# Do finite things really make that much of difference?



## njpca (Jan 22, 2010)

During counseling session today with W, she made a comment about my hair had grown too long and that she thinks it looks bad and that I should cut it so I don't look so unkempt and disgusting to her.

I responded saying I don't understand what the problem is. It's been awhile since I had grown it out and it hadn't bothered me yet, plus it's not like I don't use gel or anything to keep it neat. I have a decent job with no big dress code so no one has a problem with it.

She said that I am not acting like a professional grownup and that since my mother had said something about it last time that my W was worried how we will be talked about in the family circle. She believes that I set a bad example in how I/us represent ourselves to others.

I then said to her that if you love me for whom I am, then it won't matter how my appearance is. The therapist then interjected saying that's how men think and that women can be more emotionally aware to situations like these. He basically said we should come to a compromise where I should get it cut but where I still feel it's at a comfortable length.

I just thought this was such a petty thing to argue about and didn't understand why it was such a big deal to her. Anybody have similar experiences? Am I being too thoughtless to my wife's feelings or is she just taking it a little over the edge?


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## brighterlight (Aug 13, 2009)

Man, is that really all that is bothering her? If that was all I had to do to make her happy, I would cut it. It really isn't worth your marriage. With that said, there has to be something more imprtant than your hair going on; my first clue is that you are both seeing a therapist - and I know it can't just be about your hair. If you care to post more info on what is going on maybe we can share some suggestions that may help you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## njpca (Jan 22, 2010)

No, there definitely more than that. You can search for my other threads to get greater details but we have been separated on and off for the last 7 months.

It just another one of those little things that seem to become much bigger than they need to be. I am not trying to show her up or anything, I'm just want to feel comfortable in my own skin and how I feel about myself personally. I think based off so many other things, she just sees this as another way that I am doing what I want and that I do not care of what her thoughts and needs are and she connects something like this with other things.


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## brighterlight (Aug 13, 2009)

Yeah, I get it. My stbx W is now seeing everything I am doing for myself as trying to irritate her because they are some of the things she had asked for before so she thinks I am doing them to spite her now. The reason I didn't do them before when she wanted them was because her approach to the way she said it was very rude and cruel so I just got defensive rather than comply. Now, I am doing those things for me on my own free will.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## njpca (Jan 22, 2010)

I don't think she has been rude per se but today it just seemed to really affect her more so. She mentioned in the past 3-4 weeks that it was getting really long and she said that by mentioning it awhile back that it showed she cared enough to say something.

I am trying to be amicable and work things out, I guess I just have been conflicted over the whole trying to appease vs. the "manning up" stuff that I have been reading about recently.

So do you think I am taking it too far then? Now I fear that since we argued about so thoroughly, that if I back down she won't respect or just think that it's another thing that didn't make me happy.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

We (well I, since I am the one that actually uses the kitchen) had a set of stainless nesting bowls, and so during the separation she decided she needed to take the large one. Well this has really aggravated me way more than it should - I would rather her take the whole set, or I'll even go buy her a stainless bowl if theats what she needs. It dawned on me that now every time I go to use one of those bowls I'll be remembering that the set is no longer whole... it seems like its analogous to all the bigger issues I know I'll have to face during this process. Sounds like your hair has some analogous reason for upsetting her so much.


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

Well, if you and your wife were still living together, I would have to agree with her. I think long hair on a male looks unprofessional in the work place. Even outside of the work place, it is a huge turn off to me. However, since you and your wife are separated, you can really do what you want. You guys have much bigger issues than hair length anyway. Priorities!


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

My H keeps his hair very short. He goes for lots of cuts, sometimes even when they aren't needed! He talks about the female barber he goes to. I met her and she's indeed super hot, smart, talented, good businesswoman, what's not to like! can't say as I blame H for his haircuts.

You should try one of those barbers. 
Your W might change her mind about how often you get your hair cut. 
It would be in the spirit of 'manning up' I think.

