# Issues in my marriage



## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

Hello,

I'm looking for opinions from the board, I'm 38, married for 15 years this October. I have had issues in my marriage in the past, for the most part it's good but I always get this vibe from my wife that she feels she's a martyr for keeping the marriage together and she could've done better. She openly flirts with men in front of me, I don't bring it up but I think she realizes it. She's even had a friend stop speaking to her for flirting with her ex-husband (they're co-parenting and always together, even vacation together it's odd so she took real offense...).

When she's socializing with other people she's friendly, fun, and great. When at home with me and the family she's miserable, acts like a martyr all the time and I'm just kinda done. She's pretty, we've got history, and kids, but I can't take the martyr routine anymore. If you feel you can do better have at it, I'll find someone happy to have me is where I'm at right now.

When the issues started I realized I needed to try harder in the past because to be honest, my wife was way out of my league. In the three years since I've lost 60 lbs, I'm 170 and probably 8% body fat, down from 230 and probably 30% BF, I've received my undergrad, started my MBA, been promoted twice (now a VP). I went to counseling to deal with anxiety issues, I cut down any excessive drinking, I work my ass off at the house (new house, bought her dream house), I never sit on a weekend without getting a project done. I feel like I'm a great Dad and very good husband at this point, I'm the best man I've ever been. At first my turnaround worked, she became a lot more affectionate, even a bit insecure, but that was short-lived. But still I get from my wife that she's doing me favors by being with me.

I'm at the point where I'm 38, I can do no more to help this marriage, and should I just move on and find someone who will appreciate me? My wife is a beautiful woman and I'm thinking this factors into the issues we're having.


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

Have you two tried counseling? It kinda sounds like the two of you are speaking two different languages right now.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

knobcreek said:


> Hello,
> 
> I'm looking for opinions from the board, I'm 38, married for 15 years this October. I have had issues in my marriage in the past, for the most part it's good but I always get this vibe from my wife that she feels she's a martyr for keeping the marriage together and she could've done better. She openly flirts with men in front of me, I don't bring it up but I think she realizes it. She's even had a friend stop speaking to her for flirting with her ex-husband (they're co-parenting and always together, even vacation together it's odd so she took real offense...).
> 
> ...


Yes, if she is not responding to your immense improvement, she is probably ridiculously overestimating her own marital market value (MMV). How old is she?


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

SecondTime'Round said:


> Have you two tried counseling? It kinda sounds like the two of you are speaking two different languages right now.


We haven't done counseling, she's reluctant, I am too. I've done counseling in the past but never found it very effective. With her, I doubt it would matter but who knows.



technovelist said:


> Yes, if she is not responding to your immense improvement, she is probably ridiculously overestimating her own marital market value (MMV). How old is she?


She's 33, recently graduated and started working. I think she's branching out and feeling like she sold herself short and she can do better. It's just what I get from her actions and vibes.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

What kind of work does she do?


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

technovelist said:


> What kind of work does she do?


Third grade teacher.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Hmmmm I'm not an advocate of separation but if I were you I cut down the heavy lifting and move out for awhile. 

You're too young to live a sh!ty life. Seems like you may be suffering from Mr Nice Guy. Read up on no more mr nice guy.

Beauty only goes so far. 

Your life is going to be what you make it not her or anyone else. You need to smarten up a bit. You've done a lot of work here for apparently nothing

I would not put up with the flirting either. Get a spine. Women hate weakness and meek men. Damn!!!!!


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Ok, so she probably isn't getting hit on too much at work, but I still think she thinks she is way too fabulous to be with you. This is of course ridiculous, but unfortunately not that uncommon.

Does she perhaps have a cell phone that she hangs onto all the time?


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

Marc878 said:


> I would not put up with the flirting either. Get a spine. Women hate weakness and meek men. Damn!!!!!


That's the thing, I wouldn't call myself a "nice guy" we dealt with issues about 12 years ago and I left, dropped the bomb, gone over her behavior and got begged back. I don't blow up at her flirting, part of it is her personality and she doesn't even realize she's flirting.

I do agree my hard work has gone for very little, honestly to make VP at my job was a shock but still, I'm doing well. I just ran a marathon in under 4 hours, and coming from two years ago where I couldn't run 200 meters I feel I've done well. I'm not a tall man just 5'9, but been told I'm a spitting image for Colin Farrell so I'm not an ugly dude.



technovelist said:


> but I still think she thinks she is way too fabulous to be with you...
> 
> Does she perhaps have a cell phone that she hangs onto all the time?


No, no cell phone that I know about, I don't think she's cheating although I wouldn't be shocked by it, in fact relieved by it, at least there would be a reason for this behavior.

I do think it's just that she thinks she's just too awesome and fabulous to be with someone as ordinary as me. I think that's just what it is, and like I said I'm the best man I've been ever and I can do no more to improve myself, or at least very little at this point.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

knobcreek said:


> *I do think it's just that she thinks she's just too awesome and fabulous to be with someone as ordinary as me.* I think that's just what it is, and like I said I'm the best man I've been ever and I can do no more to improve myself, or at least very little at this point.


Yes, I'm pretty sure *this *is the case, whether or not she is cheating on you.

Oops, I see you have kids. That makes it a lot more complicated, but I can't see it working out in the long run anyway. How old are the kids?


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

You need a plan.

Why waste your life on this?

Your intelligent obviously. Figure out what you want your life to be and stick to it.

No need in looking back as she is never going to change permanently.

Or accept what you have now and live with it.

The Calvary isn't coming. It's all on you.

5'9" is probably above average. What are you afraid of? The unknown?
Most are but its better than a crappy existence.


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## knightRider (Dec 31, 2014)

Do no stand for her flirting with other men, total disrespect for you. If she flirts in front of you, what do you think she does when you're not there?

I would talk to her about it, calmly put in place some boundaries, may it clear what you accept, then stick by it. If she then continues to flirt, implement 360 etc.


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

She's doing exactly what MMSL tells men to do, flirt with others etc. 
I won't contradict myself by giving you different advice I'd give a woman. I would not break up your marriage over it yet. 

How much emotional investment do you both put into the relationship? Do you date? Do you pay close attention to her? Tell her she's beautiful? Laugh with her? Flirt with her? 

Thee is a lot that can be done to fix this. 

Firstly- set boundaries - I would say "you are my wife! now act like it! I deserve to be respected and loved by you, you should be flirting with me. If you choose to flirt with other men, so be it but you will be single, because I won't put up with it ever again" 

You have to mean it. 

That's just for a start.


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## jsmart (Mar 14, 2015)

If she's back at work, she may be seeing men that she' finding attractive, which may explain why the positive affects from your improvements has worn off. 

You done remarkably well in turning yourself around. I'm sure you're getting indicators of interest from woman but if she doesn't see it, it didn't happen. I know feminist will disagree but when it comes to males that their attracted to, women are like sheep. They follow the herd. They guy that is banging and abusing woman, is the one that gets the hottest woman and others follow even to the point of willing to be a side piece to a perceived alpha than to have a loyal hard working but boring beta.

