# Sexually Incompatible after 18 years?



## MrVanilla (Apr 24, 2012)

When my wife and I first started out as a couple (each of us once divorced) our sex life was calm: a frequency of once or twice a week, and nothing other than straight intercourse. This continued until our first child came and because of health factors her Doctor changed her birth control. 

She experienced the rarest of reactions to this, and lost all desire for any intimacy. Quite literally - she did not want to be touched _at all_. Sex wasn’t even an option. She remained on this routine for ten years. So… we didn’t have sex for ten years. The lack of sex didn’t bother as much as the loss of intimacy, but I dealt with it, and I did not step out. 

Last spring the Doc changed her birth control again. Three months after she was off the old, her physical desires returned with vigor. These feelings of hers were so strong that she began asking things of me that I had never heard of before. Suddenly she’s confessing all these ‘activities’ that she used to engage in before we ever met, and now she’s suggesting that I do these 'things' with/to her.

Now… ahem… slow down just a second. 

I just spent a decade turning my body to the off position and now she wants it flipped over to on – right now! Well, that just didn’t happen. My 52 year old body did not react or work like it did ten years ago when we were having our semi-weekly vanilla sex. -Let alone trying out any of these new-to-me suggestions- To be perfectly honest, I’m still shocked at the things she’s asking to do. I’ve never had anyone ask for any of this, nor have I ever been interested in any of it _at all_. I’m somewhat horrified. 

So we talked about all of this, and we spoke a lot because I had huge trouble understanding half of what she was talking about, and I’m still very, very, uncomfortable with trying any of the things she’s asking me to do. She said “You can ask me anything.” but the more I inquired, the quieter she got… and soon she began refusing to answer questions. So I’ve just stopped asking them. 

None of this communicating changed anything. I still have absolutely no desire or interest what-so-ever in these new things, and what’s worse… is our ‘normal’ (to us) sex has become more physically difficult for me to be ‘excited’ about. 

Suggestions? Because I don’t see this playing out well. Either I continue to not be interested in these new things, and she remains unfulfilled, or: I do things I do not want to do, and she is satisfied; or I just pack up and go. Yet none of these seem to be a working solution?

Thanks for reading. =)


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## reset button (Mar 14, 2012)

Damned birth control strikes again.....
Happened to me too but only bad for 2-3 years and now awesome for last 3+ years.

Hubby was only 35 at time and more than willing to keep up with anything I can't think up, and do it twice just to be sure we got it right

I am not sure what advice to give you in the way of her "special requests" but I will tell you that she has had a sudden realization of all the good years of sex she has missed out on and is trying to make up for it. I think the "kinky" stuff will fade, but her drive will remain high as mine did.

I know at first with my husband it was a little physically taxing since it truely is like starting a new fitness routine. He went from "expending himself" once every 6 weeks to 6x per week with requests of 2x in a row some weekends. (which btw took about a year for him to be able to do again, used to be able when we were first married, but kinda fell out of practice) lol

Good luck and be patient, I sympathize with her and commend you for reaching out to support her needs.

If you can compromise the renewed intimacy is priceless.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Sounds like some resentment on your part. You need to figure out how you can let some of that go.


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## MrVanilla (Apr 24, 2012)

reset button said:


> I am not sure what advice to give you in the way of her "special requests" but I will tell you that she has had a sudden realization of all the good years of sex she has missed out on and is trying to make up for it. I think the "kinky" stuff will fade, but her drive will remain high as mine did.


I'm trying to reach out!! But I'm wondering if all these 'new requests' are making me turn tail and run. She asked "Didn't you ever experiment?" and um... _No_. I've never had any need/want for any experimentation?

It isn't necessarily 'kinky' stuff. She asked about receiving oral from me. This isn't something I want to do. It's not something I have ever wanted to do and I have never asked for it for myself. I -personally- have no interest at all and find the idea a huge turn-off. I did try it once, when I was 19? and had a _horrible_ experience. I've been told that oral is 'normal' as are perhaps a few other things, but if I believe that - then I have to admit that I'm not at all normal. =( and this may be the case.



Tall Average Guy said:


> Sounds like some resentment on your part. You need to figure out how you can let some of that go.


I've thought a lot about this, wondering what it might be that I am resentful of... if anything? and I can't figure it out. If there is anything, I'm not very _comfortable_ in the fact that I'm just now hearing about all this after 18 years... but I rationally know that it doesn't change who she is at all, or how I feel.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

MrVanilla said:


> I'm trying to reach out!! But I'm wondering if all these 'new requests' are making me turn tail and run. She asked "Didn't you ever experiment?" and um... _No_. I've never had any need/want for any experimentation?
> 
> It isn't necessarily 'kinky' stuff. She asked about receiving oral from me. This isn't something I want to do. It's not something I have ever wanted to do and I have never asked for it for myself. I -personally- have no interest at all and find the idea a huge turn-off. I did try it once, when I was 19? and had a _horrible_ experience. I've been told that oral is 'normal' as are perhaps a few other things, but if I believe that - then I have to admit that I'm not at all normal. =( and this may be the case.


I had a terrible steak at a restuarant one time. Does that mean that all steak is awful, or that I am not normal?

One bad experience is just that - one bad experience. Your wife is reaching out to you to try things together and improve your bond. You can sit there, refusing to compromise and reject her, or you can work with her to figure out what works for the two of you.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

MrVanilla said:


> I've thought a lot about this, wondering what it might be that I am resentful of... if anything? and I can't figure it out. If there is anything, I'm not very _comfortable_ in the fact that I'm just now hearing about all this after 18 years... but I rationally know that it doesn't change who she is at all, or how I feel.


I am just throwing this out there, but may be it is because she rejected you for ten years, thereby destroying your sex drive. No matter how nicely put, I can't imagine that was easy to take (let alone the loss of intimacy). 

Now, you are expected to just turn it on because she now wants you to. You mean to tell me you are not the slightest bit resentful that she decides when you can have sex and when you can't and that it is solely on her schedule?


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

I might be off base so sorry if I am.



sounds like the things she is ask for are things she has done before you guys married. and maybe part of her shutting down for all those years was your sexual hang ups. 

