# Communication makes things worse



## Walrus67 (Jul 6, 2016)

Ok, my marriage is myriad of complications. I could write a post a mile long but I'll keep it short and try to be as concise as I can. I'm going to come right out and say it and get it out of the way: I know I am a jerk. I am a difficult person by nature and I'm not easy to live with. Anyway....

Me and my wife have been having issues for years now. We're both in our early 30's, married right out of college in our early 20's and originally got together when we were both 18. Now, we're never on the same page. Last night, we had a long talk. The cliffnotes are this: I hate our sex life and the fact that I don't have any type of life outside of work and my wife and kids. She wants me to be more affectionate and open up more. 

Her points are more valid than mine, I'm aware of that. I have a high sex drive,but that's just a perverted guy thing so not a real issue. And she does want me to make some friends but in my 30's...it's really hard to make friends and I'm stressed about my lack of social and professional sucess and I bottle it up. 

The bottom line is I need to open up more and be affectionate while sharing myself more with her. I get it. So I let it out last night. I talked about my insecurities and stresses as of late: I have no friends, my career is stagnant, we have a child with special needs which creates a daily stress few people can relate to, and honestly (this is kind of a woman thing to say) I feel like I'm completely unattractive on every level as a man. 

We talked and she said she wants more affection on a daily basis and Im not good at that admittedly. More hugs and kisses, less groping lol. I said " I'm sorry honey but you need to quit looking so good all the time lol". She wants less sexual attention and more loving attention so I agree to work on it. 

We talked untill midnight... I get up at 5am to get a workout in before work every day so we fall asleep and then today...things are tense between us. I don't know how to put it. We didn't go to bed mad but today things were weird. I hugged and kissed her goodbye and hello when I got home and made sure to only touch her in the appropriate places, nothing remotely sexual. But we were awkward around each other.

We talked all night and shared how we felt and all that communication made things worse. Any thoughts on this? I know I've glossed over a lot but I don't want to be too long winded. Any questions Im happy to fill in the blanks for you.


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## TomorrowNeverKnows (Jan 27, 2012)

It may be too early to draw any conclusions. A lot of bile came to the surface last night. Even though it may be good in the long run, you might feel worse initially. Think of it as detoxing. I'd say keep putting in the effort for a few days and then see where things are. You might be pleasantly surprised...


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

If you seriously think you're perverted because you have a high sex drive... It's a "guy thing"? Hardly. And you feel completely ubattractive on every level? Sorry but these are all low self-esteem issues. You need counseling, like yesterday.

Why are you into beating yourself up?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Walrus67 (Jul 6, 2016)

I'm not beating myself up I'm just being honest. I don't get the impression that my wife finds me attractive. And I have done therapy throughout my life ever since I graduated college as well as couples therapy too. I understand therapy/counseling but like I said...when we communicate it makes things more uncomfortable. Like we don't know how to act around each other. It's the opposite of what is supposed to happen. 

As far as sex goes. Given the nature of our society at this point, as a man I feel guilty for having a sex drive. I feel like a creep for it because all I hear and see in my personal life or read about and see on TV is how men are oversexed and women aren't in the mood or are tired or sick or a headache and men won't leave them alone and how annoyed these women are with men because of it. We don't really talk about sex anyway because it's uncomfortable for us to talk about and she doesn't want to anyway. She'd rather read erotic novels and use her sex toys.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Counselling. It has a two-fold purpose. 

Putting the counsellor's kids through college and putting marriages back together.

I think for both of those reasons, you need couple's counselling.

Could you take up a hobby? Join a local walking group. perhaps?


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

Read "The 5 Love Languages". Get her to read it too. It's about giving your partner what they need....time, touch, gifts, service, etc. 

And, "His Needs, Her Needs" which discusses the importance of different needs. Including the sexual needs...those count!


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Walrus67 said:


> As far as sex goes. Given the nature of our society at this point, as a man I feel guilty for having a sex drive. I feel like a creep for it because all I hear and see in my personal life or read about and see on TV is how men are oversexed and women aren't in the mood or are tired or sick or a headache and men won't leave them alone and how annoyed these women are with men because of it. We don't really talk about sex anyway because it's uncomfortable for us to talk about and she doesn't want to anyway. She'd rather read erotic novels and use her sex toys.


