# Discord...



## hubbyintrubby

Looking for some varying viewpoints on a situation. I've been separated from my wife for about a week. Close to when I left last week, I had a discussion with my daughter who is 12. My wife is her stepmother. I asked her some question pertaining to opinion on leaving, her viewpoints on the home and her stepmom. A lot of what she had to say was negative and painted my wife in a bad light saying she did not like her because she is very rude when she speaks to people and my daughter feels as if my wife has changed me from the man who I was when she was younger.

How much stock do I put into her views and opinions in my current situation? My children are my world and I am very self-admittedly very protective of them.


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## Mr.Married

A lot of times it's tough to beat the honesty of a child. They haven't developed the critical walls in their mind that we do as adults.


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## hubbyintrubby

Mr.Married said:


> A lot of times it's tough to beat the honesty of a child. They haven't developed the critical walls in their mind that we do as adults.


I fully agree there. I've always considered her to be a very intuitive kid as well. A good "people reader" if you will.


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## aquarius1

Being devil’s advocate here: 1) your 12 year old daughter has her own agenda. Make no mistake. I’ve owned one (lol) so I know and 
2) I’m struggling to understand why you are involving a child in grown up matters. My opinion only


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## Mylehigh

I guess this will fall in the category of a varied opinion. I feel your engagement with your daughter on the topic is not putting your daughter’s best interests first. A child should not be put in a position where she could feel some form of responsibility in this situation. No matter her feelings. Lucky for you she seems to support the move but what if she didn’t? Would it really sway your decision? If it did somehow change your decision, then I would wonder how well you really thought the decision to leave through in the first place. 

12 year old kids do not have the maturity to deal with these matters as an advisor to a parent.


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## hubbyintrubby

aquarius1 said:


> Being devil’s advocate here: 1) your 12 year old daughter has her own agenda. Make no mistake. I’ve owned one (lol) so I know and
> 2) I’m struggling to understand why you are involving a child in grown up matters. My opinion only


I appreciate your input @aquarius1 

I know she has her own agenda in this matter. I'm just trying to gauge how much stock I should put into what she has to say and how far her agenda should get to go. The way I see it, she has stock in our life just like I do.

I get that opinion completely. If it were a matter of less importance, or perhaps another matter altogether, I would not do so. What we are talking about heavily involves her and her brother so my opinion is that her opinion matters very much to me but holds no majority sway with me in what we do from here. I made sure she was comfortable sharing her views with me and made it a very safe place to do so. Whether it was wrong to do so is up in the air, but a therapist I speak to fairly regularly had no qualms with me bringing it up to her.


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## hubbyintrubby

Bixby62 said:


> I guess this will fall in the category of a varied opinion. I feel your engagement with your daughter on the topic is not putting your daughter’s best interests first. A child should not be put in a position where she could feel some form of responsibility in this situation. No matter her feelings. Lucky for you she seems to support the move but what if she didn’t? Would it really sway your decision? If it did somehow change your decision, then I would wonder how well you really thought the decision to leave through in the first place.
> 
> 12 year old kids do not have the maturity to deal with these matters as an advisor to a parent.


I understand that viewpoint and appreciate your input. Unless it was a matter of the utmost importance, I would absolutely have left her out of it. The only reason in the first place I approached her at all is that I can see and feel her uncomfortableness in the home and relationships in the home almost daily and was interested in hearing her take on what was happening. I could tell that it was bothering her and felt it was important to know what those feelings she had been harboring were.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

aquarius1 said:


> Being devil’s advocate here: 1) your 12 year old daughter has her own agenda. Make no mistake. I’ve owned one (lol) so I know and
> 2) I’m struggling to understand why you are involving a child in grown up matters. My opinion only


You "owned" a child?

No wonder you don't think they should be consulted. 

It's not necessarily wrong to wish to understand the child's feelings. I saw nothing that indicated OP was looking for daughter to be a part of the decision making process, which doesn't qualify for "involving her in grown up matters." He just wanted to know her thoughts. 

My parents had tremendous strife when I was young, including a couple lengthy separations. I very much appreciated when my mom would discuss things with me and even ask for my feelings on the situation.


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## OnTheFly

hubbyintrubby said:


> I fully agree there. I've always considered her to be a very intuitive kid as well. A good "people reader" if you will.


To me, that's your answer, right there.

Considering the wife is a stepmom, I think that allows some leeway in gaining the daughter's view of the situation. 

I'm giving the OP credit for distinguishing between pre-teen agenda and genuine concerns.


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## hubbyintrubby

OnTheFly said:


> To me, that's your answer, right there.
> 
> Considering the wife is a stepmom, I think that allows some leeway in gaining the daughter's view of the situation.
> 
> I'm giving the OP credit for distinguishing between pre-teen agenda and genuine concerns.


Thank you for that credit @OnTheFly In all honesty, it was a good natured attempt to find out how she was really feeling about the situation as a whole. She has been struggling, along with her brother for a while now so bad that when I'm at work and they are home with my wife, they spend whole days in their beds reading or on screens other than to eat just to stay out of other parts of the house. She had never really wanted to talk much about it and I could tell it was a moment in which she would be open and honest with me. My son who is younger still refuses to talk to anybody about it. And yes, I have thought about therapy for him for this matter.


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## aquarius1

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> You "owned" a child?
> 
> No wonder you don't think they should be consulted.
> 
> It's not necessarily wrong to wish to understand the child's feelings. I saw nothing that indicated OP was looking for daughter to be a part of the decision making process, which doesn't qualify for "involving her in grown up matters." He just wanted to know her thoughts.
> 
> My parents had tremendous strife when I was young, including a couple lengthy separations. I very much appreciated when my mom would discuss things with me and even ask for my feelings on the situation.


Oh dear Rocky. Sorry if I pushed a button. If you’ll notice, I wrote “LOL” after my words which in my universe indicates sarcasm, humour. And as I clearly stated ,my opinion only. If you feel threatened by such conversations or can’t understand the nuances, perhaps you should seek clarification before jumping down someone’s throat. :smile2:


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## aquarius1

hubbyintrubby said:


> I appreciate your input @aquarius1
> 
> I know she has her own agenda in this matter. I'm just trying to gauge how much stock I should put into what she has to say and how far her agenda should get to go. The way I see it, she has stock in our life just like I do.
> 
> I get that opinion completely. If it were a matter of less importance, or perhaps another matter altogether, I would not do so. What we are talking about heavily involves her and her brother so my opinion is that her opinion matters very much to me but holds no majority sway with me in what we do from here. I made sure she was comfortable sharing her views with me and made it a very safe place to do so. Whether it was wrong to do so is up in the air, but a therapist I speak to fairly regularly had no qualms with me bringing it up to her.


I can truly see your viewpoint on this. And I appreciate you clarifying it for me. I have encountered parents who put far too much sway into their kids opinions, but I am in agreement that since this affects them, they should have input. It appears from your response that you are taking a healthy balanced approach.


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## StarFires

aquarius1 said:


> Being devil’s advocate here: 1) your 12 year old daughter has her own agenda. Make no mistake. I’ve owned one (lol) so I know and
> 2) I’m struggling to understand why you are involving a child in grown up matters. My opinion only


So very true.



Bixby62 said:


> I guess this will fall in the category of a varied opinion. I feel your engagement with your daughter on the topic is not putting your daughter’s best interests first. A child should not be put in a position where she could feel some form of responsibility in this situation. No matter her feelings. Lucky for you she seems to support the move but what if she didn’t? Would it really sway your decision? If it did somehow change your decision, then I would wonder how well you really thought the decision to leave through in the first place.
> 
> 12 year old kids do not have the maturity to deal with these matters as an advisor to a parent.


So very true.




hubbyintrubby said:


> Looking for some varying viewpoints on a situation. I've been separated from my wife for about a week. Close to when I left last week, I had a discussion with my daughter who is 12. My wife is her stepmother. I asked her some question pertaining to opinion on leaving, her viewpoints on the home and her stepmom. A lot of what she had to say was negative and painted my wife in a bad light saying she did not like her because she is very rude when she speaks to people and my daughter feels as if my wife has changed me from the man who I was when she was younger.
> 
> How much stock do I put into her views and opinions in my current situation? My children are my world and I am very self-admittedly very protective of them.





hubbyintrubby said:


> I appreciate your input @aquarius1
> 
> I know she has her own agenda in this matter. I'm just trying to gauge how much stock I should put into what she has to say and how far her agenda should get to go. The way I see it, she has stock in our life just like I do.
> 
> I get that opinion completely. If it were a matter of less importance, or perhaps another matter altogether, I would not do so. What we are talking about heavily involves her and her brother so my opinion is that her opinion matters very much to me but holds no majority sway with me in what we do from here. I made sure she was comfortable sharing her views with me and made it a very safe place to do so. Whether it was wrong to do so is up in the air, but a therapist I speak to fairly regularly had no qualms with me bringing it up to her.


You were wrong for the reasons previously stated. It seems you also made yourself appear quite contradictory by:

1. Asking people what they think and then arguing with and dismissing their responses because you have your reasons for consulting her. So then, why did you ask adults about how much stock you should put into a child's views and opinions. As they said, you should not have involved her, should not seek her opinion and viewpoint. 

2. You know she has her own agenda, so why did you consult her? Why entertain her agenda to any degree? No, she does not have stock in your life or marriage.

3. You stated "_I get that opinion completely_" and continued to list the exceptions - if this and if that, which means you didn't get that opinion completely or at all. The child should not be consulted regarding your marriage for any reason, on any matter, or under any circumstances. The only exception is with regard to something your wife might have done or said to the child directly.

4. Most stepchildren dislike their stepmother, just automatically from the start of dad's relationship with her (links below for your edification if you're interested in confirming and understanding what I say). That's just the way it goes and the fact is well documented. Therefore, a stepchild's view/opinion of their stepmother isn't likely to be favorable, so no surprise there. But you took her words as reflective of your wife, while also stating you know she has an agenda. Totally contradictory. It's also worthy of noting that your daughter's opinions were very general (gossipy kind of stuff) that had nothing personally to do with your daughter. Also, the "changed" comment is a very common sentiment of stepkids regarding their father and his new relationship. It's just jealousy because whatever changing you did was necessary for the sake of your relationship, but kiddo doesn't have you to herself anymore and doesn't like sharing you with a woman who is not her mother. Not just stepkids but all kids are little conniving human beings. That's not kind and seems unfathomable but it's true. It's also well documented that during the little one's calculated attempts to destroy dad's marriage, dads don't accept their little precious ones can possibly be capable of such.

Stepmonster book excerpt
The Real Reason Stepchildren (And Adults) Hate Their Stepmother
Why It's Easier To Love A Stepfather Than A Stepmother


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## StarFires

OnTheFly said:


> Considering the wife is a stepmom, I think that allows some leeway in gaining the daughter's view of the situation.


And there she blows.


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## hubbyintrubby

StarFires said:


> And there she blows.


Yes...allowing me leeway in asking those question in reference to her stepmom. Something it sounds like you find great fault in.


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## hubbyintrubby

StarFires said:


> You were wrong for the reasons previously stated. It seems you also made yourself appear quite contradictory by:
> 
> 1. Asking people what they think and then arguing with and dismissing their responses because you have your reasons for consulting her. So then, why did you ask adults about how much stock you should put into a child's views and opinions. As they said, you should not have involved her, should not seek her opinion and viewpoint.
> 
> 2. You know she has her own agenda, so why did you consult her? Why entertain her agenda to any degree? No, she does not have stock in your life or marriage.
> 
> 3. You stated "_I get that opinion completely_" and continued to list the exceptions - if this and if that, which means you didn't get that opinion completely or at all. The child should not be consulted regarding your marriage for any reason, on any matter, or under any circumstances. The only exception is with regard to something your wife might have done or said to the child directly.
> 
> 4. Most stepchildren dislike their stepmother, just automatically from the start of dad's relationship with her (links below for your edification if you're interested in confirming and understanding what I say). That's just the way it goes and the fact is well documented. Therefore, a stepchild's view/opinion of their stepmother isn't likely to be favorable, so no surprise there. But you took her words as reflective of your wife, while also stating you know she has an agenda. Totally contradictory. It's also worthy of noting that your daughter's opinions were very general (gossipy kind of stuff) that had nothing personally to do with your daughter. Also, the "changed" comment is a very common sentiment of stepkids regarding their father and his new relationship. It's just jealousy because whatever changing you did was necessary for the sake of your relationship, but kiddo doesn't have you to herself anymore and doesn't like sharing you with a woman who is not her mother. Not just stepkids but all kids are little conniving human beings. That's not kind and seems unfathomable but it's true. It's also well documented that during the little one's calculated attempts to destroy dad's marriage, dads don't accept their little precious ones can possibly be capable of such.r[/URL]


I looked back and cannot find anybody that I argued with. I see that I attempted to clarify some points, but I don't think I would argue with anybody on their viewpoints that they are sharing with me. 

