# Just making it work



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Have you ever felt disappointed, angry, frustrated, etc. with your spouse? While you felt that way, did you decide you were just going to love them anyway?

And did you get the feeling that sometimes they felt that way about you, too, but decided to be patient and love you, anyway?

I love dh, and dh loves me, but we, too, have had our share of conflict and disillusion. But we don't let it get us off the rails . . . _most of the time._

What is your experience of just making it work, even when you were not delighted? When have you just decided to be loving and kind to your spouse, even when maybe you did not _feel_ loving and kind? Did it soften his/her heart? Did it soften yours?

And if you have had times when you just decided that from your end, you were going to make it work, what made you take that approach?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Ooh, tough question JLD. 

My husband tends to be far too passive for my tastes. Although it can sometimes be a great asset in many different ways, sometimes the passivity just gets on my nerves. Yesterday was one of those days. I decided to forget it and focus on the times he hasn't been too passive. It worked.

The question keeps popping up though, how much ignoring is reasonable?


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## lucyloo (Dec 3, 2013)

I think it is only normal to feel that way in any marriage. 

I have at times, a very destructive husband. I feel like all I do is overlook how cruel he can be to me, so that I can make our marriage work. But to be honest...it feels like my love for him is starting to decay. You put up with being called enough names and bullied enough that the foundation of love you built starts to crumble. My husband's last "outburst" was last week and I still haven't been able to fully forgive him...I don't even want to be touched by him. He has said sorry probably close to 1000 times for all the mean things he's said to me over the years. At this point his apologies are just hollow to me because in my head when he apologizes all I can think is "until next time". 

I have been told by plenty of people to leave (including on the forums here). But the only person who can really decide when it is time is me. And I'm not sure I want to leave...I want to fight for my marriage. I could write an essay on the leaps and bounds my husband has made from the dark place he used to be. He owned up to his flaws, sought out extensive therapy and made a commitment to change. But I know that personal growth and evolution is a constant uphill battle. 

I guess what makes me stay is that I still love him. And as long as I love him, I will fight for us. 

Once the love is gone...I don't think there is any point. I just hope that never happens.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Ooh, tough question JLD.
> 
> My husband tends to be far too passive for my tastes. Although it can sometimes be a great asset in many different ways, sometimes the passivity just gets on my nerves. Yesterday was one of those days. I decided to forget it and focus on the times he hasn't been too passive. It worked.
> 
> The question keeps popping up though, how much ignoring is reasonable?


That is a good question. What are our individual limits?

I was annoyed, okay, actually furious, yesterday. Dh said something that I thought was just clueless. Clueless, I tell you. Today it doesn't seem so bad. 

I actually feel kind of bad about how mad I got. I apologized to him, and he told me he is the one who should apologize, and that he was really sorry he hurt my feelings. That made me feel better, that my feelings were being respected, even if after the fact.

Dh doesn't really care about words. He doesn't get upset easily, so words that would bother me tend to roll off his back. The problem, of course, is that those words do not roll off my back.

I just have to accept it, and tell him every time he says something that hurts my feelings. And it is good to hear why he sees things the way he does. Often I would not have seen it his way.

It is one of those things that is not going to change, and I really just have to be tolerant.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

lucyloo said:


> I think it is only normal to feel that way in any marriage.
> 
> I have at times, a very destructive husband. I feel like all I do is overlook how cruel he can be to me, so that I can make our marriage work. But to be honest...it feels like my love for him is starting to decay. You put up with being called enough names and bullied enough that the foundation of love you built starts to crumble. My husband's last "outburst" was last week and I still haven't been able to fully forgive him...I don't even want to be touched by him. He has said sorry probably close to 1000 times for all the mean things he's said to me over the years. At this point his apologies are just hollow to me because in my head when he apologizes all I can think is "until next time".
> 
> ...


Oh, my gosh, lucy. That sounds tough. Impossible, actually, to me. He calls you names? He bullies you? No wonder people are telling you to leave him.

Well, you are a stronger person than I am. I could not take that. You must really, really care about him. And you have seen progress, so that gives you hope. 

My goodness, you have a strong, generous heart, lucy. All the best.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

You're not doing it to make it work. You're doing it to get it done.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> You're not doing it to make it work. You're doing it to get it done.


And on that note, how is your birthday going, john?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Pretty well. Homemade pizza on flatbread, beer, etc etc. 

I'm playing with the G16 now, then Game of Thrones.


