# Duty sex only



## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

Might as well share mine. Let me start by saying I really do love my wife, and have NO DESIRE to ever cheat on her or leave her. We've been married 9 years, together 11, and have 2 young kids. We actually have a great relationship, except where sex is concerned.

Typical story; great sex while we were dating, honeymoon phase, throughout her first pregnancy, right up until our first was born. Things tapered off a little bit, but I still feel our sex life was as good as it can be with a new baby. Then our 2nd/youngest was born 3.5 years ago. We waited the appropriate amount of time to resume sexual activity after the birth, but it was never the same after that. Even though we wouldn't trade anything, going from 1-2 kids was TOUGH, especially on my wife. Suddenly, me pestering her for sex just put me in the same category as the needy children. We ended up mastering the art of the "quickie", because that was all that we had time for. Eventually, all our sex became quickies, at her request. I knew she was stressed, I was happy to be getting anything. I just figured this was a phase that would pass. 

But a couple years ago it actually occurred to me; my wife gets no enjoyment out of sex. There's no passion, no foreplay, nothing. The more I brought this up, the more annoyed she got. Oral sex is completely off the table, giving or receiving. She has absolutely no desire to have any foreplay at all. She doesn't even want to try to pretend to enjoy sex, much less have an orgasm (at least not with me... don't know if she masturbates or not, but I wouldn't be surprised if she doesn't). She still allows me to have sex with her 1-2 times a week, except during shark week. But this is strictly for me to get off. The only thing it does for her is allows her to not feel bad for being one of "those wives" who never gives it up. She even initiates sex with me maybe 1/3 of the time, which confuses me even more. Why does she initiate if she doesn't want to do it? She then proceeds to take her clothes off like she's at a doctor's office, gives me a hand job just to make sure I get hard, and then away I go. Maybe 1 out of every 4 times she makes any noise at all... it's actually pretty awkward. Makes me feel bad, like I'm just using her vagina to masturbate with. As soon as we're (I'm) done, there is no pillow talk. It's just right back to "Tomorrow I have to get up early and get this done and get the kids ready and yada yada yada...". Any attempt to address the sex we just had and her lack of enthusiasm is met with immediate defensiveness, and telling me I'm putting too much pressure on her. 

For awhile, it was really tearing me up inside. She is such a kind, loving wife... until it comes to sex. She doesn't think our sex life is an appropriate thing to talk about. It's like she has a completely G-Rated mind. She gets easily offended if other people even talk about sex or make dirty jokes. The kids sleep with us most nights, and I think that's her way of avoiding intimacy, even though she denies this. I found a couple articles in her search history (I'll explain why I was looking in a second) about how to overcome sexual aversion and how to get back her sex drive as a mother of 2 young kids. She doesn't know why her sex drive is gone, but she is confident that one day it will return. She says she wants to want to have sex... whatever that means.

Before anybody starts, I truly don't believe she's having an affair. I researched this very thoroughly for one year and never came up with even one shred of proof that she was cheating. I was extremely paranoid. I kept thinking that the reason she wouldn't give me oral is because she was giving it some other guy. It took me down a dark path, but I'm off of that now. I suppose nothing is certain, but I truly don't think she is. And if she is cheating on me, and I found out about it, then that's her problem, not mine. 

I suppose I'm just venting. It feels good to get this stuff out there, I don't really have anybody I can talk to about this. All my friends are either miserably married, or are divorced and tell me "Just divorce and go bang girls on Tinder... it's great!!!" Then of course, there's the "friends" who say "that sucks, my wife has sex with me in every way possible for an hour every single day, twice on the weekends... you must not be any good at sex, or she's having an affair." BTW, I am not bad at sex. She thoroughly enjoyed herself earlier in our relationship, as did other girls before I got with my wife.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Do you think she enjoyed sex early on in your relationship or was only doing it for you?


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

I'm engaged, and getting married next month, so I've been reading articles lately about motherhood, and for some women, they have a hard time feeling sexy after having kids, at least in the beginning years. I have a friend who just had a baby, and she shares her story with me, that sounds just like you and your wife, only she has no interest in sex, it's ''just another thing to get done,'' she says. I don't think she means to hurt her husband, but he obviously is hurting because intimacy is an important part of the relationship. Do you guys have date nights? If not, maybe try to start spending time together once per week or whatever, just you two, without the kids, and see if that changes the mood. Maybe she just can't separate being a mom since the kids came along, and then shifting into a sex mind set with you. Hope things get better.


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## RideofmyLife (Dec 18, 2015)

Well, if she's reading that article, it means she's also concerned about it. You don't think she ever masturbates? If she wants to want to have sex, maybe she could look into orgasm tease and denial. If she were to masturbate almost to the point of orgasm, and then stop, and did that two or three times a day, that would get her in a much more sexy frame of mind. But she'd have to want to do it. Not quite sure how you'd bring that up, either.


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

Your wife sounds like a good woman. It's a real testament to her character that she does something she has an aversion to, just to make you happy, and keep her vows. I know it's hurtful to you in some way, for her to not desire you, but having kids can sometimes mess with a woman's hormones and lady parts.

When she says she wants to want to have sex, she's expressing that she wants to desire you, she just doesn't know how to fix whatever problem she's experiencing. My suggestion would be to try and help her. A christian sex counselor might be beneficial. The counselor might be able to bring your wife to the discussion table, and open up the lines of communication about the subject of sex.

A visit to a doctor and a round of tests might help too, if you can get her to open up and pursue a solution with you.


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## jsmart (Mar 14, 2015)

You need to up your game. Though it's common for mothers libido to tamper down after a 2nd child, there are things that you can do to create more attraction. 

If her desire for sex is down, the problem can be compounded by a husband that let's himself go. Many times we husband can get comfortable and not make an effort the way we did when we were trying to woo our wife. I'm not advocating non-stop effort but there has to be a balance. 

A date night at least once a month can help. An occasional small gift just because. Also you have got to take care of your appearance. Make sure you're working out and eating right so you can keep looking good. Also don't neglect your hair, clothes, and hygiene. If your wife notices you're looking good, she knows other women will notice as well. That can spur her to up her game by wanting to bang you.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

podiumboy said:


> Oral sex is completely off the table, giving or receiving.


Was oral always off the table? 



podiumboy said:


> I found a couple articles in her search history (I'll explain why I was looking in a second) about how to overcome sexual aversion and how to get back her sex drive as a mother of 2 young kids. She doesn't know why her sex drive is gone, but she is confident that one day it will return. She says she wants to want to have sex... *whatever that means.*


What this means is that her libido has disappeared, she wishes it hadn't and she'd like to get it back.

This is fairly common for women in a long term relationship after having kids. 

Her libido may indeed come back. Then again, it might not.

The good news is that she's aware of the problem and sees it as a problem. 

Now you need to get her to work with you on solving the problem as a team.

She isn't happy about it, but doing nothing and hoping her libido returns at some indefinite point in the future isn't the answer.


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## shrah25 (Mar 22, 2017)

podiumboy said:


> Might as well share mine. Let me start by saying I really do love my wife, and have NO DESIRE to ever cheat on her or leave her. We've been married 9 years, together 11, and have 2 young kids. We actually have a great relationship, except where sex is concerned.
> 
> Typical story; great sex while we were dating, honeymoon phase, throughout her first pregnancy, right up until our first was born. Things tapered off a little bit, but I still feel our sex life was as good as it can be with a new baby. Then our 2nd/youngest was born 3.5 years ago. We waited the appropriate amount of time to resume sexual activity after the birth, but it was never the same after that. Even though we wouldn't trade anything, going from 1-2 kids was TOUGH, especially on my wife. Suddenly, me pestering her for sex just put me in the same category as the needy children. We ended up mastering the art of the "quickie", because that was all that we had time for. Eventually, all our sex became quickies, at her request. I knew she was stressed, I was happy to be getting anything. I just figured this was a phase that would pass.
> 
> ...



Hi @podiumboy

Thanks for your message and your honesty.

I agree with you - I don't believe that your wife is having an affair. She sounds like a lovely woman who actually wants to serve you and not hurt you in anyway which is a real testament to her character. Here's the thing you need to be mindful of and ensure that doesn't happen.

At the moment, sex is primarily for you. She is serving you so that your needs are met which is a lovely act. However, you need to be mindful that if she continues to do this over and over, then there may be a bit of resentment that builds up over time. 

Reason being is that, every woman has their own levels of sexual activity and how they like the act of sex to be conducted. Some are more open and 'expressive' and some really like their partner to be a bit of a detective to some extent and really understand what it takes to turn her on. Based on my experience working with women, this is what it sounds like with your wife. But if she continues to give, give, give without getting her needs met, then that's where the resentment builds. She loves you and wants to help you but probably doesn't want to create drama by expressing her needs. This is where you come into play...

I think your first task is to find some time where you say that you are going to spend the next hour or two completely devoted to her. Be genuinely excited about getting to explore her body. Massage her, get some foreplay going but make it all about her - forget about you and simply devote yourself to her. She may be a little reluctant initially because it's not a common thing (i'm assuming you don't do this regularly?) but if you keep persistent and genuinely want to serve her needs, I'm 100% certain that she will let you serve her - but only if you make it about her and you don't treat it like it's a chore. If you are excited about the idea of serving her, you will win some massive brownie points for this. 

You know this, but don't listen to your mates about 'banging' women on Tinder and don't listen to them about your performance. Focus on serving her needs and you will be an absolute rockstar in her eyes.

Hope that all makes sense.

Cheers
Sri


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

Buddy400 said:


> Was oral always off the table?


No, it used to be a regular thing. She has not let me go down on her since our first child was born 5.5 years ago. I would be happy to do it at a moment's notice, though. The last time she did it for me was last year on my birthday, roughly 13 months ago. The thing is, that was the last time I asked. She might be willing to do it again, but I have not asked. She has not offered, and I just can't seem to find the words to bring it up. How can I say it in a way that isn't "I know you work part-time, go to college full time, and raise 2 kids, but could you also please put my **** in your mouth?" 

I'm quite sure she used to really be into sex before the kids. She used to buy lingerie, have orgasms on a regular basis (I know she didn't fake them all), make me have sex with her in risky public places, etc. It's like she doesn't even remember that she used to be that way. 

I take her out on dates, maybe once a month, but overnight babysitters are hard to come by. She's so worn out, and if we have an overnight babysitter, I know she'd rather get a full night's sleep than stay up having sex with me all night.


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

shrah25 said:


> Hi @podiumboy
> 
> Thanks for your message and your honesty.
> 
> ...


Honestly, I would rather focus on my wife's sexual satisfaction than my own. I feel like when the kids were babies we got into some really bad sexual habits (the quickies, but that was her idea). I really wish she'd let me. She doesn't let me even touch her vagina, really. I think that her sexuality is buried deep in her identity. Being a mother, a full time student and having a part time job I think has really taken over and smothered her sexuality altogether. I truly do not believe she masturbates. I would be happy if she did, and encourage it. But she seriously doesn't seem likes she even thinks about such things. I'm not being naive; like I said, it is my wish that she did masturbate, showing some signs of life down there. Maybe she does, but she denies it. 

I don't think she sees any problem. I'm getting sex on a pretty regular basis. To be honest, she seems genuinely happy to provide a hole for me to put my penis into. I am not some selfish husband who doesn't help out with the kids or clean the house. I do the dishes, I vacuum, I do laundry, I mow the yard, check the tires and oil in her car, etc, etc, etc. I'm happy to help her in any way I can. I don't think she would care about seeing a sex counselor, because in her mind I really don't think she thinks there is anything wrong with our sex life. Sometimes I bring up that she didn't seem like she was enjoying herself, and she replies "OMG, what do you want me to do? I'm not some porn star!" 

But I truly don't think she's unhappy in our marriage. She actually just arranged for her teenage cousin to babysit our kids so we can go on a date this Saturday. She's really looking forward to it, there's a new restaurant she wants us to try. 

I hate to admit it, but I let my friends get to me a couple months ago. I opened up to some friends at my buddies' bachelor party. The bachelor in question was a guy who was about to get married, and getting laid all the time. He had no ability to comprehend my situation. My other friend was in a sexless marriage with a woman who truly hated him; now he meets random girls on Tinder and has sex with them. My other friend hasn't had sex with his wife in 3 years, they're basically only together because they run a business together... he told me to quit *****ing about duty sex, and I couldn't argue with him. Yet another friend is not married, just got into a new relationship, and is having sex every day... he was no help either. It seems like nobody I know is in my somewhat unique situation.


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## ZDog377 (May 31, 2015)

podiumboy said:


> No, it used to be a regular thing. She has not let me go down on her since our first child was born 5.5 years ago. I would be happy to do it at a moment's notice, though. The last time she did it for me was last year on my birthday, roughly 13 months ago. The thing is, that was the last time I asked. She might be willing to do it again, but I have not asked. She has not offered, and I just can't seem to find the words to bring it up. How can I say it in a way that isn't "I know you work part-time, go to college full time, and raise 2 kids, but could you also please put my **** in your mouth?"
> 
> I'm quite sure she used to really be into sex before the kids. She used to buy lingerie, have orgasms on a regular basis (I know she didn't fake them all), make me have sex with her in risky public places, etc. It's like she doesn't even remember that she used to be that way.
> 
> I take her out on dates, maybe once a month, but overnight babysitters are hard to come by. She's so worn out, and if we have an overnight babysitter, I know she'd rather get a full night's sleep than stay up having sex with me all night.


My situation isn't exactly like yours, but the sex aspect is. Things were great when we were dating, went downhill after the first kid and have just about tapered off after the second. She just dropped the bomb on me one day that she's never desired sex. She only did it because she wanted kids. She feels it has no purpose now. Like you, it has become duty sex. She does it so I can get off but there is no passion behind it anymore. It's "get hard and get done". I've tried explaining that it's not about the getting off but about that connection/intimacy.


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

podiumboy said:


> How can I say it in a way that isn't "I know you work part-time, go to college full time, and raise 2 kids, but could you also please put my **** in your mouth?"


There's nothing wrong with communicating your desires to your wife. Ask her for what you want. You guys have a partnership, she takes care of you, you take care of her. Together, you then take care of your kids. Your needs are just as important as hers, and more important than your children's. 

Why is she working, going to college, and raising kids all at once? She needs to thin her responsibilities list. She should be able to keep you at the top of her list of priorities. When your spouse starts getting knocked down to the 3rd, 4th, or 5th place on the list, that's when other responsibilities need to be eliminated.

You and your wife are the foundation of your family. If the foundation suffers, so will everything built upon it.


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

jsmart said:


> You need to up your game. Though it's common for mothers libido to tamper down after a 2nd child, there are things that you can do to create more attraction.
> 
> If her desire for sex is down, the problem can be compounded by a husband that let's himself go. Many times we husband can get comfortable and not make an effort the way we did when we were trying to woo our wife. I'm not advocating non-stop effort but there has to be a balance.
> 
> A date night at least once a month can help. An occasional small gift just because. Also you have got to take care of your appearance. Make sure you're working out and eating right so you can keep looking good. Also don't neglect your hair, clothes, and hygiene. If your wife notices you're looking good, she knows other women will notice as well. That can spur her to up her game by wanting to bang you.


I needed to read this, and welcome more comments like it. While I don't believe I take my wife for granted, it's true that I don't put as much effort into "wooing" her as I used to. Sometimes things like buying gifts seems so impractical when you share a bank account. Like, "if you want something, buy it!" I know that's the opposite of what I should be doing, and I'm going to work on that. 

Ever since the kids were born, I've put on weight. I'm not morbidly obese or anything, but yeah... you look at pictures of me 10 years ago, and there's a considerable difference. That's a whole other struggle in my life, but you're absolutely right. I need to take care of myself better. As far as turnoffs go, I realize that it's probably not just the fat... it's the fact that I allowed myself to get that way that is the real turnoff, and also that I can't seem to do anything about it. I'm going to work on it, I really am. But I feel like my clothes, hair and hygiene are good. I honestly think my wife is very good looking, and would maybe be out of my league if we were both single now and I tried to approach her. My wife says my weight issue has nothing to do with her lack of sex drive, but I'm sure it doesn't help. And like you said, if she would see other women looking my way, that'd probably zap her libido back to life quicker than anything. That's one thing about when we were dating / first married. I had a lot of attractive female friends, some of whom I had a sexual history with. We were all just in the same social circle, and my wife encountered these women quite a bit. I never cheated. She would sometimes get jealous, but I really do think that fueled her sexually. Now, 11 years into the relationship, and I have no female friends, no female co-workers... she's basically the only woman my own age I ever interact with (I'm 35). I would still be sexually attracted to a woman who has the female equivalency of my body type, but I realize that for women it's not that simple.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

She's likely feeling touched out. Young kids are SO exhausting and it's hard for many women to understand the sexual urge their husbands feel when they themselves do not feel it.

I'd highly recommend explaining how you feel to your wife. Start with a very loving "I understand that you're exhausted with the kids and how hard you work with them. Here's what I need as your husband and here's how I think we can make it happen." And present a plan that will help ease the work off her 1-2 nights a week (or even start with 1 night a week if you're ok with that for now, if it's more passionate).

Women with young kids ALWAYS have something to do and someone to take care of, especially if they are co-sleeping. 

Plan ahead of time so she knows to reserve her energy. Come up with a way ahead of time to help her with the kids so she can save her energy for you. You take over bathtime/Stories/bedtime routine that night of the week. Let her unwind.

This takes the pressure off since it's only 1 night a week and she has your support, instead of adding another thing to do. I bet she will remember how nice it is to fully relax and engage with you.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

BioFury said:


> Why is she working, going to college, and raising kids all at once? She needs to thin her responsibilities list. She should be able to keep you at the top of her list of priorities. When your spouse starts getting knocked down to the 3rd, 4th, or 5th place on the list, that's when other responsibilities need to be eliminated.
> 
> You and your wife are the foundation of your family. If the foundation suffers, so will everything built upon it.


OH! Just saw this. I completely agree with this- this is WAY too much for a woman to have to manage. No wonder she's not into sex. Your wife has way too much on her plate. There's no way she can relax, she's in survival mode. Why on earth is she doing this?

Sorry, until something gives my pervious advice will not work. This is way too much for a mom of young kids in my opinion. All the vacuuming and car maintenance in the world is not going to help you get more passionate sex from this woman.


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

Jessica38 said:


> OH! Just saw this. I completely agree with this- this is WAY too much for a woman to have to manage. No wonder she's not into sex. Your wife has way too much on her plate. There's no way she can relax, she's in survival mode. Why on earth is she doing this?
> 
> Sorry, until something gives my pervious advice will not work. This is way too much for a mom of young kids in my opinion. All the vacuuming and car maintenance in the world is not going to help you get more passionate sex from this woman.


Indeed. Stress will absolutely kill a woman's sex drive. OP, you gotta thin the herd. Either college, her job, or both, need to go.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

podiumboy said:


> No, it used to be a regular thing. She has not let me go down on her since our first child was born 5.5 years ago. I would be happy to do it at a moment's notice, though. The last time she did it for me was last year on my birthday, roughly 13 months ago. The thing is, that was the last time I asked. She might be willing to do it again, but I have not asked. She has not offered, and I just can't seem to find the words to bring it up. How can I say it in a way that isn't "I know you work part-time, go to college full time, and raise 2 kids, but could you also please put my **** in your mouth?"
> 
> I'm quite sure she used to really be into sex before the kids. She used to buy lingerie, have orgasms on a regular basis (I know she didn't fake them all), make me have sex with her in risky public places, etc. It's like she doesn't even remember that she used to be that way.
> 
> I take her out on dates, maybe once a month, but overnight babysitters are hard to come by. She's so worn out, and if we have an overnight babysitter, I know she'd rather get a full night's sleep than stay up having sex with me all night.


You seem like a nice, thoughtful guy. You're worried that she's too tired for sex. You think that her giving you a blowjob is too hard on her. 

She doesn't behave as you would if you were in her position, so you believe that she must be thinking what YOU would be thinking if you did what she does.

You're a giver. You feel uncomfortable asking for things for yourself, about asking for your needs to be met.

For many women, their sexual desire is based on fulfilling YOUR sexual desire.

Read the first and watch the second.

What Men Think About Sex vs. Reality | The Huffington Post

understanding men alison armstrong - Bing video

Strange but true story:

Recently I was telling my wife that I had been really horny the previous day. She asked why I hadn't asked her for a blowjob. I told her that she'd been complaining about her tough day at work and seemed worn out so I thought it was too much to ask. She said "giving you a blowjob would have been just what I needed to get my mind off a tough day at work and feel good about myself".

For twenty years I thought I was making my wife's life easier by not asking much of her.

It turns out that what I was really doing was depriving her of the satisfaction of making me happy.

So. Be the best husband you can be and give your wife the opportunity to be the best wife she can be.

YMMV, but it's worth a try.


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

BioFury said:


> Indeed. Stress will absolutely kill a woman's sex drive. OP, you gotta thin the herd. Either college, her job, or both, need to go.


Believe me, I know. I want her to quit her job and focus on school. She's just finishing her 3rd year, and just one more left (I CAN'T WAIT UNTIL IT'S OVER!!!). I've convinced her to cut down to only working 2 days a week, and then she'll start working more after the semester ends next month. She refuses to quit, though, because it's important to her to feel like she's contributing financially. The extra money is nice, but it'd be a lot nicer to have a wife who isn't stressed out all the time.


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

Jessica38 said:


> OH! Just saw this. I completely agree with this- this is WAY too much for a woman to have to manage. No wonder she's not into sex. Your wife has way too much on her plate. There's no way she can relax, she's in survival mode. Why on earth is she doing this?
> 
> Sorry, until something gives my pervious advice will not work. This is way too much for a mom of young kids in my opinion. All the vacuuming and car maintenance in the world is not going to help you get more passionate sex from this woman.


Agreed. I don't vacuum, do dishes etc because I want to get laid, I do them because it's my house too, and because I want my wife to feel less stress. But you're right, there is very little I can do about this in the near future. Survival mode... that is perfect.

I really don't want my wife to have so much on her plate. She didn't decide to go to college until she was 28, with 2 very young kids. I was happy that she finally decided she wanted to do this. Before, she worked in a unfulfilling job at a pharmacy. I try to do as much as a possibly can to ease this poor woman's load.

I suppose all I can really do is ride this out and hope that things pick up down the road, when she has less on her plate. For now, I really have stopped pestering her for sex, and am just trying to be a good supportive husband instead. We basically only have sex when she initiates. My desire to get laid has been eclipsed by my desire to not be a groveling, pestering, needy little *****. We have a date night this weekend, babysitter lined up, but not for an all-nighter. I'm not going to entertain the idea of sex, but I am going to try to make it a good night for her.


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

podiumboy said:


> Believe me, I know. I want her to quit her job and focus on school. She's just finishing her 3rd year, and just one more left (I CAN'T WAIT UNTIL IT'S OVER!!!). I've convinced her to cut down to only working 2 days a week, and then she'll start working more after the semester ends next month. She refuses to quit, though, because it's important to her to feel like she's contributing financially. The extra money is nice, but it'd be a lot nicer to have a wife who isn't stressed out all the time.


You need to communicate that to her. She is misdirecting her efforts into something she feels you need from her, while neglecting your real needs. Sit her down and kindly tell her that her contributing financially isn't what you need right now. Don't back down. Don't go with the flow of "I can't wait till she can fulfill my needs again". Communicate your thoughts to her, and then ask her to quit her job.

Make your desires very clear "Babe, I would like for you to quit your job. I need you at home."


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

Buddy400 said:


> Strange but true story:
> 
> Recently I was telling my wife that I had been really horny the previous day. She asked why I hadn't asked her for a blowjob. I told her that she'd been complaining about her tough day at work and seemed worn out so I thought it was too much to ask. She said "giving you a blowjob would have been just what I needed to get my mind off a tough day at work and feel good about myself".
> 
> ...


I am truly happy for you, that is awesome. My wife would never have that reaction in a million years. If my wife has a bad day at work, you can forget about sex, possibly for the rest of the week.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

podiumboy said:


> I am truly happy for you, that is awesome. My wife would never have that reaction in a million years. If my wife has a bad day at work, you can forget about sex, possibly for the rest of the week.


You might be surprised. For the first 20 years of our marriage, I never would have imagined that my wife would ever have that reaction either. 

Missed a LOT of blowjobs. (the above story was well after our "sexual awakening", I'm not implying that your wife might react this way now). 

What would you do if you got home from a tough day at work and your wife said she was really horny and desperately wanted you to go down on her?

Why is it not possible she would feel the same way you would?


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## megamuppet (Feb 13, 2017)

My issue is from the other perspective. My husband and I are late 40s. Been together 4 years, married for 18 months. We both feel this is the best relationship we have ever been in, soulmates, made for each other etc.

When we me we had both just left loveless sexless relationships. Mine after 21 years and two kids, no sex for 4 years - him a five year relationship, no kids, no sex for three years. When we got together we agreed that sex was very important, but not everything. If we had problems we would communicate any issues because we want this to work.

In the first year we had sex almost every day. Different kinds / positions / places. It was amazing. We got engaged and it went to 5 times a week. As yhe wedding got nearer 3 times a week. Now after 18 months its twice a month. 

I went on a rant about it yesterday and I feel awful. I fancy my husband like mad. I still want sex everyday. I always used to try and initiate it but being rejected most days has had an effect on my confidence now. I feel like a sex pest and that I am putting pressure on him that he doesn't want or deserve. 

I miss my sex life too. I don't even get duty sex 

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I agree that she's got way too much on her plate. 

But it really could be temporary..... eventually school will finish and the kids will get older.

Many women, myself included, prefer to work and not be completely finamcially dependent.

Your weight gain probably isn't the only reason for the dwindling sex, but it and the overall lack of effort to woo doesn't help.

It's good you see chores as your shared responsibility because you live there..... that's how I see it. I hate when people ask if my hb "helps". Um no, he does chores because he lives here and he's a grown ass man, and they need to be done.

I think you should be patient and work on yourself, and make a little more effort to woo. Not for immediate sex, but for the connection that will continue to be there once some of the stresses go away. 

Your wife shows every indication that this will improve as the stresses in her life improve, and you uppimg your game will be extra frosting.

I don't think you need a bunch of female friends..... one could argue that isn't appropriate for a married man, but the knowledge that women are looking is a good thing.

Be careful not to make the assumption that all of these female friends somehow turned her on.....it may have just made her feel like she had to put out. That's doesn't sound like what you want.


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## shrah25 (Mar 22, 2017)

podiumboy said:


> Honestly, I would rather focus on my wife's sexual satisfaction than my own. I feel like when the kids were babies we got into some really bad sexual habits (the quickies, but that was her idea). I really wish she'd let me. She doesn't let me even touch her vagina, really. I think that her sexuality is buried deep in her identity. Being a mother, a full time student and having a part time job I think has really taken over and smothered her sexuality altogether. I truly do not believe she masturbates. I would be happy if she did, and encourage it. But she seriously doesn't seem likes she even thinks about such things. I'm not being naive; like I said, it is my wish that she did masturbate, showing some signs of life down there. Maybe she does, but she denies it.
> 
> I don't think she sees any problem. I'm getting sex on a pretty regular basis. To be honest, she seems genuinely happy to provide a hole for me to put my penis into. I am not some selfish husband who doesn't help out with the kids or clean the house. I do the dishes, I vacuum, I do laundry, I mow the yard, check the tires and oil in her car, etc, etc, etc. I'm happy to help her in any way I can. I don't think she would care about seeing a sex counselor, because in her mind I really don't think she thinks there is anything wrong with our sex life. Sometimes I bring up that she didn't seem like she was enjoying herself, and she replies "OMG, what do you want me to do? I'm not some porn star!"
> 
> ...


Hi @podiumboy

Often couples get into a routine with a relationship after kids and marriage and hence, they seem to think that nothing is wrong. 
The truth is that the standards have been lowered massively. If a business ran like this with this approach, it will die a slow death and crumble eventually. 

Without sounding harsh, your response has a lot of excuses and justifications and with that intent, then it's going to stay where it is. I have no doubt that you are a great husband but doing those things around the house doesn't suddenly mean that you end up meeting all her needs. 

You must take the bull by the horns and come up with some fun, exciting, spontaneous ways to raise the bar. Not just sexually but in all areas of life. One of the other posts has some really good ideas that you can use as a starting point. 
Then and only then will you start to notice progress with your wife and overcome the 'routine'.

Hope that makes sense.

Thanks
Sri


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## manwithnoname (Feb 3, 2017)

ZDog377 said:


> My situation isn't exactly like yours, but the sex aspect is. Things were great when we were dating, went downhill after the first kid and have just about tapered off after the second. She just dropped the bomb on me one day that she's never desired sex. She only did it because she wanted kids. She feels it has no purpose now. Like you, it has become duty sex. She does it so I can get off but there is *no passion behind it anymore.* It's "get hard and get done". I've tried explaining that it's not about the getting off but about that connection/intimacy.


If there was passion behind it in the past, then her statement about never having desire is false. She would have just gone through the motions. Something else behind it.


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

I hope the passion comes back. But in the meantime, continue to be very thankful that you have a wife who wants to meet your needs, even when she's not feeling it herself. This is a byproduct of her strong love for you. There are a million stories where a low-libido spouse can't even be bothered to show up. 

Do you have the ability to take a childless vacation when the semester ends? Somewhere warm and tropical that makes the juices start flowing?


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

BioFury said:


> There's nothing wrong with communicating your desires to your wife. Ask her for what you want. You guys have a partnership, she takes care of you, you take care of her. Together, you then take care of your kids. Your needs are just as important as hers, and more important than your children's.
> 
> Why is she working, going to college, and raising kids all at once? She needs to thin her responsibilities list. She should be able to keep you at the top of her list of priorities. When your spouse starts getting knocked down to the 3rd, 4th, or 5th place on the list, that's when other responsibilities need to be eliminated.
> 
> You and your wife are the foundation of your family. If the foundation suffers, so will everything built upon it.


I liked this post because it hits the nail on the head. However, I am wondering if the OP has his wife on the top of the list before work, hobbies, etc? Sometimes women are so overwhelmed because they are not getting enough help, the man works and that is about it.


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

aine said:


> I liked this post because it hits the nail on the head. However, I am wondering if the OP has his wife on the top of the list before work, hobbies, etc? Sometimes women are so overwhelmed because they are not getting enough help, the man works and that is about it.


I really like to think my wife is at the top of my list, honestly. There is nothing I wouldn't do for her at the drop of a hat, and I try to anticipate her needs and what is going to stress her out, and attempt to relieve that. While I love my kids and love being a father, I have never thrown my whole identity into being a parent like she has. I must say, it probably wasn't always this way. My job is extremely demanding of me at times, and especially when the kids were babies, I found it very hard to juggle it all. I sort of feel like I let her down during this time, and that was when things started to go south I think. Now I have my priorities straight, and have no problem telling my boss to **** off, I'm busy with my family. I was afraid of losing my job if I didn't kiss my boss and clients asses constantly. As far as hobbies, I don't really have any. I have a fairly active social life, but I'm not out until 2am closing down the bars on weekends. I usually limit it to one social affair every-other weekend. I used to play guitar in a band, and I'd like to get back to that someday, but right now that can't work. 

I would like to take her on a vacation without the kids. Unfortunately, we just took a family vacation to Disney World (OMG that was expensive!!!), and have to travel pretty far for a family wedding this summer, so that kind of takes care of our vacation budget for the year. I'm going to see about some kind of weekend getaway or something, though. We need it, not just to have sex.


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## C3156 (Jun 13, 2012)

Been there, done that except that we only had sex once a month vice once or twice a week. Many guys would give their left nut to be in your position. Your wife understands that sex is important to you and is trying to make sure that she meets your needs.

I think a lot of guys get hung up on sex. We view sex with our SO as a measure of how close we are. Why is that, because men are driven by action and sex is an action that we can relate to intimacy. But most men forget (or don't realize) that there is more to intimacy than just sex, there is an emotional part that is far more important to a lot of women.

This is where this quote hits the nail on the head:


shrah25 said:


> Reason being is that, every woman has their own levels of sexual activity and how they like the act of sex to be conducted. Some are more open and 'expressive' and some really like their partner to be a bit of a detective to some extent and really understand what it takes to turn her on. Based on my experience working with women, this is what it sounds like with your wife. But if she continues to give, give, give without getting her needs met, then that's where the resentment builds. She loves you and wants to help you but probably doesn't want to create drama by expressing her needs. This is where you come into play...


Your wife makes the effort to meet your intimacy needs, you should reciprocate. Read the book, "The Five Love Languages" It is an easy read and really gives an easy way to learn about yourself and your wife. You all can read it together. I bet as you fill her love tank, as the book puts it, you will find that not only will she have sex with you, she will start to enjoy it more. Meet her needs too.

I have learned that marriage involves effort on both parties, don't take it for granted. I wasted a good marriage by not putting in the time, you have the opportunity to correct the situation and make yours better. Your wife sounds like a great woman, put in the effort to learn about her needs and reap the rewards. This is not a quick process and really is a lifestyle change, but is worth it in the end.


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

Buddy400 said:


> You might be surprised. For the first 20 years of our marriage, I never would have imagined that my wife would ever have that reaction either.
> 
> Missed a LOT of blowjobs. (the above story was well after our "sexual awakening", I'm not implying that your wife might react this way now).
> 
> ...


If my wife asked me to go down on her, I would drop literally everything and anything to do it. I wouldn't care how tired I was, how busy I was, or if I had just broken my leg... I'd do that first. I seriously don't think my wife EVER considers oral sex as something that people actually do outside of porn. Her attitude seems to be "do people STILL do that?", like some kind of played out dance craze that was popular 10 years ago. We were hanging out with her sister and her husband recently, and her sister is a very openly sexual person (2nd husband, no longer married to the father of her kids... she used to be a major prude). She was joking about how her husband rarely reciprocates oral sex, and said to my wife "does he do that too?", in reference to me. My wife just kind of embarrassingly dodged the question, and I said "I give it as much as I get it", which was not a lie, and seemed to shut everybody up and change the subject. 

We have a date night coming up this weekend. Vaginal sex is not an option for about a week, following my wife's recent trip to the dermatologist... no further need to comment on that, nothing serious. Since sex is off the table, part of me thinks it might be a good time to try to have a calm conversation about our sex life... I'd have to get her a little bit drunk first. But on the other hand, she might get defensive like she usually does, and I would really rather not spend our date night arguing about sex. I'm going to try to talk about it, though. There are some married men that still get blowjobs when their wife is on her period... I used to get this treatment as well. It seems selfish, but I didn't used to worry about it at all. Maybe she resented it secretly? She didn't seem to. Her attitude now on action during her period seems to be "OMG, you can wait a few more days to have sex, go jerk off." 

I think I've really been trained to think of sex as something negative for my wife. Like last year on her 30th birthday, we went all out. Kids at grandparents, hotel room, nice dinner, went to a concert she likes. After we got back to the hotel, she went to the restroom, and I just went to sleep. She seemed surprised that I went to sleep instead of having kidless hotel sex. It was then that I realized, I just subconsciously assumed that since it was HER birthday instead of mine, that we wouldn't be having sex. I was trying to do something nice for her, by letting her sleep for an entire night with no chance of the kids waking her up, and no pestering by me to let me use her vagina to masturbate with. It never once occurred to me that she might want to have sex on her birthday, in a hotel, with the kids gone, after a success romantic date... that was kind of a wake up call for me. It never occurred to me that she might have been in the mood.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> You might be surprised. For the first 20 years of our marriage, I never would have imagined that my wife would ever have that reaction either.
> 
> Missed a LOT of blowjobs. (the above story was well after our "sexual awakening", I'm not implying that your wife might react this way now).
> 
> ...


Because she's googling on how to overcome sexual aversion.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

I think all I can add, as someone with 3 young kids and probably relating to much of what you are dealing with, is just open up to your W about what is bothering you and see where the cards fall. Odds are your W is a) feeling "touched" out by the kids, b) loss of desire (whether due to hormone swings, body images) c) generally views it as less of a priority in your relationship then you do and d) just views it as a chore to check off her list.

I think what she needs to understand (and maybe through communicating to her it will help), there has to be a point where you both have to put your marriage first again. Constantly putting it on the back burner, waiting for "the kids to get older so things are easier" which seems to be an easy fall back excuse, soon enough you will find yourself with someone you are no longer emotionally connected to.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

megamuppet said:


> In the first year we had sex almost every day. Different kinds / positions / places. It was amazing. We got engaged and it went to 5 times a week. As yhe wedding got nearer 3 times a week. Now after 18 months its twice a month.
> 
> I went on a rant about it yesterday and I feel awful.


Do not feel bad about the rant. Entirely Justified. Talk again today.

Honey, I am here for you. I want to take this journey together. If you have a medical issue, let's go to the doctor and get it fixed. if I am doing something that bothers you, let's go to counselling and fix it. If I am lousy in bed, let's go to a sex therapist and learn how to please each other. But if you think I am going to stay in a sexless marriage again, you are crazy. So what can we do to address this? Because if you won't work with me on this, then this is n't the marriage I want and need. And I am too old to waste alot of time hoping you'll eventually change your mind.
@podiumboy: Tell your wife you understand. Tell her she has small kids underfoot and is touched out. Tell her you are willing to meet her halfway. But not get cut off entirely. Because you can't put your sex life on hold for 3 or 4 or 5 years (much 18 or 20) and think the relationship won't take a hit. It will. That doesn't make you immature or unreasonable. That makes you human. She doesn't really want to be married to a wimpy doormat, does she? If not, then she needs to realize you are not simply going to roll over and accept that she gets things 100% her way on this. Yes, it is her body. But if she doesn't want to share it with you, then she doesn't really want to be married to you.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

This too shall pass. Seriously. She's busy, she's tired, she's doing the best she can to make you happy and your not. She's exhausted. Right now sex isn't a priority to her. People have different needs. She knows it's important to you, so she does it. She sounds amazing to me. 
When someone is doing the best they can during a hard time and it's met with un-appreciation or "not good enough", it will never end good. She will become resentful. 
My advice... let it go. She's a wife, mother, student, and worker that's insane. Love her, appreciate her, support her and get through this little bump in your marriage stronger. If you push her too much it will cause resentment and your relationship will break.
Many men would kill to have a wife like yours.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

I often read posts on here about men saying... I've taken my wife for granted for years. I haven't treated her how I should of for years blah blah blah. Now my wife has told me she isn't in love with me anymore and wants a divorce or a separation. Don't be this person in 15 years. 

All I'm saying is these stories are powerful. Hind sight is 20-20 I guess. All I'm saying is right now... she's doing awesome. She's doing the best she can. She's not perfect. Support her, treat her amazingly, appreciate what she does, and you guys will eventually get over this bump and she will love you for supporting her through it.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

katiecrna said:


> *This too shall pass*. Seriously. She's busy, she's tired, she's doing the best she can to make you happy and your not. She's exhausted. Right now sex isn't a priority to her. People have different needs. She knows it's important to you, so she does it. She sounds amazing to me.
> When someone is doing the best they can during a hard time and it's met with un-appreciation or "not good enough", it will never end good. She will become resentful.
> My advice... let it go. She's a wife, mother, student, and worker that's insane. Love her, appreciate her, support her and get through this little bump in your marriage stronger. If you push her too much it will cause resentment and your relationship will break.
> Many men would kill to have a wife like yours.


The problem with the "this too shall pass" idea, at what point do you sound the alarm when it doesn't. As I mentioned in my post, there is a point, maybe a breaking point, where it does more harm than good. There has to be some sort of balance between being understanding (this too shall pass) and putting your relationship back at the front. Waiting for things to pass can very easily lead to complacency.


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## FORTIFIEDORANGE (Mar 27, 2017)

my situation is very similiar. i've shared. my latest update is that i discovered my wife has never had a passionate sex life, well that's what she now tells me which contradicts what she told me long ago about her past, and we did have some passion here and there but it's been muted by the latest duty sex refusal of affection spout that i can hardly remember it. she reminded mof the times, my depressed self stopped remembering the good times. we got kids very similiar to podium etc..

so the one thing i idscovered is she can only have orgasms by herself, never with a partner she now admits, she did use her clit vibrator once with me and she didnt feel at ease around me with it. very clammed about it. now i am thinking the issue is past abuse long ago somewhere in her history. i feel so bad about this for her it's bother me now even more knowing that it isn't me and that some monster hurt her in hte past.

so in my rage (which i never show anger, i am very non confrontational and peace maker) i mutilated her boy friend in front of her and threw him on the ground, all his wires adn electrical pieces thrown everywhere and ripped it with my bare hands. made me feel like a man again and she said 'oh you jealous of it' 'umm no, you are cheating on me with it, if we used it togehter like a tool like we use lube, like we use lingerie, etc.. i 'd be cool with it, if i was a 12 year old boy beating off to porn all day and gave oyu no attention you'd do the same'..

again i've made it 100% crystal clear i want her to use a vibrator in bed if that's what it takes. her anatomy is harder to please sexually is what she tells me, i think it's am ental block though now. her vagina looks beautiful and amazing and no different than anythign else i've seen its not like she has some missing clit or somehting lol.

i've even tried sneakign a vibrator in during sex, we tried the little **** ring things but they are well too tight and little to fit, she got me a bigger one (not bragging just providng for fact) she doesnt get pain in sex but the **** rign things didnt work. we did try that at one time but those things just suck.

i dont think she thinks about me when masturbating, or anything for that matter ,she has such a numb intimacy that she thinks of nothing, i have had trouble believing htat is true, i always felt there was some other guy or some past man that she is struggling to get over. 

i can't think of a past girl friend that could ever even come to even entering my heart, so not sure how someone could bem arried to someone and have soemone from the past. she broke up with all her b/fs in the past, so it's not like she was left or cheated on, no one has ever cheatedo n her. if you saw my wife, you'd see why she has never had an issue with a man not wanting her. 

in my discover, i actually found out i am her ultimate alpha male, i am not the beta i thoguht it was, i am not her back up plan, it's just she is affraid to open up to anyone and i've come closests to opening her up. 

her last b/f was scared of her and kept leaving her over insecurity i figured out, it had nothing to do with him finding someone btter than her. she has a super model body, not making that up, litereally the sexiest woman alive in my eyes and would probably fit into modeling or acting based on her looks. 

now maybe she fantasizes about men she's never had as she is too affraid and i am not as good as she could have gotten, that is a possibility but doesn't everyone fantasize about a super model, porn star, or actor/actress so that is normal, i only fantasize abut my wife and seldom use porn. only use porn when i am beyond frustarted and it's a numb beat off session where i just release the pain and stress without the joy of a true orgasm ,i fear this is theo nly orgasms she has ever had in her life.


she claims she is hard to please sexually, i believe her and i beleive she has never been pleased by a man before. it makes sense. my friends who know her who i have intimate communication with all agree with this theory ihave as i've now opened up to close friends and family that ican talk about this stuff with. 

when i was 16 i had a g/f who all we'd do is oral, she was religious and wanted to save the piv for marriage, i had 2 years of this experience, every girl is different but my tongue muscles never tire and i know more about a clitoris and vulva than a mechanic knows a car.
i've had a lot of sexual experience, she doesnt know all of this history i am not that guy who shares my past unless pushed to (other girls pusehd for it). i say this for other men, it's not you, it truly isn't you at least in the bedroom ,might be you other areas but the sex skills are probably the problem for some but i doubt most men in htis day and age who have had experience are the problem.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> Because she's googling on how to overcome sexual aversion.


