told me several times she wishes I was two people, one to be her friend and one she could be mad at and talk to the other me about.

Thanks everyone for the encouragement.


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## losinglove (Dec 8, 2009)

One other thing. One thing that makes her comment about all these experts and people giving advice even funnier. Once I got the 2x4 therapy I started trying to meet the needs I knew about. It wasn't until last week I got SaA, and read it. Hmmm. I was trying to do what the experts said. 

I know things are very rough right now, but looking back they are better than four months ago. She actually comes to bed and snuggles up to me sometimes. The sexy things are not really happening right now.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

losinglove said:


> Thanks Affaircare
> You have the story pretty good.


I'm glad--close enough for hand grenades and horseshoes anyway, huh? :lol:



> Yes, I have been reading SaA, going through a second time. I reading SaA, Jon and Sue are her and me. It was like reading my story. I kind of laughed when she talked about the 1% thing also (not out loud).


Yeah for me that's actually one of the hardest things to do (although I try not to let on). Each couple this happens to almost universally thinks beforehand: "Oh that could never happen to us. Our marriage is special" but they don't really put the effort in required to keep it affair-free. Then when it hits, almost to a T each couple thinks: "But you don't understand! Our situation is unique from every other affair!" and almost to a T each disloyal thinks: "Well I know my OP has been unfaithful with 3 other people before but that won't happen to us. Our love is special!" 

I hope it doesn't hurt your feelings to know that actually what you are feeling and what she is doing and saying is fairly normal--or at least within the realm of "to be expected."



> Yea, that really gets me. I do need that "refueling", especially the last couple days.


When I've had a couple rough days working with people or a sitch that hits a nerve or close to home--I find that a good viewing of "Zombieland" does it for me :lol: I mean it's got it all! Zombies, comedy, a brain-eating clown, Bill Murray and a little romance! 



> I have been trying to meet her needs as best I can and know them, when she lets me. I guess that is one thing I forget sometimes, to just be her friend right now is probably more important than being her husband. She has told me several times she wishes I was two people, one to be her friend and one she could be mad at and talk to the other me about.


Okay I'll share with you a dumb trick I do that may work for you. When I know I'm going to have to go into that mode where I'm the one being talked about but not take it personally, just listen, I put on a necklace that has a big old wolf's head on it so that it hangs right at my heart. That it like my "heart shield" and then I listen as if was the person's college-roommate best-friends-for-life friend. Know what I mean? (That friend who is closer than a brother and has seen you at your best and worst and still likes you and really, really cares.) I envision the wolf defending my heart, and that way I can hear the person and also almost take it like they are talking about some other person (not me). This helps me not be so hurt or sensitive, and helps that person feel like they can be honest and someone cares about them a lot. It's just a way of visualizing it, but hey  it works for me. Maybe you could get a deputy shield, and when you put that on you step out of "husband" and into friend mode and it shields your heart. 

I suspect it really would help a lot if you could be your W's friend right now and not (only) her husband. I know this is asking a lot of you, but in a very real way she's going to feel a loss somewhat similar to a death. Now granted, it will be the withdrawal symptoms from the "love zings" she was getting from the affair, but it made her feel young, alive, desirable, wanted! Now she'll feel frumpy, lonely, old and bumpy, unwanted and friendless and that actually does hurt. So try to imagine helping your best buddy through the death of a family member. 

And all kinds of heavily romantic stuff probably is not cool, but the occasional nice, thoughtful or courteous thing would be cool I'll bet ya! Like bringing home takeout... or renting a movie she wanted to watch "just cuz"... saying please and thank you... the hug for no reason... just see her and smile You know nothing big, but those nice pleasantries you do to be polite. 



> Thanks everyone for the encouragement.


You're welcome. So go get tickets to a comedy show or take her out boot scooting. Have fun!


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## losinglove (Dec 8, 2009)

OK, I am going to break this up into a couple posts.

I know it is Thursday but here is my weekend, tried to make it a fun one instead of a long one.

Saturday - We both slept in a little. Woke up and just talked about anything, how nutz our parents are, funny things the kids do, how smart they are etc. Nothing too serious.

I wanted to take her out to dinner and maybe do something else (movie walk around the mall, whatever). We left about 7:30 and went and walked around the mall. We had a good time. Went to the Disney store and got Phineas and Ferb dolls, and Perry (can't forget Perry), for the kids for Easter. She wanted to go in Victoria's Secret, so we did. We got to the back of the store and she gave me one of those smiles and said "How uncomfortable are you now?". Told her not much and picked up something very sexy held it up to myself and said "What do you think?" She just laughed. We walked around the mall a little more until it closed.

I had a couple ideas of where to go for dinner but asked her where she would like to go. I was thinking someplace quiet, just so we could talk without a lot of backgroud noise. She said actually, she would like to get something and just sit in the car and eat. So, that's what we did. Went to Chick-Fil-A got our food and found a parking space away from most of the other cars. We had a good time just sitting there enjoying each others company. She said next time we should move the seats forward and sit in the back so we could be closer. (Our car has a console in the front between the seats)

Sunday - We slept in again. The inlaws took the kids to a movie. She had this look on her face like she wanted to say something so I asked her. She said she didn't want to hurt me, and after my reaction the other day was a little afraid to. I asked her one last time to talk to me, didn't want to push it too much. So she sat on the bed and leaned up against me and began to talk. 

I put on my heart protection and just listened (thanks for the idea Affaircare, Question about this later). I did not say anything while she was talking, just listened. The short version _my thoughts later, not part of the actual day_: 
1. She didn't want to lose me. She said she literally could not go on if I was not in her life. Not even the kids could keep her around.
2. She said she does not believe a person can actually change. They can make small changes, but who they are is not going to change._I disagree, if someone can't change what is the point of trying?_
3. She really does not want to go to marriage counseling. Does not want to bring up all the details of the past, for either of us. _I can't say I disagree, plus it does not seem to me that counseling is all that effective for most and does more damage. Am I wrong?_
4. She wants to repair our marriage, but is not sure she can get past the pain and hurt I have caused her by not meeting her needs. And she said she doesn't really know what her needs are.
5. THis one kind of goes with the counseling one. She said she does not want to follow someones "plan". Do this for X amount of time then do this etc. She also commented that being the person she is she would probably do whatever she could to make sure the plan didn't work._why would you intentionally sabotage something that could make things better, unless you don't really want to make it better?_

She was feeling tense after so I suggested she take a bath. She did, a nice long one. After an hour or so I went over to the side of the tub, got down and gave her a kiss. She just smiled and we held each others's hand for a while. Then she asked me if I wanted to join her in the tub. OK, now picture this - I am 6'4", my wife is 6' (oh sorry 5'11.5" ) and our tub is a standard size. A little cramped, but we fit. I slid in behind her and she lesned back against me and I just held her for a while. At one point she looked up/back at me and I kissed her and softly told her I loved her and she just smiled. I got out shortly after that because I could no longer feel my legs.

Later we went food shoping together and had a quiet evening with the kids.


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## losinglove (Dec 8, 2009)

Now, a couple things that kind of bothered me about the weekend that she did. Any advice on what to do is appreciated. 

Saturday before we went out she checked the OM's wife's FB page. I guess it was her birthday and the OM sent her flowers, a necklace and something else. My wife was really upset about it, but said she wanted us to have a good time together. She obviously does not like the wife and thinks she is evil.

I told her to stop checking her page. I thought about sending the wife a message to block my wife.

The one other thing was Sunday. Before we went shopping she got on FB to delete a bunch of friends (not the bad part) and while on there sent the OM's wife a message saying something to the effect of 'Just wanted to let you know that he told me you were separated and were getting a divorce and that he persued her.' OM's wife responded later with 'I pray you learned something from this. Don't believe what men say. Don't contact us again.' as well as some other stuff.

Now the OM had an affair before with some other woman and told her that he was separated. This seems to be a pattern with him.

On these types of things should I listen to her but let it go? Is this part of the fog?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Ok, I'm going to be the rude one. I always advocate standing up for yourself, because I believe that, nowadays, we are taught to 'put up' with stuff. We Givers, that is. While the Takers take whatever the hell they want, and then wonder why we are hurt.

The more you Give to her, understand her, LET her moan about OM and CHECK his/her FB page, the less she respects and wants you.

I'm sorry, but there it is. 

You HAVE to have boundaries. You HAVE to respect yourself. 

Yes, you should love her and be patient. TO AN EXTENT.

