# Guys, how do you feel about faking?



## WRN319 (Dec 26, 2015)

I[f the} wife doesn't feel like having sex, but she wants to do something nice for her husband and pretends to want/enjoy sex, and she is convincing enough that he doesn't realize she isn't really interested, is that a bad thing?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Yes. Honesty is critical in marriage. They will both pay eventually for dishonesty.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

no its not a bad thing, so long as you are willing to set aside your feelings to try and make her feel loved as well.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

She can have sex with him as an act of service. But she should not be dishonest about it in any way. Dishonesty breeds distrust.

OP, often a woman will get into it as she goes along.

She could say, "I do not really feel like having sex. But I want to do something nice for you, and I know you enjoy sex. Would it be okay if we have sex now?"
_Posted via Mobile Device_
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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Some women enjoy sexually pleasing their partners even though they don't necessarily care for the act themselves. They have sex because they like making their partners happy. IMO, there's nothing wrong with that however that DOES NOT mean one should fake sexual pleasure/bliss. 

Faking it can become a difficult act to keep up over time. It takes a lot of effort to pretend to be something you're not. It's disingenuous at best and destructive to intimacy at its worst.


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

If the woman fakes a lot, and the man doesn't realize it, he doesn't know she's not getting her needs met. He doesn't have a chance to try to make it better for her if he doesn't know anything's lacking.

It's fine to sometimes have sex out of love and wanting to do something for your spouse. And if that's what she's doing, it's best if she's moderately into it, and not bored and resentful. But pretending the earth moves, when it really doesn't, isn't really helping anyone.


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## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

You're asking two questions. Is it okay to have sex when you aren't that enthusiastic about it? Yes. I expect both spouses to do things for each other when they aren't that enthusiastic. Is it okay to fake your enjoyment? No. That's a lie that hurts both of you in the long run. 

Do you do this regularly? Do you have satisfying sex with your husband or is it unfulfilling?


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

:iagree:


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## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

Guys can figure it out when its faked. That leads to a whole bunch of issues. Way better to let husband know your not totally into it, but would be glad to meet his needs.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

I fake paying attention to what's she's saying, so call it a draw.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

enjoyment cannot really be faked. 

it can be chosen, however.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

"If you can fake sincerity, kid, you got it made" - Louis B. Mayer


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

jld said:


> She can have sex with him as an act of service. But she should not be dishonest about it in any way. Dishonesty breeds distrust.
> 
> OP, often a woman will get into it as she goes along.
> 
> ...


that kinda kills the mood for a lot of men. it would be ok with me, but only if my wife actually acted like she enjoyed it. and, that is not because i have to believe it is something that she naturally enjoys, but because i know that if she is able to produce a genuine smile, she has made the decision to latch onto something that she really DOES enjoy. and that may simply be her thinking about how much i am going to want to repay the favor later, but the point is, she found a reason to enjoy the experience. 

that is important because once someone finds a reason to enjoy something, it is not a detriment to them. i may typically hate shopping for clothes with my wife because i dont have much patience for aimless browsing, but if keep my focus on how cute and sexy she is going to look in in her new outfits, and how much i am going to enjoy seeing her bubbly personality as she wears them while we are out doing something fun, then you can bet i will actually enjoy shopping with her. 

i will want to see her get excited about an outfit, and will actually engage her and have a genuine opinion because i will picture it on her. i will imagine every aspect about it, including how i am going to want to give her compliments on how she looks because she will be wearing something that i really like seeing on her. 

in other words, i will do exactly what she is looking for and it wont be fake. 

sex can be the exact same way.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
I think that as long as the marriage is generally balanced it is OK for some to provide sex that they don't really enjoy. They shouldn't fake, but instead say that they enjoy pleasing their partner. 

I don't get pleasure out of giving my wife massages, but I enjoy making her happy.

Of course if we are talking about an active dislike, not just a lack of enjoyment, that is different.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> I think that as long as the marriage is generally balanced it is OK for some to provide sex that they don't really enjoy. They shouldn't fake, but instead say that they enjoy pleasing their partner.
> 
> I don't get pleasure out of giving my wife massages, but I enjoy making her happy.
> ...


i dont think so. i actively disliked shopping with my wife. 

and to an extent, too much of it does drain me. but, generally speaking, i enjoy shopping with her now. i force myself to smile, genuinely, and then it just becomes natural to start thinking about the things that i really do enjoy and focusing on the positives. 

my wife still does the same things while shopping that i actively disliked, but since they are not really destructive or disrespectful behaviors, its not my place to tell her to stop. the difference is that i actively started focusing on something positive instead of the negative.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

jld said:


> She can have sex with him as an act of service. But she should not be dishonest about it in any way. Dishonesty breeds distrust.
> 
> OP, often a woman will get into it as she goes along.
> 
> ...


Duty sex, huh?

"Yes. I will allow you to slake your carnal lust using my unwilling body. Oh! What happened to your erection?"

"Doesn't matter Think I might read a book. "
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

As'laDain said:


> that kinda kills the mood for a lot of men. it would be ok with me, but only if my wife actually acted like she enjoyed it. and, that is not because i have to believe it is something that she naturally enjoys, but because i know that if she is able to produce a genuine smile, she has made the decision to latch onto something that she really DOES enjoy. and that may simply be her thinking about how much i am going to want to repay the favor later, but the point is, she found a reason to enjoy the experience.
> 
> that is important because once someone finds a reason to enjoy something, it is not a detriment to them. i may typically hate shopping for clothes with my wife because i dont have much patience for aimless browsing, but if keep my focus on how cute and sexy she is going to look in in her new outfits, and how much i am going to enjoy seeing her bubbly personality as she wears them while we are out doing something fun, then you can bet i will actually enjoy shopping with her.
> 
> ...


