# Passive-Aggressive Spouse?



## QuestioningMyMarriage (Apr 3, 2013)

I don't even know what I'm asking here. Maybe to commiserate? I feel like I've been going crazy for years. Last week at our first MC session, the counsellor said that H is passive-aggressive to me, and as a result I get angry. For years he's told me that I have anger issues. One quote I read this week, when talking about PA husbands: "...he blames her for creating the problem and keeps her focused on her anger rather than his own ineptitude..." This sentence could probably sum up my entire marriage - or at least it could be his mission statement.

We are booked for another counselling session but I've been reading about PA spouses and the stories I've been reading are pretty grim. We also have a child that I need to consider. If I stay in an obviously unhealthy PA relationship, what will my child learn from this? Will they become a PA or marry one?

We have unfinished projects in the house that have been unfinished for YEARS. I painted our bedroom 6+ years ago and asked him to put baseboards in. This is just one example. I bring up his lack of desire for me and lack of initiating sex and he tells me he doesn't realize we don't have sex very often and he'll initiate more. He does for awhile then it's back to nothing.

We don't have an emotional connection and I thought the problem was a lack of sex, but now I see that lack of sex is just a symptom of his passive-aggressiveness. He doesn't remember my birthday because he "forgets." Without going into details about his occupation, but he does work although he's an underachiever. He rarely argues. He avoids conflict at all costs. I'm the angry one, the spouse who makes the decisions because that's his way to avoid any conflict and avoid being wrong. Having a rational discussion is impossible. He gets up and leaves the room mid-discussion. He just leaves or clams up. He has no friends, except some from his school days, and they rarely call him. I've encouraged him to go out with them, I've encouraged him to go back to a sport that he used to play. He has no friends now and no interests.

If you have a PA spouse, are you staying for the kids? Are you finding it worse for them? Or did you leave? I can handle most anything but I'm really scared for my child to be influenced by him. I feel like there's a degree of control (hahaha) if I stay, I can sort of see what's happening in day-to-day life. If I left, he'd either have 50/50 custody or maybe weekends. He could poison or influence our child with his PA ways. I'm so scared for our child's future.

The more I read about PA spouses, the more depressing it gets. As I've been reading, I've been laughing, nodding my head saying, "yes!" and I can relate to so much. For years I felt like there was something missing but I couldn't quite put my finger on it. Like I knew he wasn't opening up to me but I couldn't figure out why. I felt like he was hiding something.

I also need to examine my own motives and actions. Why did I look the other way for so long? If you ask ANYONE they will say what a great guy he is. Part of the crazy-making is that I believed he is a great guy but then I try to have a conversation and it's like nailing jello to the wall. But of course this only happens in private. I'm living with a roommate and I've just discovered what is really going on. In my mind, I'm flipping back and forth between leaving him and telling myself that I'm crazy and that he is a great guy and he's just quiet avoids confilct and we can work this all out with marriage counselling.

Wow, thanks for reading. I'm overwhelmed and relieved with all that I've learned in the last week.


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## pink_lady (Dec 1, 2012)

If you haven't read 'Living With the Passive-Aggressive Man', do so soon. It helps.

I realized the man I'd married was acting exactly like my ex-boyfriend, and finally did the research and was able to put a name to the disorder they both have 'P-A negativisitic personality'.

My father also has many P-A traits.

The fact that your H is going to therapy is encouraging- IF he admits he has a personality issue and wants to change. Otherwise he'll just try to run P-A games on the therapist.

My H refused to acknowledge anything or consider therapy and I moved out. I just was not getting anything good out of the relationship and knew I never would.

That's a P-A's whole method of operation- their whole purpose is to make sure you can't get what you want or need.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

I think a lot of people have passive-aggressive moments, some more than others, but when it's a deep part of their personality and how they relate to the world, it can be extremely frustrating to deal with them. 

On the one hand, it means a lot of freedom to do things the way you want, without consulting him. But it also means feeling completely alone in the relationship - no support, no teamwork. 

I left.


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Hi Questioning - 

Sorry you find yourself in this situation, but it is great that you have gained so much insight into what is going on in your marriage, and also good news that you are both at least willing to try MC. I married a passive aggressive man and was fathered by one, too. I never knew the first thing about PA until I started learning about it while my marriage came undone over the past year. Gong forward, here's another one I'll be reading: "How to Spot a Passive Aggressive Partner (The Complete Guide to Passive Aggression)."

Was you father, by any chance, PA? Good luck in counselling and good for you keeping your child's bests interesrs at the forefront.

Cheers,- A12


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## QuestioningMyMarriage (Apr 3, 2013)

Thanks pink_lady, I looked for the book at my library but they don't have it so I'll order from the book store. I don't know if he'll change. Nothing has changed since our counselling appointment. We are civil, but there is nothing else. No conversations, no discussions, no nothing. I have started to disengage myself and 'not care' because if I care then I will be dancing the game of codependent.

