# Wife has anxiety - it morphs into anger



## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

My wife has every reason to be confident. She is attractive, smart, diligent, funny.

But she is constantly worried about "being judged" or others not liking her. To the extent that she says she sometimes feel naseous just thiking about having to talk to other moms at school drop off.

She often blows up at me over absolutely nothing and creates a fight. She seems to get angry easily.

This has been increasing greatly over the past year. Multiple times I've had to pump her up about how great she is to get her to go for a new job etc.

She seems worried about me not liking her. We've had ups and downs in the past that she worked through and I thought our relationship had become the strongest it has been. But now if seems like she is blowing up as a response to anxiety all the time.

She recently got to retire early (37 yo) because my company is doing very well. We have great kids, tons of friends, and life should be great.

I don't know how to deal with her anxiety and feel like it is doing severe damage to our marriage. She feels the same way and says her fears are causing her to act out and she can't control it.

I have no idea how to fix this. When she gets angry for no reason, it makes me feel like I am doing something wrong, but I am not. I feel like I can't ever make her happy, yet I know that I am good guy and providing a great life. I don't understand how anyone could be unhappy with the life we have.

One thing I know, I can't go on like this forever.

Any advice on how to help her?


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## Lostme (Nov 14, 2014)

She needs to get into therapy, I use to have anxiety issues a therapist and medication helped tons.


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## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

Lostme said:


> She needs to get into therapy, I use to have anxiety issues a therapist and medication helped tons.


What medication did you try? She has always been against taking medicine, even hard to get her to take an advil for a bad headache. 

Does a therapist prescibe anxiety meds or does she need to see pyschiatrist? Or is it just general family doctor?

I think she is also emabarrased to have to ask for such a thing - the whole fear of being judged think doesn't help here...


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## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

I think this is stemming from her relationship with her Mother.

Her mom was very worrisome, extremely pessimistic, a yeller, constantly finding the negative in everything.

The mother ran over her father for their entire relationship. He was completely submissive and fearful of her.

The entire family walked on egg shells to try to avoid the mom blowing up.

My wife hated it, but now she is doing the same thing! Saying that she is acting like her mother is a guarantee to create a huge fight, although it is completely true.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

I'd suggest a psychiatrist over an internist, simply because they are more familiar working with GAD (General Anxiety Disorder) and can determine the correct dosage. I've suffered with GAD since I was about 7 or 8. Yep, I was a VERY anxious child; not doubt due to having a mother who was emotionally unstable, to say the least.

I take clonazepam, which addresses the anxiety, and paroxetine (generic Paxil), which addresses both anxiety and depression.

It can be trial-and-error at the beginning, until the doctor finds the right med(s) and dosage(s). I, too, was hesitant to take medication, but when my anxiety/depression got bad enough that I could hardly function, I decided to give it a try. I'm glad I did.

I hope you can convince your wife to investigate her options. Keep us posted.


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## Lostme (Nov 14, 2014)

I had to try different ones to find what worked for me, I have a high tolerance to pills so I have to switch every so often.

My therapist prescribed mine, all thought when I first felt a little off like I wasn't myself my primary cared prescribed me some xanax until I could find a therapist.

I was draining my marriage too, and do I did not want to find myself in a divorce so I decided I had to do something. So I chose to get help for myself in order to save my marriage.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

re16 said:


> I think this is stemming from her relationship with her Mother.


RE, if that were true, you likely would have seen these behavioral problems occurring throughout your marriage. You say, however, that this problem suddenly got much worse over the past year. I therefore suggest that she consult with an endocrinologist to see if her hormone levels have been changing. Many women start perimenopause in their mid-thirties.


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

Without allot of info My guess.....

Everything she acts on is driven by fear

55


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## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

just got it 55 said:


> Without allot of info My guess.....
> 
> Everything she acts on is driven by fear
> 
> 55


Yes, absolutely correct.

This has been there our entire 15 year relationship, but it has recently become way worse. She used to have a sort of wall of not caring what other people thought. Now that she actually seems to care, here anxiety level has skyrocketed.


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

re16 said:


> I think this is stemming from her relationship with her Mother.
> 
> Her mom was very worrisome, extremely pessimistic, a yeller, constantly finding the negative in everything.
> 
> ...


OP how do you react to her fears and anxiety ?

Do you feed that beast?

55


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## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

just got it 55 said:


> OP how do you react to her fears and anxiety ?
> 
> Do you feed that beast?
> 
> 55


I am very calm, not an easy to rile person. Very logical. I usually say something to the effect of how her position doesn't make sense, it was not my intent to hurt her feelings etc....

Once she knows that she is being proven wrong, she will escalate argument to whatever length necessary to win. Usually involves completely bashing me, even though there really isn't anything to bash me about.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

re16 said:


> I am very calm, not an easy to rile person. Very logical. I usually say something to the effect of how her position doesn't make sense, it was not my intent to hurt her feelings etc....
> 
> Once she knows that she is being proven wrong, she will escalate argument to whatever length necessary to win. Usually involves completely bashing me, even though there really isn't anything to bash me about.


Maybe refrain from needing to prove her wrong? Try to understand her point of view instead?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

jld said:


> Maybe refrain from needing to prove her wrong? Try to understand her point of view instead?


This. 

