# Sexless marriage after 11 years



## Billy21blue (Sep 25, 2018)

To cut a long story short.
My wife always been hard work in bedroom department but since my youngest been born she won’t even touch me. And if I touch her she just oozes negativity. Her body language tells me she hates it but just puts up with bare minimum to shut me up. 
I don’t want sex for the hell of it I want intimacy. 50/50. I feel atm that I rather stay away from her because her rejection makes me feel soo bad. 
She doesn’t like me using my hands and sex toys are a big no no. 

I understand when you have children it not high priority but My son is now 5 and half now and I feel soo lonely and want a lover not just a best friend and great mum.

I would say it’s just getting worse. I spoken to her about it and she ses she doesn’t think she can ever satisfy me in that department. But not really given a reason. She also said she never thinks about sex etc . I’ve asked her if it’s me but no responce. 
She just tries to avoid the subject. 

Am I wrong to say I miss being intermite and want a lover?


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

I've read you are other thread... nothing has changed, has it? To me, it sounds she's gone off the whole marriage... she is bored and she says you are not compatible, which is a nice way of saying she doesn't love you anymore... sorry, but your next step should be marriage counselling... she needs to be honest with you, instead of fobbing you off with silly excuses.


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## Billy21blue (Sep 25, 2018)

No like I’ve said it’s got worse then better. Always lived in hope it would get better.

I feel selfish for having to talk to her about it and keep asking myself am I wrong to want sex if she doesn’t. 
I wma5 her to be my lover but basically she sees she can’t I guess.. 

I’ve suggested counselling and her response was well if we have to do that then we’re beyond help. 
She was more angry at me for holding affection from her over last 6months saying that I’m punishing her for no intimacy. Which I responded I was doing it to make me feel better as u make me feel like **** if I come near you but it didn’t work as I feel lonely so I’ve had to say something.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Billy21blue said:


> No like I’ve said it’s got worse then better. Always lived in hope it would get better.
> 
> I feel selfish for having to talk to her about it and keep asking myself am I wrong to want sex if she doesn’t.
> I wma5 her to be my lover but basically she sees she can’t I guess..
> ...



I've been there... so I understand. You move away to protect yourself and she complains you are not giving her the emotional support she needs. But she can't give you your language of love, which is emotional connection and intimacy through sex. This is why I recommend marriage counselling. It's not matter of being beyond help... explain to her she needs to understand what you want and your language of love. Don't feel guilty, it's normal to be wanting a relationship on all levels with your wife, but I believe she is immensely frustrated because she can't give you what you want and she is suffering too...


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## Billy21blue (Sep 25, 2018)

That’s good to know I’m not being unreasonable 

I’ll try again for counselling but I know she won’t do it .

Her last response to that was I’m not going to a counsellor so looks like you have some decisions to make


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## delupt (Dec 1, 2014)

I remember you old thread (I haven't re-read as tldr, so correct me if wrong) ... it dissolved into accusations of a likely affair on her GNOs or work. I assumed you checked and continue to check, but that never seemed most likely to me.

You have 3 kids, right? When did the marriage become sexless (less than 10x per year, say)? Clearly after the youngest (5 years), but are you a decade or more into this nightmare?

Is she still talking abusively and belittling you over trivial nonsense? She tells you that she's bored of you, always chatting on her phone, watches her shows, refuses you intimacy, irresponsible with money, GNOs, etc. and she refuses to do MC ... this ain't no healthy marriage and most importantly is a disaster for your children and their long-term growth. She has all the power and hates it, have you tried to address this imbalance? 

So no, you are not "wrong to say I miss being intimate and want a lover" .... but how much are you prepared to lose to reconcile this relationship? 

I'd suggest an ultimatum, but you have to risk losing it all, and mean it. Calmly suggest that without an improvement in the relationship and a halt to the verbal, financial, emotional and sexual abuse, you will have to consider your future within the relationship. 

If nothing after a few weeks, you'll need to bring out some big guns. For full drama and effect, maybe giver option A or option B:
- A: here is a list of marriage counselors, she can choose one and make an appointment soon
or
- B: here are the divorce papers, please get a lawyer and we can resolve this amicably


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

delupt said:


> - A: here is a list of marriage counselors, she can choose one and make an appointment soon
> or
> - B: here are the divorce papers, please get a lawyer and we can resolve this amicably



She's checked out... in my experience, it will be B. She is even hinting at divorce by saying "so looks like you have some decisions to make"...

I hope I'm wrong.


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## Ed3n (Sep 25, 2018)

There is nothing wrong with wanting your spouse to be intimate with you. In fact, it is a positive way to feel. Intimacy in a marriage is vital to the relationship's strength and stability. I'm sorry that you feel guilty for wanting to be in a loving and intimate relationship with your wife. It is unfortunate that she is making you feel sad and lonely, and it's not a good sign for your future with one another 

If she believes MC means that your marriage is too far gone, had she given you any clues as to what might help? Your marriage will not survive in it's current state, unfortunately. If you were okay with being denied intimacy it might work. Although, why would you want it to?

You aren't complaining about no sex, but instead are feeling the loss of intimacy. (There is a difference. A profound one actually). It is only a matter of time, if it's not already happening, that you will resent her. Unless something changes, the negativity will only build. Something needs to change. You can decide how to proceed. 

Do you want to continue feeling this way in your relationship? You might consider IC to help you figure out how best to realize what you want/need from your wife and marriage. IC can help you learn how to communicate your needs to your wife, and others. If she continues to ignore how you feel, and what you need, the there isn't much you can do to salvage your marriage. She seems to be making an active decision to destroy her family unit because she won't put in the effort to keep it alive. How tragic. Not only do you deserve more, but so do your children. 

Don't wait 20+ years to be happy. You only live once. Try not to live a life that is lonely, and filled with regrets.


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## Billy21blue (Sep 25, 2018)

Yes I have 3 lovely children.
She hasn’t cheated ever. Don’t think she really likes men tbh. 