KathyBatesel, this is so true, I feel like there is no teamwork, no partnership, no nothing. I feel very alone and none of my needs are getting met. No emotional connection, no sex, nothing.

Awakening2012 thanks for tip about another book to read. I am so angry with myself for not seeing through his passive-aggressive behaviour before now. I'm scared sh!tless that that I'll end up with antoher man like him. Until this week I thought that my MIL was PA but was still nice enough. Now I see that this is probably where my H learned to be the way he is. I can look back at my realtionship with my MIL and I knew she was PA but it's all much clearer now and more obvious.

Both my parents were alcholics which makes sense why I have codependent behaviours but I thought I worked through a lot of that in my 20s...guess not! My father was sober for a couple of decades before he died. He wasn't perfect but he wasn't passive aggressive. Now my mother, on the other hand....I will have to think about that some. I can think of a few examples where she said one thing and did another (or passively did nothing at all) and I was deeply hurt. Lots to think about for sure. I also recognize I should go to counselling on my own.

Did any of you have children? Did that play into your decision to leave?


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

QuestioningMyMarriage said:


> Thanks pink_lady, I looked for the book at my library but they don't have it so I'll order from the book store. I don't know if he'll change. Nothing has changed since our counselling appointment. We are civil, but there is nothing else. No conversations, no discussions, no nothing. I have started to disengage myself and 'not care' because if I care then I will be dancing the game of codependent.
> 
> KathyBatesel, this is so true, I feel like there is no teamwork, no partnership, no nothing. I feel very alone and none of my needs are getting met. No emotional connection, no sex, nothing.
> 
> ...


I had children, but they weren't his and they were pretty much out of the house by that time, so it didn't really play a role in my decision other than that I did NOT have to worry about it.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

My H is PA, but he's getting help with it. 

There are some things you can do, but it's a lot of work on your part , and you have to take full responsibility. It's a job, all in itself.

The tips I can offer would be:
Consider that they think of themselves as puppets.
They react. That's all. It's how they avoid blame. If they don't do anything, they can't be blamed for it. It's always the fault of someone else. And fault deserves punishment, right?

-Listen to actions, not words.

-Let them take responsibility for their own actions. Always. 
This means NOT picking up the pieces. Not nagging, demanding, or using threats. Let the bills be unpaid. Let the mistakes happen.


-You must have solid boundaries, and consequences. 
Things like being willing to say out loud "I'm not responsible for your choices" and walking away. Make your needs known, and let it be. If they don't follow through, then you do what you must. No freebies.

This stuff is extremely difficult for a CD. Because it's the opposite of what your nature is.... fix things. Make it better. 


I've had good results with boundaries. The PA stuff has lessened a lot. And I'm much happier, because I'm showing myself respect and just not taking it anymore. A lot of work.


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## QuestioningMyMarriage (Apr 3, 2013)

Thanks, deejov, those are some great practical things to say. Just yesterday I told him I started a donation bag of clothing that no longer fits and I said something like, "your choice if you decide to add some of your old clothes to it. Before I would have asked him to add things to it.

I think calling him a puppet is so true. When I think about it, there's no passion (towards me or for a cause or a job, etc), no emotion or love for me, no desire for me, no desire to do things, no desire to _live_. Like a shell, or one of those scary robots in movies that look human on the outside. I am having a hard time wraping my brain around all this but when I try to look at things objectively, I see how he is. I almost feel sorry for him.

I don't know if I'm codependent but I'm assuming that I am. In the last few days I've read a lot about PA spouses. I've read that PAs are usually men, and that the wife's role is codependence. I had some grief counselling in my early 20s and I know there was stuff about my alcoholic parents that came up but I don't remember how much or how specific. But now that I'm aware of H's actions, I can choose how to react (or not react) to him.

I'm going to step back from him and observe how he interacts with me and our child. If I leave him we would have to sell the house and this would be a huge impact on our child. So I need to be certain that leaving is better than staying.

I'm mad at myself that I didn't see this coming but looking back at our relationship, I can see the red flags now. Only at the time I didn't kwow they were red flags.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

QMM, maybe some one mentioned it yet, but the book "No More Mr. Nice Guy" describes among others the passive-agressive guy, who is not so nice after all when he gets frustrated and gets his needs not met.

I think it is applicable to him. He and you might read up on this, it has a fresh approach of the problem.

But you may have to shock him out of lethargy first. When he sees the problem (which he may do already), sees the consequences (you leave) AND sees what could be (him repair himself/get repaired) and have a real life, with good sex and all.

THEN he might want to try.