How about if she just enjoys pleasing you?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> Duty sex, huh?
> 
> "Yes. I will allow you to slake your carnal lust using my unwilling body. Oh! What happened to your erection?"
> 
> ...


Not all men are sensitive.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I also think faking and dishonesty is a bad idea. There are times when I really want sex and other times when I just try to keep an open mind, which usually works out well for me. 

There have been a few times that have been just for either him or me, but that's ok if it's part of a greater sex life. 

If I'm just not up for it I'll tell hb that and ask for a rain check, which is almost always delivered. And he never pouts, he just kisses me and goes to sleep. 

This works because I am very attracted to him so the times in not up for anything have nothing to do with him. 

If he was the issue none of this would work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

jld said:


> How about if she just enjoys pleasing you?


that would be the same thing. she may not enjoy sex itself, but can find enjoyment in pleasing me through sex. 

that is why it wouldn't bother me at all if my wife said "i really don't enjoy sex, but i want to do this for you". 

in fact, she has said that about a great many things, sex being one of them. nowadays, its pretty much second nature for her to immediately start thinking about the aspects she enjoys, to the point where she will actually seek me out for sex in order to enjoy it.

just the same as i will often decide to take her on surprise clothes shopping trips. i really do enjoy picking out new outfits with her. 


it started with a choice, on both our parts.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

As'laDain said:


> that would be the same thing. she may not enjoy sex itself, but can find enjoyment in pleasing me through sex.
> 
> that is why it wouldn't bother me at all if my wife said "i really don't enjoy sex, but i want to do this for you".
> 
> ...


So she does not really need to act like she enjoys it then? As long as she does it with a generous spirit, it is enough?


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Lila said:


> Some women enjoy sexually pleasing their partners even though they don't necessarily care for the act themselves. They have sex because they like making their partners happy. IMO, there's nothing wrong with that however that DOES NOT mean one should fake sexual pleasure/bliss.
> 
> *Faking it can become a difficult act to keep up over time. It takes a lot of effort to pretend to be something you're not. It's disingenuous at best and destructive to intimacy at its worst.*


*Perhaps the only good that can come out of "female faking" is that they, in time, can come to qualify for an Academy Award nomination in brand new categories for "Outstanding Actress/or Supporting Actress in a Performance Faking Sexual Orgasm!"*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

jld said:


> So she does not really need to act like she enjoys it then? As long as she does it with a generous spirit, it is enough?


yes. i should probably clarify "acting" however.

basically, if it looks like she is enjoying it or into it, its all good. because in reality, we cannot fake an expression of emotion. we cannot express an emotion we do not feel. if we can express it, we immediately begin to feel it. 

try smiling for three minutes straight, without stopping. at first, your eyes will likely not be into it and it will feel completely fake. in order to continue smiling, you will have to remember a moment that made you happy and mirror that emotion, which will show up in your eyes. once your whole face is smiling, you will start to genuinely feel like you have a reason to smile. you will feel happier, even if it doesn't make sense to. that is because your brain remembers what the positions of those facial muscles mean, emotionally.

that is the power of "acting". if you can express an emotion flawlessly, it is because you can actually feel the emotion. so anyone who sets out to act in the way OP describes is not just acting. they are choosing to express, and therefore feel, an emotion.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

jld said:


> Not all men are sensitive.


Sadly not all women are sensitive, either.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

As'laDain said:


> yes. i should probably clarify "acting" however.
> 
> basically, if it looks like she is enjoying it or into it, its all good. because in reality, we cannot fake an expression of emotion. we cannot express an emotion we do not feel. if we can express it, we immediately begin to feel it.
> 
> ...


So as long as she is willing to do it, she must be enjoying it? Or at least feeling something? And as long as she is feeling something, that is enough? You just do not want lifelessness?

Well, you don't need to answer that. It is a highly individual question, and may not be relevant to the OP's question.

I agree that smiling can change our attitude. I would hesitate to recommend it to someone who was feeling completely sad, though. I think there is value to genuine emotion. Our emotions are here to teach us.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> Sadly not all women are sensitive, either.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think the world would be a minefield if everyone were sensitive, Matt.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

jld said:


> *So as long as she is willing to do it, she must be enjoying it? Or at least feeling something? And as long as she is feeling something, that is enough? You just do not want lifelessness?*
> 
> Well, you don't need to answer that. It is a highly individual question, and may not be relevant to the OP's question.
> 
> I agree that smiling can change our attitude. I would hesitate to recommend it to someone who was feeling completely sad, though. I think there is value to genuine emotion. Our emotions are here to teach us.


i want to see her enjoying herself. i have no way of knowing for certain if she is enjoying something because she wants to(active choice) or because that is just how she emotionally responds to me(passive emotional experience). either one is good. i do not want to engage in an activity that obviously causes her distress.

emotions chosen and sought after are no less genuine than emotions experienced.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

As'laDain said:


> i want to see her enjoying herself. i have no way of knowing for certain if she is enjoying something because she wants to(active choice) or because that is just how she emotionally responds to me(passive emotional experience). either one is good. i do not want to engage in an activity that obviously causes her distress.
> 
> *emotions chosen and sought after are no less genuine than emotions experienced.*


I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I think naturally emergent emotions are a teacher. 

