# Question for women who have left passionless marriage



## elizabeth2205

Just looking for some feedback from any of you who have made the decision to leave a stable marriage for no other reason than just not having any passion, spark, or attraction. 

*What is life like now? Are you happy you left? Are you happy on your own, or did you find some with whom you have a much stronger connection? Any advice you'd give someone struggling with the decision?
*
I am working though trying to decide whether I should stay or not and am having trouble. Where I'm getting caught up is that this is really the ONLY major problem in the relationship. I can argue both sides...stay or leave. I've been married over 20 years, and this has been a long-term issue for me - not just a new mid-life crisis. I'm also getting counseling, but really wanted to hear some 'real-life' experience. 

Thank you!!


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## Anonymous07

"The grass is not always greener on the other side. The grass is greenest where you feed and water it." 

What have you done to help fix this issue in your marriage?


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## chaos

elizabeth2205 said:


> *What is life like now? Are you happy you left? Are you happy on your own, or did you find some with whom you have a much stronger connection? Any advice you'd give someone struggling with the decision?*


So are you staying married only until that "passionate someone" comes into your life?


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## EleGirl

Can you describe what you mean by passionless? This can mean a few different things.


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## ConanHub

Try reading"What women want" by Daniel Bergner. Could give you some valuable insight and maybe save your marriage.

Some women have found much satisfaction in leaving but others have fixed themselves and their marriages, including husbands, and are happier than ever without the destruction of divorce.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort

More details on what you mean by passionless and what efforts have been made to deal with it would be helpful. I don't think you should remain if you've tried absolutely everything you can, I've seen plenty of threads where men in passionless marriages have been advised that life is too short to live that way, but only after they've exhausted every possible path to fixing it. Can you elaborate?


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## Holland

I am one that ended an almost 20 year marriage as it was sexless and passionless. It was not fixable because my ex is an emotionally stunted man. Good man, a great man but we were room mates and parents.

Short version, ending the marriage was the best thing for both of us, we are friends, co parent well together and are both far happier.

I have since met an extraordinary man, he is my match and we are both extremely happy.


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## firebelly1

I didn't leave only because sex was infrequent, but that was the trigger for MC for me. And I think it is a legitimate reason to end a marriage, if that is really the question.


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## lovesmanis

Intimacy is a very important part of a relationship. It shows connection and love. 
When intimacy is gone, people become roommates and friends. This is not a marriage, but a situation of convenience.

You have 2 options, get that spark back or leave and find your new path. If you dont, you will find yourself on the path of an affair which is far more painful than a divorce based on being on different life paths. 

The spark can be found again. It takes a lot of fun times alone together. You need to commit to finding each other agAin.


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## elizabeth2205

Sorry I'm late to reading your responses...I really appreciate everyone taking the time to post.

In response, here are some more details....


I married at age 25 to super nice man after end of a stupid bad boy relationship
I honestly don't believe that we ever had real physical chemistry. I can remember not being excited for sex on wedding night..honeymoon, trips, etc.
Sex is not bad once I get into it... it's just that I almost never look at him lustfully...that is the part that bothers me. Even though he is very easy to be around and makes me laugh, there's no flirting, no real playfulness, very little physical affection. I do feel like friendly roommates most of the time.
3 years ago, he called me out on my lack of desire. At that time, I did my own counseling & we went to a couple sessions together. I also did all the 'medical' tests to make sure it wasn't something like that. At the time, I felt like I didn't care about sex at all.
We read 5 Love Languages, followed some ideas from counselor for more touching, etc. I thought it might help, but it really didn't. After that, no more talking about it, and I went back to just playing along. I did become less avoidant about sex, so I'm sure he thinks I'm 'better'
In the last year, I've found myself becoming extremely attracted to a couple other men and am now realizing that the desire is definitely there, just not with husband.
I just read 'What Do Women Want', and it looks like I'm in that whole 'not desiring because he's too nice' realm.
Unfortunately, the book didn't really offer any good ideas for dealing with this issue. There was a vague reference to instilling more 'distance' in the relationship, but I really don't know what that means, or how one would go about implementing that.
The only suggestion I am anticipating is to talk to hubby, try to explain, and hope he can become someone radically different in the romance/sex department. I'm discovering how much I respond to strong masculinity and confidence - and he doesn't have either of these qualities. I'm extremely skeptical that can change.
I do not feel a need to stay until I find that 'passionate someone'. At my age (47), I realize that there is no guarantee I would ever find that person.
Even if I never found someone else, the thought of being on my own is something that appeals to me...the whole independence aspect of it. I find myself looking forward to alone time ALOT...don't miss hubby when he's gone and don't look forward to him coming home. I don't like that feeling.
Even with all of this said....I still question whether I'm 'going through a phase' and whether I'd regret giving up something that's very stable, comfortable and unconditional. Hence...the reason I asked my original question so I could see some 'real life' examples.
I know many of you will say I should have this exact discussion with hubby and try to work on the sex piece to see if we can change that. This is my primary concern with that ~~ Since I can't remember a time where I felt extremely attracted to him, this would not be working on 're-igniting' a spark....it would instead be trying to 'manufacture' a spark. Is this even possible??
I also feel extreme guilt for letting this go on so long. I guess it was a bit of denial and a bit of hoping it would fix itself - and then we immersed ourselves in raising kids. I don't think it's a coincidence that our oldest is starting college this fall (!). If I did leave him now, I feel like I've held him back from having the opportunity for someone who does have those kinds of feelings for him, and would be making him start over at almost 50.
I guess at this point, I'm trying to figure out if I should make the best of what I have (a good, caring husband who would do anything for me)....or take the leap, listen to my heart and jump into the unknown.


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## Jellybeans

You may meet someone you connect strongly with and you may not.

You may go on to have wild monkey sex and you may not.

Life is a gamble.

Because of the amount of people living on this planet, it's likely you will get laid again. Whether that translates into a "passion-filled" relationship is another story.


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## 3Xnocharm

elizabeth2205 said:


> *I married at age 25 to super nice man after end of a stupid bad boy relationship
> [*]I honestly don't believe that we ever had real physical chemistry. I can remember not being excited for sex on wedding night..honeymoon, trips, etc.*
> Sex is not bad once I get into it... it's just that I almost never look at him lustfully...that is the part that bothers me. Even though he is very easy to be around and makes me laugh, there's no flirting, no real playfulness, very little physical affection. I do feel like friendly roommates most of the time.
> 3 years ago, he called me out on my lack of desire. At that time, I did my own counseling & we went to a couple sessions together. I also did all the 'medical' tests to make sure it wasn't something like that. At the time, I felt like I didn't care about sex at all.
> We read 5 Love Languages, followed some ideas from counselor for more touching, etc. I thought it might help, but it really didn't. After that, no more talking about it, and I went back to just playing along. I did become less avoidant about sex, so I'm sure he thinks I'm 'better'
> *In the last year, I've found myself becoming extremely attracted to a couple other men and am now realizing that the desire is definitely there, just not with husband.*
> *[*]I just read 'What Do Women Want', and it looks like I'm in that whole 'not desiring because he's too nice' realm.*
> Unfortunately, the book didn't really offer any good ideas for dealing with this issue. There was a vague reference to instilling more 'distance' in the relationship, but I really don't know what that means, or how one would go about implementing that.
> *[*]The only suggestion I am anticipating is to talk to hubby, try to explain, and hope he can become someone radically different in the romance/sex department. I'm discovering how much I respond to strong masculinity and confidence - and he doesn't have either of these qualities. *I'm extremely skeptical that can change.
> I do not feel a need to stay until I find that 'passionate someone'. At my age (47), I realize that there is no guarantee I would ever find that person.
> *[*]Even if I never found someone else, the thought of being on my own is something that appeals to me...the whole independence aspect of it. I find myself looking forward to alone time ALOT...don't miss hubby when he's gone and don't look forward to him coming home. I don't like that feeling.*
> Even with all of this said....I still question whether I'm 'going through a phase' and whether I'd regret giving up something that's very stable, comfortable and unconditional. Hence...the reason I asked my original question so I could see some 'real life' examples.
> I know many of you will say I should have this exact discussion with hubby and try to work on the sex piece to see if we can change that. This is my primary concern with that ~~ *Since I can't remember a time where I felt extremely attracted to him, this would not be working on 're-igniting' a spark....it would instead be trying to 'manufacture' a spark. Is this even possible??*
> I also feel extreme guilt for letting this go on so long. I guess it was a bit of denial and a bit of hoping it would fix itself - and then we immersed ourselves in raising kids. I don't think it's a coincidence that our oldest is starting college this fall (!). If I did leave him now, I feel like I've held him back from having the opportunity for someone who does have those kinds of feelings for him, and would be making him start over at almost 50.
> I guess at this point, I'm trying to figure out if I should make the best of what I have (a good, caring husband who would do anything for me)....or take the leap, listen to my heart and jump into the unknown.


Pay attention to the parts that I bolded. It isnt going to matter what changes you husband might make, you are never going to be attracted to him. Nor should he HAVE to change, it sounds like he is a good man. You say that you never felt a real physical chemistry with him, not even in the early honeymoon phase.. if you dont have THEN, you are NEVER going to have it, as that is the exciting, bonding phase in any relationship. The one where you cant keep your hands off each other. So no, you are NOT just going through a phase, sad to say. 

You settled for your husband because you came out of a relationship with a "bad boy", which I imagine was probably not only full of passion, but full of serious issues as well. You felt your husband was the kind of person that a girl is SUPPOSED to be with and marry...am I right? I think it is only fair to him that you file for divorce. I'm sure you have never come right out and told him that you have never felt a real attraction to him, not wanting to hurt him. So he really has no idea how much of his life has essentially been wasted. Let him go, for his sake. If you stay, you WILL end up cheating...I was once where you are, (no desire/attraction for H) and I am embarrassed to say that I did it. Whatever you do...DONT. Its a b!tch of a thing to have to live with forever.


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## elizabeth2205

3Xnocharm said:


> You settled for your husband because you came out of a relationship with a "bad boy", which I imagine was probably not only full of passion, but full of serious issues as well. You felt your husband was the kind of person that a girl is SUPPOSED to be with and marry...am I right?


EXACTLY right. The only thing I'd clarify is that because I saw him as the kind of guy I 'should' marry, I did not feel at the time I was settling. It never crossed my mind at the time to even ponder whether or not there was a strong sexual connection. I'm sure I just assumed that would be there as part of the marriage, and/or didn't realize how important that piece was. 

One of my main worries now is for my kids, especially 17 year old daughter. They've not been exposed to the kind of marriage that I would want for them. It's certainly not been BAD at all, but not what it should be. I don't want them to have this vision of what it can and should be like, but they are 14 and 17...hopefully it's not too late.


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## Anon1111

Wow, hard to know how to respond to this. 

As a man in a passionless marriage, your post is like my worst nightmare. 

Your point about giving you both a chance to start over before you're in your 50s seems like the right train of thought to me. 

You should keep the whole story about how you never really like your husband to yourself when you finally end it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SimplyAmorous

I am feeling sad for your husband .. I married a very nice man..he is as far from a Bad boy as one could possibly get.. 

Though I think every GOOD GUY needs some "EDGE"... some playfulness.. having the ability to make you laugh out loud.. winning your respect... his touch being able to move you.. good looking enough to look him up & down and think







...

Can you tell me.. does ANY OF THIS ABOVE hold true for you in regards to him.. EVER.. maybe a little while dating.. if not, how did you manage to last this long ...20 yrs [email protected]#$% You must have drowned yourself in other pursuits, the kids ?? 



> *elizabeth2205 said*: *It never crossed my mind at the time to even ponder whether or not there was a strong sexual connection. I'm sure I just assumed that would be there as part of the marriage, and/or didn't realize how important that piece was.*





> *The only suggestion I am anticipating is to talk to hubby, try to explain, and hope he can become someone radically different in the romance/sex department. I'm discovering how much I respond to strong masculinity and confidence - and he doesn't have either of these qualities. I'm extremely skeptical that can change.*


. Can you explain how he has NONE of the masculine qualities or confidence.. is there nothing you respect or admire about him ? 



> *I just read 'What Do Women Want', and it looks like I'm in that whole 'not desiring because he's too nice' realm*


 there is a book for this..to help MEN.. 

Just Fu** Me! - What Women Want Men to Know About Taking Control in the Bedroom (A Guide for Couples) - Books... 

I bought this for my H when I wanted him to get rougher, take more Command (something I was going through in Mid life.. he's always just been a Making love man and I wanted more WILDNESS .....he could use a little more Bad Boy too)....we would read some of that together..

I took the route Intheory spoke here... about YOU taking more control/ being the Hot wife..... " be as sexy as possible. Can you voice your "dirtier" side to your "nice" husband?" I devoured this book.. loved it..

