# You Did It For Other Women, But Not Me?



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I keep thinking we need some views from the other side. Ladies, women, whatever you like to be called, please post your issue(s). 

I'm guessing these won't be about sex, for the most part. That's why I didn't post this in "Sex in Marriage". 

If it ends up going that way to my surprise, a mod can move it as they see fit. 

Once, I was asked why I helped a woman move, but never asked her for something in return. Another time, I was asked why I was part of a crew who put a roof on a woman's house for free. (She was just out of an abusive marriage and the roof was leaking badly. She had no money. Her Dad was my friend.)

I can remember, after a period of time because I'm thick headed, and because I liked helping women, realizing I was being taken advantage of at times for my willingness to help women who gave me the sad story and looks. Tore me up and I would do what I could. Silly me, some did need it and some just used me. 

What I found out was, instead of the woman in my life being proud of me, she got angry because she wanted me to be her dupe and slave, too.  

Damn right, she felt entitled. 

What has been your experience(s)? Do you have similar gripes at times?


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Honestly.....

I really can't think of anything. I mean, we've both talked about life enough that there ARE things I know he had/did/experienced before me. But I've never thought about me getting to check all those boxes too as some love or womanhood measuring stick.

Then again, I try to choose gratitude, contentment, and tend to see the glass half full.

I mean, I guess he used to go to the beach more, which I love, but I'm sure we'll go there too at some point lol. But its not "a thing."

I dont think I think in terms of evening the score and getting "everything she got" the way that particular type of Male does. I am not looking for some kind of "gotcha" proof he doesnt love me enough.

I'm too busy loving him.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

I care very little about the past. There are some extreme exceptions, but petty things I can live without knowing. 

As a woman, it's up to me to know what I need and want from a relationship - not what some other woman got. Once again, it's unnecessary information.

I can buy whatever I want. I can travel wherever I want. 

So, what I'd really like is a strong, healthy marriage. That's my ideal. Obviously, a divorced man hasn't had that, and neither have I, so working on it together would be amazing.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

I don't really want my husband to do things "for" me. And I have no idea what he may have done for others.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I think that your scenario here is different than that in the thread about men being upset because their woman did sexual things with men in the past that the women would not now do sexually with the him. It's about things done before they even met. Your scenario seems to be about things you have done for other women while you were in a relationship.

That said....

I have never compared my relationship with a man to his previous relationships to come up with things to be jealous about. After all he was no longer with her so I guess their relationship was not all that good. Why would I bother worrying about all that?

Now if I'm in a relationship with a man, i would not want him to spend a lot of his time doing things for other women. This is a KISA scenario. It's usually mispalced. Also, I've never been with a man who would be ok with me taking my time to do significant things for other men no matter how needy those men were. So why would I be ok with him doing that for other women?

I would, however, probably be ok with something like you did to help with the roof. I see that more as you helping her father, your friend. That's cool.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> I think that your scenario here is different than that in the thread about men being upset because their woman did sexual things with men in the past that the women would not now do sexually with the him. It's about things done before they even met.* Your scenario seems to be about things you have done for other women while you were in a relationship.
> *
> That said....
> 
> ...


If I gave that impression, I didn't mean to. I was single when I did those things. Ten years later, after smiling and saying hello to some woman I was asked by my relationship partner, "How do you know her"? I was honest. I told her and while seemingly okay at the time with it, within a week, I was being asked to help out her family with things they never asked before. 

It could have been coincidence, but it is unlikely, since I know her well.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

The unfortunate part is, her family had more than enough money to afford to pay someone for the services I rendered for free. They did not offer any money, and I only did it to please my relationship partner. 

I wonder if there are any other men who have gone through a similar experience?


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## Hope Shimmers (Jul 10, 2015)

2ntnuf said:


> If I gave that impression, I didn't mean to. I was single when I did those things. Ten years later, after smiling and saying hello to some woman I was asked by my relationship partner, "How do you know her"? I was honest. I told her and while seemingly okay at the time with it, within a week, I was being asked to help out her family with things they never asked before.
> 
> It could have been coincidence, but it is unlikely, since I know her well.


I'm with EleGirl. This doesn't seem like the 'other side of the story'; it seems like a totally different situation.

If you are dating a woman who has a problem that you helped out another women ten years ago because you felt she needed the help, and your current woman's answer to that is for you to do the same for her, then if I were you I would run.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Hope Shimmers said:


> I'm with EleGirl. This doesn't seem like the 'other side of the story'; it seems like a totally different situation.
> 
> *If you are dating a woman who has a problem that you helped out another women ten years ago because you felt she needed the help, and your current woman's answer to that is for you to do the same for her, then if I were you I would run.*


I don't date. These are previous experiences. They came to mind simply because of the other thread. 

It doesn't seem like a similar scenario to the questions about sex with past partners and a husband wanting you to do the same with him?


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

I'll go sexual on this answer!

Oral sex! He tried it on some of his former women, and didn't like it and has never done it to me. Yet, I LOVE ORAL. Sometimes I tell myself I am going to withhold BJs because it isn't fair, but I find his dong irresistible and I love giving oral as much as I loved receiving it (My XH was great at it and loved it too so this is a hard one for me guys!!!!). Can you tell LOL?!? So I have yet to have been able to withhold, but I can get him off so easy I don't know that he would care if I stopped oral. I just don't get to get him off in all the ways that IIIIII want too! When I teasingly threaten to stop he says, "you love my dong too much" and he is totally right!!!! GRRRRRRRR!!!

As far as the oral, it really pisses me off that he tried it with them but has never tried it with me. I am of the stance that oral is done with me straight out of the shower, scrubbed, shaved, massively clean and fresh. I want the same of him. I have just always wanted to be pristinely clean before any face is in that region. I am guessing when he went down on these few others, any that was not the case, and I don't think it is fair to not even try on me. I know a cooch might not be the tastiest thing after a long date and making out and ending up in bed. That's why I would decline it unless I had just showered, it's just how I am. Maybe the girls he tried it on were not as clean as I am! Now...I know he would do it if I demanded, but I can't ask someone to do something they literally say makes them gag. I wouldn't want him to ask me to do something that makes him gag! Ultimately, I knew all this before commitment and marriage, so I chose this with eyes wide open. My choice, my results.

As far as favors he did for others (women), I love that kind of charity, and that would only make him more appealing to me. If we can help others who need it, I'm all for it. Other than LD/HD issues, he does above and beyond anything I or anyone connected to us needs help with and I am super proud of him for that. He is a wonderful H, SD, SIL etc...I just need some tounge. >


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

So you would like oral, but you arent judging his character or deciding he doesnt love you as much over it.

THAT makes sense.


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## Hope Shimmers (Jul 10, 2015)

personofinterest said:


> So you would like oral, but you arent judging his character or deciding he doesnt love you as much over it.
> 
> THAT makes sense.


Does it?

I don't want to do oral on a guy unless I love him and feel so close to him. But if I do, then I want all of him, every bit I can get. It's not about sex. It's about closeness/intimacy.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I guess I'm just not into scorekeeping and tit for tat. I'll be honest, I find obsessing over stuff like that to be immature, whiny, and manipulative.


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> So you would like oral, but you arent judging his character or deciding he doesnt love you as much over it.
> 
> THAT makes sense.


Not sure if you are agree with me or are being sarcastic! :grin2: 

I actually can understand both ways! 

The people we are in love with are never going to do all the things we want them to do. I know he loves me from the hundreds of other ways he shows and expresses it. It would be very unrealistic to expect that, or decide someone doesn't love me as much becasue he doesn't give out tongue lashings. It's way better for me to focus on all he DOES do instead of fixating on the handful of things he doesn't do. I can only imagine how many things I don't do that he would prefer I did.
@Hope Shimmers - Exactly, all about the intimacy and closeness. I crave that part so much.


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## Hope Shimmers (Jul 10, 2015)

personofinterest said:


> I guess I'm just not into scorekeeping and tit for tat. I'll be honest, I find obsessing over stuff like that to be immature, whiny, and manipulative.


Well, to each his own, but I don't see any whining or manipulative about any of it. Or obsessive, for that matter. I think it's probably natural to question how some people view it compared to others. Not everyone thinks the same way.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Since this thread is somewhat in response to the "she did it with other men" thread, I was referring to the epic whining and scorekeeping THERE.

And yes, when I said that makes sense, I was agreeing and acknowledging your adultness lol


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> I think that your scenario here is different than that in the thread about men being upset because their woman did sexual things with men in the past that the women would not now do sexually with the him. It's about things done before they even met. Your scenario seems to be about things you have done for other women while you were in a relationship.
> 
> That said....
> 
> ...


Which post of mine did you delete and why?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

2ntnuf said:


> Which post of mine did you delete and why?


I did not delete any of your posts. I deleted a post that I made. In that post, I quoted one of your posts and asked you a question. Then I read more of the thread and realized that you already posted something that answered my question. So I deleted my post that quoted you.

Sorry for the confusion.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

I've never thought about what my husband did for who in his past. I only worry about what he does for me now.

I agree the other thread if frightening. Boiling down a woman to a collection of sex acts and not feelings, character, worth.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

I've never found myself jealous because my partner did something for prior women that he doesn't do for me. I guess I just don't think about such things much. We're in a relationship, if we're both meeting one another's needs effectively, then we're all good. 

I have, however, found myself upset because a partner stopped doing things for me that he used to do. Finding out that he used to send his ex-wife flowers once a week but has never done that for me just isn't something that would bother me. I would care that he used to compliment me, hold my hand, talk with me, flirt with me, support me emotionally, but stopped all that once we were married because he just didn't think those things he did for a girlfriend were things he should have to do once he had a wife. I've been in that situation, found myself married to that man. That's upsetting. 

Being a bit different as a partner from one relationship to the next seems fairly normal to me. It's a different relationship, after all. Suddenly being a different partner from the one I was consistently led over the long-term to believe I was getting, however, is a problem.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I have felt jealous about things my ex had done with women in his past, but I did not make it an issue or make comparisons.

Generally, the things I was jealous of were activities they had done together but they were things he just wasn’t into anymore. They were things like going on a diving trip to Hawaii with a group of friends and a girlfriend. That sounded like fun and I would have wanted to do it but he didn’t want to spend money on trips like that anymore. We had plenty of our own different types of trips though. I knew it had nothing to do with him liking a previous girlfriend more than me or anything like that.

Also I was jealous that he had been younger and more healthy (he had injured knees by the time we met and couldn’t handle certain actions anymore).

But none of this made me act toward him like that he owed me anything. Also, the things I was jealous of, I was also happy for him. I was glad he got to experience all of those things. My jealousy was a minor blip in my mind that I worked through and realized was not something that really bothers me. It just grabbed me for a moment but couldn’t settle in to my mind because I wouldn’t let it.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Mrs. Conan is actually jealous of past friendship I have had with women over any sex I had with anyone.

I don't know if she represents women in general in this area but she hasn't seemed at all concerned about sex acts, physical characteristics or number of partners I had before her.

She is intensely sensitive about women I have loved, even if they were friends that I did not have sex with.

One thing that really helped her fall in love with me was my protectiveness and concern for her wellbeing that previous partners didn't display or at least to the levels I expressed.

It is also important to her that I give her good gifts. They don't have to be the most expensive but they do have to be quality and show a good level of thought about her from me.

Love, thoughtfulness, protectiveness and friendship from me are what she values the most and it has broken her heart if she thought I have given more of those qualities to a previous partner than her.


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## mylifeunravelled (May 24, 2018)

These are just my thoughts...if your current partner is taking issue with other women from your past, intimate or otherwise, chances are she is not feeling secure in the relationship that the two of you have together. 

For myself, what happened in the past, is just that. Not something I'd concern myself with in the present, unless...the security of the relationship, the emotional connection, has been jeopardized through emotional distance, dishonesty, unwillingness to be open, etc.

Not saying this is the case for your relationship, but might be worth considering further.


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

2ntnuf, I have experienced something similar to your original post in this thread but not to that extent. I do have a current problem with doing too much for other people according to my W. I do things for my grand kids but they tend to not contact me until they need something fixed. My W gets upset to the point she quit going to see the grand kids and our daughter. 

My W only went to my son's area of the state that is 250 from our house for his wedding but wouldn't go to his house. He has lived there almost 20 years. I go to see him but not as often as he comes to see us. I live in a larger town and he lives in a very rural area and sometimes drives about 100 miles to do major shopping.

