# Is this the way men really think...?



## stumblealong

In the last few days, for some reason a topic keeps coming up. A guy in my class said that every guy when seeing an attractive chic, or even a not so attractive chick, his first thoughts are of having sex with her. Then in another conversation, with a totally different person at a different place said basically the same thing, that men think about having sex with just about every female he comes in contact with.

I'm posting this to the men on this forum, because in reading these posts on here for over a year, I have really read what seems to be genuine nice guys and I wonder if all men, even the nice ones, think like this? And if so what does that mean to the woman in their life?

I can honestly say that when i see or meet a good looking guy, sex isn't the first thing that pops in my mind. For some odd reason I have to get to know the person a bit. And I am a woman that has a pretty decent sex drive that is currently not being met. I do have a female friend who says that when she sees an attractive guy, her first thoughts are of sex with him, but she is the only woman I know that has said this (or would admit to it). 

I'm asking because my relationship is not doing so well, but to go out on the dating scene scares the crap outta me. Am I going to think that every time a guy glances at another female he's thinking of getting into her pants? Is it just a fleeting thought that doesn't mean anything? My man is not interested in having sex with me, but when he sees other women does he want to have sex with them? I asked him if he thought this way, of course he said 'no' but right now he's not going to say much that he thinks will tick me off. 

This may be a silly and immature question, but I've only been in 2 relationships (one right after the other) and I've been in a relationship since I was 15, haven't had a lot of different experiences with different men. I mean i know men think of sex a lot, so do i, but think of having sex with every woman you come into contact with? What the heck does that mean?

Thanks in advance to any replies
Stumble


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## Wrench

I'd say yes, most of the time. It's a guy thing, it's why we like porn and strippers more than women do. We think about sex a lot when we're younger but it fades a bit with age.

Don't read too much into it, it's not like we're planning on dating or flirting with them. Just humping crosses our dirty minds


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## AFEH

Guilty but it’s not every woman. I kind of watch myself a lot these days and if my eye lingers for 3 seconds then I’ve found the woman attractive in some way. Her looks, the way she dresses and the way she walks, her demeanour.

But it’s the same the other way around in that women do the same thing. They notice you in a crowd and their eyes linger. Some get quite embarrassed when they’ve done the 2 second “body scan” and become aware that they’ve scanned right down to between my legs. It’s both nice and amusing at the same time.

I’ve thought that those who complain about this sort of thing should, if they can, enjoy it for what it is, an attraction. Because as sure as eggs are eggs a lot of men and women wont get those same looks in their later years.

Bob


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## MisterNiceGuy

Guilty as charged... I think almost any healthy male sees an attractive woman and their first thought is sex... I was much worse at the staring thing, but I've gotten much better at just looking and not staring.


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## stumblealong

Confirmed! 4 men in one week who agree to this Hmmmm...I guess I never really gave it much thought to guys who were looking at me. i guess i thought, 'she's hot' and let it go, not that they were thinking about humping me Can you believe I've been called naive. I mean you see these guys that are just looking at you in a certain way and you know they are thinking dirty thoughts, but I guess most men are more discreet (thankfully).

I guess more the question is, let's say you are on a date, and this incredibly attractive waitress is serving you. Ok, now I know the guy I'm with is thinking of boinking her, but does her looks minimize the way he is looking at me? Don't get me wrong, I am attractive enough to hold my own, but even good looking women have insecurities, esp when the man she has been with for 13yrs has brought you down a bit in the self esteem dept. Even as I type this I'm feeling kinda stupid. Maybe i should post to women 'How not to think about your man that is thinking about having sex with your waitress'


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## okeydokie

oh heck yes, but i would NEVER act on it while married


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## luckyman

No. The thought does not just "appear." I have to allow the thought process to develop, which I don't do anymore. I am attracted to my wife and devoted to her. What use is fantasizing about other women? If I engage in such thoughts they usually lead to more of the same and then I am objectifying women and I don't like the idea of that. I think about having sex with my wife quite a bit, but sexual thoughts about other women, even though I could "get away" with them are not something I entertain.

It is a little discouraging to think that other men are sizing my wife up like this.


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## okeydokie

i can honestly say that if my sex life were better, it would probably be greatly minimized, just saying


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## BlackMedicine357

I'll weigh in on Bob's "yep, but not every female" side. My moral/logical aspect weeds out anybody (looking like) under 25 or over 60, under 110 lbs or over 150 lbs, nuns, friend's wives or girlfriends, Islamic females, burkas or no burkas, female officers, celebrities, skanky druggies, and any female that looks just "mean as Hell."

Outside of those, the brain flashes the thought and I acknowledge it and let it go. I acknowledge it, because I'm a GUY, I let it go because I am married and I have hurt my W and Ds when they've noticed me looking in the past. Dwelling on it also can get out of control if you let it, best just to dismiss it.

Black


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## stumblealong

Now 5  Confirmation times five!


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## okeydokie

stumblealong said:


> Now 5  Confirmation times five!


hope its not too shocking


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## MarriedWifeInLove

Not shocking to me.

Even with my husbands decreased sex drive and inability to perform properly - he yells sexual inuendo's at Seinfeld!

It's true what my husband said once.

When it comes to women and sex - deep down inside we're all scumbags and it's just who we are.

I'm starting to believe that more and more and more everyday! HA


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## stumblealong

Alright, most men agree that this is what just pops in there head, but luckyman on here states he can control those thoughts. This may be a little encouraging I do think just by human nature, if you are truly in love with someone those thoughts can be minimized or outright denied because your love for someone outweighs the fleeting thought of boinking some woman. I'm thinking most men do not think this is a concern because it is there own private thoughts, and it's not going to hurt anyone if they don't know. Agreed...but y'all let the cat out of the bag now, I KNOW WHAT YOU ARE THINKING


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## frustr8dhubby

Make it 6. Yes I'm shallow, I am male.  But I will admit if I find a woman attractive my first thoughts go there and I tend to think of myself as a "nice guy".

However, to alay your concerns about dating. That does not mean I am going to do anything and everything to get in your pants. I will still treat you with respect and admiration deserving of women but unfortunately that primal brain of mine will be thinking of sex on frequent occasion. Sorry.


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## BlackMedicine357

luckyman said:


> No. The thought does not just "appear." I have to allow the thought process to develop, which I don't do anymore. I am attracted to my wife and devoted to her. What use is fantasizing about other women? If I engage in such thoughts they usually lead to more of the same and then I am objectifying women and I don't like the idea of that. I think about having sex with my wife quite a bit, but sexual thoughts about other women, even though I could "get away" with them are not something I entertain.
> 
> It is a little discouraging to think that other men are sizing my wife up like this.


Lucky, you are a noble creature. You state your case well and I feel the same way. (See my initial reply.) 

I'd say you can't help looking, but dwelling on it is a choice.

Or (like I think a famous Pastor once said):

"You can't keep birds from flying over your head, but you can keep them from building a nest on your head."

I also think (almost all day sometimes) about great romps with my W (extremely rare over the last 2 years) frequently.

Also I consider my W the best looking girl I know overall. Sure she's changed some, so have I. But the changes in her appearance just remind me who she is to me and what we've been through together. She's still beautiful to me, and looks like she's in her 20s. ( I can't say that about myself.)

Black


Black


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## AFEH

stumblealong said:


> Alright, most men agree that this is what just pops in there head, but luckyman on here states he can control those thoughts. This may be a little encouraging I do think just by human nature, if you are truly in love with someone those thoughts can be minimized or outright denied because your love for someone outweighs the fleeting thought of boinking some woman. I'm thinking most men do not think this is a concern because it is there own private thoughts, and it's not going to hurt anyone if they don't know. Agreed...but y'all let the cat out of the bag now, I KNOW WHAT YOU ARE THINKING


:smthumbup: It’s typically no more than a 5 to 10 second thought. Hang me for that???

Bob


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## BlackMedicine357

okeydokie said:


> i can honestly say that if my sex life were better, it would probably be greatly minimized, just saying


:iagree: The task would definitely be much easier if we were getting frequent service:smthumbup:.

Nuff said.

Black


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## luckyman

stumblealong said:


> Alright, most men agree that this is what just pops in there head, but luckyman on here states he can control those thoughts. This may be a little encouraging
> I would add that it is easy for me due to the fact that I am extremely attracted to my wife, and that I am not left wanting any other...I am a lucky man.
> 
> I do think just by human nature, if you are truly in love with someone those thoughts can be minimized or outright denied because your love for someone outweighs the fleeting thought of boinking some woman. I'm thinking most men do not think this is a concern because it is there own private thoughts, and it's not going to hurt anyone if they don't know. Agreed...but y'all let the cat out of the bag now, I KNOW WHAT YOU ARE THINKING


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## PBear

Define "thinking of sex"... I see an attractive woman, and I can appreciate that she's beautiful, has a nice body, etc. But I'm not picturing myself in a porn flick with her or anything. 

As far as an attractive waitress when I'm on a date... I wouldn't be surprised if my eyes flick across her when she crosses my field of view, but it's an incidental thing. It's not a problem to stay focused on my date.

My current partner, on the other hand... Thoughts of wild monkey sex with her cross my mind on a regular basis (i.e. multiple times a day). And as soon as I see her, let's just say that it becomes obvious to her that I'm happy to see her... I'm sure there's something of Pavlov's dog in me... She has me conditioned.

C


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## Conrad

I am dead-level certain men size-up my wife like that all day long.

In their hearts, they think I'm a lucky guy.

Guess what? They are RIGHT.


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## luckyman

PBear said:


> Define "thinking of sex"... I see an attractive woman, and I can appreciate that she's beautiful, has a nice body, etc. But I'm not picturing myself in a porn flick with her or anything.
> 
> As far as an attractive waitress when I'm on a date... I wouldn't be surprised if my eyes flick across her when she crosses my field of view, but it's an incidental thing. It's not a problem to stay focused on my date.
> 
> My current partner, on the other hand... Thoughts of wild monkey sex with her cross my mind on a regular basis (i.e. multiple times a day). And as soon as I see her, let's just say that it becomes obvious to her that I'm happy to see her... I'm sure there's something of Pavlov's dog in me... She has me conditioned.
> 
> C


I like the distinction you make between noticing that a woman is attractive versus imagining sex with her.


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## Runs like Dog

More than that I picture in my mind what she looks like climaxing in various positions.


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## Conrad

Runs like Dog said:


> More than that I picture in my mind what she looks like climaxing in various positions.


Doggie style?


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## Runs like Dog

Any style; standing, sitting, bent over a table, spooning, from behind, lotus, cowgirl, whatever.


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## stumblealong

Now, I can appreciate the fact that someone looks at another and thinks their attractive. But, what the conversations were that led me to this discussion is these men claimed that when they see any woman that had any attractive quality to them, nice butt, ect, his thoughts are how he wants to 'get at that' or the other guy said he immediately had thoughts of having sex with that woman, as a fleeting thought, soon to be forgotten about. I just was wondering if that was a typical thought of when seeing an attractive woman, instantly having sex with that woman comes to mind. I do believe that 99% of men would not act on it, such as pursuing the woman (if they are in a relationship, that is). 

I guess my concern is this...if my man instantly thinks of sex when seeing an attractive woman...does this minimize his feelings for me? Does he wish I looked like that? Or is it a thought that is there and gone, no comparisons are made.


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## stumblealong

Runs like Dog said:


> More than that I picture in my mind what she looks like climaxing in various positions.


For real?


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## stumblealong

AFEH said:


> :smthumbup: It’s typically no more than a 5 to 10 second thought. Hang me for that???
> 
> Bob


No, I don't think you should be hanged for this Maybe flogged! JK


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## frustr8dhubby

If I am being honest there might be a time where I compare. I might think I wish she had a chest like that, etc.

HOWEVER, it in no way diminishes my love for my wife, no. I love ALL of her, I don't love the attractive woman in any way other than she is physically appealing. Generally speaking we men are visual creatures. (Again, just primal instinct).


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## Wrench

stumblealong said:


> I guess my concern is this...if my man instantly thinks of sex when seeing an attractive woman...does this minimize his feelings for me? Does he wish I looked like that? Or is it a thought that is there and gone, no comparisons are made.


We can't help it and we certianly don't think THAT deep about it (we're men after all!).

I think most of the time we take them for what they are, sexual urges. For me "making love" and dirty thoughts are miles apart. 

I get all giddy when I see a muscle car at a crosswalk but I don't hate and judge my wife's sedan when I get in it.


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## Therealbrighteyes

Just so you know, us women pick up on/see that and their might be a very specific reason that the ones who say "heck yes" are also the ones saying "my wife doesn't want sex with me". Notice LuckyMan isn't in that category? Food for thought.


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## stumblealong

frustr8dhubby said:


> If I am being honest there might be a time where I compare. I might think I wish she had a chest like that, etc.
> 
> HOWEVER, it in no way diminishes my love for my wife, no. I love ALL of her, I don't love the attractive woman in any way other than she is physically appealing. Generally speaking we men are visual creatures. (Again, just primal instinct).


Thank you for your honesty. I'm glad to hear it doesn't effect your feelings for your wife. This is not an issue that is going to make it or break it with my man or anyone in the future, I just was curious as to why these are the thoughts that come to mind for a man (or woman even, just on a smaller level). 

Let me be honest. I wish I was one of those ultra-confident women who could care less if their man is thinking of having sex with the boobie flasher at the races, but i'm just not. I have to say it kinda hurts my feelings. I do what I have to, to be attractive for my man, but the aging process sucks. Unless you go drastic with plastic surgery, it is hard to keep up! What's a gal to do?


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## stumblealong

Brennan said:


> Just so you know, us women pick up on/see that and their might be a very specific reason that the ones who say "heck yes" are also the ones saying "my wife doesn't want sex with me". Notice LuckyMan isn't in that category? Food for thought.


I think you are on to something....good job picking up on that


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## stumblealong

Wrench said:


> I get all giddy when I see a muscle car at a crosswalk but I don't hate and judge my wife's sedan when I get in it.


Point taken! Nice analogy:rofl:


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## Therealbrighteyes

stumblealong said:


> Thank you for your honesty. I'm glad to hear it doesn't effect your feelings for your wife. This is not an issue that is going to make it or break it with my man or anyone in the future, I just was curious as to why these are the thoughts that come to mind for a man (or woman even, just on a smaller level).
> 
> Let me be honest. I wish I was one of those ultra-confident women who could care less if their man is thinking of having sex with the boobie flasher at the races, but i'm just not. I have to say it kinda hurts my feelings. I do what I have to, to be attractive for my man, but the aging process sucks. Unless you go drastic with plastic surgery, it is hard to keep up! What's a gal to do?


Turn the tables on him and check out hotter, younger men. Make it as obvious as he is making it to you. Turn around is fair play.
Hell, flash YOUR tits at the racetrack.


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## BlackMedicine357

Brennan said:


> Just so you know, us women pick up on/see that and their might be a very specific reason that the ones who say "heck yes" are also the ones saying "my wife doesn't want sex with me". Notice LuckyMan isn't in that category? Food for thought.


Well...there ya go! See, I told y'all! It still comes down to consideration for your situation. Single, go for it. Dating, don't do it when she's with you. Married, don't do it at all.

Nuff Said!

Black


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## Wrench

stumblealong said:


> Point taken! Nice analogy:rofl:


:smthumbup:

Brennan's right too, even if I drool over my wife she seems to not like it. But I've had g/f's with a higher libido than me so I guess it depends on the person.


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## AFEH

Brennan said:


> Just so you know, us women pick up on/see that and their might be a very specific reason that the ones who say "heck yes" are also the ones saying "my wife doesn't want sex with me". Notice LuckyMan isn't in that category? Food for thought.


You're way off in my case Brennan. 

Bob


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## frustr8dhubby

Brennan, please excuse my smarmyness but get over yourself. I wouldn't stop my wife from checking out other men. I KNOW there are way hotter guys out there than me.

As I said, another attractive woman doesn't make my wife any less attractive nor do I love her any less.


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## Therealbrighteyes

Wrench said:


> :smthumbup:
> 
> Brennan's right too, even if I drool over my wife she seems to not like it. But I've had g/f's with a higher libido than me so I guess it depends on the person.


Ahem, with all due respect, you also just compared other women to a muscle car and your wife to a sedan. Do you doubt for a second she doesn't pick up on that? I sure did and I don't even know you.


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## Therealbrighteyes

frustr8dhubby said:


> Brennan, please excuse my smarmyness but get over yourself. I wouldn't stop my wife from checking out other men. I KNOW there are way hotter guys out there than me.
> 
> As I said, another attractive woman doesn't make my wife any less attractive nor do I love her any less.


Get over myself? I am telling you from a woman's perspective who has had and continues to have this happen to her. It does hurt, it sucks and it is real. Some of us who have self esteem issues like this OP find it difficult to have the mindset of "men will be men" no matter how true it might be. It doesn't mean you love your wife less, it might, just perhaps mean that SHE feels less than because of this. I know I do. Like I said, it hurts. Okay?


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## MarriedWifeInLove

Brennan said:


> Turn the tables on him and check out hotter, younger men. Make it as obvious as he is making it to you. Turn around is fair play.
> Hell, flash YOUR tits at the racetrack.


I tried that once and drooled all over what I thought was good-looking man, even mentioned - wow, he's hot.

My husband acted like he didn't even hear me (though I know he did).

Maybe his "outlook" on me thinking other men are hot will change dramatically post-surgery - guess time will tell - I'll let you know!


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## Wrench

Brennan said:


> Ahem, with all due respect, you also just compared other women to a muscle car and your wife to a sedan. Do you doubt for a second she doesn't pick up on that? I sure did and I don't even know you.


See, that's why I usually keep my mouth shut

I was describing my feelings not comparing my wife to a sedan, she's a luxury coupe. (no wonder she's ditching my ******* ass)


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## okeydokie

Brennan said:


> Just so you know, us women pick up on/see that and their might be a very specific reason that the ones who say "heck yes" are also the ones saying "my wife doesn't want sex with me". Notice LuckyMan isn't in that category? Food for thought.


well i didnt say i did it in front of my wife for crying out loud, im not stupid


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## Jellybeans

stumblealong said:


> Hmmmm...I guess I never really gave it much thought to guys who were looking at me. i guess i thought, 'she's hot' and let it go, not that they were thinking about humping me


:rofl:

Interesting thread. I have heard this before but just assumed it was some man myth. So do men think abou the act and everything? Is it detailed (the thoughts)?

Wow.


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## stumblealong

Brennan said:


> Turn the tables on him and check out hotter, younger men. Make it as obvious as he is making it to you. Turn around is fair play.
> Hell, flash YOUR tits at the racetrack.


Ha:lol: I would love to turn the tables, but I just can't see myself doin that I do think it is fair play tho, MOST men wouldn't like their women to think of sex with another man. I know relationships where both partners are confident enough to where they don't mind their partner checking out others. My man goes balistic if another man looks at me or if I supposedly look at another man. But it is the old double standard, he can do it, but not me.
Brennan- you are one of those ultra-confident women aren't you? would you flash your tits?


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## Jellybeans

Trenton said:


> Funny. If I even talk about Johnny Depp my husband gets all...What?! I can't believe you said that!


Sigh. I love Johnny Depp.


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## stumblealong

Brennan said:


> Get over myself? I am telling you from a woman's perspective who has had and continues to have this happen to her. It does hurt, it sucks and it is real. Some of us who have self esteem issues like this OP find it difficult to have the mindset of "men will be men" no matter how true it might be. It doesn't mean you love your wife less, it might, just perhaps mean that SHE feels less than because of this. I know I do. Like I said, it hurts. Okay?


Oh good it's not just me! Yes, feelings get hurt. esp when there are problems in the relationship. It does make you feel less, like you are not what he wants. I mean I realize this may be an instinctual thing and men may not mean any harm in it (unless they make it obvious), but it can still make us feel like crap.


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## frustr8dhubby

Jellybeans,

For me, no, no detail, just pretty much a quick "Wow, she's hot" kind of thing.

Brennan,

Fair enough, I by no means meant to downplay your feelings. And I didn't say "men will be men" is acceptable in all (or even most) cases. I am just being honest and stating that THIS man views other attractive women. I didn't say it was right.

Trenton,

That's a good question. Sometimes (at least for me) it can be a distraction. But as I keep saying it is generally just a quick thought not something that consumes my day.


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## Therealbrighteyes

stumblealong said:


> Ha:lol: I would love to turn the tables, but I just can't see myself doin that I do think it is fair play tho, MOST men wouldn't like their women to think of sex with another man. I know relationships where both partners are confident enough to where they don't mind their partner checking out others. My man goes balistic if another man looks at me or if I supposedly look at another man. But it is the old double standard, he can do it, but not me.
> Brennan- you are one of those ultra-confident women aren't you? would you flash your tits?


Ultra confident? Hardly, I just play one. I did flash my tits at Mardi Gras and boy did it feel good. Hubby was standing next to me and for whatever reason the mood came over and bam, twins were out. What he has been missing out on for 17 years suddenly became the awe of many. I take care of myself. I look great. I am in better shape than I was at 20. You better believe flashing a crowd felt great. I have beads to show for it, many.


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## okeydokie

Brennan said:


> Ultra confident? Hardly, I just play one. I did flash my tits at Mardi Gras and boy did it feel good. Hubby was standing next to me and for whatever reason the mood came over and bam, twins were out. What he has been missing out on for 17 years suddenly became the awe of many. I take care of myself. I look great. I am in better shape than I was at 20. You better believe flashing a crowd felt great. I have beads to show for it, many.


so do you think any men saw them and thought yummy?


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## Halien

I think I have always had a very healthy sex drive, but I absolutely do not think of sex with most of the women I see. It was something I deliberately addressed as an adult. I think it sometimes has alot to do with a healthy sex life in the marriage. But when they dress somewhat provocatively, thats a different story. Or maybe if they move in a position that accentuates their shape. Or maybe, on the beach...

Just kidding. I really just figured that if a couple of decades didn't make me feel bored with the one woman who continues to mystify me, then adding more variety to the mental image mix would only confound me. Still, when she was pregnant, and the doctor said that her condition prevented sex for the next billion minutes or so, has any other guy out there starting noticing just how sexy the shell bikini is on the little mermaid video that the kids were watching?


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## Therealbrighteyes

okeydokie said:


> so do you think any men saw them and thought yummy?


As a Seinfeld episode once said: "They are real and they are spectacular".


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## okeydokie

Brennan said:


> As a Seinfeld episode once said: "They are real and they are spectacular".


gawd forbib anyone would want to experience what you showed to all


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## Boogsie

The number of women I see and have sexual thoughts about is inversely proportional to the last time I had relations with my wife. Right now I am over two months. 

I can get to the point where I will have thoughts about cardboard cutouts until my brain processes the image and I realize I've been had. 

In the past when I was satisfied with my sexual relationship with my wife this was not an issue for me. Don't get me wrong, I am a male and I always admire the female form, but I don't have sex thoughts until I've gone a certain amount of time with no activity. Eventually it gets to the point (like now) where a good breeze can spawn sexual thoughts.


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## Jellybeans

frustr8dhubby said:


> Jellybeans,
> 
> For me, no, no detail, just pretty much a quick "Wow, she's hot" kind of thing.


So is it more of a quick "Wow, she's hot, I just imagined us having sex" and then it ends? I haz a confused. LOL.


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## Therealbrighteyes

Robbie,
I did it to prove a point, albeit drunk. While he is out there lusting after other women, visually undressing them and imaging having sex with them, guess what that did to my self esteem? 17 years worth.
Plenty lusted after me, his wife. It didn't feel so great to him. Not by a long shot but it sure as hell made me feel awesome. 
Turnaround IS fair play.


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## Runs like Dog

stumblealong said:


> For real?


The thought does cross my mind from time to time. No not all the time, seriously.


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## Amplexor

In my twenties probably yes, I'd have a quick fantasy. Now that I'm in my fifties I'd more likely wonder if they'd make a good bridge partner.


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## Runs like Dog

To be absolutely honest, the first thing I notice about a woman, any woman is how she's dressed including shoes, then her general physical appearance, then her face. Cheap shoes and bad clothes are a real problem for me. Then her jewelery. 

If we're speaking I tend to focus on the mouth and eyes. I am hard of hearing on the left side so I have to get close and tilt my head to the left if my hearing aid isn't in. I have to announce this so people don't get worried by my possible intrusion into their personal space. I am a fair lip reader so again, I look at her mouth and eyes. General body language is last. I'm not good at reading body language. But because I have this hearing thing I zoom in on the voice and focus hard on it. A woman with a pleasant voice is a great thing. It could be sweet sounding, or baby sounding or sexy or smoky or low. Whatever, if it's not screechy or Fran Drescher, that's nice. 

One thing I find really irritating about many people men and women is when they nod their heads over what I'm saying. It just bothers the crap out of me. 

In a business setting, some cultures are high touch. So you're not a bad person if you touch the other person, on the arm for instance. Others' that strictly a faux pas.


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## Jellybeans

Amplexor said:


> In my twenties probably yes, I'd have a quick fantasy. Now that I'm in my fifties I'd more likely wonder if they'd make a good bridge partner.


LOL!

Runs, I also hate cheap shoes!


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## Niceguy13

Haha yes and no for me. I admire all beautiful women and that range is wide and varied some its just from darwin attraction (strong female that would produce good offspring with me whose pheremones attract me) No controlling that. Barring those women though no sex isn't the first thing that pops in my head. 

Don't get me wrong I think about sex constantly even more so since my recent forray into celibacy........that hole in the wall is looking more and more temping .... But is either with a vague abstract of a woman or my wife. Before I got married I only slept with women that gave me the uncontrollable urge where I thought about sex with them.


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## Syrum

Brennan said:


> Just so you know, us women pick up on/see that and their might be a very specific reason that the ones who say "heck yes" are also the ones saying "my wife doesn't want sex with me". Notice LuckyMan isn't in that category? Food for thought.


Yes very interesting. Hmmmm.


----------



## Syrum

I have a few points about this thread.

A lot of men say they wouldn't be bothered if their wives did, but most are not worried that their wives are really thinking about actually having sex with other men. They often think she doesn't want sex, so why would she be thinking about having it with others? They would be very very hurt if they really thought their wife was sizing up almost every man she met and thinking about his **** inside her.

Secondly I think men are somewhat conditioned to think this way, with the pornification of just about everything. Women are judged all the time by how f^&kable they are , instead of being seen as people first. I don't think all men do do this, just that society tells them it's fine and expected, so a lot of men believe and expect to be able to do this and then to justify it by "It's a man thing".


I think it's a real shame. And guys because society is pushing women to do the same thing in order to justify males increasingly overt bevaviour towards women, don't be surprised if it bites you on the @ss. Unfortunately I don't think any of us will be better off, just reducing people to objects sadly.


----------



## seeking sanity

I find the general man hating in this threat disconcerting - by both men and women. 

Men, by saying "I'm a pig, but I good pig" validates the point of view that it is somehow wrong to have sexual thought. Sexual thoughts are a result of testosterone. It's how men are. Putting a value judgement on it, invalidates the male gender.

Women, the snarky comments that men are somehow deficient/inferior because of their thoughts applies some female standard of superiority. What the hell gives you the right to moralize.


----------



## Syrum

seeking sanity said:


> I find the general man hating in this threat disconcerting - by both men and women.
> 
> Men, by saying "I'm a pig, but I good pig" validates the point of view that it is somehow wrong to have sexual thought. Sexual thoughts are a result of testosterone. It's how men are. Putting a value judgement on it, invalidates the male gender.
> 
> Women, the snarky comments that men are somehow deficient/inferior because of their thoughts applies some female standard of superiority. What the hell gives you the right to moralize.


Man hating:scratchhead:? sexual thoughts are not just the result of testosterone. they are the result of social conditioning, just think about other societies where breasts are not sexualised and fetishised, if all men instinctively thought about women the same way or about sex because of testosterone it would stand to reason we would see the same treatment of women everywhere, and that all men would find breasts to be sexually arousing. much of our behaviour we are conditioned into. Our society teaches men to think like this, so it's no wonder many do, however they can retrain their brain and be respectful of other people and women, even just in their heads.

I actually think we do men a disservice when we say men can't help certain behaviours, we sell them short and make them non humans too, without complex emotions and thought processes. Some will say men aren't like that, that thye are simple and many will joke about it, but I believe other wise, and know many good men who show me that this is true, even on these boards a lot of men show a lot of depth. Men are very capable of treating all people like humans first and foremost, but making excuses for poor behaviour doesn't help and it's not man hating, it is in fact the opposite.


----------



## Catherine602

Syrum said:


> I have a few points about this thread.
> 
> A lot of men say they wouldn't be bothered if their wives did, but most are not worried that their wives are really thinking about actually having sex with other men. They often think she doesn't want sex, so why would she be thinking about having it with others? They would be very very hurt if they really thought their wife was sizing up almost every man she met and thinking about his **** inside her.
> 
> Secondly I think men are somewhat conditioned to think this way, with the pornification of just about everything. Women are judged all the time by how f^&kable they are , instead of being seen as people first. I don't think all men do do this, just that society tells them it's fine and expected, so a lot of men believe and expect to be able to do this and then to justify it by "It's a man thing".
> 
> 
> I think it's a real shame. And guys because society is pushing women to do the same thing in order to justify males increasingly overt bevaviour towards women, don't be surprised if it bites you on the @ss. Unfortunately I don't think any of us will be better off, just reducing people to objects sadly.


Word up
Sexual urges are controllable just like the other common human urges like the urge to murder, maim and steal. Humans don't have instincts. **** sapiens are unique in that for us, instincts have been replaced by free will.

Staring and thinking about sex with every woman who crosses a mans path is a choice by individual men. I agree with Syrum - in our increasingly pornified society, being a gentlemen and behaving respectfully towards women is out of fashion. 

Women have a tendency to follow the male lead - young women are becomming more judgemental of male looks and sexual performance and more vocal about it. In one generation, it will probably be common for women to objectify men too. I wonder how the men who beat their chest about the man thing will feel when they are subjected to the critical gaze of women. 

I think male sexual functioning is more frigile than women. That may seem counterintuitive but, how many men could function sexually under a demanding, entitled, porn fantasy driven expectation of sexual performance that woman have to function under? 

May cause a spike in ED, the male equivalent of female loss of sexual desire due to performence anxiety.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Syrum

Catherine thank you for that.  And it's no surprise I agree with you.


----------



## unbelievable

I behave respectfully to all women but I'm a guy. Mentally, I categorize women in little piles (those I'd do and those I wouldn't do). Naturally, I'm married and I'm not going to actually act on any such thoughts and I don't sit around fantasizing about other women, but for a brief half-second, every woman gets categorized. I think all men do this and those who claim they don't are either gay or fibbing.


----------



## AFEH

Catherine602 said:


> I wonder how the men who beat their chest about the man thing will feel when they are subjected to the critical gaze of women.


That’s been happening for the past 4 decades at least with me lol. I’ve been invited to pool parties, had women watch for me to come out of the shower, chased by women who don’t know me so I guess just for my “looks”, women who wanted sex with me just to see “what I’m like”. Maybe I’m the equivalent of the blonde bimbo lol. It happens with my sons as well, a lot of women “turn and look” at them, they’re good looking guys.

I just find it “nice and amusing”. I ain’t go no complaints.

Bob


----------



## Syrum

AFEH said:


> That’s been happening for the past 4 decades at least with me lol. I’ve been invited to pool parties, had women watch for me to come out of the shower, chased by women who don’t know me so I guess just for my “looks”, women who wanted sex with me just to see “what I’m like”. Maybe I’m the equivalent of the blonde bimbo lol. It happens with my sons as well, a lot of women “turn and look” at them, they’re good looking guys.
> 
> I just find it “nice and amusing”. I ain’t go no complaints.
> 
> Bob


Yes but if you felt you were being criticised instead of admired you might, which may well happen, and if you thought your wife was doing it and comparing you to others you may well not think that way. 

Besides your merits as a person probably don't yet rest in if women would do you or not. Imagine how you would feel if your were catagorized by others into f&^kable and non f^&kable. If your wife was comparing you to porn stars in the bedroom, or was thinking about what every single man she met would be like in bed, what his **** was like, and how it would feel inside her.


----------



## AFEH

Syrum said:


> Yes but if you felt you were being criticised instead of admired you might, which may well happen, and if you thought your wife was doing it and comparing you to others you may well not think that way.
> 
> Besides your merits as a person probably don't yet rest in if women would do you or not. Imagine how you would feel if your were catagorized by others into f&^kable and non f^&kable. If your wife was comparing you to porn stars in the bedroom, or was thinking about what every single man she met would be like in bed, what his **** was like, and how it would feel inside her.


Of course some people criticise, of course they do. Why on earth should I let that bother me? I’m very comfortable with who I am, including my inner most thoughts.

As for my stbx she’s always been one very attractive woman and I’m certain she’s seen off many advances, I know she’s given into a few. It is life.

I never expected to go through life never being attracted to another woman. Sometimes that attraction is at the deepest levels. But of course it doesn’t mean we have to go there. But to say there’ll never be an attraction to another woman is to deny “nature” and all its glory.

Bob


----------



## okeydokie

im sure none of the women in here have ever gawked at a hot guy with thoughts of bedding him, puhleese


----------



## Syrum

AFEH said:


> Of course some people criticise, of course they do. Why on earth should I let that bother me? I’m very comfortable with who I am, including my inner most thoughts.
> 
> As for my stbx she’s always been one very attractive woman and I’m certain she’s seen off many advances, I know she’s given into a few. It is life.
> 
> I never expected to go through life never being attracted to another woman. Sometimes that attraction is at the deepest levels. But of course it doesn’t mean we have to go there. But to say there’ll never be an attraction to another woman is to deny “nature” and all its glory.
> 
> Bob


But this thread isn't about just attraction, it's about allowing your self to imagine having sex with some one else. That's very different. And I think men are so blase about it because they know (or think they know) it doesn't effect them and certainly doesn't seep into almost every aspect of their life the way it does to women. 

You may have noticed some women looking at you, but would it not make you uncomfortable to know you were being judged by them and catagorised and she was thinking, would I sleep with him or not, with every woman you met? This then would effect the way this woman views and interacts with you. If someone catagorises you as a friend, you are safe from their sexual, gaze but have in a sense been deemed unworthy and unnatractive from a mere glance, and if they deem you worthy of sex, they are only thinking about you as a sexual object, not the complex person you are. 

This is a big mistake many people- some women and clearly a lot of men on here make IMO.


----------



## AFEH

Jellybeans said:


> :rofl:
> 
> Interesting thread. I have heard this before but just assumed it was some man myth. So do men think abou the act and everything? Is it detailed (the thoughts)?
> 
> Wow.


I think what goes through a man’s head is all down to the individual man and their current situation.

For example I’m separated coming on for 18 months and I’m allowing my thoughts to go to having another woman in my life. I’m just trying to “get used to the idea”. Being with the same woman for over 4 decades gives me a problem in this regard. For me, there must be a sexual attraction, that’s just part of who I am. So I check myself out to see if I’m sexually attracted. That doesn’t include the whole sex act, never has and probably never will, it’s just about sexual attraction, desire even. Then if she looks fit in that she looks after herself, has a good demeanour and she’s confident it just all adds up to my attraction. Then if I feel the attraction coming back all well and good. Having taken it to the next stage yet though lol.

Bob


----------



## okeydokie

Syrum said:


> But this thread isn't about just attraction, it's about allowing your self to imagine having sex with some one else. That's very different. And I think men are so blase about it because they know (or think they know) it doesn't effect them and certainly doesn't seep into almost every aspect of their life the way it does to women.
> 
> You may have noticed some women looking at you, but would it not make you uncomfortable to know you were being judged by them and catagorised and she was thinking, would I sleep with him or not, with every woman you met? This then would effect the way this woman views and interacts with you. If someone catagorises you as a friend, you are safe from their sexual, gaze but have in a sense been deemed unworthy and unnatractive from a mere glance, and if they deem you worthy of sex, they are only thinking about you as a sexual object, not the complex person you are.
> 
> This is a big mistake many people- some women and clearly a lot of men on here make IMO.



syrum, i have a gift that allows me to absolutely not give a rats *** what anyone else is thinking about me. maybe it comes with age. but i would consider it flattering if i knew a random woman deemed me worthy of a hump. i think its more of a female thing to be wanted for your mind, not just your body. however, the way ALOT of women dress in public might say otherwise and is quite confusing at times


----------



## Syrum

okeydokie said:


> syrum, i have a gift that allows me to absolutely not give a rats *** what anyone else is thinking about me. maybe it comes with age. but i would consider it flattering if i knew a random woman deemed me worthy of a hump. i think its more of a female thing to be wanted for your mind, not just your body. however, the way ALOT of women dress in public might say otherwise and is quite confusing at times


And as a man in a patriarchal world, who has not been judged as harshly or as often as women, it's very easy to say that.

I believe it's called a position of privilege. 

And again you guys are cool with your women catagorising every single man they meet and deciding if he looks good enough to put his **** inside her, and what it will feel like if they did it? Cool.:smthumbup:

You know what I don't care what anybody thinks of me either, it's very different not caring what someone thinks of me, because I know I'm a good person, who cares about others etc, and not wanting every man I meet to think about whether or not he wants to f%^k me. I do know some men who have made it obvious what they are thinking in that regard, and gives me the shivers and I think they are creeps. 

I'm sick of living in a society that says that women are sexual objects and SOME men will do as they please, so tough sh!t.


----------



## AFEH

Syrum said:


> But this thread isn't about just attraction, it's about allowing your self to imagine having sex with some one else. That's very different. And I think men are so blase about it because they know (or think they know) it doesn't effect them and certainly doesn't seep into almost every aspect of their life the way it does to women.
> 
> You may have noticed some women looking at you, but would it not make you uncomfortable to know you were being judged by them and catagorised and she was thinking, would I sleep with him or not, with every woman you met? This then would effect the way this woman views and interacts with you. If someone catagorises you as a friend, you are safe from their sexual, gaze but have in a sense been deemed unworthy and unnatractive from a mere glance, and if they deem you worthy of sex, they are only thinking about you as a sexual object, not the complex person you are.
> 
> This is a big mistake many people- some women and clearly a lot of men on here make IMO.


The above happens occasionally to me with "women" from 18 to 70 years old! None of it bothers me!

Bob


----------



## SimplyAmorous

stumblealong said:


> I have really read what seems to be genuine nice guys and I wonder if all men, even the nice ones, think like this? And if so what does that mean to the woman in their life?


I am married to one of these genuine nice guys, I have asked him this question, if in his youth (especially since his Test was more raging) If he had immediate thoughts of me sexually & he said NO, he noticed my face 1st, I asked him if he thought sexual thoughts about us doing it after we got together and he still told me No, I looked at him & said "WHAT -that is not freaking normal for a guy", I was even a little disappointed to be honest. Like why in the world was he not thinking about "doing me". His answers were very mushy & love filled, so not jumping on him but really, I think this is normal behavior for men -especially when younger, it is related to their Higher Test -which fuels their fantasies -which of coarse are sexual. My husband has always been a little outside of the box though. 

But definitely Yes, my husband is like any other red blooded man, he ENJOYS looking at beautiful women walk past for a moment, he gets turned on visually , but says he never accually ENVISIONS himself engaged with any of them sexually. He has never done this. It is just a passing joy of seeing beauty. 

He knows he can tell me any darn thing cause I have done this!  I am more like the men, he knows it too, he doesnt care where my brain is at. My fantasies were out of control for a time and I would be thinking "mmmmm I would like to do him". So Syrum, you can jump all over me, I am an oogler. A dirty old woman. ha ha  But I still love my husband and am faithful incarnate.  

And Stumblealong, I would not too be worried if a man does this, in fact it is just a sign of a very healthy Sex Drive in my opionion, as Testosterone is known for influencing the brain with runaway fantasies. The higher it is-the more the man enjoys sex, the more he is likely to engage in such thinking-it is a passing RUSH to him. So long as they don't make it OBVIOUS when you are out, so what ! If they treat you with respect in all ways, I would not let this bother me at all. It is a MAN thing. Why men talk to men about these things & not us women cause we get all bent out of shape.

This is something you want -given your current situation with your husband NOT being interested in sex. It by no way means - as you have read in many of these posts -that these MEN will be unfaithful or are not decent men who love & cherish their wives.

The last thing you want, after what you have been through is one who is So respectful, never has a desious thought and won't be motivated in the bedroom. Yikes, run from that !


----------



## okeydokie

Syrum said:


> I'm sick of living in a society that says that women are sexual objects and SOME men will do as they please, so tough sh!t.


and there is a great portion of the female gender that like to be appreciated for their looks, and sexual attraction is the basis for that. if it didnt matter, everyone would be huge, sweaty and gross. its my belief that women can be their own worst enemy by creating this stigma, then trying to deny and fight it

a hot lady wearing a miniskirt and a low cut top in public doesnt expect to gawked at? or flashing the crowd at mardi gras?


----------



## Jellybeans

AFEH said:


> I think what goes through a man’s head is all down to the individual man and their current situation.
> 
> For example I’m separated coming on for 18 months and I’m allowing my thoughts to go to having another woman in my life. I’m just trying to “get used to the idea”. Being with the same woman for over 4 decades gives me a problem in this regard. For me, there must be a sexual attraction, that’s just part of who I am. So I check myself out to see if I’m sexually attracted. That doesn’t include the whole sex act, never has and probably never will, it’s just about sexual attraction, desire even. Then if she looks fit in that she looks after herself, has a good demeanour and she’s confident it just all adds up to my attraction. Then if I feel the attraction coming back all well and good. Having taken it to the next stage yet though lol.
> 
> Bob


Women are this way too. I know I am. If I see a guy who is handsome, while I don't think of sex, I think "he's hot."


----------



## Syrum

okeydokie said:


> and there is a great portion of the female gender that like to be appreciated for their looks, and sexual attraction is the basis for that. if it didnt matter, everyone would be huge, sweaty and gross. its my belief that women can be their own worst enemy by creating this stigma, then trying to deny and fight it
> 
> a hot lady wearing a miniskirt and a low cut top in public doesnt expect to gawked at? or flashing the crowd at mardi gras?


This is because women are taught to view themselves through the male gaze.


> In feminist theory, the male gaze expresses an asymmetric (unequal) power relationship, between viewer and viewed, gazer and gazed, i.e. man imposes his unwanted (objectifying) gaze upon woman. Second Wave feminists argue that whether or not women welcome the gaze, they might merely be conforming to the hegemonic norms established to benefit the interests of men — thus underscoring the power of the male gaze to reduce a person (man or woman) to an object (see also exhibitionism).
> 
> The existence of an analogous female gaze[5][6][7][8] arises when the male gaze is considered. Mulvey argues that "the male figure cannot bear the burden of sexual objectification. Man is reluctant to gaze…" Describing Wide Sargasso Sea (1966), by Jean Rhys, Nalini Paul indicates that the Antoinette character gazes at Rochester, placing a garland upon him, making him appear heroic: "Rochester does not feel comfortable with having this role enforced upon him; thus, he rejects it by removing the garland, and crushing the flowers".
> 
> From the male perspective, man possesses a gaze because he is a man, whereas, a woman has a gaze only when she assumes the male gazer role, when she objectifies others by gazing at them like a man. Eva-Maria Jacobsson supports Paul's description of the "female gaze" as "a mere cross-identification with masculinity", yet evidence of women's objectification of men — the discrete existence of a Female Gaze — is in the "boy toy" adverts published in teen magazines, despite Mulvey's contention that The Gaze is property of one gender. Moreover, in power relationships, the gazer can direct his or her gaze to members of his or her gender, for asexual reasons, such as comparing the gazer's body image and clothing to those of the gazed at man or woman.