When you tell her that her fears don't make sense, you are creating a divide between the two of you. You are essentially telling her that her fears, her fellings, are invalid.

Instead, just listen to her. Tell her that even if her worst fears were realized, that it would be okay and that you would be there to support her. You have already worked this a bit with pumping her up for a job.

The more she feels she can rely on you, the smaller her fears will likely be.

Then when her anxiety passes, urge her to get into IC.

Something that normally works with my wife when her anxiety is amped up, which is frequent, is this:

"What can I do right now to help you?"


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

jld said:


> Maybe refrain from needing to prove her wrong? Try to understand her point of view instead?


Yes she needs to come to that conclusion on her own and what Junkman said is exactly correct.

Do not accept her bad behavior Walk away until she is ready to speak rationally You are feeding the beast as I suspected.

55


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

just got it 55 said:


> Yes she needs to come to that conclusion on her own and what Junkman said is exactly correct.
> 
> Do not accept her bad behavior Walk away until she is ready to speak rationally You are feeding the beast as I suspected.
> 
> 55


She is getting angry as a result of his trying to prove her wrong. If instead of his doing that, he would take a listening and trying to understand approach, she would likely not get upset in the first place. 

No need to walk away. It will just make him look weak, like he can't handle her emotions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

jld said:


> She is getting angry as a result of his trying to prove her wrong. If instead of his doing that, he would take a listening and trying to understand approach, she would likely not get upset in the first place.
> 
> No need to walk away. It will just make him look weak, like he can't handle her emotions.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well JLD I agree with your first point not your second.

If he says to her "Sweetie Help me understand why you feel this way" and she continues to rant. Then it is time to walk away Because you never, I mean never, allow someone to verbally abuse you.You let her know that you understand that she is anxious and fearful but.......You are there to help and support.Not to get bashed.

You can always leave that door open to continue that conversation when she is ready to speak like an adult.

BTW I don't think what you suggest is what David D had in mind.

55


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

just got it 55 said:


> Well JLD I agree with your first point not your second.
> 
> If he says to her "Sweetie Help me understand why you feel this way" and she continues to rant. Then it is time to walk away Because you never, I mean never, allow someone to verbally abuse you.You let her know that you understand that she is anxious and fearful but.......You are there to help and support.Not to get bashed.
> 
> ...


David D? Who is that?

Again, I think OP's changing how he treats his wife will change how she responds to him. Walking away is likely to increase tension, not diffuse it. 

Respond to her with a genuine desire to see her point of view, OP. Look past the logic of the situation, and focus on her feelings, particularly how you may be triggering her anxiety. If you can calm her, she is more likely to be open to your logic.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

jld said:


> She is getting angry as a result of his trying to prove her wrong. If instead of his doing that, he would take a listening and trying to understand approach, she would likely not get upset in the first place.
> 
> *No need to walk away. It will just make him look weak, like he can't handle her emotions.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Total opposite. Standing there being berated makes him look castrated 
And weak, not walking away.

That being said I do agree with you that no one consistently likes to be "proven wrong" and OP you likely need to listen to her view more than tell her how wrong she is because that also can be distrespetful.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> Total opposite. Standing there being berated makes him look castrated
> And weak, not walking away.


I think walking away makes a man look weak. I think it _is_ weak.

If he were capable of soothing her, and getting to the root of her distress, she would feel his strength. See my signature.

Walking away, at least to me, just says, "You are too powerful for me."

Then again, that is probably helpful information for the woman to have, and to make her own decisions on.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

jld said:


> I think walking away makes a man look weak. I think it _is_ weak.
> 
> If he were capable of soothing her, and getting to the root of her distress, she would feel his strength. See my signature.
> 
> ...


That's just it ...to YOU. By now you realize most women do not think like YOU. Thread after thread here about men being the nice guy, doormat, just taking it and how women loose respect
For them. i saw this from my own experience with my x wife and how just "taking it" doesn't bring you respect its the fast track to the opposite
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> That's just it ...to YOU. By now you realize most women do not think like YOU. Thread after thread here about men being the nice guy, doormat, just taking it and how women loose respect
> For them. i saw this from my own experience with my x wife and how just "taking it" doesn't bring you respect its the fast track to the opposite


How could we know that? It is a wide world out there.

Taking time to focus on her and take her feelings seriously, really seeking to understand her, from a position of emotional strength and compassion, while not taking any personal offense, feels very different from coming from a position of passivity and emotional weakness, while potentially building up resentment, as in "taking it."


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

jld said:


> How could we know that? It is a wide world out there.
> 
> Taking time to focus on her and take her feelings seriously, really seeking to understand her, from a position of emotional strength and compassion, while not taking any personal offense, feels very different from coming from a position of passivity and emotional weakness, while potentially building up resentment, as in "taking it."


We know that from the relative constant threads here about nice guys, doormats and so on. Not just from men but from women. You could always start a poll I suppose but I suspect you already know what I'm saying. 

I do wonder though what would happen if you and your husband found yourself confronted with a woman who was having a "Tantrum" and yelling at you and calling you names. I guess you would respect him more for not saying anything to her but just standing there. Just trying to gauge the level of passive you expect him to be out of curiosity. If to personal you can disregard
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ButtPunch (Sep 17, 2014)

Don't accept her outbursts. 