"Chosen" emotions might be okay in certain circumstances, but not if they mask true, strong emotions. Again, I think genuine emotions are here to teach us something. Working through them can help us grow.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

jld said:


> I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I think naturally emergent emotions are a teacher.
> 
> "Chosen" emotions might be okay in certain circumstances, but not if they mask true, strong emotions. Again, I think genuine emotions are here to teach us something. Working through them can help us grow.


let me guess... me choosing to express, and therefore experience, joy in order to make my wife feel loved through shopping despite normally feeling irritated by it= good.

my wife choosing to express, and therefore experience joy in order to make me feel love through sex despite normally feeling irritated by it= bad.

is that about right? lol


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

As'laDain said:


> let me guess... me choosing to express, and therefore experience, joy in order to make my wife feel loved through shopping despite normally feeling irritated by it= good.
> 
> my wife choosing to express, and therefore experience joy in order to make me feel love through sex despite normally feeling irritated by it= bad.
> 
> is that about right? lol


Neither would necessarily be "bad." I guess it would depend on the intensity of an "anti"-emotion, if there were one.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

My husband is one of those *sensitive ones*... it is what it is...he literally would roll over if I didn't show some interest in being there.. this doesn't bother me .. as I love sex.. and need it too...(we're on the same page)...

I even LIKE the fact he is like this.. he's told me sex is like 70% emotional for him (or something like that) ...he is the sensual type...* it's about mutual giving*.....once in a while this would be OK (not feeling it but "giving")... but on a regular basis.. NO.. he'd find it very unfulfilling & hollow.

For those men who have a very low need for the emotional in sex.. it's less likely to bother then...if their wives would rather be taking out the garage over that blow job... he'll take what he can get...he won't feel bad if she doesn't get hers...

Then others like my husband have this need to Please their wives... this gives them AS MUCH if not more pleasure over their own... 

Personally I find this very romantic.. so sensitive guys are not all bad- they just need a certain type of woman -also pursuing sex to validate her need for him..


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

I think faking is a bad idea but if it's rare then maybe it's a non-issue.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

As'laDain said:


> that kinda kills the mood for a lot of men. it would be ok with me, but only if my wife actually acted like she enjoyed it. and, that is not because i have to believe it is something that she naturally enjoys, but because i know that if she is able to produce a genuine smile, she has made the decision to latch onto something that she really DOES enjoy. and that may simply be her thinking about how much i am going to want to repay the favor later, but the point is, she found a reason to enjoy the experience.
> 
> that is important because once someone finds a reason to enjoy something, it is not a detriment to them. i may typically hate shopping for clothes with my wife because i dont have much patience for aimless browsing, but if keep my focus on how cute and sexy she is going to look in in her new outfits, and how much i am going to enjoy seeing her bubbly personality as she wears them while we are out doing something fun, then you can bet i will actually enjoy shopping with her.
> 
> ...


*Except that it's just way too gauche, if not damn near impossible, for a guy to fake orgasm!  Ces pas?*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

I told my wife from the get go never fake an orgasm.




And she never has.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Thound said:


> I told my wife from the get go never fake an orgasm.
> 
> And she never has.


Lol, I suspect she probably never has. If you asked her not to then she knows it's important to you. My guess if that a lot of women fake because they want their guy to think they rock their world. It seems like sincere enough intentions to me.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

WRN319 said:


> I[f the} wife doesn't feel like having sex, but she wants to do something nice for her husband and pretends to want/enjoy sex, and she is convincing enough that he doesn't realize she isn't really interested, is that a bad thing?


If your husband doesn't enjoy going to work but goes anyway and continues to support the family, is that a bad thing? 

The reason we take vows before witnesses is to help us behave like husbands and wives even when we don't feel like it. People who do only as they feel don't need a ceremony or vows. That requires no commitment at all.


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## WRN319 (Dec 26, 2015)

I'm seeing a lot of very good points being made and I appreciate hearing all the opinions. It has given me a lot to think about. 

My husband has anxiety issues and would get very upset, (scared, abandoned, rejected, etc.) if he didn't feel desired. I have fear issues and him being upset made me upset. Faking meant we both felt secure.

I agree, there were a lot of needs going unmet and we are in counseling now trying to sort it all out. I often wonder if honesty about sex 20 years ago would have put us on a healthier track or if it would have ended our marriage then and there. There is no way to know. I was too weak to be honest and he was too weak to listen to honesty. Hindsight can't change the past. 

I'm not feigning interest any more. I've offered sex, but he doesn't want it until I "want it." Emotionally, I feel like a wrung out dish rag which pretty much leaves me with no physical desires whatsoever. I could solve our current stale mate by pretending to be horny and putting on my best porn star act, but it would be a temporary fix at best. I'm pretty sure, at this point, even if I was genuinely up for it, he wouldn't believe me anyway.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Commit to honesty going forward. No more protecting his feelings! He won't grow if you do.

Give him the gift of your transparency.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

WRN319 said:


> I'm seeing a lot of very good points being made and I appreciate hearing all the opinions. It has given me a lot to think about.
> 
> My husband has anxiety issues and would get very upset, (scared, abandoned, rejected, etc.) if he didn't feel desired. I have fear issues and him being upset made me upset. Faking meant we both felt secure.
> 
> ...



in your case, i agree with jld. complete honesty is needed. yes, he is going to get upset. yes, he isn't going to like it. and yes, dealing with those insecurities will be unpleasant. 

you shouldn't try to fake it in order to enjoy it unless you actually have something that you can enjoy about it. right now, it sounds like you would have to create a fantasy in order to think of something positive. and that is not cool. 

if he is willing to have sex with you even if you aren't in the mood for it, and you are willing to genuinely smile at his pleasure, then you might be able to start turning this around. but he has to be willing to accept a gift as a gift and stop trying to control your feelings about it.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

As'laDain said:


> in your case, i agree with jld. complete honesty is needed. yes, he is going to get upset. yes, he isn't going to like it. and yes, dealing with those insecurities will be unpleasant.
> 
> you shouldn't try to fake it in order to enjoy it unless you actually have something that you can enjoy about it. right now, it sounds like you would have to create a fantasy in order to think of something positive. and that is not cool.
> 
> *if he is willing to have sex with you even if you aren't in the mood for it, and you are willing to genuinely smile at his pleasure, then you might be able to start turning this around. but he has to be willing to accept a gift as a gift and stop trying to control your feelings about it.*



Your marriage is on thin ice, and you have thrown it a lifeline. Your husband is either going to work with you to pull it to safety, or he is going to let it sink. I'd tell him the choice is his.