She is my best friend and we get on well 
She has been better with money last few years so that’s not the problem. She is physically fit as she now runs a lot like myself. 
She has no interest in my hobbies. I’ve taken up piano last couple years. Thought she might like that but to no avail. 
But as lovers is a big fat 0 and if I hadn’t of said anything she would of just carried on as we were. She not bothered having a lover but doesn’t want to give up her nice house etc which is at stake. Obviously. 

She not said anything last few days so I guess I need to bring it up again. 
I guess I’ll say something like we need to decide how we can resolve this and move on


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## Billy21blue (Sep 25, 2018)

Oh and she not as verbal as she was since I had a big go about it but I do get daily lectures about house stuff


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Ed3n said:


> You aren't complaining about no sex, but instead are feeling the loss of intimacy. (There is a difference. A profound one actually).


Of course there is, but to his wife, there isn't... I left my wife for the lack of intimacy but all she could say was that I left her for sex... she laughed at me when I said it wasn't just for sex... I think some women get it, some don't... and we are only pigs thinking about one thing... :laugh:


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Billy21blue said:


> Don’t think she really likes men tbh.



well, that's the problem then... :laugh:


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Billy21blue said:


> Yes I have 3 lovely children.
> She hasn’t cheated ever. Don’t think she really likes men tbh.
> 
> She is my best friend and we get on well
> ...


My friend, the *bolded sentences above* tell a tale and forecast your future.

1. She hasn't let on that she's taken a lover, having an affair. 
Odds are yes she has, she's good at hiding it or you have blinders on not wanting to see the signs.

2. Yes, she likes her standard of living, of which you're continuing to foolishly (at this point especially) provide for her, hoping for "sex and intimacy" crumbs.

She'll ride this as long as possible until she *exits ON HER OWN TIME TABLE, SCREWING YOU*, when she's nailed down someone else that will provide equal or higher standard of living. 
Inevitable, from your other details of her responses to repeated communication attempts. 

Giving us 3. the ultimate sh!!* test she's playing on you see my bolded excerpt below from your earlier post:

*"She was more angry at me for holding affection from her over last 6months saying that I’m punishing her for no intimacy."*

Which *she's flipping it on you* as in "how can you NOT know this whole thing is YOUR FAULT.
In order to keep the loop going and making you feel like you have to keep apologizing ad nauseam. 

Here she's blaming you for withholding intimacy FROM HER when shes made very clear choice by her actions and words to keep you at arms length keeping absent any emotional and physical intimacy from her towards you, at HER CHOICE.

But this is common for a W, where by her own choice has totally checked out of a relationship and is just waiting for the best time for HER to split.

The *longer she keeps you* "mystified" and living in "hopium" land the better and longer she has to plan her upcoming future without you.

Guaranteed she's doing this on purpose.

Sorry man, all the signs are there.

You have to start taking control of your own future or you'll be hurt more when she leaves when it's best for her.


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## Betrayedone (Jan 1, 2014)

There is no happy ending here......You are a prime target for an affair as you are screaming for attention and love. I lived it. I would tell her of your needs, and then your game plan if your needs are not met. Start interviewing divorce lawyers. She will either step up or continue to check out.


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

Billy21blue said:


> Oh and she not as verbal as she was since I had a big go about it but I do get daily lectures about house stuff


So Billy, you got 3 kids are mature you love your wife, you stay regardless of being talked down to. And yet you mad multiple attempts on have a loving and fulfilling marriage by what most people would call it.

Yet, here you are on the receiving end of being her whipping boy and stay to take it. She already has drawn her lines and rejected them and you. She had no reason to change because she has what she wants out of the marriage.

So she's running not and fit as you. She's get fit isn't for you but herself. I've not gone back in your past post but reading these today. 

How long must you stay and get kicked in the teeth every day with these mini lectures. Yup l know you love her but when is enough------ enough. You are so afraid and scared to do anything that may upset the boat, unless you got enough self-respect for yourself. 

Nothing will change, but you are as one of the kids to her who want nothing but to take from her. She is done and getting fit for you? Really? You have brought up counseling time after time and are willing and wanting to do again. You already know the answer your receive but must like this endless cycle of feeling inferior.

You know what must be done, how many more wasted years will it be, before you come here and vent in which case is why TAM exist and assistance in other aspects of life love marriage, and even sex. But when a man acts as you through all these years and has no real backbone except to be just one of the kids and wait for mom answer if he can go out and play.


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## Billy21blue (Sep 25, 2018)

No I’m not scared but don’t want to upset my children. 

No affair happening on her part. I know that for sure. 

So like you said she got everything she wants and if I keep quiet all is good for her. 

I am worried I won’t find someone else tbh. Wouldn’t want to jump straight into another relationship or would I? At the end of the day I guess I’m complaining that I want a lover and my wife stopped being one quite sometime a go. 
I wouldn’t use a lawyer etc we are good enough friends to sort it between us. 

But she hasn’t actually answered how she feels so I guess I need to ask again


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## delupt (Dec 1, 2014)

So many of us (men and women) mistakenly stay for the kids out a sense of duty and to honorably face the consequences of our bad decisions. But it is a mistake, mostly because of the effect on the children; abusive relationships turn kids into abusive adults (maybe like your wife) ... stop the cycle here.

And you underestimate the market out there. Whatever your age, there are millions of women standing right behind her that are perfectly lovely, kind, appreciative and loving people looking for a good man with integrity (for long nights of enthusiastic adult fun). You'll be surprised how it feels when you finally come up for air after this is all over. 

Oh, and if it comes to it, get a lawyer ... she will change on the amicable thing as soon as she takes you seriously.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

I spent many years in a loveless sexless marriage. She was a 25 year old virgin when we met and it wasn't because she was saving herself. Over the years, she never was all that affectionate either. I came with a lot of baggage myself and believed it was all my fault. I was unlovable...I really tried to improve intimacy, but nothing worked. I have no idea how we made it 20 plus years.


Its been two years since I move out and about a year being officially divorced. The first 6 months was really hard on our daughter and as of now, she seems happy. She is 16 years old and I think she likes that I am happy. Most of my peeps also tell me I seem happier than ever before and I seemed so sad before. My ex-wife seems happier as well. 


Other than the financial hit, divorce was the best thing for all of us.


