# Is it ok for husbands to watch porn magazines?



## Pame (Apr 23, 2013)

So we just been married for 3 months (not a long time to think he needs "something" new) plus we were in a long distance relation ship for more than a year, so I was thinking he would not have eyes for other women . He is 28 and I'm 24. 
2 months ago I opened his ipad and saw picts of "legal teens" which pissed me off. It made me feel like I was not enough for him, (I don not have a great self esteem, that he needs another type of visual stimulation. 
I told him how I feel about this, and he says this "art" for him, he appreciates the beauty of the women body, nothing sexual, he would not do it again.
He told me he has been downloading magazines like playboy, maxim since he liked the articles they post there, and some sports magazines and magazines for me But today when I opened the app, he got 2 porn magazines, one of legal teens (they masturbate and show absolutely everything. I think is kind of sick, they look really young) and another with guys and girls having sex and cumming in each other mouth.
I fell like we have a great sexual chemistry, I wonder if Im just making a big deal about this... It just does not feel right for me. Should I talk to him again or just let it pass. I'm sad, worry, we are just starting our lives together... 
Suggestions plss!!!


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

Is it a dealbreaker for you? That's what you need to decide.

He didn't say he'd stop looking after you told him how you felt. Keep that in mind.


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

Did you talk about this before marriage? Did you tell him your feelings about porn?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pame (Apr 23, 2013)

I did not know he liked it, so we never talked about it. and when I talked to him a month ago, he said he would not do it again, that he was sorry.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

How long were you physically close to each other before you got married? Some guys watch porn, some guys don't. If porn was a dealbreaker for you, you should have brought it up before getting married. Making a stink about it now will likely just drive him to try to hide it, because he won't see anything wrong with it. 

How's your sex life, in general?

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AgentD (Dec 27, 2010)

My guess is, this is something he was already into before you all married, or dated, or even met possibly. Just because you are now married, I doubt that will change things.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Does his art ever depict fat, ugly women? Guys are visual creatures and the normal ones among us like to look at attractive, naked women. Now, does the activity add anything positive to a marriage? Not as far as I can tell. Seems like a juvenile, useless waste of time to me. It doesn't make your husband a pervert and it doesn't mean you're "not enough" for him. It means you married a heterosexual male. I do find his explanations to be pretty lame and more than a little funny. He reads this stuff for the intellectual articles. Hah! If I open a magazine and there's a photo of a woman with sperm around her mouth, I just know I'm in for an intellectual feast if I read the associated articles. At least he could be honest about who he is. He's a guy and he's a horn-dog. He's a horn-dog because he's a guy. Some of us grow up. There are about a million better uses for his time.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Pame said:


> I did not know he liked it, so we never talked about it. and when I talked to him a month ago, he said he would not do it again, that he was sorry.


He only said that because you kinda freaked on him over it.

He will be continuing this habit.
Only now he'll be hiding it.
Until you find it again.
Then he'll hide it better.
Then you'll find it again.
After that you'll start doing stuff like putting monitoring software on his computer.
Then he'll raise the data allowance on his phone and stop using the computer.

Very vicious cycle you're about to enter.

Question is, do you want such a thing to become a problem in your relationship?

You're young so I'll tell you it's unlikely you'll find another man any different considering porn


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## Pame (Apr 23, 2013)

Before I have to leave we were together for 8 months then he use to visited me every 3 to 4 months for the year that i was away, we use to speak every day, day and night, and whenever we feel like doing other "things" thru the webcam we did it. 
Our sex live is good, we like to try new things and roll play and I tried to surprise him every time I can with lingerie or lap dance...


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Is it "wrong?" Only the two of you can decide if it's a no-go _for the two of you_.

If he's neglecting your needs to look at it, that's a problem he has. But, it doesn't sound like that's the case. So, I'd say, instead of freaking out about it, sit down and talk honestly about it and determine where - if anywhere - it fits into your relationship.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wiigirl (Jun 14, 2012)

AgentD said:


> My guess is, this is something he was already into before you all married, or dated, or even met possibly. Just because you are now married, I doubt that will change things.


:iagree:








_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## badcompany (Aug 4, 2010)

What has precedence?
You or the mags?
Some go this route to fill in the "gaps" when their needs aren't being met, or to simply get in a good mindset after a stressfull event. I can't count the times I've utilized such material to put "life" on the back burner, and get in a mindset to jump my wife when she comes to bed.


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

Please don't go crazy on him and monitor all his activity, I did this and it just sucks. Instead realize that he married you, this is probably old habits. Nothing to do with you. If you are open about it you both can discuss whether its wrong and how much is acceptable. It's not ok if he replaced you with it, or is viewing it all day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

Pame said:


> Before I have to leave we were together for 8 months then he use to visited me every 3 to 4 months for the year that i was away, we use to speak every day, day and night, and whenever we feel like doing other "things" thru the webcam we did it.
> Our sex live is good, we like to try new things and roll play and I tried to surprise him every time I can with lingerie or lap dance...


But you haven't said if this is a deal breaker or not? You seem like an open minded person. Don't browbeat him over this if your sex life is good. Just my .02


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

This is the sort of thing that really needs to be discussed before marriage, OP. Some people are OK with porn, others are not. The best you can do right now, IMO, is tell him how you feel and see if you can reach a compromise.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

Pame said:


> I did not know he liked it, so we never talked about it.


You should have already known. Virtually all men look at porn. It's so normal that even 90% of the men who claim they don't look at porn still do. Heck, I have been to Arab countries where porn carries a severe prison sentence, yet local young men will gladly all show me the porn on their smart phones. *Trust me, they all watch porn.*



> and when I talked to him a month ago, he said he would not do it again, that he was sorry.


A lot of women don't realize that they have their own version of porn. They read romance novels, watch soap operas, or read erotic books like _50 Shades of Grey_. Or they fall in love with famous actors. The rich, tall, handsome men in these things can also make husbands feel insecure. What if he asked you to give those up? Would you consider that a fair request? Or would you consider that too controlling? If you think that would be an unfair thing for him to ask, then maybe you need to re-examine your own demands.


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## daisygirl 41 (Aug 5, 2011)

My H and I never discussed porn before we married. I just presumed as a healthy 21 year old that he probably did indulge, like most men.
Over the years we have watched some together and he has occasionally viewed it alone. Now 20 years later he hardly ever bothers. It's not really a part of our lives.
I think your H is just a normal young man. This has nothing to do about the way he feels and thinks about you.
You need have the discussin, without becoming over emotional and demanding. You don't want him thinking he has to hide things from you this early in the relationship!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## waiwera (Sep 8, 2009)

OP - I agree with most of what has been said. Should have been discussed before marriage... 

Did you *really* think he never looked at porn? Where did you get that idea? The subject of porn must have come up over the years.


IMO more men really need to 'man up' on this issue ( I know some do... I'm saying more/all need to ). THEY need to bring up this subject before marriage (women do as well but I don't know any women who say they don't look at porn when they do...but no doubt they exist). 

Most men know women can be touchy on this subject...but too many say nothing. Leaving a timebomb ticking in the marriage. I see it quite regularly here on TAM and it has ruined a marriage I know of in RL.

There's no point telling me that something is good and healthy and normal all the while you lie, sneak and deny anything to do with it. It's *this* behavior which so often causes a lot of the pain associated with porn... what a man will do to protect his love of porn. No wife wants to be lied to or deceived... just like no man wants this in his marriage. No matter the subject/issue.

We discussed porn along with child rearing, religion, sex, finances etc... we both knew what we getting ourselves into when we married. 

OP clearly didn't, I feel quite sorry for her.


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## Faiora (Apr 20, 2013)

I think it's important to keep an open mind every time you first approach something. This doesn't mean you need to agree with it - but you need to be open to the possibility that you could agree with it under some unknown circumstances. 

So, why do you have a problem with porn? Did your upbringing teach you that it wasn't okay? Do you just think it's icky? Do you feel like he's cheating on you? Do your religious beliefs or morals prohibit it, and if so, how? You might have a very legitimate reason for not being okay with it, but I think you should really think about that and clarify. If you don't know why it upsets you, then it shouldn't upset you. 

My personal thoughts on porn: It doesn't matter, as long as it's not viewed to the extent that it interferes with important things. It's basically a visual representation of a fantasy, and I think fantasies are healthy. 

Keep in mind that you and your husband have some different interests and beliefs - and those won't go away just because you're married. There are going to be some things he likes that you don't, and vice-versa. If you have a very strong moral issue with porn, it may be worth pursuing, but just like in a friendship, at your job, or anywhere else, it's important to "pick your battles." You both need to give each other freedom, so you can expect the same in turn. 

By immediately expressing that you don't like porn, you've put up a barrier - that isn't a "safe" topic anymore. If you can accept your husband viewing porn, it might be good to make it safe again (by apologizing for your reaction) so it doesn't turn into something that's always hidden from you. In fact, if there's any way you can get involved, it might even be good for your relationship. 

Now, I don't mean you need to watch porn with him (if you find it icky, it probably won't do much for you anyway), but maybe there are fantasies you could talk about with him. Maybe he's seen something he'd like to try. At least ask him what kind of things he likes to look at - what does it for him (but not if you're still upset about it - only if you make it clear you've decided to be okay with it).

Communication is _so_ important - I'd say the hands-down-number-one most important indicator of a healthy relationship. If there is something you can't talk to your hubby about, whether it's you or him holding up communications, then something is wrong. Keep the lines open and learn to accept (at least most of) the things you learn about each other.


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## Stonewall (Jul 5, 2011)

testosterone is a cruel taskmaster.


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

A lot of men do.

It bothers some women and not others. I've looked through them myself. I watched a video not to long ago that I got for free when ordering some "toys". My husband was a bit bothered that I watched it while he was at work. That surprised me since so many men look at porn. I only watched it for 2 minutes max. It is not my thing and I was disgusted when I saw another mans unit. I love looking, touching, or whatever else to my husbands unit only.


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## Shoto1984 (Apr 11, 2009)

If everything else is good..... Love your man and be happy.


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

It's actually OK for you not like porn and not want it in your relationship. DO some research on porn and share what you find with your husband. Let him know that you are both going to be attracted to others during your marraige but you would prefer if he tried to turn his sexual attention towards you. He can choose not to watch porn, but you don't want an a sexual husband so both of you need to work at keeping your marraige fun and sexual. 

I could list all the reasons why I don't like porn but I'm out of time.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

The only males who don't enjoy looking at naked women are gay, dead, or lying. I readily admit I'd like to see all the naked hooters in the world but it wouldn't contribute to my marital peace, wouldn't get my lawn mowed, wouldn't put a dime in my pocket, wouldn't make me a smarter or better man. It might cause my wife some distress. Why waste the time and buy unnecessary drama? If I want to see hooters, my wife owns a pair.


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## Faiora (Apr 20, 2013)

Theseus said:


> You should have already known. Virtually all men look at porn. It's so normal that even 90% of the men who claim they don't look at porn still do. Heck, I have been to Arab countries where porn carries a severe prison sentence, yet local young men will gladly all show me the porn on their smart phones. *Trust me, they all watch porn.*
> 
> A lot of women don't realize that they have their own version of porn. They read romance novels, watch soap operas, or read erotic books like _50 Shades of Grey_. Or they fall in love with famous actors. The rich, tall, handsome men in these things can also make husbands feel insecure. What if he asked you to give those up? Would you consider that a fair request? Or would you consider that too controlling? If you think that would be an unfair thing for him to ask, then maybe you need to re-examine your own demands.


I really like the end part of this post... women using romance novels and the like as porn. 

You see... people talk about the types of cheating: physical and emotional. If you were to compare porn to cheating (which, in my opinion, you shouldn't), then visual porn would be like physical cheating (sex), and romance novels would be like emotional cheating. 

Neither porn nor romance novels are cheating, in my opinion - you're not forming any physical or emotional attachment in the process. You're simply using it to give yourself a hormonal rush you'd like to feel at that time. I've done the same thing with ice cream.


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

Faiora said:


> I really like the end part of this post... women using romance novels and the like as porn.
> 
> You see... people talk about the types of cheating: physical and emotional. If you were to compare porn to cheating (which, in my opinion, you shouldn't), then visual porn would be like physical cheating (sex), and romance novels would be like emotional cheating.
> 
> Neither porn nor romance novels are cheating, in my opinion - you're not forming any physical or emotional attachment in the process. You're simply using it to give yourself a hormonal rush you'd like to feel at that time. I've done the same thing with ice cream.


There is actually visual porn aimed at women. People are too hung up on sex and sexuality. You married this porn watching man. He can't be all bad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pame (Apr 23, 2013)

So I talked to him and he says he got a porn addiction, should I be cool with it?? I'm kind of afraid what could happen in the future with his "addictions"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Pame said:


> So I talked to him and he says he got a porn addiction, should I be cool with it?? I'm kind of afraid what could happen in the future with his "addictions"
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How did you talk to him? If he's still in damage control mode (that is, if you're giving him the impression - rightly or wrongly - that you disapprove), "porn addiction" is his "get out of jail free" card. He not only waves away the behavior that freaked you out as bein out of his control, he sets the stage for explaining away whenever you catch him next.

I still advise that the two of you sit down and calmly, openly and honestly discuss the matter and determine what is and isn't acceptable for the two of you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AgentD (Dec 27, 2010)

Pame said:


> So I talked to him and he says he got a porn addiction, should I be cool with it?? I'm kind of afraid what could happen in the future with his "addictions"
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He may or may not have an actual addiction. Some people like to throw out the word addiction in hopes it justifies what it is they are doing. Perhaps he would like you to take pity on him, so if you heard the word addiction and then felt bad for him so he can continue on, because he "can't help it." 

I do not know if your husband for sure does or does not have an addiction, but I can only speak for myself, and that is my husband had a drinking problem, (addiction) and addiction or not, the bottom line for me was you either get help or I'm gone. He has been in recovery now for for 5 years and done great. I'm not one to play games with someone else behavior effecting mine. Now I don't know if your husbands "addiction" is effecting your life, but if so, you will need to make a choice on how you want to live your life, period.

