# My marriage is falling apart because I am not satisfied with our sex life



## HopelessGuy (Jun 19, 2013)

My wife is the total package, except...

She is smart, beautiful, hard-working, cleanly, responsible, moral, my family loves her, but...


From the first time we had sex I knew we were sexually incompatible. I'm pretty conservative in bed, but she makes me look like sexcapades. I'm a seducer who enjoys showing her how attracted I am to her, and she deals out rejection like other people screen calls from telemarketers.

For the first year of our relationship, I did not complain, because she had lied about her inexperience, saying instead that she was a rape victim to explain why she was the way she was. 

That said, my dissatisfaction prevented me from really going all in committed to the relationship at the time.

A year later she came clean that she was not a rape victim, just a virgin, but by then it was too late. We were too far down the road.

Shortly after I told her that I needed more from her sexually, and she cried with shame and promised me things would get better. Instead they got worse. 




My needs are minimal. We have sex about once a week, and I'm fine with the frequency. I'm not complaining about the amount of sex we have, just the type.

She is not at all adventurous or experimental. She has a sex toy which she refuses to use in front of me, even though she has always known that watching her pleasure herself would be my only semi-kinky turn on. She never has, even for a few seconds. When she bought it she "allowed" me to use it on her once, climaxed, got angry with herself and me for doing it, mumbled something about "now I gave you everything", and we never used it again. 

Once a week I will ask her if she will "allow me" to go down on her. 9 out of 10 times she says no. I ask her if she will occasionally ask me to do this for her, and she never does.

I try to be spontaneous, and a few times I was up before her and tried to kiss and caress her awake ten minutes before her alarm to fool around before work, and she used an extra nasty voice to reject me saying that she needed to sleep more even though she had been asleep over 8 hours already.

She said she needed more kissing during sex during one argument, so I said "no problem" and now she has no complaints about the act itself.

The rejection is the worst part. Whereas in the beginning, when we were still new to each other and passionate I could seduce her out of it. Now she gets downright nasty. She will not allow me to kiss her or touch her in any way that might make her aroused. When she's not being outright nasty about it, she's rescheduling sex -- seemingly just to do it and exercise control -- for a time later that day or the next that invariably never comes.

Part of that is my bad. I gotta ask twice? Not likely.



The crazy thing is that I know she enjoys sex. She has never not climaxed at least once in ten years. Sometimes she climaxes so hard that she literally weeps uncontrollably.

Now there are no more tears of shame when we talk about why she is like that. Instead she makes it about me, and everything that has nothing to do with sex. She points out that sometimes I leave "my socks on the floor" or some such. She said today that sometimes I don't take the garbage out at night when she asks, and instead I take it in the morning. WTF does that have to do with anything?!?

This infuriates me because she is attempting to make parity between the dissatisfaction she feels when I don't remember to empty the dishwasher to what a decade of disappointment, pain, and humiliation feels like.

She complains that after ten years of monogamy she needs more commitment and more of a bond before better sex. In reality, our sex life is the cause of the above, and not a result of it. She is just setting a nebulous bar that she can always move to avoid confronting her hang ups.

Most infuriating is that I know what it takes to instantly fix the situation, as once I saw her make an effort to be something like I wanted to her to be. I just have to leave her.

Last year I attempted to leave her, and a few weeks later we had lunch together and she asked me to go home with her. I didn't want to, and I told her so, but she kept insisting and I did. It wasn't lust, it's just even harder for me to say "no" to her than it is for her to just say "yes" to me.

That day she was a half-a-sex-cat in the sack. A few weeks later she asked me to come home and stay with her because she was having some personal issues, and I did, and never left again. Since then I've been all in on the relationship. I really began to try and see it as an eternal union, and not just waiting for the other shoe to drop. 

The good sex never returned though.

Earlier this year we almost split up again, and I finally told her that sex is important to me. I could never admit it to her before because she is good at making me feel dirty for having even my basic sexual needs, and I was always too embarrassed.

We didn't split up, but nothing has changed.

This morning it came to a head. I was teasing her about coming home for a "nooner" as I would be working from home that day. She said she didn't have time, and I said that must mean she's not taking a lunch break since she can climax in under 3 minutes.

To be clear, she knew I was teasing. I would not expect her to actually do it, as she never has. A few times I've joked like this before, and she would just say "maybe" and then forget about it all together. This time she used her nasty rejection voice to say something to the effect of "Gimme a break, stop this s**t".

I just snapped. I went from joking and smiling to furious in 1 second. I told her that if she could not find it in herself to feel shame for not being able to satisfy the minimal sexual needs of her husband, then she could at least not be nasty about it, and it escalated from there.



Should I have any reason to believe that she will ever change? She actually told me a few times years ago that "this is how I am, I'm not gonna change". She has since said she misspoke and never said it again. It's becoming clear that she probably did not misspeak at all.

Is there anything I can do, or is it time to accept that this tiger will never change her stripes?


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## HopelessGuy (Jun 19, 2013)

And to be clear: I am not claiming I am the perfect husband. I can be moderately messy, though I generally clean up after myself. I can be mean when we argue. Once a week, or rarely twice, I will go out and close a bar with some married friends. I'll come home drunk (no driving), and I know she doesn't like to see me like that. It's not that I'm a bad drunk -- quite the opposite actually -- but her father is an alcoholic so: I drink and she gets abusive. For the first 8 years of the relationship I was never all the way there emotionally (because the sex life made me hesitant to commit, as per above). I can be forgetful and irresponsible to some extent.

I'm far from perfect but one thing you cannot say about me is that I'm a selfish lover.


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## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

HopelessGuy said:


> From the first time we had sex I knew we were sexually incompatible.





> For the first 8 years of the relationship I was never all the way there emotionally (because the sex life made me hesitant to commit, as per above)


I don't think you can get any help here, only questions about why anyone would get married in such circumstances.


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## HopelessGuy (Jun 19, 2013)

I thought things would get better.

She told me things would get better.

I think I see where this is going. You guys probably hear this crap all the time. We are so done, aren't we?

I really do lover her deeply. It kills me that she's like that.

It's true was they say I guess: Sex is 10% of a marriage when it's good, and 90% when it's bad.


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## HopelessGuy (Jun 19, 2013)

If I felt that she was not attracted to me, or that her sex drive was lower than mine, then I could see why the situation would be hopeless.

She does enjoy sex. She seems to enjoy her climaxes more than I do. It's not like it's a chore, either. It just takes her a few minutes.

I'm hoping against hope that there's something I can do.

I really thing it's just a combination of a controlling personality and sexual hangups, and there might be something I can do short of leaving her.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

HopelessGuy said:


> I thought things would get better.
> 
> She told me things would get better.
> 
> ...


Mr. Guy,

Welcome to TAM!

It is good for you to come to TAM for answers, rather than resorting to domestic violence. I hope, that many past and present discussions in TAM will enlighten you. I am confident to say that TAM is a treasure trove of important information and sound advice by those who has "been there, done that"..

I would recommend you to _read_ these threads carefully (yes, each and every post, especially the OP's) to gain further insight about "sexless marriage" syndrome from both sides.

This is a success story, required readings for both men and women (thank you Mrs. GettingIt!)
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-ma...-now-how-i-get-my-husband-trust-me-again.html


There are some more good advice in this threads below:
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/83665-how-happy-you.html

This below is a story of a man who finally had enough and file for divorce. But not before making very very serious efforts for years. 
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/67022-ld-wife-has-turned-me-off.html

This one is a sad story, required readings for men who can't let go.
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/67027-cruel-unfeeling-wife.html

Well, surely these are enough reading materials for a weekend or three. Happy reading!


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## HopelessGuy (Jun 19, 2013)

john_lord_b3 said:


> Mr. Guy,
> Welcome to TAM!
> 
> It is good for you to come to TAM for answers, rather than resorting to domestic violence.[/q]
> ...


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## RFguy (Feb 17, 2013)

OP, do yourself a favor and end your misery (and hers) by leaving this relationship.

I read your story and save for a few minor details it is like a copy-paste of my story. 

In my relationship I had a few more issues, maybe you have them too but simply didn't mention them. 

For example, she was pathologically jealous of me. Whenever another woman would talk or simply glance at me, she would start shouting or give me the silent treatment. If I reacted she would brush me off by saying she was just joking all along and that I am stupid for not getting a simple joke.

At other times I would mention something rather innocent (sexual or not) and she would instantly go to FULL SEETHING RAGE mode and start shouting at me.

Like you, initially I was seeing only the lack of good sex. But now I realize she had a whole host of other issues, and the lack of sex was just a symptom. And yes, she would swear up and down that she LOVED sex. But she wouldn't follow through.

I eventually decided I had enough and broke free after 3 years of misery. I am alone now but a lot happier. I am just taking care of myself.


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## Maneo (Dec 4, 2012)

Try some marriage counseling even if you have before, try finding someone who may specialize in marital sexual problems.


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## ubercoolpanda (Sep 11, 2012)

Give her an ultimatum. Tell her she should go with you for sex therapy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HopelessGuy (Jun 19, 2013)

RFguy said:


> OP, do yourself a favor and end your misery (and hers) by leaving this relationship.
> 
> I read your story and save for a few minor details it is like a copy-paste of my story.
> 
> ...


Not far off.

Mine went through the jealous phase for a while, but since I didn't go out partying at that time and basically spent all my free time with her alone, that just would not play. 

She is not psychotic, but she is definitely neurotic in other ways.

Instead she morphed into being a shamer. After telling me thing would get better, and when things never did, she'd just shame me by telling me that she knew I was "only with her for sex".

Of course, this is ridiculous. Unlike her, I've had sex with others. I know what good sex feels like (emotionally and physically). I'm with her despite of sex, and not because of it.

After a few more years, that wouldn't play either.

Now it's (and yes I am picking the worst line from today) "sometimes I ask you take the garbage out on garbage day at night, and you don't take it out until the morning." 

(You think that sounds absurd? It's worse than you think. We have a dumpster that gets emptied for us. The garbage can go out any day.)



RFguy said:


> At other times I would mention something rather innocent (sexual or not) and she would instantly go to FULL SEETHING RAGE mode and start shouting at me.