Passionista: The Empowered Woman's Guide to Pleasuring a Man 

...I guess this could be a struggle if you have lost attraction though...

Would you say you also have resentment towards him ?

Not trying to book you to death here... but this one is about the back & forth of should I go.. or should I stay...with a careful line of 36 questions and self-analysis techniques ...to help you come to the conclusion ...

Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay: A Step-by-Step Guide to Help You Decide Whether to Stay In or Get Out of Your Relationship: : Books



> Trying to make the agonizing decision whether to get out of a troubled, potentially life-wrecking relationship is the specific ambivalence this book addresses. The reader is offered a focused way to deal with one critical issue at a time rather than sort endlessly through the whole messy bundle of emotional pros and cons.
> 
> Kirshenbaum's expertise allows her to pinpoint the pertinent questions. The Boston psychotherapist, who does relationship counseling, offers a series of them, amplified with guidelines: "Power people poison passion"; "If your partner can't even see what it is about him that makes you want to get out, it's time to get out"; "If it never was very good, it'll never be very good."
> 
> And threaded through the book, which is written in a sympathetic, chatty, accessible style, are validating anecdotes that dramatize how other people have experienced and responded to the same problems the reader is going through.


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## elizabeth2205

Anon1111 said:


> You should keep the whole story about how you never really like your husband to yourself when you finally end it.


Ugh I know it's really awful. The thought of what to say to family & friends is one of the things that keeps me up at night. I have no idea what I'd say.


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## EleGirl

elizabeth2205 said:


> EXACTLY right. The only thing I'd clarify is that because I saw him as the kind of guy I 'should' marry, I did not feel at the time I was settling. It never crossed my mind at the time to even ponder whether or not there was a strong sexual connection. I'm sure I just assumed that would be there as part of the marriage, and/or didn't realize how important that piece was.
> 
> One of my main worries now is for my kids, especially 17 year old daughter. They've not been exposed to the kind of marriage that I would want for them. It's certainly not been BAD at all, but not what it should be. I don't want them to have this vision of what it can and should be like, but they are 14 and 17...hopefully it's not too late.


Leaving your husband now will not give you a chance to model a more passionate marriage to your 17 & 14 year old daughters. 

Divorce will take some time. Then it will take time to meet someone and form a good relationship. You should date a guy 18-24 months at least before you marry him. By that time all of your children will be out of high school.

Your children will most likely not take to a step father very well. Most children don't. Children are the major cause of divorce in second marriages.

Do you have a career with which you can support yourself and your children?


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## Jellybeans

*I honestly don't believe that we ever had real physical chemistry. I can remember not being excited for sex on wedding night..honeymoon, trips, etc.*



3Xnocharm said:


> It isnt going to matter what changes you husband might make, you are never going to be attracted to him. Nor should he HAVE to change, it sounds like he is a good man. You say that you never felt a real physical chemistry with him, not even in the early honeymoon phase.. if you dont have THEN, you are NEVER going to have it, as that is the exciting, bonding phase in any relationship. The one where you cant keep your hands off each other. So no, you are NOT just going through a phase, sad to say.


See, I've never understood why anyone would choose to be in a relationship with (long-term) or go as far as MARRYING someone who for who they have no attraction to. What is the point?

That is crazy to me.

That attraction and desire for your partner is what makes that particular relationship different from all of the rest. I would be pissed off if I was with someone for a long time only to learn they were never attracted to me. UGH.


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## elizabeth2205

Jellybeans said:


> See, I've never understood why anyone would choose to be in a relationship with (long-term) or go as far as MARRYING someone who for who they have no attraction to. What is the point?


I know it's not a good excuse, but at that young age, I didn't at all have a grasp of what I should 'really' be looking for in a mate. Everyone was getting married, I was one of the last, and I met a really nice guy who was into me and I could see him being a great dad and husband. Of course, there was some romance involved, so I really didn't question anything. I do remember there being several years where I honestly believed and told people I'd 'never' get divorced. I definitely was happy, even though we never had sex often. Then, for a long time, I thought there was something wrong with ME for not being interested in sex. It honestly wasn't until the past few years that I really started to dig deeper and explore this issue. For those of you astonished it took me this long, I agree with you, but also it's amazing how fast those child-rearing years can fly by! Plus, I'm sure it's obvious, but I'm really good at compartmentalizing things and 'making things OK'. I'm also a hard core confrontation-phobe and people-pleaser.

I am starting to think I maybe am not giving hubby enough credit. Maybe he would like to be different in the bedroom and didn't think I wanted that. Although my thoughts are in such a state of flux, at this moment, I'm thinking I should at least explore that option.

SimplyAmorous - I really appreciate your points and thank you for sharing those books. They all sound interesting.


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## WorkingOnMe

Jellybeans said:


> *I honestly don't believe that we ever had real physical chemistry. I can remember not being excited for sex on wedding night..honeymoon, trips, etc.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See, I've never understood why anyone would choose to be in a relationship with (long-term) or go as far as MARRYING someone who for who they have no attraction to. What is the point?
> 
> 
> 
> That is crazy to me.
> 
> 
> 
> That attraction and desire for your partner is what makes that particular relationship different from all of the rest. I would be pissed off if I was with someone for a long time only to learn they were never attracted to me. UGH.



It's called rewriting history. Happens all the time. Especially when they have an eye on someone else. This story is not unique.


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## Jellybeans

elizabeth2205 said:


> I know it's not a good excuse, but at that young age, I didn't at all have a grasp of what I should 'really' be looking for in a mate. Everyone was getting married, I was one of the last, and I met a really nice guy who was into me and I could see him being a great dad and husband. Of course, there was some romance involved, so I really didn't question anything. I do remember there being several years where I honestly believed and told people I'd 'never' get divorced. I definitely was happy, even though we never had sex often. Then, for a long time, I thought there was something wrong with ME for not being interested in sex. It honestly wasn't until the past few years that I really started to dig deeper and explore this issue. For those of you astonished it took me this long, I agree with you, but also it's amazing how fast those child-rearing years can fly by! Plus, I'm sure it's obvious, but I'm really good at compartmentalizing things and 'making things OK'. I'm also a hard core confrontation-phobe and people-pleaser.
> 
> I am starting to think I maybe am not giving hubby enough credit. Maybe he would like to be different in the bedroom and didn't think I wanted that. Although my thoughts are in such a state of flux, at this moment, I'm thinking I should at least explore that option.


I hear you, I do. It's just I can't relate to that. Because it's unfathomable to me to marry someone/carry on a LTR with someone who I don't want in my panties/have never gotten excited for. 

You said there was romance - what does that mean, exactly, since you say you have never desired him or been attracted to him?

I've read on TAM before from both sides - women and men alike who say they married someone they weren't ever attracted to and to me is just seems so heinous to do that to someone you supposedly "care" about. It's like robbing someone (and yourself).
I feel for you.


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## Jellybeans

WorkingOnMe said:


> It's called rewriting history. Happens all the time. Especially when they have an eye on someone else. This story is not unique.


Oh I didn't realize she was in an affair. I missed that part of the story.

If that's the case, then yes, it all makes sense.

Otherwise, what an awful way to live.


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## soccermom2three

I agree with 3X. 

When dating and the first few years of marriage, that's when your attraction for your spouse is the highest and usually that's when it's the hottest but for you it was "meh". My belief is that if your initial attraction for your husband was just "meh" you really can't ever go above that feeling.


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## elizabeth2205

WorkingOnMe said:


> It's called rewriting history. Happens all the time. Especially when they have an eye on someone else. This story is not unique.


I certainly am not making up my lack of sexual interest throughout our relationship. I've seen that concept brought up here a lot and have seriously given it thought about whether I might be doing that. There are just too many memories going so far back of avoiding sex, or just doing it to get it over with.


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## soccermom2three

Where did she say that she's having an affair?


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## elizabeth2205

Jellybeans said:


> You said there was romance - what does that mean, exactly, since you say you have never desired him or been attracted to him?


The courtship phase really. Special dates, flowers, etc. Keep in mind, at the time, I truly honestly believed we were a good match. I did not have cold feet, I had no doubts. There was no conscious 'settling' for him. I loved him and still do. We still have enjoyable sex (when we have sex, which is probably every 1-2 months). What's lacking is that extra level of passion and longing that I believe should be part of marriage. I'm 'meh' about spending 'quality' time with him..just never that much fun. I want to want that.


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## elizabeth2205

soccermom2three said:


> Where did she say that she's having an affair?


I mentioned that I began feeling attraction to other men recently.


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## BWBill

_ Everyone was getting married, I was one of the last, and I met a really nice guy who was into me and I could see him being a great dad and husband._

Very common. 

I knew a lot of people who suddenly "fell in love" the last year of college and got married shortly thereafter. Lot of divorces about 4 years later.

Again a wave of marriages for friends in early to mid thirties when "biological clocks" went off.


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## Anon1111

elizabeth2205 said:


> The courtship phase really. Special dates, flowers, etc. Keep in mind, at the time, I truly honestly believed we were a good match. I did not have cold feet, I had no doubts. There was no conscious 'settling' for him. I loved him and still do. We still have enjoyable sex (when we have sex, which is probably every 1-2 months). What's lacking is that extra level of passion and longing that I believe should be part of marriage. I'm 'meh' about spending 'quality' time with him..just never that much fun. I want to want that.


If you really do care about him you will stop this charade.

I don't think you really love him though because everything you write is really all about you. 

- Your need to get married when it was convenient for you (regardless of the poor chump you selected)

- Your need to raise children in a comfortable environment while stringing said chump along

- Now that children are out of the nest, your need to experience passion on your own now that the chump has finished serving your purpose.


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## karole

Poor Guy....


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## Jellybeans

elizabeth2205 said:


> We still have enjoyable sex (when we have sex, which is *probably every 1-2 months*).


Was it always this way? The sexlessness, I mean.


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## elizabeth2205

intheory said:


> What if you discovered your husband has a raunchy side that he can't show you; because you're too "nice" :rofl:


That's what I just started thinking about. I guess stranger things have happened.....!!



> Was it always this way? The sexlessness, I mean.


Yep


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## nuclearnightmare

how do you surmise he feels/has felt about you sexually? I.e. is your husband attracted to you? just wondering if this is all a one-way problem or if you both struggle with sex-drive issues.


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## FrazzledSadHusband

Having been told that I was a great father & good provider, but didn't inspire desire, let me speak from the other side.

Your husband probably wants, to quote Eddie Murphy's raw album, to be with someone who will grab the back of his head and say "I want you to F--- the living sh-- out of me".

You mention your husband called you out on lack of sex, so it sounds like he is trying to work on it. Then you mention the DECEPTION of giving it up more often so he thinks it's better.

Sounds like you have your mind made up no matter what he would do.

I'll cut myself off before I get banned.


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## t_hopper_2012

Your poor husband. You do realize that you've robbed him - really, really robbed him.

He could have spent the last 22 years with somebody that truly loved and desired him. Instead, he married you (believing that your desire for him matched his desire for you.) After two decades, you're reaching the point that you don't need him any more (the kids are nearly raised, so who needs a steady, loving man?) and you've decided that he's too boring and tame.

Everybody deserves to find their true happiness. Your husband's happiness seems to be with you. Yours is somewhere without your husband. Unfortunately, the person that will pay the price for your happiness will be your husband. Let's count the cost:

Broken heart
Physical and mental stress that results from divorce
He'll be approaching 50 and will be at square one as far as relationships go. (Your excited about being able to be alone. How will he feel about being alone?)
Less time spent with his children (have you thought about how custody will be handled?)
Financial cost (he'll probably be paying child support, are you planning on spousal support, too?)

A final question: you didn't start having children until a few years into your marriage. You must have recognized that the spark was lacking at that point. Why didn't you do your husband (and yourself) a favor and deal with all of this back then?


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## unbelievable

Pretty incredible. No real sexual attraction even on your wedding night and this marriage is 20 years old. You feel a little guilty? I would think so. You basically took a very acceptable guy and treated him like an undesirable half-person for a couple decades. That's 20 years he could have spent with someone who actually wanted him. Leave while he still has time to find a real relationship with a real person. If there is any justice in the world, you wouldn't take a nickle from him. He's given 20 years of his life he'll never get back and he gave it in good faith.


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## SimplyAmorous

intheory said:


> Yes, explore that option.
> 
> *You see, I don't believe that "nice" men (and women), really are "nice" when it comes to sex. Nice people are usually considerate, responsible, loving -- all those qualities you desire in a spouse.
> 
> But, when it comes to sex, deep down inside, all of us are at least a little bit nasty. It might be buried; if we believe we have to keep being "nice", in order for our partner to approve of us.
> 
> What if you discovered your husband has a raunchy side that he can't show you; because you're too "nice"* :rofl:


:iagree: with this.. You really WOULDN'T want to be married to a cold uncaring narcissistic man who couldn't give a crap about your emotional needs , or the kids for that matter.. doing his own thing...exchanging one extreme for the other.. I think I'd take the NICE MAN and do all I could to get a rise out of him, corrupting him a bit.. 

