# Married but Alone



## gskern (May 26, 2014)

I'm posting to the "Guys" forum because I'd like replies back from GUYS in my situation...

It's pretty simple, really: My wife of 20 years has never, and does not/will not now, put her Heart into our relationship... Will not make a personal choice, a personal commitment, to do everything she herself can do to build her marriage...

From nearly the beginning, she pointed the finger at her husband's sins, faults and failures, and promptly checked OUT. And now 20 years have gone by and there is no reason to think things are going to change any time soon...

So...

Here's my question:
Insofar as my wife maintains this "screw this marriage, I'll just find happiness on my own" Mentality, how does a Guy (me) get his OWN needs met? We all have the need for Attachment, for Connection... For Affection and Sex and Encouragement and (some degree of) Attention...

How/Where can a Guy find these things on his OWN (without doing anything immoral)? How does someone who is married-but-alone CARE for himself?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
GS


----------



## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

D I V O R C E ... seems like this is what you needed to do long long long ago.


----------



## gskern (May 26, 2014)

Entropy3000 said:


> D I V O R C E ... seems like this is what you needed to do long long long ago.


Divorce has always been an option, of course; but we have 2 terrific Kids (both teens, now), and I and my in-laws (her parents) love each other very deeply...

... being a Christian, too, I am called to remain committed to this no matter what, even to Forgive if and when I have any "justified" reason to get a Divorce... The "Abandonment" thing she has done is a good example...

But even if I divorced, I assume I would be outside of a relationship for some period of time... So the question still stands: What are some things we Guys can do to CARE for ourselves despite being in or not in a loving relationship with a woman?

Thanks --


----------



## xakulax (Feb 9, 2014)

gskern said:


> my question:
> Insofar as my wife maintains this "screw this marriage, I'll just find happiness on my own" Mentality, how does a Guy (me) get his OWN needs met?



Its simple get a D I V O R C E if she checked out of the marriage why are you still with her :scratchhead:


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Since you are not wanting to divorce, get the book "Divorce Busters". It has a lot of good ideas.


----------



## gskern (May 26, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> Since you are not wanting to divorce, get the book "Divorce Busters". It has a lot of good ideas.


OK. Thank you for the resource. I'll check it out.


----------



## xakulax (Feb 9, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> Since you are not wanting to divorce, get the book "Divorce Busters". It has a lot of good ideas.



:iagree:


I agree with EleGirl divorce busters might be your best bet but you should have a plan in case this fails.


----------



## gskern (May 26, 2014)

xakulax said:


> :iagree:
> 
> 
> I agree with EleGirl divorce busters might be your best bet but you should have a plan in case this fails.



Thanks you guys. I do appreciate your Input.


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

What I'd do:

#1 get your stuff in order. By which I mean become the best, awesomest, coolest guy you can be. Fit, good threads, the works. Spend a couple or three months at this.
#2 be out a lot. Go do your own stuff. Be awesome. Every time you get the cold shoulder from the wife, LEAVE and go do something fun and positive. Gym, pub, hike, whatever turns your crank. When she tries to screw with your head or throw fitness tests, smirk and walk away. DO NOT ENGAGE. Spend a month or two at this.
#3 when she eventually asks what is up respond with a clear articulation of what your expectations of marriage are. DO NOT BE PERSONAL and BE CLEAR. "Wife, I expect sex X times a week, cuddling on the couch, and affection from my wife." Then leave.
#4 ramp up being awesome. Be gone a lot. Spend a couple weeks at this.
#5 if she doesn't come around, put two pieces of paper in front of her. One is a clear articulation of what it will take for YOU to stay, the other is a separation agreement. She decides within 24 hours.

Either way you're the best guy you can be and either has a wife that is willing to work on things, or you're the best you can be as you re-enter the dating game.

Either way you win.


----------



## gskern (May 26, 2014)

marduk said:


> What I'd do:
> 
> #1 get your stuff in order. By which I mean become the best, awesomest, coolest guy you can be. Fit, good threads, the works. Spend a couple or three months at this.
> #2 be out a lot. Go do your own stuff. Be awesome. Every time you get the cold shoulder from the wife, LEAVE and go do something fun and positive. Gym, pub, hike, whatever turns your crank. When she tries to screw with your head or throw fitness tests, smirk and walk away. DO NOT ENGAGE. Spend a month or two at this.
> ...



Marduk,
Great post. I like the upbeat flavor of it. I will also take these thoughts and ponder them!


----------



## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

gskern said:


> But even if I divorced, I assume I would be outside of a relationship for some period of time... So the question still stands: What are some things we Guys can do to CARE for ourselves despite being in or not in a loving relationship with a woman?
> 
> Thanks --


Eat well and exercise regularly...care for your body.
Read, go back to school, get involved in Bible study...care for your mind.
Spend time with your children, maybe take up a hobby together, like biking or swimming or tennis...care for your heart.
Get more involved with your church...care for your soul.
Volunteer, devote time to helping those less fortunate, anything from teaching for Junior Achievement to pet shelters to nursing homes or hospitals...care for your spirit.
Spend more time with your friends and extended family...care for you heart and social needs.


----------



## gskern (May 26, 2014)

norajane said:


> Eat well and exercise regularly...care for your body.
> Read, go back to school, get involved in Bible study...care for your mind.
> Spend time with your children, maybe take up a hobby together, like biking or swimming or tennis...care for your heart.
> Get more involved with your church...care for your soul.
> ...


norajane,
More excellent Feedback.
Of course, the one big category NOT on the list is Sex, but that requires a caring and affectionate partner... I guess that one may have to go Unmet for awhile.


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

gskern said:


> Divorce has always been an option, of course; but we have 2 terrific Kids (both teens, now), and I and my in-laws (her parents) love each other very deeply...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm not saying it is too late, but you waited a long time to deal with an issue that appears to have been there from the very beginning of your relationship. And, likely before you had children. 

So do you do anything together as a family? Do you two ever do anything together as a couple? Finally, what are the normal communications between the two of you about?


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

One of the best things about my journey improving my marriage was that I finally started thinking about who I want to be as a man, and then going and doing that.

Only you can answer that.


----------



## gskern (May 26, 2014)

drerio said:


> I'm not saying it is too late, but you waited a long time to deal with an issue that appears to have been there from the very beginning of your relationship. And, likely before you had children.
> 
> So do you do anything together as a family? Do you two ever do anything together as a couple? Finally, what are the normal communications between the two of you about?


drerio,
You're assuming I'm just now doing anything about it. Absolutely false. Have tried many things over the years, nothing has yet broken through her belligerent, stone-hearted "EFF YOU" Attitude.

When SHE is in an amorous frame of mind (it comes and goes), sure, we do lots of things together... and enjoy good sex ... and do things as a family... but as soon as I make it known what *I* would like, or what might be on MY mind, or bothering ME, oh man... It's nuclear winter around here...


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

gskern said:


> drerio,
> 
> You're assuming I'm just now doing anything about it. Absolutely false. Have tried many things over the years, nothing has yet broken through her belligerent, stone-hearted "EFF YOU" Attitude.
> 
> ...



Sorry, I didn't mean to imply anything, you have to forgive us reading your story for the first time with your posted truncated history. 

So you do things together as a couple and as a family and you imply a healthy sex life (making the assumption based on your statement). Can you then provide an example of what you mean by things you would like to do that turns your home into permafrost under your feet?


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

gskern said:


> When SHE is in an amorous frame of mind (it comes and goes), sure, we do lots of things together... and enjoy good sex ... and do things as a family... but as soon as I make it known what *I* would like, or what might be on MY mind, or bothering ME, oh man... It's nuclear winter around here...


Heh.

Wife used to do similar things... when she was in the mood it was all fun and sexy time (for what she wanted) then when I voiced what I wanted it was all about the "I give you sex why won't you just be happy with what I give you."