Maybe.

It depends on whether she's actually repulsed by the idea of having sex or just concerned about where her libido went.

I'm not trying to claim that all (or most) women are secretly driven by the need to sexually please their husband.

But I am suggesting that it's a lot more than most guys (especially nice guys) would believe.

In fact, that may be a major difference between guys who get plenty of sex and those that don't; the guys getting sex assume that their partner wants to please them.

And yes, I am saying that women who would do this are largely unaware that this is something that would give them great satisfaction.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

Podiumboy - You are telling us that having your wife enjoy and actively participate in your sexual activity together is important to you and that you are not satisfied or happy with your sexual life right now because that is not happening. Your wife on the other hand thinks things are fine - and that because she is willing to provide her body a couple times a week so you can get off - you should be fine too. 

Clearly there seems to be a disconnect between your view of things and her view. It sounds like you have talked to her about your problem with your sex life. Since she is googling it it sounds like she may even have a sense of the disconnect - yet nothing is happening to resolve the problem - right?? Which brings you here. How can you fix this problem? You can't - at least not without her help!!

The questions in my mind is WHY is your wife not doing anything to resolve an issue in your marriage that is important to you and is causing you to be unsatisfied or unhappy in your marriage? Have you really successfully communicated the issue to her so that she understands why you feel the way you do - why this affects you - why you are unhappy with the status quo? Does she not believe you when you say this is important to you? Does she not care that it is important to you? Does she care but doesn't know how to fix it? Or is it simply a matter of not having the energy to fix it? The real problem for you is that you can not fix this issue without her helping you fix it AND (this is important) she seems to not be willing to do anything to help you fix this issue at this time. She won't even talk to you about it so that you can figure out why she won't help you fix it! Or is she talking to you and you just are not hearing her? 

I think it is going to take some professional help for the two of you to fix this issue. Your wife's unwillingness to even discuss this issue with you seems more troubling to me than what is not happening in your bedroom. 

Since she won't discuss the sexual issue with you - you might consider changing the discussion from why she is only willing to give you duty sex - to why she won't talk to you or work on an issue that is making you unsatisfied or unhappy in your marriage. 

Find a good counselor to help you with this discussion!


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## captain.78 (Apr 5, 2017)

podiumboy said:


> Might as well share mine. Let me start by saying I really do love my wife, and have NO DESIRE to ever cheat on her or leave her. We've been married 9 years, together 11, and have 2 young kids. We actually have a great relationship, except where sex is concerned.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Well first I want to explain that I'm not a Dr or any type of counselor. I'm only replying due to my own experience with this and adding a few suggestions. My wife and I have been married 3yrs together 6. My second her first marriage. I have kids from previous marriage and she has none. 

I also noticed the exact same instance you shared with your sex life. My advice is to seek some help. My situation our marital sex issues were both our issues. My wife's childhood abusive past caught up to he. When we argued, there were certain triggers that would surface those memories. Tone of voice, body language, small things that only recognized only if you knew to look for them. This created issues for her to trust me completely. 

Secondly stop pressuring, I know it's hard! I did it also. So instead, like the web search bar; your wife's brain has 40 tabs open at the top at a time. Your job as her husband is to help relieve some pressure and help take one of the tabs off. Rather its kids, school, housework find something to remove from her to do list. Not saying your not. But as I could you can improve.

Talk to her or a counselor about a sexual reprieve. Take some time no sex, no masturbation. Decide on how long, you wife gets to decide that. She and only she can break the reprieve early without pressure. Could be up to a 60 day reprieve. Gives the body, mind, marriage time to reset sexually. Takes pressure off and most of the time the wife breaks the reprieve off early cause that pressure is not there and they can breathe. Don't do this on your own, talk about it together and get a little help. I did!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Peacekeeper (Apr 3, 2017)

Buddy400 said:


> You might be surprised. For the first 20 years of our marriage, I never would have imagined that my wife would ever have that reaction either.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You've got nothing to lose, OP. My wife rarely gives blowjobs these days. But one night about two weeks ago we were lying in bed about to get busy, and I went ahead and asked for one. She didn't say a word, and slid on down and sucked me like a champ. I couldn't believe it!!! Lol. She didn't ***** and moan about it, just went to work. I let her go for about 5-10min before I got too far...but it was bliss. 

Funny cause I got emboldened to ask her for a blowjob from something I read here on TAM. Basically someone was recommending to "just ask!". I am new to the forums and my story is similar to yours. Good luck!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

podiumboy said:


> I think I've really been trained to think of sex as something negative for my wife. Like last year on her 30th birthday, we went all out. Kids at grandparents, hotel room, nice dinner, went to a concert she likes. After we got back to the hotel, she went to the restroom, and I just went to sleep. She seemed surprised that I went to sleep instead of having kidless hotel sex. It was then that I realized, I just subconsciously assumed that since it was HER birthday instead of mine, that we wouldn't be having sex. I was trying to do something nice for her, by letting her sleep for an entire night with no chance of the kids waking her up, and no pestering by me to let me use her vagina to masturbate with. It never once occurred to me that she might want to have sex on her birthday, in a hotel, with the kids gone, after a success romantic date... that was kind of a wake up call for me. It never occurred to me that she might have been in the mood.


Us understanding, good guys who care about our wives often do this to ourselves.

You have to be vulnerable. Sure, letting her know how much you want something gives her power to hurt you by not giving it to you. But never asking for what you want insures that you'll never get it. 

That the night at the hotel probably had the perverse effect of making her think that having sex with you wasn't that important to you. Why should she put herself out (or go to the effort of getting herself in the mood) when it's not that important to you?

Do not over-talk this. Let her know how important sex is to you. Tell her that it's important to you to feel that having sex with you is something that she actually wants. Express your willingness to do whatever you can to make it good for her as well. Tell her that you understand the pressure she's under and offer to do whatever you can to make life easier for her. But tell her that you're afraid that if things continue as they are that you'll stop initiating, your sex life will whither, you'll lose your emotional connection and the marriage will be damaged. Then, if things fail to improve, a follow-up to make sure she understands how serious this is to you. 

The focus should be on your concern for the marriage, not lack of sex. You're not trying to talk her into changing, you're just telling her how you see things. Then, it'll be up to her to put in the effort if she cares to.

Do all the things that are recommended here on TAM to improve yourself. 

All of this assumes that she loves you and is happy being married to you.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

megamuppet said:


> When we me we had both just left loveless sexless relationships. Mine after 21 years and two kids, no sex for 4 years - him a five year relationship, no kids, no sex for three years. When we got together we agreed that sex was very important, but not everything. If we had problems we would communicate any issues because we want this to work.
> ......
> 
> I miss my sex life too. I don't even get duty sex


Sounds like you did everything right to try to prevent this. It's a sober reminder that a good long-term marriage also requires some good luck no matter how careful we try to be when choosing a spouse.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

mary35 said:


> The questions in my mind is WHY is your wife not doing anything to resolve an issue in your marriage that is important to you and is causing you to be unsatisfied or unhappy in your marriage? Have you really successfully communicated the issue to her so that she understands why you feel the way you do - why this affects you - why you are unhappy with the status quo? Does she not believe you when you say this is important to you? Does she not care that it is important to you? Does she care but doesn't know how to fix it? Or is it simply a matter of not having the energy to fix it? The real problem for you is that you can not fix this issue without her helping you fix it AND (this is important) she seems to not be willing to do anything to help you fix this issue at this time. She won't even talk to you about it so that you can figure out why she won't help you fix it! Or is she talking to you and you just are not hearing her?


First, my wife loves me is very happily married.

So, I had to ask myself the same question "Since my wife loves me and knows that this is important to me, why isn't she doing anything about it?"

The answer turned out to be that she really didn't understand just how important it was to me. It's difficult for me to see how she couldn't have known. If the reverse was the case, there's no way I wouldn't have known and done something about it. So, I assumed that she just didn't care, didn't love me as much as she claimed or really hated doing it".

When I finally got through to her, she swears she had no idea. She thought it was just a little thing, etc.

I made the mistake of thinking she was just like me; that she would be as aware of my needs as I was of hers.

I turned out that I just needed to stop being a weenie, allow myself to be vulnerable enough to make my needs clear and she was more than happy to give me what I wanted. In fact, giving me what I wanted made her happy. It inspired me to give her even more of what she needed and it's been an upward spiral ever since.

I'm not claiming that this works every time (or even most of the time). But if it does, you're going to feel pretty stupid not trying it earlier.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

FORTIFIEDORANGE said:


> "and i know more about a clitoris and vulva than a mechanic knows a car."


I liked that quote.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

podiumboy said:


> I think I've really been trained to think of sex as something negative for my wife. Like last year on her 30th birthday, we went all out. Kids at grandparents, hotel room, nice dinner, went to a concert she likes. After we got back to the hotel, she went to the restroom, and I just went to sleep. She seemed surprised that I went to sleep instead of having kidless hotel sex. It was then that I realized, I just subconsciously assumed that since it was HER birthday instead of mine, that we wouldn't be having sex. I was trying to do something nice for her, by letting her sleep for an entire night with no chance of the kids waking her up, and no pestering by me to let me use her vagina to masturbate with. It never once occurred to me that she might want to have sex on her birthday, in a hotel, with the kids gone, after a success romantic date... that was kind of a wake up call for me. It never occurred to me that she might have been in the mood.


Again you are assuming that YOU are that problem. She knew what was going to happen, the arrangements for the kids, the hotel room. If she wasn't in the mood she would have told you. Weren't you mad that she didn't wake you up? My wife tried to play that game to..."well you were sleeping and I didn't want to wake you up". It's just still another excuse not to have sex. Let me guess, she wasn't the least bit upset that no sex happened that night. You both are contributing to the problem, but since sex is so infrequent that you are now conditioned to think nothing is happening, it's become a real problem she is to blame for. She has to understand that being a refuser isn't ok. 

It's all territory I'm way to familiar with.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

jb02157 said:


> AMy wife tried to play that game to..."well you were sleeping and I didn't want to wake you up". It's just still another excuse not to have sex.


lol, I was literally having the same conversation about this exact topic a few days ago.

Really, a great point another member here made a while back as they were looking at their sex life and why it had become so infrequent with their H, they realized that when it came to sex, she found she got into the habit of always looking for reason why to have sex like it needed justification. This made it much easier to just go with any excuse possible. She changed her mindset, and instead took the POV of "why shouldn't we have sex", and many of those excuses went away.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

podiumboy said:


> Agreed. I don't vacuum, do dishes etc because I want to get laid, I do them because it's my house too, and because I want my wife to feel less stress. But you're right, there is very little I can do about this in the near future. Survival mode... that is perfect.
> 
> I really don't want my wife to have so much on her plate. She didn't decide to go to college until she was 28, with 2 very young kids. I was happy that she finally decided she wanted to do this. Before, she worked in a unfulfilling job at a pharmacy. I try to do as much as a possibly can to ease this poor woman's load.
> 
> I suppose all I can really do is ride this out and hope that things pick up down the road, when she has less on her plate. For now, I really have stopped pestering her for sex, and am just trying to be a good supportive husband instead. We basically only have sex when she initiates. My desire to get laid has been eclipsed by my desire to not be a groveling, pestering, needy little *****. We have a date night this weekend, babysitter lined up, but not for an all-nighter. I'm not going to entertain the idea of sex, but I am going to try to make it a good night for her.


I'm glad to hear you realize that this is way too much for a mom with young kids.

I don't think you should "ride it out." I believe that it's very important in marriage to agree on how the other spends their time and what they commit themselves to, because it does affect the marriage, as you're seeing. If your wife is continuing to work after you've asked her not to for the sake of your family, she's acting independently (doing something without regard to your feelings). You should both agree to what she has committed to doing. I get that she loves her job, but in addition to having young children, and going to school, it is simply too much right now. I think you two need to learn how to work interdependently and make decisions together. 

I'd tell her that the current situation isn't working for you and the family, and that something must give. Either school gets put on hold or the job, and only if she's able to do one or the other while making time for 15 hours a week with you to meet the most important emotional needs in marriage: intimate conversation, affection, recreational companionship, and sex. She's not passionate about sex with you because there is no time to meet the other needs that most women need in order to feel in love with their husbands, and that leads to a stronger desire for sex.

You simply can't squeeze blood from a turnip. There's nothing more she can give here and your marriage, which should be priority number 1, is at the bottom of a very long list for her. Even for moms who devote ALL their time to their young children, husbands can feel like they are no longer priority number 1. For a mom who has other competing interests, she's likely feeling guilt from being away from her kids so much that she can't possibly put you before them right now.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

I don't have time to read this whole thread but really wanted to jump in.

OP, you say you can't get away without the kids because babysitting. You say you just took preschool aged kids to Disney World, who won't remember their trip to Disney world by the way. You and your wife get out without the kids once a month and the kids typically sleep with you.

You are not longer in a romantic relationship. You are now in a parenting team and keep pleasant company with each other. You each routinely take one for the team. You have placed the kids so far up the priority list your marriage is falling apart.

First priority, get those kids out of your bed!

Second, vacations with kids should be low budget and low key until your marriage is fulfilling enough that you each are very satisfied. 

Third, Do not deprioritize sex. It is important. You can have a good marriage with decent sex, but you can't have a good marriage with lousy duty sex and you can't have a great marriage unless you're having great sex. Sex is a priority which means you each do what you need to do in order to enjoy sex. 

Fourth, if you're convincing your wife to cut her work hours and she is resistant, reassign that money to husband and wife adventures. Your kids will be much better off with low key vacations and happy affectionate parents, then uptight stressed out, distant and angry parents.

Lastly, your wife suffered trauma to her lady parts when she gave birth. She had no idea what was going to happen down there. She was ambivalent about her lady bits prior to babies but now she isn't very happy with the 'down there.' I say this because men need to understand it is rarely that they are lousy at it, it is rarely that she doesn't like it, it is almost always because she doesn't like IT, her lady parts, her damaged vagina and perineum. You can help her, if she isn't too squeamish talking about it, but it sounds like she is. So talking about sex is what she first needs to grow comfortable with. If she googled sex aversion she is worried enough that her comfort level might be malleable.

Sum it up, put your marriage first!


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

podiumboy said:


> ....married 9 years, together 11, and have 2 young kids....
> 
> Typical story; great sex while we were dating, honeymoon phase, throughout her first pregnancy, right up until our first was born. Things tapered off a little bit, but I still feel our sex life was as good as it can be with a new baby. Then our 2nd/youngest was born 3.5 years ago. .....Suddenly, *me pestering her for sex* just put me in the same category as the needy children...... I knew she was stressed, I was happy to be getting anything. I just figured this was a phase that would pass.
> 
> ...


It is amazing how much insight you have and yet how little you understand what is happening.

First, to answer the big question.

*Why does she initiate if she doesn't want to do it?* 

Because she loves you, loves being married to you and values you as a husband and father to your children. She knows there is a problem, doesn't feel comfortable talking about it, and yet she is looking up articles on how to try to regain her libido. SHE IS TRYING TO BE ALL SHE CAN BE AND TO BE A GOOD WIFE, but the deck is kind of stacked against her and you aren't helping make it easier.

A minor point. "...gives me a hand job just to make sure I get hard, ..." Whether you believe it or not, that is a form of foreplay! It might not be the edging or fantasy foreplay you want, but it is foreplay.

As a man who was in a Sex Starved Marriage, but got it turned around the following is probably more huge than you understand. *there is no pillow talk. It's just right back to "Tomorrow I have to get up early and get this done and get the kids ready and yada yada yada...".* 

Many (not all) women have as either a primary or secondary love language (Chapman's 5 Love Languages) the love language of "quality time." Quality time is having someone to listen to them talk and share their concerns and experiences with. They are "venting" but asking for empathy, sort like your post, so you should understand. The "yada, yada, yada" when she is trying to have some quality time with you, just screams out that you are probably not giving her the "quality time" she needs to feel loved and cherished.

There are thousands of men out there in truly sex starved marriages that would give their all to have a wife, that gave them sex maybe 3 to 6 times a month, initiated about 1/3rd of the time, made noises (hopefully pleasant) about 1/4 of the time, touches their penis to arouse them (as opposed to being a dead fish, thinking of England) and was a good wife and mother to their children, even if the passion factor wasn't up there. *COUNT YOUR BLESSINGS.*

Now lets get to the deck being stack against her.



> married 9 years


 Ever heard of the 7-year itch? Your marriage is no longer in the early honeymoon phase.



> 2 young kids





> *me pestering her for sex* just put me in the same category as the needy children...... I knew she was stressed,





> *There's no passion, no foreplay, nothing.* The more I brought this up, *the more annoyed she got*.





> *The kids sleep with us most nights*,





> *telling me I'm putting too much pressure on her. *


Again, it is amazing how well you understand so many of the issues and yet.....you don't.

I would suggest that you sit down with your wife outside the bedroom, once the kids are asleep and talk to her. Tell her that you now are beginning to understand that you are now part of the problem in your sexual relations with your wife. Apologize to her for being part of the problem and not making her feel as loved and cherished as she deserves and for being greedy and needy and putting pressure on her.

Tell her that you are committed to change yourself so that you can be a better husband, but you will need her help to reinforce your changes. Tell her that you would like the two of you to figure out some way to get marriage counseling so that you can change yourself and so that the two of you can strengthen your marriage.

I was in a sex starved marriage. You are not. My wife and I needed the help of a Sex Therapist, you just need a good marriage counselor and some time to strengthen your marriage.

You really need to read Chapman's 5 Languages of Love and Glover's No More Mr. Nice Guy.

Good luck.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

Jessica38 said:


> You simply can't squeeze blood from a turnip. There's nothing more she can give here and your marriage, which should be priority number 1, is at the bottom of a very long list for her. Even for moms who devote ALL their time to their young children, husbands can feel like they are no longer priority number 1. For a mom who has other competing interests, she's likely feeling guilt from being away from her kids so much that she can't possibly put you before them right now.


Hmmm...I'm not so sure. If the time is devoted to school is causing her marriage to fail, maybe that should be put on hold. I'm guessing that isn't the cause though. She established that time with her husband and mutually acceptable intimacy with her husband is not a priority and she forces her H to accept it to the extreme that her H believes a normal sex life would be an imposition to her. This is a problem she created and only she can resolve. Again, it's not ok to be a refuser. She's settled in her relationship, she's going to school like she wanted, she's married and is a mom like she wanted...everything is great...for HER. The problem is that she is making life hell for her H. She knows this but doesn't care, it's not her priority. She's not going to change anything unless her H gets frustrated enough that he files.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

To oversimplify: Both genders sometimes take their spouse for granted. What they neglect tends to be different because what their spouse wants from them tends to be different. But the mechanism is the same. One spouse focuses too much on job or kids or charity work while the other keeps asking for conversation or quality time or acts of service or sex, and keep getting refuses (because job or kids or outside activities are more important "for now"). Unhappy spouse is just supposed to do without until denying spouse feels like addressing their need. Then the denying spouse is shocked when 5 or 10 or 15 years later the unhappy spouse files for divorce.

As I say over and over again: single most important thing you can do for your kids is to stay happily married to your kids' other parent. More important that earning more money or what you feed them or helping them with their homework or doing the laundry or keeping the house clean. Because their other parent filing for divorce has a good chance to undo all the good you were trying to do by feeding and clothing and cleaning the kids.

That assumes your spouse is not a narcissistic jerk. If they are, then stop worrying about having sex or conversation or spending time with them and figure out your plan for divorce.


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

katiecrna said:


> This too shall pass. Seriously. She's busy, she's tired, she's doing the best she can to make you happy and your not. She's exhausted. Right now sex isn't a priority to her. People have different needs. She knows it's important to you, so she does it. She sounds amazing to me.
> When someone is doing the best they can during a hard time and it's met with un-appreciation or "not good enough", it will never end good. She will become resentful.
> My advice... let it go. She's a wife, mother, student, and worker that's insane. Love her, appreciate her, support her and get through this little bump in your marriage stronger. If you push her too much it will cause resentment and your relationship will break.
> Many men would kill to have a wife like yours.


Yes, considering her work load, she is doing great. But her work load, and the hard time they are in, is being inflicted upon them by her. She is choosing to work, go to school, and raise children all at once. She's pursuing too much at the same time, which is causing her to lose focus of what's really important. Your spouse should never get knocked down the priority list, your other responsibilities should.

I second the other posters in saying that co-sleeping with your children is a very unhealthy practice. That needs to stop.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Holdingontoit said:


> To oversimplify: Both genders sometimes take their spouse for granted. What they neglect tends to be different because what their spouse wants from them tends to be different. But the mechanism is the same. One spouse focuses too much on job or kids or charity work while the other keeps asking for conversation or quality time or acts of service or sex, and keep getting refuses (because job or kids or outside activities are more important "for now"). Unhappy spouse is just supposed to do without until denying spouse feels like addressing their need. Then the denying spouse is shocked when 5 or 10 or 15 years later the unhappy spouse files for divorce.


The interesting thing here, where it almost becomes a catch 22, it is easiest to take for granted those who provide you the most stability/security. So let's say you have been the rock for your W. Over time she knows she can always count on you. What can happen since she always expect you to be there for her, you become less of a priority (whether or not it is meant to be done in a harmful manner). Combine that with a situation where your priorities now differ from hers, and you are left with some unintended consequences (i.e. at the bottom of t eh food chain). You do everything to be the best spouse, which then leads you to becoming less of a priority lol. This probably goes along with the suggestion you see at times of doing a 180 to hopefully shake your SO out of this pattern. Now of course this is gender neutral, so you can swap roles.


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

jb02157 said:


> Again you are assuming that YOU are that problem. She knew what was going to happen, the arrangements for the kids, the hotel room. If she wasn't in the mood she would have told you. Weren't you mad that she didn't wake you up? My wife tried to play that game to..."well you were sleeping and I didn't want to wake you up". It's just still another excuse not to have sex. Let me guess, she wasn't the least bit upset that no sex happened that night. You both are contributing to the problem, but since sex is so infrequent that you are now conditioned to think nothing is happening, it's become a real problem she is to blame for. She has to understand that being a refuser isn't ok.
> 
> It's all territory I'm way to familiar with.


Well, it actually wasn't that big of a confrontation... we just had sex the next day, which was her actual birthday. I have to say, that was probably the low point of our sex lives, last year. Since then, we've had some really good conversations, and she has been making more of an effort for me, and I have been making more of an effort to satisfy her needs. There have been a couple times in the last few months that we have had what I would call good sex, where she surprised me by getting really into it. I hadn't seen that side of her much in the last couple years. But then the next time we'd have sex, it'd be back to the same old same old. Maybe with some work, it will get better. I just know the one thing I need to do is stop whining about it, just be frank and ask her what she thinks it would take for her to enjoy sex again. Marriage is a lot of work. People always tell you that when you first get married, but you have no idea what that really means until your in the thick of it. 

I'm very grateful that my wife has as much sex with me as she does. Usually she doesn't turn down my initiations, or if she does, she'll usually say "tonight isn't a good night because I have a bunch of homework, could we put it off until tomorrow?" This takes away from the spontaneity of it, but is not something that actually bothers me. I am happy that she is willing to work with me on it. I'd just like to get her a little more involved in our sex life. I know, most of you are now saying "leave the poor woman alone, you horny bastard!" I don't disagree! I really do try to be a good husband, because I want to be, because she deserves it. And I really do think that she loves me equally, and she works really hard to be a great wife. It has been very beneficial for me to have these conversations with you people, and to read all your comments. I really don't have anybody in my life I can have a constructive conversation about this. As previously stated, I can't really talk to any of my friends about it. Perhaps I should've come to this site a year ago, would've saved us a lot of arguments.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

podiumboy said:


> I just know the one thing I need to do is stop whining about it, just be frank and ask her what she thinks it would take for her to enjoy sex again.


That's a really good start.


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

Anon Pink said:


> I don't have time to read this whole thread but really wanted to jump in.
> 
> OP, you say you can't get away without the kids because babysitting. You say you just took preschool aged kids to Disney World, who won't remember their trip to Disney world by the way. You and your wife get out without the kids once a month and the kids typically sleep with you.
> 
> ...


I would say we have a date night once a month. I wouldn't say we're not romantic, but agree that it sometimes feels more like a roommate situation. We've both acknowledged this, and agree this is not what we want. We try to kiss each other passionately everyday, not just the peck on the lips in the morning before I head to work. After the kids go to bed, we watch TV together and talk about our lives. We laugh, we're playful with each other, we're generally on each other's side and we don't fight that often, but often enough to show that we care. 

I have actually been putting my foot down about the kids getting out of our bed, and she agreed. Last night they slept in their own rooms all night long, and it was GLORIOUS! I slept all night, and didn't get kicked in the balls multiple times by my 5 year old, whose feet are a perfect ball-kicking level. We actually can't have sex for about another week, due to my wife's recent visit to the dermatologist (like I said before, nothing major at all), but it was nice to just lay there and talk. Hopefully we can stick to this, I told her I don't think it's good for our marriage to share the bed with our kids, and she agreed.

As far as romantic vacations, we are going to be going to a (currently unknown at this point) caribbean island resort next January. A company that I do a lot of business with as a customer send about 2,000 people per year on this trip. From what I understand transportation, food/drinks and accommodations are free, and we're just in charge of getting to the airport. My friend went on the same trip for the same company this past winter, and he said there was no catch. No sales pitches, no mandatory meetings, no sitting around in focus groups talking about work... he said it was basically just he and his wife, drinking, eating, being lazy and having sex all week. Which is exactly what we need, but unfortunately it's not for another 9 months. We'll make it, though!


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

podiumboy said:


> I just know the one thing I need to do is stop whining about it, just be frank and ask her what she thinks it would take for her to enjoy sex again.


Yes, be direct. Tell her what you need, and ask her what she needs. Man up and stop beating around the bush.



podiumboy said:


> I know, most of you are now saying "leave the poor woman alone, you horny bastard!" I don't disagree! I really do try to be a good husband, because I want to be, because she deserves it.


Dude, stop thinking of your desires as not being important. Allowing your wife to take on demanding, unnecessary responsibilities at the expense of your marriage is not being a good husband. If your own needs aren't being met properly, that cripples your ability to meet the needs of others, and fulfill your responsibilities.

A good husband makes sure that his own needs are met by his wife, and that his wife's needs are being properly met by him. This ensures that your relationship and marriage remain strong. Which allows you to properly take care of your children, and the needs of the household in general.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

BioFury said:


> Yes, be direct. Tell her what you need, and ask her what she needs. Man up and stop beating around the bush.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This!


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

BioFury said:


> Yes, be direct. Tell her what you need, and ask her what she needs. Man up and stop beating around the bush.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's all well and good, but my wife seriously believes everything is fine with our sex life. When I voice my doubts, she just brushes it off, saying that I watch too much porn and expect her to act like a porn star. Now I admit I watch my fair share of porn, but I know that porn sex and real sex are very different things. 

Who knows? Maybe she'll never get back her sex drive. Maybe it's just me? Maybe she'll meet somebody else who lights her fire? I don't know, there's absolutely no way to predict that. But I do know that at this point, our sex life truly is as good as it possibly can be. She cannot be seduced... at least not by me. Giving me a blowjob won't make her feel better about herself after a bad day. I don't buy it that she doesn't love me because she doesn't share her body with me completely. She actually shows me she loves me in many other ways, tells me every single day, and I to her. I think part of it is she's overwhelmed, and I think part of it is she has grown to associate sex with negative feelings somehow. Like every mistake I've made gets lumped into this giant mass that is sitting on top of her sex drive or something.

Here's the thing; about 12-18 months ago, somewhere in there, my wife said she wanted counseling. I dismissed it. She had a friend that was in marriage counseling, and I just thought she was being emotional and wanted to go to counseling because her friend was. Like my wife was almost jealous of her friend for going. I assumed a MC was just a scam artist, telling the woman what she wanted to hear, to validate her feelings, and keep her coming back for more appointments so that the MC can get more $$$$$. The husbands of these women, desperate to make their woman happy so they can get laid, keep forking over money to these guys to keep their wives happy. A very ignorant and narrow minded view, I must admit, but that's what my cynical mind thought at the time. But now that I have done my research, I think maybe we should go. I don't think it'd hurt us at all. I've asked her if she still feels we should go to counseling, 12-18 months later, and she claims that we were just going through a rough spot, and that she thinks we have come out of it on our own just fine. I agree that our relationship is much better than it was; I have certainly made some positive changes in myself, and I can tell that she can see and appreciate that. But I feel like if I suggest counseling now, she'll get pissed because 1. I wasn't willing to go when she brought it up, and 2. because I just want to go to a counselor to talk about something so insignificant as sex. 

You people have brought up an interesting point that I really hadn't considered. You say that I have put her needs ahead of my own... and it's true. It's almost like my needs, desires, etc are irrelevant to me. After a particularly bad blowup about a year ago, I really started to listen to what she was saying. I worked very hard to try and change the things about myself that she was unhappy with. I busted my ass trying to meet her needs, going the extra mile to prove to her that things were going to be different. I guess after a year, she feels satisfied with the changes I've made, she tells me time and time again. So now she really doesn't want MC, why? Because I'm meeting her needs. Meanwhile, she's not really meeting mine entirely, and now I'm the one thinking that maybe some intervention might be nice. Funny how that works, isn't it? 

The thing I keep coming back to is that, for now, I need to just accept her as she is and my marriage as it is. It's more than just "oh I wish my wife would give me a BJ, cause BJ's are awesome!". It's just a strong desire to have a mutually satisfactory sex life with my wife. It's just not possible right now. And maybe it will never be possible again. But for now, while she's in school, and our kids are so young, I just can't continue to focus on this negativity. She suffers from sexual aversion, and she's trying to work on it, but she's got a million other priorities. I need to just be happy with that for now. Yes, I know she's supposed to put me first, but guess what? We live in an adult world, and that's not always possible. I try to put my wife first as well, but sometimes **** gets in my way too. Sometimes my career causes me to work 14-16 hour days, and I have nothing left when I get home. Sometimes the kids take precedence, because they're little and needy and can't even get a glass of water by themselves. That's just life, that doesn't mean we don't love each other. 

I am 35 now, she's 31. I have made a decision that I'm going to wait until I turn 40, and revisit this situation. She'll be done with school, in a career, our kids will be in elementary school and more independent (able to get their own water, lol), and hopefully I'll be making more money than I do now, and be a buff, sexy man. If things haven't improved by then naturally, then it will be time to have some serious talks and intervention. That's only 5 years, and it will go by very fast. I'm not putting my life on hold for 5 years. I have a great life. Good job, great wife, great kids... I really can't complain too much. My wife and I talk about trips we want to take, goals we have for the future, and yes we also have plans for things we'd like to do with our kids. Taking our kids to Disney World doesn't mean our marriage has no romance, in response to whoever said that. It just means we love our kids and wanted to do something fun with them. They'll likely not remember it, they're 3 and 5... but I know my wife and I will never forget that trip, and those amazing memories we made together with our kids. They'll only be kids for so long. In 20 years they'll both be out of the house and on their own (hopefully), and I want to enjoy my time with them, not leave them with grandparents all the time or count down the days until they move out so my wife and I can be alone together again. It's about accepting life as it is, instead of what everybody thinks it should be. 

Bottom line; if sex life doesn't improve by the time I'm 40, in 5 years, then it's going to be time to have some hard conversations. I can definitely last that long, it's not like I'm in agony right now, and I don't think she is either. I'm just going to keep trying to improve myself, and our relationship. And if she is unhappy with me and decides to cheat on me or leave me, then as I've said before, that is her problem, not mine, and she was obviously not who I thought she was, and not worth my time.


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

Also, there is one thing somebody said that really sticks out to me, and I'm really going to work on this.

I need to lose weight and get into shape. Not because my wife will suddenly want me more because I'm better looking, I actually don't think that'd make much of a difference. But if other women start thinking I'm attractive, that will basically act as a jump start to her libido. Guaranteed. Right now, while I don't consider myself to be ugly or repulsive, I'm not going to turn any heads either. There is something primal in a woman, where if another woman shows interest in her man, she's going to want to mark her territory, just to show those other *****es up. Right now, she doesn't have to worry about that, nobody wants her man.

It's not the same with men. It doesn't matter how many men show they are attracted to my wife or not... I still think she's beautiful and I'm gonna try to "mark my territory" every chance I get, just because she's hot.


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## m00nman (Nov 29, 2014)

podiumboy said:


> That's all well and good, but my wife seriously believes everything is fine with our sex life. When I voice my doubts, she just brushes it off, saying that I watch too much porn and expect her to act like a porn star. Now I admit I watch my fair share of porn, but I know that porn sex and real sex are very different things.
> 
> Who knows? Maybe she'll never get back her sex drive. Maybe it's just me? Maybe she'll meet somebody else who lights her fire? I don't know, there's absolutely no way to predict that. But I do know that at this point, our sex life truly is as good as it possibly can be. She cannot be seduced... at least not by me. Giving me a blowjob won't make her feel better about herself after a bad day. I don't buy it that she doesn't love me because she doesn't share her body with me completely. She actually shows me she loves me in many other ways, tells me every single day, and I to her. I think part of it is she's overwhelmed, and I think part of it is she has grown to associate sex with negative feelings somehow. Like every mistake I've made gets lumped into this giant mass that is sitting on top of her sex drive or something.
> 
> ...


You've been given some good advice. Take it and take care of things NOW. Don't wait five years until you're forty! Your prostate is going to be the size of a grapefruit by then! Consider that YOUR sex drive is likely to change by then if you don't take care of yourself physically. I know: I'm well past 40 and it's been all downhill since.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

podiumboy said:


> I need to lose weight and get into shape. Not because my wife will suddenly want me more because I'm better looking, I actually don't think that'd make much of a difference. But if other women start thinking I'm attractive, that will basically act as a jump start to her libido. Guaranteed. Right now, while I don't consider myself to be ugly or repulsive, I'm not going to turn any heads either. There is something primal in a woman, where if another woman shows interest in her man, she's going to want to mark her territory, just to show those other *****es up. Right now, she doesn't have to worry about that, nobody wants her man.
> 
> It's not the same with men. It doesn't matter how many men show they are attracted to my wife or not... I still think she's beautiful and I'm gonna try to "mark my territory" every chance I get, just because she's hot.


IDK, I would not rely on getting into shape as a way to supercharge your W's libido. It can't hurt, but I definitely wouldn't rest my hopes on this.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> IDK, I would not rely on getting into shape as a way to supercharge your W's libido. It can't hurt, but I definitely wouldn't rest my hopes on this.


Yeah, I don't think that will make much of a difference. I think that main thing that's happened is she has gotten settled into what she wants, made you accept it and you seem to be fine with the little she offers. That's not ok! That's how we started and that's led to a sexless marriage. You should act on this now and not just accept the little she's willing to give. Soon you won't be having sex at all.


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## Edmund (Apr 1, 2017)

I think your situation can be improved but you have much to be thankful for. The upcoming carribean vacation sounds like a great idea. My advice: 1) continue to exercise even if it is just walking, look your best; the point is NOT to attract other women to make your wife concerned, she does not need that in addition to everything else; the point is you will feel better about yourself 2) you are young yet, these busy years will pass; I and wife are in mid 60s and empty nest; my wife got a masters degree in her 50s, and a subsequent related job that she loved; we are both retired now; we raised an autistic child which takes more time and effort and stress than normal kids; I would never have believed this when I was your age but sex can be wild and awesome and very satisfying at our age. 3) If she is willing, she should try supplements that increase female libido just before date night or when you know you will have time alone... epimedium (horny goat weed) (about 25 mg icariin max for women e.g. 3% icariin of 750 mg tablet) it is safe, not just for men; also L-arginine / pycnogenol (Prelox); maca.


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## crocus (Apr 8, 2016)

Forgive me if this has already been suggested...
And maybe because it's worded as duty sex I can relate...
BUT 
I can relate to the following:
Constant arguments and dismissal of fighting to get ones needs met. Refusal to go to counselling. Feeling unheard.
A year or two later, efforts are made. Wonderful. Awesome. 
It's not that needs are being met. 
It is no longer a requirement. 
One just stops asking. 
One just says things are just fine.
Point received. Not important enough.
Duty sex is....its no longer a relationship because that has expectations that have been clearly denied.
Alright. What now? Stop having expectations and just get on with life. Pretty difficult to share intimacy when it's a battle for basic relationship needs. 
I can't even describe how deep that goes. Much more than you know.
Because it's not that your spouse wants you to leave...they don't. They just don't want to hear about "needs" or issues.
Just be quiet. Quit it with the expectations. Stop nagging me for stuff. Just be happy with what it is. 
Okay. Done deal. No complaints. All is well.
Duties only. 


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## crocus (Apr 8, 2016)

It is a privilege to share what one needs are in a relationship. It's what makes it an intimate relationship as opposed to living with a co worker. 
It's respectful to offer your partner the opportunity to work with you on those needs.
It's the right thing to do.
Share, speak up, work together on them. 
Privilege can be revoked. 



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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

podiumboy said:


> Also, there is one thing somebody said that really sticks out to me, and I'm really going to work on this.
> 
> I need to lose weight and get into shape. Not because my wife will suddenly want me more because I'm better looking, I actually don't think that'd make much of a difference. But if other women start thinking I'm attractive, that will basically act as a jump start to her libido. Guaranteed. Right now, while I don't consider myself to be ugly or repulsive, I'm not going to turn any heads either. There is something primal in a woman, where if another woman shows interest in her man, she's going to want to mark her territory, just to show those other *****es up. Right now, she doesn't have to worry about that, nobody wants her man.
> 
> It's not the same with men. It doesn't matter how many men show they are attracted to my wife or not... I still think she's beautiful and I'm gonna try to "mark my territory" every chance I get, just because she's hot.


I agree with getting yourself into shape. It does require an unwavering determination for the first month and a workout plan and diet plan before you enter any gym. 

That said, I think that there is only a small chance that it will have a noticeable effect on your wife's sexual desire because it's difficult to change someone's impression and because your kids will still be needy five years from now. It will however, greatly increase your chances of being able to enjoy great sex later in life. It will also give you more energy and mostly importantly a sense of self-worth.


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

jb02157 said:


> Yeah, I don't think that will make much of a difference. I think that main thing that's happened is she has gotten settled into what she wants, made you accept it and you seem to be fine with the little she offers. That's not ok! That's how we started and that's led to a sexless marriage. You should act on this now and not just accept the little she's willing to give. Soon you won't be having sex at all.


The problem is, in this situation, she holds all the cards. What consequences does she really have by not making our sex life a priority? It's not bad enough for me to want to leave, and I am not somebody who would have an affair. What do I have that she wants/needs? Other than financial support and help with the children, not much. It's not like I am gonna just say "no, you can't go buy groceries until you and I have some decent sex!" I know that's gonna piss a lot of people off, but ultimately it's the truth. My wife is not a gold digger who treats me like an ATM, really. I know some of you say that my needs matter, and they do to a point. I realize she should want me to be satisfied with our sex life, but she just can't provide that for me. She simply can't make herself want to have sex with me, anymore than I can make myself want to go spend the day shopping, or hanging out with her family. I do it because I have to sometimes, and she has sex with me sometimes because she has to. Because marriage is about sacrifice. In her situation, having duty sex with me is her sacrifice. It's taking time out of her busy schedule to do something I want. I'm not sure if I can make sex something she wants to do again or not. I hope so, I really do. 

I can see why some men do cheat. Sometimes, I think it would just be nice to have sex with someone who wanted have sex with me. Who had no inhibitions, no walls up, nothing else on her mind. But that's not me, I would get divorced before I got to that point. And if she ever did cheat on me, there would be no second chances for her, no limbo period of her going back and forth, no hysterical bonding sex, etc. Just straight up DONE. There is no way I could live with the fact that some other guy was having full course meals, while I was at home getting sloppy seconds and table scraps, all while paying the bills and caring for the kids.


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## m00nman (Nov 29, 2014)

Get into shape for YOU, not to make your wife jealous. What kind of power trip do you think this is? Sheesh! 

Think of it this way, do you think she wants to be smothered by a smelly, sweaty, jiggling shadow of the man she fell for? I'm not a woman but I would be glad if that experience was over in two minutes and would be looking for an out. 

Really, if you're concerned about it being mundane, then it's not the act itself but the context - and I'm not talking about wining and dining her and expecting a reward. You're right: sex should NOT be a duty, but neither should it be a requirement. It's an act of giving. Your wife is already a giver. It's not that the milk has been soured, _you've_ just gotten spoiled. 