Again, this seems to be a difference of degree and not kind.

Mine has two gears: controlling and "flip the f**k out".

Plus, I'm almost as stubborn as she, so her attempts to control everything invariably turn out to be counterproductive. It never works.

SPOILER ALERT: Ruining our sex lives did not make me pick up my socks more. I am less messy today then when I met her, but it is certainly not because I do it for ****ty sex. I don't know what kind of John she thinks I am.



RFguy said:


> Like you, initially I was seeing only the lack of good sex. But now I realize she had a whole host of other issues, and the lack of sex was just a symptom. And yes, she would swear up and down that she LOVED sex. But she wouldn't follow through.
> 
> I eventually decided I had enough and broke free after 3 years of misery. I am alone now but a lot happier. I am just taking care of myself.


Definitely other issues. I have some education in abnormal psychology, and while I can't diagnose her, I definitely recognize symptoms.

She needs meds (forget therapy, she's too stubborn) but the way she was brought up this is simply not gonna happen.



Maneo said:


> Try some marriage counseling even if you have before, try finding someone who may specialize in marital sexual problems.


Lols. I'm still trying to get her to "experiment" with Saint John's Wort in lieu of pro help.



ubercoolpanda said:


> Give her an ultimatum. Tell her she should go with you for sex therapy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not likely, my friend, but I will bring it up.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

I agree that you both need MC. There's probably more to this than you realize. It's troubling that she lied to you about being raped.



HopelessGuy said:


> I told her that if she could not find it in herself to feel shame for not being able to satisfy the minimal sexual needs of her husband...


Not cool. You should not want her to feel shame. That is unhealthy. Anyway, it seems she already feels some, and I'll bet that's making things worse and taking them further away from what you want. Maybe try to see this as a problem to be solved together, not something she should be vilified for or made to feel ashamed of.


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## HopelessGuy (Jun 19, 2013)

soulpotato said:


> I agree that you both need MC. There's probably more to this than you realize. It's troubling that she lied to you about being raped.


Worse still, she tells me that the only reason she lied about that is because she was afraid I would brag to my friends about having nailed a virgin.

I am nothing like that, but she didn't know at the time.

I ask her why she didn't just lie less: say that you're not a virgin, but just you only had one boyfriend or something.

She responds with word-salad to that, but I already know the answer.

If I think that she's a rape survivor then I can't blame her for being how she is.

If she lies a little less, and says she's inexperienced without saying that she's a virgin, then we would've have to confront that from day 1.

Confessing a year later she gets me after I've already fallen for my poor, innocent, beautiful, ostensible rape survivor.

I don't know why this girl loved me. I guess it's probably because she wasn't used to not being fallen over. However, as a result of the foundation of lies that she allowed us to build our relationship upon I now resent her for "roping me in" and "tricking me".

I harbor this resentment to this day, cuz I guess it's easier than blaming myself.



soulpotato said:


> Not cool. You should not want her to feel shame. That is unhealthy. Anyway, it seems she already feels some, and I'll bet that's making things worse and taking them further away from what you want. Maybe try to see this as a problem to be solved together, not something she should be vilified for or made to feel ashamed of.



Definitely not cool.

Definitely cruel.

I hate about myself how she can make me emotional. No one else has that effect on me. I hate what a jerk I'm capable of being behind this, and I hate how she always knows what buttons to push to make me miserable like her.

But it's also true that our sex life is a shame, and she should be ashamed. If she were ashamed like the "success stories" I've been reading, then we would be in another place right now. Unfortunately, shame morphs to blame in my house. It's easier that way.

She tells me that she needs more of a bond and I can't help but stare at her incredulously... and then I can't help but flip-the-f**k-out too (never violently or abusively though. We rarely hit each other in this relationship, but when we do I am on the receiving end. Don't pity me though. My girl doesn't know how to throw a punch.)

I realize now that she is punishing us for me not committing to her faster, which I did not do because how do you tell a fake rape victim that you and she are not sexually compatible?

You don't. You just try to be patient and hope for better days as you help to "fix her".

It wasn't cool, and you ask anyone else and they'll tell you I'm a cool guy. That said, it's hard to be cool when you're seething in resentment.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

HopelessGuy said:


> Worse still, she tells me that the only reason she lied about that is because she was afraid I would brag to my friends about having nailed a virgin.
> 
> I am nothing like that, but she didn't know at the time.
> 
> ...


Mr. Guy, I think you should really seriously considering a divorce, because a marriage based on lie and punishment is not a relationship, it is a lifelong commitment to being tortured.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

HopelessGuy said:


> Worse still, she tells me that the only reason she lied about that is because she was afraid I would brag to my friends about having nailed a virgin.
> 
> I am nothing like that, but she didn't know at the time.
> 
> ...


It sounds like she definitely has some issues in the background there that are affecting your relationship. Do you know the answers for sure, or are you assuming? When you say word salad, do you mean that you don't know what she's trying to communicate, or do you mean that she's trying to dodge the question? Or something else?



HopelessGuy said:


> If I think that she's a rape survivor then I can't blame her for being how she is.
> 
> If she lies a little less, and says she's inexperienced without saying that she's a virgin, then we would've have to confront that from day 1.


I don't think her lying to you is good. Definitely a bad way to start out, especially to let it go on for so long. You must've felt pretty betrayed by that. But I also don't think wanting to blame her or tell her she's wrong is going to help things. She's just going to shut down and get defensive on you (which seems to have already happened).



HopelessGuy said:


> I don't know why this girl loved me. I guess it's probably because she wasn't used to not being fallen over. However, as a result of the foundation of lies that she allowed us to build our relationship upon I now resent her for "roping me in" and "tricking me".


You should ask her. "Why do you love me?" Though that's always a tough question to answer, because we can list traits all day long, but in the end, it's the unique combination that makes the person that's what we really love, not necessarily that he's "nice" or she's "thoughtful". I can see how you would feel resentful and angry about being lied to. 



HopelessGuy said:


> I harbor this resentment to this day, cuz I guess it's easier than blaming myself.


Don't blame yourself. Don't blame her, either. You should both be on the same team, right? So if your approach to her and the problem reflects that, maybe she will relax a little and be more willing to work with you. But I do think MC and even some IC for her is a must.



HopelessGuy said:


> Definitely not cool.
> 
> Definitely cruel.
> 
> I hate about myself how she can make me emotional. No one else has that effect on me. I hate what a jerk I'm capable of being behind this, and I hate how she always knows what buttons to push to make me miserable like her.


But just remember, you're still responsible for you, your own actions and words, even if she provokes you. 



HopelessGuy said:


> But it's also true that our sex life is a shame, and she should be ashamed. If she were ashamed like the "success stories" I've been reading, then we would be in another place right now. Unfortunately, shame morphs to blame in my house. It's easier that way.


Shame and blame are absolutely not going to help you. They're toxic. 



HopelessGuy said:


> She tells me that she needs more of a bond and I can't help but stare at her incredulously... and then I can't help but flip-the-f**k-out too (never violently or abusively though. We rarely hit each other in this relationship, but when we do I am on the receiving end. Don't pity me though. My girl doesn't know how to throw a punch.)


That sounds like an attempt at communication. Instead of getting angry and flipping out, maybe you should try to understand what that means to her. What does she think is missing? What does she mean when she says she needs more of a bond? Try to get her to express that concretely, present it in a way that gives you somewhere to start. Yikes, violence isn't good.  Yep, she needs IC.



HopelessGuy said:


> I realize now that she is punishing us for me not committing to her faster, which I did not do because how do you tell a fake rape victim that you and she are not sexually compatible?


Has she said that she's punishing you for that? There is a workable margin with regard to sexual compatibility...worth the extra effort if you really want to be with that particular person. But she has to work with you, too.



HopelessGuy said:


> You don't. You just try to be patient and hope for better days as you help to "fix her".
> 
> It wasn't cool, and you ask anyone else and they'll tell you I'm a cool guy. That said, it's hard to be cool when you're seething in resentment.


You can't fix her, but she can fix herself (with the help of IC). I think you guys need some direct, honest, non-inflammatory communication. No blame, no shaming, just honestly trying to figure out what the needs, thoughts, and feelings are, and how some compromise can be reached.

I understand that it's a challenge, and I'm sorry you're in this situation. But anger and blaming won't resolve it.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Clearly this isn't about the trash. Something else is going on, and you guys need third party help to find out wrhat it is. Tell her you're visiting a lawyer or a marriage counselor, her choice. If she chooses MC but doesn't put forth full effort, it's probably best to walk away. Someone that makes what is obviously stupid excuses has other issues they haven't faced and don't want you discuss.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RFguy (Feb 17, 2013)

HopelessGuy, looks like our women are very similar.

If I wanted to describe her in one word, "controlling" would be the most suitable. Every minor or major decision or issue was "my way or the highway". I am not stubborn at all and had no problem bending backwards to her will in all subjects EXCEPT sex. It is the only area I won't take **** from anyone. My assumption before getting into that relationship was that we would have mind-blowing sex and lots of it. Since she couldn't deliver even adequate sex, we had many big fights very early in the relationship.

In my case she was the untidy one so she couldn't say anything on that. However she had no problem inventing imagined wrong-doings from me to scorn me. 

And yes, she would often give me the "you want me only for sex" line and the similar "you have sex with me just because I am the nearest available"

Actually this was the last straw that made me leave once and for all. I called her on some other behavior, unrelated to sex and as usual she lashed out on me. She said many, many hurtful things and lies and on closing her tirade, she fed me the "you want me only for sex" line.

In reality, I hadn't initiated sex in months, so it became clear as daylight that there is ZERO chance of ever fixing this relationship.


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## HopelessGuy (Jun 19, 2013)

Fqu


john_lord_b3 said:


> Mr. Guy, I think you should really seriously considering a divorce, because a marriage based on lie and punishment is not a relationship, it is a lifelong commitment to being tortured.


After my first day on this forum, I'm even more hopeless, but that is not a bad thing.

I need to man up and do us both a favor.

If/when she meets someone else and fixes all her BS issues behind a decade of my pain and humiliation then good for her.

