# Infidelity a type of Bullying



## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

Read some articles today on the wonderful miracle cure infidelity can bring to a struggling marriage, I must say it seems to be a trend with so many people extolling the benefits of infidelity (they forgot to mention weight loss go figure).
Many say the same thing it forces change in the marriage, of course my problem is that the change is from one person's perspective only. Many times the change may be the end of the marriage (the exit) but instead of the offender having the guts to discuss the problems and then say finally I am leaving they force the BS to live with the pain and make the decision to divorce. Other times when the BS decides to stay and R many of the concessions are on their part, yeah I know the heavy lifting the I'm sorry, I will never do it again stuff but more often the WS biggest change is to not cheat again what a hard hard thing to do.
In the course of the R the WS may take all the blame for their choice(few and far between especially in the beginning) mostly the WS are so kind in spelling out just what the BS did to push, pull or drive them to cheat and it is now the burden of the BS to make those changes so the WS doesn't get those horrible temptations again (the Ws may never directly say it is up to you to make these changes but if the reasons they give were things you were doing why wouldn't you want to make changes).
The WS causes you pain and discomfort to get what they want sure seems like a bully to me even if they don't physically harm you. 

Mine own R continues to move forward working on 2 years since the fun began, things are well even though struggles do continue but all of us struggle 1 day or 20 years after. I post here because I believe that an R is nothing more than learning to cope with infidelity after all we are just trying to live with the new reality our life has become. I read a lot of books and articles along with many posts here on TAM, maybe looking for the holy grail of infidelity (why this happened to me?) or maybe just to keep that sharp edge so that this will not happen to me again. Both quests are futile there will always be questions that can never be answered and no matter how vigilant unless I follow her 24/7 anything can happen but I am not confident enough to stop.


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## Shooboomafoo (Mar 30, 2011)

The option to divorce, or "discuss" problems in the marriage are always available prior to spreading for another man. 
You're doing all the reading and heavy lifting trying to "cope with the reality your life has become".. ???? MAn,,, FK that!!!
You will never EVER be able to assure yourself that it will not happen again. You thought it wouldnt happen in the first place, you figured you "knew" her deeply and realistically. 
Suh-priiise!!! 
So how did the next step become tossing your dignity out of the window and "Accepting your new reality"? 
My new reality was a house away from my nasty-ass ex. 
I forgave myself for wanting to float her body down a river, and for getting involved with her without seeing the red flags to begin with.

Questions that cant be answered? Nahhh.. aside from what do I feel like doing this coming weekend... now that I am free from the hell that was my marriage to someone without any self-respect.


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## Shooboomafoo (Mar 30, 2011)

Seems like folks panic, and get into this reconciliation situation to throw water on a perceived fire. They dont give themselves a chance to see a life beyond their fragile little family world. 
Boy was I ever surprised.... and it hit me extemely hard, but thats what it took to get me to see that I was JUST FINE by myself and without dealing with the daily garbage she used to present as "love".


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

I see the decision to work on the marriage and continue with Reconciliation as my choice. I looked at the reality of my particular situation. I'm not at all afraid of being alone or divorced. We don't have children to be concerned with and finances aren't a driver either.

He was and is my best friend. We went through a bad time. His was never a PA it stopped before that. I've often wished it were a ONS or an outright PA, something that makes the call easier to make. I love him, I don't need him, I haven't forgiven, I'll never forget, I've not promised anything beyond working on the marriage with the goal of R.

I have a timeframe in mind. I don't feel at all "bullied" I have control and options.


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## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

Shooboomafoo said:


> The option to divorce, or "discuss" problems in the marriage are always available prior to spreading for another man.
> You're doing all the reading and heavy lifting trying to "cope with the reality your life has become".. ???? MAn,,, FK that!!!
> You will never EVER be able to assure yourself that it will not happen again. You thought it wouldnt happen in the first place, you figured you "knew" her deeply and realistically.
> Suh-priiise!!!
> ...