This vacation should be a good start. Take some time to unwind and relax first, then let it happen. Don't force it. If she's showing initiative already, then something WILL happen.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

podiumboy said:


> That's all well and good, but my wife seriously believes everything is fine with our sex life. When I voice my doubts, she just brushes it off, saying that I watch too much porn and expect her to act like a porn star. Now I admit I watch my fair share of porn, but I know that porn sex and real sex are very different things.


She brushes it off because you haven't done a good enough job explaining to her how important it is and why it is important.

Don't focus on talking about sex. Talk about the relationship; the marriage. When she doesn't appear to want or enjoy sex with you; you build resentment and become emotionally detached. When you are emotionally detached, the marriage is damaged. You want to know what you can do to help her enjoy sex because you want to have a great marriage. If things continue as they are, you fear for the future of your relationship.



podiumboy said:


> The thing I keep coming back to is that, for now, I need to just accept her as she is and my marriage as it is. It's more than just "oh I wish my wife would give me a BJ, cause BJ's are awesome!". It's just a strong desire to have a mutually satisfactory sex life with my wife. It's just not possible right now.
> 
> I am 35 now, she's 31. I have made a decision that I'm going to wait until I turn 40, and revisit this situation.


You shouldn't put this off.

If you're going to stop "whining" about sex, you're probably going to initiate less. If you initiate less, you'll have less sex. There's no way that she's going to do anything to improve your sex live on her own. She's likely to just figure that you're over your "problem" and think everything's peachy.

In 5 years, barring a miracle, things will be worse, the marriage will be a mess and you'll have wasted 5 years.

When you want to leave her then, it's going to come as a rude shock to her. She had every reason to think things were fine. If she still loves you then, she's going to really, really wish you'd brought this up now.


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## crocus (Apr 8, 2016)

Op, I will make one more comment.
To anyone who has "experienced" duty sex from their spouse.....
It's not always "because they care".
Usually, it's more like...
Out of frustration. You know your partner isn't happy. You snap. Oh for X sake...do you just want me to spread my legs and lay here?
I'm just a piece of meat and you'll stick it in a hole?
And...
They actually DO it.
Over and over. And don't say a word about it for a long time.
They are getting what they want.
It's hugely deeply disrespectful. To some people.
Don't ever do it.
Go pay for a hooker. Because you just treated your spouse like one.
Once it's happened, how do you get past it? It's done. Can't be changed.



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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

crocus said:


> Op, I will make one more comment.
> To anyone who has "experienced" duty sex from their spouse.....
> It's not always "because they care".
> Usually, it's more like...
> ...


So, are you saying to accept duty sex is to disrespect the person offering it?

Isn't that accepting responsibility for another person's choices (the offer of duty sex)?


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

podiumboy said:


> The problem is, in this situation, she holds all the cards. What consequences does she really have by not making our sex life a priority? It's not bad enough for me to want to leave,


No she doesn't. She holds all the cards because you let her. Your marriage, right now, is a dictatorship and it won't get better it will get worse until you tell her what your needs are and it's not ok if they are not met. 

It's not bad enough for you to want to leave now but it will be. What about if she decides to become a full fledged refuser in the next couple of years. It's not like ten years from now some is going to turn on a light somewhere and she will want sex again. That's not likely to come back. She will likely make you accept no sex unless you speak up and do something now. You have to tell her instead of all this BS about the marriage being great...THAT IT'S NOT. You have to tell her that the marriage is in serious jeopardy because you are not being fulfilled sexually by her and if something doesn't change the consequences will be divorce. That's the only way this gets resolved. 

I made the same mistakes you are making. Ten years ago, we were barely sexually active...as you are now... and now we're not. I waited and chose to do nothing. I can't tell you how much I wish that I could go back to that time and say to her what I wrote above.


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## m00nman (Nov 29, 2014)

Livvie said:


> So, are you saying to accept duty sex is to disrespect the person offering it?
> 
> Isn't that accepting responsibility for another person's choices (the offer of duty sex)?



I don't know if she meant it that way but it does belie a certain ignorance of another person's feelings. I think that's the point. 

I think the real telling term is "duty" though. I distinguish sex from the physical act of making love. The OP is getting the former but craves the latter. I think he understands his wife's POV to an extent but unfortunately when it comes to sex we men think with two heads and cannot distinguish between them when they're both in "need." 

For his wife's part she also needs to stop thinking of it along the lines of a chore. It's something that has to be built upon and the natural result of an emotional investment in each other. It also can't be forced on to another person when they feel they have other commitments. It becomes just another thing to put on the "Honey Do" list.


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## Edmund (Apr 1, 2017)

I hate to say it, Podium, but you and wife should read the "Three Enigmas" book. The first two enigmas could be relevant to your situation.

Also, I have it on good authority that for some reason, the more women have satisfactory sex, the more they want it.


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## crocus (Apr 8, 2016)

Livvie said:


> So, are you saying to accept duty sex is to disrespect the person offering it?
> 
> Isn't that accepting responsibility for another person's choices (the offer of duty sex)?




Nope. Providing it is. And settling for it is as well


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## crocus (Apr 8, 2016)

The whole "point" to the Op entire story ...
It doesn't matter what men think. Or what I think. How does his wife feel? 
Some men have a habit of thinking they know what someone should want. And decide they have satisfactorily met the requirements by what they have done. Therefore there should be no complaining, and they should get on to meeting their needs.
You don't GET to grade yourself. Only your partner decides if needs have been met. 
Get it?
Your opinion or view has zero zilch nothing to do with it.
Complete lack of self awareness to "think" otherwise.
Your job isn't to judge what she needs. Its highly unattractive to be that way. Arrogant even.
Start with some humble pie. Stay out of her expectations and work on yourself. Be the man that is attractive to your spouse. Not judge Judy.




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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Do not ever have duty sex. Do not ever have quickies. Any more. Every again. If you start to have sex and you can see she isn't aroused and isn't interested, stop, get dressed and tell her many another time when she's into it. That's all. No more. 

While it's not entirely her job to come to the table ready to be penetrated, it is her job to come to the table ready to be aroused.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

Anon Pink said:


> Do not ever have duty sex. Do not ever have quickies. Any more. Every again. If you start to have sex and you can see she isn't aroused and isn't interested, stop, get dressed and tell her many another time when she's into it. That's all. No more.
> 
> While it's not entirely her job to come to the table ready to be penetrated, it is her job to come to the table ready to be aroused.


I don't agree with never, but I do think that if that is the only kind of sex you both are having its not a good thing for the marriage. 

If my husband could have heard the mind play going through my head most of the time we had duty (or pity sex), I am pretty sure he would have been horrified and would never have accepted pity sex again. I don't know what is going on in your wife's head, but I hope for your sake, and even more so for your wife's sake it is no where near what was in my head. It was not loving thoughts, that's for sure.

May I suggest you try an experiment. For the next month, don't initiate sex, but do initiate cuddling sessions. If you get aroused, which can't be helped, DON'T ACT on it in anyway, like rub up against her. Simply hold her and tell her she is beautiful and why you love her, etc. If she initiates sex, tell her you appreciate it, but you want what little intimate time you have to be enjoyable for the both of you. Then offer her a back rub or foot rub, or hot bath. If she chooses a hot bath, bathe her, wash her hair. Think non sexual sensual touch. Treat her like a queen during these intimate times. Stay with her, be with her emotionally and physically, just not sexually UNLESS you are SURE she is aroused and wants sex for herself not just for you. Then report back here after the month.

In the mean time, take care of yourself so you are not grouchy and horny. BUT NO PORN. Think of her to get off. And do work on your weight, for the both of you. That's always a good idea. Don't be needy, dont be a puppy dog looking for attention the rest of the time. Just enjoy being a man, a husband, a father, and her boyfriend for this month period and see what happens.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

mary35 said:


> I don't agree with never, but I do think that if that is the only kind of sex you both are having its not a good thing for the marriage.
> 
> If my husband could have heard the mind play going through my head most of the time we had duty (or pity sex), I am pretty sure he would have been horrified and would never have accepted pity sex again. I don't know what is going on in your wife's head, but I hope for your sake, and even more so for your wife's sake it is no where near what was in my head. It was not loving thoughts, that's for sure.


Nope, not loving at all.

I imagine no husband would be able to sustain an erection were he privy to the conversation happening in the his wife's head during duty sex, and even during quickies. Which is why I think they should never happen unless the sex life is otherwise fantastic to BOTH spouses hopes and expectations.



> May I suggest you try an experiment. For the next month, don't initiate sex, but do initiate cuddling sessions. If you get aroused, which can't be helped, DON'T ACT on it in anyway, like rub up against her. Simply hold her and tell her she is beautiful and why you love her, etc. If she initiates sex, tell her you appreciate it, but you want what little intimate time you have to be enjoyable for the both of you. Then offer her a back rub or foot rub,* or hot bath. If she chooses a hot bath, bathe her, wash her hair. * Think non sexual sensual touch. Treat her like a queen during these intimate times. Stay with her, be with her emotionally and physically, just not sexually UNLESS you are SURE she is aroused and wants sex for herself not just for you. Then report back here after the month.


LOVE the bath idea! And the massage, and the foot rub...


I wonder how she would respond to her getting an orgasm with no other sex? She's offering duty sex because she knows he wouldn't be happy if he wasn't getting any and she does want him to be happy. But years of duty and quickie only have got to build resentment, like "here is one more person I have to love and cuddle and ensure his need to ejaculate gets taken care off and my sexual needs are so buried they may never be found. And clearly they're not important to him because what the hell does he expect me to do with 5 minutes and half a migraine!"

It's amazing any marriage ever survives those years.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

I wouldn't try for the orgasm during this experiment, UNLESS she guided it there. Should that happen, take her there, but not you. AS HARD AS IT MAY BE, pun intended, keep this about helping her to enjoy intimate time with you again. But if you are sure she wants sex with you because she is aroused and is physically enjoying it - go for it.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

mary35 said:


> I wouldn't try for the orgasm during this experiment, UNLESS she guided it there. Should that happen, take her there, but not you. AS HARD AS IT MAY BE, pun intended, keep this about helping her to enjoy intimate time with you again. But if you are sure she wants sex with you because she is aroused and is physically enjoying it - go for it.




You're suggesting more or less a standard push pull strategy. Generally speaking, I agree with push pull theory as well and it has worked really well for me with my wife. Although I think that your particular example is too weighted toward pull without enough push. These techniques tend to work best when they are heavily weighted toward push. A hug instead of a cuddle or massage followed by enough disinterest to make her wonder if she still has you. No initiating. And as AP says no accepting duty sex at all. It's beneath you. 


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

mary35 said:


> May I suggest you try an experiment. For the next month, don't initiate sex, but do initiate cuddling sessions. If you get aroused, which can't be helped, DON'T ACT on it in anyway, like rub up against her. Simply hold her and tell her she is beautiful and why you love her, etc. If she initiates sex, tell her you appreciate it, but you want what little intimate time you have to be enjoyable for the both of you. Then offer her a back rub or foot rub, or hot bath. If she chooses a hot bath, bathe her, wash her hair. Think non sexual sensual touch. Treat her like a queen during these intimate times. Stay with her, be with her emotionally and physically, just not sexually UNLESS you are SURE she is aroused and wants sex for herself not just for you. Then report back here after the month.


Interesting suggestion, of course the OP would have had to have been castrated at 10 in order to pull it off.

Better off to just Take the long way home.


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

Anon Pink said:


> Nope, not loving at all.
> 
> I imagine no husband would be able to sustain an erection were he privy to the conversation happening in the his wife's head during duty sex, and even during quickies. Which is why I think they should never happen unless the sex life is otherwise fantastic to BOTH spouses hopes and expectations.
> 
> ...


You make it seem like I am some selfish prick who has certain expectations. To be perfectly honest, there are times where if I know duty sex is coming I will tell her we can put it off to another time. I don't enjoy duty sex anymore than she does, honestly. Sometimes if it's taking me too long to get off, and I know she's not really into it, I just fake it and pretend to cum so that we can get on with our lives... it's not gonna go anywhere. To be clear, I don't have any desire to rush through sex or foreplay, she is the one who rushes foreplay. I would gladly go down on her for as much time is needed... hell, I'd spend 15 minutes on each boob if it were acceptable to do so! The quickies were her idea, because when the kids were really little that was all we (she) had time for. We actually were pretty efficient for awhile, doggystyle used to be the quickest way for my wife to orgasm, and so just quickies in the doggystyle position became our norm. She claims to have orgasms about 50% of the time, she says she just doesn't like to moan and scream like a porn star (makes her self conscious), so I never know. I guess I'll have to take that with a truckload of salt. 

Believe me, her satisfaction is more important to me than my own. I would do anything sexually she asked me to, happily. I'm not a selfish lover.


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

Update: last night, at the advice of you people, I told her that I was not satisfied just getting duty sex. She got really pissed off and said "I thought that our sex life has been getting much better, and that we were working together to continue to make it better! But apparently nothing I do is going to be good enough, sexy enough or ****ty enough for you!" So basically, that backfired. Like I previously said, I don't think she thinks anything is wrong with our sex life at all. I understand this is a typical deflection tactic on her part, but I still feel like a jackass. And the next time we go to have sex, she'll probably be back to square one out of insecurity. Ugh...


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## 247769 (May 18, 2016)

Podiumboy I have been where you are and heard the same response, don't get discouraged, it's only a minor setback. Keep working on your relationship with her.

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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Her response is one of frustration. From her perspective she's probably giving all she has to give and she just heard it's not good enough.

I know that's not what you meant, but it is what she heard.

Have you tried telling her that you don't want to simply get off if it's not doing anything for her?

I think it's really important how you phrase things. Telling her you're not satisfied is going to be taken as her efforts aren't enough, and it's clouded by your porn use, which in her mind influences your expectations.

Which it likely does even if you know it's not real.

Otoh, telling her you feel creepy having sex she doesn't want or just wants to be done with will likely be received differently, imo.

Most of us women understand our loving husbands aren't rapists and don't like feeling like one. My hb couldn't keep an erection if he knew I didn't want to be there.

Ask her if there's anything you can do for mutually satisfying sex.

One more thing: don't fake. Ever. That's dishonest and has no place in a relationship. If I can't finish I tell my hb that it's not going to happen tonight, and he knows there are a lot of reasons that have nothing to do with him. 

When he can't he tells me he can't, and I understand. We cuddle and kiss before going to sleep.

And working on me is right.....duty sex is beneath you. Do not accept it.

Don't cop an attitude, just calmly refuse it.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

WorkingOnMe said:


> You're suggesting more or less a standard push pull strategy. Generally speaking, I agree with push pull theory as well and it has worked really well for me with my wife. Although I think that your particular example is too weighted toward pull without enough push. These techniques tend to work best when they are heavily weighted toward push. A hug instead of a cuddle or massage followed by enough disinterest to make her wonder if she still has you. No initiating. And as AP says no accepting duty sex at all. It's beneath you.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Nope - for now just suggesting a pull to see what happens. Perhaps she has just gotten out of the habit of letting herself feel! If she has a reactive sex drive - some time during the month of being treated like a queen, she should respond. 

I think she cares and she doesn't want to be the way she is - to not feel anything - but doesn't know how to fix herself. What I am suggesting is something along the lines of limited sensate focus exercises with her. http://melaniedavisphd.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Sensate-Focus-Exercises.pdf Limited in that her husband is focused on her for the month and there is not so rigid of a progression, do A than B than C, etc. But the idea of her husband setting aside regular intimate sessions (without kids of course) and re-connecting with her emotionally, focusing on connecting with her through non-sexual touch to see if her desire is rekindled in any way is more of what I am thinking. 

Just allow her to relax and enjoy feeling her husband and being with him again with no sexual pressure. The emphasis on FEEL. If she responds - then he can talk to her about why he did the experiment and then they can continue doing some of the same - only adding in more sexual contact. They both should be enjoying this time - and he can help her realize that their intimate time is NOT about just getting him off. It's about connecting both emotionally and physically. That's what he wants - and hopefully its what she wants too.

I still strongly suggest counseling. Their seems to be some major communication issues concerning sex and I suspect she may have some underlying hangups or faulty thinking patterns. However, I may be clouded by my own experience though!


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

lifeistooshort said:


> Her response is one of frustration. From her perspective she's probably giving all she has to give and she just heard it's not good enough.
> 
> I know that's not what you meant, but it is what she heard.
> 
> ...


One thing she said last night that she has never said before is that she actually is usually "satisfied" with our "duty sex". She said that she usually orgasms 50% of the time. She has never really been a vocal person during sex. She says just because she doesn't scream like a porn star doesn't mean she doesn't have an orgasm. She says her orgasms aren't usually explosive, even when she masturbates. This actually does line up with our pre-kids sex life. Before we were married, we both lived in apartments with roommates and thin walls, so our sex life was usually pretty quiet out of respect to the roommates. 

Honestly, I think once this sexual aversion stuff started, I started doing online research and discovered that we've actually always had a pretty vanilla sex life compared to a lot of people. We tried anal a few times, it really wasn't for us. I'd be up for it if she ever wanted to try again, but it's not something I have a burning desire to do again. But I think I started thinking along the lines of "why doesn't my wife do this, why doesn't my wife do that, other wives do it" and that sent me spiraling. 

When I think back, oral sex was never a huge part of our sex life anyway. My wife complained that I take too long to get off from a blowjob. She had only been with one other guy before me, and apparently a blowjob for him would only last a couple minutes. She was confused when it took me so long. The girl I dated right before my wife was always willing to put in the time to finish the BJ, and that girl was truly gifted in that department. My wife, on the other hand, just didn't seem to have a passion for it, but she was good at having sex, so we would just do that instead. Eventually, oral sex just kind of got skimmed over, and then it stopped. I think now my wife kind of views oral sex as something that young people do as a stepping stone to sex. I'm gonna try to work her back up to doing it again. As I've said before, I know I'm not bad at giving oral sex. My wife used to orgasm from it, as did other girls in the past. But I always got the impression my wife wasn't entirely comfortable with it. My wife is not very sexually experienced, otherwise. She had a boyfriend in college that she had sex with, but they were only 18, they were each other's first, they went to different colleges and probably didn't have that much sex, so most of her sex experience comes from me. I'm 4 years older than her. When we started dating she was 20 and I was 24. Not to brag, but I was much more experienced than her. I had sex with other girls that showed me all kinds of wild, crazy things. I think that initially attracted her to me, that I was this older, wiser, more experienced guy. 

My wife comes from a very religious family. My wife is no longer spiritual herself, but I think a lot of the prudish values that were taught to her have kind of stuck. I went to the same high school she did, but I was 4 years older so I didn't know her in school. But the whole community kind of has a prudish vibe to it. Only the ****ty girls actually have sex, only the really bad kids smoke and drink, etc. My HS girlfriend was considered to be the school ***** because she had sex with not only me, but a couple other guys before me. I started dating my wife when she was 20, and I think she was in her rebelious stage, and thus was more into drinking, smoking and having sex. Now that she has kids, I feel she has become much similar to her mother (shudders), as far as having an overall G-rated outlook on life.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

podiumboy said:


> You make it seem like I am some selfish prick who has certain expectations. To be perfectly honest, there are times where if I know duty sex is coming I will tell her we can put it off to another time. I don't enjoy duty sex anymore than she does, honestly. Sometimes if it's taking me too long to get off, and I know she's not really into it, I just fake it and pretend to cum so that we can get on with our lives... it's not gonna go anywhere. To be clear, I don't have any desire to rush through sex or foreplay, she is the one who rushes foreplay. I would gladly go down on her for as much time is needed... hell, I'd spend 15 minutes on each boob if it were acceptable to do so! The quickies were her idea, because when the kids were really little that was all we (she) had time for. We actually were pretty efficient for awhile, doggystyle used to be the quickest way for my wife to orgasm, and so just quickies in the doggystyle position became our norm. She claims to have orgasms about 50% of the time, she says she just doesn't like to moan and scream like a porn star (makes her self conscious), so I never know. I guess I'll have to take that with a truckload of salt.
> 
> Believe me, her satisfaction is more important to me than my own. I would do anything sexually she asked me to, happily. I'm not a selfish lover.


You are misunderstanding what we are trying to say, I think. This is not about what you are doing or not doing. Its about what she has done and is doing to your marital sex life. She is the one that for some reason is not responding sexually and appears to have decided sex in your marriage is just about getting you off and keeping you happy. She is the one that won't even let you do anything to get her warmed up or aroused - and wont even talk about it. Of course you are not happy or satisfied. Who would be! There is a problem and the problem seems to be with your wife. And you are right - she is the one that will have to fix it. 

But if you do nothing now and wait it out - hoping she will change later. Then in my opinion you are just contributing to the problem. Do you mind waiting over 20 years. My husband took your attitude and lucked out - I did change. Only it took me over 30 years - and by then we both started dealing with aging sexual issues. Your choice of course! Knowing what I know now - I strongly suggest you not wait it out! Life never calms down - there are always things that will take your attention and time away from focusing on your marital relationship. The two of you have to decide what your priorities are and then make them your real priority!!


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

podiumboy said:


> Update: last night, at the advice of you people, I told her that I was not satisfied just getting duty sex. She got really pissed off and said "I thought that our sex life has been getting much better, and that we were working together to continue to make it better! But apparently nothing I do is going to be good enough, sexy enough or ****ty enough for you!" So basically, that backfired. Like I previously said, I don't think she thinks anything is wrong with our sex life at all. I understand this is a typical deflection tactic on her part, but I still feel like a jackass. And the next time we go to have sex, she'll probably be back to square one out of insecurity. Ugh...


Thus the importance of trying the experiment. In the experiment - you are not asking her to change, or telling her you are dissatisfied. You are showing her through action that this is not about getting off sexually - and its not about you wanting her to be a porn star. You are trying to show her through action that this really is about you wanting to connect more with her both physically and especially emotionally during these limited times you have together. Stop talking and try the experiment. What do you have to lose at this point!! 

And please - find a counselor.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

podiumboy said:


> One thing she said last night that she has never said before is that she actually is usually "satisfied" with our "duty sex". She said that she usually orgasms 50% of the time. She has never really been a vocal person during sex. She says just because she doesn't scream like a porn star doesn't mean she doesn't have an orgasm. She says her orgasms aren't usually explosive, even when she masturbates. This actually does line up with our pre-kids sex life. Before we were married, we both lived in apartments with roommates and thin walls, so our sex life was usually pretty quiet out of respect to the roommates.
> 
> Honestly, I think once this sexual aversion stuff started, I started doing online research and discovered that we've actually always had a pretty vanilla sex life compared to a lot of people. We tried anal a few times, it really wasn't for us. I'd be up for it if she ever wanted to try again, but it's not something I have a burning desire to do again. But I think I started thinking along the lines of "why doesn't my wife do this, why doesn't my wife do that, other wives do it" and that sent me spiraling.
> 
> ...


Its totally possible that you have been misreading her. Wont be the first time a spouse misreads the situation. 

Does your wife orgasm through PIV only? If she does, I suppose its possible that she orgasms some of the time, but if all you are doing is quickie PIV - I seriously doubt she is having them 50% of the time. She may very well be satisfied with your sex life as is. In fact I think she probably is - since she controls it!!! 

I am also guessing she does have some sexual hangups because of her upbringing. The fact that she wont talk about it is a good indication that may be the case. 

I get her frustration, but her blowing up about you raising the issue should not make you feel bad. You have every right to try to discuss something that is bothering you. Since you know its a deflective action - call her on it. Stick up for yourself.
If either of you have a problem in the marriage - you should be able to raise the issue without getting shot down. The shooting down is a problem in and of itself.


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

mary35 said:


> Its totally possible that you have been misreading her. Wont be the first time a spouse misreads the situation.
> 
> Does your wife orgasm through PIV only? If she does, I suppose its possible that she orgasms some of the time, but if all you are doing is quickie PIV - I seriously doubt she is having them 50% of the time. She may very well be satisfied with your sex life as is. In fact I think she probably is - since she controls it!!!
> 
> ...


We don't just have quickies any more. Sometimes we have sex for so long that I get insecure about the fact that I'm taking too long, am afraid it's not going anywhere since she doesn't give me much feedback, and I fake an orgasm (I think I said this a few posts back). As Our kids are older and more independent, and there's more time and opportunity. She's actually gotten to the point where we'll do 2 positions during sex! (I know that sounds funny, but it's actually an improvement from when I would just bend her over and pound away until I was done, per her request). I guess now that I think about it, she has been trying harder. The foreplay hasn't gotten any better, but the actual sex has. There are really no positions that are off limits. Maybe she really is trying to work back up to it, and I destroyed her confidence.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

I think this is pretty common and it sucks for everyone. It seems like a lot of women have emotional conflicts with being that girl you dated and also being mommy. I'm not blaming her because we all have a hard time separating issues and so many things have changed for both of you now that you have kids. Throw in other psychological issues like our innate ability to put things in boxes and categories and to think in terms of black and white, our upbringing that says sex is taboo, her imagining what your kids will think when they know mommy has sex with daddy, etc.

So there are a lot of reasons behind this sort of thing In my opinion but reasons for something won't make it any less destructive to the relationship. Honestly from what you've posted it doesn't sound like there's a bad guy here; you're trying and it sounds like she is as well. Again not having a bad guy will not it the dynamic any less destructive to the relationship.

You can try date nights and hope for the best but at this point you guys are stuck and it may take something extreme to snap out of the rut. In the meantime your relationship is in a such vulnerable place right now. She wants to feel desire and you want to be desired. Maybe something as extreme as separating for a short time and actually dating ( each other only ) would help her desire return. Sometimes taking steps to fix a relationship seems mean, unfair, or counterproductive at first but is what it takes. I don't know if would be strong enough to following my own advice though. It's so hard when you're living it.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

podiumboy said:


> One thing she said last night that she has never said before is that she actually is usually "satisfied" with our "duty sex". She said that she usually orgasms 50% of the time. She has never really been a vocal person during sex. She says just because she doesn't scream like a porn star doesn't mean she doesn't have an orgasm. She says her orgasms aren't usually explosive, even when she masturbates. This actually does line up with our pre-kids sex life. Before we were married, we both lived in apartments with roommates and thin walls, so our sex life was usually pretty quiet out of respect to the roommates.
> 
> Honestly, I think once this sexual aversion stuff started, I started doing online research and discovered that we've actually always had a pretty vanilla sex life compared to a lot of people. We tried anal a few times, it really wasn't for us. I'd be up for it if she ever wanted to try again, but it's not something I have a burning desire to do again. But I think I started thinking along the lines of "why doesn't my wife do this, why doesn't my wife do that, other wives do it" and that sent me spiraling.
> 
> ...



Tell her that you certainly don't want to misread her so maybe she could let you know when she likes something. 

I'm not that loud either but I'll tell my hb when something feels good.

Have you ever brought up women before her? That's a huge no no.


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## megamuppet (Feb 13, 2017)

Edmund said:


> I hate to say it, Podium, but you and wife should read the "Three Enigmas" book. The first two enigmas could be relevant to your situation.
> 
> Also, I have it on good authority that for some reason, the more women have satisfactory sex, the more they want it.


Yes! If sex is rubbish we lose interest and cant be bothered. When sex is good we want it more. 

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

podiumboy said:


> We don't just have quickies any more. Sometimes we have sex for so long that I get insecure about the fact that I'm taking too long, am afraid it's not going anywhere since she doesn't give me much feedback, and I fake an orgasm (I think I said this a few posts back). As Our kids are older and more independent, and there's more time and opportunity. She's actually gotten to the point where we'll do 2 positions during sex! (I know that sounds funny, but it's actually an improvement from when I would just bend her over and pound away until I was done, per her request). I guess now that I think about it, she has been trying harder. The foreplay hasn't gotten any better, but the actual sex has. There are really no positions that are off limits. Maybe she really is trying to work back up to it, and I destroyed her confidence.


Hmmm, you're confusing me so it might be possible your wife is getting mixed messages too.

You talked about duty sex, you posted just above that you told her you weren't satisfied with just duty sex and she got angry stating she thought the sex was getting better. But then this post I quoted, indicates the sex is totally better and if this is what's been happening lately, yet you brought up duty sex recently. Then hell yes she feels like your expectations are porn induced idiocy and she will never measure up.

Duuuuuuuuudde, you gotta know when to say "I love you because you are sexyawesome!" and when to say "I love you but maybe we could work some more on...."


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

lifeistooshort said:


> Tell her that you certainly don't want to misread her so maybe she could let you know when she likes something.
> 
> I'm not that loud either but I'll tell my hb when something feels good.
> 
> Have you ever brought up women before her? That's a huge no no.


We've been together for 11 years, so she knows who my ex girlfriends were, and that I had sex with them. Just like I know that she had sex with her college boyfriend before me. I may have left out a few girls that were barely a blip on the radar (a one night stand, and a couple college flings), but it's unlikely to ever come up. I haven't been in contact with those women in over a decade, and they don't associate with anybody we know. But I certainly don't share details about the sex with other women. 

-**** no, man... I believe you'd get your ass kicked saying something like that! (Office Space)

The only reason I know that her ex boyfriend didn't take long to finish orally is because during a BJ early in our relationship, she seemed genuinely dumbfounded that after 5 minutes I hadn't busted yet. I said it usually takes awhile, and she said "sorry, my ex was usually done after a couple minutes, that's what I'm used to."


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

podiumboy said:


> We don't just have quickies any more. Sometimes we have sex for so long that I get insecure about the fact that I'm taking too long, am afraid it's not going anywhere since she doesn't give me much feedback, and I fake an orgasm (I think I said this a few posts back). As Our kids are older and more independent, and there's more time and opportunity. She's actually gotten to the point where we'll do 2 positions during sex! (I know that sounds funny, but it's actually an improvement from when I would just bend her over and pound away until I was done, per her request). I guess now that I think about it, she has been trying harder. The foreplay hasn't gotten any better, but the actual sex has. There are really no positions that are off limits. Maybe she really is trying to work back up to it, and I destroyed her confidence.


OK... And you started this thread why??? Like AnonPink, I am a bit confused too! 

If you hurt her confidence then you better start building it back up! Tell her that you brought up the subject the other night - not because you don't like what is happening during sex - but because you were concerned that she hasn't been enjoying it and THAT bothered you. Tell her that you get as much and sometimes even more enjoyment from giving her pleasure then from your pleasure. 

Do NOT apologize to her for broaching the subject. In fact it would be a good time to tell her that you feel both of you should be able to broach any subject that is an issue with your marriage so that together you can try to work out a resolution that both of you are happy with! Tell her you would like a little feed back from her when you have sex - because it is VERY important to you to know that she is enjoying it too. That you would like a little more cuddling and pillow talk after so that you can enjoy the emotional connection too!

And for the record - many women can thoroughly enjoy sex without having an orgasm. Sometimes just being close and emotionally connected is just as good as an orgasm and is all we want. And other times - what we really want is a mind blowing ending!


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## harrybrown (May 22, 2013)

wish I knew when she wants one and when she wants the other.

You could make a ton of money if you a way to let us know when one if preferred over the other.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

podiumboy said:


> We've been together for 11 years, so she knows who my ex girlfriends were, and that I had sex with them. Just like I know that she had sex with her college boyfriend before me. I may have left out a few girls that were barely a blip on the radar (a one night stand, and a couple college flings), but it's unlikely to ever come up. I haven't been in contact with those women in over a decade, and they don't associate with anybody we know. But I certainly don't share details about the sex with other women.
> 
> -**** no, man... I believe you'd get your ass kicked saying something like that! (Office Space)
> 
> The only reason I know that her ex boyfriend didn't take long to finish orally is because during a BJ early in our relationship, she seemed genuinely dumbfounded that after 5 minutes I hadn't busted yet. I said it usually takes awhile, and she said "sorry, my ex was usually done after a couple minutes, that's what I'm used to."



Umm.....yeah.....i appreciate the office space reference!

I had to ask about bringing up exes because I know personally what a turn off it is when your hb says things like "I dated this one girl and her boobs blah blah blah", or right after great sex you hear all about how many women he's been with.

For the record my hb is much better about that now but I still remember it. Made me feel like ms right now and not particularly special.....not a turn on.

And since you'd mentioned other women I had to ask.

It's fine to know who the exes are and even to share some things as they're relevant to the topic at hand.

Definitely acknowledge her efforts and as others have suggested approach this from the angle of wanting something mutually satisfying.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

podiumboy said:


> Update: last night, at the advice of you people, I told her that I was not satisfied just getting duty sex. .





lifeistooshort said:


> I think it's really important how you phrase things. *Telling her you're not satisfied is going to be taken as her efforts aren't enough*, and it's clouded by your porn use, which in her mind influences your expectations.
> 
> Which it likely does even if you know it's not real.
> 
> Otoh,* telling her you feel creepy having sex she doesn't want or just wants to be done* with will likely be received differently, imo.


pb, which of life's two meanings did you convey to your wife?

There's a VERY big difference


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

podiumboy said:


> She has not offered, and I just can't seem to find the words to bring it up. How can I say it in a way that isn't "I know you work part-time, go to college full time, and raise 2 kids, but could you also please put my **** in your mouth?"
> 
> I take her out on dates, maybe once a month, but overnight babysitters are hard to come by. She's so worn out, and if we have an overnight babysitter, I know she'd rather get a full night's sleep than stay up having sex with me all night.


Then what are you doing to make her not so worn out? She's in school full time, studying probably 3 hours for every hour she attends, working part time, and cooking/cleaning/child-caring/doctor visiting/God knows what else. When does she get to turn off? 

Most likely, never. Women don't turn off unless the man steps up and forces them to. 'Here, honey, here's a gift card for the spa; I've got the kids, here's $50 for a nice restaurant, call your friends and go out.' How often does this happen? 

When I was raising DD26, every year for my birthday, I asked for one thing: for him to take our kid and go away somewhere for the weekend. So I could just LIVE in my own home without having to be 'on' for everyone else - worrying about chores and school pleasing hubby and handling appointments and everything else. I was mentally exhausted. All I wanted was to wake up when I felt like it with nobody around; sit around the house and read a book if I felt like it instead of feeling guilty for not playing with the kid or doing what the husband wanted; go out to eat by myself or with a friend if I feel like it; go to a movie if I wanted. 

I can practically guarantee she is emotionally and physically overwhelmed and exhausted and no amount of a once-a-week date, let alone a once-a-month date, is going to make a dent in that. And do some work and FIND a regular babysitter; pay her more than other people so she stays dedicated to you guys every week; make it worth her while. You don't even have to go out when she comes over; just let her herd the kids while you two go have a picnic or a bath or something. Remember, women want the little things, the relationship things, in order to want sex.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

mary35 said:


> OK... And you started this thread why??? Like AnonPink, I am a bit confused too!
> 
> If you hurt her confidence then you better start building it back up! Tell her that you brought up the subject the other night - not because you don't like what is happening during sex - but because *you were concerned that she hasn't been enjoying it and THAT bothered you*.


This.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

mary35 said:


> Do you mind waiting over 20 years. My husband took your attitude and lucked out - I did change. Only it took me over 30 years - and by then we both started dealing with aging sexual issues. Your choice of course! Knowing what I know now - I strongly suggest you not wait it out!


This states my primary purpose for being on TAM and giving advice.

My wife and I so regret the over 20 years we spent not knowing what we know now.

And then you're old and it's _almost_ too late.


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

I appreciate all of this advice, and a lot of it I am really going to take to heart moving forward. 

In my moments of weakness, I can understand why somebody WOULD have an affair, and that actually SCARES me. I've never seriously considering doing so, there are so many reasons not to. I love my wife, love my kids, love our life together as a family. My wife is currently financially dependent on me, and if we were to get divorced, I fear what kind of living situation my kids would have. Plus, I would absolutely get taken to the cleaners, financially. I can't imagine a life of mediocre duty sex, but I also can't imagine that my wife will ever get her sex drive back. I mean, to just totally lose it by the age of 30... I don't know. 

IMO, the only things that will re-ignite her sex drive are if she has some kind of natural hormonal shift, or if she has an affair and that guy pushes all the right buttons... which would just be devastating. I truly don't believe she can be turned on by me at all, no matter what I do. Maybe her sex drive is fine, she just finds me repulsive? I don't believe that, because she seems to have a G-rated attitude towards life, and seems to find sex as a taboo subject in general. Her puritan upbringing seems to have kicked in again, after a "rebellious" period in her late teens - mid 20's, when she became a mother. She met me when she was 19, started dating and having sex with me when she was 20, married me at 22, and had our first baby at 25. Was our relationship just part of a rebellious phase she was in? While I was never a BAD BOY, I was wild as an Indian in my early-mid 20s. 

It's bad, but occasionally I've thought about prostitutes recently. Not in a serious way, just hypothecially. I sometimes think about how nice it would be to experience a blowjob again, and that it's actually quite doable if I were to spend a relatively small amount of money. But that's a ridiculous notion, and I dismiss it quickly. I'm a worst case scenario thinker, and I could never put myself or my wife at risk for STDs. I also could never have an affair, that's just so dishonest and disrespectful, and would require WAY too much work. I wouldn't want to be treated that way, and I would never treat her that way. 

I think I'm just having a bad day, and am sexually frustrated. I read threads of couples much older than us having sex almost daily, and it just grates on me. I'm happy for those folks, don't get me wrong. Some days I've accepted things as they are, and then days like today I feel almost like I'm being suffocated. Masturbation doesn't seem to stave off my desire for intimacy for more than a few minutes. Sometimes watching porn just makes me jealous instead of horny. Sorry, rant over... just having a frustrating day!!


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Get a divorce. Get a divorce while you are still young enough to have sex with some other woman. The sooner you divorce, the less you will pay your wife for your freedom.


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

Holdingontoit said:


> Get a divorce. Get a divorce while you are still young enough to have sex with some other woman. The sooner you divorce, the less you will pay your wife for your freedom.


Well, I'd honestly rather not get divorced. I love my wife very much. I just wish we could have a happy, mutually enjoyable sex life.

I work my butt off to provide for my family, and I'm happy to do it. Nothing feels like a sacrifice if it helps put a roof over my family's head and food on the table. I seriously try to put the effort into my marriage. I know I'm not perfect, but I truly do my best to make sure my wife's needs are met, and try to lighten her load as much as possible. I listen to her, I help her out, I take her out on date nights maybe once a month (usually where she wants to go), and try to be an overall good husband... and I get emotionless duty sex on average once a week. 

Meanwhile, her sister's husband is an overall piece of ****. I could go on and on, but it's not really on topic. Hasn't worked in 6 months (mostly by choice), bad temper, self centered, alcoholic, verbally abusive, yada yada yada. The guy is the absolute worst, and yet they still have sex almost every night, and they cover all the bases (her words to me, while she was drunk). Hell, I've read stories on here about men who cheat on their wives for months or years, and after their wife finds out... she ****s the living hell out of the cheating SOB!!! Porn star sex on a daily basis!! It just doesn't seem fair to me. 

Sorry, I'm having a self-loathing kind of day.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Here's a hint from the dark side. 

It won't get better when she is done with school. She'll get a job, and corporate pressure is school x 10. 

Both me and wifey had young children while in grad school, worked part time, and completed our degrees. It's not the Gulag. 

If she has no passion now she won't find it later.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

podiumboy said:


> I sometimes think about how nice it would be to experience a blowjob again,


If you wife loves you, values the marriage and has given you blowjobs before (which I believe you said she has), then it is very possible that you could be getting regular blowjobs from her (just to focus on this one issue for the moment).

But this would require playing your cards right and I don't see any evidence from what you've posted here that you're willing or capable of doing that.


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

Buddy400 said:


> If you wife loves you, values the marriage and has given you blowjobs before (which I believe you said she has), then it is very possible that you could be getting regular blowjobs from her (just to focus on this one issue for the moment).
> 
> But this would require playing your cards right and I don't see any evidence from what you've posted here that you're willing or capable of doing that.


How am I not willing or capable to play my cards right? I'm basically willing to do anything I can to help her get her sex drive back.

And yes, prior to the kids, BJs were a regular part of foreplay. Tapered off steadily after kids were born, until they just stopped a few years ago.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

podiumboy said:


> How am I not willing or capable to play my cards right? I'm basically willing to do anything I can to help her get her sex drive back.,,,,.


Have you figured out what makes your wife feel really loved and cherished? Yes, I am sure you are doing a lot for your wife, but are you making her feel loved and cherished in her love languages?

When I was in a sex starved marriage (you are not in an SSM) I worked hard to provide for my wife and family. That meant long hours at work and doing things on the weekends. Being a good provider nearly killed my marriage.

My wife's love languages (Chapmans book the 5 LL) where acts of service and quality time. While I washed dishes, did all of the laundry she would allow me to wash, vacuumed, picked up papers around the house, did the recycling, etc. my wife viewed none of that as an act of service, that was simply doing my share of the chores. Date nights didn't count as quality time. 

Nothing I did counted until one weekend morning I woke up early and went downstairs to make myself some coffee. After it was made, i decided I wanted to drink it in bed, so I brought a second cup up for my wife. She thought it was nice that I brought her coffee in bed. We woke up slowly drinking coffee, I started to talk to her and all of a sudden she was getting the quality time I had not been giving her along with my providing an act of service (from her perspective). 

The hard lesson I had to learn by trial and error was what my wife viewed as acts of service and quality time. I could do date nights, but to her that wasn't quality time. I could talk with her, find out what her problems at work were and make suggestions on things to try differently or ways to approach a problem, but that wasn't quality time to her. 

I am sure you are "....willing to do anything I can to help her get her sex drive back...." But she is the only one who can reboot her sex drive. In my opinion the cards you need to play are to make her start to feel loved and cherished again so the flame of passion can be brought to life from what embers of love still remain. 

You are looking for passion and that is something that your wife will need to discover. 

I would say that your cards are to make her feel loved in her love languages. You need to figure out ways to make it possible for her to feel passionate (get the kids out of the bed at night, change your pushing her for sex, do the Glover or MW Davis Get a Life thing) and then reinforce any positive changes in her "passion level." 

Good luck.