If she's thinking he can't get better and that she settled, then it might be time to instill dread. Google it.


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

*LittleDeer* said:


> How much emotional investment do you both put into the relationship? Do you date? Do you pay close attention to her? Tell her she's beautiful? Laugh with her? Flirt with her?


We do a lot of dating even if it's on the couch with wine and a movie and putting the kids upstairs, I send her nice notes throughout the day, tell her she's beautiful (she is), we talk, snuggle. We typically have sex 3 times a week and sleep topless and I hold her. There's no intimacy issues, all my plumbing works well. I think anymore attention from me would borderline on too much and clingy. Sometimes I consciously dial it back, but I'm affectionate by nature so it's not always easy.



*LittleDeer* said:


> ]
> Firstly- set boundaries - I would say "you are my wife! now act like it! I deserve to be respected and loved by you, you should be flirting with me. If you choose to flirt with other men, so be it but you will be single, because I won't put up with it ever again"


I've been avoiding bringing up her flirting, she'll deny it, call me crazy, and it will be a fight I just don't want. She'll say that she's not allowed to talk to other men and I'm possessive (which I'm not, I encouraged her to go back to school and start working).

As for the alpha and beta stuff, I'm just a man, part alpha, part beta, more beta I guess, although I tend to be put into leadership positions in any job I've held. I'm definitely more sensitive, not prone to violence or yelling. Prison is full of alpha males, honestly it's all pretty overrated. I can't pretend to be something I'm not, if my wife doesn't want me for me, then I don't want her to want me pretending to be something else if that makes sense? She can go date the bouncer making minimum wage with a cocaine problem then.

I don't believe she's cheating, but I wouldn't be surprised if she's now open to looking and "stepping up" while keeping me as the fall back plan. Part of me feels like I've been the "fall back plan" our entire marriage, and she does feel she's better than me, and could've landed a better looking and more successful man. Now that she has a degree and career it's gotten more obvious in my opinion.




jsmart said:


> If she's thinking he can't get better and that she settled, then it might be time to instill dread. Google it.


I'm pretty sure that's where I'm at in this marriage, married to a beautiful woman who thinks she's a martyr for marrying beneath her worth.




technovelist said:


> How old are the kids?


Kids are 14 - 9 - 3, they're the #1 reason why I haven't left, I really don't want some strange man raising my children. I feel there's a high likelihood of putting them in danger if my wife's dating. I think a lot of pedophiles look for single mom's with young kids.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

This is one of the reasons why "married game" is the hardest type: you can't credibly threaten to throw her out when she acts this way.

In this case, you have put yourself in an impossible position by saying this:

"I can't pretend to be something I'm not, if my wife doesn't want me for me, then I don't want her to want me pretending to be something else if that makes sense? She can go date the bouncer making minimum wage with a cocaine problem then."

and then this:

"Kids are 14 - 9 - 3, they're the #1 reason why I haven't left, I really don't want some strange man raising my children. I feel there's a high likelihood of putting them in danger if my wife's dating. I think a lot of pedophiles look for single mom's with young kids. "

In my opinion, your only hope of protecting your children's future is to pretend to be something you're not, that is, an alpha male to whom she will be attracted. This is much more difficult once she has dismissed your alpha status, but you may still be able to pull it out by using every possible method to raise your status in her eyes. Read MMSLP and follow its suggestions to the maximum possible extent. Of course there are no guarantees, but that should give you the best chance.


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

I've read portions of MMSL Primer and to be honest I find it comically bad and unrealistic. Some of the advice is good, losing weight, working towards a promotion and I did do just that, but a lot is just nonsense. The way the author describes him and his wife you would assume they're runway models and that just isn't the case (no offense to them, but the author invites it with his boasting throughout the book), I feel like the majority of the book is really rubbish and fantasy of the author.

I'm in good shape, never had a problem getting dates with women, I'm in executive management and working towards a graduate degree, I coach my kids sports and I'm very involved with them, I fix our home, electrical, plumbing you name it. I cook, clean, and vacuum without complaining. I am affectionate, I don't give off an air of desperation or feeling needy. I'm not too high, or too low, steady hand is what I'm about. My one negative which I know bothers her is I have no friends where we live. I have a ton from my home town and the military but we moved by her Dad I don't know anyone, and the town is small with cliques of people who have been friends for decades, it's not always easy to make new friends as a near 40 year old man, I have acquaintances, but no true friends here. I am not the type of guy who is going to flirt with women in order to make her feel like *crap and insecure in hopes that she'll then want me?

A big part is she seems to befriend divorced or single 40 year old women, they're always out drinking, dating, and I feel like she's gravitating towards that and wants that freedom and sees me as a hindrance to her freedom. She also sees them all on very strong anti-depressants, two are diagnosed bi-polar, and one has been committed twice for attempted suicide. You would think she would get that it's not all gravy.

I don't know I'm kinda just venting because I don't like to discuss this stuff with anyone I know, they talk and before you know it your issues are the main talking point at the parties you're not at.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Have you two actually discussed her vibe of being better than you? Or, is that a supposition on your part? Wouldn't it be wonderful if she had no idea you are feeling the way you are and is apologetic? 

Your wife sounds insecure. The flirting and hanging out with single women seems like a call for help.

Have a serious conversation wherein you lay out all your feelings about how her behavior is indicative that you are not good enough for her and then sit back and listen. You can always bring up the subject of divorce later.

She may be beautiful now, but she is 35. Gravity is going to start to kick azz big time. How many men want to take on a 35 yr old with young children?


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

Saw your post on "this is really happening.". To sum up: you and she began your relationship when you were 23 and she was 18. She became pregnant at 19 and committed adultery shortly there after. After two years of her begging the two of you reconciled and had two more children. 

You feel she pushed to reconcile out of need not love for you. She has grown into a beautiful women who no longer really needs you finacially or emotionally and therefore engages in behavior that is offensive not just to you but others around her. In fact this behavior is so out there you would not only not be surprised at an affair, but relieved.

How am I doing. Shall I keep going?


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

JohnA said:


> Saw your post on "this is really happening.". To sum up: you and she began your relationship when you were 23 and she was 18. She became pregnant at 19 and committed adultery shortly there after. After two years of her begging the two of you reconciled and had two more children.
> 
> You feel she pushed to reconcile out of need not love for you. She has grown into a beautiful women who no longer really needs you finacially or emotionally and therefore engages in behavior that is offensive not just to you but others around her. In fact this behavior is so out there you would not only not be surprised at an affair, but relieved.
> 
> How am I doing. Shall I keep going?


