# Would like to understand my wife's point of view on virginity



## Parallax857 (May 15, 2012)

This is not an important question. I'm posting because I'm wanting to better understand my wife and appreciate her point of view. We have a great marriage. The sex is beautiful. We've been together 12 years and get closer with each passing day. She's my best friend and truly one of the best people I've ever known. I feel like I really hit the jackpot when she came along and then chose me to be her husband.

Here's the question. When I was a lot younger, I was with a woman who was a total virgin. She had kissed a boy once and that was it. He may have brushed against her breast through a shirt and thick sweater just once during their (one) make-out session but it might have been an accident that he didn't even notice. She was truly inexperienced, so that's what I think of as a virgin. She was only 19 when we met and had attended an all girls boarding school. One that kept boys far away. She was also very Catholic and had been taught to save herself for marriage. (Of course, given that she was 19 and late to the party, within days of our meeting and falling in love, we slept together -- and things went from there. She had a very healthy libido.)

She and I had a beautiful relationship for a few years. Five or six total. The first four were great. Then we struggled for about a year. The final year, was really hard as she had one foot out the door.

But in the beginning, she was truly all in, probably because she had never been scarred by a failed relationship. I was a bit older but we were both young, so there was a lot of sexual energy. We had a great time. Ultimately her inexperience became problematic because she wasn't prepared to work through problems when they arose. She expected the infatuation to go on effortlessly forever. I knew that was unrealistic and advocated couples counseling. But when things got hard, she had developed feelings for someone else. She didn't know that those initial feelings didn't necessarily mean anything. She didn't understand that she was fantasizing about who the guy was based on very limited information and he was likely not the guy she imagined. But there was no talking her out of it. 

It was painful when I found out she had fallen for this other guy. She set her feelings for him aside (which I knew was super hard for her) so we could work on our relationship. We did some counseling together but it went nowhere. Looking back, we didn't have a chance. It was impossible for me, a real person, to compete with her fantasy. And she didn't know was a fantasy because she had only known our relationship, which had started off in a magical way. She eventually left. 

It was super painful. We remained friends for a while and then she backed off. Years later, we reconnected (just as friends). I think that, now, having been around the block in various relationships, she understands that what we had was extraordinary and she regrets leaving without trying to work through the challenges. She has since been married and divorced. She's alone now. She knows I'm happily married and is respectful of that. I tried to introduce her to my wife (because I could see them becomming great friends). I did briefly -- they met during a Zoom call and really connected -- but she later told me it was too painful to see us together, so I've just let her be since then. I still have tremendous love for her, as she was an extraordinary person, but I've long ago moved on and wouldn't want to go back to her. I'll always love her as a friend but that's all.

I mention her primarily because she taught me the downside of being with a woman so inexperienced. It was great at first but I ultimately paid a huge price. After that, I went many years before marrying again. She had set the bar really high for anyone else. I dated a lot of women but, when things weren't great, I wasn't willing to settle. Which was fine. I was content to be single.

More than 10 years later, I met my wife. That was, as stated at the beginning of this ramble, 12 years ago. At that point, I certainly wasn't expecting anyone to be a virgin. If I'd thought a woman might be, I'd have had concerns. Apart from questions as to why a mature person had never experienced this aspect of life and what it might mean in terms of possible barriers to intimacy, I knew that "pure as the virgin snow" was great with my ex when things first started but ultimately had a huge downside. 

Fortunately, I didn't know this about my now-wife right away so we had time to get to know each other. I saw that she was very special. Before long, she surprised me by telling me she was a virgin. I asked what she meant because she was in her mid-thirties and I knew she had been married to another woman. That was one of the first things she'd shared with me. She had been out of that relationship for more than a year but had not dated anyone since. She had taken her time to lick her wounds and wanted to proceed cautiously. I was fine with that.

When I asked what she was saying with regard to virginity, she explained that she had dated boys in high school and college but never allowed things to go past third base. She had fear of men. There may have been early sexual trauma of some sort. She couldn't remember it. But she knew she felt genuine fear around males. After college, she decided to date women and that's when sexuality opened up for her and became passionate. I didn't ask for details.

I said that, if she had been in multiple relationships, gone to third base with guys and gone "all the way" (whatever that means) with women, that I didn't think of her as sexually inexperienced (which was fine, I wasn't wanting or needing that). It seemed to me she was a normal woman who'd had a normal life. If I had any concerns, it was that sex had only opened for her with women so I wondered whether she really wanted to be with a man. She explained that she didn't think she had ever really been a lesbian. That she had been afraid of men and hiding out, but that she was always attracted to men (not women). She was no longer willing to hide out from life and was ready to move forward with the right guy. That it had to be someone very kind and worthy of her trust. We had bonded deeply by then. We both felt something extraordinary. So we moved forward together.

She explained that in her mind, there's something elementally different about a penis inside a vagina that's beyond any other kind of sexual experience. That nothing else could compare. At the time, she was not speaking from experience as she'd never taken a penis inside. She had broken up with guys who weren't willing to be patient (or they'd broken up with her). It had been many years since then. She had been with women for more than ten years, the last one the only relationship she considered truly emotionally intimate. But, looking back, she said, it was clear to her that they were meant to be friends (not lovers). 

After we'd had sex the first time, she continued to maintain that there was something fundamentally different about penis-in-vagina sex. She still feels that way 12 years later. That it is fulfilling in a way that no other kind of sex could be. I recently needed some surgery to address prostate issues. We met with the doctor together and chose a procedure least likely to disrupt our sexual relationship. It was important to her that, if possible, I still be able to ejaculate inside her. She said that she can feel it and this is a really important part of the experience. The doctor said that retrograde ejaculation (where the semen goes into the bladder) should feel identical to both of us. But she preferred that I still be able to come externally (even though we have a child together and are not interested in having more). 

