# Can opposite love languages ever survive?



## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

Hi folks. I’ve been thinking about posting for a long time so thought it was time to finally gave it a go. I’m hoping to get a bit of perspective into my marriage, since I’ve done a lot of thinking and reading over the last few years but never been able to talk to anyone or get anyone else’s opinion.

So, I’m a married man living with a wife who gives me virtually no affection and very little sex.

I recently read the 5 Love Languages and it was an eye opener. Basically my wife’s main language is Acts of Service, and her bottom language is Physical Touch. I am the polar opposite. So I know her lack of affection is not on purpose which is at least somewhat comforting, but it is definitely driving a wedge between us.

A bit about my life, sorry if it’s a bit of an essay!

We’ve been together about 17 years, married 11, both early 40s. We have 2 kids between 7-10 years old. First the good bits. I adore my wife; she is very attractive, keeps herself in good shape (as do I), she is funny, we have a similar sense of humour, she is a great cook and cooks me lots of very good food. For the most part, when we aren’t annoyed with each other, we get on well, and always have fun on the few occasions we get a change to go for dinner together. She is my best friend and the only person I’ve ever felt I can be completely myself around.

However. She’s not a physical person at all (which she has told me a number of times when we’ve discussed it), never hugs me and as far as I can tell has almost no sex drive. I’m the opposite; for me a big part of a relationship is hugging, kissing, sharing each other’s personal space and having sex. I’ll try and hug her from time to time but mostly I get no response; if I hug her in bed normally its like hugging a plank of wood, often she will even turn her back on me. As a result I’ve pretty much given up trying to get any kind of response from her, but then of course I just get no physical closeness at all. She also never tells me she loves me. She just thinks it’s words that don’t mean anything and thinks its kinda sickly to say.

Sex happens 8 times a year, I know because I’ve been counting, most of the time I think she does it because we haven’t done it for a while and she feels bad. She says she does get small urges every now and again in the middle of day, but in the evening when we are together she is rarely interested. I used to take this very personally and get angry/upset/annoyed etc, by it which probably didn’t help. The problem with such low frequency is that I never know when we are next going to have sex which often drives me a little crazy. After about 2 weeks I’m normally climbing up the walls. Having said that I could settle for 2-3 times a month, but at the moment that just seems miles off.

Sex itself is plain vanilla, which I guess isn’t so bad, at least I get her naked and close to me when it happens. But oral is out; despite being very attractive she is actually quote shy and insecure so won’t let me even go down between her legs. First time I tried to give her oral she covered herself up and asked what the hell I was doing. However she does have an orgasm almost every time, and often quite vocal about it, so I know she enjoys it when it happens.

I’ve raised this issue many times over the last 2-3 years, so she knows how I feel, but she never does anything about it and shows no willingness to try. We had another row about this last night, and she said at the moment she doesn’t have much time to think about me because she is so busy thinking about the kids, work, cleaning, life etc. So I am getting very frustrated that she appears to be doing nothing to prioritise our relationship.

I know I’m not perfect, I’ve probably matured quite late in life so until the last couple of years was quite messy and didn’t help out much round the house, however that is now different. I constantly have it on my mind that her love language is acts of service so I am always trying to keep the house tidy, cook for her as often as I can, etc.

So that’s my life in a nutshell. I have very little frame of reference; my wife tells me that everyone at our stage in life is not having sex because of kids, job, and all the other responsibilities that go with being mature adult, but I’m not sure I buy that. I’ve never been that confident in my own opinions and feelings so in the past I have often ended up agreeing with her, but that is now changing now I am growing up and becoming more sure of myself.

My one girlfriend before my wife is my only comparison. That lasted 18 months, which was probably about 12 months too long, but with hindsight what probably kept us together was that we both enjoyed physical closeness. We would spend hours just hugging without saying much, and the sex was good with plenty of oral (I love giving oral, but of course never get the chance now).

So I’m now trying to figure out what to do next. I feel like we need to see a councillor about this maybe, but so far she has shown no willingness to go down that route; I think she has a hard time believing our relationship is particularly bad.

Are my problems typical of a married couple with busy jobs, lives and kids, or are we heading for something much worse (an affair, divorce)? Ultimately can people with very different love languages ever truly make a happy couple?

Any views would be greatly appreciated.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

people with different love languages absolutely can make happy couples. so long as they are both willing to speak their partners love languages. 


ever tried telling your wife that you will take her greatest love language(which you said was acts of service) and you will speak that love language to her as often as she speaks yours to you?

in other words, you will provide her with acts of service for about an hour, 8 times a year. or more often if she steps up frequency of sex and shows you affection on a regular basis.

if you havent, i would suggest you start doing it. dont just ask her how she would feel. if you have been doing acts of service for her all along, then she has no idea what it feels like. you would have to speak her love language as sparsely as she speaks yours in order for her to actually know what that feels like. 

basically, stop cleaning and doing stuff to help her out. tell her that since it is her most important love language, you will treat it the same way she treats yours. 

see whether she is willing to work with you or not.


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## pragmaticGoddess (Nov 29, 2017)

Yes it can. My H is acts of service and mine is words of encouragement. I don’t think your wife doesn’t like sex because she’s not affectionate. Has she experienced sexual trauma in her life? Even though affection is not her love language she at least return your hug? Acts of service is my second bottom love language but it doesn’t mean I don’t clean my house. 

Your wife sounds like she has low ot no sex drive. You might want to take a look at the Sex in Marriage section. There’s a lot of good advice in thise posts. 

You need to let your wife know this is how you’re feeling so you can both work at it together. Don’t suffer in silence then ask for a D. That’s not fair to her or your children that way.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Look at what medications she is on, such as birth control.


Physical issues, including hormonal changes related to menopause or childbirth, or thyroid problems.
Chronic stress, including in your relationship.
Depression or other mental health issues.
Some prescription drugs may also affect libido, including some types of antidepressants, birth control pills, anti-anxiety drugs, and blood pressure medications.

And, of course, it may be you, you just do not turn her on. She is a somewhat happy, not ambitious, a coasting roommate.
Plus, she has gotten into the habit of being this way. A hard habit to break.

And, of course, look for some long standing resentment. Did you hurt her in some way in the past? Maybe cheat on her?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Are you willing to risk the stability of your marriage to enact change? By that, I don't mean threatening divorce, but something more along the lines of what Asladain mentioned.

You are essentially allowing or enabling her to be comfortable in your discomfort in the current situation.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

OP, was your sex life with your wife ever good? Before marriage, or before the children came along? Was your sex life happy and easy and amazing, or has it always been sort of like it is now?


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## EasyPartner (Apr 7, 2014)

farsidejunky said:


> Are you willing to risk the stability of your marriage to enact change? By that, I don't mean threatening divorce, but something more along the lines of what Asladain mentioned.
> 
> You are essentially allowing or enabling her to be comfortable in your discomfort in the current situation.


Yup. True. But if you actually try that stuff, it may very well cost you your marriage, as she will grow resentful and, eventually, give the OP the ILYBNILWY speech.

My 0.02: OP loves his wife, clearly. Best attempt is to talk to her, lay it all out and reach a compromise, so he can get his 2 or 3 times a month that he can live with. No withholding LL games.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

EasyPartner said:


> Yup. True. But if you actually try that stuff, it may very well cost you your marriage, as she will grow resentful and, eventually, give the OP the ILYBNILWY speech.
> 
> My 0.02: OP loves his wife, clearly. Best attempt is to talk to her, lay it all out and reach a compromise, so he can get his 2 or 3 times a month that he can live with. No withholding LL games.


For certain, it would not be the first step. Communication is always the first step.

What I'm advocating for would be step two, after the stonewalling, blame shifting, and moving of the goalposts inevitably takes place.


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

Thanks for the feedback so far. To answer some of the questions:



> Are you willing to risk the stability of your marriage to enact change? By that, I don't mean threatening divorce, but something more along the lines of what Asladain mentioned.


I am definitely willing to upset the stability of the marriage to enact change. For most of my life I have been quite a passive person, and look where its got me. I was often scared to upset my wife or rock the boat, but I'm past that now, and realise something is going to have to drastically change to start things heading in the right direction. However I probably wasn't doing enough acts of service until within the last 3-4 months, so I guess this is still fairly new for her. So I'm thinking I will keep doing my best to speak her language for now and see where it gets me, but I won't stay on that course forever, and this is definitely something I will bear in mind. Perhaps I can chalk up every time I do an act of service for her so she can compare our scores. That may annoy her but I'm willing to try a lot more things now.



> Has she experienced sexual trauma in her life? Even though affection is not her love language she at least return your hug?


As far as I'm aware my wife has never had any trauma. She says her mother is quite similar so I think it just runs in the family. Sometimes I get a hug returned, but often she squirms away saying she has things to do. Whenever I hug her in bed I almost always get no response, which makes me feel like a clingy spare part.



> Look at what medications she is on, such as birth control.


She's been on and off birth control over the years, but that's about it. She is somewhat insecure and can be quite anxious at times. She feels like she needs to stay on top of absolutely everything, and can't relax unless she feels like everything is done, and of course there's always something to do! I think her inability to relax has something to do with it.



> And, of course, it may be you, you just do not turn her on.


I know I'm her type, lookswise at least. She often says she could be married to George Clooney and things would be exactly the same.



> Did you hurt her in some way in the past? Maybe cheat on her?


I've never cheated, and I don't want to. I'm the kind of person who needs to feel connected to someone to sleep with them. So right now I don't want anyone else but her. I do worry though sometimes if this could change at some point in the future.



> OP, was your sex life with your wife ever good? Before marriage, or before the children came along? Was your sex life happy and easy and amazing, or was it sort of like it is now?


It started off great, like most couples I guess. She was never into oral, but we had sex regularly for the first couple of years. I tend to go for passion more than kink, and there seemed plenty of that. Although we were in our 20s then and also got drunk together a lot which often seemed to make her much more up for sex. Thinking about it, most of our best sex has been alcohol fuelled. But then things died away, and I've known for a long time that she's not a particularly sexual person. Maybe I should have done something about it 10 years ago but I wasn't confident enough to push for anything else. Then we started trying for kids and for a time there was loads of sex again, and things were ok, but sex has seriously dried up now we have 2 kids. The thing is, she does enjoy it when we have sex (and so do I). It's fairly plain sex, but she orgasms strongly from penetration, and for a brief 5 minutes near the end of sex she seems really into me. She will even hug me afterwards for around 10 minutes while we chat which is like heaven. But then its all over for at least another month.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

You are crowding her. Think about it for a second... You indicate she is insecure, yet you insist on still hugging her and initiating physical contact when you know she doesn't want it.

Are you sure she is the insecure one?
@MEM2020

Mem often says that insecure people will initiate physical contact or I love yous not as a method to help their partner feel better, but in an effort to help themselves feel better. In other words, initiating physical contact or saying I love you to her is a question rather than a statement.

"Do you love me?"

Then when she rejects you, which you know she's doing at some level, it further stokes your insecurities while simultaneously crowding her.

I agree that you should continue your acts of service for now. What I would do differently though is have zero expectations in your needs being met... for now. Stop initiating physical contact. Stop initiating sex. Give her the space to miss you.

I've been through this with my wife. Your situation is very similar to what brought me to this site to begin with.

When you stop initiating the physical contact, your wife will likely ask you what has changed.

"Wife, watching you cringe when I hug you tells me you don't want my touch. So I'm stopping. I don't want you to have to endure something that you don't like, nor do I like the way I feel when it happens."

That's it. Go about your business. Continue to serve her. BUT...set a deadline. If after three months you do not see her begin to seek your touch, then you need to switch to step two.


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## zookeeper (Oct 2, 2012)

You can make it work if both parties are highly motivated to meet the other's need. It will always be hard work.

You have to question if there is enough meat in the other facets of the relationship to make the eternal struggle worthwhile. Personally, my wife's enjoyment of sex is a critical part of mine. If she were simply going through the motions to please me and I knew she was not passionate about it, I would feel worse than if we never had sex at all.


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## LeananSidhe (Feb 6, 2018)

SunCMars said:


> Look at what medications she is on, such as birth control.
> 
> 
> Physical issues, including hormonal changes related to menopause or childbirth, or thyroid problems.
> ...


I get little hearts in my eyes when someone suggests looking into medications. 

Of course people with different love languages can be happy together. It just depends on how much they care about pleasing their partner. My husband doesn’t love giving massages but he does it for me. I don’t love butt sex but I do it for him. 

OP, please have a good long talk with your wife about your needs and wants before doing anything drastic like taking away affection or stopping helping out.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

From the day I married my wife she suffered panic attacks. I knew that. No idea why. I was unaware how bad they were for her when I wasn’t present.

As years went by things happened. I became aware her attacks were very bad at times. I wanted her to get help. She kept saying she would go if I insisted but she would refuse to say anything. 

More bad happened. Finally after ten years of marriage I pressured my wife into family therapy. She refused to say a word. Several counselors later she decided to talk. She lied her ass off. 

A couple psychiatrists later and I found one who used hypnosis. About 6 months after that they decided to share a little of my wife’s past, and her diagnoses with me, verified by two psychiatrists.

So 11 years after we were married I learned my wife had been sexually assaulted starting before she reached puberty. Her preteen years were a horror of abuse.

Do not assume anything just because your wife hasn’t chosen to share with you.

Be well


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

GreenOrb said:


> *I know I’m not perfect, I’ve probably matured quite late in life so until the last couple of years was quite messy and didn’t help out much round the house, however that is now different. I constantly have it on my mind that her love language is acts of service so I am always trying to keep the house tidy, cook for her as often as I can, etc.*


From the OP. 

So, you've been married for 11 years and only started pulling your weight at home a couple years ago. Do you and your wife both work outside the home? 

First, doing your share around the house might not actually be speaking her love language. Imagine you're at the office and you've been mostly slacking while someone else did the majority of your work for the past several years. If you then decide to start doing your job, you probably shouldn't expect a big raise just because you're finally doing your own work. In the same way, she may feel there's a difference between you pulling the weight of an equal partner, and you doing something nice for her that she wouldn't see as a normal part of being in a relationship. Putting your own socks in the hamper instead of leaving them on the floor for her to pick up isn't speaking her love language. That's being an adult human who doesn't have staff. Bringing her coffee in bed in the morning, however, is a nice gesture that might show love to her as an act of service. So, depending on what your newfound domestic attitude actually entails, it may be that you only think you're speaking her love language but are still missing the mark. To find out, you may need to experiment a bit. 

That said, in the roughly 9 years before you started speaking her love language (if you are now), she may have come to see you as more of an addition to the chore list than as a lover. Given your failure to meet her love language for all those years, I'm not sure that the previously suggested plan where you stop meeting her needs until she meets yours will be all that impactful. She's much more likely to view that as simply you returning to your old self. It might not do much to "destabilize" the marriage because that was your "stable" (the normal state of the marriage) for nearly a decade. In other words, you've already spent nearly a decade not speaking her love language and it didn't get you the sex you wanted, so there's not a huge possibility that deciding not to speak it again will have any better results. In fact, that tactic may undo any gains you have made with her, perhaps in reducing resentment that had built up over the years. 

Also, it sounds as if your wife might be quite repressed. If her mother is the same, that's likely a learned behavior from childhood. It may be a product of an ultra-religious and/or ultra-conservative upbringing, or might be the result of being raised by a woman who was raised that way or had suffered sexual trauma of her own. A lot of times, parents' attitudes towards sex, wherever they came from, are passed down to their children. That your wife is much more sexual when she's been drinking speaks to her repression. My guess is that "good girls" don't pursue sex and aren't overtly sexual, while men are "only after one thing" is the soundtrack that plays in her head regarding sex. If your wife is religious, then a pro-sex Christian counselor may be lots of help here. There are even books, such as "Sheet Music", for Christian couples about the joys of sharing a rocking marital sex life. Another tactic might be finding a sex therapist who can help the two of you navigate past your wife's repression. 

Or, you can divorce your wife and look for a partner with whom you might be more sexually compatible. And don't ignore the red flags in future. Anyone who only wants sex when drunk isn't someone who will make a good life-long sexual partner without some serious therapy.


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

> You are crowding her. Think about it for a second... You indicate she is insecure, yet you insist on still hugging her and initiating physical contact when you know she doesn't want it.
> 
> Are you sure she is the insecure one?


This hit home a bit when I read it. I think you're right - I am probably quite insecure myself. I'm not entirely sure why - maybe being something of an introvert and not getting all that much attention from my parents when growing up has something to do with it, but I'm no expert in psychology. I'll take your suggestion to keep serving her but not bother with the physical stuff and see where it gets me. Thanks farsidejunky



> So, you've been married for 11 years and only started pulling your weight at home a couple years ago. Do you and your wife both work outside the home?


Rowan, your whole post made a lot of sense. I work full time and my wife works part time. For the last 5 years I've had a stressful job with long hours a long way from home, although I earn good money. I probably haven't quite pulled my weight as much as I should but by the end of the week I was generally exhausted. This has actually now changed. I work much nearer home which is giving me the chance to put as much as I can into home life and things my wife might appreciate. I take your point around picking up the socks vs getting her a coffee. In fact the other day I tried to hug her in bed in the morning and she just said she wanted to a cup of tea which at the time annoyed me. But per farsidejunky I was clearly just being needy and putting myself before her. Feels like it is time just to do the things she would want me to do and put the physical stuff aside for a time.



> Also, it sounds as if your wife might be quite repressed.


Almost certainly. Generally vanilla sex and she hates talking about it. I'm not sure why. She's not religious, so I'm guessing its just a learned behaviour from her parents maybe, or can it just be innate? Does it do me any good to try and find out why?


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

You did not address me, but I do have experience which may be applicable to your question. 

I admit my wife is much more hurt than most people hear about, and nobody is someone else, so her experience or attitude of course not directly applicable.

My wife has only tangentially spoken to me twice about her experiences. Once in 1985 when she authorized her psychiatrist to tell me about it, and again in 1992 when they had a major breakthrough in her therapy. Both times were just a few sentences.

At some other time I expressed the fact I felt she could confide in me if she wanted to. She told me to shut the **** up. Sweetly, but it was final. 

Mary will not talk about it. If I tried to find out I am sure it would damage our relationship badly.

Personally I suggest if you would like her to pursue discovering why she is repressed that you do not try to find out, yourself. Encourage her to go to a professional if she would like to.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

GreenOrb said:


> Hi folks. I’ve been thinking about posting for a long time so thought it was time to finally gave it a go. I’m hoping to get a bit of perspective into my marriage, since I’ve done a lot of thinking and reading over the last few years but never been able to talk to anyone or get anyone else’s opinion.
> 
> So, I’m a married man living with a wife who gives me virtually no affection and very little sex.
> 
> ...


*Yes! And it's rather indicative that the two of you need to voluntarily seek out and embrace marriage, as well as sexual counseling, to get to the heart of where the two of you are experiencing problems!*


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

WilliamM said:


> You did not address me, but I do have experience which may be applicable to your question.
> 
> I admit my wife is much more hurt than most people hear about, and nobody is someone else, so her experience or attitude of course not directly applicable.
> 
> ...


I do sometimes think my wife should talk to someone and have suggested it on occasion. She seems to get quote anxious about life in general and if there is something in the past that may help resolve it. My gut instinct says there isn't but you could well be right. Based on what you're saying I'll probably not push the subject myself.

Thanks to all for the advice already given. I've learned a few things about myself already today that I haven't got from reading countless books, articles, forums, etc.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

farsidejunky said:


> You are crowding her. Think about it for a second... You indicate she is insecure, yet you insist on still hugging her and initiating physical contact when you know she doesn't want it.
> 
> Are you sure she is the insecure one?
> @MEM2020
> ...


what farside said in this post about you likely being insecure and flooding her is likely correct. but, i think the solution mentioned by itself will work to fix it. it needs a little more...



GreenOrb said:


> This hit home a bit when I read it. I think you're right - I am probably quite insecure myself. I'm not entirely sure why - maybe being something of an introvert and not getting all that much attention from my parents when growing up has something to do with it, but I'm no expert in psychology. I'll take your suggestion to keep serving her but not bother with the physical stuff and see where it gets me. Thanks farsidejunky
> 
> 
> Rowan, your whole post made a lot of sense. I work full time and my wife works part time. For the last 5 years I've had a stressful job with long hours a long way from home, although I earn good money. I probably haven't quite pulled my weight as much as I should but by the end of the week I was generally exhausted. This has actually now changed. I work much nearer home which is giving me the chance to put as much as I can into home life and things my wife might appreciate. I take your point around picking up the socks vs getting her a coffee. In fact the other day I tried to hug her in bed in the morning and she just said she wanted to a cup of tea which at the time annoyed me. But per farsidejunky I was clearly just being needy and putting myself before her. Feels like it is time just to do the things she would want me to do and put the physical stuff aside for a time.
> ...



if you really want her to wake up, you will need to equate her level of effort to her level of return. so, i would suggest
you blatantly state to your wife that affection is your love language. while it is obvious that she doesn't like it, it doesn't have to make her feel the same way it makes you feel in order for her to make you feel loved. so, if she wants to keep having all the help that makes her feel loved and cared for, at YOUR inconvenience, then she had better learn to show affection at HER inconvenience. 

if she wants a husband who will find a way to show enthusiasm in speaking her love language, then she had better be a wife that will enthusiastically meet his. 

when you put it that way, you get your point across, you are clear, and there is nothing weak about it. you are plainly stating your boundaries: you will give effort for effort, or no effort for no effort, but you will not give effort for no effort. 

the funny thing is that if you put it this way, you will give your wife the power to decide how your marriage goes, but will be doing it solely through something you have complete control of: your actions. since it is entirely based on how YOU will respond to her, there isn't a damned thing she can do to argue it. she can choose to give you no effort if she wants, but it will be very poignantly clear(to both of you) that she would also be CHOOSING to get no effort from you. 

and then, you just stick to your word. if she complains about it, remind her that she knows exactly how to change it the second she so desires. if she shows effort, return effort for her, and make it clear that you are doing so because you appreciate the effort she is making. so if she watches a movie with you, cuddled up to you on the couch, tell her "wife, you just spent two hours cuddled up to me while watching a movie. i really enjoyed that, thank you. because i appreciate your efforts, im going to do XYZ for you to make things easier on you and try and make you feel as good as you just made me feel". whenever she does something you enjoy, state your appreciation of it and find something that you can do for her in return. 

there is nothing weak or clingy about this stance. it is not very likely to make her feel overwhelmed either, since she will inherently be in control of how it plays out. after all, you wont be bothering her with those "annoying" covert requests for intimacy. you just also wont be doing the things she likes, until she goes about doing the things to change that.

remember, you dont just want her to give you empty displays of affection. you dont want the half hearted hug. you want her to be enthusiastic about it. she doesnt want someone who sulks all day while doing stuff for her, whining at her feet like a puppy. she wants someone who just does it because they appreciate her. the above strategy is a way to encourage both.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

As'laDain said:


> people with different love languages absolutely can make happy couples. so long as they are both willing to speak their partners love languages.
> 
> 
> ever tried telling your wife that you will take her greatest love language(which you said was acts of service) and you will speak that love language to her as often as she speaks yours to you?
> ...



I agree with your premise that a mixed love language couple can be a happy couple if they learn to speak their partner's love languages, but not your technique.

My wife's primary love languages are Acts of Service and Quality time. Mine are touch and words of affirmation (praise).

It took a long time to learn how to speak my wife's love languages to her in a meaningful way that made her feel loved and cherished. It took trial and error. I tried chores, and such and she just felt that was my doing my fair share of the housework. 

Ultimately, by accident, one morning I got up early went downstairs and got myself a cup of coffee and decided I wanted to drink it in the warmth of bed. I brought a second cup of coffee with me and presented it to my wife, while I drank my coffee. She was thrilled, this was to her finally an ACT OF SERVICE that made her feel loved and cherished. Cool, It became a ritual, where I bring her coffee every morning. Now we also talk while waking up and discuss what we will be doing in the day. That way my wife gets both an act of service and quality time to start her day. 

At the end of the day we do something slightly different. My wife feels that she defines herself as a good wife by cooking me a hot, home cooked meal at dinner. I play along and help her as her assistant. Mostly I make the salad, or stir things or chop veggies for her to allow her to throw herself more into her cooking. Sometimes, I just pour her a glass of wine. Whatever, I am the assistant and providing her with support so he feels great about showing her love. 

Then at dinner we talk about her day and my day. I work hard at remembering what she said she was planning on doing from the morning so she knows that I care about her and what she does. This makes her feel loved and cherished at both the beginning and end of the day.

As to touch, touch is not sex! No where in Chapman's book does he describe sex as part of a love language. Touch is touch, the laying on of hands, the need for human bonding, physical and emotional closeness. Yes, sex and touch can be intertwined as in it is hard to have sex with someone without touching them, but you can get a massage, hold hands and do lots of stuff without sex. 

Doing a passive aggressive tit for tat or if you have sex with me I will make you feel loved and cherished by providing you with an act of service, sort of screams out at me of Glover's No More Mr. Nice Guy's concept of a covert contract or even an overt contract.


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## Steve2.0 (Dec 11, 2017)

To be honest, love languages by default do not match.
Men are ready for sex with a sexy visual or brush of the crotch. Women need so many opposite things to get turned on.

Someone said it perfectly:
Men want sex to feel intimate with their partner 
and
Women want to be intimate with their partner to want sex

All i can say is you need to start reading some more books that are geared towards your problems:
No More Mr. Nice Guy, Hold on to your Nuts, and Married Man Sex Life Primer

Go buy them now, go read them now... thank me later


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

And do remember to experiment to find what may please your wife. My wife and I had to experiment quite a bit. None of the books cover the territory we found ourselves in.

For instance those love languages thing. We are nearly perfectly matched. But we still had to stumble our way blindly to find what really worked. Those have huge holes in them for anyone not smack in the norm.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

Something Mary pointed out about this Love Languages thing is it's all about Me! Me! Me! There is nothing in it about what a person wants to do for their partner, only what a person wants out of their partner. She doesn't like it.

For instance, while we both match up extremely well on it, with both of us getting a 12 on physical touch and an 8 on quality time, there is nothing to account for what she needs to do to feel loved. Yet for her that is a huge part of her needs.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Leanan,
You might want to read his post again. *Subtracting something your partner dislikes* is not a punishment. 




LeananSidhe said:


> I get little hearts in my eyes when someone suggests looking into medications.
> 
> Of course people with different love languages can be happy together. It just depends on how much they care about pleasing their partner. My husband doesn’t love giving massages but he does it for me. I don’t love butt sex but I do it for him.
> 
> OP, please have a good long talk with your wife about your needs and wants before doing anything drastic like taking away affection or stopping helping out.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This is a tough one. They seem very, very far apart. 

And he has let this go for a long, long time. And I get the sense that - G2 doesn’t want to get a divorce, which is why she tolerates sex once every 6-7 weeks. But she doesn’t get much emotional payoff from making Green happy. 

She knows he is pretty unhappy about this - and yet she seems quite determined to keep the status quo as is. 

And it isn’t clear if she dislikes hugs, etc because she perceives them as an attempt to initiate sex, or if she genuinely dislikes being touched. 

One is fixable, the other isn’t. 




As'laDain said:


> what farside said in this post about you likely being insecure and flooding her is likely correct. but, i think the solution mentioned by itself will work to fix it. it needs a little more...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

i knew there would be some people who would balk at what i am saying. 

it doesn't really matter what the reason for the mismatch is. if one person is not willing to speak the love language the other needs, then one partner is not going to be happy. and that unhappiness will bleed into the relationship.

someone actually named the strategy correctly, though they seemed to have a very poor understanding of it. in fact, i would say they dont understand it at all...

of course, most people dont even realize that a tit for tat strategy is an inherently cooperative strategy. you start by cooperating, and then just match the other persons last actions. cooperation is responded to with more cooperation. an uncooperative move is responded to with an uncooperative move. 

when two groups or entities no longer trust each other, the most effective strategy to bring about the end of the conflict is tit for tat.


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

Thanks for the continued feedback.

As an aside, it always surprises me how a blazing row seems to completely clear the air. We went to bed very hacked off with each other a couple of nights back, but we got on great yesterday. It reminded me that I am with someone who I can still laugh and joke with and completely be myself around. While the physical side is very important to me, without the basic raw friendship you don't have anything in the first place. As I left for work this morning my wife even nuzzled up to me and let me hug and kiss her on the head, very unusual behaviour for her.




> All i can say is you need to start reading some more books that are geared towards your problems:
> No More Mr. Nice Guy, Hold on to your Nuts, and Married Man Sex Life Primer


Thanks Steve2.0. I've got 2 of these books but read them a long time ago and completely forgotten their contents. Now I've got a bit more time on my hands I'll give them another go.



> For instance those love languages thing. We are nearly perfectly matched. But we still had to stumble our way blindly to find what really worked.


This makes sense to me. In the last 6 months I've been trying to do everything I can round the house to make my wife happy, but I'm now realising that's not what she wants. I think she wants me to bring her coffee, cook her meals, run her a nice bath etc. Our communication has not been great in the last few years, so I need to just sit down with her and ask.

The discussion on tit for tat has been very helpful and helping me form a plan. I've worked my butt off over the last 5-6 years, done well in my career and earned pretty good. As I said previously I've also grown up a lot in that time and know much more about myself and what I want from life. But all the hard work has meant I have probably not done enough in my wife's eyes to show that I care about her. So I think for the shortish term (ie, next 6 months) I need to keep going with the acts of service to show I actually care about doing the things she wants me to do. I'm also going to have to talk about this regularly with her to make sure I'm doing the things she appreciates. She's not a particularly lovey dovey person (she never says "I love you") and doesn't like talking about our relationship or sex, but I feel I need to push this now. She also thinks talking about these things implies there is something wrong with our marriage which I think she still has a hard time facing up to, but to me it is apparent that discussing this stuff regularly is vital to maintaining any long term relationship, well a good one anyway. Maybe a sit down with her every couple of weeks to discuss our relationship and how things are going. What has worked for other people in the past?

After 6 months or so I'll have a much firmer footing. If I'm still getting nowhere with the physical side I'll be able to say so and she won't have any comeback like she potentially does now, ie, at the moment she can still say you've been better the last few months but I've still felt unloved for the last few years. Then I could start playing tit for tat. All of a sudden she will have something to lose if I stop making her meals, stop getting her coffee, etc. And I think I'm being reasonable and willing to compromise for the good of our relationship. Sure, I'd like to be with someone who wanted sex 2-3 times a week and has no hangups. But I am where I am, she's still my best friend, so I need to make the best of it.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

I always approached sex as something we both wanted, and just went for it, and it worked fine for us.

But my policy was always communication. I would communicate as a first go to action on anything I thought we had an issue about.

Be sure you communicate.

Of course in my case that didn’t work well. I learned a couple things. As other women have mentioned they like and hope, my wife expected, demanded, I had to know what she wanted without her ever telling me in any way. So communication did not help.

Besides which my wife is mentally ill, which it’s own world of issues.

Good luck


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

When I finished posting that I thought about it a bit, and then commented to my wife I bet she’s proud of the fact she’s never told me what her needs are. I only know from trial and error. 

She reads the stuff I post here. Her only comment was to ask me if I noticed how high the creek out back is this morning.

I’ve seen the sentiment several times. People want their spouse to just know without being told. And in some people’s case the spouse won’t say, no matter what.

Ah, well.

Good luck!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

GO,
When you have time, read your thread again. Slowly. It is classic nice guy stuff to say: I must have xyz, followed shortly by: well it would be nice to have xyz, but I have abc and that’s pretty good. 

Of course being best friends is huge. But by saying that is what you have, you are almost conceding defeat from the start.

And this whole 6 month plan is a guaranteed fail. Your wife already loves you. She knows you have worked hard at work. 

Two things need to happen:
- You have to keep relationship talks to less than thirty seconds. Not joking. You will discover that thirty seconds is a very long time IF you have a plan. 
- Watch how this works:

Talk one: We need to improve the marriage. I’m leading by example. You need to do your bit. 

That’s it, that is literally all you say. If she plays dumb - and it will be playing dumb - she may say she has no idea what you mean. If she does, you respond by keeping it stripped down to what it is, which is:

There needs to be more physical contact in this marriage. This no contact thing is not working for me. 

———————-
And by the way GO, you never said whether this whole aversion to touch, to hugs and so forth, was present during your early years. That is an important question. If it was, I think you are toast. Because that makes it a core trait. You can push on a string, it just doesn’t work. 

And no offense - but I don’t believe you are willing to destabilize the marriage. Most folks who write the way you do are solid analysts, who are also non combatants. It’s partly why you’ve let this go for so long. 




GreenOrb said:


> Thanks for the continued feedback.
> 
> As an aside, it always surprises me how a blazing row seems to completely clear the air. We went to bed very hacked off with each other a couple of nights back, but we got on great yesterday. It reminded me that I am with someone who I can still laugh and joke with and completely be myself around. While the physical side is very important to me, without the basic raw friendship you don't have anything in the first place. As I left for work this morning my wife even nuzzled up to me and let me hug and kiss her on the head, very unusual behaviour for her.
> 
> ...


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

GreenOrb said:


> Thanks for the continued feedback.
> 
> As an aside, it always surprises me how a blazing row seems to completely clear the air. We went to bed very hacked off with each other a couple of nights back, but we got on great yesterday. It reminded me that I am with someone who I can still laugh and joke with and completely be myself around. While the physical side is very important to me, without the basic raw friendship you don't have anything in the first place. As I left for work this morning my wife even nuzzled up to me and let me hug and kiss her on the head, very unusual behaviour for her.
> 
> ...



its not going to work. you dont understand the point of tit for tat at all. you seem to think its about proving who is right. 

well, good luck. after you have kicked this can half a year to a year down the road, be sure to stop back by and let us know how it went.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

MEM2020 said:


> GO,
> When you have time, read your thread again. Slowly. It is classic nice guy stuff to say: I must have xyz, followed shortly by: well it would be nice to have xyz, but I have abc and that’s pretty good.
> 
> Of course being best friends is huge. But by saying that is what you have, you are almost conceding defeat from the start.
> ...


if my experience is anything to speak from, this does not matter. my wife was adverse to touch from the get go. she isn't any more. nowadays, she craves it from me.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

If one is going to take a path of willing destabilization, one must be prepared for the outcome, one cannot play brinkmanship from a position of pre-accepted capitulation, you may not be happy now but you most certainly will not like the new standard if your heart isn't into "Talk one"...

You will have a lot of hard days ahead if you pursue this... finding your calm early will save you from a large percentage of persistent suffering (some you will not shake off at all until you learn balance) and your children need you on a middle path as your home dynamics change.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

That is good to know. 




As'laDain said:


> if my experience is anything to speak from, this does not matter. my wife was adverse to touch from the get go. she isn't any more. nowadays, she craves it from me.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

De prioritize. Destabilize. Be less available. And chatting with other women wouldn’t hurt. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

MEM2020 said:


> And no offense - but I don’t believe you are willing to destabilize the marriage. Most folks who write the way you do are solid analysts, who are also non combatants. It’s partly why you’ve let this go for so long.


None taken, you're mainly right. I know I'm a "nice guy" and tend to analyse things to the nth degree.



MEM2020 said:


> GO,
> Two things need to happen:
> - You have to keep relationship talks to less than thirty seconds. Not joking. You will discover that thirty seconds is a very long time IF you have a plan.
> - Watch how this works:
> ...


Ok.



MEM2020 said:


> GO,
> And by the way GO, you never said whether this whole aversion to touch, to hugs and so forth, was present during your early years. That is an important question. If it was, I think you are toast. Because that makes it a core trait. You can push on a string, it just doesn’t work.


Looking back I guess I knew from the outset that she wasn't that physical a person, but there was still plenty of it in the first 4-5 years. We would sit on the sofa and hug while watching TV, we always held hands walking down the street, and would often hug in bed and chat just before going to sleep. Most of that doesn't happen now.


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

As'laDain said:


> its not going to work. you dont understand the point of tit for tat at all. you seem to think its about proving who is right.
> 
> well, good luck. after you have kicked this can half a year to a year down the road, be sure to stop back by and let us know how it went.


So would you suggest going with MEM2020's 30 second chat?


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

GreenOrb said:


> So would you suggest going with MEM2020's 30 second chat?


yes. basically, talk, state what your position is, then state what you are going to do about it. then dont argue about it. dont entertain the inevitable accusations about being unfair. just state your position and state what you will do. tell her that if she wants to cooperate, you will listen to ideas, but you will still follow your plan. 

then you start by doing something to speak her love language and tell her that her response will dictate how you proceed. if she is obviously showing effort, then return it with effort of your own. 

listen to what she says. if she is showing you effort and you return it by doing one of the things she tells you that she wants from you, but then decides that it didnt make her happy enough to merit a positive response to you, then dont respond with effort. if she does something for you that you mention, and YOU decide that it didnt make you happy enough to respond with more effort in kind, then dont expect HER to do more for you either. 

the point is not to make each other feel better. it is to provide a reason for BOTH of you to start cooperating with each other. when that becomes a habit, then you two will naturally enjoy each others company more and will feel closer. 

but first you gotta get BOTH of you to start DOING stuff for each other. even if you are both woefully ignorant of each other, the effort will go a LONG way.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

or you can spend the next six months building up resentment, in which case you will be less inclined to cooperate with her.

your choice.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

"Wife, I will give as much care and concern about your feelings about this as you do about my feelings on physical intimacy."

If she is deliberately avoiding intimacy with you, for whatever reason, this statement alone will be an eye opener.

See how that works?

Or:

"Why would I continue to give effort towards someone who clearly doesn't like me?"

Her response will be likely be something along the lines of "I do like you" or "I love you".

Your response:

"It's hard to hear your words when your actions speak so loudly."


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

Steve2.0 said:


> Someone said it perfectly:
> Men want sex to feel intimate with their partner
> and
> Women want to be intimate with their partner to want sex


I was the romantic, song-writer type who previously believed that, but not after observing relationships (including my own). I'd even surmise that that there are as many men who desire a romantic type of emotional intimacy as there are women who do.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Steve1000 said:


> I was the romantic, song-writer type who previously believed that, but not after observing relationships (including my own). I'd even surmise that that there are as many men who desire a romantic type of emotional intimacy as there are women who do.


absolutely true. for me, that kind of closeness comes from a partner who displays, for whatever reason, a willingness to work with me. to cooperate. you know, the partnership. far more important than sex. 

in fact, i would say its probably my biggest turn on.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

As'laDain said:


> then you start by doing something to speak her love language and tell her that her response will dictate how you proceed. .


Did your wife take the quiz to determine her love language?


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Steve1000 said:


> Did your wife take the quiz to determine her love language?


yes, but it was damned near useless. she will take the quiz, but her answers are skewed because she constantly has in her head an idea of what she thinks she is supposed to be. it causes her to answer untruthfully, even though she does not intend to.

in order to figure out what she actually wants, i had to basically just ask her when she was drinking and in a good mood. i would ask her to spell out a perfect day for me, tell me what i did in this fantasy day that made it so great. 

the answers did not match up with the test results. 

also, everything is in constant flux with my wife. what she is needing one day may be completely different from what she is needing the next. which i think is normal. hence why i ask her often to tell me what a perfect day for her would look like. i then pick out the elements of her story that cause her eyes to light up and find a way to make it happen. nowadays, she doesnt have to drink to tell me what she wants. its just a habit now.

when we first got married, my wife refused sex, didnt take care of herself, treated me like crap, and generally wouldnt cooperate with me at all. nowadays, she will often wear something sexy just to entice me, will not deny sex at all(in fact, she often initiates), cooperates with me, and generally does as much as she can to make me feel loved. 

she does all of that because i make it worth her time to do so.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

As'laDain said:


> yes, but it was damned near useless. she will take the quiz, but her answers are skewed because she constantly has in her head an idea of what she thinks she is supposed to be. it causes her to answer untruthfully, even though she does not intend to.
> 
> in order to figure out what she actually wants, i had to basically just ask her when she was drinking and in a good mood. i would ask her to spell out a perfect day for me, tell me what i did in this fantasy day that made it so great.
> 
> ...


Your results are pretty interesting. I think that if I asked my wife to take a love-language quiz, she would think it's silly and have no motivation to do so.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Steve1000 said:


> Your results are pretty interesting. I think that if I asked my wife to take a love-language quiz, she would think it's silly and have no motivation to do so.


in my opinion, the questions are poorly worded. i saw them as inefficient, which is something i have little patience for. even with sex, i had little patience for the professional approach. they were talking years and i had months, so i just looked at her porn and found out what turned her on. 

imagine my surprise when it turned out to be women! lol, fortunately for me, there were other things that turned her on that i WAS able to do for her. 

eventually we figured it out.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

@GreenOrb,

You've mentioned the reasons you love your wife, your needs, and what you wish she would do for you in the relationship. 

What does your wife say she loves about you? What makes her want to stay in the marriage? In other words, what needs does she say you meet? What does she say is missing, if anything?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Steve1000 said:


> I was the romantic, song-writer type who previously believed that, but not after observing relationships (including my own). *I'd even surmise that that there are as many men who desire a romantic type of emotional intimacy as there are women who do.*


Agreed! When my BF and I first got together (almost two years ago), he said that he kissed me, held my hand, and the like because it was what he wanted, but it wasn't something that he really WANTED or enjoyed doing. He was actually trying to maintain his emotional distance, because he had convinced himself that he never wanted a girlfriend or a relationship again, as a defense mechanism to keep himself from ever being hurt by a woman again. But I knew that's all it was, a defense mechanism.

Fast forward to now, and he's been taking down these defensive walls a little bit at a time over the last two years. Not all of his defenses are down, it's a long process, but we've made really good progress together. And now he loves to kiss and cuddle and hold hands and all of that, and the emotional intimacy continues to grow. He definitely wants a romantic type of emotional intimacy, but the vulnerability scares him. I'd say that my BF is an extreme example, but I would imagine that there are a lot of men with similar feelings, which causes them to shy away from romantic emotional intimacy, fueling the illusion/false belief that men don't want romantic emotional intimacy.

it's really quite a catch 22, because it puts men (and their partners) in a difficult position. If she doesn't get the romantic emotional intimacy because her partner is employing defense mechanisms, it actually INCREASES the chances that she will leave (due to needs not being met); therefore, employing these defense mechanisms actually increase the chance of pain and hurt that the defense mechanisms were meant to prevent.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Steve1000 said:


> Your results are pretty interesting. I think that if I asked my wife to take a love-language quiz, she would think it's silly and have no motivation to do so.


You don't need your spouse to take the quiz. I think the quiz is the least important part of the book.

The most important part is accepting the idea that Love Languages exist and that your spouse's love languages might be very different than your own. Once you understand the concepts and can be on the lookout for them, unless you are completely oblivious it will become obvious over time what are your spouse's love languages. In fact, once you read the descriptions of the languages, it may jump out at you what languages speak to your spouse.

In most sexless couples, the LD has certain things that they tend to nag the HD about doing or not doing. Think about their nagging. What language is it addressing? Speak to them in their language.

Then implement what @MEM2020, @As'laDain and @farsidejunky are suggesting.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Speaking in general terms here with regard to the top level question posed. 

Yes. Definitely.

Think of it this way. When you give a gift, you don't give what you want, you give what the recipient will want. You take delight in the joy they demonstrate when you get them something they truly appreciate. 

So it is with our actions toward those we love. No matter how much I may like physical touch, if my wife prefers acts of service, that's what I'm going to do. She's happier and, in the end, so am I since it's her joy that motivates me. Nothing puts a smile on my face like there being a smile on hers.

Of course, for all this to work, there are two conditions that have to be met. First, you have to actually know what each other responds to. You can read the book and take the test and that can be very helpful. Or you can just be attentive to each other and make mental note of what draws the best response. This doesn't take a PhD in psychology or couples counseling. All one need do is pay attention and tune in. Which leads me to the second condition: both partners must be willing and able to do just that: to set aside ego and preconceived ideas and truly look for the partner's genuine responses and be empathetic to the partner's feelings.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

As'laDain said:


> i knew there would be some people who would balk at what i am saying.
> 
> it doesn't really matter what the reason for the mismatch is. if one person is not willing to speak the love language the other needs, then one partner is not going to be happy. and that unhappiness will bleed into the relationship.
> 
> ...


As a former student of some game theory. Your description of starting out cooperatively and then matching your opponent's play brought back memories. My recollection was that you should have two wins in you side prior to again offering a "win-win" opportunity to your opponent and then continue until the first hint of the opponent doing a win-loose. At that point you need to do win-loose until you have two wins then go back to win-win and see if they understand the new rules.

However, you are assuming a risk-neutral, rational opponent. Real life marital relationships are not always so clean and clear.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Young at Heart said:


> As a former student of some game theory. Your description of starting out cooperatively and then matching your opponent's play brought back memories. My recollection was that you should have two wins in you side prior to again offering a "win-win" opportunity to your opponent and then continue until the first hint of the opponent doing a win-loose. At that point you need to do win-loose until you have two wins then go back to win-win and see if they understand the new rules.
> 
> However, you are assuming a risk-neutral, rational opponent. Real life marital relationships are not always so clean and clear.


Not that I subscribe to this exact approach (perhaps similar), but it doesn't really matter what her reaction is. 

1. You do no set this trajectory unless you are willing to allow her to walk away.

2. If she does not up her game, you know she either does not love you any longer, or loves her resentment more than she loves you. Either way is a no go.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Rowan said:


> From the OP.
> 
> So, you've been married for 11 years and only started pulling your weight at home a couple years ago. Do you and your wife both work outside the home?
> 
> ...


This was so well written @Rowan and spot on. I agree there's not much the OP can do if his wife was always non affectionate and I also agree that halting the acts of service that he's only recently started doing after avoiding them for the majority of their marriage, will have little to no effect. She may shrug her shoulders and think it was all a fluke. 

OP, you are starting out with a zero balance "acts of service" account. You need to add to it for a while before you can start making withdrawals for it to be noticeable. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Young at Heart said:


> As a former student of some game theory. Your description of starting out cooperatively and then matching your opponent's play brought back memories. My recollection was that you should have two wins in you side prior to again offering a "win-win" opportunity to your opponent and then continue until the first hint of the opponent doing a win-loose. At that point you need to do win-loose until you have two wins then go back to win-win and see if they understand the new rules.
> 
> However, you are assuming a risk-neutral, rational opponent. Real life marital relationships are not always so clean and clear.


tit for tat tat was the ultimate strategy to avoid a downward spiral. in which case, the player would periodically let one uncooperative move slide, and then respond with an uncooperative response after they have received two. 

in relationships, it works no different. you just have to translate things into human motivation. 

not hard for anyone who is paying attention.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

As'laDain said:


> tit for tat tat was the ultimate strategy to avoid a downward spiral. in which case, the player would periodically let one uncooperative move slide, and then respond with an uncooperative response after they have received two.
> 
> in relationships, it works no different. you just have to translate things into human motivation.
> 
> not hard for anyone who is paying attention.


Tit for tat works with some, it fails miserably with others. It's a high risk strategy. Just as with every other strategy, the success/failure is mostly dependant on the target audience. It's the golden token theory. OP needs to find his wife's golden token. Not saying tit for tat will fail, but maybe he should start with strategies with lower risk involved. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Lila said:


> Tit for tat works with some, it fails miserably with others. It's a high risk strategy. Just as with every other strategy, the success/failure is mostly dependant on the target audience. It's the golden token theory. OP needs to find his wife's golden token. Not saying tit for tat will fail, but maybe he should start with strategies with lower risk involved.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


it isn't a high risk strategy. it is actually the lowest risk strategy that can be used in _high risk_ situations. in a good marriage, one partner can employ a tit for tat strategy without saying anything and nobody would notice. in an absolutely terrible marriage(like mine was), one partner can employ a tit for tat strategy and the other partner will immediately see the cooperative moves. 

because there wasn't any cooperation before.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

FeministInPink said:


> but I would imagine that there are a lot of men with similar feelings, which causes them to shy away from romantic emotional intimacy, fueling the illusion/false belief that men don't want romantic emotional intimacy.


I have another experience that caused me to shy away from that. When I first met my wife, I had no expectations of dating her as we lived in different faraway cities. After getting to know her for a couple of weeks as friends, I returned home and discovered that I couldn't stop thinking about her, so I told her that I really liked her. Three months after communicating, I again flew across the country to visit her as a date. As she met me at the airport, I wanted her to be comfortable so after a hug at the airport, I didn't push for more bodily contact. I gave her a letter that a wrote about why she was special enough to make me change my mind about being involved in a long distance relationship. I reserved a hotel near her home and respected her decision to go home with the same taxi. I told her that I looked forward to see her the next day. 

Sounds fine so far, right? 

I later learned that she felt so disappointed that night that I didn't show her how much I physically desired her. Much later I discovered that the night before I flew to see her for ten days, she had a date with another man that she had met on-line. After their dinner, he texted her that next time, he was going to "kiss her all over her body". His comment was received positively. 

After that experience, I really felt that I was so stupid (I should have known better by that age) and I would be very hesitant to show someone that I was so interested in them.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> You don't need your spouse to take the quiz. I think the quiz is the least important part of the book.
> 
> The most important part is accepting the idea that Love Languages exist and that your spouse's love languages might be very different than your own. Once you understand the concepts and can be on the lookout for them, unless you are completely oblivious it will become obvious over time what are your spouse's love languages. In fact, once you read the descriptions of the languages, it may jump out at you what languages speak to your spouse.
> 
> ...


Thank you. I have read about the five love languages a few years ago, and I think that my wife's primary language is "acts of service". I admit that I am prejudice that this language means that he/she is not passionate about his/her spouse. My wife does care about me, especially after we got married, but after the horrible beginning we had, I needed a somewhat more passionate/romantic marriage with her to fully get past all that had happened.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

As'laDain said:


> it isn't a high risk strategy. it is actually the lowest risk strategy that can be used in _high risk_ situations. in a good marriage, one partner can employ a tit for tat strategy without saying anything and nobody would notice. in an absolutely terrible marriage(like mine was), one partner can employ a tit for tat strategy and the other partner will immediately see the cooperative moves.
> 
> because there wasn't any cooperation before.


But you're assuming that OP has been speaking his wife's love language all along. He hasn't. He believes his marriage is good but if he's only been delivering on the acts of service for a short while, then stopping would be interpreted by his wife as returning to status quo. 

In my opinion, consistency with speaking her love language over a significant period of time (say 10% of their time together) will probably earn OP more than tit for tat. Let his actions show that he is undoubtably a changed man. That this is not a fluke.


Eta: I'm bringing this up because I used tit for tat in my marriage to epic failure. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Lila said:


> But you're assuming that OP has been speaking his wife's love language all along. He hasn't. He believes his marriage is good but if he's only been delivering on the acts of service for a short while, then stopping would be interpreted by his wife as returning to status quo.
> 
> In my opinion, consistency with speaking her love language over a significant period of time (say 10% of their time together) will probably earn OP more than tit for tat. Let his actions show that he is undoubtably a changed man. That this is not a fluke.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


undoubtably a changed man? by doing what? more of the same? 

besides, we don't even know if her love language actually _is_ acts of service. 

he has been doing stuff around the house to help her out for MONTHS. it takes less than a single month to create a new habit. either he has NOT been speaking her love language, or she doesn't have any desire to speak his. he has already shown plenty of consistency IF he has been speaking her love language. 

if she doesnt care, then he needs to find out so he can rip off the band aid. if she is simply refusing to speak his languages for whatever reason, after seeing him make the effort, then she needs to either **** or get off the pot. 

its not like he betrayed her. its not like she has some emotional trauma that he brought upon her. he just worked too much and was "too messy" for her tastes. but changing that hasn't gotten him anywhere. another six months of the same is not likely to change anything either.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

As'laDain said:


> undoubtably a changed man? by doing what? more of the same?
> 
> besides, we don't even know if her love language actually _is_ acts of service.
> 
> he has been doing stuff around the house to help her out for MONTHS. it takes less than a single month to create a new habit. either he has NOT been speaking her love language, or she doesn't have any desire to speak his. he has already shown plenty of consistency IF he has been speaking her love language.


We can only base our advice on the information provided. He believes his wife's love language is Acts of Service therefore my advice is based on his analysis. 

He's been with her for 17 years, married for 11 and by his own admission only recently started speaking her love language.



> However I probably wasn't doing enough acts of service until within the last 3-4 months, so I guess this is still fairly new for her.






As'laDain said:


> if she doesnt care, then he needs to find out so he can rip off the band aid. if she is simply refusing to speak his languages for whatever reason, after seeing him make the effort, then she needs to either **** or get off the pot.
> 
> its not like he betrayed her. its not like she has some emotional trauma that he brought upon her. he just worked too much and was "too messy" for her tastes. but changing that hasn't gotten him anywhere. another six months of the same is not likely to change anything either.


Now you are judging one set of needs or one person's love language as more important than the other. That's not how this work. 

There's more that destroys relationships than infidelity or abuse. More often than not, relationships die by a thousand cuts. 

I'm sure OP and his wife love each other very much but it's easy to feel beat down and cynical, on both sides. OP is here now. He's admitted his side of the street needs works He should put in the work to fix it before he tries bringing in ultimatums and tit for tat strategies that will have minimal effect otherwise. 

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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Lila said:


> But you're assuming that OP has been speaking his wife's love language all along. He hasn't. He believes his marriage is good but if he's only been delivering on the acts of service for a short while, then stopping would be interpreted by his wife as returning to status quo.
> 
> In my opinion, consistency with speaking her love language over a significant period of time (say 10% of their time together) will probably earn OP more than tit for tat. Let his actions show that he is undoubtably a changed man. That this is not a fluke.
> 
> ...


You weren't prepared to walk away, Lila.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

farsidejunky said:


> You weren't prepared to walk away, Lila.


And the OP is not either. Just saying. That s why I'm bringing up other options.



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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Steve1000 said:


> I have another experience that caused me to shy away from that. When I first met my wife, I had no expectations of dating her as we lived in different faraway cities. After getting to know her for a couple of weeks as friends, I returned home and discovered that I couldn't stop thinking about her, so I told her that I really liked her. Three months after communicating, I again flew across the country to visit her as a date. As she met me at the airport, I wanted her to be comfortable so after a hug at the airport, I didn't push for more bodily contact. I gave her a letter that a wrote about why she was special enough to make me change my mind about being involved in a long distance relationship. I reserved a hotel near her home and respected her decision to go home with the same taxi. I told her that I looked forward to see her the next day.
> 
> Sounds fine so far, right?
> 
> ...


Yet another instance in which stupid cultural stereotypes cause men and women to misunderstand one another. Society teaches us that men a "animals" with a continual hard-on, and if he isn't trying to get into a woman's panties immediately, he must not be into her, and it's her role to fend off his advances until an appropriate amount of time has passed. You weren't hyper-aggressive with her, so she was like, what is up with this guy?

In reality, every person is different. What they need, what they want, what they expect, it's all unique to that person, and that's stuff that you have to figure out and learn as you get to know a person. When you rely on stereotypes, you get it wrong.

I'm surprised that she didn't get that you were into her, by the fact that you flew out to be with her for a full ten days.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

FeministInPink said:


> Yet another instance in which stupid cultural stereotypes cause men and women to misunderstand one another. Society teaches us that men a "animals" with a continual hard-on, and if he isn't trying to get into a woman's panties immediately, he must not be into her, and it's her role to fend off his advances until an appropriate amount of time has passed. You weren't hyper-aggressive with her, so she was like, what is up with this guy?
> 
> In reality, every person is different. What they need, what they want, what they expect, it's all unique to that person, and that's stuff that you have to figure out and learn as you get to know a person. When you rely on stereotypes, you get it wrong.
> 
> I'm surprised that she didn't get that you were into her, by the fact that you flew out to be with her for a full ten days.


Perhaps the problem was she thought he was into her, but felt his actions after arriving were not fitting her script.

My wife is a very poor example for anything.

But she has scripts in her head which I need to follow. And she never tells me what they are. I must find the right script and follow it, without ever seeing the pages.

It was very difficult at first. Now, it is easy. Not because she has ever communicated any of them to me, but because I have explored and found them by that exploration. I had realized as I was dating her they existed. I had explored. But there were so many I was ignorant of for a long time. 

What intrigued me is that mention of kiss her all over. That is a line I used on my wife. I used it on every girl I dated for long. My wife seemed to love it. She certainly lit up when I used it on her. When I put it into practice she balked, which is another story altogether. But we have stumbled along.

Hidden scripts.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

WilliamM said:


> Perhaps the problem was she thought he was into her, but felt his actions after arriving were not fitting her script.
> 
> My wife is a very poor example for anything.
> 
> ...


Case in point. People are freaking complicated!


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

Lila said:


> @GreenOrb,
> 
> You've mentioned the reasons you love your wife, your needs, and what you wish she would do for you in the relationship.
> 
> ...


I haven't asked her recently but in the past she has said that she finds me attractive, likes my sense of humour, and thinks I'm a good dad. She'd like me to talk to her more and take charge more and be more ambitious, essentially be more of a "man". I've solved the ambition piece, but working on the others. For a lot of my life I've lacked self confidence which has held me back. I seem to care little less now about what people think of me which is beginning to help.


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

Probably worth me clarifying a few things at this point.

My wife has taken the love languages test and acts of service came out top, with words of affirmation closely behind. Physical touch was a distant last.

I'm not willing to walk away at this stage. We have young kids and couldn't bring myself to break up the marriage because of them. If I thought our relationship was so bad it was having a detrimental effect on the kids then maybe I would consider it. Having said that, I was bathing one of the kids earlier and me and my wife shared a joke in the bathroom. My son showed surprise that we were agreeing with each other as he put it. I asked him why and he said normally we disagree or shout at each other. Made me realise I need to get this fixed.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

GreenOrb said:


> I haven't asked her recently but in the past she has said that she finds me attractive, likes my sense of humour, and thinks I'm a good dad. She'd like me to talk to her more and take charge more and be more ambitious, essentially be more of a "man". I've solved the ambition piece, but working on the others. For a lot of my life I've lacked self confidence which has held me back. I seem to care little less now about what people think of me which is beginning to help.


Be more of a "man". Take charge more.

Pretty telling, right there.

In my opinion, anyway. I think. Or, another way of saying it is I believe your wife has some vague similarities to my wife. Only vague, because my wife is badly damaged.

But those are very key issues. And if you did not meet her criteria, for this long, it is actually surprising you are still doing as well as you are.

I think she has scripts you must meet. She will not tell you what they are.

The last man I saw try to learn how to do this failed miserably and became mean and overbearing, and alienated his wife instead of pleasing her. 

Satisfying her is not easy. Most men have no clue how to act correctly. There are several great women here who can give you superb clues.

I think I could give you clues. I have years of experience being very self assured with extremely high self esteem, and my wife has made sure I have adopted a Dominant role in our relationship. Mary was unhappy until I accepted that.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

In this vein, I can give you, if you request it here, a list of actions which could gain you favor, and actions which could loose you favor, if your wife is vaguely similar to my Mary.

Please remember Mary is mentally ill, and out there in the extreme on several measures, so I would leave some things off, assuming they apply only to my wife. And some things on the list might actually only apply to her, of course.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

Not without understanding and a willingness on both side to try to meet eachothers needs .


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Big difference between substantial resentment and an absence of desire. 

If the day to day tone is friendly and they are having laughs and she is glad to do all the normal stuff married couples do together - but physical touch and sex are near zero - that doesn’t strike me as a resentment issue. That’s something different. 





Lila said:


> But you're assuming that OP has been speaking his wife's love language all along. He hasn't. He believes his marriage is good but if he's only been delivering on the acts of service for a short while, then stopping would be interpreted by his wife as returning to status quo.
> 
> In my opinion, consistency with speaking her love language over a significant period of time (say 10% of their time together) will probably earn OP more than tit for tat. Let his actions show that he is undoubtably a changed man. That this is not a fluke.
> 
> ...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Interesting thread.

Now let me offer my semiprofessional opinion. The whole premise in the existence of Love Languages hinges on an extremely simplified version of human behavior. 5? Why not 50? 500?

The love tank may be a leaking sieve for all we know. The issue is not keeping score, as the book implies, but by being compatible in many different levels. 

Let's say the love tank is full, but the hate tank is quarter full. Ah, he didn't mention a hate tank? Oops. A few drops of the right variety of hate and you could have a love tank the size of the Exxon Valdez and it won't fix it.

You're way past pop psychology diy books. I suggest very serious counseling or else... You'll be here again in a few years with an even sorrier update.

My love languages are bicycle accessories, camera stuff, and anything Mini Cooper related. Maybe a statue of Sir Alec for the living room?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

GO,
Hold on - that’s two distinct issues:
1. A generally tense and strained tone (which is not what you’ve described to date)
2. A lack of self awareness on your part - perhaps this is the larger issue

What are the primary causes of conflict between you two?





GreenOrb said:


> Probably worth me clarifying a few things at this point.
> 
> My wife has taken the love languages test and acts of service came out top, with words of affirmation closely behind. Physical touch was a distant last.
> 
> I'm not willing to walk away at this stage. We have young kids and couldn't bring myself to break up the marriage because of them. If I thought our relationship was so bad it was having a detrimental effect on the kids then maybe I would consider it. Having said that, I was bathing one of the kids earlier and me and my wife shared a joke in the bathroom. My son showed surprise that we were agreeing with each other as he put it. I asked him why and he said normally we disagree or shout at each other. Made me realise I need to get this fixed.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Lila said:


> And the OP is not either. Just saying. That s why I'm bringing up other options.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


when most people tell me they used tit for tat, they usually mean "i punished him/her for things i didnt like". 

which is what most people seem to think that tit for tat is. 

it isnt.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The love languages are a good start, though I do believe he buried what might be the biggest one under acts of service: sacrifice

Sacrifice is simply the act of putting the other person first in a given situation - full stop. The restaurant to eat at, the movie to see, the Olympic events to watch, whether to read books next to each other or have sex. 

This - theme - is constructively woven into the fabric of most healthy marriages. If you take the 5 LL quiz and are mismatched, what you then discover is that - this other love language - sacrifice - the one I consider the first and most important love language - is the bridge that spans the gaps. Or - in a marriage with minimal sacrifice on one or both sides - you end up with bone on bone conflict over the mismatch. 

I would be curious to see what you come up with that truly adds major categories John, because it is a good basic set of categories. As to sub categories - of course they are legion, but mostly they fit into those 6 categories. 

J2 wanted you to sacrifice and:
- Let her retire
- Keep the McMansion 

You wanted her to sacrifice and make a good faith effort in bed. 

Sure there was other stuff - but sex and money are big things. Add in a few amplifiers - she seems ungrateful and you appear to be determined to avoid acknowledging error - and eventually - you get into the downward spiral of conflict and then indifference.





john117 said:


> Interesting thread.
> 
> Now let me offer my semiprofessional opinion. The whole premise in the existence of Love Languages hinges on an extremely simplified version of human behavior. 5? Why not 50? 500?
> 
> ...


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> Big difference between substantial resentment and an absence of desire.
> 
> If the day to day tone is friendly and they are having laughs and she is glad to do all the normal stuff married couples do together - but physical touch and sex are near zero - that doesn’t strike me as a resentment issue. That’s something different.


Agreed. 

Based on what I've read prior to his lady update, I would say this is a case of never having desire to begin with which means hopeless. But after after OP's last few posts, I'm tempted to think there's something he can fix. 

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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Sacrifice is great if you're Abraham. It's a purely one way action that doesn't work in a two way street environment like marriage.

I sacrificed many things before coming to this point. Far more than she did. Far more than what most people do. No avail. But you help point out the true magic word in my view... 

Reciprocity.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

As'laDain said:


> when most people tell me they used tit for tat, they usually mean "i punished him/her for things i didnt like".
> 
> which is what most people seem to think that tit for tat is.
> 
> it isnt.


Lol. You sound like my IT department. When something stops working, they blame it on user error. It never occurs to them that the operating system is not compatible with whatever new software they installed and want us to use. 

I know what tit for tat is @As'laDain. I learned it here. It did not work. My husband was not the right target audience. I could get into the characteristics that make one person more susceptible to it than others but that would take this thread jack into a super TJ. 

Suffice it to say, tit for tat is not a panacea for all relationship problems. Nothing is. OP needs to figure out what does work. He's not ready to file for divorce just yet. 

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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Lila said:


> Lol. You sound like my IT department. When something stops working, they blame it on user error. It never occurs to them that the operating system is not compatible with whatever new software they installed and want us to use.
> 
> I know what tit for tat is @As'laDain. I learned it here. It did not work. My husband was not the right target audience. I could get into the characteristics that make one person more susceptible to it than others but that would take this thread jack into a super TJ.
> 
> ...


i never called it a panacea. i dont know your story, but now that you are getting all riled up about tit for tat, im curious.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

GreenOrb said:


> Thanks to all for the advice already given. *I've learned a few things about myself already today* that I haven't got from reading countless books, articles, forums, etc.


That’s why they pay all of us here the big bucks!! 

Keep reading and posting OP. You’re getting some very good advice.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

As'laDain said:


> i never called it a panacea. i dont know your story, but now that you are getting all riled up about tit for tat, im curious.


 And here i thought you were the one getting all riled up.  Just goes to show that it's impossible to decipher emotion and temperament from written language.

------------------

OP, I encourage you to keep posting, specifically describe your daily interactions with your wife. 

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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Lila said:


> And here i thought you were the one getting all riled up.  Just goes to show that it's impossible to decipher emotion and temperament from written language.
> 
> ------------------
> 
> ...


reading through your threads. havent found it yet.


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

WilliamM said:


> In this vein, I can give you, if you request it here, a list of actions which could gain you favor, and actions which could loose you favor, if your wife is vaguely similar to my Mary.
> 
> Please remember Mary is mentally ill, and out there in the extreme on several measures, so I would leave some things off, assuming they apply only to my wife. And some things on the list might actually only apply to her, of course.