I see that your opinion is that my children have no stock in their father's life, nor should she/they be consulted regarding my marriage for any reason, on any matter, or under any circumstances. I do not agree, but I respect your opinion and appreciate you sharing it here. This is the sort of varied viewpoint I was hoping to hear. Thank you.

I feel like I have a fairly good handle on the intricacies of blended family life. I was raised in one and I have one of my very own right now. My daughter can have an agenda, feelings and opinions about the home she lives in and who she lives in it with. I am her father and these things are very important to me and they will continue to be very important to me. Her agenda does not rule my life but I will always be interested in how she feels and how she sees things in our home, in her life and with the people she shares each of those with.


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## Casual Observer

hubbyintrubby said:


> Looking for some varying viewpoints on a situation. I've been separated from my wife for about a week. Close to when I left last week, I had a discussion with my daughter who is 12. My wife is her stepmother. I asked her some question pertaining to opinion on leaving, her viewpoints on the home and her stepmom. A lot of what she had to say was negative and painted my wife in a bad light saying she did not like her because she is very rude when she speaks to people and my daughter feels as if my wife has changed me from the man who I was when she was younger.
> 
> How much stock do I put into her views and opinions in my current situation? My children are my world and I am very self-admittedly very protective of them.


There's always a feedback loop running. Does your daughter know why you're separated? In general she is going to try and be supportive of you. Yes, at 12, she might be more inclined towards honesty than later on, but also quite possibly the opposite, since she's still at an age where Dad is a very important person in her life. Always will be, but at 12, still willing to admit to it.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

aquarius1 said:


> Oh dear Rocky. Sorry if I pushed a button. If you’ll notice, I wrote “LOL” after my words which in my universe indicates sarcasm, humour. And as I clearly stated ,my opinion only. If you feel threatened by such conversations or can’t understand the nuances, perhaps you should seek clarification before jumping down someone’s throat. :smile2:


I saw the lol. I got the nuance. There was not trigger action there. 

The automatic assumption that 12 year olds should be kept from understanding what's what is IMO incorrect. That's the only point I was making. If you think that qualifies as "jumping down your thorat," it would seem you're the one who can't handle the discourse.


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## Mylehigh

StarFires said:


> So very true.
> 
> 
> 
> So very true.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You were wrong for the reasons previously stated. It seems you also made yourself appear quite contradictory by:
> 
> 1. Asking people what they think and then arguing with and dismissing their responses because you have your reasons for consulting her. So then, why did you ask adults about how much stock you should put into a child's views and opinions. As they said, you should not have involved her, should not seek her opinion and viewpoint.
> 
> 2. You know she has her own agenda, so why did you consult her? Why entertain her agenda to any degree? No, she does not have stock in your life or marriage.
> 
> 3. You stated "_I get that opinion completely_" and continued to list the exceptions - if this and if that, which means you didn't get that opinion completely or at all. The child should not be consulted regarding your marriage for any reason, on any matter, or under any circumstances. The only exception is with regard to something your wife might have done or said to the child directly.
> 
> 4. Most stepchildren dislike their stepmother, just automatically from the start of dad's relationship with her (links below for your edification if you're interested in confirming and understanding what I say). That's just the way it goes and the fact is well documented. Therefore, a stepchild's view/opinion of their stepmother isn't likely to be favorable, so no surprise there. But you took her words as reflective of your wife, while also stating you know she has an agenda. Totally contradictory. It's also worthy of noting that your daughter's opinions were very general (gossipy kind of stuff) that had nothing personally to do with your daughter. Also, the "changed" comment is a very common sentiment of stepkids regarding their father and his new relationship. It's just jealousy because whatever changing you did was necessary for the sake of your relationship, but kiddo doesn't have you to herself anymore and doesn't like sharing you with a woman who is not her mother. Not just stepkids but all kids are little conniving human beings. That's not kind and seems unfathomable but it's true. It's also well documented that during the little one's calculated attempts to destroy dad's marriage, dads don't accept their little precious ones can possibly be capable of such.
> 
> Stepmonster book excerpt
> The Real Reason Stepchildren (And Adults) Hate Their Stepmother
> Why It's Easier To Love A Stepfather Than A Stepmother


So very true.

At the risk of getting flamed on here, I am going to give a very honest but probably not very popular opinion here that more addresses the root-level problem I see in this parenting decision to ask the kid any questions that assess your decision. As I said in my first post here, it's about putting the kids best interest first. Always. As long as they are kids. Always. 

In my opinion, a divorced parent should raise their kids to the age of moving out of the house before they engage in marriage number 2, 3, 4 or whatever. I believe that the amount of time and energy it takes to build the next romance to a marriage level takes away from the kids. This is regardless of the circumstances - whether you were, God forbid and I sure hope not, widowed, or if you had a failed marriage for any reason, a parent owes it to the kids to be fully present with them until they are out of the house. The amount of dating and doting it takes to get to a second marriage is significant, and the kids often are confused by the parent's priorities. Maybe confused isn't the right word, but I think it's pretty safe to say they don't feel like they are the A#1 top priority while the parent is dating, texting, taking phone calls and all the other thrills and chills that come with the new romantic partner. And then to have it not work out is adding more pain to the package, even if they say it is what they want. How present as a parent can a person be while going through the agony of a failing marriage? Particularly if it is occurring multiple times.

I'm not trying to pile on - just trying to put my prior comment into more of the framework of my overall perspective. FWIW. And again, I know it is pretty uber conservative of me. But I raised three kids and I had countless choices and decisions to make throughout. The one guiding light my wife and I always agreed on, was - what is in our children's best interest in this situation? And that always led us to the decision we were most comfortable with. 

As much as we all want to be or wish to be, none of us are perfect parents. Above all, I wish you and your kids much happiness and success in your next chapter.


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## StarFires

hubbyintrubby said:


> I feel like I have a fairly good handle on the intricacies of blended family life. I was raised in one and I have one of my very own right now. My daughter can have an agenda, feelings and opinions about the home she lives in and who she lives in it with. I am her father and these things are very important to me and they will continue to be very important to me. Her agenda does not rule my life but I will always be interested in how she feels and how she sees things in our home, in her life and with the people she shares each of those with.


I can't educate you on all the aspects of stepfamily life because there are way too many variables, so I didn't mention this part in my reply because it wasn't directly related to the subject matter. Since you opened up by stating you feel you have a fairly good handle on the intricacies of your blended family, I can submit that I beg to differ with both your comments regarding your daughter and your situation with your wife as evidence. I already spoke about your daughter's involvement, which you disagree with, and it's your prerogative to ignore me but your responses tell me how you are - argumentative and rejecting of views that aren't yours. You received what you requested, and then told them and me that you don't agree because you have your listed reasons for doing what you did and for feeling you are right to do it. How often have you done that to your wife? What I didn't mention before is your wife is telling you - by her displeasure and constant criticisms that you are fed up with and separated from her over - that she's not happy. My guess is she's tried to tell you but you didn't listen and had your reasons for not listening, so she gave up on trying to get through to you and started in about literally everything else. That is often the kind of behavior a person exhibits when they can't get their feelings across about the one specific thing that bothers them, so everything begins to bother them and they express their frustration in egregious ways. That boils down to your inability to do anything right all because you did one specific thing majorly wrong. In your case as per your "More Questions Than Answers" post, the inordinate number and continual frequency of arguments support what I'm saying. She feels you don't hear her. There are constant arguments. She gave up on trying to get through to you and resorted to constantly criticizing you. I don't purport to know or imply who is right or who is wrong in those arguments. You didn't give any details in that post, and your wife isn't here to tell her side, so I have no idea and I'm not trying to say. What I am saying is your wife feels unheard and that you don't have a "fairly good handle" on things.


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## Andy1001

hubbyintrubby said:


> I looked back and cannot find anybody that I argued with. I see that I attempted to clarify some points, but I don't think I would argue with anybody on their viewpoints that they are sharing with me.
> 
> I see that your opinion is that my children have no stock in their father's life, nor should she/they be consulted regarding my marriage for any reason, on any matter, or under any circumstances. I do not agree, but I respect your opinion and appreciate you sharing it here. This is the sort of varied viewpoint I was hoping to hear. Thank you.
> 
> I feel like I have a fairly good handle on the intricacies of blended family life. I was raised in one and I have one of my very own right now. My daughter can have an agenda, feelings and opinions about the home she lives in and who she lives in it with. I am her father and these things are very important to me and they will continue to be very important to me. Her agenda does not rule my life but I will always be interested in how she feels and how she sees things in our home, in her life and with the people she shares each of those with.


In my opinion you are correct to ask your daughter her opinion. I also believe that your son is very relieved to be out of the house you shared with this harridan. 
In reading your other threads your wife comes across as a nutcase. Not politically correct but true nonetheless. 
Your nine year old son is showing signs of ptsd from her behavior and her refusing to give him lunch would have been the last straw for me. Her having a screaming fit at five am is a control manouevre, she was upset from the previous night so nobody was allowed sleep.
Stay the **** away from her.


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## hubbyintrubby

StarFires said:


> I can't educate you on all the aspects of stepfamily life because there are way too many variables, so I didn't mention this part in my reply because it wasn't directly related to the subject matter. Since you opened up by stating you feel you have a fairly good handle on the intricacies of your blended family, I can submit that I beg to differ with both your comments regarding your daughter and your situation with your wife as evidence. I already spoke about your daughter's involvement, which you disagree with, and it's your prerogative to ignore me but your responses tell me how you are - argumentative and rejecting of views that aren't yours. You received what you requested, and then told them and me that you don't agree because you have your listed reasons for doing what you did and for feeling you are right to do it. How often have you done that to your wife? What I didn't mention before is your wife is telling you - by her displeasure and constant criticisms that you are fed up with and separated from her over - that she's not happy. My guess is she's tried to tell you but you didn't listen and had your reasons for not listening, so she gave up on trying to get through to you and started in about literally everything else. That is often the kind of behavior a person exhibits when they can't get their feelings across about the one specific thing that bothers them, so everything begins to bother them and they express their frustration in egregious ways. That boils down to your inability to do anything right all because you did one specific thing majorly wrong. In your case as per your "More Questions Than Answers" post, the inordinate number and continual frequency of arguments support what I'm saying. She feels you don't hear her. There are constant arguments. She gave up on trying to get through to you and resorted to constantly criticizing you. I don't purport to know or imply who is right or who is wrong in those arguments. You didn't give any details in that post, and your wife isn't here to tell her side, so I have no idea and I'm not trying to say. What I am saying is your wife feels unheard and that you don't have a "fairly good handle" on things.


Thank you for sharing your opinions with me. I do appreciate it very much.


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## OnTheFly

oops, ignore.


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## hubbyintrubby

Bixby62 said:


> So very true.
> 
> At the risk of getting flamed on here, I am going to give a very honest but probably not very popular opinion here that more addresses the root-level problem I see in this parenting decision to ask the kid any questions that assess your decision. As I said in my first post here, it's about putting the kids best interest first. Always. As long as they are kids. Always.
> 
> In my opinion, a divorced parent should raise their kids to the age of moving out of the house before they engage in marriage number 2, 3, 4 or whatever. I believe that the amount of time and energy it takes to build the next romance to a marriage level takes away from the kids. This is regardless of the circumstances - whether you were, God forbid and I sure hope not, widowed, or if you had a failed marriage for any reason, a parent owes it to the kids to be fully present with them until they are out of the house. The amount of dating and doting it takes to get to a second marriage is significant, and the kids often are confused by the parent's priorities. Maybe confused isn't the right word, but I think it's pretty safe to say they don't feel like they are the A#1 top priority while the parent is dating, texting, taking phone calls and all the other thrills and chills that come with the new romantic partner. And then to have it not work out is adding more pain to the package, even if they say it is what they want. How present as a parent can a person be while going through the agony of a failing marriage? Particularly if it is occurring multiple times.
> 
> I'm not trying to pile on - just trying to put my prior comment into more of the framework of my overall perspective. FWIW. And again, I know it is pretty uber conservative of me. But I raised three kids and I had countless choices and decisions to make throughout. The one guiding light my wife and I always agreed on, was - what is in our children's best interest in this situation? And that always led us to the decision we were most comfortable with.
> 
> As much as we all want to be or wish to be, none of us are perfect parents. Above all, I wish you and your kids much happiness and success in your next chapter.