That extent DOES NOT INCLUDE letting her check his FB page. Or his wife's.

COME ON! How big of a wuss do you want to be?

YOU WILL WAIT FOR HER TO FEEL THE LOVE AGAIN AS LONG AS SHE STOPS CONTACT WITH HIM.

PERIOD.

It does NOT include letting her go look him up to see what he is up to. Either she chooses you or she chooses divorce.


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## losinglove (Dec 8, 2009)

That is what I told her tonight Turnera. She needs to stop anything to do with him. She got pissed at me. Not surprised  Will she listen to me? Probably not.

She is also sick, has been on a strong antibiotic for a couple days. Dr only gave her 3 days worth, so it is a really strong one. I told her if she is not feeling better we need to go to the Dr again tomorrow. She got pissed and said "How about we do what I want to do? You say that and it is like a timeline and if your not feeling better by then your on your own." I just looked straight at her and calmly said "I'm not saying that at all. I just don't want you to be in pain. I want you to feel better." Then she said, now I feel like I upset you. Told her I wasn't upset or hurt or anything, just wanted her to feel better.

Didn't think you were rude


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## losinglove (Dec 8, 2009)

Affaircare, question on the heart guardian (can I copyright that ). I have no problem if I am given 2 seconds to prepare. The other day she caught me completely off guard and that is when it nailed me. I will keep the guardian up all the time if I need, but that can get exhausting.

Any ideas on handling that situation?


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## losinglove (Dec 8, 2009)

Question about something she said.

The other day she said to me again that She cannot go on without me in her life, that not even the kids could keep her here.

Is this one of those things that is said to kind of keep you on the hook or am I reading too much into it?:scratchhead:
If she really means it, it worries me.

I am becoming more concerned about her every day as her world comes crashing down. 
a) his wife finds out
b) he says not to contact him anymore
c) a chaplain that is a friend of the OM she has been talking to tells her she knows what she is doing is wrong for everyone involved and she needs to seek counseling.

(these are not in any order)
d) I am trying to be a better man/husband/father, which is completely throwing her for a loop. 
e) I am setting some boundaries in regard to the OM and what we can talk about WRT him, which she continues to try to get around.

She says she honestly didn't think I would notice or care if she even just left.

I am doing my best to be supportive of her but not her actions, which is really hard to separate sometimes because she switches so quick.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I think the root of your situation can be found here:


> 3. She really does not want to go to marriage counseling. Does not want to bring up all the details of the past, for either of us.
> 4. She wants to repair our marriage, but is not sure she can get past the pain and hurt I have caused her by not meeting her needs. And she said she doesn't really know what her needs are.
> 5. THis one kind of goes with the counseling one. She said she does not want to follow someones "plan".


Your wife is one big ball of FEELING right now. Not thinking, just feeling. She's just bouncing all over the place, kind of like a person in a perpetual panic attack. It's like she's having an identity crisis.

I think that, in order for your marriage to move forward and get out of this standstill, she needs to address this. 

And you two, as lay people, simply are not qualified to do so. You didn't go to university for at least 5 or more years of studying about people and psychological issues to be able to counsel people. Professionals did. 

I honestly don't see you two getting anywhere unless you find some way to bring this conversation back around to using the services of people professionally trained to look at your marriage and help you find solutions that you will BOTH like and BOTH benefit from.

If I were in your shoes, this is the direction I'd start heading in. If nothing else, get her to read SAA, and some of Dr Harley's other books.


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## losinglove (Dec 8, 2009)

Thanks Turnera. 



> Your wife is one big ball of FEELING right now.


that's her...

She takes pills for depression and anxiety right now, as well as other things.

I have asked her to talk to someone. All she does is get mad at me, says "all I want is a shoulder to lean on". She says that is one of the things that drove her away. I feel like even when I try to help, it doesn't help. At one point I was so tired of it I just told her to take a pill. Now that is one of my sheety things I did. Yea, not a great moment for me.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I understand that she doesn't want to. 

What YOU have to decide is what you're willing to accept in your marriage.

Can you see living with this woman, like this - or worse - for the next 40 years?

You have to decide what YOU need. If I were in your shoes, I would simply state that seeking counseling would be REQUIRED for both of us, if we are going to move forward in this marriage.

That's a boundary. No marriage after adultery without professional counseling. Period.


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## losinglove (Dec 8, 2009)

I am already in counseling for some PTSD issues and we kind of rolled this in.

She has been to counseling before and it really tore her apart. I think that is where her bias against it comes from. In some ways she is better, in some ways she is worse.

Thanks again, this is going to be a tough one, but I WILL work towards it.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Funny thing about counseling. You go thinking "I'll go and in two or three sessions this person will have only my side of the facts, be able to tell the real truth, advise me what to do, and fix my problems." :lol: Usually the problems are from decades of issues piling up, so they can't be fixed in one or two sessions. 

What happens is that you start counseling--you get to the really deep, scary stuff...and right about then quit because it's hurting. Then you go around saying, "I tried counseling. It didn't work. It made me hurt worse. But I tried it!" To really, really have counseling HELP, you have to stick it out through the deep, scary stuff...let it hurt you a little...address the hurt and do something different...then learn a whole new way of dealing with the new stuff that comes up. 

From everything you've said about your W, she very much *NEEDS* therapy and is doing everything she possibly can to run away from it. In fact, she may very well need individual therapy AND marriage counseling because they aren't the same, you know? One would address her individual issues and fears and things...marriage counseling would address how she relates, acts, and is in a marriage. 

In this instance, I hear here not facing the fact that the OM no longer wants to be in the relationship, running away from the fact that others are telling her its wrong, avoiding the fact that his wife knows now...just on and on. Here's the sitch in a nutshell. In order to be with you, she has the FACE the facts, FACE the mess she made, and FACE the scary stuff in counseling. Now that's not to say you're going to "make her" do those things, but here's the choice: 

1) keep running away from everything and denying what happened and she'll also lose you.

2) stop running away, face the mess and the counseling, fix the marriage, and work a plan that has actually worked in order to be with you.

Does that make sense?

**********

P.S. I speak as someone who survived serious physical abuse as a child and PTSD; and physically, mentally, emotionally and verbally abusive first marriage. I've had my share of therapy and survived the scary part...so I've experienced what she's running away from.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I so agree!

Honestly, your marriage is not going to survive without her facing her demons.


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## losinglove (Dec 8, 2009)

Thank you both. I understand what you are saying and have not been arguing with you. 

I'm sitting here with tears going down my face. Something that has only happened one other time since they gave me meds for the ptds. :'|


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

You know, you are here, now, in this present time safe and sound. Can you smell dinner cooking? Here birds outside? Can you feel the softness of a teddy bear or hear the sound of a good song you can cry/sing along with. Be HERE losinglove--you aren't back there anymore--and use your sense to bring you back here.


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## losinglove (Dec 8, 2009)

Actually, I'm sitting at a bus stop inhaling exhaust fumes waiting for my wife to come pick me up. 

I know what your saying. Thanks.

I'm looking forward to a good weekend. Kids have solo and ensemble tomorrow, so a full day there.


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## losinglove (Dec 8, 2009)

Actually, I'm sitting at a bus stop inhaling exhaust fumes waiting for my wife to come pick me up. 

I know what your saying. Thanks.

I'm looking forward to a good weekend. Kids have solo and ensemble tomorrow, so a full day there.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Well nothing brings ya back to reality quicker than sucking bus exhaust! Yay experience THAT  

So tomorrow, solo and ensemble--let go of all these issues and enjoy the performances and enjoy that moment, and maybe let your wife know that if she chooses to face her demons and go to counseling, that you can "be there for her" and help her get through the scary stuff to the helpful part.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You know what's crazy? My favorite #1 smell in the world is bus fumes! lol

When I was really little, 2 or 3, we took a bus trip across the country to see family; I still remember the underground bus depot.


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## losinglove (Dec 8, 2009)

I prefer diesel 

When she came to pick me up Friday she told me she sent OM a package. She said there was no feeling in it though, just stuff to pass out to his guys. Then she asked if we could make a couple stops on the way home. We did, stopped at 3 or 4 places to return stuff she bought for OM that I had no idea about. Probably about $50-$60 worth of stuff. One was a really nice MP3 player. Later that evening I told her yet again she needs to stop contacting him, he has asked you and I am asking you, 

Had a nice family weekend but I could tell she would drift out now and then. I would just reach over and rub her back or her leg depending on where we were. That usually prompted a smile or a head on my shoulder. Sunday we went to the mall, Older kids wanted to get a couple things, youngest wanted to ride the carossel. As we were walking along she reached over and held mmy hand.

