# Wife wants a divorce and none of it adds up



## Goodatheart11

Hello all,

I am hoping this community can provide me some advice. 

My wife and I have been together for 9 years and married for just under 5 years. We have had what I would consider a really strong marriage with what I discern are typical long-term relationship challenges Which I will go into. 

During our time together, my wife and I have been very supportive of each other’s personal progress. I have encouraged her to take elevated roles within her company while she has supported 2 promotions on my end which required moves within the state which we live. While the first move we made was in an isolated, lower population area which she did not like, fortunately, the second move was to a larger city and brought her closer to her family. This move was one that has allowed us to have some really amazing date nights due to where we live. We started our lives together in a 1 bedroom apartment and have built a life where we now have a 4 bedroom home and while we don’t have any children (we have agreed to focus on our careers for this time period of our lives). We have travelled together both internationally and within the US to several cities and I would say that the amount of things we have experienced together is extraordinary. She also works remotely so she doesn’t have any interaction with work associates. That said, she has found a group of girlfriends her age (early 30s) which are of a similar mindset (most have SO while a few are single). I am not controlling with her friends, never saying “no” when she is going out and never being paranoid about where she was or who she was with. I would say that’s a result of solid trust and confidence in the marriage on my end. In the end, I have been a supporter, provider, lover and friend throughout our relationship and marriage.

I say all of that “good” to put into perspective the “bad” things that she says have caused her to say ILYBINILWY and that she needs to do what makes her happy. Keep in mind that we have regular date nights (regular being at least every week or every other week at most) and lunch and breakfast dates sprinkled in. The things that need work are the “day to day”, the connecting at the end of a day, cuddling on the couch etc. Also, other than the times she and I were out together, I would sometimes turn down the rare invite to do a group outing with her friends and their significant others. I now understand why that would bother her because she wants to feel the same sense of pride or show off her spouse like the others do in those group situations.

Anyway, 2 weeks ago, she hit me with the “I’m packing a bag and staying with my mom for a week, I cant do this anymore and I need to be happy”. We have not spent one day apart in anger in 9 years, so of course this was a shock to my core. Needless to say, I am a loving husband so this was something I felt a.) I needed to reflect on what drove her to this space and b.) I needed to try and reconcile with my wife. Since that time, I have tried calling my wife (no response to phone calls) and texting her with my reflections on how I can be a better man and husband for her, including going on the trips with friends and spending quality time together each night. I received no response to that very long text message. I sent flowers to her mother‘s house with cards indicating my acceptance of responsibility in where we are and how we got here. She responded with only a “thanks for the flowers”. While she was away with her mother, I came to find out that she had texted her group of friends and said she wold need their support because she was making a life change and separating from me. Note that this is how I found out about the impending separation. So on Sunday, when she came back, I laid it all out. At least face-to-face I could say very calmly and without losing my cool, that I was committed to making these changes in our lives to make her happy And feel loved. I also recapped all of the great adventures we have been on and the life we have built together to let her know our story wasn’t finished yet. Her response to all of that was a very short, “I appreciate you saying that but I need to be happy and this doesn’t make me happy anymore.”

So with that she wants to sell our house and start the process of a divorce. We are going to live in the house together until it sells (her in the master, me in a guest bedroom). This has come completely out of the blue to me and even though I admit to being faulty in some areas, those areas are not unworkable to the point that you cant even communicate with your other half of 9 years. 

A few days ago, curiosity got the better of me. I have never done this in our 9 years together but at this point I had to know. I looked at her phone and found the cause. She has been having an affair with another man. My guess is that since she is at home 99% of every day, that this came about either at the gym or during her time in her Master’s degree class (one day a week). Regardless of the when/where/how, she seems to have developed such a powerful relationship with this guy, that she is not only willing, but actively rushing into a divorce with the person who she grew and built life around. During this week after she said she wanted a divorce, she has been trying to goat me into getting angry or losing my cool. She gets annoyed when I try to talk to her in the house. She has yelled when I asked for simple closure. At all times, I have kept my cool and been calm in our conversations.

I guess my question to the group here is, why would a woman leave what seems to be a perfect life for a lustful one-off? If the things we shared together weren’t enough to deserve a conversation of “I’m not happy” before leaving, then I am not sure how any woman would be capable of ever being happy In life. I assume she is moving hard forward with the divorce and once the house sells that will be it. She probably will never even reflect on what she has just given up because there is already someone there to “make it better”.

What would you do in this situation? It is hard to be blindsided like this and from my perspective I’ve never wanted to spend a day apart much less not try to save the marriage. She just is not having any of that conversation. Do I just make plans to move on with my life? This is so raw no new I haven’t really even processed it yet, much less made that kind of a plan.

Any insight or guidance you may have is appreciated!


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## Andy1001

First of all take your bedroom back. 
Then get a lawyer.


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## Marc878

If you want to try and save this. Full exposure to all family and friends. Find out if her new lover is married and inform his wife. Dragging your feet or talking will get you nothing. Only your actions will count.

Carry a voice activated recorder on you at all times. She is goading you probably so she can file a restraining order against you and have you removed from the home.

Don’t worry about hurting her feeling or pushing her away. She’s already left.

Take the master back and let her have the guest room.

If you do the “pick me dance” or try to nice her back it’ll work against you.

Go into a hard 180 immediately.

Better put some thought into this. Can you live with a cheater? If not just let her go as fast as possible.


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## Goodatheart11

We keep separate phone bills and checking accounts. Unfortunately that’s just the way we agreed to go about things. We both make good money so it was never a concern to have the finances done that way.


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## Lostinthought61

You should expose her cheating to everyone...


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## Marc878

Blame-shifting is when a person does something wrong or inappropriate, and then dumps the blame on someone else to avoid taking responsibility for their own behavior.

She’s cheating because she wants to. You didn’t cause it.


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## Marc878

Get into the 180 immediately. You are doing yourself no favors by taking any blame for this.

The “Pick me dance” will just lower your status while make her new boyfriend look great.

Strength is attractive weakness is not. STOP!!!!









The 180


Several years ago, Michelle Wiener Davis, the author of Divorce Busting, introduced a concept to the world of infidelity that is designed to help you and your partner move forward in the healing of…




beingabeautifulmess.wordpress.com


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## Marc878

Goodatheart11 said:


> We keep separate phone bills and checking accounts. Unfortunately that’s just the way we agreed to go about things. We both make good money so it was never a concern to have the finances done that way.


Did you get the guys info and keep copies of the texts? Find out if he’s married? 

Nothing can be done as long as the affair is ongoing. Affairs only work well kept in secret and the dark.
You hesitate you lose if you want an attempt at salvaging this.

In any event get a good attorney ASAP. I’d interview at least 3.


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## Goodatheart11

I did get the info and copy texts. She didn’t save his name in her phone so I’m only going on a reverse lookup search so the name results may or may not be accurate. He is not married or at least the records don’t indicate that. Thanks for the info on the 180. I’ll start researching that method. I agree revealing the cheating is the move but how to go about it I think is the challenge. In the texts I looked at, there was a thread with her mom that indicates the mom and step dad already know. Again I’m shocked none of them attempted to stop it or at least contact me, maybe not with the infidelity itself but to make sure I am doing my best in the relationship.


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## Marc878

What you really need to get fast is all cheaters lie like hell. Your wife is nothing special. Cheaters are a dime a dozen.

I get you’re in shock. Who wouldn’t be. It’s a selfish trait. Right now you don’t matter to her,

You do need to wake up quickly.

Do you really want to be married to someone like this? Infidelity is a life long gift. She’s having sex with someone else.

If not let her go as quick as possible.


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## Marc878

Goodatheart11 said:


> I did get the info and copy texts. She didn’t save his name in her phone so I’m only going on a reverse lookup search so the name results may or may not be accurate. He is not married or at least the records don’t indicate that. Thanks for the info on the 180. I’ll start researching that method. I agree revealing the cheating is the move but how to go about it I think is the challenge. In the texts I looked at, there was a thread with her mom that indicates the mom and step dad already know. Again I’m shocked none of them attempted to stop it or at least contact me, maybe not with the infidelity itself but to make sure I am doing my best in the relationship.


Blood is thicker than water plus cheaters lie a lot. She may have told them you are abusive, etc. They always rewrite the marital history to suit their agenda.

Be careful. False restraining orders happen. It sounds like that’s her plan. Get a VAR now!!!!!


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## Marc878

Read up: exposure





When Should an Affair Be Exposed : Marriage Builders, Inc.


The issue of exposure of an affair comes up when a betrayed spouse has first learned about the affair. Should it be exposed to others, or kept secret? I almost always recommend exposure. When...




www.marriagebuilders.com


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## Marc878

Goodatheart11 said:


> I did get the info and copy texts. She didn’t save his name in her phone so I’m only going on a reverse lookup search so the name results may or may not be accurate. He is not married or at least the records don’t indicate that. Thanks for the info on the 180. I’ll start researching that method. I agree revealing the cheating is the move but how to go about it I think is the challenge. In the texts I looked at, there was a thread with her mom that indicates the mom and step dad already know. Again I’m shocked none of them attempted to stop it or at least contact me, maybe not with the infidelity itself but to make sure I am doing my best in the relationship.


Do they work together? If so you could verify that way. If you have funds a PI could probably find out quickly. Since you have his phone number.


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## Marc878

If it were me I’d put some time into thinking about what I want. If this is a deal breaker then don’t waste time/effort. You cant fix this. Only she could do that.

If she came back and never cheated again you still have to live with it.


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## Smilieman

I am going through the _exact _same thing at the moment, after a 19 year relationship and 11 year marriage. I hear you. My wife walked out on me and wanted "Space" two days later I get a text message saying that she's got feelings for somebody else and won't be coming back. That was 6 weeks ago. Within 2 weeks she requested divorce. This is a classic Walk Away Spouse (WAS). I agree with @Marc878 that it is imperative to do a 180 - the opposite of what you usually do. She doesn't like you at the moment and doesn't want to be with you, doesn't want to hear from you and doesn't want to be around you. You have done nothing. This is all her. The more you chase the further it will push her away. Leave her alone, no calls, no texts, no letters, no more flowers. If she contacts you don't be too ready to reply. Let her wait then reply in simplistic answers, nothing too much or to long. Don't talk about the relationship, yours or her affair, they don't want to. Believe nothing of what she says, it will be lies, deceit, fabrication and blame.

Make sure that you work on yourself - workout, get a hobby, read, go out, make new friends, go for a drive. It's hard I know (and trust me, I know as it is happening for me right now too).

Consider going no contact. If she is still living away, leave her alone. I have been no contact for just over 2 weeks now. My wife told me to expect a letter from her lawyer. I haven't received anything 4 weeks later. She has also failed to respond to my lawyers queries. My wife done a similar thing 10 years back and promised me there was nobody else involved. She wanted a divorce then too after only 1 year being married - this seems to be common as they convince themselves there is nothing more they can do to make the relationship work. My wife even convinced the marriage counsellor that she wasn't having an affair! Looking back now with behaviour this time being exactly the same, it is obvious she lied. This is the other thing, they will lie and deceive to gaslight you and they will push the blame on to you to justify their actions - again as @Marc878 has already stated.

It is nasty and I feel your pain, but it is imperative that you focus on you. For me, I have been working out, going to the park to reading a book, talking to people, going to the pub and typing my journal on my laptop and trying to get my head sorted. I've had panic attacks most days. I have a hypnotherapy appointment Monday. Have counselling if you can and get a copy of "The Divorce Remedy" by Michelle Weiner-Davis and read it. Do not let your wife know anything about it - it is for you and you only. You will learn a lot if you study it and it won't make sense until you start to understand the psychology of a WAS.

She has left. As @Andy101 has said, take control of the master bedroom. Tell her you are not partaking in a threesome with her seeing another man. Let her sleep elsewhere. Let her work it out and do not help her set up another room or make sure she's ok. Leave her to it.

I don't have a solution for you. I followed the advice given here (and elsewhere) 10 years back and my wife came back, we had counselling and we had another 10 years together. It looks like it was built on a lie and she was off again, another affair, without any indication and without a word and with the clothes she had on her back and her laptop, hair dryer and straighteners. All her belongings including clothes, are still here 6 weeks on. She also took the savings and tried to cash in my pension money and have it directed to a joint account she created just 5 days before she left.

It's gonna be hard work and you will have a lot of heartache. The affair has to run it's course apparently. It took my wife 9 months to come home last time and this time I think she has ruined the relationship as I don't think I will take her back. It's painful I know. But make sure you look after you and leave her to look after her.

Stay strong, it's hard, but work on it minute by minute, that's all you can do.


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## Goodatheart11

Thank you for the really great advice everyone!


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## Marc878

That’s the rub isn’t it. Even if they come back what would you be getting back? Repeated cheating happens. Plus do you want to put years in with kids involved and go through it again? Then you’ve got major finance impacts, Alimony, child support, etc. most just want them back without thinking. 

There are zero guarantees.

IMO it’s not worth the risk. Let her go as fast as possible.


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## Marc878

It is not written anywhere that you can’t go ahead and file for D. I guarantee you will get to a better place quicker that way but most dawdle, can’t make a decision, etc.

YOU ARE ONLY A CHUMP IF YOU ALLOW IT.


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## Goodatheart11

Marc878 said:


> It is not written anywhere that you can’t go ahead and file for D. I guarantee you will get to a better place quicker that way but most dawdle, can’t make a decision, etc.
> 
> YOU ARE ONLY A CHUMP IF YOU ALLOW IT.


Thanks for all of your insights. Lots of hard truth but needs to be heard.


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## Marc878

Smilieman said:


> I am going through the _exact _same thing at the moment, after a 19 year relationship and 11 year marriage. I hear you. My wife walked out on me and wanted "Space" two days later I get a text message saying that she's got feelings for somebody else and won't be coming back. That was 6 weeks ago. Within 2 weeks she requested divorce. This is a classic Walk Away Spouse (WAS). I agree with @Marc878 that it is imperative to do a 180 - the opposite of what you usually do. She doesn't like you at the moment and doesn't want to be with you, doesn't want to hear from you and doesn't want to be around you. You have done nothing. This is all her. The more you chase the further it will push her away. Leave her alone, no calls, no texts, no letters, no more flowers. If she contacts you don't be too ready to reply. Let her wait then reply in simplistic answers, nothing too much or to long. Don't talk about the relationship, yours or her affair, they don't want to. Believe nothing of what she says, it will be lies, deceit, fabrication and blame.
> 
> Make sure that you work on yourself - workout, get a hobby, read, go out, make new friends, go for a drive. It's hard I know (and trust me, I know as it is happening for me right now too).
> 
> Consider going no contact. If she is still living away, leave her alone. I have been no contact for just over 2 weeks now. My wife told me to expect a letter from her lawyer. I haven't received anything 4 weeks later. She has also failed to respond to my lawyers queries. My wife done a similar thing 10 years back and promised me there was nobody else involved. She wanted a divorce then too after only 1 year being married - this seems to be common as they convince themselves there is nothing more they can do to make the relationship work. My wife even convinced the marriage counsellor that she wasn't having an affair! Looking back now with behaviour this time being exactly the same, it is obvious she lied. This is the other thing, they will lie and deceive to gaslight you and they will push the blame on to you to justify their actions - again as @Marc878 has already stated.
> 
> It is nasty and I feel your pain, but it is imperative that you focus on you. For me, I have been working out, going to the park to reading a book, talking to people, going to the pub and typing my journal on my laptop and trying to get my head sorted. I've had panic attacks most days. I have a hypnotherapy appointment Monday. Have counselling if you can and get a copy of "The Divorce Remedy" by Michelle Weiner-Davis and read it. Do not let your wife know anything about it - it is for you and you only. You will learn a lot if you study it and it won't make sense until you start to understand the psychology of a WAS.
> 
> She has left. As @Andy101 has said, take control of the master bedroom. Tell her you are not partaking in a threesome with her seeing another man. Let her sleep elsewhere. Let her work it out and do not help her set up another room or make sure she's ok. Leave her to it.
> 
> I don't have a solution for you. I followed the advice given here (and elsewhere) 10 years back and my wife came back, we had counselling and we had another 10 years together. It looks like it was built on a lie and she was off again, another affair, without any indication and without a word and with the clothes she had on her back and her laptop, hair dryer and straighteners. All her belongings including clothes, are still here 6 weeks on. She also took the savings and tried to cash in my pension money and have it directed to a joint account she created just 5 days before she left.
> 
> It's gonna be hard work and you will have a lot of heartache. The affair has to run it's course apparently. It took my wife 9 months to come home last time and this time I think she has ruined the relationship as I don't think I will take her back. It's painful I know. But make sure you look after you and leave her to look after her.
> 
> Stay strong, it's hard, but work on it minute by minute, that's all you can do.


Why are you waiting around the second time? You know by definition she is a serial cheater, right? And I’d bet you only know the tip of the iceberg.


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## Smilieman

Marc878 said:


> It is not written anywhere that you can’t go ahead and file for D. I guarantee you will get to a better place quicker that way but most dawdle, can’t make a decision, etc.


I fought against this when this happened the first time. I didn't want to believe that she wouldn't come back. I wanted to believe that she did have an affair. I wanted to save my marriage as I didn't believe in divorce. Now it's happened again and I still didn't want a divorce, but I logically know that's what must happen. I didn't know what I wanted and probably still don't. However, I got a lawyer and have started the process - logic is winning out over emotion. I can't do this again. I'm 10 years older and as you have said, it will likely happen again as it has to me. From my experience, being 55, I can't go through it again in another few years if I accept her back. Others have made it work, but all I know is that it took me 5 years to trust her last time and it has also made me ill with a neurological condition (I believe) as I was treading on egg shells for years wondering if she wil be gone when I got home from work, if I was saying and doing the right thing and now she's betrayed that trust again I don't think I'll be able to trust her, ever.

Just sharing my experience, in case it helps


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## Smilieman

Marc878 said:


> Why are you waiting around the second time? You know by definition she is a serial cheater, right? And I’d bet you only know the tip of the iceberg.


I'm not. Lawyers on the case. No response yet. Yes I do know that and I bet I only know the tip also. I don't want to know any more as it's been traumatic enough a second time round. I don't believe in divorce, but know it must happen - so it is.


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## Benbutton

You have no kids, in your 30's with a good career. You know she cheated, you don't need more evidence. Don't tell her you know - just quietly and swiftly engage the services of an attorney and serve her ass, THROW THE FIRST PUNCH DO NOT HESITATE. Protect yourself. This is not worth saving, you can do much better and the next woman will find you highly attractive for not putting up with this BS. Get to work, we are here to support you!!

Oh and BTW - been there, done that and it paid off in spades for me.


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## Marc878

OP try and stay out denial. Many get in the “I love them so much they must love me too” mode. Nope. She’s out having porn star sex with her shiny new boyfriend. They aren’t playing checkers and watching TV.


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## Goodatheart11

Marc878 said:


> OP try and stay out denial. Many get in the “I love them so much they must love me too” mode. Nope. She’s out having porn star sex with her shiny new boyfriend. They aren’t playing checkers and watching TV.


We’ll maybe that one I didn’t need. Yeah it may be true but still too new and raw to hit that nerve.


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## Marc878

Goodatheart11 said:


> We’ll maybe that one I didn’t need. Yeah it may be true but still too new and raw to hit that nerve.


Sorry man but what your wife is putting you through is a lot harsher.

A lot who come here just don’t want to see the truth. Waywards get by with their lies a lot because of that.

Denial will keep you in limbo. A place you need to get out of ASAP.


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## Tested_by_stress

Like others have said, expose her to friends and family. If they work together, expose them to their employer. Having said this, it would be game over for me. Cheating is unforgivable in my book. Are you in an at fault state? If so, go for the financial jugular!


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## Openminded

This is her choice to make. So, yes, you just make plans to move on with your life.


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## fluffycoco

I probably understand her. In the beginning, she may needed a supporter to help her going thought things and growing stronger, lucky her found you a nice guy. I believe she would appreciate what you did for her, but now she is not happy anymore since you don't match her needs anymore, maybe you are not rich enough you are not well educated enough...etc. Doesn't matter who she found now she would has been thinking to leave you for a long time though. 

喜


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## frusdil

As I was reading your opening post, I was thinking "there's another man in the picture", because frankly, her "reasons" for wanting a divorce are ridiculous. I was not at all shocked to have it confirmed.

You need to get in to see 3 cut throat lawyers asap; kick her out of the bedroom - she wants a divorce she can gtfo of the marital bed; GET A VOICE ACTIVATED RECORDER and have it on you at ALL times, she is absolutely goading you into losing your temper, so she can call police and have you removed from the house, it happens ALL the time.

Expose her to EVERYONE. Blow up her world. Her family - leave them til last since they already know, go nuclear - all her girlfriends, her colleagues, her gym, the rest of the family, and the POSOM's family and friends too.

Then kick her to the kerb and be done with her.


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## Beach123

I knew after the first paragraph she would be cheating. Then came the usual ILYBNILWY line that always signals an affair.
She’s a common cheater.
Waste no time… get the divorce finalized ASAP.
She isn’t who you thought she was.
Tell everyone who knows her! They need to know who she really is - the gal who cheats.


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## AGoodFlogging

She's a cheater, get rid of her. This is who she is, so accept it. A woman who has betrayed you while you've been out doing your best to make your lives together the best they can be.

Smilieman's story here should be a cautionary tale. 10 years extra time before the leopard showed the same spots (well until she got caught again).

The longer I spend on TAM the more I realise that this is just something that people shouldn't get second chances on.

Remember, you don't need a criminal standard of proof that your wife cheated to divorce her. If some people refuse to believe that she has had an affair, **** them.


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## Smilieman

AGoodFlogging said:


> Smilieman's story here should be a cautionary tale. 10 years extra time before the leopard showed the same spots (well until she got caught again).


And it hurt twice as bad the second time around, as it drags up all the unresolved emotions from the previous time plus the extra stuff and disbelief that it's happened again.


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## AGoodFlogging

Smilieman said:


> And it hurt twice as bad the second time around, as it drags up all the unresolved emotions from the previous time plus the extra stuff and disbelief that it's happened again.


You have my every sympathy. I can understand why you reconciled but it must hurt so much to know that it was all just based on lies.


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## Smilieman

AGoodFlogging said:


> You have my every sympathy. I can understand why you reconciled but it must hurt so much to know that it was all just based on lies.


Extremely. It has only been 6 weeks today and the emotional pain has been phenomenally unbearable, especially with that realisation that she was actually having an affair the time before too. More importantly, it's the realisation that these two occurences were when she was prepared to set up life with them and "try it out" for real. How many more affairs have happened inbetween these where she didn't want to move in with them?

It goes back to the quote from Michelle Weiner-Davis "Believe nothing they say and only half of what they do".

_Sorry about hijacking this thread. _


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

111


frusdil said:


> As I was reading your opening post, I was thinking "there's another man in the picture", because frankly, her "reasons" for wanting a divorce are ridiculous. I was not at all shocked to have it confirmed.
> 
> You need to get in to see 3 cut throat lawyers asap; kick her out of the bedroom - she wants a divorce she can gtfo of the marital bed; GET A VOICE ACTIVATED RECORDER and have it on you at ALL times, she is absolutely goading you into losing your temper, so she can call police and have you removed from the house, it happens ALL the time.
> 
> Expose her to EVERYONE. Blow up her world. Her family - leave them til last since they already know, go nuclear - all her girlfriends, her colleagues, her gym, the rest of the family, and the POSOM's family and friends too.
> 
> Then kick her to the kerb and be done with her.


@frusdil is 100% spot on about her goading you. Be careful. When someone shows you who they are....believe them.