We chose a less invasive procedure and I had a good result. So no problems there. But I'm still puzzled by her sense of sexuality and virginity. It's a distinction without a different because, as I said, we have a great marriage. I'm gratified that she considers our sex really special. But her way of seeing things doesn't quite make sense to me. I respect that it's her truth and don't want to change it. I don't need to understand it but would like to. Just so I can feel as emotionally close to her as possible. If I could, I would align with her completely. But, by its nature, that has to be authentic and would require me to grock her point of view.

I'm curious what others (particularly women) think. Is there something elementally different about taking a penis in? Before we met, I always felt that oral sex was the most intimate. For me, placing my lips against a woman's vagina and inside, or her placing her face, mouth and tongue against my penis, felt as physically intimate as two people could be. But even more so, emotional intimacy gave rise to intense feelings during sex. My earlier ex, the one who came to the relationship with almost zero experience, saw things pretty much as I did, though she might have picked up those notions from me since I was her first and she was so young. So I strongly influenced her in many ways, at least at that point in time. Since then she might have revised her views; I've not asked.

I don't think that there's a right or wrong here. In my view, sex shows up differently for everyone. I'm just wondering if some of the women who post here can help me better understand my wife's point of view. I've asked her to explain many times and she's done her best, but so far her explanations haven't hit home. Perhaps other women can help me to understand. Thanks.


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## D0nnivain (Mar 13, 2021)

What we think doesn't matter. She is your wife. You both have to do what is best for your marriage. 

If you came here asking what flavor of ice cream was best & we all told you chocolate was best but your wife preferred vanilla, you can't very well tell her to accept chocolate because a bunch of people on the internet like that better.

You are also never going to understand because you are a man. Sex for you will always be external. For a woman we have to receive our partner inside of our body. The closest you can come is a French kiss where the other person's tongue is in your mouth.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Parallax857 said:


> Is there something elementally different about taking a penis in?


Oh, good gravy! You can't possibly be as old as you're stating.


Parallax857 said:


> I tried to introduce her to my wife (because I could see them becomming great friends


What purpose would this have served?


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

People will tell themselves whatever they want to believe. Just look at the poophole loophole crowd. You are still a virgin, as long as you only take it up the butt


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## Angie?or… (Nov 15, 2021)

I do believe that PIV sex is the ultimate or only “real” and complete sex. The parts God or nature made to go together. The possibility of making a new human together. Looking into each other’s eyes as you experience orgasm together and become one with each other and the universe. Profound and beyond words. Everything else is just foreplay.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Mammals were made to breed and reproduce.

We do that through intercourse. So yeah, it’s more natural and instinctive.

I’m not sure why you’re questioning that.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Not sure what to make of this...


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> Not sure what to make of this...


I know what to make of this but I don't want to get banned.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

I understand what your wife is saying. There is something different about penetration. It’s hard to explain, I can’t think of a good analogy that men would understand.


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## so_sweet (10 mo ago)

Parallax857 said:


> When I was a lot younger, I was with a woman who was a total virgin.


Kind of like how Yoda said, "Do or do not. There is no try", there is no middle ground, either you are a virgin or you are not. 

This might help:
vir·gin
/ˈvərjən/
noun
1. a person who has never had sexual intercourse.
"she's still a virgin"


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## Parallax857 (May 15, 2012)

Angie?or… said:


> I do believe that PIV sex is the ultimate or only “real” and complete sex. The parts God or nature made to go together. The possibility of making a new human together. Looking into each other’s eyes as you experience orgasm together and become one with each other and the universe. Profound and beyond words. Everything else is just foreplay.


Thanks for sharing your perspective. It's good to know that at least some other women see things as my wife does.


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## Parallax857 (May 15, 2012)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I understand what your wife is saying. There is something different about penetration. It’s hard to explain, I can’t think of a good analogy that men would understand.


Thank you for your response. If you think of that analogy, please post it. I get that sexual intercourse could be perceived as different than anything else to a woman. It means taking a penis inside your body and also taking in a man's semen. I guess that would be profoundly different.


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## Parallax857 (May 15, 2012)

so_sweet said:


> Kind of like how Yoda said, "Do or do not. There is no try", there is no middle ground, either you are a virgin or you are not.
> 
> This might help:
> vir·gin
> ...


I don't see virginity as binary like that. People can differing levels of sexual experience. I get why some people don't even believe in the concept of virginity.


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## Parallax857 (May 15, 2012)

D0nnivain said:


> What we think doesn't matter. She is your wife. You both have to do what is best for your marriage.
> 
> If you came here asking what flavor of ice cream was best & we all told you chocolate was best but your wife preferred vanilla, you can't very well tell her to accept chocolate because a bunch of people on the internet like that better.
> 
> You are also never going to understand because you are a man. Sex for you will always be external. For a woman we have to receive our partner inside of our body. The closest you can come is a French kiss where the other person's tongue is in your mouth.


I think what one thinks matters very much. Our ideas can help us align together emotionally or keep us in a place of separation. That's why I posted. Because I want to understand my wife's point of view.


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## D0nnivain (Mar 13, 2021)

Parallax857 said:


> I want to understand my wife's point of view.


How is talking to me or anybody else on this board going to help you understand your wife. You need to talk to her if you want to understand her.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Parallax857 said:


> Thank you for your response. If you think of that analogy, please post it. I get that sexual intercourse could be perceived as different than anything else to a woman. It means taking a penis inside your body and also taking in a man's semen. I guess that would be profoundly different.