Yesterday she called me and I could tell she was upset. Said she was having a sad day and that she wishes she could talk to him one last time to get some closure. She had to go but immediatly emailed me saying sorry about saying something to me. Told her it was ok, she is hurting and I am glad she did. Then last night she told me I'm done sending him stuff, but you can. YEA RIGHT!!! I didn't say anything but she knew that has a snowball's chance in hell of happening

This morning instead of getting up when the alarm went off she curled up to me. We hit the snooze 4 or 5 times. When she dropped me off at the bus she stopped me gave me a kiss then said I love you. I looked at her kind of shocked and she just smiled. Replied I love you too.

I know we have a long way to go but thought this is a good start. Maybe I am also a little cautious that she is just acting. We'll see, I'm encouraged, guarded, but encouraged.


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## losinglove (Dec 8, 2009)

I took the personality test that had been mentioned in some of the other threads. Result: ISTJ

I actually took it a few days ago, then as an experiment took it again this morning.

very expressed introvert
slightly expressed sensing personality
very expressed thinking personality
distinctively expressed judging personality/moderately expressed judging personality

Distinctively expressed judging is from a few days ago and moderately expressed judging is from this morning.


Any guesses what my job is and who I work for?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

CIA?

No, wait. IRS?


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## losinglove (Dec 8, 2009)

Well it is government. I work at a national lab. I work with computers all day long in a dark cave (not really a dark cave, but no windows).


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I used to work at NASA, and the tin building I was in had only one window, and I fought like crazy to be able to sit under it.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

losinglove~

I see you lurking around the forum. Any chance you'd tell us how you're doing?


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## losinglove (Dec 8, 2009)

Honestly, I'm feeling pretty sick. I have this very uneasy feeling she is going to tell me she wants a divorce and wants to be with him only.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

But correct me if I'm wrong... he doesn't want to be with HER right? And has repeatedly asked her to stop contacting him. She's likely to be slapped with a restraining order....

What's been going on that you have this feeling? Anything specific? Seriously I'd like to know how you're doing if you're up to saying. If not, it's cool just say so.


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## losinglove (Dec 8, 2009)

I don't know if I would go as far as to say he doesn't want to be with her. It is more like, he doesn't want to lose his kids so he is trying to work things out with his wife. He was so sure she would dump him after this affair. On the other hand maybe he doesn't. He has had one other affair (that my wife knows about) and from what my wife said he told the other other woman the same story he told my wife, that he and his wife were separated. 

Yes he has asked her to stop contacting him. It may take a restraining order, don't know if he would do it but his W would. I am pretty sure she has set up another email address and is trying to contact him on his .mil address since his wife will probably not have access to that one. It's like she wants what she wants and does not care who she hurts to get it. She has this fantasy that they will get married and them and the kids will live happily ever after. But then there are times she seems really clear headed and knows that is just a fantasy and she should stay with me.

Ok, I know everyone says not to do this, but a few days ago I emailed OM to say to him I didn't want him contacting her for any reason. I know not as good as her doing it. 

His response: 



> I have no intention of contacting her. I will respect your wishes.
> Thanks for the tip on the website. I have also been reading the Every
> Man series of books. That has helped as well. D


I sent him the marriagebuilders site (sorry AC, forgot about yours at the time  ).

He has said both to me and W that he wishes we could get things going between us again. Has suggested counseling and stuff. I don't know what to think about him, seems like he wants to do the right thing, but is caught up in his own situation. Guess it doesn't really matter.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Do you ever take your wife's breath away?


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

Why would a person want to be with another person that has admittedly had repeated affairs. Do they REALLY think they won't be the next? Or is a desire to find somebody to have an open marriage with?


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## losinglove (Dec 8, 2009)

I guess I didn't answer your second question Affaircare. I don't know, just a gut feeling I had. I say had because after I posted that she came to bed and we talked a little. 

Summary:
I asked her what she wanted. She said just what I told you earlier. We would be married and happy and I could have D as a friend.
We talked a little more about that then I told her "I love you". She said I know, I still love you, it's just clouded by all the blackness of the hurt, frustration and anger. 

We got married soon after she graduated college, I was still in the military. She told me looking back that was a good thing because she probably would not be around today if she had to go back to live with her parents. (background: her father abused her)

It was getting really late so we decided to get some sleep. She didn't want me to touch her or anything. Told her ok, I'm right here if you need anything.


As for how am I doing. ok most days. I am working hard on trying to improve myself and meet her needs that I can figure out. The rest I kind of shotgun. I think she is finally understanding that these changes are not a temporary thing and that I am really working hard, but she is still cautious. I think one of the things that really got her to understant that is she told me she wasn't sure I was being real. I told her I know I screwed up, didn't keep my vows to you. I am doing this because I want to repair our marriage. If for some reason we don't work out, I want to make sure my next relationship is strong. She said I know you are trying really hard, that is why I am still here. Every two or three weeks I just feel like crap, like what's the point. I know at those times I need to "recharging of the batteries" and try to head it off before it gets too bad. 

One of the "paybacks" is not just with her. With the changes in myself I am enjoying doing things with the kids more and even though they have not said anything, I think they are noticing a happier me. 


Turnera, I like to think I do. I am doing little things I used to do. Buy flowers at odd times, write "love" messages on the bathroom mirror (this is new), call her during the day just to see how she is. I am also trying to do little creative things - one of my best (I think) so far is I sent her a love letter and put a check inside for 10000 hugs and kisses (scratched out the Dollars). Had to make sure she got the mail the next couple days. I was putting clothes away the other day and saw it in the bottom of the drawer :smthumbup:. I can tell when I get to her, she gets this little smile that...I don't know how to describe it...it's more than "I needed that". It's like giving a child a special treat just because. Does that make any sense?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Yeah. But I'm also talking about being so bold and 'manly' that she thinks of you like those ladies in the romance novels.

You should read a couple to see what women fantasize about.


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## losinglove (Dec 8, 2009)

I just might have to do that.


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## created4success (Apr 9, 2010)

turnera said:


> Yeah. But I'm also talking about being so bold and 'manly' that she thinks of you like those ladies in the romance novels.
> 
> You should read a couple to see what women fantasize about.


I don't worry too much about what's in the movies or what women fantasize about. I would rather be the best me I can be and be true to myself within my marriage, as cheesy as that sounds.

Now, I've got no problem with taking what my wife says to heart, and seeking to improve in areas where I need to grow, but, never be someone you're not 'cuz you'll regret it later.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

This has nothing to do with pretending to be something else. It's about knowing what your spouse wants, and GIVING it to them. If your wife fantasizes about you picking her up from work, and driving her to a special place where they give dual massages and leave you alone in the house by the fireplace afterward with lit candles, a bottle of champagne, a basket of strawberries, and a box of chocolates...are you becoming 'something else' by giving it to her? (that's what my husband did one day)


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## toolate (Sep 22, 2009)

SOunds like your wife wants that bad boy kind of man since she is so conflicted about this OM who is a serial cheater... admittedly. AND she was abused by her dad. There may be a conflicted desire and repulsion for a take charge man... its what she knows if you think psychologically about it, she grew up with that. Has your sex life ever gone that way? Like in terms of you pressing her up against a wall and taking her shirt off in a furry? Or, have you been gentle and loving? I think she may crave the fiestiness... affair sex is not always lovey dovey... insert hot sex here.

Maybe she doesnt want you to baby her... take a look and see if when you do that, if she is like geez thanks... or does it get her going sexually. 

It appears you talk with the OM... if you dare, ask him what got her going the best... since he has been so helpful, perhaps he wont mind this. Then, you will have an answer.


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## losinglove (Dec 8, 2009)

I knew what you meant turnera. I actually have a little get away planned she has talked about and dreamed about doing.

toolate - It is kind of funny you say that. She told me once a couple weeks ago that he is the risk, I am the safe one. She didn't say she wanted the risk more, but I kind of got that feeling.

Sometimes sex is on the rough side sometimes not. I think she has times where she likes either.