I'd appreciate that. I think there are definite similarities. My wife likes talking about things that bother her, but when it comes to talking about relationship type stuff she finds it difficult and has a habit of expecting me to know when she wants to talk. Example: last week I went out with friend for a few drinks. Afterwards she was upset saying she wanted me stay in and talk about her job which was bothering her. But she didn't say so at the time so I didn't know. It's likely I'm not that good at picking up on these things so any pointers would be useful.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

GreenOrb said:


> I'd appreciate that. I think there are definite similarities. My wife likes talking about things that bother her, but when it comes to talking about relationship type stuff she finds it difficult and has a habit of expecting me to know when she wants to talk. Example: last week I went out with friend for a few drinks. Afterwards she was upset saying she wanted me stay in and talk about her job which was bothering her. But she didn't say so at the time so I didn't know. It's likely I'm not that good at picking up on these things so any pointers would be useful.


get a white board. write down what you want from your spouse at the end of the day. have her do the same. 

tell her to write it down regardless of how obvious it SHOULD be. then address it at the end of the day. 

call it the "close of marriage business day"(or whatever you want) board, to be checked before either going to bed or leaving for the night.


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

Lila said:


> And here i thought you were the one getting all riled up.  Just goes to show that it's impossible to decipher emotion and temperament from written language.
> 
> ------------------
> 
> ...


I certainly appreciate all the advice so far. So more details of my last 48 hours:

I was thinking hard about the tit for tat idea and see the logic. I have sparodically made real efforts with my wife, generally when we haven't had sex for ages!, but when it has turned into nothing, then I give up again. But actually being explicit to her about the efforts I'm making makes sense. If I tell her I'm going to keep making an effort but expect something in return, it's fair enough to remove my efforts if nothing comes. And I do have things to remove, I get her tea/coffee every morning, I now sort the kids out most mornings to give her more of a break, etc.

So I gave her the 30 second chat last night. I kept it very short and kept to script. She just nodded and smiled and nothing more was said, so I think it sank in. Last night I didn't try and kind of hugs or plays for sex. This morning I went straight down and got her her tea, the got back in bed next to her. I can't remember exactly how we got onto it but after a few minutes she turned to me and said she sorry that she wasn't very good at this stuff, implying that she isn't very good at being intimate. But then she leaned into me and let me put my arm around her for a few minutes while we drank our tea and watched the news. Can't remember the last time that happened.

I have been very attentive today, fetching her drinks, clearing up everyone I can, and asking if she is ok - she's worried about our cats at the moment that have just been spayed and one wasn't doing so well. Earlier in the day we were discussing them in the kitchen and we had a mutual hug which lasted for a good 20 seconds, again a rarity. When she pulled away I just let her go. Normally I would often hang on for longer, but clearly that has been crowding her so I just let her go. So far we have been getting on well all day, no frostiness which has become something of a norm between us in recent years. Whether this eventually leads to anything further this weekend we'll have to see. But at least feel like I have a semblance of control now. If I keep making an effort and I get nothing in return I can then just remove some nice things I'm doing. Wouldn't be punishment, just removal of things she likes me doing. I know I'll probably find this hard to do if it comes to it, but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.

I'll update again when I get 5 mins away from everything.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

GreenOrb said:


> I'd appreciate that. I think there are definite similarities. My wife likes talking about things that bother her, but when it comes to talking about relationship type stuff she finds it difficult and has a habit of expecting me to know when she wants to talk. Example: last week I went out with friend for a few drinks. Afterwards she was upset saying she wanted me stay in and talk about her job which was bothering her. But she didn't say so at the time so I didn't know. It's likely I'm not that good at picking up on these things so any pointers would be useful.


My wife has hidden scripts, as I mentioned. I had thought for over 40 years it was just her.

I have read in the last year on this site several threads wherein other women have said they wanted their men to just know what they, the wife, wanted, without having to be told. It actually seems it is not rare.

Things which rapidly loose respect:

-----Asking questions about what she would like, instead of divining what she would like and providing it. My supposition regarding this is the act of asking puts me in the position of student, while knowing puts me in the position of authority.

This is totally counter productive to communication, but it is what it is. The way I handle it is to experiment, by trial and error. After a few years I got quite good at divining what pleased my wife. I spend a lot of time just trying to figure this out.

-----Raising your voice to your wife. Simply never do that. A man never does that. Sure, you might think it is reasonable if you get upset. Wrong, a real man never does. That's what she thinks. She may try to make you angry to see if you will yell at her. If you do, you are weak, and not a real man. If you simply state you are upset, and leave it at that, then you are strong. Strength is not, repeat, not, about enforcing anything on your wife. It is about controlling yourself.

-----Never, not in this lifetime or any other lifetime, say anything rude or disrespectful to or about your wife. Ever. Only stupid children taunt. That's how the thinking goes, I am sure. If you say the word stupid one time, you can be sure it will cut like a knife. A real man never says things like that.

Things which gain respect:

-----Compliment your wife every chance you can, for everything you can. I praise my wife dozens to hundreds of times a day. She is a special snowflake, and needs more than most, so perhaps other women would not find so much appreciation comfortable. It turns Mary on, like an aphrodisiac. It is possible this is special for Mary. Mary believes this is not exclusive to her issues, and insisted I include it.

-----Tell your wife you love her. Tell her often. Several times a day. This works just like compliments. This is not gooey and milksoppy. This is strong and meaningful. Consider seriously, what if she died in a car crash later today?

-----Any time your wife speaks, stop and look into her eyes and listen to her. Every word she says is a precious gift. She is a precious gift that God has granted you. Be mindful you are only being allowed to share her company because you are very lucky.

-----Always be mindful that strength is within you, and not controlling others. It is about you becoming sure of who you are, not ever projecting you onto others.

Those are the big ones. I have a lot of other rules I live by, but they are less stringent, and maybe only apply to Mary and I.

In my wife's case, I gained tremendous respect in her eyes one day when I assured her I would save our son and not her if it ever came down to a choice. She is a mother first, and our children mean more to us than anything. She finds my devotion to our children wildly exciting. She has reminded me, very pleasurably, many times how pleased she is with my statement.

I suspect many women may feel the same.

The hardest part may be learning to think, instead of just yammering.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Try not to get hung up on the day to day, but rather the trajectory.

If you do, the wins are great, but the bad days are incredibly disheartening. Ask me how I know.

Focus on whether things overall are heading north or south, rather than the previous day or week.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

GreenOrb said:


> I certainly appreciate all the advice so far. So more details of my last 48 hours:
> 
> I was thinking hard about the tit for tat idea and see the logic. I have sparodically made real efforts with my wife, generally when we haven't had sex for ages!, but when it has turned into nothing, then I give up again. But actually being explicit to her about the efforts I'm making makes sense. If I tell her I'm going to keep making an effort but expect something in return, it's fair enough to remove my efforts if nothing comes. And I do have things to remove, I get her tea/coffee every morning, I now sort the kids out most mornings to give her more of a break, etc.
> 
> ...


AWESOME!! ok, so the tit for tat strategy will work fine for you because YOUR WIFE WANTS TO COOPERATE!!!
that is HUGE! it means that you already have most of the battle won, and i can go on to explaining the other half of what tit for tat does. i didn't bother mentioning it much because i wasn't sure if you would even try the idea to begin with. most people wont. 

anyway, the second half is to get better at communicating. eventually, your spouse will have to tell you the things that they fantasize about, because the will see that you will keep your word and will find a way to enthusiastically make it happen. well, i shouldn't say HAVE to, but they will WANT to. dont expect that overnight though, it will start happening when you start to notice that there is a new dynamic in place. basically, the more you two get used to DOING for each other, the more you two will get better at communicating your needs to each other. and you both will also be spending more time thinking about what you want from each other so that you can better communicate it. 

positive momentum. keep it moving.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

WilliamM said:


> My wife has hidden scripts, as I mentioned. I had thought for over 40 years it was just her.
> 
> I have read in the last year on this site several threads wherein other women have said they wanted their men to just know what they, the wife, wanted, without having to be told. It actually seems it is not rare.
> 
> ...


**** tests...each and every one.

Learn to recognize them, OP.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

GreenOrb said:


> I certainly appreciate all the advice so far. So more details of my last 48 hours:
> 
> I was thinking hard about the tit for tat idea and see the logic. I have sparodically made real efforts with my wife, generally when we haven't had sex for ages!, but when it has turned into nothing, then I give up again. But actually being explicit to her about the efforts I'm making makes sense. If I tell her I'm going to keep making an effort but expect something in return, it's fair enough to remove my efforts if nothing comes. And I do have things to remove, I get her tea/coffee every morning, I now sort the kids out most mornings to give her more of a break, etc.
> 
> ...


Good luck OP. I wish you the very best. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

I decided to add:

Mary is a pathological liar. This is the result of horrific preadolescent trauma.

Mary also has masochistic personality syndrome. 

One of the traits of masochism is gaining happiness through performing acts of service for the person you become submerged to. She has channeled most of her focus into that trait. She is fulfilled, and I find it fun.

So Mary waits on me, and performs acts of service for me as much as she possibly can. Because of her syndrome this emotionally and sexually excites her.

I state this just as a disclaimer so you know why my guidelines might look highly restrained in some ways. I have studied self improvement through many methods very diligently to get where I am to be able to deal with her, and she has worked hard to get where she is.

We are very happy together, and the positive feedback we give each other is amazing. It may not be easy for me to sort out what works for her from normal stuff.

Just a disclaimer.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

another thing that just struck me...

when she apologized for not being very good at physical intimacy. 

whenever she makes statements like that, or rather, whenever she makes an effort in general, show your appreciation for the effort. let her know that you don't care if she is "good at it" or not, the idea is to encourage the cooperation and discourage the opposite. so, jump on the chances to let her know that you love the fact that she is willing to work with you. that she is willing to put forth the effort. boost her ego, _in that moment_. 

afterwards, let it go. don't ever heap empty praises on her, as that would be counterproductive. but DO show appreciation for her efforts.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Letting the hug end when she pulled away is a huge positive step. Being clingy tends to be destructive.




GreenOrb said:


> I certainly appreciate all the advice so far. So more details of my last 48 hours:
> 
> I was thinking hard about the tit for tat idea and see the logic. I have sparodically made real efforts with my wife, generally when we haven't had sex for ages!, but when it has turned into nothing, then I give up again. But actually being explicit to her about the efforts I'm making makes sense. If I tell her I'm going to keep making an effort but expect something in return, it's fair enough to remove my efforts if nothing comes. And I do have things to remove, I get her tea/coffee every morning, I now sort the kids out most mornings to give her more of a break, etc.
> 
> ...


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

GreenOrb said:


> I haven't asked her recently but in the past, she has said that she finds me attractive, likes my sense of humour, and thinks I'm a good dad. She'd like me to talk to her more and take charge more and be more ambitious, essentially be more of a "man". I've solved the ambition piece but working on the others. For a lot of my life, I've lacked self-confidence which has held me back. I seem to care little less now about what people think of me which is beginning to help.


I haven't read the rest of the thread yet but just wanted to add something to this point. This makes me think of how I have felt in the past. I was with someone who classes himself as one of those "nice guys" after he read the book.

One of the things that was a huge turn-off was that he could never make a decision. He would say it's because I overruled him however I came to realise it's because I would state my opinion and he would feel threatened by that. He'd say that because I might not like what he suggested, he would just never suggest anything. Everything was left completely up to me. I could say a lot more about it and the different ways this played out, however at the end of the day what it meant for me was I felt like I was with a child. I was not attracted to his lack of assertiveness and often failed to accommodate it because if I did, we'd end up with no one making any decisions and he'd get extremely pissed off about that too. I was damned if I did, and damned if I didn't. It was extremely draining.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

WilliamM said:


> Be more of a "man". Take charge more.
> 
> Pretty telling, right there.
> 
> ...


That's what happened to me too. I wanted him to be more of a partner in the marriage instead of just someone else I had to make decisions for and someone else I had to look after. He felt that I dominated him because I made all the decisions. In his efforts to become more dominant, instead of doing things to take care of me and our family, he would try to bring me down. A bit like beating me into submission with words. I could not submit, not like that, but I could feel incredibly hurt.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

GreenOrb said:


> Hi folks. I’ve been thinking about posting for a long time so thought it was time to finally gave it a go. I’m hoping to get a bit of perspective into my marriage, since I’ve done a lot of thinking and reading over the last few years but never been able to talk to anyone or get anyone else’s opinion.
> 
> So, I’m a married man living with a wife who gives me virtually no affection and very little sex.
> 
> ...




- I too am a married man living with a wife with little physical intimacy and sex, just like you.

- My wife's love language is also Acts of Service were as mine is Physical, just like you.

- We are married for about 18 years and my wife is 40 and I am 44.

- My wife and I also are good friends and she too is kind, loving and helps cook.

- Sex is about 8 times a year for me as well.

- Sex is plain vanilla for us too.

- I too have talked about this with Mrs.CuddleBug many times and nothing changes in the end. She only gets uneasy and upset.

- I also do much of the chores on a daily basis because they need to get done and our place is decent.


What I have learned so far and from TAM, is that LD spouses don't change and I would say its they're in it for themselves. Us HD spouses must find ways to deal with our HD urges. More hobbies and interests, going to a gym and out socializing. Buying great sex toys so when the mood strikes us, out comes the toy. That's about all you can really do. At least this way you don't meet ladies who are physical and want friends with benefits, which is common today.......

You are not alone.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

i WAS in a mostly sexless marriage... sex every month or three. for the first few years. 

nowadays, we have sex about a hundred and thirty times a year. 

you might think that average, until you realize that i am only home for about three months out of the year...


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

MEM2020 said:


> GO,
> Hold on - that’s two distinct issues:
> 1. A generally tense and strained tone (which is not what you’ve described to date)
> 2. A lack of self awareness on your part - perhaps this is the larger issue
> ...


I missed this question earlier. Conflict tends to build up slowly between us. Generally I'll let my wife down on one or two things, she then starts getting frosty with me and will snap at me a lot for all kinds of minor things. Often I'm not even sure what I've done until much later when she finally tells me. I think I tend to play off her emotions so then I'll get grouchy too and either just not talk to her or snap back. This can often go on for days which of course means any kind of physical interaction is out of the question. My window for sex tends to be in that short period in her cycle when her hormones give her a vague sex drive, but if we are not talking during this period then we'll often skip a month. Hence the 8 times a year we've been managing for the last 4 years now. Even if she is slightly in the mood I think her motivation for sex tends to be feeling guilty that we haven't done it for a while. On occasion I have asked if she wants sex a day or two after sex, and she will often come back with a wry joke like "you'll have to wait till next month now". I think In her head if we've had sex recently then that's it for another month. This is of course the cycle I need to break.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Who is the main wage earner?




GreenOrb said:


> I missed this question earlier. Conflict tends to build up slowly between us. Generally I'll let my wife down on one or two things, she then starts getting frosty with me and will snap at me a lot for all kinds of minor things. Often I'm not even sure what I've done until much later when she finally tells me. I think I tend to play off her emotions so then I'll get grouchy too and either just not talk to her or snap back. This can often go on for days which of course means any kind of physical interaction is out of the question. My window for sex tends to be in that short period in her cycle when her hormones give her a vague sex drive, but if we are not talking during this period then we'll often skip a month. Hence the 8 times a year we've been managing for the last 4 years now. Even if she is slightly in the mood I think her motivation for sex tends to be feeling guilty that we haven't done it for a while. On occasion I have asked if she wants sex a day or two after sex, and she will often come back with a wry joke like "you'll have to wait till next month now". I think In her head if we've had sex recently then that's it for another month. This is of course the cycle I need to break.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

And what are examples of major ways you disappoint her?





GreenOrb said:


> I missed this question earlier. Conflict tends to build up slowly between us. Generally I'll let my wife down on one or two things, she then starts getting frosty with me and will snap at me a lot for all kinds of minor things. Often I'm not even sure what I've done until much later when she finally tells me. I think I tend to play off her emotions so then I'll get grouchy too and either just not talk to her or snap back. This can often go on for days which of course means any kind of physical interaction is out of the question. My window for sex tends to be in that short period in her cycle when her hormones give her a vague sex drive, but if we are not talking during this period then we'll often skip a month. Hence the 8 times a year we've been managing for the last 4 years now. Even if she is slightly in the mood I think her motivation for sex tends to be feeling guilty that we haven't done it for a while. On occasion I have asked if she wants sex a day or two after sex, and she will often come back with a wry joke like "you'll have to wait till next month now". I think In her head if we've had sex recently then that's it for another month. This is of course the cycle I need to break.


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

MEM2020 said:


> Who is the main wage earner?


Me. I've done fairly well in the last 5 years and set myself up to earn well in my 40s. Having said that my wife is very smart and if she wanted to go back full time she would be earning good money. Her career has taken a back seat to the kids.


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

MEM2020 said:


> And what are examples of major ways you disappoint her?


In the past I've often not quite kept to my word, like saying I'll be home from work at one time then getting home at another. Or simply forgetting to do something like pick something up from the shops. This has got a lot better since I've been working nearer home, my previous job consumed a lot of my mental energy which was probably unfair on my wife. I guess I've always been a bit unreliable.


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

breeze said:


> I haven't read the rest of the thread yet but just wanted to add something to this point. This makes me think of how I have felt in the past. I was with someone who classes himself as one of those "nice guys" after he read the book.
> 
> One of the things that was a huge turn-off was that he could never make a decision. He would say it's because I overruled him however I came to realise it's because I would state my opinion and he would feel threatened by that. He'd say that because I might not like what he suggested, he would just never suggest anything. Everything was left completely up to me. I could say a lot more about it and the different ways this played out, however at the end of the day what it meant for me was I felt like I was with a child. I was not attracted to his lack of assertiveness and often failed to accommodate it because if I did, we'd end up with no one making any decisions and he'd get extremely pissed off about that too. I was damned if I did, and damned if I didn't. It was extremely draining.


This has been one of my wife chief frustrations. She has often said she makes all the decisions and it's exhausting. For me it's stemmed from a lack of confidence in my own opinions, and I'll often assume other people's opinions are more valid than mine. I still have no idea why I am like this. Academically I've always been smarter than just about anyone else I know, but that doesn't seem to translate into any belief in my own abilities. It's at least something I'm very aware of and trying to change.


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## Tonto (Feb 17, 2018)

GreenOrb, you are in a relationship, where you are both catching different trains, both of you make time and go away somewhere different where you can be bee your own self, you will re connect !!! Try St Saint Petersburg/ Helsinki/ Prague/ Finland/ Paris/Marrakesh , explore, visit Museums and historic sites and stroll around the nightlife and restaurants, re charge your Love Batteries !! enjoy


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

As'laDain said:


> AWESOME!! ok, so the tit for tat strategy will work fine for you because YOUR WIFE WANTS TO COOPERATE!!!
> that is HUGE! it means that you already have most of the battle won, and i can go on to explaining the other half of what tit for tat does. i didn't bother mentioning it much because i wasn't sure if you would even try the idea to begin with. most people wont.
> 
> anyway, the second half is to get better at communicating. eventually, your spouse will have to tell you the things that they fantasize about, because the will see that you will keep your word and will find a way to enthusiastically make it happen. well, i shouldn't say HAVE to, but they will WANT to. dont expect that overnight though, it will start happening when you start to notice that there is a new dynamic in place. basically, the more you two get used to DOING for each other, the more you two will get better at communicating your needs to each other. and you both will also be spending more time thinking about what you want from each other so that you can better communicate it.
> ...


Today is only one day, but it has probably been the best day we have had together in a very long time. I helped my wife out in the garden earlier, she loves gardening and I'm not all that interested but it felt good to help her out with something that is important to her. I then cooked her dinner and a 3rd hug of the day in the kitchen. Quite possibly a record.

And we have just had sex. Although right now I'm not getting too excited. This is second time this year, and the last time was about a month ago, so at the moment she is following her pattern of doing what she thinks is just enough to keep me happy. If we have sex again in the next week or so then I might actually be on to something. Also I know I've been highly motivated in the last few days since it's been so long since we last had sex. I need to keep this motivation up tomorrow too.


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## thenub (Oct 3, 2014)

I know some members may disagree but I recommend you read married man’s sexlife primer. I was in pretty much the same situation years ago. 
The things you listed of things you did that made your wife upset (coming home late etc) are very minuscule in comparison to the things I put my wife through. 
I read the book and started working on cleaning up my side of the street, after all, the only person I can change is myself. I sought no validation from my wife for my changes and did things not to gain her favor but because they needed to be done. She didn’t need a third child, she needed a partner. 
Like you, I’m a physical touch guy and my wife is acts of service. My work schedule made it easy for me to get home and cook most days. I would also have time to shuttle the kids around so she didn’t have to take time off. 
I was going to go tit for tat but then realized it would have been plain selfish as the had done everything for years and wasn’t sure if I had actually changed or was just gaming her. 5 years later I’m still cooking, shuttling, home repairs, auto maintenance and working out. 
She has come to accept my changes as “real” and our intimacy is better than ever. 
You seem to be an intel man so if you do read the married man’s sexlife primer, be aware that there is a lot of good information as well as some not so good. You’ll have to separate the wheat from the chaff but if you can stick with it, you will see improvements. 


All the best


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

WilliamM said:


> My wife has hidden scripts, as I mentioned. I had thought for over 40 years it was just her.
> 
> I have read in the last year on this site several threads wherein other women have said they wanted their men to just know what they, the wife, wanted, without having to be told. It actually seems it is not rare.
> 
> ...


There is a lot of good, universal advice in this post by @WilliamM, with a few caveats/things I would expand on:

*Don't: Asking questions about what she would like, instead of divining what she would like and providing it.*
For some women, it's ok to ask what they want... but then you have to remember, and you have to do it every time! Or you are constantly asking, and this becomes irksome. The reason women don't like being asked this is two-fold:

1) It actually increases her emotional labor in the relationship, because she is likely already divining and providing for her partner. As women, we are socially conditioned (and taught) to be tuned into other's needs and to meet them. Think about the Radar/Colonel Blake relationship from Mash. Radar always anticipates what Col Blake needs before he needs it. Most women do this as a matter of course in a relationship, because they know this makes for a good relationship. If you have to ASK her what she wants, not only is she divining and providing for her partner, but now you're basically asking her to do your emotional work for you. That's an unfair burden to place on a partner, especially if you have kids and she's also divining and providing for your children as well.

2) "Diving and providing" shows that you are truly in tune with her, and that you are fully engaged. It means that you are not only listening, but _hearing_--even when she's not talking. That you know and understand her better than anyone else in the world. If you have to ask, it means, well, that you haven't been paying attention. And this hurts her. Because she notices these things about you.

*Compliment your wife every chance you can, for everything you can.*
Yes, but only if you're sincere. False compliments will ring fake. And depending on the woman, be careful not to do too much, for fear of being _clingy_, especially initially, if she's not used to it.

*Tell your wife you love her. Tell her often. Several times a day.*
See my note about complimenting. As things improve, you can say it more. If you don't already say it once a day, start at once a day and then work up gradually from there. I've always thought about it this way: If I were to get hit by a car right now, I want my last words to have been, "I love you."

All of the things that @WilliamM talks about may take a great deal of effort starting out, but over time they will become almost habitual and will feel completely natural.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

GreenOrb said:


> And we have just had sex. Although right now I'm not getting too excited. This is second time this year, and the last time was about a month ago, so at the moment she is following her pattern of doing what she thinks is just enough to keep me happy. If we have sex again in the next week or so then I might actually be on to something. Also I know I've been highly motivated in the last few days since it's been so long since we last had sex. I need to keep this motivation up tomorrow too.


You seem to be under a mistaken impression that things you do will cause her to have sex with you. That is not going to happen. 

Right now you are on the seemingly universal default unhappy female service level of 'once a month if you are lucky', I swear it must be biologically embedded in their wiring as the minimum required to keep a guy on the hook. You will not get more until she decides you will, you've been around for a long time with minimal complaints so why change? 

Only the combination of being a good guy AND periodically directly communication the fact that the current level of frequency is causing you deep unhappiness can maybe get her to rethink her current set point. Personally I've found simple short sentences used rarely to work best. 'Once or twice a month SUCKS'. Remember, once a month feels OK to her.

Be advised, this is a years long process. She may for example at some point decide to throw a lot of sex at you to shut you up. It's a distraction, it'll drop back quickly. Only after she decides that you really are a pretty decent guy she wants to keep around and deserves a bit of happiness will she make a permanent realignment.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

One more thing, it is not a logical decision, she can not be argued or discussed into it...


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

thenub said:


> I know some members may disagree but I recommend you read married man’s sexlife primer. I was in pretty much the same situation years ago.
> The things you listed of things you did that made your wife upset (coming home late etc) are very minuscule in comparison to the things I put my wife through.
> I read the book and started working on cleaning up my side of the street, after all, the only person I can change is myself. I sought no validation from my wife for my changes and did things not to gain her favor but because they needed to be done. She didn’t need a third child, she needed a partner.
> Like you, I’m a physical touch guy and my wife is acts of service. My work schedule made it easy for me to get home and cook most days. I would also have time to shuttle the kids around so she didn’t have to take time off.
> ...


I clearly need to reread this book. Read it maybe a few years back but probably never fully implemented much in it for long.

I've been debating in my head the "fairness" of a tit for tat strategy. If my understanding of it is right then it basically goes:

- I haven't done as much round the house and made as many decisions in our relationship as my wife would have wanted which hasn't made her very happy
- However she has responded by giving me very little physical intimacy, so in a sense we are even
- Now I've started making an effort which is making her much happier, it seems only fair that she make an effort back
- If she doesn't then its reasonable for me to then pull back on my efforts

Logically this seems reasonable (and as anyone reading this may have noticed I'm a very logical person), and to some degree I have already said this is how I'm going to behave to my wife. But it also seems a little short sighted, and a rather unemotional way to treat the woman I love. Another approach would therefore be:
- Keep the changes I have made to myself permanent (keep helping more round the house, cooking for her, being thoughtful, making decisions, etc)
- Then after some time she is going to start believing that the new me is real and not some temporary play to get some sex
- Hopefully after some time she will respond by improving the physical side of the relationship

But then this seems to come across as a fingers crossed "nice guy" strategy. Ultimately I'm thinking I'm going to land somewhere in between. I'm going to keep up with all the things that are making her happy in the relationship, but gradually become vocal about wanting something in return. After a period of time (perhaps long enough that my wife believes the changes in me are real) I can implement full tit for tat if she still refuses to budge.

Whether this is the right course I'm still not sure. :scratchhead:


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

anonmd said:


> Right now you are on the seemingly universal default unhappy female service level of 'once a month if you are lucky', I swear it must be biologically embedded in their wiring as the minimum required to keep a guy on the hook. You will not get more until she decides you will, you've been around for a long time with minimal complaints so why change?


I learned much too late to save my own marriage, but there's something to this pattern. It IS biologically embedded.

Women (some more than others?) can be quite influenced by their cycle. The natural horniness men have all the time is only experienced by these women around their ovulation. If you get once a month sex, it's not that she's got this blatant mental arbitrary time limit between encounters, it's that her cycle is governing her level of desire.

Add onto this that if she is unhappy with you during those precious few days, it won't matter how horny she is. She still won't want to do something that would make you happy.

So track her cycle. Figure out when you expect her to hit ovulation. It lasts several days. Time your best behaviour and initiations around those days, starting a day or two ahead, and trying for a week or something so you catch the tail end of it too. If you have no sex for three weeks, then sex twice in one week, and it repeats monthly, that's still an improvement, right? Then ease off for the next three so you aren't annoying her when she's not receptive.

Let YOU start to feel more desired and less frustrated, and doing all those other love language things for her will come more easily to you.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

breeze said:


> One of the things that was a huge turn-off was that he could never make a decision. He would say it's because I overruled him however I came to realise it's because I would state my opinion and he would feel threatened by that. He'd say that because I might not like what he suggested, he would just never suggest anything. Everything was left completely up to me. I could say a lot more about it and the different ways this played out, however at the end of the day what it meant for me was I felt like I was with a child. I was not attracted to his lack of assertiveness and often failed to accommodate it because if I did, we'd end up with no one making any decisions and he'd get extremely pissed off about that too. I was damned if I did, and damned if I didn't. It was extremely draining.


That kind of behaviour drives me nuts from anyone, male or female, so I'm not surprised it badly affects a relationship.

If you ask someone what they want to do, where they want to eat, what movie they want to see, someone who responds with "I dunno, what do you want to do?" is extremely unattractive. They might think they are being 'nice' or cooperative by letting you choose (and possibly having a covert contract to expect something in return), but really it is unfair to force you to make all the decisions. And it's especially annoying when you happen to choose something they didn't want, and they let you know it in passive aggressive ways.

The other extreme is when they make all the decisions and never let you get your way at all. That's just narcissistic and selfish, and will also ruin a relationship.

A good way to approach this is with fairness and reciprocity, but communicating any essential need. "I choose the restaurant last time, this is your pick! Just please not seafood, you know the smell makes me gag." or "We saw a romantic comedy last time, so this time let's see the latest superhero action movie."


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

GreenOrb said:


> I clearly need to reread this book. Read it maybe a few years back but probably never fully implemented much in it for long.
> 
> I've been debating in my head the "fairness" of a tit for tat strategy. If my understanding of it is right then it basically goes:
> 
> ...


the most effective strategy is whatever works. so, if your wife is putting in the effort that you need to see from her, then all is good, and you wont mind the continued effort that you put in for her. 

the minute that stops working, try something else. if tit for tat gets you back on track, then go back to it until you don't need it anymore. just dont get stuck in the rut of constantly thinking about how things _should_ be. rather, respond to the way things _are_, with whatever actually works. 

just remember, the second you start building resentment, then what you are doing is no longer working.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

anonmd said:


> You seem to be under a mistaken impression that things you do will cause her to have sex with you. That is not going to happen.
> 
> Right now you are on *the seemingly universal default unhappy female service level of 'once a month if you are lucky', I swear it must be biologically embedded in their wiring as the minimum required to keep a guy on the hook*. You will not get more until she decides you will, you've been around for a long time with minimal complaints so why change?
> 
> ...


it IS biological... ovulation. 

funny, my wife used to make the excuse that having sex too often "cheapens the act". my response was that what cheapens it is to call it "scratching the monthly itch". which was how she referred to sex at the time...

im glad we are passed those days.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

GreenOrb said:


> I have been very attentive today, fetching her drinks, clearing up everyone I can, and asking if she is ok - she's worried about our cats at the moment that have just been spayed and one wasn't doing so well. Earlier in the day we were discussing them in the kitchen and we had a mutual hug which lasted for a *good 20 seconds*, again a rarity. When she pulled away I just let her go. Normally I would often hang on for longer, but clearly that has been crowding her so I just let her go. So far we have been getting on well all day, no frostiness which has become something of a norm between us in recent years. Whether this eventually leads to anything further this weekend we'll have to see. But at least feel like I have a semblance of control now. If I keep making an effort and I get nothing in return I can then just remove some nice things I'm doing. Wouldn't be punishment, just removal of things she likes me doing. I know I'll probably find this hard to do if it comes to it, but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.


I can guarantee you she is NOT timing the hugs. If you're approaching everything with that sort of mathematical evaluation, she's going to sense it and not respond well.

And of course you should be letting her go when she pulls away! If you usually try to cling longer than she wants, no wonder she wants to hug you less at all.

Lastly, don't do things because you expect that they will lead to some future reciprocity from her in return. That's a covert contract, 'nice guy' behaviour. Do things because she enjoys them, because you want to comfort her anxiety over the cats, or because you like doing them for her.

Then, after a while, you can decide if she is also doing things for you for similar reasons or not.



GreenOrb said:


> In the past I've often not quite kept to my word, like saying I'll be home from work at one time then getting home at another. Or simply forgetting to do something like pick something up from the shops. This has got a lot better since I've been working nearer home, my previous job consumed a lot of my mental energy which was probably unfair on my wife. I guess I've always been a bit unreliable.


You may feel like these are little things, but they added up to giving her the impression that you are unreliable, that you can't be counted on, that you don't care how it makes her feel.

Don't blame it on your job. You could have put reminders in your phone, contacted her to warn her you would be late once you realized you wouldn't be able to make your original plan. You chose to prioritize yourself, your job, and your needs over her feelings for many years.

It's going to take a while to overcome that history you built up, to show her you are prioritizing her first now.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

As'laDain said:


> it IS biological... ovulation.
> 
> funny, my wife used to make the excuse that having sex too often "cheapens the act". my response was that what cheapens it is to call it "scratching the monthly itch". which was how she referred to sex at the time...
> 
> im glad we are passed those days.


Nah, not really, or at least only vaguely. When it is directly related to ovulation they will bang you more than once that week.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

anonmd said:


> Nah, not really, or at least only vaguely. When it is directly related to ovulation they will bang you more than once that week.


not in my wifes case. two days a month, that was it.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

GO,

What I like about your,post below is - it is calm and thoughtful. As a result it’s balanced. 

I want to share some observations that will help you navigate the difficult terrain ahead. 

First and foremost as you try to change your dynamic - some things will work very well and some things will fail and that is ok as long as you pay attention. G2 may sometimes express her reactions in words, however most of the time she will use facial expression and tone of voice. It isn’t hard to decipher happy/unhappy by reading her tone and facial expression. Don’t ask why UNLESS she is directly contradictory. Meaning she requests something and you do it and she expresses irritation or disappointment via tone/body language. If that happens - calmly say: You seem dissatisfied - I honestly don’t know why that is. 

If she doesn’t explain - just make a short statement that you don’t like getting unexplained dissatisfaction when you are attempting to be helpful. But that comment needs be devoid of emotion, or tone or volume - loud volume is a huge display of weakness. You say it same as you’d say 3+3=6.

Don’t argue - don’t debate the point. If she tells you that’s tough luck for you - don’t respond. Once you have said what is true - in a concise manner - don’t ruin it by explaining or justifying or god forbid apologizing. 

She won’t feel the desire to please you less she respects you. And she won’t respect you if you:
- get emotional over her bad behavior and /or
- apologize for her bad behavior 

As far as this constant stream of I love you, you are so great - my only comment is this. Pay attention. If she responds happily to it - great. If it seems too much - not great. It is not great to radiate love and praise at someone in excess of what they are comfortable with. 

Ultimately this is all going to turn on one factor - how well do you project strength. If you do it well - she will WANT to spend time with you and want to please you. Part of that will be rebuilding the physical element of your marriage. 

That said - strength is solely about you. 
- Emotional self control 
- Being relaxed and playful
- Being organized and considerate 
- Being direct in a constructive way when she behaves badly (and she will) - if she uses a nasty tone - calmly ask why she is talking to you like that. Or just pause for a long time before responding - the pause conveys disapproval. 






GreenOrb said:


> I clearly need to reread this book. Read it maybe a few years back but probably never fully implemented much in it for long.
> 
> I've been debating in my head the "fairness" of a tit for tat strategy. If my understanding of it is right then it basically goes:
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

GO,

Since this is the world we live in - you need to recognize that - even though you ought to get slack for working late - since MOST of your income goes to the family - as opposed to your Ferrari’s - it isn’t quite that automatic. 

So if you expect you are going to have to work late, just say so. Tell her you will call when you leave work, but you aren’t certain when that will be. 

So - deep sigh - this one is best handled in a very scripted manner. 

If you mention having to work late and get the negative vibe just stick with: I would far prefer to be home with you than at the office. Overall this is a good job in terms of stability and income - and fortunately the schedule is mostly normal work hours. 

That’s it. Don’t apologize for being a good provider and having a good work ethic. But don’t be defensive as there is no reason to be. Just say you would rather be home and that the job offers an overall good balance of income vs disruption. 

If G2 stays pissy - don’t react. Her emotions are HER EMOTIONS. She is allowed to have and express them. If she isn’t screaming, cursing or throwing sharp objects at you - let her have the space to feel the way she feels. 

That doesn’t mean you need to be a doormat. If M2 is being difficult and then later when I call to say I’m heading home - she persists in being so - she just gets the ‘totally matter of fact’ delivery style. Not sharp, definitely not angry, just emotionally flat. As opposed to my normal friendly self. She knows. It means: I don’t like what you are doing. I’m not going to tell you to stop, but I’m not going to reward behavior I dislike. Note: I didn’t say - bad behavior. That’s a value judgement. I simply dislike it, and express that in a clear but non combative manner. 

But in the normal course of events - absent persistent negative behavior on her part - when I call to say I’m heading home I ask if she needs me to pick anything up on the way home. Works important and she is important also. The two aren’t mutually exclusive. 





Hopeful Cynic said:


> I can guarantee you she is NOT timing the hugs. If you're approaching everything with that sort of mathematical evaluation, she's going to sense it and not respond well.
> 
> And of course you should be letting her go when she pulls away! If you usually try to cling longer than she wants, no wonder she wants to hug you less at all.
> 
> ...


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

MEM2020 said:


> GO,
> 
> What I like about your,post below is - it is calm and thoughtful. As a result it’s balanced.
> 
> ...


Thanks for all the advice MEM2020. And thanks to everyone else who has posted on this thread and taken time out of their days to help a random stranger on the internet.

Feels like I have a long way to go and plenty of hard work ahead, but with some of the things I have learned here I now have some good reasons to be persistent. Previously I never really had any idea if anything I was doing was going to make any difference, so most of the time the brief changes I made to myself never lasted very long, and hence nothing changed. Since I have been posting here me and my wife have gone 5 straight days without any frostiness, arguments, unexplained silences, etc. It's been years since that's happened so certainly a good start. And she has been happier to be more physical with me.

I still have no idea if this will translate into shed loads more sex, but for now we are a slightly happier couple.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Another element of strength has to do with your ability to apply the serenity prayer to yourself. 

I seriously doubt you fully understand what turns G2 on and off. Well maybe you have a decent grasp of what turns her off - but - you really haven’t thought much about that part of your marriage. 

So - there are two drivers of sexual activity: 
1. The desire to please and it’s mirror the desire to avoid displeasing
2. Raw lust

If your partner feels a LOT of (1), you can get by with a modest amount of (2). And vice versa. 

I can rewrite (1) like so: Your partner has a lot of respect for how you feel

Generating (1) and (2) isn’t some dark art. Just a set of skills. Granted a set that aren’t acquired over night. 

Your house has a floor and a ceiling. Your marriage is the same. The floor represents stability and the ceiling - happiness and excitement. 

(1) tends to be more driven by creating an exceptionally stable floor. And (2) is more driven by creating a high ceiling. 

What makes M2 irresistible is she has a great mix of both. 

The best gauge of (1) is the degree of transparency G2 shows you. And the metric for (2) is some complex function of playfulness, laughter and sex. 





GreenOrb said:


> Thanks for all the advice MEM2020. And thanks to everyone else who has posted on this thread and taken time out of their days to help a random stranger on the internet.
> 
> Feels like I have a long way to go and plenty of hard work ahead, but with some of the things I have learned here I now have some good reasons to be persistent. Previously I never really had any idea if anything I was doing was going to make any difference, so most of the time the brief changes I made to myself never lasted very long, and hence nothing changed. Since I have been posting here me and my wife have gone 5 straight days without any frostiness, arguments, unexplained silences, etc. It's been years since that's happened so certainly a good start. And she has been happier to be more physical with me.
> 
> I still have no idea if this will translate into shed loads more sex, but for now we are a slightly happier couple.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

GreenOrb said:


> Thanks for all the advice MEM2020. And thanks to everyone else who has posted on this thread and taken time out of their days to help a random stranger on the internet.
> 
> Feels like I have a long way to go and plenty of hard work ahead, but with some of the things I have learned here I now have some good reasons to be persistent. Previously I never really had any idea if anything I was doing was going to make any difference, so most of the time the brief changes I made to myself never lasted very long, and hence nothing changed. Since I have been posting here me and my wife have gone 5 straight days without any frostiness, arguments, unexplained silences, etc. It's been years since that's happened so certainly a good start. And she has been happier to be more physical with me.
> 
> I still have no idea if this will translate into shed loads more sex, but for now we are a slightly happier couple.


dont stop posting man. of all the people i have seen here that had similar situations as yours, the only ones who were able to get long lasting positive changes were the ones who kept posting about what they were doing and how things were going. 

even if things are going great, still let us know. it would help the whole community to hear what you did to change things.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This is true for a few reasons. One is - that folks who begin to travel this path often struggle with implementation. 

For instance they confuse focusing on strength with focusing on power. Power is about your ability to directly influence or control a partner. Strength is just about you. While getting stronger may or may not have the side effect of giving you more power over G2. What it will DEFINITELY do however is give her LESS power over you. 

Top bracket strength enables you to invoke the immovable object super power. It does not give you the irresistible force super power. 

A partner will often fight you - sometimes all the way into divorce court - if they perceive your focus is on power. 

That same partner, won’t typically fight you at all on your quest to become stronger. 

And you’ve already told us something quite interesting about your dynamic with G2. I haven’t mentioned it before because I didn’t want to overwhelm you with content. When you return I’ll address it. 





As'laDain said:


> dont stop posting man. of all the people i have seen here that had similar situations as yours, the only ones who were able to get long lasting positive changes were the ones who kept posting about what they were doing and how things were going.
> 
> even if things are going great, still let us know. it would help the whole community to hear what you did to change things.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

....


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

Mr.Married said:


> I have difficulty reading so many post so I didn't read the whole thing. I see your first post wasn't long ago. The love language of my wife and I are just as you explained.
> With this identification we began our journey to implement what each other needed. I can say that it wasn't easy at first but became much easier as time went by. For us
> it took about 6 months until we had huge improvements with each being fulfilled. Once we were on the path it was easy to maintain. With the emotional walls torn down
> access to each others emotional needs are much clearer to identify. Things I did in the past that seemed like a chore for her come easily now. To swallow the resentment
> ...


It's good to hear a success story! I've read so many horror shows of affairs and divorce online in the last few years that I sometimes wondered if that was they way would eventually go. Hoping I can get to where you are.

You're spot on about oral. I'm not all that fussed about receiving, but love giving. "Sex in Marriage" has been added to the reading list. I've got plenty to get through!


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

As'laDain said:


> dont stop posting man. of all the people i have seen here that had similar situations as yours, the only ones who were able to get long lasting positive changes were the ones who kept posting about what they were doing and how things were going.
> 
> even if things are going great, still let us know. it would help the whole community to hear what you did to change things.





MEM2020 said:


> This is true for a few reasons. One is - that folks who begin to travel this path often struggle with implementation.
> 
> For instance they confuse focusing on strength with focusing on power. Power is about your ability to directly influence or control a partner. Strength is just about you. While getting stronger may or may not have the side effect of giving you more power over G2. What it will DEFINITELY do however is give her LESS power over you.
> 
> ...


Thanks both for you continued support. I've been away travelling last few days, so not much chance to post.

Also means I haven't seen my wife much in the last few days, but I've been doing a few things: I've been calling her and texting every day, and asking her about things I know she has been up to, to make sure she knows I am still thinking about her. Came back with a present which I put a bit of effort into picking. Gifts isn't her primary love language, but it never hurts I guess!

Often when I get back from time away she can be a bit frosty, (maybe because she feels like she has been abandoned?) but she was much friendlier this time when I got back. Still the odd remark about how busy she had been with the kids, etc, but nothing like she'd normally be. No more sex just yet but we were both knackered so no big deal.

Now a week and a half with no fallouts.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

GreenOrb said:


> Thanks both for you continued support. I've been away travelling last few days, so not much chance to post.
> 
> Also means I haven't seen my wife much in the last few days, but I've been doing a few things: I've been calling her and texting every day, and asking her about things I know she has been up to, to make sure she knows I am still thinking about her. Came back with a present which I put a bit of effort into picking. Gifts isn't her primary love language, but it never hurts I guess!
> 
> ...


sounds good. next step: be playful with her. flirt. make her laugh. 

basically, be good company.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The absence of conflict combined with the presence of playfulness and laughter = strong connection





As'laDain said:


> sounds good. next step: be playful with her. flirt. make her laugh.
> 
> basically, be good company.


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

As'laDain said:


> sounds good. next step: be playful with her. flirt. make her laugh.
> 
> basically, be good company.





MEM2020 said:


> The absence of conflict combined with the presence of playfulness and laughter = strong connection


So this has been my main focus in the past week, and has so far improved things between us more. We are back to our old selves of joking and taking the p*** out of each other which we used to do all the time but has been distinctly lacking in the last few years. I've also been rereading Married Man Sex Life Primer. I read it years ago and forgotten pretty much all of it, but now realised that my wife has probably been missing some serious dopamine hits from me, so hopefully the good atmosphere between us is now increasing this.

I've been ill all week so didn't feel like asking for sex much, but I'm pretty much ok now so asked tonight. Got a no. But I'm ok with it. My wife is right at the end of her cycle so quite hormonal and she'd had a rough day at work and got a bit upset about it. I did a bunch of things round the house to give her the chance to sort work out which she seemed to appreciate, but she was fairly emotionally tired come bed time so I wasn't going to get upset about being rejected. However she did suggest something might happen tomorrow if her time of the month hasn't yet kicked in. Not sure if that is just her just playing me or not, but didn't feel like it. We'll find out tomorrow.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Keep going...don't give up! Don't let rejection get to you as it will show up in ya'll communication. Keep going !!!! Keep going !!!! Do not give up !!!!! It will work !!!
We all want a success story! Keep it fun...keep smiling...keep talking. She needs the security of knowing this is permanent. IT WILL GET EASIER .... THE SEX YOU
NEED TO FILL YOUR EMOTIONAL CUP IS JUST AROUND THE CORNER......DON'T STOP !!! Continue to work on yourself. Don't expect immediate results from her.
It took my wife a little while to come around. Getting past the "this is about sex" and into "it is the way my partner experiences love" can take a little while.
You may have posted this in "sex in marriage" but it really needs to be "Long term success in Marriage"


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

Mr.Married said:


> Keep going...don't give up! Don't let rejection get to you as it will show up in ya'll communication. Keep going !!!! Keep going !!!! Do not give up !!!!! It will work !!!
> We all want a success story! Keep it fun...keep smiling...keep talking. She needs the security of knowing this is permanent. IT WILL GET EASIER .... THE SEX YOU
> NEED TO FILL YOUR EMOTIONAL CUP IS JUST AROUND THE CORNER......DON'T STOP !!! Continue to work on yourself. Don't expect immediate results from her.
> It took my wife a little while to come around. Getting past the "this is about sex" and into "it is the way my partner experiences love" can take a little while.
> You may have posted this in "sex in marriage" but it really needs to be "Long term success in Marriage"


I'm realising this is probably going to be a long slog, so thanks for the support. Good to hear things can change.

Happy to move it to the "Long term success in Marriage" section although is that for people who have already had success and are sharing their experiences?

Quick update since my last post. Our relationship is still good, no fallings out in over a month now, and I'm keeping up with doing things for her that she'll appreciate. However the flood gates have not yet opened in the bedroom. We've had sex once in the last month, usual plain vanilla. For now I'll just take when I can get it and worry about trying to make sex more interesting later. My wife wasn't initially in the mood, and it was a bit of a struggle to convince her. Not really how I want sex to be, but she's never thrown herself at me, a part from the odd drunk occasion early in our relationship, so I guess it's better than nothing.

A few other things have changed. I've changed my hairstyle, and it's quite a drastic change. My wife doesn't like it and has told me on numerous occasions. Previously, I possibly would have submitted and changed it back, but this time I'm not going to. I like my hair how it is so she is just going to have to live with it. While she may not like it I'm thinking that she may well end up respecting me more for sticking to my decision rather than backing down and going with what she wants.

I've also decided to masturbate less. I'm not sure if I was addicted exactly but feels like I was doing it too often. Not sure if a fully subscribe to everything the nofap movement espouses, but quitting masturbation in the last week has definately made me a lot hotter for my wife and in the last few days I have been regularly been asking for sex. Hasn't got me any yet, but my wife is now realising sex is much higher up on my agenda, and it means we are also talking about it more, which I think can only be a good trying. Although it's been a real struggle to stop! Will power winning so far.

I've also reinforced the tit for tat message. We had a brief chat this evening about it. I asked for sex and my wife said she was not in the mood. A few minutes later I must have then been looking thoughtful and my wife mentioned that she thought I was about to get angry with her again for being turned down. I used to do this when I didn't get sex but have now realised it is counter productive and stopped. I said that I was never going to get angry with her again, but at some point if things don't improve I will simply stop doing some nice things for her and named a few things I would stop. She looked slightly upset at the thought so hopefully she got the message.

Lastly, for the last few nights we have been cuddling in bed before we go to sleep. My wife used to just announce she was tired, turn her lamp off and go to sleep. If nothing else I guess this is bring some physical closeness back to our relationship.

So relationship good, but sex barely any different. But I've only been working on this for a month or two so trying to stay patient. Welcome any advice/feedback on the things I'm doing.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

so, when are you going to stop doing those things that she likes? so far, she isnt changing your behavior because she still gets what she wants. all you seem to do is talk about it. 

she is not going to "get the message" because it hasnt changed. your message has been and seeminly still is "i am going to tell you that sex is important to me, but im not going to do anything about it when you withhold it from me". 

you have had sex ONCE in the last month...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Physical playfulness - is a very powerful thing. Wrestling with no agenda is good. But it works a lot better if you are a good bit stronger. If that means lifting weights......





GreenOrb said:


> So this has been my main focus in the past week, and has so far improved things between us more. We are back to our old selves of joking and taking the p*** out of each other which we used to do all the time but has been distinctly lacking in the last few years. I've also been rereading Married Man Sex Life Primer. I read it years ago and forgotten pretty much all of it, but now realised that my wife has probably been missing some serious dopamine hits from me, so hopefully the good atmosphere between us is now increasing this.
> 
> I've been ill all week so didn't feel like asking for sex much, but I'm pretty much ok now so asked tonight. Got a no. But I'm ok with it. My wife is right at the end of her cycle so quite hormonal and she'd had a rough day at work and got a bit upset about it. I did a bunch of things round the house to give her the chance to sort work out which she seemed to appreciate, but she was fairly emotionally tired come bed time so I wasn't going to get upset about being rejected. However she did suggest something might happen tomorrow if her time of the month hasn't yet kicked in. Not sure if that is just her just playing me or not, but didn't feel like it. We'll find out tomorrow.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

GreenOrb said:


> Thanks for the feedback so far. To answer some of the questions:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wow this is all word for word like the story of my marriage. Perhaps more extreme (sex 8 times a year is a bit ‘much’!) although perhaps if it included last month of pregnancy then the 6 months recovery after birth perhaps we did have sex as little as that or maybe even less...

If sex was good in the beginning then it’s a good sign that you can come back from this.

If your wife is anything like mine (and she sounds exactly like my wife) then all these hang ups are mainly in her head. She needs to first understand how important sex is to you and that it’s a dealbreaker for you marriage. I wouldn’t recommend the love languages stuff in your case so much as you sound pretty self-aware already. ‘Acts of Service’ will just enable her to continue neglecting this part of a marriage. Tell her in no uncertain terms that the lack of sex will eventually push you away and destroy your marriage.

Secondly, schedule ‘sex nights’. Say every Tuesday and Friday or Sunday morning or something like that. But it needs to be something fairly regular with no exceptions!. She obviously has a lot of things on her mind throughout the day and she puts sex towards the bottom of her priorities but if she has a chance to prepare herself mentally for sex throughout the day, she is more likely to ‘let go’ and enjoy it later that night. Plus it will eventually become a ‘habit’ and eventually she will learn to be able to enjoy it spontaneously too...

Thirdly sex itself...my wife likes very dominant sex. She used to initiate fights when she felt the pressure for sex was on (either to get out of it or to get herself riled up so that perhaps she could feel guilty enough to enjoy it or perhaps to rile me upso that she could get ‘angry sex’) and she would also turn her back to me often...and then seemed like she would suffer and I would often feel like a terrible human being for still forcing myself onto her occasionally (not in a physically aggressive way - more on that later) but just basically do things to her while she was just lying there pretending to be dead or sometimes sob or cry. I don’t know what the hell was going through her mind because she would not tell me but what was so confusing that she was also often very wet at the same time. I’m pretty sure she was feeling guilty that she wasn’t feeling something she was ‘supposed’ to feel or wasn’t able to just ‘open up’ mentally and couldn’t really reconcile her physical response with her emotional response. Something was holding her back and she was very frustrated about it.
I always thought it was my fault. But I never stopped trying.

Anyway, in the end these encounters somehow turned into more and more and the more aggressive and dominant I was, the more that side of her would take charge over her mental blocks. She eventually would turn her back to me, as a signal to start things with her. It seemed all very twisted to me at the time but I now understand this dynamic much better and while I still don’t understand the exact mechanics of it, instinctively at least, I now know exactly what to do for her to almost be begging for it at times.

It was as if she had this other part to her, that came trough independently of her mind that was all closed up and holding this ‘animal’ back. Eventually that type of sex ‘freed’ her and more recently we have been having some of the most intense sex I could ever imagine is possible.

Have you seen animals ****? Go to the zoo and take notes. Those are all the ‘love languages’ you need.

This won’t work with everyone but from what you have described (that the sex was good initially and that she doesn’t feel repulsed by you, and that she doesn’t have a lover stashed somewhere - check that also btw), I feel like this approach might work.

You have to first throw away everything you ever learnt about how to be a ‘gentleman’ in bed, how to ‘nice’ women into doing things etc. Doesn’t mean you need to become a selfish a-hole; leave that for the bedroom (occasionally). She needs to feel she can trust you to ‘overpower’ her both emotionally (and sometimes physically) and ‘use’ her for your own gratification, only then might she be able to overcome her own hang ups and allow herself to enjoy it.

In any case, this is just something that worked for us.

Ps: this is of course not the only type of sex to engage in for the sex life to be fulfilling; it’s just one possible way out for her from the mental prison she put herself in.
Eventually you need to keep it mixed & diversified but it’s much easier to expand your repertoire with a responsive partner..


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> You are crowding her. Think about it for a second... You indicate she is insecure, yet you insist on still hugging her and initiating physical contact when you know she doesn't want it.
> 
> Are you sure she is the insecure one?
> @MEM2020
> ...



I am not sure that has anything to do with being ‘insecure’.  we ALL do it sometimes and insecurity can sometimes come afterwards.
This happens by default: When we express our feelings towards the person we love, we leave ourselves completely vulnerable to the possibility that it may not be mutual. That’s why some people try not to show their feelings even if they feel them strongly.

Love ‘works’ best as a symbiosis and when it doesn’t (and it’s one sided), one is flooded with insecurity. 
I don’t think it’s the other way around!





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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> when two groups or entities no longer trust each other, the most effective strategy to bring about the end of the conflict is tit for tat.



Yes I’m also not a big fan of the tit for tat thing. I think it’s too fussy; there are too many reasons why a person may do or not do something and there’s often no reason to always have to keep adjusting your behaviour in the hope that the other person will notice it...There’s also something inherently unhealthy and ‘paybacky’ about it.

I prefer addressing stuff head on in a conversation and try sort it out that way first. Then take more drastic measures if necessary. But I like to act and be myself around my wife; be attentive/loving and not have to keep count how much I should be doing, according to my ‘assessment’ of her most recent behaviour.
Sounds tiring.




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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This is worth reading again GO.

She’s hormonal plus had a crap day at work. And you initiate. Which makes it look as if you are either not aware, or not to concerned about how she feels. 




GreenOrb said:


> So this has been my main focus in the past week, and has so far improved things between us more. We are back to our old selves of joking and taking the p*** out of each other which we used to do all the time but has been distinctly lacking in the last few years. I've also been rereading Married Man Sex Life Primer. I read it years ago and forgotten pretty much all of it, but now realised that my wife has probably been missing some serious dopamine hits from me, so hopefully the good atmosphere between us is now increasing this.
> 
> I've been ill all week so didn't feel like asking for sex much, but I'm pretty much ok now so asked tonight. Got a no. But I'm ok with it. My wife is right at the end of her cycle so quite hormonal and she'd had a rough day at work and got a bit upset about it. I did a bunch of things round the house to give her the chance to sort work out which she seemed to appreciate, but she was fairly emotionally tired come bed time so I wasn't going to get upset about being rejected. However she did suggest something might happen tomorrow if her time of the month hasn't yet kicked in. Not sure if that is just her just playing me or not, but didn't feel like it. We'll find out tomorrow.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

GreenOrb said:


> I haven't asked her recently but in the past she has said that she finds me attractive, likes my sense of humour, and thinks I'm a good dad. She'd like me to talk to her more and take charge more and be more ambitious, essentially be more of a "man".



Ah exactly what I wrote in the first post. You are lucky she told you. Many women keep quiet and the guy has to figure out through trial and error...which can be never figured out.
Go and take charge yesterday.
Everything I read so far from you indicates that you have been doing the exact opposite.




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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

GreenOrb said:


> I certainly appreciate all the advice so far. So more details of my last 48 hours:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This hurts to read a little bit...What is it that you told her you need in those ‘30 seconds’ the day before? A cup of tea or sex??

Why didn’t you turn her around straight away and ‘man-handled’ her as soon as she said she was ‘sorry’ and let you back into bed? Maybe it’s me but I think you might be missing vital signals here. If you continue playing tea parties with her, she will stop sending you ‘please **** me already’ signals and you will be buying another useless book to keep you occupied.




GreenOrb said:


> I have been very attentive today, fetching her drinks, clearing up everyone I can, and asking if she is ok - she's worried about our cats at the moment that have just been spayed and one wasn't doing so well. Earlier in the day we were discussing them in the kitchen and we had a mutual hug which lasted for a good 20 seconds, again a rarity. When she pulled away I just let her go. Normally I would often hang on for longer, but clearly that has been crowding her so I just let her go. So far we have been getting on well all day, no frostiness which has become something of a norm between us in recent years. Whether this eventually leads to anything further this weekend we'll have to see. But at least feel like I have a semblance of control now. If I keep making an effort and I get nothing in return I can then just remove some nice things I'm doing..snip



Oh my god. 🤢
I think you are a really great guy (from your posts) but you need to take off that pink apron of yours and put your balls back on before she goes searching for them somewhere else.

Just don’t speak with her. for 30 seconds or 30 minutes. Just make a rule that until you have sex with her, you won’t be using your mouth (unless it’s on her). Do it at least twice a week. No talking. Tell her only moaning is allowed.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

WilliamM said:


> I decided to add:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Your wife doesn’t strike me as ‘mentally ill’ as you proclaim her to be. A dominant/submissive dynamic seems pretty common. I don’t know how common it is in everyday life (to some extent, there’s always a bit of that element as it’s never completely equal between two partners) but it’s certainly common in sex among many couples and it’s almost without exception in animals.

Why do you think she has a ‘syndrome’?



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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

GreenOrb said:


> I've also decided to masturbate less....


I really don’t understand what it is you are trying to do to yourself.




GreenOrb said:


> I asked for sex and my wife said she was not in the mood.


You don’t ‘ask’ for sex, you TAKE sex. Tell her she can worry about being in the mood later, after you are done with the sex.



GreenOrb said:


> A few minutes later I must have then been looking thoughtful and my wife mentioned that she thought I was about to get angry with her again for being turned down. I used to do this when I didn't get sex but have now realised it is counter productive and stopped. I said that I was never going to get angry with her again, but at some point if things don't improve I will simply stop doing some nice things for her and named a few things I would stop. She looked slightly upset at the thought so hopefully she got the message.


I really don’t think she will. The only message she will get is that not only can she turn you down anytime she wants but also make you do a little happy dance afterwards.





GreenOrb said:


> Lastly, for the last few nights we have been cuddling in bed before we go to sleep. My wife used to just announce she was tired, turn her lamp off and go to sleep. If nothing else I guess this is bring some physical closeness back to our relationship.
> 
> 
> 
> So relationship good, but sex barely any different. But I've only been working on this for a month or two so trying to stay patient. Welcome any advice/feedback on the things I'm doing.



You are moving away from your destination thinking that you are getting closer. It will not change until you take the bull by the balls: stop trying to nice her into sex. It will never happen that way.




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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

Take the 5 love languages quiz and compare results afterwards.

Profiles Archive - The 5 Love Languages®


- I am Physical highest rating and Quality Time second highest rating. HD Adventurous.


- Mrs.CuddleBug is Acts of Service highest rating and quality time second highest rating. LD conservative.


- It will help bridge the gap somewhat, but in the end, the LD must make serious effort or nothing will change.


- Based on research, when men have sex only 3x week, it lowers the chances of heart attacks and other issues up to 50%. So us men need sex for our physical health and well being. We are built this way and it also raises our testosterone levels, which gives us energy, great mood and helps us deal with stressful situations.


- It's sad that even today 2018 ladies still don't get it......and then a lot of us guys go to porn, sex toys, etc., and our ladies get mad and don't like that either.


- It's so simple. Take care of your man in the bedroom and he will take care of you.


- The list of reasons not to be in the mood are endless and not addressing the real issue why she has low sex drive.


- Could be abuse when she was younger and never got help.


- Could be from a bad ex.


- Could be insecure about her body image, needs to get in shape but never does anything about it.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> You don’t ‘ask’ for sex, you TAKE sex. Tell her she can worry about being in the mood later, after you are done with the sex.


Um, yeah, you don't 'ask' for sex, but you don't just TAKE it either. That's just assault.

What you do is make your partner want sex. Figure out what needs to be in place for that to happen. It will vary tremendously with the person.

Maybe you need to change her thinking from 'sex is something my husband needs and I have to do it like a chore even if I don't enjoy it' to 'sex is something that makes both of us feel good.'

Maybe you need to reduce stress in her life so she can be relaxed enough to have time to enjoy sex.

Maybe you need to connect with her more emotionally for a while so she feels like you love her for her, not just for access to her body.

Maybe her default state is 'not in the mood for sex' and you have to figure out how to make that change BEFORE bluntly 'asking' for sex. She might need a warmup of some sort. Responsive desire at play.

Etc. It could be any number of things. Picking the wrong thing and assuming it will be a magic solution will be an exercise in frustration for both of you. It's up to you to figure it out, and you have to talk to her and make her feel comfortable enough to help with that project. You can't just talk at her for 30s and assume her silence means her full understanding. It's probably more of a 'oh not this again, hey, he shut up already, phew.'


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

As'laDain said:


> so, when are you going to stop doing those things that she likes? so far, she isnt changing your behavior because she still gets what she wants. all you seem to do is talk about it.
> 
> she is not going to "get the message" because it hasnt changed. your message has been and seeminly still is "i am going to tell you that sex is important to me, but im not going to do anything about it when you withhold it from me".
> 
> you have had sex ONCE in the last month...


Fair point.

So I've been fairly vocal in my desire for sex in the last week, and we had sex a couple of nights back. That's a break of 11 days between sex which is the first time we've done it twice in a month since the kids were born, so something like 7 years. However there's good and bad to this. The good is my wife has said she recognises the efforts I've been making and agrees that it would be good for our relationship to have sex more than once a month, hence the sex.

BUT, the sex itself was weird. At the end of the day it was sex so I'll take it, but after she agreed to give it a go, my wife displayed almost no interest, and seemed to actively stop me from trying anything to turn her on (caressing, kissing, etc). Finally I just jumped on top of her and she finally showed some interest right near the end. I've currently got no idea what to make of it. I certainly do not want to be having sex with an inanimate object. Half the joy of sex is knowing my wife is enjoying it too.

It did feel like I was making progress but this feels like a whole new problem entirely.. :scratchhead:


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

GreenOrb said:


> my wife displayed almost no interest, and seemed to actively stop me from trying anything to turn her on (*caressing, kissing, etc*).


Yeah, don't do that. 



GreenOrb said:


> Finally I just jumped on top of her and she finally showed some interest right near the end.


Do more of that. 

Do some research on submissive sex and responsive desire.
You don't want to try and make her aroused through kissing, caressing and all that BS. Until she gets rid of her hang ups, it's a complete waste of time.

She will get aroused from the feeling that you are aroused and from the anticipation that you are about to do unspeakable things to her...It's the only way she will be able to distract herself from her hang ups about sex and eventually enjoy _any_ type of sex.


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> Wow this is all word for word like the story of my marriage. Perhaps more extreme (sex 8 times a year is a bit ‘much’!) although perhaps if it included last month of pregnancy then the 6 months recovery after birth perhaps we did have sex as little as that or maybe even less...
> 
> If sex was good in the beginning then it’s a good sign that you can come back from this.
> 
> ...


I think you could be right. I'm fairly certain my wife has some guilt issues going on. She has mentioned that if she has sex when she doesn't really want to then it makes her feel bad. And she's definitely not dominant in bed, so maybe I just need to take charge more and to some degree force the issue. But how do I do that without be an *hole?

I tried putting sex nights in the diary a few years back but she didn't like the idea. Says she likes sex to be more spontaneous. Should I just tell her sex night is going in the diary anyway?


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> Yeah, don't do that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks, that makes sense. In the past I've always tried to warm her up through foreplay. But recently it's been a struggle, and the sex we had a couple of nights back being the worst of it. Direct approach then...


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

CuddleBug said:


> - Could be insecure about her body image, needs to get in shape but never does anything about it.


It is definitely this. But I've never understood why. As far as I'm concerned my wife is in great shape, goes to the gym fairly regularly and has a flat stomach. I feel very lucky to be married to such a hot woman, but she always tells me how awful she looks. Doesn't matter how often I tell her she's gorgeous, she never listens.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

GreenOrb said:


> I think you could be right. I'm fairly certain my wife has some guilt issues going on. She has mentioned that if she has sex when she doesn't really want to then it makes her feel bad. And she's definitely not dominant in bed, so maybe I just need to take charge more and to some degree force the issue. But how do I do that without be an *hole?


Tell her, you understand that she doesn't always want sex and that you will just 'want it for the both of you'. But she has to let you. That you don't think your marriage will survive like this in the medium term and that you both need to have sex regularly in order to 'save your marriage'. By all means, be an ******* and be selfish in the bedroom; she will thank you for it afterwards.

Wanting to **** your wife badly is not being an *******. Her or society has conditioned you to have these weird thoughts...In a healthy marriage the wife _wants_ her husband to desire her like crazy. You need to show her not only that you do but that she has no choice but to let you.



