# Big trouble in Brooklyn WW/ WAW



## sdoiuasd (Jan 30, 2017)

Here's a rough one:

I've been with my fiancee (both 29, no kids) for nearly 7 years, were friends for 3 years before that. This was her first relationship (at all), my 3rd. Originally from MN, we moved to NYC together about 5 years ago, as it was her dream. I'm a very hard-working and kind guy, she is very shy, doesn't trust easily, but we've been generally sweet, almost inseperable, and very affectionate, just private. She has a twin sister (also in NYC) who is simply awful –*repels people, is rude, and has never dated anyone past 3 months. The sister has constantly told my fiancee she could do better than me, and has undermined our relationship from the start. Her mother (and our couples therapist) said this is jealousy. This, along with just general couple squabbles, has led to about 7 breakups/ makeups in as many years. With her always breaking up, and eventually showing up again some weeks later, depressed and sorry. It's been hard, and she is aware of the pattern, says she genuinely loves me, and I've just kind of accepted it. It seems to be a fear of commitment, since it's happened pretty much at every new point in our relationship (BF/GF, moving in together, moving cross country, engagement, kids talk, etc.). She says she has painful recurring doubts about the 'rightness' of us, herself, friends, family, and just about everything.

We had not planned to spend our lives in NY, though she is very attached to it (childhood dream), so I've been wary of voicing my growing dislike of it here. We've both succeeded in our careers, but became swamped with work, bills, routine, some unchecked resentments, etc., but still had goals, fun, and love was never a problem. She had been depressed for a few months after grad school, not being able to find interesting work, but found a contract job at a law school. This was March. And, as far as I can tell, we were great, stronger than ever till May.

Recurring problems we've had:
1) I take on too much in the R, leaves me burnt out, and her feeling left out
2) I can sometimes need to work very long hours + weekends, and have little time
3) She is at times, very socially anxious, gives up on friendships easily, and won't live her own life, so I am the only one there
4) Small resentments, on both sides, go uncommunicated till they blow up.
5) I have been drinking too much this year, part of the long hours
6) Without a big goal ahead of us, we can both get restless and irritable
7) She's *extremely* fixated on NYC as some dream, even though we have no financial future here, have had ME v.s. NYC fights
8) She has a great fear of control, though I see myself as very permissive, till this
9) The sister has been trying to break us up in every way possible, directly and indirectly, for years
10) She has like, DEEP trust issues, thinks that people are out to get/ humiliate her. Often have to defend friends (or myself) and reassure, or she writes them off 

Fast forward to June, another breakup talk, but this one out of nowhere. Says she's unhappy, doesn't see a future, thinks I would make her get an abortion if she got pregnant (prior to this we were both outspokenly against children). I broke down and cried, but at this point, I'd had enough. I spent the night wandering the city, she I don't know. The next day she begged me to come back, said she didn't know what she was doing, and we made up.

A few weeks later we took a vacation with both our families. I sensed something was up, as her mother took me aside, told me what a great man I was, how happy she was I was in her daughter's life, and thanked me for "putting up" with her. There was some similar tension the whole trip. 

When we got back to NY, we celebrated some friend's closing on a house upstate with them and my best friend. We all got really drunk, there was cocaine, and these friends, being swingers, kind of coerced us into it. Normally this is NOT something we would ever do, but I felt some impending doom coming. About 30 seconds in, I called it off, told my fiancee we're out, and went and had a cigarette. Long story short, I got kicked out, and the night ended with my fiancee sleeping with my best friend, her coming home the next morning.

Needless to say I was pretty upset. I punched a wall, then the following day broke down. When she saw how hurt I was she ran to the swinger friend's house, and told them I was a terrible person, then tried to break up with me by phone. I wrote her a long apology letter (I know...) and eventually she came back, broke down in tears and shame, begging for a second chance, and agreed to couples therapy. Wrote it off as pretty bad judgment on both our parts.

The following months were hard, but we seemed to be working through it. It was very confusing, because she'd alternate hot/ cold. Some days breaking down, saying I'm the greatest guy ever, that she didn't deserve me, that she was ****ing up all the good in her life, doesn't know why she's sabotaging us, that she was miserable before we got together, that I'm the best thing that ever happened to her. That she always knew she was "****ed up" somehow. I'd just hold her while she cried it out. Some days we'd wedding plan. A lot of days we were good as normal, if not better. Some days she claims this is all her inner turmoil, that I have nothing to do with it. And some days I'd see a wild, hateful arrogance I'd never seen before, and be blamed for literally everything in her life. I couldn't seem to do anything right, be it strong, or sad. She was waffling for sure, but every time I made to leave she'd cry and beg for me back. She starts saying this is a 'commitment test', that she needs boundaries, a consequence, but doesn't want to break up. At some point, a crush with her boss came up, and alarm bells sounded. This is when, in therapy, I hear "I love you, but I don't love our relationship."

This guy had come up in conversation for several months, and we had kind of just laughed it off. Her words: 'He's a brown-haired version of you'. So now, I go into full panic. She swears he's just a work friend, a stupid crush, etc. Our therapist suggests she cut contact with him by leaving her job (only 1 month left anyway), which she initially agrees to. I ask her to stop talking with him, which she agrees to. Weeks go by, and I do everything wrong by being hypervigilant, needy, definitely overstepped on privacy, etc. In a fight, she tells me she needs "a stable man, not this". Tension built, and she was incredibly distant, stressed, and depressed (waking up in the middle of the night, hair falling out, argumentative). At this point, I was getting close to exposing, the sister was involved, and **** hit the fan, and she left to "cool down" a few days, staying with her sister. I again do all the wrong things, beg, cry, etc. This is December.

A few days later she calls to tell me we're through, that she's not ready to see me in person. A week goes by, and I try to be understanding, having gone through this many times before with her. She comes home to finalize some details (keys, bills, accounts, etc.) and is very haughty. We decide to make a night of it and try to enjoy each other, end up having sex, etc. She said she'd slept with someone since, and I asked who, she stares blankly. "Oh, so I'm not crazy." So started EA, went PA at some point. I didn't freak out, was trying to keep my cool, just move on. She moved out over Christmas.

So, it's the same sad story and script. Since, I've tried to make it clear that I love her and am willing to work on us, should she be able to end it (honestly, I had made my peace with that possibility long ago, it came as a relief after thinking I was crazy), but have kept my distance. She is claiming to mutual friends that this was an exit affair, though that seems irregular. She cares VERY deeply about her self-image and how people perceive her, so she of course is blaming me and our relationship, when she really just got busted.

Part of what kept me trying through all this is seeing how conflicted and scared she was. Even days before she left she cried saying to "never give up on me, no matter what I say or do". That she feels she as a "void" within her (not the first time I have heard this) and is hurting. All of this (the anger mainly) is *very* out of character for her, and the only reassurance I have is that it's scripted. There's a limit to what behavior I will accept, but she admits this acting out is more shame-based than anything. That seeing me makes her feel like a bad person, and thinks I will rage or hold this over her head forever or try to control her, that the boss means nothing, that she'll end up alone, but that she feels we're not strong enough to get through this. It may be difficult to believe at this point, but she is, at most times, a genuinely sweet, if fragile person (self-image issues, depression). If left to just us, we were great.

I have not been anywhere near perfect in this. We've fought loudly, and often, though never physical. I've shown weakness more than a few times, lost respect. I would still take her back, though I don't know how to communicate A) Cheating and lying are not behaviors I'll tolerate and B) she doesn't have to be scared I'll rage out or not be able to get past this. Now, a month since she's moved out, I still have a great deal of love for her, and she admits the same for me, but we've both gone NC. She even admits to the justifications and "cheater-script", but will not come home, and seems to have MORE anger now the affair's exposed. Have we dug ourselves too deep? What the hell even happened? I feel like I'm just holding a big bag of WTF for the cute, sweet life we had. So for now, I've just been 180, trying not to doormat anymore, left with 'loving detachment'. But is there anything else I can do to wake her up/ bring her home?

At this point, I know she's remorseful, and have seen it.


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## MyRevelation (Apr 12, 2016)

Look ... you're 29, single, no kids and your GF has cheated on you with at least 2 different guys in the last year. In addition, you don't like the city.

Sounds like the perfect time to put this dysfunction in the rear view mirror and start a new life for yourself in a much better location. Seriously, she's shown you who she really is, and it's not M material. You dodged a huge bullet here ... thank your lucky stars and move on.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

I am sorry this happened to you.

But why would you want to stay with a woman who kicked you out of a house so she can stay and have sex with swingers then goes on to have another sexual affair with someone else. She does not return the love you have for her.

She is and will be a serial cheater. She will do it again at some point.

The best thing you can do is get your azz out of NYC and leave her there to enjoy her life as a single girl since that is what she has been doing anyway.

Run fast, far, and don't look back.


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## Grapes (Oct 21, 2016)

push/pull for 7 years. Sleeps with your best friend, bails on you when she wants to bang another guy, comes back knowing you will be ok. dude...

Why do you want to continue this and 'love' isnt a good enough answer?

If your best friend, not the one that banged your girl after your protest, came to you with this story what would your advice be?

this sounds kind of dysfunctional and she sounds like a flake.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

What ^they said^.