I didn't toss anything out the window but my life has changed after dday, everyone's does the "new reality" is that your relationship has changed your outlook on many things have changed and now you are living with it either with them or without them.
Did I have the choice to leave yep I sure did and I still do if anything now that the emotional stuff has calmed down the choice to stay or leave feels more like it would be mine alone and not driven by family and financial issues even though none of that has changed.
My Ws never said listen if you don't do this or that then I am not staying (no I did not ask or beg her to stay she did all that) she didn't demand me to change but in our conversations the issues in our marriage which were valid made cheating an option to force change, it still didn't give her any excuse her choice was totally wrong and she knows it. We both read books and the like and she has done the famous "heavy lifting" but I will always feel partially to blame for the failure of my marriage , the changes I have made have been to make my marriage better and I would have been willing to make them if she would have communicated better with me before cheating, cheating was her way to force the issue.

And I did get the "this can make our marriage stronger" crap in the beginning, which was one of the reasons for this thread. WS use infidelity to force the BS into making choices and making changes either by an exit to the relationship that they are too chicken sh1t to say directly to you or by saying (either out loud or inferred) that I am unhappy with you and I want you to be different and here is what I did to prove just how serious I am. Instead of working harder and finding better solutions the Ws takes the easier road or at least what they think is and they cheat.
In my case my Ws tells me all the time she still can't believe that we are still together, she expected her clothes to be in the yard the day I confronted her and she confessed.
Forcing someone to do something by causing them pain is a form of bullying also a way to train dogs and some children(yes I am making fun relax)


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

"Instead of working harder and finding better solutions" the WS cheats; so true. Even if the marriage had very few problems, there was a better "solution" to whatever internal, personal problems were going on that led to the WS cheating, and "working harder" to figure out what those were and dealing with them would have been a better way to go.

I get where you're going with the bullying idea, but because my WS was such a conflict avoider and a bully to me is more of an in-your-face kind of conflict creator, I'm not sure the bullying concept is a good fit.

So many of us just don't know how to communicate about difficult things without ending up in an escalating tense situation that becomes really about something deeper than the original topic. And we also stop trying as hard as we did when we were first falling in love. So when the "honeymoon is over" and real life stresses set in, so many marriages start to veer away from bliss. It takes WORK to tend to a marriage, and most of us weren't taught how to do that.

Infidelity is a crappy way to "cure" a marriage, and any articles that claim that it can "help" a struggling marriage had to have been written by someone who wasn't cheated on. The wounds I have are deep, and the pain I've felt I would never wish on anyone. Getting close to my one year D-Day anniversary, I continue to heal, as does my marriage, but it's going to be a long process, and I'm triggering a lot now too. I will always know that I have a husband who cheated on me, and even with the passage of time, that can't be erased and it's a painful thought. I envy people who know their spouses NEVER cheated on them. I remember feeling that way. I will never feel that way again.

Back to the bullying idea, maybe it would fit better if the cheater was cheating IN ORDER to force change in their marriage. I don't think that's why most WS's cheat, though. They may be unable to talk about things in a constructive way, so instead of dealing with problems at home, they start confiding in and flirting with, then eventually sleeping with someone - but that's different than cheating for the purpose of "curing" the marriage.


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

love=pain said:


> I didn't toss anything out the window but my life has changed after dday, everyone's does the "new reality" is that your relationship has changed your outlook on many things have changed and now you are living with it either with them or without them.
> Did I have the choice to leave yep I sure did and I still do if anything now that the emotional stuff has calmed down the choice to stay or leave feels more like it would be mine alone and not driven by family and financial issues even though none of that has changed.
> My Ws never said listen if you don't do this or that then I am not staying (no I did not ask or beg her to stay she did all that) she didn't demand me to change but in our conversations the issues in our marriage which were valid made cheating an option to force change, it still didn't give her any excuse her choice was totally wrong and she knows it. We both read books and the like and she has done the famous "heavy lifting" but I will always feel partially to blame for the failure of my marriage , the changes I have made have been to make my marriage better and I would have been willing to make them if she would have communicated better with me before cheating, cheating was her way to force the issue.
> 
> ...