I'm trying to think of something. It's having someone inside you; it puts you in a very vulnerable position and it's hard to describe. "Invasive" is the wrong word, because that sounds like something bad. It's just that it requires a lot of trust to open yourself up (if you'll pardon the phrasing 😉 ) like that. I'm struggling for a non-sexual analogy. It's not about semen, at least not for me. It's more about having someone enter your body. It's hard (again, phrasing 😉) to describe, especially on a forum where I can't convey tone or facial expression, without it sounding like it's a bad thing. That is just not helpful at all, I know, I hope I can think of a better way to say it. Your wife isn't alone, I feel the same way about it and know of other women who do too.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

If you wife had many sexual encounters with guys and was actually married to a woman, it can't be said she was a virgin.


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## so_sweet (10 mo ago)

.


Parallax857 said:


> I don't see virginity as binary like that. People can differing levels of sexual experience. I get why some people don't even believe in the concept of virginity.


Fair enough and of course you have the right to your opinion on how you see virginity.

For me, having sexual intercourse is what defined losing my virginity. The first man I had sexual intercourse with was my first husband when I was 19 years old. It hurt a lot and I bled for the first few times (each time hurting and bleeding less) and it was not the least bit pleasurable for me those first few times. Actually, sex was never pleasurable for me with him (he was physically abusive). I am remarried and happy now.


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## Parallax857 (May 15, 2012)

D0nnivain said:


> How is talking to me or anybody else on this board going to help you understand your wife. You need to talk to her if you want to understand her.


We've discussed it many times. I've never quite understood. Sometimes hearing other perspectives can be helpful. Not a big deal. Free free to ignore the conversation if it triggers you.


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## Parallax857 (May 15, 2012)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I'm trying to think of something. It's having someone inside you; it puts you in a very vulnerable position and it's hard to describe. "Invasive" is the wrong word, because that sounds like something bad. It's just that it requires a lot of trust to open yourself up (if you'll pardon the phrasing 😉 ) like that. I'm struggling for a non-sexual analogy. It's not about semen, at least not for me. It's more about having someone enter your body. It's hard (again, phrasing 😉) to describe, especially on a forum where I can't convey tone or facial expression, without it sounding like it's a bad thing. That is just not helpful at all, I know, I hope I can think of a better way to say it. Your wife isn't alone, I feel the same way about it and know of other women who do too.


That's actually extremely helpful. I'm getting it I think. 

It's reminding me of a time when I had to have a procedure called a cystoscopy in which a scope is inserted into the penis. I've had it twice now. The first time, more than 20 years ago, the doctor just grabbed me and began inserting with no real preparation or warning. It was traumatizing. I had to have it again this last year and I was scared because of that earlier trauma. But this time the doctor (a different one of course) promised that it wouldn't be traumatic and it wasn't. Not that it was pleasurable -- far from it. But it wasn't horrible and I so appreciated his gentleness.


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## Parallax857 (May 15, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> If you wife had many sexual encounters with guys and was actually married to a woman, it can't be said she was a virgin.


My wife would obviously disagree. This isn't one of those things that can be solved by offering a definition. Further upstream, someone offered the opposite definition. No penile insertion = virginity. I'm not looking for "the answer". I'm trying to better understand my wife's perspective. Thanks.


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## Parallax857 (May 15, 2012)

so_sweet said:


> .
> 
> Fair enough and of course you have the right to your opinion on how you see virginity.
> 
> For me, having sexual intercourse is what defined losing my virginity. The first man I had sexual intercourse with was my first husband when I was 19 years old. It hurt a lot and I bled for the first few times (each time hurting and bleeding less) and it was not the least bit pleasurable for me those first few times. Actually, sex was never pleasurable for me with him (he was physically abusive). I am remarried and happy now.


So glad you're happily married now. I've known a lot of women who had similar first experiences. My wife didn't have that issue. Presumably whatever sexual experiences she had with women broke down her hymen. The vagina itself doesn't stretch in a way that causes permanent change. The muscles are like the muscles of the face that allow one to smile. They stretch and revert to the original position over and over, with no change whatsoever. But the hymen is a membrane that partially covers the vaginal canal in some women who haven't had sex. Not all women are born with the hymen. During sex, it doesn't "pop" (the way high school kids talk about). Rather, it stretches and wears down. It can tear, in which case there's blood. If stretched by a penis (or anything else), it's likely to hurt. If a couple goes slow enough, it's less likely to hurt. The more lubrication the better and also the slower the stretching.

I'm sorry if this is coming across as "man-splaining". That's not my intention. You may know this already but perhaps someone else would benefit. They don't teach this stuff to young people so a lot of folks carry misconceptions (no pun intended).

The first time I had sex with the earlier girlfriend who had almost zero sexual experience of any kind, I tried to go slow but wasn't all that experienced myself and it did hurt her. She cried but didn't want me to stop. I felt really bad. When we were done, she expressed happiness. She smiled this sweet smile. But then she asked that we not do it again anytime soon, which I of course agreed to. Said we would do it when she was ready.

