# Husband says no more Christmas Tree, Santa, Easter, kids upset



## MtnMomma

Thinking ahead about how to handle this situation- came up last year, and it was ugly. Need some thoughts on how to handle the upcoming holiday season. 

My husband & I have been married 17 years, we have two primary school age children. We have a christian home. My husband was raised more "religious" than I was, but we both feel it important to educate the children, and bible study as a family weekly. We have had a happy marriage, and have a like mind on almost everything- little arguing- until this holiday issue came up. 

Last year, my husband stated that he no longer wanted our family participating in Halloween, Christmas (no tree, tell the kids there is no Santa), no Easter, because it is pagan. Now please understand that we have celebrated and enjoyed all of these fully up to this point. His reasoning is that he believes the end-times for this earth are upon us- in our lifetime. He is very intelligent, and has always been "aware" of the signs of the end times, but feels that it is to be soon, and wants to make sure our family isn't doing anything to keep us from being saved. He believes that Christmas, the Christmas Tree, Santa, Halloween, and Easter are pagan, and was adamant about not participating in them any longer. 

I did not agree at all, and thought it was very confusing and mean to take away these fun traditions from our kids. He begin to spend a lot of time researching the pagan backgrounds of these holidays, and shared a bunch of his research with me. At his request, I watched several of the videos that vividly explain why Santa is Satan, the tree is pagan, Easter was when the babies were sacrificed, and eggs dipped in their blood, etc etc. I countered with my own research, and the fact that many things in our lives (days of the week, wedding rings, wedding ceremonies, etc.) begin as pagan, but now no longer have that meaning. Neither does the Christmas Tree- we do not "bow down" to it, or "worship" it- the symbolism for us has nothing to do with pagan practice or history- in fact I doubt 99% of people are even aware of the pagan background of these celebrations. It doesn't have that meaning for us today. This went on for weeks starting from before Halloween, through the end of the year. We have never argued so much (while the kids were in school- not in front of them), to the point of him screaming at me, which he has never done before. 

I believe it is important to present a united front for our kids, but I deeply felt taking away, on short notice, all the happy holiday traditions our kids have enjoyed for years, and were looking forward to was wrong. I fought very hard to keep to keep as much as we could last year. 

Halloween is pretty hard to argue for, so that was out- no trick-or-treating, but they did get to dress up for their school's harvest festival, which was mid-Oct. They did not get to do the parade at school, and were almost the only kids who had to sit it out, which made for a few awkward questions from their peers. I don't like them put in a situation where they feel "different". After many hot debates, we put up the Christmas tree several days before Christmas. My husband told the kids there was no Santa- which really upset me- they would have figured it within a few years anyway. He explained to them about the pagan origins, and that he understand more now about that, and why its bad to celebrate these holidays. He asked them if they understood, and of course, being good children who want to please their father, they agreed. In private though, they asked me why it was ok before, but not now, etc. It was hard for them, but they were troopers about it. 

I hated that there was this division between us, but I really felt it was wrong, and I told the kids that we had quite a few discussions/arguments about it, with me tying to keep the traditions in place. My youngest said she didn't care about the presents, or the tree, or anything- she was just worried that if we were arguing that we would get divorced. She was crying as she told me that, which hurt my heart. So if your advise is just to have him leave (which believe me, I considered)- keep that in mind.

So now, here we are with the holidays approaching. I imagine we will handle Halloween the same, with doing the harvest festival only. (no pumpkin carving either.) Last year, when my husband agreed for the tree to be up briefly, he said we would not do it the next year- so that is the conflict I'm gearing up for- I still want the tree. Re: Easter, we didn't color Easter eggs, but they did get to do the family meal and eater egg hunt- although as we were headed out the door on Easter, he said he didn't want them to do the egg hunt. We were literally on our way out the door to go do it, so I overruled- that was way to short notice to not do it. I'm sure it will be on the chopping block next Easter though. 

Aside from these holidays, our home has been pretty harmonious. Has anyone else dealt with a similar situation? Any advise on how to handle the upcoming holidays? How about my resentment about him taking away the fun for my kids, and for me as the mom of young kids? The holidays are one of the great perks of having kids, and since I do not believe it will harm our salvation, it just makes me sad to have it taken away. Sorry this post was so very long, but it is a little complicated, and I wanted to give as much info up front.


----------



## bbird1

maybe there is a compromise?

Try this maybe?
Celebrate the holidays both religiously and as you have. Attend Easter mass all together, Christmas mass the same. Spend time as a family enforcing the religious reasons behind these great holidays. Read some religious books about the holidays. Explain how santa aka Chris Cringle is a real person who saw suffering at a time that should be joyous so he began giving children and the poor gifts to bring joy to them. 

You do know Chris Cringle is a real person, a christian and the one who started the idea of giving gifts during this time of joy. 

Here is more compromise. Agree to give gifts of needs not just wants. I remember getting socks, underwear, coats, snow suit and other needs for Christmas and was more than happy to receive these gifts.

Easter is a pagan holiday that worships the goddess ishtar the fertility hence the bunnies and eggs. Again include the tails of the resurrection and find a way to work all the things into the story. Eggs represent new life to honor the risen jesus. The bunnies purity to represent his pure soul.

Hope things like this may help.


----------



## Married but Happy

You do realize that Christmas, Easter, and Halloween are all pagan celebrations, don't you? They were adopted by the Catholic church to entice people to convert. Maybe your husband is objecting to their pagan origin.

I'm not religious myself, but see no harm in celebrating holidays whatever their origin - it's a matter of putting things in context.


----------



## bbird1

Married but Happy said:


> You do realize that Christmas, Easter, and Halloween are all pagan celebrations, don't you? They were adopted by the Catholic church to entice people to convert. Maybe your husband is objecting to their pagan origin.
> 
> I'm not religious myself, but see no harm in celebrating holidays whatever their origin - it's a matter of putting things in context.


I see your post is helpful to her or was that directed at me? Either way i would bet you they attend Easter mass, ash Wednesday, Christmas mass. either way at least I've given constructive advice and sorry you didn't like it.


----------



## justonelife

I see these holidays as more of a family/social tradition rather than "pagan" or "christian". If you want to go to church on Easter to celebrate the resurrection, great. Fabulous. What does that have to do with hunting easter eggs? It's just a fun event, like celebrating a birthday or anniversary or even having a weekly family game night. You aren't worshiping some ancient god just because you hang some stockings over your fireplace. Sheesh. People take these things way too seriously IMO.


----------



## Vega

Since WHEN is *CHRIST*mas a "pagan" holiday? Christmas is about the celebration of the _birth of CHRIST. _

And Easter is the celebration of the Resurrection of Christ. 


I think I'd be putting my foot down on top of your h's and tell him that if HE doesn't want to celebrate with the rest of the family, he's welcome not to. But if he's going to spoil it for the kids, he's not being very "Christian". 

Vega


----------



## Vega

justonelife said:


> You aren't worshiping some ancient god just because you hang some stockings over your fireplace. Sheesh. People take these things way too seriously IMO.


Seriously! It seems like more and more people these days are deliberately LOOKING for reasons to be "offended"! :scratchhead:

Vega


----------



## Maricha75

He's right... the Christmas tree has Pagan origins. The presents under the tree, however, IMO, are symbolic of the gifts brought to Jesus when he was born. Santa? We have never "done" Santa with our kids. We chose to keep the reason for Christmas as Christ-centered, not Santa-centered.

Easter eggs, Easter baskets, Easter Bunny.... again, we don't "do" that either. Instead, we celebrate the Passover time, and celebrate Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. 

Truthfully, kicking the Pagan aspects out, my kids still have plenty of fun on the holidays. But, since my husband was born and raised Jewish, we also incorporate Hanukkah around Christmastime. I guess I don't see a problem with removing those things... Kids still have fun, even without the Pagan stuff.


----------



## mablenc

Do your religuos leaders belive the same as he does? Maybe they can intervene in finding a middle ground. While I respect your beliefs, I will say based on my experience that there's a fine line from keeping true to your faith and becoming a fanatic. Sometimes when we discover new things such as the pegan influence in Christianity it can be overwhelming. I agree with others that compromising would be your best bet. 

Without implying anything and with all due respect, I will also mention that you need to watch out for paranoia as sometimes this is how a mental illness can manifest itself. Also to Make sure to check over your finances as many people have poured their life savings and all their assets to "end of day" campaigning.


----------



## Maricha75

bbird1 said:


> I see your post is helpful to her or was that directed at me? *Either way i would bet you they attend Easter mass, ash Wednesday, Christmas mass*. either way at least I've given constructive advice and sorry you didn't like it.


Isn't that only Catholic? My church doesn't do masses. And we don't do anything with ash Wednesday, nor Lent. :scratchhead:


----------



## Married but Happy

bbird1 said:


> I see your post is helpful to her or was that directed at me? Either way i would bet you they attend Easter mass, ash Wednesday, Christmas mass. either way at least I've given constructive advice and sorry you didn't like it.


I thought your advice was very good. I hadn't seen your post when I wrote mine. Just because we strongly disagree on some issues does not mean we will not agree on others.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

Vega said:


> Since WHEN is *CHRIST*mas a "pagan" holiday? Christmas is about the celebration of the _birth of CHRIST. _
> 
> And Easter is the celebration of the Resurrection of Christ.
> 
> 
> I think I'd be putting my foot down on top of your h's and tell him that if HE doesn't want to celebrate with the rest of the family, he's welcome not to. But if he's going to spoil it for the kids, he's not being very "Christian".
> 
> Vega


This seems to be a hot trend right now. My wife is very religious (I am not) and she contemplated the idea for awhile. I do know a number of families from within her social circle that have stopped celebrating those holidays.

I believe the reasoning was that these holidays do not actually fall on the exact days that Christ was born and had risen from the dead. The calendar days we celebrate Christmas and Easter are pagan in nature (not biblical) and are associated with pagan rituals and traditions.

You don't want me to write what I was thinking when my wife started suggesting this.


----------



## that_girl

A friend of mine had a husband who did something similar.

He was in a weird cult.

This is way too much for me to deal with. All these things are fun. I'd have to ask my husband and his wackadoo ideas to leave.


----------



## that_girl

And why is he making all the rules? Yea.

All too reminiscent of my friend's husband in that crazy a22 cult.


----------



## Maricha75

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> This seems to be a hot trend right now. My wife is very religious (I am not) and she contemplated the idea for awhile. I do know a number of families from within her social circle that have stopped celebrating those holidays.
> 
> I believe the reasoning was that these holidays do not actually fall on the exact days that Christ was born and had risen from the dead. *The calendar days we celebrate Christmas and Easter are pagan in nature (not biblical) and are associated with pagan rituals and traditions.*
> 
> You don't want me to write what I was thinking when my wife started suggesting this.


Yes, that is completely accurate for Christmas, but only half true for Easter. Most often, from what I have noticed, the TIME for Easter usually coincides with Passover in the Jewish calendar. It's only been a few times that I have noticed a difference. Anyway, I know that during those years when it does, in fact, coincide with the Jewish calendar/Passover, then it IS correct. So, the date, itself, may not be exact, but the time of year is, in fact, right.


----------



## Maricha75

that_girl said:


> A friend of mine had a husband who did something similar.
> 
> He was in a weird cult.
> 
> This is way too much for me to deal with. All these things are fun. I'd have to ask my husband and his wackadoo ideas to leave.





that_girl said:


> And why is he making all the rules? Yea.
> 
> All too reminiscent of my friend's husband in that crazy a22 cult.


I know these things SEEM similar to what your friend went through, btu there ARE legitimate churches whose members DO feel this way about the holidays. And, they ahve felt this way all along. I think it would be better to offer advice on this, maybe find a possible compromise they could work with, if there is one, rather than write her husband off as insane. I suppose next, you will tell me that I am insane because I chose to tell my children the truth about who "Santa" was, from the beginning, and that "Santa" isn't the one who gives them gifts? And I'm also insane for telling my children there is no tooth fairy, nor Easter bunny, etc?

Honestly, just the little bit the OP posted sounds quite a bit like what my church has taught for many years. I won't speak for certain on that, though, because she never said what the denomination is. Still, I believe it is ridiculous to write him off as crazy or insane, just because his beliefs don't mesh with your own....and because of what your friend went through.


----------



## justonelife

I think part of what the OP is objecting to is the fact that her husband is changing the rules. If they had agreed to no Santa, Easter Bunny, etc before the kids were born, that's fine. But he has been fine with them all along and now is suddenly and at the last minute telling the whole family to stop participating in this activities. I can imagine that is pretty confusing and upsetting for the kids.


----------



## bbird1

justonelife said:


> I think part of what the OP is objecting to is the fact that her husband is changing the rules. If they had agreed to no Santa, Easter Bunny, etc before the kids were born, that's fine. But he has been fine with them all along and now is suddenly and at the last minute telling the whole family to stop participating in this activities. I can imagine that is pretty confusing and upsetting for the kids.


That was exactly why i suggested making them religious and celebratory. Take the time to explain the REAL meaning of the holiday or at least it's good intentions.


----------



## BrockLanders

Married but Happy said:


> You do realize that Christmas, Easter, and Halloween are all pagan celebrations, don't you? They were adopted by the Catholic church to entice people to convert. Maybe your husband is objecting to their pagan origin.
> 
> I'm not religious myself, but see no harm in celebrating holidays whatever their origin - it's a matter of putting things in context.


It's meaningless that they were pagan holidays. The extant pagan aspects of them aren't of any religious value, they're simply cultural. There's no one, no fringe cults that worship the easter bunny, Santa Claus or anything else of the like.


----------



## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby

That's pretty cruel to the kids actually. I can see if he started this before they were born. I also assume he celebrated all holidays as a child and it was never taken away from him.

I find this very controlling. This will really effect the kids. Especially when they are asked at school by their peers what they got for Christmas. Halloween is acceptable to leave out. Not that it's a "pegan" event. Rather that the kids don't need all that candy.

For Christmas and Easter we do give the kids gifts and celebrate the Christian way.

I don't believe the end times are near. It is impossible to predict something like this. We are still alive from last December when it was all over the TV that Earth was ending or even the Y2k crap, when the year 2,000 hit.

Anyway, this wouldn't fly with me. I wouldn't intentionally take something away from my kids, especially since they look forward to it and there is no harm in it at all.


----------



## MtnMomma

Yes- that was the big confusion, the kids even said- ok so we've been doing this for all these years, and now we can't? I felt this was very hurtful and confusing for them and me. My husband felt now that he knows more about the origins that it was a matter of our families salvation, but I don't believe we wont not be saved if we have a tree up.


----------



## Married but Happy

BrockLanders said:


> It's meaningless that they were pagan holidays. The extant pagan aspects of them aren't of any religious value, they're simply cultural. There's no one, no fringe cults that worship the easter bunny, Santa Claus or anything else of the like.


They still are pagan holidays, celebrated as Ostara, and the winter Solstice. Many of the elements are cultural remnants and not of religious significance.

Miscellaneous:
Easter candy isn’t Christian. The Easter bunny isn’t Christian. Easter eggs aren’t Christian. Most of what people commonly associate with Easter is pagan in origin; the rest is commercial. Pagan roots of Easter lie in celebrating the spring equinox. A focus of spring religious festivals was a god whose own death and rebirth symbolized the death and rebirth of life during this time of the year. Many pagan religions had gods who were depicted as dying and being reborn.