It all seemed to change the day she saw me get propositioned by a "friend" of hers that was younger and hotter than my wife.

Suddenly I heard a lot of "OK, we can try it..."

Just a coincidence, I'm sure...


----------



## gskern (May 26, 2014)

drerio said:


> Sorry, I didn't mean to imply anything, you have to forgive us reading your story for the first time with your posted truncated history.
> 
> So you do things together as a couple and as a family and you imply a healthy sex life (making the assumption based on your statement). Can you then provide an example of what you mean by things you would like to do that turns your home into permafrost under your feet?


Ha... How much time do you have? 
Here are 2 for-instances:

-- We were at a restaurant a few weeks ago, having lunch, talking, and I spent a few minutes sharing some of my own thoughts on some topic... Soon as I was done, she sat there with her arms folded and spit out, "You've been talking for FIVE MINUTES!!" Wow. OK.

-- Yesterday she came in my room, said good morning, and gave me what I call a "punch kiss": 2 sets of lips doing really just a quick "bump" and not much else.. So I was going to just make a little comical "tease" out of it (I really do not like that, but at the moment I wasn't trying to make a big deal over it... just rib her a little bit...) She rolled her eyes and said something about me "starting something", to which I casually replied that perhaps she should see it from my perspective, to which she angrily, now, replied, "then CHANGE your Perspective!!" and it was on....

Sure, those are 2 small ones, but when you have hundreds and hundreds of "small ones" piled up over 20 years, a PATTERN has emerged...

Similarly, last week I hinted that I'd like to have sex with her (and when we were at the parking lot of our meeting, she was kissing me and acting "interested"...) We got home... laid there looking at the ceiling for 10 minutes... then I remembered that she has said she wants me to initiate more often... so I did... but it was VERY awkward... She wasn't "joining in" or being sweet or affectionate or kind or caring or sexy or ANYTHING... she just laid there... It was *EXTREMELY* unsatisfying...

And when I asked her about it, about 20 minutes after it was over, she said she didn't get "into it" because "we have baggage"... 

And this is what I get ANY TIME I am the one who "initiates"... but when SHE initiates... Why then, she's sweet, and soft and sexy and inviting and affectionate, etc. etc... and we have really enjoyable, satisfying sex...

SO... YOU SEE...

As long as I play Mr. Fence Post, Mr. Smiley-and-always-happy-with-things, as long as I don't express MY wishes wants feelings thoughts desires, etc., all seems well... But when I open up... POW... 

There is no Give-and-Take with her; only TAKE, and Give-What-When-and-How-I-Bloody-Well-Please with her... There is no "He Comes Before Me" ATTITUDE (though I have a She-Comes-Before-Me Attitude toward her...)

So there it is. Ever seen or read the Shakespeare play, "Taming of the Shrew"? I'm married to the Shrew.


----------



## gskern (May 26, 2014)

marduk said:


> Heh.
> 
> Wife used to do similar things... when she was in the mood it was all fun and sexy time (for what she wanted) then when I voiced what I wanted it was all about the "I give you sex why won't you just be happy with what I give you."
> 
> ...


HA. Marduk, sounds like you GET my situation exactly. She gives WHAT, WHEN, HOW, and IF she pleases, and when her forced "X" doesn't match my "Y" need, she bitterly complains that I'm "too needy" and need way too much "attention"...


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

gskern said:


> Ha... How much time do you have?
> 
> Here are 2 for-instances:
> 
> ...



Hmm, have either of you considered MC. I'm not an expert, but your description of her sounds like either a power struggle or personality issue (on her part). Of course you have to understand we are only getting your side of the story. I'm not suggesting your view is inaccurate, but from what I am reading there are issues in her life that may require professional counseling. Just my opinion.


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Daily, both partners make choices about their marriage. They either choose to strengthen it or they choose to destroy it. Apparently, your's has chosen to destroy her marriage and to be abandoned. It'd be a shame to disappoint such effort. Your kids are basically grown. Part of your job as a father is to teach them how to behave as adult men. You can teach them that men give respect and demand respect in return or you can teach them that it is normal and acceptable for a man to put up with a heartless, hateful bat right up until the moment Death mercifully rescues them. Why are you supporting a woman who holds you in consistent and utter contempt? Your kids have eyes and brains. Have they ever seen the real you, the one that could thrive in a healthy relationship? If she's not adding to your life, making you want to be more and do more than you could be alone, what the hell is she doing in your house?


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

gskern said:


> -- We were at a restaurant a few weeks ago, having lunch, talking, and I spent a few minutes sharing some of my own thoughts on some topic... Soon as I was done, she sat there with her arms folded and spit out, "You've been talking for FIVE MINUTES!!" Wow. OK.


What was the topic?

Did you really talk for 5 minutes nonstop? Did you ask her opinion or for her thoughts?



gskern said:


> -- Yesterday she came in my room, said good morning, and gave me what I call a "punch kiss": 2 sets of lips doing really just a quick "bump" and not much else.. So I was going to just make a little comical "tease" out of it (I really do not like that, but at the moment I wasn't trying to make a big deal over it... just rib her a little bit...) She rolled her eyes and said something about me "starting something", to which I casually replied that perhaps she should see it from my perspective, to which she angrily, now, replied, "then CHANGE your Perspective!!" and it was on....


What was the comic tease that you did?


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> What was the topic?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Good point.


----------



## gskern (May 26, 2014)

drerio said:


> Hmm, have either of you considered MC. I'm not an expert, but your description of her sounds like either a power struggle or personality issue (on her part). Of course you have to understand we are only getting your side of the story. I'm not suggesting your view is inaccurate, but from what I am reading there are issues in her life that may require professional counseling. Just my opinion.


drerio,
Yes we've been to Counseling numerous times over the years... she won't budge. Hears what she wants to hear. That and/or the counselor dances all around the issue (extending our counseling time... gee I wonder why...)...


----------



## gskern (May 26, 2014)

unbelievable said:


> Daily, both partners make choices about their marriage. They either choose to strengthen it or they choose to destroy it. Apparently, your's has chosen to destroy her marriage and to be abandoned. It'd be a shame to disappoint such effort. Your kids are basically grown. Part of your job as a father is to teach them how to behave as adult men. You can teach them that men give respect and demand respect in return or you can teach them that it is normal and acceptable for a man to put up with a heartless, hateful bat right up until the moment Death mercifully rescues them. Why are you supporting a woman who holds you in consistent and utter contempt? Your kids have eyes and brains. Have they ever seen the real you, the one that could thrive in a healthy relationship? If she's not adding to your life, making you want to be more and do more than you could be alone, what the hell is she doing in your house?


Unbelievable, 
You make some excellent points.
They have never seen just how GOOD things could be if their mother DID join in and build a strong and thriving relationship with their dad... They have also, of course, seen their own dad's sins, faults and failures... I hope that what they pick up from my enduring my wife's rotten Attitude is the ideas of Patience and Forgiveness and even Compassion... They probably don't know or appreciate the depth and breadth of the problem; part of my wife's "Screw Him!" Attitude is that she then turns and acts all "happy cheerful Buddy" to the kids, to give them the impression that her husband is over in the corner being miserable "by himself", and why don't you two and me just have laughs together and not worry about him and his "problems"... Just plain Evil, but I can't control her beliefs or behaviors...

She's in my house because I hold out the hope that she will have a Heart Change at some point... I believe very deeply in Redemption...


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

gskern said:


> drerio,
> 
> Yes we've been to Counseling numerous times over the years... she won't budge. Hears what she wants to hear. That and/or the counselor dances all around the issue (extending our counseling time... gee I wonder why...)...



Most counselors I'm familiar with often give couples homework assignments to work on their issues.


----------



## gskern (May 26, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> What was the topic?
> 
> Did you really talk for 5 minutes nonstop? Did you ask her opinion or for her thoughts?
> 
> ...


