# My Basic Expectations



## BALANCE

Some of you may already know a little about my situation but here is a brief recap.

Married 13 years we have 3 kids (9,5,2). Eight years ago I would have said we had a pretty good marriage. Five years ago we started MC and did that for a year and a half. Mostly during that time he worked on helping me "Man Up," although he did not use that termanology. After that time the MC seemed to think we were doing pretty good and drastically lessened the number of sessions. Things eventually started going south again.

My wife seems openly resentful and bitter. She has said that she is emotionally separated from me. In June she asked that we take a break from sex to give her space to process all the pain from the past (no one major thing just a bunch of stuff from the past ie. "you said this 8 years ago). Eventually we started up with a new MC. After about 5 months we stopped going.

So here we are.

I've been reading the "No More Mr. Nice Guy" and decided to lay out some of my expectations for the relationship. I tried my best to explain that these were things we needed to get to and may not be something that we can jump right into. So, here were my basic expectations.

1. I expect her to share her needs with me openly and honestly.

2. Our relationship has to be a priority. We need to make efforts to heal, reconnect and move forward. This included spending more time together, and generally making it more of an urgent need.

3. Respect. This included some specifics about not lying to me, not mocking me in public and not devaluing my ideas and needs (I can't tell you how many times she has rolled her eyes at me and told me nobody cared about xyz).

4. Love. This included telling each other that we love each other and show love through physical affection. I did tell her that I need sex 2-3 times a week but realize we can't just jump right into that so I could negotiate the amount of times, but it did need to happen.

Her response:
1. Wanted to make sure I knew that making the relationship a priority was also my responsibility.

2. Although I was asking her to stop she wanted me to know that I spent a lot of time "teasing" and making fun of her early on in our marriage.

3. She does not want to say "I love you" and I need to understand that the relationship doesn't have to have that. She does not want to have sex and at most she could see us doing it once a month. She asked that if these were none negotiable than she would like to talk to the MC before giving a "real" answer. She also said that my "need" to have sex was not a real need but more of a desire.

I did start off this conversation stating that I was sorry about the pain that I have caused her. And that I have made some major changes to myself and that I want to do better at meeting her needs. I want us both to openly share our needs so that we can willingly, lovingly care for each others needs.

By the end she shared a number of times where I hurt her and she did not feel like I acknowledged it or did not apologize for it. I apologized for those things and told her I was glad she could share them with me. She also told me that the level of tenderness in the relationship was so far below what she needed that she didn't see how I could ever meet her need there.

Anyway, things are tense. I'm starting to think I must be an awful person. I didn't want to hurt her in some cases I didn't even realize I was hurting her. But, I have clearly caused unrepairable damage.

Sorry for the rant. Not even sure I have any questions really. Just not sure what to do. Do you think I totally screwed that interaction up? Was that the wrong approach? Am I missing something or isn't telling each other you love them a basic component to a marriage relationship? :scratchhead:


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## DanF

Although I believe that your post is as honest as possible, it is only half of the conversation and being presented by one side.

But, it sounds to me like she is not willing to make any changes while expecting you to do all the work.
If she can't say, "I love you" then she must not love you. I don't know if you can expect anything from her...


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## Catherine602

B - this is wonderful not bad. She is telling you exactly what you wanted to know, what happened to our love.

You acknowledge that there were things that you did that hurt her but you were unaware. Why did she not tell you at the time would be a good follow up question? Instead she hung onto the hurt and retaliated inappropriately. So it is not just you but both of you. Don't take on all of the blame, she has to acknowledge her part. If you can both do that then you can move forward. 

It is obvious that you love her, if she only knew how fortunate she is to have a husband who cares about her feelings. One important thing is that you may be giving too much - give only as much as you get. That is important, if you are taking on all of the blame and making all of the effort to right things you send the wrong message. She is more important than you and she does not have to work to make you happy. 

Cool way down. Be more independant, make sure you look good, find some activity that is independant of her. Give her room to come to you, stop persueing her so much. I think you have an excellent begining here. And no you are not a terrible person. We are none of us mind readers, it is impossible to predict what action or word will hurt or annoy your partner. Honest comm is the only way. You are doing some of that now so keep it up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KanDo

DanF said:


> Although I believe that your post is as honest as possible, it is only half of the conversation and being presented by one side.
> 
> But, it sounds to me like she is not willing to make any changes while expecting you to do all the work.
> If she can't say, "I love you" then she must not love you. I don't know if you can expect anything from her...


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

This is not a marriage worth having


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## uphillbattle

Wow, so she expects the world from you for her needs but your needs are just desires? You should "desire" to tell her that it is only neotiable to a point. Don't give in anymore than you feel that you can be happy with. If she sees sex as a desire then treat her need for tenderness as the same. Don't be a push over.


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## BALANCE

Catherine602 said:


> B - this is wonderful not bad. She is telling you exactly what you wanted to know, what happened to our love.
> 
> It is obvious that you love her, if she only knew how fortunate she is to have a husband who cares about her feelings. One important thing is that you may be giving too much - give only as much as you get. That is important, if you are taking on all of the blame and making all of the effort to right things you send the wrong message. She is more important than you and she does not have to work to make you happy.
> 
> I think you have an excellent begining here. And no you are not a terrible person. We are none of us mind readers, it is impossible to predict what action or word will hurt or annoy your partner. Honest comm is the only way. You are doing some of that now so keep it up.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you for the encouragement. On paper things seem pretty good. And at times I feel like we really click. 

I am scared about "cooling down," I always feel so alone when I do that. She never seems to want to pursue me and I just get ignored. I feel even more rejected. 

I have lost some weight and started a new hobby. And I started meeting with friends for lunch. Maybe those things will fill the void.


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## jayde

Catherine602 said:


> You acknowledge that there were things that you did that hurt her but you were unaware. Why did she not tell you at the time would be a good follow up question? Instead she hung onto the hurt and retaliated inappropriately. So it is not just you but both of you. Don't take on all of the blame, she has to acknowledge her part.


Yep - I was thinking the same thing - she needs to claim some responsibility in this. The 'poor me, poor me you big bad guy' needs to stop.

In one extreme, this could also be rewriting your history. She has resentments (or something) and needs to blame someone other than herself . . . and that would be you. And if you buy into it, she can rewrite in her mind anything to make you the bad guy. In my marriage I've run around chasing my tail so long to set things right . . . and she would make sure that they can never be right.

It sounds like she's lucky to have you - you seem so willing to work to make things better. I hope she realizes this soon. Good luck!


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## BALANCE

uphillbattle said:


> Wow, so she expects the world from you for her needs but your needs are just desires? You should "desire" to tell her that it is only neotiable to a point. Don't give in anymore than you feel that you can be happy with. If she sees sex as a desire then treat her need for tenderness as the same. Don't be a push over.


I did fight pretty hard for the need vs. desire. In the end she just said, "I hear what you area saying, you think it is a need," But of course she doesn't really acknowledge that it is so I still feel unheard.

She did say that it isn't a sex drive thing for her. She has told me in the past that she "takes care of herself" a couple times a week. So really our need for sex is about the same. She just doesn't want it with me.

If we both have needs that contradict each other how do we compromise if neither one of us wants to back down. Shouldn't there be some sacrifice in a relationship?


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## BALANCE

jayde said:


> In one extreme, this could also be rewriting your history. She has resentments (or something) and needs to blame someone other than herself . . . and that would be you. And if you buy into it, she can rewrite in her mind anything to make you the bad guy. In my marriage I've run around chasing my tail so long to set things right . . . and she would make sure that they can never be right.
> 
> It sounds like she's lucky to have you - you seem so willing to work to make things better. I hope she realizes this soon. Good luck!


I have heard the term "rewriting your history" but had forgotten about that. It does feel that way, but I feel so uncertain of things that I'd just like to apologies and move on. If thats all it takes, it's a small price.

Here is an example she shared with me:

Eight years ago we returned to the US after living overseas. I was afraid that her, somewhat, controlling parents would overwhelm us. So I mentioned having some boundaries. I threw out a number of going to seeing her parents (who live 4 1/2 hours away) around two times a year. She did not like that idea and eventually we dropped it. We have generally seen them once a month. But she says just that I would suggest that changed how she viewed me and she has never fully forgiven me for suggesting such a thing.


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## Tall Average Guy

jayde said:


> Yep - I was thinking the same thing - she needs to claim some responsibility in this. The 'poor me, poor me you big bad guy' needs to stop.


You also need to make sure that she does not use this as an excuse to treat you poorly. She does not get to disrespect you in public because you were mean to her a while back. For it to work, *both of you *need to be respectful to the other.


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## jayde

BALANCE said:


> I have heard the term "rewriting your history" but had forgotten about that. It does feel that way, but I feel so uncertain of things *This uncertainty is what makes it work for her and will forever mess you up. Once you doubt, she can frame anything anyway she likes. Please see your own example.*
> 
> that I'd just like to apologies and move on. If thats all it takes, it's a small price. *Agreed. Try this, but keep in mind, it's not nearly that simple. Months from now, she might say, "well you apologized for XYZ so quickly, you must not have really meant the apology" AND . . . agreeing to apologize for a 'rewrite' that she's made up will validate it.*


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## BALANCE

I see what you're saying. 

I did tell her that I would not re-apologies for things in the past that I felt had already been delt with. I also tried to be very specific with the apologies, i.e. "I'm sorry I hurt you when I asked that we see your parents two times a year." As apposed to, "I'm sorry I kept you from seeing your parents." Which is more along the lines of what she wanted to hear.


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## AFEH

Sounds to me like your wife is embittered about things from the past and is persecuting you for them. I’ve come to see embitterment as quite natural but at the same time I think the embittered person has some sort of duty to get rid of their bitterness, most especially if they are staying in the marriage and take what their partner does for them. And that this is best done through forgiveness and wisdom.

At the same time it needs active participation from the “offender”. In that the offender must make their apologies in a way the embittered person can accept. But unfortunately in these things great big walls of invulnerability have been built to prevent any possible further hurt, pain.

And to get these walls to start coming down needs a third party to help the couple by showing them the way. I can only believe it is an exceedingly delicate process liable to go “wrong” at any time and that’s why it needs a very experienced counsellor.

So that would be my first recommendation, seek out a counsellor/psychologist who is experienced in removing embitterment from your marriage. I feel pretty certain that when a couple goes through such a process they come out the other side with a much deeper understanding, appreciation and love for one another.


There is something you can do to protect yourself from your wife’s persecution of you and that’s by the way of boundaries. These are boundaries of intolerance. You quite simply tell your wife what you will not tolerate in a very calm, cool and collected manner. And when she goes through your boundaries again, which she will do, you just calmly repeat your boundary to her. Take a look at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/14963-boundaries-men.html. Personal boundaries are a life skill. It can take a while to become proficient in their application http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/35517-four-stages-competence.html


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## ren

BALANCE said:


> Here is an example she shared with me:
> 
> Eight years ago we returned to the US after living overseas. I was afraid that her, somewhat, controlling parents would overwhelm us. So I mentioned having some boundaries. I threw out a number of going to seeing her parents (who live 4 1/2 hours away) around two times a year. She did not like that idea and eventually we dropped it. We have generally seen them once a month. But she says just that I would suggest that changed how she viewed me and she has never fully forgiven me for suggesting such a thing.


This sounds really weird to me. She is upset at you for 8 years because you didn't want to visit her family as often as she wanted?! Why do you think this incident bothered her so much?

Does she get angry when you leave the toilet seat up?


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## BALANCE

ren said:


> This sounds really weird to me. She is upset at you for 8 years because you didn't want to visit her family as often as she wanted?! Why do you think this incident bothered her so much?
> 
> Does she get angry when you leave the toilet seat up?


No, she's pretty low maintenance most of the time. Doesn't really nit-pick little stuff like that.

I can see how it was hurtful for her. It probably felt like a rejection of her family and maybe, by extension, her. She does have very high expectations of what a husband is supposed to be like. She has said before that she expected me to be like a son to her parents. And, for the most part we do get along. I don't have any real animosity towards her parents I just wanted to set up some boundaries, but that was unacceptable. I would say we see her parents about as much as all the other siblings in the family.


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## Unsure in Seattle

Well-it's difficult when you learn that someone has resented you for stuff in the past that you don't remember or even didn't know about. How can you correct something if you don't know about it?

I said to my WS, in regards to communication one time, that I didn't understand why she seemed to think that I was some kind of insensitive ogre that she couldn't share with. Her deadpan reponse was that one time, years ago, she brought to me a problem at work, and I snapped at her about it.

We're all human, and we make mistakes... I instantly apologized but I happened to remember the incident she brought up and calmly pointed out that the reason that she got snapped at in that particular instance is that SHE was the one that was being very, very insensitive; she didn't realize (I guess) that the problem she had come to complain to me about was something where she didn't have enough to do at her job (we worked at the same place, in different departments, and she had been recently transferred/semi-promoted out of my dep't), while I was swamped over doing the work that she herself had used to do (picking up the slack in her absence, in other words). Since we didn't hash it out initially, the festering problem laid there dormant for both of us.


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## BALANCE

I was thinking of a new approach to apologies. 

What if I were to ask her to share with me the things that I have done in the past that were hurtful. Once she tells me what it is I can ask her if she would be willing to forgive. If she says yes then I will gladly apologies, if she says no, I don't really see the point.

Does that seem fair? Is it manipulative or controlling?


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## jayde

There's a question here about whether she (and you) want to live in the past or move onto the future (I think we know your answer). Discussing the past as a means to come to terms with it, understand it, apologize/forgive is important to moving forward. Resentment stems from holding onto past wrongs. Is she willing to move forward?

With my wife, I have taken the tact of asking if past issues will continue to be held over my head like a threatening ax or if we can move past them. I told her that if I have to keep hearing about what I did XX years ago, with no movement toward resolution but rather to continue to rub my nose in it, AND she takes no responsibility for The Event in question, I have no interest in the discussion. It's hers to deal with on her own and as she sees fit. This may seem callous but so is holding tightly to resentments.


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## deejov

Balance,
As a wife who recognizes some of your wife's reluctance to let those past things go, I can only add my own personal opinion.

I too have the 'laundry list' of things my husband has done, and the resentment and anger are still there. I would not think of having sex with him at this point. 

Yes he has apologized, and done more than many others to show he is truly sorry.

But my practical brain says "he will do it again" and I wonder if your wife is looking for more than just an apology, but a sign that you can modify your behavior so it doesn't happen again? There is also the time factor. Space and time to get over it.

I will also add here that MY anger is $hit and I need to deal with it. No one should carry this stuff around, it's not healthy nor is it fair. 
People make mistakes. I'm working on it. Very hard.

But just wanted to say I can sorta relate.. it can be like layers of clothing. One layer at a time, until it seems like too much to bear and you want to throw it all off. 

Life is easier when you deal with one lone sock at a time. 
Good luck,


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## BALANCE

deejov said:


> Balance,
> As a wife who recognizes some of your wife's reluctance to let those past things go, I can only add my own personal opinion.
> 
> I too have the 'laundry list' of things my husband has done, and the resentment and anger are still there. I would not think of having sex with him at this point.
> 
> Yes he has apologized, and done more than many others to show he is truly sorry.
> 
> But my practical brain says "he will do it again" and I wonder if your wife is looking for more than just an apology, but a sign that you can modify your behavior so it doesn't happen again? There is also the time factor. Space and time to get over it.
> 
> I will also add here that MY anger is $hit and I need to deal with it. No one should carry this stuff around, it's not healthy nor is it fair.
> People make mistakes. I'm working on it. Very hard.
> 
> But just wanted to say I can sorta relate.. it can be like layers of clothing. One layer at a time, until it seems like too much to bear and you want to throw it all off.
> 
> Life is easier when you deal with one lone sock at a time.
> Good luck,


Thank you for your input. It's always good to get some perspective from the other side of things.

We had been taking the whole, "give it time and space" approach but it just feels never-ending. That was part of why we did the sex "break." To give her time to heal without the pressure of having sex. 

I have tried to modify my behavior. And she has said that things really are much better, but when does she have to start modifying her behavior? It doesn't seem fair to expect me to reach/satisfy her needs for change before she even starts making changes.


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## BALANCE

deejov said:


> Yes he has apologized, and done more than many others to show he is truly sorry.
> 
> But my practical brain says "he will do it again" and I wonder if your wife is looking for more than just an apology, but a sign that you can modify your behavior so it doesn't happen again? There is also the time factor. Space and time to get over it.


Is the goal to never be hurt again? Do you have habits/behaviors that are hurtful to him? Is your standard for yourself to get to a point where you will, literally, never do/say those things ever again? That seems unattainable for both you and your husband.

No matter how much I change, grow or mature I will almost surely hurt my wife again somewhere down the road. I don't want to, but let's be realistic. She will also hurt me.

The beautiful thing about a marriage is that it's two people being open and vulnerable with each other. Sometimes somebody will get hurt because of it, but it can also be a wonderful connection.


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## deejov

You are right, it's crappy behavior.

For me on my end, it's MY job to learn to get over it. To walk away and not be angry for more than 5 minutes about something. To let it go, and treat him like I want to be treated.

But something happens in the brain when you constantly hear I'm sorry and the behavior is just repeated again.

That begins a process of "boundaries" and not being with someone who does not respect you or appreciate you. Can you see how that can happen? The expression --- it's easier to ask for forgiveness than ask for permission. The idea that marriage gives a person free rein to do whatever they want... as long as they apologize for it later?

Once things get to this point, it becomes a matter of using that LIST as fodder to explain why you are checked out of the marriage. 

Yes, I see that you say you are modifying behavior. Which is good for YOU, and should help you in the long run. But should you expect anything in return? Not really. It's to make you a better person. If you are only doing it because she asked, then ask yourself if she is asking you to change as a person, fundamentally, who you are. 

Or is it personal growth? If it's personal growth, you shouldn't need a reward for it. You should just want to be that way, with her or anyone else. Is she looking for validation of this?

I don't know your whole story... but my story is just simply that I am seeking help with being bitter about that darn "list". Not because I want my husband to like me more or to save my marriage. But because I don't want to be bitter, period. It's holding me back from being truly happy in my life. And that doesn't make me a good spouse, friend, co-worker, or anything. 

Whether or not I stay with my husband depends on how I feel when I get "happy" with me. Fundamentally... I don't want someone to pretend to be someone they are not. I want the real person. And if their true values come out, and it doesn't fit with mine, I won't stay.

In other words, if he is only pretending to be the person I've asked him to be, I'd rather be alone.