----------



## MtnMomma

They still had their gifts at Christmas, I'd told them however it went, they would have their presents. We don't believe the date of Christmas actually is the birth date of Jesus, so for our family, Christmas has been secular anyway, so that is why I didn't see the harm in the tree, Santa, etc.


----------



## BrockLanders

Married but Happy said:


> They still are pagan holidays, celebrated as Ostara, and the winter Solstice. Many of the elements are cultural remnants and not of religious significance.
> 
> Miscellaneous:
> Easter candy isn’t Christian. The Easter bunny isn’t Christian. Easter eggs aren’t Christian. Most of what people commonly associate with Easter is pagan in origin; the rest is commercial. Pagan roots of Easter lie in celebrating the spring equinox. A focus of spring religious festivals was a god whose own death and rebirth symbolized the death and rebirth of life during this time of the year. Many pagan religions had gods who were depicted as dying and being reborn.


The things you mention are true yet irrelevant. There's no secret cult that is celebrating the feast of Saturnalia because they were exposed to a christmas tree. Children are not going to spontaneously begin sacrificing pigs on your front lawn for the goddess Ostara because they colored some eggs.


----------



## mablenc

BrockLanders said:


> The things you mention are true yet irrelevant. There's no secret cult that is celebrating the feast of Saturnalia because they were exposed to a christmas tree. Children are not going to spontaneously begin sacrificing pigs on your front lawn for the goddess Ostara because they colored some eggs.


While you make a good point, some people see as worshiping other gods and idols. If you didn't know there is no harm done, but if you know and actively participate in some religions they will consider it as taking part in a pagean ritual.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LonelyinLove

Hi MtnMomma,

I believe we are living in the end times as well. Even if we are, that doesn't mean we shut down our every day lives.

Some of our Holidays may have evolved from non-Christian days, but so what? It's how WE celebrate them that matters.

December 25 is not Jesus's B-day, but it's a day to celebrate it all the same. We have no idea the actual B-day for our son that we adopted from China...we celebrate the day that was picked by his orphanage. 

We used to attend a church that had issues with Halloween....so they had "Trunk or Treat" in the church parking lot for the local children....we had face paintings, games, prizes, etc..And another church had a Harvest Party. Kids could still dress up, get candy and have fun in a safe environment.

There's a saying...you can be so Heavenly minded that you are no earthly good....

I believe this applies to these legalistic churches that go looking for demons under every rock and their list of "Thou shalt not's" is a mile long.

For anyone that truly believes we are in the end times, doesn't it seem the focus should be reaching out to our communities and our families with the Love of Christ instead of turning folks off with legalistic nonsense?


----------



## that_girl

Maricha75 said:


> I know these things SEEM similar to what your friend went through, btu there ARE legitimate churches whose members DO feel this way about the holidays. And, they ahve felt this way all along. I think it would be better to offer advice on this, maybe find a possible compromise they could work with, if there is one, rather than write her husband off as insane. I suppose next, you will tell me that I am insane because I chose to tell my children the truth about who "Santa" was, from the beginning, and that "Santa" isn't the one who gives them gifts? And I'm also insane for telling my children there is no tooth fairy, nor Easter bunny, etc?
> 
> Honestly, just the little bit the OP posted sounds quite a bit like what my church has taught for many years. I won't speak for certain on that, though, because she never said what the denomination is. Still, I believe it is ridiculous to write him off as crazy or insane, just because his beliefs don't mesh with your own....and because of what your friend went through.


For me, it was the switch that he hit. They didn't marry like this. They didn't discuss this. She said they had holidays and christmas trees, etc...until recently. That change is what made me think of a cult. Flipping the script in a marriage like this is damaging. I couldn't compromise with someone thinking a Christmas tree is somehow wrong or pagan, if when I married him, he was ok with it. 

Telling kids the truth about Santa is your choice. But I'm sure when you got married, you didn't tell your husband that you can't wait to play Santa with the kids (and he was all into it) and then you went and told them there is no Santa. ....taking away his ideas of a holiday.

Religious beliefs are fine. I heard he was into the "end of the world" stuff and now all of this holiday stuff which is exactly how my friend's husband was behaving while in a "religion"...aka end of times cult.


----------



## Maricha75

that_girl said:


> For me, it was the switch that he hit. They didn't marry like this. They didn't discuss this. She said they had holidays and christmas trees, etc...until recently. That change is what made me think of a cult. Flipping the script in a marriage like this is damaging. I couldn't compromise with someone thinking a Christmas tree is somehow wrong or pagan, if when I married him, he was ok with it.
> 
> Telling kids the truth about Santa is your choice. But I'm sure when you got married, you didn't tell your husband that you can't wait to play Santa with the kids (and he was all into it) and then you went and told them there is no Santa. ....taking away his ideas of a holiday.
> 
> Religious beliefs are fine. I heard he was into the "end of the world" stuff and now all of this holiday stuff which is exactly how my friend's husband was behaving while in a "religion"...aka end of times cult.


When we married, we were doing most holiday things like my family. My husband was Jewish. No Santa, no Christmas tree, no Easter Bunny, etc. with his family. And we did have a tree for the first few years. We haven't had one for the last two or three. I won't say we never will again, because nothing is guaranteed, of course. And the kids have been told the truth about Santa and all the other "icons" for the holidays. Their friends all believe in them..or rather, the friends of the little ones do. Our kids ask questions, and we answer them. But yea, it causes some confusion when their friends believe in something they don't.

As for the OP's husband...well, she said herself that he's always been aware of various signs, so it's not like this is new. The only thing "new" is removing the tree and telling the kids the truth about these fictitious icons. I know the "end times" reference raised a red flag for you, and I understand and respect that. I really do. I just want to point out that there are many in my own church, which IS one that talks a lot about end times and signs, etc., who have had trees, and even allowed the "Santa thing" and Easter Bunny, etc... but now they don't. My only point is that the knowledge/understanding isn't new... the only thing new is how he is handling it.


----------



## that_girl

Yea. I definitely understand the OPs irritation/somewhat panic in this.

Religion (holiday practices, beliefs, etc) is so important for me when choosing a mate. I KNOW I couldn't deal if someone took away my Christmas or decided to become some other religion and expecting me and the girls to follow with it. I'm all for personal growth, just don't push it on me.

If the OP and her husband can't compromise, then what? She gives up holidays because of his beliefs? She puts up a tree and pisses him off? I dunno.

I feel for her because I couldn't live like that. Or...I'd just go have Christmas with friends and THEIR tree.


----------



## Ikaika

I know Judaism is different from Christianity but there are Christian version of every Jewish celebration. You could incorporate a Christianized version of the Festival of Lights into what used to be Christmas. Trust me there are plenty of biblical references to how to fashion this one.

For Easter, Just have a Christianized version of a Seder feast. Your kids will love it and the New Testament ties to the Old Testament events are what your H will enjoy as well. There is a part of the Seder where you hide the Afikomen (like hiding Easter eggs). 

I am an atheist, but I have Christian friends who put fun into their beliefs, not doing so is going to be a turn off for your kids.


----------



## ShyEnglishman

Ok, this is an easy one. OP, tell your husband he is being what we in the UK call, a Knobhead.

Jesus, come on, prematurely bursting the kids' bubble and ruining his family life because he's in a huff because he's realised HIS religion is a sham? Sorry, but its no time for compromise. You need to cut off all his priveleges until he sees sense.

Yes, all the major Christian festivals are stolen from earlier pagan belief systems (incidentally, check the definition of 'pagan', it is not as most believe, a pagan is someone who believes other than the state endorsed or widely accepted belief system. A Christian is a pagan in a muslim country or example).

Christmas: Check out Mythras. Also note winter solstice. Christmas is celebrated at different dates in different countries, reflecting the different date on which the sun first re-emerges over the horizon after the winter darkness in the far northern parts.

Easter: The christians didn't even got to the effort of changing the name on this one. Easter happens on the first full moon following the spring equinox. In ancient Norse beliefs, the goddess of fertility was called Oestre, and she manifested as the full moon, bringing life back to the world after the 'death' of winter.

Lent, this is what is called in horticulture/aggriculture, 'the hungry gap'. The preserves and winter stockpiles are running low, Oestre hasn't reawoken the world yet to bring more food.

Halloween. Read up on Samhain.

*All totally irrelevant*. What we have here is a man who is being horrible to his family, just because HE is upset. This is no time for tact and diplomacy. If I was that horrible, I would fully expect my wife to cross her legs and keep them crossed until I came to my senses. That's if I was lucky enough that she didn't simply take the kids and go to her mother's until I'd seen sense.


----------



## Maricha75

Wow...so, ShyEnglishman, you are saying she needs to tell him "no sex until you allow me to put up a tree, lie to the kids about Santa, the Easter Bunny, etc." Wow... yea, totally not even in the same ballpark.


----------



## EleGirl

MtnMomma said:


> They still had their gifts at Christmas, I'd told them however it went, they would have their presents. We don't believe the date of Christmas actually is the birth date of Jesus, so for our family, Christmas has been secular anyway, so that is why I didn't see the harm in the tree, Santa, etc.


We don't always celebrate birthdays on the date of a person's birth. Nothing unusual about that. No one even knows the exact date on which Jesus was born. What's important to most Christians is celebrating the birth, not what day that celebration falls on.

When it comes to things like trees, decorations, Easter eggs, bunnies, etc., Santa, etc, yes they are secular trappings. We do not worship these things. They are not what the holidays (holy days) are about. But there is thing that precludes Christians from having some fun after worship on those holy days.

Christmas has become very commercial and secular for some. But no one has to make it just about the commercial/secular things.

In raising my kids, we did things like the tree. But I taught them the difference between was religious observance/worship and what was just for fun.


----------



## ShyEnglishman

Maricha75 said:


> Wow...so, ShyEnglishman, you are saying she needs to tell him "no sex until you allow me to put up a tree, lie to the kids about Santa, the Easter Bunny, etc." Wow... yea, totally not even in the same ballpark.


Yes. If she and the kids want a christmas tree and want to celebrate easter and he is being a nasty spiteful man about it, then yes, that's exactly what I suggest.

As for lying to the kids, two things there.
1) Apart from the Santa and Easter Bunny parts, is it lying? When I was little, we didn't meed to believe any of the church imposed rubbish, we just enjoyed the traditions and celebration.

2) Even if it is lying, so what? There is enough unpleasant truth in the world and the kids will have to learn that soon enough. Why make them grow up prematurely? Especially if its for no other reason than the spite of a man that disregards the feelings of his own wife and kids?

I'd be tempted to ask Mr Scrooge, if he is so devout christian, surely he must be able to direct us to the passage in the bible that says something like "and lo, though shalt forbid thy children from having fun".


----------



## *LittleDeer*

I don't think it's fair for your husband to try and suddenly change things which have been wonderful and enjoyable to you and your children. 

When you married I imagine that you both were in agreeance about these traditions, and now your children are going to have those taken away because your husband has suddenly changed his views.

No I don't think that's fair at all. 

I would definitely stand my ground if I were you.


----------



## EleGirl

*LittleDeer* said:


> I don't think it's fair for your husband to try and suddenly change things which have been wonderful and enjoyable to you and your children.
> 
> When you married I imagine that you both were in agreeance about these traditions, and now your children are going to have those taken away because your husband has suddenly changed his views.
> 
> No I don't think that's fair at all.
> 
> I would definitely stand my ground if I were you.


I agree with this.

Another thing that bothers me is that her husband apparently resorted to yelling and angry outbursts to try to get his way on this. That is not a 'Christian' thing to do.


----------



## Maricha75

ShyEnglishman said:


> Yes. If she and the kids want a christmas tree and want to celebrate easter and he is being a nasty spiteful man about it, then yes, that's exactly what I suggest.
> 
> As for lying to the kids, two things there.
> 1) Apart from the Santa and Easter Bunny parts, is it lying? When I was little, we didn't meed to believe any of the church imposed rubbish, we just enjoyed the traditions and celebration.
> 
> 2) Even if it is lying, so what? There is enough unpleasant truth in the world and the kids will have to learn that soon enough. Why make them grow up prematurely? Especially if its for no other reason than the spite of a man that disregards the feelings of his own wife and kids?
> 
> I'd be tempted to ask Mr Scrooge, if he is so devout christian, surely he must be able to direct us to the passage in the bible that says something like "and lo, though shalt forbid thy children from having fun".


As I said, I see nothing wrong with telling the kids the truth about all of those make believe icons surrounding the holidays. And, your feelings regarding the church teachings are noted in your statement that it is "rubbish". You believe it to be "rubbish". The OP, as a Christian, does not view these things as "rubbish". And withholding sex is a stupid suggestion for this issue.



EleGirl said:


> I agree with this.
> 
> *Another thing that bothers me is that her husband apparently resorted to yelling and angry outbursts to try to get his way on this. That is not a 'Christian' thing to do.*


Everyone gets angry, even Christians... and even Jesus. I'm not saying outbursts are good, or even right. I'm saying it's not a good idea to say someone is "not very Christian" if he gets angry and yells.


----------



## EleGirl

Maricha75 said:


> Everyone gets angry, even Christians... and even Jesus. I'm not saying outbursts are good, or even right. I'm saying it's not a good idea to say someone is "not very Christian" if he gets angry and yells.


I understand this. However this is a man who is forcing huge changes on his family, against their wishes, and using Christianity to justify it. This is not a normal situation.


----------



## Maricha75

EleGirl said:


> I understand this. However this is a man who is forcing huge changes on his family, against their wishes, and using Christianity to justify it. This is not a normal situation.


I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one. I, myself, see nothing wrong with what he has done, wrt the tree and Santa, etc. I can understand the OP, and even the kids, balking at the idea... but really, I just don't see anything wrong with what he has said and done... based solely on what the OP has said. These things he has said to cut out are only an extension of things she has known about him, and his beliefs, all along.


----------



## ShyEnglishman

Maricha75 said:


> And, your feelings regarding the church teachings are noted in your statement that it is "rubbish". You believe it to be "rubbish". The OP, as a Christian, does not view these things as "rubbish".


Yes he does. Read it again. The whole problem is that he's realised that his religion is based on earlier pagan beliefs. He's found out that when he brings a christmas tree into the house over the dark period of winter, he is enacting the ancient custom of bringing evergreens in to serve as a reminder that life can survive the darkness. He's realised that when he celebrates easter, an event that the church teaches is the anniversary of the resurrection of Christ, isn't an anniversary of anything because it happens on a different date every year, because it all depends on when the first full moon after spring equinox is, ie when, according to Norse beliefs, the goddess Oestre manifests as the moon and reawaken the land.

Its right there in the OPs original post. He has banned 'christian' festivals because he's realised they are pagan, and while HIS own teachings tell him to 'Love thy neighbour', clearly he can't reconcile that idea, which really ought to transcend all belief systems, with his realisation that Christianity is a rip off.


----------



## EleGirl

ShyEnglishman said:


> Yes he does. Read it again. The whole problem is that he's realised that his religion is based on earlier pagan beliefs. He's found out that when he brings a christmas tree into the house over the dark period of winter, he is enacting the ancient custom of bringing evergreens in to serve as a reminder that life can survive the darkness. He's realised that when he celebrates easter, an event that the church teaches is the anniversary of the resurrection of Christ, isn't an anniversary of anything because it happens on a different date every year, because it all depends on when the first full moon after spring equinox is, ie when, according to Norse beliefs, the goddess Oestre manifests as the moon and reawaken the land.
> 
> Its right there in the OPs original post. He has banned 'christian' festivals because he's realised they are pagan, and while HIS own teachings tell him to 'Love thy neighbour', clearly he can't reconcile that idea, which really ought to transcend all belief systems, with his realisation that Christianity is a rip off.