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

lucyloo said:


> I think it is only normal to feel that way in any marriage.
> 
> I have at times, a very destructive husband. I feel like all I do is overlook how cruel he can be to me, so that I can make our marriage work. But to be honest...it feels like my love for him is starting to decay. You put up with being called enough names and bullied enough that the foundation of love you built starts to crumble. My husband's last "outburst" was last week and I still haven't been able to fully forgive him...I don't even want to be touched by him. He has said sorry probably close to 1000 times for all the mean things he's said to me over the years. At this point his apologies are just hollow to me because in my head when he apologizes all I can think is "until next time".
> 
> ...


You seem to be describing emotional abuse. Imagine for each session of name calling he, instead, hit you 3 or 4 times.....hard. would you imagine that to be worse? It wouldn't be. Each instance of verbal/emotional abuse during your marriage has done damage to your self esteem, your self confidence. Over time the damage is cumulative, and serious. In my mind more serious than physical bruises, bleeding,broken bones etc.

Children?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

> *jld said*: I was annoyed, okay, actually furious, yesterday. Dh said something that I thought was just clueless. Clueless, I tell you. Today it doesn't seem so bad.
> 
> I actually feel kind of bad about how mad I got. I apologized to him, and he told me he is the one who should apologize, and that he was really sorry he hurt my feelings. That made me feel better, that my feelings were being respected, even if after the fact.
> 
> ...


 This is one of those 2 sided coins....one of the things YOU LOVE and praise very highly in your dear husband is his ability to STAND and not be moved -when you Emote on him....he doesn't leave your side...and he is not hurt by anything you say... you look upon this as being a Strong Man....like that strong Tower --- and you admire this..

But the downside to this is .. that he doesn't fully grasp the sensitive nature of women and why we can BE so easily hurt by words... 

I often say on here.. I CAN HURT MY HUSBAND ....with words/ with my actions....but I don't see this as a bad thing or an unfavorable thing.. Because on that flip side....he is sensitive to my feminine emotions and can empathize with them...

We were watching an old movie today "The Man in the moon" ...and I started crying when Cort was ran over by the tractor, the devastation/ young love.. too much to bear....and he whispers to me "this is why I love you so much"...

For my response... even though I am the woman.. I think my H is seriously the more loving and kind one over myself.. I have hurt him more than he has hurt me over the years...where he walked in love ...with a  on his face where he wasn't getting his needs met (as much as he desired...and yeah it hurt him)... yet still he delighted in being all he could be for me and our family... more of this when we couldn't conceive...he didn't blame me, even then he understood ..and just wanted to be the best husband he could be..

He's been using this expression a lot lately ...saying he is a "half glass FULL guy"....have you ever heard this ...










We also watched a movie tonight called  Happy : Movies  ...it was a documentary to what makes us HAPPY... it gave stories of those all over the world, some living in horrible conditions, one woman's story of being ran over, her face destroyed...heartbreaking......so much to say here... but it gave this graph...the 40% is the very interesting part ....










Just want to relate what H said one time when I asked him specifically what he felt was the biggest hindrance to marital happiness / what causes so many problems...and his answer was ..."stubbornness ".... not being able to admit we are wrong, we are sorry ...expecting the other person to cave first...

Me and him do fight now & then...but we are both willing to admit our faults even in the midst of our fighting.. it's kinda weird I guess.. in doing this.. we both calm down...the air clears.... and we haggle it out till we both find our "peace" again...or some direction we need to take..


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

This article seems to address your questions. 

The Surprising Truth About What Makes Happy Couples Happy | Winifred M. Reilly


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> This is one of those 2 sided coins....one of the things YOU LOVE and praise very highly in your dear husband is his ability to STAND and not be moved -when you Emote on him....he doesn't leave your side...and he is not hurt by anything you say... you look upon this as being a Strong Man....like that strong Tower --- and you admire this..
> 
> But the downside to this is .. that he doesn't fully grasp the sensitive nature of women and why we can BE so easily hurt by words...
> 
> I often say on here.. I CAN HURT MY HUSBAND ....with words/ with my actions....but I don't see this as a bad thing or an unfavorable thing.. Because on that flip side....he is sensitive to my feminine emotions and can empathize with them...


You're right. Our weaknesses are our strengths pushed to an extreme. Dh is low affect, low emotion, pretty unflappable. And while I appreciate that, it can drive me crazy, too. 