I don't really talk with OM.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Hey losinglove~

I wanted to let you know that I am here and been pondering on your situation for a little while. I do realize there are some *fairly major* complications to overcome here though:

1) your wife was abused as a child and refuses any kind of counseling or help about surrounding issues (and yet it has affected her profoundly!).
2) your wife refuses to end all contact with the OM even though OM has asked her to stop...she pursues him irregardless of the cost of her actions.
3) your wife refuses to allow or consider any kind of marital counseling or recovery from an affair "program" because she says her situation is special and she would purposely sabotage it rather than cooperate. 
4) your wife thinks love "should be easy, should flow naturally, shouldn't be work and should just be felt" so she won't really work at it at all
5) your wife so far has not looked at herself, taken personal responsibility for the affair, admitted the damage that her actions have done, or made any attempt to change or work on herself. 

losinglove, here's the fact. YOU are here and she is not, so at the very least I have hear those things from you without hearing her side. You are here looking for help for you, and she is not here--so I will focus my efforts on you and what you can do to improve and do better, and not on what she "needs to do" because we just can not make people do what we want. But if those things are a fact, I will let you know that any one of those 5 could be marriage-crippling. You can work on you until you're blue in the face, and unless those five things are dealt with and changed, the chances for recovery and a healthy marriage are very, very low. And I'm not trying to be a bummer here--I'm just trying to let you know that even if you are perfect, those are BIG issues. Okay? 

So you wrote: 


> I asked her what she wanted. She said just what I told you earlier. We would be married and happy and I could have D as a friend.
> We talked a little more about that then I told her "I love you". She said I know, I still love you, it's just clouded by all the blackness of the hurt, frustration and anger.


Okay #1 she will not be able to build a marriage with you and honor her vow to devote ALL of her affection and dedication faithfully to only you...if she stays "friends" with the OM. That just will not happen. Period. End of sentence. As long as she has the OM in her life (even if he moves 80 billion miles away and she still pursues him), the marriage will spin it's wheels and not grow and not heal. 

So let's discuss this a little bit later okay...remind me! 



> We got married soon after she graduated college, I was still in the military. She told me looking back that was a good thing because she probably would not be around today if she had to go back to live with her parents. (background: her father abused her)


And if you remember, I told you I had been there too. My folks beat me every day with a broomstick or rolling pin--and upon turning 18yo I left the house and knew I had "won" just because I had survived and they didn't kill me. But I also went to years of counseling to deal with the fear and pain of the abuse. Unless and until she faces it, there will not be real recovery for her or for "the marriage" as an entity because she will not be mentally healthy. She will do anything to run from and avoid some kinds of pain, including having affairs to mask the pain. 


You wrote: 


> As for how am I doing. ok most days. I am working hard on trying to improve myself and meet her needs that I can figure out. The rest I kind of shotgun. I think she is finally understanding that these changes are not a temporary thing and that I am really working hard, but she is still cautious. I think one of the things that really got her to understand that is she told me she wasn't sure I was being real. I told her I know I screwed up, didn't keep my vows to you. I am doing this because I want to repair our marriage. If for some reason we don't work out, I want to make sure my next relationship is strong. She said I know you are trying really hard, that is why I am still here. Every two or three weeks I just feel like crap, like what's the point. I know at those times I need to "recharging of the batteries" and try to head it off before it gets too bad.


Okay so first, I'm glad to hear that you are working on you and trying to improve yourself. What are you doing specifically? Going to a support group? Reading self-help books (or surviving an affair books)? Finding improvement things on the internet? Going to individual counseling? Talking to me? :lol: Going to a parenting class? Taking a training class? Exercising again? The reason I ask is that often people say they're working on themselves when really what they do is "not all that much" and so I'm asking for specifics. 

I think it's reasonable for her to be cautious, and I think it's admirable that you admitted to her your part in contributing to the marriage's troubles. I do not think it's reasonable for you to take responsibility for the affair or her blame. Nor do I think it's reasonable for her to hold this over your head forever--especially when she hasn't ended the affair and hasn't admitted her part in contributing to the issues. 

I notice she mentions that about every 2-3 weeks she feels like crap and feels bummed. Maybe this is a cycle you can track and somewhat/sorta predict (you, losinglove, not her). You may want to take the next few weeks and just track her moods and see if you do see a pattern. I did that once with my exH and was STUNNED to discover that every 3 days he screamed at me (the "veins popping out on his neck" kind of screaming). 




> One of the "paybacks" is not just with her. With the changes in myself I am enjoying doing things with the kids more and even though they have not said anything, I think they are noticing a happier me.


YEPPERS! The more and more and more you become your true self and be true to who you are and the man you have the potential to be--others will notice it (like the kids, co-workers) and actually, the happier you'll feel because you are being you! Huh...whaddya know. A person can become happier by being who they truly are...as if the feeling is something you can choose! :ezpi_wink1:

One thing you wrote was a little interesting. You said: 


> Turnera, I like to think I do. I am doing little things I used to do. Buy flowers at odd times, write "love" messages on the bathroom mirror (this is new), call her during the day just to see how she is. I am also trying to do little creative things - one of my best (I think) so far is I sent her a love letter and put a check inside for 10000 hugs and kisses (scratched out the Dollars). Had to make sure she got the mail the next couple days. I was putting clothes away the other day and saw it in the bottom of the drawer . I can tell when I get to her, she gets this little smile that...I don't know how to describe it...it's more than "I needed that". It's like giving a child a special treat just because. Does that make any sense?


This is sort of important. It sounds like love, to you, might be little things....little gifts and romantics gestures... or that's what you think it means to her. My point here is an example. 

My Dear Hubby thinks love is expressed by Actions of Love. So if I help him clean the kitchen, fold laundry, or change the oil, he thinks, "Wow she cares enough about me to do stuff for me!" I think love is expressed by little gifts and romantic doo-dads, so if you buy me flowers and send an ecard and get me a teddy bear, I'm THRILLED! 

What happens if my Dear Hubby changes my oil or goes grocery shopping "for me"? Do I see that as love? Nope. I sit at home lonely and think, "Why would he rather spend time with the car then here watching a movie with me?" And if I get my Dear Hubby little romantic doo-dads does he see that as love? Nope. He wonders "Why doesn't she love me enough to help me?" 

So losinglove, from what you can tell, are those the ways that YOUR WIFE sees love? If you do those things, does she see a waste of money and it doesn't phase her? Or is that her language of love? That's pretty important to keep in mind. 

HEY, AFFAIRCARE, DON'T FORGET ABOUT ENDING ALL CONTACT WITH THE OTHER MAN. YOU WANTED TO TALK ABOUT THAT, REMEMBER? 

Oh yeah! Thanks! Okay, losinglove, here's da rules :rules:

Until ALL contact with the OM is ended, the marriage does not have a chance of recovering. In order to move into a healthy recovery, she will have to willingly end all contact with him and never, *EVER *contact him again. Yes, it will hurt and she'll miss him. Yes, she'll be tempted to call and she will have to resist the temptation (you can't do it for her or police her). So since she still is not willing to do that, it kind of got me to thinking...well, where are you guys in the steps of ending an affair?

*Step 1: Gather evidence*--this is finding proof so that the loyal spouse believes there is an A, because we already know the disloyal will very likely lie and deny it. I think you've done this step. 

*Step 2: C-D-E*--this stands for Confront, Disclose, Expose (and I think it's turnera's favorite step). First go to your wife, directly, and confront her. Tell her you know she had an affair, you know you contributed and you're willing to work it out, and ask directly for her to end all contact for all time. Ask out loud. If that doesn't work, then you disclose the affair maybe to one key person: a clergymember, one of her parents, one of your parents, an employer...someone she is likely to look up to and respect, who is also likely going to advise her to end her affair and work on her marriage. Whoever you disclose to, it should be someone important to her so she thinks twice about ending the affair. Finally if that doesn't work, you expose the affair to those who will be affected by it. The point of this exposure is not to be vindictive, but to let people know who may influence her and to let relatives know (for example) who may be able to support and encourage you. It's also to expose the previously somewhat secret/hidden affair to the truth, no longer keep it secret, and inform employers there may be vulnerability to legal action and loss of production etc. The likely exposure folks are your parents, your siblings, her parents, her siblings, your very good friends, her very good friends, people at your place of worship (with whom you're close), a neighbor or friend who you think is "helping out" with the affair, your employer, her employer.... 