I'll always love her. We'll always have a bond. It would be big of me to set her free.



soulpotato said:


> It sounds like she definitely has some issues in the background there that are affecting your relationship. Do you know the answers for sure, or are you assuming? When you say word salad, do you mean that you don't know what she's trying to communicate, or do you mean that she's trying to dodge the question? Or something else?


I mean this:

Whereas in the beginning she would be ashamed and promise me better, now she just blames me.

This is true for any complaint I have in our relationship, sexual or not.

"What about that s**t that you did in 2006?"



soulpotato said:


> I don't think her lying to you is good. Definitely a bad way to start out, especially to let it go on for so long. You must've felt pretty betrayed by that.


I'm only realizing now how betrayed I should have felt, and how betrayed I was.

I already loved the girl by that time.

I think I'm I was infatuated at the time by the revaluation that this gorgeous, smart, hard working, ostensibly perfect girl had just told me that she'd saved herself for me.

And why not? At the time, I thought things would only get better. 



soulpotato said:


> But I also don't think wanting to blame her or tell her she's wrong is going to help things. She's just going to shut down and get defensive on you (which seems to have already happened).


You're right. That said, it's easy to not get emotional when you're on the outside looking in. This is a decade of my life. 

In some senses I deserved better, but maybe in others I didn't.



soulpotato said:


> You should ask her. "Why do you love me?" Though that's always a tough question to answer, because we can list traits all day long, but in the end, it's the unique combination that makes the person that's what we really love, not necessarily that he's "nice" or she's "thoughtful". I can see how you would feel resentful and angry about being lied to.


She fell for me because I played hard to get, and she wasn't used to that.

I wasn't even playing, TBH.

I was a stronger man before she crushed my psyche. 

However, my experience never prepared me for a year of dating a (pretend) rape victim.

If you're a man's man pretending not to be a softie, then you can easily get sucked in by that.



soulpotato said:


> Don't blame yourself. Don't blame her, either. You should both be on the same team, right?


You're right, and when it comes to anything other than our sex-life we do make good teammates (though she likes to complain otherwise when making up excuses for a decade of hangups and control issues).



soulpotato said:


> So if your approach to her and the problem reflects that, maybe she will relax a little and be more willing to work with you. But I do think MC and even some IC for her is a must.


IC is a non-starter for her, for basically the same reasons that our sex-life has been a non-starter.

Old-world dogma and stigma make IC an impossibility.

I've been wanting to bring up MC before I joined, but now I'm thinking that's a waste too. She may get better, but I doubt she'll ever be who I always wished she could be.



soulpotato said:


> But just remember, you're still responsible for you, your own actions and words, even if she provokes you.


You're right. 



soulpotato said:


> Shame and blame are absolutely not going to help you. They're toxic.
> 
> That sounds like an attempt at communication. Instead of getting angry and flipping out, maybe you should try to understand what that means to her. What does she think is missing? What does she mean when she says she needs more of a bond? Try to get her to express that concretely, present it in a way that gives you somewhere to start.


We have a chicken v. egg thing going on.

She resent me for not committing to her better. I resent her for both lying to me ("tricking me" as I see it), and also for not making up for it after the confession.



soulpotato said:


> Yikes, violence isn't good.  Yep, she needs IC.


I don't want to demonize her. You can count the times she's attempted to strike me on one hand over ten years. IDK if she ever landed one, and I know she never hurt me.

I can push her buttons too. I provoke her too, albeit in a less psychologically damaging way (at least from my perspective).



soulpotato said:


> Has she said that she's punishing you for that? There is a workable margin with regard to sexual compatibility...worth the extra effort if you really want to be with that particular person. But she has to work with you, too.


She hasn't said it like that, but I know it's the case.

After 7-years I didn't want to marry her, but I had to for immigration reasons. At the time I thought that she would be naturalized by now, and I could walk away without guilt for "wasting her feminine youth".

I've apologized for that time and again, but she still resents me for it.

On the other hand, I resent her for not having tried it my way even for a week.

You think I would have committed to her better if she could have fulfilled my very minimal sexual needs even once?

I promise I would have.



soulpotato said:


> You can't fix her, but she can fix herself (with the help of IC). I think you guys need some direct, honest, non-inflammatory communication. No blame, no shaming, just honestly trying to figure out what the needs, thoughts, and feelings are, and how some compromise can be reached.
> 
> I understand that it's a challenge, and I'm sorry you're in this situation. But anger and blaming won't resolve it.


That's gonna take a week or more. I'm gonna need to read posts on this forum and just stew for a while. This is like a support group that I've always neeeded.




lifeistooshort said:


> Clearly this isn't about the trash. Something else is going on, and you guys need third party help to find out wrhat it is. Tell her you're visiting a lawyer or a marriage counselor, her choice. If she chooses MC but doesn't put forth full effort, it's probably best to walk away. Someone that makes what is obviously stupid excuses has other issues they haven't faced and don't want you discuss.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


See above re: what is really going on, but I like what you say about ultimatum time.

Q: How does a controlling hungup wife ruin a sex-life even more?

A: By associating sex with municipal garbage removal.







Again, what kills me is that her body loves me, but her mind resents me. We talk about her genetalia in the third person. I always found it kinda cute, but now I find it kinda ironic.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Sorry, but I have to ask. Could you not tell she was a virgin the first time you two had sex? If not, are you 100% sure that she was? The kind of toxic shame you describe her having about sex in general would be a red flag for some sort of sexual abuse. Perhaps in childhood?

At any rate, you don't seem to like your wife very much and sort of seem to be getting some emotional payoff from shaming her. You also sound like you've been emotionally unavailable for much of your marriage. None of that is healthy for either of you, no matter whose fault all of this is (and I think you probably have contributed to your share of the bad marriage). 

So, either leave or find a MC who also deals with sex therapy. But if you do the latter please do not go in there assuming that the goal is "fixing" your "broken" wife. She has problems. You sound like you have problems. And it's your marriage that is broken.


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## HopelessGuy (Jun 19, 2013)

Rowan said:


> and sort of seem to be getting some emotional payoff from shaming her.


This deserve a better answer than I gave.

I've always felt ashamed that sex matters to me. I could only admit it until recently, in my early 30s. I was embarrassed to be called a "typical guy".

Between my OP and your post I've been browsing the forum.

I see that "typical women" have the same problem I have.

I always knew I wasn't a pervert for wanting a sex-life unsullied by BS.

Now, I feel validated, and it only pisses me off more.

I'm not a pervert. I'm not a "typical guy". I'm not even HD (as you guys say). I'm just a human being, maybe even LD on average, who has basic human being desires to some normal extent.

I married a virgin who pretended to be a rape survivor, and at some point between her lie and her confession I put her in charge of our sex life.

To my great discredit, I'm blaming her.

To my credit, I'm also telling you guys that I should blame myself for not cutting this off a decade ago. I'm a ***** for that. 

I really did love her too much to leave her, but I'm thinking now that you guys could help me with that.


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## FemBot (May 1, 2013)

My H is not perfect, forgets stuff and can be lazy and I still have sex with him 3-4x a week or more. She's using all of this as an excuse to not be intimate with you. There is really nothing you can do because nothing you do makes her change.

Sometimes loving the other person is not enough. I am so sorry you are dealing with this


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## HopelessGuy (Jun 19, 2013)

FemBot said:


> My H is not perfect, forgets stuff and can be lazy and I still have sex with him 3-4x a week or more. She's using all of this as an excuse to not be intimate with you. *There is really nothing you can do because nothing you do makes her change.*


She told me as much years ago, several times (though she walks it back now).

I realize now what an idiot I was, and what a disservice I did both of us, for not believing her.



FemBot said:


> Sometimes loving the other person is not enough. I am so sorry you are dealing with this


"Thank you for your sympathy" does not begin to express how much I appreciate that.

It's nice to know that I'm not dirty or perverted for wanting a normal sex-life that has nothing to do with the laundry or 2006.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Your wife will not change.
However the situation can change.

The idea about you not picking up your socks is not a bunch of junk. Her need for sock's not on the floor and garbage out is excactly the same level of importance to her that sex is to you. This is biology. Men are biolgically designed to produce children. Women are biologically designed to care for children. The way you produce children is sex. The way you care for chidren is managing a dwelling.

What's important to you in life is different than what is important to your wife in life. You are made to want sex under almost any set of conditions while a woman is made to want sex under only a certain set of conditions.

The summary of it is a woman needs to feel safe enough to have sex with you, and unsafe if she does not have sex with you. Many things in your posts speak directly to these two sides of the coin.


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## HopelessGuy (Jun 19, 2013)

I accidentally overwrote the rest of my response to you post:



Rowan said:


> Sorry, but I have to ask. Could you not tell she was a virgin the first time you two had sex? If not, are you 100% sure that she was?


I saw blood on the sheets, and she gave a plausible explanation. 

One year later, when she confessed that she was a virgin and not a rape survivor when she met, she brought up her "cherry" on the sheets.



Rowan said:


> The kind of toxic shame you describe her having about sex in general would be a red flag for some sort of sexual abuse. Perhaps in childhood?


Who knows?

Now that you mention it, and now that I'm thinking about it, perhaps both things are not mutually exclusive in some way. 



Rowan said:


> At any rate, you don't seem to like your wife very much


You're wrong about that.

I sincerely love her



Rowan said:


> and sort of seem to be getting some emotional payoff from shaming her.


Answered in previous reply




Rowan said:


> You also sound like you've been emotionally unavailable for much of your marriage. None of that is healthy for either of you, no matter whose fault all of this is (and I think you probably have contributed to your share of the bad marriage).
> 
> So, either leave or find a MC who also deals with sex therapy. But if you do the latter please do not go in there assuming that the goal is "fixing" your "broken" wife. She has problems. You sound like you have problems. And it's your marriage that is broken.


I am not pretending to be perfect.

Occasionally I drink too much. Sometimes I don't empty the dishwasher when I should. I can be messy, just like when she met me. Sometimes I don't pick up my socks. I take her out all the time, but I hardly ever give her flowers.

I am a very flawed and imperfect human being.

I am so flawed it's almost easier to talk about what I don't do:

--Cheat
--Abuse
--Lie
--Steal
--Leave the lights on.

Correction: I do occasionally leave the lights on. That's a big deal in my house.


