# Wife freaks at polygraph



## higgsb

So I told my wife I've decided after all to go to Costa Rica and she was furious. She didn't mention abortion but immediately launched into a discussion about divorce. I said I really needed to get paternity tests done on the new baby and our second daughter. She scoffed at that but just wanted to make sure I'd be paying for it.

Then we got to distribution of assets. Her idea was that since there are 5 of us, I should get 1/5 and she the rest. I said no way: 50/50 and that's how it ended. 

I've always had a problem with the timeline of her affair - it just sounds like a load of crap and recently I've been wondering if every time I was overseas, she's been having affairs so I said: "If you take and pass a polygraph to confirm your timeline and to confirm this has been your only affair, I'll agree to 1/5 for me and 4/5 for you."

She freaked at that and said no way and that she wouldn't be humiliated by taking a polygraph. She got angry and shut that idea down with "end of discussion." She refuses to take a polygraph.

How much should I be reading into that?
Am I wrong to assume that her reaction basically confirms either her timeline is a load of crap or she has had multiple affairs?


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## richardsharpe

Good evening
Do I understand correctly that you are splitting assets because you are divorcing? If so, your attorney should advise you. Unless polygraph tests are admissible in divorce court, does it matter if she takes it?


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## Palodyne

You basically offered her a 80% cut of the marital assets if she passed a poly, she freaked out and said no way. So, yes, it does appear to be a confirmation that she has been lying to you.


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## aine

Sounds like she has something to hide.
If she is as mercenary as you indicated in an earlier thread, then if she knew she would pass the polygraph, wouldn't she jump at the chance?

Alternatively, she may be so angry with you she will fight you every step of the way, including stonewalling
OR
You have really hurt her with your functionalist approach to all of this, based on your prior thread you too have your own issues and do not come across as very loving or supportive.

He affair was totally wrong, but you basically abandoned her and family while you went and worked elsewhere.
All I can say is that is that it seems you are in for a long hard ride. Good luck.


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## MattMatt

This depends on a number of factors.

Have you hurt your wife so much that she will say 'no' to everything you suggest?

Is she a very private person?

Had she got a lot to hide?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alexm

I'd be leery of someone who wouldn't jump at a chance to prove themselves.

That said, I can also see how taking a polygraph (regardless of results) would be humiliating.

However, if this marriage is truly over (especially in her mind), then I can also see why she has no interest in bothering to prove something to you (or get busted, I suppose).

Offering her a larger split of the equity based on her passing a test doesn't necessarily mean she'll jump at that, either, even if she's "innocent". A lot of people would take that as having to jump through hoops (in this case for $$) or otherwise wh0ring ones self out for it.

What I find more disconcerting is that she's asking for 80%, particularly if she's the one most at fault for this divorce (infidelity). My ex wife also tried to get far more than she was entitled to, and she was the one who was at 100% fault for our divorce (also infidelity). And we had no kids, so it was entirely for her gain.


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## Satya

Simple. Those with nothing to hide, hide nothing. 

Don't make her response more complex than it is.


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## higgsb

I googled wife refuses to take a polygraph and I got this TAM thread:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/50545-polygraph-take-not-take-2.html

The bottom line is that there is no certainty in anything except (maybe) paternity tests. Even if she passed, I'm not sure I'd believe the results. Her reaction to me asking her to take a polygraph was possibly telling but doesn't prove anything. The nature of affairs and how they tend to follow definite stages indicates she's lying about the timeline but maybe her affair was a statistical outlier. I'll never know the whole truth. I just blindly stumbled upon some texts.


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## richardsharpe

Good evening
I would refuse any non court-ordered polygraph.


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## chillymorn

paternity test all children.


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## Rookie4

If you are getting a divorce, what difference does it make HOW many guys she screwed? The only relevant pieces of info you need are paternity tests. To determine child support. Everything else is just unnecessary drama.


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## bandit.45

aine said:


> Sounds like she has something to hide.
> If she is as mercenary as you indicated in an earlier thread, then if she knew she would pass the polygraph, wouldn't she jump at the chance?
> 
> Alternatively, she may be so angry with you she will fight you every step of the way, including stonewalling
> OR
> You have really hurt her with your functionalist approach to all of this, based on your prior thread you too have your own issues and do not come across as very loving or supportive.
> 
> *He affair was totally wrong, but you basically abandoned her and family while you went and worked elsewhere.*
> All I can say is that is that it seems you are in for a long hard ride. Good luck.



I don't understand your take on this. 

Many, many people all over the world are forced by our modern economy to work in countries far away from their spouses and children. 

Are you saying that military personnel on deployment are abandoning their families? Are you saying that sailors and cruise-line workers are abandoning their families to make money to support them? Are you saying that offshore oil workers abandoning their families to stay on an oil rig for a month at a time? 

Just because he is a teacher he is somehow not given the same consideration as other itinerant workers? I don't see any difference at all. Your argument and claims that he abandoned his wife and kids don't hold any water. 

His wife should have appreciated his sacrifice and did what she could to hold down the home front when he was gone...instead of throwing her legs up for every handsome prick that came along. His wife is a promiscuous, loose woman. That is the cold truth.


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## jb02157

You shouldn't have made this such a high stakes offer. What if by chance she was able to pass the poly? Her refusal of this offer
even shows moreso that she definitely has had multiple affairs, you can be quite sure of this.


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## donny64

She's lying. Look at it this way:

Right now you are divorcing. No reconcile, right?

You told her she now gets 1/2.

You told her if she takes poly and passes poly, she gets 4/5.

She has NOTHING TO LOSE at this point by taking and passing (or failing) a poly, and much to gain. (That is an awful lot for you to lose, and her to gain however, should she pass a poly in error. DO NOT offer her that in any kind of contract or official negotiation. She could lie, pass a poly, you'd be screwed, and she'd be rewarded for being a cheating head case who wrongfully passed a poly).

Having said that, I also put zero stock into a poly (based on a decent amount of past experience both as an observer, as a poly subject, and due to discussions with poly examiners I worked with). I would never base a marital decision on the outcome of a poly. If it comes down to that, I am just done.

But, most honest people will jump at a chance to take a poly. Most guilty people will run from the poly. While that may give an indication of truth or deception, it is not always the case.

On my dday, my W asked offered a poly about an hour into the confrontation. And a couple times since. Beyond the first 30 minutes or so, I've seen NOTHING to indicate she has been untruthful or trickle truthed me. All of that put together, along with my evidence gathering before and after, leads me to the almost certainty she's being 100% forthcoming a this point. 

Now, if I found more suspicions of lies, and she refused one if offered, then we'd be in a much different place right now.

I personally would never take a poly again unless I had nothing to lose by doing so. 

The poly is a TOOL to be used to ASSIST in getting to the truth, but cannot be relied upon alone to tell you if you are getting the truth. As an example: Quite a few here have gotten parking lot confessions at the examiners office right before heading up for the poly. That is proper use of a polygraph...as a tool or threat to elicit a confession.


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## rrrbbbttt

Paternity test your children!


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## Marduk

It really doesn't matter what your opinion of the distribution of assets should be, or hers, either.

The law has that all sorted out, so talk to your lawyer about that.


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## WorkingWife

americansteve said:


> I googled wife refuses to take a polygraph and I got this TAM thread:
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/50545-polygraph-take-not-take-2.html
> 
> The bottom line is that there is no certainty in anything except (maybe) paternity tests. Even if she passed, I'm not sure I'd believe the results. Her reaction to me asking her to take a polygraph was possibly telling but doesn't prove anything. The nature of affairs and how they tend to follow definite stages indicates she's lying about the timeline but maybe her affair was a statistical outlier. I'll never know the whole truth. I just blindly stumbled upon some texts.


No, you will never know the truth.

But her reaction does indicate that she is lying. Sure, she may have plenty of reasons to not want to take a polygraph, but if she's telling the truth about her time line, and it means more money, I don't think any of those reasons are good enough. She's already humiliated you and herself with an affair. And of course she's lying about the time line.

I would say her reaction to taking the polygraph says more than anything the actual polygraph would say. 

She had to lie to you to have an affair. Of course she's willing to lie about the time line to try to make herself look less bad. I definitely would not give her one penny more than 50/50 under any circumstances unless a court orders it.


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## workindad

OP- do not make her any additional offers related to the division of assets.

See a lawyer and get the ball rolling. Let the lawyer advise you on offers related to the division of assets.

At this point in time- I would not pay for a polygraph as you have your answer.

I would pay for 
1 Lawyer
2 Counselor
3 Paternity test
4 STD tests.


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## Mclane

americansteve said:


> How much should I be reading into that?
> Am I wrong to assume that her reaction basically confirms either her timeline is a load of crap or she has had multiple affairs?


Nope you're not wrong. 

Now that you have sufficient evidence that she's had multiple affairs and/or continues about other details, what are you going to do about it?

Right now she holds all the cards, she cheated and she's the one playing the divorce card. Don't you think it's time to turn this thing around?


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## LosingHim

If I knew 100% that a poly could tell my husband the absolute truth without a speck of doubt, I’d strap myself to the chair and do it myself. But, I’m also wary of polygraphs. There’s a reason they aren’t admissible in court. If I am understanding correctly, a poly reads whether or not you are lying by increased heart rate, blood pressure, etc. I am fearful that I wouldn’t pass a poly asking if the sky was blue and I stated yes – strictly due to the fact that I have sometimes crippling anxiety. I can be asked a pretty standard question at times and completely freak out. 

For instance, I run a non profit organization that gives free homecoming and prom dresses to girls who can’t afford them. A few weeks ago we were having a meeting at work and one of upper management asked if anyone knew of any non profits looking for donations that could be made from our parent company. My boss mentioned my non-profit. I cannot explain the WHY to you, because that is anxiety, but my heart started racing, my palms got sweaty, I got lightheaded. I felt like you do when you narrowly miss being in a car accident. That surge of anxiety and adrenaline. And that was AFTER 3mg of valium that I take every day. 

I think I would be so nervous about falsely failing the poly that I would work myself into a state of panic so great I wouldn’t be able to even answer the BASELINE questions without freaking out. 

So personally, I just don’t trust them. I don’t think I have the full story from my husband, but I doubt I’d ever suggest a poly. I just do not trust them enough.

But what I WOULD trust is the fact that she freaked out over it. As much as I really don’t LIKE them, if he wanted one – we could discuss it. But we have several police officer friends – some of whom are detectives. I’d been making sure he discussed with them at length how accurate they actually ARE.


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## sidney2718

donny64 said:


> She's lying. Look at it this way:
> 
> Right now you are divorcing. No reconcile, right?
> 
> You told her she now gets 1/2.
> 
> You told her if she takes poly and passes poly, she gets 4/5.
> 
> She has NOTHING TO LOSE at this point by taking and passing (or failing) a poly, and much to gain. (That is an awful lot for you to lose, and her to gain however, should she pass a poly in error. DO NOT offer her that in any kind of contract or official negotiation. She could lie, pass a poly, you'd be screwed, and she'd be rewarded for being a cheating head case who wrongfully passed a poly).
> 
> Having said that, I also put zero stock into a poly (based on a decent amount of past experience both as an observer, as a poly subject, and due to discussions with poly examiners I worked with). I would never base a marital decision on the outcome of a poly. If it comes down to that, I am just done.
> 
> But, most honest people will jump at a chance to take a poly. Most guilty people will run from the poly. While that may give an indication of truth or deception, it is not always the case.
> 
> On my dday, my W asked offered a poly about an hour into the confrontation. And a couple times since. Beyond the first 30 minutes or so, I've seen NOTHING to indicate she has been untruthful or trickle truthed me. All of that put together, along with my evidence gathering before and after, leads me to the almost certainty she's being 100% forthcoming a this point.
> 
> Now, if I found more suspicions of lies, and she refused one if offered, then we'd be in a much different place right now.
> 
> I personally would never take a poly again unless I had nothing to lose by doing so.
> 
> The poly is a TOOL to be used to ASSIST in getting to the truth, but cannot be relied upon alone to tell you if you are getting the truth. As an example: Quite a few here have gotten parking lot confessions at the examiners office right before heading up for the poly. That is proper use of a polygraph...as a tool or threat to elicit a confession.


Thank you for posting this. Many here recommend polygraphs as if they were the magical truth elixir. It isn't and we here should NOT be recommending them.


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## Mclane

sidney2718 said:


> Thank you for posting this. Many here recommend polygraphs as if they were the magical truth elixir. It isn't and we here should NOT be recommending them.


From what I read here most of the experienced posters who recommend polys are fully aware of their limitations and recommend them as a coercive tool to illicit what can be called a "parking lot confession".

Despite their fallibility the threat of a poly can be immeasurably useful in obtaining the truth, just as it appears to be to the Op on this thread.


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## ThePheonix

This cat travels around having a good time teaching at exotic places while leaving his old lady back at the hut doing all the fun stuff like cleaning, cooking, and raising kids by her lonesome. If my wife left me with all the home responsibilities while she perennially sailed off for new and exciting adventures she'd likely discover I'd been spending time with about three of four of the neighborhood chicks. (pretending they were her of course)
Oh wait. I forgot. He doing this offshore teaching because he wants to "give back" to these underprivileged kids. I know that's the reason. His wife and kids should understand his willingness to sacrifice them for the "greater good". What would probably shock everyone, except me, is her answer to a polygraph question, "were you glad when the SOB boarded the plane?" :wink2: Refusal of the polygraph may be her way of getting him to ride off into the sunset so she can find someone who actually gives a shyt about his family.


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## Maxo

marduk said:


> It really doesn't matter what your opinion of the distribution of assets should be, or hers, either.
> 
> The law has that all sorted out, so talk to your lawyer about that.


Incorrect. He can choose to divide things in a less favorable manner for himself.


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## Maxo

ThePheonix said:


> This cat travels around having a good time teaching at exotic places while leaving his old lady back at the hut doing all the fun stuff like cleaning, cooking, and raising kids by her lonesome. If my wife left me with all the home responsibilities while she perennially sailed off for new and exciting adventures she'd likely discover I'd been spending time with about three of four of the neighborhood chicks. (pretending they were her of course)
> Oh wait. I forgot. He doing this offshore teaching because he wants to "give back" to these underprivileged kids. I know that's the reasvon. His wife and kids should understand his willingness to sacrifice them for the "greater good". What would probably shock everyone, except me, is her answer to a polygraph question, "were you glad when the SOB boarded the plane?" :wink2: Refusal of the polygraph may be her way of getting him to ride off into the sunset so she can find someone who actually gives a shyt about his family.


She could accomplish this in a less complicated and more forthright manner by simply filing.


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## Mclane

Maxo said:


> Incorrect. He can choose to divide things in a less favorable manner for himself.


Good point.

His theoretical suggested distribution which favors her, trumps the opinion of the court.

Of course this is irrelevant since his wife obviously has no intention of taking nor passing the polygraph.

And he probably knows this which is why he made such a generous offer he'll never have to deliver.


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## Maxo

Mclane said:


> From what I read here most of the experienced posters who recommend polys are fully aware of their limitations and recommend them as a coercive tool to illicit what can be called a "parking lot confession".
> 
> Despite their fallibility the threat of a poly can be immeasurably useful in obtaining the truth, just as it appears to be to the Op on this thread.


Agreed. I would have thought this obvious. Guess sid missed it.


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## Maxo

Mclane said:


> Good point.
> 
> His theoretical suggested distribution which favors her, trumps the opinion of the court.
> 
> Of course this is irrelevant since his wife obviously has no intention of taking nor passing the polygraph.
> 
> And he probably knows this which is why he made such a generous offer he'll never have to deliver.


He needs to retract the offer,as,theoretically, it could be enforceable if she performs. Statute of frauds may protect him,but never reduce the offer to writing.


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## Mclane

Maxo said:


> He needs to retract the offer,as,theoretically, it could be enforceable if she performs. Statute of frauds may protect him,but never reduce the offer to writing.


Unless she was recording the conversation + one party recording is legal in his state, then he's got nothing to worry about there.

The bigger issue is why he's willing to reward her to such an extent for having only *one* affair.


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## Maxo

Theoretically,this is an oral offer for a contract which could be enforceable,if she can verify the offer and performs.
I say it could be enforceable if she performs as he would have to perjure himself to deny making the offer.
It may involve real estate or be over the dollar amount for enforceability pera Statute of Frauds,but those vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.


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## ThePheonix

Maxo said:


> She could accomplish this in a less complicated and more forthright manner by simply filing.


Sure she could. But perhaps she feels it would keep her hand cleaner if he filed and it would be easier to simply follow his lead. In the meantime he's far away and she can pretty much do what she wants.


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## Mclane

Maxo said:


> Theoretically,this is an oral offer for a contract which could be enforceable,if she can verify the offer and performs.
> I say it could be enforceable if she performs as he would have to perjure himself to deny making the offer.
> It may involve real estate or be over the dollar amount for enforceability pera Statute of Frauds,but those vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.


If I was him I'd risk a perjury charge, and say I was just being facetious/sarcastic/whatever. I wouldn't expect a court to hold him to such a ridiculous offer that could easily be explained away as said in anger.


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## Maxo

Mclane said:


> If I was him I'd risk a perjury charge, and say I was just being facetious/sarcastic/whatever. I wouldn't expect a court to hold him to such a ridiculous offer that could easily be explained away as said in anger.


I tend to agree re enforceability. Clearly,however,one cannot perjure oneself without damage to one's integrity.


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## Maxo

ThePheonix said:


> Sure she could. But perhaps she feels it would keep her hand cleaner if he filed and it would be easier to simply follow his lead. In the meantime he's far away and she can pretty much do what she wants.


Sure,she coud do that. But,again,the honest thing to do would be a straightforward

Filing.


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## Mclane

Maxo said:


> Clearly,however,one cannot perjure oneself without damage to one's integrity.


I could.

During my divorce, after fielding months.. strike that.. years of my exwife's lies and false accusations and character assassinations, I started hitting back with lies and character assassinations of my own, in legal affidavits and motions and depositions and whatever. 

I can still sleep well at night knowing my integrity is as intact as it was the day I was born.


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## Maxo

Mclane said:


> I could.
> 
> During my divorce, after fielding months.. strike that.. years of my exwife's lies and false accusations and character assassinations, I started hitting back with lies and character assassinations of my own, in legal affidavits and motions and depositions and whatever.
> 
> I can still sleep well at night knowing my integrity is as intact as it was the day I was born.


I understand,but,if you perjured youself,your integrity was damaged,IMO.


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## Mclane

Maxo said:


> I understand,but,if you perjured youself,your integrity was damaged,IMO.


I won't sleep tonight.


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## Maxo

Mclane said:


> I won't sleep tonight.


My opinion does not carry much weight. So,I would ignore me.


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## Marduk

Maxo said:


> Incorrect. He can choose to divide things in a less favorable manner for himself.


True. 

But I wish he wouldn't.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45

ThePheonix said:


> This cat travels around having a good time teaching at exotic places while leaving his old lady back at the hut doing all the fun stuff like cleaning, cooking, and raising kids by her lonesome. If my wife left me with all the home responsibilities while she perennially sailed off for new and exciting adventures she'd likely discover I'd been spending time with about three of four of the neighborhood chicks. (pretending they were her of course)
> Oh wait. I forgot. He doing this offshore teaching because he wants to "give back" to these underprivileged kids. I know that's the reason. His wife and kids should understand his willingness to sacrifice them for the "greater good". What would probably shock everyone, except me, is her answer to a polygraph question, "were you glad when the SOB boarded the plane?" :wink2: Refusal of the polygraph may be her way of getting him to ride off into the sunset so she can find someone who actually gives a shyt about his family.


Granted.

It still doesn't excuse her acting like a Thai hooker. She should have divorced him if she couldn't hack it.


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## TaDor

What about a bangkock hooker? Aren't they cheaper?


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## Sports Fan

If she was innocent she would of jumped at the chance to be awarded 80% of the split. 

However her flat out refusal to take a polygraph is very telling of her guilty nature.


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## tom67

Palodyne said:


> You basically offered her a 80% cut of the marital assets if she passed a poly, she freaked out and said no way. So, yes, it does appear to be a confirmation that she has been lying to you.


Facepalm :frown2:


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## ThePheonix

TaDor said:


> What about a bangkock hooker? Aren't they cheaper?


What about just being somebody's married girlfriend whose "husband" puts his job above the her and the family needs. Its a win/win. He gets his dream job. She gets someone to spend quality time with and satisfy her needs. He's a pretend father and husband and she's a pretend wife.



Sports Fan said:


> If she was innocent she would of jumped at the chance to be awarded 80% of the split.


Come on. Everybody knows he's full of crap with that "deal" and probably told her that on April 1.


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## higgsb

It's been tense here since I let her know I'm going to Costa Rica. She now sleeps in my daughters room so its going to be a long 3 months. I should have waited another month at least before telling her. I miss the physical contact. She has a perfect 4-months pregnant belly. I didn't help things any this morning before she left for work. I got up early just to remind her that I WOULD be paternity testing all our children and she just said "go ahead."

Thanks for all the opinions on her refusing to take the poly. It definitely confirms for me that her timeline is bull**** but I always knew it was. I tried to show her the replies I got here so she knows that the overwhelming consensus is that refusing to take the poly means she's lying about something and she didn't want to hear it and said I should let everyone know I'm an a$$hole and abused her and marrying me was the worst mistake of her life.

As far as my offer, it was genuine but bear in mind, all our assets are tied up in our house and that's about it. We aren't talking about a fortune. Its besides the point though because she just flat out refuses to be polygraphed. She also hasn't mentioned divorce anymore. My guess is that talking about divorce leads to a discussion on distribution of assets, which leads back to my polygraph offer.