Well that's the very very abridged version of events, I was 22 she was 18 when we met (she's actually 34 we had birthdays recently so I'm stuck on 33), obviously A LOT has happened in the 15 years of our marriage not covered, but more or less accurate. I would say she is affectionate and needy emotionally, there isn't an issue with intimacy, we hold hands, kiss, make love. But on the other side of the coin, she exemplifies behavior of a woman who is not content and looking for something better (flirting with other men, going to bars with new friends who all seem to be divorced or otherwise newly single women). The affair early on isn't really a factor in any ongoing issues, it's kind of ancient history at this point, still happened, but overall I think obtaining her degree, working independently, and her looks is likely driving her to want to maybe want to be single and think back on where she is and how she could've done better.

By relieved from an affair I stated that because then I could get the issues in the marriage, otherwise I don't see what I can do different at this point to fix these issues. I think she just wants her freedom at this point and is in the process of moving on.

Hindsight 20/20 reconciling was probably a bad idea and done for the wrong reasons on both ends.


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## Youngster (Sep 5, 2014)

OP, a couple of things.....

First, if you're an executive/VP I'm guessing you're pulling in over $200K/year. If you've got that kind of money, at 38, you should be able to date 7-8's if you look like Quasimodo. You sound like an intelligent guy who's in good shape and reasonably attractive. No reason you can't date really attractive women.....certainly women who are as attractive as your wife and younger.

Second, your wife is a 33 year old third grade teacher? Seriously, if you were single, she should barely be meeting the minimum requirements of women you would consider dating. Add in she had 3 kids and most guys in your position might date her, but she wouldn't be long term relationship material. Remember, at 33 she's not going to get better looking. Her dating rank will continue to decline as yours increases. She'll be 46 when the last kid leaves the nest.....how many single guys want to sign up for that?

Let me ask, what do you think your and her sex rank is? What's her height/weight? No matter how she looks, as a third grade teacher her sex rank is an 8 tops.

So my advice to you is quit putting your wife on a pedestal, you are at the very least her equal. On top of that, you are her husband. Let her know what you find unacceptable(like flirting). Lay your cards on the table and fight for the marriage you want. If you can't meet each-others needs then be prepared to leave the marriage knowing that you will be able to meet an equally attractive partner that does meet your needs.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

It sounds like you're selling yourself short here. She may get the idea the grass is greener.

Doing what you're doing and what she's doing is edging closer to the edge. At some point if you can't or don't fix the issues she will fall off.

Good luck


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

knobcreek said:


> A big part is she seems to befriend divorced or single 40 year old women, they're always out drinking, dating, and I feel like she's gravitating towards that and wants that freedom and sees me as a hindrance to her freedom. She also sees them all on very strong anti-depressants, two are diagnosed bi-polar, and one has been committed twice for attempted suicide. You would think she would get that it's not all gravy.


This is the biggest red flag imaginable other than actual proof she is cheating on you! She wishes she were single so she could go after those men that she thinks she "deserves".

Your situation isn't going to get better until and unless she realizes that you are by far the best prospect she'll ever have for a husband.

But you'll almost certainly have to realize it first and treat her accordingly. Right now she thinks she can do whatever she wants and you'll put up with it. You have to change that.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

@knobcreek, I'll be honest, based on what you've written you sound like a great guy who, due to unplanned circumstances, married the wrong woman. I could be completely wrong though. What were you like when you first started dating your wife? Why did she choose to date you in the first place? What made you want to date your wife?


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Youngster said:


> OP, a couple of things.....
> 
> First, if you're an executive/VP I'm guessing you're pulling in over $200K/year. If you've got that kind of money, at 38, you should be able to date 7-8's if you look like Quasimodo. You sound like an intelligent guy who's in good shape and reasonably attractive. No reason you can't date really attractive women.....certainly women who are as attractive as your wife and younger.
> 
> ...


I'm so curious...Why does being a third grade teacher drop her sex rank in your opinion?


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## scatty (Mar 15, 2013)

Your lack of self esteem shines through your posts clearly. She's beautiful, we get it. However, she chose YOU to be her husband. So those thoughts do nothing but erode your self worth, and if you have ever told her this- it devalues you as a partner. What is up with her going to bars without you? Invite yourself to go along and be the awesome guy that you are!


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## Youngster (Sep 5, 2014)

Livvie said:


> I'm so curious...Why does being a third grade teacher drop her sex rank in your opinion?


Generally speaking, who do you think would have the higher sex rank. Brad Pitt the actor, Brad Pitt the third grade teacher or Brad Pitt the garbage man? It's common knowledge that a persons occupation, and their income, correlates with sex rank.

Teaching is a noble profession(my brother is a teacher) but it's not a "cool or exciting" profession. It's also not a profession where you're going to make a whole lot of money.

I'm an engineer, I make pretty good money but my occupation is neither cool nor exciting either.

I would think that OP being an executive would be considered by many to be cool/exciting. Also, there's a chance he's making more than all the third grade teachers in his wife's school......put together.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Youngster said:


> Generally speaking, who do you think would have the higher sex rank. Brad Pitt the actor, Brad Pitt the third grade teacher or Brad Pitt the garbage man? It's common knowledge that a persons occupation, and their income, correlates with sex rank.
> 
> Teaching is a noble profession(my brother is a teacher) but it's not a "cool or exciting" profession. It's also not a profession where you're going to make a whole lot of money.
> 
> ...


Sex rank is affected by status... if you are a man, e.g. your example of Brad Pitt.

With a woman, not so much.

That's because men are shallow, responding sexually mostly to appearance, whereas women's sexual response is more complex.

Which is why you are a lot more likely to see a male CEO with a female waitress than the other way around.


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## Youngster (Sep 5, 2014)

technovelist said:


> Sex rank is affected by status... if you are a man, e.g. your example of Brad Pitt.
> 
> With a woman, not so much.
> 
> ...


I disagree. I think status and education mean just as much to a man. Earning potential probably not so much since men typically like to make more than their spouse.

So in your opinion a female; teacher, waitress, doctor, lawyer, CEO, someone un-employed....their sex rank is solely based on looks? 

If I was dating I'd take a 6 doctor over an unemployed 10 any day.


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## thebirdman (Apr 5, 2014)

knobcreek said:


> I'm pretty sure that's where I'm at in this marriage, married to a beautiful woman who thinks she's a martyr for marrying beneath her worth.



I know lots of women who would love to have a husband who worked hard and tried to better himself, and vice-versa. 
Your wife is not "out of your league" so put that out of your head now. 
If she does in fact believe such a thing, you can't do anything about it. Only she can. 
What you can do is work to try and address the issues in your relationship. I would highly recommend counselling. 

The first counsellor is not always the best. You need to find one that you find helpful. 
Through counselling I discovered that I was trying to communicate love to my wife in a way that she didn't understand; one of the biggest problems in our marriage.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Youngster said:


> I disagree. I think status and education mean just as much to a man. Earning potential probably not so much since men typically like to make more than their spouse.
> 
> So in your opinion a female; teacher, waitress, doctor, lawyer, CEO, someone un-employed....their sex rank is solely based on looks?
> 
> If I was dating I'd take a 6 doctor over an unemployed 10 any day.