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## HopelessGuy (Jun 19, 2013)

Hicks said:


> Your wife will not change.
> However the situation can change.
> 
> The idea about you not picking up your socks is not a bunch of junk. Her need for sock's not on the floor and garbage out is excactly the same level of importance to her that sex is to you.


Run tell that to the woman who experiences rejection and can also afford a domestic assistant.

Let her know that sex is not important to her because there are no socks on the ground.



Rowan said:


> This is biology. Men are biolgically designed to produce children. Women are biologically designed to care for children. The way you produce children is sex. The way you care for chidren is managing a dwelling.


Do you really think that accurately describes the human condition?'

I don't think it's that simple.



Rowan said:


> What's important to you in life is different than what is important to your wife in life. You are made to want sex under almost any set of conditions


Huh?

I'm not a tourist in this life.

I've rejected sex many times over the last decade from women who are not my wife, and under many conditions. Most of the females on the other side were not "nesting" either.



Rowan said:


> while a woman is made to want sex under only a certain set of conditions.
> 
> The summary of it is a woman needs to feel safe enough to have sex with you, and unsafe if she does not have sex with you. Many things in your posts speak directly to these two sides of the coin.


I cannot accept that sexual rejection is the same as "empty the dishwasher" rejection.

There is no parity there.

This reads like bro-science, specifically bro-anthropology.

If that sounds harsh, please cut me some slack.

I've had a bad day.

EDIT: By the way, I want kids more than she does. Be sure to add that to your "anecdata". I don't appreciate you telling me about my human nature. Maybe you are biased by yours.

EDIT II: If you wan't some real science: gender and sexuality fall on a spectrum and men and women often overlap. The influence of culture cannot be underestimated, just ask Margret Mead.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Your wife sounds very similar to mine. There is always a reason sex doesn't happen. I have heard it all. I have even heard the "you don't take out the garbage" line!

I tried for a long time to crack the code. In the last 6 months I have realized it is pointless. Even if you solve the current excuse, there will always be another.

Like you, I do not claim to be perfect. On the other hand, I did make a concerted effort to listen to my wife's complaints about me over the course of 16 months of marriage counseling. I made a geniuine effort to address the aspects of myself she said were lacking. I did not succeed in making myself a perfect person, but I do believe I made some significant and lasting improvements. Yet our sex life did not get better and in fact only got worse.

At the end of the day, it seems that your wife (like mine) may not really be interested in having sex with you, except as a means to gain power in the relationship.

You are fortunate in that it sounds as though you do not have children. My advice would be to get out of this situation before that happens.


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## ginger-snap (Apr 10, 2013)

Did she confess the non-rape before or after marriage? 



> After 7-years I didn't want to marry her, but I had to for immigration reasons. At the time I thought that she would be naturalized by now, and I could walk away without guilt for "wasting her feminine youth".
> 
> I've apologized for that time and again, but she still resents me for it.


This quote baffles me. You didn't "want" to marry her, but you "had" to marry her in order to keep her in the country?? You feel guilty for wasting her "feminine youth"?!

She should have residency (a.k.a., green card) by now. She doesn't have to be naturalized for you to leave her if you are wanting her to remain in the US. It really sounds like this was not a marriage for love, and it sounds like there is resentment on both sides. Are you sure she didn't marry you just for residency?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Hopeless Guy...it sounds pretty hopeless.

You need to spend some time with yourself to find out why you allowed this to happen in your life, so you can move on. You have said a few times now "I loved her too much to leave", but that isn't the real reason (it is what everyone says, but it it never the real reason).


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## thatcleanhippyguy (May 17, 2013)

I am also new on this forum, married for 2 years. I've never been comfortable sharing my private life online so it's been a pretty gradual revealing process and based on my prior posts, I wouldn't be surprised if some people thought I was full of crap, but listen...

I am practically in the same boat as you. My wife has very little experience in the bedroom compared to myself so from the very start I knew we were sexually incompatible, and by a lot. It's tough because my wife is the most amazing person ever, does literally everything and more then I ever wanted. I thought she would change after we married, I was so wrong.

Now I am realizing I have 3 choices. The first answer everyone seems to advocate is divorce. The second is to keep living the way you are, live in regret, most likely end up cheating. The third option is what I have chosen. Instill a great amount of trust in her and become the teacher. If she is unwilling to become a student, so to say, then I recommend a marriage counselor. Otherwise, you'll most likely end up in #1 or #2.

That's really it. There are no other alternatives that I can think of except living your life with a mistress on the side. But this is a marriage forum, right?


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

HopelessGuy said:


> Run tell that to the woman who experiences rejection and can also afford a domestic assistant.
> 
> Let her know that sex is not important to her because there are no socks on the ground.


I'm not sure what you are getting at.
But the state of the house weighs heavily on a wife's mind, and things weighing on her mind get in the way of sexual thoughts.
Taking out garbage, shoes and socks on the floor, and changing light bulbs.... All of these things affected my wife's sex drive in my marriage.


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## eyuop (Apr 7, 2013)

I wish I could hear her side of things. So many people get on this forum looking for people to empathize with them and agree with them. They want to feel validated and believe that it is more their spouse's fault than their fault. They look for people to support their viewpoint and then brush off anyone that might attempt to see things from both sides.

Here is what I see. I see a guy who is an alcoholic, for one. That right there would be a deal breaker for my wife, and she would have left my *ss over just your drinking sh*t. Oh, but that's fine... you aren't a "bad" drunk. 

I see a guy who is alright with telling his spouse she should be ashamed for not having sex more often because "you deserve it". Well, if you treat her like an *ss you don't deserve it. It sounds like you are often irresponsible and yet you still expect her to be in the mood when you are. But you look at yourself and think, "hell, I'm not that bad... at least I'm not cheating or doing other things that other guys do).

She needs to feel an emotional connection with you. Does she hear words of affirmation from you? Maybe a letter that tells her how much you appreciate her and why? Does she feel special to you? Appreciated and validated? It sounds to me like it has been a long time since she felt validated as a woman. She obviously has felt insecure with you because you were "more experienced". I'll bet she has cried many tears over this, and wonders if she is enough for you. When she hears you jumping on her about lack of sex she simply feels more shame and invalidation -- and she continues to believe she isn't enough for you and that you would rather abandon her and find someone else. That is in fact the track you currently are on, so she is right.

A woman has a deep desire to know she is the one you treasure. There might be a zillion other beautiful women out there, but inside she wants to believe that she is, for you, the most attractive, beautiful, special and incredible woman in your life. 

Here is the problem. If she isn't feeling the above, she will also not be feeling like giving herself to you sexually. If she feels lower than you, dirty, ashamed, hurt, like a dud, worthless, invalidated, etc. she will be far too turned off to give herself to you. She feels like she is betraying herself if she gives sex to you when you are making her feel so unloved. It goes against every fiber of a woman's body.

For a man, sex is what communicates love and respect. When a woman gives herself passionately and also pursues his pleasure sexually it is the strongest communicator to him that she is truly into him and loves him. The opposite happens when she withholds herself and is cold sexually. The guy feels completely unloved and invalidated as a man. Each sexual rejection rubs salt into these wounds and further says, "I don't love you and you are not respectable, either -- I wish I had someone else."

You are wanting a normal sex life, and she is using sex as a weapon (unintentionally, I believe) to show you how hurt she feels and how damn unconnected she feels toward you. You are not meeting her emotional needs, so in her subconscious mind she is thinking, "I'll be damned if I'm going to meet his sexual needs!" She is in need of validation. She needs to feel validated as your wife. She feels incredibly invalidated and adding more shame to her isn't going to help that feeling. She needs to know in her heart of hearts that she is appreciated, loved and she is simply okay as your wife. She needs to know that even though you are more experienced, she is okay sexually. 

Now you are probably thinking, "But she isn't okay. How am I supposed to tell her she is okay when she isn't? Do you want me to lie? I'm not into this dishonest sh*it!"

No. I'm not asking you to lie. I'm asking you to at least acknowledge that your wife is an incredible woman and she has put up with a lot of your sh*it and your hangups. She isn't responding well to her feelings because she feels the scales are not balanced in the relationship. I know if I asked her she would tell me how her emotional needs aren't being met and yet she still does so many things to keep the marriage working (she would list all of her many responsibilities here). Instead, I'm asking you to validate her where she deserves validation. Guys can get so fixated on sex that they forget to show appreciation to there wives for doing so many other things right. They forget that their words cut her emotionally and make her feel like dirt -- and yet she still does so many things so well and continues to be responsible in many areas. 

I remember a guy telling me once, "If my wife would just simply give me mind blowing, passionate sex on a regular basis, I wouldn't care if the house looked like crap, she never cooked another meal, and never lifted a finger to pay another bill!" That just shows how much sex means to a man and how truly unconditional sex is in the mind of a man. He was tired of how she would "keep score". She would take on a certain amount of responsibility, complete it, and feel she "earned her keep" (which means she deserved to have his emotional support). If he wasn't earning his "keep", he didn't deserve her passionate body bouncing on his. Classic "sex as a weapon" approach that females sometimes use.

Before you throw in the towel, I would try some counseling. You aren't meeting her needs, and she isn't meeting your needs. You are communicating in a way that is not healthy for either of you. She feels invalidated, and you feel disrespected. Bad combo for sex.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

I agree that drinking sounds problematic. Make a real effort to get that under control and any other glaring problems. Try to re-direct your anger into some kind of physical activity. If you've done all that and there is no improvement on the sex front, then you know it is not you.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

The reason your marriage is falling apart is you are accepting the unacceptable.

The ONLY way to change your marriage is to change the dynamics and NEVER accept the unacceptable.

Over time this works...keep the line taught. Do not let slack in the line.
Guide your wife back.

You make lack of sex unacceptable...simple....but it takes time.
You are entitled to not have sex held hostage by your own wife.

Stand up to her and force the issue.
Remermber though its a two-way street analyses of where YOU can improve and do it.

Be consistent and be the ADULT.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

She's just not that into you.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Calling her controlling or hung up or "just not that into you" does not get at the heart of the issue.