We can't have everything the way we want, when we want it. Attraction and desire are complex and I suppose involuntary. Attitude, though, and openness to the other, even when circumstances are far from ideal, is a choice. 

If each partner is willing to turn towards the other and be vulnerable, face awkward truths, put forth an honest effort at finding solutions and dedicate energy to work them, then maybe these sorts of problems can be solved, and maybe the end result is an enjoyable thriving relationship. But, demanding someone change how she feels or else no physical intimacy will be allowed is a declaration of a stalemate. *My experience with such stalemates is it gives time for the ice to crack all the way through.*

If I understand your situation correctly, you are open to having physical intimacy with your husband, even though it is not something you find inherently pleasurable, at least when you contemplate it.... And, he is not willing to participate. If so, and if your interest in providing him physical pleasure is rooted in your love for him and your desire to find a way forward together, then kudos to you... You are offering him the only thing I have ever heard lead to a solution for any lower-desire (and probably intimacy-starved) wives and their sexually/intimacy-starved husbands here. If so, maybe he should read the Sex-In-Marriage forum here, and maybe he'd see this is his one chance to not screw it up.


BTW, I agree with the others that the truth is the only thing that can possibly work. You can either face the truths, uncomfortable as they may be, or you can pretend they don't exist. Either way, it will make all the difference.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

WRN319 said:


> I[f the} wife doesn't feel like having sex, but she wants to do something nice for her husband and pretends to want/enjoy sex, and she is convincing enough that he doesn't realize she isn't really interested, is that a bad thing?



You have to find out what each others love language is, so take the 5 love languages quiz and compare.

Home | The 5 Love Languages® | Improving Millions of Relationships? One Language at a Time.


Find out who is LD and HD.


If you, the guy are HD and your wife is LD, she will have sex with you to please you but not because she is horny and wants sex.


Is it bad to have sex with a LD wife?

No. You still share that oneness and connection even if it isn't that often.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

A very important topic for me - I have always enjoyed sex and just love to please my partner. It was always important for me and to make sure my partner had an orgasm. Much later in my life with my exWS I understood that sometimes she was not that into it and didn't need or want to cum. We had two children by then and I was noticing the shift in interest. Nothing unusual as children and work / life can kill off desire. Also I was developing depression (which I didn't tune into back then) which manifested as weight gain, frustration and anger. It was a wicked circle but on rare occasions we still enjoyed good sex.

Nearly 3 years ago I discovered her affair and during those early weeks of arguments she blurted out that she had been faking it. I was certain that was not possible but eventually realised that on some of those rare evenings she probably had. I could recall elements and could see that it was true. Sometimes she had faked it.

The thing is she used this as a tool to humiliate me - to win an argument. And funnily enough, given the nightmare of discovering that you have been betrayed and fooled, I wasn't that worried about it. It was just another piece of bad news.

But the larger picture was that this revelation was but an element of a failed relationship. The complete lack of communication - the fact that we never communicated on those deeper more personal levels and still do not to this day as housemates - it was all there, all ignored.

And clearly when this cheating rat came on the scene he lit the fire within her - no faking there. That was the worst thing because you spend so much time analysing and you realise that faking it and all the other s**t is set in relief to the presence of a third party. You cannot remove that fact, you have to view it through that prism. She's faking it at first because we ran out steam and now she is faking because she has a new man. She's faking it to fool me that I still had a stake in the game but I did not.

Of course the faking stopped all together eventually - no sex, no fake. Just fake lives now. I have no issue with faking it as long as I know. I can work with that. Undisclosed faking is a symptom of something far worse than faking an orgasm.


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## WRN319 (Dec 26, 2015)

We read the 5 Love Languages 4 marriage counselors ago. I'm service and quality time, he is touch and words of affirmation.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

WRN319 said:


> I[f the} wife doesn't feel like having sex, but she wants to do something nice for her husband and pretends to want/enjoy sex, and she is convincing enough that he doesn't realize she isn't really interested, is that a bad thing?


The more important question is why do you feel the need to fake enjoyment?

Sooner or later men can see past fakery. We are stupid, but not THAT stupid.

Once men find out that enjoyment has been faked, we get pissed, real pissed. Rightfully so, I might add.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

WRN319 said:


> I'm seeing a lot of very good points being made and I appreciate hearing all the opinions. It has given me a lot to think about.
> 
> My husband has anxiety issues and would get very upset, (scared, abandoned, rejected, etc.) if he didn't feel desired. I have fear issues and him being upset made me upset. Faking meant we both felt secure.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you have reactive desire and your husband can't get started unless he "thinks" you are salivating for him. Difficult place to be in. I believe your situation was very similar to mine. The only way it changed was for me to just dive in and get my wife to "react" honestly to my sexual process. 

My wife is still reactive desire but I have developed the confidence to know that even if it's difficult for her to start, I have the ability to get her going and going strong in the end. I turned a negative into a positive ego boost for myself. I call that a win win.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

WRN319 said:


> I[f the} wife doesn't feel like having sex, but she wants to do something nice for her husband and pretends to want/enjoy sex, and she is convincing enough that he doesn't realize she isn't really interested, is that a bad thing?



