# A course of action - go on as is (give more time), 180, full break, ...?



## afather (Oct 20, 2021)

First i wrote "short" story but it came up too long. So I distilled into:

Us: We (in 40s) have been married for > 17 years, 2 girl kids (11 and 17yo).

Wife: She had total meltdown ~3 months ago ("I feel trapped, need space, and to move out", moved out to another room, rented apartment but only starting next month), we both were in total mental mess for few weeks, and then over a month ago she "came clean" - let me know about her affair via email; I figured out who is the OM, she did not disclose -- with +23 years age to her (and married to the matching him in age spouse AFAIK) for ~4 years EA (first consulted about job, then "became friends") followed by ~2 years (from her email, might be longer) of PA.

Me: To retain sanity (or since I did not know better, and due to the lack of "back spine") in the family I did not do 180 at any of those points, and was receptive to dialog (actually started to talk, since we both were closed down for years), took over "duties" she did, etc.

Wife: upon friend's advice got psychotherapist, who seemed to present her with reality. 2 weeks after (facilitated by guests visiting) she moved back to the bedroom (I did not object). But she remains in limbo. She seems to be trying to "withdraw" from OM but SMS-dialog/call trickles through pretty much at least once a week (she confirms, but does not disclose; started to suspect that I somehow monitor her). She is not really realizing the scale of hurt she brought into my world; and "coming clean" as to reveal her activities (even if only future ones) to establish some "new" trust is not in her mind at all yet (and from her words is not recommended by her therapist).

Me: I would say all this "transformed" me already - before this I did really stop carrying much about "myself" I guess in the past years. Now - established morning routine, looking good, generally no pain in the eyes (I hope), more time with kids (hiking etc), etc. But it is all still within home/house - did not start going out by myself or smth like that. Inside - uncertainty, yet to develop "independence" from her since that would be needed any way.

Us: As I did not do 180 or moved out (can't with current laws; also to leave family behind - nope), and tried to "keep cool" for all of us, we are both in limbo state. We started to talk (much more than before), had some local family trips together, give hugs each other, (sex is gone though although had some even after "come clean"), etc. To kids it might even look like we are "back normal". She says she does not know what she wants yet. She seems trying to resolve situation (for herself at least) with some mixed success. Me (wants to say) is transformed, not giving up, but also not "moving on". All our finances were shared, but she never looked into them, asked me for passwords to see what we are spending on -- I gave them all to her. We did not separate any finances yet but she did get new job and established a new checking account where part of her salary goes (so, so much for "to not separate finances")

From you: Seeking advice/feedback e.g. on

- probably it would not hurt one way or another to consult a divorce attorney regarding house/pension/kids

- need to work out a strategy/plan to make myself less mentally dependent on her. Yet to figure details, advice is welcome.

- decide on when it is "enough is enough" and go nuclear (total separation -> divorce): our (new) marriage unlikely to survive unless trust is established (I have hopes that it is still possible), but for that she really needs to come "clean" and stop hiding

- more to be "seen" I guess in 10 days whenever her "own" apartment would become available and she says she would use it as office

- she is open to go to couple counseling, but I am not yet sure on what is the point if she remains in limbo...


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Jeez man why don’t you just lay down already. Someone else may want to wipe their feet on you as well.

Your plan (complete lack of) is the absolute worst thing you could be doing.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

She has not stopped all contact with the AP, has she? She needs to. The way this needs to be done is that she writes him a no contact letter. I posted a link to some samples. The idea of the no contact letter is that it's NO CONTACT. Once the letter is sent she cannot have any contact with him at all, ever again. It's not a 'good bye' letter where she gets to say nice things to him. The letter is about how much she has hurt you and that she dedicated to you and repairing your relationship. You need to be there to watch her sent it whether it's via email or snail mail.

Sample No Contact Letters | AFFAIRCARE (wordpress.com) 

Have you disclosed her affair to at least family? 

Does the AP's wife know that he's been cheating? I'll bet not. The affair has to be disclosed to her. One of the fastest ways to break up an affair is to let the betrayed spouse know about it. Men especially will drop their affair partner like a hot potato.

