# what's attractive...my wife's input



## maple05

OK, so in my eternal attempt to be the man of my wife's dreams (I once was, but I let that slip), I am researching and trying to put what I've learned into practice. See "My Man Plan".

In a late night tucked in bed conversation, I asked what she thought was attractive. Here's how she responded:

"Politeness (ie being nice, upbeat, and positive)"

-and 

"Confidence"

-and also not always talking about our relationship and just doing it...

I think my research is starting to slowly understand how the female mind works in a relationship...


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## Deejo

Well that's a pretty friggin short list ...

I'll do my best to translate further.

It is virtually a lock that if you start exhibiting self-satisfaction, happiness, confidence, and pride in interests and endeavors outside the scope of your marriage, and reduce the attention you are trying to focus on your wife, she will in turn become curious about what is happening to you. 

Somewhere along the line, WE (meaning men) drank the Kool-Aid on the 'talk-it-out' piece. We opened up about our hopes, dreams, and fears.

The last one needs to be stricken from the list. Particularly if your fear revolves around losing your woman.

It is the single synergistic piece that undermines all of the other things you are trying to improve about yourself in order to be more attractive.

As the old adage goes: Deeds, not words.

If you are looking for further insight, you can check out some of the book titles in the following link:

'Man Up' Books


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## BigBadWolf

Although very noble to ask your wife's input, know this is also a two edged sword regarding sexual attraction.

TREAD LIGHTLY!

For in matters of sexual attraction, this is fundamental, that the man be his own leader in sexuality. 

For such a man to ask for his wife's opinion, this is looking very close to instead he is looking for her leadership. Where this would be great in matters of finance or childrearing or what color drapes to purchase, this is a big red flag for the sexual attraction department!

So in this, be subtle, look for her clues, and important, her REACTIONS to your initiatives.

It is better to SO SOMETHING and find out from her reaction that particular something is not so good, than to be too timid to try anything at all!

But to save time I will post what I have answered to this question last week, and perhaps in detail to be expounded on in this thread if interesting.

***********************


I will beat this drum as often as it needs to be beaten but if at ANY time a woman sex drive is not equal to her mans sex drive or exceeding it, then something is missing in the relationship.

Whatever is missing in the relationship, this piece of the puzzle, this is what this piece of the puzzle is not going to be:

It is never going to be complaining about sex, negotiating for sex, bartering for sex, doing housework for sex, being a nice guy for sex, giving flowers for sex, "being a changed man" for sex.

None of these things are going to work, so whether these things are important to you, they should not be important to you thinking it will lead to sex.

Let me ask, was it about any of these things when you and your woman first met and sex was on fire and incredible?

You don't need to answer because I already know. Of course it wasn't!

To make this simple, to (name deleted) and any other good man reading this that wonders what "the secret is to a woman" or any such thing, it is just this:


*A woman is only going to be a sexual to her man as he is making her feel.*


Do not make this any more complicated than it needs to be.


The solution, simple.

Stop doing things to make your woman feel like she is not sexually attractive.

Start doing things to make your woman feel like she is sexually attractive.


So what is hard about this? What is hard is that most men I am learning do not notice what makes a woman feel sexually attractive.


These things do not make a woman feel attractive:

Being bribed for sex.

Being desired by a man that is unwilling to stand up for himself.

Being desired by a man she doesn't respect (see above).

Being desired by a man that is unwilling to fight for her.

Being desired by a man that is not desirable to other women.

Being desired by a man that is not desirable to himself.



And these things a woman finds irrestibly attractive:

Being desired by a man that not only knows what he wants, he is willing to pursue what he wants.

Being desired by a man that not only will stand up for himself, but seems to enjoy doing so.

Being desired by a man that commands respect.

Being desired by a man that has demonstrated he willing fight for her (even if the one he is fighting IS her).

Being desired by a man that desirable to other women.

Being desired by a man that is confident and bold and comfortable with himself.



So in all this, if you are a good man not satisfied with the sex life, stop being on the first list, and start being on the second list!

I wish you well. 






maple05 said:


> OK, so in my eternal attempt to be the man of my wife's dreams (I once was, but I let that slip), I am researching and trying to put what I've learned into practice. See "My Man Plan".
> 
> In a late night tucked in bed conversation, I asked what she thought was attractive. Here's how she responded:
> 
> "Politeness (ie being nice, upbeat, and positive)"
> 
> -and
> 
> "Confidence"
> 
> -and also not always talking about our relationship and just doing it...
> 
> I think my research is starting to slowly understand how the female mind works in a relationship...


----------



## Hopeful1

Maple05, Love your Man Plan -- bravo to you for your initiative. Relationships are certainly complicated and two people must learn to "relate" in order to grow, both individually and together. My husband and I are in a mess and I really don't know what the future brings. If I had my way, we'd be moving forward and not looking back. My husband is still on the fence and questioning our future. It's very rough. At our problem's core, I truly believe is a failure to truly "relate" like we should, as well as screwed up priorities for several years on my end and a lack of "man" communications skills that I could understand as a woman. I don't think your Man Plan is just a Man Plan -- it's a Marriage Plan... something every couple should be given at marriage and something every person should strive to achieve.

As a woman, I think your wife's comments are spot on too. "Politeness" goes a long way for both parties. Common courtesy is often overlooked for the ones we love. Heck, we often treat professional colleagues and strangers with more courtesy than we treat the ones we love. Why is that??? Being nice and upbeat is critical too. Think about when your relationship first started... you were both excited to be learning about one another and were likely oozing happiness. If you'd been a downer to start, the relationship wouldn't have likely gone anywhere. Also, with all of the external stress in the world, it's CRITICAL to make your house a sanctuary for you both and your family. I've screwed this up royally for the past few years and am now doing everything I can to make amends. You both should be happy to pull in that driveway, knowing that no matter what came at you that day in the world or workplace, you've got a safe haven of support and genuine happiness at home.

Regarding confidence, it's an attractive quality in anyone. Strength begets strength -- it's both infectious and comforting. My husband radiates strength most of the time. It brings me up when I'm feeling insecure and also makes me feel safe and protected. It's another thing I've screwed up for the past few years... I let my awful job get the best of me and zap all of my confidence and self-worth. I gained 50lbs, became isolated (because I work from home), lost my previously-killer sexuality, let myself go, and became a puddle of the former rockin' woman I once was. When in the middle of it for these years, I felt trapped, stuck, under a rock...and didn't know how to get out. I'm now out and am stepping up to take all of the actions I need to do for myself. And my husband, although he's cautious to trust the changes, is certainly noticing. More than that I feel happier and prouder with myself than I have in years. I feel that I am worthy of happiness and won't let anyone or any job EVER take that from me again.

As for "talking vs. doing," I think both are critical. Doing and showing love are critical -- they make someone feel wanted and valuable. However some talking, such as expressing verbal love and actually taking some time to touch base verbally on your marriage occasionally, are also important. Most women are communicators and emotionally driven. Most need words for validation and understanding. It's a balancing act for sure.

Sorry for my wordiness. Your post really got me thinking and I'm thankful for it. Keep us updated on your insights and Man Plan experiences, please! :smthumbup:


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## candice912

Maple05,

It sounds like you need some more effective communication skills. From listening to you, she has not made it clear to you what her needs are. I know she said she wants more doing and less talking, but that doesn,t help you at all. In fact, it leaves you stumbling in the dark. I have read many relationship books, most have at least something to offer. I will tell you what the best one was, that instantly stopped a fight in its tracks and made us understand each other's needs and get your marriage back on track. 
It's called, Getting the Love You Want by Harville Hendrix, Ph.D.


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## maple05

BigBadWolf said:


