# Workplace affairs and HR



## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

I have a question. On another infidelity forum, I often see people talking about reporting people who are having an affair together to HR to get them fired. And it confuses me. Because: how is that in any way grounds for firing or "getting into trouble with HR"? Especially if others in the workplace aren't even aware of the affair (as in, it's not interfering with work productivity or other employees)?


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Livvie said:


> I have a question. On another infidelity forum, I often see people talking about reporting people who are having an affair together to HR to get them fired. And it confuses me. Because: how is that in any way grounds for firing or "getting into trouble with HR"? Especially if others in the workplace aren't even aware of the affair (as in, it's not interfering with work productivity or other employees)?


Unless there is a company policy against colleagues dating, then I don't see how they have grounds for firing.

The only time I have heard of someone getting fired is when it's a supervisor having an affair with a subordinate. Usually the supervisor gets fired for conflict of interest.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Livvie said:


> I have a question. On another infidelity forum, I often see people talking about reporting people who are having an affair together to HR to get them fired. And it confuses me. Because: how is that in any way grounds for firing or "getting into trouble with HR"? Especially if others in the workplace aren't even aware of the affair (as in, it's not interfering with work productivity or other employees)?


Some companies do have a non-fraternization rule or even a "no dating" clause. Usually it all depends on how.big the company is


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Okay, that's what I thought as well, but the pretty regular comments about HR reporting on that other forum (SI) had me wondering!


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## Robert22205 (Jun 6, 2018)

Almost all companies listed on a nationwide stock exchange,most government agencies, major non profits, and schools & hospitals have: standards of conduct. 

Standards vary in purpose and can relate to internal control & separation of duties, productivity, company reputation, as well as to what the law requires. And sometimes it's just what the owner (or governing board) demands from employees. 

There's also a Federal anti sexual harassment law (and most states have piggy backed), where if one of the participants is a supervisor or holds a non supervisory senior position of authority - dating anyone of lesser authority (even a non direct report) could be viewed as sexual harassment/illegal. Basically, the person with no/less power is assumed to be a victim and won't be fired (i.e., they had no power and could not say no) and can collect monetary damages from the employer & the affair partner. Other workers may collect too if the affair created a hostile work environment. 

I attended in-house training seminars where we were given a bright line: if you're a boss or hold a position of authority - don't date within our organization.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Yes, I get the having a relationship with your boss/supervisor issue, but a lot of the discussion I've seen on that infidelity forum is just about regular co workers having a relationship and advice to report it to HR to get them fired *because is an affair*. If that's true and it happens... I have to say I don't believe HR should police marriages and affairs.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Livvie said:


> Yes, I get the having a relationship with your boss/supervisor issue, but a lot of the discussion I've seen on that infidelity forum is just about regular co workers having a relationship and advice to report it to HR to get them fired *because is an affair*. If that's true and it happens... I have to say I don't believe HR should police marriages and affairs.


If it’s carried on using *company phones or email *(it’s not personal at that point).

Most large companies have an ethics clause.


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## willistrong (Jan 2, 2020)

Yes, I agree with you


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## willistrong (Jan 2, 2020)

I consider that it is a problem


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Marc878 said:


> Livvie said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, I get the having a relationship with your boss/supervisor issue, but a lot of the discussion I've seen on that infidelity forum is just about regular co workers having a relationship and advice to report it to HR to get them fired *because is an affair*. If that's true and it happens... I have to say I don't believe HR should police marriages and affairs.
> ...


Well, so a co worker can make the occasional call or email with company phone and email to someone they are intimately involved with, but just not if it's an extra marital intimate relationship? That kind of blows my mind.

I've never been exposed to an ethics clause. Someone can get fired for cheating on their spouse???

Just a disclaimer: I'm only discussing this, spurred on by what I've read people discussing on forums. I'm single, and I don't go near married men, so it's not applicable to me.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Livvie said:


> Marc878 said:
> 
> 
> > Livvie said:
> ...


