# I'm asexual. Follow up post.



## beautymadness23 (Nov 8, 2013)

Hello all. This is a follow up from my last post about not knowing how to be erotic. I have discovered I'm asexual.

I was reading an article last night and it was like a lighbulb going off. Like an epiphany. It was suddenly all so clear. It was going over the signs of asexuality. I fit 90% of them.

I have been off sexually for all my adult life. I just thought I needed a sexual awakening or to tap into that part of myself or I haven't met the right person. But I now know that is not the case. It is an actual sexual orientation that affects less than 1% of the population. I was hoping it was some disease or disorder that I could work on with therapy or with a pill, but now I know that I'm wired this way, it's in my chemistry. 

Some specific signs I connected with greatly:
U don't find people hot or sexy. Maybe aesthetically pleasing or pleasant to look at, but u don't get a physical feeling of arousal that radiates through your body.

U dont masturbate or initate sex. U may enjoy sex and even like the feeling and get pleasure from the actual act, but it tends to be for other reasons. For me, its emotional. U have a take it or leave it attitude and don't care to evolve sexually.

U have always thought u were straight by default. U never thought about what you likes enough to really consider it and I don't feel a pull either way.

Porn is amusing to u or u get bored by it.

U misunderstand cues and can't tell when someone is flirting with u or if you flirting with them. May not know what flirting is.

Etc...

So what do I do now? My husband has always know that I was different or that something was off, but he didn't know what. Now we know and its a relief, but also scary. He has needs and desires that I don't think I can actually fulfill. He says its nice to know he's not crazy and that his yearning for something more sexually all this time has an explanation. 

I feel like there's only two options: open marriage or divorce. We are newlyweds and this just shouldnt be happening! I've discovered this too late and now my life is turned upside down. We have a good relationship is every other way and want to be married and together, but what options do we have?

Please help me as I'm scared and lost. I feel like a freak of nature.

The problem is I have no real desire to do something about it, which is typical of asexuals. It does not bother me much and feels fine to me, but I know it negatively affects my marriage. I have tried to be more sexual, but I just can't bring myself to do what I know I would have to.


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

What article was this that you were reading? Is it online and if so, can you post a link to it?

I don't know what to tell you that could possibly help. I'm pretty sure my H is asexual as well so the shoe is on the other foot in my situation. I am just as confused on what to do about it as you are. I think realizing and admitting you are is a HUGE first step.


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## Always Learning (Oct 2, 2013)

I think you have more than just the two options you listed. First off, the open marriage thing is likely to fail for more than one reason. First, if your husband is a decent man who loves his wife he is looking for a sexual/emotional connection wit YOU. It is likely he would not get that in an open marriage or he would eventually fall for someone else that he meets in that open relationship. Second, do you really think you could let him sleep with someone else and it not bother you? I don't think so or you would not be here looking for help.

As far as divorce I don't think that would be necessary either. You came here for a reason and that is to try to fix your marriage. That shows you are willing to work on it. You are already aware that you MAY be asexual so you have a start. You just need to make sure that you don't forget that sexual desire may not come natural for you. If you are self conscious enough you can make the effort it will take to have a good healthy sexual marriage. You just have to work harder than most. You have to decide if your marriage is worth the huge effort you need to make to have your husband feel desired.

I may be wrong but I think you can learn to be more sexual it just won't come naturally. You will have to make a conscious effort to read and study up on seduction. Ask your husband what he finds hot, pay attention to the way he reacts to sexual scenes in movies or on the TV. Be observant and you can figure this out.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

You need to first be very calm. 

You may indeed be asexual. But you need to understand that no matter what the media or blogosphere might tell you, it's exceedingly rare to be so. 

It is far more likely you are low drive. 

I would seek out a doctor to get your hormone and general health levels checked, and then I would seek to work with a therapist who is extremely experienced in such matters. 

Reading one article doesn't mean you are asexual. 

Again, there is no shame if you are, but please proceed cautiously and carefully.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## beautymadness23 (Nov 8, 2013)

http://www.asexualityarchive.com/possible-signs-of-asexuality-part-3/

It is a 3 part series. It is extremely informative and enlightening. I suggest anyone read it that suspect that they may be!

I felt like I wrote it myself.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

My wife identifies as such as well. The same things you mention above, fit her just as well as you say it does to you.

Without getting into arguments about whether this is real or imagined, or if asexuality is an excuse for being LD, or even gay, I can say it's incredibly difficult to live with someone who identifies as asexual.

I have no doubt that it's a real thing, and what research I've done indicates that there are more sub-labels than you can shake a stick at when it comes to identifying as asexual. Some hate sex and avoid it. Some actually love sex, but don't require, desire, or otherwise chase it, even when single. My wife seems to fit the latter model. She's a beast in bed, is multi-orgasmic, talented, not at all shy, and we've done it, and do it, all. When it's over, it's over. There's no cuddling or talking or emotions. She'll say good night and roll over, or get dressed and go back to whatever she was doing before. And if I don't initiate sex with her, it will not, and would not happen, ever. Ever.

Talking to her about sex is like talking to an 11 year old - she gets all embarrassed and changes the subject. She can't say words (that would be censored on this site) without being awkward, or even giggling.

Way back in the beginning of our relationship, I had a porno on DVD, that I got free with something I had purchased at a sex shop. I thought it would be fun for us to sit down and watch it, which she agreed to (Amazingly. But this was also within the first few months of our relationship). I've never seen somebody be so uncomfortable like that in my life, and, like you said above, she cracked jokes and otherwise made fun of it. It lasted maybe 5 minutes before I turned it off. No problem it's not for everybody.

She has never told me I'm sexy, or attractive, or anything like that. The best I've ever gotten from her is "you look handsome in that", when I dress up in a suit for something. She's never commented on my body, or my penis. I once asked her about that, and she said they all look the same. Which I suppose they do, but you know. I guess all boobs look the same, too?

But over all, it's the little things like that, that get to the other partner over time. Things that are not AT ALL important to her (or you) but can be to the other person. It's one thing to live with somebody who is more or less sexually available, provided I do the initiating 100% the time. That can be lived with, and even negated, as (at least in my case) the sex is so good.

But it's the little things like that, the general non-attraction, or lack of attraction, even if it's universal, and not just directed at me. It doesn't matter if she's not attracted to anybody else, she's not attracted to ME, and that sucks. It's especially difficult being around other couples who clearly have this attraction for one another, and openly say, or show it, in front of us. I don't have that.

Your two options of either open marriage or divorce, however, are wrong. I don't want either. I DO accept my wife for being the way she is. I know that she makes up for it in other ways, and that she does love me. I have no interest in being with anybody else sexually, or losing her, or both. I'm still very much attracted to her, including physically. Yes, it sucks that when I show this attraction to her, it goes right over her head, but it is what it is.

I'm not sure I'd feel the same way if she had an aversion to sex, however, and I'm not ashamed to admit that. Luckily, she doesn't. It's simply not on her radar, or something that's particularly important to her in the slightest. But there IS sex, and it's good.

So from the sounds of it, you don't have an aversion to sex, which is great. Your husband, however, is going to have to adjust to what will amount to a reactive desire on your part. It was difficult for me to adjust to this, even though in retrospect, it was always the case. This entire conversation basically started with me pointing out that I was the one initiating sex almost all of the time. One thing led to another, and here we are.

So my advice to you is that you understand that sex IS important to your husband, even if it's not to you. Don't reject his advances (unless you have a real reason to), and don't ever make him feel like you think he only wants one thing. It's extremely easy for you to get into that mindset - that all he wants is sex. My wife and I went through that, and we came out the other side, luckily. She now knows that sex is important to a relationship, and that it's not just me who's some crazy pervert who's always thinking of her boobs. In other words, don't negate his feelings, just as you'd expect him not to negate yours.

Second of all, and this may be difficult, but remember to compliment him physically and sexually, even if you have to force yourself. Don't lie, of course, but if he satisfies you, makes your orgasm, and it's good, then tell him. If intercourse feels good (ie. his penis in your vagina), then tell him it feels good. If you have a particularly strong orgasm one night, tell him. That sort of thing.

The issue is that those things are not on your mind, or even your radar. It's foreign to you. To you, his penis is just a penis, and you can't tell the difference between one and the other. They all do the same thing, more or less. To him, it's personal. It's his, and he needs to hear that it's special, that HE'S special. That he's good in bed (if he is... don't lie!) or that that one move he has drives you crazy. Tell him.

And unless you're averse to touch - touch him. Feel his chest, even when you're not having sex. Rub his thigh, grab his butt, and yes - touch his penis. Again, these are not things that you think of doing, because you derive no pleasure from it. But he does. It indicates to him that he is important to you, and that you are thinking of him.

With any luck, you'll never have to actually initiate sex, because simple touching like that will get him going, and he'll do the rest.

It IS something you (and he) can live with, as long as you two are on the same page and work around it. Divorce or an open marriage are not the only options.

Bottom line - if you are asexual, then you need to adjust your way of thinking. You will never become sexual in the way that the rest of us are, so don't bother trying to fix yourself, but like any issue that comes up in life, one has to adjust and understand that the vast majority of people need, require and desire not just sex, but sexual affirmation from their partners. It won't be easy, but you most definitely have to adjust the way you think about the subject.


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## beautymadness23 (Nov 8, 2013)

I don't think I'm low drive. I'm 24 and very healthy. I just can't ever remember feeling a sex drive EXCEPT if I was emotionally turned in, if u know what I mean.

Great advice. However, here's the problem. My husband know I could do things to boost his confidence, stroke his eho, make him feel masculine, make him feel validated sexually, etc...

But he know I just don't naurrally feel that, and he can't get over it. I could donjt, but he now knows that I'm only doing it for him, that I don't care or derive pleasure. That's what he needs. My efforts would not accomplish much because its out in the open, he knows now...he wants me to feel it inside, like a burning fire, a unquenchable desire and I'd that's not there, nothing I do will make him much happier. He feels I'd be pretending. And who wants that?

Hence why I feel there's only two options.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

marduk said:


> You need to first be very calm.
> 
> You may indeed be asexual. But you need to understand that no matter what the media or blogosphere might tell you, it's exceedingly rare to be so.
> 
> ...


I agree with parts of this, but being asexual is much much more than just not desiring sex.

When there's never been any attraction to anybody on a physical level, for example. That is not about sex, that is about attraction. Sex is the physical manifestation of attraction, and is the natural next step when someone is attracted to someone else. Human nature.

When that attraction is not, nor ever has been there, that's a different animal altogether.

So something interesting happens in those people who eventually identify as asexual - usually at a young age, when all their peers are talking about boys (or girls), they tend to not see what they're seeing. They don't get it. This, in turn, usually makes the person question their sexuality at some point. Which is also a dead-end.

So, typically those people recognize something is "off", and usually at a fairly young age, but they go along with what they're "supposed" to do anyway, which is date, have sex, have relationships, etc. Whatever attraction they have towards the people they date, short term or longer term, or even marry, isn't physical in the slightest - because it's not there. They wind up dating people based solely on everything else about them, which isn't a bad thing, either.

Eventually sex becomes a problem, one way or the other. And you wind up here.

But asexuality and LD are very different things. Just because somebody has low desire for sex doesn't mean they can't, or aren't, attracted to whichever gender they identify with being attracted to.

Whereas people who identify with asexuality, in any of it's forms, universally share the same base issue - no physical attraction to anybody, of either gender, ever.

That, IMO, is the easiest way to weed out those who are either LD or asexual.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Never diagnose yourself. That doctor has a fool for a patient.


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## beautymadness23 (Nov 8, 2013)

Alexm, very informative and we'll put response. I was afraid to post here because I felt everyone would misunderstand. Asexuality is taboo, not widely talked about, and some people refuse to acknowledge its real. They think you're gay or low sex drive or etc. 

I know I'm not gay. I only like men.
My sex drive totally hinges on how emotionally connected I'm feeling in the moment. And even then, I don't initiate it because it's not THAT important. The moment passes and I move on. Othrt people have to satisfy that craving, capitalize on the feeling. For me, its fleeting and it I do kt to feel connected. It sartisfies an emotional need, but thats it. I can remember being very turned by my husband when we made love or just experienced an outpouring of emotions.

I don't care to orgasm either. It's too much work and I find it uncomfortable.

I don't know if this can be diagnosed by a doctor. From what I read, its something you identify with, like homosexuality or heterosexuality. It is an orientation. I don't think much people understand.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Asexuality:


> Asexuality (or nonsexuality)[1][2][3] is the lack of sexual attraction to anyone, or low or absent interest in sexual activity.[4][5][6] It may be considered the lack of a sexual orientation, or one of the variations thereof, alongside heterosexuality, homosexuality, and bisexuality.[7][8][9] A study in 2004 placed the prevalence of asexuality at 1% in the British population.[7][10]
> 
> Asexuality is distinct from abstention from sexual activity and from celibacy,[11][12] which are behavioral and generally motivated by factors such as an individual's personal or religious beliefs.[13] Sexual orientation, unlike sexual behavior, is believed to be "enduring."[14] Some asexual people engage in sexual activity despite lacking a desire for sex or sexual attraction, due to a variety of reasons, such as a desire to pleasure themselves or romantic partners, or a desire to have children.


Just be cautious, is all I'm saying.

I had one of my friend's swear that his wife was asexual, and she claimed to be "just over sex." Dug into the asexual literature, even. Counsellors, whole bit.

And then, a few months later, she hit on me.

I'm not saying you can't be. I'm saying that this seems to be something in the nature of 1% of the population... and for some, it comes and goes.

Good stuff here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asexuality


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## brownmale (Apr 20, 2015)

Have faith. I thought I was asexual too. Till I met this great lady, who made me feel like a superhero in bed. It was a real boost to my sexual confidence, which made all the difference.

It was what they call a sexual awakening. Unless it happens to you, it's very hard to describe it.



beautymadness23 said:


> Hello all. This is a follow up from my last post about not knowing how to be erotic. I have discovered I'm asexual.
> 
> I was reading an article last night and it was like a lighbulb going off. Like an epiphany. It was suddenly all so clear. It was going over the signs of asexuality. I fit 90% of them.
> 
> ...


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

beautymadness23 said:


> http://www.asexualityarchive.com/possible-signs-of-asexuality-part-3/
> 
> It is a 3 part series. It is extremely informative and enlightening. I suggest anyone read it that suspect that they may be!
> 
> I felt like I wrote it myself.



Very informative. Thank you for posting the link.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

brownmale said:


> Have faith. I thought I was asexual too. Till I met this great lady, who made me feel like a superhero in bed. It was a real boost to my sexual confidence, which made all the difference.
> 
> It was what they call a sexual awakening. Unless it happens to you, it's very hard to describe it.


I would bet money this is how her husband assumes she is. That she "thinks" she's asexual, but the reality is that she's just not turned on by him. But if she met the right person she'd all of a sudden find her drive. Frankly that's how I would take it too, and I wouldn't be willing to accept it. As she says, divorce or open marriage would be the only acceptable alternatives if she can't bring herself to making him feel like a rock star in bed.


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I would bet money this is how her husband assumes she is. That she "thinks" she's asexual, but the reality is that she's just not turned on by him. But if she met the right person she'd all of a sudden find her drive. Frankly that's how I would take it too, and I wouldn't be willing to accept it. As she says, divorce or open marriage would be the only acceptable alternatives if she can't bring herself to making him feel like a rock star in bed.



BWAAAAAHAAAAAHAAA! Gay men are gay because they haven't met the right woman!


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Elizabeth001 said:


> BWAAAAAHAAAAAHAAA! Gay men are gay because they haven't met the right woman!


Whatever, that's obviously not what I said. The OP could actually use some insight into how her husband is taking this news. Do you have anything useful to say? Any idea how her husband is feeling? Any experience in that arena? Any thoughts on how she can help to fix the situation?


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

I am the husband. So to speak. I'm waiting on insight myself. lol


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

I love it when a post begins with "whatever". Still lmao.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Elizabeth001 said:


> I am the husband. So to speak. I'm waiting on insight myself. lol


So your husband claims he's asexual? And you don't take it personally? How enlightened you must be. Good for you.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Elizabeth001 said:


> I love it when a post begins with "whatever". Still lmao.


Sort of like a post that starts with....



Elizabeth001 said:


> BWAAAAAHAAAAAHAAA!


I've never even engaged with you and I have been nothing but respectful. I think you owe me an apology.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening 
Sex is critically important to the happiness of many people. If the husband is one of these people, he will never get used to, or be happy without sex. He may try, but he will be miserable in the long run, and neither of you wants that. 

Is there anything the husband can do, or not do to be sexually attractive to the wife? I assume you have discussed this and there really isn't anything. It is worth trying everthing you can think of. 

I do believe that asexuality exists, and in varying degrees, just like hetero and homosexuality. Like those it is probably difficult or impossible to change. 

This is no one's fault, but it is a really miserable situation. What are the options:


Open marriage: This very rarely works. The problem is that most people find sex to be very emotionally bonding and that eventually erodes the marriage. Even for people who think this will work, it rarely does. (I know 2 couples who tried and it was a disaster for both).

Just do a service: If the wife doesn't mind sex, even if she doesn't want it, she can do it anyway. This might work, but it is likely to leave her feeling used, and him not really getting the passionate partner that he wants. 

Divorce: Well you are newlyweds you said. This really may be the best option. Then the wife can find someone who shares her lack of interest in sex. I know it sounds awful, but it may be better than the alternative. 


I've lived in a badly mismatched marriage for 25 years now. Its miserable - a problem that never ends. My wife is only low desire, not asexual. I don't recommend this solution.


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

WorkingOnMe said:


> So your husband claims he's asexual? And you don't take it personally? How enlightened you must be. Good for you.



Ugh...no, in a big way. lol 

*I believe my H is asexual. He is too apathetic to research it and to see how we can handle it. 

I take it EXTREMELY personal. That would be my issue, however, I am following knowledge, not trying to hijack a thread.

Furthermore, I am so UNENLIGHTENED that I have TAM Glued to my hand lately. 

Side note: I would like to think that someone has come up with an arm brace or something like that by now??


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Sort of like a post that starts with....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Touché my dear. No apologies necessary. I think we both read each other wrong. I value all opinions. 

*elizabeth has her man servant poor more wine for sire workingonme


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## beautymadness23 (Nov 8, 2013)

I'm honestly about to cry because I can't believe this has happened. My 5 month marriage could be in the brink of divorce already. We were just arguing about it....he agreed that divorce or open marriage are the only options.

Now appeasing him or giving in, trying to find a way to capture some semblance of sexy, will not work. My husband does not care about just having his physical needs met and getting it off. He needs someone who is sensual by nature. It has to feel spontaneous and natural for him, not forced. Any compromise in that area will never work.

I am so desperate for someone to give me hope here.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

beautymadness23 said:


> I am so desperate for someone to give me hope here.


Wish I could help you out, but this is a pretty common theme 'round here. Unenthusiastic duty sex is a sham that most people can see right through. 

If sex is important to him, as it is to most young married people, then you're at a crossroads. It's real, and it won't just go away. Better to face it down now rather than later.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
I'm truly sorry but divorce is probably the best option. Please read the threads here on LD/HD (Low desire / high desire) and you will see how destructive this problem is. It is not your fault, or his fault, but I do not think this can work. 

Please don't spend years or decades in this situation with both of you being miserable - as many of us have done. 

