# Does sex create an emotional bond, or not?



## firebelly1

One of the things I still haven't figured out about men is the fact that when asked, most men say that emotional bonding happens for them through sex with their partner. And yet...many men say they can and do have sex with women without emotional bonding. So which is it?


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## Tall Average Guy

firebelly1 said:


> One of the things I still haven't figured out about men is the fact that when asked, most men say that emotional bonding happens for them through sex with their partner. And yet...many men say they can and do have sex with women without emotional bonding. So which is it?


Why can't it be both? Many women discuss sex as a very personal and emotional event, yet also see no issue in a quick ONS.

Sex with my wife did not start out as an emotional bonding moment. Yet it is now clearly part of one. Were we to stop being married, I don't think that sex with my next partner would immediately involve bonding. Yet as the relationship grew, sex would become part of that bonding.


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## Fozzy

firebelly1 said:


> One of the things I still haven't figured out about men is the fact that when asked, most men say that emotional bonding happens for them through sex with their partner. And yet...many men say they can and do have sex with women without emotional bonding. So which is it?


It strengthens and sustains an already existing emotional bond. Without it, the bond tends to wither.


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## firebelly1

What you're both saying makes sense. I started a thread before where I asked men what they consider emotional intimacy to be - how that is created - the majority equated emotional intimacy with sexual intimacy. They felt emotionally closer to their partner with sex. I know for me as a woman i would be more inclined to say that I feel emotionally bonded to someone I can TALK to more than I would say through sex. But none of the men said talking created an emotional bond for them. So, trying to get my head around that. 

Also...I've been over in the "threesome" thread and thinking about swinging lately. Wondering how swingers manage NOT to form emotional bonds with sex partners who are not their SO's if, as men often say, emotionally bonding happens through sex.


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## Convection

firebelly1 said:


> One of the things I still haven't figured out about men is the fact that when asked, most men say that emotional bonding happens for them through sex with their partner. And yet...many men say they can and do have sex with women without emotional bonding. So which is it?


There is no "one size fits all" answer. It will vary with the man. I am sure the same is true with women. Besides, it only really matters howany man you're involved with treats it, and how *you* feel. Right?

These kind of questions seeking a universal answer to describe all members of a gender are kind of chasing a mythical beast.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl

Sex does create an emotional bond because it causes the body to create Oxytocin. 

However, men create less of it than women. So women tend to bond to a sex partner quicker than men do.

It usually takes more than one session of sex to get enough oxytocin in one's body for the 'in love' (or bonding) to happen. So if a man sleeps around, he's not very likely to bond to any of the women. To be honest the same goes for a woman who sleeps around... it's not like have sex once and boom you're bonded and in love.

Oxytocin does not just make a person bond to the other, it makes a person feel good.. very good.


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## lovelygirl

That's a very beautiful question. Can't wait for other men to answer!


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## samyeagar

firebelly1 said:


> One of the things I still haven't figured out about men is the fact that when asked, most men say that emotional bonding happens for them through sex with their partner. And yet...many men say they can and do have sex with women without emotional bonding. So which is it?


This is not strictly a men thing. My STBW is a case in point. She is very capable of having unattached sex and has.

For myself, the desire to have sex comes through the emotional bond. Not saying that I have to be in love, but there has to be a good emotional bond before I feel the desire.


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## MSP

Yes, it creates an emotional bond. At least, it is supposed to. However, the more someone (male or female) has casual sex, the less this happens, because they train their bodies not to bond from sex. This is probably why people with more partners have a higher divorce rate. 

The best bonding comes from passionate interaction. The more sex is just focused on you and your pleasure, the less you bond. The more you focus on the togetherness of the experience, the more you bond. It's also why you will repeatedly read here about men who feel lousy after their wife gives them duty sex. Hence, one prolonged session per week beats several quickies. 

You can bond through non-sexual activities, too, like the sort of things people do during chaste dates--holding hands, looking into each other's eyes, etc. Spending time together where you closely interact and are open and playful counts a lot, too. Obviously, not all strong bonds come from sex, or else we'd never feel close to our children.


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## firebelly1

samyeagar said:


> This is not strictly a men thing. My STBW is a case in point. She is very capable of having unattached sex and has.
> 
> For myself, the desire to have sex comes through the emotional bond. Not saying that I have to be in love, but there has to be a good emotional bond before I feel the desire.


And what creates that emotional bond for you that leads to desire?


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## samyeagar

firebelly1 said:


> And what creates that emotional bond for you that leads to desire?


In the case of my STBW and I, it really is the communication. We are able to be very open about everything, and are both genuinely interested in each other. We are in very regular contact through the day, sometimes serious things, other times mundane, funny things.

We have talked a lot about our sex life, desire, and things like that, and neither of us has ever experienced desire like this before, and neither of us felt the emotional connection with anyone else like this before.

We met online and it took about a week for us to move from email to voice and text. Once that happened, we spent easily 6 hours a day just talking, and the thing is, we still do that. Because of logistical issues, we didn't meet in person for about a month after we first started talking.


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## EleGirl

One thing about the emotional bond is that it's not created by sex alone. There have to be other factors. 

We usually end up bonded to a person who we have that 'love at first sight" sort of attraction. I think that pheromones are responsible for that. Then there are things like shared interests, time spent together and other factors. Sex is one part of it.. a very powerful part... but only one part.


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## Caribbean Man

MSP said:


> Yes, it creates an emotional bond. At least, it is supposed to. However, the more someone (male or female) has casual sex, the less this happens, because they train their bodies not to bond from sex. This is probably why people with more partners have a higher divorce rate.
> 
> The best bonding comes from passionate interaction. The more sex is just focused on you and your pleasure, the less you bond. The more you focus on the togetherness of the experience, the more you bond. It's also why you will repeatedly read here about men who feel lousy after their wife gives them duty sex. Hence, one prolonged session per week beats several quickies.
> 
> *You can bond through non-sexual activities, too, like the sort of things people do during chaste dates--holding hands, looking into each other's eyes, etc. Spending time together where you closely interact and are open and playful counts a lot, too. Obviously, not all strong bonds come from sex, or else we'd never feel close to our children.*


:iagree:

Human beings are complex.

I bonded with my wife before marriage, without sex.

That bond was so strong that at one point I attempted to break it off with her, because I was a bit unsure.
And I just couldn't.
It was the way she made me feel that created that bond.

Before her ,there were girls I had sex , lots of sex with and breaking up with them was easy. But you are correct, the more casual encounters one has the harder it is to create that bond through sex.


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## firebelly1

samyeagar said:


> This is not strictly a men thing. My STBW is a case in point. She is very capable of having unattached sex and has.
> 
> For myself, the desire to have sex comes through the emotional bond. Not saying that I have to be in love, but there has to be a good emotional bond before I feel the desire.


I have discovered of late that I am also capable of unattached sex as well and desiring sex for its own sake, but I think my desire to be with any particular partner would be enhanced significantly if I felt an emotional bond. And for me, emotional bonds are formed through talking: finding things in common, understanding each other on a deeper level, liking and respecting who that person is, showing empathy, feeling empathy, etc.


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## Dad&Hubby

firebelly1 said:


> One of the things I still haven't figured out about men is the fact that when asked, most men say that emotional bonding happens for them through sex with their partner. And yet...many men say they can and do have sex with women without emotional bonding. So which is it?


For me, sex has always meant an emotional bond. 

First, I need an emotional bond in order to have sex, then after sex, that bond is stronger. Even to the point that I CAN'T have unattached sex. I tried when I was younger and just couldn't do it. My brain was going much faster than my willy


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## Jamestone

I have to have the emotional connection first. But sex allows our connection to grow stronger and deeper.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tall Average Guy

firebelly1 said:


> I have discovered of late that I am also capable of unattached sex as well and desiring sex for its own sake, but I think my desire to be with any particular partner would be enhanced significantly if I felt an emotional bond. And for me, emotional bonds are formed through talking: finding things in common, understanding each other on a deeper level, liking and respecting who that person is, showing empathy, feeling empathy, etc.


A lot of men have difficulty expressing their emotions. In many ways, we are expected not to do so, or do so only in approved ways. My relationship with my wife is certainly better when I keep on a more even keel emotionally.

But sex can be a way to express some of those emotions - passion, desire, want and trust. To let some of that out and accept it from her as well.


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## EleGirl

The question is intersesting. The concepts often confuse women because we are hit on so much by men that the message that sex does not have an emotional component for men (except to boost their ego) is the one men show us the most often.

So when we marry (or form a committed relationship with a man) it's often hard for women to know that this gone guy has not switched to sex being how they express and maintain a strong emotional bond.


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## Jamestone

The emotional bonding for me comes from getting close to someone by talking and sharing our feelings and life with each other. As she becomes more comfortable and open with me I do the same in return and feel like I can share even more and some of those deep feelings and thoughts I start to share with her. When that happens and I feel she is both sincere and honest with me about her feelings our bond grows. As the emotion builds I begin to desire her in other ways, sexually and physically. When we are intimate it builds on that emotional connection and takes it to a deeper level for me. It makes my body come alive for her and I love that feeling of closeness.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans

I think it can be emotionally bondin, but not wtih everyone. 

There has to be that "extra" element of specialness with the person for it to feel super emotional.

And when it's super emotional it's almost downright biblical and it feels dammmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmn good.

Like your head is cruising through space and everything gets very quiet and light.

That's what happens to me anyway.


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## Married but Happy

Even when sex creates a bond, it can be broken - sometimes easily and quickly, sometimes with great difficulty. So much depends on other factors that can change over time. But people do break up even if they have lots of good sex.


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## Tall Average Guy

EleGirl said:


> The question is intersesting. The concepts often confuse women because we are hit on so much by men that the message that sex does not have an emotional component for men (except to boost their ego) is the one men show us the most often.
> 
> So when we marry (or form a committed relationship with a man) it's often hard for women to know that this gone guy has not switched to sex being how they express and maintain a strong emotional bond.


I would submit that the opposite is equally confusing to men. We often hear how women can and do engage in sex without any emotional connection with a man. That a ONS is completely normal and may just be part of a healthy sexual appetite. 

But married, women now apparently need an emotional connection before having sex. That when their long term partner is not meeting their emotional needs, they do not want sex with him. So men wonder why sex, which was once recreational, is now so tied to an emotional connection.

Human's are complicated creatures. Long term relationships change things, including how each views sex and communication. My discussions about moral issues with class mates back in college did not create the same emotional bonding that those same discussions created when I had them with my wife. I don't see why people expect that sex would remain unchanged.


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## Jellybeans

Married but Happy said:


> Even when sex creates a bond, it can be broken - sometimes easily and quickly, sometimes with great difficulty. So much depends on other factors that can change over time. But people do break up even if they have lots of good sex.


True. but sometimes, even broken up, you still always remember that emotional bond. Ah, love.


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## Jamestone

Sex makes emotional bods better but It cant support an emotional bond on its own.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## samyeagar

Jellybeans said:


> I think it can be emotionally bondin, but not wtih everyone.
> 
> There has to be that "extra" element of specialness with the person for it to feel super emotional.
> 
> And when it's super emotional it's almost downright biblical and it feels dammmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmn good.
> 
> Like your head is cruising through space and everything gets very quiet and light.
> 
> That's what happens to me anyway.


This is something for which I have no frame of reference for. I have never had disconnected sex.

This is another subject my STBW and I have talked a lot about. She has had both before being with me, and each had its good and bad points for her. Neither was necessarily better than the other, just different, though she preferred connected sex. The thing is, even the connected sex was in relationships that had serious flaws...verbal, mental, emotional, sexual, physical abuse, infidelity, and so while it was connected, there were many disconnects in the actual relationship. The same could be said about my relationship with my ex-wife, though she was the abuser.

Since we have been together, we are both feeling desire as neither of us had ever known before, and the connected sex aspect for her, she has remarked that it is almost scary to her how powerful it is.