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## jsmart (Mar 14, 2015)

Like I told you in an earlier post, you need to work on becoming more attractive. I highly recommend that you read Athol Kay's primer " Married Man Sex Life." It's an easy read to guide you on becoming a better man, husband, and father to better attract your wife.

Complaining and becoming bitter will not attract your wife. What your situation calls for is "DREAD." Not to sound vulgar but nothing ups a woman's attraction for her man, than seeing that her man has options. 

How do you convey to your wife that you have options? Get in shape? You mentioned being over weight. You have got to know that ain't gonna help. I always recommend that men not just get their buts in the gym. I'm also a strong advocate that men get involved in a martial art or some other very physical sport. You're not too old to find your inner warrior. 

Also start to reconnect with some like minded men. Marriage and fatherhood softens us men. We lose ourselves to our jobs, marriage, and families. All worthwhile but you also shouldn't lose yourself. You need to rediscover the man that she fell in love with.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

podiumboy said:


> I appreciate all of this advice, and a lot of it I am really going to take to heart moving forward.
> 
> IMO, the only things that will re-ignite her sex drive are if she has some kind of natural hormonal shift, or if she has an affair and that guy pushes all the right buttons... which would just be devastating. I truly don't believe she can be turned on by me at all, no matter what I do.


Then you aren't really listening to the advice. Are you even willing to TRY to change your own actions? Or do you just want her to magically turn into a sex kitten without you doing anything?


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

jsmart said:


> Like I told you in an earlier post, you need to work on becoming more attractive. I highly recommend that you read Athol Kay's primer " Married Man Sex Life." It's an easy read to guide you on becoming a better man, husband, and father to better attract your wife.
> 
> Complaining and becoming bitter will not attract your wife. What your situation calls for is "DREAD." Not to sound vulgar but nothing ups a woman's attraction for her man, than seeing that her man has options.
> 
> ...


You make some very good points. I also think that getting in shape would do wonders for her attraction toward me. I also agree about the "having options" point. Back when we were dating/engaged I had other women that were attracted to me. I was sometimes flirty, but never inappropriate. I definitely do believe that was a turn on for my wife, just knowing that other women wanted what she had. Not to toot my own horn, but for a few years prior to dating her, I was somewhat of a womanizer. I had been single and looking to mingle for 3 years, and she was finally the one who made me want to settle down and get into a relationship. It took me awhile to figure out that being in a relationship meant not flirting with other girls, etc. We had some epic fights, and some epic sex also, lol. Now, that's not really an issue. Not only am I overweight and not exactly turning any heads, but I just don't know any other women. I work in the agriculture field, a field that employs more than 95% men. In my day to day life, I am literally never in the presence of another woman that is roughly my own age. This doesn't bother me at all, I don't wish to seek the companionship of other women, but yeah, there are no other "options". 

I definitely see your point about finding like-minded men. I have so few friends that are in the same situation as me. Most of my married friends are FLAT OUT MISERABLE, and aren't "allowed" to have social lives anyway. Then I have a couple friends who are freshly divorced, and let me tell you, these guys are real prizes! They have this new found "joy", and brag constantly about how great their lives are now that they're divorced, but it all seems so empty to me. I mentioned the guy who trolls Tinder looking for girls to bang, and that's all he cares about. His wife cheated on him, so he has compensated by banging as many girls as he can. Hanging out with him brings me down. Then I have a few other friends who are mid 30s, never married, never will marry, and have a series of toys and distractions. Monday bowling, Tuesday golfing, Wednesday motorcycle club, Thursday poker night, Friday meet at whatever paid club old men go to, Saturday college football, Sunday pro football, etc, etc, etc.


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

turnera said:


> Then you aren't really listening to the advice. Are you even willing to TRY to change your own actions? Or do you just want her to magically turn into a sex kitten without you doing anything?


I am definitely trying to change myself. It's easier said than done, but I know that it's the only way.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

podiumboy said:


> I am definitely trying to change myself. It's easier said than done, but I know that it's the only way.


So have you sat down and divided the chores 50/50? Have you taken the kids and gone somewhere with them so she could have time alone? Have you advertised locally for a permanent weekly babysitter?

As for friends, you need to find a group of guys who do something you like to do: baseball, football, darts, whatever. Join that group and hang out with them at least once a month. Let her see you having a life outside of her. (while you're also doing all the other stuff I said, lol)


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

turnera said:


> Then you aren't really listening to the advice. Are you even willing to TRY to change your own actions? Or do you just want her to magically turn into a sex kitten without you doing anything?


Decision Analysis guy suggests you look into the most basic of human thinking ways... Cost / benefit analysis.

You could spend hours training or thousands in new clothes and such. Good for you. Months doing more housework. But you have to assess the "return" value. 

I don't want to bore you with probability models. Let's just say it could well be the case you'll put in 95% effort and get back 5% return. Especially if you don't know what you're dealing with.

As much as she has on her plate, suggest professional intervention for both of you. If she's young she may not know how to handle everything. We were in grad school in our mid late 30s and not to brag or anything but we were light-years better academically than our 20something classmates. So I'll give her the benefit of the doubt a bit.

You have to help too. My field of study was easier than hers so I kept the kids out of her hair, while studying and watching our college team do decently well in NCAA basketball back then. Heck, we had a baby in the middle of the semester. Wasn't easy but it was doable.

If she's a passion zombie now she won't turn into Miss Passion in a few years. To the contrary...


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## BradWesley2 (Jul 15, 2016)

A couple of points:

1. Just to reinforce what some other poster have mentioned. Get the kids out of the bedroom. What it 
amounts to is literally building a human wall between the two of you.

2. It appears your wife is suffering from the "mommy syndrome". You mentioned sex being fantastic while 
dating, during the honeymoon, up to having kids. Some women, after having kids, believe mommies 
don't do those things anymore. As you know sex now translates to "wham bam thank you ma'am" and 
that's all she wrote.
To paraphrase what John117 wrote. Your wife is not a bottle of wine, she won't get better with age.
Time to act is now, to make appointments with MC and a sex therapist.

She is turning the faucet off. What was once a good deluge, is now a trickle.


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## m00nman (Nov 29, 2014)

podiumboy said:


> Update: last night, at the advice of you people, I told her that I was not satisfied just getting duty sex. She got really pissed off and said "I thought that our sex life has been getting much better, and that we were working together to continue to make it better! But apparently nothing I do is going to be good enough, sexy enough or ****ty enough for you!" So basically, that backfired. Like I previously said, I don't think she thinks anything is wrong with our sex life at all. I understand this is a typical deflection tactic on her part, but I still feel like a jackass. And the next time we go to have sex, she'll probably be back to square one out of insecurity. Ugh...


[email protected]

I don't know what to think now. Hopefully she doesn't take this as a rejection. 

You DO need to get those kids out of the bed and have dedicated couples time though. I wouldn't push for sex so much as passion, really. I think that that's what you may be craving but you just equate passion with porn sex.


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

podiumboy said:


> You make it seem like I am some selfish prick who has certain expectations. To be perfectly honest, there are times where if I know duty sex is coming I will tell her we can put it off to another time. I don't enjoy duty sex anymore than she does, honestly. Sometimes if it's taking me too long to get off, and I know she's not really into it, I just fake it and pretend to cum so that we can get on with our lives... it's not gonna go anywhere. To be clear, I don't have any desire to rush through sex or foreplay, she is the one who rushes foreplay. I would gladly go down on her for as much time is needed... hell, I'd spend 15 minutes on each boob if it were acceptable to do so! The quickies were her idea, because when the kids were really little that was all we (she) had time for. We actually were pretty efficient for awhile, doggystyle used to be the quickest way for my wife to orgasm, and so just quickies in the doggystyle position became our norm. She claims to have orgasms about 50% of the time, she says she just doesn't like to moan and scream like a porn star (makes her self conscious), so I never know. I guess I'll have to take that with a truckload of salt.
> 
> *Believe me, her satisfaction is more important to me than my own.* I would do anything sexually she asked me to, happily. I'm not a selfish lover.


Your wife is busy with the kids and on top of that she needs to satisfy you sexually? And somehow you are this great guy because you are dedicated to give her pleasure?

From personal experience as the father of 5 kids: Keep the kids in your bed as long as they want. Be helpful to both your kids and your wife and sex with her will follow.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Duguesclin said:


> From personal experience as the father of 5 kids: Keep the kids in your bed as long as they want. Be helpful to both your kids and your wife and sex with her will follow.


You must be new here. Welcome 😀

The kids in bed part I actually agree with. I can pick up a baby and relocate to the crib without even stirring. 

But the last sentence... Too optimistic.


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

Duguesclin said:


> Your wife is busy with the kids and on top of that she needs to satisfy you sexually? And somehow you are this great guy because you are dedicated to give her pleasure?
> 
> From personal experience as the father of 5 kids: Keep the kids in your bed as long as they want. Be helpful to both your kids and your wife and sex with her will follow.


The problem is, if the kids are in bed, it's hard to find a time and place to have sex... which leads to quickies on the living room couch. 

I do agree with you, though. I actually kinda like sleeping with those kids, except for the occasional kick in the balls. We have a king sized bed, so space isn't really an issue... just the ball kickings. I've been saying this whole thread that my gut is telling me that I just need to try to be a good husband and father, and not try to force the sex right now. A lot of people kick my ass for saying that, but I don't know... it's the only thing that feels right at the moment. Today, I had kind of a bad day, as far as sexual frustration goes. I read a story in another thread about a man in his 60's who is having 10x the sex life that I am having, and while I'm very happy for him, it kinda put me in a bad frame of mind. I didn't picture myself in this situation at 35.

The only thing I can do is try to be the best husband and father I can be. Focus on losing weight, and try to lighten my wife's load a little bit. I understand that I have needs too, but I'm a pretty selfless person. I'm a "giver", as somebody in this thread said. When I first got married 9 years ago, my cousin (who was 38 at the time, and was drunk at my bachelor party) said "from now on, your needs will always come last. Her needs come first, until you have kids, then all their needs come first. Your needs are dead last, if even acknowledged." Now I'm 35 and have been married 9 years, and while I realize his outlook it pretty cynical, it kind of stuck with me to a certain degree. My wife actually goes above and beyond to meet all of my non-sexual needs. She's a very beautiful, wonderful woman, I'm not sure I even deserve her. I don't think she realizes how important sex is to me. I think she just sees it as an impulse thing, like I just get horny and need to get off... she probably assumes it's her duty to occasionally provide me with a vagina to do that with, instead of my usual hand. 

Right now she's laying in bed, asleep with the kids. It really makes me sad that I can't just go to bed and make love to my wife. Even if the kids weren't there, she still wouldn't be up for it... tomorrow is a school day. Which means she'll be tired and worn out tomorrow evening, which means no sex until possibly Thursday evening. But not too late on Thursday, because she has school on Friday. Yeah...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

PB, you need to look at facts a bit.

As the kids get older, time demands will increase. When my girls were in middle or high school they required lots more time from me. But that's because I was the token dad at every school activity. Time demands will increase.

After she finishes school then she has to find work. Add stress and time needed.

Once she starts work, it will be more hectic. 

It rarely gets better. You can pretend everything is fine except intimacy. Eventually the cold shoulder gets to you.


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

john117 said:


> PB, you need to look at facts a bit.
> 
> As the kids get older, time demands will increase. When my girls were in middle or high school they required lots more time from me. But that's because I was the token dad at every school activity. Time demands will increase.
> 
> ...


I agree. My wife seems to think that her libido is going to return, one fine day. I'm not sure about all that. I agree, there's always going to be something to do, somewhere to go, something on our minds. There's never going to be this wonderful era where all of life's stress is going to magically melt away, and we'll just fall into each other's arms in a loving embrace. 

My plan is to just be cool for about 5 years and then re-evaluate. I know that some may think that's wasting 5 years of my life, but I don't see it that way. I need to take those 5 years to try to improve our marriage, improve myself, lose weight, hopefully get myself into a better spot financially, get her through school and into a career, and see where we end up. By then, maybe she'll be able to theoretically support herself financially, and she'll decide she doesn't need me anymore. Maybe by then we'll be at a point where we're both happy and going at it like rabbits, or maybe the complete opposite. I agree that it's extremely unlikely that my wife is going to desire me sexually again. I could improve myself in every way, but just because it's me, I don't think it's possible. I truly believe that the only way to revive her sex drive is if another man were to come into the picture, or if some drastic hormonal change occurred. That is a depressing thought, too. To know that if another man were to seduce her, she'd probably do things with him she hasn't done with me in years.


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## m00nman (Nov 29, 2014)

Hopefully your testosterone doesn't begin to wane once you hit 40. It's really common. I'm pretty sure that's my problem because once I hit 40 things really went downhill. That's when the aches and pains really began to hit me too. 

Seriously, don't wait. Make time for you and your wife - and by that I mean not just in the bedroom and not just regarding sex. From what I'm told, a lot of a woman's sexuality occurs between her ears not her legs.


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

m00nman said:


> Hopefully your testosterone doesn't begin to wane once you hit 40. It's really common. I'm pretty sure that's my problem because once I hit 40 things really went downhill. That's when the aches and pains really began to hit me too.
> 
> Seriously, don't wait. Make time for you and your wife - and by that I mean not just in the bedroom and not just regarding sex. From what I'm told, a lot of a woman's sexuality occurs between her ears not her legs.


I will try my best. It's not like I'm wanting to just not get laid for 5 years. I'm just not going to pester and beg anymore, but try to open back up the lines of real attraction and desire. 

My fear is that eventually my wife will turn 40 and suddenly want sex every day, and by that time I won't be able to perform to those standards. That would be some cruel irony!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

podiumboy said:


> I will try my best. It's not like I'm wanting to just not get laid for 5 years. I'm just not going to pester and beg anymore, but try to open back up the lines of real attraction and desire.
> 
> My fear is that eventually my wife will turn 40 and suddenly want sex every day, and by that time I won't be able to perform to those standards. That would be some cruel irony!


The odds of her turning off sexually due to work or simply not interested are far higher than your scenario above...


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

You have a few choices, all of them bad if your wife does not respond favorably.

You can divorce over this.
You can accept a sexless marriage.
You can pester her for sex.
You can cheat.

I know you don't like any of them. You want "stay married and have mutually satisfying sex". For now, that is not on your menu.

Divorce is painful and affects your kids and your finances. It does give you freedom to seek someone who wants to share a mutually satisfying sex life with you. Only you know if that trade is worth it to you.

Accepting a sexless marriage helps on the kids and finances and there is every reason to believe your wife will be even more affectionate and caring when you take that "chore" off her list. You simply have to accept that marriage involves accepting the bad with the good and your "bad" is not having sex. I can tell you from experience that not having sex at all is easier to tolerate than having less than you want, having sex without passion, etc. No sex at all is actually better and easier to tolerate than lousy sex or starfish sex or duty sex.

Pestering her for sex or cheating are not suggested. Pestering almost never works and reduces the quality of the marriage. It leads to duty / starfish sex, which you ought to train yourself to refuse absolutely. And cheating is awful for all involved if you have a soul and a conscience, which you do.

It really is that simple to describe. The hard part is picking.

Oh, and yes you can hit the gym and rock things at work and make yourself the best version of you possible and take her on dates and use your next raise to hire help around the house and the next bonus to take her on vacation. Might work to help her feel like having sex with you in the long term. But in the short term you face the choices I described. Good luck.


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

Holdingontoit said:


> You have a few choices, all of them bad if your wife does not respond favorably.
> 
> You can divorce over this.
> You can accept a sexless marriage.
> ...


I like this, very well put. Cheating is not an option for me. I may not be a perfect person, but I know in my heart I am not a person who could ever cheat on their spouse. Even if I do end up very successful in my weight loss goal and end up attracting other women, I will not cheat. I could never be THAT GUY. Even if she cheats on me, I wouldn't have a revenge affair. I would just end it. When we were younger and other women would come on to me, I used to take great pleasure in shooting them down and making them feel stupid for trying, because I already have a great woman. And she still is a great woman.

Divorce is not something I wish to do, nor does she. We've worked hard to build a life together, and that's not something I take for granted. We still have a lot of goals that we want to accomplish together. The only way I'd consider divorce is if she cheated on me, or just went off the reservation crazy. I am pretty confident that neither scenario will happen, but not naive enough to discount it completely. At the end of the day, you can really only control your own actions.

I am going to stop pestering for sex. I might ask if she wants to periodically, and if the answer is no, I'll just suck it up, take it like a man and go jerk off. I haven't even asked for sex in over 2 weeks. She has initiated once, I agreed, and it was your standard duty sex. I don't even know why she initiated, since she clearly wasn't in the mood. I think she just thought she should check it off the to do list. But in the future, if she initiates and I can tell she's just doing it out of a sense of obligation, I will pass. 

As you said, no sex IS better than duty sex. I can deal with no sex, honestly. If sex were taken completely off the table, I could accept that and just get on with my life. But this wondering "why isn't she into it? Is it something I'm doing wrong? WHAT WOMAN, WHAT??!!" is annoying, and quite frankly it's affecting my mental well being. It sometimes makes me an *******. I suppose part of that logic is that if there is NO sex, then it's clearly HER problem. But if there's occasion passionless, emotionless duty or starfish sex, then it could also be MY problem. It could be something I'M not doing right. 

It's sad and a little bit frustrating. It really bothers me that some guys can act like complete *******s, even CHEAT on their wives, and the result is that their women can't get enough of them. I think that's the part that hurts the most.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

podiumboy said:


> It's sad and a little bit frustrating. It really bothers me that some guys can act like complete *******s, even CHEAT on their wives, and the result is that their women can't get enough of them. I think that's the part that hurts the most.


Eeyore doesn't do it for most women.


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

Buddy400 said:


> Eeyore doesn't do it for most women.


Which cartoon character would you advise I model myself after, then?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

john117 said:


> If she's a passion zombie now she won't turn into Miss Passion in a few years. To the contrary...


If she was Miss Passion in the past, she can be again - as long as she doesn't feel that she is pulling 75% of all the weight in the family. As I've said, WOMEN DO NOT TURN OFF. They are, and feel, responsible for everyone in the home, all.the.time. Unless the man is stepping up and ensuring that she steps away and is able to perform - and feel - like a real human being again, instead of just everyone else's cook/mother/maid/doctor/slave, you'll ever find Miss Passion again.

This is on YOU. For now. IF you make the situation 50/50 and she still doesn't step up, THEN you have a problem.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

podiumboy said:


> The problem is, if the kids are in bed, it's hard to find a time and place to have sex... which leads to quickies on the living room couch.
> 
> Right now she's laying in bed, asleep with the kids. It really makes me sad that I can't just go to bed and make love to my wife. Even if the kids weren't there, she still wouldn't be up for it... tomorrow is a school day. Which means she'll be tired and worn out tomorrow evening, which means no sex until possibly Thursday evening. But not too late on Thursday, because she has school on Friday. Yeah...


So why didn't you pick up all the kids and carry them to their bedrooms? I assume they all have their own bed? Watch some episodes of SuperNanny with your wife. Four out of five episodes are always about the parents being too chicken to 'upset' the kids by making them sleep in their own beds.

And it is your job as the MALE, the head of the household, to determine that the kids don't belong in your bed and put your foot down. 

At the same time, though, it is also your job to ensure that you are contributing 50/50 and that you have hired a babysitter so you two can still DATE at least once a week. 

I'm not making this up. It works. She enjoyed feeling like a sexy beautiful woman when you were dating; you pursued her. Now you have let her maternal instinct/GUILT guide her actions, you have taken a back seat, and thus you are spiraling downward. YOU have the chance to turn this all around.

But it takes ACTION. By YOU. Have you placed that ad for a babysitter yet? It's been two days now. Have you started taking on childcare when you get home? It's been two days since I brought this up. Two days since you've VOWED you're willing to change. 

And now you say you're just gonna sit back and wait? Why am I not surprised. All YOU really want is your wife to desire you and tear your clothes off, but you really aren't willing to DO anything to get it.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

podiumboy said:


> Which cartoon character would you advise I model myself after, then?


IDK, maybe ANY character that gets off his ass and actually DOES something?

Sheesh.


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

Geez, you people act like I come home after work, walk right past the kids, the dishes, the dirty laundry, sit on the couch and say "blow me, *****!"

I can honestly say our household duties are 50/50. I do 90% of the cleaning, no joke. Plus the kids are constantly making new messes, so it's hard to keep on top of it! I do all of my own laundry. I do a lot of work with the kids, give them baths, get their outfits ready for the next day, play with them, etc. I keep the yard mowed, the outside looking nice. The only thing I don't do is cook, because I'm awful at it. If I'm just cooking for myself that's one thing, but nobody should be subjected to my cooking. 
In addition to all that, I probably make 90% of our annual income. I'm really not keeping score, nor am I looking for a pat on the back, but I'm confident that I do my fair share. 

You people keep saying I need to get off my ass and do something about my situation. I really don't know what more I can do! My wife just DOES NOT WANT TO HAVE SEX WITH ME! We just had a date night last Saturday. We had a great time! Went to a brewery and tried a bunch of different craft beer... this was where SHE wanted to go, mind you. I didn't drag her to some brew pub to watch me get drunk. We had great conversation, laughed, were physically affectionate and kissed a lot... and no sex. Probably never crossed her mind, and I wasn't really in the mood to pester for duty sex.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Turnera, some women expect the man to carry 90% of the load. And even if the men carry 105% of the load, it's still not enough.

I'll be up refinishing window sills till 11pm while she'll go to bed at 9 and watch TV till 11. 

Your gender model only considers the happy path. There's lots of outliers out there...


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

turnera said:


> So why didn't you pick up all the kids and carry them to their bedrooms? I assume they all have their own bed? Watch some episodes of SuperNanny with your wife. Four out of five episodes are always about the parents being too chicken to 'upset' the kids by making them sleep in their own beds.
> 
> And it is your job as the MALE, the head of the household, to determine that the kids don't belong in your bed and put your foot down.
> 
> ...


I don't know how many times I can say this; MY WIFE CAN NOT BE SEDUCED!!! SHE DOES NOT WANT TO BE SEXUAL!!! She doesn't like talking about sex, she doesn't think about sex, she acts like sex is some fad that all the kids were doing before we had our own children. The very idea of having sex is repulsive to her! We are very affectionate towards one another, often stopping to kiss each other as we pass in the kitchen. Hold hands when we drive in the car together, often kiss at red lights. She sits on my lap frequently just to have a conversation, and cuddles me on the couch while we watch TV, or go to a movie, etc. But when it comes time to have sex, she is like a ****ing statue. She freezes up, like she's actually petrified about what's about to happen. 

I did put my foot down about the kids not sleeping in our bed, and usually they start the night off in their own rooms. But 50% of the time, our youngest (3) ends up in bed with us at some point int he night. She refuses to let anybody watch our kids unless they're immediate family (my parents, her mom and her sister are the only acceptable candidates), and she cannot be negotiated with on this subject. Like I said, we had a babysitter last Saturday and had a date night that resulted in no sex. I contribute 50/50 for sure, I am confident of that. I try to make her feel beautiful and sexy as much as I can. I don't just say it, I show it. This isn't my first rodeo, I know how to make my wife feel beautiful and special. I don't let her feel that I take her for granted. 

SHE SIMPLY DOES NOT WANT TO HAVE SEX!!!!! Her sex drive is completely gone. She thinks it's gross, and completely inappropriate to talk about. She has no interest in making it pleasurable for herself AT ALL. She claims to have not masturbated since the kids were born, and it wouldn't surprise me at all. She refuses to let me go down on her, or try anything that might make her enjoy it. I asked her if she has any friends she might talk about sex with, just to get somebody else's opinion. She scoffed and said that she refused to talk about sex with any of her friends, it's so crass and inappropriate to share those details. She gets super offended by dirty jokes, judges people who talk openly about their sex life, and if there's a nude/sex scene in a movie, you'd think she just had to watch somebody take a ****.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Some of us who live with LD women understand. Some people do not want sex, or want it very rarely and in a limited form 

All my 30 years of married experience can tell you is that it won't get better.

Leave, cheat, live like a monk.

Select one of the above miserable choices. 






podiumboy said:


> Geez, you people act like I come home after work, walk right past the kids, the dishes, the dirty laundry, sit on the couch and say "blow me, *****!"
> 
> I can honestly say our household duties are 50/50. I do 90% of the cleaning, no joke. Plus the kids are constantly making new messes, so it's hard to keep on top of it! I do all of my own laundry. I do a lot of work with the kids, give them baths, get their outfits ready for the next day, play with them, etc. I keep the yard mowed, the outside looking nice. The only thing I don't do is cook, because I'm awful at it. If I'm just cooking for myself that's one thing, but nobody should be subjected to my cooking.
> In addition to all that, I probably make 90% of our annual income. I'm really not keeping score, nor am I looking for a pat on the back, but I'm confident that I do my fair share.
> ...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

uhtred said:


> Some of us who live with LD women understand. Some people do not want sex, or want it very rarely and in a limited form
> 
> All my 30 years of married experience can tell you is that it won't get better.
> 
> ...


How about, "Be grateful for what you have"?

His wife does have sex with him. Some wish they were so lucky.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

PB, you're preaching to the vaunted TAM peanut gallery. Here, all men and women want 24/7 sex subject to the pop psychology book de jour😀😀

After all we all know it's the man's fault for everything bad that happens in a marriage.

What you describe is textbook attitude for a long term reactive non sexual person. Someone who not only never thinks about sex, but who actively blocks sexual desire. 

The peanut gallery does not believe such creatures exist, not any more than unicorns do.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> PB, you're preaching to the vaunted TAM peanut gallery. Here, all men and women want 24/7 sex subject to the pop psychology book de jour😀😀
> 
> *After all we all know it's the man's fault for everything bad that happens in a marriage.*
> 
> ...


You must be reading Gottman.


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## crocus (Apr 8, 2016)

Podium,
You are sharing a lot of emotions and maybe projections related to how sad you are that things are the way they are, most people are closed to actions when they are in that state. 
Getting pissed off works better.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> You must be reading Gottman.


No, I'm reading jld 😁

Just (10 pm) finished taping 30 ft worth of window trim while listening to books on tape. Wifey retired to her chambers at 8 pm, watches TV till now, and complains that I make too much noise walking (barefoot). 

I'm sure Dr. Gottman would be ready to go into real estate sales if she ever showed up at his clinic...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> No, I'm reading jld 😁


Who reads Gottman.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

OP, my husband and I did not have babysitters, and our younger kids still sleep with us sometimes. 

Nevertheless, we have always had an active sex life, without limiting our kids' access to us. We just waited until they were asleep and went into another room, or got up early while they were still sleeping. It can be done.

Your wife is pretty busy these days. How about just apologizing for getting upset the other day, and telling her how grateful you are for the efforts she makes? That could go a long way towards restoring warm feelings in her heart for you.


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

jld said:


> OP, my husband and I did not have babysitters, and our younger kids still sleep with us sometimes.
> 
> Nevertheless, we have always had an active sex life, without limiting our kids' access to us. We just waited until they were asleep and went into another room, or got up early while they were still sleeping. It can be done.
> 
> Your wife is pretty busy these days. How about just apologizing for getting upset the other day, and telling her how grateful you are for the efforts she makes? That could go a long way towards restoring warm feelings in her heart for you.


I did apologize, and I truly meant it. I didn't really mean for her to take it the way she took it, but it makes complete sense why she did. She got over it pretty quickly, it's not like it was a huge fight. 

We usually do it in the living room when our kids lay in our bed. I guess I shouldn't complain, as there are many men who would probably love to have the sex life I have.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

You're thinking steady state. Track your progress in Excel over 2 years and see what it says. 

And learn to pick up a sleeping toddler without awakening them. I'm pretty sure I could pick up my cat and he wouldn't wake up...


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

podiumboy said:


> I did put my foot down about the kids not sleeping in our bed, and usually they start the night off in their own rooms. But 50% of the time, our youngest (3) ends up in bed with us at some point int he night. She refuses to let anybody watch our kids unless they're immediate family (my parents, her mom and her sister are the only acceptable candidates), and she cannot be negotiated with on this subject.


Just so you know, you are not alone (if that is any consolation, lol). My son is five, and despite all our best efforts, still won't sleep through the night in his own room. He always winds up in our bed at some point. And I have to say, I, too, have a hard time kicking him out. He can be a great snuggle buddy, and it feels comforting having him so close. Except when I get kicked in the balls, of course, lol. If it is a real problem, just stick a pillow in between you and the kid - works for me!

And five years in, my wife *just* started to allow for the possibility of babysitters (at least, those who are not family). We had a next door neighbor girl watch our son for an hour and a half a couple weeks ago so we could duck out for some sushi at a restaurant one block from our house. Bonus - since the girl is only 12 (but has spent a lot of time with our son over the years), we can actually afford her services, lol. Most 'professional' babysitters would just about double the cost of any night out.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

podiumboy said:


> That's all well and good, but my wife seriously believes everything is fine with our sex life. When I voice my doubts, she just brushes it off, saying that I watch too much porn and expect her to act like a porn star. Now I admit I watch my fair share of porn, but I know that porn sex and real sex are very different things.
> 
> Who knows? Maybe she'll never get back her sex drive. Maybe it's just me? Maybe she'll meet somebody else who lights her fire? I don't know, there's absolutely no way to predict that. But I do know that at this point, our sex life truly is as good as it possibly can be. She cannot be seduced... at least not by me. Giving me a blowjob won't make her feel better about herself after a bad day. I don't buy it that she doesn't love me because she doesn't share her body with me completely. She actually shows me she loves me in many other ways, tells me every single day, and I to her. I think part of it is she's overwhelmed, and I think part of it is she has grown to associate sex with negative feelings somehow. Like every mistake I've made gets lumped into this giant mass that is sitting on top of her sex drive or something.
> 
> ...


If you're in no immediate rush, why not try an experiment of giving up the porn completely for a length of time? 

I'm not going to pretend to know precisely what you've been through, but as a woman I can say that I bet your wife was very hurt by your initial refusal for therapy. Women don't suggest therapy lightly. They do have some expertise in this over men because inherently women are more comfortable at expressing their feelings. It helps them to let out some of the chaos in their brain and heal, gain perspective. Your reaction likely made her feel like you were dismissing her cry for help. 

Let enough time go by, and she'll stop caring, since she'd interpret your refusal as not caring. So, even though you are open to it now, she's probably too resentful to join you. That ship has sailed.

Another thing ...you differentiate between porn sex and sex with her. Do you think that she understands you feel differently about the two and compartmentalize them? Because very few women that I have known are able to conceive, let alone accept such a compartmentalization. Likely all she knows is that you watch porn and likely you expect sex to be like pornstar sex.


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

Satya said:


> If you're in no immediate rush, why not try an experiment of giving up the porn completely for a length of time?
> 
> I'm not going to pretend to know precisely what you've been through, but as a woman I can say that I bet your wife was very hurt by your initial refusal for therapy. Women don't suggest therapy lightly. They do have some expertise in this over men because inherently women are more comfortable at expressing their feelings. It helps them to let out some of the chaos in their brain and heal, gain perspective. Your reaction likely made her feel like you were dismissing her cry for help.
> 
> ...


I truly think she understands my relationship with porn. It's never really been an issue at all, we've never once argued about porn. She's caught me jacking off to porn a couple times, and she just kinda laughed and walked away. She says her brother had a porn addiction, and she can tell that it's really not a big deal with me. We used to watch porn together before the kids to get warmed up. Now, watching porn would probably make her sick to her stomach.

I truly regret not going to MC when she brought it up. I thought it would just make us fight more, and end our marriage. I just kinda thought marriage counselors play on the woman's insecurities to keep them coming back, and since their husbands just want to get laid and keep their wives happy, so they keep paying this guy to tell them what a piece of **** they are.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

podiumboy said:


> I truly think she understands my relationship with porn. It's never really been an issue at all, we've never once argued about porn. She's caught me jacking off to porn a couple times, and she just kinda laughed and walked away. She says her brother had a porn addiction, and she can tell that it's really not a big deal with me. We used to watch porn together before the kids to get warmed up. Now, watching porn would probably make her sick to her stomach.
> 
> I truly regret not going to MC when she brought it up. I thought it would just make us fight more, and end our marriage. I just kinda thought marriage counselors play on the woman's insecurities to keep them coming back, and since their husbands just want to get laid and keep their wives happy, so they keep paying this guy to tell them what a piece of **** they are.


I would seriously consider Satya's suggestion if I were you. Are you familiar with this site?

https://yourbrainonporn.com/


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

You seem to have a very strong negative opinion/outlook about your wife's sexuality. You don't care about the quantity of Sex but more the quality? What if she is doing the best she can. What if she is doing what she likes. It seems she is happy with her Sex life and you are the one reading her facial expressions and critiquing her enjoyment based off of how you think she should look and act. But she initiates, so she obviously likes and wants to have Sex with you. It's hurtful to assume it's duty sex and she is just checking you off a list. Why can't you realize and think that she initiates because she wants to have sex with you, and that she enjoys it the way she knows how to enjoy it. 
You are putting these terrible thoughts in your head that she thinks these things about you but it's not coming from her, it's coming from you. It's actually messed up to think about it. You need to relax. She loves you, she loves to have Sex with you. She is a busy women who makes time to have sex with you. Sorry it's not the quality your looking for, but she is doing what is comfortable to her. You can't judge her reaction to Sex and how she acts and assume it's because she doesn't like sex, its duty sex, your a checklist, and she will leave you when the kids grow up. That's crazy.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Katie, let's revisit in 4 or 5 years when her career pressure and kid activities make once weekly become once monthly...

Because it's comfortable to her, and tough luck if he disagrees.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

A much more productive experiment would be to would be for Podium Boy to systematically remove his own sexual desire. Right thought patterns, right diet, and the self control not to talk about what you are doing. It is amazing what happens when you are no longer begging, and she has no lever to keep you wrapped around her finger. Get your power back.


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## megamuppet (Feb 13, 2017)

I spoke to my husband about this, I posted earlier on the thread. 

He explained that work is stressing him, he feels tired and when he feels like it, I am usually tired so he doesnt want to burden me.

I told him I miss all the stuff we did early on. Showering together, midday sex, morning sex, any sex really. He said he missed it too but feels too exhausted at times. I promised to be less of a sex pest if he promised to make an effort.

It is working. Sex 3 times this week and counting!  I think talking is a great thing, as long as everyone is really honest!

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

Mr. Nail said:


> A much more productive experiment would be to would be for Podium Boy to systematically remove his own sexual desire. Right thought patterns, right diet, and the self control not to talk about what you are doing. It is amazing what happens when you are no longer begging, and she has no lever to keep you wrapped around her finger. Get your power back.


I did this myself. I don't recommend it. Though I really don't have a better alternative, unfortunately.

Of course, I would have to know what you mean by 'right thought patterns', because I have no idea if my thought patterns were 'right' or not, though I certainly wouldn't characterize them as 'right.' More like 'effective.'

The problem is, I turned myself off to the point that I was/am pretty ambivalent about sex (both with my wife, and in general), which is clear to my wife, so even if she does feel like approaching, she often doesn't. She doesn't want to put herself 'out there' sexually/intimately for someone who appears uninterested or recalcitrant with regard to her advances. 

While you can say (as I have), "serves her right!", what it mostly accomplishes is ensuring that the dead bedroom stays dead.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Mr. Nail said:


> A much more productive experiment would be to would be for Podium Boy to systematically remove his own sexual desire. Right thought patterns, right diet, and the self control not to talk about what you are doing. It is amazing what happens when you are no longer begging, and she has no lever to keep you wrapped around her finger. Get your power back.


It's called "ABC sex"

(Anniversary, Birthday, and Christmas)


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

Buddy400 said:


> Eeyore doesn't do it for most women.


Hahahaha...

I actually (unfortunately) garnered the nickname 'Eeyore' (actually coined by one of our mutual friends, embarrassingly enough) when my sex life was circling the drain. So not good on so many levels...

I wish I could go back, knowing then what I know now...


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

megamuppet said:


> It is working. Sex 3 times this week and counting!  I think talking is a great thing, as long as everyone is really honest!


:smthumbup:

Big congrats, hopefully it is not a blip and you guys are able to maintain at a good level. You tied my 2017 year to date total this week alone lol


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> :smthumbup:
> 
> Big congrats, hopefully it is not a blip and you guys are able to maintain at a good level. You tied my 2017 year to date total this week alone lol


Wow, three times in 3 1/2 months? No wonder you are frustrated. I thought you had posted a few months ago about it just being twice a week.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

@Dazedconfuzed , I'd be happy to discuss this further and how it worked for me but it would need a new thread to not hijack this thread and, I don't think many people are that interested. 
I was just saying that if you are going to invest a month in an "experiment", I wouldn't go the princess route. It rewards negative behavior. What I would do is make changes in myself. Because changing yourself is much easier and more effective than trying to change someone else. And it doesn't have to be lowering desire. Add excitement, try a dread game, BE "interesting". The choices are endless. In most cases unsatisfactory sex lives occur when one partner isn't interested in the other. If what you are doing isn't working. Try some thing else.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

Mr. Nail said:


> @Dazedconfuzed , I'd be happy to discuss this further and how it worked for me but it would need a new thread to not hijack this thread and, I don't think many people are that interested.
> I was just saying that if you are going to invest a month in an "experiment", I wouldn't go the princess route. It rewards negative behavior. What I would do is make changes in myself. Because changing yourself is much easier and more effective than trying to change someone else. And it doesn't have to be lowering desire. Add excitement, try a dread game, BE "interesting". The choices are endless. In most cases unsatisfactory sex lives occur when one partner isn't interested in the other. If what you are doing isn't working. Try some thing else.


Thanks for the clarification. I whole-heartedly endorse what you write here. I definitely didn't do many/most of those things.

And as a caution to those new to the concept, I absolutely think 'dread game' is something men should always have going on (preferably as a natural expression of who they are, not as part of a personal agenda that attempts to 'change' someone), but the dynamics at play really need to be thoroughly understood in order for it not to backfire. Properly implemented, it makes everyone feel excited, attracted, and happy. Improperly implemented, it can lead to a loss of respect and provoke contempt (and thereby further kill any attraction that may have still been there). Just my two-cents...


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

jld said:


> Wow, three times in 3 1/2 months? No wonder you are frustrated. I thought you had posted a few months ago about it just being twice a week.


lol no. Since the end of August I could count on both my hands the number of times and prob have a finger or two left over  . Usually go 1+ months without, throw in maybe 1-2x in one week or so, then 1+ months without.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I think "dread game" is a very unhealthy, manipulative idea. 

Much better to inspire attraction through emotional connection.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Bad boys will stop being bad when women stop rewarding them for it. Same goes for dread games. Don't give them what they say they want, give them what they respond to, which is, logically, what they want. 
::thread jack :: @jld I'm curious as to the status of your relationship. Several of your recent posts lead me to think you are changing the power balance, which has surprised me. ::end thread jack::


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Mr. Nail said:


> Bad boys will stop being bad when women stop rewarding them for it. Same goes for dread games. Don't give them what they say they want, give them what they respond to, which is, logically, what they want.
> ::thread jack :: @jld I'm curious as to the status of your relationship. Several of your recent posts lead me to think you are changing the power balance, which has surprised me. ::end thread jack::


No, pretty much the same.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

jld said:


> I think "dread game" is a very unhealthy, manipulative idea.
> 
> Much better to inspire attraction through emotional connection.


Healthy relationships require both an emotional and a sexual connection, and those two types of connections are correlated but distinct. Ester Parel gets into the details of this dualism in her book "Mating in Captivity."

For example, when my wife had little-to-no interest in me sexually, she still emphatically maintained that she loved and cared about me, and that my accusations that she no longer loved me (because she was sexually unattracted to me) hurt her deeply. That conundrum is what actually had me start researching and learning in an attempt to figure out how that could be true. Once I learned more, I stopped accusing her of not loving me (which she appreciated), and focusing on the 'desire' problem instead of the 'love' problem.

'Dread Game' goes to work on creating *sexual* attractiveness and desire, and a lot of the better ideas involved in/approaches to 'dread game' align very well with Ester Parel's conclusions.

I agree that it *can* be unhealthy and manipulative, but that is due to user error and is not, for me, an indictment of the underlying principle. If someone is trying to run 'dread game' without understanding the dynamics and without actually having real value/attractiveness to display, it isn't going to work.

My understanding of what 'dread game' actually is is based on my own experience when I was a man at the height of his sexual attractiveness. At that time, I had neither any knowledge of, nor interest in, what is referred to as 'dread game.' I was just doing what I knew experientially knew (if not consciously knew) would create desire in others. I was doing both what what I was incentivized to do and what felt natural to me. Being 'manipulative' or hurting others was the last thing on my mind, and if I ever got the sense that what I was doing was causing another (like my wife) any kind of hurt or harm, I would have stopped immediately, as the emotional well-being of her and any other women in my life was always of utmost concern for me.


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## Phil Anders (Jun 24, 2015)

Does Perel use this phrase, or is it borrowed from PUA circles? I think "game" implies manipulation for many. And "dread" is similarly a loaded word: if it isn't a state you're eschewing for yourself, but creating for someone else, how can it not be manipulation? 

Maintaining oneself physically while becoming/remaining a man of strength & worth & passionate interests, of the sort that is implicitly attractive to women, seems like a good end in itself. It should serve you well regardless of the state of your marriage. I think it's odd to call it "dread game" vs. "self-improvement" or "having a life", unless you're advocating it as a tactical move in a fundamentally adversarial relationship..


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

john117 said:


> Turnera, some women expect the man to carry 90% of the load. And even if the men carry 105% of the load, it's still not enough.
> 
> I'll be up refinishing window sills till 11pm while she'll go to bed at 9 and watch TV till 11.
> 
> Your gender model only considers the happy path. There's lots of outliers out there...


Until I see the specifics, I remain firmly doubtful that OP actually does 90% of housework.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I'm speaking from experience. Somehow mowing the lawn at 100F is the same as sorting laundry..


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

podiumboy said:


> I did put my foot down about the kids not sleeping in our bed, and usually they start the night off in their own rooms. But 50% of the time, our youngest (3) ends up in bed with us at some point int he night.