I strongly second the recommendation for _His Needs, Her Needs_ by Willard Harley. You might also pick up a copy of _Lovebusters_ by the same author. 

However, I'm curious about your concerns regarding society's current views and how those relate to your sex life. It sounds like you are far too wrapped up in what society thinks your sexuality should be like. Are you really of the impression that society believes you shouldn't have a sex drive? And that you should feel guilty because you do? Your sexuality is your own. And, best guess without further details, your sex drive is likely to be within the range of normal for a human male. Where is this guilt coming from? 

Frankly, your statements in the above paragraph lead me to wonder if you are suffering from some degree of anxiety. Has that ever been a concern for which you've received treatment?


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

Walrus, does she read erotic novels and masturbate? Or was that just thrown in there?

It is important, because that might be a big reason why you feel unattractive and it needs to be addressed.


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## Unicus (Jun 2, 2016)

Communication doesn't make things worse, it just clarifies it. It's been bad for years. Saying it makes it more real, though. The vomit smells worse when it's out, but it was the same gurgling inside. Sorry for the nasty metaphor.

I have this tendency to read some of these things and the "THERAPY!" bell rings in my head so loudly it's distracting. And it's now ringing pretty loudly for me. Can you hear it, too?

Your issues pre date your relationship, right? Getting married to your teen age love always sounds far more romantic than it is. That's b/c many (although not all) marriages rooted in adolescence are based not so much on adult "Love", but adolescent insecurity...a lot of the issues you report come from that. That's not a firm foundation to build a life time on. 

I'd suggest you treat the injury that you thought getting married would heal, either in individual or marriage therapy and maybe not talk so much about it at home, where the vulnerability that occurs with self disclosure makes daily life that much more difficult.

And in the while, try to focus on the good things btwn you.


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## Walrus67 (Jul 6, 2016)

Well it's not society so much as she just gets annoyed that I have a sex drive. And yes she masturbates and reads erotic novels. I've asked her about it because honestly that is a huge turn on. But she made a face at me and said she does almost everyday. She does it in the bath at night. Almost every night she needs to take a bath to relax and unwind and I let her because she works a lot and deserves it. She stays up there for an hour to an hour and a half every night relaxing and masturbates apparently. I was turned on by it at first and told her so. She abruptly cut me off and told me that it was none of my business and she didn't want to talk about it. 

We are in couples therapy now and have been for almost 3 years. 

The thing about adolescent love? Yeah that makes sense because we were kids when we met and we have become different people over the years. 

Hobby? Well I do workout twice almost everyday. I go for runs and lift weights and do various aerobics. I do them all in the house though(except running lol) because the demands of our children makes it hard to leave. We have two special needs children who are 10 and 6 and neither of them can talk nor are they potty trained. They both can also go for days on end without sleeping. 

Stress is stress and it never goes away. It's going to upset you no matter what. And there are weeks when the stress from our work is non stop...she works two jobs and i have one job and am taking courses at night to get promoted at work. We have had date nights but they don't help. And not many people can babysit because of how high maintenance are children can be. 

We recently sold our home at a huge loss just so we wouldn't have two mortgages and money is tight. I could go on and on but I'll stop there.


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

Do you get an hour to relax and look at porn while you pleasure yourself?


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

If my W was calling me a perv or complaining I was too high a drive but masterbating daily, there would be big issues, like time for a D.....

It almost sounds like she has a porn addiction to erotica and is shutting you out for self pleasure.


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## Walrus67 (Jul 6, 2016)

Also yes, I have social anxiety. Someone asked if I had anxiety so that answers that. And medication has never helped me much. I have in the past been on various drugs including Paxil and Zoloft among others. Prescription drugs always seem to have no affect on me.

The therapy is also a source of stress itself. It's expensive and neither of our insurance providers help with our therapy. And the therapy for our children's disabilities is really really expensive especially since our state government cut spending to families with children who have disabilities. Also I have a degree in psychology and my wife thinks this means therapists will side with me in arguments. She typically shuts down during our sessions and will become belligerent sometimes saying that everyone is against her. I had to walk home once because she walked out of the session without saying anything and drove home lol. 