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## firebelly1

Tall Average Guy said:


> I would submit that the opposite is equally confusing to men. We often hear how women can and do engage in sex without any emotional connection with a man. That a ONS is completely normal and may just be part of a healthy sexual appetite.
> 
> But married, women now apparently need an emotional connection before having sex. That when their long term partner is not meeting their emotional needs, they do not want sex with him. So men wonder why sex, which was once recreational, is now so tied to an emotional connection.
> 
> Human's are complicated creatures. Long term relationships change things, including how each views sex and communication. My discussions about moral issues with class mates back in college did not create the same emotional bonding that those same discussions created when I had them with my wife. I don't see why people expect that sex would remain unchanged.


I'm not saying women aren't confusing, I was just focusing on men for the moment.  But I would submit this: I think it there are negative emotions between you that keeps the woman from wanting sex more than just a lack of good emotional bonding. Does that make sense? Presence of negative emotions keeps sex from happening more than lack of special positive emotions. 

Although, in my case, because I was the HD partner, anytime my partner wanted to have sex, I went for it. Ok, so women are confusing too.


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## Tall Average Guy

firebelly1 said:


> I'm not saying women aren't confusing, I was just focusing on men for the moment.  But I would submit this: I think it there are negative emotions between you that keeps the woman from wanting sex more than just a lack of good emotional bonding. Does that make sense? Presence of negative emotions keeps sex from happening more than lack of special positive emotions.
> 
> Although, in my case, because I was the HD partner, anytime my partner wanted to have sex, I went for it. Ok, so women are confusing too.


Not sure I understand your distinction between positive and negative emotions there.

Regardless, I did not want to include women as much as I wanted to make the point that women change as well, particularly in a relationship. Sex changes and does communication, to name two things. It is not good or bad, it just is. But I raised it to perhaps help you understand that just as you have changed, so might your partner change. 

Even if that change might not make sense (lord knows I don't understand all the changes my wife has gone through), it may help you make peace with it.


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## firebelly1

Tall Average Guy said:


> Not sure I understand your distinction between positive and negative emotions there.
> 
> Regardless, I did not want to include women as much as I wanted to make the point that women change as well, particularly in a relationship. Sex changes and does communication, to name two things. It is not good or bad, it just is. But I raised it to perhaps help you understand that just as you have changed, so might your partner change.
> 
> Even if that change might not make sense (lord knows I don't understand all the changes my wife has gone through), it may help you make peace with it.


I mean that a wife doesn't have to feel particularly warm and fuzzy toward you to want to have sex with you, but if she is resenting you or mad at you for some reason, THAT emotion can keep her from wanting to have sex with you. 

I'm talking about the connection between emotion and desire. Not sure that clears it up any more.


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## samyeagar

firebelly1 said:


> I mean that a wife doesn't have to feel particularly warm and fuzzy toward you to want to have sex with you, but if she is resenting you or mad at you for some reason, THAT emotion can keep her from wanting to have sex with you.
> 
> I'm talking about the connection between emotion and desire. Not sure that clears it up any more.


And then there are the women who are in the abusive relationships where there is plenty of resentment and negative emotion, and yet still goes back and has sex...


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## Racer

It’s both.
You have to look at the motivations. Sometimes, it’s simply because I’m feeling randy as hell and really turned on. I’m just looking for fun and pleasure. An attraction thing.

Lots of other times, its other emotions driving that need: Overwhelming love would be expressed in physical sex. Sometimes I’m feeling unwanted or undesired, or depressed or sad, so I need that comfort sex. Basically, I want to bond.

Sex essentially is the result of some emotion, not the source of that emotion. So if I want to have a bonding moment, I’ll make a move. If I just want to bust a nut; I’ll make a move. The emotion comes first, then the action.

Since you aren’t in my head, you’ll have to look for other clues. Fun sex is more likely going to have that fun and exploratory feel to it; more freak than “love making”…. “Love making” is a lot more passionate and almost needy like I’m trying to absorb you into me.


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## LongWalk

This relationship between sex and emotion is a unit with variations. Pulling music apart into separate components of melody, harmony, rhythm, tone, form, tempo and dynamics can be useful for understanding. The same goes for relationships.

As far as the relation between emotion and sex. Everyone has had conflicting experiences. When we are in our teens crushes and infatuation are very strong and probably we go through quite a few before even kissing. I remember playing footsie with Gretchen in French class. It was as if my whole being was a tuning fork humming. Was it sexual or emotional? I could not distinguish at that time.

A baby sucking on a nipple doesn't analyse anything. It just feels that this is right. Loving mama is not a conscious decision.

I assume sexual pleasure is more intense for women than it is for us men because however much we enjoy it, we never have such long drawn out orgasms with involuntary convulsions and spasms.

From personal experience I feel that while young I was torn by two urges: one was to have sex and the other was avoid the clinging that women exhibited after sex. Returning for sex created emotion anyway.

When I split with my first LTR GF I was in her empty dorm room and picked up the stiff dry wash cloth that we had used to wipe up after sex. Suddenly I was really sad and the love I had felt for her was apparent for the first time, when it was over. But when we were having sex it was so magical. We came together without any worry about timing or technique.

Clearly many have sex with partners whom they consider unlikely SO's for marriage or LTR. The more we practice this kind of sex, the less likely we are to succeed in chancing into naturally magic relationships. The hunger for the connection is obviously a driving force for cheaters.


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## Tall Average Guy

firebelly1 said:


> I mean that a wife doesn't have to feel particularly warm and fuzzy toward you to want to have sex with you, but if she is resenting you or mad at you for some reason, THAT emotion can keep her from wanting to have sex with you.
> 
> I'm talking about the connection between emotion and desire. Not sure that clears it up any more.


I am not sure that it does (at least for me). I note the descriptions on this forum by some women that an emotional connection is needed for there to be desire (and that merely removing the resentments and things that tick a woman off don't mean that there is an emotional connection). Something that we see in our own wives. Yet the sense is that many of those same women had no issue with having sex with men (including their now husband) that they had little or no emotional connection with at the time.

So an emotional connection is necessary for desire, except when it is not.


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## ScarletBegonias

DH has a limited number of sexual partners bc he couldn't get into sex unless it meant something.He has never had a ons.

I'm the opposite.In the early stage,I had sex in hopes of receiving love.Then I learned to have it bc it was exciting. Then I learned I enjoyed associating sex with an emotional bond inside a long term relationship. 

If I found myself single I could likely go back to having sex for fun without the bond.It wouldn't be nearly as fulfilling though so I'd grow bored quickly and want something deeper associated with it.

So basically,to me,it's both.


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## firebelly1

LongWalk said:


> Clearly many have sex with partners whom they consider unlikely SO's for marriage or LTR. The more we practice this kind of sex, the less likely we are to succeed in chancing into naturally magic relationships. The hunger for the connection is obviously a driving force for cheaters.


I was really with you until the end. I'm not sure how you're concluding this...unless you're talking about the limitations of time. If you spend your time with people you aren't going to have LTR's with, you have less time to meet / spend time with people who are potential LTR mates. But sounds like you mean something else.


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## samyeagar

ScarletBegonias said:


> DH has a limited number of sexual partners bc he couldn't get into sex unless it meant something.He has never had a ons.
> 
> I'm the opposite.In the early stage,I had sex in hopes of receiving love.Then I learned to have it bc it was exciting. Then I learned I enjoyed associating sex with an emotional bond inside a long term relationship.
> 
> If I found myself single I could likely go back to having sex for fun without the bond.It wouldn't be nearly as fulfilling though so I'd grow bored quickly and want something deeper associated with it.
> 
> So basically,to me,it's both.


This could be written about my STBW and I...to the letter.


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## LongWalk

Here is a YouTube cover of Neil Young's Expecting to Fly. Whether you think Emily Haines (the singer) does justice to it or can be debated. However, when she finishes she seems to be so moved that she wipes aways a tear.

To me this says it all. Two persons fvcking and fighting say goodbye and suddenly all of the impact of the relationship precipitates even as it becomes too late to continue.


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## xakulax

This is a very illuminating thread with a very interesting question personally this is the main reason why I could never get into swinging for me I need that emotional element in order to truly enjoy any type of sexual activity with some one. Now that's not to say that I've been in love with every single person I've slept with but there need's to be some level of connection for me to truly and fully enjoy the sex.


From what I've seen of swinging in order to do with success one must disconnect the emotional side of sex and focus on the physical side of it in order to avoid any potential risk of creating an emotional bond with your play partner that could lead to endangering your relationship with your SO this is something I just cant get in to sex just for the sack of sex would bore me in the long run.


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## hawx20

that depends.

For me, when I was single, there were girls who you knew you just wanted to have fun with and there were the keepers.

I've been with a woman who was drop dead gorgeous, body to die for, but was dumb as bricks. The sex was incredible, the conversations not so much. She was there to play with and have fun. I could have sex with her all day, every day and never have that emotional bond.

Now someone I had feelings for, or even developing feelings for before sex, it absolutely strengthens the bond.

The first example I just want sex with. I dont love you, I dont want to love you, but we have a good time together and you're smoking hot. I just want the physical part from her.

The latter, I want to make love to you because I love feeling that close to her. The physical part is just a bonus.


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## LongWalk

firebelly1 said:


> I was really with you until the end. I'm not sure how you're concluding this...unless you're talking about the limitations of time. If you spend your time with people you aren't going to have LTR's with, you have less time to meet / spend time with people who are potential LTR mates. But sounds like you mean something else.


Yes, if you spend time on people you are not going to stay with, then your opportunity to meet potential LTR partners diminishes. For example, if you are of one faith and you know that your family will not accept a person of another faith, then you can go on with relationship for a period of time, knowing that it is doomed.

This can go in varying scenarios. A cousin of my had an LTR girlfriend who was Jewish. They got along well (and had a good sex life because I could hear them going at it when I roomed in the same house with my cousin. But my cousin was afraid of having a neurotic Jewish in-laws. This was completely irrational, since we have are own mixed neurotic ethnic background. Eventually they broke up although they were together for most to the time they were in grad school. Her years of fertility were wasted. She just managed in the end to marry and have one child.

Men and women for sure have recreational sex relationships and because these start as ONS or FWB, the truth about compatibility may not even be explored. 

It must be a very common occurence for a woman to become emotional invested and then break off the relationship because they cannot detect reciprocity. How often to guys later look back and say, "she could have been the one, but I didn't see it back then"?


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## LongWalk

> I've been with a woman who was drop dead gorgeous, body to die for, but was dumb as bricks. The sex was incredible, the conversations not so much. She was there to play with and have fun. I could have sex with her all day, every day and never have that emotional bond.


Hawx,

Sometimes the dumbness is shyness or earnestness. Not saying you were wrong about that one, but we are not always good judges of character early in life.


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## firebelly1

LongWalk said:


> Men and women for sure have recreational sex relationships and because these start as ONS or FWB, the truth about compatibility may not even be explored.
> 
> It must be a very common occurence for a woman to become emotional invested and then break off the relationship because they cannot detect reciprocity. How often to guys later look back and say, "she could have been the one, but I didn't see it back then"?


I'm seeing that now. There are people I'm sleeping with but have either not given any thought to whether or not they would be good long term partners or know within a pretty short period of time they wouldn't be. But, I'm purposely doing sex without commitment right now so knowing they wouldn't work as LTRs works for me. It's the one that I think might have potential that makes me nervous.


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## LongWalk

Firebelly,

I do have one suggestion. If you like sports, take part in some club. In mine there are couples who both play. They know each other in a deeper way first through sport and then they become lovers.

This can work with any activity that is mixed:

-rock climbing
-curling
-underwater hockey/rugby
-Crossfit
-martial arts
-running
-orientering 
-sailing
-kayaking
-shooting sports
etc


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## COguy

For me it's both. I could, biologically, have sex with a different woman every night and not attach any emotions to it.

BUT, if I like you, and am in a relationship, then sex will be a very big bonding experience for me, a real expression of love.


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## Entropy3000

firebelly1 said:


> One of the things I still haven't figured out about men is the fact that when asked, most men say that emotional bonding happens for them through sex with their partner. And yet...many men say they can and do have sex with women without emotional bonding. So which is it?


Both.

But men have sex to "connect". Even if it is "just sex" men will connection through it to a degree. Men who frequent prostitutes can develop an emotional bond as well.


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## Wolf1974

firebelly1 said:


> One of the things I still haven't figured out about men is the fact that when asked, most men say that emotional bonding happens for them through sex with their partner. And yet...many men say they can and do have sex with women without emotional bonding. So which is it?