So perhaps call his bluff. If he in fact has an addiction, then you need to say to him, if you have an addiction then you need to seek help, if not then we need to part ways, because you're not willing to put up with that. If he really has a problem then he should have no problem seeking help.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Pame said:


> So I talked to him and he says he got a porn addiction, should I be cool with it?? I'm kind of afraid what could happen in the future with his "addictions"
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Most addictions are potentially damaging, and if your H thinks he's addicted to porn he needs help with it. If it's an addiction (as opposed to a habit), over time it might have the tendency to escalate and impact on your physical intimacy. You're not OK with porn, so it's unlikely that you're going to be "cool with it," so you both need to tackle the issue sooner rather than later.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

My thoughts (as a guy who watched porn)... If he truly has an addiction, he needs to actively seek help to deal with it. But I'd say the vast majority of guys who claim to have a porn addiction just use it as an excuse for their actions. "It's not my fault I watch porn; I have an addiction". 

So the real question is, what is he willing to do to overcome this? Trade in his smart phone for an old-school cell? Give up Internet access? See a counselor?

C


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## eyuop (Apr 7, 2013)

Cosmos said:


> Most addictions are potentially damaging, and if your H thinks he's addicted to porn he needs help with it. If it's an addiction (as opposed to a habit), over time it might have the tendency to escalate and impact on your physical intimacy. You're not OK with porn, so it's unlikely that you're going to be "cool with it," so you both need to tackle the issue sooner rather than later.


I see no distinction between an "addiction" and a "habit". A habit is simply an addiction that is being labeled as a habit. Things that are pleasurable are "habit forming", or "addicting".

The problem I've found with porn (I'm a guy who has been addicted) is that it is like many other addictions in that to get the same "rush" from it, you have to experiment with new doses. As a teen, just seeing a nude pose in a magazine could get me off. Then when videos entered the scene, the bar was moved to another level. Then there was the kind of videos. Softcore was plenty enough at first. But then hardcore was even more fun. Then kinky. Then group sex. On an on it can go. Sometimes the search for just the right sex scene was almost as much of a turn on as finding it. 

What I was worried about was where that slide leads. I was at times tempted to look at live sex cams, which moves into interacting with real people in real time. That isn't the same as "doing it for real", but it is about as close as one is going to get and I do see this as actually cheating on your spouse (like phone sex with a real person or live sex chat with a real person, or even writing sexy letters back and forth with a real person... all forms of cheating). 

Then there is the temptation to find a sex partner through an escort service or some other way (casual encounters through a variety of windows).

Of course, not all men go this route, or will go this route. But it is one possible (and natural) progression. 

I was addicted to porn, never did any of the "live" options. I thought of porn as my own little supplement to my wife's low libido. It was like she only needed one meal a day but I needed three (not literally here -- this is just for comparison-sake). Her sexual appetite was being satisfied and mine wasn't. And so I masturbated to porn usually when I made a sexual advance and was turned down because she wasn't in the mood, had a headache, or whatever other excuse. I remember her saying once, "But you just had sex yesterday... how could you want it again so soon?" To which I replied, "You already ate yesterday, why do you want breakfast today?" She couldn't understand that my libido would go in waves where I would desire her for a few days in a row (especially if I was in a stressful situation at work) and then be okay for a few days. 

She would also use sex a a weapon. If I said something or did something that bugged her, she would not be "in the mood" and would basically blame me for being a mood killer. So as long as I was behaving like she wanted and performing well, she would sometimes even initiate sex. But one screw up and no sex that night -- which was a perfect excuse for me to get off to a pile of bodies humping each other like crazy in a video when she wasn't home.

When I would initiate sex and get rejected, I used it as an excuse for porn viewing later. 

However, now I'm in the process of becoming "un-addicted". I'm focusing all of my sexual and emotional energy on my wife. She doesn't even know I was addicted to porn (at least she doesn't seem to know at all). But I'm taking the plunge and manning up.

I hope the best for you and your husband. Like all the rest of the posters here, you need to communicate with him and really communicate, not just shame or act disgusted. It will only push him away from you if you do that. If you don't want him into porn, and it is a deal breaker for you if he is, tell him. If he is addicted, you will need to force the issue of getting help. If he doesn't want to get help, you have no choice but to find another man or remain single.


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## Sussieq (Apr 6, 2013)

Pame said:


> So we just been married for 3 months (not a long time to think he needs "something" new) plus we were in a long distance relation ship for more than a year, so I was thinking he would not have eyes for other women . He is 28 and I'm 24.
> 2 months ago I opened his ipad and saw picts of "legal teens" which pissed me off. It made me feel like I was not enough for him, (I don not have a great self esteem, that he needs another type of visual stimulation.
> I told him how I feel about this, and he says this "art" for him, he appreciates the beauty of the women body, nothing sexual, he would not do it again.
> He told me he has been downloading magazines like playboy, maxim since he liked the articles they post there, and some sports magazines and magazines for me But today when I opened the app, he got 2 porn magazines, one of legal teens (they masturbate and show absolutely everything. I think is kind of sick, they look really young) and another with guys and girls having sex and cumming in each other mouth.
> ...


It doesn't bother me at all. I think if a guy enjoys the mags, he'll just hide them from you if you demand he not look at them. Many couples look at porn (mags and movies) together and it enhances their sex life. Btw Playboy isn't porn and there really are good articles there. I've been reading my husband's Playboy mags for years.


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## Sussieq (Apr 6, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> Does his art ever depict fat, ugly women? Guys are visual creatures and the normal ones among us like to look at attractive, naked women. Now, does the activity add anything positive to a marriage? Not as far as I can tell. Seems like a juvenile, useless waste of time to me. It doesn't make your husband a pervert and it doesn't mean you're "not enough" for him. It means you married a heterosexual male. I do find his explanations to be pretty lame and more than a little funny. He reads this stuff for the intellectual articles. Hah! If I open a magazine and there's a photo of a woman with sperm around her mouth, I just know I'm in for an intellectual feast if I read the associated articles. At least he could be honest about who he is. He's a guy and he's a horn-dog. He's a horn-dog because he's a guy. Some of us grow up. There are about a million better uses for his time.


My dad subscribed to Playboy from the 70's until 2005. He really did read the articles. My mom wasn't bothered by it at all. They were married 53 happy years.


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## WalterWhite (Sep 14, 2012)

What one fills their mind with is what they will obsess over. Today it's porn. Tomorrow it's a hooker, the girl next door, someone at work. It's a slow march toward infidelity. You can be the "cool" wife and let it be, or you can take advantage of the fact that you don't have any kids, so it would be good to take the exit, and leave him to his glossies, hand cream, and Kleenex box.


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## SouthernMiss (Apr 25, 2013)

Porn is ok in a marriage if both spouses agree it is. If one party does not, or neither party does, it isn't.

It really is that easy and simple.

Porn is NOT ok in my marriage. I have a healthy sex drive...I'm known as a bit of a perv actually...but I have a lot of issues with the porn industry, and I think it hurts people. 

Not everybody agrees with me. That's ok. But my husband does. And so it works for us.

My ex-husband liked porn. This was a major source of hurt for me. More damaging than the hurt was that I lost an enormous amount of respect for him...I viewed him as a liar because he hid his like of porn, said he hated it to appease me when he should have allowed me to know his mind on the matter and let me decide if I could accept it...instead he tricked me...it's hard to be turned on by a man you feel is doing something wrong, doing something that hurts you and lies about it and hides it...though he's seen the pain it causes. It's hardest of all to accept a husband who you just don't feel respect for anymore. 

It's one thing to like porn. It's another thing to like porn enough that you're willing to hurt your spouse's heart in order to view it. If he knows it hurts you, he should demonstrate his love for you by not viewing it. That's a small thing to do for the woman he loves above all else, isn't it?

Be reasonable. Act in love. But by all means, stand up for what you need and what you value. If this hurts you, you're not wrong. He's not a bad man for viewing porn, but he is doing a bad thing by viewing porn if it hurts you.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> The only males who don't enjoy looking at naked women are gay, dead, or lying


If you mean that as in watching porn...you're wrong. If you mean in general, you are correct... and some actually stick to looking only at their spouses. Shocking, I know.




Theseus said:


> A lot of women don't realize that they have their own version of porn. They read romance novels, watch soap operas, or read erotic books like _50 Shades of Grey_. Or they fall in love with famous actors. The rich, tall, handsome men in these things can also make husbands feel insecure. What if he asked you to give those up? Would you consider that a fair request? Or would you consider that too controlling? If you think that would be an unfair thing for him to ask, then maybe you need to re-examine your own demands.


So many keep bringing up romance novels and it's really getting old. Many women DON'T read that trash any more than the men who choose not to watch porn. Whether people wish to believe it or not, we DO exist. 



Theseus said:


> *Trust me, they all watch porn.*


I'm really getting sick of this. Not every man watches porn. And I know, so many will say "yea, keep telling yourself that." It really is insulting that people insist that everyone does this when in fact, that is false. I know, there is nothing that can be said that will convince you otherwise. But this blanket "all or nothing" crap is getting old. Not everyone watches/looks at it. Not everyone has that desire. And those who choose not to are not always lying about it.


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## desertdog (Apr 22, 2013)

Nothing wrong with porn here and there. It shouldn't replace your bedroom life though. 

I likely look at porn more than my husband does.


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## SouthernMiss (Apr 25, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> I'm really getting sick of this. Not every man watches porn. And I know, so many will say "yea, keep telling yourself that." It really is insulting that people insist that everyone does this when in fact, that is false. I know, there is nothing that can be said that will convince you otherwise. But this blanket "all or nothing" crap is getting old. Not everyone watches/looks at it. Not everyone has that desire. And those who choose not to are not always lying about it.


*applause*

No, not every man watches porn. MANY men watch porn, but also many straight men with healthy sex drives do not watch porn. Whether it be that it doesn't turn them on, for moral reasons, not to hurt their wife...there are SO many reasons that some men just don't watch it. There are a lot of men who actually would like to watch porn, but they don't because it's not important enough to them to hurt their wives. 

I don't think a man is bad because he watches porn. Or likes porn. I think there's a natural appeal to most men. But men, contrary to popular opinion, are not animals. Many CAN and DO simply elect not to watch it.

Saying "Aw he's a man...he's gonna watch porn" is a cop out. If a man loves his wife...and it bothers his wife...he is going to cease watching porn if it upsets his wife. This is his WIFE. If she minds, he should stop. It's called love. It's called respect.

Good post!


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> If you mean that as in watching porn...you're wrong. If you mean in general, you are correct... and some actually stick to looking only at their spouses. Shocking, I know.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree with you, not every man watches porn, and not every woman fantasies about movie stars.

But 95% do...


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

Internet Pornography Statistics

Internet users who view porn 42.7%

(source Pornography Statistics)

Outdated info, from 2006, but I think is has only grown with faster connections and more computers, tablets etc. everywhere.

I think you can safely assume women are less into watching then men, there are a lot of children who use internet but are restricted in watching porn, so the % of men will be quite high.


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

I don't read trashy romance novels, and my SO doesn't watch porn. I do read novels with romance in them, and we do read and watch things with sex scenes and romance in them, but we don't seek them out for sexual gratification nor use them for masturbation purposes. 

I do think that anything that bothers the other person shoud be examined and the other spouse should think seriously and take action to give up whatever hurts their spouse. 

It seems like any other issue that bothers a spouse is taken seriously, unless its porn, then it's "how dare you even suggest such a thing". Porn as we know it currently, is relatively new, it brings with it so many issues. And just because its related to sexuality does not mean we should over look it and give it a free pass. Just because we may enjoy it, doesn't mean it's good for us or enhances our relationships. 

I mean unless your spouse is legit carazy and is yelling every 15 minutes " I hate purple buttons, how dare you wear them" and "I don't like drinking water, so you are never allowed it again" or other such nonsensical rubbish, then think carefully about how if your actions and wants are reasonable and more importantly do the enhance your relationship. 

Moreover if you see porn as a need then you probably can't see it objectively and need to step back.


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

SouthernMiss said:


> *applause*
> 
> No, not every man watches porn. MANY men watch porn, but also many straight men with healthy sex drives do not watch porn. Whether it be that it doesn't turn them on, for moral reasons, not to hurt their wife...there are SO many reasons that some men just don't watch it. There are a lot of men who actually would like to watch porn, but they don't because it's not important enough to them to hurt their wives.
> 
> I don't think a man is bad because he watches porn. Or likes porn. I think there's a natural appeal to most men. But men, contrary to popular opinion, are not animals. Many CAN and DO simply elect not to watch it.


About 30% of adult men don't watch porn. 

It is interesting to me that you say that you don't like porn because the 'the porn industry hurts people' and then you go on to imply that men who watch porn are 'animals' who lack respect and that your exe's porn watching 'hurt' you. 

If you have an emotional issue with men watching porn why not just say that? Why do so many porn-haters feel they have to come up with medical, scientific or social reasons why porn is bad instead of just saying they hate it?



SouthernMiss said:


> Saying "Aw he's a man...he's gonna watch porn" is a cop out. If a man loves his wife...and it bothers his wife...he is going to cease watching porn if it upsets his wife. This is his WIFE. If she minds, he should stop. It's called love. It's called respect.
> 
> Good post!


 So is a spouse obliged to stop doing anything that the other is bothered by?


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

About 70% of men admit that they look at pictures of naked women. 25% lie about it. 5% are gay.