Moderation in everything.
If the woman fakes it like p0rn stars do with exaggeration, then it is a bad thing. But if the woman does it in a nice and smart way, the man can feel a sense of accomplishment at having given his woman pleasure. It is like praise. Praise makes us happy and we want to do more. Fake praise is nauseating and does the opposite.

When we have sex, I can tell when my wife is really really enjoying it from the noises she makes and how her body shudders and her biting me in a nice way. She does not do it all the time. Her throaty moans when she is at the peak is highly intoxicating.  I enjoy making her happy.
I don't think she has every faked it in a bad way, maybe some in a good way.

These days she is afraid our pre teen son will hear her, so she tones it down


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

WRN319 said:


> We read the 5 Love Languages 4 marriage counselors ago. I'm service and quality time, he is touch and words of affirmation.


I think me and my wife are like this too.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

WRN319 said:


> I'm seeing a lot of very good points being made and I appreciate hearing all the opinions. It has given me a lot to think about.
> 
> My husband has anxiety issues and would get very upset, (scared, abandoned, rejected, etc.) if he didn't feel desired. I have fear issues and him being upset made me upset. Faking meant we both felt secure.
> 
> ...


Here is my take.
Men think their wives should automatically "want" them sexually.
What I have learned over my 24 year marriage is that much like respect, sexual desire from the other partner must be EARNED.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

UMP said:


> Here is my take.
> Men think their wives should automatically "want" them sexually.
> What I have learned over my 24 year marriage is that much like respect, sexual desire from the other partner must be EARNED.


UMP, you are right that we guys think our wives should automatically want us. Or rather, we feel good when our wives want us and occasionally makes moves that proves this.

How can we "earn" it? If the wife is LD, then how do we do it? 

It looks like the man is being blamed again for the wife not having sex.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

nirvana said:


> UMP, you are right that we guys think our wives should automatically want us. Or rather, we feel good when our wives want us and occasionally makes moves that proves this.
> 
> How can we "earn" it? If the wife is LD, then how do we do it?
> 
> It looks like the man is being blamed again for the wife not having sex.


I am glad you asked.
It's NOT like earning something via covert contract.
It has to do with your quality as a male. The biological triggers that switch to "on" for a female (providing she is attracted to men and not women) is your "maleness." If you can define and then objectively single out male traits and embody these traits, you will foster desire and attraction from your female.
Early on, when things are new and young, when a man is free and the world is ahead of him, he is fit and attractive enough to have landed this women, it's EASY. As the years roll along, you start showing your age and you realize that you're not going to conquer the world, THIS is the most vulnerable time for loss of attraction.

What are these traits?

1. Faithfulness. What married women is going to be sexually attracted to someone who cheats on her ?? 

2. Emotional strength. What married women is going to be sexually attracted to someone who cries on her shoulder at the drop of a hat? 

3. Control of emotions. What married women is going to be sexually attracted to someone who screams and is angry on a daily basis? 

4. Provide. What married women is going to be sexually attracted to someone who cannot or will not provide for her and her family? 

5. Endure her testing. What married women is going to be sexually attracted to a man that gets defensive and hurt when his women tests him? 

6. Kind. What married women is going to be sexually attracted to a man that is never kind to her? 

7. Sexually selfless. What married women is going to be sexually attracted to a man that is not interested in rocking HER world and only interested in getting off? 

8. Patient with sexual application. You want to have anal sex? Great, but maybe your wife does NOT want anal sex. Be patient and don't pout. Your time may come. In the mean time, she has two other holes. Rock those other holes till she begs for it.

9. Confidence. What married women is sexually attracted to a man that is not confident when he has sex with her? 

10. Healthy and physically fit. What married women is sexually attracted to a fat slob?

It has nothing to do with "blaming" the man, it has everything to do with BEING a man.

Are you a man?

Attraction is not an entitlement, it's earned through hard work on YOURSELF. Married women HATE giving out sexual welfare checks!


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

UMP said:


> I am glad you asked.
> It's NOT like earning something via covert contract.
> It has to do with your quality as a male. The biological triggers that switch to "on" for a female (providing she is attracted to men and not women) is your "maleness." If you can define and then objectively single out male traits and embody these traits, you will foster desire and attraction from your female.
> Early on, when things are new and young, when a man is free and the world is ahead of him, he is fit and attractive enough to have landed this women, it's EASY. As the years roll along, you start showing your age and you realize that you're not going to conquer the world, THIS is the most vulnerable time for loss of attraction.
> ...


Fabulous post, UMP. Has to be one of TAM's best for 2015.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

UMP said:


> I am glad you asked.
> It's NOT like earning something via covert contract.
> It has to do with your quality as a male. The biological triggers that switch to "on" for a female (providing she is attracted to men and not women) is your "maleness." If you can define and then objectively single out male traits and embody these traits, you will foster desire and attraction from your female.
> Early on, when things are new and young, when a man is free and the world is ahead of him, he is fit and attractive enough to have landed this women, it's EASY. As the years roll along, you start showing your age and you realize that you're not going to conquer the world, THIS is the most vulnerable time for loss of attraction.
> ...



UMP good post, enjoyed reading it!

And something for us (men) to keep in mind.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

UMP said:


> I am glad you asked.
> It's NOT like earning something via covert contract.
> It has to do with your quality as a male. The biological triggers that switch to "on" for a female (providing she is attracted to men and not women) is your "maleness." If you can define and then objectively single out male traits and embody these traits, you will foster desire and attraction from your female.
> Early on, when things are new and young, when a man is free and the world is ahead of him, he is fit and attractive enough to have landed this women, it's EASY. As the years roll along, you start showing your age and you realize that you're not going to conquer the world, THIS is the most vulnerable time for loss of attraction.
> ...