GreenOrb said:


> I tried putting sex nights in the diary a few years back but she didn't like the idea. Says she likes sex to be more spontaneous. Should I just tell her sex night is going in the diary anyway?


Yes, definitely. She likes 'The Idea' of sex being spontaneous (who doesn't) but it won't happen. Schedule sex and follow through, whether it rains or shines otherwise create some type of punishment. Extra spanking or something else..Use your imagination.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

GreenOrb said:


> Thanks, that makes sense. In the past I've always tried to warm her up through foreplay. But recently it's been a struggle, and the sex we had a couple of nights back being the worst of it. Direct approach then...


Direct but dominant. And make sure it doesn't last as long as your 30-second conversations. Create a fantasy or role play. If she tells you she is not feeling comfortable having sex today, ask her to pretend you are a stranger who just broke into the house, so she _should_ be uncomfortable and it's ok to be uncomfortable.. Tie her eyes and take it from there. Don't want to go into too much detail - I think they have rules about this - but maybe do a few google searches how to do this properly. There should be a lot of build up.
Orgasms happen entirely in the brain as does the rest. If it's difficult to 'loose yourselves' at home, go somewhere for a weekend or just a night.
Most importantly: she needs to feel how much you want it and how much it turns you on otherwise it won't really work.


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> Direct but dominant. And make sure it doesn't last as long as your 30-second conversations. Create a fantasy or role play. If she tells you she is not feeling comfortable having sex today, ask her to pretend you are a stranger who just broke into the house, so she _should_ be uncomfortable and it's ok to be uncomfortable.. Tie her eyes and take it from there. Don't want to go into too much detail - I think they have rules about this - but maybe do a few google searches how to do this properly. There should be a lot of build up.
> Orgasms happen entirely in the brain as does the rest. If it's difficult to 'loose yourselves' at home, go somewhere for a weekend or just a night.
> Most importantly: she needs to feel how much you want it and how much it turns you on otherwise it won't really work.


I will give this a go. My wife comes across as a prim and proper lady, but thinking about it, the men she always finds attractive are the brooding, rough, take what they want type men (ie, Heathcliffe from Wuthering Heights). So feels like this has a chance.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

GreenOrb said:


> I will give this a go. My wife comes across as a prim and proper lady,



Those are the kinkiest ones.
Btw have a drink together first if it’s going to be the first time...



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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Those are the kinkiest ones.
> Btw have a drink together first if it’s going to be the first time...
> 
> 
> ...


But don't get drunk, as you should both be in full control of your faculties, which you need to stay in tune with one another.

Trust is very, very important. For her to fully let go and submit to you, she needs to trust that you are in control enough of yourself and the situation to be aware of her signals (verbal or otherwise), and that you will respect her sexual limits/boundaries.

I strongly urge you to discuss in advance before introducing any kink, and find out what she wants to try, what she would be ok with, and what she definitely does not consent to. It is a very bad idea to just spring that on your partner out of the blue when they are in a very vulnerable state, both physically and emotionally.

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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

GreenOrb said:


> It is definitely this. But I've never understood why. As far as I'm concerned my wife is in great shape, goes to the gym fairly regularly and has a flat stomach. I feel very lucky to be married to such a hot woman, but she always tells me how awful she looks. Doesn't matter how often I tell her she's gorgeous, she never listens.



- That's from the constant models on tv commmercials, tv shows, movies, porn stars, etc.


- Women see that their entire life and feel insecure and they're always unattractive and fat. Of course they are hot but don't see this.


- Some women are confident and its not a problem but I'd say the majority are not thinking this way.


- I've heard of hot ladies, models, who are insecure about their bodies and conservative about sex, and even LD.


- I've heard of average ladies who could lose some weight and are crazy adventurous in the sack HD.......


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

GreenOrb said:


> I will give this a go. My wife comes across as a prim and proper lady, but thinking about it, the men she always finds attractive are the brooding, rough, take what they want type men (ie, Heathcliffe from Wuthering Heights). So feels like this has a chance.





inmyprime said:


> Those are the kinkiest ones.
> Btw have a drink together first if it’s going to be the first time...




Made me laugh.

I'm _very_ prim and proper in public.

My friends and the people I work with have absolutely no clue what I'm like in private.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

:grin2::grin2::grin2:



If you want to be happy for the rest of your life, never make a pretty women your wife.........


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> Do some research on submissive sex and responsive desire.
> You don't want to try and make her aroused through kissing, caressing and all that BS. Until she gets rid of her hang ups, it's a complete waste of time.


So I've spent the day reading up on responsive desire, in between ferrying children to various events. I've spent years reading about sex online, and can't believe I've never come across this before. I can now see that my wife is almost certainly someone who only has responsive desire. It explains why virtually every time we have had sex in the last 10 years, it has been a struggle to get going, but by the end of it she is having an orgasm and seems to enjoy it.

I think it will help to explain this to her - she recently said that she only really wants to have sex when she's in the mood, so she now needs to realise that she doesn't need to be in the mood. She will get her mood from me.

Next step - figuring out how to be dominant.


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

minimalME said:


> Made me laugh.
> 
> I'm _very_ prim and proper in public.
> 
> My friends and the people I work with have absolutely no clue what I'm like in private.


ie, kinky?


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

GreenOrb said:


> ie, kinky?


Not really. I mean, truly kinky people would find me totally vanilla.

In public, I'm very reserved and private - I keep to myself. I rarely cuss or saying anything off color or offensive. I dress stylishly, but modest. I don't go to parties or bars. I'm a loner and more of an extreme introvert. I rarely share anything, except what I write here.

To give you an idea - my co-workers (who I also live with) apologize for cussing in front of me. They tend to view me as conservative and innocent. (But I'm in the middle of a heavy party culture.)

Actually, I stopped dating in December, and that's when I came back to TAM as a social outlet.

So anyway, at the moment, I'm nunnish. 

But, generally speaking, in a sexual context, things that would make me uncomfortable in public, I'd find exciting in private. I drink to feel uninhibited, I'm more submissive and like to be told what to do. Occasionally, I like to switch with light bondage _on someone else_ - that'd be very fun. Being crude during sex is a turn on. And this is within the realm of commitment and not casual.

I definitely see myself as being a lady in public and whorish when it comes to sex. But that's coming from someone who's still on the tame side.


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## ChargingCharlie (Nov 14, 2012)

CuddleBug said:


> - That's from the constant models on tv commmercials, tv shows, movies, porn stars, etc.
> 
> 
> - Women see that their entire life and feel insecure and they're always unattractive and fat. Of course they are hot but don't see this.
> ...


This is so true. My wife has a close friend who is an attractive married woman, and I'd bet she and her husband haven't had sex in ten years (my wife says they sleep in separate rooms). Also have friends/neighbors and the wife is a very attractive, petite woman, and based on comments that I've heard, they don't get it on more than a few times per year (of course, this is what I hear and certainly may have no basis in reality). Funny thing is this neighbor is always saying that she needs to lose weight, which is ridiculous. She's petite but has a nice body and takes care of herself. 

On the other hand, the woman I was involved with before my wife was average looking and had a curvy build, and she was insatiable. She knew she wasn't a hottie, but she had confidence and wasn't shy about what she wanted, which was lots of sex.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

FeministInPink said:


> But don't get drunk, as you should both be in full control of your faculties, which you need to stay in tune with one another.
> 
> Trust is very, very important. For her to fully let go and submit to you, she needs to trust that you are in control enough of yourself and the situation to be aware of her signals (verbal or otherwise), and that you will respect her sexual limits/boundaries.
> 
> ...




Yes I didn’t mean going full ‘American Psycho’ on her...This can be done in Chapter 2 on Thursdays...
just a bit of innocent domestic ‘rape’ (with full permission!) can go a long way sometimes...

Joking aside, all you need to do is judge the dynamic a certain way, so that she is fully aware that you are very SURE what it is you want to get from her sexually. And that nothing can stand in the way until you get it because you want it so much! (aside from the safe word). 

Ps: the drink is for her to relax. It does wonders for some women (that’s what my best friend tells me. my wife doesn’t really drink. Nor do I). You yourself shouldn’t be drinking (much). Some friends tell me it can affect the ‘hardness’ side of things...

PPS: if it’s a definitive no (an actual ‘no’, not a pretend ‘no’), then whatever you do, don’t sulk.

Maybe you should wear an invisible headset so I can give you hilarious tips ‘live’ while it’s happening (or not happening)🤫 


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

GreenOrb said:


> I think it will help to explain this to her - she recently said that she only really wants to have sex when she's in the mood, so she now needs to realise that she doesn't need to be in the mood. *She will get her mood from me. *



Exactly. You will get far in this, as you are a very good ‘student’. 

Just don’t spend too much time on the ‘explaining’, what it is you are going to do. Unless you are doing the dirty talk thing...

Maybe show it to her a bit more instead. The thing about ‘responsive desire’ is that it can turn into ‘spontaneous desire’ after some time, if you become really good at it. 

It’s how Pavlov’s dog became self aware: the lesser known fact about this experiment...




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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

minimalME said:


> Not really. I mean, truly kinky people would find me totally vanilla.
> 
> In public, I'm very reserved and private - I keep to myself. I rarely cuss or saying anything off color or offensive. I dress stylishly, but modest. I don't go to parties or bars. I'm a loner and more of an extreme introvert. I rarely share anything, except what I write here.
> 
> ...



Maybe it’s because you haven’t yet ‘pushed’ yourself towards your full potential. 

But yes, it took me a while to understand that sex is more like escapism for some people...things and rules that apply in real life, can and should be pushed and broken in the bedroom. Different people like to break different rules so it has to be customised correctly.

But I don’t mean to sound like I only show up in leather outfit and a whip for breakfast...
I think a bit of domination is a possible ‘ice breaker’ if sex has been getting ‘stale’ or if there are mental hangups. This can help pave the way towards the more ‘connected’ type of sex (which is what I normally like best and which is difficult sometimes to have because both partner’s heads need to be in the right space, at the right time, at the SAME time. Sometimes winning the lottery has a bigger chance than that).


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> The thing about ‘responsive desire’ is that it can turn into ‘spontaneous desire’ after some time, if you become really good at it.


Spot on! This is me.


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

minimalME said:


> GreenOrb said:
> 
> 
> > ie, kinky?
> ...


Thanks for the insight. From a public perspective my wife is probably quite similar. She’s likes going out with friends she knows well, but is definitely an introvert (as am I). She dresses well and also modest, doesn’t like showing much flesh.

Her inhibitions do come down when she is drunk. A long time ago we did have some tear your clothes off like sessions, once I remember when we watched some porn first. But neither of us drinks that much these days so we need to find another way.

I’m hoping there might be a kinky minx in there and I just need to unlock her, but then I guess all husbands hope for that!


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

GreenOrb said:


> I’m hoping there might be a kinky minx in there and I just need to unlock her, but then I guess all husbands hope for that!


Surely there are things that she'd like that would turn her on?

Candlelit baths? You being in control? Her being in control? It seems like if one were to put her mind to it, there has to be something. 

It's frustrating and sad that so many people don't think it's worth the effort to discover and maintain that sensual side of themselves.


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> Maybe you should wear an invisible headset so I can give you hilarious tips ‘live’ while it’s happening (or not happening)🤫
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Lol. I’ll let you know on that one...!

I know the domination thing I’m going to find difficult to start with. I’ve always been something of a “gent” in bed and very attentive. This served me well at the start of our relationship (and my previous one) but clearly it’s not going to work anymore. I’ve always had a slight reluctance to impose myself on my wife, although to some degree this has gone out the window when I’ve been drunk, probably why it was always good when I was. So clearly it’s time to change.


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

minimalME said:


> Surely there are things that she'd like that would turn her on?
> 
> Candlelit baths? You being in control? Her being in control? It seems like if one were to put her mind to it, there has to be something. <a href="http://talkaboutmarriage.com/images/smilies/smile.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Smile" ></a>
> 
> It's frustrating and sad that so many people don't think it's worth the effort to discover and maintain that sensual side of themselves.


Totally agree with you. Part of her problem is she doesn’t even like talking about sex, like it is some dirty thing that shouldn’t be discussed. Must be some guilt issues somewhere. So for now I’m just going to have to figure out a way to do this thinking for her. Have to wait and see if I crash and burn!


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

GreenOrb said:


> Lol. I’ll let you know on that one...!
> 
> I know the domination thing I’m going to find difficult to start with. I’ve always been something of a “gent” in bed and very attentive. This served me well at the start of our relationship (and my previous one) but clearly it’s not going to work anymore. I’ve always had a slight reluctance to impose myself on my wife, although to some degree this has gone out the window when I’ve been drunk, probably why it was always good when I was. So clearly it’s time to change.




Yes of course. It takes practice and a lot of trial and error. Start small. Like for example being very persistent about sex initiation, can be a form of domination (‘acts of service’ in the hope of some sex is the opposite). As can also be being extremely confident and leading during sex. You don’t need to spring this all onto her too suddenly.

The whole ‘gent’ thing...while really great for everyday interaction (don’t lose it), is a real vagina-dryer for many in bed. Find the bad boy in you and ‘punish’ her for all the sexual urges she is going to experience involuntarily. Leave the tea downstairs for now.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

You can run either of two very different plays with someone like your wife. 

1. The dominance play which you will greatly struggle with as it feels wrong to you. 
2. Or an initiation sequence that feels good to her even though she starts out feeling no desire. 

Or you can do a hybrid which is what wrestling is. It’s a playfully dominant move. 







GreenOrb said:


> Lol. I’ll let you know on that one...!
> 
> I know the domination thing I’m going to find difficult to start with. I’ve always been something of a “gent” in bed and very attentive. This served me well at the start of our relationship (and my previous one) but clearly it’s not going to work anymore. I’ve always had a slight reluctance to impose myself on my wife, although to some degree this has gone out the window when I’ve been drunk, probably why it was always good when I was. So clearly it’s time to change.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> You can run either of two very different plays with someone like your wife.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Domination is a spectrum thing, not an either/or. Like you mention playful wrestling is a subtle dominant move (unless she is much stronger than him  

I wasn’t comfortable with it either or didn’t know I was capable of it.
It’s like playing a game of charades; nobody is particularly comfortable with it and it’s sometimes ok to make a fool out of yourself for the sake of everyone’s enjoyment. 

I didn’t mean to imply he needs to get really serious/‘professional’ about it. It’s just to get the psychology right to understand that what women like sometimes, can be extremely counter intuitive. But they often won’t tell you this or admit to it (as it beats the purpose or is a huge turn off).

The fact that they did some of it under influence of alcohol and with the aid of porn (and that it was fun!), should all have been indications of the direction where things should be steered back towards.


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> Domination is a spectrum thing, not an either/or. Like you mention playful wrestling is a subtle dominant move (unless she is much stronger than him
> 
> I wasn’t comfortable with it either or didn’t know I was capable of it.
> It’s like playing a game of charades; nobody is particularly comfortable with it and it’s sometimes ok to make a fool out of yourself for the sake of everyone’s enjoyment.
> ...


It’s true I’ll probably find it uncomfortable at first. But I’m probably more uncertain about what my wife’s reaction to it will be. I guess I’ll just need to take small steps and see how it goes.

So, we’re going out for dinner tonight, just the two of us. We’ve been getting on great for a while now so I’m looking forward to it. I’ve hinted that I will try it on tonight. But it’s near the end of wife’s cycle so hormones are down and she has also hinted she has a long day at work tomorrow (I’m off work) and so doesn’t want to be hassled. Do I just stuff it and go for it anyway?


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> The fact that they did some of it under influence of alcohol and with the aid of porn (and that it was fun!), should all have been indications of the direction where things should be steered back towards.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Just to clarify the porn only happened once and she was very drunk. I’ve tried since when sober but always been told no.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

inmyprime said:


> Your wife doesn’t strike me as ‘mentally ill’ as you proclaim her to be. A dominant/submissive dynamic seems pretty common. I don’t know how common it is in everyday life (to some extent, there’s always a bit of that element as it’s never completely equal between two partners) but it’s certainly common in sex among many couples and it’s almost without exception in animals.
> 
> Why do you think she has a ‘syndrome’?
> 
> ...




My wife was diagnosed by psychiatrists as having masochistic personality disorder, in 1984. That was before it was removed as a diagnosis and personally disorder.

Currently the discussion is whether or not to include “self destructive personality disorder” in the newest upcoming DSM after 5. Which is another name for masochistic personality. It is still treated as a disorder if the person who has the syndrome feels it causes them stress.

We have worked with her shrinks for years to lessen the severity of her symptoms. 

My wife has masochistic personality syndrome. Verified by all the psychiatrists she has seen. She saw 4 different ones because of her mental illnesses, the other one being pathological lying, or pseudologia phantastica.

The pathological illness is definitely caused by childhood trauma. I don’t speak to causality regarding her masochistic syndrome or submissive attitude. She expressed outrage when I made some vague remark once about that and her psychiatrist made certain I understand I should not do armchair analysis.

However I will note I think the best authority on masochism today is Dr Roy Baumeister. I think anyone who wants to know about these issues should read his work. Baumeister was named an ISI highly cited researcher in 2003 and 2014. https://clarivate.com/hcr/


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

We went out for dinner last night. My wife’s period had just started so she has now closed up shop for the next 4 days.

However we talked about us and sex. In a smallish nutshell:
- I explained responsive vs spontaneous desire
- I said that her not ever being in the mood is no longer an excuse since she is responsive
- I told her we need to put a sex night in the diary since it is the only way we will ever get around to it. I then took her iPhone off her and put it in her diary
- sex night is currently every 2 weeks. Feeling like I maybe short changed myself now but told her I want to get more regular than that and this was the start
- she mentioned if she didn’t have sex for the next 6 months she’s not sure if she would be that bothered (ouch!)
- I said I would take more charge in the bedroom although wasn’t explicit on how I would do it. I’m thinking I’ll start with playful wrestling and take it from there. She agreed she wants me to take the lead more

All this then got me thinking afterwards:
- Over the last 15 years I’ve been nervous to try anything new with my wife for a couple of reasons: probably the second time we ever had sex I tried to give her oral and she covered herself up and didn’t even want me to look at it, so oral has been out ever since; and maybe a year or so later I got adventurous trying some new positions and ever since she thinks I want to “swing from the chandeliers” and she isn’t up for that kind of acrobatic sex
- her comment about not being that bothered about sex in the next 6 months means I’m clearly boring the s*** out of her in bed

So it’s now becoming blindingly obvious to me I need to pull my thumb out of my a**, man up and show her who’s boss in the bedroom. Even if none of this works at least I will have tried something new rather than sticking with my touchy feely methods which are blatantly not working.

First sex night is next weekend. We’re out to dinner with friends so we’ll have a few drinks, so with a bit of Dutch courage seems like the ideal time to start getting a bit more aggressive with her.


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

WilliamM said:


> My wife was diagnosed by psychiatrists as having masochistic personality disorder, in 1984. That was before it was removed as a diagnosis and personally disorder.
> 
> Currently the discussion is whether or not to include “self destructive personality disorder” in the newest upcoming DSM after 5. Which is another name for masochistic personality. It is still treated as a disorder if the person who has the syndrome feels it causes them stress.
> 
> ...




How does this manifest itself? Does she basically want to do harm to herself?


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

GreenOrb said:


> ...her comment about not being that bothered about sex in the next 6 months means I’m clearly boring the s*** out of her in bed.


Reading this made me sad.

Sex is about being so, very close - the intimacy of looking at/touching this one person in a way that you don't with anyone else in the whole world.

How could that possibly be boring?


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

minimalME said:


> Reading this made me sad.
> 
> Sex is about being so, very close - the intimacy of looking at/touching this one person in a way that you don't with anyone else in the whole world.
> 
> How could that possibly be boring?




Again, completely agree with you. But I don’t think my wife works that way. She’s never been into any kind of intimacy (hence why physical touch love language comes right at the bottom for her). Cuddling, etc, just seems to leave her cold. For a long time I thought she might not love me (she never says that either) but it seems it’s just the way she is made. So for better or worse I need to work with what I’ve got.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

GreenOrb said:


> Again, completely agree with you. But I don’t think my wife works that way. She’s never been into any kind of intimacy (hence why physical touch love language comes right at the bottom for her). Cuddling, etc, just seems to leave her cold. For a long time I thought she might not love me (she never says that either) but it seems it’s just the way she is made. So for better or worse I need to work with what I’ve got.


Yes - of course (working with what you've got).

I'm curious. Was she always this way?


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

minimalME said:


> Yes - of course (working with what you've got).
> 
> 
> 
> I'm curious. Was she always this way?




Ultimately the answer to this is yes. Right back at the start things were great; loads of sex, lots of cuddling and holding hands. Although I learned pretty quickly she was very body conscious and oral sex was completely out.

After 12-18 months the sex slowed to a crawl. It took a while for me to realise and then I’ve been trying to figure it out ever since. We’ve always got on great, have the same sense of humour and want the same things from life so that was more than enough to keep us together. I was also not man enough or confident enough to really do anything about it.

But I’m different now. My career is going well, I’m much more confident in myself and I know what I want from life. And I want a lot more sex!


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

GreenOrb said:


> I know what I want from life. And I want a lot more sex!


I hope everything works out super well for you!


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

GreenOrb said:


> How does this manifest itself? Does she basically want to do harm to herself?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




No

Masochism is poorly understood 

Especially by people who have not dealt with it 

The best description I have read is the need by someone to submerge their “self” into someone else, some “other”. The other then takes responsibility for that person.

My wife suffers guilt. But when she surrenders herself to me then I am the one responsible for her actions, and she is free from her guilt.

Masochism, or self destructive personality as some call it, has several major manifestations. Derives sexual or emotional pleasures from submission, being degraded, being restrained, being physically hurt, exhibitionism, acts of service, are the big ones. Most people only hear about the pain thing because it’s spectacular. But it’s just one small part.

And self harm is not part of it at all. The masochist needs someone else to inflict whatever is done. The insults, pain, control, whatever.

One thing that helps a lot is a good imagination. Role play.

And I have had a lot of counseling to make sure I keep my head straight with all this, because the abuse of the Dominant in these relationships is a real thing.

My wife and I both recognize that this is weird stuff, but she needs what she needs. Vanilla sex was boring to her. She was ready to just give up. She needed me to rock her world, but she had no idea how to tell me that.

Once I took firm control over my wife, and stopped expecting her to make decisions, she is happy. I try to make decisions that are good for both of us, and be a good Dominant. She does seem to appreciate my efforts.

My wife was always only responsive in sex. But it was bordering on boring in the first 5 years. But since I learned about her masochism and accepted I need to “feed” that issue things have been very different, interesting.

It’s not a porn life, and my wife was still only responsive, but her response became spectacular. We had sex nearly every day before but I suspected she was faking a lot, and it turned out I was right. After I started treating her “correctly” the difference in her response was amazing.

My wife is pretty extreme. We have worked for years to find ways to make sure she is sexually excited with the least amount of pain I can use on her by using other facets of masochism to keep her excited all the time. And help from her shrinks to work through her childhood issues.

In our case we used bondage and acts of service more than pain. My wife does things for me all the time. I praise her for her acts of service. This is 24/7. I do still have to hurt her a couple times a week, but the amount of pain needed to satisfy her is very low now. 

One thing is certain, if I don’t satisfy the needs in her driven by her masochism she will not be happy. Thankfully there are multiple avenues.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

GreenOrb said:


> We went out for dinner last night. My wife’s period had just started so she has now closed up shop for the next 4 days.
> 
> However we talked about us and sex. In a smallish nutshell:
> - I explained responsive vs spontaneous desire
> ...




At least twice a week is what you should aim for.

Also: if she doesn’t feel like sex it doesn’t mean it is because you are boring her. But taking the lead is still your best bet.

When she made that remark about not being bothered not having sex for 6 months, did you ask if she cared that you would be more than bothered?

Btw what birth control is she using?


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

minimalME said:


> I hope everything works out super well for you!




Thanks! It’s only since posting here I actually feel like I might be getting somewhere, and really appreciate all the people who have taken the time to give me advice.


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## Don't Panic (Apr 2, 2017)

GreenOrb said:


> However we talked about us and sex. In a smallish nutshell:
> - I explained responsive vs spontaneous desire
> - I said that her not ever being in the mood is no longer an excuse since she is responsive
> - I told her we need to put a sex night in the diary since it is the only way we will ever get around to it. I then took her iPhone off her and put it in her diary
> -* sex night is currently every 2 weeks.* Feeling like I maybe short changed myself now but told her I want to get more regular than that and this was the start


 
Some people are against the idea of scheduling sex because it lacks spontaneity, but I really liked it when our children were young (and I was exhausted, preoccupied, and LD). I was the one that came up with the schedule idea. Sometimes we would both take an afternoon off from work, kids at school, house to ourselves...heaven lol. The dates gave me something to anticipate and focus on, and got me thinking about sex again, making it a priority. The more we had it, the more I'd want it, with no pressure in between the "date". My husband's confident flirting, compliments, and teasing over the days leading up to the time was key. Keep that part of the equation in mind. 

Rooting for you GreenOrb! Hoping that you two work your way up to a weekly schedue soon


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## TheCuriousWife (Jan 28, 2013)

Rooting for you! You are doing great so far.


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

WilliamM said:


> My wife is pretty extreme. We have worked for years to find ways to make sure she is sexually excited with the least amount of pain I can use on her by using other facets of masochism to keep her excited all the time. And help from her shrinks to work through her childhood issues.
> 
> In our case we used bondage and acts of service more than pain. My wife does things for me all the time. I praise her for her acts of service. This is 24/7. I do still have to hurt her a couple times a week, but the amount of pain needed to satisfy her is very low now.
> 
> One thing is certain, if I don’t satisfy the needs in her driven by her masochism she will not be happy. Thankfully there are multiple avenues.



Did you find it easy to dominate her, or was it something that came naturally once you got into it?



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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> At least twice a week is what you should aim for.
> 
> Also: if she doesn’t feel like sex it doesn’t mean it is because you are boring her. But taking the lead is still your best bet.
> 
> ...




When she remarked about not having sex for 6 months she didn’t ask what I would think. But I also think she said it to show me her indifference towards sex rather than implying that it was ever going to happen. However I did then say if she wants to be happily married then she is going to need to have sex regularly, doesn’t matter if she divorces me and meets someone else, she will still have the same problem. I of course didn’t tell her that there are some LD men out there that would give her a quiet life. Best she just thinks all men are HD for now...

Feels like she is squirming a bit at the moment and trying to have sex as little as she can get away with whilst partly recognising it’s still important to our marriage. And to be honest I’ve let her get away with this for far too long so maybe she thinks I will relent in the end. Which I won’t.

She isn’t on birth control at the moment, but she is considering going back on the pill. She does suffer from quite heavy periods and has been seeing the doc recently about it. The pill would help bring them under control somewhat.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

GreenOrb said:


> Did you find it easy to dominate her, or was it something that came naturally once you got into it?
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




It was awkward at first. The first year in fact. I’ve always been very self assured, and dismissive of others, but the idea of being her Master, as she kept calling me, bugged me. 

I ignored it for the first 5 years, thinking it was a joke. Sometimes I told her she needed to think for herself more.

Then she let a friend seduce her, and immediately told me about it and threw herself on my mercy. I am sure she expected me to get angry enough to take the correct Dominant role in response to that.

Trouble was my wife is a pathological liar, and I discovered that at that time. I really went off the rails over being lied to for all the time I knew her. I got much more angry than she anticipated. 

Of course, at least it was something different for her. After 15 months of being unable to get any sense out of her I grabbed her and spanked her. It was meant to punish her. It was not pleasant. Her reaction to that showed me she was a masochist. 

I was shocked in a couple ways. One, that I lost control of myself. Which I’ve never done again. Two, that she could be suffering that issue and I did not realize it after being married to her for over 6 years.

But I did and do love her. I got books on the issue, psychology texts, and I decided I would take on the role she needed me to assume. 

Once it was out in the open, so to speak, it was fairly easy for me to figure out what my wife wanted. She would never say anything, but she would drop hints. Right after I told her she had to have a safe word she bought a T-shirt that said “No is not my safe word”. 

Once I saw how pleased she was after I Dominated her the first time it was actually very easy to continue. Although for many things it is important the Dominant have counseling, or at least I did, to deal with any feelings of abuse you have about what you do to your submissive.

Even though she may enjoy it a lot, some things can make you feel bad about yourself. I worked on understanding I am just an actor in a play. That’s important to remember.


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## SentHereForAReason (Oct 25, 2017)

Late to this thread but after reading the 5LL book I'm under the assumption that most people have different primary love languages ... That's not the important part. The most important part was actually realizing what they are for your partner and you and cultivating them.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

All dominance rests on the same foundation. The absence of fear. 

If you want to be dominant than say what’s true - without fear - and what’s true is that you never really figured the physical part of your relationship out. That’s a you thing, a her thing and a couple thing. 

The total confidence play is to state that you WILL figure this out. That may however not be true. Meaning you may not feel that confident. Which is fine. Don’t try and simulate confidence - won’t work. Wives have emotional telepathy. 

Which means you run the other play which is - we will figure this out or we will accept that we simply aren’t compatible and we will be co parents and hopefully friends. 

All that said - your real issue most likely will be a ‘won’t’ not a ‘cant’. 




GreenOrb said:


> Ultimately the answer to this is yes. Right back at the start things were great; loads of sex, lots of cuddling and holding hands. Although I learned pretty quickly she was very body conscious and oral sex was completely out.
> 
> After 12-18 months the sex slowed to a crawl. It took a while for me to realise and then I’ve been trying to figure it out ever since. We’ve always got on great, have the same sense of humour and want the same things from life so that was more than enough to keep us together. I was also not man enough or confident enough to really do anything about it.
> 
> ...


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

Don't Panic said:


> Some people are against the idea of scheduling sex because it lacks spontaneity, but I really liked it when our children were young (and I was exhausted, preoccupied, and LD). I was the one that came up with the schedule idea. Sometimes we would both take an afternoon off from work, kids at school, house to ourselves...heaven lol. The dates gave me something to anticipate and focus on, and got me thinking about sex again, making it a priority. The more we had it, the more I'd want it, with no pressure in between the "date". My husband's confident flirting, compliments, and teasing over the days leading up to the time was key. Keep that part of the equation in mind.
> 
> 
> 
> Rooting for you GreenOrb! Hoping that you two work your way up to a weekly schedue soon




Thanks Don’t Panic. Was there anything specific he did in the days leading up to your “dates”? Or just general flirting, etc?


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

MEM2020 said:


> All dominance rests on the same foundation. The absence of fear.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I think it get the first part, ie, don’t fake it because she’ll see straight through it.

By running the other play do you mean telling her that of we can’t figure it out then we just have to accept incompatibility?

Something else has also occurred to me (I like to think about this stuff a lot). Are all those supposedly LD wives out there who aren’t satisfying their men (I know it can be the other way around, but less likely) actually just women with responsive desire and their men just aren’t properly tapping into this? Or there actually plenty of women who are just not that bothered about sex?


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

There is no all for anything. Everyone is an individual, and every relationship is it’s own mine field.

This Dominance/submission thing is estimated to be at play in fewer than 5 percent of relationships. 

However, women loose respect for men who don’t display self confidence at some quite larger percentage, so there is probably a lot of muddy waters.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

It’s a combination. 

Let me try and break it down for you. Half of all men are below average in bed. That is just math. And yet - most of the men in sexless marriages assert their wives love sex - when they have it and always come. So ummm - based on their self assessment they are certainly not in the below average group and yet their wives actively avoid sex with them. 

Leading me to conclude that the average man protects his ego at least as fiercely as he protects his balls in physical combat. 

This ego protective shield is extraordinarily unhelpful if one is trying to have a good/great sex life. 

The few women who are LD - who come here - usually get subjected to a lot of hostility. They don’t stay long. 

But from my analysis - the majority of them are solid citizens who married a guy who is highly resistant to feedback related to sex. 

Some LD’s are truly selfish, but they are the minority.

Thing is - you have created this broken dynamic by tolerating it for 15 plus years. You can’t fix it without her cooperation, and so far she is fighting you pretty hard in her own quiet way. 

At some point you are gonna have to cause her some discomfort. Best way to do that is to say: If this doesn’t work out it won’t be because I don’t love you, it will be because I’ve concluded you don’t really love me, you just love love what I DO for you. And that just isn’t enough. 

But you are at least half the issue here. You simply don’t have enough edge. Summon up some edge and you’ll get some heat from her. Because politely asking to have sex - same way you’d ask her to pass the salt at dinner - is not working for her. 

Wrestling is a start. If you can’t do that, well .... that is worrisome. When we wrestle M2 gets to do anything except throat or eye strikes. Me - I don’t strike I just wrestle. So it’s MMA rules for her, and high school wrestling rules for me. Compensates for our size difference. Oh yeah she gets to scratch and bite also. But if she gets pinned I spank her. 

You are trying to talk your way out of the jam you are in. That won’t work. 




GreenOrb said:


> I think it get the first part, ie, don’t fake it because she’ll see straight through it.
> 
> By running the other play do you mean telling her that of we can’t figure it out then we just have to accept incompatibility?
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Ah yes - playing dead in the hope that your partner will give up. 

Try this next time in a light tone: The punishment for indifference is a spanking. Hopefully she will fight you to prevent that - watch how that plays out. 





GreenOrb said:


> Fair point.
> 
> So I've been fairly vocal in my desire for sex in the last week, and we had sex a couple of nights back. That's a break of 11 days between sex which is the first time we've done it twice in a month since the kids were born, so something like 7 years. However there's good and bad to this. The good is my wife has said she recognises the efforts I've been making and agrees that it would be good for our relationship to have sex more than once a month, hence the sex.
> 
> ...


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> Wrestling is a start. If you can’t do that, well .... that is worrisome. When we wrestle M2 gets to do anything except throat or eye strikes. Me - I don’t strike I just wrestle. So it’s MMA rules for her, and high school wrestling rules for me. Compensates for our size difference. Oh yeah she gets to scratch and bite also. But if she gets pinned I spank her.


OMG...I've never ever come close to wrestling with a man. That sounds like sooo much fun! :surprise:


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> It’s a combination.
> 
> 
> 
> Let me try and break it down for you. Half of all men are below average in bed. That is just math.



Just curious where this statement comes from. What does ‘being good in bed’ mean, what is it judged on?
If the wife finds the sex amazing, does it make the man good in bed? What if the same man has ‘unremarkable’ sex with the another woman because she finds it boring (due to being LD and unattracted)?
Just trying to understand it because I can’t quite make sense of it.
That is certainly true about everyone thinking they are above average drivers...But it’s because one is measured against all the other drivers. Whereas with sex, a man is just measured against his partner or any partner he has sex with. In a way, it’s just as effective for a marriage to find a partner who enjoys sex with you, than become a ‘better than average’ lover...




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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

WilliamM said:


> No
> 
> Masochism is poorly understood
> 
> ...



I think one has to make a distinction between being a masochist/submissive in bed and between having a self destructive personality in real life. One can be opposite of those things in bed and RL. Actually one is more likely to be for example a masochist in bed and wanting control in real life. 

Like I wrote earlier, for some, sex is escapism and if a boss for example is fed up bossing everyone around in the office, it may be normal for her to want to be spanked in bed...

Is she the same in bed and in everyday life?




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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

maybe @Akinaura should chime in and explain things from the other side of the coin...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

GreenOrb said:


> Something else has also occurred to me (I like to think about this stuff a lot). Are all those supposedly LD wives out there who aren’t satisfying their men (I know it can be the other way around, but less likely) actually just women with responsive desire and their men just aren’t properly tapping into this? Or there actually plenty of women who are just not that bothered about sex?


The second. There's entire industries built around the issue, but the lack of concrete results applicable to a good range of people makes me think it's not an inherent issue but a manufactured one.

Meaning, it's a lot more intentional than it is not. Sex is a lot about trust and control and so on, and lack of desire can't always be overcome by external factors. 

There is an element of responsive desire but to attribute everything to that is not necessarily accurate. Especially in long term relationships. 

I look at it like cycling. I don't always like to go out and cycle for 20+ miles but after a few miles it feels great. One can argue sex is like that but I'm not quite convinced.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

WilliamM said:


> My wife has masochistic personality syndrome. Verified by all the psychiatrists she has seen. She saw 4 different ones because of her mental illnesses, the other one being pathological lying, or pseudologia phantastica.




I had no idea there is such a thing as a ‘masochistic personality syndrome’ and also that they give Latin names for lying...
I guess it depends to what degree these things manifest themselves.

My wife likes a bit of submissiveness in bed, but I never considered this an illness or a syndrome.


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

MEM2020 said:


> It’s a combination.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think what you’re trying to politely say here is that I’m not very good in bed. And it’s suddenly occurred to me that you are probably right.

I’d always judged myself on the fact the sex in my previous relationship was great (but that was only for 18 months), and that my wife tends to mostly have an orgasm (although this has been not so frequent recently). Also in my head, I have always blamed her for the lack of excitement in the bedroom: she refused oral right at the start, then accused me of being too acrobatic when I tried a few different things a year or two in. So since then it’s been plain vanilla.

But that’s clearly a lame excuse on my part. I have never been dominant with her, and that is the one thing she has mentioned she would like. Up until now I’ve had no idea how to do it. I did read up on rough sex a while back but never had the balls to try it. Clearly now is the time.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

WilliamM said:


> It was awkward at first. The first year in fact. I’ve always been very self assured, and dismissive of others, but the idea of being her Master, as she kept calling me, bugged me.
> 
> I ignored it for the first 5 years, thinking it was a joke. Sometimes I told her she needed to think for herself more.
> 
> ...



What did she lie to you about? Just curious.

I also discovered these tendencies by chance but then I noticed that the majority of women have these tendencies from reading. Some more than others. Whether it’s playful wrestling or role play: it seems an accepted truism that the majority of women prefer a man who leads in bed, not a submissive man. 
And men like it when women get ‘feisty’ because they feel challenged to ‘tame’ them and regain ‘control’. It all seems pretty ‘normal’ behaviour to me (the push and pull between two partners).
I would never have thought that these are ‘syndromes’; I mean those things are constantly observed in the animal world. I don’t think anyone calls animals sick because of this...Perhaps it’s easier to come to terms with it for yourself (having a name for it) so that, as you say, you don’t feel like a ‘bad’ person. I guess your case is perhaps a bit more extreme on the spectrum.





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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

GreenOrb said:


> When she remarked about not having sex for 6 months she didn’t ask what I would think. But I also think she said it to show me her indifference towards sex rather than implying that it was ever going to happen. However I did then say if she wants to be happily married then she is going to need to have sex regularly, doesn’t matter if she divorces me and meets someone else, she will still have the same problem. I of course didn’t tell her that there are some LD men out there that would give her a quiet life. Best she just thinks all men are HD for now...
> 
> Feels like she is squirming a bit at the moment and trying to have sex as little as she can get away with whilst partly recognising it’s still important to our marriage. And to be honest I’ve let her get away with this for far too long so maybe she thinks I will relent in the end. Which I won’t.
> 
> ...




Since I have just been through in his (birth control research) I would recommend an IUD. I think my wife is going for Kyleena because there is hardly any systemic absorption yet enough to lessen symptoms of the period. Mirena can stop it completely. 
Problem with the pill is that you get a lot of hormones systemically and they do interfere with the sex drive often (likely to make her even less horny) and there can be more side effects and slight increase in breast cancer risk. She might also forget to take it whereas with an IUD, she will have it put in and can forget about it for 5 years.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

GreenOrb said:


> I think it get the first part, ie, don’t fake it because she’ll see straight through it.
> 
> By running the other play do you mean telling her that of we can’t figure it out then we just have to accept incompatibility?
> 
> ...




There are many different reasons why people don’t have sex....Because people and circumstances are bloody complicated. The LD label is only helpful to an extent (I actually find it unhelpful). There can be many reasons someone might appear to be ‘LD’.
A wife can also find their husband unattractive, it might be hormones, it might be stress, it might be a million things. 

Your wife could be for example just not that attracted to you and no matter what you try, it may not work. In those circumstances people often tend to advise that perhaps she might be into someone else in the picture. (I would always try to remember that this is a realistic possibility at any time, because we are all humans).

Some of the things you mentioned (that sex used to be good and frequent and judging by your interactions with each other and what she said to you regarding wanting a more self assured type guy makes me thing that the odds might be good if you try this more).

I am less enthusiastic about her comment that she wouldn’t be that bothered if sex didn’t happen for 6 months because it seems like an insensitive thing to say if she knows what a massive issue it is for you (unless she doesn’t know). It shows she is perhaps not that self aware or does not really care as much. Again, it’s difficult to judge from afar and pinpoint what the problem might be.

From your description, it all sounded exactly like my marriage some years ago but we shouldn’t forget every couple is different.

Also remember that it’s not all down to you: you can only do so much on your part. And of course you should try and do as much as you can but if it completely doesn’t work, you need to consider more drastic measures perhaps. There were times where I was seriously considered and was ready to leave over this. And said so quite clearly.


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

MEM2020 said:


> Wrestling is a start. If you can’t do that, well .... that is worrisome. When we wrestle M2 gets to do anything except throat or eye strikes. Me - I don’t strike I just wrestle. So it’s MMA rules for her, and high school wrestling rules for me. Compensates for our size difference. Oh yeah she gets to scratch and bite also. But if she gets pinned I spank her.
> 
> You are trying to talk your way out of the jam you are in. That won’t work.


I've been thinking more on our day to day interactions. Every now and again things do get physical between us. For example, we both like making jokes at each other's expense. Sometimes if my wife can't think of a comeback to one of my jokes she will just jokingly hit me instead. I'll then lightly hit her or push her back, then things will keep going until I can't go any further or I'd hurt her. It doesn't happen all that often, but I could probably instigate this more if I was more aware of it.

A couple of weeks ago after one such occasion, and I had chased my wife up the stairs, she said to me that it didn't mean I could expect any sex later on. I don't think I followed up with any comment. Feels like I might be missing some obvious signs here? Should I have pinned her against the wall and said something like, "yes we ****ing well are having sex later"?


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> Since I have just been through in his (birth control research) I would recommend an IUD. I think my wife is going for Kyleena because there is hardly any systemic absorption yet enough to lessen symptoms of the period. Mirena can stop it completely.
> Problem with the pill is that you get a lot of hormones systemically and they do interfere with the sex drive often (likely to make her even less horny) and there can be more side effects and slight increase in breast cancer risk. She might also forget to take it whereas with an IUD, she will have it put in and can forget about it for 5 years.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


We did discuss a coil recently. She's against the idea. She doesn't like the idea of having something permanently in her, and has a friend who had one in but it didn't agree with her and had it removed.

I'll do some research now. Probably worth steering her down this route since as you say the pill = zero sex drive.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

GreenOrb said:


> Should I have pinned her against the wall and said something like, "yes we ****ing well are having sex later"?


Heaven.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Being dominant and being rough are two different things. 

They can overlap but don’t have to. 





GreenOrb said:


> I think what you’re trying to politely say here is that I’m not very good in bed. And it’s suddenly occurred to me that you are probably right.
> 
> I’d always judged myself on the fact the sex in my previous relationship was great (but that was only for 18 months), and that my wife tends to mostly have an orgasm (although this has been not so frequent recently). Also in my head, I have always blamed her for the lack of excitement in the bedroom: she refused oral right at the start, then accused me of being too acrobatic when I tried a few different things a year or two in. So since then it’s been plain vanilla.
> 
> ...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

GreenOrb said:


> We did discuss a coil recently. She's against the idea. She doesn't like the idea of having something permanently in her, and has a friend who had one in but it didn't agree with her and had it removed.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll do some research now. Probably worth steering her down this route since as you say the pill = zero sex drive.




It’s not permanent though. It’s the whole point. You can take it out any time and it’s a very simple procedure.
There are many different coils, some don’t have any hormones (copper) and some have tiny amounts which shouldn’t cause any side effects. But yeah, do some research! It’s important to get it right.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

When I wrestle, or fight, with my wife there’s one rule. I must win, and force her to submit. She controls how much force I have to apply to achieve that. She gets bruised often. I get bruised sometimes.

Her psychiatrist said, after looking over some of her bruises, they were minor and I didn’t need to worry until they started turning purple or I drew blood or broke a bone. 

I sprained her wrist pretty badly once and was too gentle after that. My wife created a role play as a southern athlete begging her coach to be allowed to play, and not pulled from the game over a “little ole injury”. She ended up masturbating to some explosive orgasms while cajoling me about putting her on the injured reserve list. She ended it by telling me she could play fine even with the injury.

She is submissive, my sex slave in theory, but she sure has a way of getting her way.

Something she has said several times over the years is she had to teach me how to fight with her. I never get mad at her, or yell at her. But I have to fight with her and physically dominate her a couple times a week at least. Used to be every day.

And for those asking, my wife is submissive to me 24/7. We used to go to some family events back in the 80s. Some of the wives took my wife aside and asked her to stop acting so slavishly towards me because the other husbands were saying things. My wife doubled down, getting me things I didn’t want just to wait on me more, and sitting at my feet instead of beside me for the few seconds she wasn’t on the go.

We have not been invited to another of those family events.

The few years she worked she wasn’t like that at work because she wasn’t working with me. There’s no way her submissive attitude is applied towards anyone but me. She is a fierce tiger towards other people. She is not submissive to anyone else. She is not weak or timid.

Ever since they removed masochistic personality disorder, and called it a syndrome instead, in DSM-III-R in 1987 there’s been a debate about reintroducing it as self destructive personality disorder. Typically workplace therapists don’t want to mention the word masochism. It has too much of a sexual connotation.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

GreenOrb said:


> I've been thinking more on our day to day interactions. Every now and again things do get physical between us. For example, we both like making jokes at each other's expense. Sometimes if my wife can't think of a comeback to one of my jokes she will just jokingly hit me instead. I'll then lightly hit her or push her back, then things will keep going until I can't go any further or I'd hurt her. It doesn't happen all that often, but I could probably instigate this more if I was more aware of it.
> 
> 
> 
> A couple of weeks ago after one such occasion, and I had chased my wife up the stairs, she said to me that it didn't mean I could expect any sex later on. I don't think I followed up with any comment. Feels like I might be missing some obvious signs here? Should I have pinned her against the wall and said something like, "yes we ****ing well are having sex later"?



Yes, probably missed a sign. You should have pinned her down and said that thats ok, because you are about to **** her right now, instead of later.

But it’s easy to say this things from the outside. I know it can be hard on the inside.
(Haha, i said ‘hard’).


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

WilliamM said:


> The few years she worked she wasn’t like that at work because she wasn’t working with me. There’s no way her submissive attitude is applied towards anyone but me. *She is a fierce tiger towards other people.* She is not submissive to anyone else. She is not weak or timid.


I'd love to have a very, very strong man in my life. 

I've been told by women that I'm intimidating. I've been told by both sexes that I'm too intense. My dad told me recently that I'm too strong and independent. If I feel backed in a corner, I can be quite fierce.

Since my divorce, there've been two men who've elicited a submissive response in me. It felt innate and not forced at all, and I felt most like a woman when around them. I prefer this, but it's sooo rare. It's hard for me to find men who hold my respect. I think a dominant man would help a lot.

Also, there's a much younger guy I work with. I know that he struggles mentally, but I don't know exactly how. Some days he's very angry and broody, and I've thought that perhaps he's schizophrenic. Our interaction isn't in any way romantic or sexual, but I'm naturally submissive around him, and he behaves beautifully around me. Last winter his reactions were a surprise, but now we're able to get things done without a word. On the days he's doing well, he goes over and beyond for me, but during his dark days, I'll simply take over certain tasks. It's somewhat odd, but it works.


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## Don't Panic (Apr 2, 2017)

GreenOrb said:


> Thanks Don’t Panic. Was there anything specific he did in the days leading up to your “dates”? Or just general flirting, etc?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





GreenOrb said:


> I've been thinking more on our day to day interactions. Every now and again things do get physical between us. For example, we both like making jokes at each other's expense. Sometimes if my wife can't think of a comeback to one of my jokes she will just jokingly hit me instead. I'll then lightly hit her or push her back, then things will keep going until I can't go any further or I'd hurt her. It doesn't happen all that often, but I could probably instigate this more if I was more aware of it.
> 
> A couple of weeks ago after one such occasion, and I had chased my wife up the stairs, she said to me that it didn't mean I could expect any sex later on. I don't think I followed up with any comment. Feels like I might be missing some obvious signs here? Should I have pinned her against the wall and said something like, *"yes we ****ing well are having sex later"*?


 * Bingo. That would work for me! I enjoy verbal sexual chemistry, and lots of it. It's an art form. Let the anticipation build from there. *

To answer your question @GreenOrb it's more than general flirting. During the day or two before one of our scheduled afternooners, anticipation is key. Sexy compliments, comments of a graphic nature re how I was driving him crazy...all designed to keep the flame burning. Sexual touching, make-out sessions, knowing this would not lead to anything because we were both _intentionally_ letting that tension build. Yes, this kills the spontaneity, but the end result was so incredibly worth it for _us_. I'd have a few days to plan...lingerie, drinks, snacks. I'd get home early and take a bath. I felt like a sex a goddess. That is what you want your wife to feel, eventually with that undercurrent running just below the surface _at all times_. That's a job for both of you. She is responsible for her libido as well, but what you do will greatly influence this undercurrent. 

It does seem she is giving you signals that she is submissive, or would like to be, in the bedroom. The level of her submissiveness has yet to be determined. Go slowly but confidently in determining her nature. Something I enjoy- try_ telling _her what to wear...heels? and make her leave them on. It's a safe, low-level dominance move to start. I'm moderately submissive in the bedroom. In my real life errrr, not so much lol. Giving away the control and authority (dominance) required of me in my every day life is very important to my sexual satisfaction. Your wife probably will not tell you what she wants, that is a big part of being submissive. Let me know if you'd like more beginner ideas from a female perspective.

Because you are in the early stages of changing your dynamic, the key really is playfulness. It's fun, sexual tension. She probably will resist at times. Mentally prepare some humorous responses with a little edge so you are ready to respond. Initially, don't take it personally when she resists. Without talking too much, let her know exactly as MEM2020 (golden advice) suggested-
this is a marriage, not merely a friendship. The dynamic must be corrected, and you'll do it together.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

WilliamM said:


> When I wrestle, or fight, with my wife there’s one rule. I must win, and force her to submit. She controls how much force I have to apply to achieve that. She gets bruised often. I get bruised sometimes.
> 
> Her psychiatrist said, after looking over some of her bruises, they were minor and I didn’t need to worry until they started turning purple or I drew blood or broke a bone.
> 
> ...



Ok this does sound like a more extreme version of what I normally would expect if she’s like this 24/7...I can imagine it must have been strange for you to navigate trough this. Though to be honest, I think deep down we are all insane.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

My wife does not like words much.

When I pin her against a wall she expects me to follow through with actions. Not words.

Like, right then. Right there, or pick her up and carry her off.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

I suspect her shrinks agree we are all insane.

One of the things I noticed with all the psychiatrists and psychologists we saw is they seemed to think we were fairly normal. Except for her pathological lying and masochism. But still, not all that weird.

According to recent studies the incidence of masochism seems to be increasing, especially in western societies. Perhaps the theory it is a mechanism of escape from social pressures which overwhelmed people has merit. 

Masochism has the taint of being associated with only the pain component, too. That’s why there’s an effort to establish the name self defeating syndrome, and an effort to get that established as a personality disorder in the next DSM. The psychological issues related to it go so far beyond those most people think of when they hear the word masochism it needs new terminology.

Especially since a lot of people in kink issues want masochism, as in BDSM, to be left to them. 

So if a new term is used for it then treatment for it can be recommended without dealing with the BDSM side of the issues. My wife was in therapy for 8 years. She was trying to figure out why she suffered panic attacks when she thought about sex. But we did work on reducing her masochistic tendencies. We constantly work towards reducing her feelings of needing to be hurt in order to feel loved.

Her therapy was very successful. She has changed a lot. Two things probably won’t ever really change, or change any more. She is a pathological liar. She is a masochist. The masochism has been hugely mitigated. Her need for pain has been reduced greatly over the years. Some things are not going to change. Like her need to be submissive to my Dominant.


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## Don't Panic (Apr 2, 2017)

GreenOrb said:


> Should I have pinned her against the wall?


Yes absolutely. 
This is also an incredibly hot beginner move. In my opinion one of _the_ best. Cliche? Maybe, but it's also highly effective for a reason. Try it in those playful moments you described.


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

Having a bad evening.

While my wife was at work yesterday and I was at home looking after the kids, I spent most of the day texting her and sending her pictures of how our cats are getting on after we have just started letting them out of the house. Something I thought she would appreciate being into acts of service.

I then got home early tonight to bath the kids and put them to bed. A job I know she finds a bit tedious sometimes (our kids are generally lovely but they can be wind up merchants at bed time).

When I got in I gently reminded her about our first sex night this Saturday. We’re also out to dinner with friends so she then got annoyed and said she just wanted to enjoy the evening and couldn’t I just leave her alone this weekend. I as calmly as I could said she could move sex night to Friday or Sunday but it’s staying in the diary. But it wasn’t a fun exchange.

And now I’m thinking, despite all the things I’ve been doing, I’ve had one lousy sex session and still not one shred of physical affection from her. No kisses or cuddles unless I’ve gone after them. She doesn’t seem capable of even thinking for 10 seconds a day that I might want some kind of physical interaction.

So I’m currently steaming and left the room to take it out in some weights. Don’t think blowing up at her is the right move.

It sounds petty, but I guess she won’t be getting her cup of tea in the morning.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

GreenOrb said:


> Having a bad evening.
> 
> While my wife was at work yesterday and I was at home looking after the kids, I spent most of the day texting her and sending her pictures of how our cats are getting on after we have just started letting them out of the house. Something I thought she would appreciate being into acts of service.
> 
> ...


think about how much effort you put into speaking her love languages. then think about how much effort she puts into peaking yours. 

balance the two sides. just remember, you can only control you.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

What is this ‘acts of service’ stuff BS. Is it from some book? 
I don’t understand the logic: why should doing normal chores that married couples do anyway, have anything to do with an expectation of getting sex? I don’t see the connection.

I think you have to stop doing ‘acts of service’ and just do ‘regular acts’. (How do you even know this ‘covert contract’ is even understood by her in the same way?)
And you should address the sex issue independently.

Sounds like you are going to get pity sex this Saturday, if at all. Don’t accept it, if her heart is not in it.

Maybe you need to approach it differently after all and give her the ‘no more bull****’ speech. Ask her to explain why she is not interested in it anymore and whether she realises what it’s doing to the marriage. 

I think you might need to be prepared to leave her. You are basically going to be miserable for the rest of your life if she is going to continue torturing you. You do understand that she is ‘training’ you, not the other way around with these stupid ‘acts of service’.

I would also not keep reminding her beforehand about the night, this can come across as a bit needy; it’s not like she has a bad memory and doesn’t remember: if she doesn’t do it on the night for no good reason or isn’t into it after all the talks you have had, I would be out that same night.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

WilliamM said:


> I suspect her shrinks agree we are all insane.
> 
> One of the things I noticed with all the psychiatrists and psychologists we saw is they seemed to think we were fairly normal. Except for her pathological lying and masochism. But still, not all that weird.
> 
> ...



She is probably lying in order to get punished. Like a child, she knows lying is ‘wrong’ and can get her into trouble with her ‘master’. So masochism and lying probably go together.
The ‘bruising’ stuff sounds extreme; it must be tough for you to have to do this for her, if it’s not something you enjoy or are used to. You may benefit from counselling/therapy yourself.

None of the stuff we do in the bedroom usually spills out into the real world. The whole ‘being in charge stuff’ stays a fantasy. 
Also I think it’s comparatively mild; all she wants I think is just for me to force myself onto her occasionally, tell her what I’m going to do (or about to do) and do it or make her do it. (And also be turned on by it). I don’t think she would like getting hurt or be in pain; this would be a different game and I’m not sure I would be able to go along with it.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The physical sparring she does with you when you banter and she ratchets it up - is her cueing you to be physically aggressive. Physically dominant. This is a cue that to date you have ignored. 

Pick her up - carry her to bedroom and toss her on the bed. And then wrestle spank her into submission.

Trying to use acts of service and Outlook’s calendar feature as a substitute for being dominant - not gonna work. 

She’s fighting you because you are being so tentative/cautious. 



GreenOrb said:


> Having a bad evening.
> 
> While my wife was at work yesterday and I was at home looking after the kids, I spent most of the day texting her and sending her pictures of how our cats are getting on after we have just started letting them out of the house. Something I thought she would appreciate being into acts of service.
> 
> ...


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## Akinaura (Dec 6, 2011)

As'laDain said:


> maybe @Akinaura should chime in and explain things from the other side of the coin...


Ah geez...I can try...

It's not really "escaping to another self"...its more like shedding the false facade that we have to wear each and every day for the world...for everyone in our lives to see. And that in of itself is both mentally and emotionally draining. We try our best to keep up the facade, to please everyone, but will often lose track and just not get it right. Then toxic shame and guilt get added on to that false facade, and it's just uncomfortable to wear. But we wear it every day because we are terrified that if people actually saw us for what we wanted to be seen as.. they would would run away. And some of those people that would run away are the ones we care the deepest about and would hurt us the most.

By utilizing alt styles like BDSM within the bedroom, and in some relationships, 24/7, it allows the spouse to take off that facade, be true to themselves, and in turn be happier. When they are happier, they naturally want to do spread that happiness more, and the whole relationship gets better. As far as spankings and other physical aspects, that speaks to toxic shame and guilt and pretty soon that becomes less and less needed as the shame and guilt are dealt with...but that is dealt with during aftercare...after the pain has placed the person in a mental state where they are receptive to talk about it without emotions attached.


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

Lesson learned. Don't lift weights after several beers and half a bottle of wine. Was nearly sick in the kitty's litter tray.



inmyprime said:


> What is this ‘acts of service’ stuff BS. Is it from some book?
> I don’t understand the logic: why should doing normal chores that married couples do anyway, have anything to do with an expectation of getting sex? I don’t see the connection.
> 
> I think you have to stop doing ‘acts of service’ and just do ‘regular acts’. (How do you even know this ‘covert contract’ is even understood by her in the same way?)
> ...





MEM2020 said:


> The physical sparring she does with you when you banter and she ratchets it up - is her cueing you to be physically aggressive. Physically dominant. This is a cue that to date you have ignored.
> 
> Pick her up - carry her to bedroom and toss her on the bed. And then wrestle spank her into submission.
> 
> ...


You're both right of course.

Had a fairly heated discussion this morning which went something like:
- I'm being a good H, why don't you want to come near me or sleep with me
- she said she felt backed into a corner, that I'm the one who has changed, and that she hasn't, and maybe now I need something different in my life
- I asked what she meant by that, does she just want rid of me. She said it was the other way round, she felt like I had had enough of her
I was calm by the end of it, but she seemed to get a bit emotional after this last comment. If I read it right it did appear she was genuinely worried that I wanted out. As I left for work she still looked upset, so I pulled her towards me by her wrists and told her to give me a kiss, which she did quite willingly.

Feels like I need to stop whining now, take all your advice and give this domination thing a go. Clearly it makes me nervous, but right now I don't have much to lose. It's not like I could be giving up rampant sex life if it all goes wrong! Roll on the weekend.


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## Akinaura (Dec 6, 2011)

Okay, I'm going to double post, but I've done some further reading and I've talked to As'ladain

Look. Dude...if you want something to change, get up and make it happen. Stop pandering around and actually do it.

Here's a snippet from my relationship from @As'laDain : Back a couple of years ago, As'ladain and I were just starting out in our marriage. He would coddle me, and I would sit on my "royal" butt. He would do EVERYTHING in the house, and I would do nothing. He would put all the intimacy into the marriage, and I gave nothing. When As'ladain came home from work, and saw that the house had not been cleaned he would start cleaning it. Well, then that would cause me to starting yelling and screaming about how he was making me feel horrible. Well that was the final straw after that 20th or so time of me yelling. As'ladain pulled out all the stops and just stopped giving ANY attention to the relationship. He put in as much effort to the relationship as I was. And he TOLD ME CLEARLY that was what he was doing. If I wanted a hug, I had to help out with the house. It became nearly a tit for tat issue, but it worked. If I wanted intimacy from him, I had to GIVE intimacy to him. After a while the tit for tat strategy became a thing of memory, but the habit of it didn't. It's how we correct issues to this day. It's how we keep each other accountable to each other...and we will hit our 10 year anniversary in 4 months.


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

Akinaura said:


> Okay, I'm going to double post, but I've done some further reading and I've talked to As'ladain
> 
> Look. Dude...if you want something to change, get up and make it happen. Stop pandering around and actually do it.
> 
> Here's a snippet from my relationship from @As'laDain : Back a couple of years ago, As'ladain and I were just starting out in our marriage. He would coddle me, and I would sit on my "royal" butt. He would do EVERYTHING in the house, and I would do nothing. He would put all the intimacy into the marriage, and I gave nothing. When As'ladain came home from work, and saw that the house had not been cleaned he would start cleaning it. Well, then that would cause me to starting yelling and screaming about how he was making me feel horrible. Well that was the final straw after that 20th or so time of me yelling. As'ladain pulled out all the stops and just stopped giving ANY attention to the relationship. He put in as much effort to the relationship as I was. And he TOLD ME CLEARLY that was what he was doing. If I wanted a hug, I had to help out with the house. It became nearly a tit for tat issue, but it worked. If I wanted intimacy from him, I had to GIVE intimacy to him. After a while the tit for tat strategy became a thing of memory, but the habit of it didn't. It's how we correct issues to this day. It's how we keep each other accountable to each other...and we will hit our 10 year anniversary in 4 months.


The way I see it I have two options, one is a carrot, one is a stick:

1) Carrot = dominance: people have observed on here that my wife might be susceptible to me being dominant over her in bed. If she is and I am able to pull it off then problem solved.

2) Stick = tit for tat: I can see how this worked in your case. You wanted the physical intimacy which can be a strong driver for someone, so you did some things round the house to get it. However my relationship is the other way round. My wife is not a physical person, so if I stop doing things for her, then my fear is that it will just turn into a war of attrition. What little affection I get now will reduce to zero, rather than my wife making efforts in the physical department to try to get me doing more. I of course have nothing to base this on and perfectly willing to accept I could be wrong if anyone has evidence to the contrary.

You are completely right that I now need to take action. I've done plenty of talking with my wife and it has so far got me nowhere. Right now I am going to go with option 1, but if that doesn't work I will probably have to give option 2 a try anyway, since I'm not sure what else I can do.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

GreenOrb said:


> The way I see it I have two options, one is a carrot, one is a stick:
> 
> 1) Carrot = dominance: people have observed on here that my wife might be susceptible to me being dominant over her in bed. If she is and I am able to pull it off then problem solved.
> 
> ...


why dont you just try NOT doing ANYTHING extra for her for three days. just half a week. dont do ANY of the things that she says make her feel loved. do not serve her. do not make her life easier. if she gets irritated with you for it, then tell her that you are showing her the same attitude she is showing you, and that it will continue for three days. AFTER the three days are up, tell her that you will re-engage and will be willing to speak her love languages, given that she shows herself willing to speak yours. 

look, so far, you have absolutely failed at applying a tit for tat strategy. you gave the warning, but did NOT follow through. that made your position weaker than you seem to understand. if you aren't willing to follow through IMMEDIATELY, then dont even open your mouth. use your words to explain your ACTIONS. so far, your words have not been explaining your actions. you have mostly just been talking. it makes you look incredibly pathetic and weak when you say you are going to do something and then you don't do it. there is a word for it... whining. 

stop doing that. 

that's really what this is all about. if your actions don't line up with your words, then why the hell should your wife listen to them? she is hearing you loud and clear. but she is listening to your actions because your words are empty to her.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

GreenOrb said:


> The way I see it I have two options, one is a carrot, one is a stick:
> 
> 1) Carrot = dominance: people have observed on here that my wife might be susceptible to me being dominant over her in bed. If she is and I am able to pull it off then problem solved.
> 
> ...


I think it totally depends on your wife as to which tactic you take.

Dominance would work very well with me. Tit for tat, I'd completely shut down - I'd find it disrespectful and offensive. And it would put me in the initiator position, which would affect my level of respect and attraction (ie more shutting down).


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

GreenOrb said:


> Lesson learned. Don't lift weights after several beers and half a bottle of wine. Was nearly sick in the kitty's litter tray.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well she turned it around on you with the comment that maybe it’s you who needs something different. I hate it when they do it; instead of just saying straight that they either don’t feel it’s worth changing or that they will try changing. Instead they say it’s you...

That’s not true though. You always wanted the same thing, which is more sex.

Both of you have to do your parts for this to work; don’t pressure her emotionally (by asking if she’s going to hold her promise: you just make sure she does, when the time comes. Otherwise it’s akin to always asking ‘are we there yet?’ During a car journey.)
But she also has to take your feelings about it seriously.
I’m not sure she does (from her responses).


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

minimalME said:


> I think it totally depends on your wife as to which tactic you take.
> 
> 
> 
> Dominance would work very well with me. Tit for tat, I'd completely shut down - I'd find it disrespectful and offensive. And it would put me in the initiator position, which would affect my level of respect and attraction (ie more shutting down).



I agree I completely don’t get the whole tit for tat thing or what it’s supposed to be about. ‘I make you tea and you have to **** me’. It’s just demeaning, but in the completely wrong kind of sense that I don’t see any woman finding attractive nor a good incentive.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

My wife has said she believes women are hard wired since caveman days to seek strong men, so they want to please Dominant men by nature. In her case she was badly abused as a child and picked up a lot of guilt, which I do think drives her masochism.

That double whammy, so to speak, may be why she must be under my Dominant control 24/7. Who knows. Her psychiatrists said don’t think about it, just take care of her if I love her.

I’ve always been extremely self assured so the only tough part was accepting that she wasn’t going to stand up and be strongly independent next to me. She accepts being protected by me. A very strong visual for her is the norse warrior with his woman being protected behind him.