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## rockon (May 18, 2016)

MyRevelation said:


> Look ... you're 29, single, no kids and your GF has cheated on you with at least 2 different guys in the last year. In addition, you don't like the city.
> 
> Sounds like the perfect time to put this dysfunction in the rear view mirror and start a new life for yourself in a much better location. Seriously, she's shown you who she really is, and it's not M material. You dodged a huge bullet here ... thank your lucky stars and move on.


This. Nothing more needs to be discussed.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Concur with all that is posted above.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

What part if this relationship sounds even close to normal...you are the biggest dupe or the biggest doormat...tell you...can you please become a man and god sake kick her ass to the curb is not WORTH IT!!!!!


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

One detail to clean up. Is the "affair" with the boss from work and is the boss married? The right thing to do would be to tell the boss's wife so she can have the truth about her life (NOT as a tactic to punish your ex-girlfriend or get your ex-girlfriend back). It's simply the right thing to do ~~ like reporting a crime. 

I will also add, it is no more immoral for your live-in girlfriend to have sex with others than to have sex with you. If you are Christian, both are sexual fornication. This makes it a little hypocritical for you to cast aspersions toward her immoral sexual behavior without taking a good look at your own. You weren't married, she made no vow of sexual exclusivity to you; and, therefore, you are suffering the consequences of your own choices, sins, and "putting the cart before the horse". You allowed your hormones to obscure your better judgement or you'd have determined this girl wasn't right for you YEARS ago. Now you're in a dysfunctional relationship that appears to be ending {but you know or hope she's just going to come back again like she has before}. The only person you control is you and it's time for you to choose to end this charade yourself. I bet your family misses you and will be overjoyed to see you home and dodging this bullet. 

Time for you to live your own dreams. Never a good idea to living your girlfriend's dream, resentfully. 

Make your life your own.

Watch a movie about minimalism and move into a "tiny house" back home in MN and you'll end up so much happier than a crazy life with a crazy mentality and a crazy lady in a crazy town.


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

Do you know what GTFO means? 

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


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## sdoiuasd (Jan 30, 2017)

Thanks all, kind of what I'd thought, just hard to see someone I loved turn so hard against me, and for little reason. Like most on here I guess, never something I thought I would have to worry about with this one. 
@Quality , neither of us are religious, but both had a firm monogamous agreement. Part of why (along with the drugs, alcohol) I was willing to work past the swinging night as a mutual lapse of judgment.

I have a hard time giving up on people whatever the circumstances, especially the one I'd devoted a quarter of my life to. Even mutual friends are shocked, they'd assumed we were kind of weird soulmates. But a hell of a lot better now than if we'd had kids, I suppose.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

sdoiuasd said:


> Thanks all, kind of what I'd thought, just hard to see someone I loved turn so hard against me, and for little reason. Like most on here I guess, never something I thought I would have to worry about with this one.
> 
> @Quality , neither of us are religious, but both had a firm monogamous agreement. Part of why (along with the drugs, alcohol) I was willing to work past the swinging night as a mutual lapse of judgment.
> 
> I have a hard time giving up on people whatever the circumstances, especially the one I'd devoted a quarter of my life to. Even mutual friends are shocked, they'd assumed we were kind of weird soulmates. But a hell of a lot better now than if we'd had kids, I suppose.


HOLD ON ...HOLD ON...its okay for her to dump your ass over and over...to screw you over with your best friend...and that's okay in your book? as long as your not giving up on her....as Dr. Phil would say "how is that working for you?"
you really have self-esteem issues you need to deal with....if i was your dad, i would tell you to kick her ass to the curb she is not worthy of your love. No one...and i mean no one shoudl ever be treated like that


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

After all that has happened, surely you can't imagine ever being married? Cut your losses, go no contact with her, move to a place you actually like. Basically, start over. 

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

You need to go back and read what you have written. 

Sorry for the pain you are going through but you have brought it on yourself. You let her get away with so much over the years she lost all respect for you. 

Move to wherever you want and start again. Read No More Mr Nice Guy and work on yourself. 

I do not believe this is the first time she cheated during your many breaks.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

I'd just give her another 2-3 chances. She hasn't yet slept with the next-door neighbor, that guy at the gym or the mailman.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

sdoiuasd said:


> *There's a limit to what behavior I will accept*
> 
> Really? After all her breaks ups with you, her cheating, and her mental instability? And yet, you say you'd still take her back? There is apparently no limit.
> 
> ...


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## rzmpf (Mar 11, 2016)

She cheats on you with two men (one of them your best friend...you seem to pick really nice people to be close to you).
She breaks up with you often.
Her sister interferes constantly.
She says she wants out and doesn't end the affair.
You don't like to live in NYC, she wants to.
Stress makes you drink.
Constant counseling.

WTF IS THERE TO SALVAGE???? GTFO. ASAP, which means yesterday.

She seems to give no 2 cents about you and uses your love for her to abuse you and to string you along (I guess for as long as she does not find someone better). You are not married, no kids, just cut your losses, move where you want to and don't look back. Don't waste any more time on her, she is not worth it.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

I'll tell you the same thing as I've told many a young man. You are looking for a partner, not a project. You are looking for someone as close to a whole integrated person as you can find. She is not even close!

Consider your relationship as an interview for marriage. At this point in time, she doesn't pass the interview. 

Here are the facts... 

You can't fix her. She needs to do that herself. People can only fix themselves. She has a lot of work to do. Don't get yourself into a co-dependent relationship. 

Don't Fall into the White Knight Syndrome. It will not help her or you grow. 

Nice guys are notorious rescuers. There are dozens of threads on this site and others like it, about nice guys who found themselves in over their heads. 

Resist being a nice guy... No More Mr Nice Guy. 

Do some work on yourself, get your act together and find a grown up. There are plenty of grown-ups out there. You deserve at least that. We all deserve that. 

Boundaries: When To Say Yes, How to Say No

I hope reading these links I included help you decide...


Best


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## JayOwen (Oct 26, 2016)

Nothing really to add that other posters haven't already (i.e. time to get out of there).

I'll only say "You tried, man." I think for some of us that's an important element, that we didn't just walk away even when we know we're justified in doing so. Everything you wrote out it sounds like you gave it a really good effort, even if she (or others in your life) don't recognize it. Hell, even her MOM told you as much, that you were putting up with a lot of ****.

So walk away with a clean conscience, you gave it your best shot and thankfully you're dodging a bullet. Anything less than walking away sounds a lot like unhealthy co-dependence. Don't get back on that train dude!


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## sdoiuasd (Jan 30, 2017)

Well I think the Mom knew, is what it came down to. 

Ah, well. @anchorwatch you're dead right Re: partner vs. project. If she wasn't in need of something (affection, money, reassurance, activity) she'd turn on me in a second. I almost got roped into paying for a 10-day trip to Cuba (bought without any sort of heads-up or inclusion) the week before she took off.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

sdoiuasd said:


> Thanks all, kind of what I'd thought, just hard to see someone I loved turn so hard against me, and for little reason. Like most on here I guess, never something I thought I would have to worry about with this one.


SD my man, Let me ask you a question. Do you believe simply loving her is sufficient for to get what you want from the relationship? Of course you know the answer and you know she's jerking you around and she'll never have enough interest in you again to put humpty dumpty back together. It ain't going to happen Dawg no matter how much you love her, how much you never give up on people, etc., etc. My Revelation gave excellent advice in post 2. You need to heed it as well as the others that told you to get out while the getting is good. (and before she gets knocked up by some other cat and needs a stooge to blame and to step up as the father) Again I have a song that reminds me of your situation. Listen to it, especially at about 1.58 minutes in.


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## eric1 (Apr 10, 2015)

Dude


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> I'd just give her another 2-3 chances. She hasn't yet slept with the next-door neighbor, that guy at the gym or the mailman.


Wonder what gym she goes to......


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

sdoiuasd said:


> I have a hard time giving up on people whatever the circumstances, especially the one I'd devoted a quarter of my life to.


I know that's supposed to come out as nice guy speak, but nah it just comes off as a bit creepy, possessive and sorry a little bit weak.

You've been repeatedly humiliated, cheated on but no, it's you that's not giving up and doing stand up thing. But when does this supposed moral strength thing start to trump degrading your self respect?

As of now she's moved out and is probably banging this guy as we speak, of course she's trying to let you down gently because having two affairs, moving out and breaking up with you is not a loud enough message for you to hear.

You have a hard time giving up on people yet you seem fine with giving up on yourself and your self respect.


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## sdoiuasd (Jan 30, 2017)

@BobSimmons That's fair. I've been well trained Re: makeup/ breakup, but she's got a replacement all worked out this time.

I've stuck with abusive employers and friends, same. Will need to figure that out, I seem to have a sign on my back.

@VladDracul yeah, that song is perfect. Interestingly enough my father fell into a similar pattern with my mother (nicely, handy, she the perpetual victim). When he'd had enough push/pull and cheating, he tried to leave it ended up with me, my brother, divorce, and a 15 year long custody suit.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

Take what has happened for what it is, a bunch of BS. Learn from this and stop letting poeple walk all over you.


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

sdoiuasd said:


> @BobSimmons That's fair. I've been well trained Re: makeup/ breakup, but she's got a replacement all worked out this time.
> 
> I've stuck with abusive employers and friends, same. Will need to figure that out, I seem to have a sign on my back.
> 
> @VladDracul yeah, that song is perfect. Interestingly enough my father fell into a similar pattern with my mother (nicely, handy, she the perpetual victim). When he'd had enough push/pull and cheating, he tried to leave it ended up with me, my brother, divorce, and a 15 year long custody suit.