I'd flame you if I didn't somewhat agree with that stance. It's something I regret, jumping into a new relationship much too early after divorce with small children. If I had the choice to go back and do it all over again, I would make different decisions with my children more in mind. There were definitely times that I was not fully present when the kids were with me after their mother and I split. I know I can't get that time back, but I also know that I won't make the same mistake twice if my second marriage ends up not working out.


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## Rubix Cubed

FTR I think you did the right thing by discussing it with her. 
Things are and will be hard enough for her and her brother without feeling like they are just a piece of furniture.


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## Katiex

I am sorry for your situation. You know both your wife and daughter. If her comments are true that your wife behaves that way then you should take her at her word. Some people come into our lives and change us so slowly that we don’t notice. The most important thing as a parent is that we keep a positive relationship with our children even if our marriage hits a tough spot.


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## Openminded

Your daughter is aware your wife doesn't really like her. And she doesn't like seeing the knock-down-drag-out fights between your wife and you. She doesn't feel she belongs there and your son probably doesn't either. 

Your wife doesn't want a divorce and she's not going to let go easily. She thinks she can talk you into reconciling and maybe she can. While she may promise to change, keep in mind that temporary change is easy but permanent change is not. Few people will do the work necessary to really change. 

If you're going to reconcile with her (and it appears her recent talks with you have at least made you think somewhat about staying) then let your children live full-time with their mom. It appears they don't have much of a life when they're at your house.


----------



## WorkingWife

hubbyintrubby said:


> Thank you for that credit @OnTheFly In all honesty, it was a good natured attempt to find out how she was really feeling about the situation as a whole. She has been struggling, along with her brother for a while now so bad that when I'm at work and they are home with my wife, they spend whole days in their beds reading or on screens other than to eat just to stay out of other parts of the house. She had never really wanted to talk much about it and I could tell it was a moment in which she would be open and honest with me. My son who is younger still refuses to talk to anybody about it. And yes, I have thought about therapy for him for this matter.


I think you are the parent regardless of what your daughter says, you can look and see that your children are not happy if they are hiding in their rooms. That being said, most 12 year old girls don't jump up and down with glee at the idea of a step mother. I do think it's telling that your daughter's complaint is how the SM treats OTHER people, not just her. That's pretty mature for 12.

Anyhow, you already know what needs to be done and I hope you are not wavering on doing it. I would let both your kids know they are important to you and you are always there for them in life, but that they have nothing to do with the break up. You would never let someone mistreat them, but this break up would happen regardless of them because sadly it turns out that you and SM are not compatible the way you had hoped you would be.


----------



## hubbyintrubby

WorkingWife said:


> I think you are the parent regardless of what your daughter says, you can look and see that your children are not happy if they are hiding in their rooms. That being said, most 12 year old girls don't jump up and down with glee at the idea of a step mother. I do think it's telling that your daughter's complaint is how the SM treats OTHER people, not just her. That's pretty mature for 12.
> 
> Anyhow, you already know what needs to be done and I hope you are not wavering on doing it. I would let both your kids know they are important to you and you are always there for them in life, but that they have nothing to do with the break up. You would never let someone mistreat them, but this break up would happen regardless of them because sadly it turns out that you and SM are not compatible the way you had hoped you would be.


Despite what some people think here, I have the ability to separate what I think and my decision making process from what my daughter's feelings and wishes are. That same sentiment struck me also, that she wasn't making it as self-centered as some 12 years olds might, making it just about how she is spoken to by her stepmom, but about how she treats all people in the home and others...and ABOUT others.

She is most definitely putting on the full-court press in trying to guilt me back into the house.


----------



## WorkingWife

hubbyintrubby said:


> She is most definitely putting on the full-court press in trying to guilt me back into the house.


This is to be expected. This forum is filled with threads from people who gave in and went back under similar circumstances. I'm pretty sure it never worked out long term for anyone.

Here is something else for you to think about:

Your wife does not embrace your children. 

Right this minute I am sitting in my step-daughter's house. (I'm staying for the summer to watch her kids while they're out of school since both parents work.) I've been divorced from her father for over 20 years. But back when I met him and fell in love with him, I fell in love with his 3 kids too. They were his, a part of him. It was my INSTINCT to be interested in them, and nurture and guide them and root for them, etc. 

Your wife married you and may love you very much, but it doesn't sound like she thinks of *your *children as part of HER marriage, HER family now. Even if she wants to "change and do better" for your MARRIAGE -- she can't *make *herself suddenly feel motherly toward your kids. Her real feelings for them are probably closer to competition and irritation. She might be able to make herself go through the motions of acting nicer to them, but will she ever truly embrace them and want them around? 

How can she make herself feel something she simply does not feel? And no matter what argument she makes to you, if she did feel it, it would show.


----------



## hubbyintrubby

WorkingWife said:


> This is to be expected. This forum is filled with threads from people who gave in and went back under similar circumstances. I'm pretty sure it never worked out long term for anyone.
> 
> Here is something else for you to think about:
> 
> Your wife does not embrace your children.
> 
> Right this minute I am sitting in my step-daughter's house. (I'm staying for the summer to watch her kids while they're out of school since both parents work.) I've been divorced from her father for over 20 years. But back when I met him and fell in love with him, I fell in love with his 3 kids too. They were his, a part of him. It was my INSTINCT to be interested in them, and nurture and guide them and root for them, etc.
> 
> Your wife married you and may love you very much, but it doesn't sound like she thinks of *your *children as part of HER marriage, HER family now. Even if she wants to "change and do better" for your MARRIAGE -- she can't *make *herself suddenly feel motherly toward your kids. Her real feelings for them are probably closer to competition and irritation. She might be able to make herself go through the motions of acting nicer to them, but will she ever truly embrace them and want them around?
> 
> How can she make herself feel something she simply does not feel? And no matter what argument she makes to you, if she did feel it, it would show.


I myself have reversed course in my marriage and come back when I didn't feel like it was the right thing to do on a few occasions. Same promises every time.Therapy will help, we'll get help, we just need more communication, better communication, I'll have a better attitude, I'll watch what I say, how I say it, etc etc etc.................

That is beautiful about being close to your stepchildren still. I have a feeling, that if I were allowed, I'd have the same with at least 2 or 3 of the 4 of her children. They like me, they enjoy being around me and with me and doing things with me or us when I'm around. They are comfortable with me, they tell me that they love me. 

I'm not sure how she could value them, while also making them feel the way they do and causing feelings inside of themselves that they would be better off and we would be better off if we were alone, just the 3 of us. The value would shine through, you're absolutely right, if it were there. She can't seem to get them out of the house fast enough when they're back off to their moms for a few days, TBH.


----------



## WorkingWife

hubbyintrubby said:


> I'm not sure how she could value them, while also making them feel the way they do and causing feelings inside of themselves that they would be better off and we would be better off if we were alone, just the 3 of us. The value would shine through, you're absolutely right, if it were there. She can't seem to get them out of the house fast enough when they're back off to their moms for a few days, TBH.


Exactly. Sometimes it's not what someone says or does to make others feel unvalued so much as what they don't say or do. You mentioned how she lost it over your son's cleaning skills w/in earshot of him, but other than that the only thing I know about her interaction with them is that they avoid her. 

There can definitely be a natural tension/resistance from children to step parents. But you're there, what do you see? Does she look forward to the kids coming? Does she ever plan things for their visit? Does she show interest in them when they're around? Or is she just "your wife" and the kids happen to be there and she hangs out with you and just puts up with their presence until the weekend is over?


----------



## Blondilocks

hubbyintrubby said:


> Looking for some varying viewpoints on a situation. I've been separated from my wife for about a week. Close to when I left last week, I had a discussion with my daughter who is 12. My wife is her stepmother. I asked her some question pertaining to opinion on leaving, her viewpoints on the home and her stepmom. A lot of what she had to say was negative and painted my wife in a bad light saying she did not like her because she is very rude when she speaks to people and my daughter feels as if my wife has changed me from the man who I was when she was younger.
> 
> *How much stock do I put into her views and opinions in my current situation? My children are my world and I am very self-admittedly very protective of them.*




You put full stock in the fact that your daughter and son are unhappy. Her opinion on your marriage and her step-mother are irrelevant. 

You say you were blinded by love when you married her. You need to seriously examine this. You decided to marry a woman with whom you were in high conflict from the get-go. That doesn't foster love. Examine your motives - fear, neediness, loneliness, desperation...?


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## hubbyintrubby

Blondilocks said:


> [/B]
> 
> You put full stock in the fact that your daughter and son are unhappy. Her opinion on your marriage and her step-mother are irrelevant.
> 
> You say you were blinded by love when you married her. You need to seriously examine this. You decided to marry a woman with whom you were in high conflict from the get-go. That doesn't foster love. Examine your motives - fear, neediness, loneliness, desperation...?


Thanks @Blondilocks

I've been doing a lot of soul searching and self-reflection work this week. The things you mention, fear, neediness, loneliness, desperation are all things that have gone through my mind. Blinded by love is a general term but overall there are things I skipped over when they probably shouldn't have been, red flags missed or ignored in the name of making things work.


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## 3Xnocharm

Please do not attempt to make this work with her any more. I dont see how you possibly could in good conscience knowing how she treats your kids and how they feel about all of it. I think it would be extremely harmful and disrespectful on your part. I feel terrible for them that they have been stuck in this. 

When you know better you do better.


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## BluesPower

hubbyintrubby said:


> Thanks @Blondilocks
> 
> I've been doing a lot of soul searching and self-reflection work this week. The things you mention, fear, neediness, loneliness, desperation are all things that have gone through my mind. Blinded by love is a general term but overall there are things I skipped over when they probably shouldn't have been, red flags missed or ignored in the name of making things work.


Listen, not to pile on, but look... You as a person and a man, HAVE TO HAVE some level of self-respect, you have to have some level of self love. 

Because of your fear and horrible codependency you have allowed all of the things that have gone on these last few years. 

Look, there is really no other way to say it... it is past time to MAN UP, do you get it. Way Past Time. You have allowed all of this crap to continue because you were scared. 

It is time to get past that... Look at it like this, how much freaking worse could it get? What you might find a GF that likes you and your kids, likes to have sex with you, likes to be with you, is not insane????? 

Really dude, what is the VERY WORST thing that could happen??? I don't think she will shoot you in the head, but is that so much worse that what you have been living??????


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## hubbyintrubby

BluesPower said:


> Listen, not to pile on, but look... You as a person and a man, HAVE TO HAVE some level of self-respect, you have to have some level of self love.
> 
> Because of your fear and horrible codependency you have allowed all of the things that have gone on these last few years.
> 
> Look, there is really no other way to say it... it is past time to MAN UP, do you get it. Way Past Time. You have allowed all of this crap to continue because you were scared.
> 
> It is time to get past that... Look at it like this, how much freaking worse could it get? What you might find a GF that likes you and your kids, likes to have sex with you, likes to be with you, is not insane?????
> 
> Really dude, what is the VERY WORST thing that could happen??? I don't think she will shoot you in the head, but is that so much worse that what you have been living??????


Codependency is a huge problem between her and I, that I do know. Codependency, romantic entanglement, if you're familiar with that. My fears, my people-pleasing tendencies. All of them. I have allowed myself to be treated the way I have been treated.

There are things that could get worse, but many things that probably could not. The bedroom is actually one place where we are both VERY happy and our chemistry there keeps us sane in other areas. 

The worst thing that could happen is that I could end up miserably alone, and for a person with codependency issues, that is a nightmare all in itself.