I'm not sure how far you got with this step. Can you refresh my memory? If I remember correctly the military chaplain knows right? 
*
Step 3: Carrot & Stick*--in this phase you focus on two things: work on yourself to be the person you once were who attracted her again AND allow her to experience the natural consequences of her choices. You work on yourself by eliminating the things that extinguished love between you two (like judging her, angry explosions, enough is never enough) and by re-starting the things that kindled love between you two (like romantic doo-dads). You need to do BOTH...but eliminating love extinguishers is the most important of the two. The idea here is that she is getting some of her needs met by the OM but you want her to see that you do "get it" and that you are an attractive alternative able to meet her needs. The second part is about NATURAL consequences. This doesn't mean that you punish her, but rather, nope--you are not leaving the house so she can move her lover in. If she wants to be with loverboy, she'll need to move out and nope the kids do not go with her. There is no reason for them to leave their home, their bed, their neighborhood, their friends, their school because she is with the OM --so a natural consequence there is that she loses some time with her children. That's the cost of choosing to have an affair and what WILL happen if she chooses to divorce. Allow her to experience that hurt because it will teach her faster that affairs HURT and cost A LOT!! 

I think you are doing this step. What do you think? If so, you should know that this step is not "long term" because no one can give and give and give forever when an affair is being rubbed in their face. Eventually the time would come for you to say, "I've done what I could to win you over and now I need to move to the next step before I lose all love for you." Sometimes a disloyal spouse sort of sits on the fence in this step because they are getting needs met by two folks. 
*
Step 4: Dark & Silent*--in this stage you write the disloyal a letter and explain that you love them, admit the things you did to contribute to the affair, indicate what you're doing to end those things, and then say that unless she ends ALL contact with the OM and never, EVER contacts him again, you need to end all contact with her. The idea behind this step is to give them a more realistic taste of what divorce is like--to not have you in their life to meet ANY needs! They also can no longer depend on you for those little household chores, blame you for the day's events, nothing. I don't think we are quite here yet, do you?

From what I can see, you may have a little more Step 2 to do, but I think you're in Step 3 (Carrot & Stick). Do you think so too? If so, we can start moving forward I think and get a plan on what to do next.


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## created4success (Apr 9, 2010)

turnera said:


> This has nothing to do with pretending to be something else. It's about knowing what your spouse wants, and GIVING it to them. If your wife fantasizes about you picking her up from work, and driving her to a special place where they give dual massages and leave you alone in the house by the fireplace afterward with lit candles, a bottle of champagne, a basket of strawberries, and a box of chocolates...are you becoming 'something else' by giving it to her? (that's what my husband did one day)


Gotcha, that makes sense!

I would always condone meeting your spouse's needs by asking him or her for what s/he wants, then giving it to them.

That's a great recipe for marital intimacy.


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## losinglove (Dec 8, 2009)

Affaircare - I'll answer your questions after I get some sleep and read it over again. Been awake since 5 AM yesterday.

I do have one question. Somewhere in there you mention she is still getting some of her needs met by him. How is she getting needs met by him if he refuses to reply to her? Do I know 100% that he is not - no. But I just have a feeling he is being truthful when he said he has no intention of contacting her. ( I know turnera, cheaters lie and they lie well )

Off to bed for me.


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## losinglove (Dec 8, 2009)

> your wife was abused as a child and refuses any kind of counseling or help about surrounding issues (and yet it has affected her profoundly!).


She has been to counseling in the past. She was in college and when her father found out she was affraid for her life.




> 5) your wife so far has not looked at herself, taken personal responsibility for the affair, admitted the damage that her actions have done, or made any attempt to change or work on herself.


She has said she takes responsibility for the affair and that she has hurt me. When she talks about she hates that she has/is hurt(ing) me it sounds kind of hollow since she keeps doing it.




> ...any one of those 5 could be marriage-crippling.


I got that.




> As long as she has the OM in her life (even if he moves 80 billion miles away and she still pursues him), the marriage will spin it's wheels and not grow and not heal.


Feel like they are spinning now.




> Okay so first, I'm glad to hear that you are working on you and trying to improve yourself. What are you doing specifically?


Talking to a counselor, books, exercise, anything I can find.




> I think it's reasonable for her to be cautious


agreed




> I do not think it's reasonable for you to take responsibility for the affair or her blame. Nor do I think it's reasonable for her to hold this over your head forever--especially when she hasn't ended the affair and hasn't admitted her part in contributing to the issues.


again I agree.




> So losinglove, from what you can tell, are those the ways that YOUR WIFE sees love? If you do those things, does she see a waste of money and it doesn't phase her? Or is that her language of love? That's pretty important to keep in mind.


She seems to, I have seen her blush a litte with some of the notes on the mirror or when I bring her flowers. I was changing the note on the mirror one time and she came in and seemed disappointed that I had erased the one that was there.

"End of Contact" in another post.


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## losinglove (Dec 8, 2009)

> Step 2: C-D-E--this stands for Confront, Disclose, Expose (and I think it's turnera's favorite step). First go to your wife, directly, and confront her. Tell her you know she had an affair, you know you contributed and you're willing to work it out, and ask directly for her to end all contact for all time. Ask out loud. If that doesn't work, then you disclose the affair maybe to one key person: a clergymember, one of her parents, one of your parents, an employer...someone she is likely to look up to and respect, who is also likely going to advise her to end her affair and work on her marriage. Whoever you disclose to, it should be someone important to her so she thinks twice about ending the affair. Finally if that doesn't work, you expose the affair to those who will be affected by it. The point of this exposure is not to be vindictive, but to let people know who may influence her and to let relatives know (for example) who may be able to support and encourage you. It's also to expose the previously somewhat secret/hidden affair to the truth, no longer keep it secret, and inform employers there may be vulnerability to legal action and loss of production etc. The likely exposure folks are your parents, your siblings, her parents, her siblings, your very good friends, her very good friends, people at your place of worship (with whom you're close), a neighbor or friend who you think is "helping out" with the affair, your employer, her employer....
> 
> I'm not sure how far you got with this step. Can you refresh my memory? If I remember correctly the military chaplain knows right?


Yes the chaplan knows. 

I have talked to one of her friends that my W said she told everything to. Big surprise she left out the part about sleeping with him. There are a few other friends I could talk to.

I'm just not sure who else to talk to. Her brother is an ASS and a half, we have not talked to him in years. The kids are her employer. I have talked to my brother.

I am reluctant about saying anything to her parents given the history. Do you think I should pass on them?




> Step 3: Carrot & Stick--in this phase you focus on two things: work on yourself to be the person you once were who attracted her again AND allow her to experience the natural consequences of her choices. You work on yourself by eliminating the things that extinguished love between you two (like judging her, angry explosions, enough is never enough) and by re-starting the things that kindled love between you two (like romantic doo-dads). You need to do BOTH...but eliminating love extinguishers is the most important of the two. *The idea here is that she is getting some of her needs met by the OM* but you want her to see that you do "get it" and that you are an attractive alternative able to meet her needs. The second part is about NATURAL consequences. This doesn't mean that you punish her, but rather, nope--you are not leaving the house so she can move her lover in. If she wants to be with loverboy, she'll need to move out and nope the kids do not go with her. There is no reason for them to leave their home, their bed, their neighborhood, their friends, their school because she is with the OM --so a natural consequence there is that she loses some time with her children. That's the cost of choosing to have an affair and what WILL happen if she chooses to divorce. Allow her to experience that hurt because it will teach her faster that affairs HURT and cost A LOT!!
> 
> I think you are doing this step. What do you think? If so, you should know that this step is not "long term" because no one can give and give and give forever when an affair is being rubbed in their face. Eventually the time would come for you to say, "I've done what I could to win you over and now I need to move to the next step before I lose all love for you." *Sometimes a disloyal spouse sort of sits on the fence in this step because they are getting needs met by two folks.*


The bold parts are where my previous question comes from.




> From what I can see, you may have a little more Step 2 to do, but I think you're in Step 3 (Carrot & Stick). Do you think so too? If so, we can start moving forward I think and get a plan on what to do next.


I think I am doing step 3, maybe need to go back and do a little step 2.

When these are being told to other people and you read them, it sounds so logical and easy. I have said to myself, that's what I need to do. It is just so much more difficult than it seems. I know what the objectives of doing this are. I just need to do it.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

It may help to consider a cheater as a drug addict. You wouldn't have an addict continue to have access to the drugs. And sometimes you have to be 'mean' for their own good. And hopefully they will thank you later for saving them from themselves.


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## losinglove (Dec 8, 2009)

Ok, I'm freaking out a little. 

She has been REALLY nice to me today. Been extra pleasant on the phone. Called me a couple times said she was worried about me.