Has she got a replacement? What other guy is going to put up with her BS before he figures the sex isn't worth that hassle, then she might be back for the only man she knows she can cheat on and he'll take her back.

My gripe was with the statement of sticking by her because you gave her x amount of years, like she owed you something and that it was fine as long she stayed and half assed her way through R then you would stick by her.. as evidenced she ran as fast as she could.

Love doesn't cheat, love doesn't betray you and drag your heart through the mud, yeah it's emotive language but it's like saying punch and spit on me but it's ok because... you know love.

Go NC, delete her number and go and have some fun with the blokes and the ladies aka go and live a life. You're single now and next time someone disrespects you, fight for worth and walk away.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

blueinbr said:


> I'd just give her another 2-3 chances. She hasn't yet slept with the next-door neighbor, that guy at the gym or the mailman.


Maybe - maybe not. He can never know for sure if there have been others that he does not know about. There probably have been several in the past 7 years. That's what serial cheater do.


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## PhillyGuy13 (Nov 29, 2013)

Life shouldn't be this hard.

And it doesn't get easier.

Not married? No kids?

Move on and don't look back


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

The only thing good about this train wreck is no kids involved.


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

C'mon, my fellow TAM folks. Let's not jump the gun here and give bad advice to a couple going through a rough patch. Let's not underestimate the positive impact that a qualified therapist could...

Just kidding. Seriously, dump this monster yesterday. She is no good. She will never be any good to anyone in any relationship EVER. You are young and can find a woman who has none of this baggage and will love you like you've never experienced before.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Got partway through.

I call bullshlt.

Leave yesterday.

This reads like a crazy erotic cheating wife story.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Even her mother knows she's BSC.


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

sdoiuasd said:


> Here's a rough one:
> 
> But is there anything else I can do to wake her up/ bring her home?
> 
> At this point, I know she's remorseful, and have seen it.


I don't want to be too blunt here, cause I know you are hurting....But, If you believe she is remorseful....you need to take a class in communication. She is showing you contempt....I can see that from Orygun dude...look closer.

She's gone...You need to celebrate...You didn't marry crazy. You have done yourself such a huge favor, that future you owes you more than he can ever repay. 

Move back home, enjoy your life, find a less crazy woman that is repelled by swinging and NYC. Marry her.


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> Got partway through.
> 
> I call bullshlt.
> 
> ...


"Crazy in NYC"

A young womans awakening to the realization that she lacks empathy, responsibility and accountability. Soon to be a Major Motion Picture Starring Madonna and ****** Judd -Directed by Mike M**re


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

Pretty much ALL of us know your pain and confusion. This is all very new. But if you continue NC and work on yourself, the pain will go away in months.

You are VERY young! Hell, I didn't get married till age 40 and she was 25. But she cheated last year and I was on the market for a while dancing and dating 26-33yr old women. But over our 6 years together we never had the drama you have been going thru. Even getting physical in your arguments? It's NOT normal or healthy. Thank God you don't have kids.

Seriously, look at the advantages of what has happened. No marriage, no kids, your young age. About mid-thirties is a good time to settle down with a good woman. Take this life event as a learning experience. 

So get your butt out of New York City ASAP. Look for a job in Minnesota or somewhere else. Be gone in 2 weeks.

Then start reading the books: "no more mr. Nice guy." and "The White Knight syndrome" by Mary C. Lamia. 
You are wasting your time trying to save people. Then start getting therapy as well as codependency meetings before you consider the possibility of another serious relationship. Try to get NSA sex and live life.

And of course delete all contact information that leads to your ex. Block all of their numbers, use an app if you need to.

Seriously that girl and that Circle of Friends, substance abuse and sex behind your back is not good for you. Your best friend stop being your friend when he stuck his penis into your ex, while knowing full well that you were angry and disapproved the situation.

At this time you are not doing 180. You are just starting it. If you were doing 180 you would have left town already.

Trust us on this. Read the posts from others about nightmares with their cheating spouses and having two or four kids that now have a broken home. 

Everything is already stacked up against you and your ex. Ever working it out. And after marriage with kids, those challenges get tougher, NOT easier.

When you are done reading this. Sign up for a job placement website and make plans to leave NYC.

Consider what has happened A GIFT!


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

Oh another thing. Nothing she has said or done that you have told us has shown any remorse. You seem to be projecting that on to her because that is what you want.
There are much better women out there.

A day or so before you move out of NYC, expose the affair to the other man's wife and to human resources. They don't like having cheaters in the workplace because I could lie about other things and make them liable.


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

I'm sorry for the pain you are enduring right now. I'm one of the biggest fans for reconciling when possible.
My advice?

1.) Stop drinking to any level of excess.
2.) Never do drugs again.
3.) Move to where you want to make your life.
4.) Never look back.

Notice she is invisible in my equation? That's exactly what she needs to be for the rest of your life.


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## Vulcan2013 (Sep 25, 2013)

sdoiuasd said:


> @BobSimmons That's fair. I've been well trained Re: makeup/ breakup, but she's got a replacement all worked out this time.
> 
> *I've stuck with abusive employers and friends, same. Will need to figure that out, I seem to have a sign on my back.*
> 
> @VladDracul yeah, that song is perfect. *Interestingly enough my father fell into a similar pattern with my mother (nicely, handy, she the perpetual victim). When he'd had enough push/pull and cheating, he tried to leave it ended up with me, my brother, divorce, and a 15 year long custody suit.*


You don't have a sign, you are seeking this out. 

You need to find out what's going on with your choices. I've stuck by ****ty bosses, and stayed in a bad marriage for over 20 years. I always thought it was all (or mostly all) me, when in reality I was raised to be a scapegoat and a rescuer. Part of my issue was that I didn't think I could do better. 

Funny, after years of self improvement, I came out of the D in great physical, financial and mental shape. I've dated some awesome ladies and enjoy it. But, if it occurs to me that a stable man could solve their problems, I remind myself that it isn't my problem. Didn't cause it, and I don't have to fix it. 

Can't believe no one has suggested yet, but you need to read No More Mr. Nice Guy. Today. Then Married Man Sex Life Primer. Hit the gym, lift weights cut body fat, and cut off all contact with your ex. Ghost her for your own sanity.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

sdoiuasd,

Sorry you have been going through this roller coaster over so many years but tbh, you have made a lucky escape. You have become so addicted to the highs and lows of the roller coaster you were on you do not know what normal is.


And the behaviour of your XF is not normal, I wouldn't be surprised she has some sort of personality disorder or never dug you completely, maybe you were an easy shoulder to cry on, a pocketbook, whatever. There are plenty of decent women out there looking for a decent man (you sound like one) and you are so young and have all the time in the world to find the right one.

Start the 180, no contact, get rid of her **** from the apartment (put in storage or ask her family to collect)
Get yourself some IC to see why you think it is ok to be her doormat
Read NMMNG
Keep yourself occupied with work, gym, sports, etc 
Do NOT look back, you have made a lucky escape.

It will hurt for some time but time heals all and this time next year you could be in a great relationship with someone who treats you the right way


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## Jasel (Jan 8, 2013)

You need to see a therapist to figure out why you're willing to be a doormat for anyone who feels the need to wipe the mud off their feet.

You should have kicked her to the curb some time ago.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Go back to MN. Don't tell her you're leaving. 

The only difference in her and her twin is she had you to abuse and prop her up. Now she is another mans mistress and she doesn't need you for the prop. If he's married let his wife know what she is dealing with. She deserves to know and can get on with a real life.

Number one get those books. MMSLP is linked to below. NMMNG is a free download.


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

She sounds like BSC "Jenny" from Forest Gump? Run Forest Run!


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

sdoiuasd said:


> At this point, I know she's remorseful, and have seen it.


LOL, this is sorry?!? I'd hate to see how many dudes she lets fvck her if she's mad at you.

1) Banged your best friend

2) Banged her boss, lied about it

3) ILYBINILWY speech

4) Fighting all the time

Sounds like wife material to me..... 

You will reap what you sow my friend if you marry this one.

Mark my words. She's broken and she will break you too.


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## becareful2 (Jul 8, 2016)

Neither one of you are ready for marriage, especially her. She's not even relationship material. If you marry her, you deserve everything you get. If you ignore all the red flags, it will no longer be her fault but yours for not exercising good judgement.


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

I notice you are on line right now (she button at the bottom part of poster info next to the black triangle and you have bought a membership and have PM available.

Start by going back and reading your opening post using bullet points. Do you see how disconnected from normal reality it is? How it seems like a bad plot line from an episode from "Sex in the City"? 

You need to chose to end it now, telling you need space for six months. During that period NC, 180 from her, her family, and mutual friends and do IC here to start and with a professional at some point. 

Your goal: I will not marry my mother and her insanity, I will not be my father and allow someone to treat me like his wife did. 

Truth: she has a right to chose her destiny, give it to her. You only have the right to move on. Use it.


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

Sent you two PM here is the link http://www.loveshack.org/forums/bre...e/406628-critical-readings-separation-divorce


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## sdoiuasd (Jan 30, 2017)

@BetrayedDad Nearly did! I was a total disaster for months. Still am, but getting there.