I'm not saying a woman's status and education don't mean anything to a man. 

What I'm saying is that a woman's status and education don't make women *more sexually attractive* to men.


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

Thank you for your previous answer. Would you mine a few more:

Does she ever refer to you as "my husband"? Does she have nicknames for you or others? When discussing something with others does she ever say "your name and I agree/disagree......." Does she ever do something unexpected because she was thinking of you? 

Also how much time do you really spend with her. Time management is big in the MBA world. Can you provide us an hourly 
Breakdown for your week. 

Work xxxx
Gym xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
School xxxx
Kids activities xxxx
Kids xxxxx
Watch tv with wife xxxxx
Watch tv xxxxx
Home maintenance xxxx
Alone time with wife x


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

Also past adultery is never ancient history. It is like herpes, it may go dormant for a decade but it is still there. You maybe triggering. This is why I am asking the questions I am. Look if you were to write that your wife had done all you have to improve most posters here would say she is having an affair.

Wife lost 40 pounds and in two years went from not being able to run 1/4 mile to a sub four hour marathon. How many here see this as a red flag.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

JohnA said:


> Also past adultery is never ancient history. It is like herpes, it may go dormant for a decade but it is still there. You maybe triggering. This is why I am asking the questions I am. Look if you were to write that your wife had done all you have to improve most posters here would say she is having an affair.
> 
> Wife lost 40 pounds and in two years went from not being able to run 1/4 mile to a sub four hour marathon. How many here see this as a red flag.


Not I, in the absence of anything else.


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

In NY State a third grade teacher requires a Master's Degree in Education and is a six figure job. I still make more than my wife but she's earning and working hard.

Work - 80 hours/week
Gym - run and do body-weight stuff 4-5 times a week, total 5 hours per week, I run before she's even awake so it has no impact.
School - 10-15 hours/week
Kids activities - 3-4 hours/week
Kids - not sure, I always play and interact with my kids
Watch tv with wife - I only watch TV with my wife
Watch tv - Jets every Sunday but she joins me, I'm not a big TV watcher, sometimes the Islanders and Yankees games
Home maintenance - We just bought a 115 year old Victorian so I spend 10- 20 hours per week working on the house
Alone time with wife - as much as I can get, all my time that's left



Lila said:


> @knobcreek, I'll be honest, based on what you've written you sound like a great guy who, due to unplanned circumstances, married the wrong woman. I could be completely wrong though. What were you like when you first started dating your wife? Why did she choose to date you in the first place? What made you want to date your wife?


Thank you, I still think she's the right woman, just going through something. I was an ******* when I first started dating my wife and she was impossible, we were 22 and 18 lol.


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## Youngster (Sep 5, 2014)

knobcreek said:


> In NY State a third grade teacher requires a Master's Degree in Education and is a six figure job. I still make more than my wife but she's earning and working hard.
> 
> Work - 80 hours/week
> Gym - run and do body-weight stuff 4-5 times a week, total 5 hours per week, I run before she's even awake so it has no impact.
> ...


I grew up in NYS. It's a six figure job because I'm going to guess you're down state. My brother has his bachelors and masters from SUNY Brockport. He's been a teacher for 10 years in western NYS(Section V) and he's a long long way from six figures. Like I said before, teaching is a noble profession, but don't make it a bigger deal than it is.

That's great your wife is working hard. I'm sure she's working 80 hours/week like you.....I didn't think so. What about summer, school breaks and holidays? Sorry, but I see you still putting her on a pedestal.....it appears you value her and her time more than yourself. 

I feel bad for you, it looks like you are flat out all the time, I bet she is not. There are only 168 hours in a week and doing some quick math you only have 60 hours free/week(not including sleep). This isn't healthy nor sustainable long term. 

IMHO you need to communicate your concerns(flirting) to your wife. You also need to change your lifestyle and prioritize yourself.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

knobcreek said:


> Thank you, I still think she's the right woman, just going through something. I was an ******* when I first started dating my wife and she was impossible, we were 22 and 18 lol.


I suspect part of your problem is that you aren't acting like the ******* that you were when you first started dating your wife. Of course that is hard to do when married, which is one of the reasons that married game is the hardest type...


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

Youngster said:


> I grew up in NYS. It's a six figure job because I'm going to guess you're down state. My brother has his bachelors and masters from SUNY Brockport. He's been a teacher for 10 years in western NYS(Section V) and he's a long long way from six figures. Like I said before, teaching is a noble profession, but don't make it a bigger deal than it is.
> 
> That's great your wife is working hard. I'm sure she's working 80 hours/week like you.....I didn't think so. What about summer, school breaks and holidays? Sorry, but I see you still putting her on a pedestal.....it appears you value her and her time more than yourself.
> 
> ...



I plan on talking to her about flirting with men either in front of me or when I'm not around, she needs to set boundaries. Part of it is she's just a friendly person and that invites attention which can evolve into flirting. Not making excuses for her but that's the way it tends to go. Overall she's a great wife, affectionate, funny (she is my best friend), smart, and determined. I really do love her, but her actions undermine me at times, and when she flirts I go do trigger back to the affair, which sucks and brings on anxiety and panic attacks. I also lament getting back after the affair, I mean the marriage is never the same and I kinda want that feeling of total trust and total dedication with someone, you can't ever have that with a spouse after an affair. Most of this isn't her fault, she did the right thing to fix the marriage (albeit after two years of separation and sowing her oats), but still she did, she was transparent, immensely remorseful, and worked hard to be a good wife.

I do make good money, but good money doesn't help when you're in bad debt, student loans, car payments, I own two homes. One I was upside down on 80K after the market crash so I rent it out because I didn't want to walk away from my debt, but I lose around $300 a month on it, the new house is an old Victorian and taxes on it are a lot and the mortgage costs a lot, overall I have 750K in mortgages and 220K in student loans. Plus downstate NY 200 K+ for a family of five isn't a ton to live on, I know that sounds crazy but they tax you like you wouldn't believe here. So I've actually done side work painting, clearing lawns on the weekends, so I'm run ragged I'll admit that.

I tend to look at it like I need two years of this to dig out, then I'll be able to unwind and relax a bit. CC debt and hopefully the rental situation will be resolved, we'll both be done with grad school, and most of the repairs, upgrades, and painting on the new house will be done.

Sometimes you just have to bear down and do what you have to do to get out of a tough situation.


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## syhoybenden (Feb 21, 2013)

I don't get your math.

You are one million in the red, gross 200K/annum to support a family of five and figure you'll be dug out in 2 years??!!!

You got a money tree in the backyard? Find Captain Kidd's treasure?