The main reason for divorce? I DIDN'T LIKE THER ANGRY SAD MISERABLE PERSON I WAS BECOMING all the while my ex was content to continue indefinitely. Now, my daughter has two happier homes.


My daughter even likes my gf and will ask me to have her come over. Another plus. My daughter will say, "it's real life". I have an amazing daughter...


My ex-wife? As far as I know, she has no desire to date. 


Divorce was the hardest thing I ever had to do, but it was necessary. Nothing was ever going to improve.


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## Billy21blue (Sep 25, 2018)

I’m not miserable just lonely in the Lover department 

Love my house and kids etc. Love my wife but I guess deep down she don’t love me that’s why she not giving me answers


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Billy21blue said:


> I guess deep down she don’t love me that’s why she not giving me answers



I suggested it... I know people have their own issues, etc, but if she really loved you, she would do all she can to make you happy... in a loving relationship, a bit of passionate sex once a week is not a lot to ask, IMO...


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

Billy21blue said:


> I’m not miserable just lonely in the Lover department
> 
> Love my house and kids etc. Love my wife but I guess deep down she don’t love me that’s why she not giving me answers


It sounds like you're miserable from, the screen I am looking at. And yes you may love your wife and your kids, but you're correct she doesn't love you or doe not know how to love you. Which is worse? 

Knowing that you will never be the man that she can love or being used that she can keep appearances up? There's not much you can do about this. But continue to take all the responsibility of her happiness. Life isn't that simple.


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## Billy21blue (Sep 25, 2018)

Just going over chat I had with her in my head. He never answered the question how she feels and never said I love you. Which I told her I did love her. 

So I need to ask her again


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

Blah, blah, blah... that's all you do. Talk too much and complain. You are starting to sound like a nagging child. No wonder your wife just sits there and let you nag. She knows you won't do anything other than to complain while no having the balls to do anything.

She already told you that you two are not compatible. She gave you the ILYBINILWY, and what do you do? Just doing the same old, nagging and complaining.

You know how long I gave my ex wife after she didn't want to have sex with me? Three months and I was out, and divorce her. You have been going for like 6 years? That's pathetic. That means that you do not have self respect, self worth and dignity. You are lacking the balls to do what's the obvious in this situations: End the relationship, because I got news for you: SHE WON'T CHANGE. SHE WON'T WANT TO HAVE SEX WITH YOU EVER. Most likely she's repulsed by you; everytime you approach her, she most wince in anticipation. 

You only have one life to live, and my friend is a short one. Get out now while you can; otherwise, just shut up and accept that this is your life for the rest of it.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Billy21blue said:


> No I’m not scared but don’t want to upset my children.


Do not use your children as your excuse to be weak. 




Billy21blue said:


> No affair happening on her part. I know that for sure.


I bet you're wrong. She is either planning one, in one, or just ended one. 



Billy21blue said:


> I am worried I won’t find someone else tbh. Wouldn’t want to jump straight into another relationship or would I? At the end of the day I guess I’m complaining that I want a lover and my wife stopped being one quite sometime a go.
> I wouldn’t use a lawyer etc we are good enough friends to sort it between us.


Again sir, you are wrong. Your wife is a bitter shrew and even though she probably wants a divorce, she will be out for blood. 



Billy21blue said:


> But she hasn’t actually answered how she feels so I guess I need to ask again


This is passive and weak. Who gives a damn how she feels? She doesnt respect you or your marriage. Stop asking her how she feels, she is making it very obvious how she feels. 

File for divorce! Dont be one of these weak men who sticks around being a doormat for the rest of your life.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

Billy,

While you say she has never had an affair, you also say she might not like men.

Was she sexually abused as a child?

Did she have enthusiastic sex with previous partners and were any of them women?

Does she have a female friend who she spends alot of time with, possibly a quiet long term affair which provides the intimacy she dosen't want from you?

Does she have a work husband who provides the same quiet and hidden intimacy?

Is she capable of orgasm?


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## Billy21blue (Sep 25, 2018)

No im the only person she has ever been with as we met at school. She hasnt been abused but always found sex dirty. 

She gets close to orgasm But then i have to stop. But been long time since had the chance. 
She always home with the children unless out running or at work.


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

She come close then you have to stop? Is it because of the time involved or what do you think she stops? Maybe she does have a O, is satisfied then and just stops could it be this. It was said earlier. Planning one, ending one, or in one.


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

Billy21blue said:


> So I need to ask her again


She already answered the question. Her "not answering" IS the answer. You are nothing more than an object to her. An object which provides her with a comfortable life and pays the bills for her.

I had a GF like this early in my life. By the utter grace of God, I didn't marry her. I would have lived in a loveless, sexless existence while she enjoyed the conveniences my hard-earned money bought her.

Friend, the life you are now living......that's the one which will continue as long as you stay. Get a good, knowledgeable, aggressive lawyer. I can guarantee this woman will go after you like a piranha.


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## Billy21blue (Sep 25, 2018)

I dont know. Just very awkward and u comfortable now in that department so will have to make a decision


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

Billy21blue said:


> I understand when you have children it not high priority but My son is now 5 and half now and I feel soo lonely and want a lover not just a best friend and great mum.


THIS is 100% wrong. To me, your wife and you are the PRIMARY relationship -- the kids, while important, are NOT your #1 priority. Let's face it, your kids will grow up, move on to THEIR life, and then what are you left with if you and your wife are not #1? SHE needs to realize this.
VERY sorry you are going through this.


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## Betrayedone (Jan 1, 2014)

Oh, this is just soooo weird and pathetic..........


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Billy21blue said:


> No im the only person she has ever been with as we met at school. She hasnt been abused but always found sex dirty.
> 
> She gets close to orgasm But then i have to stop. But been long time since had the chance.
> She always home with the children unless out running or at work.


OK, the usual questions, which you may have already answered in the other thread-

#1: Was there a spark, a real connection, that brought the two of you together?
#2: Sounds like you're the only guy she's been with? Was her first experience with you negative? Did she agree to sex that time, was she looking forward to it, does she look back at it and possibly feel regret, etc? Is it possible sex was a big disappointment to her and she was never able to get past that?