There is a good book that has explains how to handle all this. My suggestion is that you get it, read it and do what it suggests. It works. The book talks about Plan A and Plan B. Plan A is sort of what you have been doing. Once you do things like expose the affair you give her the choice to end the affair. If she does not end it cold turkey with the no contact letter, you go to a very strict Plan B (aka 180). A strict `80 works to save your sanity until either you file for divorce or you two decide actually work on your marriage.

Surviving an Affair by Dr. Willard F. Harley Jr.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

So she hasn’t made her decision yet? Meaning, whether she wants to stay with AP or you?

That’s the most simple part of this. You make the decision for her.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

The first thing I would do is to tell his poor wife everything you know. She deserves the truth. Don't tell your wife you are doing this. 
If there is any hope for your marriage, she must cut off all contact. Hopefully once the Om's wife finds out it will stop. The idea of the flat being her office is crazy. She will use it to meet him there. 
If she moves out and refuses to stop contact with him then get legal advise.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Step 1: tell her to end the contact with this guy or move out
Step 2: separate YOUR finances
Step 3: call attorney


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## afather (Oct 20, 2021)

Thank you all!



LATERILUS79 said:


> So she hasn’t made her decision yet? Meaning, whether she wants to stay with AP or you?


Well -- I don't think that there is a possibility to stay with AP, but rather it is on either to stay with me or separate (and then continue the affair with AP).



EleGirl said:


> Have you disclosed her affair to at least family?


there is not much close family -- hers are gone, and I have not disclosed to my mom. Disclosed in general turns to one friend, and confined to another in more detail.



EleGirl said:


> Surviving an Affair by Dr. Willard F. Harley Jr.


thank you! will read



EleGirl said:


> Does the AP's wife know that he's been cheating? I'll bet not. The affair has to be disclosed to her. One of the fastest ways to break up an affair is to let the betrayed spouse know about it. Men especially will drop their affair partner like a hot potato.


I guess from what I have read I was afraid of a backfire (only bring them closer together), but also being a "Nice guy" (yeap - just discovered the book, didn't read yet) -- did not want to share hurt with that old lady (they both are in late 60s). Not sure what is their situation is and either she would survive through these news if they are news.


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## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

Set an example for your kids about not allowing others to treat you wrongly.

Tell your wife to pack her bags and get out.

Have an attorney file for divorce ASAP and in the meantime, setup a personal account in your name only and transfer 50% of everything to it quickly.

ETA: Setup a DNA test for you and the kids to confirm they are yours - this will send your wife a message about how far she has broken trust.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

afather said:


> Thank you all!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If I were her I would definitely want to know. 60's isn't that old.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

afather said:


> I guess from what I have read I was afraid of a backfire (only bring them closer together), but also being a "Nice guy" (yeap - just discovered the book, didn't read yet) -- did not want to share hurt with that old lady (they both are in late 60s). Not sure what is their situation is and either she would survive through these news if they are news.


One way to look at this is that his wife has the right to make her own life choices. When the truth is hidden from her, she is deprived of the chance to decide if she wants to continue the marriage or not. If you do disclose the affair to her, make sure you provide her with enough evidence so that he cannot claim that you are some crazy jealous guy who make it all up.


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## Tested_by_stress (Apr 1, 2021)

Tell his wife. Ask your's to leave. File for divorce. 4 years with two of them physical? Do you have any self respect at all? Time to live for YOU". She's not worth any more of your time.


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## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

afather said:


> I guess from what I have read I was afraid of a backfire (only bring them closer together), but also being a "Nice guy" (yeap - just discovered the book, didn't read yet) -- did not want to share hurt with that old lady (they both are in late 60s). Not sure what is their situation is and either she would survive through these news if they are news.


It is essentially your duty to tell her. She may very well already know and you'll just get more info on your wife.

As moral individual with integrity, you must disclose what you know.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Afather, I think you missed my point.

the audacity of your wife to say to you that she needs to figure out what she wants after a 4 year affair is beyond ridiculous. I’m saying for you to reclaim control of your life and remove your wife from it. Don’t give her the opportunity to decide what she wants. It is blatant disrespect to you. Remove this person from you life and start to heal.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

No decision is a decision.