Can only speak for myself but sex doesn't create an emotional bond for me with a woman. But it's also true that it's the only way to maintain one with a woman in a relationship. That's what works for me


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## Wolf1974

Tall Average Guy said:


> A lot of men have difficulty expressing their emotions. In many ways, we are expected not to do so, or do so only in approved ways. My relationship with my wife is certainly better when I keep on a more even keel emotionally.
> 
> But sex can be a way to express some of those emotions - passion, desire, want and trust. To let some of that out and accept it from her as well.


:iagree:
Only time I can be vulnerable for sure


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## Fozzy

Wolf1974 said:


> Can only speak for myself but sex doesn't create an emotional bond for me with a woman. But it's also true that it's the only way to maintain one with a woman in a relationship. That's what works for me


This is pretty much where I stand also. Sex didn't create my emotional bond with my wife, but when it was added in it really strengthened it and allowed it to flourish.


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## firebelly1

LongWalk said:


> Firebelly,
> 
> I do have one suggestion. If you like sports, take part in some club. In mine there are couples who both play. They know each other in a deeper way first through sport and then they become lovers.
> 
> This can work with any activity that is mixed:
> 
> -rock climbing
> -curling
> -underwater hockey/rugby
> -Crossfit
> -martial arts
> -running
> -orientering
> -sailing
> -kayaking
> -shooting sports
> etc


From the context of your posts I'm guessing you're making this suggestion not to find me people to have sex with but as potential LTR folks, right? 

I see it and I don't. I think having something in common with someone helps bond you, but I wonder if this isn't more of a male orientation. My stbxh would say he bonded with me when we went hiking or motorcycle riding together or in some way did some activity together. That's how guys seem to bond with each other. I would say we bonded when we (rarely) had a heart-to-heart conversation in bed or over dinner just the two of us. Heart-to-hearts is how women bond. 

Plus, I'm not super athletic. I tend to do solitary types of physical activity. But someone I'm seeing now - we have music in common. 

You know where I'd really like to meet a mate? At a meditation retreat or something like that. Of course, sort of defeats the purpose of a meditation retreat when you're scoping out the guys.


----------



## DoF

OP, depends on the person.

Some guys will bang you and won't give a crap as long as they get to hit it.

Some guys will bond with you during sex.

And most MEN will take their time to get to know you to create that emotional bond LONG before they sleep with you. And Intimacy (not sex) will bring you closer together.

It's woman's job to find out what kind of a guy he is. And a little secret: it takes TIME to REALLY get to know someone well (at least a year or 2).


----------



## xakulax

I think the male brain tends to be more hierarchical on how we determine a emotional connection via sex. At the lowest level of this hierarchy is the one night stand with very little to no real emotional connection its all about the physical excitement of the heat of the moment. Next you have the friends with benefits where there is some history and common interests but not enough for the next level of the hierarchy.


The FWB is all about sex with some comforts but with no possibility of a relationship similar to a ONS but with slightly more of an emotional connection. At the budding romance level is where men start equating sex with an emotional connection it is at this point where someone we are starting to develop strong feeling for the sex become more of demonstrating are affection then just matter of self gratification these feeling become even stronger at the next and last level of the hierarchy at this point all sexual activity become a demonstration of affection, gratification, and emotional connection with there SO.






1.Wife/Long term relationship partner 


2. Budding romance/ girl friend / fiance 


3. Friend benefits


4.One night stand





PS: Please note this is a working theory i'm just going off my old notes from my human psychology class.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

> *Dof said*:
> *And most MEN will take their time to get to know you to create that emotional bond LONG before they sleep with you. And Intimacy (not sex) will bring you closer together.*


 this was my Husband.. he doesn't even like to call it sex, it is always "*making love*" to him.



Jamestone said:


> The emotional bonding for me comes from getting close to someone by talking and sharing our feelings and life with each other. As she becomes more comfortable and open with me I do the same in return and feel like I can share even more and some of those deep feelings and thoughts I start to share with her. When that happens and I feel she is both sincere and honest with me about her feelings our bond grows.
> 
> As the emotion builds I begin to desire her in other ways, sexually and physically. When we are intimate it builds on that emotional connection and takes it to a deeper level for me. It makes my body come alive for her and I love that feeling of closeness.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


IF my H took a moment to post on this thread & typed a paragraph this long (not likely)....I'm pretty sure he would describe just as you have expressed here...









I have never felt, in all our yrs together...he just wanted to "get off" or that it wasn't about *Us* / the intimacy we share..... I can't relate to that......but have read many posts by women feeling this way...


----------



## Created2Write

For myself, sex is the ultimate expression of an already existing emotional connection. And once expressed, it must continue to be or the emotional connection wanes. DH and I have sex just for fun, too. It doesn't always have to be about some intense emotional connection. Sometimes it's purely physical and aggressive.


----------



## samyeagar

Created2Write said:


> For myself, sex is the ultimate expression of an already existing emotional connection. And once expressed, it must continue to be or the emotional connection wanes. DH and I have sex just for fun, too. It doesn't always have to be about some intense emotional connection. Sometimes it's purely physical and aggressive.


Yep. If every time my STBW and I had sex, it was about the lovey dovey emotion, we'd be complete emotional basket cases. Sometimes it's just fun to get naked and hit it.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

At the risk of wakening the beast in the men of TAM, I dare say it's "put out or get out." 
They may say otherwise, but no man loves a woman who won't put out. He may stay, but he can't love her without it. And no man dates a woman for long who doesn't, either. They can say it helps them bond, but it really just let's them be happy with not getting it from multiple places. Emotions have little to do with it. You can't bond with a piece of a, If you know what I mean. 

Men don't talk about how funny or smart or clever or insightful their women are. They don't care. They care about her sex drive and how physically hot she is. As long as she's not dumb or psycho, they find the best they can get if you know what I mean.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## xakulax

ebp123 said:


> At the risk of wakening the beast in the men of TAM, I dare say it's "put out or get out."
> They may say otherwise, but no man loves a woman who won't put out. He may stay, but he can't love her without it. And no man dates a woman for long who doesn't, either. They can say it helps them bond, but it really just let's them be happy with not getting it from multiple places. Emotions have little to do with it. Men don't talk about how funny or smart or clever or insightful their women are. They don't care. They care about her sex drive and how physically hot she is.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


ohhhhh I care how funny, smart, clever, insightful, kind,and compassionate my women are I would rather be with a woman who had all these qualities then some blow up doll with the intellect of a bag of hammers if I had to wait then I would wait if she worth it.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

xakulax said:


> ohhhhh I care how funny, smart, clever, insightful, kind,and compassionate my women are I would rather be with a woman who had all these qualities then some blow up doll with the intellect of a bag of hammers if I had to wait then I would wait if she worth it.


I hope you are real! The men of TAM have soured me to the point I wish I were a celibate lesbian!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## over20

Wolf1974 said:


> :iagree:
> Only time I can be vulnerable for sure


:iagree::iagree:

Why don't they teach us girls this in Health class.....:scratchhead:


----------



## xakulax

ebp123 said:


> I hope you are real! The men of TAM have soured me to the point I wish I were a celibate lesbian!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


LOL yes I am real


----------



## over20

ebp123 said:


> At the risk of wakening the beast in the men of TAM, I dare say it's "put out or get out."
> They may say otherwise, but no man loves a woman who won't put out. He may stay, but he can't love her without it. And no man dates a woman for long who doesn't, either. They can say it helps them bond, but it really just let's them be happy with not getting it from multiple places. Emotions have little to do with it. You can't bond with a piece of a, If you know what I mean.
> 
> Men don't talk about how funny or smart or clever or insightful their women are. They don't care. They care about her sex drive and how physically hot she is. As long as she's not dumb or psycho, they find the best they can get if you know what I mean.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



That is true for some men certainly. There are a lot of honorable men that are NOT like that though especially on TAM. The men here, I find are middle age and have been wounded or come here to look for advice how to be a better husband to their wives.

Both sexes can be guilty of being superficial.


----------



## LongWalk

ebp123 said:


> I hope you are real! The men of TAM have soured me to the point I wish I were a celibate lesbian!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Haha, ebp, nice to see you here. You started the TAM gun nuts thread of which I am a loyal member. You've so many TAM men churning the the thread for you.

Do men want partners who are dumber than a bag of hammers?

The truth is that men can be insecure. Being married with a smart woman can be hard, especially if she is way smarter. Most men want sex and they want their wives to enjoy sex so much that they are even a little addled in the head afterwards.

"To bang someone silly" is not just an idle expression.

Of course it is sad if a grown man expects his wife to bond emotionally through sex if he is not a good lover. 

Please come back to your gun thread and take a few pot shots. You will be honored, I promise.

Intelligence is also sexy, even if it can make men anxious from time to time. Evolution is not so keen on celibate lesbians.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

LongWalk said:


> Haha, ebp, nice to see you here. You started the TAM gun nuts thread of which I am a loyal member. You've so many TAM men churning the the thread for you.
> 
> Do men want partners who are dumber than a bag of hammers?
> 
> The truth is that men can be insecure. Being married with a smart woman can be hard, especially if she is way smarter. Most men want sex and they want their wives to enjoy sex so much that they are even a little addled in the head afterwards.
> 
> "To bang someone silly" is not just an idle expression.
> 
> Of course it is sad if a grown man expects his wife to bond emotionally through sex if he is not a good lover.
> 
> Please come back to your gun thread and take a few pot shots. You will be honored, I promise.
> 
> Intelligence is also sexy, even if it can make men anxious from time to time. Evolution is not so keen on celibate lesbians.


Hi LW! Been so busy I haven't visited my gun control thread in a while. Sure Unbelievable and dear old C- have lit it up, among many others (when they aren't busy stockpiling food and ammo). (Note to self: that may be ban-worthy. Check back in 24 hrs to see if I can log in.)

As for celibate lesbianism, a girls gotta do what a girls gotta do. Seriously, it is disheartening. I have sworn off men after too much TAM fodder. Sad, sad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Wolf1974 said:


> :iagree:
> *Only time I can be vulnerable for sure*


Wolf1974 have you ever seen this thread...many struggle with being vulnerable...

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...r-its-pain-its-beauty-how-vulnerable-you.html



> *over20 said:* *That is true for some men certainly. There are a lot of honorable men that are NOT like that though especially on TAM. The men here, I find are middle age and have been wounded or come here to look for advice how to be a better husband to their wives.*


:iagree:


----------



## samyeagar

ebp123 said:


> At the risk of wakening the beast in the men of TAM, I dare say it's "put out or get out."
> They may say otherwise, but no man loves a woman who won't put out. He may stay, but he can't love her without it. And no man dates a woman for long who doesn't, either. They can say it helps them bond, but it really just let's them be happy with not getting it from multiple places. Emotions have little to do with it. You can't bond with a piece of a, If you know what I mean.
> 
> Men don't talk about how funny or smart or clever or insightful their women are. They don't care. They care about her sex drive and how physically hot she is. As long as she's not dumb or psycho, they find the best they can get if you know what I mean.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not only do I need a woman, a partner who is smart, funny, and insightful, I need one who is compassionate and kind as well. I regularly talk about those qualities in my STBW with others whether she is around or not, and once you spend five minutes with her, it's easy to see all those things for yourself too.


----------



## Convection

No kidding, Sam. When someone asks me about my wife's positive qualities, the first things that come to mind are honesty, generosity, and kindness.

Objectively speaking, I know my wife isn't the best looking woman on the planet and she is carrying some extra weight. IDGAF. I love her - and lust after her - because of our connection upstairs.


----------



## samyeagar

Convection said:


> No kidding, Sam. When someone asks me about my wife's positive qualities, the first things that come to mind are honesty, generosity, and kindness.
> 
> Objectively speaking, I know my wife isn't the best looking woman on the planet and she is carrying some extra weight. IDGAF. I love her - and lust after her - because of our connection upstairs.


The emotional and mental bond that my STBW and I share it the driving force for everything else, and then it gets into the whole positive feedback loop when you throw the immense physical chemistry and lust in there. The thing is, the mental and emotional bond came first...