They are attracted to men who *could *cheat on them. Obviously they *prefer *men who don't cheat on them, but that doesn't make those men more sexually attractive.



UMP said:


> 4. Provide. What married women is going to be sexually attracted to someone who cannot or will not provide for her and her family?


Many of them; just read the threads here about wives who cheat on their providing husbands with ne'er-do-wells.

Again, you are conflating "desirable" traits with "attractive" traits. They are not the same.



UMP said:


> 7. Sexually selfless. What married women is going to be sexually attracted to a man that is not interested in rocking HER world and only interested in getting off?


Again, this is wrong, as a matter of attraction. A man who takes what he wants is more attractive than one who waits on her.



UMP said:


> It has nothing to do with "blaming" the man, it has everything to do with BEING a man.
> 
> Are you a man?
> 
> Attraction is not an entitlement, it's earned through hard work on YOURSELF. Married women HATE giving out sexual welfare checks!


Other than those disagreements, you are right on. >


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

technovelist said:


> They are attracted to men who *could *cheat on them. Obviously they *prefer *men who don't cheat on them, but that doesn't make those men more sexually attractive.Yes, but if you do cheat you become sexually "unattractive."
> 
> 
> Many of them; just read the threads here about wives who cheat on their providing husbands with ne'er-do-wells.Yes, but maybe because they have failed to begin with. Not saying this is fair or right, just perhaps a reality of the situation.
> ...


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## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

jld said:


> Fabulous post, UMP. Has to be one of TAM's best for 2015.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sure, it's a good list for guys looking to be the best versions of themselves. 

Of course, there's also a similar list for women whose men show little interest in them. 

Men and women fake it (I'm talking about satisfaction), though the idea of women faking it seems accepted and attributable to the defects of men and the idea of men faking it seems unusual and attributable to... men again. 

At least that's how I read a lot of the stuff on TAM. Maybe I'm just projecting.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

VermisciousKnid said:


> Sure, it's a good list for guys looking to be the best versions of themselves.
> 
> Of course, there's also a similar list for women whose men show little interest in them.
> 
> ...


Personally, I only blame myself for my wifes past lack of sexual attraction toward me. Is this right or wrong? I really don't know.
However, I do know a few things. 

1. I am a man, therefore I can only operate from that perspective.

2. I believe I can effect change. If my wife reacts to something I do or don't do, perhaps it behooves me to get off my asss and do something positive about it.

It's the only way I know of to change fakery to truth.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

VermisciousKnid said:


> Sure, it's a good list for guys looking to be the best versions of themselves.
> 
> Of course, there's also a similar list for women whose men show little interest in them.
> 
> ...


I think that it depends on the need that's being described and the level of importance each partner places on that need. 

For example, we sometimes hear how men 'fake' interest in their wive's daily lives or conversations. It's the guy saying 'tell me about your day dear' when the last thing he wants to do is listen to every little detail of his wife's day. It's a known fact that women use more words (i.e. details) in their stories than men typically do. It's an accepted 'defect' (to use your word) of women. It's not right, but he may 'fake' interest in an effort to meet her need for conversation. But if the shoe were on the other foot, it would seem unusual for a woman 'not' to want to engage her spouse (fake interest) in conversation, no?


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Lila said:


> I think that it depends on the need that's being described and the level of importance each partner places on that need.
> 
> For example, we sometimes hear how men 'fake' interest in their wive's daily lives or conversations. It's the guy saying 'tell me about your day dear' when the last thing he wants to do is listen to every little detail of his wife's day. It's a known fact that women use more words (i.e. details) in their stories than men typically do. It's an accepted 'defect' (to use your word) of women. It's not right, but he may 'fake' interest in an effort to meet her need for conversation. But if the shoe were on the other foot, it would seem unusual for a woman 'not' to want to engage her spouse (fake interest) in conversation, no?


True, 
However, I really try/tried to listen to my wife. I have found that if I honestly give her my undivided attention and be patient enough to wait for the punch line, I can truthfully become interested in what she is saying and how she is saying it.
I guess this would fall into the "fake it till you make it" point of view.

On the other hand, I will go on and on to my wife about how I built something. When I see her eyes glaze over, I don't take it personally. In other words, I believe the onus to listen or stop talking when needed is on the man. Is this right or wrong?
Don't know, but it is my chosen reality.

I guess when it all comes down to it, I believe it's the mans duty to "take the bullitt."


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## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

Lila said:


> I think that it depends on the need that's being described and the level of importance each partner places on that need.
> 
> For example, we sometimes hear how men 'fake' interest in their wive's daily lives or conversations. It's the guy saying 'tell me about your day dear' when the last thing he wants to do is listen to every little detail of his wife's day. It's a known fact that women use more words (i.e. details) in their stories than men typically do. It's an accepted 'defect' (to use your word) of women. It's not right, but he may 'fake' interest in an effort to meet her need for conversation. But if the shoe were on the other foot, it would seem unusual for a woman 'not' to want to engage her spouse (fake interest) in conversation, no?


Well, we know that men and women aren't mirror images of each other. A man asking a woman about her day and then completely zoning out and not being able to remember a shred of what she said might be equivalent of a woman faking interest during sex. Each one is being deceptive about something that matters most to their spouse. 

So the advice is that the man needs to up his game in both cases. He needs to up his game so his wife doesn't need to fake it and he needs to be more interested in his wife's internal life so he doesn't need to fake it. 

Like I said, I'm probably projecting too much.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

UMP said:


> True,
> However, I really try/tried to listen to my wife. I have found that if I honestly give her my undivided attention and be patient enough to wait for the punch line, I can truthfully become interested in what she is saying and how she is saying it.
> I guess this would fall into the "fake it till you make it" point of view.
> 
> ...