I have known people who were fired for that. Falls under Ethics Code in some employment contracts


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## Meredith767 (Jan 3, 2020)

I appreciate your input Robert22205. My husband finds 90% of the women he's attracted to, at work. (I have a current post here about what's normal for a married man? I found 100+ women on his phone that he has done searches on, phone numbers, addresses, social media, etc. and I'm not sure what all else). I just found these in December and this has been going on for 10+ years at 2 different major employers - household names. Now I'm really worried that if something is discovered that happened with even just one, my husband is in his 50's (in a managerial role) and the women in their 20's typically, we have more to lose than my sanity, financially speaking. I need to give this even more thought and see how I can cover my ASSets.


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## Bluesclues (Mar 30, 2016)

Numb26 said:


> Livvie said:
> 
> 
> > Marc878 said:
> ...


While it may be possible, I think in the vast majority of cases that would not happen, clause or no clause. I think it is some of the lamest advice given on infidelity sites and is just to give reconciling BS a false sense that they have some control. It drives me nuts every time I read it. 

That is the threat I used to my WH and the COW. That I had an email written and ready to hit send to their supervisors and the CEO of the company. Showed I knew their email addresses to prove I meant business (Like the CEO of a huge multinational company was going to care that my husband was schtupping a coworker on their lunch hour as long as they got their work done.) If I had sent it I guarantee they both would’ve been called in and questioned. My husband would've apologized for his wife being crazy, but he and ButtfaceCOW are only friends. Buttface would say the same. End investigation. No firing. No justice. Just more **** sandwich for this BS to eat. 

My company has a no fraternizing clause. Awhile back there was a married guy fooling around with a single younger woman. Everyone knew. They even fooled around in his office. The company took the door off of his office to prevent the at-work antics. Seriously. 

People can say they know people who were fired, and those stories are a great, but I don’t think most BS will get the outcome they desire. Companies care about profits and public relations. Most people have jobs that don’t impact PR.


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## Slow Hand (Oct 4, 2015)

Numb26 said:


> I have known people who were fired for that. Falls under Ethics Code in some employment contracts


No way, not everyone wants a lying cheat working for them? :surprise:


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

One of my employees let me know he was getting divorced because he cheated on his wife with his current girlfriend. (I think he just wanted someone to confess to). 

From my point of view - if it doesn't impact his work, its not a workplace issue. I'd feel the same if I found out about an affair at my office. (which I have a couple of time). Unless its a supervisor and report, its just not something related to the workplace and I see no reason to get involved. 

Of course even in personal life, I'm very slow to judge, not having lived in the other person's shoes.


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## ClairesDad (Aug 27, 2013)

This thread hit home. My first wife and I worked for a large company. My wife was a manager in HR. She had an affair with the company CFO, among others. During the economic downturn in 2008 we both got laid off. I don't know if her affair had anything to do with her losing her job, but I'm sure it didn't help. It wasn't a very well kept secret among management.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

One company I worked for showed us a video saying that not only is it forbidden to make sexual advances on anyone at work, but someone who accepts your sexual advances can make a complaint at a later date even though they once gave you permission. 

They also said you can be held personally liable and can be sued, I would also suspect that something like touching a coworker could open you up to criminal charges.


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## oldtruck (Feb 15, 2018)

Exposure is the only effective tool to end an affair.
the more targets that the BS exposes the affair to the more effective exposure is.
companies have policies against work place affairs because allowing them to take
place allows lawsuits to happen against the company. And usually the company is the
one with the deep pockets.

Even if the PA was consensual the WW now claims sexual harassment from her OM 
now that her BH is divorcing her leaving her without financial support. She has to
save her financial ass.

Also fellow employees will claim harm and sue for discrimination because they were
denied their promotion, and or raise, because john/jane got it by sleeping their way to the
top. 

Then do not forget the angry BS comes into the office seeking revenge and the physical
and sometimes lethal acts committed at the scene of the crime aka the work place.

this has nothing to do with the corporate world have morals. rather protecting their own
financial ass from law suits and physical assaults happening at the work place, then
more law suits as a result due to the seeking of revenge/justice.


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## zookeeper (Oct 2, 2012)

Remember, managers and HR staff are humans with agendas just like anyone else. If your boss doesn't like you and sees an opportunity to get rid of you without getting any blood on his/her hands you can bet they will. Anti-fraternization policies are largely ignored until their enforcement becomes convenient. 

My previous employer is a Fortune 500 company with an employee handbook the thickness of a telephone book. There was prpbably some vague way of being Iin violation of something for putting too much sugar in your coffee. There were lots of HR complaints, some ridiculous and some very serious. The enforcement of complaints was highly variable based upon who liked you and who didn't. Performance had less to do with the final decision than you would think. 