@becareful2 In my (limited) defense, we had never fought like this before. It had been about 3 years from the last breakup, and even those were pretty mild arguments. Many of them only lasted a couple days. I don't know if I'm dealing with a personality disorder or not, she would usually come back for some kind of safety (sick, lonely, Hurricane Sandy, whatever), stating how I was the only one who ever cared about her, etc., and yeah, bad moves on my part. But she's plays the role of victim remarkably well once she finally crashes. Then would follow great times, then she'd get depressed about her job/ us/ body/ place in life/ friends/ whatever she didn't have/ anything. She'd start getting clingy and jealous and blame me for everything (would rage even if she just woke up late, which is not my problem), and the cycle would start again. The good times were great, but she couldn't seem to enjoy normal, stable life for more than a few months.

Whoever stated I don't know what normal is anymore couldn't be more right. It's only when I explain the last months to others do I start to see how bizarre everything was.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

Out of curiosity SD, what is it about her that you like, makes you feel confident, wonderful, trustful, and can't be replaced by another chick? (You already said you love her)


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Why didn't you tell her boss' wife about his affair with your fiancé?


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## sdoiuasd (Jan 30, 2017)

@JohnA Yes I am aware, she's always wanted a 'GIRLS'-esque life. On my end, I ended up working in art, which, while personally fulfilling, that industry is full of crazy people, and I would often work non-stop, just being the only resident Midwestern hardworker. Mutual friends were obviously not a good relationship model either. Swinger friends assured her she had done nothing wrong, said I was "crazy" to be upset. Found out her sister encouraged the affair out of her dislike for me. Family is helping big-time on seeing through what's been going on.You get used to what you're used to, I suppose, even if it's abusive. I had started IC a few months back, and this was becoming clear as well. Reading the links you sent, many thanks.

@VladDracul Well, the past months have obscured that quite a bit, but prior:

When loving, she's very affectionate (She can be quite cold with other people)
She's a great painter, which has always captivated me
We had a strong companionship, built on friendship before
Fun, laughter, was never a problem
Sex was good, if a bit one-sided, found her extremeley attractive
Both introverted, became good at recharging together, very calm, felt understood
We're both are "old souls", I suppose (bonded over jazz, old movies, etc.)
Discussion was always stimulating (politics, art, philosophy)
When we first got together I was in a difficult time, and being with her always motivated me

We've both changed since moving here. I got preoccupied with being a 'provider' (financially, practically, emotionally), and had difficulty handling the stress of that. She became more and more materialistic, self-occupied, and expected more and more. In a sense, I think we were both disappointed that living here turned out to be such a hustle, and left us with less and less time to do what we actually loved. It also failed to live up to her childhood hype, which I somehow got the blame for, even though I've always taken her to gallery events, galas and all that. This job was her first 9–5 (ever), many of our friends have had kids and moved out of the city, and I think the future was narrowing in her mind.

I've never understood the breakups, and took no real joy in the makeups either. That rollercoaster is just one I lived with. Our therapist forbade the 'B' word, but almost every time we fought (ever) she would threaten it. The only time I *ever* have (right after DDAY), she cried for days, and I caved. Prior to this, whatever internal 'selfishness' she struggled with, she's aware of, and dislikes it. But can't seem to work it out. It was often like dealing with 2 completely different people. One meek and sweet, the other would shut you out for a week and slander me to friends if I said something in the wrong tone of voice. She'd tell me that, when we're together, she was absolutely sure in us. But if we were apart, she'd always have doubts. It was very confusing, to say the least.

Last breakup I told her she needed to go to IC so we could figure out why it was happening, which she agreed to but didn't follow through on.

@Chaparral I'm unsure the boss has a wife. Informing HR just seems like making trouble at this point, could cost her her job, etc.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Well, I was just wondering why you didn't tell his wife because I thought you wanted to break up the affair and reconcile. Same with HR. I misread the situation. When one wants to reconcile the first step is to break up the affair since the relationship is more important than any job.

I can see why you wouldn't want her back. She's another man's mistress.


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## sdoiuasd (Jan 30, 2017)

@Chaparral yes, and another man who hits on engaged women, no less. I have no doubt in my mind she's playing up the victim role to him now.
@JohnA That's also a big issue I have with living here, other than the cost of living. For all the greatness and diversity and authenticity it has, much of it seems, to me, very shallow, materialistic, self-absorbed and temporary. 

And yes, I do understand that's a lifestyle choice that's not mine to make for her. Just, before this period, we had both wanted to scale back to a smaller city, simpler life. Evidently, I was mislead.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

You're not married, right?

No kids?

GTFO of there already.


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

This is for you not to inform her. Her swinger friends are full of it. Swingers have there own code and live it strictly. Their Golden rule is everybody is in, or nobody is. Your not the first poster here who has run into predators claiming to be swingers. They knew it would harm you and still screwed you over! 

Perfect example occasion use of coke or horse. No big deal right? Would that person offer to share with someone white knuckling their way out of rehab.??? Hey, I just shared, not my fault they them went out and OD later that night. Fuik you a$$hole. Their dead because you shared. What was so important about screwing your girlfriend that they would harm you? 

Again learn from this, gain wisdom and mode onto new friends. Leave the trash out on the curb and do not try arguing with them. 180 all of them. Only speak with the mother IF she calls. 

Is WG out of your place?


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

I can't see anything positive you can gain from being with her. Your relationship has been so broken for so long that you can't even see just how broken it is. You are lucky that you never married her. Let some other guy deal with her antics and needs. You are now free and you can live easily with the fact that you gave it your best shot. You need to move on, both physically and mentally. Find a nice place in a smaller city or in the country, whatever suits your needs. 

If you find a sane woman to love, you will look back on this craziness in utter disbelief. Believe me, I know from experience. 

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

@sdoiuasd,

What are you doing for yourself? Are you looking stay in the city or start over somewhere else? Sometimes just a few changes can give you a fresh new outlook. New job, new area, new looks, new friends? Got anything on a bucket list you put aside because you thought it to be selfish? You'd be surprised how fast things can turn around when you start getting out doing things with YOU in mind. 

Best


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## sdoiuasd (Jan 30, 2017)

@JohnA Yes those friends have done that to us for 7 years (also from MN). The moment we got together they started pulling that. I don't know how many times we've told them no. It got to the point that we had stopped seeing them, but it was their 'moving away' party. 

So yes, we may have been broken before (boss was either ea or pa by that point, I don't know), and I should by all accounts be angry or glad, but I'm still just blown away how ridiculous this has been, then just to be blamed for it all on top.
@anchorwatch I haven't done much besides pour myself into work. All our finances were joint, and that was a disaster (I got stuck with every debt and bill, of course, so still recovering from that. Trying to reinvest in friendships I let slip (ones that she wrote off or was too anxious to be around, mostly), since this already took 4 people out of my life. 6 if you count her folks, who I got along amazingly with (her dad had called me "son", just a week before all this). Reconnecting with family I haven't spent enough time with. But still not out of the depression hole yet.


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

You are in the shock and numbed state, ie limbo. You will stay there until you take steps to end it. Each one you will torture yourself with "what if". Push though it by taking those steps. I gave you a link to Danny??? Thread. He sounded just like you for several weeks! Then he, while beating himself for it, openned up a seperate account, Canceled mutual credit cards, etc. 

So three yes or no questions:

Do you have separate finances at this point? 

Are you living separately? 

Do her parents know you are broken up (not why)? 

Again yes or no.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

You're in a fog. You'll need to clear it. Start doing a few things other than the daily grind and it will start to clear. Start making moves for you. Take a night for yourself. Go to a hockey game or take in a concert/show at one of the great small venues. Push yourself to do something outside your wheelhouse this weekend. Reignite your friendships. Step out of the box and make new ones. That's the way back to that confident guy you once were.


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

Sdoiuasd, I worked in manhattan from mid eighties until late nineties. My office was on 53rd and 5th. I know the people. Most of them are like your ex's sister. They are vampires. Shyting on each other non-stop. But you can find good one's. @anchorwatch is an old timer. You are in the fog. Right now you need mentors. There ave been times in my life I have been very adrift, I got out by asking myself who do I want to be. Who do I know who is that. I listen and put aside my doubts telling myself "your lost to myself, screw it just do what they say for now but yourself on auto pilot!". I listened to guys like anchor and got out alive. 

There is no getting out of your situation without a lot of pain, period. Pick who you want to be. Be a good guy, not a nice guy. The difference, good guys can say no, and just walk away. They never enable!!! It took my several decades to realize all the people I respected had a core that was iron. They where the most friendly, outgoing, helpful people you could know, but they could say, stop now. They could say no and walk away doing the 180.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

sdoiuasd said:


> [MENTION=199346]
> We've both changed since moving here. I got preoccupied with being a 'provider' (financially, practically, emotionally), and had difficulty handling the stress of that. She became more and more materialistic, self-occupied, and expected more and more. In a sense, I think we were both disappointed that living here turned out to be such a hustle, and left us with less and less time to do what we actually loved. It also failed to live up to her childhood hype, which I somehow got the blame for, even though I've always taken her to gallery events, galas and all that. This job was her first 9–5 (ever), many of our friends have had kids and moved out of the city, and I think the future was narrowing in her mind.


Sounds like you had found one with all the options you were looking for before the move. But now she's changed gears. Do you think she has enough interest in you to restore those qualities? Take my word that the restoration will be because she thinks you're worth it; not because you think she's worth it (an error many many men make). If it were me, and I was interested in reconciliation, I'd move out of the Big Apple, which you don't like anyway, and see if she follows. If she doesn't, the writing is on the wall my man.
I hate to tell you this Dawg, but your pandering to her is not sexy and obviously not working. You ain't no challenge when all she has to do is whistle for you to come running.