Love=pain

I've followed your case for awhile. You have said that you love your wife, but you will never love her like you used to. Have you told her that? I think you should. So she knows the damage she did is permanent, whether you stay with her or not.


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## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

nuclearnightmare said:


> Love=pain
> 
> I've followed your case for awhile. You have said that you love your wife, but you will never love her like you used to. Have you told her that? I think you should. So she knows the damage she did is permanent, whether you stay with her or not.


Great question, you know we talked about that some early on, she was begging me to let her stay and try to work this out and when I agreed she started asking for a long term commitment. Part of those talks was about what if things didn't come back, if I couldn't completely get over this, if the "love" didn't come back.
She pledged to work as long as needed to make this work and I pledged to try and do the same so I guess to answer you question she knows that what she did has damaged our marriage and things may never be the same. I say may because I don't know what the future holds it has been almost 2 years and while I don't think a magic rainbow will come down and make everything better time may. 
I have stated this before I am not sure I need a completely romantic crazy in love relationship any more, maybe I do and I just don't know it or know what I am missing. My relationship is pretty good we get along very well, have a lot of fun together, very active and satisfying sex life, my family is intact and flourishing so as a husband and father what more do I need?


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## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

hopefulgirl said:


> "Instead of working harder and finding better solutions" the WS cheats; so true. Even if the marriage had very few problems, there was a better "solution" to whatever internal, personal problems were going on that led to the WS cheating, and "working harder" to figure out what those were and dealing with them would have been a better way to go.
> 
> I get where you're going with the bullying idea, but because my WS was such a conflict avoider and a bully to me is more of an in-your-face kind of conflict creator, I'm not sure the bullying concept is a good fit.
> 
> ...


You make some very good points and many WS actions are not like an in your face bully but a bully can be passive aggressive as well. A passive aggressive bully can be the worst because they are not so much in your face but do their work quietly. Many Ws don't cheat to fix their marriage they use it as an exit vehicle and of course you have those others that cheat for no other reason than they want to and can, not because they want out of the marriage or have any real problems in the marriage.
This was just a thought I had in reading so many articles on how infidelity can help a relationship, to me it's more like taking a sledge hammer to fix something you are more likely to break than fix.


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## Graywolf2 (Nov 10, 2013)

What I don’t like is the BS acting like they are punishing the WS by checking up on them all the time (texts, email, etc.). That is quite a bit of stress and work the BS is forced to do for R. 

The BS is like the father of a teenage girl who is keeping her away from the bad boy down the street.

Keeping tabs on the WS is not a punishment, it’s a favor. The BS should ask the WS: Constantly checking up on you is a lot of work for me. Why are you worth it?


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Shooboomafoo said:


> Seems like folks panic, and get into this reconciliation situation to throw water on a perceived fire. They dont give themselves a chance to see a life beyond their fragile little family world.
> Boy was I ever surprised.... and it hit me extemely hard, but thats what it took to get me to see that I was JUST FINE by myself and without dealing with the daily garbage she used to present as "love".


Sorry, but I have to disagree. Your situation was completely different, in that your XW had an exit affair. She never attempted any R and rubbed her affairs in your face. I remember you posting that she would be primping herself for her dates with OM, and all the while doing everything she can to make life a living hell for you. In exit affairs, the WS doesn't care if they get caught and doesn't give a damn about their BS. In most other affairs, the WS thought they would never get caught.


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

Graywolf2 said:


> What I don’t like is the BS acting like they are punishing the WS by checking up on them all the time (texts, email, etc.). That is quite a bit of stress and work the BS is forced to do for R.
> 
> The BS is like the father of a teenage girl who is keeping her away from the bad boy down the street.
> 
> Keeping tabs on the WS is not a punishment, it’s a favor. The BS should ask the WS: Constantly checking up on you is a lot of work for me. Why are you worth it?