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

syhoybenden said:


> I don't get your math.
> 
> You are one million in the red, gross 200K/annum to support a family of five and figure you'll be dug out in 2 years??!!!
> 
> You got a money tree in the backyard? Find Captain Kidd's treasure?


Dug out means manageable debt, not 100% debt free, I don't plan on having both homes paid off, but credit cards paid off, savings back in the black, and enough disposable income to begin socking money away and enjoying vacations and nights out again. Student loans are what they are, just a monthly cost like an electric bill once you invest in yourself.

The homes I just bought I purchased for 280K under what it sold for in 2007, in 10 years I'll have a ton of equity in it, I put 70K down and did a lot of work to it so I'm probably sitting on 100K in equity right now. I don't really consider my new home putting me in the red, it's good debt to have, you have to have a roof over your head regardless. The older one, yes I'm still upside down on it, but in 5 - 10 years I'll have equity in that one too.


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## syhoybenden (Feb 21, 2013)

I guess I'm more fiscally conservative than you, than most frankly.

Most I've ever carried was 120K. Killed it with a stick as fast as I could. Don't believe in working to make the bank rich.

Paid off my house in 4 years 10 months.

Living debt-free is much more pleasant and you get to use your money on yourself.


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## tornado (Jan 10, 2014)

I was discussing this with my wife a week ago. A good guy like you (good job, hard worker, good father, and husband) gets sh!t on by a woman that's supposed to love you but some POS guy who won't do anything except what he wants can get all the women he wants. It truly baffles me why women treat good guys like crap.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Knob,
A couple general observations. I seriously doubt that your wife is cheating. Very few women can bring the heat 3 times a week at home while knocking boots with a third party. 

You have a high level of self awareness and situational awareness. I'm thinking you would notice if something was off like that. 

I want you to think about a few things before you speak to your wife. Before doing so, I'll give you a bit of context. 

Your relationship with your wife - henceforth K2 for short - reminds me of mine with my wife - same notation applies. For a while, M2 did have a thing for another guy - we'll call him Dan. And I just totally ignored it. 

On a pure physical attractiveness scale, Dan had me beat. So what. M2 is complicated and difficult - and funny and wonderful. Thing is, to get to the funny and wonderful, you need to traverse the complicated and difficult. And you need to make it look easy. 

Absolutely no way in hell he could do that. I actually laughed a few times thinking about it. 

I'm not saying what K2 is doing is ok. It really isn't. That said, you've got a choice to make. You can show strength or you can go to war. Here's what strength looks like: 

Knob: Lately you seem unhappy, restless
K2: Maybe defensive, maybe dismissive
Knob: If I can help you, I will. Might even surprise you, if you tell me what it is you want.
K2: Maybe pushing you away - or making an unkind comment 

Don't let her upset you. At all. Immovable object is a lot more appealing to a woman than most guys realize. 

-----------
After that, switch to body language for subsequent invitations of that sort. It's less - pushy. Tilt your head, give her an inquisitive look. Maybe a half smile thrown in. 

Want to keep your wife out of anyone else's bed. Best strategy for that is for her to feel pretty damn good in yours. I'm not talking sex. I'm talking the whole package. 

That said, maybe - a bit more edge - more dominance - in bed. But hey - maybe you are already there. 

As far as flirting goes. I don't know what to tell you. 

Dan and M2 worked together. I helped out once every two weeks. First time I saw them working together he was touching her arm, tickled her once - in front of me. Their chemistry was pretty damn good. 

That night I said: I don't like Dan touching you. Light edge in my voice. Wasn't really opening up a discussion. Note I didn't tell her what to do. If she'd argued I would have said: I don't like it. The more you argue, the more convinced I become my reason for not liking it is valid. 

But she didn't argue. Said she understood. That was the only thing I said about not liking the way they related - far as I can recall - and they worked together 3 years. 

Back to you. 

You ask K2 if she's unhappy. If she says she is unhappy, that's a good thing. That is trust. If she trusts you - best move is to encourage that. Ask if there is anything you can do to help. 

Honestly - she's likely a little bored. No good cure for that. Don't pretend otherwise. That is just your cue to say: 

This is the hard part. Little ones little. More financial strain than we expected. Good parts coming. Meantime we are all healthy, kids are doing good. 





knobcreek said:


> I plan on talking to her about flirting with men either in front of me or when I'm not around, she needs to set boundaries. Part of it is she's just a friendly person and that invites attention which can evolve into flirting. Not making excuses for her but that's the way it tends to go. Overall she's a great wife, affectionate, funny (she is my best friend), smart, and determined. I really do love her, but her actions undermine me at times, and when she flirts I go do trigger back to the affair, which sucks and brings on anxiety and panic attacks. I also lament getting back after the affair, I mean the marriage is never the same and I kinda want that feeling of total trust and total dedication with someone, you can't ever have that with a spouse after an affair. Most of this isn't her fault, she did the right thing to fix the marriage (albeit after two years of separation and sowing her oats), but still she did, she was transparent, immensely remorseful, and worked hard to be a good wife.
> 
> I do make good money, but good money doesn't help when you're in bad debt, student loans, car payments, I own two homes. One I was upside down on 80K after the market crash so I rent it out because I didn't want to walk away from my debt, but I lose around $300 a month on it, the new house is an old Victorian and taxes on it are a lot and the mortgage costs a lot, overall I have 750K in mortgages and 220K in student loans. Plus downstate NY 200 K+ for a family of five isn't a ton to live on, I know that sounds crazy but they tax you like you wouldn't believe here. So I've actually done side work painting, clearing lawns on the weekends, so I'm run ragged I'll admit that.
> 
> ...


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

tornado said:


> I was discussing this with my wife a week ago. A good guy like you (good job, hard worker, good father, and husband) gets sh!t on by a woman that's supposed to love you but some POS guy who won't do anything except what he wants can get all the women he wants. It truly baffles me why women treat good guys like crap.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think women enjoy attention, a husband can tell her she's beautiful and sexy all the time and mean it, but to her he's obligated to say those things. When an acquaintance at work or a stranger says it I think it creates a huge rush of emotion and hormones in a woman, it becomes addicting and wrong or not validates to her that she's still desirable.

I'm well aware that no affair has ever started without first some "innocent" flirting, so it's why I'm concerned over it. I'm also hitting midlife and starting to take stock of my life, mistakes made, paths not traveled, things like that. I'll probably just snap out of it and things will get back to normal.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

I know a lot of teachers and none of them work 80 hours a week. I doubt any work more than 50


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Knob,
If it's just a recreational rush - light entertainment - not sure I'd react to it. 

I do think that physical contact is worth commenting on. Not in a threatening way. Just in a 'I don't like it when there's physical contact between you and another man'. 

And don't debate it. I mean that. No matter what she says - just look at her calm and relaxed and be silent. 

See the thing is - M2 would have made a killer court room lawyer. She can spin and obfuscate and confuse in real time. 