My question to you is what is your objective? Is reconciliation your objective or divorce? If you want to try reconciliation exposure is a must. Exposure is like spraying Lysol on germs, it kills the affair. As a guy who rolled the dice and recovered from wife’s infidelity exposure was the best weapon combined with my implementation of the 180.

I was on Facebook at the time and changed my status to single. Posted my FWW had a boyfriend, named him, said in flowery marine language what I wished for each of them. I exposed to my and her siblings in person, contacted POSOMS wife. I did a few other displays of my displeasure of her decision to bang another man.

Now she is in the land of unicorns and rainbows and void of reality currently. Exposure can really make these dreams a nightmare if properly planned and executed.

My initial response is to tell you to kick her ass out of the house to live with POSOM. Why has she not moved in with him? Did you ask her that? I bet she is not the only one he is dipping his wick with. Me, hell, I would find his address. Pack her **** in a U Haul and park it at his residence.

I can attest that Facebook exposure moves like geometric progression as there are many people who love to read drama like that. I would bet my post reached several hundred friends and acquaintances.

I then left the state and stayed in Florida for six weeks with my wedding ring on the tray on my dresser. Went totally dark with no communication except for the one day she flew into Naples and tried to ambush me.

Be on guard for any ******** she will try to pull on you. Try to ask her to leave the house while you go through the divorce and if she does, you promise to me the divorce painless for her....then ambush her sorry cheating ass with the exposure bomb.


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## marko polo

Why? Because she wanted to and she could. You are her safety net.
She has checked out of the marriage. She does not love or respect you.

There is a big difference between the woman you believed you are married to and the one she actually is.

Would strongly recommend you press hard and fast for divorce while her judgment is clouded by her lover.


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## Elijah220

In the beginning of every new relationship is the passion phase. It is strong and we don’t think clearly. We see only the other person, and it is all we want, think about, and care about. Sadly when someone cheats and is in this phase you cannot reach them. They are gone to you, which is evident in how coldly your wife has handled this.

You can try to fight for her, but at this point it will only bring you heartache. She only sees him. Accepting she is gone to you is the first step. Easier said than done, I know. But for your sanity you must accept it.

The “whys” will drive you insane and are a waste of energy. We all go through it, but the answers are never given as we need them. So accept that you will never have the answers you seek.

Your only option is to cry in private and be cold to her. File for divorce and show her you deserve better than this. Show her you are strong and standing up for yourself and will not allow yourself to be treated like this.

Accept you did NOTHING wrong!!! This is all on her. Each step along the way she had the choice to come to you and try to fix the marriage. She chose not to. After all your years of marriage, this is how little she thinks of you and it. She is very cold and selfish. You deserve better!!

Be strong! I know it is hard, but I promise you a better life awaits you! Hang in there! It is always darkest before the dawn!

My best to you sir!


----------



## Benbutton

frusdil said:


> GET A VOICE ACTIVATED RECORDER and have it on you at ALL times, she is absolutely goading you into losing your temper, so she can call police and have you removed from the house, it happens ALL the time.


This right here OP. This is where "knowledge is power" comes into play. You already know what she did to you, so know what she is capable of and play it SMART! Kill her with a kind smile while working out your plan.


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## fluffycoco

Agree with what Marko & Elijah said, she thinks she is popular she can find a richer a hotter a successful one, maybe you are hot guy but obvious not rich and successful enough for her where she from anyway she feels she deserve better than this so you are in her way she hates you when you try to save this marriage


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## Goodatheart11

Thanks again all. Looking into a VAR just to protect myself. my Logical side says there is no reason to try to work through anything and to be honest she isn’t even looking for it so it doesn’t matter. I’m working on selling the house and finding a new place. Will take it from there. Definitely starting the 180 and debating exposure. I like the idea of exposure to her friends but not sure about via Facebook piece may go direct To them.


----------



## hamadryad

My .02

You want to blow up her life and expose her? Fine, but all that is going to do is anger you more than you already are, create a lot of unnecessary drama, and will NOT make this issue go away and she flees back into your arms...It won't happen...but if you feel like you would benefit by being vindictive, great, just realize it's not going to go anywhere in a different direction than it is right now...she's done and she's worked all this out a long time ago....this didn't happen overnight no matter what you think...

You mention nothing about your sex life in the original post, and I know it's private for most people, so I get that if you don't want to disclose, but often problems in this area are telling for what is going to happen in the future..

What you think is "perfect" to her, maybe sucks...Who knows what's going on in her head...Also consider her age...She may be thinking hard about children and is questioning your ability to be a good father...Who knows.???

My only advice is be VERY RELIEVED that there are no kids to deal with this...The divorce should be pretty straightforward as both have careers/money...This could be done in a month with minimal legal expense...She probably wont fight you on anything, just wants out...

Sorry, bud...but it's time to move on...


----------



## Dictum Veritas

hamadryad said:


> You mention nothing about your sex life in the original post, and I know it's private for most people, so I get that if you don't want to disclose, but often problems in this area are telling for what is going to happen in the future..
> 
> What you think is "perfect" to her, maybe sucks...Who knows what's going on in her head...Also consider her age...She may be thinking hard about children and is questioning your ability to be a good father...Who knows.???


It is not vindictive to give the truth wings and let it fly. @hamadryad has just given us an example of blame-shifting. It is a tactic used to various degrees of success by adulterous spouses to make the betrayed spouse feel guilty and somehow complicit in the affair. Here she implied that you might not be sexually virulent enough, not man enough to keep your adulterous wife. Your wife swore to you in her vows to be exclusive to you. If she had a problem, she could have discussed it and tried to solve it or she could have done the honorable thing and have gotten a divorce. There is no excuse for her betrayal.

Expose far and wide, kill the land of rainbows and unicorns your adulterous wife has constructed in her head and duplicitous fantasies.

@Goodatheart11 , you may have done things that have contributed to problems in the marriage, but the heinous crime of adultery is squarely on your wife's head and you share no blame in it. Protect your reputation by telling the truth about why the marriage has failed to all you think may ask, before they had asked, because in the vacuum of an explanation, a lie often fills the void and once it occupies peoples minds, it is believed and hard to displace.

An adulterous wife would often tell friends, family and colleagues that you were abusive towards them, that you verbally or physically abused them as a reason that the marriage has failed. Stop such a lie before it begins by spreading the truth.


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## Marc878

Goodatheart11 said:


> Thanks again all. Looking into a VAR just to protect myself. my Logical side says there is no reason to try to work through anything and to be honest she isn’t even looking for it so it doesn’t matter. I’m working on selling the house and finding a new place. Will take it from there. Definitely starting the 180 and debating exposure. I like the idea of exposure to her friends but not sure about via Facebook piece may go direct To them.


I would not do Facebook. Direct contact would be best. You just need a defined target list. Close friends and relatives, direct family, etc. 

Life is short. Let her go and free yourself. While I don’t think once a cheater always a cheater is 100% the capability is certainly there. Who wants to live looking over their shoulder? The risk is there.


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## Marc878

Goodatheart11 said:


> Thanks again all. Looking into a VAR just to protect myself. my Logical side says there is no reason to try to work through anything and to be honest she isn’t even looking for it so it doesn’t matter. I’m working on selling the house and finding a new place. Will take it from there. Definitely starting the 180 and debating exposure. I like the idea of exposure to her friends but not sure about via Facebook piece may go direct To them.


I would not wait around on her to file either. Get out of infidelity ASAP. The ones who get strong quick and stay there always come out better.


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## Marc878

*Do not drag your feet on the VAR. *False domestic violence charges happen. You are probably thinking she just wouldn’t do that. I’ll bet you never thought she’d cheat either.

From your first post this is what she’s planning and I’ll bet her shiny new boyfriend is probably behind it. Don’t end up getting arrested and put out of your home. You can get a a VARat Walmart or Best Buy.

Right now a hard no contact policy is your best friend. Talk will get you nothing l


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## hamadryad

Dictum Veritas said:


> It is not vindictive to give the truth wings and let it fly. @hamadryad has just given us an example of blame-shifting. It is a tactic used to various degrees of success by adulterous spouses to make the betrayed spouse feel guilty and somehow complicit in the affair. Here she implied that you might not be sexually virulent enough, not man enough to keep your adulterous wife. Your wife swore to you in her vows to be exclusive to you. If she had a problem, she could have discussed it and tried to solve it or she could have done the honorable thing and have gotten a divorce. There is no excuse for her betrayal.


I don't think anyone is excusing anything...what's wrong is wrong..

But as I stated, if tit for tat is the goal,. great..go for it....Me? I'd just move on as fast as I can, and never look back...I have no desire to get into that game, and who knows. anyway? What if all the people you tell rather than be sympathetic and pile on her, after they hang up the phone, they mock you and feel like she was right to leave the guy,? 

The end result will be the same...it will net you nothing and just confirm to her that she made the right decision, because it's normally a sign of weakness and not strength....

And just to be clear, I only brought up the sex part, because often that is an indication of problems that are brewing...NOT to blame shift anything...People operate with their heads in the sand, and then wonder why the house of cards fall...Not everything in life follows script...


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## Evinrude58

I would see an attorney and file immediately. Don’t even let on now that you know about the cheating. Take advantage of her desire to be with the other man as fast as possible to get the best divorce settlement you cAn. When your attorney says that exposure won’t affect the settlement, expose so that she can’t lie and twist things do that you appear to ferried a and family to be a bad person while she looks like an angel. She absolutely will do (probably already doing) this. 

You are making the right decision to cut her out of your life. She’s not the right person for you (most likely not right for anyone) and you will see this as a blessing one day, getting to get rid of a scourge and set free to find a good woman who actually loves you.

this is a huge blow to most men’s self image, weakens you at your knees. Don’t let your mind play tricks on you. Nobody is perfect, but it wasn’t anything about you that caused this, it was a character flaw in HER.

I kniw firsthand how painful this is. Very sorry you’re going through it. But keep going through it and rebuild your life and confidence in yourself and get happy.

Add: I totally agree with others that she is trying to ser you up with domestic charges so she can kick you out of your own house and insert her new bf. Absolutely have video to protect yourself if you can. VAR for sure.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

Marc878 said:


> I would not do Facebook. Direct contact would be best. You just need a defined target list. Close friends and relatives, direct family, etc.
> 
> Life is short. Let her go and free yourself. While I don’t think once a cheater always a cheater is 100% the capability is certainly there. Who wants to live looking over their shoulder? The risk is there.


Depends on your objective.Facebook is like a “carpet bombing” Style of exposure....shock n awe


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## DudeInProgress

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> Depends on your objective.Facebook is like a “carpet bombing” Style of exposure....shock n awe


Unless your plan requires otherwise, I’d go fast and hard, scorched earth on the exposure and legal / financial actions. 
You need to take control of the situation immediately and drive it towards your interests and best outcome.


----------



## jlg07

Marc878 said:


> *Do not drag your feet on the VAR. *False domestic violence charges happen. You are probably thinking she just wouldn’t do that. I’ll bet you never thought she’d cheat either.
> 
> From your first post this is what she’s planning and I’ll bet her shiny new boyfriend is probably behind it. Don’t end up getting arrested and put out of your home. You can get a a VARat Walmart or Best Buy.
> 
> Right now a hard no contact policy is your best friend. Talk will get you nothing l


You can always get a VAR app for your phone also! DEF keep it running whenEVER you talk with her. The store bought vars you can put around the house/car.


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## Marc878

Keep in mind. You will get through this. It’s not the end of the world like you think it is.
Many come here just like you. Upfront you’re in shock. Everyone is.
Keep posting for support.


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## Talker67

now is a PERFECT time to sell a house.
staying in the same house can set you up for all sorts of ridiculous and dangerous situations. like she calls the cops and tells them you hit her, and they bust into the house with their guns drawn. sell it, and kiss her cheating ass goodbye.

btw, after this fling works its way out, it is likely she will come crawling back to you.


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## Kaliber

Goodatheart11 said:


> Thanks again all. Looking into a VAR just to protect myself. my Logical side says there is no reason to try to work through anything and to be honest she isn’t even looking for it so it doesn’t matter. I’m working on selling the house and finding a new place. Will take it from there. Definitely starting the 180 and debating exposure. I like the idea of exposure to her friends but not sure about via Facebook piece may go direct To them.


@Goodatheart11, Your wife was planning this for some time, may be months, she is ahead of you emotionally and completely detached (AKA Monkey branched), you just found out, and it's row for you, from your post she never came to you with any concerns, you were blindsided, and she fooled you and took you for granted. 
You have to expose, you don't have to me vindictive, a simple message such as: *we are divorcing because my wife is having an affair with <Name the person> and she decided to pursue this new relationship*.. just state the facts.

Don't tell her, just do it, if she comes angary at you just tell her you are merely stating the facts, you should be having a VAR on you!
She will be shocked that you know about her affair!

From her message to her close friends:


Goodatheart11 said:


> I came to find out that she had texted her group of friends and said she wold need their support because she was making a life change and separating from me.


It seem they do not know what type of women she is, and what's the real reason she is separating, telling them is very important, as a lot of people with spouses do not want a cheater among their ranks!

I'm very sorry that this has happened to you!
You really don't have much options except being strong and moving on!
Do not plead or cry in front of her!
Be strong!

We are here to support you!


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## jlg07

Kaliber said:


> You have to expose, you don't have to me vindictive, a simple message such as: *we are divorcing because my wife is having an affair with <Name the person> and she decided to pursue this new relationship*.. just state the facts.


^^^^ THIS. YOU need to make sure that YOUR name and reputation are clear. Others deserve to know that SHE is doing this and nothing that YOU did caused it. Get out in front of this now. Otherwise you give HER all the control of the narrative.

Get your plan in place, get the paperwork done, and just after she is served, send this message out on FB, to all of HER and your EMAIL listings of friends and family.


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## manowar

Goodatheart11 said:


> ILYBINILWY and that she needs to do what makes her happy



Same old same old. You got the riddle. It's common. Now you can do what makes you happy. Stop the support and all the things she relied on by her husband. New Guy can open his wallet because GoodatHeart no longer will. This is the kind of action that is necessary. Stop paying her car insurance and credit cards for instance. While she's in the ILYBNILWY mode rational discussion is useless. Above all don't show weakness. And don't allow her to dictate the divorce or the handling of your assets that I'm sure you worked hard for. This is a different person you are dealing with now.


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## manowar

Kaliber said:


> Your wife was planning this for some time, may be months, *she is ahead of you *emotionally and completely detached (AKA Monkey branched), you just found out, and it's row for you, from your post she never came to you with any concerns, *you were blindsided*, and she fooled you and took you for granted.



Yes, this is right out of the female modus operandi playbook. You're playing catch-up right now. You're going to have to learn how the game is played. Implementing the 180 properly is a good early move. This will show you're serious, and possibly catch her off guard.


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## Trident

Why is she in the master bedroom? You've been cheated on and inconvenienced and basically kicked to the curb. You need to fight this with everything you got and by you giving up the bedroom is more symbolic of your failure to be strong than anything else. 

Interesting how you don't respond to posts such as this one.


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## manowar

One other thing. If New Guy eventually dumps her now that she's free or things don't work out between them --- ILYBINILWY will likely turn into IABILWYA_ " I am back in Love with you again". _ It could happen. Don't fall for it. It generally means your Plan B the backup provider guy. the safety net.


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## Goodatheart11

Trident said:


> Why is she in the master bedroom? You've been cheated on and inconvenienced and basically kicked to the curb. You need to fight this with everything you got and by you giving up the bedroom is more symbolic of your failure to be strong than anything else.
> 
> Interesting how you don't respond to posts such as this one.


Havent been avoiding anything here. I really appreciate the advice so far.
I exposed to her friend group. She did not deny the cheating when they found out and even went so far as to say how it’s so hard because I’m a good man, supporter, blah blah. I guess not surprisingly the friends did not oust her immediately and instead “won’t take sides”. I probably thought a few of them had some level of integrity and would oust her but that’s not the case.
House is listed and already has an above list offer within a few hours. She isn’t in the house at this point as she is “with her mom” aka “with OM” and it will sell within a few days so that’s that.
She has been on a mantra of saying “this is not about anything or anyone else but us, I’m just not happy and haven’t been for a long time” which is such ******** on so many levels. My guess is the unhappiness started right around the time the POSOM started saying all the things she wanted to hear. It’s like watching someone put up an internal false narrative of a 9 year relationship to justify going outside of it. At this point I doubt she will ever truly let herself reflect on what she has actually done here.


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## fluffycoco

manowar said:


> One other thing. If New Guy eventually dumps her now that she's free or things don't work out between them --- ILYBINILWY will likely turn into IABILWYA_ " I am back in Love with you again". _ It could happen. Don't fall for it. It generally means your Plan B the backup provider guy. the safety net.


Don't even dream about it. First of all, she is using him since beginning, and he didn't see it. He barely understand her, he thought being lazy and love to eat out everyday is all about romantic, how not shallow it is
She definitely is not an angel but he needs to reflect himself deeply.


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## jlg07

Goodatheart11 said:


> My guess is the unhappiness started right around the time the POSOM started saying all the things she wanted to hear. It’s like watching someone put up an internal false narrative of a 9 year relationship to justify going outside of it. At this point I doubt she will ever truly let herself reflect on what she has actually done here.


This is TYPICAL cheater handbook stuff -- they rewrite the marital history to justify themselves cheating. Happens ALL the time. This is something that YOU should stand up against and clarify to ANYONE who brings it up to you. YOU did nothing wrong here -- SHE is the cheater. 

If her friends are still supporting her, then you don't need to be friends with them, right? Why be friends with someone who actively supports a cheater?


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## Evinrude58

Goodatheart11 said:


> Havent been avoiding anything here. I really appreciate the advice so far.
> I exposed to her friend group. She did not deny the cheating when they found out and even went so far as to say how it’s so hard because I’m a good man, supporter, blah blah. I guess not surprisingly the friends did not oust her immediately and instead “won’t take sides”. I probably thought a few of them had some level of integrity and would oust her but that’s not the case.
> House is listed and already has an above list offer within a few hours. She isn’t in the house at this point as she is “with her mom” aka “with OM” and it will sell within a few days so that’s that.
> She has been on a mantra of saying “this is not about anything or anyone else but us, I’m just not happy and haven’t been for a long time” which is such ****** on so many levels. My guess is the unhappiness started right around the time the POSOM started saying all the things she wanted to hear. It’s like watching someone put up an internal false narrative of a 9 year relationship to justify going outside of it. At this point I doubt she will ever truly let herself reflect on what she has actually done here.


Youve got a good handle on the reality. Yes, the unhappiness always sets in about the time thoights of a new man start. 

right now she’s not talking bad about you. But rest assured it is likely to happen.

and no, the friends “not taking sides” is typical.

As long as you keep your chin up and keep working on building yourself a happy new life without the ex black cloud, you’ll be ok. Takes a while.

you’re doing good. Glad you outed her.
They are going to get what they deserve— each other. 
Great chance they’ll cheat on one another.


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## Marc878

Goodatheart11 said:


> Havent been avoiding anything here. I really appreciate the advice so far.
> I exposed to her friend group. She did not deny the cheating when they found out and even went so far as to say how it’s so hard because I’m a good man, supporter, blah blah.* I guess not surprisingly the friends did not oust her immediately and instead “won’t take sides”.* I probably thought a few of them had some level of integrity and would oust her but that’s not the case.


Nope. They took sides and it’s not yours. They aren’t your friends. Cut them out of your life immediately and permanently.


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## Marc878

Goodatheart11 said:


> House is listed and already has an above list offer within a few hours. She isn’t in the house at this point as she is “with her mom” aka “with OM” and it will sell within a few days so that’s that.
> She has been on a mantra of saying “this is not about anything or anyone else but us, I’m just not happy and haven’t been for a long time” which is such ****** on so many levels. My guess is the unhappiness started right around the time the POSOM started saying all the things she wanted to hear. It’s like watching someone put up an internal false narrative of a 9 year relationship to justify going outside of it. At this point I doubt she will ever truly let herself reflect on what she has actually done here.


It’s all cheater bull ****. Very typical. Nothing special at all. The good thing is you aren’t losing a thing. Dump a cheater gain a life.

Next up you’ll get the “let’s be friends”. Definition of friend is loyal, honest and trustworthy.

No contact is your best friend here. You don’t need her or this **** in or close to your life.


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## Marc878

Read up and apply.

Dear Chump Lady,
I am 6 months post divorce after discovering my ex-wife’s infidelity in September 2013. This holiday season my children (12, 8) are with my ex-wife abroad with her affair partner on holiday with my ex in-laws. It sucks that my kids spend time with the man that helped break up my family and end my marriage, but that’s another topic.
My question today is what happens to couple friends after divorce? Can anyone remain impartial and be friends with both sides, or do things naturally drift one way or the other over time? Can I remain friends with someone who has seen me crushed, particularly those few that know the whole story of the infidelity, and who stay friends with the ex-wife? Even more challenging, are those, who as a couple, are friendly with ex-wife and her affair partner.
After a year, I’ve decided to start letting the latter category of friends wane, because it’s too hurtful, as I wouldn’t the same to a friend. Or am I wrong or unique in my view? Do you need to have been through infidelity to fully understand the hurt that this causes?
Appreciate your view and advice.
Carlos

Dear Carlos,
You don’t need to have gone through infidelity to understand that it hurts like a ******. You just need to know that it’s unjust.
And there’s the rub, Carlos. We live in an age where people are loathe to judge injustice. Two sides to every story. No one knows what goes on in a marriage. They grew apart, blah, blah, blame shift, blah.
I can’t explain the fashion for being Above Judgment, because judgement is essential to living and especially to avoiding disaster. Should I invest my retirement savings in Beanie Babies? Should I befriend the neighborhood pedophile? Ride my bike down a flight of stairs?
If we didn’t judge people and situations, we’d be a bunch of jelly-brained imbeciles. Anyone could steal our lunch money. We’d be adrift. Good Samaritans would have to pin our addresses to our sweaters and walk us home.
Fact is, we judge every day. Worthy! Unworthy! Good risk! Bad risk!
The **** sandwich of dealing with the People Above Judgment is that they did judge, they just found you unworthy. But they don’t want to come out and say that. They’d rather pronounce the situation ambiguous and unknowing. We can all be friends, of course. Because that’s easier on them. Then they don’t have to make judgment calls or think of people differently, or rearrange their social calendars and seating charts. Let’s Pretend That Never Happened. Your grief isn’t nearly as important as their discomfort. So let’s make believe you aren’t grieving.
In fact, let’s pretend the problem is you and your bitterness and inability to confer forgiveness and move on. Then we never have to consider the injustice of this situation, the pain of you and your children, or our moral culpability at befriending someone who helped break up a marriage. If the problem is YOU and Something You Did (or did not do, like grant forgiveness), then infidelity isn’t so scary. Infidelity only happens to those who deserve it, who do the Wrong Sorts of Things. Unlike the smug People Above Judgment who are immune from chumpdom.
Cheaters have many narratives, but the favorite is happiness. Hey, we deserve to be happy. Really this is for the best. Carlos, in time, will be happier too! He’ll find someone who is a better fit, and hey, really he owes to all to this life change made possible by infidelity. No harm, no foul!
Dimmer people think… well, who can be against happiness! They don’t ask themselves at what cost? And who is paying that cost? They think… Carlos’s ex seems happy. Happy people are easier and more fun to be around than grief-stricken, angry people. Walking into Carlos’s pain is rather a bummer. So… let’s (judge!) go with the Happy People.
Don’t you like Happy People, Carlos? What’s wrong with you? Why can’t you forgive and be friends?
Well, that all makes a perverse sort of sense if you lack empathy and have no moral compass. (I’m sure stealing my bank card and buying 15 hamburgers confers happiness on someone.)
The fact is, Carlos, you don’t have anything in common with people who would be friends with your cheating ex. You don’t share the same values. You said yourself, you would not do this to a friend. Ergo — these people are not your friends. There is no reciprocity there. They would not behave in the manner you would behave. You don’t share the same moral world view.
One hard blessing of infidelity is that it shows you who your real friends are, and who is a waste of space. Who can stand with vulnerability and grief, and who runs away.
This is an opportunity, Carlos, to fix your picker in all aspects of life and cherish the people close to you, who really have your back, and dump the losers who don’t. And when you do that, you’ll discover that you’re a hell of a lot more “meh” about your ex. You ARE happier. You aren’t pick me dancing with the friendship circle over who gets the “friends.” You really don’t give a **** any more.
Your new life will eclipse your old life Carlos, and into the darkness goes the smug assholes who don’t deserve you.