If i were you I would try to use this new found interest and honesty to become closer with your wife and share some true intamacy.

start off slow. have you been masterbating all thease year? do you have any sex drive at all. tell her your just so suprised that it will take time for you to get reved up again. Try keeping an open mind about the things she is sugesting. oral,anal,or whatever try it with an open mind read up on human sexuality. 

maybe see a sex therapist. But if I were you I'd be jumping for joy you could have quite an adventure ahead of you if you willing to open up. 

goodluck you lucky dog.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

she been embarrassed all these years to tell you what she really liked now that she has opened up don't blow it.


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## Havesomethingtosay (Nov 1, 2011)

Pathetic...... 10 years no intimacy whatsoever and all because of BC pills? Are you that naive? You never talked about it or 10 friggin years!!!!!! And now oh my god she wants oral and you're disgusted????? So sorry but that's not vanilla, that's tofu (or gelatin).... Grow a pair or prepare for her to find it elsewhere.....


Sometimes you gotta be direct and blunt.....


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## MrVanilla (Apr 24, 2012)

Thanks for so many responses! =) 

*except for maybe that one^ n/m - ignore list! Yes!*

Let me make one thing very clear. The drugs altered her sexual desire. Shut them down cold. I had nothing to do with it!! It's a documented and known side-affect in less than 5% of the women who that use that particular method of birth control.

*and no, I won't mention which one here in public!*


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

what exactly do you not like about these new sex activities?

sex is supost to be about giving eachother pleasure and you should feel safe about comunicating your desires to the one you love.

with that said if you truley have tried and still can't do atleast some of the things she desire then maybe you guy are not compatible


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## MrVanilla (Apr 24, 2012)

It's a difficult road I find myself on. On one hand yes, I want her to be happy, on the other she's asking for things I not comfortable with. I know it has to do with this resurgence of desire from being off that drug. 

And, I'm fairly certain that no one here really believes that a person should be pressured into doing sex things that they do not want to do and are not comfortable doing. 

There are all kinds of different people in the world - and I'm one of them. I'm not right, I'm not wrong, I'm just different and I can accept that. But I need to sleep with me at night, as much as I'd like to sleep with her. =)


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

If the birth control pills completely killed her sex drive I'm having trouble understanding why she was even on them? No sex is the most effective birth control there is. 

As to her requests, oral is a completely normal sex practice. What other request does she have that you find uncomfortable?


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## MrVanilla (Apr 24, 2012)

sandc said:


> If the birth control pills completely killed her sex drive I'm having trouble understanding why she was even on them? No sex is the most effective birth control there is.


It wasn't the pill! She wasn't allowed to return to the pill because of her age and other factors. All I will say is that it might have been administered twice a year... 



sandc said:


> As to her requests, oral is a completely normal sex practice. What other request does she have that you find uncomfortable?


There was oral, anal, and 'restrictions' and I had to research anal because I'd never heard of such a thing. Restrictions are _very_ difficult for me, because I do not enjoy seeing anyone that way, but given that list, it's the least offensive to me and I can -with some emotional discomfort- manage it.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

MrVanilla said:


> There was oral, anal, and 'restrictions' and I had to research anal because I'd never heard of such a thing. Restrictions are _very_ difficult for me, because I do not enjoy seeing anyone that way, but given that list, it's the least offensive to me and I can -with some emotional discomfort- manage it.


I can't speak to anal or 'restrictions', but as for oral I'd say give it some time. I liked it in theory, but it took me a while to really get into the swing of it in practice. Important thing is to relax and have fun watching/feeling her respond to you. The more relaxed and fun you have with oral sex, the more she'll enjoy it. Don't be afraid to keep caressing her while you learn, I know my wife likes multiple sources of stimulation at the same time.

As for your situation overall, sounds like there's just a ton to get used to. It might help too, when trying something new, to visualize it in your mind before hand. That way you might get over some of the shock value for new things before you're with her.

Sounds like you are already researching things on the web, which is really important. You might find some tips/tricks on these very forums, which might help you go in with some confidence as well.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

Not to sound course but you could ask her to shave prior to you going down on her. It will keep the hair from tickling your nose. Or... is it just me that this happens to? :scratchhead:


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## MrVanilla (Apr 24, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I had a terrible steak at a restuarant one time. Does that mean that all steak is awful, or that I am not normal?
> 
> One bad experience is just that - one bad experience. Your wife is reaching out to you to try things together and improve your bond. You can sit there, refusing to compromise and reject her, or you can work with her to figure out what works for the two of you.


TAG: Thank you for this. 

Yet if the only steak I _ever_ had was that terrible, I don't have to have it again. This is my choice as an adult. I don't need steak to live. I wasn't all that keen on trying it the first time and I've never wanted to try it since. The very thought of it makes me physically uncomfortable and somewhat nauseas. _Gimmie a second dear to get a bucket to throw up in and I'll be ready_... I just don't think that would go over well... 



sandc said:


> If the birth control pills completely killed her sex drive I'm having trouble understanding why she was even on them?


This wasn't the pill. She was told she had no other options and yes we did talk about it, often - but when the side-effect is not wanting to be touched at all... that's what she wanted.



sandc said:


> As to her requests, oral is a completely normal sex practice.


I never imagined this was completely normal practice. In all of my sexual history I was only asked about this once. (I've only had a string of monogamous relationships because I have never been able to engage in sexual activity without considerable emotional investment.) 

However, in her disclosures of the activities she had prior to our meeting, she says that I'm the only one that hasn't done this, and I still find that shocking.



Browncoat said:


> As for your situation overall, sounds like there's just a ton to get used to. It might help too, when trying something new, to visualize it in your mind before hand.


I have no intention of ever trying oral again and forget anal, that will never-ever be an option. 

Compromise involves a give and take, this doesn't seem to be a give-and-take situation. This is just take. There's only: Honey, I want you to do things you find physically revolting.

Where's the compromise in that?


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## Havesomethingtosay (Nov 1, 2011)

Both divorced and neither naive but with a huge hurdle. Mr. Vanilla I find it incredibly funny & sad at the same time that you are so set in your ways and allowed something like this for 10 years. You are naive to believe this was due to this BC method that you claim to have discussed many times. You did not seek out a second opinion, go to appointments, talk to the doctors, research the net, suggest counseling...... You did not jump up and down screaming this is absolutely wrong and unacceptable? All I can say is wow. 