She likes to role play I captured her from a northern village and took her away from those weak village men to give her a life with me, a courageous warrior who knows how to take what I want. 

I play into her needs every minute of every day. Strong, controlling, decisive. She knows I will control her in a way that’s good for her. She has faith I just won’t demand anything that will actually make her unhappy. And I will demand things that will please her.

We have been married 44 years and by now I have a pretty good idea what will make her happy. 

I will note, she never lets me do anything around the house, and if I even make a sexual innuendo her clothes fall off. Her goal is to make me happy. Constantly. We got to this point back in 1981 through 1985, so I don’t really remember what exactly it took.

Except I had to take control, completely. That was certain.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

inmyprime said:


> I agree I completely don’t get the whole tit for tat thing or what it’s supposed to be about. ‘I make you tea and you have to **** me’. It’s just demeaning, but in the completely wrong kind of sense that I don’t see any woman finding attractive nor a good incentive.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


yeah, its pretty obvious that you and most people dont understand it at all. "ill make you tea and you have to **** me" is about the most dismissive and dumb way of describing the tact that i have seen. 

try this instead: "i will put as much effort into making you feel loved as you put into making me feel loved".
or, how about this: "you did something that i really appreciate, so i am going to do something nice for you to show my appreciation". 

does that sound demeaning?


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

minimalME said:


> I think it totally depends on your wife as to which tactic you take.
> 
> Dominance would work very well with me. Tit for tat, I'd completely shut down - I'd find it disrespectful and offensive. And it would put me in the initiator position, which would affect my level of respect and attraction (ie more shutting down).


tit for tat isn't something that is supposed to turn someone on... its goal is to get the other person to cooperate when they are refusing to cooperate, by making it beneficial to the other person to do so. if the other person is already cooperating, it isnt needed.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> yeah, its pretty obvious that you and most people dont understand it at all. "ill make you tea and you have to **** me" is about the most dismissive and dumb way of describing the tact that i have seen.
> 
> try this instead: "i will put as much effort into making you feel loved as you put into making me feel loved".
> or, how about this: "you did something that i really appreciate, so i am going to do something nice for you to show my appreciation".
> ...



For my relationship, I would still view it as demeaning, yes. We usually do things for each other not because we expect anything in return or as a ‘reward mechanism’. We did this for a dog. Our cat is still smarter than this...
In my view, a relationship will have descended to in almost unsalvageable level when this tactic is used. (And I would still not use it even then). 

"i will put as much effort into making you feel loved as you put into making me feel loved".

If anyone used this sentence as their marriage vowel, I wonder how many marriages would still go ahead. 

Great it works for you and others. I would however say that it has not worked for GreenOrb and perhaps it’s time to try something else . And this thread is about him that’s why I mentioned it. I did not intend to offend anyone who swears by this and if I did, I apologise.




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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Ps: there were times in our marriage when I wasn’t happy with the way of things. First point was communicating it clearly. Not once but we had many discussions. It usually worked the first time around.

There were two occasions when I either left or were ready leave. This was mostly about something else and lack of sex played only a small part.

I never stopped doing stuff that was expected of me. Nor did I keep a score how much she is doing in bed so that I can adjust my behaviour. It’s just not something that would have worked with us. We are talking about two adult people. They are not children and UNDERSTAND what is at stake.

Of course a nice gesture should be noticed and appreciated and nothing should be taken for granted. But that’s very different from ‘I will show you my love the way you show me yours’ or whatever it was.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

One thing for sure, if someone is always giving and receives nothing in return we all view that as being taken advantage of.

It is possible there was a time before my wife and I got things rolling that it could have been viewed as limited give and take, if I remember right. I know I thought of what happened after her visit with her shrink in 1985 as a vortex of positive feedback looping. 

Things happened so fast then, and went so far it’s still incredible to me. 

But the tit for tat concept could possibly have been used to describe how I insisted I would refuse some things unless she toed the line. She was trying to prove her love after her affair, and the issues with her lies kept coming up so things were difficult. I had tremendous leverage.

Still, no one is ever expected to just keep giving if they don’t get what they need in return. We call that being a doormat.


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## Don't Panic (Apr 2, 2017)

minimalME said:


> I think it totally depends on your wife as to which tactic you take.
> 
> Dominance would work very well with me. Tit for tat, I'd completely shut down - I'd find it disrespectful and offensive. And it would put me in the initiator position, which would affect my level of respect and attraction (ie more shutting down).





As'laDain said:


> tit for tat isn't something that is supposed to turn someone on... its goal is to get the other person to cooperate when they are refusing to cooperate, by making it beneficial to the other person to do so. if the other person is already cooperating, it isnt needed.


Exactly. I'm not sure how I would react to the tit/tat approach, I suspect not well, but because my husband and I have contributed and cooperated fairly equally to our relationship and household over the past 20 years that dynamic has not been required. I can see how it was a successful tactic for As'laDain and his wife because of their dynamic. 

I enjoy both of your unique perspectives on TAM issues. Very helpful.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

in our case, my wife was not willing to cooperate with me at first. she showed a lot of disdain for the idea of meeting my emotional needs. tit for tat worked in getting her to actually make an effort, because suddenly she found herself losing a bunch of things that she didn't want to lose. that doesnt mean things were fixed at that point, it just meant that she was willing to work with me. the biggest thing it did was get her to actually listen to what i was saying. before then, she had only had experience with men lying to her and hurting, so she couldn't believe a word i said.

i could tell green orb the next steps we took, but if he cant get his wife to take him seriously, those steps dont apply. right now, he needs to see that his wife is taking him seriously. he needs her to stop belittling his need for intimacy. 

what most people dont understand about tit for tat is that it is a strategy that should only be employed in situations where you wish you didn't have to employ it in order to be taken seriously. it is not the "foundation" of a relationship. it is not really a part of my current relationship with my wife. 

it was probably easier for me to apply it than a lot of other people because, in my case, i had nothing to lose. i did not feel in the least bit loved by my wife. our relationship dynamic back then bore no resemblance to our relationship dynamic today.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

As'laDain said:


> tit for tat isn't something that is supposed to turn someone on... its goal is to get the other person to cooperate when they are refusing to cooperate, by making it beneficial to the other person to do so. if the other person is already cooperating, it isnt needed.


Oh, I completely understand what it's for - and it wouldn't work with me. I wouldn't cooperate. I'd leave.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

minimalME said:


> Oh, I completely understand what it's for - and it wouldn't work with me. I wouldn't cooperate. I'd leave.


that works too. i would rather leave my wife than stay married to someone who refused to cooperate with me. sometimes letting go is the best option.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

As'laDain said:


> that works too. i would rather leave my wife than stay married to someone who refused to cooperate with me. sometimes letting go is the best option.


But to clarify...what you're suggesting is a power struggle. It's not cooperating out of love, which is the dynamic that I'd start from.

My marriage was a constant power struggle, and I was the one always trying to fix it. I won't do that ever again.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

minimalME said:


> But to clarify...what you're suggesting is a power struggle. It's not cooperating out of love, which is the dynamic that I'd start from.
> 
> My marriage was a constant power struggle, and I was the one always trying to fix it. I won't do that ever again.


i understand. which highlights something...

anyone attempting to use tit for tat had better have something to offer. if you are just miserable to work with, then you are shooting yourself in the foot. in your case, it doesn't sound like your husband was offering you much, so he would have been shooting himself in the foot.

in a case where someone is not meeting their partners needs, the successful tit for tat move would be to start meeting them. its a part of the game theory a lot of people forget about. it is one of the most successful strategies at promoting cooperation in almost every relationship(business, peer, job relationships, etc). which is to say, it encourages cooperation from both parties. the goal is mutually beneficial cooperation, or mutually detrimental un-cooperation. 

the key word is mutual.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

As'laDain said:


> i understand. which highlights something...
> 
> anyone attempting to use tit for tat had better have something to offer. if you are just miserable to work with, then you are shooting yourself in the foot. in your case, it doesn't sound like your husband was offering you much, so he would have been shooting himself in the foot.
> 
> ...


I still choose to be dominated.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

minimalME said:


> I still choose to be dominated.


lol, so did Akinaura. 

:grin2:


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> our relationship dynamic back then bore no resemblance to our relationship dynamic today.



So perhaps it wasn’t the tit for tat that eventually made your relationship turn the corner? Perhaps she felt tired having that sort of dynamic in a relationship? (That can easily become a vicious circle and snowballing into resentment).
Either way, I’m glad the dynamic is very different now than it used to be and it is not necessary to use this anymore



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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

inmyprime said:


> So perhaps it wasn’t the tit for tat that eventually made your relationship turn the corner? Perhaps she felt tired having that sort of dynamic in a relationship? (That can easily become a vicious circle and snowballing into resentment).
> Either way, I’m glad the dynamic is very different now than it used to be and it is not necessary to use this anymore
> 
> 
> ...


go back a page and see what she had to say about it...




> Look. Dude...if you want something to change, get up and make it happen. Stop pandering around and actually do it.
> 
> Here's a snippet from my relationship from @As'laDain : Back a couple of years ago, As'ladain and I were just starting out in our marriage. He would coddle me, and I would sit on my "royal" butt. He would do EVERYTHING in the house, and I would do nothing. He would put all the intimacy into the marriage, and I gave nothing. When As'ladain came home from work, and saw that the house had not been cleaned he would start cleaning it. Well, then that would cause me to starting yelling and screaming about how he was making me feel horrible. Well that was the final straw after that 20th or so time of me yelling. As'ladain pulled out all the stops and just stopped giving ANY attention to the relationship. He put in as much effort to the relationship as I was. And he TOLD ME CLEARLY that was what he was doing. If I wanted a hug, I had to help out with the house. It became nearly a tit for tat issue, but it worked. If I wanted intimacy from him, I had to GIVE intimacy to him. After a while the tit for tat strategy became a thing of memory, but the habit of it didn't. It's how we correct issues to this day. It's how we keep each other accountable to each other...and we will hit our 10 year anniversary in 4 months.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> go back a page and see what she had to say about it...



“If I wanted intimacy from him, I had to GIVE intimacy to him”

It’s not quite the same though, is it?

I understand what you mean that ‘tit for tat’ is supposed to just be a tool to make the other partner sit up and listen. 
But the problem is that many people are using it as a general ‘currency mechanism’ in their relationship and I still maintain that this is not healthy because it’s more likely than not to just spiral out of control and become the norm where both are not doing anything for each other and resent each other.

And the thing is, you TOLD her why you were doing this which i think is crucial. Is it not possible that she LISTENED to you? 

There will be a lot of spouses who will have no clue why someone suddenly became more distant and uncooperative.

GreenOrb’s wife may just decide that he doesn’t care and love her anymore, turn it around on him and leave him or make him leave her. I think a lot can get lost in translation if communication is left out: I still think it would be more effective to communicate what the actual problem is and then be prepared to carry out whatever consequence necessary, if it falls on deaf ears.

Tit for tat can become very messy, very quickly.




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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

inmyprime said:


> “If I wanted intimacy from him, I had to GIVE intimacy to him”
> 
> It’s not quite the same though, is it?
> 
> ...


well, akinaura didnt listen to me for the first year, when i what i was saying wasnt matching what i was doing. which is why i have been so adamant about making sure words line up with actions. i was SAYING that i wanted more from her, but i wasnt doing anything about it. and she would SAY that she wanted things from me, but in action, was doing nothing to get those things. 

tit for tat can just as easily get really awesome, really quickly. but seriously, what is the other option when your spouse is not taking you seriously? leave? communicate (ie, whine) some more? if the words are doing nothing, then actions need to take over. 

i get why everyone has such an issue with it. if you talk to relationship "experts" they warn against "tit for tat". but, they are talking about it in a purely negative context. they dont even use the term correctly as it was in its original context, its like people came up with their own version of it in order to twist its goal. why? how is it that a strategy that is heralded as THE most effective strategy to engender cooperation is considered so terrible in marriages? my guess is because it does not line up with the disney way of thinking these days. that romantic relationships should be all puppy dogs and roses. and it doesnt line up with the idea that its normal that men should stop wanting to be sexually desired by their wives after marriage. 

but sure, lets look for reasons why it really wasnt effective in our case. lets look at all the decisions that my wife made as a result, and point to THOSE as being the reason why our marriage is better. the actions i took that led her to making those decisions had nothing to do with it, right? 

in a healthy relationship, everyone already does all of the things that a tit for tat strategy would have them do. they meet cooperative actions with cooperative actions. they put effort into making their partner feel loved because their partner is putting effort into making them feel loved. but, nobody thinks of that as tit for tat, even though that is EXACTLY what one would do when following it. in unhealthy relationships, the strategy is not being followed. one party makes cooperative moves, the other does not. 

so again, what is the solution?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Prime,
The one thing I am certain of is this. Orb needs to jolt the marital dynamic. 

Unfortunately he is currently running compliance plays. This is straight out the compliance chapter of the playbook. 

For the nth time - reason I suggest that folks wrestle as a type of dominance play is that it is fairly simple and while it has a sexual over tone it isn’t really a bdsm move. 

Most folks don’t go from sexless to bdsm stuff. They just don’t. Most bdsm folks have a good sex life but they are a bit bored. 

Wrestling is like crawling or walking. It is easy and low risk. 

Thing is - I have yet to see Orb - do a single thing that I would categorize as dominant. 

He’s anxious about sex. Anxious about dominance. All normal stuff. And exactly why people in sex lite, or sexless marriages can add dominance to their marital dynamic but tend to be unable to jump straight into a bdsm flavored sex life. 

Reason why is simple. When I am wrestling you, I am simply trying to overpower you. That’s it. Well that’s what I’m doing. M2 is actually trying to bruise, scratch or bite me. 

Point being - I am not trying to make her wet. Just overpower her. That’s easy and fun. If she gets hot fine by me. If she doesn’t, fine by me. 






inmyprime said:


> “If I wanted intimacy from him, I had to GIVE intimacy to him”
> 
> It’s not quite the same though, is it?
> 
> ...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> well, akinaura didnt listen to me for the first year, when i what i was saying wasnt matching what i was doing. which is why i have been so adamant about making sure words line up with actions. i was SAYING that i wanted more from her, but i wasnt doing anything about it. and she would SAY that she wanted things from me, but in action, was doing nothing to get those things.
> 
> tit for tat can just as easily get really awesome, really quickly. but seriously, what is the other option when your spouse is not taking you seriously? leave? communicate (ie, whine) some more? if the words are doing nothing, then actions need to take over.


I don’t see communication as ‘whining’ at all. 
Yes, if communication doesn’t work and if no compromise can be reached then the next natural step is considering leaving. At that point, you will know exactly where you stand in your partner’s eyes. That way, you actually fast forward the whole process and find out earlier, rather than later, that your partner may just not give a rats ass about you and your relationship.

I actually always equated tit for tat more to another form of sulking. Because men are generally not great at communicating their needs (due to pride, embarrassment etc), it’s easier to just use tit for tat because you don’t actually need to say anything but it gives out the appearance that one is doing something about it. Most women don’t speak that language (of no words). Unless one is married to a seal. (This is again only an opinion and I’m glad that it works for some people).



As'laDain said:


> i get why everyone has such an issue with it. if you talk to relationship "experts" they warn against "tit for tat".


I wonder why? 



As'laDain said:


> but, they are talking about it in a purely negative context. they dont even use the term correctly as it was in its original context, its like people came up with their own version of it in order to twist its goal. why? how is it that a strategy that is heralded as THE most effective strategy to engender cooperation is considered so terrible in marriages?


Business contracts are based on specific and limited agreements between parties (which don’t always work either btw). Relationships are WAY more complicated than that. In fact because relationships are so complicated, one could argue that leaving, when it reaches a breaking point, could be considered as the ultimate ‘tit for tat’. “It’s not working for me anymore, we have to go our separate ways”.



As'laDain said:


> my guess is because it does not line up with the disney way of thinking these days. that romantic relationships should be all puppy dogs and roses. and it doesnt line up with the idea that its normal that men should stop wanting to be sexually desired by their wives after marriage.
> 
> but sure, lets look for reasons why it really wasnt effective in our case. lets look at all the decisions that my wife made as a result, and point to THOSE as being the reason why our marriage is better. the actions i took that led her to making those decisions had nothing to do with it, right?


I never said that. The most important action you took (IMO) was the fact that you TOLD her that you are not prepared to tolerate this from her anymore. 



As'laDain said:


> in a healthy relationship, everyone already does all of the things that a tit for tat strategy would have them do. they meet cooperative actions with cooperative actions. they put effort into making their partner feel loved because their partner is putting effort into making them feel loved. but, nobody thinks of that as tit for tat, even though that is EXACTLY what one would do when following it. in unhealthy relationships, the strategy is not being followed. one party makes cooperative moves, the other does not.]


Well no, it’s not like that for me. I often do things because I love her, without expecting anything in return. In fact those are the things that make me the most happy. 
I know it is the same for her. 
If that is too ‘Disney’ then I guess that’s our ‘whole new world’ 
And yes, I could very well be deluding myself.

Like I said, I would never be able to keep track whether we are ‘even’ or not. Keeping track of it would require a currency with too small a denomination. But I know when the relationship is significantly out of balance, then major action is required which will either bring the relationship back into balance, or rip it apart. If the latter then to me it’s an indication that it was beyond repair already and it’s better that it happened earlier rather than later.



As'laDain said:


> so again, what is the solution?



I hope I explained what the ‘solution’ for me was.



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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> Prime,
> The one thing I am certain of is this. Orb needs to jolt the marital dynamic.


Yes I completely agree with this. However given her more recent responses (that she is fine having sex every 6 months and doesn’t understand what it is he wants her to change etc) I am beginning to wonder whether dominance alone is going to achieve the desired result. I find it difficult to assess the overall health of their dynamic with only one person writing so it’s always helpful when people write what their spouse actually says (rather than what they think they say).



MEM2020 said:


> Unfortunately he is currently running compliance plays. This is straight out the compliance chapter of the playbook.
> 
> For the nth time - reason I suggest that folks wrestle as a type of dominance play is that it is fairly simple and while it has a sexual over tone it isn’t really a bdsm move.
> 
> Most folks don’t go from sexless to bdsm stuff. They just don’t. Most bdsm folks have a good sex life but they are a bit bored.


I’m not sure that’s the case. My grandfather still says something like this why some people ‘choose’ to ‘become’ gay (because they are bored)...
I can imagine that many are not able to enjoy a ‘regular’ sex life, unless there are always overtones of domination of some kind in their sex life. Whether it’s wrestling or something else, it’s important to understand the psychological aspect of it and customise it accordingly to the partner. 
The reason I brought any of it up was to try and explain the psychology behind it, not to recommend that he jumps ‘all the way in’.
Wrestling could definitely be a good ice breaker though I agree.



MEM2020 said:


> Wrestling is like crawling or walking. It is easy and low risk.
> 
> Thing is - I have yet to see Orb - do a single thing that I would categorize as dominant.
> 
> ...



That’s because you know that her engines will fire up eventually  I am not sure GreenOrb can have the same confidence in his relationship, and for good reasons.




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## Akinaura (Dec 6, 2011)

inmyprime said:


> I don’t see communication as ‘whining’ at all.
> Yes, if communication doesn’t work and if no compromise can be reached then the next natural step is considering leaving. At that point, you will know exactly where you stand in your partner’s eyes. That way, you actually fast forward the whole process and find out earlier, rather than later, that your partner may just not give a rats ass about you and your relationship.
> 
> I actually always equated tit for tat more to another form of sulking. Because men are generally not great at communicating their needs (due to pride, embarrassment etc), it’s easier to just use tit for tat because you don’t actually need to say anything but it gives out the appearance that one is doing something about it. Most women don’t speak that language (of no words). Unless one is married to a seal. (This is again only an opinion and I’m glad that it works for some people).
> ...


Wow oh wow, dude, I would have walked all over you from the onset if you had been Asladain...

Women don't speak the language of no words? Are you kidding me? What, you don't teach your daughter to behave with rules, boundaries, and consequences? You just use words? How does that work with a toddler? Oh wait, maybe I'm reaching a bit with the age, I'll bring it up to teenagers, high schoolers, college students, and working women. They can tell if someone is approachable, aggressive, upset, or several other emotions...all without words. But no, we don't "that language of no words".

As for the second part, jeez, way to go for the nuclear option there...oh words won't work, better just give up and walk away. That sounds just plain lazy. What happened to the era of hard work in a marriage? Where words stopped and actions actually happened? Where BOTH parties could be held to their word by what their ACTIONS were? You would rather run away when words fail than stick it out and make things uncomfortable for your spouse. Things are uncomfortable for you, so, peace, you're gone. Wow, just wow.

And by the way, I didn't "LISTEN" to Asladain. I didn't believe a word that came out of his mouth when we were first married due to my past. He had to prove to me with his ACTIONS and his WORDS that they were actually the same. And when his ACTIONS and his WORDS lined up, that's when I could believe his words. When that happened, things actually started getting better. Not because we were better at talking!

Oh, and one last thing...don't tell me what I was feeling or thinking at the time...last I checked I don't have a sock puppet account, so you can't be me.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Akinaura said:


> Wow oh wow, dude, I would have walked all over you from the onset if you had been Asladain...
> 
> 
> 
> Women don't speak the language of no words? Are you kidding me? What, you don't teach your daughter to behave with rules, boundaries, and consequences? You just use words? How does that work with a toddler? Oh wait, maybe I'm reaching a bit with the age, I'll bring it up to teenagers, high schoolers, college students, and working women. They can tell if someone is approachable, aggressive, upset, or several other emotions...all without words. But no, we don't "that language of no words".


That was precisely my point: your spouse is not a child and treating them as such would for me seem counterproductive and wrong on many levels. But like I said, I’m glad it worked out well in your case.





Akinaura said:


> As for the second part, jeez, way to go for the nuclear option there...oh words won't work, better just give up and walk away. That sounds just plain lazy. What happened to the era of hard work in a marriage? Where words stopped and actions actually happened? Where BOTH parties could be held to their word by what their ACTIONS were? You would rather run away when words fail than stick it out and make things uncomfortable for your spouse. Things are uncomfortable for you, so, peace, you're gone. Wow, just wow.


I think perhaps I wasn’t clear: the ‘nuclear’ option is the last option, if all communication fails. It’s not ‘running away’, it’s the realisation that no agreement or compromise can be reached anymore.

I am not sure how to phrase it without offending but I could not imagine it ever being my place to try and ‘condition’ my wife to change her behaviour, as an already formed human being, with a reward mechanism that one would otherwise typically use on a dog or a child.





Akinaura said:


> And by the way, I didn't "LISTEN" to Asladain. I didn't believe a word that came out of his mouth when we were first married due to my past. He had to prove to me with his ACTIONS that I could trust him. And when his ACTIONS and his WORDS lined up, that's when things started getting better. Not because we were better at talking!



I’m not sure which ‘actions’ you are referring to. Do you mean the action of the inaction on his part, in order for you to do something that he thought you were supposed to do, that you would otherwise not do, unless he didn’t do something to you first?

It’s just a little convoluted for me but I can see how in some cases it can work and applaud you guys for making the necessary choices to make your marriage to your satisfaction. That’s what really counts in the end.



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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Akinaura said:


> Oh, and one last thing...don't tell me what I was feeling or thinking at the time...last I checked I don't have a sock puppet account, so you can't be me.



I was asking, not telling. But thanks for clarifying.



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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

inmyprime said:


> That was precisely my point: your spouse is not a child and treating them as such would for me seem counterproductive and wrong on many levels. But like I said, I’m glad it worked out well in your case.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


you really have no idea what tit for tat is, do you? 

tit for tat is not a reward system! it is not a strategy to "condition" someone. where are you getting this from? people who parrot such misunderstandings are the reason why so few people understand it these days...


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## Akinaura (Dec 6, 2011)

@inmyprime

Is this tit for tat or something else?

• If you keep using foul language, then I will get up and leave.

• If you’re going to complain about how I drive, then I will stop the car and won’t drive any farther until you get out or be quiet.

• If you keep yelling at me, then I will hang up the phone.

• If you send any more offensive text messages, I will block your number.

• If you intend to dress like that, then I won’t go with you.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

Akinaura said:


> @inmyprime
> 
> Is this tit for tat or something else?
> 
> ...


I would say those are not tit for tat. Tit for tat would be more like:

• If you keep using foul language, I am going to use foul language too.

• If you're going to complain about how I drive, I'll complain about how you drive too.

• If you keep yelling at me, I will yell at you.

etc.

What you're describing is just actions having logical consequences.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> you really have no idea what tit for tat is, do you?
> 
> 
> 
> tit for tat is not a reward system! it is not a strategy to "condition" someone. where are you getting this from? people who parrot such misunderstandings are the reason why so few people understand it these days...



From your wife:

“If I wanted a hug, I had to help out with the house. It became nearly a tit for tat issue, but it worked. If I wanted intimacy from him, I had to GIVE intimacy to him. After a while the tit for tat strategy became a thing of memory, but the habit of it didn't.”

I must be thick but can you explain to me how a hug would not be a reward for cleaning the house to condition your wife’s behaviour to clean the house more often?

Actually Cambridge dictionary defines tit for tat as “actions done intentionally to punish other people because they have done something unpleasant to you”. 

I assume it goes both ways: punishment for bad behaviour versus positive reward for good behaviour. It’s classical conditioning (kind of), aka Pavlov Dog:  https://study.com/academy/lesson/i...-experiments-contributions-to-psychology.html


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Does this mean that if I get better at tat, I'll get more tit?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Does this mean that if I get better at tat, I'll get more tit?



You got tat in a nut(shell).


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## Akinaura (Dec 6, 2011)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> I would say those are not tit for tat. Tit for tat would be more like:
> 
> • If you keep using foul language, I am going to use foul language too.
> 
> ...


Both are effective tit for tat strategies, just yours is more commonly seen as the "urban dictionary" definition for tit for tat...and more likely to escalate the situation. When utilizing tit-for-tat game strategy, both become just as effective if you look at them in light of cooperative and uncooperative moves.

Oh, and for the record, I typed out the examples from my workbook on Setting Boundaries. :smile2: Boundaries, tit for tat, they are all the same...it's all about setting out what you are willing to accept, letting others know what you are willing to accept, and telling them exactly what you are going to do if that line is crossed...or level of cooperation >


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

inmyprime said:


> From your wife:
> 
> “If I wanted a hug, I had to help out with the house. It became nearly a tit for tat issue, but it worked. If I wanted intimacy from him, I had to GIVE intimacy to him. After a while the tit for tat strategy became a thing of memory, but the habit of it didn't.”
> 
> ...


how is anything you do for your wife not a reward for things that she does for you? is it because you love her? if so, then maybe you CAN understand how its not a reward.


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## Akinaura (Dec 6, 2011)

inmyprime said:


> From your wife:
> 
> “If I wanted a hug, I had to help out with the house. It became nearly a tit for tat issue, but it worked. If I wanted intimacy from him, I had to GIVE intimacy to him. After a while the tit for tat strategy became a thing of memory, but the habit of it didn't.”
> 
> ...


Condition my behavior? Shall I bark for my next trick?

Do you not get that it goes SO FAR beyond just the house, just the hug? Or are you so hung up on the simple freaking words being used that you're not wanting to hear what else is being said? It's like you are having a knee jerk reaction to this. You simply refuse to accept this being possible for anyone else except us. How is this possible when the business world utilizes this to a great success and it has only been in the last 100 years that marriages have stopped being viewed as a partnership and more an expression of love?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

One hundred percent agree with the bit about writing what their spouse says. And just to add: getting their spouse to talk

Anxiety creates this terribly inward focusing view. So people tell us about the talk and it’s this long, painful narration of what they said and barely a mention of what they heard in response. 

As for the tit for tat, I agree you can not operate a marriage that way. But it might work as a defibrillator for a cold start. 

If it was me - I would do it quickly and completely. Done slowly, your partner acclimates and you drift apart. 

Admittedly, it is hard for me to assist in this situation as I never would have tolerated a year of this much less 15+. And - then - M2 and I simply don’t reject each other’s requests. The chapter on rejection - in our marital handbook - has a single page with 7 words on it: Don’t reject the person who loves you.

And that goes for rejection of any request. 




inmyprime said:


> Yes I completely agree with this. However given her more recent responses (that she is fine having sex every 6 months and doesn’t understand what it is he wants her to change etc) I am beginning to wonder whether dominance alone is going to achieve the desired result. I find it difficult to assess the overall health of their dynamic with only one person writing so it’s always helpful when people write what their spouse actually says (rather than what they think they say).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

MEM2020 said:


> One hundred percent agree with the bit about writing what their spouse says. And just to add: getting their spouse to talk
> 
> Anxiety creates this terribly inward focusing view. So people tell us about the talk and it’s this long, painful narration of what they said and barely a mention of what they heard in response.
> 
> ...


i have noticed that... it seems that very little attention is given to the problem of WHAT someone can do when their spouse is rejecting them. it is a sorely neglected topic. 

which is probably part of the reason why so many people have such a hard time actually doing anything about it when it happens to them...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The key theme absolutely is rejection. 

But it’s a bit too convenient to automatically lay that fully on the person rejecting.

If M2 wants more edge, more dominance and I ignore that - isn’t that me rejecting her. 

If I’m doing that for a long time, and she starts declining sex at normal frequency - who exactly is rejecting who. 

This dance of bids - emotional bids - is a big deal. M2 routinely bids or cues for edge. My default level of edge is simply too low for her. When asked for more - I gladly oblige. 




As'laDain said:


> i have noticed that... it seems that very little attention is given to the problem of WHAT someone can do when their spouse is rejecting them. it is a sorely neglected topic.
> 
> which is probably part of the reason why so many people have such a hard time actually doing anything about it when it happens to them...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> how is anything you do for your wife not a reward for things that she does for you? is it because you love her? if so, then maybe you CAN understand how its not a reward.



It’s not a reward because my behaviour is not going to be based or dependant on her behaviour and vice versa.
Yes sometimes people get pissed off about something and naturally do less or stop doing anything but when you formulate it as a general ‘strategy’ in a relationship in order to get them to do what you want, that’s when I feel it becomes inappropriate. 
Anyway, I don’t mean to mock it. I’m just clarifying. For example: ‘You really pissed me off, now I don’t feel like doing x, y and z’. Or ‘I’m going to refuse doing x, y and z until you start doing a, b and c’. 
Those two are very different for me. Perhaps that’s not the case with you.


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

MEM2020 said:


> As for the tit for tat, I agree you can not operate a marriage that way. But it might work as a defibrillator for a cold start.


I can see how tit for tat would work for some, but right now I don't think my marriage is in an extreme enough situation to warrant its use a first tactic. If I was getting virtually no sex and I was also doing most things round the house, then it could possibly be the only thing left to do. But there is some (if limited) affection in our marriage and the division of labour round the house is fairly even.

However at present I have some hope that G2 is willing to cooperate with me. In the last few days (and as accurately as I can remember) she has said:
- Since my job moved much nearer home about 5 months ago I have changed and improved as a husband and man
- I asked her directly last night if she thought sex once a month was a reasonable amount for two people in a loving committed relationship. She agreed it was not enough to keep both partners happy
- I expressed my displeasure/disappointment that despite the change in me, she feels she can steadfastly remain unchanged and not increase the amount of physical contact between us. Last night she admitted that that was unfair of her. Although at times she said she felt like I was trying to back her into a corner by demanding we put a sex night in the diary

So right now I'm trying to bring some tension back to our relationship. It is G2's time of the month, so nothing can happen for the next few days anyway. But I'm trying to introduce domination plays where I can, eg, pushing her around a bit, smacking her on the butt, pushing her against the wall. Last night while we were in the kitchen and she suddenly punched me in the stomach for no reason, so I (gently) hit her back then wrestled her into a position where her arms were pinned and I could smack her bum. Right now I'm not sure if any of this is turning her on (she claimed last night it isn't), but she hasn't complained so far, and I think we are both quite enjoying it. We have always had quite an "abusive" verbal relationship, so me being more dominant physically feels like an extension of that. Remains to be seen if I can keep it going in the bedroom when the time comes.



MEM2020 said:


> Admittedly, it is hard for me to assist in this situation as I never would have tolerated a year of this much less 15+.


If I could travel back in time and visit myself 20 years ago I would probably give myself a huge smack in the face. I drifted through life during my 20s and early 30s, and in some respects only have myself to blame for my current scenario. All I can do now is look forward and make amends.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Start a physical confrontation in the bedroom. And then overpower her - pin her. 

And stop asking what turns her on. Stop doing that. Just pay attention for a while to reaction patterns. 

You are trying to avoid embarrassment in an anonymous thread. It is why you share so little about what is happening. 

Nothing to be embarrassed about. This is a huge change your attempting. 

She really wants more edge from you, hence the stomach punch.




GreenOrb said:


> I can see how tit for tat would work for some, but right now I don't think my marriage is in an extreme enough situation to warrant its use a first tactic. If I was getting virtually no sex and I was also doing most things round the house, then it could possibly be the only thing left to do. But there is some (if limited) affection in our marriage and the division of labour round the house is fairly even.
> 
> However at present I have some hope that G2 is willing to cooperate with me. In the last few days (and as accurately as I can remember) she has said:
> - Since my job moved much nearer home about 5 months ago I have changed and improved as a husband and man
> ...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

GreenOrb said:


> I can see how tit for tat would work for some, but right now I don't think my marriage is in an extreme enough situation to warrant its use a first tactic. If I was getting virtually no sex and I was also doing most things round the house, then it could possibly be the only thing left to do. But there is some (if limited) affection in our marriage and the division of labour round the house is fairly even.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This last bit is again new information i don’t think you mentioned before. If you ‘changed’ and improved only recently, you cannot expect to undo years of (possibly) neglecting the marriage. I have seen many men being unrealistically impatient with this and thinking that now that they changed, their marriage dynamic should change straight away too. I know you are not doing it. It’s just something to be aware of in case she might perceive you as being impatient.

Regarding diary: it’s not supposed to be something to pressure her into sex (I think you may have killed it by asking her perhaps one too many times if it’s still happening as the date approached closer which can be a bit of a turn off). It’s just to agree mutually on a day so that she can move it higher up the list of her priorities since it won’t happen spontaneously.

And yes, definitely don’t keep asking her if something is turning her on or not. You have to project calm confidence with whatever it is you do.



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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> Start a physical confrontation in the bedroom. And then overpower her - pin her.
> 
> And stop asking what turns her on. Stop doing that. Just pay attention for a while to reaction patterns.
> 
> ...


Gosh - I would never punch someone to be playful. :surprise:


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

MEM2020 said:


> And stop asking what turns her on. Stop doing that. Just pay attention for a while to reaction patterns.
> 
> You are trying to avoid embarrassment in an anonymous thread. It is why you share so little about what is happening.
> 
> Nothing to be embarrassed about. This is a huge change your attempting.


I didn't ask her last night, she simply offered it up as she left the room, I think it was her parting shot. Maybe I missed a trick by not saying "yes you were".

However I have definitely asked her things like this in the past. In fact, the last time we had sex and I was getting nowhere I think I may have done it (shudder). I've learned already from yourself and several others that this is not a dominant move, so I've cut it out.

I'll keep everything as detailed as possible going forwards.




inmyprime said:


> This last bit is again new information i don’t think you mentioned before. If you ‘changed’ and improved only recently, you cannot expect to undo years of (possibly) neglecting the marriage. I have seen many men being unrealistically impatient with this and thinking that now that they changed, their marriage dynamic should change straight away too. I know you are not doing it. It’s just something to be aware of in case she might perceive you as being impatient.


I think I've mentioned it somewhere back. But this is why I'm trying not to move too fast on her, hence going for a sex night every two weeks to start. I felt I had the capacity to start changing things 2-3 years ago, but my job chewed up so much of my time that I didn't have the emotional or mental capacity (I was commuting 3-4 hours each day in a job that was already long hours). Although in turn she rewarded my lack of engagement with very little sex or physical contact. So we were basically even.


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

minimalME said:


> Gosh - I would never punch someone to be playful. :surprise:


It was a mock punch really, didn't hurt.


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

MEM2020 said:


> You are trying to avoid embarrassment in an anonymous thread. It is why you share so little about what is happening.


How much detail do you want? I can post up our day to day interactions?


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

inmyprime said:


> It’s not a reward because my behaviour is not going to be based or dependant on her behaviour and vice versa.
> Yes sometimes people get pissed off about something and naturally do less or stop doing anything but when you formulate it as a general ‘strategy’ in a relationship in order to get them to do what you want, that’s when I feel it becomes inappropriate.
> Anyway, I don’t mean to mock it. I’m just clarifying. For example: ‘You really pissed me off, now I don’t feel like doing x, y and z’. Or ‘I’m going to refuse doing x, y and z until you start doing a, b and c’.
> Those two are very different for me. Perhaps that’s not the case with you.
> ...


the issue is that a lot of people dont do that. they just suck it up, dont say anything, and let resentment build. which is why they end up in unhealthy relationships. 

there is no need to tell someone who gets it that they should not be a doormat. those people go on to form healthy relationships naturally. but for those who do not, they have to think of it as a strategy because it is NOT what comes naturally to them. it is foreign concept. 

just look at what green orb said a while ago... he had one instance of really terrible sex. but, it was sex, so he will take it. it is a terrible way to view it.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

there is a way to ask your spouse what turns her on without it being a turn off. basically, never ask if what YOU are doing is turning her on. 

the easiest way is to have them show you what kind of porn they watch, or have them pick out porn. watch and see what elements are involved. if they dont watch porn, maybe they read romance novels. pick one up and read, see what elements are involved. if she is open to telling you, then you could also just ask her what her sexual fantasies are, but she is just as likely to tell you she has none. unless she is actually turned on a bit. it has been my experience that women have a hard time explaining it if they do not frequently think about it.

another way is to tell her to masturbate while fantasizing out loud. tell them that what you want to see is them losing their **** as they get lost in the fantasy. tell them that you want to hear them say it out loud, hear the quiver in their voice as they get so turned on that it overtakes them. 

that last one requires more trust and dominance than where you are at right now, @GreenOrb. for it to work, she would have to be willing to submit to your order to masturbate in front of you while verbally talking through a fantasy. if she were willing to do so, however, you will quickly find out which elements turn her on. it would be nearly impossible for her to verbalize a fantasy that she doesn't have while getting herself off. it would have to be a real turn on of hers, or it simply wouldn't turn her on. 

just never ask if what you are DOING is going to turn her on.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

MEM2020 said:


> The key theme absolutely is rejection.
> 
> But it’s a bit too convenient to automatically lay that fully on the person rejecting.
> 
> ...


the only person who can advocate for their needs is the person who has the need. if M2 needs more from you but you are not doing enough, the only person who can advocate for her is HER. 

i dont think you would have too much of an issue with it if she did something drastic in order to make sure that you really understand that she needs more. i imagine that you would probably rather her act out and do something unpleasant so that you know what the problem is than have her keep it to herself and just slowly pull away from you. 

often, words alone do not convey the meaning of what we want to communicate. if i say something is important to me, but never do anything about not getting it, then it would not be unusual for someone to believe that it really isn't all that important to me.

i have no problem forgiving such failures at communication, but it seems that a lot of people do. 

people end up saying things like:
"i have told you this A MILLION TIMES ALREADY!"

-they said it a million times with their words. but it often takes saying it only once with their actions to get the point across...


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

@GreenOrb, do you know what your wifes sexual turn ons are? you have an idea about the dominance thing, but have you seen anything that turns her on? if so, what was it?

it is key information that you need. if sex becomes something that can excite her and free her mind of stress, she will WANT it... a lot. 
you cant provide that if you don't know what turns her on.


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

As'laDain said:


> there is a way to ask your spouse what turns her on without it being a turn off. basically, never ask if what YOU are doing is turning her on.
> 
> the easiest way is to have them show you what kind of porn they watch, or have them pick out porn. watch and see what elements are involved. if they dont watch porn, maybe they read romance novels. pick one up and read, see what elements are involved. if she is open to telling you, then you could also just ask her what her sexual fantasies are, but she is just as likely to tell you she has none. unless she is actually turned on a bit. it has been my experience that women have a hard time explaining it if they do not frequently think about it.
> 
> another way is to tell her to masturbate while fantasizing out loud. tell them that what you want to see is them losing their **** as they get lost in the fantasy. tell them that you want to hear them say it out loud, hear the quiver in their voice as they get so turned on that it overtakes them.


Thanks, I'll put this to use.

However it be may worth mentioning that G2 has claimed in the past that she virtually never masturbates. She finds it awkward talking about sex, so she may of course be lying. But as far as I'm aware she only has one sex toy, a small vibrator/dildo that was given to her about 14 years ago by a friend. It lives in one of her drawers and I check if it has moved every now and again. About 4 years ago it appeared the battery had been changed, but since then I have not seen it move 1mm. Unless she has a hidden stash of dildos somewhere else, or just uses her fingers.

I'm also not aware of any porn she watches. She doesn't even know private surfing exists on an iPad.

The only thing she does do is read some romantic novels.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

GreenOrb said:


> The only thing she does do is read some romantic novels.


which ones, and how often does she read them?


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

As'laDain said:


> which ones, and how often does she read them?


I'll have to check later what she has read recently. But the kinds of characters she tends to lust after are broody, self-assured types in romantic settings, eg, Darcy from Pride & Prejudice.

She normally reads every night before sleep.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

every night? you need to crack those books open and see what is in them...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

If my partner did that to me - I would stop smile and say: Do you really think I’m ok with the idea of doing this TO YOU, as opposed to WITH YOU?





As'laDain said:


> the issue is that a lot of people dont do that. they just suck it up, dont say anything, and let resentment build. which is why they end up in unhealthy relationships.
> 
> there is no need to tell someone who gets it that they should not be a doormat. those people go on to form healthy relationships naturally. but for those who do not, they have to think of it as a strategy because it is NOT what comes naturally to them. it is foreign concept.
> 
> just look at what green orb said a while ago... he had one instance of really terrible sex. but, it was sex, so he will take it. it is a terrible way to view it.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

A daily summary of:
1. what you are doing that is dominant
2. what you think is going wrong (if anything)

will likely help you

You need to think about how to provoke her. 

She asks you to do something and you shake your head (indicating no) while saying: I’m sorry but your marital checking account is currently overdrawn. Deposits must be made before further withdrawals will be possible. 

But there is no giving in. This is playful edge. She complies or - she gets less help from you. She punched you in the stomach. She is practically begging for more edge. 

Defy - overpower - mate. 






GreenOrb said:


> How much detail do you want? I can post up our day to day interactions?


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

MEM2020 said:


> If my partner did that to me - I would stop smile and say: Do you really think I’m ok with the idea of doing this TO YOU, as opposed to WITH YOU?


im a bit more harsh. Aki once told me to hurry up and get it over with... 

just killed it for me. she got upset when i walked out and told her that, at that point, i probably wouldn't be able to get it up for her even if i wanted to. it was the truth. instead i put headphones in and went for a run.

i don't think she ever said that again...


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

As'laDain said:


> im a bit more harsh. Aki once told me to hurry up and get it over with...
> 
> just killed it for me. she got upset when i walked out and told her that, at that point, i probably wouldn't be able to get it up for her even if i wanted to. it was the truth. instead i put headphones in and went for a run.
> 
> i don't think she ever said that again...


F2 pulled this on me a few times.

The last time she did it, I got off of her and told her I was not interested in sex with someone who was clearly not interested in having sex with me. She was horrified, hurt, and subsequently angry. Funny, that. 

She has never done it again.

GO, why do you fear escalation?


----------



## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

As'laDain said:


> im a bit more harsh. Aki once told me to hurry up and get it over with...
> 
> just killed it for me. she got upset when i walked out and told her that, at that point, i probably wouldn't be able to get it up for her even if i wanted to. it was the truth. instead i put headphones in and went for a run.
> 
> i don't think she ever said that again...





farsidejunky said:


> F2 pulled this on me a few times.
> 
> The last time she did it, I got off of her and told her I was not interested in sex with someone who was clearly not interested in having sex with me. She was horrified, hurt, and subsequently angry. Funny, that.
> 
> ...


Nothing gets a woman's attention faster than pulling out and walking away.

When they figure out that your self respect is worth more to you than some vagina, it almost always changes their worldview.


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

farsidejunky said:


> F2 pulled this on me a few times.
> 
> The last time she did it, I got off of her and told her I was not interested in sex with someone who was clearly not interested in having sex with me. She was horrified, hurt, and subsequently angry. Funny, that.
> 
> ...




Fundamentally I’ve always been slightly wary of upsetting my wife. She can be quite moody at times and will often swing from being quite happy to like a royal ***** in a short space of time. I think this stems from being an anxious person. Minor stresses at work for example can cause her to worry a lot and I think there may be some history in the family.

She is also several years older than me and when we met she was superior to me in our place of work. She is fiercely independent - she already had her own place when we met and I didn’t overtake her in earning power until we had kids. Even now she doesn’t like taking money from me to go shopping and would rather spend her own money, even when I try and explain that it’s all the same since we’re married.

So all in all from the start there has been a dynamic of her being in charge and me not wanting to rock the boat.

I’ll post up some daily interactions later.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

As Mem has pointed out, she is challenging you. She wants you to step up...to be in charge...and she likely struggles to respect you because you don't or won't. 

But here is the rub...or the more pertinent question:

It is not whether you can be that guy, but rather, do you DESIRE to be that guy?

Mem and Asla are both intimately familiar with my story. I tried being that guy for about 15 months. Then I found out I didn't really want to be that guy. I kept certain aspects of him, such as never giving a partner more than what a partner is willing to give me. But ultimately, I simply don't desire to be dominant. 

You need to drill this down, GO, because right now you are being both submissive and carrying yourself like you have no self respect. This is something that will rear it's ugly head in your next relationship as well, should you choose to leave your wife...I promise you.

Of submissiveness and self respect, the former is something that can be worked with in certain relationships and the right woman.

But the latter? No woman wants a man (for marriage or for ravaging her) that does not respect himself. Respect for oneself includes drawing a hard line on what one will tolerate.

It is time to stop being a boy, GO, and start being a man. Respecting yourself is where you start.


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

farsidejunky said:


> As Mem has pointed out, she is challenging you. She wants you to step up...to be in charge...and she likely struggles to respect you because you don't or won't.
> 
> But here is the rub...or the more pertinent question:
> 
> ...




Most people who know me would probably describe me as a nice laid back guy. So whether I can be dominant yet I’m not entirely sure. I consider G2 to have a fairly strong personality so I don’t think it will be easy.

Out of interest what have I said so far that makes you think I don’t respect myself? I assume taking sex from G2 even when it was lousy? Anything else?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

I will answer that question when you stop referring to what others think about you, and instead discuss what you are thinking about you. 

If you measure yourself based on how others view you, you will have an incredibly fragile ego.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Another 300 post thread without root cause analysis... Maybe I should ask my intern to create a Python program to auto respond here in TAM.

You're with someone who has made it clear that they don't care. You can take my approach and waste a few years or you can play the pop psychology book game or waste a few years running triathlons because all that worked for others. 

It appears Mrs Orb has reached her steady state. You can talk, destabilize, threaten, ignore, etc. But it won't tell you what her end game is or why. 

You focus way too much on physical sex and a lot less on being connected. What killed my marriage wasn't sex, it was simply not communicating. 

A good marriage is more than the sum of its parts. Try to figure out what your parts are, what her parts are, who benefits from the current status quo, and who benefits from scenarios A, B, or C.

Above all, be yourself. Not what she wants you to be, not what some ideation of the well laid guy is, but you.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This type of post is like gold. It is clear, concise, perceptive, completely honest and unfiltered. 





GreenOrb said:


> Fundamentally I’ve always been slightly wary of upsetting my wife. She can be quite moody at times and will often swing from being quite happy to like a royal ***** in a short space of time. I think this stems from being an anxious person. Minor stresses at work for example can cause her to worry a lot and I think there may be some history in the family.
> 
> She is also several years older than me and when we met she was superior to me in our place of work. She is fiercely independent - she already had her own place when we met and I didn’t overtake her in earning power until we had kids. Even now she doesn’t like taking money from me to go shopping and would rather spend her own money, even when I try and explain that it’s all the same since we’re married.
> 
> ...


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

john117 said:


> Another 300 post thread without root cause analysis... Maybe I should ask my intern to create a Python program to auto respond here in TAM.
> 
> You're with someone who has made it clear that they don't care. You can take my approach and waste a few years or you can play the pop psychology book game or waste a few years running triathlons because all that worked for others.
> 
> ...


Her end game doesn't matter if GO decides to take all necessary steps to ensure he's respecting himself. This requires that he stop lying to himself about what is and is not acceptable, and then enforcing such in his life.

Then she can choose to participate... or not.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

GO, I'm going to add one more thing. This is also a message to those folks who say that some of the methods suggested here are tit for tat. 

This quote is how I measure the status of my relationship with my wife, and it concisely sums up self respect in a way I never could.

"Never make someone a priority when all you are to them is an option."

-Maya Angelou

I would even go so far as to print it and tape it to your bathroom mirror. Read it every day.

Your approach should be something like this:

"Wife, when you're ready to make my needs a priority in the same way that you expect me to do for you, let me know. Until then, I will be pursuing things that will make me happy in the absence of affection from you."


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> Her end game doesn't matter if GO decides to take all necessary steps to ensure he's respecting himself. This requires that he stop lying to himself about what is and is not acceptable, and then enforcing such in his life.
> 
> Then she can choose to participate... or not.


Au contraire, it's all about the end game.

His and hers.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

john117 said:


> Au contraire, it's all about the end game.
> 
> His and hers.


When he starts respecting himself, only his will matter.

Then he will realize it is more important to love himself then to continue in a relationship with somebody who doesn't do things that cause him to feel loved.

Funny, that...it sounds an awful lot like what you have already done.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

farsidejunky said:


> As Mem has pointed out, she is challenging you. She wants you to step up...to be in charge...and she likely struggles to respect you because you don't or won't.
> 
> But here is the rub...or the more pertinent question:
> 
> ...


Damn Far, knocking it out of the park again.

I have read your story, but it's been a while.

Here's the other side of that question though, and this is not directed really at you but to GO.

Even if you are capable and willing to become that more dominant man, are they worthy and inspiring of that change?

Becoming a more dominant man for your spouse does not live in a vacuum. You have to want to change, but your spouse has to also be worthy of that change.

And that my friends is also an aspect of self respect.

"Never make someone a priority when all you are to them is an option." -Maya Angelou

This also ties into why become a more dominant man when the spouse is not really worthy of the change.

I 100% agree with Far, worry about respecting yourself first, then do some deep thinking to determine whether your spouse is worthy of the dominate man.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Windwalker said:


> Even if you are capable and willing to become that more dominant man, are they worthy and inspiring of that change?
> 
> Becoming a more dominant man for your spouse does not live in a vacuum. You have to want to change, but your spouse has to also be worthy of that change.
> 
> ...


He married her, so I would think, yes - she is worthy of change. 

Someone mentioned whether or not GO _wants_ to change, and I think that's more of a starting point than his spouse's worthiness.

My ex-husband was never going to be a dominant man. That's just not who he is. And as someone pointed out elsewhere, I chose him, and that decision was on me. _He was worthy_ of finding a compromise, but he was 100% _unwilling_. And that's what ultimately led to our divorce.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

minimalME said:


> He married her, so I would think, yes - she is worthy of change.
> 
> Someone mentioned whether or not GO _wants_ to change, and I think that's more of a starting point than his spouse's worthiness.
> 
> My ex-husband was never going to be a dominant man. That's just not who he is. And as someone pointed out elsewhere, I chose him, and that decision was on me. _He was worthy_ of finding a compromise, but he was 100% _unwilling_. And that's what ultimately led to our divorce.


I'm going to respectfully disagree.

Compromise and changing yourself to be a dominate man are not one in the same. Being worthy of compromise and being worthy of full scale change are generally mutually exclusive. 

That you married a spouse and that they were worthy of the change at one point does not mean that they will always remain worthy of that change.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Windwalker said:


> I'm going to respectfully disagree.
> 
> Compromise and changing yourself to be a dominate man are not one in the same. Being worthy of compromise and being worthy of full scale change are generally mutually exclusive.
> 
> That you married a spouse and that they were worthy of the change at one point does not mean that they will always remain worthy of that change.


That's true - that people don't always remain worthy of change. My ex-husband was. He was a good man in many ways.

But compromise is change, and change often denotes compromise. Sometimes small, sometimes significant. And people are very open to either/both when it suits them.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

minimalME said:


> That's true - that's people don't always remain worthy of change. My ex-husband was. He was a good man in many ways.
> 
> But compromise is change, and change often denotes compromise. Sometimes small, sometimes significant. And people are very open to either/both when it suits them.


I can't argue with any of that.

Change does not mean he becomes a more dominate man though. I personally think self respect is far more important at this stage of his journey.

Self respect is a VERY important part of dominance, and without it, all you have is a facade. As GO describes his wife, she will see right through it.

True dominance is not a fake it till you make it. You may be able to fake certain aspects, but not the whole package.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Windwalker said:


> I can't argue with any of that.
> 
> Change does not mean he becomes a more dominate man though. I personally think self respect is far more important at this stage of his journey.
> 
> ...


Well, he's not currently a dominate man, so if he makes an effort to move towards that behavior, he's changing. 

But I agree - his self-respect is very important.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

minimalME said:


> Well, he's not currently a dominate man, so if he makes an effort to move towards that behavior, he's changing.
> 
> But I agree - his self-respect is very important.


Lol.:grin2:
I will concede that point.
I'll just say that a man with little self respect is of little use to himself let alone anyone else.

I understand where you are coming from and I understand that it colors your responses. Mine does as well, as I think everyone's does.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

There is a difference between demanding respect and commanding respect.

"A person that commands respect is a person that is so worthy of respect that everyone just automatically respects them. Think about the people you know that fit this description. ... People that command respect are icons. They are lighthouses in a stormy sea. People that demand respect are chock-a-block."

For the sake of this OP and for others reading this - lets talk about what a person is like who commands respect.

And as a side note - I personally don't care much for the term dominate because of the picture it brings to mind of someone having control over another person. For me - as a woman - I don't want a man to have control over me, but rather i am attracted to men that are confident, have control over themselves, and are able to take control of situations when they should and know when not take control of them when they shouldn't. They do not dominate - instead they LEAD with confidence, love, concern, and respect. They set up boundaries of what they will and will not tolerate as far as how others treat them.- and enforce those boundaries with strict and effective consequences. They understand the power of earned rewarda and offer deserved praise and compliments often. They are not fake, what you see is what you get. What they say - they mean. They lead - but they are also someone who others WANT to go along with. 

So really, in my mind we should not be talking about exerting dominance but rather we should be talking about about developing into a person that will act in a way that draws respect and/or attraction from their spouse instead of resentment and/or irritation or even worse indifference.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> When he starts respecting himself, only his will matter.
> 
> Then he will realize it is more important to love himself then to continue in a relationship with somebody who doesn't do things that cause him to feel loved.
> 
> Funny, that...it sounds an awful lot like what you have already done.


Agreed to some extent.

But...

We know what his end game is. He wants to improve intimacy, and is interested in trying A, B, C.

He does NOT know what HER end game is. 

- She could be along for the ride, eating the cake all the way.
- She could simply not want sex, being a few years older. Not unheard of.
- She could be preparing HIM for ABC sex, anniversary, birthday, and Christmas. 
- She could be resentful
- Skeletons in the closet perhaps?
- She could be preparing for her own exit and looking to give him a reason

Y'all have an alarmingly simple model of human behavior in mind. The fact that she's so good in "resistive desire" is pretty much the flare gun telling him it's not your routine "I put 10 lb and I'm a Nice Guy " case.

As part of the end game he should know what financial outcomes look like. If she more or less wants out and stands to gain from the divorce, what do you make of it?

Focusing on himself is great. It helped me untangle my mind after 3+ decades. 3 months into the separation I really have no qualms about it. We had 25 good years, 10 crappy, 2 awesome kids, and a ton of money. Quit while we're both ahead.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

So - OP - when you accept pity or duty sex from your wife - what image do you portray to her - a confident man that she respects and is attracted to - or a man that she looks down on with irritation and/or indifference?


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Windwalker said:


> Damn Far, knocking it out of the park again.
> 
> I have read your story, but it's been a while.
> 
> ...


i agree. 

to be fair though, i wouldnt have said that Akinaura was worth becoming dominant for back in our earliest days, and im sure she would say i was not worth becoming submissive for. 

which kinda goes right along with what @farsidejunky said. for us, i had to learn to enforce boundaries and demonstrate self respect before anything else could even start.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Windwalker said:


> I can't argue with any of that.
> 
> Change does not mean he becomes a more dominate man though. I personally think self respect is far more important at this stage of his journey.
> 
> ...


true dominance is an illusion, a mere description. self respect is a philosophy. 

i see true dominance as never being a real thing. it is an illusion because it does not exist within the self. someone who calls himself a "dominant man" to whom nobody is wiling to submit is obviously delusional, no? 

in part, this is why the dynamic can seem so powerful. and at the same time so fragile. it requires those in the dominant position to _convince_ the submissive that it is in their best interest to submit to them. for it to be anything but ephemeral, the dominant party has to continuously convince them of this. the second they can no longer convince them that its in their best interest to submit, their dominance evaporates. to be able to continuously convince someone of this is not an easy thing. it requires constant attention. constant cultivating. constant benefits for submission. it goes back to that old truth of leadership: the way to get people to follow you is to show them that you know better than them and that you care about them. if you can convince anyone of this, they will follow you through hell without ever questioning it.

self respect, however... well, that philosophy can be carried and applied with or without other people involved. it is a decision that a person makes for themselves without needing the consent or cooperation of anyone else.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

John,
All of the scenarios you attribute to his wife are negative and assume he is blameless. 

I’m not shocked that you - the guy who assigns 99% of the blame for his divorce - is unable to see the ‘root causes’ to this situation. 

I find them quite obvious as Orb has laid out what happened fairly clearly in his thread. And he is at least 50% responsible for the current situation. 





john117 said:


> Agreed to some extent.
> 
> But...
> 
> ...


----------



## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

As'laDain said:


> true dominance is an illusion, a mere description. self respect is a philosophy.
> 
> i see true dominance as never being a real thing. it is an illusion because it does not exist within the self. someone who calls himself a "dominant man" to whom nobody is wiling to submit is obviously delusional, no?
> 
> ...


You will never hear me argue against any of that.
I agree 1000%

Hence why I said that self respect is the most important aspect.

Personally I think there is way to much emphasis put on dominance and or d/s mumbo jumbo.

Leadership, however is a a different story, and you have to be able to lead yourself first before you can ever hope to lead another person.

ETA: People talk about dominance and all that, but dominance primarily involves mastery of one's self, and the foundation to mastery of one's self is self respect.


----------



## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Windwalker said:


> You will never hear me argue against any of that.
> I agree 1000%
> 
> Hence why I said that self respect is the most important aspect.
> ...


yep. its the biggest reason i havent really focused on green orb needing to improve his dominance game. his wife will see right through it and it will look pretty pathetic if he does not employ self respect. the first step is getting his wife to take him seriously instead of laughing him off. 

that takes self respect, boundaries, consequences for bad behavior, etc.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

As'laDain said:


> yep. its the biggest reason i havent really focused on green orb needing to improve his dominance game. his wife will see right through it and it will look pretty pathetic if he does not employ self respect. the first step is getting his wife to take him seriously instead of laughing him off.
> 
> that takes self respect, boundaries, consequences for bad behavior, etc.


Agreed. 

The part that makes me chuckle is the rash of **** you have received over the consequences for bad behavior part. Aka - tit for tat.


----------



## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

As'laDain said:


> true dominance is an illusion, a mere description. self respect is a philosophy.
> 
> i see true dominance as never being a real thing. it is an illusion because it does not exist within the self. someone who calls himself a "dominant man" to whom nobody is wiling to submit is obviously delusional, no?
> 
> ...


Bingo - we have a winner! lol I am glad to see someone gets this concept.


----------



## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Windwalker said:


> Agreed.
> 
> The part that makes me chuckle is the rash of **** you have received over the consequences for bad behavior part. Aka - tit for tat.


not just consequences for bad behavior... lol, i also catch a lot of **** for suggesting that someone should reward good behavior. like its somehow bad to be aware of what i am doing rather than just doing it because it "feels right".

whats funny is that in real life, nearly everyone i have ever met has said that i am one of the most compassionate and fair people they have ever come across. usually after i eventually tell them that i consciously employ a tit for tat strategy in all of my relationships.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

mary35 said:


> Bingo - we have a winner! lol I am glad to see someone gets this concept.


lol, i sure hope so. otherwise my D/s relationship with my wife is bound for a train wreck some day.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

As'laDain said:


> not just consequences for bad behavior... lol, i also catch a lot of **** for suggesting that someone should reward good behavior. like its somehow bad to be aware of what i am doing rather than just doing it because it "feels right".
> 
> whats funny is that in real life, nearly everyone i have ever met has said that i am one of the most compassionate and fair people they have ever come across. usually after i eventually tell them that i consciously employ a tit for tat strategy in all of my relationships.


Reciprocal behavior.

It's not a hard concept to understand.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> John,
> All of the scenarios you attribute to his wife are negative and assume he is blameless.
> 
> I’m not shocked that you - the guy who assigns 99% of the blame for his divorce - is unable to see the ‘root causes’ to this situation.
> ...


I'm simply laying out possible scenarios for her end game. It could be that she's an alien from Alpha Centauri 7 and they don't have sex there, but it's unlikely.

When someone visits a therapist, why do you think it takes months to untangle the past, and plan for the future? Because the human mind is generally speaking hell bent on seeing what it wants to see. Otherwise therapy would be as simple as a GM Mr Goodwrench diagnostic flowchart and about as short.

If Mr Orb keeps seeing his wife as the loving partner who said "I do" 20 years ago, then carry on. The whole point of detachment is to see things more objectively. Not to lose weight, not to make one more appealing to the chicks, but to objectively assess the situation and formulate a response.


----------



## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

john117 said:


> I'm simply laying out possible scenarios for her end game. It could be that she's an alien from Alpha Centauri 7 and they don't have sex there, but it's unlikely.
> 
> When someone visits a therapist, why do you think it takes months to untangle the past, and plan for the future? *Because the human mind is generally speaking hell bent on seeing what it wants to see*. Otherwise therapy would be as simple as a GM Mr Goodwrench diagnostic flowchart and about as short.
> 
> If Mr Orb keeps seeing his wife as the loving partner who said "I do" 20 years ago, then carry on. The whole point of detachment is to see things more objectively. Not to lose weight, not to make one more appealing to the chicks, but to objectively assess the situation and formulate a response.


would that explain why, in pretty much every case involving any conflict or mental illness, you are so adamant that nothing can be done? 

you know, the whole 95% effort for 5% gain numbers that you like to throw out in regards to actually TRYING some of the advice given on TAM?


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

As'laDain said:


> would that explain why, in pretty much every case involving any conflict or mental illness, you are so adamant that nothing can be done?
> 
> you know, the whole 95% effort for 5% gain numbers that you like to throw out in regards to actually TRYING some of the advice given on TAM?


The 95/5 part is nothing more than basic reward seeking / risk averse behavioral programming we all have. 

Nothing can be done in terms of what? Fixing mental illness? Some are fixable, many are not. Fixing low sex? Let's see, put your A game on 24/7 and go from 8 to 12 times in a year? 

Holy cow, that's the same answer that gets posted in here month after month. 

Human behavior changes only when there's more reward than risk associated with it. In Mrs Orb case, it's rather clear that she does not believe there's risk associated with 8 times a year. Not much reward either. Why not go for 12? Because the risk that he'll ask for 16 or 24 a year, and from there the sky's the limit. And no more rewards than at 8 times a year.

No mental illness involved, just cold calculation. I know it sucks to think this cold but hey, someone has to do it.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I try to differentiate between strength and power. 

Strength is solely about yourself. Power is gauged by your ability to influence/control others. 

Strength INCLUDES the ability to prevent someone else from mistreating you. 

Orb - allowing himself to have sex with his wife when she is clearly and intentionally radiating an unenthusiastic vibe - is weakness. He is trading an orgasm for self respect. 





As'laDain said:


> yep. its the biggest reason i havent really focused on green orb needing to improve his dominance game. his wife will see right through it and it will look pretty pathetic if he does not employ self respect. the first step is getting his wife to take him seriously instead of laughing him off.
> 
> that takes self respect, boundaries, consequences for bad behavior, etc.


----------



## Akinaura (Dec 6, 2011)

john117 said:


> Let's see, put your A game on 24/7 and go from 8 to 12 times in a year?


Um, Asla has put his A game on and went from 8-12 times a year to several hundred times a year. And that's with a wife who has 3 co-morbid mental health issues.

But then again, Asla actually tried...he refused the status quo and was okay with upsetting the current situation.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Seems this is simply your standard template which is: The LD person is either selfish, crazy or both





john117 said:


> I'm simply laying out possible scenarios for her end game. It could be that she's an alien from Alpha Centauri 7 and they don't have sex there, but it's unlikely.
> 
> When someone visits a therapist, why do you think it takes months to untangle the past, and plan for the future? Because the human mind is generally speaking hell bent on seeing what it wants to see. Otherwise therapy would be as simple as a GM Mr Goodwrench diagnostic flowchart and about as short.
> 
> If Mr Orb keeps seeing his wife as the loving partner who said "I do" 20 years ago, then carry on. The whole point of detachment is to see things more objectively. Not to lose weight, not to make one more appealing to the chicks, but to objectively assess the situation and formulate a response.


----------



## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

john117 said:


> The 95/5 part is nothing more than basic reward seeking / risk averse behavioral programming we all have.
> 
> Nothing can be done in terms of what? Fixing mental illness? Some are fixable, many are not. Fixing low sex?* Let's see, put your A game on 24/7 and go from 8 to 12 times in a year? *
> 
> ...


you are a numbers guy. you realize your numbers are bull ****, right?