As always, play stupid games and win stupid prizes. Anyone who values their job and career is a fool to engage in such behavior in or related to the workplace. Don't come crying to me if you bang your coworker i the back of your company car and lose your job.

That being said, I can't say I'm a big fan of pursuing such a course of action against your spouse's AP. Expose to their spouse? Absolutely. However, interrupting that person's livelihood will serve to hurt innocents such as their spouse and children. Your spouse is your problem. The AP is merely a symptom. Let their spouse deal with them. If that person is single, what did your spouse tell them? Did they even know he/she was married? The whole thing is really fraught with problems.


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## redwingpentagon (Apr 10, 2019)

My wifes told me she fooled around with 2 guys from a mill where she worked when she was 23 or so they were much older . I was like wtf how does that work . That seem like poor form lol


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Marc878 said:


> If it’s carried on using *company phones or email *(it’s not personal at that point).
> 
> Most large companies have an ethics clause.


Regardless of additional policies any relationship type communiques on company devices is an absolute no-no.

Other than that, if neither party is in the direct report chain if the other or there's a potential decision making influence than carry on.

Obvious stuff.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

redwingpentagon said:


> My wifes told me she fooled around with 2 guys from a mill where she worked when she was 23 or so they were much older . I was like wtf how does that work . That seem like poor form lol


Perhaps the mill wasn't a corporate environment. 

In construction, physical type jobs in the field, many field rep jobs in general; affairs are rampant. 

Hence the black eyes quickly assigned to those persons who travel for a living.

Especially those who travel to the same cities or locations regularly and for years. People are human and familiarity grows between folks who see each other repeatedly.


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## redwingpentagon (Apr 10, 2019)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Perhaps the mill wasn't a corporate environment.
> 
> In construction, physical type jobs in the field, many field rep jobs in general; affairs are rampant.
> 
> ...


Perhaps its a pretty big place run by a gaint corporation. Young lady all those older dudes working cant blame her lol.
I agree with you to on your thoughts. I have just always worked in professional smaller setting so i never would want the trouble.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

@Livvie, 

It's my understanding that two consenting adults can do what they want, and no "corporation" is going to get in the middle of that. 

BUT...

If one is the supervisor of the other...then the company is vulnerable to a sexual harrassment lawsuit, and technically the BS can be the one to bring the lawsuit because the sexual advances at the office toward the WS were unwanted by the BS. 

If one of the AP's used company resources to carry on the affair, then again, the company is legally vulnerable because those resources are supposed to go for advancing the company's profits and nothing else. Sooo...using the company laptop to flirt, the company cell phone to text, the company expense account for lunches, or the company travel for romantic rendevous all leave the company legally vulnerable. 


Now the people at the top may be having affairs themselves, and it may be "a guys' (or gals') club" and they all turn a blind eye. But by reporting to HR what you're doing is making a formal complaint that's in their employment record that the WS behaved in a way that broke company standards, that wasted company resources, etc. Nothing may come of it--you never know--but at least chances are good that someone in HR will say "What you do in your private life is your business, but don't do that in the office."


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## Taxman (Dec 21, 2016)

Let me speak to this from the perspective of being an employer for the last couple of decades, and from the perspective of being heavily dependent on an HR department in a previous life, to get me warm bodies to cover off the volume. In short, if there was an office affair, I would want to know about it, and I would terminate both employees with no second thought. I have been in an organization wherein two staff had an "office romance". It is deadly to an organization. We were upon discovery, nearly extorted into compliance. The betrayed spouse and their legal representatives were on a daily basis demanding depositions, statements, and security footage. It ground business to a halt on several occasions. This was a major multi national. The female was one of my manager's assistants. She started up with one of the purchasing clerks. Her husband was a regular joe, and had some regular joe ideas about other men having his wife. He was known to my office staff, and it was not unusual to have him in our offices between 11 and 2, which is lunch. What was unusual, is that he walked into purchasing, lifted the AP from his chair, and demolished him. He was in a heap on the floor. He was screaming that he was going to sue as well, as security should have kept him safe. F'ing goddamned mess. I turfed both of them in an hour. The ex husband was threatening legal action as the affair occurred on our premises (Property management assistant, took him to one of our empty apartments. Wondered why this thing stayed on the market as long as it did, got my answer. She was using it as their ****-pad.) I questioned the supers and they were suspicious, but she was extremely generous with them, and was their point of contact with the overall corporation. They were bullied into silence. I changed policies that day, that if there was a major concern, that my superintendents could contact me through a confidential line. My property managers and their assistants were unaware of my policy. These folks could contact me via my personal cell. I learned of things in my buildings that had been going on for decades. I also discharged three property managers. I do not like someone declaring their royal highness in properties that I am running.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

uhtred said:


> From my point of view - if it doesn't impact his work, its not a workplace issue.


Some employers and managers take a different view. Those believe that if a person would betray their spouse, they would certainly betray their employer.



Livvie said:


> Well, so a co worker can make the occasional call or email with company phone and email to someone they are intimately involved with, but just not if it's an extra marital intimate relationship? That kind of blows my mind.
> 
> I've never been exposed to an ethics clause. Someone can get fired for cheating on their spouse???


Some companies have a complete no personal use of company property policy, so any personal emails, calls, or texts could be grounds for firing.

Employees represent the company. If an affair comes to light or is even a rumor that will damage the employee's reputation and, by extension, the company's reputation. 

There is also legal liability if one of the AP's decides to sue for sexual harassment or hostile work environment, etc. Rather than be exposed to legal hassles, bye-bye, birdie.

Also, affairs bring with them drama. Employee's gossip and become divided on the issue. The AP's lose respect and trust. Some have psycho spouses who stalk the workplace and cause scenes. Best to get rid of one or both AP's to reduce or eliminate drama.



ClairesDad said:


> During the economic downturn in 2008 we both got laid off. I don't know if her affair had anything to do with her losing her job, but I'm sure it didn't help. It wasn't a very well kept secret among management.


I've worked at a telecom and listened to my father (management) talk while layoffs were being discussed and both companies absolutely used layoffs as an excuse to get rid of problems or potential problems. People known to have had affairs and drunks were the first to go.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Livvie said:


> I have a question. On another infidelity forum, I often see people talking about reporting people who are having an affair together to HR to get them fired. And it confuses me. Because: how is that in any way grounds for firing or "getting into trouble with HR"? Especially if others in the workplace aren't even aware of the affair (as in, it's not interfering with work productivity or other employees)?


The reasons behind this is supposed to be that the in order to reconcile, the cheating spouse has to end all contact with their affair partner. Reconciliation really cannot happen if there is still contact. So if the cheating spouse will not quit, then some suggest that the affair be reported to HR with hope that either the cheater, the AP or both are fired. This ends their contact if the affair has truly ended.

It makes sense in come situations. 

However, if the BS is not going for reconciliation then reporting the affair to HR to get someone fired is not a good idea. Why? Because if the BS's spouse is not working and they file for divorce, the BS will end up paying the WS spousal support at least until the WS finds a new job.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Affaircare said:


> @Livvie,
> 
> It's my understanding that two consenting adults can do what they want, and no "corporation" is going to get in the middle of that.
> 
> ...


Same.

Two of my peers had an affair years ago. The only time the company got involved was when it impacted a large project they were both on, and that one was going to report to the other in an org change.

It impacted their careers slightly, but not much. Unless it's an boss/employee subordinate relationship, HR isn't likely to do much.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Livvie said:


> I have a question. On another infidelity forum, I often see people talking about reporting people who are having an affair together to HR to get them fired. And it confuses me. Because: how is that in any way grounds for firing or "getting into trouble with HR"? Especially if others in the workplace aren't even aware of the affair (as in, it's not interfering with work productivity or other employees)?


Many places in the USA for sure have a no fraternization policy. For some it is a zero tolerance. For others it is any possible superior or higher level screwing a lower level employee. 

It is not that they really care that much, it is just risk management against lawsuits and for some it is an esprit de corps type of thing or both. 

In an affair situation, if the betrayed spouse does not need the money, then this is a good way for the betrayed spouse to end the affair in a heartbeat...


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Most larger corps that I’ve been involved with have yearly scheduled training classes on all this and emphasis is on the financial/legal impact.

However, I’ve seen a few higher level (VP, etc) get rugswept. Everyone knew but it was covered up usually with a transfer of the offending party.