Actually, I think I asked a few variations on the usual theme. 

The refusal to go to counseling is a really big issue. If there's a line to be drawn in the sand, that's where I would likely put it. Counseling would be a requirement, as well as a psychological work-up to make sure she's not depressed. 

Things kind of feel shame-driven. She got there somehow. Might there be a clue in how she got there, that could help to fix things? Or am I just projecting hope from my own situation?


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## Billy21blue (Sep 25, 2018)

It was such a long time ago and we were young so i cant really remember. I will try get her to counselling and go from there. 
Ill tell her that its not working for me as it is so we need to come to a decision


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Billy21blue said:


> Just going over chat I had with her in my head. He never answered the question how she feels and never said I love you. Which I told her I did love her.
> 
> 
> 
> So I need to ask her again


No, you don't. 

This is akin to asking her to lie to you...in order to make you feel better.

You pursuing her for sex is EXACTLY the same thing.

You don't need to ask her. You KNOW.

You are just too scared to actually do something about it. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

Remember, you can't fix her, she has to decide to fix herself.

You can only create a situation that encourages her to take that step.

Demand counseling. If she doesn't go, file.

Life is too short for this. You are wasting time.

There are billions of women out there, why stay with one that makes you feel like this.

Take control of your future.


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## Billy21blue (Sep 25, 2018)

Yeh I know. 
Life’s hard but I will do something about it.
It’s her birthday Sunday so I’ll wait until next week


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## Lake life (Nov 18, 2019)

You sound like a clone of my marriage ( divorced 10 years now)
Go ahead and draw hard lines and stick to them. 
We tried counseling, therapists, etc. nothing worked. 
My x wife finally ended up abusing prescription drugs and I kicked her out after putting up with it for 20 years. Just wish I had done it sooner.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

In reading through your thread here and it looks like you had another one running at a prior time, I don't get the feeling that she's cheating. Idk why, I just don't. I get the feeling that she's comfortable, with the house, you and the kids...and she sees you as a roomie, now. She knows you won't leave her, so she has all the control. She sounds controlling, not allowing herself to orgasm sounds like she doesn't want to let herself go and enjoy sex. That's controlling, over herself and over you in a way, because you aren't able to ''give'' her pleasure, either. Maybe somewhere along the way, she learned that sex is a bad thing.

But, you are unhappy and she needs to know that. You didn't get married to have a roommate to pay bills and raise kids with. You want intimacy. I think the word intimacy is better to use than sex, because sometimes, I think men come across as just wanting sex in general, and not necessarily wanting it with their partner. I get the feeling you actually want intimacy and sex with HER.

I hope things get better for you both. Life's too short to be unhappy.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Billy21blue said:


> It was such a long time ago and we were young so i cant really remember. I will try get her to counselling and go from there.
> Ill tell her that its not working for me as it is so we need to come to a decision


If you can't even remember the good times, what brought you together, what it took to work through tough spots when it seemed worthwhile doing so... then you've got a real problem. Without memories how can you have much hope? How do you know what to hope for? Best-case scenario would be, if you knew what you know (now) about this woman, if she knew what she knows (now) about you, and you met for the first time today, would you fall in love? Would you get married? 

This is interesting. I'll bet a huge number of long-married couples, knowing everything they do about each other, would have trouble staying married if they couldn't remember the good times, and have some (often false?) hope that some of that is still there. And even if not, the memories can sustain things a bit. The flip side is for those who are better off forgetting the past because it wasn't so good?

Go through old photos and try to find the good stuff in your partner. And in yourself. See if that does anything for you.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

*Deidre* said:


> In reading through your thread here and it looks like you had another one running at a prior time, I don't get the feeling that she's cheating. Idk why, I just don't. I get the feeling that she's comfortable, with the house, you and the kids...and she sees you as a roomie, now. She knows you won't leave her, so she has all the control. She sounds controlling, not allowing herself to orgasm sounds like she doesn't want to let herself go and enjoy sex. That's controlling, over herself and over you in a way, because you aren't able to ''give'' her pleasure, either. Maybe somewhere along the way, she learned that sex is a bad thing.
> 
> But, you are unhappy and she needs to know that. You didn't get married to have a roommate to pay bills and raise kids with. You want intimacy. I think the word intimacy is better to use than sex, because sometimes, I think men come across as just wanting sex in general, and not necessarily wanting it with their partner. I get the feeling you actually want intimacy and sex with HER.
> 
> I hope things get better for you both. Life's too short to be unhappy.


Nothing changes the perceived power distribution in a relationship like "I'm not happy with our sex life, and that means I'm either going to start having sex with someone else and you're going to choose to be OK with it, or we're going to divorce and then I start having sex with someone else and you're going to have to be ok with it. Or, you know, you could pull your weight in this relationship and prioritize our sex life."

Given this:



> She is my best friend and we get on well
> She has been better with money last few years so that’s not the problem. She is physically fit as she now runs a lot like myself.
> She has no interest in my hobbies. I’ve taken up piano last couple years. Thought she might like that but to no avail.
> But as lovers is a big fat 0 and if I hadn’t of said anything she would of just carried on as we were. She not bothered having a lover but doesn’t want to give up her nice house etc which is at stake. Obviously.


I'd say it's a fairly straightforward thing to say. Either opening the marriage or divorcing solves his problem.

She's comfortable. He's not. He wants her to change, and she has no reason to do so. So you have to put the shoe on the other foot, and force a difficult decision. And be fine with having a very difficult conversation.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Marduk said:


> Nothing changes the perceived power distribution in a relationship like "I'm not happy with our sex life, and that means I'm either going to start having sex with someone else and you're going to choose to be OK with it, or we're going to divorce and then I start having sex with someone else and you're going to have to be ok with it. Or, you know, you could pull your weight in this relationship and prioritize our sex life."


Yea, while this is good advice, I liken it to telling a 500 lb person to ''just stop eating so much.'' They know they need to stop eating as much as they are, but they don't know where to begin. The OP is in the situation he's in, not only because his wife is cold and so on, but because he has allowed himself to be mistreated and lied to throughout the marriage.