Granted, I have not been feeling very well for the last few days. I think the stress is getting to me. (you don't really want details)


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Cheaters often get extra nice when they fear you're about to break up their daily fix. Get you off guard.


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## created4success (Apr 9, 2010)

losinglove said:


> Ok, I'm freaking out a little.
> 
> She has been REALLY nice to me today. Been extra pleasant on the phone. Called me a couple times said she was worried about me.


Maybe she doesn't want you to upset her apple cart, so to speak!


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## losinglove (Dec 8, 2009)

Got my wedding ring resized, have not worn it for several years. She seemed surprised about it, almost shocked. I told her one reason I did it was as a reminder of the promises I made to her when we got married.


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## losinglove (Dec 8, 2009)

She said to me today. "I know what the right thing to do is, it just hurts so much to let go of what I know is wrong."

I told her I am right here with you, you will make it through this.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

losinglove said:


> She said to me today. "I know what the right thing to do is, it just hurts so much to let go of what I know is wrong."
> 
> I told her I am right here with you, you will make it through this.


Awesome! Excellent! Good job! Hope is with you!

----------------
Now playing: Donald Fagan - The Great Pagoda Of Funn
via FoxyTunes


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Perfect thing to say.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

losinglove said:


> She said to me today. "I know what the right thing to do is, it just hurts so much to let go of what I know is wrong."
> 
> I told her I am right here with you, you will make it through this.


Hey losinglove, here's your chance to be a hero in her eyes. I am saddened to say that I did this very thing to Tanelorn. He knew it would hurt and I'd be fairly sad, and no I didn't mope around and act like I was utterly missing my lover (that's pretty poor taste), but likewise I didn't hide my feelings from him either and when I thought, "Well, he SAID he'd be my friend so I'm just gonna see how much he meant that" I'd actually talk to him as if he were my BFF.  And yep, now a while later, on the other side where my head is cleared and straight, I am eternally grateful for the way he behaved and treated me. 

So put on that heart-guard thing and listen to her like her friend. In real life it is going to hurt her, and for a day or two, minute-by-minute she will be fighting the temptation to contact him again. If you have a chance, you may want to take a long-ish weekend and sweep her off her feet for a mini-vacation. There would be nothing wrong with a room at a nice hotel, some time just "hanging out" with you, and being away from all the reminders of "home." Do a few fun things like go to a movie, go out to eat, go dancing, or watch a movie in your room and take a romantic walk together. Nothing big and heavy, just have one weekend that's sort of enjoying each other. It will help rebuild a lot!


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

Agreed, something to take both your minds off of everything for a bit. Should help her with her transition and since she is away from temptation, it should help you relax a bit too. 

It's one of those things where if you don't have the money you don't but alternatives can be much more expensive and much less enjoyable... so if you can..do


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

(Nodding head) Yep! I hear this all the time: "But I don't have money to go to a hotel room for the weekend!" Well...can you afford to lose half of everything you own? Including half your paycheck and half your time with your kids? If you can't afford to lose all that, THEN FIND A WAY TO GET TO A HOTEL ROOM FOR A WEEKEND!! 

It may help to think of it as an investment in the Love Bank  bearing interest that compounds daily.


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## losinglove (Dec 8, 2009)

We don't have a lot, but like you say, this is cheap compared to the alternatives.

Two kids taken care of (Denver on a school trip). Now for the small one...


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## losinglove (Dec 8, 2009)

Well, so much for any plans to get away for the weekend. I have everything set up and last night she decided she does not want to go.

She is starting her downward slide, been about 2 weeks. I had some suspicions so I checked the keylogger. 

She tried several things on the computer to try to contact him yesterday. 
Anyone with the same name on Skype and fb, including his wife.
Tried using his name with the .mil domain for email.

two weird thing, 
1) The last 3 or 4 nights she has currled up to me and fallen asleep with her arm around me and her head on my chest. She has not done that in I don't know how long. She might do it for a little while, but never fall asleep.
2) I am hurt at what I found yesterday, but it is almost like I knew what I was going to find so it is more like a punch in the arm instead of a hammer on the finger..


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## created4success (Apr 9, 2010)

losinglove said:


> Well, so much for any plans to get away for the weekend. I have everything set up and last night she decided she does not want to go.


Kudos to you for making the effort! Sometimes that's all we can do, and then just let it go (not your wife, the get away weekend).



> two weird thing,
> 1) The last 3 or 4 nights she has currled up to me and fallen asleep with her arm around me and her head on my chest. She has not done that in I don't know how long. She might do it for a little while, but never fall asleep.
> 2) I am hurt at what I found yesterday, but it is almost like I knew what I was going to find so it is more like a punch in the arm instead of a hammer on the finger..


I'd say that's progress and certainly encouraging, despite your recent computer discoveries...


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## losinglove (Dec 8, 2009)

As far as what I found on the computer, she got no responses from him. She has an IM open to the one name for about an hour, no response. She finally wrote "Damn you" and shut it down, and it may not even be the OM.


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## losinglove (Dec 8, 2009)

I asked this earlier and no one answered. It just really makes me wonder why someone would keep trying if they are not getting anything back.



> I do have one question. Somewhere in there you mention she is still getting some of her needs met by him. How is she getting needs met by him if he refuses to reply to her? Do I know 100% that he is not - no. But I just have a feeling he is being truthful when he said he has no intention of contacting her. ( I know turnera, cheaters lie and they lie well )


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

Look inside for the answer...

I believe you were asking about her, but in a sense aren't you currently trying and getting nothing back?

In her case it may be akin to a junkie trying to snort coke residue off the sides of a zip lock bag and nearly suffocating themselves while doing it.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Great analogy!

As for what she's getting from him...she is getting the memories of how he made her feel.

I'm assuming: HE rocked her socks. He complimented her thoughts and made her feel smart. He actually listened to what she had to say and seemed to care and made her feel like people would think she had something valuable to say. He looked at her like she was the most beautiful woman in the world (even if he was just pretending to do so, for free sex) and made her FEEL beautiful. He laughed at her jokes and made her feel witty. He listened to her troubles and made her feel like she should be getting better in life.

Is she still in contact with him? No. But she FELT good when she was. She wants that feeling again.

For now, when she looks at you, or is with you, she is 50% miserable because of the guilt, because YOU don't treat her like you did when you were dating (like OM has been doing), and because you two had baggage. When she thinks of him, there IS no baggage. No fights. No bills to pay. No figuring out what to do without so you can pay bills. No family issues to deal with. 

HE was a fantasy - a feel-good fantasy. YOU are reality. 

Does she love you? Probably. But right now, you pale in comparison. To his fantasy.

That is why, when you fight to end the affair, you ALSO have to work like CRAZY to fix your marriage and yourself at the same time. Because, without the affair, her life (with you) STILL looks like the crappy life she had that led to the affair.


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## losinglove (Dec 8, 2009)

Like the analogy.

Turnera - I think your assumptions are correct. 



> When she thinks of him, there IS no baggage. No fights. No bills to pay. No figuring out what to do without so you can pay bills. No family issues to deal with.


She actually said this a few weeks ago. "We have not history. You and I have a lot of history"

I'm keeping at it. If the older 2 were not in Denver, I think we probably would have gone away this weekend. She told me just a few minutes ago 'I'm sorry if I'm not into you right now. I want my kids back.'


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

So what?

You are still acting out of fear. Come on. It's Friday. You have time. Be creative. Find SOMEONE to watch your other child so you can at least go off for half a day. 

What is your marriage worth?


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## losinglove (Dec 8, 2009)

already ahead of you.


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## losinglove (Dec 8, 2009)

Just a quick update.

Well, things are still rocky. I'm pretty sure she still tries once in a while to contact him. 

A couple weekends ago, since she didn't want to go away, we dropped the little one off and spent the day going to a craft fair, A flea market, a nice walk by the river and out to dinner that night. We had a really good time and some laughs. Have not seen her smile that much in a long time.

Last week was ok, Tuesday was a little rough. I have been encouraging her to be open with me, talk to me. So on the way home from the bus she told me this:

"I am so angry at him. When I was younger and my father was doing stuff my mother abandoned me. Then you abandoned me. Now he will not even talk to me. You just don't do that to someone."

OK, that stung a little, but I was ready for it. Told her I never abandoned her even though she may have felt like it. I'm sorry you felt that way and I will do my best to make sure you never feel that way with me again.