She thinks psychology is a load of BS and has even said once that she thinks it makes me less of a man that I studied it and have an interest in it.


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

Well, if this is all true, divorce.


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## Walrus67 (Jul 6, 2016)

No I don't get anytime to relax really and I don't watch porn or masturbate anymore. I wish I could but the truth is I feel stupid doing it. Like I feel really pathetic when I try to masturbate. So I stop. 

I get time to workout. She takes her time to read erotic novels, nap or watch reality shows. I give all the time she needs since she spends most her time stressed and upset and she needs it. 

We have had sex 3 times in the last two years and each time we did it was the exact same. She told me I have 5 minutes and she took her pants off then laid on the edge of the bed with her legs in the air and closed her eyes. Without being too graphic...let's just say I can't exactly finish when it feels like I'm raping her because she acts like she's blocking me out of her mind lol. I tell I'm having a hard time and she pushes me away and stomps out saying "see if I do you a favor ever again "

Sex isn't important though. We have bigger issues to worry about other than my oversized libido lol.


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## Walrus67 (Jul 6, 2016)

Our children need both of us to care for them. We can't get divorced.


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## Unicus (Jun 2, 2016)

Only use your psychology tools to benefit mankind...0

Good for being in therapy. Yes, it's expensive and time consuming, but consider the alternatives. The issue should be effectiveness. Therapy isn't just a place to talk or vent, but to then follow thru with actual, behavioral change. A lot of people go to therapy with good intentions but fail to recognize that at some point, they're supposed to feel better. And if they don't, they should pull the plug and find another psychologist. Is that what's happening? All therapists (and therapies) are not the same, your psych background taught you that.

You didn't mention what you guys talk about in therapy, but I'd frankly ask her if she wants to remain married to you. She's saying and doing things that suggest otherwise, and maybe instead of talking about various issues (like your sex drive or her masturbation), you should just cut to the core here. I think the real issue..and work... lies in her answer.


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

Divorce, there isn't anything else to talk about. You can keep posting more about how awful it is, but again, if the stuff in this thread is true, divorce.

I guess the other option is to just shut up and go on being whatever it is you call someone in this situation.


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## Walrus67 (Jul 6, 2016)

Also neither of us can afford to live on our own.


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

Walrus, you can co-parent while not married. 

Think of how much more 4 parents could do! (While we are saying stupid things I figured that would go well.)


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

OK, then you have your answer, shut up.


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## Walrus67 (Jul 6, 2016)

We talk about lots of stuff but a lot of the time my wife gets angry and shuts down and won't talk. It has aggravated more than one marriage counselor lol


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## Walrus67 (Jul 6, 2016)

4 parents? What do you mean?


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

When you are divorced and remarried to new spouses, there will be 4 of you!

8 Grandparents!!!!!

Seriously, if any of this is true, then there is 0 hope for it getting better. The fact that you are even posting here after what you have said in this thread is stupid.


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## WonkyNinja (Feb 28, 2013)

Walrus67 said:


> As far as sex goes. Given the nature of our society at this point, as a man I feel guilty for having a sex drive. I feel like a creep for it because all I hear and see in my personal life or read about and see on TV is how men are oversexed and women aren't in the mood or are tired or sick or a headache and men won't leave them alone and how annoyed these women are with men because of it. We don't really talk about sex anyway because it's uncomfortable for us to talk about and she doesn't want to anyway. She'd rather read erotic novels and use her sex toys.


Wanting sex more than 3 times in 2 years is not oversexed. And her saying you have 5 minutes then lying there is pretty disgusting behavior towards her spouse.



Walrus67 said:


> Well it's not society so much as she just *gets annoyed that I have a sex drive*. And yes she masturbates and reads erotic novels. I've asked her about it because honestly that is a huge turn on. But she made a face at me and said she does almost everyday. She does it in the bath at night. Almost every night she needs to take a bath to relax and unwind and I let her because she works a lot and deserves it. She stays up there for an hour to an hour and a half every night relaxing and masturbates apparently. I was turned on by it at first and told her so. She abruptly cut me off and told me that it was none of my business and she didn't want to talk about it.


You have a pulse and breathing as well does that annoy her?

She also has a sex drive, unfortunately her sex drive doesn't include the person she is married to which speaks volumes about how she feels about the marriage.