What Intheory is trying to say here about being a little bit NASTY ..... we all want some "selfishness' out of our Lover....too nice would be like going to bed with Bob....







..somehow that just doesn't seem appealing !!...

It's like we long for some dirty Ravishing sometimes...something more primal... also called a RAPE fantasy by many...the appeal explained here.....

Women's Rape Fantasies: How Common? What Do They Mean? 


> Rape or near-rape fantasies are central to romance novels, one of the perennial best-selling categories in fiction. These books are often called "bodice-rippers" and have titles like Love's Sweet Savage Fury, which imply at least some degree of force. In them, a handsome cad becomes so overwhelmed by his attraction to the heroine that he loses all control and must have her, even if she refuses--which she does initially, but then eventually melts into submission, desire, and ultimately fulfillment.


Or maybe this example is pushing it for you Elizabeth2205 - you tell me .. 

Found this on the net to explain this SELFISH element in Sex...



> *** I think a lot of people get turned on at the thought of being fiercely sexually desired and get off on their partner's pleasure. Thus they need a partner who "selfishly" desires them and takes pleasure in them rather than self-sacrificingly catering to their needs.
> 
> It's fun to see how your partner "wants" sex -- that's why you're together, right? The 'come on, please me!' look is one of the hottest parts of sex for me. It's so easy to feel good, sexy, and horny at the look of a partner who's so into it she/he doesn't even seem to notice you're there doing something -- a partner who'll say 'why did ya STOP??!' if you even dare stop.
> 
> Indeed, one of the beautiful things about sex is how much the other's pleasure triggers your own. One might imagine it was made to foster harmony.


Are these the things your Husband is missing ??


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## SimplyAmorous

unbelievable said:


> Pretty incredible. No real sexual attraction even on your wedding night and this marriage is 20 years old. You feel a little guilty? I would think so. *You basically took a very acceptable guy and treated him like an undesirable half-person for a couple decades. * That's 20 years he could have spent with someone who actually wanted him. Leave while he still has time to find a real relationship with a real person. If there is any justice in the world, you wouldn't take a nickle from him. He's given 20 years of his life he'll never get back and he gave it in good faith.


These are some hard things to read here in this thread.. I'm sure... Yet there is so much TRUTH to how we treat another. .. to what comes back to us.. or how one slowly slips away... the spark that COULD HAVE BEEN.. the passiveness , allowing it to slowly take root in you both... turning away.. not coming together -even "fighting" for a spark....how deeply such things can affect our lives... our attitudes, slowing becoming numb.... where had this good man been treated with love , respect and ongoing desire (oh what it means to a husband!)... he could be a very different man in front of you today.. 

Elizabeth.. look deep into yourself here.. what part in this have you played to breaking your husband's spirit over the years??

Have you put yourself in his shoes.... starting on your Honeymoon night... no "oomph" for him...likely something in him died that night even...

And he was too nice (and may I add, should NOT have been) remaining in this marriage.. where he KNEW his wife would have chosen another.. just wanting to settle down as all her friends were getting married .... that he doesn't have what it takes to please his own wife, the mother of his children.... devastating... 

When we realize we are "NOT ENOUGH"... that we'll never be enough.. . he likely grew into a "shell of a man" that should have never been... I imagine he has many regrets as you do at this stage in his life. 

We are meant to bring out the very best in each other, to comfort each other, to validate each other, support each other.. 

I'm very sure your Husband also is thinking of other women.. no doubt about this.. with the sad state / years of disconnect... all he has is his fantasies to give him a little warmth... just as you think of other men.

*Were you a couple who just never really fought ??** Both on the passive side? * allowing "apathy" to creep in.. growing .....to smother you both emotionally .... Too often this is the result... he's resolved to live his days in "what is" feeling hopeless to the whole situation... or to honor vows.. It's a very sad thing when a couple comes to this place.. but I suspect this is what has happened in your marriage...


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## anonmd

This sounds like a two part question to me. You complain about low frequency and passionlessness for 20 years yet your husband voiced his concern about your lack of desire 3 years ago. This screams to me that the guy is not a testosterone-less monk and could be roused out of his lethargy. Also, you are not complaining that you regularly come on to him and get turned down. 

You on the other hand don't have the spark. That's on you, we are told all the time that female attraction is in their heads. You say it isn't bad once you get in to it, this is called reactive desire. You also say you never look at him lustily, I would think you could change this. Put it on you calendar, think about sex, read some romance novels, read about some role play idea or whatever. Then go after your husband. Do this a few times in the next month or two. 

Then talk to your husband about what he can do. If it is clear you WANT a better intimate relationship I bet he'd be willing to listen if it is obvious you are making an effort. It's a lot easier to get a male with no testosterone deficiency more active than a female with no desire. So figure out what turns you on then help him to be what you want.


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## tryingpatience

WorkingOnMe said:


> It's called rewriting history. Happens all the time. Especially when they have an eye on someone else. This story is not unique.


This was my thought at first seeing it from a BS side of things.



elizabeth2205 said:


> The courtship phase really. Special dates, flowers, etc. Keep in mind, at the time, I truly honestly believed we were a good match. I did not have cold feet, I had no doubts. There was no conscious 'settling' for him. I loved him and still do. We still have enjoyable sex (when we have sex, which is probably every 1-2 months). What's lacking is that extra level of passion and longing that I believe should be part of marriage. I'm 'meh' about spending 'quality' time with him..just never that much fun. I want to want that.


You mentioned that you've been noticing other people recently. Do you have other friends with better more passionate marriages? You read those books mentioned and you identified something about him being too nice. That's something you could work with to see if there is anything left for you in this marriage. You looking around isn't going to help.

From what I'm reading though it sounds like this isn't going to work for you any longer. You need to be honest with him and tell him.


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## vellocet

Ok so in a nutshell, you are one of those bad boy lovers who married a "nice guy" for stability only, as you admitted there never was any real chemistry between you and your husband.

So here you are pinning your decision to leave the marriage on whether you will fine what you want, and if you don't think you will find what you want, you'll continue to hold your husband hostage in this marriage.

All of your questions of wondering if you will find happiness, someone else, etc......are irrelevant.

Set your husband free, then go out in the world and take your chances since he is too nice for you. Your fear of the unknown and your desires for wanting to be with other men should not be your husband's problem.




> I do not feel a need to stay until I find that 'passionate someone'. At my age (47), I realize that there is no guarantee I would ever find that person.
> Even if I never found someone else, the thought of being on my own is something that appeals to me


Then its real simple. Nothing else to discuss. ...............Get a divorce.


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## vellocet

unbelievable said:


> Pretty incredible. No real sexual attraction even on your wedding night and this marriage is 20 years old. You feel a little guilty? I would think so. You basically took a very acceptable guy and treated him like an undesirable half-person for a couple decades. That's 20 years he could have spent with someone who actually wanted him. Leave while he still has time to find a real relationship with a real person. If there is any justice in the world, you wouldn't take a nickle from him. He's given 20 years of his life he'll never get back and he gave it in good faith.


:iagree:

Talk about wasting what should have been the best years of another person's life.


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## unbelievable

I think "stability" is another word for "financial support" in many cases.


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## elizabeth2205

unbelievable said:


> I think "stability" is another word for "financial support" in many cases.


Well, not in this case...

I appreciate everyone's opinions very much. As I've mentioned. I do take full responsibility for not addressing this issue much earlier, but it seems like there's a perception among many who commented that there was some kind of 'malicious intent' on my part. My only intent all along was to make the marriage work. There was never one moment where I thought I needed to 'get something out of him until he is no longer useful to me', as was asserted in various ways above. I also have tried to explain to him what my issues are, but it's such a double-edged sword....

Lack of confidence turns me off < ---> my lack of interest causes less confidence in him

I definitely have many take-aways from this discussion....most notably that I have not explored all options when it comes to working on our sex life and lack of passion. I'm not exactly sure yet what that is going to look like, but I will definitely be trying to work on this before I make any long-term decisions. I will be reading some of the books suggested, and probably asking my husband to as well. Maybe a sex therapist? In any case...this has been very enlightening for me. Maybe we can turn this around and maybe not, but at least I now have some belief that it's at least worth a try. I didn't have that feeling before.


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## t_hopper_2012

It's not just lack of sexual attraction. You said that you don't even like spending time with him. Are you going to work on that, too?


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## unbelievable

"I honestly don't believe that we ever had real physical chemistry. I can remember not being excited for sex on wedding night..honeymoon, trips, etc."

"Sex is not bad once I get into it... it's just that I almost never look at him lustfully...that is the part that bothers me."

"The only suggestion I am anticipating is to talk to hubby, try to explain, and hope he can become someone radically different in the romance/sex department. I'm discovering how much I respond to strong masculinity and confidence - and he doesn't have either of these qualities."

Not sure how much stronger a man could be than to trudge off daily to work and sacrifice for his wife and family, knowing the entire time that she wasn't attracted to him. Would your life be improved if you had a handsome, muscular felon you had to support in between stints in prison? Being beat up occasionally would probably be exciting. Unannounced visits by a SWAT team would be exciting. 
Sometimes what we think we want isn't what we really need. These bad boys might give the appearance of strength and confidence but most I've met were supported by women, couldn't hold a decent job, had little involvement with their kids, and spent much of their lives asking a corrections officer if they could go potty. Getting into trouble is easy. Losing control is easy. Avoiding responsibility is easy. Telling your boss to go to hell is easy. Daily doing what is best for your family, regardless of how you personally feel takes a real man. Coming home to a woman who offers little to no love for 20 years just because that's what you promised to do takes a man. Hopping on a Harley and leaving at the first sign of trouble, bouncing from woman to woman as the mood strikes, buying tattoos, dope, or liquor instead of groceries, are actions of a child. 
Over 75% of Americans on welfare are women and most of those had one or more relationships with a bad boy. Your devoted husband may not be the most thrilling thing around but he's unlikely to leave you dismembered in the crawl space of your home. When you're 90 and need someone to feed you or change your diaper, he'll be there. The bad boys will long be in the ground and if they were alive, they'd be looking out for number one.


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## FrazzledSadHusband

One more thought occurred to me. How have you responded when your husband tried something out of the norm? Do you ridicule his ideas? Did you reject him for getting a little kinky?

When he called you out a few years back, and you marginally got better, he probably thinks "THAT"S ALL THE MORE SHE"S CAPABLE OF". 

He probably has resigned himself to being married to a cold fish.


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## PreRaphaelite

OP, you have "nice-zoned" your husband, and because of it you have habituated yourself not to find anything about him interesting, exciting, desirable, or generally something that is really positive about what he does his family. He's "a good man" etc. etc. Those are part of the nice-zoning which has trapped your husband. None of these qualities are ones that you see as masculine, and that appears to be what you are looking for.

If passion is what you want, then you are looking for a new man, one who makes you fell like you have never felt before. 

I'm not going to say just be honest with your husband and end the marriage, but I am suggesting that you recognize the fact that you are already pre-disposed towards something that has turned you away from your husband.


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## FrazzledSadHusband

Intheory = I love your signature. Unfortunately I had to find out the hard way. Wasn't until I started being selfish that things turned around.

*"Strange isn't it. You can enjoy pleasing others and in turn they lose respect and treat you like a doormat, you get selfish and they look up to you. I'll never understand it."*

:iagree:


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## ConflictedAboutItAll

How do they fix themselves, their marriage and their husbands? What does that look like? I get working out yourself but doesn't the other party need to be willing to try too?


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## Anon Pink

There is a huge difference between a bad boy and a nice guy. There are lots of levels in between.

It is difficult to remain attracted to a nice guy who lacks passion. The nicer and more passionless he is, the more difficult it is.

Elizebeth, your first order of business is to commit to doing everything you possibly can to make your marriage work, and that means some serious honesty with your H. Not the kind where you say you've never felt attraction to him, because that will crush him. 

I think you might be rewriting history just a little bit there. However, if you really believe that you never felt attracted him, never experienced that heart swelling when he walked into the room, never felt like a lost puppy if he was away...then you need to walk away now because you can fix what never existed.

But even if you do commit to fixing this marriage, you've got a slim chance of making it work.


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## SimplyAmorous

I was looking for a passionless article to read.. just to give some ideas.. I stumbled upon this write up..

DO YOU HAVE A PASSIONLESS RELATIONSHIP BUT STAY BECAUSE YOU LOVE YOUR PARTNER? 