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

Pame said:


> So we just been married for 3 months (not a long time to think he needs "something" new) plus we were in a long distance relation ship for more than a year, so I was thinking he would not have eyes for other women . He is 28 and I'm 24.
> 2 months ago I opened his ipad and saw picts of "legal teens" which pissed me off. It made me feel like I was not enough for him, (I don not have a great self esteem, that he needs another type of visual stimulation.
> I told him how I feel about this, and he says this "art" for him, he appreciates the beauty of the women body, nothing sexual, he would not do it again.
> He told me he has been downloading magazines like playboy, maxim since he liked the articles they post there, and some sports magazines and magazines for me But today when I opened the app, he got 2 porn magazines, one of legal teens (they masturbate and show absolutely everything. I think is kind of sick, they look really young) and another with guys and girls having sex and cumming in each other mouth.
> ...


Statistics show that at least 70% of men regularly use porn. I personally don't know a single man of my generation who doesn't. Most of my male friends are happily married, family men. They are not monsters and they don't all think that their wives are 'not enough' for them.

Your husband is lying when he says that it is 'art' for him. That excuse has been trotted out ever since porn was invented - on the walls of caves thousands of years ago. He is wrong to lie. It is cowardly, but it comes from a good place. He knows that you are hurt by this and he wants to reduce that hurt. Another lie is when he says he won't do it again. He will. He will probably just try to hide it better.

Masturbation is universal amongst men. It is healthy and important. Porn is a masturbation aid that is used by most men who have access to it. There is no reliable evidence that moderate porn use causes harm. Nor is there reliable evidence to suggest that it has a negative effect on mens' attitudes to women in general or their partners specifically. 

I personally would not tolerate my wife trying to control my masturbation/fantasy life or my using a legal medium to help me masturbate. She is free to masturbate and to use whatever legal medium or tool helps her to do so. She favours cucumbers and written erotica. 

It is unrealistic to think that we (men and women) are not attracted to others or to the idea of sex with others. This is hard to accept at 24 but it is an inescapable fact of life. To fight against our biological wiring in that way is irrational and counter-productive. Porn and masturbation is the way most men choose to deal with those urges. Many women do too and many choose other ways. Why take away an outlet for our natural urges? Do you think that banning porn will reverse millions of years of human evolution? Will those desires disappear? 

Did you make it clear before you got married that porn was unacceptable to you?


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Chris989 said:


> About 70% of men admit that they look at pictures of naked women. 25% lie about it. 5% are gay.


And again, you're wrong. I really don't see why it is so difficult for some people to comprehend that a straight man chooses not to look at it. I know it's not what "everyone else is doing", but they do exist. I know AT LEAST 20 men off the top of my head who have ZERO interest in pornography. What is so difficult about saying "many watch it" as opposed to slamming those who genuinely DO NOT want that trash in their lives?Maybe it's my bias. Maybe I got spoiled by men who actually live what they profess to believe. Go figure, people who stand by their convictions.

No, Chris, your breakdown of men is wrong. I won't argue with the 70% but I WILL challenge the 20% and 5%...actually, maybe the 5% can stay. But that remaining 20% needs to be changed. You need to allow for the men who genuinely do not look at it. As difficult as the concept may be to grasp, they do exist. And whether you like it or not, you will have to accept that not every straight man has any interest in it.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

See_Listen_Love said:


> I agree with you, not every man watches porn, and not every woman fantasies about movie stars.
> 
> But 95% do...


Well, if going by Chris's breakdown of 70-20-5... no, it wouldn't be 5%. Because it's not only gay men who don't look at it. Really, what is so difficult about saying "many men" rather than "all" and implying that one's spouse is lying if they say they don't look at it? I fail to see why it's such a difficult concept to grasp.


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## Terry_CO (Oct 23, 2012)

"All men watch porn, scientists find"
Scientists at the University of Montreal launched a search for men who had never looked at pornography - but couldn't find any ... Researchers were conducting a study comparing the views of men in their 20s who had never been exposed to pornography with regular users.

But their project stumbled at the first hurdle when they failed to find a single man who had not seen it.

“We started our research seeking men in their 20s who had never consumed pornography,” said Professor Simon Louis Lajeunesse. “We couldn't find any.”

Although hampered in its original aim, the study did examined the habits of those young men who used pornography – which would appear to be all of them.

Prof Lajeunesse interviewed 20 heterosexual male university students who consumed pornography, and found on average, they first watched pornography when they were 10 years old."

All men watch porn, scientists find - Telegraph

And ....

"Who views porn? Overwhelmingly, men by themselves. According to Adult Video News, the pornography trade magazine, 71 percent of X-rated media is viewed by men alone, 19 percent by heterosexual couples, 7 percent by gay male couples, and 2 percent by women (by themselves or lesbian couples). Men who use porn solo account for almost three times as much as all other users combined ...

One reason women recoil from porn, Fair Oaks, California sex therapist Louanne Weston, Ph.D., explains, "is that many women feel insecure about their bodies, especially compared with the women in porn." Since the Internet, porn bodies have become more diverse with every type of woman imaginable--every age, race, ethnicity, weight, and breast size. But this new diversity doesn't change anything. The women in porn flaunt it, shake it, and crave sex constantly. Few real women are like that."

Porn: Why Does My Man Watch? Is He a Sex Addict? | Psychology Today


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> I know AT LEAST 20 men off the top of my head who have ZERO interest in pornography.


And I can name at least 20 women who claim that "size doesn't matter". Doesn't mean it's true...

With all due respect Maricha, I'm pretty confident that 19 out of those 20 of those men aren't telling you the truth, and the research backs me up.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

SouthernMiss said:


> Porn is ok in a marriage if both spouses agree it is. If one party does not, or neither party does, it isn't.
> 
> It really is that easy and simple.


The problem is, is that a reasonable demand? If a wife is uncomfortable with the husband going to the beach because he would see women in bikinis, then he shouldn't be allowed to go? If a husband can't stand his wife going out in public without covering her body from head to toe, then she shouldn't be allowed to do it?

What my wife watches in her own time is her own business. She's an adult. And the same goes for me. It only becomes my business if the porn (or whatever it is) starts to interfere with our sex life. That's it.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Terry_CO said:


> "All men watch porn, scientists find"
> Scientists at the University of Montreal launched a search for men who had never looked at pornography - but couldn't find any ... Researchers were conducting a study comparing the views of men in their 20s who had never been exposed to pornography with regular users.
> 
> But their project stumbled at the first hurdle when they failed to find a single man who had not seen it.
> ...


The premise of the article is flawed. Watching porn on a (fairly) regular basis is NOT the same as just having been exposed to it. I didn't say they never were exposed to it. I said they CHOOSE not to watch it. My husband had seen it when he was in his early/late teens. He was repulsed by it. My dad told us girls that he used to look at Playboy and others BEFORE he got with our mom. After? Not one bit. I'm not stupid. I know that it's highly unlikely that any man will NEVER be exposed to porn. What I'm saying is that there ARE men who choose not to look at it... be it respect for their wives' position regarding the subject or religious convictions. 

The premise of the thread was whether or not it is ok for a spouse to watch it/look at it. My question for the OP is: are you ok with it? If yes, then it's ok. If no, then it's not. The argument has been made that even Muslims and other people belonging to very religious groups look at it. Well, I'd have to say that, if they are viewing it, then they aren't really living what they profess to believe.

And, I repeat, I never said my dad, nor my husband, nor many other men have never been exposed to pornography. I said that SOME men choose not to view any of it. And, no matter what these studies at universities say, not all 20+ year old men look at it. I know my husband didn't when he was in his 20s. We married a couple months before he turned 19 and he was in college/tech school when in his 20s.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Theseus said:


> And I can name at least 20 women who claim that "size doesn't matter". Doesn't mean it's true...
> 
> With all due respect Maricha, I'm pretty confident that 19 out of those 20 of those men aren't telling you the truth, and the research backs me up.


Believe what you want. I can promise you that the research you have that backs you up is flawed. But whatever. Those who are gung ho about porn aren't going to believe that there are actually men who morally are opposed to it. God forbid a straight man go against the grain. Your research is wrong, whether you want to accept that or not.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

The arguments are moot. This is not a fidelity issue; it's a control issue. It is between this man and woman. They might work it out, they might not.

You may believe what you wish about the prevalence of looking at porn. When i think about it, i don't know any *women* under 55 that I know well enough to have discussed it that don't watch porn.

The op needs to get real and stop attempting to control her husband's thoughts.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Well, if going by Chris's breakdown of 70-20-5... no, it wouldn't be 5%. Because it's not only gay men who don't look at it. Really, what is so difficult about saying "many men" rather than "all" and implying that one's spouse is lying if they say they don't look at it? I fail to see why it's such a difficult concept to grasp.


It is not difficult to say so, it's easy. It also keeps the taboo alive. Where the exception to the group can be judged, has to convert, and live a new life without porn.

That's like communism to me, having to believe in a system that does not exist.

The failing to find people for the research that did not watch porn is even indicating 100% in the younger generations...


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

To get a clear view on the subject, one should replace 'porn' with one of the other issues that in the past were taboo, and today are considered no problem at all.

Like 'women cannot have pleasure from having sex'

Like 'masturbation makes you go to hell'

And

Subjects in transition,

Like gay marriage

Like anal sex

Well, nothing new under the sun I guess.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Chris989 said:


> The arguments are moot. This is not a fidelity issue; it's a control issue. It is between this man and woman. They might work it out, they might not.
> 
> You may believe what you wish about the prevalence of looking at porn. When i think about it, i don't know any *women* under 55 that I know well enough to have discussed it that don't watch porn.
> 
> The op needs to get real and stop attempting to control her husband's thoughts.


I agree, the issue here is between the OP and her husband. And, if it's a deal breaker, she needs to act accordingly. There's nothing wrong with it being a deal breaker to some people. Just as I wouldn't tell someone who is cool with it and their spouse is cool with it that they can't have it. 

I know it's prevalent. I'm not arguing that point. My argument is only the comment that those who don't are either lying or gay. Chris, you say you don't know ANY women under age 55 who don't watch porn. Well, I know quite a few under that age who don't. My sisters and I are 3 women who fit in that category, ages 37, 35, and 30. I will say my experience is from the ladies I have grown up with, and have gone to church with over the years. These women believe a certain way, and they stand by that faith. As such, this is not a part of their lives. Some of them even take it further and don't watch movies/TV shows... specifically those which contain any nudity. And this applies to the men i know as well. They choose to even abstain from movies with even remotely questionable content. 

But, you are right about the fact that this is about the OP and her husband. I don't necessarily agree that it is about control, but it certainly is a valid question...whether or not it is acceptable in a marriage. For some, it's fine. For others, it is not. It is a discussion that should have taken place before they married. And now, she needs to decide whether she can live with it or not.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

See_Listen_Love said:


> It is not difficult to say so, it's easy. It also keeps the taboo alive. Where the exception to the group can be judged, has to convert, and live a new life without porn.
> 
> That's like communism to me, having to believe in a system that does not exist.
> 
> The failing to find people for the research that did not watch porn is even indicating 100% in the younger generations...


The "research" stated that they were looking for those who had never been exposed to it. I can honestly say that, unless one of the neighbor boys have had a magazine or something that they have shown around to the other kids here, my 12 year old son has NOT been exposed to it. The kids don't go into the bathrooms, huddled together here. They monitor the kids going into and out of the bathrooms. No backpacks, no reading materials, nothing allowed in there. The ONLY item allowed is the hall pass, during school hours. And between breakfast/arrival at school and school starting, the kids have to put their things int heir lockers/classrooms before they can use the bathrooms. I got that information from both my 12 year old and my 6 year old, who attend the same school.

We are very open with our kids. Sex is not a taboo subject. If the neighbor kid was showing him pictures, he'd say so. This is the kind of honest communication we have with our kids. Funny thing... I asked my son about any feelings regarding even glimpses of naked women on movies (breasts only)... doesn't affect him. I think that may be due to the fact that he was always there when I was breastfeeding his siblings.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Maricha75 said:


> I know it's prevalent. I'm not arguing that point. My argument is only the comment that those who don't are either lying or gay.


How about we say that the odds seem to favor that they're lying? It just doesn't make for as snappy a quip. I won't even touch the "gay" part of it, because there's porn for pretty much all tastes.



> But, you are right about the fact that this is about the OP and her husband. I don't necessarily agree that it is about control, but it certainly is a valid question...whether or not it is acceptable in a marriage. For some, it's fine. For others, it is not. It is a discussion that should have taken place before they married. And now, she needs to decide whether she can live with it or not.


For sure. I've been fortunate in that it's both been brought up early in both of my significant relationships and also been a non-issue in both.

My first serious gf, in college, had actually been my for we roommate's gf. When they split up and she and I got together, one of the first times she came over to my apartment, the first thing she asked was, "Where's the porn? Ex told me you guys didn't have any, but...c'mon! I know better." When my wife and I first got together, I don't even remember how it came up...as I recall, I just didn't make a special point of hiding it. Not as funny a story as the one from college.

I've got some theories as to why it doesn't come up between couples before becoming an issue more often, but they require gross generalizations.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Grayson said:


> How about we say that the odds seem to favor that they're lying? It just doesn't make for as snappy a quip. I won't even touch the "gay" part of it, because there's porn for pretty much all tastes.


I can accept that. As for the "gay" part, sorry, I should have clarified... not getting aroused by seeing the naked body of someone of the opposite sex. Better? 

Anyway, I guess it just gets old seeing posts that generalize "everyone does it", when that is not the case at all. And implying something is wrong with a married man if he doesn't watch (hetero) porn.... i.e. that he's lying to his wife or he's gay. I have mentioned quite a few times that I know my husband doesn't look at it at all. Right now, we share my laptop. His desktop needs to be fixed (fried motherboard...stupid dog!). No special settings for anyone. One log on ID, we share. No problems. When one of us is home, at LEAST one child is always home as well. Otherwise, we're always home together. I have access to his phone at any time, he has access to mine. There is nothing hidden anywhere. So, yes, I can confidently say there is none in our house.