----------



## Beach123

Have you moved money into your name only? Protected all your assets and eliminated her from using joint credit cards?
Make sure you do - because if you don’t she will swipe all the money available to her… and then likely use it for a trip with her OM.
Protect yourself every way you can!


----------



## Goodatheart11

Beach123 said:


> Have you moved money into your name only? Protected all your assets and eliminated her from using joint credit cards?
> Make sure you do - because if you don’t she will swipe all the money available to her… and then likely use it for a trip with her OM.
> Protect yourself every way you can!


Yes we have always kept separate bank accounts and credit cards. Good for keeping finances separate but also in hindsight makes it super easy to conceal cheating.


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## Marc878

Bud, a cheater is always gonna find a way to Cheat. That’s who they are. You’re gonna be fine long term.

Keep your eye on the future. You’ll be smarter and wiser too.

A buddy of mine’s wife left him for her boss. He ended up trading way up. He’s ecstatic now.

Good guys are hard to find and in much demand. It’s the perfect time for you to purge your life of everything about her.

IMO you aren’t losing much. Shes soiled goods.


----------



## Talker67

Trident said:


> Why is she in the master bedroom?


because that is where she likes to get laid with her new BF.

the guest room would be too icky


----------



## SunCMars

Marc878 said:


> Nope. They took sides and it’s not yours. They aren’t your friends. Cut them out of your life immediately and permanently.


I agree, with any being seen as neutral, they are cowards in hiding, or them being liars, or just being moral cop-outs.

Those friends should be verbally defending you in private, though, it would be much better if it were done in mixed company.

Would-be cheaters defend other cheaters.
That dirty _birds of a feather_ thing.

I get it.
Some (people) (friends) are capable of overlooking the moral failings in others that do not directly impact them.

Know, however, that her wayward ways will always be in the back of 'their' minds.
She is tainted.

I would weigh each of those supposed friends and see if they have other overriding worth's that you value.

Remember, it was your wife's sins, not theirs.


_Are Dee-_


----------



## SunCMars

I often deeply wonder....

How is it her new lover, that other person, the POSOM, can think of her highly?

He is latching, has attached himself onto a cheater, um, from the _get-go_!

Now, if he has it in mind to dump her, after some period, then OK, he got his jollies off with a married woman.
Dirty mission accomplished.

But, if he marries her, he is the bigger fool, with him knowing her true worth.



Such dead and soured leaves are these, blowing and sailing over the _Wayward Seas_.


_Nemesis- _meow!


----------



## Kaliber

SunCMars said:


> I often deeply wonder....
> 
> How is it her new lover, that other person, the POSOM, can think of her highly?
> 
> He is latching, has attached himself onto a cheater, um, from the _get-go_!
> 
> Now, if he has it in mind to dump her, after some period, then OK, he got his jollies off with a married woman.
> Dirty mission accomplished.
> 
> But, if he marries her, he is the bigger fool, with him knowing her true worth.
> 
> 
> 
> Such dead and soured leaves are these, blowing and sailing over the _Wayward Seas_.
> 
> 
> _Nemesis- _meow!


You have no idea how many thirsty simps out there who are welling to wife up such a women!


----------



## manowar

Kaliber said:


> You have no idea how many thirsty simps out there who are welling to wife up such a women!


 * This is spot on. *

Are you the same kaliber that was on SI. Id check the stories once in a while over there. Average advice that deals only with the beta provider side of things. That site attracts very weak betas and men who dwell in victimhood. You were the only one giving solid RP advice. I recall you ripping Apparition the Clueless.


----------



## Goodatheart11

SunCMars said:


> I often deeply wonder....
> 
> How is it her new lover, that other person, the POSOM, can think of her highly?
> 
> He is latching, has attached himself onto a cheater, um, from the _get-go_!
> 
> Now, if he has it in mind to dump her, after some period, then OK, he got his jollies off with a married woman.
> Dirty mission accomplished.
> 
> But, if he marries her, he is the bigger fool, with him knowing her true worth.
> 
> 
> 
> Such dead and soured leaves are these, blowing and sailing over the _Wayward Seas_.
> 
> 
> _Nemesis- _meow!


 Funny you mention this. I had the same thought. Really how could he ever trust her knowing that they _met_ as the result of being unfaithful in a marriage. Also, how could she trust him long term knowing he just doesn’t put any value in the vows of marriage. In reality it seems like either a match made in hell or destined to fail. For my part, I actually said that very thing To her. Not to try and change anything, but instead to plant that thought like a virus that will just fester over time.


----------



## jparistotle

Goodatheart11 said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I am hoping this community can provide me some advice.
> 
> My wife and I have been together for 9 years and married for just under 5 years. We have had what I would consider a really strong marriage with what I discern are typical long-term relationship challenges Which I will go into.
> 
> During our time together, my wife and I have been very supportive of each other’s personal progress. I have encouraged her to take elevated roles within her company while she has supported 2 promotions on my end which required moves within the state which we live. While the first move we made was in an isolated, lower population area which she did not like, fortunately, the second move was to a larger city and brought her closer to her family. This move was one that has allowed us to have some really amazing date nights due to where we live. We started our lives together in a 1 bedroom apartment and have built a life where we now have a 4 bedroom home and while we don’t have any children (we have agreed to focus on our careers for this time period of our lives). We have travelled together both internationally and within the US to several cities and I would say that the amount of things we have experienced together is extraordinary. She also works remotely so she doesn’t have any interaction with work associates. That said, she has found a group of girlfriends her age (early 30s) which are of a similar mindset (most have SO while a few are single). I am not controlling with her friends, never saying “no” when she is going out and never being paranoid about where she was or who she was with. I would say that’s a result of solid trust and confidence in the marriage on my end. In the end, I have been a supporter, provider, lover and friend throughout our relationship and marriage.
> 
> I say all of that “good” to put into perspective the “bad” things that she says have caused her to say ILYBINILWY and that she needs to do what makes her happy. Keep in mind that we have regular date nights (regular being at least every week or every other week at most) and lunch and breakfast dates sprinkled in. The things that need work are the “day to day”, the connecting at the end of a day, cuddling on the couch etc. Also, other than the times she and I were out together, I would sometimes turn down the rare invite to do a group outing with her friends and their significant others. I now understand why that would bother her because she wants to feel the same sense of pride or show off her spouse like the others do in those group situations.
> 
> Anyway, 2 weeks ago, she hit me with the “I’m packing a bag and staying with my mom for a week, I cant do this anymore and I need to be happy”. We have not spent one day apart in anger in 9 years, so of course this was a shock to my core. Needless to say, I am a loving husband so this was something I felt a.) I needed to reflect on what drove her to this space and b.) I needed to try and reconcile with my wife. Since that time, I have tried calling my wife (no response to phone calls) and texting her with my reflections on how I can be a better man and husband for her, including going on the trips with friends and spending quality time together each night. I received no response to that very long text message. I sent flowers to her mother‘s house with cards indicating my acceptance of responsibility in where we are and how we got here. She responded with only a “thanks for the flowers”. While she was away with her mother, I came to find out that she had texted her group of friends and said she wold need their support because she was making a life change and separating from me. Note that this is how I found out about the impending separation. So on Sunday, when she came back, I laid it all out. At least face-to-face I could say very calmly and without losing my cool, that I was committed to making these changes in our lives to make her happy And feel loved. I also recapped all of the great adventures we have been on and the life we have built together to let her know our story wasn’t finished yet. Her response to all of that was a very short, “I appreciate you saying that but I need to be happy and this doesn’t make me happy anymore.”
> 
> So with that she wants to sell our house and start the process of a divorce. We are going to live in the house together until it sells (her in the master, me in a guest bedroom). This has come completely out of the blue to me and even though I admit to being faulty in some areas, those areas are not unworkable to the point that you cant even communicate with your other half of 9 years.
> 
> A few days ago, curiosity got the better of me. I have never done this in our 9 years together but at this point I had to know. I looked at her phone and found the cause. She has been having an affair with another man. My guess is that since she is at home 99% of every day, that this came about either at the gym or during her time in her Master’s degree class (one day a week). Regardless of the when/where/how, she seems to have developed such a powerful relationship with this guy, that she is not only willing, but actively rushing into a divorce with the person who she grew and built life around. During this week after she said she wanted a divorce, she has been trying to goat me into getting angry or losing my cool. She gets annoyed when I try to talk to her in the house. She has yelled when I asked for simple closure. At all times, I have kept my cool and been calm in our conversations.
> 
> I guess my question to the group here is, why would a woman leave what seems to be a perfect life for a lustful one-off? If the things we shared together weren’t enough to deserve a conversation of “I’m not happy” before leaving, then I am not sure how any woman would be capable of ever being happy In life. I assume she is moving hard forward with the divorce and once the house sells that will be it. She probably will never even reflect on what she has just given up because there is already someone there to “make it better”.
> 
> What would you do in this situation? It is hard to be blindsided like this and from my perspective I’ve never wanted to spend a day apart much less not try to save the marriage. She just is not having any of that conversation. Do I just make plans to move on with my life? This is so raw no new I haven’t really even processed it yet, much less made that kind of a plan.
> 
> Any insight or guidance you may have is appreciated!


Do not waste your time. Let her mom know what is going on and then tell your soon to be ex Do not speak or call me ever again. I am no longer here for you


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## farsidejunky

Goodatheart11 said:


> Funny you mention this. I had the same thought. Really how could he ever trust her knowing that they _met_ as the result of being unfaithful in a marriage. Also, how could she trust him long term knowing he just doesn’t put any value in the vows of marriage. In reality it seems like either a match made in hell or destined to fail. For my part, I actually said that very thing To her. Not to try and change anything, but instead to plant that thought like a virus that will just fester over time.


It's all a fantasy. 

Affairs don't have the capability to recognize such rational thoughts...until exposure occurs.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Kaliber

manowar said:


> * This is spot on. *
> 
> Are you the same kaliber that was on SI. Id check the stories once in a while over there. Average advice that deals only with the beta provider side of things. That site attracts very weak betas and men who dwell in victimhood. You were the only one giving solid RP advice. I recall you ripping Apparition the Clueless.


Hay @manowar, yes its's me, I got kicked from SI 
I will post a separate topic in the "The Men's Clubhouse" today 

I don't want to thread jack this thread


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## Smilieman

{{post deleted - wrong thread}}


----------



## Talker67

Goodatheart11 said:


> Havent been avoiding anything here. I really appreciate the advice so far.
> I exposed to her friend group. She did not deny the cheating when they found out and even went so far as to say how it’s so hard because I’m a good man, supporter, blah blah. I guess not surprisingly the friends did not oust her immediately and instead “won’t take sides”. I probably thought a few of them had some level of integrity and would oust her but that’s not the case.
> House is listed and already has an above list offer within a few hours. She isn’t in the house at this point as she is “with her mom” aka “with OM” and it will sell within a few days so that’s that.
> She has been on a mantra of saying “this is not about anything or anyone else but us, I’m just not happy and haven’t been for a long time” which is such ****** on so many levels. My guess is the unhappiness started right around the time the POSOM started saying all the things she wanted to hear. It’s like watching someone put up an internal false narrative of a 9 year relationship to justify going outside of it. At this point I doubt she will ever truly let herself reflect on what she has actually done here.


after this whole whirlwind of bad juju is over, take some time to unwind. join a health club, go on long hikes, get in shape, really do a lot of physical things and work to get this all out of your mind. all of this will pass, and you will pop out the other side a stronger person! good luck!


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## Kaliber

Talker67 said:


> after this whole whirlwind of bad juju is over, take some time to unwind. join a health club, go on long hikes, get in shape, really do a lot of physical things and work to get this all out of your mind. all of this will pass, and you will pop out the other side a stronger person! good luck!


☝


----------



## BigDaddyNY

Kaliber said:


> ☝


Stories like this are just so sad. I actually get a visceral reaction when I read these things. It is mind-boggling how terrible some humans can be. How could the POSOM's penis be so good that it makes a wife fall in love with it so deeply and quickly that she will flip the bird at her long-term husband, kids and family? And how could a husband be so blind that they don't see this coming? Does love really make us that stupid?


----------



## Goodatheart11

BigDaddyNY said:


> Stories like this are just so sad. I actually get a visceral reaction when I read these things. It is mind-boggling how terrible some humans can be. How could the POSOM's penis be so good that it makes a wife fall in love with it so deeply and quickly that she will flip the bird at her long-term husband, kids and family? And how could a husband be so blind that they don't see this coming? Does love really make us that stupid?


Agree with the first part but as for being “blind”, it can very easily not be seen. She is taking master’s classes and presumably that’s where this started. Sure I could have been the possessive person, texting every minute to see where she is and acting like an insecure person. Instead I put my trust in her. I don’t think that makes me blind. The trust was misplaced in this case, but I’d rather have trust in a marriage and risk it not working out versus being paranoid every minute and having something happen anyway.


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## DownByTheRiver

The ILYBINILWY is the whole reason. Despite your nice daily life, the thrill is gone for her. Women more than men seem to need that passion of a romantic love, and honestly, it's hard to have that with someone you've been with for years, even if they're doing everything right. I can see why it's so hurtful. Many women but not all crave that excitement of a new love, and then burn through that and leave if they don't get stuck with kids or financial reasons. Certainly men get restless too, looking over the fence. But men sexually are much more flexible in the sexual sense. They can enjoy sex with or without love or passion, for the most part. So can some women, certainly, but I would say for the large part, they want to have more emotions going to really enjoy themselves, whether that is true love, just lust, or just the mystery and hope that the next will be "the perfect one" that doesn't exist. 

I would say be glad you didn't have kids and can just walk away. 

The other thing is I don't know how young you were when you got together, but people who couple up young and stay that way several years very commonly get to regretting they didn't explore more. True, you've certainly both done a lot of traveling and had fun, but I guess "explore" is subjective. She's restless and needs something. She literally may never find "it." No doubt the man won't last forever, and he's likely to make you look pretty good in comparison. He is, after all, taking up with a married woman, apparently. Not a good start. 

Start living your life. Get an attorney. Stop trying to please her because desperation isn't attractive, even when it's totally well meaning.


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## Marc878

The thrill is always gone when they start banging someone else. All it takes to get there is low morals.


----------



## BigDaddyNY

Goodatheart11 said:


> Agree with the first part but as for being “blind”, it can very easily not be seen. She is taking master’s classes and presumably that’s where this started. Sure I could have been the possessive person, texting every minute to see where she is and acting like an insecure person. Instead I put my trust in her. I don’t think that makes me blind. The trust was misplaced in this case, but I’d rather have trust in a marriage and risk it not working out versus being paranoid every minute and having something happen anyway.


I wasn't directing the blind question directly at just you. I meant it in more general or philosophical terms. I think we are all blinded by love to some degree. We can't believe this person we share our deepest emotional connection with could ever intentionally do something to hurt us. I think that blinds us to what is going on. If we were more objective about the situation we could probably see what is coming much sooner and possibly change course. It is just very sad that one person can be do callous to another they supposedly love and we can't even see it until it is too late.


----------



## ABHale

DownByTheRiver said:


> The ILYBINILWY is the whole reason. Despite your nice daily life, the thrill is gone for her. Women more than men seem to need that passion of a romantic love, and honestly, it's hard to have that with someone you've been with for years, even if they're doing everything right. I can see why it's so hurtful. Many women but not all crave that excitement of a new love, and then burn through that and leave if they don't get stuck with kids or financial reasons. Certainly men get restless too, looking over the fence. But men sexually are much more flexible in the sexual sense. They can enjoy sex with or without love or passion, for the most part. So can some women, certainly, but I would say for the large part, they want to have more emotions going to really enjoy themselves, whether that is true love, just lust, or just the mystery and hope that the next will be "the perfect one" that doesn't exist.
> 
> I would say be glad you didn't have kids and can just walk away.
> 
> The other thing is I don't know how young you were when you got together, but people who couple up young and stay that way several years very commonly get to regretting they didn't explore more. True, you've certainly both done a lot of traveling and had fun, but I guess "explore" is subjective. She's restless and needs something. She literally may never find "it." No doubt the man won't last forever, and he's likely to make you look pretty good in comparison. He is, after all, taking up with a married woman, apparently. Not a good start.
> 
> Start living your life. Get an attorney. Stop trying to please her because desperation isn't attractive, even when it's totally well meaning.


This is not most women. Some women yes. It seems to hit women that are spoiled who’s parents gave them everything. Also those that were party animals and crave the excitement again. The same can be said about guys that cheat. Parents that never taught integrity or morals to them.

Then the question becomes, did she ever really love OP. The first guy to come along whispering sweet nothings got her pants off.


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## Imnobodynew

How you doing? Hows things progressing. Remeber that she's the one who did this NOT you. You walk away with 9 years of wonderful memories you didn't taint, and you can look at the love of your life [not this version] and say I love you and mean it wholeheartedly. She gave you a gift in a way. You can walk away clean knowing who you are. 

She want a man who will cheat with her while she's married and he wants someone else's woman.... hmmmm they deserve one another. Look at this from the outside. If your co worker was dating another married co worker and it didnt work out, and she suddenly came on to you. Would you kiss the mouth that's been on a unclean pecker? I wouldn't lol

Do the 180. Read nmmng. Get ic. Grow from this and let it help you pick a better someone who has the same values you do.


Its telling when someone says "this no longer makes me happy" it should be I'm not happy and I need to work on myself because something's wrong with me.


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## Goodatheart11

Imnobodynew said:


> How you doing? Hows things progressing. Remeber that she's the one who did this NOT you. You walk away with 9 years of wonderful memories you didn't taint, and you can look at the love of your life [not this version] and say I love you and mean it wholeheartedly. She gave you a gift in a way. You can walk away clean knowing who you are.
> 
> She want a man who will cheat with her while she's married and he wants someone else's woman.... hmmmm they deserve one another. Look at this from the outside. If your co worker was dating another married co worker and it didnt work out, and she suddenly came on to you. Would you kiss the mouth that's been on a unclean pecker? I wouldn't lol
> 
> Do the 180. Read nmmng. Get ic. Grow from this and let it help you pick a better someone who has the same values you do.
> 
> 
> Its telling when someone says "this no longer makes me happy" it should be I'm not happy and I need to work on myself because something's wrong with me.


Well there is a lot to update. I did expose to family and friends. The friends did not care unfortunately (shows their character). Her father did call me and thoroughly reassured me that from his viewpoint I did everything he could have asked to provide a great life for his daughter. He was not supportive of her decisions. It was good to hear him say some very positive things to me just for the knowledge that externally, people did see that she gave up a really good thing.

I’ve also come to find out a lot about the OM. Divorced twice before, goes after women with money, real piece of work. The further I dug, the more Jerry Springer-ish it got, which again makes it easier to just move on. There are still good days and bad days, but the bad days aren’t about her really, they are fear of starting over at 40 and thinking that i’m too old to start from scratch.

I’ve definitely started 180, will most likely start ic as well. Not sure what nmmng is but I’ll try to find it in the acronyms, 

This community has given me some good advice to help get on with my life. Here’s hoping I can get back to it pretty quick.


----------



## Imnobodynew

Goodatheart11 said:


> Well there is a lot to update. I did expose to family and friends. The friends did not care unfortunately (shows their character). Her father did call me and thoroughly reassured me that from his viewpoint I did everything he could have asked to provide a great life for his daughter. He was not supportive of her decisions. It was good to hear him say some very positive things to me just for the knowledge that externally, people did see that she gave up a really good thing.
> 
> I’ve also come to find out a lot about the OM. Divorced twice before, goes after women with money, real piece of work. The further I dug, the more Jerry Springer-ish it got, which again makes it easier to just move on. There are still good days and bad days, but the bad days aren’t about her really, they are fear of starting over at 40 and thinking that i’m too old to start from scratch.
> 
> I’ve definitely started 180, will most likely start ic as well. Not sure what nmmng is but I’ll try to find it in the acronyms,
> 
> This community has given me some good advice to help get on with my life. Here’s hoping I can get back to it pretty quick.


No more mr nice guy is a book. Buy and read did me wonders. dont engage. Do your own thing. Smile. Your the prize, shes stupid enough to fall for the player. Shrug

Keep a var [ voice activated recorder] on you. Shes trying to entice you into an argument? Just shrug and laugh I've got not time for this shister and work out. She comes up to talk .. reply with if its not about the divorce or separation you just don't got time for someone like her. You don't. Lifes too short. 
Dont seek her out.
Do your own thing. 
Go out at night, find a group of guys to hang with.
When the d is over. Keep traveling all over. Meet new people post about it on fb. Take pictures with hot women lol 

Just move forward. Dont worry about her.

Good update. Get the divorce rolling. Don't play at her level. Dont dirty yourself.


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## johndoe12299

Hi OP, very sorry you are going through this. I'm going through the same currently. Know that you are not alone and there are thousands others going through this. Stay strong


----------



## Wolfman1968

Goodatheart11 said:


> Well there is a lot to update. I did expose to family and friends. The friends did not care unfortunately (shows their character). Her father did call me and thoroughly reassured me that from his viewpoint I did everything he could have asked to provide a great life for his daughter. He was not supportive of her decisions. It was good to hear him say some very positive things to me just for the knowledge that externally, people did see that she gave up a really good thing.
> 
> I’ve also come to find out a lot about the OM. Divorced twice before, goes after women with money, real piece of work. The further I dug, the more Jerry Springer-ish it got, which again makes it easier to just move on. There are still good days and bad days, but the bad days aren’t about her really, they are fear of starting over at 40 and thinking that i’m too old to start from scratch.
> 
> I’ve definitely started 180, will most likely start ic as well. Not sure what nmmng is but I’ll try to find it in the acronyms,
> 
> This community has given me some good advice to help get on with my life. Here’s hoping I can get back to it pretty quick.


I hope you got that VAR. You will be having to interact with her at various points while the divorce is being finalized and you have to go through details of splitting property, etc. Good think, though, you have no kids, so after the ink is dry on the divorce, assuming no alimony, you can have zero contact with her for the rest of your days.


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## Imnobodynew

Isnt that just a relief? Whew. You dont have to ever tie yourself to thia crazy chick again. 🤪.


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## MattMatt

@Goodatheart11 If they met through her educational institute it's possible that POS is targeting suitable marks for his con game (which is what this is) through their organisation and they need to be made aware of this fact. Do this via a letter from your lawyer.