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## BarbedFenceRider

I agree, 
Co-dependancy, fear of failure, loneliness. I get it. But YOU have to identify it.

The measure of true "getting it" would be for her to initiate healing with your kids. For her to "own it" and show that she loves the family, you and the kids.

But we are talking unicorns here, right?

Work on yourself and the kids. Your a good dad. Not a piece of furniture for people to plug into and out of their lives.


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## 3Xnocharm

There are things way worse than being on your own...someone mistreating and disrespecting your kids is one.


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## Elizabeth001

Codependency = your own nightmare 

It’s a circle you have to break out of ALL BY YOURSELF. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Openminded

Have you seen an attorney yet? Or has she managed to convince you to come back?


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## Openminded

Sounds like you've let sex convince you to gloss over other issues?


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## Blondilocks

If you keep letting your kids be crapped on for the sake of kitty, I can guarantee that you will end up miserably alone. And, you will have deserved it.


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## WorkingWife

hubbyintrubby said:


> The worst thing that could happen is that I could end up miserably alone, and for a person with codependency issues, that is a nightmare all in itself.


But you wont, if you don't want to be. Go to the mall -- take a look around. You'll see the most hapless looking people walking along, holding hands, looking all in love. You will always be able to find *someone*. 

Regardless, it would probably be good for you to be alone for awhile. I have a history as a very co-dependent person, especially in my last marriage. I filed for divorce a couple years ago and met someone new right away just by chance. Things were good between us but we lived very far apart. He wanted to move in together, but I just *couldn't do it* for some reason. 

Then about a year and a half into our relationship, I realized that I really love him and we're very compatible, but honestly, I'm also perfectly happy when we're apart (for weeks to months at a time) *Then* I felt like ...I've got this. I can be with this person and not lose myself. If things don't work out, I can walk and be perfectly happy.

It is SO liberating to enjoy and appreciate him so much but not feel a desperate need to compromise myself to make sure it works out.

Anyhow, use your brain to override your emotions here. You WILL be able to find someone when you are ready to, and this time you can be prepared to not settle out of fear of being alone.


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## hubbyintrubby

So...update. I'm back at home. I feel like maybe I'm overreacting and this is really just growing pains from starting a blended family. Maybe I'm too sensitive to the things that are happening in the house and I just don't know how to cope with the troubles and problems.


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## OnTheFly

You had sex with her and she made some promises?

Not trying to criticize or shame you. It's just a pattern I've seen many times on these types of threads.


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## Deejo

hubbyintrubby said:


> So...update. I'm back at home. I feel like maybe I'm overreacting and this is really just growing pains from starting a blended family. Maybe I'm too sensitive to the things that are happening in the house and I just don't know how to cope with the troubles and problems.


Well ... now you can deal with the consequences of both your wife and your children not knowing what they can trust from your actions.

You handled this entire episode ... poorly. You have now effectively undermined whatever credibility you had with your wife, and potentially your kids.

You painted a rather unhinged picture of your wife, who treats both you, and your kids badly. I don't know if that image is accurate or not ... but you did not paint a flattering picture.

You consulted with your child about the state of the relationship and issues as she saw them, likely from her perspective because you intended to do something about it as a result ... and you didn't.

All we have to go on, are the words you provide us with. You have painted a very unhealthy picture of the state of your relationship with your wife and overall family dynamic.

Are you overreacting, too sensitive and don't know how to cope? That's a question only you can answer. And if the answer is an affirmative ... then dude ... these circumstances don't get better. They get worse. You're 'hang in there' attitude that you think will improve things, has just set you up for further conflict and disrespect. 

I'll bottom line things for you. You're fundamental issue is fear. You need to get to the other side of fear. Whether or not you choose to stay and change the dynamic, or to leave, you need to make choices regardless of the consequence, that fosters the dynamic that YOU want for your relationship with your wife, and your children, rather than second guessing, or doubting what your own gut is telling you.


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## Deejo

Go buy the book "No More Mr. Nice Guy"

You're welcome.


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## Openminded

That was predictable once you slowed down posting and then stopped. At least you came back and admitted it. Most don't. 

Hopefully, you'll give your ex full custody so that your children are around your wife as little as possible. Your relationship with them likely won't be the same going forward but you've made your choice.


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## Blondilocks

Has she made any promises or concessions? Or, did her golden vagina convince you that it's all your and your kids' fault?

Even women don't respect men who are *****-whipped.


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## hubbyintrubby

So far so good with the kids being at the house. They have had minimal contact with my wife, which is a good thing. The kids leave for a week-long vacation with their mother tomorrow morning. 

Wife has left all parenting decision having to do with my kids up to me with no interference at all.


----------



## WorkingWife

hubbyintrubby said:


> So...update. I'm back at home. I feel like maybe I'm overreacting and this is really just growing pains from starting a blended family. Maybe I'm too sensitive to the things that are happening in the house and I just don't know how to cope with the troubles and problems.


I would recommend you keep a journal of how you're feeling every day. How does she act around your children? How do your children seem to do around her? How are YOU behaving as a human being who does not want to be an unhinged, angry, "drama" person. How much joy are you getting from your relationship? Read over it in a couple weeks to a month.

I usually love a happy ending but I honestly don't have a good feeling about this at all, for a few reasons:

1) The way she loudly proclaimed her anger at your young son over a cleaning job within earshot of him shows amazing immaturity and inconsideration and lack of empathy on her part.

2) Hasn't Your relationship already been on the rocks for awhile with talk of divorce/separation? Has she been able to change long term before? She is who she is.

3) You become a lesser person when in her orbit, due to your frustration. Yelling and acting in a way you are ashamed of. Other women have never brought this side out in you. Other women have never acted unhinged in the way she has.

Personally, I think you've been UNDER reacting to the reality of the situation. When I read your very first post I was ready to take her side because I've been a step mother and I know how hard the blended family dynamic is. But when you described her loud criticism of a NINE year old's cleaning job, I knew she had problems and I believe she will always be an issue.

I hope you are prepared to walk the VERY FIRST TIME one of you slips into yelling, screaming, tantrum mode with the other, or as soon as you see she is cold and indifferent to your children.

I'm not saying this to come down on you, just to let you know as an outside observer, I am very concerned for you. Please keep us posted and let us know if you have troubles. Most criticism you get here is not judgmental in that it is coming from people who know they keep making their own mistakes in relationships, and understand how hard it is to see clearly when you're in the thick of things, that's why most of us are here.


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## WorkingWife

hubbyintrubby said:


> So far so good with the kids being at the house. They have had minimal contact with my wife, which is a good thing. The kids leave for a week-long vacation with their mother tomorrow morning.
> 
> Wife has left all parenting decision having to do with my kids up to me with no interference at all.


Why is the children having minimal contact with her a good thing?

I would be very cautious with her leaving all parenting decisions up to you. It's good that she does not interfere in the moment or take it upon herself to set rules and dish out discipline, but being married to you she needs to have a say with you in private about what is and is not acceptable and how situations are handled, or she will eventually become very resentful of your children and see them as a wedge between the two of you.


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## hubbyintrubby

WorkingWife said:


> I would recommend you keep a journal of how you're feeling every day. How does she act around your children? How do your children seem to do around her? How are YOU behaving as a human being who does not want to be an unhinged, angry, "drama" person. How much joy are you getting from your relationship? Read over it in a couple weeks to a month.
> 
> I usually love a happy ending but I honestly don't have a good feeling about this at all, for a few reasons:
> 
> 1) The way she loudly proclaimed her anger at your young son over a cleaning job within earshot of him shows amazing immaturity and inconsideration and lack of empathy on her part.
> 
> 2) Hasn't Your relationship already been on the rocks for awhile with talk of divorce/separation? Has she been able to change long term before? She is who she is.
> 
> 3) You become a lesser person when in her orbit, due to your frustration. Yelling and acting in a way you are ashamed of. Other women have never brought this side out in you. Other women have never acted unhinged in the way she has.
> 
> Personally, I think you've been UNDER reacting to the reality of the situation. When I read your very first post I was ready to take her side because I've been a step mother and I know how hard the blended family dynamic is. But when you described her loud criticism of a NINE year old's cleaning job, I knew she had problems and I believe she will always be an issue.
> 
> I hope you are prepared to walk the VERY FIRST TIME one of you slips into yelling, screaming, tantrum mode with the other, or as soon as you see she is cold and indifferent to your children.
> 
> I'm not saying this to come down on you, just to let you know as an outside observer, I am very concerned for you. Please keep us posted and let us know if you have troubles. Most criticism you get here is not judgmental in that it is coming from people who know they keep making their own mistakes in relationships, and understand how hard it is to see clearly when you're in the thick of things, that's why most of us are here.


The journal is a wonderful suggestion. I will start that right away this evening. That is a great idea.

I still have a huge pit in my gut about it too. I don't have the peaceful, light, easy feelings I'm supposed to have around my wife. I constantly feel like the next shoe is about to drop, but don't know when, where, why or how.

Yep, we've been on and off the rocks many times over and over again. She has not made many changes to herself, no. Small changes, yes..maybe enough to get by short term...then it's off to the races again. Admittedly, I feel I do the same though. Small change, enough to get by for the time being, which sucks and is probably frustrating to her as well.

I appreciate your, and others' opinions and observations and don't feel judged. They keep me grounded in a way that not many people in my life are able to do for me right now. I will keep you posted as I pretty much know now that the next trouble is right around the corner.


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## hubbyintrubby

As I'm sure many of you, if not all of you that read my post expected, I am back and feeling the exact same way as I had before. Yesterday, I found myself feeling verbally abused yet again by my wife of just over a year and a half. Aggressiveness, yelling, swearing, personal attacks, all the same as before. The big change was that I found myself not reacting to her as I had in the past with anger in return. I found myself quiet, patient, calm. I told her I would speak to her when her tone could match mine and when she started caring how she spoke to me. The most hurtful part of the way she was speaking to me was when, in the middle of her talking to me the way she was, she stopped and told me that she did not care how she was speaking to me, then continued. That to me shows absolute intent on trying to hurt me with her words, with her tone, with the way she was speaking to me yet again. This all came about when I did not properly react and reply to a frustration she was having about me not transferring my paycheck into our shared account in a time she deemed appropriate. 

Nearing the end of my rope.


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## MEM2020

The post below is the beginning of a substantive discussion.

Your insecurities drove you to ignore the fact that she would make a poor step mother. Her insecurities MAKE her a poor step mother because she can’t tolerate the competition for your attentions (time, treasure and talent). 

Absent substantive complaints about your children, her conduct is almost certainly driven by insecurity/jealousy. And THAT creates a downward spiral: she needles without provocation and you defend which PROVES to her that the children are more important than she is. 

I’ve traversed a ‘lite’ version of this terrain and am familiar with its general contours. 





hubbyintrubby said:


> Thanks @Blondilocks
> 
> I've been doing a lot of soul searching and self-reflection work this week. The things you mention, fear, neediness, loneliness, desperation are all things that have gone through my mind. Blinded by love is a general term but overall there are things I skipped over when they probably shouldn't have been, red flags missed or ignored in the name of making things work.


----------



## Openminded

Nearing it? You should have fallen off already. 

She doesn't want to do the work to have a good marriage but she also doesn't want a divorce so she said and did a few things to reel you back in. And it worked for a very short while. The problem is that she can't keep it going so now things have returned to how they've always been. The question is what are you going to do about it?


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## hubbyintrubby

Openminded said:


> Nearing it? You should have fallen off already.
> 
> She doesn't want to do the work to have a good marriage but she also doesn't want a divorce so she said and did a few things to reel you back in. And it worked for a very short while. The problem is that she can't keep it going so now things have returned to how they've always been. The question is what are you going to do about it?


So far I've prided myself on being a patient man. A forgiving man. A patient and forgiving husband. I guess I'm just not clear on my own personal boundary and how far to take my patience and my forgiveness. I feel very weak to just stand in and keep taking the hits without doing anything of substance about it. I guess I'm looking for advice of others where to take this. I know I'm reaching my limit as to how much I can take. At least I know that much.


----------



## Andy1001

hubbyintrubby said:


> So far I've prided myself on being a patient man. A forgiving man. A patient and forgiving husband. I guess I'm just not clear on my own personal boundary and how far to take my patience and my forgiveness. I feel very weak to just stand in and keep taking the hits without doing anything of substance about it. I guess I'm looking for advice of others where to take this. I know I'm reaching my limit as to how much I can take. At least I know that much.