You are confusing Christianity with stuff like trees used as decorations. The tree has never been a required part of Christmas holy day. It is not used by Christians all over the world. It was not used by early Christians. When I was a child I lived in countries where the Christians had never even heard of a Christmas tree, Santa, etc. One of these was the Coptic Christians community it Ethiopia. Others were the Orthodox and Malachite Christians in North Africa and the middle east. 

There is nothing in Christian theology/doctrine that requires or even mentions decorated trees, Santa Clause, Halloween, carved pumpkins, colored eggs, Easter bunnies and candy.

He is not questioning Christianity. He has only recently realized that none of those things are required to be a Christian.


What the OP's husband is trying to do is to strip away everything but the bare bones of what he considers to be Christian theology.


----------



## Maricha75

ShyEnglishman said:


> Yes he does. Read it again. The whole problem is that he's realised that his religion is based on earlier pagan beliefs. He's found out that when he brings a christmas tree into the house over the dark period of winter, he is enacting the ancient custom of bringing evergreens in to serve as a reminder that life can survive the darkness. He's realised that when he celebrates easter, an event that the church teaches is the anniversary of the resurrection of Christ, isn't an anniversary of anything because it happens on a different date every year, because it all depends on when the first full moon after spring equinox is, ie when, according to Norse beliefs, the goddess Oestre manifests as the moon and reawaken the land.
> 
> Its right there in the OPs original post. He has banned 'christian' festivals because he's realised they are pagan, and while HIS own teachings tell him to 'Love thy neighbour', clearly he can't reconcile that idea, which really ought to transcend all belief systems, with his realisation that Christianity is a rip off.


No, what he has done is banish the traditional SECULAR things related to these holidays. Again, I see nothing wrong with taking the secular things out and focusing on the Christian parts...since they are all Christians (meaning the OP and the family). And, withholding sex (per your suggestion, ShyEnglishman) because he removed those things IS stupid.


----------



## Ikaika

Not so sure the OP is reading any more. 

All modern day religions are simply an amalgamation of previous customs, practices and beliefs. So it seems complicated to take a pure hardline stance on any customary practice and assume it does not follow principles set out in some ancient writings. If one really wanted to point to events on the brith of true Christianity it happened post Jesus anyway, Book of Acts. Therefore taking a hardline stance to follow true Christianity, then living in a commune would be the way to purity. Private ownership would be tantamount to greed and thus would not be pure Christianity. 

I still think (if the OP is reading) to take a more positive spin on this and encourage using some old Jewish practices spelled out in both the New and Old Testament and Christianize it. Hunting for Easter eggs may seem pagan but at the Seder dinner (Celebrated at Passover), an piece of flat bread put into colored cloth, Afikomen, could be hidden. It could symbolize all kinds of things, the buried body of Christ found and when returned the child gets a prize. There are many other ways to take every American Holiday apply Jewish traditions found in the bible and put a Christian tone and lesson. If one really wants to teach their children to embrace their belief system one need to use some form of binding and symbolic practices in place. All religions tend to follow some traditional practices as to bind people together. We embrace when we can celebrate and feast together. 

I don't know if the OP could make these suggestions, but why not spend the time to open up your bible and list out what could be done and make new and exciting and fun customs for your family. I really hope you are still listening.


----------



## Starstarfish

I feel compelled to repost my comments from another thread Now, in particular this has to do with Christmas, but the thought remains. (The OP in the other thread was the husband.) 

First, let me say that a lot of things might have "pagan" origins, but - in the modern day and age they have completely lost that meaning. Just to play Devil's advocate for a moment - does she call the days of the week something else, given that for example, Thursday is named after Thor and Friday is named after Frigga? (Norse pagan gods.)

As for a discussion about the origins of the Christmas tree, like anything of folkloric tradition, its origin is up for debate, and historians have a variety of theories as to the original purpose behind the practice.

Open warning - I'm a Master's level History major graduate, so - this might get boring, boggy, and technical.



> Yes - there is a commonly held belief that the Christmas tree began as some unknown "pre-Christian" ceremony of unknown purpose, however, evidence for the practice of a Christmas tree as we know it (AKA decorating it, and putting it out specifically for Christmas time) doesn't show up in historical writings into well into the Middle Ages. None of the accounts of pre-Christian times (AKA writings from Romans or Greeks about Celts or Germanics peoples) specifically mention decorating a tree, particularly an evergreen as a celebration, as most of the focus is the native interest in oak trees. Popular Victorian-era psuedo-historical books like "The Golden Bough" over-emphasized the importance of tree worship to Druid-led Celtic groups, so it's not a big leap that the two things have been linked together - Christmas trees and "pagans", even if there's little to no historical evidence to support that theory.
> 
> Instead, the Christmas tree was thought to have been a practice began by a shipping Guild, who used the tree as a way to store prizes (quite often food) for their annual holiday party. Concurrently, trees were also used for medieval mystery plays (theatrical representations of Biblical stories) to represent the tree in the Garden of Eden, and as such were decorated with apples, and wafers. These plays were performed on Christmas Eve, to remind parishioners on why Christ's coming was neccessary - the Fall of Man, and sin, and so - the tree, covered in apples served as a reminder. Over time, the apples gave way to shiny red ornaments and the wafers into homemade cookies, and candles (which sounds really dangerous) were added to represent the Light Christ brought to a dark world.
> 
> Christmas trees for home decoration were most popular in German Lutheran areas, where Christmas trees were used to decorate the home and show denomination allegiance, as Catholic homes preferred to decorate with a creche (AKA a manger scene) instead. Hessian soldiers brought to Canada and America by the British introduced the practice to North America.
> 
> Ultimately, the practice became worldwide, and was adopted by cultures and people the world over. Each country/culture has its own symbols as to what generally goes on the tree, when the tree should be put up or taken down, etc. Ultimately, these days the Christmas tree serves a purpose even in families that are not Christian, or are non-practicing - it serves as a family ceremony of yearly remembrance, decorating with ornaments passed down over the generations, and purchased over a life time.
> 
> As for how to compromise with her on this, perhaps you should explain that last part - assuming that is the reason you enjoy the practice, that it reminds you of family, that it brings up good memories, that it is a family tradition. Explain that you are willing to also decorate with more religious symbology as well ( a manger scene?) but you are hoping she can understand why this is important to you.


This whole Christmas tree as pagan thing is off, there's 0% historical evidence that "pagans" even utilized, decorated, or had "Yule trees" in the sense we imagine. Also the whole "Christmas trees as secular" thing is off too, as noted above. 

As to the Halloween thing, yes, that's inherently pagan, and inherently commercial. So is Valentine's Day if you want to get into it. 

I do think that if the OP's husband feels so strongly about it, he should put his money where his mouth is, and send the kids to religious school. But expecting them to ostracize themselves and make themselves out for ridicule because of what makes him uncomfortable while attending public school is unfair on them. School is hard enough socially without having to constantly say "My dad doesn't like it." 

And what's the fine line here about how much his beliefs can dictate his family's life before it's gone overboard? I mean, if he sets up the red tent in the backyard, and starts expecting his wife to sleep out there during her period, is that okay too?


----------



## ShyEnglishman

Starstarfish said:


> This whole Christmas tree as pagan thing is off, there's 0% historical evidence that "pagans" even utilized, decorated, or had "Yule trees" in the sense we imagine.


The christmas tree as we know it today is ENTIRELY a commercially created thing. There is no sinificant folklore associated with pine or spruce trees.

The "original" christmas trees were Holly trees. Holly does have lots of folklore attached to it, both pre-Christian celtic beliefs and later, with the red berries representing the blood of christ. Even this though, the holly tree was not used as a Christmas tree until just a couple of hundred years ago, and even then, due to the slow growth rate of holly, it is expensive, so only the very rich bothered.

The tradition of bringing pieces of evergreen plants into the home over winter is much older. There is archaeological evidence for the ritual in Stonehenge of all places, as well as plenty of more recent digs. With folklore dating back so far, it is difficult as you say to be 100% sure of anything, because most of it is not directly recorded, but has to be pieced together from archaeological findings, art and poetry, but it is widely believed that the reason bits of evergreen plant were brought in was to either serve as a reminder that things can survive winter, or to win favour with the spirits of the woods to win their protection.

Nowadays it doesn't matter. The christmas tree is really just a decoration to remind us that its christmas. If we want to reflect on it as the birth of Jesus Christ, fine. If we want to reflect on it as a reminder that things can survive winter, also fine. If we just want to be reminded that its a bit of time off school/work to spend with the family but with no spiritual connection at all, that's fine too. That's the bit that OP's husband seems to have overlooked.


----------



## captainstormy

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> This seems to be a hot trend right now. My wife is very religious (I am not) and she contemplated the idea for awhile. I do know a number of families from within her social circle that have stopped celebrating those holidays.
> 
> I believe the reasoning was that these holidays do not actually fall on the exact days that Christ was born and had risen from the dead. The calendar days we celebrate Christmas and Easter are pagan in nature (not biblical) and are associated with pagan rituals and traditions.
> 
> You don't want me to write what I was thinking when my wife started suggesting this.


What he said!

The Catholic church did originally set the dates for Christmas and Easter to coincide with Pagan holidays. They thought it would help convert people to Christianity.

That said, Christmas and Easter have very religious reasons for being celebrated these days. 

If your husband wanted to get rid of Santa, elves, the Easter bunny and all that stuff from Christmas and Easter I could see that. Refocusing on the religious aspects of it. But getting rid of it all together seems silly.

We really have no idea exactly when Christ was born or resurrected. If the exact date was that important I'm pretty sure he would have told one someone to make a note of it. He didn't, which leads me to believe that celebrating his birth, and resurrection are important but not the exact dates.

That said, there really isn't any argument that Halloween has no christian basis.


----------



## Fozzy

I had a pastor that used to keep carved idols in his office when he taught seminary. The other staff were horrified and when they confronted him he asked them--is that piece of wood really a deity? Of course they said no, to which he replied "then why can't i keep a piece of wood in my office?" I think he was just trying to mess with them because he's like that.

Point being--Jesus isn't going to keep your kids out of heaven for trick or treating, because that's not worshipping Satan. It's just extorting candy.


----------



## Gaia

Ok let me put it this way. Easter, christmas, halloween are all holidays celebrated slightly differently based on ones belief. Christmas is not pagan due to it being the celebration of the birth of christ. It may fall on the pagan holiday yule but so does feliz navidad and many other holidays. 


The same with easter. If i recall right it is the celebration of .... the passover? I may be wrong... lol can't quite recall correctly. One thing i hate to see is others giving up something they enjoy just because it shares the same date as something else. 


Tell your husband... Yule is pagan. Christms is not. Easter... well since you all are christian then rightfully it is whatever you choose it to be. For pagans it's something else... but don't give it up just because it shares the same date. 

Celebrating these holidays in your own christian way is not a sin that i can see. After all I am sure your god would be quite pleased you were celebrating them in his honor rather then the way some of us others such as myself celebrate them. Your not doing wrong by him when you celebrate them in his honor. 

Not that i can see anyway. That's just my opinion.


----------



## ILoveMyWife!

I would talk to a pastor or equivalent and get their opinion and then have then talk to your husband. I could not imagine getting rid of my families holiday traditions and celebrations. That's a tough road to travel.


----------



## calmwinds

Ok, here goes. Having been born into a Southern Baptist Bible-thumping family on my paternal GF side, Native American on Paternal GM side (who were the medicine-men/witchdoctors), Celtic on Maternal Grandparents' side, I found it interesting several years ago when I began practicing yoga that a family member was concerned about all the Sanskrit and chanting and was concerned for my Salvation. 

My reply was this..."Chanting in Sanskrit doesn't make me Hindu any more than eating fried chicken makes me a Baptist."

That said, regardless of HOW you celebrate, as long as the children are AWARE of the history involved, doesn't change a person's beliefs. If anything, when they are older, they may very well become those Scrooges that hate Holidays simply because of the way OP's husband has chosen to suddenly enforce his newfound "enlightenment".


----------



## LemiLekySama

My husband got baptized as a Jehovah's Witness in 2012...since then he absolutely WILL NOT compromise on a lot of things, celebrating holidays/birthdays is one of them. I'm not a JW (I believe it is a cult) but I am a Christian, so I celebrate holidays. When it comes to Thanksgiving or Christmas, I'll fly back home to be with family, bc it's absolutely horrible, for me, to not be around family during those times. It amazes me that he claims he doesn't celebrate bc of pagan backgrounds, but he'll do everyday things that have pagan backgrounds and that's ok, bc The Watchtower says it is...for now. Plus, he starts acting all extra weird around this time & he'll start putting in all these extra field service hours/bible study hours. And the only thing him & his JW friends will talk about is how lucky they are to have "The Truth" & not indulge in Pagan things...kinda like they feel sad or guilty about something. We don't have kids, so, thankfully, there's no issue of that!


----------



## MagnoliaBlossom

I am sorry your experience with your dh becoming a JW has been so unpleasant and stressful for you. I did want to comment that perhaps even though he is committed to not celebrating the holidays he does still feel the pull of this time of year and I am sure it IS hard on him. Doubly so knowing you are celebrating and that you are unhappy with him.

I have been a JW my entire life and I can assure you I feel nothing this time of year. Not guilt, jealousy---nothing. And as far as why we do not celebrate the holidays....it is because we do all we can to keep our worship free of pagan influence. 





LemiLekySama said:


> My husband got baptized as a Jehovah's Witness in 2012...since then he absolutely WILL NOT compromise on a lot of things, celebrating holidays/birthdays is one of them. I'm not a JW (I believe it is a cult) but I am a Christian, so I celebrate holidays. When it comes to Thanksgiving or Christmas, I'll fly back home to be with family, bc it's absolutely horrible, for me, to not be around family during those times. It amazes me that he claims he doesn't celebrate bc of pagan backgrounds, but he'll do everyday things that have pagan backgrounds and that's ok, bc The Watchtower says it is...for now. Plus, he starts acting all extra weird around this time & he'll start putting in all these extra field service hours/bible study hours. And the only thing him & his JW friends will talk about is how lucky they are to have "The Truth" & not indulge in Pagan things...kinda like they feel sad or guilty about something. We don't have kids, so, thankfully, there's no issue of that!


----------



## I am

Let the kids do what they want. If he wants kids to stop this celebration, he can convince over time. Don't take their happiness away.


----------



## Fozzy

Observing Christmas or Easter makes you a pagan about as much as observing Thursday (Thor's Day) or Saturday (Saturn's Day).

It doesn't.


----------



## Hope1964

It's one thing to decide for oneself that things such as Christmas are off limits, but it's quite another to impose those beliefs on an unwilling wife and kids.


----------



## Adelais

MtmMomma,

Our family is Christian, and we have never gone all out celebrating the pagan Christian holidays. We ignored them during the first years of our marriage. As we began having children, they noticed their friends doing Christmas, while we were not.

What we have done is keep the Feasts of the Lord (also called the Jewish feasts) and learned the symbolism in them that points to the Messiah, Jesus, who came and fulfilled some of them. We were celebrating Hanukkah and Passover around the same time everyone else was celebrating Christmas and Easter. We talked about Jesus, a lot during these feasts! Our children's secular and Christian friends wondered if we were Christians or Jews. To put our own children's minds at ease, we gave a Christmas a gift at Christmas, but left the real celebrating for Hanukkah. We gave a "Resurrection gift" on Easter morning, but really celebrated the Passover and Feast of Unleavened bread. 