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## AFEH

Your wife is punishing you for your past offences. The more you tolerate her punishment, the longer it will go on. I’ve seen wives in their 80s still punishing their husbands for things they did decades previously. It is a merciless, heartless persecution.

I think it is also immoral. On the one hand the wife punishes and in the other she takes all the things you do for her. Her punishment of you is by way of withholding. This can be anything from withholding sex all the way through to not baking you cakes.

The more you apologise to her and the more you try and make things up to her the longer her persecution and punishment of you will go on. Why is that you may well ask. It is simply that (a) Her persecution and punishment of you is deeply habitual and is a way of life for her and (b) Because you continue to be “good” to her even in the face of being punished she has absolutely no fear of loss. Not only of the things you do for her but you as a person. She simply does not fear losing you so does nothing to keep you!


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## BALANCE

AFEH said:


> Your wife is punishing you for your past offences. The more you tolerate her punishment, the longer it will go on. I’ve seen wives in their 80s still punishing their husbands for things they did decades previously. It is a merciless, heartless persecution.
> 
> I think it is also immoral. On the one hand the wife punishes and in the other she takes all the things you do for her. Her punishment of you is by way of withholding. This can be anything from withholding sex all the way through to not baking you cakes.
> 
> The more you apologise to her and the more you try and make things up to her the longer her persecution and punishment of you will go on. Why is that you may well ask. It is simply that (a) Her persecution and punishment of you is deeply habitual and is a way of life for her and (b) Because you continue to be “good” to her even in the face of being punished she has absolutely no fear of loss. Not only of the things you do for her but you as a person. She simply does not fear losing you so does nothing to keep you!


Do you think it was unwise to let her share some of her resentments and apologies for them? I really would like to just move on and start building a better relationship. A lot of the things feel like she just wants me to finally admit that I was wrong about something. Should I stop letting bring all that stuff back up with me?


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## AFEH

I think the opposite. In that I think it very wise to let her share her resentments with you. These things really do need to be in the open and cleared up wherever possible. If they are not cleared up they eventually kill the marriage simply because while they are there love cannot blossom and grow. In fact love very much takes a back seat in the marriage.

Some really are traumatised, emotionally traumatised and it may take professional intervention to heal the trauma. Emotional trauma is best healed with forgiveness and by applying wisdom.

The problems you may face are your responses to what your wife tells you. For example with a given offence you may have absolutely no recollection of it and may well feel your wife is deluded, and she may well be. While on the other hand your wife may well feel that you are the deluded one. And so it goes on and on. This is a symptom of not confronting the issues/offences as they occur. Overtime what actually happened becomes lost and at the same time gets embellished, very much like false memory syndrome.

And of course you may well minimise the “affect” of one of your offences because you wouldn’t have responded in the same way to the same offence. And if you were to minimise you are shouting out that your wife’s feelings are of no significance to you.

I’m not saying you will respond as above, just that the path of forgiveness and reconciliation is littered with minefields for the inexperienced and that’s why it needs professional help. It is a massive problem and not one to ever be underestimated.


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## NotLikeYou

BALANCE said:


> So, here were my basic expectations.
> 
> 1. I expect her to share her needs with me openly and honestly.
> 
> 2. Our relationship has to be a priority. We need to make efforts to heal, reconnect and move forward. This included spending more time together, and generally making it more of an urgent need.
> 
> 3. Respect. This included some specifics about not lying to me, not mocking me in public and not devaluing my ideas and needs (I can't tell you how many times she has rolled her eyes at me and told me nobody cared about xyz).
> 
> 4. Love. This included telling each other that we love each other and show love through physical affection. I did tell her that I need sex 2-3 times a week but realize we can't just jump right into that so I could negotiate the amount of times, but it did need to happen.
> 
> Her response:
> 1. Wanted to make sure I knew that making the relationship a priority was also my responsibility.
> 
> 2. Although I was asking her to stop she wanted me to know that I spent a lot of time "teasing" and making fun of her early on in our marriage.
> 
> 3. She does not want to say "I love you" and I need to understand that the relationship doesn't have to have that. She does not want to have sex and at most she could see us doing it once a month. She asked that if these were none negotiable than she would like to talk to the MC before giving a "real" answer. She also said that my "need" to have sex was not a real need but more of a desire.


So let's review your basic expectations!

1) Your wife is now sharing her resentment and dislike with you. You are having to apologize for things you said and did in the beginning of the relationship, years ago. Terrible, hurtful things, like suggesting that you only visit her parents twice a year. *Not to be confused with terrible, hurtful things like only actually visiting her parents twice a year.......*

2) In response to your needing to spend more time together, you two are "taking time and cooling off."

3) You want more respect. And a big first step will come right after you kiss her backside enough that she will make your life complete by saying those 3 magic words, "I love you." She is almost there- just a little bit more effort on your part, and you will experience the satisfaction of hearing your wife tell you she loves you. Once.

4) Love. You want it, she plays with herself twice a week, and says you are confusing "want" with "need."

Gee, BALANCE, it looks like you have done a swell job of figuring out your basic expectations. At least as long as you define "expectation" as "just words that don't mean anything."

You seem like a really nice guy, and your wife sounds like she is determined to make you pay for that. Perhaps I am missing something. Has she actually put any effort into meeting your "expectations" that you might have accidentally not written about in your posts?


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## Laurae1967

BALANCE said:


> By the end she shared a number of times where I hurt her and she did not feel like I acknowledged it or did not apologize for it. I apologized for those things and told her I was glad she could share them with me. She also told me that the level of tenderness in the relationship was so far below what she needed that she didn't see how I could ever meet her need there.


This is the crux of the problem with your wife. Until she feels like she is emotionally safe in the relationship, things will not get better. Some of that is up to you and some of that is up to her. 

What I mean by that is this - your wife has certain needs that she obviously feels you are not meeting. She has a responsibility to figure out what needs SHE needs to be meeting for herself and which needs are reasonable for her to expect you to meet. The same goes for you. This is not a black and white issue. You both have a part to play in your own well-being and in the success of the marriage.

I would suggest NOT doing MC but each doing IC to get at the issues that are impacting your lives in a negative way.

Please pay attention to what your wife has told you about your past unwillingness to acknowledge or apologize for things you have done to hurt her. This has a HUGE negative impact on a marriage.

On the other hand, her rolling her eyes at you and mocking you is also destructive and is probably "payback" for all the hurt you have caused her.

The trick is to STOP the mutual hurting and to take FULL responsibility for the marriage - each of you. Tit for tat is a marriage killer and two wrongs don't make a right.


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## Laurae1967

BALANCE said:


> I was thinking of a new approach to apologies.
> 
> What if I were to ask her to share with me the things that I have done in the past that were hurtful. Once she tells me what it is I can ask her if she would be willing to forgive. If she says yes then I will gladly apologies, if she says no, I don't really see the point.
> 
> Does that seem fair? Is it manipulative or controlling?


See, now this seems like really scary thinking. So you only give her an apology if she will forgive you? So unless you get forgiveness you are not sorry for hurting her? I don't get it.

Either you are sorry for hurting someone you love or you aren't. What you "get" out of it is irrelevant.

This indicates some "tit for tat" and keeping score dynamics in your marriage. This is a marriage killer.


----------



## AFEH

Laurae1967 said:


> See, now this seems like really scary thinking. So you only give her an apology if she will forgive you? So unless you get forgiveness you are not sorry for hurting her? I don't get it.
> 
> Either you are sorry for hurting someone you love or you aren't. What you "get" out of it is irrelevant.
> 
> This indicates some "tit for tat" and keeping score dynamics in your marriage. This is a marriage killer.


Unfortunately it’s very much his wife is the one who is keeping score. Most especially the tit-for-tat. Men typically don't do that stuff. “You hurt me, I’ll never forgive you. I’ll make you pay for it”.

His wife is the one who must be motivated to forgive and move on towards a better relationship. Without that the guy hasn’t a hope in hell, he’ll just be spinning his wheels. But with that motivation then what he does will either help or sabotage the process.

There’s actually a new disorder trying to get recognition. Post Embitterment Stress Disorder. It’s reasonably controversial at the moment but my personal experience speaks the truth of it.

There are some who will never ever forgive no matter what the person their persecution and punishment is aimed at does. If Balance’s wife is one of those the sooner he finds out the better for him. And making a deal about if he apologises will she forgive is one sure way of finding out very quickly. At the very least he’ll know the size of the mountain he’ll have to climb.

A wife’s embitterment is one massive fitness test for a husband and its fraught with minefields.

His wife is the one who is killing the marriage through her need for persecution, revenge and punishment. I actually think it's quite wicked and sometimes evil. If she really feels that way about him she should leave.


----------



## BALANCE

NotLikeYou said:


> Gee, BALANCE, it looks like you have done a swell job of figuring out your basic expectations. At least as long as you define "expectation" as "just words that don't mean anything."


What do you mean here? Are the expectations to vague? Are you saying my wife doesn't think they mean anything? 

Could you clarify it for me a bit?


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Balance...

Just for a moment flip positions with her you are now the one who feels betrayed...

She comes up to you and says...

1. You need to be more open
2. You need to love me
3. You need to respect me


How would you respond?Defensively? Sure.

Now communication is a necessity in many cases but any ultimatums are going to fall on deaf each and every time. 

I think you need to learn communication 101



That's what you got... she heard you stop talking

Acting a certain way says a lot more than any words.

Watch EVERYTHING you say...it can and WILL be used agianst you.
Say little be direct and to he point then LISTEN!

Keep that foot out of your mouth.


----------



## BALANCE

Laurae1967 said:


> This is the crux of the problem with your wife. Until she feels like she is emotionally safe in the relationship, things will not get better.
> 
> What I mean by that is this - your wife has certain needs that she obviously feels you are not meeting. She has a responsibility to figure out what needs SHE needs to be meeting for herself and which needs are reasonable for her to expect you to meet.
> 
> Please pay attention to what your wife has told you about your past unwillingness to acknowledge or apologize for things you have done to hurt her. This has a HUGE negative impact on a marriage.


One of the big issues is she has not been openly sharing her needs with me. As I mentioned, she has somewhat overwhelming parents and a lot of siblings so she never had a very clear "voice" growing up. She tends to just go along with what others want to do. I'm not really sure she even knows what some of her needs are.



Laurae1967 said:


> See, now this seems like really scary thinking. So you only give her an apology if she will forgive you? So unless you get forgiveness you are not sorry for hurting her? I don't get it.


To clarify, this is not something I have done just a thought that I had. I guess it was mainly based on some of the, "only give what you get" thinking. I am truly sorry for hurting her. It's not about me not being sorry unless I get forgiveness it's about me doing my part to try and heal the marriage and her not doing her part.

But, it's probably not a great idea. Thanks for the heads up.


----------



## BALANCE

AFEH said:


> I think the opposite. In that I think it very wise to let her share her resentments with you. These things really do need to be in the open and cleared up wherever possible. If they are not cleared up they eventually kill the marriage simply because while they are there love cannot blossom and grow. In fact love very much takes a back seat in the marriage.


It did seem to have a healing affect for her. Overall I'm not sure she really wants to have a whole list of things to throw at me. I think if we can get to the point where she feels safe and cared for she will let the past go. One big questions would be whether she can get there on her own, as in the marriage is on hold and I back off until she feels safe, or I try to be involved and work through this stuff with her.


----------



## BALANCE

Trying2figureitout said:


> Balance...
> 
> Just for a moment flip positions with her you are now the one who feels betrayed...
> 
> She comes up to you and says...
> 
> 1. You need to be more open
> 2. You need to love me
> 3. You need to respect me
> 
> 
> How would you respond?Defensively? Sure.
> 
> Now communication is a necessity in many cases but any ultimatums are going to fall on deaf each and every time.
> 
> I think you need to learn communication 101
> 
> 
> 
> That's what you got... she heard you stop talking
> 
> Acting a certain way says a lot more than any words.
> 
> Watch EVERYTHING you say...it can and WILL be used agianst you.
> Say little be direct and to he point then LISTEN!
> 
> Keep that foot out of your mouth.


It's quite possible that I screwed this up but I was just trying some of the "No More Mr. Nice Guy" ideas. I have some boundaries/expectations for this relationship. I explained them in a calm reasonable way. To me they all seemed like very reasonable expectations, but were things that were being pushed to the back burner. 

I want us to get to the point where we are both clearly communicating our needs. I think we have missed opportunities to meet each others needs, not so much because we didn't want to, but just because we were unaware of that particular need.

Also, I disagree with the "Can and will be used against you" line. This is a relationship not a court of law. Trust is paramount.


----------



## Chuckp47

Why would you disagree with that statement? She's using things you said 8 years ago as justification to treat you like a dog. At this point I'd be scared to tell her anything from fear I might hurt her tender feelings. 
Are the majority of her problems with you over past disagreements or were you a cheating, mean drunk, drug user, ect and haven't disclosed that to us? 
at some point grown ups learn to get over things and move on. If all she wants is for you to be sensitive to her without the same forethought for you, maybe you'd be better off doing anything other than hanging around waitin for her to change her mind about you. 
From my own experience I've learned that some people think that marriage means you get to use the other person as your own personal punching bag with no thought of their feelings. 
I'd set a time limit for things to turn around, tell her about it or don't. At the end of that time if things have not improved be ready to leave or keep putting up with it. Your choice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Trying2figureitout

BALANCE said:


> It's quite possible that I screwed this up but I was just trying some of the "No More Mr. Nice Guy" ideas. I have some boundaries/expectations for this relationship. I explained them in a calm reasonable way. To me they all seemed like very reasonable expectations, but were things that were being pushed to the back burner.
> 
> I want us to get to the point where we are both clearly communicating our needs. I think we have missed opportunities to meet each others needs, not so much because we didn't want to, but just because we were unaware of that particular need.
> 
> Also, I disagree with the "Can and will be used against you" line. This is a relationship not a court of law. Trust is paramount.


It's a Long process Balance!

It's a lot of NOT TALKING and a lot of DOING for a very long time.

I finally have gotten to the point where my wife is willing to have a two-way one hour uninterrupted discussion about us and where we are going. It will happen this weekend and every first weekend of each month. We will be discussing sex and all other aspects of our marriage together. She will be a participant in a two-way mutual discussion aimed at finding common ground and a resolution to our now "sexless" marriage. She will do most of the talking.

Prior to this it was me saying "We need to talk" every six months or so.... Now EVERY month we will have a scheduled discussion until we solve all of our issues together.

That took TWO YEARS of constant effort with zero reward or feedback from her... because I put in the time and was patient just now am I reaping the rewards of those efforts.

Give it time.


----------



## deejov

BALANCE said:


> I want us to get to the point where we are both clearly communicating our needs. I think we have missed opportunities to meet each others needs, not so much because we didn't want to, but just because we were unaware of that particular need.


Good for you. That's a productive step.


----------



## COguy

Honestly, though I know you're in a tough spot right now, I think you are in a really good position. You're coming to a realization about your wife's needs before it sounds like there's something else under the table (ie another guy).

You're getting to the ROOT of your wife's unhappiness, so you have to expect that there's going to be pain there. The important thing is that you're both being honest and real. That's important because now you know what you need to work on and how to make her happy. It's not going to change overnight, and you can't expect that she's going to flip a switch and become superwife, but you're at least on the road now and pointed in the right direction.

I think a good way to proceed is to be loving and respectful of what she's said and make genuine efforts to work on the things she's listed. Show some remorse not just with words but with actions. But also, spend some time on yourself. Get buff, find some hobbies outside of her, hang out with friends, do man stuff. Let her know that you are an attractive guy who's worth being with, but that you're awesome enough to be a good husband to her out of choice.


----------



## COguy

I would add though that I would think it would be prudent to start being suspicious of her activities. If you get a feeling in your gut that something isn't right, it probably isn't. If she starts getting protective of her phone or emails, starts doing the girls night out thing more often, starts dressing more provocatively, etc. You may want to run low-grade snooping, some checking of her phone records, texts, emails, etc. If you see some other guy popping into the picture, be on alert. Your wife is vulnerable right now.

From what you mentioned I wouldn't think there's another guy yet, but she's certainly very close to being open to it. Not being able to say she loves you is pretty good evidence of that.


----------



## BALANCE

Pretty low today. Can't seem to shake the dark cloud. I've read books and forums, I've talked with friends and family, I've met with counselors and pastors. Everybody has an opinion on what I should do. A hundred different ways to "fix" the problem. 

Frankly I'm tired. 

I'm open to personal growth but at some point my wife just has to love me for who I am. She clearly doesn't.

Not sure I can do it anymore.

I know, I'm supposed to be up-beat and positive so that she is attracted to me and I'm supposed to do this and do that. But I can't today. Today it's just the real me, hurt and broken. Take it or leave it.


----------



## COguy

BALANCE said:


> Pretty low today. Can't seem to shake the dark cloud. I've read books and forums, I've talked with friends and family, I've met with counselors and pastors. Everybody has an opinion on what I should do. A hundred different ways to "fix" the problem.
> 
> Frankly I'm tired.
> 
> I'm open to personal growth but at some point my wife just has to love me for who I am. She clearly doesn't.
> 
> Not sure I can do it anymore.
> 
> I know, I'm supposed to be up-beat and positive so that she is attracted to me and I'm supposed to do this and do that. But I can't today. Today it's just the real me, hurt and broken. Take it or leave it.


That's the HARD part. You're going to have a lot of days like that. In fact, that's going to be your attitude most of the time. What's going to push you through is knowing that you WANT to be married. If you WANT to make it work, you're going to have to start working to what she needs. Not sure if it helps but she probably feels the same way, maybe even more so. She doesn't want to meet your needs right now either, especially if she's feeling like you've neglected her for a long time.

Marriage is tough, and this is why. Because you constantly have to put your desires and wants behind another person's. Yes you can expect your wife to love you unconditionally, but it's going to be a ****ty marriage if both partners aren't working to meet their partner's needs.

If you decide it's not worth it, that's the decision you make, but I'd be willing to bet you'll have the same problem in your future relationships.


----------



## deejov

BALANCE said:


> I'm open to personal growth but at some point my wife just has to love me for who I am. She clearly doesn't.


Yeah, it sucks and it can be a huge blow to your self esteem to have your spouse say they don't love who you are as a person. Hang in there, one way or another, you will find your direction.

My husband is in a similar situation.

From my point of view... after you "talk" to someone several times about behavior that hurts you or isn't respectful, I started to think, well, that's just the way he is. And then it becomes, well, if that's who he is as a person, then I don't want to be with him. Does that make sense? 