And he does apologize, as do I, but it would be nice to be on the same page to start with. 

I don't think it will change, though. I think I will always be hypersensitive, and he will always not take words very seriously. Acceptance, acceptance . . .

He told some friends of ours once that there is a way I could hurt him. He said it would be if I were to stop being transparent with him. He said that would mean that I had lost faith in him, and that would hurt him a lot.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

loveadvice said:


> This article seems to address your questions.
> 
> The Surprising Truth About What Makes Happy Couples HappyÂ*|Â*Winifred M. Reilly


Very good article, love! Thank you! 

I certainly agree with #6: Certain conflicts are not going to be resolved, but must just be accepted.

Along the lines of what I said to SA, there are things about any couple that are not going to change. They are probably things that drew us to one another in the first place.

I grew up in a family of emotional people. People were always getting mad at what someone else said. So touchy! So stressful!

And if you suggested that people try to set aside their emotion, and look at reason . . . well, look out!

Lots of unresolved conflict in my family of origin.

Dh, because he does not get all emotional, is able to look at conflict more dispassionately. Not completely dispassionately, because he is a human being, and he does have some emotions. But he is head and shoulders above anyone in my own family as far as being able to be rational in the face of conflict. And I really appreciate that.

We are all compromising, I think, in our marriages, to some degree. I appreciate dh's lack of emotion in certain areas, and so I have to tolerate it in others. He appreciates my passion in certain areas, and so tolerates it in others.

What was SA saying again about the glass half full?


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## bkaydezz (Jul 9, 2012)

jld said:


> Have you ever felt disappointed, angry, frustrated, etc. with your spouse? While you felt that way, did you decide you were just going to love them anyway?
> 
> And did you get the feeling that sometimes they felt that way about you, too, but decided to be patient and love you, anyway?
> 
> ...


I battle with this. I cannot be passive to save my life! 
I wish my personality was different sometimes. Quiet, more of an introvert, looking at everything and taking it in slowly instead of being hasty, radical emotionally. My other half is very passive. I think that helps to even me out. If I was with someone that was like me, :rofl:, well, I don't even know! 

I guess this takes us to the warm and cold partnership.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

jld said:


> Have you ever felt disappointed, angry, frustrated, etc. with your spouse? While you felt that way, did you decide you were just going to love them anyway?


yes and yes.



jld said:


> And did you get the feeling that sometimes they felt that way about you, too, but decided to be patient and love you, anyway?


yes.


jld said:


> What is your experience of just making it work, even when you were not delighted? When have you just decided to be loving and kind to your spouse, even when maybe you did not _feel_ loving and kind? Did it soften his/her heart? Did it soften yours?


I don't know if this is BPD specific but I often waiver between feeling love and feeling numb. Which is actually a step up between I used to waiver between love and hate.  When I'm numb I push myself to go through the love motions. It works every time.DH comes through for me every single time. He knows when I'm numb and he waits for me to reach out to him so he can respond with kindness,warmth,and massive amounts of love. he never withholds kindness and softness toward me..his heart is always soft when it comes to me. Mine is always soft when it comes to him otherwise I wouldn't be able to pull through the numbness to go through the motions. It's like a dangling carrot for me.I know if I can push through my moment he will be there to make it worth my effort.



jld said:


> And if you have had times when you just decided that from your end, you were going to make it work, what made you take that approach?


yes. Being around DH made me learn that approach bc he never gives up on me even when I curl up inside myself and try to push him out. Looking at it now,those instances barely ever happen anymore. LOL I guess he has me well trained


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## cjl (Jan 24, 2014)

jld said:


> Have you ever felt disappointed, angry, frustrated, etc. with your spouse? While you felt that way, did you decide you were just going to love them anyway?
> *Yes and yes*
> 
> And did you get the feeling that sometimes they felt that way about you, too, but decided to be patient and love you, anyway?
> ...


*I would do it to avoid the conflict. I'm in the middle of something like this now. Do I go the passive route again, back down, not be stubborn or do I just stick to my guns, right or wrong. Everyone is faced with this.*


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

cjl said:


> *I would do it to avoid the conflict. I'm in the middle of something like this now. Do I go the passive route again, back down, not be stubborn or do I just stick to my guns, right or wrong. Everyone is faced with this.*


I would not back down if I were you. I think both partners need to be transparent.

If you do not really feel sorry, or do not feel that something is indeed your fault, I would not advise pretending it is. You can tell your partner you were sorry his/her feelings were hurt, without agreeing that what you said was wrong.