If someone told me to get my hair cut it would seem like it was a physical assault. Hair is a personal thing. I don't even cut my children's hair without consulting them, and when I take them to the stylist, I make sure that the children's concerns for their own hair are attended to by the stylist.

Maybe it's your eyebrows, nose hair and ear hair. I don't really give a rat's butt what my husband does for his hair, but I told the female barber when I met her that I really appreciated her attention to detail regarding the ear fuzz and the eyebrows. I did say something to my H once about his nose hair. I think once should be enough, and I was nice about it. Still, a nice girl doesn't even like to tell her guy that his ear hair and eyebrows and nose hair, neck hair, etc. needs attention in the grooming department. Those places don't get better with age, either.

You might be able to get away with longer hair on top if you trim up the other places mentioned and also get the longer hair styled/layered.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> Still, a nice girl doesn't even like to tell her guy that his ear hair and eyebrows and nose hair, neck hair, etc. needs attention in the grooming department.


Problem with me is my wife is an amazing esthitician and in the last year or so I have actually become like a regular paying client. She is really good too and I know I'm not going to find anyone that pays attention to detail and is as painless and gentle as her, for awhile there I thought we could use appointments to talk about our son, and other details that need to be discussed, but now it is always just too hard to be around her. So I am also sad that I've lost the best service in my entire city.


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## njpca (Jan 22, 2010)

Homemaker, I don't think it could the other hair features that would add to the effect. In the past, if they were she would be the one to take care of it. I think if she even had the ability, she would probably just ask to trim it for me herself.

When we were dating I actually went to one of those sport places once to get my hair cut and it was one of those things where the woman pandered to me and my W was so annoyed by that at the time. While I think that would work, they are more expensive and I don't the money to do that and do it often.

BTW, what age did you start letting your kids decide what style they want?

827, you have to come to the realization that there is little chance that she will come back and live here regularly until our lease is up. She cannot handle taking care of those children by herself and since we cannot afford a regular babysitter she insists that it's for the best. She even signed them up for classes and activities out there (her dad foots that bill too).

I thought about mentioning the whole, I wont cut until you come back thing as a "manning up" but at this point it does more damage than good for us. Creating more chaos really doesn't help as little things like this become issues.


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## cherokee96red (Apr 23, 2011)

brighterlight said:


> Yeah, I get it. My stbx W is now seeing everything I am doing for myself as trying to irritate her because they are some of the things she had asked for before so she thinks I am doing them to spite her now. The reason I didn't do them before when she wanted them was because her approach to the way she said it was very rude and cruel so I just got defensive rather than comply. Now, I am doing those things for me on my own free will.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That was exactly what I felt about my STBXH's approach to me. I always felt that he was attacking me about things like that. The defensive mode kicked in, I would shut down as a way to protect myself. I wanted to improve those things he pointed out. It just got hard to do so when I felt like I was doing it all alone, no support or encouragement from him on any positive gain in the right direction. Now I am accomplishing these improvements without anything from him. He hasn't seen the progress (dropped 2 sizes, almost 3) and he won't until our son's wedding in October. I have adopted the mantra "from devastated to devastating!"


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

njpca said:


> Homemaker, I don't think it could the other hair features that would add to the effect. In the past, if they were she would be the one to take care of it. I think if she even had the ability, she would probably just ask to trim it for me herself.
> 
> When we were dating I actually went to one of those sport places once to get my hair cut and it was one of those things where the woman pandered to me and my W was so annoyed by that at the time. While I think that would work, they are more expensive and I don't the money to do that and do it often.
> 
> ...


You sound like a rational guy. 
It's too bad it's not working out with the wife. 
All this fuss over hair!