And that's all you need to do. Not change who you are, but behave in a way that you are supportive to her needs, so that she is able to meet your needs. How do you that? By listening. By thinking about how you acted with each other when you were dating. 

It's too late at this point to say "what about my needs". 

Ever have a friend that constantly stood you up, borrowed money or gossiped about you, caused trouble? Eventually, you may have stopped being friends with them. Marriage is not always unconditional love.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

deejov said:


> Yeah, it sucks and it can be a huge blow to your self esteem to have your spouse say they don't love who you are as a person. Hang in there, one way or another, you will find your direction.
> 
> My husband is in a similar situation.
> 
> From my point of view... after you "talk" to someone several times about behavior that hurts you or isn't respectful, I started to think, well, that's just the way he is. And then it becomes, well, if that's who he is as a person, then I don't want to be with him. Does that make sense?
> 
> And that's all you need to do. Not change who you are, but behave in a way that you are supportive to her needs, so that she is able to meet your needs. How do you that? By listening. By thinking about how you acted with each other when you were dating.
> 
> It's too late at this point to say "what about my needs".
> 
> Ever have a friend that constantly stood you up, borrowed money or gossiped about you, caused trouble? Eventually, you may have stopped being friends with them. Marriage is not always unconditional love.


Marriage SHOULD be different. You are not just a friend.... you are a spouse.

It's crazy when a wife shuts down sexually/emotionally for no good reason.

What on earth did your spouse do to you ????? To shut down on him and make him live in a virtual sham of a marriage? Short of physical abuse, verbal abuse, cheating or chronic addictions..... there is no good reason to shut down. That is a dishonoring your vow. Just leave him if it hurts so much do him a favor. Frankly if you shut down then leave. Or are you into he vindictive stage?

Marriage vow..."To have and to hold" have you honored that?


----------



## deejov

Trying2figureitout said:


> Marriage SHOULD be different. You are not friend you are spouses.
> 
> It's crazy when a wife shuts down sexually for no good reason.
> 
> What on earth did your spouse do to you ????? To shut down on him and make him live in a virtual sham of a marriage?


Good reasons. For me.
Listened to what I asked for. Ignored it. Kept doing what I asked him not to. I got mad. Lied and hid the behavior instead. 
Did not put me first.

Date night. Gets a call from beer buddy, forgets we have plans. Comes home half swacked 3 hrs late from work. Anniversay weekend away. Gets drunk both nights and leaves me in the hotel room alone because I refused to go the bar. Too hungover the next day to do anything with me. 

Tells me he will quit drinking. Reality... just starts leaving work early to go the bar and get home at usual time. Got caught both times. Thinks I'm stupid, I guess.

Too tired to have sex. Shower jobs every morning. I get nothing. My timing is always wrong, or he is depressed. He hates his job, I'm too demanding. Why can't I just give him bj everyday instead? Goes to a bar, gets a bj from his ex gf instead. I find out from his friend. I make plans to move out.
Says there is nothing wrong. Loves me to death. Please don't leave. 

Made plans with his buddies for Friday, Saturday. Gets bored on Sunday, looking around for me. I'm not there. Go figure. 

Has a general attitude that no matter what he does, as long as he says I'm sorry, things should all good. I try for the 4th time to say what my needs are. He says "don't ask me to change". So I don't. I accept you the way you are. And you don't deserve me. If it's that important to you to be that selfish, have a nice life. 

See my point?


----------



## SockPuppet

BALANCE said:


> I did fight pretty hard for the need vs. desire. In the end she just said, "I hear what you area saying, you think it is a need," But of course she doesn't really acknowledge that it is so I still feel unheard.
> 
> She did say that it isn't a sex drive thing for her. She has told me in the past that she "takes care of herself" a couple times a week. So really our need for sex is about the same. She just doesn't want it with me.


Men want sex, but need a deep emotional connection to properly love their wives. We get that deep emotional connection from sex.

Actually, men need sex from wives who enjoy having sex with them to fully commit to the relationship.

Actually, it doesnt matter whether its a want or need. It doesnt matter if your wife takes the stance that your view on the matter is "need" and her reality is "want".

All that matters is how you feel on the subject. If you want sex 2-3x per week, and she doesnt, you have to think about whether you really want/need it that much and what your going to do if she doesnt anty up. Just make sure you're willing to compromise on the subject, dont go "my way or the highway" approach. That isnt manned up, thats being a jerk.



BALANCE said:


> If we both have needs that contradict each other how do we compromise if neither one of us wants to back down. Shouldn't there be some sacrifice in a relationship?


If neither of you i willing to back down or give in, then divorce or slowly allowing pain and resntment to build up, which will equal future divorce are your only two options... although, if you never read the NMMNG book, Id offer you a 3rd option: Be your wifes ***** and live in self-pity until the day you (or she) dies.

There have to be sacrifices in marriage as few people, if any, are so similar in their wants/needs. But you have shown your not willing to sacrifice, so you can expect the same from her.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

deejov said:


> Good reasons. For me.
> Listened to what I asked for. Ignored it. Kept doing what I asked him not to. I got mad. Lied and hid the behavior instead.
> Did not put me first.
> 
> Date night. Gets a call from beer buddy, forgets we have plans. Comes home half swacked 3 hrs late from work. Anniversay weekend away. Gets drunk both nights and leaves me in the hotel room alone because I refused to go the bar. Too hungover the next day to do anything with me.
> 
> Tells me he will quit drinking. Reality... just starts leaving work early to go the bar and get home at usual time. Got caught both times. Thinks I'm stupid, I guess.
> 
> Too tired to have sex. Shower jobs every morning. I get nothing. My timing is always wrong, or he is depressed. He hates his job, I'm too demanding. Why can't I just give him bj everyday instead? Goes to a bar, gets a bj from his ex gf instead. I find out from his friend. I make plans to move out.
> Says there is nothing wrong. Loves me to death. Please don't leave.
> 
> Made plans with his buddies for Friday, Saturday. Gets bored on Sunday, looking around for me. I'm not there. Go figure.
> 
> Has a general attitude that no matter what he does, as long as he says I'm sorry, things should all good. I try for the 4th time to say what my needs are. He says "don't ask me to change". So I don't. I accept you the way you are. And you don't deserve me. If it's that important to you to be that selfish, have a nice life.
> 
> See my point?


Why do you stay.. I see your point. You deserve better. Shutting down is the cowardly way out IMO


----------



## deejov

Accept me the way I am... could mean "I am really truly a jerk, and don't expect anything better from me". That is cowardly.

Standing at the door with your bags packed and plans made for a future on your own... and my husband has suddenly realised he gets what I am saying, and is going to IC, not drinking, and actually listening to what I am saying. For me.. it takes courage to buck up and give him the chance to PROVE he can try to work on this. 

If I can get over what he has done, and give him time to show his actions mean well. 

I can understand where the OP wife is coming from. So can a few others. Women don't become walkway wives over the toilet seat being up. But it doesn't mean things can't change.


----------



## BALANCE

SockPuppet said:


> There have to be sacrifices in marriage as few people, if any, are so similar in their wants/needs. But you have shown your not willing to sacrifice, so you can expect the same from her.


Where have I shown this? I have made sacrifices. I've already mentioned that I have made major changes over the past 2-3 years. 

I was just asking the question because it seems that in some of the Man Up stuff it talks about standing your ground with your boundaries and I was asking how you balance that with sacrifice.


----------



## BALANCE

deejov said:


> Good reasons. For me.
> Listened to what I asked for. Ignored it. Kept doing what I asked him not to. I got mad. Lied and hid the behavior instead.
> Did not put me first.
> 
> Date night. Gets a call from beer buddy, forgets we have plans. Comes home half swacked 3 hrs late from work. Anniversay weekend away. Gets drunk both nights and leaves me in the hotel room alone because I refused to go the bar. Too hungover the next day to do anything with me.
> 
> Tells me he will quit drinking. Reality... just starts leaving work early to go the bar and get home at usual time. Got caught both times. Thinks I'm stupid, I guess.
> 
> Too tired to have sex. Shower jobs every morning. I get nothing. My timing is always wrong, or he is depressed. He hates his job, I'm too demanding. Why can't I just give him bj everyday instead? Goes to a bar, gets a bj from his ex gf instead. I find out from his friend. I make plans to move out.
> Says there is nothing wrong. Loves me to death. Please don't leave.
> 
> Made plans with his buddies for Friday, Saturday. Gets bored on Sunday, looking around for me. I'm not there. Go figure.
> 
> Has a general attitude that no matter what he does, as long as he says I'm sorry, things should all good. I try for the 4th time to say what my needs are. He says "don't ask me to change". So I don't. I accept you the way you are. And you don't deserve me. If it's that important to you to be that selfish, have a nice life.
> 
> See my point?


For the record I have not done anything that comes close to this type of behavior. Oh, there might be times that I didn't listen as well as I should have or that I slipped up and did some annoying habit that she asked me not to do but nothing like the stuff you are describing.

My typical day would be to get up and help get the kids to school. I drive them to school and go to a stable job. I'm home around 5:20pm almost every night. Ocassionally I have a overnight work trip but thats like 2-3 times a year. I give my wife and kids hugs and change cloths. I put in a load of laundry and then head back to the kitchen where I talk to my wife about her day and help her prepare dinner. Often i will give her little mini back rubs or shoulder rubs while we talk. Then we eat dinner. Afterwards i either play with the kids or go do the grocery shopping. When I get back I do another load of laundry and I help put the kids to bed. Then we settle in on the couch and watch some TV and talk. Friday nights are date night so we either go out or do something fun at home. I will sometimes try to squeeze in a football game on Saturday but not always and never if there is something else the family wants to do. Most of the weekend is made up of going to the library, running errands taking kids to birthday parties, home repairs or mowing the lawn.

I don't drink
I don't smoke
I don't use drugs
I've never cheated on her

I'm not perfect, obviously, but I'm not anything like your husband.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

BALANCE said:


> For the record I have not done anything that comes close to this type of behavior. Oh, there might be times that I didn't listen as well as I should have or that I slipped up and did some annoying habit that she asked me not to do but nothing like the stuff you are describing.
> 
> My typical day would be to get up and help get the kids to school. I drive them to school and go to a stable job. I'm home around 5:20pm almost every night. Ocassionally I have a overnight work trip but thats like 2-3 times a year. I give my wife and kids hugs and change cloths. I put in a load of laundry and then head back to the kitchen where I talk to my wife about her day and help her prepare dinner. Often i will give her little mini back rubs or shoulder rubs while we talk. Then we eat dinner. Afterwards i either play with the kids or go do the grocery shopping. When I get back I do another load of laundry and I help put the kids to bed. Then we settle in on the couch and watch some TV and talk. Friday nights are date night so we either go out or do something fun at home. *I will sometimes try to squeeze in a football game on Saturday but not always and never if there is something else the family wants to do.* Most of the weekend is made up of going to the library, running errands taking kids to birthday parties, home repairs or mowing the lawn.
> 
> I don't drink
> I don't smoke
> I don't use drugs
> I've never cheated on her
> 
> I'm not perfect, obviously, but I'm not anything like your husband.


Actually, I see this as a bit of a problem. Where is your time in all of this? When do you get to do something that you want to do. Lots of emphasis on the kids and her, and mostly ignoring you. That needs to change. You don't need to be a jerk, but you do need some time for yourself and your interests. In changing your bad habits, have you forgotten about yourself?


----------



## BALANCE

Tall Average Guy said:


> Actually, I see this as a bit of a problem. Where is your time in all of this? When do you get to do something that you want to do. Lots of emphasis on the kids and her, and mostly ignoring you. That needs to change. You don't need to be a jerk, but you do need some time for yourself and your interests. In changing your bad habits, have you forgotten about yourself?


It's true I don't spend a lot of time dong my own thing. This year I did start a new hobby, but it is a warm weather hobby so I need to find something new for the winter (ideas anyone?). She does watch "my shows" in the evening too so there is some of my interests being met there too.

And I do love my kids so going places with them is something I want to do. Honestly I'm not sure how some guys find the time to do stuff. I hear about guys watching 3-4 football games between Sat-Mon, thats 9-12 hours. And I have friends that play golf almost every weekend in the summer. Thats like 6 hours every Saturday. I just don't think I could do that.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

BALANCE said:


> It's true I don't spend a lot of time dong my own thing. This year I did start a new hobby, but it is a warm weather hobby so I need to find something new for the winter (ideas anyone?). She does watch "my shows" in the evening too so there is some of my interests being met there too.
> 
> And I do love my kids so going places with them is something I want to do. Honestly I'm not sure how some guys find the time to do stuff. I hear about guys watching 3-4 football games between Sat-Mon, thats 9-12 hours. And I have friends that play golf almost every weekend in the summer. Thats like 6 hours every Saturday. I just don't think I could do that.


How much time a week do you spend on yourself? Compare that with how much time a week does your wife spend on herself. The actual number depends on your life, including work and kids. But you need to keep that in balance as well. You need to look after you and make sure that you don't get swallowed up in the role of husband and father. 

I will say that my marriage definitely benefited by me being a tiny bit more shelfish and doing some things for me. Looking back, I was unintentionally sending the message that what I was not as important. Doing things for me sent the message that I am of equal importance. That is important for a marriage.


----------



## BALANCE

Tall Average Guy said:


> How much time a week do you spend on yourself? Compare that with how much time a week does your wife spend on herself.


I guess this depends on what you mean by, "time spent on yourself." On the weekends if the kids are watching a movie or otherwise occupied I might go play a video game or surf the web.

My wife goes out for about 3-4 hours every Monday night for coffee with girl friends. That is probably the most that she actually gets out on her own. I'm probably closer to half that time spent going out on my own, but I do get out a lot more to do shopping and other errands.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

BALANCE said:


> It's true I don't spend a lot of time dong my own thing. This year I did start a new hobby, but it is a warm weather hobby so I need to find something new for the winter (ideas anyone?). She does watch "my shows" in the evening too so there is some of my interests being met there too.
> 
> And I do love my kids so going places with them is something I want to do. Honestly I'm not sure how some guys find the time to do stuff. I hear about guys watching 3-4 football games between Sat-Mon, thats 9-12 hours. And I have friends that play golf almost every weekend in the summer. Thats like 6 hours every Saturday. I just don't think I could do that.


BALANCE,

In my mind, the question is whether or not you are doing what you want or doing what you feel compelled to do. If you can look into your heart and honestly say "This is what I want to be doing, there is nothing else I would rather do" then you are good.

Myself, I read aloud to my kids for relaxation. I read "Call of the Wild" to my sons for an hour whenever I can. I also help them build model boats and play basketball. These are all winter activities.


----------



## BALANCE

Ten_year_hubby said:


> BALANCE,
> 
> In my mind, the question is whether or not you are doing what you want or doing what you feel compelled to do. If you can look into your heart and honestly say "This is what I want to be doing, there is nothing else I would rather do" then you are good.
> 
> Myself, I read aloud to my kids for relaxation. I read "Call of the Wild" to my sons for an hour whenever I can. I also help them build model boats and play basketball. These are all winter activities.


I do have some "Nice Guy" tendencies but I really don't feel like I'm doing things because I'm trying to earn love. Well, ok, sometimes I do stuff with the family that I'm really not all that interested in but who doesn't? I've been "forced" to do things with my in-laws that I honestly thought would bore me to death. But, I've also out right refused to do certain things they wanted me to do because it just wasn't an activity that interested me at all.

I forgot I have started taking up figure drawing as another hobby. Also good excuse to get my wife to lay naked on the couch while I draw her. I just wish it turned her on like it turns me on.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

BALANCE said:


> I do have some "Nice Guy" tendencies but I really don't feel like I'm doing things because I'm trying to earn love. Well, ok, sometimes I do stuff with the family that I'm really not all that interested in but who doesn't? I've been "forced" to do things with my in-laws that I honestly thought would bore me to death. But, I've also out right refused to do certain things they wanted me to do because it just wasn't an activity that interested me at all.
> 
> I forgot I have started taking up figure drawing as another hobby. Also good excuse to get my wife to lay naked on the couch while I draw her. I just wish it turned her on like it turns me on.


Very Titanic of you. All you need is the backseat of an old car.

What has worked seemingly in my marriage is time and putting some pressure on my wife at year two of this. I've seen more change in her in two months than I had in two years. In fact so much change my sexless marriage is off my mind. Yet we aren't having sex yet... however I feel its right there perhaps starting next weekend. 

I think you need to allow time to heal emotionally (her) and also you! let her see you behaving appropriately over time without regards for your needs. I don't think it works reminding her over and over initially...you almost have to get to the point you are ok without her and also to the point that she knows you are her best option. For me that was year two. The difference now is I see the end of the tunnel and I fell completely normal again... results and change make that happen.


Now at year two I've hit her from a variety of directions. It just keeps her off balance enough as to want to eventually just get back to a normal sexual marriage. She is as ready to end this sexless-ness as much as I and everyday we are working together closer to that goal. It's the being there for her through it all and unwavering that has helped me. I am very patient because I want and deserve a PERMANENT FIX.

It's just playing the game.... eventually the wives realize "They are part of the problem" and want to remedy it and move on.... they never see that initially it takes time. Like I said its like an Iceberg... strong formidable at the beginning until it travels to warmer water then they weaken and melt. I'm in that weakening stage... the end result will be a MORE sexual relationship than ever before because it's the right thing for us. We will go from monthly to weekly. This was a "course correction" which has been hell in many ways but what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. 

Time, consistency and patience are your friends.
Then taking a risk and not being afraid of losing her can melt the iceberg. But only after enough time has passed.

Lots of nothing until it happens... takes making them see how serious you are and then letting them figure it out.

It bites when you are in limbo... but make a plan and make sure your needs at some point get known. Best to hook her first before you do that.


----------



## BALANCE

Trying2figureitout said:


> Very Titanic of you.


It is. She likes to draw too so it's a nice shared interest. You'd think after an evening of wine and drawing each other naked in front of the fire she'd be in the mood. But nope.


----------



## 2sick

BALANCE said:


> Do you think it was unwise to let her share some of her resentments and apologies for them? I really would like to just move on and start building a better relationship. A lot of the things feel like she just wants me to finally admit that I was wrong about something. Should I stop letting bring all that stuff back up with me?


Balance, you keep saying you apologize for hurting her, however I have this feeling that you are saying it like a child would say to a parent...meaning "I'm sorry and I promise never to do it again"... kind of thing that you know as a parent is just pure and simple BS and they are just saying it to say it. I'm in NO WAY saying that is how you feel, but I'm saying that that might be the way she is taking it. Especially if she give you a laundry list and you just say sorry dear didn't mean to hurt you.