That's what doormats do.

You will just get more of them.

Sounds like she needs therapy/meds for anxiety.

See a professional.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> We know that from the relative constant threads here about nice guys, doormats and so on. Not just from men but from women. You could always start a poll I suppose but I suspect you already know what I'm saying.


I find the walking away idea very shallow, and completely lacking in courage. I think it is what people do when they do not know what else to do, or do not have the emotional resources to do something more effective, I guess. 



> I do wonder though what would happen if you and your husband found yourself confronted with a woman who was having a "Tantrum" and yelling at you and calling you names. I guess you would respect him more for not saying anything to her but just standing there. Just trying to gauge the level of passive you expect him to be out of curiosity. If to personal you can disregard


Just standing there while his wife gets upset is not the same as engaging her, and really looking into why she is so distressed, and how he could soothe her before going into his logic with her. 

And remember, this is his wife we are talking about, not a random stranger on the street. It sounds like he wants to work things out with her.


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## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

just got it 55 said:


> Do not accept her bad behavior Walk away until she is ready to speak rationally You are feeding the beast as I suspected.
> 
> 55


I often choose to disengage when she comes up with some totally out of the blue angry remark directed at me. But her latest strategy has been to fully attack if I do that because "I am not talking to her".

Walking away has worked a couple of times though, but not recently.

The most recent time of walking away led to her physically pushing me and trying to stop me from walking out of the room... she put a scratch on me that was close to needing stitches. All because she didn't want me to walk away from an argument that she made up and started.

Her picking fights happens just about every weekend. The prospect of "waiting for her anxiety to subside" seems like it might take the rest of my life.


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## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

ButtPunch said:


> Don't accept her outbursts.
> 
> That's what doormats do.
> 
> You will just get more of them.


I don't accept her oubursts, that is why I have a problem. Whether I stay calm and address her directly when it happens, or allow her to cool off and then discuss it... we are constantly arguing.

ALL of these arguments are over issues that she made up that are non-issues (and she generally admits this).

I feel like I deserve to be happy and don't enjoy arguing all the time.

I need her to stop arguing with me for me to be happy. I am hoping that there is a way to make that happen. I've chosen to be happy in my life and she is impeding that currently.


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## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

jld said:


> She is getting angry as a result of his trying to prove her wrong. If instead of his doing that, he would take a listening and trying to understand approach, she would likely not get upset in the first place.
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is not the situation at all. I'm not trying to prove her wrong and then she gets angry.

I create an awesome fun day for the family. Then suddenly she gets very angry with me over something shockingly minor or that just didn't happen.

She gets upset in the first place, all the time, over nothing.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

re16 said:


> This is not the situation at all. I'm not trying to prove her wrong and then she gets angry.
> 
> I create an awesome fun day for the family. Then suddenly she gets very angry with me over something shockingly minor or that just didn't happen.
> 
> She gets upset in the first place, all the time, over nothing.


You said this, no?



re16 said:


> I am very calm, not an easy to rile person. Very logical. *I usually say something to the effect of how her position doesn't make sense, it was not my intent to hurt her feelings etc....
> 
> Once she knows that she is being proven wrong, she will escalate *argument to whatever length necessary to win. Usually involves completely bashing me, even though there really isn't anything to bash me about.


You can prevent that escalation by being calm and understanding.

Even when she gets upset, say on the fun day, you can learn communication techniques that can calm her. I suggest Active Listening.


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## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

The issue is not that she is fearful about something else and I say that she shouldn't be fearful.

The issue is that she directly attacks me and my behavior.

We've been to counseling three times now. Every time the counselor has completely agreed with me (different counselors also) and told her that she can't act like that.

Sometimes the counselors advice to her has been essentially verbatum of what I have been telling her, but all of a sudden a third party saying makes an impact on her.

Both her and her mother are very nice to everyone in their lives except for their immediate family. They are more accepting and nicer to complete strangers than their husbands; this is something I can't understand... I want to be the nicest to the people in my family.


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## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

JLD,

I really appreciate your commenting on this because I need to sort this out, but I don't think I'm correctly describing the situation to you based on your comments.

"You can prevent that escalation by being calm and understanding.

Even when she gets upset, say on the fun day, you can learn communication techniques that can calm her. I suggest Active Listening. "

The issue is that this happens all the time. If you know that essentially every weekend, you are going to attacked for nothing, overtime you will become frustrated.

Just getting to the point that I need to decide on how to deal with her (remain calm, be understanding, etc....), the problem has already occurred, a good day or weekend has been ruined. When this is norm, life is not fun or happy.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

jld said:


> I find the walking away idea very shallow, and completely lacking in courage. I think it is what people do when they do not know what else to do, or do not have the emotional resources to do something more effective, I guess.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You can get to the issue of why someone is really upset when they have had a chance to calm down. Arguing with an overly emotional person is as useful as arguing with a drunk. You aren't talking to the logical and reasonable part of the person at the point. Hence why we recommend waking away until calm prevails then talking about things and getting to the heart of the matter
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ButtPunch (Sep 17, 2014)

She has to help herself. 

You can be there to enable that change but i would take a hardline stance against any 
emotionally abusive behavior. 

You say she hasn't always been this way?


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## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

I guess what I am asking for her is not how to deal with her outbursts, but how to stop them from happening in the first place.