You got good advice and didn’t want to take it. 
Start at the beginning of your thread and this time actually read what you’re being told instead of just agreeing with everyone and then doing nothing. Replace the words patient and forgiving with codependent and weak and you will be nearer the mark. 
You have lost any semblance of respect that your wife may (or may not) have had for you and you’re in the process of losing the trust of your children. 
What’s left?
Just your own self respect/esteem and for what it’s worth I don’t think you have much anyway.
Maybe look for some, what do you think?


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## hubbyintrubby

Andy1001 said:


> You got good advice and didn’t want to take it.
> Start at the beginning of your thread and this time actually read what you’re being told instead of just agreeing with everyone and then doing nothing.
> You have lost any semblance of respect that your wife may (or may not) have had for you and you’re in the process of losing the trust of your children.
> What’s left?
> Just your own self respect/esteem and for what it’s worth I don’t think you have much anyway.


You're absolutely right when you say my self respect and self esteem is quite low. That is the truth. I have taken some of the advice of members here, but not the big, important ones I guess I'm scared to take and put into action. I appreciate the 2x4 @Andy1001 thank you.


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## Openminded

Patient and forgiving people are very often used as doormats by those who are not as kind. You've been one for sure but I hope you've finally seen the light. Your children deserve a better deal than they gotten and so do you.


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## hubbyintrubby

Openminded said:


> Patient and forgiving people are very often used as doormats by those who are not as kind. You've been one for sure but I hope you've finally seen the light. Your children deserve a better deal than they gotten and so do you.


I was a doormat in my first marriage and I'm a doormat in this one. 

How many times do you let someone kick you in the shins before you take yourself out of the equation so they can't anymore? Too many times for me.


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## Openminded

Many people put up with it forever, hoping things will change, because they're too afraid of the unknown to get out. Hopefully you really will move on this time. It won't be easy because your wife seems determined to stay married to you but it can be done. Sooner rather than later would be better for all of you.


----------



## BluesPower

hubbyintrubby said:


> As I'm sure many of you, if not all of you that read my post expected, I am back and feeling the exact same way as I had before. Yesterday, I found myself feeling verbally abused yet again by my wife of just over a year and a half. Aggressiveness, yelling, swearing, personal attacks, all the same as before. The big change was that I found myself not reacting to her as I had in the past with anger in return. I found myself quiet, patient, calm. I told her I would speak to her when her tone could match mine and when she started caring how she spoke to me. The most hurtful part of the way she was speaking to me was when, in the middle of her talking to me the way she was, she stopped and told me that she did not care how she was speaking to me, then continued. That to me shows absolute intent on trying to hurt me with her words, with her tone, with the way she was speaking to me yet again. This all came about when I did not properly react and reply to a frustration she was having about me not transferring my paycheck into our shared account in a time she deemed appropriate.
> 
> Nearing the end of my rope.


Yeah, this post is quite shocking, I am just appalled....NOT.

Not only should you be nearing the end of the rope, you should not have any rope left.

You know what, you could be get ugliest, dumbest, person in the world, and we all know that you are not... but if you were, you still would not deserve this treatment. 

Dogs don't deserve this treatment... 

Dude, please get a clue and get out of this...


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## Elizabeth001

BluesPower said:


> Yeah, this post is quite shocking, I am just appalled....NOT.
> 
> 
> 
> Not only should you be nearing the end of the rope, you should not have any rope left.
> 
> 
> 
> You know what, you could be get ugliest, dumbest, person in the world, and we all know that you are not... but if you were, you still would not deserve this treatment.
> 
> 
> 
> Dogs don't deserve this treatment...
> 
> 
> 
> Dude, please get a clue and get out of this...




His kids sure as hell don’t deserve it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hubbyintrubby

I guess I just never thought that what happens was enough to leave a marriage over. These problems don't happen in front of the children anymore and I've just kind of gotten used to the blow ups as a part of life now.


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## Affaircare

@hubbyintrubby,

I'm going to share something with you that I'm hoping may change your perspective. You are an abused spouse. Now, if you were a female and it was the male who was verbally, emotionally, and mentally abusing you, there would be a TON of help available to you. There are support groups, whole centers for abused women, and even safe houses...for women. There's not as much out there for men, but for now, let's not let that discourage us. 

The first thing I want to share with you is a PDF called the Power and Control Wheel: http://www.ncdsv.org/images/PowerControlwheelNOSHADING.pdf It's called the Power and Control Wheel because the Abuser is being abusive so they can gain Power in the relationship, and so they can be in Control. Please note, this particular wheel demonstrates exactly what I was talking about in the first paragraph: it's written as if the female is the "Victim" and the male is a "Batterer." This bias infuriates me, and I claim that right as a survivor of abuse. Still the concept is sound, so I wanted you to see that typically an Abuser uses more than one layer or level of abuse to keep the Victim under their Power and Control. 

So the next thing to understand is that abuse has a cycle. That is to say, it follows a pattern: https://i0.wp.com/ahangoverfreelife.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/TEAR-cycle.jpg?ssl=1 As you can see from this cycle, there is the red phase where the abuse perpetrates their chosen form of abuse...and the victim tries to reason and placates (it's red because the victim wants it to STOP). Then there's the green phase where the abuser cries and makes promises...and the victim has hope and wants to believe them (it's green because the vicitim wants this phase to GO on forever)! Then there's the long, yellow phase where the abuser builds tension, is moody and critical, and starts to make threats...and the victim walks on eggshells knowing that the other shoe is going to drop and tries to appease the abuser (it's yellow because the victim feels CAUTIOUS). 

See why victim's stay? We WANT the abuser to love us. We WANT them to keep their promises and be kinder, more loving people. We HOPE that this time will be different or that they mean it this time. Unfortunately, it is like we have blinders on, because in real life as much as we want the abuser to love us, they don't. You know how I can tell? Love is not a "feeling"--it is an "action." It's how you treat someone. Love is a verb. It is how you ACT...and abusing someone is nowhere near love. In real life as much as we want the abuser to keep their promises and be kinder, more loving people, they don't. Know how I can tell? If they kept their promises, they would have never abused again, and they did. In real life as much as we hope the abuser will "mean it this time", they don't. Know how I can tell? They would have to look at themselves and admit to themselves that how they are acting is wrong, and the abusers would much rather vent their rage at us than have to look at the (wo)man in the mirror! 

So @hubbyintrubby, here is my suggestion to you. Start Googling topics like "Abused Men" and "Domestic Violence Against Men" and start to learn. Learn that you are not alone--many men are abused and don't know it. Learn about abuse so you can recognize it. Learn what you can do to get out of an abusive situation, and it doesn't always start with divorce...for example, one thing you could do today, right now, is just what you did! "I will talk to you when you can be calm and speak to me respectfully" and then walk out of the room, go to the nearest LOCKABLE room, and lock the door. If that doesn't work, walk out of the house and take a walk for an hour or so. If that doesn't work, take a drive and go see a movie or take yourself out to dinner. See how it's like progressively further and longer? 

Here are a few links to get you started:

https://www.helpguide.org/articles/abuse/help-for-men-who-are-being-abused.htm
https://psychcentral.com/blog/invisible-victims-when-men-are-abused/
https://www.webmd.com/balance/features/help-for-battered-men#1


Finally, here is the link to the National Domestic Violence Hotline, which has a LOT of good information: https://www.thehotline.org/
and a link to my very favorite Verbal Abuse website: Welcome to Dr. Irene's Verbal Abuse Site|Dr. Irene's Verbal Abuse (Site)! (I like the cat!) LOL


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## 3Xnocharm

hubbyintrubby said:


> Thank you for that credit @OnTheFly In all honesty, it was a good natured attempt to find out how she was really feeling about the situation as a whole. She has been struggling, along with her brother for a while now so bad that when I'm at work and they are home with my wife, they spend whole days in their beds reading or on screens other than to eat just to stay out of other parts of the house. She had never really wanted to talk much about it and I could tell it was a moment in which she would be open and honest with me. My son who is younger still refuses to talk to anybody about it. And yes, I have thought about therapy for him for this matter.


Bringing this post back up because this is of utmost importance. Your children are uncomfortable with daily living in their own home because of how this woman treats them, and how she treats their father. This fact alone should be enough to propel you permanently out the door. Your children are getting a terrible example of married life by watching you allow this woman to treat you the way she does, and they may have emotion scarring from how THEY are being treated.


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## Ursula

If I were lucky enough to be a Mom and was in a situation like yours, you damn right I’d put 100% stock into what my child tells me about their stepparent.


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## BluesPower

hubbyintrubby said:


> I guess I just never thought that what happens was enough to leave a marriage over. These problems don't happen in front of the children anymore and I've just kind of gotten used to the blow ups as a part of life now.


For goodness sake... What would be enough???

How about she gets a hammer and beats you in the head while you are sleeping? Is that enough? 

How about the stabs you, not real deep but just little 1/4 jabs so that you bleed a lot but don't die? 

How about she just uses a piece of bamboo and just canes you or something... IS THAT ENOUGH. 

Listen, you are being abused. Lot's of people like you just cannot see it, or they are just in denial...

PLEASE WAKE UP, for you sake, for your self esteem, for any kids, or dogs or whatever... GET OUT...


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## hubbyintrubby

@Affaircare The narrative of the abuse of men versus women is probably something that has held me back from feeling like a victim. That, and the fact that I've retaliated in ways that would probably be viewed as abusive when she's spoken to me the way she has. I've let my anger get the better of me, thrown things, punched walls, etc. In many ways I still find it very difficult to see myself as a kind of victim, only because I've let it happen and continue for as long as I have. Thank you very much for the material you linked.
@3Xnocharm My children are my life, and you are right. I have not been treating them like they are. I said a short time ago that these things have not been happening with the children around and I was wrong. Roughly 2 weeks ago, my wife had a blow up at me and they were just down the stairs from where we were and 99% heard everything she said...including badmouthing their mother who I am trying to have a positive co-parenting relationship with. My current wife holds a very low view of my ex-wife and isn't afraid of letting me know that. She doesn't think my kids have ever heard her talk about her in a negative fashion, but with the amount that she does so, there's no possible way that that is true.


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## Openminded

If you're going to stay, give your ex primary custody (I'm assuming you share custody). You can see them on the weekend, for the day only, away from your wife. I doubt you'll do that but, for your children's sake, you should.


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## Openminded

Your wife can pretend that the children aren't aware but they always are. Right now they probably don't blame you but at some point they will if you continue down this path.


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## Affaircare

hubbyintrubby said:


> @Affaircare The narrative of the abuse of men versus women is probably something that has held me back from feeling like a victim. That, and the fact that I've retaliated in ways that would probably be viewed as abusive when she's spoken to me the way she has. I've let my anger get the better of me, thrown things, punched walls, etc. In many ways I still find it very difficult to see myself as a kind of victim, only because I've let it happen and continue for as long as I have. Thank you very much for the material you linked.


 @hubbyintrubby, 

I can truly understand how you'd feel that way and think that way, because after all, how abused could you be if you abuse right back...right? My point to you is not "who abused who first" or "who abuses worse", but rather just to point out that the name for what is being done to you is Domestic Violence. I am not there in your home or in your skin, and I am not able to be a judge--but I can tell you that if someone attacks you over and over again, it is human nature to eventually try to defend yourself (and thereby, to do things that are not your true nature). My imagery for that is "poking a bear"--if you poke a bear that is asleep, at first it may not attack, but if you keep poking it, eventually the bear WILL take a swipe at you. That is sort of what it sounds like is happening here: you are the bear and you just want to be left alone, and she keeps poking you and poking you...and yep eventually you growl and swipe at her, at which point she points out to you "See? You have anger issues too!" 

So instead of thinking of it like Victim/Abuser I don't like to think of myself as a victim. I think of it more like the one BEING abused and the one DOING the abusing...Abuser/Abusee maybe or something like that. It's just a way of identifying or labeling. 

So keep reading up on those sites I linked and keep learning about abuse, especially verbal, emotional and mental abuse. Believe it or not, if there is stuff being thrown, walls being punched, maybe even pushes or shoves...that's PHYSICAL abuse too! And yep, you better believe that a woman can physically abuse a man! Yes, it's true, we may be smaller in height, weight, or strength than a man, but a woman can still slap, punch, kick or stratch and every one of those actions IS PHYSICAL ABUSE. 