About a week later, she wanted to try again. We had done a bit of research and found out about KYJelly. I went to the drugstore and, having no idea how much was needed, bought this ridiculously large tube. Wanted to make sure we would have enough. I doubt we used enough for the deformation of the tube to be noticeable. It was helpful the next few times. After that, she didn't need or want it. We had a lovely sex life those first few years. Incredibly sweet and intimate.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Parallax857 said:


> That's actually extremely helpful. I'm getting it I think.
> 
> It's reminding me of a time when I had to have a procedure called a cystoscopy in which a scope is inserted into the penis. I've had it twice now. The first time, more than 20 years ago, the doctor just grabbed me and began inserting with no real preparation or warning. It was traumatizing. I had to have it again this last year and I was scared because of that earlier trauma. But this time the doctor (a different one of course) promised that it wouldn't be traumatic and it wasn't. Not that it was pleasurable -- far from it. But it wasn't horrible and I so appreciated his gentleness.


This is a really good analogy. I'm sorry that had to be done to you, it sounds just awful, I didn't know you guys had to go through that. Yikes. They do some invasive stuff to us sometimes, but that's scary and that first doctor needs a stern talking-to for being so cold. There's no excuse for that. 😡 You'd think since he HAS a penis he would understand your feelings a little better. Not that sex is really like that, but it's a closer analogy than I've been able to come up with. You're letting another person inside your body, there's a deep emotional element to it.


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## Parallax857 (May 15, 2012)

TexasMom1216 said:


> This is a really good analogy. I'm sorry that had to be done to you, it sounds just awful, I didn't know you guys had to go through that. Yikes. They do some invasive stuff to us sometimes, but that's scary and that first doctor needs a stern talking-to for being so cold. There's no excuse for that. 😡 You'd think since he HAS a penis he would understand your feelings a little better. Not that sex is really like that, but it's a closer analogy than I've been able to come up with. You're letting another person inside your body, there's a deep emotional element to it.


Yes, it was jarring and I remember thinking at the time that it gave me insight into what it might feel like to be a woman who was raped. I felt violated though I knew there was no malicious intent. If anything he was probably just trying to help. He simply lacked grace or understanding. A lot of doctors are like that. Some of them are engineering types. Men on the spectrum who have a difficult time placing themselves in someone else's shoes. 

The more recent doctor had great bedside manner. I asked for a sedative. He said he couldn't in good conscience give me one but he promised it wouldn't be terrible. And it wasn't. A bit uncomfortable but no big deal. He used a lot of lube and went slow. 

The procedure is done when they need to examine the bladder, the prostate or the urethra itself. The first time, I think I'd had some blood in my urine so they were checking for bladder health and to make sure there was no need to biopsy a growth. Fortunately there wasn't. This more recent time, I was trying to get off meds for enlarged prostate by submitting to surgery. One procedure requires an inspection of the prostate to make sure one is a good candidate. I was and the surgery was done soon after. It was successful and I've been off the meds for a few months.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

I am guessing 


Parallax857 said:


> My wife would obviously disagree. This isn't one of those things that can be solved by offering a definition. Further upstream, someone offered the opposite definition. No penile insertion = virginity. I'm not looking for "the answer". I'm trying to better understand my wife's perspective. Thanks.


I am guessing other things were inserted in there ,in her marriage and her other relationships?
She had has a marriage with a sexual relationship, no she wasn't a virgin. She had clearly had a lot of previous sexual experiences.


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## so_sweet (10 mo ago)

Parallax857 said:


> So glad you're happily married now. I've known a lot of women who had similar first experiences. My wife didn't have that issue. Presumably whatever sexual experiences she had with women broke down her hymen. The vagina itself doesn't stretch in a way that causes permanent change. The muscles are like the muscles of the face that allow one to smile. They stretch and revert to the original position over and over, with no change whatsoever. But the hymen is a membrane that partially covers the vaginal canal in some women who haven't had sex. Not all women are born with the hymen. During sex, it doesn't "pop" (the way high school kids talk about). Rather, it stretches and wears down. It can tear, in which case there's blood. If stretched by a penis (or anything else), it's likely to hurt. If a couple goes slow enough, it's less likely to hurt. The more lubrication the better and also the slower the stretching.
> 
> I'm sorry if this is coming across as "man-splaining". That's not my intention. You may know this already but perhaps someone else would benefit. They don't teach this stuff to young people so a lot of folks carry misconceptions (no pun intended).
> 
> ...


Thank-you.
Oh, and it didn't come across as mansplaining to me and also, yes, it may be beneficial to someone who doesn't know.
Take care.


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## Parallax857 (May 15, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> I am guessing
> 
> I am guessing other things were inserted in there ,in her marriage and her other relationships?
> She had has a marriage with a sexual relationship, no she wasn't a virgin. She had clearly had a lot of previous sexual experiences.


Right, that's been my point of view too. My wife feels differently. I'm trying to more fully understand her point of view so I can maybe join her in that way of seeing and thinking. It's meaningful to her so I'd like to share the experience.


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## Parallax857 (May 15, 2012)

so_sweet said:


> Thank-you.
> Oh, and it didn't come across as mansplaining to me and also, yes, it may be beneficial to someone who doesn't know.
> Take care.


Thanks SS. I appreciate you.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

We could not get any of our ladies to comment.

They all held their sides and giggled.

I am straight, not gay, so I cannot answer as a man.



_The Typist-_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Technically, I agree with your wife. If she never had intercourse, PIV, she was a virgin.

In the traditional and most basic definition, a girl/woman is a virgin if her hymen — a thin, fleshy tissue that stretches across part of the opening to the vagina — hasn’t been stretched apart or broken. Usually when the hymen is broken there is pain and bleeding. In the 'old days' (and still in some very traditional cultures) a woman is expected to produce the bloody sheets from her losing her virginity on her wedding night. If she can't produce that, her husband can divorce her for not being a virgin.