I already know that her outbursts and fight picking are not legitimate or based on anything in reality.

Both of us agree that this anger is stemming out of her general anxiety, I am just the outlet for it (the only outlet).

I don't want to be the outlet anymore.


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## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

ButtPunch said:


> She has to help herself.
> 
> You can be there to enable that change but i would take a hardline stance against any
> emotionally abusive behavior.
> ...


I agree that she needs to help herself, but don't know what to tell her make her take it seriously.

She has always had this underneath, and it has surfaced before, but in general she was a fairly happy person and nice most of the time.

Now that essentially all external stresses have been removed from her life and our life is very good, she seems to be constantly finding reasons to blow up.

I thought it would be the opposite, great low stress life should have meant that her outbursts & attacks would be minimal.


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## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

Wolf1974 said:


> Arguing with an overly emotional person is as useful as arguing with a drunk. You aren't talking to the logical and reasonable part of the person at the point.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Completely agree with this. Once she gets going, there is no winning, only escalation. It stops when I stop. If I keep going, she will continue to escalate to whatever it takes to win.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

re16 said:


> I often choose to disengage when she comes up with some totally out of the blue angry remark directed at me. But her latest strategy has been to fully attack if I do that because "I am not talking to her".
> 
> Walking away has worked a couple of times though, but not recently.
> 
> ...


The bolded is one reason my therapist does not recommend leaving the room. She says it tends to escalate tension rather than decrease it.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

re16 said:


> I guess what I am asking for her is not how to deal with her outbursts, but how to stop them from happening in the first place.
> 
> I already know that her outbursts and fight picking are not legitimate or based on anything in reality.
> 
> ...


Could you give an example of the outbursts, and what prompts them?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

re16 said:


> I agree that she needs to help herself, but don't know what to tell her make her take it seriously.
> 
> She has always had this underneath, and it has surfaced before, but in general she was a fairly happy person and nice most of the time.
> 
> ...


It could mean that it is now safe, financially speaking, for deeper issues to be coming out.

Is she in IC?


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## ButtPunch (Sep 17, 2014)

jld said:


> The bolded is one reason my therapist does not recommend leaving the room. She says it tends to escalate tension rather than decrease it.


 Come on....No therapist recommends accepting abuse.

What are you in therapy for? Does it apply to this situation?


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## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

jld said:


> The bolded is one reason my therapist does not recommend leaving the room. She says it tends to escalate tension rather than decrease it.


I don't think I should be afraid that I will be physically attacked for walking out of room.

Fear of abuse (not that I am scared) shouldn't even be on the table... which is why I think she has gone over the edge and is out of control.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

ButtPunch said:


> Come on....No therapist recommends accepting abuse.
> 
> What are you in therapy for? Does it apply to this situation?


She absolutely told me that. I am surprised the OP's therapists have not mentioned it.

I am not going right now. I was there to deal with anxiety over my son's cancer.

But I asked her other questions, too, particularly regarding what I read here on TAM. So much of the advice here just seemed unhealthy to me. Hearing her say it was unhealthy, too, or did not apply to every person, and explaining why, was helpful.

What she did recommend, OP, instead of leaving the room, is to speak in a soft, calming voice, and try to be as empathetic as possible. The idea is to calm the other person by being understanding. Your ability to be calm and understanding can be a life raft for a person who, in that moment, cannot be.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

re16 said:


> I don't think I should be afraid that I will be physically attacked for walking out of room.
> 
> Fear of abuse (not that I am scared) shouldn't even be on the table... which is why I think she has gone over the edge and is out of control.


Of course you should not be attacked. You know you have options, right?

You could leave her. Simply file.

You could call 911 if you feel threatened.

You could learn some calming techniques, like the ones I have mentioned, if you want to save the marriage.

Again, is she in IC? What does her therapist recommend?


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

re16 said:


> I don't think I should be afraid that I will be physically attacked for walking out of room.
> 
> Fear of abuse (not that I am scared) shouldn't even be on the table... which is why I think she has gone over the edge and is out of control.


Do you have any kind of plan at this point? Is divorce an option you're considering?


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

re16 said:


> I am very calm, not an easy to rile person. Very logical. I usually say something to the effect of how her position doesn't make sense, it was not my intent to hurt her feelings etc....
> 
> Once she knows that she is being proven wrong, she will escalate argument to whatever length necessary to win. Usually involves completely bashing me, even though there really isn't anything to bash me about.


So, you've learned something...she can't be proven wrong. Right/wrong and logic are not the domicile of a person with high fear and anxiety. Not while she's actively feeling fear or anxiety. You can't "logic" your way into stopping someone from punching you if you appear to be a threat. Don't try that again :laugh:



I've been reading everything I can on marriage, anxiety, fear and related topics because I'm struggling with something similar with my W.

Things I've learned:
1) If, in fact, the fear/anxiety is driven by messages from early childhood, meds will only dull the person - the anxiety will be there beneath the surface and the explosion that happens when they go off meds is huge. 

2) Strong fear can lead a person to be completely different than normal. I thought my wife was a pathological liar, but it turns out that she lied to me "because if I told you the truth, you might divorce me". Even though the truth was not really all that bad, such as "I hated being home alone when you were at work our first year married".