You are a role model for the men of TAM, UMP. The success of your marriage proves it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

jld said:


> You are a role model for the men of TAM, UMP. The success of your marriage proves it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This my be a bit selfish or flat out wrong, but I get immense satisfaction when I can see my wife is sexually attracted to me. When I see she is FULLY into me and is having genuine over the top orgasms, it really turns those "bullitts" into flies.
In other words, it's all worth it.

Don't get me wrong, my wife is VERY respectful of me and I get treated like a king, IMO. However, I did have to make a massive amount personal change to effect this behavior.

In the end, the reward is worth more than the sacrifice.


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## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

UMP said:


> True,
> However, I really try/tried to listen to my wife. I have found that if I honestly give her my undivided attention and be patient enough to wait for the punch line, I can truthfully become interested in what she is saying and how she is saying it.
> I guess this would fall into the "fake it till you make it" point of view.
> 
> ...


Ah. But does your wife know that you feel you are "taking a bullet"? I think that many don't believe in that concept. 

Again, speaking from my own experience. I have taken many bullets stoically with no recognition or thanks from my wife. Yes, projecting. What else can I do?


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

I agree with technovelist also. My experience has been that women generally look to their peers and friends to decide what they want. If 5 women think that a dress is good, and they think that it is "okay", they will end up wanting to buy it. Same with husbands. If a woman's husband gets hit on by other women and is generally desired, then the woman feels more attraction for him. Women in general want to have something that others covet.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

VermisciousKnid said:


> Ah. But does your wife know that you feel you are "taking a bullet"? I think that many don't believe in that concept.
> 
> Again, speaking from my own experience. I have taken many bullets stoically with no recognition or thanks from my wife. Yes, projecting. What else can I do?


This is true. I feel the same.
I could have focused only on my career and taken a traveling consultant job or moved somewhere else, but i did not because I did not want to uproot her. I feel she is very ungrateful about that.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Lila said:


> I think that it depends on the need that's being described and the level of importance each partner places on that need.
> 
> For example, we sometimes hear how men 'fake' interest in their wive's daily lives or conversations. It's the guy saying 'tell me about your day dear' when the last thing he wants to do is listen to every little detail of his wife's day. It's a known fact that women use more words (i.e. details) in their stories than men typically do. It's an accepted 'defect' (to use your word) of women. It's not right, but he may 'fake' interest in an effort to meet her need for conversation. But if the shoe were on the other foot, it would seem unusual for a woman 'not' to want to engage her spouse (fake interest) in conversation, no?


I've got a problem with UMP's view. Sure, the man needs to be as good a man as he was when they were married, and it sure doesn't hurt if he becomes a better man, but I don't see how it's all on him.

To take Lila's scenario; let's say my wife has a need to talk to me an hour a day. In the early days, when the relationship was new and exciting, I endlessly listened to anything she wanted to talk about. Now, the early relationship excitement is over. I decide that I'm not prepared to listen to her unless the conversation is something that I'm very interested in. After all, that was the old me. I'm not like that anymore. Things have changed. 

Do I owe her nothing? Is it all up to her to read up on topics that I care about so that she can engage me in conversation by talking about things I'm actually interested in. Do I no longer have any obligation to meet her needs regarding conversation? Is it all on her? Is she expected to be satisfied by no longer talking about what matters the most to her?

Sure, I could change everything I do to make sex so exciting for her that she just wants if for her own pleasure; but, what if that isn't what I want to spend my life doing? What about her attention to my needs? Am I wrong to expect her to put out some effort in that regard as well? It shouldn't be a one way street either way. If we're both genuinely interested in each other's happiness, I'll make an effort to show an interest in what she wants to talk about and she'll make an effort not to bore me to tears. I'd expect the same the other way around.

If sex is very important to me, if I'm not being a d!ck, if I'm in roughly the same shape I was when we met and I'm not happy with our sex life, I expect her to join me in figuring out what to do to improve the situation. If she doesn't, then she just doesn't care about my happiness and I'm NOT okay with that.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

VermisciousKnid said:


> Ah. But does your wife know that you feel you are "taking a bullet"? I think that many don't believe in that concept.
> 
> Again, speaking from my own experience. I have taken many bullets stoically with no recognition or thanks from my wife. Yes, projecting. What else can I do?


Ah, That's the rub.
If you are truly "taking the bullitt" you can't even let on that you've taken one. That's an integral part of the process. :grin2:

Same for shiit tests. If you let on that it bothers you in the least, you have failed already. It's a state of mind.

What would James Bond do? :grin2:

What else can you do? Fuuck her brains out. Leave her on the bed as a lifeless piece of flesh of which you have wringed out every possible erotic pleasure she is capable of expressing and feeling.
That's what you can do.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

UMP said:


> True,
> However, I really try/tried to listen to my wife. I have found that if I honestly give her my undivided attention and be patient enough to wait for the punch line, I can truthfully become interested in what she is saying and how she is saying it.
> I guess this would fall into the "fake it till you make it" point of view.
> 
> ...


Each of us just not bothering to listen to the other is fair. Makes for a bad relationship, but it's fair.

Each of us trying our best to show interest in what the other is saying (and each of us trying to avoid boring each other excessively), is fair and makes for a good relationship.

Me doing all the work and my wife doing nothing makes for a one-sided relationship. I'm not interested in that.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> Each of us just not bothering to listen to the other is fair. Makes for a bad relationship, but it's fair.
> 
> Each of us trying our best to show interest in what the other is saying (and each of us trying to avoid boring each other excessively), is fair and makes for a good relationship.
> 
> Me doing all the work and my wife doing nothing makes for a one-sided relationship. I'm not interested in that.