You have to be careful to not get brainwashed by a Messianic cult leader, and not believe everything that is said, however. Do your own research on the feasts and traditions that go with them, or you will find yourself substituting Christian Paganism for Jewish Rabbinical Tradition, based on Mysticism.

God loves a party, but just make sure that party is not mixing in paganism. Remember what he did to the Israelites when they made that Golden calf and said,"Now let's dedicate to the Lord and have a feast to the Lord." He destroyed them. Dedicating a pagan thing to God does not make it holy, or fool God.

It is a lot of work to really know what you are doing and why you are doing it (researching if the tradition/ritual is biblical, or is it Rabbinical traditional based on mysticism?) but we were very blessed by celebrating the feasts...and there were plenty to observe, and which point to Christ, or correspond to things that happened later in Christianity. We are doing them less now, and our children have begun asking if we can celebrate them again. They were very rich in meaning and tradition.


----------



## violet37

I'm sure the OP has long since abandoned this thread, but just in case she returns, I wanted to give my personal experience with this.
My older siblings were young children when our dad decided that there would no longer be secular celebrations of Christmas and Easter. He and my mother had always been devout Christians, but for various reasons, no longer wanted any part of trees, easter eggs hunts, etc. This was upsetting to my siblings, and to my mother to a degree, but they did acclimate. They also didn't deny participation at events at school and with family, so that they weren't isolated. As for myself, i didn't understand why we didn't have a tree like all my friends did, but it wasn't really that big a deal.
Fast forward to when we all became adults with our own families, we are all still in the Christian faith, but half of us went into different denominations. We all also celebrate the birth of Jesus and his resurrection, and we ALL decorate for Christmas. One of the most special moments that I have with my son, is when we decorate our tree and tell the stories behind all the ornaments. My son knows the tree is not the real meaning of Christmas, but it is a fun, special walk down memory lane that we do every year.
Talk to your children, and if you must, celebrate a little on your own. Your husband will put on his big boy pants, and "get over it". For example, my mother and I would decorate eggs after Easter was over. Just for fun


----------



## violet37

I neglected to get to my point..

Not having a tree isn't worth breaking up a family, but there has to be some compromise to acclimate the children.

I did want to add, that i can't help but to scoff at those that suddenly want to make all these changes because they think the end is coming and they want to score extra brownie points. It's like trying to lose 20 lbs for that class reunion that's a month away. The end was coming soon according to my dad 40 years ago. that's why he made those changes. Read your bible and love your family. That's what we all need to be doing.


----------



## Wolf9

My family celebrates cultural aspects of religion (Hinduism or Pagan religion as per abrahamic faiths) like various festivals even though most of family members are agnostic. In my opinion these events are more important than theology that particular religion offers. Cultural aspect of religions while growing up plays important role in emotional development of children.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

MtnMomma said:


> Last year, my husband stated that he no longer wanted our family participating in Halloween, Christmas (no tree, tell the kids there is no Santa), no Easter, because it is pagan. Now please understand that we have celebrated and enjoyed all of these fully up to this point. *His reasoning is that he believes the end-times for this earth are upon us- in our lifetime.* He is very intelligent, and has always been "aware" of the signs of the end times, but feels that it is to be soon, and wants to make sure our family isn't doing anything to keep us from being saved. He believes that Christmas, the Christmas Tree, Santa, Halloween, and Easter are pagan, and was adamant about not participating in them any longer.


And there is your answer. He is a doomsday prepper. He's trying to ready himself and his family for the end of days.

There is no reasoning with people who are like this. You can stay and accept their view or leave. His views will probably only get crazier as he feels the end getting nearer, so be prepared for new levels of his way or the highway.

If it were me, I'd grab the kids and RUN!!!!


----------



## turnera

I make Halloween as fun as I possibly can at my house (I create a spooky area, dress in all black, hide in the corner) just to do my part to fight the ridiculous Bible Belt attempts at bribing kids away from the oh-so-horrible holiday with their free parties.


----------



## Mr. Nail

Looks like we made it through another year without the end coming. I'll still plant trees and buy green bananas.

MN


----------



## Mr B

"His reasoning is that he believes the end-times for this earth are upon us- in our lifetime. He is very intelligent"

If he believes these fairy tales he is definitely NOT intelligent, far from it.


----------



## turnera

meh, in our house we treasured Santa Claus for the fun he brings and worshiped God at the church. Worked for us. Nobody got confused, nobody was harmed, nobody lost faith because of it. In fact, every single one of my DD24's charitable functions have been church-based. And she still gets a present from Santa every year, and loves it.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

This is an old thread.

But I see doctrinal errors in the H as well as lack of faith in him. 

but I doubt OP is coming back to this thread.


----------



## minebeloved

Are you all going to celebrate the Jewish holidays then?


----------



## CuddleBug

This also will be our first year not decorating and celebrating the pagan Christmas holiday. I too was raised on all this and decorating like crazy but not anymore. This is year of new beginnings for Mrs.CuddleBug and I. We no longer celebrate the Easter Bunny, Ground Hog Day, and especially Halloween. All are pagan and witchcraft in origin. Anyone who is Christian, is not to partake in these practices and we are to come out and away from them. That's actually in the Bible.


I haven't got this perfectly nailed but overall, this is what I came up with:


CHRISTMAS

-	Gifts and Santa claus, not Jesus
-	Constantine combined Christian doctrine with Paganism
-	Catholic church believes they can pray over satanic symbols making them holy and used in services
-	Winter Solstice burning of Yule Log (Dec 21 – 22 Yule)
-	Human sacrifices on Samhain, Halloween believed accepted by the Gods
-	Burning log represents human sacrifices by the druids
-	Catholic church changed winter solstice to December 25 and renamed it Christ-mas
-	Latin. Christi means Christ and word Mas means Mass
-	Christ-Mas literally means death of Christ
-	December 25 is Saturnalia, Romans, for excessive drinking and all out orgies
-	Also known as Babylon, birthday of Tammuz, declared Nimrod, evil ruler of that city, reincarnated as a child, born of a virgin, through his mother/wife Semaramis
-	Jesus not born on December 25
-	We are told not to celebrate Jesus’s birth
-	His disciples didn’t worship Jesus’s birth either
-	Only what he did for us on the cross and his physical death
-	December in the middle east is the rainy season
-	October to April, sheep confined in the corrals
-	No shepherds in the fields watching over their sheep in December
-	December 25 birth date of Son of God to coincide with birth of the sun god worshipped by the pagans
-	Egypt, son of Egyptian Queen of the heavens, ISIS said to be born during Winter Solstice
-	Ancient Babylon, ruthless dictator Nimrod, married his mother Semiramis
-	When he died, mother burned his body and said he would rise and be reincarnated as a baby
-	Nimrod declared his mother The Queen of Heaven
-	Jesus born near Spring or early Summer


CHRISTMAS TREE

-	Tree in paganism is a phallic symbol representing worship of male sex organ
-	Egypt palm tree Baal Tamar
-	Rome fir tree Baal Berith
-	For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest the work of the hands of the workman, with an ax. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. Jeremiah 10: 3 – 4
-	Candles in windows to guide spirits to you, Samhain, for loved ones that have passed away
-	Druids believed their gods reside in the tree


Santa Claus

-	4th century catholic bishop named Saint Nicholas
-	Began cult of Saint Nicholas, religious movement
-	During middle ages, St Nicholas was invoked in prayer more than all except Virgin Mary and Jesus
-	Legend and folklore said he performed many miracles
-	Rescued three girls from prostitution
-	Resurrected bodies or murdered and mutilated boys by sadistic innkeeper
-	Gave gifts to the poor
-	Santa legend appears in Netherlands 17th century
-	Dutch children placed shoes by the fireplace on Dec 05 for the bishop, they call Sinter Klass
-	Passed magically from housetop to housetop entering through chimneys
-	Tradition brought to America by Dutch settlers in 1626
-	Name took Anglicized form of Santa Claus
-	Americans had a controversy over whether he was a saint and actually existed
-	Changed character figure with red uniform, balled stocking and cap, magical sleigh, flying reindeer, magic present bag, morphing powers (shape changing)
-	Santa Claus was riding a white horse, then the sleigh and reindeer later
-	1969 Pope Paul VI officially decrees the feast of saint Nicholas removed from the roman calendar
-	Traits of Santa came from Norse mythology
-	Sinter Klass adopted by English speaking majority under Santa Claus
-	Kindly old man united with old Nordic folktales of a magician who punished naughty children and rewarded good children with presents
-	Norse God called Thor, is the Yule God
-	Same physical traits as Santa Claus, his element was fire and the God of thunder and lightening
-	That’s why one of the Christmas colors is red
-	5Th day of the week, named after Thor, called Thursday or Thors day by the Romans
-	Thors symbol was the hammer, carpenter, same as Santa Claus
-	Thors helpers were imps and fairy like creatures, who were skilled craftsmen
-	Fairies, imps, elves were not cute little creatures, they were feared creatures
-	Santa wearing crown of thorns with halo
-	Halo represents the sun and crown of thorns is a mockery of Jesus
-	Asia minor Santa was a common name for Nimrod
-	Fire god who came down chimneys of the ancient pagans, same fire god to whom infants were burned in human sacrifice
-	Washington Irving in 1809 deemed him, jolly st. nick
-	Old Nick is the nickname for the devil in many countries around the world
-	Rearranging letters are called anagrams
-	Lucas and Lucis are New Age code words for Lucifer
-	New Age is really Old Age Witchcraft
-	Santa Claus
-	Satan Lucifer = one and the same being
-	Santa = Satan
-	Claus = Lucas


Christmas Wreath

-	Peace sign is anti Christ witchcraft symbol adopted by secular society
-	When entering witchcraft, you are given a cross, turn it upside down, break the ends down, symbolizing the break from all Christianity
-	Upside down broken cross of a three point crows foot, powerful spell casting symbol
-	Circular, in pagan and witchcraft practices, circle is a fertility symbol and represents female womb
-	Known as circle of life
-	Celtic tradition, represents wheel of the year
-	Made of evergreen, holly, pine cones, represents their god and goddess of Yule


Mistletoe

-	Is parasitic and poisonous to trees and plants
-	Really means poop on a branch
-	Believed bird dropping on branches would get them to grow
-	France reason mistletoe is poisonous because it was growing on a tree that was used to make the cross on which Jesus was crucified
-	It was cursed and denied a place to live and grow on earth, forever to be a parasite
-	Viking believed it had power to raise the dead
-	Resurrection of Balder, god of the summer sun
-	Druids believed it could perform miracles, from fertility to healing diseases and protection from spells and curses.
-	Cut it off oak trees in special ceremony five days after the new moon following the winter solstice
-	Used special white cloth on the ground, so it wouldn’t hit the ground and get contaminated
-	Druids sacrificed two white bulls while prayers were spoken
-	Druid priest then gives out pieces of this plant and they believe they were protected from evil spirits and storms
-	Kiss under it because druids used red berries as an aphrodeisiac, believed as sexual symbol
-	Related to Roman festival Saturnatia
-	Form of divination, burn it to see if woman has good marriage life or not
-	Kiss under it with berries, no berries left, then bad luck
-	Santa flew on a white horse in 19th century
-	1821 transformed into reindeer
-	8 magical reindeer used by Santa
-	Reindeer are horned animals and represent the horned god Pan, stag God
-	In Satanism, number eight means new beginnings


Its very humbling and eye opening to see how far the world for been led astray....


----------



## CuddleBug

Two things that tell us we are in the end times.



(01) All the tribes of Israel had to come back together and they did after WW2, forming the nation Israel in 1948.


(02) Jerusalem had to be retaken by Israel and it was during the 6 day war in 1967. 

All the surrounding Muslim countries got together and did a massive surprise attack to wipe Israel off the map. At first they were winning but then Israel got the upper hand and beat them all back, took new territory and Russia called the UN and told them, stop Israel or we will attack, WW3. The UN stopped Israel from expanding further and to this very day, that's were we are and the Muslim countries would like nothing better than to wipe Israel off the map.


The generation that's alive when Israel retakes Jerusalem will not pass away until they've seen the end of all things. That means everything and Jesus' return in the end.


So what is known as the rapture could happen now, months, years, or decades from now. Like a thief in the night and no one knows the day or the hour.


There are those who believe and those who laugh and say we're nuts. When it does happen, those who are left behind will no longer be laughing.


I say, live you lives the best you can in peace and don't freak out. What happens will happen.


To be saved, just believe in Christ on the cross.....John 3:16 and that's it.


----------



## turnera

Ha, that's funny. I can't wait for your kids to grow up and walk away from you and your wife's extreme views and you to sit there wondering why. I still remember my neighbor's two kids sitting at their window sills, watching ALL THE KIDS in the neighborhood running around having the time of their lives in costumes and running from house to house getting candy - funnily enough NOT getting indoctrinated into witchhood - on Halloween. All the kids wanted was to get to dress up and have fun and eat candy. Oh the horrors. In all my 56 years, I've never heard of a single person ever turning away from Christianity, and/or becoming a pagan, because of Halloween, Christmas, or the Easter Bunny. It's ludicrous.


----------



## soccermom2three

I am sooo pagan.


----------



## CuddleBug

If you are a God fearing man or woman, you are not supposed to participate in these pagan / witchcraft based holidays and events. You are to be separate and away from them.

If you aren't a God fearing man or woman, do whatever you want. Not a problem.

I too have thought about the kids factor......and you know what, I knew some when I was in elementary school that didn't partake in these holidays and events and I didn't understand why at the time, but now I do. I didn't think any less of them, just wondered why.

If you knew the true origin and meaning of Halloween, you wouldn't go near it with a 100 foot stick, its that bad. But again, its all our choices in life. Right?

Do what's fun, sweet, tastes good, enjoyable, no matter what, right? Who cares what it really means and what their true origins are, right?

I remember doing the costumes and Santa, decorations, all of that as a kid. I asked my Dad recently, about what I learned......and he did agree with me......but since no one ever talked to him about it before, he never did anything, he read about it and now he and mom do.

Not smoking, drugs, drinking, etc. makes you a boring person? No, you are choosing to follow what God has told us is a sin and not to do. Many other fun things you can do, and the sky is the limit.

Being Christian means not doing what secular pagan society deems as cool, and fun. Being a Christian means trying to follow God's commands and not ignore them, making excuses and getting angry.

Participating in these secular events doesn't make you a pagan, a witch, etc. very true and leave Christianity. But being a Christian does mean to try and follow what God has commanded us, instead of going with the secular flow....