3) Fear/anxiety driven people usually have no self-esteem, they only have esteem garnered from outside. By the way, that old self-esteem movement, happily, has died, having been replaced by a concept currently called "self compassion"....check out YouTube videos by Kristen Neff or others with titles like "why self compassion is better than self esteem".

4) Because esteem for them usually comes from others, they can become people-pleasers of a most frightening type. Do a search for "people pleaser personality disorder". They don't do what they want, they don't even tell you what they want, because they are always trying to make sure others approve of them...without approval from others, they have no esteem. 

About the People Pleaser Disorder:
In my dating years, I met a couple of women who initiated the sexual phase of our relationship very early, like on the first or second date...and their "need" seemed constant, and they craved variety. Of the three, I stuck with two long enough for a more believable story to come out. They lived and died on the approval of others, and men like sex, therefore, they "put out" very early in a relationship, out of fear he might leave her if she didn't. All three indicated that they personally did not enjoy sex. 

From some of my personal counselors I've heard stories of anonymous past clients who would get onto hard drugs, go to concerts of bands they hated, and so on, just to please the person whose companionship they feared not having. It can be incredible and you feel as if they've lied to you the entire relationship.

All of the above is simply a possible scenario that's going on inside the person. Attachment disorders (fear/anxiety) usually begin in childhood, so your descriptions of her mother's behavior fit this theory.


*But - What can I/you do about it?* Well, we can't, exactly...the sufferer really needs a guide/counselor. As husband, we are supposed to be attempting to have an equal relationship with a spouse. It's nearly impossible to be an equal romantic partner AND a person's counselor - trust me, I did that with a few SOs and you end up with a daughter, not a lover.

However, being aware of our partner's fear/anxiety, we can do a few things to keep from becoming the problem.

Your/my goal is to come across as a *safe place to be.* For her, physically...and also for her emotions. Every time you or I do something that gets the fear going, is five more times she'll shut us out in other conversations.

People with high fear/anxiety struggle with trust, therefore they view all of their connections as highly insecure.

From Sue Johnson, her Youtube video entitled "Cracking the Love Code".


> What a person needs in a bond/secure attachment with another human, especially the primary romantic interest is this:
> 
> A.R.E.: Accessibility/Availability, Responsiveness and Engagement. Are you there for me? If I reach out to you, will you Respond? Will you engage with me? Related: have you understood me and my emotions well enough to properly engage with me?
> 
> You can look up "adult attachment" in Wikipedia and see that there is secure attachment, and three forms of insecure attachment. Most of us end up with a mix. Dr. Johnson does not propose that the insecure forms are incapable of leading to a lasting relationship...in fact, she says you don't really have to know what type you have, so long as you focus on the A.R.E.


In the case where one partner is riddled with fear and anxiety, the way to stabilize the relationship is for the other person (she hesitates to refer to the other person as "stronger" because she does not want to make it seem as if there's a power imbalance) to step up to the task, understand the attachment theory and make sure they are doing the A.R.E. for the anxious person.

This may mean that you spend a LOT more time saying things like, "I'm sorry to hear you're feeling bad about what someone said today at work. That must feel awful." Live in that moment with her, make her realize that you are not trivializing it. She may get comfortable enough for you to move on with any sort of discussion about "why have you decided that person is important enough to even care about their opinion?" but maybe not. Don't expect it for a long time.

For fear-riddled people, I've noted that Byron Katie's work seems to help...she is who I quote in my sig. Use the 'net to find her "little book" - it's a downloadable PDF. The description of what causes suffering is astounding and perfect. "It is not what happens in the outside world that causes me pain. It is what I think about it that causes pain." You can't teach this to your W, but you can print it out and sit down and read it, and if she asks, you say "I found this really helped me with some anger issues I've been having at work" or something similar.

So far, I've been able to get my W to at least engage with me more. But her fears are even bigger than before - because even though she likes the "new me" better than the "old me" who tried to use logic (which does not work with anxious people), I'm not the guy she met 20 years ago - so I'm a stranger and this is creating more fear. She will only see a counselor if I'm in the room because she trusts me more than any counselor - but with me in the room, there are conversations that can't happen between her and the counselor. So, I don't know if this is going to get much better for me.

In your case, time is on your side - your wife is two generations younger than mine and probably still views life as something she can improve.


Sorry for the length, but it's fairly deep stuff, although not hard to implement...and I'm really still on the learning curve of it.

I'll attempt to leave you with a few things to look into:

For methods of conversing while offering emotional support, check out *"12 tips for friends and family of those with anxiety"* by the Calm Clinic (web). Basically, don't bring up the fact that they have anxiety, and do everything you can to sense/hear their emotions and if the emotion is causing them pain, tell them somehow that you believe the pain and the feeling are real. Don't say "I know what it feels like" because nobody believes that and it's insulting to an anxious person. Don't pretend you can read their minds, make sure it's based on their words that you're responding. Just be there.

*Find and read Byron Katie's "Little Book"*. It will take you 15 minutes. Your W will benefit from it, but it is pretty "in your face", so I don't think you should present it to her - but be aware of it because it's the best summary of Cognitive Behavior Therapy I've ever read.