I wish I could offer you hope, but there is none to be had here. 




beautymadness23 said:


> I'm honestly about to cry because I can't believe this has happened. My 5 month marriage could be in the brink of divorce already. We were just arguing about it....he agreed that divorce or open marriage are the only options.
> 
> Now appeasing him or giving in, trying to find a way to capture some semblance of sexy, will not work. My husband does not care about just having his physical needs met and getting it off. He needs someone who is sensual by nature. It has to feel spontaneous and natural for him, not forced. Any compromise in that area will never work.
> 
> I am so desperate for someone to give me hope here.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

We are most assuredly a society of labels. We have a syndrome, dystrophy, complex, disease, disorder or condition for everything that ails us. We have become obsessed with labels to define and explain our oddities and idiosyncrasies. Perhaps if we put as much effort into solving whatever particular malady we believe we have as we put into defining, explaining and diagnosing it many of our "problems" would go away.

I have diagnosed myself as alaborial. I have no interest in, desire for, motivation to nor fondness of manual labor, in fact, I have a significant dislike for it and yet I have spent most of my life performing it. If only I had been diagnosed earlier in life then I could have laid around and spent my life in a reclined position and would not have had to worry about being called unmotivated, slothful and lazy. Whenever someone would have told me I was lazy I could have informed them that I am not lazy, I am alaborial. I can only hope that modern medicine will have a pharmaceutical answer to my problem in the near future.

Must we not, at some point, come to the realization that labeling ourselves in an effort to alleviate accountability is damaging to us, our relationships and society as a whole. I spend time on the CWI board and am perplexed as to why all wayward spouses have not been diagnosed with afaithfullness syndrome. It would relieve them of all accountability and we would be unable to scorn them since they are "sick" and to do so would be insensitive and cruel.

Life gives us what it gives us and it is up to each of us to make the very best of it that we can, label or not. The label only relieves us of obligation in our own mind, in reality however, we are still very much obliged.

I really mean no malice herein but I simply believe that this obsession with blaming something for our inabilities is sorely damaging our society and its members. If anyone deems me to be unkind and wishes to ridicule me, I must inform you that I have recently researched on the internet and believe that I suffer from asensitivity disorder. A medicinal treatment is currently being tested by the FDA.


Really?


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## beautymadness23 (Nov 8, 2013)

Very Interesting perspective and thoughts from the last poster....can't remember username. 

If there's a way I can overcome this, I will do it! I want to do whatever it takes. The problem is that he knows me too well, be can see right thru me. He knows the sensuality side of me is missing. I could whip out all sorts of crazy sexual things, but he would know I'm doing it for him not for me. And that's what he cant accept, understandably. If it's not natural, it won't make a difference.

So if it's a false label and I can remedy it, how do I make myself "sexual"?


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

beautymadness23 said:


> Very Interesting perspective and thoughts from the last poster....can't remember username.
> 
> If there's a way I can overcome this, I will do it! I want to do whatever it takes. The problem is that he knows me too well, be can see right thru me. He knows the sensuality side of me is missing. I could whip out all sorts of crazy sexual things, but he would know I'm doing it for him not for me. And that's what he cant accept, understandably. If it's not natural, it won't make a difference.
> 
> So if it's a false label and I can remedy it, how do I make myself "sexual"?


OP,
As with anything worthwhile it will require work, diligence and resourcefulness. The internet can be a wonderful resource and a damning curse, choose which you want it to be for you.

Study and research all you can about human sexuality. You may not have quite the natural propensity that many others have but do not give up until you exhaust any and all resources. Do not be afraid to explore your sexuality, there is no condemnation, only discovery. See as your goal a marriage happy and strong.

I believe you will find the root cause for your "indifference". Perhaps then counseling, if you can find a good sexual therapist. Your H will see your sincere desire and it will be "natural" even if the sex isn't....at first, but in time......you may find a more sexual being inside you than you ever thought possible.

Allow me to leave you with this quote: If a person wants to do something badly enough, they will find a way - If not, they will find an excuse.

I wish you every success and if you are sincere about your desire, I believe you will find it.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

marduk said:


> Asexuality:
> 
> 
> Just be cautious, is all I'm saying.
> ...


Again, not disagreeing with you, but... 

The fact that she hit on you still doesn't mean she's not asexual. It doesn't mean she finds you physically attractive. She may find you attractive in other ways, and she's been taught that that's how you land somebody (which it is, effectively).

My wife has had a lot of sex partners in her lifetime. Not ridiculous numbers, but more than one would assume somebody who identifies as asexual would have. But again, sex is just something one does - and that is/was her thought on the subject. She also finds it pleasurable, and having sex is what you're supposed to do with a partner.

It really depends on the personality of the person. So if you were to talk to my wife, she'd tell you she had sex with people for the same reasons others do - it's fun, it makes you feel wanted, desired, needed, etc. But the part that asexual people don't have, that you and I do, is the need for you, yourself, to scratch that itch. Nor do they require a strong physical attraction to someone.

So if this woman hit on you it's not necessarily because she really wants to nail you, or finds you so hot she must bed you, or is thinking about you naked. It's entirely possible that she was practicing, so to speak, or after something else, and this is how she knew how to go about it.

Maybe she felt so lonely after she told her husband about her issue and he neglected her because of it. What's the easiest way to get that ego boost back?


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

beautymadness23 said:


> I have been off sexually for all my adult life.


So, you've known for awhile now, probably since puberty?



beautymadness23 said:


> So what do I do now? My husband has always known that I was different or that something was off, but he didn't know what.


And you certainly didn't tell him, did you? Why not? Selfishness? You wanted a man, and to be married and whatever chump you chose is just going to have to accept it. 

Sorry for being blunt, but I can easily put myself in your husband's shoes. I'd be tossing about accusations of fraud, dishonesty, selfishness, etc. 

You seem to just accept the idea that ''it's my orientation, so I'm helpless against it''…..I don't buy it….you bought into ''out'' very easily.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

OnTheFly said:


> So, you've known for awhile now, probably since puberty?
> 
> And you certainly didn't tell him, did you? Why not? Selfishness? You wanted a man, and to be married and whatever chump you chose is just going to have to accept it.
> 
> ...


That is pretty harsh. From the original post, it appears that she didn't know she was asexual until very recently, so how could she have told him that?

But he does need to know what is going on, after she has made sure she really fits that profile, preferably with some outside counseling.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Let's say it is an orientation just like gay or straight. If one's spouse comes out as gay a few months into marriage do you stay married?


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

My thought is, if you want to stay married better convince him that you are not asexual, and I mean right now.


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

technovelist said:


> That is pretty harsh. From the original post, it appears that she didn't know she was asexual until very recently, so how could she have told him that?
> 
> But he does need to know what is going on, after she has made sure she really fits that profile, preferably with some outside counseling.


Agreed, that's why I said, ''Sorry for being blunt''

I put myself in his shoes and it angered me. Through no fault of his own, he now has to endure quite a sh*t sandwich for which there are no easy answer. I truly feel for him. Not so much her. Again, just my opinion.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

OnTheFly said:


> Agreed, that's why I said, ''Sorry for being blunt''
> 
> I put myself in his shoes and it angered me. Through no fault of his own, he now has to endure quite a sh*t sandwich for which there are no easy answer. I truly feel for him. Not so much her. Again, just my opinion.


No problem; I understand and agree that I would not want to be in her husband's place.

On the other hand, if I were her husband, and she would do whatever I wanted to please me sexually, I would probably be okay with that, even though it wasn't spontaneous.


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

technovelist said:


> No problem; I understand and agree that I would not want to be in her husband's place.
> 
> On the other hand, if I were her husband, and she would do whatever I wanted to please me sexually, I would probably be okay with that, even though it wasn't spontaneous.


This is probably the least crappy option, and if all other aspects of the relationship were top notch, I'd agree.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

beautymadness23 said:


> Very Interesting perspective and thoughts from the last poster....can't remember username.
> 
> If there's a way I can overcome this, I will do it! I want to do whatever it takes. The problem is that he knows me too well, be can see right thru me. He knows the sensuality side of me is missing. I could whip out all sorts of crazy sexual things, but he would know I'm doing it for him not for me. And that's what he cant accept, understandably. If it's not natural, it won't make a difference.
> 
> So if it's a false label and I can remedy it, how do I make myself "sexual"?


It's not a false label, despite some folks who think otherwise.

But what you do need to do is ensure this is indeed what you are. Because you fit the description and can check off a lot of the boxes certainly seems to indicate so, however you owe it to yourself to rule out any and all other possible avenues before you make that leap.

The advice I can give you on this subject is based on me being in your husbands shoes, and going through this same scenario about a year ago. Same way you two are going about it - this wasn't on your, or his, radar until recently. You've always known something was off, or different. He pointed out your lack of initiation or interest, yet you two still have a sex life, etc etc etc.

I felt the same way at first - divorce, or open relationship. That quickly passed.

However, the one difference I can see from your posts, as far as your sexuality and my wifes, is that my wife enjoys sex, thoroughly. But, like you, there's just no drive or interest in it, or need for it - until it's happening. Then everything seems "normal".

You mentioned that you don't care to orgasm, and that it's painful, and not necessary. My wife is multi-multi-orgasmic. This makes an enormous difference to me, as once sex is happening, I know she's not just going through the motions.

What most people (men, especially) require from a sexual relationship is two things - desire and interest in them, and participation/knowledge that their partner is able to be pleased or satisfied by them. It makes us feel good that our partner wants us. And it makes us feel good that we can make our partners feel good. (especially us guys, it makes us feel studly :wink2: )

I'm missing the first part - there IS no interest or desire for me from my wife. But I DO have the second part.

So my primary advice to you is - work on the second part, not the first. The desire and interest is not going to come, if you truly are asexual. It will never be there, and you will never understand how it works, or why. You can't fix that.

But what you CAN fix, is your ability to enjoy sex. You need to figure out why it's painful. Is it mental? Is it physiological? Talk to a doctor, do some research on painful orgasms. And as much as it would take an enormous amount of effort on your part - masturbate and get to know your body.

Never masturbating (for whatever reason, religious, no interest, never had any privacy, feelings of guilt - whatever) is detrimental to one's sexual health, imo - especially as a woman. We guys are pretty straight forward about that. Getting to know one's penis and what works is pretty basic. As a woman, getting to know one's vagina and what works is much more complex.

So currently, this is your only option - get to know what works for you, sexually. Get to know your body, learn how to orgasm, or at least enjoy sex, and the rest will come. Your husband will have to learn, as I did, that interest in him, in that way, will never occur, and that is has nothing to do with him. He will have to learn that he will be the initiator going forward. And as long as you are a willing participant, he will adapt.

But I'm not kidding - you need to learn how to have sex and enjoy it. You may know what to do to, and for, him, but I don't get the impression you know what YOU like or would work for you - and that is huge, as far as he is concerned.

Because, as of right now, he knows his wife isn't interested in sex AND that she isn't satisfied, or cares to be. So what that does to him is make him think (probably rightly so) that his entire sex life is essentially no more than masturbation for him. His wife has no desire for him, and he doesn't satisfy her. That's a huge blow to his ego.

So to sum up: don't work on becoming more sexual outside of the bedroom - it isn't going to happen. DO work on becoming more sexual IN the bedroom. The two things aren't even related. There are many, many women who have desire and need for sex, but don't have a clue as to what works for them. So learn that, asap, and involve him, if necessary. Figure out what YOU like, first, on your own, then translate that to him in the bedroom. Whatever he's doing currently isn't working for you, but you can't tell him that, because you don't know what DOES work for you.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

OP, after going back and reading your earlier threads, I would say I think you need to be very, _very_, cautious in deciding that you are asexual. It is not uncommon for women to have responsive desire. It's also not uncommon for women to not want to have sex with men they don't like and respect. A parent/child dynamic, which you and your husband seem to have in spades, is often times very toxic to a romantic relationship. As is having a partner who's decided that something's wrong with you and is demanding that you "fix yourself" to be more in-line with what he or she thinks you "should" be - particularly if what you "should" be is the perpetually submissive teen your older partner initially chose.

I think it's perhaps premature to decide you're asexual without consulting with a sex therapist who has some experience with the issue. It's entirely possible you are asexual. Some people genuinely are. But I think it's also entirely possible that your relationship (which you've been in since age 18) is just bad enough that you don't desire your husband. It's possible that in a good relationship, in which your emotional needs are being met, you might be not just able, but entirely willing and eager, to have a mutually fulfilling sex life.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

beautymadness23 said:


> Very Interesting perspective and thoughts from the last poster....can't remember username.
> 
> If there's a way I can overcome this, I will do it! I want to do whatever it takes. The problem is that he knows me too well, be can see right thru me. He knows the sensuality side of me is missing. I could whip out all sorts of crazy sexual things, but he would know I'm doing it for him not for me. And that's what he cant accept, understandably. If it's not natural, it won't make a difference.
> 
> So if it's a false label and I can remedy it, how do I make myself "sexual"?


I am no doctor, just a married schmo who likes sex with his wife. I too desire my wife to desire me. Like the old song says "I want you to want me." In years past I thought my wife was asexual as well. Regardless, she tried and tries. If she IS faking it, she's doing a damn find job. Perhaps the third option is "fake it till you make it." 

You never know. You might turn out to be a Oscar worthy actress !
A worthy pursuit if you can stomach it. No pun intended:surprise:


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

I suggest you investigate further before concluding you are asexual. Unless you're had a full hormone workup, you can't rule out a physical cause. I also suggest some IC with someone who has some knowledge in this area, before concluding anything or deciding anything about your marriage.

Now, if you truly are asexual, what - if anything - you can do that will work for you and your husband is the next issue. I doubt that an open marriage will work for long, as eventually he will meet someone he likes who is sexual in the ways he desires, and that may be the end of your marriage. IMO, it would be better in the long run to divorce and remain good friends if you truly like each other aside from this issue.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

do you reproduce by splitting into two?


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## beautymadness23 (Nov 8, 2013)

Badinbed...to answer your question, our young son is the only one who lives with us. We just moved out of our home state, the 3 of us. The girls live back home with their mom. We talk on the phone and are going to fly them down here, but that's about it. However, we are a happily blended family. Our son loves his sisters and the girls view me as a motherly figure. It's not always easy, but I'm thankful.

Perhaps I do need to go into a doctor or therapist. I will talk to husband about that to see if finances allow. I'm a stay at home mom, be works. But he feels confident and that I am assxual, and doesn't think I need some kind of diagnosis. He believes its the truth. But a dr could maybe check hirmine levels a d a therapist would at least provide someone to talk to. I feel I have no one to talk to about this. So few people identify with this and many people don't even think it's really and legitimate.

After talking about it last night, my husband wants to go down the path of open marriage to get his needs met. There would be no setting up of online profiles, more like going to meet ups to meet a woman and put it together. He doesn't know how often or when, as he works lot and any free time is spent with me and our son. We also just moved somewhere where we don't know anyone and have no friends. In the mean time, he just wants us to continue as we are, for me to do my best, and if the right opportunity came about, he'dd want to feel free to take it.

He feels trapped and stuck. He doesn't think its fair he should have to just accept this forever. He did know that something was wrong or missing shen he proposed...he's known forever. He married me anyway, hoping it would change. And now we discovered this.

I'm trying to justify this and be ok with this. I tell myself...as long as its only once in awhile, not in our home, I don't know about it, etc. But I fear once he gets a taste, he will want to leave me. Or he'll end up developing feelings. He says I should trust it'll be OK, but I don't think I do. He has been so driven by sex in the past, that I don't know if he could keep it it check.

But I find myself accepting this because we can not and don't want a divorce. He says he wants to be with me and wants this from me, but he can't go on feeling unfulfilled like he has for so long. He has always felt a drive to sleep look elsewhere, but now we know why. He wasn't just being an ass and a bad person.

Is this all crazy and destined to fail?


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

beautymadness23 said:


> Badinbed...to answer your question, our young son is the only one who lives with us. We just moved out of our home state, the 3 of us. The girls live back home with their mom. We talk on the phone and are going to fly them down here, but that's about it. However, we are a happily blended family. Our son loves his sisters and the girls view me as a motherly figure. It's not always easy, but I'm thankful.
> 
> Perhaps I do need to go into a doctor or therapist. I will talk to husband about that to see if finances allow. I'm a stay at home mom, be works. But he feels confident and that I am assxual, and doesn't think I need some kind of diagnosis. He believes its the truth. But a dr could maybe check hirmine levels a d a therapist would at least provide someone to talk to. I feel I have no one to talk to about this. So few people identify with this and many people don't even think it's really and legitimate.
> 
> ...


My response to this may be a little off and not what you expected, but here goes.

Sounds like your husband wants you to be diagnosed as asexual vs. just plain LD so that he can go out and get some on the side. It's easy for him to say, "yep, it's final, you're asexual and there is nothing we can do about it. I don't want to get a divorce. It's nice to have you here cooking, cleaning and taking care of the kid. If you want to get ahold of me I'll be at the bar down the street getting some strange."

Sounds half baked to me. More than likely you're just LD with responsive desire. Maybe if your husband gets off his asss and works together with you things can get better. Or maybe I'm just crazy.

Just my 2cents.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

I haven't read all the replys yet so just trying to help the OP:

Visit a website called "AVEN" for more insight & personal experiences with asexuality. It IS a sexual orientation & it IS normal but there is a spectrum.

I am a 56 yr. old woman who is asexual. I have had plenty of partners & a long term (22 yrs.) marriage & am in my 2nd marriage of 5 years. I have never felt sexual desire. I do have sex (some asexuals are sex-repulsed & do not engage) & like to please my partners/husband but I never initate & can only orgasm with a vibrator. Some sexual acts do repulse me so I don't engage in those that do.

I came to terms with my asexuality 2 yrs. ago. My 1st husband only wanted to get off & he was quick so sex with him was fine (the marriage ended for other reasons - I left him). 

My current husband wants to be desired, wants to do the sexual acts that repulse me & takes over an hour to get off. Needless to say, we are incompatible in bed. 

I have offered him a divorce (short marriage; no children together) & have opened up the marriage for him (not me - no desire). Next move is on him.

When you visit Aven, be sure to check out the sexuals with asexuals forum. Lots of couples find compromises that work for them.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

beautymadness23 said:


> Badinbed...to answer your question, our young son is the only one who lives with us. We just moved out of our home state, the 3 of us. The girls live back home with their mom. We talk on the phone and are going to fly them down here, but that's about it. However, we are a happily blended family. Our son loves his sisters and the girls view me as a motherly figure. It's not always easy, but I'm thankful.
> 
> Perhaps I do need to go into a doctor or therapist. I will talk to husband about that to see if finances allow. I'm a stay at home mom, be works. But he feels confident and that I am assxual, and doesn't think I need some kind of diagnosis. He believes its the truth. But a dr could maybe check hirmine levels a d a therapist would at least provide someone to talk to. I feel I have no one to talk to about this. So few people identify with this and many people don't even think it's really and legitimate.
> 
> ...


What do you want?

Do you want this label to take the pressure off?

Do you want him to stop wanting sex?

Do you want an amicable divorce or coparenting situation?

You're all over the map here. What's a successful outcome for you?


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## bc3543 (Aug 24, 2015)

beautymadness23 said:


> He feels trapped and stuck. He doesn't think its fair he should have to just accept this forever. He did know that something was wrong or missing shen he proposed...he's known forever. He married me anyway, hoping it would change. And now we discovered this.


As I guy I agree with this. (Until this post I didn't realize you had a kid so that complicates things, but still).

I only see two options. 