I probably did talk for somewhere around that amount of time (is that a problem?)... Just sharing thoughts... Yes of course I asked her opinion... I always do... THAT was the answer I got...

The little tease I did was, I kinda bumped my fists together and, smiling, said something about that being a "kiss bump"... but again, it could have very EASILY been a laughable matter, with her smiling and saying "oh whatever" or, teasing back, "fine then I just won't kiss you anymore"... to which I'd laugh, and it would have been no big deal...

It was the "then CHANGE your perspective!!" retort that turned the air chilly...


----------



## gskern (May 26, 2014)

The entire situation really -- like almost all of Life -- boils down to one fundamental thing: ATTITUDE. I am not a perfect husband nor a perfect human - I make a lot of mistakes and I can be a jerk sometimes - but I have the right Attitude toward my wife, and toward marriage, and toward my kids... I do not BLAME her for my own sins, faults and failures, and I extend forgiveness and long-suffering toward her nearly every day... I am always ready to work WITH her on, together, creating a strong and fulfilling marriage...

She has the opposite attitude: She BLAMES me, she criticizes and judges me constantly, she won't forgive, won't "see the good" in me, etc... She has consistently stated that "this marriage is terrible" and that my "qualities" are "mostly bad" and that I'm "too needy.. it's exhausting" she says (but she cannot define, even to the therapist, what that even means)...

So I hope and wait and pray for an ATTITUDE Change. An Ebeneezer Scrooge moment. An Epiphany. Or else I'll go to my grave being able to say to God that at least I didn't quit. 

VIRTUE is more valuable than my own mere "Happiness".

I really only raised this thread to ask for suggestions as to how to care for my own Needs, in this Alone-ness that I live in.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

gskern said:


> I probably did talk for somewhere around that amount of time (is that a problem?)... Just sharing thoughts... Yes of course I asked her opinion... I always do... THAT was the answer I got...


Not having any idea of what you were talking about... I'll have to respond about general social conversation.

You are out to dinner with your wife, this is a social setting. Talking to her 5 five minute is not a conversation. It's you talking at her. I'd be very annoyed if I was out to dinner with my husband and he talked at me for 5 minutes. 

This is not the end of the world. But her response is not either. 

You see her fault but you do not see your own.




gskern said:


> The little tease I did was, I kinda bumped my fists together and, smiling, said something about that being a "kiss bump"... but again, it could have very EASILY been a laughable matter, with her smiling and saying "oh whatever" or, teasing back, "fine then I just won't kiss you anymore"... to which I'd laugh, and it would have been no big deal...
> 
> It was the "then CHANGE your perspective!!" retort that turned the air chilly...


You made your comment about the kiss bump because it annoyed you. She knows you well enough to know your annoyed (fake joking) voice. So yes you were starting something.

Again it's not the end of the world. 

You complain that she does not show affection. But when she did you got annoyed and did this. A lot of people would consider that being pushed away.

Why did you have a hard time accepting her "bump kiss"?


----------



## gskern (May 26, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> Not having any idea of what you were talking about... I'll have to respond about general social conversation.
> 
> You are out to dinner with your wife, this is a social setting. Talking to her 5 five minute is not a conversation. It's you talking at her. I'd be very annoyed if I was out to dinner with my husband and he talked at me for 5 minutes.
> 
> ...


EleGirl,
I must not be making myself clear to you. Language is a funny thing and sometimes people hear the same things very differently. 

It would be very difficult, in both these situations, to convey the "feel" of the situation, and I can assure you that your responses (to what you believe you're hearing) are off-base. But I appreciate the attempt to give feedback, anyway.

To your points:
1. I was not talking AT her. That's your own interpretation. I was sharing a few thoughts with her. Period. Adults share their thoughts with other adults all the time, and in good conversations, nobody is holding a stop watch. It was a chance for her to KNOW her husband, and my willingness to share my thoughts was my willingness to BE KNOWN by my wife.

That's what the process of True Love involves: Knowing and Being Known.

2. There is so much insertion of what you think you heard into the second thing that I don't know where to start, and I doubt it would do any good, anyway. The bottom line is that ANY time I express ANY unhappiness or preferences or ANYTHING coming from me, she goes into "screw you" mode... 

Please keep the judgements to yourself.


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

gskern said:


> The entire situation really -- like almost all of Life -- boils down to one fundamental thing: ATTITUDE. I am not a perfect husband nor a perfect human - I make a lot of mistakes and I can be a jerk sometimes - but I have the right Attitude toward my wife, and toward marriage, and toward my kids... I do not BLAME her for my own sins, faults and failures, and I extend forgiveness and long-suffering toward her nearly every day... I am always ready to work WITH her on, together, creating a strong and fulfilling marriage...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm just curious do you have any hobbies or activities/organizations that you are part of outside of your home environment?


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

gskern said:


> EleGirl,
> I must not be making myself clear to you. Language is a funny thing and sometimes people hear the same things very differently.
> 
> It would be very difficult, in both these situations, to convey the "feel" of the situation, and I can assure you that your responses (to what you believe you're hearing) are off-base. But I appreciate the attempt to give feedback, anyway.
> ...


The problems with sites like this one is that we only get one side of the story. So it's hard to know what is going on. It's not that I do not believe what you are saying. You are giving your point of view. Seldom in a marriage is one person always the bad guy and the other beyond reproach. 

We get into patterns of behavior and then we get stuck in them. There is a good series of books that talks about some of these patterns....

"The Dance of Intimacy" and "The Dance of Anger" are two of these books.

You and your wife are caught in some sort of behavior 'dance'. If one of you stops the dance, the other has to eventually stop it as well.

One of you is going to have to take the first step to stop this. Since you are the one who is here, you are the only one who we can give suggestions to.

MC is sometimes a good idea because at least that way the MC can get the perspective of both people.


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> The problems with sites like this one is that we only get one side of the story. So it's hard to know what is going on. It's not that I do not believe what you are saying. You are giving your point of view. Seldom in a marriage is one person always the bad guy and the other beyond reproach.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



^^^^ this, I agree.


----------



## greenfern (Oct 20, 2012)

I have to admit I read the description of both events the same way as EleGirl. Maybe its a female perspective? 

My partner does the 'monologue' thing and it really annoys me, although I try not to react as your wife did. We both do the passive aggressive 'joke' thing instead of just being up front and saying you know what, I need something different from you right now or that makes me feel x when you do that.


----------



## greenfern (Oct 20, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> We get into patterns of behavior and then we get stuck in them.
> ...
> 
> You and your wife are caught in some sort of behavior 'dance'. If one of you stops the dance, the other has to eventually stop it as well.


:iagree:


----------



## gskern (May 26, 2014)

drerio said:


> I'm just curious do you have any hobbies or activities/organizations that you are part of outside of your home environment?


Yes to all three...


----------



## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

The problem is he only wants to hear from GUYS as he stated in his first post. Probably because they know his wife much better than any female poster could.


----------



## gskern (May 26, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> The problems with sites like this one is that we only get one side of the story. So it's hard to know what is going on. It's not that I do not believe what you are saying. You are giving your point of view. Seldom in a marriage is one person always the bad guy and the other beyond reproach.
> 
> We get into patterns of behavior and then we get stuck in them. There is a good series of books that talks about some of these patterns....
> 
> ...


"Seldom" is the key word there. But it is completely possible that one generally DOES have the right Attitude, and the other does, for the most part, have a rotten Attitude.

And the idea that "if one begins to do the right thing (or "stop the dance") the other will eventually follow" is also a very very subjective, works-for-some-situations idea...

There are other situations where one is so profoundly LOCKED ONTO this "Blame" idea -- blaming the other one for their OWN lack of effort -- that nothing short of intervention-style Confrontation will crack that shell...

Ours is that situation.