That's the beauty of this approach. Touch is objective. There is no room for interpretation. It happens or it doesn't. 

Flirting - good luck getting to agreement on that. 

And it doesn't matter who is touching who. That's kind of the point. If she is being touched and doesn't shut that down - that's tacit encouragement. 

That said, nothing stopping you from a quick drive by from behind you come up and do a quick hug and kiss her neck. And then keep moving. That's sort of a fvck you - to the guy - but not a 'I own you bltch' message to your wife. 

And if your out together - find enough amusement so you don't have to be the one pressing her to leave. 



QUOTE=knobcreek;14195826]I think women enjoy attention, a husband can tell her she's beautiful and sexy all the time and mean it, but to her he's obligated to say those things. When an acquaintance at work or a stranger says it I think it creates a huge rush of emotion and hormones in a woman, it becomes addicting and wrong or not validates to her that she's still desirable.

I'm well aware that no affair has ever started without first some "innocent" flirting, so it's why I'm concerned over it. I'm also hitting midlife and starting to take stock of my life, mistakes made, paths not traveled, things like that. I'll probably just snap out of it and things will get back to normal.[/QUOTE]


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## Heatherknows (Aug 21, 2015)

knobcreek said:


> i think women enjoy attention, a husband can tell her she's beautiful and sexy all the time and mean it, but to her he's obligated to say those things. When an acquaintance at work or a stranger says it i think it creates a huge rush of emotion and hormones in a woman, it becomes addicting and wrong or not validates to her that she's still desirable.
> 
> I'm well aware that no affair has ever started without first some "innocent" flirting, so it's why i'm concerned over it. I'm also hitting midlife and starting to take stock of my life, mistakes made, paths not traveled, things like that. I'll probably just snap out of it and things will get back to normal.


very insightful.


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## BashfulB (Jul 1, 2013)

One positive thing about divorce these days is that in most states divorces are no-fault. What this means is that you can divorce her for whatever reason you want, because you don't really need a reason. 

Having said that though, have you sat down and told her that her unhappiness with you is making you unhappy? Have you suggested going to marriage counseling to her, or marriage coaching, to see if there may be a deeper underlying reason for her unhappiness? She could be harboring resentments or grudges against you that you may know nothing about. But whatever it could be, you need to let her know that her behavior towards you is unacceptable and that if the two of you do not work together to get to the bottom of it then you will be forced to look at your options and make some serious decisions. I don't think she is cheating or getting ready leave you, but she is definitely showing signs that she is thinking about it. You need to head it off and deal with it before its too late.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Bashful,
My contrarian view is a bit different. I believe it's perfectly ok, even necessary for KC to be honest about his view of what's happening. In a NON THREATENING WAY. The word unacceptable, that's a fighting word. I wouldn't use it unless I was actually ready to walk. His marriage may be strained, it's also got a lot of love and friendship in it. 

A couple key factors worth consideration are: 

Normal people cannot fake a good and frequent sex life. It is simply too difficult to do THAT almost every other day with someone you don't like, respect or desire. 

So - I believe she loves KC. I also believe she's a bit unhappy/bored. 

It saddens me to no end that the common treatment recommended for someone who's a bit unhappy and pushing marital boundaries is to tell them: 

Happy the fvck up, or I'm divorcing you. Or at least go to MC with me so they can make you happy. Because you're bringing me down and that is and I quote: UNACCEPTABLE 

Honestly - I had to guess - KC is just a little bit too kind for his own good. A little humorous edge goes a long way for a guy like that. 

Because I believe he and I are pretty similar. 

And around here, mixing in a playful edge with all the rest of the package, works pretty good. 







BashfulBull said:


> One positive thing about divorce these days is that in most states divorces are no-fault. What this means is that you can divorce her for whatever reason you want, because you don't really need a reason.
> 
> Having said that though, have you sat down and told her that her unhappiness with you is making you unhappy? Have you suggested going to marriage counseling to her, or marriage coaching, to see if there may be a deeper underlying reason for her unhappiness? She could be harboring resentments or grudges against you that you may know nothing about. But whatever it could be, you need to let her know that her behavior towards you is unacceptable and that if the two of you do not work together to get to the bottom of it then you will be forced to look at your options and make some serious decisions. I don't think she is cheating or getting ready leave you, but she is definitely showing signs that she is thinking about it. You need to head it off and deal with it before its too late.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

knobcreek said:


> But on the other side of the coin, she exemplifies behavior of a woman who is not content and looking for something better (flirting with other men, going to bars with new friends who all seem to be divorced or otherwise newly single women). The affair early on isn't really a factor in any ongoing issues, it's kind of ancient history at this point, still happened, but overall I think obtaining her degree, working independently, and her looks is likely driving her to want to maybe want to be single and think back on where she is and how she could've done better.


Affair early on? When, how long did it go on, who was it with, how did you find out? Did you really process the infidelity and get to the root of it, or did you just "move on" and "get over it"?

She should not be going out alone, nor should she be generally surrounded by women who are single.

Just that one bit of yours above confirms to me your gut is probably correct. She isn't satisfied with you. Your income, status, stability, being a good parent, etc is probably all very comforting to her. But it doesn't turn her on.

You need to get to the root of what is going on with her, and you need to set some boundaries around her behavior. If she isn't getting some on the side now, she will be soon. She sounds like a cake eater more than a walk-away type. Especially with kids she may be very motivated to not divorce, yet she is unsatisfied and openly engaging with other men in front of you.


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## Heatherknows (Aug 21, 2015)

Thor said:


> *She should not be going out alone, nor should she be generally surrounded by women who are single.
> *


Correct. That type of environment mixed with alcohol equals too much temptation.


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

Thor said:


> Affair early on? When, how long did it go on, who was it with, how did you find out? Did you really process the infidelity and get to the root of it, or did you just "move on" and "get over it"?
> 
> She should not be going out alone, nor should she be generally surrounded by women who are single.
> 
> ...


I covered some of it here, someone called my house at 3:00 AM I called back and it was some dude who was obviously nervous and hung up. I confronted my wife and it all came out (well most of it, she trickle truthed quite a bit). He was a co-worker, she claimed no contact, found ongoing text messages between them and I just left, packed up and gone within two weeks after the affair was uncovered and the first time I saw texts between them. She at first tried to get me back but I was sure whatever it was wasn't over so we separated. After about 6 months she dealt with depression, I was actually pretty much OK and dating someone else which was a bonus, sex with women who weren't my wife was intoxicating and I easily got used to part of the deal, since we were separated it was all legit and she knew I was dating, she was getting some why shouldn't I? We stayed separated for two years until I would say she won me back. Did I process the affair? Do you ever? At times I deal with anxiety and panic attacks over it, but that's rare. At times I feel regret for having reconciled, other times I feel like it was the best decision I ever made. 