When my son was dating his current W, she was in deep debt and her roof leaked in part of her house. I drove 250 miles each way so I could help my son fix her roof. I did roof work before and my son never did. I wanted to show him what to do and not have any problems if I couldn't do the whole roof while I was in his town. I didn't get to finish the roof and he did a small screw up after I left so he called me and I talked him through a fix over the phone.

My W's solution to repairs is "HIRE SOMEONE" to do the work. Well that works if a person can come up with the money but my son's GF at the time was so far in debt and was about to have her car repossessed so there wasn't any money to hire a roof repair crew.

BTW, the GF was up on the roof with us and when she wasn't, she was going for things we needed to fix the roof or making food or bringing us drinks. She had 2 young kids at the time. I didn't feel used. She needed help and my son needed help and my knowledge/skills. I think it helped us to be closer.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

"But none of this made me act toward him like that he owed me anything. Also, the things I was jealous of, I was also happy for him. I was glad he got to experience all of those things. My jealousy was a minor blip in my mind that I worked through and realized was not something that really bothers me. It just grabbed me for a moment but couldn’t settle in to my mind because I wouldn’t let it."

Because you are an adult.


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## Tomara (Jun 19, 2013)

The only thing I cared about was did the ex and other girlfriend help out on the farm or other places. We share the love of the farm together, something the others did not. That is very special to me.

I don’t want to know about the sexual parts. Besides, he’s the one that said I have them all beat lol. 

We both do for other people but we consider as helping those in need. Our good deeds so to speak.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

I treat people how they treat me. I don't care how they were in the past. 

As for tit for tat. Everybody is tit for tat to some degree.

If your always the one reaching out then eventually you quit reaching.

I could see how a woman might be bummed if she really like romantic gestures but accepted that her man loved her and just wasn't romantic.....only to find out he was romantic with previous girl friends.

Or same thing with oral sex or any number of things that are important to you .

Question is what are you going to do about it?

Once you come to the conclusion that someone being romantic,giving oral,etc that really dosen't want to do it isn't really worth it ! 

Nothing worse than an half assed attempt to placate someone its almost insulting.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

anastasia6 said:


> I've never thought about what my husband did for who in his past. I only worry about what he does for me now.
> 
> I agree the other thread if frightening. Boiling down a woman to a collection of sex acts and not feelings, character, worth.


My second wife told me a couple things she did, in general. I wasn't interested in doing them.

Honestly, I never asked for anything. She basically wanted me to just do whatever I wanted. I guess she figured, because I was fairly inexperienced with any kind of wild sex and I was older, I would not want to do any gymnastics or fancy stuff. She was correct in that. That wasn't the only reason, but it's enough for some understanding. 

I've said before, I asked her if she was a party girl and she said she was, but then felt she had to lie to me, and I knew right away. I still married her. It didn't bother me. I now know, it's a bad idea to be that incompatible.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> I have felt jealous about things my ex had done with women in his past, but I did not make it an issue or make comparisons.
> 
> Generally, the things I was jealous of were activities they had done together but they were things he just wasn’t into anymore. They were things like going on a diving trip to Hawaii with a group of friends and a girlfriend. That sounded like fun and I would have wanted to do it but he didn’t want to spend money on trips like that anymore. We had plenty of our own different types of trips though. I knew it had nothing to do with him liking a previous girlfriend more than me or anything like that.
> 
> ...


Dear, and I call you that with the utmost respect, this was a refreshing post filled with honesty and it made me smile. The smile was due to a feeling of empathy for how tough it is to be honest, and how you got right to the issues and seem to understand what I was asking. Thank you for thinking about my op, and know that you earned my respect.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> Mrs. Conan is actually jealous of past friendship I have had with women over any sex I had with anyone.
> 
> I don't know if she represents women in general in this area but she hasn't seemed at all concerned about sex acts, physical characteristics or number of partners I had before her.
> 
> ...


This is also what I meant. Most of the women I've known, maybe all, don't care about past "sexcapades" as much as the emotion they feel I am or a man they care about is seemingly showing about some other woman, even ones from the past who we would not do anything with. The sex isn't so much the issue, is it? It's the emotion. 


Truly, I think the woman who was angry about me helping that woman in the past may have thought I needed to have collected on the work I did for them or it meant I had deeper feelings and would some day go back to her. 


That's a wild guess that I cannot back up. I did get that impression.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

mylifeunravelled said:


> These are just my thoughts...if your current partner is taking issue with other women from your past, intimate or otherwise, chances are she is not feeling secure in the relationship that the two of you have together.
> 
> For myself, what happened in the past, is just that. Not something I'd concern myself with in the present, unless...the security of the relationship, the emotional connection, has been jeopardized through emotional distance, dishonesty, unwillingness to be open, etc.
> 
> Not saying this is the case for your relationship, but might be worth considering further.


No current partners. I don't date. I haven't since my second wife left. It's not that I love her. I fell out of love with her, but it took counseling and years of work. I am terribly frightened from what she put me through that I never imagined would happen. I know the way of the U.S. and am not compatible with it. Sure, there might be someone someday, but I seriously doubt it. I just don't have that desire like I used to have. I see no need for the effort I'd have to put into even a simple date. 

Still, I enjoy learning and understanding myself and the opposite sex in an ongoing effort to get along better with everyone.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

chillymorn69 said:


> I treat people how they treat me. I don't care how they were in the past.
> 
> As for tit for tat. Everybody is tit for tat to some degree.
> 
> ...


You really brought back some thoughts there. I'd forgotten that, but it is absolutely true. I'd rather be told no and just a general why, than be half-assed. It sucks.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

"Dear, and I call you that with the utmost respect, this was a refreshing post filled with honesty and it made me smile. The smile was due to a feeling of empathy for how tough it is to be honest, and how you got right to the issues and seem to understand what I was asking. Thank you for thinking about my op, and know that you earned my respect."

I liked it too. Did you notice she said the jealousy was a blip she CHOSE not to focus on? Perhaps others can learn from that.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> "Dear, and I call you that with the utmost respect, this was a refreshing post filled with honesty and it made me smile. The smile was due to a feeling of empathy for how tough it is to be honest, and how you got right to the issues and seem to understand what I was asking. Thank you for thinking about my op, and know that you earned my respect."
> 
> I liked it too. Did you notice she said the jealousy was a blip she CHOSE not to focus on? Perhaps others can learn from that.


I think another member said it right. When I'm not being shown love and respect, I could fall into that jealousy trap as any other human, man or woman might. It takes some self-awareness to realize what's going on and then have the intestinal fortitude to reason that it's nonsense and let it go.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

And, of course, the sexual act checklist is the measure of respect.

And round we go...


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> And, of course, the sexual act checklist is the measure of respect.
> 
> And round we go...


Who said that?

The sexual act checklist? I never had one.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

2ntnuf said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > And, of course, the sexual act checklist is the measure of respect.
> ...


Apparently most of the internet Male population does lol


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> And, of course, the sexual act checklist is the measure of respect.
> 
> And round we go...





> Nothing worse than an half assed attempt to placate someone its almost insulting.


Oh, did you mean this part I emboldened? It was the part I was commenting about. The rest of it, I had no response for. That's why I just emboldened that part. 

I'll explain. Ever ask someone if they wanted to go see some tear inducing movie with you and they sort of gave their own form of, "oh.... alright". That movie would end up being hell to watch because they weren't giving their best effort to enjoy it with you. 

Yes, it's childish and some adults do it.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> Apparently most of the internet Male population does lol


The trouble is, folks have to be compatible in the area of sex. I take that statement to mean, proper fit, comparable sexual experiences, and an understanding of themselves. A willingness to understand the other person and a vigilance in determining what each may want to try based on enjoyable experiences and a healthy desire for each other, I think will all play into sexual compatibility. I do not want to know who it was with or what exactly was done with whom. Yuk.


In fact, I had a bad experience with someone in a bar that knew my then second wife. It changed how I felt about her because I was not ready for it, and it was the truth. It wasn't her fault. It just happened. I didn't know how I might feel about such things, but I learned that night that it is easier to understand and find empathy for those in whom we can find commonalities.


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

personofinterest said:


> I guess I'm just not into scorekeeping and tit for tat. I'll be honest, I find obsessing over stuff like that to be immature, whiny, and manipulative.


Well, you're only putting it into the "stuff like that" category because you don't value it very highly. Switch it to something that's important to you, and you would be the immature and whiny one :grin2:


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

BioFury said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > I guess I'm just not into scorekeeping and tit for tat. I'll be honest, I find obsessing over stuff like that to be immature, whiny, and manipulative.
> ...


Nope.

Because I know how unattractive and counterproductive it is


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

personofinterest said:


> Nope.
> 
> Because I know how unattractive and counterproductive it is


Right. So if your husband kissed his previous wives, but refused to kiss you, you'd be fine with it.


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

BioFury said:


> Right. So if your husband kissed his previous wives, but refused to kiss you, you'd be fine with it.


Why would someone marry a person who refused to kiss him or her? Who would do that? Wouldn't the fact that s/he didn't want to kiss you be enough? 

I think it just comes down to personalities. While at least on TAM, it looks like men have the biggest issue, it's certainly not all men.

My H and I have known each other a long time. We were friends for a decade before we started dating. In high school, his girlfriend was one of my best friends. Then after college, he and I lived together in a college house with our other friends, he shared a room with his then-girlfriend and I shared a room with my then-boyfriend. I always thought he treated his girlfriends really well. My now H used to hear me have sex with my then boyfriend, yet somehow this has never been a problem in my marriage. He is not the usual TAM poster, apparently. It seems like most men on this website could not handle that. 

Soon after college, I clearly remember him telling with a HUGE smile on his face, that he had met the woman he was going to marry (it wasn't me, LOL!). It was love at first site for him. He was entirely smitten. He did go on to marry her, it was his first wife. I was so happy for him, glad that he'd found his match. I have no doubt that they did things together that we will never do, and that he felt things for his first wife that he will never feel for me. It's A-OK, it's how life is, we change over time. 

Someone said that whether or not someone is jealous or whiny depends on whether their spouse is withholding something of value to them. I think that is part of the equation here. By definition, no one cares about things they don't value. In the statement "You won't do it for me", the 'it' is usually something of value to the person complaining. 

But there is the other part of the complaint, which is what sticks in my (and I'm assuming many women's) craw, which is the "You did it for them!" I just don't see the purpose of that part. 

If your husband or wife won't kiss you now but did before, what has changed within the relationship? What good does it do to compare him or her against what s/he did before you? Look at what has changed while s/he has been WITH you.

If your spouse never would kiss you, why would you marry that person? 

We have the ability to choose our own spouse. Choose someone who hits the critical boxes for you. If they don't, don't marry them. If crazy wild monkey-sex is a critical factor for you, then choose someone who will provide what you need. If they don't, then don't marry them. And if they did but stopped after marriage, then deal with that situation based on the current situation. Keep it in the forefront and in the present. You have [xxx] problem, now. The idea that I should do something for you because I did it in past relationships is weak, IMO.


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

RoseAglow said:


> Why would someone marry a person who refused to kiss him or her? Who would do that? Wouldn't the fact that s/he didn't want to kiss you be enough?
> 
> I think it just comes down to personalities. While at least on TAM, it looks like men have the biggest issue, it's certainly not all men.
> 
> ...


Very interesting story. What caused his first marriage to come apart, if I may ask?

In response to your comments about my post, I have not paid any attention to the men's rendition of this thread. So I am not defending or supporting any statements made therein. Simply because I'm rather ignorant of the contents. With that said, PoF claimed that the men were being immature and whiners for complaining about not receiving various acts of affection from their wives. My response to her, was merely pointing out that her dismissive attitude was a by-product of the value she placed on what the men wanted.

It could be that I misunderstood her, and she was attacking the way in which they brought it up (e.g. you did it for...), and not the complaint itself.


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

BioFury said:


> Very interesting story. What caused his first marriage to come apart, if I may ask?


His first marriage fell apart due to drug addiction and infidelity. It was terrible for him.



> In response to your comments about my post, I have not paid any attention to the men's rendition of this thread. So I am not defending or supporting any statements made therein. Simply because I'm rather ignorant of the contents. With that said, PoF claimed that the men were being immature and whiners for complaining about not receiving various acts of affection from their wives. My response to her, was merely pointing out that *her dismissive attitude was a by-product of the value she placed on what the men wanted.*
> It could be that I misunderstood her, and she was attacking the way in which they brought it up (e.g. you did it for...), and not the complaint itself.