----------



## CuddleBug

HALLOWEEN

-	Samhain, human sacrifices occur
-	Highest celebrated day for witchcraft and Satanists
-	Kids love it for getting candy
-	Night of fear, people like to celebrate fear
-	Darker side to Halloween, not just costumes and candy
-	Celtic religion, wales, scottland, ireland
-	Celts worshipped many different gods and goddesses
-	They believed in magic, spirits of the dead returning, practiced witchcraft, seeing spells and looked to omens to see their future
-	Celts so afraid of druids, their high priests, they even give their lives to them
-	Priests used oak staffs, knows as might men of oak
-	Believed they contained magical powers
-	Practiced human sacrifices as homage to their gods for favors
-	Sacrifices made on Samhain (Yule), night when spirits of the dead rose from their graves and walked the land
-	So scared of this, the celts dressed like the risen spirits to trick them to blend in
-	The priests on Samhain would go across the country and demand a sacrifice be made
-	Get the youngest child of the household to be placed in chains on a post outside the house
-	If the sacrifice was acceptable, young enough, innocent enough, they would carve a grotesque face in a turnip, not a pumpkin because turnips are common, on the porch of that house
-	Pumpkins weren’t used until they came to the United States
-	Carved face on turnip tells the roaming spirits that everyone in that house is safe
-	If the husband and wife didn’t give up their youngest child to the priests, a pentagram drawn in goats blood on the front door / porch
-	Someone in that house would die that night, probably out of fear
-	This is where trick or treat comes from
-	Has nothing to do with going door to door for candy
-	Has to do with child sacrifices
-	Peer pressure from school is bad and make fun of those who don’t participate in Halloween
-	People don’t want to hear the truth
-	Once you hear the truth, you are now accountable and what you do with it
-	Stonehenge, no one really knows what it’s about but sacrifices have been found there by past and present day druids
-	Druids stand in a circle, use mistletoe, on Halloween, believe energy comes down into the stones, into the center and they use this energy
-	Every year, September thru Nov 01, this tradition of offering the sacrifices continues
-	Increased child abductions and shootings
-	Amber alerts during maibaun, gathering of sacrifices, for samhain
-	Halloween to fascinate, lure, captivate our children to desire to be something else
-	Magic and occultism is on the rise, first kids and now adults
-	Christians and other faiths are mesmerized by the occult
-	Told to embrace all religions, witchcraft and Satanism are religions
-	On the surface, it seems fun and innocent
-	Aspects of Halloween, ghosts, gouls, witches, devils, haunted houses, monsters, hell night
-	Hebrews 9:27 And as it I appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.
-	No ghosts roaming around, no second chance
-	Ghosts are framiliar demonic spirits around you 24/7, they know everything about you, they communicate to other ghosts and know so much
-	It’s not past relatives, husband, wife, someone you knew
-	Gouls are half dead alive known as zombies
-	Witchcraft, primarily female, in covens, use real potions, charms, spells
-	Devils are fallen angels, no longer have angelic status falling from heaven
-	Haunted houses, inhabited by spirits of the dead, demonic attacks occur
-	Evils deeds, murder, abuse, torture, summoned to be there, ouija board, tarot cards, crystal balls, all attract demons like a magnet
-	There are those who literally worships satan, make a contract with him, give them fame, fortune and then satan calls on them, when their contract is up
-	Hell night, building huge bone fires to light the way for the spirits, and human sacrifices and how they burned, told the druids if they would have a good year
-	Snap apple, or bobbling for apples, divination, if a boy could snag the apple and bring it up with his teeth, he was assured the love of his desire
-	Divinations, runes, casting stones, scrying used to engage the devil’s assistance in divining the future. Questions about marriage, luck, health, one’s time of death, etc.
-	Witch’s framiliars, owls, bats, cats, toads. Believed Satan takes these forms to aid the witch divining the future
-	Samhain, lord of the dead
-	Observer of times, stargazing and astrology, divination of the supposed influence of stars and heavenly bodies and affairs of nations
-	Enchanter, one who hypnotizes and controls through his voice by music
-	Witch, one who practices the ancient craft and uses magic, spells, potions and hexes to promote herself
-	Charmer, uses objects, jewelry, to cast spells over others and control their mind
-	Consulter with framiliar spirits, one who has spirit guides giving them counsel and advice in their affairs
-	Wizard, skilled in magical arts, summon and cast spells
-	Necromancer, one who summons the dead to get information
-	God detests all these things, an abomination


Isn't Halloween great?


----------



## turnera

Yes it is! Thank you for recognizing that!

It's children's favorite holiday, and even the favorite of many adults, who enjoy DRESSING UP AND HAVING FUN.

Nobody is being 'turned' to the devil. Hardly anyone even knows more than a sentence or two about those oh-so-horrible facts you throw out.


----------



## Ikaika

So much easier to be an atheist


----------



## turnera

What does that have to do with a kid getting to dress up in a fun costume and run from house to house getting the one thing kids like most - candy? Where's the 'falling from God' in that? The only kids thinking about falling from God at that point are the ones sitting in their homes watching all the other kids outside having fun, and not understanding why 'their' God makes it evil.


----------



## Personal

foolscotton3 said:


> Nobody is being turned to the devil, just turned away from God!
> 
> The Gospel of Christ is "grace: unmerited favor," The gospel of Santa Claus is merited favor.
> 
> Of course its more appealing to believe you earned Gods favor, rather than believing He loves you in spite of your failures.
> 
> That's why religion is so appealing, you earned it like a slave. You worked off that debt, indulge your pleasures.
> 
> Christianity is so in appealing, because you earn nothing, God earned it, and in spite of your sin, He wants to share the reward, if you only quit trying to earn it yourself and TRUST Him 100%. If you trust yourself 1%, you don't trust God enough to be a believer. That's why Christ says, take up your cross, surrender, consider yourself dead to your cause, GIVE UP, and follow me.
> 
> I don't think the liberty of Christianity is meant to be enjoyed, its meant to free you from this fallen world's traditions, and enjoy uncorruptible word.
> 
> Adultery seems fun, exciting, and filled with pleasure, but that doesn't make it right, its the same for idolatry...
> 
> Marriage is a type, a shadow, or an example, of God's relationship to man... Sex is a type/example of what worship should be. How does it feel when your cheated on, that's how God feels when you worship man made characters, or dead people, or statues of dead people. If your christian your cheating... if your not, well then your just heathen. I guess your not offending God since your not in a covenant with him, He is disappointed just as you would be to witness somebody else's affair, but he isn't grieved to the heart, cause you aren't His.





Ikaika said:


> So much easier to be an atheist


Yep!


----------



## Personal

foolscotton3 said:


> So much easier to be single too.


Though I don't share your sentiment, I just want to say I am impressed by your response.


----------



## EleGirl

foolscotton3 said:


> The Gospel of Christ is "grace: unmerited favor," The gospel of Santa Claus is merited favor.


Beyond ridiculous.. there is no "gospel of Santa Claus"

Some people


----------



## EleGirl

foolscotton3 said:


> I "Presbyterian/Christian" used to buy into the superficial elements of Christmas and Easter. Then after having my first child questioned how my traditions will effect the raising of my child.
> 
> A lot of what your husband is teaching you is correct, that these "holiday icons" have pagan origins. Easter bunny is an obvious one, BUT, he is grossly misinformed on Santa Claus. "Santa" is a Latin word for "Holy," "Claus" is Latin for "guise, disguise," the history is that Nicolas, a wealthy bishop used the entirety of his inheritance to buy food and gifts for young children who were forced into prostitution by their parents for family income. He choose to use the disguise so that God wold be glorified for his charity instead of taking the glory onto himself.
> 
> Nicolas himself would find it repugnant that you teach your children to praise and worship an idol rather than Christ, the whole purpose was to give glory to Christ.
> 
> Anything that takes the place of GOD is considered an idol, and it seems pretty demonic that we have twisted one of the best witnesses of Gods love and grace into an idol for our children to worship in song and praise, on Christ's day.


No one worships Santa Claus. 

Claus is not Latin for "guise" or "disguise"



*verbs *

dissimulo - disguise, pretend, ignore, conceal, hide, dissemble 

concelo - cover, veil, screen, shroud, cloak, disguise 


*nouns* 

fucus - drone, disguise, seaweed, red paint, red color, purple color 

persona - person, mask, personality, character, individual, disguise 

dissimulatio - dissimulation, dissembling, concealment, disguise, disguising, hypocrisy 

obtentus - pretense, pretext, cloaking, stretch, stretching, disguise 

celo, celare, celavi, celatus, dissimulo, integumentum, personatus, fūcōsus, praetexo


----------



## CuddleBug

After I learned that the holidays are pagan and witchcraft in origin and obviously have nothing to do with Jesus, Christianity and faith, made me really rethink what I've done most of my life......without questioning or thinking about it.

The facts are facts. No sugar coating them.

My wife and I don't decorate and celebrate pagan witchcraft holidays anymore. Our choice. Doesn't mean we ignore our friends and family who do for the holidays. We show them the respect they do for us and enjoy being with them, no matter how they decorate their homes, their choice.

Being Christian means not doing what secular pagan society deems as cool, and fun. Being a Christian means trying to follow God's commands and not ignore them, making excuses and getting angry.

Participating in these secular events doesn't make you a pagan, a witch, etc. very true and leave Christianity. But being a Christian does mean to try and follow what God has commanded us, instead of going with the secular flow....and ignoring what he's told us.


----------



## CuddleBug

If the household is not primarily Christian and you raised the kids to participate in Halloween, Easter Bunny, Christmas - Santa Claus, etc. that's a big mistake and not going to work if you suddenly take this all away.

Either you are Christian, the household and raise the kids to be Christians and then they know about these pagan witchcraft based holidays, or you don't.

Can't force non believing household to give this all up or a believing household to partake in these holidays.

That's not fair either way.


----------



## EleGirl

CuddleBug said:


> After I learned that the holidays are pagan and witchcraft in origin and obviously have nothing to do with Jesus, Christianity and faith, made me really rethink what I've done most of my life......without questioning or thinking about it.
> 
> The facts are facts. No sugar coating them.
> 
> My wife and I don't decorate and celebrate pagan witchcraft holidays anymore. Our choice. Doesn't mean we ignore our friends and family who do for the holidays. We show them the respect they do for us and enjoy being with them, no matter how they decorate their homes, their choice.
> 
> Being Christian means not doing what secular pagan society deems as cool, and fun. Being a Christian means trying to follow God's commands and not ignore them, making excuses and getting angry.
> 
> Participating in these secular events doesn't make you a pagan, a witch, etc. very true and leave Christianity. But being a Christian does mean to try and follow what God has commanded us, instead of going with the secular flow....


I have a different point of few.

When I do things like decorate a tree, I'm not practicing any pagan ritual. To be practicing a pagan ritual I'd have to be thinking that pagans thought about this.

A tree is just a decoration. It has on religious meaning. I also like to make a nice centerpiece on my table with flower, pine branches, candles, etc. 


In the OT there are many verses like this....

Leviticus 19:27 "Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard."

The purpose of these laws/rules were to differentiate the Jewish people from the worshipers of Ra. The worshipers of RA cut their hair at their temples.. even if they had long hair. The worshipers of RA also cut their beards on the sides to create the short, rectangular beard that we see in a lot of ancient Egyptian art.

But today Jews and Christians do cut their hair at the temple and not only cut their beard at the edges... completely shave them off. (except for the most fundamental sects) They do it because there is no need anymore to not do it... the number of people who worship RA today are near zero, if not zero. There is no need to day to teach people to be different from pagan RA worshipers.

If you want to take everything that pagans, "witches", etc did in the past as something that you must not do.. even when it has no meaning to you... you better no cut your hair or trim/shave your beard any more.

You also need to wear cloaks with tassels and to a whole lot more things that make no senses today.

We can take almost any action that a human does and find some pagan/witch thing that can be applied to it. Every single day of the year has some pagan/witch meaning that can be applied to it. But these have no meaning to those who are not practicing pagans/witches.

We have freedom of religion. Anyone can practice any darn thing they want. But I have an issue with people who twist and fabricate things to try to make others guilty of things they do not do.

I don't worship Santa Claus. I don't worship trees or gods who live in trees. But I do enjoy the fun of Santa and Christmas trees.


----------



## EleGirl

CuddleBug said:


> If the household is not primarily Christian and you raised the kids to participate in Halloween, Easter Bunny, Christmas - Santa Claus, etc. that's a big mistake and not going to work if you suddenly take this all away.
> 
> Either you are Christian, the household and raise the kids to be Christians and then they know about these pagan witchcraft based holidays, or you don't.
> 
> Can't force non believing household to give this all up or a believing household to partake in these holidays.
> 
> That's not fair either way.


Hundreds of millions of Christian participate in these holidays. If you don't want to, that's your choice. You are way out of line judging the faith of others.


----------



## EleGirl

"The real St. Nick wasn't a fat, pale, and rosy-cheeked jolly fella. He was quite the opposite. 

Born almost 300 years after Christ, Saint Nicholas was a darker complected Greek holy man who became bishop of a small town called Myra (now present-day Turkey). Sure, he probably had jolly good days, but his reputation was of a more serious nature: He was described as a firebrand and staunch defender of Christian doctrine and spent years in prison for refusing to reject his faith during religious persecution. 

Portrayed as a bearded bishop in canonical robes, Saint Nicholas's feast day is celebrated on the anniversary of his death, December 6th. His strong faith created a lasting legacy among the saints, and as such, two main stories planted the seed that would — many centuries later — bring about the fat, bearded man in a red suit bearing gifts to young children.

What were those two stories? The first reinforced Saint Nicholas's reputation as protector of the poor. Legend has it that he saved three impoverished daughters from a life of prostitution by providing for their dowries. He offered three bags of gold for the young women, of which he tossed through an open window. The bags of gold landed into socks that were left near the chimney to dry."

http://www.biography.com/news/st-nicholas-santa-claus-origin-story


----------



## EleGirl

foolscotton3 said:


> I "Presbyterian/Christian" used to buy into the superficial elements of Christmas and Easter. Then after having my first child questioned how my traditions will effect the raising of my child.
> 
> A lot of what your husband is teaching you is correct, that these "holiday icons" have pagan origins. Easter bunny is an obvious one, BUT, he is grossly misinformed on Santa Claus. "Santa" is a Latin word for "Holy," "Claus" is Latin for "guise, disguise," .....


You are making a very common mistake.. thinking that language/words used in the USA are what the rest of the world uses and that they go back to history centries ago.

The Dutch (Dutch/German origin) called St. Nicholas Sint Nikolaas, or Sinter Klaas. The name "Klass" is a nick name for "Nikolass". You know like how "Frank" is a nick name for "Franklin", "Tom" for "Thomas", and so on.

When they came to America, they shortened it to Sint Kolaas. Then it was further Americanized to Santa Claus. "Claus" is the phonetic Americanization of "Kolass".

Outside the USA St. Nicholas has different names not using "Kolass" or "Claus"

Country............Name
Belgium...........Pere Noel
Brazil...............Papai Noel
Chile................Viejo Pascuero (“Old Man Christmas”)
China...............Dun Che Lao Ren (“Christmas Old Man”)
Netherlands......Kerstman
Finland.............Joulupukki 
France..............Pere Noel
Germany..........Weihnachtsmann (“Christmas Man”)
Hawaii..............Kanakaloka
Hungary...........Mikulas (St. Nicholas)
Italy................Babbo Natale, or Papa Natale (both mean "Father Christmas"
Japan...............Hoteiosho (a god or priest who bears gifts)
Norway............Julenissen (“Christmas gnome”)
Poland.............Swiety Mikolaj (St. Nicholas)
Russia.............Ded Moroz (“Grandfather Frost”)


----------



## CuddleBug

EleGirl said:


> Hundreds of millions of Christian participate in these holidays. If you don't want to, that's your choice. You are way out of line judging the faith of others.



I did the research and I know what is what.

If hundreds of millions of people jump up and down, off a bridge......you will do the same? Awesome.

Christians have been told not to participate in these pagan events by God from the Bible. If Christians actually know this, and still practice it anyway, they aren't following what God has told them.