Anyway, not a happy household at the moment.

Maybe tonight after work I'll ask her again to come with me to CR; she'll say no way but it might lighten the atmosphere.


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## Rookie4

So, OP, have you or your wife, decided on divorce or not? A polygraph has very little relevance , if either one of you have decided to exit the marriage. Paternity tests are far more important, in a situation such as this. It doesn't matter, legally whether she agrees to a poly or not, so why should she? You have two issues here. 1. Polygraphs are not admissible and 2. Adultery is not grounds for divorce in most states (I can't think of any, at the moment). So, the paternity test is your best bet for legal and financial reasons. As far as her timeline goes.....who cares? You already know she cheated, right?


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## Rookie4

Think of it this way. If she doesn't take a poly, then her reputation is intact and she doesn't have to confirm or deny anything. Legally , she will look good. She agrees to paternity tests.....why?.. because she already knows that you are the father, possibly because she and her AP used precautions. Again, she comes off looking good. So, in any kind of divorce hearing, she looks like a pregnant version of Mother Theresa, how can she go wrong?


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## higgsb

@Rookie4


> So, OP, have you or your wife, decided on divorce or not? A polygraph has very little relevance , if either one of you have decided to exit the marriage. Paternity tests are far more important, in a situation such as this. It doesn't matter, legally whether she agrees to a poly or not, so why should she? You have two issues here. 1. Polygraphs are not admissible and 2. Adultery is not grounds for divorce in most states (I can't think of any, at the moment). So, the paternity test is your best bet for legal and financial reasons. As far as her timeline goes.....who cares? You already know she cheated, right?


She mentioned divorce; I don't know if I want to divorce or not. I think I'd rather wait and see how things play out at least until January, 2017. That would give me a full semester working in CR and by then I'll know if it's really the paradise I hear it is and if I'm a good fit for that school. It wouldn't be the first time I went to a good school in a great place only to find it wasn't really for me. I'd rather wait on divorce and since I mentioned the poly, she hasn't brought it up again. But you are correct on all counts: Indiana is a no fault state, the polygraph is irrelevant and the paternity test is really what matters. I just would love to get a few questions answered.



> She agrees to paternity tests.....why?.. because she already knows that you are the father, possibly because she and her AP used precautions.


NO! Her and the AP DID NOT take precautions, had unprotected sex and even had a pregnancy scare. With me, she insisted on condoms but unprotected sex with the AP was just fine. That's why after I discovered the affair, I insisted on not using condoms. I know that was stupid, I wish I can undo that, but it is the truth. I just couldn't get over the fact that she had unprotected sex with her AP but insist that her husband use condoms. But yes, insisting that we have unprotected sex has really messed things up and that's 100% on me; much as I love babies, I wish she hadn't gotten pregnant.

BTW: unprotected sex wasn't the only thing she did with her AP that she wouldn't do with me!


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## lifeistooshort

You seriously take off on your wife and family for a semester at a time? 

How exactly do you think you're going to have a marriage like that? 

If that's the life you want you should probably stay single.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## higgsb

> You seriously take off on your wife and family for a semester at a time?


It's not that simple. We met and married in China and she knew the deal. Initially, she was going to be a Chinese teacher and we would be a teaching couple. In the world of International Teaching, teaching couples get preference because the school doesn't need to duplicate certain benefits, like housing. She changed her mind and out of the blue decides that she wants to be a nurse. Well good for her but I'm not giving up a career because she couldn't take travelling anymore. 

Maybe she should have stayed single.

Also it's a 2 year contract. I'm just saying, I want to give it a semester before I start thinking about divorce.


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## lifeistooshort

americansteve said:


> It's not that simple. We met and married in China and she knew the deal. Initially, she was going to be a Chinese teacher and we would be a teaching couple. In the world of International Teaching, teaching couples get preference because the school doesn't need to duplicate certain benefits, like housing. She changed her mind and out of the blue decides that she wants to be a nurse. Well good for her but I'm not giving up a career because she couldn't take travelling anymore.
> 
> Maybe she should have stayed single.


People do change their minds, and the life you're talking about may not even be practical once you have kids.

Most people are not going to want to travel like that long term. 

Divorce her and stay singe, then you can run around the world. 

Why would she stay single? She wants to settle down, plenty of men will want in on that. 

There might come a day where you get tired and don't want to travel so much. Is that not allowed? 

You guys are no longer a good match, and it's clear you prioritize you work over your family. That's fine, it's your right to do that. 

With that life you're going to have a much harder time than her keeping a long term relationship.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## higgsb

> People do change their minds, and the life you're talking about may not even be practical once you have kids.


People also stick to a plan. This argument you are making about people changing their minds, I've heard it several times and it leads right to a non sequitur: it does not follow that because she changed her mind, then I should stop teaching overseas. As far as kids go: every school I have ever taught at, and I've taught at many, there were kids of teachers at that school. Its not only practical, its an incredible experience for the kids. 



> Why would she stay single? She wants to settle down, plenty of men will want in on that.


I'm not sure that I want "plenty of men" sniffing around my wife. I think I'd rather wait on divorce; I'm not sure it's the best option for me right now.



> You guys are no longer a good match, and it's clear you prioritize you work over your family.


True but I'd still like to wait a bit before I jump into divorce.


----------



## lifeistooshort

americansteve said:


> People also stick to a plan. This argument you are making about people changing their minds, I've heard it several times and it leads right to a non sequitur: it does not follow that because she changed her mind, then I should stop teaching overseas. As far as kids go: every school I have ever taught at, and I've taught at many, there were kids of teachers at that school. Its not only practical, its an incredible experience for the kids.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure that I want "plenty of men" sniffing around my wife. I think I'd rather wait on divorce; I'm not sure it's the best option for me right now.
> 
> 
> 
> True but I'd still like to wait a bit before I jump into divorce.



So what exactly is your agreed upon plan? Was it to wait out this contact? 

You entire argument is fueled by the fact that you want to do what you want to do and everything you come up with is meant to support what you want. 

But this is no longer the life your wife wants. Simply because you find it to be an incredible opportunity doesn't mean that's what she wants. Do I understand correctly that she's currently pregnant? Because maybe she doesn't want to run around the world pregnant with little kids in tow. And she's married but without her hb; that's the worst kind of loneliness. 

So if you don't want to jump into divorce what exactly is your plan to solve this? To just keep trying convince her to want this life?

Have you always been faithful, considering that you're away from your wife for long periods of time? 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Maxo

Rookie4 said:


> So, OP, have you or your wife, decided on divorce or not? A polygraph has very little relevance , if either one of you have decided to exit the marriage. Paternity tests are far more important, in a situation such as this. It doesn't matter, legally whether she agrees to a poly or not, so why should she? You have two issues here. 1. Polygraphs are not admissible and 2. Adultery is not grounds for divorce in most states (I can't think of any, at the moment). So, the paternity test is your best bet for legal and financial reasons. As far as her timeline goes.....who cares? You already know she cheated, right?


Actually, paternity test may be of little value, as well. Of course it depends on the jurisdiction, but, I think in the large majority of jurisdictions, any child born during the marriage is considered the spouse's for the purposes of child support obligations, regardless of actual paternity.
Before investing in these tests, I would consult a family lawyer to find out if it makes a bit of difference as regards your financial obligation for child support as to who the biological father is.
In some states, it makes zero difference. In others, it may, but , often, there is a window of time in which to make the challenge, otherwise the opportunity to challenge expires.
But, I agree that once you have knowledge of cheating, one knows enough to divorce and a poly seems of limited value unless quantity and time frames are important to one's decision re willingness to consider reconciling.


----------



## MJJEAN

Don't wait too long. If a married woman has a baby, her husband is the presumed legal father. After a period of time, that title sticks even if the husband is proven to not be the biological father. You know your wife was willing to become pregnant by another man. No reason to believe that she wouldn't actually become pregnant by another man. You do NOT want to be legally responsible for the child of another man. So, you need to make a choice sooner rather than later.


----------



## Mclane

There's a short list of things that can happen to a person that I consider to be almost unbearable and that if any of them happened to me I wouldn't want to live anymore.

1- Becoming paralyzed
2- Being thrown into jail for life for a crime I didn't commit
3- Paying support for another mans child that my girlfriend or wife cheated on me with.

Ok, admittedly the last one isn't nearly as bad as the first 2 but it's pretty damn bad. Especially if the child is young and you're in a state where the age of emancipation is 21. That's one big chunk of your life paying for someone else's "mistake".

I sure hope it doesn't happen to you.


----------



## Maxo

Mclane said:


> There's a short list of things that can happen to a person that I consider to be almost unbearable and that if any of them happened to me I wouldn't want to live anymore.
> 
> 1- Becoming paralyzed
> 2- Being thrown into jail for life for a crime I didn't commit
> 3- Paying support for another mans child that my girlfriend or wife cheated on me with.
> 
> Ok, admittedly the last one isn't nearly as bad as the first 2 but it's pretty damn bad. Especially if the child is young and you're in a state where the age of emancipation is 21. That's one big chunk of your life paying for someone else's "mistake".
> 
> I sure hope it doesn't happen to you.


I bet a fair% of the male BSs here wonder if they are the biological father and some even know they are not. Personally, I have a lot of doubts re at least one of my kids, possibly two.
However, I am extremely close to all my kids and have elected not to investigate this. I consider them all a gift and do not mind paying to support them, regardless of my doubts. Nor, do I want to , perhaps, traumatize them by making them wonder about their parentage, as they have been through enough with their mom's cheating and divorce.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Let it go Steve. You've riled people up. People come here and are asked for their history for many reasons. It's funny to me because one common refrain on TAM is "if you knew how he/she was before you got married, why'd you marry her." Your wife made that mistake as many men and women before her have and will continue to do.

I've told my friends getting married and my kids as well, NEVER go into a relationship thinking you can change someone.


----------



## sidney2718

Mclane said:


> From what I read here most of the experienced posters who recommend polys are fully aware of their limitations and recommend them as a coercive tool to illicit what can be called a "parking lot confession".
> 
> Despite their fallibility the threat of a poly can be immeasurably useful in obtaining the truth, just as it appears to be to the Op on this thread.


Sure, assuming that the wife is as dumb as a rock. 

Look at the position it puts the wife in. Her husband seriously thinks she's cheating. Now he wants a polygraph test. What if she fails? That will be the end of her marriage.

If she's guilty, she can take the test and if she fails she can claim that the tests are no good.

It seems to me that all polygraphs do is muddy the waters.


----------



## sidney2718

Maxo said:


> Agreed. I would have thought this obvious. Guess sid missed it.


Not at all. My reply is just upthread from this posting.


----------



## sidney2718

Rookie4 said:


> So, OP, have you or your wife, decided on divorce or not? A polygraph has very little relevance , if either one of you have decided to exit the marriage. Paternity tests are far more important, in a situation such as this. It doesn't matter, legally whether she agrees to a poly or not, so why should she? You have two issues here. 1. Polygraphs are not admissible and 2. Adultery is not grounds for divorce in most states (I can't think of any, at the moment). So, the paternity test is your best bet for legal and financial reasons. As far as her timeline goes.....who cares? You already know she cheated, right?


He does not need to prove adultery in order to divorce. All he has to do is file for divorce.

As far as splitting the assets it will be 50-50 plus child support. Even if adultery was admitted as a mitigating factor, it would still probably be 50-50 plus child support.

And oh yes, in most any case (unless one can prove she's an unfit mother) she'll get custody of the kids. I assume that's what the OP wants anyway.


----------



## ThePheonix

americansteve said:


> I'm not sure it's the best option for me right now.



*I think I've got it figured out my man,
*


----------



## higgsb

@ lifeistooshort


> Have you always been faithful, considering that you're away from your wife for long periods of time?


Yes - and I've had plenty of opportunities to cheat.
@Maxo



> Actually, paternity test may be of little value, as well. Of course it depends on the jurisdiction, but, I think in the large majority of jurisdictions, any child born during the marriage is considered the spouse's for the purposes of child support obligations, regardless of actual paternity.


That's correct - I'd be on the hook for child support either way but I definitely want to know. Plus, I don't know that I would pay for a kid that wasn't mind no matter what a judge might order.
@MJJEAN



> Don't wait too long. If a married woman has a baby, her husband is the presumed legal father. After a period of time, that title sticks even if the husband is proven to not be the biological father. You know your wife was willing to become pregnant by another man. No reason to believe that she wouldn't actually become pregnant by another man. You do NOT want to be legally responsible for the child of another man. So, you need to make a choice sooner rather than later.


I'd be on the hook either way and you are right - I read these texts where my says she thinks she's pregnant and wants to know what her AP thinks. He says, and I quote, "Honestly, I don't want any kids." Turns out, he had 3 kids living off food stamps at home - he didn't want HER kids but she seemed interested in having a baby with him. Not only did she pick a felon sex offender, she picked a married felon sex offender who couldn't even feed the kids he had.
@Mclane



> There's a short list of things that can happen to a person that I consider to be almost unbearable and that if any of them happened to me I wouldn't want to live anymore.
> 
> 1- Becoming paralyzed
> 2- Being thrown into jail for life for a crime I didn't commit
> 3- Paying support for another mans child that my girlfriend or wife cheated on me with.
> 
> Ok, admittedly the last one isn't nearly as bad as the first 2 but it's pretty damn bad. Especially if the child is young and you're in a state where the age of emancipation is 21. That's one big chunk of your life paying for someone else's "mistake".
> 
> I sure hope it doesn't happen to you.


I hope so too but I really don't think I would pay for another man's kid no matter what I was ordered to do. I'd probably just flee to another country. I don't know what I'd do really.
@sidney2718



> He does not need to prove adultery in order to divorce. All he has to do is file for divorce.
> 
> As far as splitting the assets it will be 50-50 plus child support. Even if adultery was admitted as a mitigating factor, it would still probably be 50-50 plus child support.
> 
> And oh yes, in most any case (unless one can prove she's an unfit mother) she'll get custody of the kids. I assume that's what the OP wants anyway.


True on all counts - in fact, in Indiana, if I mentioned the name of her affair partner during divorce proceedings, that would be a misdemeanor and get me a $500 fine. And yes, if we divorce, I would not want custody just visitation.
@phillybeffandswiss



> Let it go Steve. You've riled people up.


I'm honestly not trying to rile anyone up and I appreciate the feedback but people are different and we all have our own values and "priorities." I've read threads that I find offensive but I'm not here to judge anyone. I'm here for feedback, advice and to vent. Its good therapy.
@ThePheonix

It's not ALL about me but some of it is about me and why not.


----------



## Maxo

sidney2718 said:


> Sure, assuming that the wife is as dumb as a rock.
> 
> Look at the position it puts the wife in. Her husband seriously thinks she's cheating. Now he wants a polygraph test. What if she fails? That will be the end of her marriage.
> 
> If she's guilty, she can take the test and if she fails she can claim that the tests are no good.
> 
> It seems to me that all polygraphs do is muddy the waters.


It is the reaction to the request to take the test,not the test results that is telling,Sid.


----------



## Rookie4

americansteve said:


> @Rookie4
> 
> 
> She mentioned divorce; I don't know if I want to divorce or not. I think I'd rather wait and see how things play out at least until January, 2017. That would give me a full semester working in CR and by then I'll know if it's really the paradise I hear it is and if I'm a good fit for that school. It wouldn't be the first time I went to a good school in a great place only to find it wasn't really for me. I'd rather wait on divorce and since I mentioned the poly, she hasn't brought it up again. But you are correct on all counts: Indiana is a no fault state, the polygraph is irrelevant and the paternity test is really what matters. I just would love to get a few questions answered.
> 
> 
> 
> NO! Her and the AP DID NOT take precautions, had unprotected sex and even had a pregnancy scare. With me, she insisted on condoms but unprotected sex with the AP was just fine. That's why after I discovered the affair, I insisted on not using condoms. I know that was stupid, I wish I can undo that, but it is the truth. I just couldn't get over the fact that she had unprotected sex with her AP but insist that her husband use condoms. But yes, insisting that we have unprotected sex has really messed things up and that's 100% on me; much as I love babies, I wish she hadn't gotten pregnant.
> 
> BTW: unprotected sex wasn't the only thing she did with her AP that she wouldn't do with me!


You know for a fact that she and AP had unprotected sex? And how do you know this? Because SHE told you. and you believed her? How else would you know? It amazes me at how selective BS's are in what to believe from their cheating spouses and what not to believe. In my case, every time my wife opened her mouth and sound came out, I assumed it was a lie, and acted accordingly. But you do what you want.


----------



## Rookie4

Maxo said:


> Actually, paternity test may be of little value, as well. Of course it depends on the jurisdiction, but, I think in the large majority of jurisdictions, any child born during the marriage is considered the spouse's for the purposes of child support obligations, regardless of actual paternity.
> Before investing in these tests, I would consult a family lawyer to find out if it makes a bit of difference as regards your financial obligation for child support as to who the biological father is.
> In some states, it makes zero difference. In others, it may, but , often, there is a window of time in which to make the challenge, otherwise the opportunity to challenge expires.
> But, I agree that once you have knowledge of cheating, one knows enough to divorce and a poly seems of limited value unless quantity and time frames are important to one's decision re willingness to consider reconciling.


In the age of DNA testing, it would be very difficult, if not impossible to force a man to pay for a child that is not his. And my only consideration for this OP is the child support issue. One thing at a time.


----------



## Rookie4

MJJEAN said:


> Don't wait too long. If a married woman has a baby, her husband is the presumed legal father. After a period of time, that title sticks even if the husband is proven to not be the biological father. You know your wife was willing to become pregnant by another man. No reason to believe that she wouldn't actually become pregnant by another man. You do NOT want to be legally responsible for the child of another man. So, you need to make a choice sooner rather than later.


 If you accept the child, then you are considered the daddy. If you reject it and are proven NOT to be the father, then you are not responsible. But there is a time limit. These issues should be settled quickly, I agree.


----------



## Rookie4

sidney2718 said:


> He does not need to prove adultery in order to divorce. All he has to do is file for divorce.
> 
> As far as splitting the assets it will be 50-50 plus child support. Even if adultery was admitted as a mitigating factor, it would still probably be 50-50 plus child support.
> 
> And oh yes, in most any case (unless one can prove she's an unfit mother) she'll get custody of the kids. I assume that's what the OP wants anyway.


I was not talking about adultery as grounds for divorce, I was talking about the relevance of a polygraph. The only reason for a poly is to prove or disprove adultery. If adultery is not grounds for divorce, then a polygraph is irrelevant, if the plan is to divorce. If the OP wants to stay married, the a poly would have a little more relevance, which is why I asked him about it.


----------



## ThePheonix

Rookie4 said:


> In the age of DNA testing, it would be very difficult, if not impossible to force a man to pay for a child that is not his. And my only consideration for this OP is the child support issue. One thing at a time.


Its difficult, if not impossible to force a man to pay for a child that is his. Just look around the communities.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

According to who, the media?


----------



## higgsb

@Rookie4



> You know for a fact that she and AP had unprotected sex? And how do you know this?


I have the texts!
They talk about it in the texts!

Her POSOM says something to the effect that he doesn't want kids but that I guess that's what happens when you go bareback. She allowed unprotected sex with him but not with me. She didn't tell me anything.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Get the DNA test asap. Some states it is two months, other it can be as long as two years. There are a few who have unlimited time, but I wouldn't bank on this at all. Go find out the rules of your state and get it done.


----------



## NobodySpecial

americansteve said:


> @ lifeistooshort
> 
> I hope so too but I really don't think I would pay for another man's kid no matter what I was ordered to do. I'd probably just flee to another country. I don't know what I'd do really.


These poor kids. From thinking that they have a father to Oh Well, not my sperm. Piss off. I will take the kids if no one else wants them. Then someone will love them as PEOPLE regardless of who donated the sperm.


----------



## higgsb

@phillybeffandswiss

Funny you should mention the urgency of it all - just last night at like 2am I had a panic attack that none of these kids were mine and it was driving me out of mind. I got up and googled a paternity test but there are so many options, I just couldn't decide.

They have home test kits, which are cheap but there are contamination issues; lab based tests cost around $500.

I'm not sure which option but I will get it done.


----------



## higgsb

@NobodySpecial



> These poor kids. From thinking that they have a father to Oh Well, not my sperm. Piss off. I will take the kids if no one else wants them. Then someone will love them as PEOPLE regardless of who donated the sperm.


If it makes you feel any better: cheating, lying POS skvank that my wife is, she's also a really good mom. Those kids are her life.


----------



## NobodySpecial

americansteve said:


> @NobodySpecial
> 
> 
> 
> If it makes you feel any better: cheating, lying POS skvank that my wife is, she's also a really good mom. Those kids are her life.


Kids still need a Dad. Dad just walking out is devastating. It is not their fault your wife is a piece of ****. You married this piece of ****.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Ok, so from where I sit you have two separate issues. 

The first is that your wife cheats, and apparently has poor taste in who she cheats with. It is true that your window to establish paternity can be be limited. .... my sister is in AZ and went through this with her youngest sons dad and he was told 8 months. Ironically the kid looks just like him and now lives with him since my sister is in jail.

The second is that your lifestyle is not compatible with a family, unless you happen upon someone who wants this life. Even if she thinks she does there's a good chance she'll change her mind (as you're finding out )once she has kids, particularly when they're in school. It's crappy to force your kids to keep changing schools and leaving friends like that. 

I know military families do it because I was in, but a lot of military marriages break and that's part of the reason. 

You sound a little self centered to be honest; you're certainly entitled to do you but understand that you may have difficulty keeping a family together with that attitude.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## syhoybenden

I personally couldn't raise someone else's kid unless I knew about it from the get-go, as in adoption.