Also, keep working on YOUR stuff. I think of it as one street, but there are two sides of the street--yours and hers. If you lose your temper and throw things, it is cool and fine to admit to yourself that is not the man you want to be and learn how to control your anger better. What's NOT cool is allowing her to harm you (or your children) because she is unwilling to learn to control her anger. See...whilst it is understandable that you'd be angry from her verbal barrage, acting in anger is still acting in anger. It is wise to learn how to respond in a healthy way rather than react in an emotional way. But it is NOT wisdom to just roll over and be a doormat and allow all of your boundaries to be trampled. Set one boundary VERY firmly: you will NOT be in the same vicinity with a person who is harming you (emotionally, mentally or physically) or your children. Walk away-->lock a door-->take a walk-->be gone for a couple hours-->be gone for a day-->be gone for a weekend-->be gone for a week...and just gradually keep going from step one to step two until the abuse either stops or until the two of you are separating. 

Make sense?


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## nekonamida

Hubby, you can have an unstable and psychotic relationship on your own time but it is completely unfair that you subject your kids to this. Unless you've sound proofed the whole house, they hear the fights. They hear her yelling. They hear you punching and throwing things. They witness ALL OF IT without even being in the same room. And now they're experiencing the negative consequences of YOUR choice to remain in this marriage.

Your children aren't happy. It's shocking to me that you don't see a problem with them being holed up in their rooms all day to avoid your wife. They're young enough that they should still be playing and having fun around the house and outside, especially your younger son. They should be spending quality time with you as a parent. But instead, they have to stay in their rooms and escape reality through books and the internet because you would rather be with a woman who treats you all like crap than be alone. How unfair is that? Why do they have to pay the price so that you can stay married?

You don't realize the damage you're doing to them and you don't realize how lucky you are that your ex-wife isn't dragging you to court to reduce your parenting time right this minute. When your wife talks badly of your ex and your kids hear it without you speaking up or shutting that down, that's parental alienation. Your daughter is old enough to have her own wants and needs taken into consideration while evaluating custody. All it takes is for your ex-wife to have her give an honest account of what it's like living at your house and your kids will be spending a lot less time with you. And honestly, that's what's best for them.

You have two options. You can keep going as you are, keep damaging your kids, and let them slowly fade out of your life in favor of your ex-wife or you can separate yourself from your current wife and start putting them first like you should have been all along. If you can't do it for yourself, do it for them.


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## Diana7

Sorry if I missed it, but have you taken your children with you or are they still living with the step mum?


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## hubbyintrubby

@Openminded I full agree that the children always know. As smart as my wife can be, I don't get how she truly believes they don't know her feelings about their mother. If forced to choose, as it seems like I'm getting closer and closer to everyday, hands down...kids without a doubt, no contest.
@Affaircare Every single day has been a step in the right direction on working on myself, thank you for that. I use that exact same thing...sides of the street. All I can do is keep my side of the street clean and I can feel good about myself and the direction I am taking myself. I was very proud of myself the way I carried myself during this last blow up, staying calm, staying present in the moment and not letting my level rise to the same as hers. 
@nekonamida My kids don't spend that much time in their rooms when I'm at home. That's generally when I am at work during the day and they are at our house. That's not to say they're not completely happy at my house though. They've heard plenty of fighting, plenty of yelling, plenty of anger...far more than they ever should have had to. Their mother knows things have been bad. My daughter has texted her mom during one of our fights saying she was scared. When I am home, I spend the majority of my attention on them, and we get a ton of quality time. Sadly the last time my wife talked about my ex-wife when my kids heard it was a big fight between her and I. Part of it WAS because I was fairly positive they could hear us and my wife wouldn't stop, quiet down, take a breath, etc. I am done trying to protect IN the home from this...it's time to protect them by taking them out of the home...with me.


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## hubbyintrubby

Diana7 said:


> Sorry if I missed it, but have you taken your children with you or are they still living with the step mum?


Their mother and I share 50/50 custody of them. I live with my wife, their step-mom and they are with us half the time. My ex-wife recently had her boyfriend move in them at her house.


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## Deejo

No, nobody is at all surprised. 

I'll shortcut this for you.

You are either prepared to address this issue by ending the relationship; or you aren't prepared to do anything at all.

Your 'patience and kindness' are utterly misplaced. And importantly ... nobody sees your actions in that light, aside from you.

There really is no more advice to give you.

There is no happy ending here ... other than you walking away. But none of that matters if you dont see it, and wont do it.

The singular piece of advice that you should take right now, is to act. Don't post, think, evaluate, analyze, seek counsel, or use magical thinking.

ACT.


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## Affaircare

@hubbyintrubby, 

When I was in an abusive marriage (which, by the way, did end in divorce), I was not ready to leave "all at once." It took me maybe a couple years to learn about abuse, to leave and come back...it was sort of like two steps forward, one step back until the day came that it was over. Even then, it wasn't like one horrible thing occurred that made me "angry enough to leave" but rather it was more like slowly added one straw at a time onto the camel's back until finally there just was a straw that broke it. It kept getting more and more clear to me that even when I did keep my side of the street clean, exH was not only not willing to keep HIS side clean--he also wouldn't even admit it needed cleaning! 

So if I were in your shoes, one thing I would do is just begin to think/plan. Come up with baby steps that you ARE willing and able to take, but keep taking them. For example, one thing that used to happen to me is that we'd argue and he would literally stand in the way and block me from being able to exit, so I'd be kind of trapped (and thus, forced to stay and continue the arguing). So one baby step I took was to go to every room in the house and look for the spot in that room that was an exit...and look for the spot where I could stand so I'd ALWAYS have a way to "get away." Now, it kind of killed me to have to think like that, but I also looked at each room for the spot in the room that was "least safe" ... where I would get stuck or be trapped and have no way of escape. (Shrug) It was a baby step for my own safety, so I took it. 

Another good baby step that I began to put together a safety plan. Now, again, I hated to think of it this way and hated to think it would (or had) escalated to this point, and yet, I did think it would be reasonable to at least think about safety...and then to begin to plan what I might need and where I might put some important documents and those kinds of things. Here is a list for you: https://affaircare.wordpress.com/articles/domestic-violence-safety-plan/


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## hubbyintrubby

It's funny that you mentioned the planning @Affaircare I do the same already. I've been blocked in, I've had my car damaged when trying to leave and blocked, I've been dared to physically move her when she's blocked me in. I've been there and done that. I've already left 3 times and have come back each time, and after not too long after that, end up regretting that I have. My IC has suggested I leave her also, as he says the kinds of fights we get into WILL get physical than they have and I WILL end up going to jail.

I do have support. I have somewhere to go at a moments notice, no matter what, that is a safe place. I feel like I've been taking those baby steps for far too long now.


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## hubbyintrubby

And I do agree with @Deejo

There is no happy ending here.


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## farsidejunky

hubbyintrubby said:


> And I do agree with @Deejo
> 
> 
> 
> There is no happy ending here.


There is never any guarantee of happiness while doing the right thing. 

However, doing the right thing always results in building self-respect and self-esteem...two things which you have acknowledged that you lack.

Chasing happiness at the expense of doing the right thing does exactly the opposite.

Start doing the right thing. Let the results take care of themselves.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## hubbyintrubby

farsidejunky said:


> There is never any guarantee of happiness while doing the right thing.
> 
> However, doing the right thing always results in building self-respect and self-esteem...two things which you have acknowledged that you lack.
> 
> Chasing happiness at the expense of doing the right thing does exactly the opposite.
> 
> Start doing the right thing. Let the results take care of themselves.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


It's kind of amazing that you mention that. The handful of times that I've left...I've had this rush or this immediate feeling of weight being lifted from me. And when I return, go back...I have this feeling of the weight being dumped back on. In those moments I don't see that, but looking back, it's happened each time.

At least your post made me think of that.


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## Francismae2019

Be careful involving your daughter in any of it. I have been a step mom to pre-teen girls that my h had custody of and they began by being very loyal to mom. Over 10 years they have flip flopped in their opinions of me depending not on me but on the feedback that got from their mom and on whether I let them get away with things. I am strict and protective and they hate that. I had horrible things sad to me and about me, none were true. Today I have a mother daughter relationship with one and a decent relationship with the other. Listen, but do not put nearly as much consideration into a 12 year olds prescription, rather compare to what you know for a fact about your wife and decide based on what YOU KNOW to be true.


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## Openminded

Looking ahead, and assuming you manage to get out and stay out, you need to stay away from women for awhile. You need some breathing room for you and your children before jumping into another relationship. A lot of breathing room.


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## hubbyintrubby

Openminded said:


> Looking ahead, and assuming you manage to get out and stay out, you need to stay away from women for awhile. You need some breathing room for you and your children before jumping into another relationship. A lot of breathing room.


This is no doubt the plan. Day 4 of the last 6 has been nothing but arguing behind closed doors. I am so sick of it and don't want this for my children. 

I am leaving her.


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## Openminded

She doesn't want a divorce so she will do whatever she's done the other times -- and possibly more -- to reel you back in. I hope this time you're strong enough not to go back. Your children need that.


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## hubbyintrubby

Openminded said:


> She doesn't want a divorce so she will do whatever she's done the other times -- and possibly more -- to reel you back in. I hope this time you're strong enough not to go back. Your children need that.


When I leave, I'm not coming back. The damage has been done and I will not accept there to be any more.


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## Elizabeth001

hubbyintrubby said:


> When I leave, I'm not coming back. The damage has been done and I will not accept there to be any more.




We all sure hope so. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hubbyintrubby

I think I need help you guys. I'm having such a hard time with this. My kids are scheduled to go to my home this morning after 9 and I don't want them there. I'm at work everyday this weekend and they are supposed to be at my house, in the house with my wife each of those days. My alternative is for them to be dropped off at my mom's house today as opposed to my house. My daughter told me on Wednesday when I dropped them off at their mom's house that she wanted to go to grandma and grandpa's house instead of our home when the weekend came. If they go to my mom's house, it is the beginning of the end and there is no going back. I guess I'm just looking for support in this.


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## Blondilocks

I don't understand the problem. Your wife doesn't want them there. The kids don't want to spend their weekend with her so what gives? What would you have done if you weren't married?


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## hubbyintrubby

Blondilocks said:


> I don't understand the problem. Your wife doesn't want them there. The kids don't want to spend their weekend with her so what gives? What would you have done if you weren't married?


I'd have left her long ago and not have put myself in this situation to begin with.


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## Blondilocks

hubbyintrubby said:


> I'd have left her long ago and not have put myself in this situation to begin with.


No, I meant if you didn't have a wife to babysit, what would you do. Take them to your mom's or hire a sitter?


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## hubbyintrubby

Blondilocks said:


> No, I meant if you didn't have a wife to babysit, what would you do. Take them to your mom's or hire a sitter?


Have them spend the day with my folks.


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## phillybeffandswiss

hubbyintrubby said:


> Looking for some varying viewpoints on a situation. I've been separated from my wife for about a week. Close to when I left last week, I had a discussion with my daughter who is 12. I asked her some question pertaining to opinion on leaving, her viewpoints on the home and her stepmom. A lot of what she had to say was negative and painted my wife in a bad light saying she did not like her because she is very rude when she speaks to people and my daughter feels as if my wife has changed me from the man who I was when she was younger..





hubbyintrubby said:


> As I'm sure many of you, if not all of you that read my post expected, I am back and feeling the exact same way as I had before. Yesterday, I found myself feeling verbally abused yet again by my wife of just over a year and a half. Aggressiveness, yelling, swearing, personal attacks, all the same as before. The big change was that I found myself not reacting to her as I had in the past with anger in return. I found myself quiet, patient, calm. I told her I would speak to her when her tone could match mine and when she started caring how she spoke to me. The most hurtful part of the way she was speaking to me was when, in the middle of her talking to me the way she was, she stopped and told me that she did not care how she was speaking to me, then continued. That to me shows absolute importance ntent on trying to hurt me with her words, with her tone, with the way she was speaking to me yet again. This all came about when I did not properly react and reply to a frustration she was having about me not transferring my paycheck into our shared account in a time she deemed appropriate.
> 
> Nearing the end of my rope.