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This is straight up good stuff except that - where sex is concerned - it is a bit too high minded. 

The punch is a type of sub ‘brat’ move. She is cueing him. If he wants heat he needs to bring edge. 




mary35 said:


> There is a difference between demanding respect and commanding respect.
> 
> "A person that commands respect is a person that is so worthy of respect that everyone just automatically respects them. Think about the people you know that fit this description. ... People that command respect are icons. They are lighthouses in a stormy sea. People that demand respect are chock-a-block."
> 
> ...


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Akinaura said:


> Um, Asla has put his A game on and went from 8-12 times a year to several hundred times a year. And that's with a wife who has 3 co-morbid mental health issues.
> 
> But then again, Asla actually tried...he refused the status quo and was okay with upsetting the current situation.


Awesome. Let him write a book about it. If it sells we'll reconsider.

Under your logic, every psychology graduate should go into product design, earn a doctorate, write patents, and live comfortably designing buttons and screens. After all, it worked for me. 

I know you know this, but it doesn't work like that. All the case studies we see here have a few common patterns but for the most part they're unique. Every last one. 

This isn't medicine where treating symptoms works. You need to understand what you're dealing with. How? Lots of options, observation, and good old objective thinking.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

As'laDain said:


> you are a numbers guy. you realize your numbers are bull ****, right?


Are they?

Please elaborate. I know my posting doesn't fit your narrative but I'm curious.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

john117 said:


> Are they?
> 
> Please elaborate. I know my posting doesn't fit your narrative but I'm curious.


as in, your pulling them out of a bulls ass. or maybe your own. 

the starting point... not BS. where it goes from there, well, very much BS. you are making those numbers up in order to fit your own take on it. but anyone who has successfully turned their marriage around dont report the numbers you make up. and they typically employed methods and perspectives that you categorically reject. 

its not even a SWAG. just totally made up. fiction. fantasy. 

do i need to elaborate more?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

In other words, you don't know.

He quoted 8x a year. Let's say he puts in significant effort and they double the frequency temporarily. To 16x a year. That's 1x a month and special occasions. And I'm being optimistic here. What would your estimate be?

I presume you object to my estimate of improvement. Somehow, you think that improving oneself will instantly move him to Mick Jagger status with the ladies. 

I wish I could share your optimism, but it's all a matter of probabilities. Yea, he could become the next Mick and party for days on end. But, that's not how humans work. 

The suggestions made generally work if he and she are in the same calendar units. He wants 4x a week, she wants 2x a week, improve... A game... Compromise to 3x a week. Lived happily ever after. 

At 8x a year, over a decade, we're talking some pretty deep issues that aren't going to be swayed by Jedi mind games and biceps. The time for that was years ago. 

Understanding what is going on will tell him what to do next.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

First thing to do is to find out what does she want from the marriage. What does he want, too. (The end game).

Then, together, see if there is a path, and if there is, what will it take to get there. 

The rest is voodoo doll therapy. Sticking pins hoping it will work.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

john117 said:


> In other words, you don't know.
> 
> He quoted 8x a year. *Let's say he puts in significant effort and they double the frequency temporarily. To 16x a year. That's 1x a month and special occasions. And I'm being optimistic here. What would your estimate be?*


see, there you go making up a low number to support your argument again. OH, but you are being optimistic! 
my estimate would be somewhere around what the HD person wants. in my case, two or three times a day when i am home.



> I presume you object to my estimate of improvement. *Somehow, you think that improving oneself will instantly move him to Mick Jagger status with the ladies.
> *


 you know, acknowledging my objection and then discrediting it with a presumption that you make up on the spot only shows your own inability to argue the actual point i am trying to make. to clarify, in case you are wondering, i have never said anything would be instant.



> I wish I could share your optimism, but it's all a matter of probabilities. Yea, he could become the next Mick and party for days on end. But, that's not how humans work.


apparently it is, or i wouldn't be here saying so. of course, we could be aliens from xenon... doubt it though.



> The suggestions made generally work if he and she are in the same calendar units. He wants 4x a week, she wants 2x a week, improve... A game... Compromise to 3x a week. Lived happily ever after.


or, it may also work if he wants it several times a day and she wants once a month or two. or never. improve, A game... etc. 



> At 8x a year, over a decade, we're talking some pretty deep issues that aren't going to be swayed by Jedi mind games and biceps. The time for that was years ago.
> 
> Understanding what is going on will tell him what to do next.


oh look at that! you dont have an actual logical argument against him trying it so you are going to dismiss it all as jedi mind tricks. cute!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Awesome. 

You've been here for a while. As have I. We've read the same threads from the same people.

How many case studies have you seen that were closer to your numbers (from 8x a year to 2x a day)? How many can you recall that are closer to my number? How many can you recall that despite the A game got nowhere? 

If your personal case is #1, congrats and all that, but it takes a huge leap of faith to map your experience with theirs. All I ask is that you're cognizant of the long odds of anyone else duplicating your outcome without a very close match in demographics, socioeconomic conditions, cultures involved, and corresponding states of mind.

What you describe is one of the most common - and sometimes inaccurate - heuristics the mind uses to make decisions. It's called the availability heuristic. You think of a problem that on the surface matches another problem. Therefore the same solution will work! Throw in some personal bias and you got it made. 

I'm just as guilty, incidentally. From the other side of the spectrum. My 95/5 rule assumes no intrinsic value in the marriage itself, only its components or characteristics. The fact that I (and s-wife) walked away from 35 years together without thinking too much about it or suffering ill effects should tell you something.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

john117 said:


> Awesome.
> 
> You've been here for a while. As have I. We've read the same threads from the same people.
> 
> ...


oh, i am cognizant of the odds against it. and we DID come from different socioeconomic backgrounds. i grew up poor white trash in a liberal military hating town in florida, my wife grew up upper middle class in a very conservative town in NC. she was suffering from three mental illnesses, and i was just your every day ass hole until i suffered a near death experience.

but, what I see, and what you seem to ignore, is that my own approach to the issue was NOT among typical standard advice. if it were, do you really think i would get so many people balking at it and putting words into my mouth? if my results for my given situation were so unusual, then wouldn't you expect my advice to be pretty unusual? and yet, so many people we see coming through these boards cant seem to implement the very first step, which is to simply enforce boundaries and portray self respect. 

but if you really want numbers, then why don't you ask the other people here who have also been trying to get him to show some self respect? some dominance? im certainly not the only person who sees something there. we all typically use different words, different descriptions, but the overall theme is the same. why do you think it works for so many people? even with people who are married to women with mental illnesses? 

and why is it that you feel so compelled to advise someone against trying to change a situation for their benefit? is it because you failed at it yourself? if memory serves, you have always dismissed any advice to do anything different than what you have always done. no matter what the advice was, you dismissed it out of hand. why do you think it is that so many other people see something that you cant seem to see?

where is @DayOne... he went from a different starting point, but im willing to bet he would spot the underlying issue as well...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I agree that the duration combined with the size of the disconnect makes this a very difficult challenge. 

But at some level john - your rather raw competitiveness makes me wonder if you are rooting against these folks. I think the idea of others succeeding where you didn’t - doesn’t sit easily with you. 



john117 said:


> In other words, you don't know.
> 
> He quoted 8x a year. Let's say he puts in significant effort and they double the frequency temporarily. To 16x a year. That's 1x a month and special occasions. And I'm being optimistic here. What would your estimate be?
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Very insightful. Isn’t being unhappy for a decade an ill effect? 




john117 said:


> Awesome.
> 
> You've been here for a while. As have I. We've read the same threads from the same people.
> 
> ...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Let me be very blunt.... Apologies in advance.

Anyone who needs to be told fairly basic things, like establish boundaries or some such, has very little chance of making much progress. This is basic stuff. Some ancient philosophy dude said "know thyself". 

The second part is to be able to recognize general behavior patterns and adjust. This is a fundamental human ability. Do you need to be told that if things are going X, X, X that somehow they'll switch to X, X, Y? Nope.

Respect? This is assumed. When I hire some green kid out of college I have certain expectations. Are there true doormat people left on Earth? 

Dominance ? Have you tried dominance on a professional woman who has seen everything and makes more money than she can count? This ain't Game of Thrones. This ain't cougar p0rn with the plumber. But I digress. It's worth a try for all of 5 minutes

Do you (y'all) ask what did she see in the guy 20 years ago? Or does he already have these qualities? By whose standards? I have long hair and drive a Mini Cooper at 58. Whom do I respect? I've made it. IDGAF.

Self respect and dominance and all that are good for rah rah moments in high school football movies. Adults have those in some minimum capacity or another. We aren't talking NASA astronaut selection here.

Y'all are too quick to assess human behavior and conjure causes and effects. It's a lot harder than that. An awfully lot harder. 

Root cause analysis would be called a diagnosis by my clinician classmates. Know what you are dealing with. I don't object to self improvement, but make sure you understand how it all works. 

Here you have someone who is out right averse to intimacy. Not 'responsive', not 'spontaneous', but outright averse. And somehow puffing the chest and talking in a superhero voice will fix it?

It's all about choices. If he's in his early 40s he has choices. My fireworks started at 48-49. And initially I thought that if I could just stop A, B, and C and do X, Y, and Z things would improve. Lolz. Wasted a few years improving my self taught clinician skills I suppose. 

Like Mr. Orb, I got the same suggestions. Improve your self respect (which is already too high to begin with). Dress better (LoL). Lose weight (I did - didn't help). Screw that. 

What worked for me - no thanks to tam I might say - was a simple ultimatum knowing that neither of us had much to gain or lose either way. At the end fate helped us along a bit. 

Bottom line: 

0. If you need to fix basic behaviors, then you're at the wrong place.
1. Know what you're dealing with, your side and hers
2. Know what your end game and hers are
3. Find a path or pull the cord.
4. Implement #3

Reading TAM takes you straight to #4. Not my cuppa.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> I try to differentiate between strength and power.
> 
> Strength is solely about yourself. Power is gauged by your ability to influence/control others.
> 
> ...


QFT.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

John,

Do you accept anger is a secondary emotion? A response to either pain or fear? 





john117 said:


> Let me be very blunt.... Apologies in advance.
> 
> Anyone who needs to be told fairly basic things, like establish boundaries or some such, has very little chance of making much progress. This is basic stuff. Some ancient philosophy dude said "know thyself".
> 
> ...


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Anger is indeed considered a secondary emotion... Is it a legit response to pain or fear? Sometimes.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

MEM2020 said:


> This is straight up good stuff except that - where sex is concerned - it is a bit too high minded.
> 
> The punch is a type of sub ‘brat’ move. She is cueing him. If he wants heat he needs to bring edge.


Did you miss the part where I said "takes control over situations when he should"?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I did miss it. My bad. Thank you for pointing that out Mary. 




mary35 said:


> Did you miss the part where I said "takes control over situations when he should"?


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

MEM2020 said:


> I agree that the duration combined with the size of the disconnect makes this a very difficult challenge.
> 
> But at some level john - your rather raw competitiveness makes me wonder if you are rooting against these folks. I think the idea of others succeeding where you didn’t - doesn’t sit easily with you.


i was chatting with akinaura a while ago, and she pointed out something to me... 

i have told her before how i enjoy engaging john117 in debates, argument, whatever you call it. i have always found him fun to intellectually spar with. Akinaura finally looked over some of his older posts and got back to me. here is what she told me:

"john117 seems to think in almost exactly the same way you did when we first got married, before the rhabdo event". she had some words for describing me back then that i wont repeat here, but there you have it.

so that might explain why i find him so fascinating. 

>


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

It has been suggested somewhere in the last 40 or so posts that I don't have any self respect, so I thought I'd answer that one.

The straight forward answer is yes I do, but this is only a recent development and if you had asked me that 5 years ago (at which time I probably wasn't even self aware enough to answer) I would have said no.

Up until my mid 30s I was lazy and hadn't achieved anything in life aside from getting married and having kids. When I was young I was good at lots of things, and didn't have to work very hard to achieve good grades. Because of that and various other reasons I grew into an unmotivated adult who drifted into a career. My mother did almost everything for me into my early 20s, then of course I met G2 and to some degree she became my organiser after that.

Despite being smart I always had low self confidence, and would often value other people's opinions over my own. To some degree I think deep down I thought I didn't deserve any more sex given the person I was.

And so it stayed until 5-6 years ago when things started to change for me. My career started to take off, I found something I like doing which paid well, and I started to learn things about myself I had never even previously thought about. For example I only realised I was an introvert about 5 years ago when I took the test, although on the face of it it was blindingly obvious. Looking back it almost feels like I sleepwalked through my first 35 years of life.

But my career changed me, or perhaps woke me up to the value of hard work and actually putting my brain power to use. However all that took place a long way from home (my commute was 3-4 hours a day) so as I grew up as a person, G2 for a long time barely ever saw it. Then about 6 months ago I moved jobs and now work much closer to home. So while my career continues to progress well, I've also been able to spend more time at home being a far better husband and taking charge and organising things in our lives that normally G2 would always have done.

Today I'm responsible for a large number of people, and have a stake in the business I work for, so without self-respect and confidence in my opinions and abilities I'd be quickly found out. Even so I'm still not all of the way there yet, so I can understand why some people think I don't have any self respect when I took bad sex from G2.

For many years G2 has been used to basically being in charge in our household. Now this has changed and substantially altered the balance of our marriage. I'm far more confident, know what I want, and feel I deserve sex and to be loved in a stronger way than G2 has had to do in the past.

It was also asked if G2 was worth changing for. Right now the answer is yes. I love her, she is my best friend, and I still find her intensely attractive, which feels like a pretty good place to start. She has always worked her butt off and has done a lot for me and the kids down the years.

Regarding actual sex, G2 has been off colour so I postponed our night until next week, so not much to be said as yet. G2 is yet to see a more dominant me in the bedroom, so remains to be seen if this will increase her desire for it.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

> It was also asked if G2 was worth changing for. Right now the answer is yes. I love her, she is my best friend, and I still find her intensely attractive, which feels like a pretty good place to start.


I'll spare you the theory. Is the above mutual - beyond a reasonable doubt?


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

GreenOrb said:


> It has been suggested somewhere in the last 40 or so posts that I don't have any self respect, so I thought I'd answer that one.
> 
> The straight forward answer is yes I do, but this is only a recent development and if you had asked me that 5 years ago (at which time I probably wasn't even self aware enough to answer) I would have said no.
> 
> ...


I haven't responded to you directly GO.

Food for thought.
Self respect out in the public and workplace is far different than self respect with those closest to us and whom we love.

The latter causes to almost always second guess ourselves to keep from injuring those closest to us.

Ask me how I know that.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

john117 said:


> Let me be very blunt.... Apologies in advance.
> 
> Anyone who needs to be told fairly basic things, like establish boundaries or some such, has very little chance of making much progress. This is basic stuff. Some ancient philosophy dude said "know thyself".
> 
> ...




How do you know 2. Or 3. Except only with hindsight?
You will never know how strong human stubbornness is. You won’t know it in yourself how are you supposed to know and judge it about anyone else?
I get all the theories and tactics that are being presented here. They are all very interesting. However it’s impossible to give generic advice to one case as each case will be so individual and different. What worked for one couple may be completely contra indicative for another.

I only addressed the ‘dominant’ part as far as GreenOrb’s sex life was concerned. In terms of being dominant in everyday life: it is also possible his wife will not be able to deal well with a totally new dynamic and decides that it is too much and ‘weird’ for her and will want out of the marriage.
Or it is possible they will live happily ever after if he implements it. We just don’t know. We also don’t know what she may be needing from him that he may not be delivering so even if he starts ‘respecting himself’ like there is no tomorrow, she may feel like he’s just trying to push her away even more.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Windwalker said:


> I haven't responded to you directly GO.
> 
> Food for thought.
> Self respect out in the public and workplace is far different than self respect with those closest to us and whom we love.
> ...


QFT.

I was running half of an Army recruiting district from 2011-2013...and we were one of the best in the southeast. 

My marriage at that time? In shambles...because I was spending too much time trying to make her happy...at the expense my self respect.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

2 is end games. You ask. You OBSERVE. You run a few "test scenarios" here or there. Example: my retirement plan vs hers vs "our". Up to 2007 it was always a high-rise condo in Chicago or Boston or suburban Virginia near DC. Then, as our relationship started its downfall, hers became our current McMansion, which I'm not quite the biggest fan. That told me she has "other" plans. Indeed she was not willing to sacrifice "quality of life" for "life experience"... Next. After decades together not difficult to figure out.

3 is tougher, and assumes one knows what they are dealing with and are willing to do the work. It assumes they understand what's going on. Last summer I pretty much put on the table my last offer. Counseling and we reassess or bye. Counseling only reaffirmed the degree of our differences. That's why I focus so much on real causes.

I mean, self respect and all that stuff is useful, but you need to engage the other person. This ain't happening in vacuum. If I need to improve something, I'd rather be told in the face. By someone without a horse in the race. 

This is a journey for two people to discover themselves again, and each other again. Or, to discover they hate each other's guts and go their own ways.


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

john117 said:


> I'll spare you the theory. Is the above mutual - beyond a reasonable doubt?




What’s the theory? I find this stuff interesting.

I think it is mutual. G2 is very undemonstrative but told me recently she was nervous I would want out if we didn’t have more sex.

Something I haven’t mentioned yet. We broke up many years ago before we got married. For once I stood up for myself when G2 was very stressed at work and took it all out on me. I snapped and dumped her - we were apart for about 2 weeks but I realised I wanted to work it out and went back. I’ve always thought if she wasn’t that bothered she would have told me to forget it, but she seemed very happy when I came back, for a brief time the sex was pretty good again.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

Windwalker said:


> I haven't responded to you directly GO.
> 
> Food for thought.
> Self respect out in the public and workplace is far different than self respect with those closest to us and whom we love.
> ...




Soooo... how do you know that?


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

GreenOrb said:


> Soooo... how do you know that?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I ran multi-million dollar projects out in the field consisting of 10-20 men regularly, with some projects double that..

At home, I couldn't even get my wife to listen to a word I said on hardly anything. Mainly because I spent to many years making sure that I didn't rock the boat. I was always afraid to hurt her feelings.

Sex? Lol. Ha!

She went from a high drive woman before our children to an absolute no drive woman. And I do mean none! The depo shot absolutely killed any drive she had. It took me 5 years to figure out what the hell so going on. Multiple reasons for that. The kicker is it took me another 5 to convince her to go back to the doctor and have it changed.

She actually waited until I had enough and blew my top for good. It's a very long an convoluted story. We are still together, but our marriage will never be what it could. And to be honest, after all the crap, I don't care.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Duplicate post.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The above is a good example of what root cause analysis is. And isn't.

https://www.isixsigma.com/tools-templates/cause-effect/determine-root-cause-5-whys/

You identified the depo shot as causing the initial drop. Yet identification and mitigation didn't fix the whole issue, likely because she was getting too comfortable with the status quo and I suspect knew she would likely win out in a divorce settlement... Depo simply provided a good backdrop.

That's what I would infer from a single post... Meaning, as a minimum I would consider it a possibility instead of running with the first plausible explanation.

Mr. Orb, that's the theory talking... Theory being that what we want, what we say we want, and how we act to get it are all different.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

GreenOrb said:


> john117 said:
> 
> 
> > I'll spare you the theory. Is the above mutual - beyond a reasonable doubt?
> ...


That actually does not answer the question John asked mutuality. Nervous about you possibly wanting out does not mean she's into you and attracted to you, only that she is nervous about the marriage ending.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Livvie said:


> That actually does not answer the question John asked mutuality. Nervous about you possibly wanting out does not mean she's into you and attracted to you, only that she is nervous about the marriage ending.


Hence my insistence on end games.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

john117 said:


> The above is a good example of what root cause analysis is. And isn't.
> 
> https://www.isixsigma.com/tools-templates/cause-effect/determine-root-cause-5-whys/
> 
> ...


It did provide a good back drop. A big part of it was laziness on her part. She just simply didn't want to do it. I know this based on other things she has had resistance to both before and after the time spent on the depo shot. 

I can't say it was all the depo shot, but that is a *HORRIBLE* ****ing drug. It not only killed her drive, but turned her into a zombie of sorts. For many years I wondered what happened to the woman I married.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Q.E.D.

There's rarely a single cause for anything. It's usually unrelated things that collide.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Amen Livvie, The point you raise is the crux.

There is a vast difference between not wanting to get divorced - because it’s disruptive and scary and .....

It goes beyond actively WANTING to stay married to someone you really love. It goes to wanting them to be happy, this is different than wanting them to not leave you. 

Note in his story: she behaves very badly and he leaves for two weeks. But she doesn’t approach him to reconcile. He approaches her. That right there sums up their marriage. She might have been happy he returned, but wasn’t going to pursue him. 

This is called: passively being happy the other person loves you as opposed to actively loving them back. 






Livvie said:


> That actually does not answer the question John asked mutuality. Nervous about you possibly wanting out does not mean she's into you and attracted to you, only that she is nervous about the marriage ending.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> Amen Livvie, The point you raise is the crux.
> 
> There is a vast difference between not wanting to get divorced - because it’s disruptive and scary and .....
> 
> ...


And we also know who's more invested in the marriage.

I see way to many folks can and make statements about how they keep doing all these things for their spouse, but yet get zilch in return. To take a step back and actually look at whom is more deeply invested in the marriage more is very hard for some people. To top everything off, once they have made a determination, it doesn't mean they will do anything. How many times have we heard a poster say that divorce is off the table within the first paragraph? It really is true that sometimes you have to be willing to lose it to save it. We can't make anyone do anything. A person has to be willing to do for themselves! 

I'm actually actually quite proud to be a member of this board. There are some extremely insightful individuals here.

I like to make the comments to take what you can and leave the rest, but in all reality it's much closer to a jig saw puzzle and you have to take a piece from @MEM2020, a piece from @john117, a piece from @Livvie, a piece from @farsidejunky, and a piece from @As'laDain. Those are just examples, but you get my drift. Not all comments are valid or carry the same weight, but as a collective whole the responses are usually very good.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> Amen Livvie, The point you raise is the crux.
> 
> There is a vast difference between not wanting to get divorced - because it’s disruptive and scary and .....
> 
> ...


It's the difference between playing to win vs playing not to lose.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

"Wife, when you are ready to make my needs a priority, I will be again willing to do the same. Until then, I will be pursuing that which makes me happy in the absence of your affection."

Every decision you make should be made through the prism of this statement.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

All that will do - in this case - is to cut off any possibility of dialogue... Which may be a good idea to be honest.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

john117 said:


> All that will do - in this case - is to cut off any possibility of dialogue... Which may be a good idea to be honest.


It is.

The time for talk is long past.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The most common destructive pattern I’ve seen is when people say equate the choice not to divorce with the choice not to rock the boat. 

My take on this might seem simplistic - but it is true. People are in one of three buckets - these sort of map to a kind of assertiveness level. 

1. Willing to divorce an unloving, or incompatible partner 
2. Willing to ruthlessly prioritize themselves at the expense of an ill behaved partner knowing that might result in divorce
3. Powerless

The thing is - almost everyone in bucket (3) likes to claim that bucket 1 is the same as bucket 2. 




Windwalker said:


> And we also know who's more invested in the marriage.
> 
> I see way to many folks can and make statements about how they keep doing all these things for their spouse, but yet get zilch in return. To take a step back and actually look at whom is more deeply invested in the marriage more is very hard for some people. To top everything off, once they have made a determination, it doesn't mean they will do anything. How many times have we heard a poster say that divorce is off the table within the first paragraph? It really is true that sometimes you have to be willing to lose it to save it. We can't make anyone do anything. A person has to be willing to do for themselves!
> 
> ...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

#2 will not result in anything if the indifferent partner is, well... Indifferent. Cold war and all that.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

So far green orb has been unwilling to move out of bucket three.





farsidejunky said:


> It is.
> 
> The time for talk is long past.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Well John - you and I don’t see eye to eye on what constitutes bucket 2. 

But separate from outsourcing - M2 seems to find the loss of my company to be very painful. 

If GreenOrb merely started spending 2-3 nights a week socializing with his male friends - I am fairly confident that G2 would quickly decide to fix their sex life to get him to stop doing that. 

But GO will do nothing til he gets out of bucket 3. 



john117 said:


> #2 will not result in anything if the indifferent partner is, well... Indifferent. Cold war and all that.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> The most common destructive pattern I’ve seen is when people say equate the choice not to divorce with the choice not to rock the boat.
> 
> My take on this might seem simplistic - but it is true. People are in one of three buckets - these sort of map to a kind of assertiveness level.
> 
> ...


Yes sir.

Many people call it different things. You and Far call it deprioritization, As'laDain calls it tit for tat, I refer to it as reciprocal behavior, but in the end they all mean the same thing.

To them there is no 3rd bucket at all. Only divorce and powerless.

To others, they are legitimate strategies.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> If GreenOrb merely started spending 2-3 nights a week socializing with his male friends - I am fairly confident that G2 would quickly decide to fix their sex life to get him to stop doing that.
> 
> But GO will do nothing til he gets out of bucket 3.


That does go back to John's point though of mutuality. Would she be afraid of losing the marriage, or afraid of losing GO?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> Well John - you and I don’t see eye to eye on what constitutes bucket 2.
> 
> But separate from outsourcing - M2 seems to find the loss of my company to be very painful.
> 
> ...


The operative word is indifferent.... 

Unless he spends lots of money as well as time in which case other bad things will happen...


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> Well John - you and I don’t see eye to eye on what constitutes bucket 2.
> 
> But separate from outsourcing - M2 seems to find the loss of my company to be very painful.
> 
> ...


If the loss of a partner's company is not painful this doesn't work. If someone wants the "life structure" of marriage (shared finances, chores, parenting) but doesn't really give a fig about their partner as a companion, nothing might change. iIn fact, she might be GLAD to have the time to herself to do what she wants without him underfoot. As long as he still contributes in the ways she wants him to, it might not be a loss but a win.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Yes - that’s true. 

He’s terrified of discovering that he is viewed as non-essential personnel. 

Me - I’m not terrified, I’d be sad if that turned out to be the case for me - but I’d rather not pour all my time, treasure and talents into someone who considers me a convenience.




Windwalker said:


> That does go back to John's point though of mutuality. Would she be afraid of losing the marriage, or afraid of losing GO?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

But if they view you as a convenience they won't miss you! Hence no leverage...

The only leverage they understand is financial. And depending on situation even that is not important.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Yes

And that’s something I fully grasp because it is true in reverse. Meaning - that the loss of M2’s companionship would be the crushing loss for me. 





Livvie said:


> If the loss of a partner's company is not painful this doesn't work. If someone wants the "life structure" of marriage (shared finances, chores, parenting) but doesn't really give a fig about their partner as a companion, nothing might change. iIn fact, she might be GLAD to have the time to herself to do what she wants without him underfoot. As long as he still contributes in the ways she wants him to, it might not be a loss but a win.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> but I’d rather not pour all my time, treasure and talents into someone who considers me a convenience.


Maya Angelo said it best!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> Yes
> 
> And that’s something I fully grasp because it is true in reverse. Meaning - that the loss of M2’s companionship would be the crushing loss for me.


The corollary is also true. I haven't had a single Lifetime Movie Network moment since S-day...


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

john117 said:


> I haven't had a single Lifetime Movie Network moment since S-day...


I originally mis-read this when I hit quote, as you haven't had to watch Lifetime Movie Network since S-day.

That right there would be worth half the gold in Ft. Knox.
Lol.


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

MEM2020 said:


> He’s terrified of discovering that he is viewed as non-essential personnel.



As ever MEM you are spot on. I have spent a lot of my life seeking validation from others, probably why until fairly recently I valued others’ opinions over my own. So yes, I am scared of discovering I am surplus to requirements for G2. At the end of the day it’s going to become apparent sooner or later.

However right now I’m not convinced that I am surplus. I only told the break up story very briefly. It was G2 who made first contact about 4-5 days after I dumped her, wanting to talk. Initially I said no since at that point I still thought I’d made the right move. I then realised after another week that I still loved her, and when I went back I already knew she would have me back from the way she had been talking. So not as one way as I first made out.

I think she does love me, but is very bad at showing it, which is mainly why I started this thread in the first place. I am well aware that I could be deluding myself, and it may turn out she doesn’t care a whole lot and won’t change, in which case things will fall apart very quickly. 

However I have made some progress. She agrees we need to have sex more, she has agreed to a regular “date” night and is actually trying to be more physical with me day to day.

I’m trying to overcome 17 years of her viewing me as an unambitious, disorganised man. We have only been getting on again properly for about 2 months so I can’t believe things are going to change overnight.

I still feel I’m at the start. We haven’t even had our first date night yet so I feel like I need to give her a small amount of time. If date night doesn’t work out that will become apparent very quickly, then I can employ some other actions suggested here.

Maybe I should be moving quicker on this. I’m sure some people here will say I should. But I need to do what feels right to me. This is my marriage and the mother of my children here, so I think it’s worth spending at least some time over.



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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

GreenOrb said:


> As ever MEM you are spot on. I have spent a lot of my life seeking validation from others, probably why until fairly recently I valued others’ opinions over my own. So yes, I am scared of discovering I am surplus to requirements for G2. At the end of the day it’s going to become apparent sooner or later.
> 
> However right now I’m not convinced that I am surplus. I only told the break up story very briefly. It was G2 who made first contact about 4-5 days after I dumped her, wanting to talk. Initially I said no since at that point I still thought I’d made the right move. I then realised after another week that I still loved her, and when I went back I already knew she would have me back from the way she had been talking. So not as one way as I first made out.
> 
> ...


Ask her how YOU make her feel important and appreciated. Or, do you already know the answer to that?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

john117 said:


> Hence my insistence on end games.



I still don’t see a reliable way to predict what the end games might end up being or whether it’s useful. I think I mentioned it before but you seem to assume there is always a specific intent or some kind of ‘master plan’; sometimes there is but often there isn’t, even if it looks like there is. It’s called ‘backward rationalisation’ or hindsight bias. Sometimes **** just happens and nobody was planning for it to happen. The other person is just too stubborn or lazy to make any effort or they feel it’s not worth the effort for whatever reason and see how far they can push it until she or he give up. Could be that they feel their spouse is not changing then why should they. Or they just don’t like themselves or their life anymore. Really difficult to say.
But I know that human mind always tries to see patterns in complex things; whether it’s stock markets or relationships or evolution or whatever: sometimes there is just no intent; things just happen and we rationalise it accordingly to fit a narrative.

I haven’t read what happened in your marriage that lead to divorce but am sorry to hear that it did in the end. I hope you find a strong footing to move forward. Is it in one of your threads?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Windwalker said:


> It did provide a good back drop. A big part of it was laziness on her part. She just simply didn't want to do it. I know this based on other things she has had resistance to both before and after the time spent on the depo shot.
> 
> 
> 
> I can't say it was all the depo shot, but that is a *HORRIBLE* ****ing drug. It not only killed her drive, but turned her into a zombie of sorts. For many years I wondered what happened to the woman I married.




I read about this. The hormones have a systemic effect when done through a shot (the pill can have this effect to). Though not all women react the same to the hormones.
It’s just something for @GreenOrb to be aware of when choosing BC.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> Windwalker said:
> 
> 
> > It did provide a good back drop. A big part of it was laziness on her part. She just simply didn't want to do it. I know this based on other things she has had resistance to both before and after the time spent on the depo shot.
> ...


It's because these are synthetic hormones, that's why the side effects are so bad.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> Amen Livvie, The point you raise is the crux.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I can also see how this could be viewed differently: he is the one who broke things off. It’s up to him if he wanted to reconcile. People don’t usually try and change the other person’s mind. It’s not just a pride thing but also a respect thing.
Early on in our relationship, i broke things off once or twice (for very stupid reasons). It was up to me to make amends and try to reconcile. She was very relieved I did. It was certainly not because she didn’t want our relationship to continue. She was very miserable and didn’t want me to leave her but she wasn’t going to beg me to come back. It’s not really what some people are wired to do.



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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Bravo,

This makes good sense. 




GreenOrb said:


> As ever MEM you are spot on. I have spent a lot of my life seeking validation from others, probably why until fairly recently I valued others’ opinions over my own. So yes, I am scared of discovering I am surplus to requirements for G2. At the end of the day it’s going to become apparent sooner or later.
> 
> However right now I’m not convinced that I am surplus. I only told the break up story very briefly. It was G2 who made first contact about 4-5 days after I dumped her, wanting to talk. Initially I said no since at that point I still thought I’d made the right move. I then realised after another week that I still loved her, and when I went back I already knew she would have me back from the way she had been talking. So not as one way as I first made out.
> 
> ...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> "Wife, when you are ready to make my needs a priority, I will be again willing to do the same. Until then, I will be pursuing that which makes me happy in the absence of your affection."
> 
> Every decision you make should be made through the prism of this statement.



I’m just curious: has the above worked for you in the long term, without you having to be applying this kind of pressure? Or is it more like a swinging pendulum?

I know it’s maybe idealistic but I would want my wife to want to do things for me and not feel like she has to, for the fear that I may be withholding something else from her as a bargaining chip.
I don’t know, maybe I’m not understanding this statement correctly.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> It is.
> 
> The time for talk is long past.



In his case or your case? I don’t really see dialogue being advocated enough or at all on this thread. I think the ‘words don’t mean anything’ part is only correct in cases where the husband is either unable or unwilling to verbalise things properly or the wife has possibly a comprehension issue. I would not immediately assume it’s an empathy issue, if nothing changes after the first talk. After talks fail, I would take it to a counsellor or move closer to a ‘make or break’ point.

The whole ‘I do this for you when you start doing it for me’ in my mind might promote resentment. Even if the partner starts playing this game, they may play it in a resentful way so not sure how this will be better. They need to actually realise that the whole relationship is at stake and either walk from it (or let you walk from it) in which case you fast track an agonising death of a relationship in any case, or change their behaviour for good/make the effort.

I would not and could not remain in a relationship where this dynamic is present every day.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

Livvie said:


> It's because these are synthetic hormones, that's why the side effects are so bad.


So here's the kicker on this.

I don't know if it was the doctor not talking about the side effects of this particular BC or if it was my wife's lack of asking the pertinent questions.

All I do know is that if my wife hadn't come home 4 years later with a bag full of supplements like iron and calcium, I wouldn't have had a clue what the culprit was. The original doctor that had prescribed the depo shot did not tell her that it caused iron and calcium deficiencies. This is what prompted me to research the drug.

I do know that I can understand the convenience angle. Hell it's a shot every 3 months and forget it. No periods or very light ones. I mean, how many women are going to argue with that? To potentially rid yourself of a monthly hassel and not have to worry about taking a pill every day and worry about messing things up if you forget to take it. 

I can understand that. I also know that many doctors have the mindset that "here take this and call me about problems", rather than sitting people down and explaining the potential side effects.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> The most common destructive pattern I’ve seen is when people say equate the choice not to divorce with the choice not to rock the boat.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There is no bucket 1. Or 2. For anyone who needs their partner to do anything differently in the marriage that they are not doing already. I think one would be deluded to think otherwise.

No matter what tactic you employ, at the end it’s the partner’s call whether they are willing to make the adjustment or not. We feel like we have done something by using one tactic or another but actually it’s the partner who either makes the change or lets the marriage run into the ground. Or am I missing something?


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

inmyprime said:


> There is no bucket 1. Or 2. For anyone who needs their partner to do anything differently in the marriage that they are not doing already. I think one would be deluded to think otherwise.
> 
> No matter what tactic you employ, at the end it’s the partner’s call whether they are willing to make the adjustment or not. We feel like we have done something by using one for Arctic or another but actually it’s the partner who either makes the change or lets the marriage run I to the ground. Or am I missing something?
> 
> ...


You ARE missing something... influence.

We cannot make a decision for somebody else. But we can certainly influence their decision making. We can do this because we are a part of their environment, the world they live in. The bigger part of their environment we are, the more influence we have.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

Well hell. I called that 2 pages back.
I guess it was a matter of time before it was actually said though.

Yes, there are 3 buckets.
They are tactics.
That some people do not want to use them, does not mean they are not tactics.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

As'laDain said:


> You ARE missing something... influence.
> 
> We cannot make a decision for somebody else. But we can certainly influence their decision making. We can do this because we are a part of their environment, the world they live in. The bigger part of their environment we are, the more influence we have.


You can't influence someone if you don't hold a carrot or stick. Note: these may not be obvious...

My neighborhood is full of executive dads and MILFs. Every year one or two divorce due to infidelity or other reasons. The rest of the MILFs do their best, and I mean best, to avoid being that one.

Do you seriously think that someone would pass on a McMansion, hired help, high end SUV, private schools, etc by playing LD? Only if they can get better in a divorce settlement, and that doesn't happen as much as one thinks. I mean, it happens, but the spoils are kind of limited. It's no surprise that the three main advertisers during the commute time are:

- Cordell and Cordell men's divorce lawyers
- men's sexual health clinics 
- jewelry stores where hapless men buy shiny stuff


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

> 2. Willing to ruthlessly prioritize themselves at the expense of an ill behaved partner knowing that might result in divorce


I don't like the word ruthless, but here is what I did:

I had talked, begged, made things clear, etc.

I just calmly went about taking care of me and our children. He could come along for the ride or not. Because he was indifferent, he chose not to. Some people would say that means it didn't work. I saw it as telling me exactly what I needed to know. So I filed and divorced. I controlled me. He reaped the consequences of not stepping up to the plate.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> I’m just curious: has the above worked for you in the long term, without you having to be applying this kind of pressure? Or is it more like a swinging pendulum?
> 
> I know it’s maybe idealistic but I would want my wife to want to do things for me and not feel like she has to, for the fear that I may be withholding something else from her as a bargaining chip.
> I don’t know, maybe I’m not understanding this statement correctly.
> ...


It works for us.

My wife has anxiety combined with taking on too much. When she begins to move me farther down the priority list, I didn't the same for her. It usually pisses her off...but frankly I am not concerned about her reaction.

What typically follows is her treating me with less respect when I withdraw. Then I do so even further, to include not doing the acts of service she wants/expects. When she finally blows, I tell her that if she wants more from me, she can start by doing more for me (courtesy of Mem), beginning with respect. 

This happens about two to four times per year. 

After she decides to reengage, I normally reduce my nights away at MMA training by just a smidge, but I never stop them completely.

Prime, this may not seem ideal. Frankly, it isn't ideal to me either. However, I have come to care a whole lot less for my wife is some crucial, yet healthy ways, which tired into me escaping codependency.

I am my own person. She is her own person. The only expectation is a reasonable level of reciprocity. After all, we are the only thing that we can control. If she doesn't like it, she is free to leave. 

Should that happen, I would be sad...but okay. I could still look myself in the mirror knowing I didn't allow someone to treat me as an option while simultaneously expecting me to treat them like a priority. 

Lastly, I know my worth. I am moderately handsome, bright, successful, financially stable, and possess emotional intelligence. I would not have a problem finding a new partner. This may sound like bragging, but it isn't. I am also incredibly humble and gracious. I couldn't say these things about myself when I came to TAM in 2014. I have begun to appreciate and love who I am now. 

This is what makes it worth the struggle...and if it doesn't work for her, again, she is free to leave. 

Have you ever read Awareness, Prime? It totally sums up what I strive to live like. It is by Anthony DeMello. I think that book would be good for you.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> In his case or your case? I don’t really see dialogue being advocated enough or at all on this thread. I think the ‘words don’t mean anything’ part is only correct in cases where the husband is either unable or unwilling to verbalise things properly or the wife has possibly a comprehension issue. I would not immediately assume it’s an empathy issue, if nothing changes after the first talk. After talks fail, I would take it to a counsellor or move closer to a ‘make or break’ point.
> 
> The whole ‘I do this for you when you start doing it for me’ in my mind might promote resentment. Even if the partner starts playing this game, they may play it in a resentful way so not sure how this will be better. They need to actually realise that the whole relationship is at stake and either walk from it (or let you walk from it) in which case you fast track an agonising death of a relationship in any case, or change their behaviour for good/make the effort.
> 
> ...


Dialogue should happen once...maybe twice, lest you fall into the "stop, or I'll yell stop again" trap.

After all, if I have to be the one to constantly tell her when she is not prioritizing me, she isn't really owning it.

Your entire post is a rationalization for remaining stagnant.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> There is no bucket 1. Or 2. For anyone who needs their partner to do anything differently in the marriage that they are not doing already. I think one would be deluded to think otherwise.
> 
> No matter what tactic you employ, at the end it’s the partner’s call whether they are willing to make the adjustment or not. We feel like we have done something by using one for Arctic or another but actually it’s the partner who either makes the change or lets the marriage run I to the ground. Or am I missing something?
> 
> ...


Only if you are doing it SOLELY to change your partner. I am doing it because I resent myself for allowing it to happen. 

Or as Mem puts it:

"I am not doing this to you. I am doing it for me."


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> I would not and could not remain in a relationship where this dynamic is present every day.


Well, many of these cases involve men (like me) who are unwilling to leave under any circumstances. Living with tit for tat is, I agree, sub-optimal. But it beats staying and living without getting one's needs met at all. Or at least, it does for a while. Eventually the robotic, zombie-like behavior becomes unfulfilling. And by then leaving may seem an even worse outcome.

But I think withdrawing is a valid strategy to bring one's spouse to the negotiating table if they have shown themselves reluctant to step up their game. If they were counting on getting their needs met without reciprocating, they might be willing to start reciprocating. And who knows, some of them will find that given enough practice they come to enjoy it. Some people need motivation to begin running or going to the gym consistently, but once they do it for a while they find they like it.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Disengagement works well on anxiety laden people. I'm not sure you can extrapolate to more IDGAF oriented individuals.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I have been blessed with a terrific partner who is also at times a terrifically challenging partner.

I do not recommend courses of action that I have not successfully pursued myself. 

Some folks tell me, if you do xyz you will end up with a crap marriage. 

Yesterday M2 texted me: I totally love you, you are my world. 

FWIW - when we had a facedown over sex, I calmly told her I'd outsource. After endless battles over money (in a time period where we were putting thousands of dollars a month into our retirement accounts) I did the Male version of withholding love: quit my job for 3 years

Woman loves you, she provides sex. Man loves you, he provides money. 

So yes I'm in love with M2. Its also true that she is a handful. 

Like I tell her: If I wasn't determined, you'd have ground me into fine powder by now. 




farsidejunky said:


> Only if you are doing it SOLELY to change your partner. I am doing it because I resent myself for allowing it to happen.
> 
> Or as Mem puts it:
> 
> "I am not doing this to you. I am doing it for me."


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

john117 said:


> Disengagement works well on anxiety laden people. I'm not sure you can extrapolate to more IDGAF oriented individuals.


i would say you are probably correct in this. which is why i have been greenorb what he actually brings to the table in his marriage. 

its possible that he really has nothing to offer her, in which case his influence is greatly diminished because he simply isn't a big part of her world. 

but, we dont know that, and wont know how effective any given method will or will not be. and neither will greenorb if he never tries.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

inmyprime said:


> I would not and could not remain in a relationship where this dynamic is present every day.


neither could i.


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

As'laDain said:


> i would say you are probably correct in this. which is why i have been greenorb what he actually brings to the table in his marriage.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




In terms of what I bring to the marriage, until recently it was mainly money, and being a decent father at the weekends. My time was so limited that to be honest there wasn’t a lot else.

Since being closer to home in the last 6 months I have been trying to do all the things I know my wife appreciates, ie:
- doing my fair share round the house
- saying thank you for all the little things she does for me (she’s a great cook and I get fed very well)
- taking charge and thinking of things so she no longer has to (I booked our holiday, found a cattery for the cats, I recently got money off our tv package, etc)
- other general things that mean I’m thinking of her (I bought her a new iPad and set it up for her, ditto with iPhone, picked up some shopping for her, etc)

In the last couple of months since our relationship has been back on track (no feuds) I have been rediscovering how to flirt with her. It’s reminded me that we actually do still get on great when we just put some effort in. Something I thought maybe we had lost.

Clearly this is all my point of view, but the fact we have not fallen out now in 2 months and her nagging has reduced considerably makes me feel like I’m on the right track.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Green, 

This is what makes - M2 irresistible - mapped to the big 5 personality dimensions. Rating her from 0 to 5. Five is best. It is a total coincidence that my scoring model goes to 5 when the number of dimensions is also five. 

Decades of research on personality has uncovered five broad dimensions of personality. These so-called Big Five dimensions are called:

Extraversion (your level of sociability and enthusiasm) - 2 (very introverted - causes jealousy issues)

Agreeableness (your level of friendliness and kindness) - 4 (narrow comfort zone in many ways - great sense of humor about that - very friendly and kind to people)

Conscientiousness (your level of organization and work ethic) - 5+++ (always does what she is supposed to - outstanding in this regard - rigorously follows maintenance guidelines for all possessions including husband - this absolutely permeates bedroom mindset). 

Emotional Stability (your level of calmness and tranquility) - 4 (a bit anxious by nature but very sane)

Intellect (your level of creativity and curiosity) - 5 (smart, adventurous and curious) 

————————-
I’m adding a sixth dimension called - RQ - stands for: recreation quotient 

Weighted average of how much fun someone is in a full range of life situations. Sex, non sexual touch (back massage or back scratch, or hug), banter, board game, sports, other. 

M2 gets a 5+++ on that. IME it is extremely hard to find folks who pin the meter on conscientiousness and are also super fun to be around. Usually there is a trade off. 

Disclaimer: In the current time frame sexual frequency is optimized for M2, not me. From late twenties to mid forties it was fully optimized for me. 

I have zero heartburn over this. 





As'laDain said:


> i would say you are probably correct in this. which is why i have been greenorb what he actually brings to the table in his marriage.
> 
> its possible that he really has nothing to offer her, in which case his influence is greatly diminished because he simply isn't a big part of her world.
> 
> but, we dont know that, and wont know how effective any given method will or will not be. and neither will greenorb if he never tries.


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

I had postponed our date night to the weekend, but in the end I couldn’t wait that long so I tried it on tonight and we just had sex. The sex was good, but there are still some things about the way G2’s brain seems to work that confuse the hell out of me.

Based on some of the advice I’ve had here, I completely changed my approach tonight. Given she apparently has responsive desire I decided to do everything I could to get her to respond, and throw in as much domination as I felt I could pull off without coming across as false.

Just after I got home from work, we were in the bedroom together. I initially gave her a cuddle and then pushed her onto the bed and pinned her arms above her head and sat on top of her. The look on her face said “what the hell are you doing” so I said she would have to get me off of her. She said she might rip a ball off if she could get hold of one so I suggested that she try. We then had a brief wrestle before we then had to go put the kids to bed. She told me not to try it again, so I said she enjoyed it really, and she responded that I could get arrested for thinking like that.

We then had dinner, watched some tv and G2 decided to do some shopping on her phone. I complained initially and then decided to start texting her various things about different parts of her body that I like. She didn’t respond so I just kept texting. Eventually she said she could have me arrested for harassment. It was clearly a joke, but I couldn’t quite work out if there was a veiled threat in there too that she did actually want me to stop.

After that I decided it was time to make my move. I didn’t bother asking this time, just went to pick her up so I could carry her upstairs. She looked a little annoyed at this and said she didn’t like being manhandled. Then said she hadn’t decided if she wanted to have sex or not.

We went upstairs and I kissed her several times on the neck as she cleaned her teeth. I then took a quick shower and came out just as she was undressing. So I then just threw her on the bed and told her I was taking the rest off. At this stage she seemed so give in and let me.

I didn’t bother this time with any nice caressing, just jumped on top of her and bit her neck a few times and wrapped my hands through her hair. We didn’t change positions really but several times I pinned her arms down with mine and very lightly tugged at her hair. About as far as I was willing to go for now.

The sex was good and I could tell she enjoyed it. Afterwards she asked if that got her out of sex at the weekend. I couldn’t quite tell if she was joking or not, but I told her it didn’t anyway.

So this feels like a step in the right direction. But during the whole build up I felt like I had to push her pretty damn hard to get anywhere, and it seemed like a balancing act. If I pushed too hard I felt like I was going to annoy her and she would then just say no. Even as we were going upstairs she was still saying she hadn’t made her mind up. And from the way she was saying it I believed her.

So is this just some kind of defence mechanism against her guilt issues? And if I now always behave in this way, will I start getting more sex out of her? Or did I just get lucky tonight and for once catch her in the right mood?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

You handled that fantastic. And you are absolutely right that - being too pushy - will produce a negative response. 

Thing is - her asking if this got her out of the weekend - is important. If she was just joking she has a pretty strong sadistic streak. If not, that is a sign this wasn’t so fun for her. 

GO,
How often do you socialize with your mates? Meaning with them - without her?




GreenOrb said:


> I had postponed our date night to the weekend, but in the end I couldn’t wait that long so I tried it on tonight and we just had sex. The sex was good, but there are still some things about the way G2’s brain seems to work that confuse the hell out of me.
> 
> Based on some of the advice I’ve had here, I completely changed my approach tonight. Given she apparently has responsive desire I decided to do everything I could to get her to respond, and throw in as much domination as I felt I could pull off without coming across as false.
> 
> ...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

As'laDain said:


> i would say you are probably correct in this. which is why i have been greenorb what he actually brings to the table in his marriage.
> 
> its possible that he really has nothing to offer her, in which case his influence is greatly diminished because he simply isn't a big part of her world.
> 
> but, we dont know that, and wont know how effective any given method will or will not be. and neither will greenorb if he never tries.


Actually, the question is, what does SHE thinks he brings to the table.

People tend to rewrite history. We almost split ten years ago when DD announced she wants to study design. Not pre-med . That never happened according to the lovely Dr J2. She never acknowledged my singlehandedly raising the girls. Or making sure the bills are paid. Everything just happened.

I mentioned those back when I joined TAM and was told by the peanut gallery that I'm just bad-mouthing her. Well, yea... 

Mr. Orb could do well to learn what, if any, things she values about him. If the answer is like mine, well...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

I think you did well. Just a few observations:



GreenOrb said:


> I had postponed our date night to the weekend, but in the end I couldn’t wait that long so I tried it on tonight and we just had sex. The sex was good, but there are still some things about the way G2’s brain seems to work that confuse the hell out of me.
> 
> Based on some of the advice I’ve had here, I completely changed my approach tonight. Given she apparently has responsive desire I decided to do everything I could to get her to respond, and throw in as much domination as I felt I could pull off without coming across as false.
> 
> ...


Try not to complain. I don't know what you said exactly (and maybe it's not even worth mentioning) but some women find it off-putting.



GreenOrb said:


> She didn’t respond so I just kept texting. Eventually she said she could have me arrested for harassment. It was clearly a joke, but I couldn’t quite work out if there was a veiled threat in there too that she did actually want me to stop.
> 
> After that I decided it was time to make my move. I didn’t bother asking this time, just went to pick her up so I could carry her upstairs. She looked a little annoyed at this and said she didn’t like being manhandled. Then said she hadn’t decided if she wanted to have sex or not.


Ok so this sounds similar to what my wife used to do; she felt that sex was something she didn't want to give too easily to me. She says it's because she was brought up that way (boys have to fight for girls and girls shouldn't be taken advantage of etc) but in the end it turned out to be part of her sex spiel, when she likes to pretend she doesn't want to do certain things but then has to be forced to do them and that's where all the 'rules' she has been telling me about are thrown out of the window and meant to be broken...Or has to have a man who has enough confidence and assertiveness to take those things from her.
It may not be the same for your wife but I thought I just mention it...
In any case, it seems to imply she feels it's something that she has to (pretend?) to have full control over; that it will be always up to her where, when or how you do it...You should maybe ask her sometime if she feels there's anything at all wrong with this dynamic (that it's always up to her and where YOU come into the picture, if at all). I wonder what reason she comes up with...



GreenOrb said:


> We went upstairs and I kissed her several times on the neck as she cleaned her teeth. I then took a quick shower and came out just as she was undressing. So I then just threw her on the bed and told her I was taking the rest off. At this stage she seemed so give in and let me.
> 
> I didn’t bother this time with any nice caressing, just jumped on top of her and bit her neck a few times and wrapped my hands through her hair. We didn’t change positions really but several times I pinned her arms down with mine and very lightly tugged at her hair. About as far as I was willing to go for now.


Yes, I would go easy with the caressing...I feel it's a bit overrated. Sometimes it's good to be very slow, tender and sensual (for anything to do with oral especially; since nobody really knows what's down there  ): but I am not certain her head is there yet. Have you tried dirty talk with her or is it too much out of your comfort zone? The fact that she mentions you getting arrested over something as trivial as playful talk and wrestle tells me that she is actually egging you on. But maybe that's just my imagination....



GreenOrb said:


> The sex was good and I could tell she enjoyed it. Afterwards she asked if that got her out of sex at the weekend. I couldn’t quite tell if she was joking or not, but I told her it didn’t anyway.
> 
> So this feels like a step in the right direction. But during the whole build up I felt like I had to push her pretty damn hard to get anywhere, and it seemed like a balancing act. If I pushed too hard I felt like I was going to annoy her and she would then just say no. Even as we were going upstairs she was still saying she hadn’t made her mind up. And from the way she was saying it I believed her.
> 
> So is this just some kind of defence mechanism against her guilt issues? And if I now always behave in this way, will I start getting more sex out of her? Or did I just get lucky tonight and for once catch her in the right mood?


Well, there's only one way to find out: keep doing it. And you can talk to her about it afterwards. The best time to talk honestly with each other about those things (like an honest 'appraisal') is right after sex I find. Ask her what she liked about this or that and tell her what you liked etc. You can do it in a joking way, rather than probing and needy/insecure way.

It seems to me from your description that she likes to play 'hard to get' with this whole 'I haven't made my mind up yet if I am going to let you have sex with me'.
You can counter this with 'try to stop me' in a joking (non threatening or demeaning) way. Or 'do you think the police will get here in time to arrest me before you have an orgasm?' I dunno.

Unless I got it all wrong and she is already having kinky and satisfying sex with another dude whom she met or re-connected with while you were away for work all these years, in which case ignore everything I said up to this point! (That's the scenario you automatically adopt after reading these forums for a while...)


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> FWIW - when we had a facedown over sex, I calmly told her I'd outsource. After endless battles over money (in a time period where we were putting thousands of dollars a month into our retirement accounts) I did the Male version of withholding love: quit my job for 3 years


Wow. Are the two really equivalent? When the wife withholds sex, she is hurting you, consciously or subconsciously. When the provider stops providing, he or she is hurting the whole family (very much consciously) and kids are affected the most.

Also - and I know this is just a testament to how different the dynamics can be between people so I don't mean to be in any way judgemental about this: but if I told my wife that I was going to find other women to have sex with because sex was so bad with her, instead of just telling her my dissatisfaction with bad sex*, she would tell me to GTFO. Not because she has me by the balls but because she would find it an extremely disrespectful thing to say. (Even if I really wanted to respect myself, I would feel like a hypocrite if I was at the same time being disrespectful to her). But I am probably missing big chunks of your story that I have not read for this to make more sense in a context.

*if sex is bad for whatever reason, I usually ask her if something is wrong and if there's a reason why she is not into it as much as 'usual'. That's enough of a 'hint' usually for her to get the message, unless there is something wrong and she is not well etc. But maybe it's too 'British' and won't work with some.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> It works for us.
> 
> My wife has anxiety combined with taking on too much. When she begins to move me farther down the priority list, I didn't the same for her. It usually pisses her off...but frankly I am not concerned about her reaction.
> 
> What typically follows is her treating me with less respect when I withdraw. Then I do so even further, to include not doing the acts of service she wants/expects. When she finally blows, I tell her that if she wants more from me, she can start by doing more for me (courtesy of Mem), beginning with respect.


So what would happen if instead of doing the whole withdrawing the acts of services and pissing her off thing, you told her straight up what you felt or how you felt what she is doing (or not doing) is affecting you and that in the long term, you didn't think you could put up with this?

All you are doing by acting differently towards her, essentially, is *getting her* to start that conversation up with you which perhaps you feel uncomfortable initiating yourself. Which I can totally understand btw. It's a ****ty conversation to have.

Or will she ignore it and not take any notice of you? In which case if you found it works for you, I wouldn't rock the boat (by not wanting to rock the boat too much  - but it seems a slightly convoluted way to open up what could be a very straightforward and honest dialogue.



farsidejunky said:


> This happens about two to four times per year.
> 
> After she decides to reengage, I normally reduce my nights away at MMA training by just a smidge, but I never stop them completely.
> 
> ...


I will try to get hold of the book. Thanks for the suggestion.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Windwalker said:


> Yes sir.
> 
> Many people call it different things. You and Far call it deprioritization, As'laDain calls it tit for tat, I refer to it as reciprocal behavior, but in the end they all mean the same thing.
> 
> ...


Re No2 (deprioritization): the main problem I see with it (for al the practical intents and purposes) is that people have selective memory: your partner may not get that you are treating them a certain way because they did something to you. They _may_ get it if they then ask you: 'what's wrong?' In which case (again), all you have done is *getting them to open up the conversation with you* about what it is you may or may not be 'sulking' about.
I am not convinced it teaches them anything what we _may_ imagine it may be teaching them...

What it really comes down to is this: *does she care enough about you or your marriage to make the necessary adjustments or reach a compromise?*

If yes, she will *choose* to make them in the end, whether you give her an ultimatum or tell her nicely. You won't be able to 'make' her do anything, if she does not want to and doesn't care enough. 
Why not fast track the BS and cut to the chase? 

Maybe that's what @john117 means by 'knowing their endgame', I don't know. 
But I do know that it might be better to find this out sooner rather than later because by playing these reciprocity games, you can easily run a marriage further into the ground by making it feed on this unhealthy dynamic for too long (because people are stubborn; some more than others).
Anyway, I am repeating myself too much.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Windwalker said:


> So here's the kicker on this.
> 
> I don't know if it was the doctor not talking about the side effects of this particular BC or if it was my wife's lack of asking the pertinent questions.
> 
> ...


The side effects are all over the internet (though many women are not affected by them). BC is something we researched together only recently and depo shots seem to have some of the worst side effects in this respect.
For 'fire and forget', the UID makes actually much more sense because you 'forget' about it for 5-10 years and the systemic effects seem negligible. But the doc perhaps didn't explain these things well or at all to both of you.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> Dialogue should happen once...maybe twice, lest you fall into the "stop, or I'll yell stop again" trap.
> 
> After all, if I have to be the one to constantly tell her when she is not prioritizing me, she isn't really owning it.
> 
> Your entire post is a rationalization for remaining stagnant.


Why only once? Telling her 4 times a year would not be 'constantly'. I tell her about things I am not happy with maybe 4 times a day.....but also try to balance it out with telling her things I *am* happy with at least in equal measure...
Though the latter should be more frequent!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Prime,

You made a series of negative and incorrect assumptions instead of asking simple questions.

The kids were entirely unaffected by my wildcat strike. They’ve all gone to college - have no debt. 

As for the sex thing - I have a whole thread on that somewhere. It had nothing to do with quality. M2 is without doubt better at sex than I am. Suffice to say - I felt sorely provoked. Sufficiently so that a GTFO response would have produced a shrug, a nod, followed by the quiet sound of clothing dropping into luggage. 





inmyprime said:


> Wow. Are the two really equivalent? When the wife withholds sex, she is hurting you, consciously or subconsciously. When the provider stops providing, he or she is hurting the whole family (very much consciously) and kids are affected the most.
> 
> Also - and I know this is just a testament to how different the dynamics can be between people so I don't mean to be in any way judgemental about this: but if I told my wife that I was going to find other women to have sex with because sex was so bad with her, instead of just telling her my dissatisfaction with bad sex*, she would tell me to GTFO. Not because she has me by the balls but because she would find it an extremely disrespectful thing to say. (Even if I really wanted to respect myself, I would feel like a hypocrite if I was at the same time being disrespectful to her). But I am probably missing big chunks of your story that I have not read for this to make more sense in a context.
> 
> *if sex is bad for whatever reason, I usually ask her if something is wrong and if there's a reason why she is not into it as much as 'usual'. That's enough of a 'hint' usually for her to get the message, unless there is something wrong and she is not well etc. But maybe it's too 'British' and won't work with some.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> You ARE missing something... influence.
> 
> We cannot make a decision for somebody else. But we can certainly influence their decision making. We can do this because we are a part of their environment, the world they live in. The bigger part of their environment we are, the more influence we have.


Ok but even if it was true (which I am not convinced it is), I still don't see how we would be influencing the partner's decision in a positive way, if we treated them like crap (as a tit for tat tactic).

I still maintain that all you can REALLY do if you want the partner to make any changes or compromise is one of three things: 

1. ask them nicely
2. not so nicely (threaten them with leaving)
3. leave

Incidentally, I have done all of these three things over the course of the marriage. 
However 1. should (and does) usually suffice.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Prime,

And what do you recommend after numerous conversations produce no change whatsoever. And it is clear that the other person fully understands your request, doesn’t debate the fairness of it, but simply ignores what you want. 

What then? 





inmyprime said:


> So what would happen if instead of doing the whole withdrawing the acts of services and pissing her off thing, you told her straight up what you felt or how you felt what she is doing (or not doing) is affecting you and that in the long term, you didn't think you could put up with this?
> 
> All you are doing by acting differently towards her, essentially, is *getting her* to start that conversation up with you which perhaps you feel uncomfortable initiating yourself. Which I can totally understand btw. It's a ****ty conversation to have.
> 
> ...


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> Re No2 (deprioritization): the main problem I see with it (for al the practical intents and purposes) is that people have selective memory: your partner may not get that you are treating them a certain way because they did something to you. They _may_ get it if they then ask you: 'what's wrong?' In which case (again), all you have done is *getting them to open up the conversation with you* about what it is you may or may not be 'sulking' about.
> I am not convinced it teaches them anything what we _may_ imagine it may be teaching them...
> 
> That's why it's should be stated to the spouse that "seeing as you deprioritze my needs and in turn the relationship, I will deprioritze yours". I'm doing this for me, not to you. There is no "sulking". There is only simple statement of fact. If they really care that little for you and your needs then why should you make their's your purpose. There's a definition for that, it's called doormat.
> ...


In the end, humans have free will. 
They can however, be influenced. 
This is just a strategy that allows you to see just exactly how far that influence goes, and at the same time step out of the doormat role.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Prime,
You're debating a strategy you don’t understand. I have never ‘treated M2 bad’ as in spoken to her like she’s defective, given her the silent treatment. 

My sole move is to spend more time off doing things I enjoy and less time doing stuff with M2. That’s it. My behavior towards her is the same when we are together, we simply aren’t together as much and she knows why. 

Far does pretty much the same. 





inmyprime said:


> Ok but even if it was true (which I am not convinced it is), I still don't see how we would be influencing the partner's decision in a positive way, if we treated them like crap (as a tit for tat tactic).
> 
> I still maintain that all you can REALLY do if you want the partner to make any changes or compromise is one of three things:
> 
> ...


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> Prime,
> 
> And what do you recommend after numerous conversations produce no change whatsoever. And it is clear that the other person fully understands your request, doesn’t debate the fairness of it, but simply ignores what you want.
> 
> What then?


Far mentioned that conversation should happen once, perhaps twice. This seems somewhat unproductive and somehow unrealistic to me.

If conversations don't yield any results (and I would try approaching the subject from many different angles/perspective) perhaps try a different type of conversation (as per step 2).

The whole point (to me at least) is not about making ourselves feel better (or value or respect ourselves more) but about results.
I don't mean to sound facetious but we can value ourselves all we want, but if the marriage is causing us so much anxiety and resentfulness towards the person we are going to spend the majority of our life with, then addressing self-respect instead (the importance of which I don't mean to diminish) seems to be missing the target by quite a margin. 
It's a distraction tactic in my mind.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> The side effects are all over the internet (though many women are not affected by them). BC is something we researched together only recently and depo shots seem to have some of the worst side effects in this respect.
> For 'fire and forget', the UID makes actually much more sense because you 'forget' about it for 5-10 years and the systemic effects seem negligible. But the doc perhaps didn't explain these things well or at all to both of you.


Yeah, they are. NOW!

The Depo shot has had various forms since the 60s and has always been pulled off the market.. The final FDA approved version was not released until 1992. It did not gain wide acceptance until many years later in the late 90s/2000s.

We are talking 15 years ago when my wife started taking this. So in all reality the drug had seen only a handful of years of wide spread use. The number of things known about this drug now compared to 15 years ago is quite profound. 

In the end, my ignorance cost not only me, but my wife as well. I didn't really get in the middle of my wife reproductive rights. In the end it was her decision. 

I no longer worry about it now as she is no longer on any BC. I had a vasectomy 5 years ago, and had I known then what I know now, I would have had it done right after the 3rd child was born. 

For the record, I know of many guys that have tried to get a vasectomy at a young age and it is a royal ***** to get done. Many doctors will flat refuse to do the procedure.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> Prime,
> You're debating a strategy you don’t understand. I have never ‘treated M2 bad’ as in spoken to her like she’s defective, given her the silent treatment.
> 
> My sole move is to spend more time off doing things I enjoy and less time doing stuff with M2. That’s it. My behavior towards her is the same when we are together, *we simply aren’t together as much and she knows why. *
> ...


I think the post you are quoting was my reply to As'laDain's post.

But in terms of the last sentence: the way it is phrased ('she knows why') seems to imply that she knows that the reason you choose not to be with her as much because you are unhappy with parts of her behaviour towards you, yet she chooses not to do anything about it? Or have I misunderstood it?
(It's a question btw, not an assumption).


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

GO:

You made a large step in the right direction.

Now you need to monitor GO2 for any signs of resentment. If she did in fact get mad at the sexual exchange, the resentment will surface.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> Prime,
> 
> You made a series of negative and incorrect assumptions instead of asking simple questions.


Yes I am aware this is a danger; I can only go by the snippets from the posts. 



MEM2020 said:


> The kids were entirely unaffected by my wildcat strike. They’ve all gone to college - have no debt.