Let her go.

Hard 180 and move on with your life.

Buy or download (it’s free) “No More Mr. Nice Guy” by Robert Glover and start reading it.

TODAY.


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## afather (Oct 20, 2021)

EleGirl said:


> f you do disclose the affair to her, make sure you provide her with enough evidence so that he cannot claim that you are some crazy jealous guy who make it all up.


That's a tricky one ATM - in the email my wife didn't name him. Cell phone usage reports are the ones filled up with his cell number and made it clear, and the rest of confirmation was verbal.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

afather said:


> That's a tricky one ATM - in the email my wife didn't name him. Cell phone usage reports are the ones filled up with his cell number and made it clear, and the rest of confirmation was verbal.


So she has admitted who it is? If so then please tell her. You are making excuses not to.


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## jsmart (Mar 14, 2015)

Separate your money ASAP. Make sure that she is paying 50% of the bills. Do not subsidize her lifestyle. File file for D. You can stop it if you see real progress from her, which has to include NO CONTACT.

You have passively let this go on for way to long. Where’s your anger? Stop treating her like she’s a loving wife and a good mother. She betrayed the family when she moved out. She chose being this older man’s free prostitute over her family. 

You need to tell the OM’s wife. She will be your best ally in getting this broken up. Let your nearly adult daughter know what’s going on in a PG-13 way. 

So now it’s time for you to become a selfish bastage. Work on yourself. Start a vigorous workout regimen, get your gear on point. (clothes, haircut, beard, hygiene , etc). Make yourself scarce. Reconnect with friends. Start up any hobbies that you gave up to be a husband and father. Get out of the house as much as possible without letting your wife know where you are. Up your efforts with your daughters. Let them know that you love them and will put them before any other woman. They need to know that one parent still prioritizes them.

You mentioned that sex has dried up. Did she sexually cut you off? It’s very common for WWs to stop or sharply curtail sex with their husband be they want to be loyal to their man.


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## skerzoid (Feb 7, 2017)

Start being "a father" instead of "an assistant mother". You need to pick yourself up and show your children how to handle a critical situation.

You have done everything wrong so far.

Stop making excuses for her.

The only way to save this marriage (why you want to is beyond me) is to be willing to lose it.

Here is an action checklist:


*Lawyer up. *Have her served now. If she gets her head out of her butt you can slow it down. Watch her actions, not her words.
*Get a hold of his "Old Lady".* The quickest way to stop an affair is to expose it to the other spouse.
*Your excuse of his wife's age is bull excrement.* I'm older than that and I would want to know. He's that age and he's been f-ing your wife for two years! Tell her about it now,* NO EXCUSES!!*
*Read your copy of No More Mister Nice Guy. * Boy, do you need it!
*You are codependent as hell.* Start working on that.
*Have yourself checked for STDs. *
*Stop all sex with her.* A judge will see that as forgiveness.
*Stop playing the "pick-me-dance".* It makes you seem pathetic in her eyes and *NEVER* works.
*Google "The 180 for Hurt Spouses". * Do it religiously.
*Remember, "Strength & Honor". * Let her remember you that way!


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

Let grandpa have her. Follow the advice here in this thread. Go listen to Rollo Tomassi and Rich Cooper. Build a better you and don't look back. Chase excellence, not broads. The broads will find you.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Your weakness, willingness to be walked on, inability to make decisions in your life, excuses as to even informing the OBS, etc——-
With these things on your end, you have zero it negative chances of any real reconciliation and therefore I suggest following Skerzoid’s advice.

Your wife can’t possibly be attracted to the weakness you have shown. Women hate weakness, don’t ask me how I know.


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## colingrant (Nov 6, 2017)

afather said:


> First i wrote "short" story but it came up too long. So I distilled into:
> 
> Us: We (in 40s) have been married for > 17 years, 2 girl kids (11 and 17yo).
> 
> ...