We don't have those fancy man hair places here. 
Just barber shops some with female barbers or mixed-clientele salons. A woman can't even get her hair done in an all-female salon these days, how sad is that? In variably, there is always some guy sitting in the next chair who wants to voice his opinion about how my hair should look. Whereas I tell him I already have a husband and I also ignore his opinion and do what works for me (even though he's footing the bill). :rofl:

With my kids, they didn't have a whole lot of hair to begin with, so when they were old enough to talk and express an opinion is when I started listening to their requests and before that no cuts. My daughter begged and begged for pierced ears and even sat through getting one pierced and then the other quite stoically at age 4 after waiting a whole year to have it done. I would draw the line at say, permanent tattoos and also things like wanting her hair done a different color like pink streaks I told her wait until summer and we will try it then and see how it looks and get the kind that washes out & fades. My kids also pick out their own clothes and help decide on meals and their after-school activities, it's all about choices within what is acceptable. 

I am neutral about men's hair, so long as it is clean. What I really like are sideburns and a happening moustache  

I guess your wife has never heard the story of Samson. 
Or maybe she has.


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## njpca (Jan 22, 2010)

Actually it's funny because she pleads with me to maintain a beard. She thinks I look older and more distinguished with one and I look like a kid without one. So there may be a relationship with hair in the same way.

Homemaker, you seem to have a good balance in letting your children make the choices that you feel comfortable with. The way my wife is raising the children she is taking care of, I sometimes question how they will respond when they will eventually want to choose more independently. The way it seems now is that she encourages them to do things the way she feels is right (ex. she tells the stylist what to do with their hair). At least right now at their age, they are so attached to her that I think they will do whatever to please her. So it makes me wonder how hard it could be later in life when they they will want to be more independent (if that ever does actually happen).


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

Thanks.
I like my kids, and I want to enjoy who they are.
If I try to make them into something I had pre-conceived in my head, I would really mess things up.
Children are a gift, not a posession.
They come with their spirits already complete - as a parent I feel my job is to protect that, not to grow it, and to let it develop as best it can given the constraints of life in all of the combinations and situations that can happen.

My daughter has been wearing a Native American costume dress I made her for Halloween, and also a Native American dance skirt I made her for a talent show at school (she is 7, her and a classmate/friend choreographed and practiced their own dance routine - it was beautiful of course...), she wears these outfits to school, and the school has not once said a thing about it. I'm glad my kids go to a school that has the same philosophy as I do. Talent show night was so beautiful, to see natural talent being shared by the kids, when they are not trained little puppets it really shows. 

My older son is the same way as my younger two. He is really fun to be around, at 20 he is an adult. We had some good times with his growing up, and not really any bad memories between the two of us. I cut the apron strings with him around the winter holidays and it improved the relationship - it was time, he has a serious girlfriend  She is awesome. We all get along. They do not expect me to be perfect, I do not expect them to be toooooo reliable or responsible. I do not pry but I can be counted on, they do not pry but can be counted on. 

1 down, 2 to go, but no hurry...

My mother was not the way I am at all.
She waffled between neglecting me and if I managed to create anything or accomplish anything worthy then I was like a prized breeding mare to be showcased and brought up for profitable gain. Like showing an interest in music, suddenly my beat up jazz piano got replaced with some nasty sounding spinet console and I got a piano teacher that was way too expensive and she wanted me to play for her boyfriends and kept saying I was going to go to Juliard and be a concert pianist. What happened to tickling the ivories for fun? Now my neighbor told me when I delivered the paper to him on my route that some days in the summer when I was practicing he would deliberately move his work out to the patio and sit there in his back yard so that he could listen. He loved my playing and said scales or mistakes or the same thing over and over again, it was great company for his tedious work (financial analyst, pre-computer days...when you had to go through the paper to get the prices and market info). At night he would return the favor by playing his favorite albums so I could listen as I fell asleep. So there is the difference between encouragement and control. One builds self-esteem, the other one makes you cut ties as soon as you can.