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

Wow, you are so young, yet you have lived such a roller coaster of a relationship.

I know you're in so much pain. I'm sorry you're in this situation. 

Please know I mean absolutely no offense, but has your ex been diagnosed with a personality disorder? Bipolar perhaps? Her mood swings are alarming. And the almost constant breakups and makeups would be maddening and confusing.

Not that it matters now anyway. Listen, she's a 2 time cheater already at her tender age. This will not bode well for your future. If you take her back she'll know she can get away with anything.

There are plenty of hot artist types out there if that's what you're attracted to. Hell, theres lots of everything waiting for you.

Start fresh with the new year. Don't try to woo her back. If this has happened while the both of you are still so young, man, have you got a life of torture in store for you.

Find someone who is mentally stable and who will be loyal to you. 

No kids, and you're not married. Easy peasy! I know it doesnt feel like it, but let me tell you in no uncertain terms-you dodged a big ol bullet. 

Don't go back. You'll regret it. Go no contact and live your life without the crazy.

Life and love shouldn't be this hard. Especially at your age! You've known far too much strife already.

Good luck.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

[
*@becareful2 In my (limited) defense, we had never fought like this before. It had been about 3 years from the last breakup, and even those were pretty mild arguments. Many of them only lasted a couple days. I don't know if I'm dealing with a personality disorder or not, she would usually come back for some kind of safety (sick, lonely, Hurricane Sandy, whatever), stating how I was the only one who ever cared about her, etc., and yeah, bad moves on my part. But she's plays the role of victim remarkably well once she finally crashes. Then would follow great times, then she'd get depressed about her job/ us/ body/ place in life/ friends/ whatever she didn't have/ anything. She'd start getting clingy and jealous and blame me for everything (would rage even if she just woke up late, which is not my problem), and the cycle would start again. The good times were great, but she couldn't seem to enjoy normal, stable life for more than a few months.

Whoever stated I don't know what normal is anymore couldn't be more right. It's only when I explain the last months to others do I start to see how bizarre everything was.[/QUOTE]*

Sounds like some sort of BPD going on here to have those kinds of highs and lows. You yourself come from a background where you had to be an empath or an emotional caretaker with your mother and all. Can see the attraction and how you ended up 'taking care' of the fiance. Time to move on. It will not get better


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

Vulcan2013 said:


> Can't believe no one has suggested yet, but you need to read No More Mr. Nice Guy. Today. Then Married Man Sex Life Primer. Hit the gym, lift weights cut body fat, and cut off all contact with your ex. Ghost her for your own sanity.


 At least two posts before this one, in which "No More Mr. Nice Guy" was recommended. 



Yeah, he's being nice - so many of us are.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

"Swinger friends assured her she had done nothing wrong, said I was "crazy" to be upset. "

As stated by an JohnA, those are not real swingers. Open relationship, yeah. But those people were bad. Real swingers / respect and require a good level of trust. And to screw your then-girl friend behind your back, they didn't care. They wanted HER, then move out. Predators do this kind of thing... and asking you for years and years... really?

My wife and I are still friends with people who are swingers/Poly/etc. They DON'T ask or pester us to have sex with them (We have in the past) - they are REAL friends.

Cut your ties to that woman. New accounts, etc... move out.

What are your plans - moving forward? And feel free ask advice from others here. Depending on how fast you can heal, it may take you 2~4 years to truly fall in love with someone else.


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## eric1 (Apr 10, 2015)

sdoiuasd said:


> @Chaparral yes, and another man who hits on engaged women, no less. I have no doubt in my mind she's playing up the victim role to him now.
> @JohnA That's also a big issue I have with living here, other than the cost of living. For all the greatness and diversity and authenticity it has, much of it seems, to me, very shallow, materialistic, self-absorbed and temporary.
> 
> And yes, I do understand that's a lifestyle choice that's not mine to make for her. Just, before this period, we had both wanted to scale back to a smaller city, simpler life. Evidently, I was mislead.




That's exactly why I moved out. Imagine having kids brought up expecting a new BMW every birthday ?


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

sdoiuasd said:


> I've been with my fiancee (*both 29, no kids*) for nearly 7 years, were friends for 3 years before that.












So what if you've spent 7 years with her? You're still young! Sounds like she may be bi-polar and has just way too many issues. Get rid of her now and thank yourself for dodging a bullet!


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

sdoiuasd said:


> I don't know if I'm dealing with a personality disorder or not.


Sdoiuasd, none of us here at TAM can tell you whether your fiancee has a full-blown PD. I nonetheless agree with @*Aine* that you are describing many _warning signs_ for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). Specifically, the irrational anger, controlling behavior, easily triggered temper tantrums, lack of impulse control, black-white thinking, always being "The Victim," and rapid flips between Jekyll (adoring you) and Hyde (devaluing you) -- are classic warning signs for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). I'm not suggesting your fiance has full-blown BPD but, rather, that she may exhibit strong traits of it.

I caution that BPD is not something -- like chickenpox -- that a person either "has" or "doesn't have." Instead, it is a spectrum disorder, which means every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all BPD traits to some degree (albeit at a low level if the person is healthy). At issue, then, is not whether your fiancee exhibits BPD traits. Of course she does. We all do. 

Rather, at issue is whether she exhibits those traits at a strong and persistent level (i.e., is on the upper end of the BPD spectrum). Not having met her, I cannot answer that question. I nonetheless believe you can spot any strong BPD warning signs that are present if you take a little time to learn which behaviors are on the list. They are easy to spot -- especially after you've been dating for 7 years -- because there is nothing subtle about behaviors such as always being "The Victim," lack of impulse control, and rapid event-triggered mood flips.



> She has like, DEEP trust issues, thinks that people are out to get/ humiliate her.


_"Having stress-related paranoid thoughts"_ is one of the 9 defining traits for BPD. See 9 BPD Traits at NIMH. BPDers (i.e., those with strong traits) are unable to regulate their own emotions and thus experience intense feelings far more frequently than other people. Those feelings are so strong that they distort a BPDer's perception of other peoples' intentions and motivations. The result is that a BPDer is incapable of trusting anyone close to her for an extended period of time. 



> There was cocaine.... the night ended with my fiancee sleeping with my best friend


Another one of the 9 defining traits is _"Impulsive and often dangerous behaviors, such as spending sprees, unsafe sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, and binge eating."_



> She cried saying... that she feels she *has a "void" within her* (not the first time I have heard this).


_"Chronic feelings of emptiness"_ is one of the nine defining traits for BPD. Because a BPDer lacks a strong self identity, she oftentimes will feel directionless and a lack of purpose. BPDers therefore tend to try to fill up that emptiness by creating drama in their personal relationships.



> It was often like dealing with *2 completely different people*. One meek and sweet, the other would shut you out for a week and slander me to friends if I said something in the wrong tone of voice.


Another one of the 9 defining traits is _"A pattern of intense and unstable relationships with family, friends, and loved ones, often swinging from extreme closeness and love (idealization) to extreme dislike or anger (devaluation)."_ This is why it is common for the abused partners to say they felt like they were living with two different people.



> Even days before she left she cried saying to "never give up on me, no matter what I say or do".


_"Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment"_ is one of the 9 defining traits. Indeed, a BPDer's fear of abandonment can grow so large and painful that she may preemptively abandon her partner to avoid the unbearable pain of being abandoned by him.



> [She has] self-image issues.


_"Distorted and unstable self-image or sense of self"_ is one of the 9 defining traits for BPD. Because a BPDer's emotional development typically stopped at age 4, she never had the opportunity in childhood to develop an integrated self image. Because BPDers have a weak fragile sense of who they are, they are attracted to partners who have a strong stable personality and thus are able to provide the missing self identity. 



> She has a great fear of control, though I see myself as very permissive.


Although a BPDer is strongly attracted to a person who can provide the missing self identity and who can help to center and ground her, she will start to resent you when you do exactly that (provide the identity she so sorely needs). The reason is that, absent a strong sense of identity, she has virtually no personal boundaries -- i.e., no sense of where her needs/desires stop and yours begin. 

This means that, whenever you are intimate with her, she will start feeling like you are dominating and controlling her. That is, she becomes so enmeshed with her partner that she gets the frightening feeling of losing herself into his strong personality -- sometimes feeling like she is evaporating into thin air. 

This is why it is common, following an intimate evening or a great weekend spent together, a BPDer will create a fight to push her partner away -- giving her breathing space and relief from this great fear of engulfment. The result is that a BPDer will frequently start fights -- over absolutely nothing -- to push you away and then will later start love bombing to pull you back. This is why the #2 best-selling BPD book is titled, _I Hate You, Don't Leave Me!_



> I've never understood the breakups.... *about 7 breakups/makeups* in as many years.


Sdoiuasd, BPDer relationships are notorious for having multiple breakups. A BPDfamily survey of about 460 such relationships found that nearly a fourth of them (23%) went through 10 or more complete breakup/makeup cycles BEFORE finally ending for good. About 40% of the BPDer relationships -- like your relationship -- experienced at least six breakup/makeup cycles before ending. And 73% had three or more breakup/makeup cycles before finally ending. See "Results" at BPDfamily Breakup/Makeup Poll. 



> She gives up on friendships easily.