Checking in my case (and I suspect for many BS's) is not viewed as either punishment or favor; it's compulsive. It IS somewhat stressful, though I don't know about "work" - it feels so "necessary" and almost "natural" that I can't imagine not doing it, like I can't imagine not brushing my teeth. 

I don't check as much as I used to, so the intensity isn't what it was at first, and it's not as time-consuming now. But I think this is what OCD (obsessive compulsive disorder) may be like: there's a build up of anxiety while I'm in the process of bringing up some computer screen or opening up a bill, then a sense of relief when I find nothing to worry about (do the checking, then relax once the checking ritual is completed).

I'm hoping I'll feel compelled to do less and less as time goes by. We'll see!


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

hopefulgirl said:


> Checking in my case (and I suspect for many BS's) is not viewed as either punishment or favor; it's compulsive. It IS somewhat stressful, though I don't know about "work" - it feels so "necessary" and almost "natural" that I can't imagine not doing it, like I can't imagine not brushing my teeth.
> 
> I don't check as much as I used to, so the intensity isn't what it was at first, and it's not as time-consuming now. But I think this is what OCD (obsessive compulsive disorder) may be like: there's a build up of anxiety while I'm in the process of bringing up some computer screen or opening up a bill, then a sense of relief when I find nothing to worry about (do the checking, then relax once the checking ritual is completed).
> 
> I'm hoping I'll feel compelled to do less and less as time goes by. We'll see!


Yes, the hypervigilance DOES fade with time when you continually check and continue to find nothing. It then becomes mundane and boring and eventually you begin to check less and less often. Eventually you will reach the point that you forget when was the last time you checked. Been there, done that.


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## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

Graywolf2 said:


> What I don’t like is the BS acting like they are punishing the WS by checking up on them all the time (texts, email, etc.). That is quite a bit of stress and work the BS is forced to do for R.
> 
> The BS is like the father of a teenage girl who is keeping her away from the bad boy down the street.
> 
> Keeping tabs on the WS is not a punishment, it’s a favor. The BS should ask the WS: Constantly checking up on you is a lot of work for me. Why are you worth it?


I don't punish her or act like it and it is her responsibility to check in with me (she does this daily when she gets to work and when she is on her way home calls me from her office # or if she goes somewhere I usually get a call from the person she is with cell) I don't tell her to check in she just does it for my benefit I chalk this up to part of her heavy lifting.
I completely believe that the BS must make some changes in their marriage behavior if they want to R just like the Ws must, no marriage or R will work if only one side puts in the work while the other says this was your fault you must fix it. In a working marriage everything should be 50-50 with a partner picking up the slack on occasion, in an R those numbers may be much different with the Ws doing 90% or more if the BS is going through a rough time but both people must work on a relationship.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

love=pain-

I think I know what you mean. I may be the "bully" here

We've had so many issues...too much to mention. So much that my wife told me to have sex with other women...She wasnt going to change ANYTHING...

So I proceeded to do just that. I detached in a big way. It took a while and had a couple of opportunites, but chickened out. Maybe I was afraid of STD's. Plus I didn't want to hurt my wife.

My wife knew I was close to a PA around that time and decided to make some changes... She is trying...

I do feel like a bully as you say. I feel that she knows that the possibility is still there for a PA...The changes she is making won't continue too long... Its too much to ask of her. 

I am still detaching more all the time. Once I cross that line, there is no going back...

Still being the bully, my wife has no other option except stay with me. She is having a hard time finding work. 

I honestly want her to have options and become financially independent. I am OK to D... I just don't want to leave my daughter...

I am not going to change much. My wife can't either. Not for the long term...

As for your wife, and most cheaters, it is a form of bullying. I may be guilty of that with my little threats of other women.

Thanks for the thread, it gives me more to think about.