Walrus67 said:


> We have had sex 3 times in the last two years and each time we did it was the exact same. She told me I have 5 minutes and she took her pants off then laid on the edge of the bed with her legs in the air and closed her eyes. Without being too graphic...let's just say I can't exactly finish when it feels like I'm raping her because she acts like she's blocking me out of her mind lol. I tell I'm having a hard time and she pushes me away and stomps out saying "see if I do you a favor ever again "
> 
> Sex isn't important though. We have bigger issues to worry about other than my oversized libido lol.


My XW used to tell me that I "might get lucky". My dislike grew every time she said it. She isn't doing you a favor it is part of the vows she took when she looked you in the face and said them.

Sex *is* important. It is one of the things that binds you together as a couple and is probably even more important for you two with the additional stresses that you have to face as a couple.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

OP, I'm sorry, but your wife doesn't like you. She may think she loves you, but I'm guessing that's something of a delusion as well. 

You guys have been in MC for years now. Are things better? It doesn't sound like it. As I'm sure you know, therapy only works for people who choose to actually do the work on themselves of making changes. Is your wife honestly doing the work? Are you? If the answers to either of those questions is "no", then you likely are wasting your time and money in therapy. At least in MC. IC might still be very useful for both of you, but again, only if you're willing to do the work.


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## Walrus67 (Jul 6, 2016)

Tasorundo, you're telling me to shut up and you're calling me stupid? Are you my wife? Lol


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## Walrus67 (Jul 6, 2016)

No to the remarried thing. Absolutely not. I don't want to date, I don't know how to date, I got enough problems in my life without layering all that on top of it. Besides, I wouldn't be able to afford to date a woman anyway. Women are expensive lol


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## Walrus67 (Jul 6, 2016)

I've suspected for many years that she doesn't like me nor care about me. Hard to admit to yourself though. I should've known when our therapist asked us to remember why we fell in love with each other and we were supposed to tell each other what we loved about one another. 

She didn't have an answer. When I pressed her about this later she only said that I was tricking her into making her look bad by asking a stupid question like that.


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

Things are never going to change if you and your wife does not change your behavior and thinking. 

It seems to me, like there is so many stress factors in your marriage and the two of you are just barely getting things done. As such, there is no time and effort left for "us", the husband/wife relationship. 

Your wife is feeling very resentful towards you. She is working two jobs, managing the house and kids with an awful lot of needs. I really don't know where she finds the time to read and take an hour bath. Good for her. 

Now regarding your sexual needs. Sex once a year or so is a sexless marriage. I think your needs are quite healthy and normal. There is nothing perve about it. 

After three years of therapy and nothing is working, then, we can say that you are at a standstill. There is no where else to go. You can either accept that this is how your marriage and life will be. Or you can find something else to make you happy. Not an affair but divorce.


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## Unicus (Jun 2, 2016)

Walrus67 said:


> I've suspected for many years that she doesn't like me nor care about me. Hard to admit to yourself though. I should've known when our therapist asked us to remember why we fell in love with each other and we were supposed to tell each other what we loved about one another.
> 
> She didn't have an answer. When I pressed her about this later she only said that I was tricking her into making her look bad by asking a stupid question like that.


Ok, so what exactingly are you doing? Here, In therapy and your marriage, btw.

I agree with Rowan that therapy isn't some miracle cure that happens just b/c you show up. You have to work it, and that means more than just talk...she's not doing much of anything other than using it as a platform to justify herself and then act out all her nasty emotion. Neither of which is productive.

You say you cannot afford *Anything*. That's a poor excuse that just maintains the status quo (and the therapists Mercedes payments). I'd suggest you begin the next session by asking her if she wants to remain married to you and then be prepared to explain what you need..or, most probably..to then let her know her response (or lack thereof) is no longer acceptable. What you're describing is long past "Tell the other person what you like about them". Rather, "Why are you still in this?"

Sometimes, to move something forward you have to be prepared to make a full stop.