If your fiancee is a BPDer, that is to be expected because BPDers typically don't have any long-term close friends (unless the person lives a long distance away). The reason, as noted above, is that a BPDer frequently experiences intense feelings that distort her perceptions of other peoples' intentions and motivations. The result is that she eventually will push people away if they make the mistake of trying to be a close friend.



> She is, at most times, a *genuinely sweet*, if fragile person.


Most BPDers are high functioning people who are well intentioned and genuinely caring. Moreover, they tend to exhibit a vulnerability and purity of emotional expression that otherwise is seen only in young children. These qualities can make BPDers very easy to fall in love with. 

Indeed, two of the world's most beloved women -- Marilyn Monroe and Princess Diana -- both had full-blown BPD if their biographers are correct. Simply stated, a BPDer's problem is not being _bad_ but, rather, _emotionally unstable_. 



> It came as a relief after *thinking I was crazy*.


If you really have been living with a BPDer for 7 years, _"going crazy"_ is exactly how you should be feeling much of the time. Because BPDers typically are convinced that the absurd allegations coming out of their mouths are absolutely true -- they generally have a greater "crazy-making" effect than can ever be achieved by narcissists or sociopaths. 

This is why that, of the 157 mental disorders listed in the APA's diagnostic manual, BPD is the _one most notorious _for making the abused partners feel like they may be losing their minds. And this is largely why therapists typically see far more of those abused partners -- coming in to find out if they are going insane -- than they ever see of the BPDers themselves.

Nothing will drive you crazier sooner than being repeatedly abused by a partner whom you know, to a certainty, must really love you. The reason is that you will be mistakenly convinced that, if only you can figure out what YOU are doing wrong, you can restore your partner to that wonderful human being you saw at the very beginning. 



> What the hell even happened?


I suspect you will gain insight into what happened by reading about BPD red flags. Significantly, learning to spot these warning signs will not enable you to diagnose your fiancee's issues. Yet, like learning warning signs for stroke and heart attack, learning those for BPD may help you avoid a very painful situation -- e.g., avoid returning to this toxic relationship or, if you do decide to leave her, avoid running into the arms of another woman just like her.

An easy place to start reading is my list of _*18 BPD Warning Signs*_. If most sound very familiar, I would suggest you read my more detailed description of them at my posts in _*Maybe's Thread*_. If that description rings many bells, I would be glad to join @*Aine*, @*JohnA*, and the other respondents in discussing them with you. Take care, Sdoiuasd.


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## sdoiuasd (Jan 30, 2017)

@JohnA Many thanks, I do very much feel 'in a fog'. Two steps forward, one step back. And it's true, I am lacking in self-respect from this. First dday knocked me off my feet, second felt like it nearly killed me. I should have come here much earlier, if for nothing else than to learn to stand up for myself in this situation.

@lucy999 ,  @aine and @Uptown , It isn't the first time BPD or Bipolar has come up, and our couples therapist recognized a pattern in that my mother has bipolar. I am hesitant to lay it all on that, obviously people make their own decisions regardless, but it does line up. Maybe's thread was chillingly similar. A few years into dating (2 breakups/ makeups at that point) she had started seeing a cognitive behavioral therapist, who flatly said the cycle would keep happening without her doing CBT/ DBT. Oftentimes she would act out or act selfishly and, when confronted, she genuinely just didn't realize it. The fear of engulfment thing is very real. When we got engaged we had talked about it beforehand for weeks. When I finally proposed she ran away for two weeks. If we made it through a hard time and started getting closer, I could instantly feel her become distant. She'd withdraw for weeks and wouldn't let me touch her, I affectionately called it "feeling prickly". She's been aware of "something wrong" in her for a long time, and has told me that, in those words, and has asked time and time again for boundaries of some kind. And there were *definitely* triggers, certain topics or just a tone of voice. I just tried to live around it, but that's hard to do without either A) risk a blowout if I did set a boundary, or B) enabling it, as you say. Even asking that she check in if she was going to be out late was an impossibility. After 7 years. And up till the night with the friend, I hadn't heard her apologize once. Even that took 3 weeks to come. 

Throughout the infidelity wreck (6 months of hell), there were maybe 8 or more "breakups", lasting 20 minutes to a day at most. There was always a push and pull. Even went so far as to say this was a test to see if I'd leave her. Once that had largely settled, and we were starting to be close again I did put my foot down and said plainly, I would not do this anymore unless she would get help to figure out why she does it. She agreed, but didn't follow through.

The final straw, for her was this: She went to her sister's for lunch. Around 10pm I call, no response. Around 11pm I get an email (her account, we went "transparent" as per our therapist's instruction) with a ticket to Cuba for 5 days (a birthday trip with her sister), which we could not afford. She comes home at about 1am, and I am obviously pissed. She cried and cried, saying it was just a stupid drunken purchase, that her sister pushed her into it, that she'll cancel it, that I'm the most patient guy ever. I stayed calm and said fine, thanked her for realizing it was crossing a boundary, and told her not to turn this against me somehow in 2-3 days, as is what always happens. Well, 2-3 days go, she ropes her sister back into our private life (something our therapist had specifically called manipulation), then I'm back to being painted as some controlling monster, because we gave each other access to our email (which of course she left out in the rant to her sister) and that I wouldn't "let" her go on a trip, which we could not afford. Shortly after this, she left.

Beyond love, understanding her ups and downs (and hoping she would as well, for longer than a day) is kind of the only reason I could stick it through as long as I did. I honestly believe the affair happened because she was depressed, and isn't used to men hitting on her, and that is in no way a reflection on me or our relationship, which was loving and stable, for the longest it ever had been. I had thought we finally did away with the drama and were settling down. And that alone maybe, we could have worked through, but she'd blow up at me if I suspected, so I couldn't bring him up, even in therapy. I still just can't wrap my head around the deception. Rollercoaster aside, we were always the "cute couple". And yes, a lot of these behaviors existed throughout our relationship, but I have never seen her be so monstrous.

And for all the wreckage she's caused, it's still conflicting to me. I understand I should have ended things much earlier. But the "other" side kept me in. When you have the same person who's hurting you dig their face into your chest, crying "if you won't love me, who will?", it's hard to do anything.

At this point I don't know what my goal is yet, I'm still way off center, and any contact sets me back. Through friends I've heard she's no longer at the job where OM works, and evidently that is over. I'm making no efforts to woo her, and she still won't see me, even to pick up left belongings or a W2. First contact in 3 weeks today, since she needs the W2, which means I'll probably end up seeing or talking with her. And she still seems very much enraged with me, even by my doing nothing.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

OP,

Have you ever watched the movie "Sophie's Choice"? 

Not to that extreme, but I see your relationship being similar to Nathan and Sophie (she's Nathan and you're Sophie). He was crazy (probably bipolar), but most of the time he was irresistibly charming and loving - in between his bouts of paranoia and rage; but she always took him back when he begged her. It didn't turn out well for Sophie.

Your fiance may not be violent, but you are letting her destroy you emotionally.

When she comes begging you back, and I predict she will; don't give her the time of day.

Move on; and get some counseling for your co-dependence.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

sdoiuasd said:


> I honestly believe the affair happened because she was depressed, and isn't used to men hitting on her, and that is in no way a reflection on me or our relationship, which was loving and stable, for the longest it ever had been.


You don't really believe that, do you Dawg. At first glance, it seems to me you're telling yourself that because it behooves you to believe, "is in no way a reflection on me (you) or our (your) relationship, which was loving and stable." When you get a little older and more experience under your belt dealing with women, you'll know its inconsistent with reality that her activities are no reflection on you or your relationship. Ask some other women about her intentions or inclinations behind her behavior.
Something else to think about. You know your a beta, as opposed to an alpha, when you're intimidated by someone calling you "controlling". They are testing your limits and you're caving. The proper answer is, "call it what you wish but I told you what I'd do, how far I'll go, et cetera."


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

Her sister will always be her sister. They will always band against you.
She will have another affair if a man gives her attention.
"Who will love her if you don't"? No one with an ounce of common sense. Or maybe someone who is addicted to unending drama or enjoys pain.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

sdoiuasd said:


> And for all the wreckage she's caused, it's still conflicting to me. I understand I should have ended things much earlier. But the "other" side kept me in. When you have the same person who's hurting you dig their face into your chest, crying *"if you won't love me, who will?", it's hard to do anything*.


Ahh, we've noticed this type of guy, you have the classic Knight In Shining Armor (KISA) syndrome we talk about here. You're very easily manipulated by tears, and feel that you have to protect her and fix her.

You need to accept the fact that she is broken and that YOU do not have the tools to fix her, she has to find professional help to fix herself. If you don't dump your KISA attitude with her, then all you have to look forwards with her is years of cheating, emotional abuse, and manipulation. She's shown you what she is, if you don't end the relationship now before any kids come into the picture, then it's a hell of your OWN making.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

badmemory said:


> Move on; and get some counseling for your co-dependence.


Agreed. This has codependency written all over it. He needs to seek help himself. When OM gets tired of banging her and dealing with her issues, she may just come running back to what she knows as a safe, dependable provider who will accept her back and deal with her crap.


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

So lets talk about first dates: I always got a yes tona Sunday brunch where we would meet there and left separately. Very safe date from woman's point of view.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

sdoiuasd said:


> It isn't the first time BPD or Bipolar has come up, and our couples therapist recognized a pattern in that my mother has bipolar.