See, your daughter is intuitive. Sure, she may have had an genda, but in your post your wife is rude and you call it abusive. There's a huge differnce between asking a child's opinion and using them as a buffer in marital problems.

It's time for you to go and you should only date for fun, not looking for a mother for your kids.


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## Openminded

You said a couple of days ago that you were leaving her so, yes, let the children go to their grandparents. What difference does it make if "it's the beginning of the end and there's no going back" since you are already supposed to be moving on and not worrying about what she thinks?


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## hubbyintrubby

My kids went to their grandma's for the day yesterday (thankfully). After they left, there was a blow out at my house that involved my wife's 17 year old son and her. In the end, he ended up packing EVERY SINGLE ONE of his belongings, packed it into his car and leaving for good, screaming how big of a c-word she is, how terrible she is, for hours on end...all while I was at work. Of course, the simple fact of my kids spending the day with their grandma pissed my wife off to no end, telling me how "f-ing pissed off" she was and how big of a pushover I am because I let my mom spend the day with their grandma, which in turned helped out my ex-wife so she could more easily get to work for the day, as she was supposed to pick them up at noon because of the holiday. 

It honestly never ends.


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## jlg07

VERY glad that you had your Mom watch them, and also glad they didn't see her meltdown with her son.
Are you close with her son? Do you know where he is going (is he going to live with his father)? I hope he stays safe.


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## hubbyintrubby

jlg07 said:


> VERY glad that you had your Mom watch them, and also glad they didn't see her meltdown with her son.
> Are you close with her son? Do you know where he is going (is he going to live with his father)? I hope he stays safe.


I am not close with that particular son, no. We tend to get along but I wouldn't say close. He causes more problems in the home than anything else so it might be a good thing he's gone for a bit. Yes, he went to live full-time with his father for now.


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## Openminded

You said you were leaving. When?


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## hubbyintrubby

Openminded said:


> You said you were leaving. When?


Tonight is the night.


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## Openminded

I hope that all goes well.


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## hubbyintrubby

Openminded said:


> I hope that all goes well.


Thanks...I am out of my mind nervous right now. Nauseous.


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## Marduk

hubbyintrubby said:


> Thanks...I am out of my mind nervous right now. Nauseous.



Good luck man.

Have an escape plan. 

Put your phone on record when you do it in case things go sideways. 

Have a place to go right after to decompress.


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## Openminded

I'm guessing she'll act the way she has before when you've left but it's always good to be prepared for the unexpected. After you leave she'll start trying to reel you back in again because it's worked before and she doesn't want a divorce. That's where you really have to be strong this time.


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## hubbyintrubby

I was not strong. I am still there and have not left yet. My wife is dealing with a high amount of stress brought on by her children's behavior lately. To the point where she is breaking down just about every day or every night over how they have been behaving. I know I'm not responsible for how she reacts to things, but this is absolutely the worst possible thing that could have happened when I wanted to put a plan in motion to leave the house. I am trying to be supportive, but at the end of the day, I know I still have one big damn foot out the door.


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## Rob_1

Of course you're not so strong.
Hopefully, your daughter is taking cues from you, and is learning to recognize from your weak behavior what to avoid on men when she comes of age and start dating. 
Think about that. It's this the image you want your daughter/children to have about you when they are adults, and understand it all?


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## hubbyintrubby

I wish I would never have come back. I have made everything so much worse.


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## Openminded

No surprise there. You took the easy way and now you're paying for it. Someday maybe you'll be strong enough to end it for good. If not, well, many are in the same unhappy situation if that makes you feel better.


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## Rob_1

So..are you preparing or doing anything at all to rectify your wishy-washy lame attempts to leave this relationship?

Remember you have children looking at you. They will remember your actions. This will impact how they would see you in the future.


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## hubbyintrubby

Rob_1 said:


> So..are you preparing or doing anything at all to rectify your wishy-washy lame attempts to leave this relationship?
> 
> Remember you have children looking at you. They will remember your actions. This will impact how they would see you in the future.


Starting a 3rd round of MC in a couple of weeks. Waiting so long because of the days I work.


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## BluesPower

hubbyintrubby said:


> Starting a 3rd round of MC in a couple of weeks. Waiting so long because of the days I work.


Oh, that will really help...


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## hubbyintrubby

Rob_1 said:


> So..are you preparing or doing anything at all to rectify your wishy-washy lame attempts to leave this relationship?
> 
> Remember you have children looking at you. They will remember your actions. This will impact how they would see you in the future.


Honestly just trying to be as agreeable as possible. Staying out of her way when I can. Smile and nod. Do what she says and what she thinks is best.


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## Openminded

Forget about MC. You should be doing IC to find out why you are so weak you can't get yourself or your children out of this situation.


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## Elizabeth001

Openminded said:


> Forget about MC. You should be doing IC to find out why you are so weak you can't get yourself or your children out of this situation.




X2!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## aquarius1

I saw someone else post this and it resonated with me. Others are right. You are in an abusive marriage. Just because you have behaved incorrectly does not excuse her behaviour. A counsellor will probably tell you that you have been fighting for your life, hence your reactions.


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## hubbyintrubby

aquarius1 said:


> I saw someone else post this and it resonated with me. Others are right. You are in an abusive marriage. Just because you have behaved incorrectly does not excuse her behaviour. A counsellor will probably tell you that you have been fighting for your life, hence your reactions.


That is beautiful. Thank you very much for sharing that.


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## BluesPower

hubbyintrubby said:


> That is beautiful. Thank you very much for sharing that.


Please, please get some kind of battered spouse counseling. 

Please man, you have to get out.

Be strong for your kids if not yourself...


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## 3Xnocharm

BluesPower said:


> Oh, that will really help...




That LITERALLY just came out of my mouth when I read it too!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hubbyintrubby

3Xnocharm said:


> That LITERALLY just came out of my mouth when I read it too!


It literally came out of my mouth too.


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## Deejo

Have you always been conflict avoidant?

I do recall you indicated that you have consistently been in IC, is that correct?

I know it seems very easy for folks to simply say, "Why don't you just stand up to her?" Are you aware of why you can't/won't?

I'm curious if you actually suffer consequences physically or mentally if/when, you try to do this?

I'm relating this to you as someone who grew up always trying to diffuse conflict, for no other reason than I thought that was the civil, mature thing to do.

Imagine my surprise when I discovered how much life actually IMPROVED, when I decided to embrace and engage in conflict, primarily by establishing strong boundaries for what I will and will not tolerate in behavior from spouses, lovers, family, colleagues ... anyone.

I seriously hope you figure it out man. As others have expressed. If not for yourself, at least for your kids.


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## hubbyintrubby

Deejo said:


> Have you always been conflict avoidant?
> 
> I do recall you indicated that you have consistently been in IC, is that correct?
> 
> I know it seems very easy for folks to simply say, "Why don't you just stand up to her?" Are you aware of why you can't/won't?
> 
> I'm curious if you actually suffer consequences physically or mentally if/when, you try to do this?
> 
> I'm relating this to you as someone who grew up always trying to diffuse conflict, for no other reason than I thought that was the civil, mature thing to do.
> 
> Imagine my surprise when I discovered how much life actually IMPROVED, when I decided to embrace and engage in conflict, primarily by establishing strong boundaries for what I will and will not tolerate in behavior from spouses, lovers, family, colleagues ... anyone.
> 
> I seriously hope you figure it out man. As others have expressed. If not for yourself, at least for your kids.


I've had a conflict avoidant personality for as long as I can remember, but never to the extent that I am in my current marriage. Every conflict we have seems to be a matter of life or death in my head because of the frequency in which they occur and the severity of the conflict when it does occur. I've never in my life been a party of conflict to the extent that I have been in my marriage.

I have been in and out of IC, but with no real fruit to bear from the ones that I have seen. I felt very strongly that I was getting somewhere with the last IC that I had been seeing quite consistently, but my wife did not want me to see him anymore as he was not a Christian and suggested separation and leaving her as his opinion. We did not dig deep enough to find why I am as avoidant in this relationship as I am, although I feel like I do know why I am.

I've never reacted well or healthily to anger directed my way, and I've never seen anger in my life like my wife displays when she gets angry. I'm talking fire and brimstone anger...all of this which she knows. To that end, I feel as if she weaponizes her anger knowing full well what it will do to me and where it will send me, and that she does use that as a form or sort of consequence for me upsetting her.


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## Tasorundo

Of course she does, because it works. She knows you will just bow down to her if she gets mad, so she will continue to use it to her advantage.

All part of the terribly healthy dynamic at play here.


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## Openminded

She's never going to stop. You know that.


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## Openminded

And ... I can tell you that the majority of women have zero respect (if not total contempt) for men who would allow the behavior that you're tolerating. There isn't enough appeasement in the world for her because the more you give in the harder she'll push.


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## hubbyintrubby

Openminded said:


> And ... I can tell you that the majority of women have zero respect (if not total contempt) for men who would allow the behavior that you're tolerating. There isn't enough appeasement in the world for her because the more you give in the harder she'll push.


A frustrating part of that is she tells me I should push back or fight back when I feel like what is happening is against my boundaries, which I've been doing more of lately. The only thing about that...when I do do that...she gets completely pissed off that I'm so defensive and that I'm making things worse and that I'm not protecting her feelings that I just get stuck in a hole of like...does it really matter what I do anymore? Anything I do is wrong, is seen as wrong and I get blasted for it being wrong. There is no win.


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## Marduk

Deejo said:


> Have you always been conflict avoidant?
> 
> I do recall you indicated that you have consistently been in IC, is that correct?
> 
> I know it seems very easy for folks to simply say, "Why don't you just stand up to her?" Are you aware of why you can't/won't?
> 
> I'm curious if you actually suffer consequences physically or mentally if/when, you try to do this?
> 
> I'm relating this to you as someone who grew up always trying to diffuse conflict, for no other reason than I thought that was the civil, mature thing to do.
> 
> Imagine my surprise when I discovered how much life actually IMPROVED, when I decided to embrace and engage in conflict, primarily by establishing strong boundaries for what I will and will not tolerate in behavior from spouses, lovers, family, colleagues ... anyone.
> 
> I seriously hope you figure it out man. As others have expressed. If not for yourself, at least for your kids.


I know I've posted this here before, but I'm going to do it again. Because it helped me a lot.

“There is something to be learned from a rainstorm. When meeting with a sudden shower, you try not to get wet and run quickly along the road. But doing such things as passing under the eaves of houses, you still get wet. When you are resolved from the beginning, you will not be perplexed, though you will still get the same soaking. This understanding extends to everything.”

― Tsunetomo Yamamoto, The Hagakure: A code to the way of samurai

hubby, you're going to get freaking rained on. It's unavoidable. It is going to happen. So stop trying to run from one place of "safety" to another. Because none of those places are safe, they are just temporary illusions of safety that won't get you anywhere.

She is going to get angry with you. This is unavoidable. Do not try to avoid it, because that attempt to avoid it is what she is exploiting to control you. The anger is coming either way. Fix that in your mind.

Then, fix in your mind that her anger is an illusion. It's not anger, it's an attempt to control you using an illusion that her anger can somehow harm you. It cannot.

This is what you need to understand.


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## Marduk

hubbyintrubby said:


> A frustrating part of that is she tells me I should push back or fight back when I feel like what is happening is against my boundaries, which I've been doing more of lately. The only thing about that...when I do do that...she gets completely pissed off that I'm so defensive and that I'm making things worse and that I'm not protecting her feelings that I just get stuck in a hole of like...does it really matter what I do anymore? Anything I do is wrong, is seen as wrong and I get blasted for it being wrong. There is no win.


There is no winning, because she gets to make the rules. Make your own rules instead.

I'll offer one that helped me: the first one to become emotional loses.


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## Deejo

I think it's really important that you understand what several people here have already indicated.

Early on, I think a number of posters, myself included, took the path of being critical to move you to action.

What is very clear in your subsequent posts, is that you are, and are actively being, traumatized. You are straight up, doing damage to your physical and emotional well-being, by trying walk on egg shells, and not rock the boat ... with a partner who is going to rock it regardless.

We will of course, continue to support you. And look, I'm no professional ... but I absolutely pretend to be one on the internet.