Coming from the resenting wife side, I will admit that I will bring up past incidents to show that there is still the on going patterns that started the resentment to begin with. Women have memories like elephants, we remember just about everything that has hurt us in the past and some of us will instinctively tried to protect ourselves from being hurt again in that manner. Therefore, if you even seem to be going down the path that leads to that hurt she's going to bulk. Not saying that that is the correct thing to do all the time, just that it does happen.

Again NOT putting all the blame on you, she has a bunch of it on her side. I was just solely responding to your question about you apologizing for hurting her.


----------



## COguy

BALANCE said:


> It is. She likes to draw too so it's a nice shared interest. You'd think after an evening of wine and drawing each other naked in front of the fire she'd be in the mood. But nope.


Most women need to feel emotionally connected and supported before they will desire sex with their husband. My marriage is proof of this. I went from sex a dozen times a year. I saw messages to her friends and EA partner that she was not physically attracted to me at all.

After the affair, now that we are extremely close emotionally, we have more sex then when we were first married, and sometimes she'll jump on me and tell me how she can't resist how sexy and hot I am.

It's not that she was lying to her friends or that she's lying to me now. Women have an emotional connection to their sexual attraction. If she doesn't feel loved, she's not going to find you attractive. Fortunately, the flip is also true, you can be an ugly fat-body and if you keep her love tank full she's going to find you irresistible.

I'm speaking in generalities but I think this holds true for most women. If you're wife used to have sex with you more frequently but now doesn't, that's a good sign that she's not connected to you anymore (assuming nothing medical is wrong).


----------



## 2sick

AFEH said:


> I think the opposite. In that I think it very wise to let her share her resentments with you. These things really do need to be in the open and cleared up wherever possible. If they are not cleared up they eventually kill the marriage simply because while they are there love cannot blossom and grow. In fact love very much takes a back seat in the marriage.
> ... This is a symptom of not confronting the issues/offences as they occur. Overtime what actually happened becomes lost and at the same time gets embellished, very much like false memory syndrome.
> 
> And of course you may well minimise the “affect” of one of your offences because you wouldn’t have responded in the same way to the same offence. And if you were to minimise you are shouting out that your wife’s feelings are of no significance to you....


Very well put!!! I think that for that reason alone you have to have an open and honest relationship with LOTS of communication!! Too many things get misconstrued and just by slipping them under the carpet you think it's gone but just like dust it accumulates and becomes a disgusting mess.


----------



## 2sick

BALANCE said:


> It did seem to have a healing affect for her. Overall I'm not sure she really wants to have a whole list of things to throw at me. I think if we can get to the point where she feels safe and cared for she will let the past go. One big questions would be whether she can get there on her own, as in the marriage is on hold and I back off until she feels safe, or I try to be involved and work through this stuff with her.


In my opinion, I really thing you need to get involved and work through it with her. You said communicating her resentments seemed to start the healing process. It sounds like she didn't think you were listening before and that have started to do that. So don't stop now!!!!


----------



## 2sick

COguy said:


> Most women need to feel emotionally connected and supported before they will desire sex with their husband. My marriage is proof of this. I went from sex a dozen times a year. I saw messages to her friends and EA partner that she was not physically attracted to me at all.
> 
> After the affair, now that we are extremely close emotionally, we have more sex then when we were first married, and sometimes she'll jump on me and tell me how she can't resist how sexy and hot I am.
> 
> It's not that she was lying to her friends or that she's lying to me now. Women have an emotional connection to their sexual attraction. If she doesn't feel loved, she's not going to find you attractive. Fortunately, the flip is also true, you can be an ugly fat-body and if you keep her love tank full she's going to find you irresistible.
> 
> I'm speaking in generalities but I think this holds true for most women. If you're wife used to have sex with you more frequently but now doesn't, that's a good sign that she's not connected to you anymore (assuming nothing medical is wrong).


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## BALANCE

2sick said:


> Balance, you keep saying you apologize for hurting her, however I have this feeling that you are saying it like a child would say to a parent...meaning "I'm sorry and I promise never to do it again"... kind of thing that you know as a parent is just pure and simple BS and they are just saying it to say it. I'm in NO WAY saying that is how you feel, but I'm saying that that might be the way she is taking it. Especially if she give you a laundry list and you just say sorry dear didn't mean to hurt you.
> 
> Coming from the resenting wife side, I will admit that I will bring up past incidents to show that there is still the on going patterns that started the resentment to begin with. Women have memories like elephants, we remember just about everything that has hurt us in the past and some of us will instinctively tried to protect ourselves from being hurt again in that manner. Therefore, if you even seem to be going down the path that leads to that hurt she's going to bulk. Not saying that that is the correct thing to do all the time, just that it does happen.
> 
> Again NOT putting all the blame on you, she has a bunch of it on her side. I was just solely responding to your question about you apologizing for hurting her.


I think it's possible that my apologies do not carry the emotional weight that her hurt does (does that make sense?) Some of these things are so long ago, some I don't even remember so it's hard to feel "in the moment" again. However, I have broken down and cried and very emotionally apologized for the hurt that I have caused her.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

BALANCE said:


> I think it's possible that my apologies do not carry the emotional weight that her hurt does (does that make sense?) Some of these things are so long ago, some I don't even remember so it's hard to feel "in the moment" again. However, I have broken down and cried and very emotionally apologized for the hurt that I have caused her.


Please don't cry it makes you look weak! Best thing is apologize sincerely once and move on.
If she brings it up again say "I already apologized what do you want my blood too?" throw it back at her and be consistent in your now improved behaviors.

Make the past the past! I even told my wife "We are done talking about he past I did this at the two years mark from ILYNILWY" so she is no longer able to bring it up. Right now its all about either moving closer or apart to divorce.

Makes it simple. She can pick A or B. So far its A.

Look strong and determined in your wife's eyes...NOT WEAK.


----------



## BALANCE

So tonight we are going to have another talk. She's spent the week writing up some of her expectations to share with me.

There is one thing I'm not sure how to handle (I say as if I have everything else all figured out) I know she wants me to stop doubting her love for me. She wants me not to say, "you don't love me" and instead say, "I feel unloved." Trouble is I have said that and I have told her what would make me feel loved (this is based on the LL book) but she refuses to do those things, i.e. saying, "I love you" and sex. 

How can I not doubt her love when she knows how to demonstrate love to me in a way that will make me feel loved but refused to do it?


----------



## BALANCE

Trying2figureitout said:


> Please don't cry it makes you look weak! Best thing is apologize sincerely once and move on.
> If she brings it up again say "I already apologized what do you want my blood too?" throw it back at her and be consistent in your now improved behaviors.
> 
> Make the past the past! I even told my wife "We are done talking about he past I did this at the two years mark from ILYNILWY" so she is no longer able to bring it up. Right now its all about either moving closer or apart to divorce.
> 
> Makes it simple. She can pick A or B. So far its A.
> 
> Look strong and determined in your wife's eyes...NOT WEAK.


OK, maybe that sounded like I was crying and begging for forgiveness or something.
I'm not sure I agree with the idea that crying=weakness. I don't cry a lot, but I'm not ashamed to if I am truly moved.


----------



## 2sick

BALANCE said:


> I think it's possible that my apologies do not carry the emotional weight that her hurt does (does that make sense?) Some of these things are so long ago, some I don't even remember so it's hard to feel "in the moment" again. However, I have broken down and cried and very emotionally apologized for the hurt that I have caused her.


Yes that makes complete sense!! It makes even more sense if you repeat the actions again. If you have not repeated the hurtful behavior then to be honest, not much more for you to do...NOT saying it's all over, just saying it's on her...and yes even if it's on her, you can try and talk it out with her. Try to get her to express how she's feeling and what you did that hurt you...because frankly, she may actually be hurt by something completely different than what you are apologizing for.

I have to say again I truly admire that you are trying so hard ...as Dr. Phil says every relationship needs a hero...someone that steps forward and takes action first...I just hope that she will join you because it takes two to make a marriage last!!!


----------



## Trying2figureitout

BALANCE said:


> So tonight we are going to have another talk. She's spent the week writing up some of her expectations to share with me.
> 
> There is one thing I'm not sure how to handle (I say as if I have everything else all figured out) I know she wants me to stop doubting her love for me. She wants me not to say, "you don't love me" and instead say, "I feel unloved." Trouble is I have said that and I have told her what would make me feel loved (this is based on the LL book) but she refuses to do those things, i.e. saying, "I love you" and sex.
> 
> How can I not doubt her love when she knows how to demonstrate love to me in a way that will make me feel loved but refused to do it?


Quit telling her what you need her to do... she will always refuse. Suggest instead...over and over suggest.

I'd start with sex (basic marriage expectation) then the ILY's will come.

Say to her "I don't doubt your love for me" We need to get to the point of having sex x times per Y to feel me to feel closest to you emotionally. I'm a man I need to see you orgasm and then cum inside you that makes me feel close to you.

Say that over and over in different ways it'll finally sink in. No ultimatums just suggestions over and over.

Sooner or later she will see that it's easier just to have sex and then she'll realize she was stupid holding out.


----------



## BALANCE

Trying2figureitout said:


> Quit telling her what you need her to do... she will always refuse. Suggest instead...over and over suggest.
> 
> I'd start with sex (basic marriage expectation) then the ILY's will come.
> 
> Say to her "I don't doubt your love for me" We need to get to the point of having sex x times per Y to feel me to feel closest to you emotionally. I'm a man I need to see you orgasm and then cum inside you that makes me feel close to you.
> 
> Say that over and over in different ways it'll finally sink in. No ultimatums just suggestions over and over.
> 
> Sooner or later she will see that it's easier just to have sex and then she'll realize she was stupid holding out.


Yeah, it might be coming off a little too needy.

MAN UP! Damnit!


----------



## COguy

BALANCE said:


> So tonight we are going to have another talk. She's spent the week writing up some of her expectations to share with me.
> 
> There is one thing I'm not sure how to handle (I say as if I have everything else all figured out) I know she wants me to stop doubting her love for me. She wants me not to say, "you don't love me" and instead say, "I feel unloved." Trouble is I have said that and I have told her what would make me feel loved (this is based on the LL book) but she refuses to do those things, i.e. saying, "I love you" and sex.
> 
> How can I not doubt her love when she knows how to demonstrate love to me in a way that will make me feel loved but refused to do it?


You're doing the right thing. Be willing and open and honest with yourself. Be willing to meet her needs, listen as intently as you can not to what she is saying, but to the emotions of what she is conveying. If you really get to the root of what she wants and needs, and you start meeting those needs, if you approach your wife from a position of love and respect, then she will start to turn around.

I have a lot of hope for you, because obviously your wife has not given up on you. She's being open and honest and that means she still cares about the marriage. Meet her true needs, continue working on stopping the behaviors that hurt her, and she'll start to turn around. It will take some time, but trust takes time to rebuild. If you consistently give her new experiences that show you care about her and love her and support her, she will begin to realize you have changed.

I think there's a time and place for standing up and claiming you're not happy and you need XYZ for a solid marriage, I'm not sure if you're in that boat. If you are doing what you're doing and get no response after a few months, then I'd think about switching up the game plan, but I really think your wife just needs a little time. Your wife is hurt, she's been feeling neglected for years, you making demands of her is not going to show that you understand her pain.

Just like you don't FEEL loved by her even though you probably know she does love you, throughout your marriage, that's how she felt about you. She KNEW you loved her, but she didn't FEEL loved. For whatever reason you didn't do the things to her that she needed to FEEL loved, so she doubted that love. After a long enough time, she grew to believe that maybe you didn't love her.

To put the shoe on the other foot, if you're wife gives you no sex and doesn't say she loves you for a few years, you're going to be just as bitter and resentful as she was. Even if she started giving it to you every day and saying I love you every 5 seconds, you're going to wonder if she's going to slip back into old patterns. Maybe one day of no sex and you'd start to get worried that you're cut off again. It would take some time, a few weeks, maybe months, before you truly believed that she was changed and the new patterns were the "new normal".

I'm not trying to say you've been a bad husband or person, just that whatever you've been doing hasn't made her FEEL loved. And if it doesn't make her FEEL loved, then it's almost as if you did nothing. This is what I really had to understand before I had a breakthrough in my marriage. As a guy I rationalized that I was a good husband and that my wife was lucky, but I rationalized my way out of a happy wife. You sound like you're in the same boat. You ARE a good husband, many women would find your actions extremely sexy and be lucky to have you. But you have a wife that you're committed to and that you love living in your house and she's telling you she's not happy. Give that woman what she needs and I promise with some time she'll jump your bones.


----------



## 2sick

BALANCE said:


> So tonight we are going to have another talk. She's spent the week writing up some of her expectations to share with me.


And I hope your list will be included too!!!! You are just as important!

BTW IMO crying (not whining and acting like a baby) is a sign of manliness because you aren't afraid to show your feelings. (that said blubbering... not cool)

After reading COguys thread I have to modify mine!! That is beyond reasonable and rational advice. I still say bring your issues to the table, but not as a demand list... just as a point of opening up and sharing with her your feelings and emotions.


----------



## COguy

BALANCE said:


> Yeah, it might be coming off a little too needy.
> 
> MAN UP! Damnit!


I have to respectfully disagree wholeheartedly with Trying.

There may be a time and place for that, but now is not it, at least in my opinion.

I would guarantee that there is not a way you could say anything remotely close to that while giving your wife the impression that you care about what she has been saying and are understanding.

I'm all for manning up, but do it in the right way. The last thing a bitter wife wants to hear is how she should have sex with you. Even if you say it from a place of love and respect, she's going to take it as obligation and it's going to tack on the resentment.

I shared your story with my wife, we've been having crazy teenager sex for a few weeks and she knows I have absolutely no complaints in that department right now. I discussed with her how that subject could be approached and essentially the response was, no matter how you phrase it, she's going to feel obligated into it and it's going to turn her off. About the only way to say it where she didn't get discouraged was something like, "I really love you and really want to connect with you, this is how I feel connected. Just like I want to show you how much I love you and am working really hard on making you feel special, making love to you is what makes me feel special and connected." Now your wife knows what you need and doesn't feel obligated to have sex. If she has sex with you, you just got validation that she is looking to meet your needs.

I have related sex with my wife to doing the dishes (her love language is acts of service, you can sub this out for any activity your wife enjoys but you're not good at). I will not, under any circumstances, fantasize about doing dishes. I will not go into the shower and think about how awesome clean dishes are. I will not go online and look at websites for dishwashers. When my wife nagged me about how the dishes were always dirty and how I should help her out more by doing the dishes, I completely loathed doing them. I hated dishes. I wanted to use paper plates and silverware so I'd never have to do them.

When I figured out that my wife gets actual, real, pleasure out of having clean dishes. When that lightbulb went off for me and I realized that the feeling I get after screwing my wife is a similar feeling to what she gets when she comes home and the dishes are done and I'm helping her with the kids, I COULD NOT STOP DOING DISHES IF I TRIED. I love doing the dishes now!! That sounds so gay but I don't care, there is a rare moment in my house where there is a stray dish in the sink. If a big dinner is made, you will find me HAPPILY doing the dishes with a big crap-eating grin on my face like I'm getting a BJ. It's not just about running the heavy cycle and hearing the water noises, it's because I know that my wife is taking immense pleasure from what I'm doing. It's like I'm giving my wife a mind orgasm.

My wife (and probably yours) is the same way about sex. My wife doesn't fantasize about sex (or didn't at least). She won't go online and look at people screwing, she's not touching herself in the shower thinking of some big dildo inside of her. When I told my wife I wanted to have sex, she took as resentment and loathed it. She did stuff purposely to avoid sex, like not letting me touch or kiss her or hug her.

When my wife realized that I cared about her and wanted to please her, and she realized how sex made me feel, the lightbulb went off. She is like a sex-crazed monster now. She sends me dirty pictures and texts, she lets me do forbidden dangerous things to her in public places. She's jumping me around the house. It's not because she turned into a ****, it's because she figured out that it's how she meets my needs. We are both on the same page now, we both are 100% committed to meeting eachother's needs and that means that I WANT to help her around the house and with the kids, and she WANTS to have crazy end of world sex with me.

We got to that point though because we had a marriage-ending event to take us there. It was either we turned around and focused 100% or we were going to get divorced. You don't have that event, so it's going to take time and dedication for her to believe it. Stick with it, your time will come.


----------



## 2sick

coguy said:


> i have to respectfully disagree wholeheartedly with trying.
> 
> There may be a time and place for that, but now is not it, at least in my opinion.
> 
> I would guarantee that there is not a way you could say anything remotely close to that while giving your wife the impression that you care about what she has been saying and are understanding.
> 
> I'm all for manning up, but do it in the right way. The last thing a bitter wife wants to hear is how she should have sex with you. Even if you say it from a place of love and respect, she's going to take it as obligation and it's going to tack on the resentment.
> 
> I shared your story with my wife, we've been having crazy teenager sex for a few weeks and she knows i have absolutely no complaints in that department right now. I discussed with her how that subject could be approached and essentially the response was, no matter how you phrase it, she's going to feel obligated into it and it's going to turn her off. About the only way to say it where she didn't get discouraged was something like, "i really love you and really want to connect with you, this is how i feel connected. Just like i want to show you how much i love you and am working really hard on making you feel special, making love to you is what makes me feel special and connected." now your wife knows what you need and doesn't feel obligated to have sex. If she has sex with you, you just got validation that she is looking to meet your needs.
> 
> I have related sex with my wife to doing the dishes (her love language is acts of service, you can sub this out for any activity your wife enjoys but you're not good at). I will not, under any circumstances, fantasize about doing dishes. I will not go into the shower and think about how awesome clean dishes are. I will not go online and look at websites for dishwashers. When my wife nagged me about how the dishes were always dirty and how i should help her out more by doing the dishes, i completely loathed doing them. I hated dishes. I wanted to use paper plates and silverware so i'd never have to do them.
> 
> When i figured out that my wife gets actual, real, pleasure out of having clean dishes. When that lightbulb went off for me and i realized that the feeling i get after screwing my wife is a similar feeling to what she gets when she comes home and the dishes are done and i'm helping her with the kids, i could not stop doing dishes if i tried. I love doing the dishes now!! That sounds so gay but i don't care, there is a rare moment in my house where there is a stray dish in the sink. If a big dinner is made, you will find me happily doing the dishes with a big crap-eating grin on my face like i'm getting a bj. It's not just about running the heavy cycle and hearing the water noises, it's because i know that my wife is taking immense pleasure from what i'm doing. It's like i'm giving my wife a mind orgasm.
> 
> My wife (and probably yours) is the same way about sex. My wife doesn't fantasize about sex (or didn't at least). She won't go online and look at people screwing, she's not touching herself in the shower thinking of some big dildo inside of her. When i told my wife i wanted to have sex, she took as resentment and loathed it. She did stuff purposely to avoid sex, like not letting me touch or kiss her or hug her.
> 
> When my wife realized that i cared about her and wanted to please her, and she realized how sex made me feel, the lightbulb went off. She is like a sex-crazed monster now. She sends me dirty pictures and texts, she lets me do forbidden dangerous things to her in public places. She's jumping me around the house. It's not because she turned into a ****, it's because she figured out that it's how she meets my needs. We are both on the same page now, we both are 100% committed to meeting eachother's needs and that means that i want to help her around the house and with the kids, and she wants to have crazy end of world sex with me.
> 
> We got to that point though because we had a marriage-ending event to take us there. It was either we turned around and focused 100% or we were going to get divorced. You don't have that event, so it's going to take time and dedication for her to believe it. Stick with it, your time will come.


omg bingo!!!!!!