My dad recently told us that he did look at magazines/pictures in his youth/early 20s. But that ended, by HIS choice, when he got with my mom. We girls mostly had free reign of the house. Often, both mom and dad would send us into their bedroom for something from the nightstand. Or we would put the laundry away, which included underclothing. We would snoop at Christmas for gifts. With how much we were in their room, how much they had us getting into their things, we would have found something... had there been anything to find. 

So, with the above mentioned "I'm pretty confident that 19 out of those 20 of those men aren't telling you the truth, and the research backs me up." from Theseus... there's two right now. Since many boys get their first glimpse at around 10-11... I can add a 12 year old and a 15 year old as well. That's 4. So, no matter what the "research" of these universities shows, my experience is different. Hence, my reason for not putting stock into much "research"


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## Faiora (Apr 20, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> I agree, the issue here is between the OP and her husband. And, if it's a deal breaker, she needs to act accordingly. There's nothing wrong with it being a deal breaker to some people. Just as I wouldn't tell someone who is cool with it and their spouse is cool with it that they can't have it.
> 
> ... ...
> 
> But, you are right about the fact that this is about the OP and her husband. I don't necessarily agree that it is about control, but it certainly is a valid question...whether or not it is acceptable in a marriage. For some, it's fine. For others, it is not. It is a discussion that should have taken place before they married. And now, she needs to decide whether she can live with it or not.


I can't believe how many people don't learn enough about each other before getting married. 

If you have preexisting deal-breakers, you can't assume the other person shares them, even if you know the person very, very well. You should WANT to talk about these things - because if you share the same boundaries, it will make you feel good and reinforce your value for each other, and if there are differing boundaries, you need to know so you can come to some understanding. If you don't have that understanding in place, someone ends up feeling betrayed.

And, even without preexisting deal-breakers, you need to examine subjects which haven't come up yet - because they will. This forum is a great resource for that, because you can see the trouble others have run into as a result of not discussing things well enough before getting married. Just don't fall into the trap of starting discussions with "oh, we're not like THEM, and we'll never have THOSE problems, because..."

Sorry. Rant over. 

The more constructive stuff: If you have a big problem with something your partner does (and wants to continue doing), you need to do your honest best to talk to them in a non-judgmental and accepting way, or you could potentially lose communication on the subject altogether (and/or cause it to become a hidden/secretive thing). Keep in mind that while it may be a deal-breaker for you, it might ALSO be a deal-breaker for them. You need to decide if it's really REALLY worth being upset over. 

You don't have to like everything your partner does. You don't have to agree all the time. You just have to like each other where it matters, and agree where it matters. If you already like who he is - you know you love him - then why would you let porn redefine who he is? Why not let him redefine what porn is? Unless porn is as important to you as your husband. 

And this might be the case. If I was with someone who joined the military, for instance, that would be a personal deal-breaker for me. Note that for me, this is definitely a pre-marriage discussion topic. [disclaimer for all the military-proud Americans on the forum: this is just a personal thing. I'm not saying anything bad about the military. Just saying it's a relationship deal-breaker for me personally.]

If the SO decided to join the military, I would talk to them calmly and without judgement, but still explain my own reservations and issues. I would not issue ultimatums, or expect them to change if the military is something very important to them. But, if it was something they had decided they needed in their life, *I would not see it as them "choosing it over me."* I truly think we can have all of the things that are important to us in life, and that we should neither sacrifice our needs for others, nor allow them to do the same for us. (note I say "needs" and "things that are important" - not to be confused with "wants" and "things we'd like")


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Maricha75 said:


> I can accept that. As for the "gay" part, sorry, I should have clarified... not getting aroused by seeing the naked body of someone of the opposite sex. Better?
> 
> Anyway, I guess it just gets old seeing posts that generalize "everyone does it", when that is not the case at all. And implying something is wrong with a married man if he doesn't watch (hetero) porn.... i.e. that he's lying to his wife or he's gay. I have mentioned quite a few times that I know my husband doesn't look at it at all. Right now, we share my laptop. His desktop needs to be fixed (fried motherboard...stupid dog!). No special settings for anyone. One log on ID, we share. No problems. When one of us is home, at LEAST one child is always home as well. Otherwise, we're always home together. I have access to his phone at any time, he has access to mine. There is nothing hidden anywhere. So, yes, I can confidently say there is none in our house.
> 
> ...


Oh, don't worry...I understand that you weren't the one who tacked on "or gay" to the end of that first sweeping statement. I was just saying that I wouldn't include it because that sweeping statement just referred to looking at porn, apparently in general. So, from that perspective, I don't see what orientation has to do with it. 

As to research results vs personal experience...well...that's why research studies use a larger and generally more diverse pool of data. And, that's not to say that such results are infallible. But, if we base conclusions on a smaller data pool, and one that would likely tend to reflect our own views (since we as people tend to be surrounded by like-minded people...either they raised us, we raise them, or we have commonalities that facilitate friendships), our conclusions will likely be skewed. So, that "19 out of 20" is extrapolated to speak of a much larger population. Due to the nature of the personalities around you (if we accept the 19 of 20 number for illustration's sake), you have a tendency to be surrounded by the "#20's" of multiple groupings, while others may be around the "#'s 1-19" in multiple groupings, with no "#20's" around. Nature of the beast when dealing with projecting out to larger populations; when you calculate out your sample to billions of people, it can be hard to view as correct, because we don't all line ourselves up in groups of 20 with 19 people who do look at it and 1 who doesn't. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## olwhatsisname (Dec 5, 2012)

if he is still breathing is he wrong for this ?????


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## SouthernMiss (Apr 25, 2013)

johnnycomelately said:


> About 30% of adult men don't watch porn.
> 
> It is interesting to me that you say that you don't like porn because the 'the porn industry hurts people' and then you go on to imply that men who watch porn are 'animals' who lack respect and that your exes porn watching 'hurt' you.
> 
> If you have an emotional issue with men watching porn why not just say that? Why do so many porn-haters feel they have to come up with medical, scientific or social reasons why porn is bad instead of just saying they hate it?



And I find it interesting that you interpreted my post to say that men who watch porn are animals. I specifically stated that men who watch porn are not bad men, and it has a natural appeal for most men.

You're the one who seems to have an emotional issue surrounding porn. To an extreme degree...you are very defensive of it. Why does it bother you if someone doesn't like porn? I am a "porn hater?" lol That is so silly. I do not hate porn or people who star in porn or people who watch porn. I do not, however, like porn for myself...hell I'd rather make my own collection with my husband if anything lol...WAY more fun...and I do not want porn to be part of my relationship. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Is porn required viewing or something? Did I miss the memo?

I did neither say nor imply that men who watch porn were animals. I said men - meaning all men - are NOT animals. Don't put words in my mouth, ok? Thanks.

And yes, my ex-husband's porn watching DID hurt me because he blatantly lied about it. He insisted throughout our courtship that he disliked porn and had a serious moral problem with that. Since he was a member of the clergy, and I thought he was a truthful person, I believed him. And so I did not question that. I had every right to know that he in fact did like porn because I was clear that it was of some importance to me. Instead, he lied...lied extensively...and went to enormous lengths to secretly view it. I had a right to be told the truth about who he was, and what he liked sexually, before he put the ring on my finger. THAT hurt. It hurt when he did it the first time, and it hurt when it eventually led to many emotional and physical affairs. And for the record, he is the one who says they are connected matters...and I tend to see the logic as his secret porn viewing led him to make a jump to secret sex chat...and these are the women he had affairs with. So, yes, all of that HURT. 

If we had dated and he had told me liked porn, I probably would not have continued to see him. Maybe I would have. But I would have known the score and made my choice and had nothing to complain about. 



johnnycomelately said:


> So is a spouse obliged to stop doing anything that the other is bothered by?


Within healthy reason, of course! 

Of course, we can't always make our spouses happy. But on some matters, we can. And if it's within reasonable, healthy boundaries that you can act to stop your partner from being upset or hurt...you damn well should. If porn is SO important to you that you would rather keep watching it KNOWING it is causing your lifemate distress...that is cold and mean and indicates an unhealthy relationship to porn AND an unhealthy attitude toward your partner.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

SouthernMiss said:


> Within healthy reason, of course!
> 
> Of course, we can't always make our spouses happy. But on some matters, we can. And if it's within reasonable, healthy boundaries that you can act to stop your partner from being upset or hurt...you damn well should. If porn is SO important to you that you would rather keep watching it KNOWING it is causing your lifemate distress...that is cold and mean and indicates an unhealthy relationship to porn AND an unhealthy attitude toward your partner.


While I can understand and agree - at least to a point - with the sentiment here, allow me to explain my disconnect with part of this idea.

What it basically boils down to is one partner being so upset by a genre of entertainment that the other enjoys, that it causes them such distress.

If we substitute the word "porn" with "sitcoms," or "medical dramas" or "cooking shows," it seems ridiculous. But with porn, a higher degree of outrage seems to be blindly accepted.

Personally, I feel that's part of a vicious circle-- many women being taught that it's "bad" and "wrong," and that they should not tolerate it at all; meanwhile most men are taught that its ok, but don't let the woman in your life know you like it or there'll be hell to pay...it's their "dirty little secret" to be locked away. As such, far too many couples don't talk about it openly and honestly, which only exacerbates the problem. Lather, rinse, repeat, as the cycle just keeps going round and round.

While I don't think porn will ever be fully mainstreamed, I think that its slight entry into mainstream awareness can be beneficial to this, as the stigma can be somewhat lessened. Demystify it, and the power that far too many give it will fade. Hopefully.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SouthernMiss (Apr 25, 2013)

Theseus said:


> The problem is, is that a reasonable demand? If a wife is uncomfortable with the husband going to the beach because he would see women in bikinis, then he shouldn't be allowed to go? If a husband can't stand his wife going out in public without covering her body from head to toe, then she shouldn't be allowed to do it?


There is no demand. There is an agreement. An understanding. A mutual decision about whether porn will welcomed within the marriage or not. 

I think if one party, after marriage, tries to change the rules...I can understand this causing some strife. 

The same for your other examples...I personally would see myself telling my husband he couldn't see women at the beach...or my husband asking me to clothe myself from head to toe...as controlling and odd demands. But if we both agreed to it before we were married, what have I got to complain about? Is it healthy? Probably not...but those are, by design, extreme examples. By the same token, if we both understand that I'm a Feminist, and accept that...then years into the marriage...he tells me I must start to cover myself...then he changed the rules without my consent and that's going to cause problems.

Sometimes...when things aren't REALLY important...we bend a bit though...

Is porn really important? Is it? More important than your wife's feelings? 

I'll use my own husband. He can be very possessive and very jealous. Sometimes the things that get him jealous seem a little ridiculous to me. And I won't bend to any unhealthy demands. But I've come to realize that I can sometimes change things that are small or unimportant to ME but DO matter to him...to save his feelings. If I'm not compromising healthy boundaries, isn't it the decent thing to do...to give a little so I don't hurt him? I encounter this dilemma with some frequency in my marriage, and my answer isn't always the same. It depends on how important the issue is to me...and whether it's a healthy thing to bend on.

Ultimately though, I've found that I far prefer to save my husband's feelings from being hurt if I can. Porn, even for someone who enjoys it, should not be more important than the feelings of his or her partner. It isn't essential...it's a little thing...and it's not unhealthy to go without it. You didn't marry porn. You don't have kids with porn. You don't have a lifetime commitment to porn. You don't owe allegiance to porn. So which is more important? Porn? No. It shouldn't be. 

Sometimes I think we forget that it's sometimes necessary to simply be KIND to our spouses. Protective of them. 




Theseus said:


> What my wife watches in her own time is her own business. She's an adult. And the same goes for me. It only becomes my business if the porn (or whatever it is) starts to interfere with our sex life. That's it.


And that's a perfectly reasonable way to be. For you and your wife. That scenario works for you. 

It doesn't for me or my husband. That doesn't make you bad. But it doesn't make me bad either. 

I mean, many people judge my husband's and my sexual proclivities harshly (S&M) and think we're lunatics. I am not a prude lol But we established that this was right for US, mutually, when we began dating. 

It really IS that easy. Couples should engage in sexual activities they mutually agree on. You're not single anymore. This isn't MY sex life and HIS sex life - this is OUR sex life. This all must be agreed on upon. Then the fun begins...fun doesn't exist where resentments lie...


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

SouthernMiss said:


> And I find it interesting that you interpreted my post to say that men who watch porn are animals. I specifically stated that men who watch porn are not bad men, and it has a natural appeal for most men.
> 
> You're the one who seems to have an emotional issue surrounding porn. To an extreme degree...you are very defensive of it. Why does it bother you if someone doesn't like porn? I am a "porn hater?" lol That is so silly. I do not hate porn or people who star in porn or people who watch porn. I do not, however, like porn for myself...hell I'd rather make my own collection with my husband if anything lol...WAY more fun...and I do not want porn to be part of my relationship. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Is porn required viewing or something? Did I miss the memo?
> 
> ...


Porn and attitudes toward it within a relationship are, I believe, symptoms rather than causes.

It might indicate that one spouse is not comfortable in sharing a side of their sexuality openly with their spouse; it might mean that one spouse is not getting enough sex but does not like to bring it up.

To get hung up on porn is a classic case of "shooting the messenger".


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## SouthernMiss (Apr 25, 2013)

Grayson said:


> While I can understand and agree - at least to a point - with the sentiment here, allow me to explain my disconnect with part of this idea.
> 
> What it basically boils down to is one partner being so upset by a genre of entertainment that the other enjoys, that it causes them such distress.
> 
> ...


You really see porn and cooking shows as being the equivalent? I mean, if you do...ok...but surely you understand that sex is a very powerful experience. It can literally be a mystical, spiritual experience. Sex is SO much more than what you're giving it credit for. Sure, it can be fun, funny, light, goofy, etc. I'm not saying it's only a heavy thing. But it is POWERFUL. 