She's comfortable. Comfort is not conducive to decision making. Why decide anything (choose you) when everything is comfortable. I was once told by a cousin I live with to move out in 2 months. Why did he do that? Because I lived there a year and was comfortable. I moved to a new area, he took me in to help me get started and I slipped into a comfortable mind set. Most people avoid embracing or even imposing discomfort upon themselves.

But if you think about it, few things in life worth having comes comfortably. Your disposition suits her just fine, but what's suitable for her is disrespectful (intentional or unintentional) and subordinates you. To further the discomfort point, discomfort for her may also mean discomfort for you as well, but it's for a good purpose. 

It means you do what you need to do to drive your own destiny and not leave it up to chance, let alone a wife who does not have your best interests at heart. Takes courage and conviction in yourself. Be this. Bet on you, not her and the marriage. This persona commands respect.


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## Tdbo (Sep 8, 2019)

GusPolinski said:


> No decision is a decision.
> 
> Let her go.
> 
> ...











Robert Glover No More Mr Nice Guy : Robert Glover : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive


Self Help



archive.org


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## Benbutton (Oct 3, 2019)

Before you do anything -
1. Make an appointment with a urologist
2. Ask for a testicle transplant to replace your pea-nuts
3. Go home and kick her ass out
4. Divorce


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

So after reading your story we can all basically say that your wife is writing the narrative to your life and you’re OK with it you seem to be in the backseat and you’re not doing anything about it you’re allowing her to control all of this .......time to grow up, put on your big boy pants and time to take control otherwise you will always be Plan B. You have some great advice here listen act on it...I promise you she sees you as a weak person


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## Tdbo (Sep 8, 2019)

afather said:


> First i wrote "short" story but it came up too long. So I distilled into:
> 
> Us: We (in 40s) have been married for > 17 years, 2 girl kids (11 and 17yo).
> 
> ...


Only you can decide if she is worth staying with.
I wouldn't want to cohabitate with anything that cold blooded, however.
I'd throw a 180 in her direction.
Then I'd hire the most ruthless shark of an attorney that I could find to sic on her.
Throw her off offense and put her on defense.
If she truly wants to stay together, make it incumbent on her to do all the work, fix her mess, and take the steps necessary to put together a scenario where it might be worth your while to do so.
However, she just probably wants out.
If that's the case, save yourself the time and drama. Cut to the chase quick.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

Expose him to his wife..

I can't even imagine what your girls think of you.


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## Kaliber (Apr 10, 2020)

One thing from me: *People can only disrespect you if you allow them to!*
You know what you need to do!
My man, regain your pride and self respect back!


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## TriX (May 10, 2021)

> I was afraid of a backfire (only bring them closer together),


This is typical screwed up thinking of the BS. Then the Pick-me dance will happen, which actually makes the waywards run faster towards their APs. I mean, who the heck would want to stay with a needy crybaby? This behaviour just confirms to the WW that the BS is neutered.

So what if your WW heads off to her AP? That just further confirms to you that you should not stay with her. Why would you want to stay with a woman that does not value you. You also do yourself a great disservice by surrendering your self-respect for a tainted trollop.

Why let a flawed person make decisions about your future? Why let a liar dictate your future? Why let someone who does not care about your or you kids have a say in what you do?


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## Coloratura (Sep 28, 2021)

Eight years ago, I discovered my husband in an affair with a co-worker. I handled it as you have been - I didn’t want to divorce and break up the family. I loved him. I thought he had just made a mistake - just a one-time thing - and that he would come to his senses. I asked that he not see her anymore, and he promised he wouldn’t *but they still worked together! *

Don’t end up like me! Now, here I am after 27 years of marriage about to divorce because I have learned that they never stopped their relationship. It just went further underground.

I have wasted 8 years of my life on a man who has betrayed me massively. Many people on TAM unfortunately have a similar story.

Unless your wife cuts contact with the OM completely, you will never be able to trust her and she will likely continue in her affair. If you want your marriage to have any chance, no contact needs to be the first step. If that doesn’t happen there is no point in staying married.