We have been told to come out and be separate......so if millions ignore this, their choice.

I'm not judging anyone, but God will.


----------



## CuddleBug

If you know the origins of these pagan holidays, why as a Christian partake in them?

Over time, we have sugar coated it, tastes better, looks nicer, etc. to the point no one really knows or even cares were all these pagan holidays came from and what they truly mean. We just practice them and its all fun.....ignorance is bliss.

I never knew the true origins of these pagan witchcraft holidays and I participated in them blindly.......because everyone else did. Now I know the true origins and what they really mean and I no longer participate of them in our household. I am actually following what God told us, to come out and be separate......


----------



## turnera

IDK, my H and I are Christians and raised our daughter a Christian and we are able to both do a lot in the name of Christianity and enjoy our society's holidays and traditions. As I've said, her believing in Santa Claus, us giving her Christmas presents, has had NO effect on her being a Christian, and she chooses Christian-based charities to volunteer with. Feel free to deny your own children the life that 95% of their peers live so that they forever feel different. As you said, your choice. Just stop telling us that your way is the 'right' way. Don't forget, most people on earth aren't even Christians; and they are just as good and deserving as we are.


----------



## turnera

EleGirl said:


> You are making a very common mistake.. thinking that language/words used in the USA are what the rest of the world uses and that they go back to history centries ago.


And let's not even get started on how the Bible wasn't even written for 3 centuries and MORE after Jesus died, and the different geographical factions FOUGHT political fights over which pieces would be included in the Bible, and even which parts were TRUE, and even then, it was written by hand, in a language that's been translated 2 times before it came to modern English. And let's not even talk about what the King James version did to the Bible for political reasons. I have to laugh when people quote King James Bible as though it's the absolute final word on things. Take me back to the castles 1800 years ago when they were discussing how to put the Bible together, and if they said exactly what King James says, I'll come back and apologize for dismissing it. Until then, I'll believe in the INTENT of God's word. It's served us pretty well.


----------



## CuddleBug

Majority of Christians don't know the true origins of these pagan holidays nor do they care to. 

Once the truth is known, they get angry and continue to practice them anyway.

I too participated in these pagan holidays as a kid. Didn't make me evil, pagan, etc. so very true. But as an adult, I know what the true origins of them are now and I chose to follow God's word and be separate from it. 

Doesn't mean I'm ignoring all my friends and other families that do partake in these holidays. I still see them, and we have great gatherings. It's their houses and their customs and I respect that. But in our house, we follow to be separate and no more pagan holidays and decorating for reasons I never realized until recently. Eye opener for sure.

I'm not judging anyone or looking down on anyone that practices these pagan holidays.

If 95% of those who believe don't know the true origins of these pagan holidays, doesn't make it right. Majority means nothing to God. It's following his word or not. In the end, majority of the planet will not believe or follow God's word when Jesus returns anyway. It will be that bad.

Soddem and Ghemorrah, entire city was sexually sinful and corrupt. Only one family followed God's word....Lot and they were spared while the entire city was destroyed. Actually found the city, it was destroyed by a nearby volcano, with liquid faction and that was proved in the strata layers.

The bible was starting to be written only 30 - 40 years roughly after Jesus was crucified. Not 3+ hundred years. I've research that one as well. If it was written 3+ hundred years later, the desciples would of been long dead and no one would have accurate personal recordings like they did after Jesus was crucified.

I've also dived into why certain books were not in the Bible. Because they were gnostic and false, later proven that was the case. I remember looking into that.

Everyone has to do what they are comfortable with and this is my first year not celebrating pagan witchcraft based holidays. Kind of liberating if you ask me. No more hustle and bustle, running around, gifts, materialism, who has the best decorations, lights and trees, none have anything to do with Jesus.

God tells us not to drink and get drunk. So if 95% of believers drink and get drunk on the holidays, does that then make it right and because its been that way now for centuries? No.

Helping those in need, working at food banks, donating items anonymously, all are good to do.

If Jesus returned today, he would be in the food banks, helping build houses for the poor, he was a carpenter, assisting those on the streets, that's what he would be doing. He would not be decorating Christmas trees, celebrating Halloween, Easter Bunny, dressing as Santa Claus, etc.


There is a Bible verse when Jesus was alive........way back then about Christmas trees:

*“Learn not the way of the nations, nor be dismayed at the signs of the heavens because the nations are dismayed at them, for the customs of the peoples are vanity. A tree from the forest is cut down and worked with an axe by the hands of a craftsman. They decorate it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so that it cannot move. Their idols are like scarecrows in a cucumber field, and they cannot speak; they have to be carried, for they cannot walk. Do not be afraid of them, for they cannot do evil, neither is it in them to do good.”*


----------



## EleGirl

CuddleBug said:


> I did the research and I know what is what.


I’ve studied these topics extensively. What you and a few others have posted is mostly nonsense that twists the truth of history and religion. I’m not interested in a long, blow by blow argument on these topics. You have read the disinformation and swallowed it whole. That’s your business. 

The only reason I’m posting on this thread is in the hope that no one takes the disinformation posted here at face value. Now if they want to discuss it I will as long as it can be discussed without hate and gross negativety.



CuddleBug said:


> If hundreds of millions of people jump up and down, off a bridge......you will do the same? Awesome.


Yes, and if millions of people want to believe the disintormatoin posted on hate websites about things like this.. Awesome.



CuddleBug said:


> Christians have been told not to participate in these pagan events by God from the Bible. If Christians actually know this, and still practice it anyway, they aren't following what God has told them.


Do you cut your hair? Do you shave or trim your beard? Do you eat pork or seafood?

To participate in a pagan event, one must believe in the ritual and believe that it has power. 99.9999999999999999999% of the people who do the fun traditions on these holidays don’t believe they have any power. 

You can do whatever you want. Trying to shame people who are doing what they want it wrong and not your place.



CuddleBug said:


> We have been told to come out and be separate......so if millions ignore this, their choice.
> I'm not judging anyone, but God will.


Yes you are judging. Not only that, you know that to a fundamentalist, saying that God will judge is a threat.


----------



## CuddleBug

I am not Jewish, I am a gentile.

Cutting ones hair doesn't mean anything. Hair is dead cells anyway. Jesus couldn't care less about your hair style or clothes you wear.

Do you follow God's word, what he tells you not to do or focus on cutting your hair and pagan holidays?

I've chatted with individuals who were in Satanism okay. They know what these holidays are really about. The world has been dumbed down, to the point we have no clue and celebrate them regardless.

If the Bible tells us not to follow the customs of the nations, cut down trees and decorate them, in vain, etc. I know, lets still have Christmas trees. And that was thousands of years ago too.

If God tells us to come out and be separate from the nations, not to participate in these holidays, I know, lets say we still are Christians and do so.

I chose to do the right thing and try to follow God' word. Many make excuses, talk their way out of it and do not.

You cannot serve two masters. Either Jesus or Santa Claus.

I feel like a weight has been lifting off my shoulders and liberated from these pagan, non Christian holidays. Feels really good.


----------



## EleGirl

turnera said:


> And let's not even get started on how the Bible wasn't even written for 3 centuries and MORE after Jesus died,


The books of the New Testament were written between 44 and 96 AD. The word bible comes from bibliotheca, meaning library. The Bible is a library of books, a collection. 

For centuries after the death of Jesus, Christian wrote a hundreds of scriptures. They were copied and passes around to the parishes. Over time a small set of them came to be considered the most inspired. These were collected and put into the Latin Vulgate Bible, which became canon in c. 383 in the Western Church (Catholic). The Eastern Church as a different canon (slightly different set of books). In the Western church discussion about what belonged in the bible went on for a few hundred more years and was settled in 

The Coptics have a different canon with slightly different set of books. Then a few hundred years later the Protestants decided to remove some books from the Western canon.

Here is an interesting source that discusses the dates and the content of different canons that exist. There are 4 different traditions with 12 different bible configurations.
Biblical canon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


turnera said:


> and the different geographical factions FOUGHT political fights over which pieces would be included in the Bible, and even which parts were TRUE, and even then, it was written by hand, in a language that's been translated 2 times before it came to modern English.


Yes the original text was written by hand. What is interesting is how accurate the copies are. In those days it took a year or more to transcribe all the books of the bible. The men who did it were meticulous.
And yes they were in different ancient languages. Official translations were done by people at the time who know the languages well, so the early translations were excellent. At one time Greek was the language of the learned. When it switched the Church commissioned the translation in Latin. After that the Church would not sanction any further translation for a long time because they were concerned about bad translations. 
Most people I know who really study the Bible don’t just read the modern translations. They go back and look at the earlier copies, and study the meaning of the words at the time the book was written. For example in Genesis it the English translations use the word ‘day’ for the time of creation. The original word that was used had two meanings. Its main meaning was ‘period of time’. But when used in colloquial speaking, people would use it loosely to mean a day. So the translation to “day” is probably wrong. I should not be 7 days. It should be 7 periods of time. Modern science agrees with the 7 periods of time, interestingly.



turnera said:


> And let's not even talk about what the King James version did to the Bible for political reasons. I have to laugh when people quote King James Bible as though it's the absolute final word on things. Take me back to the castles 1800 years ago when they were discussing how to put the Bible together, and if they said exactly what King James says, I'll come back and apologize for dismissing it. Until then, I'll believe in the INTENT of God's word. It's served us pretty well.


I agree 100%.


----------



## turnera

CuddleBug said:


> The bible was starting to be written only 30 - 40 years roughly after Jesus was crucified. Not 3+ hundred years. I've research that one as well. If it was written 3+ hundred years later, the desciples would of been long dead and no one would have accurate personal recordings like they did after Jesus was crucified.


What Ele said.


----------



## meson

EleGirl said:


> You are making a very common mistake.. thinking that language/words used in the USA are what the rest of the world uses and that they go back to history centries ago.
> 
> Hawaii..............Kanakaloka


EleGirl,

There is no Hawaiian version of Santa Claus. It is actually a translation of the American Santa Claus into Hawaiian by the American missionaries. 

The Hawaiians celebrated the Makahiki, a time of peace and games celebrating the god of Lono which is signified by the appearance of the constellation Pleiades which just happens to overlap with the Christmas season. There was no Christmas in Hawaii and Santa Claus until it was introduced by the missionaries. 

The actual reality is that Christians have used their beliefs and supplanted other celebrations with a new focus of Christianity. The purpose was to transform pagan tradition into acceptable Christian tradition. 

The holidays are actually pagan in origin changed by the adoption of Christianity. I find it amusing that Cuddlebug refuses to acknowledge these holidays are celebrated the way they are now because of the Christian rewriting of local traditions to suit their ideals and morals. 

My brother in law is a Bishop in the episcopal church and he used to be like the OP and tried to separate and excise Santa Claus from Christmas. Over the years he has come to recognize that the traditions of Santa Claus (etc.) add to and do not diminish a celebration of Christ. For him it is worship that is the key not what previous people thought that it meant. It is about his and our current intent and worship.


----------



## ConanHub

I am a theologian. Studied the histories and celebrate traditional holidays because they are tradition and fun. Brings communities together and that is fine.

I am not worshipping any gods or other things. I am a devout Christian.

Seriously doubt non Christians are worshipping any god with their Christmas trees.

Traditions are fine and not against scripture. Christians who give thanks and worship other gods are doing wrong.

Christians who have a good time with family and neighbors while eating a little too much and giving gifts are doing no wrong.


----------



## turnera

Ahh, but then you don't get to feel self-righteous.


----------



## meson

turnera said:


> Ahh, but then you don't get to feel self-righteous.


That is exactly the problem with zealots! They are too self absorbed.


----------



## ConanHub

Sometimes I think people really do want to please God but get lost in the details. I think a lot of folks don't have bad intentions when they might be taking something to an extreme.

I am never going to give thanks to or praise and worship to any other than Jesus Christ. In that, I am zealous.

Informing people that their family holiday has pagan origins and trying to pressure them to stop...... don't see how I ought to be zealous about that or even really care.

But people usually don't start out to cause problems. I think they just get a little lost along the way.

Can happen to any of us if we aren't living balanced and healthy.


----------



## CuddleBug

I celebrated these pagan witchcraft based holidays my entire life because its always been that way and everyone does it.

Then I learned the true origins of these holidays from a pagan witchcraft point of view. Not people of faith merging them and to have fun.

In the Bible it even says not to decorate the trees, to be part of it, come out and be separate and not participate in the pagan events.

Just as relevant back then, Jesus's time, as it is today.

When Jesus and his disciples were alive, did they partake in pagan festivities? No. Did they do Christmas trees, decorations, Easter Bunny, Halloween, etc. No. They knew what it was all about.

So if Jesus and the first true Christians didn't do these things, why are we Christians doing them 2000 or so years later?

Does that make them extremists and zealots? No.

Like I said earlier, I know what they really mean now and I'm actually making the effort for the first time to follow God's word in the bible. This will be my first year for doing all of this and Mrs.CuddleBug is totally on board.

I am not preaching in peoples faces, going door to door, nothing at all.

All I'm saying is, as professed Christians, we know better, but still do it anyway......and if Jesus came back today, he would say, come out from it, and be separate. But majority of people today would get angry, call him an extremist and zealot and probably kill him again......


----------



## ConanHub

Read all of Paul. Everything he wrote on religion and faith. His teachings on the law are too extensive to into on a blog.

Do you celebrate the feast of booths? If not, why?


----------



## CuddleBug

Thx and I will read on it.

Jesus and his disciples were persecuted, Jesus nailed to a cross and they all were eventually killed off afterwards.

They were saying the things I have said here and way more and the majority of the peoples got angry, didn't like it or want to change, and it went against their traditions and how its always been.

No different back then compared to what we have today.

People were doing the same things back then, more so than today. Open orgies, sexy with young boys and girls, gladiators to the death. Today, UFC but not to the death, no more open orgies, sex with young boys and girls you go to jail, etc.

*If Jesus tells us certain things are wrong, and we do them anyway, we are in the wrong. Problem is, if we do something long enough and enough peoples do this, it becomes okay. "That goes for anything." Then if you say its wrong, watch how many people get angry and call you names and try to find ways out of it.
*
When I learned what I learned, I didn't get angry, defensive and make excuses. I was taken a step back because I didn't really know. My choice to try and follow God's word, what Jesus said, and I'm not making excuses for myself.

Jesus said to come out from, not participate in these pagan events and traditions, decorations of tree are in vain, etc. But we know better than Jesus?


----------



## norajane

Pagan traditions and celebrations existed at all because humans at that time believed in many different kinds of gods. The seasonal timing of them is natural, because humans' lives were marked by the seasons. 

As humans' beliefs changed from many gods to one God, so evolved their traditions and the meanings behind them. I think even the cross had been a symbol of some sort already long before it was about Christ. 

Anyway, my point is, the meanings behind those ancient traditions and celebrations has evolved into meanings relating to Christianity. (Halloween aside - that's only about fun costumes and candy, for sure!!). Those newer interpretations are _meaningful _to _Christians _now. They _are _celebrating Christianity in a joyous, spirited way by setting up Christmas lights and singing Jingle Bells. Neither their intentions nor their use of the symbols is pagan or polytheistic, but Christian. 

If I believed in Jesus, I'd like to believe in one that said, "Hey, y'all, thanks for all your birthday greetings and wishes! Special shout out to Lincoln Park Zoo in Chicago - you do a great job every year with those giraffe lights! _Thank you for thinking of me! _ I feel so blessed!"