*To make sure you're not doing anything that could incite more fear*, look up John Gottman's "Four horsemen of the apocalypse". There are plenty of web references, it's about a page long and explains four things that can happen in heated arguments...recognize them, make sure you don't do them, and prepare to be calm and non-responsive when she does them to you - because she will.

*get and read* Sue Johnson's "Hold Me Tight: Seven Conversations". Unlike the previous items, this one is not quick...it's a multi-hundred page book.


You can't fix the anxiety on your own, but you can take a of steps to become "the guy" that she turns to when she is anxious, and that will go a long way towards her joining you in counseling, after you have gone yourself and told her how kind and gentle the counselor is.

Good Luck

PS
A GREAT explanation of "The Love Code", which is about why we need and what we need in romantic relationships, can be found on drsuejohnson website, in the article "Attachment and the Dance of Sex: Integrating Couple and Sex Therapy".


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## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

Here are a couple of examples:

We live in California so we have traffic on Fridays, if you want to go anywhere on a Friday after work, you essentially pick your poison with which freeway you want to take. You definitely want to look at the traffic before you pick your route as an accident on the route you pick might cost you multiple hours.

So we start on a trip, we have three options to head south. I pick the route seems to be best bet. She says "how about we take freeway b, would that be better?". I say, "yeah, it would be, but how would you get to it?", I know that the only route to get that freeway is always a notoriously horrible traffic jam.

She says "oh, we would have to crossover to on it freeway c, and that has really bad traffic, so I guess I'm stupid, you are such a jerk".

She then doesn't talk to me for essentially the entire weekend saying that I am being such a ****.

All I said was "how would you get to that freeway". We get into a huge fight on why I am such a jerk with me saying that I didn't do anything wrong.

Another example: we go to a burger place. She likes a grilled cheese with everything, our daughter likes grilled cheese plain. I order that correctly. She walks up while the cashier is reading back the order, and says to the cashier "no the 1st grilled cheese should be plain" and changes the order, I say "are you sure", she says "yes, I'm sure" in a tone like how dare you question me. Order comes out with two plain grilled cheese. She is pissed and says "how did you let me order that?", I say "I ordered it correctly and then you changed it and got upset when I asked if you were sure". I will point out that we're talking about a $3 grilled cheese sandwich here. She then says what a jerk I am and is absolutely irate with me. This goes on for about four days of being told I'm a jerk over the grilled cheese. Of course it escalates to her telling me all these things I am doing wrong in life and how she can't live like this, all over a $3 grilled cheese that she incorrectly ordered.

It is actually embarrassing to even write this stuff. She flies off the handle at her husband over the must insignificant things.


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## ButtPunch (Sep 17, 2014)

jld said:


> What she did recommend, OP, instead of leaving the room, is to speak in a soft, calming voice, and try to be as empathetic as possible. The idea is to calm the other person by being understanding. Your ability to be calm and understanding can be a life raft for a person who, in that moment, cannot be.


This could work depending on how irrational she is to help diffuse the situation. Problem is it doesn't deal with the root cause and you will be caught in an endless cycle. Wash Rinse Repeat

She needs professional help.


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## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

GTdad said:


> Do you have any kind of plan at this point? Is divorce an option you're considering?


I don't really have a plan. I don't want our relationship to end, but I want to be happy. I feel like I deserve to be happy.

Life is too short to not be happy is the way I look at it.


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## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

ButtPunch said:


> you will be caught in an endless cycle. Wash Rinse Repeat
> 
> She needs professional help.


Endless cycle is exactly what I am in.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

ButtPunch said:


> This could work depending on how irrational she is to help diffuse the situation. Problem is it doesn't deal with the root cause and you will be caught in an endless cycle. Wash Rinse Repeat
> 
> She needs professional help.


He could try it. Do you remember the woman on that DV thread a few weeks ago saying that part of the counseling for battered spouses focuses on not provoking anger in the more emotionally fragile spouse? If they want to stay together, each probably has to do some things they may not feel it fair to do.

I keep asking if OP's wife is in IC. It can be helpful to just about anyone, I think. And if she has a medical condition that is affecting her, she may need medication.


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

re16 said:


> I don't really have a plan. I don't want our relationship to end, but I want to be happy. I feel like I deserve to be happy.
> 
> Life is too short to not be happy is the way I look at it.


I might debate whether any of us "deserve" to be happy, but I'd sure agree that none of us deserve to be a punching bag, either.

Have you ever told her something along the lines of the following:

"Look. I'm pretty fed up with you getting angry over this kind of nonsense. I don't think that you're really angry over a grilled cheese sandwich (or whatever), and anytime you want to tell me what's really bothering you I'd be happy to sit down with you and discuss it. But until then I'm not putting up with your angry outbursts over nothing at all. If you think you may need professional help, I'll be besides you all the way. But I can't and won't continue this way." And then shut up.


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## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

DustyDog,

Thanks for that post... alot to take in. I think she does get her validation from others and the People Pleaser Disorder does sound a lot like her. I just want to be a person she wants to please.

All the advice on staying calm etc., is usually how I respond, but it is also very difficult when the person is directly attacking you and your behavior. It is like a personal assault.

"you are a jerk", "you are being such a dck".

A few years ago I started excercising a lot more, I wasn't in bad shape, but wanted to get in really good shape. I also had always wanted to play guitar and started doing that.