> Although very noble to ask your wife's input, know this is also a two edged sword regarding sexual attraction.
> 
> TREAD LIGHTLY!
> 
> For in matters of sexual attraction, this is fundamental, that the man be his own leader in sexuality.
> 
> For such a man to ask for his wife's opinion, this is looking very close to instead he is looking for her leadership. Where this would be great in matters of finance or childrearing or what color drapes to purchase, this is a big red flag for the sexual attraction department!
> 
> So in this, be subtle, look for her clues, and important, her REACTIONS to your initiatives.
> 
> It is better to SO SOMETHING and find out from her reaction that particular something is not so good, than to be too timid to try anything at all!
> 
> But to save time I will post what I have answered to this question last week, and perhaps in detail to be expounded on in this thread if interesting.
> 
> ***********************
> 
> 
> I will beat this drum as often as it needs to be beaten but if at ANY time a woman sex drive is not equal to her mans sex drive or exceeding it, then something is missing in the relationship.
> 
> Whatever is missing in the relationship, this piece of the puzzle, this is what this piece of the puzzle is not going to be:
> 
> It is never going to be complaining about sex, negotiating for sex, bartering for sex, doing housework for sex, being a nice guy for sex, giving flowers for sex, "being a changed man" for sex.
> 
> None of these things are going to work, so whether these things are important to you, they should not be important to you thinking it will lead to sex.
> 
> Let me ask, was it about any of these things when you and your woman first met and sex was on fire and incredible?
> 
> You don't need to answer because I already know. Of course it wasn't!
> 
> To make this simple, to (name deleted) and any other good man reading this that wonders what "the secret is to a woman" or any such thing, it is just this:
> 
> 
> *A woman is only going to be a sexual to her man as he is making her feel.*
> 
> 
> Do not make this any more complicated than it needs to be.
> 
> 
> The solution, simple.
> 
> Stop doing things to make your woman feel like she is not sexually attractive.
> 
> Start doing things to make your woman feel like she is sexually attractive.
> 
> 
> So what is hard about this? What is hard is that most men I am learning do not notice what makes a woman feel sexually attractive.
> 
> 
> These things do not make a woman feel attractive:
> 
> Being bribed for sex.
> 
> Being desired by a man that is unwilling to stand up for himself.
> 
> Being desired by a man she doesn't respect (see above).
> 
> Being desired by a man that is unwilling to fight for her.
> 
> Being desired by a man that is not desirable to other women.
> 
> Being desired by a man that is not desirable to himself.
> 
> 
> 
> And these things a woman finds irrestibly attractive:
> 
> Being desired by a man that not only knows what he wants, he is willing to pursue what he wants.
> 
> Being desired by a man that not only will stand up for himself, but seems to enjoy doing so.
> 
> Being desired by a man that commands respect.
> 
> Being desired by a man that has demonstrated he willing fight for her (even if the one he is fighting IS her).
> 
> Being desired by a man that desirable to other women.
> 
> Being desired by a man that is confident and bold and comfortable with himself.
> 
> 
> 
> So in all this, if you are a good man not satisfied with the sex life, stop being on the first list, and start being on the second list!
> 
> I wish you well.


BigBadWolf,
Man, that is the most profound and useful information I have read from any posting, book, counsellor advice, or anything. 

She just wants a _HER_ man to BE A MAN!!! That's totally what she is saying in 'woman code'! If we weren't who we are in the first place, no one on earth would have ever had sex. 

Time for me to be who I used to be...

A Huge F*@$%&* Thanks!!!


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## Deejo

B.b.w f.t.w!


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## Therealbrighteyes

As a woman, I couldn't second what BBW wrote any more. Wow, awesome post.


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## Conrad

And yet, so many relationships devolve into negotiations on List #1.

We are our own worst enemies.


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## Trenton

Big Bad Wolf, didn't even know that's what I wanted as a woman but I think you are right, it is exactly what I want.


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## Mom6547

BigBadWolf said:


> For such a man to ask for his wife's opinion, this is looking very close to instead he is looking for her leadership. Where this would be great in matters of finance or childrearing or what color drapes to purchase, this is a big red flag for the sexual attraction department!
> 
> Oh My God. I am supposed to care what color DRAPES to buy?!? Eeeeeh. Happily no one in this house cares if we even HAVE drapes.
> 
> Have I mentioned how useless I think these gender stereotypes are?
> 
> ... snip a bunch of stereotypes...


----------



## marriagesucks

i agree with BIG BAD WOLF to a point. I don't agree with the "be desired by list...."

Here is my dream list...i wonder how many women can relate to this:

be desired by someone who takes reasonable care of himself and is not significantly overweight (like my husband is)

be desired by someone who absolutely adores me

be desired by someone who is kind to me and others

be desired by someone who is not selfish, a narcissist

be desired by someone who is completely committed to our relationship

be desired by someone who thinks I'm just his type of woman. e.i., I would feel insecure knowing that he just can't get rid of this "thing" he has for long legged blondes and I am a petite asian girl.

be desired by someone who likes doing things together with me because he likes my company

be desired by someone who appreciates my cultural background

be desired by someone who values my opinion and wisdom

be desired by someone who isn't necessarily a saint, but has strong values/ethical standards

be desired by someone who communicates openly about how he feels and communicates fairly when we fight. who is willing to say sorry.

be desired by someone who is financial stable or has potential to be.

be desired by someone who doesn't have addictions, anger issues or serious baggage they have to work through.


----------



## candice912

marriagesucks said:


> i agree with BIG BAD WOLF to a point. I don't agree with the "be desired by list...."
> 
> Here is my dream list...i wonder how many women can relate to this:
> 
> be desired by someone who takes reasonable care of himself and is not significantly overweight (like my husband is)
> 
> be desired by someone who absolutely adores me
> 
> be desired by someone who is kind to me and others
> 
> be desired by someone who is not selfish, a narcissist
> 
> be desired by someone who is completely committed to our relationship
> 
> be desired by someone who thinks I'm just his type of woman. e.i., I would feel insecure knowing that he just can't get rid of this "thing" he has for long legged blondes and I am a petite asian girl.
> 
> be desired by someone who likes doing things together with me because he likes my company
> 
> be desired by someone who appreciates my cultural background
> 
> be desired by someone who values my opinion and wisdom
> 
> be desired by someone who isn't necessarily a saint, but has strong values/ethical standards
> 
> be desired by someone who communicates openly about how he feels and communicates fairly when we fight. who is willing to say sorry.
> 
> be desired by someone who is financial stable or has potential to be.
> 
> be desired by someone who doesn't have addictions, anger issues or serious baggage they have to work through.


That would be great, except everyone has baggage. It's just a matter of if it's a carry on or a five piece matching set.


----------



## candice912

vthomeschoolmom said:


> BigBadWolf said:
> 
> 
> 
> For such a man to ask for his wife's opinion, this is looking very close to instead he is looking for her leadership. Where this would be great in matters of finance or childrearing or what color drapes to purchase, this is a big red flag for the sexual attraction department!
> 
> Oh My God. I am supposed to care what color DRAPES to buy?!? Eeeeeh. Happily no one in this house cares if we even HAVE drapes.
> 
> Have I mentioned how useless I think these gender stereotypes are?
> 
> ... snip a bunch of stereotypes...
> 
> 
> 
> Too funny! :rofl: You made me look to see if I had drapes.
Click to expand...


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## MEM2020

*Re: what's attractive...fear and desire*

The most powerful desire killers on a 1-10 scale:

- Fear of your wife - this is a 10+ - nothing is more of a turnoff for a woman. 
- Fear of anything else expressed BEFORE resolution

However - fear that you overcome is a whole different story. If you are afraid of a bad outcome, and keep your fear to yourself while working hard to prevent the bad outcome/get to a good outcome and you SUCCEED, then you can amplify the win in terms of how it impacts HER view of you. 

The way to do that is to say "actually I was really afraid that x, y, z would happen so I did a, b, c". Ideally you tell the story in a humorous/entertaining way. This gets you points for courage a very prized male trait. 

And "talking about the relationship" is a way of expressing your fear of her, of her not loving/liking you. Of her leaving you. Train wreck. You only discuss the relationship if SHE brings it up and ONLY in response to her comments with one exception. And that exception is if you are conveying what is not acceptable to YOU if she wants the relationship to continue. That is not fear, it is fair warning and done properly will improve the relationship. 

HARMFUL: I feel sad, ignored, unloved
HELPFUL: The level of effort you are putting into this marriage is not even close to fair and is not acceptable to me in the long run. 

But you better be a good partner or demanding effort will produce a bad outcome.



Deejo said:


> Well that's a pretty friggin short list ...
> 
> I'll do my best to translate further.
> 
> It is virtually a lock that if you start exhibiting self-satisfaction, happiness, confidence, and pride in interests and endeavors outside the scope of your marriage, and reduce the attention you are trying to focus on your wife, she will in turn become curious about what is happening to you.
> 
> Somewhere along the line, WE (meaning men) drank the Kool-Aid on the 'talk-it-out' piece. We opened up about our hopes, dreams, and fears.
> 
> The last one needs to be stricken from the list. Particularly if your fear revolves around losing your woman.
> 
> It is the single synergistic piece that undermines all of the other things you are trying to improve about yourself in order to be more attractive.
> 
> As the old adage goes: Deeds, not words.
> 
> If you are looking for further insight, you can check out some of the book titles in the following link:
> 
> 'Man Up' Books


----------



## candice912

*Re: what's attractive...fear and desire*



MEM11363 said:


> The most powerful desire killers on a 1-10 scale:
> 
> - Fear of your wife - this is a 10+ - nothing is more of a turnoff for a woman.
> - Fear of anything else expressed BEFORE resolution
> 
> However - fear that you overcome is a whole different story. If you are afraid of a bad outcome, and keep your fear to yourself while working hard to prevent the bad outcome/get to a good outcome and you SUCCEED, then you can amplify the win in terms of how it impacts HER view of you.
> 
> The way to do that is to say "actually I was really afraid that x, y, z would happen so I did a, b, c". Ideally you tell the story in a humorous/entertaining way. This gets you points for courage a very prized male trait.
> 
> And "talking about the relationship" is a way of expressing your fear of her, of her not loving/liking you. Of her leaving you. Train wreck. You only discuss the relationship if SHE brings it up and ONLY in response to her comments with one exception. And that exception is if you are conveying what is not acceptable to YOU if she wants the relationship to continue. That is not fear, it is fair warning and done properly will improve the relationship.
> 
> HARMFUL: I feel sad, ignored, unloved
> HELPFUL: The level of effort you are putting into this marriage is not even close to fair and is not acceptable to me in the long run.
> 
> But you better be a good partner or demanding effort will produce a bad outcome.


