# Alimony suggestion



## LonelyHiker (Dec 15, 2020)

So, I know this is a very dividing subject. Please know that I am here trying to determine a fair and reasonable amount that covers my SO but allows me to live my life moving forward and allows us both to support our children.

I'll throw some numbers around to see what people think.

Married 20 years; 4 kids (ages 15, 13, 11, and 8).
Wife has been stay at home for past 15 years.
She has her degree and is also certified as a holistic health coach (she got this over the past 6 years).
5 years ago she held a director position for 5 months (42k per year salary).. quit because wasn't making sense being away from kids and not making any more income after child care expenses.
Currently is substitute teaching (earns about 90 a day), but is sporadic at best (maybe 2-3 times a week at best).


let's say that I bring home 5200 a month.
We are budget negative currently; we are draining our savings each month.
We currently reside in a 2 bedroom apartment for $800 month (not including utilities)
we had bought property to build but that is on hold and will most likely be sold and shared 50/50 during divorce..

Child support for my state will be around 1200 per month if we both have 50/50 custody (which we have agreed to).

So, that leaves 4000 a month. My best bet is we go through 1500 a month in groceries EASILY.. my kids eat like no other, but I have read that the CS is supposed to cover that.

What would be reasonable to split with her with the remaining amount of 4k per month.

I have NO idea where to even start with this. In my state (MI), they consider standard of living and expect the wage earner to help maintain that standard of living.

So.. would that be the 800 rent plus another 600 in utilities/fuel ect?

That would leave me with 2600 per month left over.. so only 1300 per check every two weeks.

if she works, she would actually be making more than me per month at this rate/breakdown??? that doesn't seem right to me.

seems that I need to figure in some sort of income that she should be expected to bring in?


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

DO NOT determine your alimony without your lawyer, and pay the minimum you are required. You are in an emotional frame of mind right now that you will regret later on when you watch her support her OM with YOUR hard-earned money. 

She needs to start looking for full-time work NOW, whether she wants to or not. Remember - she ONLY cares about your money, not about you. All her sweetness and friendliness are so she can get what she wants, not out of any genuine feeling for you. The fact that she offered to PAY you for a back rub is so highly manipulative, I can't believe she's actually SO cold-hearted while trying to appear caring...it's a little concerning (along with other red-flags).

You need a lawyer's help with this!


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

it doesn't matter what we can tell you about what's fair, and what's not. What YOUR lawyer tells you is what matters. You should already had discussed it with a lawyer already. if not, what are you waiting for? like I said before, for you to get rake over the coals? your choice.


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## LonelyHiker (Dec 15, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> DO NOT determine your alimony without your lawyer, and pay the minimum you are required. You are in an emotional frame of mind right now that you will regret later on when you watch her support her OM with YOUR hard-earned money.
> 
> She needs to start looking for full-time work NOW, whether she wants to or not. Remember - she ONLY cares about your money, not about you. All her sweetness and friendliness are so she can get what she wants, not out of any genuine feeling for you. The fact that she offered to PAY you for a back rub is so highly manipulative, I can't believe she's actually SO cold-hearted while trying to appear caring...it's a little concerning (along with other red-flags).
> 
> You need a lawyer's help with this!


I am scheduling a appointment with a lawyer to get a consultation, but we are both going. I have a friend who is a lawyer and he said that I need to come up with the numbers of what I would be willing to pay before we go so I have a negotiating point to start from. She has always ran the finances and I know this is where/when things are going to turn ugly quickly. Going thru the numbers above, I don't think its reasonable to start off with splitting my monthly income directly in half to begin with. Doing that does NOT account for her bringing in ANY income which is simply not at option at this point. I could see showing her grace for 2-4 months to find an suitable job but I think if I'm already giving her 1200 a month for the kids I should only have to kick in a little more to help her offset the wage difference between us.


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## LonelyHiker (Dec 15, 2020)

Rob_1 said:


> it doesn't matter what we can tell you about what's fair, and what's not. What YOUR lawyer tells you is what matters. You should already had discussed it with a lawyer already. if not, what are you waiting for? like I said before, for you to get rake over the coals? your choice.