But if you do think, on further reflection, that you were indeed wrong, there is nothing passive or weak about admitting it or apologizing for it.

I tell dh I am sorry regularly. I don't think it makes me passive or weak. I think it is honest and caring. 

And I really appreciate getting an apology from him. It makes me feel respected and not just taken for granted.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

jld said:


> I tell dh I am sorry regularly. I don't think it makes me passive or weak. I think it is honest and caring.
> 
> And I really appreciate getting an apology from him. It makes me feel respected and not just taken for granted.


That's what decent people do.

I could never understand why so many people have such a hard time to admiring to mistakes/apologizing.

It almost seems like some kind of a sin in our society now days, weird.

It's completely asinine too, everyone makes mistakes and NO ONE is perfect. 

Nothing worse than a person that thinks their **** don't stink.....


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

jld said:


> I tell dh I am sorry regularly. I don't think it makes me passive or weak. I think it is honest and caring.
> 
> And I really appreciate getting an apology from him. It makes me feel respected and not just taken for granted.


Same here.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

DoF said:


> That's what decent people do.
> 
> I could never understand why so many people have such a hard time to admiring to mistakes/apologizing.
> 
> It almost seems like some kind of a sin in our society now days, weird.


I hear you. When I was first on TAM, I was reading the advice not to apologize. I was taken aback. 

With our spouses, we should be able to be naked in every way, just completely transparent. We should not have our pride on our minds. We should be able to feel safe being completely humble and giving. 

I think there is too much talking about being an alpha personality, and not enough about just respecting yourself and being authentic. And holding your own and your spouse's feet to the fire, and becoming better people for it.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

jld said:


> I think there is too much talking about being an alpha personality, and not enough about just respecting yourself and being authentic. And holding your own and your spouse's feet to the fire, and becoming better people for it.


Alpha crap is just completely stupid and useless......


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

I think human kind is WAY too complex and variable to be able to put handful of labels onto.

Also, it paints Alpha male as the most desirable of them all.....and frankly, I'm not exactly sure I would agree with that......I certainly wouldn't want to be an Alpha male (but ladies chasing my tail due to my looks and social status is rather bleh to me, but I'm no player, if I was, sure)

It's mostly based on looks and social status. These 2 play VERY little role when it comes to serious relationships/marriage.

Most people know that attraction is 1/100th if not LESS of the battle. If there is certain level of attraction between 2 people, that's it. MORE or EXTREME attraction doesn't really matter much. Social status, I find to be harmful more than good when it comes to serious relationships as well (more people, more problems, more drama etc).

NOW, if you take serious relationship out of the equation, I can agree with a lot of it (go nuts/whatever floats your boat/nothing wrong with it if that's what a person wants). 

Problem is, I have 0 desire or care for sex without feelings. It's completely useless/worthless TO ME.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Sure I've been disappointed and angry at my spouse. I'm confused by the love her anyway part though. I of course love her, but I could not overlook behavior that disappoints me and makes me angry. We would need to fix the issue that was making me feel this way. 

Otherwise I couldn't just get over it and love her anyway. I don't do resentment so it would probably come down to an ultimatum of some sort. I assume you're not talking about minor stuff here like forgetting to put the toothpaste cap on. Something major right? I don't sweat the small stuff.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

DoF said:


> That's what decent people do.
> 
> I could never understand why so many people have such a hard time to admiring to mistakes/apologizing.
> 
> ...


My H is funny...he sometimes apologizes to me ... when I wasn't even thinking the slightest thing about anything.... like once he was building this computer desk I ordered for our 3rd son.....ya know stuff made in china, a board chipped on him putting it together ....I walked into the room in that instance...he was swearing..and China was getting the brunt of it... I must have asked if he needed help & his response (can't remember now) ...it was angry ..had some "teeth" with it....

Yet I fully understood it... I didn't internalize that ... I'd be pi$$ed too.....I was just feeling bad for him... I probably said "Yeah, they don't make things like they used to anymore" ...told him supper was almost ready or something... after it was all put together...he walks out of there, wraps his arms around me ....and tells me he shouldn't have went off like that on me, I didn't deserve it.. 

He's really sweet like that.. I have even started to laugh at him (in a good way) when he has done this...saying "Really!!"...telling him I didn't think anything of it.. but appreciated him for caring so much.. .he just seems to go the extra measure sometimes.....he must have a sensitive conscience... well ...I know he does.. not going to complain about that!! 