I’m sorry you are going through this.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

afather said:


> - probably it would not hurt one way or another to consult a divorce attorney regarding house/pension/kids


Yes, immediately if not sooner


afather said:


> - need to work out a strategy/plan to make myself less mentally dependent on her. Yet to figure details, advice is welcome.


Yes


afather said:


> - decide on when it is "enough is enough" and go nuclear (total separation -> divorce): our (new) marriage unlikely to survive unless trust is established (I have hopes that it is still possible), but for that she really needs to come "clean" and stop hiding


Unlikely, as in zero probability. She has connected in a longterm PA and abandoned you and her family. Nothing to work toward.



afather said:


> - she is open to go to couple counseling, but I am not yet sure on what is the point if she remains in limbo...


What is point of spending time and money on couseling? Zero reason. You are trying to resurrect a zombie marriage that she ended long ago but didn't bother to tell you. You need to conserve your finances to weather the divorce mill.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

i guess you are asking us how to reconcile with her. lets ignore the elephant in the room for now--four long years of betrayal

i am not sure that is possible, *at least not yet.*

this is all her fault. she was doing this older guy. Why? who knows, maybe she has a daddy fetish they are role playing out? maybe he is a dominant and is tying her up and performing sex acts on her you can not even dream about. It all does not matter.

what DOES matter is she has to do, unequivocally, three things to prove to you what she is worth.

1) no contact

2) a full time-line of all the meetings, all the sex acts, in detail. did they screw in your bed? did he cum on her wedding ring? Did he make her put pictures of you up next to the bed as they screwed? are there any online videos or pictures of her naked, or worse? Threesomes? when she has given you that, possibly polygraph her to s if she lied about any details. you are trying to find out if she did any depraved things that showed utter contempt for you and your marriage

3) she has to sign up to do ALL of the heavy lifting to make your marriage right again. that means copious and enthusiastic sex. sharing all passwords, email accounts, apps on her phone, etc. Including installing key loggers on her phone and computer.

if i read correctly, *she has not agreed to 1), and for 3) you have not seen the sex come back

two strikes against her* so far on the reconstruction path


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

afather said:


> First i wrote "short" story but it came up too long. So I distilled into:
> 
> Us: We (in 40s) have been married for > 17 years, 2 girl kids (11 and 17yo).
> 
> ...


She sounds reluctant to let him go. It doesn't take much to demand that he does not contact her again in any way.


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## manowar (Oct 3, 2020)

afather said:


> "Nice guy"


This is your biggest problem amigo. There's a saying around here (it's basically my saying, anyway)

Nice guys always lose. Always. Have you ever heard of the ladies getting into a fight to win over the affections of a man because he is so nice? Never. 

As for your predicament. Throw her the fk out. . Show her you are not putting up with her bs. Also why would you subject yourself to her emotional baggage? You are nothing more than an emotional tampon -- plus you are in the friendzone. 

Another problem you have. She knows she can walk all over you because she thinks (and is probably right) that you have a total lack of options when it comes to other women. She thinks she is the best you can do. Show her how wrong she is. You'll see a change in her too. Believe me. Starting to understand how being a nice guy is really your worst enemy.


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## Kamstel2 (Feb 24, 2020)

AF,
Just checking in on you.
How are you doing?

hang in there, stay strong, somewhat is best for you, AND FINALLY, tell the old guys wife!!!!! Destroy her fantasy of her LaLaLand where everywhere she looks she sees rainbows and unicorns!!!!


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## afather (Oct 20, 2021)

Thank you @Kamstel2 for checking in, and thanks everyone for feedback! Needless to say you all were right. 

TL;DR summary: after this near month trying to reconcile, I asked her to leave this Tue, and exposure letter was sent the same day, the wife of OM contacted me back today: their attempts to reconcile is over since he decided to stay with my wife as of last Sun... From the wife of OM discovered that affair is about 8 years old (early problems in our relationship started to make sense! I didn't realize it went that far back), with f.ck sessions in both of our houses, hotels, "**** truck" (as OM's wife called it until they traded it in); that my wife moved out from our bedroom corresponds to period when the OM went in "No contact mode" (oh poor thing), that my wife emailed me about the affair ONLY because the wife of the OM caught her SMS to him and replied to her that she must tell me or she would (email was drafted but never sent unfortunately -- would have put me in touch with her earlier); that it was my wife pursuing him (which aligns at large with what she said and who initiated morning SMS correspondence), ...