----------



## BALANCE

COguy said:


> When my wife realized that I cared about her and wanted to please her, and she realized how sex made me feel, the lightbulb went off. She is like a sex-crazed monster now. She sends me dirty pictures and texts, she lets me do forbidden dangerous things to her in public places. She's jumping me around the house. It's not because she turned into a ****, it's because she figured out that it's how she meets my needs. *We are both on the same page now, we both are 100% committed to meeting eachother's needs and that means that I WANT to help her around the house and with the kids, and she WANTS to have crazy end of world sex with me*.


I appreciate the encouragement.

What you described there is what I am trying to work towards. That has been my strategy. We are both good people, we both love each other we are just missing opportunities to meet each others needs. We both used control and manipulation to try and get our needs met but now I want us just to be open about them.
The struggle for me is when I lay out my needs clearly, i.e. sex. And she flat out refuses. And I have done it almost exactly like your wife described. I said, "for me to feel emotionally connected and loved I need to have sex." She said it wasn't a real need and she couldn't do it. So then what do I do? Just try and meet her needs as best I can and hope for change (basically what I have been trying to do the last year)? What would have happened in your marriage if you had flat out refused to do the dishes?

How I described it to her was we were missing something important and now we can finally see clearly. Our mindset should be, "Oh my gosh I had no idea you needed me to do xyz." There should be an urgency, there should be running. Running to meet the neglected need. But she seems apathetic and resistant. It just hurts me more and I end up feeling even more rejected.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

BALANCE said:


> I appreciate the encouragement.
> 
> What you described there is what I am trying to work towards. That has been my strategy. We are both good people, we both love each other we are just missing opportunities to meet each others needs. We both used control and manipulation to try and get our needs met but now I want us just to be open about them.
> The struggle for me is when I lay out my needs clearly, i.e. sex. And she flat out refuses. *And I have done it almost exactly like your wife described. I said, "for me to feel emotionally connected and loved I need to have sex." She said it wasn't a real need and she couldn't do it.* So then what do I do? Just try and meet her needs as best I can and hope for change (basically what I have been trying to do the last year)? What would have happened in your marriage if you had flat out refused to do the dishes?
> 
> How I described it to her was we were missing something important and now we can finally see clearly. Our mindset should be, "Oh my gosh I had no idea you needed me to do xyz." There should be an urgency, there should be running. Running to meet the neglected need. But she seems apathetic and resistant. It just hurts me more and I end up feeling even more rejected.


I think you need to call her on this statement. Ask her why she gets to define what your needs are. Ask how she would feel if she told you about a need and you said it was not a real need. She gets to chose whether she wants to try and meet one of your needs or not, but she does not get to define what your needs are. 

In addition, saying this allows her to ignore her responsibility in the marriage. Since sex isn't a need, she does not need to address this area of the marriage and does not have to focus at least on that choice she has made.


----------



## eagleclaw

You need to stop talking about your needs and coming across as weak. And for gods sake, you work full time, get the groceries, do the laundry, deal with the kids and have no time for yourself. Your a puppy chasing your wife around constantly hoping for some affection and a pat on the head.

People don't sleep with there puppies. There cute, but annoying after awhile. Seriously, you do need to MAN UP. Answer me this, why would your wife change anything.......she has you busting a nut to go over and above what is reasonable hoping she might pat your head and say she loves you. She's got a good thing going and is TOTALLY controlling you.

You need to think about yourself. Be yourself. Make time for yourself. And yes, have boundries. Boundries by the way, aren't things that your wife has cleared and said are ok for you to have.

Get your own life on track. Spend the time with your kids. Be fair and help out.... but if your wife is not working don't do all the home chores etc. You have a full time job.

Remember Ensteins quote about the definition of insanity being doing the same thing over and over and yet expecting different results. CHANGE YOUR TACTICS and behavior. You know chasing her will not work. My best advice is one, remember who you were when you met her and attracted her...... be THAT version of you. Assuming your a good man with your family and wifes best interest at heart..... don't worry about her getting angry, or cutting you off, or whatever. She's already doing all of that.

Tell her what YOU expect in 20 words or less. Then disengage from her. Do your own thing. Go out for a few hours in the evening with the guys (or a movie or whatever) just be gone a bit and make her wonder. (Don't tell her exactly what you are doing). Be mysterious. People stop moving away when you stop chasing them. Seriously, get your own life and live it. 

Don't initiate rubs, kisses, hugs, affections, discussions, anything. Let her do it.


----------



## BALANCE

Tall Average Guy said:


> I think you need to call her on this statement. Ask her why she gets to define what your needs are. Ask how she would feel if she told you about a need and you said it was not a real need. She gets to chose whether she wants to try and meet one of your needs or not, but she does not get to define what your needs are.
> 
> In addition, saying this allows her to ignore her responsibility in the marriage. Since sex isn't a need, she does not need to address this area of the marriage and does not have to focus at least on that choice she has made.


I did call her on it, and basically told her she doesn't get to decide what my needs are. Her "last word" was, "I hear what you are saying and I know that YOU think it is a need."

If it is a real need it doesn't seem like I should just let it go, but if I push it and make her feel obligated to do it she'll just resent me more. 

Tonight, I'm going to try really hard not to argue about it. I'm just putting it out there, "To feel loved I need physical affection and to to have sex." I guess the rest is really her responsibility. Then I just really need to be on the ball about meeting her needs.


----------



## BALANCE

eagleclaw said:


> You need to stop talking about your needs and coming across as weak. And for gods sake, you work full time, get the groceries, do the laundry, deal with the kids and have no time for yourself. Your a puppy chasing your wife around constantly hoping for some affection and a pat on the head.
> 
> People don't sleep with there puppies. There cute, but annoying after awhile. Seriously, you do need to MAN UP. Answer me this, why would your wife change anything.......she has you busting a nut to go over and above what is reasonable hoping she might pat your head and say she loves you. She's got a good thing going and is TOTALLY controlling you.
> 
> You need to think about yourself. Be yourself. Make time for yourself. And yes, have boundries. Boundries by the way, aren't things that your wife has cleared and said are ok for you to have.
> 
> Get your own life on track. Spend the time with your kids. Be fair and help out.... but if your wife is not working don't do all the home chores etc. You have a full time job.
> 
> Remember Ensteins quote about the definition of insanity being doing the same thing over and over and yet expecting different results. CHANGE YOUR TACTICS and behavior. You know chasing her will not work. My best advice is one, remember who you were when you met her and attracted her...... be THAT version of you. Assuming your a good man with your family and wifes best interest at heart..... don't worry about her getting angry, or cutting you off, or whatever. She's already doing all of that.
> 
> Tell her what YOU expect in 20 words or less. Then disengage from her. Do your own thing. Go out for a few hours in the evening with the guys (or a movie or whatever) just be gone a bit and make her wonder. (Don't tell her exactly what you are doing). Be mysterious. People stop moving away when you stop chasing them. Seriously, get your own life and live it.
> 
> Don't initiate rubs, kisses, hugs, affections, discussions, anything. Let her do it.


OK, so there is two totally different approaches here. And it seems that doing the wrong one could cause more damage. How am I supposed to know what to do?


----------



## COguy

BALANCE said:


> I appreciate the encouragement.
> 
> What you described there is what I am trying to work towards. That has been my strategy. We are both good people, we both love each other we are just missing opportunities to meet each others needs. We both used control and manipulation to try and get our needs met but now I want us just to be open about them.
> The struggle for me is when I lay out my needs clearly, i.e. sex. And she flat out refuses. And I have done it almost exactly like your wife described. I said, "for me to feel emotionally connected and loved I need to have sex." She said it wasn't a real need and she couldn't do it. So then what do I do? Just try and meet her needs as best I can and hope for change (basically what I have been trying to do the last year)? What would have happened in your marriage if you had flat out refused to do the dishes?
> 
> How I described it to her was we were missing something important and now we can finally see clearly. Our mindset should be, "Oh my gosh I had no idea you needed me to do xyz." There should be an urgency, there should be running. Running to meet the neglected need. But she seems apathetic and resistant. It just hurts me more and I end up feeling even more rejected.


If you've really been doing that for a year and you've been having these open-book conversations for a year, then yes you need to be more demanding. But from what I've read I was under the impression that these real heart to hearts is a new thing that just started recently.

I want to make it clear that I agree you need to not dote on her 24/7, be your own man, and learn to respect yourself. That is important for any relationship and especially so in my case.

Timing is a big issue in these though. If you have really JUST started meeting your wife's needs, it will take time for the resentment to fade. You can talk to your wife about this, ask her if what you're doing is meeting her needs. If she says yes, ask her how long she's felt that way.

I think you need to definitely make time for yourself, find out who you are and make sure you are your own person. Give your wife some time to turn around, be open about it. Ask her how long she thinks it could take to let go of some of the resentment.

You'll know when you can't take it anymore, at that point you'll need to make the decision to keep going or leave. From what you're telling me your wife is wanting to work it out and it sounds like you both hit the bottom and want to start making it better. Don't short-change yourself by coming off as an arrogant prick and pushing your wife in the emotional ****ter.

The "man up" phrase can mean a lot of things to a lot of people. To me it means, always knowing who you are and your values, not compromising on them. It means making time for yourself. But to me it also means being a patient, understanding husband.

There are guys who will get run over their whole lives, Extreme A. There are guys who will be demanding asshats who only think of themselves, Extreme B. For some reason guys tend to fantasize about being Extreme B (granted they probably get a lot more meaningless sex). Somewhere in the middle are good men who have happy wives and are good role-models for their kids.

Any assbag with a wiener can demand sex from his wife. To me a real man is his own man, but is strong enough to put his wife first if needed. There's a difference to that and being a doormat. From what your telling me it sounds like your wife is jaded and is going to come around. It doesn't make you a doormat to be patient with her. Like I said, if you continue for weeks and get NO response, then you're being a doormat.

Start some more hobbies and make sure you are your own person and not just a slave, but don't stop being the man your wife needs you to be. That happy ground is in your name: BALANCE, and it's not always easy to find.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

BALANCE said:


> I did call her on it, and basically told her she doesn't get to decide what my needs are. Her "last word" was, "I hear what you are saying and I know that YOU think it is a need."
> 
> If it is a real need it doesn't seem like I should just let it go, but if I push it and make her feel obligated to do it she'll just resent me more.
> 
> Tonight, I'm going to try really hard not to argue about it. I'm just putting it out there, "To feel loved I need physical affection and to to have sex." I guess the rest is really her responsibility. Then I just really need to be on the ball about meeting her needs.


As long as meeting her needs is not a one-way street. I don't mean to sound like a broken record, or like I am trying to derail the work that you are doing. Rather, I hope you are careful and vigilent about creating a marriage that is a partnership where both of you work to provide what the other needs. You working really hard to meet hers and her saying that your need isn't really a need and therefore not her concern is not the way to do that. She needs to show progress in resolving and letting go of her hurt and resentment. She also needs to show progress in providing support for you and meeting your needs. Just be careful that in working hard to meet her needs, you don't ignore or excuse the work that she should be doing as well.


----------



## 2sick

BALANCE said:


> I did call her on it, and basically told her she doesn't get to decide what my needs are. Her "last word" was, "I hear what you are saying and I know that YOU think it is a need."
> 
> If it is a real need it doesn't seem like I should just let it go, but if I push it and make her feel obligated to do it she'll just resent me more.
> 
> Tonight, I'm going to try really hard not to argue about it. I'm just putting it out there, "To feel loved I need physical affection and to to have sex." I guess the rest is really her responsibility. Then I just really need to be on the ball about meeting her needs.


And go one more step by saying that you want to emotionally meet her needs and you are willing to wait as long as it takes for her to feel the need to be emotionally connected to you to. Might sound a little manipulative but I am assuming that minus the "as long as it takes" part you feel that...and in fact if you do feel that she SHOULD sense it and hopefully ya won't need to wait for toooo much longer.


----------



## Halien

BALANCE said:


> The struggle for me is when I lay out my needs clearly, i.e. sex. And she flat out refuses. And I have done it almost exactly like your wife described. I said, "for me to feel emotionally connected and loved I need to have sex." She said it wasn't a real need and she couldn't do it. .


Balance,
Just my opinion, but I can't stress this point strongly enough, although many men will inherently disagree: By verbalizing that you are prioritizing sex as a primary need, it is incredibly easy for many guys to communicate this in a way that really sends the wrong signals to the wife. You say, "I need sex." She's hearing, "I need to perform an act on your body," or "I have so many doubts about my own masculinity that I need an agreement on how much sex will be involved within this relationship."

I'm really not trying to be harsh or insensitive, or to claim that I somehow have things figured out. Lets just say that I was lucky enough to find a pre-marital counsellor who really focused on this topic. When resentment is involved, I feel that it is pretty important that she feels like you consider yourself a very lucky man to be intimate with her, below the sexual act itself. I'd challenge you to make that the priority for a while, since I think you mentioned that you've struggled in the past with closeness for your part. I'm not talking about just sitting beside her. Maybe tell her that you want sex to be a positive experience for her, and would just like to focus on intimacy and her enjoyment of that for a while. Push the envelope as the days pass, but don't go further until she can't let you stop.

I think that I'd probably have a completely different, and negative, dynamic in our sexual relationship if I didn't let my wife know early each evening that I'm crazy about hugging, caressing, or cornering her for a long kiss. She has her own non-verbal ways for letting me know if she's going to be in the mood. The key for us is in not letting sex be an act - its an ongoing, building expression of desire for each other. She knows that its not an act that can be purchased from someone on a street corner.

I believe that some women really like the type of sexual relationship where sex is not talked about, but is led into through your confidence in making it an incredible experience for her. Don't let sex be the goal. If she is the goal, you'll get what you want out of it. Quit asking, but just be bold. Watch her body language and just do it. Recognize that it'll take a little time to change. she can build her own confidence through trust.

Maybe I'm just a lucky schmuck, but my wife says that I've never asked for sex verbally, and she's never said no. I do get the dreaded "I started" about once a month, though, which is pretty close, I guess.


----------



## BALANCE

Halien said:


> I believe that some women really like the type of sexual relationship where sex is not talked about, but is led into through your confidence in making it an incredible experience for her. Don't let sex be the goal. If she is the goal, you'll get what you want out of it. Quit asking, but just be bold. Watch her body language and just do it. Recognize that it'll take a little time to change. she can build her own confidence through trust.


I get what you are saying. I have phrased it as I need physical affection and a connection. 

When things were OK and we were having sex I didn't ask for it and I didn't get all obsessed about it. It's when it gets taken away, as in, "We need to take a break from sex" that it gets hard to be "natural" about it.

This also takes me back to another thread I posted about Teasing. Because to me her coming to bed in nothing but a thong is a clear green light, but then she will turn me down. So the body language doesn't seem to match up with what she wants. It's hard to be bold when everything is so messed up.


----------



## COguy

Tall Average Guy said:


> As long as meeting her needs is not a one-way street. I don't mean to sound like a broken record, or like I am trying to derail the work that you are doing. Rather, I hope you are careful and vigilent about creating a marriage that is a partnership where both of you work to provide what the other needs. You working really hard to meet hers and her saying that your need isn't really a need and therefore not her concern is not the way to do that. She needs to show progress in resolving and letting go of her hurt and resentment. She also needs to show progress in providing support for you and meeting your needs. Just be careful that in working hard to meet her needs, you don't ignore or excuse the work that she should be doing as well.


I think this is a great response to balance out what I was saying. It's a two way street. I would just add that your wife probably is trying right now, it may not look the way you want or be as much as you would really like though. The fact that she's in counseling talking to you about it, that she's expressed some desire to meet your needs. That's progress, and it's a good sign. Give her positive encouragement for the small changes she is making, it will make her want to go further.


----------



## Halien

BALANCE said:


> I get what you are saying. I have phrased it as I need physical affection and a connection.
> 
> When things were OK and we were having sex I didn't ask for it and I didn't get all obsessed about it. It's when it gets taken away, as in, "We need to take a break from sex" that it gets hard to be "natural" about it.
> 
> This also takes me back to another thread I posted about Teasing. Because to me her coming to bed in nothing but a thong is a clear green light, but then she will turn me down. So the body language doesn't seem to match up with what she wants. It's hard to be bold when everything is so messed up.


I can't find the reference to it, but did you once mention that she brought up some aspect of closeness where you admitted that you struggled with in the past? Sorry if I'm not remembering correctly, but I am wondering if this could be a bigger part of her problem? Its very easy for people to assume that the unmet needs are intentional, when they may only be misunderstood.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Halien said:


> Balance,
> Just my opinion, but I can't stress this point strongly enough, although many men will inherently disagree: By verbalizing that you are prioritizing sex as a primary need, it is incredibly easy for many guys to communicate this in a way that really sends the wrong signals to the wife. You say, "I need sex." She's hearing, "I need to perform an act on your body," or "I have so many doubts about my own masculinity that I need an agreement on how much sex will be involved within this relationship."
> 
> I'm really not trying to be harsh or insensitive, or to claim that I somehow have things figured out. Lets just say that I was lucky enough to find a pre-marital counsellor who really focused on this topic. When resentment is involved, I feel that it is pretty important that she feels like you consider yourself a very lucky man to be intimate with her, below the sexual act itself. I'd challenge you to make that the priority for a while, since I think you mentioned that you've struggled in the past with closeness for your part. I'm not talking about just sitting beside her. Maybe tell her that you want sex to be a positive experience for her, and would just like to focus on intimacy and her enjoyment of that for a while. Push the envelope as the days pass, but don't go further until she can't let you stop.
> 
> I think that I'd probably have a completely different, and negative, dynamic in our sexual relationship if I didn't let my wife know early each evening that I'm crazy about hugging, caressing, or cornering her for a long kiss. She has her own non-verbal ways for letting me know if she's going to be in the mood. The key for us is in not letting sex be an act - its an ongoing, building expression of desire for each other. She knows that its not an act that can be purchased from someone on a street corner.
> 
> I believe that some women really like the type of sexual relationship where sex is not talked about, but is led into through your confidence in making it an incredible experience for her. Don't let sex be the goal. If she is the goal, you'll get what you want out of it. Quit asking, but just be bold. Watch her body language and just do it. Recognize that it'll take a little time to change. she can build her own confidence through trust.
> 
> Maybe I'm just a lucky schmuck, but my wife says that I've never asked for sex verbally, and she's never said no. I do get the dreaded "I started" about once a month, though, which is pretty close, I guess.