There are many here who will tell you to do some snooping as she has probably been cheating on you for a # of years and something happened and she has now come back.

To have infrequent & lousy sex at the beginning (and I will tell you with a great deal of confidence without being there that it was bad sex) and then absolutely none (touching included) the last 10 years tells me there is much more to this.

Add to that your attitude and comments on this thread indicates nothing will improve with your attitude.


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## reset button (Mar 14, 2012)

Havesomethingtosay said:


> Both divorced and neither naive but with a huge hurdle. Mr. Vanilla I find it incredibly funny & sad at the same time that you are so set in your ways and allowed something like this for 10 years. You are naive to believe this was due to this BC method that you claim to have discussed many times. You did not seek out a second opinion, go to appointments, talk to the doctors, research the net, suggest counseling...... You did not jump up and down screaming this is absolutely wrong and unacceptable? All I can say is wow.
> 
> *There are many here who will tell you to do some snooping as she has probably been cheating on you for a # of years and something happened and she has now come back.*
> To have infrequent & lousy sex at the beginning (and I will tell you with a great deal of confidence without being there that it was bad sex) and then absolutely none (touching included) the last 10 years tells me there is much more to this.
> ...


I just wanted to go on the record that I too had this affect from birth control pills, and went to two doctors because of my symptoms of low sex drive, weight gain, not wanting affection, lack of drive to do anything social etc... was told it "ABSOLUTELY DID NOT" have anything to do with taking birth control from both doctors. Albeit my husband did make a fuss about and we decided I stop taking them anyway to see. This lasted about 2 years for us.

I find it VERY offensive that you are telling this man his wife is a cheater soley based on a change in her sex drive. Women's sex drives change throughout their lives without the help of synthetic hormones anyway. I NEVER cheated on my husband nor would I ever, you are openign up a can of worms for NO reason at this point.


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## Havesomethingtosay (Nov 1, 2011)

reset button said:


> I just wanted to go on the record that I too had this affect from birth control pills, and went to two doctors because of my symptoms of low sex drive, weight gain, not wanting affection, lack of drive to do anything social etc... was told it "ABSOLUTELY DID NOT" have anything to do with taking birth control from both doctors. Albeit my husband did make a fuss about and we decided I stop taking them anyway to see. This lasted about 2 years for us.
> 
> I find it VERY offensive that you are telling this man his wife is a cheater soley based on a change in her sex drive. Women's sex drives change throughout their lives without the help of synthetic hormones anyway. I NEVER cheated on my husband nor would I ever, you are openign up a can of worms for NO reason at this point.



I said many here immediately point to cheating. Please read my post clearly, which you did because you highlighted it..... I also stated that they waited 10 years!!!!! What is wrong with condoms and again the question is why when you don't have sex for 10 years to even bother taking BC pills? Add to that if there are side affects not to do everything possible to address and find answers to this issue.


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## MrVanilla (Apr 24, 2012)

Havesomethingtosay said:


> Both divorced and neither naive but with a huge hurdle. Mr. Vanilla I find it incredibly funny & sad at the same time that you are so set in your ways and allowed something like this for 10 years. You are naive to believe this was due to this BC method that you claim to have discussed many times. You did not seek out a second opinion, go to appointments, talk to the doctors, research the net, suggest counseling...... You did not jump up and down screaming this is absolutely wrong and unacceptable? All I can say is wow.


HSTS: Since you have taken time to give this some thought and commentary, I feel obligated to allow a polite response. 

It is impossible to change what has passed. I can not go back and alter it. It is what it is. Your personal opinion on the history of the course of these events, although entertaining in it’s amazing inventiveness! - does not address the issue at hand. 

I realize that it may be very difficult for a certain group of individuals to fully comprehend this, so I will try my best to simplify it: 

My ex-wife and the LOML’s ex-husband, either did not understand, or choose to ignore the basic principles of a dedicated relationship. Ideals such as commitment, loyalty and honor were apparently optional to these people. 

My SO and I uphold these ideals. The phrase “in sickness and in health” actually means something to us. What it means to me is that I stand by my partner through everything that happens. This basic tenet of trust is mandatory for the two of us, and we are dedicated to it. 

The practical application of this meant that I stood by my love even though I didn’t get my wittle peepee rubbed every now and again.

Given these conditions as precursor, your thoughtful assertions become quite fallacious. -However!!- since I am hear to ask for guidance, I would be greatly honored if you would perhaps consider viable commentary aimed at an agreeable solution to those things that can be changed. 

Thank you very much for taking the time. 

-MrV.


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## reset button (Mar 14, 2012)

Havesomethingtosay said:


> Both divorced and neither naive but with a huge hurdle. Mr. Vanilla I find it incredibly funny & sad at the same time that you are so set in your ways and allowed something like this for 10 years. *You are naive to believe this was due to this BC method that you claim to have discussed many times.* You did not seek out a second opinion, go to appointments, talk to the doctors, research the net, suggest counseling...... You did not jump up and down screaming this is absolutely wrong and unacceptable? All I can say is wow.
> 
> *There are many here who will tell you to do some snooping as she has probably been cheating on you for a # of years and something happened and she has now come back.*
> To have infrequent & lousy sex at the beginning (and I will tell you with a great deal of confidence without being there that it was bad sex) and then absolutely none (touching included) the last 10 years tells me there is much more to this.
> ...


I did read it... you are telling him he is *niave *to think it was from BC Pills, and then bring up cheating, if you did not agree with "others" on the cheating thing, you wouldn't have planted that idea in his head.

Alot of women are prescribed BC pills due to painful period or endometriosis etc... doesn't always have to do with preventing pregnancy.

Again, many doctors (as mine did) will tell you these issues are yours, and not a side affect of BC pills so you do not suspect them as the problem.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

MrVanilla said:


> I have no intention of ever trying oral again and forget anal, that will never-ever be an option.
> 
> Compromise involves a give and take, this doesn't seem to be a give-and-take situation. This is just take. There's only: Honey, I want you to do things you find physically revolting.
> 
> Where's the compromise in that?


Hi MrVanilla~

Marriage does involve compromise, sometimes it also involves sacrifice.