Regarding the bold, I do think that the underlying issue in this discussion and the discussion in the men's section does come down to one of values. It is difficult to find something that is of similar value for women, something that women are only supposed to get from their husbands. For the most part, the questions have been about money or had something to do with money (wedding rings in this thread, big trips, big "allowances" in the other thread) in the attempt to find something equivalent for women. But in 2018 many women have jobs, we can buy our own things. We can go on our own trips. If we wanted to, most women can find new sexual partners (vs relationship partners) pretty easily. 

I can't speak for anyone else, but the insistence on the other thread that "but she did it for me!" means that the woman loved/found the other the guy more attractive is my point of contention, along with the subsequent "If she really love me/found me as attractive she'd do it".


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I thought women would say something like:

Listening to me when we talk.

Only being close friends with me/sharing your emotions/feelings.

Courting me throughout marriage.

Providing me with a feeling of security/safety.

If you did that with other women, you must do it with me. Though, I have a feeling women would just leave, without saying it is a requirement. It is that intensely expected and most men would do that for the one they love. Is that the rub? If he shares verbal intimacies with another woman or any semblance of the above, it's a deal breaker. Men seem to hang on longer in relationships where they don't get their dealbreakers, but it may be they know it's not so easy to find another woman.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

If women would just leave without saying it is a requirement, where is equality in a relationship? Is it all about men not demanding things? Is it all about catering to your wife, and not expecting anything in return? 

I hate to say it, but it sure seems that way. 

I don't think sex can be demanded from a man or a woman, because that's a whole different word, rape. 

However, I think many men tend to believe they are not getting a return worth the value of what they put into a relationship/marriage. Well, at least on this forum, according to what I have read. 

What is the bottom line? Where does the problem lie? Men tend to be babies to an extent, complaining as a child would to their mother. I think it is a somewhat natural progression when in a long term relationship. 

Women, what do you suggest men do to keep from falling into this mommie type relationship with you? If you look back at when you two were dating, he tended to give you whatever he thought would make you happy, I'm guessing, while hoping for a sexual return on his "investment". He also likely had, as you may have, other women he spoke with or occasionally dated without you knowledge. 

I don't think that is a great solution for a long term relationship, but I wonder what a healthier marriage today would look like?

What actions of yours do you see as a return on his investment? 

I'm sorry I'm talking like a businessman. I don't mean to, but that is the sense I am getting from most members, with this topic.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Is the reason men have difficulty in finding another woman because women have so many friends they talk with on a personal level, sharing the intimacies they do not allow men to share with others? 

Is it that those friends then tell their friends and so on until the man is not datable? 

It seems like this would be true.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

BioFury said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > Nope.
> ...


If any man refused to kiss me for any reason, he'd never become my husband.

Sorry, try again.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Oh my lord the lengths "that" kind of man will go to to insist A. They are right or B. Women are big meanies

It's starting to get embarrassing


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

BioFury said:


> Right. So if your husband kissed his previous wives, but refused to kiss you, you'd be fine with it.


If my husband refused to kiss me on a regular basis, it would probably leave him. To me, this is an indication of a serious problem in the relationship. If not addressed, it's over.

It has nothing to do with what he did or did not do with his previous wife. It has to do with what he does in our relationship.

Also, I would not marry a man who refused to kiss. Again it has nothing to do with his previous relationships.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> Oh my lord the lengths "that" kind of man will go to to insist A. They are right or B. Women are big meanies
> 
> It's starting to get embarrassing


In some ways it is actually less embarrassing than being unable to understand what has been written many, many times in plain English. So I am hoping it is the former.


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

personofinterest said:


> If any man refused to kiss me for any reason, he'd never become my husband.
> 
> Sorry, try again.


So your original comments were merely attacking the way in which the men choose to complain about the lack of ABC? Or were you saying they shouldn't be whining about whatever it is they aren't getting period?



EleGirl said:


> If my husband refused to kiss me on a regular basis, it would probably leave him. To me, this is an indication of a serious problem in the relationship. If not addressed, it's over.
> 
> It has nothing to do with what he did or did not do with his previous wife. It has to do with what he does in our relationship.
> 
> Also, I would not marry a man who refused to kiss. Again it has nothing to do with his previous relationships.


I asked PoF to clarify. Her original statements came across as the latter option above. Hence my previous responses.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> I thought women would say something like:
> 
> Listening to me when we talk.
> 
> ...


So for me, I wanted to know that my partner treated his previous partners well. If he was in a committed relationship, I want to know that he did court her, make her feel protected, and listen to her.

When dating and headed towards a relationship with a man, I pay close attention to what he says about previous relationships. Generally, I want to hear him speaking respectfully about her, no matter how things ended. 

After getting past the dating stage, I still listen for clues to prior relationships. Normally a person doesn’t go about talking about how they were with previous partners, but over time you get some clues. 

If I felt he was bad at listening in prior relationships, I’m going to think he probably will be in this one too. If he wasn’t romantic or didn’t court prior partners, chances are he won’t court me either.

Now in the process of learning over time that he did court other partners, listen to them, and had great sex with them, now it’s up to me to be happy about what this means to me and our relationship, but not get tied up in trying to figure out if he did it better for her than me, or if he loved her more, or if she was hotter or smarter or more fun than me. I have to keep my mind out of his previous relationships beyond just knowing he was a decent man who knows how to be a good partner.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

Faithful Wife said:


> So for me, I wanted to know that my partner treated his previous partners well. If he was in a committed relationship, I want to know that he did court her, make her feel protected, and listen to her.
> 
> When dating and headed towards a relationship with a man, I pay close attention to what he says about previous relationships. Generally, I want to hear him speaking respectfully about her, no matter how things ended.
> 
> ...


I love how you tied all that together with one all encompassing thought. It is a thought I very much agree with and apply to my own marriage. High Five!!!!


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

2ntnuf said:


> I thought women would say something like:
> 
> Listening to me when we talk.
> 
> ...


Your bolded statement is correct, at least it is in my experience. Women in general are less likely to compromise/give up/settle with regards to their non negotiable terms/requirements when seeking a long term partner. This is most likely the reason why the "you did it for the other person, why not me" phenomena is not as prevalent with women as it is with men. 

I think both women and men should hold out for partners that meet their dealbreakers to avoid resentment in the long run. 

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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I still say it is telling that this thread is only 6 pages long. And if you read it, the only reason it is this long is because men are posting here accusing us of lying about what we have posted. Most of this thread is men trying to twist our words so they can say that we are just as whiny as they are. It's actually kind of funny except when it really gets on my nerves.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> I still say it is telling that this thread is only 6 pages long. And if you read it, the only reason it is this long is because men are posting here accusing us of lying about what we have posted. Most of this thread is men trying to twist our words so they can say that we are just as whiny as they are. It's actually kind of funny except when it really gets on my nerves.



Both men and women can be whiny. Just maybe about slightly different things. 

Woman: “Why do our neighbours have a bigger house than us with more staff? Waaaaaaa ”

Men: “Why does Alejandro have a bigger **** than me? Waaaaa “

See? Both whiny. 

‘Do others as you would like them do you’ (isn’t it what a superstar once said?).

When it’s your turn to whine about small cocks inside a humongous house or vice versa nobody is going to sympathise 


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Believe it or not, there are quite a few of us on this planet who just… wait for it… don't whine.

And to take that farther, I don't have this feeling that I am intitled to sympathy from strangers. Strangers don't owe me anything.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

I think, in general, most women are not as competitive as most men. I've seen guys turn _yoga_ into a competitive sport. They like to win. And, perhaps even more vitally, they really do not like to lose. 

So I think there's more of a tendency for them to want to be the best _whatever_ their partner has ever had. They want to hear that they're the best lover, the most handsome, the best partner. But, if they find out their partner had a better lover, a more handsome boyfriend, someone she found funnier or cuter or whatever...well, then they're not winning. They might even be losing. And when it comes to sex, they don't ever want to find out that their partner did something with a previous partner that she hasn't or doesn't want to do with them. Because part of winning her is a sort of (mostly, hopefully) subconscious feeling that they own her and everything about her, even her past and her memories. If she gave something to another man she's not giving to him, then he's not winning. He's losing to that other man. And he's losing to her. 

It's a side of ego that most women really don't have in such abundance as men. A woman who is as jealous and territorial as all that, would likely be labeled crazy - a bunny-boiler. 

Women, on the other hand, seem to be more able to focus on the current relationship. We aren't, in general, as threatened by the past. Because we aren't, in general, as focused on needing to _win_ over the past - to make every other woman he's ever known lose. We already know we've won. We have him. If she was really all that and a bag of chips, he would still be with her. Why would we want to try to mimic experiences he had with someone whose relationship with him crashed and burned? 

Now, there may be some mild envy that he had other experiences first or with prior relationships that we maybe won't get to have with him. I'm a bit envious that my SO got to experience living oversees with his first wife. But I'm not jealous about it, I don't resent it, and I'm not going to insist that he takes me to Europe so I can try to win in some way. That was a different part of his life, a different relationship, one that ended badly. I love our life now and I don't feel the need to compete with his memories of her. I'm focused on what I can share with my partner _now_. Maybe we'll try to create new firsts, new experiences, together - and we do. But I, like most of the women I know, just don't focus on conquering, winning, defeating, or in any way claiming or dominating his past. I would rather be the one he's with now, in Georgia instead of France, than the one he had that experience with but now hasn't spoken to in 15 years after a rough breakup and brutal divorce.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I don't see this as a gender issue. I've known some whiny, in titled, score keeping women. I've known some man who were that way. This to me is not a gender issue. This is a personality, maturity, and character issue. We choose what we dwell on. We may not choose what thought flits through our head, but we choose which ones we hold on to and obsess about. That's how simple it really is. If you are that upset about this issue and really don't think your spouse loves you enough, then leave. You don't get to hold what someone did with Bob or Susan 10 years ago as some sort of guilt inducing trump card. And even if you never say it, if you are stewing about it, it is affecting the relationship. So stop it or leave. It's really that simple


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

There was a thread not long ago where quite a few women (same ones who are now anti-sympathy, when it comes to sex) were amazed how little sympathy men receive from their spouses. It’s funny to see that as soon as it is a sexual issue, there’s suddenly a total blind spot with regards to sympathy whereas when it comes to showing your feelings about something, then men can cry and be emotional all they want; apparently those women would welcome it with open arms. 
It’s all to do with projection; both sides are guilty of it but too stubborn to admit it.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

It seems to me that there are a number of men who have insecurity issues that they are not willing or understand how to address in a way that is healthy. At the same time, I think there are also a number of women who don't know how to address these mens insecurities in a healthy way because they have little experience with a man expressing an insecurity in a mature and non accusatory way. Also, you have to allow your partner to be honest without them fearing a backlash for their honesty. Everyone wants you to be honest, until you are.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> I don't see this as a gender issue. I've known some whiny, in titled, score keeping women. I've known some man who were that way. This to me is not a gender issue. This is a personality, maturity, and character issue. We choose what we dwell on. We may not choose what thought flits through our head, but we choose which ones we hold on to and obsess about. That's how simple it really is. If you are that upset about this issue and really don't think your spouse loves you enough, then leave. You don't get to hold what someone did with Bob or Susan 10 years ago as some sort of guilt inducing trump card. And even if you never say it, if you are stewing about it, it is affecting the relationship. So stop it or leave. It's really that simple



Or....the wife could just have a bit more enthusiastic sex a bit more often and then there would be no reason for the guy to wonder whether sex with Bob felt better for wife.
It can also really be that simple too 
Women are not going to concede your position, nor are Kent going to concede your position so why don’t we talk about something else?

Like a bucket list of top 10 sexual things/locations to do/explore with your partner? (Or is that against the rules? Are we only allowed to argue with each other? )


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

PigglyWiggly said:


> It seems to me that there are a number of men who have insecurity issues that they are not willing or understand how to address in a way that is healthy. At the same time, I think there are also a number of women who don't know how to address these mens insecurities in a healthy way because they have little experience with a man expressing an insecurity in a mature and non accusatory way. Also, you have to allow your partner to be honest without them fearing a backlash for their honesty. Everyone wants you to be honest, until you are.




To some women, there’s a world of difference between a man saying:

‘I’m a really authentically insecure and immature person for feeling sexually deprived in my marriage sometimes’

And

‘I wish you would move your lazy ass more often to have more authentic sex with me’

They would prefer a man to first emasculate himself by admitting that he’s needy and that it’s all on him for having those feelings rather than expressing his displeasure that his wife might be, god forbid, somewhat neglectful in that department.