I agree with this, and have found it true with my wife as well. She does not want to talk about sex, but is usually willing to let me lead us. As she has gotten comfortable with that, she also feels comfortable to suggest things or steer us in different directions.

Having said that, I understood the conversation about needs to have taken place during counseling, which is why some verbal discussion of his needs is necessary.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

COguy said:


> I have to respectfully disagree wholeheartedly with Trying.
> 
> There may be a time and place for that, but now is not it, at least in my opinion.
> 
> I would guarantee that there is not a way you could say anything remotely close to that while giving your wife the impression that you care about what she has been saying and are understanding.
> 
> I'm all for manning up, but do it in the right way. The last thing a bitter wife wants to hear is how she should have sex with you. Even if you say it from a place of love and respect, she's going to take it as obligation and it's going to tack on the resentment.
> 
> I shared your story with my wife, we've been having crazy teenager sex for a few weeks and she knows I have absolutely no complaints in that department right now. I discussed with her how that subject could be approached and essentially the response was, no matter how you phrase it, she's going to feel obligated into it and it's going to turn her off. About the only way to say it where she didn't get discouraged was something like, "I really love you and really want to connect with you, this is how I feel connected. Just like I want to show you how much I love you and am working really hard on making you feel special, making love to you is what makes me feel special and connected." Now your wife knows what you need and doesn't feel obligated to have sex. If she has sex with you, you just got validation that she is looking to meet your needs.
> 
> I have related sex with my wife to doing the dishes (her love language is acts of service, you can sub this out for any activity your wife enjoys but you're not good at). I will not, under any circumstances, fantasize about doing dishes. I will not go into the shower and think about how awesome clean dishes are. I will not go online and look at websites for dishwashers. When my wife nagged me about how the dishes were always dirty and how I should help her out more by doing the dishes, I completely loathed doing them. I hated dishes. I wanted to use paper plates and silverware so I'd never have to do them.
> 
> When I figured out that my wife gets actual, real, pleasure out of having clean dishes. When that lightbulb went off for me and I realized that the feeling I get after screwing my wife is a similar feeling to what she gets when she comes home and the dishes are done and I'm helping her with the kids, I COULD NOT STOP DOING DISHES IF I TRIED. I love doing the dishes now!! That sounds so gay but I don't care, there is a rare moment in my house where there is a stray dish in the sink. If a big dinner is made, you will find me HAPPILY doing the dishes with a big crap-eating grin on my face like I'm getting a BJ. It's not just about running the heavy cycle and hearing the water noises, it's because I know that my wife is taking immense pleasure from what I'm doing. It's like I'm giving my wife a mind orgasm.
> 
> My wife (and probably yours) is the same way about sex. My wife doesn't fantasize about sex (or didn't at least). She won't go online and look at people screwing, she's not touching herself in the shower thinking of some big dildo inside of her. When I told my wife I wanted to have sex, she took as resentment and loathed it. She did stuff purposely to avoid sex, like not letting me touch or kiss her or hug her.
> 
> When my wife realized that I cared about her and wanted to please her, and she realized how sex made me feel, the lightbulb went off. She is like a sex-crazed monster now. She sends me dirty pictures and texts, she lets me do forbidden dangerous things to her in public places. She's jumping me around the house. It's not because she turned into a ****, it's because she figured out that it's how she meets my needs. We are both on the same page now, we both are 100% committed to meeting eachother's needs and that means that I WANT to help her around the house and with the kids, and she WANTS to have crazy end of world sex with me.
> 
> We got to that point though because we had a marriage-ending event to take us there. It was either we turned around and focused 100% or we were going to get divorced. You don't have that event, so it's going to take time and dedication for her to believe it. Stick with it, your time will come.


Same here we had a marriage ending event...just a different approach. We are doing the same things. Just wording it differently. BTW I do all the dishes too. In my case sex is not an ultimatum at all her choice.


----------



## BALANCE

Well things went pretty good last night. :smthumbup:

We spent a couple hours sharing each others needs and talking about how to better meet those needs for each other. There are obviously still walls to break down but it felt like a good open conversation. 

Now the trick will be to be on the ball about meeting her needs. Even if I have to let some other things I'm doing around the house slip, I really need to meet these specific needs.

Sex was obviously one of my big needs. I tried not to make a huge deal about it but I did want to make it clear that it was something I needed and expected out of this relationship. I know it's not the most romantic thing but we decided to schedule sex for the next month. We compromised on the amount and settled on 4 times a month. This is a huge increase from the once every six weeks we have been doing. 

I knew things must be going pretty well when we were scheduling the sex days on the calendar and she glanced up at the clock. She had a look on her face that seemed a little mischievous, so I said, "are you thinking of squeezing one in tonight?" She looks back down at the calendar and goes, "yeah I was thinking about it." So we ended up having sex. 

It was a little awkward but still nice not to have to beg for it. I don't think scheduled sex is a great long term solution but hopefully it gets us feeling more connected. And honestly having a little heart drawn in on our family calendar for the days we will have sex is kind of hot. It's like our little secret and it's something to anticipate together. We threw in another rule (my idea) for spontaneous sex. It could still happen but if someone initiated and you didn't want to do it you could say, "sorry honey not right now but I'm looking forward to our sex night." 

Anyhoo, it felt like progress. Obviously laying out the plan is a lot different than living it so we'll see how things go.


----------



## 2sick

BALANCE said:


> Well things went pretty good last night. :smthumbup:
> 
> We spent a couple hours sharing each others needs and talking about how to better meet those needs for each other. There are obviously still walls to break down but it felt like a good open conversation.
> 
> Now the trick will be to be on the ball about meeting her needs. Even if I have to let some other things I'm doing around the house slip, I really need to meet these specific needs.
> 
> Sex was obviously one of my big needs. I tried not to make a huge deal about it but I did want to make it clear that it was something I needed and expected out of this relationship. I know it's not the most romantic thing but we decided to schedule sex for the next month. We compromised on the amount and settled on 4 times a month. This is a huge increase from the once every six weeks we have been doing.
> 
> I knew things must be going pretty well when we were scheduling the sex days on the calendar and she glanced up at the clock. She had a look on her face that seemed a little mischievous, so I said, "are you thinking of squeezing one in tonight?" She looks back down at the calendar and goes, "yeah I was thinking about it." So we ended up having sex.
> 
> It was a little awkward but still nice not to have to beg for it. I don't think scheduled sex is a great long term solution but hopefully it gets us feeling more connected. And honestly having a little heart drawn in on our family calendar for the days we will have sex is kind of hot. It's like our little secret and it's something to anticipate together. We threw in another rule (my idea) for spontaneous sex. It could still happen but if someone initiated and you didn't want to do it you could say, "sorry honey not right now but I'm looking forward to our sex night."
> 
> Anyhoo, it felt like progress. Obviously laying out the plan is a lot different than living it so we'll see how things go.


smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup
I am soooo happy for you!! That is such a HUGE step in the right direction!!!! BTW the scheduled sex is something that MC usually suggest so scheduled or not it is a connection!!! 

KEEP ON CONNECTING!!!! (emotionally too!!)


----------



## BALANCE

2sick said:


> smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup
> I am soooo happy for you!! That is such a HUGE step in the right direction!!!! BTW the scheduled sex is something that MC usually suggest so scheduled or not it is a connection!!!
> 
> KEEP ON CONNECTING!!!! (emotionally too!!)


Honestly I think sharing her needs openly was so new to her that she probably only scratched the surface. None of the things she mentioned were deep emotional needs that weren't being met. Most of them that she shared she would say, "actually you're doing pretty good on this." or "This actually hasn't been an issue for awhile." The deep stuff is in there somewhere. I just have to show her she can trust me with them.


----------



## 2sick

BALANCE said:


> Honestly I think sharing her needs openly was so new to her that she probably only scratched the surface. None of the things she mentioned were deep emotional needs that weren't being met. Most of them that she shared she would say, "actually you're doing pretty good on this." or "This actually hasn't been an issue for awhile." The deep stuff is in there somewhere. I just have to show her she can trust me with them.


Exactly! And even more important, she now knows you are listening!! Believe it or not that alone can make a world of difference...knowing that your feelings are being heard!
Again I'm so happy for your progress!


----------



## COguy

Dude that is so awesome!! Call me gay but I'm smiling over here for you. It means you're on the road to a happy marriage where both people are working to the same goal!

Don't get discouraged if you take a few steps back or if progress seems slow. You're on the path and headed in the right direction. Stick in there and be patient. And know that your wife sees the progress you're making and just wants you to keep at it. Be open to hearing the "dirt" and working on it without taking it personally. Likewise, let your wife know that you acknowledge the changes she's making and how awesome it is (I know that one is huge with my wife, she needs constant acknowledgement that she's making progress to meeting my needs).

Way to stick in there and be one of the elite. I'm going to start a club called The Woman Pleasers, you can be an honorary member.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

BALANCE said:


> Well things went pretty good last night. :smthumbup:
> 
> We spent a couple hours sharing each others needs and talking about how to better meet those needs for each other. There are obviously still walls to break down but it felt like a good open conversation.
> 
> Now the trick will be to be on the ball about meeting her needs. Even if I have to let some other things I'm doing around the house slip, I really need to meet these specific needs.
> 
> Sex was obviously one of my big needs. I tried not to make a huge deal about it but I did want to make it clear that it was something I needed and expected out of this relationship. I know it's not the most romantic thing but we decided to schedule sex for the next month. We compromised on the amount and settled on 4 times a month. This is a huge increase from the once every six weeks we have been doing.
> 
> I knew things must be going pretty well when we were scheduling the sex days on the calendar and she glanced up at the clock. She had a look on her face that seemed a little mischievous, so I said, "are you thinking of squeezing one in tonight?" *She looks back down at the calendar and goes, "yeah I was thinking about it." So we ended up having sex. *
> 
> It was a little awkward but still nice not to have to beg for it. I don't think scheduled sex is a great long term solution but hopefully it gets us feeling more connected. And honestly having a little heart drawn in on our family calendar for the days we will have sex is kind of hot. It's like our little secret and it's something to anticipate together. We threw in another rule (my idea) for spontaneous sex. It could still happen but if someone initiated and you didn't want to do it you could say, "sorry honey not right now but I'm looking forward to our sex night."
> 
> Anyhoo, it felt like progress. Obviously laying out the plan is a lot different than living it so we'll see how things go.


I echo the others in saying congratulations. This is progress for both of you. :smthumbup: I know that you have been working hard to improve things. The above in bold is real evidence that she is also working toward that goal and toward meeting your needs. Great to see!


----------



## BALANCE

COguy said:


> Dude that is so awesome!! Call me gay but I'm smiling over here for you. It means you're on the road to a happy marriage where both people are working to the same goal!
> 
> Don't get discouraged if you take a few steps back or if progress seems slow. You're on the path and headed in the right direction. Stick in there and be patient. And know that your wife sees the progress you're making and just wants you to keep at it. Be open to hearing the "dirt" and working on it without taking it personally. *Likewise, let your wife know that you acknowledge the changes she's making and how awesome it is (I know that one is huge with my wife, she needs constant acknowledgement that she's making progress to meeting my needs).*
> 
> Way to stick in there and be one of the elite. I'm going to start a club called The Woman Pleasers, you can be an honorary member.


Thanks for all the advice and encouragement. Also, thanks for the advice about encouraging my wife. I often forget to praise others for their efforts. I know listening to some of my needs wasn't the easiest thing to do and having sex was probably not something she _really_ wanted to do, but she did it anyway to meet my need. I need to make sure she knows I appreciate what she did and the efforts she is making.

Tuesdays we are going to go through a marriage book together and continue to share our needs with each other. Let the healing begin!

P.S. Whether I'm the "Elite" or not might still be up for debate, but I would be honored to be in your club.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Awesome Balance very happy for you! Huge step forward.:smthumbup:

Hopefully this is wife turn around week... I want to be next dammit.


----------



## COguy

You are in the Elite if you love and cherish your wife. If you are justified in throwing in the towel but you show patience and are man enough to admit your faults and work on them. Many men in your shoes would have thrown in the towel. It takes a real man to look in the mirror, see where he has stumbled, and strive to work on it. Note that this is different than being a doormat, which you could have been if you did not have the courage to tell your wife your needs.

There's lots of "good" men out there, the elite know how to sacrifice for their wives without sacrificing their self-respect. Something to ponder while you pound the snot out of her


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## romantic_guy

saying, "Love you" is extremely important, but maybe it is better not to push that right now. I have also read "MMSL" and am putting things into practice myself. I would also suggest that you get a copy of "the Couple Checkup" take the online test and read the book. It may help.


----------



## Enchantment

BALANCE said:


> Thanks for all the advice and encouragement. Also, thanks for the advice about encouraging my wife. I often forget to praise others for their efforts. I know listening to some of my needs wasn't the easiest thing to do and having sex was probably not something she _really_ wanted to do, but she did it anyway to meet my need. I need to make sure she knows I appreciate what she did and the efforts she is making.
> 
> Tuesdays we are going to go through a marriage book together and continue to share our needs with each other. Let the healing begin!
> 
> P.S. Whether I'm the "Elite" or not might still be up for debate, but I would be honored to be in your club.


If articulating each of your needs are difficult, there are resources available to help you with that. For instance, go look at the following link. On the right hand side there are links to questionnaires, one entitled "Love Busters" that each of you fill out identifying things your spouse does that kill your desire and another for "Emotional Needs" that help identify what it is you both need. If you can fill each of those out independently and then regroup and discuss them, it might help jumpstart some of those conversations.

Marriage Builders ® - Successful Marriage Advice

Happy to hear that there's been some progress made! That is awesome news. :smthumbup:


----------



## BALANCE

Trying2figureitout said:


> Awesome Balance very happy for you! Huge step forward.:smthumbup:
> 
> Hopefully this is wife turn around week... I want to be next dammit.


Hang in there. I was pretty low on Saturday so things can turn around pretty quick.


----------



## BALANCE

Enchantment said:


> If articulating each of your needs are difficult, there are resources available to help you with that. For instance, go look at the following link. On the right hand side there are links to questionnaires, one entitled "Love Busters" that each of you fill out identifying things your spouse does that kill your desire and another for "Emotional Needs" that help identify what it is you both need. If you can fill each of those out independently and then regroup and discuss them, it might help jumpstart some of those conversations.
> 
> Marriage Builders ® - Successful Marriage Advice
> 
> Happy to hear that there's been some progress made! That is awesome news. :smthumbup:


Thanks, Enchantment, already have them printed out and ready. I'm going to give us a few weeks, maybe even a month or two, to get our feet on the ground then I'll use these as a gauge of progress. I just don't want things to slip back into apathy.


----------



## BALANCE

romantic_guy said:


> saying, "Love you" is extremely important, but maybe it is better not to push that right now. I have also read "MMSL" and am putting things into practice myself. I would also suggest that you get a copy of "the Couple Checkup" take the online test and read the book. It may help.


I'll have to look into that one. We're going to go through "A Safe Haven Marriage." Don't know much about it but it was recommended to me by our pastor.


----------



## BALANCE

I know our issues aren't all about sex, but that element of feeling unwanted and rejected is the most hurtful part of our relationship for me. 

So humor me 

Since we have scheduled sex for this month what should I do on those days. Should I point it out and remind her? Be extra lovey and flirty all day? Just go to bed early and wait for her and if she doesn't show up just let her know the next day? The point of scheduling was so that I didn't have to beg and she could be better emotionally prepared, But what if when we get to the day she doesn't show any signs of wanting to follow through with it?

Last night was a little confusing because it was a scheduled day. But when I playfully pointed it out she crossed out the heart and put a heart on last Tuesday (Thats when we had sex after the discussion) I can see how that was a little confusing but I left that "event" very confident that Tuesday was just an "extra."

So I didn't push the issue. But I guess I felt a little hurt. Do you think it was a fitness test? I'm suddenly looking at these little hearts on the calendars not as fun, sexy secrets but as Rejection Days.

***Wind out of sail***


----------



## 2sick

BALANCE said:


> I know our issues aren't all about sex, but that element of feeling unwanted and rejected is the most hurtful part of our relationship for me.
> 
> So humor me
> 
> Since we have scheduled sex for this month what should I do on those days. Should I point it out and remind her? Be extra lovey and flirty all day? Just go to bed early and wait for her and if she doesn't show up just let her know the next day? The point of scheduling was so that I didn't have to beg and she could be better emotionally prepared, But what if when we get to the day she doesn't show any signs of wanting to follow through with it?
> 
> Last night was a little confusing because it was a scheduled day. But when I playfully pointed it out she crossed out the heart and put a heart on last Tuesday (Thats when we had sex after the discussion) I can see how that was a little confusing but I left that "event" very confident that Tuesday was just an "extra."
> 
> So I didn't push the issue. But I guess I felt a little hurt. Do you think it was a fitness test? I'm suddenly looking at these little hearts on the calendars not as fun, sexy secrets but as Rejection Days.
> 
> ***Wind out of sail***


Hang in there and Don't give up!!!! Yeah, most women don't wanted to be reminded to have sex...It makes it sound like a chore. Remember how you both felt on that Tuesday and try and bring back out the romance!! Turn those hearts back into sexy fun secret days!!!