Whose fault is that? Like I said, watch SuperNanny. Nearly every episode involves Jo teaching the parents to spend ONE night being hyper-vigilant to making sure those kids go BACK to their beds and wake up in their beds the next morning. Yeah, it's a pain in the ass - for one night. But in the end, the kids give up and accept what the ADULTS tell them to do - stay in their own beds. 



> She refuses to let anybody watch our kids unless they're immediate family (my parents, her mom and her sister are the only acceptable candidates), and she cannot be negotiated with on this subject. Like I said, we had a babysitter last Saturday and had a date night that resulted in no sex.


So one of your parents or her sister was the babysitter Saturday? Or was it an actual babysitter? If the latter, then you are not accurate - she DOES let other people babysit, and what this really amounts to is your inability to stand up to your wife, for whatever reason.

Are you familiar with the concept of the man as the head of the family? Psychologically speaking, women are attracted to men who step up and self-reliantly take on a role of leading the family - even when the woman turns herself into a mommy and forgets she was once a sexy wife.

She WANTS you to be stronger and step up. Even if she doesn't know it. It goes back to caveman days - it's in women's DNA to want the strong man and treat the weak man like another woman.

You've been suggested to read Married Man Sex Life Primer. Have you read it yet? Have you read No More Mr Nice Guy? These are the things you need to know, to learn, in order for your wife to ever desire you again. 



> SHE SIMPLY DOES NOT WANT TO HAVE SEX!!!!! Her sex drive is completely gone. She thinks it's gross, and completely inappropriate to talk about. She has no interest in making it pleasurable for herself AT ALL. She claims to have not masturbated since the kids were born, and it wouldn't surprise me at all. She refuses to let me go down on her, or try anything that might make her enjoy it. I asked her if she has any friends she might talk about sex with, just to get somebody else's opinion. She scoffed and said that she refused to talk about sex with any of her friends, it's so crass and inappropriate to share those details. She gets super offended by dirty jokes, judges people who talk openly about their sex life, and if there's a nude/sex scene in a movie, you'd think she just had to watch somebody take a ****.


Now, given this, there is ONE alternative option here: her upbringing created a woman who feels utter shame at enjoying sex, and used it only to GET you and to PROCREATE. If that is the case, then you will indeed have trouble getting through to her. She will require intensive psychological care to learn that sex is NOT a sin. And if you are unwilling to INSIST that she attend therapy with you to get that help, then you may as well just divorce because upbringing doesn't change without therapy. 

That said, you haven't even tried the stuff I keep suggesting, and your 'solution' is to stop expecting sex and wait for her to wake up? Yeah, right.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

Phil Anders said:


> Does Perel use this phrase, or is it borrowed from PUA circles? I think "game" implies manipulation for many. And "dread" is similarly a loaded word: if it isn't a state you're eschewing for yourself, but creating for someone else, how can it not be manipulation?
> 
> Maintaining oneself physically while becoming/remaining a man of strength & worth & passionate interests, of the sort that is implicitly attractive to women, seems like a good end in itself. It should serve you well regardless of the state of your marriage. I think it's odd to call it "dread game" vs. "self-improvement" or "having a life", unless you're advocating it as a tactical move in a fundamentally adversarial relationship..


She does not use the phrase, and I do believe it is borrowed from PUA circles. 

My thought is that they use the term 'dread game' to provoke men into action. Much as many around here try to shake men out of their complacency regarding issues in their marriage (whether it is confronting a cheater, or addressing their wife's bad behavior, or whatever) by trying to get them in touch with their anger.

And while, at least from my understanding of it, 'dread game' incorporates things like 'self-improvement' and 'having a life', I think it also addresses specific ways of being and actions that sexually attractive men naturally be and do. For example, fully embracing and displaying one's attractiveness and sexuality and general ease with women.

The basic question is, "what makes a man a catch, and how do women know that he is a catch?" Sexually speaking, at least. Be and act like a catch, and the women around you will respond accordingly. 

For example, I was always an incorrigible flirt. Flirting, for me, is a fun and playful way of interacting socially, as well as a way for me to keep my 'edge' sharp. 

So when, say, a female server would flirt with me when my wife and I were out, I would always engage (in a light, playful way, not in a weird 'I want to get your number later' kind of way) and show off my charm, charisma, and masterful flirting skills. My wife would always beam with pride (and get all tingly from the thrill) that she was with a guy who could clearly get (and keep for however long) the attention of other women, but whom she knew was going home with her. It was exciting for her, especially since she trusted implicitly that I would actually go home with her afterwards. 

Ester Parel talks about the need for partners to experience separation/differentiation in order to keep desire alive. People often forget who their partner actually is in the world. I was creating that separation/differentiation every time I got into some flirty banter with someone else, whether I realized it or not, and my wife got to experience me as others experience me, from a distance, rather than how she is accustomed to experiencing me. She got to experience me as a 'catch' again, someone who is more than just the same ol' overly-familiar husband she lives and deals with day in and day out. It's like, "Oh yeah - he *is* a pretty attractive guy, isn't he?"

That's an invigorating experience for a lot women.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Yet there are women who wouldn't care if Harrison Ford himself serves them dinner at Popeyes​... And one can improve to be perfect, or be perfect, and nothing changes.

We've been thru this before here. Such dread games work with some women but not with others. Would be nice if it worked everywhere...


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

turnera said:


> Whose fault is that? Like I said, watch SuperNanny. Nearly every episode involves Jo teaching the parents to spend ONE night being hyper-vigilant to making sure those kids go BACK to their beds and wake up in their beds the next morning. Yeah, it's a pain in the ass - for one night. But in the end, the kids give up and accept what the ADULTS tell them to do - stay in their own beds.
> 
> So one of your parents or her sister was the babysitter Saturday? Or was it an actual babysitter? If the latter, then you are not accurate - she DOES let other people babysit, and what this really amounts to is your inability to stand up to your wife, for whatever reason.
> 
> ...


I actually don't expect her to wake up from this. I expect this to be the norm for the rest of our marriage. I'm not naive or stupid enough to believe that waiting things out will work. She'll get done with school... then what? Then she'll get a career and possibly be even more busy and stressed. The kids are a handful at age 3 and 5, but guess what? They'll still be a handful at age 13-15, or 23-25, etc. Being a parent never stops, and will always be an excuse if she lets it be an excuse. 

She will not go to therapy for her lack of sex drive. In her mind, her lack of sex drive is completely healthy and normal. She reads articles written by other moms in this situation, they tell her what she wants to hear, and just accepts her low libido as a fact of life. According to her, the problem is that I expect too much. I watch too much porn and have unrealistic expectations of sex. She seems to have selectively blocked out the fact that prior to having kids, she was actually a very sexually adventurous person. She now seems to view things like oral and anal sex the same way she views getting drunk and puking every weekend... something young people do to get out of their system. Oral sex, even as a manner of foreplay, would really be nice. Anal sex is not really something I feel the need to revisit. 

Her religious upbringing is really starting to show through. Like I said, when I started dating my wife, she was in her rebellious stage. She was 19 years old, on her own for the first time. She renounced religion, started partying, drinking, smoking (cigs) and awakened sexually. I was a major party animal at the time (I was 24), and it just clicked really well. She still doesn't believe in religion at all, but the values she was raised with have shown through. Maybe that's just how she knows to raise our kids that way. She looks down upon sex as a concept with contempt, like it's a crime, or an immature act. She has said before that I need to look into medication to lower my sex drive. 

I actually do need to backtrack a tad on the babysitter comment. For our date last Saturday, the babysitter was her cousins teenage daughter (her parents were also in the house). But since she's a 14 year old girl, we felt the need to pick the kids up by 10. That is the first time somebody other than my parents, her mom or her sister have watched our kids. It's nice to have another option, and I hope we can utilize her more in the future. And as far as the kids not sleeping in our room, I realize I need to be firm on this. It's hard when my wife just lets them come into bed with us in the middle of the night, usually while I'm sleeping. 

I actually am reading No More Mr. Nice Guy, at your suggestion. It really has opened my eyes about who I am as a person in general. I am exactly the type of guy this book is written about. I can honestly say that in my early 20s, there was a 2 year period where I sort of became what this book is describing without really knowing it. This is the only time in my life that I was really successful with women, was during this 2 years. I was this person when my wife met me. Slowly, I changed into a beta male, and I can see that she lost her respect and attraction for me. But not just my wife... I feel like this nice guy attitude has affected my professional life as well. Definitely something to work on. 

I really am going to try to better myself. Lose weight, get into shape, start pursuing hobbies and outside interests again, and overall trying to be a more confident and interesting person. Lately I have no hobbies, and my professional life has kind of been a drag... it probably makes me a pretty dull person to be around. I used to love playing guitar, and had a band with my friends. At the time my wife started dating me, our band was gigging on a fairly regular basis, and for the level we were playing at, we were pretty good and kind of popular in our local area. Guitar playing kind of fell by the wayside when the kids were born. Not sure why, I was just overwhelmed and busy, and the guitar kind of stayed in the corner in it's case. Last Sunday me and my old bandmates (and still some of my best friends) got together to play, and I gotta say for having not played in awhile, we sounded pretty good! But more importantly, it was FUN, it was LIBERATING! I felt like a million bucks after leaving "band practice". I need more of that in my life, and I'm gonna go after it. If she responds to these changes in a positive way, that's great. If not, whatever, I'm still going to better myself for ME. I feel like lately we've both kind of been in a coma after our kids were born, and now that they're older and not as needy, I've kind of woken up from that coma. My wife has not.


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> She does not use the phrase, and I do believe it is borrowed from PUA circles.
> 
> My thought is that they use the term 'dread game' to provoke men into action. Much as many around here try to shake men out of their complacency regarding issues in their marriage (whether it is confronting a cheater, or addressing their wife's bad behavior, or whatever) by trying to get them in touch with their anger.
> 
> ...


Absolutely! I agree with this completely. The problem is that since I've gained weight, I am not really attractive enough to flirt with waitresses, or basically anybody. But this is definitely the right track, and one I plan to get back on!


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

john117 said:


> Yet there are women who wouldn't care if Harrison Ford himself serves them dinner at Popeyes​... And one can improve to be perfect, or be perfect, and nothing changes.
> 
> We've been thru this before here. Such dread games work with some women but not with others. Would be nice if it worked everywhere...


I don't really think those games would work with my wife. She'd see right through it. 

I had a girlfriend though, and man those games would work so well on her, it was almost like playing on "easy mode".


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

turnera said:


> Until I see the specifics, I remain firmly doubtful that OP actually does 90% of housework.


Well you don't really know me, you're just projecting "stereotypical male" onto me. You're right, I don't do 90% of the house work. But I do at least 50%. I live there too, it'd be stupid of me to not do my fair share of work around the house. My level of contribution around the house has literally NEVER been the source of an argument.


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## crocus (Apr 8, 2016)

john117 said:


> Katie, let's revisit in 4 or 5 years when her career pressure and kid activities make once weekly become once monthly...
> 
> Because it's comfortable to her, and tough luck if he disagrees.




There is a point to this, john.
Except---we are hearing his opinion and view of what she is offering.
And "majority" rules, its not duty sex, she initiates, and it doesn't look like it Might in 5 years. So, let's not judge her as if it has already progressed down that path and become as bad as you think.
There is a baseline to grow from. Not dead yet


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

podiumboy said:


> I don't really think those games would work with my wife. She'd see right through it.
> 
> I had a girlfriend though, and man those games would work so well on her, it was almost like playing on "easy mode".


The fact that they don't work is a useful data point of its own actually...

You can discover yourself and it's great, but if I had to wear my semi-professional​ prophet hat I will say she will resent your time alone or playing music. Don't be surprised.

What kind of music?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

crocus said:


> There is a point to this, john.
> Except---we are hearing his opinion and view of what she is offering.
> And "majority" rules, its not duty sex, she initiates, and it doesn't look like it Might in 5 years. So, let's not judge her as if it has already progressed down that path and become as bad as you think.
> There is a baseline to grow from. Not dead yet
> ...


I'm seeing more red flags than a Komsomol May 1st parade. 

Initiate duty sex is a bit of an oxymoron, is it not? 

When literally dozens of men have come to tam and poured their hearts over these same facts, believe me, it feels the same. Deja Vu all over again. 

If she's hell bent in shutting down sex, they'll go from weekly to bimonthly to monthly in a couple years then he'll wonder where did his 30's go.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

podiumboy said:


> Well you don't really know me, you're just projecting "stereotypical male" onto me. You're right, I don't do 90% of the house work. But I do at least 50%. I live there too, it'd be stupid of me to not do my fair share of work around the house. My level of contribution around the house has literally NEVER been the source of an argument.


OK, just for giggles, I have a job for you. On your way home, stop at the drugstore and pick up a poster board and two markers. When you get home and dinner is done and the kids are watching a video, ask your wife to sit down with you at the kitchen table and help you fill out all actions that have to be performed in your home. Write out a full list, all you can think of, no matter how small. As small as throwing away Qtips to as big as cleaning all the floor moulding. One one side, write them all out. With each item, put a D for daily, a W for weekly, a B for biweekly, or an M for monthly next to each one.

Then turn it over and start 'taking responsibility' for all the items on the other side. Keep it up til all items are 'claimed.' 

The purpose of this is to take responsibility for things, so that she is able to 'turn off' her responsibility for everything. Say my H took responsibility for trash. I might see the trash can is full, but I would be able to NOT get uptight about the trash because, since my H has 'taken responsibility' for the trash, and has shown me in actions that he WILL take the trash out, when I see the trash building up, I can allow myself to 'turn off' about the trash and take care of other things. 

Purely psychological. But it needs to be done. Women NEED for men to be responsible for certain things so they can 'turn off' and allow themselves to relax, destress, and even have fun on a date, knowing that other stuff will be taken care of. 

Then turn it over


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## crocus (Apr 8, 2016)

john117 said:


> I'm seeing more red flags than a Komsomol May 1st parade.
> 
> Initiate duty sex is a bit of an oxymoron, is it not?
> 
> ...




Yes if that is her agenda, she may do that. And she isn't here to tell you if you are right.
The flip side of doomsday is missing gratitude for what's in front of you , at the moment. Explore all, beyond generalization based on a one sided story.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

turnera said:


> OK, just for giggles, I have a job for you. On your way home, stop at the drugstore and pick up a poster board and two markers. When you get home and dinner is done and the kids are watching a video, ask your wife to sit down with you at the kitchen table and help you fill out all actions that have to be performed in your home. Write out a full list, all you can think of, no matter how small. As small as throwing away Qtips to as big as cleaning all the floor moulding. One one side, write them all out. With each item, put a D for daily, a W for weekly, a B for biweekly, or an M for monthly next to each one.
> 
> Then turn it over and start 'taking responsibility' for all the items on the other side. Keep it up til all items are 'claimed.'
> 
> ...


I think you might be projecting your own experiences on to me. I don't need to keep a scoreboard to know that I pull my fair share of the weight around the house. If something needs cleaned, I clean it. If something needs fixed, I fix it. If the kids need a bath, I give them one. I don't wait for my wife to do it. I was raised by parents that kept their house absolutely spotless, and while I'm not as anal as they are, I do like a clean house. Why are you so insistent that I am not holding up my end of the household chores? You don't know me and have never been to my house. Believe it or not, there are men who do their fair share of household duties. And not to earn themselves currency to get laid later, but because they're ****ing adults and it's their messy house too!

We have never argued about household duties. She has told me how lucky she is that I am so eager to help around the house, as her sister always complains about how lazy her husband is, and how even though he's unemployed he still never lifts a finger. Even my wife's mother has praised my house cleaning habits, and that's not praise that is easily earned! I don't know what to tell you, but me not helping around the house is not what is killing my wife's sex drive.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Epic LOLZ. Today's chores:

- mail care packages to kids for finals. Spend a lot of time figuring out what you can and can't mail to Switzerland.
- pick up dry cleaning
- complete sanding prep for a 30 ft window wall trim
- bring in trash bins from curb
- do DD1's taxes
- laundry
- wash dishes

Her list:

- microwave leftovers 
- serve leftovers
- 1 hour exercise
- to bed by 9 pm (wakes up early)


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

katiecrna said:


> You seem to have a very strong negative opinion/outlook about your wife's sexuality. You don't care about the quantity of Sex but more the quality? What if she is doing the best she can. What if she is doing what she likes. It seems she is happy with her Sex life and you are the one reading her facial expressions and critiquing her enjoyment based off of how you think she should look and act. But she initiates, so she obviously likes and wants to have Sex with you. It's hurtful to assume it's duty sex and she is just checking you off a list. Why can't you realize and think that she initiates because she wants to have sex with you, and that she enjoys it the way she knows how to enjoy it.
> You are putting these terrible thoughts in your head that she thinks these things about you but it's not coming from her, it's coming from you. It's actually messed up to think about it. You need to relax. She loves you, she loves to have Sex with you. She is a busy women who makes time to have sex with you. Sorry it's not the quality your looking for, but she is doing what is comfortable to her. You can't judge her reaction to Sex and how she acts and assume it's because she doesn't like sex, its duty sex, your a checklist, and she will leave you when the kids grow up. That's crazy.


Sorry, this post kinda got lost in the shuffle today. But I really like this. Nobody else has said anything like this to me. Maybe you're right? This is something I really hadn't considered, but your post has really struck me to my core. The fact that she was researching articles like "how to get my sex drive back after having kids" and things of that nature does show that she cares. You have really given me something to think about, thank you.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

PB, while your trust in her is laudable, the fact remains that she's been exposed to a number of answers regarding getting her drive back. All she had to do was to follow one or more recommendations given online. 

Could it be that upon reading the requisite number of articles she concluded they all say the same thing, just do it. Did she?

Desire is not the same as passion.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

podiumboy said:


> I think you might be projecting your own experiences on to me. I don't need to keep a scoreboard to know that I pull my fair share of the weight around the house. If something needs cleaned, I clean it. If something needs fixed, I fix it. If the kids need a bath, I give them one. I don't wait for my wife to do it. I was raised by parents that kept their house absolutely spotless, and while I'm not as anal as they are, I do like a clean house. Why are you so insistent that I am not holding up my end of the household chores? You don't know me and have never been to my house. Believe it or not, there are men who do their fair share of household duties. And not to earn themselves currency to get laid later, but because they're ****ing adults and it's their messy house too!
> 
> We have never argued about household duties. She has told me how lucky she is that I am so eager to help around the house, as her sister always complains about how lazy her husband is, and how even though he's unemployed he still never lifts a finger. Even my wife's mother has praised my house cleaning habits, and that's not praise that is easily earned! I don't know what to tell you, but me not helping around the house is not what is killing my wife's sex drive.


Her suggestion was meant to help you both. Your wife is as accountable for her share of responsibilities as you are. It's an exercise to get the truth out of what you each are claiming ownership of, so you both agree to be completely transparent. Because transparency builds trust and knocks down pride and resentment.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

john117 said:


> If she's hell bent in shutting down sex, they'll go from weekly to bimonthly to monthly in a couple years then he'll wonder where did his 30's go.


I haven't posted for a while here, but this is true... maybe not "hell bent", but it's just not a priority and she is selfish because she is hurting her husband and she doesn't care. Or she does, but she is too... selfish!

42 days for me since last encounters... there is no reason... we've gone from 18-20 days to 45-50 for no apparent reason... she knows, but she obviously doesn't care. And I'm definitely not going to ask for it! You are young... to be honest, I would get out because it's only going to get worse and, believe me, it's depressing... :laugh:


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

podiumboy said:


> Sorry, this post kinda got lost in the shuffle today. But I really like this. Nobody else has said anything like this to me. Maybe you're right? This is something I really hadn't considered, but your post has really struck me to my core. The fact that she was researching articles like "how to get my sex drive back after having kids" and things of that nature does show that she cares. You have really given me something to think about, thank you.


Very glad to see this. If you foster an "attitude of gratitude" towards your wife, along with quitting porn, I think you will find yourself a much happier, more satisfied person.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> I haven't posted for a while here, but this is true... maybe not "hell bent", but it's just not a priority and she is selfish because she is hurting her husband and she doesn't care. Or she does, but she is too... selfish!
> 
> 42 days for me since last encounters... there is no reason... we've gone from 18-20 days to 45-50 for no apparent reason... she knows, but she obviously doesn't care. And I'm definitely not going to ask for it! You are young... to be honest, I would get out because it's only going to get worse and, believe me, it's depressing...


The numbers above is where PB is headed in a few years. Not in terms of frequency alone but also in terms of attitude. 

It really boils down to how well one's partner can multitask. I have noticed this with women more so than with men, despite the BS we've been fed about women being better at multitasking (hint: I know what I'm talking about).

Multitasking involves task switching, and many people simply do not switch tasks. It's all golf, work, kids, school, but not multiple things at once. To get into the mood, one has to either put everything else away or try to manage intimacy and preparing for Monday's PTO coffee or client meeting or what not. 

Ultimately that's what's starting the low desire cycle. From there, the LD may notice that their life hasn't (yet) come down in flames because they last had sex during the Iowa primary election...






jld said:


> Very glad to see this. If you foster an "attitude of gratitude" towards your wife, along with quitting porn, I think you will find yourself a much happier, more satisfied person.


Gratitude for getting the cold shoulder? Being deprioritized? Whoa. Good plan, clearly not applicable to every case...


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

john117 said:


> Gratitude for getting the cold shoulder? Being deprioritized? Whoa. Good plan, clearly not applicable to every case...


The land of unicorns springs to mind...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Few are getting everything they want in marriage, john. It is a glass half full/half empty approach.

If you let bitterness set in, you may be doomed.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

jld said:


> Few are getting everything they want in marriage, john. It is a glass half full/half empty approach.
> 
> If you let bitterness set in, you may be doomed.


You're correct that very few people have an "ideal" marriage, however even for folks that live in the normal world there is a threshold that needs to be hit for an acceptable marriage.

It's not always half full/half empty. Sometimes is more like "slightly damp"/"pretty much bone dry"


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> You're correct that very few people have an "ideal" marriage, however even for folks that live in the normal world there is a threshold that needs to be hit for an acceptable marriage.
> 
> It's not always half full/half empty. Sometimes is more like "slightly damp"/"pretty much bone dry"


Well, here is a thought experiment. If your wife suddenly died, say of a brain aneurysm, how would you feel?


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

jld said:


> Few are getting everything they want in marriage, john. It is a glass half full/half empty approach.
> 
> If you let bitterness set in, you may be doomed.



I'm not John :laugh: but I see lots of happy people around me... I don't want "everything" from my marriage, but such a basic thing like a "normal" sex life (once a week) would be a good start... maybe I should have left when my children were 8, 5 and 2... that would have been fun.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

jld said:


> Well, here is a thought experiment. If your wife suddenly died, say of a brain aneurysm, how would you feel?


I'm not really sure what that has to do with anything. My wife actually DID have an aneurysm a few years ago, but I got her to the hospital in time to prevent any lasting damage.

My point was not about my marriage in particular. My point is that you can't ALWAYS just accept and be grateful for what you have, because sometimes it's just not a good marriage.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> I'm not John :laugh: but I see lots of happy people around me... I don't want "everything" from my marriage, but such a basic thing like a "normal" sex life (once a week) would be a good start... maybe I should have left when my children were 8, 5 and 2... that would have been fun.


Then do what is necessary to get that happy sex life going in your marriage.

Hint: It probably requires doing things that you do not want or feel you should have to do.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> I'm not really sure what that has to do with anything. My wife actually DID have an aneurysm a few years ago, but I got her to the hospital in time to prevent any lasting damage.
> 
> My point was not about my marriage in particular. My point is that you can't ALWAYS just accept and be grateful for what you have, because sometimes it's just not a good marriage.


And if you had not gotten her there? If you had lost her? How would that change your perspective?

Fozzy, ultimately people stay or leave. You decide which is more worth it to you.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

jld said:


> Then do what is necessary to get that happy sex life going in your marriage.
> 
> Hint: It probably requires doing things that you do not want or feel you should have to do.


Well. Now that we've settled that, we can just shut down the SiM forum. Problem solved.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

jld said:


> And if you had not gotten her there? If you had lost her? How would that change your perspective?
> 
> Fozzy, ultimately people stay or leave. You decide which is more worth it to you.


I don't disagree at all. I've made my choice. My point still stands however that nobody is obligated to be grateful for a lousy marriage. And no, I'm not calling my marriage lousy. Still speaking broadly here. And no, I didn't just call anyone a broad.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> Well. Now that we've settled that, we can just shut down the SiM forum. Problem solved.


How would it settle it? There are all kinds of things to try and consider. Getting those ideas is the value of the forum.

What could be helpful here is a clear designation between threads where people just want sympathy, and where they are open to taking active responsibility for their situation.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> I don't disagree at all. I've made my choice. My point still stands however that nobody is obligated to be grateful for a lousy marriage. And no, I'm not calling my marriage lousy. Still speaking broadly here. And no, I didn't just call anyone a broad.


No one has to do anything. But changing our mindsets can help us feel happier.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

@Fozzy

Look, I'm sorry if you feel I am not being empathetic enough to your feelings. I am sure it has to hurt to feel your sexual needs are not being met.

And my "mind over matter" approach probably only goes so far. Ultimately those underlying feelings of disappointment will probably always linger, unless they are truly satisfied.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

jld said:


> Then do what is necessary to get that happy sex life going in your marriage.
> 
> Hint: It probably requires doing things that you do not want or feel you should have to do.


I don't think there is anything I don't do or I don't want to do... I even wait up late until she gets back from work to cook her a lovely meal... trust me... she even tells her colleagues, who are all jealous... but then, she can't spare 5 minutes for a little encounter with me...


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

jld said:


> @Fozzy
> 
> Look, I'm sorry if you feel I am not being empathetic enough to your feelings. I am sure it has to hurt to feel your sexual needs are not being met.
> 
> And my "mind over matter" approach probably only goes so far. Ultimately those underlying feelings of disappointment will probably always linger, unless they are truly satisfied.


JLD, once again, I was not speaking about my own marriage here. You had made the point that people should be grateful for what they have. I made the point that not everyone has a marriage that's worth being grateful for. Some people are in abusive relationships. Some people can't divorce for financial or religious reasons. Some people who read this website are likely in countries that won't ALLOW them to divorce. Not all marriages are a glass half full situation that you can rationalize your way through to happiness.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> I don't think there is anything I don't do or I don't want to do... I even wait up late until she gets back from work to cook her a lovely meal... trust me... she even tells her colleagues, who are all jealous... but then, she can't spare 5 minutes for a little encounter with me...


Do you have a thread? I feel like we should probably get back to pb here.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> JLD, once again, I was not speaking about my own marriage here. You had made the point that people should be grateful for what they have. I made the point that not everyone has a marriage that's worth being grateful for. Some people are in abusive relationships. Some people can't divorce for financial or religious reasons. Some people who read this website are likely in countries that won't ALLOW them to divorce. Not all marriages are a glass half full situation that you can rationalize your way through to happiness.


Nope, they're not.

But it sounds like pb is finding some help with that approach.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

jld said:


> Do you have a thread? I feel like we should probably get back to pb here.


I haven't had a thread for ages... there's nothing to add. Nothing has changed. In fact, I'm not sure why I'm "regurgitating" this stuff... >


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

podiumboy said:


> I don't really think those games would work with my wife. She'd see right through it.
> 
> I had a girlfriend though, and man those games would work so well on her, it was almost like playing on "easy mode".


'Dread game' (or anything else that increases your attractivenss or provokes desire in others) should never be done in an attempt to change someone else. It's done for the benefit of the man, period. Anything else will be seen as manipulation and will likely have the opposite effect from what you would want.

Your goal is to improve your sex life by becoming a 'catch' again. Whose 'catch' you ultimately become is not your concern.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> 'Dread game' (or anything else that increases your attractivenss or provokes desire in others) should never be done in an attempt to change someone else. It's done for the benefit of the man, period. Anything else will be seen as manipulation and will likely have the opposite effect from what you would want.
> 
> Your goal is to become a 'catch' again. Whose 'catch' you become is not your concern.


Any morally questionable approach could have unintended consequences . . .


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> Few are getting everything they want in marriage, john. It is a glass half full/half empty approach.
> 
> If you let bitterness set in, you may be doomed.


You're right. Don't let a 95% / 5% marriage bother you. Maybe I should switch my Ray-Ban sunglasses to...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> You're right. Don't let a 95% / 5% marriage bother you. Maybe I should switch my Ray-Ban sunglasses to...


Those are cute!


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

jld said:


> Any morally questionable approach could have unintended consequences . . .


If you remove the idea of changing someone else (i.e., manipulation), how is it morally questionable? You aren't trying to get anyone else to do anything. You are doing you.

If a man is committed to having a vibrant sex life, he needs to become as attractive as possible to as many women as possible in order to have a chance at fulfilling that commitment. 

Focusing on trying to make a specific woman attracted to him isn't fair to the woman and is will likely to lead to frustration for him. 

You can't control other people, only your own actions.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> Those are cute!


They work well too


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> If you remove the idea of changing someone else (i.e., manipulation), how is it morally questionable? You aren't trying to get anyone else to do anything. You are doing you.
> 
> If a man is committed to having a vibrant sex life, he needs to become as attractive as possible to as many women as possible in order to have a chance at fulfilling that commitment.
> 
> ...


I would not feel comfortable with a man who tried to attract me by trying to attract other women. Why can't he attract me by his solid character and attentiveness to me?

It does not sound like pb's wife would feel comfortable with the dread game approach, either.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I wouldn't want to change myself to be more attractive to women - that seems weak somehow. I might (and in the past did ) change myself for my own sake because I didn't like the person I was.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

uhtred said:


> I wouldn't want to change myself to be more attractive to women - that seems weak somehow. I might (and in the past did ) change myself for my own sake because I didn't like the person I was.


If you want to have sex, you're going to have to be attractive to women. That is just how the game works.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> If you want to have sex, you're going to have to be attractive* to women*. That is just how the game works.


To *your* woman.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

jld said:


> I would not feel comfortable with a man who tried to attract me by trying to attract other women. Why can't he attract me by his solid character and attentiveness to me?
> 
> It does not sound like pb's wife would feel comfortable with the dread game approach, either.


It's not about trying to attract other women. It's about being a 'catch' such that you have options and aren't focused on trying to get one specific person to engage with you the way you wish.

Who is more attractive to most women - the man who has few (if any) options so he has to take whatever he can get, or the man who has many options but *chooses* to be with the special woman of his choice? Who is the better prospect for a healthy relationship?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> It's not about trying to attract other women. It's about being a 'catch' such that you have options and aren't focused on trying to get one specific person to engage with you the way you wish.
> 
> Who is more attractive to most women - the man who has few (if any) options so he has to take whatever he can get, or the man who has many options but *chooses* to be with the special woman of his choice? Who is the better prospect for a healthy relationship?


It is not a marketing game, Dazed. It is about creating an emotional connection.

What you are advocating is superficial and is likely to give superficial results.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

jld said:


> It is not a marketing game, Dazed. It is about creating an emotional connection.
> 
> What you are advocating is superficial and is likely to give superficial results.


Emotional connections are important. They also are not sufficient for sexual attraction. Emotional attraction and sexual attraction are separate phenomenon, otherwise we would want to sleep with close friends (or, worse, family members) with whom we are emotionally connected simply by virtue of having that connection.

You can experience love without experiencing desire, and desire without experiencing love.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> Emotional connections are important. They also are not sufficient for sexual attraction. Emotional attraction and sexual attraction are separate phenomenon, otherwise we would want to sleep with close friends (or, worse, family members) with whom we are emotionally connected simply by virtue of having that connection.
> 
> You can experience love without experiencing desire, and desire without experiencing love.


Yes, there needs to be sexual attraction. But if it was once there, I believe it can be there again . . . without superficial games.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

jld said:


> Yes, there needs to be sexual attraction. But if it was once there, I believe it can be there again . . . without superficial games.


Making oneself as sexually attractive as possible - making oneself into a 'catch' - is not a game. It's a requirement if one wants a passionate sex life.

You can argue that being sexually desirous of someone because of, say, how they look is superficial. That won't change the fact that people are sexually desirous of good-looking people and sexually repulsed by ugly people. Desire is not something that can be provoked rationally.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> If you want to have sex, you're going to have to be attractive to women. That is just how the game works.


Within the target population and subject to your current conditions.

If you're in your late 50's and targeting 30's and early 40's women, my Mini Cooper isn't going to cut it. But if you're targeting late 40's to late 50's, you my get the awhhhhhh cute comment which would work...

The premise isn't flawed per se, but it assumes the LD partner cares about sex but not with you. That is applicable in many cases but by the time one reaches tam it's generally too late for that.

There's a reason people my age and older run the world. It's called Experience. And experience tells us they aren't going to fall for it.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> Desire is not something that can be provoked rationally.


I have to disagree with you there- I'm like MANY other women who feel desire most when my emotional needs are met. It's rational to say then that I desire sex most when I'm receiving affection, engaging in intimate conversation, and spending lots of time with my husband.

As for physical attraction, yes, it's a need for me too, but it isn't going to stir feelings of lust all by itself.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> There's a reason people my age and older run the world. It's called Experience. And experience tells us they aren't going to fall for it.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> It's not about trying to attract other women. It's about being a 'catch' such that you have options and aren't focused on trying to get one specific person to engage with you the way you wish.
> 
> Who is more attractive to most women - the man who has few (if any) options so he has to take whatever he can get, or the man who has many options but *chooses* to be with the special woman of his choice? Who is the better prospect for a healthy relationship?


It's both.

My "person of interest" decided to join a gym and diet. She's lost a lot of weight. She does fun stuff like community theater with a decidedly racy theme. She's an incredibly fun person to be around. She's an adventurer, headed off to teach college in China for the summer. 

It's not all sex that we crave. It's someone who can drink a half bottle of my favorite Moldova wine and go on stage, because doing the show without, ehem, encouragement, is a bit awkward 🙃


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Jessica38 said:


> I have to disagree with you there- I'm like MANY other women who feel desire most when my emotional needs are met. It's rational to say then that I desire sex most when I'm receiving affection, engaging in intimate conversation, and spending lots of time with my husband.
> 
> As for physical attraction, yes, it's a need for me too, but it isn't going to stir feelings of lust all by itself.


I largely agree with this. 

I do think I feel attraction to my husband even when he is not completely filling my emotional needs, though. I really am attracted to him, even just on a physical level.


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## _anonymous_ (Apr 18, 2016)

podiumboy said:


> Typical story; great sex while we were dating, honeymoon phase, throughout her first pregnancy, right up until our first was born. Things tapered off a little bit, but I still feel our sex life was as good as it can be with a new baby. Then our 2nd/youngest was born 3.5 years ago. We waited the appropriate amount of time to resume sexual activity after the birth, but it was never the same after that.


Man, wish I had this trajectory for my own marriage. *envy* If you really had "good sex" before kids, she has likely just lost her desire for it. I would guess that after having kids, woman tend to feel differently about sex. Whether it's a painful child birth or all of the work associated with raising kids, sex can be easily associated with these things, hence her decreased desire. To your point, she is likely not cheating.

Maybe I'm extrapolating my own experience, but I think fighting with a wife who loses the desire for sex is a lost battle. Think of the typical wife as a vending machine; you put enough coins in, and out comes a snack. This is a well-functioning marriage, almost founded on the principles of capitalism: being rewarded for work. In this analogy, coins are anything that increases you wife's favor (back rubs, doing chores, helping out extra with the kids, etc.). Marital strife arises with wives that are like broken vending machines; you put in more coins, but the damn mechanism that releases your snack gets stuck. You put in more coins, only to your increased frustration. This is work, without reward. 

My advice, especially since you have kids, is to initially put off ideas of divorce or separation as a fix for this problem. Instead, talk to your wife about the good ol' days, where you two were having frequent sex; tell her you miss those times, and want to have things be more like old times, even though kids are in the picture now. Maybe she'll strike a compromise with you, or maybe she won't. 

If she does compromise, good for you, to the extent that "sex on compromise" can actually be enjoyable (the real benefit from sex is a wife's willful participation, versus halfhearted consent). If she doesn't compromise, maybe try coping with less sex than you want by filling up space with wholesome things--friends, families, and hobbies. Sex therapy or marriage counseling are good options too.

Some of the biggest challenges with tolerating a lacking sex life are psychological versus physical. For me, the ideas that "other women than my wife" enjoy sex, "men my age" are getting more sex, and so forth, just kill me. They kill me more so than my biggest urges for sex ever can. Indeed, urges for sex come and go, but the feelings of wasted youth linger. These comparisons I make (and that others surely make) are ultimately unhealthy if my relationship cannot be changed; they will rob me of the joy that I can glean from my marriage--joys that I should glean. The point is, if one's goal is to maximize the goodness of his or her present relationship over its remaining life, one must do away with negative thinking (and doing) that opposes this very objective.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

Jessica38 said:


> I have to disagree with you there- I'm like MANY other women who feel desire most when my emotional needs are met. It's rational to say then that I desire sex most when I'm receiving affection, engaging in intimate conversation, and spending lots of time with my husband.
> 
> As for physical attraction, yes, it's a need for me too, but it isn't going to stir feelings of lust all by itself.


That's why I don't discount emotional connection entirely. It can be, and often is (especially for women), an important component of a passionate sex life. It allows one to feel free and safe in their sexuality.

But emotional connection is by no means sufficient for most people (otherwise we would desire anyone with whom we feel a deep emotional connection). 

I would argue that focusing on emotional connection and diminishing/disregarding sexual arousal is what leads to 'duty sex.' Women (or men) who have sex with their partner because they love them, want to be close to them, and want to meet their needs, but otherwise may not be all that interested in sex with their partner.

Most men (and women, too, I'm guessing) want to feel *desired*. They want to feel like their partner *craves* them sexually, that their partner just can't keep their hands off of them. That's why many men love it when their partner enthusiastically initiates sex and loses herself in her own pleasure.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> That's why I don't discount emotional connection entirely. It can be, and often is (especially for women), an important component of a passionate sex life. It allows one to feel free and safe in their sexuality.
> 
> But emotional connection is by no means sufficient for most people (otherwise we would desire anyone with whom we feel a deep emotional connection).
> 
> ...


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Jessica38 said:


> I have to disagree with you there- I'm like MANY other women who feel desire most when my emotional needs are met. It's rational to say then that I desire sex most when I'm receiving affection, engaging in intimate conversation, and spending lots of time with my husband.
> 
> As for physical attraction, yes, it's a need for me too, but it isn't going to stir feelings of lust all by itself.


I think you are describing how you wish it was rather than how it is. Likely you will feel feelings of lust for the physically attractive guy, but you will shut those down if you do not know enough about his character to be confident that pursuing him would not involve excessive risk.

Similarly, you might not feel lust when you see a less physically attractive guy, but if you get to know him you might find yourself open to feeling lust for him because you know he is "safe" and will meet your emotional needs. But that tends to be reactive / responsive. Most likely he feels lots of lust for you, and you allow his lust to fuel the partnership since he is "nice" and meets your needs. That is not your lust you are feeling, it is his.

Still in his interest to work on his body, career, etc. to trigger additional lust in you. Because too much safety kills lust. So he needs to work to keep your lust and your openness to his lust going.

Just like women need to do more work over time as his testosterone decreases and his lust becomes less urgent. Wait, I never had to touch you to get you hard before, don't you still find me attractive? This "game" works both way. Just at different times in different ways.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Holdingontoit said:


> I think you are describing how you wish it was rather than how it is. Likely you will feel feelings of lust for the physically attractive guy, but you will shut those down if you do not know enough about his character to be confident that pursuing him would not involve excessive risk.
> 
> Nope, I can honestly say this is how it is for me. I desire sex most when there's an intimate and emotional connection, and I've read that many women need an emotional/intimate connection to desire sex. I've also read that men need sex to feel emotionally connected, and that's often an issue in many marriages. She doesn't desire sex because she isn't feeling connected outside the bedroom, and he's not connected outside the bedroom because he isn't getting sex.
> 
> ...


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## crocus (Apr 8, 2016)

In Absentia said:


> I haven't posted for a while here, but this is true... maybe not "hell bent", but it's just not a priority and she is selfish because she is hurting her husband and she doesn't care. Or she does, but she is too... selfish!
> 
> 42 days for me since last encounters... there is no reason... we've gone from 18-20 days to 45-50 for no apparent reason... she knows, but she obviously doesn't care. And I'm definitely not going to ask for it! You are young... to be honest, I would get out because it's only going to get worse and, believe me, it's depressing... :laugh:




I regret to wonder if TAM member stats show it will get worse in the future that would suggest everyone is following advice that produces such results. But it's more likely human nature to give up on such a personal hurtful subject and it's easier to believe the doom then not to. Like there is some truth to the concept that a man is less of a man when he's not getting laid. He isn't. Just so you know.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

crocus said:


> Like there is some truth to the concept that a man is less of a man when he's not getting laid. He isn't. Just so you know.


If he is physically capable and she is physically capable then he IS less of a man if he's not getting laid.

And I say that as a man who is not getting laid.


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## crocus (Apr 8, 2016)

Holdingontoit said:


> If he is physically capable and she is physically capable then he IS less of a man if he's not getting laid.
> 
> 
> 
> And I say that as a man who is not getting laid.




Apologies, if it's true for you I'm so very sorry. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

It's only true if you let it be.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

crocus said:


> Like there is some truth to the concept that a man is less of a man when he's not getting laid. He isn't. Just so you know.



Personally, I never felt less of a man because of it. It's just a painful journey of acceptance that what you had before is gone. It takes time. There is no solution. I've done my best, I've made mistakes. Nothing has worked, time to take stock and change focus in your life...


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

john117 said:


> It's only true if you let it be.


It is how I want it to be. That is my measuring stick. I fail. If you haven't figured out that I want to fail, you haven't been paying attention.


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## crocus (Apr 8, 2016)

Holdingontoit said:


> It is how I want it to be. That is my measuring stick. I fail. If you haven't figured out that I want to fail, you haven't been paying attention.