Rob, we are trying to do a non-contested divorce. in my area, we would be dropping a minimum of 15k if we start involving lawyers/attorneys for each side. I guess this first visit is to more of a mediator or just to get a free consultation to see where we stand. My guess is that she will either try to bully me into what numbers she has in her head and when I say "no", it will go to individual lawyers.

Again.. trying to be amicable and give her a fair and reasonable settlement that takes care of the kids 1st, then both of our well being.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

LonelyHiker said:


> I am scheduling a appointment with a lawyer to get a consultation, but we are both going. I have a friend who is a lawyer and he said that I need to come up with the numbers of what I would be willing to pay before we go so I have a negotiating point to start from. She has always ran the finances and I know this is where/when things are going to turn ugly quickly. Going thru the numbers above, I don't think its reasonable to start off with splitting my monthly income directly in half to begin with. Doing that does NOT account for her bringing in ANY income which is simply not at option at this point. I could see showing her grace for 2-4 months to find an suitable job but I think if I'm already giving her 1200 a month for the kids I should only have to kick in a little more to help her offset the wage difference between us.


Actually, I completely agree with you here -- because you are already giving her child support even though you will have 50/50 custody, so you are being generous enough. Also, the "grace period" should be while you are separated, with the goal of her being fully employed by the time the divorce is final.

I do expect her true attitude to come out once she is faced with the reality of losing her marriage and her comfortable financial position, and when she feels like she cannot manipulate you anymore.

I hope you are doing as much of the 180 as you can, and that you've told the kids...


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

LonelyHiker said:


> Again.. trying to be amicable and give her a fair and reasonable settlement that takes care of the kids 1st, then both of our well being.


Be careful with "amicable" - it is SO subjective, and you can lose so much more than you need to using that as your guideline of how to proceed. 

Also, REMEMBER -- YOU have been FIRED by her from being the one who takes care of her well-being. That isn't what to consider when making decisions. What's best for YOU, and YOUR KIDS only.


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## joannacroc (Dec 17, 2014)

LonelyHiker said:


> Rob, we are trying to do a non-contested divorce. in my area, we would be dropping a minimum of 15k if we start involving lawyers/attorneys for each side. I guess this first visit is to more of a mediator or just to get a free consultation to see where we stand. My guess is that she will either try to bully me into what numbers she has in her head and when I say "no", it will go to individual lawyers.
> 
> Again.. trying to be amicable and give her a fair and reasonable settlement that takes care of the kids 1st, then both of our well being.


It's wonderful that you are trying to be fair first, and avoid high-cost conflict, but definitely echo statements of others to talk to a lawyer about amounts. People always talk about being fair but when you get right down to numbers, people get really nasty and can change their minds about what they think they're entitled to.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

I think YOU should see a lawyer by yourself just to get some guidelines like what you are looking into cleared up.
That should give you a much better plan on what to offer.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Okay @LonelyHiker ... there is some good news and some bad news. 

The State of Michigan does not have an "alimony calculator" per se, which is good. You see, rather than just "punch in the numbers and here's what you pay," your state does not use a mathematical formula and takes things into consideration. So YOUR JOB is going to be to gather together what will be taken into consideration, and to be able to prove those things (not just, you feeling like she "shouldn't" but rather actually documenting things), and then to make an offer that is as fair as you can. 

So ... first and foremost *read the Michigan divorce laws* here: Michigan Legislature - Chapter 552 I know it's dry and boring to read the laws, but you can not present your best case if you aren't knowledgeable. Knowledge is power. So read up! It's a little confusing, but go section by section.

Next, using the figures of about $14k annually for her ($90*3 days/wee * 52 weeks), and about $62,400 annually for you...and considering the facts that she has been a SAHM for 15 years, guessing you'all are mid-40's, and considering that 15 years ago she made $42k annually. I will assume you'll agree to each of you getting your own home/dwelling and that the land you bought to build on will be sold and the proceeds split (I'm guessing you're equity on the land isn't super high). So essentially, you each get your own place. 

Here are the kinds of things a judge considers when determining alimony:

*1. Did the marriage last more than five years? More than ten? More than twenty?*
So you have a long-term marriage (20 years) and long-term SAHM (15 years). 