Supervisor level there’s a good chance you’ll get the ax.


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## attheend02 (Jan 8, 2019)

Taxman said:


> Let me speak to this from the perspective of being an employer for the last couple of decades, and from the perspective of being heavily dependent on an HR department in a previous life, to get me warm bodies to cover off the volume. In short, if there was an office affair, I would want to know about it, and I would terminate both employees with no second thought.



I'm a little confused. Are you talking about elicit affairs between married couples or any office romance?

Seems harsh for a standard office romance.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

attheend02 said:


> I'm a little confused. Are you talking about elicit affairs between married couples or any office romance?
> 
> Seems harsh for a standard office romance.


Depends where you work. Most people don't work for major corporations that have a well paid legal team, an HR department, and employee numbers that make being semi-anonymous possible. They work for smaller companies who don't have a legal team, often don't have HR, and employ fewer people who all know each other. Even a regular non-affair dating situation can cause serious trouble if things go south in that environment. Between potential legal issues and office morale/productivity issues some employers find it prudent to send trouble on it's way.


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## Taxman (Dec 21, 2016)

attheend02 said:


> I'm a little confused. Are you talking about elicit affairs between married couples or any office romance?
> 
> Seems harsh for a standard office romance.


I have worked for small mom and pop operations and I have worked for large multi-national corporations. In 90% of the positions offcie "romances" reared their ugly heads. (This time I have formed basically a family company. Yes, we are nepotistic, however, in ten years we have yet to experience this) In one multi national, it was spelled out in the employee handbook that office romances were strictly forbidden. In a small Mom and Pop, the boss took up with the office manager. The knowledge of the affair made its way back to the wife. By the time the boss' wife was done, the boss was living in his mom's basement. The office manager lost her home, and was living in her daughter's spare room, and the company was put into bankruptcy at the betrayed wife's behest. 

Therefore, I do not consider my thoughts on office romances to be harsh.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Yep to all comments especially because it's a different world today.

A small office staff has never been good for romances but in days long ago, barring direct reporting problems, there was plenty of hanky panky. 

My first job out of college was in a large company, as well as traveling to widely spread out customer sites coast to coast and the mantra was when single women wanted to fool around it was how many and how fast.

Just reacting to customer demands, keeping the customer happy wink wink.

Us younger guys were always almost thrown to the wolves.

Different times......


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Inasfar as cheating is concerned, and whether a company will dismiss or disregard it, please know that is largely contingent upon a company's viewpoint of that activity. If they feel that cheating or fraternization among its ranks is, in any way, counterproductive to its performance or public perception, then it will be more concerned over it occurring amongst its ranks!

Whether the business is a sole proprietorship, partnership, or a corporation is largely immaterial! If a family has a controlling interest in the business, then it will be far more concerned about this activity over fears of public morals and perception.

When I worked in the oilfield back in the 80's, our company was a corporate entity with a general manager who had 88% controlling interest in it. He arbitrarily declared that conjugal fraternization was a no-no, and warned a salesman who had been dating another employee. He was summarily warned and upon doing so, decided to legally fight it so he disregarded the order and was eventually fired. HR had absolutely no stance in the company decision! 

The salesman ultimately took it through the federal court system where the appellate judges ruled that a company was well within its rights to banish such activity under those grounds.

All that I can say is to thoroughly know the political and ethical environment where you are working before you decide to lasciviously drop your pants there!*


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## justlistening (Jan 23, 2020)

There are large companies who have no fraternization policies. I know cheating can be an issue in the military as well as other government agencies.

However, in 2020, I am not sure how well protected a boss will be if he decides to fire an employee who is doing their job well simply because "I don't like affairs." I hate infidelity; however, if it is not affecting work and no work resources are being used, I would be hard-pressed to think anyone would have a legal leg to stand on unless they had a policy in place.

The main reason this is still advocated is for A. Exposure and B. No contact. It fits in with a variety of marriage recovery profit models (see: books/sites/experts)

Exposure and No contact are all well and good and definitely strategic marriage recovery techniques. However, it isn't the WS's boss' job to be the marriage police. It also isn't the place of a personal adultery vigilante, and the or she might well put the company in danger promoting such an agenda.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

justlistening said:


> There are large companies who have no fraternization policies. I know cheating can be an issue in the military as well as other government agencies.
> 
> However, in 2020, I am not sure how well protected a boss will be if he decides to fire an employee who is doing their job well simply because "I don't like affairs." I hate infidelity; however, if it is not affecting work and no work resources are being used, I would be hard-pressed to think anyone would have a legal leg to stand on unless they had a policy in place.
> 
> ...