1. you dedicate yourself to enthusiastically overcoming this issue (I think it likely that this IS possible, though could be very difficult) - find and fix a hormone imbalance, find a mentor who has been thru this and beat it, sex therapy, whatever, try it all and pour yourself into it to save your marriage. I would ask him for a specific amount of time for self-improvement where you commit to fix anything you possibly can, while he commits to not separate/not have an affair during that time. At the end you can re-evaluate the outcome. 
In the mean-time, give him a few rocking hand jobs just to show that he is important to you. Anyone can do that if they want to.

2. If you decide you can't or don't want to make this change, then set him free. Divorce. It would be easier now than 20 years from now.

If he is already feeling trapped by the current situation, if you do nothing I can promise it will get 10x worse in several years when the newlywed love wears off and years of resentments have built up. He may learn to live with it but in the process he will lose much of his man-hood and self-esteem. Just read the threads of 50 and 60 y/o men who have lived with a non-sexual wife their entire lives - they just feel pathetic yet their investment in the marriage has gone on so long they can't get out, and they are too old to start over. Don't do this to him, please.


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## Always Learning (Oct 2, 2013)

He is complaining to you that he needs to feel desired by YOU. He won't accept your best effort to be sexual with him since he "knows" that you will be faking the desire part. He sealed the diagnosis as asexual. Now he wants an open marriage where he will occasionally go out and get what he needs (sexually desired). He wants to feel free to take the opportunity when it presents itself.

How the hell is he going to get the sexual desire that he is missing from you under this arrangement?

I am calling BS on his excuse to cheat! 

He is gaslighting you so he can hit on anyone he feels like, blaming your undiagnosed asexuality.

For all I know you may be asexual, but having an open marriage will not give him what he claims is missing. He should be looking for a way to have that connection with his wife or SO. If he can't make that with you because he knows you will be faking it then he should do the right thing and let you be with someone that will appreciate you for who you are. In other words divorce.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Rowan said:


> OP, after going back and reading your earlier threads, I would say I think you need to be very, _very_, cautious in deciding that you are asexual. It is not uncommon for women to have responsive desire. It's also not uncommon for women to not want to have sex with men they don't like and respect. A parent/child dynamic, which you and your husband seem to have in spades, is often times very toxic to a romantic relationship. As is having a partner who's decided that something's wrong with you and is demanding that you "fix yourself" to be more in-line with what he or she thinks you "should" be - particularly if what you "should" be is the perpetually submissive teen your older partner initially chose.
> 
> I think it's perhaps premature to decide you're asexual without consulting with a sex therapist who has some experience with the issue. It's entirely possible you are asexual. Some people genuinely are. But I think it's also entirely possible that your relationship (which you've been in since age 18) is just bad enough that you don't desire your husband. It's possible that in a good relationship, in which your emotional needs are being met, you might be not just able, but entirely willing and eager, to have a mutually fulfilling sex life.


Again, though, you'll need to explain the lack of attraction to anybody of either gender - which is what asexuality is truly about. It's not about SEX, it's about not being attracted to, or desiring sex with anybody.

That's what asexuality actually is, and that's the one universal amongst anybody who identifies as such. Everything else can be variable (ie. some asexuals like sex, some hate it, some are afraid of it, some will even seek it out, some masturbate, some do not, etc.)

But what they all have in common is that they do not feel physical or sexual attraction to either gender, at all, ever, and never have. Just as heterosexual people do not have physical or sexual attraction to the same sex, asexuals do not have that for either sex.

You know how I know I'm heterosexual? Because I don't get turned on by men. I don't see a man and have sexy thoughts. I don't get sexually aroused by seeing men. I have no DESIRE to have sex with a man. But - I am not against it or opposed to it - I've just never done it.

Furthermore, as I said above in regards to asexuality, there is a spectrum to this. I am not repulsed by the thought of having sex with a man, or by seeing another man's penis. I don't think it's disgusting, or gross, or wrong. I just have no desire to engage in a sexual act with a man, nor would I be offended if a man hit on me. However, there are many heterosexual men that cringe at the thought of homosexual sex, or the sight of a penis.

Some people are attracted to their own sex, some are attracted to the opposite sex, some are attracted to both sexes. So why is it so difficult to fathom that - ba ba baaaa! - some people aren't attracted to either?

OP has clearly stated that she has never felt any physical or sexual attraction to anybody, not just her husband, so it's not him. Nor, do I believe, has she felt any attraction to the same sex. Therefore...


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

alexm said:


> Again, though, you'll need to explain the lack of attraction to anybody of either gender - which is what asexuality is truly about. It's not about SEX, it's about not being attracted to, or desiring sex with anybody.
> 
> That's what asexuality actually is, and that's the one universal amongst anybody who identifies as such. Everything else can be variable (ie. some asexuals like sex, some hate it, some are afraid of it, some will even seek it out, some masturbate, some do not, etc.)
> 
> ...


I guess the main problem for me and other NON asexual people is the ability to even remotely comprehend their situation. It's hard for me to wrap my mind around not EVER feeling attraction, period!

It's a delicate situation. For me to answer either way (which I have) may be analogous to feeling qualified to do heart surgery because I have a heart.

I will bow out because frankly I don't want to do any harm.

Peace.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

alexm said:


> Again, though, you'll need to explain the lack of attraction to anybody of either gender - which is what asexuality is truly about. It's not about SEX, it's about not being attracted to, or desiring sex with anybody.
> 
> That's what asexuality actually is, and that's the one universal amongst anybody who identifies as such. Everything else can be variable (ie. some asexuals like sex, some hate it, some are afraid of it, some will even seek it out, some masturbate, some do not, etc.)
> 
> ...


And if this is truly the case, the she may likely be asexual. As I said earlier, it's possible that she is. I'm not arguing the validity of the possibility, only that she may wish to be cautious in embracing it as an answer to what her (seemingly _quite_ eager to open the marriage) husband perceives is "wrong" with her.


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

And who exactly is qualified to give her the stamp of approval that she is definitely asexual? Psych-something or an MD? I think we are who we identify as being. There's no blood test to prove sexual orientation. I give her props for facing her situation and looking for help in her marriage.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Elizabeth001 said:


> And who exactly is qualified to give her the stamp of approval that she is definitely asexual? Psych-something or an MD? I think we are who we identify as being. There's no blood test to prove sexual orientation. I give her props for facing her situation and looking for help in her marriage.


I think anyone can self-identify as whatever they want even if it's not technically true. Like a man can dress as a woman and self-identify as a woman even if biologically it's not true. 

With the case of asexuality, especially within a marriage, I'd personally want to explore it with a psychiatrist specializing in sexuality and gender. It's a vastly more complex situation than just trying it on as a lifestyle, even if it becomes permanent.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Elizabeth001 said:


> And who exactly is qualified to give her the stamp of approval that she is definitely asexual? Psych-something or an MD? I think we are who we identify as being. There's no blood test to prove sexual orientation. I give her props for facing her situation and looking for help in her marriage.


Perhaps no one, but a professional will know more of the possibilities than does she, and better how to choose among them. 

Did you ever see the video of the Amazing Randi and the horoscope test? He hands a room full of people a horoscope that he claims is painstakingly derived from the circumstances of their birth. He then asks the group to rate how well they think the horoscope describes them personally. Nearly everyone rated it a 4 or 5 out of 5. 

He then tells everyone to hand their horoscope to the person behind them and give it a read. Turns out he provided everyone in the room with the same horoscope.

People find in themselves what they're looking for. Discerning the truth can be more difficult.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Cletus said:


> Perhaps no one, but a professional will know more of the possibilities than does she, and better how to choose among them.
> 
> Did you ever see the video of the Amazing Randi and the horoscope test? He hands a room full of people a horoscope that he claims is painstakingly derived from the circumstances of their birth. He then asks the group to rate how well they think the horoscope describes them personally. Nearly everyone rated it a 4 or 5 out of 5.
> 
> ...


So everyone in the room was born at the same instant (and in the same place)? Wow, that *is* amazing! >


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I'm not convinced at all that you're asexual. And frankly I won't be convinced until you being asexual coincident to being married to a douche is no longer the case. Reading some of your history from previous threads I can totally understand why you're not into him. Not many people feel sexual in a parent/child relationship. I think it's all pretty simple. Your husband doesn't really inspire you, and you're taking it all in as your fault. And of course it's much easier for him to go along with that, since anything else would involve some personal responsibility for him. Plus the fact that you being asexual means that he gets to cheat, or start over. And let's not forget that he picked you when you were 18 and he was quite a bit older. Now you're getting older too. If you open the marriage, do you think he's going to go looking for a 30 year old? I have my doubts.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

technovelist said:


> So everyone in the room was born at the same instant (and in the same place)? Wow, that *is* amazing! >


Hah! Yeah, I couldn't believe it either. At least the horoscope was accurate.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

UMP said:


> My response to this may be a little off and not what you expected, but here goes.
> 
> Sounds like your husband wants you to be diagnosed as asexual vs. just plain LD so that he can go out and get some on the side. It's easy for him to say, "yep, it's final, you're asexual and there is nothing we can do about it. I don't want to get a divorce. It's nice to have you here cooking, cleaning and taking care of the kid. If you want to get ahold of me I'll be at the bar down the street getting some strange."
> 
> ...


I would seriously consider this and not discount the possibility. See below.



beautymadness23 said:


> Badinbed...to answer your question, our young son is the only one who lives with us. We just moved out of our home state, the 3 of us. The girls live back home with their mom. We talk on the phone and are going to fly them down here, but that's about it. However, we are a happily blended family. Our son loves his sisters and the girls view me as a motherly figure. It's not always easy, but I'm thankful.
> 
> Perhaps I do need to go into a doctor or therapist. I will talk to husband about that to see if finances allow. I'm a stay at home mom, be works. But he feels confident and that I am assxual, and doesn't think I need some kind of diagnosis. He believes its the truth. But a dr could maybe check hirmine levels a d a therapist would at least provide someone to talk to. I feel I have no one to talk to about this. So few people identify with this and many people don't even think it's really and legitimate.
> 
> ...


He wants to pursue an open marriage. Is that not like wanting a holey boat? I would consider this to be very troubling.

He feels trapped? Why does he not feel challenged and inspired to find the answer to this? He did marry you anyway... 



alexm said:


> It's not a false label, despite some folks who think otherwise.
> 
> But what you do need to do is ensure this is indeed what you are. Because you fit the description and can check off a lot of the boxes certainly seems to indicate so, however you owe it to yourself to rule out any and all other possible avenues before you make that leap.
> 
> ...


I never once mentioned the word false in any post. I believe in fact that the labels are all too real to those with malleable minds looking for an easy explanation. Life is anything but so perhaps she can use some of your advice and some hard work to "overcome" her asexuality.

However, I feel that without her husbands participation, encouragement and understanding it will be exceedingly difficult for her.

OP,
The open marriage idea I feel to be strewn with negative possibilities and personally would not consider it. You and your H have taken vows for better or worse. This appears to be worse so perhaps the two of you could work to make it better.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

NoChoice said:


> I never once mentioned the word false in any post.


The OP did, and I was responding to her


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Cletus said:


> Never diagnose yourself. That doctor has a fool for a patient.


Asexuality is not a disease or disorder. It is an orientation. And no one but you gets to decide what your orientation is.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Beauty,

Here's the thing. You don't want to be in a situation where you end up feeling pressured to do stuff you don't want to do on a regular basis. That isn't workable. 

And it isn't fair to your H to be with someone who typically sees sex as a chore. 

Go find a very low drive man. You two aren't compatible. 




beautymadness23 said:


> I'm honestly about to cry because I can't believe this has happened. My 5 month marriage could be in the brink of divorce already. We were just arguing about it....he agreed that divorce or open marriage are the only options.
> 
> Now appeasing him or giving in, trying to find a way to capture some semblance of sexy, will not work. My husband does not care about just having his physical needs met and getting it off. He needs someone who is sensual by nature. It has to feel spontaneous and natural for him, not forced. Any compromise in that area will never work.
> 
> I am so desperate for someone to give me hope here.


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## Bobby5000 (Oct 19, 2011)

I think the solution is pretty easy. :smile2:

A whole lot of women are on the lower desire end of the scale. So figure 1 or 2 times a week, try to stimulate your husband, spread the legs a little, throw in some oohs and ahs and for 15 minutes a week, you have solidified your marriage. Or you can frustrate him, let him be angry, see other women, argue about it, he can start denying you things, and go to divorce court. Honey I would love to have dinner with your mother but unfortunately I am not in the mood, it's my problem I know, but we're not doing anyone any good were I to go over her house and I just didn't feel into it. 

Most men are satisfied with a marriage with decent sex and many do not marry the best sex partner.


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## beautymadness23 (Nov 8, 2013)

bc3543 said:


> beautymadness23 said:
> 
> 
> > He feels trapped and stuck. He doesn't think its fair he should have to just accept this forever. He did know that something was wrong or missing shen he proposed...he's known forever. He married me anyway, hoping it would change. And now we discovered this.
> ...



My husband was reading these posts tonight and we went through them together. He felt this advice and possible solution was the most sound and resonates with him the most. 

So now my husband says that he wants me to pour myself into fixing this, changing this for awhile. Make it my mission, my life's work so to speak for a while. 

I know that this is the best option and the first step I should take. The least destructive of the three and the most fruitful solution, as in bringing us together and fostering growth and inspiring love and passion. The solution that I cant go wrong with, the most positively enriching for my life. Yet I feel myself fighting it and pushing back. I don't want to. It feels unfair, dreadful, and daunting. And I shouldn't feel that way. It's like, whats wrong with me? I don't feel that way in any area of my life when it comes to bettering myself, but this seems to be out of my reach or something. 

But I still want this, I want to do it for my husband and for us. Not for me, but maybe that will change with work. As mystical as this sounds, I can not allow my inner child fighting this with every fiber of my being to win. I'm better than that, I believe. I have to know I've done everything I can before resorting to other option or I will feel I've let myself down and not stayed true to my vows.

But this feels so big and scary and being me and unreachable....where do I begin? It's like a new world. I known im asking for instruction on something that should not have to be explained...that is the problem. But without it, I know I will fail. So any help is appreciated.

Thank you everyone for your responses! It have me and husband lots to think about.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

beautymadness23 said:


> I'm honestly about to cry because I can't believe this has happened. My 5 month marriage could be in the brink of divorce already. We were just arguing about it....he agreed that divorce or open marriage are the only options.
> 
> Now appeasing him or giving in, trying to find a way to capture some semblance of sexy, will not work. My husband does not care about just having his physical needs met and getting it off. He needs someone who is sensual by nature. It has to feel spontaneous and natural for him, not forced. Any compromise in that area will never work.
> 
> I am so desperate for someone to give me hope here.


I'll try to give you hope.

Never, ever, self diagnose based on something you read or find on the internet.

Instead, find a therapist/counselor who is also a sex therapist. You and your husband go to that person. Get a professional who sees this type of thing all the time to help you.

.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

beautymadness...go to this website and sign up at their forum. They have many people who are asexual who are in committed sexual relationships. They talk about these issues and how they handle them and their struggles. They will be of immense help to you, and they are very lovely and accepting. There are also some sexuals there who are in committed relationships with asexuals, and some couples with this configuration. You and your husband could both benefit from reading and posting.

The Asexual Visibility and Education Network | asexuality.org

The most important thing for you right now is to not assume this will be insurmountable. Just find a way to get started, and see how it goes for you. I am not saying you will change or become sexual, I am just saying it may not be as daunting to you as you fear it will be and the benefits may create a forward momentum within you. Do not feel like a lost and lonely freak. Find your people. A lot of them are at AVEN.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Beauty,

I want to help you - so I'm going to suggest you two do an exercise that will increase your empathy for each other.

His exercise is to take his favorite food and eat it until he's overly full. And then force himself to eat one more portion. He doesn't need to actually reach the point of tossing his cookies - but close enough to feel nauseous. 

The purpose of this exercise is to help him understand that too much sex, for a LD/asexual person actually feels bad. Most HD folks don't understand the concept of bad sex. This is a proxy for it. 

And your exercise is to fast for a day - the same day he eats himself nearly sick. Because what you will learn is that at a certain point you can't stop thinking about/obsessing about eating. And that's how a sex starved HD person gets. Obsessed. 

Oh - yeah - you can drink water though - dehydration is unhealthy. But that's it. Only water. 

Because right now you don't have a clue - either of you - as to how the other perceives this shared experience. And that's a big part of your problem.

And FWIW, if neither or both of you is committed enough to do this, I doubt you'll make it to New Years. Right now you're not only worlds apart in desire, but in comprehension. 

Oh yeah - I almost forgot. You need to sit with him while he eats dinner. Because the worst lie that LD folks tell themselves is this one: celibacy is no big deal, folks go without sex in between boy friend / girl friends. But that is hugely different than being in close proximity to someone you love and desire, who is neither interested nor willing to have sex with you. So sitting at the table watching him eat, is a proxy for him having intense desire, lying next to you in bed while you happily drift off to sleep....

After you do this exercise you ought to sit down and discuss a target frequency. And whether you prefer a fixed schedule or would rather have the option of choosing which nights each week you'd like to connect. 

If this all makes sense to you I have a few other suggestions, but this step needs to happen first. 




beautymadness23 said:


> My husband was reading these posts tonight and we went through them together. He felt this advice and possible solution was the most sound and resonates with him the most.
> 
> So now my husband says that he wants me to pour myself into fixing this, changing this for awhile. Make it my mission, my life's work so to speak for a while.
> 
> ...


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

umm.....:scratchhead:


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

beautymadness23 said:


> My husband was reading these posts tonight and we went through them together. He felt this advice and possible solution was the most sound and resonates with him the most.
> 
> *So now my husband says that he wants me to pour myself into fixing this, changing this for awhile. Make it my mission, my life's work so to speak for a while.* This is good but he must pour himself into it as well, it must be a collaboration.
> 
> ...


To your husband I would posit that this can be viewed by him as a defeat or a challenge to rise to. As he works to find ways to bring to life your sexuality, while simultaneously you are working to the same end, you two will meet as your paths cross in this endeavor. He and you will be working towards the same objective rather than pulling in opposite directions.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

I think that any efforts you make, OP, to pouring your heart and soul into "fixing" your sexuality, should be matched by your husband's commitment to fixing your _relationship_. I don't think either of you can fix your marital issues alone.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

beautymadness23 said:


> It's like, whats wrong with me? I don't feel that way in any area of my life when it comes to bettering myself, but this seems to be out of my reach or something.
> But this feels so big and scary and being me and unreachable....where do I begin? It's like a new world. I known im asking for instruction on something that should not have to be explained...that is the problem. But without it, I know I will fail. So any help is appreciated.


A few things:

It's not about bettering yourself, it's about bettering the relationship. Don't forget that.

Two - it's not AS difficult as you're believing it will be. It's simply a change in your mindset. People go through things like this all the time throughout their lives - new jobs, pregnancy, deaths, marriages, divorce, moving, etc. All are minor or major changes to ones life, and sometimes they can seem daunting, but we all get through them.

As I said earlier, you don't seem sexually averse, which is a good starting point. Some asexuals simply can not have sex, or it repulses them, or they're just not capable. You're apparently not in that category.

From what I've read here, your inability to enjoy sex is very likely not related to your asexuality - they are two completely different things. My wife identifies as asexual, yet she has learned over the years what she likes (and what she doesn't) and she thoroughly (and I mean thoroughly) enjoys sex. It's just getting to it in the first place that's our issue. She has to remember that she likes sex.