I’m so glad I don’t have to deal with this crap in my marriage.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> There was a thread not long ago where quite a few women (same ones who are now anti-sympathy, when it comes to sex) were amazed how little sympathy men receive from their spouses. It’s funny to see that as soon as it is a sexual issue, there’s suddenly a total blind spot with regards to sympathy whereas when it comes to showing your feelings about something, then men can cry and be emotional all they want; apparently those women would welcome it with open arms.
> It’s all to do with projection; both sides are guilty of it but too stubborn to admit it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 This is extremely simplistic. I understand why you chose to slanted that way, but to imply that women are in pathetic about everything except 6 is ridiculous. I have a lot of empathy for my husband. I had a lot of empathy for my ex husband. Even when he was depriving me sexually. So this isn't about women's lack of capacity for empathy. This is about a dilemma that a man faces in his mind. And he can choose how to deal with that dilemma. He can be lovingly honest with his wife letting go of the out calm. He can choose to stuff his feelings, knowing they are going to come out in one way or another. Or he can whine and stamped his feet and demand through his attitude that his wife comply or it's her fault if hes upset. The 1st solution makes the most sense. Lay it out there without the attitude of entitlement and without the whining. Most wives will respond to a husband who does not choose to put them on the defensive or make them feel like some sort of reformed s***'s. The problem that this subset of men has is that they really don't like women to begin with. It's evident in everything they post. So they are likely incapable of approaching a woman, even their wives, with anything but disdain. We don't like disdain. We don't want to have sex with disdain.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> This is extremely simplistic. I understand why you chose to slanted that way, but to imply that women are in pathetic about everything except 6 is ridiculous. I have a lot of empathy for my husband. I had a lot of empathy for my ex husband. Even when he was depriving me sexually. So this isn't about women's lack of capacity for empathy. This is about a dilemma that a man faces in his mind. And he can choose how to deal with that dilemma. He can be lovingly honest with his wife letting go of the out calm. He can choose to stuff his feelings, knowing they are going to come out in one way or another. Or he can whine and stamped his feet and demand through his attitude that his wife comply or it's her fault if hes upset. The 1st solution makes the most sense. Lay it out there without the attitude of entitlement and without the whining. Most wives will respond to a husband who does not choose to put them on the defensive or make them feel like some sort of reformed s***'s. The problem that this subset of men has is that they really don't like women to begin with. It's evident in everything they post. So they are likely incapable of approaching a woman, even their wives, with anything but disdain. We don't like disdain. We don't want to have sex with disdain.



I don’t doubt you had empathy for your husband and sorry the other one deprived you.

Let me ask you this: do you think a woman who is not that interested in sex with her husband is more, or less likely to show empathy that husband might be deprived sexually? 

Simple question; doesn’t matter if it is not exactly related to the thread. But I think it’s important we first find some basic truths everyone can agree on, before it’s taken further. Otherwise everyone is just chucking out their slogans willy-nillily.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> The 1st solution makes the most sense. Lay it out there without the attitude of entitlement and without the whining. Most wives will respond to a husband who does not choose to put them on the defensive or make them feel like some sort of reformed s***'s. The problem that this subset of men has is that they really don't like women to begin with. It's evident in everything they post. So they are likely incapable of approaching a woman, even their wives, with anything but disdain. We don't like disdain. We don't want to have sex with disdain.



I’m in total agreement with you that stomping feet is not the way to ask for something - I don’t think anyone has argued otherwise?; like I keep saying we are mostly arguing about the form how to express a certain feeling. 

However others go further and insist that the man is generally in the wrong for having certain expectations and feelings within the marriage: his choices are either to accept or leave. That’s what I have a problem with. It’s not so difficult to change how you voice your frustrations. But many women don’t feel any of those frustrations are valid and invalidate the feelings of many men who try to express them (however clumsily). Then they make a MUCH bigger fuss whenever it happens the other way around. 

I am absolutely amazed how little people discuss COMMUNICATION and techniques thereof on a relationship forum. 



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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> So for me, I wanted to know that my partner treated his previous partners well. If he was in a committed relationship, I want to know that he did court her, make her feel protected, and listen to her.
> 
> When dating and headed towards a relationship with a man, I pay close attention to what he says about previous relationships. Generally, I want to hear him speaking respectfully about her, no matter how things ended.
> 
> ...


Quite often, people have their checklist for qualities they look for in a potential partner, as you laid out for yourself. Some are absolute deal breakers, that a relationship won't happen if a certain quality is not there. Others are nice to haves, that it would be great if that quality was there, but if not, no huge deal. I think a lot of people are a lot more flexible with things than they would like to admit, or are even aware. They will often go to great lengths to fit all the pieces into narrative they want.

I am hesitant to use the term "settle" because of its connotation, but I think we all do that to one degree or another since no one is absolutely perfect. As we go through the dating process and learn about our partner, we for a more complete picture of who they are, and that is run through the filter of deal breakers, and nice to haves, but not necessaries. We realize our partners strengths and weaknesses, and move to accept them for who they are.

The problems in this, and the other thread set in when the picture of who the partner seems to be is challenged. When what they are and aren't capable of is challenged.

Ideally, a relationship would not continue when a deal breaker would pop up, but all too often people blow right past those in the new relationship euphoria, only to be bitten by them some time in the future. In the case of the nice to haves though, it's different because those are often seen as things the partner is just not capable of giving or doing, and peace is made with those limitations. After making that peace, if one learns that their partner is not only capable, but enthusiastically gave or did those nice to haves, it calls into question a whole host of things.


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## Middle of Everything (Feb 19, 2012)

Ugh. 

More "women are this" "men are that". 

To me people have already figured it out here. What do you value? Is it enough to separate over?

I think the past gets in the way when people arent honest and wont communicate.

The "but you did it for" becomes the cherry on top of the **** sundae that is x,y, or z.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

> I don’t doubt you had empathy for your husband and sorry the other one deprived you.
> 
> Let me ask you this:* do you think a woman who is not that interested in sex with her husband is more, or less likely to show empathy that husband might be deprived sexually? *
> 
> ...


I think a woman who deprives her husband of sex will be less empathetic because she has already illustrated she is self-centered. Otherwise she wouldn't be depriving her husband.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> I think a woman who deprives her husband of sex will be less empathetic because she has already illustrated she is self-centered. Otherwise she wouldn't be depriving her husband.


Correct answer. I think that the distinction is not so clear to men who read women's replies that you and others simply don't like the whining and I don't think anyone will disagree on that.
Next question then: within a marriage, should there be certain obligations or norms, say, is it reasonable to expect sexual encounters with your partner at certain intervals, say once or twice a week etc? And if this doesn't or rarely materialises, is it reasonable to express dissatisfaction and expect your partner to change or put in more effort? (in a non-whiny way and provided it is your partner, who is not very eager to have sex with you).

You are getting close to completing this exciting adventure quest questionnaire and win the main prize


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> Correct answer. I think that the distinction is not so clear to men who read women's replies that you and others simply don't like the whining and I don't think anyone will disagree on that.
> Next question then: within a marriage, should there be certain obligations or norms, say, is it reasonable to expect sexual encounters with your partner at certain intervals, say once or twice a week etc? And if this doesn't or rarely materialises, is it reasonable to express dissatisfaction and expect your partner to change or put in more effort? (in a non-whiny way and provided it is your partner, who is not very eager to have sex with you).
> 
> You are getting close to completing this exciting adventure quest questionnaire and win the main prize


1. The prize better be chocolate. Or cheesecake. Or chocolate cheesecake

2. I think definitely YES, if a spouse is withholding sex, they should be confronted. Lovingly and patiently the first time or two. Then bluntly. Then with great live-changing seriousness. Then with divorce papers. And honestly, if a woman is depriving her husband of regular sex, then what she did with Bob is probably just a distraction from the poor man's overall unhappiness and constant stress. I know not everyone believes in the Bible, and this is not a prosyletation attempt. However, there's a reason the Bible COMMENDS a married couple not to deprive each other.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. If you do not plan to meet your spouse's most intimate needs regularly, do not marry them.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

samyeagar said:


> Quite often, people have their checklist for qualities they look for in a potential partner, as you laid out for yourself. Some are absolute deal breakers, that a relationship won't happen if a certain quality is not there. Others are nice to haves, that it would be great if that quality was there, but if not, no huge deal. I think a lot of people are a lot more flexible with things than they would like to admit, or are even aware. They will often go to great lengths to fit all the pieces into narrative they want.
> 
> I am hesitant to use the term "settle" because of its connotation, but I think we all do that to one degree or another since no one is absolutely perfect. As we go through the dating process and learn about our partner, we for a more complete picture of who they are, and that is run through the filter of deal breakers, and nice to haves, but not necessaries. We realize our partners strengths and weaknesses, and move to accept them for who they are.
> 
> ...


Agree with all you are saying. However, my post that you quoted was only in response to the OP's musings about what he thought women might be focused on here. Of course, there is no guarantee that any of our spouses will never change, and there is the high probability that we are going to over look some red flags. But the things he mentioned specifically, I addressed those.

There is no foul proof way of screening someone and having them never change in ways you don't like. That is possible for anyone/everyone, male/female. No guarantees in life in anything. However you can do your best to protect your heart and sometimes it works.

I have no regrets on the ways I screened my ex, as noted in the post of mine you quoted. In those particular areas I wrote about, I did well in choosing him and things remained good in those areas throughout our relationship.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

PigglyWiggly said:


> It seems to me that there are a number of men who have insecurity issues that they are not willing or understand how to address in a way that is healthy. At the same time, I think there are also a number of women who don't know how to address these mens insecurities in a healthy way because they have little experience with a man expressing an insecurity in a mature and non accusatory way. Also, you have to allow your partner to be honest without them fearing a backlash for their honesty. Everyone wants you to be honest, until you are.





inmyprime said:


> To some women, there’s a world of difference between a man saying:
> 
> ‘I’m a really authentically insecure and immature person for feeling sexually deprived in my marriage sometimes’
> 
> ...





inmyprime said:


> I’m in total agreement with you that stomping feet is not the way to ask for something - I don’t think anyone has argued otherwise?; like I keep saying we are mostly arguing about the form how to express a certain feeling.
> 
> However others go further and insist that the man is generally in the wrong for having certain expectations and feelings within the marriage: his choices are either to accept or leave. That’s what I have a problem with. It’s not so difficult to change how you voice your frustrations. But many women don’t feel any of those frustrations are valid and invalidate the feelings of many men who try to express them (however clumsily). Then they make a MUCH bigger fuss whenever it happens the other way around.
> 
> ...


You know what is odd to me? And, I might not have quoted all the posts about communication, but we just said on the last page that women do not communicate, but make up their mind that their deal breakers have been met and leave. 

What is wrong with this scenario? Are men supposed to grovel while women act like men? That's how I'm reading all of this. Am I misconstruing what has been posted?

Is there a double standard? Do women want men to come to them, though they go to their friends?


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Any time a thought begins with the words man do or women do The thought is inherently invalid because men and women are not a hive mind. I begged and pleaded and talk and asked for counseling and bought books and twisted myself verbal I in emotional I6 ways from Sunday before I finally divorced. My ex husband knew exactly what I needed and why I wasn't happy. He just flat didn't care. So let's educate ourselves and not be reduced to this hive mind all women and all men krapp.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> You know what is odd to me? And, I might not have quoted all the posts about communication, but we just said on the last page that women do not communicate, but make up their mind that their deal breakers have been met and leave.
> 
> What is wrong with this scenario? Are men supposed to grovel while women act like men? That's how I'm reading all of this. Am I misconstruing what has been posted?
> 
> Is there a double standard? Do women want men to come to them, though they go to their friends?


I'm not sure what your question is. I think you are saying that women see red flags in a man will leave him early on, but instead she should explain to him that he exhibits these red flags and ask him to change?

And no, a man is not supposed to grovel if a woman breaks up with him. He should move on gracefully.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> I'm not sure what your question is. I think you are saying that women see red flags in a man will leave him early on, but instead she should explain to him that he exhibits these red flags and ask him to change?
> 
> And no, a man is not supposed to grovel if a woman breaks up with him. He should move on gracefully.