The few times that my wife has come to me to say, "there's this thing - something I'm bothered about - that I want to discuss with you", she has gotten EXCELLENT Listening Skills and a very Receptive Heart from her husband.

When I try to do that - no matter HOW I try to do that - World War 3. When I do ANYTHING, anything at all, on my own -- from trying to share thoughts with her, to joking, to initiating sexual contact, to even *praying* around her! -- AT BEST, she pushes back, turns to stone, and acts like she's being "put upon" when I express myself; AT WORST, she criticizes, attacks, tears me down, and goes into "EFF YOU" mode, which often lasts a week or more...

So again, to be clear: That's HER "dance", not mine.
Until her "BLAME" Mentality is cracked open, and until she has that "Aha" moment leading to a totally changed Attitude, this will continue...


----------



## greenfern (Oct 20, 2012)

Blondilocks said:


> The problem is he only wants to hear from GUYS as he stated in his first post. Probably because they know his wife much better than any female poster could.


Oh well ok actually I guess the first post was not even asking for advice on how to improve the marriage but how to take care of his needs without relying on his wife to do so.

I'm not a man but I do have a similar issue in my relationship - my partner relies on me a huge amount to fulfill his needs. His needs are also really really big (not saying yours are)! It would consume huge amounts of my time and energy, at the expense of taking care of myself, to take care of him as he needs.

So, he is trying to figure out how to make himself more fulfilled internally than relying on something external. Its a work in progress. But maybe if your wife finds you needy but has a hard time expressing what exactly is needy about you then perhaps you need to look internally and see what you are relying on her for that you shouldn't be?

I don't know how you can "rely on yourself" for sexual satisfaction though and I doubt you can find a way to do that without going outside the marriage so you better divorce if that is what you want to do.


----------



## greenfern (Oct 20, 2012)

Is your wife in general a pretty unhappy person? Does she behave like this with everyone or just you?


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

gskern said:


> Yes to all three...



Do you get satisfaction out of these activities? I can only speak for me and relate it to what I'm reading in your posts and don't know everything there is to know about your situation. So consider my suggestions in light of my comments below.

I don't look to my wife to fill all my needs. That is I get a great deal of satisfaction from spending time writing and playing music in my home studio. Or jamming with friends. Or working out with my sons. Or coaching (son's football team), etc. These things my wife is not part of my life. What it does it leave us with opportunities to build our relationship on those things special to us, while each of us find things important to us personally. It does not take away from our relationship and in some ways strengthens it. 

Understand, that this may not pertain to you.


----------



## gskern (May 26, 2014)

greenfern said:


> Oh well ok actually I guess the first post was not even asking for advice on how to improve the marriage but how to take care of his needs without relying on his wife to do so.
> 
> I'm not a man but I do have a similar issue in my relationship - my partner relies on me a huge amount to fulfill his needs. His needs are also really really big (not saying yours are)! It would consume huge amounts of my time and energy, at the expense of taking care of myself, to take care of him as he needs.
> 
> ...


Couple of things here:

1. Just because I didn't ask for advice, HERE, on how to improve the marriage doesn't mean I'm not seeking that advice other places... Not saying you're accusing me of that, just thought I'd make that point...

2. Without going into a whole "thing" here, the essence of True Love (contrary to pop culture's view) is *precisely* that idea that sometimes loving well comes at our own expense... to love Sacrificially means, Yes, sometimes you'll make sacrifices, and sometimes it'll hurt... 

3. Even *IF* my "Needs" were imposing and overwhelming to her, wouldn't you agree that a truly LOVING response would be to have a number of kind, tender conversations, calm talks, with one's spouse about those things, and maybe even proposing Counseling for that person... clearly conveying "I love you deeply!!" even as you are saying " I love you -- and our marriage -- so much that I would like to get this 'Needs' situation addressed so we can flourish"... ??

When 2 people share the Attitude that says, "I am here for YOU, to be a blessing to YOU, primarily, and then, to enjoy being loved by, being blessed by, YOU, also..." and when they're both ready and able and willing to do the WORK that Marriage requires, they can almost always enjoy a strong and happy marriage.

When one or both WILL NOT do that -- do NOT have that Attitude -- it simply Will.Not.Work. Period.


----------



## greenfern (Oct 20, 2012)

gskern said:


> "Seldom" is the key word there. But it is completely possible that one generally DOES have the right Attitude, and the other does, for the most part, have a rotten Attitude.
> 
> And the idea that "if one begins to do the right thing (or "stop the dance") the other will eventually follow" is also a very very subjective, works-for-some-situations idea...
> 
> ...


It sounds like you are both pretty entrenched in your roles in the relationship. 

Until someone steps out of it - and you can only control yourself - it will continue status quo. I suspect no matter what advice you get on attempting to fulfill yourself outside your relationship you will be unhappy until something changes or you leave. Or she leaves, sounds like nobody is particularly happy here. I can't imagine living 20 years in this gridlock.


----------



## gskern (May 26, 2014)

greenfern said:


> Is your wife in general a pretty unhappy person? Does she behave like this with everyone or just you?


She would say that it's only this marriage that is the bad part of her life... And well no, she doesn't behave like this with everyone (though she does have a general penchant for complaining and griping about things)... But then, she's not married to anyone else; marriage is its own animal.


----------



## gskern (May 26, 2014)

greenfern said:


> It sounds like you are both pretty entrenched in your roles in the relationship.
> 
> Until someone steps out of it - and you can only control yourself - it will continue status quo. I suspect no matter what advice you get on attempting to fulfill yourself outside your relationship you will be unhappy until something changes or you leave. Or she leaves, sounds like nobody is particularly happy here. I can't imagine living 20 years in this gridlock.


The terms "entrenched" and "gridlock" imply Inflexibility on both sides. Not so. I am more than willing to consider her concerns, to respond to what she says bothers her, to listen, to ask forgiveness when needed, to love her well (or try to anyway) despite not receiving Love in return, etc. etc... No entrenchment on my side!


----------



## greenfern (Oct 20, 2012)

gskern said:


> Couple of things here:
> 
> 1. Just because I didn't ask for advice, HERE, on how to improve the marriage doesn't mean I'm not seeking that advice other places... Not saying you're accusing me of that, just thought I'd make that point...
> 
> ...


I'm sorry I keep replying with my own examples but part of me sees me as your wife in 20 years (not literally!) if my relationship stays as it is. I have poor boundaries and tend to give too much into my relationships. Every once in a while, say couple months, I freak out and say NO MORE. I can't give anything else. Then I relax, continue on the cycle but its shorter and shorter each time. After 20 years I would probably be a complete shrew. 

In short I disagree with point 2. If someone is overly needy in a relationship it, by definition, means they are not giving very much. If my SO's needs continue to be "overwhelming and imposing" I will leave, because I can't live like that.


----------



## gskern (May 26, 2014)

greenfern said:


> I'm sorry I keep replying with my own examples but part of me sees me as your wife in 20 years (not literally!) if my relationship stays as it is. I have poor boundaries and tend to give too much into my relationships. Every once in a while, say couple months, I freak out and say NO MORE. I can't give anything else. Then I relax, continue on the cycle but its shorter and shorter each time. After 20 years I would probably be a complete shrew.
> 
> In short I disagree with point 2. If someone is overly needy in a relationship it, by definition, means they are not giving very much. If my SO's needs continue to be "overwhelming and imposing" I will leave, because I can't live like that.


greenfern,
Perhaps I wasn't very clear with my point #2:
While on the one hand, I don't buy this very "trendy" axiom that says "there have to be Boundaries in marriage" (way to easy to use the idea of "boundaries" as a way to stay in one's comfort zone, and True Love calls us OUT of our comfort zone), I didn't say that you should just learn to live with an "insatiable black hole" of "Needs", if in fact your spouse is that way.