An explanation of the gaze here (just from wiki).

Women do not create this situation, and it happens no matter what women are wearing. Also many women do dress to attract the male gaze, because they are taught their self worth and value lies in their attractiveness and sexuality. The male gaze reinforces this notion.


----------



## Halien

Syrum said:


> And as a man in a patriarchal world, who has not been judged as harshly or as often as women, it's very easy to say that.
> 
> I believe it's called a position of privilege.
> 
> And again you guys are cool with your women catagorising every single man they meet and deciding if he looks good enough to put his **** inside her, and what it will feel like if they did it? Cool.:smthumbup:
> 
> You know what I don't care what anybody thinks of me either, it's very different not caring what someone thinks of me, because I know I'm a good person, who cares about others etc, and not wanting every man I meet to think about whether or not he wants to f%^k me. I do know some men who have made it obvious what they are thinking in that regard, and gives me the shivers and I think they are creeps.
> 
> I'm sick of living in a society that says that women are sexual objects and SOME men will do as they please, so tough sh!t.


Unfortunately, with the pornification of our society, the lines are becoming blurred. I think your comments now only apply to baseline environments women find themselves in, or certain women. Or maybe for guys who fit outside the female description of good looking. For instance, my son is apparently very good looking. His personality changed recently, and we spent some time in counseling. Turns out, with this senior year of high school being his first year in public school, he is incredibly popular. He went to a religious school before. On his facebook page, he was described by the girls as drop dead gorgeous. The therapist said that there is somewhat of a competition going on for BJs for him. The stats are pretty incredible. Well, very impressive. But I taught him that it was wrong to look at women as a sexual outlet only. So, he wonders why they are the ones doing the pursuing.

I don't think most women think this way, and in fact, I think alot of it results from confusion of the mixed signals being sent from the media. Still, my wife's family, mostly ardent feminists, told her when we were dating that I was nothing more than a 200 pound dildo with big muscles. She married me anyway.


----------



## AFEH

Syrum said:


> This is because women are taught to view themselves through the male gaze.


Unteach yourself?

Bob


----------



## unbelievable

Syrum,

Not to argue, but the feminist theory explanation is hooey. Guys are sexually attracted to women for the same reason male birds are interested in female birds and male dogs like female dogs. We're created that way and the future of our species depends upon those urges. If sexual attraction were completely removed from the equation, few men would spend longer than a few minutes with the typical woman. Left to their own devices, no straight man would set foot in Bed, Bath, and Beyond. Never-the-less, straight men are seen in that store all the time only because they hope to get into the drawers of whatever females dragged them there. 
The "gaze" has nothing to do with a desire to oppress or control. It's just the natural attraction between the sexes, without which, neither would tolerate the other very long.


----------



## AFEH

Halien said:


> Unfortunately, with the pornification of our society, the lines are becoming blurred. I think your comments now only apply to baseline environments women find themselves in, or certain women. Or maybe for guys who fit outside the female description of good looking. For instance, my son is apparently very good looking. His personality changed recently, and we spent some time in counseling. Turns out, with this senior year of high school being his first year in public school, he is incredibly popular. He went to a religious school before. On his facebook page, he was described by the girls as drop dead gorgeous. The therapist said that there is somewhat of a competition going on for BJs for him. The stats are pretty incredible. Well, very impressive. But I taught him that it was wrong to look at women as a sexual outlet only. So, he wonders why they are the ones doing the pursuing.
> 
> I don't think most women think this way, and in fact, I think alot of it results from confusion of the mixed signals being sent from the media. Still, my wife's family, mostly ardent feminists, told her when we were dating that I was nothing more than a 200 pound dildo with big muscles. She married me anyway.


Both my sons are “drop dead gorgeous”. Not a term I’ve applied to them, comes from the women I know.

I know as much as anyone the “inside of them”. They both have one heck of a lot of love and compassion, it’s very profound. My elder son is a leader, protector type with some seriously good mates. I’ve been privileged to spend time with some of them over the past few months and it does me proud to hear so many good things said about him.

But women in the main look at them as “drop dead gorgeous”. A sex object? I don’t know but it sure as heck doesn’t seem to bother them.

For both good looking men and women, it’s what’s on the inside that counts.

Bob


----------



## Conrad

QFT

I cannot imagine giving a rat's ass about passing "fitness tests" if I wasn't attracted to the test giver - much less working like a dog for her and children that aren't my own.

It would be a pretty short discussion. You want to treat me like that? Find some new friends.



unbelievable said:


> Syrum,
> 
> Not to argue, but the feminist theory explanation is hooey. Guys are sexually attracted to women for the same reason male birds are interested in female birds and male dogs like female dogs. We're created that way and the future of our species depends upon those urges. If sexual attraction were completely removed from the equation, few men would spend longer than a few minutes with the typical woman. Left to their own devices, no straight man would set foot in Bed, Bath, and Beyond. Never-the-less, straight men are seen in that store all the time only because they hope to get into the drawers of whatever females dragged them there.
> The "gaze" has nothing to do with a desire to oppress or control. It's just the natural attraction between the sexes, without which, neither would tolerate the other very long.


----------



## Boogsie

I think this whole thing boils down to this:

My wife can look at the menu, she can fantasize about what all the other food tastes like, but she better only order MY food.

This is no different really than fantasizing about sleeping with a celebrity. The only difference is you see the celebrity on TV rather than actually standing in front of you.

Do you have a problem with your husband if he is thinking about hot monkey sex with a celebrity? If not, why? Is it because you are jealous that he might actually TRY with one of the women that walk past him but know a celebrity isn't a possibility and you are safe there?

I also think there is a difference between classifying a woman as "doable" and "no I wouldn't do her" and actually fantasizing about sleeping with her.


----------



## Niceguy13

Hey I am a straight man and like Bed Bath and Beyond where else can I find some pimpin sheets for cheap, or comfie pillows or a towel big enough to actualy wrap around me I ain't fat but I am packing a pony keg.

Whats this about **** sapiens not having instincts I guess all those feralchildren through the years are all flukes. Instincts has nothing to do with choice or free will instincts are what happens when you throw a 9 year old in the deep end of the pool when they don't know how to swim. (yes its cruel and wrong but thats how I learned my body took over even though I had no idea what I was doing and I swam) and instincts are what govern most **** sapiens breeding patterns.

Even in cultures that are free with the body males still pick mates based off of primarily physique and complimentary pheremones. This is due to our insticts telling us they could succesfuly rear a child. Monoghamy is not the normal for a male human like most of our male mammal companions we have an instictual desire to spread our seed to as many willing viable takers as possible. Female humans however look for protection and security like most female mammals. Their instincts drive them not to let just any male impregnate them but a male that has outstanding qualities (humor, intellect and physique seeming to be the top three.)

*You can look over anthropology texts and discover all this for yourself, and for the argument of instinct survivor stories are a great place to start as are case studies of feralchildren.


----------



## stumblealong

Wow! Now this has sparked some controversy! I think i can really identify with both sides of this. Having been deprived in the intimacy portion of my life, i find sex on my mind a lot more than in the past. Like many men on here that say these thoughts about women strike more often when they are deprived, I get that and it is understandable. But even in the situation I'm in, if I'm behind an attractive man at the store, my thoughts are 'he's good lookin' then it's gone. I don't think of what it would be like to have him inside of me, ect. But that is just me.

SimplyAmorous: Hi! I understand what you are saying too, you have a strong relationship and these thoughts are healthy and do not affect how you feel about each other. But like you said, in my situation I find it crappy for him to be gawking, yet I'm overlooked. Kinda makes me feel like he's saying "Been there, done that!"

Doesn't it get boring eventually thinking these thoughts or putting women into certain categories? 

I don't dress provocatively, yet I get plenty of attention from men (just not my own!) Yes, a woman showing a lot of cleavage is going to spark men's imaginations, but obviously these thoughts are there even if a woman is dressed conservatively. 

In my younger years, I couldn't of gave a rat's @ss about who was looking at me or what 'category' i fit into. But I was in a relationship that fulfilled my needs. Nowadays I do find myself feeling flattered when i turn heads, because i'm not getting that attention from my man. But all us women have them days when we just don't feel like primping to look our best. Wearing sweats to the store, no make up, ect. I guess now i will chalk them days up to "well, today i'm in the un-f***able category, didn't turn a head! 

I'm sorry to the men who feel this is a man bashing thread. And it's even in your own clubhouse I was just curious if these men that were talking about this earlier this week was the norm. Now, I think there are several different levels at which guys take these thoughts, these men were being disrespectful to women, saying things like "I want to tear that up" "I want to get at that" These are statements that objectify women, very degrading. On the other end of the spectrum, "Wow, good lookin woman" then be on your way, is different. 

I do not think men are terrible ogres for thinking these thoughts, but realize that the woman in your life has feelings. Everyone has the right to their private thoughts. Women go through a lot in their lives, and early on when we are in our youth we are in the "would do her" category. then we are older, have babies, our bodies change, suddenly we may fall into the "wouldn't do her" category. That is just sad.


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove

seeking sanity said:


> I find the general man hating in this threat disconcerting - by both men and women.
> 
> Men, by saying "I'm a pig, but I good pig" validates the point of view that it is somehow wrong to have sexual thought. Sexual thoughts are a result of testosterone. It's how men are. Putting a value judgement on it, invalidates the male gender.
> 
> Women, the snarky comments that men are somehow deficient/inferior because of their thoughts applies some female standard of superiority. What the hell gives you the right to moralize.


But what men/women fail to remember sometimes is that we BOTH have estrogen and testosterone.

Different levels, albeit - but we both have the same hormones running through our bodies.

I have PCOS, thus my testosterone is off the charts. But I still don't look at every man that passes by and think "geez, wonder what they'd be like to have sex with?"

I think it's always less about hormones and more about how men are raised to objectify women (by their own fathers and then by society and marketing ploys, etc.), and women are raised to value relationships with others.

It's simply a matter of us being "different" - doesn't make one sex superior to the other - but biases are built-in from childhood, either through our own way of thinking or the influences around us.

You think we're man-hating - but in reality - we're being real.

There are men here that are "admitting" that they are shallow, visual creatures who look at women and think about sex - their own admission.

The women here are responding. 

Simple as that. 

The fact that you view it as man-hating is interesting.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Stumbealong - I didnt realize your husband was gawking, I did not read all of the posts, this thread REALLY took off. If that is going on and you feel "overlooked" by him, then I can see why you would wonder if the majority of guys are like this- and want no part of it that type. You don't want to find yourself in this situation again. 

If you find yourself single again , I would think the best course of action is - taking your time & getting to know these other men for who they are -outside of passing fantasies. 

I am sure it is flattering for you, as us women are getting older, to be noticed & looked upon, I see nothing wrong with your dressing to LOOK GOOD, even a little HOT, just don't go too overboard or I think this attracts many undesiables. Dress in what represents YOU, be comfortable & confident in your own skin & cothes and let the men reel you in. 

Just be careful and go very SLOW to getting to know them, not jumping into anything. It's the EMOTIONAL side you need to learn of them, who they are, how selfish they are, what their goals are, thier intentions, what they want from a woman, what they want to give, all of these things are more important than if they are having momentary Rushs of sexual excitement running through their brains. And what of their relationship History, this should never be overlooked, and what type of friends they hang out with. It speaks of someones character. Does he keep his word, is he showing you the attention you crave? 

You want a man with good character.


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove

okeydokie said:


> and there is a great portion of the female gender that like to be appreciated for their looks, and sexual attraction is the basis for that. if it didnt matter, everyone would be huge, sweaty and gross. its my belief that women can be their own worst enemy by creating this stigma, then trying to deny and fight it
> 
> a hot lady wearing a miniskirt and a low cut top in public doesnt expect to gawked at? or flashing the crowd at mardi gras?


Sure - women dressed to be noticed, mostly by other women, but it doesn't hurt me if a man finds me attractive also. 

But what gets irritating is when mens eyes linger and you can tell they are visually undressing you - it's off-putting and can be a little scary - it appears like learing.

I have large breasts - natural - not enhanced and sometimes it's a little unnerving when men talk to me while looking at my chest. Even when I have it covered up. Come on - control yourself.

When women get dressed (me), I want to appear attractive - sure, but I'm not dressing with the thoughts of - gosh, I wonder if any man that sees me is going to undress me with his eyes - geez - I can't wait.

When men get dressed they also want to appear attractive and they usually dress for women, not men. But how many men do you think get dressed with the thought that every women that sees them that finds them attractive is mentally undressing them - doesn't happen.

Men focus too much on sex as being the main focus in their lives. It doesn't allow them to focus on the really important things - establishing relationships. Probably the reson why they don't do well at it, for the most part.

There are a lot of women that do focus on sex (me being one of them), but my main focus is on loving those I have established relationships with. Sex is important to me too - but if something happened and I couldnt' have sex at all - then what would I be left with?

And don't tell me it's primal or a testosterone thing - sick of hearing that one.


----------



## Syrum

> Unteach yourself?
> 
> Bob


I allready have, however it's fairly obvious that most people don't understand it, let alone have the ability to unteach themselves what society tells them is an acceptable norm, and pretty much to be aspired to. I think knowledge is power and I certainly don't blame my ill behaviour towards others on being female.



unbelievable said:


> Syrum,
> 
> Not to argue, but the feminist theory explanation is hooey. Guys are sexually attracted to women for the same reason male birds are interested in female birds and male dogs like female dogs. We're created that way and the future of our species depends upon those urges. If sexual attraction were completely removed from the equation, few men would spend longer than a few minutes with the typical woman. Left to their own devices, no straight man would set foot in Bed, Bath, and Beyond. Never-the-less, straight men are seen in that store all the time only because they hope to get into the drawers of whatever females dragged them there.
> The "gaze" has nothing to do with a desire to oppress or control. It's just the natural attraction between the sexes, without which, neither would tolerate the other very long.


I don't really think you understood what I was saying or what the gaze means.

it is quite obvious that men are taught all their lives that women are and should besexual objects, any one who disagrees is poo pood. I think it's proof enough really.

It's not about being attracted to or not attracted to someone, throughout history we see evidence that the way men think and think they are biologically driven to act is far more societal than anything.

Yes men have testosterone and women have hormones that lead us to be attracted to the opposite sex, those hormones do not put certain ideas into our heads though, they are driven by societal norms and standards and what we deem reasonable for ourselves.

All the examples of men saying their sons are being treated as sex objects, well that's what i mean about it eventually biting you in the @ss. Personally I don't do that and don't know many women who do do it, and some certainly seem to do it out of revenge. then we have a lot of younger women being taught to view men this was, and to dehumanize men the same way women are. I think it's a very bad idea for any one to do to other human beings.


----------



## Syrum

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Sure - women dressed to be noticed, mostly by other women, but it doesn't hurt me if a man finds me attractive also.
> 
> But what gets irritating is when mens eyes linger and you can tell they are visually undressing you - it's off-putting and can be a little scary - it appears like learing.
> 
> I have large breasts - natural - not enhanced and sometimes it's a little unnerving when men talk to me while looking at my chest. Even when I have it covered up. Come on - control yourself.
> 
> When women get dressed (me), I want to appear attractive - sure, but I'm not dressing with the thoughts of - gosh, I wonder if any man that sees me is going to undress me with his eyes - geez - I can't wait.
> 
> When men get dressed they also want to appear attractive and they usually dress for women, not men. But how many men do you think get dressed with the thought that every women that sees them that finds them attractive is mentally undressing them - doesn't happen.
> 
> Men focus too much on sex as being the main focus in their lives. It doesn't allow them to focus on the really important things - establishing relationships. Probably the reson why they don't do well at it, for the most part.
> 
> There are a lot of women that do focus on sex (me being one of them), but my main focus is on loving those I have established relationships with. Sex is important to me too - but if something happened and I couldnt' have sex at all - then what would I be left with?
> 
> And don't tell me it's primal or a testosterone thing - sick of hearing that one.


Great post MWIL

I agree that it widens the gap between people, and does not teach men or women about valuing one another as people first.


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## Niceguy13

Syrum said:


> It's not about being attracted to or not attracted to someone, throughout history we see evidence that the way men think and think they are biologically driven to act is far more societal than anything.
> 
> Yes men have testosterone and women have hormones that lead us to be attracted to the opposite sex, those hormones do not put certain ideas into our heads though, they are driven by societal norms and standards and what we deem reasonable for ourselves.


Quite the contrary evidence points to the fact that since man first made fire he clubbed the biggest breasted widest hipped woman around and drug her to his cave and women put themselfs in said places to be "clubbed" by the smartest, fittest, or charismatic male around.

Current societal norms in the western culture have us for the most part going the opposite route and humanity is resiting it. Though people flock to the likes of Flava of Love or Jersey shore most women and men I know are disgusted by the people on it and watch it solely for entertainment value. On the opposite spectrum you have the metro propigation everywhere and women are leaving these more "sensitive" men by the droves for smarter,more fit, more charismatic men.

I am not saying there aren't black swans. You can and will always find one, anomalies are expected in anything and everything. The fact remains most men are wired by instinct to think on the basest of breeding levels and most women are hard wired into looking for security of long term breeding viability. Alot of the already said reasons factor in as well as such things as women having gestation, after gestation needing to be there to rear said child. A male has none of these issues. A male in one night can impregnate several females a female may sleep with fifty men but only one will be the winner. It is therefor in the females best intrest to pick the male most suitable for a strong offspring just as it is most suitable for a male to pick females that have the best chance of being succesful in pregnancy.

Again all I do is admire the beauty of a woman and many men here are saying they are having sexual thoughts and fantasizing all that is is them recoknizing another suitable "mate." They fantasize because while admiring that woman their body reacted and their mind is reacting to that reaction. I can ell you every time I walk by a woman that would be a suitablemate, and I am more then sure it happens to me a lot more then it happens to the average woman because I am aware that I am wired differntly then the average woman. I am wired like the average man (interestingly enough that is what I am) therefore my insticts follow those of the averarge man. I have been over a fair part of the world and been in many different cultures and I can say from my expierences even in female dominated culutres the dynamics of attraction/appreciation work much the same.


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## Conrad

Niceguy,

Makes perfect sense.

But, it doesn't do a thing for unhappy people looking to pin blame on others.


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## Syrum

Nice Guy

Female dominated cultures? where are these? If you are talking about matriarchal societies? There is very little evidence for true matriarchal society. Matrilineal societies are often mistaken for true matriarchies as the female members often have a lot more freedom and autonomy than their sisters do living under patriarchy. Even matrilineal societies have been strongly on the wane. Many traditional and unexposed cultures were matrilineal, however they usually absorb Western patrilineal influence very quickly after exposure. 

Will discuss more tomorrow. Don't have time for the detailed response needed.

ETA the poor menz, they just can't hep themselves it's biological.

I think we need to be very careful when excusing poor behaviour and blaming it on biology.

As if what you say is true Mr nice guy I am well within my rights to leave my fiance for a richer man if one shows an interest in me. After all it's biology, I just can't stop myself I'm helpless and powerless against it.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

If it is biological then there would be no men that didn't fit the 6, 6, 6 criteria in relationships/married.


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## Syrum

Well I am going to disagree again.
If biology drives us towards certain behaviour and we are powerless against it, then by that reasoning cheating and affairs are OK because people are biologically driven towards men or women that can provide certian things for them. We are people and we have the ability 9you just have to use it) for free thought.

And SA I sometimes think I am the horniest woman on the planet and sex is allways on my mind. I make the choice to fantasize about my fiance. I know at times I have had a higher drive, or at least it seemed that way, and I have been sex crazed:lol: but I point myself in his direction. That is my choice.

Certainly sometimes I don't choose to be ridiculously horny and wanting it all the time, but I can choose what happens in my own mind and where those thoughts take me.
Oh and I'm not making it up, I have a very high drive, am easily aroused. Feel free to ask my fiance who sometimes claims i wear him out. 

Using biology for poor behaviour is a bad excuse to me.


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## Conrad

Sounds like we're now prosecuting thought crimes.

Strange thread.


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## AbsolutelyFree

Hello.
I'm a single man, age 25.

I didn't read all six pages of the thread, but, in response to the original post...I'd have to say it's true! Although it's more of a 'sizing her up' thing than thinking about doing actual activities with her.

You have to remember that it's just the way that men feel attraction. There's no choice in the matter, it's just how we are.


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## Therealbrighteyes

Conrad said:


> Sounds like we're now prosecuting thought crimes.
> 
> Strange thread.


I hear what you are saying Conrad. For me, it is a little disconcerting to know that most men do this and it is just the way things are. Knowing my husband does it just makes me feel


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## Jellybeans

Ok so just to be clear, when men stare at women, they aren't actually imagining the act of boffing them, it's more of, "She is attractive" thought?


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## Syrum

Conrad said:


> Sounds like we're now prosecuting thought crimes.
> 
> Strange thread.


Well no one can tell you what to think clearly, and the question was about thoughts, but you know it's not biology, and many men saying yes they do think about sex with every woman they come across and size them up is just a symptom of a society that does not value women for who they are.

It's not about prosecuting thoughts, if I have thoughts about something that effects other people and the way I interact with them, or could harm my intimate relatonship with my SO and I shared those thoughts, i would expect people to say so. I would not just say "it's biology".

I think we can all do with a little self reflection on how we view others and how this effects the way we treat them, or how it effects those closest to us.

It effects me because I am a woman who has been on the receiving end of some so called "biological" actions. And it sucks. These actions came about because of how those men were taught they could treat women and because of their thought processes, helped shaped by society.


----------



## Niceguy13

I never once said you were in your rights to. I said that you are drawn biologicaly to men that offer you a sense of security. Historicaly that has been intelligence, fitness, charisma, and wealth. I am saying you chose your current husband because he fits your idea of security. I don't know you well enough to know what your idea of security is. For you it may have nothing to do with wealth.He may a highly intelligent individual or he may be tremoundously fit or able to persuade people easily of any of those said conditions.

There is also a reason for little evidence of a "true" matriarchal society. Lets just say I do wish women "ruled" the world. Would be a lot less stupid wars and a lot more equality across the board. I am aware there have been female tyrants but they are the black swan. Tyranny seems to be very male. When a man has power he doesn't share it when a woman has power she does share it. To use the animal kingdom as an example many people think male lions are the king of the jungle when in reality a male lions job in a pride is 1) to chase off other males 2) to babysit the kids and teach them while the females hunt. After the female makes her kill for her and her cubs then the male goes on the hunt for himself. It is the Lioness that is in power in the relationship but instead of hoarding it over the lion she shares it with him. So you will probaly never see a matriartichal society in the truest sense of the word. You all are to hard wired for compassion to your children some of which will be male. (again I realize their are whacko moms that kill there kids but they are just that whackos)

You look at the agricultral tribes around the world that are Matrilineal you will notice in each one that the women are the heads that they decided to share their power with the males and that they still pick their mates or pick them for their daughters for the same reasons as western "corrupted" culture. Which was the point I was making.

The only way to truley have one would be to remove all males from the equation like said mythical amazons the only children they keep are the daughters. Which you can see mirrored again in the animal kingdom with for example Lions male cubs upon reaching a certain age will be ejected from the pride (assuming they do not challenge their sire) whilst the female cubs upon maturing will be allowed to stay in the pride. You even see this in patriartichal animals like wolves where the alpha will eject from the pact any male he sees as a rival. Can you really say it is not true even amongst us "superior" humans that the males eject any males they see as a rival from their social group. The only true matriartichal societies I have ever seen have been found in the hive mind insects such as Bees and ants which oddly enough also happen to be perfect communisms. And the queen is not a tyrant in these instances every female is bred for a specific exact purpose and does it's job efficently effectivle and without complaint males only being created for breeding season and having a very reduced lifecycle.


----------



## Syrum

So Mr nice guy are we animals or are we capable of free thought?

Is that a yes to the cheating or a no? 

We all make choices and we can all change our thinking. Or we can justify it and carry on.


----------



## Boogsie

Jellybeans said:


> Ok so just to be clear, when men stare at women, they aren't actually imagining the act of boffing them, it's more of, "She is attractive" thought?


Almost. It is more of an instant:

"I'd do her."
"I wouldn't do her."
"I'd do her."
"I'd do her."
"HOLY $%!+ LOOK AT THE SIZE OF THOSE BOOBS!"
"Wouldn't do her."

If you want to know pretty much how it goes find Season 3 Episode 9 of Family Guy and watch where the baby Stewie does his little "I'd do her. Wouldn't do her. Everybody's done her. Lose the pigtails and we'll talk."

It is more like that.


----------



## Conrad

>>These actions came about because of how those men were taught they could treat women and because of their thought processes, helped shaped by society.<<

Syrum,

I believe people are responsible for their own actions.

Save me from those who would "re-make society" to influence the behavior of boorish people.

Quite an endeavor.


----------



## Conrad

Syrum said:


> So Mr nice guy are we animals or are we capable of free thought?
> 
> Is that a yes to the cheating or a no?
> 
> We all make choices and we can all change our thinking. Or we can justify it and carry on.


Isn't actual behavior a bit more important than purifying thoughts?


----------



## okeydokie

is a womans need to be emotionally fullfilled, her need to feel secure or her need to verbalize her feelings biological?


----------



## stumblealong

SimplyAmorous said:


> Stumbealong - I didnt realize your husband was gawking, I did not read all of the posts, this thread REALLY took off. If that is going on and you feel "overlooked" by him, then I can see why you would wonder if the majority of guys are like this- and want no part of it that type. You don't want to find yourself in this situation again.
> 
> If you find yourself single again , I would think the best course of action is - taking your time & getting to know these other men for who they are -outside of passing fantasies.
> 
> I am sure it is flattering for you, as us women are getting older, to be noticed & looked upon, I see nothing wrong with your dressing to LOOK GOOD, even a little HOT, just don't go too overboard or I think this attracts many undesiables. Dress in what represents YOU, be comfortable & confident in your own skin & cothes and let the men reel you in.
> 
> Just be careful and go very SLOW to getting to know them, not jumping into anything. It's the EMOTIONAL side you need to learn of them, who they are, how selfish they are, what their goals are, thier intentions, what they want from a woman, what they want to give, all of these things are more important than if they are having momentary Rushs of sexual excitement running through their brains. And what of their relationship History, this should never be overlooked, and what type of friends they hang out with. It speaks of someones character. Does he keep his word, is he showing you the attention you crave?
> 
> You want a man with good character.


Hey SA I wish I could find that 'peak' you have described yourself having. Undress a stranger with my eyes Maybe it will help me feel better! Maybe during the evolution of our species, in the future there will be a happy medium for everyone. Women will get more lustful, random thoughts about men, and men will taper theirs down to where this isn't a controversy. 

I tell ya, one warm day last week, i had on shorts and a kinda tight fitting shirt on. His buds were over, and i'm working in the yard. He got very fidgety over his friends looking at me. I always wondered why it bothered him so much when he sees men looking at me. WELL NOW I KNOW! He knows what those men are thinking about when they are looking at me, because he has those same thoughts about women HE sees!

I think what it comes down to is the level of love you feel your partner gives you. If i felt he truly loved me, gave me the attention i needed, i don't think this would be much of an issue. If he respected me more, didn't stare at every chick's @ss, I wouldn't be upset about those random/fleeting thoughts he may be having about those women. I guess i feel he's not giving me those thoughts, he has no right to think of other women that way! 

I do want to find a man that has a good all around character, that makes me feel loved. But, like I said the dating scene scares the hell outta me! 

To MWIL: I hate it when men talk to my boobs too!


----------



## Conrad

okeydokie said:


> is a womans need to be emotionally fullfilled, her need to feel secure or her need to verbalize her feelings biological?


I think it is.

Yet, no one is considering passing a law against fitness testing.


----------



## stumblealong

Conrad said:


> Niceguy,
> 
> Makes perfect sense.
> 
> But, it doesn't do a thing for unhappy people looking to pin blame on others.


I'm not looking to blame anyone. Just was privy to a couple of conversations this week, wanted to know if it was true! I'm most likely going to be a single gal in the future, just wanted to get some incite on the male perspective. See what I may be in for!


----------



## Catherine602

I have been a woman all my life and I have never seen woman persue and offer herself to men to be used for sex to the degree that men on this forum claim. Where are these irresistible men? I have seen a few men in my life so far that are very attractive sexually. 

They have unusually good looks and a male body that is a work of testosterone art. But how many men fit that form, maybe less than 1% and they are usually about 25 yrs old. Yet it seems as if 50% of men posting on this forum have women chasing them down and offering them free sex just because they look so good. 

I must be really dense, I work in a large gossipy place with hundreds of men and woman but it has not come to my attention. Good looks run in my family -.my father, brother, cousins. I have to ask my brother. I will have to be more observant. 

Sounds like a porn fantasy to me. Are there any women who have actually seen this happen. 

Wow, wish more men posted pictures, what a treat that would be.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Jellybeans

Boogsie said:


> Almost. It is more of an instant:
> 
> "I'd do her."
> "I wouldn't do her."
> "I'd do her."
> "I'd do her."
> "HOLY $%!+ LOOK AT THE SIZE OF THOSE BOOBS!"
> "Wouldn't do her."
> 
> If you want to know pretty much how it goes find Season 3 Episode 9 of Family Guy and watch where the baby Stewie does his little "I'd do her. Wouldn't do her. Everybody's done her. Lose the pigtails and we'll talk."
> 
> It is more like that.


Oh wow. So ti's like saying you will or won't have sex with her? Amazing. And gross. A little bit. That that is the only thought happening. :rofl:


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

stumblealong said:


> Hey SA I wish I could find that 'peak' you have described yourself having. Undress a stranger with my eyes Maybe it will help me feel better!


Let's all agree to start undressing random dudes and putting them in to piles. Okey Dokie, you up for sending a pic?


----------



## Niceguy13

We are animals yes we are also animals with higher though process. Once again I ask why are you with the man you chose? Did I say anything that was untrue? How many women are going to stand up and say I don't love my husband because he makes me feel safe and secure. You are a woman your base instict is satisfied. How about cheating women any of you want to talk about how you no longer saw your husband as a dominating male you saw him as weak as something that couldn't keep you safe and secure? You can look just at these the going through divorce and seperation pages or the coping with infidelity pages most cases of the woman leaving were because she no longer felt safe and secure with her husband where as most men are leaving because their wife was with another male or they are weak and acting on their base instict.

We have the ability to fight instict and I never argued that but to deny that the reaction is based off instict is ludicrous. I never said you had to follow that instict not once will you find me saying it commanded you. I said it was an instict its there. Every male is hardwired at least a little for it.Obviously this very thread has pointed out that individualy we process it differently. Most of us never act upon said instict though. I am perfectly content with my wife (ok not entirley true but that is a different topic) I would never act upon my instict of seeding as many women as possible. I have the choice of ignoring the instict, but just because I ignore it does not mean it doesn't exsist.

To word it another way you seem like a highly biblical person. As a Christian you are suppose to deny the temptations of Satan, you have the choice to deny his temptations, but that does not mean he isn't going to tempt you.

@Jelly yes i think it sums up to that there is something about women for each man its different that makes them look that second or two longer. Depending on the man their thought process might be slightly different some actualy visualize bedding the woman some just think she's attractive and move along and some just leer and drool having no higher thought process to be stimulated.


----------



## Conrad

stumblealong said:


> I'm not looking to blame anyone. Just was privy to a couple of conversations this week, wanted to know if it was true! I'm most likely going to be a single gal in the future, just wanted to get some incite on the male perspective. See what I may be in for!


Stumble,

I didn't think you were.

Here's the deal. I actually believe in the Almighty.

I think men and women were created in complementary fashion. Yet, the more we try to intellectualize on the primal mysteries associated with sexual attraction, the farther away we get from the truth.

Here's the short skinny.

If men weren't seriously interested in having sex with women, there would be no children. God made it so we simply feel we cannot live without it.

And, when you have a superb partner - as I do - you can find a bit of heaven nearly every single day.

Of course, once you find something you desire that strongly, psychology dictates you try to maximize it - and keep it from others. My comments on this subject are very direct.

In the thread on open marriage. "Me watching another man ignite my wife's passion? I don't know what planet I'd have to be on to tune into that channel".

That goes for her doing someone else with her mouth or anything similar. This is the most personal, primal, emotional dynamite you can play around with.

Yet - HOW do we get to the point where we attract the "one" we want. And, how in the world do we keep that ONE?

2 TOTALLY different things. But, not so different.

We STILL must be the man she fell in love with. But, (MEM's written a novella on this) we sometimes have to butt heads with her to keep her from steamrolling us into something/someone else.

But - here's the key - the instincts that Niceguy explained are STILL THERE. Of course, we should operate with self-discipline over those instincts.

In short, healthy heterosexual guys will look. I operate with the 5 second rule.

But, we can no less stop noticing attractive women than those attractive women can prevent themselves from fitness testing us.

Both appear to be a biological imperative.

The idea of re-making "society" to send a different message?

Good luck.

Once the wars all settle down and the caliphate gets established, the burkas go on and we settle everything - right?

That bit of sick humor aside, humanity has been wrestling with this from the beginning of time. I have little faith that contemporary feminism has the long-lost solution.


----------



## sisters359

First, please, let's not go down the "women wanted a protector/provider path" again, since there is no evidence to suggest that. 

Let's remember that a lot of early societies were matriLINEAL, with families organized around the women's household, brothers/uncles mentoring young boys/men, serial monogamy, etc., etc. As more than one African noted to Muslim scholars, you *know* the child coming out of your sister shares your blood; you can't be sure about the child born to your wife/sexual partner.

There is also evidence to suggest women prefer relatives for living partners (people with whom they share more genetic background), while prefering those who are genetically diverse as sexual partners. IE, matrilineal--live with your brothers (when they aren't shacking up with their latest hunny), mate with your. . .current mate. Change mates every year or two; genetic diversity in YOUR offspring will improve the chances of your genetic material getting passed on. 

Having said that, I think it is quite normal for men to have a momentary "yes/no" thought on seeing/meeting a woman. I think, as a woman, I'm more likely to have the "yes/no" thought ONLY when I've had my "possible mate alert" triggered. It is not simply a visual thing--sound and smell may have much to do with it. I can look at a guy and think "he's gorgeous" without it being also a sexual thought. I just think that female sexual attraction involves more senses. 

Yet the idea that men are naturally "pigs" is abhorrent to me, because so many are more than simply their sex drive. I think that is why it is frustrating when people try to claim, "it's the way we are built" to excuse bad or inappropriate behavior. Neither men nor women are simply ONE characteristic, biologically or socially. 

Having a sexual reaction to a woman is no big deal--it's what a guy does with that. Same for women. Our brains are constantly making distinctions and categorizing base on sensory input. To think that the information processing stops at "yes/no" is ignoring the complexity of the human brain. 

Of course, the Darwin Awards suggest that some people have faulty information processing (usually an inadequate executive motor processing system). We aren't talking about those folks!


----------



## Mrs.G

Wrench said:


> I'd say yes, most of the time. It's a guy thing, it's why we like porn and strippers more than women do. We think about sex a lot when we're younger but it fades a bit with age.
> 
> Don't read too much into it, it's not like we're planning on dating or flirting with them. Just humping crosses our dirty minds


When it comes to sex, I approach it in a much more masculine way than society is comfortable with. I love porn and I love to admire gorgeous men. I take all that energy and share it with my husband. I laugh about my celebrity crushes with Mr.G and if he is getting tired of it, he tells me to stop and we go enjoy each other. 
Men only think of sex with a woman if they find her attractive.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Boogsie

Jellybeans said:


> Oh wow. So ti's like saying you will or won't have sex with her? Amazing. And gross. A little bit. That that is the only thought happening. :rofl:


Yes, now you have it. The caveat is that is it ONLY a thought. As a married male it is not something I would act on if given the opportunity. It is just something that happens in my head. I can't shut it down.

Let me give you another example. I work with a woman who is exceptionally well endowed. Add to that the fact that she appears to have issues with the temperature in our office and you have something that no man in the building can take his eyes off of.

She has enormous breasts and her nipples will press through 3 layers of clothing to be easily visible. This is a situation where I actually feel bad for looking, but )(*$#)(*)(#*)*(!# it can't really be helped and it is almost INSTINCTIVE to look before dislocating your neck to look away.


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## Niceguy13

SimplyAmorous said:


> I will say I am VERY thankful my husband cared enough to understand Me during that time -instead of judging me & taking these things too personal, that would have only caused me shame and more pain. If he was some moralist, I don't think I could have soared through this as nicely as we have, I thank God for men like him.


Wish my wife would of caught the testosterone mid life crisis instead of the wish I was single mid life crisis. I would gladly support her through that even if I was worn out 24/7 and I had to walk around for a year gingerly. Then again my love language is physical touch. Glad you can laugh about it now though


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## Jellybeans

Boogsie said:


> She has enormous breasts and her nipples will press through 3 layers of clothing to be easily visible. This is a situation where I actually feel bad for looking, but )(*$#)(*)(#*)*(!# it can't really be helped and it is almost INSTINCTIVE to look before dislocating your neck to look away.


LOL at dislocating your neck!

Well, women on the board... I know it's not just me , but I have checked out a dude's , erm, package before and thought one caught me staring. Thought I think women are better are playing these things off than men. Hee hee.



Niceguy13 said:


> Depending on the man their thought process might be slightly different some actualy visualize bedding the woman


Wow. So they imagine the entire act sometimes? Is it like a flash? How detailed is this fantasy? I wonder how many people have had mental/mind/yes/no sex w/ me in their head. Bananas!



Conrad said:


> And, when you have a superb partner - as I do - you can find a bit of heaven nearly every single day.


Awww


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## okeydokie

its a fantasy, just like any other fantasy. it sounds like some responses assume it would be acted on or that it is somehow real. not in my case, never. but if i was in the dating scene, i might actually romantically pursue a woman based on physical attraction, right?


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## SimplyAmorous

stumblealong said:


> I think what it comes down to is the level of love you feel your partner gives you. If i felt he truly loved me, gave me the attention i needed, i don't think this would be much of an issue. If he respected me more, didn't stare at every chick's @ss, I wouldn't be upset about those random/fleeting thoughts he may be having about those women.


To this I say "AMEN". This is how It works , at least in MY marraige it does. I hope you wll find this, nothing can compare, I am not at all bothered by my husband looking. Other women think I am crazy out of my mind, but it is because of the way he TREATS me, the way he has ALWAYS treated me. I could not feel any more secure & the fact he wants to look, for me , shows his hormones are not getting too low, I worry about his Test. 

Not many wives have this issue, so my situation is unique! The Encron felt he may need Treatment someday. This frightened me, I worried for months over it, almost got depressed, worrying about the future. Some studies say even looking at porn can raise your Test, so hey, sounds good to Me! We enjoy it together.  (I can feel Syrums response coming)


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## Niceguy13

sisters359 said:


> First, please, let's not go down the "women wanted a protector/provider path" again, since there is no evidence to suggest that.
> 
> Let's remember that a lot of early societies were matriLINEAL, with families organized around the women's household, brothers/uncles mentoring young boys/men, serial monogamy, etc., etc. As more than one African noted to Muslim scholars, you *know* the child coming out of your sister shares your blood; you can't be sure about the child born to your wife/sexual partner.
> 
> There is also evidence to suggest women prefer relatives for living partners (people with whom they share more genetic background), while prefering those who are genetically diverse as sexual partners. IE, matrilineal--live with your brothers (when they aren't shacking up with their latest hunny), mate with your. . .current mate. Change mates every year or two; genetic diversity in YOUR offspring will improve the chances of your genetic material getting passed on.


Wasn't nessicarly arguing protector provider path I was arguing saftey and security. In the outline you layed out the women have both in ample amounts and in a more reassuring manner as it is the brothers, uncles and grandfathers that are offering that security and saftey and to an even greater extent the other women in the house. It is still there though and allows the female to diversify the genetic line easier and I will not argue that. It also removes a core element from the selection of a mate to where you are judging upon the genetic material he can offer to your line. Are you going to pick the town drunk or that guy who is always coming up with new and more efficent ways of doing something. The guy that can't lift a trash bag or the guy that runs marathons.

Men defnitley work off smell as well. I can smell a "dirty" girl as soon as she walks in the room.And I am not talking cycle she can be drop dead gorgeous but something about her scent will make we want to rip her throat out (not saying I ever would do that to a woman instead I avoid them like the plague.)My wife has commented on it because my neck and arm hairs will actualy stand on end and I will start rubbing my nose or snorting. Anything with to much scent does this to me as well male or female. Nothing worse then the smell of a "dirty" woman.

*dirty in quotes as I have never bedded one or taken the time to get to know one I have no clue if they actually have STD's or anything of the sort.


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## Jellybeans

I don't understand the "dirty" smell thing. Please explain.

Like, you can tell if she is a skank??? Or "dirty" good? I am so lost here. LOL.


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## Niceguy13

Jellybeans said:


> Wow. So they imagine the entire act sometimes? Is it like a flash? How detailed is this fantasy? I wonder how many people have had mental/mind/yes/no sex w/ me in their head. Bananas!


Having been in the Marines for four years seen the whole wide range. I knew guys that not only would do the fantasy thing in their heads their hands would well go in their pockets. Wouldn't jerk off or anything but that body language says alot...needless to say most women stayed away from those ones and they tended not to be choice A meat in other factors as well.

Most of my fellow Marines were mild fantasies of the sort Wow imagine what she could do with those legs without specifics. About ten percent of us were the just recoknize the fact type and move along with no actual fantasies involved. Five percent were detailed fantasies and yes they always shared them another five percent were the brain dead droolers and 1 percent were the above mentioned creeps that could only get some when paid for and then not even at the "good" places but the old beat down places.


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## Jellybeans

^ I love that you've broken it down in to mathematical percentages. LOL. "1% are creeps."


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## Niceguy13

Jellybeans said:


> I don't understand the "dirty" smell thing. Please explain.
> 
> Like, you can tell if she is a skank??? Or "dirty" good? I am so lost here. LOL.


Skank dirty.They set me on edge everytime. They can be visualy stunning but if they "smell" wrong I just go on edge and won't let them near me. I can't describe the smell I know it when I smell it. But I lack the words to describe I have never found another smell like it. Whereas I think my wife smells wonderful all the time. She can go work out hard at the gym come home reeking of sweat but even that smell is pleasing to me on some level.