> I used to be in a relationship that lacked romance and passion. Looking back, maybe, just maybe...there was something I could have done about it. You may have more power than you think you have. Get out every trick in the bag and strut your stuff. I love this quote....
> 
> "You are never more vibrant than when you are vulnerable; never more beautiful than when you are open." Great rewards often take great risks. Show that man what you're made of and if after a few tries, he's still not interested, at least he'll know what he's missing.
> 
> And, it would be time to have a real heart to heart conversation to see what's missing in the relationship. Love and friendship are essential in a relationship, but sex, romance and intimacy are equally as important to your soul.
> 
> We women need it like we need air to breath. Maybe he's missing it too - it never hurts to try. Well, that's not always the truth, sometimes it does hurt if we're disappointed by the outcomes, but at least you will have the satisfaction of knowing you did all you could. God bless and good luck.


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## SimplyAmorous

Also ...if you're still wanting to give this all you can... this would be a great marital book for you & he to read together.. each chapter lays out our 10 emotional needs... the importance of each...and how when they are lacking, human nature is susceptible to numbing, infidelities, resentment, depression...etc..

If you feel there is something to work with...

His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-Proof Marriage  ~ these are the Core Emotional Needs addressed in that book....



> 10 Emotional needs:
> 
> 
> 1. *Admiration*
> 2. *Affection*
> 3. *Conversation*
> 4. *Domestic support*
> 5. *Family commitment*
> 6.* Financial support*
> 7. *Honesty and openness*
> 8. *Physical attractiveness*
> 9. *Recreational companionship*
> 10. *Sexual fulfillment*


If you print these worksheets out, you can both fill them out...and start REALLY TALKING about your issues and how to change this dynamic.. 








 Emotional Needs Questionnaire









........


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## vellocet

unbelievable said:


> "*I honestly don't believe that we ever had real physical chemistry. I can remember not being excited for sex on wedding night..honeymoon, trips, e*tc."


Exactly. This is the OPs problem. She married him because he is a nice stable guy because the "bad boy" didn't treat her well.

So nice stable guy deserves to be set free to find happiness.

There is no fixing the marriage. There was never one to begin with. OP married nice guy out of convenience. IMO, the only solution is divorce. Let NG move one to someone that would be excited about sex on their wedding night, honeymoon, etc.


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## Jellybeans

My feeling is he can probably pick up on the fact that she's not real passionate about him. So he's either ok with just tolerating it or has wished he had a more va-va-voom relationship with his wife.

Either way, it sounds like they both settled for "coasting." But they both chose it and they both have stayed.

She said she never has had "lustful" feelings when staring at her husband. And that the sexlessness (once every 1-2 months) has been that way from the beginning. 

This wouldn't work for me. But I know every couple is different. It seems to work for them. Hence the 20 years together.

Different strokes, I guess.


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## GusPolinski

Jellybeans said:


> My feeling is he can probably pick up on the fact that she's not real passionate about him. So he's either ok with just tolerating it or has wished he had a more va-va-voom relationship with his wife.
> 
> Either way, it sounds like they both settled for "coasting." But they both chose it and they both have stayed.
> 
> She said she never has had "lustful" feelings when staring at her husband. And that the sexlessness (once every 1-2 months) has been that way from the beginning.
> 
> This wouldn't work for me. But I know every couple is different. It seems to work for them. Hence the 20 years together.
> 
> *Different strokes, I guess.*


And a lot of 'em.

:smthumbup:


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## Marduk

So, if your husband bought a motorbike, got ripped, became self-confidant to the point of being ****y, and just ripped your clothes off in the bedroom... or whatever the "bad boy" stuff is that you find attractive...

Would that change things?

If so, you need to level with him. You need X and Y in order to be attracted.


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## karole

Buy your husband 2 books to read: "No More Mr. Nice Guy" and "MMSLP." 

Also, you aren't having enough sex with your husband. You are almost in what is considered a sexless marriage. Why don't you step up the sex for a few months and see if it helps. Plan some things together for just the two of you. Weekends away, etc. If you start showing some enthusiasm about your sex life and marriage, your husband will likely do the same.


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## DTO

intheory said:


> You should have probably married the "bad boy", and then dealt with any issues that would have resulted from that choice. At least it would have been honest.
> 
> Instead, you played it safe, married the "nice guy". And now, you are dealing with the issues that resulted from that choice. Dishonest with both yourself and your husband (poor guy).
> 
> Here's my vote. Stay with your husband and be as sexy as possible. Can you voice your "dirtier" side to your "nice" husband? If it feels scary and embarrassing; you're probably on the right track. You might be surprised what you find out about your husband.


I agree and am firmly in the camp of "love is an act". You said the sex is bad yet it is he who complains about low frequency. It seems your lack of attraction is the "egg" rather than the "chicken" here, and you are blaming him for something you caused.

The problem I see is that you deceived him. He married you in good faith. A divorce by you says that not only did deceive him back then, but you refuse to honor your commitment now. Those are character issues IMO. He may forgive you, but the truth is you caused him to waste the most virile years of his life on someone who does not want or appreciate it.

OTOH, you can be in the marriage 110%, meet his need cheerfully, and know you lived up to the commitment you made to a great guy rather than screwing him over.


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## Jellybeans

DTO said:


> The problem I see is that you deceived him. He married you in good faith. A divorce by you says that not only did deceive him back then, but you refuse to honor your commitment now. Those are character issues IMO. He may forgive you, but the truth is you caused him to waste the most virile years of his life on someone who does not want or appreciate it.


Eh, just playing devil's advocate here - he chose to marry her already know they didn't have a "passionate" sex life - she said the sex once every two-three months has been this way since the beginning. He has chosen to stay all these years, knowing full well that was the score. (they both have).

Like I said up there, this wouldn't be my choice - but apparently it has worked for them.

That's the thing about marriage though - divorce can happen at any time. Wouldn't wish it on anyone, but at any point, one person can opt out with a divorce. Not very romantic, but realistic.

I hear what you are saying about her "bailing" on the commitment, but if she is this unhappy, and not into him, would you seriously think he's better off if they stayed together? Them divorcing may give him the best sex life he's ever experienced with another woman (women). He may do things he's never dreamed of.  Her, too.

Not everyone stays married. Not that I'm advocating divorce, but marriage takes two.


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## DTO

Jellybeans said:


> Eh, just playing devil's advocate here - he chose to marry her already know they didn't have a "passionate" sex life - she said the sex once every two-three months has been this way since the beginning. He has chosen to stay all these years, knowing full well that was the score. (they both have).
> 
> Like I said up there, this wouldn't be my choice - but apparently it has worked for them.
> 
> That's the thing about marriage though - divorce can happen at any time. Wouldn't wish it on anyone, but at any point, one person can opt out with a divorce. Not very romantic, but realistic.
> 
> I hear what you are saying about her "bailing" on the commitment, but if she is this unhappy, and not into him, would you seriously think he's better off if they stayed together? Them divorcing may give him the best sex life he's ever experienced with another woman (women). He may do things he's never dreamed of.  Her, too.
> 
> Not everyone stays married. Not that I'm advocating divorce, but marriage takes two.


Having been in a similar situation, I can say with conviction that the lack of good faith on her part makes all the difference. The bad sex is tolerable (at least on a temporary basis) when you think you're both pulling in the same direction, thinking she wants to please you.

As far as whether they would be better off apart, that depends on her attitude. This seems to be a situation where he still wants to be with her. Thus, this marriage survives or dies on her attitude, which so far seems pretty poor. The low sex frequency since the beginning speaks volumes. She says he complained about the low sex a few years back, and I have to think that is not the first time, yet she did not step up.

The bottom line is I (like 99.9% of us) know that marriage is about a lifelong commitment based on love in all its forms. I upheld my commitment to my ex for years despite her unwillingness to consistently meet my needs. That the OP created this issue, has a guy who still wants to be with her despite the condition of the marriage, and is talking divorce without getting in 100% is mind-boggling.

I would be ashamed of myself if I left with that level of effort. Yes marriage takes two, but one (the H) is in. What will she do with that?


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Anon Pink said:


> There is a huge difference between a bad boy and a nice guy. There are lots of levels in between.
> 
> It is difficult to remain attracted to a nice guy who lacks passion. The nicer and more passionless he is, the more difficult it is.
> 
> Elizebeth, your first order of business is to commit to doing everything you possibly can to make your marriage work, and that means some serious honesty with your H. Not the kind where you say you've never felt attraction to him, because that will crush him.
> 
> I think you might be rewriting history just a little bit there. However, if you really believe that you never felt attracted him, never experienced that heart swelling when he walked into the room, never felt like a lost puppy if he was away...then you need to walk away now because you can fix what never existed.
> 
> But even if you do commit to fixing this marriage, you've got a slim chance of making it work.


in principle this gets offtrack of the thread but - sidebar:

you list 2 variables: niceness and passion. The "passion is attractive" I think I get. but it is fascinating that you seemingly recognize that "bad" is more attractive than"good" in a man.
of course you could be right on. but one way a man can be "bad" is to harm others. is that attractive? i.e. what does "bad" really mean?


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## northernlights

I was on the other side of an unenthusiastic honeymoon night (he preferred to stay out drinking with his friends. I went upstairs to the room by myself. Eventually he joined me, but was drunk and tired, and the night was kind of a bust). 20 years of a clinically sexless by definition marriage (I think the definition of clinical sexlessness is less than 10 times per year?) is a lot to overcome. 

That your husband only asked for therapy 17 years into the marriage raises red flags for me. What did he say then? What did he ask for? Why did he wait 17 years?

It looks like you've gotten a lot of good advice here, wishing you the best.


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## Mr.Fisty

I think on some level that he knew that his wife was really never that into him but he married her anyways. Love makes us do unintelligent things at times. I think it was always more of a one-sided love. He has low self-esteem to put up with no passion. I don't think it is really about bad boys or the good guy, but being assertive. He has been okay with receiving crumbs for all these years. That speaks more to his self worth.

Unfortunately, 30 percent of marriage is one or either person settling for someone because they are afraid of being alone. The choice to marry him is wrong, but to stay married because you make a bad choice is not a good way to live your life either. It is like saying, I married someone who is neglectful towards me, and I am stuck with that person because marriage should be forever. There should at least be some kind of love mixed with infatuation with your spouse to get the romance going. Rarely does marriage or any relationship end on both people wanting the marriage to end.

To even have a chance of saving this marriage, she needs to find a way to be attracted to him. I think if he learned to be more assertive, confident in himself whether she leaves him or not, will help bring some attraction into the marriage. She has to be honest with him. He has to stop be willing to settle for platonic. He can be a nice guy and be confident, and assertive at the same time.

Sometimes people change and grow as they age. Relationship is about compatibility also. None of us has any hindsight into the future to see how we will change, or how our spouse will change. We have to learn to adapt with what life brings our way. Love is selfish too. He knows that she is not attracted to him and wants to leave him. Her happiness is not a concern as much as he wants her not to leave him. She wants to leave because she wants more than a platonic relationship. If she stays for his sake, she will not be happy and he sounds like he is okay with that, and if she leaves, he will be devastated.


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## ET1SSJonota

This thread has been extremely hard for me to read. Mostly because the OP's situation represents my biggest fear. In my relationship, I'm the one on the other side, thinking just about EVERYTHING in my life is awesome, except my partner doesn't display any real passion for me, and I (almost)never feel like I'm turning her on. 

On major difference in my relationship is that I KNOW there was a period of time that I was. However, I'm not sure I buy 100% of the OP's story that it was always low. I don't think you can reconcile her statements of satisfaction/fulfillment at the onset of the marriage with a complete lack of intimacy. I highly suspect some serious marital history re-writing due to the chemicals involved in her "new found" interest in other men. 

To the OP directly: Do take the advice already given to NEVER tell your husband the entirety of what you have shared here, PARTICULARLY if you decide to end it. No matter how you spin it, rationalize it, justify it in your own mind - to him you will have duped him out of 2 decades just to be secure while you raised children. Malicious intent or not, there really aren't too many logical reasons to have done what you did under the circumstances (again, assuming your recollections are accurate). And that's where we men operate from when analyzing these situations. 

Hoping that that end game is farther from play than it sounds like, there is a lot you can do to try and ignite your own passions. DO be honest that you'd like to spice things up more in the bedroom. That's a positive suggestion, and indicates you want him MORE. I've read many times on this and other sites that each person needs to be responsible for their own desire, their own pleasure, and ultimately their own satisfaction. OWN that, and communicate with your partner to try to get him where you need him to be to rev your engine. 