But she and I are very physically compatible, and I "work" for her. It's not that I'm great in bed or the world's best lover, it's just that we fit. My ex wife was never satisified with me, never had an orgasm, etc. I don't do anything different now that I did then. And my wife has told me that, at least with her most recent ex before me, she got little out of it, and would be lucky if she got one orgasm.

So unfortunately, you have two things to work on - yourself, first and foremost - you MUST learn about your body and what you like and don't like, and this means you need to practice. Both by yourself (a lot) and with your husband. Your husband is going to have to be patient with you while you figure out what works for you. And your husband is going to have to listen to you.

And secondly, you are going to have to REMEMBER that sex is important to your husband. This is the easiest way to get off track and derail the train. This doesn't mean that you have to get naked every single time he shows interest, but it does mean that, in times like that, your mindset will have to change, and instead of defaulting to dread or anxiety or excuse making, you'll have to assess the situation duly, and jump in.

One issue my wife has not been able to overcome (or quite understand) is that when we have time to ourselves (ie. no kids around at all) this IS the time to get sexy. It's not an expectation, per se, but it's something that happens so rarely it should be taken advantage of, and most "normal" couples do, and jump at the chance. It is instances like this where you must remember, preferably on your own, that sex is important.

Somebody once had a great line here on TAM: "People who like sex make excuses to have it. People who don't like sex make excuses NOT to." They were referring more to LD/HD relationships, but it applies just as well here.

But the most important thing of all that you must remember, is that sex is not really all that complicated or difficult. People tend to easily make it one or the other, or both. It's completely understandable that, for someone like you, it can be daunting. But it's the most natural thing that humans do, and almost instinctual by nature. It is US who complicates it to the levels that we do, where we require online forums to discuss the subject ad nauseum.

So the reality of your situation is that, no, you will not "overcome" your asexuality, any more than someone can overcome homosexuality, or bisexuality.

But I CAN tell you that it all starts with a change, even a slight one, in attitudes towards sex, and only sex. My wife, at some point in her life, realized that she LIKES sex. She likes orgasms. She likes intercourse. It feels good. But for her, it's not about the release she gets from it, and it's not a necessity for her, at all. For us non-asexual people, an orgasm is virtually a necessity. I doubt I could go a week without one. If we can't get it with a partner, we do it ourselves.

Your first step HAS to be to learn to enjoy sex. No, you will never NEED it, or desire it, and it will never be important to you the way it is to your husband, but you have to figure out what works for you, what makes you orgasm, etc. and the rest will fall into place, more or less.

You will still not need sex, or an orgasm, but at least you will lose that dread or anxiety you currently have when it comes to sex. You will know that when it does happen, it will be pleasurable, and that it's okay to have sex, and even fun, even if it takes you actually doing it to realize it!


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
Is there anything you have ever found sexually exciting? Maybe it is worth exploring - try erotic stories, art, movies, romances etc. 

I think that it will be very difficult to make things work if you cannot find anything that sexually interests you. 

You can try having sex just for him - it is even possible that after a little while you will find you enjoy it - but it isn't all that likely. The problem is that this needs to be forever. He will not eventually lose interest (as my wife seems to think I will do), he will always want sex and intimacy - you need to decide if you are up to a lifetime of doing this. 

Just remember that he cannot decide to not want sex, just as you cannot decide that you do want it.


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## bc3543 (Aug 24, 2015)

richardsharpe said:


> Just remember that he cannot decide to not want sex, just as you cannot decide that you do want it.


I'm not sure I totally agree with that. There are examples of women (read some awakening stores on the the marriage bed.com) who found their desire. I think that part of it was a decision and part of it was more of an indirect result of that decision. Regardless, those woman who succeeded in finding their desire are mostly very happy, except in those cases where it took so long that their husbands lost their desire or ability thru the years.

Conversely, there are men who have given up that desire over the years to varying degrees. But in doing so they have lost a part of their soul. They are not happy, even though they might claim to be at some level. Those I've known or read about are bitter and disillusioned, especially about marriage and sex.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Faithful Wife said:


> Asexuality is not a disease or disorder. It is an orientation. And no one but you gets to decide what your orientation is.


There is actually some contention with that statement FW.

I agree that people can self-identify however they want.

However, fundamental lack of sexual attraction can be _triggered_ biologically by disease. And retracted biologically by resolution of said disease.

This does _not_ imply that all asexuality can be attributed to disease, but if I were asexual, I'd want to know if that was the case.

And there has been some contention both with the LGBT community and psychotherapy if it can be considered a sexual orientation.

Again, this doesn't mean that someone cannot self-identify asexual in a similar way as someone can call themselves gay when they're actually bi -- just that there's more debate about it's underlying nature than there is, say, homosexuality as an orientation.

This is evidenced by some asexuality being transitory, and some not being transitory.

I prefer to sidestep the debate and see sexuality as a spectrum. I'm sure I have asexual moments -- I may be a randy horn dog but I don't often have sexual thoughts or attraction when I'm under stress at work. And I think this is normal.

It is common for people to have bisexual tendencies at certain phases of their life, or within certain contexts. Does this make one forever and always bisexual? I don't think so.

And, for me, I think asexuality falls along similar lines. People like to hang identity on their sexual orientation, but I generally don't.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Beauty,
> 
> I want to help you - so I'm going to suggest you two do an exercise that will increase your empathy for each other.
> 
> ...


Epic, MEM.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

marduk said:


> There is actually some contention with that statement FW.
> 
> I agree that people can self-identify however they want.
> 
> ...


I'm aware of the debates.

Doesn't change my opinion at all.

There is a difference between asexuality and sexual dysfunction. Dysfunction can make you feel non-sexual, to be sure. 

CSA and sexual trauma can make you feel that way, too.

But true asexuality (not dysfunction) is typically something the person feels for most of their lives, just as being gay or straight is typically something a person typically feels for most of their lives. A gay or straight person who has a fleeting moment of same sex attraction or curiosity will rarely decide they are bi, but yes, they can. Yet most of us know what our orientation is....and yes it can change, too. Mostly though, we just know. We feel it. It cannot be measured outside of you (other than some brain scans appear to show some differences, otherwise, no).

And even if a self-identified asexual person did find that they had a huge hormonal imbalance that could explain their lack of attraction, if your hormone balance is something unique to you and cannot be reasonably changed (and it usually can't without huge potential risks), then what is the difference? This is still "you", your body and its hormonal profile is "you".

When trans people go through what they have to do to change their hormonal profile, it is a lifelong process. You can't just take some pills and change your profile.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

BadInBed said:


> If you can be troubled to actually do a bit of RESEARCH on the topic of asexuality (say on asexuality.org perhaps?!?), you would find MANY references (even several clinical psychological peer-reviewed papers, dating back as far as Masters and Johnson) on the use of male sex surrogates as a "treatment" for asexuality in women. There is even a Salon article on the topic (not that it specifically applies to the OP, but...)!


So in order to have a better married sex life with her husband, she's supposed to first get "treatment" by having sex with another man? Because he's going to be a sexual expert and teach her how to feel attraction? And if it worked, what is to say that her attraction didn't apply to her husband, but only to the surrogate?

Just because this is something that has been tried by others, doesn't mean this is in anyway a good idea for this woman.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Having said that....I actually think both of them tripping on MDMA a couple of times would do more good to bring both of them into a new place of intimacy. Together. With each other. Without any other naked people in the room.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Faithful Wife said:


> I'm aware of the debates.
> 
> Doesn't change my opinion at all.
> 
> ...


Front page of the asexuality.org website:



> BREAKING! The FDA has just announced its approval of Fliberansin, a drug to treat acquired, generalized hypoactive sexual desire disorder (HSDD) in premenopausal women. We will be releasing a statement on this soon. In the meantime, contact us at [email protected] for any queries


And from wikipedia:



> Identity and relationships[edit]
> See also: Romantic orientation
> Because there is significant variation among people who identify as asexual, asexuality can encompass broad definitions.[17] Researchers generally define asexuality as the lack of sexual attraction or the lack of sexual interest,[4][6][9] but their definitions vary; they may use the term "to refer to individuals with low or absent sexual desire or attractions, low or absent sexual behaviors, exclusively romantic non-sexual partnerships, or a combination of both absent sexual desires and behaviors."[6]
> 
> ...


As well as:



> There is significant debate over whether or not asexuality is a sexual orientation.[8][9] It has been compared and equated with hypoactive sexual desire disorder (HSDD), in that both imply a general lack of sexual attraction to anyone; HSDD has been used to medicalize asexuality, but asexuality is generally not considered a disorder or a sexual dysfunction (such as anorgasmia, anhedonia, etc.), because asexuality does not necessarily define someone as having a medical problem or problems relating to others socially.[12][18][24] Unlike people with HSDD, asexual people normally do not experience "marked distress" and "interpersonal difficulty" concerning feelings about their sexuality, or generally a lack of sexual arousal; asexuality is considered the lack or absence of sexual attraction as a life-enduring characteristic.[4][18] One study found that, compared to HSDD subjects, asexuals reported lower levels of sexual desire, sexual experience, sex-related distress and depressive symptoms.[25] Researchers Richards and Barker report that asexuals do not have disproportionate rates of alexithymia, depression, or personality disorders. [18] Some people may identify as asexual, however, even if their non-sexual state is explained by one or more of the aforementioned disorders.[26]
> 
> Asexuality may be argued as not being a meaningful category to add to the continuum of sexual orientations, and instead argued as the lack of a sexual orientation or sexuality.[8] Other arguments propose that asexuality is the denial of one's natural sexuality...


For me, personally, if you want to label your orientation (or even gender) as asexual, fill your boots.

But I don't consider it an orientation, more a lack thereof; in the way that black is not a color, it is the absence of color (light).


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Having known more than one asexual (not dysfunctional) person, I believe they know themselves and know their orientation, and my opinion is based on what they say about themselves, not what others say about them.

At one time, there was a significant debate about whether gay people were just dysfunctional or mentally disordered as well. But people who were gay knew they were and that is now understood and accepted by most people, even though there are still holdouts who believe they are just evil or dysfunctional and there is no such thing as being a naturally born gay person. 

At some point in the future, this will be the case for asexual people, too. But there will still always be holdouts who just won't accept it. Yet that won't change the reality or experience of the asexual people themselves, other than to keep them surrounded in shame and controversy.

I don't know why you copied all that from wiki but only the "breaking news" part from AVEN when this is also on their front page:

"Unlike celibacy, which is a choice, asexuality is a sexual orientation."

This is their position, and everyone else can debate it if they want, yet it doesn't really matter if others debate it. They know what their reality is.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Perhaps you could offer some link or article to back up what you are saying, since supposedly using a sex surrogate to "treat" asexuality is "a thing"? I did look around and found nothing.

I have no idea why you're being so insulting after only 4 posts here. There is no reason at all for you to question whether any of us actually read her first post or not, that was just mud slinging for no reason. 

On my end, here are some links.

MDMA-Assisted Psychotherapy

George R. Greer, MD | Heffter Research Institute

Why MDMA May One Day Be Used In Couples Therapy

Intimate insight: MDMA changes how people talk about significant others


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

A couple more:

Ecstasy therapy approved for trial in Marin County - San Francisco Chronicle

Ecstasy as Therapy: Have Some of its Negative Effects Been Overblown? | TIME.com


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Faithful Wife said:


> Having known more than one asexual (not dysfunctional) person, I believe they know themselves and know their orientation, and my opinion is based on what they say about themselves, not what others say about them.
> 
> At one time, there was a significant debate about whether gay people were just dysfunctional or mentally disordered as well. But people who were gay knew they were and that is now understood and accepted by most people, even though there are still holdouts who believe they are just evil or dysfunctional and there is no such thing as being a naturally born gay person.
> 
> ...


I just thought it was interesting that a pharmacological agent may be considered by some to help. You seemed to indicate this was generally rejected. 

And the stuff from Wikipedia I thought was interesting, because there are so many complex sub categories that I was unaware of.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

marduk said:


> I just thought it was interesting that a pharmacological agent may be considered by some to help. You seemed to indicate this was generally rejected.


Um...no...I've never said anything about the new drug as related to asexuality. I have said that millions of women would buy it though, in response to john saying there is no market for it.

Some asexual women who are in relationships with sexual men would like to have a drug that helps them "feel it" so that they can have more of the intimacy that their partner wants with less resistance that comes naturally to them for sex.

Just as some naturally LD women would want to take it for the same reasons. Or even a situational LD woman would want to as well. Not all but some would.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

marduk said:


> There is actually some contention with that statement FW.
> 
> I agree that people can self-identify however they want.
> 
> ...


I agree with a lot of this (especially the spectrum aspect). Others will disagree strongly with that, but that's okay, too.

However, asexuality as an orientation is real, imo.

The people I know who identify as asexual all have the same thing in common - never having had a physical or sexual attraction to another person, of either sex, ever.

People who identify as homosexual will tell you same thing - they've always had an attraction to one sex, but not the other.

People who identify as bisexual will tell you the same thing - they've always had an attraction to both sexes.

People who identify as heterosexual will tell you the same thing - they've always had an attraction for the opposite sex.

Often, someone will not fully realize it until later in life, as they've been brought up in a very hetero-desirable society. They may have dated, or even married, someone of the opposite sex, not fully recognizing that whatever attraction they felt for that person was not of the physical/sexual variety. There are many other ways to be attracted to someone, or to love someone. The interest in the same sex as them has been repressed or is latent, for all kinds of reasons.

Asexuality is no different, except that identifying as heterosexual is far more commonplace (especially for a longer period of time). The desire to be with someone, to have a partner, even a spouse, is just as strong as anybody else's.

What we sexual people take for granted is that we KNOW that we're attracted to one gender or the other (or both). We don't just go with what we're "supposed" to do.

We take it for granted because we know, usually from an extremely young age, that we are attracted to one or the other or both. Like most heterosexual people, I never had to question my sexuality. I just knew, right from the age where most people start to experience that interest.

Asexuals don't have this. They go with the flow, really. Their friends start showing interest in the opposite sex, so they join them. It's what's "normal".

It's really only until they get into longer term relationships that they may start to recognize that there's something missing, or "off". My wife has straight-up told me that, from a young age, she didn't understand what all the fuss was about. When all her friends were head over heels about the New Kids on the Block, she just joined in, but didn't feel the same interest (lust?) as they did. When her peers started having sex, or fooling around with boys, she didn't quite understand the excitement about it, yet felt like she had to keep up with them, anyway. She told me she thought she was a late bloomer when it came to interest like that. She still dated and had sex, but when all her friends would giggle and talk about it and compare notes, she felt different. She always figured she'd just grow into it, but she never did.

And in all honesty, she took the (rather common, it seems) route of trying to "fix" herself. The more boyfriends or sex she had, maybe the more she'd like it, or eventually something would click and she'd get to the point where she understood her friends. She still doesn't, and she never will.

Now, luckily, my wife is among those who identify as asexual, yet who still enjoy the physical act of sex. She just doesn't have the drive or urge or need for it, but is also responsive (provided the timing is right...)


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

For me, it's kind of a divide by zero error -- the result is 'Not a Number'.

Or a logical category error.

Maybe I think about it too literally.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Having said that....I actually think both of them tripping on MDMA a couple of times would do more good to bring both of them into a new place of intimacy. Together. With each other. Without any other naked people in the room.


You stop teasing me with stuff I can't get!


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> You stop teasing me with stuff I can't get!


Dude. I waited behind the school for you for 30 minutes!


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

marduk said:


> For me, it's kind of a divide by zero error -- the result is 'Not a Number'.
> 
> Or a logical category error.
> 
> Maybe I think about it too literally.


What other people think about asexual people is irrelevant, IMO.

I'm only interested in what self-identified asexual people have to say about themselves.

Since a sexual person cannot relate to what an asexual person feels, what does it matter what they think or say about them? How about just read what asexual people say themselves and let them tell you what it is like, what it means, and what their orientation is.

Like this one:

You?re about as sexually attractive to me as a turtle: Coming out as asexual in a hypersexual culture - Salon.com

(from the article)

Q.What’s the worst thing about being asexual?

A. For me, the worst thing about being asexual is other people trying to fix me all the time. They develop this completely inappropriate obsession with my sexual and romantic life, which can manifest as anything from aggressively propositioning me for sex to searching for what’s “really” wrong with me through invasive questions. Some of them maintain that these attempted interventions are about my health and happiness, apparently unaware that they’re compromising both by refusing to respect my identity.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Faithful Wife said:


> What other people think about asexual people is irrelevant, IMO.
> 
> I'm only interested in what self-identified asexual people have to say about themselves.
> 
> ...


I don't agree with your initial statement at all. 

I have never been homosexual, yet I am human, and as a human I have a vested interest in understanding my fellow humanity. 

And as I said, I have no issue with anyone self-identifying as anything they want - but I retain the right to consider it, mull it around, and seek to understand it. 

I would never try to fix a person that was happily asexual, just like I would never fix someone who is gay or bi. 

What I am interested in is the nuances and mechanics of the situation - the plights and trials and biology and emotion of it. 

And again, I freely admit that I may be personally assessing it literally, but an orientation is just that - an orientation. Is a lack of orientation an orientation? Or is it no longer in the category of orientation?

I'm specifically fascinated by those that are only interested in Hetero or **** romantic attachments but without a sexual component. This fascinates me because of the very nature of my inability to fully understand it, but yet want to as much as I can, you know?

We are one family of monkeys on a small blue wet rock in space, after all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
I don't think you need to be a member of a group to understand how that group feels - though I agree it helps.

I think what is going on here is not that people want to change asexuals - but they realization of the misery of a marriage between an asexual and a sexual person. I make no attempt to change the orientation of my gay friends, but I would be active in trying to convince them to divorce if they were in a heterosexual marriage.

Heterosexual, homosexual, asexual, kinky, vanilla, high drive, low drive, all are absolutely fine. It is incompatibility that is the problem. 

Few people are 100% of any of these things so the question is whether the couple can each comfortably adjust enough to find common ground. Sometimes they can, and sometimes they can't. 





Faithful Wife said:


> What other people think about asexual people is irrelevant, IMO.
> 
> I'm only interested in what self-identified asexual people have to say about themselves.
> 
> ...


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> I think what is going on here is not that people want to change asexuals - but they realization of the misery of a marriage between an asexual and a sexual person.


I'm not saying people at TAM are trying to change asexuals...I'm saying that asexuals themselves report that people are always trying to change them.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Faithful Wife said:


> I'm not saying people at TAM are trying to change asexuals...I'm saying that asexuals themselves report that people are always trying to change them.


100% agree. I'm especially fussed by the rejection I've heard of asexuals by the LGBT community. 

Maybe because it looks like low drive, which many of us have felt?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

marduk said:


> And as I said, I have no issue with anyone self-identifying as anything they want - but I retain the right to consider it, mull it around, and seek to understand it.


If you want to understand it, ask people who are asexual about their experience. No one else understands what it is like. There are lots of people writing about their own experience at the AVEN forum.

Just know that whether you understand it, consider it or mull it around, changes nothing for the people who are actually asexual. So yes as for a personal interest, have at it. Just try to realize that reading the personal testimonies of asexual people is the only reliable source of information on what it is like, what it means, how it feels, and WHY it is indeed an orientation. So no matter what you conclude upon your consideration, nothing is any different other than you have made a conclusion for yourself...yet if your conclusion doesn't line up with their actual experiences, then you are simply making a judgment.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

I know of two. Well, three if you count a guys wife I know who claims to be, but I think it's more likely that she just isn't into her husband any more. 