All the other stuff, like oral sex, hand jobs, etc. are considered someone just being sexual but they don't take away a woman's virginity. Today, with the way our society is constantly redefining words, a lot of the meaning of words like 'virginity' is getting diluted.

The discussion about what's more intimate PIV or oral. To a woman, I'd say that PIV is more intimate because not only is the woman allowing the man to enter her body, but she's letting his sperm into her body and potentially fertilize one of her eggs... to make her pregnant. There really is nothing more intimate for a woman than to be pregnant with a man's baby and to carry that baby for 9 months.


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## Parallax857 (May 15, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Technically, I agree with your wife. If she never had intercourse, PIV, she was a virgin.
> 
> In the traditional and most basic definition, a girl/woman is a virgin if her hymen — a thin, fleshy tissue that stretches across part of the opening to the vagina — hasn’t been stretched apart or broken. Usually when the hymen is broken there is pain and bleeding. In the 'old days' (and still in some very traditional cultures) a woman is expected to produce the bloody sheets from her losing her virginity on her wedding night. If she can't produce that, her husband can divorce her for not being a virgin.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your perspective. In truth, none of this matters. What's important is that we love each other and have a great marriage. Sometimes I wish we had met earlier, so we could have shared more years of our lives. But my guess is it wouldn't have worked. I wasn't ready for her. Perhaps she wasn't either. It's the total of our lives that brought us to the place and time where we met. It was a special moment. One of the highlights of my life. She truly had me at hello. A story in and of itself. I wasn't expecting it and I didn't know what hit me. As with any marriage, we've had to work through some challenging patches. Sometimes we still do. But we always come through, stronger and more intimate each time. After 12 years, the love between us is stronger than ever. Concepts like virginity are ultimately meaningless. Love is where it's at.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Parallax857 said:


> Thanks for your perspective. In truth, none of this matters. What's important is that we love each other and have a great marriage. Sometimes I wish we had met earlier, so we could have shared more years of our lives. But my guess is it wouldn't have worked. I wasn't ready for her. Perhaps she wasn't either. It's the total of our lives that brought us to the place and time where we met. It was a special moment. One of the highlights of my life. She truly had me at hello. A story in and of itself. I wasn't expecting it and I didn't know what hit me. As with any marriage, we've had to work through some challenging patches. Sometimes we still do. But we always come through, stronger and more intimate each time. After 12 years, the love between us is stronger than ever. Concepts like virginity are ultimately meaningless. Love is where it's at.


There you go. You apparently have all your answers already. Good luck!


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## Parallax857 (May 15, 2012)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> There you go. You apparently have all your answers already. Good luck!


This was never for me about getting "answers". A lot of folks seem to come at it that way, as if there's an objective definition of the term virginity. Rather, I was seeking to more fully understand my wife's sense of things so I could more fully align and authentically with her point of view. This thread has helped with that. Some of the women have helped me to understand where my wife is coming from. Not with definitions of virginity but by opening up about their own personal experiences and why sexuality shows up for them the way it does.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Parallax857 said:


> This was never for me about getting "answers". A lot of folks seem to come at it that way, as if there's an objective definition of the term virginity. Rather, I was seeking to more fully understand my wife's sense of things so I could more fully align and authentically with her point of view. This thread has helped with that. Some of the women have helped me to understand where my wife is coming from. Not with definitions of virginity but by opening up about their own personal experiences and why sexuality shows up for them the way it does.


Does she do any aligning with your POV?


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Parallax857 said:


> This was never for me about getting "answers". A lot of folks seem to come at it that way, as if there's an objective definition of the term virginity. Rather, I was seeking to more fully understand my wife's sense of things so I could more fully align and authentically with her point of view. This thread has helped with that. Some of the women have helped me to understand where my wife is coming from. Not with definitions of virginity but by opening up about their own personal experiences and why sexuality shows up for them the way it does.


Virginity is present, or it's not. Easy.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

D0nnivain said:


> What we think doesn't matter. She is your wife. You both have to do what is best for your marriage.
> 
> If you came here asking what flavor of ice cream was best & we all told you chocolate was best but your wife preferred vanilla, you can't very well tell her to accept chocolate because a bunch of people on the internet like that better.
> 
> You are also never going to understand because you are a man. Sex for you will always be external. For a woman we have to receive our partner inside of our body. The closest you can come is a French kiss where the other person's tongue is in your mouth.


You are Soo wrong!....everyone knows 🍓 is the best!


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

so_sweet said:


> Kind of like how Yoda said, "Do or do not. There is no try", there is no middle ground, either you are a virgin or you are not.
> 
> This might help:
> vir·gin
> ...


sexual contact between individuals involving penetration, typically culminating in orgasm or ejaculation.

If her partner used a vibrator or strap on her then she has had intercourse.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

With her definition of being a virgin until with a man, the inverse would also be correct. A bisexual man would then be a virgin until at which time he had PIV with a woman. Even though he may have been with other men for years.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

I personally don't agree that you wife was a virgin, she did have sex, just not PIV, still sex though. That said, I do agree that it is much different with PIV. I will never know what it is like to be penetrated like a woman, but consider the analog for men. A hand job or blow job is vastly different than PIV sex. There is a much different level of personal connection. Adding ejaculation with no condom takes it to another level, IMO.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Divinely Favored said:


> With her definition of being a virgin until with a man, the inverse would also be correct. A bisexual man would then be a virgin until at which time he had PIV with a woman. Even though he may have been with other men for years.


I know it's very common these days to use the word 'virgin' to characterize an adult male who has never had PIV sex. However, it's a loose use of the word since men don't have a hymen and men are not judged by society in the same way that women are. Even in the current western culture that minimizes the shaming of unmarried women who are not virgins, it just seems odd to me.