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## Marc878

Goodatheart11 said:


> Well there is a lot to update. I did expose to family and friends. *The friends did not care unfortunately *(shows their character). Her father did call me and thoroughly reassured me that from his viewpoint I did everything he could have asked to provide a great life for his daughter. He was not supportive of her decisions. It was good to hear him say some very positive things to me just for the knowledge that externally, people did see that she gave up a really good thing.
> 
> I’ve also come to find out a lot about the OM. Divorced twice before, goes after women with money, real piece of work. The further I dug, the more Jerry Springer-ish it got, which again makes it easier to just move on. There are still good days and bad days, but the bad days aren’t about her really, they are fear of starting over at 40 and thinking that i’m too old to start from scratch.
> 
> I’ve definitely started 180, will most likely start ic as well. Not sure what nmmng is but I’ll try to find it in the acronyms,
> 
> This community has given me some good advice to help get on with my life. Here’s hoping I can get back to it pretty quick.


If the supposed friends didn’t care about her cheating on you they are not your friend. Definition of friend = loyal, honest, trustworthy. You’d be smart to drop them.

“No More Mr Nice Guy” by glover is a free pdf download. It’s short and has helped many in your situation. Read it and apply. It’ll come in handy for new relationships.

Bud, life starts at 40. Your fear is totally unfounded. Just fix your picker. You will be amazed at how in demand a decent guy at that age is. So get out of the victim chair. Now!!!!


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## Marc878

The OM may be a scumbag but that’s who she picked over you. This is who she is. Get and stay well clear of her. You have no future there.

Nice job on exposure. It’s not your job to help hide her damn affair.


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## ArthurGPym

So sorry man. Follow the advice everyone is offering. Protect yourself and do everything you can to take control and get ahead of her legally. As painful as it is, realize she is the enemy. Your wife as you knew her died.


----------



## 342693

Ditto what others have said....get a lawyer and look out for yourself. A divorce is like war so be prepared. No more Mr Nice Guy. And when your wife gets kicked to the curb by new guy, don't be there with open arms. Once a cheat, always a cheat. You deserve better and will find it in time.


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## ArthurGPym

I'm going to be blunt: your WW is a ****. And your father in law is a coward. You dodged a bullet by getting away from some pretty vile people.


----------



## ArthurGPym

Goodatheart11 said:


> Agree with the first part but as for being “blind”, it can very easily not be seen. She is taking master’s classes and presumably that’s where this started. Sure I could have been the possessive person, texting every minute to see where she is and acting like an insecure person. Instead I put my trust in her. I don’t think that makes me blind. The trust was misplaced in this case, but I’d rather have trust in a marriage and risk it not working out versus being paranoid every minute and having something happen anyway.


You weren't blind. You didn't sign up to be watching your wife like a hawk every moment of every day of your marriage. Marriage is about trust, and she proved to be untrustworthy and selfish. You sound like a decent man who married a woman with zero personal boundaries and respect for no one, including herself. I guarantee their pretty little relationship will fizzle out badly. She may one day feel some regret for throwing away a good marriage, but her pride will never let her admit it to you, so treat her as if she died.


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## Luckylucky

Your father-in-law’s reaction is very telling - you married a girl who grew up with parents who gave her zero consequences. They palmed her off to you and probably breathed a sign of relief. Lazy parents.

And hey, the 40s are amazing! My favourite decade. Especially for men!!! She gave you a great gift for the fab 40s - it’s called FREEDOM!!! You’re quite a catch you know! Even your father in law told you you did nothing wrong. A 40-y-o man who is loyal is going to be someone’s treasure, she just hasn’t met you yet!


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## Imnobodynew

How are you doing thia week?
What steps are you taking for yourself?
What can we hold you accountable to here? 

The worst thing you can do is become paralyzed from the unknown. Keep moving. File. Look forward to the possibilities of all the women who will love you because you are not a cheater.


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## Goodatheart11

Imnobodynew said:


> How are you doing thia week?
> What steps are you taking for yourself?
> What can we hold you accountable to here?
> 
> The worst thing you can do is become paralyzed from the unknown. Keep moving. File. Look forward to the possibilities of all the women who will love you because you are not a cheater.


I‘m into week 4 of a CrossFit class and have noticeably improved my overall health. I wasn’t overweight before, but now more tone and just feel better. It is something I’ve been reading is a good thing to do during this time (take care of yourself). I think the next step is probably getting into IC.
ive been searching for new places to live and am close to a decision. I’ve never been great at being sociable while by myself. I won’t do any dating until the D is final so maybe that’s the opportunity. Just be social in this interim period of time.

I definitely do look forward to the opportunities ahead, just need to get the house sold, finalize D and start up from there. I will continue to work on myself in various ways in the meantime.


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## Imnobodynew

Goodatheart11 said:


> I‘m into week 4 of a CrossFit class and have noticeably improved my overall health. I wasn’t overweight before, but now more tone and just feel better. It is something I’ve been reading is a good thing to do during this time (take care of yourself). I think the next step is probably getting into IC.
> ive been searching for new places to live and am close to a decision. I’ve never been great at being sociable while by myself. I won’t do any dating until the D is final so maybe that’s the opportunity. Just be social in this interim period of time.
> 
> I definitely do look forward to the opportunities ahead, just need to get the house sold, finalize D and start up from there. I will continue to work on myself in various ways in the meantime.


Great update that's very encouraging to hear  look for a 40s something men's group? Meetup app? Get into a hobby, groups form around them. I sell motorcycles for a living. Clubs are great. My suggestion is to for something that suits you!
Dating can wait till your ready. I'd wait till you done with the divorce... but you can have female friends days alot about your character to future prospects.


Maybe look for a travel club or a cultural exchange club?
Exercise Is awsome! A great self security booster! Keep checking in friend.

I'd also suggest encouraging words to others here in JFO and divorce threads. It helps putting your own situation I. Perspective and gives others that can relate to you and you to them encouragement!. 

Thank you for checking in!


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## Imnobodynew

Hey OP.
I hope you l this post finds you in a better place then last week. How's the detachment going? Did you get a VAR? New friends? Find your own place? Divorce?


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## Smilieman

ArthurGPym said:


> So sorry man. Follow the advice everyone is offering. Protect yourself and do everything you can to take control and get ahead of her legally. As painful as it is, realize she is the enemy. *Your wife as you knew her died*.


I can second this. I am going through the exact same thing now and boy, the woman who I have known for 21 years, have lived with for 19 and have been married to for over 11 years, has gone. I do not recognise the person I'm seeing now. 'Evil' is an understatement and it look slike she is also rewriting history and making me out to be something horrible, so that she doesn't need to take responsibility for having and affair and leaving (I assume)


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## johndoe12299

it's crazy how a switch just flips. That's what i'm having trouble with the most. Female brain can just flip on a dime when emotions are involved


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## Imnobodynew

Dont try to figure it. She can change on a dime. There was undercurrent issues there that she was not mature enough to put the effort into to fixing. They probably built over the years and it was easier for her to paint her reality as something else and run from herself. If that's not the case then she's emotionally and mentally screwed up, even more of a reason to ditch now. Not all women are like her, just the crazy ones who are lacking morals. How you doing op?

Edit typo


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## Hopeful Cynic

johndoe12299 said:


> it's crazy how a switch just flips. That's what i'm having trouble with the most. Female brain can just flip on a dime when emotions are involved





Imnobodynew said:


> Dont try to figure it. She can change on a dime. There was undercurrent issues there that she was not mature enough to put the effort into to fixing. They probably built over the years and it was easier for her to paint her reality as something else and run from herself. If that's not the case then she's emotionally and mentally screwed up, even more of a reason to ditch now. Not all women are like her, just the crazy ones who are lacking morals. How you doing op?


I don't think they change on a dime at all. I think they change slowly over time, but they pretend everything is okay so that you'll keep being a provider and so on. Or they make really subtle hints you are supposed to pick up on, so they can blame you for everything. They sustain this until they reach some sort of goal (often cheating to monkey-branch to a new partner, but it could also be finishing school and finding employment, or until the kids are grown), then they can let it out.


----------



## MEA

Lots of great advice here.
I’d like to add that if you do plan to take the master bedroom back, please consider installing nanny cams beforehand. If she is trying to set you up as an abuser, you are helpless in a “he said / she said” situation.
My dear husband of nearly a decade went through this with his ex wife - she went to great lengths to try to convince people and then law enforcement that he was an abuser. He was smart enough to record her every time and proved that he was actually the victim.


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## J_Money_Money

Goodatheart11 said:


> Thanks again all. Looking into a VAR just to protect myself. my Logical side says there is no reason to try to work through anything and to be honest she isn’t even looking for it so it doesn’t matter. I’m working on selling the house and finding a new place. Will take it from there. Definitely starting the 180 and debating exposure. I like the idea of exposure to her friends but not sure about via Facebook piece may go direct To them.


I’m late to the party but just wanna say that the people who say to do the 180 are dead right. Also, file on her now! Like, right now.

if she wakes up and then you wish to reconcile, the divorce can be stopped.

Definitely listen about the 180. It will serve you well whether reconciliation is in the picture or not. If so, it will wake her up possibly. If not, then you’ve retained some dignity. I just went through the same $h!t as you about 6 months ago. I did everything wrong. I didn’t know any better. Wish I would have found such advice then.

I lost a lot of dignity in the process, it’s been terrible.

I would also caution you about reconciliation. Even if she wakes up and says she wants it...even if she truly does want it..understand, THAT process is way harder than just divorcing her and starting over with a new and hopefully better woman. You may never truly trust her again. Understand that R is something very few are cut out for. Even in the best of R scenarios, it’s brutal and the chances of success are extremely slim.

Not saying it’s not possible, but am saying to really consider what that life would be like for you.

At the time, I did want R, but was denied even the opportunity. Looking back though and being honest with myself, it would only have prolonged the inevitable. There is just simply no way I could take her back or respect her after that. Maybe you could, I don’t know. But don’t just assume that you could because you’re emotions are telling you one thing right now.

It may be hard to believe right now, but a better life is ahead of you. I met a wonderful woman two weeks after my divorce was final. We just started our 5th month together and not only is she a better woman than my ex-wife, she’s waaaay hotter! We’re talking about marriage, we’ll see how it goes. But no matter what happens with her, I’m better off than chasing around an insane, cheating tramp.

Hang in there. Prayers for you this night.


----------



## Goodatheart11

Imnobodynew said:


> Hey OP.
> I hope you l this post finds you in a better place then last week. How's the detachment going? Did you get a VAR? New friends? Find your own place? Divorce?


To be honest not great. As easy as it sounds to just move on, it has not been easy In reality. Mostly because of the circumstance. We are in a stalemate until the house closes (only 2 weeks from now). That was the advice I got from a lawyer I spoke with, if I can wait out the house sale then I should do it so there is one less thing to fight over in the divorce and since we don’t have kids, that is the biggest “thing” to fight about. Everything else is tiny in comparison.

With that said, the house is fully on the way to close. All steps are completed at this point, just waiting it out. The next day I will be starting the D. Move in to the new place is August 25, which can’t come soon enough.

The hard part is that every god damn thing I see or do is something we did or enjoyed together. I’m not trying to be a victim and certainly not of the mindset that there would ever be a chance for R, there is just too much in this city that brings back a memory here or there. Waiting out the house sale has been difficult. I am starting IC on Saturday.



J_Money_Money said:


> I’m late to the party but just wanna say that the people who say to do the 180 are dead right. Also, file on her now! Like, right now.
> 
> if she wakes up and then you wish to reconcile, the divorce can be stopped.
> 
> Definitely listen about the 180. It will serve you well whether reconciliation is in the picture or not. If so, it will wake her up possibly. If not, then you’ve retained some dignity. I just went through the same $h!t as you about 6 months ago. I did everything wrong. I didn’t know any better. Wish I would have found such advice then.
> 
> I lost a lot of dignity in the process, it’s been terrible.
> 
> I would also caution you about reconciliation. Even if she wakes up and says she wants it...even if she truly does want it..understand, THAT process is way harder than just divorcing her and starting over with a new and hopefully better woman. You may never truly trust her again. Understand that R is something very few are cut out for. Even in the best of R scenarios, it’s brutal and the chances of success are extremely slim.
> 
> Not saying it’s not possible, but am saying to really consider what that life would be like for you.
> 
> At the time, I did want R, but was denied even the opportunity. Looking back though and being honest with myself, it would only have prolonged the inevitable. There is just simply no way I could take her back or respect her after that. Maybe you could, I don’t know. But don’t just assume that you could because you’re emotions are telling you one thing right now.
> 
> It may be hard to believe right now, but a better life is ahead of you. I met a wonderful woman two weeks after my divorce was final. We just started our 5th month together and not only is she a better woman than my ex-wife, she’s waaaay hotter! We’re talking about marriage, we’ll see how it goes. But no matter what happens with her, I’m better off than chasing around an insane, cheating tramp.
> 
> Hang in there. Prayers for you this night.


Thanks for the insight. I’ve been full 180 for over a month, but it has been mutual. There is no R coming at all nor would I want it at this point. Your end result does give me some hope that there is light at the end of the tunnel.


----------



## J_Money_Money

Goodatheart11 said:


> To be honest not great. As easy as it sounds to just move on, it has not been easy In reality. Mostly because of the circumstance. We are in a stalemate until the house closes (only 2 weeks from now). That was the advice I got from a lawyer I spoke with, if I can wait out the house sale then I should do it so there is one less thing to fight over in the divorce and since we don’t have kids, that is the biggest “thing” to fight about. Everything else is tiny in comparison.
> 
> With that said, the house is fully on the way to close. All steps are completed at this point, just waiting it out. The next day I will be starting the D. Move in to the new place is August 25, which can’t come soon enough.
> 
> The hard part is that every god damn thing I see or do is something we did or enjoyed together. I’m not trying to be a victim and certainly not of the mindset that there would ever be a chance for R, there is just too much in this city that brings back a memory here or there. Waiting out the house sale has been difficult. I am starting IC on Saturday.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the insight. I’ve been full 180 for over a month, but it has been mutual. There is no R coming at all nor would I want it at this point. Your end result does give me some hope that there is light at the end of the tunnel.


There’s light at the end. I saw you’re considering IC. Definitely do that. And if the therapist sucks or you get to a point when they are no longer useful, find a new one. But keep going until you feel you’re at a point where you’re comfortable without, maybe even beyond that.

I second the concept of not dating until D is final. Maintain your character, it will serve you well if/when you date again. To that point, IC will also serve you well if/when you date again. It will help you heal and process, yes, but beyond that...I found that women were actually turned on that I was going to IC. It also made them less wary of dating me right after a divorce where I was also cheated on. Just something I learned so I’m passing it on.

Let’s see what else...

Don’t date until you know you’re ready. And even if you think you are, you may not entirely be. In my case, I’m 50/50 on my timing in hindsight. On one hand, it definitely helped me get my self confidence back quickly. I didn’t use anyone and wasn’t looking for a rebound, either.

While it has definitely helped to find a new and better woman, just know that it doesn’t just erase the pain. It helps with it, but does not negate it, unfortunately. I found that grief comes and goes in waves and is not linear or logical. You’ve probably heard this already and it is true. I also have had to be very careful not to put all of my pain and healing and **** on my girlfriend’s plate. She is aware that I’m not fully healed, but my ex and whatever baggage I’m still dealing with is rarely a topic of discussion. Ironically, I’ve kind of had to compartmentalize my life much like a cheater does: there’s the part of me that concentrates on growing my new relationship and becoming closer with my girlfriend...and there’s a part that still hurts and I am having to drag into my future on some days. I found that a month or two into the relationship, I would still wake up angry at my ex and such. So in some ways I was more pissed 2 months after the divorce than the week of. Yeah, grief is weird.

I’m just being real, hombre. I’m not telling you not to date for any specific amount of time, nor am I telling you to date as soon as you become legally available. I’m just saying that what I did hasn’t necessarily been easy and finding a new woman didn’t just magically erase all the pain and such. That said, I’m still glad I started dating when I did but I also really was in a place where I could do it and not be a total sad sack of brokenness.

I also worked very hard at my healing (through IC and attitude) and I did some very specific spiritual things which opened the door for God to give me some healing that would have otherwise taken years or may not have come at all. If you don’t believe in God that’s certainly your prerogative, I’m just telling you what worked for me.

At this point, things are much better than they were even a month ago for me. It keeps getting better. Healing simply takes time, but less time if you actively pursue it and facilitate it.

I notice you talked about triggers. Things that remind you of stuff you used to do together and such. I feel you totally. My advice: face all that stuff head on. If you let a certain place become haunted to you, then it will be. So don’t let it. I still have triggers and memories when I go places, but it’s less and less. I never ran from any place and I’m glad I didn’t. Now I’m creating NEW memories with a new woman. It’s just a matter of time before those memories trump any old ones with the ex tramp.

It’s a fight my man, and it’s going to be. You just keep fighting and don’t stop. It WILL get better.


----------



## Rob_1

J_Money_Money said:


> I second the concept of not dating until D is final. Maintain your character, it will serve you well if/when you date again.


I hear this all the time, but this should be applied only if you're not emotionally ready, it wouldn't be fair to the people you'd be dating. Otherwise, divorce not being finished really means nothing. If you're ready to date, then date. You're not losing your integrity, nor any of that "is not right" morally nonsense by dating before divorce is finished. Once you know that the relationship is over for you, then is over and there's nothing morally stopping you from dating. When asked, my first wife said that yes she wanted a divorce, but I was done with the relationship already...so what did I do? i went ahead an set up a date for the next day. In my mind that was an awesome date (plus I got lucky) if you know what I mean. No regrets, no moral dilemmas. I knew that the right decision was made. No need to play the poor, poor, me martyr.


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## J_Money_Money

Rob_1 said:


> I hear this all the time, but this should be applied only if you're not emotionally ready, it wouldn't be fair to the people you'd be dating. Otherwise, divorce not being finished really means nothing. If you're ready to date, then date. You're not losing your integrity, nor any of that "is not right" morally nonsense by dating before divorce is finished. Once you know that the relationship is over for you, then is over and there's nothing morally stopping you from dating. When asked, my first wife said that yes she wanted a divorce, but I was done with the relationship already...so what did I do? i went ahead an set up a date for the next day. In my mind that was an awesome date (plus I got lucky) if you know what I mean. No regrets, no moral dilemmas. I knew that the right decision was made. No need to play the poor, poor, me martyr.


Well first off, no one is implying to play “poor me martyr”. Not sure where that came from, but let’s go ahead and nip that in the bud because I agree and besides, no woman wants a guy in that state anyhow.

Dating before the marriage is legally over makes you no better than the cheater in my opinion, and in the opinion of many others.

It’s a given that “the relationship is over” when divorce is filed, unless some changes of heart take place before it’s final.

What happens in a contentious divorce? What if you step outside of the marriage and your soon to be ex finds out - even if they cheated first?

Might it put you in a precarious situation and remove some legal leverage that you would have otherwise retained?

In a contested divorce, the cheater is less likely to get a lot of sympathy from a jury than the betrayed. But if both have legally cheated, the one who was betrayed first isn’t doing themselves any favors.

And yeah I can totally see how it’s easy to justify “eye for an eye” in that scenario. My ex wife would have LOVED for me to start dating before the divorce was final...but only because it would have made her feel better about her own disgusting actions. I was not going to give her that satisfaction.

I’ll end by saying this...most, if not all, of the women I dated after my divorce (including my current girlfriend) DID care whether or not I returned unfaithfulness with unfaithfulness..whether or not anyone thinks it’s fair, they cared. I wouldn’t even be with my current woman had I done such a thing because she wouldn’t have it. Of course, you can always lie to a woman but then you’re starting a relationship with a lie. And it’s not like she can’t look at the county records to see when the finalization happened.

In your case, it sounds like you just went to have sex as soon as possible..which I can totally understand. I’m not condemning you. The temptation crossed my mind, too. And if that’s what you were looking for then fair enough. 
I’m just pointing out that there can be negative effects of such a thing downstream. The one thing I can always tell any woman is that I was faithful until the end, and I like being able to honestly say that. And they like it, too.


----------



## J_Money_Money

Rob_1 said:


> Once you know that the relationship is over for you, then is over and there's nothing morally stopping you from dating.


This is the same logic used by cheaters to justify cheating...you realize that, right? 

I’m not trying to be a jerk or anything, either. I’m just pointing it out because this is precisely the kind of reasoning that everyone except for cheaters takes issue with. It’s the backbone of an affair. If we accept this as valid, then it means there is no such thing as infidelity.

Sorry, not sorry. I don’t accept this and frankly, no one should. When adults have marital problems, they fix them, accept them and stay married, or they get divorced. That’s it. Anything outside of that makes marriage nothing more than a suggestion as opposed to a covenant/oath.


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## Trident

J_Money_Money said:


> This is the same logic used by cheaters to justify cheating...you realize that, right?


No it isn't, not when the two parties are in the midst of a divorce.

It's all about the context which seemed to have slipped right on past you.


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## gr8ful1

J_Money_Money said:


> Dating before the marriage is legally over makes you no better than the cheater in my opinion, and in the opinion of many others.


Incredible. Equating what she did to him going on a date prior to the State gavel coming down officially pronouncing D? Total ********. So if you were in the same situation and somehow the State D process gets all gummed up with Covid and backlogs, and it takes 5 years to get it through, you’d be happy as a clam to sit there chaste while your STBX (“soon” being not so soon) while your WW turns into the town bicycle? 

OP, don’t listen to this. I absolutely agree he should wait until he’s ready but the marriage was FULLY OVER the moment she spread her legs for OM.


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## J_Money_Money

Trident said:


> No it isn't, not when the two parties are in the midst of a divorce.
> 
> It's all about the context which seemed to have slipped right on past you.


No, I get the context. I just happen to disagree. That's ok, right? For someone to disagree with you? 

Let me ask you something..actually a couple of things..

What about in the case of a contentious or contested divorce? Do you think it helps or hurts with a jury trial if the cheater's attorney can point at the betrayed and say things like "well they stepped out of the marriage, too?"

Granted, a jury might likely give more sympathy to the betrayed, but how much more if they didn't step out of the marriage before it was actually finished? People are emotional creatures, and despite guidelines from a judge, emotions still play a part in jury decisions. From a legal standpoint, I can virtually GUARANTEE YOU that any attorney who is worth a damn is going to tell you not to date until the marriage is legally put to death or a separation is legally established at the least. 

Apart from that - and this isn't a matter of MY OPINION OR YOURS - what I SAW was that actually decent women did care if I remained faithful until the last day. IT HELPED ME IN THE DATING GAME to be able to honestly say that I was faithful until it was over. Some women wouldn't care, this is true. But THE VAST majority did care, which sort of surprised me, but nonetheless they did. 

So if I'm getting out of a marriage to an objectively $h!tty person, wouldn't you think that I would want a really great woman my next go around? Wouldn't you? Not every woman who would date a man going through (but not finished with) a divorce is less than decent, this is true. But I can virtually guarantee you that a woman who wouldn't date you unless you were faithful to the end is at least decent, if not beyond decent. 

So my point? Even if you and I look at this differently from a moral standpoint, there are still LOGICAL reasons to proceed this way.


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## Evinrude58

I agree good women won’t date a guy that’s not fully divorced. However, when a spouse is cheated on and divorce is filed, I think morally they are good to go if they find a good person to date and do so. Once the vows are broken, there’s no longer any vows to break. It’s like someone shattering a mirror and blaming the other person in the room for stepping on the pieces on the way out and saying “you broke the glass!”.


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## Trident

J_Money_Money said:


> That's ok, right? For someone to disagree with you?


Sure but they're wrong.



J_Money_Money said:


> What about in the case of a contentious or contested divorce? Do you think it helps or hurts with a jury trial if the cheater's attorney can point at the betrayed and say things like "well they stepped out of the marriage, too?"


No one cares and there's hardly any divorce trials by jury, if any.