It takes two to make a marriage great, and two to make it dysfunctional. In other words, I don't see the OP being remotely able to ''tell'' his wife...anything. I don't mean that to disrespect you OP, but I think you need to work towards standing up for yourself, and at least talking with your wife ...letting her know you're not happy.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

*Deidre* said:


> Yea, while this is good advice, I liken it to telling a 500 lb person to ''just stop eating so much.'' They know they need to stop eating as much as they are, but they don't know where to begin. The OP is in the situation he's in, not only because his wife is cold and so on, but because he has allowed himself to be mistreated and lied to throughout the marriage.
> 
> It takes two to make a marriage great, and two to make it dysfunctional. In other words, I don't see the OP being remotely able to ''tell'' his wife...anything. I don't mean that to disrespect you OP, but I think you need to work towards standing up for yourself, and at least talking with your wife ...letting her know you're not happy.


Sure. I get that it's scary. I get that you're going to worry that she'll hate you, or just agree with you and tell you to leave. Or just not care - maybe that's the worst. 

But at the end of the day, if you can't be honest and say a 30 second group of sentences to your spouse that are true, then you don't really have a relationship at all. You could write it on a piece of paper, walk up to her, say it, and then it's out there. Put it your own way, soften it however you need to.

But when one person is comfortable and that same person gets to make all the rules, and the other person is uncomfortable and thinks they need to abide by the rules set out by the other person... that just can't ever work. She has no motivation to change and every motivation to keep the status quo.

Like with almost everything, power and authority are only what you agree they are. Take that agreement away, and everything changes.


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## Billy21blue (Sep 25, 2018)

Thanks thats some good advice ive just read. Been over a week now since i said something and i feel like ****. Ive said we need to talk more and she not really responded. I guess ive been waiting for her to say something.


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## Billy21blue (Sep 25, 2018)

Should i write it all down what im thinking? 
I think of loads of things to say but im sure when it comes to it i will forget.


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## Taxman (Dec 21, 2016)

Billy, at the bare minimum I would schedule an appointment with your GP. This should be a joint appointment, and although it sounds like you will catch hell for this, lay it all out in front of your PCP. Having it verbalized in front of a third party has the effect of bringing behaviors into the real world. She may be cornered into opening up. ATM you have absolutely no answers. She considers sex dirty. She avoids sex. Sex is duty only in marriage. These three concepts verbalized to a professional have started a good number of people down the road to resolution. I am not saying this is a panacea, however, from what I am reading, it sounds like you are spinning your wheels and going absolutely nowhere.


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## Billy21blue (Sep 25, 2018)

Had a chat tonight. She cross with me for using this as a reason to break up 20 years of hard work. After 20 years sex wont be as important in any relationship. But she did agree we need to have more but that she also has medical problems in that area.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Billy21blue said:


> Had a chat tonight. She cross with me for using this as a reason to break up 20 years of hard work. After 20 years sex wont be as important in any relationship. But she did agree we need to have more but that she also has medical problems in that area.


After 20 years, YES IT IS still important to at least one of you! How dismissive. And now suddenly out of the blue there is a medical issue??


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Billy21blue said:


> Had a chat tonight. She cross with me for using this as a reason to break up 20 years of hard work. After 20 years sex wont be as important in any relationship. But she did agree we need to have more but that she also has medical problems in that area.


Trying to decode your message a bit. Are you saying she's mad at you because you would use lack of sex as a reason to divorce?

But... that she's willing to have more sex but that you need to respect her medical issues?

If so, do you consider this progress, or is it more of the same?

Also, are you ok with her being "willing" to have sex if she lacks "desire?" Or do I have it backward, maybe both of us do, and she does have desire but other stuff (like the medical issues) get in her way?

The medical issue stuff is something I've had to tell my wife doesn't wash. She has wanted carte blanche on lack of hormones causing lack of desire, but that doesn't cover consistency over 40 years. Both the MC and I have made the case that physical stimulation is only a small part of sex; the biggest part occurs in the brain. It's a frame of mind. A way of thinking about your spouse. A respect for one of the very few things shared only between husband and wife, a founding principle for marriage.

To get back to a real sense of intimacy and hopefully desire will require creating a safe place for her though. That's the problem... how can it be a safe place if it's a source of conflict?


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Billy21blue said:


> Had a chat tonight. She cross with me for using this as a reason to break up 20 years of hard work. After 20 years sex wont be as important in any relationship. But she did agree we need to have more but that she also has medical problems in that area.


Translation: "Stop making a big deal about being unhappy when I'm quite comfortable."


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Billy21blue said:


> Had a chat tonight. She cross with me for using this as a reason to break up 20 years of hard work. After 20 years sex wont be as important in any relationship. But she did agree we need to have more but that she also has medical problems in that area.


"I'm not happy with our sex life, and that means I'm either going to start having sex with someone else and you're going to choose to be OK with it, or we're going to divorce and then I start having sex with someone else and you're going to have to be ok with it. Or, you know, you could pull your weight in this relationship and prioritize our sex life."
@Billy21blue--I'm 57yo. I'm a female. And yep, I don't have an itch to have sex as often as I did when I was 37yo, but you better believe sex is still important in my marriage! When I'm 97yo we will be doing everything we physical can do because that physical closeness is an important way to express caring for someone. So I get it, people do age and some things work or change. But that in no way means "no sex." It means adapting. It means taking more time if need be. It means fingers and toes and tongues. It mean still holding hands and kissing and touching in a loving way. 

Don't let her "medical problems" equate to no sex.


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## Billy21blue (Sep 25, 2018)

The problem is she has low sex drive always has and she got an infection 6 months ago which she blames me for. So she even more not want it now and she says her time of the month is soo uncomfortable last few years and getting worse. Two weeks prior to it and the 10 days it’s lasts for which is most of a month. 
She made me feel awful for using intimacy as a reason to question our relationship. And that I would break our children’s hearts. 
She said she rather me just say we should be having sex more which she said she agrees we should. 
She also said we have don’t match how we see sex. Completely different views app. 
Nothing allowed basically except the obvious. 
Prob is I just feel soo uncomfortable now. Maybe it will pass. We will see 

THANKS ALL FIR THE POSTS


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Billy21blue said:


> Had a chat tonight. She cross with me for using this as a reason to break up 20 years of hard work. After 20 years sex wont be as important in any relationship.