Women were judged and even ostracized or killed, often stoned, if they were not virgins on their wedding night. This is still true in many countries today. The term "virgin" has a very strong meaning for women. Have you ever heard of a man being stoned for not being a "virgin"? Nope.

Having lived for many years as a young female in cultures where this was the way women were judged, it seems like nonsense to use the same term that can get a woman ostracized, abandoned by her new husband and/or her family, and even killed to describe a guy who has chosen to not have PIV sex with a woman.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> I know it's very common these days to use the word 'virgin' to characterize an adult male who has never had PIV sex. However, it's a loose use of the word since men don't have a hymen and men are not judged by society in the same way that women are. Even in the current western culture that minimizes the shaming of unmarried women who are not virgins, it just seems odd to me.
> 
> Women were judged and even ostracized or killed, often stoned, if they were not virgins on their wedding night. This is still true in many countries today. The term "virgin" has a very strong meaning for women. Have you ever heard of a man being stoned for not being a "virgin"? Nope.
> 
> Having lived for many years as a young female in cultures where this was the way women were judged, it seems like nonsense to use the same term that can get a woman ostracized, abandoned by her new husband and/or her family, and even killed to describe a guy who has chosen to not have PIV sex with a woman.


Never seen proof a woman was stoned for not being a virgin. Divorced yes. Maybe killed by her own family but never seen by spouse. If either sex claims to be virgin but are not, then it is grounds for divorce if spouse has those convictions.

We're just talking about using definitions to cover term meanings. If term intercourse with opposite sex is used, then the inverse would also be a given. 

If penetration has occurred, whether MM MF or FF than intercourse has occurred.

Society is fickle...I had a friend who was a man ho...I tried warning girls, pissed him off I did...they would not listen. He would pump and dump, then they were upset? I told them! 

The reason I would not touch them with a barge pole is not that they had sex, it was they had sex with my friend. I would not touch a girl he had been with.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

Parallax857 said:


> I was seeking to more fully understand my wife's sense of things


On an aside point: as a man I can't understand men that knowingly married women that were in homosexual relationships for a big period of their life. Not that it will happen to you (which it most certainly could), but men that marry women that were in prior homosexual relationships have a much higher chances of eventually being dumped for another woman. I understand that being dumped by one's partner can happen at any time, even late in life all of the sudden, but when you know that your prospective partner has been involved for long period of time in just homosexual relationships you are asking for it by getting involved with someone like that.


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## Parallax857 (May 15, 2012)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Does she do any aligning with your POV?


All the time, brother. The reason our marriage is so successful is we're really good at finding the win-win. Not the grudging compromise but solutions that meet her needs and mine. There's a real art to that but it begins with deep listening, validation of each other's points of view and, above all, empathy. To really understand what the world looks like from where she stands. And for her to really understand what it looks like from mine. It's only when we've gotten to that place that we begin looking for solutions. People tend to seek solutions before doing the necessary groundwork first.


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## Parallax857 (May 15, 2012)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Virginity is present, or it's not. Easy.


That's not how I see things. I think every person has their own view of the world and that they're all internally valid. On something like this, I can understand those who believe the entire concept of virginity is flawed and meaningless. I can also understand those who say it's all about the penis inside the vagina. And I can understand all the flavors and shades in between. That's the cool thing about listening to learn and understand. We can cultivate curiosity, open our minds, and come to know ways of seeing the world that we hadn't considered. That's the sort of conversation that opens the door to intimacy. 

I really don't care if my wife was a virgin or not. That's meaningless. What's meaningful is that we hold deep love and intimacy.


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## Parallax857 (May 15, 2012)

Divinely Favored said:


> sexual contact between individuals involving penetration, typically culminating in orgasm or ejaculation.
> 
> If her partner used a vibrator or strap on her then she has had intercourse.


I appreciate that as a perfectly valid point of view. Your point of view, that clearly some folks agree with. I like to maintain a much more flexible outlook that can see multiple points of view. Yours but others as well.


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## Parallax857 (May 15, 2012)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I personally don't agree that you wife was a virgin, she did have sex, just not PIV, still sex though. That said, I do agree that it is much different with PIV. I will never know what it is like to be penetrated like a woman, but consider the analog for men. A hand job or blow job is vastly different than PIV sex. There is a much different level of personal connection. Adding ejaculation with no condom takes it to another level, IMO.


What you're saying resonates for me. I tend to initially come at it the way you do, that she wasn't a virgin because she was sexually experienced. But the more I sit with and consider her point of view, and what it must be like to be a woman in a sexual relationship, the more I can take in and align with her point of view. That's when I see the difference and it kind of blows my mind. I love your point about adding ejaculation to the mix. A woman who willingly has unprotected sex is volunteering to carry a man's sperm. In addition to the risk of pregnancy, I've heard that a woman develops antibodies to this foreign protein (as one would to a virus). It's got to be a big deal, psychologically speaking, at least to those who haven't numbed themselves to impact and potential meaning of the sexual experience. I say that because I've known people who have done so much sex that, to them, it becomes "just sex". I feel sorry for those who hold it that way as they miss out on so much.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Parallax857 said:


> That's not how I see things. I think every person has their own view of the world and that they're all internally valid. On something like this, I can understand those who believe the entire concept of virginity is flawed and meaningless. I can also understand those who say it's all about the penis inside the vagina. And I can understand all the flavors and shades in between. That's the cool thing about listening to learn and understand. We can cultivate curiosity, open our minds, and come to know ways of seeing the world that we hadn't considered. That's the sort of conversation that opens the door to intimacy.
> 
> I really don't care if my wife was a virgin or not. That's meaningless. What's meaningful is that we hold deep love and intimacy.