----------



## Tall Average Guy

BALANCE said:


> I know our issues aren't all about sex, but that element of feeling unwanted and rejected is the most hurtful part of our relationship for me.
> 
> So humor me
> 
> Since we have scheduled sex for this month what should I do on those days. Should I point it out and remind her? Be extra lovey and flirty all day? Just go to bed early and wait for her and if she doesn't show up just let her know the next day? The point of scheduling was so that I didn't have to beg and she could be better emotionally prepared, But what if when we get to the day she doesn't show any signs of wanting to follow through with it?
> 
> Last night was a little confusing because it was a scheduled day. But when I playfully pointed it out she crossed out the heart and put a heart on last Tuesday (Thats when we had sex after the discussion) I can see how that was a little confusing but I left that "event" very confident that Tuesday was just an "extra."
> 
> So I didn't push the issue. But I guess I felt a little hurt. Do you think it was a fitness test? I'm suddenly looking at these little hearts on the calendars not as fun, sexy secrets but as Rejection Days.
> 
> ***Wind out of sail***


Ouch. A step back for sure. In a cool and calm tone, ask her why she is changing what you as a couple agreed upon, then let her talk. When she is done, I would say "I am disappointed that you changed our agreement without even talking to me about it. I will need to think about this." Then walk away and think about it. This will give you time to process what she said and decide how to react. It will also give her time to process the your statement.

Edit - once you resolve this, I would suggest that you work on the foreplay a day or two before the date. Light touching, flirting, a quick hard kiss then walking away. Start the process before hand - don't wait until 11 pm when you are heading to bed.


----------



## BALANCE

2sick said:


> Hang in there and Don't give up!!!! Yeah, most women don't wanted to be reminded to have sex...It makes it sound like a chore. Remember how you both felt on that Tuesday and try and bring back out the romance!! Turn those hearts back into sexy fun secret days!!!


Only trouble is that I'm not sure she saw Tuesday as a "good" night. I thought maybe she was being a little playful but she might have really just wanted to get the sex out of the way for the rest of the week.

She may not see them as fun, sexy, secret days just annoying days. Days where if she doesn't say anything she might be able to get by without having to do anything. She can always claim she forgot (she has a pretty bad memory) and, "oh well" guess we'll have to wait until next week.

Point is, we should both be trying to reconnect. We should both be looking at those hearts as opportunities to be together, to share each other, to meet each other's needs. 

Maybe I'm asking too much, too soon.


----------



## BALANCE

Tall Average Guy said:


> Ouch. A step back for sure. In a cool and calm tone, ask her why she is changing what you as a couple agreed upon, then let her talk. When she is done, I would say "I am disappointed that you changed our agreement without even talking to me about it. I will need to think about this." Then walk away and think about it. This will give you time to process what she said and decide how to react. It will also give her time to process the your statement.


Do you think it was unreasonable? After all we did have sex this week. The schedule is loosely based on the idea of sex once a week. 

But we did put the heart on Thursday after hinting that we would have sex Tuesday, so surly there was some understanding that it would still happen. She said she didn't realized that that was how it was going to be.

In hindsight, I wish I hadn't said anything. I should have just taken her. That was the point. No suggesting or hinting just doing it. If I come back now and talk to her about it, it seems like it will come across as needy and pathetic.

She came to bed with her bathrobe on (not a sexy robe, I mean an old, thick bathrobe) so it's not like she was sending signals that she really wanted me to be aggressive.


----------



## BALANCE

So here is where the "Nice Guy" thinking starts to hit me. 

I feel hurt and disappointed that we just crossed off one of our sex nights.

But tonight is date night, so maybe if we have some wine, maybe do some figure drawing, listen to the music she likes etc. She'll want to have sex tonight.

I like doing those things too and setting the mood can't hurt but in the end I think it would be better to talk to her instead of just hoping if I do the right things tonight she will automatically want to meet my needs.

Geez, I'm such a freaking screw-up!


----------



## Tall Average Guy

BALANCE said:


> Do you think it was unreasonable? After all we did have sex this week. The schedule is loosely based on the idea of sex once a week.
> 
> But we did put the heart on Thursday after hinting that we would have sex Tuesday, so surly there was some understanding that it would still happen. She said she didn't realized that that was how it was going to be.


I tend not to believe her. If she felt that, why did she put that heart up in the first place, or why not cross it out right away. I suspect she did not want to have sex and is rationalizing her way there. I think you are reasonable to call her on implying one thing then changing in mid-stream. 



> In hindsight, I wish I hadn't said anything. I should have just taken her. That was the point. No suggesting or hinting just doing it. If I come back now and talk to her about it, it seems like it will come across as needy and pathetic.


This probably would have been the best tactic. But you didn't, so work from where you are. I suggested raising it as I did because it was short, clearly indicated where you were coming from, and let her do the talking. You ask her a question, state your concern, then walk away. No begging pleading etc. In a normal relationship, you disengage a bit, but I am not sure that is best for you. You probably need to make that determination.



> She came to bed with her bathrobe on (not a sexy robe, I mean an old, thick bathrobe) so it's not like she was sending signals that she really wanted me to be aggressive.


Perhaps. Or maybe she was testing to make you pursue her. As I noted, you need to pursue her before you get to the bedroom.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

BALANCE said:


> So here is where the "Nice Guy" thinking starts to hit me.
> 
> I feel hurt and disappointed that we just crossed off one of our sex nights.
> 
> But tonight is date night, so maybe if we have some wine, maybe do some figure drawing, listen to the music she likes etc. She'll want to have sex tonight.
> 
> I like doing those things too and setting the mood can't hurt but in the end I think it would be better to talk to her instead of just hoping if I do the right things tonight she will automatically want to meet my needs.
> 
> Geez, I'm such a freaking screw-up!


You are doing fine until the last thought. Go into date night assuming that you will not have sex. Then go and have fun. Practice flirting with her, touching her, trying to turn her on. Check out the indicators of interest and figure out what works on her and what does not. Pay attention to her, but assume that nothing will happen. You will be much more confident when you are not concerned over how things are progressing.


----------



## romantic_guy

I have attached an article for you entitled "when a Woman Isn't In the Mood". Let you wife read this. I think it does a good job laying out the reason sex is a need for men.


----------



## BALANCE

romantic_guy said:


> I have attached an article for you entitled "when a Woman Isn't In the Mood". Let you wife read this. I think it does a good job laying out the reason sex is a need for men.


Thank you. It is a very easy, straightforward read. Unfortunately I doubt my wife would take it to heart. It's, basically, just another guy saying how important sex is. She's heard that song before.

But, I'll let her read and see what she thinks about it. Are there any women on here that have read this article? Did it mean anything to you or change your perspective any?


----------



## seeking sanity

BALANCE - Is giving up on the table for you yet?

From what I see, you are in this death cycle where you try to make change happen, get agreements from her she has on intention of keeping, and get a sh*t load of hope invested in getting laid, when you and I both know the chance of sex, especial sex that she's excited and fully present for, even when scheduled, is very low. 

Why keep pushing it? She's doesn't want to be sexual with you. Personally, I'd just stop trying and prepare to move on. The path you are on does not work. Sorry.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

seeking sanity said:


> BALANCE - Is giving up on the table for you yet?
> 
> From what I see, you are in this death cycle where you try to make change happen, get agreements from her she has on intention of keeping, and get a sh*t load of hope invested in getting laid, when you and I both know the chance of sex, especial sex that she's excited and fully present for, even when scheduled, is very low.
> 
> Why keep pushing it? She's doesn't want to be sexual with you. Personally, I'd just stop trying and prepare to move on. The path you are on does not work. Sorry.


I tend to agree about the schedule stuff. I took the approach of putting the whole thing in my wife's lap. I told her I am not acceptable to a sexless marriage and when she is ready I'd love to have sex with her. I told her I would "try" once per week so that all other times she can relax and just enjoy my non-sexual touch. My wife is responding really well to this arrangement it in essence puts her in charge of changing her mind and falling back in love with me.. I told her if she cannot create a normal healthy sexual marriage with me she needs to divorce me or I will eventually totally disconnect from her and we will both waste many of our best years in the process... I told her to set a date in her mind to work it out. Its all on her..she disconnected not me.

So far she has been buying new artwork for our house and re-decorating I think I know what decision she made . Soon her and I will have sex when she is ready. She is willingly accepting any and all non-sexual touch. She is laughing and giggling. Your wife is probably building new resentment in your schedule arrangement you might want to re-think it.


----------



## COguy

BALANCE said:


> Thank you. It is a very easy, straightforward read. Unfortunately I doubt my wife would take it to heart. It's, basically, just another guy saying how important sex is. She's heard that song before.
> 
> But, I'll let her read and see what she thinks about it. Are there any women on here that have read this article? Did it mean anything to you or change your perspective any?


I'd be surprised if a jaded woman read it and changed her mind, even if most men would agree with it. I can't see how that wouldn't make sex feel like an obligation, like you would feel if your wife nagged you to do some asinine chore she deemed important. Maybe you'll get sex that way but it probably won't be intimate.

I want my wife to WANT to have sex with me, it's not enjoyable for me otherwise. I want my wife to do it because she's interested in meeting my needs and is looking for a show of intimacy.


----------



## BALANCE

COguy said:


> I want my wife to WANT to have sex with me, it's not enjoyable for me otherwise. I want my wife to do it because she's interested in meeting my needs and is looking for a show of intimacy.


Yeah, I doubt handing her an article about why sex is important to men will have any real affect on her. I don't think that scheduled sex is the best long term solution either but it's a tool to help us reconnect regularly. 

I can't force her to want me, I can't force her to love me. Once that's gone is it gone for good?


----------



## romantic_guy

COguy said:


> I want my wife to WANT to have sex with me, it's not enjoyable for me otherwise. I want my wife to do it because she's interested in meeting my needs and is looking for a show of intimacy.


Sure I want my wife to want me, and she does, but there are times that she is not thinking about wanting me sexually until I start. She may not even feel like having an orgasm, but nine times out of ten, she ends up into it and having one. I have no doubt that she starts out of "duty" and ends out of "horny". After reading MMSL I have decided not to wait on her being in the mood. I am going to initiate. If she wants an orgasm, great. If she wants to let me go ahead, I'll take it.


----------



## COguy

BALANCE said:


> Yeah, I doubt handing her an article about why sex is important to men will have any real affect on her. I don't think that scheduled sex is the best long term solution either but it's a tool to help us reconnect regularly.
> 
> I can't force her to want me, I can't force her to love me. Once that's gone is it gone for good?


I am proof that the answer to that is a "Hell NO!"

Not sure if I said it in this thread but my wife during her affair mentioned to her EA partner and some friends that she was not physically attracted to me at all. The day after d-day she was telling me how sexy and irresistible I was and how dumb she had been for not realizing it.

Attraction for a female is a very emotional thing. If she's hating you, she's not attracted to you. If you're in her good graces, she'll want to jump you no matter how you look. I certainly didn't lose any weight or dress differently in the 48 hours she went from one extreme to the other.

You need to win her back, and I think you're on the right track. I'm going to assume that your little sex episode from earlier was legit from her end and she wanted you for that time. Proof that what you're doing is working and you just need some time to rekindle the passion.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

COguy said:


> I am proof that the answer to that is a "Hell NO!"
> 
> Not sure if I said it in this thread but my wife during her affair mentioned to her EA partner and some friends that she was not physically attracted to me at all. The day after d-day she was telling me how sexy and irresistible I was and how dumb she had been for not realizing it.
> 
> Attraction for a female is a very emotional thing. If she's hating you, she's not attracted to you. If you're in her good graces, she'll want to jump you no matter how you look. I certainly didn't lose any weight or dress differently in the 48 hours she went from one extreme to the other.
> 
> You need to win her back, and I think you're on the right track. I'm going to assume that your little sex episode from earlier was legit from her end and she wanted you for that time. Proof that what you're doing is working and you just need some time to rekindle the passion.


:iagree:


It's ALL emotions with our wives... if they aren't seeing you as a positive the last thing they want is to have sex with you. I am thinking of my sexless period as one big freaking huge foreplay until she eventually wants to jump my bones again... everyday is a step closer. Every encounter a step closer. She is getting there because I'm courting her again.


----------



## BALANCE

So we had our weakly talk last night. Maybe not as nice of a talk as the last two weeks but important things were shared.

First the good news.

She said that she would like to move past the bitterness and resentment and I don't think she was just saying that. I think she really might be letting that stuff go, at least to some extent.

She scheduled an appointment with the counselor for Thursday night.

She did some personal reading online about dealing with hurt and heartbrokenness (She has rarely shown this type of initiative.)

She is wearing her wedding ring again.

Now the "bad" news.

There does seem to be one major issue that she can't seem to deal with. And it does fit the timeline of when things started to go downhill for us.

When to have kids.

When we had our second child I talked about being done. She wanted more (This would have been around the time we started MC for the first time). The circumstances surrounding the birth of our second child were a little traumatic (as in, I "delivered" her in the backseat of our car) so it took me some time, but eventually I felt ready to have another baby. 

Then once we had our third child I also talked about being done. (This would have been two years ago). Our relationship was still a little rocky and we didn't have the insurance for it so it seemed unwise. She said she just can't deal with me always talking about not wanting more kids only to change my mind later. It has, apparently, broken her heart.

Not really sure how to proceed with this. I don't really feel like I did anything ethically wrong. I can't change the things I said. We ended up with three beautiful children. But she is devastated. Where do I go from here?


----------



## Tall Average Guy

BALANCE said:


> So we had our weakly talk last night. Maybe not as nice of a talk as the last two weeks but important things were shared.
> 
> First the good news.
> 
> She said that she would like to move past the bitterness and resentment and I don't think she was just saying that. I think she really might be letting that stuff go, at least to some extent.
> 
> She scheduled an appointment with the counselor for Thursday night.
> 
> She did some personal reading online about dealing with hurt and heartbrokenness (She has rarely shown this type of initiative.)
> 
> She is wearing her wedding ring again.
> 
> Now the "bad" news.
> 
> There does seem to be one major issue that she can't seem to deal with. And it does fit the timeline of when things started to go downhill for us.
> 
> When to have kids.
> 
> When we had our second child I talked about being done. She wanted more (This would have been around the time we started MC for the first time). The circumstances surrounding the birth of our second child were a little traumatic (as in, I "delivered" her in the backseat of our car) so it took me some time, but eventually I felt ready to have another baby.
> 
> Then once we had our third child I also talked about being done. (This would have been two years ago). Our relationship was still a little rocky and we didn't have the insurance for it so it seemed unwise. She said she just can't deal with me always talking about not wanting more kids only to change my mind later. It has, apparently, broken her heart.
> 
> Not really sure how to proceed with this. I don't really feel like I did anything ethically wrong. I can't change the things I said. We ended up with three beautiful children. But she is devastated. Where do I go from here?


Can you explain a bit more why she is devastated over your talking about being done with children? Does she want more? Think that means you don't love your third child? Think you are toying with her?

The rest of your discussion seems promising.


----------



## 2sick

BALANCE said:


> Only trouble is that I'm not sure she saw Tuesday as a "good" night. I thought maybe she was being a little playful but she might have really just wanted to get the sex out of the way for the rest of the week.
> 
> She may not see them as fun, sexy, secret days just annoying days. Days where if she doesn't say anything she might be able to get by without having to do anything. She can always claim she forgot (she has a pretty bad memory) and, "oh well" guess we'll have to wait until next week.
> 
> Point is, we should both be trying to reconnect. We should both be looking at those hearts as opportunities to be together, to share each other, to meet each other's needs.
> 
> Maybe I'm asking too much, too soon.


HMM Balance, your comment sort of puzzles me?!?!? Don't you know your wife? Why would you say may be was just getting the sex out of the way for the week? From what you said, it seemed like she actually connected with you and wanted to have sex. 

Anyway, you are correct that is both of your jobs to reconnect, but remember sex is on your list not hers. Are you trying to keep communicating with her...NOT just asking for sex.... Speaking as one of the women who needs to have her engine started before you can drive across country, take it slow, and talk playfully/caringly throughout the day (remembering her list).

Bottom line.. go slow...and don't expect anything at first....PATIENCE!!!!! good luck and hang in there!!!


----------



## 2sick

Oops guess I should finish reading before writing!

I'm glad that date night went well...not as well as you probably hoped... but any communication is still good!!! 

Not sure I get why w was devastated by you compromising to have the kids? Am I missing something? Please explain further if possible.


----------



## BALANCE

I don't know why she is devastated.:scratchhead:

When she would ask about having more kids I would generally say things like, "I don't know" "I'm content with the amount of kids we have" "I don't want to have another one right now, but maybe down the road."

Eventually I would get to the point where I would say OK lets have another one. However, two years ago I was a little more adamant about it because of the insurance issue. I probably came down a little to hard on the issue and she's been hurting ever since.

I honestly do not know why it is such a big deal for her. Maybe a lot of her identity is tied into being a mother and she felt I was threatening that. I tried to get her to explain to me why this seemed like such a huge issue but she just says it's how she feels and she can't explain it.


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## BALANCE

2sick said:


> HMM Balance, your comment sort of puzzles me?!?!? Don't you know your wife? Why would you say may be was just getting the sex out of the way for the week? From what you said, it seemed like she actually connected with you and wanted to have sex.


I'd like to think I know my wife, but she has stated before that she often "goes along" with stuff that she really doesn't want to do. So now i'm never 100% sure what she is really thinking.


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## COguy

Tall Average Guy said:


> Can you explain a bit more why she is devastated over your talking about being done with children? Does she want more? Think that means you don't love your third child? Think you are toying with her?
> 
> The rest of your discussion seems promising.


You need to find out WHY it bothers her. What is the underlying reason she is upset? Communicate your thoughts and feelings with as much empathy as you can muster.

I would certainly not suggest having more kids if your relationship is not rock solid. Maybe mention this to her as an incentive to take everything into overdrive. "I am OK with another child but only if our relationship is rock solid. Here's what we need to do to get there."

But honestly, if you don't WANT another child, then you need to be honest about it and not lead her on. It sounds like maybe you were wishy washy about it earlier and she doesn't know where you stand, so she got her hopes up and then was disappointed.


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## BALANCE

I did talk about getting a vasectomy two years ago because we weren't using any BC. We got into a pretty big fight. She said she didn't want me to do it and no doctor would do it without her consent. I got angry and said I was sure I could find one that would.

It was stupid and I really didn't mean it to get all crazy. I was just trying to have an open, honest conversation about how many children we were going to have. 

I apologized the next day and told her I wasn't going to run off and get a vasectomy (I never did). I told her that I had wanted to share my concerns with her but that she had shut down/devalued everything that I was trying to share. The result was I got defensive and angry. 

Anyway, she doesn't know how to move forward with our relationship if I'm going to continue changing my mind about having kids.