Had that "speech" too... only that my wife withdrew sex completely. And I was leaving her just for "sex"... if your wife thinks on the same lines, you will never "win"... it's good she says you need to have more sex, but it won't happen. Eventually, you will stop having sex altogether, because it's not important to her.


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## Billy21blue (Sep 25, 2018)

Affaircare said:


> "I'm not happy with our sex life, and that means I'm either going to start having sex with someone else and you're going to choose to be OK with it, or we're going to divorce and then I start having sex with someone else and you're going to have to be ok with it. Or, you know, you could pull your weight in this relationship and prioritize our sex life."
> 
> @Billy21blue--I'm 57yo. I'm a female. And yep, I don't have an itch to have sex as often as I did when I was 37yo, but you better believe sex is still important in my marriage! When I'm 97yo we will be doing everything we physical can do because that physical closeness is an important way to express caring for someone. So I get it, people do age and some things work or change. But that in no way means "no sex." It means adapting. It means taking more time if need be. It means fingers and toes and tongues. It mean still holding hands and kissing and touching in a loving way.
> 
> Don't let her "medical problems" equate to no sex.


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## Billy21blue (Sep 25, 2018)

I agree. I’ve tried to get her to understand exactly that but I don’t think she does 😕


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Billy21blue said:


> I agree. I’ve tried to get her to understand exactly that but I don’t think she does 😕


Billy, she understands perfectly and she does not care. 

You have been weak about all of this. And guess what, lack of sex is a perfectly good reason to divorce someone. 

Dude, with respect, she is messed up on multiple levels, and you have nothing to feel bad about. 

She is MANIPULATING you and it seems she has been the whole marriage. 

You need to file for divorce, it is the only way you will be happy. 

You deserve to be happy...


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## Billy21blue (Sep 25, 2018)

Well after say 3 weeks of being better she has become abusive again towards me and the children Appears to be frustration. I give up 🤬


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## delupt (Dec 1, 2014)

3 weeks improvement then returning to abusive nag (in order to stop the intimacy) is a disastrous sign. Even those with serious issues can often manage a few months of normal intimacy before reverting back to their comfortable, controlling average. 

Her refusal to see counselor could also mean that she's worried the counselor will uncover more about her personality issues and that you'll wise up.

Seriously, you've gotta risk ending it to have any chance of saving. She's gone and wants you quiet and leaving her alone. Doesn't mean she's got a boyfriend, just means she doesn't want an adult relationship with you, but doesn't want to go it alone without your financial support (and the public show of a relationship). 

File for divorce and insist the only way to reverse it is to go to counseling. If she agrees, then put D on hold until improvements. If not, you'll find a wonderful word of lovely women who appreciate an intimate relationship with a good man waiting for you,yo u'll see your kids 50/50, and your kids wont grow up in a toxic and conflict-ridden relationship and will be better adults because of it.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

Judging by who you chose to answer in this thread (and all the posts you chose to ignore because you didn't want to hear it) I'm going to say it anyway.

It's not that she doesn't desire men like you joked about. It's that she doesn't desire YOU. I don't say that to be mean. I say it because it's true.

Secondly, she's only there for the *financial security*. You could disappear tomorrow and as long as you continued paying all the bills and providing the same standard of living as you are today, you could literally disappear and she probably wouldn't care. She's completely disengaged from you and only put on that dog and pony show of being a better person (which lasted all of 3 whole weeks) to shut you up and to keep the financial gravy train chugging along.

The writing is RIGHT THERE on the wall but you just don't want to see it.

You're really nothing more than an ATM to this selfish woman.

File for divorce but not as some kind of ridiculous ploy in the hopes that she'll suddenly have some kind of magical epiphany and suddenly become the wife you always wanted. That ain't happening (and if it does, expect it to last for about 3 weeks just like this last time). File for a divorce because you're done being DISRESPECTED every single day of your life by a woman who's using you for what you provide. Find your dignity, OP.


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## nekonamida (Feb 21, 2017)

Billy, what kind of infection did she get? And what do you mean she's being abusive to your children? What are you doing to stand up for your kids?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Have you read the book No More Mr Nice Guy? You have a serious problem valuing yourself and women aren't going to stay attracted to such men. It's in our DNA to want strong men who know they're worth staying with. The book will help you realize that and give you some pointers on how to change YOU. Don't give up yet. Read the book.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Billy21blue said:


> Had a chat tonight. She cross with me for using this as a reason to break up 20 years of hard work. After 20 years sex wont be as important in any relationship. But she did agree we need to have more but that she also has medical problems in that area.





Billy21blue said:


> The problem is she has low sex drive always has and she got an infection 6 months ago which she blames me for. So she even more not want it now and she says her time of the month is soo uncomfortable last few years and getting worse. Two weeks prior to it and the 10 days it’s lasts for which is most of a month.
> She made me feel awful for using intimacy as a reason to question our relationship. And that I would break our children’s hearts.
> She said she rather me just say we should be having sex more which she said she agrees we should.
> She also said we have don’t match how we see sex. Completely different views app.
> ...






Billy21blue said:


> Well after say 3 weeks of being better she has become abusive again towards me and the children Appears to be frustration. I give up 🤬


Been there done that. I really want to echo the book by Glover No More Mr. Nice Guy. You are probably a heck of a nice guy and that is not a complement. 

I was in a sex starved marriage and finally could not take it any more. What drove me over the edge was that whenever we had sex (which was rare) within hours she would pick a fight with me. I felt like I needed her emotional closeness through sex and when I felt close to her and my guard was down, she would emotionally rip my heart out by picking a fight and after 30+ years she knew all my hot buttons to push.

We were older and empty nesters. She was just turning 60.