I have found good strong support from friends thanks to the exposure letter. Sure thing not all reached out to the wife, but some did. Letter was based on one from marriagebuilders samples so I was all nice and fluffy, waiting for her to come back, etc... (I was still keeping that as an opportunity)
I have not told kids -- I think them knowing now would change nothing and might only aggravate situation and present me as "not thinking about kids mental health" during divorce process. So we will probably remain at "We are trying to solve our issues. We have no answers for you ATM" description of the situation my wife gave them.
I did finish reading (well -- listening) the "No More Mr Nice Guy". Some items (taking care about myself etc) already were implemented in the past months, and friends support opened me up. Sure thing -- long ways to go I guess. But ATM I do need to think about kids, since their sanity and health is "what I need" truly. Will need to reread I guess to start implementing some of the other suggestions.
I was Reading/Listening other literature ("Not just friends ...") ... but postponed since it is hard (since matched so well and explained how I avoided having an affair, and gave history to hers), and wife said that she is not interested (I was still hopeful)

So -- that is the status update. I think I am a bit more "sober" now, still in pain etc but I will plow through. 
Now need to work out logistic with kids -- I cannot just not let them go to her. They love her and she does love them, regardless how despicable she is.


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## Luckylucky (Dec 11, 2020)

So did she leave?


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## Megaforce (Nov 12, 2021)

Good. You are out. Keep it that way. She is no good.


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## afather (Oct 20, 2021)

Luckylucky said:


> So did she leave?


D'oh, forgot to mention - yes, very quickly and likely happily (didn't look at her). Most likely stays at/with the old men through the nights (kids come to her place after school). I wonder what and how evidence to collect now which would be admissable?


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## Luckylucky (Dec 11, 2020)

I was watching a show on Netflix recently, and the main character just found out her mother and father divorced because her father used to beat her mother. She didn’t know the truth, but is a single mum, who guess what… also ended up leaving an abusive husband.

I think kids need to know the truth in a non-judgemental, a non-bitter way. Straight facts are best, and actively ask the kid what they think, and are they ok. ‘Mum has a boyfriend and has had for the last 4 years’.

Your kids have probably noticed your wife’s unhappiness and have probably blamed themselves, just as you have. It’s ok not to shield your wife, just because they love her. Withholding the truth can backfire spectacularly one day when they turn around and blame you. It’s ok for them to understand sometimes marriage doesn’t work out, but they tend to fare better when they know exactly why. They may resent you for shielding her. Kids and adults do need to take out their anger on parents too, so they can process it for themselves.

I so recommend the truth. You’re allowing your wife to call the shots here too. She doesn’t want the kids to know the truth??? You’re prepared to let her lie to her daughters? They get to choose how they feel and how they react. Not your wife. Don’t let her lie to your kids.


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## ArthurGPym (Jun 28, 2021)

afather said:


> I wonder what and how evidence to collect now which would be admissable?


Are you in the US? There is no admissible evidence in most states. Most states are no-fault, meaning the Court will not care if one of the parties cheated. Adultery does not factor into the Court's judgement.


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## afather (Oct 20, 2021)

ArthurGPym said:


> Are you in the US? There is no admissible evidence in most states. Most states are no-fault, meaning the Court will not care if one of the parties cheated. Adultery does not factor into the Court's judgement.


Our household is in a "*fault* *divorce* *state*". Her apartment now is in the "no-fault divorce state", but I hope that doesn't matter and divorce papers should be submitted in our household state.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

You need to file. If she establishes residency in the no-fault state and files, that option’s gone.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

I will disagree about not telling the kids. They have a right to know what is going on. They will assign blame as they see fit with no idea why the two of you are separating. The only thing they need is that their mother hasn’t been faithful for the entire relationship. No details, just the simple truth.


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