I said that as a productive way of DEALING with that, SO THAT you both can move on to a stronger and happier phase of your relationship, you have some very loving and tender and calm discussions with him about where you are on his "Needs". If you need the help of a counselor -- either to help you see that his "Needs" should not be quite so onerous to you, OR, to team up with you (so to speak) to approach HIM and try to get him to listen, and to get help -- then do that.

It's not Either/Or, it's Both/And ...


----------



## gskern (May 26, 2014)

intheory said:


> =========================================
> 
> 
> *Does your wife "yield" to you. Doesn't sound like it.*
> ...



inTheory:

To address your points:

1. I cannot think of any way in which she "yields" to me, not genuinely; if she ever does, she is sure to point it out, as if there is some kind of "for credit" accounting going on...

2. I'm not sure if Jesus meant for people to suffer all their lives, but I'm very sure that our own personal "Happiness" is not his primary goal for us... If this suffering produces Sanctification, it is worth every minute... God will not ask me, "were you happy?" He will ask, "were you faithful"... I realize how much like Masochism that sounds, but it is a deeper reality of Christian spirituality that even many Christians miss (or reject, a la the whole Joel Osteen crowd)...

3. On the point about Submission: When the Bible talks about submission, it is talking about "preferring one another", or Deference, not, as you correctly put, "cowering"... And yes, Christian Men and Women ARE to be "submitting" to each other in THAT sense (what is sometimes called "mutual submission"), as Brothers and Sisters, even before the Marriage conversation starts... 

But to answer your question, most emphatically NO. Listen to me? Absolutely NOT. Co-operate? No. Do I do those things, toward her? Absolutely, and I can point up specific instances, ones which even she admits, that I do. Indeed, I listen to her almost daily, and I listen WELL, as she talks about whatever is on her mind.

I too pray that I will not be bitter nor full of regret 20 years from now; but not because I found someone else, but because either (a) God has broken her heart and opened her eyes, or (b) He has helped me learn to look past Marriage and toward Eternal things (that has already begun to happen, and the past week has been something of a revival in that aspect)...

Or maybe both.


----------



## FormerSelf (Apr 21, 2013)

"...a double-minded man is unstable in all his ways..."

People here are giving EXCELLENT advice. Don't get so wrapped up in image...and looking like the blameless saint...that you aren't looking in the mirror. STOP TRYING TO CHANGE YOUR WIFE. She is not the problem. The problem is YOU.

You are here to try to show us how your wife is in the wrong, how she is the villain in the situation...and we don't see it. Yes, her rudeness and contempt towards you is UNACCEPTABLE behavior, but that sort of behavior doesn't develop in a vacuum. This is the fruit of what you have planted...and what the others are saying here is that YOU ARE THE ONE who is going to need to change if you have any hopes of seeing a change in your wife.

She will honor you if you are boldly honest (in love) and be clear and concise about your needs. SHE IS PINING SEXUALLY for that man...not a guy who begs for sexual crumbs, who is afraid to tell her HE'S PISSED, who passively aggressively "jokes" about things that bother him. She wants a man who knows what he wants and TAKES it. She wants a man who will call her on her crappy behavior, saying "This is unacceptable, I WILL NOT be talked to this way."...without whining, yelling, blowing up, or holding grudges. I'm not talking about abuse, what nice guys fear...no, I'm talking about masculinity...what SHE LONG FOR...and if she gets that from you, then she will ready to tear off her clothes, your clothes, the bedsheets, the drapes, and her hair.

Don't be a double-minded man...be intentional about what you want and what you ask God for, what you ask of your wife, what you ask of your life.

No More Mr. Nice Guy

http://www.getmoreintimacy.com/


----------



## tdwal (Jul 28, 2012)

gskern said:


> EleGirl,
> 
> I must not be making myself clear to you. Language is a funny thing and sometimes people hear the same things very differently.
> 
> ...



Man did you come here for help or to try to convince us it's all her fault and your a little angel. You may not like what your hearing but you came here asking for advice but it appears only the advice you want to hear.

You know what I think, you came here angry and wanting to vent and spar with people here. Good luck.


----------



## gskern (May 26, 2014)

tdwal said:


> Man did you come here for help or to try to convince us it's all her fault and your a little angel. You may not like what your hearing but you came here asking for advice but it appears only the advice you want to hear.
> 
> You know what I think, you came here angry and wanting to vent and spar with people here. Good luck.



I didn't come here seeking Marriage advice, nor abuse. People asked questions, I answered. Then I get thumped for my answers?? Even if I am the problem (or part of it), could that consideration not be posed more like a Question instead of a Hammer?? Thank you to those who've offered constructive ideas in supportive ways.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## gskern (May 26, 2014)

intheory said:


> gskern,
> 
> I'm just responding to you. I'm not trying to second guess what your wife's motivations are; she's not the one posting here.
> 
> ...


inTheory,

Thank you again for more good Feedback and Input.

Yes, my wife is free to talk as long as, and about whatever, she chooses... She often comes home and shares with me how her day at work went, and it often goes on 15, 20, 25 minutes or more, with very little from me except attentive listening and as much Support as I can convey to her...

And on the Sex thing: As I've noted, it's very good - even great - when SHE is the one doing the approaching, the initiating... But when I do it, that's when she turns on that "resistance" feeling toward me, or, at worst, turns to stone and just "waits until I'm done"... I can't tell you how unsatisfying and disappointing that is... And of course, trying to talk to her about it, ASK her about it, produces nothing but more hostility...

You're right, masturbation isn't a very acceptable substitute, though I don't reject it outright.

We are in fact going to a Christian Couples Therapist, but not much progress there, yet... We'll see...

Yes, you're right, there has been some excellent Input given to my *original* post -- including yours, brother -- so I'll take those things and think about them a lot.

Thank you very much!
GS


----------



## gskern (May 26, 2014)

FormerSelf said:


> "...a double-minded man is unstable in all his ways..."
> 
> People here are giving EXCELLENT advice. Don't get so wrapped up in image...and looking like the blameless saint...that you aren't looking in the mirror. STOP TRYING TO CHANGE YOUR WIFE. She is not the problem. The problem is YOU.
> 
> ...



FormerSelf,

Thank you for your Input. I'm sorry I didn't Reply over the weekend; I was actually trying to get some other stuff done and only going back to the computer from time to time... Am only just now really digging into your Post...

A quick point: I am NOT "here to try to show us how your wife is in the wrong"...  I only posted here to ask for some Tips about Self-Care, from Guys who, for one reason or another, find themselves "alone" (either married or single)... That's it. All the pertinent details about my marriage situation were shared at the request of others. I did not volunteer them and I didn't come here to "whine" or "spar", as others have suggested.

Now, that being said:
I'm reading your site and reading your PDF this morning, and I like them both. I'll continue reading, and I'm particularly looking for any sections you've written that will help me think and act in these ways and yet NOT be a totally dominating A-hole toward my wife (and pretty much everyone around me). I'm sure that's *not* what you mean, by what you've written, so I'll be looking particularly for those sections along the lines of, "here's how ya do it"...

Thank you for these Resources.
GS


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Treat yourself with self respect. When she spits venom say: "I am not okay with rudeness."

State it clearly, looking her in the eye and then go somewhere else.

Don't be a doormat.

And you must consider divorce. If you are being abused, that is a form of spiritual suicide to accept it for decades.


----------



## gskern (May 26, 2014)

FormerSelf said:


> "...a double-minded man is unstable in all his ways..."
> 
> Don't be a double-minded man...be intentional about what you want and what you ask God for, what you ask of your wife, what you ask of your life.
> 
> ...


FormerSelf:
I have one or two very quick questions about the thoughts and materials presented on your Site; do you have an email address we can communicate with, or would you prefer that I just call you direct, using that number on your Site? Or, if you want, we can just keep writing, here...