You mentioned that it involves give and take - with you thinking all your W wants to do is take. 

BUT, it doesn't appear from your words (or inaction) that you seem to be too willing to give.

What are you willing to give? Can you give of yourself freely with love and desire in your heart?

Sometimes if you can start out giving with your heart and giving wholeheartedly/enthusiastically - and you simply start with what you are comfortable with- the relationship will start to strengthen and flourish, and you find yourself willing to give more of yourself and willing to add some sprinkles on to that vanilla ... even in areas and with things that you may have been relunctant to in the past when the foundation of the relationship was shakier.

Enthusiasm and a giving spirit, even in the most simple of things - the most vanilla - is often contagious.

Best wishes.


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## discouraged1 (Mar 16, 2010)

MrVanilla said:


> When my wife and I first started out as a couple (each of us once divorced) our sex life was calm: a frequency of once or twice a week, and nothing other than straight intercourse. This continued until our first child came and because of health factors her Doctor changed her birth control.
> 
> She experienced the rarest of reactions to this, and lost all desire for any intimacy. Quite literally - she did not want to be touched _at all_. Sex wasn’t even an option. She remained on this routine for ten years. So… we didn’t have sex for ten years. The lack of sex didn’t bother as much as the loss of intimacy, but I dealt with it, and I did not step out.
> 
> ...


Mr. Vanilla I would like to introduce you to my wife Mrs. Vanilla.. wanna swap wives? Ha ha. JJ.
Wish I had some great advice here but I can only say that you and your wife should both consider the past and work towards meeting in the middle for the future. Both give and take.


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## MrVanilla (Apr 24, 2012)

Enchantment said:


> Hi MrVanilla~
> 
> Marriage does involve compromise, sometimes it also involves sacrifice.
> 
> ...



Hi Enchantment! =)

Thank you, in many ways these words of yours very clearly identify the dilemma. You are absolutely correct. If I did not have this strong commitment to the relationship... perhaps my thoughts would be considerably less confused! 

It's obvious to me that I'm willing to sacrifice. How many other men would have stayed true for ten years? So I think maybe I understand sacrifice?

Compromise means that neither of us get exactly what we want. So, when I break down this issue: she wants me to do things she finds pleasurable, and I find these same things physically and mentally repugnant. 

So I am at a loss. I cannot wave a wand and *instantly* overcome what I find terribly distasteful, in as much as I can magically create desire out of thin air. Yet, I want so much to please her.

That is the crux of the dilemma. 

When you feel forced into making a decision as to whether or not you are willing to sacrifice your own personal standards of behavior and self-esteem for the single and sole purpose of providing fleeting sexual experiences for your partner... 

Shouldn't I think this over and explore options?

*Do note that I chose the moniker 'MrVanilla' in an effort to constantly remind me of what I'm trying to work through!! =)*


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

MrVanilla said:


> TAG: Thank you for this.
> 
> Yet if the only steak I _ever_ had was that terrible, I don't have to have it again. This is my choice as an adult. I don't need steak to live. I wasn't all that keen on trying it the first time and I've never wanted to try it since. The very thought of it makes me physically uncomfortable and somewhat nauseas. _Gimmie a second dear to get a bucket to throw up in and I'll be ready_... I just don't think that would go over well...


Are you saying that nothing about you has changed since that one experience? That you completely the same? I tend to doubt that. Your tastes have almsot certainly changed (in clothing, food, activities, you name it). So how can you be certain you won't like it this time? So certain that you would withhold it from your wife even though it is something she wants?

To be clear, you are absolutely correct that it is your choice. But choices have consequences. Think about what is important and whether you certainty is really the right course.

Also, you glossed over my comments on resentment. Any of that hit close to home?


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## Jeff/BC (Apr 1, 2012)

*thought removed... didn't read carefully enough*


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## MrVanilla (Apr 24, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> So how can you be certain you won't like it this time? So certain that you would withhold it from your wife even though it is something she wants?


In words and thought, you have constructed a very have a valid point. It is one have considered. My personal issue with trying this again would be mentally overcoming the accommodating physical nausea. I have kidded her in this regard and told her to get me three sheets to the wind and we'll see what happens!  It may be the best I can do.



Tall Average Guy said:


> To be clear, you are absolutely correct that it is your choice. But choices have consequences. Think about what is important and whether you certainty is really the right course.


Choices do have consequences. I really wish she had seriously reconsidered asking any of these things. *note: this obvious deflection will be better addressed below* 



Tall Average Guy said:


> Also, you glossed over my comments on resentment. Any of that hit close to home?


My sincere apologies TAG. I did not realize that you felt I had glossed over this. 

Certainly there may be some resentments - but it's about past incidents, and I'm trying not linger on any ill feelings of things I cannot change. Yes, _of course_ I wonder sometimes if I would have continued this relationship if these sexual expectations had been clearly identified X number of years ago. But I ask you - what good would it be to hold any resentment now? I wasn't being facetious when I quoted your 'Choices do have consequences'. It was her choice to hide all this away for this long. 

I'm doing what I can to deal with that choice, and am trying my best not to harbor any resentments as I proceed, but yes, if I think about it, it does irk me some.


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## MrVanilla (Apr 24, 2012)

Jeff/BC said:


> before I make a suggestion, I'd like to know whether your horror is religiously motivated or is it simply a lack of exposure to these shocking things? I mean fundamentally, if your religion tells you that anything other than missionary is a sin then so it is and you must treat it accordingly. If, on the other hand, you're just shocked because you are as vanilla and naive as I was, then that can be dealt with.


I have no religious motivations. For the most part, I have never been exposed to any of these activities, and yes, they are shocking! 

Thank you so much for recognizing that. 