Go listen to the feminists ... kids raised by single mothers will be just fine, maybe even better since there will be no evil male influence.


----------



## bryanp

Your wife is a real piece of work. Sorry.


----------



## EleGirl

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> I would refuse any non court-ordered polygraph.


I agree. They are not accurate. But there is no way to prove that the result is a false negative or a false positive. So no way would agree to one.

Her refusing to do a polygraph test tells you exactly one thing.. that she refused to do a polygraph test. Anything else you think it means is nothing more than you making stuff up.


----------



## Rubix Cubed

NobodySpecial said:


> Kids still need a Dad. Dad just walking out is devastating. It is not their fault your wife is a piece of ****. You married this piece of ****.


They've got a Dad ,it's just might not be @americansteve. If he is not and was inclined to assume that role, that should be his choice , not an expectation.


----------



## Rookie4

americansteve said:


> @NobodySpecial
> 
> 
> 
> If it makes you feel any better: cheating, lying POS skvank that my wife is, she's also a really good mom. Those kids are her life.


I know what you mean. My wife (ex) cheated and had serious anger management issues, but she was almost the perfect Mom. For that, I have to give her credit.


----------



## Rookie4

EleGirl said:


> I agree. They are not accurate. But there is no way to prove that the result is a false negative or a false positive. So no way would agree to one.
> 
> Her refusing to do a polygraph test tells you exactly one thing.. that she refused to do a polygraph test. Anything else you think it means is nothing more than you making stuff up.


I agree. Too many BS's think a polygraph is some kind of magic bullet, that will tell you if your spouse is telling the truth or not. That is simply not true. Especially in this guys' case, where he already knows from the texts that she is a cheater. Why spend the money?


----------



## NobodySpecial

Rubix Cubed said:


> They've got a Dad ,it's just might not be @americansteve. If he is not and was inclined to assume that role, that should be his choice , not an expectation.


They have a series of potential sperm donors.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Rookie4 said:


> I know what you mean. My wife (ex) cheated and had serious anger management issues, but she was almost the perfect Mom. For that, I have to give her credit.


AFAIC this poster's wife does not qualify as such a great Mom. Not considering the paternity, the family life and the availability of a father for her children right out of the gate just so she can get her freak on disqualifies her.


----------



## Maxo

Rookie4 said:


> In the age of DNA testing, it would be very difficult, if not impossible to force a man to pay for a child that is not his. And my only consideration for this OP is the child support issue. One thing at a time.


You need to read up on this. In many, many jurisdictions, paternity fraud does not relieve a man of child support obligations and in those jurisdictions where it may, there is , often, a window of time in which to challenge paternity and attempt to avoid support.


----------



## CuddleBug

americansteve said:


> So I told my wife I've decided after all to go to Costa Rica and she was furious. She didn't mention abortion but immediately launched into a discussion about divorce. I said I really needed to get paternity tests done on the new baby and our second daughter. She scoffed at that but just wanted to make sure I'd be paying for it.
> 
> Then we got to distribution of assets. Her idea was that since there are 5 of us, I should get 1/5 and she the rest. I said no way: 50/50 and that's how it ended.
> 
> I've always had a problem with the timeline of her affair - it just sounds like a load of crap and recently I've been wondering if every time I was overseas, she's been having affairs so I said: "If you take and pass a polygraph to confirm your timeline and to confirm this has been your only affair, I'll agree to 1/5 for me and 4/5 for you."
> 
> She freaked at that and said no way and that she wouldn't be humiliated by taking a polygraph. She got angry and shut that idea down with "end of discussion." She refuses to take a polygraph.
> 
> How much should I be reading into that?
> Am I wrong to assume that her reaction basically confirms either her timeline is a load of crap or she has had multiple affairs?




If she was being honest, she would of jumped at the opportunity to take the polygraph and get 4/5 of the settlement. BUT.....she flipped and no way, end of discussion, so its quite obvious she's lying to you and had multiple affairs.


----------



## blahfridge

CuddleBug said:


> americansteve said:
> 
> 
> 
> So I told my wife I've decided after all to go to Costa Rica and she was furious. She didn't mention abortion but immediately launched into a discussion about divorce. I said I really needed to get paternity tests done on the new baby and our second daughter. She scoffed at that but just wanted to make sure I'd be paying for it.
> 
> Then we got to distribution of assets. Her idea was that since there are 5 of us, I should get 1/5 and she the rest. I said no way: 50/50 and that's how it ended.
> 
> I've always had a problem with the timeline of her affair - it just sounds like a load of crap and recently I've been wondering if every time I was overseas, she's been having affairs so I said: "If you take and pass a polygraph to confirm your timeline and to confirm this has been your only affair, I'll agree to 1/5 for me and 4/5 for you."
> 
> She freaked at that and said no way and that she wouldn't be humiliated by taking a polygraph. She got angry and shut that idea down with "end of discussion." She refuses to take a polygraph.
> 
> How much should I be reading into that?
> Am I wrong to assume that her reaction basically confirms either her timeline is a load of crap or she has had multiple affairs?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If she was being honest, she would of jumped at the opportunity to take the polygraph and get 4/5 of the settlement. BUT.....she flipped and no way, end of discussion, so its quite obvious she's lying to you and had multiple affairs.
Click to expand...

No, that doesn't mean it's quite obvious she had multiple affairs. It means she doesn't want to take the polygraph. It would freak me out and I would find it highly insulting if my H asked me to take one and he knows I had an EA. 

She is angry that he is leaving her alone again with the kids. From reading this she didn't argue about the paternity test, just said she wanted to be sure he was paying for it. He doesn't sound like a great husband and she doesn't sound like a great wife. He needs to be with someone who won't mind his taking off for months at a time and she needs to be with someone who will be more of a partner. 

This whole thread is all about selfish behavior on both sides.


----------



## Mclane

americansteve said:


> Plus, I don't know that I would pay for a kid that wasn't mind no matter what a judge might order.


Of course you wouldn't pay child support even if ordered by the court. 

Who would?

Especially since nowadays prisons are so nice, not only has the quality of the food improved but they also have game rooms and cable TV. From what I hear they're even cracking down on gang rapes too.


----------



## Divinely Favored

Mclane said:


> americansteve said:
> 
> 
> 
> Plus, I don't know that I would pay for a kid that wasn't mind no matter what a judge might order.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course you wouldn't pay child support even if ordered by the court.
> 
> Who would?
> 
> Especially since nowadays prisons are so nice, not only has the quality of the food improved but they also have game rooms and cable TV. From what I hear they're even cracking down on gang rapes too.
Click to expand...

Don't think they will extradite from Costa Rica for non payment of child support on child that is not yours.


----------



## Mclane

Divinely Favored said:


> Don't think they will extradite from Costa Rica for non payment of child support on child that is not yours.


True, to avoid paying support, a person could flee the country and spend the rest of their life in a place that does not support extradition.

Or, as I suggested, they could spend it in a cushy jail with 3 square meals a day and a game room and hope that they avoid prison rape.

What other options do people have when they have decided to ignore a court order? 

We can probably come up with quite a list.

How about "hide out in a woody area of the country and live off the land"


----------



## higgsb

@Mclane


> Or, as I suggested, they could spend it in a cushy jail with 3 square meals a day and a game room and hope that they avoid prison rape.


Put the threat of prison rape, as you yourself have mentioned three times now, along with the fact that we have 2,000,000 citizens in prison, the highest number in the world, and that's reason enough to flee America.

I always tell people: "America, love it or leave it; well, I'm the guy that left."

It does Fly in the face of that "land of the free" slogan when a man can go to jail and face rape for refusing to support another man's child. It almost makes me think America is one of the greatest scams of all time. But I guess that's a topic for a different category.


----------



## Maxo

blahfridge said:


> No, that doesn't mean it's quite obvious she had multiple affairs. It means she doesn't want to take the polygraph. It would freak me out and I would find it highly insulting if my H asked me to take one and he knows I had an EA.
> 
> She is angry that he is leaving her alone again with the kids. From reading this she didn't argue about the paternity test, just said she wanted to be sure he was paying for it. He doesn't sound like a great husband and she doesn't sound like a great wife. He needs to be with someone who won't mind his taking off for months at a time and she needs to be with someone who will be more of a partner.
> 
> This whole thread is all about selfish behavior on both sides.


How can a known cheater have the temerity to object to a polygraph?
And,no,she does not need to be with someone who is more of a partner,IMO. She needs a person who will be okay with an open marriage. Or,she should just be alone.


----------



## Maxo

EleGirl said:


> I agree. They are not accurate. But there is no way to prove that the result is a false negative or a false positive. So no way would agree to one.
> 
> Her refusing to do a polygraph test tells you exactly one thing.. that she refused to do a polygraph test. Anything else you think it means is nothing more than you making stuff up.


Never heard of any court ordering a polygraph.


----------



## Maxo

Rookie4 said:


> I know what you mean. My wife (ex) cheated and had serious anger management issues, but she was almost the perfect Mom. For that, I have to give her credit.


Yeah,she sounds just like June Cleaver.


----------



## Maxo

Mclane said:


> Of course you wouldn't pay child support even if ordered by the court.
> 
> Who would?
> 
> Especially since nowadays prisons are so nice, not only has the quality of the food improved but they also have game rooms and cable TV. From what I hear they're even cracking down on gang rapes too.


I bet very few non paying spouses do serious jail time,and,in those rare instancs of incarceration,the majority would be in county workhouses,not the types of lock ups where rape is common.


----------



## michzz

Rookie4 said:


> If you are getting a divorce, what difference does it make HOW many guys she screwed? The only relevant pieces of info you need are paternity tests. To determine child support. Everything else is just unnecessary drama.


Knowing the truth of one's life is a powerful and reassuring thing to get to do. Having a spouse FINALLY admit the full truth of their infidelity is something great to receive. It validates the accusations and the theft of time, and your gut feeling that things are not right.


----------



## Rookie4

michzz said:


> Knowing the truth of one's life is a powerful and reassuring thing to get to do. Having a spouse FINALLY admit the full truth of their infidelity is something great to receive. It validates the accusations and the theft of time, and your gut feeling that things are not right.


Personally speaking, I don't require the validation or reassurance of others, ESPECIALLY my cheating ex wife. Are you sure this is what you mean, Michzz? Because it sounds pretty weak to me, and I've never heard of a woman who was attracted to weakness. This is about the poorest reason for a polygraph, ever.


----------



## Rookie4

If you already know that he/she is cheating, why do you need to have them admit it? What does their opinions and feelings matter, after the fact? I once caught an employee pilfering the medical supplies, and fired him. Him admitting to it or not was irrelevant.


----------



## michzz

Rookie4 said:


> Personally speaking, I don't require the validation or reassurance of others, ESPECIALLY my cheating ex wife. Are you sure this is what you mean, Michzz? Because it sounds pretty weak to me, and I've never heard of a woman who was attracted to weakness. This is about the poorest reason for a polygraph, ever.





michzz said:


> Knowing the truth of one's life is a powerful and reassuring thing to get to do. Having a spouse FINALLY admit the full truth of their infidelity is something great to receive. It validates the accusations and the theft of time, and your gut feeling that things are not right.


So you see it as weakness to insist on getting at the truth? I don't follow your line of reasoning.

BTW, you think I give a rat's a$$ about whether my former wife thinks me weak or strong, or not at all?


You do not know a thing about me, seriously.

I strongly believe that the truth sets a person free.

Whether or not it is needed in order to go forward with a divorce is a side issue.


----------



## Mclane

Maxo said:


> I bet very few non paying spouses do serious jail time


You'd lose.

There are prisons full of "deadbeat" fathers who cannot afford to pay child support, and once they are jailed their job prospects further diminish, but the courts don't care and hold them responsible for the unpaid support, the interest and penalties for contempt acrue while they're incarcerated and they find themselves in a hole that no one can possibly get out of.

Here's some reading material for you.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/20/us/skip-child-support-go-to-jail-lose-job-repeat.html?_r=0

One-Eighth Of South Carolina Inmates Were Jailed Over Child Support Payments. Walter Scott Was One Of Them.

Cost is high to jail parents for missed child support - Post and Courier


----------



## wmn1

NobodySpecial said:


> These poor kids. From thinking that they have a father to Oh Well, not my sperm. Piss off. I will take the kids if no one else wants them. Then someone will love them as PEOPLE regardless of who donated the sperm.


I don't expect Steve or anyone else to support kids that are not their own and are born out of wedlock unless they agree to.


It wouldn't just be poor kids. It would be poor Steve that he ran afoul of a cheating skank who f$$ded other men behind his back and had kids out of wedlock and allowed him to take care of them without his knowledge potentially entrapping him into paying for her and AP's kids for the remainder.


IT'S not always about the kids. Steve would be well within his rights to walk away and shouldn't feel one ounce of guilt for it as it would be HIM and NOT us who would have to handled that crap sandwich for the next so many years.


That is provided the kids aren't his.


I would test Steve


----------



## Mclane

NobodySpecial said:


> These poor kids. From thinking that they have a father to Oh Well, not my sperm. Piss off. I will take the kids if no one else wants them. Then someone will love them as PEOPLE regardless of who donated the sperm.


If the children are not his, and they're the result of a deceptive cheating spouse, then he is completely within his rights to walk away and try to get out of his legal support obligation, I sure would.

Here you are all righteous and saying you'll take them- well in case you didn't already know, there's lots of starving children in 3rd world countries and lots of underprivileged children right here in this country so go right ahead and practice what you preach and send 3/4 of your paycheck to Ethiopia or your third world country of choice or to one of the many organizations right here in our great country who take care of these poor kids.

But you won't because it's easy to sit there at your keyboard and smugly pass judgement on others and say how you'd do it all differently because you've got better moral character- while of course not doing a freaking thing other than type merrily away about how superior you are to everyone else.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

The DNA test is all you need and is pretty much accurate a huge majority of the time. Yes, there are instances of mixed and bad results. The failure rate is MINUSCULE compared to the failure rates of the polygraph. The results will be all you need and could possibly end the argument except, for the moral indignation some have for a father unwilling to *raise another man's INFIDELITY based child.*


----------



## wmn1

Mclane said:


> If the children are not his, and they're the result of a deceptive cheating spouse, then he is completely within his rights to walk away and try to get out of his legal support obligation, I sure would.
> 
> Here you are all righteous and saying you'll take them- well in case you didn't already know, there's lots of starving children in 3rd world countries and lots of underprivileged children right here in this country so go right ahead and practice what you preach and send 3/4 of your paycheck to Ethiopia or your third world country of choice or to one of the many organizations right here in our great country who take care of these poor kids.
> 
> But you won't because it's easy to sit there at your keyboard and smugly pass judgement on others and say how you'd do it all differently because you've got better moral character- while of course not doing a freaking thing other than type merrily away about how superior you are to everyone else.


exactly. I agree 100%. Either donate to the poor kids or volunteer to sit there and live with a cheating, unremorseful spouse and watch her kids walk all over the house as a constant reminder of what she did. Do this for 18 years and see how much of yourself is left. I guarantee you there wouldn't be much of either Steve or myself. Personality, depression, self esteem etc..... constant triggers


----------



## ThePheonix

wmn1 said:


> I don't expect Steve or anyone else to support kids that are not their own and are born out of wedlock unless they agree to.


The court likely views it that if the guy stays, he would be paying for the kid anyway. If a guys is willing to support the kid if the reconciliation works, but not if the reconciliation fails, I can see the logic. It would than appear he is willing to support the OM child if and only if, he gets to share a bed with the mother.
If a guy summarily divorces his wife because she's carrying another man's child, I can understand the unfairness of him being saddled with child support.


----------



## blahfridge

So much written here under the assumption that the kids are not OP's. His wife clearly said that she would accept DNA testing but he had to pay for it. Why would she do that if the children were not his? Am I missing something here? 

I hate how children are being discussed as if they are pieces on a chess board. Just my personal opinion, but this whole conversation is stomach turning.


----------



## NobodySpecial

wmn1 said:


> I don't expect Steve or anyone else to support kids that are not their own and are born out of wedlock unless they agree to.
> 
> 
> It wouldn't just be poor kids. It would be poor Steve that he ran afoul of a cheating skank who f$$ded other men behind his back and had kids out of wedlock and allowed him to take care of them without his knowledge potentially entrapping him into paying for her and AP's kids for the remainder.
> 
> 
> IT'S not always about the kids. Steve would be well within his rights to walk away and shouldn't feel one ounce of guilt for it as it would be HIM and NOT us who would have to handled that crap sandwich for the next so many years.
> 
> 
> That is provided the kids aren't his.
> 
> 
> I would test Steve


Rights smights. Of course he is well within his rights. What are rights? What rights do these kids have? They get to be born to two useless tools. One who will bang anything and one who will run off to a foreign country over... money for sperm. I understand that this is a self selecting board. People who are damaged by their moronic excuses for marriage. But it burns me how little people consider the children born of these messes.


----------



## ThePheonix

I'd guess the kids are the husband's. His wife just got tired of his being gone all the time and just decided to get her a little on the side. You can bet the farm she ain't the only woman to go looking for what a man that's gone can't do.


----------



## wmn1

ThePheonix said:


> The court likely views it that if the guy stays, he would be paying for the kid anyway. If a guys is willing to support the kid if the reconciliation works, but not if the reconciliation fails, I can see the logic. It would than appear he is willing to support the OM child if and only if, he gets to share a bed with the mother.
> If a guy summarily divorces his wife because she's carrying another man's child, I can understand the unfairness of him being saddled with child support.


In this case, if Steve finds out, it would be a new discovery and in many jurisdictions, he would not be on the hook. In fact, he would have a leg up in divorce proceedings. 

I get your logic with the rest of it but IMO this case is different. He found out about the cheating and now, with the scenario we are passing around, if new information arises that the kids are not his, it would have little or nothing to do with him sharing a bed with the mother.

Again,we are arguing hypotheticals


----------



## wmn1

ThePheonix said:


> I'd guess the kids are the husband's. His wife just got tired of his being gone all the time and just decided to get her a little on the side. You can bet the farm she ain't the only woman to go looking for what a man that's gone can't do.


again we are arguing semantics but while I understand your statement, and know that it is the reality, I disagree with your conclusion. 

I get it but if he was loyal while he was gone, she's got no excuse. Additionally, if she got sloppy and had unprotected sex and got pregnant and had the OM's kids and knew this was a possibility (or even probability) and let him start to raise them, then in addition to being a cheating skank, she manipulated him and he should have no obligation to the kids or her anymore. If I was him and this scenario proved to be true, I'd be fleeing as well, though I would be doing it in the divorce courts, not to Costa Rica


----------



## Mclane

NobodySpecial said:


> Rights smights. Of course he is well within his rights. What are rights? What rights do these kids have? They get to be born to two useless tools. One who will bang anything and one who will run off to a foreign country over... money for sperm. I understand that this is a self selecting board. People who are damaged by their moronic excuses for marriage. But it burns me how little people consider the children born of these messes.


It burns me how some people can easily pass judgement on others while doing the same thing themselves.
@NobodySpecial

Have you called Karsforkids or some other non profit organization for children, and offered the bulk of your paycheck for these poor children who were "born to useless tools?" If not, why not?


----------



## Mclane

blahfridge said:


> So much written here under the assumption that the kids are not OP's. His wife clearly said that she would accept DNA testing but he had to pay for it. Why would she do that if the children were not his? Am I missing something here?


I'm missing where his wife clearly said she'd accept DNA testing and I just read through the entire thread again after reading your post.

"If" his wife said this then it changes things, but like I said I'm not seeing that here.

Please provide a link to the post where his wife said she'd accept DNA testing. 

Of course he can DNA test the children without her cooperation but that's not the point.


----------



## wmn1

Mclane said:


> I'm missing where his wife clearly said she'd accept DNA testing and I just read through the entire thread again after reading your post.
> 
> "If" his wife said this then it changes things, but like I said I'm not seeing that here.
> 
> Please provide a link to the post where his wife said she'd accept DNA testing.
> 
> Of course he can DNA test the children without her cooperation but that's not the point.


I'm with you McLane


----------



## Mclane

wmn1 said:


> I'm with you McLane


You know what wmn1, even if NobodySpecial DID in fact donate most of her paycheck to poor under privileged children in the world and was not a big hypocrite, it still wouldn't change anything because it really comes down to a matter of personal choice, not some anonymous internet person's hypocritical double standards.

For example, sometimes we'll hear about some major world traumatic event like an earthquake that just wiped out millions of people, yes including children. Sometimes we'll hear about a family ripped apart by some random act of violence or the forces of nature. Do most of us start crying and donating money and put our own lives on hold because we feel badly about these people and their struggles? Of course we don't. We shrug our shoulders and ask a family member to please pass the cranberry sauce and we get on with our lives and be glad it didn't happen to us. For the most part, we don't give these poor people more than a few seconds of thought and we don't give them a dime of our hard earned money.

Nor are we "supposed to". Some of us are generous and spend our lives trying to make the world a better place. Some of us don't, we take care of ourselves and those who we care about and nothing more.

And there's nothing wrong with either approach. 

It just irks me when others tell us how to live our lives and what we should be doing and thinking just because it might differ with their own views. Of course in the case of the poster that I quoted earlier, their views are exactly the same as ours, she just decided to start pointing fingers at everyone other than herself for reasons that defy logic and explanation.

The tired old argument that "well you married her you should be responsible for her children" (that were the seed of the other man) holds absolutely no weight either. 

Yeah it's too bad for the kids. They got caught up in a mess that they didn't ask for. Just like the kids that have abusive, or drug addicted or incarcerated criminals as parents.

It happens, it really blows, but it's not the fault nor is it the problem of some poor guy that got sucked into it by a lowlife deceptive cheating spouse.