Wait I know how to describe it now. I remeber when me and my wife first got together she had a roommate. We were out all week and her roommate got a boyfriend and they screwed all week in the room didn't open up any windows didn't shower nothing but lying in bed in their own sex filth for a week, thats what I smell. It smells like dirty sex and not dirty as in kinky.


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## Wrench

Niceguy13 said:


> Having been in the Marines for four years seen the whole wide range. I knew guys that not only would do the fantasy thing in their heads their hands would well go in their pockets. Wouldn't jerk off or anything but that body language says alot...needless to say most women stayed away from those ones and they tended not to be choice A meat in other factors as well.
> 
> Most of my fellow Marines were mild fantasies of the sort Wow imagine what she could do with those legs without specifics. About ten percent of us were the just recoknize the fact type and move along with no actual fantasies involved. Five percent were detailed fantasies and yes they always shared them another five percent were the brain dead droolers and 1 percent were the above mentioned creeps that could only get some when paid for and then not even at the "good" places but the old beat down places.


You totally described most groups of guys I've ever hung out with.

And this men's clubhouse sucks, who let all the women in

If any guy got as deep as this thread in a real clubhouse he'd be ribbed so bad. I can't even say most of the things he'd be called :rofl:


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## AFEH

Conrad said:


> Sounds like we're now prosecuting thought crimes.
> 
> Strange thread.


Indeed.

Bob


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## Niceguy13

Jellybeans said:


> ^ I love that you've broken it down in to mathematical percentages. LOL. "1% are creeps."


Haha one day I will have to give you my alternate to time being the fourth dimension. Its no,t time, space, and continuum or a seprate set of triple dimensions that our three dimensions reside in. I can visualize it but am still working on the mathematical proof.

Heinlenn gives a good example of it in Number of the Beast but his explanation does not carry with it a proof just a visualization of the concept. Einstein also touched on it with the bending of space.

No I am not a rocket scientist or anything I can just never turn my brain off so when I get bored my brain starts doing math equations and figuring theoroms out and stuff (most already discovered some useless or not efficent.) No I am not going to go to college grunt work for me to keep me busy and turn my brain off.


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## AFEH

Wrench said:


> And this men's clubhouse sucks, who let all the women in


Should spank their bums and send them on their way.


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## Niceguy13

AFEH said:


> Should spank their bums and send them on their way.


I think its payback because we keep barging into theirs:rofl:


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## Therealbrighteyes

okeydokie said:


> its a fantasy, just like any other fantasy. it sounds like some responses assume it would be acted on or that it is somehow real. not in my case, never. but if i was in the dating scene, i might actually romantically pursue a woman based on physical attraction, right?


I don't think my husband would ever act on it, so that isn't my specific issue. My reason for not liking this behavior is that to me, in doing so, he is in essence telling me that I am not enough. 

I wonder how many of the men here would feel if the shoe was on the other foot? Women visually undressing men and imagining themselves having sex with these guys. Sizing them up and comparing. I bet they wouldn't like it one bit.


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## MarriedWifeInLove

Niceguy13 said:


> I never once said you were in your rights to. I said that you are drawn biologicaly to men that offer you a sense of security. Historicaly that has been intelligence, fitness, charisma, and wealth. I am saying you chose your current husband because he fits your idea of security. I don't know you well enough to know what your idea of security is. For you it may have nothing to do with wealth.He may a highly intelligent individual or he may be tremoundously fit or able to persuade people easily of any of those said conditions.
> 
> There is also a reason for little evidence of a "true" matriarchal society. Lets just say I do wish women "ruled" the world. Would be a lot less stupid wars and a lot more equality across the board. I am aware there have been female tyrants but they are the black swan. Tyranny seems to be very male. When a man has power he doesn't share it when a woman has power she does share it. To use the animal kingdom as an example many people think male lions are the king of the jungle when in reality a male lions job in a pride is 1) to chase off other males 2) to babysit the kids and teach them while the females hunt. After the female makes her kill for her and her cubs then the male goes on the hunt for himself. It is the Lioness that is in power in the relationship but instead of hoarding it over the lion she shares it with him. So you will probaly never see a matriartichal society in the truest sense of the word. You all are to hard wired for compassion to your children some of which will be male. (again I realize their are whacko moms that kill there kids but they are just that whackos)
> 
> You look at the agricultral tribes around the world that are Matrilineal you will notice in each one that the women are the heads that they decided to share their power with the males and that they still pick their mates or pick them for their daughters for the same reasons as western "corrupted" culture. Which was the point I was making.
> 
> The only way to truley have one would be to remove all males from the equation like said mythical amazons the only children they keep are the daughters. Which you can see mirrored again in the animal kingdom with for example Lions male cubs upon reaching a certain age will be ejected from the pride (assuming they do not challenge their sire) whilst the female cubs upon maturing will be allowed to stay in the pride. You even see this in patriartichal animals like wolves where the alpha will eject from the pact any male he sees as a rival. Can you really say it is not true even amongst us "superior" humans that the males eject any males they see as a rival from their social group. The only true matriartichal societies I have ever seen have been found in the hive mind insects such as Bees and ants which oddly enough also happen to be perfect communisms. And the queen is not a tyrant in these instances every female is bred for a specific exact purpose and does it's job efficently effectivle and without complaint males only being created for breeding season and having a very reduced lifecycle.


Just like not all men do something, neither do all women.

I was not drawn to my husband for a sense of security. If you're talking financial, I outearned him then and still do now. I've always been the major breadwinner.

I was drawn to him by how I felt when I was with him - that initial chemistry drew me to him and it still keeps me where I am today, even with all the issues.

So we're not all cut from the same cloth.


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## Therealbrighteyes

AFEH said:


> Should spank their bums and send them on their way.


You offering? :lol:


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## Niceguy13

Brennan said:


> I don't think my husband would ever act on it, so that isn't my specific issue. My reason for not liking this behavior is that to me, in doing so, he is in essence telling me that I am not enough.
> 
> I wonder how many of the men here would feel if the shoe was on the other foot? Women visually undressing men and imagining themselves having sex with these guys. Sizing them up and comparing. I bet they wouldn't like it one bit.


Don't women do that in other ways already though. Wellmy husband brings me lunch everyday. Oh yeah well my husband sends me roses once a month.I got you both beat my Husband for the past five years on mothers day he wakes me up gives me breakfast with a card the card containts tickets for myself my mom and my best girlfriend to go to the spa and he looks after the kids all day.

You are in essence doing the equivalent. Been stuck in a lot of "hen" houses so I know it happens alot more then you are going to admit, but you are comparing each others mates right there to prove has the better oneand occasionaly one of you women here what husband x does and thinks your husband needs to start doing that


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## Boogsie

Brennan said:


> I don't think my husband would ever act on it, so that isn't my specific issue. My reason for not liking this behavior is that to me, in doing so, he is in essence telling me that I am not enough.
> 
> I wonder how many of the men here would feel if the shoe was on the other foot? Women visually undressing men and imagining themselves having sex with these guys. Sizing them up and comparing. I bet they wouldn't like it one bit.


I think the rub in all of this is that I don't and wouldn't care. When my wife says someone is good looking, I assume she's already done that to some extent. It doesn't bother me at all.

Like I said, she can look at the menu and dream about all the different foods all she wants as long as she only orders MY food.


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## Niceguy13

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Just like not all men do something, neither do all women.
> 
> I was not drawn to my husband for a sense of security. If you're talking financial, I outearned him then and still do now. I've always been the major breadwinner.
> 
> I was drawn to him by how I felt when I was with him - that initial chemistry drew me to him and it still keeps me where I am today, even with all the issues.
> 
> So we're not all cut from the same cloth.


Care to go in depth somewhat on the initial chemistry. Amatuer curiosity here. What about him was different then the other guys knocking on your proverbial door? Initial chemistry can be anything from you thought his abs were so sexy to he was always there for me emotionaly. That is a rather vague statement is all I am saying


----------



## Boogsie

Niceguy13 said:


> Don't women do that in other ways already though. Wellmy husband brings me lunch everyday. Oh yeah well my husband sends me roses once a month.I got you both beat my Husband for the past five years on mothers day he wakes me up gives me breakfast with a card the card containts tickets for myself my mom and my best girlfriend to go to the spa and he looks after the kids all day.


This reminds me of a joke from my youth.

Three ladys were sitting around talking about their husbands and the first lady says, "My husband has a beautiful dragon tatoo on his arm."

The second lady says, "Oh yeah? My husband has TWO dragon tatoos on his arm!"

The third lady says, "That's nice. My husband has one draggin on the ground!"


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## Therealbrighteyes

Niceguy13 said:


> Don't women do that in other ways already though. Wellmy husband brings me lunch everyday. Oh yeah well my husband sends me roses once a month.I got you both beat my Husband for the past five years on mothers day he wakes me up gives me breakfast with a card the card containts tickets for myself my mom and my best girlfriend to go to the spa and he looks after the kids all day.
> 
> You are in essence doing the equivalent. Been stuck in a lot of "hen" houses so I know it happens alot more then you are going to admit, but you are comparing each others mates right there to prove has the better oneand occasionaly one of you women here what husband x does and thinks your husband needs to start doing that


That's an odd comparison. I would never think flowers sent to a friend by her mate is somehow "one upping" in a sense. It would never cross my mind. This example is peculiar though since it sounds like it is about comparing. So is that what guys do? She's hot, wish the wife looked like that? That sort of thing?
BTW...kudos for your service to our country. All this talk about hot looking people makes me long for Camp Pendleton again.


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## Conrad

Brennan said:


> That's an odd comparison. I would never think flowers sent to a friend by her mate is somehow "one upping" in a sense. It would never cross my mind. This example is peculiar though since it sounds like it is about comparing. So is that what guys do? She's hot, wish the wife looked like that? That sort of thing?
> BTW...kudos for your service to our country. All this talk about hot looking people makes me long for Camp Pendleton again.


Brennan,

You have no idea how often I hear (from friends) how attractive and smoking hot my wife is.

They tell me this with awe in their voices.


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## stumblealong

Brennan said:


> I don't think my husband would ever act on it, so that isn't my specific issue. My reason for not liking this behavior is that to me, in doing so, he is in essence telling me that I am not enough.
> 
> I wonder how many of the men here would feel if the shoe was on the other foot? Women visually undressing men and imagining themselves having sex with these guys. Sizing them up and comparing. I bet they wouldn't like it one bit.


I know mine would go crazy if he thought i was thinking about having sex with another man. Yet, i see him stare, and know he's thinking about sex with another woman, and i'm supposed to just chalk it up as his instinct to do so....hmmmm. No, i do not think he is going to act on it either, but it still hurts my feelings anyways. Just as you said, make us feel like we are not enough for them.


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## AFEH

Brennan said:


> You offering? :lol:


Geesh Brennan I've had to go and censor myself.


----------



## unbelievable

A woman may be a brilliant brain surgeon or an accomplished concert pianist. We are visual creatures, however, and from across the parking lot, we see boobs, butt, and legs. We didn't ask to be this way, it isn't the product of some sinister Western European plan to dominate women. Men have been visual creatures since life began. Naturally, the female of the species are sex objects in the minds of the males of the species just as a nut is a food object for a squirrel. However God (or Nature, if you prefer) arranged things, it has worked quite well to keep the world populated and to keep male and female humans living together for millions of years. Why would someone be conceited enough in the 1960s to imagine they somehow had a better plan? 
Fixating on a strange woman's body is unproductive at best and more than a little creepy, but all straight guys do notice women and for a nanosecond, they mentally stick all women into one of two piles. It's called natural selection. Categorizing is nothing but the "selection" part. Doesn't mean they are perverted or that they wish to dominate women. Doesn't mean they are going to cheat on their wives or rape some strange woman. It just means they are functioning properly according to the laws of nature. If we wake up without our "dog" gene, women will have to immediately evolve in such a way as to produce lots of beer or horsepower or our human race will be doomed.


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## Niceguy13

Brennan said:


> That's an odd comparison. I would never think flowers sent to a friend by her mate is somehow "one upping" in a sense. It would never cross my mind. This example is peculiar though since it sounds like it is about comparing. So is that what guys do? She's hot, wish the wife looked like that? That sort of thing?
> BTW...kudos for your service to our country. All this talk about hot looking people makes me long for Camp Pendleton again.


Don't thank me while everything was going down I was busy falling in love. I have a major guilt complex over it all. Instead thank every single person you seeing wearing a VFW pin or a young man with a high fade and a scarred face or if youever get the chance the family of my brothers who never made it home they deserve the thanks.

I have never been around a group of guys that compared their wifes or girlfriends in that sense. Most men I have known or rather associated with kept details about their SO to themselfs. The roses were just what was important to fictional wife B she though it was a bigger thing then lunch everyday. Men do compare in their heads alot though.

It was more just a comparison on the woman's needs(sense of security whatever type that may be) compared to a man's. And topoint out that women do compare their attraction triggers and judge and rate them. They aren't known for undressing men with their eyes but they will break down the good men from the bad men shotgun style and compare with each other the things that attracted them to their spouse or if the relationship is going badly the things that repulse them about their spouse. It really is the female equivalent of men window shopping.


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove

Niceguy13 said:


> Care to go in depth somewhat on the initial chemistry. Amatuer curiosity here. What about him was different then the other guys knocking on your proverbial door? Initial chemistry can be anything from you thought his abs were so sexy to he was always there for me emotionaly. That is a rather vague statement is all I am saying


The #1 thing that attracted me was his face. He was and still is a very good looking man. When I see a man - I look at his face first, hands second.

So intially, I though - damn - he's fine.

Then as we were dating I was attracted to how he listened to me (he's quiet, I'm a talky). 

Then I started feeling safe around him - probably because of his size - he's 6'5".

Then, the first time we had sex - that sealed it! He rocked my world sexually and still does exactly the same thing to this day - probably one of the reasons I miss it so much. I've never, ever had any other man rock my world in bed like he does.

So I guess the phermones were working overtime on us both. He thought I rocked his world at one time too - but that's changed and I don't know how to get it back. Too much water under the bridge and while you can put the past behind you, some can't forget it.

I would give everything I have to be able to turn back the clock.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Conrad said:


> Brennan,
> 
> You have no idea how often I hear (from friends) how attractive and smoking hot my wife is.
> 
> They tell me this with awe in their voices.


That's awesome! I get the same, so why the need to undress others then? I don't get it. A hot wife at home and the need to think about others sexually? Eh, somethings I will never understand. I do know how it makes me feel though. Maybe I need to turn the tables.


----------



## stumblealong

Conrad said:


> Brennan,
> 
> You have no idea how often I hear (from friends) how attractive and smoking hot my wife is.
> 
> They tell me this with awe in their voices.


See, now when my man hears this from his friends, yes he gets a ego boost at the time. But I get to hear about it later. That I was in some way the one to blame for them stuffing their hands into their pockets when i'm around. That i did something to provoke those comments. well, yes i was cleaning up a pile of leaves in the back yard, oooh sexy! I realize my man may not be of the typical on this tho.

So it doesn't bother you that you know your friends are 'categorizing' your wife in the 'would do' section?


----------



## Niceguy13

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> The #1 thing that attracted me was his face. He was and still is a very good looking man. When I see a man - I look at his face first, hands second.
> 
> So intially, I though - damn - he's fine.ok base reaction upon physique
> 
> Then as we were dating I was attracted to how he listened to me (he's quiet, I'm a talky). Emotional saftey and security
> Then I started feeling safe around him - probably because of his size - he's 6'5".physical saftey and security
> 
> Then, the first time we had sex - that sealed it! He rocked my world sexually and still does exactly the same thing to this day - probably one of the reasons I miss it so much. I've never, ever had any other man rock my world in bed like he does.
> 
> So I guess the phermones were working overtime on us both. He thought I rocked his world at one time too - but that's changed and I don't know how to get it back. Too much water under the bridge and while you can put the past behind you, some can't forget it.
> 
> I would give everything I have to be able to turn back the clock.


Firstly sorry about that last paragraph you wrote know the feeling their and I sympathize with you. But you did choose him out of first to further your genetic line and you stayed with him out of the sense of security and saftey he offered you. For you as you said it was nothing finacial (read supporting you directly food shelter and the like) but you were drawn to him out of genetic stock and upon learning about him you realized he offered you the emotional security and saftey to be a proper mate. Which just highlights my point about a woman being drawn to men for different reasons then men are drawn to women.

As already said Matrilineal clans work differently because that sense of security and saftey or relieved by the clan. And tht is why they are more empowering for women sexualy. They still choose their males though for genetic strength to their offspring where as men on an instinctual level are just trying to create the largest brood. Not saying its right or wrong was just saying thats what was happening.


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## Niceguy13

stumblealong said:


> See, now when my man hears this from his friends, yes he gets a ego boost at the time. But I get to hear about it later. That I was in some way the one to blame for them stuffing their hands into their pockets when i'm around. That i did something to provoke those comments. well, yes i was cleaning up a pile of leaves in the back yard, oooh sexy! I realize my man may not be of the typical on this tho.
> 
> So it doesn't bother you that you know your friends are 'categorizing' your wife in the 'would do' section?


For me depends on the manner they do it. Are they saying I have beautiful wife and leaving at that. Are they asking in man speak damn dude how did you get so lucky? or are they saying in their own language give me the chance and I will screw your wife into the ground. Granted I don't hang out with the second group.


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## MarriedWifeInLove

Brennan said:


> That's awesome! I get the same, so why the need to undress others then? I don't get it. A hot wife at home and the need to think about others sexually? Eh, somethings I will never understand. I do know how it makes me feel though. Maybe I need to turn the tables.


It makes me feel exactly the same way, and trust me, it gets worse as you get older. It used to not bother me much - now, it bothers me all the time, I just don't say anything. That's probably why the porn usage has become a problem for me - I'm threatened that I can't complete - and I can't - face it, doesn't matter how fit or good looking for my age I am, the fact is I'm 50 and nothing I can do will ever change that.

But hey - my surgery date is coming up fast - maybe he can nip and tuck a few other things while he's there - I don't mind being plastic - as long as I'm an attractive plastic!


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## stumblealong

Niceguy13 said:


> For me depends on the manner they do it. Are they saying I have beautiful wife and leaving at that. Are they asking in man speak damn dude how did you get so lucky? or are they saying in their own language give me the chance and I will screw your wife into the ground. Granted I don't hang out with the second group.


Most of his friends are the ones that say 'how did you get so lucky?' this still p's him off. but there are the ones that are pretty lewd, this p's him off even more. I told him he should go find someone he doesn't deem attractive. It would save his mental sanity!


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## Niceguy13

stumblealong said:


> Most of his friends are the ones that say 'how did you get so lucky?' this still p's him off. but there are the ones that are pretty lewd, this p's him off even more. I told him he should go find someone he doesn't deem attractive. It would save his mental sanity!


Sounds like either possesiveness on his part or low self esteem. Either he is really really possesive or he feels that you are to good for him and any moment you are going to walk away. I have never been threatened by any guy that thought my wife was attractive while respecting me, her and my marriage. 

And I have never until recently been threaten by the lewd ones. (That happened due to my low self esteem and some other issues) However I wouldn't let them be around to chop at the proverbial tree either. No matter how strong a person is you get a hundred people chopping at a tree eventualy someone is going to score a hit.


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## Conrad

stumblealong said:


> See, now when my man hears this from his friends, yes he gets a ego boost at the time. But I get to hear about it later. That I was in some way the one to blame for them stuffing their hands into their pockets when i'm around. That i did something to provoke those comments. well, yes i was cleaning up a pile of leaves in the back yard, oooh sexy! I realize my man may not be of the typical on this tho.
> 
> So it doesn't bother you that you know your friends are 'categorizing' your wife in the 'would do' section?


I start getting annoyed when I hear her referred to as a MILF.

I think that's disrespectful of our relationship.


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## Conrad

Niceguy13 said:


> For me depends on the manner they do it. Are they saying I have beautiful wife and leaving at that. Are they asking in man speak damn dude how did you get so lucky? or are they saying in their own language give me the chance and I will screw your wife into the ground. Granted I don't hang out with the second group.


Well said.


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## Runs like Dog

Yeah I'd say that for the most part. But in truth I would rather look at a smiling face.


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## Therealbrighteyes

unbelievable said:


> A woman may be a brilliant brain surgeon or an accomplished concert pianist. We are visual creatures, however, and from across the parking lot, we see boobs, butt, and legs. We didn't ask to be this way, it isn't the product of some sinister Western European plan to dominate women. Men have been visual creatures since life began. Naturally, the female of the species are sex objects in the minds of the males of the species just as a nut is a food object for a squirrel. However God (or Nature, if you prefer) arranged things, it has worked quite well to keep the world populated and to keep male and female humans living together for millions of years. Why would someone be conceited enough in the 1960s to imagine they somehow had a better plan?
> Fixating on a strange woman's body is unproductive at best and more than a little creepy, but all straight guys do notice women and for a nanosecond, they mentally stick all women into one of two piles. It's called natural selection. Categorizing is nothing but the "selection" part. Doesn't mean they are perverted or that they wish to dominate women. Doesn't mean they are going to cheat on their wives or rape some strange woman. It just means they are functioning properly according to the laws of nature. If we wake up without our "dog" gene, women will have to immediately evolve in such a way as to produce lots of beer or horsepower or our human race will be doomed.


I wasn't suggesting that this was male dominance or anything like that. I know it isn't. Checking out women and rape are at opposite ends of the spectrum and have nothing to do with admiring the female form, nothing. 
For me, it just stinks to know that no matter how great I look, how hard I try, how many hours I workout, how much time and effort I spend in to myself, it will never be enough. He will always want more, hence imaging and visually undressing others. It doesn't make him a pervert or anything like that, I get that. What I think he and perhaps some here fail to recognize is that our egos take a hit because of this behavior. Call us fragile if you will but when us women get older, this behavior becomes more front and center in our minds and the realization that one will never be enough hurts. Again, maybe I need to turn the tables on him. Heck, my Mardi Gras episode made him take notice and he did not like it.


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## stumblealong

Niceguy13 said:


> Sounds like either possesiveness on his part or low self esteem. Either he is really really possesive or he feels that you are to good for him and any moment you are going to walk away. I have never been threatened by any guy that thought my wife was attractive while respecting me, her and my marriage.
> 
> And I have never until recently been threaten by the lewd ones. (That happened due to my low self esteem and some other issues) However I wouldn't let them be around to chop at the proverbial tree either. No matter how strong a person is you get a hundred people chopping at a tree eventualy someone is going to score a hit.


VERY possessive! He feels threatened by any man, even a nasty little troll of a man he would be suspicious of, not only them but of me too. Like i'm gonna run off with someone like that. Whole other issue! But, because of the thoughts he has about women himself, he knows what his friends are thinking looking at me. So, for some men this 'primal instinct' of imagining sex with attractive women they come in contact with, has a bad side effect. You know what these men are thinking of your woman, your daughter, sister...ect. For my man i think this must drive him insane!


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## unbelievable

Brennan,

I didn't suggest that guys do this because they are not satisfied with what they have. It isn't a choice. It's nature. I notice all women because I'm a guy but because I'm a guy who just happens to be in love with my wife, every woman I see doesn't remotely compare to the one I have. Intellectually, I know she's 43 and carrying extra weight and frequently dresses like a bum, and it's illogical to think she's prettier than a 20 year old supermodel, but love isn't a head thing. It's a heart thing and my brain has been contaminated by love. In my eyes, my wife (in any state or condition) is the sexiest woman on earth. Your husband probably feels the same way about you. We can be deeply committed without going blind or turning gay.


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## stumblealong

Brennan said:


> I wasn't suggesting that this was male dominance or anything like that. I know it isn't. Checking out women and rape are at opposite ends of the spectrum and have nothing to do with admiring the female form, nothing.
> For me, it just stinks to know that no matter how great I look, how hard I try, how many hours I workout, how much time and effort I spend in to myself, it will never be enough. He will always want more, hence imaging and visually undressing others. It doesn't make him a pervert or anything like that, I get that. What I think he and perhaps some here fail to recognize is that our egos take a hit because of this behavior. Call us fragile if you will but when us women get older, this behavior becomes more front and center in our minds and the realization that one will never be enough hurts. Again, maybe I need to turn the tables on him. Heck, my Mardi Gras episode made him take notice and he did not like it.


:iagree: 
When these men are imagining sex with a random female they come across, they may feel it does not lessen the love they feel for their wife, yet it lessens the love the wife feels coming from their husband.


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## Jellybeans

I get both sides here. As much as I love being a woman...sometimes I hate being a woman.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MarriedWifeInLove

stumblealong said:


> :iagree:
> When these men are imagining sex with a random female they come across, they may feel it does not lessen the love they feel for their wife, yet it lessens the love the wife feels coming from their husband.


:iagree:

And it lessens the respect their wife feels for them too.

Especially when its obvious and done right in front of her.


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## Runs like Dog

Of course if your gal is violently jealous that just makes us look HARDER. My rationale is sometimes you have to butter up the service personnel in order to get service. I am sure all the **** my wife gives the waitstaff means that most of the time they're spitting in her food. Gotta play the game a little bit, no?


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## mr.miketastic

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> :iagree:
> 
> And it lessens the respect their wife feels for them too.
> 
> Especially when its obvious and done right in front of her.


This is something I do not do. I might check someone out when I am by myself, but when I am with my W, she is who I am with and she is the one who gets my undivided attention. 

I told her several times that "Babe, there are millions of women in the world, but to me you are THE woman"


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## Boogsie

Brennan said:


> I wasn't suggesting that this was male dominance or anything like that. I know it isn't. Checking out women and rape are at opposite ends of the spectrum and have nothing to do with admiring the female form, nothing.
> For me, it just stinks to know that no matter how great I look, how hard I try, how many hours I workout, how much time and effort I spend in to myself, it will never be enough. He will always want more, hence imaging and visually undressing others. It doesn't make him a pervert or anything like that, I get that. What I think he and perhaps some here fail to recognize is that our egos take a hit because of this behavior. Call us fragile if you will but when us women get older, this behavior becomes more front and center in our minds and the realization that one will never be enough hurts. Again, maybe I need to turn the tables on him. Heck, my Mardi Gras episode made him take notice and he did not like it.


I still don't think you understand, at least from my point of view. I may categorize women I pass on the street, most times without even knowing I'm doing it. However, I still want to *actually* sleep with no one but my wife. It is still her that I DESIRE.

Maybe you can think of it as watching the Food Network and thinking, "I'd eat that. I wouldn't eat that. I'd eat that if it didn't have X in it." I have no actual desire to try to cook any of the crap I see on TV. I do categorize it as edible and inedible to me.

That is an over simplification but it may just get the gist across. Just because I'm making a mental note that I WOULD sleep with a woman I pass doesn't mean I even WANT to.


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## Therealbrighteyes

unbelievable said:


> Brennan,
> 
> I didn't suggest that guys do this because they are not satisfied with what they have. It isn't a choice. It's nature. I notice all women because I'm a guy but because I'm a guy who just happens to be in love with my wife, every woman I see doesn't remotely compare to the one I have. Intellectually, I know she's 43 and carrying extra weight and frequently dresses like a bum, and it's illogical to think she's prettier than a 20 year old supermodel, but love isn't a head thing. It's a heart thing and my brain has been contaminated by love. In my eyes, my wife (in any state or condition) is the sexiest woman on earth. Your husband probably feels the same way about you. We can be deeply committed without going blind or turning gay.


Very sweet of you to say that about your sweetie! On a cerebral level I get this. I am the only one for him. I know this, he tells me all the time. On an emotional level, totally different ball game. My emotions run towards if I am the only one for him, why others? If he thinks I am all that and a bag of chips, why the need to undress others? Does not compute. 
I asked him if he did this and he finally admitted he does. If I would have been more astute at 25 and asked, it wouldn't have bothered me so much. Finding out at 39 has taken a major hit to my self esteem. Now I just feel resentful. I know that isn't rational but I just do.


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## stumblealong

mr.miketastic said:


> This is something I do not do. I might check someone out when I am by myself, but when I am with my W, she is who I am with and she is the one who gets my undivided attention.
> 
> I told her several times that "Babe, there are millions of women in the world, but to me you are THE woman"


See there is control of this 'primal instinct' you choose not to hurt your wife's feelings, you want her to feel like #1, she is #1 in your eyes. Therefore you do not look when you are with her. Good deal. You are one that is capable of realizing that kind of behavior could potentially hurt feelings. This is what a lot of guys don't get.They feel they have the right to look regardless if they are with their woman or not, and we should just accept it as being a man. I guess men should just realize that most of us are sensitive creatures that want our men's undivided attention.


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## SimplyAmorous

Yes, but doesn't most women STILL get excited over some hot actor -if watching one in a romantic movie, I know I was completely GAGA over Ryan Gosling in "the Notebook", had to go out and rent every movie he ever played in, total LUST. Or does this all fall by the wayside when you get married somehow?? If so, it never fell by the wayside for me at all. 
I still get crushes on actors, Rock stars, and I am 44 ! I guess for me, how can I judge my husband for wanting to look and enjoy when I do it ? I used to get bent out of shape over his looking at Playboy bunnies, but I got over it. Now he collects them and I am fine with it. 

I surely understand ALL of your points -IF the husband is not giving enough attention at home, IF he is making comments about these other women or it is SO obvious he is doing this sizing them up & down -knowing it is hurting your feelings, this is NOT OK- it IS disrespectful. There is a fine line.

My husband may LOOK, but he rarely makes a comment, I infact make more comments than him-even about the women! He always tells me I am the only one he wants to be with, that I am even more beautiful, that I am always and forever the only one for him. I am sure this has a tremendous effect on why I am so lenient, and not bothered. 

I am capable of being a very jealous person, This I know, so I can understand if any women feels she is 2nd or not enough, this would be very very very hurtful. Men should be more mindful of these things and put his priorities on the one who loves him the most in life. 

I do not mean to upset any women on here with my comments, I know your feelings are very valid, I am a very emotional creature too.


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## sisters359

Boogsie said:


> Maybe you can think of it as watching the Food Network and thinking, "I'd eat that. I wouldn't eat that. I'd eat that if it didn't have X in it." I have no actual desire to try to cook any of the crap I see on TV. I do categorize it as edible and inedible to me.
> 
> That is an over simplification but it may just get the gist across. Just because I'm making a mental note that I WOULD sleep with a woman I pass doesn't mean I even WANT to.


Actually, I like that analogy. I think it works for women too. Another woman put it this way once: "Can I picture myself naked with him?" It's an almost unbidden thought and then just a "yes/no" and move on. A nano second in one's day. 

But if a man-or woman-- is pursuing this thought in one's company, "undressing with his eyes," indulging in the fantasy, then he's simply being rude. We're human; we notice. We're human--what we do WHEN we notice is a matter of choice.


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## unbelievable

Brennan,

Your husband does for the same reason all straight men do. It's the same reason birds fly south in the winter. It's not a choice, we are all creatures following some coded plan for our survival. Water is wet because it is. Frogs croak because that's what they do. You're suspicious of mating competition because you're a woman and you're hard wired to because that used to be a necessary survival skill for women (and in some cases, still is). That's why women mentally pick each other apart at the mall. Much of what we are has nothing to do with choice.


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## Therealbrighteyes

SimplyAmorous said:


> Yes, but doesn't most women STILL get excited over some hot actor -if watching one in a romantic movie, I know I was completely GAGA over Ryan Gosling in "the Notebook", had to go out and rent every movie he ever played in, total LUST. Or does this all fall by the wayside when you get married somehow?? If so, it never fell by the wayside for me at all.
> I still get crushes on actors, Rock stars, and I am 44 ! I guess for me, how can I judge my husband for wanting to look and enjoy when I do it ? I used to get bent out of shape over his looking at Playboy bunnies, but I got over it. Now he collects them and I am fine with it.
> 
> I surely understand ALL of your points -IF the husband is not giving enough attention at home, IF he is making comments about these other women or it is SO obvious he is doing this sizing them up & down -knowing it is hurting your feelings, this is NOT OK- it IS disrespectful. There is a fine line.
> 
> My husband may LOOK, but he rarely makes a comment, I infact make more comments than him-even about the women! He always tells me I am the only one he wants to be with, that I am even more beautiful, that I am always and forever the only one for him. I am sure this has a tremendous effect on why I am so lenient, and not bothered.
> 
> I am capable of being a very jealous person, This I know, so I can understand if any women feels she is 2nd or not enough, this would be very very very hurtful. Men should be more mindful of these things and put his priorities on the one who loves him the most in life.
> 
> I do not mean to upset any women on here with my comments, I know your feelings are very valid, I am a very emotional creature too.


You and your husband have a great marriage. My husband and I do not. I have spent a lifetime with this man who told me in essence that he isn't like other men. He held himself to some moral superiority and intellectual superiority. I thought his behavior was odd but he managed to convince me that he IS different. Only has eyes for me, etc. All lies. He lied the entire time. Would it have been easier to digest at 25? You bet. At 39? No. Just anger and resentment from me. I am/was never enough.


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## mr.miketastic

stumblealong said:


> See there is control of this 'primal instinct' you choose not to hurt your wife's feelings, you want her to feel like #1, she is #1 in your eyes. Therefore you do not look when you are with her. Good deal. You are one that is capable of realizing that kind of behavior could potentially hurt feelings. This is what a lot of guys don't get.They feel they have the right to look regardless if they are with their woman or not, and we should just accept it as being a man. I guess men should just realize that most of us are sensitive creatures that want our men's undivided attention.


It's been a running joke with us for 20 years actually. One time we were out shopping and she saw a guy who was her "type" and she forgot who I was for 5 seconds because she was apparently doing more than the nanosecond of speculation. 
She has been trying to for years to "catch" me looking at someone else but in 20 years it hasn't happened for the reasons I posted earlier.

It does make it much harder for me because I get flirted with by other women all the time when I am with my wife. Let's just say I am in-shape 6'5" guy who looks like a mixture of Kevin Sorbo, John Corbett and Adrian Paul. I never flirt back...ever. I might a little when I am on my own, but I always make sure to either flash my ring or allude to my wife and kids.

The point I guess I am trying to make is that despite issues with the marriage, I can't picture myself with any other woman besides the W.


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## Therealbrighteyes

unbelievable said:


> Brennan,
> 
> Your husband does for the same reason all straight men do. It's the same reason birds fly south in the winter. It's not a choice, we are all creatures following some coded plan for our survival. Water is wet because it is. Frogs croak because that's what they do. You're suspicious of mating competition because you're a woman and you're hard wired to because that used to be a necessary survival skill for women (and in some cases, still is). That's why women mentally pick each other apart at the mall. Much of what we are has nothing to do with choice.


If we are going to use biology to explain behavior, then why didn't I poke holes in a bunch of condoms to have more children? Biologically women want lots of children. 
People can make a choice, is what I am saying. He makes a choice every day to check out others and mentally undress them and imagine himself with them. He also makes a choice that by doing so, his wife hurts. It is a choice, plain and simple. If it was biology, then biology states as a "gatherer" I should be stealing food from others. Why don't I do this? Self control. So women have to have it and men don't? They are all just slightly more evolved animals?


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## Catherine602

unbelievable said:


> Brennan,
> 
> Your husband does for the same reason all straight men do. It's the same reason birds fly south in the winter. It's not a choice, we are all creatures following some coded plan for our survival. Water is wet because it is. Frogs croak because that's what they do. You're suspicious of mating competition because you're a woman and you're hard wired to because that used to be a necessary survival skill for women (and in some cases, still is). That's why women mentally pick each other apart at the mall. Much of what we are has nothing to do with choice.


Not true, **** sapiens are unique in that we do have a choice. All religion are based on man's ability to choose good over evil, higher brain over lower brain urges and not be ruled by instinct or some prime directive. Even humanist and atheist believe in free will. It ridiculous to think that sex is some special category that makes animal like behavior, disrespect or objectification of one of Gods children. 

This belief in man's inability to control himself has been responsible for much evil throughout the would. If you examine the population of the would woman bear the brunt of male refusal to make the choice to regard women as human with feelings just like them. 

Prervasive should not be confused instinct and I think that is the fallacy. Child labor was pervasive was it based upon man instinctual human desire to put their progeny to work to insure survival of the family. Seems plausible but managed outlaw the practice and endanger the survival of humankind.. 

Maybe it is the challenges that humans have to higher powers that is confused with instinct. The higher brain, the culmination of millions of years of evolution, frees man from instinct. The freedom allows us to react to our environment with flexibility and creativity. This give us space to turn our minds to creating great literature, music, inventions, and to reshape our sociieties to right wrongs. We evolved as a result of this fredom with out it we would still be among the apes Moreover, our higher brain makes control of all of the maladaptive urges of the lizard brain controllable if we warnt. 

The necessity to do the hard task of controlling our lower instincts is the price we pay for the removal of instincts. The primitive brain is akin to  original sin in a way, we have to work to free our selves or not. .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans

So I just went and got my hair done. There was an attractive guy waiting to be called to get his hair cut and when I walked out I noticed he was checking me out -- we locked eyes for a few seconds.

And I thought of this thread and laughed walking to my car (and needed the ego boost post-divorce anyway). I thought to myself "I wonder if he just mind-sexed me."

:rofl:

My hair looks really good, too.


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## unbelievable

Brennan,

I have already said that fixating on a woman (ie, imaging an actual sex act with her or fantasizing about her stripping) is a bit creepy and, of course, that is a choice. My point is that there is an immediate "yes", "no", "Maybe if I was drunk" sort of selection going on for the briefest of nanoseconds in every male brain (at least the straight ones). Having been male for nearly 50 years, I have been "listening" to "yep", "nope", "no way in hell", etc every day for at least 40 years. Of the thousands of guys I have worked and lived closely with, they all seem to have the same thing going on. Naturally, only a creton would attempt to act on those thoughts and one would be sort of a perv to dwell on the subject and create disgusting mental scenarios. I'm a Christian and I'm married. Neither experience rendered me blind or oblivious to my surroundings. The OP asked how men thought and I've given the most honest answer I can.


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## SimplyAmorous

Brennan said:


> I have spent a lifetime with this man who told me in essence that he isn't like other men. He held himself to some moral superiority and intellectual superiority. I thought his behavior was odd but he managed to convince me that he IS different. Only has eyes for me, etc. All lies. He lied the entire time. Would it have been easier to digest at 25? You bet. At 39? No. Just anger and resentment from me. I am/was never enough.


I would be angry & resentful too, REALLY I WOULD! but more because he hid who he was & acted something he was not - to IMPRESS, to show he is superior as you say, better than the average man. This is precisely why I value OPENNESS & HONESTY so much from people -no matter how BAD it sounds , I want to hear it STRAIGHT. So I can decide if I can "live with it", live with the REAL human imperfections this man carries in his heart-every day. Most men are sexually minded, they are drawn to the curves, I believe that. 

*I think Unbelievable's posts are very very balanced on this issue. * 


*Brennen Why do you feel he HID, that is the question ?? * I am sure when you met he was head over heels but still had this issue he was hiding, likely ashamed of. 

Maybe not in your case, maybe you was very open - wanted him to show himself & he failed. 

BUt I think Men are WARNED from early on by other men with experience -you can NEVER tell a woman what is REALLY going on in your head ,-that is like asking to be put through a shredder. 

I have a friend who I remember her saying near the beginning of her marraige, something to the effect of -if I ever catch him looking at another woman, incuding porn, she would cut his balls off. She said this in front of a group of us. Do you think her husband would ever OPEN up to her ? I know this man, faithful, still married today after 25 yrs, but IF he was like others (which he probably was) it had to be locked away forever hidden under key- to keep PEACE and keep his genitals. 

I don't expect perfection from people, accually I EXPECT some weakness's instead. Show me some of the dirt so I can see who you REALLY are, that is my motto. 

I bet there are many men who avoided this very thread just because they KNOW if they are truly honest about this subject, they will be slammed, so they click away , knowing they will never be understood. They are deemed dogs. 

I always knew my husband liked Playboy & strippers turned him on, I knew this before we married. He never acted like he did not enjoy that sort of thing. He tried to stay away from it, I used to catch him, I cried , I put scriptures on the computer screen, I shamed him , he would stop for awhile but go back eventually. It was an allure he could not stop. But in reality it never affected us in any way, I had to see the BIG picture, I wanted his honesty more than his being perfect. 


* Can women handle the truth ?* 

I seen this play out 1st hand at a Water Park. This young guy & girl distraught near the adult Hot tub, I was watching the drama unfold. Sitting in silence, she was crying, he was holding his head in his hands, visually upset, he kept trying to comfort her, she pushed him away, he went over to her, now he was crying kneeling at her feet, she pushed him away. At this point I was really intreged to see this YOUNG man crying! He left & I was bold enough to go up to this young woman in the Hot tub & start a conversation, and this was the issue! He mentioned something about going somewhere -with her, something about "girls being there". Yeah it was STUPID of him - that hurt her, threw her into a tail spin. He could have said this to the guys, but never a girlfriend! 

I seen this guy moments earlier CRYING at her feet, He must have cared, who does this in PUBLIC!?? She even told me he was the BEST boyfriend ever in her life, how he cares for her but she couldn't get past this. 

I can tell you one thing, that day that young man learned to NEVER open up about his mental fantasies again to a woman. He learned his lesson loud & clear, almost costing him his girlfriend . I think talking to ME about the male mind , some hormonal influences -it helped her see a little of his side, as she felt he truly cared for her. I got her smiling again through the tears. She was a little amazed we go to Strip clubs sometimes. 

Maybe he was a jerk, I don't know. But then maybe he was a good guy caught in an unguarded naughty minded moment -inserting foot into mouth. We all do it from time to time. 

I think this subject is a TIGHT ROPE for men. Better to keep hiding cause from the majority of women posters here, they will NEVER win in the "understanding" department.


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## Boogsie

SimplyAmorous said:


> I think this subject is a TIGHT ROPE for men. Better to keep hiding cause from the majority of women posters here, they will NEVER win in the "understanding" department.


I think you are right. My wife always tells me she wants me to open to but I've NEVER had good results when I try. I don't think she could handle my testosterone packed mind.


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## seeking sanity

Why is there so much moralizing. The original poster asked for a male mindset, got straight answers and then it turned into a bunch of judgements by the women. If you don't want truthful answers don't ask.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## unbelievable

Women are hugely competitive because for most of earth's history, losing a man meant death or privation for the woman and any children she may have. This is also why women who live together end up on the same menstrual cycle. This is why women often feel free to look like bums at home with their man but won't dare go to the mall (where they will meet other women) without fixing themselves up a bit. These are largely not choices but primal instincts given us for our survival. This is why women ask their men ridiculous questions like "did you see that girl?" "Do you think she's hot?" "If I died, who would you replace me with?" Men and women are just wired differently and those differences end up causing these no-win arguments. Women can't understand how men think, exactly, any more than a guy can truly understand how a woman's mind operates. We're just different and because we're different, our species has survived. We may like to imagine we're some sort of morally superior paragons of virtue, but we're mammals, only somewhat evolved from our ancestors. Want to find out how thin that line is? Watch groups of people removed from their modern trappings and subjected to severe stress. We revert to caveman type behavior quicker than you might think.