I should also note that I consider naive, repressed, and hung-up as meaningless modifiers. Every individual has their own weight of importance to their sexual activity. Collectively these weights can be placed on a bell curve. Each individual also has their own preferences of activities, which can also be charted. For any person that considers themselves having a healthy sex life: there is no good or bad for your position on those curves. There is only _different_, and I respect those differences. =)


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

MrVanilla said:


> My sincere apologies TAG. I did not realize that you felt I had glossed over this.
> 
> Certainly there may be some resentments - but it's about past incidents, and I'm trying not linger on any ill feelings of things I cannot change. Yes, _of course_ I wonder sometimes if I would have continued this relationship if these sexual expectations had been clearly identified X number of years ago. But I ask you - what good would it be to hold any resentment now? I wasn't being facetious when I quoted your 'Choices do have consequences'. It was her choice to hide all this away for this long.
> 
> I'm doing what I can to deal with that choice, and am trying my best not to harbor any resentments as I proceed, but yes, if I think about it, it does irk me some.


Interesting. My question about resentment was directed toward her turning off sex for ten years then suddenly turning it on at her whim, not yours. In fact, I posted just that. Yet you ignore it and continue to go back to the acts she "hid" from you. No resentment on turning things off?

I agree that her choice to hide that has consquences. So what are they? Your tact seems to be since she hid them, you don't need to do them. Fair enough, but it has a strong likelihood to hurt your marriage. So what do you want the outcome to be? What does she want the outcome to be? Discuss and figure out a joint outcome and how to get there. If yo ucan't come to an agreement on a joint outcome, figure out what that means.


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## Jeff/BC (Apr 1, 2012)

Mr Vanilla
I agree that there is no right or wrong. When I said "naive" I meant it without judgement. I was pretty "naive" about human sexuality abot 5 years ago. What I mean by that is simply that there was a lot I did not know and a lot that I had never been exposed to.

I fully understand the shock factor. I've been there myself. The first time I heard a serious discussion in the real world about ... say ... The need to use tarps to control blood spatter in a SM scene my brain went into a tailspin. I just forced myself to keep looking until I really understood. But yeah, "shock" would be an understatement. For a while, the analogy I used was, "This is like deliberately holding your cheek against a belt sander." I still don't like such things myself, but at least I understand them now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

I think the pertinent question to answer is why did she need some kind of chemical birth control for 10 years if she was not having sex?

You may want to look into that.


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## Aristotle (Apr 4, 2012)

So she is on BC for 10 years and the marriage becomes sexless. Ironic, because if you guys turned sexless she didn't even need the BC. Also, why would you not switch BC? Why not insist on her switching BC. 

Anyway, if you think your woman's most intimate body part is "gross" and makes you want to vomit, I assume she is extremely miserable. I can't imagine living with my spouse and her thinking I was gross and she'd vomit if she had to lick me. That would make me feel like absolute garbage.

Red flag post for me. You had to look up anal to even see what it was? Sorry to be rude, because I get NOT WANTING TO ANAL, but not even knowing what it was? How old are you? 

What's unusual to me is naming yourself, "MrVanilla" (with a matching avatar, with the experience in ubb to use italics, obviously more internet savvy than most -- but had to research what anal was?). Honestly, I had no idea what Vanilla was until I was on a swinger site and they called "normal" dating sites, Vanilla. 

It feels like a gimmick almost to me. Sorry. It's like you've made yourself a vanilla super hero that thinks oral is icky and has no clue what anal is to stir up the forum. 

Maybe I am just getting old.


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## Havesomethingtosay (Nov 1, 2011)

What an angry poster. Admittedly if I went sexless for 10 years I'd be angry too......

Actually this is funniest threads I've encountered since Trying2figureitout was a regular.

I very much doubt the OP is interested in actual help as he has told us how gross the things his spouse is now talking about are and that there is no way he will do it.

HECK, I can't get past the 10 years and another poster understanding that some people need bc and that there were no alternatives. I am sure his wife had no issues with the bc considering how much fun their sex life probably was prior to choosing this method of bc. 

Think about the # of men who have posted asking about chemical castration to suppress their needs as their wives have cut them off and they won't cheat or divorce.

Btw Mr.Vanilla you didn't even answer the orgasm question, though the fact you had to look up what anal was, you may also need to look up what an orgasm is.......

Yes I'm a nasty sob......


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## Middle of Everything (Feb 19, 2012)

Aristotle said:


> So she is on BC for 10 years and the marriage becomes sexless. Ironic, because if you guys turned sexless she didn't even need the BC. Also, why would you not switch BC? Why not insist on her switching BC.
> 
> Anyway, if you think your woman's most intimate body part is "gross" and makes you want to vomit, I assume she is extremely miserable. I can't imagine living with my spouse and her thinking I was gross and she'd vomit if she had to lick me. That would make me feel like absolute garbage.
> 
> ...


I think you may be right. Troll

That or Amish, or raised on a desert island, or cloned and just released into society.


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## MrVanilla (Apr 24, 2012)

A very quick word. Before I posted anything to this site I sent a PM to the site admin with the following information. Yes, I am very familiar with this bbs, it's one of the reasons I chose this site, and that it could be possible that some members construe my questions as troll-like. 

I understand that sort of behavior because I have six years of experience on another site watching for spammers and trolls. I assure you I am real, the situation is real. I thank each one of you for your opinions. 

If there is anything I can do to quench this, I'm all for it.

MrV


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

I find it interesting in your original post you refer to the sex you have with your wife as "vanilla sex" yet you claim to not know anything about anal (you had to look it up according to a post of yours) and you profess horror at oral sex (giving or receiving). Vanilla sex has a very specific connotation in kinky communities. You knew that term, but act as though you're a babe in the woods regarding other sex acts. Something doesn't add up here...


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

rockyroad!

dirt trail!

mud highway!

lights on or off?

nipple constrictors.

ball gag.

just rambling here.


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## MrVanilla (Apr 24, 2012)

Coffee Amore said:


> I find it interesting in your original post you refer to the sex you have with your wife as "vanilla sex" yet you claim to not know anything about anal (you had to look it up according to a post of yours) and you profess horror at oral sex (giving or receiving). Vanilla sex has a very specific connotation in kinky communities. You knew that term, but act as though you're a babe in the woods regarding other sex acts. Something doesn't add up here...


I choose the user title of MrVanilla because it was my understanding that a person with a very limited sexual history as myself is often referred to as dull, boring, and vanilla. 

I have no clue what vanilla might mean in any 'kinky community' and yes, I had a single awful oral experience that pretty much convinced me that I never want to do that again. My personal experiences would most certainly put me in your 'babe in the woods' definition, and that one oral experience is probably as 'experimental' as I ever got. 