Need butcher? Encourage him to work out, gain muscle. Need more "manliness"? Encourage him to start woodworking, or get an old muscle car. Need more take charge intimacy? Spell it out, explicitly. Etc. You get the picture. There may be a lot to this man that he has restrained, IN ORDER to be the "good guy" that many were raised to be.


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## elizabeth2205

I just came back to read through this thread again. It's been almost five months since I posted it, and I don't have much good news to report. I did try to spice up the sex life a little. The outcome was some good sex & enjoyment with no increase in intimacy or sexual feelings towards my husband. It was physical enjoyment, but I just do not feel the desire for intimacy with him. When he shows emotion and tries to be intimate with me, I just don't 'feel' that inside me and back out of the situation as gently as I can. Now I'm at the point where I'm trying to figure out how I am going to actually have this discussion with him. I will go to counseling with him if he requests it, however I'm going to have to be honest about my feelings. I cannot pretend anymore. Physical intimacy and connection simply was not something I craved for most of my adult life, but I do now, and I would rather be alone than spend the rest of my life knowing it wasn't a part of my marriage. I already feel like I'm pretending to be someone I'm not, and I don't think I can do it much longer.

In looking back on my comments above about him being too nice....I really don't think that's it. I'm a very nice person and so is he. I wouldn't want to be with anyone who wasn't. Nice guys can be sexy. I think it's simply a lack of physical chemistry from the beginning. There were enough other good parts of the relationship to make it last as long as it has, such as compatibility, kindness, humor, amazing children, shared values & interests, etc. However, now that I've realized the true nature of my feelings, I don't think I'll be able to make those things enough any more.

A good friend of mine, married longer than me, just told me a story about going to see her husband who had been working out of the country for a few months. She described getting off the airplane and walking to their meeting place with her heart beating so fast because she was so excited to see him. The thought of being married to someone, but NOT having that kind of feeling just is sad to me. 

I don't have an exact plan right now. Our daughter is graduating from HS next month & then going away to college at end of summer, and I really don't want to blow things up during her last couple of months at home (although we'll still have son home for 4 more yrs). I'm hoping that I'll be able to use the months to figure out what to say to him. I know he'll be hurt, but I honestly want to minimize it as much as I can. I don't think it would be fair to either of us for me to stay...he deserves someone who gets butterflies when they see him. 

I can't go back in time and make this happen sooner in our relationship, although in some ways I wish I could. I took quite a beating in this thread for 'letting it go on so long' and 'wasting his life'. I know in my heart that I did not intentionally do this. Coming to this point in our lives has been a process, as we've both grown together and apart. I choose to look at the many, many positives of our lives together and hope that, at least in time, he will be able to as well.

If anyone who has been through this on either side would like to share any suggestions, I would be very interested in hearing.


----------



## Faithful Wife

There's not really any easy way to leave someone...but waiting a few months for the older child to get her bearings is a good idea. When you decide it is time to pull the plug, you need to just do it and let your husband feel however he feels about it. Don't try to placate him or minimize his feelings OR make any false promises. If you aren't feeling it and are sure of it, I would advise against counseling. It will be ok again eventually. He will need lots of patience and love, but never ever give him false hope.

In the meantime and for quite awhile after you leave him, please don't start talking to other guys or do anything that would hurt him further. Give yourself 6 months to a year before you get into anything new with someone else.


----------



## elizabeth2205

Faithful Wife said:


> If you aren't feeling it and are sure of it, I would advise against counseling. It will be ok again eventually. He will need lots of patience and love, but never ever give him false hope.


Thank you for this point...I hadn't thought of possibly going to counseling with him in this way. I just want to do my best to honor his wishes if he requests it. I've been thinking about this for so long, and he will only be able to start processing it when I begin this conversation.


----------



## elizabeth2205

Wow, Bobby....I am a woman who is sad about not being attracted to her husband, and you assume I treat him like garbage and that I deserve to be smacked around? I guess we differ in our definitions of confidence and masculinity.


----------



## aine

elizabeth2205 said:


> Wow, Bobby....I am a woman who is sad about not being attracted to her husband, and you assume I treat him like garbage and that I deserve to be smacked around? I guess we differ in our definitions of confidence and masculinity.


Elizabeth are you going through perimenopause? (you sound as if you are in the age group). It can really mess with your hormones and libido. It might be amazing what some HRT and testosterone can do. The sad fact is if you leave your husband you may get some hot stud muffin who is great for sex but treats you like crap. I think you have to really dig a bit deeper. I feel very sorry for your husband because he sounds like a great guy. Dont give up on finding out whether there is more to this before you leave him.


----------



## ET1SSJonota

So, I know this may be an extreme over-simplification, but you want to leave a good man because you don't get butterflies?

I'll say that at least you seem to want to leave honorably. Better this than an exit affair - although such an affair may be all you need to see what it is that you are thinking about throwing away.

You mention your friend visiting her husband abroad. That implies time, and space away. Have you tried that? "Separate" for a while, and do it ALL on your own just like you would divorce. No dating - just live life single. See what it's like without your partner and the support they provide. But you must not cheat, and lean on him for anything. 

My mother left my father about 7 years ago, for reasons not dissimilar to what you describe. For the most part of those 7 years, she has seemed miserable. Constantly complaining about exactly those things in life that my father used to provide (and sadly on occasion still does). 

The basic reality is there is probably no magic person out there who will still tickle your insides every time you see him for 20+ years. You just might not be that type - only the "initial" stages feel that way to you, and those feelings all too easily go by the wayside once it becomes "normal" and "mundane". Or, if there is, it comes with an at least semi-conscious decision to feel that way about them.

So with the admittance of a healthy, partnered relationship with a decent guy - recognize that you're giving up stability and security for a fairy tale. If that doesn't stop you - nothing probably will. You just have to "get it out of your system". Sadly, that will also eject your husband from said system.


----------



## elizabeth2205

> The basic reality is there is probably no magic person out there who will still tickle your insides every time you see him for 20+ years.


No, I'm not at all expecting that ALL the time. But, once in a while would be nice.



> So with the admittance of a healthy, partnered relationship with a decent guy - recognize that you're giving up stability and security for a fairy tale.


Is it really a fairy tale to want a partner that I'm excited to see, to plan trips with, to have sex with? One of the questions I've been asking myself, as kind of a barometer, is...if he asked me to renew our vows, could I do that in good conscience? The answer is no and has been consistently for me since I've been asking myself for a few years. 

ET1SSJonota, I'm curious what kinds of things your mother complains about that your father used to provide?


----------



## elizabeth2205

aine, I really appreciate your helpful comments. Yes, I think I am in perimenopause, however my marriage problems have been going on a lot longer than that.



aine said:


> The sad fact is if you leave your husband you may get some hot stud muffin who is great for sex but treats you like crap.


There seems to be a theme, that in order to have a partner you're attracted to, they will end up treating you like crap. Isn't there any woman out there who is extremely attracted to her husband, and that husband is a good man??

I also wanted to clarify that I would NOT be leaving with the sole intention of replacing H with some hot dude. As I mentioned earlier, I know that I would have to be OK being alone if I leave. I realize that that is a possibility with all of this. I just feel like I'm living a lie right now and not sure that I can continue that indefinitely.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Bobby5000 said:


> "I'm discovering how much I respond to strong masculinity and confidence - and he doesn't have either of these qualities."
> 
> Basically she needs someone to treat her like crap for a while. What do you figure a few one night stands and he has to leave early, or ignores her texts. Maybe she'll find the tough guy who after she nags a little too much, smacks her around a little.


Huh. Somehow my husband manages to be masculine and confident while also being awesome and not an abusive scum bag. :scratchhead:


----------



## samyeagar

elizabeth2205 said:


> aine, I really appreciate your helpful comments. Yes, I think I am in perimenopause, however my marriage problems have been going on a lot longer than that.
> 
> 
> 
> There seems to be a theme, that in order to have a partner you're attracted to, they will end up treating you like crap. *Isn't there any woman out there who is extremely attracted to her husband, and that husband is a good man??*
> 
> I also wanted to clarify that I would NOT be leaving with the sole intention of replacing H with some hot dude. As I mentioned earlier, I know that I would have to be OK being alone if I leave. I realize that that is a possibility with all of this. I just feel like I'm living a lie right now and not sure that I can continue that indefinitely.


Of course there are, and by this age, pretty much all those men are married. Your husband sounds like he will soon be one of those rare ones that isn't...but only for a bit. He'll be snatched right up, and will be that man for some other women.


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> Of course there are, and by this age, pretty much all those men are married. Your husband sounds like he will soon be one of those rare ones that isn't...but only for a bit. He'll be snatched right up, and will be that man for some other women.


Wow sam...why would you try to spin it like this? :scratchhead:

Elizabeth will similarly be snatched up by a man who *does* have the mojo she's looking for.

They can both be happy with other people. Why try to demonize her?


----------



## NobodySpecial

elizabeth2205 said:


> There seems to be a theme, that in order to have a partner you're attracted to, they will end up treating you like crap. Isn't there any woman out there who is extremely attracted to her husband, and that husband is a good man??


Me. This jerk = attractive thing is pure myth.


----------



## EleGirl

elizabeth2205,

Have you read the book "Divorce Busting"? I think it might help you look at things a bit different. Also, pay special attention to the chapter and introducing change and the 180. (Not the 180 liked to in my signature block below.

Another book that might help you is "His Needs, Her Needs". But for you I suggest starting with "Divorce Busting".

Tell us about the other parts of your life. Do you have friends you do things with? What are your hobbies and passions outside of your marriage?


----------



## Faithful Wife

elizabeth2205 said:


> There seems to be a theme, that in order to have a partner you're attracted to, they will end up treating you like crap. Isn't there any woman out there who is extremely attracted to her husband, and that husband is a good man??


I have really only heard MEN saying this. 

Whereas, in my own experience and that of my close girlfriend (plus dozens of acquaintances), there are plenty of fish in the sea and YES YOU CAN find exactly the type of GOOD man you are looking for, one who also lights your fire. :smthumbup:


----------



## Faithful Wife

Sorry meant to say "whereas, in my own experience and that of my close girlfriendS"....as in plural, as in many close friends who have gotten out of relationships/marriages and went on to find exactly what they were looking for. And hey, guess what? Their exes ALSO found what THEY were looking for.

Seriously, what is behind this trying to put FEAR into women that they won't find a good man who is also sexy?


----------



## Marduk

Faithful Wife said:


> I have really only heard MEN saying this.
> 
> Whereas, in my own experience and that of my close girlfriend (plus dozens of acquaintances), there are plenty of fish in the sea and YES YOU CAN find exactly the type of GOOD man you are looking for, one who also lights your fire. :smthumbup:


OK, here's one guy's perspective that swallowed the "red pill" and then puked it back up.

When some guys (like me) get married, they become "nice guys." And the connotation there isn't so much that being a nice guy is a bad thing as much as a passive-aggressive hidden contract settles in in his mind... "if I do X more, I'll get more sex."

Where X=dishes, gifting shiny things, whatever. 

The problem is, it doesn't always work. It may work if the woman is overworked at home (which may be the case), but it also may also be a rationalization or excuse for the reality.

I know, because when I did the dishes more, then it became about the laundry. Or the size of our house. Or a bigger ring. Or whatever...

When what it was really about is the fact that I was out of shape, lazy, flopping on the couch every night, didn't initiate sex very... sexily, and had dropped most of my individuality and self-confidence off at the door.

Now, I may be off-base, but for the women I've talked to about this, a lack of self-confidence, motivation, and not taking care of yourself, plus poking your wife in the ribs and saying "wanna do it?"...

Isn't really gonna light her fire, you know what I mean?

So, I'm with the guys that they need to get in shape, be attractive, have confidence, and initiate sex the way that they'd like their wives to initiate sex -- directly, with confidence, and to keep the whole relationship sexy, not just on Sundays at 7 after the news.

Where I part company is somehow treating women like "plates" to be "spun" and "negging" is a good thing.

Because we're all just people, you know?


----------



## elizabeth2205

EleGirl said:


> Have you read the book "Divorce Busting"? I think it might help you look at things a bit different. Also, pay special attention to the chapter and introducing change and the 180.


I have not...will definitely check it out, thank you.



> [Tell us about the other parts of your life. Do you have friends you do things with? What are your hobbies and passions outside of your marriage?


I work, I have many friends, great family, best kids in the world (14 & 17), in 2 book clubs. Can't say I really I have a hobby or passion...maybe reading. 