I do see this as part of the problem with porn. It tends to cheapen sex. Watch it enough, and soon you'll see it as nothing more significant than a cheesy sitcom. That is disturbing. 

I'm not a prude...I'm a kinky kind of girl. I absolutely love sex, and I have enjoyed it as far back I can remember...even when I wasn't 100% sure what it was...I was aware of it somehow. I have had many partners, and I have enjoyed many experiences. I am a regular at the sex shop, and though my husband and I have been sexually active for about 4 years...we literally still find something new to do pretty much every week. There are endless, wonderful possibilities. Sex is a gift. Sex is life. 

Sex should not be made to be as meaningless as a Rachel Ray 30 Minute Dinner episode or whatever. 

I am not uptight at all about sex. I don't like porn. You don't have to be a Fundamentalist Christian to feel that way. In fact, I'm a very liberal girl. Just because someone doesn't like porn, it doesn't mean anybody taught them it was bad or they have hang ups. 

It may mean they have many perfectly reasonable, rational...and yes, emotional...but SOUND reasons for that opinion. Sex evokes passion - it should! So, then, logically...porn should evoke passionate opinions. 

People aren't bad because they like or view porn. Some perfectly adjusted people dislike porn. These two statements can co-exist truthfully.

I do agree that if people would just TALK about these things, a lot of problems could be avoided. That is a very sentient statement!


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

SouthernMiss said:


> You really see porn and cooking shows as being the equivalent?


In the context of them both being genres of entertainment, yes. You'll note that I never equated the specific content. But then, I also never said the specific content of a sitcom was equivalent to that of a cooking show, either.



> I mean, if you do...ok...but surely you understand that sex is a very powerful experience. It can literally be a mystical, spiritual experience. Sex is SO much more than what you're giving it credit for.


You're assuming I don't give sex credit for the power you describe.



> I do see this as part of the problem with porn. It tends to cheapen sex. Watch it enough, and soon you'll see it as nothing more significant than a cheesy sitcom. That is disturbing.


Only if you let it. Does listening to recorded music cheapen the act of actually making music? Where you say I don't give sex credit for its power, I'd say you give porn far more power than it has.



> Sex should not be made to be as meaningless as a Rachel Ray 30 Minute Dinner episode or whatever.


Then don't let it. I've watched and read porn for more years than not in my life. It's an enjoyable, pleasant diversion, but it doesn't hold a candle to sex itself. Yes, some give I more weight and importance, but that's on them.

I am not uptight at all about sex. I don't like porn. You don't have to be a Fundamentalist Christian to feel that way. In fact, I'm a very liberal girl. Just because someone doesn't like porn, it doesn't mean anybody taught them it was bad or they have hang ups. 

It may mean they have many perfectly reasonable, rational...and yes, emotional...but SOUND reasons for that opinion. Sex evokes passion - it should! So, then, logically...porn should evoke passionate opinions. 

People aren't bad because they like or view porn. Some perfectly adjusted people dislike porn. These two statements can co-exist truthfully.[/quote]

Never said otherwise. You'll notice in my early post to Maricha that I mentioned my ideas on the nature of the problems some have with porn called for gross generalizations. 



> I do agree that if people would just TALK about these things, a lot of problems could be avoided. That is a very sentient statement!


Absolutely!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

My husband and I only watch porn together.

We don't watch it alone because HE doesn't want ME watching it alone, so in order to stop me from doing it, we made the "only together" rule.

So does that mean he is trying to control my thoughts?

No, he just doesn't want me trolling around the internet with a free pass to possibly end up on a sex-cam. Contrary to what people might think are traditional "he wants, she wants" issues, I am the one in our marriage who is more likely to get lost down a rabbit hole somewhere in porn-land.

Yet, when I chime in and say "it really should be discussed and agreed upon in marriage" most men assume I'm on the "porn is bad!" band wagon, instead of possibly considering there could be any other point to it.


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

Terry_CO said:


> "All men watch porn, scientists find"
> Scientists at the University of Montreal launched a search for men who had never looked at pornography - but couldn't find any ... Researchers were conducting a study comparing the views of men in their 20s who had never been exposed to pornography with regular users.
> 
> But their project stumbled at the first hurdle when they failed to find a single man who had not seen it.
> ...


Whilst sad, that everyone has seen porn, and you would be hard pressed to find any grown man and woman who has never seen it. The facts are that many people choose not to view. They have obviously seen it, actually many magazines have pornographic images on the front, so very hard to avoid. 

There are men and women who actively avoid porn, and some that aren't bothered either way.


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## anonim (Apr 24, 2012)

this isnt even a porn issue. A spouse is doing something the other spouse doesnt like. Take it from there.


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

SouthernMiss said:


> And I find it interesting that you interpreted my post to say that men who watch porn are animals. I specifically stated that men who watch porn are not bad men, and it has a natural appeal for most men.


You said:



SouthernMiss said:


> But men, contrary to popular opinion, are not animals. Many CAN and DO simply elect not to watch it.


So, by implication those who choose to watch it are animals.



SouthernMiss said:


> Porn is ok in a marriage if both spouses agree it is. If one party does not, or neither party does, it isn't.


So, if I don't agree with my with my wife leaving the house without wearing a veil she is obliged to wear a veil? That rational doesn't work.



SouthernMiss said:


> but I have a lot of issues with the porn industry, and I think it hurts people.


Lots of industries hurt people. The oil industry, the arms industry, the diamond industry. That doesn't mean the end-users condone the hurt. Do all people who wear diamonds condone the exploitation of Liberian diamond miners? No. Does wearing clothes mean you condone the use of child labour? Of course not.




SouthernMiss said:


> It's one thing to like porn. It's another thing to like porn enough that you're willing to hurt your spouse's heart in order to view it. If he knows it hurts you, he should demonstrate his love for you by not viewing it. That's a small thing to do for the woman he loves above all else, isn't it?


If a woman loves her partner enough she should allow him this small thing which makes his life more tolerable. It is a small thing to do for the man she loves above all else. 



SouthernMiss said:


> You're the one who seems to have an emotional issue surrounding porn. To an extreme degree...you are very defensive of it. Why does it bother you if someone doesn't like porn?


It doesn't bother me in the slightest of someone doesn't like porn. Why would it? It bothers me when people demonise porn users by implying (in your case) that we condone hurting people, lack respect and behave like animals if we choose to use it. Or in other cases where posters have said that porn users condone the exploitation of women, are more likely to be unfaithful and are more likely to rape. My reaction to anti-porn posts comes from the continued verbal abuse of those who use porn. 



SouthernMiss said:


> If we had dated and he had told me liked porn, I probably would not have continued to see him.


But you don't hate porn.




SouthernMiss said:


> Of course, we can't always make our spouses happy. But on some matters, we can. And if it's within reasonable, healthy boundaries that you can act to stop your partner from being upset or hurt...you damn well should. If porn is SO important to you that you would rather keep watching it KNOWING it is causing your lifemate distress...that is cold and mean and indicates an unhealthy relationship to porn AND an unhealthy attitude toward your partner.


There are many men who feel distressed, upset and hurt that their partner earns more than them, so by your logic she is obliged to give up her job. Otherwise she is cold, mean and has an unhealthy attitude to her partner. Right?


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

Chris989 said:


> Porn and attitudes toward it within a relationship are, I believe, symptoms rather than causes.
> 
> It might indicate that one spouse is not comfortable in sharing a side of their sexuality openly with their spouse; it might mean that one spouse is not getting enough sex but does not like to bring it up.
> 
> To get hung up on porn is a classic case of "shooting the messenger".


What about threesomes and attitudes towards those? Or is that different because its physical? It is however perfectly acceptable to many.

I am not comfortable sharing my secret penchant for threesomes with my spouse, so I hide it, I think about it all the time, after all I'm only a woman, i can't help myself. I'm a very sexual person.

In fact because I have had to hide it from him, I secretly hide it from him and seek them out behind his back. Plus I could have sex three times a day, but I don't want to hurt him by bringing it up. 

Don't get hung up on threesomes though, they are just the messenger. The real issue is my spouses closed mindedness. 

Or perhaps just maybe he has valid reasons why he doesn't want threesomes in our relationship. Perhaps I should have discussed this in depth prior to marraige. And perhaps I should realise that I'm committed to him and his feelings and ideas and comfort level matter as mich as mine.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

> I see no distinction between an "addiction" and a "habit". A habit is simply an addiction that is being labeled as a habit. Things that are pleasurable are "habit forming", or "addicting".


Actually, there is a difference:-


Addiction – Is the continued involvement with an activity, chemical or substance _despite _ongoing negative consequences.


Habit – Repeated action or behavior that may be unconscious


Compulsion – if considerable discomfort is experienced if the behavior is not performed.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> The "research" stated that they were looking for those who had never been exposed to it. I can honestly say that, unless one of the neighbor boys have had a magazine or something that they have shown around to the other kids here, my 12 year old son has NOT been exposed to it. The kids don't go into the bathrooms, huddled together here. They monitor the kids going into and out of the bathrooms. No backpacks, no reading materials, nothing allowed in there. The ONLY item allowed is the hall pass, during school hours. And between breakfast/arrival at school and school starting, the kids have to put their things int heir lockers/classrooms before they can use the bathrooms. I got that information from both my 12 year old and my 6 year old, who attend the same school.
> 
> We are very open with our kids. Sex is not a taboo subject. If the neighbor kid was showing him pictures, he'd say so. This is the kind of honest communication we have with our kids. Funny thing... I asked my son about any feelings regarding even glimpses of naked women on movies (breasts only)... doesn't affect him. I think that may be due to the fact that he was always there when I was breastfeeding his siblings.


I understand you are sincere about this, but at the same time this raises the hair on the back of my neck.

The similarity with totalitarian regimes is unbelievable. This is looking like brainwashing. I saw a documentary about a soviet boy who reported his father for 'conspiracy against the state', that was about keeping some of the harvest for themselves. He became an example for the whole soviet youth movement. Children were indoctrinated to report if there parents went to church to mention one example.

Horrible society.


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## jaunty (Apr 26, 2013)

Pame said:


> So we just been married for 3 months (not a long time to think he needs "something" new) plus we were in a long distance relation ship for more than a year, so I was thinking he would not have eyes for other women . He is 28 and I'm 24.
> 2 months ago I opened his ipad and saw picts of "legal teens" which pissed me off. It made me feel like I was not enough for him, (I don not have a great self esteem, that he needs another type of visual stimulation.
> I told him how I feel about this, and he says this "art" for him, he appreciates the beauty of the women body, nothing sexual, he would not do it again.
> He told me he has been downloading magazines like playboy, maxim since he liked the articles they post there, and some sports magazines and magazines for me But today when I opened the app, he got 2 porn magazines, one of legal teens (they masturbate and show absolutely everything. I think is kind of sick, they look really young) and another with guys and girls having sex and cumming in each other mouth.
> ...


I a male, married since 9 years and I am watching a lot of porn.
A large part of my harddisk is filled with porn clips actually. That doesn't affect the relationship with my wife. Au-contraire, it boosts the sexual life. When I told her I am watching porn I asked her if she would be interested in watching with me, so we started to watch together and that turned out to be a great stimulent.
I don't think the fact that your husband is watching porn means he has less interest for you. he doesn't necessarily feel attracted to those females in the porn pics he just gets turned on by watching them (the pics). 
What if, while watching the porn, he imagines you are one of the "actresses" and that turns him on more?
Anyway, I think watching porn is OK, not only for men but for women as well. Within some limits (not talking here about very weird niches, animals porn or ilegal stuff ). As long as you enjoy it, it can only boost the sexual life.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

*LittleDeer* said:


> What about threesomes and attitudes towards those? Or is that different because its physical? It is however perfectly acceptable to many.
> 
> I am not comfortable sharing my secret penchant for threesomes with my spouse, so I hide it, I think about it all the time, after all I'm only a woman, i can't help myself. I'm a very sexual person.
> 
> ...


I don't wish to be rude, but what on Earth are you going on about?


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

See_Listen_Love said:


> I understand you are sincere about this, but at the same time this raises the hair on the back of my neck.
> 
> The similarity with totalitarian regimes is unbelievable. This is looking like brainwashing. I saw a documentary about a soviet boy who reported his father for 'conspiracy against the state', that was about keeping some of the harvest for themselves. He became an example for the whole soviet youth movement. Children were indoctrinated to report if there parents went to church to mention one example.
> 
> Horrible society.


Ok, let me explain something to you here. The school monitors the kids going into the bathroom for one reason... threats. Just last week, there was a homemade bomb in the bathroom of a local middle school. This is a very small town. Population here is MAYBE 1000 people... maybe. A high school student was dared...DARED to put one in the bathroom at the middle school. Actually, there were two. One in the bathroom, one in a locker. These things were made with soda bottles and chemicals. So, yea, they get monitored.

As for my kids actually talking to us... why is open communication with my own children a bad thing? People complain that parents don't talk about important things with their kids, including sex... but then when a parent DOES have open communication with their children, it's bad? How does that make any sense?

So, how does any of this look like brainwashing? Seriously? Because I refuse to allow that garbage into my own home? Because my kids will discuss this stuff with me, willingly? Or is it because I actually care enough to know what my kids are up to, like my parents did with us girls, and not let them run the roads like many kids do now? Again I ask... how is this brainwashing?


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

Maricha who is having these conversations with your boys? You or your husband? Meaning the porn.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

richie33 said:


> Maricha who is having these conversations with your boys? You or your husband? Meaning the porn.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Both of us. Why? Just for the hell of it... would you ask a single mother, who has sons, if she is the one having "the sex talk" or "the porn talk" with her boys? It makes no difference whether it is mother or father who has the talks with the kids when the parents are in agreement on the subject.


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

Personally I think it makes a difference. But whatever works in your house more power to you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

richie33 said:


> Personally I think it makes a difference. But whatever works in your house more power to you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Really? So...there's a difference between my son telling me something and telling his dad the same thing? Who knew?