It took a long, long, time for my LOML to get me to talk about that incident, but now that I have opened up to it, I can be honest about it. 

I heard jokes about anal intercourse throughout my life, but I did not know that people actually did this and enjoyed it. I had to look that up. The 2011 Indiana University sexuality study was a very real eye-opener for me. 

One point, I have received oral sex many years ago and yes it was pleasurable, but I have never asked for it. After my bad experience with trying to return the favor, I have not since asked for this and have turned it down because I knew I could not reciprocate. 

Ask anything, and I'll do my best to answer.

respectfully.

MrV.


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## Interlocutor (Dec 29, 2011)

MrVanilla said:


> A very quick word. Before I posted anything to this site I sent a PM to the site admin with the following information. Yes, I am very familiar with this bbs, it's one of the reasons I chose this site, and that it could be possible that some members construe my questions as troll-like.
> 
> I understand that sort of behavior because I have six years of experience on another site watching for spammers and trolls. I assure you I am real, the situation is real. I thank each one of you for


Strike two... Pay attention fellas.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Havesomethingtosay (Nov 1, 2011)

All I can say is I truly am sorry you have led such a sheltered life and are so out of touch. 

I doubt anything we can say or do will change anything and not sure whatsoever what you want posting here.

What your loml is expressing would be would be a treasured gift to 99% of men here. To think you have been so sheltered and out of touch for 36 years (ages 16 to 52) and sexless for 10 years is plain sad.

Your response though is equally disturbing as you have posted but have no interest in doing anything.

By the way do you know what a female orgasm is? I am serious. Heck your wife may not know either considering the way you talk and post.


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## MrVanilla (Apr 24, 2012)

Interlocutor said:


> Strike two... Pay attention fellas.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Interlocutor.

You are right. I composed a PM to Mike the very first thing, and hit send, just like I tried to do for you just now, and...
apparently I can't send pms, and it never occured to me to check.

Sorry. I feel like an idiot now.

I would think I was troll too. 

I think it's best I step away for a little while.
Thank you, each of you, for your kindness.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

the amish might be looking for some new members,you would fit right in you know sex is for porcreation not recreation.

I'm not going to try it you try it........lets get Mikey he'll eat it he eats everything. hey mikey he likes it.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

LadyFrogFlyAway said:


> You typed "porcreation" instead of "procreation", and when I first read it I thought it said porNcreation! :rofl:


sorry spelling anit my strong suit. but porncreation sounds fun with the right women.


:smthumbup:


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## Aristotle (Apr 4, 2012)

MrVanilla said:


> Interlocutor.
> 
> You are right. I composed a PM to Mike the very first thing, and hit send, just like I tried to do for you just now, and...
> apparently I can't send pms, and it never occured to me to check.
> ...


I actually believed you all they way up until you said you didn't know what anal was, yet your name was Vanilla. 

You wouldn't have had to look up anal. Real good post though, took it a bit too far with the naive act. I really like the role reversal though, especially with oral sex.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

chillymorn said:


> rockyroad!
> 
> dirt trail!
> 
> ...


The Chill man in rocking the house!! :rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

OP It is a shock going from zero to 120 in one swoop. I think your wife is being unrealistic and unfair to expect you to turn on a dime. She married you - you were honest she apparently was not. 

I don't think that it is loving to get sexual pleasure making someone do what they don't like. I really can't see how she could orgasm knowing you dislike what you are doing. 

I see no reason why you cannot just ease into sex and do what you are comfortable with. Perhaps if she is loving and accepting of you there may be things you want to try. No one can jump right into the middle of the pool. Go slowly and don't do anything you don't like. 

I'll bet you will discover that there are enough things that you will both find satisfying. If she is not happy with that then she should consider that she wants sex not mutually satisfying intimacy with you. You can't service her, you did not sign up for that. You cannot want to try anything if you don't feel safe and accepted by your wife. 

It is up to her to love you the way you need to be loved. I am not blaming her for the lull but it was largely due to her. You were patient and faithful for 10 l;one years. Cant she wait and be patient, faithful and loving for more than two minutes?


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

Catherine602 said:


> OP It is a shock going from zero to 120 in one swoop. I think your wife is being unrealistic and unfair to expect you to turn on a dime. She married you - you were honest she apparently was not.
> 
> I don't think that it is loving to get sexual pleasure making someone do what they don't like. I really can't see how she could orgasm knowing you dislike what you are doing.
> 
> ...


:iagree: but its all about attitude you have to be as open minded as you possibly can. 

sex is hard to talk about for some people. I know you got the birth control thing but I think she was probly dropping hints in the early stages of your marriage that you either ignored or didn't pick up on them and it frustrated her coupled with the bad birth control it was just eaiser to supress her drive because the sex you guys were having wasn't cutting it for her.

start with a clean slate do some reading on womens sexuality. try searching the net for videos of women having orgasms educate your self on how to use your hands and fingers make it your duty to be the best lover you can for her.while you are trying all the stuff you read about ask her in a sexy voice if she likes this or that. then be ready for her to do the same.

there is so much more to sex than penis vagina penetration.

and most women need clitoral stimulation to have an orgasm.

I though I was the man until one night years ago instead of just licking the box to get it wet enough to penatrae I just kept going and going and going and then she had the most powerfull orgasm that it shocked me. then the light bulb went off.

its quite exciting and an ego boost to bring a women to a screeming orgasm. try it you might like it.

oh and you don't have to use your mouth buy some lube and use your hands and fingers. take your time and don't stop until she cries uncle!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Havesomethingtosay (Nov 1, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> OP It is a shock going from zero to 120 in one swoop. I think your wife is being unrealistic and unfair to expect you to turn on a dime. She married you - you were honest she apparently was not.
> 
> I don't think that it is loving to get sexual pleasure making someone do what they don't like. I really can't see how she could orgasm knowing you dislike what you are doing.
> 
> ...


How is someone patient & faithful for 10 years!!!! Let's be honest here. Sex probably was so bad or indifferent, his wife shut down completely (or something more nefarious happened) and the bc helped in keeping any feelings in check (incredibly sad). MrVanilla did very little to address it (heck there was absolutely no affection or touching either) and she was happy with that tacit agreement (child, being a mother and a career being much more important). 