One of the things that bugs me about H is that he doesn't have friends or hobbies. When I do plan things with my friends, he gets pouty and all 'poor me, you never want to do anything with me'. I think this is big reason I fantasize about living on my own....I get so sick of the passive aggressive guilt trips! When we do have 'date nights', it's just 'meh', never a great time. I have spent years encouraging him to make more friends, do things with guys he likes being around, get a freakin' hobby, anything. Instead, I feel like I can't go out with my friends without guilt unless I've pacified him by 'putting in time' with him first. This happens even with activities I'd rather do by myself, such as exercise. I really like to put on my music and 'escape' when I'm running or walking. He takes this personally and it drives me crazy. He always wants to do everything with me and I feel smothered (and of course guilt for not wanting to spend time with my husband). 

Of course, it sounds logical to just think if we could just make some compromises about these things, we'd both be happier. However, the problem is that I simply don't enjoy doing things as a couple..it feels forced and awkward. And, this brings me back to my main problem....ugh!


----------



## elizabeth2205

marduk said:


> Now, I may be off-base, but for the women I've talked to about this, a lack of self-confidence, motivation, and not taking care of yourself, plus poking your wife in the ribs and saying "wanna do it?"...Isn't really gonna light her fire, you know what I mean?


YES!!! 

A couple years ago, hubby did get motivated and got in better shape...not sure it was enough to change our fundamental dynamic, but it was waaaaay better. Didn't last, though...probably because he didn't get the immediate results he was looking for with our relationship....


----------



## NobodySpecial

marduk said:


> When what it was really about is the fact that I was out of shape, lazy, flopping on the couch every night, didn't initiate sex very... sexily, and had dropped most of my individuality and self-confidence off at the door.
> 
> Now, I may be off-base, but for the women I've talked to about this, a lack of self-confidence, motivation, and not taking care of yourself, plus poking your wife in the ribs and saying "wanna do it?"...
> 
> Isn't really gonna light her fire, you know what I mean?


Hello! Ayuh!



> So, I'm with the guys that they need to get in shape, be attractive, have confidence, and initiate sex the way that they'd like their wives to initiate sex -- directly, with confidence, and to keep the whole relationship sexy, not just on Sundays at 7 after the news.
> 
> Where I part company is somehow treating women like "plates" to be "spun" and "negging" is a good thing.
> 
> Because we're all just people, you know?


You can write a book. But I will only read it when I am done with MEM's.


----------



## Faithful Wife

marduk said:


> OK, here's one guy's perspective that swallowed the "red pill" and then puked it back up.
> 
> When some guys (like me) get married, they become "nice guys." And the connotation there isn't so much that being a nice guy is a bad thing as much as a passive-aggressive hidden contract settles in in his mind... "if I do X more, I'll get more sex."
> 
> Where X=dishes, gifting shiny things, whatever.
> 
> The problem is, it doesn't always work. It may work if the woman is overworked at home (which may be the case), but it also may also be a rationalization or excuse for the reality.
> 
> I know, because when I did the dishes more, then it became about the laundry. Or the size of our house. Or a bigger ring. Or whatever...
> 
> When what it was really about is the fact that I was out of shape, lazy, flopping on the couch every night, didn't initiate sex very... sexily, and had dropped most of my individuality and self-confidence off at the door.
> 
> Now, I may be off-base, but for the women I've talked to about this, a lack of self-confidence, motivation, and not taking care of yourself, plus poking your wife in the ribs and saying "wanna do it?"...
> 
> Isn't really gonna light her fire, you know what I mean?
> 
> So, I'm with the guys that they need to get in shape, be attractive, have confidence, and initiate sex the way that they'd like their wives to initiate sex -- directly, with confidence, and to keep the whole relationship sexy, not just on Sundays at 7 after the news.
> 
> Where I part company is somehow treating women like "plates" to be "spun" and "negging" is a good thing.
> 
> Because we're all just people, you know?



Yes, I've read all the red pill crap also, and I know there is literally a campaign where men are trying to convince women that they may as well stick it out with their husbands because after "a certain age" a woman has no market value and she won't be able to get a date to save her life. :rofl:

Good thing women don't actually read that crap. 

I don't know how men can try to fool themselves like this when all the data shows that throughout all ages, women are pursued by men. So those of us who have been on the market somewhat recently (and for me, as I am a dating coach and match maker) the obvious high level of bullsh*t in this message is simply something men are trying to tell THEMSELVES.

As in, "oh don't worry about your wh*re walk away wife, she's OLD and no man will want her...meanwhile YOU will be courted by a bunch of 10's who are half your age".

Puh-lease.


----------



## NobodySpecial

elizabeth2205 said:


> I have not...will definitely check it out, thank you.
> 
> 
> 
> I work, I have many friends, great family, best kids in the world (14 & 17), in 2 book clubs. Can't say I really I have a hobby or passion...maybe reading.
> 
> One of the things that bugs me about H is that he doesn't have friends or hobbies. When I do plan things with my friends, he gets pouty and all 'poor me, you never want to do anything with me'. I think this is big reason I fantasize about living on my own....I get so sick of the passive aggressive guilt trips! When we do have 'date nights', it's just 'meh', never a great time. I have spent years encouraging him to make more friends, do things with guys he likes being around, get a freakin' hobby, anything. Instead, I feel like I can't go out with my friends without guilt unless I've pacified him by 'putting in time' with him first. This happens even with activities I'd rather do by myself, such as exercise. I really like to put on my music and 'escape' when I'm running or walking. He takes this personally and it drives me crazy. He always wants to do everything with me and I feel smothered (and of course guilt for not wanting to spend time with my husband).
> 
> Of course, it sounds logical to just think if we could just make some compromises about these things, we'd both be happier. However, the problem is that I simply don't enjoy doing things as a couple..it feels forced and awkward. And, this brings me back to my main problem....ugh!


He sounds like a child. Who wants to be married to a pouty child?


----------



## elizabeth2205

Faithful Wife said:


> Sorry meant to say "whereas, in my own experience and that of my close girlfriendS"....as in plural, as in many close friends who have gotten out of relationships/marriages and went on to find exactly what they were looking for. And hey, guess what? Their exes ALSO found what THEY were looking for.


Thank you for sharing this...I have several friends/acquaintances that share this experience as well. Of course, that is best case scenario.



> Seriously, what is behind this trying to put FEAR into women that they won't find a good man who is also sexy?


I would just add.....sexy 'to them'. I think some of the (male?) commenters are insinuating that I must be looking for some fantastically gorgeous ripped male model adonis to turn me on. On the contrary...I have learned over the years that sexiness means different things to different people. It's certainly not all ~ or even mostly ~ physical qualities. I can honestly say that I'm sure there are many women that would find my husband to be very attractive. I wish I did.


----------



## elizabeth2205

Sorry...can someone explain the red pill thing?


----------



## grushim1239

elizabeth2205 said:


> [*]_*I honestly don't believe that we ever had real physical chemistry. I can remember not being excited for sex on wedding night..honeymoon, trips, etc.*_ This is my relationship also!
> 
> [*]*Even with all of this said....I still question whether I'm 'going through a phase' and whether I'd regret giving up something that's very stable, comfortable and unconditional. Hence...the reason I asked my original question so I could see some 'real life' examples.*I left my spouse in September. I had a lonely Christmas and he called just 2 days later. He wanted to work things out, and out of loneliness I agree and let him come home. There has been no real physical attraction for me in the past 10 years (we've been married 11). There is no passion. He doesn't make me laugh, and I feel like I can't be myself around him. I tried to do better about sex the first 2 months, but it just isn't there.
> 
> [*]*I guess at this point, I'm trying to figure out if I should make the best of what I have (a good, caring husband who would do anything for me)....or take the leap, listen to my heart and jump into the unknown.*I wish I had never let my spouse come back. I feel completely horrible about the way that I feel. At this point, 4 months into reconciliation, I would rather be lonely than miserably married.
> [/LIST]


My husband is also a very needy and whiny man. I am very feminine and love affection, but I feel like he's the "woman" in the relationship. When I tell him how I feel, he threatens to commit suicide or he gets "sick". I know that's pure manipulation, but it still makes me feel bad.


----------



## richardsharpe

Good evening.
I think the key is understanding your own thoughts / desires.

Sometimes there is no "chemistry", nothing wrong with either person, they just are not passionate with each other. In that case the best option may be for each to to find someone else. 

Sometimes peoples interests / personalities are just too different. They want different sorts of lives. Sometimes they can compromise. Sometimes they are better off with someone else. 

Sometimes there are unrealistic expectations. A desire for a sort of romance that only exists in fantasy. Someone who wants a fantasy is never going to be happy until they recognize that their desires are not realistic.

Sometimes people desire things that are not good for them. They want the "bad boy", or "porn star". But if they get those, they aren't happy because the "bad boy" is, well bad, and the "porn star" appeal wears off quickly when you discover that most of your time is NOT spent having sex.


I'd suggest the OP picture what she would like her relationship and life to be like. Idealized, but not fantasy. Is that possible with her husband, or does he simply not match what she wants. If not, does anyone? There are LOTS of people out there, so you can find someone to match any practical desire - but you need to be sure your desires are practical.


----------



## grushim1239

elizabeth2205 said:


> One of the things that bugs me about H is that he doesn't have friends or hobbies. When I do plan things with my friends, he gets pouty and all 'poor me, you never want to do anything with me'. I think this is big reason I fantasize about living on my own....I get so sick of the passive aggressive guilt trips! When we do have 'date nights', it's just 'meh', never a great time. I have spent years encouraging him to make more friends, do things with guys he likes being around, get a freakin' hobby, anything. Instead, I feel like I can't go out with my friends without guilt unless I've pacified him by 'putting in time' with him first. This happens even with activities I'd rather do by myself, such as exercise. I really like to put on my music and 'escape' when I'm running or walking. He takes this personally and it drives me crazy. He always wants to do everything with me and I feel smothered (and of course guilt for not wanting to spend time with my husband).
> 
> Of course, it sounds logical to just think if we could just make some compromises about these things, we'd both be happier. However, the problem is that I simply don't enjoy doing things as a couple..it feels forced and awkward. And, this brings me back to my main problem....ugh!


I think we may be married to the same man.....LOL. Seriously though, this sounds EXACTLY like my relationship with my husband!


----------



## Faithful Wife

elizabeth2205 said:


> Sorry...can someone explain the red pill thing?


Trust me, you are better off not knowing.


----------



## NobodySpecial

From wiki

"The red pill and its opposite, the blue pill, are popular culture symbols representing the choice between embracing the sometimes painful truth of reality (red pill) and the blissful ignorance of illusion (blue pill). The terms, popularized in science fiction culture, are derived from the 1999 film The Matrix."

As it relates to this topic, I *think* it has to do with the painful truth that many people don't want to accept that yes it IS you and your lack of attractiveness and not just that your wife is a frigid meanie who only cares about the housework. After that, there are layers of games and whatnot that can be piled on by "players".

I stand ready to be corrected if I blew it.


----------



## Faithful Wife

No, it is a whole movement by a bunch of misogynistic creeps who think that women owe them sex, and they trade "secrets" about how to coerce women into bed. 

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-red-pill-reddit-2013-8

http://www.dailydot.com/opinion/time-reddit-dump-red-pill/

Quote by the author from 2nd article:

To understand how far assumptions about women and men’s entitlement to them can take a deranged mind, I ventured into r/TheRedPill. A stalwart of the storied men’s rights movement, this section of Reddit (or subreddit) is one of its darkest corners, populated by rape apologists, revenge-porn enthusiasts, and those who would justify domestic abuse.

“The only thing that offends a feminist more than the idea of being raped is the idea that no one wants to rape her,” says u/crazy89 in one post. u/horaxical confirms, stating “the best kind of sex to have with a onenight stand is the completely dominant type. She'll thank you for treating her like a *****.”


----------



## NobodySpecial

Faithful Wife said:


> No, it is a whole movement by a bunch of misogynistic creeps who think that women owe them sex, and they trade "secrets" about how to coerce women into bed.


I think those both can be true, one stemming misbegottenly from the other.

I love making up words.


----------



## tech-novelist

Faithful Wife said:


> No, it is a whole movement by a bunch of misogynistic creeps who think that women owe them sex, and they trade "secrets" about how to coerce women into bed.
> 
> What Is The Red Pill? - Business Insider
> 
> It's time for Reddit to flush the Red Pill
> 
> Quote by the author from 2nd article:
> 
> To understand how far assumptions about women and men’s entitlement to them can take a deranged mind, I ventured into r/TheRedPill. A stalwart of the storied men’s rights movement, this section of Reddit (or subreddit) is one of its darkest corners, populated by rape apologists, revenge-porn enthusiasts, and those who would justify domestic abuse.
> 
> “The only thing that offends a feminist more than the idea of being raped is the idea that no one wants to rape her,” says u/crazy89 in one post. u/horaxical confirms, stating “the best kind of sex to have with a onenight stand is the completely dominant type. She'll thank you for treating her like a *****.”