So who provided for the three years? And were you able to get back to work after three years? This decision can be very costly and hugely consequential for the family (even if kids unaffected; though presumably college will have to be paid for by someone?). I still struggle to view the two as equivalent but can appreciate that it must have been a 'wake up call'.
There was only one instance I 'offered' to give up work. I knew what this would have entailed: my career would have been damaged for good and I probably could never have been able to come back to where I was/am if I took a 3 year sabbatical.




MEM2020 said:


> As for the sex thing - I have a whole thread on that somewhere. It had nothing to do with quality. M2 is without doubt better at sex than I am. Suffice to say - I felt sorely provoked. Sufficiently so that a GTFO response would have produced a shrug, a nod, followed by the quiet sound of clothing dropping into luggage.


The thread you are referring to: is it the 'minimizing bad sex' thread? (There are many other threads, i am not sure which one you are referring to). I will try to get through it to understand the situation better.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Your post makes sense. I somehow thought it is possible, actually *necessary* to pre-empt a relationship reaching that stage where those kinds of tactics should apply.

Perhaps my views are idealistic or perhaps I was very fortunate in many ways with my wife. One of her 'features' is that she is incredibly loyal and once she loves or cares for something or someone, she will never let go and move mountains, even if it is to her own detriment - no thanks to me. Perhaps my views are coloured because of this. I push very rarely hard with her, and only when I feel there is absolutely no other way or where I feel I can't continue with my life anymore. The rest of the time, I devote my life to her and anything I do or set out to do, is with the thought of how it could benefit her or the family. The interests become sort of aligned and both partners realise that making an effort actually makes sense because we are all playing for the same team in the end....That's why this tit for tat thing seems so alien to me. Anyway, I digress.




Windwalker said:


> That's why it's should be stated to the spouse that "seeing as you deprioritze my needs and in turn the relationship, I will deprioritze yours". I'm doing this for me, not to you. There is no "sulking". There is only simple statement of fact. If they really care that little for you and your needs then why should you make their's your purpose. There's a definition for that, it's called doormat.


I understand that. I don't quite understand where does caring for your partner's needs come into this. What if the partner already _*has*_ a reason (valid in their mind) for treating you the way they do? Who gets to decide whether this reason is more or less valid than yours? How do you address this using the 'depriorization' method?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

To date - this has had a 100% success rate in producing improved effort. 

There is some amount of reduction of presence and then she normally says she would like my normal level of presence to return and is agreeable to making more effort in whatever thing was causing the issue. 

I don’t do this lightly. Nor is it my first move. This is after protracted and unsuccessful discussion. 

You really have lost the thread if you don’t grasp why this is a minimal use of force strategy. Besides I am not obligated to give M2 the very high level of interaction she wants from me. I do it because it is fun, not because I’m her prisoner. 

But it isn’t fun if it doesn’t feel appreciated. 





inmyprime said:


> I think the post you are quoting was my reply to As'laDain's post.
> 
> But in terms of the last sentence: the way it is phrased ('she knows why') seems to imply that she knows that the reason you choose not to be with her as much because you are unhappy with parts of her behaviour towards you, yet she chooses not to do anything about it? Or have I misunderstood it?
> (It's a question btw, not an assumption).


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Exactly what counts as "very high level of interaction"?

Here's my view


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> To date - this has had a 100% success rate in producing improved effort.
> 
> There is some amount of reduction of presence and then she normally says she would like my normal level of presence to return and is agreeable to making more effort in *whatever thing was causing the issue. *
> 
> ...


What kind of thing is it, that is causing the issue, if it's not the sex? (You mentioned she is 'better at it'). Or is it always something different?

My therapist referred to 'withdrawing to the man cave'* which she mentioned is a typical/instinctive male reaction whenever there might be conflict.
I do it to an extent as self-preservation whenever I feel I need to 'wait out the storm' (if the storm is purely hormonally fuelled and about nothing specific which happens about once a month).
When it's something specific, then talk talk talk...I think it is a heavily underrated activity and often not done properly...

*which could entail doing anything on your own or with other people I guess


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Very rarely fight about sex. And definitely not to the point where I’m prioritizing me. 

We fight about control. M2 thinks she should be in control of everything. She does however have a good sense of humor and recognizes this more rapidly now than in the past. 




inmyprime said:


> What kind of thing is it, that is causing the issue, if it's not the sex? (You mentioned she is 'better at it'). Or is it always something different?
> 
> My therapist referred to 'withdrawing to the man cave'* which she mentioned is a typical/instinctive male reaction whenever there might be conflict.
> I do it to an extent as self-preservation whenever I feel I need to 'wait out the storm' (if the storm is purely hormonally fuelled and about nothing specific which happens about once a month).
> ...


----------



## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> Your post makes sense. I somehow thought it is possible, actually *necessary* to pre-empt a relationship reaching that stage where those kinds of tactics should apply.
> 
> Perhaps my views are idealistic or perhaps I was very fortunate in many ways with my wife. One of her 'features' is that she is incredibly loyal and once she loves or cares for something or someone, she will never let go and move mountains, even if it is to her own detriment - no thanks to me. Perhaps my views are coloured because of this. I push very rarely hard with her, and only when I feel there is absolutely no other way or where I feel I can't continue with my life anymore. The rest of the time, I devote my life to her and anything I do or set out to do, is with the thought of how it could benefit her or the family. The interests become sort of aligned and both partners realise that making an effort actually makes sense because we are all playing for the same team in the end....That's why this tit for tat thing seems so alien to me. Anyway, I digress.
> 
> ...


You know, I may not be exsplaining this correctly or maybe using the wrong words. This is more about, in my mind anyways, about simply exsplaining that "hey I would ordinarily probably do this for you, but with the way I'm feeling right now about the relationship, I'm just don't feel like putting in as much effort."

This is not and would not be my go to strategy. I would much rather discuss thing in a logical adult manner. I also know that in the past I have had a tendency to wait to long to implement a different strategy.

It doesn't have to be adversarial. In fact you could be just as cordial and even as loving as ever. It's about taking yourself and making use of your outputs prioritized on yourself rather than your spouse. Hence why "I'm doing this for myself rather than doing this to you." Another aspect of this is to make yourself less available. Pursue your own interests. If you are not home as much then there are less "requests" that can be made of you.

You nor anyone else gets to dictate that another person's feelings on a situation are valid or invalid. "Spouse, I'm sorry you feel that way. I am not afraid to admit any and all failings that I have or may have committed. I apologize and would like for this situation to be resolved. I resolve to not repeat the transgression. You however do not get to bludgeon me over the head for the same transgression until hell freezes over. I'll simply make myself less available for your bludgeoning."

Thats how I would envision an ideal conversation.
Worst case scenario," Well, you have beaten me enough and if you're determined to do this, then let's see how damned determined you really are, because I'll burn it right down with you! "

I myself would much rather play nice and almost always recommend that route, but if need be, I am extremely experienced in being ruthlessly nasty if I have to be. Only if I have to be.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> Very rarely fight about sex. And definitely not to the point where I’m prioritizing me.
> 
> We fight about control. M2 thinks she should be in control of everything. She does however have a good sense of humor and recognizes this more rapidly now than in the past.


You mean (as a stupid example): she wants to get a certain type of curtain but you have a different opinion, she won't let you have an opinion then you go out with friends/withdraw and wait until she comes around; that kind of thing?

At which point would you be able to take notice or acknowledge that she had certain reasons for choosing those curtains with the 'withdrawing the presence' thing? And do you really feel it would have any effect if it was concerning a 'make or break' issue that was of serious significance to her?

I think my wife once said that (I am paraphrasing) men are most comfortable when being in control and excelling in leadership but women are much better at helping men perpetuate this illusion in their imaginations.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Windwalker said:


> You know, I may not be exsplaining this correctly or maybe using the wrong words.


I think you are mansplaining it just fine


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> Very rarely fight about sex. And definitely not to the point where I’m prioritizing me.
> 
> We fight about control. M2 thinks she should be in control of everything. She does however have a good sense of humor and recognizes this more rapidly now than in the past.


Like most things in life, isn't that what a very big majority of disagreements are about? Gaining or retaining control in some form or another.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

She has good taste and aesthetic is a big deal to her - so I would never and have never challenged her on a house related choice.

She wanted to get rid of our land line. I didn’t. Sound quality matters more to me than her and the land line was noticeably better quality than our cell phones when used at our house. 





inmyprime said:


> You mean (as a stupid example): she wants to get a certain type of curtain but you have a different opinion, she won't let you have an opinion then you go out with friends/withdraw and wait until she comes around; that kind of thing?
> 
> At which point would you be able to take notice or acknowledge that she had certain reasons for choosing those curtains with the 'withdrawing the presence' thing? And do you really feel it would have any effect if it was concerning a 'make or break' issue that was of serious significance to her?
> 
> I think my wife once said that (I am paraphrasing) men are most comfortable when being in control and excelling in leadership but women are much better at helping men perpetuate this illusion in their imaginations.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

"""I think my wife once said that (I am paraphrasing) men are most comfortable when being in control and excelling in leadership but women are much better at helping men perpetuate this illusion in their imaginations"""

And vice versa.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

john117 said:


> """I think my wife once said that (I am paraphrasing) men are most comfortable when being in control and excelling in leadership but women are much better at helping men perpetuate this illusion in their imaginations"""
> 
> And vice versa.


If she makes you think that, then yeah. There's an infinite regression, you know


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> "withdrawing the presence"


Thanks.
This is a phrase that was eluding me.

Presence as in the physical.
Presence as in the influential. 
Presence as in the undescribable trait that draws people.

We all exude presence of some form. Some better than others. It rattles some people when you withdraw presence.

This is part of the tactic.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> She wanted to get rid of our land line. I didn’t. Sound quality matters more to me than her and the land line was noticeably better quality than our cell phones when used at our house.


What was her reason? I hope it's not because you stopped working to show her who is The Boss and she couldn't pay for it! 
Joking. 

It's funny, I had the same 'brilliant idea'/argument once with my wife. (I was the one who thought a landline was completely unnecessary in the age of internet and mobile phones and we only get sale calls on it and I don't want anybody to call me anyway...).

I can't remember what her reasoning was for keeping it or why she won that argument but I remember the phone sex was good! (I was away when we had that argument over the phone so perhaps it was the sound quality after all 

In any case, it's funny I have no idea why we sometimes have to take these things personally...I think we try to avoid these issues by dividing responsibilities and if something goes wrong try not to blame the other...But also simply talk through reasons logically without too many emotions.

And yes, humour definitely helps, you are right.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

inmyprime said:


> Ok but even if it was true (which I am not convinced it is), I still don't see how we would be influencing the partner's decision in a positive way, if we treated them like crap (as a tit for tat tactic).
> 
> I still maintain that all you can REALLY do if you want the partner to make any changes or compromise is one of three things:
> 
> ...


how is it that you can only see the nuclear option as the only option past asking? its like negotiating with a nuclear bomb...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> If she makes you think that, then yeah. There's an infinite regression, you know


I meant the illusion of control goes both ways. In practice the person doing things has control.


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

MEM2020 said:


> You handled that fantastic. And you are absolutely right that - being too pushy - will produce a negative response.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



She mentioned it again this morning. We weren’t even talking about sex and suddenly she just said that she was now off duty for next little while. I said that sex was good for us and she wasn’t off duty, and she replied that she knew I enjoyed sex but it didn’t do much for her.

And this is the bit I don’t get with her. Unless she is as good an actress as Meg Ryan, she quite clearly enjoyed it last night, but she seems completely unwilling to admit it. Is she trying to convince herself that sex is something good girls don’t do and she mustn’t admit to liking it?

She does have a somewhat sadistic streak - she has a very sarcastic sense of humour, something I like in her and it drives a lot of our interactions. But there are times when her jokes seem quite harsh and I often can’t quite figure out if they are jokes or she’s being serious. And I don’t want to probe right now since that just seems to irk her, and potentially comes off as weak and needy of me. Maybe I should?

In the past I haven’t gone out with friends (without her) as much as I should. Perhaps once every 3 weeks ish. I always felt guilty since I wasn’t home very much. In the last 6 months this is slowly rising and I’ve also started to do more sports on the weekend, which used to be completely out. And I went away on a 3 day trips with friends a few months back which I wouldn’t have dreamed of doing a year or two ago. I’m expecting you’re going to say it’s healthy to spend time away from each other so that she can appreciate me more when I’m there? (or not as the case may be!)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

GreenOrb said:


> She mentioned it again this morning. *We weren’t even talking about sex and suddenly she just said that she was now off duty for next little while.* I said that sex was good for us and she wasn’t off duty, and *she replied that she knew I enjoyed sex but it didn’t do much for her.*


As a woman, I just don't understand this. 

It would have been amazing if my ex-husband has told me what he needed and wanted from me. You've communicated clearly, and yet she's straight out refusing. It's so selfish. I doesn't even seem like there's a part of her that wants to please you.



> In the past I haven’t gone out with friends (without her) as much as I should. Perhaps once every 3 weeks ish. I always felt guilty since I wasn’t home very much. In the last 6 months this is slowly rising and I’ve also started to do more sports on the weekend, which used to be completely out. And I went away on a 3 day trips with friends a few months back which I wouldn’t have dreamed of doing a year or two ago. I’m expecting you’re going to say it’s healthy to spend time away from each other so that she can appreciate me more when I’m there? (or not as the case may be!)


I think it is healthy to have separate interests and to do things with others.

Having said that though, I'm not one to get homesick or miss people - however I am constant. So, for me, I'd want the man I love just as much when he comes home from work as I would if he went away for a week.

I'm really sorry you're struggling with this. As much as I'd like a man in my life, stories like yours remind me to be content where I am.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

GO,
Need to ask her why she’s pretending that it feels good when it doesn’t. That’s it. No prelim, no windup. Just a direct question. 

Because you two have never had real communication about what the experience is like for her. Something desperately needed when your frequency crashed 15+ years ago.





GreenOrb said:


> She mentioned it again this morning. We weren’t even talking about sex and suddenly she just said that she was now off duty for next little while. I said that sex was good for us and she wasn’t off duty, and she replied that she knew I enjoyed sex but it didn’t do much for her.
> 
> And this is the bit I don’t get with her. Unless she is as good an actress as Meg Ryan, she quite clearly enjoyed it last night, but she seems completely unwilling to admit it. Is she trying to convince herself that sex is something good girls don’t do and she mustn’t admit to liking it?
> 
> ...


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> I think you did well. Just a few observations:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thanks for the feedback Prime. Feels like our wives are similar. Dirty talk probably not out of my comfort zone, but I think if I tried it on her right now she’d ask what the hell I was doing. Does it work on yours? Right now she balks even at the word ****. I’ve bought her some dirty novels to read so maybe that will open her eyes a bit.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Don't Panic (Apr 2, 2017)

GreenOrb said:


> She mentioned it again this morning. We weren’t even talking about sex and suddenly she just said that she was now off duty for next little while. I said that sex was good for us and she wasn’t off duty, and she replied that she knew I enjoyed sex but it didn’t do much for her.
> 
> And this is the bit I don’t get with her. Unless she is as good an actress as Meg Ryan, she quite clearly enjoyed it last night, but she seems completely unwilling to admit it. *Is she trying to convince herself that sex is something good girls don’t do and she mustn’t admit to liking it?*
> [/B]
> ...


No. Unlikely given what you have described. Control issues to the nth degree combined with not respecting you. Although you could certainly use that "good girl" persona to challenge and engage her >

Ideally you will see to it that she honor the schedule. It's going to be a challenge, she is already attempting prophylactic push-back. Employ your sense of humor. Going rogue and adding sessions should be treated as _serendipitous_...she let that "naughty girl" come out to play. Try complimenting her for that. Not that you've shown signs of it GreenOrb, a reminder, don't whine. You're doing well. 

"Sorry, no such thing as "off-duty" within a happy, fulfilled marriage. Not on my watch honey."


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## Don't Panic (Apr 2, 2017)

MEM2020 said:


> GO,
> Need to ask her why she’s pretending that it feels good when it doesn’t. That’s it. No prelim, no windup. Just a direct question.
> 
> Because you two have never had real communication about what the experience is like for her. Something desperately needed when your frequency crashed 15+ years ago.


100% agree.


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## Don't Panic (Apr 2, 2017)

GreenOrb said:


> Thanks for the feedback Prime. Feels like our wives are similar. Dirty talk probably not out of my comfort zone, but I think if I tried it on her right now she’d ask what the hell I was doing. Does it work on yours? Right now she balks even at the word ****. I’ve bought her some dirty novels to read so maybe that will open her eyes a bit.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It *is* uncomfortable and awkward at first if that type of banter isn't your norm. However, soooo worth it if/when you are both able to get there. A lot of women are auditory learners :wink2: Start small.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

GreenOrb said:


> She mentioned it again this morning. We weren’t even talking about sex and suddenly she just said that she was now off duty for next little while. I said that sex was good for us and she wasn’t off duty, *and she replied that she knew I enjoyed sex but it didn’t do much for her.*
> 
> And this is the bit I don’t get with her. Unless she is as good an actress as Meg Ryan, she quite clearly enjoyed it last night, but she seems completely unwilling to admit it. Is she trying to convince herself that sex is something good girls don’t do and she mustn’t admit to liking it?
> 
> ...


It could very well be that she *means *what she says. Have you asked her what it is that could make the experience for her more enjoyable? And have you told her whether she is aware how much you suffer from that lack of attention and what it is doing to the health of your marriage? Maybe find a couple of threads on TAM with stories about similar situations and what it does to people/couples and ask her to read them. Holingontoit's thread is pretty insightful but there are myriad similar threads like this.

I wouldn't be afraid asking questions like that and if you feel she is not really answering the question or avoiding the conversation or doesn't seem bothered by you expressing concerns, it is at this point that I would (if I was in your shoes) steer the conversation more towards step 2 (from my post further up).
Which means basically stating that you are concerned and worried that you are not sure that you will be able to handle those kinds of withdrawals and lack of affection from her in the long term and that you are someone who loves and adores her and it is a torture to not be able to not have that kind of affection returned in any shape or form. 
She may at this point give you reasons or explain why or perhaps understand better where you are coming from or how much it means to you And that sex is not just some luxury she can indulge you in 6 times a year but an integral part of a marriage. There's still a long way to go before step 3 is on the table...so I wouldn't worry about it yet.

What I would NOT do (in my marriage) is provide her with 'extra services' and expecting something in return in the hope that she somehow 'gets it'. Or withhold things from her to explicitly or implicitly 'force' her to see things your way. I know I am probably pissing people off by saying it but I would consider this a type of blackmail for my own marriage.
You would be entering in some some sort of quasi-contractual obligation that she has never agreed to participate in in the first place and it is not fair on either of you and IMO you would be wasting your time and just pushing her away even more. She will have even more reason to just tell you later on that the reason she is leaving you is because you became 'cold and distant' all over sudden or find some other reason to justify the inevitable or something she has always had in the back of her head already. The thing is, you don't really want to remain in a marriage where the partner does not mind to willingly hurt you like this or ignore the fact that you are hurt and at the same time also not mind if you were to leave her. There is no magical fix for those types of situations. If someone doesn't love you, you can't make them love you nor should you make them appear as if they do, because you managed to make them do something they don't really want to do in the first place. Sorry it sounds horrible. But that's my take on it.

But it's obviously your call and I hope you manage to make it work through dialogues first.
Good luck and I do still hope that perhaps there is still a chance she is playing the 'hard to get' games with you...


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> GO,
> Need to ask her why she’s pretending that it feels good when it doesn’t. That’s it. No prelim, no windup. Just a direct question.
> 
> Because you two have never had real communication about what the experience is like for her. Something desperately needed when your frequency crashed 15+ years ago.


This.

And if she still digs her heels in without explaining, it is time for deprioritization.

Make no mistake...this is a power struggle. The only real options here are to win...or drop the rope. Any other outcome will make the situation worse.

Lead in with Mem's suggestion.

If she refuses to discuss it, shrug your shoulders and say:

"I wouldn't want you to do anything you don't feel like doing."

From that point forward, "I don't feel like it" becomes your new default for anything specific to her...anything. 

When she complains about it...

"You made it clear that if you don't feel like doing something for me, you won't. I think that is a fine idea."

I will tell you this...Mem is brilliant at finding concise ways to enhance collaboration. I would only use my advice (or more specifically the above advice) if she makes it clear that she has no interest in collaboration.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

farsidejunky said:


> Make no mistake...this is a power struggle.


I hate power struggles.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

GreenOrb said:


> Thanks for the feedback Prime. Feels like our wives are similar. Dirty talk probably not out of my comfort zone, but I think if I tried it on her right now she’d ask what the hell I was doing.* Does it work on yours?* Right now she balks even at the word ****. I’ve bought her some dirty novels to read so maybe that will open her eyes a bit.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, it's one the most powerful arousals for her if not the most powerful: anticipation with slight fear of what she might be subjected to triggers a strong sexual response in her. Part of it is also the shock factor: the dirtier it is (the crazier things I tell her I want to do to her), the more effect it has. She would tell me I mustn't say any of those things to her and how disgusted she is with any of it and that she will resist, report me or whatever but it's all games; I have much more confidence saying those things now because I pretty much hear the dripping on the floor soon after or ask her why her body is speaking a different language from her mouth. It's at the heart of what submission is all about and for women, so much of it is in the head. (I say for 'women' but I have only ever been with the one so take it all with a pinch of salt).

But like I said, I found these things out by 'accident' and probably would never have known (nor would she - it was all new for her too; I am her first as well) unless I tried different things.
What do you have to loose?


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

> Ok but even if it was true (which I am not convinced it is), I still don't see how we would be influencing the partner's decision in a positive way, if we *treated them like crap* (as a tit for tat tactic).


Thing is....no one has said to treat your spouse like crap.

I didn't treat him like crap when I detached. I just did my thing. I still made dinner. He still had clean underwear. Granted, I didn't bring him his plate when he was on his laptop or lay out his clothes or those little extras. If he made some sort of passive announcement that, in the past, it was understood I would hop to and address without him asking, I didn't. If he said, "Man, we sure are low on ice," I didn't get my keys and go buy ice. I didn't need ice. He wasn't affectionate, so I stopped initiating the prefunctory goodnight peck. He eventually asked if I was okay, that I seemed distant. I just told him that I was conserving energy because not having my needs met was draining.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> Thing is....*no one* has said to treat your spouse like crap.


Some of the stuff I have read did boggle my mind a little bit but I understand that perhaps there is no other recourse in some situations. To me, using financial leverage seems not right (e.g. withdrawing income from family by quitting my job to make a point in a relationship would not be that different or far off from hiring an escort and pay them to be nice to me, as the equivalent opposite). Proper foundations would be missing if this ever became a workable solution in my situation. But I understand I cannot extrapolate this onto others and respect what others decide to do, even if I don't agree with it.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> Some of the stuff I have read did boggle my mind a little bit but I understand that perhaps there is no other recourse in some situations. To me, using financial leverage seems not right (e.g. withdrawing income from family by quitting my job to make a point in a relationship would not be that different or far off from hiring an escort and pay them to be nice to me, as the equivalent opposite). Proper foundations would be missing if this ever became a workable solution in my situation. But I understand I cannot extrapolate this onto others and respect what others decide to do, even if I don't agree with it.


I read that as someone just sharing what THEY did, not recommending people quit their jobs as a general tactic. That probably only worked because this person was such a solid provider to begin with. If my ex had decided to quit his job to get my attention, I'd just have thought, "Sigh...well, there goes ANOTHER one of his jobs...."


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

GreenOrb said:


> Thanks for the feedback Prime. Feels like our wives are similar. Dirty talk probably not out of my comfort zone, but I think if I tried it on her right now she’d ask what the hell I was doing. Does it work on yours? Right now she balks even at the word ****. I’ve bought her some dirty novels to read so maybe that will open her eyes a bit.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


PS: I don't think I have ever really appreciated how little sex has to do with the actual physical act (which can be performed by a monkey; in fact a monkey will probably be better at it). But guiding someone (or them letting you guide them) through a chasm of their own fears, repressions, fantasies and desires is something entirely different.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

GreenOrb said:


> She mentioned it again this morning. We weren’t even talking about sex and suddenly she just said that she was now off duty for next little while. I said that sex was good for us and she wasn’t off duty, and she replied that she knew I enjoyed sex but *it didn’t do much for her*.
> 
> And this is the bit I don’t get with her. Unless she is as good an actress as Meg Ryan, she quite clearly enjoyed it last night, but she seems completely unwilling to admit it. Is she trying to convince herself that sex is something good girls don’t do and she mustn’t admit to liking it?


Still sounds like classic responsive desire to me. When she's aroused, she feels desire and sex is a priority. When she's not aroused, she has no desire and sex is the farthest thing from her mind and low priority.

But what I think you should latch onto is the statement I bolded above. You NEED to make sex do more for her. Improve your current repertoire and learn new techniques. Make sex all about HER sometimes without orgasm for you, so she internalizes that sex isn't just to get you off, but that you consider it to also be for her pleasure. Develop habits of keeping sex in the back of her mind, but not through just talking drily about it; kiss her passionately then walk away, caress her in passing, touch her non-sexual erogenous zones, etc. Catch her when something else has her aroused, like if you are watching a movie and a sex scene comes up, or she's reading a book, if romance or erotica is her thing.

And yeah, the idea that good women don't get bad between the sheets is deeply ingrained in many circles. You need to get her comfortable enough to be able to talk about it with you, maybe with a professional who can encourage her that sex is completely normal, because she won't believe it coming from you.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> But what I think you should latch onto is the statement I bolded above. You NEED to make sex do more for her. Improve your current repertoire and learn new techniques. Make sex all about HER sometimes without orgasm for you, so she internalizes that sex isn't just to get you off, but that you consider it to also be for her pleasure. Develop habits of keeping sex in the back of her mind, but not through just talking drily about it; kiss her passionately then walk away, caress her in passing, touch her non-sexual erogenous zones, etc. Catch her when something else has her aroused, like if you are watching a movie and a sex scene comes up, or she's reading a book, if romance or erotica is her thing.


Oh man, that all sounds so good.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

If only it were that easy. 



Hopeful Cynic said:


> But what I think you should latch onto is the statement I bolded above. You NEED to make sex do more for her.
> She tells me she's happy the way it is. Doesn't want to try new things that may make it more enjoyable for her.
> 
> Improve your current repertoire and learn new techniques.
> ...


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Since she made an appearance on another thread, I would love to hear @Anon Pink's thoughts.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> Since she made an appearance on another thread, I would love to hear @Anon Pink's thoughts.


I think the way you guys are coaching GreenOrb is perfect!




GreenOrb said:


> far as I'm aware my wife has never had any trauma. She says her mother is quite similar so I think it just runs in the family. Sometimes I get a hug returned, but often she squirms away saying she has things to do. Whenever I hug her in bed I almost always get no response, which makes me feel like a clingy spare part.


Clingy affection is annoying, especially when also raising two little ones. Having said that, being affectionless would also be apparent in her parenting style. Does she freely and frequently touch and soothe your little ones? Does she smooth their hair while talking with them? Does she use soft eye contact with them? Comparing your wife’s mothering affection to other mothers you’ve seen, is she similarly engaged? If so, your wife is not opposed to touch or intimatacy (intimacy of the non sexual sort) but perhaps only sees affection as a duty of parenting and not something that can/should be offered freely between spouses.

I’m sorry but I think touch is a vital trait among all mammals and when people attempt to say that this is just how they are they are asking others to be uncomfortable so that they can be comfortable.

Also, I’m not convinced your wife has not experienced any type of sexual trauma in her childhood. A cold, affection-less, critical, mother combined with a nasty over reaction to normal childhood masturbation would certainly be enough to shut down your wife developing a comfort with her sexuality. 

So again, how is she with your little ones? They are certainly old enough to be exploring their bodies, and careless enough to do it openly, how does your wife respond? How does she approach their nudity? Must they be dressed or does she allow them to run naked through the house as they avoid bath/bed time? (Ah I miss those little naked behinds running away until I promise a bubble bath and not just a bath)

As assess your wife’s affection level with the kids do you see a consistency of coldness? 




> Although we were in our 20s then and also got drunk together a lot which often seemed to make her much more up for sex. Thinking about it, most of our best sex has been alcohol fuelled. But then things died away, and I've known for a long time that she's not a particularly sexual person.


The booze relaxes her. Gives her strength and courage to let her sexuality out to play. So she’s not “just not into touchy” and is actually inhibiting herself away from touch.

Does she will she admit that?







GreenOrb said:


> I had postponed our date night to the weekend, but in the end I couldn’t wait that long so I tried it on tonight and we just had sex. The sex was good, but there are still some things about the way G2’s brain seems to work that confuse the hell out of me.
> 
> Based on some of the advice I’ve had here, I completely changed my approach tonight. Given she apparently has responsive desire I decided to do everything I could to get her to respond, and throw in as much domination as I felt I could pull off without coming across as false.
> 
> ...


Well done! Just reading that was hot! Awesome awesome awesome!!!!

But then she had to shut it down. She enjoyed it, but she wasn’t supposed to enjoy it so now she is going to preempt your next attempt at gentle domination.

She is not allowed to be sexual. That’s what she thinks. You have to challenge that attitude.



> So this feels like a step in the right direction. But during the whole build up I felt like I had to push her pretty damn hard to get anywhere, and it seemed like a balancing act. If I pushed too hard I felt like I was going to annoy her and she would then just say no. Even as we were going upstairs she was still saying she hadn’t made her mind up. And from the way she was saying it I believed her.
> 
> So is this just some kind of defence mechanism against her guilt issues? And if I now always behave in this way, will I start getting more sex out of her? Or did I just get lucky tonight and for once catch her in the right mood?
> 
> ...


You probably got lucky a little bit. She probably was aware that she needed to stop refusing sex and she probably also responded a little bit to the gentle domination. You would have known if she responded a LOT to the gentle domination so it’s unlikely your wife needs to be dominated or is submissive at all.

When a woman says only men get anything out of sex that is a glaring red flag! What that red flag means.... only your wife knows but ignoring that red flag is not advisable.

Your wife has issues, intimacy issues, and they will prevent your marriage from becoming what it could be. You can do all sorts of interpersonal work, and you should because you’re going to need inner strength, but it won’t affect your sex life unless your wife works on her issues. She has to admit them, own them, and work them out of her life. If she refuses you only have two choices, accept it or detach from the marriage as much as you are able.

Both you and your wife individually answer:
Describe your ideal sex life?
What do you want your marriage to look like right now, 5 years from now, when they kids are in college or grown up? How are chores handled ideally? How is social time divvied up, ideally? Do each of you have friend time or do you have couple friend time? How does sex fit into those changing images?
How should we solve a problem of different ideals?

Ask your wife:
Are you honestly content with our sex life?
Are you content with our level of affection toward each other?
What kind of sex life so you imagine our son will have with his wife? What about our daughter with her husband? 

Your wife will probably hide behind half truths and lies as she answers these questions but hopefully they will spark some private thinking and maybe she will wonder if it is normal to have to be drunk to enjoy sex. Hint: it isn’t, it’s a sign of inhibition and prohibition.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

GreenOrb said:


> And this is the bit I don’t get with her. Unless she is as good an actress as Meg Ryan, she quite clearly enjoyed it last night, but she seems completely unwilling to admit it.


Gonna let you in on a little secret. The more she moans and groans and acts like you're rocking her world, the quicker you'll climax and get off of her.

Not that I'VE ever done that, or anything.

I read it somewhere. :grin2:


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Gonna let you in on a little secret. The more she moans and groans and acts like you're rocking her world, the quicker you'll climax and get off of her.
> 
> Not that I'VE ever done that, or anything.
> 
> I read it somewhere. :grin2:


oh... is THAT why my wife is so vocal during sex? huh, after all this time i would have thought that she would have learned by now that it just makes it stretch out longer and longer...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

She is directly saying it isn’t that good for her - the morning after when the experience is fresh in her mind. 

It is dangerous and disrespectful to dismiss those comments. 

In bed she is providing him feedback that a normal person would interpret as meaning enjoyment. The very next day she is saying: 
- I need a break for a while (unspecified duration means as long as possible) and 
- It wasn’t that fun for me

So there is a massive contradiction which needs to be addressed. My approach would be:
- For 15+ years I’ve ignored a huge behavioral contradiction which is: In the moment you act like it is fun, despite this being an activity that you work very hard to minimize. That wasn’t fair to either of us. 
- Of those two messages - (1) I like it - (2) I dislike it - I have always chosen to believe the former. 
- I now realize the true message was that you dislike it. 

Thing is - if you pretend to like stuff that - you really don’t - how am I ever going to make this better for you?

No complaining, no whining. No threatening. Just say what is true and then ask her that question. And then stop talking. Completely. Don’t fill the silence with nervous chatter. Don’t try to answer for her. Just relax, be patient and be silent. 

If she accuses you of trying to corner her - just shake your head and reply with: This is about comprehension, not cornering. I’m not willing to continue to blunder about in the dark. 






Hopeful Cynic said:


> Still sounds like classic responsive desire to me. When she's aroused, she feels desire and sex is a priority. When she's not aroused, she has no desire and sex is the farthest thing from her mind and low priority.
> 
> But what I think you should latch onto is the statement I bolded above. You NEED to make sex do more for her. Improve your current repertoire and learn new techniques. Make sex all about HER sometimes without orgasm for you, so she internalizes that sex isn't just to get you off, but that you consider it to also be for her pleasure. Develop habits of keeping sex in the back of her mind, but not through just talking drily about it; kiss her passionately then walk away, caress her in passing, touch her non-sexual erogenous zones, etc. Catch her when something else has her aroused, like if you are watching a movie and a sex scene comes up, or she's reading a book, if romance or erotica is her thing.
> 
> And yeah, the idea that good women don't get bad between the sheets is deeply ingrained in many circles. You need to get her comfortable enough to be able to talk about it with you, maybe with a professional who can encourage her that sex is completely normal, because she won't believe it coming from you.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> She is directly saying it isn’t that good for her - the morning after when the experience is fresh in her mind.
> 
> It is dangerous and disrespectful to dismiss those comments.
> 
> ...


I like this approach. I've been reading along and taking it all in here but I'm probably more in line with your wife's side of the equation than yours, so I've kept quiet because I wasn't sure I had anything of value to add. 

I just wanted to address something here...

It is entirely possible that she does not know what would make it better for her. It is possible that she finds it difficult to get pleasure from sex, and therefore does not really know how to instruct you. 

You should absolutely probe for answers here and be open to any feedback she gives you. 

It's just that... in my opinion... If she KNEW what she liked and wanted, and you've been married for a billion years, I am inclined to believe she would have told you by now. 

Maybe not. I could be wrong. 

I have had an odd relationship with sex, not due to abuse or anything malicious... just finding it very difficult at times. In the distant past that meant I would sometimes fake pleasure. It was to make myself feel more normal, I was also young and immature and didn't want to hurt my partners feelings. But I had a very long time in life where I felt extremely abnormal about my sexual response and had a lot of shame about it. 

If she says "I don't know" when you ask her what would make it better for her, she could be telling the truth. 

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

Anon Pink said:


> Also, I’m not convinced your wife has not experienced any type of sexual trauma in her childhood. A cold, affection-less, critical, mother combined with a nasty over reaction to normal childhood masturbation would certainly be enough to shut down your wife developing a comfort with her sexuality.


I hadn't considered this possibility. I guess it's possible her parents instilled in her some kind of shame around sex. Although having said that, she is very close to her parents and they behave more like very good friends than parents, something that is quite alien to me.



Anon Pink said:


> So again, how is she with your little ones? They are certainly old enough to be exploring their bodies, and careless enough to do it openly, how does your wife respond? How does she approach their nudity? Must they be dressed or does she allow them to run naked through the house as they avoid bath/bed time? (Ah I miss those little naked behinds running away until I promise a bubble bath and not just a bath)
> 
> As assess your wife’s affection level with the kids do you see a consistency of coldness?


I don't. She is great with our kids, and has no problem with them running around naked. Although it is quite a different matter with herself, she is very body shy.

She is quite affectionate with them too, will give them a kiss and cuddle before they go to school, etc. Although, our daughter is very cuddly, sometimes a little too much for my wife who will cuddle her for a bit on the sofa, but will then need some space.

I have asked her why she seems to be fairly affectionate with the kids but not with me, and she says affection towards the kids is more of a motherly affection, so just comes more naturally to her.



Anon Pink said:


> The booze relaxes her. Gives her strength and courage to let her sexuality out to play. So she’s not “just not into touchy” and is actually inhibiting herself away from touch.
> 
> Does she will she admit that?


She's never admitted that, just tells me she's not very touchy feely, just like her mother (she told me once it apparently frustrates her father too!). I would say that in general she is quite an inhibited person. Despite being very attractive (although I guess I'm biased) she doesn't like showing her body off, and often gets anxious that people don't like her or might make fun of her behind her back. I think she maybe had a difficult schooling, although I didn't know her then. My impression was she was very intelligent and hard working as a teen, which meant she didn't fit in at the school she went to. Once she got to university she seemed to spread her wings more.




Anon Pink said:


> Well done! Just reading that was hot! Awesome awesome awesome!!!!


Lol. Thanks. Have to say I enjoyed the chase. 



Anon Pink said:


> Your wife has issues, intimacy issues, and they will prevent your marriage from becoming what it could be. You can do all sorts of interpersonal work, and you should because you’re going to need inner strength, but it won’t affect your sex life unless your wife works on her issues. She has to admit them, own them, and work them out of her life. If she refuses you only have two choices, accept it or detach from the marriage as much as you are able.
> 
> Both you and your wife individually answer:
> Describe your ideal sex life?
> ...


Thanks, I will ask her and see what I get back. Although it won't be easy. She seems to hate talking about anything intimate, be it sex or just general relationship discussions. That's perhaps part of the reason this has gone on for so long. I know I've had a very big part to play, but at times I have tried to talk to her and got nowhere. She will either change the subject or say she doesn't want to talk right now. And not wanting to rock the boat I never pushed back. But I'm going to have to now.

I think I will need to be careful how I do it so that I at least get a decent set of answers from her.


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

MEM2020 said:


> She is directly saying it isn’t that good for her - the morning after when the experience is fresh in her mind.
> 
> It is dangerous and disrespectful to dismiss those comments.
> 
> ...


So I asked her straight tonight - "why do you seem to enjoy sex but then the next morning say it does nothing for you".

Her response was that she didn't realise she said it does nothing for her. She then admitted that she did enjoy sex when she is in the moment, but she doesn't normally think about it much otherwise, which I guess is classic responsive desire. She did also say that there were other things liked doing more, like having a really engaging conversation, or having a really great meal. That is perhaps an indication that I'm not that great in bed. Posting here has made me realise that sex is much less a physical act, and much more about the way it is played out. Perhaps if keep approaching sex the way I did last night she might start liking it more.

I also get the impression she never had a great lover before me, so she has never perhaps had anyone to show her how great sex can really be.

As a note, before I asked her the question tonight, she once again out of the blue joked that we wouldn't be having sex tonight. While that's not entirely what I want to hear, it's not really like her to keep mentioning sex at all, so I'm beginning to wonder if I am getting her to think about sex more, which potentially could be a good thing. Or maybe I'm just kidding myself.

I did later say, that while I love her sense of humour, it can hurt a little when she makes these jokes. She has made these kinds of jokes before, and I have probably laughed at them, so in some way I have probably condoned them in the first place. We'll see if she makes them again.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

GreenOrb said:


> She is quite affectionate with them too, will give them a kiss and cuddle before they go to school, etc. *Although, our daughter is very cuddly, sometimes a little too much for my wife who will cuddle her for a bit on the sofa, but will then need some space.*
> 
> I have asked her why she seems to be fairly affectionate with the kids but not with me, and she says affection towards the kids is more of a motherly affection, so just comes more naturally to her.



What, exactly, is too cuddly? Does your wife need space from your son? Is your wife keeping her daughter at arms length as she was kept at arms length? Are you okay with this?

From being around in SIM so long I suspect there is a correlation between men who are unsatisfied with their sex lives and distant wives who are excellent mothers regardless of their apparent dislike for touch.


I should have been more circumspect on drawing comparisons between parenting affection and spousal affection. A lot more variables involved in spousal affection. It’s just something to be aware of, not draw conclusions from, by itself.






> She's never admitted that, just tells me she's not very touchy feely, just like her mother (she told me once it apparently frustrates her father too!). I would say that in general she is quite an inhibited person. Despite being very attractive (although I guess I'm biased) she doesn't like showing her body off, and often gets anxious that people don't like her or might make fun of her behind her back. I think she maybe had a difficult schooling, although I didn't know her then. My impression was she was very intelligent and hard working as a teen, which meant she didn't fit in at the school she went to. Once she got to university she seemed to spread her wings more.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I’m sorry to say this but it is highly unlikely talking will get you anywhere. Understanding her better won’t help because it seems she doesn’t fully understand herself, and possibly doesn’t want to. How to get her to want to understand herself better, to honestly assess if she is happy with her marriage right now....that is the tricky part.

And that is why you’ve been challenged to destabilize the marriage, because if she is content and happy why ever should she wonder about doing anything differently?

Make yourself strong inside. Understand yourself and what you need vs what you want. 

Sometimes the best boundaries are vague and undefined. Make them guess, watch, listen and figure it out. People can change. But only if they really want to.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

@GreenOrb, 

something you might try that would serve a few purposes... one, to get her thinking about sex in a more fun and positive way, two, to give her an experience where it is(sort of) all about her, and three, show a bit of dominance in the process...

every so often, i play a bit of a game with my wife. i will tell my her that i just want to see her have an orgasm. i will get a vibrator out (hitachi magic wand works great for this) and will just place it right between her legs and turn it on. if she fights me, ill pin her down and wrestle her, telling her that the only way im getting up is if i get to see and hear her having an quivering as she has an orgasm. when she gets tired of struggling, she will acquiesce. i will then tell her to fantasize about the sexiest thing she can think of, while im still mostly in physical control of her upper body. after her orgasm, i smile, get up, and tell her that she was sexy as hell and i will be thinking of her getting herself off the next time I get MYSELF off. 

she ends up thinking about how I am thinking about her when i masturbate, which gets her thinking about sex even more, and turns her on. makes her feel sexy, desirable, and a bit naughty, without her having to feel like she has to put on a show.

its one of the ways we keep sex fun. i usually spring this on her when she is relaxing. it doesnt take very long, less time than a quickie, and has the desired effect of keeping the motor running, so to speak. 

just a thought.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

She is not joking. 

And she absolutely knows that she said it did nothing for her. This is a major friction point in your marriage and her comments are not random. She is bombarding you with a message - which is - back off. 

GO,
I’m not convinced she isn’t acting in bed. It’s one thing to have responsive desire. But this level of resistance to increased frequency means that some aspect of it - is not good for her. 

Maybe she is afraid to say. You claim to want feedback but - if you really want feedback you focus on this huge contradiction between her behavior during and her desire to keep this to once every six to eight weeks. 

She says it does nothing for her - and then you challenge that. You don’t explore it - you challenge it. So she withdraws the comment. How does that help. 

And does nothing is code for it feels bad. Sex is rarely neutral, it is mostly either good or bad. 




GreenOrb said:


> So I asked her straight tonight - "why do you seem to enjoy sex but then the next morning say it does nothing for you".
> 
> Her response was that she didn't realise she said it does nothing for her. She then admitted that she did enjoy sex when she is in the moment, but she doesn't normally think about it much otherwise, which I guess is classic responsive desire. She did also say that there were other things liked doing more, like having a really engaging conversation, or having a really great meal. That is perhaps an indication that I'm not that great in bed. Posting here has made me realise that sex is much less a physical act, and much more about the way it is played out. Perhaps if keep approaching sex the way I did last night she might start liking it more.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

She knows what a big deal this is for GO. Sort of. 

At some level she feels aggrieved. Oh yes - aggrieved she feels. 

While in theory - marriage is based on vows. In practice it is based on precedent. Their precedent is that:
- She’s the house Alpha
- He’s been a hybrid partner/child by being disorganized and not so helpful in family leadership

They have some core respect issues. 

I am pretty sure - if we watched them interact we would see some bad dynamics. Like her saying one thing while doing the opposite and GO just nodding. 

Instead of fixing those first - he is focused on fixing the hardest thing first. 

I’m gonna do a thread on this soon - but it’s better to be an excellent beta than a mediocre alpha. 





inmyprime said:


> It could very well be that she *means *what she says. Have you asked her what it is that could make the experience for her more enjoyable? And have you told her whether she is aware how much you suffer from that lack of attention and what it is doing to the health of your marriage? Maybe find a couple of threads on TAM with stories about similar situations and what it does to people/couples and ask her to read them. Holingontoit's thread is pretty insightful but there are myriad similar threads like this.
> 
> I wouldn't be afraid asking questions like that and if you feel she is not really answering the question or avoiding the conversation or doesn't seem bothered by you expressing concerns, it is at this point that I would (if I was in your shoes) steer the conversation more towards step 2 (from my post further up).
> Which means basically stating that you are concerned and worried that you are not sure that you will be able to handle those kinds of withdrawals and lack of affection from her in the long term and that you are someone who loves and adores her and it is a torture to not be able to not have that kind of affection returned in any shape or form.
> ...


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

My question to the OP.

How many times have you heard your wife say that sex doesn't do much for her?

I can promise you, if those words were to ever come out of my wife's mouth that I would be doing some hard core investigating as to why she said that. 

I will say this much, that sex doesn't do much for her is not necessarily a damning implication of you, but it also just might be.

In order to find the truth, we have to be able to ask the hard questions and face the fact that we may not like what we find.


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## Akinaura (Dec 6, 2011)

As'laDain said:


> @GreenOrb,
> 
> something you might try that would serve a few purposes... one, to get her thinking about sex in a more fun and positive way, two, to give her an experience where it is(sort of) all about her, and three, show a bit of dominance in the process...
> 
> ...


Other half of this guy here...what he is talking about essentially takes the "sex" out of sex. But it releases all the lovely chemicals that an orgasm releases. One of them being oxytocin, the love or bonding hormone. 

Now with me and Asla, I can honestly say when we first got married, sex didn't do anything for me. There was no emotional intimacy in the act, so why the hell should I have any emotional investment in it? After Asla started doing things like this, treating the situation as me focused (what I thought at the time), it started changing my attitude. I started thinking it was okay to have fun with sex, it was okay to invest a little emotion into it. Hell, I even started mentioning that we weren't going to have sex that day more often...of course I was teasing him, seeing his reaction, but I also didn't know at time how my words were coming across.

Nowadays? I can straight up tell him no sex tonight, and he will tell me "Oh and do you have a bridge to sell me too?" He knows me too well, lol. I will antagonize him somedays, just to see his eyes light up with the "How dare you" mock idnignation, lol.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Sorry for my ADD.

She is aggrieved because she is used to calling the shots. And having pretty much total control over sex. Fifteen years of precedent support the notion that she is running the marriage both in and out the bedroom. 

So this could be more about retaining her death grip on the steering wheel - than anything else. 






MEM2020 said:


> She knows what a big deal this is for GO. Sort of.
> 
> At some level she feels aggrieved. Oh yes - aggrieved she feels.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Reason that most ‘talks’ about a broken sex life go badly is this. 

The HD person, feels rejected (unloved) which makes them anxious -> which makes them self focused as opposed to partner focused -> which creates a situation where their partner simply wants the conversation to end as quickly as possible

I can only speak to this stuff having experienced the opposite of it. M2 has talked about stuff - where - she says what is true without any goal other than to be understood. Or to better understand me. 




Windwalker said:


> My question to the OP.
> 
> How many times have you heard your wife say that sex doesn't do much for her?
> 
> ...


----------



## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> Reason that most ‘talks’ about a broken sex life go badly is this.
> 
> The HD person, feels rejected (unloved) which makes them anxious -> which makes them self focused as opposed to partner focused -> which creates a situation where their partner simply wants the conversation to end as quickly as possible
> 
> I can only speak to this stuff having experienced the opposite of it. M2 has talked about stuff - where - she says what is true without any goal other than to be understood. Or to better understand me.


Excellent point, and very close to the direction I was going. 

I didn't really want to get into the "weeds" with my post. Hence why I didn't really go into the discussion part. 

I just wanted to point out that the truth and what our ego wants to hear are many many times not the same thing. 

I would have rather waited to hear back the answer to my question.

Besides, there's plenty here that are more capable than I of expounding on my original thought.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> Sorry for my ADD.
> 
> She is aggrieved because she is used to calling the shots. And having pretty much total control over sex. Fifteen years of precedent support the notion that she is running the marriage both in and out the bedroom.
> 
> So this could be more about retaining her death grip on the steering wheel - than anything else.


This.

What GO has to figure out is if he can live with it.

I don't know that she will give it up.


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

MEM2020 said:


> She is not joking.
> 
> And she absolutely knows that she said it did nothing for her. This is a major friction point in your marriage and her comments are not random. She is bombarding you with a message - which is - back off.
> 
> ...


So I didn't phrase the question quite as bluntly as I put in my first post. I need to remember to be more accurate.

What I said was "sex for me last night was fantastic, and I also felt like you enjoyed it too, but then when we were talking this morning you said that sex in general does nothing for you. This confused me and as your husband who loves you I don't want to be making you do things you don't want to do or don't like to do. So can you help me understand the apparent contradiction."

Then she gave the response I explained, that she didn't realise she had put it that way, and that she did in fact enjoy it, even if there were other things she preferred doing. She did also mention perhaps a couple of months ago that she had enjoyed some sex we had, so I think there is a ray of light here.

I may still be wrong, but I don't think she is acting in bed. I say that for 2 reasons:
- Sometimes she doesn't act. For example during the lousy sex we had a few weeks back, she made almost not a sound the entire time (I won't be doing this again by the way). So my sense is that she does let me know when she's enjoying it or not, or more to the point, she has no choice, she simply reacts to what is happening to her.
- I think she is too inhibited to be able to act during a situation like sex.

And I think her inhibition may be part of reason she doesn't enjoy it as much as she could/should. I think she finds sex very awkward and finds it very hard to just let herself go. A few examples:
- She never lets me see her vagina. The first time I tried oral sex she instantly covered herself up. The only time I have managed it was when she was very drunk
- She doesn't like me looking at her during sex, I think she prefers it if I am on top with my head buried in the pillow next to her head. If I hoist myself up and look at her face for a few moments, she will often get uncomfortable and tell me to stop. She certainly doesn't do eye contact
- The other night when we had good sex, she stopped me half way through and told me to put a condom on. We are both in our 40s, but she's not on BC so better to be safe. I just knelt up a little grabbed a condom and put it on right in front of her, something that doesn't bother me. But she looked quite uncomfortable, and crossed her arms across her body, in effect trying to cover herself up somewhat, even though I could still see everything.

But to some degree I'm guessing. And you're right I need to explore this. I need to ask her straight what it is about sex that she does or doesn't enjoy, and whether there is anything we can do about it. The other problem I have is these conversations are very difficult with her since she doesn't like talking about feelings, sex or any kind of relationship chat. So I can normally only get so far before she shuts the conversation down. And then I may need to wait a day or 2 before I try and approach her again. If I overdo it then she just gets annoyed and then I'll get nowhere. Or maybe there is a way of making her open up that I haven't discovered yet? I don't know.


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

Windwalker said:


> My question to the OP.
> 
> How many times have you heard your wife say that sex doesn't do much for her?
> 
> ...


Probably only once or twice. She did admit a few weeks back that she had enjoyed some previous sex we'd had. So I do get mixed messages.

I agree I need to ask some potentially hard questions. And I'm willing to face whatever comes back at me.


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

Akinaura said:


> Other half of this guy here...what he is talking about essentially takes the "sex" out of sex. But it releases all the lovely chemicals that an orgasm releases. One of them being oxytocin, the love or bonding hormone.
> 
> Now with me and Asla, I can honestly say when we first got married, sex didn't do anything for me. There was no emotional intimacy in the act, so why the hell should I have any emotional investment in it? After Asla started doing things like this, treating the situation as me focused (what I thought at the time), it started changing my attitude. I started thinking it was okay to have fun with sex, it was okay to invest a little emotion into it. Hell, I even started mentioning that we weren't going to have sex that day more often...of course I was teasing him, seeing his reaction, but I also didn't know at time how my words were coming across.
> 
> Nowadays? I can straight up tell him no sex tonight, and he will tell me "Oh and do you have a bridge to sell me too?" He knows me too well, lol. I will antagonize him somedays, just to see his eyes light up with the "How dare you" mock idnignation, lol.


I will definitely give this a go. I'm almost certainly guilty of making sex too much about me given my focus on it recently.


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

I just wanted to thank everyone who has posted so far. I didn't expect this level of response, and it has so far definitely had a positive impact on my life.


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## frustratedinphx (Dec 29, 2007)

I haven't read all the pages (there are a lot...), but one thing I haven't seen is how much time you spend talking with her or doing non-sexual things. Sharing, talking about your day, just connecting. Emotional intimacy. I don't want anyone I'm not emotionally connected with touching me, let alone touching me in *that way*. I LOVE sex, but my husband is & has been very absent from the "me" part my life. I could create emotional connection with a complete stranger because there are always things to relate with another person. The complexities of life, having a home, kids, responsibilities can suck any relationship dry- especially in a marriage where one spouse has to pick up the slack of the other for another for a long time.

Have you tried courting your wife? Treat her like she's your girlfriend. Steal her away to be wined and dined (or whatever it is that did it for you enough to want to get married). It doesn't have to be over the top. Just like pennies added up equal quarters & dollars eventually, maybe she'll see your genuine effort and want to connect with you for the act alone.


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

frustratedinphx said:


> I haven't read all the pages (there are a lot...), but one thing I haven't seen is how much time you spend talking with her or doing non-sexual things. Sharing, talking about your day, just connecting. Emotional intimacy. I don't want anyone I'm not emotionally connected with touching me, let alone touching me in *that way*. I LOVE sex, but my husband is & has been very absent from the "me" part my life. I could create emotional connection with a complete stranger because there are always things to relate with another person. The complexities of life, having a home, kids, responsibilities can suck any relationship dry- especially in a marriage where one spouse has to pick up the slack of the other for another for a long time.
> 
> Have you tried courting your wife? Treat her like she's your girlfriend. Steal her away to be wined and dined (or whatever it is that did it for you enough to want to get married). It doesn't have to be over the top. Just like pennies added up equal quarters & dollars eventually, maybe she'll see your genuine effort and want to connect with you for the act alone.


This is something that had been absent for a long time. During my 5 years working far from home, we yoyo'd between periods of talking, and periods where we didn't get on at all, so it was very difficult during this time to flirt or just chat.

This is something I have been trying hard to bring back to our relationship now I'm near home. We have finally started to get on great again (no fights or feuds in the last 2 months or so) so it has been far easier. During the day when I'm at work I've been texting her, sometimes jokes, sometimes just asking her how her day is going. Previously the only texts we ever exchanged were mundane texts about dinner or children.

I also make sure I always asked her how her day has been when I get in, and let her talk as much as she wants. In the last few months I've rediscovered how much I love talking to her, so this has actually now become very easy for me. The next step is to maybe arrange a surprise dinner or getaway for the 2 of us if I can get some childcare.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This post is excellent. 

Don’t ask her why she dislikes sex. You already kind of answered with this post. 

Her body image issues/general anxiety levels are quite high. 

As a general rule - if you want a high degree of honesty - don’t start with: sex was fantastic for me last night. 

Doing that, makes it much harder for her to say anything negative. 





GreenOrb said:


> So I didn't phrase the question quite as bluntly as I put in my first post. I need to remember to be more accurate.
> 
> What I said was "sex for me last night was fantastic, and I also felt like you enjoyed it too, but then when we were talking this morning you said that sex in general does nothing for you. This confused me and as your husband who loves you I don't want to be making you do things you don't want to do or don't like to do. So can you help me understand the apparent contradiction."
> 
> ...


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

MEM2020 said:


> She knows what a big deal this is for GO. Sort of.
> 
> At some level she feels aggrieved. Oh yes - aggrieved she feels.
> 
> ...





MEM2020 said:


> Sorry for my ADD.
> 
> She is aggrieved because she is used to calling the shots. And having pretty much total control over sex. Fifteen years of precedent support the notion that she is running the marriage both in and out the bedroom.
> 
> So this could be more about retaining her death grip on the steering wheel - than anything else.





farsidejunky said:


> This.
> 
> What GO has to figure out is if he can live with it.
> 
> I don't know that she will give it up.


MEM, as ever you are dead right. 6 months ago G2 ran the show. I brought in most of the money, and was a dad to the kids at the weekend, but that was it.

This is the part I changed first. Since working nearer home I have been doing my fair share round the house, doing things for G2 that I think she'll appreciate, and getting things organised (holidays, cat care, etc). She used to have to remind of just about everything which used to annoy her and hence why we often fell out when I thought she was nagging. Her reminding has now dropped to virtually zero, and is a big part of why we are getting on well now. She has said she is pleased she no longer has to remind me of anything, although I probably need to get to the point where she thinks she doesn't have to think of things at all, since she knows I will just do them. Hopefully this will come with time as she trusts me more that I have permanently changed.

But it may also be that she has been used to being in charge for so long that she won't give it up easily. But right now our relationship feels far more balanced.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

> Sorry for my ADD.
> 
> She is aggrieved because she is used to calling the shots. And having pretty much total control over sex. *Fifteen years of precedent support the notion that she is running the marriage both in and out the bedroom. *
> 
> So this could be more about retaining her death grip on the steering wheel - than anything else.


And, she may be holding onto resentment over this fact. I was the deprived spouse in my marriage, but I also had a lot of resentment about his passivity in general. To be blunt: I didn't get married so *I *could be the man. And I'm not talking about a wallet here. I have always worked. I am talking about leading the relationship. I shouldered EVERYTHING.

A woman who had to do the heavy lifting with a passive man might not respond well when he decided it was gonna be "his way or the highway" in the bedroom.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

GreenOrb said:


> Probably only once or twice. She did admit a few weeks back that she had enjoyed some previous sex we'd had. So I do get mixed messages.
> 
> I agree I need to ask some potentially hard questions. And I'm willing to face whatever comes back at me.


I read all your responses.
Because your wife is so inhibited the may be difficult to get a straight answer from her.

The next time she makes a statement about going off sex like she did the other day look her in the eye and say this.

"Wife, we have been married for 15 years. I know there have been a lot of contributing factors to our dynamic. However, I have heard you say that sex doesn't do much for you. Sex is not something I do to you, nor are you a mastabatory aid. Sex is something we share as an intimate experience for both of us. So what is it that I am not doing or doing wrong that can make sex a better experience for you. Anything less than complete honesty in this answer doesn't help the relationship."

Then SHUT UP AND LISTEN. Don't let her derail the conversation. Just listen. Anytime the subject comes up gently remind her that there is an outstanding question that you haven't heard an answer for.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I love this concept. And I love the first half of the execution.

But - instead of asking her for ‘the answer’, I’d say: Just as I’ve made effort to improve outside the bedroom, I’d like to find a way to make things better for you - when we connect - and I’m probably gonna need some honest feedback for that. 

He needs to get her to agree to collaborate. She has clearly not yet decided that collaboration is the best path for her. 

The first step is to request alignment.




Windwalker said:


> I read all your responses.
> Because your wife is so inhibited the may be difficult to get a straight answer from her.
> 
> The next time she makes a statement about going off sex like she did the other day look her in the eye and say this.
> ...


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> I love this concept. And I love the first half of the execution.
> 
> But - instead of asking her for ‘the answer’, I’d say: Just as I’ve made effort to improve outside the bedroom, I’d like to find a way to make things better for you - when we connect - and I’m probably gonna need some honest feedback for that.
> 
> ...


Hmm. Agreed. I can see the value in that. The one thing I wouldn't want to do is add pressure. I can certainly see how expecting an answer would add pressure.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

You'll get an answer. 

In psychology we call it the rationalization hamster approach - rationalization of bad choices in relationships.

Whether it resembles reality is a different story.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Windwalker said:


> I read all your responses.
> 
> Because your wife is so inhibited the may be difficult to get a straight answer from her.
> 
> ...




What if she says:

“Husband, there is nothing you are doing that is wrong. I’m not sure there is anything you can do that will make it better. In fact, it has probably nothing to do with you at all. I just don’t enjoy sex as much as you want me to. I appreciate you making me tea and helping around the house more but if you are expecting me to enjoy sex on demand in return, it is not an arrangement I would like to participate willingly”.

I doubt she speaks like that...but if I was writing a play, this would be a curious dialogue to have...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

More likely she'll rationalize something out of thin air and offer vague promises of things to come.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

john117 said:


> More likely she'll rationalize something out of thin air and offer vague promises of things to come.




Most probably. But you don’t think people mean that when they say those things? What if she really believes she would like to improve/change in this department?

She can try (and I’m sure she has tried) but unless it is really fun for her, she may fail. If she fails, it doesn’t mean she was planning to fail all along (as your posts sometimes imply).



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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

GreenOrb said:


> So I didn't phrase the question quite as bluntly as I put in my first post. I need to remember to be more accurate.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Difficult to comment since I’m also getting ‘mixed messages’ from you. 

What you described above is a woman who has inhibitions/hangups about sex (which is fairly common and which is the impression I initially got from your first post; though generally, as the woman gets older and becomes more comfortable with her body and in herself, the inhibitions subside and she begins to enjoy sex more. This doesn’t happen to every woman, but the majority). 

However in some of your previous posts, when you said that she would tell you that sex is not enjoyable for her at all and that she would be happy with having sex every 6 months or so, you describe someone who is saying these things while being fully aware that those things cut you like a knife. So it’s difficult to get a clear picture because I’m not sure you are getting a clear picture yourself. And as always, these things become like ‘Chinese whispers’ and advice becomes of little value because it may fit your perception and/or wishful thinking or it may not.

If you have a wife who is generally empathetic and self aware but has these hangups, you have a much better chance at succeeding. If she is not empathetic, then you don’t.

Ps: and btw to get a clearer picture, the most reliable way is to do more talking and less guessing. If you don’t think you can communicate that well, why don’t you guys find a couple’s counsellor. They can be pretty good with these things, getting couples to talk to each other. I think it might be a wise investment.

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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

GO,

Don’t ask your wife anything. 

I do information - for a living. Humans are mobile, talking billboards. Constantly broadcasting a stream of acoustic and visual messages. 

G2 gives you such good info. 

I’m share a quick story with you. One day I told M2: It feels bad to me, when you ask if I’m angry, when I know that you know I’m angry. Feels bad because it is a little bit like playing dumb. 

Can’t you just ask me: are you mad about xyz, or can you tell me why you are mad? 

So G2 is anxious and has body image issues. Those are big deals. Last night M2 made a soft initiation and I was anxious about a specific work event scheduled for this morning - so I declined. Anxiety is powerful. 

What do you do to help her relax before sex? 
How about room lighting? 
Why no vasectomy? 





Windwalker said:


> Hmm. Agreed. I can see the value in that. The one thing I wouldn't want to do is add pressure. I can certainly see how expecting an answer would add pressure.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Amen to this. 

Very insightful. Empathy is huge. 

I apologized to M2 three times last night - for - declining. But tonight I will bring a lot of heat. And afterwards I’ll tell her what I was anxious about last night and she will feel happy knowing that it wasn’t a lack of desire for her. 





inmyprime said:


> Difficult to comment since I’m also getting ‘mixed messages’ from you.
> 
> What you described above is a woman who has inhibitions/hangups about sex (which is fairly common and which is the impression I initially got from your first post; though generally, as the woman gets older and becomes more comfortable with her body, the inhibitions subside and she begins to enjoy sex more. This doesn’t happen to every woman, but the majority).
> 
> ...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> Amen to this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Good to hear you apologised...My wife would not have let me ‘off the hook’ so easily 

How come you didn’t tell her yesterday what you were anxious about? 
Just to avoid her second guessing the whole day today. These things can be very delicate...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

She initiated at 9:30 pm. And you are right, I should have told her. The thing is I was embarrassed about the thing I was anxious over. It was a schedule **** up totally my fault. Now that I’ve fixed it  . Easier to share. 








inmyprime said:


> Good to hear you apologised...My wife would not have let me ‘off the hook’ so easily
> 
> How come you didn’t tell her yesterday what you were anxious about?
> Just to avoid her second guessing the whole day today. These things can be very delicate...
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Just to clarify we have two plays we run. They are entirely symmetrical. The first is the it would be nice if you felt like connecting. The second is: Strip. 

M2 has declined the second play - once in 28 years. 

The second play is based on the first vow - the vow to love. So the ONLY acceptable response - when the other person calls that play - is you start shedding garments. 

Last night - she ran the ‘it would be nice’ play. 




inmyprime said:


> Good to hear you apologised...My wife would not have let me ‘off the hook’ so easily
> 
> How come you didn’t tell her yesterday what you were anxious about?
> Just to avoid her second guessing the whole day today. These things can be very delicate...
> ...


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> What if she says:
> 
> “Husband, there is nothing you are doing that is wrong. I’m not sure there is anything you can do that will make it better. In fact, it has probably nothing to do with you at all. I just don’t enjoy sex as much as you want me to. I appreciate you making me tea and helping around the house more but if you are expecting me to enjoy sex on demand in return, it is not an arrangement I would like to participate willingly”.
> 
> I doubt she speaks like that...but if I was writing a play, this would be a curious dialogue to have...


That is almost word for word what my wife told me. So I stopped having sex with her. A stronger man would have filed for divorce.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Holdingontoit said:


> That is almost word for word what my wife told me. So I stopped having sex with her. A stronger man would have filed for divorce.


I don't see it like that. I see that your love for your wife is so strong that you decided to stay with her, in spite of it. 
Even if you say it's completely not the case and self flagellate a lot..


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> What if she says:
> 
> “Husband, there is nothing you are doing that is wrong. I’m not sure there is anything you can do that will make it better. In fact, it has probably nothing to do with you at all. I just don’t enjoy sex as much as you want me to. I appreciate you making me tea and helping around the house more but if you are expecting me to enjoy sex on demand in return, it is not an arrangement I would like to participate willingly”.
> 
> ...