Anyone that thinks otherwise, and preaches otherwise is so out of line that they are incapable of reason and common sense.


----------



## Maxo

Mclane said:


> You'd lose.
> 
> There are prisons full of "deadbeat" fathers who cannot afford to pay child support, and once they are jailed their job prospects further diminish, but the courts don't care and hold them responsible for the unpaid support, the interest and penalties for contempt acrue while they're incarcerated and they find themselves in a hole that no one can possibly get out of.
> 
> Here's some reading material for you.
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/20/us/skip-child-support-go-to-jail-lose-job-repeat.html?_r=0
> 
> One-Eighth Of South Carolina Inmates Were Jailed Over Child Support Payments. Walter Scott Was One Of Them.
> 
> Cost is high to jail parents for missed child support - Post and Courier


Wow. I had no idea that states went after folks that hard. Not sure if we can extrapolate from South Carolina.and Georgia,but,maybe.


----------



## Maxo

Rookie4 said:


> Personally speaking, I don't require the validation or reassurance of others, ESPECIALLY my cheating ex wife. Are you sure this is what you mean, Michzz? Because it sounds pretty weak to me, and I've never heard of a woman who was attracted to weakness. This is about the poorest reason for a polygraph, ever.


This seems poorly thought out to me. Validation vs knowing the truth? A relatively easy distinction between the two concepts.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Mclane said:


> It burns me how some people can easily pass judgement on others while doing the same thing themselves.
> 
> @NobodySpecial
> 
> Have you called Karsforkids or some other non profit organization for children, and offered the bulk of your paycheck for these poor children who were "born to useless tools?" If not, why not?


I am more than comfortable with my charitable activities for the benefit of children. Thank you.


----------



## Mclane

Maxo said:


> Wow. I had no idea that states went after folks that hard. Not sure if we can extrapolate from South Carolina.and Georgia,but,maybe.


Massachusetts until recently had one of the strictest alimony laws in the country, it was common for the non custodial parent, usually the husband to have to pay LIFETIME support even after marriages of short duration.

Suicide rates were unsurprisingly, somewhat high.

In case the links I provided weren't enough, try this one. 

Man Literally Sets Himself On Fire On The Courthouse Steps | Above the Law


----------



## Mclane

NobodySpecial said:


> I am more than comfortable with my charitable activities for the benefit of children. Thank you.


Of course you are.

I personally think you can do more.


----------



## Maxo

Mclane said:


> Massachusetts until recently had one of the strictest alimony laws in the country, it was common for the non custodial parent, usually the husband to have to pay LIFETIME support even after marriages of short duration.
> 
> Suicide rates were unsurprisingly, somewhat high.
> 
> In case the links I provided weren't enough, try this one.
> 
> Man Literally Sets Himself On Fire On The Courthouse Steps | Above the Law


This is why we need a men' s rights movement. Female privelige and male disposability are rampant.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Female privilege? Are you kidding? 

That dbag slapped his 4 year old, did not pay what was not a big amount of child support, and all his ex wife wanted was for him to SPLIT medical expenses. 

Dude was out of work for TWO years. .... he could've taken a job, but clearly he didn't think he should have to support his kids.

Since she asked him to leave I guess he's off the hook for his kids.

Yeah, she was a real b!tch.

I'd bet if a woman had done the same things you'd be screaming about how she should be in jail.

If you're going to take up the cause of poor, abused men at least use a case not involving a dbag.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NobodySpecial

Mclane said:


> Of course you are.
> 
> I personally think you can do more.


What? You want a copy of my time sheet and budget? How the **** would you know?

I don't actually blame this guy. What I don't understand is the focus on money. PAYING for someone else' sperm product seems to be a problem. Even after spending years being their actual de facto father. Don't get it.


----------



## wmn1

Mclane said:


> You know what wmn1, even if NobodySpecial DID in fact donate most of her paycheck to poor under privileged children in the world and was not a big hypocrite, it still wouldn't change anything because it really comes down to a matter of personal choice, not some anonymous internet person's hypocritical double standards.
> 
> For example, sometimes we'll hear about some major world traumatic event like an earthquake that just wiped out millions of people, yes including children. Sometimes we'll hear about a family ripped apart by some random act of violence or the forces of nature. Do most of us start crying and donating money and put our own lives on hold because we feel badly about these people and their struggles? Of course we don't. We shrug our shoulders and ask a family member to please pass the cranberry sauce and we get on with our lives and be glad it didn't happen to us. For the most part, we don't give these poor people more than a few seconds of thought and we don't give them a dime of our hard earned money.
> 
> Nor are we "supposed to". Some of us are generous and spend our lives trying to make the world a better place. Some of us don't, we take care of ourselves and those who we care about and nothing more.
> 
> And there's nothing wrong with either approach.
> 
> It just irks me when others tell us how to live our lives and what we should be doing and thinking just because it might differ with their own views. Of course in the case of the poster that I quoted earlier, their views are exactly the same as ours, she just decided to start pointing fingers at everyone other than herself for reasons that defy logic and explanation.
> 
> The tired old argument that "well you married her you should be responsible for her children" (that were the seed of the other man) holds absolutely no weight either.
> 
> Yeah it's too bad for the kids. They got caught up in a mess that they didn't ask for. Just like the kids that have abusive, or drug addicted or incarcerated criminals as parents.
> 
> It happens, it really blows, but it's not the fault nor is it the problem of some poor guy that got sucked into it by a lowlife deceptive cheating spouse.
> 
> Anyone that thinks otherwise, and preaches otherwise is so out of line that they are incapable of reason and common sense.


What also scares me is that everyone is led to believe 'it's all about the kids'. My brother-in-law has been in an abusive relationship and has been cheated on for 8 years. He has stayed because of his daughter. However, there's nothing of him left. Absolutely nothing. I barely recognize the guy anymore.

I often times advocate for divorce, I get that. But good God, if she has kids out of wedlock, that is not only terminal, there is no coming back from that and who would want to.

It is the problem of his cheating wife and the OM at that point. How anyone could possibly think he should have responsibility over these kids is mind numbing. Not unless he agreed to it after long thought and he never did or would do that.

Let's just par Mclane that it doesn't turn out that way though I think he should curb her arse anyway. I agree completely with you and disagree completely with NobodySpecial


----------



## Mclane

NobodySpecial said:


> PAYING for someone else' sperm product seems to be a problem.


I can't imagine why.


----------



## wmn1

NobodySpecial said:


> What? You want a copy of my time sheet and budget? How the **** would you know?
> 
> I don't actually blame this guy. What I don't understand is the focus on money. PAYING for someone else' sperm product seems to be a problem. Even after spending years being their actual de facto father. Don't get it.


The reality of it is would he pay for the kid if he knew it wasn't his ? And then that would indicate that he got not only cheated on but robbed of the choice to pay or divorce. Therein lies the problem


----------



## NobodySpecial

Mclane said:


> I can't imagine why.


Because money is more important than people? Even little innocent people? Thank goodness my husband does not think like this.


----------



## NobodySpecial

wmn1 said:


> The reality of it is would he pay for the kid if he knew it wasn't his ? And then that would indicate that he got not only cheated on but robbed of the choice to pay or divorce. Therein lies the problem


I am not so much saying what any one person should do. It just seems like money is a dumb thing to be so attached to that that you cannot be a parent to the kids who expect that of you despite the the craziness of their parents' actions.


----------



## Mclane

lifeistooshort said:


> Female privilege? Are you kidding?
> 
> That dbag slapped his 4 year old, did not pay what was not a big amount of child support, and all his ex wife wanted was for him to SPLIT medical expenses.
> 
> Dude was out of work for TWO years. .... he could've taken a job, but clearly he didn't think he should have to support his kids.


Details are sketchy, the guy might have been a loser but the point remains that he was jailed repeatedly for a small amount of child support debt. I think it's generally agreed that incarceration makes getting a job more difficult if not impossible. Especially given this economy where employers can choose someone without a criminal record.


----------



## Mclane

NobodySpecial said:


> Because money is more important than people? Even little innocent people? Thank goodness my husband does not think like this.


Try divorcing him and then come back here and tell us how little he cares about money.



NobodySpecial said:


> I am not so much saying what any one person should do. It just seems like money is a dumb thing to be so attached to that that you cannot be a parent to the kids who expect that of you despite the the craziness of their parents' actions.


Yeah money is so dumb. Lets just give it all away and share everything with our less fortunate planetary coinhabitants.

Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg can go first.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Mclane said:


> Yeah money is so dumb. Lets just give it all away and share everything with our less fortunate planetary coinhabitants.
> 
> Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg can go first.


Say something of compassion or shut the hell up.


----------



## wmn1

NobodySpecial said:


> I am not so much saying what any one person should do. It just seems like money is a dumb thing to be so attached to that that you cannot be a parent to the kids who expect that of you despite the the craziness of their parents' actions.


Some people, most people can't get over being cheated on as it is.

But expecting a betrayed spouse to not only forgive an affair but to take responsibility for a child that is not theirs, originating from a pregnancy that stemmed from an affair, and to ask that person not only to stick it out but to 

1) Forgive the affair
2) Take responsibility for the child who is not theirs ($ and time) 
3) have to deal with the OM for a long period of time and trigger when his wife has contact with him
4) Look at the kids and know they aren't a product of him ? if they look like her, it hurts because it should be with him. If they look like the OM, it is a constant reminder of the affair. 
5) Sacrifice your goals to raise them

90% of the people I know couldn't get through #1, let alone the rest.

With that being said, yes $$ is important. Very important. People should have to pay and be responsible for THEIR own kids. Not someone else's especially when it's born out of infidelity.


----------



## Mclane

NobodySpecial said:


> Say something of compassion or shut the hell up.


----------



## wmn1

Mclane said:


> Details are sketchy, the guy might have been a loser but the point remains that he was jailed repeatedly for a small amount of child support debt. I think it's generally agreed that incarceration makes getting a job more difficult if not impossible. Especially given this economy where employers can choose someone without a criminal record.



I work in the field. Some good people get hemmed up in the vicious negative cycle you talk about. It also happens in the DV field too. 

The courts are also stacked against men which is one of the reason law firms like Cordell and Cordell are emerging as prominent powers in the men's rights area.


----------



## higgsb

@NobodySpecial



> Thank goodness my husband does not think like this.


What exactly does that mean?
Is your husband raising another man's kid?
@Mclane is correct about going to jail for non-payment as far as Indiana goes. I don't think it matter's if the dad is the biological father or not. I personally would do everything in my power NOT to pay, short of going jail. 

It's all speculation though. My wife seems fine with a paternity test; it may be a bluff to throw me off getting one but I doubt it. It's the polygraph she freaked on.


----------



## blahfridge

americansteve said:


> So I told my wife I've decided after all to go to Costa Rica and she was furious. She didn't mention abortion but immediately launched into a discussion about divorce.* I said I really needed to get paternity tests done on the new baby and our second daughter. She scoffed at that but just wanted to make sure I'd be paying for it.
> *
> 
> She did not refuse to take the test, but wants him to pay for it. Unless he is using scoffed incorrectly. Maybe the OP can clarify?
> 
> 
> Then we got to distribution of assets. Her idea was that since there are 5 of us, I should get 1/5 and she the rest. I said no way: 50/50 and that's how it ended.
> 
> I've always had a problem with the timeline of her affair - it just sounds like a load of crap and recently I've been wondering if every time I was overseas, she's been having affairs so I said: "If you take and pass a polygraph to confirm your timeline and to confirm this has been your only affair, I'll agree to 1/5 for me and 4/5 for you."
> 
> She freaked at that and said no way and that she wouldn't be humiliated by taking a polygraph. She got angry and shut that idea down with "end of discussion." She refuses to take a polygraph.
> 
> How much should I be reading into that?
> Am I wrong to assume that her reaction basically confirms either her timeline is a load of crap or she has had multiple affairs?





Mclane said:


> I'm missing where his wife clearly said she'd accept DNA testing and I just read through the entire thread again after reading your post.
> 
> "If" his wife said this then it changes things, but like I said I'm not seeing that here.
> 
> Please provide a link to the post where his wife said she'd accept DNA testing.
> 
> Of course he can DNA test the children without her cooperation but that's not the point.


----------



## Maxo

lifeistooshort said:


> Female privilege? Are you kidding?
> 
> That dbag slapped his 4 year old, did not pay what was not a big amount of child support, and all his ex wife wanted was for him to SPLIT medical expenses.
> 
> Dude was out of work for TWO years. .... he could've taken a job, but clearly he didn't think he should have to support his kids.
> 
> Since she asked him to leave I guess he's off the hook for his kids.
> 
> Yeah, she was a real b!tch.
> 
> I'd bet if a woman had done the same things you'd be screaming about how she should be in jail.
> 
> If you're going to take up the cause of poor, abused men at least use a case not involving a dbag.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes,I was thinking of the biase court system,in general vs this guy.


----------



## ThePheonix

wmn1 said:


> Additionally, if she got sloppy and had unprotected sex and got pregnant and had the OM's kids and knew this was a possibility (or even probability) and let him start to raise them, then in addition to being a cheating skank, she manipulated him and he should have no obligation to the kids or her anymore.


Here's the thing. I can't help but wonder why she would get sloppy and have unprotected sex with the OM. Maybe she wasn't sloppy at all and it was a willful move on her part.
Additionally, him putting up with her "making" him wear a rubber while barebacking the OM is beyond comprehension. What does she have to do to convince him she can't stand him touching her? Wear a hazmat suit when they have sex?
If I was him, I'd ditch this broad and get me one of those Costa Rican babes with a bodacious azz. I mean why put up with that crap if you don't have to.


----------



## higgsb

@ThePheonix



> Additionally, him putting up with her "making" him wear a rubber while barebacking the OM is beyond comprehension. What does she have to do to convince him she can't stand him touching her? Wear a hazmat suit when they have sex?


I didn't put up with; I insisted on bareback myself and that's why she's pregnant. Stupid, I realize that, but I was driven by strange forces in the months right after D-Day and then I guess we just got into the habit of it. It is much better without condoms.



> If I was him, I'd ditch this broad and get me one of those Costa Rican babes with a bodacious azz.


Yeah right? I swear it wasn't my motivation but I been reading up on CR and it seems its not a bad place to meet a young Tica. I'll admit that the thought has entered my mind more than once.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

americansteve said:


> but I was driven by strange forces in the months right after D-Day and then I guess we just got into the habit of it. It is much better without condoms.


It's called hysterical bonding, go look it up. Go get your passport because you'll never get rid of child support.


----------



## wmn1

ThePheonix said:


> Here's the thing. I can't help but wonder why she would get sloppy and have unprotected sex with the OM. Maybe she wasn't sloppy at all and it was a willful move on her part.
> Additionally, him putting up with her "making" him wear a rubber while barebacking the OM is beyond comprehension. What does she have to do to convince him she can't stand him touching her? Wear a hazmat suit when they have sex?
> If I was him, I'd ditch this broad and get me one of those Costa Rican babes with a bodacious azz. I mean why put up with that crap if you don't have to.



LOL, I am with you, Phoenix. Completely with you on this


----------



## ThePheonix

Stevie my man, why don't you just divorce her, pay the child support, and get out of this nightmare. Neither of you are going to be that broken hearted. Moreover, don't add, "its important my kids have a father". You're fooling yourself. You're absentee now so it ain't like you're spending every evening parenting them. Making child support a factor is a non issue. Youre paying child support even if you don't divorce.
You remind me of a of a neighbor of mine that's career military. He enjoys coming home, shaking things up, disrupting the life of his kids, banging his old lady, and its off on another "call of duty" assignment. Do the right thing for both of you and end this thing. You'll feel better.


----------



## Rookie4

michzz said:


> So you see it as weakness to insist on getting at the truth? I don't follow your line of reasoning.
> 
> BTW, you think I give a rat's a$$ about whether my former wife thinks me weak or strong, or not at all?
> 
> 
> You do not know a thing about me, seriously.
> 
> I strongly believe that the truth sets a person free.
> 
> Whether or not it is needed in order to go forward with a divorce is a side issue.


I disagree. The only fact I needed to know was, did or did not my wife cheat. All of the sordid details then became irrelevant. How many times they f*cked, what they had to eat, where they did the deed at, are all meaningless. If a person is going to divorce, what possible good does it do? Now, I agree that if you are going to reconcile, you need the details of the affair. 
But that isn't what you said in your post,you said that knowing , would give you reassurance and validation And I say , reassurance and validation of what? You already know that she cheated, why do you need to know more, if you are going to D ?
BTW, what set me free, was the divorce court, not the truth. I didn't give 2 sh*ts about my ex wife nor any and all of her activities.


----------



## Mclane

americansteve said:


> I insisted on bareback myself and that's why she's pregnant. Stupid, I realize that


It could be the single most expensive mistake you have ever made or will ever make in your entire life.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Maxo said:


> Yes,I was thinking of the biase court system,in general vs this guy.


Fair enough, there certainly is some court bias toward women. 

This guy was a victim of his little but his own d0uchbaggery.

I think the bias will change but like all social change its slow.

One thing men can do to really push this is stop buying into the idea that it's their job to provide, their career should always take precedence, and child care should fall disproportionately to women. 

And look for a woman who is career minded and support that. 

Once you establish financial equality the favoring of women will go away. 

I think a lot of men don't understand how they perpetuate this by focusing on the
physical and little to financial. 

This guy is perpetuating this right now. ....if these kids are his he doesn't even want any custody so he can do him. The default assumption being that they're her job.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mclane

lifeistooshort said:


> if these kids are his he doesn't even want any custody so he can do him.


I'm having a problem deciphering this sentence.


----------



## Decorum

americansteve said:


> I googled wife refuses to take a polygraph and I got this TAM thread:
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/50545-polygraph-take-not-take-2.html
> 
> The bottom line is that there is no certainty in anything except (maybe) paternity tests. Even if she passed, I'm not sure I'd believe the results. Her reaction to me asking her to take a polygraph was possibly telling but doesn't prove anything. The nature of affairs and how they tend to follow definite stages indicates she's lying about the timeline but maybe her affair was a statistical outlier. I'll never know the whole truth. I just blindly stumbled upon some texts.


Thanks to lawyers the laws of physics hardly apply in the courtroom anymore.
In the courtroom it's an alternate reality.

Use some common sense here, a polygraph can change the course of an entire investigation because the investigators understand the real world implications of passing or failing it.

Its not 100% but combined with other facts it a very useful tool.

Her refusal is significant, dont live in denial.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lifeistooshort

Mclane said:


> I'm having a problem deciphering this sentence.


He said he wasn't interested in any kind of custody, only visitation. I'm left to assume it's because raising kids is incompatible with running around the world. 

But maybe that's not it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

ThePheonix said:


> If I was him, I'd ditch this broad and get me one of those Costa Rican babes with a bodacious azz. I mean why put up with that crap if you don't have to.


Word.


----------



## bandit.45

lifeistooshort said:


> He said he wasn't interested in any kind of custody, only visitation. I'm left to assume it's because raising kids is incompatible with running around the world.
> 
> But maybe that's not it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Shes a ho and he seems to want to be an absentee dad now. Too bad for the kids.


----------



## lifeistooshort

bandit.45 said:


> Shes a ho and he seems to want to be an absentee dad now. Too bad for the kids.


Agreed.

Neither one is marriage material.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## higgsb

@Decorum



> Thanks to lawyers the laws of physics hardly apply in the courtroom anymore.
> In the courtroom it's an alternate reality.
> 
> Use some common sense here, a polygraph can change the course of an entire investigation because the investigators understand the real world implications of passing or failing it.
> 
> Its not 100% but combined with other facts it a very useful tool.
> 
> Her refusal is significant, dont live in denial.


As far as the courts go and our criminal justice system in general, I've lost all respect since this started. Not only does adultery not figure into distribution of assets and spousal support, even bringing it up (at least in Indiana) is a misdemeanor offense. You are also correct about polygraphs IMHO - she's hiding something. I'm guessing either multiple affairs or her timeline is complete nonsense or both. 
@bandit.45



> Shes a ho and he seems to want to be an absentee dad now. Too bad for the kids.


 @lifeistooshort



> Agreed.
> 
> Neither one is marriage material.


This is what burns me up - the self righteous leaning their heads together and deciding what makes or does not make a good marriage. I'm not going to even bother explaining myself again but I will say that there are more than a few ways to live a life and have a family. You should try not to be so judgemental; it's judgement that destroys you and by that I mean your own judgement.

And btw, my wife is not a ho; at worst she's a slvt. Probably she just wasn't happy in the marriage and rather than just filing for divorce, she wanted to have a safe landing in another man's arms. 

Her mistake was she picked a serial cheater and convicted felon sex offender; if her AP was who he claimed to be, I'm sure she would have filed years ago. My wife is a coward but she's an excellent mom.


----------



## bandit.45

No she's not an excellent mom. 

A good, conscientious mom would. Or cheat on her husband and risk disrupting her children's lives. 

A good mom would not want to set a bad example for her kids, which is what she is doing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## wmn1

lifeistooshort said:


> Fair enough, there certainly is some court bias toward women.
> 
> This guy was a victim of his little but his own d0uchbaggery.
> 
> I think the bias will change but like all social change its slow.
> 
> One thing men can do to really push this is stop buying into the idea that it's their job to provide, their career should always take precedence, and child care should fall disproportionately to women.
> 
> And look for a woman who is career minded and support that.
> 
> Once you establish financial equality the favoring of women will go away.
> 
> I think a lot of men don't understand how they perpetuate this by focusing on the
> physical and little to financial.
> 
> This guy is perpetuating this right now. ....if these kids are his he doesn't even want any custody so he can do him. The default assumption being that they're her job.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree


----------



## kenmoore14217

*"Yeah right? I swear it wasn't my motivation but I been reading up on CR and it seems its not a bad place to meet a young Tica. I'll admit that the thought has entered my mind more than once. "*

always an upside >


----------



## Mclane

americansteve said:


> Not only does adultery not figure into distribution of assets and spousal support, even bringing it up (at least in Indiana) is a misdemeanor offense.