Side track here...I notice your user name, and your avatar, then throw in your location...what is your tie to meteorology?


----------



## Convection

samyeagar said:


> Side track here...I notice your user name, and your avatar, then throw in your location...what is your tie to meteorology?


I am a meteorologist; have bachelor's/master's degrees in atmospheric physics, been doing it for 20 years in the US military. And it's an avatar & user-name I haven't used in any other online presence. So, that's the story, boring as it is.

end t/j


----------



## LongWalk

ebp123 said:


> Hi LW! Been so busy I haven't visited my gun control thread in a while. Sure Unbelievable and dear old C- have lit it up, among many others (when they aren't busy stockpiling food and ammo). (Note to self: that may be ban-worthy. Check back in 24 hrs to see if I can log in.)
> 
> As for celibate lesbianism, a girls gotta do what a girls gotta do. Seriously, it is disheartening. I have sworn off men after too much TAM fodder. Sad, sad.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh, ebp,

Sad to hear about your insight into our gender. What shxts we are. You deserve more than celibate lesbianism but for sure there are hot celibate lesbians. I am willing to try it with you. I am sure I can last for hours. And I am not just selfishly into the lesbian celibacy part for my own pleasure.

I must warn you though – foreplay and tenderness are a must for me. You cannot just enjoy celibacy with me and then hop up and play video games.









TAM Rusalka

There once was a beautiful girl
whose tongue made an elegant swirl. 
The old men storing ammo and beans
proffered her ideas about genes.
She only smiled with teeth like freshwater pearl.


----------



## Wolf1974

SimplyAmorous said:


> Wolf1974 have you ever seen this thread...many struggle with being vulnerable...
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...r-its-pain-its-beauty-how-vulnerable-you.html
> 
> :iagree:


I actually followed it prior to ever starting to post here. I was a lurker for a long time.

I never used to struggle being open and vulnerable but I certainly do now and always will I'm afraid. Well all have baggage from our past. I just would like to think my still fits in one cart


----------



## SimplyAmorous

> *Convection said*: I am a meteorologist; have bachelor's/master's degrees in atmospheric physics, been doing it for 20 years in the US military. And it's an avatar & user-name I haven't used in any other online presence. So, that's the story, boring as it is.


 That's not boring! That's unique !!.... you don't meet one of those every day..we have 2 guy friends who really get into talking about the weather... one wanted to be a Meteorologist ...if he had went to school for it.. he just never did..




> *ebp123 said*: Men don't talk about how funny or smart or clever or insightful their women are. They don't care. They care about her sex drive and how physically hot she is. As long as she's not dumb or psycho, they find the best they can get if you know what I mean.


In the vein of some of the posts responding to ebp123's thoughts... I know my husband would not have wanted me if I was just a pretty face and a good Lay...he wanted a trustworthy woman who wasn't going to trample his heart and leave it lying on the ground.. I have a very soft side... this is probably why he fell in love with me...

He's always been one to brag me up -to others -in a variety of areas ....he can't do that on himself to save his own life though...and on my end....I very much uplift his qualities to...we validate each other...how it should be.



> *Wolf1974 said* : I actually followed it prior to ever starting to post here. I was a lurker for a long time.
> 
> I never used to struggle being open and vulnerable but I certainly do now and always will I'm afraid. Well all have baggage from our past. I just would like to think my still fits in one cart.


 Well it's good you finally joined here then !

Yes, reading about many relationships here has helped me see just how prevalent this is...you are not alone...and it's true, we need to be very very careful who we allow in....I feel the person on the receiving end has a very BIG role in that though... to secure that sort of trust...it takes 2 all the way.. Leave a door cracked though..


----------



## Vega

SimplyAmorous said:


> I have never felt, in all our yrs together...he just wanted to "get off" or that it wasn't about *Us* / the intimacy we share..... I can't relate to that......*but have read many posts by women feeling this way.*..


I'm one of those women. 

And it's even worse when you feel that way with your husband, and your husband has cheated...

Vega

ETA: Come to think of it, this whole "bonding thing" has me pretty confused. My h. and I used to have sex sometimes three times a day, every day. He would claim how we were "bonding". 

But geez dude...how often do you need to 'bond' with me? I mean, is the bond somehow BROKEN 3 hours after having sex with me? 

And if sex is the 'glue' that supposedly 'cements' a marriage, then why is it that so many people have healthy married sex lives, happily 'bonding' with their partner, yet go off to find an affair partner? Aren't they 'bonding' with their affair partner, too? 

Seems to me that if sex created that STRONG of a bond between the two people, we wouldn't be having affairs.

Something just doesn't seem right about that...

V.


----------



## firebelly1

ebp123 said:


> I hope you are real! The men of TAM have soured me to the point I wish I were a celibate lesbian!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I've had exactly the opposite reaction. With the rare exception, I think the men on this board are fantastic. It might be a self-selecting group 'cause the guys who aren't self-aware and don't care or think about their relationships - those guys aren't going to want to be on TAM, but still. It honestly gives me hope that someday I might find myself a real man.


----------



## firebelly1

Then again, I would avoid like the plague any threads about gun control. If I were reading that, I might have a different view.


----------



## Cosmos

I heard a quote once that "Women mistake sex for love, but men never mistake love for sex" and I think there's something in this. 

The hormone released during physical intimacy (oxytocin) can result in premature bonding in a woman, whereas a man's emotions take longer to catch up.


----------



## firebelly1

At the risk of being called a heartless **** (again) part of the reason that I asked this question is that I'm doing this thing now where I'm purposely sleeping around and trying NOT to get attached. I've seen some theories on other threads that if a woman is sleeping with more than one man the oxytocin doesn't have as much of an effect on attaching the woman to one man. Not sure if that's true, but what seems to be "working" if you will is noticing how I am thinking about the guy. 

I've noticed myself fantasizing about what my life would be like with this one if we were in a relationship, or feeling warm and fuzzy about how cute this one is with his dog. Things like that. And I recognized that that's how one starts becoming attached to someone emotionally. "Oh, look how much we have in common" etc. Not becoming attached requires me to nip those thoughts in the bud and distract myself with other thoughts about something unrelated. 

So...I've been curious as to whether men also, when they are just sleeping with someone without attachment, just have sex and move on mentally? Just...no more thoughts about this person. What's happening mentally and emotionally?


----------



## just got it 55

firebelly1 said:


> One of the things I still haven't figured out about men is the fact that when asked, most men say that emotional bonding happens for them through sex with their partner. And yet...many men say they can and do have sex with women without emotional bonding. So which is it?


For me without question

It has been said " men can have sex without love but... can rarely feel love without sex"

55


----------



## couple

You're asking two very separate questions. One is in the context of a man building a bond with a PARTNER and the other is in the context of sex with presumably any woman. The 'which is it?' part of this makes no logical sense since the context of your two choices is completely different. It's like asking someone "did you drive to work today or did you bring your lunch?" OK enough pedantry.

Everyone is different so it's hard to generalize. But I believe that for most people, sex creates a bond. Even if it's a one night stand and you never see that person again, i believe that the fact that there was sex between the two people creates a much much stronger emotional bond than a similar meeting without sex.

I would argue that sex probably creates the fastest and strongest bond of any common activity between two unrelated people (short of saving someone's life, etc.).

Of course i'm not arguing that unrelated people should just go off and have sex to create an emotional bonds but trying best to answer the second part of your question.

I don't really have an answer for the first part of your question (does emotional bonding with a PARTNER happen through sex for men?). A lot of factors create emotional bonding in serious relationships. I believe for both genders, sex is an important factor but it varies greatly among different people and also varies over time.


----------



## firebelly1

I really appreciate the responses that portray the answer as complex. Men aren't just switches that turn off and on. We CAN relate to each other. And...I now I"m kind of curious to ask the same question of women because we assume that women bond with sex, but maybe not so much. Maybe it's more complex than that. (oh yeah. I'm an example)


----------



## SurpriseMyself

firebelly1 said:


> I've had exactly the opposite reaction. With the rare exception, I think the men on this board are fantastic. It might be a self-selecting group 'cause the guys who aren't self-aware and don't care or think about their relationships - those guys aren't going to want to be on TAM, but still. It honestly gives me hope that someday I might find myself a real man.


I think you are right and I'm just throwing myself a bit of a pity party that my H isn't one to really care much about a woman's non-sexual qualities. He says he does, but then ignores mine. And at the risk of sounding narcissistic, I think I'm a good catch. Smart, funny, pretty, strong, loyal, open, young at heart. 

I think that I refuse to believe any guy isn't like this because it makes it that much harder knowing there are good men out there and mine isn't one. Not in a relationship, that is. He's a nice, dependable, straightforward guy, just not one to bond with a woman in any capacity or ever find any part of who I am worth noting.


----------



## firebelly1

ebp123 said:


> I think you are right and I'm just throwing myself a bit of a pity party that my H isn't one to really care much about a woman's non-sexual qualities. He says he does, but then ignores mine. And at the risk of sounding narcissistic, I think I'm a good catch. Smart, funny, pretty, strong, loyal, open, young at heart.
> 
> I think that I refuse to believe any guy isn't like this because it makes it that much harder knowing there are good men out there and mine isn't one. Not in a relationship, that is. He's a nice, dependable, straightforward guy, just not one to bond with a woman in any capacity or ever find any part of who I am worth noting.


I"m sad for you. During my marriage I felt so alone because my h and I did not have emotional intimacy - or sexual toward the end. I"ve asked this question on TAM before because I was trying to figure out how I could get my husband to be intimate with me in SOME way and was grasping at straws. Turns out he's really not capable of it (marriage counselor's words.) 

My now stbxh initiated our divorce but I look back on our relationship now and think I wasn't being unreasonable - I wanted intimacy and there are men who are capable of it. Mine wasn't one of them. So...now, maybe I can find one that is. 

And yes, I see this statement may seem ironic coming from someone who just said she is purposely trying not to get attached to any of her multiple sex partners.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Vega said:


> I'm one of those women.
> 
> And it's even worse when you feel that way with your husband, and your husband has cheated...
> 
> Vega
> 
> ETA: Come to think of it, this whole "bonding thing" has me pretty confused. My h. and I used to have sex sometimes three times a day, every day. He would claim how we were "bonding".
> 
> *But geez dude...how often do you need to 'bond' with me? I mean, is the bond somehow BROKEN 3 hours after having sex with me? *
> 
> And if sex is the 'glue' that supposedly 'cements' a marriage, then why is it that so many people have healthy married sex lives, happily 'bonding' with their partner, yet go off to find an affair partner? Aren't they 'bonding' with their affair partner, too?
> 
> Seems to me that if sex created that STRONG of a bond between the two people, we wouldn't be having affairs.
> 
> Something just doesn't seem right about that...


You married someone with an excessive sex drive, I actually felt like this 5 yrs ago for 8 months..I kept a calender to keep tract of how often we did it .. (I had to calm my jets for once a day)...then it slowly subsided ...I think I was driving my husband crazy!!...he didn't know what hit me, I didn't know what hit me..he was happy...but he couldn't keep up.. 

I've read a few books on hormones.. this is an old post I had on here about Testosterone..... your Man was definitely high Test.. and statistically they cheat more, want variety more..... this article can shed some light as well.. giving genetic factors...Physiological Indicators..Environmental/Behavioral Factors.... and how to lower the risk....

Dr. Phil.com - Advice - Will Your Man Cheat?

I know I will be talking to my daughter about all these sorts of things when she starts dating...I want her to find a man who can form a strong emotional bond with firm beliefs about sex.. but she has to play her part too in keeping him satisfied.. 3 times a day is almost like a sex addiction though!