I think with him...anytime he looses his temper ...he doesn't like himself very much, he doesn't like going off on the guys at work either (and it's rare)...though in those instances, there is no apology...they really had it coming!!! .....But if he went too far with me or the kids.. he is very honorable in making it right... he has been a tremendous example TO ME.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

SimplyAmorous said:


> My H is funny...he sometimes apologizes to me ... when I wasn't even thinking the slightest thing about anything.... like once he was building this computer desk I ordered for our 3rd son.....ya know stuff made in china, a board chipped on him putting it together ....I walked into the room in that instance...he was swearing..and China was getting the brunt of it... I must have asked if he needed help & his response (can't remember now) ...it was angry ..had some "teeth" with it....
> 
> Yet I fully understood it... I didn't internalize that ... I'd be pi$$ed too.....I was just feeling bad for him... I probably said "Yeah, they don't make things like they used to anymore" ...told him supper was almost ready or something... after it was all put together...he walks out of there, wraps his arms around me ....and tells me he shouldn't have went off like that on me, I didn't deserve it..


HAha, didn't one of our members came up with a word for this "Human near me syndrome" or something like that. Whatever happened to that thread anyways, I liked it!



SimplyAmorous said:


> He's really sweet like that.. I have even started to laugh at him (in a good way) when he has done this...saying "Really!!"...telling him I didn't think anything of it.. but appreciated him for caring so much.. .he just seems to go the extra measure sometimes.....he must have a sensitive conscience... well ...I know he does.. not going to complain about that!!
> 
> I think with him...anytime he looses his temper ...he doesn't like himself very much, he doesn't like going off on the guys at work either (and it's rare)...though in those instances, there is no apology...they really had it coming!!! .....But if he went too far with me or the kids.. he is very honorable in making it right... he has been a tremendous example TO ME.


Your husband is just like me. 

When anger kicks in or frustration, I HATE myself. I've been doing my best to apologize to my wife as well when I catch myself and she catches the brunt of my frustrations. That's not cool to do.

IMO, sign of a great man!!!


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

ReformedHubby said:


> Sure I've been disappointed and angry at my spouse. I'm confused by the love her anyway part though. I of course love her, but I could not overlook behavior that disappoints me and makes me angry. We would need to fix the issue that was making me feel this way.
> 
> Otherwise I couldn't just get over it and love her anyway. I don't do resentment so it would probably come down to an ultimatum of some sort. I assume you're not talking about minor stuff here like forgetting to put the toothpaste cap on. Something major right? I don't sweat the small stuff.


I'm sorry not to be clearer, RH. And I don't mean to ignore problems or anything like that. I really think it is best to be transparent and try to please each other as much as possible. It should be a mutually beneficial relationship.

When I wrote my original post, it was a lot longer. As I reread it, I thought it would offend a lot of people, and so I cut a lot out. But since I had spent a good half hour on the thing, I didn't want to delete it completely.

My original post was about my parents and grandparents, and probably a lot of other people's. I was thinking about the hard things they faced, and how they just pushed through. They didn't ask themselves if they were happy. They just had their responsibilities, and they accepted them. They made things work, because they did not really have any other choice.

But it was not as simple as that. There were a lot of unhealthy things going on, too. Problems were often just not talked about, not worked through. I can't really defend that, just because the marriages lasted a long time. 

The great thing about being married today is that there is the chance to have a really healthy, really satisfying marriage. But even when the partners are highly compatible, there will be some differences that have to be accepted. 

And maybe, sometimes, making an effort to be kind and loving can result in actually feeling kind and loving. And maybe it elicits those same feelings in the partner. It all turns out good, however it started.

Sorry to be so long-winded, and sorry I was not clearer earlier. Actually, I probably should have just deleted the whole post, no matter how much time I spent thinking about it. Humans are not going back in time. Just making it work is not a popular idea, and for some very justifiable reasons.


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## lucyloo (Dec 3, 2013)

nuclearnightmare said:


> You seem to be describing emotional abuse. Imagine for each session of name calling he, instead, hit you 3 or 4 times.....hard. would you imagine that to be worse? It wouldn't be. Each instance of verbal/emotional abuse during your marriage has done damage to your self esteem, your self confidence. Over time the damage is cumulative, and serious. In my mind more serious than physical bruises, bleeding,broken bones etc.
> 
> Children?