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

When it comes to say a teenage boy? Yes it does. A boy at 14 would feel way more comfortable talking to a father about masterbation and sexual urges than a mother.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Faiora (Apr 20, 2013)

richie33 said:


> Personally I think it makes a difference. But whatever works in your house more power to you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





Maricha75 said:


> Really? So...there's a difference between my son telling me something and telling his dad the same thing? Who knew?


I actually do think it makes a difference - sort of. I think it depends a lot on which parent works (or whether both do), who typically drives decision-making on a given subject, who has more experience/interest in a given subject, etc. 

We're talking about porn, which in most cases depicts naked women. If it occurs to a child that his mother is a woman (just like those in porn), there is a potential for either discomfort or respectful avoidance of the conversation. Also, most parents instill gender identity into their kids (however unpurposefully), so by a certain age they see some things as male, some as female (actually, not just parents - everyone your kid interacts with). 

I think kids are going to have a different relationship with each parent. There will be things your kid would rather talk about with one parent than the other. No big deal.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Faiora said:


> I think kids are going to have a different relationship with each parent. There will be things your kid would rather talk about with one parent than the other. No big deal.


And right now, at ages 4 (son), 6 (daughter), and 12 (son), all are comfortable with both their dad and me. I know there will be a point where they will gravitate more toward one than the other. I agree, it's no big deal. But now? When my kids like to, and are willing to, speak openly with both of us... there's no way I'm going to dissuade that.

As for the subject of porn, my husband and I have stressed one thing over all else. It doesn't come into our house. I don't care who has it, who brings it in, etc. If it is found in our house, it goes in the dumpster. And yes, that has been stated to our son. If he wants to view it in the comfort of his bedroom, he's free to do so: when he's an adult, out on his own. Until that time, it will not be brought into our house, period. But, that is our position on it. And, since it is our house, it is our rules.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Ok, let me explain something to you here. The school monitors the kids going into the bathroom for one reason... threats. Just last week, there was a homemade bomb in the bathroom of a local middle school. This is a very small town. Population here is MAYBE 1000 people... maybe. A high school student was dared...DARED to put one in the bathroom at the middle school. Actually, there were two. One in the bathroom, one in a locker. These things were made with soda bottles and chemicals. So, yea, they get monitored.
> 
> OK, I thought it was about monitoring because of sexual reasons, this is different.
> 
> ...


The brainwashing is in the extremity of it all. If they feel pressure to say what you want to hear and loose their own identity because of that.

You ideas about men and porn, and in these modern times women are catching up by the way, feel to me like you choose a rigid truth ideal over accepting reality. So I cannot see if they are expressing their own opinions or just the 'group truth'. 

Maybe this does not apply to you and your family, but the examples of all kinds of sects are in my memory. I hope you are more of the democratic kind, and then I wish you well with all that communication.


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

Chris989 said:


> I don't wish to be rude, but what on Earth are you going on about?


I thought it was quite clear. But I'll clarify.

Sometimes people don't want porn, threesomes or any number of things in their marriages for good reason. 

Many people love to use things, many people gamble, smoke pot, watch porn, have threesomes, have a multitude of one night stands, get into fights, spend too much etc etc. hiding theses and keeping something a secret for fear you will be judged by your spouse is ridiculous. We all get judged on what we do and don't do.

Pretending that men have it bad because they can't " be themselves" and watch porn is ridiculous. You could use that excuse about just about anything. It is reasonable for people to be honest, to look at their actions, whatever they are and see if they are in fact enhancing the relationship.

If I hide something from my spouse Why?? Is it a reasonable thing for me to do? Would they have valid objections to it, that would make sense if we replaced the issue or action with something else? 

I don't believe it's sexually healthy to be so hung up on porn that you would put it above your relationship with your spouse, even if it hurts them. Fairly comprehendible I think.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

johnnycomelately said:


> Lots of industries hurt people. The oil industry, the arms industry, the diamond industry. That doesn't mean the end-users condone the hurt. Do all people who wear diamonds condone the exploitation of Liberian diamond miners? No. Does wearing clothes mean you condone the use of child labour? Of course not.


Yes it does! You can choose to bury your head in the sand and try to refuse the responsibility, but if you are supporting the harm of others, you are complicit. The blood is on your hands too.


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

always_alone said:


> Yes it does! You can choose to bury your head in the sand and try to refuse the responsibility, but if you are supporting the harm of others, you are complicit. The blood is on your hands too.


Ok, so every person who wears clothes is complicit in the exploitation of children.


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

johnnycomelately said:


> Ok, so every person who wears clothes is complicit in the exploitation of children.


No, but some do, and it pays to be aware of where everything you use comes from. I try very hard to buy ethically traded products.

You can care about more thne one issue at a time.

Good way to deflect from the real issue though.


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## SouthernMiss (Apr 25, 2013)

always_alone said:


> Yes it does! You can choose to bury your head in the sand and try to refuse the responsibility, but if you are supporting the harm of others, you are complicit. The blood is on your hands too.


I agree. I am seeing - more and more - that some porn consumers have fluid morals. Personally, I don't buy my gas from certain companies nor do I buy "blood diamonds."

If you support an industry that hurts people...with your time, attention and dollars...you SUPPORT those industries.You help them hurt people. I'm not ok with that. Is that really so bad?

I'm an "activist" at heart and regularly have a long list of companies I don't do business with.

You ARE to blame if you financially support a company you KNOW hurts people. There's no justification for that.

There is no "pass" for that. If you do it, own it. Say you don't care. Say it doesn't matter to you. Just admit it.

Those women you who are on film having sex for money? They are precious, important people who don't deserve to be exploited for your orgasm. They deserve to be treated with dignity. Their sexuality deserves to be treated as precious. They are not nameless, faceless, random *****s. They are people of value who, more often than not, come from very sad backgrounds and struggle still today.

How many smart, emotionally healthy, well-balanced, well-educated, spiritually fullfilled people do YOU know who have sex on cam for cash? 

I'm not saying it should be illegal. I'm just saying I don't have a high regard for people who exploit their desperate circumstances so he/she can cum.

But don't assume everybody leads such an unprincipled life. 

Many people don't look, don't partake, or have stopped partaking of porn because we just honestly believe...based on drug and HIV stats alone...that "sex for sale"...hurts both men and women and many, many marriages.

Sex is such a powerful thing. It's the essence of life. It is beautiful and fluid and fulfilling. It's so much more than some people want to cheapen it into being.

I don't think people who watch are bad people. I do think they are quite misguided. And I do think people who perpetuate the lie that porn harms no one...are liars..or tragically misinformed.

People are not meant to be used that way. People are meant to be loved and valued. Absolutely no one is dispensable.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

SouthernMiss said:


> How many smart, emotionally healthy, well-balanced, well-educated, spiritually fullfilled people do YOU know who have sex on cam for cash?


Not to disturb your conversation, but...

eh... I don't know _anyone_ who is smart, emotionally healthy, well-balanced, well-educated, spiritually fullfilled.


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## SouthernMiss (Apr 25, 2013)

whoops...


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## SouthernMiss (Apr 25, 2013)

See_Listen_Love said:


> Not to disturb your conversation, but...
> 
> eh... I don't know _anyone_ who is smart, emotionally healthy, well-balanced, well-educated, spiritually fullfilled.


Ok I misunderstood your statement. Apologies.

I know a plethora of people...male and female...who are smart, emotionally healthy, well-balanced, well-educated and spiritually fulfilled. 

I'm surprised you don't.


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

*LittleDeer* said:


> No, but some do, and it pays to be aware of where everything you use comes from. I try very hard to buy ethically traded products.


Exactly. I don't watch porn that is illegal. 



*LittleDeer* said:


> Good way to deflect from the real issue though.


Actually you have raised this issue time and time again. So when you raise it it is because you are a moral person, when I raise it I am trying to 'deflect' from the real issue.


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

SouthernMiss said:


> I agree. I am seeing - more and more - that some porn consumers have fluid morals. Personally, I don't buy my gas from certain companies nor do I buy "blood diamonds."
> 
> 
> If you support an industry that hurts people...with your time, attention and dollars...you SUPPORT those industries.You help them hurt people. I'm not ok with that. Is that really so bad?


And I don't use porn that is illegally produced. You can't condemn all diamond buyers because some diamond producers exploit people, by the same token you can't condemn all porn users because some porn producers exploit people. Or is porn a special case?

The best way to end exploitation in porn is to have it out in the open, controlled and regulated. Condemning all porn just drives use and production underground and makes abuse more likely.




SouthernMiss said:


> I'm an "activist" at heart and regularly have a long list of companies I don't do business with.
> 
> You ARE to blame if you financially support a company you KNOW hurts people. There's no justification for that.


I absolutely agree with you. I only watch legally produced porn. I would never support a company that I know hurts people. 



SouthernMiss said:


> There is no "pass" for that. If you do it, own it. Say you don't care. Say it doesn't matter to you. Just admit it.


I do care. I am an activist too and have risked my life for my principles. You should own your prejudice against porn, instead of trying to cloak it in faux-activism.




SouthernMiss said:


> Those women you who are on film having sex for money? They are precious, important people who don't deserve to be exploited for your orgasm.


Yet you insult them by assuming the have no power to decide for themselves.


SouthernMiss said:


> They deserve to be treated with dignity. Their sexuality deserves to be treated as precious. They are not nameless, faceless, random *****s. They are people of value who, more often than not, come from very sad backgrounds and struggle still today.


I treat everyone with dignity and respect. What makes you say I don't?



SouthernMiss said:


> How many smart, emotionally healthy, well-balanced, well-educated, spiritually fullfilled people do YOU know who have sex on cam for cash?


I don't watch live cams. There is no certification process and there is no way of knowing where they are produced.



SouthernMiss said:


> I'm not saying it should be illegal. I'm just saying I don't have a high regard for people who exploit their desperate circumstances so he/she can cum.


I completely disagree. Exploitation is, and should be, illegal in Western Europe and the USA.



SouthernMiss said:


> But don't assume everybody leads such an unprincipled life.


You said that men who watch porn aren't bad, now they are 'unprincipled' which is your real opinion? Tell me what is unprincipled about enjoying watching people have sex?



SouthernMiss said:


> I don't think people who watch are bad people. I do think they are quite misguided. And I do think people who perpetuate the lie that porn harms no one...are liars..or tragically misinformed.


If you are going to call me a liar, as well as disrespectful, unprincipled (but not bad, of course) why don't you come up with some hard evidence of the damage that legal porn causes? 



SouthernMiss said:


> People are not meant to be used that way. People are meant to be loved and valued. Absolutely no one is dispensable.


Again you degrade the participants by insisting that they are not self-determining adults who can decide for themselves.


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

I read the argument about exploitation over and over here. Who is being exploited? Women in general or the women who chose to make a sex tape or both? I understand how women/men do not like porn. I just don't understand how a adult who choses to go into the adult entertainment business on her own free will is being exploited.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

richie33 said:


> I read the argument about exploitation over and over here. Who is being exploited? Women in general or the women who chose to make a sex tape or both? I understand how women/men do not like porn. I just don't understand how a adult who choses to go into the adult entertainment business on her own free will is being exploited.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Some people don't accept that these people are self-determining adults. It is a very prejudiced point of view.


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

johnnycomelately said:


> Exactly. I don't watch porn that is illegal.
> 
> Actually you have raised this issue time and time again. So when you raise it it is because you are a moral person, when I raise it I am trying to 'deflect' from the real issue.


Lol, just because something is legal, doesn't mean it should be or that It's ethical. 

And... Umm no I don't talk about sweat shops instead of relationship issues / porn. Seems another good way to go about your business not caring so long as you get what you want. 

I just don't understand how people rationalise it. It's pretty sad to me.


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

richie33 said:


> I read the argument about exploitation over and over here. Who is being exploited? Women in general or the women who chose to make a sex tape or both? I understand how women/men do not like porn. I just don't understand how a adult who choses to go into the adult entertainment business on her own free will is being exploited.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I believe from all I have read and studied from the subject that most of the women in porn (on average-so not all but the vast majority) are young, many start in the sex industry under 18, many very very young. Most are not educated, most are from underprivileged backgrounds. I have read from porn stars themselves that every woman they ever met in the industry was sexually abused, they are just told not to talk about it, and most are drug or alcohol addicted or both. 

If you think they freely choose the industry why isn't it just as full of well educated, wealthy, non sexually abused, healthy women free from addiction? :scratchhead:

If someone is willing to do something that we would never want our loved ones(daughters, wives etc) doing, because to them it seems like their best choice, rather then take advantage and kicking them while they are down, we should probably ask ourselves why it's their best choice? and importantly what we can do about sexual abuse, poverty and education, so that every child has more equity and real life chances.


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## Omgitsjoe (Oct 1, 2012)

My wife has nooo issues whatsoever with me watching porn ....... helloooooo she is the benefactor by me doing this !!! It's not easy for me to " save " my excitement but I've learned to be patient and given her the loving she deserves


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

So from what you are saying is that the porn industry is full of underage girls?
I don't believe that's true at all. Maybe in some other countries but that's not how it
is in the US. They have to show ID ans prove they are over the age of 18. A billion dollar
business is not going to take a risk on a young girl. The most famous case of that happening
was in the 1980's with Traci Lords who fooled the industry with fake id. The industry is way
more regulated than what you depict.
One the best selling porn DVDs are from the MILF catergory. These are women in their 30's and 40's.
Are they being exploited? At that age they must have a clear idea of who they are.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

*LittleDeer* said:


> Lol, just because something is legal, doesn't mean it should be or that It's ethical.


That is the crux of it. You believe that depictions of sex are unethical. Why not just say that instead of pretending you dislike it for other reasons?


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

*LittleDeer* said:


> I believe from all I have read and studied from the subject that most of the women in porn (on average-so not all but the vast majority) are young, many start in the sex industry under 18


That is just false.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

johnnycomelately said:


> Ok, so every person who wears clothes is complicit in the exploitation of children.