A couple things stood out for me. One is that she is a child of an alcoholic. This can have a major (MAJOR!) impact on a person's ability to be open and vulnerable and to trust in a partner. Moreso if you are triggering her fears by going out for lots of drinks.

She weeps uncontrollably after orgasm? This speaks huge volumes to me about just how much pain and hurt is underneath her controlled (or nasty) exterior. I suspect that it's not you that she is trying to control, but herself. She has probably had to work very hard to protect herself, her vulnerability, and is absolutely afraid to let go of that. 

Breaking down these walls will require great commitment and great effort on her part. She is not likely to even try unless she can believe that you will be there to support her, rather than to tear her down, shame her, or trigger her reactions around alcohol use.


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## HopelessGuy (Jun 19, 2013)

ginger-snap said:


> Did she confess the non-rape before or after marriage?


One year into dating and many years before marriage.



ginger-snap said:


> This quote baffles me. You didn't "want" to marry her, but you "had" to marry her in order to keep her in the country?? You feel guilty for wasting her "feminine youth"?![/q]
> 
> Yeah.
> 
> ...


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## HopelessGuy (Jun 19, 2013)

Hicks said:


> I'm not sure what you are getting at.
> But the state of the house weighs heavily on a wife's mind, and things weighing on her mind get in the way of sexual thoughts.
> Taking out garbage, shoes and socks on the floor, and changing light bulbs.... All of these things affected my wife's sex drive in my marriage.


I know what you mean.

After 10 years I can tell you for sure that these things have no effect on her desire to have sex with me, or the type of sex we have.

We don't argue about them on the day-to-day.

It's just excuse fodder.


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## HopelessGuy (Jun 19, 2013)

eyuop said:


> I wish I could hear her side of things. So many people get on this forum looking for people to empathize with them and agree with them. They want to feel validated and believe that it is more their spouse's fault than their fault. They look for people to support their viewpoint and then brush off anyone that might attempt to see things from both sides.


I've been trying to admit that I am far from perfect. I do admit it's nice to hear that other men, and other women, have the same problem.



eyuop said:


> Here is what I see. I see a guy who is an alcoholic, for one.


Lol, if I'm an alcoholic in kinda the same way college kids are.

It's more accurate to say I'm a binge drinker.



eyuop said:


> That right there would be a deal breaker for my wife, and she would have left my *ss over just your drinking sh*t. Oh, but that's fine... you aren't a "bad" drunk.


Let me put it this way: while we were arguing about sex yesterday she brought up the kitchen sink, but she did not once bring up my drinking, because I asked her how I was allowed to drink and when, and then I complied.

If she had anything to say about that, she would have.



eyuop said:


> I see a guy who is alright with telling his spouse she should be ashamed for not having sex more often because "you deserve it". Well, if you treat her like an *ss you don't deserve it.


That's not unfair. I'm not proud of the way I am when we argue. That said, I don't treat her like an @ss, nor do we argue about sex often.



eyuop said:


> It sounds like you are often irresponsible and yet you still expect her to be in the mood when you are. But you look at yourself and think, "hell, I'm not that bad... at least I'm not cheating or doing other things that other guys do).


I don't expect her to be in the mood when I am, just as she doesn't expect me to be in the mood when she is.

Drive is not the issue here. It's the power/control issues and hangups that she is not getting over, and that I cannot take anymore.

She expects me to get in the mood when she is, which I do, and I expect her to at least attempt the same, which often she does not.



eyuop said:


> She needs to feel an emotional connection with you. Does she hear words of affirmation from you? Maybe a letter that tells her how much you appreciate her and why? Does she feel special to you? Appreciated and validated?


Yes, yes, and yes, but it will never be enough.

I tell her all the time how pretty she is, I send her texts at work to tell her that I miss her and appreciate her, I take her out, I spend time with her more than anyone else by a long shot.

I could do more. I could buy her flowers way more often. Then again, it's not as if buying her flowers when I do changes anything.

It will never be enough, and no matter how I try, nothing changes. 

I do all these things not because I want sex, but because she wants me to.

I would be fine with bi-monthly sex, if it was good.



eyuop said:


> It sounds to me like it has been a long time since she felt validated as a woman. She obviously has felt insecure with you because you were "more experienced". I'll bet she has cried many tears over this, and wonders if she is enough for you. When she hears you jumping on her about lack of sex she simply feels more shame and invalidation -- and she continues to believe she isn't enough for you and that you would rather abandon her and find someone else. That is in fact the track you currently are on, so she is right.


Not quite. We argue about sex infrequently. The last time was in February. That's when I told her after ten years that sex does matter to me, and I expect a change.



eyuop said:


> A woman has a deep desire to know she is the one you treasure. There might be a zillion other beautiful women out there, but inside she wants to believe that she is, for you, the most attractive, beautiful, special and incredible woman in your life.
> 
> Here is the problem. If she isn't feeling the above, she will also not be feeling like giving herself to you sexually. If she feels lower than you, dirty, ashamed, hurt, like a dud, worthless, invalidated, etc. she will be far too turned off to give herself to you. She feels like she is betraying herself if she gives sex to you when you are making her feel so unloved. It goes against every fiber of a woman's body.


The way you seem to be assuming I am above is far from reality.



eyuop said:


> For a man, sex is what communicates love and respect. When a woman gives herself passionately and also pursues his pleasure sexually it is the strongest communicator to him that she is truly into him and loves him. The opposite happens when she withholds herself and is cold sexually. The guy feels completely unloved and invalidated as a man. Each sexual rejection rubs salt into these wounds and further says, "I don't love you and you are not respectable, either -- I wish I had someone else."


It does rub salt in my wound, but I know she doesn't want someone else.



eyuop said:


> You are wanting a normal sex life, and she is using sex as a weapon (unintentionally, I believe) to show you how hurt she feels and how damn unconnected she feels toward you.


You're right about that, in a way. She's pissed at me because in 2009, I married her just as her visa was expiring. I waited till the last minute because I didn't want to marry her.

The reason I didn't want to marry this beautiful, smart, hard-working girl is not because the sex was never great.

It's because she made no effort to improve it.



eyuop said:


> You are not meeting her emotional needs, so in her subconscious mind she is thinking, "I'll be damned if I'm going to meet his sexual needs!" She is in need of validation. She needs to feel validated as your wife. She feels incredibly invalidated and adding more shame to her isn't going to help that feeling. She needs to know in her heart of hearts that she is appreciated, loved and she is simply okay as your wife. She needs to know that even though you are more experienced, she is okay sexually.


I don't shame her on the regular for her sexual hangups and power issues. It's maybe a bi-annual event.

In fact, I should probably make a better effort of bringing it up when we aren't angry, but she gets defensive, turns it around on me (this is true for any complaint I have), talks about anything other than what I want addressed, and it just escalates into a fight



eyuop said:


> Now you are probably thinking, "But she isn't okay. How am I supposed to tell her she is okay when she isn't? Do you want me to lie? I'm not into this dishonest sh*it!"
> 
> No. I'm not asking you to lie. *I'm asking you to at least acknowledge that your wife is an incredible woman and she has put up with a lot of your sh*it and your hangups. *


Wasn't that the first line in my first post, and my entire second post?



eyuop said:


> She isn't responding well to her feelings because she feels the scales are not balanced in the relationship. I know if I asked her she would tell me how her emotional needs aren't being met and yet she still does so many things to keep the marriage working (she would list all of her many responsibilities here).


Her emotional needs are not being met, because they cannot be met.

She does nothing to keep the marriage working, other than what she wants, which is usually great, because she is a great person... except...



eyuop said:


> Instead, I'm asking you to validate her where she deserves validation. *Guys can get so fixated on sex that they forget to show appreciation to there wives for doing so many other things right.*


I am not fixated on sex. I'm not even complaining about the frequency. After ten years I want to see her make an effort, as I have been for ten years.

I have moved toward her in many regards. She move away. This includes sex. It will never be enough.



eyuop said:


> They forget that their words cut her emotionally and make her feel like dirt -- and yet she still does so many things so well and continues to be responsible in many areas.
> 
> I remember a guy telling me once, "If my wife would just simply give me mind blowing, passionate sex on a regular basis, I wouldn't care if the house looked like crap, she never cooked another meal, and never lifted a finger to pay another bill!" That just shows how much sex means to a man and how truly unconditional sex is in the mind of a man. He was tired of how she would "keep score". She would take on a certain amount of responsibility, complete it, and feel she "earned her keep" (which means she deserved to have his emotional support). If he wasn't earning his "keep", he didn't deserve her passionate body bouncing on his. Classic "sex as a weapon" approach that females sometimes use.
> 
> Before you throw in the towel, I would try some counseling. You aren't meeting her needs, and she isn't meeting your needs. You are communicating in a way that is not healthy for either of you. She feels invalidated, and you feel disrespected. Bad combo for sex.


The difference that my needs can be easily met given a little empathy, and she has not made an effort.

On the other hand, I can empathize with her needs, but they cannot be met, no matter how I try.

She complains that I don't try hard enough.

I complain that she doesn't try at all.


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## HopelessGuy (Jun 19, 2013)

Trying2figureitout said:


> The reason your marriage is falling apart is you are accepting the unacceptable.[/qupte]
> 
> The ONLY way to change your marriage is to change the dynamics and NEVER accept the unacceptable.
> 
> ...


You are absolutely right. 

For many years, I allowed the unacceptable to be acceptable, because I felt guilty and dirty complaining about sex.



WorkingOnMe said:


> She's just not that into you.


Lol, she totally is though.

When it come to sex, her body is very into me, but her mind won't let her give up control, and her hangups wont let her give up the passion that I want.



always_alone said:


> Calling her controlling or hung up or "just not that into you" does not get at the heart of the issue.
> 
> A couple things stood out for me. One is that she is a child of an alcoholic. This can have a major (MAJOR!) impact on a person's ability to be open and vulnerable and to trust in a partner. Moreso if you are triggering her fears by going out for lots of drinks.
> 
> She weeps uncontrollably after orgasm?