I am still working on myself, things are getting easier, more of a good habit forming.


This morning she sent me a text. "I need to talk to you sometime. I love you."

I must have had an OMG look on my face from the weird looks I was getting. That is the first time in a very long time, even before I discovered the affair, that she has said I love you.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Are you spending time talking about your marriage, and what she needs? Like once a week?


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## losinglove (Dec 8, 2009)

Most definitely we are. We have been trying to do it every Tuesday. And occasionally other times when something comes up that we do not feel we should put off.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

losinglove~

On the one hand there is a tiny part of me that gets so frustrated for you and wants to just say, "Exactly HOW LONG are you going to accepts scraps and crumbs from this woman? Exactly how long are you going to take her blame and inability to accept personal responsibility for her own choices?" Okay that's just my frustration talking but it is kind of there. 

On the other hand, I do admire your patience and persistence and dedication to her. I hope that one day she wakes up and realizes how you stood by her and the debt of gratitude she owes you. It would be so much easier if she would follow a recovery plan or consider counseling or coaching! Anyway, from what I can see, your intention is to stick with it and try to find ways to help her resentment diminish and I have three suggestions .... FOR YOU. 

1) When she says something like "first my dad abandoned me, then you abandoned me, and now the OM abandoned me" rather than saying "I didn't abandon you" I would suggest saying "It sounds like you feel the people who love you leave you." The idea is that she's doing a crummy job but she's expressing what it seems like to her, and when you say "I didn't..." it puts her on the defensive because now she has to defend WHY you did abandon her. Make sense? That's not the issue anyway (whether you did or did not abandon her). The issue is that she feels like those she loves, leave her. Does that kind of make sense? So practice: "It sounds like you feel..." rather than "I didn't ...."

2) I realize she won't work any program but for you, you may enjoy and find this resource helpful: Lovingyou.com: Romance Calendar I actually use this romance calendar myself to give me one idea every day of something sweet to do for Dear Hubby. They also do a nice job of switching things up and the idea here is to keep up the association of "losinglove = positive" that you started on your little getaway day. That day you two connected a little--so keep that connection going and if you can see if you can figure out her love language or love kindlers. I can help with that if you need it okay?

3) You may want to consider the Love Dare. That is a good book but I'll warn ya it does have a christian viewpoint. And nope, it's not something you two would do together. You purpose in your heart to do it, and you do it TO your spouse FOR your spouse. It's a gift you offer them without expectation in return.


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## losinglove (Dec 8, 2009)

AC, I get your frustration and ask the same thing at times. The "crumbs" are getting bigger, though. She knows it was her choice to do what she did and has said it was wrong of her to do it. But, she also says she does not regret it. So, that seems kind of weird to me. She has a hard time letting go of things, always has.

I do bring up every once in a while about going to a counselor. The last time she wasn't completely repulsed by the idea.

As to your suggestions
1) I understand. After I said what I did I was like, that wasn't the right way to say that. But, I already did.

2) Ever since you mentioned that site on showtime's thread I have used it as a resource - thanks

3) I have thought about doing the Love Dare, actually bought the book a couple days ago and watched the movie.


I have a getaway planned in a couple weeks to a place that has hot springs. She has asked about going. It will be a nice surprise, should be a good getaway for us.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Soooooo...how did the getaway go? When Tanelorn and I got away we had a BLAST! Went to a cute little place on the coast and played at the ocean all weekend.


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## losinglove (Dec 8, 2009)

It's still planned, June 11-13. Would have gone earlier but everywhere with private baths was booked up. She is really looking forward to it, as am I.


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## losinglove (Dec 8, 2009)

She says she is trying to make things better, but her actions don't show it. She's not cotacting him, just keeping to herself. She is not being honest with me, acts all happy and everything but I know she is not at all.

She said she needs to figure out if she wants to work things out and she does not feel safe with me. When I first found out I went a little nuts, not yelling or screaming, but just really overdoing everything else. Only one time did I really show her that I was angry, didn't hit her or anything, never would, but it scared her. That episode was back between Christmas and New Years.

How I wish she would talk to a therapist for her self. Hell, I wish she would talk to me!!!

I think if she decides she wants to stay married she will go to marriage counseling - maybe.

I don't know how much longer I can go, and if I try to tell her that she just starts crying even more.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Tell me again how you have changed your relationship?


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

losinglove said:


> She said she needs to figure out if she wants to work things out and she does not feel safe with me.
> 
> ...
> 
> I don't know how much longer I can go, and if I try to tell her that she just starts crying even more.


Here is exactly what I would say: 

_"I agree with you--I do need to figure out if I want to stay married to someone who would treat me like you do. I'm done with scraps. When you are ready to devote *all *of your affection and loyalty to ME, call me. Until then, I wish you good luck; I'm not your gravy train anymore." _

losinglove--I kid you not. I care about you in the sense of wanting things to work out for you and praying for you...but you are letting this woman use you BIG TIME all over the place, and sending the message that she can treat you however she feels like it, never have to work at the marriage, and you'll take it! 

That is not mature, loving, Christian or honoring your vows!! You are her HUSBAND, not her doormat. Do you love her enough to *LET* her walk experience the difficult things she needs to experience so she can grow and be a better woman? Or are you going to continue to let her use you so she can avoid her life lessons? 

Now, before you run out of love for her entirely, allow her to get angry, yell and scream ... and after her tantrum is done, maybe she will stop, look around, and realize she has to grow up. Seriously, she had decided already. She can choose to devote all her affection and loyalty to you TODAY or she can pack and move out TODAY, because right now her actions are telling you her decision.


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## losinglove (Dec 8, 2009)

> Now, before you run out of love for her entirely


May already be too late.


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## losinglove (Dec 8, 2009)

She's gone. I'm hurting. Kids are upset. Life sucks right now. 

She has been telling me I'm not second to him. I have always called her on that using her own words. She still doesn't get it.

Don't know if I want her back. I am so _something_ with her right now.


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

Sorry to hear things suck for you LL. Concentrate on you and the kids. fun stuff for them...heck, fun stuff for you 

Life will get better, be a rock for those kids...be in good mental shape for them, make things as 'normal' as possible for them. Be careful not to let your frustration or hurt with you wife reach them. 

Things will get better for you, pain will subside in time, smiles will come easier and bigger...

Wish you the best!


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

Okay. Now what? Will she be back tomorrow to see the kids? Is this what we call a separation? She needs space. Just how much. I have been doing my reading and the biggest problem with a separation is that often times it is too short. I am going through this now. Figure more than a month. If she is having an affair, the separation could last until the affair burns out. Six months? No groveling, pleading or begging. Back off. Stay strong. Your kids need a good role model. Be confident. She is the one making a mistake. Take this time to make progress on learning how to behave better. Reduce the negatives, increase the positives. Just an idea. Work on these things with your children. Play with them. Snuggle on the couch watching a movie. Don't just kiss them on the forehead when you put them to bed. Give them a real hug...EVERY night. Have genuine conversations with them.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

losinglove said:


> She's gone. I'm hurting. Kids are upset. Life sucks right now.
> 
> She has been telling me I'm not second to him. I have always called her on that using her own words. She still doesn't get it.
> 
> Don't know if I want her back. I am so _something_ with her right now.


 She moved out? 

Find out if she is with OM. Let us know.


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## losinglove (Dec 8, 2009)

She moved out Saturday, only heard from her once by txt msg - "how are the kids?"

No she is not with OM unless she went to Iraq.


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

I have a suggestion on the text messaging. Too impersonal. My wife was doing that to me for the first three weeks after she left. When she found out I had spoken to our friends about her ongoing affair she texted me. My reply was, "I don't text." She called me. We have been talking on the phone since. (Of course, I am not getting anywhere, but that is beside the point.) It was a small victory for the NEED to communicate.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

losinglove said:


> She moved out Saturday, only heard from her once by txt msg - "how are the kids?"
> 
> No she is not with OM unless she went to Iraq.


 Ok, well, I meant spiritually. As in, 'choosing' him.


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## losinglove (Dec 8, 2009)

oh, sorry, reading things really literal right now. Takes less thought.

She say she doesn't know what she wants. Says she loves him, but does not want to break up out marriage. Not only that but OM is trying to work things out with his wife and want no contact with my wife. I don't think he has, at least knowingly given she has who knows how many emails with different names, both M and F.