So, I read NMMNG, Chapman's 5 Languages of Love, MW Davis the Sex Starved Marriage and a host of other self-help books to try to figure out what was going on. I made a commitment to myself that I would work first on changing myself so that if I ended up divorcing my wife at least I would understand what when wrong so as to not make the same mistake again. I soon learned that I was part of the problem, even though I felt like the victim because she was refusing to have sex with me. In particular I learned that she did not feel I was giving her the kind and quality of "emotional love" (ala Chapmans 5 Love Languages) that she felt she deserved and that had caused her to withdraw from me. I also figured out that when we did have sex, she also felt close to me and on a subconscious level she picked fights with me so that she could retain her emotional distance from me.

Ultimately, I started to treat her better and make her feel more cherished. Still not sex for months. I finally made myself a promise that I was going to try everything to save the marriage and if I could not, then I would divorce her with no regrets. I suggested we do marriage counseling with a sex therapist. I asked her to take to her medical doctor and give me a recommendation for three marriage counselors who where board certified sex therapists. One of them was a nationally known sex therapist, so I read some of her works. She seemed great. She was and ultimately saved our marriage.

You sound like you are in a similar situation. I strongly urge you to first work on fixing yourself. Give up on pressuring her for sex for 6 months, it won't be pleasant anyway. Become a new more confident, more handsome you. If you get frustrated while finding time to work out or go to the gym, take your kids and or tell yourself you are doing this to find you next lover, should it not work. Focus on your future and what you want your future to be. Come up with some plans and a time table.

Then insist on marriage counseling after a few months of noticeable change on your part. Don't be surprised if your ST tells you that you are part of the problem. If so own it and tell them what you have been doing to change yourself and what your goal is.

I told my ST that I wanted to be in a loving sexual relationship with a woman (preferably my wife) within a year. I told the ST that if my wife just couldn't do that I would divorce her and find someone else. The ST said that seemed reasonable and provided my wife sufficient time to figure out what she wanted. The ST asked my wife if she thought that not having sex with me in the future would result in divorce. My wife avoided asking the question. The ST finally got her to answer and my wife said yes it would probably happen. The ST then worked with me (in front of my wife) on defining what I considered to be a loving sexual relationship. The ST seemed to think that everything I wanted seemed reasonable. The ST asked my wife if she had ever behaved like that toward me. My wife said yes, she had. The ST said that there was not much more to do then as my wife was capable of meeting my emotional needs, she just didn't want to. Now my wife needed to make a decision, does she want to meet my emotional needs or would she prefer to be divorced, the choice and consequences were hers and hers along.

Months later, my wife asked if I would have really divorced her for something as trivial as sex. I told her that to me sex was not trivial, but a huge emotional part of marriage, so yes, I would have divorced her.

That was over 10 years ago. My advice work on yourself, stop pressuring your W for sex (it has to be something she wants to do) and then get the two of you to a sex therapist. Even though a ST is expensive they are a lot less expensive than two divorce attorneys.

Good luck. Sometime with the right help and luck things can be worked out.


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## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2017)

Billy21blue, others have pointed out that she does not desire you! Moreover, she is holding you hostage. Most likely, she's a cake-eater. Sex with you is NOT important to her. And she is not interested in what your needs are. I vote for infidelity. Her's, I mean.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Young at Heart said:


> The ST asked my wife if she had ever behaved like that toward me. My wife said yes, she had. The ST said that there was not much more to do then as my wife was capable of meeting my emotional needs, she just didn't want to. Now my wife needed to make a decision, does she want to meet my emotional needs or would she prefer to be divorced, the choice and consequences were hers and hers along.


This is so incredibly wise, and exactly how I feel. Many of the problems we see here are because a key decision is not being made. Sometimes things need to be brought clearly into focus even if it is hard, and even if the answer may mean the end of the relationship.

How many people do we see posting here every single day that are afraid to confront their spouse and force a decision? Or have confronted the spouse, got a verbal decision that works, but then had their spouse not actually do anything differently? That is also a decision.

Kicking the can down the road endlessly is so toxic.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Marduk said:


> ........ Many of the problems we see here are because a key decision is not being made. Sometimes things need to be brought clearly into focus even if it is hard, and even if the answer may mean the end of the relationship.
> 
> How many people do we see posting here every single day that are afraid to confront their spouse and force a decision? Or have confronted the spouse, got a verbal decision that works, but then had their spouse not actually do anything differently? That is also a decision.
> 
> Kicking the can down the road endlessly is so toxic.


Yes, but I could not have done it without the help of a really great Sex Therapist. She was incredible. Even though I was making progress on my own through DIY relationship books, the Sex Therapist saved my sexless marriage (which is ultimately what we both wanted).

My wife avoided answering the question of the ST, because she saw where it was likely headed. The ST refused to not get an answer. That was when my wife was confronted with the reality of the situation. That is when my wife needed to look at the options she had and take responsibility.

That is why I so often recommend either marriage counseling or counseling with a Sex Therapist. They are expensive, but (if they are good) they can quickly focus on the underlying real issues that need to be addressed.


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## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2017)

Billy21blue, you said she has an infection? Some of the vaginal infections can come from a new lover. Anyhow, stop trying to explain things to her. Make a statement and if she doesn't like it, she can take her TS card to the chaplain and have it punched. 
Billy, it sounds like this W does not love you, but sees you as her caretaker. Anyway, if you don't do something (like file on her) you will remain lonely and unhappy. I don't think you have a marriage but merely a cohabitation arrangement.


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## seb345 (Feb 14, 2020)

I know people who went through the same **** you did. There is really no happy ending here just because living in a marriage that is only caysing you heartache is not great. And you are a man that has needs and it's okay. It's hard to find a good exit strategy here.


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## Billy21blue (Sep 25, 2018)

Wow savage answers. Lol. But yeh your probably right.

She just being verbally abusive. So I had a go at her about it as it’s rubbing off on the kids. She blamed her moods on time of month but I said you have been horrible for weeks.
Getting angry at smallest of things. She said she doesn’t agree with anything I say including to the kids and that we see things soo differently. I told her that her behaviour is demoralising and shows no respect for me. 

I got the wrong socks for my son Saturday and was screamed at saying I’m ****ing useless in front of them all. Had a go for having a shave day after she had cleaned the sink. I always clean up Fter myself but not to her standards app. 