I don't know the other two super well, except that they both self identify as both hetero and asexual. Meaning they are both in LTRs in a pretty standard way, but that they can both take or leave sex in general. 

I think it's a fascinating question. And gives a lot of insights into human sexuality. For them, the intimate connection and partnership seems important, they just don't really seek it. Even though it's pleasurable. 

And this for me raises an interesting point: we are hard wired to seek pleasure. Many asexuals get pleasure out of sex, and aren't opposed to it, yet don't seek it either. 

And this I don't quite grok.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

There are pleasures besides sex to seek.

I'm sure you don't grok what it is like to be gay, either but...that's because you are straight. I can't grok what it would be like to be straight, never have been able to. But when you try to kiss a straight girl, you find out pretty quick they aren't "faking it". 

It doesn't help us have much empathy to just intellectually understand someone's orientation, IMO. What helps us have empathy is acceptance and not to analyze beyond the surface level. The rest is just "trying to find out what makes someone tick" even though, without the same orientation, you simply can't.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Faithful Wife said:


> There are pleasures besides sex to seek.
> 
> I'm sure you don't grok what it is like to be gay, either but...that's because you are straight. I can't grok what it would be like to be straight, never have been able to. But when you try to kiss a straight girl, you find out pretty quick they aren't "faking it".
> 
> It doesn't help us have much empathy to just intellectually understand someone's orientation, IMO. What helps us have empathy is acceptance and not to analyze beyond the surface level. The rest is just "trying to find out what makes someone tick" even though, without the same orientation, you simply can't.


I totally get what you're saying but that wasn't quite what I was getting at. I can actually get the appeal of being gay, I can see guys as attractive, and can see the appeal. I think guys are pretty awesome. I just don't want to do them. But I think I get it at some level.

What I mean is somewhat deeper.

There's this operant conditioning thing that seems to be baked into how our neural topology works. As in, if activity A yields reward B, then the network that gets fired to yield activity A gets strengthened. 

In other words, if we get a reward, we bias the activity that got us rewarded. I think this is a strong component in sexual attraction... If I do X, I get sex. So I'll go ahead and do X a lot. 

But this doesn't seem to happen the same way for asexual people, regardless of of being aromantic, biromantic, heteroromantic, non-romantic, etc.

Even though they get pleasure out of sex, they don't seek it. It's like getting pleasure from chocolate or watermelon or a juicy steak, and even when you're presented with the object that would give you pleasure, it doesn't stimulate a response.

Do you know what I mean? I wonder if there are non-sexual things that don't trigger a stimulus response as well.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

marduk said:


> Even though they get pleasure out of sex, they don't seek it. It's like getting pleasure from chocolate or watermelon or a juicy steak, and even when you're presented with the object that would give you pleasure, it doesn't stimulate a response.
> 
> Do you know what I mean? I wonder if there are non-sexual things that don't trigger a stimulus response as well.


I don't think we have any way of knowing what is "natural" for the human animal. We have no laboratory for that. So the pleasure seeking stuff you are talking about, to me I don't see how we can know what our ancestors found as pleasurable (and then sought after it) compared to the sexualized society we live in today. 

So what you are getting at, to me, just shows variation, which is normal and happens in nature. There are parts of nature that will just be variant, in numerous ways. Since we know that a very small population are truly asexual (not dysfunctional), it seems easy to attribute this to a natural variation.

There are many pleasurable things (that are also healthy) that I don't seek. We seek different things and different types of pleasure. That variation is necessary, interesting, and provides a valuable contrast.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Faithful Wife said:


> I don't think we have any way of knowing what is "natural" for the human animal. We have no laboratory for that. So the pleasure seeking stuff you are talking about, to me I don't see how we can know what our ancestors found as pleasurable (and then sought after it) compared to the sexualized society we live in today.


I disagree, and there are several fields of science that by their existance disagree as well.

Cultural anthropology, evolutionary biology, neurobiology to name a few. Even ones that I've been involved in, such as AI or genetics. All based on the concept of feedback loops.



> So what you are getting at, to me, just shows variation, which is normal and happens in nature. There are parts of nature that will just be variant, in numerous ways. Since we know that a very small population are truly asexual (not dysfunctional), it seems easy to attribute this to a natural variation.


Totally agree. Variations are interesting though, no? 


> There are many pleasurable things (that are also healthy) that I don't seek. We seek different things and different types of pleasure. That variation is necessary, interesting, and provides a valuable contrast.


Sure. But there are also pleasurable things we seek, even when we don't want to. I cannot, for example, have chocolate in the house without it being eaten by my wife. 

She literally cannot not eat it.

Nachos are my nemesis.

I mean, pleasure-seeking is the basis of our society. Why is that different for asexuals? Or is it that way for asexuals, but only with sex?

Fascinating.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

You like to debate stuff. I get you.

This one just doesn't give me any pleasure to debate...so I'll leave it to you and seek a different debate.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Faithful Wife said:


> You like to debate stuff. I get you.
> 
> This one just doesn't give me any pleasure to debate...so I'll leave it to you and seek a different debate.


See!!!


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> What other people think about asexual people is irrelevant, IMO.
> 
> I'm only interested in what self-identified asexual people have to say about themselves.
> 
> ...


I've been reading this thread out of sheer interest/curiosity. The article you linked was extremely informative but man, I think my head is going to explode from the huge amount of terminology and variance within the asexual experience. I definitely can't wrap my head around it entirely. 

I cannot imagine how a HD or even "normal" drive (maybe mid drive is a better term) person and an asexual person could manage a longterm relationship?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

kag123 said:


> I cannot imagine how a HD or even "normal" drive (maybe mid drive is a better term) person and an asexual person could manage a longterm relationship?


You can read a lot of stories about asexuals and sexuals in relationships here:

Asexual Relationships - Asexual Visibility and Education Network

Their forum has several other sections too, which are fascinating, sometimes wonderful, sometimes sad. 

I hope the OP is still reading and I also hope she signed up over there.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Um...yes marduk...that's why I worded it that way. See what I did there? I am "seeking" a "more pleasurable" debate, because "science".


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

marduk said:


> I totally get what you're saying but that wasn't quite what I was getting at. I can actually get the appeal of being gay, I can see guys as attractive, and can see the appeal. I think guys are pretty awesome. I just don't want to do them. But I think I get it at some level.
> 
> What I mean is somewhat deeper.
> 
> ...


I think the easiest way to describe this (as a non-asexual, that is) is like this:

Clearly homosexual sex is fun, because homosexual people do it. For those of us who are not in the least homophobic, and identify as heterosexual, we have no interest in homosexual sex, even if it's right in front of us. Why? Because we aren't sexually attracted to that gender. So try having no attraction to either gender. Same diff, in my opinion.

I, for example, am not grossed out by homosexual sex. But I do know that I like women and am attracted to them. I am not attracted to men. Theoretically, I could have homosexual sex and have the same (or similar) physical/sexual response (ie. erection, orgasm). But what would be missing is the attraction, as well as the emotional feelings present. But it doesn't mean that I couldn't achieve the physical pleasure.

So if you identify as heterosexual, with not even a hint of curiosity the other way, and if you had no hang-ups whatsoever, then theoretically it wouldn't matter what gender is giving you a handjob or a blowjob. Physically it feels the same, with the same result at the end. What prevents heterosexuals from engaging in this is that we have hang-ups, or otherwise see sex as something we do with people we have an attraction to. In other words, it's purely mental.

I imagine that this is how asexuals who are not averse to sex see things. The physical aspect of sex is pleasurable and fun. But they would look at me the same way I look at a man - no desire to get sexual with them. But remove the mental aspect of sex, leave it at only physical (ie. that feels good), and there you have it.

It's probably a lot less complex than you're making it out to be.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

OK @alexm, but keep it purely at the 'physically feels good' level.

This should, theoretically, trigger an attraction response. Not an "I'm attracted to you" response, but a biological attraction response -- the being _should in general_ move towards such a thing. The same kinda thing that gets people hooked on heroin; there's no high quite like it. So they go back to it.

But this doesn't happen.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

beautymadness23 said:


> Hello all. This is a follow up from my last post about not knowing how to be erotic. I have discovered I'm asexual.
> 
> I was reading an article last night and it was like a lighbulb going off. Like an epiphany. It was suddenly all so clear. It was going over the signs of asexuality. I fit 90% of them.
> 
> ...


Your husband might have to learn how to cope with his own needs. (Yes I do.)

Also you need a proper evaluation by a qualified practitioner to determine if you are asexual or not.

I hope you both have a long and happy marriage. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

beautymadness23 said:


> I'm honestly about to cry because I can't believe this has happened. My 5 month marriage could be in the brink of divorce already. We were just arguing about it....he agreed that divorce or open marriage are the only options.
> 
> Now appeasing him or giving in, trying to find a way to capture some semblance of sexy, will not work. My husband does not care about just having his physical needs met and getting it off. He needs someone who is sensual by nature. It has to feel spontaneous and natural for him, not forced. Any compromise in that area will never work.
> 
> I am so desperate for someone to give me hope here.


Thanks Beauty for giving me a glimpse of what my wife is going through. I know without a doubt that my wife is Asexual. 

1) She was still a virgin at 25
2)She never masturbated, even now at 48, it does nothing for her.
3) She was a cheerleader in HS, pretty, and did go on dates. It never got past a third date.
4) She thinks porn is comedy and does nothing for her
5) Doesn't get wet. Never has.
6)She never cared for foreplay. All the foreplay in the world never increased desire.
7)She just wanted sexhaser with.
8) Affection was forced
9)Never cared to cuddle
10) She is happy/content with a platonic marriage
10)She feels helpless in trying to fix it. 



I believe there are more Asexual people than what any study's reveals. It's just something people never admit too. Just a guess, but I think most Asexual women hang out with gay men? I do have a gay friend and he has many female friends who he says never have a boyfriend. I see them on Facebook and they are hot! I am guessing they're Asexual. I see it as a gay man who becomes a priest or a man who absorbs himself in work, just to say he is too busy for a relationship. Women could do the same. They focus on work to avoid relationships and sex.

Beauty-

After 23 years, I have no idea how my wife and I have lasted this long. Maybe we connected in other areas. For starters, If there was ANYTHING my wife could do to fix this, it would be many words of affirmation.

Do you enjoy kissing/affection?

If my wife could of initiated kissing and affection.

You husband has to know you are taking steps to fix it and you are trying.

Your husband may feel so undesired and may feel it is all him. You have to articulate that it's not him.


I still need to continue reading your past your post above.

Thanks again for sharing.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

@Trickster did you know this going into your marriage?


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

beautymadness23 said:


> Badinbed...to answer your question, our young son is the only one who lives with us. We just moved out of our home state, the 3 of us. The girls live back home with their mom. We talk on the phone and are going to fly them down here, but that's about it. However, we are a happily blended family. Our son loves his sisters and the girls view me as a motherly figure. It's not always easy, but I'm thankful.
> 
> Perhaps I do need to go into a doctor or therapist. I will talk to husband about that to see if finances allow. I'm a stay at home mom, be works. But he feels confident and that I am assxual, and doesn't think I need some kind of diagnosis. He believes its the truth. But a dr could maybe check hirmine levels a d a therapist would at least provide someone to talk to. I feel I have no one to talk to about this. So few people identify with this and many people don't even think it's really and legitimate.
> 
> ...



I can SOOOO relaterelate. I always knew my wife wasn't all that sexual. I just thougt it was inexperience. I thought if I was patient, it would improve. I ve spent 23 years trying and it hasn't changed. I accepted the platonic part of our relationship because that was the part missing from pervious relationships. Before her, the women, other than sex, didn't even want to go out with me on a date. I don't think they even liked me. They just liked the sex. My wife was my first real gf. That's why I stayed so long.


Open marriage? OMG! All I will say is that it's killing me inside and I wish it never came to that. I don't like the man I am becoming and I feel so hurt. I think my wife feels hurt as well.

Wish I had something positive to say.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
This is the big problem. Many people have made the same mistake- thinking that things will improve. It really was only very recently that I completely understood how much sex drives vary between people. Like Trickster I just assumed things would get better with time, I was too young and too inexperienced to realize that my wife had far below average interest in sex. 



Trickster said:


> I can SOOOO relaterelate. I always knew my wife wasn't all that sexual. I just thougt it was inexperience. I thought if I was patient, it would improve. I ve spent 23 years trying and it hasn't changed. I accepted the platonic part of our relationship because that was the part missing from pervious relationships. Before her, the women, other than sex, didn't even want to go out with me on a date. I don't think they even liked me. They just liked the sex. My wife was my first real gf. That's why I stayed so long.
> 
> snip
> .


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

marduk said:


> @Trickster did you know this going into your marriage?


Yes, my wife never did the bait and switch. I convinced myself sex wasn't important. It just very slowly ate away at me until I reached my breaking point. All I wanted was for my wife to be aware to how the sexlessness was affecting me and to make an effort to do something about it. Anything. I blame myself for sticking around so long. I think my wife is very similar to the OP, as far as the asexuality. I do admire the OP because she realizes it's her issue and she has work to do. The first step toward any change is awareness. She did that part. She, I think, has accepted it, and knows she has to take action. I think they will be OK.


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

Trickster said:


> Yes, my wife never did the bait and switch. I convinced myself sex wasn't important. It just very slowly ate away at me until I reached my breaking point. All I wanted was for my wife to be aware to how the sexlessness was affecting me and to make an effort to do something about it. Anything. I blame myself for sticking around so long. I think my wife is very similar to the OP, as far as the asexuality. I do admire the OP because she realizes it's her issue and she has work to do. The first step toward any change is awareness. She did that part. She, I think, has accepted it, and knows she has to take action. I think they will be OK.



I'm hoping so much the same for mine.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

MattMatt said:


> Also you need a proper evaluation by a qualified practitioner to determine if you are asexual or not.


I think the wording should be a little different with this.

As this is an orientation, it's not up to somebody else (qualified or not) to tell someone what their orientation is. You can't walk into a Dr's office and say "Doc, am I gay?" (or bisexual, or asexual)

A better way to put this is to rule out things like hormonal imbalance or other physical issues, or from a psychological pov, to rule out sexual repression or some other mental block.

As I've said from the beginning (and it appears OP has bailed), she doesn't seem to have an aversion to sex, just no interest in it.

There ARE people like my wife who identify as asexual, yet enjoy sex.

That has nothing to do with ones orientation or drive (whether low or high). OP does not sound averse to sex - she just needs to learn how to enjoy it first. The interest will never come, if she is indeed asexual, but she really, really needs to figure out what SHE likes, and go from there. That's really the only way her marriage has any chance, IMO.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

after reading this thread I say stick a fork in it. Its done.

the difference is to big to over come.


good luck.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> I'm not saying people at TAM are trying to change asexuals...I'm saying that asexuals themselves report that people are always trying to change them.



Perhaps if they honestly represented themselves up front there wouldn't be as much of an issue. 

It's not orientation that's the issue but attitude toward having ones cake and eating it too.


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

But sometimes they don't know.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

john117 said:


> Perhaps if they honestly represented themselves up front there wouldn't be as much of an issue.
> 
> It's not orientation that's the issue *but attitude toward having ones cake and eating it too*.


I agree about honest representation. Therefore, education and self-awareness should be sought after by anyone considering partnering with anyone. 

Most new couples and most young people truly don't understand what a big deal sex can be in relationships. If we can reach them early and explain these issues to them plainly, we can perhaps help the next generation become self-aware faster.

First we have to complete the process of taking shame away in the big picture, for everyone. It is only now getting easy to be out and gay. That's speaking generally of course, because there are still many people who don't feel safe coming out, but thankfully most gay people can.

It is only now possible to even HEAR of asexuality, so that if it applies to you, you might read more and become self aware. Before the internet, those who were asexual likely never spoke about their lack of sexual attraction to a soul and just went forward into relationships, trying to ignore it...or just stayed celibate and single forever, thus appearing to be an eccentric oddball.

As we keep turning this tide, a person will eventually be able to make the celibate choice and just say "I'm asexual", and people will be likely to accept them. 

I don't know any LD or asexual person who feels they want their cake and eat it, too. This is something that is said by the person who feels jilted, it is not something said by the LD. LD's are typically also unhappy in mismatched relationships. Whether they are naturally LD or situationally LD or asexual, makes a difference in how they relate to their HD spouse.

Sure, a resentful, angry or bitter situationally LD spouse may act indignant toward their HD. And may find themselves HD for someone else. Yet they may not ever just face this and do the right thing in their relationship. But that person is just a crappy partner, this does not rise out of being LD. It usually rises out of the inability to deal with resentment properly.

Most stories we hear around here are about naturally LD partners. That's why 180's and alpha-bro-ha tricks don't cause any lasting changes in female LD's, and lingerie and seduction techniques don't cause any lasting changes in male LD's. In those cases, there is not a have cake and eat it too feeling. Usually in those cases, the HD has talked to the LD at length about the problems, and the LD is baffled and sorry and sad just like the HD. There is still a lot of lack of self-awareness in those cases, but it is usually on both sides.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Most hardcore LD's want the benefits of marriage without the "obligations". That's cake eating 101...

It's just a label tho.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

john117 said:


> Most hardcore LD's want the benefits of marriage without the "obligations". That's cake eating 101...
> 
> It's just a label tho.


This is your projection. You are making a generalization that is unfair and is totally biased.

LD's are of different types.

If you want, name someone other than your own wife as an example of a hardcore LD who wants to cake eat. I'm sure no matter who you could point out, there will be accompanying bitterness, resentment, lack of self-awareness, and other big relationship issues.

There are no hardcore LD's just prancing past their spouse saying "nyah nyah, I get what I want but you don't get what YOU want!"

Most LD's are just as UNHAPPY as the HD and don't see having sex as something they should "give" to anyone. If they don't want to have sex with their spouse or if they have no attraction to them, they are typically UNHAPPY about this situation as well. They aren't smug about it.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

(Interesting side note...in the asexual community, they talk about how they like eating cake more than they like having sex...so cake is actually their little inside joke and symbol for the community). Here's a quote from Asexuality 101:

Q. I looked up asexuality and I noticed a bunch of cake references. Why is that? Is this some sort of asexual symbol?

A. Cake became a symbol of the asexual community after the birth of the AVEN. It began as a small-scale Internet meme when one AVEN user wrote in the forums “What’s better than sex?” to which someone replied “Cake!” Everyone seemed to agree with that, and thus, cake became one of the symbols of the asexual community.

It was later used in metaphors to explain asexuality to other people. The cake metaphor most used is a comparison between cake and sex: almost everyone likes cake, but some people just don’t. The same goes for sex – neither cake nor sex are loved by everyone.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I don't disagree about the unhappiness part for LD's but that's not the issue.

The issue is that a marriage has obligations and responsibilities and no anoint of projection happy FW rhetoric can change the fact that LD's at the end of the day pick and choose what parts of the marriage they participate in.

Happy or unhappy is the attitude - go by the results. I'm unhappy that I have to wake up and go to work on the morning or mow the yard. But I do it. Obligation trumps happiness. 

If LD's are unhappy they are because they caused a good part of it by not being honest up front.


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## NotEasy (Apr 19, 2015)

john117 said:


> I don't disagree about the unhappiness part for LD's but that's not the issue.
> 
> The issue is that a marriage has obligations and responsibilities and no anoint of projection happy FW rhetoric can change the fact that LD's at the end of the day pick and choose what parts of the marriage they participate in.