Mem, I've liked some things you have written before, but this is just backwards. Your abc xyz example is the exact thing that has ever caused problems in my marrriage. Luckily, he's doing a lot less of it. And "talk about the relationship", if he didn't bring it up from time to time, I'd think he was a calous, selfish and too immature to engage in a heartfelt discussions. Because he does bring it up, occasionally, I know that he does think about it aside from me bringing it up and feeling I'm forcing him to have another dreaded conversation about the relationship. Your helpful statement seems accusatory, and as you said demanding. One does not demand from their spouse, one asks politely. And your harmful statement is actually helpful. I feel statements are part of healthy communication skills.


----------



## MEM2020

*Re: what's attractive...fear and desire*

Candice,
Why was it harmful for him to tell you "after the fact" he was afraid of a bad outcome that he proactively worked to ensure didn't happen?

I agree with your comments about the helpful / harmful. They were off base. I retract them and will try to restate. 

Harmful: repeatedly telling her the same thing about stuff that causes you to feel sad, ignored, lonely. Tell her once. If that doesn't work AND the relationship is unbalanced - meaning you are radiating a lot more love than you are receiving - then you need to start focusing LESS on her. That doesn't mean acting cold or jerky. Just stop bombarding her with "I love yous", texts, calls, etc. If you tell her once and nothing changes it is likely because she doesn't feel the way you want her to feel. Complaining about it repeatedly comes across as needy and crowds the other person making them pull further away. 

Helpful: The golden rule in all its various forms. She does something you think is just wrong you ask in a polite way "have I ever done that to you?" odds are you have. Let her talk you might learn something. If you haven't she might realize she was over the top and apologize. If you get the blowoff - which is an "irritated" no, without further comment you press the point. "would you be ok if I did that to you?"

As for the guy seeming callous if he doesn't "talk about the relationship" once in a while, I call bullshiit on that. If the guy treats you fairly and is straight with you AND is willing to discuss the relationship when YOU want to, he is a good guy. Full stop. A guy who doesn't proactively discuss the R because he is happy with it does not make him a "insert negative adjective here"








candice912 said:


> Mem, I've liked some things you have written before, but this is just backwards. Your abc xyz example is the exact thing that has ever caused problems in my marrriage. Luckily, he's doing a lot less of it. And "talk about the relationship", if he didn't bring it up from time to time, I'd think he was a calous, selfish and too immature to engage in a heartfelt discussions. Because he does bring it up, occasionally, I know that he does think about it aside from me bringing it up and feeling I'm forcing him to have another dreaded conversation about the relationship. Your helpful statement seems accusatory, and as you said demanding. One does not demand from their spouse, one asks politely. And your harmful statement is actually helpful. I feel statements are part of healthy communication skills.


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## marriagesucks

candice
i know most people have baggage... I said "serious" baggage.

I want to be desire by someone who does not have addictions, anger problems or serious (emphasis on serious) baggage.


----------



## candice912

*Re: what's attractive...fear and desire*



MEM11363 said:


> Candice,
> Why was it harmful for him to tell you "after the fact" he was afraid of a bad outcome that he proactively worked to ensure didn't happen?
> 
> I agree with your comments about the helpful / harmful. They were off base. I retract them and will try to restate.
> 
> Harmful: repeatedly telling her the same thing about stuff that causes you to feel sad, ignored, lonely. Tell her once. If that doesn't work AND the relationship is unbalanced - meaning you are radiating a lot more love than you are receiving - then you need to start focusing LESS on her. That doesn't mean acting cold or jerky. Just stop bombarding her with "I love yous", texts, calls, etc. If you tell her once and nothing changes it is likely because she doesn't feel the way you want her to feel. Complaining about it repeatedly comes across as needy and crowds the other person making them pull further away.
> 
> Helpful: The golden rule in all its various forms. She does something you think is just wrong you ask in a polite way "have I ever done that to you?" odds are you have. Let her talk you might learn something. If you haven't she might realize she was over the top and apologize. If you get the blowoff - which is an "irritated" no, without further comment you press the point. "would you be ok if I did that to you?"
> 
> As for the guy seeming callous if he doesn't "talk about the relationship" once in a while, I call bullshiit on that. If the guy treats you fairly and is straight with you AND is willing to discuss the relationship when YOU want to, he is a good guy. Full stop. A guy who doesn't proactively discuss the R because he is happy with it does not make him a "insert negative adjective here"


Mem,
Why is it harmful to tell me after the fact? Because I am not a child. I am his wife. I don't care what my husband says to others outside the home, but at home, we share everything. If something is going on, I want to know about it. I may let him handle it, because I trust him, but I don't like being left in the dark even if he does succeed. And what if he doesn't succeed? That feels like the rug ripped out from under you. The reality is that I do trust my husband with my life, but I also know he can't control the whole world and some bad things will come down the pike. After he forewarns me, and he succeeds, then he can go tell abc xyz stories to whomever he pleases, including me, and get all the points he wants.

As for your clarification on harmful/helpful, you make me laugh. It's roughly the same advice I gave to a woman yesterday for her husband. Hence, I'd have to agree with you.

As for "talk about the relationship"
I quote you, 
Helpful: The golden rule in all its various forms. She does something you think is just wrong you ask in a polite way "have I ever done that to you?" odds are you have.
I believe you just talked about the relationship. In which case, your not calous. You sent a message to me that you did think about the relationship.


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## MEM2020

*Re: what's attractive...fear and desire*

C,
You are really good at this. OK - you have now nailed me twice (totally fairly - and tactfully both times). 

Anything that might directly impact my W - I generally tell her. I don't "protect" her from reality - she is plenty tough. That said she does not need to ride "my" personal roller coaster. So if I am working 3 deals and all 3 of them are going sideways I likely tell her - but I don't:
- Do it when I am distraught - why bury your partner with a lot of negative energy. It isn't nice. 
- Do it when she is either deeply fatigued or distraught herself about other stuff. 

I guess this truly is more of the golden rule. Timing and delivery style show consideration for your partner. 

As for "talking about the relationship" - whenever you say "I love you" you are doing that. Same thing for when you compliment or critique your partner on how they interact with you. We do that every day. I imagine that I was thinking more along the lines of a heavy, lengthy discussion about what is good and bad in the marriage. We typically don't do that as just about everything gets handled either in the moment - or if the "moment" is not well suited for it, the very next day. 






candice912 said:


> Mem,
> Why is it harmful to tell me after the fact? Because I am not a child. I am his wife. I don't care what my husband says to others outside the home, but at home, we share everything. If something is going on, I want to know about it. I may let him handle it, because I trust him, but I don't like being left in the dark even if he does succeed. And what if he doesn't succeed? That feels like the rug ripped out from under you. The reality is that I do trust my husband with my life, but I also know he can't control the whole world and some bad things will come down the pike. After he forewarns me, and he succeeds, then he can go tell abc xyz stories to whomever he pleases, including me, and get all the points he wants.
> 
> As for your clarification on harmful/helpful, you make me laugh. It's roughly the same advice I gave to a woman yesterday for her husband. Hence, I'd have to agree with you.
> 
> As for "talk about the relationship"
> I quote you,
> Helpful: The golden rule in all its various forms. She does something you think is just wrong you ask in a polite way "have I ever done that to you?" odds are you have.
> I believe you just talked about the relationship. In which case, your not calous. You sent a message to me that you did think about the relationship.


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## less_disgruntled

Reading lists like bigbadwolf's makes me wonder why I'm not more of a misogynist. Essentially what I read there is that if a man ever expresses a modicum of doubt about anything, he's no longer a man. Working towards a goal but realizing it's the wrong direction? So now making mistakes is unmanly? What's next, "Women ONLY find men SEXUALLY ATTRACTIVE when they pick the WINNING stocks 100% of the time, or at least pretend like they do"? What about stress? Do real men experience stress?

Why do so many wives beat their husbands' ears and wallets until they get their way? Are they testing their husbands? Does that strike any of you as a moral deficit? I can't stop someone from spending money I didn't know she spent.

I guess I'm just tired of all this blame-the-husband crap. There are too many stories from both men and women complaining about sexless marriages for it to be entirely a "Not Man Enough" thing. Y'all ought to consider the faint possibility that many, many women also want to have their cake and eat it too, AKA, raising the bar impossibly high. See the thing about spending above... at some level I do believe my wife thinks I'm less of a man because she lied about spending and finances to me. I mean, I can't live in a world where it's possible to be held accountable for something you don't know someone else did, but apparently, I do.

Also no one has sex three times a day after more than a few weeks, unless it's with different people.

Begging/bargaining for sex is pretty low, though, have some self-respect.