> *Simplyamorous said*: Since I am reading a book about Hormones right now & this thread has much to do about a Male using His Testosterone as nature intented, I want to add some facts here, this is the book : Amazon.com: The Alchemy of Love and Lust (9780671004446): Theresa L. Crenshaw: Books
> 
> *As to Sexual roles -Testosterone *:
> 
> *Increases sexual thoughts & fantasies
> *Responds to Novelty , inspires one night stands & affairs
> *Increases aggressive sex drive in both men & women -but *Doesn't have a stong effect on erection except indirectly by increasing desire.
> *Increases the urge to masterbate rather than the desire for intercourse.
> 
> *As to Behavior, Testosterone *:
> 
> *Is activating
> *Maintains separateness & promotes aggression
> *Increases assertiveness and self -confidence
> *Has been implicated as a cause of certain types of criminal behavior and domestic violence.
> *Can trigger or contribute to psychotic behavior
> *Rises in response to winning, social status, and pecking orders
> *Is higher than usual in CAREER WOMAN
> 
> *How we can Influence Testosterone :*
> 
> *Winning compititions/arguments/battles
> *Sexual thoughtsm activities
> *Diet containing Meat
> *exercise
> 
> 
> As a potent aphrodisiac for both sexes, testosterone promotes a drive for specific genital sex & orgasm . It comes with some built in contradictions. Although full of LUST, you may become overbearing & irritable & unattractive to the opposite sex. At the least, it makes you want sex, but it also makes you want to be alone or thoroughly in control of sexual situations- so it specifically promotes masterbation or 1 night stands -which is as close to being alone as possible with another person.
> 
> Testosterone's motto: No emotional entaglements please. It is fair to say that it causes a compelling sexual urge that spurns relationships, unless they represent a conquest of acquisition of power.
> 
> Women, having considerably less testosterone than men, are more receptive to emotional intimacy and less reluctant to commit.
> 
> Luckily other hormones come into play to help us want the intimacy - such as *Dopamine *(Pleasure hormone) , *Oxytocin* (bonding -touching hormone), *PEA* -called the Molecule of love, PEA is the Romantic in us. *Estrogen* -men have this too & it increases as they age while test slowly descreases, *Vasopressin* -the tempering hormone - works closely with Testosterone to keep it from reaching extreme highs & getting too hot -they also call it the Monogamy hormone.
> 
> I really believe that much of our Behaviors ARE influenced by the specific levels of hormones in our body at any given time. If any of these hormones are out of whack/lacking/too high, it can cause colossal problems -which can indeed affect our relationships. We may not act as we should, as nature intended.


----------



## CharlotteMcdougall

firebelly1 said:


> I really appreciate the responses that portray the answer as complex. Men aren't just switches that turn off and on. We CAN relate to each other. And...I now I"m kind of curious to ask the same question of women because we assume that women bond with sex, but maybe not so much. Maybe it's more complex than that. (oh yeah. I'm an example)


My husband is to teaching me to equate sex with emotional bonding. I learned to shut off that part of me when men in the past treated me badly once I had sex with them. I also coped with sexual abuse by disassociating, which included removing my emotions from sex. Obviously those coping mechanisms do not suit a happy marriage. 

After years of associating sex with emotional pain and humiliation, it has been a long journey to allowing my heart into the marital bed. I was denying my sensitivity and emotional bonding to protect myself from getting hurt again. Every time I have sex with my husband, I feel the joys of passionate monogamy and the tenderness that lovemaking brings to a marriage. 

I believe that the majority of women equate sex with emotional bonding. Unfortunately, the hook up culture we live in encourages casual sex without emotional bonds. I was quite capable of removing my emotions from sex as a single woman, but the effort of doing so made me very jaded and bitter. I wasn't being true to myself because I yearned for the emotional safety of making love instead of just f***ing.


----------



## LongWalk

Charlotte,

There are lots of critiques of the now culture we have created. Quite a few books have come out. "Settling for Mr. Good Enough" was the title of one. People are getting married later and later in life. Going through ONS and LTR's in the search for the guy whose sex ranking is sufficient must make attachment more difficult.

Interestingly there is an entire segment of the media that gives women relationship advice. Men just don't consume this information. We live in isolation, sharing questions with male buddies who may not have very good advice.

Men actually have to find female friends to ask for help to understand what a woman is thinking.


----------



## RandomDude

For me, it depends on how we fk and why

Sex alone doesn't cut it when it comes to emotional bonding, making love however... does -> and there is a difference


----------



## CharlotteMcdougall

LongWalk said:


> Charlotte,
> 
> There are lots of critiques of the now culture we have created. Quite a few books have come out. "Settling for Mr. Good Enough" was the title of one. People are getting married later and later in life. Going through ONS and LTR's in the search for the guy whose sex ranking is sufficient must make attachment more difficult.
> 
> Interestingly there is an entire segment of the media that gives women relationship advice. Men just don't consume this information. We live in isolation, sharing questions with male buddies who may not have very good advice.
> 
> Men actually have to find female friends to ask for help to understand what a woman is thinking.


:iagree: I once dated this simpleton who did whatever his friends told him to do when he was dating someone. He wasn't very bright, so he would actually tell me stuff such as "My friends say that I should treat you like sh!t." :rofl: He was a very selfish and clueless man. I wouldn't be surprised if he died alone.


----------



## ReformedHubby

LongWalk said:


> Men actually have to find female friends to ask for help to understand what a woman is thinking.


I disagree with this statement. The only good relationship advice I've ever gotten from females centers around what gift to buy for birthdays, etc. etc. Overall the advice I've gotten from them (often unsolicited I might add) was too idealistic, and I hate to say this but borderline fairy tale like. In order to apply it to my relationship I would need to pretty much become a different person. Just because they are a woman it doesn't mean they know what _your_ woman is thinking. You're actually in a much better position to figure that out on your own.

There is one exception I'll concede. If momma says your lady ain't no good, listen to her.


----------



## firebelly1

Sometimes I think it would be better for me to let my friends and family pick a guy for me. Maybe there's a dating site idea there?


----------



## ReformedHubby

firebelly1 said:


> Sometimes I think it would be better for me to let my friends and family pick a guy for me. Maybe there's a dating site idea there?


Geez...that actually is a really good idea, especially for those that are 30 plus. Honestly I think both sexes tend to gravitate towards people that their parents hate when they are young. As we get older though for whatever reason the type of gal that momma always wanted for you becomes more and more appealing.


----------



## just got it 55

RandomDude said:


> For me, it depends on how we fk and why
> 
> Sex alone doesn't cut it when it comes to emotional bonding, making love however... does -> and there is a difference


Do I need to ask my wife if she is getting a good mix of love making and a good old banging ?

55


----------



## firebelly1

just got it 55 said:


> Do I need to ask my wife if she is getting a good mix of love making and a good old banging ?
> 
> 55


Couldn't hurt.


----------



## couple

A lot of people on this thread are assuming that casual sex is sex without emotional bonding. I would argue that one of the main reasons that many people have casual sex is out of a need to connect emotionally with another person, even if there is no effort to nurture that bond after the sex or to create a relationship with the sex partner. Casual sex may may (or may not) leave one more empty in the long run but it is a way to quickly create an emotional bond and I think the need for this bond is certainly a driving force behind a lot of one night stands.

'Emotional bonding' can take many forms and is not always part of a long term relationship or other commitment.


----------



## naiveonedave

for me sex in a LTR is needed to build emotional intamacy. Other sex just fixes on the release.... So it depends


----------



## Vega

naiveonedave said:


> for me sex in a LTR is needed to build emotional intamacy. Other sex just fixes on the release.... So it depends


I was in several LTR's including marriage. Most of the time, it seemed like my partner was looking for the 'release' and expected ME to 'give' it to him. 

I wonder how many men out there actually realize that if they are constantly expecting their partner to provide them with the 'release' without the emotional intimacy (inside and outside of the bedroom) 

that it can be a huge turn off to women, and that can actually cause a woman to become LD...

Hmmm...

Vega


----------



## ocotillo

This is a generalization, but the average man often doesn't seem to have the same quantity and quality of emotional outlets as his wife does.

Most of us aren't nearly as close to our parents as adults. My wife talks to her mother on the phone almost every evening. My father and I can take each other in small doses only. 

I've got some good friends, but the primary focus of these friendships are shared activities rather than meaningful communication. I don't discuss life's darkest fears and deepest secrets with my friends. I could probably go to a friend and find a listening ear if I were truly distressed, (As in the loss of a family member..) but a man who unloads his emotions on his friends too often probably won't have any friends in short order.

I hear my wife talking to her friends both on the phone and in person and it seems to be the exact opposite with her. Things directly relevant to their emotional state seem to be the primary topic of conversation between them. Every personal interaction they have during the day gets discussed and analyzed, right down to facial expressions and tone of voice.

The situation is similar when it comes to relationships with other family members. I'm pretty close to a brother, a couple of cousins and a few nephews, but the relationship is far more action oriented than comparable relationships between my wife and her family. 

For many of us, our wives are the one single person in the world we can truly open up to and be vulnerable around. Sex is a component of this because we tend to place actions on a much higher plane than words. A woman can tell her husband she loves him until the cows come home, but if she has zero interest in sex, he probably won't believe it in his heart of hearts. So in that sense, sex is an important component of the emotional bond.


----------



## naiveonedave

Vega - I hear your point, but in my view as a man is 100% opposite direction.


----------



## hawx20

LongWalk said:


> Hawx,
> 
> Sometimes the dumbness is shyness or earnestness. Not saying you were wrong about that one, but we are not always good judges of character early in life.




No, she was dumb. It was embarrassing at times. Let me tell you about 3 of her greatest hit moments.

#1. I had a a friend come by to pick up a CD I made for him. My PC was in my bedroom so I was sitting on the edge of the bed, he was sitting on the other side edge playing a playstation football game.

She asked if we were gay because we were both sitting on the bed.

#2 While friend was playing the playstation football game, she starts cheering when he scored a touchdown. She thought the Cowboys were really playing. "I didnt know the Cowboys play on Wednesday nights!" she said.

#3 While watching TV, a beer commercial came out featuring the Silver bullet train coming right into a city smoking from the ice. She thought the train was real and wanted to go on it one day.

So yeah, she was my guilty pleasure. Every inch of that body and face was perfection. Sadly, the brain just didnt receive any attention.


----------



## firebelly1

couple said:


> A lot of people on this thread are assuming that casual sex is sex without emotional bonding. I would argue that one of the main reasons that many people have casual sex is out of a need to connect emotionally with another person, even if there is no effort to nurture that bond after the sex or to create a relationship with the sex partner. Casual sex may may (or may not) leave one more empty in the long run but it is a way to quickly create an emotional bond and I think the need for this bond is certainly a driving force behind a lot of one night stands.
> 
> 'Emotional bonding' can take many forms and is not always part of a long term relationship or other commitment.


In my latest foray into casual sex, I've seen what you're saying. One guy I've been with said up front he just wanted sex but the first night we were together, he was all about the post-coital cuddle. 

Sex is a very vulnerable act...physically and emotionally - especially for the person being penetrated. You are taking the risk that the other person will physically hurt you, and when they don't, there is a little bit of trust that gets built. Then there's the kinky stuff you like - you reveal that to someone and hope they don't laugh at you or recoil and when they actually get into it with you, right on. More trust AND validation. The dark parts of yourself are alright. You are understood and that part of you is embraced. That's pretty powerful emotional stuff.


----------



## Jellybeans

firebelly1 said:


> Sex is a very vulnerable act...physically and emotionally


:iagree:


----------



## firebelly1

ocotillo said:


> This is a generalization, but the average man often doesn't seem to have the same quantity and quality of emotional outlets as his wife does.
> 
> Most of us aren't nearly as close to our parents as adults. My wife talks to her mother on the phone almost every evening. My father and I can take each other in small doses only.
> 
> I've got some good friends, but the primary focus of these friendships are shared activities rather than meaningful communication. I don't discuss life's darkest fears and deepest secrets with my friends. I could probably go to a friend and find a listening ear if I were truly distressed, (As in the loss of a family member..) but a man who unloads his emotions on his friends too often probably won't have any friends in short order.
> 
> I hear my wife talking to her friends both on the phone and in person and it seems to be the exact opposite with her. Things directly relevant to their emotional state seem to be the primary topic of conversation between them. Every personal interaction they have during the day gets discussed and analyzed, right down to facial expressions and tone of voice.
> 
> The situation is similar when it comes to relationships with other family members. I'm pretty close to a brother, a couple of cousins and a few nephews, but the relationship is far more action oriented than comparable relationships between my wife and her family.
> 
> For many of us, our wives are the one single person in the world we can truly open up to and be vulnerable around. Sex is a component of this because we tend to place actions on a much higher plane than words. A woman can tell her husband she loves him until the cows come home, but if she has zero interest in sex, he probably won't believe it in his heart of hearts. So in that sense, sex is an important component of the emotional bond.