Every person who wears clothes made in certain factories or by certain companies, yes. Fortunately for those of us in colder climes and who can't sew, there are still some companies that maintain ethical practices.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

johnnycomelately said:


> Some people don't accept that these people are self-determining adults. It is a very prejudiced point of view.


There is self determination, and there is self determination. Yes most sex trade workers probably "choose" their trade. But often these "choices" come from fear, poverty and utter desperation.

Not always. I'm willing to accept that not all pornographic portrayals are inherently immoral. It does depend on the circumstances and context.

My take is that the closest analogy for industry is organ sales. Sure people who sell a kidney are free adults choosing to do so. But really, who chooses that? You have to be very desperate.

Some people donate their organs freely. But, selling and giving it away are very different, and the context is everything.


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

always_alone said:


> Every person who wears clothes made in certain factories or by certain companies, yes. Fortunately for those of us in colder climes and who can't sew, there are still some companies that maintain ethical practices.


Littledeer and Southernmiss's assertion is that because there is some exploitation in porn, all porn users condone exploitation. If that is true for porn it is true of clothes, diamonds and all other products. That was the point I was trying to make. 

There is nothing unethical about wearing ethically produced clothes, just as there is nothing unethical about watching ethically produced porn. If they believe that there is no such thing as ethically produced porn, they should come out and say that. 

What they are not being honest about is their visceral emotional dislike of porn, so they try to come up with ethical/medical/scientific arguments.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

I have worked in places where every scrap of self esteem of some staff has been taken by bullying managers. Where 16 hour days are the norm and where workers have no rights as they are sacked if they try to assert them.

I have seen places of work where the death rates are the highest of all except deep sea fishermen and helped with the wealth this produces.

I have seen workers driven to drugs, addiction and suicide.

Do you who are moral swear that you will no longer use the products of these workplaces if I can prove these assertions?


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## anonim (Apr 24, 2012)

*LittleDeer* said:


> No, but some do, and it pays to be aware of where everything you use comes from. I try very hard to buy ethically traded products.
> 
> You can care about more thne one issue at a time.
> 
> Good way to deflect from the real issue though.


actually i think he makes a valid point. What if the porn watcher tries very hard to avoid businesses that exploit actors/actresses just like you do with buying other products?


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## anonim (Apr 24, 2012)

johnnycomelately said:


> You should own your prejudice against porn, instead of trying to cloak it in faux-activism.


This.:iagree:


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

johnnycomelately said:


> That is just false.


No it isn't, it's true and just be ause you say it's false doesn't make it so.

They often start off in prostituation and as strippers and there are still underage girls used in porn.

And I love how you clipped out the rest of my post and skipped over it. There must be validity to the rest of it, even in your eyes.


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

Chris989 said:


> I have worked in places where every scrap of self esteem of some staff has been taken by bullying managers. Where 16 hour days are the norm and where workers have no rights as they are sacked if they try to assert them.
> 
> I have seen places of work where the death rates are the highest of all except deep sea fishermen and helped with the wealth this produces.
> 
> ...


Yes. And I think it should be illegal to exploit people. 

To be sexually exploited is a whole different level though. I think we all know that.


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

johnnycomelately said:


> Littledeer and Southernmiss's assertion is that because there is some exploitation in porn, all porn users condone exploitation. If that is true for porn it is true of clothes, diamonds and all other products. That was the point I was trying to make.
> 
> There is nothing unethical about wearing ethically produced clothes, just as there is nothing unethical about watching ethically produced porn. If they believe that there is no such thing as ethically produced porn, they should come out and say that.
> 
> What they are not being honest about is their visceral emotional dislike of porn, so they try to come up with ethical/medical/scientific arguments.


I have lots of reasons I don't like porn. 

You don't get to decide for others why they don't like something.

I have ethical and moral reasons I object to porn. 

I really do believe that if women used porn and treated men with the same amount of disrespect as some men do with women and as women are in porn, and as nothing more then a few holes and a penis, if women turned to porn and hid it, if women asked men to be more like porn stars and fantasised about young men with huge d!cks many times a day, if women admitted to judging every single man they met sexually first and foremost and let their mind wander and wonder as to the size of every single mans penis. If they told their husbands they needed sexual variety and they would never stop thinking about all those huge hard C0cks. Let their husbands know that young men had it going on, and they had no chance at being as attractive as the young hot guys in porn or on the street... And so on. 

Nothing wrong with not liking porn, no matter the reason. 

Mine are multiple. I have never even been in a relationship where porn has been an issue, I've never had a man choose porn over me, but I can imagine for any man or woman who is replaced by porn or anything else that must be painful. 

I also believe in human pair bonding and I think the connection is lessened when you orgasm to others and release your oxytocin with porn instead of your partner, I think it weakens your bond and isn't healthy. 


There are so many reasons and to me they are all valid. 

Just like there are many valid reasons my SO doesn't want a multitude of other things in our relationships.


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## anonim (Apr 24, 2012)

*LittleDeer* said:


> I have lots of reasons I don't like porn. *and you have the right to those, but your personal subjective reasons dont mean that porn on the whole is bad or wrong.*
> 
> You don't get to decide for others why they don't like something. *And nor should you decide that its wrong for others to like something based on your personal subjective opinions.*
> 
> ...


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

*LittleDeer* said:


> There must be validity to the rest of it, even in your eyes.


I doubt it. What you usually do is post slander until someone proves that it is false, as with the porn making men more likely to rape thing, then you move on to something else.


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

*LittleDeer* said:


> I believe from all I have read and studied from the subject that most of the women in porn (on average-so not all but the vast majority) are young, many start in the sex industry under 18, many very very young. Most are not educated, most are from underprivileged backgrounds. I have read from porn stars themselves that every woman they ever met in the industry was sexually abused, they are just told not to talk about it, and most are drug or alcohol addicted or both.
> 
> If you think they freely choose the industry why isn't it just as full of well educated, wealthy, non sexually abused, healthy women free from addiction? :scratchhead:
> 
> If someone is willing to do something that we would never want our loved ones(daughters, wives etc) doing, because to them it seems like their best choice, rather then take advantage and kicking them while they are down, we should probably ask ourselves why it's their best choice? and importantly what we can do about sexual abuse, poverty and education, so that every child has more equity and real life chances.


So anybody who has been abused, has had drug problems or is not well educated has no right to self-determination? Why do you denigrate these people?


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

*LittleDeer* said:


> Yes. And I think it should be illegal to exploit people.
> 
> To be sexually exploited is a whole different level though. I think we all know that.


Ok that would be banks and the construction industry off your list.

I look forward to your next post made from a self made hut in the woods from where you may no longer use money.


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

johnnycomelately said:


> So anybody who has been abused, has had drug problems or is not well educated has no right to self-determination? Why do you denigrate these people?


I don't think you quite understood what I was saying. If you read unbelievables post, my point was under what circumstances do these people "freely choose". 

I would be inclined to agree with you if everyone were truly equal, and everyone had equal access to education, good parenting etc however we know some people are in desperate situations or that they would definitely make other choices if they had access to all the information and decent alternatives. 

But privileged people like to believe that everyone has free choice. 

We don't live in a magical bubble unfortunately.


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

Chris989 said:


> Ok that would be banks and the construction industry off your list.
> 
> I look forward to your next post made from a self made hut in the woods from where you may no longer use money.


Depends on the bank. But yes many organisations and institutions do exploit people. 

I'm not Ok with any of it. 

I am a socialist capitalist. I do think people should always come before profits. I wish more people felt the same.

However I'm pretty sure that most people would rather be exploited in so many other ways rather then sexually. 

Let's get a woman who has been with 6 guys at once, had them cum all over her and in her and had it filmed. And let's compare her to a construction worker. Who is more respected do you think? I mean the name of her film is probably " Slu* takes it up the arse" whereas the guy is known as Rob the construction worker. 

If I or any one here had to choose for our daughters I'm sure none of us would choose the sex industry. And if given the choice between construction and the sex industry most would choose construction.


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

*LittleDeer* said:


> I don't think you quite understood what I was saying. If you read unbelievables post, my point was under what circumstances do these people "freely choose".
> 
> I would be inclined to agree with you if everyone were truly equal, and everyone had equal access to education, good parenting etc however we know some people are in desperate situations or that they would definitely make other choices if they had access to all the information and decent alternatives.
> 
> ...


Your post made a good case for better protection of children, a more rational drug policy and improved eduction, but that doesn't effect the ethics of porn itself.


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

johnnycomelately said:


> Your post made a good case for better protection of children, a more rational drug policy and improved eduction, but that doesn't effect the ethics of porn itself.


You keep telling your self that. 

There will always be people who are coming from a bad place to exploit them is not OK. 

IMO most porn actresses are seen as non people, they are used and exploited, fed drugs and alcohol and tossed aside 99.9% of the time if they refuse to do more and more degrading things. They are cum receptacles and sexual objects and degraded in just about the worst ways ever. 

If you don't think so, I'm sure you would have no trouble doing the same things these girls are asked to in the most popular and commonly downloaded porn. And have no trouble having it filmed and shown to anyone that would like to see it. 

Most people don't talk kindly of women who have multiple partners, they are called the town ****s etc, however I'm sure the women in porn who have threesomes, foursomes DP, ATM etc are very highly valued and regarded.


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

*LittleDeer* said:


> IMO most porn actresses are seen as non people,


Yes, by you. You have repeatedly denied that they are self-determining adults. You have described their work as 'trash' and you insist that they are all under-educated drug addicts.


*LittleDeer* said:


> they are used and exploited, fed drugs and alcohol and tossed aside 99.9% of the time if they refuse to do more and more degrading things


That is unrealistic. Can you produce any evidence to back that up? Again you refuse to accept that these people are self-determining adults. Is it realistic to believe that they are unable to defend themselves? Why do you treat them like children? 

Why would porn producers bother to pay them, sometimes huge salaries, if they can just drug them, exploit them and toss them aside? These are adults who have recourse to the law. It is plain irrational to suggest that 99.9% of the 1500 adult perfomers, in San Fernando valley alone, are drugged, abused and tossed aside.

Does Anna Arrowsmith, (feminist, porn producer and Liberal Democrat activist in the UK) drug women, exploit them and toss them aside? Did this fact escape the notice of the British press and her political opponents when she stood for election as a Member of Parliament? That is just not realistic. . 



*LittleDeer* said:


> They are cum receptacles and sexual objects and degraded in just about the worst ways ever.


Again, total disdain for these people and what they do. 



*LittleDeer* said:


> If you don't think so, I'm sure you would have no trouble doing the same things these girls are asked to in the most popular and commonly downloaded porn. And have no trouble having it filmed and shown to anyone that would like to see it.


I wouldn't be an accountant either. That proves nothing except adults have the right to choose whatever legal profession they want.




*LittleDeer* said:


> Most people don't talk kindly of women who have multiple partners, they are called the town ****s etc, however I'm sure the women in porn who have threesomes, foursomes DP, ATM etc are very highly valued and regarded.


You seem to know exactly how 'most people' think, how lucky they don't have to think for themselves. This is what psychologists call projection. I have no problem with women who have had multiple partners. It would be hypocritical to watch porn and then negatively judge women who have multiple partners.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

This is a country where religious purists define the public life:

Human Trafficking & Modern-day Slavery in Saudi Arabia

Abuse of the maids is extreme in Arab countries right at this moment. At contrast: A bare breast is about reason to stoning to death. Or something.

This is why I am very opposed against the damnification of all kinds of sexual freedom.

By the way, the countries with the most freedom have the least murders, teenage pregnancies, abortions, etc. etc.

The gospel of puritanism is not the gospel I believe in...


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

*LittleDeer* said:


> Depends on the bank. But yes many organisations and institutions do exploit people.
> 
> I'm not Ok with any of it.
> 
> ...


You made an assertion, not based on facts, that the porn industry is dangerous, leads to early death and that actors (only female ones, the males are never exploited by implication, but then again you know what men are like huh!) are 99.9% of the time fed drugs etc. etc.

Instead, the real facts of the matter are that the construction industry is very dangerous. People are exploited and they wind up dead a lot more than in other industries and, of course, one death is too much in any case.

A more pertinent question than the loaded and ill informed one that you posed is: "Would you rather your daughter (or son, forgot about that again didn't we?) was a LIVE porn actress or DEAD construction worker."

I know which I'd choose.

Ultimately, however, I want my daughters to be happy, so perhaps the best question to frame would be:
"Would you prefer your daughter (or son, oops there we go again) to be a happy porn actress or sad construction worker".

I'll let you answer that one.


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

johnnycomelately said:


> I doubt it. What you usually do is post slander until someone proves that it is false, as with the porn making men more likely to rape thing, then you move on to something else.


Post slander. :lol::rofl: show me where I've done that?
And you are the one who picks a part my posts and often only questions one tiny part that you think you can find fault with, and ignore the rest.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Chris989 said:


> You made an assertion, not based on facts, that the porn industry is dangerous, leads to early death and that actors (only female ones, the males are never exploited by implication, but then again you know what men are like huh!) are 99.9% of the time fed drugs etc. etc.
> 
> Instead, the real facts of the matter are that the construction industry is very dangerous. People are exploited and they wind up dead a lot more than in other industries and, of course, one death is too much in any case.
> 
> ...


I'll answer that one for myself. Given only those two choices, I'd choose the construction worker. Yea, I know, you're probably going to say "I can't believe you would choose your child to die in one profession or live in the other." Truth is, I'm not choosing it based on that. I am saying it based on the moral principles we are teaching our kids. We believe porn to be morally wrong to watch/read/etc, whether produced ethically or not. Some of you obviously disagree with that. That's your prerogative. You are not obligated to agree with my views any more than I am obligated to agree with yours. I wouldn't love my child any less for any choices made. It doesn't mean I would approve of his or her choice in profession if they chose to go into something we believe to be morally wrong.