----------



## less_disgruntled

*Re: what's attractive...fear and desire*



MEM11363 said:


> So if I am working 3 deals and all 3 of them are going sideways I likely tell her - but I don't:
> - Do it when I am distraught - why bury your partner with a lot of negative energy. It isn't nice.
> - Do it when she is either deeply fatigued or distraught herself about other stuff.
> 
> I guess this truly is more of the golden rule. Timing and delivery style show consideration for your partner.



I guess my question is what you do when you actually want her input in a decision. I've found it almost impossible to include my wife in some decisions that involve weighing different outcomes because--well, I don't know why. She has trouble assessing risks, investment, potential reward and probability, in my opinion. "What do you want for yourself?" is not really a helpful question to ask when you're trying to see if the job market in a particular area is at all viable.

I guess what I don't understand is why she's allowed to unburden all her woes and troubles on me but I don't get to have any, or every... single... one... needs to be solved ("man up!"). What's next, "real men don't go into psychotherapy!" "real men don't acknowledge they have personal failings!" Who the **** comes up with these rules? Hey, ladies, your dad was an *******, and that's not a good thing. I'm a human being, goddamnit.

Still, I respect myself more than to beg for sex. And if someone says "women who have real men as partners DON'T GAIN [at least some] WEIGHT" I'm going to laugh you out of the classroom.

Anyway i should add that I don't feel sex-deprived, so this might all be easy for me to say. I do feel like my testicles have shrunk from chemical exposure, though.


----------



## MEM2020

LD,
You sound angry. As in "generally angry" not just annoyed about a post. So lets see how far off we actually are in perspective. 

First and foremost I believe there are very few "absolutes". Sure we absolutely don't cheat on each other but even there we have had some discussions about compromise - more on that later. 

The general message that I promote is this:
- Find a way to be a great partner in and out of bed
- Define your boundaries and defend them as if both your sanity and your marriage depend on them - because they do. 

That said I believe that being indecisive/passive are huge turn offs to a woman. I also believe a good woman respects a man who is capable of saying "I don't know, I am not sure and/or let me think about it" in situations where that is an honest response. 

The winning stock comment represents a caricature of a typical female. I would put it a very different way. A woman wants her male partner to be a good provider. Exactly how he does that is up to him. 

As for your comment about not being able to stop someone from spending money you didn't know they spent I have a harsh and unfiltered question for you.

Where are your boundaries? Seriously. If my W began a pattern of financial infidelity I would sit her down and explain that violating our financial "rules of engagement" would harm the marriage, and/or cause me to end it depending on the severity. We have a discretionary spending threshold above which a conversation is required prior to purchase. We both follow that rule consistently. 

As for females and their financial expectations. That was a key elimination criteria for me when dating. I had zero interest in marrying someone who was either bad with money or simply had lifestyle expectations beyond what I thought I could provide. 

Everything I talk about doing - I actually do/have done for a long time with positive outcome in my marriage. And that includes setting and enforcing reasonable boundaries. Ultimately though it is all based on the golden rule. I don't ask for stuff I wouldn't give. Don't demand stuff that I would not want demanded of me. 

My W DEFINITELY pushes boundaries. I call this "male fitness testing". It is quite fun if you treat it as a skill based exercise AND you get good at it. I like having an aggressive partner, she is really fun and slightly crazy. 

As for sex. I have never begged for it. I do have a post though about how I handled a conversation with my W where she expressed a lack of desire for me. Worked out very well for both of us. 



less_disgruntled said:


> Reading lists like bigbadwolf's makes me wonder why I'm not more of a misogynist. Essentially what I read there is that if a man ever expresses a modicum of doubt about anything, he's no longer a man. Working towards a goal but realizing it's the wrong direction? So now making mistakes is unmanly? What's next, "Women ONLY find men SEXUALLY ATTRACTIVE when they pick the WINNING stocks 100% of the time, or at least pretend like they do"? What about stress? Do real men experience stress?
> 
> Why do so many wives beat their husbands' ears and wallets until they get their way? Are they testing their husbands? Does that strike any of you as a moral deficit? I can't stop someone from spending money I didn't know she spent.
> 
> I guess I'm just tired of all this blame-the-husband crap. There are too many stories from both men and women complaining about sexless marriages for it to be entirely a "Not Man Enough" thing. Y'all ought to consider the faint possibility that many, many women also want to have their cake and eat it too, AKA, raising the bar impossibly high. See the thing about spending above... at some level I do believe my wife thinks I'm less of a man because she lied about spending and finances to me. I mean, I can't live in a world where it's possible to be held accountable for something you don't know someone else did, but apparently, I do.
> 
> Also no one has sex three times a day after more than a few weeks, unless it's with different people.
> 
> Begging/bargaining for sex is pretty low, though, have some self-respect.


----------



## greenpearl

MEM11363 said:


> LD,
> You sound angry. As in "generally angry" not just annoyed about a post. So lets see how far off we actually are in perspective.
> 
> First and foremost I believe there are very few "absolutes". Sure we absolutely don't cheat on each other but even there we have had some discussions about compromise - more on that later.
> 
> The general message that I promote is this:
> - Find a way to be a great partner in and out of bed
> - Define your boundaries and defend them as if both your sanity and your marriage depend on them - because they do.
> 
> That said I believe that being indecisive/passive are huge turn offs to a woman. I also believe a good woman respects a man who is capable of saying "I don't know, I am not sure and/or let me think about it" in situations where that is an honest response.
> 
> The winning stock comment represents a caricature of a typical female. I would put it a very different way. A woman wants her male partner to be a good provider. Exactly how he does that is up to him.
> 
> As for your comment about not being able to stop someone from spending money you didn't know they spent I have a harsh and unfiltered question for you.
> 
> Where are your boundaries? Seriously. If my W began a pattern of financial infidelity I would sit her down and explain that violating our financial "rules of engagement" would harm the marriage, and/or cause me to end it depending on the severity. We have a discretionary spending threshold above which a conversation is required prior to purchase. We both follow that rule consistently.
> 
> As for females and their financial expectations. That was a key elimination criteria for me when dating. I had zero interest in marrying someone who was either bad with money or simply had lifestyle expectations beyond what I thought I could provide.
> 
> Everything I talk about doing - I actually do/have done for a long time with positive outcome in my marriage. And that includes setting and enforcing reasonable boundaries. Ultimately though it is all based on the golden rule. I don't ask for stuff I wouldn't give. Don't demand stuff that I would not want demanded of me.
> 
> My W DEFINITELY pushes boundaries. I call this "male fitness testing". It is quite fun if you treat it as a skill based exercise AND you get good at it. I like having an aggressive partner, she is really fun and slightly crazy.
> 
> As for sex. I have never begged for it. I do have a post though about how I handled a conversation with my W where she expressed a lack of desire for me. Worked out very well for both of us.


MEM, do a lot of men say things they don't mean to their wives?

We used to have this friend. She doesn't want to cook, her husband complains to us about her. But in front of her, the man said: Honey, it is OK that you don't cook. It isn't worthwhile for you to cook. Your hour pay is much more than a meal. And she really likes it. They eat out every day, he is frustrated that he doesn't get to eat home-cooked meals, both of them are getting fat eating out. 

Why don't men dare to say what they really want? why are men afraid to tell their wives what they really want and like? Why are they so scared of offending their wives? What do they get? Their women become very spoiled!


----------



## less_disgruntled

-------------off-topic-------------------

@MEM: I'm mostly just exacerbated and mostly agree with you, actually... I read advice to "MAN UP" then I read advice to "listen." I hear about the need to be emotionally available then I'm told that's a sign of weakness. Etc... I just would have thought humans put more wisdom together about this.

When my wife and I got together, I was pretty strict about money, but tried to carry a little more weight so she could pay off some of her debts and save etc., and I felt like I was being a provider. But I feel like I'm a double-bind. E.g., we had to get her a new car. Needed to--she drives hundreds of miles for work. I withdrew from my IRA so we could pay off the old car with the bad transmission. We agreed on this, and I made her wait three months... then I learned that it wasn't paid off a few weeks ago. Okay, she still needs a reliable car w/ AWD. But now I'm a chump for thinking she was honest when she agreed to the terms. I brought it up, calmly... she is still learning, but I don't know how to communicate to her that money is important. I tried talking about it, being a good example, worrying about it, yelling about it, emailing about it... sometimes I feel like I'm talking to a wall. I hope that doesn't qualify as "male fitness testing," because, well, I'm not in the telepathic league yet. 

[/off-topic]


----------



## MEM2020

LD,
I understand that the "man up" and "listen be sensitive" messages seem contradictory. I can only tell you what works for me:
- I do not discuss controversial stuff with my W when I am angry. Because when angry I am not good at problem solving and I do not deliver a clear/concise message. 
- When something important gets screwed up as soon as I am calm I sit her down and take her through a well thought out script. 

As for being sensitive - I am perfectly capable of being empathetic and saying "I know this is hard, and feel bad that I can't give you everything you want right now, ultimately if you can't be happy living within our means I am not the right guy for you". 