I did a quick search on Indiana divorce because I found your post to be questionable, and I found that judges can and often will consider adultery when making awards of assets and spousal support. 

No clue what you mean about "bringing it up" is a misdemeanor. 

_In fact, Indiana judges can consider marital misconduct like adultery when making decisions about alimony._

From here:

Adultery in Indiana: Does Cheating Affect Alimony? | DivorceNet.com


----------



## TDSC60

Mclane said:


> I did a quick search on Indiana divorce because I found your post to be questionable, and I found that judges can and often will consider adultery when making awards of assets and spousal support.
> 
> No clue what you mean about "bringing it up" is a misdemeanor.
> 
> _In fact, Indiana judges can consider marital misconduct like adultery when making decisions about alimony._
> 
> From here:
> 
> Adultery in Indiana: Does Cheating Affect Alimony? | DivorceNet.com


In North Carolina, if adultery is proven or admitted, it means zero or reduced spousal support. At least that is how it was two years ago. May have changed by now.


----------



## higgsb

@Mclane



> I did a quick search on Indiana divorce because I found your post to be questionable, and I found that judges can and often will consider adultery when making awards of assets and spousal support.
> 
> No clue what you mean about "bringing it up" is a misdemeanor.


You may have done a "quick search" but I consulted a lawyer and unfortunately, you are wrong. Indiana is a no-fault divorce state and adultery does not effect spousal support or distribution of assets. The fact that she let a felon sex offender near my daughters could be used to my advantage if I wanted custody but that wasn't an issue for me.

If during the divorce proceedings, I were to say my wife had an affair with Donald Duck (not the AP real name) I would be guilty of a misdemeanor offence.

Its even worse and the case of Dan Brewington is an example. If I were to setup a blog criticizing the judge or the IMPD, I could be arrested for a type of harassment even if I made no threats and everything I said was 100% true. Mr. Brewington setup such a blog after he lost a custody battle and criticized the judge in that blog. He spent 5 years in jail.

I'm telling you and I know its hard to accept after having been brought up on the fairy tales they teach us in school but America is not the land of the free we all think it is and we really don't have the constitutional right guaranteed us in the constitution. They are more like provisional rights that can be withdrawn with the stroke of a pen in an exparte hearing.


----------



## sidney2718

Decorum said:


> Thanks to lawyers the laws of physics hardly apply in the courtroom anymore.
> In the courtroom it's an alternate reality.
> 
> Use some common sense here, a polygraph can change the course of an entire investigation because the investigators understand the real world implications of passing or failing it.
> 
> Its not 100% but combined with other facts it a very useful tool.
> 
> Her refusal is significant, dont live in denial.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is like asking a guy if he is still beating his wife. It is NOT a significant tool which is why police departments don't use it and courts in the US will not allow polygraph results to be used.

Sure, some wives don't know this and so polygraphing them may lead to parking lot confessions. But most folks these days know about Google and it will tell you all you need to know about polygraphs.

We have seen the effect of polygraphs here. If the BS thinks he was betrayed, then the polygraph agreeing with him means that the WS is guilty. And the polygraph disagreeing with him means that the result is an error and the WS is guilty. 

See why it is useless as a tool?


----------



## sidney2718

lifeistooshort said:


> He said he wasn't interested in any kind of custody, only visitation. I'm left to assume it's because raising kids is incompatible with running around the world.
> 
> But maybe that's not it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Unless he's an unfit father (and there is no evidence for that) he will get visitation rights.


----------



## sidney2718

americansteve said:


> @Decorum
> 
> As far as the courts go and our criminal justice system in general, I've lost all respect since this started. Not only does adultery not figure into distribution of assets and spousal support, even bringing it up (at least in Indiana) is a misdemeanor offense. You are also correct about polygraphs IMHO - she's hiding something. I'm guessing either multiple affairs or her timeline is complete nonsense or both.


I don't think this is right. In states where adultery is admitted you would have to have a court trial (expensive) and prove beyond a reasonable doubt that adultery existed. Very few have that kind of evidence. Yes, they were seen entering the motel together. What does that prove? You have VAR evidence but it can be interpreted in several ways.

We had decades of this kind of crap. Finally, the legislatures of the various states decided that the cheaper, faster alternative was the no-fault divorce. You want to divorce her? Just file.


----------



## sidney2718

TDSC60 said:


> In North Carolina, if adultery is proven or admitted, it means zero or reduced spousal support. At least that is how it was two years ago. May have changed by now.


Yeah, but there would still be child support.


----------



## Maxo

sidney2718 said:


> I don't think this is right. In states where adultery is admitted you would have to have a court trial (expensive) and prove beyond a reasonable doubt that adultery existed. Very few have that kind of evidence. Yes, they were seen entering the motel together. What does that prove? You have VAR evidence but it can be interpreted in several ways.
> 
> We had decades of this kind of crap. Finally, the legislatures of the various states decided that the cheaper, faster alternative was the no-fault divorce. You want to divorce her? Just file.


No. Beyond a reasonable doubt is the standard of proof in criminal matters. It is most likely preponderance of the evidence or clear and convincing,one of these two standards, preponderance seems most likely.


----------



## ThePheonix

since divorce is a civil matter.


----------



## Rookie4

Maxo said:


> No. Beyond a reasonable doubt is the standard of proof in criminal matters. It is most likely preponderance of the evidence or clear and convincing,one of these two standards, preponderance seems most likely.


Sidney is right. In most states, marital fidelity is irrelevant. Even in those states which have adultery as a "fault" it is almost impossible to prove by direct evidence " confession or eye witness evidence". In those states it is possible to "prove" infidelity by circumstantial evidence. But you are dead wrong about preponderance of evidence, that is a meaningless concept. What occurs is that additional grounds will be added to the adultery grounds. 
Something like, "Alienation of affection" or "Cruel treatment" , which are far easier to prove. Part of the difficulties involved are the Privacy issues which make it very hard to get hotel or credit card records. Also another determining factor is the possibility of any other interpretation. If a spouse is engaging in PDA's or any other activity which can have either an innocent or a guilty interpretation, the matter will not be proven.
Again, you don't have to believe me, look it up for yourselves. Just about any Legal website will tell you the same thing. This is also the reason that the idea of a "parking lot confession" to avoid a polygraph is stupid. If you as BS's can find out this info, so can the cheater. Nobody believes that polygraphs are worth anything, except the people who give them.:wink2:


----------



## Maxo

The standard of proof is not"beyond a reasonable doubt" in family court or civil matters. That is the standard in criminal cases only,as far as I know.
In those states wher infidelity is relevant,they use a lower standard.


----------



## Mclane

americansteve said:


> You may have done a "quick search" but I consulted a lawyer and unfortunately, you are wrong. Indiana is a no-fault divorce state and adultery does not effect spousal support or distribution of assets.


You cannot know that I'm wrong based on your consultation with one attorney. All you know is that my findings differ from those you received from the attorney you consulted with. One thing you will find if you do your homework is that some attorneys are incompetant, others are just plain lazy, and many of them are wrong about the facts and the laws in the state in which they practice, as unbelievable as that may sound.

Indiana being a no fault state has no connection with the issue we are disputing here. No fault simply means a couple can file for divorce without alleging a fault by the other, nothing more. 

The site I referenced was divorcenet.com which obtains its facts from many lawyers not just one. It's a reputable site, used by many to research facts for their divorce cases. 

Sure that site could be wrong too but my point is that you don't want to base your divorce strategy on one consult with a single attorney. Get more consultations, do your own research, and come to your own conclusions. 



americansteve said:


> If during the divorce proceedings, I were to say my wife had an affair with Donald Duck (not the AP real name) I would be guilty of a misdemeanor offence.


I haven't found that anywhere, and I took the time to do a more extensive search. Did you get this information solely from that one consult? If so I suggest you get another one and compare the information. 



americansteve said:


> Its even worse and the case of Dan Brewington is an example. If I were to setup a blog criticizing the judge or the IMPD, I could be arrested for a type of harassment even if I made no threats and everything I said was 100% true. Mr. Brewington setup such a blog after he lost a custody battle and criticized the judge in that blog. He spent 5 years in jail.


Criticizing a judge is not the same thing as inferring a spouse is guilty of infidelity and that distinction is not made in your post, it's unclear what he was jailed for. 

Another quick search found this: 

"They were strong words — statements authorities decided crossed the line from free speech into criminal behavior. Brewington was convicted in 2011 of intimidation of a judge, attempted obstruction of justice and perjury."

"The law correctly bars threats of blackmail and physical violence that are made face to face or likely to be carried out, he said. The problem is that it also prohibits statements that threaten to "expose the person threatened to hatred, contempt, disgrace, or ridicule," Volokh said. That's the part that landed Brewington in prison."

Sounds to me like this had nothing to do with accusing a spouse of infidelity and everything about obstruction of justice. From here:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/02/25/indiana-court-free-speech/1946089/



americansteve said:


> I'm telling you and I know its hard to accept after having been brought up on the fairy tales they teach us in school but America is not the land of the free we all think it is and we really don't have the constitutional right guaranteed us in the constitution. They are more like provisional rights that can be withdrawn with the stroke of a pen in an exparte hearing.


Dude I went through a messy contested divorce, I went through 3 different attorneys (I wasn't satisfied with any of them), and at times I was completely appalled at the decisions made by the courts.

I completely agree with you on that one. The courts are inefficient, biased, and there's little chance of getting a fair decision from an over worked under paid judge who might see 50 cases in a given day and doesn't have the time and resources to properly review all the evidence. 

But that's not the point of this particular discussion which is about Indiana laws and whether or not you can be jailed for accusing a spouse of cheating and whether infidelity can affect spousal support payments and as far as I'm concerned the jury is still out on that one.


----------



## wmn1

Mclane said:


> You cannot know that I'm wrong based on your consultation with one attorney. All you know is that my findings differ from those you received from the attorney you consulted with. One thing you will find if you do your homework is that some attorneys are incompetant, others are just plain lazy, and many of them are wrong about the facts and the laws in the state in which they practice, as unbelievable as that may sound.
> 
> Indiana being a no fault state has no connection with the issue we are disputing here. No fault simply means a couple can file for divorce without alleging a fault by the other, nothing more.
> 
> The site I referenced was divorcenet.com which obtains its facts from many lawyers not just one. It's a reputable site, used by many to research facts for their divorce cases.
> 
> Sure that site could be wrong too but my point is that you don't want to base your divorce strategy on one consult with a single attorney. Get more consultations, do your own research, and come to your own conclusions.
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't found that anywhere, and I took the time to do a more extensive search. Did you get this information solely from that one consult? If so I suggest you get another one and compare the information.
> 
> 
> 
> Criticizing a judge is not the same thing as inferring a spouse is guilty of infidelity and that distinction is not made in your post, it's unclear what he was jailed for.
> 
> Another quick search found this:
> 
> "They were strong words — statements authorities decided crossed the line from free speech into criminal behavior. Brewington was convicted in 2011 of intimidation of a judge, attempted obstruction of justice and perjury."
> 
> "The law correctly bars threats of blackmail and physical violence that are made face to face or likely to be carried out, he said. The problem is that it also prohibits statements that threaten to "expose the person threatened to hatred, contempt, disgrace, or ridicule," Volokh said. That's the part that landed Brewington in prison."
> 
> Sounds to me like this had nothing to do with accusing a spouse of infidelity and everything about obstruction of justice. From here:
> 
> Indiana high court asked to review jailed blogger case
> 
> 
> 
> Dude I went through a messy contested divorce, I went through 3 different attorneys (I wasn't satisfied with any of them), and at times I was completely appalled at the decisions made by the courts.
> 
> I completely agree with you on that one. The courts are inefficient, biased, and there's little chance of getting a fair decision from an over worked under paid judge who might see 50 cases in a given day and doesn't have the time and resources to properly review all the evidence.
> 
> But that's not the point of this particular discussion which is about Indiana laws and whether or not you can be jailed for accusing a spouse of cheating and whether infidelity can affect spousal support payments and as far as I'm concerned the jury is still out on that one.


I agree. I don't believe that mentioning the affair is a crime.

I also do believe that divorce courts suck and are biased.


----------



## Maxo

It is absurd to think a state would attempt to criminalize mentioning infidelity. That would never withstand constitutional scrutiny,IMO.


----------



## higgsb

> It is absurd to think a state would attempt to criminalize mentioning infidelity. That would never withstand constitutional scrutiny,IMO.


You know I did misspeak on that.
It's a misdemeanor offense to mention the affair partner, not to mention the infidelity. You won't get jailed for it, you'll get fined.


----------



## Decorum

sidney2718 said:


> This is like asking a guy if he is still beating his wife. It is NOT a significant tool which is why police departments don't use it and courts in the US will not allow polygraph results to be used.
> 
> Sure, some wives don't know this and so polygraphing them may lead to parking lot confessions. But most folks these days know about Google and it will tell you all you need to know about polygraphs.
> 
> We have seen the effect of polygraphs here. If the BS thinks he was betrayed, then the polygraph agreeing with him means that the WS is guilty. And the polygraph disagreeing with him means that the result is an error and the WS is guilty.
> 
> See why it is useless as a tool?





Rookie4 said:


> Sidney is right...
> 
> Again, you don't have to believe me, look it up for yourselves. Just about any Legal website will tell you the same thing. This is also the reason that the idea of a "parking lot confession" to avoid a polygraph is stupid. If you as BS's can find out this info, so can the cheater. Nobody believes that polygraphs are worth anything, except the people who give them.:wink2:


Ha ha ha Sidney it is ironic that of all posters you bring up the topic of useless tools.

Look I stopped reading your posts a long time ago. To me it was like unclogging a drain, a gooey mess, so if its not my drain I'm not going to mess with it.

In this case the new notification system on TAM sent me a notice, yuk!

So to be clear I dont read your posts. This is my one courtesy reply (not go be repeated).

And it is the rank temeirty of this type of ignorant, ill-informed, sweeping statement you made above that precipitated this.

Until my unfortunate decline to Kentucky 3 years ago I lived in Indiana for over 20 years. Facts are many state and local police agencies, as well as federal investigative agencies utilize PG's. So no, you are wrong!

In fact the procedurd for becomming a State Trooper in Indiana requires a PG.

Here, allow me, look it up...
ISP: Frequently Asked Questions - Becoming a Trooper

Rookie- Ditto!

.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Maxo

americansteve said:


> You know I did misspeak on that.
> It's a misdemeanor offense to mention the affair partner, not to mention the infidelity. You won't get jailed for it, you'll get fined.


You need to double check this,as well. Seems far fetched. I doubt your attorney is right.


----------



## Mclane

Maxo said:


> You need to double check this,as well. Seems far fetched. I doubt your attorney is right.


Yes it does sound far fetched. Now if you go on a rampage and publicaly slander the affair partner and damage their reputation you could be liable just like you could be liable if you did damage to someone who was not an affair partner.


----------



## Maxo

Mclane said:


> Yes it does sound far fetched. Now if you go on a rampage and publicaly slander the affair partner and damage their reputation you could be liable just like you could be liable if you did damage to someone who was not an affair partner.


As long as he speaks the truth and can prove it, no slander or libel.


----------



## higgsb

> You know I did misspeak on that.
> 
> It's a misdemeanor offense to mention the affair partner, not to mention the infidelity. You won't get jailed for it, you'll get fined.


No need to double check - it's the law of the land in Indiana. It might also be law that you can't bring an affair up period - I'm just not sure about that but 100% sure: if you state the name of the AP during divorce proceedings in Indiana, you are guilty of a misdemeanor and subject to a $500 fine. No question about it. I know its hard to accept these truths after a life time of fairy tales but that's how it is.


----------



## Maxo

americansteve said:


> No need to double check - it's the law of the land in Indiana. It might also be law that you can't bring an affair up period - I'm just not sure about that but 100% sure: if you state the name of the AP during divorce proceedings in Indiana, you are guilty of a misdemeanor and subject to a $500 fine. No question about it. I know its hard to accept these truths after a life time of fairy tales but that's how it is.


 I would check with the ACLu. That sounds implausible.


----------



## Mclane

americansteve said:


> No need to double check - it's the law of the land in Indiana. It might also be law that you can't bring an affair up period - I'm just not sure about that but 100% sure: if you state the name of the AP during divorce proceedings in Indiana, you are guilty of a misdemeanor and subject to a $500 fine. No question about it. I know its hard to accept these truths after a life time of fairy tales but that's how it is.


Right. Because an attorney told you this during a free consultation. 

Got it.



Maxo said:


> As long as he speaks the truth and can prove it, no slander or libel.


Well sure, but how does a person speaking what they know to be the truth about another person also know they'll be able to proof it in a court of law?


----------



## higgsb

@Maxo



> I would check with the ACLu. That sounds implausible.


It's true - I was told by a lawyer in a face to face consult and I was by several lawyers in phone consults. You cannot name the AP during divorce proceedings. I know how shocking it is after a life time of fairy tales like freedom of speech and due process but the fact is, these are not real rights. They are provisional and can be undone by the stroke of a pen in an ex-parte hearing that you won't even know is taking place.


----------



## higgsb

> No need to double check - it's the law of the land in Indiana. It might also be law that you can't bring an affair up period - I'm just not sure about that but 100% sure: if you state the name of the AP during divorce proceedings in Indiana, you are guilty of a misdemeanor and subject to a $500 fine. No question about it. I know its hard to accept these truths after a life time of fairy tales but that's how it is.
> 
> Right. Because an attorney told you this during a free consultation.
> 
> Got it.


I consulted several lawyers but you know what @Mclane - believe what you want. Like they say, ignorance is bliss.


----------



## Maxo

Mclane said:


> Right. Because an attorney told you this during a free consultation.
> 
> Got it.
> 
> 
> 
> Well sure, but how does a person speaking what they know to be the truth about another person also know they'll be able to proof it in a court of law?


 With evidence. Same as any defense in a lawsuit. Same with prosecuting a claim as a plaintiff,too. You produce evidence.
As a practical mateer,it is highly unlikely that an AP would sue,as he or she wants to avoid scrutiny.


----------



## Mclane

Maxo said:


> With evidence. Same as any defense in a lawsuit. Same with prosecuting a claim as a plaintiff,too. You produce evidence.
> As a practical mateer,it is highly unlikely that an AP would sue,as he or she wants to avoid scrutiny.


My point being, that even with evidence, no lawsuit is completely predictable. 

So you could say all sorts of terrible things about a person, being smug in the fact that you have the truth and what you believe to be irrefutable evidence, and then you get sued and the evidence is deemed inadmissable, or it's simply not found to be sufficient proof even though you thought it was, or the judge or jury simply makes a ridiculous decision that defies logic and common sense, and there you are with your ass hung out to try.


----------



## Maxo

Maxo said:


> With evidence. Same as any defense in a lawsuit. Same with prosecuting a claim as a plaintiff,too. You produce evidence.
> As a practical mateer,it is highly unlikely that an AP would sue,as he or she wants to avoid scrutiny.


Now,you are fudging. You said a lawyer,not lawyers,originally.
One of the lines I used to use in closings was " shifting sands do not a firm foundation make."
This is BS.


----------



## Mclane

americansteve said:


> I consulted several lawyers but you know what @Mclane - believe what you want. Like they say, ignorance is bliss.


Sounds like you misunderstood what you were told. It makes sense that you cannot "name" a possible affair partner in moving papers related to a divorce petition. That's quite a stretch from it being a misdemeanor. 

But I understand, you're going through a lot right now and you're not thinking clearly so things will be misinterpreted. 

I got no dog in this fight, doesn't make one bit of difference to me whether what you say is right or wrong, I'm just pointing out what seem to be inconsistencies with no basis in fact. I searched quite a bit and found absolutely nothing that supports what you claim to have been told by numerous attorneys.


----------



## Maxo

Mclane said:


> My point being, that even with evidence, no lawsuit is completely predictable.
> 
> So you could say all sorts of terrible things about a person, being smug in the fact that you have the truth and what you believe to be irrefutable evidence, and then you get sued and the evidence is deemed inadmissable, or it's simply not found to be sufficient proof even though you thought it was, or the judge or jury simply makes a ridiculous decision that defies logic and common sense, and there you are with your ass hung out to try.


It is the chance one takes,but,a remote one if you have your facts right. And,realistically,if you do have them right,no AP is going to wamt public scrutiny.


----------



## higgsb

@Maxo



> With evidence. Same as any defense in a lawsuit. Same with prosecuting a claim as a plaintiff,too. You produce evidence.
> As a practical mateer,it is highly unlikely that an AP would sue,as he or she wants to avoid scrutiny.


My evidence is text messages between the POSOM and my wife; I guess he could deny it is him but he hasn't bothered. I've been blazing this guy for 10 mnths now and only once had law enforcement get on me and that was because I kept calling the restaurant he works at and telling whoever answered that they were working with a sex offender. The cop was only concerned that I was interfering with the business and didn't seem to give a sh!t about the POS. I then called restaurants in the downtown Indy area and told them all the POS was a sex offender and to never hire him. I contacted well over 100 restaurants and I never got any blowback from that. Of course I contacted his wife, mom, brother and cousins. Again, never heard anything except from the wife, who was a total doormat. That's how I found out he was serial cheater. The POSOM lives in Carmel so I contacted schools and churches in Carmel exposing him as a sex offender and serial cheater and again nothing happened. Just last week I sent his mom an email asking her what she or her husband did to turn her son into a felon sex offender.