In the USA, if the company has a policy of no fraternization, and affairs are just that, it is a no brainer. 

It has been held up in court multiple times. The company can set policies and rules for their employees. 

So people get fired for this stuff all the time and the person fired has little recourse, as it should be...


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## justlistening (Jan 23, 2020)

BluesPower said:


> justlistening said:
> 
> 
> > There are large companies who have no fraternization policies. I know cheating can be an issue in the military as well as other government agencies.
> ...


Which is why I mentioned policies. 

People who want their WS fired (or more likely the AP) because "affairs are bad" need to understand that not all HR managers use "Surviving Affairs" as an HR manual. And being prolific on a forum or stalking cheaters on the dark web doesn't give a manager the freedom to dole out his own private justice on behalf of his organization.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

I do think that you'd have to be fair, in that if you are going to fire two affair participating co-workers for fraternization, you'd also have to fire all the non affair participating workers who are fraternizing.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

Livvie said:


> I have a question. On another infidelity forum, I often see people talking about reporting people who are having an affair together to HR to get them fired. And it confuses me. Because: how is that in any way grounds for firing or "getting into trouble with HR"? Especially if others in the workplace aren't even aware of the affair (as in, it's not interfering with work productivity or other employees)?


 Oh hell.

This is just my experience (facility with approx 400 people). I worked in HR and one day my boss and I we were out on the production floor hanging posters in designated areas. No, we didn't NEED to both be doing it but it was encouraged by upper management that HR get out amongst the employees occasionally so we weren't looked upon like the fire breathing dragons everyone thinks HR people are. :x 

Quite by accident, we went into an electrical room that's off-limits to everyone (but is accessible due to the unlocked door) to hang a poster and happened upon two employees having some 'alone' time. One was married, the other wasn't. They were both dressed, but the room had been dark and boy did they jump when we opened the door and turned on the light. :rofl:

We didn't do a thing about it except tell them the room was OFF LIMITS to employees and not to come in there again. HR is NOT the morals police so I've never understood why anyone thinks calling HR to "tattle" on cheaters is some kind of victory and the cheaters will be shot behind the barn.

Now if they're stealing company resources or taking great amounts of time from their jobs because of it and their manager or coworkers are complaining about it, then THAT'S a different story and we have to follow up on the complaint.


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## manwithnoname (Feb 3, 2017)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Oh hell.
> 
> This is just my experience (facility with approx 400 people). I worked in HR and one day my boss and I we were out on the production floor hanging posters in designated areas. No, we didn't NEED to both be doing it but it was encouraged by upper management that HR get out amongst the employees occasionally so we weren't looked upon like the *fire breathing dragons* everyone thinks HR people are. :x


Except that we've seen a lot of your comments....


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## oldtruck (Feb 15, 2018)

justlistening said:


> There are large companies who have no fraternization policies. I know cheating can be an issue in the military as well as other government agencies.
> 
> However, in 2020, I am not sure how well protected a boss will be if he decides to fire an employee who is doing their job well simply because "I don't like affairs." I hate infidelity; however, if it is not affecting work and no work resources are being used, I would be hard-pressed to think anyone would have a legal leg to stand on unless they had a policy in place.
> 
> ...


liking or not liking affairs at work is not justifiable grounds to fire a person.
having an affair at the work place is justifiable when it is against company policy.
Such policies have nothing to do with a employer being the morality police.
it is all about protecting the business from lawsuits, and work place violence
as a result of the AP's having a work place affair.

how does anyone not see those facts?


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## justlistening (Jan 23, 2020)

oldtruck said:


> justlistening said:
> 
> 
> > There are large companies who have no fraternization policies. I know cheating can be an issue in the military as well as other government agencies.
> ...


Lol

You didn't read my post.

If there is a policy in place, then violation of it is grounds for dismissal of both parties.

But an honest assessment of all workplaces makes it undeniably clear that many workplaces do NOT have such policies.