Which is the sensitive/strong combo. Notice the phrase "if you can't be happy". See it isn't enough to stop crazy spending. This closes the door to her making you miserable for insisting that she be reasonable.

The script starts with confirming what just happened - sticking to the facts - for you this might be: we agreed to plan A, it now seems there is a big deviation from that plan we need to discuss that. This step is critical - some people - men can be just as guilty - will deny the original agreement. If that happened to ME, it would only happen once. I would not divorce over it I would however insist that ALL financial agreements be via me sending her an email and her confirming receipt and commitment. However if she wasn't willing to go to written communication and she was denying the existence of an important verbal agreement I would initiate a divorce because this is no longer about what is fair, or honest or reasonable. This is a blatant message that she is not willing to commit to/stick to a financial plan/any other type important life plan. 

As for this mindset - all I can say is that this is why we have had fewer than 5 fights about money in 21+ years together, why we have zero debt of any type and our savings are good. 

Once you confirm what happened then you have to present her a suggested approach for avoiding a repeat of this situation. If I had a financially irresponsible spouse I would force a move to:
- Credit cards with VERY low limits
- Use debit cards for everything else because they give you instant visibility - a daily picture - of spending

But none of this matters unless you are able to persuade her that living within your means is a beautiful thing and that if she wants to spend more SHE has to earn more. And ultimately part of that is explaining you won't tolerate (read will divorce) this type behavior. 

But hey everyone is different. Me - I am not willing to be broke/zero net worth/negative net worth for anyone. Fortunately I married someone who feels the same way. 




less_disgruntled said:


> -------------off-topic-------------------
> 
> @MEM: I'm mostly just exacerbated and mostly agree with you, actually... I read advice to "MAN UP" then I read advice to "listen." I hear about the need to be emotionally available then I'm told that's a sign of weakness. Etc... I just would have thought humans put more wisdom together about this.
> 
> When my wife and I got together, I was pretty strict about money, but tried to carry a little more weight so she could pay off some of her debts and save etc., and I felt like I was being a provider. But I feel like I'm a double-bind. E.g., we had to get her a new car. Needed to--she drives hundreds of miles for work. I withdrew from my IRA so we could pay off the old car with the bad transmission. We agreed on this, and I made her wait three months... then I learned that it wasn't paid off a few weeks ago. Okay, she still needs a reliable car w/ AWD. But now I'm a chump for thinking she was honest when she agreed to the terms. I brought it up, calmly... she is still learning, but I don't know how to communicate to her that money is important. I tried talking about it, being a good example, worrying about it, yelling about it, emailing about it... sometimes I feel like I'm talking to a wall. I hope that doesn't qualify as "male fitness testing," because, well, I'm not in the telepathic league yet.
> 
> [/off-topic]


----------



## candice912

*Re: what's attractive...fear and desire*



MEM11363 said:


> C,
> You are really good at this. OK - you have now nailed me twice (totally fairly - and tactfully both times).
> 
> Anything that might directly impact my W - I generally tell her. I don't "protect" her from reality - she is plenty tough. That said she does not need to ride "my" personal roller coaster. So if I am working 3 deals and all 3 of them are going sideways I likely tell her - but I don't:
> - Do it when I am distraught - why bury your partner with a lot of negative energy. It isn't nice.
> - Do it when she is either deeply fatigued or distraught herself about other stuff.
> 
> I guess this truly is more of the golden rule. Timing and delivery style show consideration for your partner.
> 
> As for "talking about the relationship" - whenever you say "I love you" you are doing that. Same thing for when you compliment or critique your partner on how they interact with you. We do that every day. I imagine that I was thinking more along the lines of a heavy, lengthy discussion about what is good and bad in the marriage. We typically don't do that as just about everything gets handled either in the moment - or if the "moment" is not well suited for it, the very next day.


Mem,
It wasn't my intention to nail you, but I appreciate your honesty and level-headedness and humor. I'm sure your wife does too. I understand you not wanting your wife to ride your roller coaster, nor do I wish to ruin my husband's day by making him ride mine. However, maybe it's different in your relationship than mine, so I will ask you: When something negative impacts my husband, I feel it and I feel worried until he tells me what it is. Likewise, he is sensitive to my mood changes. We are not talking drastic things necessarily. I know he tries to protect me from these things; but I always feel relieved once he tells me. I'm confident in him enough to know he can take care of it himself and that he will ask my advice when he wants it, hence, I try not to give him unsolicited advice. Do you find that your wife notices anyway, even though you try and hide it? And yes, I totally agree with you that some things it's better to wait for a good moment to discuss. 
As for the disussing the relationship, previously, you had asked a question in your exampe, and it is a question that opens up a dialoge, not a mere statement of I love you. 
As, I've said before, I like what you have to say and appreciate your clarification. It seems like you have a good marriage and I'd consider mine good, although a little greener than yours, it never hurts to share ideas. Hopefully others gain insight into our discussion as well.


----------



## MEM2020

*Re: what's attractive...fear and desire*

We also can read each other quite well. If either of us reads "trouble" with the other we ask. And if asked we answer. 

I actually think it is really bad to radiate that you are upset and then refuse to tell your partner why. 

That said when we first see each other at the end of the day I have learned to be completely "in the moment" and she gets a big smile and a big hug. And that is how our day together typically "starts". We don't interact in the morning - different schedules. 





candice912 said:


> Mem,
> It wasn't my intention to nail you, but I appreciate your honesty and level-headedness and humor. I'm sure your wife does too. I understand you not wanting your wife to ride your roller coaster, nor do I wish to ruin my husband's day by making him ride mine. However, maybe it's different in your relationship than mine, so I will ask you: When something negative impacts my husband, I feel it and I feel worried until he tells me what it is. Likewise, he is sensitive to my mood changes. We are not talking drastic things necessarily. I know he tries to protect me from these things; but I always feel relieved once he tells me. I'm confident in him enough to know he can take care of it himself and that he will ask my advice when he wants it, hence, I try not to give him unsolicited advice. Do you find that your wife notices anyway, even though you try and hide it? And yes, I totally agree with you that some things it's better to wait for a good moment to discuss.
> As for the disussing the relationship, previously, you had asked a question in your exampe, and it is a question that opens up a dialoge, not a mere statement of I love you.
> As, I've said before, I like what you have to say and appreciate your clarification. It seems like you have a good marriage and I'd consider mine good, although a little greener than yours, it never hurts to share ideas. Hopefully others gain insight into our discussion as well.


----------



## miserableinlove_35

BigBadWolf said:


> I will beat this drum as often as it needs to be beaten but if at ANY time a woman sex drive is not equal to her mans sex drive or exceeding it, then something is missing in the relationship.
> 
> 
> So what is hard about this? What is hard is that most men I am learning do not notice what makes a woman feel sexually attractive.
> 
> 
> These things do not make a woman feel attractive:
> 
> Being bribed for sex.
> 
> Being desired by a man that is unwilling to stand up for himself.
> 
> Being desired by a man she doesn't respect (see above).
> 
> Being desired by a man that is unwilling to fight for her.
> 
> Being desired by a man that is not desirable to other women.
> 
> Being desired by a man that is not desirable to himself.
> 
> 
> 
> And these things a woman finds irrestibly attractive:
> 
> Being desired by a man that not only knows what he wants, he is willing to pursue what he wants.
> 
> Being desired by a man that not only will stand up for himself, but seems to enjoy doing so.
> 
> Being desired by a man that commands respect.
> 
> Being desired by a man that has demonstrated he willing fight for her (even if the one he is fighting IS her).
> 
> Being desired by a man that desirable to other women.
> 
> Being desired by a man that is confident and bold and comfortable with himself.
> 
> 
> 
> So in all this, if you are a good man not satisfied with the sex life, stop being on the first list, and start being on the second list!
> 
> I wish you well.


OK this all sounds good. Definately sounds like a good plan and I can see where I'm hitting a few of the undesireable points. The trouble is in hitting the desireable ones. First of all standing up for myself: against who? about what? For the most part I'm a pretty apathetic guy and find things are not worth standing up for. SHould I start faking things to stand up for. Also I'm pretty sure she wouldn't want the neandrathal man that goes around punching people. I do think that she feels I am too apathetic about my kids and their bio-mom, but honestly she would have me up in arms all day every day about things, when I know I have to pick my battles otherwise spend days on end banging my head against a wall for nothing. As far as me and her go I find it difficult to know the difference between standing up for myself or just being stubborn and unfeeling about her wants or needs. 
Respect?! not sure how to earn her respect. I've stayed firm on things I believed and lost her respect, giving into her every whim or opinion seems unmanly and not respect earning. This comes up especially in child raising with blended kids.
Again not sure how to fight her in a way that is fighting for her. I do know that the kids bio-mom has said or done things in the past that she believes I should have addressed, but again she would have me calling the president to declare martial law. Also my apathetic self would really let if run off my back and not give the ex the pleasure of knowing it bugged me.
Desired by other women: yes I do know that others find me at least physically attractivel, she used to always be complimented on her new beau.
Confident and comfortable with myself?: yes for the most part. Bold?: not sure what that means. course I realize that not being sure of what bold is pretty much says I'm not bold but whatever.
Overall turning into Mr Manly sounds like a plan, but where is the line between that and being an overbearing, abusive, egotistical ass?