Nice work, victim!
I'm not judging you for it either, it's your life and you need to do whatever it is. It's gotta be terribly painful though, and so I feel for you. Hugs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

I usually come to accept things the way they are. That my wife is Low Drive, and while she's trying the best she can, the best she can muster is what most people would consider incredibly reserved and lacking passion. I accept this and just think about my wife's other great qualities. 

Then I hear something that triggers my feelings on this issue. I hear a story about a wife who never lost her interest in sex. I hear men say "Man, after they hit 30 they just wanna **** all the time!" My friends in new relationships talk about how they get laid twice a day sometimes. My wife's sister still gives her husband blowjobs, even though he's verbally abusive, an unemployed alcoholic and a terrible father to their kids. The thing that really gets me upset is when I read about cheating husbands whose wives just want to bang them every single day, as a way of re-bonding, competing with the AP or marking their territory. The very idea of that makes me ill, that these cheating pricks are actually getting rewarded for their behavior with great sex from their wives (and probably also still from the AP on the side), and I have always been 100% faithful and overall supportive, and I get "might as well get this over with" sex. I will never cheat, so I'll never be in that situation, but it really pisses me off. 

I certainly feel like less of a man when ****ty alpha-male men like my brother in law get it all the time, and these cheating *******s get to have their cake and eat it to.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

podiumboy said:


> I usually come to accept things the way they are. That my wife is Low Drive, and while she's trying the best she can, the best she can muster is what most people would consider incredibly reserved and lacking passion. I accept this and just think about my wife's other great qualities.
> 
> Then I hear something that triggers my feelings on this issue. I hear a story about a wife who never lost her interest in sex. I hear men say "Man, after they hit 30 they just wanna **** all the time!" My friends in new relationships talk about how they get laid twice a day sometimes. My wife's sister still gives her husband blowjobs, even though he's verbally abusive, an unemployed alcoholic and a terrible father to their kids. The thing that really gets me upset is when I read about cheating husbands whose wives just want to bang them every single day, as a way of re-bonding, competing with the AP or marking their territory. The very idea of that makes me ill, that these cheating pricks are actually getting rewarded for their behavior with great sex from their wives (and probably also still from the AP on the side), and I have always been 100% faithful and overall supportive, and I get "might as well get this over with" sex. I will never cheat, so I'll never be in that situation, but it really pisses me off.
> 
> I certainly feel like less of a man when ****ty alpha-male men like my brother in law get it all the time, and these cheating *******s get to have their cake and eat it to.


You are not less of a man. Any cheating man certainly does not seem like more of a man to me.

Once your wife hits perimenopause (between 35 and 45), she likely will have increased drive. 

Have you tried to tap into her fantasies? Do you know what they are?


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

jld said:


> You are not less of a man. Any cheating man certainly does not seem like more of a man to me.
> 
> *Once your wife hits perimenopause (between 35 and 45), she likely will have increased drive.
> *
> Have you tried to tap into her fantasies? Do you know what they are?


Potential misinformation there:surprise:

Just as likely to get worse . My wife had 2 or 3 of these mythical surges over about 10 years that lasted a week max each. Do not put off what can be fixed today under the assumption that it will get better in a few years. Other than being reasonable for a very few years around childbirth.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

anonmd said:


> Potential misinformation there:surprise:
> 
> Just as likely to get worse . My wife had 2 or 3 of these mythical surges over about 10 years that lasted a week max each. Do not put off what can be fixed today under the assumption that it will get better in a few years. Other than being reasonable for a very few years around childbirth.


Lasts much longer than a week for some of us. Try years.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

For some no doubt. It's just not exact'y 'likely' and perhaps less likely if you've spent a decade and a half with minimal drive as a baseline.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

podiumboy said:


> I usually come to accept things the way they are. That my wife is Low Drive, and while she's trying the best she can, the best she can muster is what most people would consider incredibly reserved and lacking passion. I accept this and just think about my wife's other great qualities.
> 
> Then I hear something that triggers my feelings on this issue. I hear a story about a wife who never lost her interest in sex. I hear men say "Man, after they hit 30 they just wanna **** all the time!" My friends in new relationships talk about how they get laid twice a day sometimes. My wife's sister still gives her husband blowjobs, even though he's verbally abusive, an unemployed alcoholic and a terrible father to their kids. The thing that really gets me upset is when I read about cheating husbands whose wives just want to bang them every single day, as a way of re-bonding, competing with the AP or marking their territory. The very idea of that makes me ill, that these cheating pricks are actually getting rewarded for their behavior with great sex from their wives (and probably also still from the AP on the side), and I have always been 100% faithful and overall supportive, and I get "might as well get this over with" sex. I will never cheat, so I'll never be in that situation, but it really pisses me off.
> 
> I certainly feel like less of a man when ****ty alpha-male men like my brother in law get it all the time, and these cheating *******s get to have their cake and eat it to.


So have you read No More Mr Nice Guy yet?

Why not?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

uhtred said:


> I wouldn't want to change myself to be more attractive to women - that seems weak somehow. I might (and in the past did ) change myself for my own sake because I didn't like the person I was.


This shows a lack of comprehension of the bigger picture, as well as knowledge of psychology and sociology. 

What were you like when you met your wife? What did you do? Did you just come home from work, talk to her for about 10 minutes, surf the web or play video games, and watch tv? 

I doubt it. I highly doubt ANY woman would continue to date you if you did such things. Most likely, you took her out. You asked her about her day, her job, her aspirations, her pitfalls, her family and friends. You tried out new things like new restaurants, new sports, new friends, new groups, new types of foods, etc. You may have even cooked dinners for her.

In other words, YOU PAID ATTENTION TO HER. Without kissing her ass. Without doing all the chores. Without spoiling her with presents or otherwise trying to buy her off. 

You still had your own life, your own friends, you played sports or did video games or read books...you just made sure your time spent was at least equal, if not more focused on her. And if she pissed you off - you let her know. You didn't just suck it up and hope she would treat you better.

What I just described is the REAL alpha man. Not the 'sh*tty alpha man' you brought up. Women aren't attracted to *******s, at least not for long. They ARE attracted to men who don't put up with sh*t. Who let the woman know when she's being selfish, and let her know he won't put up with it for long - that he has other options if she's not interested. But such men ALSO have to do what attracted her in the first place - dates, conversation, new stuff, having fun, being INTO her...while still making it clear that he will NOT accept being at the bottom of her totem pole.

That's the kind of man women feel desire for. No More Mr Nice Guy. Married Man Sex Life Primer.

Bottom line, this DOES require change. But not a change of who you are. A change BACK to who you were when you attracted her and got her into bed in the first place.


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

turnera said:


> This shows a lack of comprehension of the bigger picture, as well as knowledge of psychology and sociology.
> 
> What were you like when you met your wife? What did you do? Did you just come home from work, talk to her for about 10 minutes, surf the web or play video games, and watch tv?
> 
> ...


I think this is all true. Before I met my wife, I was this guy. A little backstory is needed; from age 19-21 I dated this girl that I was certain I was going to marry. She was very religious, as was her family. While she was sexual, she didn't drink, didn't party, didn't do anything of that sort. I spent my 21st birthday at a church function and never had a drop of alcohol for 6 months after that, until she broke up with me. Her reasons for ending things were that she didn't think I had a future, and that she received a tip that I sometimes smoked cigarettes socially, which was true. My whole identity was suddenly torn from me. I decided to swear off women. At first, it was just something I told myself to make me feel better, to feel like I was somehow in control of the situation. I had lonely nights, went on a couple dates with girls I didn't really like out of desperation. 

Then after about 6 months of being single, I reached a new plane of existence. I truly didn't give a ****. I had no anxiety about talking to women or dating, because I just didn't care. I had no problem approaching a woman I liked. If she liked me that was cool, but if not I really didn't care at all... my life was going to be just fine either way. I became exactly what you described in that scenario... a true alpha male. I spent all of high school/college up to that point trying to be a nice guy, but then I finally realized... you can be nice and respectful to a woman and still have sex with her. Once I figured that out, I don't mean to brag, but it was like I was playing on "easy mode". I didn't sleep with every girl who offered, either. But I spent 2.5 years completely unattached. Sometimes I'd go months without any female attention at all, and then in the span of one month I got with 5 different girls. I was too busy working, hanging out with friends and playing in a band to worry about dealing with some girl. 

I remember this one time on my 23rd birthday, I was at some Irish pub. I got to talking to a 32 year old woman, we were kinda hitting it off. The topic of my friend's recent bachelor party came up, and I mentioned that we had gone to a strip club. She said "I'm gonna stop you right there, you were doing really good with me until you mentioned that you went to a strip club. That's a huge turn off." I responded "well whatever, it just seemed relevant to the conversation, but I don't really care anyway. Have a good night." Then I walked away, went back to my friends and didn't give her a 2nd thought. She actually came back to me, apologized for "acting like a *****" (her words), we made up and she gave me her number. I never called her, didn't care. When I look back now, I think I really had life more figured out then than I do now at 35. 

I was still very much in this phase when I met my wife a year later when I had just turned 24. Her friends warned her that I was a bit of a player, but I think that turned her on. I didn't really consider myself a player, I was kind of the anti-player. Most of the success I had with girls was that certain ones responded to my honesty. "Hey, I'm into you, but if you don't feel the same way, then whatever, I'll live." That attitude drove the women crazy. But I started going out with my wife, and the rest is history.

Not really sure how this applies to my current situation with my wife, but I was more just re-affirming what you were saying by sharing my own experiences. Maybe if I acted like I used to act, my wife would find me attractive again (though I'd also have to lose some weight to look like I did back then). But my mind is in such a different place now. I have a wife, kids, financial obligations and a busy career to worry about, and that kind of takes over my mentality. I always try to give that advice to young men... just don't give a ****. Most don't know what I'm talking about.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I was a bad person in high school. I realized it and when I went away to college, I used it as a fresh start and created a new personality for myself. I didn't to it to attract girls, I did it because I wanted to be someone else for *me*. 

When I met my future wife we were both students starting at college. I was poor, and it showed in my clothes. She was well off, if not really wealthy. Most of our lives were wrapped around our schoolwork. Dates were limited by time and money - a nearby sandwich shop was about the limit. At that time she really didn't understand poverty, it took her a while to realize that I didn't buy her flowers because that would have meant several days food money, not because I didn't care.

We dated on an off for years until she finished here advanced degree, I was still a PhD student - still poor but we got married anyway. Lived in a small apartment. I worked insane hours - probably 80 hours a week average for a couple of years. She had a real job so we were no longer poor, but not wealthy. 

When I got out of school I had a lot more money, and a lot more time. I spent both with her. Over time my income and job status increased. The range of things we could afford to do together did so too. We still spend a lot of time together. Over time I've picked up new non-work skills - I'm a pilot among other things. She has her skills and hobbies.

I have never changed myself to be attractive to her or any other woman. She loves me for who I am. I love her for who she is. 

Still she doesn't want sex - that seems innate in her, not something that will change. 









turnera said:


> This shows a lack of comprehension of the bigger picture, as well as knowledge of psychology and sociology.
> 
> What were you like when you met your wife? What did you do? Did you just come home from work, talk to her for about 10 minutes, surf the web or play video games, and watch tv?
> 
> ...


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

turnera said:


> So have you read No More Mr Nice Guy yet?
> 
> Why not?


I actually am reading it, it's good. I think that kind of thinking could help me on a lot of avenues in my life. But I really don't see it bringing back my wife's sex drive. But I am going to read and implement this book into my life because at this point, being a nice guy isn't really working for me in general.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

podiumboy said:


> Not really sure how this applies to my current situation with my wife, but I was more just re-affirming what you were saying by sharing my own experiences. Maybe if I acted like I used to act, my wife would find me attractive again (though I'd also have to lose some weight to look like I did back then). But my mind is in such a different place now. I have a wife, kids, financial obligations and a busy career to worry about, and that kind of takes over my mentality. I always try to give that advice to young men... just don't give a ****. Most don't know what I'm talking about.


What you're saying is you weren't needy. Which is good. Even once you're married, you should never be needy. Goes back to caveman days: women NEED and DESIRE strong men - physically for protection and mentally for character.

That said, I think you're not quite getting the whole picture. If you read No More Mr Nice Guy, you'd understand I am NOT talking about being a player or someone who's willing to ditch a girl if she doesn't respond. I'm talking about a man who's committed to the woman but who still values himself enough not to turn into a doormat. This includes doing the stuff I talked about earlier - weekly dates, talking to her about HER stuff, sharing chores and child rearing, making her feel special - but ALSO making it clear to HER that you won't continue meeting HER needs if she doesn't care about YOURS. That's how a man appears strong in a marriage, an alpha male. Not just some rude jerk who'll walk away. 

Women respond emotionally to men - or not. The emotion is what makes them want to have sex with you. If she sees you as just another human in the house - no longer as the man who takes her out, cares about her day, makes her heart beat faster - then that component is gone. Sure, it sucks that the man has to include that component to keep getting sex, but that's just the fact of how men and women are different: you have the sex drive, she has the emotional component. For each of you to get what you want, you each have to be aware of each other's Emotional Needs and be committed. In your situation, it's going to require you to show a little more strength, to be more attracted to you. A man unwilling to just accept no sex. 

Which is why I keep telling you that your 'plan' - to just sit and wait her out - DOESN'T WORK. It makes you even weaker, which ENSURES she won't be attracted to you.

If you want to keep giving examples of daily events, we can give you ways to change things.


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## crocus (Apr 8, 2016)

The book will probably help.
I happen to be one of those women who isn't attracted to "needy". I'm also not attracted to partners who dismiss what I'm asking for, or decide they know what I need instead.
Two things can happen.
If you aren't meeting your wife's needs.
She will stop asking YOU to meet them, and get them met some other way. 
She will surpress the need altogether and basically cut off emotions. Resentment builds.
People can't rewire their needs to your view of them. Unless you agree to see it from their side.


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

So as I posted before, following a recent visit to the dermatologist, my wife has been temporarily unable to have sex. It's nothing serious at all, but some incisions were made, and stitches used. This thread is a victim of poor timing, because for the last 2 weeks we haven't even been able to have sex, duty or otherwise. So I've been unable to even try any advice that's been given. 

Today she says that soon she should be healed up and ready to resume sex. She brought it up entirely on her own, very matter of fact like. I said whatever, I'm a patient guy, no problem. It's so bizarre, I don't know of anybody else in my particular situation. She gets literally no enjoyment out of sex, but still seems very dedicated to perform her wifely duty. Like she knows that a regularly laid husband is a happy husband. She really does care, I think, just can't enjoy it. 

Is it wrong that I selfishly wish she would volunteer to give me a BJ or a HJ while she is healing? She used to when she was on her period, and even after the kids were born when we couldn't have sex for 6-8 weeks. I could never ask her to do that... fear of rejection, I guess. Possibly my greatest fantasy is just her voluntarily giving me oral. How ironic, since that's exactly what happened on our 2nd date. Hell, 17 year old me was getting head a few times a week!! That's just not right.


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## neuklas (Jun 13, 2013)

Podium - have you ever declined what you regard as the quickie duty sex? Not spitefully, but more saying, "you're not into it tonight, and I appreciate that you want to please me, but what would please me most is for you to need to be pleased as well. So when you're in the mood to be pleased, come see me, and until then, let's take a rain check."

If you've never done that, why not? What do you think would happen if you did?


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

neuklas said:


> Podium - have you ever declined what you regard as the quickie duty sex? Not spitefully, but more saying, "you're not into it tonight, and I appreciate that you want to please me, but what would please me most is for you to need to be pleased as well. So when you're in the mood to be pleased, come see me, and until then, let's take a rain check."
> 
> If you've never done that, why not? What do you think would happen if you did?


I have turned it down before. I can usually tell when it's going to be an especially uninspired performance. I've never really given her that reason, I've just said "I'm tired tonight, maybe tomorrow" or something like that. It actually does seem to confuse her that I don't readily accept. If I try to voice my concerns about her apparent lack of sexual fulfillment, she gets pissed at me for putting so much pressure on her to act and be a certain way. 

I am going to start saying NO to duty sex, though. Honestly, no sex would be better anyway. 

I have also just completed day 2 of no porn/no masturbation. I'm not trying to quit entirely, but I have realized that I was doing it too much, and need to curb my enthusiasm.


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## crocus (Apr 8, 2016)

podiumboy said:


> We don't just have quickies any more. Sometimes we have sex for so long that I get insecure about the fact that I'm taking too long, am afraid it's not going anywhere since she doesn't give me much feedback, and I fake an orgasm (I think I said this a few posts back). As Our kids are older and more independent, and there's more time and opportunity. She's actually gotten to the point where we'll do 2 positions during sex! (I know that sounds funny, but it's actually an improvement from when I would just bend her over and pound away until I was done, per her request). I guess now that I think about it, she has been trying harder. The foreplay hasn't gotten any better, but the actual sex has. There are really no positions that are off limits. Maybe she really is trying to work back up to it, and I destroyed her confidence.




Have you resolved this yet, or do you still prefer to consider it duty sex and somehow the improvements have been erased?
I



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## neuklas (Jun 13, 2013)

podiumboy said:


> I have turned it down before. I can usually tell when it's going to be an especially uninspired performance. I've never really given her that reason, I've just said "I'm tired tonight, maybe tomorrow" or something like that. It actually does seem to confuse her that I don't readily accept. If I try to voice my concerns about her apparent lack of sexual fulfillment, she gets pissed at me for putting so much pressure on her to act and be a certain way.
> 
> I am going to start saying NO to duty sex, though. Honestly, no sex would be better anyway.
> 
> I have also just completed day 2 of no porn/no masturbation. I'm not trying to quit entirely, but I have realized that I was doing it too much, and need to curb my enthusiasm.


Now you're on to something important - declining without recrimination that which is not acceptable to you. The trick is to do it without spite. Without acrimony. Without self-pity. You are cheerful Podium, making your own life and your own happiness, not defining or grading either by how another person interacts with you. 

When you can get to the point that it doesn't matter to you either way, you will find that it matters a great deal to her. If she still loves and respects you that is. But regardless, you deserve to have that question answered too. 

To the uninitiated, this smacks of punishment or blackmail. It's not and it's improper to think that way. 

Do you tolerate less than full commitment in your professional and financial life? Why should your personal life be different?

Hint - it isn't, but people (men and women) wrongly are indoctrinated to believe it should be. 

And, yes, quit with the porn. When and if it becomes something besides a poor substitute, then resume at will, and with an interested partner next to you.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

podiumboy said:


> So as I posted before, following a recent visit to the dermatologist, my wife has been temporarily unable to have sex. It's nothing serious at all, but some incisions were made, and stitches used. This thread is a victim of poor timing, because for the last 2 weeks we haven't even been able to have sex, duty or otherwise. So I've been *unable to even try any advice that's been given*.


*WTF?!!!!!!!
*

What am I, chopped liver? Or do you just have me on ignore?

Not a SINGLE THING that I've advised you to do has ANYthing to do with having sex. And I've given you PLENTY of advice. Unfortunately, it all requires YOU to ask yourself what YOU are not doing for HER.

You clearly have NO INTENTION of seeing WHY your wife won't have sex with you, especially if it means looking at YOUR actions. SMDH

All YOU care about is having a female by your side who is a sex bimbo who gives YOU pleasure - all that 'head several times a week' and all. 

I feel sorry for your wife.


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## crocus (Apr 8, 2016)

turnera said:


> *WTF?!!!!!!!
> *
> 
> What am I, chopped liver? Or do you just have me on ignore?
> ...




Not only does she have sex with him, it's pretty great, lots of time taken, etc but it doesn't match exactly what he wants. It's a long blog. Might end up in penthouse. (Does that still exist?)


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

turnera said:


> *WTF?!!!!!!!
> *
> 
> What am I, chopped liver? Or do you just have me on ignore?
> ...


You need to settle down, you're being obnoxious and aggressive for no reason. You're so far off base it's pathetic. Literally every part of this post is incorrect.


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## touatitoconsulty (Apr 3, 2017)

turnera said:


> Then what are you doing to make her not so worn out? She's in school full time, studying probably 3 hours for every hour she attends, working part time, and cooking/cleaning/child-caring/doctor visiting/God knows what else. When does she get to turn off?
> 
> Most likely, never. Women don't turn off unless the man steps up and forces them to. 'Here, honey, here's a gift card for the spa; I've got the kids, here's $50 for a nice restaurant, call your friends and go out.' How often does this happen?
> 
> ...


It is like talking different languages but saying same things. So adam and eve are like a bushman and a fashion sweet lady, they do not speak the same language but the could bopefully have the same dress. 

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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

View illness / injury as an opportunity rather than as a burden. When she is physically unable to have sex is the best time to show your love for her. When she cannot even remotely tell herself that you are just doing it to get into her pants. You can bank huge "husband points".


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

podiumboy said:


> I am going to start saying NO to duty sex, though. Honestly, no sex would be better anyway.


If you go this route, understand that any drive she has may be extinguished and your sex life together may never recover.

I think you mentioned before, but you understand her indifference to sex in the same way that you're indifferent about other activities. For example, she may be passionate about something like dancing, shoe shopping, entertaining, whatever, but you don't really care much for it. You may go along because you care about her and want to make her happy, but it's not a passion of yours. What if she put her foot down and said "I'm not accepting duty shoe shopping any more. Either you become passionate about shoe shopping or we don't go shoe shopping at all." Could you make yourself want to go shoe shopping? Eagerly initiate shopping trips? Or would you give up and feel relieved since you didn't really want to go shoe shopping anyway?

You might get better success by showing her how happy you are with her participation rather than being upset it's not up to your expectations. If we think about shoe shopping, what if her face lit up with a smile when you said you'd go with her? What if she said she has such a better time when you're with her and your company makes her have more fun. Even if you never got passionate about shoe shopping, you would likely be eager to keep making her happy. That feedback would likely make you more engaged while shoe shopping, even if you never developed a passion for it. If you can let her know you appreciate what she gives you, she'll enjoy it more because she's getting the satisfaction of making you happy.

I think you realize you have it better than many men in your situation. The most common case is that the wife shuts down completely and will not even participate at all, much less initiate. So you need to proceed delicately or else risk extinguishing what little flame currently exists.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

podiumboy said:


> Literally every part of this post is incorrect.


Here's what I suggested you do, minus the housework, which you swear you do more of:


> Then what are you doing to make her not so worn out? She's in school full time, studying probably 3 hours for every hour she attends, working part time, and cooking/cleaning/child-caring/doctor visiting/God knows what else. When does she get to turn off? Most likely, never. Women don't turn off unless the man steps up and forces them to. 'Here, honey, here's a gift card for the spa; I've got the kids, here's $50 for a nice restaurant, call your friends and go out.' How often does this happen?
> 
> When I was raising DD26, every year for my birthday, I asked for one thing: for him to take our kid and go away somewhere for the weekend. So I could just LIVE in my own home without having to be 'on' for everyone else - worrying about chores and school pleasing hubby and handling appointments and everything else. I was mentally exhausted. All I wanted was to wake up when I felt like it with nobody around; sit around the house and read a book if I felt like it instead of feeling guilty for not playing with the kid or doing what the husband wanted; go out to eat by myself or with a friend if I feel like it; go to a movie if I wanted. I can practically guarantee she is emotionally and physically overwhelmed and exhausted and no amount of a once-a-week date, let alone a once-a-month date, is going to make a dent in that. And do some work and FIND a regular babysitter; pay her more than other people so she stays dedicated to you guys every week; make it worth her while. You don't even have to go out when she comes over; just let her herd the kids while you two go have a picnic or a bath or something. Remember, women want the little things, the relationship things, in order to want sex.
> 
> ...


You just said you've implemented 'all the advice you've been given' and nothing helped; so which of the advice above have you done?


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## crocus (Apr 8, 2016)

touatitoconsulty said:


> It is like talking different languages but saying same things. So adam and eve are like a bushman and a fashion sweet lady, they do not speak the same language but the could bopefully have the same dress.
> 
> Trimis de pe al meu Vodafone Smart 4 max folosind Tapatalk




Yes, it's very difficult when no one truly understands. No one can, really? It isn't your fault. At all. You certainly don't deserve what is happening, it is indeed unjust and it just keeps getting twisted. But you are calm, and still in control. Fully. I'm listening. What can I do for you?


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## crocus (Apr 8, 2016)

crocus said:


> Yes, it's very difficult when no one truly understands. No one can, really? It isn't your fault. At all. You certainly don't deserve what is happening, it is indeed unjust and it just keeps getting twisted. But you are calm, and still in control. Fully. I'm listening. What can I do for you?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Op ...above is meant for you. Just you.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

crocus said:


> Yes, it's very difficult when no one truly understands. No one can, really? It isn't your fault. At all. You certainly don't deserve what is happening, it is indeed unjust and it just keeps getting twisted. But you are calm, and still in control.


Please explain. How is this not 'at all' his fault? He's been given ways to change his relationship, ways to get his wife involved in him again, and he ignores it all; just says 'Oh, I'll just do without sex and wait for her to notice me.'


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## crocus (Apr 8, 2016)

turnera said:


> Please explain. How is this not 'at all' his fault? He's been given ways to change his relationship, ways to get his wife involved in him again, and he ignores it all; just says 'Oh, I'll just do without sex and wait for her to notice me.'




Yes it sounds just as preposterous when I say it and you respond. 
But this isn't about logic. This is all about his perspective. Until his is satisfied, it is more useful to join Fantasy Island. 


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

turnera said:


> Please explain. How is this not 'at all' his fault? He's been given ways to change his relationship, ways to get his wife involved in him again, and he ignores it all; just says 'Oh, I'll just do without sex and wait for her to notice me.'


I haven't ignored anything, but I think you expect me to just flip a light switch and suddenly your advice is working wonders. I agree with most of what you have said, and I'm implementing it into my life, but it's not going to change things overnight. I'm working on it, ease up a bit... DAMN!

I'm not doing without sex to make her notice me. I'm just saying no to "duty sex". I don't know if you've ever made love to somebody that acted like they were just getting it over with, but it leaves you feeling pretty ****ty. I'm just saying rather than initiate sex just to get it done, I'm waiting until the mood is at least somewhat right. I want to have a strongly romantic and emotional connection to my wife, not just sexual. We go on dates as much as we can, and it's usually a lot of fun. I buy flowers and other little gifts on occasion, and she does the same for me. We have been through thick and thin together in our 11 years as a couple... so no, I don't want her to just be my sex doll. 

But you people are right... my wife is trying. She really is. I am lucky in that I have sex at all, as there are wives who just won't do it. And maybe we'll come to that point, and that'll be another bridge to cross.


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## Finwe (Nov 5, 2015)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> If you want to have sex, you're going to have to be attractive to women. That is just how the game works.


There is so much more to sex than being attractive. It needs an emotional, mental, and even spiritual connection.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Fine, all those things ARE what makes a man attractive to a woman.


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## DepressedHusband (Apr 22, 2011)

podiumboy said:


> Might as well share mine. Let me start by saying I really do love my wife, and have NO DESIRE to ever cheat on her or leave her. We've been married 9 years, together 11, and have 2 young kids. We actually have a great relationship, except where sex is concerned.
> 
> Typical story; great sex while we were dating, honeymoon phase, throughout her first pregnancy, right up until our first was born. Things tapered off a little bit, but I still feel our sex life was as good as it can be with a new baby. Then our 2nd/youngest was born 3.5 years ago. We waited the appropriate amount of time to resume sexual activity after the birth, but it was never the same after that. Even though we wouldn't trade anything, going from 1-2 kids was TOUGH, especially on my wife. Suddenly, me pestering her for sex just put me in the same category as the needy children. We ended up mastering the art of the "quickie", because that was all that we had time for. Eventually, all our sex became quickies, at her request. I knew she was stressed, I was happy to be getting anything. I just figured this was a phase that would pass.
> 
> ...




Your wife is a submissive, you need to learn her game, shes bored to tears.


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## Gravel (Apr 18, 2017)

Podiumboy: First of all, it's not your fault. And #1: Female sex drive diminishes with time, next, thank you for posting this, and lastly, you're [email protected]
I know exactly how to feel.
The bad news is it's going to get worse.
I wish I could prepare you for the dark abyss that lies ahead.
I've been when you're at, and as sh*try as you feel, I would trade with you in a heartbeat.
Disregard almost all advice you've received from well-meaning ladies (except that one that recognizes neither of you are getting your needs met). While you think you're getting valuable information from a woman's perspective, you end up with information from a woman's perspective.

It's not the kids.
It's not her job.
It's not the dishes.
It's not your appearance.
It's not your performance.
Its not professional counseling.
And I know how it must piss you off to read some of the advice in those areas.

Your wife just isn't into that anymore.

I was in your shoes and none of those were a factor in our relationship.
I did not know about declining female sex drive. She did not undetrstand my drive.
I did not know we need to woo our partner; that we needed to be Princes to capture the heart of a princess.
A few people have mentioned the book "The Three Marriage Enigmas" I HIGHLY RECOMMEND THIS BOOK.
Kevin Foster does a great job at explaining what it's like for a guy in your shoes.
I shared the book with my wife and told her how much it meant to me.
She read it and said, "You can tell a guy wrote it".
That's why I divorced her.
While sex is important to me, it wasn't important to her. 
I got that. 
Yet we're left with "it's important to me"...unmet.
podiumboy, you not a sicko. You're not a pervert under the influence of pornography. You're perfectly normal.
Replace the word "sex" with words "something important to me" throughout this post. Your heart is broken.

Our marriage had gradually declined SIGNIFICANTLY from what either of us wanted.
I married the woman who made love like a sea otter on the beach, and she married a man who placed her above all else.
We were neither of those.
It took us too long to figure that out.
In the process, we were both becoming more and more frustrated with each passing day.
The two beautiful people who used to sneak away to make love to each other, we're now both having incredibly sad duty sex.
My wife is a beautiful woman and a devout Christian who believes it is wrong to deny your husband sex. 
While initially it sounds like a great deal, it's a slippery slope from 'making your man a priority' to the point when the wife sees it as a demonstration of just how devoted she really is.
Duty Sex became a chore like cleaning the toilet.
I would negotiate. I'll do the dishes, you clean the toilet.
I would compromise. I know how much you don't like cleaning toilet, but I learned this really neat position that allows you get the job done faster. Only to learn the reason it's called the Missionary position.
After a while, I just cleaned the toilet my self.
She received no joy in what I had to offer.
The last time we had sex was over a year ago. It was very painful. Physically and emotionally. Foreplay had been banned long ago, so vaginal Intercourse was more of a rape than longtime lovers becoming intimate with no another.
That, coupled with the sight of your lover staring at the ceiling while saying, "Don't forget, it's Wednesday, take the trash out when you're done"

Good luck podiumboy. 

Explore your options.
One of them is to just accept it.
Try the book. I'll loan you mine.


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## cc48kel (Apr 5, 2017)

I felt this way after kids and I also LOVED when the kids would sleep in our bed (for that reason).. Every now and then my spouse would balk but I ignored it.. Just wasn't in the mood-- it had nothing to do with another guy as I had toddlers at home. I would be patient with her. Keep talking about it, keep up with date nights even if it's a bottle of wine watching a movie at home. And try to get away on weekends here and there without the kids. Maybe a night or two away will help.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

I apologize to those who saw this on another thread. I had to cross-post it here as it is even more appropriate here.

Duty sex is a drag. Even enthusiastic "I'm doing this because I love you" sex can be a huge turn off, even though it is well intentioned. 

Men like to complain about how women are "high maintenance." But truth be told, we're just as high maintenance, but in different ways. We don't just need the physical contact, we crave and need the desire for physical contact from our spouses. In fact, sometimes the latter is even more important, even if it doesn't come to fruition. Anybody can give the former, but the latter sometimes just isn't there which is more crushing than the lack of sex itself. 

*Dan Fogelberg -- Lonely in Love*

Some say that love is its own
Love is its own reward
But I can't help but believe
There's got to be more.
A man needs a woman
To have and to hold
*To love him in body
As well as in soul
I need your desire
Where did the fire go?*
I keep trying to sleep
But sleep won't be mine tonight
There's so much sorrow inside
And baby, I don't know why.
I give you your freedom
I give you my love
I give all I have every time that we touch
I don't know, baby,
Maybe I give too much.
Now I'm lonely in love
Why must I be lonely in love
I'm so lonely in love
Baby why must I be lonely
Why must I be lonely in love.


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## shellybell (May 13, 2017)

Your wife sounds like an amazing woman! I know after I had my kids years ago, I didn't feel much like entertaining my husband either. I was tired, busy, I was overwhelmed. It certainly wasn't a lack of love or affection. 
Had he brought back some romance, taken me out for a beautiful date night, without kids? Maybe a nice hotel after a romantic evening? I think I would have responded quite well to that. It's more about taking the time for each other, and reminding each other WHY you fell in love in the first place. 
You sound like a loving, compassionate man. You're both very lucky to have each other. I'm sure you'll figure it out


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## MartinBeck (Jan 19, 2017)

podiumboy said:


> No, it used to be a regular thing.....
> 
> The last time she did it for me was last year on my birthday, roughly 13 months ago. The thing is, that was the last time I asked. She might be willing to do it again, but I have not asked. She has not offered, and I just can't seem to find the words to bring it up. How can I say it in a way that isn't "I know you work part-time, go to college full time, and raise 2 kids, but could you also please put my **** in your mouth?"
> 
> ...



This one is all on you, buddy. 

It sounds like she's was healthy libido woman who is having the normal stresses and hormonal changes of motherhood and nursing and small children. She is going to have a lower libido for a while, esp if she is breastfeeding. 

But critically, it sounds like she's aware that sex is important in a marriage and it sounds like she is really trying to make an effort to meet your needs. 

If you can't even have the confidence and leadership in your marriage to ask your wife for a blowjob, it's all on you, not her. 

You have the responsibility to be the most attractive person you can be, to help get her back In the mood.
Hit the gym, loose the dad bod, start doing the stuff you used to do when you were single that made you an interesting person. Display leadership, pick restaurants, all that. Read Athol Kay.

She probably has responsive desire now and takes a lot longer to warm up before getting horny. And she's got all the distractions of the world running through her head all the time.

So give her a 20 minute foot rub while you watch some porn, if you guys ever watched porn together before the kid. Give her a long neck rub while she has a glass of wine. Then tell her to put you in her mouth.


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## Huntingdog45 (May 15, 2017)

I could have totally written this about my marriage. Never any effort on my wife's part. We have sex occasionally and it has become routine and almost without any intimacy. I didn’t think sex without intimacy was possible. I was wrong. I would kill for her to show any sign of wanting me. Anything! Just once an indication that there is any physical attraction to me. I almost feel like I have been "friendzoned" in my own marriage. only difference for us is my wife does seem to enjoy sex when we have it. She does have orgasms through foreplay , (she comes first) I try everything to get her attention and....nothing. If I was not making an effort there woudl e NO SEX at all. When is enough enough? 
I keep saying I am going to quit trying. Focus on myself. Keep myself happy and realize that what i think is important no longer is important to her. But I keep trying, and hoping, and getting let down and frustrated. 
I love my wife. If I didn't it would be an easy decision to leave. How long can I keep doing this? The sleepless nights where I lay awake mad and frustrated in bed are taking their toll on my work and my own physical health


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Huntingdog45 said:


> I could have totally written this about my marriage. Never any effort on my wife's part. We have sex occasionally and it has become routine and almost without any intimacy. I didn’t think sex without intimacy was possible. I was wrong. I would kill for her to show any sign of wanting me. Anything! Just once an indication that there is any physical attraction to me. I almost feel like I have been "friendzoned" in my own marriage. only difference for us is my wife does seem to enjoy sex when we have it. She does have orgasms through foreplay , (she comes first) I try everything to get her attention and....nothing. If I was not making an effort there woudl e NO SEX at all. When is enough enough?
> I keep saying I am going to quit trying. Focus on myself. Keep myself happy and realize that what i think is important no longer is important to her. But I keep trying, and hoping, and getting let down and frustrated.
> I love my wife. If I didn't it would be an easy decision to leave. How long can I keep doing this? The sleepless nights where I lay awake mad and frustrated in bed are taking their toll on my work and my own physical health


Please start your own thread and many people here will try to help you.


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

Huntingdog45 said:


> I could have totally written this about my marriage. Never any effort on my wife's part. We have sex occasionally and it has become routine and almost without any intimacy. I didn’t think sex without intimacy was possible. I was wrong. I would kill for her to show any sign of wanting me. Anything! Just once an indication that there is any physical attraction to me. I almost feel like I have been "friendzoned" in my own marriage. only difference for us is my wife does seem to enjoy sex when we have it. She does have orgasms through foreplay , (she comes first) I try everything to get her attention and....nothing. If I was not making an effort there woudl e NO SEX at all. When is enough enough?
> I keep saying I am going to quit trying. Focus on myself. Keep myself happy and realize that what i think is important no longer is important to her. But I keep trying, and hoping, and getting let down and frustrated.
> I love my wife. If I didn't it would be an easy decision to leave. How long can I keep doing this? The sleepless nights where I lay awake mad and frustrated in bed are taking their toll on my work and my own physical health


Hey fellow duty sex sufferer! It's not a fun position to be in! Obviously, since I am the OP, I have little advice to give you. The only thing I've discovered is that you cannot place your self worth on wether your wife wants to have sex with you or not. I was doing that, believing all kinds of bad things about myself. This thread didn't really help me. Lots of people were very nice and helpful, others just told me what a ****ty husband I was, and all the things I was doing wrong. The thing I've realized is that my does love me. She really does, she's made that abundantly clear. She just legitimately has NO interest in sex. It's as if sexuality as a concept is something immature that we were doing in our 20's, and now she's a Mom and a working woman and doesn't have time for such foolishness. I am a good husband and father, and I may not be perfect, but I always put my wife and my kids first. Those are the standards I have set for myself as a man. This lack of sex drive is my wife's problem, not mine. My sex drive is fine. 

I have no updates to offer, really. Sex life has not really improved at all. I'm now 14 months since she last gave me oral sex. I finally got up the nerve to bring this up a few weeks ago. She told me she would be open to doing it "sometimes", but we've had sex maybe 4-5 times since then, and nothing. I told her I would be happy to reciprocate, and she basically told me that I will never perform oral on her again. She does not like it, does not ever want it again. Okay.... We just had sex about an hour ago. She basically said "if you want to have sex tonight, do it now, because I'm tired!" Absolutely ZERO affection or intimacy. She simply pulled her pajamas down, bent over, and it was up to me to get myself hard, and lube myself up. She made no noise, no attempts to pretend to enjoy it, and then as soon as we were done she got pissed at me because I got cum on the blanket. So then she jumps up, runs to the bathroom and throws me a towel, puts her pajamas back on, and goes to bed. It was literally the WORST SEX ANYONE HAS EVER HAD!!! But it counts! I ensures to her that I won't bother her for a few days. That was the most unsatisfying experience I've ever had. 

It seriously makes me think about what it would be like to have sex with another woman. Am I really as unsexy and unattractive as she makes me feel? Am I really bad in bed? I don't think I am, she just doesn't give me ANYTHING to work with. It's like she just wants me to get done as quickly as possible, every single ****ing time. We actually have a good relationship most of the time, we truly do. But it's like once we're in the sex arena, she just becomes a statue, physically and emotionally. But I think things, like wouldn't it be nice to have sex with a woman who actually wants to have sex with me? To hold a woman who is there with me, physically, mentally, and emotionally. To CONNECT with someone on an intimate level. I'm not a cheater... I couldn't do that. I cheated on my girlfriend in high school one time, got a BJ from another girl. It was the worst feeling in the world, and I swore I would never do it again. That was 18 years ago, and I have never been even slightly unfaithful to anybody since then. We talk about it, and she either gets pissed at me for pressuring her, or tells me what I want to hear, that things will change. But they never do. 

I'm done thinking that this is something I can do anything about. I am a good husband. I help around the house, and with the kids. I take her on dates. I go all out for her birthday, mother's day, etc. I work hard to provide for us, financially. I also work hard to make time to spend with my family, because that is very important to me. And she is a wonderful wife, we are a great team. I just need to realize that this is one battle that I'm not going to be able to win. Either her sex drive will come back, or it won't. All I can do is try to be the best I can be, and hope that when her sex drive comes back, that she chooses to have sex with me and not somebody else. Because I won't tolerate that, not even once.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Have you read any of the Athol Kay, "Married Man Sex Life" material that some people have suggested?

One of the keys of improving your sexlife is not accepting bad sex. 

When someone rolls their eyes and says to hurry up and get it over with; you know it's not going to be good.


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> Have you read any of the Athol Kay, "Married Man Sex Life" material that some people have suggested?
> 
> One of the keys of improving your sexlife is not accepting bad sex.
> 
> When someone rolls their eyes and says to hurry up and get it over with; you know it's not going to be good.


What if bad sex is the only way to have sex?

My options are have bad sex, have no sex, or have sex with somebody else and hope that it doesn't suck. All I really want is to have good sex with my wife, but that's not really on the menu. I suppose I could just say "no, we'll wait until another time when you actually want to have sex." The thing is, tonight's bad sex was coming off 12 days of no sex. Things got busy, and then her period was right in the middle. If it's period time, or if my wife has to work that day, anything sexual is off the table. She doesn't miss it when we don't do it for awhile. She does not EVER desire it. She NEVER gets horny. She CAN'T be seduced or turned on... at least by me. My fear is that someday some studly guy will push all the right buttons, and her sex drive will reawaken, only for him. I realize that we've been having sex for 11 years now, and about half of those have been with kids, so our best days are behind us, sexually. It makes me really sad.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Have you read any of the Athol Kay MMSL books and blogs etc?


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

podiumboy said:


> I just need to realize that this is one battle that I'm not going to be able to win. Either her sex drive will come back, or it won't. All I can do is try to be the best I can be, and hope that when her sex drive comes back, that she chooses to have sex with me and not somebody else. Because I won't tolerate that, not even once.