No, I was saying that women were telling men they should talk when they are upset about something that is a deal breaker, but in the page before, women agreed they don't talk and just leave.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> Any time a thought begins with the words man do or women do The thought is inherently invalid because men and women are not a hive mind. I begged and pleaded and talk and asked for counseling and bought books and twisted myself verbal I in emotional I6 ways from Sunday before I finally divorced. My ex husband knew exactly what I needed and why I wasn't happy. He just flat didn't care. So let's educate ourselves and not be reduced to this hive mind all women and all men krapp.


I get it. I said women and meant women in this thread agreed or posted, but you took it as me saying ALL WOMEN. Sorry, but you have misunderstood my post.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> No, I was saying that women were telling men they should talk when they are upset about something that is a deal breaker, but in the page before, women agreed they don't talk and just leave.


Once in a relationship, if new information arises that is a deal breaker, then I think any partner male or female should discuss the deal breaker.

But when not going forward in a relationship because you already see the deal breaker, I don't think any discussion is necessary. If the person you don't want to continue in a relationship with has red flags and deal breakers, they aren't likely going to peacefully discuss with you how they aren't right for you. You can try to discuss it with them if you want, but sometimes that is just asking for them to be defensive and start a fight.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

"No, I was saying that women were telling men they should talk when they are upset about something that is a deal breaker, but in the page before, women agreed they don't talk and just leave."

I didn't agree to that anywhere, and I don't see where any woman says that period this is perhaps why people get the impression you don't like women. Because you are painting us all with this broad and highly inaccurate brush.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I may have missed a distinction. I do think women 10 to just leave when they are dating. I think most people to in to just leave when they are dating. After all, if I am just dating and I'm not married to someone, why should we have a big long discussion about all of our red flags and how people should change? But if you are married, then yes, you owe your partner some discussion and talking before you just up and leave without telling them the reason why.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Once in a relationship, if new information arises that is a deal breaker, then I think any partner male or female should discuss the deal breaker.
> 
> But when not going forward in a relationship because you already see the deal breaker, I don't think any discussion is necessary. If the person you don't want to continue in a relationship with has red flags and deal breakers, they aren't likely going to peacefully discuss with you how they aren't right for you. You can try to discuss it with them if you want, but sometimes that is just asking for them to be defensive and start a fight.


Oh, I agree. I was actually talking about those who are married. I guess I took what was posted to mean, there is no talk, just realization and departure.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> Oh, I agree. I was actually talking about those who are married. I guess I took what was posted to mean, there is not talk, just realization and departure.


Oh well in that case, I disagree that women don't talk about it. Most women I know and most here at TAM talk a lot about the issues they are seeing, and ask for counseling, etc. Many also give an ultimatum about the deal breaker, before they pull the plug, giving the husband a chance to change if he wants to stay married.

In both of my marriages, I talked about the problems and tried to get my husband to work with me for years before finally leaving. It was in no way a spontaneous decision, and I don't know any woman who hasn't talked and tried all she can to fix things before leaving a marriage.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I may have posted before, even in this thread, that I am not dating and do not plan to date. This thread was not created for me to learn about women so I can date. It is educational for all. 

I have not had the experience of talking with either wife about things that were bothering us. Yes, we talked, but it was more like venting. There were never any possible solutions suggested, other than things must change. 

When I suggested how to change things, my ideas were met with disdain. The solutions were always that I had to do something. My suggestions were that we do something. I felt that was pretty close to the other thread like this one, except this is not about sex. In fact, it couldn't be about sex, since as others have said here in this thread, they don't have much issue with finding another man. 

I think men tend to hold on because, as I believe is represented in this thread, it's a hell of a lot of work to find a woman and keep the relationship going. It's tough starting over, and there are less options as everyone gets older. 

I got what I expected from the responses and I thank you all for being open and honest.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> 1. The prize better be chocolate. Or cheesecake. Or chocolate cheesecake
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well done  
Yes, whoever wrote that bit in the bible was a super cool dude 

Where about a shall I send this monstrosity to? 












Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> 1. The prize better be chocolate. Or cheesecake. Or chocolate cheesecake
> 
> 2. I think definitely YES, if a spouse is withholding sex, they should be confronted. Lovingly and patiently the first time or two. Then bluntly. Then with great live-changing seriousness. Then with divorce papers. And honestly, if a woman is depriving her husband of regular sex, then what she did with Bob is probably just a distraction from the poor man's overall unhappiness and constant stress. I know not everyone believes in the Bible, and this is not a prosyletation attempt. However, there's a reason the Bible COMMENDS a married couple not to deprive each other.
> 
> I've said it before and I'll say it again. If you do not plan to meet your spouse's most intimate needs regularly, do not marry them.


I did lose attraction for my second wife. She lied to me about her past, when I was considering marrying her. I know myself. I know a woman who has been with many men, for some odd reason, really and truly grosses me out badly and I don't want to touch her. Now, if she would have been honest, we could have split before we got married. 

However, she lied all the time and they got bigger. We were having a great sex life before I knew the truth about her. We had fun. Then, she had to move her daughter in. Well, I told her I would not be as free with sex as I was before. I guess she took that as a threat, but it wasn't. Again, I can't feel free to be open and really enjoy myself when the walls are paper thin and her 19 years old daughter was in the next room. We never knew when she would come home and were "caught" a few times. 

Can you imagine how I felt being in my forties and not having a say in how I live? Yes, I should have left, but more importantly, I should have put her stuff in the yard and changed the locks. 

Had she listened to me, much of this wouldn't have happened, but like in this thread, folks think I want information to date, or I am addressing all women when I am not. Yes, that was the reason for much of the issues in my marriage. Communication meant little, since..... "oh, he doesn't meant that", or, "no man is like that", or who knows what. 

Unfortunately, there has been a pattern here in many threads and in real life. This thread seems to support that. I wish it, or you women, did not seem to support my premises.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

It sounds like your wife was dishonest, uncaring, dismissive, and selfish. I'm sorry you had to go through years of that. I know what it feels like to be dismissed by the person who is supposed to love you. 😞


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> Had she listened to me, much of this wouldn't have happened, but like in this thread, *folks think I want information to date, or I am addressing all women when I am not*. Yes, that was the reason for much of the issues in my marriage. Communication meant little, since..... "oh, he doesn't meant that", or, "no man is like that", or who knows what.
> 
> *Unfortunately, there has been a pattern here in many threads and in real life. This thread seems to support that. I wish it, or you women, did not seem to support my premises.*



I think people are a bit confused by what you've been truly asking for in much of this thread. Because you seem here to be insisting that people think you're addressing all women when you're not. But then you turn right around and say that "you women" seem to have a pattern of not being able to clearly communicate. So, it seems as if you are addressing women with your complaints that women can't properly communicate - and at the same time insisting that that is not what you're doing.

You started this thread as a corollary to the similarly titled one in another section of the forums. And yet, you've said you didn't hear what you were expecting to. But at the same time, this thread has somehow proven to you that whatever it is you seem to wish wasn't valid, is true.

You posed the question "you did it for other women, but not me?" as the topic, which would seem to reference making comparisons between a current relationship and prior ones. And yet, by page 4, your posts seem to refer to situations where the man is doing things for other women during the current relationship. So were you wanting to discuss comparisons between relationships, or was this actually about inappropriate behavior with other women while already in a relationship? 

Honestly, it rather feels like you started this thread with some sort of agenda. And, gotcha!, all us women have proven you right! The problem is that it's not really all that clear exactly what 'us women' have proven to you. Because it's not clear what you wanted to begin with, and the goal posts have seemed to keep moving as the thread has progressed. It's just all a bit perplexing...


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

What I see in these topics, is that there are many, many marriages where both people have settled. He settled for someone who isn't passionate about _him_ and won't engage in sex acts she did with others. She settled for a good provider (or other key trait) who doesn't inspire passion. Obviously, this isn't always the case in these situations (e.g., she really does not like a particular thing, having tried it), but it seems to be fairly common. Perhaps this is a compromise most people have to make since there are few ideally matched couples, and finding such a great partner requires a great deal of luck and the ability to move on when things aren't close to your ideal. Better to get much of what you want, than the pot luck of continuing to date in hope of finding it?

Those who have mutual passion and a good amount of compatibility will probably be quite happy with their partner and the relationship, even with some modest compromises. The rest will keep trying to change their situation or their spouse to get what they want, and fail. Most will stay in this unhappy situation, even then.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> You know what is odd to me? And, I might not have quoted all the posts about communication, but _we just said on the last page that women do not communicate_, but make up their mind that their deal breakers have been met and leave.


I did not see the italicized, I would have disagreed there. I do NOT think this is that common. I think, to the degree one can generalize, women communicate in every way that they can, and are disregarded. Every time I see a post about someone's wife minor issue or silly thing, I wonder what SHE thinks about that issue. The walkaway wife syndrome that people oft mention is not really about the wife simply walking away but concluding she is done after many attempts to communicate. The baffled husband looks at her in consternation with something like I did not know it was "that bad". What the hell do you think I was saying?? It has come to this with my husband and I before (well no all the way to this). I have had to grab him by the figurative lapel and shake him with ARE YOU HEARING ME!!??!!!?? I get drool and derp until his brain kicks into gear and goes oh yea, you have been saying that for a while now. There are men who will not hear until the "bad enough" involves her already being gone and completely checked out.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

NobodySpecial said:


> I did not see the italicized, I would have disagreed there. I do NOT think this is that common. I think, to the degree one can generalize, women communicate in every way that they can, and are disregarded. Every time I see a post about someone's wife minor issue or silly thing, I wonder what SHE thinks about that issue. The walkaway wife syndrome that people oft mention is not really about the wife simply walking away but concluding she is done after many attempts to communicate. The baffled husband looks at her in consternation with something like I did not know it was "that bad". What the hell do you think I was saying?? It has come to this with my husband and I before (well no all the way to this). I have had to grab him by the figurative lapel and shake him with ARE YOU HEARING ME!!??!!!?? I get drool and derp until his brain kicks into gear and goes oh yea, you have been saying that for a while now. There are men who will not hear until the "bad enough" involves her already being gone and completely checked out.


Quoting for truth. This is what the "Walk Away Wife Syndrome" is.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

NobodySpecial said:


> I did not see the italicized, I would have disagreed there. I do NOT think this is that common. I think, to the degree one can generalize, women communicate in every way that they can, and are disregarded. Every time I see a post about someone's wife minor issue or silly thing, I wonder what SHE thinks about that issue. The walkaway wife syndrome that people oft mention is not really about the wife simply walking away but concluding she is done after many attempts to communicate. The baffled husband looks at her in consternation with something like I did not know it was "that bad". What the hell do you think I was saying?? It has come to this with my husband and I before (well no all the way to this). I have had to grab him by the figurative lapel and shake him with ARE YOU HEARING ME!!??!!!?? I get drool and derp until his brain kicks into gear and goes oh yea, you have been saying that for a while now. There are men who will not hear until the "bad enough" involves her already being gone and completely checked out.


Men as a group tend to be somewhat deficient in their communication skills compared to most women. We think that communication is mostly verbal (assuming we actually are actively listening and not just talking to try to talk to just express our view point) but it's not. Women communicate with non-verbals, such as their actions, all the time and those are often a clearer indicator of their intentions. I can't imagine being a woman trying to communicate with a man that just doesn't get it. It would drive me insane. 

Back to the original topic. I've never had a woman complain about me doing something for one and not another, other than not agreeing to be in a committed relationship with them. I am not really an acts of service person and if I do something to help a woman out I always tell them upfront it comes with a cost (e.g. cook me a nice dinner) because in my mind dating is supposed to be fun and not doing chores. The activities that I do are also so varied that there isn't a pattern that leaves them feeling left out.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Bananapeel said:


> Men as a group tend to be somewhat deficient in their communication skills compared to most women. We think that communication is mostly verbal (assuming we actually are actively listening and not just talking to try to talk to just express our view point) but it's not. Women communicate with non-verbals, such as their actions, all the time and those are often a clearer indicator of their intentions. I can't imagine being a woman trying to communicate with a man that just doesn't get it. It would drive me insane.
> 
> Back to the original topic. I've never had a woman complain about me doing something for one and not another, other than not agreeing to be in a committed relationship with them. I am not really an acts of service person and if I do something to help a woman out I always tell them upfront it comes with a cost (e.g. cook me a nice dinner) because in my mind dating is supposed to be fun and not doing chores. The activities that I do are also so varied that there isn't a pattern that leaves them feeling left out.