I guess he has given up hope, and you have tried a long time, and are tired now of this.

You both need a new perspective.

Yours can be that you do this last effort, and if it does not work you can honourful leave him and start a better future for yourself.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

My sister had to divorce a PA man and they have two kids. You will definitely face some challenges. Yes, her now ex-husband pulls his PA crap on their kids now since she isn't around to take it from him anymore. And of course he makes sure to make derogatory PA statements to the kids about her literally every time he sees them.

He tries to act like he is just curious about their lives...but he is really digging them for info about my sister.

The kids are old enough to see through it now. They hate it but they are aware that they can't stop their dad from doing this. 
But having said that...divorce ALWAYS sucks and shared custody usually also sucks. Even when people are at their healthiest, divorce causes a crisis state and people do things they normally would never even consider. Kids do take on the burdens of their divorced parents, whether they are PA or not.

So you should definitely be prepared and aware that divorce sucks for kids and parents alike. No one gets off easy.

That doesn't mean you should or shouldn't consider divorce, though. You have to walk your path. Yes, it will be rocky and dark no matter which way you go. But it is at least, YOUR path. So walk it with your head up.


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## Fledgling (Feb 3, 2013)

QMM, your husband and mine could be clones. I understand the crazy making the charming, underachieving, socially distant men like ours can inflict. Aren't there times when you wonder to yourself why, if he's so charming and likable, he doesn't have any friends? 

Also I imagine that you have your own share of negative input in this marriage that does not simply stem from being co-dependendent. Your husband is such a force of nature that you get swept up in him and don't see your own passive aggressive tendencies. And I'm sure you have them. We all do. It's the level to which we take them that defines us as PA individuals. Also the title co-dependent has such a negative connotation. Those of us who fall into this category berate ourselves for caring too much (and then we feel like we have to be the opposite of who we really are and not care at all which is a PA trait, btw) But why shouldn't we care? Isn't this what we married our spouses for? Stop beating yourself up for _caring_. 

While I understand wanting to protect your child you need to be honest with yourself. Your child is going to have to develop his own relationship with his father whether you are in this relationship or not. Your child is also going to deal with many different types of people in the world and unless you think there is absolutely no hope for your marriage the main message you are going to send to your child is that when the going gets tough you leave. So it's a balance. When are allowing your child a life of misery and when are you role modeling true problems solving skills?

You need to make the decision whether or not you want this marriage to work. There's no harm in walking away now (even though I think most marriages can be saved) but don't give it another year (with no plan) and then call it quits because then you'll have a whole additional year of misery to overcome. TAM has alot of great advice but I caution you against a one size fits all "plan" or forcing your husband into any preconcieved molds or scripts. 

Can you give us any examples of a typical day in your house?


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## QuestioningMyMarriage (Apr 3, 2013)

Fledgling said:


> Your child is also going to deal with many different types of people in the world and unless you think there is absolutely no hope for your marriage the main message you are going to send to your child is that when the going gets tough you leave. So it's a balance. *When are allowing your child a life of misery and when are you role modeling true problems solving skills?
> *
> 
> You need to make the decision whether or not you want this marriage to work. There's no harm in walking away now (even though I think most marriages can be saved) but don't give it another year (with no plan) and then call it quits because then you'll have a whole additional year of misery to overcome. TAM has alot of great advice but I caution you against a one size fits all "plan" or forcing your husband into any preconcieved molds or scripts.
> ...


The sentence that I bolded is exactly what I'm trying to figure out. We have gone to two marriage counselling sessions and both times I think I've learned some new things about both of us, and I've been able to apply what has been asked of me. For example, he gets to make 50% of the decisions. Well I've been making them for so long because of course he's not making them so he can't be accused of making a wrong or a bad decison! So I'm really making an effort here but I'm not sure how committed he is and what kind of effort he's making.

Our MC gave him some homework. She wrote down some positive affirmations that he is to read out loud to himself in front of a mirror. He did that once and the following 3 days he has not. The one day he did do the affirmations was the day after our MC appointment, and after he did the affirmations, he looked me in the eyes and had a conversation. I didn't realize how "shifty" eyed he had become until he actually looked me in the eyes. How sad and pathetic is that? I remember even calling him on the eye contact before, asking him if he was avoiding eye contact because he was lying to me. Well turns out he's just been incapable of looking me in the eyes because he's PA.

I do think he wasn't always like this. The MC asked him if it's possible that he was angry at his mother and that anger shifted to me. He said it's possible. He once told me that she would ignore him for days. For days! She's also PA but it got worse around our wedding, and even outright worse after our child was born. I've decided to limit my contact with his parents for now but he is welcome to bring our child to visit.