Chances are, her drive won't come back on it's own. There has to be something to change her direction. You mentioned someone new, and that's always a possibility. It's not that the other guy would have better moves, rather it's that it's the new relationship intensity. Likely after a little while, it would fade even with the new guy.

One thing you might want to consider to cuddle more when you go to bed and wake up. But don't look at as a way of getting more sex. Look at it as a way of getting more physical touch--which can help your mental state. It may lead to more sex, but that is a side benefit. The main goal is to create a deeper emotional connection between you both. Often in situations like yours, there is less touching and that can push you farther apart. 

I found in my sexless relationship, the lack of physical contact was a big part in why I felt so depressed. Once I made an effort to cuddle more, it helped me feel better. That was the only reason I was doing it. The pleasing feelings of cuddling are similar to sex (but, of course, it's not the same thing). And cuddling more makes it easier to transition into sex, since it's not like the request is coming out of the blue. If you're already holding each other, it's easier to take the next step. But I must emphasize that if you only are using cuddling as a way to get sex, it probably won't work.

This might be worth a try in your situation since it sounds like everything else is good and you want to make it work out. More cuddling can be a way to make you happier in the relationship, with the possibility that it may lead to more emotionally-connected sex.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Not to confuse or cloud the issue but rather to show different strokes for different folks, my wife is actually more sexually responsive the LESS cuddling and physical affection we have. 

I know that goes against the conventional wisdom and everything we have been brought up to believe but it is true in our case. 

She is not a cuddler or a touchy feely or huggy person in general and if I make affection and cuddling etc too available, it is like it takes away her need for contact and takes the place of sexuality for her. 

If we go days or even a week or two on end with no physical affection, she will often be more sexually responsive or even initiate a sexual encounter. 

Sex is concentrated attention, touch and affection, so sometimes if people are deprived of it (deprived is too strong of a word, but you know what I mean) for awhile, their need for contact and attention will manifest sexually.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

*Big caveat to what I just said.....*

Now a word of warning - if the issue here is an attraction to you issue (why you should read the Athol Kay material) or a relationship connection issue, depriving her of attention and affection etc could very well lead her to just throw in the towel or leave her very vulnerable to the attentions of another man.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

podiumboy said:


> What if bad sex is the only way to have sex?
> 
> My options are have bad sex, have no sex, or have sex with somebody else and hope that it doesn't suck. All I really want is to have good sex with my wife, but that's not really on the menu. I suppose I could just say "no, we'll wait until another time when you actually want to have sex." The thing is, tonight's bad sex was coming off 12 days of no sex. Things got busy, and then her period was right in the middle. If it's period time, or if my wife has to work that day, anything sexual is off the table. She doesn't miss it when we don't do it for awhile. She does not EVER desire it. She NEVER gets horny. She CAN'T be seduced or turned on... at least by me. My fear is that someday some studly guy will push all the right buttons, and her sex drive will reawaken, only for him. I realize that we've been having sex for 11 years now, and about half of those have been with kids, so our best days are behind us, sexually. It makes me really sad.



I'm going to share this with you.....I'll preface it by saying that I don't know if it's a good comparison because my ex and i had a poor relationship on many levels, and he actually did not care if he got duty sex. In fact he was quite happy to do him and turn away.....less effort for him. 

But you're clearly not him. 

So with that in mind take this for what it's worth.

When he took sex that i went along with but clearly didn't want I thought even less of him then I already did.....i thought it was just pathetic. In this sense taking bad sex she doesn't want could be counterproductive.

As in, a giant **** test.

Not saying it's right, only that it could be the case.

Sometimes women will interpret this as you getting your rocks off with a convenient hole. This is a gender communication issue since most of the time men don't see it this way. 

What's the worst that would happen if you just refused bad sex? Turn her away if she shows contempt for it and if she asks why tell her you're not a rapist and sex like this is beneath you.

Not only might she think more highly of you and come to you, but you'll think more highly of yourself. I don't see how what you're getting now is better then your hand even if it doesn't change anything in her.

Maybe as a woman my perspective on that is different.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

lifeistooshort said:


> I'm going to share this with you.....I'll preface it by saying that I don't know if it's a good comparison because my ex and i had a poor relationship on many levels, and he actually did not care if he got duty sex. In fact he was quite happy to do him and turn away.....less effort for him.
> 
> But you're clearly not him.
> 
> ...



This is spot on ^^^^^

Do not accept bad sex. Bad sex will lead to worse sex. Then to virtually no sex when she gets disgusted enough that she can't grin and bear it any more. And by that time you will be so far in the hole that you may be able to dig yourself out. 

If she is clearly not into it, suck it up, let it drop and go do something productive and manly. Do not whine, *****, complain, pout etc. 

Men of value, worth and status do not accept bad sex/pity sex or sex with resentment and bitterness in the background. 

If that means you go with no sex until the issue can be rectified, then so be it. 

And I will ask again - have you read any of the Athol Kay material?? This is all described and outlined in that material.


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## james5588 (Mar 22, 2017)

lifeistooshort said:


> I'm going to share this with you.....I'll preface it by saying that I don't know if it's a good comparison because my ex and i had a poor relationship on many levels, and he actually did not care if he got duty sex. In fact he was quite happy to do him and turn away.....less effort for him.
> 
> But you're clearly not him.
> 
> ...


Wow! Always knew this intuitively, but to see it in black and white is a whole different thing...

Ok. Given, any insights on the right way to turn down "duty sex"? I can imagine that this could be disastrous if handled incorrectly.


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## AussieRN (Mar 28, 2013)

"Let it be passionate, or not at all". Words to live by 

I'm not sure how you would best say no to yours but when mine offers duty sex I just say "No thanks, I'm not interested having my needs or desires fobbed off" (or words to that effect).


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Lovingly. "Hon I love you SO much and my love language is making love you to. So when it's clear you don't really want to do it, I surely don't want to make you. I want it to be special. So let's just wait til another time when you're in the mood, ok?"


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

turnera said:


> Lovingly. "Hon I love you SO much and my love language is making love you to. So when it's clear you don't really want to do it, I surely don't want to make you. I want it to be special. So let's just wait til another time when you're in the mood, ok?"


That would work fine for a couple that has a normal, healthy desire and a generally active sex life but one of them happens to be exhausted or not feeling well etc and "another time when you're in the mood" can be expected in a day or so. 

However for a couple where one of them has lost all interest and lost the desire that, "another time...." will never come. 

In this case, the OP's wife has lost her desire for him and there is some kind of underlying issue that affecting her libido and/or attraction to him. 

Action must be taken to correct this condition rather than simply deffering it until her 'mood' magically reappears some other time.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

... and I don't know if one ever needs to actually "turn down" duty sex as duty sex by it's nature is pretty passive and simply letting someone masturbate with their body so as to shut them up and perhaps even keep them for going out and getting it somewhere else. 

Unless someone is autistic or completely ignorant of human emotion, it's easy to see if someone is into something or not and if some isn't responding sexually and you can tell they aren't aroused and wanting to do it - don't put your penis into them. That is an active and assertive act. 

If they aren't actively participating, go do something else.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

From your posts you both seem to try and divide the duties, etc but zero intimacy from her for over a year.

She's tired, she's stressed, blah, blah, blah , etc is total BS, just women making excuses. Wait a year and it might get better? Bwahshshaha!!! This won't get better and at some point your love you have now will start to fade over time and die unless you like being a celibate monk.

If you're smart you have serious talk now. Real intimacy once or twice a week for @ 15-30 minutes and she can't spare that? Really? 

If you want to stay married fine but demand an open marriage and get someone on the side that doesn't detest having sex with you.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

podiumboy said:


> I have no updates to offer, really. Sex life has not really improved at all. I'm now 14 months since she last gave me oral sex. I finally got up the nerve to bring this up a few weeks ago. She told me she would be open to doing it "sometimes", but we've had sex maybe 4-5 times since then, and nothing. I told her I would be happy to reciprocate, and she basically told me that I will never perform oral on her again. She does not like it, does not ever want it again. Okay.... We just had sex about an hour ago. *She basically said "if you want to have sex tonight, do it now, because I'm tired!" Absolutely ZERO affection or intimacy. She simply pulled her pajamas down, bent over, and it was up to me to get myself hard, and lube myself up. She made no noise, no attempts to pretend to enjoy it, and then as soon as we were done she got pissed at me because I got cum on the blanket.* So then she jumps up, runs to the bathroom and throws me a towel, puts her pajamas back on, and goes to bed. It was literally the WORST SEX ANYONE HAS EVER HAD!!! But it counts! I ensures to her that I won't bother her for a few days. That was the most unsatisfying experience I've ever had.


Sounds like zero progress made. BTW, if she cannot make an honest effort to try to make your sex life mutually enjoyable, then she's a sh!tty wife. She's not a good wife. Maybe she's a great friend and mother, but sucks ass as a wife. Aside from a healthy sex life, you should be able to be vulnerable to your wife and she to you. Based on what you wrote, I don't see that happening. You're at square 1 with zero progress made it seems.

That nite should have been your Waterloo moment. That's when you should have told her no thanks, and that you'll see her when she's ready to make love making a serious priority. Then, if she responded with how she's putting effort into it, you could ask her how she would feel if you just laid on the bed and she had to get you hard and do all the work to have sex with you while you laid there with zero emotion. 

Gross lack of empathy in this marriage.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

podiumboy said:


> Hey fellow duty sex sufferer! It's not a fun position to be in! Obviously, since I am the OP, I have little advice to give you. The only thing I've discovered is that you cannot place your self worth on wether your wife wants to have sex with you or not. I was doing that, believing all kinds of bad things about myself. This thread didn't really help me. Lots of people were very nice and helpful, others just told me what a ****ty husband I was, and all the things I was doing wrong. The thing I've realized is that my does love me. She really does, she's made that abundantly clear. She just legitimately has NO interest in sex. It's as if sexuality as a concept is something immature that we were doing in our 20's, and now she's a Mom and a working woman and doesn't have time for such foolishness. I am a good husband and father, and I may not be perfect, but I always put my wife and my kids first. Those are the standards I have set for myself as a man. This lack of sex drive is my wife's problem, not mine. My sex drive is fine.
> 
> I have no updates to offer, really. Sex life has not really improved at all. I'm now 14 months since she last gave me oral sex. I finally got up the nerve to bring this up a few weeks ago. She told me she would be open to doing it "sometimes", but we've had sex maybe 4-5 times since then, and nothing. I told her I would be happy to reciprocate, and she basically told me that I will never perform oral on her again. She does not like it, does not ever want it again. Okay.... We just had sex about an hour ago. She basically said "if you want to have sex tonight, do it now, because I'm tired!" Absolutely ZERO affection or intimacy. She simply pulled her pajamas down, bent over, and it was up to me to get myself hard, and lube myself up. She made no noise, no attempts to pretend to enjoy it, and then as soon as we were done she got pissed at me because I got cum on the blanket. So then she jumps up, runs to the bathroom and throws me a towel, puts her pajamas back on, and goes to bed. It was literally the WORST SEX ANYONE HAS EVER HAD!!! But it counts! I ensures to her that I won't bother her for a few days. That was the most unsatisfying experience I've ever had.
> 
> ...


The only chance for success that I think you have is to completely banish resentment from your mind. Just refuse to give in to any temptation to feel sorry for yourself. 

Instead, take this all on as a challenge. 

You want your wife to want you rather than tolerate you. Make it your mission to do whatever is necessary to rekindle her interest in you. 
@Jessica38 and @EleGirl have mentioned repeatedly on these boards the need to spend time with a spouse. Jessica said recently that it may take 3 hours of emotionally connecting with a wife (likely on her terms, would be my guess) for her to be interested in 1 hour of sexual activity (is that correct, Jessica?). 

And to get that kind of interest going, I would not be surprised if it initially takes many more hours than that. You have to be in it for the long haul, OP.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I would also advise cultivating an attitude of gratitude, podium boy.

I understand last week's sex was not your ideal. But choosing to express gratitude, and empathy, could soften your wife's heart. 

_"Wife, I'm sorry to have pestered you for sex rather than having inspired it. Inspiring you is going to be my MO from now on. 

You were tired last week, and I was only thinking of myself. 

You do a lot for this family. You raise 4 kids, go to school, and work an outside job. And the last thing that is going to inspire you is my telling you that you owe me sex, and sex specifically according to my standards on top of it.

Anyway, I just would like to apologize for any bad feelings you may have about last week. I don't want to be the source of those feelings. I hope you will feel comfortable sharing any feelings you have with me going forward, on anything. 

You are dear to me, just like the kids are. And I am so grateful to be in this family with you and them. Thank you, my dear wife."_

_Finish with a kiss on the forehead, and go on with whatever you were doing or need to do. The idea is to make a deposit in her emotional bank account without demanding one in return._


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

If you had sex 4 or 5 times in the past 14 months, then she either isn't into you or she has massive psychological issues with sex. Either way, you would be better off refusing to have any sex with her rather than chasing crumbs.

Become the person you want to be. Stop worrying about her ephemeral moods because regardless of her mood you are not going to have sex. Focus on improving yourself for yourself. Hit the gym. Rock it at work. Not to try to entice her but to become proud of yourself. Eventually you can decide whether you want to leave her to seek sex with someone else or stay with her and remain sexless. Ironically, doing this is probably the only way you will ever inspire her to want to have sex with you. Question is whether, when that day arrives, you will want to have sex with her. Good chance you won't. And that is where you need to get. Where you don't much care whether she wants to have sex with you or not.

The person who cares less about the outcome wins every negotiation. Right now she cares less about sex than you do. Time to turn the tables.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

> But it counts! I ensures to her that I won't bother her for a few days. That was the most unsatisfying experience I've ever had.


Counts for what? 

Do you have NO dignity? Wouldn't going off to the living room and taking care of yourself been more satisfying and less humiliating? 

Good grief, man. 

On another issue, why do you have to 'get the nerve' to tell your (supposedly) best friend in the world what you need out of your marriage?


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

turnera said:


> Counts for what?
> 
> Do you have NO dignity? Wouldn't going off to the living room and taking care of yourself been more satisfying and less humiliating?
> 
> ...


I took this's as OP saying "it counts" to her-as though she believes she's fulfilled her duty. The following statement that it was so unfulfilling shows it counts for nothing meaningful to OP.


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## _anonymous_ (Apr 18, 2016)

I'm guessing OP wants passionate sex with his wife for more than pleasure. After all, he can administer pleasure with his own hand. 

Like so many other married guys, OP likely wants to be desired by his wife, wants her to accept him and validate him, wants to feel as though he's meeting her needs, and on and on we go. This is what OP really wants out of sex with his wife...toward the goal of personal happiness. But there's the problem.

OP's entrusting his happiness to his wife, who no longer acts in his interests. In so doing, OP's happiness is no longer within the sphere of his control. He's choosing to suffer from his wife's distorted incentives as she acts in an opportunistic manner, serving herself wholeheartedly and serving her husband halfheartedly, if at all. 

OP, this is on you; you're looking for happiness in the wrong places. You're looking for happiness in someone else. This only leads to your unhappiness, and being so occupied with sex that you overlook the joys of family life. I encourage you to redirect your focus and energies.

Look for happiness from within, over what you can control. Be happy in what you achieve in your career, with your finances, around the house, with your hobbies, or at the gym. Lose expectations over sex; it requires (minimally) consent from another, which intrinsically is beyond your control. Extract the goodness from your family life that's there and readily available, and don't let "duty sex only" deter you from that. 

As the man of the house, set a clear agenda for your family that promotes togetherness and well-being, and do this independent of your wife. As with other things, let her be involved only if she truly wishes to be involved, not just if she consents.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

_anonymous_ said:


> As the man of the house, set a clear agenda for your family that promotes togetherness and well-being, and do this independent of your wife. As with other things, let her be involved only if she truly wishes to be involved, not just if she consents.


The words about focusing on what you can control are wise and well said. However, anything that truly "promotes togetherness and well-being" cannot be done "independent of your wife." That is the very opposite of togetherness. You can focus on what you can control, but since you can't control everything, you can't provide "togetherness" by yourself. If wife isn't into toghetherness, there will be no togetherness. And while one may learn to be (somewhat) happy without it, a lack of participative sex is also corrosive to togetherness. 

Focus on what you can do, but also understand it has limitations.


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## twoofus (Jun 16, 2017)

Have the possibility been considered that there may be some OCD at issue? There seems to be an awful lot about cleaning the house in this thread. What stands out is the oral sex where mouth meets body parts close to anus. Maybe she feels she is no longer clean enough down there and wants you to keep your mouth away? I never have had anyone tell me not to go down there even when she was due a shower LOL. Maybe sex is all a bit yukky for her.
My apologies if this has already been muted.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Bottom line you are now in a sexless marriage.

If you both can't work this out you either move on or open the marriage.

IMO I would not stay in this. Life is to short to spend it with just a roommate


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

OP here... kind of an update.

I feel our relationship is in a better place now than it was when I started this thread. My wife is on summer vacation from school (Thank God) and is not nearly as stressed out. We've had pretty regular sex the last couple months, usually 2-3 times a week. I'd say about half of the time we have good sex, and the other half is like before, with her more or less "throwing me one". We had a talk, and I explained to her that having sex is not about me wanting to get off, I can do that by myself. Having sex with REAL intimacy is one of the ways I feel close to her, that I feel loved by her, and show my love for her. That really seemed to strike a chord with her, and I feel that was somewhat of a turning point. She has been taking more initiative... saying things like "I have to work tomorrow night and the night after, so we'd better have sex tonight" or "my period's starting in a few days, we'd better get it in while we can get it in"... stuff like that.

I am also trying to be more attentive to her mood. If she's had a long day or something, I know not to bother her for sex. I'd say initiation is at about 50/50. The sex is still pretty vanilla, but I did get her to give me oral once, with promises to do it more often (though I'll probably always have to request it, rather than her volunteer). She still refuses to let me give her oral, says she's not into that at all. I told her that even though I would LOVE to be able to give her oral, I respect that she doesn't want it and won't bother her about it. I'll probably occasionally bring it up again, and she'll probably never change her mind. She claims that she has orgasms at least 3/4 of the time we have sex(I'm not sure I believe that, but she really isn't the type to lie about that). She said foreplay is just not important to her, she just really likes sex to be hard, fast and rough. I guess even at the peak of our sex life, she always did seem to enjoy herself the most when we were in the hard pounding stages.

I'm afraid that this is just a lazy habit that she's gotten into. My biggest worry is that someday she'll cheat on me, let this guy do things to her she won't let me do, and then she'll think "OH... So this is how people have sex!" I used to date other girls where foreplay would take a long time. Now that I think about it, even during our dating phase, my wife was usually pretty quick to skip straight to poundtown. I don't recall long BJ sessions like I had with other girls etc.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Have you looked into getting this book? it would help you guys enjoy the time better.
https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/52-invitations-to-grrreat-sex-laura-corn/1110897659


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## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

Possible article for your wife to read.

https://forgivenwife.com/4-reasons-husband-desires-orgasm/


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

podiumboy said:


> We just had sex about an hour ago. She basically said "if you want to have sex tonight, do it now, because I'm tired!" Absolutely ZERO affection or intimacy. She simply pulled her pajamas down, bent over, and it was up to me to get myself hard, and lube myself up. She made no noise, no attempts to pretend to enjoy it, and then as soon as we were done she got pissed at me because I got cum on the blanket. So then she jumps up, runs to the bathroom and throws me a towel, puts her pajamas back on, and goes to bed. It was literally the WORST SEX ANYONE HAS EVER HAD!!! But it counts! I ensures to her that I won't bother her for a few days. That was the most unsatisfying experience I've ever had.


Jesus, does *anyone* need to get off THAT bad? This made me cringe just reading it.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Some people are stuck that that sort of sex is all that they ever get. If other things keep them from divorcing, they get "duty sex" or none - ever. 






She'sStillGotIt said:


> Jesus, does *anyone* need to get off THAT bad? This made me cringe just reading it.


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

OP here again. No updates really to speak of. Duty sex continues, averaging about 6 times a month. Wife still refuses to take any action to try to enjoy our sex life, it's purely something for my own release. If I bring it up, I'm an ******* for putting too much pressure on her, so I just let it go. I'm getting sick of this. I realize that it's me.... she's not attracted to ME. She doesn't want to have sex WITH ME. She's only 31, her vagina has not dried up and died... her sex drive is still intact, I just do literally nothing for her. I get that she's busy busy busy, kids kids kids, stress stress stress, but so am I... and I desire her sexually for sure. I have been following a lot of advice on here. 

I took my wife out for a date night recently. Kids stayed the night with Grandparents. It was a great time, we had a lot of fun. We connected on every level, it was seriously like back when we were dating. We were holding hands, laughing, having little mini make-out sessions, having some really good conversations, etc. I figured we were gonna have great sex when we got back, we were just firing on all cylinders. Instead, we get home and she went to the bathroom, while I got everything set up in the bedroom. Then she comes in with her (very unsexy) pajamas on, and she says "well do you wanna do it tonight or tomorrow morning? Because I'm really tired so we have to make it quick." Her mood did a complete 180 from how she was during our date. I went along with it, we had our date night quickie, and then she went to sleep. No foreplay at all... NO TIME FOR THAT. She just wanted me to get it over with. I was pissed off, but I didn't want to ruin the night. She woke up in a great mood, we had breakfast, we got the kids, and she went about her day. I brought this up to her a few days later, and she got really pissed off and said she thought we had great sex, and that she didn't know what I was complaining about. WTF?!

Other than sex, we actually get along great and work together very well. I sometimes wish I could just kill my sex drive, then at least we'd be on the same page and would have virtually nothing to fight about. I read about wives who actually want to have sex, who even offer their husbands sexual favors when they're on their period, etc, and I get very depressed. I'm not some sex-driven pig who just sees my wife as a collection of holes for me to penetrate. I want sex to be a mutually satisfying experience, and it's not. It's an awful feeling to reach out to embrace my wife sexually, and feel nothing but a cold body with no sexual energy emitting from her at all. It's not about having a checklist of things she has to do to make me feel like we have good sex, it's about something we're supposed to feel together... an intimate energy, that is completely, 100% lacking from her. 

I don't know what to do. It seems that having a good sex life with my wife is not going to happen. I don't think any amount of house cleaning, date nights, kid watching, romantic deeds are gonna do it. On the other side, I don't want to cheat on my wife at all... that would be awful. I think my best bet is trying to find a way to surpress my sex drive, so that I can just not care. We need to get on the same page, this is starting to hurt our marriage... and in situations like these, the low drive female ALWAYS has the upper hand and calls the shots. I know you people on here are gonna say "GET DIVORCED AND FIND A WOMAN WITH A BETTER SEX DRIVE! BEST THING I EVER DID!!!" I just can't do that... it's not an option. But I gotta do something. Our sex life has been like this for about 2 years. I first remember thinking something was wrong in December of 2015. We went out to see Star Wars 7: The Force Awakens, then got a hotel room afterwards. Hotels used to make my wife horny. That was the first time I remember feeling like I was making love to a corpse. She was a little drunk that night, but that's still the first time I remember. It seemed to only get worse from there.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Is she sexually attracted to other people? How do you know? She talks / in some ways acts as if she was sexually attracted to you- but then doesn't actually want sex. Do you think it would be different with someone else?

My wife acts as if she is attracted to me - but she almost never actually wants sex.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

If the dates are going to work, it is not something that will happen after one date. It'd be months of that alone, fun time together consistently to build back up love before you get to the point of having loving sex. 

If it was chores you can't clean the house and expect sex. It'd be consistent effort until she felt comfortable that it was a permanent change. 

Same with romance. One romantic gesture isn't going to make her want sex again. It has to be a regular thing for enough time that she can build back up love for you. 

Really nothing is going to be a quick fix and the majority of the work will be led and made by you. It sucks but that's the boat you are in. You could eventually get to the point of a happy and sexual marriage but the needed consistent effort on your part could ultimately build up so much resentment in you that you don't even care anymore.


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

uhtred said:


> Is she sexually attracted to other people? How do you know? She talks / in some ways acts as if she was sexually attracted to you- but then doesn't actually want sex. Do you think it would be different with someone else?
> 
> My wife acts as if she is attracted to me - but she almost never actually wants sex.


My wife also acts as if she is attracted to me - but that attraction doesn't seem to manifest itself down below. She calls me "handsome" a lot, sometimes even calls me "Sexy". Lots of butt slapping goes on if we walk past each other in the kitchen, for example... both ways. But man, when the lights go down and the clothes come off, she just becomes a statue. I feel like if she were to meet a new man at work or something, and he said all the right things and did all the right things, that her sexuality would suddenly spring back to life. She has shown absolutely no evidence of being unfaithful, or really even having an interest in sex at all. But I am inclined to think that if the right inspiration were to come along, it'd reignite that spark inside of her. I just don't think that at this point in our marriage, I am going to be able to get her there. We've been through a lot together... she knows me too well to find me attractive, sexually. She knows that even though I seem to exude a manly confidence, I'm actually a pretty big dork about certain things. She's seen me make countless mistakes. She's washed my dirty underwear. She's been through financial hardships with me. She's raising 2 kids with me, and between the kids, the work, the stress, etc, it's all pretty unsexy. There just seems to be no way she could find me sexually attractive at this point. 

A couple years ago, my wife worked at a salon as a massage therapist. There was another woman who worked there who cut my hair regularly. I guess you could say my wife and her were kind of friends. This woman had recently been divorced, was about 10 years older than me, early 40s but could definitely pass for early 30s. She basically hit on me all the time. She got to the point where she would text me about non-haircut related matters, and I usually wouldn't respond. She asked me to come over to her house sometime and take care of some things around the house that her husband used to take care of. I told my wife about all of this stuff, and how I thought this woman was hitting on me. My wife laughed like it was the most ridiculous thing she'd ever heard. As if to say, "yeah right... no woman would ever find my husband attractive...". I quit going to her for haircuts, and the texts continued. I eventually was out at a bar at our local ski lodge with my friend, and she happened to be there. She was a little drunk, came and sat next to me, and started rubbing my leg, and licking my ear. I shut that down immediately. I never told my wife about that, but it kinda makes me feel good that she was wrong, and that other women do find me attractive.

I realize that one date isn't going to make her into a porn star or anything. I'm working on it, I really am. I'm really striving for self improvement all over, in all aspects of my life. Trying to be a better, more attractive, more interesting husband is at the top of my list. I suppose it's possible she'll get her sex drive back... but it just seems like the most impossible thing right now.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

First off- Dorks are sexy as hell podium. My Dom is a total dork on the inside and I love it. 
Just had to clear that up lol 

Any chance she is into anything kinky? She get excited watching 50 shades of grey or other of that type? You're a manly confident guy so maybe she was attracted to a dominant type? 

Some women like a little more take charge. 
Ex- do you want to do it tonight or tomorrow? 
You- I want you to strip naked, lay down and I'm going to go down on you until I'm done and ready to F*** you. 
(I'm terrible with the words, I'd make a horrible Dom) 

If she takes to it, talk about adding more of that into things. I would also insure all activity, no matter how dominant, involved her pleasure at least at first so she doesn't feel used. 

Worst case she's totally offended but what do you have to lose at this point?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Podium, why didn't you tell her "no thanks" when she said to make it quick?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

At least when I've done that with my wife, she is happy to skip sex that time. I think she feels that having offered, she has done her part. 



farsidejunky said:


> Podium, why didn't you tell her "no thanks" when she said to make it quick?


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

uhtred said:


> At least when I've done that with my wife, she is happy to skip sex that time. I think she feels that having offered, she has done her part.


But if you accept you are showing her that you really don't care if sex is a mutually pleasing thing. At the end of it all, as long as you get it that's ok. 

A "not unless I can take my time to please you first" would go a lot further. 
Says to her you don't just want sex. You want mutual, passionate, loving sex.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

For us its never only about me, I always get her off (or at least make an attempt until she wants me to stop). For her "quickie" is a case of how much effort she is willing to put in for me. 




SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> But if you accept you are showing her that you really don't care if sex is a mutually pleasing thing. At the end of it all, as long as you get it that's ok.
> 
> A "not unless I can take my time to please you first" would go a lot further.
> Says to her you don't just want sex. You want mutual, passionate, loving sex.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

podiumboy said:


> I feel like if she were to meet a new man at work or something, and he said all the right things and did all the right things, that her sexuality would suddenly spring back to life. She has shown absolutely no evidence of being unfaithful, or really even having an interest in sex at all. But I am inclined to think that if the right inspiration were to come along, it'd reignite that spark inside of her. I just don't think that at this point in our marriage, I am going to be able to get her there. We've been through a lot together... she knows me too well to find me attractive, sexually. She knows that even though I seem to exude a manly confidence, I'm actually a pretty big dork about certain things. She's seen me make countless mistakes. She's washed my dirty underwear. She's been through financial hardships with me. She's raising 2 kids with me, and between the kids, the work, the stress, etc, it's all pretty unsexy. There just seems to be no way she could find me sexually attractive at this point.
> 
> .


One of the things that the people at the "Married Man Sexlife" site is "become the man that she would have an affair with."

In other words if you transform and become the new and exciting guy at work that she would fall for, then it might trip her trigger.


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

Her refusal to discuss your sex life is a difficult one, you need to clearly communicate with each other to avoid negative feelings. 

I think she does find you attractive and sexy but you can get hurt because she can't express it physically to you. Anything suggestions you may make, she may shut down or be offended. 

My sex therapist recommend to me once if someone is uncomfortable with discussing sex, you could possibly communicate your desire via flirting. So she instructed me to use my femininity to seduce my husband. You could switch it around and use your masculine side to possibly ignite your wife's desire. Like you could tell her how incredibly sexy she is etc. Tell what you would love to do etc. Confidence is key. 

It's being honest about your needs and desires but it's done in a positive, fun way so that a spouse doesn't feel criticised or pressured and also feels desired. 

Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Read a few romance novels. You'll quickly get an idea of that dream man and how he seduces.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

uhtred said:


> At least when I've done that with my wife, she is happy to skip sex that time. I think she feels that having offered, she has done her part.


That's likely because you have never accompanied it with a statement like:

"If 'hurry up' is the most intimacy you have to offer, I will pass. We both deserve better."


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

OP here with an update. I don't usually check my wife's search history, but we had another argument about sex the other day, and something told me I needed to look at it. I found a direct google search that said "Find sex with my husband repulsing", and links to several articles as well. 

It's one thing to think it, it's another to actually see proof of it. I'm still kind of in shock. I haven't confronted my wife, but she knows something is wrong. I told her we'll talk as soon as the kids go to sleep. I'm not sure how to attack this. I know that she'll be pissed that I looked through her history, but damn I'm glad I did. I think the first step I need to take is to find out if she still wants to be married to me. She seems to love me. She even made hotel reservations for our 9 year wedding anniversary this coming Saturday... that should be awkward. Step 2; stop sex immediately, for the foreseeable future, until we speak to a counselor and make some progress. I have my pride, I am not some pathetic fool, and if my wife finds me REPULSIVE, then I definitely do not want to have sex with her either. It makes me feel like a rapist, all the times she gave me duty sex while inwardly feeling repulsed by me. 

Any other advice?


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Ouch. 

Can you see what kind of articles she opened? If they were the "what is medically wrong with me" kind it may not be as bad as it looks. 

But I agree, you need to find out why she feels like this. I'd just tell her you saw it and have an uncomfortable sit down conversation.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Determine if it's repulsive because of you or not. Contrary to popular belief you may find it's not because of you.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

podiumboy said:


> OP here with an update. I don't usually check my wife's search history, but we had another argument about sex the other day, and something told me I needed to look at it. I found a direct google search that said "Find sex with my husband repulsing", and links to several articles as well.
> 
> It's one thing to think it, it's another to actually see proof of it. I'm still kind of in shock. I haven't confronted my wife, but she knows something is wrong. I told her we'll talk as soon as the kids go to sleep. I'm not sure how to attack this. I know that she'll be pissed that I looked through her history, but damn I'm glad I did. I think the first step I need to take is to find out if she still wants to be married to me. She seems to love me. She even made hotel reservations for our 9 year wedding anniversary this coming Saturday... that should be awkward. Step 2; stop sex immediately, for the foreseeable future, until we speak to a counselor and make some progress. I have my pride, I am not some pathetic fool, and if my wife finds me REPULSIVE, then I definitely do not want to have sex with her either. It makes me feel like a rapist, all the times she gave me duty sex while inwardly feeling repulsed by me.
> 
> Any other advice?


It might already be too late, but my advice is to give her time to digest what she might be reading as a result of her internet search. 

Five years ago I googled "How do I make myself want sex with my husband." I wound up here on TAM, and it was the beginning of a very, very , very good thing for my marriage. 

Had my husband found my internet search and confronted me, I would have been denied the space and time I needed to absorb what I learned. It took me a week or two after that search to go to him to talk about it. 

Can you just let things alone for a little while? The fact that she cares enough to be spending time looking into her lack of desire is, IMO, a positive thing . . . . even if the wording of her google search was hurtful for you to read. 

I know it probably sounds like splitting hairs, but her repulsion to sex with you might have nothing to do with how she feels about you as a husband. Help her figure this out: don't go on the war path yet.


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

* Mr Nail
It is amazing what happens when you are no longer begging, and she has no lever to keep you wrapped around her finger. Get your power back.*

Acting like sex is not important usually leads to less sex, sometimes no sex for 5, 10, 20 years. I agree about getting your power back

What Dazedconfuzed said usually happens.
*The problem is, I turned myself off to the point that I was/am pretty ambivalent about sex (both with my wife, and in general), which is clear to my wife, so even if she does feel like approaching, she often doesn't. She doesn't want to put herself 'out there' sexually/intimately for someone who appears uninterested or recalcitrant with regard to her advances. *


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## JustAFamilyMan (Aug 27, 2015)

podiumboy said:


> I know you people on here are gonna say "GET DIVORCED AND FIND A WOMAN WITH A BETTER SEX DRIVE! BEST THING I EVER DID!!!" I just can't do that... it's not an option. But I gotta do something. Our sex life has been like this for about 2 years. I first remember thinking something was wrong in December of 2015.


As someone further down the tunnel in this same issue, I'd bet everything on this being true. If you do not make this a fix it or end it issue, you're going to be saying this same thing 9 years from now. I am. Decide, soon, how important this is to you. You sound like me, a lot like me. She sounds like my spouse. I've tried, roughly in order:

- Asking what happened
- Explaining how it's affecting me, asking why it happened (the drastic change in approach)
- Explaining it was still killing me, offering anything and everything to help her be happy
- Getting back into "fighting weight" shape. (Got worse, not better)
- Explaining this would maybe end things if it didn't get fixed
- Spent five more years watching it not get fixed but get worse as I realized that threat had been hollow
- Sitting here now

So decide what this means to you. How fundamental a need it is to be desired. Realize that every option in front of you sucks, but only one of those options leaves you sitting here 9 years from now typing and thinking the same things, and that's accepting that this is just how life will be.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

JustAFamilyMan said:


> As someone further down the tunnel in this same issue, I'd bet everything on this being true. If you do not make this a fix it or end it issue, you're going to be saying this same thing 9 years from now. I am. Decide, soon, how important this is to you. You sound like me, a lot like me. She sounds like my spouse. I've tried, roughly in order:
> 
> - Asking what happened
> - Explaining how it's affecting me, asking why it happened (the drastic change in approach)
> ...


Such truth.
I did leave my bad/no sex ex. There were other reasons too but that was a big one. 

The option to leave was a rough road. I had to leave my home, lose 10 years of paying into it. Got nothing out of it. Lost 80% of my things. Dealt with severe anger during that time. Have such a tight budget I go without a lot. I get no child support. I have less time with my child. 

I am so incredibly happy I did. I don't regret it for a second. Every second of the hell I went through at first was worth it. 

I made sexual compatibility a #1 priority in dating and found a great man who has everything I need in and out of bed. 

I'm just happy and I didn't even realize how much I wasn't until I was again. 

At some point you have to decide how much your life and happiness means to you. There's always an option to leave.


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

Well we had the talk. She claims she doesn't find sex with me REPULSIVE, necessarily, but she was just using that as a topic to search for information on women with little to no interest in sex. She claims she desperately wants to regain her interest in sex with me. She says she knows how bad it makes me feel, and that it makes her feel just as bad. She misses her libido. She was hoping that getting a hotel for our anniversary would cause us to have a fun night and then go back and have some good hotel sex. Says that she does enjoy sex sometimes, but not often and the other times she was just pushing through for me.

I'm not naive, I don't really believe all that. I think she does find sex with me repulsive. I think she was put on the spot and did a good job of rug sweeping. But I'm not buying it. I don't doubt she feels the way she does, as far as feeling frustrated and wishing she could get her interest in sex back. But... she can't. Nothing I say or do can change that.

I told her no sex until we speak to a counselor and make some progress. I WILL NOT have sex with someone who finds me repulsive. Not even in the hotel for our anniversary... we'll just catch up on some much needed rest. If she comes on to me, I will shut her down. She seems desperate to fix things. For the first time, I'm starting to see divorce as an option. I will not live like this the rest of my life. If counseling doesn't help us figure out why she finds sex with me so repulsive, and give us tools we need to fix that issue, I'll have no choice but to divorce.

Divorce is the last thing I want. I can't imagine losing any more time with my kids, and they would be crushed. I can't imagine the huge financial hit I would take... it would be massive! But I feel like tonight we entered a new stage in our relationship. A "Fix it or leave it" sort of thing. It's gonna be hard, finding time for counseling will be hard, not to mention finding something to do with the kids while we go. It seems weird to leave them with grandparents, and say "hey, our marriage is in the ****ter, gonna go to counseling. Can you watch our kids?"


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

I think your assessment is spot-on, podiumboy. Someone doesn't use the word "repulsive" in their internet searches if they are merely disinterested. 

The good thing is that you're taking the reins at this point. Once she understands that you're not a "given" in her life, and that she stands to lose you, it might rekindle some genuine interest on her part. The hard part for you will be to determine what is genuine and what is not.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

podiumboy said:


> Well we had the talk. She claims she doesn't find sex with me REPULSIVE, necessarily, but she was just using that as a topic to search for information on women with little to no interest in sex. She claims she desperately wants to regain her interest in sex with me. She says she knows how bad it makes me feel, and that it makes her feel just as bad. She misses her libido. She was hoping that getting a hotel for our anniversary would cause us to have a fun night and then go back and have some good hotel sex. Says that she does enjoy sex sometimes, but not often and the other times she was just pushing through for me.
> 
> I'm not naive, I don't really believe all that. I think she does find sex with me repulsive. I think she was put on the spot and did a good job of rug sweeping. But I'm not buying it. I don't doubt she feels the way she does, as far as feeling frustrated and wishing she could get her interest in sex back. But... she can't. Nothing I say or do can change that.
> 
> ...


Wow, it's about time - good for you. If ANYTHING will turn it around that attitude is it.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

I agree podium. She could have searched how to want sex again, how to raise libido, etc 

Replulsive is a very specific and harsh word. I can't imagine how it felt to see that. If it was me, that word would be stuck in my mind no matter how much she/he tried to fix it. 
My ex told me one time I was too much work to make O. Didn't matter how much he backpedalled after and tried to fix it. I could never feel 100% ok having him do it again. 

My ex would try when I got serious about leaving. It would always go back to how it was once I was comfortable again. 

I likely missed but is she a sahm? I'd suggest you start now, she needs to find a job. Calculate your child support payments and figure out your future budget. 

IME if you let things slide too long past your anger zone you get stuck again.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

podiumboy said:


> Well we had the talk. She claims she doesn't find sex with me REPULSIVE, necessarily, but she was just using that as a topic to search for information on women with little to no interest in sex. She claims she desperately wants to regain her interest in sex with me. She says she knows how bad it makes me feel, and that it makes her feel just as bad. She misses her libido. She was hoping that getting a hotel for our anniversary would cause us to have a fun night and then go back and have some good hotel sex. Says that she does enjoy sex sometimes, but not often and the other times she was just pushing through for me.
> 
> I'm not naive, I don't really believe all that. I think she does find sex with me repulsive. I think she was put on the spot and did a good job of rug sweeping. But I'm not buying it. I don't doubt she feels the way she does, as far as feeling frustrated and wishing she could get her interest in sex back. But... she can't. Nothing I say or do can change that.
> 
> ...


OP, at this point do you think you are capable of *ever* getting over the use of the word "repulsive" in her search?

If not, and if that word and the feelings it creates in you, remain central to the work you and your wife have to do going forward to rebuild your sexual intimacy, then nothing she says and does--no matter how sincere--will make enough of a difference to you in you to fully embrace intimacy with her again. 

Although your snooping into her search history is understandable on some levels, it has also added another hurdle that will now further impede your chances of success. No doubt she would have chosen another phrase if she knew you were going to see her search history. 

She is willing to work on this with you, she has expressed frustration and a sense of loss, too. Why make this more adversarial than it has to be? Be on the same team as your wife, working towards a common goal. Don't treat this like it's just happening to you--it's happening to *your marriage*. 

I keep a journal, always have. Unfiltered, raw, just right from emotion to written word. I'm used to having a place to do that, a place where I trust no one is looking over my shoulder, a place where there are no consequences, where anything goes. A place to figure out who and what I am, and what I feel. And finding my own truth, especially when I am struggling, has always been winding path. Words I used yesterday do not apply today. Some words never applied in a "literal" sense--they were used to convey something that only *I* understood. 

If you take that word--*her* use of that word in a place she felt free and alone--and make its meaning belong to *you*, then your battle to regain deep intimacy is all the more uphill. 

I'm not saying it's not a hurtful word. I'm not saying you don't have a right to ask her about it. But also remember that you exposed yourself to that word, that she did not choose it as a word with which to communicate with you. 

Try to go forward with an open heart. My husband did, after many years of my having a "missing" libido, and it it were not for his ability to keep us on one team, with a common goal, we would not have what we have today.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

All good things for the counselor to bring up, don't talk him out of his awakening.