THIS. Yes. Makes so much sense. Sex is actually one of the only situations men are allowed to be vulnerable.


----------



## Vega

ocotillo said:


> For many of us, our wives are the one single person in the world we can truly open up to and be vulnerable around. Sex is a component of this because we tend to place actions on a much higher plane than words. *A woman can tell her husband she loves him until the cows come home, but if she has zero interest in sex, he probably won't believe it in his heart of hearts.* So in that sense, sex is an important component of the emotional bond.


And likewise Ocotillo...

If a man seems to be ONLY interested in sex, and treats her like crap outside of the bedroom, she's not going to believe he loves her. If he has zero interest in her life apart from sex, she's not going to feel/believe he _loves_ ALL of her; that he 'loves' ONLY her body, and how she can make him feel good. 

Vega


----------



## ocotillo

Vega said:


> And likewise Ocotillo...
> 
> If a man seems to be ONLY interested in sex, and treats her like crap outside of the bedroom, she's not going to believe he loves her. If he has zero interest in her life apart from sex, she's not going to feel/believe he _loves_ ALL of her; that he 'loves' ONLY her body, and how she can make him feel good.
> 
> Vega


I don't doubt or dispute that at all. And I understand the temptation in these threads to 'flip the coin over' and show an equally valid obverse side, so to speak.

I would assume that the OP already understands this though. (?)


----------



## firebelly1

ocotillo said:


> I don't doubt or dispute that at all. And I understand the temptation in these threads to 'flip the coin over' and show an equally valid obverse side, so to speak.
> 
> I would assume that the OP already understands this though. (?)


Yep. I do. 

I'm feeling a bottom line coming on: If a woman refuses sex, it makes the man feel unloved and if the man refuses non-sexual intimacy, the woman feels unloved. True?


----------



## Fozzy

firebelly1 said:


> Yep. I do.
> 
> I'm feeling a bottom line coming on: If a woman refuses sex, it makes the man feel unloved and if the man refuses non-sexual intimacy, the woman feels unloved. True?


True. Not limited to either/or however. IMO, many men need sex AND non-sexual intimacy. So do many women. Not good to withhold either.


----------



## samyeagar

firebelly1 said:


> Yep. I do.
> 
> I'm feeling a bottom line coming on: If a woman refuses sex, it makes the man feel unloved and if the man refuses non-sexual intimacy, the woman feels unloved. True?


No.

Depends on the individual, which ultimately, for the purposes of our own relationships, isn't that WAY more important than any generality?

I know for a fact that if I turn my STBW down for sex, she feels unloved. She is a woman that feels love very strongly through sex, as much, if not more than the non sexual intimacy. Myself, I would feel more rejected if she didn't reach out and take my hand as we were walking than if she said she wasn't feeling up to sex that night. The good thing is, we both understand each other because we care enough to try and completely understand our partner, and the sexual and non sexual intimacy is there in spades, so we are both satisfied and feel loved in every way.


----------



## firebelly1

samyeagar said:


> No.
> 
> Depends on the individual, which ultimately, for the purposes of our own relationships, isn't that WAY more important than any generality?
> 
> I know for a fact that if I turn my STBW down for sex, she feels unloved. She is a woman that feels love very strongly through sex, as much, if not more than the non sexual intimacy. Myself, I would feel more rejected if she didn't reach out and take my hand as we were walking than if she said she wasn't feeling up to sex that night. The good thing is, we both understand each other because we care enough to try and completely understand our partner, and the sexual and non sexual intimacy is there in spades, so we are both satisfied and feel loved in every way.


Well...I do like that answer better than my bottom line. It would be easier if we could pigeon-hole the sexes, but I like that we can't somehow. 

Maybe my frame of reference that's wacked. I spent 8 years married to someone who didn't do emotional intimacy so I tried to justify staying married to him by telling myself all men were like this.


----------



## ocotillo

firebelly1 said:


> I'm feeling a bottom line coming on: If a woman refuses sex, it makes the man feel unloved and if the man refuses non-sexual intimacy, the woman feels unloved. True?


I'd agree with that. --Generally speaking of course - people are all different.

I also think this reality sets the stage for a Hatfield vs. McCoys type of situation where both sides believe they are 100% in the right and take a, "I'm not going to budge until they do first" attitude when the relationship goes south.


----------



## samyeagar

firebelly1 said:


> Well...I do like that answer better than my bottom line. It would be easier if we could pigeon-hole the sexes, but I like that we can't somehow.
> 
> Maybe my frame of reference that's wacked. I spent 8 years married to someone who didn't do emotional intimacy so I tried to justify staying married to him by telling myself all men were like this.


Applying a generality is easier, and takes less effort than actually trying to figure things out, which is why so many people rely on them...

My STBW fell into a similar trap with me. She has been with a lot of men, thought she understood them, her own life experiences absolutely backed up the worst stereotypes about them. Then she met me. A man who is very different from anything she ever knew about men. I am quite glad she found trying to understand me as an individual to be worth the effort because if she had treated me the way she thought men worked, we wouldn't be together any more


----------



## always_alone

I used to think sex created an emotional bond.

But now I'm not so sure. Mostly I think it's body parts rubbing against each other. Don't see the increase in intimacy, vulnerability, sharing --any of it.


----------



## Vega

Fozzy said:


> *many men need sex AND non-sexual intimacy*


I have yet to meet one. 

It has been my unfortunate life experience that the men I have been with seem to want...no...*DEMAND* the sex without the non-sexual intimacy. They have all said the same thing: That the ONLY way they felt love was through sex, and that sex was the ONLY way they felt 'bonded'. Holding hands while walking through a mall... cuddling on the sofa while watching t.v.... a quick hug while walking from one room to another... a quick kiss while driving to church...and engrossing conversation about current events... all seemed to be either RARE, or immediately led to sex. 

I'm sorry to say, but after my experiences, I'm starting to think that this whole "bonding" thing is an urban _myth_. 

ETA: Eons ago, sex was supposed to be what separated the marital relationship from every other relationship. We were ONLY supposed to have sex with our spouse...and no one else...even BEFORE marriage. In that case, I can see how a 'bond' can be created. 

But when people are now having sex before marriage, and having affairs at warp speed, it's hard to see how sex and 'bonding' can be related. 

Vega


----------



## samyeagar

Vega said:


> I have yet to meet one.
> 
> It has been my unfortunate life experience that the men I have been with seem to want...no...*DEMAND* the sex without the non-sexual intimacy. They have all said the same thing: That the ONLY way they felt love was through sex, and that sex was the ONLY way they felt 'bonded'. Holding hands while walking through a mall... cuddling on the sofa while watching t.v.... a quick hug while walking from one room to another... a quick kiss while driving to church...and engrossing conversation about current events... all seemed to be either RARE, or immediately led to sex.
> 
> *I'm sorry to say, but after my experiences, I'm starting to think that this whole "bonding" thing is an urban myth*.
> 
> ETA: Eons ago, sex was supposed to be what separated the marital relationship from every other relationship. We were ONLY supposed to have sex with our spouse...and no one else...even BEFORE marriage. In that case, I can see how a 'bond' can be created.
> 
> But when people are now having sex before marriage, and having affairs at warp speed, it's hard to see how sex and 'bonding' can be related.
> 
> Vega


I'm sorry that you feel that way, even when faced with several real world examples right here that dispel that myth. The thing is, the stronger you believe that, the more likely you are to continue to attract that which you say you do not want.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Fozzy said:


> True. Not limited to either/or however. IMO, many men need sex AND non-sexual intimacy. So do many women. Not good to withhold either.


My husband is definitely one of those men even though emotional intimacy makes him a bit uncomfortable.He will straight up tell me when I'm not being affectionate or loving enough to satisfy him.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Maybe there is a disconnect between what we feel and what we expect others to feel.

If you have sex with someone and feel bonded to them because of it but they do not feel bonded to you, does that negate your feelings of bonding? It is your choice in that case, to let the other person's feelings affect your experience.

Same with pleasure.

If you had pleasure from a sexual experience but your partner didn't, does that mean you should then tell yourself it wasn't pleasurable?


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> Maybe there is a disconnect between what we feel and what we expect others to feel.
> 
> If you have sex with someone and feel bonded to them because of it but they do not feel bonded to you, *does that negate your feelings of bonding*? It is your choice in that case, to let the other person's feelings affect your experience.
> 
> Same with pleasure.
> 
> If you had pleasure from a sexual experience but your partner didn't, *does that mean you should then tell yourself it wasn't pleasurable*?


No, of course not, but it is perfectly normal for people to at least somewhat align their feelings of bonding and pleasure with that of their partner. When there is a large disconnect, disparity between what the two people took away, that is one of the things that leads to feelings of objectification and being used.


----------



## tacoma

firebelly1 said:


> One of the things I still haven't figured out about men is the fact that when asked, most men say that emotional bonding happens for them through sex with their partner. And yet...many men say they can and do have sex with women without emotional bonding. So which is it?


Not for me it doesn't.

I can enjoy sex purely for fun, no strings attached and walk away without a second thought.

However, sex with someone I already have an emotional bond with acts as a catalyst for the intensity of that emotional bond.

Being that physically intimate with someone I'm emotionally attached to keeps me attached to that person and makes that attachment stronger.


----------



## Faithful Wife

It is still a choice. I have relatives that don't show love or any type of bonding to anyone, yet I still feel love for them and bonded to them for my own reasons, regardless of how they feel. I can't impose my feelings on them anymore than they can on me...but I choose to leave my love in place for them, regardless of their actions.

My point is, how it is for you is your choice and your own experiences.

You can choose to get the heck outta dodge if you don't like how someone else feels about bonding or not bonding with you. But the point is we just can't dictate how someone else processes these things, nor are they right or wrong, just different than us.


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> It is still a choice. I have relatives that don't show love or any type of bonding to anyone, yet I still feel love for them and bonded to them for my own reasons, regardless of how they feel. I can't impose my feelings on them anymore than they can on me...but I choose to leave my love in place for them, regardless of their actions.
> 
> My point is, how it is for you is your choice and your own experiences.
> 
> You can choose to get the heck outta dodge if you don't like how someone else feels about bonding or not bonding with you. But the point is we just can't dictate how someone else processes these things, nor are they right or wrong, just different than us.


Are you suggesting that absent deception or other underhanded means, someone for instance has every right to feel used or objectified, but does not necessarily have the right to blame or hold it against the other person?


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Vega said:


> And likewise Ocotillo...
> 
> If a man seems to be ONLY interested in sex, and treats her like crap outside of the bedroom, she's not going to believe he loves her. If he has zero interest in her life apart from sex, she's not going to feel/believe he _loves_ ALL of her; that he 'loves' ONLY her body, and how she can make him feel good.
> 
> Vega


One of the reasons my H didn't push for more sex in the past IS because he never wanted me *to FEEL THIS WAY*...he told me this one day, discussing how we missed each other in the past....I guess some can go a little overboard on the other end...I was like ..."WHAT?..your kidding?" and told him I would have never thought that..as he always treated me so good..



> *Vega said *:I have yet to meet one.
> 
> It has been my unfortunate life experience that the men I have been with seem to want...no...DEMAND the sex without the non-sexual intimacy. They have all said the same thing: *That the ONLY way they felt love was through sex, and that sex was the ONLY way they felt 'bonded'. Holding hands while walking through a mall... cuddling on the sofa while watching t.v.... a quick hug while walking from one room to another... a quick kiss while driving to church...and engrossing conversation about current events... all seemed to be either RARE, or immediately led to sex. *
> 
> I'm sorry to say, but after my experiences, I'm starting to think that this whole "bonding" thing is an urban myth.


 I'm not trying to be difficult here...just relaying my personal experience as we all are...It really depends on the man....or possibly what circles you run in..what a man believes about sex even...mine could never separate Love and sex.. it just goes against something ingrained in him..

I am assuming you are mainly attracted to Bad boys...if this is your sole experience in life.... I married the utter opposite and I've always been "spoiled" in everything you mentioned here....he loves those things as much as I DO...he even watches Chick flicks with me....affection should be his middle name...