A typical day would be him going to work, coming home, one of us would make dinner and we eat it with our child, child bathed and put to bed, then him zoning in front of the tv. He used to play sports, used to see his friends semi-regularly. He has cut off contact with most of his friends, he no longer plays sports. Sometimes once our child is in bed, I will go out with a friend for coffee or to exercise class. When I get home he is where I left him - on the couch. He usually falls asleep in front of the tv. I just leave him there and make my own way to bed when I'm tired. I suppose falling asleep in front of the tv is a way to avoid having sex with me.

I just ordered "Living with the Passive Aggressive Man" and "Emotional Unavailability." Lots of reading for me to do. I don't know if a few MC sessions will be able to fix or help him change his core. He grew up in a PA household and this is who he is. I'm not willing to walk away from my marriage just yet but I'm very tired in this marriage by myself. I got married for a reason - to have a sexual, emotional, loving connection with someone. Clearly none of that is happening so unless the leopard changes his spots, I don't see this marriage lasting. This is not what I signed up for and I feel really duped.


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## QuestioningMyMarriage (Apr 3, 2013)

Oh I forgot to add that after our last MC session, we were sitting in the car afterwards and I told him that I'm not threatening him, but that I'm tired of the way things are and that if they don't change, then I'm leaving. I know it does sound like a threat, but I was really stating facts. He said he knows I'm thinking about leaving because he saw me looking at real estate listings on my computer. He didn't seem shocked or angry but then why would a PA man be outright angry, haha.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

The shifty eye!

OMG you just triggered some memories of my PA exH. I just had to see him recently ( my H and I had a going away/birthday party for our son who just went off to boot camp, and I invited the ex) and let me tell you. The shifty eye lives! He still can't give me eye contact after all these years. We've been divorced for 17 years and we've remarried others and everything, but I was trying to chit chat with him, and he never really looked at me ONCE.

I used to hate that when we were together.


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## Fledgling (Feb 3, 2013)

Your husband is not going to take action. Not because he doesn't care, but because he is afraid to make the wrong decision. Then he can pass it off on you. If you leave you will be in the wrong. If you stay you will be in the wrong ("I'm not making you stay if you are so miserable.") BTDTGTTS

You've found that you must make decisions in spite of his PA. With PA husbands expecially we take lack of action or lack of affirmation as validation that they just don't care. * This is not true! * I want to stress this to you very heavily because if your husband is anything like mine he does care. Alot. 

Be a detective. See what makes him tick. My husband needs _constant _praise and validation.  I hate giving it to him because alot of times I don't feel like he deserves it. Plus, I don't need alot of praise for what I do around the home so it doesn't hold the same value for me. His love language is totally words of affirmation. I hate it but there it is. Mine is quality time. Lately my husband has been putting more effort into doing things and going places WITHOUT THE KIDS with me. I love that and I praise him for that. Win-Win. 

What is your husband's main mode of showing affection and recieving it? Is it the same as yours? Highly unlikely.

So what to do with that? I have found that doing what is best for the marriage (not just myself) no matter what. If I want sex I get creative how to get it. If I want him to initiate more it still needs effort on my part to make it happen (looking like a ragged housewife is not a turn on to my husband). Do it on the couch if you have to (since he won't come to bed). Seriously. Your typical day doesn't inspire either one of you to feel sexy or want to get it on. You just look at one another with resentment. Total mood killer. If my husband goes all PA on me to the point of tears and hopelessness (a frequent occurance  ) I double down on the good stuff. Stuff that I would be doing for him if I wasn't so angry. I know he cares because when I do that he doesn't meekly accept it as his due, he really appreciates it and shows it off to friends, family, and coworkers.

I guess my point is don't give up yet. Be a detective. You got this! *hugs*


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## Shinobi (Jan 24, 2012)

I have been reading this thread and thought it may be useful to make a comment. I have recently realized (this week!!) I am the PA husband, have denied/not seen/recognized it for a long time, and to the point my marriage is by a thread right now, and a shock has gone through my system to the point I want to make the difference and know there is an impressive mountain to climb to get back up there. I have posted on here about things in the past how I don’t get what I’m putting in and support etc, which perhaps in reflection is down to me more than anything else. After reading some more on here I got hold of the No More Mr Nice Guy book, and saw my story written within, I ticked the box in about 90% of the symptoms associated with the “Nice guy Syndrome” and feel it is also a very PA state.

My wife is in a near closed off reaction to anything I do, but that is because of the cause and effect of everything I have done over the years thinking I was doing good, when in fact it is the total opposite, things that I feel she has withdrawn from and to put back, when in fact she has withdrawn from because of the way my PA has made her feel, but on the whole I can see things within and hope I can make the difference to hold onto my wife and marriage.