I can't speak for GO. I do know how I would respond and I would probably suggest this in reply. 

"Wife, while this is disappointing, I truly appreciate your honesty. There is no" you enjoying sex and much as I want you to. This is not a me situation. This isn't necessarily a you situation. This is an us situation and as such my main concern is that we enjoy our time in all things that we do. In this sentiment, my focus is on your comfort and enjoyment. I never asked nor demanded that you enjoyed sex on demand, nor is that the expectation. I will not ask you to do that which you don't want to do. It is quite saddening this the lack of a physical relationship will eventually cause the breakdown of the relationship. I do what I can, but I don't know that I can repress who I am indefinitely. Thank you for your honesty."

This isn't demanding answers nor solutions. This is just a simple statement of facts. That being said, I am not GO, nor is he me. I have no problem walking away from a marriage that is unfulfilling.

This is also hypothetical.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> Why no vasectomy?


That's a half million dollar question!


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Windwalker said:


> "Wife, while this is disappointing, I truly appreciate your honesty. There is no" you enjoying sex and much as I want you to. This is not a me situation. This isn't necessarily a you situation. This is an us situation and as such my main concern is that we enjoy our time in all things that we do. In this sentiment, my focus is on your comfort and enjoyment. I never asked nor demanded that you enjoyed sex on demand, nor is that the expectation. I will not ask you to do that which you don't want to do. It is quite saddening this the lack of a physical relationship *will eventually cause the breakdown of the relationship.* I do what I can, but I don't know that I can repress who I am indefinitely. Thank you for your honesty."


Yes, *exactly*. This is from my step no.2. It's a threat (as per bolded). Even if people don't agree that it's a threat (because of the phrasing) but it's a threat nonetheless. 

There are really only those 3 steps one can take. And the choice (power) will always be (and has always been) with the side that is not yielding to something that is asked of them.

Everything else is 'fun & games' or smokes and mirrors. Most spouses see through this and it pisses them off even more when the husband trying to obscure the issue. I always preferred the straight method. More importantly, the spouses prefer the straight method (generally).


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> Yes, *exactly*. This is from my step no.2. It's a threat (as per bolded). Even if people don't agree that it's a threat (because of the phrasing) but it's a threat nonetheless.
> 
> There are really only those 3 steps one can take. And the choice (power) will always be (and has always been) with the side that is not yielding to something that is asked of them.
> 
> Everything else is 'fun & games' or smokes and mirrors. Most spouses see through this and it pisses them off even more when the husband trying to obscure the issue. I always preferred the straight method. More importantly, the spouses prefer the straight method (generally).


I'll leave these for you.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/threat

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/truth

At times they can and are one in the same, other times they are not. I really don't know anything about your legal system, but in ours, much depends upon intent.

Ok. So you think you have the answer. Works for me. It's no hair off my back. I'll be honest, I didn't read the post you are referring to or didn't find it memorable. I for the most part, try to avoid these kind of threads as they really boil down to accept it, ***** about it, or leave. At the end of the day those are the choices. This thread is for GO, not me. Because unlike you and him, I have no problems with setting boundaries and executing them with extreme prejudice if the situation calls for it.

Some are talkers, some are doers!


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Windwalker said:


> I'll leave these for you.
> 
> https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/threat
> 
> ...


I think for best results, one has to try to excel at both.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> I think for best results, one has to try to excel at both.


Ok
Now this discussion is done.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Windwalker said:


> Ok
> Now this discussion is done.


Which discussion? Are you asking to close the thread? 

I am not sure if it's perhaps something you had for breakfast or lack a sense of humour but I am not trying to score points at your expense. I actually agreed with most of the things you said in this thread. Anything I said above was pertinent to GreenOrb's issue, nothing more. If you are keen to stop a discussion then you can easily stop discussing whatever it is you want to stop discussing.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This morning - M2 said - tonight. Declarative. The word tonight - has two flavors in our home. 

Tonight? Rising pitch is version of play 1. It’s a soft request. A question.

Tonight. Flat pitch is a version of play 2. Tonight is a synonym for Strip.

I said - Yes - immediately and firmly

She came home we did our nightly walk - 4 miles came home showered and hopped in bed. 






inmyprime said:


> Good to hear you apologised...My wife would not have let me ‘off the hook’ so easily
> 
> How come you didn’t tell her yesterday what you were anxious about?
> Just to avoid her second guessing the whole day today. These things can be very delicate...
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Ok - so I’m gonna assemble some emotional LEGO. 

G2 has a higher than ideal anxiety level. I am not diagnosing her as having generalized anxiety disorder, just saying she likely feels anxious more often than the average bear. Top of that she has specific anxieties: body image, others

Now - add in her worrying about an unwanted pregnancy. Unprotected sex - stop and add a condom in the middle - not optimal for an anxious person. 

Note - GO mentioned how alcohol has helped her in the past. This is a classic pattern with someone who is anxious. 

Not saying that - she will like sex if she isn’t anxious. Just that when she feels anxious, sex is less fun for her. 

If I was GO, I’d see what two drinks followed by a back massage does for her.




Windwalker said:


> That's a half million dollar question!


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

MEM2020 said:


> GO,
> 
> What do you do to help her relax before sex?
> How about room lighting?
> Why no vasectomy?





Windwalker said:


> That's a half million dollar question!


I've given her massages before, but that's when I can get her to agree to them which is often difficult. Room lighting normally low, although I leave the bathroom light on since I hate having sex in the dark.

Since we rarely have sex and certainly never discussed it, talk about vasectomy has just never come up. And seemed hardly worth it from my point of view. It's only a one off story, but one of my friends said it turned his balls blue for two weeks which kinda put me off. 

If we start hitting decent numbers I will raise it. Frequency has increased a little since I've been posting here. Almost hitting twice a month (although one of those I can write off).

G2's general lack of willing to discuss things like vasectomy and other sex and relationship matters frustrates me though. She'll talk plenty about her day and the things that frustrate her, but she can't seem to talk about things that are going on in our relationship. I always thought women were supposed to be good at it but maybe I'm wrong.

I tried a quick play this morning. She has the day off, and she said she couldn't be bothered to get out of bed. I said I would come and spank her if she didn't move, then rolled her on her side and started spanking her butt. She didn't look all that happy so I stopped. Thinking now I should have just kept going and got her to fight me.


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

MEM2020 said:


> This morning - M2 said - tonight. Declarative.



Probably wishful thinking, but this would be my goal. Aim for the stars and all that



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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

GreenOrb said:


> Probably wishful thinking, but this would be my goal. Aim for the stars and all that
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


aint going to happen with that attitude...

is there any way you can elicit a sense of enthusiasm within your wife for a good sex life? the way to do this would be to see it from her perspective and find something about it that SHE would want. 

the best way to get what you want from other people is to show them that it gets them what THEY want. so...

what does your wife want?


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

As'laDain said:


> aint going to happen with that attitude...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



She basically wants me to take the heat off her. She is clearly an anxious person, and combined with the fact she’s been running everything and thinking of everything for most of our relationship has added to her anxiety levels. Not a recipe for a willing wife. (It seems obvious now but this has all become apparent to me since posted on TAM)

So that’s what I’m currently doing. Doing as much as I can round the house, organising things before she thinks of them. And so on. 

Her mood has definitely changed in the last few months. Over the last 5-10 years she’s often been very bad tempered and I often wondered what had happened to the woman I married. Now I know, I’m making amends and seems to be working. She is much more fun again and generally seems less stressed with life.

I still think she is wondering if I am going to go back to my old self and so is taking her time to fully trust me. Perhaps this is why she keeps holding me off somewhat. I’ve also been guilty in the past of getting p***ed off with her when she wouldn’t sleep with me, which may also be adding to her hold off, ie, she only wants to go for it when she is fully in the mood and doesn’t have to endure me getting annoyed. I have already told her this will never happen again, but again she probably needs to trust this is the case (The last time was a while back and I’ve realised it’s just low and petty)


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

does she understand how you feel when you feel desired and sought after for sex? does she understand exactly what that picture looks like in your head, of where you want sex to go in your relationship? 

if not, you should find a way to tell her. in my case, i would rant on about the kind of relationship i wanted to have with Akinaura, and she wanted it too. she heard where i wanted the relationship to go, my excitement elicited an excitement about it in her. so, sex became one of the ways of getting there. 

to be fair, i didnt just want sex... i wanted to see her get to the point where she LOVED sex, which meant that i had to find every possible way to make sex an amazing thing for her. that involved a lot more than just sex, and it involved me learning more about her than i had ever known. 

it sounds to me like you are starting down the right path, but you have never fully understood your wife. you need to know more about her if you are going to make the journey you want to go on worth it to her.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

First off - the idea that you aren’t ever allowed to show sexual frustration, disappointment or disapproval is unrealistic and unfair. 

That doesn’t mean you get to grind her. It means that this is a big deal in a marriage and there will be moments where you are unhappy. 

I guarantee you that if were to start jacking around with her highest priority items - she will express anger, disappointment, etc. 

Ok so - GO - stop with the spanking for now. It isn’t a universal panty wetter. And G2 seems not too keen. 

Being rough and being dominant are completely different things. And there are two quadrants for each dimension.

M2 loves being over powered. So in terms of dominance - she wants to be receiving, She doesn’t much like receiving rough, but when we wrestle she loves punching, scratching, biting (not skin breaking). 

All that said, hate to bust your bubble but it is reality time. 
1. Your sex life crashed before you married. Basically you had one good year and that was it. 
2. Was your mediocre partnering a contributing factor to your sex life? Sure. But not a big one. 

This whole trust issue - good luck with that. People who are not fond of sex CLING TO A CATALOG OF PAST INJURIES AS IF IT WERE A LIFE VEST AND THEY A PASSENGER THROWN INTO A STORMY SEA. 

Every competent sex therapist in the world can instantly differentiate between:
1. I want to resume having a good sex life but am trying to get past some trust issues (sincere statement of intent)
2. I just don’t really trust (her/him) and feel some deep seated resentments that I am not sure I can get past

Watch carefully - as I slowly lift the hat and underneath - you discover that the white dove is now a brown rabbit. Here goes:

In response to two - therapist asks: So how else do those trust and resentment issues impact your marriage. 

LD partner - stiffly: Wait, what? I don’t understand the question.
Therapist: what else does this impact?
Dead silence. 

Then - when do you think you will forgive your HD partner? Because there is a difference between a normal forgiveness/trust trajectory and the use of resentment and distrust for a specific, beneficial purpose. 

So - if nothing else in the marriage is impacted - and you seem to have no DESIRE to forgive/release than - that is the use of prior grievance for beneficial purpose (avoiding sex). 

And that is about disliking sex, not trust/resentment issues. 







GreenOrb said:


> She basically wants me to take the heat off her. She is clearly an anxious person, and combined with the fact she’s been running everything and thinking of everything for most of our relationship has added to her anxiety levels. Not a recipe for a willing wife. (It seems obvious now but this has all become apparent to me since posted on TAM)
> 
> So that’s what I’m currently doing. Doing as much as I can round the house, organising things before she thinks of them. And so on.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

G2 is an anxious person. Anxious folk HATE it when other people spike the **** out of their vitals. They hate it. 

Imagine that G2 who thinks she has safely fulfilled her wifely quota for a while (at least two weeks), hears: Sex was incredible for me last night. 

1. She already knew that. Sorry but ummm - it was likely more than clear at the time and right after
2. I can’t emphasize enough how inward facing it is to tell someone something they already know and then ask how it was for them

So so so much better to soft voice the: how was the experience for you last night (perfectly neutral question).





As'laDain said:


> does she understand how you feel when you feel desired and sought after for sex? does she understand exactly what that picture looks like in your head, of where you want sex to go in your relationship?
> 
> if not, you should find a way to tell her. in my case, i would rant on about the kind of relationship i wanted to have with Akinaura, and she wanted it too. she heard where i wanted the relationship to go, my excitement elicited an excitement about it in her. so, sex became one of the ways of getting there.
> 
> ...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

GreenOrb said:


> She basically wants me to take the heat off her. She is clearly an anxious person, and combined with the fact she’s been running everything and thinking of everything for most of our relationship has added to her anxiety levels. Not a recipe for a willing wife. (It seems obvious now but this has all become apparent to me since posted on TAM)
> 
> So that’s what I’m currently doing. Doing as much as I can round the house, organising things before she thinks of them. And so on.



Can I ask what it is you are trying to achieve with those tasks? Don’t get me wrong I think you should be helping around the house (anyone SHOULD share the tasks/burdens to do with household and help their spouse as much as they can). But why do you feel this will somehow make her want to have sex with you? 
Isn’t this the reason you started this thread in the first place? 

By all means try all these things but unless she understands that her neglecting you sexually may cost her the relationship, she is not going to take this seriously. Because she might not think that it matters to you all that much. If this continues, I don’t see how you can realistically avoid that ‘talk’ with her in the end. 

She wants you to take the ‘heat’ off but I don’t really see how the heat has been on in the first place. She is basically ‘training’ you to do these things around the house while making sure you don’t ‘pressurise’ her into sex. Again, this is fine and like I said one mustn’t neglect a marriage in ALL areas.

As for spanking, wrestling, dirty talk etc: yes, there is no universal ‘panty wetter’ that’s for sure and goes for anything you will try.

But in the end, unless you get her to take this and you seriously, I worry you might be wasting your time. 
Unless she is truly asexual (which is rare but possible), it is my belief that you can have a fulfilling relationship between an LD and HD spouse without resentment. I used to be you. But you have to stop fudging and dancing around the issue IMO.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

MEM2020 said:


> G2 is an anxious person. Anxious folk HATE it when other people spike the **** out of their vitals. They hate it.
> 
> Imagine that G2 who thinks she has safely fulfilled her wifely quota for a while (at least two weeks), hears: Sex was incredible for me last night.
> 
> ...


not sure if you are adding to what i said or if you misunderstood it... 

im talking about eliciting an enthusiasm and excitement for a relationship that seems to perpetually build itself in positive energy. fun, adventure, intimacy, safety, trust, etc. 

sex was a part of that, but i would say it was a fourth of the whole. foregoing the improvement our sex life would have been like trying to drive a car while with one flat tire. the flat tire doesn't make the car bad, but refusing to fix it will mean that you wont go very far.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> Imagine that G2 who thinks she has safely fulfilled her wifely quota for a while (at least two weeks), hears: Sex was incredible for me last night.
> 
> 1. She already knew that. Sorry but ummm - it was likely more than clear at the time and right after
> 2. I can’t emphasize enough how inward facing it is to tell someone something they already know and then ask how it was for them
> ...


An HD person has a round of great sex, and thinks "wow, I can't wait to do that again!" and can't fathom that their LowerD partner doesn't feel the same way.

An LD person has a round of great sex, and thinks "awesome, that'll last me a while!" and assumes the same goes for their HigherD partner. The LD partner's bucket is still full, but the HD partner seems like a bucket with a hole in it; they fill it as best they can, but it empties so quickly, there's really no point in trying again.

There may also be a bit of refractory period making an issue here. If she's sore, due to not being sufficiently lubricated the whole time, or stiff, due to the unaccustomed physical activity, she may want a long recovery time. The discomfort for up to days afterwards may influence her to forget the more fleeting good feelings. 

Instead of gushing about how amazing it was for you, work on making sure it was amazing for her.


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> Can I ask what it is you are trying to achieve with those tasks? Don’t get me wrong I think you should be helping around the house (anyone SHOULD share the tasks/burdens to do with household and help their spouse as much as they can). But why do you feel this will somehow make her want to have sex with you?
> Isn’t this the reason you started this thread in the first place?
> 
> By all means try all these things but unless she understands that her neglecting you sexually may cost her the relationship, she is not going to take this seriously. Because she might not think that it matters to you all that much. If this continues, I don’t see how you can realistically avoid that ‘talk’ with her in the end.
> ...




6 months ago I wasn’t doing these tasks and so back then there was no way G2 was ever going to give me more sex. Now I’m doing this stuff she can’t come up with the excuse that I’m not doing things for her. The more I keep doing this the more goodwill I can build up. And it’s now also something I can remove if I really need to go down that route.

I know I’m probably treading slowly but right now I’m trying to give G2 a chance to show me she is willing to up the sex. I guess the problem with sex is it’s less frequent than everyday chores so takes time to judge. If I’m sitting here in a month’s time and we’ve had sex say 5 times during that period then I will have made a huge step forward.

The fact that you’ve pulled this off gives me some hope.

My next post will explain where I think I’ve got to.


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

So thought it was worth looking at where I’ve got to and everything I’ve learned thanks to everyone that has helped me out so far.

2 months ago I started this thread and me and G2 were having sex 8 times a year. At the time I said I’d be happy with 2-3 times a month, and in the last 2 months we have had sex 4 times. Plus G2 has agreed that we need to have sex more and every 2 weeks is something she thinks she could manage. So job done.

Except it’s not. Since I’ve been posting here our relationship has improved massively. I’m been behaving like a responsible husband in charge of the household for the last 4-5 months, something I wasn’t doing for basically all of our relationship. And I’ve rediscovered the woman I fell in love with 17 years ago. And that means I want to have sex with her a lot more. Damn.

Plus G2 still pushes back hard and keeps reminding me how we “won’t be having sex today since we only did it a few days ago”.

Knowing that she has responsive desire has helped me. Last time we had sex I spent some time “winding her up” and it seemed it work. Being somewhat more dominant with her seems to be good, although maybe I’ll hold back on the spanking for now.

What I’ve learned about G2 is this: I think she actually does enjoy sex with me. But there are 2 things holding her back.

First I think she has some kind of guilt complex. Sex to her is “wrong” and something good girls don’t do. She has mentioned before she has felt bad about herself when she’s has sex, but didn’t really feel like it. Where this has come from I don’t know. And it probably doesn’t matter. But right now I’m not sure how to fix it, short of forcing her hand and taking the decision away from her with some dominance which seemed to work last time.

And she is very anxious. This seems to affect her in two ways. First, just being anxious day to day means she finds it hard to relax and makes it harder to enjoy sex. This anxiety also stretches into the bedroom in the form of body shyness and an inability to let herself go. We actually discussed this earlier today and she said she was thinking about what she can do to reduce her anxiety and potentially go see someone. So we may be able to work on this.

Right now I’m playing a little bit of a waiting game. We only had sex 3 days ago. I’m going to go for it again tomorrow and see what happens. If I can start getting G2 into some kind of regularity then all the issues above may be of no consequence. When/if we have sex I’ll make sure she enjoys it as much as possible. And if I as

Or maybe she’ll deny for the next couple of weeks and I’ll know I’ve got nowhere. Then I’ll need to start having a more serious conversation as many have suggested, ie, this is doing serious damage to our relationship and I don’t feel my needs are important, what can we do to resolve it.

That feels like it for now. Almost every time I post someone finds something in my thinking that is flawed and I learn something new, so fully expecting the same again!



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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

GreenOrb said:


> 6 months ago I wasn’t doing these tasks and so back then there was no way G2 was ever going to give me more sex. Now I’m doing this stuff she can’t come up with the excuse that I’m not doing things for her. The more I keep doing this the more goodwill I can build up. And it’s now also something I can remove if I really need to go down that route.
> 
> I know I’m probably treading slowly but right now I’m trying to give G2 a chance to show me she is willing to up the sex. I guess the problem with sex is it’s less frequent than everyday chores so takes time to judge. If I’m sitting here in a month’s time and we’ve had sex say 5 times during that period then I will have made a huge step forward.
> 
> ...


I have 'pulled it off' because my wife made a choice and *let* me pull it off. I am under no illusions about this. I pushed her and the situation - sometimes quite hard - but it was her who _let_ me go down that route in the end. She could have easily decided to remain shut and no amount of 'technique' or effort from my side would have made any difference. She must have felt it was worth it for the sake of us or the family, I don't know, but the point is that SHE made the decision to WANT to meet me half way. I didn't MAKE her do it with bribes or tasks for her to feel that perhaps she should return a favour...Yet she ended up enjoying it and herself in the process and went 'all the way' and more in the end, not just half way. 

Even though I was continuously told that that can't happen; LDs always remain LDs, it's unnatural and unreasonable to expect them to change, I should either accept the situation or leave etc etc. It went from 'are you going to finish soon' sex to completely mind blowing/passionate love making that I didn't think she was capable of. Ok I also changed a lot in my approach to sex with her. I used to sulk, sigh or close doors loudly if it has been a while (>3-4 days; I have no idea how you manage to go for weeks or months without) until she would get the 'hint' and begrudgingly agree to a half arsed handjob or similar. Whereas now I understand better what makes her tick, sexually. And I think that every woman, LD or HD (unless they are asexual) must have her own 'quirks' or preferences that perhaps she either doesn't know she has or is unable to express or ask for, from her partner. Anyway, maybe it's all a dream that will end soon but I am in no hurry to wake up yet.

There are many factors that contributed: sex is definitely better when we are on the same 'wave length' and I don't piss her off and she feels she doesn't need to 'control' or 'ration' sex as a result. The attraction has to be fundamentally there and is a very important factor (I was sometimes worried she wasn't as attracted to me as I am to her which is probably still true but it would be unreasonable to expect full symmetry in this respect). I had to figure out (through trial and error but mainly through instinct) what it is that she likes in bed because she wouldn't tell me. That's because I don't think she knew herself. We did A LOT of talking about this and it took her A LONG time to understand my perspective; she used to think for example that my desire for sex with her was a desire for sex alone which had nothing to do with *her*, in her mind. This always put her on guard and made her feel like she was just an object or a human hole. (While I used to think that I was just a human wallet so I guess we must be even in some sense...). These kinds of insecurities can only be resolved through *dialogue* in my opinion because it's actually a misunderstanding more than anything else. And I know a lot of women have the same insecurities because I read about them all the time here. 
There are many more reasons I am sure.

The chores stuff...you should do them regardless whether you get sex or not. She is not stupid, she must know that for the time being, you have an ulterior motive for doing these chores. Maybe that's what she means by having the 'heat on'? (The expectations from you). That's why it's easier in a way for LDs to set days or date nights aside in their heads when to have sex, so that the rest of the time, they can relax and be content that the daily interactions with the partner are not geared to lead to sex. She should try and have sex on those days whether she feels like it or not, whether it is good sex or bad sex doesn't matter, because the act alone releases bonding hormones and each time it will feel more natural and not just become a habit, but a pleasurable habit. (Ideally. It's not a guarantee that it will but it has a better chance if you actually are doing it *regularly* and you can use that time to practice, try different things and experiment to find out what she might like. And pay special attention to the psychological aspect of it because for women, it is less about the act itself, like I mentioned before).

You mentioned earlier your sex life used to be good in the beginning. Can you elaborate on it? Do you remember what was good about it? How was she experiencing it differently? Was she acting differently? What was the frequency like? More importantly, does *she* remember what it was like and how it felt differently for her? 6 times a year is extremely low...it's almost on the 'asexual' side if she says she can live without it completely (I don't know if she ever said that?).


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The thing is - I think her anxiety might be central to the experience. 

Might be wrong but I have read a lot of posts by women saying that during the lead up, during foreplay and the act itself they are ruminating about their to do lists, the things that went wrong earlier today, or might go wrong tomorrow. 

And I believe that for many/most of those women the anxiety is subtractive to their enjoyment. 

The following sequence is so common it is a cliche. The couple is in therapy (with a mediocre therapist) and the LD says something which is totally true and follows it with a logical statement - that is entirely false. 

True statement: It is hard for me to have sex when I am worrying about ... the state of the house ... bills ... the kids ... her friends and/or siblings and parents. 

False statement: If HD just did more I would probably want more sex 

The H hears this and immediately sets off on a quest. He is a man on a mission - his mission is every bit as easy to describe as it is impossible to execute. It is called: *The quest to create the mythical perfect environment 
*
Not saying she is lying. Saying that it is literally impossible to create a stress free environment. So the HD - about kills themself playing step and fetch it. And nothing changes because the LD partner is always finding stuff to angst about. 

Instead of trying to make a perfect environment, far better to get the LD partner to learn how to self soothe while in parallel the HD partner learns how to support that process. 

Being excessively helpful lowers your partners respect for you. They begin to see you less as an equal and more as a subordinate. It becomes a turn OFF. 




inmyprime said:


> Can I ask what it is you are trying to achieve with those tasks? Don’t get me wrong I think you should be helping around the house (anyone SHOULD share the tasks/burdens to do with household and help their spouse as much as they can). But why do you feel this will somehow make her want to have sex with you?
> Isn’t this the reason you started this thread in the first place?
> 
> By all means try all these things but unless she understands that her neglecting you sexually may cost her the relationship, she is not going to take this seriously. Because she might not think that it matters to you all that much. If this continues, I don’t see how you can realistically avoid that ‘talk’ with her in the end.
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Absolutely priceless. 

Below is the best post I have seen in a long, long time. 





inmyprime said:


> I have 'pulled it off' because my wife made a choice and *let* me pull it off. I am under no illusions about this. I pushed her and the situation - sometimes quite hard - but it was her who _let_ me go down that route in the end. She could have easily decided to remain shut and no amount of 'technique' or effort from my side would have made any difference. She must have felt it was worth it for the sake of us or the family, I don't know, but the point is that SHE made the decision to WANT to meet me half way. I didn't MAKE her do it with bribes or tasks for her to feel that perhaps she should return a favour...Yet she ended up enjoying it and herself in the process and went 'all the way' and more in the end, not just half way.
> 
> Even though I was continuously told that that can't happen; LDs always remain LDs, it's unnatural and unreasonable to expect them to change, I should either accept the situation or leave etc etc. It went from 'are you going to finish soon' sex to completely mind blowing/passionate love making that I didn't think she was capable of. Ok I also changed a lot in my approach to sex with her. I used to sulk, sigh or close doors loudly if it has been a while (>3-4 days; I have no idea how you manage to go for weeks or months without) until she would get the 'hint' and begrudgingly agree to a half arsed handjob or similar. Whereas now I understand better what makes her tick, sexually. And I think that every woman, LD or HD (unless they are asexual) must have her own 'quirks' or preferences that perhaps she either doesn't know she has or is unable to express or ask for, from her partner. Anyway, maybe it's all a dream that will end soon but I am in no hurry to wake up yet.
> 
> ...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

GreenOrb said:


> So thought it was worth looking at where I’ve got to and everything I’ve learned thanks to everyone that has helped me out so far.
> 
> 2 months ago I started this thread and me and G2 were having sex 8 times a year. At the time I said I’d be happy with 2-3 times a month, and in the last 2 months we have had sex 4 times. Plus G2 has agreed that we need to have sex more and every 2 weeks is something she thinks she could manage. So job done.
> 
> ...


There's nothing flawed in your thinking 

It sounds encouraging, especially the part where you say that you feel you 'rediscovered your relationship'. That's very good. I do hope the feeling is mutual.

This part: "She has mentioned before she has felt bad about herself when she’s has sex, but didn’t really feel like it. Where this has come from I don’t know. And it probably doesn’t matter."

I think it might actually be very important to find out whether she feels 'bad about herself' when she has sex because she doesn't _feel_ what she thinks she is supposed to be feeling or some other reason. Understanding where this negative feeling comes from exactly might help in possibly breaking the cycle.
There can be many reasons and they all would need different ways to address them...Whereas some *can't* even potentially be addressed. At least not by the same husband... (for example, if a woman feels bad that sex *with her husband* feels bad).


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

@GreenOrb, the anxiety that you mention and the fact that she told you at some point that she feels bad about herself after sex points to what Anon Pink was saying earlier about something in her past causing her to have issues with sex as an adult. it sounds like a family of origin issue. 

what the dominance aspect does is allows her to let go and not THINK about it. but, in order for her to submit to YOU, she has to trust you. i dont think she is quite there yet. at least, not quite enough to let the anxiety fall away entirely. 

you seem to be at that awkward stage where i was when i first started working to change my marital dynamic. you see some progress, and your wife seems willing enough to work with you, but neither of you are quite yet comfortable in the changes that are taking place. 

that is ok, so long as you are BOTH seeing progress. if your wife tells you that she is feeling more loved by you than she was before, then the changes you have made are good for her. if YOU are feeling more loved by your wife, then the changes you are making are good for you. i would suggest you keep having those conversations, keep doing your best to make her feel loved, and keep pushing for improvement. dont let it stagnate. 

adopt this philosophy on relationships: they are either getting stronger, or they are getting weaker. they are either getting better, or they are getting worse. they are either improving, or they are deteriorating. they are NEVER stagnant. 

adopt that philosophy for yourself, and tell your wife that you are adopting that philosophy. tell her that you will constantly work to improve your relationship with her from now on. that means you will constantly work to get her to fall more and more in love with you by doing things that make her feel loved, and you will constantly work toward falling in love with her by finding ways to get her to do more and more things that make YOU feel loved. 

that means that you will never stop working to improve every single aspect of your relationship with her. 

everything you do should be done with the intention of improving your relationship with her. 

isnt that your goal anyway? if so, does _she_ know it?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Pretty much. I often thought I "turned the corner" but it was not the case. 

The every two weeks deal could metastasize into epic excuses, fights the day before, or mystery ilnesses. Been there. 

What you both need is a paradigm shift. And that is not something that happens overnight. 2x a month in early 40s is pretty much 1x a month if that in a few years.

I don't know if you've ever heard the term SLA. Service Level Agreement. Her SLA is 1x to 2x a month at best, preferrably less. You can wash dishes like the best of them but that's not going to change the paradigm. I wish it could. To change SLA it's a whole new way of thinking. 

If you have decent insurance use the opportunity to go to counseling together to find ways to improve what you have. Think long term. 

I'm still amazed up to 35 years of my life went poof and it hasn't bothered me. Yet. Don't be that guy. Seriously.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The more serious conversation needs to be about her working WITH you to make things better. 

If she decides to fight you - game over. And that’s really the thing I can’t tell here. While I think you’re perceptions of her are quite good, your delivery style - in talking about this - is unlikely to make this feel collaborative to her. 

I think you are way more anxious about this than you consciously realize and it is not helping you. 

And like most HD folks on here - you really seem determined to convince yourself that she likes it. And that is a certain death trap because that - need - will come across loud and clear to her. Meaning - it will seem as if your need for validation is more important than the actual quality of the experience for her. 

By FAR the better play is to pay attention to what is happening. And when what you directly observe becomes contradictory - meaning she gives you the panting moaning routine and then fights you hard to maximize the lag between encounters. 

This is where you do ask questions - and make simple statements including: 
- Are you pretending to like it when we connect? 
- No one fights this hard to avoid something they like doing.
- Tell me one thing - about our last session - that you disliked. 

And if she goes into information warfare mode via a combo of obfuscation, double talk, contradiction and avoidance - you just put your hands on her shoulders - softly - touch don’t grab: This is my highest priority right now, and it feels like you are actively working against me. And that feels bad. 

Then if you get no response go about your day. 

At some point you will start feeling taken advantage of. And that won’t be good. 






GreenOrb said:


> So thought it was worth looking at where I’ve got to and everything I’ve learned thanks to everyone that has helped me out so far.
> 
> 2 months ago I started this thread and me and G2 were having sex 8 times a year. At the time I said I’d be happy with 2-3 times a month, and in the last 2 months we have had sex 4 times. Plus G2 has agreed that we need to have sex more and every 2 weeks is something she thinks she could manage. So job done.
> 
> ...


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## Akinaura (Dec 6, 2011)

GreenOrb said:


> And she is very anxious. This seems to affect her in two ways. First, just being anxious day to day means she finds it hard to relax and makes it harder to enjoy sex. This anxiety also stretches into the bedroom in the form of body shyness and an inability to let herself go. We actually discussed this earlier today and she said she was thinking about what she can do to reduce her anxiety and potentially go see someone. So we may be able to work on this.


Words = actions

Actions = words

Simple enough concept right? If your words and actions don't match, you're not helping her anxiety levels, you're adding to them. If they match, it will give her something to ground herself on. 

Now this WILL NOT happen overnight...I think it took me a good couple of months before I could start relaxing around Asla. But this concept is by far the best groundwork I have seen for establishing a "trust" position in either spouse. If you are going to say you are going to do something, do it. Good or bad. Ask Asla about our wedding bands...good or bad, do it. If you tell your wife, if you stay in bed all day, I will spank you until you get up and shower...do it. If you tell her you will wash dishes immediately after dinner, do it, even if you are full/tired/just want to sit.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Agreed. Model the behavior that you want. 

Which means that when G2 is saying one thing and doing the opposite - you call her on it. 

Calling is an art form. Especially in a marriage where it is simply unprecedented. My best results are achieved by this:

Babe, you are telling me xyz - and I pause before adding - your (actions/tone of voice etc.) contradict that. 

But I say this not in an angry or judgemental tone. But in a calm but slightly confused tone. And then I say: That type contradiction makes me anxious. 

Then I shut up. Note - this whole message is maybe 15 seconds. 

If it persists I ratchet up with: Either your words or actions are not true. And that is bad for us as a unit. 

And FWIW - M2 does this same thing to me and I love her all the more for it. 




Akinaura said:


> Words = actions
> 
> Actions = words
> 
> ...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> The more serious conversation needs to be about her working WITH you to make things better.
> 
> 
> 
> If she decides to fight you - game over. And that’s really the thing I can’t tell here.



Me neither. However she could be fighting him in one aspect while collaborating in another.



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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Prime,
GO needs to read your post over and over and over. 

Because you recognized that without collaboration you were dead in the water. And then you INSPIRED collaboration. The real deal. Consequently your results were stellar. Not barely tolerable. Not mediocre. Stellar. 

You were somehow able - despite the pain of rejection - to correctly perceive P2 as lacking in awareness. As opposed to viewing her as your nemesis. And you were able to see and understand the underlying drivers of her behavior. And address them -constructively. 

You treated this situation as an N-dimensional puzzle, as opposed to a war. 

Bravo. 




inmyprime said:


> Me neither. However she could be fighting him in one aspect while collaborating in another.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> Prime,
> GO needs to read your post over and over and over.
> 
> Because you recognized that without collaboration you were dead in the water. And then you INSPIRED collaboration. The real deal. Consequently your results were stellar. Not barely tolerable. Not mediocre. Stellar.
> ...


That's very kind of you MEM, but I think it's my wife who deserves all the praise who must have done a lot of soul searching to arrive at this point. I just merely tried not to be in her way of her getting there.


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> I have 'pulled it off' because my wife made a choice and *let* me pull it off. I am under no illusions about this. I pushed her and the situation - sometimes quite hard - but it was her who _let_ me go down that route in the end. She could have easily decided to remain shut and no amount of 'technique' or effort from my side would have made any difference. She must have felt it was worth it for the sake of us or the family, I don't know, but the point is that SHE made the decision to WANT to meet me half way. I didn't MAKE her do it with bribes or tasks for her to feel that perhaps she should return a favour...Yet she ended up enjoying it and herself in the process and went 'all the way' and more in the end, not just half way.
> 
> Even though I was continuously told that that can't happen; LDs always remain LDs, it's unnatural and unreasonable to expect them to change, I should either accept the situation or leave etc etc. It went from 'are you going to finish soon' sex to completely mind blowing/passionate love making that I didn't think she was capable of. Ok I also changed a lot in my approach to sex with her. I used to sulk, sigh or close doors loudly if it has been a while (>3-4 days; I have no idea how you manage to go for weeks or months without) until she would get the 'hint' and begrudgingly agree to a half arsed handjob or similar. Whereas now I understand better what makes her tick, sexually. And I think that every woman, LD or HD (unless they are asexual) must have her own 'quirks' or preferences that perhaps she either doesn't know she has or is unable to express or ask for, from her partner. Anyway, maybe it's all a dream that will end soon but I am in no hurry to wake up yet.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the brief history. Helps give perspective. So far I’ve been working on myself, but feels like I’ve got about as far as I can get by myself alone. I think the only way I can move on from here is get G2 to talk to me and agree to come along for the ride. I know the problem I’m going to have is G2 seems to not want to open up to me.

Sex with my previous girlfriend had been good. I’d thrown her around a bit and there’d been plenty of oral. So I thought the same would work on G2. But it was somewhat different. In general with G2 it was far more passionate, probably because I properly loved her (and fairly certain she loved me too), but less adventurous. However, we did have a few very drunken times which were really good.

I don’t think we had sex for the first month or so. From memory I was under the (utterly stupid) impression that it was important to be a gentleman and not sleep with her straight away. I probably did myself out of the best sex right there!

When we did start having sex it was every time we saw each other and normally somewhat drunken. One of our first times was when we stayed over at a friends house after a few drinks. G2 actually initiated and then jumped on top, and leant back and stroked by balls. I thought I’d landed a girl who knew what she was doing in bed!

The really drunken sex was always the most rampant. A few examples:
- about 4 years in, one night we were staying at a casino. I made a ton of money at the tables and G2 seemed to be really into me. We went back up to our room and were kissing in the lift. As soon as we were through the bedroom door we ripped each other’s clothes off. Straight after G2 asked why I hadn’t bent her over bedroom balcony
- on another trip about 3 years in we went out to dinner, got quite drunk then went back to our hotel. G2 I think said she hadn’t seen much porn so I put some on the tv. Pretty quick she seemed to be dripping wet. A long time ago but I think the sex was hard and fast from there.
- we did it outside on several occasions. Once in the back garden at my parents (actually sober) and once in the grounds of a hotel (again fairly drunk)

But looking back I’m not sure how much drunken sex counts really. Or is it a window into the kind of woman G2 could become if she’s able to let go?

Things however were never that adventurous. The first time I tried oral she wouldn’t let me. I’ve tried a few times since then, but the only time I managed it again was when she was quite drunk. I guess that made me somewhat wary of being too adventurous with her, plus I probably wasn’t as confident as I thought I was, which she saw too. We did doggy sometimes, but more often than not missionary or occasionally G2 on top.

The good times she always seemed to be into me before hand and would often be physical with me. Not sure if I was ever doing anything different during these times or if it was just her hormones.

She says she can never remember our really drunken sex so I’ve never been able to figure out what she’s liked about it. When I’ve really pushed she has said she wants me to be more confident in bed but apart from that she’s never really given me any clues since she will never talk about it.

One thing that has always struck me as odd is that she gets on her with parents extremely well, except she says they never said they loved her (according to her it was obvious in their actions) and therefore she is very uncomfortable saying it to me. And that seems to spill over into relationship talk, she just can’t seem to talk about without feeling very uncomfortable. I’m going to have to get her talking somehow but not sure how right now.



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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

MEM2020 said:


> The thing is - I think her anxiety might be central to the experience.
> 
> Might be wrong but I have read a lot of posts by women saying that during the lead up, during foreplay and the act itself they are ruminating about their to do lists, the things that went wrong earlier today, or might go wrong tomorrow.
> 
> ...




This makes perfect sense. I’m doing a lot now and I’m generally around more working so much closer to home. And yet G2 is still just as stressed as ever complaining she can’t fit everything in (including finding time to have sex with me). And I’ve been left scratching my head recently.


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

It’s clear from everything above that I need to get G2 talking.

I tried to get G2 into bed last night but it didn’t happen. We’d been out all day with the kids and she was tired. I was fine, I was quite tired too.

So I started talking. I basically said that up until recently I had muddled through life, but I felt I had now got things together, and wanted to find ways in which we could improve our relationship in every way possible. I said it didn’t really make any sense not to try and make our relationship as good as possible, but so far we hadn’t talked enough to make that happen. I said I loved her, felt our relationship had improved a lot over the last few months, and if we started talking more, we could have something really great. I said I didn’t want to become one of those married couples who fight and squabble and don’t really get on but stay together because they have nothing better to go to. We all know plenty of those. I said I thought I had already done a lot to make her much happier, but I did want her to tell me what else I could do.

I also said it sometimes hurt that she never told me she loved me. I was fairly certain she did, but hearing the words can be good.

During most of this she didn’t really say anything, just listened, and then agreed that she wasn’t good at talking.

I finally mentioned sex and said I thought maybe she quite enjoyed it but some things were holding her back. She did briefly agree that there are things that held her back, but she wasn’t sure what they were.

I also said I thought her anxiety was something we should get sorted, which she agreed.

I finally said that I knew she didn’t like talking, which I understood. I probably hadn’t been any good at it either, but now I wanted to start, and I wanted us to keep communicating.

She seemed to agree that was good, but again barely said anything else, nothing about how she felt, whether she did actually love me, etc.

Everything was fine after, and felt like I set it off in the right direction. But unless she actually starts talking to me sooner or later I’m going to go nowhere. Right now she can’t even bring herself to say “I love you”.

So I’ll just have to keep trying, although I’m being careful not to overdo it and seem overbearing. I’m at least discovering I’m a good talker.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

If your partner of two decades ends up saying fewer words than Alexa, something is very seriously off here.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

GreenOrb said:


> Thanks for the brief history. Helps give perspective. So far I’ve been working on myself, but feels like I’ve got about as far as I can get by myself alone. I think the only way I can move on from here is get G2 to talk to me and agree to come along for the ride. I know the problem I’m going to have is G2 seems to not want to open up to me.
> 
> Sex with my previous girlfriend had been good. I’d thrown her around a bit and there’d been plenty of oral. So I thought the same would work on G2. But it was somewhat different. In general with G2 it was far more passionate, probably because I properly loved her (and fairly certain she loved me too), but less adventurous. However, we did have a few very drunken times which were really good.
> 
> ...




This doesn’t sound like behaviour of an asexual woman. Even under influence of alcohol...

The last bit is a bit concerning though. There is sometimes an easier explanation why a woman may have a hard time saying ‘I love you’ back. It’s because they may not be sure or may not feel it. I very much hope it is not the case (because there’s basically nothing you can do in that scenario) but this possibility should never be discounted. Even for couples who used to be able to say this to each other...Feelings are fluid and can change over time regardless.

How do you think would she react if she was faced with a serious possibility of loosing you? 
There were times (once or twice) some years ago when I was ready to walk and sometimes a person may not realise what they are feeling unless they are faced with the real possibility of loss. This makes them evaluate their feelings and their attitude towards the relationship.
However that only works if they love you and don’t actually want to loose you..That wasn’t a tactic, I was actually going to walk (and did leave, for a brief time).


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

GO:

Look, I am not trying to be overly pessimistic when I say this, but rather realistic... especially given that I also did things the hard way by giving my wife likely too much time to decide to get back into our marriage. 

Both Mem and John were involved. And much like this thread, their opinions of the situation were far apart. They saw me go through much the same thing you are, very early in the process.

Think about a timeline; a date by which her continued lack of involvement will result in you calling things off. Without it, you run the risk of perpetual limbo. 

My cut off was 8 months. I then accepted a small amount of progress by that deadline, followed by stagnancy for another 18 months after that. During that 18 months is when I finally stopped prioritizing her. When that happened, she finally decided to invest back into the marriage emotionally. In other words, she wanted to lose me less than she wanted to resent me. In a way, the deprioritization forced her to make that choice. 

Prime is right in that she has to make a choice to involve herself in the marriage. But keep in mind that if she does not try to communicate, she IS making a choice. Some make the mistake of labeling fence-sitting as indecision, when in fact it is anything but. It is her actively choosing to NOT invest in the marriage...nor in you.

Your conversation tonight was a good start. Continue to try to communicate until your deadline. Continue to meet her needs. Continue to advocate for your needs. Continue to improve and become a better version of you. Work specifically on your insecurities as they will lead you to need more from your wife, and to pick a poor partner should your marriage end. 

If things progress...awesome. If they regress, make sure to love yourself enough to refuse to tolerate the intolerable.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Generally speaking, deprioritization works if the other person stands to lose a lot. If they don't, there's really no point in playing games.

I mean, if she values your companionship yeah she has a good chance to want to turn it around. If she stands to hit the jackpot in a divorce settlement, why bother. That's not common these days or if she works. If you're bankrolling her lifestyle and divorce messes that up, maybe she may reconsider. Not sure how permanent...

If it's neutral then she's not likely. 

There have also been cases where the brain's self preservation neurons cease to fire and the person goes down a destructive path because they're not giving in. In other words, they choose blowing up the marriage even if they risk a lot. This ain't common and generally speaking could indicate some underlying cause... or very strong resentment. 

Petty as it sounds, at the end of the day it really boils down to "are a handful of hours every month involved in intimacy bad enough to destroy the marriage" ??? For some people it could be.

For most normal people, being deprioritized is a lot of alarms. For a small minority they don't care. Do it long enough and you detach and that's all she wrote.

If anyone could have told me I'd walk out of 30+ years of marriage as easily as walking out of a car dealership having traded my Saab... don't do that.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

GO,

You seem to be indulging your self in nervous talking. As a result - G2 says nothing. If my main man GreenOrb doesn’t start distinguishing betwixt talking and communicating - game over.

Buddy - watch some definitions and see what’s what. 

1. Communication - the real deal - means we are telling each other stuff we don’t already know. 
2. When talking devolves to one person speaking almost all the words - and nothing they say is new information - that isn’t communication. It is something - but that thing isn’t constructive. 

Watch: laughing - babe, your killing me - This is like me pushing on a string. Do you even value our marriage?

Stop saying: I know you love me, but it hurts you never say it

I believe that you desperately want her to love you. I’m not sure she does. Not like a wife loves a husband. M

Stop cueing her to say what you want to hear, and just ask what is true. 




farsidejunky said:


> GO:
> 
> Look, I am not trying to be overly pessimistic when I say this, but rather realistic... especially given that I also did things the hard way by giving my wife likely too much time to decide to get back into our marriage.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Just to validate - you have the right goal

Your execution has been unhelpful to date, because you talk to much. The more you say, the less she can get away with saying.

At the moment - your sex life seems like a power struggle. As her how you can change that. Tell her it feels like she has no failth that you two can make the experience good for her. 

And then - after asking - get her to talk....



GreenOrb said:


> It’s clear from everything above that I need to get G2 talking.
> 
> I tried to get G2 into bed last night but it didn’t happen. We’d been out all day with the kids and she was tired. I was fine, I was quite tired too.
> 
> ...


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## Don't Panic (Apr 2, 2017)

GreenOrb said:


> Thanks for the brief history. Helps give perspective. So far I’ve been working on myself, but feels like I’ve got about as far as I can get by myself alone. I think the only way I can move on from here is get G2 to talk to me and agree to come along for the ride. I know the problem I’m going to have is G2 seems to not want to open up to me.
> 
> Sex with my previous girlfriend had been good. I’d thrown her around a bit and there’d been plenty of oral. So I thought the same would work on G2. But it was somewhat different. In general with G2 it was far more passionate, probably because I properly loved her (and fairly certain she loved me too), but less adventurous. However, we did have a few very drunken times which were really good.
> 
> ...


The woman wants confidant, assertive, *creative*, fun, edgy sex with you. Not rough, and not "dominant" in the traditional s/m sense. You can do this GreenOrb. Got any tables in your house? :wink2:

~From someone who spends a lot of time on balconies.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

farsidejunky said:


> Think about a timeline; a date by which her continued lack of involvement will result in you calling things off. Without it, you run the risk of perpetual limbo.


Crucial point: do not tell her the deadline. Do not even tell her there is a deadline. The deadline is an agreement between you and yourself. To move on if you do not see significant progress by the deadline.

And frankly, I think the progress you need most is for her to be open to communicating her thoughts, feelings and needs. Not to hide herself from you. That part you should tell her. "Honey, it seems you are afraid to share some things with me. Not just your body, but your true thoughts and feelings. And withholding those is a deal breaker for me. If you can't share your true thoughts with me, then we have no marriage. if there is anything I can do to make it safer for you to share with me, please let me know."

Then, if she does work up her courage and share a thought or feeling that is unpleasant for you to hear, stifle your impulse to reply in kind and THANK HER FOR SHARING. It took me several years of thanking my wife for sharing unpleasant truths before she stopped doubting my sincerity. That I actually did want to hear the ways I disappointed her. That I actually did want to know the ways in which I fell short in her eyes. That I would not respond in kind or escalate or argue with her.

If she isn't being more open and honest by the time you reach your deadline, that to me is a worse sign than her not stepping up sexually. She can lie there and make herself available sexually without necessarily sharing her "real" self with you. And sharing her real self is the terrifying thing that you most desperately need her to choose to do.


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

First up I’m going to lay off any talks for a few days with G2. I’ve been pushing this for a while now and I think she may need a small break (and so do I to be honest!) so that I don’t start reversing any progress. I’m out a bit this week any way so makes that fairly easy.

But based on all the advice above I’m going to aim to get her talking. I’ll be gentle and just say that she can come to me when she’s ready and I’ll listen to whatever she has to say. Rather than asking leading questions and try to put words in her mouth. I’ll say something like, if we don’t talk we simply can’t improve our relationship and sex life and sooner or later that is going to do serious damage to our relationship. I need her help rather than her working against me. But only if she wants to help. If she doesn’t then that’s all I need to know.

One thing I have got out of her is that she’d much rather have sex in the morning. So I’m going to suggest later in the week that we have a lie in this Sunday and make sure the kids are watching a loud film on tv.

Right now I’m not sure where this will go. G2 is very stubborn and I can imagine her not talking simply because that is what she wants to do even if it does cause damage.

Either way, I’m tired of living in the dark. If she doesn’t give 2 s***s about me I’d at least rather know.




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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Sounds like a dodge, so don't be crushed when it doesn't work. For the avoider claiming you'd much prefer during the time the primary distraction (kids) are most active is a plan to not follow through. 

Having said that, one approach might be to let her know the night before. Maybe shop for the kids movie with her and mention the plan for tomorrow morning. Controllers are rarely up for spontaneous activity, but 8 hours of foreknowledge help them talk themselves into it. 

I also really liked Prime's post. My wife's transformation was not that much but it is a much better general attitude. It didn't ever happen until she finally internalized in her head that once a month was not reasonable. Also, for what it is worth. Took a LONG time, the patient waiting to see if anything has really changed seeming like a dead end in retrospect. The thing that worked in the end was 6 months of sustained 'I'm unhappy' talks. More and less with very blunt statements mixed in.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

@GreenOrb, take a deap breath. 

from what i have seen, you actually HAVE made progress. just keep trying different things. whatever works, do more of. keep talking to her, keep being open, and keep trying to find ways to get her excited about where you want the relationship to go.

to be honest, adopting a good frame of mind (one that is not self defeating) is the most effective thing you can do. you may stumble through everything else, but if you have a good frame of mind, then you will not self-defeat. 

just keep that in mind... you WILL succeed at producing a relationship with your wife that you love. dont think of it as a question of if, but of how. 

how are you going to do it? keep trying different things. do more of what works. if one thing doesnt work, try another. 

if your wife will chime in to help you do it, let her.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

GreenOrb said:


> First up I’m going to lay off any talks for a few days with G2. I’ve been pushing this for a while now and I think she may need a small break (and so do I to be honest!) so that I don’t start reversing any progress. I’m out a bit this week any way so makes that fairly easy.
> 
> But based on all the advice above I’m going to aim to get her talking. I’ll be gentle and just say that she can come to me when she’s ready and I’ll listen to whatever she has to say. Rather than asking leading questions and try to put words in her mouth. I’ll say something like, if we don’t talk we simply can’t improve our relationship and sex life and sooner or later that is going to do serious damage to our relationship. I need her help rather than her working against me. But only if she wants to help. If she doesn’t then that’s all I need to know.
> 
> ...


If you are going to allow her to fall back on being stubborn without consequence, nothing will change.

She should see that the only path to you remaining in this marriage is for her to swallow her pride.

Definitely take the open approach first.

If that doesn't work, destabilization is really your only option.

"Wife, I'm more than willing to meet you in the middle to improve our marriage. Only a fool tries to set sail with his anchor still set."


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Might not be swallowing her pride. Might be overcoming her fear. But she may never choose to do that.

GO should be 100% committed, optimistic and in a good frame of mind / upbeat. Right up until the day he hits his deadline. At which point he should whistle a happy tune as he skips off to the lawyer's office to have divorce papers drafted.

We all hope it does not come to that. We all hope that his wife chooses to join him on the journey toward each other before GO hits his deadline. Let us devote our thoughts and prayers to that outcome until it becomes clear that GO has embarked on a different path.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I guess everyone has to make their style work for themselves. But - to date - she has said very little. And when she says stuff that upsets GO, he cues her to retract it or soften it, and she does. 

The way this may seem to her is: Tell me the truth - no don’t say THAT

The best things M2 ever told me were hard to hear. My reflex reaction was usually to thank her for telling me. 





As'laDain said:


> @GreenOrb, take a deap breath.
> 
> from what i have seen, you actually HAVE made progress. just keep trying different things. whatever works, do more of. keep talking to her, keep being open, and keep trying to find ways to get her excited about where you want the relationship to go.
> 
> ...


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

If you do not make it safe for her to share unpleasant (to you) truths, then she will never share them. That doesn't make the truths go away, but it does pretty much ensure that you will never fix the problems.

You show your strength by remaining calm when she shares unpleasant truths. You show that you can take an ego hit and not punish her for it. You show her that she can rely on you to protect her. That is what will help her to feel safe, safe enough to take a risk and become vulnerable enough to work through difficult issues with you. Does not guarantee she will choose to work through them. But not keeping her safe - attacking her for sharing unpleasant truths - pretty much guarantees that she won't.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This is beautifully said. 

She has to believe that you want the truth - whatever it is. 

And if I were her - it would take me a while to adjust to the new improved husband and his new and higher expectations.




Holdingontoit said:


> Crucial point: do not tell her the deadline. Do not even tell her there is a deadline. The deadline is an agreement between you and yourself. To move on if you do not see significant progress by the deadline.
> 
> And frankly, I think the progress you need most is for her to be open to communicating her thoughts, feelings and needs. Not to hide herself from you. That part you should tell her. "Honey, it seems you are afraid to share some things with me. Not just your body, but your true thoughts and feelings. And withholding those is a deal breaker for me. If you can't share your true thoughts with me, then we have no marriage. if there is anything I can do to make it safer for you to share with me, please let me know."
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I agree with this sentiment. 

For me, the delivery would be: If this doesn’t work out, won’t be because I don’t love you, rather that I’ve concluded you don’t really love me. 




farsidejunky said:


> If you are going to allow her to fall back on being stubborn without consequence, nothing will change.
> 
> She should see that the only path to you remaining in this marriage is for her to swallow her pride.
> 
> ...


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Or "you don't love me enough to face your demons for me".
Or maybe "I'm not worth enough - to you - for you to want to slay the demons that stand between us".


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

She's had plenty of time to speak her mind. Over decades. 

After a while it's her new "normal" and you're the "not normal".

The paradigm shift is getting out of this way of thinking.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

John,
Why was it her responsibility to speak up about their sex life for the last 15+ years? She was ok with 8/year. He wasn’t. 

The responsibility to speak up was almost entirely his. 

There is a faction on TAM, who seem unwilling to hold the H responsible - in these type situations. Their reasoning escapes me. 




john117 said:


> She's had plenty of time to speak her mind. Over decades.
> 
> After a while it's her new "normal" and you're the "not normal".
> 
> The paradigm shift is getting out of this way of thinking.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Fair question.

Let's say my daughter run up $200k in student debt and never told her bae. After all, he never asked.

Let's say I come from a family where some rather unfortunate mental health issue runs rampant. Should I talk about it to my prospective bride? No, she'll be ok with that.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

People talk. The question is whether the other side listens.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Those examples are completely different than this situation. 

A proper equivalence is: shortly after marriage I realize my partner is a spender. No matter what I do to save, they manage to undo. I max out 401k while they run up an equal amount of cc debt. All out there in the open, they aren’t concealing it, and I just go along to get along. Suddenly I decide that is enough - and at the 16 year point demand a genuine austerity program. 






john117 said:


> Fair question.
> 
> Let's say my daughter run up $200k in student debt and never told her bae. After all, he never asked.
> 
> Let's say I come from a family where some rather unfortunate mental health issue runs rampant. Should I talk about it to my prospective bride? No, she'll be ok with that.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

They're all the same in the sense one has expectations going into a marriage about what happens after marriage.

Unless they can write out the mother of all prenuptial agreements, one still depends on unwritten rules and expectations. 

We do not have information as to what happened or what they said to each other. Hence we can't know what transpired and what the state of things was. I'm not sure I buy the premise that he played along for 8x a year without a word. He would not be here if he first complained a decade later.. 

Just my interpretation.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The OP says that sex was fairly regular for the first few years. They didn’t marry til year six. 

He knew how she was when they married. They had their first child AFTER getting married, so he wasn’t under duress to marry, he chose to. 

John, Even though your specialty is never being wrong, it turns out that normal people make mistakes. And that improvement and growth often comes from recognizing those mistakes and acknowledging them. 

This is a tale as old as time - real love - well at least he loved her - despite huge compatibility issues. 




john117 said:


> They're all the same in the sense one has expectations going into a marriage about what happens after marriage.
> 
> Unless they can write out the mother of all prenuptial agreements, one still depends on unwritten rules and expectations.
> 
> ...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I'm not absolving him. Far from that.

But, I don't recall any expiration date on the wedding vows. 

What we have is more or less bait and switch in crude terms. We can debate semantics till we are blue in the face. They're both wrong here, but one of them went into the marriage under not quite honorable pretenses.

I'd bet it did not go from 8x a month to 8x a year overnight, either. Same old script. 

Why do you think I mentioned the end game?


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

Holdingontoit said:


> Might not be swallowing her pride. Might be overcoming her fear. But she may never choose to do that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thanks for the kind words.

I’m not sure if I’ll get all the way to divorce yet. Our kids are still fairly young (8 and 10) so not sure I could do it to them. Although if our relationship did actually fall apart, it may end up being for the best.

I’ve set an initial deadline for the end of the year. Seems like a reasonable point. I am trying to overturn 16 years of G2 considering me something of a third child who she doesn’t want to sleep with. So I think it’s only fair I give her some time to adjust.

If nothing happens then deprioritisation becomes my next move.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Hold on. They meet and have a vanilla but acceptably frequent sex life for a ‘few’ years. Frequency then drops. He isn’t happy but he is in love. So after a few years of a bad sex life he marries her anyway.

I believe she showed him her ‘true self’ before they married. Not very affectionate, not very sexual. Or at least that is how she is with him. 

He married her and is now unhappy. And I give him credit for being brutally honest about himself. He self describes as a mediocre partner for much of their relationship including much of their marriage. I think that honesty is to his credit. 

He took a hard look in the mirror and really improved. And there is no right or wrong in this situation just a very interesting aspect of human nature. When a person becomes a much better partner - they often expect/demand reciprocal effort from their other half. 

While I give him high marks for effort and sincerity, he is struggling mightily with this transition. Partly because his goal from day one was to get laid more often. Instead of first figuring out WHY he wasn’t getting laid. Perhaps it is more fair to say that he assumed that addressing his half of the mechanics of the marriage - resource creation and management - time, money and reliability - would have a big impact. Instead they’ve had very little impact. 

If you asked M2 what the most unsexy thing about me was, she would say: often too nice, lacks edge

And if you asked her what the hottest thing about me is she’d likely say: I can literally tell him anything 







john117 said:


> I'm not absolving him. Far from that.
> 
> But, I don't recall any expiration date on the wedding vows.
> 
> ...


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

@john117 @MEM2020

In some respects you are both right.

I certainly have complained about the lack of sex down the years and had the occasional blow up. But it’s never got me anywhere. I think deep down I knew I wasn’t really behaving like the man G2 (or any wife) would want me to be. So in some respects I maybe felt I “deserved” the lack of sex, and I wasn’t sure how to grow up and become the man I needed to be.

I’ve always been academically smart, but it seems to have taken me a lot longer to figure out life. But eventually life and my career have taught me what I wanted and helped me grow up. There is a huge amount I would change if I could turn the clock back. Although that probably goes for many of us.

So now I’ve finally grown up, and G2 is benefitting from this. Our relationship is far better. It is certainly possible G2 tried to talk to me many years ago, got nowhere and gave up. She used to be very critical of me (that’s almost gone now) so she was probably trying to tell me to be a better man but perhaps her method of delivery meant it fell on deaf ears.

I think now she still thinks the changes I have made are just to get more sex, so it may take some time for her to adjust.

I’m also willing to hear whatever she has to say to me. I’d rather just know the truth from her. She can only feel what she feels so I can’t hold it against her.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Never had to deal with the "not being the best I could be" part. But in my humble experience that doesn't buy any sympathy here.

After all, it's always the man's fault for putting up with everything and not inspiring revolutions. 

To be fair, I wasted a fair amount of time myself, because - there is that pesky term again - our end games didn't converge. It's like dude, we accomplished everything in our bucket list. McMansion, super smart kids, money galore, education... But, her end game wasn't what I had in mind or better yet, what we both had in mind a decade ago.

Intimacy was an issue but not the "casus belli" as they say in Portugal. We had the talks, and indeed her fear was that she'll have to spend the rest of her life in an apartment while her damned husband travels around the world. Because life is so much better if you live in the Czar palace in St Petersburg rather than a two bedroom apartment in Boston...

Now y'all understand why the end goal matters. Because humans are goal driven and don't take risks without a good reason. Mrs. Orb has some things in mind, and in her mind the end game is worth it.

In next week's lesson. How to determine the end game.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

GO,

Nothing to be embarrassed about. In a marriage where you love the other person, sex is normally the one unique way for them to demonstrate that they love you. 

You can stand tall and say: Sex is by far the most unambiguous way that I feel loved, or not. I’m doing what I can to show that I love you. 

——————-
That said - this is what she will be thinking consciously or subconsciously: If you really loved me, you wouldn’t pressure me to do something I don’t want to do. 

——————-
Which is why it is best that your focus being on getting her to WANT to work with you to find a way to improve the physicality in your marriage. 

——————-
But - that’s why your approach to date has not been well received. Your main play was a combo move: 
- I’ve stepped up, now I want you to
- Sex is fun for you when it happens, so let’s do it a lot more often

So far, she has fought you very hard. I think she believes that you want what you want. Recently you posted that she was tired one night and you initiated anyway. Of course you did. Her being tired let’s you excuse her rejection. It hurts less. It’s like when you mentioned initiating on a night when she came home agitated from a bad day at work. Same deal. But how does that come across to her? 

Fwiw - The worst thing that happens in a sexually healthy marriage is you get a sincere near term rain check. Or if it is simply understood that two rejections in a row are not ok. But the flip side is that you don’t initiate in situations where your partner has a legitimate and precedent based reason for not wanting to. I never - literally never initiate when M2 is openly tired or upset. Because it makes her feel bad for me to ask her to give herself to me when she is tired or feeling bad. 




GreenOrb said:


> @john117 @MEM2020
> 
> In some respects you are both right.
> 
> ...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

john117 said:


> Never had to deal with the "not being the best I could be" part. But in my humble experience that doesn't buy any sympathy here.
> 
> After all, it's always the man's fault for putting up with everything and not inspiring revolutions.
> 
> To be fair, I wasted a fair amount of time myself, because - there is that pesky term again - our end games didn't converge. It's like dude, we accomplished everything in our bucket list. McMansion, super smart kids, money galore, education... But, her end game wasn't what I had in mind or better yet, what we both had in mind a decade ago.


'End game' is a confusing term. Do you mean that your wife had a certain outcome in mind or that your ideas about life and/or your marriage began to diverge? 'End game' or the way you use it sounds like conspiracy theory term.

I can tell that in relationships (and in fact with most things), it's the feelings that change first. Then the rational mind adjusts (in your lingo: the rationalisation hamster begins spinning the wheel). So you would be contradicting yourself if you believed that she always (or for the last 10 years) had a certain outcome already cemented in her rational decision-making mind. It's much more likely it was the other way around: she felt (or stopped feeling) certain things and the outcome...well, **** happens. Sometimes by itself and without anyone at fault. 

You on the other hand seem to be rationalising that it was all a big conspiracy theory. Maybe it was but relationships are built on feelings first, then comes the rational mind. That's why so many relationships turn into 'pumpkins' at midnight. Feelings are unreliable and slippery.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

GreenOrb said:


> @john117 @MEM2020
> 
> In some respects you are both right.
> 
> ...



That is true however you are completely within your right to ask her how she feels and she *should* tell you honestly so you know where you stand. Because if it's something you can change, you seem more than ready and eager to change. However if it is something you *can't* change (for example she fell out of love with you but doesn't have the guts to tell you), then it's a whole other thing.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> 'End game' is a confusing term. Do you mean that your wife had a certain outcome in mind or that your ideas about life and/or your marriage began to diverge? 'End game' or the way you use it sounds like conspiracy theory term.
> 
> I can tell that in relationships (and in fact with most things), it's the feelings that change first. Then the rational mind adjusts (in your lingo: the rationalisation hamster begins spinning the wheel). So you would be contradicting yourself if you believed that she always (or for the last 10 years) had a certain outcome already cemented in her rational decision-making mind. It's much more likely it was the other way around: she felt (or stopped feeling) certain things and the outcome...well, **** happens. Sometimes by itself and without anyone at fault.
> 
> You on the other hand seem to be rationalising that it was all a big conspiracy theory. Maybe it was but relationships are built on feelings first, then comes the rational mind. That's why so many relationships turn into 'pumpkins' at midnight. Feelings are unreliable and slippery.


Humans are goal seeking. End of discussion. They may act irrationally at times but the fundamental behaviors are such that anyone from a gang bro in South Chicago to a housewife in suburban Louisville have goals. 

The goals may be stated and known, or implied, or assumed, or expected, and subject to Goals may not be obvious, but rest assured, they are there. Even the most irrational of people will rationalize goals that make sense to them using their version of bounded rationality. 

Feelings influence decisions. We start with your vanilla flavor rational choice theory. Adding emotional components results in more constructed than stable preferences that depend on the expected as well as the current set of emotions we have. 

What this all means, tho, is that we always have goals in mind. It's just that our emotions get in the way on occasion. But emotions aren't enough to derail solid long term goals. They may provide adjustments to the goal seeking strategies. When things go poof, the goals have changed because we choose to do so.

Consider her likely goal of having a happy family. But she isn't participating sexually or otherwise. If the happy family goal was out the window she'd simply walk out. If she's still there, why is it?