Not always, and it's usually only the first one when she does.



always_alone said:


> This speaks huge volumes to me about just how much pain and hurt is underneath her controlled (or nasty) exterior. I suspect that it's not you that she is trying to control, but herself. She has probably had to work very hard to protect herself, her vulnerability, and is absolutely afraid to let go of that.
> 
> Breaking down these walls will require great commitment and great effort on her part. She is not likely to even try unless she can believe that you will be there to support her, rather than to tear her down, shame her, or trigger her reactions around alcohol use.


I think you pretty much nailed it.

She is trying to control me too though.

She has this mentality that she gets from popular culture that sex is something women use to get thing they want. In her case it's not money or material things. She wants more, more, more, more validation.

I just want some.

Also, I refuse to comply with that construct. When she told me yesterday that part of the reason she ruins our sex life is because sometimes I take the garbage out in the morning instead of at night, that stuck with me.

Now, if I start taking the garbage out at night every time, then that makes me a sort of John doesn't it? And when nothing changes -- and you can bet nothing will, as it never doesm -- then what does that make me? A stupid John.

By the way, we lived separately for many years, and she would come to my place. I was a total slob (and now I'm much neater), but it was my place, and she didn't complain.

When we talked about the sex issues then, she promised things would be better when we lived together.

Her problem is always my problem, and whatever that problem is seems to morph according to what's available to avoid looking for the source of the problem in the mirror.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

soulpotato said:


> Not cool. You should not want her to feel shame. That is unhealthy. Anyway, it seems she already feels some, and I'll bet that's making things worse and taking them further away from what you want. Maybe try to see this as a problem to be solved together, not something she should be vilified for or made to feel ashamed of.


I sort of agree with you, but in this case I would give the OP a pass on this one, big time. His wife uses shame on a regular basis to keep him away from her and to keep from having sex. He is merely flipping the shame lever in the other direction to use it back against her.

This is similar to an attorney in a courtroom trying to object to evidence brought up in trial, when he himself brought up the same evidence already. Two wrongs, don't make a right, BUT - if she opens the "shame" door, the husband has the right to walk through it, and defend himself.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

eyuop said:


> I see a guy who is alright with telling his spouse she should be ashamed for not having sex more often because "you deserve it". Well, if you treat her like an *ss you don't deserve it. It sounds like you are often irresponsible and yet you still expect her to be in the mood when you are. But you look at yourself and think, "hell, I'm not that bad... at least I'm not cheating or doing other things that other guys do).


I think you have a really warped view of marriage. Sex is not a "reward" for a husband's good behavior. She's not his mother. In a healthy relationship, *Sex is something BOTH the husband and wife do because they both enjoy it.*

If my wife acts like an "*ss" or is irresponsible, you bet I will bring it up and we will discuss it. But I'm not going to deny sex as a punishment to her. First of all, that would be a punishment for me too, and more importantly, I don't see sex as a weapon for me to wield against her. If it was bad enough to spoil my mood, that is understandable - that time. It's not legitimate for it to spoil my mood every day of the week, every week of the year. If it got to that point, I would have to realize that either this person is so horrible I just couldn't live with her, or I simply don't enjoy sex and I'm looking for excuses. Neither option is a healthy one. 

I hate to sound so harsh, but I think you need to take a hard serious look at what sex and marriage in a loving marriage is all about.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

To Hopelessguy,

Let's look at some of the points you made.

1. Your wife enjoys sex, she enjoys orgasming, she enjoys toys, just not around you. 

2. She doesn't want to have sex with you, and has many excuses why.

3. She was a virgin when you married.

OK, the evidence is purely circumstantial, but it starts to point in a certain direction. Have you considered the possibility that your wife is a lesbian and is in denial? That would explain quite a bit, actually.


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## HopelessGuy (Jun 19, 2013)

Again, and I cannot emphasize this enough:

It's not the frequency of sex that is the problem.

It's the dynamic. 

She needs to let go of control over this one thing, and she can keep controlling everything else.

She needs to get over her hangups about sex being dirty, and grow up.

She masturbates by grinding against something (when she isn't using her vibrator), because she thinks her lady parts are dirty.

I know this not because I've seen it, but because she's told me.

I would say that to see her pleasure herself was at one time my only semi-kinky fantasy.

It's not like a look at porn of women doing this (well, it's not like I never have either, I discovered porn later in life because of this crap). I don't want to see other women doing it, I wanted to see her doing it.

She knew this from the first time I asked her to, and he said "no".

She never did, and I stopped asking long ago.

I do bring it up occasionally still though -- but now instead of it being a fantasy it's a source of resentment that I use as proof that she feels no obligation to meet my sexual needs -- and I bring it up to show her how little effort she's made to get over her hangups, despite the many change I've made as per her wishes, and to validate her.

Of course she blame lack of good sex on lack of a bond, but that is only relatively recently.

She blames me for not committing, but who's fault is that?

Like I said, she is the total package, but she sabotages our relationship through sex, and has from day 1.

As a result, and while I lover her despite this, there has always been something missing that we both feel.

Now she says that missing thing is the cause of the bad sex.

In reality, the bad sex has always been there, since before we had something to know we were missing, and it has always been the cause of the missing thing.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

HopelessGuy said:


> Now she says that missing thing is the cause of the bad sex.
> 
> In reality, the bad sex has always been there, since before we had something to know we were missing, and it has always been the cause of the missing thing.


Bingo. Same issue in my case. It's a chicken or the egg problem. You say everything would be fine if she just fixed the sex part. She says the sex part will be fixed when you fix x, y, z. If you have addressed x,y and z and she has not moved on sex, then you know she is full of it. Not clear to me whether you've done this yet though.


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## HopelessGuy (Jun 19, 2013)

Theseus said:


> I think you have a really warped view of marriage. Sex is not a "reward" for a husband's good behavior. She's not his mother. In a healthy relationship, *Sex is something BOTH the husband and wife do because they both enjoy it.*
> 
> If my wife acts like an "*ss" or is irresponsible, you bet I will bring it up and we will discuss it. But I'm not going to deny sex as a punishment to her. First of all, that would be a punishment for me too, and more importantly, I don't see sex as a weapon for me to wield against her. If it was bad enough to spoil my mood, that is understandable - that time. It's not legitimate for it to spoil my mood every day of the week, every week of the year. If it got to that point, I would have to realize that either this person is so horrible I just couldn't live with her, or I simply don't enjoy sex and I'm looking for excuses. Neither option is a healthy one.
> 
> I hate to sound so harsh, but I think you need to take a hard serious look at what sex and marriage in a loving marriage is all about.


Thank you



Anon1111 said:


> Bingo. Same issue in my case. It's a chicken or the egg problem. You say everything would be fine if she just fixed the sex part. She says the sex part will be fixed when you fix x, y, z. If you have addressed x,y and z and she has not moved on sex, then you know she is full of it. Not clear to me whether you've done this yet though.


I have addressed x, y, and z, but perhaps I could do more still. Since I've moved toward her a lot, and she hasn't moved toward me at all, I doubt it will ever be enough.

Then again, x, y, and z have changed a lot throughout the course of ten years, kinda like whack-a-mole.

She said to me last night and also when we argued about this in Feb, that "she doesn't wanna be the first" and it blows my mind.

She cannot bring herself to see how I've changed for her, as doing so would force her to look in the mirror.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

HopelessGuy said:


> Thank you
> 
> 
> Then again, x, y, and z have changed a lot throughout the course of ten years, kinda like whack-a-mole.


This is how you know that she's just giving you BS excuses. You KNOW that there is nothing you can do. She's just got you jumping through hoops with no reward at all.


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## HopelessGuy (Jun 19, 2013)

Theseus said:


> To Hopelessguy,
> Let's look at some of the points you made.
> 
> 1. Your wife enjoys sex, she enjoys orgasming, she enjoys toys, just not around you.
> ...


She's so homophobic that I can only assume that she has some attraction to females.

On the Kensey (sp) scale of sexuality she is definitely more hetero- than ****- though. Her mind may want to ruin sex, but her body just loves it every time. She's attracted to me, and she's attracted to my guy parts.

In this sense I get the impression that my situation is somewhat unique.

We are both LD relative to the population at large, I think.

It's not that I don't get sex, it's how I get it. She is satisfied, so she feels no need to worry about me, and seems incapable of empathizing. It's odd, cuz she's not sociopathic or anything, and I know she loves me deeply, but there is some disconnect.

If I were to wait six months to have sex, and then make an advance, she might say "later" just to do it, and just to show me she is in control of herself, not some dirty ****.

Then later, perhaps I would have to ask again, we would have sex that is "meh" for me, and quivering legs great for her.


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## HopelessGuy (Jun 19, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> This is how you know that she's just giving you BS excuses. You KNOW that there is nothing you can do. She's just got you jumping through hoops with no reward at all.


And the whole concept of sex as reward makes me sick to my stomach.

What kills me is that she really does enjoy sex.

She just hates the lack of control that necessarily comes with it.

She also feels the need to punish herself, myself, and us with sex.


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## 4thand11 (May 20, 2013)

HopelessGuy said:


> She needs to get over her hangups about sex being dirty, and grow up.


Do you honestly think it's that easy? You are talking about her entire background and upbringing, you can't just change it like flipping on a light. 



> She masturbates by grinding against something (when she isn't using her vibrator), because she thinks her lady parts are dirty.


Again this has been ingrained in her, maybe from her parents, church, whatever it is she can't just change it like that. That is where a sex therapist might help.



> I would say that to see her pleasure herself was at one time my only semi-kinky fantasy.
> 
> It's not like a look at porn of women doing this (well, it's not like I never have either, I discovered porn later in life because of this crap). I don't want to see other women doing it, I wanted to see her doing it.
> 
> ...


You seem to frequently come back to the watching her masturbate thing... in all honestly I don't think it's all that uncommon for women to feel self-conscious about doing that while somebody watches, even their husband.

Honestly I think you need to give her a break on this particular fantasy of yours. You are just making her feel more awkward and building up her resentment. And besides I don't think her refusal to do that one act is an example of her "refusal to meet your sexual needs". Let it go, and focus on more plain vanilla things. Baby steps. She may never be comfortable doing that in front of you. (Or maybe she will get more comfortable over time and do it for you 7 nights a week. Who knows?)



> Now she says that missing thing is the cause of the bad sex.
> 
> In reality, the bad sex has always been there, since before we had something to know we were missing, and it has always been the cause of the missing thing.