My dad really rallied and tried to be there for me, but I think my mother got the best of him. I took heed of that and have avoided her after his suicide. After a lot of years most of the rest of our family has followed suit, some of whom are left with a lot of mental issues in adulthood, I can see why being raised by this crazy woman. I was the youngest and managed to be neglected the most, which absolutely, in my town with all of the nice encouraging adults, was the best thing she ever did as a parent. Like I said, it is better to leave well enough alone with kids. Don't mess with a good thing, if you can't encourage them, at least feed and clothe them as best you can and give them access to people who can encourage them. Physical and emotional control over a child is really not helpful, add few sides of neglect and abuse and you'll have some need of therapy. 

I hardly ever even have to raise my voice to my kids. If I am delayed in tucking them in they call for me because they want their kisses and good nights and I love you's. They are responsible even at their age for checking the weather and dressing for school and packing up their school things and remembering to be out the door for the bus on time, telling me when they leave the house. They love the responsibility. There have been some issues with fighting but those were resolved as my younger son needed thyroid medicine and now he has energy to rise to the challenge/demands of having a younger sister. He also had a tethered spinal cord and I had to ignore a lot of top-notch medical centers before getting him down to a world-renowned children's hospital for proper diagnosis and surgery which cured his incontinence and relieved a lot of pain he'd probably had since an infant and didn't realize it could be any different. My kids know absolutely that I will go the distance for them. I have put them before work, but did not suffer in that respect, as work was given to me when I needed it and it was quality work, but always flexible. I chose my kids but then people chose me because I showed I was responsible and caring, same as to their work as I was to my kids and myself. My first professional client used to let my older son roller blade through their corporate offices when I went for meetings.

I gave my H the same freedom and support as I gave to my kids, without expecting anything in return. Apparently he was thrashed fairly good by his father and his mother did not nurture him or stand up to his father, instead she went to church a lot. He did not have such good luck as I did in finding members of the community to encourage him. In our marriage he wasn't used to being treated nicely and instead saw my natural independence and resilience and freedom I gave him as evidence that I was having an affair, or so he says. So he was abusive and also turned to an ex girlfriend (married) who had a history of dumping him and cheating on him, over and over again, then professing her undying love for him and saying they were soul mates and forever friends. Honestly, I think the man is allergic to love and a nurturing environment. It seems to make him nervous, edgy and paranoid. 

This is getting distracting from your original post about hair.
I think your W is a control freak.
Here is why. 
Regardless of how she thinks your hair should be, she should have found a way to communicate this to you so that you would want to get your hair cut. A clever woman would have offered to trim it, and made a few mistakes that required a shorter cut, made an appt for you at her favorite salon, paid, apologized profusely, then taken you out for a beer to commiserate, followed by a BJ. After that she would tell you how sexy you looked with your hair short. That would have been that. Unless she offered you a trim 'down there' in which case, you should know better by this point and just tell her you'll take care of it yourself, pronto, and do so. :-]


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## njpca (Jan 22, 2010)

I have to say that you are very well put together for everything you have gone through (so sorry about your father). I think that my w and I are really far off for her to be thoughtful in that way. Don't get me wrong, I did enough to make it an uphill battle but I have tried so hard to be positive through this period and it is not easy with no support system other than here so I appreciate any encouraging words.

I wish my w had done a better job to separate herself from her mother like you did. I think that history has really affected her in how she behaves today. Her dad didn't help either letting her mom live with him after their divorce. But that's all another story that you would have to search out here.

Thanks anyway for taking a positive remarks


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

So is the situation now that your kids are not living near you?
Are you open to packing up and moving to where they are?
I think it would be a good thing to do if you are motivated.
Around where we live, courts can issue orders to keep the parent from leaving with the kids for any reason without mediation or a firm agreement. My kids like it where we are so here I am.

I've had to work very hard to overcome my family situation. 
It is difficult to be on your own from an early age.
Not all of the people who helped me out were stable.
I made a lot of mistakes, but am forgiving of myself.
There is intent, and even though people make fun of intent vs. action, and say intent isn't enough, if intent is pure, it is better than an action based on false premises. 