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## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

hopefulgirl said:


> Checking in my case (and I suspect for many BS's) is not viewed as either punishment or favor; it's compulsive. It IS somewhat stressful, though I don't know about "work" - it feels so "necessary" and almost "natural" that I can't imagine not doing it, like I can't imagine not brushing my teeth.
> 
> I don't check as much as I used to, so the intensity isn't what it was at first, and it's not as time-consuming now. But I think this is what OCD (obsessive compulsive disorder) may be like: there's a build up of anxiety while I'm in the process of bringing up some computer screen or opening up a bill, then a sense of relief when I find nothing to worry about (do the checking, then relax once the checking ritual is completed).
> 
> I'm hoping I'll feel compelled to do less and less as time goes by. We'll see!


Thought I would clarify I do have other ways to check up on her if I want (gps on phone, text recovery etc) but haven't felt the need to use them in quite some time.
Not really a funny thing because of the overall situation but to show how she takes responsibility for where she goes a few weeks ago my Ws had to go out of her office to run a few errands she was only out of the office 30 to 40 minutes but of course she has to clock out and back in. When she got home she pulled up the time clock app that they use to show me the exact times she left and returned along with the receipts from where she was at that of course are time stamped. I didn't ask her to do it, she had already called me to tell me she had to go out and she called when she got back anyhow but it was just her way of confirming the info.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

love=pain said:


> Read some articles today on the wonderful miracle cure infidelity can bring to a struggling marriage, I must say it seems to be a trend with so many people extolling the benefits of infidelity (they forgot to mention weight loss go figure).
> Many say the same thing it forces change in the marriage, of course my problem is that the change is from one person's perspective only. Many times the change may be the end of the marriage (the exit) but instead of the offender having the guts to discuss the problems and then say finally I am leaving they force the BS to live with the pain and make the decision to divorce. Other times when the BS decides to stay and R many of the concessions are on their part, yeah I know the heavy lifting the I'm sorry, I will never do it again stuff but more often the WS biggest change is to not cheat again what a hard hard thing to do.
> In the course of the R the WS may take all the blame for their choice(few and far between especially in the beginning) mostly the WS are so kind in spelling out just what the BS did to push, pull or drive them to cheat and it is now the burden of the BS to make those changes so the WS doesn't get those horrible temptations again (the Ws may never directly say it is up to you to make these changes but if the reasons they give were things you were doing why wouldn't you want to make changes).
> The WS causes you pain and discomfort to get what they want sure seems like a bully to me even if they don't physically harm you.
> ...


It's humiliating, and beats down your self esteem and your self worth. It's also a tag team effort, that you're unaware of.. so secret bullying, organized by the one that's supposed to protect your heart... bullying at it's finest.


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

russell28 said:


> It's humiliating, and beats down your self esteem and your self worth.


I agree with this part! And other metaphors, like your heart getting ripped out and stomped on - I get that the effects feel like someone has intended to be cruel and do harm. The part where I have a problem with the bullying idea is that a bully, to me, is aiming to put you down by their actions. Most cheaters at some point come out with that oh so lame "I never meant to hurt you" line. (Excuse me while I barf.) I think in most cases it's actually true (though still lame). The cheater is really all about him or herself when in the middle of an affair. So out in la la land with their raging hormones that putting us down via their sneaky cheating ways is not on their radar. Putting one over on us, yes. Putting us down, not the goal.

So maybe on the receiving end, you could say being cheated on feels like being bullied, though on the WS end I don't think the "put down" part of the equation is usually there.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

hopefulgirl said:


> I agree with this part! And other metaphors, like your heart getting ripped out and stomped on - I get that the effects feel like someone has intended to be cruel and do harm. The part where I have a problem with the bullying idea is that a bully, to me, is aiming to put you down by their actions. Most cheaters at some point come out with that oh so lame "I never meant to hurt you" line. (Excuse me while I barf.) I think in most cases it's actually true (though still lame). The cheater is really all about him or herself when in the middle of an affair. So out in la la land with their raging hormones that putting us down via their sneaky cheating ways is not on their radar. Putting one over on us, yes. Putting us down, not the goal.
> 
> So maybe on the receiving end, you could say being cheated on feels like being bullied, though on the WS end I don't think the "put down" part of the equation is usually there.