From the previous comments I have taken some quotes for comment to put this into perspective

“He rarely argues. He avoids conflict at all costs. I'm the angry one, the spouse who makes the decisions because that's his way to avoid any conflict and avoid being wrong” – This is spot on I avoid conflict to the point I have allowed people to run roughshod over my wife and her feelings, not to upset her, but so I am not drawn into conflict with the other person be it a stranger, friend, family or child, leaving her totally feeling unprotected. I will not give a definitive answer on virtually anything, leaving decisions to my wife by open ended questions, example what do you fancy for dinner, not shall we have chicken. I fear the thought of getting it wrong, so if it is not suggested I can’t get it wrong and following all her suggestions I am in the right. Right? No!!

“But it also means feeling completely alone in the relationship - no support, no teamwork.” That’s me, as mentioned above the support in conflict is not there, the support in doing around the house and doing things for her IS there, but that is in a physical sense, not the emotional sense and whilst I have felt that is support, it is, but not in the right sense. Teamwork is none, I leave all the decisions up to her, I let her sort the kids, discipline, organizing everything and generally fit in with arrangements rather than making, but then making an arrangement and the fear of getting it wrong, it is better to avoid being wrong. Right? No!!

“I feel like there is no teamwork, no partnership, no nothing. I feel very alone and none of my needs are getting met. No emotional connection, no sex, nothing” Whilst she has never expressed feeling alone, her needs, particularly supportive, protective and emotional needs are not getting met, how can they when I avoid conflict therefore never protecting her, the lack of teamwork means doing it all is leaving her drained and I imagine resentful for being left that way. Sex is very much wanted by both parties, except over time she has lost the emotional connection has then not felt like fulfilling our sex life we once had, I then take the rejection further thinking she needs to pick herself up not me and give less support thus fuelling a downward spiral, then when it does happen the total apprehension of doing it wrong or not to satisfaction resulting in a negative experience and so the cycle goes on until it is virtually non existent.

“They react. That's all. It's how they avoid blame. If they don't do anything, they can't be blamed for it. It's always the fault of someone else” Yes, yes, yes. If I don’t make a decision, act on something, say something, I can’t get it wrong and therefore can not be blamed, but if I react to a decision or action I am following and therefore getting it right. Right? No!!

“But you may have to shock him out of lethargy first. When he sees the problem (which he may do already), sees the consequences (you leave) AND sees what could be (him repair himself/get repaired) and have a real life, with good sex and all.” Yes I have been shocked to my boots and can see what I could be, have taken advice and doing some fact finding to repair myself with the hope of a real life, good sex and all.

“Those of us who fall into this category berate ourselves for caring too much (and then we feel like we have to be the opposite of who we really are and not care at all which is a PA trait, btw) But why shouldn't we care? Isn't this what we married our spouses for? Stop beating yourself up for caring.” My wife cares intensely and then has been pushed to the point of really not caring at all as there seems to be no gain for caring, and it is what you are married for

“I got married for a reason - to have a sexual, emotional, loving connection with someone. Clearly none of that is happening so unless the leopard changes his spots, I don't see this marriage lasting.” So true, and will be the end result, I am intent on changing my spots and know it takes some time to revert almost a decade of PA placed upon my wife, but am determined.

“Your husband is not going to take action. Not because he doesn't care, but because he is afraid to make the wrong decision.” I care deeply for my wife and always have, and have always steered clear of taking action simply because I have been afraid of the wrong decision, but as above shock has prevailed and am now taking action.

“With PA husbands expecially we take lack of action or lack of affirmation as validation that they just don't care. This is not true! I want to stress this to you very heavily because if your husband is anything like mine he does care. A lot” This is very true I do care a lot, it just does not seem to be the case, although as expressed there is some effort and hope in changing.

“I double down on the good stuff. Stuff that I would be doing for him if I wasn't so angry. I know he cares because when I do that he doesn't meekly accept it as his due, he really appreciates it and shows it off to friends, family, and coworkers.” When I feel I have had the good stuff that doesn’t or hasn’t happened because of the anger there is nobody that doesn’t know about my appreciation really, and it just drives me for a period as being almost invincible, but it can not be sustained if I am not giving back, therefore it drops down again and the downward spiral continues. So it is up to me to put back in to get out, but I only just realized that!!

I hope that makes sense in terms of a point of view from the opposite side and someone who has very recently recognized PA traits and has a huge wish to make the change, and more importantly sustain it.

Best wishes to all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## IsGirl3 (Nov 13, 2012)

wow shinobi! that was fascinating insight into the life of a PA person and even more interesting that you recognize it in yourself and confirming all of the above statements to be true. good luck to you in turning it around. it would probably mean a lot to your wife if you told her all this.