*2. Is the paying spouse (you) able to maintain a reasonable lifestyle while making alimony payments?*
If you split it 50/50 you'd have access to about $3k/mo and so would she, so neither one of you will be living high on the hog here. But that is the reality of divorce. I suspect at the beginning will be the hardest and you'll both likely need foodstamps, but this is what happens!

*3. Is the recipient spouse (her) at too old an age to make re-entry into the workforce a highly profitable endeavor?*
You say she substitutes so I'm guessing her degree is some sort of education-related degree. Right now, in both public and private schools, the job market is in flux due to COVID. But with that kind of degree and an age of mid-40's she should be able to find something... TODAY in my school district, a para or secretary makes $20/hour and a certificated teacher with just a BA starts at $48k. So figure maybe $35k when she starts.

*4. Is the health of the recipient spouse (her) not well enough to allow for full-employment?*
I haven't heard you mention health issues, so I'm assuming she's healthy.

*5. Is the recipient spouse (her) not well educated enough to support their lifestyle given the current job climate?*
You said she has a degree and 15 years ago had a job for $42k so she can AT LEAST start. We all start and then work our way up to higher paying jobs.

*6. Is the recipient spouse (her) able to work or must they care full-time for minor children or a disabled adult?*
Your youngest is 8yo, and the others are middle school/high school ages...so some after-school care might be most involved for the youngest but the others could possibly "fend for themselves" a bit after school and could probably watch their little brother! I mean, what would either one of you spouses do if the other one just happened to die one day? It's not ideal but you find a way, right? I'm going to say no for the full-time child care.

*7. Did the paying spouse (you) receive the majority of property in the Marital Settlement?*
No--it sounds like neither one of you are really getting much property.

*8. Did the recipient spouse (her) contribute quite a bit to the ownership of property now allotted to the paying spouse?*
So did she contribute 100% of the down payment for the property you were going to build on? Or did you share that contribution? If you shared, then this is not an issue to consider.

*9. Did the recipient spouse (her) have to ignore opportunities for employment in the past because of domestic duties.*
Ah...this may be a "yes" but the issue will be for you to prove "TO WHAT DEGREE." See, if she was SAHM while your kids could have done their own after-school care and she turned down employment opportunities, at some point she COULD HAVE BEEN EARNING and she made the choice to not earn. See what I mean? Now the youngest is pretty young--and I could see after he was born she had to stay home for him maybe until he entered 1st grade! But after that, he was in school most of the day AND had big brothers or sisters to watch him after school. She COULD HAVE worked and made the decision to not work. See what I mean?

*Lots of states look at it a bit like this: You make $5200/mo and she makes $1100/mo for a total each month of $6300/mo. Ideally, come up with some arrangement that starts with you having access to about $3150/mo and her having access to about $3150/mo. Thus, if she already makes $1100/mo you'd have to give her about $2050/mo (CS and alimony) and you've have split it roughly. You might want to start here.*

However, I HIGHLY doubt she'll like this, because she's going from a standard of living with income of $6300/mo at her disposal...to an income of just $3000/mo AND she has to take care of the kids (half the time) AND she has to do all the household chores by herself, etc. She'll likely try for more like $2000 in CS and $2000 in alimony! LOL Of course, the response to that is that she'd have access to $5100/mo and be leaving you with only $1200/mo and see question #2 above--you can't live off $1200/mo. So do your best to get near $3150/mo INCOME each...and don't forget to split the debts fairly too!

You may want to begin documenting what income could be *imputed to her*--which means documenting what you believe she COULD make! To document this, you'd list jobs in your area, in her industry, with her degree. You would get copies of past paychecks (indicating "she can earn this"). You'd get after-school program quotes (a cost the two of you would share). Make sense? Imputation depends on these things: (1) prior employment experience; (2) education level; (3) physical and mental abilities; (4) the presence of parties’ children in the individual’s home and its impact on the earnings; (5) availability of employment in the local geographical area; (6) the prevailing wage rates in the local geographical area; (7) special skills and training or (8) whether there is any evidence that the individual in question is able to earn the imputed income. So document the truth of these matters.