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## JustAFamilyMan (Aug 27, 2015)

GettingIt_2 said:


> Words I used yesterday do not apply today. Some words never applied in a "literal" sense--they were used to convey something that only *I* understood.
> 
> If you take that word--*her* use of that word in a place she felt free and alone--and make its meaning belong to *you*, then your battle to regain deep intimacy is all the more uphill.


Respectfully, I see this as a division between deeper truth and what we're willing to expose and share with another. It's not that the words we use to express our thoughts an emotions are only temporarily true, or that we have a private understanding of them no one else could grasp, but that we are afraid of sharing those things moment to moment with someone because we believe as you said that they may not apply tomorrow or, if they did, that they can be overcome. The worry is once out there, these become harder to defeat rather than easier, so we keep them. That word and what it meant does belong to him. She may not mean literally repulsive, but her feelings and thoughts about the experience of intimacy are going to be closer to "repulsive" than it will be to "I miss my libido and want to know how to get it back".

There is little I wouldn't give to have an open door into my wife's mind, because the place at which she's drawn that line between what is private and temporary, not for my ears or eyes, and what is hers, leaves me knowing almost nothing. I'm happy you and your husband were able to work through it. Maybe two people sharing all their thoughts and emotions as they fly by would make that outcome harder, but, in my opinion, it would make it more real too. I would always wonder otherwise if we truly overcame everything, or if we'd just learned to overcome enough to suppress the rest.


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## NickyT (Aug 14, 2017)

Here is the perspective of a woman who has been through this:

Your wife is probably tired. Kids put you in a non-stop who needs what kind of mode. You stop thinking about yourself and your needs. Sex and everything that leads up to it are a pain. 

I think she probably still has a sex drive and may be masturbating. Your sex with her is fodder for the masturbation. 

Ultimately, though, I think this is an intimacy issue. Parents can get into a tit for tat mode regarding children, even if one parent is stay at home. In my observation, this is worse when there are 2 or less children. Beyond two, you are playing zone, so you have to work more as a team and this seems to mitigate the problem.

Make sure you are helping out around the house, taking the kids and spending time with them without her. Make sure she is getting time to herself. Finally, start date night and make it a regular thing - once a week, every week. I don't care if you go to McDonalds and get a $1.29 cone. Take her out. 

Look in her closet and know her wardrobe a bit. When you take her out, ask her if she will wear the blue dress (or whatever). Tell her you like the way she looks in it. Better yet, go to the closet and pull out the dress and bring it to her.

Bring her flowers once a month. You don't have to order from teleflora - go to the market and get a $5 bouquet. Put it on your calendar to do it the first week of the month. Every month.

Listen to her. Listen to her. Listen to her.

Finally, stop asking for sex. If you feel like you are using her to masturbate, how do you think she feels? She is not expressing it, but my guess is that resentment is building up. If she asks for sex, don't just jump on it. Tell her you want candles or something else small, but a bit special. Send the message to her that YOU want the sex to be more than it is. If she is asking for sex, then ask her what she wants. She's asking for sex, so she must want something, right?? Tell you if she wants to have sex, she has to tell you what to do. Make her say the words "Just hump me and get it over with". I don't think she will.


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## 2020hindsight (Nov 3, 2015)

podiumboy said:


> OP here with an update. I don't usually check my wife's search history, but we had another argument about sex the other day, and something told me I needed to look at it. I found a direct google search that said "Find sex with my husband repulsing", and links to several articles as well.
> 
> It's one thing to think it, it's another to actually see proof of it. I'm still kind of in shock. I haven't confronted my wife, but she knows something is wrong. I told her we'll talk as soon as the kids go to sleep. I'm not sure how to attack this. I know that she'll be pissed that I looked through her history, but damn I'm glad I did. I think the first step I need to take is to find out if she still wants to be married to me. She seems to love me. She even made hotel reservations for our 9 year wedding anniversary this coming Saturday... that should be awkward. Step 2; stop sex immediately, for the foreseeable future, until we speak to a counselor and make some progress. I have my pride, I am not some pathetic fool, and if my wife finds me REPULSIVE, then I definitely do not want to have sex with her either. It makes me feel like a rapist, all the times she gave me duty sex while inwardly feeling repulsed by me.
> 
> Any other advice?


Don't jump to the conclusion that how she feels about having sex has anything to do with you. She may very well find you adorable and love you very much. It's just sex she finds repulsive. I can relate.

ETA: There has some scientific research done into the effect that arousal has upon feelings of disgust. Basically, the finding is that feelings of arousal overcome feelings of disgust, and that overcoming disgust is crucial to somebody enjoying sex. If you look at sex dispassionately without feelings of arousal, it's a pretty disgusting business. That's why kids instinctively say "eeww" when they find out what sex actually is. They have no feelings of arousal to protect them from the disgust of the physical mechanics of sex.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

JustAFamilyMan said:


> Respectfully, I see this as a division between deeper truth and what we're willing to expose and share with another. It's not that the words we use to express our thoughts an emotions are only temporarily true, or that we have a private understanding of them no one else could grasp, but that we are afraid of sharing those things moment to moment with someone because we believe as you said that they may not apply tomorrow or, if they did, that they can be overcome. The worry is once out there, these become harder to defeat rather than easier, so we keep them. That word and what it meant does belong to him. She may not mean literally repulsive, but her feelings and thoughts about the experience of intimacy are going to be closer to "repulsive" than it will be to "I miss my libido and want to know how to get it back".
> 
> There is little I wouldn't give to have an open door into my wife's mind, because the place at which she's drawn that line between what is private and temporary, not for my ears or eyes, and what is hers, leaves me knowing almost nothing. I'm happy you and your husband were able to work through it. Maybe two people sharing all their thoughts and emotions as they fly by would make that outcome harder, but, in my opinion, it would make it more real too. I would always wonder otherwise if we truly overcame everything, or if we'd just learned to overcome enough to suppress the rest.


I don't disagree with you, in many ways, but it is a fine line. With deep, deep intimacy, you have to be willing to put your ego aside. You have to be willing to hear things that scare the **** out of you, and remain calm and focused on your goal. 

"Deeper truth." Well, what is that, exactly? For someone like me who is a constant questioner and searcher . . . I guess I have not yet found what my "deeper truth" is, if it even exists. It terrifies me to think that my husband would try to take that autonomy from and and decide for me what that "deeper truth" is. 

And my husband is someone who is constantly looking for data, constantly looking for information on which to order his own truth, his own reality, his own sense of the world. He's an engineer, through and through. I am not like that at all. I don't function like he does, but I have come to understand him in his own right. And he, because he has been willing to listen to me and trust me, has come to understand that I live in a constant state of searching, questioning, wondering. That I don't "know" who I am. That I am willing to believe one thing today, and let it go tomorrow. It has been an indescribable gift from him that I can be me without fear of him taking my words or feelings and building a picture of me that I do not recognize. 

Deep intimacy is hard, hard work. You have to be willing to accept that open doors in to the minds of others are not granted lightly. They are earned. The trust that it requires can be too much to ask of some people--perhaps shouldn't be asked of some people. It requires that you accept yourself as well as accept the other person. 

Sometimes the best two people can do is negotiate acceptable behaviors and have contracts (written or unwritten) of expectations. But there *is* something beyond that. Not everyone wants it, though. Or they want half of it--they want the window into their partner's mind while preserving the right to interpret what they see through their own lens and then assign truth to it. Deep two-way intimacy doesn't work that way. You have to be willing to be uncomfortable--very uncomfortable--sometimes with what you learn. 

OP's wife has to want to go to that level of intimacy, has to trust that she could go there without the sort of consequences that she is already hearing from him. He is not giving her that space, so she will (hopefully) do the best she can with what he is willing to give her. I think that is how the vast majority of relationships go.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

> It's just sex she finds repulsive. I can relate.


Same here. And that's a personal issue, not a relationship issue. Therapy.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

I will say that I used words similar to "repulsive" to describe how I would feel sometimes about sex. 

It wasn't my husband who I found repulsive. I can clearly remember talking to my therapist about my feelings, and her telling me that sometimes we have to "fake it till we make it." Ha. Try faking it when your skin is crawling and every fiber of your being is screaming "don't touch me, please don't touch me!" while your husband is trying his honest best to please you and love you using your body and his. 

IMO, this loss of libido--indeed her feelings of finding sex repellent--is a phase that many women in long term marriages go through. Whether or not it becomes ingrained and the "new norm" varies between marriages based on how it is handled by the couple. 

If OP and his wife can talk openly and without judgment, and with trust that both want to get back to physical intimacy that is mutually desirable and enjoyable, then they are on the right path. 

Getting defensive or putting one's partner on the defensive doesn't have to be a part of the process. Making threats or unilateral decisions doesn't have to be part of the process. 

I'm thinking OP's wife might do better on working on this in individual therapy than in couple's therapy, at least in the beginning. Building the sort of trust it takes to be able to openly say that sex feels "repulsive" and not fear a reaction that then becomes another issue to "manage" in the marriage does not happen over night.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

While I understand where you are coming from and it applies in some cases, in many others (probably the OP's, certainly mine) there are people who really have little or no drive no matter what is going on the rest of the relationship.

My wife will say that she is extremely happy with me, thinks I'm a wonderful romantic person, and we have plenty of time. She just doesn't want sex. 




NickyT said:


> Here is the perspective of a woman who has been through this:
> 
> Your wife is probably tired. Kids put you in a non-stop who needs what kind of mode. You stop thinking about yourself and your needs. Sex and everything that leads up to it are a pain.
> 
> ...


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

This will always be an issue in this relationship.

even if she get somewhat better it will always be there.

eventually you will say I'm done. I can't take it anymore. and then you will file for divorce.

or you will accept it and be miserable .

get out sooner rather than later.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

uhtred said:


> While I understand where you are coming from and it applies in some cases, in many others (probably the OP's, certainly mine) there are people who really have little or no drive no matter what is going on the rest of the relationship.
> 
> My wife will say that she is extremely happy with me, thinks I'm a wonderful romantic person, and we have plenty of time. She just doesn't want sex.


Right, but (I don't think) she's thought of sex with you as being repulsive. Perhaps certain acts, yes, but it's nothing personal towards you. From what OP's said, this is about him. Not "him" in the sense that his wife finds him unattractive, or literally repulsive. More along the lines of "I view him as a friend, or even a brother" type of thing. Which is, sadly, not difficult for some people to start viewing their spouse as.

We see this fairly often with men who, once their wife has kids, no longer view them in the same way. "That's the mother of my children, I can't do THAT to her!". Madonna/***** syndrome, right? I can tell you that my wife's attitude towards sex changed somewhat once we all (2 kids included) moved in together. Prior to that, even if they all slept over at my house, or I at hers, nothing was really different. Once all officially under the same roof, it changed. Now it was super-secretive and ultra-private and happened a LOT less.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

alexm said:


> From what OP's said, this is about him. Not "him" in the sense that his wife finds him unattractive, or literally repulsive. More along the lines of "I view him as a friend, or even a brother" type of thing. Which is, sadly, not difficult for some people to start viewing their spouse as.


I agree with this. I think this is the crux of most of the LD situations where the wife has lost interest. Although she cares deeply about her husband, emotionally she thinks of him like a brother. And like most people, she has little interest in having sex with her brother. Compounding the problem is that women often have their drive go to zero, so they have no self-motivation to fix the situation. They don't desire sex, so they don't put any effort in to improving their sex life. 

If you have a time machine, the solution is to back in time and make sure your relationship is always sexualized. Don't let it slip into being like siblings. Always make sure that she knows that you're not there to be just a friend, you're there to be her lover (and f her brains out on a regular basis). Hopefully other people reading this early in their relationship can take this advice and avoid the problem later in their marriage.

As for what you can do now, I'm not sure. Like, would there be anything your sister can do to make you want to have sex with her? I have a hard time of thinking how I could change my perspective about something like that. 

I did start this thread to try to capture real stories of success:

Are there any true stories of long-term success when W has zero desire?

There's a few stories in there that maybe you can learn something from.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The social sciences guy in me says that without understanding root cause of your case AND knowing the root cause(s) of the cases you're reading, you're basically taking in raw data which is generally not relevant to your case.

Low desire at 30 vs 40 vs 50 is a totally different ballgame. There are some success stories but the success rate overall is not too encouraging. I wish it were.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

I think you've been given this advice before, but you need to start living your life for yourself in a way that makes you happy without being dependent on having a satisfying sex life. This may mean you start working out, play sports, hang with friends, or whatever makes you happy. Quite often, we think we have to fix our sex life to be happy, but you can often find happiness in other ways. This isn't to fix your sex life (although sometimes it can). It is to fix your sanity so you don't brood about what isn't going right in your relationship.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

wilson said:


> I agree with this. I think this is the crux of most of the LD situations where the wife has lost interest. Although she cares deeply about her husband, emotionally she thinks of him like a brother. And like most people, she has little interest in having sex with her brother. Compounding the problem is that women often have their drive go to zero, so they have no self-motivation to fix the situation. They don't desire sex, so they don't put any effort in to improving their sex life.
> 
> If you have a time machine, the solution is to back in time and make sure your relationship is always sexualized. Don't let it slip into being like siblings. Always make sure that she knows that you're not there to be just a friend, you're there to be her lover (and f her brains out on a regular basis). Hopefully other people reading this early in their relationship can take this advice and avoid the problem later in their marriage.
> 
> ...


Making sure your relationships is always sexualized: that is great advice. If sex is important to you, then it becomes your responsibility (fair has noting to do with it) to maintain it. 

Making sure your *wife* is sexualized is another matter, and there are things you can do to help her with that, but mostly it's on her to find her way to beings a sexual being. And she has to be able to communicate with you if indeed there are things you can do to help her on that journey. I think that most women are/can become sexual--even those who, at certain times in their lives, feel no desire. OP's wife once felt sexual (or at least she was sexual in a way that satisfied him). 

She has to want to find her way there, though. She has to embrace sexuality as a part of her being and not feel that it's "icky" or "juvenile" or whatever. OP's wife says she wants to find her way back to that--at least for his sake. I guess at this point all we can do is wait and see. Effort is one thing. Results are another. Effort can start right now, today. Results might take longer.


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

We had another talk about it last night. She still stands by her claim that she doesn't literally find me repulsive, or sex with me repulsive, just that she was using that as an adjective to try to find other women's stories. She says the reason she was researching this is she is desperate to get her sex drive back. She says she misses that part of herself, and she knows that it's put a hurt on our marriage. 

Then she told me something she's never really said before. She said she likes the actual act of having sex. Once we get going, 7/10 she really likes it. 2/10 she's not in the mood but is happy to do it for me. 1/10 she just really doesn't enjoy it at all. She just has a problem with foreplay. She has a problem with being touched intimately. Like, me touching her vagina feels wrong to her. Which does make sense. The next time we are going to have sex is tomorrow night, because we're going out for our anniversary and staying in a hotel. I told her my idea of having no sex until we see a counselor, and she really didn't want to do that. She says she wants to call the shots more during sex, and do some things that she's been recently uncomfortable with (oral, among others), but that she gets to say when enough is enough. She says we need to kiss more often, and have non-sexual touch more often (which I agree). So we've been doing things like cuddling on the couch and watching TV, etc. 

One thing she told me is that for her, getting plowed doggystyle is so much better for her than all other sex positions / acts, that after awhile she got this mindset that anything else was a waste of time. She realizes that was not a good mindset to be in. My problem with doggy is that I cum early in that position. In other positions, like cowgirl or missionary, I can lost a lot longer. With doggy, it's like a race against the clock to try to get her to orgasm before I get there myself. It just really rubs me the right way, so to speak. I find myself thinking about mundane facts, visualizing song lyrics in my head, etc. And yeah, what man hasn't done that at some point, but it's kind of annoying. My preference was always to do it in one of those other positions for awhile to get some mileage out of the sex, and then switch to doggy when it was time for the finale. But I think that once she got pregnant, Doggy was the only position that really worked after a certain point. Then we had kids, quickies became the norm, and there you have it. 

We agreed to leave the main event for Saturday... the key will be to not get her too drunk. She's a lightweight, and while I can't drink like I did in college, I definitely still have a high tolerance. I'm not putting too much pressure on this weekend, sexually. I really just want to have a fun date night without having to rush home to the kids to relieve a babysitter. The sex will just be a fun way to end the night, and hopefully begin the next morning as well. She agrees that she is really looking forward to it.

Is she using sex/affection to gloss over this little spat we've had? 
Did she just tell me a bunch of stuff I want to hear?
I think part of the problem is that even if things do turn around, I will be suspicious still. Let's just say my wife suddenly finds her lost libido, IT WAS UNDER THE ****ING COUCH ALL ALONG!!! Then we start banging every day. I would just think that she is, as they say, "sex bombing" me to distract me from the fact that she's also having an affair, or something like that. Of course, right now I sometimes think the fact that she doesn't seem to get into our sex indicates that she has something with somebody else (no evidence of that... believe me, I've looked and continue to look). I never used to be a jealous, insecure guy... WTF happened? Of course, we were having hot sex on the regular.

I need to get out of my own head. As I said in a different thread, I really should consider myself lucky that this beautiful woman wants to bang me at all.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

It sounds like she isn't in love and connected with you, not being in love can make it feel weird and wrong for you to touch her. 

Another thing- she should be turned on before you touch her vagina. Ya, it's weird to just be grabbed and rubbed there when you are at 0. Imo foreplay starts in all the other areas of the body. Vagina is your last step. 

She is right that you need a lot more non-sexual touching and other needs met. 

Her calling the shots make work or may backfire. Depends on a lot of things. Sometimes it's good to get out of our own heads and control a bit and just let things happen. 

Maybe ask if she can have one time calling the shots and you can have one time calling the shots. 

On your time you really, really take your time to get her warmed up. Massage, neck kisses, kissing down her stomach. Don't go for the vagina until she is literally squirming. Then oral -softly- and taking your time until she Os. She may not need direct clit stimulation and too long of that can be uncomfortable which can make her want to stop. 

She needs to remember sex feeling amazing from head to toe and taking the time to enjoy and relax. 

Don't worry so much about other men or the why. Just focus on if you can fix it


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Have you read MMSLP?


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

podiumboy said:


> Is she using sex/affection to gloss over this little spat we've had?
> Did she just tell me a bunch of stuff I want to hear?
> I think part of the problem is that even if things do turn around, I will be suspicious still. Let's just say my wife suddenly finds her lost libido, IT WAS UNDER THE ****ING COUCH ALL ALONG!!! Then we start banging every day. I would just think that she is, as they say, "sex bombing" me to distract me from the fact that she's also having an affair, or something like that. Of course, right now I sometimes think the fact that she doesn't seem to get into our sex indicates that she has something with somebody else (no evidence of that... believe me, I've looked and continue to look). I never used to be a jealous, insecure guy... WTF happened? Of course, we were having hot sex on the regular.
> 
> *I need to get out of my own head.* As I said in a different thread, I really should consider myself lucky that this beautiful woman wants to bang me at all.


Yes, I think you can be your own worst enemy here if you are not careful. This would be a good focus of IC for you, and probably the most important thing you can do in the process of sexual reconciliation with your wife. She certainly her her own work cut out for her, too. But working separately on this as far as counseling goes might yield better results than couples counseling. 

MMSLP might help you. I didn't find it objectionable or threatening, and read it with my husband and liked most of what I read for use in context of my own marriage.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

It's painful to watch someone so soft and naive fall for this crap.


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

I don't see how I'm being naive at all? If anything, I'm overly pessimistic about this situation.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

podiumboy said:


> I don't see how I'm being naive at all?



Ya, I know.

You're just riding the merry go round. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Ya, I know.
> 
> You're just riding the merry go round.
> 
> ...


Why don't ya be a good sport, and just indulge us and tell us a bit more? I'm happy to hear everyone's advice. I am trying to take it all in and use it to help my situation. I know that I'm probably not handling this as assertively as I should. Hit me with it, don't just make little remarks like that.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

You are likely to get a bunch of advice from people who have never been in your situation. The other advice you will get is to divorce and find someone else. That will "work" in a sense but it may not be what you are looking for.




podiumboy said:


> Why don't ya be a good sport, and just indulge us and tell us a bit more? I'm happy to hear everyone's advice. I am trying to take it all in and use it to help my situation. I know that I'm probably not handling this as assertively as I should. Hit me with it, don't just make little remarks like that.


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## JustAFamilyMan (Aug 27, 2015)

podiumboy said:


> Why don't ya be a good sport, and just indulge us and tell us a bit more? I'm happy to hear everyone's advice. I am trying to take it all in and use it to help my situation. I know that I'm probably not handling this as assertively as I should. Hit me with it, don't just make little remarks like that.


Maybe we can help one another, though I'm several years further in to my situation. Reality: Even if she loves you, the likelihood you'll be right back where you are today but with yet even more years of your life gone is almost certain. Able to live with that?


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> It sounds like she isn't in love and connected with you, not being in love can make it feel weird and wrong for you to touch her.
> 
> Another thing- she should be turned on before you touch her vagina. Ya, it's weird to just be grabbed and rubbed there when you are at 0. Imo foreplay starts in all the other areas of the body. Vagina is your last step.
> 
> ...


I don't think she meant she would call the shots all the time. She just agreed that she needed to be more vocal about what she wants during sex/foreplay. 

Also, I know not to just go straight for the boobs and vagina. That's the kind of stuff I learned with my first gf in high school. It's kind of weird... my wife kind of struggles with foreplay. She just kinda wants to jump right into the sex. There have been times where I have citing us as having had "duty sex", and she is confused and says "I remember that time, and I thought we had really good sex." And in actuality, it was good. She had what appeared to be a legitimate orgasm. Sometimes I take the fact that there was no foreplay to mean that she was simply just letting me have sex with her... but it seems like that's the way she likes it, if that makes sense. 

It will take awhile until she lets me give her oral sex. She REALLY seems to struggle with that, it makes her very uncomfortable. Our oldest is about to turn 6, and I am pretty sure the last time I gave her oral was before he was born. It never really seemed to do much for her, even back in the old days. Before my wife, I had other girlfriends who seemed quite satisfied with my oral abilities, so I don't think it's because I'm bad at it (or WAS bad at it... it's been so long, I'm afraid I'd be awful at it by now). She liked it, but I don't feel like she ever really orgasmed from it. And believe me, back then, she was hot for me. She was insatiable, she wanted sex way more than I did. She sometimes cites that as a reason for her low libido. That she used to come on to me, wear lingerie for me, etc... and I didn't seem as into it. I kind of remember going through a phase when I wasn't as horny. Maybe because I was getting laid every night, and took it for granted? Who knows... I was a young idiot. I'd do anything for her to dress up in lingerie now. 

I actually showed her some pictures that she took when we were first married, roughly 9 years ago. Her in sexy lingerie, she took them for me and gave them to me as a gift. I still have them. She said she missed being that way, with the lingerie and all, but she is too body conscious now. The thing is, I still think she's incredibly hot. I don't look at those old pictures and think "man, she used to be so hot back then"; she is just as attractive to me now at 31 as she was when she was 19, when we first got together. I literally don't see a difference. She always talks about wanting to lose weight (she doesn't need to at all), but I would prefer she stays as she is right now. I've told her this, and tried to show her this. 

I don't really worry about other men too much. I don't believe she's cheating on me, and yet I feel like I can't just let my guard down about that. Nobody ever thinks their wife will do that to them, I've read too many stories to be that naive. Part of me thinks "man, if she is cheating on me, I'll bet her and the OM are laughing their asses off about the duty sex she gives me, while meanwhile he's getting the full course meals." Not a healthy attitude, I know. I'm really trying to work on getting those thoughts out of my head... coming to this site doesn't help.


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

JustAFamilyMan said:


> Maybe we can help one another, though I'm several years further in to my situation. Reality: Even if she loves you, the likelihood you'll be right back where you are today but with yet even more years of your life gone is almost certain. Able to live with that?


I don't know. The thought of breaking up my family over sex is the most horrifying thing I can think of. When I try to picture a reality in which my kids grow up in a house where my wife and I are not together, I literally can't finish the thought. My mind just won't go there. The thought of having 50/50 custody of my kids is unfathomable to me, and that's the best case scenario. The thought of being "Weekend Dad" practically makes me want to cry. The idea of my kids having to live with some Stepdad is an unpleasant one. The idea of me one day remarrying to a woman who would try to dictate how much time/money/effort/resources I put into my kids is also unfathomable. 

But I get what you're saying. I'm not exactly optimistic about my wife's lust for me ever returning. I think she'll try for awhile... and then it'll fall off again... and again... and again. I think we need to see a counselor about this. I love my wife very much; I would say that our marriage is pretty rock solid, other than this part of it. We're the couple that our friends look to as a success. We've seen marriages rise and fall in our 9 years of being married. Our biggest issues are that she has a significantly lower sex drive than myself, and seems to genuinely not like most forms of foreplay. Our other biggest issue is me getting in my own head too much...as evidenced by this thread.


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## JustAFamilyMan (Aug 27, 2015)

podiumboy said:


> I don't know. The thought of breaking up my family over sex is the most horrifying thing I can think of. When I try to picture a reality in which my kids grow up in a house where my wife and I are not together, I literally can't finish the thought. My mind just won't go there. The thought of having 50/50 custody of my kids is unfathomable to me, and that's the best case scenario. The thought of being "Weekend Dad" practically makes me want to cry. The idea of my kids having to live with some Stepdad is an unpleasant one. The idea of me one day remarrying to a woman who would try to dictate how much time/money/effort/resources I put into my kids is also unfathomable.
> 
> But I get what you're saying. I'm not exactly optimistic about my wife's lust for me ever returning. I think she'll try for awhile... and then it'll fall off again... and again... and again. I think we need to see a counselor about this. I love my wife very much; I would say that our marriage is pretty rock solid, other than this part of it. We're the couple that our friends look to as a success. We've seen marriages rise and fall in our 9 years of being married. Our biggest issues are that she has a significantly lower sex drive than myself, and seems to genuinely not like most forms of foreplay. Our other biggest issue is me getting in my own head too much...as evidenced by this thread.


We are eerily similar in this regard. Though, it's gone on long enough for me now that a good deal of the love I used to feel is dead. I'm really just not that turned on by her anymore and it takes effort to maintain the physical reactions that used to be so automatic as to be embarrassing in the wrong company. It _strangled_ my love for her.

Even still, fear that the lack of sexual desire is my fault combined with the agony of imagining the kids raised by her + someone else or even just without me there all the time...


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## Married-Man (Dec 6, 2011)

"...met with immediate defensiveness, and telling me I'm putting too much pressure on her."




Hmmm....Maybe let her try being on top?


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

JustAFamilyMan said:


> Maybe we can help one another, though I'm several years further in to my situation. Reality: Even if she loves you, the likelihood you'll be right back where you are today but with yet even more years of your life gone is almost certain. Able to live with that?


This is the very likely outcome. Even if she is well motivated, her wild desire may never come back. The current type of intimacy may be what you can expect going forward. For it to be satisfying, you will both need to compromise, but it will likely end up being much closer to what you have now rather than what you had in the past. If you only have one acceptable outcome you will accept--willing, eager, passionate sex on a regular basis--you are very likely to be disappointed. But if instead you both look at what you have and try to make the best of it, you may be able to find happiness in that.


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## JustAFamilyMan (Aug 27, 2015)

wilson said:


> If you only have one acceptable outcome you will accept--willing, eager, passionate sex on a regular basis--you are very likely to be disappointed. But if instead you both look at what you have and try to make the best of it, you may be able to find happiness in that.


I think it's important to note that if you can find happiness in that, now is the time to start. Don't wait for the inevitable failure of the willing, eager, passionate sex to emerge. Find out now if you can be happy as things are.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

If she can't have enjoyable sex with you while SOBER, then any improvements you may interpret will be an illusion. 

You need MC and a sex therapist. And 90% of sex starts in a woman's brain and is something that best builds over time. She has to naturally learn to accept growing desire. She has to learn to literally put the "junk" floating in her brain in a trash can temporarily. Because we're always thinking about something.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

She clearly has repression regarding sex. I'd skip everything else and just find a good therapist who deals with that, from her childhood Figure out where it came from and help her overcome it.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

Maybe there is a different side of the coin...

What some people don't know or understand is that PIV can be foreplay for some woman. She may not have desire for or really want sex at the moment so offers "duty sex", but then in the process the thrusting turns her on and she is able to move quickly to orgasms. It sometimes works that way for me - minus the orgasm quickly with PIV alone - cause that takes clitoral stimulation for me - but I do often get turned on by PIV thrusting after offering husband a quickie of just PIV cause I am not feeling it at the moment. In a way this is a responsive desire. She responds to having PIV with you. IF true - sounds like a win win - if you can get her to show a little more passion and be a bit more adventurous. 

So perhaps she is being honest with you - and you have been reading her wrong. I would strongly suggest you keep the conversations going. And pay attention more to her body as you are having sex. Do you see signs that she is getting turned on or is having orgasms? I just read a book that you might find interesting and may want to have your wife read with you. "Just f*ck me!" by Eve Kingsley. See if this applies to your wife. It may not - but when I read what your wife said - it made me think of this book. Maybe she is turned on by the idea of just being taken and doggie style gives her that being taken feeling. Only she knows what she truly feels. Something to explore - maybe?

I also understand her need to be in control - for now. As a young mother, I often felt so out of control over most of my life - that I desperately needed to control what I could. That could change later on as the kids get older - but for now, I think you need to make sure she is comfortable and is allowed to express herself the way she needs to. Keep talking to her - letting her know you appreciate her efforts and want to understand her more. And unless you are sure she is not telling you the truth - believe her. Then go forward from there helping and reaffirming her. She needs to learn to be comfortable with talking about sex and her sexual feelings and desires with you. You can help her feel more comfortable doing that by you sharing your feelings more and listening to her with the intent to really hear her and not read your own insecurities into what she is saying. 

If she is googling things - trying to get her desire back - what she may be missing and trying to get back is the horny feeling she use to get before kids when your relationship was new and exciting. She may need to google responsive desire instead - cause that sounds like what is happening with her now, if what she is telling you is true. Maybe she one of the lucky ones that responds to PIV and can quickly orgasm with it. It's not all that common - but maybe she is being honest with you. If she is really orgasaming and enjoying it as often as she says she is - then maybe she really is one of the lucky ones. 

Its not easy to switch between Mommy mode into sexy vixen mode. And there is nothing wrong with having a responsive desire. She just may need some help on understanding it and learning to go with it - allowing that desire - once it is ignited by some PIV - to last a little longer by experimenting with other positions or activities before having an orgasm - or maybe experimenting with having multiples. Maybe next time you get her going with some PIV - stop before she has an orgasm and then try something else. Ask her first or talk about this option before having sex - since she needs to feel in control right now. But do it on a night when you know she is not stressed or tired and you have a little more time to enjoy each other.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

Also I agree with others that it is not necessarily you she finds repulsive - its the feeling of having to provide sex when she really does not want to have sex that is repulsive. While it may be linguistics - the result is still the same - she is tying the feeling of repulsion to having sex with you. Not a good thing. And a very hurtful one for you. But please understand - she does not want to feel this way - and it does sound that she is not repulsed by you in any other way - and enjoys being with you and spending time with you. 

For me the repulsion was totally about sex itself. And it was made worse when I felt like I had to have sex with hubby at times that I really really did not want to. It was during those times that I made it perfectly clear that I really really did not want sex - and he still did it when I finally said - then just do it - that the repulsion feelings were very strong. 

So don't let that happen - take sex totally off the plate when its clear she does not want it! When she does things like she did after the date - and says just get it over with - Say no thank you! Several of us have told you in different ways - and all very bluntly - accepting duty sex when she clearly does not want to do it - is hurting your relationship with her! 

So tell her - bluntly - given that you say you really really don't enjoy sex 1/10 - don't offer it or stop it when it feels bad! I don't want you to ever ever have sex with me when you really really don't want it and are not enjoying it in some way or another. Then follow through as soon as you get an inkling its one of those times!!! 

Again - I reiterate - ACCEPTING SEX FROM HER WHEN SHE HAS MADE IT CLEAR SHE DOES NOT WANT SEX IS HURTING YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH HER!!!!!!


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

JustAFamilyMan said:


> We are eerily similar in this regard. Though, it's gone on long enough for me now that a good deal of the love I used to feel is dead. I'm really just not that turned on by her anymore and it takes effort to maintain the physical reactions that used to be so automatic as to be embarrassing in the wrong company. It _strangled_ my love for her.
> 
> Even still, fear that the lack of sexual desire is my fault combined with the agony of imagining the kids raised by her + someone else or even just without me there all the time...



It sounds like the fear of the unknown is still much stronger than the fear of being stuck with the painful known you have right now. As long as the fear of the unknown is greater then remaining with the known (no matter how bad the known may be)- you will not be able to move forward and will remain where you are - stuck with your painful known!


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

The other thing I want to comment on is your roller coaster emotions about your wife. In one update you say things are better and you are pessimistic. Then the next update - things are bad again - and you are only getting duty sex. Then the next update - things are better again and she is going to try. Up and down - up and down! 

You also say you are not going to have duty sex with her - then you have it with her - which never ends well, does it? 

Someone needs to get off this dysfunctional roller coaster in this marriage. Since you are the one posting - I suggest that you are the one that needs to get off of it. This problem is not going away - not in the near future anyways! You know what you need to do - and what you need to stop doing!! 

1. Stop having sex with her when she clearly does not want to have it but offers it to you anyways! DONT ACCEPT!!!!
2. Find a good sex therapist and get professional help! IF she won't go with you - go alone! 
3. Since you have repeatedly said divorce is not on the table for now - then accept things as they are and stop the ups and downs concerning sex!! Do the above 2 things - and if they work - great!!! If they don't work, accept your life as it is and find a way to be happy with it as it is. Stop focusing on the lack of good sex - and focus totally on the rest of the marriage that is good.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

podiumboy said:


> I don't think she meant she would call the shots all the time. She just agreed that she needed to be more vocal about what she wants during sex/foreplay.
> 
> Also, I know not to just go straight for the boobs and vagina. That's the kind of stuff I learned with my first gf in high school. It's kind of weird... my wife kind of struggles with foreplay. She just kinda wants to jump right into the sex. There have been times where I have citing us as having had "duty sex", and she is confused and says "I remember that time, and I thought we had really good sex." And in actuality, it was good. She had what appeared to be a legitimate orgasm. Sometimes I take the fact that there was no foreplay to mean that she was simply just letting me have sex with her... but it seems like that's the way she likes it, if that makes sense.
> 
> ...


A lot of this is how my first marriage went.

When we were first together, we were both relatively inexperienced, but we spent ~2 years learning, trying new things, figuring out what worked and what didn't. From the get-go with my ex wife, oral sex did little to nothing for her - direct clitoral stimulation, anyway. Even once "properly" warmed up, she still found it painful.

Somewhere around year 3 or 4, is when things started going downhill quickly. We were both early 20's at the time, and I remember she put a stop to kissing/making out. She said various things, such as it's gross, and also that I was just not a good kisser (my current wife disagrees, lol). Then oral sex (on her) essentially came to an end. She said there was no point, as her clit was far too sensitive. So oral sex turned into 5-10 seconds with the purpose of lubrication.

For several years, she still performed oral sex on me, but it most definitely was a "going through the motions" foreplay kind of thing. We did still do position changes during intercourse, but generally just the basics.

Really, by about year 4 or 5, sex was pretty much a "rinse and repeat" kind of thing. Subtle initiation was non-existant (ie. not sexy). Same thing pretty much every time, several times a week. Her orgasms were g-spot only (the only way she'd ever orgasmed, and something we learned with one another in the early years).

Then she bought a vibrator, on a whim. I was essentially replaced for about a year, because she was able to have clitoral O's for the first time in her life. Our sex life became the quote/unquote "starfish" variety for that year, while her vibrator use was solo, when I wasn't around (or she thought I couldn't hear... sigh). It took about a year for her to become comfortable with using the vibrator with me present, and the last 9-10 years we were together, it became the norm for her to bring it out when I was done so she could have her orgasm. Never let me use it on her, never used it during sex - always after I finished.

Solo use increased over the years, while our sex life decreased. Where we started out, way back when, having sex 3-5 times a week, we were now at maybe once a week, occasionally twice - but always 'duty sex'. The last 5-6 years of marriage, it was starfish, with her always lying on her stomach (so she didn't have to see me? Probably.) We hadn't kissed properly in seriously 10 years - no tongue. And by then, she wasn't even using her vibrator to finish. It was just used when I wasn't around. If I had to guess, she was probably masturbating 5x more than we were having sex by this point. Sex was still 'initiated' (I use that term loosely) 50/50, but it was no foreplay (save for 10 seconds of oral on her for lubrication, and 10 seconds of manual stimulation of me, if I was lucky) then right to PIV. Once in a while, she'd have a g-spot orgasm from PIV, depending on how excited she was beforehand, I guess. Most of the time it did little for her, yet she still wanted it. Always the same position.

In all honesty, this was spread out over ~14 years, so by the time it ended, it was all quite normal to me - and probably to her. FAR too late to have rectified in any way, IMO. Given our relative inexperience when we started dating, and the amount of years, and general graduality of it all, it simply didn't occur to me that this wasn't the way it was supposed to be.

But the gist of it was that she simply wasn't sexually (or romantically) attracted to me, and that clearly started very early on, unfortunately. Our romantic relationship really turned into a partnership and a friendship many years before, with neither of us really noticing, I suppose. The stopping kissing was really the tip of the iceberg, and a huge red flag that I completely missed. As soon as that was removed, there was a massive hole in regards to intimacy, especially the sexual kind. We both completely disregarded that, and just went about our lives.

Anyway, she did clearly still have a sex drive (given her masturbation habits) and she did eventually cheat on me. None of this had anything to do with lack of a sex drive for her - just lack of sexual interest in me, unfortunately.

So whenever I see these 'duty sex' only threads (of which there's a lot) and the couple did used to have a normal sex life, and they're still fairly young, I cringe. Yes, sometimes one's sex drive will wane over time, it happens. However, I do believe that it's more probable that the lack of drive is due to a lack of interest in one's partner, as opposed to something within that person (ie. hormones, etc.)

*ETA - my ex wife would also 'loosen up' considerably if she had a few drinks in her. She rarely drank to begin with, so it was largely a moot point, but nonetheless. I wouldn't say the sex itself was a whole lot better (still generally the same 'going through the motions') but she would suddenly become more adventurous, or forthcoming. Like "pull the car over" kind of thing.


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

Update; 2 weeks ago, we went on a date night for our anniversary. I was reluctant to have sex that night, after the whole "find sex with my husband repulsive" thing. But we went out. Nice dinner, drinks at a few bars afterwards, nice hotel. It was like when we were dating, except better conversation and a better understanding of one's limits with alcohol. We had really good sex that night, initiated by her, and she kinda took the lead. Like, we haven't had sex THAT good in a few years I'd imagine. Then it hit me... I called her out on her not finding me sexually attractive anymore. This was probably just her rugsweeping that incident by throwing me a good one. Or maybe she was genuinely turned on. She has driven me to the point where even if she seems to actively desire having sex with me, I just assume it's a performance that she's faking.

We had sex again a few days later, and while it was also pretty good, it was also rushed and closer to duty sex. She's started back to her final year of college, and her workload is intense. One kid is in kindergarten, the other back to pre-school. Her period was this week. We haven't had sex in over a week at this point. I'm afraid to even ask at this point, she has SO MUCH on her plate. The good news is that I have finally convinced her to quit her part-time job for this semester, so that she can have less on her plate. This will free up her/our weekends so that we can do more stuff as a couple, she can do more stuff as an individual/with friends, etc. I still maintain that the rest of our marriage is really good, as does she. Our date night was a blast, so I know we've still "got it", we just need more opportunities to be "us" again.

I'm working on losing weight, and I need to keep going. She actually admitted to me that my gut makes certain positions more difficult than it used to be. If that doesn't motivate you, nothing will!!! It's not like I'm morbidly obese, nobody is going to look at me and think "holy ****, that guy's gonna keel over any second!!" My job can be physically demanding at times, and I have no problems doing my duties despite being fat. I just have a little extra that I need to lose. It's like after my wife had kids, she bounced right back and lost all of her pregnancy weight and gave it to me! 

I'm not expecting my wife to turn into a porn star or anything like that. All I want is for us to have a happy sex life again, and to compromise at 1-2 times per week. Obviously I'd happily do it every single night, but that's not a realistic goal.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

JustAFamilyMan said:


> We are eerily similar in this regard. Though, it's gone on long enough for me now that a good deal of the love I used to feel is dead. I'm really just not that turned on by her anymore and it takes effort to maintain the physical reactions that used to be so automatic as to be embarrassing in the wrong company. It _strangled_ my love for her.
> 
> Even still, fear that the lack of sexual desire is my fault combined with the agony of imagining the kids raised by her + someone else or even just without me there all the time...


The key for me is that over time - just like you - the love I used to feel died. Then, I left. It was a good decision - one of my best ever! I was much happier, we were good coparents, she took a long time before dating and starting a new relationship, and it all worked to the benefit of our son. Fear of what _might_ happen is a barrier to leaving - it's rare that the fears reflect reality or probability.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

podiumboy said:


> Like, we haven't had sex THAT good in a few years I'd imagine. Then it hit me... I called her out on her not finding me sexually attractive anymore. This was probably just her rugsweeping that incident by throwing me a good one. Or maybe she was genuinely turned on. She has driven me to the point where even if she seems to actively desire having sex with me, I just assume it's a performance that she's faking.


If you want this marriage to succeed, you'll have to come to terms with the past. She seems like she is genuinely trying, which is much better than many relationships we see here. I'm sure some part of that date night was her true feelings and some part was her making an effort to make it good. Hopefully things get better and more natural over time. It's a rebuilding process. You may never forget the past, but you can't dwell on it either. It's a very positive sign that she's taking the right steps. Help her keep going in that direction.


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

uhtred said:


> If other things keep them from divorcing, they get "duty sex" or none - ever.


There is a very large "club" of us - I know many guys who are members, some women too.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

opinions of the frequency of sex vary greatly, Woody Allens take on this:


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