----------



## BigBadWolf

miserableinlove_35 said:


> OK this all sounds good. Definately sounds like a good plan and I can see where I'm hitting a few of the undesireable points. The trouble is in hitting the desireable ones.


Even to recognize a small something that you can improve upon is progress.



> First of all standing up for myself: against who? about what?


Are you happy in your sexual relationship? Is it close to everything in your mind that you imagine, fantasize, or desire (even the darkest desires)?

Against who? Against the habits and behaviors that are preventing you from achieve what you desire. 

About what? About what you do not have that you wish, and what you have that perhaps you do not wish.



> For the most part I'm a pretty apathetic guy and find things are not worth standing up for. SHould I start faking things to stand up for.



Is your woman worth standing up for?

Is yourself worth standing up for?

Is your own happiness, desire, and vision of a happy, sexual, exciting marriage worth standing up for?

Speaking bluntly, please understand, laziness and sexual fulfillment, they are not complimentary. 

Now realize, you have at one point already in your life in a relationship with a woman, no? So then understand no woman will enter in a relationship with a man who will express that "things are not worth standing up for".

Something at first, or while dating caught her eye. What was it? Good at sports, an interesting conversationist or full of humor? Skilled at something you were demonstrating to her? Interesting hobbies or mastery of musical instrument? 

What was it?

And why now, in marriage, do you think it is okay to be "apathetic" and then wonder what is missing in sexual department! :scratchhead:

To own a car, it must be maintained. To own a house, it must be maintained. To own a boat, it must be maintained.

To be in a sexual relationship, it must be maintained!

Autopilot, cruise control, apathy, laziness, these are not lighting a fire in any woman toward her man!



> Also I'm pretty sure she wouldn't want the neandrathal man that goes around punching people.


I have no idea what are you talking about here. :scratchhead:



> I do think that she feels I am too apathetic about my kids and their bio-mom, but honestly she would have me up in arms all day every day about things, when I know I have to pick my battles otherwise spend days on end banging my head against a wall for nothing.


Is there business in this area you are neglecting, that should be taken care of from your own leadership and decision?

Do not wait for your woman to lead you in taking care of your own responsibilities.

This sounds harsh maybe, but understand, no woman on this earth will be sexually attracted to the man who behaves as her own child.

If you wish to be happy and in a healthy sexual relationship with your woman, do not expect or rely on your woman to be your leader.

Be your own leader!



> As far as me and her go I find it difficult to know the difference between standing up for myself or just being stubborn and unfeeling about her wants or needs.


Much in this sentence that is being said.

Standing up for yourself = taking care of your business AND actively pursuing your own happiness (note also these are action verbs!) 

Stubborn, well being stubbon is not much to worry about normally, but I'm wondering if you say you are being stubborn when you mean you are being negligent.

Her wants and needs = really, in this context, her wants and needs is not so much an issue. As a man, your job is not put your woman on a pedastal, in the way of trying to cater to her wants and needs. 

Too often a man speaks of his woman's wants or needs, when really he is taking "fitness tests" too literally, so be careful in this area.



> Respect?! not sure how to earn her respect. I've stayed firm on things I believed and lost her respect, giving into her every whim or opinion seems unmanly and not respect earning. This comes up especially in child raising with blended kids.


Standing firm is earning respect. So is doing the right thing.

Are you honestly squaring your loss of respect in her eyes with your previoius comments about being apathetic and not seeing many things worthy to stand for?



> Again not sure how to fight her in a way that is fighting for her.


Do something contrary to what you are "told to do", something that is needing to be done either for your happiness or the benefit of the marriage.



> I do know that the kids bio-mom has said or done things in the past that she believes I should have addressed, but again she would have me calling the president to declare martial law.


Perfect opportunity.

Address what needs to be addressed.

What doesn't need to be addressed, state your position on the matter, and state your expectation that you have handled the matter in the way you see fit and any further mere complaining by your woman is unhelpful and needs to stop.

And this is important, do not react to such complaining by becoming angry, agitated, or in any other way appearing to lose control.

A man with self control inspires confidence in his decisions.

So in this way, even in a matter of disagreement, when there is self control there is not the loss of trust (and subsequent loss of respect) that will occur in a woman's mind when she sees her man lose control of himself or become wishy-washy.



> Also my apathetic self would really let if run off my back and not give the ex the pleasure of knowing it bugged me.


Apathy could be instead viewed that you are unwilling or unable to stand for yourself. Be careful in how this plays out, particularly if your woman is thinking your ex really affects to "too much". 

This plants the seeds of insecurity leading to resentment.



> Desired by other women: yes I do know that others find me at least physically attractivel, she used to always be complimented on her new beau.


Is she complimented today?

Do you carry yourself in attitude as the man who can have any another woman?

If not, your woman gets to feeling inside that she is settling for less a man. I encourage all good men reading this to do much research on the word "hypergamy".

A woman, it is not just that she is unafraid of a challenge, in truth she is most satisfied when there is one.

Few things more lethal to a sexual relationship than a boring, predictable man.



> Confident and comfortable with myself?: yes for the most part.


Excellent.



> Bold?: not sure what that means. course I realize that not being sure of what bold is pretty much says I'm not bold but whatever.


Bold? It is taking command of a situation, it is speaking, acting, and behaving in a way that inspires trust and confidence in others. It is swatting your woman on her rear end and complimenting her on her ass, it is grabbing her around her waist, kissing her passionately and then going about your business. It is telling her in the morning to be ready at 6pm wearing the dress you like and then taking her out on the town (and men, do this WITHOUT asking her "honey, what do you want to do tonight). 

It is in attitude that you are the man to be prized above all other men, the attitude that lights a fire inside your woman that she is so much a feminine and desireable woman herself to be desired by such a man!

So how it is, like a snowball grows and grows and it rolls downhill, or the rivers grows and grows as each smaller stream feeds into it, to do these things a drop at a time will collect and grow, and a mighty river can it become!



> Overall turning into Mr Manly sounds like a plan, but where is the line between that and being an overbearing, abusive, egotistical ass?


I do not see this in this discussion.

Certainly nothing abusive about it or inviting any abuse whatsoever.

My position, the "nice guy" would sooner have to worry about being "too rich" or "too succesful" or "too sexy", than have to worry of such things.

Instead, he should worry about his behaviors leading to the sexless, miserable marriage that will downwardly spiral into affairs, divorce, or mere existance as he is longing for the day of his death!

Good men reading this, it does not have to be this way!

Do what works, stop doing what does not work - for your happiness and the happiness of your woman!


----------



## Halien

miserableinlove_35 said:


> OK this all sounds good. Definately sounds like a good plan and I can see where I'm hitting a few of the undesireable points. The trouble is in hitting the desireable ones. First of all standing up for myself: against who? about what? For the most part I'm a pretty apathetic guy and find things are not worth standing up for. SHould I start faking things to stand up for. Also I'm pretty sure she wouldn't want the neandrathal man that goes around punching people. I do think that she feels I am too apathetic about my kids and their bio-mom, but honestly she would have me up in arms all day every day about things, when I know I have to pick my battles otherwise spend days on end banging my head against a wall for nothing. As far as me and her go I find it difficult to know the difference between standing up for myself or just being stubborn and unfeeling about her wants or needs.
> Respect?! not sure how to earn her respect. I've stayed firm on things I believed and lost her respect, giving into her every whim or opinion seems unmanly and not respect earning. This comes up especially in child raising with blended kids.
> Again not sure how to fight her in a way that is fighting for her. I do know that the kids bio-mom has said or done things in the past that she believes I should have addressed, but again she would have me calling the president to declare martial law. Also my apathetic self would really let if run off my back and not give the ex the pleasure of knowing it bugged me.
> Desired by other women: yes I do know that others find me at least physically attractivel, she used to always be complimented on her new beau.
> Confident and comfortable with myself?: yes for the most part. Bold?: not sure what that means. course I realize that not being sure of what bold is pretty much says I'm not bold but whatever.
> Overall turning into Mr Manly sounds like a plan, but where is the line between that and being an overbearing, abusive, egotistical ass?


You don't have to invent problems merely to show that you are standing up for yourself. Problems happen to all of us. I asked my wife recently what she was thinking of specifically when she said that I was alpha and masculine. She reminded me of a visit to a research hospital for my daughter. The bill, after insurance, was thousands. When I called about all of the rejected claims, the answers I heard would've tempted me to just let it go, but I don't just let things go. The customer service manager said that it was just the way it was, and to 'accept it'. I introduced myself as her new best friend for the next few years, if necessary. It's funny how her sarcasm changed over the weeks that followed. I cultivated relationships with the state Insurance Agency, the Attorney General's office, and of course, called the woman every day with a new 'issue' I wanted her to investigate, and to remind her that it would be so much easier for her to just investigate the denied claims. I saved many thousands of dollars (paid just a few hundred). But the reason I did it was because the experience made my wife feel victimized.