J_Money_Money said:


> From a legal standpoint, I can virtually GUARANTEE YOU that any attorney who is worth a damn is going to tell you not to date until the marriage is legally put to death or a separation is legally established at the least.


And you'd be wrong, again. No one cares.



J_Money_Money said:


> Apart from that - and this isn't a matter of MY OPINION OR YOURS - what I SAW was that actually decent women did care if I remained faithful until the last day.


And when I was dating, I met a lot of decent women who understood that I was for all practical purposes, divorced. I was just waiting for the gears of the slow legal process to churn so I could get the final stamp from the judge which took almost 3 years. Perhaps you have trouble meeting decent women and really need to up your game to the max, I had no issues.



J_Money_Money said:


> So if I'm getting out of a marriage to an objectively $h!tty person, wouldn't you think that I would want a really great woman my next go around? Wouldn't you?


Yes and yes.



J_Money_Money said:


> So my point? Even if you and I look at this differently from a moral standpoint, there are still LOGICAL reasons to proceed this way.


Sorry, not seeing it. Your conclusion does not support your premise.


----------



## J_Money_Money

gr8ful1 said:


> Incredible. Equating what she did to him going on a date prior to the State gavel coming down officially pronouncing D? Total ******. So if you were in the same situation and somehow the State D process gets all gummed up with Covid and backlogs, and it takes 5 years to get it through, you’d be happy as a clam to sit there chaste while your STBX (“soon” being not so soon) while your WW turns into the town bicycle?
> 
> OP, don’t listen to this. I absolutely agree he should wait until he’s ready but the marriage was FULLY OVER the moment she spread her legs for OM.


Interesting that any difference of opinion or moral standard which deviates from yours is "Total ********"...

"you’d be happy as a clam to sit there chaste while .." No one said anything about being "happy as a clam." None of this is "happy", it all sucks. I am saying that in hindsight, I am glad that I waited until the D was finished. No, I wasn't happy while I was waiting it out. Believe me, I was tempted as anyone else to get out there and begin dating the moment that I learned what she was up to. 

But at that time, what was my motivation? Revenge? To make myself feel better? Or to genuinely find a better woman for the long term? These motivations can be different for everyone, so that process of introspection can look different for everyone. But I believe that when it's still really fresh, most people likely don't have the proper healthy motivations to begin dating. And even if they do, they aren't likely in a good emotional place anyhow, which isn't fair to the other person. 

There's a lot more to consider than just "what makes me happy right now in this moment". 

With COVID, my D actually went through FASTER than it would have otherwise. Judges were just taking agreed-upon divorce decrees and signing them straight up without any of the parties having to be present. Now, I can imagine that in a contested D, it likely does take longer than standard. But then again, you can leave our moral disagreement out of it and just look at it logically. No good divorce attorney is going to tell a client to start seeing other people before the D is final, because it could potentially jeopardize the "best deal" for the client. Because again, BY LAW, stepping outside of the marriage BEFORE the finalization is infidelity, and it doesn't matter from a legal standpoint who "did it first" or "if it's fair". 

Your opinion seems to be based on sheer emotion (anger is clearly present, even to the degree that your shifting and aiming it at me for some reason). And don't get me wrong, I WANT THE CHEATER TO PAY as much as you, and I WANT THE BETRAYED TO FIND PEACE AND HAPPNINESS, too. 

I'll also tell you what I told the other one a moment ago...what I SAW was that actually decent women did care if I remained faithful until the last day. IT HELPED ME IN THE DATING GAME to be able to honestly say that I was faithful until it was over. Some women wouldn't care, this is true. But THE VAST majority did care, which sort of surprised me, but nonetheless they did.

So if I'm getting out of a marriage to an objectively $h!tty person, wouldn't you think that I would want a really great woman my next go around? Wouldn't you? Not every woman who would date a man going through (but not finished with) a divorce is less than decent, this is true. But I can virtually guarantee you that a woman who wouldn't date you unless you were faithful to the end is at least decent, if not beyond decent.

All of that to say... you're certainly entitled to your opinion. But there's no good reason to say I'm full of $h!t or whatever or to tell OP "not to listen" to me. There are some things I wish I'd done different and some things that I'm glad I did them the way I did. This is one of the latter. Your opinion based on generalities and vigilante justice or whatever doesn't negate my experience or the outcomes of my choices. My choice to wait until D was final before dating is one that not only am I proud of for myself (and please believe there were a lot choices I made which didn't leave me proud), it also benefitted me in other ways. OP can decide for himself what's the best course of action for him. Every one of us has a different story and there a variety of outcomes that we all found.. and OP has a variety of choices and possible outcomes for himself. Those choices will determine his outcome. They will determine a lot of his feelings after the dust settles. They will determine what type of woman he ends up with if he does indeed go for a round two. There's a lot at stake for him moving forward. I get that we're all here trying to help him. That includes both you and I. We don't have to agree on everything and that's fine. But to just assault someone because they have a different outlook is childish. If my choice didn't feed a good or better outcome for me, I'd be the first to say it. You can read my previous posts and there's plenty in there in the way of regrets and things I wish I'd have done differently. This just isn't one of them and you're not really in a position to just say across the board that doing what I did definitely wouldn't give OP a better outcome. 

OP, I'll leave you with this. My ex is bothered that I found a new woman (this is established verified fact through some of her reactions LOL)..even though SHE is the one who cheated and SHE is the one who filed for divorce. And you know what? I'm glad. That in itself is revenge.. just moving on with a better life is sufficient. But no matter what, she CAN'T turn around and say that "I am no better than she because I saw someone else while we were still married"...even though I agree that the first person who stepped out of the marriage is the one who really did wrong.. but you know how cheaters twist things.. I gave her no ammunition that could be used to twist my new relationship into being "no worse" than what she did.. and believe it, the cheater will use every opportunity to try and equivocate anything they do to things you do. 

It IS a good feeling to be able to honestly know and say that she is a piece of $h!t and I'm not, and there is NO WAY she can twist any of my actions to fit her narrative. EVERYONE KNOWS that I waited until the D was over before I found a new woman... so even if she were to try and twist it into "I'm a cheater, too", the truth protects me. 

Just my $0.02

Do whatever you want. Just think it through and think past how you feel now. Try to think in advance of how you're going to feel later (though it's easier said than done). Try to take steps to build the best future outcome for yourself, whatever that looks like. If you truly are ready to date before D is over and you want to, I'm not going to chastise you for it. I certainly understand. I considered it, too, afterall. I'm just saying that in hindsight, I'm personally glad I waited.


----------



## Rob_1

J_Money_Money said:


> Interesting that any difference of opinion or moral standard which deviates from yours is "Total Bull$h!t"...
> 
> "you’d be happy as a clam to sit there chaste while .." No one said anything about being "happy as a clam." None of this is "happy", it all sucks. I am saying that in hindsight, I am glad that I waited until the D was finished. No, I wasn't happy while I was waiting it out. Believe me, I was tempted as anyone else to get out there and begin dating the moment that I learned what she was up to.
> 
> But at that time, what was my motivation? Revenge? To make myself feel better? Or to genuinely find a better woman for the long term? These motivations can be different for everyone, so that process of introspection can look different for everyone. But I believe that when it's still really fresh, most people likely don't have the proper healthy motivations to begin dating. And even if they do, they aren't likely in a good emotional place anyhow, which isn't fair to the other person.
> 
> There's a lot more to consider than just "what makes me happy right now in this moment".
> 
> With COVID, my D actually went through FASTER than it would have otherwise. Judges were just taking agreed-upon divorce decrees and signing them straight up without any of the parties having to be present. Now, I can imagine that in a contested D, it likely does take longer than standard. But then again, you can leave our moral disagreement out of it and just look at it logically. No good divorce attorney is going to tell a client to start seeing other people before the D is final, because it could potentially jeopardize the "best deal" for the client. Because again, BY LAW, stepping outside of the marriage BEFORE the finalization is infidelity, and it doesn't matter from a legal standpoint who "did it first" or "if it's fair".
> 
> Your opinion seems to be based on sheer emotion (anger is clearly present, even to the degree that your shifting and aiming it at me for some reason). And don't get me wrong, I WANT THE CHEATER TO PAY as much as you, and I WANT THE BETRAYED TO FIND PEACE AND HAPPNINESS, too.
> 
> I'll also tell you what I told the other one a moment ago...what I SAW was that actually decent women did care if I remained faithful until the last day. IT HELPED ME IN THE DATING GAME to be able to honestly say that I was faithful until it was over. Some women wouldn't care, this is true. But THE VAST majority did care, which sort of surprised me, but nonetheless they did.
> 
> So if I'm getting out of a marriage to an objectively $h!tty person, wouldn't you think that I would want a really great woman my next go around? Wouldn't you? Not every woman who would date a man going through (but not finished with) a divorce is less than decent, this is true. But I can virtually guarantee you that a woman who wouldn't date you unless you were faithful to the end is at least decent, if not beyond decent.
> 
> All of that to say... you're certainly entitled to your opinion. But there's no good reason to say I'm full of $h!t or whatever or to tell OP "not to listen" to me. There are some things I wish I'd done different and some things that I'm glad I did them the way I did. This is one of the latter. Your opinion based on generalities and vigilante justice or whatever doesn't negate my experience or the outcomes of my choices. My choice to wait until D was final before dating is one that not only am I proud of for myself (and please believe there were a lot choices I made which didn't leave me proud), it also benefitted me in other ways. OP can decide for himself what's the best course of action for him. Every one of us has a different story and there a variety of outcomes that we all found.. and OP has a variety of choices and possible outcomes for himself. Those choices will determine his outcome. They will determine a lot of his feelings after the dust settles. They will determine what type of woman he ends up with if he does indeed go for a round two. There's a lot at stake for him moving forward. I get that we're all here trying to help him. That includes both you and I. We don't have to agree on everything and that's fine. But to just assault someone because they have a different outlook is childish. If my choice didn't feed a good or better outcome for me, I'd be the first to say it. You can read my previous posts and there's plenty in there in the way of regrets and things I wish I'd have done differently. This just isn't one of them and you're not really in a position to just say across the board that doing what I did definitely wouldn't give OP a better outcome.
> 
> OP, I'll leave you with this. My ex is bothered that I found a new woman (this is established verified fact through some of her reactions LOL)..even though SHE is the one who cheated and SHE is the one who filed for divorce. And you know what? I'm glad. That in itself is revenge.. just moving on with a better life is sufficient. But no matter what, she CAN'T turn around and say that "I am no better than she because I saw someone else while we were still married"...even though I agree that the first person who stepped out of the marriage is the one who really did wrong.. but you know how cheaters twist things.. I gave her no ammunition that could be used to twist my new relationship into being "no worse" than what she did.. and believe it, the cheater will use every opportunity to try and equivocate anything they do to things you do.
> 
> It IS a good feeling to be able to honestly know and say that she is a piece of $h!t and I'm not, and there is NO WAY she can twist any of my actions to fit her narrative. EVERYONE KNOWS that I waited until the D was over before I found a new woman... so even if she were to try and twist it into "I'm a cheater, too", the truth protects me.
> 
> Just my $0.02
> 
> Do whatever you want. Just think it through and think past how you feel now. Try to think in advance of how you're going to feel later (though it's easier said than done). Try to take steps to build the best future outcome for yourself, whatever that looks like. If you truly are ready to date before D is over and you want to, I'm not going to chastise you for it. I certainly understand. I considered it, too, afterall. I'm just saying that in hindsight, I'm personally glad I waited.


Listen dude, you're wrong on all aspects: legally, morally, psychologically, etc. It's perfectly fine if you want to abide by your codes, but do not come here to try to force feed it to others what you consider kosher. If a person feels ready to date after the relation is over, we'll more power to him/her. Once you legally sign and file, there's not legal penalties anywhere in the states for dating. Period.

So stick it to yourself is that's what you want to do, cut the crap, others can do as they please, not as you would want it to be.


----------



## gr8ful1

J_Money_Money said:


> even though I agree that the first person who stepped out of the marriage is the one who really did wrong.


Glad you‘ve reconsidered your previous assertion of moral equivalence between an adulterous spouse and one who dates after the marriage is dead in all aspects but the final legal decree.


----------



## johndoe12299

what an awful hijack.

Otherwise, good post earlier J Money telling OP about environmental triggers that reminded you of ex. Going throught htat now personally. Living in "our" house with our kids, everything reminds me of things we all did together. 

But, I like the idea of repainting cabinets/fireplace etc. Changing things up a bit and keeping hte kids in the house they've grown up in so far in their young lives.


----------



## GusPolinski

Ultimately the merits of waiting to date until after divorce is done vs jumping in once papers are filed will all come down to one’s personal perspective and isn’t really worth debating.

If the latter helps you to detach from your STBX and you can do it without dragging your baggage into the seat next to you, go for it.

OTOH, if you feel like you need to heal a bit before jumping in, you should absolutely do that.

Some people date better than others and can’t wait to get to it. Others not so much.

Be self aware and decisive.


----------



## Marc878

johndoe12299 said:


> what an awful hijack.
> 
> Otherwise, good post earlier J Money telling OP about environmental triggers that reminded you of ex. Going throught htat now personally. Living in "our" house with our kids, everything reminds me of things we all did together.
> 
> But, I like the idea of repainting cabinets/fireplace etc. Changing things up a bit and keeping hte kids in the house they've grown up in so far in their young lives.


If it were me I’d do a complete purge of the x and redecorate the home like you want it. Let the kids redo their rooms. Make it a new beginning.


----------



## Goodatheart11

J_Money_Money said:


> There’s light at the end. I saw you’re considering IC. Definitely do that. And if the therapist sucks or you get to a point when they are no longer useful, find a new one. But keep going until you feel you’re at a point where you’re comfortable without, maybe even beyond that.
> 
> I second the concept of not dating until D is final. Maintain your character, it will serve you well if/when you date again. To that point, IC will also serve you well if/when you date again. It will help you heal and process, yes, but beyond that...I found that women were actually turned on that I was going to IC. It also made them less wary of dating me right after a divorce where I was also cheated on. Just something I learned so I’m passing it on.
> 
> Let’s see what else...
> 
> Don’t date until you know you’re ready. And even if you think you are, you may not entirely be. In my case, I’m 50/50 on my timing in hindsight. On one hand, it definitely helped me get my self confidence back quickly. I didn’t use anyone and wasn’t looking for a rebound, either.
> 
> While it has definitely helped to find a new and better woman, just know that it doesn’t just erase the pain. It helps with it, but does not negate it, unfortunately. I found that grief comes and goes in waves and is not linear or logical. You’ve probably heard this already and it is true. I also have had to be very careful not to put all of my pain and healing and **** on my girlfriend’s plate. She is aware that I’m not fully healed, but my ex and whatever baggage I’m still dealing with is rarely a topic of discussion. Ironically, I’ve kind of had to compartmentalize my life much like a cheater does: there’s the part of me that concentrates on growing my new relationship and becoming closer with my girlfriend...and there’s a part that still hurts and I am having to drag into my future on some days. I found that a month or two into the relationship, I would still wake up angry at my ex and such. So in some ways I was more pissed 2 months after the divorce than the week of. Yeah, grief is weird.
> 
> I’m just being real, hombre. I’m not telling you not to date for any specific amount of time, nor am I telling you to date as soon as you become legally available. I’m just saying that what I did hasn’t necessarily been easy and finding a new woman didn’t just magically erase all the pain and such. That said, I’m still glad I started dating when I did but I also really was in a place where I could do it and not be a total sad sack of brokenness.
> 
> I also worked very hard at my healing (through IC and attitude) and I did some very specific spiritual things which opened the door for God to give me some healing that would have otherwise taken years or may not have come at all. If you don’t believe in God that’s certainly your prerogative, I’m just telling you what worked for me.
> 
> At this point, things are much better than they were even a month ago for me. It keeps getting better. Healing simply takes time, but less time if you actively pursue it and facilitate it.
> 
> I notice you talked about triggers. Things that remind you of stuff you used to do together and such. I feel you totally. My advice: face all that stuff head on. If you let a certain place become haunted to you, then it will be. So don’t let it. I still have triggers and memories when I go places, but it’s less and less. I never ran from any place and I’m glad I didn’t. Now I’m creating NEW memories with a new woman. It’s just a matter of time before those memories trump any old ones with the ex tramp.
> 
> It’s a fight my man, and it’s going to be. You just keep fighting and don’t stop. It WILL get better.


Thank you for posting this. The thing that has been the most helpful has been getting the insights and experiences of people who are farther along in their process of recovery and moving on than I currently am. In a way it gives me hope that I don’t give to myself.

Started IC last week. It was mostly a download of what brought me there but there was discussion at the end that made me want to continue so I will be going back.

These are the things that hold me back from moving forward (not completely but I view it as running with a resistance band attached to a weight):

1. There was never a real conversation with STBXW. It was “I’m not happy so I’m leaving” then some attempts by me to have dialogue (which went nowhere), she left about a week later on the day I confronted her on the affair and now we’re living apart with no dialogue at all for ~6 weeks. I haven’t had much chance to really say anything to her. Not that it would do anything other than force her to face what she has done to me specifically. Right now, in my head, she hasn’t had to face anything at all. She’s monkey branched her life to this new guy and hasn’t had to face the impact of her actions.

2. In that same way, the complete disconnect is unsettling. It doesn’t seem human to spend every day with someone for almost 10 years and then cut off all emotion and communication with no remorse. Is this just how she avoids the guilt? Does she truly not give a ****? Are there any WW that can speak to this?


----------



## Rob_1

Goodatheart11 said:


> 1. There was never a real conversation with STBXW. It was “I’m not happy so I’m leaving” then some attempts by me to have dialogue (which went nowhere), she left about a week later on the day I confronted her on the affair and now we’re living apart with no dialogue at all for ~6 weeks. I haven’t had much chance to really say anything to her. Not that it would do anything other than force her to face what she has done to me specifically. Right now, in my head, she hasn’t had to face anything at all. She’s monkey branched her life to this new guy and hasn’t had to face the impact of her actions.


I know some people want to know (I think is based on hopium to have these type of conversation) why, but it really doesn't matter at all. The heart of the matter is that she whether abruptly, or ease you down to it, she dump you for another man, that's all it should matter. Move on.



Goodatheart11 said:


> In that same way, the complete disconnect is unsettling. It doesn’t seem human to spend every day with someone for almost 10 years and then cut off all emotion and communication with no remorse. Is this just how she avoids the guilt? Does she truly not give a ****? Are there any WW that can speak to this?


It might not sound human to you, but we humans have been doing it since..well since we are humans, no surprises here. Just read any forums in the internet about people leaving their partners for others and you'll see that is as common as common can be. You're saying these things because you're hurt and would want retribution. Once again who cares, and it really shouldn't matter if she gives a **** or not. She might or might not feel any guild at all, but again the end result is the same...she dump you for another man.

My motto always been: it doesn't matter the who, why, when, where, how many times, what it matters is that you did. Marriage/relationship is over. It wouldn't matter to me how deeply wounded I got, all I know the woman that betrays me is dead to me that very second and I would make every possible effort in this world to make sure that she nevers sees me again. I would ghost her 'Couse she would be dead to me. Specially for women gray rocking/ghosting is the worse thing that you can do to them (besides killing them economically). 

I understand that emotionally is hard for some people to let go, but let go you must. Give time time. Living a great happy life is the best revenge. Those that have boundaries, self respect, dignity, self worth do not ponder into the what ifs, why she/he won't tell me, etc., etc, they just get on on their life never looking back.


----------



## J_Money_Money

Goodatheart11 said:


> Thank you for posting this. The thing that has been the most helpful has been getting the insights and experiences of people who are farther along in their process of recovery and moving on than I currently am. In a way it gives me hope that I don’t give to myself.


You're very welcome. I'm glad you found a place where you can talk about how you feel and ask questions and such, it is helpful. For some reason, it took me several months to find subreddits for infidelity survivors and this site. Wish I had found such things much sooner. But anyway, yes I feel you. I can't believe it's been 9 months since my own separation and 6 since the divorce was final. It doesn't seem that long ago that I wasn't even sure I'd be able to live. Like, I legit wanted to blow my head off for several months. By the grace of God I didn't. I was tortured in that my ex tried to make me believe there was a chance to "save the marriage" but she never had any intent on actually giving me that chance. Without resources like this place and the wonderful people on Reddit, I had no way to know what I was really dealing with. And so I was left to being gaslighted and taking blame for all sorts of $h!t, carrying the entire burden of the marriage collapsing on my shoulders. While I certainly did share responsibility for our relationship issues, the truth is that is wasn't all on me. It took some time to realize that and I wish I had realized it earlier. The bottom line is that there is NEVER a valid excuse for cheating. NEVER. Cheating is an immature and destructive way of coping with issues that the OTHER PERSON has. It's not even about you. That can be a hard thing to understand or accept, but it's true. While everyone walking the planet has issues and baggage, some people choose to deal with those issues in more healthy ways than others. My ex wife had issues predating our relationship, that much I already knew. I never dug into exactly what they were or how much she was impacted by them. I was her second marriage, and had I been a bit smarter I would have dug more into what happened her first time around. I eventually did dig into it after the separation by contacting her first ex husband. I learned that many of my complaints about her (unrelated to cheating) were valid. She basically has a pattern of behavior that she is unwilling to address and her life will continue in the present cycle unless and until she addresses it. Over all point being that you may or may not have had a wonderful relationship with her and either way it doesn't matter because the issues she has which drive/tempt her towards this type of behavior are HER issues and have nothing to do with you. So try to remember that. 



Goodatheart11 said:


> Started IC last week. It was mostly a download of what brought me there but there was discussion at the end that made me want to continue so I will be going back.


Good. I highly suggest staying on this track. I know for guys it can be tough for us to "go to a counselor" because (to me at least) it seems like a bunch of horse$h!t. And sometimes it is.. but it WILL help you sort out some things that you either won't sort out otherwise or will take a looooong time to sort out otherwise... 

Not saying this is true in your case, but here's an example of how it helped me.. I was left to believe that I had an "unhealthy attachment style." Which if true, would have been a problem moving forward with or without my now ex. Say I get into a new relationship and I start repeating unhealthy patterns... not good. So my therapist tested me for my attachment style. It turned out that I have a healthy attachment style, which is good to know.. but even with this being the case, I knew that I had emotionally withdrawn from my ex-wife when we were still married (this was a big part of our relationship issues), so the next thing to figure out was why I had done this? It turned out that I had emotionally withdrawn from her largely because of things SHE had done. It was a defense mechanism that kicked into gear to protect myself from, again, her $h!tty patterns of behavior. Of course, she never knew or saw that because she's a moron with absolutely zero capability for self-awareness or introspection.. but nonetheless, it helped ME to make sense of things that happened in the past. THAT ALONE was a huge thing for me for two reasons. One, it helped me to know that my emotional withdrawal from her wasn't all my fault (if my fault at all). Two, it helped me to realize there is a set of behaviors that I will never again tolerate in a mate. Which made me more picky my next time around. It took me three therapists and probably 4 months to get this information out of myself, but it happened because I was persistent. My first therapist became worthless at some point. Same with the second. The third had new and other things to offer. So go as many times and to as many people as you need to process things, make sense of things, and feel better. 



Goodatheart11 said:


> 1. There was never a real conversation with STBXW. It was “I’m not happy so I’m leaving” then some attempts by me to have dialogue (which went nowhere), she left about a week later on the day I confronted her on the affair and now we’re living apart with no dialogue at all for ~6 weeks. I haven’t had much chance to really say anything to her. Not that it would do anything other than force her to face what she has done to me specifically. Right now, in my head, she hasn’t had to face anything at all. She’s monkey branched her life to this new guy and hasn’t had to face the impact of her actions.