I agree with you.
My only point is if YOU go beyond what is "fair" if you go the extra mile, if you be the BEST you can be, you will be rewarded for it.
My reward is seeing my wife sexually satisfied and "wanting" more of me in the process.
Life is NOT fair. The spoils go to the victor.

Be victorious.

BTW- I am NOT talking about lack of respect from your wife. I will not stand for that. It's not about folding like a cheap chair, it's also about having boundaries and standing up for them too.

Rule your kingdom, but be a gracious, kind king.

The carrot is more powerful than the stick.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

VermisciousKnid said:


> Well, we know that men and women aren't mirror images of each other. A man asking a woman about her day and then completely zoning out and not being able to remember a shred of what she said might be equivalent of a woman faking interest during sex. Each one is being deceptive about something that matters most to their spouse.
> 
> So the advice is that the man needs to up his game in both cases. He needs to up his game so his wife doesn't need to fake it and he needs to be more interested in his wife's internal life so he doesn't need to fake it.
> 
> Like I said, I'm probably projecting too much.


I wasn't suggesting that men should 'up their game' to be more interested in their wives life, just as I'm not implying that women should 'up their game' so that they become more interested in sex with their husbands. What I was saying is that people place importance on different needs. A husband's needs may not be the same as a wife's needs, in which case 'fake' enthusiasm is sometimes required to meet those needs. Think 'dig deep'. Loving partners don't do it out of spite or anger. They do it to make each other happy.

Some husbands, like @UMP, make a conscious choice (he used that word in his post) to 'up their game' in all things concerning their relationship. This is taking ownership of it. The success or failure rests squarely on their shoulders. It's a big responsibility, and that is their _choice_. No one is saying this is the ONLY choice.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> I've got a problem with UMP's view. Sure, the man needs to be as good a man as he was when they were married, and it sure doesn't hurt if he becomes a better man, but I don't see how it's all on him.
> 
> To take Lila's scenario; let's say my wife has a need to talk to me an hour a day. In the early days, when the relationship was new and exciting, I endlessly listened to anything she wanted to talk about. Now, the early relationship excitement is over. I decide that I'm not prepared to listen to her unless the conversation is something that I'm very interested in. After all, that was the old me. I'm not like that anymore. Things have changed.
> 
> ...


Buddy400, in general the popular way of thinking is that if the man isn't happy, it is his fault. If the woman is not happy, it is the man's fault for making her unhappy.

Man's fault in every way.


Example, 2 nights ago, I hugged my wife in bed and kissed her cheek. She lay there, stiff like a log. She let me kiss her but there was nothing from her side. I guess she assumed I wanted sex so maybe was trying to hint that she wasn't in the mood. So after some time I turned back to my side and tried to go to sleep. So my wife turns to me and taunts "What happened? You just turned away? Did you get angry? You only want one thing". 

Now how did she assume I wanted that one thing at that time? Actually I was just going for some kissing and hugging. We had guests in the house so sex was not what I was shooting for. But she wanted to blame me for her behavior of being stiff as a log. I just ignored her and said nothing because I knew her period was near and she would be cranky. After 5 minutes she repeated what she said trying to engage me into a fight maybe, and then when I did not respond, she went to sleep.

Next time, I'll just clearly say what I was looking for and then not engage in any argument. Something like "I was looking to hug and kiss you but I didn't see you respond so I decided to let you sleep". She won't like it because it would make her seem unresponsive and she loves to blame me for everything.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

nirvana said:


> Buddy400, in general the popular way of thinking is that if the man isn't happy, it is his fault. If the woman is not happy, it is the man's fault for making her unhappy.
> 
> Man's fault in every way.


If this is true, and it probably is, think of it in a different way.
Instead of the glass being half empty, think of it as half full.

If the fault lies with the man than the ability to succeed, the ability to effect change also lies with the man.

Own it.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

nirvana said:


> Buddy400, in general the popular way of thinking is that if the man isn't happy, it is his fault. If the woman is not happy, it is the man's fault for making her unhappy.
> 
> Man's fault in every way.
> 
> ...


Even if you "clearly say what you were looking for" she won't believe you anyway. You know that :grin2:

Here is what you do. You go over to hug and kiss, and she is stiff as a board. You move to your side and after awhile she says "What happened? You just turned away? Did you get angry? You only want one thing". 

You turn to her, softly hold both your hands on her cheeks and say with a big smile on your face "honey, you are so beautiful" kiss her on the lips and change the subject.


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## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

UMP said:


> I agree with you.
> *My only point is if YOU go beyond what is "fair" if you go the extra mile, if you be the BEST you can be, you will be rewarded for it.*
> My reward is seeing my wife sexually satisfied and "wanting" more of me in the process.
> Life is NOT fair. The spoils go to the victor.
> ...


It is because life is not fair that the statement I bolded is not true. At least not necessarily with one's current spouse. But improving one's self is never a bad thing. 

But congratulations to you for having that with your wife.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

VermisciousKnid said:


> It is because life is not fair that the statement I bolded is not true. At least not necessarily with one's current spouse. But improving one's self is never a bad thing.
> 
> But congratulations to you for having that with your wife.


True, 
However, your chances for success will be dramatically increased, if not with this woman, certainly the next.

Precisely BECAUSE it is not fair you must do everything within your own power to effect change. Otherwise it's just a crapp shoot.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

nirvana said:


> Buddy400, in general the popular way of thinking is that if the man isn't happy, it is his fault. If the woman is not happy, it is the man's fault for making her unhappy.
> 
> Man's fault in every way.
> 
> ...


Just to be clear, I've been very happily married for 26 years. I do everything I can to make my wife happy (without overly compromising my own happiness) and she does everything she can to make me happy. It is possible.


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