No we don't have children.


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## I'll make tea (Oct 11, 2013)

Did you talk to your husband about your feelings, jld?

I think "just making it work" might not be to helathy if you push it too an extreme... because what would be better is both partners together finding a soluation for the problem (what ever it might be).

While sometimes it might be goog to suck it up (if you dislike a behaviour of the spouse which he just cannot snatch out off) in other cases you can work towards a situation you both are happier with.

What is it you feel unhappy about?


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## I'll make tea (Oct 11, 2013)

Actually... as you probably know... in my culture we do not divorce as easily as Americans do and we do not have that many children out of wedlock. Middle class women actually do not have children out of wedlock at all. That is looked down on...

and I think that this is a good thing because both partners know they have to work on the relationship / family and not throw it away.

...but one partner just sucking it up and the other doing as he pleases would not be healthy.


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## I'll make tea (Oct 11, 2013)

jld said:


> And maybe, sometimes, making an effort to be kind and loving can result in actually feeling kind and loving. And maybe it elicits those same feelings in the partner. It all turns out good, however it started.


Being kind and loving is much easier if one understand why the spouse does something and that is why communication is needed.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I'll make tea said:


> Did you talk to your husband about your feelings, jld?
> 
> I think "just making it work" might not be to helathy if you push it too an extreme... because what would be better is both partners together finding a soluation for the problem (what ever it might be).
> 
> ...


You'll laugh if I tell you. 

He made a post the other day saying that the first summer we lived together, he was distressed to see me watching Court TV every day. There was a famous trial on that summer, and I was intrigued. He thought I should get a job or do volunteer work, and I was sitting home watching that trial every day.

I didn't remember it that way. I remember setting up housekeeping the first couple weeks of June (we had just moved in together the beginning of June) and sending out resumes and waiting for interviews the end of June. 

I got an interview, and a job, the beginning of July, due to start the end of August (I was a teacher). I had enough money to cover my end of our expenses (I had saved from the previous job), so I did not see the point of looking for a summer job. And I was really taken with that trial, so volunteer work did not seem appealing, either.

Dh has been in Europe the past two weeks, and we have not been able to talk much, due to all the meetings he has been in. So after he posted, he went to bed. I was still mad about the post, because I felt it was painting a picture of me as a TV addict, which was untrue. 

I am not a TV addict; I am a TAM addict. Respectable difference. 

At any rate, we discussed it when he woke up (nearly midnight for me) and he told me he would pull the post. He also said that when we actually talked about what happened that summer, he thought my memory was more accurate than his. And he reminded me that in his post, he had said that his worries were unfounded. I watched more TV that summer of 1993 than I have in the 21 years since.

So what was I unhappy about? My pride was bruised. 

But the thread was more about just thinking about what my parents and grandparents lived, and how they just accepted it. My post above to RH explains that. 

And I understand that life just is not like that anymore. And for some very good reasons.

I just saw your last post. Are you sure it is not common in your culture to have children out of wedlock? It is in France. Lots of people just live together and have children. I believe marriage rates have gone down quite a bit.


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## I'll make tea (Oct 11, 2013)

Thanks for explaining. What kind of post was it your husband wrote? I would have been unhappy about that kind of post too... but now you have talked about it, you are not unhappy anymore, are you?

Re: having children out of wedlock: overall the out-of-wedlock rate is lower than in France, the US or UK. It depends *very* much on your social class... and I really mean *very* as many of the poor women I know has at least one child out of wedlock but it is rare in the lower middle class and even rarer in the traditional upper middle class where some still will say it is a "bastard". That being even more true when people are religious or from certain regions known for the conservative morals. According to what you say that seems to be different in France?

To my mind it the middle class, who is right about that... because it is good for a child to grow up in a home with both parents... and often people who leave their childs father are not happier with their next boyfriend... or the one after that... or the next.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Well, the people I would be thinking of would be middle class, college-educated, stable partnerships, but not married.

I will ask dh to look at your post, though. Maybe I am not seeing it correctly.

Dh and I were talking recently about all the problems in our families, but about how we think we benefitted from having our parents stay together. Financially it was better, for sure. 

And about my post . . . No, I am not upset anymore. I am actually embarrassed that I was so prideful about it. Being branded a TV addict, even if he later did say that was not accurate, just seemed unfair and untrue. 

Dh is coming home today. I think we will talk some more about that first summer together, and how much things have changed since. 