----------



## soccermom2three

Yeah, I don't think Jesus would be getting all judgey.


----------



## Starstarfish

I think the point of this thread though wasn't is modern Christmas evil and do we need to threaten people with Holy smiting for it. The question was if you came to this conclusion and Mrs Cuddlebug wasn't on board, do you have some right to impose the new no holiday policy like some patriarch with no regard for her feelings on the matter.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Starstarfish

Also, I've got to ask is part of this sudden revelation about the pagan nature of holidays and how relieved you are not to participate mean no more Christmas presents or cards?

Do you accept these things from others as their custom but don't reciprocate?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mr.Fisty

I am agnostic, and I celebrate it for the commercial holiday it is. I have my own meaning to Christmas. For me It is a holiday thinking about others, and wanting them to smile as you give them a thoughtful gift. Also, it is the time where I donate time and money to the less fortunate. Winter is a harsh time, and they need the support.

Perhaps you can change the meaning of the holiday.


----------



## Starstarfish

> There is a Bible verse when Jesus was alive........way back then about Christmas trees:
> 
> “Learn not the way of the nations, nor be dismayed at the signs of the heavens because the nations are dismayed at them, for the customs of the peoples are vanity. A tree from the forest is cut down and worked with an axe by the hands of a craftsman. They decorate it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so that it cannot move. Their idols are like scarecrows in a cucumber field, and they cannot speak; they have to be carried, for they cannot walk. Do not be afraid of them, for they cannot do evil, neither is it in them to do good.”


This is a quote from Jeremiah. So saying that's a "Bible verse" from when Jesus was alive is a bit of a fallacy. Also how could Jeremiah be talking about Christmas trees? That practice, "pagan" or otherwise, was never practiced in ancient Judea - there are no appropriate evergreen trees that grow there for use in that kind of custom. Jeremiah is talking in a large context about the production of idols. 

https://www.gci.org/church/holidays/trees

I liken a different verse for my Christmas tree something green and vibrant in a world otherwise cold, and dark, and desolate. 



> There shall come forth a shoot from the stump of Jesse, and a branch from his roots shall bear fruit.


----------



## joe kidd

Deleted


----------



## EleGirl

Jeremiah was born in about 546 BC. So the book of Jeremiah is part of the Old Testament. It did exist at the time Jesus was alive. 

Jeremiah is not condemning Christmas trees. He is condemning idolatry. The trees in Jeremiah 10 are cut down to carve them into worthless idols that will later be decorated with gold and silver. Jeremiah says nothing about Christmas trees. That custom originated in northern Europe, not in ancient Judea.


----------



## Starstarfish

EleGirl said:


> Jeremiah was born in about 546 BC. So the book of Jeremiah is part of the Old Testament. It did exist at the time Jesus was alive.
> 
> Jeremiah is not condemning Christmas trees. He is condemning idolatry. The trees in Jeremiah 10 are cut down to carve them into worthless idols that will later be decorated with gold and silver. Jeremiah says nothing about Christmas trees. That custom originated in northern Europe, not in ancient Judea.


You probably explained that better than I did, lol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Fozzy

I wish the OP had come back to let us know how things turned out.


----------



## ConanHub

foolscotton3 said:


> This statement seems ignorant...
> the flag of Lebanon has an evergreen on it for a reason.


Sigh....

The scripture in Jeremiah is referring to the process for which an idol was made out of wood, illustrating the foolishness of worshipping something made with your own hands out of wood which used to be a tree.

The tradition of the Christmas tree was adopted by Catholic church fathers centuries later. The church fathers were competing with pagan religions that worshipped different deities at different times of year including summer and winter solstice.

There was a practice of going into the woods and decorating trees. The catholic church fathers had developed a practice of absorbing pagan rituals and grafting them, bizarrely, with Christianity to establish a larger power base and bring the pagan worshippers into the church.

Where do Cardinals come from? Did not see them anywhere in the Judeo/Christian bible. The position of cardinal was the result of another grafting of a pagan religion into Catholicism.

It was an interesting study for any interested.

I celebrated traditional American Christmas as a family holiday after finding it's pagan roots. Simply telling my children that it was a family tradition for many and I time to grow close and that every day of the year was good to remember the birth of Jesus the Christ.

I did not try to mix Jesus with Santa Claus but the myth that arose from the actual story is a relatively harmless family tradition. I soon stopped the Santa myth because I wanted my children to know that all their good presents came from a father and mother who loved them. But that is a call that every family has to decide how to navigate.

To me and many other Christians and non, it is simply a fun family tradition. I am full aware of the pagan origins of holidays but I do not worship idols and false gods in the process. There are relatively few who actually know the origins and practice pagan rituals and worship pagan deities.

I have friends that don't celebrate and I don't try to rub it in their face and respect their decisions.

Paul wrote that food that had been sacrificed to idols was fine to purchase cheaply and eat. There was nothing wrong with it but if any brother (Christian) was offended by it, not to feed it to them or even bring it up. There are too many scriptures that Paul wrote but they illustrate what religion, the law and true worship of Jesus looked like.

To the OP of this thread. You would not be disobeying God to stand up to your husband on this respectfully. He is probably doing what he perceives to be best for his family but you are his helpmate and he should always consider your counsel. Do not provide a divided front in the sight of your children.

That would be more harmful than any holiday celebration or not.

But continue to voice your concerns to him in private. Even send him here if you do not feel supported by your church or friends.

I don't advocate beating your husband up on a forum or other venue but having a reasoned conversation can only help.

God bless you and your family.


----------



## EleGirl

foolscotton3 said:


> This statement seems ignorant...
> the flag of Lebanon has an evergreen on it for a reason.


And what do think this reason is?


----------



## turnera

foolscotton3 said:


> I dont think the catholic church did much grafting, its likely the roman empire adopted christian language, rather than "vise versa." Rome had a habit of being whatever it needed to be to stay in control, if the populous converted to Christianity, Rome would become the face of christ.


Actually, it did a TON of grafting. Back then, it was hard to control the populace, there was little government, and little oversight, and the church filled the void. But it found that merely preaching the word did little to affect peasants who cared more about getting enough food to eat than whether they were behaving nobly and with grace. So it did what it had to do, to gain a toehold in the land. If a group believed in a certain way of doing things, in the early days the church wasn't strong enough to just shout "Blaspheme!" and draw people into the church. Centuries later, sure. But back in those days, they worked with the people at _their _level. And if took overlooking a certain this or that going on, well, sometimes it happened.


----------



## ConanHub

foolscotton3 said:


> I dont think the catholic church did much grafting, its likely the roman empire adopted christian language, rather than "vise versa." Rome had a habit of being whatever it needed to be to stay in control, if the populous converted to Christianity, Rome would become the face of christ.


LOL!!!

I was paraphrasing historical accounts and documents.

Everything I mentioned is 100% already proved through historical text and document.

Seriously. You should do a study of the history of the church, from the establishment of Christianity with Jesus as the foundation to the early years afterward all the way to the spread of Christianity to Europe through Rome, past the fall of the Roman empire through branching into Catholicism and the first 5 centuries A.D. It is really fascinating. The origin of cardinals continues to crack me up personally.


----------



## EleGirl

foolscotton3 said:


> Because the land is known for its evergreens, and the evergreens have always been admired by the culture that surrounds them. Anybody that claims the evergreen wasn't native to old testament the geography, to make a straw-man argument against ecumenical context could be dismissed easily, they have no knowledge of their own claims let alone little knowledge to argue another's as "fallacy."


Let me help you out here. The tree on the Lebanese flag is a Lebanese Cedar tree. Here's a picture of one. They grow up to 130 ft tall with a trunk as large in diameter as 9 ft. They can also grow with many trucks coming out of the root base.










Not one person on this thread said that evergreens did not exist in that part of the world in the time of the Old Testament.

What people did say is that the Christmas tree was not used in Judea in biblical times. The origin of what we now call the Christmas tree is Northern Europe.

Not all evergreens are Christmas trees. A Christmas tree is created by taking an evergreen, one that is conical in shape, and decorating it with lights and ornaments. The Bible says nothing at all about Christmas trees.

Further, look at that tree... it's shaped more like an oak tree than it is a conical tree that would be used for a Christmas tree. They don't make good Christmas trees.


The Lebanon Cedars are mentioned in 46 verses in the Bible... Clearly there is no problem with evergreen trees.


"Open thy doors, O Lebanon, that the fire may devour thy cedars. Howl, fir tree; for the cedar is fallen; because the mighty are spoiled: howl, O ye oaks of Bashan; for the forest of the vintage is come down." (Zechariah 11:1, 2)

"He moves his tail like a cedar; The sinews of his thighs are tightly knit." (Job 40:17)

"The priest shall take cedarwood and hyssop and scarlet stuff, and cast them into the midst of the burning of the heifer" (Numbers 19:6)

"The voice of the Lord breaks the cedars; the Lord breaks in pieces the cedars of Lebanon" (Psalm 29:5)

"The righteous flourish like the palm tree and grow like the cedar in Lebanon" (Psalm 92:12)

"I will put in the wilderness the cedar, the acacia, the myrtle, and the olive" (Isaiah 41: 19)

"Behold, I will liken you to a cedar in Lebanon, with fair branches and forest shade" (Ezekiel 31:3)

"I destroyed the Amorite before them, whose height was like the height of the cedars" (Amos 2:9)

"The trees of the Lord are watered abundantly, the cedars of Lebanon that he planted." (Psalm 104:16 NRSV)

[King Solomon made] cedar as plentiful as the sycamore-fig trees in the foothills. (1 Kings 10:27, NIV, excerpt)


Here's a list of all 46 verses.. it's a bit too long to post here


----------



## pidge70

You sound fun! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EleGirl

foolscotton3 said:


> If you feel comfortable deceiving your children, and marginalizing Christ in favor of traditional wives tales that promote merit rather than grace, more power to you... I would imagine anybody that speaks truth to your children about the lies you hold so sacred to the childhood experience would be condemned to death, such is the patterns of scripture, humanity will always condemn anything that stands between them and object of worship, even if that means condemning God himself.


Of course you realize that in this post you are calling several posts here liars? 

You are also saying that we would condemn to death someone like you who thinks they are telling the truth.

You are also accusing us of worshiping a tree with trinkets, bunnies, colored eggs, and children's costumes.

Do you even stop to think about the nonsense you are spewing?

You are the one here making false witness about what we have said here. You are twisting our words in a very hateful manner.


----------



## turnera

foolscotton3 said:


> If you feel comfortable deceiving your children, and marginalizing Christ in favor of traditional wives tales that promote merit rather than grace, more power to you... *I would imagine anybody that speaks truth to your children about the lies you hold so sacred to the childhood experience would be condemned to death, such is the patterns of scripture*, humanity will always condemn anything that stands between them and object of worship, even if that means condemning God himself.


Just...wow.

I do feel comfortable ensuring that my daughter enjoyed the CULTURE of my country - thrilling over the thought of Santa Claus visiting her, knowing if she's good or bad, going through her belongings to donate stuff to more needy kids very Christmas, enjoying making or buying gifts to give people she loves and seeing the look in their eyes when they realize how much effort she put into it, driving around to look at house lights, throwing a party so she can enjoy a festive time with her best friends, getting to see family she rarely sees...yeah, I feel pretty darn good about that.

Did that make her less Christian? No. She is quite intelligent - like most people. Like most people she's utterly capable of realizing that enjoying the culture of her country in no way speaks to her love for and reverence of God.

And I don't know where YOU live, but around here, we don't condemn people to death (unless they're a convicted murderer, but that's another story), ESPECIALLY when they are doing positive, helpful, decent, loving things. And everyone I know (except maybe some religious zealots) WELCOMES honest discussion, opposing views, and an open mind. Too bad there seems to be short supply of that.


----------



## Starstarfish

> Because the land is known for its evergreens, and the evergreens have always been admired by the culture that surrounds them. Anybody that claims the evergreen wasn't native to old testament the geography, to make a straw-man argument against ecumenical context could be dismissed easily, they have no knowledge of their own claims let alone little knowledge to argue another's as "fallacy."


My argument poorly executed, I already conceded that. In the end, as noted, EleGirl made and continues to make the point I was attempting to in a far more intelligent manner than I did. It was not indeed, my most eloquent post. 



> I would imagine anybody that speaks truth to your children about the lies you hold so sacred to the childhood experience would be condemned to death, such is the patterns of scripture, humanity will always condemn anything that stands between them and object of worship, even if that means condemning God himse


Actually, I have never actively taught my child about Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny. His knowledge of that comes purely from his exposure to the wider culture via television or seeing them portrayed. I have never said either would be bringing presents or rewards. I don't indeed, threaten my autism-spectrum son with cosmic punishment from either for poor behavior. I don't mention them at all.

I actually, personally, hate Christmas as it is. It is the time of year I find it most painful to attempt to actively forget how dysfunctional my wider family. I find little indeed wonder in the whole thing and find it a painful time that is only brightened with time off from work. In honesty, with my history of depression, it's quite possible I have some sort of SDD that is simply made worse by my own personal experience with the Christmas season. 

So ... I don't really "hold it so sacred to the childhood experience" I have to actively push myself to want to do anything at all, but do so for my son's sake. 

I honestly only got involved in this cluster of a discussion at all because as I laid out early in the original lifeline of this thread, widely accepted fallacies about pagans/druids and their connection to Christmas trees kind of rubs me wrong.


----------



## turnera

Starstarfish said:


> Actually, I have never actively taught my child about Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny. His knowledge of that comes purely from his exposure to the wider culture via television or seeing them portrayed. I have never said either would be bringing presents or rewards. I don't indeed, threaten my autism-spectrum son with cosmic punishment from either for poor behavior.
> 
> I actually, personally, hate Christmas as it is. It is the time of year I find it most painful to attempt to actively forget how dysfunctional my wider family.


Your second statement belies your first. YOUR bad experience. 

And since when does the Easter Bunny not give candy if you're bad? :scratchhead:


----------



## turnera

foolscotton3 said:


> I personally never said a word about Christmas trees, and it doesn't at all concern me. I don't care or have an opinion on what is, was, or might be pagan.


No, you just tried to cryptically take aim at them through this:



> the flag of Lebanon has an evergreen on it for a reason.


----------



## Starstarfish

turnera said:


> Your second statement belies your first. YOUR bad experience.
> 
> And since when does the Easter Bunny not give candy if you're bad? :scratchhead:


The first sentence confuses me, Tunera.

It's what my Mom implied when I was a kid.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## pidge70

foolscotton3 said:


> Last post,
> 
> Never once did I mention anything about Christmas trees, eggs, or even Halloween or costumes, I did mention the Easter bunny, and Santa Claus.
> 
> Your confusing me and another poster.
> 
> I don't even believe myself that Halloween is anything more than Children playing dress up, and any folklore surrounding the event has been lost in the ages or altogether left out for the sake of our children.
> 
> I mention the easter bunny and Santa because these aren't ancient traditions carried through the ages. they are modern traditions that have little or nothing but circumstanced significance to a long forgotten practice.
> 
> I believe teaching your children that Santa is as much a reason to celebrate Christmas as is Christ is idolatry, and I believe the same for the Easter Bunny.
> 
> I don't believe that deceiving your children into believing in Santa, or praising him in song makes you an idol worshiper. Sleeping around on your wife doesn't make you a adulterer. Your actions only confirm your hearts desire.
> 
> To the OP,
> The words opinion is just that, it isn't going to change your husband, he believes he is better serving God this way, weather you or anybody feels he is or not doesn't change the facts, it only helps to validate that yourself and the world may share the same opinions.
> 
> I trust that if you are a Christian, one thing you have considered is Ephesians 5:24. And know that you are doing what God has asked of you.