----------



## Maxo

americansteve said:


> @Maxo
> 
> 
> 
> My evidence is text messages between the POSOM and my wife; I guess he could deny it is him but he hasn't bothered. I've been blazing this guy for 10 mnths now and only once had law enforcement get on me and that was because I kept calling the restaurant he works at and telling whoever answered that they were working with a sex offender. The cop was only concerned that I was interfering with the business and didn't seem to give a sh!t about the POS. I then called restaurants in the downtown Indy area and told them all the POS was a sex offender and to never hire him. I contacted well over 100 restaurants and I never got any blowback from that. Of course I contacted his wife, mom, brother and cousins. Again, never heard anything except from the wife, who was a total doormat. That's how I found out he was serial cheater. The POSOM lives in Carmel so I contacted schools and churches in Carmel exposing him as a sex offender and serial cheater and again nothing happened. Just last week I sent his mom an email asking her what she or her husband did to turn her son into a felon sex offender.



Truth is an absolute defense to defamation here in the US. It is different in the UK, I have heard.


----------



## honcho

americansteve said:


> @Maxo
> 
> 
> 
> It's true - I was told by a lawyer in a face to face consult and I was by several lawyers in phone consults. You cannot name the AP during divorce proceedings. I know how shocking it is after a life time of fairy tales like freedom of speech and due process but the fact is, these are not real rights. They are provisional and can be undone by the stroke of a pen in an ex-parte hearing that you won't even know is taking place.


You may not be able to mention a possible affair partner in court but your lawyer can certainly subpoena the person and question them in court. 

In today's reality both lawyers and judges want to avoid the infidelity angle at all possible costs or any other "at fault" reason for divorce or factors in asset division/payments etc. Even in states where you can use fault it's extremely rare as nobody wants to deal with it. 

In my state infidelity is still on the books as a felony....No one cares. If your concerned about a possible 500 buck fine well by the time you have gotten your divorce to trial you will have spent so much in legal fees the 500 bucks is a blip on the radar and it's highly unlikely you get the fine anyway.

Indiana is not a bad state to get divorced in, they limit alimony to 3 years I believe if that is a factor in your possible divorce. While your gone to another country she could in theory move to a different state which has much more unfavorable laws to you. In the realm of divorce waiting is usually a losing proposition. Either you want to divorce or you dont. What do you want to do?


----------



## Rookie4

Decorum said:


> Ha ha ha Sidney it is ironic that of all posters you bring up the topic of useless tools.
> 
> Look I stopped reading your posts a long time ago. To me it was like unclogging a drain, a gooey mess, so if its not my drain I'm not going to mess with it.
> 
> In this case the new notification system on TAM sent me a notice, yuk!
> 
> So to be clear I dont read your posts. This is my one courtesy reply (not go be repeated).
> 
> And it is the rank temeirty of this type of ignorant, ill-informed, sweeping statement you made above that precipitated this.
> 
> Until my unfortunate decline to Kentucky 3 years ago I lived in Indiana for over 20 years. Facts are many state and local police agencies, as well as federal investigative agencies utilize PG's. So no, you are wrong!
> 
> In fact the procedurd for becomming a State Trooper in Indiana requires a PG.
> 
> Here, allow me, look it up...
> ISP: Frequently Asked Questions - Becoming a Trooper
> 
> Rookie- Ditto!
> 
> .
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


For a poster who is "uninterested" you seem to be going out of your way to create drama. My suggestion is that you stick to the topic and attempt to help the OP with his questions about polygraphs and divorce or reconciliation issues, instead of trying to pick arguments about non-topic issues of your own creation. Personally speaking I could give a rat's ass about the qualifications of an Indiana State Trooper. The fact is that in no (zero) (zilch) (nada) jurisdictions, are polygraphs admissible as evidence. As a human resource/hiring tool, many companies and organizations use them....but you cannot be terminated because of the evidence gained from a polygraph. You WILL be sued. 
Check your facts , before you try to argue with your betters.


----------



## Rookie4

OP, for what it is worth, you need to contact a high quality divorce attorney, to learn about your options. It may seem like a lot of money, but it is better than spending $400.00 or more on a polygraph , which has no value. From your posts, it doesn't seem as if your wife is a stupid person, and she would have to be stupid to take a polygraph. I would bet a lot that she is as aware of the drawbacks of a poly , as you are. Good Luck.


----------



## Maxo

Rookie4 said:


> For a poster who is "uninterested" you seem to be going out of your way to create drama. My suggestion is that you stick to the topic and attempt to help the OP with his questions about polygraphs and divorce or reconciliation issues, instead of trying to pick arguments about non-topic issues of your own creation. Personally speaking I could give a rat's ass about the qualifications of an Indiana State Trooper. The fact is that in no (zero) (zilch) (nada) jurisdictions, are polygraphs admissible as evidence. As a human resource/hiring tool, many companies and organizations use them....but you cannot be terminated because of the evidence gained from a polygraph. You WILL be sued.
> Check your facts , before you try to argue with your betters.


You need remediai reading comprehension help.
Did you win the powerball to acquire your alleged wealth?
Please stay on topic.


----------



## higgsb

I been watching ID Discovery a lot lately and it's amazing just how frequently infidelity leads to violence. What's really disturbing to me is how often the BS is put in danger by the WS affair.

Anyway, I just watched the story of Cora Caro. She found out her POS husband was having an affair and to get back at him, she killed 3 of her 4 children. So me leaving a pregnant wife and 2 kids because of my wife's affair is not so bad, especially since I'll be providing support; it doesn't make me a bad guy at all.

In fact, I'll take it a step further and say I'm actually a pretty cool guy. I recently watched the case of Rob Taglianetti, a fellow Italian American, who discovered his slvt wife was having an affair with a superintendent of schools. He drove 500 miles and shot the POSOM in head: good for him! But now he'll spend the rest of his life in jail. He takes a life out and he rots in jail. 

Whereas I, a life-giver, get my slvt wife pregnant and now I'm going to Costa Rica in less than 3 months. I bring a life in and I get to live in a paradise.

I guess its all how you look at things.


----------



## blahfridge

OP, I get that you are angry with your wife and as a BS, I sympathize with the confusion and panic that led you 
to hysterical bonding and the resultant pregnancy. 

But it's somewhat disturbing how disconnected and callous you seem to be about this new baby. Perhaps I'm reading you wrong, but you seem to almost revel in the fact that you are leaving your unborn child behind so that your wife will be forced to fend for herself during the rest of the pregnancy and birth. 

A woman, even a cheating woman, needs the father of her child around during that difficult time. How will you feel if something goes wrong and you aren't there to help? Forget about your cheating wife for now, what about the baby? And the rest of your children, for that matter. A new baby puts a huge strain on the entire family. So while all of them are going through this, you are just going to be frolicking with some new girl in CS? Forgive me again if I am reading you wrong.


----------



## higgsb

@blahfridge



> Perhaps I'm reading you wrong, but you seem to almost revel in the fact that you are leaving your unborn child behind so that your wife will be forced to fend for herself during the rest of the pregnancy and birth.


I'll be financially supporting her and it's not like I'm leaving her in a jungle - it's just boring old Indianapolis, Indiana. She's due Nov 1st and my mom said she'll come the last week of October and I get 1-month Winter break for the month of December so the I think she should be fine for delivery and the weeks after.

Yes, I do worry to be honest but to maintain my resolve, I all need to do is read through the texts I discovered and I'm immediately determined to follow through with this plan.

One other thing to keep in mind - she's more than welcome to join me in Costa Rica.


----------



## sidney2718

Maxo said:


> No. Beyond a reasonable doubt is the standard of proof in criminal matters. It is most likely preponderance of the evidence or clear and convincing,one of these two standards, preponderance seems most likely.


You may well be right. But it is still a very expensive way to go and "common sense" things may not be enough. I'm talking about things like e-mail messages and so on.

In some states this is taken care of by having what amounts to a trial (I don't think there is a jury though) to which one may subpoena people who must answer questions under oath.

But this is at times a double edged sword and the accuser may be asked, under oath, how he got the information. If it was by illegal means (which varies from state to state) it may not be admissible at all.


----------



## sidney2718

ThePheonix said:


> since divorce is a civil matter.


Yes, but adultery may not be. Some state laws are strange.


----------



## sidney2718

americansteve said:


> No need to double check - it's the law of the land in Indiana. It might also be law that you can't bring an affair up period - I'm just not sure about that but 100% sure: if you state the name of the AP during divorce proceedings in Indiana, you are guilty of a misdemeanor and subject to a $500 fine. No question about it. I know its hard to accept these truths after a life time of fairy tales but that's how it is.


I agree with you. I followed the link you gave and read what it said. I believe that you have correctly cited it. The reason given is that you may be accusing an innocent man of a serious action.

But I'm not sure it means more than that. You could refer to the OM as "Mr. X" or something like that. Just don't use his name.


----------



## sidney2718

americansteve said:


> @Maxo
> 
> 
> 
> It's true - I was told by a lawyer in a face to face consult and I was by several lawyers in phone consults. You cannot name the AP during divorce proceedings. I know how shocking it is after a life time of fairy tales like freedom of speech and due process but the fact is, these are not real rights. They are provisional and can be undone by the stroke of a pen in an ex-parte hearing that you won't even know is taking place.


Don't get overwrought. Accusing someone of something in open court certainly is not good for his or her reputation and may well cause that person permanent harm.

You can, as I posted above, refer to the person as "Mr. X".


----------



## blahfridge

americansteve said:


> @blahfridge
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps I'm reading you wrong, but you seem to almost revel in the fact that you are leaving your unborn child behind so that your wife will be forced to fend for herself during the rest of the pregnancy and birth.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll be financially supporting her and it's not like I'm leaving her in a jungle - it's just boring old Indianapolis, Indiana. She's due Nov 1st and my mom said she'll come the last week of October and I get 1-month Winter break for the month of December so the I think she should be fine for delivery and the weeks after.
> 
> Yes, I do worry to be honest but to maintain my resolve, I all need to do is read through the texts I discovered and I'm immediately determined to follow through with this plan.
> 
> One other thing to keep in mind - she's more than welcome to join me in Costa Rica.
Click to expand...

Sorry, but the way I see it, following through with your plan right now means punishing your children for your wife's sins. No one forced you to have unprotected sex, you said yourself that it was your doing. A month at home is a drop in the bucket as far as helping a new mother who also has two other young children to care for. Inviting her to go considering the present state of your marriage can only be viewed as a joke. You don't really want her there and I imagine she knows that. Sorry to be harsh, but you seem to be using her cheating as a excuse to leave your family right when they need you the most. I hope you think about the timing of this a little more carefully.


----------



## higgsb

@blahfridge



> Inviting her to go considering the present state of your marriage can only be viewed as a joke. You don't really want her there and I imagine she knows that.


I imagine she can go fvck herself! Like this morning I was up at 5am obsessing over what kind of sex she had with this POS felon sex offender and she was just sleeping away. I don't know how many times I've just woke up like this thinking about sh!t. I honestly don't care if my invitation is a joke or not. I'm serious: she can come if not she can go choke.


----------



## bfree

Excuse me if this has already been discussed but your wife's affair partner was a convicted sex offender and you are fine with giving her what amounts to sole custody?


----------



## Mclane

americansteve said:


> I kept calling the restaurant he works at and telling whoever answered that they were working with a sex offender. The cop was only concerned that I was interfering with the business and didn't seem to give a sh!t about the POS. I then called restaurants in the downtown Indy area and told them all the POS was a sex offender and to never hire him. I contacted well over 100 restaurants and I never got any blowback from that. Of course I contacted his wife, mom, brother and cousins. Again, never heard anything except from the wife, who was a total doormat. That's how I found out he was serial cheater. The POSOM lives in Carmel so I contacted schools and churches in Carmel exposing him as a sex offender and serial cheater and again nothing happened. Just last week I sent his mom an email asking her what she or her husband did to turn her son into a felon sex offender.


 @americansteve

Ok so on one hand you say it's a misdemeanor to mention the OM and here you are slandering the guy all over town and trying to get him fired.

Because he's a "sex offender" as you put it.

Although you want it to be true, bonking some other guys wife doesn't make a guy a sex offender. 

You could be headed for a whole bunch of trouble for messing around with this guys personal life, even though he did it to you. You can't use "he messed up my marriage" as a defense in a slander lawsuit.

Those who say the affair partner is unlikely to sue are underestimating what a person might be capable of if a person is messing around with his employment and virtually every one he knows.

As a separate side issue, I'm going to gently suggest that you are exerting all your resources on the wrong person.

This guy was just some guy your wife had sex with. He didn't force himself on her, she willingly opened her legs and her mouth to his penis. If it wasn't him, it would have been someone else. He didn't make vows with you and then break them in the ultimate act of deception- SHE did.


----------



## higgsb

@bfree



> Excuse me if this has already been discussed but your wife's affair partner was a convicted sex offender and you are fine with giving her what amounts to sole custody?


I'm not sure what your point is but I can assure you, the sex offender is no longer in the picture. On the whole, I think the Indianapolis Metropolitan Police Department and the Prosecutors office in Marion County basically suck but when it came to allegations of possible sexual assault on a minor, they were very thorough. A detective from sex crimes, a counselor from Child Services and the POSOM's probation officer all got involved. Since he was a felon, he had no choice but to submit to a polygraph, the woman from CPS interviewed my daughters and my wife and the sex crimes detective also interviewed the POSOM and warned him to stay away from my family. I'm 100% certain this guy is out of the picture and knows to stay away.

If your point is that my wife has incredibly poor judgement, I agree. I can only hope that she learns from the experience and the next time she decides to suck a d!ck behind my back, she doesn't pick a sex offender. I hope you aren't suggesting that my wife's poor judgement somehow restricts my life. That's would be idiotic; that would be like telling a woman she needs to stay with her abusive husband so that he could never be alone with the kids.


----------



## higgsb

@Mclane



> Ok so on one hand you say it's a misdemeanor to mention the OM.


I said, it is a misdemeanor to mention the name of a spouses AP during divorce proceedings. Blazing the POS and exposing him far and wide outside the courtroom is a different matter.



> Although you want it to be true, bonking some other guys wife doesn't make a guy a sex offender.


He IS a felon sex offender; he was convicted and spent 2 years in prison and is still on probation. I'd put his name here but TAM admin would ban me. Feel free to PM me and I'll gladly give you his name and where and works. Maybe you can call his employer and help blaze him for me. I'd appreciate that.

By the way, his sex crime was he was sending pictures of his junk to 12 year old girls and he was on his way to meet one of those girls. Too bad for him, it was an IMPD cop that he was meeting with. When I talked to his doormat wife about his sex crime, she defended him and said he was only "flirting" with those girls.



> This guy was just some guy your wife had sex with. He didn't force himself on her, she willingly opened her legs and her mouth to his penis. If it wasn't him, it would have been someone else. He didn't make vows with you and then break them in the ultimate act of deception- SHE did.


I 100% agree but this guy deserves whatever I can dish on him because it wasn't some other guy - it was him. As far as my wife goes, trust me, I've punished her in so many ways and now, she has to deal with a new job, two little girls and pregnancy all on her own. Between the her and the POS sex offender, she's been punished more.


----------



## NobodySpecial

americansteve said:


> @Mclane
> I 100% agree but this guy deserves whatever I can dish on him because it wasn't some other guy - it was him. As far as my wife goes, trust me, I've punished her in so many ways and now, she has to deal with a new job, two little girls and pregnancy all on her own. Between the her and the POS sex offender, she's been punished more.


I don't even care that this gets me banned. You are one crazy, sick **** to be more interested in your revenge against these 2 and not caring one teeny iota about the innocent children.


----------



## Rookie4

I guess that this thread has about run it's course. It has descended to the realm of fantasy. Nobody.....but nobody...... can force anybody to take a polygraph. The OP's statement that because the AP is a convicted felon , that he "had no choice" but to submit to a polygraph? Never happen. A forced polygraph would be of Zero value, as it would be completely inaccurate, and it might even be against the law to attempt to coerce one. If you posters are going to talk about this subject, you might want to learn a little about it, instead of heresay. 1. A polygraph cannot, in any jurisdiction in the United States, be forced or coerced on anybody. That is against the law. 2. A polygraph is inadmissible in any court in the USA, as direct evidence, and 3. If it is used to get a "confession" the confession will be disallowed and the case dismissed. And 4. All "evidence" obtained by a polygraph is automatically inadmissible 5. Every single lawyer in America, knows this. 6. Polygraphs are allowed as hiring tools, but even then, they have ZERO LEGAL VALUE. 7. If a polygraph is used to fire an employee, that will be reversed and the employee will be entitled to compensation. These are just some of the facts about this "so called" Lie detector.


----------



## Rookie4

I misspoke, there is one place in the US where Polygraphs work......Hollywood.


----------



## Rookie4

My advice, OP, is to forget about this polygraph nonsense, and take the $300.00 to 500.00 that you would spend, and take your kids on a vacation, somewhere.


----------



## higgsb

@Rookie4



> The OP's statement that because the AP is a convicted felon , that he "had no choice" but to submit to a polygraph? Never happen.


You talk with such certainty of what you are saying, I almost believed you myself. The problem is, it did happen. 

The POSOM is a convicted sex offender still on probation and his probation officer hauled him in and polygraphed him. They wanted to determine if he sexually assaulted my daughters or not.

I think you have been raised on fairy tales rookie. For example, do you really believe you have the right to due process, to face your accuser? Do you honestly believe that you have 1st amendment rights? These can all be taken away with the stroke of a pen and I'm assuming you are an upright and law abiding citizen. Convicted felons, especially sex offenders, have even fewer rights than you do.

But I will admit, I don't know if he was forced to take a polygraph or if he volunteered to take one. The point is, he took a polygraph and according to his probation officer, it indicated that he DID NOT sexually assault my daughters.


----------



## Rookie4

americansteve said:


> @Rookie4
> 
> 
> 
> You talk with such certainty of what you are saying, I almost believed you myself. The problem is, it did happen.
> 
> The POSOM is a convicted sex offender still on probation and his probation officer hauled him in and polygraphed him. They wanted to determine if he sexually assaulted my daughters or not.
> 
> I think you have been raised on fairy tales rookie. For example, do you really believe you have the right to due process, to face your accuser? Do you honestly believe that you have 1st amendment rights? These can all be taken away with the stroke of a pen and I'm assuming you are an upright and law abiding citizen. Convicted felons, especially sex offenders, have even fewer rights than you do.
> 
> But I will admit, I don't know if he was forced to take a polygraph or if he volunteered to take one. The point is, he took a polygraph and according to his probation officer, it indicated that he DID NOT sexually assault my daughters.


I have seen and taken part in administering polygraphs, and have been advised by our legal folks as to the legality of them. You should pay attention. YOU CANNOT FORCE ANYBODY, even a convicted felon, to take a polygraph. Not a parole officer, not a cop, not a judge, not a prosecuting attorney , not child services, not even the Attorney General of the United States, or the Supreme Court....NOBODY or NO organization.......Period.
Look, Dude, if you want to believe Joe Blow down the street, or some second hand urban chatter, or a bunch of yayhoos on the web, that is your business. I am only trying to help. Like I have said before, You don't have to believe ME, I could care less. But you would be better served , instead of making snide comments, to LOOK IT UP FOR YOURSELF.


----------



## higgsb

@Rookie4


> YOU CANNOT FORCE ANYBODY, even a convicted felon, to take a polygraph. Not a parole officer, not a cop, not a judge, not a prosecuting attorney , not child services, not even the Attorney General of the United States, or the Supreme Court....NOBODY or NO organization.......Period.


I appreciate that you are trying to help, I honestly do and for my part, it was a rough night and I am venting. But please read the last paragraph of the text you quoted in your last post: maybe this POS wasn't forced to take a polygraph, in fact I'll 100% concede that he wasn't forced to. My point is, he did take a polygraph and it indicated that he did not sexually assault my daughters. That's all I'm saying.


----------



## Rookie4

americansteve said:


> @Rookie4
> 
> 
> I appreciate that you are trying to help, I honestly do and for my part, it was a rough night and I am venting. But please read the last paragraph of the text you quoted in your last post: maybe this POS wasn't forced to take a polygraph, in fact I'll 100% concede that he wasn't forced to. My point is, he did take a polygraph and it indicated that he did not sexually assault my daughters. That's all I'm saying.


Sokay, Steve, we all have those kinds of nights. I had one myself a couple of days ago.
I would still suggest that you take the kids and get away from the triggers, for a while, even if it's just a long weekend. You would be surprised how much a few days away can mean .


----------



## Mclane

americansteve said:


> I said, it is a misdemeanor to mention the name of a spouses AP during divorce proceedings.


I still doubt the veracity of this statement, I've found nothing at all that supports naming another person as an AP during divorce proceedings in Indiana is a misdemeanor and you have provided none. I believe that YOU believe it but I think you're probably mistaken. I can see why writing the name of the AP in divorce moving papers might cause the judge to reject the motion and force it to be corrected but that's a far cry from committing a crime and I can't imagine in my wildest imagination that if the name of an affair partner was produced during trial testimony or during a deposition that the witness would be charged with a crime. It defies reason.



americansteve said:


> Blazing the POS and exposing him far and wide outside the courtroom is a different matter...
> He IS a felon sex offender; he was convicted and spent 2 years in prison and is still on probation.


My mistake, I stand corrected, he's a convicted sex offender and you are simply spreading the word as it has been so proven by the courts. 




americansteve said:


> I'd put his name here but TAM admin would ban me. Feel free to PM me and I'll gladly give you his name and where and works. Maybe you can call his employer and help blaze him for me. I'd appreciate that.