Thanks --


----------



## Shooboomafoo (Mar 30, 2011)

Was it different at first? Did you see some of these projection traits early on in the relationship from her? Your description of what your wife acts like fits a lot of how mine acted throughout the last decade of our relationship. My attempts at true issue related- respectful communication about anything were met with stonewalling, blame, lack of any self reflection, all to the point of eventually being called "whiny" and "needy", which does nothing to support my desire to work out the things that were making my love for her completely miserable and empty. 
I'm not sure when it was that the advances of another man via myspace started to get her attention and response, but it sure did widen the gap between us. At that point, there was nothing to fight for. Nothing to make any attempts to work out. It was just "me" thinking issues needed working on, and she was already on another whole planet, with her and her OM.

Prior to her cheating and ruining our family, sex was controlled by her, despite my attempts at working it out. The only option was divorce if I wanted that to change. That was the only option left.
Counseling was a joke, there was no response to it.
The perpetuation and assurance of our financial devastation long prior to retirement was met with the same childish attitude towards it. It was as if nothing was bigger or more important than herself, and that came from something really bad happening to her in her past, that she never got help for, or at least those efforts were not fruitful.

I don't believe that God intends on us having a miserable marriage. He is the most wise, and knows the hearts and minds of every person involved. I chose to stick it out on those merits, thinking that my word was going to mean something... so I didn't understand it when another man or two was able to get involved and lead to a divorce; unless He was pulling me out of that miserable life, and rescuing me from someone that had something wrong with them. 
She's still taking her Xanax as far as I know, and is a completely different person, not better mind you,, just different. A stranger. 

I don't speak to her unless it is an urgent matter regarding the kid, otherwise, the time I had with her was enough negativity and esteem destroying for 3 lifetimes. 

Don't get caught up in a situation where you continue to think it is YOU that has to change and make corrections towards the marriage, because only time goes by. The reward for that is LOST TIME with someone that is wrapped up in themselves and careless about their marriage. 

I don't know where your wife or my ex received their "life training", but obviously the part about how good a marriage "could be" was never included in their instruction... 

Man I cant tell you how many countless hours I sat out in my garage just miserable, but I Wasn't going to get divorced, that was against my beliefs. Things would have been different if there was not a child involved.


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

"They probably don't know or appreciate the depth and breadth of the problem; part of my wife's "Screw Him!" Attitude is that she then turns and acts all "happy cheerful Buddy" to the kids, to give them the impression that her husband is over in the corner being miserable "by himself", and why don't you two and me just have laughs together and not worry about him and his "problems"... Just plain Evil, but I can't control her beliefs or behaviors..."

I suspect there is very little about your relationship with your wife that isn't crystal clear to your kids. They know what disrespect looks like. Patience and tolerance are laudable traits, but it is just as important to learn what one should never tolerate. Serial disrespect should never be tolerated, especially in one's own home. Love does not exist without respect. Unless you are in an environment where you are free to exist as a respected adult your kids have never really even met you and they certainly don't know the complete, confident, man you could be, the one you are supposed to be, the one you were created to be. Stay in that situation long enough and you won't even know who you really are.


----------



## gskern (May 26, 2014)

Shooboomafoo said:


> Was it different at first? Did you see some of these projection traits early on in the relationship from her? Your description of what your wife acts like fits a lot of how mine acted throughout the last decade of our relationship.
> 
> Don't get caught up in a situation where you continue to think it is YOU that has to change and make corrections towards the marriage, because only time goes by. The reward for that is LOST TIME with someone that is wrapped up in themselves and careless about their marriage.
> 
> ...



ShooBoomafoo:

Thank you for your input.

Things were bad nearly from the very start; she pointed the finger at my bad behavior -- yes I've made some mistakes, handled lots of things badly -- and quickly USED those things as her "rationale" for "checking out" of the marriage (this she freely admits to, even now)... There have been *periods* of seeming closeness, and we have had lots of times (like finding a new restaurant together) where things "seem" to be going well...

At any rate, these Inputs here are very very good. Lots to think about. Thanks again for sharing, friend.


----------



## gskern (May 26, 2014)

unbelievable said:


> "Unless you are in an environment where you are free to exist as a respected adult your kids have never really even met you...".




Thanks for these great thoughts, unbelievable.
Again, lots to think about, here. I really appreciate your taking time to post.


----------



## Shooboomafoo (Mar 30, 2011)

Hmm.. Scorecard keeper... "ace up the sleeve" with something you've done... highly manipulative.. this woman does not seem like she's matured a whole lot past the "self is all that matters in this life" phase...


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

I was in a very similar situation for many years. I conned myself into believing I was being a good husband and father because I put up with it. It eventually got to the point where my kids lost respect for me. I kicked the controlling bat to the curb and now she is master of all she surveys (nothing). My relationship with my kids instantly improved. No one can love someone they can't respect. It is my obligation to train my kids and my personal example is my most powerful teaching instrument. I would not approve of them living the way I allowed myself to live, so it was my duty to change things. Being a controlling bat, there was no "change" in my ex, so had to put her on the curb. My decision came right around 9/11/01. Watching those folks in the twin towers die made me realize life is fleeting and precious. Waiting for crap to change isn't an option. You don't know if you have 50 years or 50 hours left on this earth. I hope you choose to live as a complete, respected, human adult for whatever time God has seen fit to allocate to you. You were not created in His image to be someone's object of disdain or ridicule or to be exploited.


----------



## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

gskern said:


> I'm posting to the "Guys" forum because I'd like replies back from GUYS in my situation...
> 
> It's pretty simple, really: My wife of 20 years has never, and does not/will not now, put her Heart into our relationship... Will not make a personal choice, a personal commitment, to do everything she herself can do to build her marriage...
> 
> ...


Is staying in this marriage a requirement?

If yes...then you won't get your needs met unless your wife has a huge wake up call with major changes from you.

If divorce is an option...put on the table what you need or that this farce of a marriage is over. You've wasted 20 years why waste 21?


----------



## Jung_admirer (Jun 26, 2013)

You can pickup a copy of this book for about $4 (used) at Amazon: 

Amazon.com: Fear of Intimacy (9781557987204): Robert W. Firestone, Joyce Catlett: Books

Firestone's book discusses the sources of fear of intimacy. Your DW's behavior is highly defensive ... you might see some of the patterns in the vignettes presented in this book. Knowledge gained from the book won't resolve the issues ... (that will require IC and MC), but it will help you gain an understanding. This understanding can form the basis of patient compassion or deliberate uncoupling.


----------



## gskern (May 26, 2014)

unbelievable said:


> I hope you choose to live as a complete, respected, human adult for whatever time God has seen fit to allocate to you. You were not created in His image to be someone's object of disdain or ridicule or to be exploited.


unbelievable,

Thanks for another great post.
I should stress that I do NOT feel myself to be a poor, picked-on, "Nice Guy who just wants to be loved" type... On the other hand, it's probably true that I HAVE let this thing "get to me", to discourage me, and I need to let go of the fact that it's a puzzle I've unsuccessfully struggled to "solve" for 20 years. (I'm an INTJ, if that means anything).

Honestly, the real deal is this:
I play hockey. I like to smoke cigars and I like to drink beer. I'm not afraid of much. I work out. I don't wear my feelings on my sleeve and I have a tendency toward an "I don't give a F---" attitude, which I try to balance by finding way to serve other people. I cut the grass, I pay the bills, I try to hang with my kids. I'm thankful, grateful, appreciative and considerate. I like Jazz and Classical and some thumping metal occasionally...

But I've obviously missed the Memo on this marriage thing.
So I hear what you're saying, and I'm full of thoughts today... Full of thoughts.

THANK YOU. Really.


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

If she's been checked out for 20 years the way you describe, she has probably cheated. Either EA or PA. Those are grounds even for a strict Fundamentalist Christian to get divorced.