THEN your alimony might look more like this: Temporary support for the first year [you make $5200/mo & she makes $1100/mo] = $1000 CS and $1000/mo alimony...oldest is 16yo (this is just "status quo" while you actually go through the legal process of divorcing). Periodic support for the second year [you make $5200/mo & she makes $2600/mo] while she updates her teaching certificate--CS is the same and alimony is $300/mo...oldest is 17yo. Periodic support for the third year [you make $5200/mo & she makes $3500/mo)--CS is the same and alimony is $0...oldest is 18yo. Fourth year, CS is decreased because oldest is now 19yo...and each time a child reaches majority it goes down until the youngest is 18yo. ALL THAT TIME, you maintain your household with the kids half the time...and she maintains her own separate household with the kids the other half the time.


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## LonelyHiker (Dec 15, 2020)

Affaircare said:


> Okay @LonelyHiker ... there is some good news and some bad news.
> 
> The State of Michigan does not have an "alimony calculator" per se, which is good. You see, rather than just "punch in the numbers and here's what you pay," your state does not use a mathematical formula and takes things into consideration. So YOUR JOB is going to be to gather together what will be taken into consideration, and to be able to prove those things (not just, you feeling like she "shouldn't" but rather actually documenting things), and then to make an offer that is as fair as you can.
> 
> ...


Wow.. great information here.. thank you so much. I can clarify some things as well..

5. It was only 5 years ago that she got hired and made had the salary of 42k/year. She has worked in the medical field (certified holistic health coach and nutritional coach); so she could get back into that without needing to recertify or gain additional skills/training.

7. I have suggested we sell the property (lake-front) and all associated equipment that is currently on it.. we bought it 2 years ago for 58k. We have improved it and placed a small shed and a $4200 shipping container on it as well. I have a backhoe ($9k and dozer $6k) at the property currently. if we split that down the middle, we each walk away with about 38k. We have about 40k left in the bank from the sale of our house.. so we each get another 20k from that. In total, she and I will walk away with about 58k each as "savings". I plan to split my 401k with her down the middle, so she will get about 120k from that as well. All other real property we are just going to split (i.e. i get the tools, she gets the pots/pans ect). for any property (literal or real), I was the sole income so that paid for everything. everything was acquired after marriage.

As for the calculations.. I'm assuming she should be able to start working more immediately, she doesn't need to wait until we are divorced and in Michigan, you have to wait 6 months anyways. so, even if we double what she is currently making, that's still only 25k a year (only 12:50 an hour, which you can almost get at a fast food place by us now). Not saying I want her to do that, but I think a higher paying job is VERY possible even if its not in her background. I have seen factory jobs for $14-$16.
So, based on that, I'm assuming 5200+2200 (her making only 13.75/hr but working full time)… so full monthly amount is now 7400/2 = 3700. So, if she is already bringing in 2200, that leaves me with making up 1500 a month. that's 1000 for CS and 500 alimony. That still leaves me with 5200-1500 = 3700 a month to live on.  Which is reasonable.. not the best but reasonable. With that, and the savings, I can atleast get a place for about 800 a month... still have my own 1000 per month to support kids and have 1900 left for bills, fuel for work and whatever else. Then my position would be that if she makes more than 2200 per month, that the 500 would be reduced eventually down to zero. I don't know if I have to do it for 1 year.. seems to me like is she can start making 34k a year to start.. then I wouldn't have to provide anything. She is already getting 58k in the bank as savings and over 120k in a 401.. so she has made out from the 20 years of being a SAHM. 

Not to be sexist, but in most cases, she will more than likely find another man to help provide income if she gets married anyways so the alimony would not be there anyways.
I can't fight the CS too much since I do have to take care of them regardless and right now, the state calculator puts it around 1000-1100 anyways.

Not ideal, but not a situation where I can't move on myself either by renting or trying to buy some cheap small house to fix up down the road or immediately. Then factor in CS coming off in a few years for each child as they age out and any raises I get at work or promotions... and we should both be able to move on nicely and without fear of living in a van down by the river..


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

LonelyHiker said:


> I am scheduling a appointment with a lawyer to get a consultation, but we are both going. I have a friend who is a lawyer and he said that I need to come up with the numbers of what I would be willing to pay before we go so I have a negotiating point to start from. She has always ran the finances and I know this is where/when things are going to turn ugly quickly. Going thru the numbers above, I don't think its reasonable to start off with splitting my monthly income directly in half to begin with. Doing that does NOT account for her bringing in ANY income which is simply not at option at this point. I could see showing her grace for 2-4 months to find an suitable job but I think if I'm already giving her 1200 a month for the kids I should only have to kick in a little more to help her offset the wage difference between us.