The OP hasn't been back in over a year, and she only posted 3 times. I seriously doubt she will return to read your words of wisdom.


----------



## EleGirl

foolscotton3 said:


> I personally never said a word about Christmas trees, and it doesn't at all concern me. I don't care or have an opinion on what is, was, or might be pagan.


You raised the issue of evergreens existing in the Middle East in response to a post saying that Christmas trees were not used in Judea in Biblical times.


----------



## EleGirl

foolscotton3 said:


> Last post,
> 
> Never once did I mention anything about Christmas trees, eggs, or even Halloween or costumes, I did mention the Easter bunny, and Santa Claus.
> 
> Your confusing me and another poster.


You tried to refute that Christmas trees did not exist in Judea in Biblical times by pointing out that evergreens exist n Lebanon.



foolscotton3 said:


> I mention the easter bunny and Santa because these aren't ancient traditions carried through the ages. they are modern traditions that have little or nothing but circumstanced significance to a long forgotten practice.


Ancient traditions are not the only traditions that matter. Through out all of history traditions change and new ones are added. Each new generation adds something new to traditions and society.




foolscotton3 said:


> I believe teaching your children that Santa is as much a reason to celebrate Christmas as is Christ is idolatry, and I believe the same for the Easter Bunny.


People who make Santa the reason for the season are not religious people. And as non-religious they are not making an idol out of Santa. A person has to worship something as a god in order to make it an idol.



foolscotton3 said:


> I don't believe that deceiving your children into believing in Santa, or praising him in song makes you an idol worshiper. Sleeping around on your wife doesn't make you a adulterer. Your actions only confirm your hearts desire.


Songs out Santa are not "praising Santa". You are working so hard to try to make Santa into a idol that it's getting ridiculous.


----------



## EleGirl

Starstarfish said:


> The first sentence confuses me, Tunera.
> 
> It's what my Mom implied when I was a kid.


Na, the Easter Bunny does not keep and naughty and nice list and only give to good kids. Sounds like your mother found a way to get you to behave better leading up to Easter.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

This is how heresies are born when folks don't check their facts on reliable sources. The Bible states very plainly that not one who is saved will be snatched from Christ's hand, not one, therefore my "doing" doesn't save me, the power of God does. My "doing" is born from adoring Him and is the "evidence" that He is in fact in me, it cannot be not the other way around since the power is not of me.

ETA: In other words...The doomsday websites must be vetted heavily


----------



## turnera

I'm here putting up my Christmas decorations, and I'm looking at the set of Santa Clauses my SIL gave me. They are depictions of all the different versions of Santa Claus that exist all over the world, which show the style of each country. Santa Clauses that have been in 'existence' in these countries for hundreds and hundreds of years. Why do they all have Santa Clauses? Because human nature makes us want to have a reason and a setting to be grateful and giving and supportive and to come together to celebrate. Even if the particular country isn't Christian. Neat that our human nature will come up with something similar across all types of people. Something to think about.


----------



## Starstarfish

I do wonder if Santa is more often a thing in countries that are primarily Protestant versus Catholic or Orthodox where Epiphany is a still a thing. 

Because I know that in Latin American and Spanish-culture areas there the culture celebrates the Magi AKA The Three Wisemen as whom brings presents and gifts (similarly of course to how they brought them to Jesus.)

And of course, the interesting thing there, as Tunera notes about Santa is the traditional belief that the Three Wisemen represented a very diverse group as they are traditionally represented as three different cultures/races.


----------



## turnera

Hmmm, sounds like a great subject to study!


----------



## SlowlyGettingWiser

CuddleBug said:


> When Jesus and his disciples were alive, did they partake in pagan festivities? No. Did they do Christmas trees, decorations, Easter Bunny, Halloween, etc. No. They knew what it was all about.
> 
> So if Jesus and the first true Christians didn't do these things, why are we Christians doing them 2000 or so years later?


Jesus and the disciples didn't use computers, so why are we? :scratchhead: 

...maybe we're all sinning!


----------



## turnera

Are you a Quaker, Cuddlebug? No? Then why are you using electricity, cars, COMPUTERS? They weren't around for Jesus to use, either.


----------



## Starstarfish

> Hmmm, sounds like a great subject to study!



I already chose my subject. I did my Master's research on concepts of female sanctity in the Early Insular Irish Church and how that was tied into pre-Christian Irish society and inlets for female religious and social power and how it was portrayed in the lives in female saints like Ita and Bridget. 

I recently applied to a Doctorate program to continue it. 

But honestly, trying to separate Westernized Christianity as a social construct from the culture that created is a moot endeavor in large part. Our faith defined our culture and our culture shaped our faith. And the self-actualization of Western Christianity is more than just word-for-word what's in the Bible as our interpretation and understanding and translation of those words is shaped by our culture.


----------



## EleGirl

Starstarfish said:


> I do wonder if Santa is more often a thing in countries that are primarily Protestant versus Catholic or Orthodox where Epiphany is a still a thing.
> 
> Because I know that in Latin American and Spanish-culture areas there the culture celebrates the Magi AKA The Three Wisemen as whom brings presents and gifts (similarly of course to how they brought them to Jesus.)
> 
> And of course, the interesting thing there, as Tunera notes about Santa is the traditional belief that the Three Wisemen represented a very diverse group as they are traditionally represented as three different cultures/races.


In the countries other than the USA where I have lived (central America, East Africa, Middle East and Italy) the epiphany was celebrated. No one had Christmas trees. And Santa was not around. 

However, Italians do have Babbo Natale, (father Christmas) who is St. Nicolas. But they don't have the same associations about the character as Americans do.


----------



## ConanHub

Too late!!! We are all going to hecckkkkk!!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Starstarfish said:


> I already chose my subject.


I was talking about ME. For FUN.


----------



## turnera

This is pretty cool.

The History and Legend of Santa Claus


Top 10 Santa Legends From Around the World - Toptenz.net

http://www.stnicholascenter.org/pages/around-the-world-2/


----------



## 2ntnuf

I was raised Roman Catholic. My dad was in seminary for a couple years. He was pretty good about keeping us on the straight and narrow as far as the church was concerned, following some of the rules that were determined to be no longer valid(?). ETA: Which means he was a little stricter than most parents due to the old rules. end ETA. Anyway, we did put up a tree and had a manger under it. We also had a train under it and a small village. We had a Santa figurine that was placed on a short wall for decoration. We put ugly red plastic, lighted wreaths in the living room windows. We did not kneel and pray or worship at the tree or the figurine or the wreaths. They were decorations only and we were told that specifically. It was explained to us at a young age. Decorations did not make any of us fall away from the church. 

While I understand the concern, I tend to think it's a bit of paranoia and a sort of mindset that doesn't allow for the intelligence of children and adults. What I don't like about it is the commercialization. Yeah, I think there needs to be advertising. Folks need jobs and this isn't such a horrible thing. I just think there is so much pressure on parents, weaker and poorer folks set about robbing and stealing to meet the expectations placed on them by society and commercials. Those are what bother me because people actually get hurt and that's absolutely not the message of Christmas. Sad that the real message can't be delivered to all without offending.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Yes, this is my issue too, commercialism around Christmas, weddings and motherhood in particular.

I was literally told by my mother that I was must have two mental conditions since I was not "nesting" while pregnant.

I was "nesting." It just wasn't this full blown nursery like she would have done. All that stuff isn't necessary, so I just have my own philosophy, not mental illness, but good grief our society make a case that if you don't have xyz you won't survive childcare. Sorry, but my child and I will survive just fine being changed on a big cushy towel/blanket. I never had a "changing station" but instead had a thick blanket I covered with a towel and put it where I needed it, ( bed, counter or floor). Never had a crib, but a compact co-sleeper that was between my H and I in the bed $30. Right now he has a VERY nice aerobed, queen size for his bed. He loves it. I just push a pillow undr the bed sheet to keep him from rolling off. Has never has a toddler bed. We use what we have the way it used to be done. It bothers me when I see wives pushing their husbands to fully outfit a nursery, when the bulk of that stuff is totally unnecessary. So, same thing with weddings and Christmas in my opinion. And don't even get me started on the housing and auto industry.


----------



## 2ntnuf

foolscotton3 said:


> But did you pray to the dead to intercede for your salvation and venerate a man as the image of god on earth?
> 
> Did the 10 commandments of your chatecism match those of the bible. Does the 10 commandments of the Roman Catholic catechism even mention the making idols, or was that omitted to make room for their sacred icons?
> 
> I was raised in the cult as well.


I hear this all the time. Do you know that if you've officially left the church you can no longer go to heaven? Do you know why? Because you were taught the way to salvation and rejected it. I don't pray to any statues. Those saints are alive in Christ, not dead. We could argue all day, but I don't think it is worth it. You have a right to your beliefs and I to mine. Neither of us can really be certain of anything, until we die. We have faith and thereby grace. Works come from the desire to follow the faith and through the gifts of the Holy Spirit. God Bless and Merry Christmas.


----------



## Starstarfish

turnera said:


> I was talking about ME. For FUN.


Go for it girl! 

I do agree it would be an interesting look, because this conversation probably would have an entirely different feel within a vastly different cultural context.


----------



## Starstarfish

> Isaiah 64:6 taught me that religion, is like offering to God, the menstral garment you used to cleanse your sin, as a sacrifice


There's no translation of Isaiah 64:6 I can find that in anyway refers to "menstral" so the random inclusion of that word and the non-neccessity versus the actual term - filthy or unclean seems at face value like backhanded sexism.

Was it to remind the women posting here in this thread about how unclean and unworthy they are? Why the focus on genitals in general in your post?

If all religion was taught by the devil, then why did God himself lay down expectations for the Hebrews that were so "religion" IE - law focused? Why create an entire culture that is the very essence of "earning your part in your own salvation" literally, through expectation of physical burnt-offering sacrifice and the killing of people found living outside the law. Was that just to pull a "Ha-Ha" later after Christ was born?

Were the Hebrews following a religion created by the Devil when they followed the literal word of God as given from the Holy of Holies to Moses and Aaron?


----------



## Starstarfish

This reminds me why I stopped going to church. 

Because I cannot rectify my faith in a loving God with all of this heavy anti-female symbolism and interpretation. 

Also, I've never heard the interpretation that the law was supposed to be a curse. 



> The laws weren't given to man so that he could obtain salvation, the law was given to man so that he would be under a curse. Without the law, we have nothing to be saved from, we would all be holy, its because of the law we are all Fkd, and need Christ.


God had no need to tell men the law so they could all be holy. Telling us about which things are sins didn't change the curse of original sin. So didn't we all arguably need saving whether or not God told us murder was wrong?


----------



## EleGirl

Starstarfish said:


> Also, I've never heard the interpretation that the law was supposed to be a curse.


foolscotton3 seems to have his own personal interpretation of things.


----------



## Runs like Dog




----------



## CantePe

*Re: Re: Husband says no more Christmas Tree, Santa, Easter, kids upset*



foolscotton3 said:


> If you feel comfortable deceiving your children, and marginalizing Christ in favor of traditional wives tales that promote merit rather than grace, more power to you... I would imagine anybody that speaks truth to your children about the lies you hold so sacred to the childhood experience would be condemned to death, such is the patterns of scripture, humanity will always condemn anything that stands between them and object of worship, even if that means condemning God himself.


My children are not baptised...before you scream blasphemy at me I happen to be spiritually pagan. My morals and values are set in one sentence:

Do as ye please but harm none, all you do comes back to you three fold.

My values hail from my Irish ancestral roots. Druidry and Celtic Shamanism.

A very inward, naturally connected set of doctrines and dogma that accepts all values and works from within. I also associate with Unitarian Universalism (got married in a UU hall and was a purely Druidic ceremony).

Wasn't it God that said I am known by many names, I have many faces?


----------



## Blonde

> Let No One Disqualify You - Colossians 2
> 16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. 18 Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions,[d] puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind, 19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God.
> 
> 20 If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations— 21 “Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch” 22 (referring to things that all perish as they are used)—according to human precepts and teachings? 23 These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.


To me, the above rules out legalism about such matters.

That said, in our family Easter is about the Resurrection, not the Bunny. Christmas is Jesus' Birthday. Santa Claus comes from Saint Nicholas. The fellas dressed in red suits remind us of the kindness and generosity of Saint Nicholas. We got a nice children's book from a Christian bookstore which included the following account of Saint Nicholas:



> One story tells of a poor man with three daughters. In those days a young woman's father had to offer prospective husbands something of value—a dowry. The larger the dowry, the better the chance that a young woman would find a good husband. Without a dowry, a woman was unlikely to marry. This poor man's daughters, without dowries, were therefore destined to be sold into slavery. Mysteriously, on three different occasions, a bag of gold appeared in their home-providing the needed dowries. The bags of gold, tossed through an open window, are said to have landed in stockings or shoes left before the fire to dry. This led to the custom of children hanging stockings or putting out shoes, eagerly awaiting gifts from Saint Nicholas. Sometimes the story is told with gold balls instead of bags of gold. That is why three gold balls, sometimes represented as oranges, are one of the symbols for St. Nicholas. And so St. Nicholas is a gift-giver. St. Nicholas Center ::: Who is St. Nicholas?


My 19yod was dating a young man whose family does not do Christmas, Easter, etc. The women don't talk in church AT ALL, they don't even pray, and they wear head coverings.

To me that was all very scary and I'm very glad that she broke up with him recently. She told me she feels God's LOVE much more since they broke up. She said their views were much more about judgment.


----------



## daisybush

I think he need good concealer for this and she should not not behave like this, if he is behaving like this it menace their some problem 
http://www.californialoveconsultant.com


----------



## Lucy5896

Hello I realize this post is old... BUt I am going through the same thing right now. I am devastated with the Idea of not being able to celebrate our Savior. I am aware of the origins of Christmas..... But what better way to slap the devil in the face that to turn a pagan celebration into WORSHIPING AND GLORIFYING the LORD!!!! I also found a video on Youtube that was very helpful titled: Should Christians Celebrate Christmas? By: Sanderson1611. I am still in making my case, I have prayed so much about this, asking God for discernment. Pray that your family is at peace and most of all walking with the Lord in obedience. God Bless.


----------



## Tayloa

English Standard Version
You shall not worship the LORD your God in that way, for every abominable thing that the LORD hates they have done for their gods, for they even burn their sons and their daughters in the fire to their gods. (Deut. 12:31)

We are told in the bible not to worship God in the same manner as the pagans worshiped their gods. So, it doesn't matter what these practices mean to us, it matters what these practices mean to God, if you truly want to love and follow HIM the way He asks us to.

If you could be completely honest with yourself, is it the traditions you are most upset about losing? Or is it really the religious aspect of the holiday?

It is possible to enjoy honoring God with the traditions He established for us (The appointed Times) instead of manmade ones. 

I am in the same position as your husband, except it is my husband that wants to keep the traditions of man (ie Christmas) and not those of God. So I understand this is a difficult position to be in.

I hope this helps. I wish you well and may God bless your family.


----------



## MattMatt

This thread has been reanimated twice.

That's more than enough.


----------