... I tell them it comes with a cost
... because dating is supposed to be fun and not doing chores

????

It sounds like you're just creating mutually reciprocating chores. I suppose it's good to acknowledge that "this isn't fun for me so I expect something in return" but that sound a lot like I'll do a chore for you if you do a chore for me. sounds like the opposite of fun.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Bananapeel said:


> Men as a group tend to be somewhat deficient in their communication skills compared to most women. We think that communication is mostly verbal (assuming we actually are actively listening and not just talking to try to talk to just express our view point) but it's not. Women communicate with non-verbals, such as their actions, all the time and those are often a clearer indicator of their intentions. I can't imagine being a woman trying to communicate with a man that just doesn't get it. It would drive me insane.


I can't agree with that either. For many men, I definitely agree that speaking, not listening, is what "communication" means. In the workplace, this often takes the form of speak, get or do not get the desired outcome and when the desired outcome is not achieved, redress. In relationships, they fail to "see" the consequences of their failure to LISTEN often until it is too late. Even the things that might be internalized as consequences like decreased interest in intimacy (and I mean intimacy, not just sex) are missed as having some other weird root that is not connected to the things she has been saying all along. 

This is not true in my marriage mostly because I don't let it be. But also my husband can open up his mind and hear and think, oh wait we have been here before. I know this pattern. This is the pattern that happens when my wife is trying to tell me something, and I am ignoring it.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> ... I tell them it comes with a cost
> ... because dating is supposed to be fun and not doing chores
> 
> ????
> ...


In general I don't do chores for women because that's not how I view dating. If they want to spend time with me it is going to be doing something fun and relaxing. Although in the interest of 100% disclosure I did date a woman all of last year that I took care of a few things on her house for her, but I didn't tell her about it because I didn't want doing chores to be part of our dating dynamic. I'm the whisk her away for a fun filled romantic evening type not the sit at home and do chores type, so I do what I can to discourage chores.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Bananapeel said:


> In general I don't do chores for women because that's not how I view dating. If they want to spend time with me it is going to be doing something fun and relaxing. Although in the interest of 100% disclosure I did date a woman all of last year that I took care of a few things on her house for her, but I didn't tell her about it because I didn't want doing chores to be part of our dating dynamic. I'm the whisk her away for a fun filled romantic evening type not the sit at home and do chores type, so I do what I can to discourage chores.


That all makes perfect sense. It just doesn't seem to jive with your previous comment. I'm sure it all makes sense, and I'm just not making the right connection.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

I probably didn't explain it correctly. All's good though.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Bananapeel said:


> I probably didn't explain it correctly. All's good though.


I got what you were saying. But acts of service is always the lowest when I take that LL test lol. If I need my sink fixed, I'll YouTube it or call a plumber. I mean, it's nice that hubby knows how to fix things, but my motor is revved by his touch and words and time....not his caulking skills.

I also respect the above post. You actually conceded that you might not have been clear. This thread and its endless brother wouldnt be near as annoying if people could just admit that MAYBE their thinking is off.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

personofinterest said:


> I got what you were saying. But acts of service is always the lowest when I take that LL test lol. If I need my sink fixed, I'll YouTube it or call a plumber. I mean, it's nice that hubby knows how to fix things, but my motor is revved by his touch and words and time....not *his caulking skills.*
> 
> I also respect the above post. You actually conceded that you might not have been clear. This thread and its endless brother wouldnt be near as annoying if people could just admit that MAYBE their thinking is off.


hmmm... sounds like a Freudian slip right there. :grin2:


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Hahaha! I spit my tea


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

I asked my wife about this. Times where she may have felt "you did it for her, but not for me", and she actually came up with a very good example.

In my previous marriage to a woman who is diagnosed NPD, I drove two hour each way to and from work because my ex wife didn't want to leave the town we lived in. When my current wife and I got married, we moved to the town I work in, transplanting her two hours from her friends and family

For easily the first six months in the new town, she felt resentful towards me, even though she knew intellectually it was the right choice to move. In fact, there was a part of her that wanted us to move because she thought it was way over the top to expect me to continue that kind of commute.

That still didn't make her resentment go away that I would put myself through that, and go to that effort just to keep someone who was as nasty and ungrateful as they come happy, yet make someone who loves me, is nice to me, is supportive and not demanding, move away from their whole life just to be with me. Why should she have to make that sacrifice for me, when I had made that sacrifice for my mean, nasty, abusive, ungrateful, demanding ex-wife?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

samyeagar said:


> I asked my wife about this. Times where she may have felt "you did it for her, but not for me", and she actually came up with a very good example.
> 
> In my previous marriage to a woman who is diagnosed NPD, I drove two hour each way to and from work because my ex wife didn't want to leave the town we lived in. When my current wife and I got married, we moved to the town I work in, transplanting her two hours from her friends and family
> 
> ...


Right but I'm sure since she had done things (some sexual, some not) for mean, nasty, ungrateful, demanding and abusive men in her past, she had to learn to suck up her resentment and realize we can't undo what we did in the past, and we all make bad decisions sometimes.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Right but I'm sure since she had done things (some sexual, some not) for mean, nasty, ungrateful, demanding and abusive men in her past, she had to learn to suck up her resentment and realize we can't undo what we did in the past, and we all make bad decisions sometimes.


Perhaps she did consider that. I would never throw that in her face though. I did listen and validate her feelings because even though I didn't see it that way, and I knew it wasn't the case, I can see how she could.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

samyeagar said:


> Perhaps she did consider that. I would never throw that in her face though. I did listen and validate her feelings because even though I didn't see it that way, and I knew it wasn't the case, I can see how she could.


It seems like since you had to ask her about it, she never said anything about it to you at the time?


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> It seems like since you had to ask her about it, she never said anything about it to you at the time?


She said something about it at the time. I just forgot about it being an issue.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

samyeagar said:


> She said something about it at the time. I just forgot about it being an issue.


What I'm getting at is that it must not have been some big, huge issue. Just because it was an issue and she mentioned it, doesn't surprise anyone I don't think. If she made it out to be nuclear level alert over the issue, it would seem to be more like a comparison.

Certainly not to the level of some of the men in the other thread who are saying it "means" a certain thing if she did with with Bob and not him and who are apparently spending hours of their lives fretting over literally hypothetical situations that have not even happened to them.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Rowan said:


> I think people are a bit confused by what you've been truly asking for in much of this thread. Because you seem here to be insisting that people think you're addressing all women when you're not. But then you turn right around and say that "you women" seem to have a pattern of not being able to clearly communicate. So, it seems as if you are addressing women with your complaints that women can't properly communicate - and at the same time insisting that that is not what you're doing.


Well, I don't post thinking I am talking to the world. In most cases, I am talking to the person I have quoted, though I have at times used a post to show where I got my idea. In any case, I don't talk to the world, I'm not that arrogant. I talk to you and if the world sees it, I can't help that. 

So, "you women", meant you, and any other women In This Thread, who fit my description. 

Why is it you feel so defensive? 



Rowan said:


> You started this thread as a corollary to the similarly titled one in another section of the forums. And yet, you've said you didn't hear what you were expecting to. But at the same time, this thread has somehow proven to you that whatever it is you seem to wish wasn't valid, is true.


Is it possible that both of those can be true? Yes, sometimes, without realizing what is going on in the thread, another answer is had or there is a kind of deciphering that happens and things work out anyway. It's rare on TAM to ask a question and not get several thoughts, that weren't enumerated, answered. 



Rowan said:


> You posed the question "you did it for other women, but not me?" as the topic, which would seem to reference making comparisons between a current relationship and prior ones. And yet, by page 4, your posts seem to refer to situations where the man is doing things for other women during the current relationship. So were you wanting to discuss comparisons between relationships, or was this actually about inappropriate behavior with other women while already in a relationship?


Well, not really.... the title is the title. I had a tough time with the op, but as we progressed, we found a way to answer what the op was all about. I think there is a post of mine that talks about how many women seem not to want sex, but other things, in return for their hard work, yet, they don't realize that marriage can be similar to dating where some, though it really seems like many men will do things and hope, sometimes beyond hope, that he will get a little. 

So, going from there, we ended up realizing that was true, and also that women aren't so concerned with getting sex because thye know thye can get it reasonably easily or something similar, as some member put it. 

Then, we realized that the women of this thread didn't like that and started saying I was talking about all women when I should not be. I never said all women, but I did say the women of this thread. Though, you can make anything you want of it, truly. If you are so afraid then you can all blame me, though I don't know what sin that would be, when it was not intentional and no malice or forethought was involved. I just posted what I was reading. You women(of this thread) are the ones who got all bent out of shape and you still are. 

One by one you are rejecting me, in order to tell others you are with them and not with me. Meaning, you don't agree with me in the least. That's okay. I know what happened. 



Rowan said:


> Honestly, it rather feels like you started this thread with some sort of agenda. And, gotcha!, all us women have proven you right! The problem is that it's not really all that clear exactly what 'us women' have proven to you. Because it's not clear what you wanted to begin with, and the goal posts have seemed to keep moving as the thread has progressed. It's just all a bit perplexing...


I did and I don't know anyone who starts a thread without an agenda of some sort. Some folks want to get approval to cheat. Some want to know they are making the right decision by attempting reconciliation. Some folks come here to talk about dates they had and what might have gone wrong. Everyone who starts a thread or post, has an agenda. Some want to make a silly comment and make folks smile or laugh. Some folks want to know something, but are afraid to ask and talk honestly, the way I have here. 

Everyone is different. 

Mine was to figure out what it is most women seem to complain about not getting that is like men complaining about not getting sex. I think I've figured that out. It has to do with catering to your needs, as you see them, or you are gone with little or no notice. That all depends on whether you really want to work things out or not, which has something to do if someone else wants you or is in your life. Sure, there are other reason, too. There isn't just one answer. Life is complicated. Humans are complicated.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

samyeagar said:


> I asked my wife about this. Times where she may have felt "you did it for her, but not for me", and she actually came up with a very good example.
> 
> In my previous marriage to a woman who is diagnosed NPD, I drove two hour each way to and from work because my ex wife didn't want to leave the town we lived in. When my current wife and I got married, we moved to the town I work in, transplanting her two hours from her friends and family
> 
> ...


Not to be insensitive....but I'm not sure that really means anything except that your wife was/is irrationally resentful.

See, just because a feeling exists doesnt mean its rational or NOT selfish.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

So......since "we" women didnt yo in the expected direction, "we" women are of the bad, selfish sort who di not communicate and expect to be catered to....

Okay, dude, if you say so.

I think I'll stick with what I know about myself, what the people who actually KNOW me feel, and not the indictment of some stranger with an agenda and an admitted slant against women.

It was fun. Peace out


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Married but Happy said:


> What I see in these topics, is that there are many, many marriages where both people have settled. He settled for someone who isn't passionate about _him_ and won't engage in sex acts she did with others. She settled for a good provider (or other key trait) who doesn't inspire passion. Obviously, this isn't always the case in these situations (e.g., she really does not like a particular thing, having tried it), but it seems to be fairly common. Perhaps this is a compromise most people have to make since there are few ideally matched couples, and finding such a great partner requires a great deal of luck and the ability to move on when things aren't close to your ideal. Better to get much of what you want, than the pot luck of continuing to date in hope of finding it?
> 
> Those who have mutual passion and a good amount of compatibility will probably be quite happy with their partner and the relationship, even with some modest compromises. The rest will keep trying to change their situation or their spouse to get what they want, and fail. Most will stay in this unhappy situation, even then.


I tend to agree. I think the key is knowing yourself. Most think they can handle "whatever", and can't. I guess there is a fear of being alone or something.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> I did not see the italicized, I would have disagreed there. I do NOT think this is that common. I think, to the degree one can generalize, women communicate in every way that they can, and are disregarded. Every time I see a post about someone's wife minor issue or silly thing, I wonder what SHE thinks about that issue. The walkaway wife syndrome that people oft mention is not really about the wife simply walking away but concluding she is done after many attempts to communicate. The baffled husband looks at her in consternation with something like I did not know it was "that bad". What the hell do you think I was saying?? It has come to this with my husband and I before (well no all the way to this). I have had to grab him by the figurative lapel and shake him with ARE YOU HEARING ME!!??!!!?? I get drool and derp until his brain kicks into gear and goes oh yea, you have been saying that for a while now. There are men who will not hear until the "bad enough" involves her already being gone and completely checked out.