So now she has woke up and asked him to take the journey with him, and that means having sex that results in mutual satisfaction and excitement. 

We are talking oral, which says to me she probably has much trouble (and maybe never has with MrVanilla) orgasming. The other "acts" tells me she has been reawakened and wants to explore.

While I agree all can make a line in the sand, one where they will not cross, most here would jump in with a gusto to what his wife is requesting here.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Wait a second.

If you haven't has se in ten years, not even touching. Why was she on birth control. There wasnt any need fr it. None. So why did she use it?

Could it be that she was in an affair that did manysesl things and it's now ended and she's seeking to restart her relationship with you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MrsOldNews (Feb 22, 2012)

Havesomethingtosay said:


> How is someone patient & faithful for 10 years!!!! Let's be honest here. Sex probably was so bad or indifferent, his wife shut down completely (or something more nefarious happened) and the bc helped in keeping any feelings in check (incredibly sad). MrVanilla did very little to address it (heck there was absolutely no affection or touching either) and she was happy with that tacit agreement (child, being a mother and a career being much more important).
> 
> So now she has woke up and asked him to take the journey with him, and that means having sex that results in mutual satisfaction and excitement.
> 
> ...


I agree, very well put!


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

How do you know he was a bad lover and his wife stopped having sex because she was sexually dissatisfied?


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## Havesomethingtosay (Nov 1, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> How do you know he was a bad lover and his wife stopped having sex because she was sexually dissatisfied?


Absolutely right I don't know. Just an educated guess..... No sex or touching in 10 years, MrVanilla self admitted boring sex that was infrequent at best prior, a wife who was not inexperienced (once divorced), MrVanilla not answering questions about their arousal when asked, his disgust at oral (I will refrain from the other things she has asked for).......

Sorry that I jumped to conclusions.

You have a better explanation?


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I think if he left out the fact that he does not like oral his reception would not have been so rough. He did know that the TAM membership are orally fixated. 

Honestly, if I were a man I don't think I would like going down on a woman. Men's penises are elegant, clean and neat when freshly washed. Women bits are complicated and leaky eeewwww. 

Just kidding maybe


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## Havesomethingtosay (Nov 1, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> I think if he left out the fact that he does not like oral his reception would not have been so rough. He did know that the TAM membership are orally fixated.
> 
> Honestly, if I were a man I don't think I would like going down on a woman. Men's penises are elegant, clean and neat when freshly washed. Women bits are complicated and leaky eeewwww.
> 
> Just kidding maybe


And I'll bet his fingers also never go near that icky thing either...

C'mon Catherine602 let me know your thoughts and reasoning. BTW you have something against oral?


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## MrsOldNews (Feb 22, 2012)

Catherine602 said:


> I think if he left out the fact that he does not like oral his reception would not have been so rough. He did know that the TAM membership are orally fixated.
> 
> Honestly, if I were a man I don't think I would like going down on a woman. Men's penises are elegant, clean and neat when freshly washed. Women bits are complicated and leaky eeewwww.
> 
> Just kidding maybe


I feel the exact opposite. I think vaginas are much better looking, and I can only vouch for myself here but much better tasting too. I've never heard someone call a penis elegant before lol. There nice and all but elegant they are not.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

LadyFrogFlyAway said:


> And no wrinkles when they're being ironed.


Lady - you are killing me I hope you know that. :>}

I like to watch it grow, it's miraculous!! Women can't transform their bits like that. The old tune "Could this be magic" creeps into my mind now.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Are you kidding? Is there anything in nature that has more symmetry, more phases and faces than a penis? Name one. 

They are represented symbolically in art and artifact. Why? Because of the perfect power and beauty of the phallus.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Havesomethingtosay said:


> And I'll bet his fingers also never go near that icky thing either...
> 
> C'mon Catherine602 let me know your thoughts and reasoning. BTW you have something against oral?


No, just being silly. I am puch drunk - my husband is talking about getting a motorcycle. I had to have a drink to stop myself from shaking with fear for his safety. 

He had a Harley that he decided to sell. I thought that was it no more prayers when he went out riding. Well now he is talking about a Kawasaki! 

Another drink please thank you.


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## Havesomethingtosay (Nov 1, 2011)

Just hit me the title of the OP should have been amended to "Sexually Incompatible..... From Day 1 or the last 10 years?"


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## MrVanilla (Apr 24, 2012)

I’m going to toss this out here... 
and you can do with it what you will:

Last night, my wife and I continued our conversation about her new to me ‘preferences’, and for once we didn’t get all tangled up in the meaning of the words. What I got from that talk, was that she would prefer that I was more ‘assertive’. Specifically, that I would assume responsibility of what she is experiencing, or in other words, that my attentions be focused on her physical responses, and that I would ‘control’ them.

This is when a light clicked on. 

I told her that when the two of us were together physically, my entire thought process is focused on my being able to ‘stay’ with her. Either I am completely focused on holding back my body’s physical response, or that I’m trying to think of anything else in an attempt to distract myself from that said physical response. There isn’t any ‘relax and have fun’ for me. So I doubted that I would be able to focus on anything else - let alone her. The entire act has become a stress-filled experience. 

I’m thinking this might be a key as to why I’m not so interested.


**The big mistake I feel I made here, is that I did not mention straight away that my personality type is extreme introvert. I have great difficulty interacting with people I don’t know. I avoid it, but I had hoped that maybe forum anonymity here might allow me to talk about all this. It appears I lack the skills to do this in an acceptable manner. So this is all on me, all my fault, and my mistake is now a very real reminder of why I really should avoid trying anything new. So, please accept my apologies if you feel I wasted your time. I did not mean do to so. I think I posted here secretly hoping to avoid seeing a counselor; and thus escape the embarrassment of hearing them tell me that the way I want to live my life is wrong - and that I’m the one that needs to change. I wish I could express to you just how frustrating it is to hear that.**


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## Havesomethingtosay (Nov 1, 2011)

I find it very funny that your response above is #69..... MrVanilla I suggest you google 69.

I am sorry that even now you are too scared to express yourself on an anonymous forum and it is obvious you are not even able to let yourself go and talk freely and really tell us the issues and what your wife wants.