Re: the poster, unless your husband recognizes the problem, I don't see hope for your marriage. Hanging in there for the sake of your child is not a good reason to stay married. If you have to sell the house, you can remain in the same school district so your child won't be making such a radical change in life.

good luck to you. it sounds like you wonder why you haven't woken up sooner, or seen the red flags sooner. Now that you see them, you can't continue on this way, or at the end of your life you'll just be reflecting on your regrets that lasted decades more than necessary.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Shinobi,
Thank you ever so much for posting.
A great insight. 

My H was dx by a therapist, but is not getting specific PA treatment. He's working on his self esteem, and looking into his own "why am I here" answers, the meaning of life.

He has told me he's simply not confident enough to take responsibility for his own actions. Or so he was taught. He's learning that is false. 

I've helped him with this in a few aspects. I've made it clear that I can forgive him... he just didn't know any other way. Doesn't mean he's a bad person, just how he was raised and his life circumstances. 

I've told him I believe he can be better. And I do. 

And I fired him as a husband. No pressures. No expectations. 
Just the truth. He's a great person, but is lacking some skills in how to deal with life. 

Yes, I enforce boundaries. I don't fix it for him. But I also don't get as annoyed about the "what's for dinner" discussions anymore. 
I've also learned how to not take that personally and encourage him to make decisions, by simply letting go of right and wrong.

I'd love to know how things turn out for you.
I do hope you also realise the same thing... you are not a bad person, just cope differently, and it's possible to learn other ways. Forgiving yourself is a big step as well. 

Some books are helpful with retraining yourself.... The Four Agreements by Don Miguel Ruiz. The Gifts of Imperfection by Brenne Browne.


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## QuestioningMyMarriage (Apr 3, 2013)

Shinobi, wow, thank you for the thoughtful post! It's amazing to hear from a PA person who wants to _change._ Does your wife know that you're committed to changing? Are you in marriage counselling or individual counselling? I'm curious if one (or both) of your parents were PA? Are you able to update us with your progress? I wish you good luck and I hope you're able to save your marriage.

I wish my husband would have written your post - then I'd know he'd be committed to working on our marriage. I really am hanging on by a thread and I don't know how much longer I can hang on.

There's only so much I can do if he's not willing to _try_. And I agree that staying in the marriage for our child is unhealthy. I really only just discovered that he's PA and it's been such a shock. I knew something was wrong but I had no idea what it was or the extent of it. I've pushed MC, I've been reading websites, books, and doing lots of reflection on him, me, and our marriage. He says he still loves me but I don't see any changes so once again (still), his actions do not match his words.


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## Shinobi (Jan 24, 2012)

Thankyou for your comments and am happy to give a quick update. I am in a very early stage of this admission to myself, in that I really only took a look at myself this week, due to being I supposed forced to. My wife was off, and suddenly my world was falling apart, time to consider things!!

My wife knows I am committed to changing (or at least that I have said I am, it took days of words to stop her from leaving) but doesn’t know anything about the PA, and to be frank she is VERY wary of me saying I will change, this is because I have said so many times I will change and it lasts a short period before falling back into old ways, but this was prior to me recognizing things within myself, often blaming her for not meeting me half way kind of thing. So in this regard I am doing, not just saying, and I know it is going to take time to show and build up the trust within her again, its taken 9 years to destroy it, it’s not going to fix by next week.

That in itself is painful as part of being PA the expectation is your SO will accept you and go straight back into how they used to be with you, that is simply not going to happen and it takes a lot for me to stand back and not push that, but standing back and considering her and my actions for the long term is the way forward.

There is no counseling going on, marriage or individual, never has been, I am reading and listening myself, considering all the subtle changes. Here is an example, instead of an open ended question of would you like a drink, if so what do you want, and running to get what ever she asks for getting the same for myself, wishing to please her (nice guy syndrome combined with PA by not making a decision that could be wrong) I am now saying I’m going to make a cup of tea, do you want one? And listening to what she would like, then doing as I said I was going to for me and if needs be making her a coffee, rather than if she said no thanks, I would follow suit and not bother.

In terms of my parents, that’s a tricky one, I don’t think so, but I know I get some of my traits from them, the keep quiet to avoid conflict type things, and lack of being decisive for sure.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## QuestioningMyMarriage (Apr 3, 2013)

This is fantastic that you've recognized the problem and that you're working on it, Shinobi. I think you're on the right track asking specific questions like that. Be direct. Our MC told us that I need to make 50% of the decisions and that H needs to make 50% of the decsions.