You each need your own lawyer.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Get this amicable divorce/uncontested thing out of your head. It’s just not going to happen for you. 
your stbxw just doesn’t sound like the type. Realize, even if this is done right, she. An still take you. Ack to court for more anytime, and she very well may do that.

I hate to be so pessimistic, but this is just how these things go down. You need to strip thinking about how you wish things would go, and start dealing with how they are going to go.

shes almost sure to get her own lawyer, and her lawyer gets more money, the more they get out of you. There’s just far, far too much incentive for both your wife and the legal system to take advantage of you. Protect yourself, or you won’t be able to take care of your kids.


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## Trident (May 23, 2018)

An amicable divorce isn't going to happen because there isn't enough money for both of you to live on. 

You will most likely end up giving her considerably more than half the take home pay because she will get primary custody.

That's typically how it goes down. 

Just remember it's not forever, but don't hope for her to get married because she's no fool- she won't be willing to give up that spousal support. If she meets a guy and is smart they'll cohabitate but not mingle funds so you can't make a case for eliminating spousal support.


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## LonelyHiker (Dec 15, 2020)

trident said:


> An amicable divorce isn't going to happen because there isn't enough money for both of you to live on.
> 
> You will most likely end up giving her considerably more than half the take home pay because she will get primary custody.
> 
> ...


So far, from what I have read, in Michigan the trend is for the court to award 50/50 custody. She has always said she wants to do what is best for the kids and that would be best for them. Not sure why the court would NOT grant 50/50 if I am asking for it. What would be her argument against it (other than trying to make it look like I couldn't take care of them so she could get more money).

My therapist said "this is about to get Real for her"... and I think I see what he was saying now. She has been assuming how this will go in her head and that romanticized idea of divorce is about to come crashing down. I think I am the only one currently trying to look at it logically from both stand points... where she is only looking at maintaining her quality of life and I just get the scraps of what's left over.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

It’s about to get real for you, too, sadly. The crazy train is headed downhill at full throttle.
I hope you have a super good attorney.


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

My exH and I used a mediator and she gave us the state mandated amounts of CS and alimony. We didn’t have to decide for ourselves. I’d get a real mediator and your wife has to get a job before you can decide anything.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Mediation can work great if you have two realistic people. I’m not sure your wife is.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

So glad we don't have alimony here in Australia. Crazy concept. 

You both need your own lawyer, it could well cost you much more than the cost of a lawyer if this goes to **** quickly, and odds are it will. Your wife's cushy lifestyle is about to do a complete 180.

Given that she's been a SAHM, it would be reasonable for you to support her for 6-12 months to give her time to find a full time job, but no more than that.


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## LonelyHiker (Dec 15, 2020)

notmyjamie said:


> My exH and I used a mediator and she gave us the state mandated amounts of CS and alimony. We didn’t have to decide for ourselves. I’d get a real mediator and your wife has to get a job before you can decide anything.


NMJ > so, in Michigan, we have a CS calculator but not an alimony calculator. As of now, the CS would be 1300 a month. I bring home 5200 a month.

I don't think I can provide comfortably for 4 kids on less than 3300 a month.. That would leave me with paying her an additional 600 a month alimony.

she would be essentially getting 1900 a month. I think it would be up to her to make up the difference to get to the 3300 that I would be living on.

IF she works full time, she would only need to make $12.50/Hr working full time, and her degree and certifications would allow her to easily make more than that per hour.

I dont' think it's unreasonable to expect her to get a full time job now since I am working full time and will be expected to take care of the kids 50% of the time, why wouldn't she?

Any thoughts on this?


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

You need to have this all signed off on and legal. It's not for you to determine. Get an attorney and she must get one too and work it all out legally.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

frusdil said:


> So glad we don't have alimony here in Australia. Crazy concept.


RIGHT!?!? I mean, I get it if there's LOTS of money created during the marriage, but just normal every-day couples, I don't usually think it's right!!


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