Men and women tend to read text and describe things differently when in defense of what thye think is offensive. General and fairly accurate? I think so.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Bananapeel said:


> Men as a group tend to be somewhat deficient in their communication skills compared to most women. We think that communication is mostly verbal (assuming we actually are actively listening and not just talking to try to talk to just express our view point) but it's not. Women communicate with non-verbals, such as their actions, all the time and those are often a clearer indicator of their intentions. I can't imagine being a woman trying to communicate with a man that just doesn't get it. It would drive me insane.
> 
> Back to the original topic. I've never had a woman complain about me doing something for one and not another, other than not agreeing to be in a committed relationship with them. I am not really an acts of service person and if I do something to help a woman out I always tell them upfront it comes with a cost (e.g. cook me a nice dinner) because in my mind dating is supposed to be fun and not doing chores. The activities that I do are also so varied that there isn't a pattern that leaves them feeling left out.


Women communicate in a different language than men. That's why we don't understand each other. That's a general and true statement.

Women in this thread have assumed so very much, simply by me using the word, "women". 

Now, women in this thread are telling me that I am, was and always will be wrong because "men". So, women in this thread are generalizing in an effort to get my goat. 

This IS how women communicate. If you don't know what they have been doing on the last few pages, it YOU who doesn't speak their language and is constantly being used and abused by them.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Actually my wife very frequently tells me (often in an accusatory manner) something I do or did for others but not for her (it’s more often than not something I do for my family, that in her eyes I wouldn’t do for her, with the same engagement or enthusiasm, given identical situations).

It’s obviously nothing sexual since we both lost virginity to each other. It’s pretty clear that this stems from insecurity. And she admits it afterwards. I try to avoid her feeling this way by basically being as devoted to her as I can but there will still be something she may or may not complain about once in a while.

The feeling never lasted long and the issue is usually resolved quickly. In the past, those things could easily have had an affect on our sex life (she would not make herself as sexually available over something like this - again, it’s something she admitted as well but said that it was a very childish thing to do on her part. We were 16 when we met so lots of rookie mistakes...).

It must be very tempting not to exercise that power: to use sex as a training/conditioning mechanism...I wonder if there is an equivalent power men can use, apart from sulking (which is equally childish).


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

2ntnuf said:


> Women communicate in a different language than men.



Shouldn’t be the case, unless those men and women are from two different countries with different languages...



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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I can't say I agree or disagree, because you haven't said anything relating to what I've posted. 




NobodySpecial said:


> I did not see the italicized, I would have disagreed there. I do NOT think this is that common. I think, to the degree one can generalize, women communicate in every way that they can, and are disregarded. Every time I see a post about someone's wife minor issue or silly thing, I wonder what SHE thinks about that issue. The walkaway wife syndrome that people oft mention is not really about the wife simply walking away but concluding she is done after many attempts to communicate. The baffled husband looks at her in consternation with something like I did not know it was "that bad". What the hell do you think I was saying?? It has come to this with my husband and I before (well no all the way to this). I have had to grab him by the figurative lapel and shake him with ARE YOU HEARING ME!!??!!!?? I get drool and derp until his brain kicks into gear and goes oh yea, you have been saying that for a while now. There are men who will not hear until the "bad enough" involves her already being gone and completely checked out.





NobodySpecial said:


> I can't agree with that either. For many men, I definitely agree that speaking, not listening, is what "communication" means. In the workplace, this often takes the form of speak, get or do not get the desired outcome and when the desired outcome is not achieved, redress. In relationships, they fail to "see" the consequences of their failure to LISTEN often until it is too late. Even the things that might be internalized as consequences like decreased interest in intimacy (and I mean intimacy, not just sex) are missed as having some other weird root that is not connected to the things she has been saying all along.
> 
> This is not true in my marriage mostly because I don't let it be. But also my husband can open up his mind and hear and think, oh wait we have been here before. I know this pattern. This is the pattern that happens when my wife is trying to tell me something, and I am ignoring it.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Shouldn’t be the case, unless those men and women are from two different countries with different languages...
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What was the point of this?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

2ntnuf said:


> What was the point of this?



Humour?
Laughter is the best medicine etc.. 

It’s quicker to make a joke than to correct a sweeping generalisation 


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Whoa. Lets chill out. Really no need to go ballistic. Not worth it!


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Whoa. Lets chill out. Really no need to go ballistic. Not worth it!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Are you talking to me or are you standing up for the women who piled on me?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

2ntnuf said:


> the women who piled on me?



Lucky you 
I wish I had a pile of women on me



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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Lucky you
> I wish I had a pile of women on me
> 
> 
> ...


I can appreciate the levity. Your timing is just a little off, though.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> What I'm getting at is that it must not have been some big, huge issue. Just because it was an issue and she mentioned it, doesn't surprise anyone I don't think. If she made it out to be nuclear level alert over the issue, it would seem to be more like a comparison.
> 
> Certainly not to the level of some of the men in the other thread who are saying it "means" a certain thing if she did with with Bob and not him and who are apparently spending hours of their lives fretting over literally hypothetical situations that have not even happened to them.


No, it was a big deal to her, but I made sure that there was no pressure on her in the new town, made sure we made the trip to see her friends and family every few weeks, made sure we socially engaged in the new town to help her find me friends. I did everything I could to help. I didn't just tell her to deal with it. I did everything I could to counter the resentment, to show her my investment in her feelings.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> Not to be insensitive....but I'm not sure that really means anything except that your wife was/is irrationally resentful.
> 
> See, just because a feeling exists doesnt mean its rational or NOT selfish.


Sure, it may have been irrational, but that doesn't make it any less real, and can't be discounted.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I did not want to know what my second wife did, nor did I ask any details. I just wanted to try to figure out if we were compatible in the area of sexual experience. It is fruitless to ask what she did. It's a waste of time and effort. She will never tell you, but she may tell her AP. She doesn't care if he respects her. She cares that her husband respects her. 


Anyone see the difference and why an AP or boyfriend will get what the husband never will?


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Women can be manipulated, just as men. They don't want to give away too much information, or you might use it against them. Can you blame them? NO!

However, there is little good communication that can come from any dialogue when one of the two has to couch their words and speak metaphorically. 

It's also tough because when you do get too close to, or hit the truth right in the bull's eye, they have to get angry and confuse things, so you forget what you just realized. If you remember, you might use it against her somehow. 


So, I ask, does a woman ever truly fully trust a man? mmm... I don't think so, ever.

Edit: She also, therefore, can never be fully open and honest with her husband. She can't. She's afraid.


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## azimuth (May 15, 2018)

I thought of something that bothered me with my exH that he did with others but not me, and it was pursue me. I was the one who asked him out and pursued him when we first started dating. Because of the nature of that, there's nothing I could do so I didn't get angry about it or anything, because if I hadn't asked him out then we wouldn't have been together so worrying about it was pointless. He said he had always wanted to date me but I was too pretty to ask out (his words, we met at work) and he was intimidated so didn't try. But it set the tone for our relationship that I was the one who wanted to be together and I "chased" him. I ended up initiating about 80% of the time during our marriage. I was the one who wanted to move our life forward with marriage and kids. So he kind of acted like he was just along for the ride. It didn't bother-bother me until he left, and he set up dating profiles, and went on dates, and pursued many women. Not just one or two but dozens. He played the whole online dating thing to the max. Then it hurt that he had never showed an ounce of that enthusiasm with me while we were together. Obviously he wasn't shy asking those women out, so I felt used and stupid. But sexual stuff, or anything else in the relationship, I never cared about what he did with others and I never asked. He never asked me about my sexual past either. Him pursuing other women didn't bother me until he was gone.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

2ntnuf said:


> Women can be manipulated, just as men. They don't want to give away too much information, or you might use it against them. Can you blame them? NO!
> 
> However, there is little good communication that can come from any dialogue when one of the two has to couch their words and speak metaphorically.
> 
> ...


I think communication compatibility is important. People do it at different depths and from many different perspectives and ways. 

I disagree about the trust thing comment. I wonder if you've seen the violent rage that some women have reacted with after having been betrayed. I 'm not talking about women with mental health issues either. That kind of rage comes from a woman who trusted her man 100%.....,in my unsupported opinion . :grin2:


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> Women communicate in a different language than men. That's why we don't understand each other. That's a general and true statement.
> 
> Women in this thread have assumed so very much, simply by me using the word, "women".
> 
> ...


Sorry, bud. You don't represent anything I have ever experienced about how "men" communicate. You are bordering on incomprehensible in your brevity.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

2ntnuf said:


> Women communicate in a different language than men. That's why we don't understand each other. That's a general and true statement.
> 
> Women in this thread have assumed so very much, simply by me using the word, "women".
> 
> ...



I'm not sure I'm following you on this. I understand the women I date and I'm a good listener/communicator with them. I never get used and abused by anyone.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

inmyprime said:


> It must be very tempting not to exercise that power: to use sex as a training/conditioning mechanism...I wonder if there is an equivalent power men can use, apart from sulking (which is equally childish).


Oh, there are men who use sex in this same way. I was married to one. Many of the women who post here about husbands who withhold sex describe the same thing. There are both men and women who are manipulative. Manipulative people find a way to manipulate by using what a person cares about to control and/or punish them.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Bananapeel said:


> 2ntnuf said:
> 
> 
> > Women communicate in a different language than men. That's why we don't understand each other. That's a general and true statement.
> ...


This is because you are healthy, bananapeel.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> Oh, there are men who use sex in this same way. I was married to one. Many of the women who post here about husbands who withhold sex describe the same thing. There both men and women who are manipulative. Manipulative people find a way to manipulate by using what a person cares about to control and/or punish them.



Yes, I can imagine that very well being true. But looking at my own marriage, I’m trying to think of one thing that I could use to manipulate my wife/marriage (as a thought exercise) and I cannot think of anything at all apart from sulking (which I don’t make a habit of but if I’m not happy about something, i will show and express my displeasure with it).

And a ‘typical’ marriage will probably be similar? (By typical I mean there are more men on average who seem to be complaining about lack of sex or enthusiastic sex than there are women complaining). 
I guess some men can exert financial limitations but our marriage is not structured like that: we have had joint accounts forever and she always has access to anything and can get anything she wants, anytime.
Basically, I don’t really know how I’m that useful to her, in that sense, beyond being nice to her or being there for her. And she could very well one day simply decide that actually, I’m not that nice to her or not that useful anymore. Whereas I don’t see myself ever stop wanting sex with her (from her?).
Don’t know if any of it makes sense. Because I obviously don’t just need her for sex but that’s one of the strong needs that could be easily turned on/off, and have a big and immediate effect right away.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I've never understood "using" sex as a manipulation tool or punishment. I know people do it - sadly mostly women. But it's just so.....selfish and shrewish. I mean, do they not see how b****y that is???


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> EleGirl said:
> 
> 
> > Oh, there are men who use sex in this same way. I was married to one. Many of the women who post here about husbands who withhold sex describe the same thing. There both men and women who are manipulative. Manipulative people find a way to manipulate by using what a person cares about to control and/or punish them.
> ...


So she wouldn't care if you stopped spending time with her, having conversations with her, showing her affection??


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Livvie said:


> So she wouldn't care if you stopped spending time with her, having conversations with her, showing her affection??



Well yes, that’s basically sulking in a nutshell. She would care, being who she is. But I imagine it is not really such a strong need, it’s more of a ‘want’ or ‘luxury’. Whereas sex for me (with her) is a biological need, as well as a want.
When it matters, she does ‘run the extra mile’, she will make up (even if she is not in the wrong sometimes) and she doesn’t like holding grudges.
But this could all change.
Once a month, those things seem to completely fly out of the window. 
Her moods and Ben character are very cycle-dependant. Which is scary. You wouldn’t normally think of a person as a collection of hormones/chemicals but that’s what we are.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> I've never understood "using" sex as a manipulation tool or punishment. I know people do it - sadly mostly women. But it's just so.....selfish and shrewish. I mean, do they not see how b****y that is???



She doesn’t do this anymore as I wrote. I think she realised that it’s too easy. Or that it’s not fair game I’m not sure.
It was quite an eye opener for me to read that it can happen the other way around sometimes as well (as per Elegirl’s thread). Who would have thunk it. 
I thought (troubled) men mainly resort to violence/abuse or become alcoholics (this goes hand in hand probably) or become lazy, whiny bums etc.
But that they would withhold sex? Weird. I would have thought it would be like shooting themselves in the foot.