The basic question to ask is not "are we having sex this morning, week, month, quarter...". The question to ask is a bit more introspective. "What do you want out of this relationship". One year, five, ten. Get her in a good mood, take her to Starbucks where she can't throw a fit, ask the question, and listen. 

If she responds with a barrage of irrelevancies, maybe she doesn't know. But, chances are, she'll take the indignant look and clam up. 

And that's all the news she wrote.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

What does it mean if she clams up?



john117 said:


> Humans are goal seeking. End of discussion. They may act irrationally at times but the fundamental behaviors are such that anyone from a gang bro in South Chicago to a housewife in suburban Louisville have goals.
> 
> The goals may be stated and known, or implied, or assumed, or expected, and subject to Goals may not be obvious, but rest assured, they are there. Even the most irrational of people will rationalize goals that make sense to them using their version of bounded rationality.
> 
> ...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

john117 said:


> Humans are goal seeking. End of discussion. They may act irrationally at times but the fundamental behaviors are such that anyone from a gang bro in South Chicago to a housewife in suburban Louisville have goals.
> 
> The goals may be stated and known, or implied, or assumed, or expected, and subject to Goals may not be obvious, but rest assured, they are there. Even the most irrational of people will rationalize goals that make sense to them using their version of bounded rationality.
> 
> ...



I think this is the crux where I disagree and think that perhaps your, what you present as a ‘highly rational’ mind possibly has difficulty to relate to the idea that it’s actually the other way around for most people (the rational, ‘goal-seeking’ mind follows the intuitive/emotional part, not the other way around, when it comes to relationships).

The conclusion is the same though and you are absolutely right that one should discuss those things. But by those things I mean one should discuss ‘feelings’ and you can deduce from them what the potential outcome is likely to be. From: ‘I’m not sure I am in love with you anymore’, one can deduce that the relationship is likely to head into deep trouble. But that’s not because the spouse has always had ‘the break up’ as the goal in mind, it’s because their feelings may have changed or maybe changing in the first place.

The way you propose what is a very reasonable course of action, somehow makes the spouse seem like a monster if they have these ‘goals’ pre-determined in their minds. 

I think one has to also accept the reality that sometimes it is actually very difficult or impossible to articulate feelings properly and this is where communication is so tricky: the rational mind for example may not accept what the emotions/feelings are in fact signalling them and come up with all kinds of explanations that obfuscate the actual issue (e.g. ‘I am not sure we connect emotionally anymore’, ‘you are cold and distant’ (projection) ‘I’m tired and fed up always to be the one to be bothered’ etc). These explanations can sometimes be true but sometimes these phrases obfuscate the real issue due to the brain’s inability to understand, accept and communicate basic feelings efficiently.

If your theory was correct, then that wouldn’t be the case or the person would be extremely devious for knowingly misleading their partner like that. I don’t think they do that (in the majority of cases).

I have btw experienced it myself many times (where my rational mind dismisses a feeling and tries desperately to find a logical explanation that is in fact a ‘pulled out of the behind’ rationalisation rather than correct depiction of the feeling). You have to try and be extremely unbiased and honest with yourself to notice it but it happens all the time to everyone in fact.

I detect a slight ‘cognitive dissonance’ with you where you accept the premise that humans do rationalise all day long yet don’t accept that those rationalisations ‘misfire’ or miss their targets the majority of the time for the majority of people.
If the second is true (which it is), then it must follow that feelings/emotions come first and that the spouse does not ‘make’ goals for how relationships turn out: the outcome just happens, because it happens and nobody ‘plans’ for it in a way that your post suggests.



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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

When things screw up for us humans it's usually because of:

- selected wrong model to apply
- incorrect parameters provided
- incorrect estimates
- model too simple 

In general it's the last, meaning that the decision framework is not fully fleshed out and there are conditions not assessed properly or handled properly.

A bit of emotional input is expected but it is not common that one would simply go for the kill by disregarding all reason. We see it, but not often.

What's more likely with higher emotional content is that probabilities aren't properly estimated (emotional bias) or possible paths not considered.

The proper young woman who dates a skid row guy, or marries a serial cheater does so not because she is completely infatuated with one aspect throwing rational choice out the window. Instead, the perceived benefits are greater or options like the future aren't considered.

Long term relationship goals aren't made on the fly, incidentally. I'm at an age where my peers begin to retire and for the most part everyone has been doing what they said they would do a decade ago. Being in a long term relationship removes a lot of the emotional stratification of the decision making process - which explains why people are often stuck in crappy marriages. 

Isn't decision analysis fun?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> What does it mean if she clams up?


That's easy. She knows the answer and also knows it won't be good for her partner...

Careful observation during and after the process helps. I'd expect a clam up period to last a bit, too. Not quite "crickets.... Ten minutes pass... Let's go to Costco".


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

john117 said:


> That's easy. She knows the answer and also knows it won't be good for her partner...
> 
> Careful observation during and after the process helps. I'd expect a clam up period to last a bit, too. Not quite "crickets.... Ten minutes pass... Let's go to Costco".


Or she knows the answer but shame leads her to not want to discuss. 

How her partner views it is likely small in comparison to her toxic shame or preconceived notions associated with sex.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> Or she knows the answer but shame leads her to not want to discuss.
> 
> How her partner views it is likely small in comparison to her toxic shame or preconceived notions associated with sex.


That's one possibility. Of course, one person's toxicity is another person's culture...


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

MEM2020 said:


> GO,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You’re right here MEM. I’ve think I’ve been a little heavy handed. This came out in our most recent conversation although there was a ray of hope by the end of it.

I asked G2 if she wanted to open up and start talking to me today but she started getting defensive asking if I was going to have a go at her again. I’ve clearly been talking about sex a lot recently and maybe she’s had enough, so I dropped it.

Afterwards I texted her and said I just wanted to know what was going on inside her head, and she could tell me whenever she liked or not at all if she so decided. I also said sorry for being overbearing but I was in a hurry to make up for the previous 20 years during which I felt I had made a lot of mistakes.

She then asked if she had been one of my mistakes. I said no, the exact opposite. Then she texted back that she found the constant scrutiny of our relationship a challenge which she as why she didn’t feel like talking much but would try harder. She also texted she loved me very much and was far happier now I have started doing more. She has never verbally said she loves me, and only ever texted it once to me (when drunk). It could be a lie just to shut me up but it felt genuine.

This evening I said I thought she’d find it much easier if we just agreed on a time to have sex and stick to it. Mornings seem to be her thing so I suggested Sunday morning and she agreed.




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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

With this level and type of dialogue I'm afraid sex should be the least of your concerns. 

What you want is to get her to talk. And offer your insights. Don't worry about sex. Worry about connecting with her. If she thinks you're autistic and all you do is continue more of the same she will not move one inch closer.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

GreenOrb said:


> You’re right here MEM. I’ve think I’ve been a little heavy handed. This came out in our most recent conversation although there was a ray of hope by the end of it.
> 
> I asked G2 if she wanted to open up and start talking to me today but she started getting defensive asking if I was going to have a go at her again. I’ve clearly been talking about sex a lot recently and maybe she’s had enough, so I dropped it.
> 
> ...


two things...

acknowledge the text message where she said she loves you. "hey, wife, that was new. you said you loved me. i like that! i want to hear more of that!" 

and for the second thing... that suggestion to agree to have sex and stick to it... i think it was easier for her to accept it because she could find no judgement in it. not that you judge her, but that she probably feels judged often, whether you are trying to judge her or not. 

just a thought.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

To me, that sound quite encouraging actually.
Btw I also found some conversations are easier through texting for some reason.
Keep it up! 

PS: I don't think she texted she loved you to shut you up. It sounds like she is not comfortable saying those things much and for people who are not comfortable, they usually only say those things when they mean them. But I could be wrong. 



GreenOrb said:


> You’re right here MEM. I’ve think I’ve been a little heavy handed. This came out in our most recent conversation although there was a ray of hope by the end of it.
> 
> I asked G2 if she wanted to open up and start talking to me today but she started getting defensive asking if I was going to have a go at her again. I’ve clearly been talking about sex a lot recently and maybe she’s had enough, so I dropped it.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

GO,
Seems like a positive step. 

It is difficult to change the arc of a marriage. 

For the folks on your thread - this is a bit like a car ride where we are blindfolded 29 minutes out of every 30. A ways back I said - post about the stuff you do that you believe may create desire and the things you are having conflict over. 

It’s simply not possible to gauge what you are doing since you don’t share very much. For example - I told you early on - that an anxious partner needs very short - simple feedback. Think I said 20-30 seconds max. 

You need to define your message, compress it and deliver it in a calm voice. Her complaint about these relationship talks is driven by both their frequency and the emotional drain they have on her.

While it is true that you need to have sex to get better at it - it’s also true that you need to ask her if there is anything you are doing that feels bad to her. Just ask. If she stonewalls with: what do you mean?

Ask: To fast, too slow, too rough, too gentle, too loud, too quiet and then shrug, smile and say: I don’t want it to feel bad for you

And do not preface your query by telling her how great it was for you. 





GreenOrb said:


> You’re right here MEM. I’ve think I’ve been a little heavy handed. This came out in our most recent conversation although there was a ray of hope by the end of it.
> 
> I asked G2 if she wanted to open up and start talking to me today but she started getting defensive asking if I was going to have a go at her again. I’ve clearly been talking about sex a lot recently and maybe she’s had enough, so I dropped it.
> 
> ...


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

MEM2020 said:


> It’s simply not possible to gauge what you are doing since you don’t share very much.



I thought I was sharing, but clearly I’m not. I’ll use this weekend to share everything that happens, good and bad.

As a start, I have just been out for some drinks with some friends. G2 Stayed at home. She seemed slightly perturbed that I was going out without her. Almost like I had the audacity to do it, and leave her to bath the kids and put them to bed. I used to struggle with this and think that maybe I was doing wrong to leave her on her own for the evening. She often goes out with her friends which I actively encourage. I think it’s healthy to have a life outside family. Even so, it still bothers me that she seems to get upset by it.



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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

This is a hard thing to shake. 

Your thoughts on it are healthy. 

Her problem is that she is likely feeling insecure over your going out with your new outlook and high drive. 

It won't hurt her to feel a bit insecure. She has reason to.

She may throw it on you when you get home...lol


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

farsidejunky said:


> This is a hard thing to shake.
> 
> Your thoughts on it are healthy.
> 
> ...



Lol. Unfortunately not. She went to bed several hours ago and she is a very light sleeper. So I’m going to sleep in the spare room. She’s generally not her happiest after a bad night’s sleep.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

GreenOrb said:


> I thought I was sharing, but clearly I’m not. I’ll use this weekend to share everything that happens, good and bad.
> 
> As a start, I have just been out for some drinks with some friends. G2 Stayed at home. She seemed slightly perturbed that I was going out without her. Almost like I had the audacity to do it, and leave her to bath the kids and put them to bed. I used to struggle with this and think that maybe I was doing wrong to leave her on her own for the evening. She often goes out with her friends which I actively encourage. I think it’s healthy to have a life outside family. Even so, it still bothers me that she seems to get upset by it.
> 
> ...




Do you not talk or mention that you will be going out, before you go out?
If you discussed it and she was ok with it when you discussed it, why would it be a problem when you do go out?


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## FancyPants (Apr 12, 2018)

Rowan said:


> From the OP.
> 
> So, you've been married for 11 years and only started pulling your weight at home a couple years ago. Do you and your wife both work outside the home?
> 
> ...


This makes sense.

Op, the really here is really good. Simply doing your share of the housework isn't exactly acts of service". 

If she felt for many years that she was pulling more than her fair share of the load she might have grown to feel more like you mother than your partner. It sounds like you do love her very much and never waned her to feel that way, but it's not too late to change that. Try an act of service that goes above and beyond. Little thoughtfulnesses an add up. For example, if you know she's had a rough day, run a nice bath for her, light some candles and give her a chnace to relax in the tub while you put the kids to bed. Leave a note on the side of the tub that says you love her and want her to relax. 

If there is something you know she really enjoys as a hobby, a movie she always loved, an author she follows, there's some ideas there. If you have a garden, plant some of her favorite flowers or plants, prepare a special dinner for two for you to share after the kids are in bed for the night, if she had special flowers i her bridal bouquet, pick up a bouquet of those to bring home for the table and play recording of your wedding song while you eat and talk. 

Let her see that you see her as a romantic partner, and keep it up. A few months of doing your fair share of the housework won;t cut it.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This is priceless. I am being completely sincere. Very early in your thread you mentioned this exact theme. You went out with a friend and your wife complained after that she had had a tough day and was upset that you went out. 

I have been waiting for a second example, confident it would occur. 

Your wife has a core issue that I believe is at the heart of your marital problems. She is far, far more selfish than she realizes. 

It drives this type nonsense - which as you point out is totally asymmetric - meaning you encourage her to socialize without her - she is overtly negative about you doing the same. 

My view on this is simple: If I’m doing my fair share of the mechanics of life - AND - I’m spending a significant amount of quality time with my partner - they don’t get to try and prevent me from doing stuff that is good for me. Like socializing without them.

G2 seems to have a great deal of difficulty putting you and your wants/needs first. It’s why she has made so little effort to actually try and work with you on your sex life. 

Stop idealizing her. And start asking her why she isn’t happy for you in these situations. 

Same ground rules as always: No talking to her when irritated/angry/upset/anxious. Only when you are calm. Thirty second rule. Thirty seconds is a long damn time. If need be - write down what you want to say. Fifty words max. Max. 

And then I want you to try something you might not have considered. If her reaction is disappointing: Do not radiate anger. Instead - radiate disapproval. Body language only. Don’t speak. Trust me on this. Humans have an incredibly keen radar for disapproval. 

The emotional LEGO kind of looks like this: Anger is a secondary emotion triggered by hurt or fear. People who are easily hurt or frightened are viewed as weak. Weakness is a turn off. And it also often encourages aggression. Sadly we all carry around a lot of bad (legacy) primate DNA. 

Disapproval is a whole different thing. It signals the ability to dispassionately assess partner behavior and find it wanting. It is likely the single most powerful tool in your kit. 





GreenOrb said:


> I thought I was sharing, but clearly I’m not. I’ll use this weekend to share everything that happens, good and bad.
> 
> As a start, I have just been out for some drinks with some friends. G2 Stayed at home. She seemed slightly perturbed that I was going out without her. Almost like I had the audacity to do it, and leave her to bath the kids and put them to bed. I used to struggle with this and think that maybe I was doing wrong to leave her on her own for the evening. She often goes out with her friends which I actively encourage. I think it’s healthy to have a life outside family. Even so, it still bothers me that she seems to get upset by it.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Briefly revisiting this issue of bad (legacy) primate DNA. We all have some of it, and it drives a LOT of behavior in and out of bed. 

What I slowly figured out with M2 was that - she perceived anger as weakness and would almost always double down when faced with anger. Maybe not in the moment - but soon enough she would replicate the behavior that made me angry. 

Disapproval - delivered with a lite blend of edge and disbelief - well she reacted perfectly to that. At which point I would make a simple request: babe, next time it would be so nice if you were able to say: go have fun with your friends, I will see you later.

And do not let her play head games with you about the past. Sort of - you weren’t a great partner for the last 15 years so you can make up for it by never going out by yourself. 

First off - she knew what you were like when you two got married. And second of all - she is far from perfect. Filters 100% off for just a moment: she never says she loves you in speech, doesn’t much like being touched, did her best to avoid having sex, and resents you having friends. 

I get that she is pretty, smart, funny and organized. I’m just not sure if she’s actually kind. 

That said - like any primate - the stronger you seem - the kinder she will be TO YOU




GreenOrb said:


> I thought I was sharing, but clearly I’m not. I’ll use this weekend to share everything that happens, good and bad.
> 
> As a start, I have just been out for some drinks with some friends. G2 Stayed at home. She seemed slightly perturbed that I was going out without her. Almost like I had the audacity to do it, and leave her to bath the kids and put them to bed. I used to struggle with this and think that maybe I was doing wrong to leave her on her own for the evening. She often goes out with her friends which I actively encourage. I think it’s healthy to have a life outside family. Even so, it still bothers me that she seems to get upset by it.
> 
> ...


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

@MEM2020, i wouldnt just call it selfishness... indeed it is selfishness, but i think its more along the lines of insecurity. 

she does not feel safe with him. at least, not safe enough to fully open up. but, at the same time, she does not feel safe with him going out. so, her behavior is most likely born out of insecurity. she is afraid of him getting to close to her, but she is afraid of him being to far away at the same time. 

its like she has a narrative that tells her that she cannot be safe with him if he gets too close. there are two reasons why this might occur. one is that he has used her vulnerability against her in the past. that doesnt seem to be the case here from what GO has been telling us. the other possibility is that she believes that if GO REALLY knew her, he would not love her. that something about her makes her unlovable. 

from everything that GO has told us, it seems to me that he is well past where i was with my wife when i started the process of changing our marriage. in our case, we started from a position of ZERO trust. @Akinaura and i wrangled with each other in pretty gruesome ways at first. we were both vying for power, because we were both VERY insecure in regards to our relationship. 

GO is not where we were. he is far ahead of where we were. he applied just a touch of the tit for tat and she immediately responded. in our case, it had to go to mutually assured destruction before we could progress to where he is now. what he needs now is to find a way to get her to trust him enough to REALLY open up to him. he needs to find a way to let her know, without a shadow of a doubt, that he does NOT judge her. 

the only way i can see that happening is if he makes sure that his actions line up with his words. in order to do that, he will need to use his words to communicate what he intends to do. so, for instance, if he did not tell her he plans on going out with his buddies, he needs to start telling her well ahead of time. and then he needs to stick to it regardless of what she says. likewise, if he tells her he will do something for her, he needs to do it regardless of how he feels about it when it is time to do it. 

the only way she will be able to believe his words is if his actions line up with his words. when she can trust that the two are the same, then she will be able to believe him when he tells her that he loves her and does not judge her. we have all been giving him good advice, but a lot of it has been too premature. he needs to establish that he means what he says first. he needs to find a way to show his wife that he means what he says. only when his word is as good as his actions will his wife be able to believe him when he says "i love you".

and @GreenOrb, your wife is at a cusp. she does not know whether she should believe you or not. to be honest with you, i dont know if she should believe you either. you have only told small snippets of interaction between you and her. what is your goal with her? my goal was to see my wife happy, someone who pretty much hated me and caused me more headaches and grief than you can imagine. and i had no problem with temporarily crushing her soul if that was what it took. what is your goal? and how far are you willing to go for it?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> First off - she knew what you were like when you two got married. And second of all - she is far from perfect. Filters 100% off for just a moment: she never says she loves you in speech, doesn’t much like being touched, did her best to avI get that she is pretty, smart, funny and organized. I’m just not sure if she’s actually kind.


Quoting for emphasis.

GO, it is crucial for you to see what is as well as what you want it to be.

In order to set the right azimuth, the orienteer must know his location.


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> Do you not talk or mention that you will be going out, before you go out?
> If you discussed it and she was ok with it when you discussed it, why would it be a problem when you do go out?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




I think this is a hangover from when I wasn’t around very much in my previous job. She’d often feel a little deserted when I was barely there all week, then went out with friends at the weekend (although I wasn’t going out very often). Add my hangover the next day into that which often annoyed her as well, and it’s probably no surprise she used to get frustrated.

These days I’m more considerate. I got home at a reasonable time, and although I did manage to wake her up, she wasn’t particularly upset about it the next day. We’ve had a good weekend so far which I’ll explain in a post shortly.


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

FancyPants said:


> This makes sense.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thanks for the suggestions. And you’re right, I used to not do that much round the house so she obviously thought of me as someone else to clear up after an organise.

That has all changed now and I’m also trying to do extra things too. Today I’ve been telling her she deserves some time to herself so I’ll take the kids out for a few hours to give her some peace and quiet.


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

MEM2020 said:


> This is priceless. I am being completely sincere. Very early in your thread you mentioned this exact theme. You went out with a friend and your wife complained after that she had had a tough day and was upset that you went out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Along the same vein I have a few sporting hobbies which she seems to find tedious. I came home the other day from work so I could do a quick weights session. She asked why I came home and I told her and her eyes raised to the sky, like the reaction you would give to a naughty boy doing no good. I really didn’t understand that reaction. Next time I encounter it I’ll ask her what is going on in her head.


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

As'laDain said:


> the only way she will be able to believe his words is if his actions line up with his words. when she can trust that the two are the same, then she will be able to believe him when he tells her that he loves her and does not judge her. we have all been giving him good advice, but a lot of it has been too premature. he needs to establish that he means what he says first. he needs to find a way to show his wife that he means what he says. only when his word is as good as his actions will his wife be able to believe him when he says "i love you".
> 
> 
> 
> and @GreenOrb, your wife is at a cusp. she does not know whether she should believe you or not. to be honest with you, i dont know if she should believe you either. you have only told small snippets of interaction between you and her. what is your goal with her? my goal was to see my wife happy, someone who pretty much hated me and caused me more headaches and grief than you can imagine. and i had no problem with temporarily crushing her soul if that was what it took. what is your goal? and how far are you willing to go for it?



I have definitely been guilty in the past of saying one thing then doing another. Simple things like I would say I’d be home from work at one time, but something would com up and I’d end up getting home later. Or I’d often forget to do things that I’d say I’d do.

I think this largely stemmed from me being immature and not very confident. I’d often find it hard to say no to people, particularly at work, then G2 would be the that missed out. Some past tyrannical bosses have not helped my cause. I also didn’t like disappointing G2 so would tell her something she wanted to hear but then it wouldn’t happen. Which ultimately is far worse.

This is typical nice guy stuff and something I am now very aware of. Even if the message is difficult I now just tell G2 straight if I’m going to be home late (or something similar), then she knows where she stands.

However she is also someone with low tolerance levels and a fairly short fuse. So perhaps easier to annoy/frustrate than other people.

My goal is to make G2 happy, and get closer to her physically and mentally (if that’s the right term). I feel like she has never quite opened up to me and I’d like her to. I’ve never had any very close relationships in my life so maybe that’s slightly selfish on my part.



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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

GreenOrb said:


> I think this is a hangover from when I wasn’t around very much in my previous job. She’d often feel a little deserted when I was barely there all week, then went out with friends at the weekend (although I wasn’t going out very often). Add my hangover the next day into that which often annoyed her as well, and it’s probably no surprise she used to get frustrated.
> 
> These days I’m more considerate. I got home at a reasonable time, and although I did manage to wake her up, she wasn’t particularly upset about it the next day. We’ve had a good weekend so far which I’ll explain in a post shortly.
> 
> ...



Do you think that maybe the reason she would show annoyance or find something ‘tedious’ is because she would rather you prioritised spending your free time with her?

Perhaps she feels your priority distribution is:
1. Work
2. Going out with friends
3. Going out with work colleagues
4. Weights
5. Some other hobby (?)
6. Spending time with her/paying attention to the marriage

No wonder many women can end up being left with a feeling “I’m so down the list of his priorities and all he ever needs me for is sex”.

That’s where most of the disconnect happens in marriages.

While cultivating a life outside the marriage is important too, it is practically very difficult when you have a full time job, marriage and kids as well. The priorities should be set clearly and if she feels she is somewhere towards the bottom, then why should she feel eager to have sex?

On the other hand, she also can’t be too controlling over your life. (This also happens sometimes when wives get pushed I to a role of a controlling parent over their husband). There’s a balance in this but the way you are describing her reactions, when you clearly prioritise other things over her, makes it seem like you have no idea why she reacts the way she reacts. She is not ‘annoyed’ because you woke her up or have a hang over, she is probably annoyed because she would rather you were with her when you have the time off work.

Again, doing chores and helping around the house is all good and well but it is not a substitute for being emotionally (and physically) present for your wife.

Btw I’m just guessing here. It might be that she is a control freak too, I have no idea because she is not posing here and you will have to rely on your own judgement to determine this.



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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

You assume the wife is or has been emotionally receptive... I would not make this assumption without some good background. 

Do an emotional inventory to see what range of emotions she displays in different situations with him. If a full range is shown, then I'm obviously wrong. But if it's one or two emotions all the time, or none...


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

GreenOrb said:


> My goal is to make G2 happy, and get closer to her physically and mentally (if that’s the right term).


You can't make someone be happy.

They have to choose to be happy.

One can continually take action to make their spouse happy, and it will actually have the opposite effect. Why? Because they don't necessarily want to be happy, and it is yet another form of pressure in an already pressurized situation.

Be trustworthy. Be attentive. Be kind. Fulfill your obligations to your marriage and children. 

But do not try to make her happy. Give her the space to choose to be happy.


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

Some of the interactions between me and G2 over the weekend.

I got tea first thing, G2 was marginally annoyed that I had woken her up the night before when I came in from the pub, but it didn’t seem a big deal. We sat and drank out tea in bed and planned our day, I said I was going to sort the garden out which needed a lot of clearing up after the winter. G2 is a keen gardener, I am not, but I know she appreciates the garden looking good. In the past she may have asked me a few times first, so I just wanted to get on with it this time.

Mid morning, G2 had to take out daughter somewhere she didn’t know and seemed to be getting a bit stressed about it. She often gets stressed by things that don’t bother me in the slightest. I sat down with her, found where she was going on the map and told her how to get there.

G2 went out so I got on with the garden. When she got back we decided to go meet some friends for lunch at short notice. G2 went upstairs to get ready, she hates going out without her hair or makeup done. I started locking up the house, and getting the kids ready, then G2 started shouting down from upstairs. I shouted I couldn’t hear her which annoyed her, and she shouted to come nearer so I could hear her, so I did. She then told me in an irritated voice to lock the house up and get the kids ready. I said I was already doing this and she didn’t have to keep remining me of these things. I perhaps said it harshly because she said not to speak to her like that. Can’t quite remember what I said next but she calmed down when she realised I was already getting everyone else ready.

We had a nice lunch, then got home and continued clearing the garden. G2 had bought some food for a BBQ. So while doing the garden I cleaned out the BBQ, then bathed the kids. G2 does most of the cooking and is very good at it, so I like to do some cooking on the weekend to give her a break. I cooked us all a BBQ and we all ate outside.

Once the kids were in bed we had a nice evening chatting while watching TV. It reminded me of how well we get on with each other. We joked about how often we thought some of our friends had sex, then G2 mentioned she couldn’t be bothered to have sex tonight. I said that was fine, I was saving sex for Sunday morning when we had agreed to do it. I was expecting her to push back at this point, but she didn’t. She just said she wanted me to bring her a cup of tea first.

At some point in the evening she asked me to get some food out of the freezer for us to eat tomorrow. Later in bed she asked me if I had done it, and I had forgotten. She said with a wry smile not to worry, she had already done it.

Just before we went to sleep we had a cuddle. I’ve now worked this into our routine – I’ll put my arm out and I make sure G2 comes and cuddles me while I’m on my back. It used to be that I would go and cuddle G2, but it felt wrong that way round and I never got anything back from her anyway. I’m still driving all of the physical interaction between us, G2 never spontaneously comes and cuddles me, but she is far more receptive now when I initiate physical contact.

In the morning I went and made tea, then told the kids we were having a lie in and they could watch TV but not disturb us unless the house was burning down. I then took tea back upstairs and we drank it while chatting briefly. We both know this was the time we had arranged to have sex, and I suddenly realised it gave me very little time to “warm up” G2 to the idea. She seemed awkward and asked me if it was a bit seedy having sex while the kids were downstairs watching TV. I said no, it was perfectly normal, and was probably what many married couples do. I suggested that we could do it in the evening if that made her more comfortable, but she said no, she is even less in the mood in the evenings, and we should get on with it.

One the one hand I was pleased that she was committing to our plan, but it also felt like she just wanted to get it out of the way too. If there is a bell curve with responsive desire on the left and spontaneous desire on the right, then I think G2 is firmly on the very left-hand side.

I dispensed with most foreplay and just got on with it, and once the main event started she once again started to enjoy it. Like I’ve said before, I don’t think she fakes it, and she seemed to have an orgasm. Afterwards I asked if she had enjoyed it. She said yes, it was just she found it difficult to summon the motivation in the first place. To this day I’ve still never worked out how I can make her actively want to have sex. Right now the best I can do, is get her agreement, then somewhat force it on her until she starts enjoying it.

Later in the day we had a minor falling out, the first for a couple of months now. She took our daughter to a party mid morning. I then said I’d take our son out to give her some time to herself, then I’d pick our daughter up. Our daughter was only at a friend’s house in the same town about 10 minutes away, but I didn’t have the postcode. It was coming time to pick her up so I was about to text G2 for the postcode when she texted me saying the cats had pooped all over the kitchen and when was I coming home. I took that to mean she needed help, so I went home to find G2 running out the house in a panic saying she needed to go get our daughter. I said we’d agreed I’d go and asked for the postcode but she said there was not time and dashed off. Later we talked about it and we agreed that there had been a misunderstanding over G2’s text to me. But I learned a lesson here I should have learned a long time ago. G2 is highly strung so I need to communicate better with her so there isn’t the room for possible misunderstandings which can then get her wound up over things I don’t find particularly bothersome.

I got back in the garden in the afternoon, but we kept chatting. She was complaining that she felt like she never had enough time to keep on top of everything, even though I am doing a lot more now around the house and looking after the kids now I’m working nearer home. This wasn’t directed at me, but just a complaint about life in general, and we discussed her having some time off work to give her some breathing space. I sometimes think her problem is that she can’t relax unless all of the things on her list are done. But it’s impossible to have everything done, there is always something else to do.

In the evening we joked and took the p*** out of each other like we often do. I enjoy these kinds of interactions, but there are times when I’d like G2 to say something nice to me, which seems to be unable to do. She has a stereotypically British attitude of not being able to share any positive emotions with anyone close to you, even though I know she must feel them. While I’m not the kind of person who does it often, I think it is important to tell people how you feel sometimes.

This morning she was stressing about her work outfit which she clearly wasn’t happy with. I said she looked great, which I meant, but she still wasn’t convinced. I know that all women have hangups about the way they look, but she takes it to extremes. There have been numerous tantrums in the past when we have been getting ready to go out and she will claim she has nothing to wear and generally takes her frustration out on me. I especially don’t get it when I see a highly attractive woman in front of me.

When I lay it out cold like this, I know there is still more I can improve on, especially communicating better to alleviate things that she finds stressful. But she can also be quite a negative person who can’t seem to share her emotions. If I ever gush to her and say I love her she will usually respond by sticking her tongue out and making out I’m just being sickly. She thinks she’s being funny, and it sometimes is, but gets wearing after a while. I know I shouldn’t expect her to change, but can I ever get her to open up more? Maybe that will come with time now things are improving between us.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

GreenOrb said:


> In the morning I went and made tea, then told the kids we were having a lie in and they could watch TV but not disturb us unless the house was burning down. I then took tea back upstairs and we drank it while chatting briefly. We both know this was the time we had arranged to have sex, and I suddenly realised it gave me very little time to “warm up” G2 to the idea. She seemed awkward and asked me if it was a bit seedy having sex while the kids were downstairs watching TV. I said no, it was perfectly normal, and was probably what many married couples do. I suggested that we could do it in the evening if that made her more comfortable, but she said no, she is even less in the mood in the evenings, and we should get on with it.


Maybe you can approach it like a 'prescription' from a doctor for now or a trip to the gym. It's also a question of habit. She will eventually associate sex with the release of positive hormones and it will not feel like a chore eventually. I just think twice a week would be more productive. I know you don't want to push her on this.

I can almost feel her 'anxieties'; they are vivid from your writing (that she is always stressing about this or that and has no 'room' in her head to think about relaxation and letting things go in her mind and find the time to herself. It's as if she needs to 'control' everything in order to be able to go through life).
Maybe approach it from that perspective? She could try yoga or meditation or have sessions with a counsellor about this; I think it's important to realise that we don't have that much control over everything and get so bogged down with the little things in life that we miss life itself. There's sometimes no point in stressing out about it too much. (She has to come to this realisation on her own, through therapy).

Btw this is all coming from someone who is pretty anxious himself (though it has no impact on my libido) so it's hypocritical of me to even mention it. But living stress-free (or with reduced stress) is an art form that should not be underestimated and that we should all strive towards.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Excellent progress. 

Firmly tell her that shouting from another room is fine if the house is on fire. And then left her know she should assume that you can’t hear her and are choosing not to shout back if she does this in the future. 

That said - in the most important and difficult area, she is making an effort. And that is not easy at all. 

You handled her kids are up deflection beautifully. Grace under pressure - well done. 




GreenOrb said:


> Some of the interactions between me and G2 over the weekend.
> 
> I got tea first thing, G2 was marginally annoyed that I had woken her up the night before when I came in from the pub, but it didn’t seem a big deal. We sat and drank out tea in bed and planned our day, I said I was going to sort the garden out which needed a lot of clearing up after the winter. G2 is a keen gardener, I am not, but I know she appreciates the garden looking good. In the past she may have asked me a few times first, so I just wanted to get on with it this time.
> 
> ...


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> Maybe you can approach it like a 'prescription' from a doctor for now or a trip to the gym. It's also a question of habit. She will eventually associate sex with the release of positive hormones and it will not feel like a chore eventually. I just think twice a week would be more productive. I know you don't want to push her on this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Two times a week would be ideal, but I think if I tried that now I would run into a brick wall. At the moment she has agreed to 26 times a year vs 8 time previously, so for her this is a reasonable step forward. I’ve told her that I’d like to get her to once a week but every two weeks is fine for now. I’m hoping it will gradually become a habit for her and then the move to once a week won’t seem quite so drastic.

Her anxiety is something we have discussed. I’ve told her it is something we should work on which she does agree with, although I think I’ll have a hard time getting her to see a therapist. She’s quite proud and I think going to see a therapist would be an admission of some kind of failure on her part. Although I think her mother has been to see one, and I know her grandmother became very insular later in life. I’ve told her I don’t want her to go the same way. So I think this is something we now need to try and tackle together.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

GO,
First and foremost, you are approaching this situation in a thoughtful, reasonable and patient manner. Those are likely the main reasons why G2 isn't stonewalling you.

Don't be demoralized by my feedback. I am neither smarter, tougher or hotter than you are. The primary difference between us is that I married someone who is - radically honest. And untroubled by the niceties documented in the Geneva convention. So my learning curve was a bit steeper than yours.

1. You've captured this anxiety theme with sincerity and precision.
2. Her anxiety is your opportunity. You don't have to, and cannot, fix it, you can however be the catalyst for her fixing it. And frankly, more than the catalyst, she can eventually come to see you as her primary bulwark against anxiety.
3. All anxious people are self focused when they feel anxiety. ALL OF THEM. The less anxious G2 feels, the more bandwidth she will have for you. 
4. Second to last point: do not connect her anxiety to your sex life. Don't do it. Address it as a completely discrete issue that degrades her quality of life. Because it really does.
5. Figure out how to hit her endorphin triggers. This is my primary magic. This is the main reason M2 truly, deeply, madly loves me. I am the one certain antidote to her angst. That plus the fact I make her laugh. 

The endorphin management process is a multichannel activity:
A. I am immune to her anxiety. I am therefore completely calm. 
B. Calm while being fully engaged. 
C. I don't dismiss, dispute or disagree with her underlying anxiety triggers. 
D. Instead I acknowledge, empathize and accept them. This I do via four distinct channels: facial expression, touch, tone of voice and words. My touch is either a hug, a lite back massage or a combo.
E. And I proceed to reassure, soothe and comfort M2. While accepting that she may or may not return to equilibrium in a timely manner. Supportive and patient. As patient as need be.

I never try to pressure her to feel calmer/better on my timeline. Instead I let her talk much as she wants til she is completely finished. At which point I ask: is there anything I can do to help you?

I make no suggestions or recommendations. None. Merely ask that one question. 








GreenOrb said:


> inmyprime said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe you can approach it like a 'prescription' from a doctor for now or a trip to the gym. It's also a question of habit. She will eventually associate sex with the release of positive hormones and it will not feel like a chore eventually. I just think twice a week would be more productive. I know you don't want to push her on this.
> ...


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

MEM2020 said:


> GO,
> First and foremost, you are approaching this situation in a thoughtful, reasonable and patient manner. Those are likely the main reasons why G2 isn't stonewalling you.
> 
> Don't be demoralized by my feedback. I am neither smarter, tougher or hotter than you are. The primary difference between us is that I married someone who is - radically honest. And untroubled by the niceties documented in the Geneva convention. So my learning curve was a bit steeper than yours.
> ...




MEM, I certainly don’t feel demoralised by your (or anybody else’s) feedback.

Before I started posting on TAM I had read countless other threads by men in similar situations to me (and a few women) and it seemed almost universally that they had simply married non-physical people who weren’t interested in sex and their relationships were doomed. So I didn’t hold out much hope initially.

There are clearly some very experienced, astute and brutally honest observers on this board and the advice I have received so far has got my sex life into a far better position. And perhaps more importantly it has improved my relationship with G2 and helped me understand myself and her far better. I’m glad people don’t dance around here and just get straight to the point.

I expect I probably let G2’s anxiety rub off on me sometimes, and often feel like I let her moods dictate my own. Next time she has a meltdown I’ll put your advice to use and see how it goes.


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## DayOne (Sep 19, 2014)

As'laDain said:


> where is @DayOne... he went from a different starting point, but im willing to bet he would spot the underlying issue as well...


Wait, wut? Been away from TAM. Cliff's please.


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

So I thought I was done for now, our relationship is heading in the right direction and sex is increasing. But something happened tonight I wasn’t expecting.

We were watching a tv show where someone got dumped, so I asked G2 if anyone had ever dumped her, then as an afterthought I said “apart from me”. As far as I’m aware I am the only person who ever dumped her so it was probably a little harsh, but then she shot back that she has never forgiven me for it and still doesn’t fully trust me. This I didn’t see coming.

It’s probably worth telling the whole story. It was about 4 years into our relationship (so about 14 years ago) and G2 was very stressed at work and taking all her frustrations out on me. I was too weak back then to tell her to stop. That much I’ve already said.

However at the same time I became interested in a woman in my office. I got to the point where I thought I wanted to date the office woman instead. I didn’t want to be dishonest and cheat on G2 so I dumped her thinking I would then start going out with office woman. However it never got that far. G2 contacted me about 5 days after we broke up and a few days later I realised I still loved her and had made a serious mistake. About 2 weeks after the break up we were back together.

At the time I was honest with G2 and told her about office woman which felt like the right thing to do. I also said I had felt like she had taken her stress out on me, but I should have said something rather than let it fester. She did quiz me on office woman a few times, she wanted to know her name and what she looked like which I told her. But given I had been honest I thought it was all long forgotten. We’ve got married and had two children together since then. But clearly not.

I also think she thinks I might take after my father. About 15 years ago, by pure chance I opened a letter addressed to my mother (she was on the phone to me and wanted to check if she had received something in the post). The letter said that my father was having multiple affairs and and gave several names I recognised. I didn’t say anything to my mother or father and to this day I don’t know if the letter was true or just a really bad joke.

I was upset by it and told G2 at the time, but I suspect she thinks the letter might be true and as a result I think she wonders if I might end up being the same. I have a vague recollection of her making a few comments to that effect in the past.

It was late tonight when she told me she still didn’t fully trust me so we’ve agreed to talk about it tomorrow night.

With hindsight this now makes sense. I’ve always felt like she has never quite opened up to me. I’ve always put it down to her unaffectionate nature but maybe this is the real reason.

I was upfront the first time around, but clearly that didn’t work like I thought it would. All I can think to do is say the same things again. That I love her and always want to be with her. But then in her eyes I would say that wouldn’t I.

I imagine if a woman doesn’t fully trust her husband then that is going to reduce the intimacy between them and have an impact on their sex life. Any advice anyone has on what I can say to her so that she’ll trust me now would be greatly appreciated.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This feels like a tactic. And fwiw - this is extreme outlier behavior. 

Meaning - she got engaged, married had children with you. All the while (SILENTLY) nursing, nay - clinging to the grievance of a short breakup from 17 years ago while you were dating....

She has literally put ALL her chips betting that you are the right hand to play in life. But doesn’t trust you? 

If that is true - it is hard to see you ever getting to a good place with her. Ever. 

Marriage without the occasional painful incident - isn’t possible. So a healthy marriage without the ability to recognize and forgive outlier behavior - meaning that this was a one time thing.

In most sexually broken marriage the LD person reverse engineers reasons why the lack of desire is their partners fault. 

Funny how this is coming up now. 




GreenOrb said:


> So I thought I was done for now, our relationship is heading in the right direction and sex is increasing. But something happened tonight I wasn’t expecting.
> 
> We were watching a tv show where someone got dumped, so I asked G2 if anyone had ever dumped her, then as an afterthought I said “apart from me”. As far as I’m aware I am the only person who ever dumped her so it was probably a little harsh, but then she shot back that she has never forgiven me for it and still doesn’t fully trust me. This I didn’t see coming.
> 
> ...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

I actually think you are spot on here. Trust is very difficult to rebuild. I broke up twice with my wife very early on (for stupid reasons), and I feel that only very recently, like 20 years later, she can trust me 'almost' fully. I say almost because sometimes I say or do something where I notice that she shuts down quickly. And it has perfect correlation with our sex life: no trust, no sex.

Trust is a tricky thing; takes a second to break, but an eternity to rebuild. I think telling her about the office woman was a mistake (but there's no point now of me saying this). You can't demand trust, you have to earn it. You have to make her feel that there's no one who can ever come between you (if that's what you feel).

Oh and don't make jokes like that about dumping her.



GreenOrb said:


> So I thought I was done for now, our relationship is heading in the right direction and sex is increasing. But something happened tonight I wasn’t expecting.
> 
> We were watching a tv show where someone got dumped, so I asked G2 if anyone had ever dumped her, then as an afterthought I said “apart from me”. As far as I’m aware I am the only person who ever dumped her so it was probably a little harsh, but then she shot back that she has never forgiven me for it and still doesn’t fully trust me. This I didn’t see coming.
> 
> ...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Oh and what MEM said is also possible...So I dunno.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

While it’s deceitful - her to you - for G2 to run the DISTRUST play, it is self deception for you to gobble it up. 

That is the ego protective shield slamming down. If only I can get her to trust me. Then her natural attraction for me will kick in.

Kind of ironic - she’s starved you of sex for 15 years - you’ve never cheated and she doesn’t trust you.





GreenOrb said:


> So I thought I was done for now, our relationship is heading in the right direction and sex is increasing. But something happened tonight I wasn’t expecting.
> 
> We were watching a tv show where someone got dumped, so I asked G2 if anyone had ever dumped her, then as an afterthought I said “apart from me”. As far as I’m aware I am the only person who ever dumped her so it was probably a little harsh, but then she shot back that she has never forgiven me for it and still doesn’t fully trust me. This I didn’t see coming.
> 
> ...


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> This feels like a tactic. And fwiw - this is extreme outlier behavior.
> 
> Meaning - she got engaged, married had children with you. All the while (SILENTLY) nursing, nay - clinging to the grievance of a short breakup from 17 years ago while you were dating....
> 
> ...


This.

I would put it to her exactly that way.

This isn't a reason. It's a smoke screen.

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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Reading your posts, I just see so many parallels between your wife's reactions and mine and actual events that took place over the years...it's scary.

It may be the case that your wife is 'using the past as an excuse' to explain her feelings to herself. But I never felt that my wife was doing that. I actually did feel that her trust to me was damaged (through those two short breakups) and it was difficult to get her to open up and fully trust me again for a very long time. 

I inadvertently pushed her away by breaking up (this was in the first year or two of our relationship and for a very short period of time) and she must have realised that she just cannot give herself to someone 100% if they can just go ahead and break up with them like that - I found it a perfectly reasonable explanation for her behaviour. I do believe this feeling can stay with one for the majority of their life and doesn't just get shaken off easily. Living together, going through difficult experiences and supporting each other, proving that you are always there for each other, again and again are all the things that will solidify and help those ripples in trust created a long time ago heal over time. You have to be very careful here because only YOU can know (if she doesn't tell you) whether her actions are due to indifference towards you or due to the damage in the trust that were created in the beginning of your relationship. 

I felt my wife never stopped loving me in spite of everything that happened and what stopped her from showing it to me was driven primarily by self-preservation: not ever wanting to be in the position to be open for hurt again. Maybe I was biased and blind, because I wanted this to be true, but that made sense to me, when I understood more what 'getting your trust damaged' actually means.

In 22 years of being together, she also had opportunities to hurt me inadvertently (and not deliberately) and she now knows neither of us are perfect human beings. And it's those small realisations that over time, makes the other person gradually shed their shells of self-protection, bit by bit, and become more open to being able to love (and being loved) again. But don't expect it to happen overnight.




GreenOrb said:


> So I thought I was done for now, our relationship is heading in the right direction and sex is increasing. But something happened tonight I wasn’t expecting.
> 
> We were watching a tv show where someone got dumped, so I asked G2 if anyone had ever dumped her, then as an afterthought I said “apart from me”. As far as I’m aware I am the only person who ever dumped her so it was probably a little harsh, but then she shot back that she has never forgiven me for it and still doesn’t fully trust me. This I didn’t see coming.
> 
> ...


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

@GreenOrb, i also dont get the impression that your wife is using the "trust" thing as a tactic. i think it is a genuine issue. 
@inmyprime, i agree with your assessment.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

inmyprime said:


> Oh and what MEM said is also possible...So I dunno.


i doubt it. not with the way it came out. 

it didnt come out as a reactionary response to being pressured. it wasnt a situation where she was being pressured to provide a reason for anything...

it was how she responded to him asking her if anyone had dumped her besides him. i would guess that the way he brought it up triggered a lot of old feelings about it, so she just told him what she felt.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> While it’s deceitful - her to you - for G2 to run the DISTRUST play, it is self deception for you to gobble it up.
> 
> That is the ego protective shield slamming down. If only I can get her to trust me. Then her natural attraction for me will kick in.
> 
> ...


As a woman, I have to agree with Mem and Farside. There's a difference between still recalling the sting of being broken up with decades ago, and perhaps being a teeny bit reserved in love generally forever after, because you realize you CAN be broken up with in this life----and the life of extreme non affection and intimacy GO's wife has provided him.

I agree, smokescreen.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Both could be the case simultaneously as well. If he feels his recent changes in behaviour have had a positive effect it’s likely to be trust issues. But if the frequency still remains extremely low forever after then it’s also an LD issue in addition.
There’s never really only one reason anyway.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

DayOne said:


> Wait, wut? Been away from TAM. Cliff's please.


GreenOrb is bumbling through a lot of changes to himself. he seems to be doing fairly well so far, to me at least. he is at that awkward phase of changing who he is, where he second guesses everything because it is all new territory.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Deep sigh. As a fanatic follower of the series “Lie to Me”, I reluctantly acknowledge the analysis below. I think it’s likely accurate. 

And since Prime is pattern matching on his marriage - regardless GO needs to address this. My belief is that trust is both a choice and a feeling. If your partner chooses not to make incremental choices increasing trust - not much you can do about that.





As'laDain said:


> i doubt it. not with the way it came out.
> 
> it didnt come out as a reactionary response to being pressured. it wasnt a situation where she was being pressured to provide a reason for anything...
> 
> it was how she responded to him asking her if anyone had dumped her besides him. i would guess that the way he brought it up triggered a lot of old feelings about it, so she just told him what she felt.


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

MEM2020 said:


> Deep sigh. As a fanatic follower of the series “Lie to Me”, I reluctantly acknowledge the analysis below. I think it’s likely accurate.
> 
> 
> 
> And since Prime is pattern matching on his marriage - regardless GO needs to address this. My belief is that trust is both a choice and a feeling. If your partner chooses not to make incremental choices increasing trust - not much you can do about that.




To me it feels like Prime is right here. While I’ve never cheated on G2, I haven’t exactly been Mr Reliable for the last 15 years and so perhaps G2 has had a hard time putting her faith in me. There have been plenty of times when I’ve probably let her down. Only small things like being home from work later than I said, but add them all up and perhaps it’s no surprise I haven’t restored her trust after all this time.

I’ll ask later and find out for sure.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

GreenOrb said:


> MEM2020 said:
> 
> 
> > Deep sigh. As a fanatic follower of the series “Lie to Me”, I reluctantly acknowledge the analysis below. I think it’s likely accurate.
> ...


Wow you are clinging on to this. If a woman loves you and is attracted to you, small things like getting home from work later than you estimated aren't going to make her unaffectionate and not sexual.

Neither is an extremely short break up back from when you were dating. Eons ago.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Rationalization hamster training material...

My guess is Occam's razor. She's not sexual, period. I can come up with 100 reasons, all valid, and all irrelevant.

Some people exercise. Others hate it. It's not any different.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Livvie said:


> Wow you are clinging on to this. If a woman loves you and is attracted to you, small things like getting home from work later than you estimated aren't going to make her unaffectionate and not sexual.
> 
> Neither is an extremely short break up back from when you were dating. Eons ago.




These things can have a cumulative effect though. I know that was the case in my marriage: once you plant those seeds of doubt and insecurity, they can and do grow. The dynamic gets skewed and it takes quite a humongous effect to turn it around.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

john117 said:


> Rationalization hamster training material...
> 
> My guess is Occam's razor. She's not sexual, period. I can come up with 100 reasons, all valid, and all irrelevant.
> 
> Some people exercise. Others hate it. It's not any different.



But ‘she’s not sexual’ is just another one of those 100 reasons...How do you pick one?


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Livvie said:


> Wow you are clinging on to this. If a woman loves you and is attracted to you, small things like getting home from work later than you estimated aren't going to make her unaffectionate and not sexual.
> 
> Neither is an extremely short break up back from when you were dating. Eons ago.


if the breakup bothered her more than she let on, then she may have never dealt with it properly. she could just be throwing out smoke screens, but i would not be surprised if she developed coping mechanisms as a result of the break up that put a wedge between them.

for instance, if it shocked her, she likely took what he said to heart about him feeling like she was taking all of her stress out on him. if she decided that it was not safe to talk to him about things that were bothering her, it would mean that she will never be safe to fully open up to him, as doing so would cause him to leave her. 

over time, i can easily see that leading to a habitual disconnect, where they never really open up to each other. this can be fixed, of course, but its going to take @GreenOrb showing her that he is not afraid of her and will not abandon her as a result of her baring the unsavory emotions to him.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> But ‘she’s not sexual’ is just another one of those 100 reasons...How do you pick one?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I mean, her reasons for not being sexual.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The proof is in the pudding. If she's not communicating then he's not a miracle worker. One can set up a few psych experiments () to help determine what's going on but in a healthy relationship this should not be happening. 

In other words, she sees that she benefits from the status quo, keeps quiet about it, and all is good.

And all of a sudden OMG he opened his eyes OMG what do we do...

My tiny violin is at the violin shop otherwise I'd play a bit of a sad tune...


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

If my husband had dumped me during our dating days, when we had been together for 4 years because he was attracted to someone else at work... I can't imagine the level of hurt that would cause. A very deep scar for sure. 4 years is a long time to spend together to throw it away because you think you might want to try someone else. It can be forgiven and moved past... until you brought it up in a rather harsh manner. I would definitely feel a knife jabbing into that scar to have my husband say "Has anyone dumped you before...except me of course"... my gut reaction would be a flash of anger and hurt. That's all I see here from what she said. 

Honestly, you said you worked away from home a lot for years and years right? And that you weren't particularly involved at home either domestically or with your kids until very recently, right? It sounds like she has become used to living her own life without you... in so many ways you'd have to build a sustainable life for yourself apart from your husband if he just wasn't there a lot of the time. I am sure it is difficult for her to adjust to the new normal, where you want to fully integrate into her life again and she doesn't know how to let you in. She may not trust that you are serious about these changes yet either. And comments like bringing up how you dumped her don't help her to forget all of the little hurts she carries around. 



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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

She married him way after that. Marrying someone with a huge unresolved issue is dishonest. 

Combining working late with breaking up is a bit much.



As'laDain said:


> if the breakup bothered her more than she let on, then she may have never dealt with it properly. she could just be throwing out smoke screens, but i would not be surprised if she developed coping mechanisms as a result of the break up that put a wedge between them.
> 
> for instance, if it shocked her, she likely took what he said to heart about him feeling like she was taking all of her stress out on him. if she decided that it was not safe to talk to him about things that were bothering her, it would mean that she will never be safe to fully open up to him, as doing so would cause him to leave her.
> 
> over time, i can easily see that leading to a habitual disconnect, where they never really open up to each other. this can be fixed, of course, but its going to take @GreenOrb showing her that he is not afraid of her and will not abandon her as a result of her baring the unsavory emotions to him.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

MEM2020 said:


> She married him way after that. *Marrying someone with a huge unresolved issue is dishonest*.
> 
> Combining working late with breaking up is a bit much.


what difference does it make? GreenOrb needs to figure out what works, not what should be or should have been. the only thing that matters is where GO wants to go, and how he can get there. the more relevant information he has, the better equipped he will be to get where he wants to go.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

MEM2020 said:


> Deep sigh. As a fanatic follower of the series “Lie to Me”, I reluctantly acknowledge the analysis below. I think it’s likely accurate.
> 
> And since Prime is pattern matching on his marriage - regardless GO needs to address this. My belief is that trust is both a choice and a feeling. If your partner chooses not to make incremental choices increasing trust - not much you can do about that.


funny you mention that show... someone mentioned that in my last behavior symptom analysis class. i had never heard of it. 

im going to have to watch it at some point...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

kag123 said:


> If my husband had dumped me during our dating days, when we had been together for 4 years because he was attracted to someone else at work... I can't imagine the level of hurt that would cause. A very deep scar for sure. 4 years is a long time to spend together to throw it away because you think you might want to try someone else. It can be forgiven and moved past... until you brought it up in a rather harsh manner. I would definitely feel a knife jabbing into that scar to have my husband say "Has anyone dumped you before...except me of course"... my gut reaction would be a flash of anger and hurt. That's all I see here from what she said.
> 
> Honestly, you said you worked away from home a lot for years and years right? And that you weren't particularly involved at home either domestically or with your kids until very recently, right? It sounds like she has become used to living her own life without you... in so many ways you'd have to build a sustainable life for yourself apart from your husband if he just wasn't there a lot of the time. I am sure it is difficult for her to adjust to the new normal, where you want to fully integrate into her life again and she doesn't know how to let you in. She may not trust that you are serious about these changes yet either. And comments like bringing up how you dumped her don't help her to forget all of the little hurts she carries around.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk



That’s how my wife described it to me (the knife thing).


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> She married him way after that. Marrying someone with a huge unresolved issue is dishonest.
> 
> 
> 
> Combining working late with breaking up is a bit much.



But trust is a spectrum thing, not an on or off thing. It doesn’t disqualify someone marrying you, unless you have full and unconditional trust. Then no one would (and should) be and stay married.
Trust can even fluctuate over a course of the day.


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

kag123 said:


> And comments like bringing up how you dumped her don't help her to forget all of the little hurts she carries around.




It was a crappy thing to say and I shouldn’t have said it, or certainly not in the way I did anyway. I just got lucky that it has unearthed something I never knew - that G2 is still holding some resentment towards me for something that happened long ago.

We talked about it last night. It was a long conversation and from my point of view what G2 said made a lot of sense.

She said she had never forgiven the way I broke up with her - we had been together 4 years then out of the blue I just ended it. At the time she was having a hard time at work and taking her frustration out on me, but she felt I should have said something to her rather than just letting it build up and then making a snap decision.

She said that’s also partly why she doesn’t fully trust me. She wonders sometimes if I might do something like this again, or, make some kind of rash decision and maybe leave. Her feelings on this have been exacerbated by the fact that a number of times during our relationship I’ve had some episodes as she called them. What she meant by this is I’ve had a few occasions when I’ve had some serious crises of confidence in myself and my career path and basically completely flipped out. I wouldn’t put them in breakdown territory but I have threatened at times to completely throw in my career. I think G2 has probably found some of these occasions very unsettling, especially when her career has now taken a backseat to raising the kids.

Ironically it’s these episodes that have actually made me become more sure of myself, helped my realise what I’m good at and know the types of people to avoid.

I asked if she trusted me from a fidelity point of view. She said that basically she did, and she didn’t think I was the type who would be having an affair behind her back. Although she maybe wondered what would happen if I got close to someone at work again.

I actually felt all this was reasonably fair and I said so. However I did respond by saying that my reactions today would be very different to how I reacted 15 years ago. I was immensely immature then and didn’t know how to handle G2 properly. Today I said if she was being unreasonable to me I’d tell her so, but then ask her what was wrong and did she want to talk about it. And I had actually learnt a huge amount from my episodes and would know what to do if I found myself under similar pressures again.

I also said I wouldn’t be stupid enough to have my head turned by someone else. I loved her, and I felt we had the potential to have great marriage going forward.

She seems to agree that my reactions today would be different. I finally said I couldn’t make her forgive me but I felt I deserved it and it would be bad for our relationship if either of us harboured long term resentments. She said she would think about it. G2 is proud and doesn’t like to give things up easily which is why I think I got this response. I’ll ask her again in maybe a month or two and see what I get back.

She also mentioned that she has at times over the years tried to talk to me but not got very far. Either I didn’t listen, or didn’t really understand what she was trying to say. She could be right, I’m not sure. But I think at times I’ve been dismissive of things that have bothered her. I simply said I was far more grown up now, understood the stresses life can throw at you, as she well knew, and I therefore hoped she could come to me with anything that was bothering her. She said she felt maybe she could and she’d try more.

Felt like I handled it ok. Although as Asla said a lot of this is new to me.

Given this topic should be about sex, probably worth mentioning that. Been a week. I’m currently sticking to plan A, every 2 weeks for now. So we will be having another “lie in” next weekend. Humour tends to loosen G2 up so I’ve bought a pair of underpants with a tiger on the front (she was always a fan of the Rock DJ video - folks in the US might need to look that up!). We’ll see how that goes down.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

GreenOrb said:


> She said she had never forgiven the way I broke up with her - we had been together 4 years then out of the blue I just ended it. At the time she was having a hard time at work and taking her frustration out on me, but she felt I should have said something to her rather than just letting it build up and then making a snap decision.
> 
> She said that’s also partly why she doesn’t fully trust me. She wonders sometimes if I might do something like this again, or, make some kind of rash decision and maybe leave. Her feelings on this have been exacerbated by the fact that a number of times during our relationship I’ve had some episodes as she called them. What she meant by this is I’ve had a few occasions when I’ve had some serious crises of confidence in myself and my career path and basically completely flipped out. I wouldn’t put them in breakdown territory but I have threatened at times to completely throw in my career. I think G2 has probably found some of these occasions very unsettling, especially when her career has now taken a backseat to raising the kids.


Yep, for my wife it was her work too at the time when we drifted apart quite significantly. But the two minor break ups happened much earlier on (first or second year when we got together 20 years ago or so) so perhaps the damage done was smaller, I don't know. She used to say the same thing about worrying that I might just leave her at any time and she had (and still sometimes has) stress dreams about it. It's almost like a fear of abandonment, but given the history (both mine and yours), it's not an irrational fear.

And we had very similar talks. MANY of them. They really do help a lot to understand what's going on and you have to keep reassuring her. They also sometimes act as a great aphrodisiac...

Still. 6 times a year is very very low...Those trust issues, coupled with an LD physiology may be what the main problem is. You can fix the trust issues over time, I am sure of it, but I can't predict what the boost in frequency is going to be in the end. But it's not all about sex (nor should it be).


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> Yep, for my wife it was her work too at the time when we drifted apart quite significantly. But the two minor break ups happened much earlier on (first or second year when we got together 20 years ago or so) so perhaps the damage done was smaller, I don't know. She used to say the same thing about worrying that I might just leave her at any time and she had (and still sometimes has) stress dreams about it. It's almost like a fear of abandonment, but given the history (both mine and yours), it's not an irrational fear.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I agree with your final sentiment. If push really came to shove I could divorce G2, spend 2-3 years dating, and probably find someone who is naturally HD. But would I find someone who I get on as well with. Who knows.

G2 is my best friend and that counts for a lot to me. All the sex in the world can’t make up for a lack of personal connection.

So if G2 starts trusting in me and believes in the man I’ve now become then maybe I can gradually turn this around.

Thanks to all who have posted. Feels like I’ve come to the end for now. I’ll maybe update this thread at some point once it’s been a few months and I can gauge whether things are really improving.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

How are you holding up, GO?

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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

farsidejunky said:


> How are you holding up, GO?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk




Hey farside. Right now it’s steady as she goes.

G2 is so far sticking to our agreement of sex every 2 weeks, although I’m still having to push pretty hard to make her.

Our 3rd bi-weekly session was during the weekend jut gone. I’ve taken to reminding G2 a couple of days before now. Given she is at the extreme end of responsive desire I think she needs this amount of time to wrap her head around the fact we are going to have sex. Even though she knows it’s coming, if I spring it on her on the day she gets a lot more difficult.

Even this weekend she was trying to wriggle out, at one point suggesting I could go and just masturbate on my own. I explained that masturbating didn’t even come close since what I love about sex is the emotional closeness it brings to our relationship and I can’t do that on my own. I think it may have finally sunk in this time!

When I had her on the bed naked she was still being awkward and trying to keep her legs closed and cover herself up. But I’m beginning to understand these games she is playing now. I eventually lost patience and just flipped her on her front and spread her legs from there. That quickly seemed to have the desired effect, and it was the best sex we’ve had in a very long time. And finally a position other than missionary.

So feels like things are heading in the right direction. I want to get to a place where she is just accepting of the fact that we will have sex on a regular basis - not there yet, but feels like as every session ticks by she’s slowly letting her guard down more. And the sex is actually getting better. I think doing it more regularly is making me more confident in bed which I’m hoping will have the knock on effect of helping her enjoy it more. Certainly seemed to be the case the weekend just gone.

Once she’s more accepting of regular sex then I can try and increase the frequency, but that could be 6 months to a year away. I’m willing to take this slow given how long I let our lack of sex go on for.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

GreenOrb said:


> When I had her on the bed naked she was still being awkward and trying to keep her legs closed and cover herself up. But I’m beginning to understand these games she is playing now. I eventually lost patience and just flipped her on her front and spread her legs from there. That quickly seemed to have the desired effect, and it was the best sex we’ve had in a very long time. And finally a position other than missionary.



Yep, sometimes you just have to go for it. Not being able to make up one’s mind and two partners waiting for each other to make the first move can be infectious (in a bad way).

Stick to schedule and if she doesn’t hate it, try to move it to once or twice a week.
She will be much more horny during ovulation so keep an eye on that too.


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## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> Yep, sometimes you just have to go for it. Not being able to make up one’s mind and two partners waiting for each other to make the first move can be infectious (in a bad way).
> 
> Stick to schedule and if she doesn’t hate it, try to move it to once or twice a week.
> She will be much more horny during ovulation so keep an eye on that too.
> ...




It seemed to be less about making the first move, and more about me trying to find a move she would accept. I think Prime you may have mentioned once before how your wife often preferred it when she was facing away from you (can’t quite be bothered to trawl through 600 posts to find it). But that seemed to work with G2. As soon as she was on her front, couldn’t look at me and fight me off it was as if only then could she bypass her good girl urge and give into me. Maybe that’s reading too much into it, but seems to make sense to me.

We have some holidays planned later in the summer so I’m aiming to use these to see if I can increase frequency.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

GreenOrb said:


> It seemed to be less about making the first move, and more about me trying to find a move she would accept. I think Prime you may have mentioned once before how your wife often preferred it when she was facing away from you (can’t quite be bothered to trawl through 600 posts to find it). But that seemed to work with G2. As soon as she was on her front, couldn’t look at me and fight me off it was as if only then could she bypass her good girl urge and give into me. Maybe that’s reading too much into it, but seems to make sense to me.
> 
> We have some holidays planned later in the summer so I’m aiming to use these to see if I can increase frequency.
> 
> ...


Yes, basically she would turn her back to me rather than 'embrace' me with her arms (and legs) open (like I would expect, because that's how I saw it in romantic movies). That behaviour confused me a lot until I saw that exact same thing on National Geographic or on safari trips we did (especially with lions). I also thought she wasn't turned on and wanted me to leave her alone whereas that was apparently her way of 'coming onto me'...:scratchhead:

She explained later (much later!) that it had something to do with the fact that she didn't want to make it 'too easy' for me to have access; either because she had hang ups about it or because of some trust issues.

But it kind of turned into a domination/submission type of thing eventually; because I am stubborn and persistent, I would go for it and overpower her (gently) and it turned out that it turned her on. A lot. When combined with dirty talk (now that I am a bit more confident with that stuff), it really hits the bulls eye with her. It doesn't have to be anything elaborate, just telling her (confidently) what you are going to do to her, to build up the anticipation etc.

It may not apply to you but she likes to play the innocent one. I think she used to feel guilty about having sex (or wanting to have sex) for some reason. She's not religious so not sure where it was coming from in the first place. So it all felt a bit weird for me because I always imagined sex like in the movies (romantic) and not so much the animalistic type (more like in porn etc). But it's the latter that did the trick for her. You'd think that with women who have hangups, you'd want to approach them with a lot of care, respect and patience...Totally wrong. She actually needed the exact opposite plus much more edge.

But having been through it, we now have all kinds and all of them feel great and natural. It's good to maintain the variety (especially for a guy I think; you can get stuck in a routine and it can quickly become boring).

But for the time being, maybe stick with the way that works, to get over that initial hurdle (where she is sitting on the bed, all tense etc; that's too exposed, maybe try to avoid it). Once she gets going, it should be fine (as is with most responsive desire). And eventually she will hopefully stop associating whatever it is she is associating it with, that gives her trouble to let go initially.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Until G2 stops fighting you on frequency - I would be hesitant to agree that your assessment of how good the experience is for her. If it really is great - her behavior towards you in the days after - will reflect that. 




GreenOrb said:


> Hey farside. Right now it’s steady as she goes.
> 
> G2 is so far sticking to our agreement of sex every 2 weeks, although I’m still having to push pretty hard to make her.
> 
> ...


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