I could see the part of her not being turned on by me if it weren't for the fact that we bang, we bang a lot, average three times a week but we've gone everyday sometimes twice in a day. Many times initiated by her and she orgasms without an issue just from penetration. If she weren't attracted to me I don't feel our sex life would be this good. You can't fake it this effectively, we've had rough patches where sex was bad, that's when I was 50 lbs overweight, now the sex is not an issue.



MEM11363 said:


> That said, maybe - a bit more edge - more dominance - in bed. But hey - maybe you are already there.


I'm naturally dominant and she's submissive so we've always clicked well in bed, no issue there at all.

I tend to agree, the flirting is an issue, but I'm not sure at this point me bringing it up will get me anywhere, it's highly unlikely she'll see it as flirting and I won't get anywhere trying to convince her it is.

She's not cheating, I would know in my gut, even the affair 12 years ago I knew something was up before I confirmed it, you just know, especially having been through it. I would definitely know.


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

Your time schedule with sleep is up to around 140 hours out of 148 hours. 

How old was your oldest while you were separated? While you engaged in your revenge affair (separated is not divorce) what was her social life. How did see view your affair? 

I think you are triggering hard due to her GNO and flirting. I posted previously adultery is like herpes. Your marriage is infected and needs extra work, empathy, patience and kindness on both spouses. Is it fair that what most couple may consider harmless is triggering you. No in your case it is not, and she needs to understand her remorse is a lifetime commitment. As in "I will never allow my husband to experience or think this will ever happen again. 

Does she know your lost weight and running is due to your fear of her cheating.


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

JohnA said:


> Your time schedule with sleep is up to around 140 hours out of 148 hours.
> 
> How old was your oldest while you were separated? While you engaged in your revenge affair (separated is not divorce) what was her social life. How did see view your affair?
> 
> ...


Definitely not a revenge affair, I left the house and the marriage was for all intents and purposes over, I had a lawyer, an apartment, and my contact with her was limited to picking up my son and discussing his well-being. She was actively seeing the other guy. A revenge affair connotes that you're trying to work the marriage out, still together, and reconciling, there was no reconciliation going on at all, I left, gone, done... I was dating not having revenge affairs. I have no idea what her social life was like, last I knew she was still dating the other fella, it's what precipitated me leaving. I don't know what she thought of my dating and I didn't care, I'm sure she knew, word gets around. My son was around 18 months I think when the affair started, 3 1/2 when we reconciled, maybe a little older, timelines get fuzzy. Don't call it separated if that helps, call it I left and was actively seeking a divorce. Only reason it didn't happen was because she lost her job and wanted to move back to NY and live with her Dad while she found work. So I agreed and got a job in NYC and an apartment in Queens while she lived in Orange County and I had to start the process all over again.

I lost the weight because I knew I wasn't putting forward my best effort in all facets not just because I was worried of her cheating. I was more worried of her losing respect for me and looking to divorce than simply cheating.


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

Also combine your recent self improvement and how quickly you hooked up with another women in the past - while separated but not divorced, I wonder if she is posting on another board - I love my husband and I know he loves me, but HE may be cheating on me. Creative writing 101

"I am a reformed WS. We met when I was 18 and he was 23. I got pregnant quickly and we had a child. After returning to work I started an affair, why looking back I don't know but my life became a living hell for two years. It started when the OM called at 3 in the morning and basically hung up on my husband. Within days he found texts between the OM ad myself. Within two weeks he was packed and gone. Within six months he was with another women in a sexual relationship. I never gave up on "us" and after a total of two years since DDay we got back together.

My husband at 38 is a senior VP in his company and will shortly gain his MBA. Although we both make really, really good money there is currently a lot of financial strain caused by owing two homes (one underwater but renting at a slight loss) 3 children, two pre-teen, cars, student loans etc. As you can image the time restraints are huge.

Where we are at now: two years ago my husband was overweight and could not run 1/4 mile. Today he is 50 lbs lighter and recently ran a marathon. I know this is a great thing but recently something is off between us. We snuggle a lot, we have sex 3 or more times a week but I find I am the on initiating a lot. And like I said something is off and he will not tell me. Recently I began dwelling in the past. Specifically when he was with her. I guess oddly enough because I orgasm so easily with him and listen to other women experiences I get protective of what I have. 

I really don't see how he could find the time to cheat on me. I just know if he wanted to he could very easily and the ow will want to stay.

End of creative writing 101. So OP could your wife be triggering and acting out in her own self destructive way?


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

JohnA - you trolling me buddy? LOL, I'm not sure how to respond to you anymore to be honest.


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

Sorry I was writing when you posted your last reply.


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

No trolling. WS trickle truth their spouses. BS share info slowly so I tend to do a lot of tea leaf reading while waiting for the facts to come out. Hence open ending questions, attempts at humor, and seemly off track stories. Hope you got a laugh at my story. By the way any truth to it?

Your last post gave a lot of info but omitted an earlier fact, she chased you to reconcile. Why the change of heart and what did she do or say?

At this point it sounds like the two of you rug swept the affair.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

tornado said:


> I was discussing this with my wife a week ago. A good guy like you (good job, hard worker, good father, and husband) gets sh!t on by a woman that's supposed to love you but some POS guy who won't do anything except what he wants can get all the women he wants. *It truly baffles me why women treat good guys like crap.*


Then you need to read MMSLP, which explains *that*.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Is your net worth negative, excluding student loans? If I were in your position and had a significant negative net worth, I would probably file for bankruptcy if necessary to unload the second house without having to bring money to closing, even though bankruptcy wouldn't do anything about the student loans. That much debt would keep me up at night and make it hard for me to do all the other things I needed to do.


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## MenMarsWomenVenus (Nov 16, 2015)

You sound just like me apart from my wife isn't out of my league, but then I'm no Brad Pitt. 

Not sure what it is maybe they just want security and a big house? I bought her the dream big detached house a month ago thinking this is our fresh start and she couldn't give a crap really she never even mentions anything about it, don't even know who this woman is anymore.


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

MenMarsWomenVenus said:


> You sound just like me apart from my wife isn't out of my league, but then I'm no Brad Pitt.
> 
> Not sure what it is maybe they just want security and a big house? I bought her the dream big detached house a month ago thinking this is our fresh start and she couldn't give a crap really she never even mentions anything about it, don't even know who this woman is anymore.


I'm not sure to be honest, it's funny I could be fine living in a tiny cottage. I'll dig out of the financial strain, the real issue is my wife has boundary issues, and any attempt to communicate with her about anything besides what's for dinner or what show do you want to watch leads to a fight.

I spoke to her about her flirting, it went better than I thought, as she tried to fight I just said, can we please just talk and not fight. But in the end she said she's not flirting and I'm delusional. At a Halloween party anytime I look for my wife there she is with one of our neighbors laughing away, touching his arm, leaning into him. I talk to her for a bit, she's gone, where is she, yep talking with the neighbor again, laughing it up, doing a shot with him with her leg basically between his legs leaning over him to grab the shot. It's clearly flirting and outside of what I would call acceptable boundaries.