This is tough, I know. We all know. In my case, she was just trying to start fights and get me to act out so that she could say "aha" and then cite whatever as her reason for leaving.. I also didn't know of the affair until after separation.. So before that, she was literally making things up that weren't even true and rewriting the history of the marriage. At the time I thought it was insane. It wasn't until later that I learned this is common behavior for cheaters. Yes, dialog with them is pointless when there's an affair in full swing. 100% pointless. And if you think you're going to "get answers", well.. you might and might not.. but probably not. That was one of the hardest things to swallow for me. Like, ok.. do whatever you're going to do, but I at least deserve the truth, right? Keep in mind, you're dealing with someone who has been lying to both you and themselves for some decent amount of time...so to expect to suddenly get truth is a waste of time. Hard to swallow, I know. I still struggle with it some days.. and yes, the idea that they haven't had to "face anything".. just unnerving.. This is one reason why people often suggest that you OUT THEM to everyone. It FORCES them to at least have to live their life as what they've chosen to be: a cheater... as opposed to being a cheater but being allowed to continue lying and tricking everyone else.. In any case, what I've learned is that much of their behavior is a way to offset guilt and shame.. so like, my ex was blaming me for everything short of the Iraq war and 9/11...it was disgusting and made no sense at all until I discovered that this was her way of fighting against her own guilt. But you know what? That guilt will eat them alive..perhaps slowly, yes.. but nonetheless it will.. 

And don't believe for one second that their life with be peachy keen. There may be delayed consequences, but that hammer WILL fall at some point. Because see, again, none of these cheaters have actually DEALT with any of their issues. They will continue being unhappy and whatever relationship she's in now or later will crash and burn in spectacular fashion for that reason alone, if not for others. Others include the fact that she's a known cheater... the OM knows this.. and if it's anything like my scenario, both my ex and the OM are known cheaters.. two known cheaters are going to trust one another? It's a ridiculous proposition. Fantasy land horse$h!t, right? Yep. Because the WHOLE THING is a fantasy built on a house of cards. TRUST is the foundation of any relationship, romantic or otherwise. Once that's gone, there is NOTHING. And guess what? Their relationship BEGAN on lies! There is no trust there even now. There might be endorphins and $h!t masquerading as trust, sure.. but that is unsustainable. NOT EVEN SEX can replace trust. NOTHING CAN. And honeymoon phases end. Sooner or later, something will happen that will expose to one (or both) of them that "hey, I can't trust this person!" And it all goes from there. Only a matter of time, my friend. Unfortunately for us, we may not get a front row seat to the carnage. So you just have to know it's going to happen if it hasn't yet. If you're lucky, you will get to see or hear of it happening when it does. But even if not, just trust that it will. Because IT WILL. 

In my case, I know enough to know that she was bothered by my 180, even though that 180 didn't happen until after the divorce.. you see, she thought I'd still pursue her after a divorce.. I probably would have had I not known about the affair as I was blaming myself for everything before I knew..when that didn't pan out and I completely flipped directions and attitude on her, lol....suddenly she's finding "reasons" to email me.. trying to offer me things.. tried to get my new address at some point.. and then she had a reaction on social media when I got a girlfriend...I posted a pic of us haha....that reaction showed that she wasn't exactly indifferent to me moving on with a new woman.. it probably didn't hurt that my girlfriend is hotter than my ex, too. So you see, things have a way of panning out, my friend.. but that only happens if you keep fighting through all this yucky crap you're currently dealing with. Find some motivation (it sounds like you have done this) and stay with it..For me, the motivation was that this b*tch was not going to be allowed to ruin my life. I was determined to find a hotter and better woman for myself.. both for me and to SHOVE IT IN HER F***ING FACE. And I did. And when her relationship crumbles (if it hasn't already, I don't know), I'm still with a better and hotter woman who I intend to marry and make babies with. 

At the end of the day, YOU AND I BOTH DODGED A BULLET. Yes it hurts. Yes it sucks. But you still dodged a bullet. Because think of it.. otherwise, what do you really have? You would have been married to a person who not only doesn't have the compunction not to cheat, but you might have never even known it! That's terrible, brother. My biggest regret is that I wasted 8 years of my life with that c*nt. That's hard to swallow. But it's getting easier because what was the alternative? Waste another 8 years? 10? Then it crashes when I'm 50? Better now than later. And also, if all this awful $h!t hadn't happened, I wouldn't be with my current woman. So there's that. 

This may not mean much to you now because of where you are in the timeline, but just know there will be a point soon when you will be dating again and then you have a whole world of possibilities in front of you that you would have never had being married to that cheating wench. 





Goodatheart11 said:


> 2. In that same way, the complete disconnect is unsettling. It doesn’t seem human to spend every day with someone for almost 10 years and then cut off all emotion and communication with no remorse. Is this just how she avoids the guilt? Does she truly not give a ****? Are there any WW that can speak to this?


Yep it's CRAZY, isn't it? It's also normal behavior for cheaters...I was dumbfounded when I discovered this, but it's true. Same thing happened with me, though there was still some communication.. but that communication was worthless.. it was just her being a total c*nt for no discernable reason. Then the communication eventually got less and less.. and it hit a wall when I learned of the affair and called her out on it.. again, they can't face the truth of what they've done, so they choose to live in a fantasy world so to kick the can of guilt down the road. But eventually, reality WILL hit. I've already covered this, so you already know. 

HANG IN THERE. WE ARE HERE FOR YOU, MAN. We might not all agree on whatever advice we give you, but everyone here has your best interests at heart. We're all pulling for you. And you know what? I can tell just from what you've written, what you're doing, that you are strong. You WILL make it through this garbage. Cry when you need to cry. Vent when you need to vent. Nothing wrong with it. It will help you. Allow yourself to feel and to grieve. It's all normal, though it does suck. Whatever you do though, don't give up on yourself and keep on the track you're on with the physical activity and IC.


----------



## J_Money_Money

Rob_1 said:


> I know some people want to know (I think is based on hopium to have these type of conversation) why, but it really doesn't matter at all. The heart of the matter is that she whether abruptly, or ease you down to it, she dump you for another man, that's all it should matter. Move on.


This may be true, but it seems there's very little consideration for where OP CURRENTLY IS in the timeline. To tell someone "move on" as if there's just some button they can push is absurd. I remember wanting to choke every ************ who callously told me this when I was in the middle of the storm of grief. I don't know you or your situation, granted. But odds are, you didn't just "move on" on a dime in the middle of your storm, either. If you did, then good for you. But either way, understand that most people are still in shock and intense grief when they are where this guy is right now. People "move on" on their own timelines. Granted, if the guy was still a total mess 3 years later, some tough love might be in order. But when you put it the way you're putting it, it has a tendency to 1) minimize the pain he's feeling and 2) put an expectation on him that is right now in this moment in time, ridiculous. 



Rob_1 said:


> It might not sound human to you, but we humans have been doing it since..well since we are humans, no surprises here. Just read any forums in the internet about people leaving their partners for others and you'll see that is as common as common can be. You're saying these things because you're hurt and would want retribution. Once again who cares, and it really shouldn't matter if she gives a **** or not. She might or might not feel any guild at all, but again the end result is the same...she dump you for another man.


Nothing of any real value here at all. "People have been doing it for a long time, therefore it shouldn't be that big of a deal." Yeah well, until recently, none of those "people who do it all the time" were THIS GUY'S WIFE. More minimization of what the guy is dealing with. Zero compassion at all. Are you even trying to help? Or just sound tough on the internet?

People have also been murdering one another forever.. but if your own mother were brutally killed tomorrow, would it help or hurt you for someone to say "well no one cares because people have killed one another for thousands of years." 



Rob_1 said:


> My motto always been: it doesn't matter the who, why, when, where, how many times, what it matters is that you did. Marriage/relationship is over. It wouldn't matter to me how deeply wounded I got, all I know the woman that betrays me is dead to me that very second and I would make every possible effort in this world to make sure that she nevers sees me again. I would ghost her 'Couse she would be dead to me. Specially for women gray rocking/ghosting is the worse thing that you can do to them (besides killing them economically).


Wait a minute... have you actually been in a marriage where you were cheated on? Because it sounds like a whole lot of hypotheticals and zero actual experience. " I WOULD do this" and "it WOULDN'T matter" and such. Like the guy who says how he'd "shoot all the terrorists in the face" but then never signed up for the military, much less has he been to war. 

I'm not accusing, just asking a question.. because it SOUNDS like you have a lot of wonderful theories but no real practice of those theories...

The fact of the matter is that either way, THE MAN IN THE ARENA is the one who really counts.. and that excludes both you and I.. the man in the arena here is OP. But if you've never even been in the arena, well.... 



Rob_1 said:


> I understand that emotionally is hard for some people to let go, but let go you must. Give time time. Living a great happy life is the best revenge. Those that have boundaries, self respect, dignity, self worth do not ponder into the what ifs, why she/he won't tell me, etc., etc, they just get on on their life never looking back.


Oh, good to see that you understand that it's "emotionally hard." Kinda hard to get that from all of your previous statements..but no real complaints for this particular block of text as a standalone.. This block of text actually is good advice.


----------



## Goodatheart11

J_Money_Money said:


> You're very welcome. I'm glad you found a place where you can talk about how you feel and ask questions and such, it is helpful. For some reason, it took me several months to find subreddits for infidelity survivors and this site. Wish I had found such things much sooner. But anyway, yes I feel you. I can't believe it's been 9 months since my own separation and 6 since the divorce was final. It doesn't seem that long ago that I wasn't even sure I'd be able to live. Like, I legit wanted to blow my head off for several months. By the grace of God I didn't. I was tortured in that my ex tried to make me believe there was a chance to "save the marriage" but she never had any intent on actually giving me that chance. Without resources like this place and the wonderful people on Reddit, I had no way to know what I was really dealing with. And so I was left to being gaslighted and taking blame for all sorts of $h!t, carrying the entire burden of the marriage collapsing on my shoulders. While I certainly did share responsibility for our relationship issues, the truth is that is wasn't all on me. It took some time to realize that and I wish I had realized it earlier. The bottom line is that there is NEVER a valid excuse for cheating. NEVER. Cheating is an immature and destructive way of coping with issues that the OTHER PERSON has. It's not even about you. That can be a hard thing to understand or accept, but it's true. While everyone walking the planet has issues and baggage, some people choose to deal with those issues in more healthy ways than others. My ex wife had issues predating our relationship, that much I already knew. I never dug into exactly what they were or how much she was impacted by them. I was her second marriage, and had I been a bit smarter I would have dug more into what happened her first time around. I eventually did dig into it after the separation by contacting her first ex husband. I learned that many of my complaints about her (unrelated to cheating) were valid. She basically has a pattern of behavior that she is unwilling to address and her life will continue in the present cycle unless and until she addresses it. Over all point being that you may or may not have had a wonderful relationship with her and either way it doesn't matter because the issues she has which drive/tempt her towards this type of behavior are HER issues and have nothing to do with you. So try to remember that.
> 
> 
> 
> Good. I highly suggest staying on this track. I know for guys it can be tough for us to "go to a counselor" because (to me at least) it seems like a bunch of horse$h!t. And sometimes it is.. but it WILL help you sort out some things that you either won't sort out otherwise or will take a looooong time to sort out otherwise...
> 
> Not saying this is true in your case, but here's an example of how it helped me.. I was left to believe that I had an "unhealthy attachment style." Which if true, would have been a problem moving forward with or without my now ex. Say I get into a new relationship and I start repeating unhealthy patterns... not good. So my therapist tested me for my attachment style. It turned out that I have a healthy attachment style, which is good to know.. but even with this being the case, I knew that I had emotionally withdrawn from my ex-wife when we were still married (this was a big part of our relationship issues), so the next thing to figure out was why I had done this? It turned out that I had emotionally withdrawn from her largely because of things SHE had done. It was a defense mechanism that kicked into gear to protect myself from, again, her $h!tty patterns of behavior. Of course, she never knew or saw that because she's a moron with absolutely zero capability for self-awareness or introspection.. but nonetheless, it helped ME to make sense of things that happened in the past. THAT ALONE was a huge thing for me for two reasons. One, it helped me to know that my emotional withdrawal from her wasn't all my fault (if my fault at all). Two, it helped me to realize there is a set of behaviors that I will never again tolerate in a mate. Which made me more picky my next time around. It took me three therapists and probably 4 months to get this information out of myself, but it happened because I was persistent. My first therapist became worthless at some point. Same with the second. The third had new and other things to offer. So go as many times and to as many people as you need to process things, make sense of things, and feel better.
> 
> 
> 
> This is tough, I know. We all know. In my case, she was just trying to start fights and get me to act out so that she could say "aha" and then cite whatever as her reason for leaving.. I also didn't know of the affair until after separation.. So before that, she was literally making things up that weren't even true and rewriting the history of the marriage. At the time I thought it was insane. It wasn't until later that I learned this is common behavior for cheaters. Yes, dialog with them is pointless when there's an affair in full swing. 100% pointless. And if you think you're going to "get answers", well.. you might and might not.. but probably not. That was one of the hardest things to swallow for me. Like, ok.. do whatever you're going to do, but I at least deserve the truth, right? Keep in mind, you're dealing with someone who has been lying to both you and themselves for some decent amount of time...so to expect to suddenly get truth is a waste of time. Hard to swallow, I know. I still struggle with it some days.. and yes, the idea that they haven't had to "face anything".. just unnerving.. This is one reason why people often suggest that you OUT THEM to everyone. It FORCES them to at least have to live their life as what they've chosen to be: a cheater... as opposed to being a cheater but being allowed to continue lying and tricking everyone else.. In any case, what I've learned is that much of their behavior is a way to offset guilt and shame.. so like, my ex was blaming me for everything short of the Iraq war and 9/11...it was disgusting and made no sense at all until I discovered that this was her way of fighting against her own guilt. But you know what? That guilt will eat them alive..perhaps slowly, yes.. but nonetheless it will..
> 
> And don't believe for one second that their life with be peachy keen. There may be delayed consequences, but that hammer WILL fall at some point. Because see, again, none of these cheaters have actually DEALT with any of their issues. They will continue being unhappy and whatever relationship she's in now or later will crash and burn in spectacular fashion for that reason alone, if not for others. Others include the fact that she's a known cheater... the OM knows this.. and if it's anything like my scenario, both my ex and the OM are known cheaters.. two known cheaters are going to trust one another? It's a ridiculous proposition. Fantasy land horse$h!t, right? Yep. Because the WHOLE THING is a fantasy built on a house of cards. TRUST is the foundation of any relationship, romantic or otherwise. Once that's gone, there is NOTHING. And guess what? Their relationship BEGAN on lies! There is no trust there even now. There might be endorphins and $h!t masquerading as trust, sure.. but that is unsustainable. NOT EVEN SEX can replace trust. NOTHING CAN. And honeymoon phases end. Sooner or later, something will happen that will expose to one (or both) of them that "hey, I can't trust this person!" And it all goes from there. Only a matter of time, my friend. Unfortunately for us, we may not get a front row seat to the carnage. So you just have to know it's going to happen if it hasn't yet. If you're lucky, you will get to see or hear of it happening when it does. But even if not, just trust that it will. Because IT WILL.
> 
> In my case, I know enough to know that she was bothered by my 180, even though that 180 didn't happen until after the divorce.. you see, she thought I'd still pursue her after a divorce.. I probably would have had I not known about the affair as I was blaming myself for everything before I knew..when that didn't pan out and I completely flipped directions and attitude on her, lol....suddenly she's finding "reasons" to email me.. trying to offer me things.. tried to get my new address at some point.. and then she had a reaction on social media when I got a girlfriend...I posted a pic of us haha....that reaction showed that she wasn't exactly indifferent to me moving on with a new woman.. it probably didn't hurt that my girlfriend is hotter than my ex, too. So you see, things have a way of panning out, my friend.. but that only happens if you keep fighting through all this yucky crap you're currently dealing with. Find some motivation (it sounds like you have done this) and stay with it..For me, the motivation was that this b*tch was not going to be allowed to ruin my life. I was determined to find a hotter and better woman for myself.. both for me and to SHOVE IT IN HER F***ING FACE. And I did. And when her relationship crumbles (if it hasn't already, I don't know), I'm still with a better and hotter woman who I intend to marry and make babies with.
> 
> At the end of the day, YOU AND I BOTH DODGED A BULLET. Yes it hurts. Yes it sucks. But you still dodged a bullet. Because think of it.. otherwise, what do you really have? You would have been married to a person who not only doesn't have the compunction not to cheat, but you might have never even known it! That's terrible, brother. My biggest regret is that I wasted 8 years of my life with that c*nt. That's hard to swallow. But it's getting easier because what was the alternative? Waste another 8 years? 10? Then it crashes when I'm 50? Better now than later. And also, if all this awful $h!t hadn't happened, I wouldn't be with my current woman. So there's that.
> 
> This may not mean much to you now because of where you are in the timeline, but just know there will be a point soon when you will be dating again and then you have a whole world of possibilities in front of you that you would have never had being married to that cheating wench.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep it's CRAZY, isn't it? It's also normal behavior for cheaters...I was dumbfounded when I discovered this, but it's true. Same thing happened with me, though there was still some communication.. but that communication was worthless.. it was just her being a total c*nt for no discernable reason. Then the communication eventually got less and less.. and it hit a wall when I learned of the affair and called her out on it.. again, they can't face the truth of what they've done, so they choose to live in a fantasy world so to kick the can of guilt down the road. But eventually, reality WILL hit. I've already covered this, so you already know.
> 
> HANG IN THERE. WE ARE HERE FOR YOU, MAN. We might not all agree on whatever advice we give you, but everyone here has your best interests at heart. We're all pulling for you. And you know what? I can tell just from what you've written, what you're doing, that you are strong. You WILL make it through this garbage. Cry when you need to cry. Vent when you need to vent. Nothing wrong with it. It will help you. Allow yourself to feel and to grieve. It's all normal, though it does suck. Whatever you do though, don't give up on yourself and keep on the track you're on with the physical activity and IC.


Man this is some of the most therapeutic stuff I’ve ever read. So much of this is so spot on it’s scary. I will be returning to this post throughout my recovery I think. Thank you again for taking the time to post all of it.

Most of all, knowing in my heart that even though I may not see it, at some point the parade of unicorns and rainbows that are currently in her head are going to come to an end. It might seem needlessly vengeful but I have to believe that this level of betrayal isn’t simply going to work out like she wants.


----------



## J_Money_Money

Goodatheart11 said:


> Man this is some of the most therapeutic stuff I’ve ever read. So much of this is so spot on it’s scary. I will be returning to this post throughout my recovery I think. Thank you again for taking the time to post all of it.
> 
> Most of all, knowing in my heart that even though I may not see it, at some point the parade of unicorns and rainbows that are currently in her head are going to come to an end. It might seem needlessly vengeful but I have to believe that this level of betrayal isn’t simply going to work out like she wants.


It's spot on because I'm just a little further ahead on the same road, brother. I will say that I was extremely blessed in that I found a great woman within the same month that my divorce was final. Turns out, she is also a BS...so there's common ground there, LOL. To get back in the saddle that quickly isn't common, I know this. But, it is possible. But dude, I was on a MISSION, let me tell you. By the time the dust settled, I knew what I was looking for in a woman with probably more clarity than I'd ever had before.. and it's all thanks to my $h!tty ex wife. I didn't waste time with any woman who didn't meet my new standards. I moved on. I was talking to 15 at a time, just going through them as fast as possible and weeding out those who didn't fit the bill. All that to say, I worked extremely hard at dating. I was doing it with a real purpose. 

One good thing you can take from all of this as that time passes and you process things, you'll notice certain character traits that your ex had - which may have had nothing directly to do with being a cheater - and a lightbulb will go off... you'll think well, there's another red flag or a non-negotiable. By the time I got to this point, I had a long list of things that weren't acceptable..things that in my previous years, I didn't even know to look out for but will no longer accept in a potential mate. 

And lots of people will try to make you feel bad for wanting vengeance. I certainly won't chastise you for it. I've wanted it, too. There are still some days I wake up wanting it. But those days are becoming fewer. But yes, I think this is just a normal, natural function of the human condition. We are hard-wired to value justice. Justice is when others handle the vengeance for us. Vengeance is when we do it ourselves. But either way, we want to see the balance restored. 

Hang in there. We're with you.


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

Goodatheart11 said:


> 1. There was never a real conversation with STBXW. It was “I’m not happy so I’m leaving” then some attempts by me to have dialogue (which went nowhere), she left about a week later on the day I confronted her on the affair and now we’re living apart with no dialogue at all for ~6 weeks. I haven’t had much chance to really say anything to her. Not that it would do anything other than force her to face what she has done to me specifically. Right now, in my head, she hasn’t had to face anything at all. She’s monkey branched her life to this new guy and hasn’t had to face the impact of her actions.


This is two very human needs interacting.

First, you want closure. You want to find out the full, true story and understand what happened, so that you can make sense of it and move on. But this woman is a lying cheater. She's never going to give you the truth. Your closure lies in accepting that she would never give it to you, and knowing that it will never make sense to you because that's not the kind of thing you would ever do.

You also want justice. You want there to be consequences to her bad behaviour. You want the guilty punished. But infidelity doesn't work like crime. There's not going to be any real consequences to her. But her punishment is that wherever she goes, whoever she ends up with, she's still going to be herself.



Goodatheart11 said:


> 2. In that same way, the complete disconnect is unsettling. It doesn’t seem human to spend every day with someone for almost 10 years and then cut off all emotion and communication with no remorse. Is this just how she avoids the guilt? Does she truly not give a ****? Are there any WW that can speak to this?


Not a WW, but see above. You will never be able to understand her motivation because that's not what motivates you. But from what I have come to understand, she has very likely been emotionally detaching from you for some time, but just didn't actually leave until she had everything she once needed from you arranged elsewhere. So to her, it wasn't abrupt. She probably doesn't feel guilty, if anything she feels relieved now that you are out of her way. There might be momentary twinges perhaps, but she'll distract herself from them and convince herself everything turned out for the best.

Right now, you are in the worst part of things. You can't do anything to change the past, and you can't do anything to change her. All you can do is focus on your next immediate steps, and keep moving forward. It's Hell, but you will make it out the other side. Keep track of what needs doing for YOUR life, and focus your energy on that.


----------



## marko polo

Goodatheart11 said:


> Thank you for posting this. The thing that has been the most helpful has been getting the insights and experiences of people who are farther along in their process of recovery and moving on than I currently am. In a way it gives me hope that I don’t give to myself.
> 
> Started IC last week. It was mostly a download of what brought me there but there was discussion at the end that made me want to continue so I will be going back.
> 
> These are the things that hold me back from moving forward (not completely but I view it as running with a resistance band attached to a weight):
> 
> 1. There was never a real conversation with STBXW. It was “I’m not happy so I’m leaving” then some attempts by me to have dialogue (which went nowhere), she left about a week later on the day I confronted her on the affair and now we’re living apart with no dialogue at all for ~6 weeks. I haven’t had much chance to really say anything to her. Not that it would do anything other than force her to face what she has done to me specifically. Right now, in my head, she hasn’t had to face anything at all. She’s monkey branched her life to this new guy and hasn’t had to face the impact of her actions.
> 
> 2. In that same way, the complete disconnect is unsettling. It doesn’t seem human to spend every day with someone for almost 10 years and then cut off all emotion and communication with no remorse. Is this just how she avoids the guilt? Does she truly not give a ****? Are there any WW that can speak to this?