You always hear about the justifications... well those are the person cheating, saying that not only do they deserve to be cheating, because it makes them happy.. but you deserve to be cheated on, because you're so controlling/needy/boring/mean/fill_in_blank .. So part of the thing that allows it to happen, is they push the spouse away.. part of pushing them away is bullying them, treating them in a cruel way. So it might be a byproduct of the selfishness, but it's also known and intentional... the 'didn't mean to hurt you' is a crock of sh.. They did intent to hurt you, because you deserved it (in their mind).. They've convinced themselves that you've done things, and that's why they cheated. Upon discovery, we hear things like 'you never spent time with me... you never talked to me... I thought you didn't love me anymore.. you weren't filling my needs...' So yea, you had it coming. Don't fool yourself into thinking they didn't think of you, or how it would hurt you... they just thought they wouldn't get caught, and it'd all be fine because nobody would ever know... and deep down they got a kick out of the control, and the bullying of you... It was a turn on until discovery.. power trip.


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## standinginthegap (Jan 16, 2014)

I felt like that at the beginning of this trial, that it was pay back for all of the things he say I've done, my respond naturally was to change those things the result, he can't accept my changes because it took him wanting to leave for me to change I didn't do it on my own. The reality my husband and I are still together the OW has moved to be closer to him. He hasn't left and is still carrying on with his affair and me changing isn't good enough because "she is my soulmate". 

The truth my husband can't even help himself he is deep in sin and this isn't just to punish me for everything in life has a purpose. If I used the same logic as him then I could do the same thing he is doing and my behavior would be acceptable. The reality that many wayward spouses need to come to is how your spouse treats you shouldn't determine how you treat them, my husband shows me he has no respect for me but I continue to cooks him meals, clean the house, wash his clothes and show him love even with him doing the things he's been doing my actions towards him hasn't changed to retaliate.


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

love=pain said:


> Thought I would clarify I do have other ways to check up on her if I want (gps on phone, text recovery etc) but haven't felt the need to use them in quite some time.
> Not really a funny thing because of the overall situation but to show how she takes responsibility for where she goes a few weeks ago my Ws had to go out of her office to run a few errands she was only out of the office 30 to 40 minutes but of course she has to clock out and back in. When she got home she pulled up the time clock app that they use to show me the exact times she left and returned along with the receipts from where she was at that of course are time stamped. I didn't ask her to do it, she had already called me to tell me she had to go out and she called when she got back anyhow but it was just her way of confirming the info.


love=

how old is your youngest? (am recalling..10 yo?) 2 years out, does your anger at her still flare up, on occassion?


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## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

nuclearnightmare said:


> love=
> 
> how old is your youngest? (am recalling..10 yo?) 2 years out, does your anger at her still flare up, on occassion?


My youngest is 13, the change in my attitude about staying or leaving has nothing to do with the age of my kids it's more the confidence that I can get myself and them through this. In the beginning we all suffer from a lack of confidence it bleeds into everything (how can I do this, what happens to this or that) so much of that is the emotional turmoil going on inside, once that fades you see what you have for just what it is and your decisions are much more deliberate. Call it the betrayed fog lifting at least that's my take.
For the 2nd part or your question I sure do have anger for her now and again, probably more than I let her know, it comes out more when I drink so I cut down on that til I am better at controlling it. Who knows though drinking is like twister you never know where you might land when you start at least I don't .
Really I told her from the beginning being angry pissed off, mean or cruel solves nothing, the release may feel good but the consequences of the words or actions may cost more than I can pay. But I did punch several holes in my walls, put my fist through a door or two, even took a baseball bat to my garage during the ddays so there is a little anger there. Wait a few years and you can ask my ulcers LOL.


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