In those cases, the company is not beholden to the teaching of a marriage author and businessman, even if he has a PhD.


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## oldtruck (Feb 15, 2018)

justlistening said:


> Lol
> 
> You didn't read my post.
> 
> ...


most small to medium sized businesses do not have formal policies. though when
an affair happens on the job and it becomes known those employees will be
eventually laid off for some reason as soon as possible to avoid potential law suits,
work place violence and damaging employee morale.

because management/ownership wants to eliminate problems before the may
detonate. 

There are exceptions were management does not care. Some managements use
their payroll as their own personal dating site.

affairs happen at large businesses that have formal anti fraternization policies.
yet people still have affairs there and nothing happens because they do not get
caught.

Whether there is or is not employer policy against affairs, or whether they get
caught or do not get caught, there is no justification to have affairs.


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## justlistening (Jan 23, 2020)

> Whether there is or is not employer policy against affairs, or whether they get
> caught or do not get caught, there is no justification to have affairs.


That is not the topic of this thread. In no way did I justify affairs.

But you illustrated my point perfectly. The fact that there ARE legal things to consider before firing someone just because "affairs are bad" doesn't mean affairs are justified. It is not justifiable for me to cuss out my husband (I don't lol) but if my employer found out and fired me because he found using curse words morally wrong...he'd not have a legal leg to stand on.

People who hate affairs also have to remain rational and live in the real world.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

justlistening said:


> But you illustrated my point perfectly. The fact that there ARE legal things to consider before firing someone just because "affairs are bad" doesn't mean affairs are justified. It is not justifiable for me to cuss out my husband (I don't lol) but if my employer found out and fired me because he found using curse words morally wrong...he'd not have a legal leg to stand on.


A lot of the legality depends on the state you live in. If your state is "at-will" employment, then employers can fire employees at any time as long as it's not a prohibited reason like racism, politics, sexual orientation, etc. That means the big boss can come in your office and say "you're fired" at pretty much any time. They don't need a reason. It could be the affair or no reason at all.

In some places there are things like defined procedures from the company or union which make it harder to fire people. In those cases, they may need to have an action plan and show that things didn't get better over time. So like a teacher or state worker may have these protections and would be harder to fire. 

But justification can matter when it comes to unemployment payments. If someone gets fired for having an affair and there was nothing about it in the employee handbook, then that ex-employee would be eligible for unemployment. Companies don't like when that happens since it increases their insurance costs. But if the handbook has something like a morality clause, then likely the person could be fired and would not be eligible for unemployment.

Keep in mind I'm not a lawyer. Be sure to consult with your own attorney before having a workplace affair


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## TomNebraska (Jun 14, 2016)

Assuming a company doesn't expressly prohibit office fraternization like that, I think generally relationships between supervisors and subordinates are still frowned upon, if not terminable offenses. Such relationships can easily lead to sexual harassment lawsuits, and obviously affect company morale, particularly if other employees feel the relationship is grounds for professional favoritism.

But I think a lot also depends on the nature of the relationship; really it should be no HR department's business what two consenting adults are doing on their own time. But if they're doing it on company time, in the office, etc. that's probably grounds for formal discipline, if not termination, regardless of whether there's a policy against fraternization or not.


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## oldtruck (Feb 15, 2018)

TomNebraska said:


> Assuming a company doesn't expressly prohibit office fraternization like that, I think generally relationships between supervisors and subordinates are still frowned upon, if not terminable offenses. Such relationships can easily lead to sexual harassment lawsuits, and obviously affect company morale, particularly if other employees feel the relationship is grounds for professional favoritism.
> 
> But I think a lot also depends on the nature of the relationship; really it should be no HR department's business what two consenting adults are doing on their own time. But if they're doing it on company time, in the office, etc. that's probably grounds for formal discipline, if not termination, regardless of whether there's a policy against fraternization or not.


it is HR business to make sure all employment policies are enforced all the time.
however HR does not seek out breaches of employment policy. Do not ask
do not tell, I see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil.

however when complaints are filed they will take action, because it is HR business
to act in the company's financial interests by preventing lawsuits.

coworkers can have a PA and do it off the premise and off hours without using
company assets and still be dismissed specially when one of the AP get preferred
assignments, raises, promotions from the person they are having sex with.


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