I'm not a neanderthall, but I've confronted my son's PE teacher, who watched while other kids bullied him, and then stuck around to confront the kids with their parents.

Being bold? We vacation in mountains nearby, which feature an incredible waterfall. She said it was a shame that it was so crowded. With just a little hiking at 1:00 AM, we made love and showered nude under the waterfall. Figured that if the park rangers caught us, it would be one of those stories we'd never get tired of telling. Usually, its more mundane, like taking ballroom dancing lessons to knock her off her feet at her cousins wedding reception.

To me, and most importantly, this mentality can't be something that you do for keeping a woman happy. It has to be who you are. I live by a code and try to stick to it. Things like never accepting complacency. Or never backing down if something truly matters. Being a leader. At work, my boss calls me the silent bulldog, and I've been promoted every 18 months since being employed my my current company for 16 years.


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## miserableinlove_35

Sooo where exactly can I find this waterfall? If that's bold I can do bold. I can and do stick to things that matter, the problem is that my spouse is usually the one deciding that something matters and it needs to be addressed. Most often this happens concerning my childrens bio mom and her time with the children. To which I usually feel that it is a nonissue to be shrugged off. A "pick your battles" type thing. So I guess that is my question? Do I make all of her issues mine even if I disagree. I'm ready to fight the good fight when it is needed but I don't see any reason to beat my head against a brick wall for little things. If any of you have dealt with courts, exes and custody you know that it can be very frustrating and stressful. The amount of things that courts just don't care about, or the things the cops can do nothing about is overwhelming. So fight a useless fight and wear yourself out because it's for your partner or try to let it go and fight another day?
Another thing is this. I can be overbearing and prickish with people as a consumer which leads to hurt feelings and surly tempers. To avoid this I often look to my spouse for advice on how to handle the situation better, or again to let it go. Is this wrong?


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## john1208

You know, it is a nice post, but how are you supposed to use that? It explains some things NOT to do, but it really isn't the most practical thread.


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## Patricia B. Pina

It is different from woman to woman but every girls want a confident man.


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## MAEPT10

To the OP.

_ what's attractive...my wife's input
OK, so in my eternal attempt to be the man of my wife's dreams (I once was, but I let that slip), I am researching and trying to put what I've learned into practice. See "My Man Plan".

In a late night tucked in bed conversation, I asked what she thought was attractive. Here's how she responded:

"Politeness (ie being nice, upbeat, and positive)"

-and 

"Confidence"

-and also not always talking about our relationship and just doing it...

I think my research is starting to slowly understand how the female mind works in a relationship..._


I asked my wife this the other night too. I used your idea. It was at a good time in the conversation in bed. No pressure type or anything like that. She responded.

-Confidence
-Funny
-Intelligence

I asked her about my physical body. I am only a little bit overweight, still very healthy, very active. I said to her I'm happy with my body as it is now. I asked her "how important is having an attractive husband?" She said "when you do the first three things, you are very attractive."

So those are my goals for life. Funny and Intelligent, I have those down.... working hard every day on the confidence.


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## Locard

Listen up. The last person who you should ever take advice from on matters such as these is a woman. 

The only people on earth who know less about women than men are women. 

Believe it.


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## YupItsMe

Talk is cheap. Knowing and doing without all the yap is where its at. 

My wife once said there is nothing sexy about having to tell a man what to do or how to please a woman.

Im sure Ill get a some **** about the importance of communication now. I get it but you also have to take a look at how attractive it is to just know what the hell you are doing in the sexually desireable department. 

There is plenty of information out there how to blow a womans hair back. There is also personal observation. Sometimes its a tad confusing becasue love languages are different until you sort thru that.

I think some on TAM get carried away with talk talk talk talk. Figuring it out on your own is more self reliant and therefore more attractive than needing remedial training from your wife on how to please a woman.


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## Runs like Dog

by and large what's attractive is whatever you don't have.


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## darksideofthemoon

I'll tell you what is NOT attractive: my husband, laying in bed all day, watching TV. 

He would be more attractive if he did something interesting.


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## memyselfandi

Here is my dream list...i wonder how many women can relate to this:

be desired by someone who takes reasonable care of himself and is not significantly overweight (like my husband is)

be desired by someone who absolutely adores me

be desired by someone who is kind to me and others

be desired by someone who is not selfish, a narcissist

be desired by someone who is completely committed to our relationship

be desired by someone who thinks I'm just his type of woman.

be desired by someone who likes doing things together with me because he likes my company

be desired by someone who appreciates my cultural background

be desired by someone who values my opinion and wisdom

be desired by someone who isn't necessarily a saint, but has strong values/ethical standards

be desired by someone who communicates openly about how he feels and communicates fairly when we fight. who is willing to say sorry.

be desired by someone who is financial stable or has potential to be.

be desired by someone who doesn't have addictions, anger issues or serious baggage they have to work through. 

That would be great, except everyone has baggage. It's just a matter of if it's a carry on or a five piece matching set.

Everyone DOES have baggage...it's just out choice on how we choose to deal with that baggage.

be desired by someone who takes reasonable care of himself and is not significantly overweight (like my husband is)

be desired by someone who absolutely adores me

be desired by someone who is kind to me and others

be desired by someone who is not selfish, a narcissist

be desired by someone who is completely committed to our relationship

be desired by someone who likes doing things together with me because he likes my company

be desired by someone who values my opinion and wisdom

be desired by someone who isn't necessarily a saint, but has strong values/ethical standards

be desired by someone who communicates openly about how he feels and communicates fairly when we fight. who is willing to say sorry.

be desired by someone who is financial stable or has potential to be.

be desired by someone who doesn't have addictions, anger issues or serious baggage they have to work through.

I guess I'm one of the lucky ones who's found the guy of her dreams that pretty much does all of the above.

We'd always been friends and if we'd written a dream list of who'd we'd like to be with..rather than the ones we'd rather chosen to be with and fell out of love with...what a huge difference that would have made in BOTH of our live and lists..lol.

I guess we have to consider ourselves lucky as the list is complete for both of us. 

I wish the same for the rest of you as you sooo deserve it. Finding your soul mate is the best thing in the entire world...along with being happy in love.

I'm not only marrying my best friend and the love of my life..but in addition...my soul mate.


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## Thundarr

I like this post and I think there is some good information in here. Of course one size does not fit all and that's where some of the differing opinions come from.

I agree with a lot of the original post. I used to have more negative traits during my first marriage, It ended and I blamed my ex-wife for it all but I evaluated what went wrong and really I was insecure and probably not very attractive. I did not grasp that being a good husband did not mean being walked over and treated disrespectfully. When someone treats you that way and you don't stand up then your asking for it.

I've been married 16 years now and I wonder how I landed such a great catch as my wife but then I think she's lucky to have me too. I learned a lot from my divorce and became a better man because of it. I agree with post here that you go for what you want, have self respect, be firm in your core beliefs, make known your deal breakers, and have empathy. Be nice until nice becomes a doormat and then be direct.

But then what do I know lol.


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## ffp20

marriagesucks said:


> i agree with BIG BAD WOLF to a point. I don't agree with the "be desired by list...."
> 
> Here is my dream list...i wonder how many women can relate to this:
> 
> be desired by someone who takes reasonable care of himself and is not significantly overweight (like my husband is)
> 
> be desired by someone who absolutely adores me
> 
> be desired by someone who is kind to me and others
> 
> be desired by someone who is not selfish, a narcissist
> 
> be desired by someone who is completely committed to our relationship
> 
> be desired by someone who thinks I'm just his type of woman. e.i., I would feel insecure knowing that he just can't get rid of this "thing" he has for long legged blondes and I am a petite asian girl.
> 
> be desired by someone who likes doing things together with me because he likes my company
> 
> be desired by someone who appreciates my cultural background
> 
> be desired by someone who values my opinion and wisdom
> 
> be desired by someone who isn't necessarily a saint, but has strong values/ethical standards
> 
> be desired by someone who communicates openly about how he feels and communicates fairly when we fight. who is willing to say sorry.
> 
> be desired by someone who is financial stable or has potential to be.
> 
> be desired by someone who doesn't have addictions, anger issues or serious baggage they have to work through.