If I read correctly above you were too scared about orgasming too quick? I am not sure whatsoever as to what you are saying.

I suggest you see a counselor as your problem go well beyond the bedroom.

Best of luck.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

Sorry if what I'm about to say comes across as harsh, but I've been reading through this thread since it started and it just seems like you want to make excuses. She's not asking for anything that's dangerous.

I'm not the slightest bit interested in anal sex, but if my wife told me that was her desire I'd do it. I'd do my utmost to please her because I love her.

Stop putting up barriers and for her sake try what she wants say just 3 times (each thing 3 times). Tell her if you don't like it still after 3 times, you're not doing it again. At least then you'd have shown her that you loved her enough to try (oh and really try it... just go with it).

Who knows maybe you'd love it if you gave those things a serious try. Stranger things have happened.

Oh and for the record, I'm an introvert as well. I don't see what that has to do with anything.


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## Middle of Everything (Feb 19, 2012)

Ever watch Big Bang Theory with Sheldon and Amy Farrah Fowler? 
Something familiar there.








Bazinga!!!


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

LadyFrogFlyAway said:


> The great thing about them is they stiffen nicely without the use of Magic Spray Starch.
> 
> I love your comment about them being elegant. How true. An erect penis is a thing of beauty. As long as it's not in the eye of the beholder.
> 
> Well, looks like MrVanilla is not going to answer my questions, so I will stay on the Sex Toys thread where I can continue to spread sexual sunshine and Butterfly Vibes around.


Yea it stings like the hell fires. Gotta handle that bad boy with care and longing.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Browncoat said:


> Sorry if what I'm about to say comes across as harsh, but I've been reading through this thread since it started and it just seems like you want to make excuses. She's not asking for anything that's dangerous.
> 
> I'm not the slightest bit interested in anal sex, but if my wife told me that was her desire I'd do it. I'd do my utmost to please her because I love her.
> 
> ...


This is so difficult. It is one thing to be neutral about something and to actively dislike it. 

In my view, to expect the person you are supposed to love do something they actively dislike is difficult for me to understand. How do you get pleasure from watching someone do something they dislike? 

How is that loving? To me, the receiver loves the act more than they love the giver. 

I would never do anything sexually that I dislike. I will try things that I am not sure I will like or that I've never tried and sounds like I won't like it but never something I dislike. 

I think that openness is loving and is an essential element of a loving caring relationship. That's consistent with stretching your comfort zone. 

But that is different from making yourself do something and watching the person that is supposed to care for you have an orgasm while you suffer. What do you do after the act? Look at your partner lovingly and say thank you? 

That kind of love can be suspended when it is convenient. Who know what else such a person will do if it is in their interest for pleasure. 

I am not accusing you of anything. This is what comes out of my head with this sort of thing so, it is my perception which is likely distorted.


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## Jeff/BC (Apr 1, 2012)

MrVanilla said:


> I told her that when the two of us were together physically, my entire thought process is focused on my being able to ‘stay’ with her. Either I am completely focused on holding back my body’s physical response, or that I’m trying to think of anything else in an attempt to distract myself from that said physical response. There isn’t any ‘relax and have fun’ for me. So I doubted that I would be able to focus on anything else - let alone her. The entire act has become a stress-filled experience.


I can completely sympathize with this. It sounds a lot like me circa 5 years ago. The last 5 years has been an exploration of "primal sex" -- no self control, no nothing other than rutting... a male and a female doing what males and females do. It's been wondrous for _both_ of us. As it turns out (and much to my surprise) Carol LIKES that... a lot. Man, I was so naive *laughs*.



> **The big mistake I feel I made here, is that I did not mention straight away that my personality type is extreme introvert. I have great difficulty interacting with people I don’t know. I avoid it, but I had hoped that maybe forum anonymity here might allow me to talk about all this.


I disagree. I think I pretty much got what you were saying all along. I think it wasn't that hard to "get" for anyone actually wanting to understand. I don't think you made any mistake at all. 



> ...and thus escape the embarrassment of hearing them tell me that the way I want to live my life is wrong - and that I’m the one that needs to change. I wish I could express to you just how frustrating it is to hear that.**


Why would anyone tell you that? It's your life. You should live it as you want to. The only real question in my mind is "Is that how you want to?" There are obvious trade-offs to be made between your own comfort levels and the desires/needs of your wife. It's not my job to tell you how to weigh those things. Nor, in my opinion, is it the job of any credible therapist. I just think you ought to be clear on what choices you are making.


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## Havesomethingtosay (Nov 1, 2011)

MrVanilla said:


> I’m going to toss this out here...
> and you can do with it what you will:
> 
> Last night, my wife and I continued our conversation about her new to me ‘preferences’, and for once we didn’t get all tangled up in the meaning of the words. What I got from that talk, was that she would prefer that I was more ‘assertive’. Specifically, that I would assume responsibility of what she is experiencing, or in other words, that my attentions be focused on her physical responses, and that I would ‘control’ them.
> ...


You have lived 10 years without so much as touching..... You don't think there are HUGE ISSUES? 

I highlighted above because it seems obvious you know you have issues to work through and KNOW a Counselor will tell you exactly that. So you come here and expect people to pat you on the head and tell you all is okay? Well you do have Catherine602 telling you that.

You could always tell your wife if you do not want to divorce that she is free to find someone to fulfill what to most at this point is pretty "vanilla" requests, and continue no touching or affection whatsoever or man up.

Think of it as her going to the gym, a walk or shopping for two hours once a week......


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

Catherine602 said:


> This is so difficult. It is one thing to be neutral about something and to actively dislike it.
> 
> In my view, to expect the person you are supposed to love do something they actively dislike is difficult for me to understand. How do you get pleasure from watching someone do something they dislike?
> 
> ...


I know you're accusing me of anything Catherine. 

Personally I would give far more than I would ask for.

If I asked my wife for something and she didn't want to do it, I wouldn't push the matter. I just don't take any pleasure from anything when my wife doesn't enjoy things as well.

If my wife asked me to do something and even if I didn't want to do it, as long as it wasn't dangerous/violent and it didn't involve others I'd give it my best try a few times. Just because I love her, and who knows maybe I'd change my mind once I tried it.


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