Many people enter into marriage without having these obligations and responsibilities explained to them. I think some, especially asexuals, may not understand the significance of denying sex. I am not excusing them, merely trying to understand them.



john117 said:


> Happy or unhappy is the attitude - go by the results. I'm unhappy that I have to wake up and go to work on the morning or mow the yard. But I do it. Obligation trumps happiness.
> 
> If LD's are unhappy they are because they caused a good part of it by not being honest up front.


Again, I think, the OP was not dishonest up front, rather they were ignorant. It is only now that their is a self diagnosis.
Those who seek to close off an active, enthusiastic, mutually enjoyable sex life after years of marriage would probably not fit this case. The early years of marriage should surely have shown them sex was important. I think most/many LD are like this. But I guess again many were honest up front, then changed years later.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Ignorant? So all the sexualization on media, every day life, etc, high school sex ed even, it's all falling on deaf ears? Parental or familial role models? Friends? Coworkers?

Ignorant is when one does not know what they're getting into because they never had it explained to them or experienced it. Take some college majors for example. To a humanities major architecture or engineering are just different courses. To those who survived it it's not. So unless mom is an architect you pretty much don't know what you're getting into.

This isn't the same. Unless someone is from a repressed culture they have seen TV and HBO and all that. They know. And either they're honest or play along for a while then "change" or they ignore it willfully and hope for the best.

I don't expect self awareness of ones sexuality down to knowing they're comfortable with 15 vs 7 times a month. But I do expect them to know they're comfortable with 15 times a month vs 15 times a year.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

john117 said:


> I don't disagree about the unhappiness part for LD's but that's not the issue.
> 
> The issue is that a marriage has obligations and responsibilities and no anoint of projection happy FW rhetoric can change the fact that LD's at the end of the day pick and choose what parts of the marriage they participate in.
> 
> ...


Name a specific person and then we can sort out just how honest and good of a person the HD is in that case, john.

No one is in a bad marriage all by themselves.

I have never heard of any case at TAM or elsewhere where all the blame lands on the LD and they are simply evil and/or stupid, as you claim.

Including yours.


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

john117 said:


> I don't disagree about the unhappiness part for LD's but that's not the issue.
> 
> The issue is that a marriage has obligations and responsibilities and no anoint of projection happy FW rhetoric can change the fact that LD's at the end of the day pick and choose what parts of the marriage they participate in.
> 
> ...


Insightful, John. The 'picking and choosing' aspect really hit home for me.

I've never thought about it that way.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Faithful Wife said:


> Name a specific person and then we can sort out just how honest and good of a person the HD is in that case, john.
> 
> No one is in a bad marriage all by themselves.
> 
> ...


I think you're both right.

The hardest lies of all I think, are the lies we tell ourselves. And we believe. 

Or at least try to.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

john117 said:


> Ignorant is when one does not know what they're getting into because they never had it explained to them or experienced it.


And what person ANYWHERE was ever told directly what they were getting into with marriage and had it explained to them in a way they could understand? What young person knows what it means to be married for 10 years and have 3 kids? Even if it IS explained to them, how would they understand this? 

We get it john, you will simply always blame the LD, because it can't possibly be true that you share any of that blame in your marriage.

But you do. You just don't care to see it. You hide behind your own ignorance and try to intellectualize it.

There are no two marriages the same, yet you will paint them all with the brush of your own marriage. Your lack of empathy is alarming.

Oh I know....I know...you will come back with a list of why nothing in your own marriage is your fault.

This is the problem that some HD's share with you.

Thankfully though, many HD's actually do understand their part in things and don't have to put all the blame on the LD and be bitter forever more. I'm sad for you, but you've chosen your fate.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
The problem is that both should be enjoying sex - favors are fine, but most sex should be mutual. The root problem is that many LDs can't enjoy sex so it becomes a chore. 



john117 said:


> Most hardcore LD's want the benefits of marriage without the "obligations". That's cake eating 101...
> 
> It's just a label tho.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

I agree FW but to be fair to John, the few ld/hd marriages I've been close to with friends or family... There's usually been this tipping point where the ld partner realizes that having sex with their partner a handful of times a year is probably an unreasonable request. 

And when things go well, what I've seen is an admission that it is unreasonable and honesty about what to do about that. It may be working on resentments, turn offs, or just a blanket admission that they aren't into sex - and then a loving way as a couple on how to bridge that gap.

That bridge might be negotiating sex frequency, negotiating alternate means for sexual satisfaction, or even allowing condoned external sexual relationships. All kinds of things.

But when I've seen it go badly, and even been inside of it going badly, has been when the ld partner wants to make it reasonable to have very little or no sex. I think it's a turning away from your partners reality, and a projection of their unmet needs onto themselves. Which creates bitterness and a chasm between the two.

I've even seen one situation close up with some friends where the wife wanted everyone to chime in one night that after you have kids, having sex once or twice a year is normal and reasonable and her husband should be happy with that. And what I saw behind he scenes was a bunch of her friends (including my wife) telling her that it was unreasonable and kind of sad. And this particular wife broke down and cried and said she knew that but couldn't admit it to her husband because she was afraid - of not being enough, of being broken, of being dumped... All kinds of things. 

But she simultaneously couldn't face that or face having sex with her husband.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
I think there is a lot of range in how LDs feel. I think the root cause is that they don't want sex (even if they enjoy it when it happens).

It is odd though. At least in the case of my wife, she is willing to have sex if she thinks its necessary. She never missed having sex at appropriate times when she wanted to get pregnant. When she got the (correct) idea that I was about to leave over the lack of sex, we had frequent enthusiastic sex for a few months, then she tapered it off. When I confronted here about it, it got good again for a few months then tapered off.

I've gotten to the point where I wonder if my birthday BJ (the only one I get) is just easier for her than going shopping.

Her behavior suggests that sex is something she can do any time if she has a reason to, but that she puts no value on my enjoyment. 

That is probably completely unfair of me, but it does fit the data rather well. 







Faithful Wife said:


> This is your projection. You are making a generalization that is unfair and is totally biased.
> 
> LD's are of different types.
> 
> ...


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
there is a special sort of ignorance about sexuality in some people. There are people (my wife included) who believe that sexualization in media is all fake. That *real* people don't have sex frequently, that is it not important. That the wild passionate sex suggested in movies is no more real than comic books. 

I'm convinced she got married believing that sex was something couples did occasionally - and that it would fade away over time, leaving us to enjoy romantic sunsets, candle-lit dinners and kissing.

I was also extremely ignorant. I thought that my (then) girlfriend's reluctance to have sex was normal in women. That once we were married and she became comfortable with me we would drift into a normal sex life. I had no idea that women differed significantly in their level of interest in sex.

We both expected things to improve with time - its just our idea of "improve" were opposite. 





john117 said:


> Ignorant? So all the sexualization on media, every day life, etc, high school sex ed even, it's all falling on deaf ears? Parental or familial role models? Friends? Coworkers?
> 
> Ignorant is when one does not know what they're getting into because they never had it explained to them or experienced it. Take some college majors for example. To a humanities major architecture or engineering are just different courses. To those who survived it it's not. So unless mom is an architect you pretty much don't know what you're getting into.
> 
> ...


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
if the concept of varying interest in sex were taught, there would be a lot fewer unhappy people out there .

Unfortunately most people learn about this after years in a marriage, often when it is extremely difficult emotionally to divorce.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> That is probably completely unfair of me, but it does fit the data rather well.


What "data"?


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## NotEasy (Apr 19, 2015)

john117 said:


> Ignorant? So all the sexualization on media, every day life, etc, high school sex ed even, it's all falling on deaf ears? Parental or familial role models? Friends? Coworkers?
> 
> Ignorant is when one does not know what they're getting into because they never had it explained to them or experienced it. Take some college majors for example. To a humanities major architecture or engineering are just different courses. To those who survived it it's not. So unless mom is an architect you pretty much don't know what you're getting into.
> 
> ...


I am not saying they are ignorant about how sex happens or that people like it.

Rather they are ignorant about how much people like/need it, and about the 15 times a month vs 15 times a year measure.

Watching the media doesn't show anything about frequency, unless you are watching porn. 
Similarly parents model love and commitment. I know they had sex given I exist. Dad said sex is important. But I don't know how often they do it.

And I repeat, I am not trying to excuse anyone, merely suggesting there may be other explanations than 100% dishonesty.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

marduk said:


> I agree FW but to be fair to John, the few ld/hd marriages I've been close to with friends or family... There's usually been this tipping point where the ld partner realizes that having sex with their partner a handful of times a year is probably an unreasonable request.
> 
> And when things go well, what I've seen is an admission that it is unreasonable and honesty about what to do about that. It may be working on resentments, turn offs, or just a blanket admission that they aren't into sex - and then a loving way as a couple on how to bridge that gap.


Most of the cases I have known up close and personal have been HD wives with LD men. The story goes much differently in these cases, and no one here seems to meld these stories in with the LD wives cases.

I'm sorry but almost anyone who is IN this situation simply cannot see others in it without projecting THEIR issues upon other situations.

Since I am not in this position, when I read these stories I don't see what you guys see. I'm reading various LD wives right here at TAM telling you guys how they feel, and yet you will still just hold on to what you THINK they feel anyway.

The personal cases you know of notwithstanding, to try to make any general across the board statements about WHY this happens is doing nothing to help anyone and is not treating people like individuals. You guys just can't seem to see the grouping generalized projections you are putting on these marriages, because it touches too close to home for you.

But I get it. That's a major running mindset at TAM. That's why the LD people don't want to post here. They are met with an angry mob who blames their marriages on their spouse and will blame it on a stranger LD posting here, too.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

the pattern of when she will and will not have sex. 

I think the attempt to get pregnant was the most telling. She was never too tired, too busy or anything else to have sex at the times when she was likely to get pregnant. Sex happened then and only then.

The birthday BJ is strangely similar. She has decided long in advance that is what she is going to do. So she does - again never too tired. (as she claims to be almost any time I ask for sex) .In on way I really appreciate it, but another way of looking at it is that she has sex when she feels like it, and my interest / desire is just not important. 

It all fits the pattern that she doesn't desire sex, but that it isn't much effort for her to do it - I'm just not worth the effort to her. 





Faithful Wife said:


> What "data"?


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## NotEasy (Apr 19, 2015)

To give an example of the sort of ignorance I am talking about, I did not drive or own a car before we were married. I survived perfectly with just a bicycle for around town and a motorbike for longer trips. I knew about cars and saw many ads on TV for them. I thought they were expensive and un-necessary. The reason there were ads on TV was so that car companies could make money, not as a vital community service to me. And I still think car races are not 'manly', the fact your car goes faster is more to do with you bank balance than your manliness.

I recognised that I held a different view to many others, but honestly I can't be sure what their view is and how vital cars are to them. To me many car lovers still seem weird. Sometimes it seems to me that their love of their car and it's brand are construct of the media. So I remain somewhat ignorant of the importance of cars to others.


Then came marriage, rapid negotiation with my wife, and we now have two cars.


I think asexuals (and maybe a some LD) are similarly ignorant of the importance of sex to others. They know what sex is, but think it is exaggerated by the media.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

It's not an issue of assigning blame - it's an issue of assigning responsibility. Decades ago I learned the term "cafeteria religion" where one picks what they want and ignores the rest. "Cafeteria marriages" are the same.

I don't expect full buy-in but I don't expect the litany of frustrated TAM HD's either. 

When I was 10 I knew the birds and the bees - and we were not Sodoma and Gomorrah either - and certainly no SLA's but I knew the difference between a wife and a mistress and that told me the rest.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

I think you're right FW that I'm making an implicit assumption that the experience (Ld or hd) is analogous for each of the genders. 

I had assumed that what I would hear from a ld wife would be similar for a ld husband. Or an hd wife vs an hd husband. 

I've only seen one ld husband and he wouldn't talk about it. So I guess I don't know. 

How is it different?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> (Interesting side note...in the asexual community, they talk about how they like eating cake more than they like having sex...so cake is actually their little inside joke and symbol for the community). Here's a quote from Asexuality 101:
> 
> Q. I looked up asexuality and I noticed a bunch of cake references. Why is that? Is this some sort of asexual symbol?
> 
> ...



IDK... My chocolate cake with chocolate frosting is pretty damn orgasmic.... If I had to choice between never having chocolate cake again or never having sex again, I'd have to think pretty hard. A Sophie's Choice of a question.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

john117 said:


> When I was 10 I knew the birds and the bees - and we were not Sodoma and Gomorrah either - and certainly no SLA's but I knew the difference between a wife and a mistress and that told me the rest.


:lol:

Gee John...as usual, you are enlightened about everything, never make any mistakes, and by the age of 10 you knew everything you needed to know about sex and marriage. Strange that you don't seem to understand anything at all about the LD side of things...so you just project what you believe about them upon them and then assign them all the blame for being evil or stupid.

Yet....how could you possible know what it is like to be an LD wife?

Oh that's right, you can't.

Yet you claim you know all of their reasons and motivations.

Sorry john....you are not able to do this no matter how hard you try, you will never be able to walk in the shoes of an LD wife, therefore you cannot say how they feel or why they do what they do, try as you might to project.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

marduk said:


> I think you're right FW that I'm making an implicit assumption that the experience (Ld or hd) is analogous for each of the genders.
> 
> I had assumed that what I would hear from a ld wife would be similar for a ld husband. Or an hd wife vs an hd husband.
> 
> ...


Well for instance, I know one mom whose husband works full time, brings in a good salary, she also works from home about half time and brings in decent money. They have one kid.

So...do you think she sits around whining about how "she goes to work so he should be the one putting out?" Nope. He's the one going to work AND not putting out.

Do you think she talks about sex like it should be his "obligation" to service her?

No, she doesn't. Because he's the main bread winner even though she has an income, too.

That's why discussions about obligations and "cake and eat it too" are purely projections, things only said by the HD in situations where they feel jilted.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Faithful Wife said:


> Well for instance, I know one mom whose husband works full time, brings in a good salary, she also works from home about half time and brings in decent money. They have one kid.
> 
> So...do you think she sits around whining about how "she goes to work so he should be the one putting out?" Nope. He's the one going to work AND not putting out.
> 
> ...


What does she do? How does she feel?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

marduk said:


> What does she do? How does she feel?


She is one of the quotes in this blog post of mine:

Sexy+Positive Blog: Survey Respondents Describe How Much Sexlessness Sucks

"Female, 46: Being sexless feels energy draining. I feel angry, disappointed, weird, blamed, unfeminine. I feel hurt to my core as if I am untouchable. I feel as though it affects every aspect of my life, as if I am not a complete person without an avenue to express my sexuality."

She has finally just had to accept that he is naturally LD, always has been, always will be, there is nothing she can do to change him. She's just waiting until her kid is older and then she's going to leave him. He seems to be aware that this is her plan and does nothing to change it. He doesn't know why he is LD...it sounds like a combination of low T, PE, being overweight, and being body conscious and unsure of his abilities.

Not going to change without a complete overhaul of himself, and he isn't willing to do that, so she's stuck in sexless hell until she leaves him.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Faithful Wife said:


> She is one of the quotes in this blog post of mine:
> 
> Sexy+Positive Blog: Survey Respondents Describe How Much Sexlessness Sucks
> 
> ...


That sucks. 

I can tell you in marriage #1 I could have written those exact same words. 

And seeing guys like that really make me angry. I know I shouldn't, but I do. It's frustrating. 

Because it's so easy to fix (at least the overweight and image issues) usually and the rewards and side benefits are so huge. 

Guys like that I don't think love their spouses more than they love themselves. Or maybe hate themselves, I dunno. 

That really sucks for your friend. I honestly wish I could help.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

marduk said:


> Guys like that I don't think love their spouses more than they love themselves. Or maybe hate themselves, I dunno.


People get to be who they are. We can't force self-improvement upon anyone. What we CAN do is decide for ourselves if we want to stay or leave. It really would help every HD here to focus on themselves and just accept their LD as they are. Then make their choices accordingly.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

FW, this is the 21st century. We can add hilarity all we want about knowing at age 10 if we are HD or LD. But we know. Heck, my first - and probably best - flame was 100% AVEN certified asexual. But she was very up front about it at a young age. We were together for a good while and learned things about each other that few people can lay claim to (two psychology students dating -what could possibly go wrong - and parted ways when we both moved abroad for grad school. 

I'm not talking about that.

I'd rather not call out TAM cases of suspected cake eating but there are many cases where the before and after picture is too easy to ignore.

That doesn't mean it's intentional every time and is not only sexually related - a husband not helping with a new baby is just as much a d!cl - but people are too full of new love cloud brain to do some decent due diligence. 

To be blunt - pick a spouse like you pick a cat. Before dropping a fortune on a kitten we thoroughly interviewed the cattery, and saw the parents as well as the kitten himself. He's turning into his father now, sweet personality, healthy appetite, P90X. muscle and huge, dad is well over 25 lb. Ok, maybe it doesn't work for humans as well  But look at upbringing, parents, and how they handle unexpected situations and the like. 

Do we want to talk about sex SLA's on our rosy colored glasses time of the relationship? Maybe not. But people are conditioned to not talk about such things. That needs to change. And as long as it doesn't well see more cafeteria marriages.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

john117 said:


> But people are conditioned to not talk about such things. That needs to change. And as long as it doesn't well see more cafeteria marriages.


Right. Things need to change and in the past (and even currently) there is no way for young people to truly understand what they are getting themselves into, nor can they understand what our bodies go through as we have babies, gain and lose weight, have stressful lives, etc.

Yet earlier you were all about assigning blame to the LD spouses. Even though you admit here that things need to change so these things can be understood better and talked about.

There are just as many HD spouses who are to blame for their sexless marriages as there are LD spouses who are to blame for their sexless marriages. You are the one who was making generalities and putting all the blame on the LD's, not me.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Faithful Wife said:


> People get to be who they are. We can't force self-improvement upon anyone. What we CAN do is decide for ourselves if we want to stay or leave. It really would help every HD here to focus on themselves and just accept their LD as they are. Then make their choices accordingly.


Oh, I know.

It just pisses me off to see people essentially sit around doing nothing while people who love them are in pain.

I guess it's the lack of accountability that gets to me. I shouldn't let it.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

marduk said:


> Oh, I know.
> 
> It just pisses me off to see people essentially sit around doing nothing while people who love them are in pain.
> 
> I guess it's the lack of accountability that gets to me. I shouldn't let it.


No one is a helpless victim. 

Don't project your own pain into other's situations, it just doesn't help anyone.

We can all leave if we want.

The person "inflicting" the pain, we don't know them, can't be them, and can't understand their motivations.

What we CAN do is ask ourselves why WE are motivated to stay with someone we claim we "love so much", yet we can't stand them for constantly hurting us, and we want them to change completely. How is that love?


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Faithful Wife said:


> No one is a helpless victim.
> 
> Don't project your own pain into other's situations, it just doesn't help anyone.
> 
> ...


I think it's deeper than that. Not so cut and dried, sometimes. 

For example, with my ex, she would give me a glimmer here and there, toss me a bone, as it were. Just enough not to leave, but not enough to be happy. 

Or promise to try, and then not. Or read a book. Or whatever, you know?

It feels quite manipulative. Although on the other end of that it probably feels more like survival. For the ld person. Is that what you see?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Well you did finally leave her right, and she was cheating on you or something? So now you know whatever you didn't know when you were together.