I was engaged to someone I really adored when I was younger, and never second-guessed much or examined the effects of my (short) past, and messed up becoming confused because of intense feelings, insecurity, and due to my history with my family (which was buried at that time). When I compare that relationship (which was revived a few times even after I broke off our engagement and stupidly married someone else...not my current H) which never involved any verbal abuse or abuse of any kind, with the one I have now, it makes me really sad. Now I'm married to someone who is just plain mean and intrusive and undermining. I can see that it is his upbringing that made him this way, but making an excuse for it or knowing how he ended up that way, doesn't change the way he is. It's a good thing he deployed and I found out he was lying to me about his married ex-gf (and probably a lot of other stuff too) or I would have ended up not realizing what a mess things were. One thing I've discovered is that therapy doesn't necessarily bring joy, it brings reality. 

Now I have to wait it out. Our interaction is mostly email and a few phone calls. I limit it because when we talk more he falls back into old habits and it makes me feel drained. I made a mistake giving him 100000000% and letting him be in charge. I didn't realize he had so many issues that were feeding into his behavior and actions. My guess is you did the same thing. It's like hiking when making a wrong turn, check the map, get your bearings, backtrack if possible, then check the scenario and see if you can continue. Sometimes have to wait for the weather to change. Then continue or call it a day/make alternate plans. 

Hair grows back, by the way (usually).


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## njpca (Jan 22, 2010)

They are not my children nor are they my wife's children, she just maintains legal guardianship of them.

My wife was going to school but now she wants to be a writer. She does not have enough time to pursue this career easily because she homeschools and takes care of them full time. She wanted to get a part time babysitter but I do not make enough to afford that. We currently live about an hour away from her dad but he can not come down enough to help her out.

While the difficulties in our relationship is what made her leave, she mainly doesn't want to come back because she needs the help from her dad. The long term plan is that we are supposed to get an apartment once our current lease is up and move back in together (if we can actually build our relationship back).

Again a lot of this situation stems because of the relationship she has had with her mother, so it has really complicated things. I did not expect it to play out like this when I married her nor can I come up with easy ways to fix it all.

If you search my threads, you can find more of my story if your curious.

Everyone makes mistakes. The important thing is that you learn from them and become a better and stronger person because of that. Clearly you have taken the steps to do that and I applaud you for that.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

Thanks for explaining and the encouragement too.

It sounds like your W spread herself thin and puts herself last.
You're right not to try to fix everything - very unrealistic.

Let her experiment a bit with solutions and find out logistical fixes made by other people are unstable for her. This haircut thing sounds like grasping for straws in terms of benefit. 

Homeschooling is not for everyone.
I hope if it doesn't work out for her and/or either of the kids, she will be able to say so without losing pride.


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## staircase (May 16, 2011)

My soon to be ex and I never made demands on the other's appearance. That's probably why we both turned into giant fatasses.

I've lost 45lbs. I'm sure he has gained another 10lbs. Go shovel in some more delivery food why don't you.


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## brighterlight (Aug 13, 2009)

staircase said:


> My soon to be ex and I never made demands on the other's appearance. That's probably why we both turned into giant fatasses.
> 
> I've lost 45lbs. I'm sure he has gained another 10lbs. Go shovel in some more delivery food why don't you.


Awww Geez! :rofl: You crack me up stair. Good for you for losing the weight. Keep it up!!!! While your doing the weight loss, you should spend the money and get him one year of free Domino's pizza and a one year all u can eat coupon for Burger King. Sign it, "Secret Admirer."


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## staircase (May 16, 2011)

HA, I don't even have to do that bright. I used to go to his place and find receipts for $45 worth of deliver food and no left overs. I was getting pretty worried because for being in his late 20s, he was very heavy and lethargic. Now he's the recliner's problem, not mine.


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