To me it sounds like you want a beta, which you will loose attraction for. poor man


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## mary35

BigBadWolf said:


> I will beat this drum as often as it needs to be beaten but if at ANY time a woman sex drive is not equal to her mans sex drive or exceeding it, then something is missing in the relationship.
> 
> Whatever is missing in the relationship, this piece of the puzzle, this is what this piece of the puzzle is not going to be:
> 
> It is never going to be complaining about sex, negotiating for sex, bartering for sex, doing housework for sex, being a nice guy for sex, giving flowers for sex, "being a changed man" for sex.
> 
> None of these things are going to work, so whether these things are important to you, they should not be important to you thinking it will lead to sex.
> 
> Let me ask, was it about any of these things when you and your woman first met and sex was on fire and incredible?
> 
> You don't need to answer because I already know. Of course it wasn't!
> 
> To make this simple, to (name deleted) and any other good man reading this that wonders what "the secret is to a woman" or any such thing, it is just this:
> 
> 
> *A woman is only going to be a sexual to her man as he is making her feel.*
> 
> 
> Do not make this any more complicated than it needs to be.
> 
> 
> The solution, simple.
> 
> Stop doing things to make your woman feel like she is not sexually attractive.
> 
> Start doing things to make your woman feel like she is sexually attractive.
> 
> 
> So what is hard about this? What is hard is that most men I am learning do not notice what makes a woman feel sexually attractive.
> 
> 
> These things do not make a woman feel attractive:
> 
> Being bribed for sex.
> 
> Being desired by a man that is unwilling to stand up for himself.
> 
> Being desired by a man she doesn't respect (see above).
> 
> Being desired by a man that is unwilling to fight for her.
> 
> Being desired by a man that is not desirable to other women.
> 
> Being desired by a man that is not desirable to himself.
> 
> 
> 
> And these things a woman finds irrestibly attractive:
> 
> Being desired by a man that not only knows what he wants, he is willing to pursue what he wants.
> 
> Being desired by a man that not only will stand up for himself, but seems to enjoy doing so.
> 
> Being desired by a man that commands respect.
> 
> Being desired by a man that has demonstrated he willing fight for her (even if the one he is fighting IS her).
> 
> Being desired by a man that desirable to other women.
> 
> Being desired by a man that is confident and bold and comfortable with himself.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

As a woman I could not agree more!


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## EleGirl

greenpearl said:


> MEM, do a lot of men say things they don't mean to their wives?
> 
> We used to have this friend. She doesn't want to cook, her husband complains to us about her. But in front of her, the man said: Honey, it is OK that you don't cook. It isn't worthwhile for you to cook. Your hour pay is much more than a meal. And she really likes it. They eat out every day, he is frustrated that he doesn't get to eat home-cooked meals, both of them are getting fat eating out.
> 
> Why don't men dare to say what they really want? why are men afraid to tell their wives what they really want and like? Why are they so scared of offending their wives? What do they get? Their women become very spoiled!


Wait she works too. Why is it her job only to cook meals? They don't have to eat out all the time. Surely he could cook. There must be something else around the house of value that she can do instead.


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## EleGirl

maple05 said:


> OK, so in my eternal attempt to be the man of my wife's dreams (I once was, but I let that slip), I am researching and trying to put what I've learned into practice. See "My Man Plan".
> 
> In a late night tucked in bed conversation, I asked what she thought was attractive. Here's how she responded:
> 
> "Politeness (ie being nice, upbeat, and positive)"
> 
> -and
> 
> "Confidence"
> 
> -and also not always talking about our relationship and just doing it...
> 
> I think my research is starting to slowly understand how the female mind works in a relationship...


TAke a look at the books i've linked to in my signature block before for building a passionate marriage. They will help you find healthy ways to discuss needs with your wife, and her with you.


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## Pandakiss

memyselfandi said:


> Here is my dream list...i wonder how many women can relate to this:
> 
> be desired by someone who takes reasonable care of himself and is not significantly overweight (like my husband is)
> 
> be desired by someone who absolutely adores me
> 
> be desired by someone who is kind to me and others
> 
> be desired by someone who is not selfish, a narcissist
> 
> be desired by someone who is completely committed to our relationship
> 
> be desired by someone who thinks I'm just his type of woman.
> 
> be desired by someone who likes doing things together with me because he likes my company
> 
> be desired by someone who appreciates my cultural background
> 
> be desired by someone who values my opinion and wisdom
> 
> be desired by someone who isn't necessarily a saint, but has strong values/ethical standards
> 
> be desired by someone who communicates openly about how he feels and communicates fairly when we fight. who is willing to say sorry.
> 
> be desired by someone who is financial stable or has potential to be.
> 
> be desired by someone who doesn't have addictions, anger issues or serious baggage they have to work through.
> 
> That would be great, except everyone has baggage. It's just a matter of if it's a carry on or a five piece matching set.
> 
> Everyone DOES have baggage...it's just out choice on how we choose to deal with that baggage.
> 
> be desired by someone who takes reasonable care of himself and is not significantly overweight (like my husband is)
> 
> be desired by someone who absolutely adores me
> 
> be desired by someone who is kind to me and others
> 
> be desired by someone who is not selfish, a narcissist
> 
> be desired by someone who is completely committed to our relationship
> 
> be desired by someone who likes doing things together with me because he likes my company
> 
> be desired by someone who values my opinion and wisdom
> 
> be desired by someone who isn't necessarily a saint, but has strong values/ethical standards
> 
> be desired by someone who communicates openly about how he feels and communicates fairly when we fight. who is willing to say sorry.
> 
> be desired by someone who is financial stable or has potential to be.
> 
> be desired by someone who doesn't have addictions, anger issues or serious baggage they have to work through.





i think its a great list. nothing beta about it. i want to be desired/loved

by someone who is wanting to desire me and love me.

i want someone as into me as i them...how is that beta???

i know beyond the shadow of a doubt, will not tolerate any feelings from a person or persons on drugs, and dosent know/understand their limit with drinking, and i will under no circumstances will i give any "feelings" of love and compassion, understanding...ect

i will not love or pretend to take feelings into consideration if my husband wont talk to me.

i could go through the whole list, but i would just be saying the same things again.

its not beta, there is nothing beta about any of this. 

if a spouse was doing the total opposite of these things, why would you love them, or like them...or wish to spend any time with them at all?????


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## princetonwu

*Re: what's attractive...fear and desire*



MEM11363 said:


> Helpful: The golden rule in all its various forms. She does something you think is just wrong you ask in a polite way "have I ever done that to you?" odds are you have. Let her talk you might learn something. If you haven't she might realize she was over the top and apologize. If you get the blowoff - which is an "irritated" no, without further comment you press the point. "would you be ok if I did that to you?"


I'm a new user and i know this is such an old thread. This is a very useful guide, but my wife does something that completely irritates me (being cold, aloof, standoff-ish), and I know that I don't do the same to her. However, when I tell her that what she does irritates me, and that I would, and never have, done such thing to her, her reply is "Well, we are different, and you would have to just accept that ." If I did ask her if it would be ok if I did that to her, she probably would say "yes" (because I tried to act the same way to her (on purpose) but instead of drawing her closer, it pushes her away even more. 

Any suggestions?


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## Deejo

*Re: Re: what's attractive...fear and desire*



princetonwu said:


> I'm a new user and i know this is such an old thread. This is a very useful guide, but my wife does something that completely irritates me (being cold, aloof, standoff-ish), and I know that I don't do the same to her. However, when I tell her that what she does irritates me, and that I would, and never have, done such thing to her, her reply is "Well, we are different, and you would have to just accept that ." If I did ask her if it would be ok if I did that to her, she probably would say "yes" (because I tried to act the same way to her (on purpose) but instead of drawing her closer, it pushes her away even more.
> 
> Any suggestions?


Next time she is annoyed or displeased by your behavior or a choice you have made, simply smile and say: "Well, we are different, and you will just have to accept that."

Here is my position in brief.

Presuming you have a touch of nice guy syndrome, you need to learn to become comfortable with other peoples discomfort. It isn't about you ... and even if it is, its their problem to deal with.

Sounds like your wife knows how to maintain control in conflict. You need to do the same.

Check out MEM's thermostat thread. You can find it in the stickied thread at the top of the mens clubhouse.


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## 2ntnuf

MEM said something about never begging for sex. I think the key to that is more along the lines of rejection. If you initiate and are turned down, it's time to talk, make sure clear boundaries are set, and all is understood, and then make a plan of attack. If there is no plan made to work on it. It's time to talk to a marriage counselor. If that doesn't work, it's time to file for divorce. Time limits vary with the individuals. 

Interesting thread. Thanks.


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## WorkingOnMe

2ntnuf said:


> Interesting thread. Thanks.


OP posted this 4 years ago and hasn't been on TAM for 2 years. Have you been drinking the bong water again?


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## MEM2020

Occasional rejection is part of life. 

I do think it's inconsiderate to initiate when your partner is clearly in a bad place. 

But if they are in an ok/good mood and you initiate their tone shouldn't be dismissive or cruel. 

If rejection becomes common, you ought to directly ask why that's happening. 





2ntnuf said:


> MEM said something about never begging for sex. I think the key to that is more along the lines of rejection. If you initiate and are turned down, it's time to talk, make sure clear boundaries are set, and all is understood, and then make a plan of attack. If there is no plan made to work on it. It's time to talk to a marriage counselor. If that doesn't work, it's time to file for divorce. Time limits vary with the individuals.
> 
> Interesting thread. Thanks.


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## 2ntnuf

WorkingOnMe said:


> OP posted this 4 years ago and hasn't been on TAM for 2 years. Have you been drinking the bong water again?


hahaha 

MEM knows what's going on.


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