No thanks, I recognize him, we were cellmates for 2 years, swapped a lot of stories. Just kidding.




americansteve said:


> When I talked to his doormat wife about his sex crime, she defended him and said he was only "flirting" with those girls.


She was in complete denial. No surprise, it happens all the time, she's unwilling, incapable of dealing with the truth because she fully believes she cannot live without him and cannot acknowledge the mistake she made in committing herself to him for the rest of her life. But that's not your problem, it's hers.




americansteve said:


> I 100% agree but this guy deserves whatever I can dish on him because it wasn't some other guy - it was him.


Knock yourself out. Or knock him out. Like I said, your wife made herself available to him. Heck he could have been told anything.

When I was online dating, I was intimate with a few women who were married but as they put it "separated and divorcing". As far as I knew, that was the truth but they could have been cheating on clueless husbands for all I know. Should I be subject to the same sort of abuse you're inflicting on the other man as a result of my innocent actions? You really don't need to answer, it's just something to think about.




americansteve said:


> As far as my wife goes, trust me, I've punished her in so many ways and now, she has to deal with a new job, two little girls and pregnancy all on her own. Between the her and the POS sex offender, she's been punished more.


Great. So find something more productive to do, and start moving forwards instead of lingering in the past. 

It's not doing you any good. And you don't know how far this convicted felon will let himself be pushed before he hits back. If you chase a squirrel it usually runs, but if you stick your hand in it's hole and it's got nowhere left to run, it will probably bite you.


----------



## Starstarfish

Steve posted in his other thread he had a first marriage that ended for the same reason - after children the whole jet setting and having a part time spouse thing got old for the wife. He's already done this once.

So I think the infidelity is secondary here. He has once before left his children behind and gotten divorced to continue the international teacher thing. 

The infidelity no doubt complicates things and leads to more anger, but I don't think the outcome would be different. He feels calling it in and sending checks for his own children is a sacrifice for the greater good or because the wife deserves to be punished or because he deserves his dreams. Some truth is somewhere in there.

In the end, no he doesn't really seem to have any emotions of caring for the kids. He'll see them on breaks (if he actually comes home, how are you going to afford all that airfare?) and things will be great. When the kids ask, no doubt he can lovingly explain how his dreams just didn't include children interfering with them. 

Sounds awesome, really.


----------



## becareful

The standard for what constitutes a good person has definitely been lowered if Steve thinks he's a pretty good guy. He's lost his first wife due to his job and is doing it again because to be at home for his kids is soooooooo boring.


----------



## Maxo

D


becareful said:


> The standard for what constitutes a good person has definitely been lowered if Steve thinks he's a pretty good guy. He's lost his first wife due to his job and is doing it again because to be at home for his kids is soooooooo boring.


Eh,didn't his wife cheat with a sex offender? Would you stay home with a person like that?


----------



## higgsb

@Mclane



> When I was online dating, I was intimate with a few women who were married but as they put it "separated and divorcing". As far as I knew, that was the truth but they could have been cheating on clueless husbands for all I know. Should I be subject to the same sort of abuse you're inflicting on the other man as a result of my innocent actions? You really don't need to answer, it's just something to think about.


I want to answer that - yes, if it was me I would subject you to the same kind of abuse because your actions would not have been innocent. You knew they were married; you committed adultery. If you would have been sleeping with my wife, I would want my pound of flesh. In previous posts, you have portrayed as this terrible person for not thinking about me kids first but I would never sleep with a married woman. That's just not how my mom raised me.
@Starstarfish



> Steve posted in his other thread he had a first marriage that ended for the same reason - after children the whole jet setting and having a part time spouse thing got old for the wife. He's already done this once.


Is it your point that I'm a fool? Ok, I'm a fool; basically I have been played for a Green card twice but I did get 5 kids out of it. Now I know I'll get sh!t for this but in my Italian-American cultural orientation, that is seen a real blessing. Having kids has inherent value; they give you bragging rights. My genes are securely locked into the next generation, even if I only see them over Summers and the long Christmas break, skype a few times a week, exchange emails. By the way, my exwife and I get along. Whenever I go to Arkansas, I always stop by and we have dinner. She's ok with how things turned out and told my sons straight up that she respected me. She wasn't a slvt though but I'm pretty sure she played me for a Green card. Good for her! And FYI - I see my kids AT LEAST once a year and airfare be damned because I'm all about maintaining relationships with my kids.
@becareful



> ... because to be at home for his kids is soooooooo boring.


I know - right! It's a total life of quiet desperation. Count me out.
@Maxo



> Eh,didn't his wife cheat with a sex offender? Would you stay home with a person like that?


Not only that, they had sex in my bed. Some things that seem minor just bother me to no end. Why not get a hotel? Plus she introduced them to my daughters. They went out to dinner together once, while this POS own kids were subsisting on food stamps. Plus the unprotected sex - why not use condoms? Plus the oral sex, which she never did for me - well, she has since then because I insisted. I'm leaving for CR without a shred of guilt and she's going to have to just deal with it.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Maxo said:


> D
> 
> Eh,didn't his wife cheat with a sex offender? Would you stay home with a person like that?


In a way he's fortunate that his wife cheated. It allows him to focus all attention on that and dodge the fact that he knocks out kids he has no real desire to deal with, and he can be the victim.

The reality is that he needs to stop getting married and having kids.

He's way too selfish to be a father and husband.

Maybe his international kids will help him out when he's old and needs it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mclane

americansteve said:


> I want to answer that - yes, if it was me I would subject you to the same kind of abuse because your actions would not have been innocent. You knew they were married; you committed adultery.


If the marriage is down the tubes, if they're separated and just waiting for the legal process to complete, why wait what could be as long as several years to get back out there? Some of the best sex I had during my separation phase was with married women who stated they were divorcing, who knows maybe one of them WAS your wife. 



americansteve said:


> In previous posts, you have portrayed as this terrible person for not thinking about me kids first but I would never sleep with a married woman. That's just not how my mom raised me.


I think you're confusing me with one of the "gang" members on this thread who are chastising you for your lack of parental responsibility and although I believe I have remained silent on the matter, but ok I'll throw my hat into the bashing ring. You brought 5 children into this world and you don't give a rat's ass about any of them, you're only thinking about yourself and getting revenge on any guys who stuck it in your wife after she was done with you, and I'll simply state that I think you've got your priorities screwed up. 



americansteve said:


> Having kids has inherent value; they give you bragging rights.


What does that even mean? You think it's impressive that you brought 5 children into an already crowded planet that is rapidly being depleted of it's natural resources? Almost anyone can make a baby, that's no amazing feat and nothing to be proud of, athough if you make a baby that becomes a rich or say becomes the president of the United States or is a quarterback in the NFL then yes you have my permission to brag about it. Otherwise you sound like a deadbeat dad who lacks any sort of responsibility which is why you are receiving the ire of many posters on this thread who see you nothing more than a loser who thinks about no one but himself. 



americansteve said:


> My genes are securely locked into the next generation


When you're dead, you're dead, who gives a damn if someone's walking around that looks like you. 



americansteve said:


> my exwife and I get along.


You get along with her fine, but you're going around slandering and trying to beat up any guy who she spread her legs for while she was married to you. Makes perfect sense to me.



americansteve said:


> I see my kids AT LEAST once a year and airfare be damned because I'm all about maintaining relationships with my kids.


You seem to be posting to intentionally inflame with ridiculous posts such as this one which defy reason and common sense. I think it's because you're angry that so many people are responding to you in a negative way and you're on the defense, and I get it, but for your sake I hope you at least listen to what some of these good folks are trying to tell you. 



americansteve said:


> I know - right! It's a total life of quiet desperation. Count me out.


It's so easy for you and other deadbeat dads to produce children and just simply walk away from them because it's not enjoyable to you. Any reason you didn't think of this before injecting your exwife with sperm?



americansteve said:


> Not only that, they had sex in my bed. Some things that seem minor just bother me to no end. Why not get a hotel? Plus she introduced them to my daughters.


Because your wife obviously has a lot of anger and resentment towards you, and after reading your last few posts I understand why. You aren't exactly the easiest sort of person to get along with. You shirk your parental responsibilities, you're selfish with poor anger management, you have boundary issues and you only think about your own needs. That's one heck of a list and that's just for starters. 



americansteve said:


> Plus the oral sex, which she never did for me .


Your wife had unprotected sex with her affair partner, she gave him BJs while not doing it for you (except under duress). If you want to learn something from this entire mess, look at the guy in the mirror and ask him why do you think she did so much more for the other guy than she did for the guy she married? If you don't find your name as part of the answer, you need to ask the guy in the mirror again, and repeat until you start getting the answers you need. The alternative is to live the rest of your life in misery wondering why women keep leaving you and treating other men so much better.


----------



## Wazza

Steve I am curious. Why do you keep having kids if you are going to desert them?


----------



## Mclane

Wazza said:


> Steve I am curious. Why do you keep having kids if you are going to desert them?


He already answered that question.

He wants to brag about locking his genes into the next generation, the more the merrier. 

He is so busy locking in his genes that he forgot to pay attention to the women who is producing all these chiildren so he cannot brag that she's faithful to him or giving him blow jobs or unprotected sex because she's doing it with the guy she's cheating on him with.

See my post about screwed up priorities.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Ether this guy is off the rails selfish and narcissistic or everyone's chain is being yanked.

Doesn't take much of a man to knock out kids and take off. I'm unimpressed with the women who knock out kids by guys like this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## higgsb

@Wazza



> Steve I am curious. Why do you keep having kids if you are going to desert them?


I get the spirit of your question but for the record, I have have never deserted kids or wife. 

Abandonment and Desertion in Divorce - Divorce Source

My first 4 kids were planned - 2 per wife. The fifth child, still in the oven, was an accident. After my wife and I had our second kid, she insisted I use condoms; she was adamant on that point. Then I discovered the affair and found that she was having unprotected sex with this POS. Stupidly, and I could kick myself for this, I basically said if he can have unprotected sex, then I can have unprotected sex and she allowed it. A big mistake but it does serve the purpose of punishment and babies are a blessing so I'm ok with it. No more kids for me though.


----------



## Mclane

lifeistooshort said:


> Ether this guy is off the rails selfish and narcissistic or everyone's chain is being yanked.
> 
> Doesn't take much of a man to knock out kids and take off. I'm unimpressed with the women who knock out kids by guys like this.


Happens all the time. The guys who stick around for their kids after a divorce are seemingly in the minority. It's not always dad's fault, sometimes he's pushed out, or alienated from the kids or just so traumatized that he can't deal with the responsibilities of parenting. 

This guy has a boatload of anger, it's obvious from his posts and how he misdirects it to people that are not the real source of his angst. I think it's the anger thats driving his recent inflammatory posts, which are the cyber equivalent of beating up the guy who bonked his exwife. He's like the guy who comes home from work and kicks the dog because his boss yelled at him. 

As far as his wife goes, she's no gem either. She's a selfish lying cheater of questionable moral character. In a lot of ways they were a good match. No wonder it fell apart.


----------



## Mclane

americansteve said:


> I discovered the affair and found that she was having unprotected sex with this POS. Stupidly, and I could kick myself for this, I basically said if he can have unprotected sex, then I can have unprotected sex and she allowed it.


Steve- "I just found out you were having an affair and bonking the guy without protection. I'm going to beat him up and slander him around town and then you and I are going to have unprotected sex too because it's only fair, until you divorce me. Then we will socialize and have nice dinners whenever I come around town and you will take care of the children full time, except for the 1 day per year that I see them so I can maintain a good relationship with them and brag about locking in my genes"

Wife- "Ok Steve thats a good plan, I wonder why I didn't think of that first".


----------



## Maxo

Mclane said:


> If the marriage is down the tubes, if they're separated and just waiting for the legal process to complete, why wait what could be as long as several years to get back out there? Some of the best sex I had during my separation phase was with married women who stated they were divorcing, who knows maybe one of them WAS your wife.
> 
> 
> 
> I think you're confusing me with one of the "gang" members on this thread who are chastising you for your lack of parental responsibility and although I believe I have remained silent on the matter, but ok I'll throw my hat into the bashing ring. You brought 5 children into this world and you don't give a rat's ass about any of them, you're only thinking about yourself and getting revenge on any guys who stuck it in your wife after she was done with you, and I'll simply state that I think you've got your priorities screwed up.
> 
> 
> 
> What does that even mean? You think it's impressive that you brought 5 children into an already crowded planet that is rapidly being depleted of it's natural resources? Almost anyone can make a baby, that's no amazing feat and nothing to be proud of, athough if you make a baby that becomes a rich or say becomes the president of the United States or is a quarterback in the NFL then yes you have my permission to brag about it. Otherwise you sound like a deadbeat dad who lacks any sort of responsibility which is why you are receiving the ire of many posters on this thread who see you nothing more than a loser who thinks about no one but himself.
> 
> 
> 
> When you're dead, you're dead, who gives a damn if someone's walking around that looks like you.
> 
> 
> 
> You get along with her fine, but you're going around slandering and trying to beat up any guy who she spread her legs for while she was married to you. Makes perfect sense to me.
> 
> 
> 
> You seem to be posting to intentionally inflame with ridiculous posts such as this one which defy reason and common sense. I think it's because you're angry that so many people are responding to you in a negative way and you're on the defense, and I get it, but for your sake I hope you at least listen to what some of these good folks are trying to tell you.
> 
> 
> 
> It's so easy for you and other deadbeat dads to produce children and just simply walk away from them because it's not enjoyable to you. Any reason you didn't think of this before injecting your exwife with sperm?
> 
> 
> 
> Because your wife obviously has a lot of anger and resentment towards you, and after reading your last few posts I understand why. You aren't exactly the easiest sort of person to get along with. You shirk your parental responsibilities, you're selfish with poor anger management, you have boundary issues and you only think about your own needs. That's one heck of a list and that's just for starters.
> 
> 
> 
> Your wife had unprotected sex with her affair partner, she gave him BJs while not doing it for you (except under duress). If you want to learn something from this entire mess, look at the guy in the mirror and ask him why do you think she did so much more for the other guy than she did for the guy she married? If you don't find your name as part of the answer, you need to ask the guy in the mirror again, and repeat until you start getting the answers you need. The alternative is to live the rest of your life in misery wondering why women keep leaving you and treating other men so much better.


As you can see from reading here ( and you, yourself mentioned this) people lie about the state of their marriages and their status re divorce. Thus the need for a bright line rule re never getting involved with anyone who is not single.
Sounds like you were either not aware of this at the time, or willing to take a chance at abusing an innocent husband.
Why do it? There are so many fish in the sea?
I liken it to "reckless disregard" vs mens rea. You still have culpability for taking the risk.


----------



## higgsb

@Mclane



> He is so busy locking in his genes that he forgot to pay attention to the women who is producing all these chiildren so he cannot brag that she's faithful to him or giving him blow jobs or unprotected sex because she's doing it with the guy she's cheating on him with.


Well you can't brag about having a faithful wife either, plus you yourself are an admitted adulterer. I never cheated. And FYI - my slvt wife did wind up giving me a BJ so here I am bragging about it.

@lifeistoshort

PM me and I'll give you the contact info for this POS and you can call him up at his work and ask if this isn't all true.


----------



## Maxo

I doubt Steve's alleged deficiencies played a role in her cheating. Sounds like a green card deal to me. After all, she took up with a convicted sex offender. Think that guy was meeting her emotional needs or whatever she alleges Steve lacked?
Cheating has nothing to do with the deficiencies in the betrayed,IMO. There are just too many other honorable options.


----------



## higgsb

@Mclane



> Steve- "I just found out you were having an affair and bonking the guy without protection. I'm going to beat him up and slander him around town and then you and I are going to have unprotected sex too because it's only fair, until you divorce me. Then we will socialize and have nice dinners whenever I come around town and you will take care of the children full time, except for the 1 day per year that I see them so I can maintain a good relationship with them and brag about locking in my genes"


You are confusing my exwife with my current wife. It's my exwife, who never cheated, that I have dinners with and have maintained a good relationship with.


----------



## higgsb

I just got this email from my new posting in Costa Rica - man I can't wait to go! I'm ready to roll! It's an excellent school, which is clear from how organized they are for new teachers. They have an actual buddy system! I've arrived at jobs where they forgot to meet me at the airport! Anyway, it's been almost 11 months since D-Day and Thank God, it's almost over!



> Hi Steve,
> We are quite excited for you to join us in August. We have a buddy system to support new staff adjust to .... systems as well as to life in Costa Rica. Your academic buddies are (a girl), our visual art teacher who just completed her first year, and (a guy), a longtime bio teacher, head of department, and rainforest guide. They will be able to help you sort out the various nuts and bolts of being a teacher here. Your social buddy is (a guy), teacher of English and TOK and a running fanatic. (Social buddy) can help you navigate Santa Ana and broader surroundings.
> 
> All of your buddies are awesome and can help with anything. Feel free to send them questions! By the way, (HR lady) mom is in the hospital, and she may take a while to get back to you as a result. Let me know if you are concerned about anything.
> 
> Best wishes,
> (Head of School)


----------



## Mclane

Maxo said:


> Thus the need for a bright line rule re never getting involved with anyone who is not single.
> Sounds like you were either not aware of this at the time, or willing to take a chance at abusing an innocent husband.
> Why do it? There are so many fish in the sea?
> I liken it to "reckless disregard" vs mens rea. You still have culpability for taking the risk.


I have no issues with risking inadvertently "abusing an innocent husband". My only risk is wasting a few weeks spending time with a woman who hasn't been forthcoming about the state of her marriage. If she's lying, it will be obvious soon enough. As far as me being somehow culpable another person lying through their teeth about the state of their marriage, I'm going to suggest I have no culpability for the dishonesty of others. If I'm deceived and tricked in some way, that's on them, not me. If some abused husband wanted to paint my name all over town trying to discredit me, my only response would be to shrug my shoulders and say "She presented herself as single, what did I know?"

My philosophy when dating was, she's out there, she's dating, she's willing to give it up to another guy, as far as I'm concerned she's available until proven otherwise. 

If, over time the story doesn't add up, or there are red flags such as me never being invited to her house, or I'm unable to spontaneously reach her in the evenings, that sort of thing, well then I'd be outta there because when I'm dating I'm not just looking for sex I'm looking for a relationship, but again during the first 3 years of my post divorce dating, I wasn't divorced either, I was stuck in the slow moving inefficient legal process and if a woman gave me no reason to think otherwise, and she was the type I was looking for, I'd give her the benefit of the doubt, for at least a short period of time. 

I would never, ever date a woman who stated she was still living with her ex, for "convenience" or for "finances" or to "keep up appearances for the kids.

I was on a second date with a lovely woman, a redhead, a real hottie, most would consider her a great catch but during that second full date when we were really getting to know each other and she was enjoying me running my hand up those sexy thighs and not having any issue with my raging hard on, she casually mentioned she was still with her ex but they lived in "separate areas of the house and had nothing to do with each other". I immediately knew that despite the chemistry and everything else, I would never see this woman again. She chased me for a few weeks after I shut her down but I never looked back.


----------



## Mclane

americansteve said:


> Well you can't brag about having a faithful wife either, plus you yourself are an admitted adulterer. I never cheated


I could brag about having a faithful wife. I just don't because I'm not trying to impress other people like you are.

There was no cheating on either side for the 16 years of marriage. After we legally separated, all bets are off. For all practical purposes once the divorce was filed, we were no longer together and free to do as we pleased. No way I was going to wait 3 or more years for a judge to stamp it final, too much pu$$y out there. 



americansteve said:


> my slvt wife did wind up giving me a BJ so here I am bragging about it.


No one cares. 

If you don't want people to look at you like a sappy doormat, then walk away from your cheating sƖut wife and don't look back. Because right now, people shake their heads and say "the poor guy is begging for a BJ and unprotected sex from his cheating wife because the other guy got it, that's just lame, he should have kicked her to the curb like a real man".




americansteve said:


> PM me and I'll give you the contact info for this POS and you can call him up at his work and ask if this isn't all true.


No one cares.


----------



## Maxo

Mclane said:


> I have no issues with risking inadvertently "abusing an innocent husband". My only risk is wasting a few weeks spending time with a woman who hasn't been forthcoming about the state of her marriage. If she's lying, it will be obvious soon enough. As far as me being somehow culpable another person lying through their teeth about the state of their marriage, I'm going to suggest I have no culpability for the dishonesty of others. If I'm deceived and tricked in some way, that's on them, not me. If some abused husband wanted to paint my name all over town trying to discredit me, my only response would be to shrug my shoulders and say "She presented herself as single, what did I know?"
> 
> My philosophy when dating was, she's out there, she's dating, she's willing to give it up to another guy, as far as I'm concerned she's available until proven otherwise.
> 
> If, over time the story doesn't add up, or there are red flags such as me never being invited to her house, or I'm unable to spontaneously reach her in the evenings, that sort of thing, well then I'd be outta there because when I'm dating I'm not just looking for sex I'm looking for a relationship, but again during the first 3 years of my post divorce dating, I wasn't divorced either, I was stuck in the slow moving inefficient legal process and if a woman gave me no reason to think otherwise, and she was the type I was looking for, I'd give her the benefit of the doubt, for at least a short period of time.
> 
> I would never, ever date a woman who stated she was still living with her ex, for "convenience" or for "finances" or to "keep up appearances for the kids.
> 
> I was on a second date with a lovely woman, a redhead, a real hottie, most would consider her a great catch but during that second full date when we were really getting to know each other and she was enjoying me running my hand up those sexy thighs and not having any issue with my raging hard on, she casually mentioned she was still with her ex but they lived in "separate areas of the house and had nothing to do with each other". I immediately knew that despite the chemistry and everything else, I would never see this woman again. She chased me for a few weeks after I shut her down but I never looked back.