But here is the thing...women weren't clawing for my guy when he was younger...he was introverted, had glasses, not into sports and was dumped twice before he met him.. all he needed was a girl to take a little time to get to know him deeper... oh what an old fashioned Romantic he was...and he's never changed over all these yrs...

There really are such men out there.. probably more on the Nice Guy side of the fence..(I mean in a genuine sense) ...


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> Are you suggesting that absent deception or other underhanded means, someone for instance has every right to feel used or objectified, but does not necessarily have the right to blame or hold it against the other person?


People feel used or objectified based on their own situation and they get to decide how they feel and why.

The people or person they feel objectified them may or may not have actually done so.

Also people can be objectified and yet not feel objectified.

Not sure how any of that is relevant but that's my opinion.


----------



## naiveonedave

You said "I have yet to meet one. "

I am one.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

always_alone said:


> I used to think sex created an emotional bond.
> 
> But now I'm not so sure. Mostly I think it's body parts rubbing against each other. Don't see the increase in intimacy, vulnerability, sharing --any of it.


Take it from someone in a sexless marriage, without it the emotional bond withers and dies.

That isn't to say that having sex automatically creates an emotional bond where none exists but it is definitely part of the equation. It does help build and strengthen an emotional connection where one already exists or has the potential to exist.


----------



## naiveonedave

Another passing thought....

In my few ONS or similar sex encounters I could tell I was forming an emotional bond that wasn't reciprocated. Just must be my personality....


----------



## firebelly1

naiveonedave said:


> Another passing thought....
> 
> In my few ONS or similar sex encounters I could tell I was forming an emotional bond that wasn't reciprocated. Just must be my personality....


That has been my inclination in the past as well. And...really...I can feel myself doing that now. But I've noticed I can intentionally keep myself from getting too attached by not thinking emotionally charged thoughts. So...I wonder how much intention has to do with it vs. personality or physiology.


----------



## Vega

samyeagar said:


> I'm sorry that you feel that way, even when faced with several real world examples right here that dispel that myth. .


_Several_ real world examples does NOT dispel the myth. To me, it simply means that here are exceptions to every rule. More on that in a moment...



> The thing is, the stronger you believe that, the more likely you are to continue to attract that which you say you do not want


The first time I had sex I was in my late teens and in a LTR (2 years). We broke up because I wanted to experience other people, more of life, and to move across country. Although he was heartbroken, he understood, and now, over 4 _decades_ later, he is my best male friend. So, I was not 'jaded' by any experiences back then. 

But each man I had sex with after that turned out to be a JERK. Unfortunately, their jerkiness was apparent in the beginning, but I have a trusting/forgiving nature. They took advantage of that nature, until I said, "no more". 

Believe me when I tell you, that I only recently became a bit jaded through my experiences. What I have come to realize is NOT that I "attract" jerks, but that there are SO MANY JERKS IN THE WORLD, that it's hard NOT to attract them! 

When I say that it seems to be the exception and not the rule, I mean that even though MOST of *my* experiences have sucked--BIG time--, not everyone's experiences suck. I have come to deeper understanding of what TRUE LOVE is, and how RARE it is. I have come to appreciate a man who knows how to express himself in non-sexual ways, and feel sorrow for those who limit themselves to ONLY expressing love through sex. It's kind of like ONLY eating ice cream when there are so many different great tasting foods around... 

...If they would just take the time to seek them out. 

In all honesty, I think that sex can create an emotional bond...and vice versa. But I think it's rare to find. 

Vega


----------



## Vega

(Sorry for the double post)



firebelly1 said:


> That has been my inclination in the past as well. And...really...I can feel myself doing that now. But I've noticed I can intentionally keep myself from getting too attached by not thinking emotionally charged thoughts. So...I wonder how much intention has to do with it vs. personality or physiology.



As much as we talk about the chemicals that are produced in our brains/bloodstream during sex, I wonder if it's not a significant amount enough to produce those 'bonding feelings'. In other words, the more often we have sex with the same person, the more likely we will begin to feel 'bonded' with them at a certain point. That point may vary from person to person. Of course, this doesn't explain how a man may have sex with a woman for YEARS, and still not feel 'bonded' to her. Hence, that lack of the bonding feelings may very well contribute to them having an affair at some point.

Also, it seems that no matter how much of the chemicals are produced, that we always have a choice as to whether or not to act on them.

Vega


----------



## samyeagar

Vega said:


> _Several_ real world examples does NOT dispel the myth. To me, it simply means that here are exceptions to every rule. More on that in a moment...
> 
> 
> 
> The first time I had sex I was in my late teens and in a LTR (2 years). *We broke up because I wanted to experience other people,* more of life, and to move across country. Although he was heartbroken, he understood, and now, over 4 _decades_ later, he is my best male friend. So, I was not 'jaded' by any experiences back then.
> 
> But each man I had sex with after that turned out to be a JERK. *Unfortunately, their jerkiness was apparent in the beginning*, but I have a trusting/forgiving nature. They took advantage of that nature, until I said, "no more".
> 
> Believe me when I tell you, that I only recently became a bit jaded through my experiences. What I have come to realize is NOT that I "attract" jerks, but that there are SO MANY JERKS IN THE WORLD, that it's hard NOT to attract them!
> 
> When I say that it seems to be the exception and not the rule, I mean that even though MOST of *my* experiences have sucked--BIG time--, not everyone's experiences suck. I have come to deeper understanding of what TRUE LOVE is, and how RARE it is. I have come to appreciate a man who knows how to express himself in non-sexual ways, and feel sorrow for those who limit themselves to ONLY expressing love through sex. It's kind of like ONLY eating ice cream when there are so many different great tasting foods around...
> 
> ...If they would just take the time to seek them out.
> 
> In all honesty, I think that sex can create an emotional bond...and vice versa. But I think it's rare to find.
> 
> Vega


Hoping not to come off as one of those jerks, but it sort of sounds like you had a large part in creating your own reality.

Finding the bad ones is easy, men or women, and unfortunately for a lot of people, they don't want to take the time to find any one a the plethora of good ones out there.


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## always_alone

Vega said:


> As much as we talk about the chemicals that are produced in our brains/bloodstream during sex, I wonder if it's not a significant amount enough to produce those 'bonding feelings'.


I'm rather inclined to think chemicals, schmemicals.

Yeah, sure you might get a little boost from them, but 10 minutes later, they're gone.

And to continue the sugar analogy: it could be ice cream, candy bars, or tira misu. The source of the rush is irrelevant if all you care about is the rush.


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## samyeagar

Vega said:


> *Several real world examples does NOT dispel the myth. To me, it simply means that here are exceptions to every rule. More on that in a moment...*
> 
> 
> 
> The first time I had sex I was in my late teens and in a LTR (2 years). We broke up because I wanted to experience other people, more of life, and to move across country. Although he was heartbroken, he understood, and now, over 4 _decades_ later, he is my best male friend. So, I was not 'jaded' by any experiences back then.
> 
> But each man I had sex with after that turned out to be a JERK. Unfortunately, their jerkiness was apparent in the beginning, but I have a trusting/forgiving nature. They took advantage of that nature, until I said, "no more".
> 
> Believe me when I tell you, that I only recently became a bit jaded through my experiences. What I have come to realize is NOT that I "attract" jerks, but that there are SO MANY JERKS IN THE WORLD, that it's hard NOT to attract them!
> 
> When I say that it seems to be the exception and not the rule, I mean that even though MOST of *my* experiences have sucked--BIG time--, not everyone's experiences suck. I have come to deeper understanding of what TRUE LOVE is, and how RARE it is. I have come to appreciate a man who knows how to express himself in non-sexual ways, and feel sorrow for those who limit themselves to ONLY expressing love through sex. It's kind of like ONLY eating ice cream when there are so many different great tasting foods around...
> 
> ...If they would just take the time to seek them out.
> 
> In all honesty, I think that sex can create an emotional bond...and vice versa. But I think it's rare to find.
> 
> Vega


Just as the several real world examples here of married women who love sex does not dispel the myth? Or the several real world examples here of women who know exactly what they find attractive and want sexually does not dispel the myth? I wish FW, AA, and C2W were here to defend this one the same way they defend breaking other myths...


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## Vega

samyeagar said:


> Hoping not to come off as one of those jerks, but it sort of sounds like you had a large part in creating your own reality.
> 
> Finding the bad ones is easy, men or women, and unfortunately for a lot of people, they don't want to take the time to find any one a the plethora of good ones out there.


Yes, finding the bad ones IS easy (and no, I'm not attracted to Bad Boys. I'm the 'geeky' type). That's whyt I said that there are SO MANY of them! 

Some people can spot them a mile away. I, for one, cannot. At least, not until recently. I usually approach people from a more positive outlook, as in, giving people the benefit of the doubt. Not so much any more.

The good news is that I realize that MOST of the men in my LTR's have LIED to me (about some pretty serious stuff) within the first 3 months of our relationship. In every case, I was quick to forgive. 

I now have a new motto: FIRST LIE, GOOD-*BYE*!

V.


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## ocotillo

always_alone said:


> I'm rather inclined to think chemicals, schmemicals.
> 
> Yeah, sure you might get a little boost from them, but 10 minutes later, they're gone.


Did you ever fall head over heels for someone? Did your heart quicken just at the thought of that person?

I'm not trying to argue here. I'm curious myself how much of love/bonding/attraction is chemical.


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## firebelly1

Vega said:


> Yes, finding the bad ones IS easy (and no, I'm not attracted to Bad Boys. I'm the 'geeky' type). That's whyt I said that there are SO MANY of them!
> 
> Some people can spot them a mile away. I, for one, cannot. At least, not until recently. I usually approach people from a more positive outlook, as in, giving people the benefit of the doubt. Not so much any more.
> 
> The good news is that I realize that MOST of the men in my LTR's have LIED to me (about some pretty serious stuff) within the first 3 months of our relationship. In every case, I was quick to forgive.
> 
> I now have a new motto: FIRST LIE, GOOD-*BYE*!
> 
> V.


I think this is a good rule of thumb Vega. 

In re: geeky girls. I'm one of those and I am attracted to bad boys big time. I think in part because I am a geeky girl. They have a *uck-it kind of attitude that I lack. Plus...tattoos, piercings, motorcycles, mmmmmm.... But maybe being an *ss-hole is something you think you could never be and there's something about that personality trait that you unconsciously admire. Totally projecting on you but I know this is true for me. And I think it's something I need to recognize about myself in order to avoid bad boys.


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## always_alone

ocotillo said:


> Did you ever fall head over heels for someone? Did your heart quicken just at the thought of that person?
> 
> I'm not trying to argue here. I'm curious myself how much of love/bonding/attraction is chemical.


Let's say that I have: Does it follow from this that attraction is chemical?

I'm not really a "head over heels" kind of person generally speaking, although I have encountered a few where I just knew that there was something there, something special or unique pulling us together.

Was that chemicals? I'm not convinced. If it were, wouldn't there have been a corresponding compatibility, if not long term, at least in the moment? Yet, thinking back, I'm inclined to say the nature of the pull was much more about harsh life lessons, than biological compatibility.

I think we see more about people than we are really aware of, and that this is a key source of our desires and attractions, moreso than the superficialities or simple biology that we usually focus on.


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## ocotillo

always_alone said:


> Let's say that I have: Does it follow from this that attraction is chemical?


Well no, not necessarily. I was thinking more of the feeling of being, "In love" than initial attraction and the reasoning was that since autonomic responses like heart rate, perspiration, etc. seem to be governed more by chemistry than volition, that chemistry does enter into the picture at some point. _Something_ is triggering those responses.





always_alone said:


> I think we see more about people than we are really aware of, and that this is a key source of our desires and attractions, moreso than the superficialities or simple biology that we usually focus on.


That's a very interesting thought.


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## always_alone

ocotillo said:


> Well no, not necessarily. I was thinking more of the feeling of being, "In love" than initial attraction and the reasoning was that since autonomic responses like heart rate, perspiration, etc. seem to be governed more by chemistry than volition, that chemistry does enter into the picture at some point. _Something_ is triggering those responses.