She seemed totally bothered by me doing this stuff (it didn't impact our life at home really, early AM workouts and maybe 15 mins of guitar per day) but she was totally put off that I was doing "all these things to improve myself". I thought this was the opposite reaction my spouse should have. I would have been saying good for you if she was doing that kind of stuff.

When she says she wants to go a friends house with some girlfriends for a wine everning, I say great, have fun (and I mean it). If I say I am going to grab a beer with a friend, she usually gets angry or bothered. Complete opposite reactions to same scenario.


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## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

jld said:


> I keep asking if OP's wife is in IC.


She has gone before, she hasn't been for a while. She said she was going to make an appointment.

She says that she acknowledges these situations are "her issue" and she needs to fix it.

Admitting to a counselor that she is the problem is hitting right where it hurts, because she is so concerned about being judged by others.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

re16 said:


> DustyDog,
> 
> Thanks for that post... alot to take in. I think she does get her validation from others and the People Pleaser Disorder does sound a lot like her. I just want to be a person she wants to please.
> 
> ...


Of course it's hard. That is how you grow, though, and develop a thicker skin. 



> A few years ago I started excercising a lot more, I wasn't in bad shape, but wanted to get in really good shape. I also had always wanted to play guitar and started doing that.
> 
> She seemed totally bothered by me doing this stuff (it didn't impact our life at home really, early AM workouts and maybe 15 mins of guitar per day) but she was totally put off that I was doing "all these things to improve myself". I thought this was the opposite reaction my spouse should have. I would have been saying good for you if she was doing that kind of stuff.
> 
> When she says she wants to go a friends house with some girlfriends for a wine everning, I say great, have fun (and I mean it). If I say I am going to grab a beer with a friend, she usually gets angry or bothered. Complete opposite reactions to same scenario.


Do you think she is nervous that now that you have a lot of money, you will leave her? Could that be part of her anxiety?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

re16 said:


> She has gone before, she hasn't been for a while. She said she was going to make an appointment.
> 
> She says that she acknowledges these situations are "her issue" and she needs to fix it.
> 
> Admitting to a counselor that she is the problem is hitting right where it hurts, because she is so concerned about being judged by others.


She sounds very insecure. If her mother was critical, that is probably indeed the root. Children learn what they live with, as the saying goes.

But your needing to prove her right, as in the post you made earlier, does not help, OP. And if you are one to get defensive, that will not help, either.

Try to focus on what you can do to help, okay? That will be a good example to her.


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## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

jld said:


> Of course it's hard. That is how you grow, though, and develop a thicker skin.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think she is nervous that now that you have a lot of money, you will leave her? Could that be part of her anxiety?


I have a very thick skin, I run a contracting firm that manages a bunch of subcontractors who are all run by alpha males.... 

I don't think I want to have a thick skin to comments from my wife. I want a partner that praises what I do, not that brings me down.


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## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

GTdad said:


> I might debate whether any of us "deserve" to be happy, but I'd sure agree that none of us deserve to be a punching bag, either.
> 
> Have you ever told her something along the lines of the following:
> 
> "Look. I'm pretty fed up with you getting angry over this kind of nonsense. I don't think that you're really angry over a grilled cheese sandwich (or whatever), and anytime you want to tell me what's really bothering you I'd be happy to sit down with you and discuss it. But until then I'm not putting up with your angry outbursts over nothing at all. If you think you may need professional help, I'll be besides you all the way. But I can't and won't continue this way." And then shut up.


That sounds very much like something I have said many times. Threatening with the I can't and won't continue this way is tough thing to say to her, that is basically threatening that I am done.

I think that I'm scared that if I start threatening that, that I'll feel the need to back it up.

That is not the outcome I want. But I also don't want to try to figure out how to work around a spouse that treats me poorly. I want her to stop treating me poorly is really the only solution I see to this.


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

re16 said:


> That sounds very much like something I have said many times. Threatening with the I can't and won't continue this way is tough thing to say to her, that is basically threatening that I am done.
> 
> I think that I'm scared that if I start threatening that, that I'll feel the need to back it up.


I absolutely agree that you have to be willing to back it up. If you've said stuff like this before to her, she's very very aware that you're nonetheless still there tolerating it.


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## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

GTdad said:


> I absolutely agree that you have to be willing to back it up. If you've said stuff like this before to her, she's very very aware that you're nonetheless still there tolerating it.


I've said things like that before, minus a direct threat that I am going to be done if she doesn't fix it.

Do you think directly threatening a spouse "fix x or I'm out" is a positive thing to do.

It seems like it would just add to her fear and make her think I want to leave.

Truth is that I want to fix the issue, not leave, but I know that it needs to get fixed.

I guess I'm realizing that I don't know how much I can take, but know that I'm close to the limit.


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

re16 said:


> I've said things like that before, minus a direct threat that I am going to be done if she doesn't fix it.
> 
> Do you think directly threatening a spouse "fix x or I'm out" is a positive thing to do.
> 
> ...


I don't know, it may be a matter of semantics and reasonable minds could differ, but imo "I can't and won't continue this way" falls short of being a direct threat, although it certainly gets the point across.

And it sounds like it may be the truth.