Fortunately feminists are all loving, kind people who don't have a bitter bone in their bodies:

Feminist hatemongers on Twitter push campaign to kill all men - National Policy & Issues | Examiner.com


----------



## Faithful Wife

And another one for my ignore list....


----------



## richardsharpe

Good evening
I'm pretty sure red and blue pill had their origins in the movie the Matrix where the red pill let you see the world for horrible place it really was, the blue pill hid all of that.

Red pill and blue pill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


I'm sure terms have been co-opted by other groups. So now it has taken on misogynistic implications. Sigh. I wish people could make up their own terms rather than mis-using existing ones.

Its quite possible that in this conversation people are using different definitions from each other.


----------



## Marduk

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes, I've read all the red pill crap also, and I know there is literally a campaign where men are trying to convince women that they may as well stick it out with their husbands because after "a certain age" a woman has no market value and she won't be able to get a date to save her life. :rofl:
> 
> Good thing women don't actually read that crap.
> 
> I don't know how men can try to fool themselves like this when all the data shows that throughout all ages, women are pursued by men. So those of us who have been on the market somewhat recently (and for me, as I am a dating coach and match maker) the obvious high level of bullsh*t in this message is simply something men are trying to tell THEMSELVES.
> 
> As in, "oh don't worry about your wh*re walk away wife, she's OLD and no man will want her...meanwhile YOU will be courted by a bunch of 10's who are half your age".
> 
> Puh-lease.


Sorry FW I'm having trouble connecting the dots between what I said and what you said. 

Because what I said has nothing to do with trying to fear monger wives to stay with crappy husbands. 

What I'm for is getting men to be better, stronger, more compassionate husbands.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Faithful Wife

marduk said:


> Sorry FW I'm having trouble connecting the dots between what I said and what you said.
> 
> Because what I said has nothing to do with trying to fear monger wives to stay with crappy husbands.
> 
> What I'm for is getting men to be better, stronger, more compassionate husbands.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You started talking about the red pill stuff and what it is about...I expanded on what you said to include the HYPOCRISY and ridiculousness that is the idea that men don't have an expiration date but women do. My point of saying that at all had nothing to do with your point, it was done because I don't want it to appear that red pill is just all about improving yourself. It is far more insidious than that.


----------



## Marduk

Which is why I puked it up. 

It doesn't change the fact that there are bazillions of "nice guy" husbands out there who are unhappy, and making their wives unhappy, that need help.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Faithful Wife

marduk said:


> Which is why I puked it up.
> 
> It doesn't change the fact that there are bazillions of "nice guy" husbands out there who are unhappy, and making their wives unhappy, that need help.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And there is plenty of help for them, just as there is plenty of help for wives who want advice, too. Any advice that can't be *mostly* applied to both genders should be suspect.

The best advice of all and the biggest number of best selling books is by John Gottman.

Both wives and husbands can apply this advice, and the parts that are geared toward one or the other are right there in plain view for both to see. Not hidden away in some attempt to keep the knowledge a secret from the other gender.


----------



## Marduk

Faithful Wife said:


> And there is plenty of help for them, just as there is plenty of help for wives who want advice, too. Any advice that can't be *mostly* applied to both genders should be suspect.
> 
> The best advice of all and the biggest number of best selling books is by John Gottman.
> 
> Both wives and husbands can apply this advice, and the parts that are geared toward one or the other are right there in plain view for both to see. Not hidden away in some attempt to keep the knowledge a secret from the other gender.


I can buy that. 

I will say that it was a fascinating journey, and I did indeed get my wife to chase me, along with an uncomfortable number of other women quite not on purpose. 

So there's something to some of that, but to your point I'm getting a lot more long term out of Gottman than I ever did out of the other stuff.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Faithful Wife

Yes it is similar to when I have read books about how to dupe a man into giving you anything you want, money, gifts, paying off your car without giving him a damn thing. It does work and it is fascinating.


----------



## Marduk

Faithful Wife said:


> No, it is a whole movement by a bunch of misogynistic creeps who think that women owe them sex, and they trade "secrets" about how to coerce women into bed.
> 
> What Is The Red Pill? - Business Insider
> 
> It's time for Reddit to flush the Red Pill
> 
> Quote by the author from 2nd article:
> 
> To understand how far assumptions about women and men’s entitlement to them can take a deranged mind, I ventured into r/TheRedPill. A stalwart of the storied men’s rights movement, this section of Reddit (or subreddit) is one of its darkest corners, populated by rape apologists, revenge-porn enthusiasts, and those who would justify domestic abuse.
> 
> “The only thing that offends a feminist more than the idea of being raped is the idea that no one wants to rape her,” says u/crazy89 in one post. u/horaxical confirms, stating “the best kind of sex to have with a onenight stand is the completely dominant type. She'll thank you for treating her like a *****.”


That's an extreme view, and any view taken to the extreme is probably a bad idea.

The idea, as I understand it, is basically this:

Men have been sold a lie.

By being a 'nice guy' you will get the girl, she will want you forever, and everything will work out just fine.

Where 'nice guy' means what I said above. Say "yes dear" and help with the dishes and laundry and give her things and all that. Because, to be fair, there are parts of society that tell men that this is their job as a husband. "Happy wife, happy life."

The point is, it's a lie. Because it is a lie. 

That's what they men by 'red pill.' Like neo waking up into reality, it's realizing the truth of that lie.

The problem, as you say FW, is that like anything, people take it to extremes.

Things like 'mate preselection.' It's a thing. I firmly believe it, because I've seen it (OK I'm a data point of one but it's enough for me). 

What it basically posits is that if a women finds a man attractive, it makes it more likely that more women will find that man attractive. Just because there's an implicit call to compete, and an assumption that there must be something there if somebody else values him.

Same thing goes for women, I think.

The problem is when a dude makes the logical leap that it would somehow be a great idea if my wife saw that other women wanted me, therefore she'll want me more.

Because this is a completely stupid idea. Sure, terrify your wife into having sex with you... that's not a solid game plan, especially for someone you "love."

Instead, why not just become awesome and let the chips fall where they may?

Because that "nice guy" lie actually hurts everyone. Not just the guy, but his wife, too.


----------



## Marduk

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes it is similar to when I have read books about how to dupe a man into giving you anything you want, money, gifts, paying off your car without giving him a damn thing. It does work and it is fascinating.


And dangerous as hell.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

elizabeth... your relationship is out of balance. Your husband not having a "life of his own" is crushing the relationship and a book that can help you push that back in his lap for him to fix is the book, Boundaries by Townsend.


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## Faithful Wife

Marduk...I have the feeling you think I don't get it. I do get it. I have read all the books, have been with nice guys, I understand the dynamic.

And I will still speak out against red pill bullcrap any time the topic comes up. I would also speak out against the type of advice I found in the books on how to dupe a man, if that advice was being pushed on women here.

Please don't try to "educate" me on the pros or cons of red pill crap. I have my opinion which was derived after reading everything I could find on all sides. I am a dating coach. It's my job to check into these things. I also have quite a bit of life experience.

Not saying your posts are only for my benefit, but I'm just making it clear for you that I am not just making opinions based on what others say about this stuff. I have done my own due diligence.


----------



## Faithful Wife

marduk said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes it is similar to when I have read books about how to dupe a man into giving you anything you want, money, gifts, paying off your car without giving him a damn thing. It does work and it is fascinating.
> 
> 
> 
> And dangerous as hell.
Click to expand...

As is the red pill crap.


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## Marduk

Faithful Wife said:


> As is the red pill crap.


As is polarizing feminism.


----------



## Faithful Wife

???

Except that no one here on this thread is advocating polarizing feminism. So why even go there?


----------



## t_hopper_2012

elizabeth2205 said:


> YES!!!
> 
> A couple years ago, hubby did get motivated and got in better shape...not sure it was enough to change our fundamental dynamic, but it was waaaaay better. Didn't last, though...probably because he didn't get the immediate results he was looking for with our relationship....


Elizabeth,

Why didn't he get results? He was moving in the direction that you've said you wanted ... why not go a little overboard at that point and really show him that this is what you were looking for? 

By not doing so, you further sent the message "Sorry, Charlie. I am not interested in you". Which, by the way, further feeds his neediness - which then makes him more unattractive to you - (which feeds his neediness, which makes him more unattractive ........)


----------



## t_hopper_2012

Is this red pill/blue pill debate really on topic?


----------



## t_hopper_2012

Elizabeth,

I asked a question a number of months ago and was wondering if you would mind answering it now.

The question was this: You are ready (and it sounds like you are more than ready) to shake off this unsexy, needy, irritating husband of yours and begin your life as an independent woman. This is your choice and you certainly seem ready to bear whatever cost it might entail. What about the cost to your husband? Are you ready to make him pay the cost? Where this cost might entail:


Broken heart 
Physical and mental stress that results from divorce 
He'll be approaching 50 and will be at square one as far as relationships go. (You're excited about being able to be "alone." How will he feel about being alone?) 
Less time spent with his children (have you thought about how custody will be handled?) 
Financial cost (He'll probably be paying child support, are you planning on spousal support, too? Side question: how do your incomes compare? Who's going to lose more $$$ in the divorce?)


----------



## NobodySpecial

Faithful Wife said:


> Marduk...I have the feeling you think I don't get it. I do get it. I have read all the books, have been with nice guys, I understand the dynamic.
> 
> And I will still speak out against red pill bullcrap any time the topic comes up. I would also speak out against the type of advice I found in the books on how to dupe a man, if that advice was being pushed on women here.
> 
> Please don't try to "educate" me on the pros or cons of red pill crap. I have my opinion which was derived after reading everything I could find on all sides. I am a dating coach. It's my job to check into these things. I also have quite a bit of life experience.
> 
> Not saying your posts are only for my benefit, but I'm just making it clear for you that I am not just making opinions based on what others say about this stuff. I have done my own due diligence.


My one concern with your boisterous opinion on the red pill crap, as you call it, is that his choice of term has clouded his actual good message. Most of us haven't read the mass of red pill crap. For many of us, the red pill brings up merely the image of Neo choosing to know the real, despite its being the harder choice. 

I agree with your message to some extent. I definitely agree with Marduk's. It is unfortunate that the messages get bogged down over the choice of term used to describe taking a dose of reality to face you life's challenges. I think there are plenty of people on this board for whom that message is helpful. It is the very message that finally got through to me years ago.


----------



## elizabeth2205

t_hopper_2012 said:


> Elizabeth,
> 
> I asked a question a number of months ago and was wondering if you would mind answering it now.
> 
> The question was this: You are ready (and it sounds like you are more than ready) to shake off this unsexy, needy, irritating husband of yours and begin your life as an independent woman. This is your choice and you certainly seem ready to bear whatever cost it might entail. What about the cost to your husband? Are you ready to make him pay the cost? Where this cost might entail:
> 
> 
> Broken heart
> Physical and mental stress that results from divorce
> He'll be approaching 50 and will be at square one as far as relationships go. (You're excited about being able to be "alone." How will he feel about being alone?)
> Less time spent with his children (have you thought about how custody will be handled?)
> Financial cost (He'll probably be paying child support, are you planning on spousal support, too? Side question: how do your incomes compare? Who's going to lose more $$$ in the divorce?)


As I've been saying, this is the whole reason I'm still in the marriage. In fact, I think more about what this will do to him than anything else. And, there's a possibility that this fear of hurting him could make me stay when I probably shouldn't.


----------



## elizabeth2205

t_hopper_2012 said:


> Elizabeth,
> By not doing so, you further sent the message "Sorry, Charlie. I am not interested in you". Which, by the way, further feeds his neediness - which then makes him more unattractive to you - (which feeds his neediness, which makes him more unattractive ........)


This is the dilemma I've been dealing with ever since I've realized this whole dynamic. It's kind of like the chicken and the egg. Which came first, and which can change first. But I also don't feel like I can manufacture my feelings, or say things I don't mean.


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## richardsharpe

Good evening
I don't think either partner in a marriage can be happy if both aren't happy. If my wife lost interest in me, I would much prefer that she told me and we each went our separate ways, rather than her pretending to be interested - and me seeing something was wrong but not knowing what.






t_hopper_2012 said:


> Elizabeth,
> 
> I asked a question a number of months ago and was wondering if you would mind answering it now.
> 
> The question was this: You are ready (and it sounds like you are more than ready) to shake off this unsexy, needy, irritating husband of yours and begin your life as an independent woman. This is your choice and you certainly seem ready to bear whatever cost it might entail. What about the cost to your husband? Are you ready to make him pay the cost? Where this cost might entail:
> 
> 
> Broken heart
> Physical and mental stress that results from divorce
> He'll be approaching 50 and will be at square one as far as relationships go. (You're excited about being able to be "alone." How will he feel about being alone?)
> Less time spent with his children (have you thought about how custody will be handled?)
> Financial cost (He'll probably be paying child support, are you planning on spousal support, too? Side question: how do your incomes compare? Who's going to lose more $$$ in the divorce?)