You need help and resources far beyond what this forum can provide you with.

What needs to happen here is painfully apparent to anyone reading your thread. But if you cannot find ways to take the steps and make your life better than the meat grinder you and your kids are in, the damage and cost will eventually outweigh your ability to overcome it.



hubbyintrubby said:


> I've had a conflict avoidant personality for as long as I can remember, but never to the extent that I am in my current marriage. Every conflict we have seems to be a matter of life or death in my head because of the frequency in which they occur and the severity of the conflict when it does occur. I've never in my life been a party of conflict to the extent that I have been in my marriage.
> 
> I have been in and out of IC, but with no real fruit to bear from the ones that I have seen. I felt very strongly that I was getting somewhere with the last IC that I had been seeing quite consistently, but my wife did not want me to see him anymore as he was not a Christian and suggested separation and leaving her as his opinion. We did not dig deep enough to find why I am as avoidant in this relationship as I am, although I feel like I do know why I am.
> 
> I've never reacted well or healthily to anger directed my way, and I've never seen anger in my life like my wife displays when she gets angry. I'm talking fire and brimstone anger...all of this which she knows. To that end, I feel as if she weaponizes her anger knowing full well what it will do to me and where it will send me, and that she does use that as a form or sort of consequence for me upsetting her.


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## Marduk

Deejo said:


> You need help and resources far beyond what this forum can provide you with.
> 
> What needs to happen here is painfully apparent to anyone reading your thread. But if you cannot find ways to take the steps and make your life better than the meat grinder you and your kids are in, the damage and cost will eventually outweigh your ability to overcome it.


Wholeheartedly agree.

That decision to get help is going to take the same intentionality as no longer playing by her rules or being governed by her temper. In fact, it's likely to trigger her temper. He needs to come to a place where he just makes one decision for himself, no matter how she responds to it.

He could pick up the phone and call someone to make an appointment. He could do that right now, right at this very moment. The only thing stopping him from doing that is himself - and the illusion of how she will respond to it.

Make the call, hubby.


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## BluesPower

hubbyintrubby said:


> I've had a conflict avoidant personality for as long as I can remember, but never to the extent that I am in my current marriage. Every conflict we have seems to be a matter of life or death in my head because of the frequency in which they occur and the severity of the conflict when it does occur. I've never in my life been a party of conflict to the extent that I have been in my marriage.
> 
> I have been in and out of IC, but with no real fruit to bear from the ones that I have seen. I felt very strongly that I was getting somewhere with the last IC that I had been seeing quite consistently, but my wife did not want me to see him anymore as he was not a Christian and suggested separation and leaving her as his opinion. We did not dig deep enough to find why I am as avoidant in this relationship as I am, although I feel like I do know why I am.
> 
> I've never reacted well or healthily to anger directed my way, and I've never seen anger in my life like my wife displays when she gets angry. I'm talking fire and brimstone anger...all of this which she knows. To that end, I feel as if she weaponizes her anger knowing full well what it will do to me and where it will send me, and that she does use that as a form or sort of consequence for me upsetting her.


I honestly have no Idea how you could think this way. 

Do you think that the IC could have been telling you EXACTLY WHAT everyone her has been telling you for however many years... 

You are being abused, it is that simple. If you want to say yourself, you have to act. 

I you ever want your children to be happy and have any type of role model, you have to act. 

You are sentencing them to your life in the future. They will live like you have demonstrated...

OMG, at least do something for them, whether they are yours or not, I cant remember...


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## Openminded

You need to always remember that there's no such thing as winning with someone like her. As long as you stay that's what your life will be like. 

The path your former IC was trying to get you on sounds like it was the right one. Go back.


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## hubbyintrubby

@Openminded You are right...if was going to end, it would have by now. To believe anything else would be foolish at this point.
@Marduk I'm going to print that brilliance and keep it close to me. That, for some reason, really strikes me. And yes, I remember you posting that before and it didn't really hit me like it did today. I'm sick a freaking tired of getting wet constantly. There is zero winning and I've been trying to throw emotional out the window with her for a while now. That only seems to make the beast appear faster.
@Deejo Mark Manson has written about questions he receives, such as....how can I leave my abusive spouse?...and how ridiculous of a question, in all reality, that really is. YOU JUST LEAVE. But when you're in the thick of it, it really is not all that simple. I wish it were. I am such a fool to have left and come back the amount of times I have. It really should be easy for me to pack up, grab the kids, walk out and never look back with how things have been. I'm going to call the IC I used to see and start seeing him again. It's a decision I'm going to make for me and I'm going to be upfront with my wife about it and accept whatever comes my way. 
@BluesPower Yes, 2 children are mine and she has 4 of her own. It scares the living s**t out of me, but I see so many of her bad characteristic in her own children that have grown up with the yelling, the screaming, the anger, the almost constant criticism that that alone should be checking me out. The IC was very clear and I apparently was too dumb to listen to what he has to say. He was clear that if he were in Vegas and a betting man, he would bet against us in every way he could. He also said, and was very clear about this as well, if we stay together, he is fairly certain someone (me) would be getting arrested at some point for domestic assault. It's come damn close too.


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## Marduk

@Marduk I'm going to print that brilliance and keep it close to me. That, for some reason, really strikes me. And yes, I remember you posting that before and it didn't really hit me like it did today. I'm sick a freaking tired of getting wet constantly. There is zero winning and I've been trying to throw emotional out the window with her for a while now. That only seems to make the beast appear faster.

Resolve that in the meantime, you are in fact going to get wet. It's unavoidable. But you can do it on your own terms while being unafraid of the storm or the discomfort of feeling wet. You will be OK.


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## Deejo

Take that step in understanding that you DO NOT need to explain every choice, or seek her approval and permission, as you go about your life. 

Make the appointment. But understand, you don't need to tell her you made the appointment.

She's never going to empower you. You're going to have to do that yourself. And frankly, the more you cut her out of your decision loops? The better decisions you'll be making.


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## hubbyintrubby

Deejo said:


> Take that step in understanding that you DO NOT need to explain every choice, or seek her approval and permission, as you go about your life.
> 
> Make the appointment. But understand, you don't need to tell her you made the appointment.
> 
> She's never going to empower you. You're going to have to do that yourself. And frankly, the more you cut her out of your decision loops? The better decisions you'll be making.


As much as I'd love to make that appointment and not tell her about it....you have no idea the amount of hell I'd take if that were to happen.


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## Tasorundo

hubbyintrubby said:


> As much as I'd love to make that appointment and not tell her about it....you have no idea the amount of hell I'd take if that were to happen.


She is going to make it hell anyway. Did you forget the line about the rain already?

At least get what doing something proactive and positive for the future of you and your children.


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## aquarius1

You must meet with someone who will help you plan an exit strategy. Connect with an abused spouse network. Formulate a plan.
Erase your history on your browser if you internet search for help.
Why you have to tell her that you are seeing this counsellor again is beyond me. You don't need her permission. Just do whats best for you. You feel it in your gut. I hear it in your posts. Start making an exit plan
Hubby if not for you, then for your kids. they are trapped in this nightmare and are looking at you to get them out


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## Marduk

hubbyintrubby said:


> As much as I'd love to make that appointment and not tell her about it....you have no idea the amount of hell I'd take if that were to happen.



Walking in the rain. You’re going to get wet.

And then you’re going to dry off and be fine. 

Don’t run from it. She doesn’t have to know, and if she finds out... walk through the rain.


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## 3Xnocharm

This marriage is such a horrible example for your kids. Your behavior has been as well. You need to do the work for them if you won’t do it for yourself. They need to see a dad who is strong and stands up for himself and for them. And you can do that by getting yourself out of this abuse. There are organizations that can help you make a plan and to follow it through. 

Until you are able to do this, please... if she lays a hand on you in anger, call the police immediately. She deserves consequences for her disgusting actions. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hubbyintrubby

Marduk said:


> Walking in the rain. You’re going to get wet.
> 
> And then you’re going to dry off and be fine.
> 
> Don’t run from it. She doesn’t have to know, and if she finds out... walk through the rain.


She would definitely find out. She's home most days all day long. She basically works from home and there's no way I'd be able to leave the house and NOT tell her where I'm going. That would be crazy talk.


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## Tasorundo

What you are saying is crazy talk man. What is your other choice? Sit around with your tail between your legs for the rest of you life? You are acting like a beaten dog, cowering in the corner hoping that maybe this time she will pet you, but always wary of the smack.

What kind of life is this? What kind of model is this for your children? Ultimately, you children are going to be prone to falling into the abuser or abused role, because of what they are witnessing. This is how they think relationships work, and who is to tell them different?


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## hubbyintrubby

3Xnocharm said:


> This marriage is such a horrible example for your kids. Your behavior has been as well. You need to do the work for them if you won’t do it for yourself. They need to see a dad who is strong and stands up for himself and for them. And you can do that by getting yourself out of this abuse. There are organizations that can help you make a plan and to follow it through.
> 
> Until you are able to do this, please... if she lays a hand on you in anger, call the police immediately. She deserves consequences for her disgusting actions.


That is a huge part of the problem. Me standing up for myself starts most of our fights. I try to approach lightly, I try to approach with love and kindness and calm and I can probably count the amount of times it's gone well on one hand. It's gotten to the point where I'm literally afraid to stand up for myself to my wife only because I know what is on the other side. It's also gotten to the point where I almost want her to try something physically with me, push me, hit me, slap me, spit on me...anything.


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## Tasorundo

hubbyintrubby said:


> That is a huge part of the problem. Me standing up for myself starts most of our fights. I try to approach lightly, I try to approach with love and kindness and calm and I can probably count the amount of times it's gone well on one hand. It's gotten to the point where I'm literally afraid to stand up for myself to my wife only because I know what is on the other side. It's also gotten to the point where I almost want her to try something physically with me, push me, hit me, slap me, spit on me...anything.


You standing up for yourself is hollow, because you back down on the ultimate test. She just keeps the hard line and eventually you submit.

I am sorry that you are here, but until you are willing to walk away, there is no hope for change. Even then, it is doubtful she will change as it will always be your fault.


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## hubbyintrubby

Tasorundo said:


> You standing up for yourself is hollow, because you back down on the ultimate test. She just keeps the hard line and eventually you submit.
> 
> I am sorry that you are here, but until you are willing to walk away, there is no hope for change. Even then, it is doubtful she will change as it will always be your fault.


Yeah, that is most definitely the truth. It seems no matte what I do, say, don't do, don't say...it's always the wrong thing. That goes for the kids as well, her own and mine. She generally does not gripe at MY children for what they do wrong in her eyes, she comes to me with them and shares those feelings with me. I think she shares 10 or 15 to 1 what people around her do wrong to what they actually do right. It's bone-crushing.


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## hubbyintrubby

Oh, and @3Xnocharm ...the saying you have a the bottom of your posts...I can't stop thinking about it.

"Life is too short to spend time with people who suck the happiness out of you."

It's like you're speaking directly to me with it.


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## 3Xnocharm

hubbyintrubby said:


> Oh, and @3Xnocharm ...the saying you have a the bottom of your posts...I can't stop thinking about it.
> 
> 
> 
> "Life is too short to spend time with people who suck the happiness out of you."
> 
> 
> 
> It's like you're speaking directly to me with it.




Good then it’s working as intended! 

Since standing up for yourself causes so many issues, I suggest you keep your mouth shut and make your escape plan without a word. Then just take your kids and leave. Enlist whatever help you need. To hell with her anger and wrath, once you get away you can file an order of protection. 



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## jlg07

hubbyintrubby said:


> Yeah, that is most definitely the truth. *It seems no matte what I do, say, don't do, don't say...it's always the wrong thing.* That goes for the kids as well, her own and mine. She generally does not gripe at MY children for what they do wrong in her eyes, she comes to me with them and shares those feelings with me. I think she shares 10 or 15 to 1 what people around her do wrong to what they actually do right. It's bone-crushing.


So if this is the case, then just stand up for yourself. If she starts yelling, just tell her that you are no longer going to listen to her heap abuse on you and you will be back when she can speak calmly about the subject. 
Then just walk out of the room/house. Do this EVERY TIME she goes off.

She is going to abuse you anyway. Make sure you always have a var and/or video cameras so that you CAN document it when she attacks you.


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