Translation: she has hangups about sex and the way you are approaching it isn't helping. In fact it is making her want to have sex with you even less. So she is looking for other things to blame you for.

I think you need to stop approaching this from a "poor me" perspective... not because you are wrong, but because that approach is totally and completely non-productive.


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## RFguy (Feb 17, 2013)

I don't know about you guys, but in my case it definitely wasn't a chicken and egg problem.

The problem was entirely hers. Her hangups and a whole host of bad behaviors that stemmed from these hangups was what killed the relationship.

I admit I became distant after a while, but that was entirely her fault since I couldn't take her indifference any more.

The problem was there since the first kiss. My spider sense would tell me that something is off, just by the way she was kissing me and holding me, but I was too blinded by love at the time and ignored the signs.

What's funny in a sense is that she once confessed me that before we met she had tried hanging out with 2-3 guys but they all dumped her after a few dates.

Either these men were more experienced and saw right through her, or she was trying extra hard with me during the date phase.


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## HopelessGuy (Jun 19, 2013)

4thand11 said:


> Do you honestly think it's that easy? You are talking about her entire background and upbringing, you can't just change it like flipping on a light.
> 
> Again this has been ingrained in her, maybe from her parents, church, whatever it is she can't just change it like that. That is where a sex therapist might help.


I know you're right. It's not that she hasn't changed, though. It's that she doesn't try.



4thand11 said:


> You seem to frequently come back to the watching her masturbate thing... in all honestly I don't think it's all that uncommon for women to feel self-conscious about doing that while somebody watches, even their husband.
> 
> Honestly I think you need to give her a break on this particular fantasy of yours.


I have given her a break long long ago. It's not a fantasy anymore. To watch her do it would just be awkward at this point.



4thand11 said:


> You are just making her feel more awkward and building up her resentment. And besides I don't think her refusal to do that one act is an example of her "refusal to meet your sexual needs".


But it is.

That is the one thing I've ever asked her for in ten years that isn't the "normal" stuff (missionary, doggy, occasional oral, her on top).

It's not that she tried it and didn't like it. It's that she never even tried. She feels no obligation to meet even my minimal sexual need, and that's the perfect example, which is why I keep coming back to it.

I do resent her for that particularly, because it is emblematic of our problems from day 1.

Again, I gave up on this years ago, and haven't asked for it in years. Even when I did ask it was only occasionally. It's not even that huge of a turn on. I just wanted to see her make an effort to improve.



4thand11 said:


> Let it go, and focus on more plain vanilla things. Baby steps. She may never be comfortable doing that in front of you. (Or maybe she will get more comfortable over time and do it for you 7 nights a week. Who knows?)
> 
> Translation: she has hangups about sex and the way you are approaching it isn't helping. In fact it is making her want to have sex with you even less. So she is looking for other things to blame you for.


You're right, but she seems to have forgotten that she has hangups. Once upon a time she knew, and promised me it would be better. Then, it didn't get better, and yesterday she told me "it's not a problem for me."

I assure you that it most certainly is, because it's killing her marriage.



4thand11 said:


> I think you need to stop approaching this from a "poor me" perspective... not because you are wrong, but because that approach is totally and completely non-productive.


I don't like to read myself feeling bad for myself either.

Keep in mind, I've never had anyone to talk to about this.

I'm learning as I go.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I hate to tell you this. Bail out now. You're young, no mention of kids, that's the end of it.

Control is the ultimate issue, not sex. Some people are seriously insecure in their life and being ultimate control freaks is the only way out. 

Decide whether the whole sex thing is worth the effort and act accordingly. Some people were never meant to be married.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Darn it Jim, I'm a doctor (*) not an immigration lawyer :scratchhead: but here's some input on the immigration issue. Does she have a temporary 'permit' of some kind and is waiting for the real thing (green card)? 4 years is way too long for a green card when marrying a citizen. Assuming the real green card shows up in another year, she will need to stay married to get it. Then, for US Citizenship, it's 3 years if you're (still) married to a citizen, 5 otherwise. Plus divorce within a year of getting a green card is generally not a good idea down the road (for naturalization).

So, consider the immigration angle before doing anything drastic. It could well be that she has anxiety etc over her situation. Has she talked at all about becoming a citizen and bringing in a lot of relatives? or even the most basic question,what part of the world are we talking about? a few countries have super-long waiting lists even for green cards... The country also determines a bit of the sexual aspect, I know it's stereotyping, but also real data...

(*) not THAT kind of doctor, unfortunately :rofl:


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## HopelessGuy (Jun 19, 2013)

john117 said:


> Decide whether the whole sex thing is worth the effort and act accordingly. Some people were never meant to be married.


I'm reading through other posts on the forum, and it seems our problems are not as big as some other people's.

She doesn't need to change a lot, but I'm putting my foot down, and insisting that she does change.

The thing is, except for the sex, there are no other issues with her. Yeah, she has a few personality quirks, her sense of humor is not great, and she can be overly negative and pessimistic, but I can live with all that.

She really is the whole package, except for the sex thing, which is obviously not minor.



john117 said:


> Darn it Jim, I'm a doctor (*) not an immigration lawyer :scratchhead: but here's some input on the immigration issue. Does she have a temporary 'permit' of some kind and is waiting for the real thing (green card)?


Temporary. Her interview for the permanent should be coming up any week now.



john117 said:


> 4 years is way too long for a green card when marrying a citizen.


The local INS is backlogged over a year.



john117 said:


> Assuming the real green card shows up in another year, she will need to stay married to get it. Then, for US Citizenship, it's 3 years if you're (still) married to a citizen, 5 otherwise. Plus divorce within a year of getting a green card is generally not a good idea down the road (for naturalization).
> 
> So, consider the immigration angle before doing anything drastic.


Even if we can't find sexual compatibility, I don't hate the girl. She's gonna get citizenship.



john117 said:


> It could well be that she has anxiety etc over her situation. Has she talked at all about becoming a citizen and bringing in a lot of relatives? or even the most basic question,what part of the world are we talking about?


Eastern Europe. I don't think there will be too much of a problem.



john117 said:


> a few countries have super-long waiting lists even for green cards... The country also determines a bit of the sexual aspect, I know it's stereotyping, but also real data...
> 
> (*) not THAT kind of doctor, unfortunately :rofl:


You're absolutely right about the stereotype/data. They're very Catholic where she's from (which is great, I'm Catholic too), and I can't help but feel there is some religio-cultural influence on her attitude toward sex.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Maneo said:


> Try some marriage counseling even if you have before, try finding someone who may specialize in marital sexual problems.


This^. She sounds sexually repressed and its clear you aren't going to be able to help her. Just how a man shouldn't teach his wife to drive a stick, you should bring in a professional.

Failing that, then you will need to reevaluate your marriage. But give the counselling at least a year. Good luck.


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

She doesn't like herself. No amount of love from you will fill that void. In fact it only frustrates her by highlighting her own inner lack. She needs to accept herself.


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## HopelessGuy (Jun 19, 2013)

sapientia said:


> This^. She sounds sexually repressed and its clear you aren't going to be able to help her. Just how a man shouldn't teach his wife to drive a stick, you should bring in a professional.


Lol, I actually did teach her to drive stick (not a pun).



sapientia said:


> Failing that, then you will need to reevaluate your marriage. But give the counselling at least a year. Good luck.


TY. I have some good news, which I'll post separately.



MSP said:


> She doesn't like herself. No amount of love from you will fill that void. In fact it only frustrates her by highlighting her own inner lack. She needs to accept herself.


That's a far assessment. I think/hope we made some progress today. See below.


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## HopelessGuy (Jun 19, 2013)

After work today my plan was to not talk to her about this, but she brought it up, and we started arguing again.

Fortunately, I must have picked up some good lines on this forum, because despite the yelling and emotion, something seemed to get through to her.

I told her I wanted marriage counseling or a divorce attorney, her choice (took the high road).

When she said that sex isn't everything, I said it's easy for her to say as she is satisfied with our sex life, and I said that "sex is 10% of a relationship when it's good, and 90% when it's bad" or some such.

When she started getting into whatever from 2005, I asked her to consider how many problems from when we met until today does she think we could have avoided had she dropped the word "no" from her vocabulary ten years ago.

Finally, she said something like "fine, I'll do it your way!!!" which just means applying the golden rule to our sex life.

How could I stay mad at this point?

I told her I'd make more of an effort to be supportive, but I also pointed out that she has to keep in mind that she only notices when I'm not. When I clean up, and I do a good job, she doesn't notice. When I don't clean up (normally b/c I don't even see the mess), or when I don't do a good job cleaning, she does.

A little more arguing ensued and then we went to separate rooms.

I came out later and suggested we pet the dog on the bed (I know it sounds silly, but we have no kids, and we both love that furry little b***h). That was my olive branch.

After a few minutes the dog pranced away, and I just held her. She reminded me that on a few occasions prior we did have good sex by both of our standards (every occasion she brought up was at least five years in the past, but w/e, at least she seems to be getting it).

Then we made out for a while, then we went back to cuddling, then back to making out, all the while talking about "all things us" calmly, including sex.

I purposely didn't touch her in any kind of sexual way, and after a while she was ready to go, and started teasing me, but again I didn't move toward sex.

She was good and aroused by this point, so we gave each other a hj (can you give a woman a hj?). I know she would not have rejected me if I'd asked for sex, but I really didn't want to. In a way I thought it would cheapen everything we just went through. I actually like hjs anyway.

Then we went to dinner, and talked all night about many other things.

We don't argue about sex often, so I'm hoping the abject misery we put each other through these last two days, followed by the joy of making up, will leave an impression.

Maybe we finally broke the cycle of badness? I'm not too optimistic, but I am hopeful.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

HopelessGuy said:


> Maybe we finally broke the cycle of badness?


Hopefully so, sounds like you're making progress!



> I'm not too optimistic


Don't be. Don't get your hopes too high yet.



> but I am hopeful.


Indeed, don't lose hope either. 

Carry on the good efforts, but be sure that you're ready to divorce if the other side does not give equal efforts.