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## sisters359

> Women are hugely competitive because for most of earth's history, losing a man meant death or privation for the woman and any children she may have.


More unsubstantiated assumption, ignoring the fact that humans evolved in social groups, not one man/one woman units. We would not have survived that way. And we cannot "revert to cavemen" because we have such false notions of how they lived. 

But yes, we are very different--as individuals. I cannot imagine what is going on in the mind of my best friend. I might *assume* based on social training, but that stands a good chance of being wrong. 

Women don't ask those questions b/c they are competitive, I'm betting; it has a lot more to do with poor self-esteem. That seems to be one thing a lot of people of both sexes have in common.


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## SimplyAmorous

unbelievable said:


> I have already said that fixating on a woman (ie, imaging an actual sex act with her or fantasizing about her stripping) is a bit creepy and, of course, that is a choice. My point is that there is an immediate "yes", "no", "Maybe if I was drunk" sort of selection going on for the briefest of nanoseconds in every male brain (at least the straight ones). Having been male for nearly 50 years, I have been "listening" to "yep", "nope", "no way in hell", etc every day for at least 40 years. Of the thousands of guys I have worked and lived closely with, they all seem to have the same thing going on. Naturally, only a creton would attempt to act on those thoughts and one would be sort of a perv to dwell on the subject and create disgusting mental scenarios. I'm a Christian and I'm married. Neither experience rendered me blind or oblivious to my surroundings. The OP asked how men thought and I've given the most honest answer I can.


Ok, I talked with MY Husband tonight, I wanted to know how mentally *his mind *works in this regard. I shared with him Unbelievable's response in my own words, he said this is TRUE of him also. Now remember he is not the type to envision having SEX with any women he looks at, so he is out of the "Creepy" category. 

Here is how he explained it ....

1st he looks at the face, this will not sound nice but he says "if she is dog faced, no sense in going any further", then he automatically puts them into baskets >>> "Doable" ..."Maybe".... or "ewwww NEVER". He said IF there is a CHOICE in these matters, it would be to LOOK AWAY immediately, but he admitted he doesn't want to do that, "it is no fun". Then here is his next mental thoughts within seconds "I love my wife, STD's, I love my kids , STD's" and that is the end of the fleeting fantasy. 

I have to say I am similar, I look at guys, I enjoy it, I also look at women, I compare, this is all normal behavior I feel. 

My husband even KNOWS what turns me on (long haired guys), he has even pointed them out to me. And I know what he likes -Brunnets without tatoos. Sometimes I do a double take when I see the Rock star type, my husband just shakes his head & smiles. He is not bothered, half the time they could be my son's age! I know what I have at home, my thoughts aren't "oh if I only had him instead" but just "OH he is Hot" -not envisioning sex. These thoughts only linger seconds also. 

Although I am worse than my husband, I have had such momentary "sexual thoughts" about an actor, famous musicain & Porn star before. I am a naughty woman. But still very much in love with my man. He gets all the benefits of my naughtiness, so he is not complaining or worried about this at all.


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## unbelievable

Sisters359,

Sexual competition among females is not an unsubstantiated assumption but well documented through scientific research. That having a man was vital to a woman's survival as well as for her child is only logical. A woman couldn't hunt her own food and care for a newborn at the same time. Men are physically capable of impregnanting any number of women but a woman is capable of one pregnancy at a time. That would naturally require women to be fiercely competitive. This has been taught to our daughters for centuries. Cinderella - a story of a poor young lady competing with her stepsisters on the basis of asthetics to capture the prize - marriage to the prince and everlasting security "happily ever after". Snow White - homeless young lady in competition on the basis of asthetics with the queen. She won her ultimate prize - marriage to the prince and everlasting security.


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## AFEH

unbelievable said:


> Sisters359,
> 
> Sexual competition among females is not an unsubstantiated assumption but well documented through scientific research. That having a man was vital to a woman's survival as well as for her child is only logical. A woman couldn't hunt her own food and care for a newborn at the same time. Men are physically capable of impregnanting any number of women but a woman is capable of one pregnancy at a time. That would naturally require women to be fiercely competitive. This has been taught to our daughters for centuries. Cinderella - a story of a poor young lady competing with her stepsisters on the basis of asthetics to capture the prize - marriage to the prince and everlasting security "happily ever after". Snow White - homeless young lady in competition on the basis of asthetics with the queen. She won her ultimate prize - marriage to the prince and everlasting security.


It’s funny I always thought women who showed their boobs, low cut fronts, leaning forward etc. etc. were in the main doing it as an attraction to man. But then I discovered some do it to show other women just how big their boobs are.

Bob


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## Deejo

Personally, I never do this. I understand that a woman wants to be valued and desired for what's on the inside ... not the outside. But upon that first glance, I can't help but notice her eyes, her smile; does she radiate warmth, joy, confidence ... 


This post has been brought to you by the word obfuscation and the number 10.

Most women aren't going to understand this process. Not ever. Won't happen. Can't happen. And although I don't doubt or minimize when someone's feelings are hurt as a result, it generally has absolutely zero to do with conscious lechery or desire to harm your partner.

I think Unbelievable gave the best summary, regarding the visual, nanosecond check list. One that will certainly make sense to every man, and vex many females. It _ISN'T_ about consciously conjuring up the imagery of tagging every hot, or even mildly attractive woman you see. But in the same area of a man's brain that doesn't think about the unconscious actions of breathing, blinking, or scratching an itch ... upon gazing at a female is a 'Yes', 'No', 'Maybe', 'Not in a million years' inventory that takes place. And that's it. It doesn't turn into wild, drawn out fantasies, or always equate to grossly inappropriate thoughts. It's a check box. That's it. It has absolutely zero to do with conditioning, entitlement, rape fantasy, misogyny, or disrespect.

However, if you are with a guy that consistently is oggling, staring, or generally paying far more attention to other women than to you ... this is a completely different animal. That is about lack of attraction and respect. It is NOT the check list. Trying to make the check list about lack of attraction and disrespect on the part of a male would be equally disingenuous.


Women have the same check list. It just works slower.


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## Conrad

seeking sanity said:


> Why is there so much moralizing. The original poster asked for a male mindset, got straight answers and then it turned into a bunch of judgements by the women. If you don't want truthful answers don't ask.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Birds fly, snakes slither, penguins waddle, and women judge.


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## sisters359

unbelievable said:


> Sisters359,
> 
> Sexual competition among females is not an unsubstantiated assumption but well documented through scientific research. That having a man was vital to a woman's survival as well as for her child is only logical. A woman couldn't hunt her own food and care for a newborn at the same time. Men are physically capable of impregnanting any number of women but a woman is capable of one pregnancy at a time. That would naturally require women to be fiercely competitive. This has been taught to our daughters for centuries. Cinderella - a story of a poor young lady competing with her stepsisters on the basis of asthetics to capture the prize - marriage to the prince and everlasting security "happily ever after". Snow White - homeless young lady in competition on the basis of asthetics with the queen. She won her ultimate prize - marriage to the prince and everlasting security.


That some modern women may compete is one thing; to say women are competitive implies it is a natural state. Most women want the approval of other women, rather than to "win out" against them. Huge difference. 

And research also shows that indivdiaul women did not rely on individual men for support--humans are social groups and it took a "band" to raise children-women even hunted, and the bones at hunt sites show. 

The modern configuration--nuclear family--is actually the exception in history, not the rule--extended family and villages, with common fields, etc., were the norm, not the exception. Concepts like private ownership of land changed that.


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## AbsolutelyFree

I still haven't read the whole thread, but I thought I would chime in again. 

This really has nothing to do with whether a man is nice, mean, creepy, alpha, beta, whatever. It's just part of being a man. It's the natural response we have.

I once heard some Christian speaker on the radio say that for a man to see a woman and not feel those feelings of attraction is kind of like looking at the letters of a word, but not reading what it says. You can't choose not to do it, it's just what you do.


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## AFEH

I think it’s gets real interesting when instead of “checking other women out” to just ignore them from that point of view. And then to use peripheral vision to see whose checking you out. It doesn’t take much to notice the “signs”. A longer than usual eye contact on your body rather than the 10 or 20 people within her vision, sometimes the “full body” scan. A turned head. Looking up and noticing a woman looking away, yes she was “lingering and thinking”. Sometimes when they’re really focused and scanning when they noticed you’ve seen them their embarrassment is quite obvious.

I think it all part somehow of an initial courtship ritual, as natural as the sun coming up in the morning.

Bob


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## Deejo

seeking sanity said:


> Why is there so much moralizing. The original poster asked for a male mindset, got straight answers and then it turned into a bunch of judgements by the women. If you don't want truthful answers don't ask.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Have a very good friend that works with troubled kids, and mentors foster parent programs. He only knows one mode of responding: being real.

I worked with him years ago, and one of his sayings that stood out to me then, and he still uses today:



> "Don't ask scary questions if you aren't prepared for scary answers."


And for the record, while I was on vacation with the kids and also at a water park ... there were 348 'No chance in hell's' 11 'Maybe's' and 2 'Hell Yes's'


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## unbelievable

For women, approach a guy's brain much the same way you might your septic tank. It works, be glad it works, but you really don't want to go in there.


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## Therealbrighteyes

unbelievable said:


> For women, approach a guy's brain much the same way you might your septic tank. It works, be glad it works, but you really don't want to go in there.


It still comes down to one never being enough though and that is a tough pill to swallow and one I don't feel I should be forced to choke down. The whole thing just makes me sad.


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## SimplyAmorous

Brennon: 

In my experience (with another issue with my own husband, I was convincing myself of something that was NOT even true- I couldn't shake it, no matter what he said to me, I seen something else). 

Sometimes our overly sensitive brains go off the deep end, because we do not LIKE a certain response or we feel a behaviour should be different-since it makes no living sense to us , we become STUCK, we let our hurt build, building in our minds to become a MOUNTAIN, possibly a mountain that is not even there for the man at all ! 

Is it at all possible this is true in your particular case? 

What does your husband DO exactly, does he say things outright, or look these women up & down in your presence?

Is THIS the primary issue that started you down the wrong path, -catching him looking, maybe getting him to open up and being more hurt with his responses? 

I am just assuming it must be MORE than just this. But I suppose even if a man has been totally faithful for many years, if a wife gets this in her head , this alone could drive a wedge, I just wonder if YOu are making more out of it -than he acually FEELS. 

If so, that would be a shame. What does he say about his looking ? A "man thing" like every other guy on here. Is he UPSET that you view this so damaging & cant get past it -or does he acknowledge he has been a BAD husband and has taken it too far?


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## Runs like Dog

We men don't think.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## unbelievable

Brennan,

It has nothing to do with one person being "enough" or not. My floor is carpetted but my dog still makes circles before laying down on it. My house cat still likes to pretend "hunt" though she's never had to catch her own food. That's because evolution gave them those instincts. It's not a choice for them. Noticing women in terms of sexual attractiveness is not a choice for guys. Feeling competitive and critical of other women isn't entirely a choice for women. It's caveman stuff that we still drag around with us whether we like it or not.


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## Therealbrighteyes

SimplyAmorous said:


> Brennon:
> 
> In my experience (with another issue with my own husband, I was convincing myself of something that was NOT even true- I couldn't shake it, no matter what he said to me, I seen something else).
> 
> Sometimes our overly sensitive brains go off the deep end, because we do not LIKE a certain response or we feel a behaviour should be different-since it makes no living sense to us , we become STUCK, we let our hurt build, building in our minds to become a MOUNTAIN, possibly a mountain that is not even there for the man at all !
> 
> Is it at all possible this is true in your particular case?
> 
> What does your husband DO exactly, does he say things outright, or look these women up & down in your presence?
> 
> Is THIS the primary issue that started you down the wrong path, -catching him looking, maybe getting him to open up and being more hurt with his responses?
> 
> I am just assuming it must be MORE than just this. But I suppose even if a man has been totally faithful for many years, if a wife gets this in her head , this alone could drive a wedge, I just wonder if YOu are making more out of it -than he acually FEELS.
> 
> If so, that would be a shame. What does he say about his looking ? A "man thing" like every other guy on here. Is he UPSET that you view this so damaging & cant get past it -or does he acknowledge he has been a BAD husband and has taken it too far?


1. I don't like being lied to.
2. Yes, in my presence, not in my presence.
3. He doesn't think it is a big deal. He needs "variety".
4. Trivializes my feelings saying "oh come on".
5. I feel old and these women he checks out are 20 somethings.

Resentment baby. As I have mentioned before, marriage is skidding towards divorce. Although this is not the root cause of it, it certainly doesn't help.


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## SimplyAmorous

Brennan said:


> 1. I don't like being lied to.
> 2. Yes, in my presence, not in my presence.
> 3. He doesn't think it is a big deal. He needs "variety".
> 4. Trivializes my feelings saying "oh come on".
> 5. I feel old and these women he checks out are 20 somethings.
> 
> Resentment baby. As I have mentioned before, marriage is skidding towards divorce. Although this is not the root cause of it, it certainly doesn't help.


IF there was NO other root cause and HE was HONEST about this in the very beginning -how Men are visual,-he is visual, it is our nature, we like a little variety in our thought life -but his stressing going outside of that was an absolute NO NO, he loves you, but please understand him. Do you believe you could have "accepted" that or dumped him right then & there ? 

I even asked my christian son this question today, he is 20yrs old, still a virgin by choice, He is head over heels for ONE GIRL for over a year now, he is all into "lets be friends 1st" and not pushing, has ZERO interest in anyone else. He treats all women with the utmost respect. EVEN he admits to the "Yes" "Maybe" "NO" way of instinct every time he looks at a woman. My son has VERY HIGH morality standards for himself, I think he is missing some of the fun in life , but he says NO. We accually argue about his morality sometimes, he tells me I am corrupt. The point being, even the greatest of moral men still DO this. 

Does the way Unbelievable & Deejo describe this still offend you? I take it you believe your husband goes BEYOND what they are describing?


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## DepressedHusband

Window shopping is a sport, a little flirting and a tiny bit of jealousy from me to the wife or the wife to me has always been good fuel for the sexual part of the relationship.


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## Halien

SimplyAmorous said:


> IF there was NO other root cause and HE was HONEST about this in the very beginning -how Men are visual,-he is visual, it is our nature, we like a little variety in our thought life -but his stressing going outside of that was an absolute NO NO, he loves you, but please understand him. Do you believe you could have "accepted" that or dumped him right then & there ?
> 
> I even asked my christian son this question today, he is 20yrs old, still a virgin by choice, He is head over heels for ONE GIRL for over a year now, he is all into "lets be friends 1st" and not pushing, has ZERO interest in anyone else. He treats all women with the utmost respect. EVEN he admits to the "Yes" "Maybe" "NO" way of instinct every time he looks at a woman. My son has VERY HIGH morality standards for himself, I think he is missing some of the fun in life , but he says NO. We accually argue about his morality sometimes, he tells me I am corrupt. The point being, even the greatest of moral men still DO this.
> 
> Does the way Unbelievable & Deejo describe this still offend you? I take it you believe your husband goes BEYOND what they are describing?


Maybe I'm very old fashioned, but I don't think your son is missing out on anything. Sure, all of us can't help but look from time to time. Those of us who hold ourselves to an internal code of ethics, or religion, however, don't like this part of ourselves and try to prove ourselves to be above it. 

Some of us, as men, see the capability for love in many women, and we are inspired by it. This leads to a relationship that is deeper and more profound, with benefits that far exceed any kind of guilty thoughts from looking at another woman. Through a good woman, we learn to be a good husband. We want her to feel secure and know that we understand that we have a good thing with her. So, I think its pretty amazing that your young son knows that there is something profound in a good relationship, and he's going for it. Yeah, it is possible that in midlife, he will question this decision, but as long as she doesn't, I bet it will carry him through the midlife stage. Many men in today's world, however, will never understand it, and will make fun of it. 

One thing that many women forget is that this tendency to look is something we can admit on an anonymous board, but its harder to admit when looking into the mirror. Its very hard to admit when we're trying to raise a daughter, or a son.


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## Jellybeans

People are always going to find other people attractive. It's human nature. I don't think it's a "not being enough" thing. As long as your partner is w/ you and committed to you and not disrespecting you by saying "Hey I really want to have sex with Michael/Kim", then I don't see the problem. 

I think men are prob more visual and think of sex more but as long as neither party is acting on it, I don't see the problem.


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## Jellybeans

Deejo said:


> But in the same area of a man's brain that doesn't think about the unconscious actions of breathing, blinking, or scratching an itch ... upon gazing at a female is a 'Yes', 'No', 'Maybe', 'Not in a million years' inventory that takes place. And that's it. It doesn't turn into wild, drawn out fantasies, or always equate to grossly inappropriate thoughts. It's a check box. That's it.



Honestly I think to a degree everyone does this. Granted, I don't think of sex bu if I see someone I think "He's handsome/He's not so handsome/ He's hot/ He's not/Helllllo, sexy."

It's just about seeing someone and finding them attractive or not.


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## ManDup

Brennan said:


> 1. I don't like being lied to.
> 2. Yes, in my presence, not in my presence.
> 3. He doesn't think it is a big deal. He needs "variety".
> 4. Trivializes my feelings saying "oh come on".
> 5. I feel old and these women he checks out are 20 somethings.
> 
> Resentment baby. As I have mentioned before, marriage is skidding towards divorce. Although this is not the root cause of it, it certainly doesn't help.


You are being very immature about this. Tell me, do you like being attractive when you go out, or do you only wear sweats? I notice your profile pic is of red f-me pumps, so I doubt the latter. 

The truth is that ANY man who is attracted to women "sorts them into piles" as described by another writer here. Doable, not doable. Maybe there is some level of degree. It happens instantaneously, and it is not bad or wrong, and has nothing to do with "being enough." 

As far as being enough, do you really want to be enough, or do you just want what you give to be enough? There's a big distinction between giving your husband enough, and expecting whatever you give him to be enough. 

In the unlikely case that you really want to be enough, just make that known to your husband, that you are available for him whenever the whim strikes him. Try that for 30 days; I guarantee the rest of your marital conflicts will fade into the background. Come back here for your money back if not.


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## Runs like Dog

An acquaintance of mine is polygamist, as is their custom in their country. Wife 1 is always wife 1. The head wife. As she gets older she has less to do with her husband and a great deal more to do with the running of their rather large family. Wife 2 fulfills more of the traditional wifely duties now in terms of marital relations and sex and what not. Wife 3 they treat rather shabbily by our western standards. The other two wives treat her like a servant and scullery maid. But she will move up the ranks someday to be at least #2 if not head wife. Now if their husband takes a 4th wife she will be very young. If not then her rank in the family will be extremely hard to pin down and it will create a great deal of tension. 

Anyway that's how they do it in ZA and Botswana.


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## MarriedWifeInLove

ManDup said:


> You are being very immature about this. Tell me, do you like being attractive when you go out, or do you only wear sweats? I notice your profile pic is of red f-me pumps, so I doubt the latter.
> 
> The truth is that ANY man who is attracted to women "sorts them into piles" as described by another writer here. Doable, not doable. Maybe there is some level of degree. It happens instantaneously, and it is not bad or wrong, and has nothing to do with "being enough."
> 
> As far as being enough, do you really want to be enough, or do you just want what you give to be enough? There's a big distinction between giving your husband enough, and expecting whatever you give him to be enough.
> 
> In the unlikely case that you really want to be enough, just make that known to your husband, that you are available for him whenever the whim strikes him. Try that for 30 days; I guarantee the rest of your marital conflicts will fade into the background. Come back here for your money back if not.


I think for her, it's being led in one direction, then the switch coming.

The ole' bait and switch.

It would piss anyone off.

I don't really mind my husband looking, but when he does it in front of me and makes it obvious - well, it's disrespectful and hurtful.

If I see a good looking guy, I don't turn my head, look them up and down or follow them with my eyes when I'm in the company of my husband - that's the difference.

Us, as women can sometimes have fragile self-esteem and confidence. Especially when we're bombarded constantly with scantily clad women that are directly designed to get our husband's attention - I know he likes looking - but just don't shove it down my throat or face.

As you get older, it gets worse. 20 years ago it bothered me a lot less than it does now, at 50.

Look, but don't make ME feel like crap when you do. You picked me, be satisfied with me, or dump me and got get someone else. Don't make ME feel inferior because I'm not 20 anymore or I don't have that long flowing blond hair or those perky breasts, etc. Then I won't make you feel inferior with that gray hair, pot-belly, and man-boobs.


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## Runs like Dog

Of course you console yourself that to a 50+ man, a 20 year old chick is retarded. And he looks like an idiot pursuing her. 

"Where were you on 911?"

"In 5th grade."

Durrrr.


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## MarriedWifeInLove

Runs like Dog said:


> Of course you console yourself that to a 50+ man, a 20 year old chick is retarded. And he looks like an idiot pursuing her.
> 
> "Where were you on 911?"
> 
> "In 5th grade."
> 
> Durrrr.


Yeah, but there are a lot of older men that wouldn't even care if they could spell, as long as they knew what S E X was!

I'm not sure my husband would even care if they had a brain...


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## Runs like Dog

Sweet young things don't know much about the bedroom either.


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## frustr8dhubby

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Look, but don't make ME feel like crap when you do. You picked me, be satisfied with me, or dump me and got get someone else. Don't make ME feel inferior because I'm not 20 anymore or I don't have that long flowing blond hair or those perky breasts, etc. Then I won't make you feel inferior with that gray hair, pot-belly, and man-boobs.


MWIL,

You crack me up! BTW, my man-boobs are HOT! 

Brennan,

I know we don't agree much "politically" but I didn't know you were having such marital issues now too.. I am truly sorry..


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove

frustr8dhubby said:


> MWIL,
> 
> You crack me up! BTW, my man-boobs are HOT!
> 
> Brennan,
> 
> I know we don't agree much "politically" but I didn't know you were having such marital issues now too.. I am truly sorry..


Actually - my husband's are too - now...if he would just let me at 'em!


----------



## ManDup

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> If I see a good looking guy, I don't turn my head, look them up and down or follow them with my eyes when I'm in the company of my husband - that's the difference.


Yes, the difference is that he is a man and you are a woman. He's more visual, and has less stigma attached to looking.



MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Look, but don't make ME feel like crap when you do. You picked me, be satisfied with me, or dump me and got get someone else. Don't make ME feel inferior because I'm not 20 anymore or I don't have that long flowing blond hair or those perky breasts, etc. Then I won't make you feel inferior with that gray hair, pot-belly, and man-boobs.


How you feel is up to you. If your husband says, "Look at that hot piece of meat" directly to you, maybe he means, "Look what I could chase, but I stick with you. I do so out of choice, not because society tells me to or because I'm afraid I couldn't get that if I tried, but because I love you." Think that next time, and you will be a lot closer to reality. Meanwhile, let your hair grow out.


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## Therealbrighteyes

ManDup said:


> You are being very immature about this. Tell me, do you like being attractive when you go out, or do you only wear sweats? I notice your profile pic is of red f-me pumps, so I doubt the latter.
> 
> The truth is that ANY man who is attracted to women "sorts them into piles" as described by another writer here. Doable, not doable. Maybe there is some level of degree. It happens instantaneously, and it is not bad or wrong, and has nothing to do with "being enough."
> 
> As far as being enough, do you really want to be enough, or do you just want what you give to be enough? There's a big distinction between giving your husband enough, and expecting whatever you give him to be enough.
> 
> In the unlikely case that you really want to be enough, just make that known to your husband, that you are available for him whenever the whim strikes him. Try that for 30 days; I guarantee the rest of your marital conflicts will fade into the background. Come back here for your money back if not.


You are pretty abrasive. No need to be. 
I am very fortunate in that a wonderful person who contributes to this website often has written and published a book. One that I am currently reading and things are becoming more clear.


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## stumblealong

ManDup said:


> How you feel is up to you. If your husband says, "Look at that hot piece of meat" directly to you, maybe he means, "Look what I could chase, but I stick with you. I do so out of choice, not because society tells me to or because I'm afraid I couldn't get that if I tried, but because I love you." Think that next time, and you will be a lot closer to reality. Meanwhile, let your hair grow out.


Na...what we'd be thinking is that if I wasn't here with you, you just may try chasing that woman. I mean if the man is bold enough to look at other women, even tho he knows this hurts his own woman's feelings, we are thinking...just what does he do while gawking when he is alone. Obviously we think he would take it even further since I'm not around. If he is capable of these remarks while I'm here, what does he do when i'm not here??

I think in reading this thread that it doesn't bother most women if it is just this 'checklist, fleeting thought' type thing. But when it turns into ogling and disrespecting your woman is when the line is drawn. Another thing is this...if the woman truly feels love in the relationship, this does not seem to be an issue. If the woman does not feel love coming from her partner (whether he does love her or not) these actions minimize the love we feel in the relationship all together. 

Men and women will truly never 'get' how one another think. But know this, every woman wants to know or feel she is the apple of her man's eye!


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## MarriedWifeInLove

ManDup said:


> Yes, the difference is that he is a man and you are a woman. He's more visual, and has less stigma attached to looking.
> 
> 
> How you feel is up to you. If your husband says, "Look at that hot piece of meat" directly to you, maybe he means, "Look what I could chase, but I stick with you. I do so out of choice, not because society tells me to or because I'm afraid I couldn't get that if I tried, but because I love you." Think that next time, and you will be a lot closer to reality. Meanwhile, let your hair grow out.


Look what I could chase, but I stick with you.

You mean - I'm stuck with you.

Because that's how it sounds to US (women).

And I couldn't get that if I tried, but because I love you - another "nice" way of saying I'm stuck with you.

You do have a way with words. Sure my husband isn't your twin?


----------



## magnoliagal

I don't care who my husband looks at or what he thinks about while looking. I just don't want to know about it. This is one of those things that I prefer he be discreet about.


----------



## Jellybeans

Runs like Dog said:


> Of course you console yourself that to a 50+ man, a 20 year old chick is retarded. And he looks like an idiot pursuing her.
> 
> "Where were you on 911?"
> 
> "In 5th grade."
> 
> Durrrr.


LOL, Runs! 

This thread is cracking me up. Now when I am outside and people watching, I see men looking at women and I'm wondering if he is thinking "doable/not doable." :lol:

*I do have one question* though.... someone posted there are these categories: "Doable, Not Doable, and Maybe If I Was Drunk."

Who would qualify as "Maybe if I was drunk?" :rofl:


----------



## Boogsie

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Look what I could chase, but I stick with you.
> 
> You mean - I'm stuck with you.
> 
> Because that's how it sounds to US (women).
> 
> And I couldn't get that if I tried, but because I love you - another "nice" way of saying I'm stuck with you.
> 
> You do have a way with words. Sure my husband isn't your twin?


Ahhh, this old thing. I have this problem with my wife as well. I will say something and she hears something else. I say what I mean. If I say "Look what I could chase, but I stick with you." Then I mean, "Look what I could chase, but I stick with you."

How is it your husbands problem if you hear something different than what he says?

When my wife asks me what is wrong and I tell her, "Erm, it has been three months since we had sex and I'm getting antsy."

She hears, "You are a bad wife and everything that is wrong in this house is your fault."

I'm direct, honest, and don't pull punches. If she asks a question, she gets the answer. It is NOT my problem if she interprets it differently than said.

The opposite is also true. If she says something, I take her for exactly what she says. I will ask, "Do you need a hand with that?" She will say no, so I go about my business. Only to be told later that, "Couldn't you see me struggling? Any decent person would have given me a hand." Hey, I asked, and you said no, NOT MY PROBLEM.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Boogsie said:


> Ahhh, this old thing. I have this problem with my wife as well. I will say something and she hears something else. I say what I mean. If I say "Look what I could chase, but I stick with you." Then I mean, "Look what I could chase, but I stick with you."
> 
> How is it your husbands problem if you hear something different than what he says?
> 
> When my wife asks me what is wrong and I tell her, "Erm, it has been three months since we had sex and I'm getting antsy."
> 
> She hears, "You are a bad wife and everything that is wrong in this house is your fault."
> 
> I'm direct, honest, and don't pull punches. If she asks a question, she gets the answer. It is NOT my problem if she interprets it differently than said.
> 
> The opposite is also true. If she says something, I take her for exactly what she says. I will ask, "Do you need a hand with that?" She will say no, so I go about my business. Only to be told later that, "Couldn't you see me struggling? Any decent person would have given me a hand." Hey, I asked, and you said no, NOT MY PROBLEM.


"Sticking" with someone isn't a compliment to most women. The past tense of the word being stuck. I don't know many men who find that a compliment either.


----------



## Boogsie

Brennan said:


> "Sticking" with someone isn't a compliment to most women. The past tense of the word being stuck. I don't know many men who find that a compliment either.


"Stuck" has many usages, not only the one you have decided to choose.

Does "He stuck with her even though she had an affair." have the same means as "How would you like to be stuck with her?"


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Boogsie said:


> "Stuck" has many usages, not only the one you have decided to choose.
> 
> Does "He stuck with her even though she had an affair." have the same means as "How would you like to be stuck with her?"


The way you phrased it is "look at what I could chase but I stick with you". I don't know too many people who would take that as a compliment, man or woman. It makes it sound (to me) like the person should feel grateful that the spouse isn't tossing them aside for "that".


----------



## Jellybeans

Can someone please explain who falls under the MAYBE IF I WAS DRUNK category? LOL.


----------



## ManDup

Brennan said:


> The way you phrased it is "look at what I could chase but I stick with you". I don't know too many people who would take that as a compliment, man or woman. It makes it sound (to me) like the person should feel grateful that the spouse isn't tossing them aside for "that".


Aren't you grateful for that? It is you that is reading the whole stuck thing into it, I promise. I prefer open an honest communication to all this nuancing of possible word meanings. When I stick by my friends, I don't consider myself to be stuck with them. 

Geez woman, your over-sensitivity is grating for my tastes. And your projecting your husband onto me. Does that mean you're attracted to me? I get that a lot. 

@Jellybeans
As for what is meant by "ok, if I was drunk", category, that depends on how drunk :rofl: I've never been the type to change categories when drunk, though. Notice I only listed two. Are you trying to get me drunk and take advantage of me?


----------



## Jellybeans

ManDup said:


> @Jellybeans
> As for what is meant by "ok, if I was drunk", category, that depends on how drunk :rofl*: I've never been the type to change categories when drunk, though.* Notice I only listed two.


 :lol:

LOL. Well SOMEONE, I can't remember who, but they said "Maybe if drunk." I just thought that was a scary-funny category. Like a Lindsay Lohan category or something. :rofl:


----------



## hippygirl39

So, are we pretty much saying that it's unlikely that someone would be wanted for their mind? I know that men think a lot about sex, but I did think/hope that personality would come into it too. Maybe that's why my marriage is in trouble!:scratchhead:


----------



## Deejo

hippygirl39 said:


> So, are we pretty much saying that it's unlikely that someone would be wanted for their mind? I know that men think a lot about sex, but I did think/hope that personality would come into it too. Maybe that's why my marriage is in trouble!:scratchhead:


Your mind, how you think, behave, sense of humor, level of intelligence, and ability to empathize, communicate, and comprehend both verbal and non-verbal communication have EVERYTHING to do with sustaining a long term relationship.

But ...

What I thought the OP was referring to, and what I was referring to, is that split second dip-switch that goes off the moment a man lays eyes on a woman. If he is very attracted to her ... it isn't her frontal lobe that got his attention out of the gate.


----------



## hippygirl39

Good point Deejo, you are probably right and it is the attraction thing that instantly draws you to someone - I think I was just briefly disillusioned that it all seemed to be about sex and not about the person, but, hey, that's nature for you!


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo said:


> it isn't her frontal lobe that got his attention out of the gate.


It's the "lobes".


----------



## stumblealong

Jellybeans said:


> :lol:
> 
> LOL. Well SOMEONE, I can't remember who, but they said "Maybe if drunk." I just thought that was a scary-funny category. Like a Lindsay Lohan category or something. :rofl:


What i'm gathering from this comment is that when you have your 'beer goggles' on...the woman may appear more appealing to the man than she would if he were sober In other words you feel you've gone to bed with angela jolie and wake up with rosanne barr!


----------



## Amplexor

stumblealong said:


> What i'm gathering from this comment is that when you have your 'beer goggles' on...the woman may appear more appealing to the man than she would if he were sober In other words you feel you've gone to bed with angela jolie and wake up with rosanne barr!



YouTube - Scottish Drink Driving Test


----------



## stumblealong

Amplexor said:


> YouTube - Scottish Drink Driving Test


:rofl: EXACTLY!


----------



## ManDup

hippygirl39 said:


> Good point Deejo, you are probably right and it is the attraction thing that instantly draws you to someone - I think I was just briefly disillusioned that it all seemed to be about sex and not about the person, but, hey, that's nature for you!


Think of initial attraction as a prerequisite. Any man will learn to screen for crazy somewhere along the line, and then beyond that to look for a companion long-term who can communicate, think, etc. So we will date for a little while to find out if there is more to it than just initial attraction. But we won't even start dating if there isn't initial attraction to begin with. Or desperation, one.


----------



## frustr8dhubby

Jellybeans:

Would do: Kirsten Powers
Would NOT do: Rosie O'Donnell
Would if DRUNK: Janine Garafallo 

( I wonder who will figure out the relationship of that group?  )


----------



## frustr8dhubby

hippygirl,

Aye, have to agree with Deejo. I can be very turned on by a woman with a sharp wit or high intelligence, but you aren't going to get to know that passing them on the street.


----------



## luckyman

I believe it is easier for me to be faithful in body if I am also faithful in my mind. I am in control of what I chose to spend my mental energy on. I chose not to spend it on "who would I do" thoughts about women I meet. I am certain that there are many, many men out there who feel as I do. It is not so unusual to deny sexual thoughts about other women. 

When I was single, I was also careful about this because I found that I was sexualizing situations and people for no particular reason, other than mental entertainment. I have a personal, conscientious problem allowing myself to objectify others. I'm not saying that it's wrong...just wrong for me.

Having said that, I must also admit that I am not wanting anything sexually. My wife is my desire.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

luckyman said:


> I believe it is easier for me to be faithful in body if I am also faithful in my mind. I am in control of what I chose to spend my mental energy on. I chose not to spend it on "who would I do" thoughts about women I meet. I am certain that there are many, many men out there who feel as I do. It is not so unusual to deny sexual thoughts about other women.
> 
> When I was single, I was also careful about this because I found that I was sexualizing situations and people for no particular reason, other than mental entertainment. I have a personal, conscientious problem allowing myself to objectify others. I'm not saying that it's wrong...just wrong for me.


 One of my son's roommates at College is like this ^^^ Fantastic guy - He is single, moral & good looking. A few months ago he did something to prove how serious he was to clear his mind or "do the right thing" in this area. I was SO impressed, almost speakless. He canceled his FB account, deleted it -poof. Me & him, when it comes to communciation , a little dabate, we get into it -every time I visit. He knew I would be asking why he did this , he had over 400 friends on there! He trusted me enough to tell me THE TRUTH, with a very straight face..... 

He was struggling -being tempted to browse FB pics, College girls/ friends if they had anything even a little revealing on, bathing suit pics- then he would see them in person & be ashamed of himself for having those thoughts. He KNEW he had to stop but it was getting the best of him. He did not use the word "objectifying" to me personally but I know he felt that is what he was doing, he feels this is VERY WRONG and not at all acceptable, so he took the bull by the horns & deleted his facebook account. 

I just thought WOW- there is some darn WONDERFUL Amazing men out there!! My son is like him but not sure he would go to those lenghts. The point is -this is a real battle for men, even the BEST of men, even the most moral on the planet. I bet even MONKS struggle when you get down to it. So yeah, I guess if you want something bad enough -to rid your mind of it & determine to change for the GOOD . I don't think many have this kind of WILL POWER or would care to acquire it in reality though. I also worry if these types are "repressing" their sexuality to some degree. 

I admire them, they blow my mind - but if I was younger, I would have NO desire what so ever to marry someone THIS moral, I think it is overkill. My son feels fantasies are wrong. I think he is missing out. Just my opinion. 



MarriedWifeInLove said:


> If I see a good looking guy, I don't turn my head, look them up and down or follow them with my eyes when I'm in the company of my husband


Ha ha , I have on occasion. If I see a guy who looks like Kurt Cobain or Guns & Roses Axle Rose on the beach, I do look, I check him out up & down. My husband just looks at me, smiles & shakes his head. It is not that I would even want these guys. 1st of all, the kind that attracts me are probably on drugs, hardy partiers, might even have groupies or be total loosers. I would never want to marry that type. They may look HOT but it probably ends there. Most of them are half my age too , so it is really a joke. 

If I do this, I ALWAYS grab my husband and tell him he is the most amazing man, he understands a little sight seeing. At the end of the day/all through the day, he knows where my heart is. I boost his ego so much he would deflate if something happened to me. So it is a non issue for us, it is a passing fantasy. I even made him grow his hair longer for our wedding, he knows what I like visually. Most of my fantasies are him in our youth anyway . But I still look. I guess I am like a guy. 




stumblealong said:


> But know this, every woman wants to know or feel she is the apple of her man's eye!


 This IS truth - ABSOLUTELY :iagree: 



mommy22 said:


> That said, I do think it becomes much more difficult for men to control that thought process when there isn't regular married sex (and I mean several times a week-- not month or year!).


Amen to this, definitetly harder for men when they are suffering in the bedroom. 



Brennan said:


> "Sticking" with someone isn't a compliment to most women. The past tense of the word being stuck. I don't know many men who find that a compliment either.


 We need to let our spouses know we consistenly *CHOOSE* them -every day -over anyone else in this world. If we feel our spouses WANT us above what we see, THIS is what matters-in the heart. This is what makes the difference. "Stuck" was not a good word for this. CHOOSE is. 

Think about this-- what flattery is it to have a man who SHUTS his eyes off from every female who walks past-because his wife demands it. I once read a post on a christian forum about a man doing this , his wife was so distraught at the thought he notices another- I found it rather SAD the way he described his days, at work, at the supermarker, not even making eye contact with a waitress or casheir to honor his wife. Some things can be taken too far. In reality, he was not "free", living more living like a ROBOT.  

Isn't there something precious/very special about the man who has MANY choices (in his looking) but he still knows & wants to be with his wife at the end of the day, wantingly coming home to you -because this is what brings him lasting happiness, where he feels loved & comforted & the emotional uplift no other can bring. And he knows this in HIS HEART. Isn't this what we ultimately want- over the man shutting himself down to appease us. ??


----------



## Deejo

SimplyAmorous said:


> He was struggling -being tempted to browse FB pics, College girls/ friends if they had anything even a little revealing on, bathing suit pics- then he would see them in person & be ashamed of himself for having those thoughts. He KNEW he had to stop but it was getting the best of him. He did not use the word "objectifying" to me personally but I know he felt that is what he was doing, he feels this is VERY WRONG and not at all acceptable, so he took the bull by the horns & deleted his facebook account.
> 
> I just thought WOW- there is some darn WONDERFUL Amazing men out there!! My son is like him but not sure he would go to those lenghts. The point is -this is a real battle for men, even the BEST of men, even the most moral on the planet.


Ironically ... it is that kind of self control and inner strength that will make women want to get into HIS pants ...


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove

Boogsie said:


> Ahhh, this old thing. I have this problem with my wife as well. I will say something and she hears something else. I say what I mean. If I say "Look what I could chase, but I stick with you." Then I mean, "Look what I could chase, but I stick with you."
> 
> How is it your husbands problem if you hear something different than what he says?
> 
> When my wife asks me what is wrong and I tell her, "Erm, it has been three months since we had sex and I'm getting antsy."
> 
> She hears, "You are a bad wife and everything that is wrong in this house is your fault."
> 
> I'm direct, honest, and don't pull punches. If she asks a question, she gets the answer. It is NOT my problem if she interprets it differently than said.
> 
> The opposite is also true. If she says something, I take her for exactly what she says. I will ask, "Do you need a hand with that?" She will say no, so I go about my business. Only to be told later that, "Couldn't you see me struggling? Any decent person would have given me a hand." Hey, I asked, and you said no, NOT MY PROBLEM.


Communication involves "two" people, not just one.

Successful communication means the that receiver "hears" exactly what you are trying to say.

That means - if she isn't "hearing" you properly and her interpretation is different, then you have the responsibility to make sure what you say is what is received.

Basic communication techniques - they taught it to us in the military.

Since you know she is sensitive to how you communicate with her, then you need to switch it up and make sure she "receives" your message the way you intended it. If she doesn't, then the breakdown in communication is shared - it belongs to you and her, not just HER.


----------



## Jellybeans

frustr8dhubby said:


> Jellybeans:
> 
> Would do: Kirsten Powers
> Would NOT do: Rosie O'Donnell
> Would if DRUNK: Janine Garafallo
> 
> ( I wonder who will figure out the relationship of that group?  )


Comedians? I hav eno idea who Kirsten Powers is though.

Well Idk if it's a "drunk category" but there are celebrities I'd totally make out with and not tell a soul about it. LOL.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Deejo said:


> Ironically ... it is that kind of self control and inner strength that will make women want to get into HIS pants ...


Yes I suppose. But these guys think it is wrong to even have a "lustful thought" even for a girlfriend /fiance. My son has said it would be so amazingy to wait till his wedding day for his 1st kiss. That is insanity!! I told him if his dad was like that, I would have dumped him. Can't wait to see how that silly thought will go down the drain after he snags this girl he wants. 

This roommate of his was happy to tell me one day, knowing I would appreciate this story -- some lady was thumbing a ride, and he picked her up, shortly after to realize she wanted a different kind of ride, not getting off at the stop but giving him a sensual eye. I fell over laughing, just imaging this scene, knowing him! :rofl: Of all the men to get in the car with, oh how funny, I can't remember if he told her about Jesus but I know he did tell her he was saving himself for his future bride. I doubt she'll forget him, he is a special one.


----------



## Runs like Dog

Janeane Garofalo? She's apparently a huge Scientologist on the QT now. Never stick your **** in crazy, they say.


----------



## Jellybeans

LOL, Runs. Scienos are crazy!


----------



## frustr8dhubby

Actually they are all flaming liberals! 

Now I have to go hide from Brennan.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

frustr8dhubby said:


> Actually they are all flaming liberals!
> 
> Now I have to go hide from Brennan.


You can run but you cannot hide.


----------



## ManDup

SimplyAmorous said:


> One of my son's roommates at College is like this ^^^ Fantastic guy - He is single, moral & good looking.


So, just like that, as in, "moral except for the lying part." Men who say they don't sort women are lying.



SimplyAmorous said:


> He was struggling -being tempted to browse FB pics, College girls/ friends if they had anything even a little revealing on, bathing suit pics- then he would see them in person & be ashamed of himself for having those thoughts.


Yup, he looks and sorts.