If I give my opinion about something I get shoot down straight away and she gets angry and abusive as there stupid apparently.


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## Billy21blue (Sep 25, 2018)

I told her she is verbally abusive towards me and she got even angrier and she don’t agree


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

This woman has zero respect for you. Nada, zilch, nein etc. Combined with a complete lack of care for your feelings and needs, it's time to cry "uncle" and file for divorce.

Ask your attorney about a clause regarding alienation of affection for your children. Your wife won't hesitate to badmouth you to them.


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## delupt (Dec 1, 2014)

The odds don't look good. Many women check-out after kids and begin to slowly despise their 'nice guy' male partner for providing and care taking. 

There's a chance you can snap her out of it with the right counselling, but she refuses do that, right? 

Seriously, she'll just get louder and more obstreperous as this goes on and as you continue to wake up and (finally) stand your ground. The kids will suffer the most as she rises the conflict level. Worryingly, as you get better at dealing with her tantrums, she may start targeting one or more of the kids as they develop their own personality and kick-back too. This causes long-term damage to them as they don't have the tools. 

You've got to risk losing the marriage if there is any chance of saving it, for you and the kids. She wont change if you do nothing. NMMNG is a bare minimum, then the Walking on Eggshells classic because the more you reveal about her, the more borderline borderline she sounds. Hope I'm wrong.


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

This thread has reached the point of diminishing return. You have been given excellent advice by caring people who have been there, done that. It's now time for you to take action. There's no benefit in sharing her latest outburst unless you follow it with an action plan. It's your move.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

Billy21blue said:


> I got the wrong socks for my son Saturday and was screamed at saying I’m ****ing useless in front of them all. Had a go for having a shave day after she had cleaned the sink. I always clean up Fter myself but not to her standards app.


You're her child and cower in fear every time your mommy-wife yells at you. Instead of finding your spine and manning up, you bow your head, apologize, and promise to do better. She knows you're too afraid to stand up for yourself so she acts like your mother, constantly yelling at you and scalding you when you misbehave.

What an *unappealing* dynamic. Coupled wit the fact that she has exactly ZERO respect for you OP, and it's the perfect storm.

Good lord no *wonder *you're not getting any action.

If I were you, I'd march right into your bedroom and take your testicles back out of her purse. Then, I'd be seeing my lawyer.


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## Billy21blue (Sep 25, 2018)

Yeh I know. 

I have a go at her and she goes quiet for couple days then starts being nice but I know it’s fake

And then round and round we go.

She needs to shape up or ship out I get it


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

Billy21blue said:


> She needs to shape up or ship out I get it


No, you need an action plan. What is it?


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## Billy21blue (Sep 25, 2018)

Hummmmm. Try get her go counselling 

Failing that trial separation


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

Billy21blue said:


> Hummmmm. Try get her go counselling
> 
> Failing that trial separation


Dates? You need to man up here. Sorry to be hard on you, but this problem will not get better on its own. You have to do something. Try something like, "Identify a counselor within one week. Make an appointment with the counselor at a time that you know your wife is available. Tell her about the appointment, how you hope she will attend, and how you hope the marriage can be saved." If she refuses to go to the appointment, make an appointment with a lawyer within two weeks. Take the steps necessary to move ahead with the divorce. A "trial separation" is wimpy. Put a stake in the ground and let her know you're serious. If she's ready to end the marriage, so be it. Reality sucks.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Billy21blue said:


> Yeh I know.
> 
> I have a go at her and she goes quiet for couple days then starts being nice but I know it’s fake
> 
> ...


You really do need to come up with a plan. If counseling is what you want to do that you think will help your marriage, then I agree, tell her that you have made an appointment with a marriage counselor for X date, but she can choose another and get an appointment before then and you will attend or she can attend the one you set up.

Also, one of the hardest lessons I had to learn in resolving my sex starved marriage was to not let my wife control me. By that I mean she knew me. She knew all my hot buttons and knew how to get me angry and how to fight with her. I had to learn how to overcome that knee-jerk reaction on my part. When I finally learned how to control my emotions, she no longer could manipulate me.

For example, I took her out to dinner once at the beginning of our sex therapy sessions and she started to feel romantic toward me, so she immediately said something to pick a fight with me so she could regain her emotional distance. I realized what was happening and instead of responding with anger, I just looked at her and asked why she would say such a thing to me. I didn't let her off the hook, I insisted that she tell me why she had said what she did. She could not admit why she did it, but I made sure she thought about it.  She told me on the drive home that she was sorry and should not have responded the way she did.

The point of this is that you don't have to let your wife control the marriage narrative. You can choose not to play the verbal fight game, if you really learn about yourself and you learn how to heal yourself.

Good luck and do get therapy. If you wife doesn't go, go and get help for yourself. What every happens forcus on improving your life with or without her.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Billy21blue said:


> Yeh I know.
> 
> I have a go at her and she goes quiet for couple days then starts being nice but I know it’s fake
> 
> ...


What does “I have a go at her” mean exactly? What do you say or do?


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

PieceOfSky said:


> What does “I have a go at her” mean exactly? What do you say or do?


I believe that is UK or Aussie for having a strong discussion, or arguing. But I'm not sure...


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

BluesPower said:


> I believe that is UK or Aussie for having a strong discussion, or arguing. But I'm not sure...


I think it means he challenges her for her behaviour...


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## Billy21blue (Sep 25, 2018)

I just tell her her behaviour is not nice and disrespectful and demoralising to me


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

You STILL haven't done anything to find a solution to your problem?

Refusing sex in marriage is breaking the same vow as not straying from the marriage. There are two sex duties in a marriage: The duty to have sex with your spouse, and the duty to not have sex with a third person. Even the Christian marriage boards agree with this. 

If you're not going to take action, continuing to post here is wasting your time. You have been given tough love talk, and you're still wimping along.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Billy21blue said:


> I just tell her her behaviour is not nice and disrespectful and demoralising to me


And THEN what do you do? Leave the room? Leave the house? Stop being around to let her continue?


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