Which I'm going to guess is: You should have left much sooner, but instead you whined to her about changing and she tossed some bones. Is that right?

More self-awareness on your part would have ended your misery there much sooner.

Yet we always want to try to blame them, not ourselves.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Faithful Wife said:


> Well you did finally leave her right, and she was cheating on you or something? So now you know whatever you didn't know when you were together.
> 
> Which I'm going to guess is: You should have left much sooner, but instead you whined to her about changing and she tossed some bones. Is that right?
> 
> ...


Ya. Maybe I'm projecting. 

She turned the taps down on sex when we got married, then shut them off altogether for our last 6-12 months. Maybe the odd bj or hj or something if she was feeling gracious. She told me she wasn't attracted to me any more but wouldn't tell me why. 

I was in good shape, had a good job, put her through school, bought us a condo and a car. 

But I was too passive. And she was having an affair. I didn't find out about that until after we were separated. 

So we went to counselling. She said she would try, but all she would do is talk about everything I did wrong. The more I would try to make her happy, the more abusive she became. Slapping, throwing frying pans at me, that kind of thing. 

I think me trying actually frustrated her more, because what she wanted was for me to go away. Which she never once said. 

She told me she was ld and always was. Even though she was a freak when we were dating, and was happy to have sex with the om. 

Until, in our third mc session I think, I asked her why I always have to fix everything, when does she have to help?

And she stood up, announced we were separating, and walked out the door. 

Never an answer. Which ****ed me up for a long time. 

I guess when I see a ld guy that can fix his wife's torment with proper diet and exercise, and make him feel better along the way, it gets to me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

So did you learn that you were just abysmal at judging when a woman isn't into you? I'm going to guess that everything you needed to know about her was in front of your face.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

marduk said:


> I guess when I see a ld guy that can fix his wife's torment with proper diet and exercise, *and make him feel better along the way*, it gets to me.


Projection.

You don't know what would make him feel better.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Faithful Wife said:


> So did you learn that you were just abysmal at judging when a woman isn't into you? I'm going to guess that everything you needed to know about her was in front of your face.


I can say that I would now respond differently. I did, when my current wife started to lose interest and act out. It's why I'm harsh on some of the guys that come here with a poor me attitude about why their wife isn't into them any more. Because I needed that ass kicking, you know? That introspection about how much of me is weak and sucky. 

I would also say that she has a pattern of manipulative behaviour. Last I heard through the few family members of hers that I've run into over the years that would speak to me is that she had a pattern of using her beauty and sex to get a guy, then shut off the sex (in fact shut off the relationship all together) and start sleeping with a new guy before her previous relationship was over. She's also very smart. 

So all in all I'd rather not have had to go through it at all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Faithful Wife said:


> Projection.
> 
> You don't know what would make him feel better.


I dunno about that. 

Having been an overweight guy with body image issues and then not, the knock on effects are huge.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

So what you learned is that you can be in love with someone who manipulates you.

And you learned that losing weight made you feel better, but you still can't say that about anyone else because they have different reasons for being overweight than you did.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Faithful Wife said:


> So what you learned is that you can be in love with someone who manipulates you.
> 
> And you learned that losing weight made you feel better, but you still can't say that about anyone else because they have different reasons for being overweight than you did.


What advice would you give to an hd wife that wasn't getting their needs met?

Or a ld husband?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

My advice would be that they should examine themselves and find out why they are choosing to be in a relationship that isn't meeting their needs.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> And what person ANYWHERE was ever told directly what they were getting into with marriage and had it explained to them in a way they could understand? What young person knows what it means to be married for 10 years and have 3 kids?
> 
> *This is true for anybody at any age, kids or no kids. How can any two people survive a long term marriage with all the changing we go through. I am nothing at all like I was 10 years ago. Ten years before that, I was in love with the idea of being in love. I was a dreamer. I thought if we just communicated, all will be fine. Seems stupid nkw that I think about it. I learned over the years that communication without action is pointless.
> 
> ...


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

First than you for posting and starting this thread. 

As a 66 year old man married for over 44 years to the same woman and who has been in a sex starved marriage, and who fought to save that marriage, and is having sex with my wife twice a week, thanks to the help of a sex therapist, some great counselors, great books and great advice from people in a similar situation, I think I can understand some of what your H feels. 

I also am learning so much from the recent posts about asexuality and it is challenging a lot of my beliefs and views to the core. 

Still, I would like to offer you a few observations and thoughts, based on my experience, which may be different than yours or your H's. 

I think that there are more than two options.



beautymadness23 said:


> ...However, here's the problem. My husband know *I could do things to boost his confidence, stroke his eho, make him feel masculine, make him feel validated sexually, etc...*
> 
> But he know *I just don't naurrally feel that*, and he can't get over it. I could donjt, but he now knows that I'm only doing it for him, that I don't care or derive pleasure. That's what he needs. *My efforts would not accomplish much because its out in the open, he knows now...he wants me to feel it inside, like a burning fire, a unquenchable desire and I'd that's not there,* nothing I do will make him much happier. *He feels I'd be pretending*. And who wants that?
> 
> Hence why I feel there's only two options.


As has been pointed out there are other options.



beautymadness23 said:


> ...Perhaps I do need to go into a doctor or therapist. I will talk to husband about that to see if finances allow. I'm a stay at home mom, be works.
> 
> ....But a dr could maybe check hirmine levels a d *a therapist would at least provide someone to talk to. I feel I have no one to talk to* about this. So few people identify with this and many people don't even think it's really and legitimate.
> 
> ...


Going to a therapist for someone to talk to is really pretty expensive. There are a lot of good sex therapists out there and they really can help people deal with sexual problems in marriage. That is what they have been trained to do and certified to do. They helped my wife and me. They have lots of exercises that the two of you can do to help you get more comfortable with each other and build a stronger relationship.

I think that the open marriage option is likely to fail and you are absolutely correct in your instincts. 

You H says he is looking for passion and to be desired and feels that even if your role play that it will not be enough. This means that a professional sex worker who roll played with your H would not be able to satisfy him. This line of thinking requires a real woman to fall in love with your H and give him the passion he desires and yet....after sex they both walk away from each other so that your marriage to your H is not damaged. That just will not happen. 

If he needs passion and is going out to find passion, he will likely find it at some point. If he just wants sex, the two of your can work something out so he gets his sex.



beautymadness23 said:


> My husband was reading these posts tonight and we went through them together. He felt this advice and possible solution was the most sound and resonates with him the most.
> 
> So now my *husband says that he wants me to pour myself into fixing this, *changing this for awhile. Make it my mission, my life's work so to speak for a while.
> 
> ...


It sounds like you are now considering a 3rd option, which is to try to change. *Congratulations!*

First you are not broken and don't need to be "fixed." However, you are human and as a human you can always grow and change in some ways, if you put your heart into it. That is something I really believe in, as I have changed myself in many ways.

My I suggest that you start reading some books by David Schnarch. His two most famous (and hard to read books) are the Passionate Marriage and the Crucible. I would recommend something newer by him. 

His view is the Marriage is extremely hard work. Marriage takes two people and through great trials and conflict welds (melts two different metals by high heat in a Crucible) them into a new and single entity. He feels that the struggle, if the marriage succeeds, produces growth in both parties. He feels that growth and stretching yourself to be the best you can be is critical. He feels that self-soothing is critical to the process of change. He feels that self-differentiation (finding your true, improved, best and most integrated you) is also critical. That often two people in a marriage develop at different rates and that creates problems.

He has some exercises on intimacy that scare the heck out of most people. My wife once told me our marriage lacked the intimacy she wanted. I showed her the book and the exercises, and they scared her to the core. She told me that the "Naked, eyes open extended hugging and kissing in silence" was too much intimacy and that she really didn't want all that much intimacy. Schnarch would say that she could not stretch herself and couldn't self-soothe enough to get past her fear of being vulnerable and open.

Other things you might want to research in your trying to grow or change how you interact with your H include self hypnosis, visualization, and doing words/phrases of affirmation. Many people use these techniques to deal with major life changes, such as weight loss, stopping smoking, recovering from grieving, etc. Again, there is nothing broken with you. You did say you want to change yourself and the way you interact with your H.

Related to these things is something call Conditioned Response. B. F. Skinner is famous for his work on Operant Conditioning.

You and others may think that I am suggesting you become a "Stepford Wife," but I am not. You have said that you feel your best option is working on yourself to please your H and you want to give it a try, but it seems too big and overwhelming.

I am trying to provide you with some ideas on how to accomplish what you want and make it a little less overwhelming. 

Another piece of advice is to work with your H on dividing up some of the change the two of you want into small pieces. 

For example, let's say he wants you have him seduce him and initiate sex. Rather than all that at once. Maybe you could visualize greeting him at the door when he gets home with a hug. When that is something you can do and you are comfortable with it, because it pleases him and you can self-soothe sufficiently that it no longer makes you uncomfortable, you can kick it up a notch. Say sit next to him on the sofa and put your arms around him (sort of hug-like), but give him a french kiss. After you get comfortable with that during a different week, kick it up another notch, by say unbuttoning your or his shirt, etc. Divide things into steps. Work on each step until it becomes something you can do and not be repelled by. Reward yourself for achieving and completing each step with something that makes you feel really good! 

Schnarch's concept of stretching and self-soothing as a path to marital change is an interesting approach. Marriage is hard work, if it is to succeed.

Good luck to you. Fight for your marriage, have faith in yourself. Learn to love yourself and the skills and abilities you have. Those you aren't happy with you can work on changing, if it is what you choose to do.


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

Young at Heart said:


> First than you for posting and starting this thread.
> 
> As a 66 year old man married for over 44 years to the same woman and who has been in a sex starved marriage, and who fought to save that marriage, and is having sex with my wife twice a week, thanks to the help of a sex therapist, some great counselors, great books and great advice from people in a similar situation, I think I can understand some of what your H feels.
> 
> ...



Pretty sure this is the path that our MC is going to take with my H next week.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
Some stay because they don't want to hurt their partners. 





Faithful Wife said:


> My advice would be that they should examine themselves and find out why they are choosing to be in a relationship that isn't meeting their needs.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> Some stay because they don't want to hurt their partners.


And some would say that to subjugate your own needs in order to "not hurt your partner", even though you are being hurt, is masochistic and unhealthy.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
true - but its never that simple. Sex is not the only important thing in life. If other things are good, it may not be enough reason to leave. 

As I've said, it just seems so easy to fix. The frustration is being so close to real happiness ,but not able to get there. 





Faithful Wife said:


> And some would say that to subjugate your own needs in order to "not hurt your partner", even though you are being hurt, is masochistic and unhealthy.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> As I've said, it just seems so easy to fix. The frustration is being so close to real happiness ,but not able to get there.


I would say the frustration comes from not accepting reality without trying to change it.

When you truly accept your reality, you will feel differently.


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

FW...I have really respected the majority of your posts, however, you seem to be doing the black & white thing here without considering the gray. 

Btw....I'm STILL behind the schoolhouse. I have the $40. Wtf are you?


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
I think the general cause of frustration (in everything not just this) is when there is a situation that looks like it can be easily improved, but that does not happen. 






Faithful Wife said:


> I would say the frustration comes from not accepting reality without trying to change it.
> 
> When you truly accept your reality, you will feel differently.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Elizabeth001 said:


> FW...I have really respected the majority of your posts, however, you seem to be doing the black & white thing here without considering the gray.
> 
> Btw....I'm STILL behind the schoolhouse. I have the $40. Wtf are you?


Here's what I'm trying to get at, Elizabeth, and this is a much better way of saying it...and yes, in a way it is black and white:

If you place the responsibility for your own happiness on someone else's shoulders, you will never be happy. No other person can do and say everything they need to in order to keep you happy all the time. Our happiness is our responsibility.

Now of course, there are times when anyone's spouse lets them down, doesn't do what we'd like, and so on....and most people can still be happy even if their spouse is temporarily acting in a way they don't like.

If you are consistently unhappy AND you are blaming your spouse for your unhappiness, then you have done what I said above: you've placed the responsibility for your own happiness on someone else.

Then further, if you are going to say "but I do this and that even though I don't like it, because it makes him/her happy"...then you are just putting yourself in a martyr position.

The black and white part is this: It is never anyone else's responsibility or obligation to make YOU happy. That's YOUR job. This applies to everyone, and if you can really figure out how to incorporate it into your own life, you can find out how to make yourself happy regardless of what anyone else is doing or not doing.

So right away if you are going to claim "I need to have sex to be happy", then you are already trying to put the responsibility for your happiness on someone else's shoulders since having sex implies another person is present and has to be willing to have sex with you.

The bottom line is that many of these sexually mismatched marriages are never going to improve...yet instead of facing this fact many of these HD spouses are going to remain stuck, resentful, and secretly hating their spouse. This is what I'm trying to address. Though obviously, I'm not going to reach these people anyway, as they are going to continue the blame game and resentment flu. Their choice. They can believe it isn't their choice, but it is. It really doesn't make them a "good person" for staying due to "obligation" while secretly hating their spouse...and yet, these people absolutely see themselves as the good person and their spouse as the bad person.

And dang it, I must not have recognized you behind the school! Sorry about that, I took all the MDMA though, it didn't go to waste.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> I think the general cause of frustration (in everything not just this) is when there is a situation that looks like it can be easily improved, but that does not happen.


If by "easily improved" you mean "someone else needs to do something different", then you are going to remain frustrated forever.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
Yes, and I will go through phases of posting complaints forever

I am well aware that there is no action I can take that will make the overall situation better, and that my wife is not going to take any action to make it better. That doesn't keep it from being frustrating.






Faithful Wife said:


> If by "easily improved" you mean "someone else needs to do something different", then you are going to remain frustrated forever.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> Yes, and I will go through phases of posting complaints forever
> 
> I am well aware that there is no action I can take that will make the overall situation better, and that my wife is not going to take any action to make it better. That doesn't keep it from being frustrating.


Do you mean physical, sexual frustration?

Or do you mean the emotional frustration that comes from not getting your emotional needs met?


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
Emotional frustration, coupled with a suspicion that my wife doesn't care about me and that the love of my life doesn't really love me back. The suspicion that I am being used. 

I can take care of myself physically and watch porn. My need to do so though is humiliating. I am actually overall a reasonably desirable partner and I think "frustrating" is the word that best describes the situation where other women want me, but my wife does not. 








Faithful Wife said:


> Do you mean physical, sexual frustration?
> 
> Or do you mean the emotional frustration that comes from not getting your emotional needs met?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> Emotional frustration, coupled with a suspicion that my wife doesn't care about me and that the love of my life doesn't really love me back. The suspicion that I am being used.
> 
> I can take care of myself physically and watch porn. My need to do so though is humiliating. I am actually overall a reasonably desirable partner and I think "frustrating" is the word that best describes the situation where other women want me, but my wife does not.


Ok, I hear you. This is a very good response.

Now I'm going to say something you can take in many different ways. But please read this in a philosophical sense. 

You are in a chosen relationship. You are choosing to remain married, every day. We all make this choice every day that we are married.

If you are going to choose to be in a position that you cannot change but which frustrates you, then it is all on you. 

From this position, where it is entirely your choice to remain in a frustrating place where you will never get your needs met...what does this say about you? Why are you doing this? And please don't look to answers like "obligation" or "because I love her". Because neither of those things make any difference to your situation (obviously). You cannot "blame" your choice to stay on these things, because they are also your choice.

I am not saying you should leave her. I am not saying you are not taking responsibility for your choice either, I know that you are. 

But the problem you keep bumping into is that you haven't actually accepted your reality as it is and dealt with it. You keep secretly pining for something different, harboring resentment, and it makes you kind of hate yourself. All this again, because of choices you are freely making.

Why would you make these choices? There are answers within you that are not about your obligation or devotion. They have to do with your relationship with yourself.

When you deal with this from that angle, I think you will find some relief from your frustration.


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

As I told our MC, I would have already left if I could have. I know I can't change the situation. It doesn't appear that he is willing to put in the work. It does sting a bit in the meantime though.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

Elizabeth001 said:


> As I told our MC, I would have already left if I could have. I know I can't change the situation. It doesn't appear that he is willing to put in the work. It does sting a bit in the meantime though.


Do you stay because of financial reasons?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

Yes. Don't want to keep thread jacking. My post is "No way out".


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Faithful Wife said:


> My advice would be that they should examine themselves and find out why they are choosing to be in a relationship that isn't meeting their needs.


I agree... that's what I think, too. But isn't that too easy though?

I mean, look at your friend. She's 46 and doesn't want to leave until the kids are older. So she feels stuck.

Wouldn't it be logical to spend that time trying to get your needs met rather than sitting there?


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Faithful Wife said:


> And some would say that to subjugate your own needs in order to "not hurt your partner", even though you are being hurt, is masochistic and unhealthy.


I stayed and did not cheat even when given opportunities to do so and even once in anger told to go have sex with someone else by my ex.

Not because I cared about her too much, even though I was deeply, madly, and quite innocently in love with her.

But because of a single word, that means a lot to me: duty.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

marduk said:


> I agree... that's what I think, too. But isn't that too easy though?
> 
> I mean, look at your friend. She's 46 and doesn't want to leave until the kids are older. So she feels stuck.
> 
> Wouldn't it be logical to spend that time trying to get your needs met rather than sitting there?


She has already done all the trying, begging, pleading, fighting, crying. The talking, yelling, wondering. She's been through the loss of self-esteem and sense of self, she's given up on the hope of anything better finally. She has accepted her reality. He is not going to change. He has not responded at all to any of her attempts at change. This has been going on for over 10 years.

So she no longer tries, she is focused on herself, and has her eyes on the goal of leaving when the kid is a little older.

In the meantime, she's focused on herself, in counseling, and trying to figure out why she ended up with a man who will never touch her. Because she finally understands: This was her choice.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

marduk said:


> I stayed and did not cheat even when given opportunities to do so and even once in anger told to go have sex with someone else by my ex.
> 
> Not because I cared about her too much, even though I was deeply, madly, and quite innocently in love with her.
> 
> But because of a single word, that means a lot to me: duty.


And when people say stuff like this, I don't really see it the way you do.

You're basically saying "I am a good person because I allowed someone else to manipulate me and I did not stop them, because duty".

Each of us choose what we feel duty and obligation for. It may make you feel heroic...but you can't expect it to make anyone else see you that way. I think it makes you look like you wasted a lot of time for no reason.

Kind of like when a woman is with an abuser or a "bad boy" and she puts up with all kinds of bullsh*t from him, and then when she finally gets out of it she pats herself on the back for not leaving sooner because "she luuuuuuuuuvvvvv'd him". Meanwhile, everyone else is just thinking "um yeah, like that did you a lot of good".


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Duty is also the wedding vows and all the other good stuff, is it not? 

Both sides have a duty to do their best for mutual happiness and mutual benefit and such. So, if one side slacks off after being told what's expected, the end result is easy to predict.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

john117 said:


> Duty is also the wedding vows and all the other good stuff, is it not?
> 
> Both sides have a duty to do their best for mutual happiness and mutual benefit and such. So, if one side slacks off after being told what's expected, the end result is easy to predict.


If it was truly a duty, then no one would ever slack off. You can claim duty for yourself, but we can never make someone else have the same duty.

People are lead to their deaths based on duty.

In marduk's case, his ex-w was abusive and cheating on him. His duty to her made no difference to that.