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

re16 said:


> I often choose to disengage when she comes up with some totally out of the blue angry remark directed at me. But her latest strategy has been to fully attack if I do that because "I am not talking to her".
> 
> Walking away has worked a couple of times though, but not recently.
> 
> ...


Now you are making her problem your problem

55


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

The best way to cure fear.....


Fail More Fear Less


55


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

re16 said:


> Here are a couple of examples:
> 
> We live in California so we have traffic on Fridays, if you want to go anywhere on a Friday after work, you essentially pick your poison with which freeway you want to take. You definitely want to look at the traffic before you pick your route as an accident on the route you pick might cost you multiple hours.
> 
> ...


You are married to a child. This is why stay and take it doesn't work cause you already are. I would change and say you shouldn't walk away you need to stand up for yourself in the moment and correct her tranturms...wow this resonates with me cause I used to be you.

With the trip incident I would have turned the car around and drove home the first time I was called a jerk end of story.

With the grilled cheese I would have pointed out she screwed that up not you. 

You need to be the bigger person and just keep stating " I don't belittle and call you names I expect you to talk to me in the same manner". If she doesn't stop then leave. But stand up for yourself and watch this behavior Change.

You have taught her to treat you this way as I once did with my X wife. You have to teach her now that no more is ok. It will be an uphill battle I'm afraid. She doesn't respect you anymore.


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

re16 said:


> Here are a couple of examples:
> 
> We live in California so we have traffic on Fridays, if you want to go anywhere on a Friday after work, you essentially pick your poison with which freeway you want to take. You definitely want to look at the traffic before you pick your route as an accident on the route you pick might cost you multiple hours.
> 
> ...


Very few people change as long as they remain in their controlled comfort zone.

Take a two week vacation ( with a bud or your son/s if you have one) and let her be.

To think of the alternatives of life.
for her and for you.

55


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

re16 said:


> Here are a couple of examples:
> 
> We live in California so we have traffic on Fridays, if you want to go anywhere on a Friday after work, you essentially pick your poison with which freeway you want to take. You definitely want to look at the traffic before you pick your route as an accident on the route you pick might cost you multiple hours.
> 
> ...


Instead of asking her, how about telling her straight out your concerns about any other route other than the one you have chosen?

A question that may not really be a question, more like a challenge to her to prove she is smarter than you, can be seen as insulting to some people, especially insecure people like your wife.



> She then doesn't talk to me for essentially the entire weekend saying that I am being such a ****.
> 
> All I said was "how would you get to that freeway". We get into a huge fight on why I am such a jerk with me saying that I didn't do anything wrong.


How about not letting her emotions get to you? You can learn to feel good in yourself and not become overwhelmed by her anxiety. Your therapist should be able to teach you how to do this. 



> Another example: we go to a burger place. She likes a grilled cheese with everything, our daughter likes grilled cheese plain. I order that correctly. She walks up while the cashier is reading back the order, and says to the cashier "no the 1st grilled cheese should be plain" and changes the order, I say "are you sure", she says "yes, I'm sure" in a tone like how dare you question me. Order comes out with two plain grilled cheese. She is pissed and says "how did you let me order that?", I say "I ordered it correctly and then you changed it and got upset when I asked if you were sure". I will point out that we're talking about a $3 grilled cheese sandwich here. She then says what a jerk I am and is absolutely irate with me. This goes on for about four days of being told I'm a jerk over the grilled cheese. Of course it escalates to her telling me all these things I am doing wrong in life and how she can't live like this, all over a $3 grilled cheese that she incorrectly ordered.
> 
> It is actually embarrassing to even write this stuff. She flies off the handle at her husband over the must insignificant things.


You could have her give the order next time. You could both write it down. There are probably other ways to avoid this situation. Be creative.

OP, I think what you are calling your wife's problem is revealing weaknesses in yourself, too. You could grow from all this as well, regardless of what happens with you and your wife.

That is the tack I would take, anyway, if I were in a similar situation. You can learn to not take her emotions personally, and how to troubleshoot potential problems.

It would also be very good for both of you to get counseling, of course.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

ButtPunch said:


> Come on....No therapist recommends accepting abuse.


Trust me, there are therapists like this and people tend to go where their beliefs are in sync.

There are therapists, some on this board, who do not believe in verbal abuse of men or men being abused.


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## ButtPunch (Sep 17, 2014)

just got it 55 said:


> Very few people change as long as they remain in their controlled comfort zone.
> 
> Take a two week vacation ( with a bud or your son/s if you have one) and let her be.
> 
> ...


QFT


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## ButtPunch (Sep 17, 2014)

jld said:


> Instead of asking her, how about telling her straight out your concerns about any other route other than the one you have chosen?
> 
> A question that may not really be a question, more like a challenge to her to prove she is smarter than you, can be seen as insulting to some people, especially insecure people like your wife.
> 
> ...


Still just covering the gunshot wound with a bandaid.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

ButtPunch said:


> Still just covering the gunshot wound with a bandaid.


How so?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ButtPunch (Sep 17, 2014)

DustyDog said:


> So, you've learned something...she can't be proven wrong. Right/wrong and logic are not the domicile of a person with high fear and anxiety. Not while she's actively feeling fear or anxiety. You can't "logic" your way into stopping someone from punching you if you appear to be a threat. Don't try that again :laugh:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Now this looks like well thought out researched advice.


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