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

*LittleDeer* said:


> Post slander. :lol::rofl: show me where I've done that?


For example men who watch porn are more likely to rape. That 99.9% of porn performers are drugged, abused and tossed aside, men who watch porn condone the abuse of women...and so on.



*LittleDeer* said:


> And you are the one who picks a part my posts and often only questions one tiny part that you think you can find fault with, and ignore the rest.


So you feel we are all obliged to answer every line of every post you make? Start your own thread about this and I will happily answer every assertion you make.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> I'll answer that one for myself. Given only those two choices, I'd choose the construction worker. Yea, I know, you're probably going to say "I can't believe you would choose your child to die in one profession or live in the other." Truth is, I'm not choosing it based on that. I am saying it based on the moral principles we are teaching our kids. We believe porn to be morally wrong to watch/read/etc, whether produced ethically or not. Some of you obviously disagree with that. That's your prerogative. You are not obligated to agree with my views any more than I am obligated to agree with yours. I wouldn't love my child any less for any choices made. It doesn't mean I would approve of his or her choice in profession if they chose to go into something we believe to be morally wrong.


Forgive me, but I probably agree with your stance, but you didn't say that you felt it was morally wrong. 

I have no issue with anyone disagreeing with porn on moral grounds, or any other, provided they are based either in fact or in something that is admitted to be opinion.

What I object to is when people who watch porn, or participate in it, are portrayed as a certain sort of person.

Thanks for your honesty and tenacity.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I've known more than one woman and a few guys who have stripped, gotten paid for sex, or were in porn.

All of them had been sexually abused (or raped, in one case).

One of them (female) was a sex addict and this is why she chose to be in the sex industry. She is also a meth addict. I can say of all the ones I've known, she has the least amount of regret associated with her money-for-sex choices in life...but being that she is high half the time, I'm not sure how she would feel if she wasn't.

None of the people I've known are making the kind of money that a lot of people seem to believe porn starts and strippers make.

Because of where these people I've known have been, I have heard some true horror stories. None of these people except the sex/meth addict have happy stories to share. They all felt completely degraded.

Yes, they made these choices of their own free will. But would they have chosen differently if they felt they had been dealt a better hand in life? All of them would have chosen differently, yes.

I have also known a few guys who dated these girls. The guys, no matter how open minded they are, have their own issues, too. It seems that once a gal has crossed that line into the sex industry, she has also tainted her own relationship life forever...and most have regrets about this, too.

Many of these women try to portray themselves as if being in the sex industry wasn't a big deal, that they are "normal", that they are happy. But when you get to talking to them, asking questions...it becomes obvious right away that they aren't happy, they do have regrets, and that putting on a happy face is the only way they can cope.

Maybe one way to think of it is this: can anyone reading this, male or female, try to think of the grossest person of either gender you can possibly imagine, and now imagine having to pretend you want to f*ck that person. I mean, you guys know how gross guys can be. Would YOU be ok with pretending to want to f*ck that guy? No matter how anyone might want to believe that these women are totally into what they are doing, just ask yourself if this is logical or not. Not all porn is between one hot female and one hot male, doing things that look fun. Sometimes instead, they ask you to do things that very few people would ever do willingly...and just because they pay you, doesn't mean you liked it and have no regrets.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> I've known more than one woman and a few guys who have stripped, gotten paid for sex, or were in porn.
> 
> All of them had been sexually abused (or raped, in one case).
> 
> ...


The mixed issues of levels of taste, quality, art and beauty are also applicable to subjects as 'food', or 'holiday resorts':

And then we don't condemn the one holiday paradises 
because 
- there exist dirty beaches full of waste, with ugly fat unhealthy people crowded under a cancer inducing heat of the sun.

And what about food, you could 'dirtyfy' all good food with arguments about the artificial fast food modern Americans are poisoned with.

Ultimately it's a choice what you want to see of the world and what your reality is. So I think the question of quality and beauty or ugliness distorts the discussion.


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## Sunshine Cadillac (Apr 30, 2013)

Pame said:


> So we just been married for 3 months (not a long time to think he needs "something" new) plus we were in a long distance relation ship for more than a year, so I was thinking he would not have eyes for other women . He is 28 and I'm 24.
> 2 months ago I opened his ipad and saw picts of "legal teens" which pissed me off. It made me feel like I was not enough for him, (I don not have a great self esteem, that he needs another type of visual stimulation.
> I told him how I feel about this, and he says this "art" for him, he appreciates the beauty of the women body, nothing sexual, he would not do it again.
> He told me he has been downloading magazines like playboy, maxim since he liked the articles they post there, and some sports magazines and magazines for me But today when I opened the app, he got 2 porn magazines, one of legal teens (they masturbate and show absolutely everything. I think is kind of sick, they look really young) and another with guys and girls having sex and cumming in each other mouth.
> ...


What if you both read the magazine together to help bring you closer? Or start the mood for you to become intimate if you shared the time together? I personally dont mind if my fiance watches porn, and he doesnt care if I do either; this this was something that we spoke about before and agree'd on. We enjoy watching porn together and I know that I am the only one that he thinks about if he needs a release and I am unable to provide it for him. 

Just a suggestion, good luck


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

Here is a research article,

The Porn Myth: Uncovering the Truth about Sex Stars | Science of Pornography | LiveScience



> The results of the research failed to support many common stereotypes. Most notably, the porn actresses were no more likely to report having been sexually abused as children than national averages or than a sample of demographically matched women Griffith and his colleagues recruited at a university and at an airport.
> 
> Porn actresses did report having sex for the first time at a younger age and having more partners (outside of work) than the typical woman, which is unsurprising, Griffith said, given that they likely got into the adult industry because they liked sex. (Of the 177 women surveyed, only one said she was coerced into a pornography career.) Sixty-nine percent of porn actresses ranked their enjoyment of sex as 10 out of 10, a rating given by only 32.8 percent of non-performers. [10 Surprising Sex Statistics]
> 
> Porn actresses were also more likely to report higher self-esteem than average women, another unsurprising finding, Griffith said.


There is need for more research is concluded here, but the little that is there indicates that some of the speculations in this thread by the opponents have no ground, other than personal experience or opinion.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

And here is the another article about this study

Pornography actors: a qualitative analysis of motivations and dislikes.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

"Ultimately it's a choice what you want to see of the world and what your reality is. So I think the question of quality and beauty or ugliness distorts the discussion."

Yes, this is completely true, in all cases. So as long as you and millions of other men want to "not see" the dangers to their own sex lives that can happen as a result of rampant porn use, they won't see it.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> "Ultimately it's a choice what you want to see of the world and what your reality is. So I think the question of quality and beauty or ugliness distorts the discussion."
> 
> Yes, this is completely true, in all cases. So as long as you and millions of other men want to "not see" the dangers to their own sex lives that can happen as a result of rampant porn use, they won't see it.



With the same logic: you could see the advantages of the sex industry for society if you would want to see it. The advantages are evident for who wants to see them, I would not like to enter that issue.


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## MeditMike80 (Dec 29, 2012)

I'm going to be honest and say that I really don't understand the big issue with porn. I look at porn a couple times a month - my wife knows this and has no issues with it, and she's recently started watching with me once in a while. For me, it gives me ideas of positions to try and use (note: no kind of weird acrobatic maneuvers) and for her I think it helps her realize she doesn't need to have such a repressed view of her own sexuality. Now, if someone's addicted to it and uses it in place of their spouse, that's a major problem.


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

johnnycomelately said:


> For example men who watch porn are more likely to rape. That 99.9% of porn performers are drugged, abused and tossed aside, men who watch porn condone the abuse of women...and so on.


It's amusing to me that to prove your point you have to twist what I say or change it all together. 
There are studies that show that people who regularly watch porn are less empathetic towards women. I think that has some damaging consequences for society's even if you don't.

Moreover port stars and producers admit to the drug and alcohol issues it's very well known. 


> So you feel we are all obliged to answer every line of every post you make? Start your own thread about this and I will happily answer every assertion you make.


No but it shows you are ignoring most of the stuff I post because you cannot argue to the contrary.


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

*LittleDeer* said:


> It's amusing to me that to prove your point you have to twist what I say or change it all together.
> There are studies that show that people who regularly watch porn are less empathetic towards women. I think that has some damaging consequences for society's even if you don't.


Yet study after study shows that the incidence of rape has declined as porn has proliferated. So you are saying there is an effect, but no cause. That is logically impossible. 



*LittleDeer* said:


> Moreover port stars and producers admit to the drug and alcohol issues it's very well known.


There are drug and alcohol issues in the music world too. By your logic anyone who buys an album or listens to the radio condones exploitation.



*LittleDeer* said:


> No but it shows you are ignoring most of the stuff I post because you cannot argue to the contrary.


As I have said I will happily answer any assertion you care to make. You don't answer everything I say either, that proves nothing at all.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

*LittleDeer* said:


> Moreover port stars and producers admit to the drug and alcohol issues it's very well known.


_Glee_'s Cory Monteith recently completed rehab for a vaguely-defined "substance abuse" (alcohol and/or drugs, we don't know). While he was there, an episode of the show aired in which his character, recently enrolled in college, is shown partying hard and drinking.

Now, if we apply what appears to be your standard (Drug/alcohol use/abuse occurs within the porn industry, thus everyone within the industry does so, meanin the industry as a whole is exploitive and should not exist; all consumers of any aspect of the industry are complicit in this exploitation and are immoral), then we must also conclude that not only _Glee_, but the entire television industry uses/abuses drugs and alcohol, is exploitive, and anyone who watches television is complicit in this exploitation and is immoral. Let's do away with all TV.

ETA: Since _Glee_ also encompasses the music industry, thanks to the success of the soundtrack albums and singles sold, we've got a two-fer: the music industry also uses/abuses drugs/alcohol, is exploitive, and anyone who listens to music is complicit. Do away with the music industry, too.

Two entire forms of media branded as corrupt and exploitive all because Cory Monteith became addicted to...something.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

This is interesting:

_A new study challenges stereotypes of porn stars having poor self-images and a history of sexual abuse. The research, which is published in the latest edition of the Journal of Sex Research, suggests that porn stars have higher self-esteem, a better quality of life and body image, and are more spiritual than their non-adult entertainment counterparts._

From a peer-reviewed journal.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

About the profession issue,

I have seen a documentary where young Americans are seduced to go in the military with the promise of education, in return for doing turns in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The beautiful promises getting them out of poverty get them in the worst situations of their life, and often wounded or dead. I saw their mothers cry and be sad, very sad about the price they had to pay.

And the promised land, do I need to say what happened to their dreams?....What they really got out of it?....


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

See_Listen_Love said:


> And the promised land, do I need to say what happened to their dreams?....What they really got out of it?....



Actually that's true of any job. When my wife says that porn actresses or strippers are "forced" into their jobs because they need money, I ask "how is that different from anyone else?" I'm in the military, and I'm "forced" to do it because I have to support my family.

People who work normally do it because they need money. That's true whether you are talking about a fast food worker, construction worker, doctor, etc. It's no different from porn workers.


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## Voice of Reason (May 3, 2013)

Pame, as a guy, I can tell you, most of us are VERY visual. If or when a guy isn't allowed to look at his lady, if she has issues about always having the lights off, or don't do this, don't do that, well, most, if not all guys will seek it elsewhere. 

I'm not saying that you don't attend to his needs, wants, desires, etc., you probably do. However, if there are subjects that are for whatever reason, off the table, and never come up for discussion, without someone getting defensive or angry, well, again, he'll probably look for it elsewhere, while telling you otherwise.

I recommend you talk with him in a completely relaxed setting. Make a date/time for it, where you can speak openly and freely, tell him that you don't wanna' feel hurt, that you don't want him to hurt, or feel anything less than loved, and to tease, squeeze, and please one another in all things. When doing so, do not jump to conclusions, either of you. Sometimes it takes some back and forth, to really understand what the other person is trying to say, so give one another the opportunity to not only be heard, but to be clearly understood. We all want to be accepted, understood, and loved, let him know that, have a conversation that may start off a bit tough, but with the right attitude, patience, and understanding, you may just come to a point where he realizes that he's a VERY lucky man, and the secrets could be eliminated, and BOTH of you can achieve a higher level of satisfaction in your relationship, based upon understanding, acceptance, giving, receiving, and trust. Good luck to you, your heart appears to be in the right place. Let him know that, and you'll probably both melt into each others arms, and other places as well. Take care.


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## Faiora (Apr 20, 2013)

*LittleDeer* said:


> It's amusing to me that to prove your point you have to twist what I say or change it all together.
> *There are studies that show that people who regularly watch porn are less empathetic towards women.* I think that has some damaging consequences for society's even if you don't.


I often think it would be nice if more people were less empathetic towards women. In fact, I've often put myself in the position of "just one of the guys" to avoid that awkwardness. 

As an aside, that correlation may be the reverse of how you're phrasing it - it's entirely likely that people with less empathy towards women are more likely to watch more porn. People have a tendency to read/watch/otherwise ingest things which reinforce their opinions and beliefs, and that would be a prime example.


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

Faiora said:


> As an aside, that correlation may be the reverse of how you're phrasing it - it's entirely likely that people with less empathy towards women are more likely to watch more porn. People have a tendency to read/watch/otherwise ingest things which reinforce their opinions and beliefs, and that would be a prime example.


It's simpler than that Faiora. The assertion is just false. There is no credible evidence to back it up.


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## Faiora (Apr 20, 2013)

johnnycomelately said:


> It's simpler than that Faiora. The assertion is just false. There is no credible evidence to back it up.


Well, I can't argue with either of you. There may be studies, but I haven't been provided with a reference to any. But I'm not willing to argue that there aren't any. Maybe you have knowledge I don't. *shrugs*


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## olwhatsisname (Dec 5, 2012)

my great grand-children read Cosmo. hope they learn who they (themselves) are.


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