SimplyAmorous said:


> So yeah, I guess if you want something bad enough -to rid your mind of it & determine to change for the GOOD . I don't think many have this kind of WILL POWER or would care to acquire it in reality though. I also worry if these types are "repressing" their sexuality to some degree.
> 
> I admire them, they blow my mind - but if I was younger, I would have NO desire what so ever to marry someone THIS moral, I think it is overkill. My son feels fantasies are wrong. I think he is missing out. Just my opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> Ha ha , I have on occasion. If I see a guy who looks like Kurt Cobain or Guns & Roses Axle Rose on the beach, I do look, I check him out up & down. My husband just looks at me, smiles & shakes his head. It is not that I would even want these guys. 1st of all, the kind that attracts me are probably on drugs, hardy partiers, might even have groupies or be total loosers. I would never want to marry that type. They may look HOT but it probably ends there. Most of them are half my age too , so it is really a joke.
> 
> If I do this, I ALWAYS grab my husband and tell him he is the most amazing man, he understands a little sight seeing. At the end of the day/all through the day, he knows where my heart is. I boost his ego so much he would deflate if something happened to me. So it is a non issue for us, it is a passing fantasy. I even made him grow his hair longer for our wedding, he knows what I like visually. Most of my fantasies are him in our youth anyway . But I still look. I guess I am like a guy.


It's not natural, healthy, or admirable to pretend we don't, or lie about, doing this, so I don't know why you admire it in the example you gave. Even with all his extreme measures, he's not being successful at dodging it, unless he is also walking around the world with blindfold on.




SimplyAmorous said:


> We need to let our spouses know we consistenly *CHOOSE* them -every day -over anyone else in this world. If we feel our spouses WANT us above what we see, THIS is what matters-in the heart. This is what makes the difference. "Stuck" was not a good word for this. CHOOSE is.


Exactly the reason I also used the word CHOOSE in my original post. Way too much has been read into the word stick (NOT STUCK!).



SimplyAmorous said:


> Think about this-- what flattery is it to have a man who SHUTS his eyes off from every female who walks past-because his wife demands it. I once read a post on a christian forum about a man doing this , his wife was so distraught at the thought he notices another- I found it rather SAD the way he described his days, at work, at the supermarker, not even making eye contact with a waitress or casheir to honor his wife. Some things can be taken too far. In reality, he was not "free", living more living like a ROBOT.
> 
> Isn't there something precious/very special about the man who has MANY choices (in his looking) but he still knows & wants to be with his wife at the end of the day, wantingly coming home to you -because this is what brings him lasting happiness, where he feels loved & comforted & the emotional uplift no other can bring. And he knows this in HIS HEART. Isn't this what we ultimately want- over the man shutting himself down to appease us. ??


Exactly. Lead us into temptation. It's like the central theme of A Clockwork Orange, where the "bad guy" is brainwashed into not liking violence, rather than actually reformed. Is he free, or just whipped?


----------



## ManDup

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Communication involves "two" people, not just one.
> 
> Successful communication means the that receiver "hears" exactly what you are trying to say.
> 
> That means - if she isn't "hearing" you properly and her interpretation is different, then you have the responsibility to make sure what you say is what is received.
> 
> Basic communication techniques - they taught it to us in the military.
> 
> Since you know she is sensitive to how you communicate with her, then you need to switch it up and make sure she "receives" your message the way you intended it. If she doesn't, then the breakdown in communication is shared - it belongs to you and her, not just HER.


Ok, but remember, the original idea was something you are supposed to THINK when you see your husband DO this. You can think whatever suits you, fer cryin' out loud.


----------



## ManDup

luckyman said:


> I believe it is easier for me to be faithful in body if I am also faithful in my mind. I am in control of what I chose to spend my mental energy on. I chose not to spend it on "who would I do" thoughts about women I meet. I am certain that there are many, many men out there who feel as I do. It is not so unusual to *deny sexual thoughts* about other women.


Busted.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

ManDup: 

I think you are completely misunderstanding my posts. In no way would that roommate or my son deny the "sorting". I had that talk with my son days ago & posted what he said, he admits it is automatic- just like everyone else on here. 

I ADMIRE the fact they are choosing to NOT INDULGE. Well accually from my standpoint, I think it is rather silly since they are single and free, I feel they might as well enjoy themselves. BUt they feel it is wrong to LUST over women. Also I know they feel it is a time waster too - where they could be doing something more productive, helping someone. They are doing what they can to remove added Temptation , FB was that, I guess. I know they have anti-porn software on their laptops. 

I agree with you totally, it is impossible to NOT do this as a guy and anyone who says so is lying.


----------



## ManDup

SimplyAmorous said:


> ManDup:
> 
> I think you are completely misunderstanding my posts. In no way would that roommate or my son deny the "sorting". I had that talk with my son days ago & posted what he said, he admits it is automatic- just like everyone else on here.
> 
> I ADMIRE the fact they are choosing to NOT INDULGE. Well accually from my standpoint, I think it is rather silly since they are single and free, I feel they might as well enjoy themselves. BUt they feel it is wrong to LUST over women. Also I know they feel it is a time waster too - where they could be doing something more productive, helping someone. They are doing what they can to remove added Temptation , FB was that, I guess. I know they have anti-porn software on their laptops.
> 
> I agree with you totally, it is impossible to NOT do this as a guy and anyone who says so is lying.


Gotcha. My bad. Yeah, my son leans toward this kind of over-the-top do-gooderness too. I can't understand it :scratchhead:


----------



## SimplyAmorous

ManDup said:


> Gotcha. My bad. Yeah, my son leans toward this kind of over-the-top do-gooderness too. I can't understand it :scratchhead:


So you are like me, your children think YOU are currupt ? I have not found too many in my shoes. It is kind of a nice problem to have in comparison to some kids these days on drugs, getting drunk & drama relationships from hell. 

BUt yeah, He is over the top. I know it is the influence of many Christian Youth programs/friendships - his admiration for those in his life & their example. He is all into this "courting" thing instead of dating. I feel he may regret this someday, but it is HIS life to live. At least he is happy. When I was religious, I had a stick up my butt about it. MY son is not following in my footsteps there, so maybe he will be FINE and show me a thing or 2.


----------



## Deejo

SimplyAmorous said:


> I ADMIRE the fact they are choosing to NOT INDULGE. Well accually from my standpoint, I think it is rather silly since they are single and free, I feel they might as well enjoy themselves. BUt they feel it is wrong to LUST over women. Also I know they feel it is a time waster too - where they could be doing something more productive, helping someone. They are doing what they can to remove added Temptation , FB was that, I guess. I know they have anti-porn software on their laptops.


Ahhh ... misspent youth ...

I shudder to think of the scenario in which your son meets 'the girl of his dreams', and she dumps him because of his sense of virtue to go do some tongue wrestling, or bumping of uglies with your average teen/twenty-something guy.

Although ... there is also a lot to be learned from having your heart broken. I'm serious about that bit.

But it is interesting that they believe they objectify simply by feeling what they should be feeling ...


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo said:


> But it is interesting that they believe they objectify simply by feeling what they should be feeling ...


Isn't lusting after women/catagorizing/etc.the pure definition of objectify? I get biology, I also get that it is behavior for both young and old. Let's not kid ourselves though, it is still objectification in it's purest form. Sizing up a woman for her sexual merits is literally the definition of sexual objectification, yet so many men deny this. It sounds like you feel the two are separate. "Feeling what they should be feeling" vs. "believe they objectify". Isn't it one and the same? 
I think both genders objectify. I think women do it when sizing up dating/marriage material and it often ends there, while men do it their entire lives, regardless of relationship status.


----------



## Runs like Dog

You all think too much.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Runs like Dog said:


> You all think too much.


How?


----------



## michzz

Brennan said:


> I think both genders objectify. I think women do it when sizing up dating/marriage material and it often ends there, while men do it their entire lives, regardless of relationship status.


This is where you lost me. My experience has not matched this, that women stop objectifying after a ring is on their finger.

Some of both genders do this some don't.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Deejo said:


> Ahhh ... misspent youth ...
> 
> I shudder to think of the scenario in which your son meets 'the girl of his dreams', and she dumps him because of his sense of virtue to go do some tongue wrestling, or bumping of uglies with your average teen/twenty-something guy.


He already found the girl of his dreams, has been waiting for her to release him from the "Friend Zone" for over a year & a half now. He did let her know how he felt, and she didnt push him away. 

She is as PURE as the driven snow, no chance of this one taking up with some secular dude - He'd throw her back. It is all very sweet really. She IS getting closer to him, wants him to teach her guitar now, they sing together, just did a play together, they run together. I am even beginning to see hope there. He is head over heels, but reigns his feelings in to not scare her away. They both believe in being "friends 1st."

I might be attenting a pure Virginish wedding someday-with them both exchanging thier "silver rings". How rare it is.


----------



## Deejo

Brennan said:


> Isn't lusting after women/catagorizing/etc.the pure definition of objectify? I get biology, I also get that it is behavior for both young and old. Let's not kid ourselves though, it is still objectification in it's purest form. Sizing up a woman for her sexual merits is literally the definition of sexual objectification, yet so many men deny this. It sounds like you feel the two are separate. "Feeling what they should be feeling" vs. "believe they objectify". Isn't it one and the same?
> I think both genders objectify. I think women do it when sizing up dating/marriage material and it often ends there, while men do it their entire lives, regardless of relationship status.


If you want to categorize attraction or it's lack as objectification, I don't suppose I can argue with you.

But I do not see them as the same. I don't even see the checklist as objectifying. It's passive ... as I have tried to stress. 

To me, thereby if a man acknowledges it and internally admonishes himself for the passive thought ... he has made it an active thought, and given it more attention than it warranted.

Am I understanding you correctly, Brennan? It appears you see this as a form of betrayal?


----------



## Deejo

SimplyAmorous said:


> He already found the girl of his dreams, has been waiting for her to release him from the "Friend Zone" for over a year & a half now. He did let her know how he felt, and she didnt push him away.
> 
> She is as PURE as the driven snow, no chance of this one taking up with some secular dude - He'd throw her back. It is all very sweet really. She IS getting closer to him, wants him to teach her guitar now, they sing together, just did a play together, they run together. I am even beginning to see hope there. He is head over heels, but reigns his feelings in to not scare her away. They both believe in being "friends 1st."
> 
> I might be attenting a pure Virginish wedding someday-with them both exchanging thier "silver rings". How rare it is.


I may be old and cynical, but I'm still a sucker for a happy ending. Hope for nothing but good things for the both of them.


----------



## Syrum

Deejo said:


> If you want to categorize attraction or it's lack as objectification, I don't suppose I can argue with you.
> 
> But I do not see them as the same. I don't even see the checklist as objectifying. It's passive ... as I have tried to stress.
> 
> To me, thereby if a man acknowledges it and internally admonishes himself for the passive thought ... he has made it an active thought, and given it more attention than it warranted.
> 
> Am I understanding you correctly, Brennan? It appears you see this as a form of betrayal?


I disagree that it's passive, I believe that men have just been conditioned and told themselves that it's fine, so it becomes second nature. But don't believe for a second it's passive and that they can't stop doing it.

It is absolutely objectification and I think it effects the way most men treat every single woman they meet.


----------



## Deejo

Syrum said:


> I disagree that it's passive, I believe that me have just been conditioned and told themselves that it's fine, so it becomes second nature. But don't believe for a second it's passive and that they can't stop doing it.
> 
> It is absolutely objectification and I think it effects the way most men treat every single woman they meet.


That is unfortunate. Also think you have a Freudian typo in there ...


----------



## Runs like Dog

Brennan said:


> How?


259 posts worth. Geez how hard is this to understand? We like women. ALL women. We like looking at them, smelling them, kissing them, touching them. We like watching them sit, stand, walk, brush their hair, staring into space. Young, old, blond, brunette, redhead, curvy, skinny, blue eye, green, brown, hazel, black, any ethnicity.


----------



## Deejo

Runs like Dog said:


> 259 posts worth. Geez how hard is this to understand? We like women. ALL women. We like looking at them, smelling them, kissing them, touching them. We like watching them sit, stand, walk, brush their hair, staring into space. Young, old, blond, brunette, redhead, curvy, skinny, blue eye, green, brown, hazel, black, any ethnicity.


:woohoo:


----------



## okeydokie

Runs like Dog said:


> 259 posts worth. Geez how hard is this to understand? We like women. ALL women. We like looking at them, smelling them, kissing them, touching them. We like watching them sit, stand, walk, brush their hair, staring into space. Young, old, blond, brunette, redhead, curvy, skinny, blue eye, green, brown, hazel, black, any ethnicity.


and whether they want to admit it or not, they like men doing all that, especially when they flash themselves or dress sexy


----------



## sisters359

There is a huge difference between the automatic "yes/no/maybe" and the habit of indulging in the fantasy when the "yes" bell has rung. 

I've actually watched other people as a beautiful woman or gorgeous guy walks by, just to see their reactions. It is rare to see anyone actually stare or leer. People in general seem to be cued into social standards enough not to cross the line into the "fantasy indulgence" realm.


----------



## Conrad

Runs like Dog said:


> 259 posts worth. Geez how hard is this to understand? We like women. ALL women. We like looking at them, smelling them, kissing them, touching them. We like watching them sit, stand, walk, brush their hair, staring into space. Young, old, blond, brunette, redhead, curvy, skinny, blue eye, green, brown, hazel, black, any ethnicity.


It's almost impossible imagining this not to be true.

I wonder if women would like the world they would live in if it were not true?


----------



## SimplyAmorous

okeydokie said:


> and whether they want to admit it or not, they like men doing all that, especially when they flash themselves or dress sexy


Ha Ha I'll admit it , I like it ! If I dress to the hilt and notice some guy looking at me I surely know what he hell I am doing, and it IS flattering. I dont understand women at all.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

mommy22 said:


> This is so sweet and admirable. It says something about your son's character and integrity that he's willing to go against the grain and stand by his convictions despite societal views. He sounds like an upstanding guy. You must be so proud. I would be. It sounds like you've done a good job, SA. It says something when people aren't afraid to stand by their belief systems despite ridicule. I wish them the best!!!


Thank you Mommy, I really AM proud, you have no idea. He inspires me many times. He literally ENJOYS going agiainst the grain. Sometimes I think his form of rebellion is to be "good". We disagree on a variety of spiritual things, lots of debate in our household but he wouldn't want it any other way, we learn from each other. Fantastic relationship. He even posted on here once, I should bring him back, tell him we are talking about him! Ha ha  

I told him this place would be good for him, he is taking Psychology in College, wants to be a Therapist or a Youth Paster. Can you imagine, and here his mom is playing a wannabe Sex Therapist online. We talk about it ALL. Our house is very interesting!


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove

Runs like Dog said:


> 259 posts worth. Geez how hard is this to understand? We like women. ALL women. We like looking at them, smelling them, kissing them, touching them. We like watching them sit, stand, walk, brush their hair, staring into space. Young, old, blond, brunette, redhead, curvy, skinny, blue eye, green, brown, hazel, black, any ethnicity.


And we LIKE men too.

Difference being - most women don't look at one and put them in one of the "three categories." In OTW, we don't let what is between our legs rule our head.

I think what some of us women (mainly speaking for me), want in a man is a man who is truly committed - not only through marriage but through his heart and mind.

If you married ME, I should be enough for you - you're enough for me, why does it have to be different just because you're a man - it doesn't - it's a choice, just like everything else.

And when you make it obvious - by oogling and staring and following other women with your eyes, when with us - you don't have to say a word - your actions say it all - I'm not good enough - I'll never be skinny enough, young enough, pretty enough, or my body will never be perky enough.

Maybe men need to put the shoe on the other foot and see how it "feels" to feel like you'll never be good enough. It's an empty, shallow feeling - I know it well.


----------



## Wrench

Runs like Dog said:


> 259 posts worth. Geez how hard is this to understand? We like women. ALL women. We like looking at them, smelling them, kissing them, touching them. We like watching them sit, stand, walk, brush their hair, staring into space. Young, old, blond, brunette, redhead, curvy, skinny, blue eye, green, brown, hazel, black, any ethnicity.


High 5 :smthumbup:


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Yeah, yeah. Now read MWIL's last post.


----------



## MGirl

SimplyAmorous said:


> Ha Ha I'll admit it , I like it ! If I dress to the hilt and notice some guy looking at me I surely know what he hell I am doing, and it IS flattering. I dont understand women at all.


I'll admit it too! Seriously, it's an ego boost to know you're getting attention. Why else would we dress the way we do? I mean, unless you're always in public wearing sweatpants and baggy shirts.

I don't know, I just don't take it personally if I catch my husband checking out another woman occasionally. Well, maybe that's because I'm usually checking her out too, though...


----------



## stumblealong

mommy22 said:


> Get this... Funny thing happened this morning. Took my kid to the orthodontist (single male) and I saw him do the quick scan of me. I thought to myself "You're sooo doing the checklist right now!" Never knew about the checklist until this thread. I just thought there were automatic thoughts of sex or no looking at all. I had the biggest urge to call him out on it. He he.


Funny thing about this thread! I do that now too. I see a guy checking me out and I wonder where I fell on the checklist! Gee, I sure hope I made the "doable" category


----------



## Deejo

mommy22 said:


> Get this... Funny thing happened this morning. Took my kid to the orthodontist (single male) and I saw him do the quick scan of me. I thought to myself "You're sooo doing the checklist right now!" Never knew about the checklist until this thread. I just thought there were automatic thoughts of sex or no looking at all. I had the biggest urge to call him out on it. He he.


That would be friggin' hysterical.

"So? Am I a yes, no, maybe, or only if drunk?"

And women do have the checklist, it just moves much, much, slower than the male checklist.

My opinion is that a woman generally requires some kind of interaction to move to 'yes, no, maybe'.

I would have to look back through the thread to see who made the comment, but one of the ladies summed it up: "Can I picture myself naked with this guy?"

I believe that happens on the first date, and you either increase or decrease the likelihood from there.


----------



## stumblealong

Next time I see a guy so obviously checking me out, i think i will say "Well, am I a yes, no, or maybe?" I bet i might make someone blush


----------



## Halien

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> And we LIKE men too.
> 
> Difference being - most women don't look at one and put them in one of the "three categories." In OTW, we don't let what is between our legs rule our head.
> 
> I think what some of us women (mainly speaking for me), want in a man is a man who is truly committed - not only through marriage but through his heart and mind.
> 
> If you married ME, I should be enough for you - you're enough for me, why does it have to be different just because you're a man - it doesn't - it's a choice, just like everything else.
> 
> And when you make it obvious - by oogling and staring and following other women with your eyes, when with us - you don't have to say a word - your actions say it all - I'm not good enough - I'll never be skinny enough, young enough, pretty enough, or my body will never be perky enough.
> 
> Maybe men need to put the shoe on the other foot and see how it "feels" to feel like you'll never be good enough. It's an empty, shallow feeling - I know it well.


Hopefully, this isn't a mood killer, but believe it or not, there are a few men out there who do know what if feels like. I'll admit that I don't feel the societal pressure that many women experience, though.

I really do not want to be critical of my soon to be ex, but I tried to make her feel secure. I was very vocal in telling her that she was the only woman I saw in a crowded room. I'm not sure if its part of the bipolar complex, but she is very visual concerning men. In the early days, she would sometimes admit that she probably couldn't say no to a come-on from an attractive man. In fact, boundaries were sometimes tenuous, but she was never flirty. Just didn't know when to tell a guy to stop. She even joked that the only reason she dated me was because of my physique. And yes, I get compared often. So far, I usually lose out when the guy is over six foot, because I'm slightly under. I know where I stand in the arms, chest and butt compared to the men she knows. She learned to avoid these comments, but she was adamant that she could no longer find me attractive if my hair thinned. Fortunately, it never did. 

My older brother resents the fact that we didn't visit him often. I'm not at all insecure, but I'm not stupid either. My wife finds him very attractive, and has let her thoughts slip a little too much for my comfort.

I think that maybe part of it was a family thing. Her sister used to get a big kick out of flashing her robe open (nude underneath) when coming out of the shower, or offering me a sip when she was nursing, even though I told my wife every time. My wife just avoided the topic.


----------



## stumblealong

Years ago I had a friend that would openly compare her bf with other men. Ex- "Why can't you have an @ss like that"... ect. I felt bad for him just as I do when men do this to their women. So wrong and disrespectful. 

I can honestly say that I have never compared my man's physique to other men's. Not even just in my mind. I don't think, 'I wish my man had a butt, hair, arms, ect. like his.' That just doesn't come into play. But i have compared the way he treats me as compared to how some other men treat their women. As in, he doesn't treat me THAT bad, or I wish he treated me more like that. 

I think most women would agree, that we know men do the checking out thing, but we prefer NOT to see it! When he is with me, I should be the only one he is checking out, believe me, he is lucky to have me and he should show that respect!


----------



## themrs

mommy22 said:


> Deejo, you may think I'm lying but I honestly don't have a checklist. I guess I've never thought about it. I do notice when a man is attractive but I also notice attractive women. I guess because of my history with training, I notice whether people work out. I think about proportional physiques. I watch behavior too. I spot cheaters. I decide wether couples are happy. I decide whether people are arrogant. I think stuff like "I'll bet that guy has a porn addiction" or "She probably spends every red cent that comes into her household on shoes". "She seems like a good mom" or "He's a dedicated husband". I love analyzing human behavior. I wish I could say I thought about sex more but I really don't. I don't think I have a huge drive compared to some. I have to work myself up for such things.


Ditto to this. This is what I do as well. I can honestly say that I have never looked at a man and thought about having sex with him other than a man I was involved with our wanted to be involved with. 

I understand what the men are saying in this thread. It's a biological thing and we women should just accept it. It just doesn't seem like men are so lenient when it comes to the biology of women and the things that we "just can't help".


----------



## stumblealong

mommy22 said:


> Deejo, you may think I'm lying but I honestly don't have a checklist. I guess I've never thought about it. I do notice when a man is attractive but I also notice attractive women.


I do not have a checklist either. I too notice attractive men, but my first thoughts aren't whether he is 'yes, no, maybe if drunk.' Or when you see an attractive couple, and wonder what their lives are like, how he treats her, ect. Mommy22, you hit the nail on the head on how I 'judge' people too.


----------



## stumblealong

I asked a male friend about this, his reply "Women are more pure and virtuous than us dirty minded men." Hmmmm...my mind can go to some pretty in the gutter places, I guess those thoughts just don't fall on random men i see on the street. I certainly would not call my mind pure


----------



## MGirl

themrs said:


> It just doesn't seem like men are so lenient when it comes to the biology of women and the things that we "just can't help".


Like what? Just curious.


----------



## stumblealong

MGirl said:


> Like what? Just curious.


just takin a guess. Maybe when it is that time a month and we become more emotional. I know my man looks at me like i'm an alien or something when i start to bawl over something stupid (like a commercial ) or when the biotch comes through during that time of month!


----------



## stumblealong

mommy22 said:


> I'm not proud of the fact. I try to stop myself when I think critical thoughts.


Ahhh...critical thoughts. Well, i know what you are saying. But it is a bit entertaining when you see people out and about doing their thing. Like a woman walking by a whole row of windows checking HERSELF out, looking at her booty, her profile (see men we check ourselves out enough for all of ya!) I just think it is fun to wonder what they are thinking. "look at my big butt, or I have one fine form!" I just like putting words to what people are doing. Watching a couple argue, and I will make up a whole scenario to what they are arguing about. I know i need to get a life!


----------



## themrs

MGirl said:


> Like what? Just curious.


I just mean you rarely hear anyone say, "Girls will be girls." It doesn't seem to me that women get as much slack as men when it comes to biology.


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove

Halien said:


> Hopefully, this isn't a mood killer, but believe it or not, there are a few men out there who do know what if feels like. I'll admit that I don't feel the societal pressure that many women experience, though.
> 
> I really do not want to be critical of my soon to be ex, but I tried to make her feel secure. I was very vocal in telling her that she was the only woman I saw in a crowded room. I'm not sure if its part of the bipolar complex, but she is very visual concerning men. In the early days, she would sometimes admit that she probably couldn't say no to a come-on from an attractive man. In fact, boundaries were sometimes tenuous, but she was never flirty. Just didn't know when to tell a guy to stop. She even joked that the only reason she dated me was because of my physique. And yes, I get compared often. So far, I usually lose out when the guy is over six foot, because I'm slightly under. I know where I stand in the arms, chest and butt compared to the men she knows. She learned to avoid these comments, but she was adamant that she could no longer find me attractive if my hair thinned. Fortunately, it never did.
> 
> My older brother resents the fact that we didn't visit him often. I'm not at all insecure, but I'm not stupid either. My wife finds him very attractive, and has let her thoughts slip a little too much for my comfort.
> 
> I think that maybe part of it was a family thing. Her sister used to get a big kick out of flashing her robe open (nude underneath) when coming out of the shower, or offering me a sip when she was nursing, even though I told my wife every time. My wife just avoided the topic.


And I think that's part of the problem - a lot of men consider it a "societal" thing - that's just another excuse for "it's not my fault."

It's all about choices.

I could choose to screw around on my husband, especially with the ED, withholding sex, cruising porn, etc. I would have every right and no one at this point would blame me.

But "I" "choose" to stay true to my marriage vows and work on the issues instead of taking the easy way out.

A lot of men choose the easy way and then blame it on society, marketing, TV, anything but pointing the finger directly where it belongs - on THEM.


----------



## themrs

stumblealong said:


> just takin a guess. Maybe when it is that time a month and we become more emotional. I know my man looks at me like i'm an alien or something when i start to bawl over something stupid (like a commercial ) or when the biotch comes through during that time of month!


It doesn't have to be that time of the month for me, I'm just emotional. I can bawl over a commercial at any time! LOL! I'm a woman and the estrogen makes me that way. It burns me up when a woman is being a biotch and a man will have a snide remark about her being on her period or something. As if that is the only time a woman has the liberty to become hormonal, but men get the license to be hormonal all the time - it's just a differnet hormone.


----------



## themrs

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> And I think that's part of the problem - a lot of men consider it a "societal" thing - that's just another excuse for "it's not my fault."
> 
> It's all about choices.
> 
> I could choose to screw around on my husband, especially with the ED, withholding sex, cruising porn, etc. I would have every right and no one at this point would blame me.
> 
> But "I" "choose" to stay true to my marriage vows and work on the issues instead of taking the easy way out.
> 
> A lot of men choose the easy way and then blame it on society, marketing, TV, anything but pointing the finger directly where it belongs - on THEM.


I thought the men in the thread leaned more toward it being a biological thing as opposed to societal. 

The jist of what the men were saying (from my POV) was that they can not control their thoughts because they are purely rooted in biology, but they can control their actions - ie not gawking at women when their wife/girlfriend is present. That's the best they can do.


----------



## stumblealong

themrs said:


> It doesn't have to be that time of the month for me, I'm just emotional. I can bawl over a commercial at any time! LOL! I'm a woman and the estrogen makes me that way. It burns me up when a woman is being a biotch and a man will have a snide remark about her being on her period or something. As if that is the only time a woman has the liberty to become hormonal, but men get the license to be hormonal all the time - *it's just a differnet hormone*.


For sure!


----------



## MGirl

themrs said:


> It doesn't have to be that time of the month for me, I'm just emotional. I can bawl over a commercial at any time! LOL! I'm a woman and the estrogen makes me that way. It burns me up when a woman is being a biotch and a man will have a snide remark about her being on her period or something. As if that is the only time a woman has the liberty to become hormonal, but men get the license to be hormonal all the time - it's just a differnet hormone.


I guess I'm just lucky...my husband gives me all sorts of slack. He's okay with me being emotional often. He gets it. 

I guess the reason I don't care if I catch him checking another woman out is that, at the end of the day, he only has eyes for me and really loves me. I've never doubted it. And I don't feel insecure or threatened by the fact that he can appreciate beautiful women on occasion. Sometimes I'll test him and teasingly ask if he'd rather have her than me. But he'll always turn to me and say, "I'd choose you again in a heartbeat." And he means it. He is the most committed person I know, if you knew him you'd understand why I don't feel threatened. 

But I think I can understand how women are upset about the thought that their husbands may be thinking about other women. I'm just hesitant to judge whether it's biological, societal, or something men can even really completely control. Yes, men can control whether to ogle or stare. But to completely suppress instantaneous, passing thoughts? Until I'm given the chance to crawl inside a man's brain and see for myself, I choose not to judge. Just my personal thoughts. I realize not everyone else will agree


----------



## themrs

MGirl - I don't care much if my husband thinks about other women either. I mean, just because we said "I do" doesn't mean he became less of a man. If that is what men do, that's what they do and I'm not mad at that. As a matter of fact, I know he oogles at Sophia Vergara and is the sole reason for him tuning into Modern Family every Wednesday night religiously. I think it's kind of cute.

However, I do understand what the women here are saying. I can understand why someone would feel "less than" or "never good enough" if the man (or woman) in their life frequently checked out members of the opposite sex. I think the insecurity is compounded if the woman doesn't feel attractive and if the man doesn't do things that make her feel like she is the only woman for him even if he looks at other women.

It reminds me of what my mom used to say to me when I was a girl, "You're my favorite daughter" to which I would reply, "I'm your only daughter!" Then she would say, "If I had a million, you'd still be my favorite." It's unfortunate that many women do not feel like their husband's favorite and in fact feel like he would rather have one of the many women he admires and puts into categories in his head.


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove

themrs said:


> I thought the men in the thread leaned more toward it being a biological thing as opposed to societal.
> 
> The jist of what the men were saying (from my POV) was that they can not control their thoughts because they are purely rooted in biology, but they can control their actions - ie not gawking at women when their wife/girlfriend is present. That's the best they can do.


Yes they have mentioned biological, but the post I was responding to mentioned societal.

And I don't believe it's rooted in biology at all. You can control your thoughts as much as you control your actions - it's a matter of choice. 

I can choose to have good thoughts/bad thoughts, I can choose to IGNORE thoughts I do have that will hurt someone else.

I have testosterone in my biological makeup also, and the fact that I suffer from PCOS makes my testosterone higher than the average normal woman who does not suffer from it.

But - I still don't gawk at men and make my husband feel uncomfortable when he's in my presence - period - I choose to not exhibit this behavior.

It's always about choices - always.


----------



## MGirl

themrs said:


> MGirl - I don't care much if my husband thinks about other women either. I mean, just because we said "I do" doesn't mean he became less of a man. If that is what men do, that's what they do and I'm not mad at that. As a matter of fact, I know he oogles at Sophia Vergara and is the sole reason for him tuning into Modern Family every Wednesday night religiously. I think it's kind of cute.
> 
> However, I do understand what the women here are saying. I can understand why someone would feel "less than" or "never good enough" if the man (or woman) in their life frequently checked out members of the opposite sex. I think the insecurity is compounded if the woman doesn't feel attractive and if the man doesn't do things that make her feel like she is the only woman for him even if he looks at other women.
> 
> It reminds me of what my mom used to say to me when I was a girl, "You're my favorite daughter" to which I would reply, "I'm your only daughter!" Then she would say, "If I had a million, you'd still be my favorite." It's unfortunate that many women do not feel like their husband's favorite and in fact feel like he would rather have one of the many women he admires and puts into categories in his head.


Well said. And maybe I'm just fortunate, because my husband always backs up his "I'd choose you again in a heartbeat" statement with actions. He really makes me feel like I'm his number one. He always makes me feel attractive and special, so there isn't much room for jealousy on my part. He frequently comes home from work, telling me about his co-workers smack talking about how annoying and naggy their wives are and how grateful he is that I'm a thousand miles away from being that kind of wife. He tells me he is luckiest husband alive 

I would definitely be devastated if he made feel as if I'm not "good enough" for him, or if he ogled other women or didn't give me attention. I really feel for the women whose husbands do treat them this way.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

MGirl said:


> Like what? Just curious.


Poking holes in condoms to ensure as many children as is our biological imperative. Pretty sure the men here would go nuts if a woman admitted to doing that. Come on now, it IS our biological urge. Somehow the bio thing tends to only swing one way excuse wise.


----------



## themrs

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Yes they have mentioned biological, but the post I was responding to mentioned societal.
> 
> And I don't believe it's rooted in biology at all. You can control your thoughts as much as you control your actions - it's a matter of choice.
> 
> I can choose to have good thoughts/bad thoughts, I can choose to IGNORE thoughts I do have that will hurt someone else.
> 
> I have testosterone in my biological makeup also, and the fact that I suffer from PCOS makes my testosterone higher than the average normal woman who does not suffer from it.
> 
> But - I still don't gawk at men and make my husband feel uncomfortable when he's in my presence - period - I choose to not exhibit this behavior.
> 
> It's always about choices - always.


I absolutely agree with you. I think everything in life is a choice, even the things we think about. However, I must admit biology makes it harder for me to make some choices and easier for me to make others. I'm not saying that as an excuse, but it is real. 

Controlling your thoughts is not the easiest thing in the world, especially if your brain is wired that way. It can be done, but it is very difficult.


----------



## themrs

Brennan said:


> Poking holes in condoms to ensure as many children as is our biological imperative. Pretty sure the men here would go nuts if a woman admitted to doing that. Come on now, it IS our biological urge. Somehow the bio thing tends to only swing one way excuse wise.


LOL! Good one.


----------



## Trenton

I loooove babies! Wish I had the money and time to have fifteen more.

Brennan, you have a great and valid point!


----------



## MGirl

Sometimes I really cannot relate to you ladies. Urges to poke holes in condoms? Should I be questioning whether or not I am woman? 

Wait a second...let me go check...


----------



## Trenton

MGirl said:


> Sometimes I really cannot relate to you ladies. Urges to poke holes in condoms? Should I be questioning whether or not I am woman?
> 
> Wait a second...let me go check...


Condoms? What condoms? :rofl:

I think our common sense and brain capacity allows us the know how to ignore or refuse to indulge in our biological urges. 

Why Brennan's point is so awesome!


----------



## themrs

Trenton said:


> I loooove babies! Wish I had the money and time to have fifteen more.
> 
> Brennan, you have a great and valid point!




So if she is done having children, it would seem like it would be harder for a woman to want to have sex - biologically speaking of course. We just can't help it.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

mommy22 said:


> I spot cheaters. I decide wether couples are happy. I decide whether people are arrogant. I think stuff like "I'll bet that guy has a porn addiction" or "She probably spends every red cent that comes into her household on shoes". "She seems like a good mom" or "He's a dedicated husband". I love analyzing human behavior.


I am like this above too ^^^^ Very much so ! Just sitting in a restaurant looking around, you get curious to how others R, watching them interact with their kids, each other. Sometimes you can tell who has been married too long as they are just staring into space, little talk, lost the spark. Or who is newly in love cause their faces are lit up, hanging on every word.

Seen this older business man & a younger woman kissing by the fire, really going at it, we were the only ones left in the Restaurant this day - we said to ourselves -that simply HAS to be an Affair, becaues of where we was (great hide out in the mountains-little business), he was not even good looking-much older -well to do, she was a knock out & their was too much spark for them to be married acting like that in public. We all tend to evaluate others, to say we don't , more lying. It doesn't make it right, and we may be completely wrong even ! BUt we still do it. 

Sat by this middle aged couple at a Ski Lodge, couldn't help but overhear their words to their little boys, it was almost like a scene from "Leave it to Beaver "- they were just TOO buttercuppy sweet, to the point of nauseum, it just didnt seem REAL somehow. I told my husband I bet they have Nanny's & never see them so this is why they are acting this way. Maybe I was way off base, but it is what crossed my mind. 

**** 

For the ladies on here - take a moment & do this TEST to evaluate how *Dirty minded *YOU are. I took this about a year ago and I was one notch below "FILTHY" as "pretty messy". 

******* | Take The Dirty Mind Test

It would be interesting to see since we are judging the guys so harshly. 

Scoring is :

Pure of mind
Slightly tainted
On the Verge
Pretty messy & 
Filthy!


----------



## stumblealong

Oh boy! If biological factors are involved, I'm way off. Only have one child, and i went and got fixed! No more babies for me!! I guess I'm going against my biological grain Oh and i still want sex...badly!


----------



## Trenton

themrs said:


> So if she is done having children, it would seem like it would be harder for a woman to want to have sex - biologically speaking of course. We just can't help it.


Yeah...heh

Speaking as myself and being a woman, sex has many different purposes...pleasure, intimacy, babies, etc.

Sheesh, I hope the same is true for men but have no idea.

Human beings are different than other animals because of our ability to reason and empathize as well as quickly adapt using these two abilities. You play the biology card and you're using an excuse. You play the biology card and you're underestimating the emotions and reasoning capabilities of our humanity, yourself and your partner. A guy playing the biology card is not a dude I'd want as my husband. I think it's lame.


----------



## themrs

stumblealong said:


> Oh boy! If biological factors are involved, I'm way off. Only have one child, and i went and got fixed! No more babies for me!! I guess I'm going against my biological grain


I got fixed to (but after 4 kids!). I thought it would make me want to have sex more, seeing as how I didn't have to think about birth control. I thought my mind would be free and I'd want to do it all the time. 

It didn't work that way.


----------



## themrs

Trenton said:


> Yeah...heh
> 
> Speaking as myself and being a woman, sex has many different purposes...pleasure, intimacy, babies, etc.
> 
> Sheesh, I hope the same is true for men but have no idea.
> 
> Human beings are different than other animals because of our ability to reason and empathize as well as quickly adapt using these two abilities. You play the biology card and you're using an excuse. You play the biology card and you're underestimating the emotions and reasoning capabilities of our humanity, yourself and your partner. A guy playing the biology card is not a dude I'd want as my husband. I think it's lame.



I agree. 

I think biology plays a big role in gender, but ultimately it comes down to choice.


----------



## Trenton

SA, I don't know I think that one finger being longer than the other has really affected you. hahaha

On the Verge
You scored 51% Dirtiness!
According to your score, you are on the threshold of possessing a truly dirty mind. You might enjoy a dirty joke or two once in a while, but you haven't allowed your thoughts to become that smutty. You may enjoy thinking dirty once in a while, but chances are it's not your top priority on your list of things to think about. You take it easy and probably don't offend people, and probably aren't easily offended, either. You possess a good balance of pure and impure thoughts.


----------



## stumblealong

themrs said:


> I got fixed to (but after 4 kids!). I thought it would make me want to have sex more, seeing as how I didn't have to think about birth control. I thought my mind would be free and I'd want to do it all the time.
> 
> It didn't work that way.


You would think it would work this way sorry it didn't
I wanted sex before and after I got fixed. Still aint gettin none!


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Trenton said:


> I loooove babies! Wish I had the money and time to have fifteen more.
> 
> Brennan, you have a great and valid point!


Thank you my dear. Hey, did I mention we are also "gatherers" biologically speaking? Imagine what crimes we could get away with if we used biology and "just couldn't help it" as a viable defense.


----------



## stumblealong

SA: How can this be! I scored 'filthy!' told ya i've been deprived too long!!


----------



## themrs

stumblealong said:


> You would think it would work this way sorry it didn't
> I wanted sex before and after I got fixed. Still aint gettin none!


Oh, I still want sex. I've just replaced my thoughts of getting pregnant with the million things I have to do prior to having sex. It makes it hard for me to relax.

That's how I'm "wired", but I still make the choice to ignore my instinct to organize the closets and find my husband so we can go at it!


----------



## Trenton

Brennan said:


> Thank you my dear. Hey, did I mention we are also "gatherers" biologically speaking? Imagine what crimes we could get away with if we used biology and "just couldn't help it" as a viable defense.


Haha! 

Sorry Mister Police Officer, I felt the urge to gather as many of these $2k shoes as I could. If you don't believe me then you don't understand science!

Sorry hun, I felt an urge to gather all these men to decide which one would genetically match with my biology. It's not my fault, blame my ovaries.


----------



## MGirl

Just to clarify-- When you ladies are referring to men controlling their urges, are you referring to instant, passing thoughts or dwelling thoughts?


----------



## themrs

Trenton said:


> Haha!
> 
> Sorry Mister Police Officer, I felt the urge to gather as many of these $2k shoes as I could. If you don't believe me then you don't understand science!
> 
> Sorry hun, I felt an urge to gather all these men to decide which one would genetically match with my biology. It's not my fault, blame my ovaries.


:rofl: You guys are cracking me up! 

The men would say that you could think about what shoes you would wear and which you wouldn't, as long as you only put on the old bunny slippers you have at home you aren't doing anything wrong. Fortunately, the slippers don't feel insecure about you pining away for the Jimmy Choos.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Trenton said:


> Haha!
> QUOTE]
> 
> I need to remember to use biology tonight when I am grocery shopping. Hell, I won't even bring my credit card.
> 
> Humor aside, the point I was trying to make is nearly all guys here defended their actions and pointed to their biological makeup as the reason for their actions. If biology is such a strong thing, then women would have the same responses to their biology. i.e wanting multiple children at all costs. That isn't the case though. Women don't act that way. They are able to control their urges. Men can too, they just don't.


----------



## Trenton

MGirl said:


> Just to clarify-- When you ladies are referring to men controlling their urges, are you referring to instant, passing thoughts or dwelling thoughts?


I'm not really addressing that. I have thoughts, some are really weird. I don't blame my biology. I think...sheesh stop with that thought you freak!

I didn't really read this whole thread. Just passing time and butted in. Rather rude of me actually.


----------



## stumblealong

MGirl said:


> Just to clarify-- When you ladies are referring to men controlling their urges, are you referring to instant, passing thoughts or dwelling thoughts?


Just the passing thoughts... but some men take it to the extreme, such as making comments when their woman is with them. This is where hurt feelings come into play. At least with my case.


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove

MGirl said:


> Sometimes I really cannot relate to you ladies. Urges to poke holes in condoms? Should I be questioning whether or not I am woman?
> 
> Wait a second...let me go check...


You'd be surprised at the lengths some women go through to have children - the man be damned!

I've heard some wild and wacky stories - picking up one-night stands in bars, etc.

My grandson's maternal grandmother did just that - picked up a man in a bar to get pregnant, had the child and when she wanted a second one, did the same thing.

Both kids have father unknown listed on the birth certificate, she's never been married and doesn't believe they need a father at all - unfortunately she believes the same thing about her grandson and has spent more than a year helping her daughter to get his father "my son" out of their lives.

I just don't understand how and why people think/do what they do sometimes - it just boggles my mind.


----------



## stumblealong

themrs said:


> Oh, I still want sex. I've just replaced my thoughts of getting pregnant with the million things I have to do prior to having sex. It makes it hard for me to relax.
> 
> That's how I'm "wired", but I still make the choice to ignore my instinct to organize the closets and find my husband so we can go at it!


:lol:
Hell with the closets!


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove

Brennan said:


> Trenton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Haha!
> QUOTE]
> 
> I need to remember to use biology tonight when I am grocery shopping. Hell, I won't even bring my credit card.
> 
> Humor aside, the point I was trying to make is nearly all guys here defended their actions and pointed to their biological makeup as the reason for their actions. If biology is such a strong thing, then women would have the same responses to their biology. i.e wanting multiple children at all costs. That isn't the case though. Women don't act that way. They are able to control their urges. Men can too, they just don't.
> 
> 
> 
> :iagree:
> 
> They can, they "choose" not to.
Click to expand...