----------



## Marduk

NobodySpecial said:


> My one concern with your boisterous opinion on the red pill crap, as you call it, is that his choice of term has clouded his actual good message. Most of us haven't read the mass of red pill crap. For many of us, the red pill brings up merely the image of Neo choosing to know the real, despite its being the harder choice.
> 
> I agree with your message to some extent. I definitely agree with Marduk's. It is unfortunate that the messages get bogged down over the choice of term used to describe taking a dose of reality to face you life's challenges. I think there are plenty of people on this board for whom that message is helpful. It is the very message that finally got through to me years ago.


_That_ was my point, thanks NS.

And why I think it is on topic here...

Is that I wonder how many women are trapped in passionless marriages as a result of that 'blue pill' lie?


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## SimplyAmorous

elizabeth2205 said:


> *This is the dilemma I've been dealing with ever since I've realized this whole dynamic. It's kind of like the chicken and the egg. Which came first, and which can change first. But I also don't feel like I can manufacture my feelings, or say things I don't mean.*


Have you had a good knock down FIGHT with him?? Seriously...sometimes we fall into these passive patterns.. when it's both sides.. it only leads to further disconnect...we stuff our feelings....then the assumptions start... resentment feeling the other should be doing this or that...more resentment...and so it goes...till they feel NOTHING at all...

What is you & his conflict style .. if I may ask...a small sampling.. more depth on the thread below...



> *Volatile*: Erupting Passionate disputes/ arguments
> 
> *Validating*: Fight more politely, calm collaborators, a great mutual respect is shown
> 
> *Conflict Avoiding*: Rarely argue, avoid confrontation, may agree to disagree but never get deep
> 
> *Hostile*: Argue often/ hotly, put downs & sarcasms prevail



>> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...ead-4-types-5-1-ratio-marriage-conflicts.html

An article I had posted on this thread... 



> Why Avoiding Conflict Can Kill Sexual Desire
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...Do you think you’re being a “good” spouse if you stifle your irritation or negative feelings in order to keep the peace in your marriage? And would you be surprised to learn that avoiding conflict can cause you to lose your sexual desire for your mate?
> 
> Many times, lack of fights, disagreements, arguments, and dissention is strongly connected to lack of passion and desire. I’m certainly not advocating open war with “no holds barred” because that kills passion and desire, also. But the absence of heated arguments is often correlated to the absence of strong sexual feelings.
> 
> Over the years, I have worked in counseling with numerous spouses who have prided themselves on having a calm marriage with few rifts. Usually by the time they came to see me, it was because the marriage felt empty and without passion.
> The spouses cared about each other but there was no spark of sexual desire. The spouses felt like siblings or best friends but not lovers. Their relationship was polite, placid, easygoing, routine, and predictably lifeless.
> 
> Why does the avoidance of conflict negatively impact sexual desire in a relationship? It would seem that always getting along well would mean better sex, but that’s not the case at all. That’s because the “always getting along well” is just on the surface in many cases.
> 
> When a couple never has heated arguments or disagreements, it usually means that one or the other is burying their real feelings. At least one spouse, and maybe both, is giving in to the other one, either to keep the peace or because it’s easier than resisting.
> 
> Usually, one partner routinely gives in to the other the majority of the time in cases like this. That means that the spouse who is committed to keeping the peace at all costs is not fully expressing his (or her) unique individuality. Something is missing—the butting of heads that occurs when two independent strong-willed people live together and have to compromise and reach agreement about things that they disagree on.
> When a spouse stuffs her (or his) angry, negative feelings in a closet and shuts the door, she may think she has handled things in a helpful way. She has preserved the peace and made marital life smoother for the time being. At the time, she may tell herself that her negative feelings don’t matter and that she has done the “right” thing by avoiding conflict. She has been a “good wife.”
> 
> But the anger and negative feelings keep growing larger in the dark closet where they have been stuffed away. Eventually, as more anger and negative feelings are put in the closet, they may push open the door and flood out—most likely in an inappropriate way and at an inappropriate time.
> 
> It may be something small that is the trigger for the emotional outburst where everything tumbles out into the daylight for all to see. It doesn’t take a lot of big incidents for this to happen—just a bit here and there over time—feelings that are never expressed or dealt with so that the person could be a “good spouse.”
> By the time the feelings are finally expressed, resentment and anger have accumulated and have already damaged the emotional intimacy in the relationship. The build up of emotional debris from unresolved issues can smother the flames of passion. And anger growing underground can suck the air and life out of a relationship.
> 
> When a spouse tries to stifle her (or his) angry feelings, the vital life force energy and passion is also stifled. It’s not possible to bury negative feelings without also affecting the positive ones. Everything is connected.
> 
> If anger and resentment are buried, the capacity of the individual to experience desire and passion is also affected. This includes desire and passion for the partner and for life in general.
> One of the tip-offs is the word “should”: “I should be a ‘good wife’ and not disagree,” “I should be a ‘good husband’ and not rock the boat too much,” or “I should always try to keep the peace and avoid causing arguments.” When you find yourself trying to make yourself do something because you “should,” there are probably some other opposing feelings that need to be examined and expressed in an appropriate way.
> 
> The key is to express feelings at the time they first emerge but to do it in an appropriate way that allows you and your spouse to deal with them and resolve them. Then you’ll avoid the build up of anger and resentment that can sabotage your sexual relationship and kill your sexual desire. You’ll also avoid the depression that comes from routinely stifling your feelings and preferences as well as the unplanned explosions that can result later on.
> 
> The road to great sex starts with satisfying emotional intimacy, and it’s maintained by expressing feelings appropriately and keeping the channels of communication as clear and debris-free as possible. For that to be possible, feelings have to be acknowledged and dealt with, not buried.


----------



## NobodySpecial

marduk said:


> _That_ was my point, thanks NS.
> 
> And why I think it is on topic here...
> 
> Is that I wonder how many women are trapped in passionless marriages as a result of that 'blue pill' lie?


Men and women both. And holy moly do the women get creamed when they come to this board and say, I am not attracted to my Nice Guy (capital N and capital H intended) husband. 

Not grand.

My husband is a WONDERFUL man. He is sweet, passionate, helpful. He is also playful, joyful and fun. He is fit and handsome. And to be really honest and fair, even back in the day when I was too immature to know what I was doing, he never took bull**** off me. That was huge. Glad I figured it out. He was a natural.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Jellybeans said:


> You may meet someone you connect strongly with and you may not.
> 
> You may go on to have wild monkey sex and you may not.
> 
> Life is a gamble.
> 
> Because of the amount of people living on this planet, it's likely you will get laid again. Whether that translates into a "passion-filled" relationship is another story.


:rofl: @ wild monkey sex.

Here's my take OP, and I left a similar room mate marriage (but I'm a guy).

You don't know what is waiting for you out there, but you know what ISN'T with the marriage. I don't know anyone who can change what drives their loins, if you will.

If you're being truly honest that you never really felt it with this guy, which is kinda sh*tty on your part to have married him anyway, then you likely never will. It's time to correct the initial mistake and bow out as humbly and gracefully as possible.

As much as it sucks to have made such a mistake, we ought not be bound by our mistakes for life when they can be corrected.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes, I've read all the red pill crap also, and I know there is literally a campaign where men are trying to convince women that they may as well stick it out with their husbands because after "a certain age" a woman has no market value and she won't be able to get a date to save her life.


This seems like a matter of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

None of what you mention is part of Marduk's point. It's rather pointing to additional information from Marduk's source which you find distasteful as reason to dismiss what his actual points were.

To make the point by comparision, it would be as if I, an atheist - used Jonah and the Whale to declare that the bible was devoid of value. There's plenty of good messages in there in spite of the messages I reject. Something to keep in mind when we are biased against a source.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

NobodySpecial said:


> holy moly do the women get creamed when they come to this board and say, I am not attracted to my Nice Guy (capital N and capital H intended) husband.


Eh... it's about the same. Men get creamed when they aren't attracted to their "model" wives as well. It's probably just backlash people feel when they think they've been doing the "right things". "I had your children! I've kept your house! I've worked and sweat for you and never demanded anything!"

There's an understandable sense of injustice there I think. The sort that asks, "how can you leave a 'good' husband/wife?" Plus, it's probably unsettling to those who think they're the "good" husband/wife.


----------



## happy as a clam

marduk said:


> Now, I may be off-base, but for the women I've talked to about this, a lack of self-confidence, motivation, and not taking care of yourself, plus *poking your wife in the ribs and saying "wanna do it?"...*
> 
> Isn't really gonna light her fire, you know what I mean?


This is almost as bad as my ex, who used to ask me, "Do you want to go boink?" (And this would come after months of no sex, no kissing, no touching.)

That sure got me in the mood... NOT.

:lol:


----------



## NobodySpecial

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Eh... it's about the same. Men get creamed when they aren't attracted to their "model" wives as well. It's probably just backlash people feel when they think they've been doing the "right things". "I had your children! I've kept your house! I've worked and sweat for you and never demanded anything!"


Hello. Time for the freaking red pill of truth.


----------



## Marduk

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Eh... it's about the same. Men get creamed when they aren't attracted to their "model" wives as well. It's probably just backlash people feel when they think they've been doing the "right things". "I had your children! I've kept your house! I've worked and sweat for you and never demanded anything!"
> 
> There's an understandable sense of injustice there I think. The sort that asks, "how can you leave a 'good' husband/wife?" Plus, it's probably unsettling to those who think they're the "good" husband/wife.


And this is one thing that the 'red pill' machismo stuff gets right.

Covert contracts are just a passive aggressive way of trying to control the other person, and get what you want, without actually coming clean about what you want.

And if what you're doing isn't getting you what you want, you need to stop and re-examine that, even if it means questioning what you or society or your friends or you partner or your parents have always told you what "nice boys" or "nice girls" do.


----------



## elizabeth2205

SimplyAmorous said:


> Have you had a good knock down FIGHT with him?? Seriously...sometimes we fall into these passive patterns.. when it's both sides.. it only leads to further disconnect...we stuff our feelings....then the assumptions start... resentment feeling the other should be doing this or that...more resentment...and so it goes...till they feel NOTHING at all...
> 
> What is you & his conflict style .. if I may ask...a small sampling.. more depth on the thread below...


No, we don't really fight. We sometimes bicker, usually me getting irritated with him. He'll say something that doesn't make sense to me, I'll call him out on it, and then he'll say 'you're right, nevermind'. Drives me BONKERS!!


----------



## Marduk

elizabeth2205 said:


> No, we don't really fight. We sometimes bicker, usually me getting irritated with him. He'll say something that doesn't make sense to me, I'll call him out on it, and then he'll say 'you're right, nevermind'. Drives me BONKERS!!


Passive-aggressive. Both of you.

Here's a hint that I learned the hard way:

More passivity yeilds more aggression, and more aggression yeilds more passivity.

There is such a thing as just clearly saying what the problem is and what you want the other person to do about it is. Clearly, calmly, and in a way that allows them to decide what they're gonna do about it.

Another tip:

Why do you care when he says something that doesn't make sense to you.

A metric crapload of problems went away when my wife and I stopped caring about not agreeing about most stuff that doesn't matter.


----------



## Faithful Wife

FWIW, I'm not going to bother answering any posts about red pill crap...because I don't want to get in trouble for threadjacking.

Sorry for T/J elizabeth.


----------



## t_hopper_2012

elizabeth2205 said:


> This is the dilemma I've been dealing with ever since I've realized this whole dynamic. It's kind of like the chicken and the egg. Which came first, and which can change first. But I also don't feel like I can manufacture my feelings, or say things I don't mean.


Elizabeth,

If he were less needy - and more willing to give you some alone time to pursue your hobbies and interest (not other men, though), would this make him more attractive to you? If so, then I do think that you need to "fake it until you make it". He's not going to get less needy on his own. It's either going to take therapy or some work on your part (or a combination of the two). 

He's needy because he's feeling insecure. You have been pulling away from him FOR YEARS. He can feel it and it's no wonder that he's this way. You've got to pull him close and help him to feel more secure. Yes, he's his own man and responsible for his own upkeep - but I strongly believe that the way you've treated him for the past few years is really contributing to his current state.

How terribly sad it will be for you husband if you leave him because he's so needy - and this was something that you helped to make worse - a lot worse.


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## chillymorn

you might feel different when you realize his new woman who is sick of bad boys cheating and being selfish wasn't their cup of tea.

and your new passionate man is just a player. who doesn't really mean any of it because thats what he tells all the women.


only one way to know for sure. and thats to take the leap.


----------