Definitely, chemicals have to enter into it at some point, as we humans really are those ugly bags made of mostly water.

But, IMHO, it's worth looking at the direction of the causal arrow. What triggers perspiration, heart rate, etc? Is it the chemicals? Or are those chemicals themselves being triggered in response to a situation?

For example, I'm not afraid because of chemicals; I'm afraid of the giant boa constrictor wrapped around me. 

So am I "in love" because of my chemicals? Or because of the warmth and good feeling wrapped around me?


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## ocotillo

always_alone said:


> But, IMHO, it's worth looking at the direction of the causal arrow. What triggers perspiration, heart rate, etc? Is it the chemicals? Or are those chemicals themselves being triggered in response to a situation?



Maybe some of both? The heart speeds up in response to epinephrine which is something the ancients didn't understand. It was easy to mistake a heart pounding out of love or fear of anger as the actual source of emotion, rather than simply one of many organs affected by it. So in that sense, I would say that chemicals are triggering it. But I'd also agree with you that those chemicals are released in response to external stimuli, so I do take your point about fear of a constrictor wrapped around you. 

I'm honestly not sure if that's a complete picture though. It's normal to be wary of animals that can harm you, but we know that fear of snakes very often doesn't follow a rational pattern and that people who've developed full blown phobias have usually gotten to that point over the course of some time. So with fear, it does seem like there is something in the way of feedback going on, allowing the process to feed on itself and get stronger each time. (I sure hope I'm not rambling in your field here )


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## always_alone

ocotillo said:


> I'm honestly not sure if that's a complete picture though. It's normal to be wary of animals that can harm you, but we know that fear of snakes very often doesn't follow a rational pattern and that people who've developed full blown phobias have usually gotten to that point over the course of some time. So with fear, it does seem like there is something in the way of feedback going on, allowing the process to feed on itself and get stronger each time. (I sure hope I'm not rambling in your field here )


It's true of all fears isn't it? There is often a rationality behind them, but they can also be quite irrational and built up to epic proportions by an active imagination.

You can also learn to overcome them, and you can learn to better understand a day manage the risks, so the actual threat is less. There are snake charmers and lion tamers too.

IMHO, it's not so much feedback, but a whole system response. Perception is multi-sensory, and not just because of the different types of incoming data, but because of the way the world is approached, interpreted, and taken up.


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## tacoma

ocotillo said:


> I'm not trying to argue here. I'm curious myself how much of love/bonding/attraction is chemical.


All of it.



> Oxytocin (Oxt, /ˌɒksɨˈtoʊsɪn/) is a mammalian neurohypophysial hormone (produced by the hypothalamus. Stored and secreted by the posterior pituitary gland) that acts primarily as a neuromodulator in the brain.
> 
> Oxytocin plays an important role in the neuroanatomy of intimacy, specifically in sexual reproduction, in particular during and after childbirth. It is released in large amounts after distension of the cervix and uterus during labor, facilitating birth, maternal bonding, and, after stimulation of the nipples, lactation. Both childbirth and milk ejection result from positive feedback mechanisms.[1]
> 
> Recent studies have begun to investigate oxytocin's role in various behaviors, including orgasm, social recognition, pair bonding, anxiety, and maternal behaviors.[2] For this reason, it is sometimes referred to as the "bonding hormone". There is some evidence that oxytocin promotes ethnocentric behavior, incorporating the trust and empathy of in-groups with their suspicion and rejection of outsiders.[3] Furthermore, genetic differences in the oxytocin receptor gene (OXTR) have been associated with maladaptive social traits such as aggressive behaviour.[4]
> 
> Oxytocin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## MYM1430

Men do emotionally bond through sex. I think of it like glue. If you use just a little, it will hold but it tkes a while to dry and it may not be that strong. The more you use, the better the bond. However, if you have ever had a kid creation on the fridge for a while, you will notice that things that were glued on start to fall away. Then you need to get the glue out again to get it to stick. To many men, a one night stand doesn't give the glue time to bond. It just leaves a sticky mess.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ocotillo

always_alone said:


> IMHO, it's not so much feedback, but a whole system response. Perception is multi-sensory, and not just because of the different types of incoming data, but because of the way the world is approached, interpreted, and taken up.


I think you're probably correct here. In regard to the original question, I do know that the feeling of being, "In love" fades away in the absence of physical contact. (And I'm not just talking about sex here.) I don't know whether that's chemical or psychological, but the effect is very real. My wife and I have fallen in and out of love more than once over the years.


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## always_alone

ocotillo said:


> I think you're probably correct here. In regard to the original question, I do know that the feeling of being, "In love" fades away in the absence of physical contact. (And I'm not just talking about sex here.) I don't know whether that's chemical or psychological, but the effect is very real. My wife and I have fallen in and out of love more than once over the years.


No doubt physical contact has a huge role to play in psychological health and well-being. And not just for humans!

But I'm less sure how that translates to being "in love" -- maybe because I'm not always clear what we mean by it.

It's interesting that you say you and your wife have fallen in and out of love over the years. What holds you together when you're not in love? And what rekindles the flame? Is it always physical contact?


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## ocotillo

always_alone said:


> It's interesting that you say you and your wife have fallen in and out of love over the years. What holds you together when you're not in love?


When you strip love/romance/sex away, my wife and I are still like, "Peas and carrots." (To plagiarize Forest Gump.)



always_alone said:


> And what rekindles the flame?


For me it is physical contact. The more intimate the better, but just holding hands on an evening stroll is still nice. Without that, the relationship becomes like living with a sibling. I wish I could get her on here to explain exactly what it is for her.


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## LongWalk

It's very hard for me to understand why couples who don't have good sex lives get married. But reading about them here on TAM shows that selfish genes can outsmart the brain.

A semi-stable and unfulfilling marriage may be enough to keep the children fed and safe if not 100% emotionally secure.


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## Created2Write

I really do thank my lucky stars that I found the man I did. There's very little in our relationship that I'm unhappy with, and those things are really very minor issues compared to what we could be facing. And I'm sure he's lucky to have found me. 

I know that, in our relationship, the emotional bond is strengthened each and every time we have sex, each and every time we cuddle, each and every time we do something fun together, each and every time we sit and talk, each and every time we encourage each other. If we don't cuddle enough, the bond starts to feel weak for both of us. If we don't spend enough time together, the bond starts to feel weak. If we don't have sex often enough, the bond starts to feel weak.


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## ocotillo

Created2Write said:


> If we don't cuddle enough, the bond starts to feel weak for both of us. If we don't spend enough time together, the bond starts to feel weak. If we don't have sex often enough, the bond starts to feel weak.


Quoted for truth.


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## always_alone

ocotillo said:


> For me it is physical contact. The more intimate the better, but just holding hands on an evening stroll is still nice. Without that, the relationship becomes like living with a sibling. I wish I could get her on here to explain exactly what it is for her.


I find physical contact hugely important, but not necessarily a bond builder. It feels good, to be sure, but when all's said and done, it's the same as before.

What keeps us together? I've been asking myself this, and it's perhaps a bit like you say, peas and carrots. Although, honestly, I've no idea if he is actually bonded to me at all. My guess is he could pick up a new gf at my funeral -- or if he's in more of a hurry, on Facebook.


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## SimplyAmorous

firebelly1 said:


> I think this is a good rule of thumb Vega.
> 
> In re: *geeky girls. I'm one of those and I am attracted to bad boys big time. I think in part because I am a geeky girl. They have a *uck-it kind of attitude that I lack. Plus...tattoos, piercings, motorcycles, mmmmmm.... But maybe being an *ss-hole is something you think you could never be and there's something about that personality trait that you unconsciously admire.* Totally projecting on you but I know this is true for me. And I think it's something I need to recognize about myself in order to avoid bad boys.


I've read a few books on temperaments.. it's very common for us to be attracted -like a magnet to those who possess the traits we personally lack in ourselves.....it is something we find we ADMIRE in our partner...

I know this is very true of me and my H....I am more the "take charge, let's get it done..decisive choleric.....a little aggressiveness comes rather natural.. ...then he is the Laid Back, patient ...dry humored ...that stable breeze... phlegmatic....he makes fun of me- when I get a little wired... I laugh.. and darn, I admire his patience sometimes .. I could use some of that !

And he is attracted to women like me.. He calls me his "roller derby woman"! What can you do... the main thing is ..that *love* and *respect* is going forth in these unions.. if that takes a dive, it all crumbles..


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## ocotillo

always_alone said:


> I find physical contact hugely important, but not necessarily a bond builder. It feels good, to be sure, but when all's said and done, it's the same as before.


AA, do you accept any of the brain chemistry explanations for human behavior? Does any of this article ring true for you or do you think it's all hogwash?

I was thinking yesterday about my involvement in a local hot chili club. We get together and sample and exchange foods that would put the average person flat on the ground. One of the theories about how people get to be like this is that brain chemicals released in response to the sensation of extreme heat in the mouth produce a sense of euphoria that is mildly addictive. 

The sensation itself is temporary, but the fondness that develops for the food is much more permanent. This is admittedly a very crude analogy, but it does smack of the memory/pleasure loop that some claim exists in our heads.




always_alone said:


> What keeps us together? I've been asking myself this, and it's perhaps a bit like you say, peas and carrots. Although, honestly, I've no idea if he is actually bonded to me at all. My guess is he could pick up a new gf at my funeral -- or if he's in more of a hurry, on Facebook.


Do you think that's actual reality or could this just be insecurity speaking? It's not possible to even replace a beloved family pet, let alone an SO. Losing a person that close absolutely destroys people.


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## always_alone

ocotillo said:


> AA, do you accept any of the brain chemistry explanations for human behavior? Does any of this article ring true for you or do you think it's all hogwash?


It's not that I think it's hogwash; neurophysiology has some interesting things to say. It's that I doubt the value of it as explanation.

In this age of biological determinism, it seems that as soon as a biological component is identified, it somehow "explains" the behaviour, and no further discussion is needed. "Oh so chemicals are involved? Well then, it must all be chemical." I find this unsatisfactory, especially given how many different things these chemicals are involved in, combined with individual variation in how each individual is affected by/reacts to these chemicals.




ocotillo said:


> Do you think that's actual reality or could this just be insecurity speaking? It's not possible to even replace a beloved family pet, let alone an SO. Losing a person that close absolutely destroys people.


Sometimes, sure, but it's not like my SO hasn't been in LTR before. He has, and managed to replace them with me. Why should I imagine that I won't be similarly replaced?

My uncle was married to my aunt for 50 years. When she died, he had replaced her within weeks.


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## firebelly1

I think the chemical question is a chicken or egg thing. Does touch release chemicals or do the chemicals make you want to touch? I don't know...but this whole discussion has me wondering what being in love is. What love is. Whether you can love someone right away. 

I had this debate with a friend the other day. I've been kind of buying into the idea that logically you can't love someone as soon as you meet them but he thought you could, which sort of made me tap into my romantic side which has always believed you could.

You can and do connect with some people shortly after meeting them. I can think of a few people right now that I know would be good life partners and who I have affection for despite not knowing them very well or very intimately. Is that "love"? I'm high jacking my own thread.


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## always_alone

firebelly1 said:


> You can and do connect with some people shortly after meeting them. I can think of a few people right now that I know would be good life partners and who I have affection for despite not knowing them very well or very intimately. Is that "love"? I'm high jacking my own thread.


It's your thread, so you can do whatever you want with it!

But what you're saying is kind of what I meant when I said that we can often see a lot more about people than we are aware of. This doesn't mean our judgments are always correct or that we always make good choices -- just that we aren't necessarily working blind just because we don't know that person very well.


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## Dayhiker

For me the answer is both. It really depends on the partner. I've had a couple partners (wife especially) where it did/does. Others not so much.


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## jaharthur

ebp123 said:


> Men don't talk about how funny or smart or clever or insightful their women are. They don't care. They care about her sex drive and how physically hot she is. As long as she's not dumb or psycho, they find the best they can get if you know what I mean.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm late to this party, but: BS in the extreme.

This is true of some men, but I doubt I am the only one for whom it is untrue. Although I have to admit that sometimes reading threads on TAM I start to think we might be on the endangered species list.


----------