She made vows which included numerous things. Her vows were not limited to "I won't have sex outside of my marriage". 

She vowed "To Have and To Hold", which means she vowed to have sex with you, and to provide physical and emotional support. That is, she vowed to hug, snuggle, hold hands, sit closely, and spend time with you. She vowed to listen to you, to sympathize with you, to empathize with you, to offer you verbal affirmations, to offer you helpful suggestions, and to be there for you in difficult times.

1Cor7 requires her (and you) to provide a satisfying sexual relationship within the marriage.

She vowed "Forsaking All Others". Note the word "ALL". That means your marriage relationship is primary in her life (except God if she is strongly religious). She vowed to put you before herself! You come before her best girl friends, your kids, her parents, her boss, her career, the PTA, pulling weeds in the garden, and before watching TV.

She vowed some version of "To Love, Honor, and Cherish". This requires she be honest, sincere, attentive, and concerned about you.

So has she lived up to the vows she made in church? If not, wouldn't that be grounds for divorce?


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Is there any history of child sex abuse or teen rape in her past?


----------



## gskern (May 26, 2014)

Thor said:


> So has she lived up to the vows she made in church? If not, wouldn't that be grounds for divorce?



Thor, 
You're absolutely right about everything you've written here. Total agreement, from a Matter-of-Fact standpoint.

But 2 things:

1. Some of these other postings have gotten me to think (as I have done from time to time over the years) that maybe there is some way I myself need to do things differently, to get the relationship I want... It's not a matter of "caving in" or being a wuss or whipped or anything... it's about being SMART about how I move and act and speak in this relationship... So I'm pondering that at the moment...

2. Even though I do have justification for divorce -- Abandonment, or Emotional Infidelity, or however one can describe the idea -- that's not what I want. I truly love her, not in a "weak", dependent way, but in a True Love, "til-death-parts-us" way... I hope and pray things can change, so I'll keep working on it. Divorce is always an option, of course, but I've not quite come to the point of pulling that rip-cord, yet... Maybe I will who knows...


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Humans must justify all their behaviors to themselves, so whether one is a dutiful husband, a valiant warrior, a child molester, a dictator, a husband who tolerates disrespect, or a hateful bat of a wife, each is doing what is right or justifiable in their own mind. What "feels" right can't be our standard for what "is" right because we are all capable of making anything seem right to ourselves.


----------



## gskern (May 26, 2014)

Thor said:


> Is there any history of child sex abuse or teen rape in her past?



An incident here and there of Molestation, by family members and by high school boys... But no strictly-defined "abuse" and certainly no Rape, as far as I know...

That stuff may have something to do with it. Another part of it is this very very deep "streak" she has in her -- which she got from her mother -- to criticize, nit-pick, and tear down other people if you truly believe your observation about their negative qualities is True... That plus the whole "never trust a Man" thing that her Mom bred into her....


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Molestation is sexual abuse. If it happened before puberty it is worse.

And to be very clear, abuse is defined by the victim. I know a woman who experienced something which in many cultures would be normal and without any negative effects, but for her the context was such that she has all the same trauma as someone who experienced something very bad.

In any case, you are now a Secondary Survivor of Child Sex Abuse. Welcome to the club you never wanted to know even existed. Her actions as you've described them are consistent with CSA. That's how I knew to ask if there was any history.

She's not going to change until she gets good trauma therapy for the abuse. Her view of sex and sexuality is dysfunctional. Her view of what constitutes a normal close emotional relationship is dysfunctional. 

One factor with family molestation is that YOU are family. When you were dating you were just some guy. Nothing important really, in that she could dump you and be done with you. She may have learned that sexuality got her something she wanted, and so she was ok with sexuality prior to getting married. Other women react by becoming prudish. Either way, once she marries you, you crossed the line from being an outsider to being a family member. Because her molesters were male family members, you now are in that same category. Emotionally for her, you became one of the dangerous males.

If she can control the sex she can deal with it. But if you initiate it, and especially if it is at an unexpected time, she can react negatively emotionally.

My wife for example can only deal with sex at 10 pm on a Saturday night. A glass of wine helps her a lot too. She steadfastly refuses morning sex and has informed me it will never ever happen. I presume her CSA happened at least once in the early morning.

Sorry you're in this club.

I suspect her mom was molested, too.


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

unbelievable said:


> I was in a very similar situation for many years. I conned myself into believing I was being a good husband and father because I put up with it. It eventually got to the point where my kids lost respect for me. I kicked the controlling bat to the curb and now she is master of all she surveys (nothing). My relationship with my kids instantly improved. No one can love someone they can't respect. It is my obligation to train my kids and my personal example is my most powerful teaching instrument. I would not approve of them living the way I allowed myself to live, so it was my duty to change things. Being a controlling bat, there was no "change" in my ex, so had to put her on the curb. My decision came right around 9/11/01. Watching those folks in the twin towers die made me realize life is fleeting and precious. Waiting for crap to change isn't an option. You don't know if you have 50 years or 50 hours left on this earth. I hope you choose to live as a complete, respected, human adult for whatever time God has seen fit to allocate to you. You were not created in His image to be someone's object of disdain or ridicule or to be exploited.


This is it, great post.

Become the best you can be, stop tolerating BS, and people will respect you.

Invite those that you love to join you on your journey to having an awesome life, and if they choose to join you, great.

If they don't, there's the door (excluding children of course). 

There will be no end of awesome people that choose to walk your path with you if you allow it.

Life is too short.


----------



## Csquare (Jan 14, 2014)

Sounds like you don't want to bail on your marriage and that there are times when things are going well. 

Thor's post about CSA may give you insight on what might really be going on in your wife's mind. She sounds a little hot/cold Dr. Jekyll-Mr. Hyde-ish. I've read that victims of sexual abuse compartmentalize in order to separate themselves from the abuse and can often take on split personalities - depending on if they are triggering.

Not sure what advice to give, but I suspect the more you understand what is the true nature of her issue, the better your strategies for creating a good outcome.


----------



## gskern (May 26, 2014)

Yes, csquare and thor, 

Thanks for that additional insight. I'll definitely check into that, as part of a new "strategy" or "plan" or "approach" that this Thread is helping me to understand...

I really appreciate everyone's input. I have already learned quite a bit here, and now its time to go and dig into this stuff and ponder it and let it "bake" for awhile...

BTW, "compartmentalize" is a word she DOES use sometimes! Very ironic.


----------



## FormerSelf (Apr 21, 2013)

gskern said:


> FormerSelf:
> I have one or two very quick questions about the thoughts and materials presented on your Site; do you have an email address we can communicate with, or would you prefer that I just call you direct, using that number on your Site? Or, if you want, we can just keep writing, here...
> 
> Thanks --


gskern...it's not my material...I just posted some links FYI.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

gskern said:


> I'm posting to the "Guys" forum because I'd like replies back from GUYS in my situation...
> 
> It's pretty simple, really: My wife of 20 years has never, and does not/will not now, put her Heart into our relationship... Will not make a personal choice, a personal commitment, to do everything she herself can do to build her marriage...
> 
> ...


I am not a guy. I don't even play one on tc. Nor did I stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night. The short answer is, you don't. It is a shame you wasted 20 years with this person.


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Understanding her past should help with her understanding and healing. Should she choose to pursue this course.

However, should she choose to not pursue this course, her choice should then be simple:

a) let someone else fill this role in your life for her
b) release you gracefully from your commitment
c) re-think not pursuing this course of action

Her damage does not equal you living an unfulfilling life.


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

marduk said:


> Understanding her past should help with her understanding and healing.
> .
> .
> .
> Her damage does not equal you living an unfulfilling life.


Those are two critical points for gskern to really take in and believe.