Little update on me...H and I had a talk on Friday and I would say it was probably the biggest/longest talk we've had in YEARS. I told him that his actions are not matching his words. He tried to do his PA stuff but after reading a bit more on here and different websites, I called him on stuff if hew as vague (which he was!). He says he's committed to our marriage but I told him he's not following through with the homework from the MC. She asked him to do some affirmations (maybe 10) in the mirror each day. He said he's been doing them at work first thing in the morning because no one else is around. I actually laughed at him and asked if he really expected me to believe that. He has an answer for everything! Then he got huffy with me and took the paper with the affirmations and went into the bathroom and closed the door. He was in there for about 15 minutes. He said he was doing the affirmations and then he wrote it on the calendar, something like "Affirmations - 15 min."

By writing it on the calendar he can say "see? I did what was asked of me!" But the MC didn't ask him to do this for 15 mintues. It would probably take 1 or 2 minutes if he did what was asked of him. Then yesterday was the worst. He got up with our child and they had breakfast. I could see our child only had a bowl of cereal and an apple and I knew we were going out soon. I said to our child, "Would you like a piece of toast?" and child said "yes." H then says to child, "Oh sure, you didn't want a piece of toast when *I* offered it to you!"

I lost it - without getting angry! The MC has asked me to not be aggressive/angry and I think I did pretty good. I asked him if he realized what he just said. He had no idea. I told him he's manipulating our child. He said no he wasn't. We went in circles and I wouldn't drop it because I felt like it was a pretty serious thing to say. He was playing a victim and I told him I thought he was playing a victim.

He also told me he'd cut the grass last week. Our house looks like it's been abandoned - the grass is that long. I'm thinking about getting a neighourhood kid to cut it but it makes me angry that I have to pay for it. He had ample opportunity this weekend but he didn't follow through. I didn't say a single word about the grass. I'm embarrassed. When we bought this house he said he'd cut the grass, no problem. Again, actions and words don't match.

I think the most frustrating thing is that his actions still do not match his words. He can tell me one thing and do another (or not do another, ha!) and I've believed it for so long. I don't think I want to be in this marriage. Even after learning what the problem is, I still get to do all the work.

I'm so angry and frustrated. Thanks for listening. I'm going to give it a few more MC sessions, but I think our marriage might be over.


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Hi QMM -

Have you told him these things in MC? That you feel like you are the only one wiling to do the work, that you don't see him recognizing and changing ineffective behaviors, that you will not be able to continue if he isn't committed to working on himself and helping the marriage succeed!

Best, A12
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

He should be seeing his own IC. And he should be checked for depression.


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## QuestioningMyMarriage (Apr 3, 2013)

We had a MC session scheduled for this past Friday but we were not able to get babysitter so it's been rebooked for this Friday. He definitely needs IC.

The grass is just one thing. When we moved in to our house, we got new flooring. The flooring company was going to install baseboards too but he said he would do it to save us money. Well 6.5 years later...still no baseboards. This is just one example of many.


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## SaltInWound (Jan 2, 2013)

QuestioningMyMarriage said:


> Then yesterday was the worst. He got up with our child and they had breakfast. I could see our child only had a bowl of cereal and an apple and I knew we were going out soon. I said to our child, "Would you like a piece of toast?" and child said "yes." H then says to child, "Oh sure, you didn't want a piece of toast when *I* offered it to you!"
> 
> I lost it - without getting angry! The MC has asked me to not be aggressive/angry and I think I did pretty good. I asked him if he realized what he just said. He had no idea. I told him he's manipulating our child. He said no he wasn't. We went in circles and I wouldn't drop it because I felt like it was a pretty serious thing to say. He was playing a victim and I told him I thought he was playing a victim.


Baby steps of progress is better than nothing.

Can I mention something about what I quoted above without you becoming offended? I think the entire scenario at breakfast could have been avoided. 

What your husband offered your son was nutritionally sufficient. The cereal provided the grains/carbs and the apple provided a fruit. While the toast is nice, it wasn't necessary, as nutritionally, the bread is just another grain/carb. By stepping in and offering your son an additional item, you implied (probably not intentionally) to your husband that he was incapable of properly feeding/providing for his son without your supervision. This is why he took offense. 

True, he should not have had the outburst toward your son. He will have to learn to address those issues better. He should have told you he already offered your son toast and your son declined. He could have backed that up by asking your son to verify. The point is, he handled it poorly in the way he tried to prove to you he was capable of providing without your supervision.


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## QuestioningMyMarriage (Apr 3, 2013)

SaltInWound, I'm definitely not perfect and I'm totally up for advice. Child and H had been up since about 7 am. We were due to be somewhere at 10 am so offered the toast at 9 am. I was thinking that if we have to be somewhere for 10 am and child ate only a little bit at 7 am, things could go sideways with a meltdown. (Child is under 5 years old.) I get what you're saying, but I think offering the toast when I did shouldn't have caused him to say that to our child. It was manipulative and he was being a victim.