Yesterday was the anniversary of our first becoming a couple. Tomorrow is the anniversary of the day I just sat down and told him every bad thing I could think of about myself and my family, just anything I thought might make him change his mind about being in a relationship with me. He seemed so serious about me, and I did not want to deceive him in any way. If there was anything about me he could not accept, better to end it right away, I thought.

Funny, all these dates I have in mind, like when we met, when he told me he loved me, when we moved in together . . . I'm a romantic at heart, I guess.


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## I'll make tea (Oct 11, 2013)

*lol* and today it is the anniversary of the end of WW2. You meeting him, WW2, you telling him everything bad about you. All within three days 

Great he is coming home today. The both of you will have lots of fun!


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I'll make tea said:


> *lol* and today it is the anniversary of the end of WW2. You meeting him, WW2, you telling him everything bad about you. All within three days
> 
> Great he is coming home today. The both of you will have lots of fun!


Yes, V-E Day! I was just thinking about that this morning. 

It is a holiday in France. I bet it is a holiday in your country, too. Hope you are enjoying it!


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

jld said:


> I'm sorry not to be clearer, RH. And I don't mean to ignore problems or anything like that. I really think it is best to be transparent and try to please each other as much as possible. It should be a mutually beneficial relationship.
> 
> When I wrote my original post, it was a lot longer. As I reread it, I thought it would offend a lot of people, and so I cut a lot out. But since I had spent a good half hour on the thing, I didn't want to delete it completely.
> 
> ...


You should have kept the post as it was. Sounds like a positive message to me. Don't worry so much about what people think. Be you!!!!


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## I'll make tea (Oct 11, 2013)

ReformedHubby said:


> You should have kept the post as it was. Sounds like a positive message to me. Don't worry so much about what people think. Be you!!!!


I agree... and I do not think everybody was unhappy back then... but I also do not think anybody sucked it up back then... I think people have always been very, very different.

Of course people life in different conditions, but their emotions may be similiar.
I made a senior citizen friend and don't feel she is that much different from me.

OTOH I sometimes feel I am very different from some of my former friends as I am married with a kid and they are not yet... which means we are living in different worlds. In a way. Fundamental life events like marriage change a person.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

ReformedHubby said:


> You should have kept the post as it was. Sounds like a positive message to me. Don't worry so much about what people think. Be you!!!!


Thanks for the confidence booster, RH. I will work on that.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I'll make tea said:


> OTOH I sometimes feel I am very different from some of my former friends as I am married with a kid and they are not yet... which means we are living in different worlds. In a way. Fundamental life events like marriage change a person.


I think having children is a _huge_ change in a person's life.

Most of us can't really understand it until we are there.


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## I'll make tea (Oct 11, 2013)

Totally agree. 

As for me... a lot of stress but also a lot of joy... and feeling part of something bigger than myself... feeling "called upon" (sounds silly, doesn't, it?)... no I did not turn into a religious fanatic... but I feel like a very big job has been given to me by being a wife and mother... the most important job of my life so far ... sounds crazy, eh?

How do you feel about being a mother?


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## I'll make tea (Oct 11, 2013)

By the way, I have a social spot thread about being a parent. Nobody answers it, booohoo!


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I'll check it out!

It is the most important part of my life. It is not very feminist to say that, I guess, but it is the truth. Loving and pleasing my husband and my children is the thing I most want to do. 

When I am about to die, that is the thing that I am sure I will be thinking about most: Did I pour love into them?


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## I'll make tea (Oct 11, 2013)

My husband says being a father is VERY important for him. I guess he is a feminist too *grin* 

I wonder how other men feel about it.


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## skype (Sep 25, 2013)

I think that real love requires us to "make it work." We are all deeply flawed human beings, and we have to forgive our spouse's small transgressions against us, as we expect them to overlook our orneriness and occasional bouts of selfishness and pride.

When the honeymoon period wears off and we see our spouse without the fog of new love, warts and all, we have a decision to make. Are we going to keep loving them, or are we going to let our disappointment in the discovery of their flaws derail our love for them?

This is what mature love is. Seeing the whole person and still loving them. Because that is what we want them to do for us. Get beyond the Disney idea of romantic love with no power struggles, disappointments, or hurts. Sticking it out together because what they bring to your life surpasses what you could be as a single person.

Of course this presumes that you have chosen someone who is compatible with you, someone who is not selfish, and wants the best for you.


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