Sdoiuasd, as I noted above, the behaviors you describe here are warning signs for BPD, not for bipolar. Although both of those disorders produce emotional instability, the behavioral symptoms are different in many respects. If you're interested, I describe the differences I've seen between typical bipolar behavior (e.g., my foster son) and BPD behavior (e.g., my exW) at 12 Bipolar/BPD Differences. 

Please keep in mind that, even if your fiancee does have strong BPD traits, that does not rule out her also having bipolar too. A recent study found that 33% of female BPDers also suffer from bipolar-1 and 9% of female BPDers also have bipolar-2. See Table 3 at 2008 Study in JCP.



> She had started seeing a cognitive behavioral therapist, who flatly said the cycle would keep happening without her doing CBT/ DBT.


If your fiancee really does suffer from BPD, it is unlikely her therapist will tell her -- much less tell you -- the name of the disorder. It generally is not in the best interests of a high functioning BPDer to be told. If you're interested, I discuss the reasons for this withholding of information at Loath to Diagnose. 

Hence, when BPD is a strong possibility, your best chance of obtaining a candid professional opinion is to see a psychologist who has never treated or seen your fiancee. That way, you are assured that he is ethically bound to protect only YOUR best interests, not hers.



> The fear of engulfment thing is very real.


This fear is a characteristic of BPD behavior, not bipolar. By itself, this engulfment fear might be manageable in a R/S if you were to simply back away from your fiancee, giving her breathing space for a while. 

If she is a BPDer, however, that back-off remedy is not a feasible solution. The reason is that a BPDer has two great fears -- abandonment and engulfment -- that lie at opposite ends of the _very same_ spectrum. This means you are always in a lose/lose situation because, as you back away from one fear to avoid triggering it, you will start triggering the fear at the other end of that same spectrum. You simply cannot back away from one fear without drawing closer to the other.

Hence, as you move close to a BPDer to comfort her and assure her of your love, you will start triggering her _engulfment_ fear, making her feel like she's being suffocated and controlled by you. Yet, as you back away to give her breathing space, you will find that you've started triggering her _abandonment_ fear. 

Sadly, there is no midpoints solution (between "too close" and "too far away") where you can safely stand to avoid triggering the two fears. I know because I foolishly spent 15 years searching for that Goldilocks position, which simply does not exist. 



> After 7 years. And up till the night with the friend, I hadn't heard her apologize once.


If she is a BPDer, that is to be expected. A BPDer carries enormous shame and self loathing from early childhood. Hence, the last thing she wants to find is one more flaw or mistake to add to the long list of things she hates about herself.

Moreover, when a BPDer consciously realizes she has made a mistake, she does not think of herself as an essentially good person who occasionally does bad things. She is too emotionally immature to think in those terms because she never had the opportunity in early childhood to integrate the good and bad aspects of her own personality. 

Instead, she categorizes everyone -- including herself -- as "all good" or "all bad." And she can recategorize a person (including herself) from one polar extreme to the other, in just ten seconds, based solely on a minor mistake (real or imagined). A BPDer therefore tends to think of herself as "all bad" when she consciously recognizes that she did something wrong. 

This is why a BPDer's subconscious mind works 24/7 to keep her conscious mind from seeing too much of reality. It accomplishes this by projecting all hurtful feelings and bad thoughts onto her partner. Because this projection occurs entirely at the subconscious level, the BPDers is truly convinced -- at the conscious level -- that those painful thoughts and feelings are coming from her partner.



> When you have the same person who's hurting you dig their face into your chest, crying "if you won't love me, who will?", it's hard to do anything.


BPDers exhibit an emotional purity and vulnerability that otherwise is seen only in young children. Hence, if your fiancee really is a BPDer, walking away -- and staying away -- will be extremely painful for you. It will feel like you have abandoned a sick, vulnerable, young child. 

Yet, if you want to remain with her, the only way that is possible is if you continue enabling her childish actions and bad decisions. In that way, your continued presence in the R/S with a BPDer is harmful to her. It destroys her opportunities to have to confront her own issues and learn how to manage them by acquiring more emotional skills.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

That was a long way of saying that she's batsh!t crazy.


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## sdoiuasd (Jan 30, 2017)

@Uptown Right, I have looked into the differences, but I came from a (very) broken home with a stoic, hard-working (if codependent) father, and a very unstable mother. I was placed in the middle of the long custody battle for 15 years, so I get that struggle seems like home.

Her therapist didn't put a name to it*–*rather just said that the cycle would keep repeating itself (with me or anyone else), should she not tackle core issues. Our couples therapist reflected the same sentiment, but added mine to the mix. 

The engulfment thing I had grown accustomed to, and tried to work around. Pressure from family to finally get married and have kids (2 years engaged) added to this. But you're right, it was a lose-lose scenario. She's been chronically depressed from way before we started dating, and nothing I did could change that. What started this landslide was my work finally let up enough for me to start to live my own life again. I began taking cycling trips, hiking, and doing my own thing, not without her explicitly, but encouraging her to take new hobbies and nourish friendships. She was convinced everyone hated her because they wouldn't answer a text sometimes. 

The abandonement thing too. The crazy coke-night, I came in from my cigarette and walked in on what was still going on. Of course, I said we were through, toast. Days later, she said she had kicked me out and stayed the night because I said this.

I would like to add, that before this mess (I had never expected or known how to deal with infidelity) I have been anything but 'beta', throughout. I lead our lives because there wasn't really another option, things had to get done. Detach and leave her to solve her depression alone I'd be 'neglectful', encourage her to do anything but stay at home and I'd be 'controlling', take charge and I'd be 'misogynist'. So I did my best to stay in the middle, For 3 of the last 5 years I'd been working 7 days a week, so I honestly didn't even notice a pattern, and I'd always been strong in myself and my friendships. I couldn't confirm the boss relationship until later. Since, I'd done my best to enforce boundaries and expectations, *not* enable (MC, leave the job, recommit, pull her weight, take responsibility for her life), which she'd accept, but eventually would blow up in my face. 

Finally, after the boss came to light I changed the locks and had my accounts and finances transferred, and I became ******* #1 in her mind.

But yes, I will admit, if I see her, and she's weak, I'm pretty much done in. She's a strange and addicting person, and I myself don't love easily, and have my own baggage. Most times, it seemed we fit perfectly, in some weird way.


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## sdoiuasd (Jan 30, 2017)

And I mean, yes, I even got blamed and mistreated sometimes for how I treated her in a dream, so I'll admit, I didn't really know what I was dealing with.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

sdoiuasd said:


> And I mean, yes, I even got blamed and mistreated sometimes for how I treated her in a dream, so I'll admit, I didn't really know what I was dealing with.


sdo, how are your living arrangements now? Have you actually separated? Make sure you do.
The reason for your weakness for her is to do with your past, you are a people pleaser and due to the volatility of your upbringing want to keep the peace.

I would suggest you separate, get IC (you need more so that you will neer be treated like this by anyone never mind your STBXF) and work on yourself. Your STBXF needs to do the same thing for herself, but I really think you deserve much much better. And it is waiting for you out there.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

sdoiuasd said:


> [MENTION=11945]
> I would like to add, that before this mess (I had never expected or known how to deal with infidelity) I have been anything but 'beta', throughout. I lead our lives because there wasn't really another option, things had to get done. Detach and leave her to solve her depression alone I'd be 'neglectful', encourage her to do anything but stay at home and I'd be 'controlling', take charge and I'd be 'misogynist'. So I did my best to stay in the middle, For 3 of the last 5 years I'd been working 7 days a week, so I honestly didn't even notice a pattern, and I'd always been strong in myself and my friendships. I couldn't confirm the boss relationship until later. Since, I'd done my best to enforce boundaries and expectations, *not* enable (MC, leave the job, recommit, pull her weight, take responsibility for her life), which she'd accept, but eventually would blow up in my face.


Why did you stay with someone like that for so long? Walking on eggshells on a regular basis to avoid upsetting her is not a relationship.



sdoiuasd said:


> [MENTION=11945]
> Finally, after the boss came to light I changed the locks and had my accounts and finances transferred, and I became ******* #1 in her mind.
> 
> But yes, I will admit, if I see her, and she's weak, I'm pretty much done in. She's a strange and addicting person, and I myself don't love easily, and have my own baggage. Most times, it seemed we fit perfectly, in some weird way.


If she has any more personal property, she can arrange to have a third party pick them up from you. When you move on to a more normal relationship and look back on this one, you will be kicking yourself in the butt and wonder what you ever saw in her. She's broken and will always be broken unless she seeks professional help.


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## sdoiuasd (Jan 30, 2017)

@aine yes we're seperated. She moved in with her sister and I kept our apartment and our dog. She'd likely have taken that (rent stabilized) but she can't afford it on her own. 
@lordmayhem As of today, I don't know, really. It wasn't always this bad, there were a lot of beautiful and happy times. A lot of it stems from her identifying herself through other people. Before me, she had a ten-year long friend that much managed her social life, pretty much fed her. But she wrote her off years ago, over something ridiculous. Before that, her sister. Then me, now back to the sister. If there were other people around (we lived in a big communal loft for the first few years here, with a private studio apartment inside), a lot of that sadness and mistrust went elsewhere. Only after living just ourselves did it start to really fall on me. And yes, it may be some Knight-In-Shining-Armor codependence thing, but I did genuinely care for her, and it's hard to see someone in pain without doing something about it. I thought somehow, at some point she'd finally trust me, us.