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## Fledgling (Feb 3, 2013)

QMM, I understand your frustration. I have a husband who does practically nothing around the house (except make messes) and starts projects and doesn't finish them, or does them half-heartedly. He only recently got a job after six months of being unemployed. During that time he spent it almost exclusively on the computer. He did put alot of effort into interviews and applications and resumes, but truly that didn't take 8 hours a day every day for 6months and he didn't do a single solitary thing to help around the house. Then he blamed me because I wasn't working hard enough so why should he have been. He promised me that the basement would be cleaned out by the end of February and I'm still having anxiety getting to the clothes washer through the "path" he made for me. And this is just one of the things he does on a daily basis. You'd think after six months alot more could have gotten done. But no.

I _truly_ understand what you are going through. I have been stuck at home for three weeks with two children because although we have three vehicles in our driveway only one of them works. I would drive hime into work, except that he has a long commute which is hard on the baby. So home I stay.

However your tone suggests that your husband can't do the simplest little thing right. Like feeding your child. Simply packing your child a snack "just in case" would have avoided the situation entirely.

And you know what? I get it. You don't want to have to dance around these situations. Seemingly common sense actions to take shouldn't require constant nagging...but marriage is a lot of give and take. Same with the baseboards. Now safety issues or something then, yes, you should definately speak up. (We have family that are highly allergic to bees and we have a notoriously bad hornet problem that needs to be proactively addressed all spring and summer -- it's not something I can let slide but believe me my husband would put it off if he could) But if it's not...then I suggest you let things slide as much as possible...not because your husband deserves it but because you deserve it. And if something becomes intolerable, like paying for the grass to be mowed, then you have to decide how much angrier you would be if the grass wasn't mowed at all. And if you can't afford to have someone mow it then what is worse being angry every time you see it long or doing it yourself? I highly suggest that you hire work out as much as possible. If your husband complains about the money you will know that you are handling what you can but other things need to get done. And your husband can decide to either keep letting the work get hired out and pay or do it himself.


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## OverTheShoulder (May 1, 2013)

After reading this, it kind of rings bells of my wife and I. We were always outgoing, but she soon began to rag on me, so I kind of secluded in my shell as she began forcing things without considering my opinion.

The only reason why I think I don't have it is that I frequently take lead on things, even though they sometimes fall through the cracks as being meaningful or enjoyable in her eyes. Like planning a trip to Disneyland. Nothing but bad things left her mouth. For me, it’s more reactive that I withdraw. I don't want to do anything, but it's just not me so I keep moving. Sometimes she makes decisions. I like giving the option, and we tend to agree on things together.

I got labeled in another thread as being a Nice Guy, and I believe it, but is there a point when PA and NG bridge?

I'm not in denial, and I "suffer" from some of these "symptoms", but as a reaction to how I have been treated, and I know in my mind that’s not me or how I want to be. It corrects itself after a few days, but I am usually smacked back down.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

PA behavior is a coping mechanism. Everyone has some of the traits, some of the time. Just a label for how you react to something. 
I can think of times when I've behaved PA.

A few people do have a full blown personality disorder.

I guess the point of even looking at it is being aware of your own reactions and choosing "better" options in the future.

IMO, being a nice guy or girl is the stepping stone to PA behavior. When you've had enough... you either lose your cool or you seek revenge. 

The root behavior in both things... is the desire to be RIGHT. Or have things your way. Learning to let go of that makes life a whole lot easier.


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## Lister (Jan 29, 2013)

Shinobi said:


> Thankyou for your comments and am happy to give a quick update. I am in a very early stage of this admission to myself, in that I really only took a look at myself this week, due to being I supposed forced to. My wife was off, and suddenly my world was falling apart, time to consider things!!
> 
> My wife knows I am committed to changing (or at least that I have said I am, it took days of words to stop her from leaving) but doesn’t know anything about the PA, and to be frank she is VERY wary of me saying I will change, this is because I have said so many times I will change and it lasts a short period before falling back into old ways, but this was prior to me recognizing things within myself, often blaming her for not meeting me half way kind of thing. So in this regard I am doing, not just saying, and I know it is going to take time to show and build up the trust within her again, its taken 9 years to destroy it, it’s not going to fix by next week.
> 
> ...


Hi Shinobi, thanks for your posts, I'm wondering how you are getting on in addressing your PA behaviours. 

I am without doubt a PA husband as well and am starting out down the road of changing my behaviour to save my marriage and my wife's sanity. Similar story to you except that I also had an affair to make matters worse and my wife and I have been working on reconciliation for 13 months now. The PA behaviours have been toxic to our relationship and i am desperate to be rid of them. 

I believe I have made some changes to my behaviour and modified and minimised some of them but I am aware that they run very deep and can creep back easily. I am buying many of the books already mentioned on this thread but would welcome any insights you can give based on your own experiences of trying to change.

many thanks


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