----------



## Trenton

themrs said:


> :rofl: You guys are cracking me up!
> 
> The men would say that you could think about what shoes you would wear and which you wouldn't, as long as you only put on the old bunny slippers you have at home you aren't doing anything wrong. Fortunately, the slippers don't feel insecure about you pining away for the Jimmy Choos.


haha I first read your comment and was confused but got it second time around. 

It is odd that women are supposed to accept that there are far more beautiful women out there than themselves and their man can't help but notice and dream of this blessed perfection, but the consolation prize is that their middle aged, balding husband who snores still chose them instead of these gorgeous women who were begging them to let him stick his hard one inside her.

Yeah...something is not right here. 

I think it might be that men who think like this have much higher opinions of themselves than they should and undervalue women in general.


----------



## stumblealong

Trenton said:


> haha I first read your comment and was confused but got it second time around.
> 
> It is odd that women are supposed to accept that there are far more beautiful women out there than themselves and their man can't help but notice and dream of this blessed perfection, but the consolation prize is that their middle aged, balding husband who snores still chose them instead of these gorgeous women who were begging them to let him stick his hard one inside her.
> 
> Yeah...something is not right here.


Or a drunk who falls flat on his face several times a month! Now that's sexy! that is my consolation prize


----------



## Conrad

Trenton said:


> I'm not really addressing that. I have thoughts, some are really weird. I don't blame my biology. I think...sheesh stop with that thought you freak!
> 
> I didn't really read this whole thread. Just passing time and butted in. Rather rude of me actually.


No one questioned it


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Trenton said:


> haha I first read your comment and was confused but got it second time around.
> 
> It is odd that women are supposed to accept that there are far more beautiful women out there than themselves and their man can't help but notice and dream of this blessed perfection, but the consolation prize is that their middle aged, balding husband who snores still chose them instead of these gorgeous women who were begging them to let him stick his hard one inside her.
> 
> Yeah...something is not right here.
> 
> I think it might be that men who think like this have much higher opinions of themselves than they should and undervalue women in general.


We're supposed to accept it because it is "biological". Groovy. Gathering is biological for me. I think I will charge up $10,000 on my Visa at Saks and just tell my husband to deal with it, it's my imperative. I'll make sure to wear the heels I have on in my avi to unsure I make it on the [email protected] list of the men I encounter while meeting my biological needs. Kill two birds with one stone. "Gather" and boost my ego. Heck, maybe I'll get knocked up in the Women's Lounge, therefore taking care of two of my biological needs and getting the ego soothed. Well, I think I have Saturday well thought out!


----------



## frustr8dhubby

Here is another "biological" point. You ladies think WAY more about our actions that we do. Most of us don't think hey I bet she wants me. Or Hey she is hotter than my wife or "better" than my wife, or anything else. But I am trying really hard to stay out of this conversation so I will go back into hiding now..


----------



## frustr8dhubby

That is only after I use another of my biological urges and club one of you over the head and drag you back to my cave...


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

frustr8dhubby said:


> Here is another "biological" point. You ladies think WAY more about our actions that we do. Most of us don't think hey I bet she wants me. Or Hey she is hotter than my wife or "better" than my wife, or anything else. But I am trying really hard to stay out of this conversation so I will go back into hiding now..


Maybe if you guys thought about your actions more, you wouldn't be so quick to chalk it up to biology. Us women can wiff the bs from a mile away.
Well, this mean 'ole Liberal at least.


----------



## frustr8dhubby

Well I don't entirely disagree with you there. I'm lucky to remember what I walked into the room to do anymore...


----------



## Trenton

Conrad said:


> No one questioned it


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

frustr8dhubby said:


> Well I don't entirely disagree with you there. I'm lucky to remember what I walked into the room to do anymore...


Not sure what you meant by the last part? I wasn't trying to make you feel bad, I was pointing out that you said men don't think about it like women and I pointed out that perhaps more thought needs to be given and less excuses. :scratchhead:

Anyways, sorry that I won't be around much on Saturday. I got plans.


----------



## frustr8dhubby

I guess what I was trying to say is that we don't give it enough thought to think about it. Does that make sense? In other words they are typically passing thoughts, not worth dwelling on.


----------



## Trenton

stumblealong said:


> Or a drunk who falls flat on his face several times a month! Now that's sexy! that is my consolation prize


That stinks!


----------



## Trenton

Brennan said:


> Not sure what you meant by the last part? I wasn't trying to make you feel bad, I was pointing out that you said men don't think about it like women and I pointed out that perhaps more thought needs to be given and less excuses. :scratchhead:
> 
> Anyways, sorry that I won't be around much on Saturday. I got plans.


Too funny. Can you pick me up something? I'd love to gather Saturday but have to clean. Is cleaning in our biology? Am I continually nesting? Sheesh.


----------



## Trenton

frustr8dhubby said:


> I guess what I was trying to say is that we don't give it enough thought to think about it. Does that make sense? In other words they are typically passing thoughts, not worth dwelling on.


Yeah I got you. I have passing thoughts too. They have yet to result in several industries supporting the objectification of my thoughts for my own enjoyment however.

Funny but if women stopped allowing their own objectification, began valuing themselves and stopped waiting for men to stop de-valuing them...voila!

Sex strike? No really.

Kenyan Women on a Sex Strike: Why They Did It – women in and beyond the global


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Trenton said:


> Too funny. Can you pick me up something? I'd love to gather Saturday but have to clean. Is cleaning in our biology? Am I continually nesting? Sheesh.


Cleaning is indeed part of nesting. I'll pick you up something. A racy push up bra. Gotta make sure you stay on the [email protected] list. After said purchase is made, I'll get pregnant in the bathroom.


----------



## ManDup

SimplyAmorous said:


> So you are like me, your children think YOU are currupt ? I have not found too many in my shoes. It is kind of a nice problem to have in comparison to some kids these days on drugs, getting drunk & drama relationships from hell.
> 
> BUt yeah, He is over the top. I know it is the influence of many Christian Youth programs/friendships - his admiration for those in his life & their example. He is all into this "courting" thing instead of dating. I feel he may regret this someday, but it is HIS life to live. At least he is happy. When I was religious, I had a stick up my butt about it. MY son is not following in my footsteps there, so maybe he will be FINE and show me a thing or 2.


After I divorced his mother, I told him, "I hope you understand, I'm not waiting for marriage."


----------



## Trenton

Hey Brennan, buy a Dodge...

YouTube - Dodge girl in bathroom

Men love chicks in bathrooms that have ramrash.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Trenton said:


> Hey Brennan, buy a Dodge...
> 
> YouTube - Dodge girl in bathroom
> 
> Men love chicks in bathrooms that have ramrash.


Hey! What a great idea. I'll buy a Dodge Caravan. Gonna need it with a baby on the way. 
What's too funny is if I actually did 1/10th of all this and blamed biology my husband's head would explode. But when he does stupid sh!t and blames biology, he gets indignant if I call bs on it. Sounds like alot of men are like this. Clearly it isn't biology if the pendulum on this only swings one way.


----------



## ManDup

Trenton said:


> Haha!
> 
> Sorry Mister Police Officer, I felt the urge to gather as many of these $2k shoes as I could. If you don't believe me then you don't understand science!
> 
> Sorry hun, I felt an urge to gather all these men to decide which one would genetically match with my biology. It's not my fault, blame my ovaries.


You gals seem to easily mix up thoughts with actions. Can you control window-shopping? I guess you can avoid windows. Avoiding women is harder.

It's true that speaking aloud, "wow, she's hot" can be offensive, and if a husband does this repeatedly despite your protests, there is something bigger going on there. 

But, when it comes to normal behavior, i.e., elevator eyes with no comment made, think about this: would you want a man who doesn't find you attractive? See, this attraction thing can't be turned off and on. It's all or nothing, and we can no more avoid checking out attractive women than you can avoid checking out shoe displays. 

Be flattered that we still find you attractive. And rest assured that we stay (not stick, ffs) with you because we choose to, daily, not because of some easily-broken vow from long ago. If you're with someone who doesn't feel this way, why?


----------



## Runs like Dog

I was in Starbucks today. I was mesmerized by the barrista's huge rack.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ManDup

Trenton said:


> Yeah I got you. I have passing thoughts too. They have yet to result in several industries supporting the objectification of my thoughts for my own enjoyment however.


Hmm....
Let me google that for you.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

ManDup said:


> You gals seem to easily mix up thoughts with actions. Can you control window-shopping? I guess you can avoid windows. Avoiding women is harder.
> 
> It's true that speaking aloud, "wow, she's hot" can be offensive, and if a husband does this repeatedly despite your protests, there is something bigger going on there.
> 
> But, when it comes to normal behavior, i.e., elevator eyes with no comment made, think about this: would you want a man who doesn't find you attractive? See, this attraction thing can't be turned off and on. It's all or nothing, and we can no more avoid checking out attractive women than you can avoid checking out shoe displays.
> 
> Be flattered that we still find you attractive. And rest assured that we stay (not stick, ffs) with you because we choose to, daily, not because of some easily-broken vow from long ago. If you're with someone who doesn't feel this way, why?


Window shopping is like masturbating without the orgasm....what's the point.
As for feeling flattered, let's go back to Trenton's post about this. 
Comparing ogling women to a chick looking at a shoe display is like comparing apples to Q-tips.


----------



## Trenton

ManDup said:


> Be flattered that we still find you attractive. And rest assured that we stay (not stick, ffs) with you because we choose to, daily, not because of some easily-broken vow from long ago. If you're with someone who doesn't feel this way, why?


Wadup wit dat?

You make it sound as if us gals have many husbands who all stay with us because they want to and still find us attractive. Is this a nightmare or a fantasy? :rofl:

I still don't believe it's biological. Nope. Lame. I also believe it is individualized. 

I don't know though...global sex strike = world peace? Talk about a weird biological weapon.


----------



## ManDup

Brennan said:


> Window shopping is like masturbating without the orgasm....what's the point.
> As for feeling flattered, let's go back to Trenton's post about this.
> Comparing ogling women to a chick looking at a shoe display is like comparing apples to Q-tips.


Umm, it wasn't me that brought up the parallel of shoplifting to a biological urge toward gathering. But I was pointing out that ogling is to cheating as looking at shoes is to stealing them. Logic is not a woman's strong suit, I know. I make allowances for these biological issues and explain again.


----------



## Trenton

ManDup said:


> Umm, it wasn't me that brought up the parallel of shoplifting to a biological urge toward gathering. But I was pointing out that ogling is to cheating as looking at shoes is to stealing them. Logic is not a woman's strong suit, I know. I make allowances for these biological issues and explain again.


Hey, you have a man on here arguing that men don't think about thought. Where's the logic there Mister?

If you step back from your inflated fantasies of dumb blondes with big boobs and hairless vajayjays (sorry I couldn't resist the blazingly bold assumption for dramatics sake) I think you'll be able to comprehend that men say it is biological as a way to take blame away from themselves. That is the issue, not the thoughts.

What if a pedophile said that his thirst for young sex was a mistake in biology but biological none the less and so he should be free'd from responsibility of thoughts that led to action. If they remained thoughts his/her entire life there'd never be an issue that needed an excuse.

If a man thinks a passing thought...no biggie. Hello? We won't even know about it. If these passing thoughts effect their relationship negatively there's a problem and it's not biology that's at fault.


----------



## Halien

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> And I think that's part of the problem - a lot of men consider it a "societal" thing - that's just another excuse for "it's not my fault."
> 
> It's all about choices.
> 
> I could choose to screw around on my husband, especially with the ED, withholding sex, cruising porn, etc. I would have every right and no one at this point would blame me.
> 
> But "I" "choose" to stay true to my marriage vows and work on the issues instead of taking the easy way out.
> 
> A lot of men choose the easy way and then blame it on society, marketing, TV, anything but pointing the finger directly where it belongs - on THEM.


That's not what I meant by 'societal'. Think society, as in a widespread group. What I meant is that many women feel rated by men in general, everywhere they go, hence this thread. I'm smart enough to know that my wife's visual nature is pretty rare. Growing up, though, something just told me that I probably wouldn't have to know what it felt like to have a wife who checked out men's crotch sizes on the European beaches, but there I was. Then, she'd feel so guilty about it that she would confess, and tell me all the details. Finally, I just told her that I'd prefer to be blissfully ignorant. But, that was just her nature. No use feeling guilty about it as long as she wasn't acting on it, but it motivated me to keep the 6 pack through the years.


----------



## ManDup

Trenton said:


> If a man thinks a passing thought...no biggie. Hello? We won't even know about it. If these passing thoughts effect their relationship negatively there's a problem and it's not biology that's at fault.


So we agree, it's actions that matter, not thoughts. But men do the sorting automatically, as a passing thought. I said, that when men act on those thoughts, even to simply say them out loud, they have made a choice there. Then *you* have to make a choice, to accept it or not. By staying, you accept it.

The reason this is such an issue for women is that they don't do it, so they think it's a choice, but the reason they don't do it is because biological factors are at play. Some think we men can help thinking such thoughts (which is the main title of the thread isn't it, about thoughts). Women generally don't do this insta-sort thing because they are attracted to status at least as much as to looks. Men are attracted to looks because those generally represent markers for good health and ability to breed.

But, there is not a simple way to at-a-glance assess a man's status. There are just too many strategies available. Funny, rich, strong, fast, loyal, ability to reproduce, etc. So a woman has to get to know a man before she can fully decide if she is attracted to him. All of the reasons for this are based in biology and evolution. There is really only one main way to be healthy, and that is attractive to men. 

Women have to invest carefully in the mate they choose because it's 9 months - 18 years commitment; men can afford biologically to spread their seed far and wide. Thus, because of biological factors involved we do think differently. How we act is the thing on which we should be judged.

Finally, throwing a twist into the mess, because women want a man who is higher-status than she is, men have to continue to act in ways that demonstrate this status and are rewarded for it. One of those ways is to ogle other women. Only a high-status male could get away with that. Another is to cheat prodigiously. Only a super-high-status man could get away with that. I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying it explains the proclivity to think/act this way, and women are to "blame" just as much as men.


----------



## Trenton

Yes, we do indeed agree on the overall picture with the difference being I disagree that biology is a valid excuse. This was further proven by Brennan pointing out that although women might biologically feel an urge to have babies during their baby years, they are fully capable of ignoring or overcoming these urges. This would suggest that we are capable of overcoming our biology. When society indulges and makes excuses based upon biology, you have a problem because there is no accountability of self. 

In other words, we are intelligent and capable of responsibility so should not need such excuses. It's not as if men are the first to excuse emotional outbursts that women blame on PMS (biology) are they? I don't think women should blame their behaviors on that either.

In this day and age women can date a man without thinking it's a 9 month biological commitment. In fact, many do indeed date simply for fun without thinking that they will settle down with the man.

Finally to your finally, I am a woman and did not have any interest in a man that was of higher-status than me. Am I an exception? Maybe, but I am surrounded by women that are like minded. Perhaps this is why I find the type of men you describe in your last paragraph to be of little value.

Post Script:
I honestly do not have this problem with my husband in any way shape or form. He compliments me and has never shown me that he objectifies women. If he did, you're right, I'd most likely leave.

Cause & Effect, yes & always.

Conscious awareness & understanding...sometimes lacking.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

ManDup said:


> Umm, it wasn't me that brought up the parallel of shoplifting to a biological urge toward gathering. But I was pointing out that ogling is to cheating as looking at shoes is to stealing them. Logic is not a woman's strong suit, I know. I make allowances for these biological issues and explain again.


Biological urges was brought up by men here, I brought up a woman's biological urge have babies and to gather and that we control it otherwise we would all have 14 children and crime would be on the rise. We control ours, men don't.
As for your last comment, being insulting and condescending must be your strong suit. You attacked Catherine and now me. I don't appreciate it. We all have our own opinions, there is no need to stoop to that behavior.


----------



## MGirl

Brennan said:


> Biological urges was brought up by men here, I brought up a woman's biological urge have babies and to gather and that we control it otherwise we would all have 14 children and crime would be on the rise. We control ours, men don't.


I know this discussion has traveled to another thread, but I wanted to respond to this.

I don't see how on earth a comparison can be made between a woman's "urge" to steal and get herself knocked up and a man having a passing thought about an attractive woman.

They don't even seem to be in the same category to me.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

As for women having the ability to control their urges and men having no self-control? That is a generalization.

I believe that a man's natural response is to notice attractive women around him. You probably disagree with me. That's okay. But can we agree that he has a biological "urge" to act on that attraction response? If we want to talk about control, rather than comparing apples to oranges, let's compare apples to apples. I'll use cheating as an example of a biological urge, _something both sexes struggle to control_. I feel like that's a fair comparison, rather than putting having a dozen children up against having a brief thought.

There are dozens of men on these forums whose wives have cheated on them with other men. Did those women control their biological urges? They sure didn't.

There are dozens of men on here who are living in sexless marriages, who are frustrated and would love to go out and fulfill their urges with other women, but they don't. Do they control their biological urges? They sure do.

There are those on both sides of the gender gap who give into their urges. Let's not make it one-sided.

Maybe I'm way off here, but that's the way I see it.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

MGirl said:


> I know this discussion has traveled to another thread, but I wanted to respond to this.
> 
> I don't see how on earth a comparison can be made between a woman's "urge" to steal and get herself knocked up and a man having a passing thought about an attractive woman.
> 
> They don't even seem to be in the same category to me.
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> As for women having the ability to control their urges and men having no self-control? That is a generalization.
> 
> I believe that a man's natural response is to notice attractive women around him. You probably disagree with me. That's okay. But can we agree that he has a biological "urge" to act on that attraction response? If we want to talk about control, rather than comparing apples to oranges, let's compare apples to apples. I'll use cheating as an example of a biological urge, _something both sexes struggle to control_. I feel like that's a fair comparison, rather than putting having a dozen children up against having a brief thought.
> 
> There are dozens of men on these forums whose wives have cheated on them with other men. Did those women control their biological urges? They sure didn't.
> 
> There are dozens of men on here who are living in sexless marriages, who are frustrated and would love to go out and fulfill their urges with other women, but they don't. Do they control their biological urges? They sure do.
> 
> There are those on both sides of the gender gap who give into their urges. Let's not make it one-sided.
> 
> Maybe I'm way off here, but that's the way I see it.


To your first point, a man having sexual thoughts/creating a list/logging in for further masturbatory exploration about random women has been explained here by men as biological. They say they cannot help it. It's in their DNA. What I was saying is that if we are using biology as a reason for poor behavior then women should have every right to have as many children as she wants. That is OUR biology. We want multiple children to ensure that at least one of our children grows to adulthood. So if biology is being used by men, then they should welcome us women using it as well. That was my point. 

To your second point, cheating. I am not qualified to go there. I have never cheated but I have thought about it. When I was totally ignored by my husband you can bet I thought about how easy it would be. I decided it wasn't worth it. My integrity kept me on an even path. It wasn't biology. 

To your third point, men living in a sexless marriage. I am going to catch hell here but no healthy woman is truly sexless. I am talking about a vibrant woman who suddenly doesn't want sex. Guess what? She does, just not with you. Something is amiss. 

As for them controlling their biological urges? I haven't read a single man's post here who does. They all look at porn, some get happy endings from a "massage therapist" and some flat out cheat. They aren't controlling anything. 

I never implied or suggested anything was one sided. What I was saying is that men rely on biology. Women should be allowed the same luxury. If we are going to lean on biology to excuse our behavior, let's make it universal.


----------



## Deejo

Brennan, I like you, but that is about as grotesque a mischaracterization and over-generalization as I've come across on these boards.


----------



## michzz

Deejo said:


> Brennan, I like you, but that is about as grotesque a mischaracterization and over-generalization as I've come across on these boards.


:iagree:

Words written in anger warrant a do-over.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo said:


> Brennan, I like you, but that is about as grotesque a mischaracterization and over-generalization as I've come across on these boards.


How? How is biology for one explained away for another? I am NOT trying to be snarky, I literally don't understand it.


----------



## sisters359

ManDup said:


> Women have to invest carefully in the mate they choose because it's 9 months - 18 years commitment; men can afford biologically to spread their seed far and wide. Thus, because of biological factors involved we do think differently. How we act is the thing on which we should be judged.
> 
> Finally, throwing a twist into the mess, because women want a man who is higher-status than she is, men have to continue to act in ways that demonstrate this status and are rewarded for it. One of those ways is to ogle other women. Only a high-status male could get away with that. Another is to cheat prodigiously. Only a super-high-status man could get away with that. I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying it explains the proclivity to think/act this way, and women are to "blame" just as much as men.


This is so full of illogical assumptions and unsubstantiated assertion that it is pretty much a worthless argument. 

No woman is to "blame" if a man acts like a pig and ogles or worse. Ogling isn't biology; it's bad manners and a complete disrespect for others he is with. But we can all be aware of an attractive person--and yet without ogling or behaving rudely. 

And if you think women aren't noticing, you are not reading carefully. Status has nothing to do with appreciating (discretely) a handsome guy. The main reason women don't ogle more is because we've been taught not to.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

michzz said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Words written in anger warrant a do-over.


True. Please explain though.


----------



## michzz

Deejo said:


> Brennan, I like you, but that is about as grotesque a mischaracterization and over-generalization as I've come across on these boards.


:iagree:

Words written in anger warrant a do-over.



Brennan said:


> True. Please explain though.


I think you wrote some indefensible things things regarding gender and biology that reflect your anger at a specific person. You've extrapolated to entire gender the wounding you've experienced.

You can't cite some obnoxious postings by a few and refer to them as a general way of all men. 

If I did that towards women I'd be called on it.

I'm kind of disappointed since I don't believe you truly think this way. It's a way for you to vent your anger.


----------



## Deejo

You have had a number of men in this thread try to explicitly explain what goes through their mind. Speaking for myself, I didn't do so to be smug. I'm not offering biology as an excuse for misbehavior, primarily because I have never remotely considered it as misbehaving or disrespectful. Staring at a woman or indulging in protracted sexual fantasy about her while staring at her? Very inappropriate, classless ... but that is isn't what I do ... and the apparent problem is that you and others believe it is.

Pornography is completely outside of the context of this topic. In this instance, porn is apples and q-tips. But attraction keeps being lumped in with pornography

In a nutshell, my point was a man that notices a woman, in a fraction of a second knows whether or not he is attracted to her. Women know it too. If you want to assure having a neutral to negative 'notice' ratio, then I'd suggest start wearing baggy, colorless clothes all the time, stop wearing makeup and doing your hair. Point being, women DO often dress and make themselves up to be noticed. I don't think because a woman is wearing a blouse with a plunging neckline that she is inviting or should be subjected to some dude's rape fantasy ... but she knows damn well what the response from men will be by choosing to wear something that makes her 'stand out'.

Seriously, what is it that you would like to see? If this is about the anger you have for your husband, I can understand, but it is still misplaced.

Do you want men to NOT have a strong desire to pursue women?

Testosterone performs very specific roles ... most of them sexual, geared towards _biological_ desire, and generating _biological_ changes in male physiology to make them more desirable to women. That isn't an excuse or a cop-out. It's nature. But it does not mean that we by default abandon choice, excuse or condone bad behavior.

Take that hormone out of the equation, and you get your wish. No more oggling. No more 'checklist'. Actually if the research is right, that may happen. Base T levels in men have been dropping for the last few decades

I think what bugged me is that regarding the men in sexless marriages piece, that you take a shot at the very kind of guy that it sounds like you wish there were more of (accomodating, kind, positive, well mannered) by pointing out that they are sexless because their wives don't want to have sex with them.

You are painting with extraordinarily broad strokes. Are there men out there that have utter disregard for women, and only objectifies them? Without a doubt. There are very few if any of those men on these forums.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

stumblealong said:


> SA: How can this be! I scored 'filthy!' told ya i've been deprived too long!!


:rofl::rofl: This doesn’t surprise me too much, I think it works this way if you are starving In the desert. Got to hand it to you Stumblealong, you sure know how to ask a question & set it ON FIRE, look at all these pages, this may break a record here at TAM !

Mgirl's post :iagree:

Deejo - Brilliantly explained - as always.


----------



## Syrum

Trenton said:


> Yes, we do indeed agree on the overall picture with the difference being I disagree that biology is a valid excuse. This was further proven by Brennan pointing out that although women might biologically feel an urge to have babies during their baby years, they are fully capable of ignoring or overcoming these urges. This would suggest that we are capable of overcoming our biology. When society indulges and makes excuses based upon biology, you have a problem because there is no accountability of self.
> 
> In other words, we are intelligent and capable of responsibility so should not need such excuses. It's not as if men are the first to excuse emotional outbursts that women blame on PMS (biology) are they? I don't think women should blame their behaviors on that either.
> 
> In this day and age women can date a man without thinking it's a 9 month biological commitment. In fact, many do indeed date simply for fun without thinking that they will settle down with the man.
> 
> Finally to your finally, I am a woman and did not have any interest in a man that was of higher-status than me. Am I an exception? Maybe, but I am surrounded by women that are like minded. Perhaps this is why I find the type of men you describe in your last paragraph to be of little value.
> 
> Post Script:
> I honestly do not have this problem with my husband in any way shape or form. He compliments me and has never shown me that he objectifies women. If he did, you're right, I'd most likely leave.
> 
> Cause & Effect, yes & always.
> 
> Conscious awareness & understanding...sometimes lacking.


:iagree: It sums up exactly how I feel.


----------



## okeydokie

so no more talk from the womenfolk about "size does matter", cause i wouldnt want to be "objectified"


----------



## Amplexor

At precisely 03:35:21 PM Friday 29 April 2011 Geneva Time the thread becomes self aware and self sustaining. It is now alive!!


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove

In defense of my women buddies here.

We are simply trying to say how this type of behavior makes us feel - period - as simple as that.

You can take it or leave it. But if you care about how "your" behavior makes your wife feel - then you'll listen, if not - then you won't - your perogative.

If you love someone, it's your job to build them up, not tear them down. In the eyes of a lot of women (not speaking for all - myself included), this type of behavior makes me feel bad. Period. It's not any more complicated than that.

If you love me, you'll make the change - for my sake. I don't care if it's because you're men and you're visual, it's biology, it's societal, it's primal urges, it makes absolutely no difference to me "why" you do it - it makes me uncomfortable and makes me feel less than. If that's not important to you - then so be it - if my feelings are important - then stop doing it in my presence.

It's as simple as that - it's black and white.

I don't "deliberately" do behaviors that make my husband feel bad or make him uncomfortable - just the opposite - I go out of my way to not do so, sometimes to my own detriment because I love him and I don't want him to feel bad or uncomfortable on my account.

We all have the ability to control our thoughts and actions - is it easy with all the temptation staring us in the face - no it's not - but to assume that we don't have control over ourselves due to biology and other factors is to assume we have no control over anything we do - that we are led by our genetic make-up and other factors - BS.

Perhaps if we all - women and men in general, quit making excuses for everything we do and accept responsibility that we are in control of our thoughts/actions, there would be a lot less people out here on TAM on threads like this.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> In defense of my women buddies here.
> 
> We are simply trying to say how this type of behavior makes us feel - period - as simple as that.
> 
> You can take it or leave it. But if you care about how "your" behavior makes your wife feel - then you'll listen, if not - then you won't - your perogative.
> 
> If you love someone, it's your job to build them up, not tear them down. In the eyes of a lot of women (not speaking for all - myself included), this type of behavior makes me feel bad. Period. It's not any more complicated than that.
> 
> If you love me, you'll make the change - for my sake. I don't care if it's because you're men and you're visual, it's biology, it's societal, it's primal urges, it makes absolutely no difference to me "why" you do it - it makes me uncomfortable and makes me feel less than. If that's not important to you - then so be it - if my feelings are important - then stop doing it in my presence.
> 
> It's as simple as that - it's black and white.
> 
> I don't "deliberately" do behaviors that make my husband feel bad or make him uncomfortable - just the opposite - I go out of my way to not do so, sometimes to my own detriment because I love him and I don't want him to feel bad or uncomfortable on my account.
> 
> We all have the ability to control our thoughts and actions - is it easy with all the temptation staring us in the face - no it's not - but to assume that we don't have control over ourselves due to biology and other factors is to assume we have no control over anything we do - that we are led by our genetic make-up and other factors - BS.
> 
> Perhaps if we all - women and men in general, quit making excuses for everything we do and accept responsibility that we are in control of our thoughts/actions, there would be a lot less people out here on TAM on threads like this.


You summed up precisely what I was trying to get at.


----------



## stumblealong

SimplyAmorous said:


> :rofl::rofl: This doesn’t surprise me too much, I think it works this way if you are starving In the desert. Got to hand it to you Stumblealong, you sure know how to ask a question & set it ON FIRE, look at all these pages, this may break a record here at TAM !


Sure didn't know this was gonna happen! Just was curious actually, didn't really expect all these replies, but hey, I'm finding it pretty informative! 

Despite all the controversy on here...I just wanted to thank everyone for all the honest opinions. Thank you to all the fellas on here that have been honest in what you're thinkin. Your brave and to all the strong women on here who can sure give one hell of a debate!!


----------



## stumblealong

Halien said:


> I'm smart enough to know that my wife's visual nature is pretty rare. Growing up, though, something just told me that I probably wouldn't have to know what it felt like to have a wife who checked out men's crotch sizes on the European beaches, but there I was. Then, she'd feel so guilty about it that she would confess, and tell me all the details. Finally, I just told her that *I'd prefer to be blissfully ignorant*. But, that was just her nature. No use feeling guilty about it as long as she wasn't acting on it, but it motivated me to keep the 6 pack through the years.



I prefer to be blissfully ignorant too! Guess i shouldn't of started this thread 

See now Halien...you know what some of us gals are experiencing, but our men show no guilt or remorse like your wife. Thumbs up on the six pack tho...oh no...did I just objectify you? Uggg...what a thin line we tread!


----------



## themrs

I see both sides. 

Thoughts are not behaviors no matter how much we try and make it so. Because a woman wants to have a lot of children, she may think about having a baby all the time. That doesn't mean she will poke a hole in a condom. It's the same for men. Just because men are attracted to women and think about which ones they will and will not bed, doesn't mean they will actually pursue them. It's two different things.

I also understand how the idea of a man categorizing women into "will have sex with"/"won't have sex with" in his head is insulting. However, just as it is difficult for alot of women to NOT think about babies or gathering lots of shoes it is difficult for men not to think about women. 

That makes perfect sense to me that men would look at women and think about which ones he would bed because he's given millions of sperm. Biologically, he would be looking to spread his seed around to as many women as possible. But we women only get one egg at a time, so it would stand to reason that we are only looking for one man and thus do not have the desire to categorize men in our heads.

I've come to the conclusion that men categorizing women in their heads is not bad behavior. Acting on those instincts is.


----------



## stumblealong

themrs said:


> I see both sides.
> I've come to the conclusion that men categorizing women in their heads is not bad behavior. Acting on those instincts is.


I do not think my man would act on his instincts, and I truly don't think these thoughts are bad behavior (here comes the but)...but it is the way he does it when with me. Basically what it comes down to is the mans character overall. If I felt loved and appreciated, seriously I would cut him some slack in this area, but I generally feel like crap, and this just adds to it. I used to mention how it hurts my feelings, I don't anymore. At this point I just don't care who he is thinking about scrogging...this should worry him more.

Yes, these are just thoughts...but isn't it our thoughts that make us who we are?


----------



## themrs

stumblealong said:


> I do not think my man would act on his instincts, and I truly don't think these thoughts are bad behavior (here comes the but)...but it is the way he does it when with me. Basically what it comes down to is the mans character overall. If I felt loved and appreciated, seriously I would cut him some slack in this area, but I generally feel like crap, and this just adds to it. I used to mention how it hurts my feelings, I don't anymore. At this point I just don't care who he is thinking about scrogging...this should worry him more.
> 
> Yes, these are just thoughts...but isn't it our thoughts that make us who we are?



What he does is disrespectful. I don't think any man here is denying that it is hurtful towards a woman to stare at other women while you are with her. 

I don't think our thoughts define us as much as our actions. We are what we choose, not what we think. I mean, I could think about killing someone every day of my life but that doesn't make me a murderer.


----------



## MGirl

themrs said:


> I've come to the conclusion that men categorizing women in their heads is not bad behavior. Acting on those instincts is.


:iagree::iagree:

Deejo- Best response I've heard in a long time, my hat goes off to you.


----------



## stumblealong

themrs said:


> What he does is disrespectful. I don't think any man here is denying that it is hurtful towards a woman to stare at other women while you are with her.
> 
> I don't think our thoughts define us as much as our actions. We are what we choose, not what we think. I mean, I could think about killing someone every day of my life but that doesn't make me a murderer.


Very, very true....(another but), don't you think, let's say, if you think about killing someone everyday, this would have a cumulative effect on your personality?


----------



## themrs

stumblealong said:


> Very, very true....(another but), don't you think, let's say, if you think about killing someone everyday, this would have a cumulative effect on your personality?


Maybe my personality around that person! I don't know. If it's just in my head and not something I talk about. . . 

I just think there are things that go on in a person's head that if other people knew about, well it would make them seem like a crazy person. There are things I think about that I would never really do (or even WANT to do for that matter) and I don't think it has an effect on my daily interactions with people.


----------



## stumblealong

themrs said:


> Maybe my personality around that person! I don't know. If it's just in my head and not something I talk about. . .
> 
> I just think there are things that go on in a person's head that if other people knew about, well it would make them seem like a crazy person. There are things I think about that I would never really do (or even WANT to do for that matter) and I don't think it has an effect on my daily interactions with people.


Yeah, I really wouldn't want people diggin around in my head. They may be shocked...like I was after taking SA's quiz. Seems I have a filthy mind But, that can be circumstantial too!
I guess if we have thoughts that we know may have a negative impact on someone...we should just keep it to ourselves. (In many cases)


----------



## ManDup

Brennan said:


> Biological urges was brought up by men here, I brought up a woman's biological urge have babies and to gather and that we control it otherwise we would all have 14 children and crime would be on the rise. We control ours, men don't.


The point is, men too control their urges. They don't go and sleep with every woman they see, but they do think about it. If that's not control I don't know what is. I make the remarks I do out of frustration because you continue over and over to make this same logical mistake.


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove

ManDup said:


> The point is, men too control their urges. They don't go and sleep with every woman they see, but they do think about it. If that's not control I don't know what is. I make the remarks I do out of frustration because you continue over and over to make this same logical mistake.


Okay - I can agree with you on that.

But where do you stand on men actually doing this in the presense of their wives/SO when they know it bothers them?


----------



## ManDup

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Okay - I can agree with you on that.
> 
> But where do you stand on men actually doing this in the presense of their wives/SO when they know it bothers them?


As I tried to say before, that's kind of a mixed bag. I know many many guys, myself included, who were overall TOO NICE to their women, catering to their every desire, but emasculating themselves in the process. Their reward for it was to have the woman bored, and eventually for her to stray. The explanation that biologically, women are generally _attracted_ to a man of higher status than her, seems to fit this well. 

If a man is a complete doormat, she has no respect for him. So to give in to every little whim of a woman is a mistake. So continuing some behavior that might not please the woman is a necessary evil. How is a man going to protect the woman if he can't even stand up to her sometimes? I'm talking about primal instincts here, not a couple of hundred years of civilization, which hasn't made a dent in a psyche formed by millions of years of evolution.

On the other hand, women long-term look for a man who gives them _comfort_ in the relationship, because he will make a good father to the kids, etc., rather than the alpha *******, who might have high status and good genes, and is _attractive_ but isn't going to stick around. So if a man has no thought for the woman, completely treats her as an object, walks all over her, is never vulnerable, she will eventually be so uncomfortable that she has to leave.

The best man balances comfort and attraction. He's a little bit playful *******, a little bit fawning dweeb. That's me, but I'm taken. 

Incidentally, in answer to the objection that men _never_ deny their urges, I was in a horrible marriage for 20 years and never stepped out. I stood it as long as I could, for the kids, etc., until she blatantly took up with another woman, whom she refused to quit. Even then, though I started dating after the separation, I still denied myself women who were literally grinding on my lap, until the divorce was done.


----------



## okeydokie

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Okay - I can agree with you on that.
> 
> But where do you stand on men actually doing this in the presense of their wives/SO when they know it bothers them?


its a no no to be any kind of obvious about it. its a huge no no for you significant other to know your doing it, that is assuming all else is ok in your relationship


----------



## ManDup

sisters359 said:


> This is so full of illogical assumptions and unsubstantiated assertion that it is pretty much a worthless argument.
> 
> No woman is to "blame" if a man acts like a pig and ogles or worse. Ogling isn't biology; it's bad manners and a complete disrespect for others he is with. But we can all be aware of an attractive person--and yet without ogling or behaving rudely.
> 
> And if you think women aren't noticing, you are not reading carefully. Status has nothing to do with appreciating (discretely) a handsome guy. The main reason women don't ogle more is because we've been taught not to.


Note that I put "blame" in quotes, indicating that I don't really blame women. I admit the unsubstantiated assertions (but I don't see the logic holes - please enlighten me), but I assure you that all the ideas are thoroughly field-tested and do work almost entirely as if they are true.

As for attraction to looks, it's a matter of degree. For men it is many times stronger, from what I understand, and nothing said here dissuades me from that notion. The very fact that women have a problem with men doing it, tells me they are not biologically compelled to it as strongly.


----------



## ManDup

Trenton said:


> In other words, we are intelligent and capable of responsibility so should not need such excuses. It's not as if men are the first to excuse emotional outbursts that women blame on PMS (biology) are they? I don't think women should blame their behaviors on that either.


True, we can overcome biological urges with rational thought, etc. However, I still think it's valuable to know what those urges are in the first place, to help us better understand where the other is coming from. Hence this thread. It's actually good for men to know that women appreciate a little more of the comfort side when on PMS, and a little more of the alpha side when ovulating.



Trenton said:


> In this day and age women can date a man without thinking it's a 9 month biological commitment. In fact, many do indeed date simply for fun without thinking that they will settle down with the man.


You can rationally do this, but underlying everything we do is a million years of evolution. It's not so easily ignored as you might think; it's better to work with it than against it when that doesn't compromise our cherished values. That's the value of knowing what the actual urges are. Sometimes they are not harmful, and can be enlightening.



Trenton said:


> Finally to your finally, I am a woman and did not have any interest in a man that was of higher-status than me. Am I an exception? Maybe, but I am surrounded by women that are like minded. Perhaps this is why I find the type of men you describe in your last paragraph to be of little value.


I suspect that he is better at you than SOMETHING, surely. And I'll bet you find those things _attractive_ in him. As I said, there are many ways to demonstrate status; it's not all outwardly visible to society. I also assume he provides you _comfort_ in many areas. This mix is the key.


Trenton said:


> Post Script:
> I honestly do not have this problem with my husband in any way shape or form. He compliments me and has never shown me that he objectifies women. If he did, you're right, I'd most likely leave.
> 
> Cause & Effect, yes & always.
> 
> Conscious awareness & understanding...sometimes lacking.


You could use a little objectifyin' from your husband. Just sayin'.

Incidentally, women don't know
what they want.


----------



## Trenton

ManDup said:


> True, we can overcome biological urges with rational thought, etc. However, I still think it's valuable to know what those urges are in the first place, to help us better understand where the other is coming from. Hence this thread. It's actually good for men to know that women appreciate a little more of the comfort side when on PMS, and a little more of the alpha side when ovulating.
> 
> 
> You can rationally do this, but underlying everything we do is a million years of evolution. It's not so easily ignored as you might think; it's better to work with it than against it when that doesn't compromise our cherished values. That's the value of knowing what the actual urges are. Sometimes they are not harmful, and can be enlightening.
> 
> 
> I suspect that he is better at you than SOMETHING, surely. And I'll bet you find those things _attractive_ in him. As I said, there are many ways to demonstrate status; it's not all outwardly visible to society. I also assume he provides you _comfort_ in many areas. This mix is the key.
> 
> You could use a little objectifyin' from your husband. Just sayin'.
> 
> Incidentally, women don't know
> what they want.


I am all for understanding. I wonder how many who cite the biology excuse actually know very much about it. This is just a curiosity, you personally may very well be a Biologist! Regardless, I am not for citing an overused or cherry picked excuse without anything but anecdotal evidence.

I am so sick of this "higher status" male thing. Perhaps it is a convenient motivator for men to reach goals of theirs but it undermines the better things about our humanity...such as compassion, connection and the care of one another and the world. You see, we are capable of these things and yet many of these arguments cater towards reverse evolutionary thinking. Biology, evolution...great! Let's now work on evolving forward.

My husband is better at me in many things. I would say he is my polar opposite in personality. Could this have something to do with his male biology? Absolutely but certainly not completely. He does make me feel safe and allows me to be the self that I struggle with being but very much want to be. It has nothing to do with "higher status" as was suggested, as was my point.

I looked at your study. I think it is missing one thing. Women don't know what they want sexually as they are conditioned more in regards to sex and confused by their mixed desires and conflicting feelings towards what they read/hear/see/feel that they should be experiencing and what they actually read/hear/see/feel. 

For example, they are conditioned to believe sex with men should be best. Yet, most don't orgasm during their first encounter with heterosexual sex, men orgasm quickly and in different ways that do not jive well with a woman's sexuality. The two are mismatched with the man easily getting off and the woman often, if with an inexperienced or impatient man, left with nothing but an emotional enjoyment (if that).

In other words, it's more complicated for women. Their confusion is far more reasonable than women or men give them credit for when it comes to sexuality and the enjoyment of their sexuality. This is similar in other areas too.


----------



## Trenton

I just had to add...how can you possibly know that I would benefit from more objectification by my husband? I am curious to know how you can gauge the amount or objectification within my relationship. It reads like a gross assumption of yours.


----------



## stumblealong

Trenton said:


> I looked at your study. I think it is missing one thing. Women don't know what they want sexually as they are conditioned more in regards to sex and confused by their mixed desires and conflicting feelings towards what they read/hear/see/feel that they should be experiencing and what they actually read/hear/see/feel.
> 
> For example, they are conditioned to believe sex with men should be best. Yet, most don't orgasm during their first encounter with heterosexual sex, men orgasm quickly and in different ways that do not jive well with a woman's sexuality. The two are mismatched with the man easily getting off and the woman often, if with an inexperienced or impatient man, left with nothing but an emotional enjoyment (if that).
> 
> In other words, it's more complicated for women. Their confusion is far more reasonable than women or men give them credit for when it comes to sexuality and the enjoyment of their sexuality. This is similar in other areas too.


:iagree: Well put!


----------



## Deejo

MGirl said:


> :iagree::iagree:
> 
> Deejo- Best response I've heard in a long time, my hat goes off to you.


ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED??!!