Your last paragraph is the only real substance there. That's a good to hear.


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## so_sweet (10 mo ago)

Parallax857 said:


> I appreciate that as a perfectly valid point of view. Your point of view, that clearly some folks agree with. I like to maintain a much more flexible outlook that can see multiple points of view. Yours but others as well.


Before this thread, I thought a woman being a virgin meant she had never had sexual intercourse with a man, but after reading posts in this thread, it's opened my eyes to other viewpoints. I'm happy to have learned something new!


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## Parallax857 (May 15, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> I know it's very common these days to use the word 'virgin' to characterize an adult male who has never had PIV sex. However, it's a loose use of the word since men don't have a hymen and men are not judged by society in the same way that women are. Even in the current western culture that minimizes the shaming of unmarried women who are not virgins, it just seems odd to me.
> 
> Women were judged and even ostracized or killed, often stoned, if they were not virgins on their wedding night. This is still true in many countries today. The term "virgin" has a very strong meaning for women. Have you ever heard of a man being stoned for not being a "virgin"? Nope.
> 
> Having lived for many years as a young female in cultures where this was the way women were judged, it seems like nonsense to use the same term that can get a woman ostracized, abandoned by her new husband and/or her family, and even killed to describe a guy who has chosen to not have PIV sex with a woman.


That makes a lot of sense to me. I can see why you would see male virginity as a completely different animal. 

I felt a sort of inverse shame as a man. I didn't lose my virginity until I was 19 and felt like a freak. Though it might not have been true, I felt like I was really late to the party. I was certainly one of the last among my friends. This brought to the surface feelings of inadequacy that I carried, which were also part and parcel of why it didn't happen until I was 19. 

None of which is on the same scale, even remotely, with **** shaming or, God forbid, honor killing and the like. I add it only so we don't lose sight of the fact that the concept of "virginity" can be troubling regardless of gender. At that age, I'd have preferred if it didn't exist as an idea. Of course, I'm old enough to have come of age at a time when there was a lot more focus on the concept of virginity than there is now. My first real girlfriend had been the girlfriend of one of my college friends before she was with me and this also left me feeling shame, which was exacerbated by my virginity. Brought me face to face with my sense of inadequacy as a man. 

I'm so glad to be far beyond that now. Looking back, it all seems like nonsense. Truly irrelevant nonsense. But I've had a lot of life experience since then. And when I met the woman who was the pure-as-snow virgin and she chose me, I still thought that meant something. It did a lot to help build my ego. It was a sort of good housekeeping seal of approval. Again, at age 59, that too seems like illusion. All the rabbit holes I got caught in seem nuts to me now. People are people. We all struggle. Whether or not someone happens to be a virgin is really more about them and life life circumstances than about whichever partner they lose it with (or which partner they don't lose it with).


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## Parallax857 (May 15, 2012)

Rob_1 said:


> On an aside point: as a man I can't understand men that knowingly married women that were in homosexual relationships for a big period of their life. Not that it will happen to you (which it most certainly could), but men that marry women that were in prior homosexual relationships have a much higher chances of eventually being dumped for another woman. I understand that being dumped by one's partner can happen at any time, even late in life all of the sudden, but when you know that your prospective partner has been involved for long period of time in just homosexual relationships you are asking for it by getting involved with someone like that.


I initially had that concern. We talked about it. I mean, I was the first man in her life in many years. She had never been deeply emotionally intimate with any man. She had experienced emotional intimacy with her wife but really no one else. There were times she would get upset because I couldn't understand her the way another woman could. Women can sometimes, from my point of view, seem to read each other's minds. As a man, I need it spelled out and that would upset her. I remember saying, "Maybe the truth is you need to be with a woman."

Eventually, through those conversations, I got to a place of trust. She explained that she was never really a lesbian. That even back then, her attraction was entirely toward men. She was just scared of them. She was drawn to women in a different way. She was seeking out the good mom she'd never had. Plus, hiding out from men, as she'd had experiences that scarred her. 

It all made sense and still does. I deeply trust her. Despite being a twice-divorced divorce attorney (and a guy who spent a good part of his life deeply skeptical of marriage as an institution), I feel confident we'll be together until death do us part.


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## Parallax857 (May 15, 2012)

so_sweet said:


> Before this thread, I thought a woman being a virgin meant she had never had sexual intercourse with a man, but after reading posts in this thread, it's opened my eyes to other viewpoints. I'm happy to have learned something new!


I love your openness. Perhaps because it's similar to mine. I didn't always know the importance of being psychologically open but life has taught me. At age 59, I've seen how much richer things are when I'm curious, open minded and, most important of all, approaching people and life with a soft and open heart. Way more satisfying than where I began, which was fairly materialistic and rigid. 

Martin Buber originated the concept of "I and Thou". It was actually way less formal in his native German. More like "Me and you". He distinguished an "I-Thou" relationship from an "I-it" relationship. In the latter, we see the other person as a thing to be manipulated or used for a purpose. In an "I-Thou" relationship, we enter into a kind of communion and, from his point of view, find God in the space that opens between us. 

For Buber this extended not only to close friends and family, but even to the waiter or waitress in a restaurant, a servant or attendant, really to anyone. In fact, even his food. He didn't read while he ate. He tried to enter an "I-Thou" relationship with the strawberry on his plate.