From what you have shared I would describe your wife as a covert narcissist. covert narcissism what is narcissism

_There was never a real conversation with STBXW. It was “I’m not happy so I’m leaving” then some attempts by me to have dialogue (which went nowhere), she left about a week later on the day I confronted her on the affair and now ._

To such an individual people are objects and possessions to be easily swapped out or set aside.

_In that same way, the complete disconnect is unsettling. It doesn’t seem human to spend every day with someone for almost 10 years and then cut off all emotion and communication with no remorse. Is this just how she avoids the guilt? Does she truly not give a ****?_

In the same way you would replace an appliance a narcissist replaces people. There is no conversation. The only needs that matter are their own. Guilt is something she will leave you to feel. Narcissists are emotionally limited. narcissists feel emotions

_Right now, in my head, she hasn’t had to face anything at all. She’s monkey branched her life to this new guy and hasn’t had to face the impact of her actions. _

Accepting responsibility for ones actions is as alien to the narcissist as is the truth. The truth is very flexible in the hands of such an individual and subject to instant change as required by whatever circumstances are present. They flit from one fantasy to the next and leave nothing but wreckage behind, while they are able to. Everybody gets old.

_we’re living apart with no dialogue at all for ~6 weeks_

This is a blessing and likely to be short lived. Narcissists do not like to lose their possessions (you). Don't assume this is the last you have heard of her. Don't assume she will make the divorce easy. Thank God every day you did not have children together as they would be used against you. If she is unaware of the location of your new residence keep it that way. The last thing you will need is her darkening your doorstep. Consider changing your cell number. Use only email and your lawyer to communicate with her. Do not meet with her in person unless it happens to be in your lawyers office with your lawyer present.

She has for the moment discarded you. Her games have yet to begin. Push and Pull At some point she will recognize that you are moving on and she will attempt to prevent you from doing so. If you would like to escape unscathed the best way to play is not to play at all. Hence the precautions already mentioned. You have not been idle and have been moving forward. Continue to do so. Do not look back.

I would encourage you to visit the links I have enclosed and to research on your own narcissism and covert narcissism and see for yourself how closely your wife matches what is documented. I think you will find she is a close match. Press hard and fast for divorce. You cannot change her much less help her but you can break yourself in such a futile effort. Block all avenues of communication and ignore any messages that get through. You have nothing to gain by speaking to her directly ever again. The woman you loved was a persona crafted to lure you into a commitment. The woman you have been dealing with these past few weeks is the real her and always has been. As for your replacement, he will be used and discarded in turn as will his replacement and the one after that, etc. Narcissists are always chasing a shiny new toy.

On the matter of closure. You did nothing wrong. You were targeted by her. You have given her your best and in return you have been betrayed. You must find closure on this matter within yourself. *She will never give it to you. *To do so would mean for her to acknowledge all the harm she has caused, that she is at fault, that she is not perfect or blameless. *She will never do this.* *Not even on her deathbed.* She will dangle the possibility of closure in front of you for the pleasure of denying it to you and using it to prevent you from moving on.


----------



## J_Money_Money

Hopeful Cynic said:


> There's not going to be any real consequences to her.


Ehhh, this may or may not be true. Typically, relationships born of affairs don’t last for a variety of reasons. That whole thing crashing down would definitely be considered a consequence..and when it crashes it will likely be in spectacular fashion, so that much more consequential. Because it’s built on a literal fantasy, the expectations are extremely high as to be unsustainable in the long run. Greener pastures are typically not a real thing and she is likely to find that the new pasture is less green than the one she just left. Granted, this may not be how it pans out, but it’s more likely to go this way. So in the way of IMMEDIATE consequence, you may be right. Unless of course, OP outs her to everyone she knows (I wish I would have done this personally). Also, I’ve heard that affairs often fall apart as soon as the betrayed takes themself out of the picture and purposefully makes themselves “not an option” for the cheater. I can’t verify whether or not this is true, but it seems logical to me. The cheater is likely a person who wants to have options to pick from whenever they choose. They like knowing that the betrayed would come back to them if they so choosed. When the betrayed eliminates himself as such an option, it kinda f***s up the program of the cheater. Basically, the quicker the betrayed moves on, or at least believably appears to move on in the sight of the cheater, the more the cheater is offended/upset. I witnessed this crazy $h!t firsthand not that long ago when my ex wife - who cheated on and divorced me - had a childish emotional reaction to me getting a new (and hotter) woman LOL.



Hopeful Cynic said:


> But her punishment is that wherever she goes, whoever she ends up with, she's still going to be herself.


This is true. I’m not one to say all cheaters are narcissists (though it is a narcissistic behavior), so once the fantasy ****show dies down, she may very well have a reality check and feel guilt and loss and all the rest. Again, that’s if she’s not a full blown narcissist, which I don’t know. But either way, she’s likely to keep repeating the same patterns and never be happy, which in of itself is a consequence. Going from guy to guy, marriage to marriage, for the rest of one’s life will only leave the person with emptiness.


----------



## J_Money_Money

marko polo said:


> From what you have shared I would describe your wife as a covert narcissist. covert narcissism what is narcissism
> 
> _There was never a real conversation with STBXW. It was “I’m not happy so I’m leaving” then some attempts by me to have dialogue (which went nowhere), she left about a week later on the day I confronted her on the affair and now ._
> 
> To such an individual people are objects and possessions to be easily swapped out or set aside.
> 
> _In that same way, the complete disconnect is unsettling. It doesn’t seem human to spend every day with someone for almost 10 years and then cut off all emotion and communication with no remorse. Is this just how she avoids the guilt? Does she truly not give a ****?_
> 
> In the same way you would replace an appliance a narcissist replaces people. There is no conversation. The only needs that matter are their own. Guilt is something she will leave you to feel. Narcissists are emotionally limited. narcissists feel emotions
> 
> _Right now, in my head, she hasn’t had to face anything at all. She’s monkey branched her life to this new guy and hasn’t had to face the impact of her actions. _
> 
> Accepting responsibility for ones actions is as alien to the narcissist as is the truth. The truth is very flexible in the hands of such an individual and subject to instant change as required by whatever circumstances are present. They flit from one fantasy to the next and leave nothing but wreckage behind, while they are able to. Everybody gets old.
> 
> _we’re living apart with no dialogue at all for ~6 weeks_
> 
> This is a blessing and likely to be short lived. Narcissists do not like to lose their possessions (you). Don't assume this is the last you have heard of her. Don't assume she will make the divorce easy. Thank God every day you did not have children together as they would be used against you. If she is unaware of the location of your new residence keep it that way. The last thing you will need is her darkening your doorstep. Consider changing your cell number. Use only email and your lawyer to communicate with her. Do not meet with her in person unless it happens to be in your lawyers office with your lawyer present.
> 
> She has for the moment discarded you. Her games have yet to begin. Push and Pull At some point she will recognize that you are moving on and she will attempt to prevent you from doing so. If you would like to escape unscathed the best way to play is not to play at all. Hence the precautions already mentioned. You have not been idle and have been moving forward. Continue to do so. Do not look back.
> 
> I would encourage you to visit the links I have enclosed and to research on your own narcissism and covert narcissism and see for yourself how closely your wife matches what is documented. I think you will find she is a close match. Press hard and fast for divorce. You cannot change her much less help her but you can break yourself in such a futile effort. Block all avenues of communication and ignore any messages that get through. You have nothing to gain by speaking to her directly ever again. The woman you loved was a persona crafted to lure you into a commitment. The woman you have been dealing with these past few weeks is the real her and always has been. As for your replacement, he will be used and discarded in turn as will his replacement and the one after that, etc. Narcissists are always chasing a shiny new toy.
> 
> On the matter of closure. You did nothing wrong. You were targeted by her. You have given her your best and in return you have been betrayed. You must find closure on this matter within yourself. *She will never give it to you. *To do so would mean for her to acknowledge all the harm she has caused, that she is at fault, that she is not perfect or blameless. *She will never do this.* *Not even on her deathbed.* She will dangle the possibility of closure in front of you for the pleasure of denying it to you and using it to prevent you from moving on.


She may be a narcissist, she may not be. I think we (the betrayed) tend to brand every cheater as some form of narcissist, and I don’t think that’s necessarily correct or true.

Cheating IS a narcissistic behavior, don’t get me wrong. But narcissism is a spectrum and all humans have components of narcissism to at least some extent. To be labeled a straight up clinical narcissist requires professional diagnosis.

I still wonder whether or not my own ex wife was a covert narcissist. She certainly displayed the characteristics when she was in cheater mode, but never before. Yeah yeah, I know..maybe she was just good manipulation and hiding it. I don’t know, perhaps.

But then perhaps some people are just weak and cowardly. My ex was the type who would avoid conflict at ALL costs.. and I do mean ALL costs.. but because she would have this unhealthy way of dealing with issues, it meant that she just bottled up feelings and anger and all the rest. And when that would all come out, it was crazy.

And of course, cheating in of itself is really just an unhealthy coping mechanism. Which again, puts the onus back on the cheater as someone with emotional/mental issues.

I know that if we just brand cheaters as narcissists it helps to make sense of what they do and thus helps us make sense of the situations..and perhaps OP’s STBXW is a narcissist... I’m not saying she isn’t.

I’m saying I don’t know and neither do you..and I would tell OP not to go down the rabbit trail of trying to figure out what only a clinical psychologist could determine anyhow.

I will say that the push/pull thing is real. Again, another thing I witnessed firsthand and it was disgusting...perhaps even more disgusting than the infidelity itself.

DO NOT allow yourself to be pulled into that crap, OP.

if you haven’t already determined this yourself, just know that there is only ONE acceptable response from a cheater..and that is unrestrained apology, remorse, repentance, and 100% honesty of their own volition..anything short of that is worthless horse$h!t. And even if these things are offered, it doesn’t mean you could or should take them back. That’s a personal decision to be made by you and you alone, but only within those very specific and non-negotiable parameters.

I wouldn’t hold my breath for that, however. Sounds a lot like my situation and sounds like an exit affair. This doesn’t mean that sometime down the road either one of our exes may wake up and think “oh $h!t, I really messed up and want my husband back”, but such a realization is 100% on them to come to. In any case, I certainly wouldn’t be planning my future based on that possibility at all. For me personally, I could never reconcile with a cheater no matter what efforts she made to fix things. Some people just aren’t cut out for it in even the best of scenarios, I know I’m certainly not.

I would advise to stick to the 180 and avoid all contact. Anything she has to say, she can say to your attorney.


----------



## Goodatheart11

Revisiting this for one last bit of advice:

The house is sold and this Tuesday we will see each other to file the simplified dissolution of the marriage. This will be the first time we’ve been face to face in more than two months and very likely the last time we will ever see each other. I’m wondering if there is any advice on what to say, if anything.

Really I would just want to be direct and tell her that despite her projections onto me and trying to justify what she has done with false narratives, that the real reason we are divorcing is because of _her_ actions, her affair, her deceit. The reason I want to say it is because I think _not_ saying it is somehow making it ok to do what she did. Not force-feeding her the truth would somehow be giving it all a pass.

There is more I’d like to express, but in my mind going any further potentially just gives her some level of satisfaction (the hurt she has caused) or serve to justify everything she has done (She’s a true piece of garbage as a human being), so I would not go down those paths.

Should I say anything at all to her on Tuesday or just go in, file and go on our own ways? Thoughts?


----------



## Marc878

Closure comes from within.

She doesn’t care and anything you say will be like water off a ducks back to her. Other than maybe her getting the satisfaction that she meant so much to you and you’re hurting. Thats what this would tell her.

What these types hate worse than anything is getting ignored. I would not give her any validation that she meant anything to me at all. NO CONTACT 

Id go in get it done without acknowledging her at all and leave. The one thing I hate seeing is letting them hug you after. Happens all the time. Why the hell would you want her giving you a hug?


----------



## Tested_by_stress

Goodatheart11 said:


> Revisiting this for one last bit of advice:
> 
> The house is sold and this Tuesday we will see each other to file the simplified dissolution of the marriage. This will be the first time we’ve been face to face in more than two months and very likely the last time we will ever see each other. I’m wondering if there is any advice on what to say, if anything.
> 
> Really I would just want to be direct and tell her that despite her projections onto me and trying to justify what she has done with false narratives, that the real reason we are divorcing is because of _her_ actions, her affair, her deceit. The reason I want to say it is because I think _not_ saying it is somehow making it ok to do what she did. Not force-feeding her the truth would somehow be giving it all a pass.
> 
> There is more I’d like to express, but in my mind going any further potentially just gives her some level of satisfaction (the hurt she has caused) or serve to justify everything she has done (She’s a true piece of garbage as a human being), so I would not go down those paths.
> 
> Should I say anything at all to her on Tuesday or just go in, file and go on our own ways? Thoughts?


Ideas on what to say? "Drop Dead" sounds like a good parting statement.


----------



## Evinrude58

marko polo said:


> From what you have shared I would describe your wife as a covert narcissist. covert narcissism what is narcissism
> 
> _There was never a real conversation with STBXW. It was “I’m not happy so I’m leaving” then some attempts by me to have dialogue (which went nowhere), she left about a week later on the day I confronted her on the affair and now ._
> 
> To such an individual people are objects and possessions to be easily swapped out or set aside.
> 
> _In that same way, the complete disconnect is unsettling. It doesn’t seem human to spend every day with someone for almost 10 years and then cut off all emotion and communication with no remorse. Is this just how she avoids the guilt? Does she truly not give a ****?_
> 
> In the same way you would replace an appliance a narcissist replaces people. There is no conversation. The only needs that matter are their own. Guilt is something she will leave you to feel. Narcissists are emotionally limited. narcissists feel emotions
> 
> _Right now, in my head, she hasn’t had to face anything at all. She’s monkey branched her life to this new guy and hasn’t had to face the impact of her actions. _
> 
> Accepting responsibility for ones actions is as alien to the narcissist as is the truth. The truth is very flexible in the hands of such an individual and subject to instant change as required by whatever circumstances are present. They flit from one fantasy to the next and leave nothing but wreckage behind, while they are able to. Everybody gets old.
> 
> _we’re living apart with no dialogue at all for ~6 weeks_
> 
> This is a blessing and likely to be short lived. Narcissists do not like to lose their possessions (you). Don't assume this is the last you have heard of her. Don't assume she will make the divorce easy. Thank God every day you did not have children together as they would be used against you. If she is unaware of the location of your new residence keep it that way. The last thing you will need is her darkening your doorstep. Consider changing your cell number. Use only email and your lawyer to communicate with her. Do not meet with her in person unless it happens to be in your lawyers office with your lawyer present.
> 
> She has for the moment discarded you. Her games have yet to begin. Push and Pull At some point she will recognize that you are moving on and she will attempt to prevent you from doing so. If you would like to escape unscathed the best way to play is not to play at all. Hence the precautions already mentioned. You have not been idle and have been moving forward. Continue to do so. Do not look back.
> 
> I would encourage you to visit the links I have enclosed and to research on your own narcissism and covert narcissism and see for yourself how closely your wife matches what is documented. I think you will find she is a close match. Press hard and fast for divorce. You cannot change her much less help her but you can break yourself in such a futile effort. Block all avenues of communication and ignore any messages that get through. You have nothing to gain by speaking to her directly ever again. The woman you loved was a persona crafted to lure you into a commitment. The woman you have been dealing with these past few weeks is the real her and always has been. As for your replacement, he will be used and discarded in turn as will his replacement and the one after that, etc. Narcissists are always chasing a shiny new toy.
> 
> On the matter of closure. You did nothing wrong. You were targeted by her. You have given her your best and in return you have been betrayed. You must find closure on this matter within yourself. *She will never give it to you. *To do so would mean for her to acknowledge all the harm she has caused, that she is at fault, that she is not perfect or blameless. *She will never do this.* *Not even on her deathbed.* She will dangle the possibility of closure in front of you for the pleasure of denying it to you and using it to prevent you from moving on.


Hoping you will post more often. You have a gift for explaining the viewpoint of a narcissist. It helps me with understanding my ex narc.


----------



## Marc878

^^^^^^ excellent info about who she is by Marco Polo. You’d be wise to read it again.

Don’t be surprised if she tries to approach you about ‘let’s be friends’. Id set it up where she doesn’t get any chance to speak. There is nothing to say.


----------



## Evinrude58

Be friends, work it out, etc etc. Definitely just wants to make sure you’re still on the hook to strike her ego, like Marko told you.

the best thing you can do to sour her apples? Find a good woman who you are happy with, and post a picture or two on Facebook of you with her. It will really get to her to see you happy. After all, how could you be happy without HER???????


----------



## Marc878

You seem to get caught up in the I loved her so much she must love me too. Nope, her actions tell you that.


----------



## rescueengine

I wouldn't say anything....gray rock her. If she says she wants to be friends, tell her "I have enough friends" and walk away. Spend the least amount of time and energy on her.


----------



## Marc878

Evinrude58 said:


> Be friends, work it out, etc etc. Definitely just wants to make sure you’re still on the hook to strike her ego, like Marko told you.
> 
> the best thing you can do to sour her apples? Find a good woman who you are happy with, and post a picture or two on Facebook of you with her. It will really get to her to see you happy. After all, how could you be happy without HER???????


Yep, these types thrive thinking you are so hurt and will never get over her. She’s is irreplaceable, etc. 
Why the hell waste your time on this?

A buddy of mines wife pulled this ****. She ran into on of his friends and was telling him how hurt he was. (She started screwing her boss and left him.)

When he started dating and ended up getting engaged to an anesthesiologist she freaked out. Calling, wanting to be friends, get together, etc. Poor muffin couldn’t understand how he had replaced her so quickly. He cut off all contact except for text, emails about the kids. Hasn’t spoken to her directly in a couple years. He learned to ignore for his own benefit. No contact works if you fully apply it.


----------



## Marc878

rescueengine said:


> I wouldn't say anything....gray rock her. If she says she wants to be friends, tell her "I have enough friends" and walk away. Spend the least amount of time and energy on her.


Yep, definition of friend - loyal, honest and trustworthy.


----------



## Goodatheart11

All great stuff. Thank you! In and out and be done with it.


----------



## Marc878

Goodatheart11 said:


> All great stuff. Thank you! In and out and be done with it.


For gods sake don’t let her hug you!!!!!! 💩🖕


----------



## Luckylucky

Don’t say anything at all! Let her do the talking if she does talk, and smile and nod and stare. If she asks questions, simple and short yes or no and pause. But mostly don’t even hang around and engage and just try to leave quickly.


----------



## Goodatheart11

Marc878 said:


> For gods sake don’t let her hug you!!!!!! 💩🖕


Haha no problem there!


----------



## Kaliber

Marc878 said:


> For gods sake don’t let her hug you!!!!!! 💩🖕


I think @Goodatheart11 got this, but something I just don't understand, I se so many BH do the hugging part, even going for a coffee after it, it's just so weak, I don't know why they do it, what were they thinking?!
No wonder why the WWs don't respect them and sees them as week and wimps!


----------



## Marc878

Kaliber said:


> I think @Goodatheart11 got this, but something I just don't understand, I se so many BH do the hugging part, even going for a coffee after it, it's just so weak, I don't know why they do it, what were they thinking?!
> No wonder why the WWs don't respect them and sees them as week and wimps!


Doormats. Only a chump would hug his cheater wife after she divorced him. Sad


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## Hopeful Cynic

My ex asked for a kiss, "for old times' sake." They just don't understand at all.


----------



## johndoe12299

J_Money_Money said:


> You're very welcome. I'm glad you found a place where you can talk about how you feel and ask questions and such, it is helpful. For some reason, it took me several months to find subreddits for infidelity survivors and this site. Wish I had found such things much sooner. But anyway, yes I feel you. I can't believe it's been 9 months since my own separation and 6 since the divorce was final. It doesn't seem that long ago that I wasn't even sure I'd be able to live. Like, I legit wanted to blow my head off for several months. By the grace of God I didn't. I was tortured in that my ex tried to make me believe there was a chance to "save the marriage" but she never had any intent on actually giving me that chance. Without resources like this place and the wonderful people on Reddit, I had no way to know what I was really dealing with. And so I was left to being gaslighted and taking blame for all sorts of $h!t, carrying the entire burden of the marriage collapsing on my shoulders. While I certainly did share responsibility for our relationship issues, the truth is that is wasn't all on me. It took some time to realize that and I wish I had realized it earlier. The bottom line is that there is NEVER a valid excuse for cheating. NEVER. Cheating is an immature and destructive way of coping with issues that the OTHER PERSON has. It's not even about you. That can be a hard thing to understand or accept, but it's true. While everyone walking the planet has issues and baggage, some people choose to deal with those issues in more healthy ways than others. My ex wife had issues predating our relationship, that much I already knew. I never dug into exactly what they were or how much she was impacted by them. I was her second marriage, and had I been a bit smarter I would have dug more into what happened her first time around. I eventually did dig into it after the separation by contacting her first ex husband. I learned that many of my complaints about her (unrelated to cheating) were valid. She basically has a pattern of behavior that she is unwilling to address and her life will continue in the present cycle unless and until she addresses it. Over all point being that you may or may not have had a wonderful relationship with her and either way it doesn't matter because the issues she has which drive/tempt her towards this type of behavior are HER issues and have nothing to do with you. So try to remember that.
> 
> 
> 
> Good. I highly suggest staying on this track. I know for guys it can be tough for us to "go to a counselor" because (to me at least) it seems like a bunch of horse$h!t. And sometimes it is.. but it WILL help you sort out some things that you either won't sort out otherwise or will take a looooong time to sort out otherwise...
> 
> Not saying this is true in your case, but here's an example of how it helped me.. I was left to believe that I had an "unhealthy attachment style." Which if true, would have been a problem moving forward with or without my now ex. Say I get into a new relationship and I start repeating unhealthy patterns... not good. So my therapist tested me for my attachment style. It turned out that I have a healthy attachment style, which is good to know.. but even with this being the case, I knew that I had emotionally withdrawn from my ex-wife when we were still married (this was a big part of our relationship issues), so the next thing to figure out was why I had done this? It turned out that I had emotionally withdrawn from her largely because of things SHE had done. It was a defense mechanism that kicked into gear to protect myself from, again, her $h!tty patterns of behavior. Of course, she never knew or saw that because she's a moron with absolutely zero capability for self-awareness or introspection.. but nonetheless, it helped ME to make sense of things that happened in the past. THAT ALONE was a huge thing for me for two reasons. One, it helped me to know that my emotional withdrawal from her wasn't all my fault (if my fault at all). Two, it helped me to realize there is a set of behaviors that I will never again tolerate in a mate. Which made me more picky my next time around. It took me three therapists and probably 4 months to get this information out of myself, but it happened because I was persistent. My first therapist became worthless at some point. Same with the second. The third had new and other things to offer. So go as many times and to as many people as you need to process things, make sense of things, and feel better.
> 
> 
> 
> This is tough, I know. We all know. In my case, she was just trying to start fights and get me to act out so that she could say "aha" and then cite whatever as her reason for leaving.. I also didn't know of the affair until after separation.. So before that, she was literally making things up that weren't even true and rewriting the history of the marriage. At the time I thought it was insane. It wasn't until later that I learned this is common behavior for cheaters. Yes, dialog with them is pointless when there's an affair in full swing. 100% pointless. And if you think you're going to "get answers", well.. you might and might not.. but probably not. That was one of the hardest things to swallow for me. Like, ok.. do whatever you're going to do, but I at least deserve the truth, right? Keep in mind, you're dealing with someone who has been lying to both you and themselves for some decent amount of time...so to expect to suddenly get truth is a waste of time. Hard to swallow, I know. I still struggle with it some days.. and yes, the idea that they haven't had to "face anything".. just unnerving.. This is one reason why people often suggest that you OUT THEM to everyone. It FORCES them to at least have to live their life as what they've chosen to be: a cheater... as opposed to being a cheater but being allowed to continue lying and tricking everyone else.. In any case, what I've learned is that much of their behavior is a way to offset guilt and shame.. so like, my ex was blaming me for everything short of the Iraq war and 9/11...it was disgusting and made no sense at all until I discovered that this was her way of fighting against her own guilt. But you know what? That guilt will eat them alive..perhaps slowly, yes.. but nonetheless it will..
> 
> And don't believe for one second that their life with be peachy keen. There may be delayed consequences, but that hammer WILL fall at some point. Because see, again, none of these cheaters have actually DEALT with any of their issues. They will continue being unhappy and whatever relationship she's in now or later will crash and burn in spectacular fashion for that reason alone, if not for others. Others include the fact that she's a known cheater... the OM knows this.. and if it's anything like my scenario, both my ex and the OM are known cheaters.. two known cheaters are going to trust one another? It's a ridiculous proposition. Fantasy land horse$h!t, right? Yep. Because the WHOLE THING is a fantasy built on a house of cards. TRUST is the foundation of any relationship, romantic or otherwise. Once that's gone, there is NOTHING. And guess what? Their relationship BEGAN on lies! There is no trust there even now. There might be endorphins and $h!t masquerading as trust, sure.. but that is unsustainable. NOT EVEN SEX can replace trust. NOTHING CAN. And honeymoon phases end. Sooner or later, something will happen that will expose to one (or both) of them that "hey, I can't trust this person!" And it all goes from there. Only a matter of time, my friend. Unfortunately for us, we may not get a front row seat to the carnage. So you just have to know it's going to happen if it hasn't yet. If you're lucky, you will get to see or hear of it happening when it does. But even if not, just trust that it will. Because IT WILL.
> 
> In my case, I know enough to know that she was bothered by my 180, even though that 180 didn't happen until after the divorce.. you see, she thought I'd still pursue her after a divorce.. I probably would have had I not known about the affair as I was blaming myself for everything before I knew..when that didn't pan out and I completely flipped directions and attitude on her, lol....suddenly she's finding "reasons" to email me.. trying to offer me things.. tried to get my new address at some point.. and then she had a reaction on social media when I got a girlfriend...I posted a pic of us haha....that reaction showed that she wasn't exactly indifferent to me moving on with a new woman.. it probably didn't hurt that my girlfriend is hotter than my ex, too. So you see, things have a way of panning out, my friend.. but that only happens if you keep fighting through all this yucky crap you're currently dealing with. Find some motivation (it sounds like you have done this) and stay with it..For me, the motivation was that this b*tch was not going to be allowed to ruin my life. I was determined to find a hotter and better woman for myself.. both for me and to SHOVE IT IN HER F***ING FACE. And I did. And when her relationship crumbles (if it hasn't already, I don't know), I'm still with a better and hotter woman who I intend to marry and make babies with.
> 
> At the end of the day, YOU AND I BOTH DODGED A BULLET. Yes it hurts. Yes it sucks. But you still dodged a bullet. Because think of it.. otherwise, what do you really have? You would have been married to a person who not only doesn't have the compunction not to cheat, but you might have never even known it! That's terrible, brother. My biggest regret is that I wasted 8 years of my life with that c*nt. That's hard to swallow. But it's getting easier because what was the alternative? Waste another 8 years? 10? Then it crashes when I'm 50? Better now than later. And also, if all this awful $h!t hadn't happened, I wouldn't be with my current woman. So there's that.
> 
> This may not mean much to you now because of where you are in the timeline, but just know there will be a point soon when you will be dating again and then you have a whole world of possibilities in front of you that you would have never had being married to that cheating wench.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep it's CRAZY, isn't it? It's also normal behavior for cheaters...I was dumbfounded when I discovered this, but it's true. Same thing happened with me, though there was still some communication.. but that communication was worthless.. it was just her being a total c*nt for no discernable reason. Then the communication eventually got less and less.. and it hit a wall when I learned of the affair and called her out on it.. again, they can't face the truth of what they've done, so they choose to live in a fantasy world so to kick the can of guilt down the road. But eventually, reality WILL hit. I've already covered this, so you already know.
> 
> HANG IN THERE. WE ARE HERE FOR YOU, MAN. We might not all agree on whatever advice we give you, but everyone here has your best interests at heart. We're all pulling for you. And you know what? I can tell just from what you've written, what you're doing, that you are strong. You WILL make it through this garbage. Cry when you need to cry. Vent when you need to vent. Nothing wrong with it. It will help you. Allow yourself to feel and to grieve. It's all normal, though it does suck. Whatever you do though, don't give up on yourself and keep on the track you're on with the physical activity and IC.


This post should be stickied!


----------



## johndoe12299

Goodatheart11 said:


> Revisiting this for one last bit of advice:
> 
> The house is sold and this Tuesday we will see each other to file the simplified dissolution of the marriage. This will be the first time we’ve been face to face in more than two months and very likely the last time we will ever see each other. I’m wondering if there is any advice on what to say, if anything.
> 
> Really I would just want to be direct and tell her that despite her projections onto me and trying to justify what she has done with false narratives, that the real reason we are divorcing is because of _her_ actions, her affair, her deceit. The reason I want to say it is because I think _not_ saying it is somehow making it ok to do what she did. Not force-feeding her the truth would somehow be giving it all a pass.
> 
> There is more I’d like to express, but in my mind going any further potentially just gives her some level of satisfaction (the hurt she has caused) or serve to justify everything she has done (She’s a true piece of garbage as a human being), so I would not go down those paths.
> 
> Should I say anything at all to her on Tuesday or just go in, file and go on our own ways? Thoughts?


Definitely don't say anything. If you give her a spiel she will get satisfaction in that she is still taking up space in your head.


----------



## ElwoodPDowd

Goodatheart11 said:


> What would you do in this situation?


I would carry a recording device on me at all times and tell her every conversation was being recorded (including phone calls, speaker phone every time while recording).
Maybe put some obvious cameras up in the 'public' rooms and your bedroom.
Sell all shares/investments, empty bank accounts, transfer all portable assets and cash to a lockbox ASAP (don't tell her this).
Stop making any mortgage/loan payments, any and all money you spend on 'joint' items must be considered a total loss on your part.
Sell your car if it's owned outright and worth a bit, replace it with a cheap junker (your car will be considered a joint asset).

Why did she get the master bedroom? She's the one being naughty?
Bolt on the inside of your bedroom door, and use it.
Lock all personal documents/any valuables away somewhere safe.
(I didn't do this, and my wife found and burned my entire past, and stole my dead mom's jewellery)

You don't want to be excluded from your house after a DV report.


----------



## manowar

Goodatheart11 said:


> “I’m not happy so I’m leaving” then some *attempts by me to have dialogue (which went nowhere)*,



A failure to communicate. What's going on here is you are employing male reasoning (logic) against female emotional reasoning. This results in a big disconnect from your pov. It's bewildering. You aren't fluent in female emotional reasoning. She can switch over to male reasoning and tell it straight the way us guys speak to one another, since she uses this at work and grad school, but when dealing with relationships women tend to fallback on emotional reasoning because it's more effective for them.

"Im not happy so Im leaving" in her mind is a valid reason which signifies the multitude of emotions contained in the statement. Part of it is that she doesn't want to drag up the past (with the sort of explanation you deserve) which will only present those negative emotions for her again. It also provides an easier out than being direct because if the conversation is based solely on male logical reasoning she is on at best equal but probably inferior footing to support her claims. Yeah its seemingly nuts but it's something women have used through evolution to support their survival. Men abandoned this emotional reasoning to better hunt game, make tools, etc....


----------



## Marc878

Hopeful Cynic said:


> My ex asked for a kiss, "for old times' sake." They just don't understand at all.


Sure hon. You can kiss my ass 🖕


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

Marc878 said:


> Sure hon. You can kiss my ass 🖕


Hahaha, I wish I'd thought of that!


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

manowar said:


> "Im not happy so Im leaving" in her mind is a valid reason which signifies the multitude of emotions contained in the statement. Part of it is that she doesn't want to drag up the past (with the sort of explanation you deserve) which will only present those negative emotions for her again. It also provides an easier out than being direct because if the conversation is based solely on male logical reasoning she is on at best equal but probably inferior footing to support her claims. Yeah its seemingly nuts but it's something women have used through evolution to support their survival. Men abandoned this emotional reasoning to better hunt game, make tools, etc....


That statement "I'm not happy so I'm leaving" is so problematic.

She never told you she was unhappy, right? That's because she wasn't unhappy. She may have been bored, or stressed by married life though. Then, she had an affair and got all those dopamine hits, so of course the affair seems amazing and incomparable. Anything else would pale in comparison because that's the nature of affairs. It's a close cousin of "I love you but I'm not in love with you." where they don't actually feel that way until new relationship energy or limerence come along. Nothing in life compares to the heady thrill of new hormone surges. So they rewrite history to justify that they had fallen out of love or were unhappy, because their logic is following their emotions. I feel amazing with AP, and nothing like this with BH, so I must not be in love or happy there anymore.

Or maybe she WAS unhappy. So why didn't she do anything about it? Tell you? Make some changes, find a hobby, seek fulfilment in a non-adulterous way? People who cheat don't take blame for it. She felt it was your responsibility to make her happy, when it was no one's responsibility but hers.


----------



## Goodatheart11

Hopeful Cynic said:


> That statement "I'm not happy so I'm leaving" is so problematic.
> 
> She never told you she was unhappy, right? That's because she wasn't unhappy. She may have been bored, or stressed by married life though. Then, she had an affair and got all those dopamine hits, so of course the affair seems amazing and incomparable. Anything else would pale in comparison because that's the nature of affairs. It's a close cousin of "I love you but I'm not in love with you." where they don't actually feel that way until new relationship energy or limerence come along. Nothing in life compares to the heady thrill of new hormone surges. So they rewrite history to justify that they had fallen out of love or were unhappy, because their logic is following their emotions. I feel amazing with AP, and nothing like this with BH, so I must not be in love or happy there anymore.
> 
> Or maybe she WAS unhappy. So why didn't she do anything about it? Tell you? Make some changes, find a hobby, seek fulfilment in a non-adulterous way? People who cheat don't take blame for it. She felt it was your responsibility to make her happy, when it was no one's responsibility but hers.


Lots of good truth here. Certainly fits my observations of her behavior.


----------



## Marc878

Look on the bright side lose a cheater gain a life.🥳


----------



## Beach123

And any time a spouse says ILYBNILWY… it’s always because they are cheating.
Every.single.time


----------



## Goodatheart11

Well everything was filed today. I’m happy to say there was no hug and no conversation other than the business at hand. That chapter is officially closed. Hopefully better things coming down the road.


----------



## Dictum Veritas

Goodatheart11 said:


> Well everything was filed today. I’m happy to say there was no hug and no conversation other than the business at hand. That chapter is officially closed. Hopefully better things coming down the road.


This is a hard road, but navigate the course of the just and good things are sure to be ahead. One step at a time and don't beat yourself up for minor stumbles.


----------



## Evinrude58

You will begin to feel noticeably better every day after this. Bravo


----------



## Kaliber

Goodatheart11 said:


> Well everything was filed today. I’m happy to say there was no hug and no conversation other than the business at hand. That chapter is officially closed. Hopefully better things coming down the road.


@Goodatheart11 now re-read this reply: Wife wants a divorce and none of it adds up (should take you right to the reply post)


----------



## Talker67

wow. two months of hell, finally over.

I would bet her toxic single friends goaded her into having the affair.
and when the sex hormones and thrill of the affair die down, she is going to look into the mirror and ask "what have i done?"

she drove away a good man, and got a cheating jerk to replace you with.


----------



## Marc878

How’s it going for you? It maybe tough but you’ll be fine long term. It’ll be faster with no contact.


----------



## Imnobodynew

Gh,

How are you? How'd your meeting go? In glad the house sold. Believe it or not my friends in similar situations hated the ties after the divorce was done. 


You were on my heart. Praying for you.


----------



## Goodatheart11

Talker67 said:


> wow. two months of hell, finally over.
> 
> I would bet her toxic single friends goaded her into having the affair.
> and when the sex hormones and thrill of the affair die down, she is going to look into the mirror and ask "what have i done?"
> 
> she drove away a good man, and got a cheating jerk to replace you with.


Most likely that is what happened. Toxic friends + some kind of mid-life crisis. I do have that side that really wants to see the train wreck happen, even though i likely wont get that satisfaction.


----------



## Goodatheart11

Marc878 said:


> How’s it going for you? It maybe tough but you’ll be fine long term. It’ll be faster with no contact.


Still no contact from my end. We had to file one last item together today (basically saying we dont need to be in person for the judge to do the final decree). Other than the mandatory waiting period (which is 20 days and is now almost passed) it’s essentially a done deal. I walk away entirely whole, without alimony or giving up any of my assets. 

The kicker for me psychologically: I’ve been on a 6 day/week workout schedule for about 11 weeks and she clearly has not. It was a nice F-U to walk in, being in the best shape I’ve been in for ~20 years and she was looking very average. I’m sure she noticed haha. This time again all business, in and out. Hopefully it will be my last interaction with a true garbage human being. 

Living in a new place with the dog now. It’s honestly been a huge adjustment being back to where I was in life 10 years ago. Havent been in a mindset yet to start getting back out there with dating. I think that will take some time. I might not ever have that capacity for trust again. I just don’t believe in it anymore.

One day at a time.


----------



## Goodatheart11

Imnobodynew said:


> Gh,
> 
> How are you? How'd your meeting go? In glad the house sold. Believe it or not my friends in similar situations hated the ties after the divorce was done.
> 
> 
> You were on my heart. Praying for you.


Thanks! Adjusting to a new way of life now. I’m glad there is no financial hangover from the divorce. I truly feel for guys that are cheated on and the have to pay _the cheater_ for years afterward. That screams of an awful system to me. 

If anyone has advice on how to start over on the market after a divorce, I could use the advice there. Im not ready for it as of today but I probably have a lot of rebuilding to do psychologically before getting into the pool again.


----------



## Marc878

Get a good haircut. Upgrade your wardrobe, clothes, cologne, shoes. Make it interesting and fun.

The good thing is you come and go as you please. If you have an interest or hobby you never had time for bingo!!!!

Getting rid of that boat anchor without getting hurt financially is priced.


----------



## Marc878

Goodatheart11 said:


> Still no contact from my end. We had to file one last item together today (basically saying we dont need to be in person for the judge to do the final decree). Other than the mandatory waiting period (which is 20 days and is now almost passed) it’s essentially a done deal. I walk away entirely whole, without alimony or giving up any of my assets.
> *Excellent!*
> 
> The kicker for me psychologically: I’ve been on a 6 day/week workout schedule for about 11 weeks and she clearly has not. It was a nice F-U to walk in, being in the best shape I’ve been in for ~20 years and she was looking very average. I’m sure she noticed haha. This time again all business, in and out. Hopefully it will be my last interaction with a true garbage human being.
> *Sweet! Others I’ll notice that too,*
> 
> Living in a new place with the dog now. It’s honestly been a huge adjustment being back to where I was in life 10 years ago. Havent been in a mindset yet to start getting back out there with dating. I think that will take some time. I might not ever have that capacity for trust again. I just don’t believe in it anymore.
> 
> One day at a time.


IMO good times await you.


----------



## Talker67

Goodatheart11 said:


> Thanks! Adjusting to a new way of life now. I’m glad there is no financial hangover from the divorce. I truly feel for guys that are cheated on and the have to pay _the cheater_ for years afterward. That screams of an awful system to me.
> 
> If anyone has advice on how to start over on the market after a divorce, I could use the advice there. Im not ready for it as of today but I probably have a lot of rebuilding to do psychologically before getting into the pool again.


my advice would be to date VERY sparingly at first.
Some guys rush to find a replacement woman, and then end up shacked up with a less than ideal candidate for the long term.
take your time, there is really no rush.

and evaluate what drew you to your ex, who was in hindsight damaged goods. is there a female type you crave, but really is not the best choice for a long term relationship? for instance, you might enjoy being flirted with a lot, but do you want to choose a person who is constantly flirting and a party girl with everyone?


----------



## Kaliber

Goodatheart11 said:


> Thanks! Adjusting to a new way of life now. I’m glad there is no financial hangover from the divorce. I truly feel for guys that are cheated on and the have to pay _the cheater_ for years afterward. That screams of an awful system to me.
> 
> If anyone has advice on how to start over on the market after a divorce, I could use the advice there. Im not ready for it as of today but I probably have a lot of rebuilding to do psychologically before getting into the pool again.


What ever you do, DO NOT GET MARRIAD!
And in some states: Do not co-habitat because it will be viewed same as marriage!
With the current system, marriage is a bad deal for men!
If you must and you want to get married for any reason (ex. kids ..etc), have a ironclad prenup in place done by very good lawyers months before the wedding!


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## AGoodFlogging

Goodatheart11 said:


> Thanks! Adjusting to a new way of life now. I’m glad there is no financial hangover from the divorce. I truly feel for guys that are cheated on and the have to pay _the cheater_ for years afterward. That screams of an awful system to me.
> 
> If anyone has advice on how to start over on the market after a divorce, I could use the advice there. Im not ready for it as of today but I probably have a lot of rebuilding to do psychologically before getting into the pool again.


Like others my advice is to take your time and don't just leap to commit to the first women that looks sort of reasonable. Remember you don't need a woman to get on with your life.


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## Talker67

AGoodFlogging said:


> Like others my advice is to take your time and don't just leap to commit to the first women that looks sort of reasonable. Remember you don't need a woman to get on with your life.


you probably need a good six months just to get that witch out of your head, and start thinking straight again!


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## marko polo

Goodatheart11 said:


> Thanks! Adjusting to a new way of life now. I’m glad there is no financial hangover from the divorce. I truly feel for guys that are cheated on and the have to pay _the cheater_ for years afterward. That screams of an awful system to me.
> 
> If anyone has advice on how to start over on the market after a divorce, I could use the advice there. Im not ready for it as of today but I probably have a lot of rebuilding to do psychologically before getting into the pool again.


Do not sacrifice what is in your best interest for another to gain their favor. Walkaway at the first sign of disinterest, disrespect or betrayal regardless of whether you are merely dating or in a relationship. Offer no second chances and entertain no _explanations_.


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## Zedd

Goodatheart11 said:


> If anyone has advice on how to start over on the market after a divorce, I could use the advice there. Im not ready for it as of today but I probably have a lot of rebuilding to do psychologically before getting into the pool again.


Just live your life. It'll find you when you're ready. After I got divorced, for financial reasons I said I'd never get married again. Swore it up and down to anyone who'd listen.

I'm married again with a pair of twins to go with the son I share with my ex-wife. Life couldn't be better.

It just takes time and returning to the genuine version of you, not the hurt or jaded version of you that's staring you back in the mirror every morning right now. It's just time.


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## Chuck71

OP...... you handled yourself very well. You were given A++ advice. Now getting over what she did....will take

time. During that time...learn about who you are / were. What did you do before you met her?

Eventually....get back out in the dating pool but...just date. Even date people you usually wouldn't.

I dated casually for around 18 months after my D and my post-D LTR. It was fun, exciting and I learned

quite a few things I usually wouldn't. You mentioned how gun shy you are on anything serious going forth.

Hell.... I wonder why.... I was where you are now. Now for MGTOW.... I don't agree with everything they push.

But time and time again you hear about a WW cheating, getting alimony, kids <50%, CS and a better share of

the assets. The BH.... gets robbed of time with children, crippled financially. Not to mention their image of

a family is destroyed. Gun shy of any type of LTR plus your financial standing had dropped tremendously.

So if you do...... try dating again..... red flags they see with you, 1-Divorced, 2-BSC XW, 3-Custody issues,

4-Not much money after XW gets her share. 

That........ is the part of MGTOW, I agree with. If it was 1996 and I read about this, it would scare the @%^$ outta me.

There are wonderful women out there but.....read opening posts from guys who say..... when we first met etc etc

You dodged a bullet with no kids. I was about your age when my D was final...... the field I saw was not enticing.

There are still quality women out there but nowhere near the % when you were 30.

Do you want kids or are you meh either way?


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## Chuck71

marko polo said:


> From what you have shared I would describe your wife as a covert narcissist. covert narcissism what is narcissism


The play remains the same, just the lead actors change.


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## Goodatheart11

Chuck71 said:


> There are still quality women out there but nowhere near the % when you were 30.
> 
> Do you want kids or are you meh either way?


I won’t go the MGTOW route but the ability to trust will be the last thing to come back for me. I have seen a _lot_ of advice to rediscover the things I enjoy and I do look forward to that piece. 

It will be interesting to revisit this post over time to see how things progress. Where my mind is now is far better than it was 2 months ago, thanks largely to this group’s advice (and some of the books mentioned here), though I would be hard to convince that there is an LTR anywhere in my future. I definitely will be working on my picker and certainly any red flags will be an immediate cut. 

I cant thank this group enough for the amazing advice, insight and positive outlooks up to this point. You all have been a life saver!


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## Zedd

Goodatheart11 said:


> I won’t go the MGTOW route but the ability to trust will be the last thing to come back for me.


One of my favorite lines in Ted Lasso.

_All people are different people._

Don't forget that. There's no need to punish someone new for the misdeeds of someone they don't even know.


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## Imnobodynew

How you progressing op? The detachment getting easier?


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## Goodatheart11

Imnobodynew said:


> How you progressing op? The detachment getting easier?


Detachment from _her_ was fairly easy once the divorce paperwork was submitted. My thoughts now are more forward looking, but honestly the thoughts aren’t great. I have no desire to get back out there at least right now mostly because I don’t think I could have done more to keep someone faithful and happy and none of it meant a thing in the end. If everything in the life we had built was not enough, how could I really be enough for the next person? I don’t see the point. We live in a time when social media drives people’s lives. I’m not into that game and therefore don’t have much chance to succeed. It is what it is.


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## BigDaddyNY

Goodatheart11 said:


> Detachment from _her_ was fairly easy once the divorce paperwork was submitted. My thoughts now are more forward looking, but honestly the thoughts aren’t great. I have no desire to get back out there at least right now mostly because I don’t think I could have done more to keep someone faithful and happy and none of it meant a thing in the end. If everything in the life we had built was not enough, how could I really be enough for the next person? I don’t see the point. We live in a time when social media drives people’s lives. I’m not into that game and therefore don’t have much chance to succeed. It is what it is.


Don't give up hope. Take your time, but there are good women out there.


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## Chuck71

You sound a lot like me.... five years ago. 110% normal to think that way.

Learn about you, who you are....now. What were your hobbies before you met XW?

Do you follow any sports? Do you know a few guys you could pal with one evening?


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## Hopeful Cynic

Goodatheart11 said:


> Detachment from _her_ was fairly easy once the divorce paperwork was submitted. My thoughts now are more forward looking, but honestly the thoughts aren’t great. I have no desire to get back out there at least right now mostly because I don’t think I could have done more to keep someone faithful and happy and none of it meant a thing in the end. If everything in the life we had built was not enough, how could I really be enough for the next person? I don’t see the point. We live in a time when social media drives people’s lives. I’m not into that game and therefore don’t have much chance to succeed. It is what it is.


It was never about you. It was all about her, and her inability to be faithful or happy. What you did or didn't do was irrelevant in the face of her poor character. You will be everything to someone capable of reciprocating it. They're just hard to find.


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