But I've not been perfect. 3 years ago, a former employer demanded I be on call for him pretty much 24/7, and he was straight-up psychotic, abusive, made my life hell. He ended up killing himself a few months ago. That invited a lot of stress and drama into our lives I could never live down. But at the time, I was the only one employed. I'd also started to have some anger over time and can be pretty imposing when I need to be. But rarely, if ever toward her, not till this all happened. Even after the friend thing I took the worst out on him. Still, I've said or done plenty of careless, hurtful things. I would get hell for them years later. So I was pretty firmly convinced that everything bad that happened was my fault. 

Trying to make ends meet and keep a roof over our heads has always been a struggle. But things were settling down, she finally had a real job, I finally had a decent salary. Thought we were in the clear.

When I finally did have enough and said she needed therapy, that I wanted to move, is where things really went south. Even though she agreed with me on all counts that her behavior is irregular and we had no financial future here. To her, being a 'New Yorker', even if we're living paycheck-to-paycheck at age 30, is worth it just as some weird recognition. Say I don't like it here it's like I'm insulting her. Take that away it's like taking a limb. 

Saying this now I do feel some relief.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

sdoiuasd said:


> @Uptown Right, I have looked into the differences, but I came from a (very) broken home with a stoic, hard-working (if codependent) father, and *a very unstable mother.* I was placed in the middle of the long custody battle for 15 years, so I get that struggle seems like home.
> 
> 
> But yes, I will admit, if I see her, and she's weak, I'm pretty much done in. She's *a strange and addicting person*, and I myself don't love easily, and have my own baggage. Most times, it seemed we fit perfectly, in some weird way.


Two points:

1) I bolded the parts that I want you to study. Your fiancee said she wanted someone more stable than you. She is "unknowingly" projecting. She is unstable, is a drug user, living a fantasy, is a Neptunian.

2) Your mother was also very unstable, probably suffered with some of the same problems as your Ex Fiancee. Both lived with you. The fourth House for you is your soft underbelly, where harm can arise.

3) *Your home is a magnet or focal point for this type of personality,* this type of psychological incursion. Now that you are old enough to determine who comes into your life and eventually *your home,* you need to retune your lady Picker. Do not subconsciously or consciously pick another women who has all the right qualities in your mind but not in reality. Do not be a martyr, or a Knight in Shining Armor to any more women. This is your Achilles heel, This nebulous and wishful thinking strikes you at the hearth, to get at your heart.

Watch out for strange stomach ailments. Digestive problems.


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## commonsenseisn't (Aug 13, 2014)

The OP is a fine description of what it's like to ride the crazy train. What's it gonna take to make a guy step off the train?


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

sdoiuasd said:


> @aine yes we're seperated. She moved in with her sister and I kept our apartment and our dog. She'd likely have taken that (rent stabilized) but she can't afford it on her own.
> 
> @lordmayhem As of today, I don't know, really. It wasn't always this bad, there were a lot of beautiful and happy times. A lot of it stems from her identifying herself through other people. Before me, she had a ten-year long friend that much managed her social life, pretty much fed her. But she wrote her off years ago, over something ridiculous. Before that, her sister. Then me, now back to the sister. If there were other people around (we lived in a big communal loft for the first few years here, with a private studio apartment inside), a lot of that sadness and mistrust went elsewhere. Only after living just ourselves did it start to really fall on me. And yes, it may be some Knight-In-Shining-Armor codependence thing, but I did genuinely care for her, and it's hard to see someone in pain without doing something about it. I thought somehow, at some point she'd finally trust me, us.
> 
> ...


You show every symptom of an abused person with severe PTSD. 

My advice is to get into PTSD counseling, grief counseling and codependency counseling and every other kind of counseling you can afford. You have a lot of work to do on yourself.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

commonsenseisn't said:


> The OP is a fine description of what it's like to ride the crazy train. What's it gonna take to make a guy step off the train?


Sometimes he needs to be pushed.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

commonsenseisn't said:


> The OP is a fine description of what it's like to ride the crazy train. What's it gonna take to make a guy step off the train?


Some people like the drama for some reason.:scratchhead:


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## sdoiuasd (Jan 30, 2017)

I don't know. I of course, can't explain it. I did not like the drama, I had plenty of that outside the R. I could never figure it out. I've lost track of the amount of times she's decided she didn't love me anymore. I did everything I could to stabilize us/ minimize the rollercoaster. It worked for awhile, anyway, then blew up spectacularly.

After the thing with who was my best friend, everyone involved kept the extent of it hidden. When I asked they leave us alone to figure our **** out, the wife-of-swinger-couple (who had started the damn thing, and was the one who re-instigated it after I left) and best friend laid into me, for days, with all the worst insults and trying to turn my ex against me. I was destroyed at the time so I tried to hold on to the one person I had left.

I'm still a total wreck, and I can't understand why. Before this I was strong, assured in myself, in great shape, and downright cheerful. Feel like a husk, and I hate that.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

sdoiuasd said:


> I've lost track of the amount of times she's decided she didn't love me anymore.... I'm still a total wreck, and I can't understand why.


As I noted earlier (post #69), feeling like _"a total wreck"_ and like you're _"going crazy"_ is exactly how you should be feeling if you've been dating a woman with strong BPD traits for seven years -- as you seem to now suspect. Of the 157 mental disorders listed in the APA's diagnostic manual, BPD is the _one most notorious _for making the abused partners feel like they may be losing their minds.


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

Just one point - fear, unchecked, that leads to lack of trust - is the most difficult personality issue to solve - and the most difficult to live with.

I don't know if SHE could do any better, but you sure can.

My wife is similar to your GF - any change and she runs and hides - but your GF seems 10X worse. The only reason it went on as long as it did before I realized it is that just after getting married, the economy tanked and we both had to get immersed in work to stay afloat - so, for many years, we just flat out had no time together, and thus, I didn't see all the clues. And I still didn't see it for what it was. She means well, but her fears rule her. And - someone who fears "control"? Does so because she NEEDS to feel in control. In a healthy relationship, NOBODY is in control, and the word need not even be uttered.

And so now, I am facing my own fears based on not being a particularly good socializer...I can be alone without being lonely, but I so much prefer a regular partner...but hey, I don't even have that, so what am I waiting for?

Don't let yourself become me.

dd


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

SD, if I recollect you said you didn't even like NYC. My guess is the reason you keep hanging around and being slapped around by these memories is that you hope she'll roll your way again. Am I right?


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## sdoiuasd (Jan 30, 2017)

@DustyDog right, spot on. The trouble was that, even if I (strongly) encouraged her to do whatever she wanted (go shopping, go out with friends, take up yoga, whatever) she just wouldn't. Then whenever someone invited her out she'd act like I'd been keeping her under a rock or something, rebel, and lash out. The fear thing I don't get, I always just wrote it off as 'cautious'. Could never make her happy.

@VladDracul at present it's more practicality than anything. I don't have the means to leave yet, was not preparing for this and it's cost a lot of money (joint finances, result of breakup/makeup #4, to feel like a 'team', never again). But yeah, sure, there is some part of me clinging to simpler days, if they ever did exist.

But I don't know. Much of last year I completely burned myself out with work (also had Lyme disease at the time) while she was home depressed, job searching. I'm sure I wasn't great fun to be around, pretty much just came home and collapsed. Not that it was total darkness or anything, we had plenty of fun. And she was supportive in this time (or just dependent), till she met 'the boss'. Hard I guess. Still.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

OP, the majority of all the bad things that have happened are a direct correlation to your poor choice in people you associate with. 

Your wife being the first. Sorry my man, but this woman you love is morally bankrupt. It's the only way I can put it to you. You defend her and defend her. What has she done that is even remotely defendable? 

I think her assault story is a crock of ****. 

You mentioned being tormented by a swinger lady. Why are you even in the same geography of such a creature? 

You need to get out of there, away from her, away from the scum and the sludge of that social circle you are in. Your life will not change until you do.

{Moderator Note: I spelled out the profanity. Please follow forum rules in regards to the profanity filter.

8. Filter Bypass/Obscenity: A profanity filter is in place and any attempts to bypass it are forbidden. You MAY type words that are filtered, as long as they are not abusive towards other quests or violate any other rules; however, you must allow the filter to do its job. Do NOT try to filter the word yourself and do not try to use creative spelling to bypass the profanity filter. Also, posting images of videos of obscene gestures, linking to obscene web sites, posting obscene or graphic descriptions of a decidedly adult nature, and violating a standard of decent behavior is not allowed.

February 21st is the deadline for full enforcement of the measure.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

Whatever you "thought" you had with her was a fantasy. Wishful thinking. It is what you felt, but she did not feel the same.

The fear of loosing your fantasy is ridiculous. You cannot loose something you never really had. 

Sure you had some fun with her and some good times. But it takes working through the bad times as a united team to make a relationship work and make it real. You never had that, did you?


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## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

Think about the loons calling as dusk rolls across the lake. You know, that magical time when the wind dies down, the lake becomes like glass, and a fish here & there jump, creating ripples spreading out across the lake. Think about setting a well stocked cooler and bait bucket in your boat & heading out to do some night walleye fishing.

Then your new gf, reminds you to bring a extra blanket so her legs don't get cold while you BOTH are out hunting old mooneyes. You know,the new gf that hasn't cheated on you, treated you like crap, and LIKES spending time in MN with you!

Your current gf wants you to MAKE her happy, and buddy, there ain't no way in [email protected] you can.


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