I would never trust someone who represented to me she was still married, but in the process of divorcing. just too many folks lie about that, and, with this knowledge, I would feel it incumbent on me to investigate further. Cheaters lie about their status all the time, and I would feel a duty to a potential betrayed husband to investigate before proceeding.
The trauma and damage to a betrayed spouse would not be worth the risk to me. And, like you ( probably largely due to my appearance and earnings etc.) there were just too many other options available to me:laugh:


----------



## Maxo

lifeistooshort said:


> In a way he's fortunate that his wife cheated. It allows him to focus all attention on that and dodge the fact that he knocks out kids he has no real desire to deal with, and he can be the victim.
> 
> The reality is that he needs to stop getting married and having kids.
> 
> He's way too selfish to be a father and husband.
> 
> Maybe his international kids will help him out when he's old and needs it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


\

Clearly, he is a victim, as many of us are, of betrayal. When did being a victim become something shameful?
As I understand it, his wife reneged on the agreement to travel and be teachers together, then she began cheating with a convicted sex offender, brought the guy to their home to have sex, and introduced him to their kids.
If that is not being victimized, what is? 
I feel bad for the kids that their mom did this to them. If it was me, I would not abandon them , but would divorce and remain nearby. This is just me, but it would not matter to me one bit if they were biologically mine. But, that is just my values and I do not have a monopoly on what is right for another person.
I could , certainly, understand someone not wanting to raise someone else's progeny.
Not clear on the details of the first marriage. Was it a similar deal, someone agreeing to a lifestyle and then reneging? If so, sounds like fraud in the inducement, which vitiates the validity of a contract. IMO.


----------



## Mclane

Maxo said:


> I would never trust someone who represented to me she was still married, but in the process of divorcing.


At the risk of beating a dead horse, I was one of those people, stil married, getting divorced and just waiting for it to become final but not willing to crawl in a hole for several years waiting for an inept legal system to run through it's course.

Why not extend the same courtesy of others?

I never said I trusted them, I didn't, I don't trust anyone completely, but you can still date them and do your investigation and watch for red flags.

Anyway there's not really much more to say about this particular subtopic of dating married people- which is off the original topic anyway and discussed ad nauseum on other threads so I'll bow out. Unless of course someone posts something that merits a response.


----------



## Mclane

Maxo said:


> Clearly, he is a victim, as many of us are, of betrayal. When did being a victim become something shameful?


When the betrayed husband says things like "you blew the other guy and took his unprotected penis into your vagina so I want the same thing!"



Maxo said:


> As I understand it, his wife reneged on the agreement to travel and be teachers together, then she began cheating with a convicted sex offender, brought the guy to their home to have sex, and introduced him to their kids.
> If that is not being victimized, what is?


He was victimized but he perpetuated it by allowing it to continue and going after the other guy while avoiding the real problem which rests with the woman he exchanged vows with. The one who was perfectly fine with giving him unprotected sex and a duty BJ just to shut him up.



Maxo said:


> This is just me, but it would not matter to me one bit if they were biologically mine. But, that is just my values and I do not have a monopoly on what is right for another person.


Your values are respectable. Men who walk away from their children, or only put up with them one day out of a year have values that would be questioned by many. Not that it matters, the Op on this thread can do as he pleases but he has this need to brag so he relies on positive feedback from others and I doubt he'll get very much if any based on him walking out on his children.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Maxo said:


> \
> 
> Clearly, he is a victim, as many of us are, of betrayal. When did being a victim become something shameful?
> As I understand it, his wife reneged on the agreement to travel and be teachers together, then she began cheating with a convicted sex offender, brought the guy to their home to have sex, and introduced him to their kids.
> If that is not being victimized, what is?
> I feel bad for the kids that their mom did this to them. If it was me, I would not abandon them , but would divorce and remain nearby. This is just me, but it would not matter to me one bit if they were biologically mine. But, that is just my values and I do not have a monopoly on what is right for another person.
> I could , certainly, understand someone not wanting to raise someone else's progeny.
> Not clear on the details of the first marriage. Was it a similar deal, someone agreeing to a lifestyle and then reneging? If so, sounds like fraud in the inducement, which vitiates the validity of a contract. IMO.




It's not a reasonable deal to make. Who's going to want to continue this while they're pregnant and have little kids running around? And what if something goes wrong with the pregnancy? Will she be able to get the medical care she needs in Costa Rica? 

By all means DNA test the kids. Nobody should have to support a kid that isn't theirs unless they've legally agreed to do it. 

She has poor judgement and taste in men, no question. And she has not behaved honorably. 

He is an absentee husband and father who has no interest in family life unless it agrees to conform to his wants. He is entitled to this, but he shouldn't be knocking out kids. 

And once you do then life is no longer all about you. But he hasn't received this meno, he has 5 kids but his life is still all about him. 

Moral of the story: if you want to do you then don't have kids. Problem solved.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mclane

lifeistooshort said:


> Moral of the story: if you want to do you then don't have kids.


I realized this only after I raised my 2 daughters to adulthood and after I divorced their mother they had no further use for me except when they had the occasional bill they needed me to pay.

If I know now what I knew then I never would have had kids, I can only imagine the freedom and the extra money I would have had which would have opened up so many possibilities in my life.

This guy wants his freedom and yet he has produced 5 children with absolutely no thought or planning or regard to the consequences of doing so.

"Here's your kid, I supplied the sperm you do the rest". I'll stop by once a year or so but don't expect any more than that, I've got places to go and things to do".

Nice.


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## Maxo

Mclane said:


> When the betrayed husband says things like "you blew the other guy and took his unprotected penis into your vagina so I want the same thing!"
> 
> 
> 
> He was victimized but he perpetuated it by allowing it to continue and going after the other guy while avoiding the real problem which rests with the woman he exchanged vows with. The one who was perfectly fine with giving him unprotected sex and a duty BJ just to shut him up.
> 
> 
> 
> Your values are respectable. Men who walk away from their children, or only put up with them one day out of a year have values that would be questioned by many. Not that it matters, the Op on this thread can do as he pleases but he has this need to brag so he relies on positive feedback from others and I doubt he'll get very much if any based on him walking out on his children.


Well, his actions in insisting on similar sexual activities is not uncommon from what I have read. And, his actions in demanding such do not mean he was still not victimized, initially. I am not sure I see anything wrong with his demanding oral sex as a possible form of restitution. Actually, seems a little light,
As for going after the other guy, I understood he had a valid reason, the potential exposure of the kids to a convicted sex offender was to be avoided.
And, even if that was not the motivation, going after the other guy and dealing with his wife are not mutually exclusive activities.
I do think, before heading of to CR, he should at least confirm his suspicions that his children are not biologically his. 
While I still think, despite their parentage it would be best to stay back and participate in their care and to protect them ( mom, after all , has shown she does not value them), if he is taking the position that if they are not his, he has no obligation, he should , at least, confirm their parentage before leaving.


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## Maxo

Mclane said:


> I realized this only after I raised my 2 daughters to adulthood and after I divorced their mother they had no further use for me except when they had the occasional bill they needed me to pay.
> 
> If I know now what I knew then I never would have had kids, I can only imagine the freedom and the extra money I would have had which would have opened up so many possibilities in my life.
> 
> This guy wants his freedom and yet he has produced 5 children with absolutely no thought or planning or regard to the consequences of doing so.
> 
> "Here's your kid, I supplied the sperm you do the rest". I'll stop by once a year or so but don't expect any more than that, I've got places to go and things to do".
> 
> 
> 
> Nice.


I am sorry your daughters have acted like this. So far, all is good between me and my kids. Maybe that will change. I hope not.


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## Mclane

Maxo said:


> Well, his actions in insisting on similar sexual activities is not uncommon from what I have read.


It might be common but that doesn't make it any less pathetic. Lots of guys simply walk out of the lives of their cheating spouse and don't look back. That's a respectable way to handle it as opposed to begging for scraps because the other guy got it.



Maxo said:


> And, his actions in demanding such do not mean he was still not victimized, initially.


Ok he was victimized, and he's angry. 



Maxo said:


> I understood he had a valid reason, the potential exposure of the kids to a convicted sex offender was to be avoided.


Yes, except that him going after the other man had nothing whatsoever to do with protecting his kids, it was all about revenge and getting even because this guy bonked his wife and got bjs and unprotected sex. The kids may benefit but that was not his intent.



Maxo said:


> And, even if that was not the motivation, going after the other guy and dealing with his wife are not mutually exclusive activities.
> I do think, before heading of to CR, he should at least confirm his suspicions that his children are not biologically his.


Going to the courtroom and dna testing the kids are not mutually exclusive either. 



Maxo said:


> if he is taking the position that if they are not his, he has no obligation, he should , at least, confirm their parentage before leaving.


He wants nothing to do with his children, accept for perhaps one visit per year, regardless of whether or not the children are biologically his, so the whole "he has no obligation" argument is really irrelevant.



Maxo said:


> I am sorry your daughters have acted like this. So far, all is good between me and my kids. Maybe that will change. I hope not.


Divorce changes people, it rips families apart. It doesn't have to, but quite often it does, despite our best intentions. 

I would never willingly walk out of the lives of my children, or limit myself to "once per year" visits, I've been pushed out, I'm not wanted and I can live with myself knowing I tried the best I could but there were factors beyond my control.


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## lifeistooshort

Mclane said:


> I realized this only after I raised my 2 daughters to adulthood and after I divorced their mother they had no further use for me except when they had the occasional bill they needed me to pay.
> 
> If I know now what I knew then I never would have had kids, I can only imagine the freedom and the extra money I would have had which would have opened up so many possibilities in my life.
> 
> This guy wants his freedom and yet he has produced 5 children with absolutely no thought or planning or regard to the consequences of doing so.
> 
> "Here's your kid, I supplied the sperm you do the rest". I'll stop by once a year or so but don't expect any more than that, I've got places to go and things to do".
> 
> Nice.



That's very sad. My parents divorced when I was 18 and I was tight with my father until he passed. 

Life isn't same without him. He used to tell me that he wasn't going to have much money to leave.....i told him that no amount was worth the loss of his company. 

He used to say that without kids he would've had more money and that's true. But he also had me, and I can tell you that his money wouldn't have been by his side as he fought cancer. During his illness he would tell me that he didn't know how people without family faced illness like that. 

But my two sisters are both dirtbags, though one of them did try to help when he was sick. 

Kids are a crap shoot like that, you just never know. 

I hope your kids come around while you're still here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## naiveonedave

lifeistooshort said:


> That's very sad. My parents divorced when I was 18 and I was tight with my father until he passed.
> 
> Life isn't same without him. He used to tell me that he wasn't going to have much money to leave.....i told him that no amount was worth the loss of his company.
> 
> He used to say that without kids he would've had more money and that's true. But he also had me, and I can tell you that his money wouldn't have been by his side as he fought cancer. During his illness he would tell me that he didn't know how people without family faced illness like that.
> 
> But my two sisters are both dirtbags, though one of them did try to help when he was sick.
> 
> Kids are a crap shoot like that, you just never know.
> 
> I hope your kids come around while you're still here.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


can't like this post enough.....


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## lifeistooshort

naiveonedave said:


> can't like this post enough.....


Thank you. I can tell you that if my father had come around once a year not only would we not have been nearly as tight, but I likely wouldn't have been by his side to the extent I was for his illness.

OP thinks simply spreading his DNA has inherent value, but his kids might decide he's a pos that was never around. That's a risk he takes.

I hope his decisions turn out to be worth it for him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## higgsb

@lifeistooshort



> Thank you. I can tell you that if my father had come around once a year not only would we not have been nearly as tight


Lies and misrepresentations - about what I've come to expect from you. It's twice a year, not once - at Christmas and over the Summer - Christmas break is 2 weeks and Summer is 7 weeks.



> but I likely wouldn't have been by his side to the extent I was for his illness.


So I should stay in the off chance that I die from an illness and need to have my kids by my side, is that your logic? First of all, that makes it all about me anyway and second of all, who says they would stay by side even if I did stay? Maybe they'd be like your other two sisters. I think I'll take a sure bet on Costa Rica.


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## Mclane

americansteve said:


> I think I'll take a sure bet on Costa Rica.


I heard there are dinosaurs there that are taking over the island. It was in a movie called Jurassic Park have you seen it?


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## Wazza

americansteve said:


> I get the spirit of your question but for the record, I have have never deserted kids or wife.
> 
> Abandonment and Desertion in Divorce - Divorce Source
> 
> My first 4 kids were planned - 2 per wife. The fifth child, still in the oven, was an accident. After my wife and I had our second kid, she insisted I use condoms; she was adamant on that point. Then I discovered the affair and found that she was having unprotected sex with this POS. Stupidly, and I could kick myself for this, I basically said if he can have unprotected sex, then I can have unprotected sex and she allowed it. A big mistake but it does serve the purpose of punishment and babies are a blessing so I'm ok with it. No more kids for me though.


Sorry about your marriages, but you are where you are. And your decision affects you and your kids but you get a choice, and they don't.

So you can get a job near your kids, or you can follow your dream and get on a plane to Costa Rica. You can't do both right now. But Costa Rica will still be there in the coming years. Your kids, as kids, wont be.

If you get on the plane, when there is no other reason besides your desire to live in another country, the only time you will be even in the same country as your kids is 8 weeks. That's 15% of the year. Even if they get all that time, is 15% a passing grade? 

Explain to me how choosing to live in another country is not abandoning them.


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## lifeistooshort

americansteve said:


> @lifeistooshort
> 
> 
> 
> Lies and misrepresentations - about what I've come to expect from you. It's twice a year, not once - at Christmas and over the Summer - Christmas break is 2 weeks and Summer is 7 weeks.
> 
> 
> 
> So I should stay in the off chance that I die from an illness and need to have my kids by my side, is that your logic? First of all, that makes it all about me anyway and second of all, who says they would stay by side even if I did stay? Maybe they'd be like your other two sisters. I think I'll take a sure bet on Costa Rica.


Oh, twice a year. My mistake, that's completely different. NOT. 

Tell yourself whatever you want, it's no skin off my nose. 

Besides, I've come to understand that you don't actually give a rat's behind about anyone but yourself. 

Good luck justifying your hooray for me an screw you attitude to your kids, I'm sure they'll think your father of the year because you come around as it suits you. 

If you keep telling yourself you're not a selfish, deadbeat father enough you'll convince yourself it's true. I think you'realready there. 

Good luck to you, you'll need it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mclane

lifeistooshort said:


> Good luck justifying your hooray for me an screw you attitude to your kids, I'm sure they'll think your father of the year because you come around as it suits you.


 @lifeistooshort

The cruel irony is that for reasons that to me are unclear, the nice dads that try hard to maintain contact with their children are often pushed away, and the dads that disappear off the face of the earth only to return sporadically are sometimes looked at like a god by their neglected children.


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## lifeistooshort

Mclane said:


> @lifeistooshort
> 
> The cruel irony is that for reasons that to me are unclear, the nice dads that try hard to maintain contact with their children are often pushed away, and the dads that disappear off the face of the earth only to return sporadically are sometimes looked at like a god by their neglected children.


Yes, that is unfortunate. I think my kids dad is an arse but I'd never get in the way of his relationship with them. He's not even been paying support for the last couple of years because he doesn't have any money and it's not in my kids interest for their dad struggle. 

It's very selfish women that keep kids from the dad or alienate them
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mclane

lifeistooshort said:


> He's not even been paying support for the last couple of years because he doesn't have any money and it's not in my kids interest for their dad struggle.


Well he's living off of something, he's gotta eat and sleep somewhere.

I bet if the choice was pay support to the kids which would give them a higher standard of living versus incarceration he'd find that money somehow.


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## higgsb

@Mclane



> I bet if the choice was pay support to the kids which would give them a higher standard of living versus incarceration he'd find that money somehow.


And yet again he brings up incarceration.
What - no mention of jailhouse rape?

You seem to really get off on the idea of men getting locked up and raped. What's up with that?


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## Mclane

americansteve said:


> And yet again he brings up incarceration.
> What - no mention of jailhouse rape?
> 
> You seem to really get off on the idea of men getting locked up and raped. What's up with that?


I think I posted about that on another thread, it's one of my irrational fears, along with a few others.

- becoming paralyzed and confined to a wheelchair and not even being able to swat a fly that lands on my nose and someone who cares for me has to change my diaper
- losing all of my money and becoming homeless and living on the street and eating out of dumpsters and sleeping in a cardboard box
- being locked up for a crime I didn't commit and getting gang-raped or face fʋcked by prison inmates.

I can't explain it but those are my fears thank you for your concern Steve, maybe you're not as bad as you make yourself out to be on this thread.


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## higgsb

@Mclane


> I think I posted about that on another thread, it's one of my irrational fears, along with a few others.
> 
> - becoming paralyzed and confined to a wheelchair and not even being able to swat a fly that lands on my nose and someone who cares for me has to change my diaper
> - losing all of my money and becoming homeless and living on the street and eating out of dumpsters and sleeping in a cardboard box
> - being locked up for a crime I didn't commit and getting gang-raped or face fʋcked by prison inmates.
> 
> I can't explain it but those are my fears thank you for your concern Steve, maybe you're not as bad as you make yourself out to be on this thread


.

My mistake!
I apologize!


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## lifeistooshort

Mclane said:


> Well he's living off of something, he's gotta eat and sleep somewhere.
> 
> I bet if the choice was pay support to the kids which would give them a higher standard of living versus incarceration he'd find that money somehow.


Eh, probably. Fortunately his kids already get a pretty good standard of living because I'm an actuary and my husband also works. My ex is just lazy and unmotivated, and now that he's retired from the military he has no ambition.

He manages to keep up his house with his sister living with him and contributing, but it's by no means a fancy place. It's actually the house we used to share....I sold him my half for a good deal.

But it does put me in the regrettable position of making a huge stink out of it or putting up with it, when we have a pretty good co-parenting relationship. And he knows he's got a sweet deal with me so he's on his best behavior all the time.

I just don't relish the idea of making things difficult for my boys.....I think if I really needed the money things might be different. The boys know he is not ambitious and doesn't pay.....I didn't have to tell them anything. They're and 12 and 15.....old enough to figure things out.


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## Maxo

Personally,I find it no less pathetic than reconciliation. 
As for going after the other man for whatever reason,I find it acceptable. However,I thought I recalled keeping him away from the kids as part of his motivation. Regardless, I think it is perfectly fine to exact revenge. It is fair and just,IMO.
I think it is abhorent that Steve sees his kids so infrequently,if they are his. And,I cannot understand how he has not bonded to even the second set,despite questioning their parentage. We agree,that seems whacked.


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## becareful

Maxo said:


> D
> 
> Eh,didn't his wife cheat with a sex offender? Would you stay home with a person like that?


To be honest, I don't really care about his WW. Divorce her, don't divorce her, I am ambivalent about it either way. I do care that his children will not see their dad for reasons that are totally in his control.


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## Maxo

Exactly. Divorce her but take care of the kids.


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## alexm

Rookie4 said:


> If you already know that he/she is cheating, why do you need to have them admit it? What does their opinions and feelings matter, after the fact? I once caught an employee pilfering the medical supplies, and fired him. Him admitting to it or not was irrelevant.


Sorry, this reply is to something 11 pages ago... :surprise:

I can tell you, in all honesty, that I would love to sit down with my ex wife and get the whole story. What happened was 8, 9 and 10 years ago, and I haven't even spoken to her in about 7.

Why this is the case, I don't honestly know. I stopped being mad over 7 years ago. Not knowing the truth, or the full breadth of what happened hasn't affected my life since. In my head, I know it doesn't matter.

So obviously it's an ego thing. Something that happened to me, by somebody I once loved, and I know maybe 20% of the whole story.

And I want to know. I wouldn't even be mad, and I know that learning what I didn't know wouldn't change anything or affect me positively or negatively. I just want to know.

Totally an ego thing. I got screwed royally. Other people knew. I didn't know. I never got full closure, and not getting full closure sucks.

I don't stay awake at night wondering, or fantasize about getting closure, or anything like that. But it's there, in the back of my mind, WAY back, nagging at me. Part of it is "Why? what did I do to deserve that?" And part of it is "HOW could you have done that?" Again, no anger, no resentment. Just closure.


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## Maxo

alexm said:


> Sorry, this reply is to something 11 pages ago... :surprise:
> 
> I can tell you, in all honesty, that I would love to sit down with my ex wife and get the whole story. What happened was 8, 9 and 10 years ago, and I haven't even spoken to her in about 7.
> 
> Why this is the case, I don't honestly know. I stopped being mad over 7 years ago. Not knowing the truth, or the full breadth of what happened hasn't affected my life since. In my head, I know it doesn't matter.
> 
> So obviously it's an ego thing. Something that happened to me, by somebody I once loved, and I know maybe 20% of the whole story.
> 
> And I want to know. I wouldn't even be mad, and I know that learning what I didn't know wouldn't change anything or affect me positively or negatively. I just want to know.
> 
> Totally an ego thing. I got screwed royally. Other people knew. I didn't know. I never got full closure, and not getting full closure sucks.
> 
> I don't stay awake at night wondering, or fantasize about getting closure, or anything like that. But it's there, in the back of my mind, WAY back, nagging at me. Part of it is "Why? what did I do to deserve that?" And part of it is "HOW could you have done that?" Again, no anger, no resentment. Just closure.


Me, too. It is not like it would make a difference in my life, but it interests me. May help explain some of the things I questioned back then. I have a lot of speculation about what was going on, although I do have indisputable proof of some cheating.
And, there is the paternity question, not that I would do anything differently,


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