If I had to guess, I would say yes.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

losinglove said:


> She's gone. I'm hurting. Kids are upset. Life sucks right now.
> 
> She has been telling me I'm not second to him. I have always called her on that using her own words. She still doesn't get it.
> 
> Don't know if I want her back. I am so _something_ with her right now.


LosingLove~

The very first thing I want to say to you is that I'm sorry she has chosen to leave and I am very sorry you are hurting so much. I am very grateful that you are able to be there for your children, and they for you. Yes, I know they are children, but you can draw an incredible amount of courage and "will to go on" by having your children with you. 

The second thing I would say is that I think it is time for you to move into the Consequences Step (aka Plan B). In this step you would write one last letter and it's very important that it have these things in the letter: 1) you recognize the things you did that harmed the marriage; list them and list what you've done to correct those issues (what you plan to do so the fix is ongoing and permanent); 2) indicate that you're willing to make the effort to make a new life but to do that you need her to end her relationship with OM COMPLETELY; 3) until she is willing and able to COMPLETELY remove the OM from her head, heart and life, you will be unable to contact with her in any way nor will you be meeting her needs--and X and Y have agreed to be intermediaries; 4) as soon as she is willing and able to completely excise OM from her life, she can contact intermediaries--if she needs to communicate something about the kids, she can write it in The Parenting Notebook ; 5) end with love and commitment that can only grow once the OM is gone. 

Here is an example: 

_My Dear Disloyal Spouse, 

I apologize to you for my part in creating an environment that helped make your affair with OP possible. I foolishly pursued my career without understanding my responsibility to meet your most important emotional needs. I was not there for you when you needed me most, and we are now both suffering for my mistake.

I am willing to avoid the mistakes I've made in the past and create a new life for both of us that will meet your needs. But I can not do that until you end your relationship with OP once and for all.

Until then, I will avoid seeing you or talking to you. I will also not be able to help you financially. Our friends, Jane and Paul, have agreed to help make arrangements for you to visit the children whenever you would like. But I will not be here when you visit. If you want to communicate about the children or any other matter, it will have to be through Jane and Paul.

I as you to respect my decision to separate from you this way. You must know about the suffering I have endured because of your relationship with OP, and I simply can not be with you any longer knowing that you are with him/her. I still love you but I can not see you under these conditions.

As soon as you are willing to permanently separate from OP and are willing to follow the measures that were suggest to ensure total separation, I will be willing to discuss our future together. 

I want us to be able to rebuild our marriage some day. I want us to be able to meet each other's emotional needs and to avoid doing anything to hurt each other. We need to build a new lifestyle in which everything we do makes us both happy. Then there will never again be a reason for us to separate. I want to be your best friend, someone who is always there for you when you need me. And I want you as my best friend.

I loved you when we married and I continue to love you right up to this day. I just can not be with you or help you as long as you are seeing OP.

With my Love, 

Loyal Spouse_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I agree. Let her see what her consequences are, and spare yourself the pain at the same time. Plan B.


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## losinglove (Dec 8, 2009)

Do I really want to write the letter? Do I really want her back? She is just waiting and hoping he will come back to her. Should I just let her be and let her know I want nothing to do with her? Don't talk to me unless it has something to do with the kids.

No need to answer, just thinking "out loud".


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

Yes - write the letter - and go to deep, dark Plan B.

It's for your benefit, not hers. 

And yes, I paid no attention to you: I answered anyway.....


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## losinglove (Dec 8, 2009)

Ok I'm a little weirded out.

I had the letter dropped off to her by a mutual friend Wednesday evening.

Last night I got the kids to bed then got on the computer and ran a couple of the old WoW Raids with a couple friends (yes I play a little) then went to bed.

When I woke up this morning someone was in bed next to me, curled up with her head on my chest. WTF, where did you come from, how did that happen. Yea I was pretty tired but you think I would have woken up from that. No it wasn't a girl Blood Elf :rofl:, it was my wife.

I got up and got ready for work then left, didn't say anything, I was/still am in shock. What do I do now? Tell her to get out?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Well, if you still want her back, welcome the change. But make it clear under what conditions you do want her back. You'll have to have 'the talk' to clarify that you can only accept her back if she's done with OM and willing to prove it to you.


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## losinglove (Dec 8, 2009)

Turnera - I don't know if I want her back. I just keep thinking about this morning when I woke up.

She left a note in my bag.

"How do I get him out of my head. I wish I had a switch on my heart so I could turn him off."

I don't know if she is still at the house. I am guessing she is since the kids are there.

AC you mentioned this earlier about being willing and able to completely remove him from her head, heart and life. I am pretty sure she is going to bring it up, if she is still home. What do I say? "Make the choice to do it." "Come to counseling with me." "Go to a counselor for yourself."... any/all/none of the above?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

MB recommends that a returning WS do a few things that help them mentally start the process of 'turning off,' including writing OM a No Contact letter that she lets you read and you send; handing you her passwords to her computer and phone so you can check if you want to; starting a process where you start talking honestly about your marriage and what's wrong with it, so you can make the walk together on the path to affair-proofing your marriage. If she's willing to do those things, you have a fair chance.


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## CH (May 18, 2010)

losinglove, you also have to answer all those questions and doubts running through your head. But the biggest issue I can see is if you can handle the fact that you were option B or C or Z only cuz the OM rejected your wife? This is the biggest question you have to answer truthfully to yourself.

Personally, i could never live with the fact that I was option LAST on her list. But that is a question you'll have to dig deep in your heart to see if you can forgive enough to get past it.

If you take her back and she becomes the perfect wife again, you'll have to be able to bury all these doubts real deep and move on or else it'll eventually poison your marriage to the point that you'll resent her for the rest of your life no matter how perfect the marriage becomes.

Everytime she's home late, doesn't answer your call or text, stares at some random guy too long, makes an innocent comment about another man, seems distant, how will you handle those situations?


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## losinglove (Dec 8, 2009)

CH, those are the questions I am asking myself. I don't know the answers right now. But I don't want to lead her down a path and at some point when things are looking better say - sorry, I can do this.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

losinglove~

I'm going to take a little bit of a hard-nose approach here. This may not be your "style" but here's what I see happened. She left you. She valued the fantasy in her head more than honoring her vow and she chose to leave. The moment you stood up for yourself and asked that she honor your request for no contact, not only did she not honor your request respectfully, but she let herself into the house uninvited and into your bed uninvited. 

She DOES have a switch to turn the OM off--it's called a CHOICE. She can choose to take actions that stop herself from thinking about the OM and gradually end the feelings. Unfortunately, she chooses to not make that decision, and she chooses to continue to hold onto the OM. She could just as easily make the decision to discipline her mind so that every time he pops into her head, she writes a loving text to you...or every time she feels a twinge of missing him, she replaces that with gratitude and love for you. 

Your wife has this unrealistic view that feelings "just happen" and that she drifts through life at the whim of things that just happen to her. She has no control--her affair was unlike any other and she's so unique no one can tell her what she could do to change... because, since she has no control, she has no choice but the ride along with whatever is doing this to her. Honestly that is unadulterated poppyc*ck! She is an adult and she has a choice. She is making the choice to hold onto feelings (and thoughts) of the OM, and she is making the choice to place that above honoring her marriage commitment. 

losinglove, it is time for her to understand that her choices have CONSEQUENCES. You are right and Turnera is right: "Make the choice to do it." "Come to counseling with me." "Go to a counselor for yourself."... *ALL OF THE ABOVE!!!!!* Write OM a No Contact letter that she lets you read and you send if you see the need; hand you *ALL *of her passwords to her computer, email, facebook, chat IM's, forums and cell phone so you can check if you want to; start a process where she starts talking honestly about the marriage and what's wrong with it...*ALL OF THE ABOVE!!!!* 

If she's there when you get home I strongly suggest that you conduct this somewhat like a business transaction, so put on your solid steel heart guard! Then say:

"I asked you to not contact me until you are willing to do the work that is required to completely remove the OM from your head, heart and life. That includes writing a no contact letter to the OM that you give to ME to read, giving me all your passwords and complete access to all your online and cellphone activities, personal transparency about your whereabouts and being open with me, on a daily basis CHOOSING to discipline your mind to think of me and us whenever a thought of OM pops into your mind, going to marriage counseling with me, and going to individual counseling for you. After all that we've been through I require a partner in my life who will devote all of their affection and loyalty to me, and I'll accept nothing less. Are you willing to do all those things starting NOW?" 

If her answer is anything other than yes...ask her to go. Period. She can contact you when her answer is yes.


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