----------



## chillymorn

Trenton said:


> I am all for understanding. I wonder how many who cite the biology excuse actually know very much about it. This is just a curiosity, you personally may very well be a Biologist! Regardless, I am not for citing an overused or cherry picked excuse without anything but anecdotal evidence.
> 
> I am so sick of this "higher status" male thing. Perhaps it is a convenient motivator for men to reach goals of theirs but it undermines the better things about our humanity...such as compassion, connection and the care of one another and the world. You see, we are capable of these things and yet many of these arguments cater towards reverse evolutionary thinking. Biology, evolution...great! Let's now work on evolving forward.
> 
> My husband is better at me in many things. I would say he is my polar opposite in personality. Could this have something to do with his male biology? Absolutely but certainly not completely. He does make me feel safe and allows me to be the self that I struggle with being but very much want to be. It has nothing to do with "higher status" as was suggested, as was my point.
> 
> I looked at your study. I think it is missing one thing. Women don't know what they want sexually as they are conditioned more in regards to sex and confused by their mixed desires and conflicting feelings towards what they read/hear/see/feel that they should be experiencing and what they actually read/hear/see/feel.
> 
> For example, they are conditioned to believe sex with men should be best. Yet, most don't orgasm during their first encounter with heterosexual sex, men orgasm quickly and in different ways that do not jive well with a woman's sexuality. The two are mismatched with the man easily getting off and the woman often, if with an inexperienced or impatient man, left with nothing but an emotional enjoyment (if that).
> 
> In other words, it's more complicated for women. Their confusion is far more reasonable than women or men give them credit for when it comes to sexuality and the enjoyment of their sexuality. This is similar in other areas too.


conditioned by whom?


----------



## Deejo

Amplexor said:


> At precisely 03:35:21 PM Friday 29 April 2011 Geneva Time the thread becomes self aware and self sustaining. It is now alive!!


I say we dust off and nuke the site from orbit ... it's the only way to be sure.


----------



## ManDup

Trenton said:


> I just had to add...how can you possibly know that I would benefit from more objectification by my husband? I am curious to know how you can gauge the amount or objectification within my relationship. It reads like a gross assumption of yours.


It was just a throwaway joke line. But in general, men don't realize that women like sex a good bit rougher than they generally get it. Many like to be called s lut, have their hair pulled, be held down, etc. But men, who I assure you are equally confused about sex, have been raised to believe that you should be ever so gentle with women, and treat them like delicate flowers. 

All I know is, I denied my gf (now wife) sex for a while when I first met her (which implies a sort of preselection/high status), and applied some the the other manning up principles to the relationship in general, and she orgasmed the instant of contact that first time. We both went on to have the best sex of our lives from then on, virtually every time. And we're old.


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove

ManDup said:


> As I tried to say before, that's kind of a mixed bag. I know many many guys, myself included, who were overall TOO NICE to their women, catering to their every desire, but emasculating themselves in the process. Their reward for it was to have the woman bored, and eventually for her to stray. The explanation that biologically, women are generally _attracted_ to a man of higher status than her, seems to fit this well.
> 
> If a man is a complete doormat, she has no respect for him. So to give in to every little whim of a woman is a mistake. So continuing some behavior that might not please the woman is a necessary evil. How is a man going to protect the woman if he can't even stand up to her sometimes? I'm talking about primal instincts here, not a couple of hundred years of civilization, which hasn't made a dent in a psyche formed by millions of years of evolution.
> 
> On the other hand, women long-term look for a man who gives them _comfort_ in the relationship, because he will make a good father to the kids, etc., rather than the alpha *******, who might have high status and good genes, and is _attractive_ but isn't going to stick around. So if a man has no thought for the woman, completely treats her as an object, walks all over her, is never vulnerable, she will eventually be so uncomfortable that she has to leave.
> 
> The best man balances comfort and attraction. He's a little bit playful *******, a little bit fawning dweeb. That's me, but I'm taken.
> 
> Incidentally, in answer to the objection that men _never_ deny their urges, I was in a horrible marriage for 20 years and never stepped out. I stood it as long as I could, for the kids, etc., until she blatantly took up with another woman, whom she refused to quit. Even then, though I started dating after the separation, I still denied myself women who were literally grinding on my lap, until the divorce was done.


But one size doesn't fit all.

I am the "higher status" person in my marriage if you're talking comfort, financial, etc. I earn the most, do the most and comfort and support the most.

This is what he SAID he wanted when he met me. Well he has it.

So why the need to oogle other women?

He got what he wanted but now is doing nothing to keep it - in fact, just the opposite - seems determined to push it out the door.

I may have to take some drastic action - I don't want to - but he's not really giving me any choice.


----------



## Trenton

chillymorn said:


> conditioned by whom?


Society & culture is the easiest answer but this obviously makes up others, themselves, etc.


----------



## Runs like Dog

You may as well ask 'what is love'? Security means almost anything if you ask enough people.


----------



## Trenton

ManDup said:


> It was just a throwaway joke line. But in general, men don't realize that women like sex a good bit rougher than they generally get it. Many like to be called s lut, have their hair pulled, be held down, etc. But men, who I assure you are equally confused about sex, have been raised to believe that you should be ever so gentle with women, and treat them like delicate flowers.
> 
> All I know is, I denied my gf (now wife) sex for a while when I first met her (which implies a sort of preselection/high status), and applied some the the other manning up principles to the relationship in general, and she orgasmed the instant of contact that first time. We both went on to have the best sex of our lives from then on, virtually every time. And we're old.


Oh. I missed it. 

We have our share of rough sex, I'm open about my desires even if sometimes I'm confused as to what they are exactly. I'd rate my sex life as very good and it always has been.

I will admit that my husband refused to have sex with me for the first few months of dating (we've been married 14 years) and this did endear him to me. Although at first I thought this meant he must be gay. *snicker* 

After our relationship became more serious, I thought it must have taken a lot of control and I was previously with guys who couldn't keep it in their pants. It made him stand out. It didn't make me think he could be selective, it made me think he had great self control and I respected and admired this.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo said:


> ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED??!!


I wasn't. You tell me I bring my own issues and apply them. What my husband does is exactly what the guys here admitted to doing. So I wasn't saying "all men" or lumping them. They flat out admitted it. So, how again was that my "personal" issue?
It wasn't. While were are on that subject though, if people didn't have personal issues, none of us would be here. Doh!


----------



## Deejo

mommy22 said:


> Okay... Get ready for a soapbox...:soapbox::rant: Alright. There's often a double standard here. I'll use my sister in law as an example. She a very very jealous person. She sees every woman as competition and watches her husband like a hawk if he so much as looks in the wrong direction. Other women are the enemy. However, every time I see her she has a plunging neckline with her breasts hanging out and very short skirts. So here's what I don't understand... She gets mad at her hubby for looking but isnt' she doing the same thing the other women are doing in attracting the opposite sex?? I'm sorry, but if you show off the goods, guys can't help but look. I mean, women can't help but look. It's right there in your face.
> 
> Anyway, that's a bit of a segue but my point being... make sure if you complain about this, you aren't a perpetrator as well. If you aren't showing off the goods for other men but still looking great for your man then I think you have the right to be upset if your man ogles other women. But... if you dress to show it off (thus luring other men to look in your direction and tick other wives off) then isn't it kinda reaping what you sow??? :soapbox::rant:
> 
> Don't wanna make anyone upset and not insinuating these things about anyone in the thread. I have no idea how posters carry themselves but this is one of those double standards that bugs me. I don't think it's fair to the men either. I can't help but look when I see half of a woman's boobs. How's a man supposed to react??:scratchhead:


I get the same kind of reaction from both sexes when I go out wearing my assless chaps. They just happen to be very comfortable ...
I should be able to wear what I wish to without the threat of judgement or being objectified.


----------



## Deejo

The assless chaps play well at my pole dancing class ...

I simply presume that men in North America that look completely comfortable in their grape smuggling Speedos, are probably not North American.

It's well documented that Europeans think our baggy mens swimwear that goes to the knees is equally ridiculous. I recall seeing a reference, that some beaches in Europe forbid what is standard fare over here.

And on the note of beaches ... somebody mentioned this previously. A guy may see a bikini body flash past his vision, look, and realize that it is a young girl ... that gets red-flagged in the brain and rejected. 

This convo got very muddled after page 23 ...


----------



## Runs like Dog

I make no apologies. Call it what you want; chivalry, chauvinism, horn doggery, I don't care.


----------



## Conrad

Pole Dancing?

I thought you were taking yoga with MisterNiceGuy!



Deejo said:


> The assless chaps play well at my pole dancing class ...
> 
> I simply presume that men in North America that look completely comfortable in their grape smuggling Speedos, are probably not North American.
> 
> It's well documented that Europeans think our baggy mens swimwear that goes to the knees is equally ridiculous. I recall seeing a reference, that some beaches in Europe forbid what is standard fare over here.
> 
> And on the note of beaches ... somebody mentioned this previously. A guy may see a bikini body flash past his vision, look, and realize that it is a young girl ... that gets red-flagged in the brain and rejected.
> 
> This convo got very muddled after page 23 ...


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Deejo said:


> It's well documented that Europeans think our baggy mens swimwear that goes to the knees is equally ridiculous. I recall seeing a reference, that some beaches in Europe forbid what is standard fare over here.


I agree with your words Mommy22 about how us women dress, a responsibility there. Or let us not judge the man. 

I personally like a little to the imagination. I would rather see a guy on the beach in baggie swim trunks than wearing something so revealing he is showing off his size --cause then I feel he is "seeking attention" from the ladies and that takes him down a few notches in my book.


----------



## franklinfx

SimplyAmorous said:


> I agree with your words Mommy22 about how us women dress, a responsibility there. Or let us not judge the man.
> 
> I personally like a little to the imagination. I would rather see a guy on the beach in baggie swim trunks than wearing something so revealing he is showing off his size --cause then I feel he is "seeking attention" from the ladies and that takes him down a few notches in my book.


 I agree. I wear "banana hamock"underwear (4 support) but I would never show my stuff at the beach, ickth guys are hideous, nobody wants to see that junk!


----------



## jmbr

I have just read the first post, and not all replies.

I was taught by my mother and my father to stare at women, starting from 5 years old. Out here you can have a hot lady pass through and all men literally turning their heads to watch.

Got this automatic reflection, where I'm evaluating a woman by her looks, atractiveness and physical features, each time I see one, older, younger, slimmer, fatter, does not matter. I never imagine actually having sex with her, but it is sexual in nature, I cannot deny it. I suppose I am evaluating what my chances would be like, and how it would be, but it's not exactly a rational thing. 

Now if I could train my eyes to not stare fixedly at a pair of hot legs or breasts, I'd be very happy.


----------



## Trenton

Men, embrace your biology and then recognize the response. 

Lesson Learned from whole thread? Don't be a turd.


----------



## okeydokie

Trenton said:


> Men, embrace your biology and then recognize the response.
> 
> Lesson Learned from whole thread? Don't be a turd.


right click, save :rofl:


----------



## Runs like Dog

He's wearing a buttondown shirt and flipflops? He should get kicked in the face just for being a brodude.


----------



## Runs like Dog

And by the by Trenton, as long as we're embracing our destiny, feel free to stand there as I drive away after waiting 20 minutes for you to get your ass in the car, for fairness' sake.


----------



## Deejo

Trenton said:


> Lesson Learned from whole thread? Don't be a turd.


I think we simply ended up where we started. Lesson is:

Don't get caught being a turd. And when your SO invariably tries to trap you by saying "Wow, did you see that girl?"
Stare her straight in the eyes and say, "I'm sorry, I hadn't noticed, my attention was focused elsewhere. Then look your partner up and down, and lick your lips. (Lip licking is optional)


----------



## Trenton

Runs like Dog said:


> And by the by Trenton, as long as we're embracing our destiny, feel free to stand there as I drive away after waiting 20 minutes for you to get your ass in the car, for fairness' sake.


pfft tell that to my other half...I am always waiting for him to get in the car!


----------



## Runs like Dog

No, that's a chick thing. And pity the man who hurries her along.


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove

Runs like Dog said:


> He's wearing a buttondown shirt and flipflops? He should get kicked in the face just for being a brodude.


LOTS of men dress this way - doesn't attract me - I find it boring.


----------



## jmbr

Deejo said:


> I think we simply ended up where we started. Lesson is:
> 
> Don't get caught being a turd. And when your SO invariably tries to trap you by saying "Wow, did you see that girl?"
> Stare her straight in the eyes and say, "I'm sorry, I hadn't noticed, my attention was focused elsewhere. Then look your partner up and down, and lick your lips. (Lip licking is optional)



I actually take the initiative and say to her (literal translation, funny how ridiculous it sounds in english) "wow, She's good as corn".

Really gets to her nerves, but then She knows I'm not serious.

Figure it's always better than to pretend you're not looking when you actually are. 

Besides, She does the same, if not worse.


----------



## stumblealong

Deejo said:


> I think we simply ended up where we started. Lesson is:
> 
> Don't get caught being a turd. And when your SO invariably tries to trap you by saying "Wow, did you see that girl?"
> Stare her straight in the eyes and say, "I'm sorry, I hadn't noticed, my attention was focused elsewhere. Then look your partner up and down, and lick your lips. (Lip licking is optional)


I could handle this!  Of course i never ask this question. No need to draw his attention further away from me!


----------



## nice777guy

Deejo said:


> The assless chaps play well at my pole dancing class ...
> 
> I simply presume that men in North America that look completely comfortable in their grape smuggling Speedos, are probably not North American.
> 
> It's well documented that Europeans think our baggy mens swimwear that goes to the knees is equally ridiculous. I recall seeing a reference, that some beaches in Europe forbid what is standard fare over here.
> 
> And on the note of beaches ... somebody mentioned this previously. A guy may see a bikini body flash past his vision, look, and realize that it is a young girl ... that gets red-flagged in the brain and rejected.
> 
> This convo got very muddled after page 23 ...


Chaps - by default - are assless.

Chaps - with a covering where the ass is - are really just pants.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

nice777guy said:


> Chaps - by default - are assless.
> 
> Chaps - with a covering where the ass is - are really just pants.


You really need to have this as your tag line. You have schooled me in the chaps definition as well and eventually somebody will make some reference to Prince and well, you will have to explain again.
On a side note, Conrad should really consider putting "Nice Guy and the Man Up Reference" on his tag line as that seems to be his response to the whipped male souls who come in to the Men's Clubhouse.


----------



## nice777guy

Brennan said:


> You really need to have this as your tag line. You have schooled me in the chaps definition as well and eventually somebody will make some reference to Prince and well, you will have to explain again.
> On a side note, Conrad should really consider putting "Nice Guy and the Man Up Reference" on his tag line as that seems to be his response to the whipped male souls who come in to the Men's Clubhouse.


Spent WAAAY too many nights debating the chaps topic in college. 

Could have written a thesis on it...


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

nice777guy said:


> Spent WAAAY too many nights debating the chaps topic in college.
> 
> Could have written a thesis on it...


Um, why?


----------



## nice777guy

Brennan said:


> Um, why?


I really don't know.

Pabst Blue Ribbon, maybe?


----------



## Deejo

nice777guy said:


> Chaps - by default - are assless.
> 
> Chaps - with a covering where the ass is - are really just pants.


Got it ... it's like saying "PIN number." You don't need number, it's inferred in the acronym, Personal Identification Number.

I appreciate your having thought this through ...


----------



## nice777guy

Deejo said:


> Got it ... it's like saying "PIN number." You don't need number, it's inferred in the acronym, Personal Identification Number.
> 
> I appreciate your having thought this through ...


That's the kind of education you get at a state liberal arts school!


----------



## stumblealong

:rofl::rofl::rofl:
too funny!


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

stumblealong said:


> :rofl::rofl::rofl:
> too funny!


Jesus, now I have an image of NG running around drunk off of his uncovered butt. Hopefully this was done in the comfort of your dorm hall and not a fraternity house.


----------



## nice777guy

Brennan said:


> Jesus, now I have an image of NG running around drunk off of his uncovered butt. Hopefully this was done in the comfort of your dorm hall and not a fraternity house.


I'll never tell!


----------



## tacoma

Umm..no and I find all the positive guy replies kinda weird.

When I see/meet an attractive woman I think "She`s hot" but that`s about as far as it gets.

I don`t imagine myself having sex with her or even think about having sex with her.
I don`t even know her.

I don`t compare the assets of other women with those of my wife.

I dunno, am I supposed to?


----------



## bingofuel

When I see an attractive woman, I don't envision sex right away. I envision her scantily clad and "dancing" to Danzig's "She Rides". If I have any interactions with her (someone at work etc..) Then I may think about it. Usually I can snap myself out of it by thinking about how much emotional baggage she is hauling, and how high maintenence she is.
*bingo fumbles at his chest where his heart used to be


For those who are not familiar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qC-W0_cv85E


----------



## Trenton

bingofuel said:


> When I see an attractive woman, I don't envision sex right away. I envision her scantily clad and "dancing" to Danzig's "She Rides". If I have any interactions with her (someone at work etc..) Then I may think about it. Usually I can snap myself out of it by thinking about how much emotional baggage she is hauling, and how high maintenence she is.
> *bingo fumbles at his chest where his heart used to be
> 
> 
> For those who are not familiar
> YouTube - DANZIG-SHE RIDES


Love "She Rides" and most Danzig although I can't say I associate it with that video at all. Glenn is from Jersey after all as am I. I even saw them in 2009 at the Starland ballroom in Jersey. Yet, important to note that he's never had any longterm relationship or children. He's old and alone...wondering how being a Misfit didn't serve him. If you want something you do the time.


----------



## stumblealong

tacoma said:


> Umm..no and I find all the positive guy replies kinda weird.
> 
> When I see/meet an attractive woman I think "She`s hot" but that`s about as far as it gets.
> 
> I don`t imagine myself having sex with her or even think about having sex with her.
> I don`t even know her.
> 
> I don`t compare the assets of other women with those of my wife.
> 
> I dunno, am I supposed to?


Ahhhh...don't know if your "supposed to" but glad you don't consider yourself a rarity! Do you automatically "categorize?" Like she's a yes, no, maybe?


----------



## bingofuel

Trenton said:


> Love "She Rides" and most Danzig although I can't say I associate it with that video at all. Glenn is from Jersey after all as am I. I even saw them in 2009 at the Starland ballroom in Jersey. Yet, important to note that he's never had any longterm relationship or children. He's old and alone...wondering how being a Misfit didn't serve him. If you want something you do the time.


LOL Trenton! I wasn't speaking to the integrity of the singer! Only that the song has an "exotic" flair to it perfect for "R-rated" imagination! The "X-rated" kind for me requires deeper fare.


----------



## ManDup

habitmaker said:


> Now I'm not saying these three things will get a guy to stop looking at a woman as she walks by. I'm not saying that he'll want you even if you are not attractive. I *am *saying that there are other things that play into a man wanting to be with and being faithful to a woman.
> 
> What you win him with is what you have to keep him with...


Absolutely spot on. It is these "other things" that keep us from running off with that attractive woman. What's more attractive to you, ladies? quick glance - "I guess I don't stand a chance with that hottie, I guess I'm stuck with what I've got." vs "There's a hot lady. I wonder how she is at sex? She might be lousy. I wonder if she's a *****? Probably. I sure am happy with what I have. And horny."
Notice that in one case he's thinking of having sex with her, and in the other he's not.

If your man is truly self-confident, there's no reason he won't be thinking the latter. Just because we COULD bang that hottie, doesn't mean we WOULD if we had the chance. Sometimes we really do stay for reasons of our own character.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

How about my wife is smokin hot, I won't even give anything else a passing thought? There's an option. Instead I am supposed to feel honored that he could nail somebody else but doesn't? How about he should feel honored that I could nail somebody else but doesn't? This whole thread is rife with generalzations that women should just feel lucky that he is "sticking" with her as if we don't have options.


----------



## ManDup

Brennan said:


> How about my wife is smokin hot, I won't even give anything else a passing thought? There's an option. Instead I am supposed to feel honored that he could nail somebody else but doesn't? How about he should feel honored that I could nail somebody else but doesn't? This whole thread is rife with generalzations that women should just feel lucky that he is "sticking" with her as if we don't have options.


ALL women have options, at least for a P&D. We all stay together through constant conscious choice, against our "nature". The woman's ability to retain a man who has options is an asset. If I didn't give other women a passing thought, I'd probably be gay or something. The same exact thing that attracted me to my wife attracts me to other women. It's a weeding out process, where I see the initial attraction, then I begin to look for other good qualities, until I realize my "target" woman falls within the bell-curve of women who are suitable to marry. 

There are doubtless thousands of them; I've picked this one to love. That the "initial attraction" mechanism doesn't just shut off once I'm married is simply built into my biology. It's certainly not a conscious choice. Yes, I could lie to my wife and say it's gone, but it's still not. You can find all this offensive if you like, or you can learn from it. I try to understand how women think and learn from that, rather than tell them how I would prefer it to be.

Edit:
Note your language: "there's an option". For me, that's not actually an option. Now what?


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

ManDup said:


> ALL women have options, at least for a P&D. We all stay together through constant conscious choice, against our "nature". The woman's ability to retain a man who has options is an asset. If I didn't give other women a passing thought, I'd probably be gay or something. The same exact thing that attracted me to my wife attracts me to other women. It's a weeding out process, where I see the initial attraction, then I begin to look for other good qualities, until I realize my "target" woman falls within the bell-curve of women who are suitable to marry.
> 
> There are doubtless thousands of them; I've picked this one to love. That the "initial attraction" mechanism doesn't just shut off once I'm married is simply built into my biology. It's certainly not a conscious choice. Yes, I could lie to my wife and say it's gone, but it's still not. You can find all this offensive if you like, or you can learn from it. I try to understand how women think and learn from that, rather than tell them how I would prefer it to be.
> 
> Edit:
> Note your language: "there's an option". For me, that's not actually an option. Now what?


I understand what you are saying, I really do. It is biology, you can't help it, etc. I understand it but I don't agree with it. Plenty of biological things women can control.
Having said that, for me, this behavior is hurtful. He makes a choice everyday to act like this, I see it and it takes a little bit more away from me and our relationship. It's his choice. My choice? I am planning my exit.


----------



## ManDup

Brennan said:


> It's his choice. My choice? I am planning my exit.


I assume you've told him you're leaving, and given him a deadline, etc. Or are you like the rest of the stories we hear about here, where you hem and haw for months and years, and then "I don't know, it just happened." Marry a gay man next time. He won't ever think about other women. 

OTOH, if this is your ONLY issue, I'd say you have it pretty good. If that's the case, and you really can't stand it and you want to get his goat rather than the other way around, embrace and extend. Agree and amplify. Start carrying on with him, about those same women. "Oh, you're right honey. She's so hot. Go do her now." I promise he won't know what to think. Don't do it spitefully, but with amused mastery.

My guess is that he does it to provoke a reaction. It's not healthy, but it clearly gets what he's after. After you get his goat, then maybe you can talk about for reals for reals why he does this, and get down to a solution that works for both of you. I.e., you make a real effort to react to him in positive ways about the things he really cares about (guitar, cars, whatever, not other women). And your reactions obviously don't have to be negative, but that's what he's getting action with. You're the only one you can change, so go to it. Keep doing what your doing to keep getting what you're getting.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Man,
No this is not the only issue, not by a long shot.
I appreciate your input though. This topic is rather raw for me.


----------



## ManDup

How to Stare at a Beautiful Woman -- Without Creeping Her Out | | AlterNet
Apparently it's also looked down upon by the ****s who are wearing open tops.


----------



## AFEH

ManDup said:


> Apparently it's also looked down upon by the ****s who are wearing open tops.


Best ignored. Strangely enough they look miffed.

Bob


----------



## HappyAtLast

luckyman said:


> No. The thought does not just "appear." I have to allow the thought process to develop, which I don't do anymore. I am attracted to my wife and devoted to her. What use is fantasizing about other women? If I engage in such thoughts they usually lead to more of the same and then I am objectifying women and I don't like the idea of that. I think about having sex with my wife quite a bit, but sexual thoughts about other women, even though I could "get away" with them are not something I entertain.
> 
> It is a little discouraging to think that other men are sizing my wife up like this.


Your wife is one lucky woman....and you seem like a true gentleman...


----------



## chillymorn

if they are adversitising then look all you want.

but if not then be respectfull.

when your with your wife be respectfull of her feelings and TRY not to look.


women who dress provocativley (spelling?) and then ***** about men looking are just mad your not great looking or make the grade for her.


----------



## soccermom

Wow, what a great thread...stublealong, i am so grateful you started this, it is eye opening.

My hubby started gawking after we got married and my self esteem took a huge dump. This man REFUSED sex from me over and over, but still would gawk or make sounds at other women. Made me feel like a piece of s***...

Somewhere along the ling I WOKE UP...and put my foot down to his disrespectful behavior. I'm done with it. I deserve to be honored by my man and appreciated. I called him on it, told him how f***** it made me feel. At first the denials (still denies) and downright lies...and defensiveness that made me feel like I was crazy for even thinking he did, YA RIGHT! 

This behavior can basically push a women to the edge of having an affair, so she can feel WANTED and DESIRED...THAT is where your gawking and looking can push us.

I am blessed with good looks and a great body it's BS that my man has such a little ego he has to do this. 

When a woman is offering sex ALL THE TIME ie: giving glorious head during the day (we work out of our home) and is a high libido gal, there is no excuse for this BS. It's a habit and as some men with integrity on here have stated, they can CHOOSE to control how far it goes and what they do in front of their women.

Thanks again SA for a great thread.


----------



## turmoil

I just posted in another thread. I read a LOT of this one, and feel like adding a few comments.

*Ogling,* simply put-makes me feel bad. If you care about me, try your best not to make me feel bad.

The main feeling that I have is that it feels very disrespectful. *Why?* Because to me, sex is very important. I am sharing it with you and only you, *because I choose you*. *I could choose other men, but I choose you.* You ogling other women is communicating: even though I have this great woman, I'm a bit greedy and I'm making it known. 

I don't think you're going to cheat and we certainly have a lot of sex (thank god) because I love having sex with you, so there's no need to get greedy. Trust me, I'd love it even more than every day if we had the time.

I do understand you will be attracted to other women. I can physically be attracted to other men. However, I make a choice not to let my mind go there-I just don’t entertain it. Temptation is exactly that-temptation, and I don't believe in playing with it. It's not that I ignore other men and pretend they don't exist. It's that I choose not to fantasize about them-physically *or emotionally.* I’ve got a man who can satisfy me. For you men who say "all men categorize". Fine. I get it, I'm sure I do too (hmm, wonder what life with him would be?). But after categorization, be done, don't make the woman know how you categorized them and for god's sakes, if the categorizing is so biological, you won't need to envision having sex with them to determine if they actually are "do-able".

I refuse to shake my reluctance to accept that men are just visual creatures who have no management over their desire. I think it's a societal cop-out, all the way. *Men have been allowed to do it because women had no social power prior to now. Men, we don’t need you financially any more and you’ll begin to see that.* I do believe your behaviors will change. And now that we can look younger at the age of 50, we can do it for longer if we so choose.

The bottom line is that ogling feels disrespectful and I don't think it's safe because *healthy *monogamy is difficult. That's my belief-wrong or not. I am not requesting that you men cease talking to/looking at other women as the people that they are. Categorizing their beauty is fine.* I just expect you to avoid displaying your signaling of lust, as a signal is an invitation and it's disrespectful.*

With my current bf, I have no choice but to begin ogling other men. It is my last attempt to help you men understand what the behavior does to anyone, male or female. I feel I must reflect the behavior back to you through actual experience. I just don't accept the double standard.

I’m a hard a** about it. I know. I am not abnormally jealous but this issue bothers me greatly. I understand monogamy is difficult. And, I’m not unfair. I’m happy to work on any other “female” issue I/we have. I don’t use men for $, I’m not shallow, and I don’t expect men to take care of me [but if you think it’s sexy to do so-I will too]. I’m just about equity. And for god's sake's, I want to keep having wonderful sex with you every day/minute/hour (LOVE my 30s). Refraining from ogling is a simple request. Throughout life, I've come to understand my place that I'm very beautiful, sexy, smart, nurturing, loyal and worth it...and your friends know it.


----------



## Locard

This is funny. Yes, upon looking at a woman the first thought process is......Hit it or Not....... This can be termed many different ways but that is the basics of it. 

Who said you have to OOGLE? Most men can do this in .5 seconds driving the opposite direction at 55MPH. 

This is no way means that man WOULD given the opportunity. I wonder how many wives upon knowing this would suddenly recover their lost sex drive.....


----------



## Locard

Hmm, I wonder how GIRRLLLL POWER would stand up to a bayonet charge. As a veteran, don't take that the wrong way or an affront to our service women as it is not mean to be as they have also sacrificed. 

What is trubling how quickly mans sacrifices and contributions for society have be tosed into the PC trashcan under the delusion of girl power/ feminism. Add in divorce theft and yeah, guys have it great!


----------



## AFEH

turmoil said:


> I just posted in another thread. I read a LOT of this one, and feel like adding a few comments.
> 
> *Ogling,* simply put-makes me feel bad. If you care about me, try your best not to make me feel bad.
> 
> The main feeling that I have is that it feels very disrespectful. *Why?* Because to me, sex is very important. I am sharing it with you and only you, *because I choose you*. *I could choose other men, but I choose you.* You ogling other women is communicating: even though I have this great woman, I'm a bit greedy and I'm making it known.
> 
> I don't think you're going to cheat and we certainly have a lot of sex (thank god) because I love having sex with you, so there's no need to get greedy. Trust me, I'd love it even more than every day if we had the time.
> 
> I do understand you will be attracted to other women. I can physically be attracted to other men. However, I make a choice not to let my mind go there-I just don’t entertain it. Temptation is exactly that-temptation, and I don't believe in playing with it. It's not that I ignore other men and pretend they don't exist. It's that I choose not to fantasize about them-physically *or emotionally.* I’ve got a man who can satisfy me. For you men who say "all men categorize". Fine. I get it, I'm sure I do too (hmm, wonder what life with him would be?). But after categorization, be done, don't make the woman know how you categorized them and for god's sakes, if the categorizing is so biological, you won't need to envision having sex with them to determine if they actually are "do-able".
> 
> I refuse to shake my reluctance to accept that men are just visual creatures who have no management over their desire. I think it's a societal cop-out, all the way. *Men have been allowed to do it because women had no social power prior to now. Men, we don’t need you financially any more and you’ll begin to see that.* I do believe your behaviors will change. And now that we can look younger at the age of 50, we can do it for longer if we so choose.
> 
> The bottom line is that ogling feels disrespectful and I don't think it's safe because *healthy *monogamy is difficult. That's my belief-wrong or not. I am not requesting that you men cease talking to/looking at other women as the people that they are. Categorizing their beauty is fine.* I just expect you to avoid displaying your signaling of lust, as a signal is an invitation and it's disrespectful.*
> 
> With my current bf, I have no choice but to begin ogling other men. It is my last attempt to help you men understand what the behavior does to anyone, male or female. I feel I must reflect the behavior back to you through actual experience. I just don't accept the double standard.
> 
> I’m a hard a** about it. I know. I am not abnormally jealous but this issue bothers me greatly. I understand monogamy is difficult. And, I’m not unfair. I’m happy to work on any other “female” issue I/we have. I don’t use men for $, I’m not shallow, and I don’t expect men to take care of me [but if you think it’s sexy to do so-I will too]. I’m just about equity. And for god's sake's, I want to keep having wonderful sex with you every day/minute/hour (LOVE my 30s). Refraining from ogling is a simple request. Throughout life, I've come to understand my place that I'm very beautiful, sexy, smart, nurturing, loyal and worth it...and your friends know it.


Righto.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Locard said:


> Hmm, I wonder how GIRRLLLL POWER would stand up to a bayonet charge. As a veteran, don't take that the wrong way or an affront to our service women as it is not mean to be as they have also sacrificed.
> 
> What is trubling how quickly mans sacrifices and contributions for society have be tosed into the PC trashcan under the delusion of girl power/ feminism. Add in divorce theft and yeah, guys have it great!


Huh?


----------



## Runs like Dog

I must be wired differently. I see a woman, I see her general shape and height, age, put-together-ness how is she dressed, is she cleaned up. I look at her eyes and mouth and teeth, does she look angry, insane, can she smile. Is her hair clean. Does her scent give me a headache. Does she smoke. Is her voice pleasant or annoying. What do her nails look like, does she have man-hands. What kind of jewelery. Does the skin on her face match the texture of the skin on her neck and clavicle area. Are there tatts.

Yeah you think we're not paying attention. You've been cataloged, honey.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Runs like Dog said:


> I must be wired differently. I see a woman, I see her general shape and height, age, put-together-ness how is she dressed, is she cleaned up. I look at her eyes and mouth and teeth, does she look angry, insane, can she smile. Is her hair clean. Does her scent give me a headache. Does she smoke. Is her voice pleasant or annoying. What do her nails look like, does she have man-hands. What kind of jewelery. Does the skin on her face match the texture of the skin on her neck and clavicle area. Are there tatts.
> 
> Yeah you think we're not paying attention. You've been cataloged, honey.


You're a courtroom sketch artist, aren't you?


----------



## turmoil

> Hmm, I wonder how GIRRLLLL POWER would stand up to a bayonet charge. As a veteran, don't take that the wrong way or an affront to our service women as it is not mean to be as they have also sacrificed.
> 
> What is trubling how quickly mans sacrifices and contributions for society have be tosed into the PC trashcan under the delusion of girl power/ feminism. Add in divorce theft and yeah, guys have it great!


*Locard:*
Using terms like GIRLLL POWERRR (though funny, I'm laughing), let's be real...it's a way to try to easily get a bunch of men on your side and throw me into the feminist category. And it's detracting from the issue. What's the big deal not to ogle?

Tell me what women claim is biological that they do *that hurts your feelings * and I'll be glad to work on it. 

And bring out the firing squad, I'm fit and I can be trained. But I won't have to use my physical skills. I'll talk my way out of it. 

Wow, I totally sound like a man.


----------



## Locard

Its a start! No hard feelings!

For those who are wondering, I was taking issue with the fact that men are not needed anymore. I probably took it too hard! It is just a touchy subject with men these days. Men and masculinity have been marginalized over and over. 

I supose both men and woman got plent to complain about!

If you are really wondering what girls claim is biological and hurts your feelings, well, keep reading this forum!!!!!!


----------



## southbound

stumblealong said:


> In the last few days, for some reason a topic keeps coming up. A guy in my class said that every guy when seeing an attractive chic, or even a not so attractive chick, his first thoughts are of having sex with her. Then in another conversation, with a totally different person at a different place said basically the same thing, that men think about having sex with just about every female he comes in contact with.
> 
> I'm posting this to the men on this forum, because in reading these posts on here for over a year, I have really read what seems to be genuine nice guys and I wonder if all men, even the nice ones, think like this? And if so what does that mean to the woman in their life?
> 
> I can honestly say that when i see or meet a good looking guy, sex isn't the first thing that pops in my mind. For some odd reason I have to get to know the person a bit. And I am a woman that has a pretty decent sex drive that is currently not being met. I do have a female friend who says that when she sees an attractive guy, her first thoughts are of sex with him, but she is the only woman I know that has said this (or would admit to it).
> 
> I'm asking because my relationship is not doing so well, but to go out on the dating scene scares the crap outta me. Am I going to think that every time a guy glances at another female he's thinking of getting into her pants? Is it just a fleeting thought that doesn't mean anything? My man is not interested in having sex with me, but when he sees other women does he want to have sex with them? I asked him if he thought this way, of course he said 'no' but right now he's not going to say much that he thinks will tick me off.
> 
> This may be a silly and immature question, but I've only been in 2 relationships (one right after the other) and I've been in a relationship since I was 15, haven't had a lot of different experiences with different men. I mean i know men think of sex a lot, so do i, but think of having sex with every woman you come into contact with? What the heck does that mean?
> 
> Thanks in advance to any replies
> Stumble


Hmm. I'm a guy, and I like sex just as much as any man, I won't deny that, but I can't say my mind immediately goes to sex when i see an attractive woman. I do think about a man-woman interaction, however. I might imagine what it would be like first to talk with her or imagine what it would be like to be on a date with her, or to sit on the porch swing with my arms around her and her enjoying it. All that may be more weird, however, than if my thoughts went straight to sex.


----------



## heartsbeating

H and I were on our evening walk. Attractive woman was jogging on the other side of the street. I noticed her. I looked at him and saw he'd briefly glanced in that direction. I said something. He looked embarrassed and admitted that .......he hadn't even noticed her, instead he was admiring the parked car (that was in her line of vision) and started reeling off technicalities that I didn't understand. He's been researching this particular car and considering it for us.

He was ogling the car.


----------



## MGirl

heartsbreaking said:


> He was ogling the car.


WOOT! You found yourself a winner, heartsbreaking! Hold onto that one!


----------



## Entropy3000

heartsbreaking said:


> H and I were on our evening walk. Attractive woman was jogging on the other side of the street. I noticed her. I looked at him and saw he'd briefly glanced in that direction. I said something. He looked embarrassed and admitted that .......he hadn't even noticed her, instead he was admiring the parked car (that was in her line of vision) and started reeling off technicalities that I didn't understand. He's been researching this particular car and considering it for us.
> 
> He was ogling the car.


Was it an Audi R8?


OMG I would so hit that until its headlights rolled back into its hood.


----------



## Entropy3000

BTW, if there is a nicely built women going braless at the mall and it is chilly, I notice that. I make no apologies.

I do not ogle or stare or otherwise do anything disrespectful. But I am not freaking dead. My wife may have pointed it out to me anyway. I might, depending on our moods suggest that it was a bit chilly in the mall today. To which I might get a playful hit across my arm and chest.

I would not say to her "I would hit that". I am not dead and do not want to be any time soon.


----------



## heartsbeating

Entropy3000 said:


> I do not ogle or stare or otherwise do anything disrespectful. But I am not freaking dead. My wife may have pointed it our to me anyway. I might, depending on our moods suggest that it was a bit chilly in the mall today. To which I might get a playful hit across my arm and chest.
> 
> I would not say to her "I would hit that". I am not dead and do not want to be any time soon.


My H is like this. 

oh and I have no idea what kind of car it was! :scratchhead: I'm a bit useless in that area, sorry. It was white and had wheels.


----------



## heartsbeating

MGirl said:


> WOOT! You found yourself a winner, heartsbreaking! Hold onto that one!


I'm an idiot for even getting close to the edge with him/us but it's made us stronger and we did need to work on things and have the wake-up call for us to continue.

He is a winner, you're right :iagree:


----------



## Entropy3000

heartsbreaking said:


> My H is like this.
> 
> oh and I have no idea what kind of car it was! :scratchhead: I'm a bit useless in that area, sorry. *It was white and had wheels.*


That sounds soooo hot. LOL.


----------



## heartsbeating

Entropy3000 said:


> That sounds soooo hot. LOL.


----------



## Entropy3000

My wife would have understood a mistress more than my obsession with cars.

My real mistress was ... Rio Red. She was pampered and massaged. She was a snake. A V8 under the hood. She was blown. Under boost she took my breath away. Intoxicating. The windows were always down so I could hear her purr and breath. I spent hours under her. Some days I would gaze at her seductive curves ... and then when I could resist no more ... I would take her ... for a ride. The smell of the leather and fuel danced in my brain. This was a powerful machine that wanted to be riden hard. Stroking the gear shift as she revved from gear to gear ... she was totally into me.



Fast Forward ... I had to go NC. Yes I went through withdrawal.


----------



## kevint

luckyman said:


> No. The thought does not just "appear." I have to allow the thought process to develop, which I don't do anymore. I am attracted to my wife and devoted to her. What use is fantasizing about other women? If I engage in such thoughts they usually lead to more of the same and then I am objectifying women and I don't like the idea of that. I think about having sex with my wife quite a bit, but sexual thoughts about other women, even though I could "get away" with them are not something I entertain.
> 
> It is a little discouraging to think that other men are sizing my wife up like this.


bull****


----------



## Locard

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


----------



## Kevan

heartsbreaking said:


> H and I were on our evening walk. Attractive woman was jogging on the other side of the street. I noticed her. I looked at him and saw he'd briefly glanced in that direction. I said something. He looked embarrassed and admitted that .......he hadn't even noticed her, instead he was admiring the parked car (that was in her line of vision) and started reeling off technicalities that I didn't understand. He's been researching this particular car and considering it for us.
> 
> He was ogling the car.


Love it. 

Yeah, men like to look. The funny thing is that the women my wife thinks I would notice are not the ones that spark a response in me at all. She hasn't a clue what I find attractive in a woman...which is doubly ironic, because she's the pattern.


----------



## jayde

Well this has gone on a long time and I thought I'd finally chime in.

I've never ogled (sp?) women. I can appreciate a pretty girl who keeps herself well, carries herself well, a good sense of humor etc. But, never found myself jumping to thoughts of jumping her. About 8 months ago, we entered into a rough spot in our 18 year marriage. She started talking about what SHE needs from it, where SHE sees her life going, what SHE wants out of life (note: no mention of we/us). She even put the D word on the table a few times. 

This threw me for a loop and, got me to thinking about life after this marriage, should that happen. for the first time in 22 years, I thought that I might have to date - and WTF would THAT be like.

Needless to say, I am noticing women far more than I did just a few months ago. I guess it's my way of coping with what I thought could never, ever happen. Things in the marriage have improved and I'm hopeful . . . but still looking (and not touching).

FWIW . .


----------



## stumblealong

jayde said:


> This threw me for a loop and, got me to thinking about life after this marriage, should that happen. for the first time in 22 years, I thought that I might have to date - and WTF would THAT be like.
> 
> Needless to say, I am noticing women far more than I did just a few months ago. I guess it's my way of coping with what I thought could never, ever happen. Things in the marriage have improved and I'm hopeful . . . but still looking (and not touching).
> FWIW . .


Funny how when a relationship is on the downside...you notice people more...people you find attractive. I'm experiencing the same thing now too. Temptation...UGGG!


----------



## Runs like Dog

Female Russian polevaulters: very hot.


----------



## Deejo

stumblealong said:


> Funny how when a relationship is on the downside...you notice people more...people you find attractive. I'm experiencing the same thing now too. Temptation...UGGG!


Wasn't your relationship already on the ropes when you started this epic thread?

You indicated that you were nervous about dating. Don't be ...
You already have a Man Roadmap courtesy of TAM.


----------



## stumblealong

Deejo said:


> Wasn't your relationship already on the ropes when you started this epic thread?
> 
> You indicated that you were nervous about dating. Don't be ...
> You already have a Man Roadmap courtesy of TAM.


Oh yes, my relationship has been on the ropes for some time now, and yes dating REALLY scares me! This Man Roadmap does help me out...still nervous! But the thought of having some type of affection in my life excites me too! Nowadays I find myself thinking "I wonder how his arms would feel around me" when I see an attractive guy. Never used to let my thoughts go there...


----------



## Deejo

stumblealong said:


> Nowadays I find myself thinking "I wonder how his arms would feel around me" when I see an attractive guy. Never used to let my thoughts go there...


Like I said, the checklist works slower with women. It isn't sexual ... at least not to start with.

Congratulations on 'going there' it's the first step to being there. Life is too short to date badly.