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## so_sweet (10 mo ago)

Parallax857 said:


> I love your openness.


Thanks!


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

It seems like a technicality to me. A woman could have had any number of intimate sexual experiences with many partners and be a very skilled lover, up to and including dildo usage and breaking the hymen, what we would label as promiscuous behaviour. But as long as she hasn't had a man's penis penetrate her, she would still technically be a virgin, and not subject to society's censure.

Sort of like how a man, no matter how many women he's been with or even how many men he's penetrated, might still be considered a virgin to gay men if he hasn't had a man penetrate HIM.

But it sounds like your wife valued her 'virginity,' and felt it was something special that she still had when she got together with you. So that's what you should respect.

Seems sort of like being the first person to finish a marathon while wearing a bunny costume, no matter how many people beat you to the finish line. Important to some, but not really relevant in the grand scheme of things.


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## Parallax857 (May 15, 2012)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> It seems like a technicality to me. A woman could have had any number of intimate sexual experiences with many partners and be a very skilled lover, up to and including dildo usage and breaking the hymen, what we would label as promiscuous behaviour. But as long as she hasn't had a man's penis penetrate her, she would still technically be a virgin, and not subject to society's censure.
> 
> Sort of like how a man, no matter how many women he's been with or even how many men he's penetrated, might still be considered a virgin to gay men if he hasn't had a man penetrate HIM.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure she saw it as something as special and to be preserved. In fact, she told me she wanted to give it to the woman she was married to. Her intent at the time was to be all in. It's just that, in her view, it wasn't ultimately possible. 

I know that her first experience of a sexual encounter that felt complete wasn't with the woman she married but with her first female partner. That's when she felt that sex had opened for her. Because of what she guesses is some early trauma, which she cannot recall, whenever she was with a boy and he touched her or she touched him, she would go into a dissociated state. Fight/flight/freeze (with freeze being where she would go). So the first time we went to third, it was a totally new thing to her. She felt trust and really enjoyed it. 

She told me that, as a girl, her mother stressed the importance of keeping her virginity but, had it not been for the early trauma, she wouldn't have held that value for long. I think the place she found herself in when we met was something she would have identified as "just one of those things". Not intentional. But, as with her prior spouse, she wanted to be all in with me and so was happy to give it away. 

When the time came, it didn't seem particularly eventful. Very different than the other time I'd been with a woman who saw herself as a virgin. That had been 1) painful and 2) extremely meaningful to my partner. This time, it seemed to pass almost like nothing had happened. When I later asked about it, she said that she still carried trauma so she needed to have it not be something huge. 

In our twelve years of marriage, she's been working through whatever that early trauma was. She trusts me but I'm still a man. When we first got together, she had trouble with me walking into the bathroom when she was naked. It would freak her out. That went away, but then we had to work through lots of triggers. If I touched her breasts before she was turned on enough was a big one for a while. Then if I spent too much time with her breasts. She said she'd felt used by a lot of guys when she was younger. She enjoyed anything she invited or initiated. She loved stroking and playing with my penis and testicles. Soon after the first time we had sex, she began to love having me inside her. Still does. 

Everyone's quirky and I've been happy to go at her pace. There have been times it's been challenging. But over time she's opened. Now she gets that, for me, when I touch her breasts I'm not trying to take something from her but give love. Oddly, she doesn't have an issue with my touching her vagina. Perhaps because she didn't really do that with guys when she dated them. It happened once or twice. She didn't even know how many exactly because she was so checked out when it happened. She touched a penis once before we met but it wasn't exactly voluntary. She was afraid the guy would go off on her if she didn't. So I've learned never to place her hand there. I have to be patient and let her get there herself, which she always does. 

When we first began being sexual, she was willing to do anything but would go into a semi-detached state. I didn't like that. Said I'd rather go slow so that we can be emotionally connected. That's what we've done ever since. We're finally at the point where there's not much evidence of early trauma anymore. I still won't take her hand and place it anywhere. But she feels the love when I touch her breasts. We have a great sex life. Very deeply connected. We don't do it that often. If we can manage twice a week, that's great. But the desire is there. Sometimes life gets in the way because we're both so busy. We don't swing from the chandelier but that's fine by me. I've had relationships where I did and, at this point in my life, much prefer deeply connected and intimate sex. Plain vanilla is fine, thank you.


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## Fly With Me (Jul 11, 2021)

I agree with your wife. I enjoy everything else but nothing is quite like being 'filled' by your man. I once heard that women crave to be full and men crave to be empty. It was in an emotional/mental context but makes sense physically as well. 

Do metaphors work for you? It's the main course. Starters and puddings are delicious and sometimes they are all you want. But if you are really hungry only a main course is truly satisfying ;-)


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## Parallax857 (May 15, 2012)

Fly With Me said:


> I agree with your wife. I enjoy everything else but nothing is quite like being 'filled' by your man. I once heard that women crave to be full and men crave to be empty. It was in an emotional/mental context but makes sense physically as well.
> 
> Do metaphors work for you? It's the main course. Starters and puddings are delicious and sometimes they are all you want. But if you are really hungry only a main course is truly satisfying ;-)


Thanks you. Metaphors are helpful for me and yours is. I like that women crave to be full and men crave to be empty line. There's a real exchange, obviously of body fluid, but also energetically and emotionally. I'm perfectly happy to come in a woman's hand, in her mouth or inside. In some ways, inside is the most challenging because of the risk of pregnancy. But you're helping me to get why a woman would prefer her guy to come inside. I see too that it's a special thing, a demonstration of trust and commitment, at least for those who think of it this way (like you and my wife).


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