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## 2sick

BALANCE said:


> I'd like to think I know my wife, but she has stated before that she often "goes along" with stuff that she really doesn't want to do. So now i'm never 100% sure what she is really thinking.


YUP, I hear ya!!! No offense but definitely YUP.... I don't even think she's 100% sure of what she really is thinking!!! I guess just wait and see what happens after Thursday counseling session? IDK, puzzling...but again best thing to do is just keeeeeeeeep talking!!! But you know it doesn't matter if everyone on TAM is confused about your relationship as long as you and your SO get it...that's all that matters(keep us updated though)!!! 

Good luck!!!


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## BALANCE

COguy said:


> You need to find out WHY it bothers her. What is the underlying reason she is upset? Communicate your thoughts and feelings with as much empathy as you can muster.
> 
> I would certainly not suggest having more kids if your relationship is not rock solid. Maybe mention this to her as an incentive to take everything into overdrive. "I am OK with another child but only if our relationship is rock solid. Here's what we need to do to get there."
> 
> But honestly, if you don't WANT another child, then you need to be honest about it and not lead her on. It sounds like maybe you were wishy washy about it earlier and she doesn't know where you stand, so she got her hopes up and then was disappointed.


I didn't mean to be "wishy-washy" to me it was always a difficult question to answer. I would answer honestly and say, "no I don't feel like having anymore." How could I know that my feelings would change in two to three years?

I have mentioned the relationship status as a reason for not having more kids. I told her we need to focus on getting us back to a good place before we have all the stress and distraction of a new baby. But, like I said all the reasons I gave her were shut down. 

The ironic thing is that now she is so mad at me that she says she doesn't want to have another baby with me.


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## 2sick

BALANCE said:


> I did talk about getting a vasectomy two years ago because we weren't using any BC. We got into a pretty big fight. She said she didn't want me to do it and no doctor would do it without her consent. I got angry and said I was sure I could find one that would.
> 
> It was stupid and I really didn't mean it to get all crazy. I was just trying to have an open, honest conversation about how many children we were going to have.
> 
> I apologized the next day and told her I wasn't going to run off and get a vasectomy (I never did). I told her that I had wanted to share my concerns with her but that she had shut down/devalued everything that I was trying to share. The result was I got defensive and angry.
> 
> Anyway, she doesn't know how to move forward with our relationship if I'm going to continue changing my mind about having kids.


It sounds like she's more upset not about the actual having kids but about the arguing itself (if you can understand what I'm saying) ... Now you say you wanted to have an open and honest conversation...was it also considerate???... because open, honest and rude or sarcastic communication doesn't count.


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## AFEH

BALANCE said:


> *I don't know why she is devastated*.:scratchhead:
> 
> When she would ask about having more kids I would generally say things like, "I don't know" "I'm content with the amount of kids we have" "I don't want to have another one right now, but maybe down the road."
> 
> Eventually I would get to the point where I would say OK lets have another one. However, two years ago I was a little more adamant about it because of the insurance issue. I probably came down a little to hard on the issue and she's been hurting ever since.
> 
> I honestly do not know why it is such a big deal for her. Maybe a lot of her identity is tied into being a mother and she felt I was threatening that. I tried to get her to explain to me why this seemed like such a huge issue but she just says it's how she feels and she can't explain it.


Sounds to me like your wife really does have you on the hook. You are right in their with her and can’t see the wood for the trees. For example she may well be playing you or punishing you for an offence from times gone by.

You need to get your head out of the wood because you are paying way too much attention to detail and responding to it. Some wives really can play their husbands that way as it keeps them way off balance (no pun intended). You have to uncover her motivation for saying such things to you. She’s getting something out of it that she’s not declaring which means she’ll have a hidden agenda.

In way you have to take yourself out of the dynamics that go on between the two of you. You need to develop the capability of detaching and observing yourself and your wife at the same time as you are interacting with her.

And when you do that you will start to see things that were totally invisible to you before and change will begin to happen. To learn how to do these things read Awareness (Anthony de Mello) it is a fascinating lesson that he teaches and he teaches it well. It is a spiritual book (East and West) but not Religious.

You might like to take a look at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/35517-four-stages-competence.html wrt Awareness.


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## BALANCE

I do want everyone to understand that I LOVE my children. Each one of them is amazing and precious in their own way. I don't regret having my kids. I am happy and content with the family I have. I just want us to level out and be stable. We have had each of our children at a point when things in our lives were stable and my wife and I were connected. That is not how things feel now.


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## BALANCE

2sick said:


> It sounds like she's more upset not about the actual having kids but about the arguing itself (if you can understand what I'm saying) ... Now you say you wanted to have an open and honest conversation...was it also considerate???... because open, honest and rude or sarcastic communication doesn't count.


Does trying to be considerate count? 

This is how I remember the conversation (I'm 50% sure it's exactly how it happened). I started by very calmly telling her I was concerned because we were having sex without any BC. I did not feel like I was ready to have another baby. I then used feeling words to express why I did not want to have another baby, "I feel stressed about meeting every bodies needs." "I feel worried about the insurance." etc. I then shared some of my concerns from a more logistical angle. 

Her body language through all this was arms crossed with a frown on her face. Then for each "concern" I had she would tell me either that it didn't matter or that it was just me being stupid or being scared.

So then I got angry and I did get sarcastic and probably rude. And, like I said, threatening to go get the vasectomy. I just felt so unheard. It's such a huge decision and it seemed like I had no say in the matter at all. It was very frustrating. I would say I really did put some thought into it and I started out pretty good but lost it once she put up her wall.


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## COguy

BALANCE said:


> Does trying to be considerate count?
> 
> This is how I remember the conversation (I'm 50% sure it's exactly how it happened). I started by very calmly telling her I was concerned because we were having sex without any BC. I did not feel like I was ready to have another baby. I then used feeling words to express why I did not want to have another baby, "I feel stressed about meeting every bodies needs." "I feel worried about the insurance." etc. I then shared some of my concerns from a more logistical angle.
> 
> Her body language through all this was arms crossed with a frown on her face. Then for each "concern" I had she would tell me either that it didn't matter or that it was just me being stupid or being scared.
> 
> So then I got angry and I did get sarcastic and probably rude. And, like I said, threatening to go get the vasectomy. I just felt so unheard. It's such a huge decision and it seemed like I had no say in the matter at all. It was very frustrating. I would say I really did put some thought into it and I started out pretty good but lost it once she put up her wall.


I have the same problem communicating with my wife. We men are rational logical creatures. Our wives are not. She is responding negatively to your well though out rational arguments because she has a lot of resentment and anger towards you. As AFEH said, you both have to work very hard to break those negative patterns of thinking, it takes time.

My wife and I's relationship is really great now, but we still are working on breaking the negative cycle when we communicate. It's a daily struggle, but every day we both work on it it gets a little better.

What helped me is when my counselor heard us go through an argument, she said, "What you said was very well spoken and very well thought out, it would be hard to argue with it, but there is no empathy when you talk to your wife." Your wife probably doesn't care about your argument being rational, she wants to know that you care about her feelings and want to nurture and protect her. Try to make that, and unconditional love, the focus before you say anything.

If she gets upset, it's very easy to strike back or get riled up. Instead, observe and comment on her feelings (much like you would do to your children). I asked my wife a simple question last night about dirty clothes, with no malice behind it, she got really upset and started saying, "Why would you ask me that? It's so rude that you would accuse me of doing that." The old me would have flown off the handle, but I said, very calmly, "I understand that comment came off as accusatory and made you feel stupid, that wasn't my intention, I think you are great, I just wanted to see if there was a reason I shouldn't use the hamper." I could see the anger drifting away and it was one of those moments where you just acknowledge how much progress has been made in your relationship.

As the resentment fades, you get more and more slack (and she will get more from you as well). But it takes real hard work to break those negative patterns. I mean you've been arguing and fighting with your wife in a set way for many years, your arguing routine is probably involuntary now. You have to take active steps to be empathetic and understanding instead of trying to get your point across. As the man, your response can have a huge impact in your wife's attitude.


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## BALANCE

COguy said:


> As the resentment fades, you get more and more slack (and she will get more from you as well). But it takes real hard work to break those negative patterns. I mean you've been arguing and fighting with your wife in a set way for many years, your arguing routine is probably involuntary now. You have to take active steps to be empathetic and understanding instead of trying to get your point across. As the man, your response can have a huge impact in your wife's attitude.


Thank you, I think you are absolutely right. Our MC was trying to get us to give each other more slack and to empathize with each other more. 

During that conversation I did acknowledge that she would feel hurt and that I knew it would be hard to give up the idea of having more kids, but it was probably to rehearsed and ended up sounding insincere.


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## BALANCE

So does anyone have any pointers on arguing with empathy? How do you approach a huge disagreement with your spouse in a considerate way? It often feel like my W doesn't feel like I am being considerate unless I change my mind and go along with whatever it was she wanted. How can I get my voice heard while still making her feel cared for?


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## COguy

BALANCE said:


> So does anyone have any pointers on arguing with empathy? How do you approach a huge disagreement with your spouse in a considerate way? It often feel like my W doesn't feel like I am being considerate unless I change my mind and go along with whatever it was she wanted. How can I get my voice heard while still making her feel cared for?


When you're trying to get her to understand your point of view, you're doing it wrong. 

Address her *real* concerns with no intention of showing her your point of view or making mention of what you want. You'll know you're listening when you aren't thinking of something to say in return.

Note: Her real concerns are not about having a child.


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## Tall Average Guy

BALANCE said:


> I don't know why she is devastated.:scratchhead:
> 
> When she would ask about having more kids I would generally say things like, "I don't know" "I'm content with the amount of kids we have" "I don't want to have another one right now, but maybe down the road."
> 
> Eventually I would get to the point where I would say OK lets have another one. However, two years ago I was a little more adamant about it because of the insurance issue. I probably came down a little to hard on the issue and she's been hurting ever since.
> 
> I honestly do not know why it is such a big deal for her. Maybe a lot of her identity is tied into being a mother and she felt I was threatening that. I tried to get her to explain to me why this seemed like such a huge issue but she just says it's how she feels and she can't explain it.


This answer bothers me. It provides a reason for her to be resentful, with no specifics for you to address and know end in sight. Intentionally or not, this is not really fair to you.

One way to argue with empathy is to rephrase what you think she is feeling, based on her responses, and feed it back to her. Such as "I understand that by changing my mind, you felt I was toying with your emotions." You can then pause to let her correct you, then state it back. The goal is to confirm that you have some basic understanding of how she feels and are considering those feelings.

The drawback is this concept is so vague as to be unworkable in the wrong hands. She is resentful, so anytime you stand up for yourself, she (unconsiously) hides behind you not considering how she feels. No matter what you say, you can't prove you are taking he feelings into account, and can't ever truly summarize how she is feeling. 

It will take some time to lower both your walls and adjust your communication, but you need to aware of how she is responding and whether she is taking steps to move forward with you.


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## BALANCE

COguy said:


> When you're trying to get her to understand your point of view, you're doing it wrong. ;





Tall Average Guy said:


> One way to argue with empathy is to rephrase what you think she is feeling, based on her responses, and feed it back to her. Such as "I understand that by changing my mind, you felt I was toying with your emotions." You can then pause to let her correct you, then state it back. The goal is to confirm that you have some basic understanding of how she feels and are considering those feelings.


Thanks guys. All stuff I have heard or read before it's just hard to remember to practice it in the heat of the moment. I need to step it up a notch.


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## 2sick

BALANCE said:


> Does trying to be considerate count?
> 
> This is how I remember the conversation (I'm 50% sure it's exactly how it happened). I started by very calmly telling her I was concerned because we were having sex without any BC. I did not feel like I was ready to have another baby. I then used feeling words to express why I did not want to have another baby, "I feel stressed about meeting every bodies needs." "I feel worried about the insurance." etc. I then shared some of my concerns from a more logistical angle.
> 
> Her body language through all this was arms crossed with a frown on her face. Then for each "concern" I had she would tell me either that it didn't matter or that it was just me being stupid or being scared.
> 
> So then I got angry and I did get sarcastic and probably rude. And, like I said, threatening to go get the vasectomy. I just felt so unheard. It's such a huge decision and it seemed like I had no say in the matter at all. It was very frustrating. I would say I really did put some thought into it and I started out pretty good but lost it once she put up her wall.


LOL. TRYING ALWAYS COUNTS!!!!:smthumbup: That's all anyone can truly do...make an honest and conscious attempt to being considerate. No one is perfect...no one can expect anyone else to be perfect...that said...people do get frustrated because of the other's imperfections... that's were patience comes into play!

Sooo bottom line...Keeping trying!!!!


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## MEM2020

Balance,
My lovely strong willed wife is one of four girls.
She wanted at least four I wanted at most 2.
After the second I waited one year and then told her we could either agree to 3 and I would then get a vasectomy, or we could amicably divorce and I was perfectly accepting of her choice either way.

She chose 3. I have never once complained about our third. And she has never complained about our missing fourth.




So we had our weakly talk last night. Maybe not as nice of a talk as the last two weeks but important things were shared.

First the good news.

She said that she would like to move past the bitterness and resentment and I don't think she was just saying that. I think she really might be letting that stuff go, at least to some extent.

She scheduled an appointment with the counselor for Thursday night.

She did some personal reading online about dealing with hurt and heartbrokenness (She has rarely shown this type of initiative.)

She is wearing her wedding ring again.

Now the "bad" news.

There does seem to be one major issue that she can't seem to deal with. And it does fit the timeline of when things started to go downhill for us.

When to have kids.

When we had our second child I talked about being done. She wanted more (This would have been around the time we started MC for the first time). The circumstances surrounding the birth of our second child were a little traumatic (as in, I "delivered" her in the backseat of our car) so it took me some time, but eventually I felt ready to have another baby. 

Then once we had our third child I also talked about being done. (This would have been two years ago). Our relationship was still a little rocky and we didn't have the insurance for it so it seemed unwise. She said she just can't deal with me always talking about not wanting more kids only to change my mind later. It has, apparently, broken her heart.

Not really sure how to proceed with this. I don't really feel like I did anything ethically wrong. I can't change the things I said. We ended up with three beautiful children. But she is devastated. Where do I go from here?[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Halien

BALANCE said:


> So does anyone have any pointers on arguing with empathy? How do you approach a huge disagreement with your spouse in a considerate way? It often feel like my W doesn't feel like I am being considerate unless I change my mind and go along with whatever it was she wanted. How can I get my voice heard while still making her feel cared for?


Tall average guy answered this really well, in my opinion, but I'd like to add my own additional thoughts from conflict resolution training. Conveying empathy often isn't achieved if you just say that you do not understand her POV, so be careful that if you make this kind of statement, add to it that you really want to understand, because if it hurts her, its important to you to respect it as you do your own feelings. Really, the approach is to try to put yourself in her shoes, think about the situation, and try to verbalize how you now understand the issue, promising to make it something that you will respect from now on.

Avoid the lecturing tone some of us fall into where we say that we can't go back and change it, and must deal with it going forward. She knows that you aren't a time traveller. Just leave it at letting her know that you are sorry, and this is important to you now. In some situations, you can ask if certain follow up actions or discussions might be something that she'd be willing to participate in, because you want to understand it better.


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## I Know

BALANCE said:


> When we had our second child I talked about being done. She wanted more


I would never have a kid with a wife that wasn't f*cking me. No way no how. More kids will not make a tense situation any easier.


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## MEM2020

Actually I have been meaning to chime in on this thread ever since I saw the bit about balance getting hammered for trying to limit family visits two twice a year almost a decade ago. 

Due to some experience with the phrase "I am not sure I will EVER forgive you for xyz" these "resentment" themes are interesting to me. So lets zoom in on that particular "incident". You say twice a year and she says every month. So you agreed to every month - which is certainly a fine outcome. The core, core question at this point is what did you actually "do" from that point on?
Did you subtly make the visits difficult? Were you disengaged during the visits? Or did you instead fully support this "close family" model and really step up?

The reason I ask is simple. If you stepped up - then you should have considered doing what I did in similar situations. When my W said "I resent that you did X a long time ago" my response was to ask: "Then what"? Meaning "what happened subsequent to that event"?

And after a detailed - I made SURE it was detailed - and lengthy discussion of all the GOOD things I did after the initial event I quietly looked at her and asked. "do you realize that by holding that one incident against me, you are blatantly disregarding, disrespecting and devaluing all the loving and supportive steps and choices I have made since then"? 

And then I would be quiet and just listen. Sometimes I would have to addd something like "are you telling me that in any area, if one of us makes any mistakes, those errors may outweigh a near infinite amount d loving behavior afterwards? For example if I ask "am I a great son in law ti your parents". And the answer is yes. Then you should love and respect me for that quality, and not instead abuse me with resentment because I am not perfect. 

I can say with certainty that my W has said and done some very hurtful things to me during our marriage, but when I think of all the thousands of kind, supportive, loving acts that she phas shown me, the resentment for any bad memories, fades away. 

As for family size, I was empathetic even apologetic in my delivery, when I told her three was the max. I have a decent post that provides mor context somewhere. But as the sole breadwinner and financial planner for our family I nicely told her that the stress of a fourth child would put me into a perpetually tense emotional state and that I was not willing to live like that. 






QUOTE=I Know;519249]I would never have a kid with a wife that wasn't f*cking me. No way no how. More kids will not make a tense situation any easier.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH

MEM you might want to go through a cleansing process with your wife just in case she’s got anything else inside of her she hasn’t forgiven you for.


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## MEM2020

I will ask her


E=AFEH;519424]MEM you might want to go through a cleansing process with your wife just in case she’s got anything else inside of her she hasn’t forgiven you for.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DTO

uphillbattle said:


> Wow, so she expects the world from you for her needs but your needs are just desires? You should "desire" to tell her that it is only neotiable to a point. Don't give in anymore than you feel that you can be happy with. If she sees sex as a desire then treat her need for tenderness as the same. Don't be a push over.


Agree. If I were you I would tell her that sex is part of the commitment, not something optional. It is just part of respecting your feelings as she expects you to respect hers going forward.


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## DTO

COguy said:


> Note: Her real concerns are not about having a child.


Actually, they probably are if she said it. LOTS of women think that sex is only worthwhile when there is a chance at procreation. My guess is that she is willing to have sex with him only if unprotected.

Go read up on Catholic ideology and you'll see what I mean. There is a large group of women (and men) who think that sex (any sex) without procreative potential is inherently selfish. So, if you want to experience an orgasm with your wife without getting her pregnant, you are using her.


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