----------



## stumblealong

Deejo said:


> Like I said, the checklist works slower with women. It isn't sexual ... at least not to start with.
> 
> Congratulations on 'going there' it's the first step to being there. Life is too short to date badly.


Thanks Deejo! Actually i've never really dated, went from my 1st relationship strait into this one. Life is too short to date badly, and I don't want to get suckered into another bad relationship, ya know. I think once I'm out of this, I'm not going to date right off anyway...i've never NOT been with a man since I was 15! I'm certainly not going to go out looking for a relationship at this point, but good grief I miss being touched by a man. I guess i will just go with the flow and see where this takes me


----------



## stumblealong

Oh, and if I let my mind "go there" what if my eyes "go there" too and I end up gettin caught lookin at his package! OMG the humiliation!


----------



## Deejo

Just give him an approving nod and a 'thumbs up'.


----------



## jayde

stumblealong said:


> Funny how when a relationship is on the downside...you notice people more...people you find attractive. I'm experiencing the same thing now too. Temptation...UGGG!


IT wasn't so much when the relationship was on the downside . . .it was more when the THREAT and/or Reality, from her, that she might end it all (and she wasn't talking 'we' or 'us' ending it) is when I started thinking about my future. 

And as I am not intending to be celibate, with or without her . . .

And to be honest, this has me a bit perplexed as well. Although waiting for trains, taxis, hanging on the beach, etc. has become much more entertaining : ) ANd my wife likes that I've lost some weight.


----------



## stumblealong

jayde said:


> IT wasn't so much when the relationship was on the downside . . .it was more when the THREAT and/or Reality, from her, that she might end it all (and she wasn't talking 'we' or 'us' ending it) is when I started thinking about my future.
> 
> And as I am not intending to be celibate, with or without her . . .
> 
> And to be honest, this has me a bit perplexed as well. Although waiting for trains, taxis, hanging on the beach, etc. has become much more entertaining : ) ANd my wife likes that I've lost some weight.


I hear ya! Congrats on losing weight! Me too! 

It was only when I knew the relationship is coming to an end that these thoughts emerged with me. Just like you it is the threat of being single that gets ya thinkin. 

It's a scary world out there, esp when you've basically been living in a closed box for 13yrs, yet it is exciting at the same time!

@Deejo: I will so keep the thumbs up in the back of my mind if i ever get caught:rofl:


----------



## Jellybeans

stumblealong said:


> Oh, and if I let my mind "go there" what if my eyes "go there" too and I end up gettin caught lookin at his package! OMG the humiliation!


I have done this before too. It's embarrassing! I wonder if they can tell. LOL.




Deejo said:


> Just give him an approving nod and a 'thumbs up'.


:rofl: 

(or a "thumbs down")


----------



## AFEH

Jellybeans said:


> I have done this before too. It's embarrassing! I wonder if they can tell. LOL.


It’s as obvious as when a man looks at your boobs! And it seems it’s sometimes totally involuntary and when the woman catches herself it’s very amusing. And when she sees you’ve seen her it’s even more amusing!


----------



## Jellybeans

AFEH said:


> It’s as obvious as when a man looks at your boobs! And it seems it’s sometimes totally involuntary and when the woman catches herself it’s very amusing. And when she sees you’ve seen her it’s even more amusing!



Hahahaha!


----------



## SimplyAmorous

AFEH said:


> It’s as obvious as when a man looks at your boobs! And it seems it’s sometimes totally involuntary and when the woman catches herself it’s very amusing. And when she sees you’ve seen her it’s even more amusing!


I don't think your marraige has to be on the ropes to notice the opposite sex at all. My marraige was more boring when I didn't notice these things too much, my life revolved around the kids.

It was all about an increase in Sex drive that made me start noticing more. I was pestering the crap out of my husband (thank God he liked it ) plus noticing more men, it just automatically came with the hormones, I felt like I was just born or something in the sexual sense, like I was only half awakened before. 

Every case is different. I have never been caught looking at any packages, ha ha But a few weeks ago at a Camp where my son works, I caught his room mate checking out my upper half and our eyes met right after - I just smiled.  Darn he was a hot young thing. 

My husband has absolutely zero concern, he is thrilled I am a dirty old woman cause it sure beats the Nun I used to be . He is the only one who gets taken for the ride, it is allll gooood in our house.


----------



## Jellybeans

SimplyAmorous said:


> My husband has absolutely zero concern, he is thrilled I am a dirty old woman


 I love this!


----------



## SimplyAmorous

And Jellybeans, I love him being a "dirty old man" too- cause his TEST is a little on the lower side for his age. I was sooo worried about this at one time, you have no idea, I worked myself up into a frenzy over it, crying about it. So his looking, noticing, in my mind proves his hormones are pumping "good enough" - it is a sign of HEALTH to me. I would accually be thrilled to tears if he had the appetite as some of these YOUNGER MEN. 

So It just "works" for us, I don't know, we are out of the box. 

Maybe we are not relatable but that is OK! Going to the "Gentleman's Club" this week, haven't been there in almost a year. Looking forward to it.  If it puts him in lusty overdrive that night, nothing could bring a brighter smile to my face.


----------



## Jellybeans

Hey if that works for you guys, then that is all that matters


----------



## Mrs. T

Stumble,
Men are beasts...but then aren't we all? 

Am I going to be one of the few women who will admit it? I am in a loving committed relationship but when I see an attractive man my mind wanders for 15 seconds or so...and if he possesses the "Deadly Three"...sexy eyes, a great smile and he smells delicious...then I probably think about him for a whole minute. It doesn't change the way I feel about my husband, and it surely doesn't mean that I would ever act on impulse. 
I've had periods of my life where I didn't think much about sex, and periods where I think about it often...our bodies and thoughts are always changing. I think men get a bad rap on the "always thinking about sex" subject. Most women think about it more than they might want to admit.


----------



## AFEH

A person who thinks they will go through life not thinking a person other than their spouse attractive is delusional. And a person who thinks their spouse should never find another attractive even more delusional. Simply because it would mean for every person in the world there is only one other person who they want to mate with.


----------



## Jellybeans

AFEH said:


> A person who thinks they will go through life not thinking a person other than their spouse attractive is delusional.


:iagree:


----------



## TwoDogs

stumblealong said:


> Nowadays I find myself thinking "I wonder how his arms would feel around me" when I see an attractive guy.


Lol, that's about as "physical" as my thoughts get when I see an attractive guy. But I have a wee thing for sexy forearms. 

The other day both SO and I noticed a hot young thing prancing along in short shorts and high-heeled boots... she had legs up to her neck. SO commented that she must be related to me (I'm also slim and long-legged) and we had the same boobs. I had to admit that I hadn't even noticed her boobs, I was too busy checking out her BOOTS.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Mrs. T said:


> Stumble,
> Men are beasts...but then aren't we all?
> 
> Am I going to be one of the few women who will admit it? I am in a loving committed relationship but when I see an attractive man my mind wanders for 15 seconds or so...and if he possesses the "Deadly Three"...sexy eyes, a great smile and he smells delicious...then I probably think about him for a whole minute. It doesn't change the way I feel about my husband, and it surely doesn't mean that I would ever act on impulse.


My wife went through a spell after our last two children about me glancing. I was never obvious or disrespectful, but did glance out of the corner of my eye. However, she was sensitive about it. She had not lost the weight from the kids, and coupled with stress and some problems in her family, had a real low self esteem. We talked about it and I worked very hard to reassure her. I was also extra careful around her. She was understanding and has become much more comfortable about it. She did say that an analogy I used was helpful to her:

Our marriage is like the house we built. It is something that we built together and I love it. Some parts sag in places they did not use to sag, and now that we have kids, we don’t use some rooms as often as we used to. But it is our house. When we visit friends, I look at their house and may comment on things I like. But that does not mean I want to trade houses, or get a new one. I love the house I have and the woman I have built it with. Any changes to be made would be made together.

As a side note, be very, very clear that you are comparing your marriage to a house, not your wife. She told me later that for the first couple seconds of my analogy, she thought that is where I was going with it. Needless to say, that would not have been helpful. Fortunately, she laughs and teases me about it now.


----------



## Jellybeans

I think men are MUCH more obvious about glancing at/checking out other women than women are when they check men out. LOL.


----------



## AFEH

Jellybeans said:


> I think men are MUCH more obvious about glancing at/checking out other women than women are when they check men out. LOL.


Women are sooooo much better at using their peripheral vision, reflections in windows, recognising the unspoken signals and messages ….


----------



## Lon

I've been thinking about this, and if someone takes the time and effort to work on their appearance isn't it good thing that we can appreciate it? Why should men be made to feel guilty because a woman may be good looking? If you can't appreciate beauty in this world you are doomed to misery.

On the other hand, when a man goes to some effort to make it obvious he's checking a woman out, isn't that really a way of making himself noticeable too? I guess this may be the real issue, if the woman notices his attention it is, in a sense, flirting. That's why I like porn, it allows me to explore my voyeuristic nature risk free.


----------



## AFEH

I reckon flirting is ok, a really a good fun thing to. Just as long as you don’t have an SO.


----------



## heartsbeating

Went to the park for a walk/jog with my H. Lots of people there for sports activities and many guys around. We paused to catch our breath. I looked up to take in the surroundings and saw eyes darting in our direction. I wondered if I was being categorized. This thread has messed with my head slightly!


----------



## Lon

heartsbreaking said:


> Went to the park for a walk/jog with my H. Lots of people there for sports activities and many guys around. We paused to catch our breath. I looked up to take in the surroundings and saw eyes darting in our direction. I wondered if I was being categorized. This thread has messed with my head slightly!


lol, yep you were cataloged alright. (if its any consolation, you have been a subject of the male's dirty mind since high school, so nothing in your environment has changed, you just got a dose of the red pill).


----------



## stumblealong

Mrs. T said:


> Stumble,
> Men are beasts...but then aren't we all?
> 
> Am I going to be one of the few women who will admit it? I am in a loving committed relationship but when I see an attractive man my mind wanders for 15 seconds or so...and if he possesses the "Deadly Three"...sexy eyes, a great smile and he smells delicious...then I probably think about him for a whole minute. It doesn't change the way I feel about my husband, and it surely doesn't mean that I would ever act on impulse.
> I've had periods of my life where I didn't think much about sex, and periods where I think about it often...our bodies and thoughts are always changing. I think men get a bad rap on the "always thinking about sex" subject. Most women think about it more than they might want to admit.


I'm thinking of sex quite often these days cuz I aint gettin none!! 

The dynamics in my relationship are so screwed up, the ol double standard. My man is so jealous it is just plain stupid. He is pretty much all I've known for my adult life, I'm 36 yrs old now and realizing how I've let him run my life. I cannot glance at a man, without catching all kinds of crap, so I have trained myself throughout the yrs to keep my eyes down when were together (which is not often anymore). Yet, he can stare at a woman a$$ the whole time she's walking away, and I have no right to be upset :scratchhead: In this learning process I'm goin through, I have come to the conclusion that it is not necessarily him finding another woman attractive, it is the disrespect and the double standard he doles out. This is not the only "it's alright for me to do it, but not you" in our relationship. 

Being here on TAM has shown me this relationship is NOT normal in his controlling behavior. His extreme jealousy has completely obliterated any love i had for him and I have been emotionally numb for yrs, and this 'sexual awakening' in me that has surfaced has also shown me that i have finally grown as a woman and will never let another man treat me this way again.


----------



## that_girl

Nice. lol. This explains my boss and his "standoffness" but his "scanning" when he sees me. lol.

I'm glad men look. I'd be upset if I wasn't worth looking at!!


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## nice777guy

Its usually just picturing you through a quick run of the entire Kama Sutra. Only lasts about 3 seconds. Sometimes a bit more...


----------



## uphillbattle

While I have not taken the time to read this entire thread, in awnsering the OP I will say I honestly don't think that very often anymore. I am too busy thinking about sex with my wife. I notice myself not thinking too much about the oppisite sex nearly as often as I used too (other than my wife).


----------



## RandomDude

Nowadays when I see a woman I compare her to the missus, and if she has a feature that I would like my missus to have (like style, or hair, etc) then I let her know. Unfortunately she doesn't always agree, I've been trying to shove her head into black dye for years but she keeps resisting lol - I prefer dark hair.

When I was younger however it was different, when I saw a woman my first thought is "f--kable or not f--kable" heh, but I'm sure that's the same with many women, gauging if one is sexually compatible.


----------



## bubbly girl

Wow, very insightful thread.

I'm curious, do husbands notice their wives getting checked out or are you guys too busy secretly scanning other women to notice? Lol. And how do you feel about men checking out your wives?


----------



## Runs like Dog

If it happens, I don't care.


----------



## nice777guy

bubbly girl said:


> Wow, very insightful thread.


We're all just here to help each other!!!



> I'm curious, do husbands notice their wives getting checked out or are you guys too busy secretly scanning other women to notice? Lol. And how do you feel about men checking out your wives?


Sadly, we are likely to be scanning other women. And honestly - I'd rather not know what other men are thinking. I'll just assume they are perverted like me.

Although sometimes we DO actually scan our own wife or GF a few extra times or two! Does that help? Its not JUST other women...


----------



## bubbly girl

nice777guy said:


> We're all just here to help each other!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Sadly, we are likely to be scanning other women. And honestly - I'd rather not know what other men are thinking. I'll just assume they are perverted like me.
> 
> Although sometimes we DO actually scan our own wife or GF a few extra times or two! Does that help? Its not JUST other women...


Lol, figures. And I know my husband thinks I'm sexy...glad to know I still get scanned by him though! :smthumbup: I still prefer his attention than any other man's. Just wondered if men realized their wives get the once over by other men.


----------



## that_girl

bubbly girl said:


> Lol, figures. And I know my husband thinks I'm sexy...glad to know I still get scanned by him though! :smthumbup: I* still prefer his attention than any other man's. Just wondered if men realized their wives get the once over by other men*.


It's funny when it happens too. Hubs moves a little closer. It's all somewhat subliminal, but funny nonetheless.


----------



## okeydokie

there is a thread in the ladies lounge where alot of women are getting quite hot and bothered over several male celebrities, i guess that is somehow different cause they are more or less anonymous


----------



## Deejo

bubbly girl said:


> Wow, very insightful thread.
> 
> I'm curious, do husbands notice their wives getting checked out or are you guys too busy secretly scanning other women to notice? Lol. And how do you feel about men checking out your wives?


I always notice. And I will point it out. It's the equivalent of an unexpected compliment, that can't really be denied, because you didn't instigate it. It's the equivalent of; 'I find you very attractive, and unsurprisingly, other men do too.'

Did it with my ex. Have done it with subsequent gf's. I will say,
"You aware that you just got checked out? Can't really blame him."

Sometimes the response is a smirk and a "Yup!" and other times it is a confused "What ...?"

Makes for good flirting.


----------



## bubbly girl

Deejo said:


> I always notice. And I will point it out. It's the equivalent of an unexpected compliment, that can't really be denied, because you didn't instigate it. It's the equivalent of; 'I find you very attractive, and unsurprisingly, other men do too.'
> 
> Did it with my ex. Have done it with subsequent gf's. I will say,
> "You aware that you just got checked out? Can't really blame him."
> 
> Sometimes the response is a smirk and a "Yup!" and other times it is a confused "What ...?"
> 
> Makes for good flirting.


I love this! It's like a double ego boost to your woman.


----------



## bubbly girl

that_girl said:


> It's funny when it happens too. Hubs moves a little closer. It's all somewhat subliminal, but funny nonethesless.


Sweet. My husband has never given any indication that he noticed. That's why I wondered if most men do or if they're too busy checking out the scenery.


----------



## Enginerd

I always find it surprising how some women don't understand how piggish men really are. I think the women that do understand this can hold real power over their man because they can easily predict his behavior and use that to her advantage. Personally I appreciate women with a realistic view of men who understand the true nature of the human sexual dynamic. I think too many women and men have bought into the Feminist myth of the sensitive man. It's also been my observation that most sensitive men eventually end up losing their girl to a guy that would otherwise be considered a jerk. 

Oink!


----------



## thatguy007

Enginerd said:


> It's also been my observation that most sensitive men eventually end up losing their girl to a guy that would otherwise be considered a jerk.


Ain't that the truth! I was raised to be nice and respectful and put girls on a pedestal and lost out on a lot of girls because of it... like 'You're so cruel' by U2 says: 'I gave you everything you ever wanted - that wasn't what you wanted.'

I didn't start having success dating women until I stopped being so nice. I still have that somewhat, which is how I ended up on TAM.


----------



## Lon

thatguy007 said:


> Ain't that the truth! I was raised to be nice and respectful and put girls on a pedestal and lost out on a lot of girls because of it... like 'You're so cruel' by U2 says: 'I gave you everything you ever wanted - that wasn't what you wanted.'
> 
> I didn't start having success dating women until I stopped being so nice. I still have that somewhat, which is how I ended up on TAM.


yeah, I kinda wish I would have known back when what I know now... not that I want to do a "Mr. Destiny" and relive my mistakes, but my entire life I never really dated the only two turned into LTR - my teens and twenties are long gone, sure would be nice to be able to date a younger pool of women without feeling like a geezer. Yeah I know those young things aren't really ready to handle a distinguished man like me anyway, and that women my own age are probably able to look past the physical flaws that go along with aging, just since I'm going to be single again would be nice to take the opportunity to strike that old regret from my list somehow  Need to experience a lot of this I don't want in order to appreciate something I do!


----------



## bubbly girl

Enginerd said:


> I always find it surprising how some women don't understand how piggish men really are. I think the women that do understand this can hold real power over their man because they can easily predict his behavior and use that to her advantage. Personally I appreciate women with a realistic view of men who understand the true nature of the human sexual dynamic. I think too many women and men have bought into the Feminist myth of the sensitive man. It's also been my observation that most sensitive men eventually end up losing their girl to a guy that would otherwise be considered a jerk.
> 
> Oink!


I can't speak for all women, but I think totally different from you men so unless your way of thinking is explained to me, I don't know how you think. Of course I know men are piggish about certain things, I just didn't know to what extent! lol

At one time, the thought of my husband wanting to have sex with any other woman but me (never acting on it of course) made me feel insecure about myself. I didn't understand his way of thinking because it was so different from my way of thinking. I have no desire to have sex with anyone but him. Now that I understand how men think, I feel better about it. He may want to have sex with other women, but he also wants to have sex with me and I'm the only one he does have sex with so I trump all other women!:smthumbup:


----------



## Soccerfan73

It's absolutely the first thing I think when I meet a woman. LOL.


----------



## Lon

bubbly girl said:


> ...Of course I know men are piggish about certain things, I just didn't know to what extent! lol


The FULL extent. If you can write it he has already thought it, probably by the time he was 14.


----------



## badcompany

I think it's already been said in here somewhere, the first thought that crosses the mind is "hit it, yes or no?" unless your a gay dishrag of a man. Most men, howver, will play coy and not admit it.


----------



## nice777guy

badcompany said:


> I think it's already been said in here somewhere, the first thought that crosses the mind is "hit it, yes or no?" *unless your a gay dishrag of a man*. Most men, howver, will play coy and not admit it.


Not sure that's quite it...but its not too far off. In part because the answer is usually "hit it." So - then you're on to step two - which is "how" you would "hit it."

And this is all happening in nano-seconds.

"gay dishrag of a man"!!!! :rofl:


----------



## Enginerd

bubbly girl said:


> I can't speak for all women, but I think totally different from you men so unless your way of thinking is explained to me, I don't know how you think. Of course I know men are piggish about certain things, I just didn't know to what extent! lol
> 
> At one time, the thought of my husband wanting to have sex with any other woman but me (never acting on it of course) made me feel insecure about myself. I didn't understand his way of thinking because it was so different from my way of thinking. I have no desire to have sex with anyone but him. Now that I understand how men think, I feel better about it. He may want to have sex with other women, but he also wants to have sex with me and I'm the only one he does have sex with so I trump all other women!:smthumbup:


The way we think is about survival of the species. It seems hard for some to accept, but men are basically animals programmed to impregnate any suitable mate that crosses their path. That requires visualizing the act with the prospective mate. Lots of folks here will take offense to being called an animal, but frankly I'm proud to called an ANIMAL by my wife.


----------



## aston

YUP! thats how we think! There's no woman attractive or not that we haven't undressed inour heads.


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## SimplyAmorous

Enginerd said:


> I always find it surprising how some women don't understand how piggish men really are. I think the women that do understand this can hold real power over their man because they can easily predict his behavior and use that to her advantage. Personally I appreciate women with a realistic view of men who understand the true nature of the human sexual dynamic. I think too many women and men have bought into the Feminist myth of the sensitive man. It's also been my observation that most sensitive men eventually end up losing their girl to a guy that would otherwise be considered a jerk.
> 
> Oink!


My husband is on of the more sensitive ones , I'm always yakking about him being more on the beta scale among men, and He enjoys looking....always has.... always will. He downloads Playboy bunnies all the time at home, seems more for a collection, he never seems to do anything with them. I am totally fine with it. He doesn't do it blatenly when we are out & about together, I never feel less than his #1 - but even if he did fall over looking, I would probably get a laugh out of it. If this is the only variety he ever gets in life , it sure works for me. He is faithful and true. But yeah, still an oinker.


----------



## Greengumball

The objectification of women is not a result of any male biological function, and to say so is to eliminate the role of free will in human behavior and to shirk personal responsibility. This treatment of women is not inherent in humanity, as exemplified by its absence when society took the form of hunting and gathering. At this time, men and women were relatively equal social beings. Only pregnancy and birth required any special treatment. As bipedal beings, pregnancy is much more physically wearing and dangerous, necessitating different labor roles, at least during late stages of pregnancy as a woman is not in physical condition to hunt or gather and obtain the large quantity of sustenance required during pregnancy. At this point, a woman is dependent on her community or other individuals in her life. The need of ongoing care, especially in the form of breast milk, following birth further impedes a woman’s ability to provide necessities. The rest of the development of current male to female relations is social.
Enter agriculture. When people decided to settle down and realized their ability to produce ongoing sustainability from a single piece of land, the idea of property first came into being. Subsequently, crops, livestock, buildings and other material objects, as well as women and children became like land, objects that required protection if one sought to keep them. A great example was made in this discussion in comparing the desire for cars to the desire for women. Other responsibilities also materialized from owning property and building homes; cooking, cleaning and in general maintaining possessions. It made practical sense for labor to be divided in the traditional sense of women as caring for possessions and men obtaining them, as during pregnancy women are less capable of this task and women are better suited for caring for children as a result of lactation.
Personal identity has always been derived from socialization. With property and possession came influxes of wealth. For the first time, people had more or less than others, and passed on this wealth through generations. Inheritance created a need for knowledge of paternity, further necessitating the possession of a single woman to produce at least one indisputable blood line. Such wealth and power created higher social standing, and thus, how much a person had became intertwined in their identity. In search of personal worth, people attempted to accumulate wealth and power in their lifetimes, typically men as their labor roles better enabled them to do so. The social response to the wealthy and powerful allowed also for possession of many women or more beautiful women, again as a mark of higher social standing and increased self-worth. 
So as men became the possessors, the role of women became to be desirable as a possession, and thus share in the social standing, identity and material gains of wealthier, more powerful men. There is a long history of women being pressured or expected to marry men of the right social status, religious affiliation, income bracket or ethnicity, whatever may ensure the highest material or social benefit to the woman and her family, though not necessarily in that order. In today’s highly individualized, neoliberal American society, this has been reduced to an expectation of others for an individual to ‘do what makes them happy,’ in relation to spouses. This is just another, more simplified, way to say ‘find someone who offers you the most benefits.’ 
Maybe this offers you some perspective in analyzing today’s objectification of women. Through the mass media and with the backing of centuries of perpetuation, children, both boys and girls alike, are socialized to believe that a woman’s self-worth is determined by her desirability. So men are raised with an arsenal of justifications for their treatment of women at their disposal, told that its hormones, you’re visual beings, you’re biologically programmed to want lots of beautiful women, its normal to look at a woman as a sex object first, even that its abnormal to not think of women in an objectifying manner, or not get turned on by strip clubs and porn. Within this discussion, there has even been arguments that if a man’s spouse satisfied them more sexually, they wouldn’t feel this way. This is not unconditional love. Marriage vows don’t come with the exception that a man may covet others if a woman stops putting out. It is not in your nature and there is no excuse, though it can be explained within the context of socialization and possibly this realization can better enable men to intentionally put an end to the materialization of years of socialization. 
Society has become more open about sex, and the mass media has capitalized on it. This has presented moral issues ranging from women’s dress to loss of virginity at younger ages, to acceptable number of partners. I believe it is the objectification of women at the root of these issues. Girls and women alike dress sexier to gain the attention of males and thus improve their self-worth. The fact that it has become socially acceptable for males to think less of females who don’t put out, make females feel as though they have to sexually please their admirers, or else lose their self-worth in that person’s eyes, which is further internalized within herself. 
This is especially dangerous during adolescence, when boys and girls alike are determining their own identities, and are more susceptible to acting based on these tendencies of objectification. Sex becomes a means by which women are reduced to keep the attention and love of men, resulting in a higher number of sexual partners when relationships fail and the woman is expected to have sexual relations with the next man she is involved with. But because it is the possession of women that is relevant to men, women who have had a multitude of sexual partners are thought of as less desirable than the much-admired virgin which offers the advantage to spouses as being the sole owner. Again, this is internalized by women who have sought male attention throughout adolescence and has a huge impact on her self-esteem. 
Women are left with a decision. Some conform to their role within objectification, trying to satisfy their spouse’s sexual desires, modifying their physical appearance to what is socially expected of attractive women, (wonderbras, plastic surgery, makeup, manicured eyebrows, shaving, high heels, etc.) and accepting their spouses desire for other women as normal. This is the psychology behind what you see on girls gone wild tapes. When men find a woman sexy, the woman feels sexy and identifies her self-worth based upon such social standing. Some go further in trying to identify more with males and apply similar objectifications to other men, boasting their ability to ‘think like men’ as a leg up in the competition and ironically, as increasing her sex appeal, only further solidifying her role as an object of desire. Other women refute the entire situation by swearing off men, or otherwise expecting their male partner to not to think or act based on such objectifications. Most women employ a combination of all these efforts to cope with our vulnerability to the perspectives of men, especially the ones we love.
The result for relationships is extreme jealousy, dependency, controlling behavior and ruin. I’m not blaming men, but to be fair men have the advantage in the scheme of things and need to understand and accept the very real objectification of women that is apparent in today’s society in order to prevent their role in its perpetuation and to treat women in a way which will advance their social standing. It’s happening and it makes us women feel like ****. At the very least, men should try and apply new standards to their spouses. My message to men is that you have the free will to control even your thoughts. You don’t have to think of having sex with every attractive woman you meet, and it doesn’t make you a better man to do so. Stop making excuses for yourselves and stop resenting women for being impacted by thoughts and actions. Women have the responsibility of also recognizing this process, to prevent themselves from conforming to it and perpetuating their own lesser role. Confidence is a good weapon against depending on men’s desire for security with yourself. Women need to send the message that men cannot dictate how you look and act and what you’re allowed to expect from a relationship. The roots of objectification are so deep within society, that it would take a collective effort to change the situation on the whole, but on an individual scale, small adjustments can make a world of difference.


----------



## Broken at 20

Thank you for the sociology lecture. 

So lets be honest, and politically incorrect to be correct here. 

Women are objectified for their apperance. 
Men are objectified for their ability and income. 

If a woman is physically attractive, then in theory, she should be able to attract a mate fairly easily. (leaving out a ton of other factors)
If a man is successful, he will easily attract a mate. 

And I will try to avoid the big alpha/beta arguement.

Now, for women marrying an expected income bracket or something like that, that is your biology. Evolution. Not society. And certainly not men's fault.
Evolution made you do this. Think back 5000 years ago. You are going to want the man that can hunt and kill something, because he will have food and furs to eat and stay warm. He will also give your off-spring the biggest chance for survival. 
So today, you look for the guy that has the most money you can get because you want to live comfortable and know your children are financially provided for. 

Now men want beautiful women. Why? Because you are hot, and we like that. That is our biology. 
So today, we work hard to get as much money as we can, because that is what attracts women. Money. The almighty dollar. 
And to any women out there disagreeing with me: when you first met your husband, chop his pay in half. Would you have still dated him? 

And you may say I am sexist. Who cares. 

If a female was at one of those speed dating places (whatever they are called) you are interviewing potential mates. 
I imagine one question you ask a man is "Where do you see yourself in 10 years?"
If a man responded "At home, raising your children and cooking dinner." You would probably laugh. You want him working bringing home money, not the roles reversed. Women tend to not respect a man that can't bring home money. 
But if he said "I hope to be the Manager of firm XYZ and make lots of money and live in a nice house," You would be thinking _I must get this man_ because he has a future.

Likewise, if I asked a girl "Where do you see yourself in 10 years," and she told me "Working with you at home taking care of kids and cooking dinner," I would think NEXT! 
First, it is my job to provide (plus I've read about how many affairs started in the workplace for women, just saying...) And second, I would feel emasculated. I am doing the job of a woman. I don't care how sexist that sounds, that is what I am doing. 
But if a girl said "I see myself at your home, raising your kids, cooking you dinner for when you get home," I'd be thinking "Sign me up!" 
But if the next words out of my mouth were "I work in a grocery store earning 10 an hour..." she would say next. Because she knows I won't be able to provide for her.


So women are objectified for their looks. 
Men are objectified for their ability to provide for a woman. 

Women can't change their looks. You can change your weight, but not your looks a whole lot.
Men can't change how smart they are (like i wanted to be a doctor, until I was introduced to organic chemistry...) but we can change our level of education so we can earn more.

Objectification. 
Goes both ways.


----------



## hookares

If the OP is correct, perhaps we have found what was lacking in my failed marriage. I wonder if there's some blood test I could get to determine where I am lacking?


----------



## diwali123

I've been through times in my life where I would see a hit guy and immediately start thinking about sex with him. I'm kinda glad those days are over.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Greengumball

"Now, for women marrying an expected income bracket or something like that, that is your biology. Evolution. Not society. And certainly not men's fault.

Now men want beautiful women. Why? Because you are hot, and we like that. That is our biology. "
-Broken at 20

Would you like to explain to me which gene has developed that causes men to be attracted to certain women? Why don't you break down the 'biology' behind women wanting rich men? 
That's not evolution. 
Its called socialization.
Read a book.
I specifically stated the objectification of women isn't the fault of men, I even pointed out that women share the responsibility. But I can see why it is so easy for you not to care, you have the better end of the deal. I find it funny that you're trying to belittle my argument yet you are proving it. 
Thanks = )


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## waiwera

Enginerd said:


> I always find it surprising how some women don't understand how piggish men really are. I think the women that do understand this can hold real power over their man because they can easily predict his behavior and use that to her advantage. Personally I appreciate women with a realistic view of men who understand the true nature of the human sexual dynamic. I think too many women and men have bought into the Feminist myth of the sensitive man. It's also been my observation that most sensitive men eventually end up losing their girl to a guy that would otherwise be considered a jerk.
> 
> Oink!


I was very naive about men when i was younger but I think my idea of what a man was like was formed by my Dad.

He's kind and funny and smart, he's also an affectionate and loving husband (parents been married over 50 years) and father. I always felt loved by him and secure in life. I thought THAT was what men were like...all of them!

After dating a few guys i quickly realized i really was going to have to kiss quite a few frogs before I found my prince.

So fast forward.. I married a smart, funny, loving man... just like dad. I realize he looks at and appreicates a good looking woman. As long as he's not a pig about it...it's no big deal.

But these days I'm also well aware that for every woman he checks out...2 blokes are checking ME out.

So he has way more to worry about than me in my view


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## doubletrouble

Deejo said:


> Got it ... it's like saying "PIN number." You don't need number, it's inferred in the acronym, Personal Identification Number.
> 
> I appreciate your having thought this through ...


Or "3am in the morning"


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## Applejuice

I'm trying to assess my thought patterns on encountering a new female protagonist but to be honest, for me at least, the theoretical sexual liaison wouldn't manifest itself in my subconscious 'til other thought processes had taken place first. I suppose the order would go something like this:

1) Walk down street passively observing bystanders and architecture
2) Genderless human becomes individual when circumstances require focus (e.g. bumps into me)
3) Immediate subconscious assessment of individual (threat rating according to body language/physical characteristics)
4) If threat summary = no threat + amicable persona + attraction rating + attraction gesture = smile response and 0.35 second mating ritual prediction.
5) Momentary reality check followed by plausible expression of ambivalence and return to (1)


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## doubletrouble

That's really good, AppleJuice


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## Applejuice

doubletrouble said:


> That's really good, AppleJuice


Hahaha thanks Double!


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## missthelove2013

absolutely...if men are being honest they will admit they briefly size up every girl they see or meet for sexual possibility...does NOT mean they act on it, or want to...

women should be glad we do this...if not for sex, we would have little to do with them...well...at least a LOT less to do with them...if men are being honest


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## ScarletBegonias

missthelove2013 said:


> absolutely...if men are being honest they will admit they briefly size up every girl they see or meet for sexual possibility...does NOT mean they act on it, or want to...
> 
> women should be glad we do this...if not for sex, we would have little to do with them...well...at least a LOT less to do with them...if men are being honest


Is it ok with men if there are women out there who do the same and feel the same about men?


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## ConanHub

I would hang out with women even if there was no chance of sex
They are beautiful, graceful, and see things differently than I do. They are very interesting.

That being said, unless she looks like a walrus, I eventually think of sex with her. I try to minimize it and I succeed a lot. But sometimes I imagine it. I would never act on it, I love my wife, but the thoughts happen occasionally.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## treyvion

stumblealong said:


> In the last few days, for some reason a topic keeps coming up. A guy in my class said that every guy when seeing an attractive chic, or even a not so attractive chick, his first thoughts are of having sex with her. Then in another conversation, with a totally different person at a different place said basically the same thing, that men think about having sex with just about every female he comes in contact with.
> 
> I'm posting this to the men on this forum, because in reading these posts on here for over a year, I have really read what seems to be genuine nice guys and I wonder if all men, even the nice ones, think like this? And if so what does that mean to the woman in their life?
> 
> I can honestly say that when i see or meet a good looking guy, sex isn't the first thing that pops in my mind. For some odd reason I have to get to know the person a bit. And I am a woman that has a pretty decent sex drive that is currently not being met. I do have a female friend who says that when she sees an attractive guy, her first thoughts are of sex with him, but she is the only woman I know that has said this (or would admit to it).
> 
> I'm asking because my relationship is not doing so well, but to go out on the dating scene scares the crap outta me. Am I going to think that every time a guy glances at another female he's thinking of getting into her pants? Is it just a fleeting thought that doesn't mean anything? My man is not interested in having sex with me, but when he sees other women does he want to have sex with them? I asked him if he thought this way, of course he said 'no' but right now he's not going to say much that he thinks will tick me off.
> 
> This may be a silly and immature question, but I've only been in 2 relationships (one right after the other) and I've been in a relationship since I was 15, haven't had a lot of different experiences with different men. I mean i know men think of sex a lot, so do i, but think of having sex with every woman you come into contact with? What the heck does that mean?
> 
> Thanks in advance to any replies
> Stumble


It means he is a man and his testosterone and masculinity is functioning. Don't try to redesign this in a man.

A wise man may be able to see many women in sexual ways but will not have sex with them or propose to them sexually, he will be able to be a friend and a loyal relation partner to his gf or wife.


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## treyvion

missthelove2013 said:


> absolutely...if men are being honest they will admit they briefly size up every girl they see or meet for sexual possibility...does NOT mean they act on it, or want to...
> 
> women should be glad we do this...if not for sex, we would have little to do with them...well...at least a LOT less to do with them...if men are being honest


He did observe her attraction signal and size up the fruits she is bearing with relation to his preference, doesn't means he acts upon it.


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## LongWalk

ScarletBegonias said:


> Is it ok with men if there are women out there who do the same and feel the same about men?


No! How much do women do it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NobodySpecial

treyvion said:


> It means he is a man and his testosterone and masculinity is functioning. Don't try to redesign this in a man.
> 
> A wise man may be able to see many women in sexual ways but will not have sex with them or propose to them sexually, he will be able to be a friend and a loyal relation partner to his gf or wife.


Maybe I misunderstand this. When something is in my teeth, I pick it out with my tongue. When a man sees an attractive woman, he thinks of sex. If my husband is to believed, it is as enduring as the stuff in my teeth, and as meaningful.


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## treyvion

NobodySpecial said:


> Maybe I misunderstand this. When something is in my teeth, I pick it out with my tongue. When a man sees an attractive woman, he thinks of sex. If my husband is to believed, it is as enduring as the stuff in my teeth, and as meaningful.


Don't try to change nature. Doesn't mean you have to understand it. As long as your husbands strongest desire is for you, then why does it matter?

I don't think of banging all the babes I potentially can, but to be honest with you, my expression of my masculinity is not at it's peak signal either, so maybe I need to think more how I used to think AS A MAN, without cheating if i have a significant other.


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## NobodySpecial

treyvion said:


> Don't try to change nature. Doesn't mean you have to understand it. As long as your husbands strongest desire is for you, then why does it matter?


It doesn't. No more than my picking gunk out of my teeth bothers him.


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## Applejuice

lol.. great points made here.. great topic!

As far as I'm concerned, I think it's one of those 'ignorance is bliss' scenarios.

I do/did my utmost to consciously suppress any reflexive glances that might otherwise have occurred in off-guard moments, especially if I was blindsided. (e.g. lift door - voluptuous bodice crisis) but sometimes it's just unavoidable, especially if you're tired.

I wouldn't feel at all insecure if I witnessed my beloved unintentionally (though briefly) fixate on something her subconscious forced her to acknowledge.

Galleries are full of art and some of the exhibits are undeniably breath-taking but for me at least, aesthetic pleasure alone is a poor substitute for a truly evocative labour of love.

Would I ever swap my mother's Irish oil-painting for an original John Constable - not on your life. Hang on, that sounds a little too Freudian.. let me think of something a bit more alpha..

er.. let's say, would I swap my £3 greasy newspaper lined bag of fish and chips for a pretentious £35 plate of geometrically aligned breaded cod cubes on a bed of oak-smoked jersey royal wedges? No!


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## JCD

stumblealong said:


> In the last few days, for some reason a topic keeps coming up. A guy in my class said that every guy when seeing an attractive chic, or even a not so attractive chick, his first thoughts are of having sex with her. Then in another conversation, with a totally different person at a different place said basically the same thing, that men think about having sex with just about every female he comes in contact with.
> 
> I'm posting this to the men on this forum, because in reading these posts on here for over a year, I have really read what seems to be genuine nice guys and I wonder if all men, even the nice ones, think like this? And if so what does that mean to the woman in their life?
> 
> I can honestly say that when i see or meet a good looking guy, sex isn't the first thing that pops in my mind. For some odd reason I have to get to know the person a bit. And I am a woman that has a pretty decent sex drive that is currently not being met. I do have a female friend who says that when she sees an attractive guy, her first thoughts are of sex with him, but she is the only woman I know that has said this (or would admit to it).
> 
> I'm asking because my relationship is not doing so well, but to go out on the dating scene scares the crap outta me. Am I going to think that every time a guy glances at another female he's thinking of getting into her pants? Is it just a fleeting thought that doesn't mean anything? My man is not interested in having sex with me, but when he sees other women does he want to have sex with them? I asked him if he thought this way, of course he said 'no' but right now he's not going to say much that he thinks will tick me off.
> 
> This may be a silly and immature question, but I've only been in 2 relationships (one right after the other) and I've been in a relationship since I was 15, haven't had a lot of different experiences with different men. I mean i know men think of sex a lot, so do i, but think of having sex with every woman you come into contact with? What the heck does that mean?
> 
> Thanks in advance to any replies
> Stumble


You really don't want an answer because the way you phrased the question means you will change the way you think about men.

It is a gender disparity. Yes, when we look at a woman, we instantly analyze 'would I have sex with her or not'.

It is pretty much that simple. After that, we may or may not start analyzing if SHE wants to have sex with us. Occasionally a feeler might be put out there.

But it is pretty meaningless to a guy. We do not go 'spank monkey stalker' on a pretty girl.

Women don't get this. They almost all think it's creepy.

But men don't get 'sex without the orgasm.' Women seem to totally get that. We don't. What is the point?

This is really no big deal unless you subscribe to the philosophy that all men are proto rapists. This is untrue but women who hold it AND know that all men have at least a fleeting sexual thought about them tend to get deeply disturbed by the inaccurate conclusions they draw from this.


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## Applejuice

JCD said:


> ..But it is pretty meaningless to a guy. We do not go 'spank monkey stalker' on a pretty girl.


lol



JCD said:


> But men don't get 'sex without the orgasm.' Women seem to totally get that. We don't. What is the point?


lol x 10

Yep, complete mystery to me! Seems like a torturous waste of time..


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## lifeisbetterthanalternat

I have not read the replies etc. 

As for a little background on me: 
married late in life as i enjoyed serial monogamy
I did have several encounters with strangers. Typically in a resort/vacation setting where there was no misrepresentation on my or our intentions of there being any future. It was no strings sex 
I never missreppresented my intentions, IE I never professed strong feelings just to get a piece. In fact, if i knew after a couple dates that there was no dating potential. I would not sleep with them as I felt bad. I call my mom 3 times a week at a minimum, work hard and treat my kids and wife like the treasures that they are..in short I am the kid of guy that that I want my son to be and (or type of guy)that would I want my daughter or sister to date/marry. I have been hit on/been propositioned for sex on business trips or solo ski trips (where my wife would never know). I was tempted..yes! but, would never cheat. 

That all said I do visually undress women who are reasonable attractive or have an attractive feature. I will look with sexual thoughts.....I try not to vision myself being with them...but, sometimes it is hard (or should i say difficult). 

If there are men on this forum that say otherwise there are a majority of others that don't take the time to respond because..duh..it would be like saying the world was round.. a given. Others refrain as it may be a secret that we all keep..with keyloggers and browser cookies. Many of us don't tell our wives/girlfriend as they would never marry, us or would never trust us. Trust me it is just a guy thing and NO reflection on you or the relationship.


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## Placeboni

I don't believe men really do all this... how do you have time??
I might see a man and think 'he is attractive', but that's as far as it goes.. Even if I was sex starved and single, more than a passing thought would probably result in me walking into something :scratchhead:
But then, I'm probably strange.. I don't mind my man fantasising, but only if I agree that they are attractive  I don't know why.. but the thought of him mentally undressing a woman I find unappealing is hurtful.. yet, if he was mentally undressing Natalie Portman I'd be completely fine, and possibly just ask to be included in his fantasies!!
I only think of my partner to get me off.. he works for me, so why think of anyone else? The only time I did that was when I was feeling massively insecure due to him watching porn, and it seemed incredibly unfair to think of him when I was clearly the last thing he'd want to think about. Soo, I employed Jared Padalecki for the evening.. but eventually he morphed into my partner anyway :scratchhead: Being mentally loyal really sucks when you're feeling betrayed!


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