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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> Sorry, bud. You don't represent anything I have ever experienced about how "men" communicate. You are bordering on incomprehensible in your brevity.


Don't be sorry, just move on.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Yes, I can imagine that very well being true. But looking at my own marriage, I’m trying to think of one thing that I could use to manipulate my wife/marriage (as a thought exercise) and I cannot think of anything at all apart from sulking (which I don’t make a habit of but if I’m not happy about something, i will show and express my displeasure with it).
> 
> And a ‘typical’ marriage will probably be similar? (By typical I mean there are more men on average who seem to be complaining about lack of sex or enthusiastic sex than there are women complaining).
> I guess some men can exert financial limitations but our marriage is not structured like that: we have had joint accounts forever and she always has access to anything and can get anything she wants, anytime.
> ...



You can't really exert any pressure on her that she doesn't want to take. Most women are not going to take that kind of crap for very long.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Well yes, that’s basically sulking in a nutshell. She would care, being who she is. But I imagine it is not really such a strong need, it’s more of a ‘want’ or ‘luxury’. Whereas sex for me (with her) is a biological need, as well as a want.
> When it matters, she does ‘run the extra mile’, she will make up (even if she is not in the wrong sometimes) and she doesn’t like holding grudges.
> But this could all change.
> Once a month, those things seem to completely fly out of the window.
> ...


Sulking is actually abuse.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

PigglyWiggly said:


> I think communication compatibility is important. People do it at different depths and from many different perspectives and ways.
> 
> I disagree about the trust thing comment. I wonder if you've seen the violent rage that some women have reacted with after having been betrayed. I 'm not talking about women with mental health issues either. That kind of rage comes from a woman who trusted her man 100%.....,in my unsupported opinion . :grin2:


Communication compatibility is important. Do you know how most men in this forum get along with women in the forum? They don't speak their mind. They agree with them, rather than disagree or question. 

That isn't communication, but it's what most of the women I've known thought was great communication. Women used to use the word, "listen", as in, "He doesn't listen to me", which means, he doesn't do what I tell him or agree that I am right.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

2ntnuf said:


> Ladies, women, whatever you like to be called, please post your issue(s).
> 
> Once, I was asked why I helped a woman move, but never asked her for something in return. Another time, I was asked why I was part of a crew who put a roof on a woman's house for free. (She was just out of an abusive marriage and the roof was leaking badly. She had no money. Her Dad was my friend.)
> 
> ...


I suppose I could rehash some of my issue(s), but I doubt it would be helpful as it pertains to this thread. Are you simply asking women to discuss things with which they have issue(s) vis-à-vis their partners? Sort of like a venting session?

What I'm reading is you were used by some women you helped out. Then the woman with whom you were involved didn't like that you helped out other women because she wanted to be the only one who could use you/take advantage of you. Is that correct?


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Bananapeel said:


> I'm not sure I'm following you on this. I understand the women I date and I'm a good listener/communicator with them. I never get used and abused by anyone.


I mainly am only told I don't communicate well by the women on this forum that I make angry. In person, my stylist cuts my hair the way I want. If she isn't sure, she asks and I tell her. She then does what I have asked. That's good communication. 

While waiting for my appointment, a woman started a conversation with me. On my way out, she asked if I wanted her number. I told her, "no". When she asked why, I said, "I'm not that kind of person". 

That's good communication when a woman asks for your number. My response was short, to the point and undeniable. Communication doesn't get any more clear than that.

Now, if you are talking sweet talk and all that, I don't do that.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Prodigal said:


> I suppose I could rehash some of my issue(s), but I doubt it would be helpful as it pertains to this thread. Are you simply asking women to discuss things with which they have issue(s) vis-à-vis their partners? Sort of like a venting session?
> 
> What I'm reading is you were used by some women you helped out. Then the woman with whom you were involved didn't like that you helped out other women because she wanted to be the only one who could use you/take advantage of you. Is that correct?


How much of the thread have you read, Prod. This thread was never meant to be about me. Once I made some comments about what I was being told, referring to women, some got angry and started to say I don't know how to communicate and other bull hudda. 

They thought I had an agenda, and I was open with what that was in at least one or two posts, but they continued to think this thread was about any issues I have. It isn't. That wasn't why I started it. 

It's like telling folks I don't date and haven't dated, nor been with a woman, mostly by choice, since my second wife left. It's true, but I am not believed. So, the only time I started to talk about myself was when all the women started attacking me. That was after I used the word, "women", meaning the women of this thread, but some took that as a lie because of themselves. They can't believe. It's their problem, not mine.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Let me go back and see if I can actually find where I tried to explain what I wanted and women denied any issues. Then, when pressed, they started to say the things that I wanted them to say, but didn't realize they were doing it. They thought I tricked them, but I wasn't trying to trick them. They just assumed this was about me and not what I stated.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Actually, I read the entire thread yesterday. The only reason I quoted your initial post is because I was a bit confused by the background story you gave and how it related to the thread. In other words, you were posting about an instance that occurred in your life to get the ball rolling, but you are interested in what issues TAMers may have encountered.

I'll blame it on the heat and that glass of wine I just finished. I just wanted clarification on the initial post.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> I think that your scenario here is different than that in the thread about men being upset because their woman did sexual things with men in the past that the women would not now do sexually with the him. It's about things done before they even met. Your scenario seems to be about things you have done for other women while you were in a relationship.
> 
> That said....
> 
> ...



Here's where it started to go wrong, Prod. Look at the 'likes' this post has gotten. It's like the third post of the thread. I'll quote my response, too.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> If I gave that impression, I didn't mean to. I was single when I did those things. Ten years later, after smiling and saying hello to some woman I was asked by my relationship partner, "How do you know her"? I was honest. I told her and while seemingly okay at the time with it, within a week, I was being asked to help out her family with things they never asked before.
> 
> It could have been coincidence, but it is unlikely, since I know her well.



I don't know why it wasn't plain enough. Maybe because I went on to answer some of her questions in her post?


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Prod, they go on to start talking about sex, because that's what they think is the equivalent of the other thread, but it's not. Women and men are not the same and that pisses some off when that is realized. 

One member went on to say that she doesn't worry about sex, because it isn't so hard for her to get it. 

Well, I knew that when I started this thread. That's why I didn't make it exactly like the other. 


What this thread was about was a woman's complaints about what men did for others that they would not do for their wives. I knew that wasn't going to be anything sexual, because most women got all that before they married, then married for reasons that were more important to them at the time. Of course sex was still important, but not like it is to the men in the other thread. Those men seem to want some things that are a bit wild or whatever, and the women don't want that. 

I've said that women don't want their husband to lose respect for them and that's why they will never get that stuff, with some exceptions, but not many. 


So, what is the opposite for a woman or for women? Usually, it seems to be their husband won't communicate(openly share the weaknesses she would never share with him, but would with friends). 


Sometimes, it's that their husband has done too much for his mother or family and there is a rift in the marriage. 

There are lots of things that are similar to a man wanting sexual favors, but not getting them. 

Maybe she wants him to go to places he doesn't want to go and he refuses? 

Tons of things on the opposite side will cause an issue in the bedroom, but no one here has any of those issues like average folks. So, whatever. 

That's how these women communicate, though I don't communicate well. Sure......


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Prodigal said:


> Actually, I read the entire thread yesterday. The only reason I quoted your initial post is because I was a bit confused by the background story you gave and how it related to the thread. In other words, you were posting about an instance that occurred in your life to get the ball rolling, but you are interested in what issues TAMers may have encountered.
> 
> I'll blame it on the heat and that glass of wine I just finished. I just wanted clarification on the initial post.


I do tend to do that. I will give an example from my life, rather than talking generally about things in an effort to make it easier to understand what I am asking. It doesn't mean I want to talk about my life, but usually means I want others to feel free to talk. I'm opening up and offering something personal in an effort to make others more comfortable. 


See, I don't think I've ever asked a direct question about my own life. That's mainly because there was no fixing what was gone. It was over and that's it. I was hurt badly, but the only thin left was to try to understand what happened. That's all I wanted before. 


This time, I wanted women to open up so they, and men could see how they don't always get what they want, either. 

And knowing that women's interest in sex starts long before, it makes a difference in a woman's openness to even discuss something that her husband wants. She usually knows she is marrying some man with less sexual experience or the same or more. It isn't hard for her to tell. It is for men, mainly because women don't talk about it and won't show what they know in the bedroom because of personal fears. 

I understand that and it's okay.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

The point of this thread was to try to manipulate women into saying some mysterious "thing" so that YOU could say "AHA! See I TOLD you women are xxx."

You have some things that need to be addressed in therapy.

That is clear communication.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> Sulking is actually abuse.


It's 2018. I'm pretty sure leaving the toilet seat up is considered abusive today. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Cletus said:


> It's 2018. I'm pretty sure leaving the toilet seat up is considered abusive today.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


Leaving the toilet seat up is a microaggression, and example of toxic masculinity.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

samyeagar said:


> Leaving the toilet seat up is a microaggression, and example of toxic masculinity.


:lol:

Actually I think it's positive masculinity because it is pure gender equality for each person to be solely responsible for their own bathroom habits regardless of gender. The moment men should have to put the toilet seat down when they are done is the same moment a woman should have to pick the toilet seat up when she's done...at least that is if you actually believe in pure gender equality.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> The point of this thread was to try to manipulate women into saying some mysterious "thing" so that YOU could say "AHA! See I TOLD you women are xxx."
> 
> You have some things that need to be addressed in therapy.
> 
> That is clear communication.


When one points fingers and judges others, they must realize it is something inside themselves that causes that. Manipulation is best left to women. I don't try to manipulate anyone. I put it out there. You didn't like it when the truth came out.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Cletus said:


> It's 2018. I'm pretty sure leaving the toilet seat up is considered abusive today.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


Sulking and not talking to your wife has always been abuse. It's called stonewalling.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

2ntnuf said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > The point of this thread was to try to manipulate women into saying some mysterious "thing" so that YOU could say "AHA! See I TOLD you women are xxx."
> ...


LOL sure, whatever

But nooooooooo......you dont hate women. You're COMPLETELY healthy and well adjusted.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

samyeagar said:


> Leaving the toilet seat up is a microaggression, and example of toxic masculinity.


:laugh: What is it when you put the lid down? 

Once, I had to fish out something that fell into the commode off the back. It was some hair care device or makeup product. I didn't have long enough gloves, so I put an empty bread bag over my hand and arm and reached into the drink. Oh yeah, it was great fun. 

I didn't want to have to do that again, so I put the lid down in the evening after I went to the bathroom and before crawling into bed. I told her I was going to do it and why. She watched me pull out whatever fell in the drink. 

She got up during the middle of the night, never turned a light on and didn't look before she "leaped". She peed all over herself and gave me hell for wrapping the toilet seat in plastic wrap. I never wrapped it in anything. Someone she told about what happened, told her I'd probably done that. She believed them, not that I put the lid down and she didn't realize it. 

You talk about effed up. I even had her come with me to check the garbage bags all over the apartment and in the can outside. She still refused to believe that I did not put plastic over the seat. 

Why in hell would I do that? All I wanted was to try to stop things from falling into the toilet. I didn't want to have to fish anything else out soon.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> LOL sure, whatever
> 
> But nooooooooo......you dont hate women. You're COMPLETELY healthy and well adjusted.


Well, that's because I treat you as an equal. You don't like that. You want to be given an easier time of it. Grow up. Quit dreaming. Be a man.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

2ntnuf said:


> Sulking is actually abuse.




I agree. As is chewing loudly or singing out loud in public. Light the torches  !!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

2ntnuf said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > LOL sure, whatever
> ...


No, you treat me like a proxy of the women who hurt you. You generalize and assume all women are alike.

I mean, you're in good company. There are about a dozen other men who do the same thing.

But I'm not your mother, your exes, etc.

Like I said before, people who know me KNOW me. You dont.

I'll leave now so you all can commiserate about us women lol


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> No, you treat me like a proxy of the women who hurt you. You generalize and assume all women are alike.
> 
> I mean, you're in good company. There are about a dozen other men who do the same thing.
> 
> ...


That's what I've posted about not liking in certain women. They can't take responsibility for their actions. They blame your mother, which is way out of line, or a man's life experiences at the hands of other women. They want the man to change, but they don't see themselves as an issue. You caused my feelings for you, not the general population of women. Accept it and take responsibility for it, or be lumped in with the kind of women I don't usually bother with. 

FAIL


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