She is responsible for recognizing she has issues, and she is responsible as an adult to seek whatever kind of support is necessary to overcome the issues. Nobody else can fix her. We might give her some good information and support to help her get kick started. For example, when my wife told me she had been abused as a child I said twice in that conversation that some people find greater peace with professional trauma therapy. I never said she needed therapy, nor did I say I wanted her to go to therapy. But I planted the seed in her mind.

The root cause is *irrelevant* to everyone but her. What matters is whether she brings herself as a mentally healthy partner into the marriage. Whatever the real causes are, and whatever the real things are going on in her mind, it is up to her to address them. If she needs some kind of support from her husband (or others) it is up to her to ask for what she needs.

This is a tough one for the Secondary. We love our spouse and we want them to find happiness. We want them to find a way to overcome their anxieties and unpleasant emotional experiences triggered by the trauma. We understand they are not choosing to be selfish or nasty, rather they experienced terrible things which left this residue they don't really understand. We wouldn't feel badly towards them if they had a bad knee due to an accident, and so we cannot feel badly towards them for being the victim of abuse.

Yet we do have the right to expect them to make strong efforts to grow and become the best person they can. We should expect to be treated well by them. Just because they were mistreated does not give them a perpetual right to mistreat their spouse. Especially once they become aware that they have issues, they have the responsibility to work at overcoming those issues.

We as Secondaries have to be supportive and understanding, yet we have to insist on our needs being met too. If she is unwilling or unable to make sufficient changes then the husband has every right to pursue his own life without her.


----------



## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

gskern said:


> drerio,
> You're assuming I'm just now doing anything about it. Absolutely false. Have tried many things over the years, nothing has yet broken through her belligerent, stone-hearted "EFF YOU" Attitude.
> 
> When SHE is in an amorous frame of mind (it comes and goes), sure, we do lots of things together... and enjoy good sex ... and do things as a family... but as soon as I make it known what *I* would like, or what might be on MY mind, or bothering ME, oh man... It's nuclear winter around here...


I thought her default mode was an "EFF YOU" attitude and that you where not having sex. That you where trying to find ways to get that sort of intimate and closeness attention without cheating. That you really prefer not to cheat.

My idea was Ballroom Dance, Salsa or Country dancing. Were you'd be partnered up with friendly folks, people who want to be next to you. It will feel good and be good for your mojo and swagger, and you don't have to cheat to do it.

Plus most people don't like their spouse having too much fun with the opposite sex like this so it will up their ante.

I dunno. But if she is really checked out the relationship and it's been a drain on you for twenty ( 20 ? ) years, I'd probably gotten out.


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Csquare said:


> Sounds like you don't want to bail on your marriage and that there are times when things are going well.
> 
> Thor's post about CSA may give you insight on what might really be going on in your wife's mind. She sounds a little hot/cold Dr. Jekyll-Mr. Hyde-ish. I've read that victims of sexual abuse compartmentalize in order to separate themselves from the abuse and can often take on split personalities - depending on if they are triggering.
> 
> Not sure what advice to give, but I suspect the more you understand what is the true nature of her issue, the better your strategies for creating a good outcome.


Yup, agreed, I've seen this too (not in my marriage but with people I know).

Part of the only way out of it successfully that I've seen (and I'm not a shrink) is for the spouse to realize that what happened to the other person is not their fault, and they don't have to live a crappy life as an outcome of what happened before they were married.

I've seen a guy sit there for decades unhappy because of near-zero and extremely bad sex because he discovered (after they were married of course) that she was molested as a teen (horrible) and now she "didn't like sex and never has."

Eventually he realized that he could be compassionate, kind, supportive until the cows came home but he didn't want to live a sexless life and it was unfair of her to expect him to.

And that she basically deceived him into marriage (they were having a lot of sex before).

He stood up for himself. Made plans to exit as gracefully as he could.

Only then did she decide to seek help for it and start to get better.

Sex life is still not good, but it at least exists and she is at least trying.

For him that seems to make all the difference.


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

marduk said:


> Yup, agreed, I've seen this too (not in my marriage but with people I know).
> 
> Part of the only way out of it successfully that I've seen (and I'm not a shrink) is for the spouse to realize that what happened to the other person is not their fault, and they don't have to live a crappy life as an outcome of what happened before they were married.
> 
> ...


:iagree: x10,000,000

*Why* she is the way she is doesn't matter. The *way* she is towards her husband in the marriage is _everything_. The husband has to be very alert to avoid getting drawn into trying to _fix her_ and thus perpetually giving her an excuse to continue passing her abuse onto him.

I have this image in my mind of a black lightning bolt reaching out through time and blasting me from 45 years ago. My wife's abuser(s) have also brought evil onto me and my kids via the abuse my wife suffered. While my wife is not the one who caused all of this, she does have the responsibility to work hard to break free of the trauma.

The job of the Secondary is to enable the healing, not enable perpetual avoidance of the difficult recovery.


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Think about it this way.

Let's say as the husband you were victimized by a horrible crime and were physically or emotionally or mentally unable to enjoy, want, or desire sex.

Would you expect your wife to have a sexless life?

Would you still try to have some kind of sex life with your wife even if it was just for her happiness?

If you didn't try, would you be surprised if your wife eventually cheated or left you?

Why would this be different if the roles were reversed?

Because we want and are expected to be white knights, that's why.


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

marduk said:


> Think about it this way.
> 
> Let's say as the husband you were victimized by a horrible crime and were physically or emotionally or mentally unable to enjoy, want, or desire sex.
> 
> ...


To add onto what you wrote, imagine a doctor told you there was this therapy which would greatly reduce the effects of this accident. In fact it is fairly well known that this therapy exists for these kinds of accident victims, and someone has mentioned it to you. The therapy isn't easy, but it does work.

Would you be a negligent husband if you refused to take on this therapy at the request of your wife? Would your wife be making a reasonable decision to leave you if you refused to try this therapy?


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Thor said:


> To add onto what you wrote, imagine a doctor told you there was this therapy which would greatly reduce the effects of this accident. In fact it is fairly well known that this therapy exists for these kinds of accident victims, and someone has mentioned it to you. The therapy isn't easy, but it does work.
> 
> Would you be a negligent husband if you refused to take on this therapy at the request of your wife? Would your wife be making a reasonable decision to leave you if you refused to try this therapy?


_Exactly._

For some reason some men and women want to live in unicorn and rainbows land where the husband is a knight in shining armour, has no needs, will wait patiently forever, protect and nurture their spouse, take their crap, and expect less than zero in return.

Lesson learned boys.

White knight = chump.


----------



## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

gskern said:


> EleGirl,
> I must not be making myself clear to you. Language is a funny thing and sometimes people hear the same things very differently.
> 
> It would be very difficult, in both these situations, to convey the "feel" of the situation, and I can assure you that your responses (to what you believe you're hearing) are off-base. But I appreciate the attempt to give feedback, anyway.
> ...


This is an odd remark for someone to hear from someone looking for insight into women. Of course we are judgeing the situation. You are trying to let yourself off the hook for any of your marriage problems.

First of all a 5 min speech is not conversation. You may have a problem reading others reactions. She certainly let you know she didn't like it.

Your comment about the kiss bump was sarcastic. Sarcasm is an insult sugar coated with humor but its still an insult. Save sarcasam for your enemies.


----------



## P51Geo1980 (Sep 25, 2013)

gskern said:


> I'm posting to the "Guys" forum because I'd like replies back from GUYS in my situation...
> 
> It's pretty simple, really: My wife of 20 years has never, and does not/will not now, put her Heart into our relationship... Will not make a personal choice, a personal commitment, to do everything she herself can do to build her marriage...
> 
> ...


Posts like yours are why I'm so glad I chose to get divorced from my STBXW sooner instead of sticking around and hoping she would change. In my own situation, I'm dating a really lovely girl who actually likes me - we're moving along slowly, but it's nice. 

It's not to late for you, why do you want to stay with someone who doesn't appreciate you.


----------