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## ambulance.girl5 (Jul 6, 2016)

Walrus67 said:


> Ok, my marriage is myriad of complications. I could write a post a mile long but I'll keep it short and try to be as concise as I can. I'm going to come right out and say it and get it out of the way: I know I am a jerk. I am a difficult person by nature and I'm not easy to live with. Anyway....
> 
> Me and my wife have been having issues for years now. We're both in our early 30's, married right out of college in our early 20's and originally got together when we were both 18. Now, we're never on the same page. Last night, we had a long talk. The cliffnotes are this: I hate our sex life and the fact that I don't have any type of life outside of work and my wife and kids. She wants me to be more affectionate and open up more.
> 
> ...


I'm kinda in the same boat as her. If she's anything like me, and it sounds like she is, she's tense because she's afraid. She's afraid to let her guard down and be disappointed yet again, if you don't pass muster in your efforts to be more nonsexually affectionate. Keep it up...she'll get use to it. Don't give up on her if it takes awhile for her to become comfortable and let her guard down. I mean, she hasn't given up on YOU for not being affectionate all this time, right? 
That said, if you'd like some help in HOW to be nonsexually affectionate, here it is. And it's actually pretty easy. So you like babies? Babies are sweet and soft and they smell good, don't they? Kinda like your wife, right? She is kinda the same, but in a more grown up way. So treat her like a baby...sort of. Hold her, snuggle her, touch her and plant little kisses all over, like you would to a sweet little baby. Hold her hand, caress her arm, play gently with her hair...and then walk away. Call or text her from work, juat to say you are thinking of her, or just simply that you love her. Do these things several times a day...at least 3 or 4 times a day. But be ready because in doing this, you're about to unleash a wildcat in the sack at night(or in the day, or in the morning, or all of the above!)
A woman who feels loved and cherished, adored even, becomes a very sexual woman. Good luck! (And I'm telling you, it CAN be learned...my husband is becoming living proof of it!)

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


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## Walrus67 (Jul 6, 2016)

I basically asked her for a divorce tonight. I sat her down and told her simply that this isn't working and there's no point in doing this. I told her I'm miserable and I don't want to waste my life being miserable. She just robotically said ok. That's it. I told her I would start the process tomorrow but all she said was"ok whatever you want ". She went upstairs and went to bed without saying anything else. I'm very confused. This may sound weird but her reaction for some reason sent a wave of depression over me. 

I have drawn up a plan of how to financially handle all this and I think I can work it out. I'm not going to have television or internet or be able to go to therapy and I will live off of ramen noodles and water lol. But it might work.


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## ricky15100 (Oct 23, 2013)

Sounds like your social anxiety stems from being rejected and made to feel worthless for so long.

Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

Its because you wanted her to fight for you. You wanted her to see what she was losing and realize what a mistake it would be to let that go.

Too bad that she does not care, she does not love you. You will be happier eating ramen in a different home than you are there.


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## Begin again (Jul 4, 2016)

Walrus67 said:


> Well it's not society so much as she just gets annoyed that I have a sex drive. And yes she masturbates and reads erotic novels. I've asked her about it because honestly that is a huge turn on. But she made a face at me and said she does almost everyday. She does it in the bath at night. Almost every night she needs to take a bath to relax and unwind and I let her because she works a lot and deserves it. She stays up there for an hour to an hour and a half every night relaxing and masturbates apparently. I was turned on by it at first and told her so. She abruptly cut me off and told me that it was none of my business and she didn't want to talk about it.
> 
> We are in couples therapy now and have been for almost 3 years.
> 
> ...


First, glad you are communicating and here, as you may find help here. Second, you sound like my soon to be ex, so it's like I'm listening to him explain himself (except he didn't talk except rarely so you have that going for you).

Ok... So a man who works out twice a day and has self esteem issues? Not attractive to a woman. It just screams desperation. And you telling her how unattractive you feel... While that may be true, you now need to change yourself so you don't feel that way, and you won't get there with more working out.

Best thing you can do, and I can't believe I'm saying this, is to ignore her and go out. Seriously... Go find some friends, go join a club, and go find some women who stroke your ego just a bit. Either that, or you can do the old Stewart smiley bit and talk to yourself in the mirror! (Don't do that). 

In any case, you need to shake the seriously low self esteem and no amount of working out and counseling is going to do that. If you don't believe you are attractive or worthy or whatever, there's your issue. You must fix that or all other attempts other than that will fail.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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