I'm just saying it is going to work out better for everyone involved in a marriage to be with each other because they mutually want to be with each other and not be with anyone else. It also works out better if you accept each other as they are and aren't trying to change them in order to want to be with them. 

Q. Why are you with him/her?

1A. Duty.

2A. Because we both want to be with each other and no one else.

The second answer is going to create a better marriage. You can have both, but if you only have the first answer then....pain and resentment await you.

Those mutually wanting to be with each other may also feel duty, but if duty alone is what is keeping you around and if it will keep you around even through abuse, infidelity, sexlessness, or whatever...then I don't see what good duty is for us. It leads to self-abuse, by choosing to stay in a situation you know is not good for you. I'm not saying this is true in all marriages, just the ones that are mismatched or abusive and there's no hope for change.

I'm also not saying people should abandon their marriages.

I'm just pointing out that when you're choosing to stay in a situation that is making you unhappy and you claim "duty" as your reason, I don't think that automatically should be a badge of honor. Some people claim "duty" but they are actually just afraid of leaving, or they don't believe anyone else would have them, or they just don't want others to see them as a failure even though when they finally do leave (or get left) no one sees them that way.

I know it is different for you john. You stay for your own reasons and will leave when you are ready.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

We make our vows to love for better or for worse. However, how can we make a promise when we don't know the future? I don't think God wanted to make marriage a prison.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> If it was truly a duty, then no one would ever slack off. You can claim duty for yourself, but we can never make someone else have the same duty.
> 
> People are lead to their deaths based on duty.
> 
> ...



People (not me) see staying together as a duty. I don't. 

But in general the sense of duty is real. Let's say the LD gets hit with a stroke, is that reason to bail? 

As adults we have our own sense of honor to worry about. Not duty to others, but an obligation to ourselves.


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> She has already done all the trying...Because she finally understands: This was her choice.



You had me until this. What I'm living in was not and is not my choice. This is not what I feel was promised to me when I said "I do". 

I've seen a lot of posts on here bashing the hell out of men because they generalize. Your responses sound so much like generalization. Although I agree with what you are saying rings true with the majority, there are some, like me, where it just doesn't apply. It's hard to read and makes me feel as if there's still SOMETHING I can further change to meet his guidelines. 

You just can't put everyone in the same pot and say "Duh....do THIS and it will go away".

And not everyone can just say "I'm out", pack a bag and leave. I did that at 16...didn't have sh1t...didn't need sh1t. Can't and WONT do that at this point in my life. I've put everything I had into this marriage when he had minus nothing to give. I will not leave until I have enough to at least pick up where I left off. 

Please stop thinking in generalities. 

Whew...I feel better. Thanks! :-D


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

Elizabeth001 said:


> What I'm living in was not and is not my choice. This is not what I feel was promised to me when I said "I do".
> 
> And not everyone can just say "I'm out", pack a bag and leave. I did that at 16...didn't have sh1t...didn't need sh1t. Can't and WONT do that at this point in my life. I've put everything I had into this marriage when he had minus nothing to give.D



Elizabeth, I stay because of finances. I can say its becaybof my daughter, but if there was more money, It would be an easier decision.

What I do know is that evervday, although I have happy moments, I die just a little bit more. I am losing my mojo with my work. It's hard enough being self employed to stay focused on work. I am not making as much as I should be making. I think if I were to divorce, my income would increase. 

I wish we can all break out of our self-imposed prison.

I also know what it's like to have nothing. I get where you may be coming from.




_A human being is part of a whole, called by us the Universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings, as something separated from the rest a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circles of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty.”
Albert Einstein quotes _


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Elizabeth001 said:


> You had me until this. What I'm living in was not and is not my choice. This is not what I feel was promised to me when I said "I do".
> 
> I've seen a lot of posts on here bashing the hell out of men because they generalize. Your responses sound so much like generalization. Although I agree with what you are saying rings true with the majority, there are some, like me, where it just doesn't apply. It's hard to read and makes me feel as if there's still SOMETHING I can further change to meet his guidelines.
> 
> ...


Elizabeth, I'm sorry you feel that way. However, I did not mean "this is her choice" as in "this was her choice to end up in a f*cked up marriage". I meant it as in "this is my choice to stay for now, until I get my kid grown up a little" but also "why did I make these choices that hurt me along the way?" "Why did I stay when there was obviously no hope?"

And by accepting these choices, she is no longer struggling to make him change or to change herself into someone who can accept things the way they are. She now has some relief from fighting against her reality. It is her choice to stay, for now, and she is much more at peace with this choice than with the constant struggle and self-loathing that comes with fighting an uphill battle.

I do keep saying that I don't mean people should run away from their marriages.

I was friends with this woman through everything. I have been with her, encouraging her to try for years, while there seemed to still be some chance of improvement. I prayed with her for her marriage to get better and for her husband to become her lover and for her to have everything she was promised in this marriage. I have read books with her and shared all the knowledge, giving and receiving advice for each other in our marriages, and really do wish that could happen still, because it would be the best situation...or so it seems.

I have been with her as she grieved this marriage, shouted at God "why why why why why!!!", and went through roller coasters of depression about it for years.

After years of trying everything she can think of, he is solid in his place and cannot or won't change. When she finally hit that rock wall, she had to accept it. But she's still not ready to leave yet, and I'm still here, being her friend, encouraging her in her new direction of just being happy within herself and accepting this temporary amount of time left until she can leave. He knows this is her position, and still can't/won't change.

So now she is also exploring, "why did I stay, given that it was a dead end all along?" This is a separate part of the "this is my choice" question. She had seen all the evidence she needed every day along the way.

Is she supposed to stay out of duty or honor at this point?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Trickster said:


> Elizabeth, I stay because of finances. I can say its becaybof my daughter, but if there was more money, It would be an easier decision.


This is true for my friend as well. She would be gone if she had plenty of money to do it. If she divorced now, she could not provide the same life for her kid, and she will not disrupt his world until he is a little older. She is lining up her income possibilities to be able to do that with or without her husband's income.

Meanwhile, she has stopped the slowly dying feeling, by accepting that although this sucks, it is temporary.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Duty and honor are meaningless in the grand scheme of things; people stay in crappy marriages because of kids or money or both. 

The law isn't always friendly to both sides of a divorce...


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> This is true for my friend as well. She would be gone if she had plenty of money to do it. If she divorced now, she could not provide the same life for her kid, and she will not disrupt his world until he is a little older. She is lining up her income possibilities to be able to do that with or without her husband's income.
> 
> Meanwhile, she has stopped the slowly dying feeling, by accepting that although this sucks, it is temporary.


It comes down to acceptance and honesty. If our SO knows the long term plan and they make no effort to make any necessary changes, there isn't a whole lot more we can do. 

I want our daughter to maintain her quality of life most of all.

My wife is totally dependent on my income. She doesn't have a choice. I just wish I knew why she doesn't want to take some classes to increase her employment opportunities like she keeps telling me she wants to do. She has to be a little unhappy as well. I haven't been making life very comfortable for her lately.


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## NotEasy (Apr 19, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> If it was truly a duty, then no one would ever slack off. You can claim duty for yourself, but we can never make someone else have the same duty.
> 
> People are lead to their deaths based on duty.
> 
> ...


I tend to use the word "commitment" rather than "duty", but they are similar.

For me it is based on marriage vows. My marriage vows were asked to each of us separately. It was not "do you promise to XYZ for as long as they XYZ " It was just "do you promise to XYZ" The fact that the spouse doesn't honor their vow doesn't remove my vow. Duty or commitment remain.

Of course, the spouse may cross a boundary that leads to divorce. Everyones boundaries are different. Some people seem to set boundaries to be that the spouse has to match their commitment. So their vows sort of become "do you promise to XYZ for as long as they XYZ".

I agree that 2A is more likely to create a better marriage. The difference is the "we both" in 2A, while 1A has an implied "I have ". If 2A was changed to 
"Because I want to be with them and no one else."
then I think it is less likely to create a better marriage, as 1 WANT is weaker than 1 DUTY.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

john117 said:


> Duty and honor are meaningless in the grand scheme of things; people stay in crappy marriages because of kids or money or both.
> 
> The law isn't always friendly to both sides of a divorce...


duty and honour are the _only_ things of meaning.

Children are not things. Money is a thing that one can have exactly as much as one desires. Marriage is a choice.

Duty is the thing one must do.

Honour is the only thing you can give yourself that no-one else can take away. No-one but yourself, of course.

You may not understand FW or John. But for me, duty and honour are among the only things that are, for me.


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## Big Dude (Feb 24, 2013)

marduk said:


> duty and honour are the _only_ things of meaning.
> 
> *Amen.*
> 
> ...


*Our character is our identity. Our bodies, relationships, and material things all change and pass away in time.

Isn't TAM amazing? From asexuality to philosophy in just a few pages! *:grin2:


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

marduk said:


> duty and honour are the _only_ things of meaning.
> 
> Children are not things. Money is a thing that one can have exactly as much as one desires. Marriage is a choice.
> 
> ...


Ok I hear you....but the way you feel about duty and honor (in this specific topic) isn't something that is across the board. If someone decides to leave instead of stay in these types of circumstances, it doesn't mean they are a bad person, or that they don't have duty or honor, and it doesn't mean that people who do stay are better people.

Your own values and decisions don't set the standard for anyone else.

I just think that there is far too much pressure on people to stay out of a sense of duty, and I don't think staying out of a sense of duty creates a good marriage. It _definitely_ doesn't change a sexless marriage into a sex filled one.

Without the mutual desire to be with only each other, there's going to be pain and resentment. 

There's a lot of "I would be happy if you would change, but I will stay anyway and silently hate you" that can occur in a situation like this.

My friend has finally stopped asking her husband to change, and she feels relief from that. Now she can stop silently hating him. In fact, she doesn't have that secret hate for him anymore...she is gathering more compassion for him than ever before.

He did not mean to "do this to her". He loves her, he just cannot or will not change, and he regrets this...but that makes no difference. He never intended for any of this to happen, and neither did she. They love each other very much. But...it still makes no difference, the reality is this sexless marriage that will not change.

They are just victims of the poor decisions, lack of self-awareness and blind hope that many millions of others are. They are not bad people or lacking in duty and honor if they finally throw in the towel.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
I disagree. Duty means a lot to many people. There are many ways that I could make my life better by making the lives of others worse. 

I'm in a political battle at work to avoid laying off one of my employees. It would help my career to get rid of her because she is disliked by upper management, but in *my* opinion she is doing her job well and I have a duty to protect those in my employ. 

If my wife became ill, I could divorce her. Even in the worst case I would be a wealthy man, and I could find a young healthy woman who would make my life more pleasant - but I have a duty to stay with my wife in sickness or health.

The issue with sex is similar but more minor. I could divorce and find another woman with whom I would have a passionate sex life and maybe a happy marriage. But that would hurt my wife, and I am duty bound to protect her. (and it is quite possible that the marriage would have other issues that would make it unhappy).

Are not marriage vows essentially vows to do what you can to make your spouse happy?










john117 said:


> Duty and honor are meaningless in the grand scheme of things; people stay in crappy marriages because of kids or money or both.
> 
> The law isn't always friendly to both sides of a divorce...


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Faithful Wife said:


> Ok I hear you....but the way you feel about duty and honor (in this specific topic) isn't something that is across the board. If someone decides to leave instead of stay in these types of circumstances, it doesn't mean they are a bad person, or that they don't have duty or honor, and it doesn't mean that people who do stay are better people.
> 
> Your own values and decisions don't set the standard for anyone else.
> 
> ...


I get it. I get that stopping pounding your head into a brick wall reduces the pain.

I guess what I just realized was how different the setup for my two marriages were. Marriage #1 was pure, innocent, naive, and unconditional. It was a forever thing, right?

So no matter what she did, I tried to hang in there and do what's right, because that's what I gave my word to do. Even when she didn't, you know?

Marriage #2 is very different. It was very conditional. It was very much a daily choice, where we agreed to prioritize each other (including sex), live by the boundaries, and would agree to walk away if the other no longer chose it.

So it's very different. I don't feel bound by duty in my current marriage the same way. Support, to provide, all that, sure. But not forever if she doesn't hold up her end of the bargain.

And I guess that's better, but I guess I miss the innocence, too.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

marduk said:


> I get it. I get that stopping pounding your head into a brick wall reduces the pain.
> 
> I guess what I just realized was how different the setup for my two marriages were. Marriage #1 was pure, innocent, naive, and unconditional. It was a forever thing, right?
> 
> ...


This post sums up perfectly the difference between my first and second as well.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
better - but sad. A marriage shouldn't need to be a business arrangement. It would be so wonderful if two people really did try to do their best for each other.

I guess that sometimes it happens - but people in marriages like that are not posting here.



marduk said:


> I get it. I get that stopping pounding your head into a brick wall reduces the pain.
> 
> I guess what I just realized was how different the setup for my two marriages were. Marriage #1 was pure, innocent, naive, and unconditional. It was a forever thing, right?
> 
> ...


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

marduk said:


> And I guess that's better, but I guess I miss the innocence, too.


I miss the innocence as well. But I can have a new type of innocence with my new way of looking at things.

Basically, I can make it (in my mind and experience) so that everyone is innocent in relationship with me, no one ever meant to hurt me (and vice versa), and if we did get hurt it was just an unfortunate thing that happened. We always loved each other and always will. Innocence includes forgiveness and understanding, because we can't get our healing done until those things occur...and being healed again (or having closure) does feel like a new innocence.

Disclosure though: I've never been with a person who was abusive by nature or did actually mean to hurt me, dupe me, etc.

For those who have, I imagine the healing and return to innocence is much harder.

I think we all just want to love each other and be happy...and when that can't always work out, we feel like that bright happy bubble has burst. There's a way to get back to it for most people though.

And some people never have their bubble burst, which is awesome. People like jld and SA, who married their sweethearts and are living out that life they hoped for.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

OK... I have an off topic analogy.

A neighbor friend found a stray dog a while back. They were afraid to pick her up and being that I volunteer at a shelter, they came and got me. Not that I know anything about animals. It was old, missing all her teeth, and had what seemed to be other health concerns. I took her to the vet to have her checked out.

We put up flyers, but we weren't all that optimistic. We ended up taking her to the shelter while we continued to look for the owner. I was told they were going to euthionize after 3 days. With experience, dogs that age, with the health issues would never be adopted. If by some chance similar older dogs were adopted, they are returned 90% of the time. We could of kept her. We could of done more. Did we really do all we could do?

So, if the animals are usually euthionize in the end. Why should the dogs have to endure more pain and trauma of a new home, new routine, and new whatever, just to go back to the shelter when the end result is DEATH! The most humane and honerable thing to do is to euthionize.

On a good note. We found the owners and they picked her up before that happened.

Sometimes in an unloving marriage. Divorce is the "honorable" thing to do. It's our "duty" to put an unhealthy marriage out of its misery, especially if divorce is the end result. Why suffer? When I had to sign that paper to euthionize the little dog, that broke my heart. To sign divorce papers seems like its selfish and will break my heart, but I don't know which is worse. 

The question we have to ask ourselves is, at what point is it cruel and unusual punishment for everybody involved to stay married, especially for the children. I am guilty of the this myself.

What does honor and duty really mean?


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

I just contacted our real estate agent. Time to put this marriage to sleep. Doesn't feel good but ready to move forward. Best for everyone.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Elizabeth001 said:


> I just contacted our real estate agent. Time to put this marriage to sleep. Doesn't feel good but ready to move forward. Best for everyone.


Whoa! Elizabeth, I'm not even sure what your story is (do you have a thread?) but just 2 days ago you were saying something completely different. What is going on?


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

My post is "no way out".


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Richard,

I definitely relate to all this. 

It's also true that you might consider a very transparent conversation about this with R2. Because the real issue, is you are interpreting her behavior as meaning she doesn't particularly care whether or not you are happy with the marriage. 

I believe that is a reasonable assumption, but it might not be correct. 

Periodically M2 will be talking and I will say with a smile and a humorously indignant tone: hey wait a minute, for just a moment here we are actually talking about (I pause for a moment) ME. 

She laughs, says - sorry - covers her mouth and I finish the original thought....

This is highly effective. M2 isn't consciously being self centered. 





richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> I disagree. Duty means a lot to many people. There are many ways that I could make my life better by making the lives of others worse.
> 
> I'm in a political battle at work to avoid laying off one of my employees. It would help my career to get rid of her because she is disliked by upper management, but in *my* opinion she is doing her job well and I have a duty to protect those in my employ.
> ...


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
Its very strange. Despite all the discussions, she just doesn't think its reasonable for my happiness to have anything to do with our sex lives. I think she is convinced that I am abnormal in some way, feeling like I need sex all the time (eg more than a couple of times a month). She feels it is simply not reasonable for me to ask this of her. 



MEM11363 said:


> Richard,
> 
> I definitely relate to all this.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Richard,

Is there anything that is comparable for R2? Anything that, if you stopped doing it, would adversely impact her happiness level?

The thing is, I'm certain that R2 loves you. This certainty is rooted in pragmatism. Humor me for a moment on this theme: 

Based on your posts to date, your departure would have no financial impact on R2. And yet, when you've destabilized the marriage she:
- Melts down 
And
- Makes more effort to keep you happy (for a while)

She enjoys your company, your presence. I'm guessing she also likes your non sexual affection. 

The basis for my question: What does she 'need' from you is not to suggest using that - withholding that - to punish her. Rather as a basis for a conversation. For better mutual understanding.

For example, you reflexively put R2's needs first in most situations. I recognize that template because I do the same with M2. If you went to a 50-50 model, it wouldn't make much difference from a practical standpoint. But I'm guessing that R2 would start to feel anxious and tense. She'd wonder if you loved her. 





richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> Its very strange. Despite all the discussions, she just doesn't think its reasonable for my happiness to have anything to do with our sex lives. I think she is convinced that I am abnormal in some way, feeling like I need sex all the time (eg more than a couple of times a month). She feels it is simply not reasonable for me to ask this of her.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
There are lots of things I do for her that would make her very unhappy if I stopped. 

The problem with the conversation is that she doesn't see the symmetry. She doesn't see other things as being like sex. She will just point out all the (true) non-sexual things she does for me. She might tell me that I don't need to do those things any more (and she would be very unhappy) but I think she feels it is not reasonable to trade ANYTHING for sex. Feels that sex is fundamentally different from everything else and that a lack of interest trumps all other concerns.




MEM11363 said:


> Richard,
> 
> Is there anything that is comparable for R2? Anything that, if you stopped doing it, would adversely impact her happiness level?
> 
> ...


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> Its very strange. Despite all the discussions, she just doesn't think its reasonable for my happiness to have anything to do with our sex lives. I think she is convinced that I am abnormal in some way, feeling like I need sex all the time (eg more than a couple of times a month). She feels it is simply not reasonable for me to ask this of her.


You know what?

I actually doubt that. It's pretty hard to imagine _any_ credible source telling her that wanting sex > 2 x a month is unreasonable or abnormal.

I suspect it's far more likely that this is a highly ingrained, self-taught defence mechanism putting _her_ issue on you.

It's a pretty standard projection tactic. And we nice guys let it happen.



> Psychological projection also known as blame shifting is a theory in psychology in which humans defend themselves against unpleasant impulses by denying their existence in themselves, while attributing them to others...


and



> Projection may help a fragile ego reduce anxiety, but at the cost of a certain dissociation...


The dissociative element is actually key in all this, from what I understand.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection


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