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

"Originally Posted by john117:
Darn it Jim, I'm a doctor (*) not an immigration lawyer  but here's some input on the immigration issue. Does she have a temporary 'permit' of some kind and is waiting for the real thing (green card)?
Temporary. Her interview for the permanent should be coming up any week now.

Originally Posted by john117:
4 years is way too long for a green card when marrying a citizen.
The local INS is backlogged over a year."

Gonna side with John117, I think she's using you and quite frankly I don't think she's a good person. I have never heard of a person claiming to be raped so her husband can't say he "nailed" a virgin. This would also suggest she's not crazy either. As she plays you well.

How's your married life besides the sex? Does she treat you well? Is she kind? Does she respect you? 

Knowledge of her using you for a green card is considered fraud, you mention she will get her citizenship as she's a good person. I would be careful.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

As a female I will also say, IMO:

if she was attracted to you as you say she is, and enjoys having sex with you, she would be having sex with you. 

If she was traumatized or having mental or physical issues she would not enjoy it in any way, if she had a LD you wouldn't find her masturbating. Every you say about her sexually points out to a healthy woman.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

mablenc said:


> As a female I will also say, IMO:
> 
> if she was attracted to you as you say she is, and enjoys having sex with you, she would be having sex with you.
> 
> If she was traumatized or having mental or physical issues she would not enjoy it in any way, if she had a LD you wouldn't find her masturbating. Every you say about her sexually points out to a healthy woman.


Can't agree with this at all. Indeed, I would say that enjoyment of sex is often one of the sources of the problem. Not by itself, of course, but after you've lumped on a pile of shame, abuse, or trauma. 

The mix can easily result in a woman who loves sex, desperately wants to enjoy it, but can''t because she is afraid of being hurt, violated, taken advantage of, losing her sense of self or security, or whatever it is she is protecting.

Some people here on TAM worry about crossing "boundaries". Others live in fortresses and don't know if they can risk lowering the drawbridge.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

always_alone said:


> Can't agree with this at all. Indeed, I would say that enjoyment of sex is often one of the sources of the problem. Not by itself, of course, but after you've lumped on a pile of shame, abuse, or trauma.
> 
> The mix can easily result in a woman who loves sex, desperately wants to enjoy it, but can''t because she is afraid of being hurt, violated, taken advantage of, losing her sense of self or security, or whatever it is she is protecting.
> 
> Some people here on TAM worry about crossing "boundaries". Others live in fortresses and don't know if they can risk lowering the drawbridge.


:iagree:

Its the wall of "protection" that's the issue.

Its hard my wife has sad so many times. But it can come down over time. Hopefully and ideally before the wall of the other spouse goes up.

Everyone has a breaking point.


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

What has caused that "wall of protection"? And what has she done to overcome it?


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

mablenc said:


> What has caused that "wall of protection"? And what has she done to overcome it?


Hmm lets see... Turning off emotions for me for one. Years of resentment over what I consider mostly minor and fully correctable issues.

To overcome it... Time, consistency, change and her being held accountable.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

Hey hopeless,

I can really relate to your story. 

My wife was a virgin at 25. I waited a year before PIV. and 20 years later we are still together with a 9 year old. 

She told me early on that all men leave her when she tells them she was a virgin. I guess I had to prove I wasn't like that. I know that seem sick. All these years later I still want to prove that I am a good man and I continue to jump through hoop to prove that.

For 17 years sex was 3 times a month. For the past 3 years, I became more Alpha and became more aggressive with sex with sex 3 times a week. I have ti quantity, but not the quality. I know it's duty sex. She truly has no desire.

Over the years I've started to be an A-hole at times because of the lack of intimacy. She says she would want sex more if I was nicer to her. I did that for years and years and that didn't help.

I've given up on her now. If we stay together we will hate each other .


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

HopelessGuy said:


> Then again, x, y, and z have changed a lot throughout the course of ten years, kinda like whack-a-mole.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My guess is that the shifting, x, y, z, is at least partly a sincere effort to locate the problem. She may not fully understand why she reacts the way she does, and is grasping at straws. Other times, you are probably right that she is trying to dodge her mirror because facing it is too difficult or painful.

Use your best judgment to see the difference between the two. When you take out the garbage likely has nothing to do with anything. Her admitted lie about being a rape victim is likely closer to the truth.

If she continues to refuse to see how much you are trying and giving, try reminding her (gently) of some of the specific ways that you have changed and the many ways you are showing your willingness to work through it. The more you are able to take the high road, and recognize when she is trying (however inadequately), while still calling her out on her BS, I suspect that she will open up more and more. 

Hope it works out for you.


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Hmm lets see... Turning off emotions for me for one. Years of resentment over what I consider mostly minor and fully correctable issues.
> 
> To overcome it... Time, consistency, change and her being held accountable.


I meant professional help such as mental health, spiritual counseling, sex therapy.

See, I really don't get her behavior, you have listed no valid reason, but I'm not saying I know it all or your situation.

I just think she's being either really unfair to you or something major is or has happened to her.


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## HopelessGuy (Jun 19, 2013)

mablenc said:


> "Originally Posted by john117:
> Gonna side with John117, I think she's using you and quite frankly I don't think she's a good person. I have never heard of a person claiming to be raped so her husband can't say he "nailed" a virgin. This would also suggest she's not crazy either. As she plays you well.
> 
> How's your married life besides the sex? Does she treat you well? Is she kind? Does she respect you?


She is kind, but she can be controlling and nasty about it too. Sometimes she has a problem controlling her tone with me, whereas with outsiders she has this "sweet voice".

If she were using me for citizenship, however, she could have gone about it a better way. She's an attractive girl. Many guys would be happy to be used by her.

I think a lot of this has to do with resentment she has toward me because I waited till the last possible moment to marry her. Of course, I did that because little boys don't dream about one day marrying a bossy chick who is mediocre-at-best in the sack.



mablenc said:


> Knowledge of her using you for a green card is considered fraud, you mention she will get her citizenship as she's a good person. I would be careful.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know she loves me, though. After a decade, you can tell. Part of the problem in our relationship is that I didn't love her back enough for the longest time.



always alone said:


> As a female I will also say, IMO:
> 
> if she was attracted to you as you say she is, and enjoys having sex with you, she would be having sex with you.
> 
> ...


I think part of it is that she has "hangups" about being dirty.

Let me give you a kind of funny example. Neither of us are into anything anal, but I know she is a bit repressed so one time when when she was on top and getting close to O I surprised her by slipping a lubed up finger into the "back door".

She said "take it out", but before I could she O'd. She wan't mad but said she didn't like it. That said, it really felt like she did.

I learned that day that you can feel the contractions of a female O much better in the back door than in the front.



Trickster said:


> Hey hopeless,
> Over the years I've started to be an A-hole at times because of the lack of intimacy. *She says she would want sex more if I was nicer to her.* I did that for years and years and that didn't help.
> 
> I've given up on her now. If we stay together we will hate each other .


I'm really sorry to hear that.

It's ironic because when we do talk about this, she tells me she needs to feel more of a bond before she can loosen up sexually.

I wan't looking for a nymph when I met her, but I am human and I want someone to desire and I want to be desired.

I respond to this by asking her to consider just once that she would have gotten that bond and faster commitment and all that, if she had just done for me what I did for her, which was nothing more than satisfying her needs, and making her feel wanted. 



always_alone said:


> My guess is that the shifting, x, y, z, is at least partly a sincere effort to locate the problem.
> 
> She may not fully understand why she reacts the way she does, and is grasping at straws. Other times, you are probably right that she is trying to dodge her mirror because facing it is too difficult or painful.


I believe that. I believe that not even she knows. I believe she wants "more" from me, but I don't believe it will ever be enough.

I mean, when you're with someone for ten years, irrespective of how you got there, and they are faithful to you, you don't really get to keep complaining about lack of commitment in the previous decade.

I think many years of me playing "hard to get" infatuated her with me, and infatuated her with conquering me, but it also did a number on her self-esteem.



always_alone said:


> Use your best judgment to see the difference between the two. When you take out the garbage likely has nothing to do with anything. Her admitted lie about being a rape victim is likely closer to the truth.


Sometimes I wonder if she really was abused too.



always_alone said:


> If she continues to refuse to see how much you are trying and giving, try reminding her (gently) of some of the specific ways that you have changed and the many ways you are showing your willingness to work through it. The more you are able to take the high road, and recognize when she is trying (however inadequately), while still calling her out on her BS, I suspect that she will open up more and more.
> 
> Hope it works out for you.


Me too. Thanks.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

Man, all I can think is why do these fridgid girls get the good, easy orgasms? That doesn't even make sense. So not fair!

Also, I'm sorry for what you are going through. As some other people mentioned, its quite concerning she lied about being a rape victim. Really makes one wonder how she knew she was going to be a fridgid wet blanket before she even had tried sex out.


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## HopelessGuy (Jun 19, 2013)

MissScarlett said:


> Man, all I can think is why do these fridgid girls get the good, easy orgasms? That doesn't even make sense. So not fair!


I think I can explain that for you.

Because she thinks she's dirty, she doesn't want to touch herself with her hands.

So when she learned to masturbate, she did so by grinding against stuff.

My theory is, and I could be wrong, is that it must be harder to get off in this way, so she had to get more in tune with her sexual response to get the payoff.

Even if I am right, this might not work later in life, but it might be fun to try, lol.



always_alone said:


> Also, I'm sorry for what you are going through. As some other people mentioned, its quite concerning she lied about being a rape victim. *Really makes one wonder how she knew* she was going to be a fridgid wet blanket before she even had tried sex out.


Maybe thinking her lady parts are gross might have tipped her off.

I really hope she can discover later in life a _new _enjoyment of sex. It's not that she doesn't enjoy it now, it's that she doesn't enjoy enjoying it. Does that make sense?

It's too wrapped up in her anti-sl*t-complex and control issues right now.

That said, she pointed out to me that it took me ten years to actually say "sex is important to me", so maybe some of the guilt/shame and sl*t-complex rubbed off on me, or maybe I always had it. I didn't realize that this might have played some role.

One thing is for sure, I may be relatively LD, but she's used up my lifetime of rejection quota by this point, so something has got to give. I just hope she really understands that.


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