But at the end of the day I'm not about to cry and whine and convince her that she's crossing boundaries. I just dial back the intimacy a bit, put on a stiff upper lip and go about my business. Overall I'm 38, in great health, I have a great job, but I think I just reconciled with a rather poor wife. With three kids it's tough to remedy. My son is in H.S. and he is difficult, good kid, gets great grades, plays baseball for the school team, but he is a bit OCD, shows some signs of anxiety and depression at times, and I worry what would happen to his mental health if I left. My two youngest I think would be OK at their age, I think parents splitting while kids are in Jr High and H.S. is the toughest.


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

Hi, 

At one point you stated you didn't know what to say to me after my creating writing effort. I point was to try to convince you that you are in fact very much in her league and not to be insecure. 

I've read your posts on other threads. On your threads your tone is very concerned and annoyed. In your posts on other threads the tone is deeply resentful and furious/rage. 

Her behavior at the Halloween party was not out of bounds, it was a cold heart attempt to provoke and enrage. If I was there and a friend I would confront her and ask her "what the **** she thought she was doing". Your marriage is devolving because of her actions. At this point no matter how you react it is a lose lose situation. 

Get outside help now. There are other threads on how to pick a MC. Once you find one force her to go, because this is a really big deal. In the meanwhile be honest but unemotional, and plan on your own a oust divorce life.


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

Your description of her behavior at the halloween party is really bugging me. Look, men and women have a right to the absolute integrity of their bodies. But she was clearly leading him on, the question is why. Was it to let him to call her or piss you off.

She needs to grow up. Christ that behavior combined with alcohol - classic she said, he said case. There is another poster here who's wife woke up after a Halloween party in a bathroom without pants or panties - "but nothing really happened".


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## Omego (Apr 17, 2013)

knobcreek said:


> At a Halloween party anytime I look for my wife there she is with one of our neighbors laughing away, touching his arm, leaning into him. I talk to her for a bit, she's gone, where is she, yep talking with the neighbor again, laughing it up, doing a shot with him with her leg basically between his legs leaning over him to grab the shot. It's clearly flirting and outside of what I would call acceptable boundaries.


Wow. That's way over the top. However, you are correct in thinking that divorcing at this time would be difficult for your children.
On the other hand, if you are suppressing resentment, they will feel it and that's not good either. Is it possible that your son already feels some of the tension due to his mother's behavior? Children pick up on so much.

Not sure what to tell you. Is the neighbor good-looking? What would she do if you behaved the same way at a party? 

It's sad that she's putting the family in this situation. On the other hand, if she's unhappy and doesn't love you anymore in the romantic sense, maybe she needs to admit it.
I think everyone deserves to be his or her spouse's first choice.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

JohnA said:


> Your marriage is devolving because of her actions. At this point no matter how you react it is a lose lose situation.
> 
> Get outside help now. There are other threads on how to pick a MC. Once you find one force her to go, because this is a really big deal. In the meanwhile be honest but unemotional, and plan on your own a oust divorce life.


:iagree:

They say the toughest years on a kid if the parents divorce are the last year of high school or the first year of college. Idk, but it makes sense. I stayed when my girls were in HS due to all the drama. They were good kids with no significant problems, just the usual emotional over the top drama of teen girls.

I don't regret the decision to stay due to the kids because I think it was a good decision at the time. Though it may not have been a bad decision to leave either! Kids are adaptable, and these days many of their friends will be from divorced homes so there is plenty of peer support.

The downside of waiting is you are losing valuable years from your life. If you wait another 2 years for your son in HS, do you then have younger kids now in or approaching HS? So then you have to delay leaving for them? If so you can see how this becomes a very long delay for you.

It isn't good for the kids to see the discord at home. With your wife's actions I don't see things being able to continue another bunch of years.

I think you force her to go to MC or you start the process of leaving.

You have the right to be unhappy with her actions! Whatever her real motivations were, you have the right to your own feelings and interpretations. She has the obligation to work with you to resolve the issue.

For the record I think your reaction is normal and within reason, and her behavior is out of bounds.


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## sparrow555 (Jun 27, 2015)

knobcreek said:


> I plan on talking to her about flirting with men either in front of me or when I'm not around, she needs to set boundaries. Part of it is she's just a friendly person and that invites attention which can evolve into flirting. Not making excuses for her but that's the way it tends to go. Overall she's a great wife, affectionate, funny (she is my best friend), smart, and determined. I really do love her, but her actions undermine me at times, and when she flirts I go do trigger back to the affair, which sucks and brings on anxiety and panic attacks. I also lament getting back after the affair, I mean the marriage is never the same and I kinda want that feeling of total trust and total dedication with someone, you can't ever have that with a spouse after an affair.* Most of this isn't her fault, she did the right thing to fix the marriage (albeit after two years of separation and sowing her oats), but still she did, *she was transparent, immensely remorseful, and worked hard to be a good wife.



Dude......

No wonder she cannot respect you. Neither will she ever for the rest of your life...

Not only did she have an affair, she continued the affair kept hooking up for a couple more years and got back to you? 

I think you have a huge blind spot for self respect when it comes to her.

you will be 50+ by the time the youngest goes to college...

I am getting depressed just reading some of the details about the debt and your wife...


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

"League" is not determined by physical attributes alone.


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## Hope Shimmers (Jul 10, 2015)

_"I plan on talking to her about flirting with men either in front of me or when I'm not around, she needs to set boundaries. Part of it is she's just a friendly person and that invites attention which can evolve into flirting. Not making excuses for her but that's the way it tends to go. Overall she's a great wife, affectionate, funny (she is my best friend), smart, and determined. I really do love her, but her actions undermine me at times, and when she flirts I go do trigger back to the affair, which sucks and brings on anxiety and panic attacks. I also lament getting back after the affair, I mean the marriage is never the same and I kinda want that feeling of total trust and total dedication with someone, you can't ever have that with a spouse after an affair. Most of this isn't her fault, she did the right thing to fix the marriage (albeit after two years of separation and sowing her oats), but still she did, she was transparent, immensely remorseful, and worked hard to be a good wife."_

OMG. Really???

SHE needs to set boundaries? Perhaps, but since she clearly isn't, then YOU need to set them for her.

In addition, on page 1 of this thread, you said something to the effect of "She doesn't know she's flirting." Implying that therefore it's really not her fault. I call bull**** on that one, and I'm a woman. Trust me. Women KNOW when they are flirting with men. We know.

From the paragraph above you are making excuses for her poor behavior. WHY are you allowing her to flirt with other men? Let's get down to it. I think it was Marc who said earlier in the thread that women are attracted to alpha men. Very true, I can vouch for that because as a woman I am only attracted to alpha men, and why do you think that is??? Do you think she WANTS you to be "okay" with her flirting with other men? Or do you think she wants you to say - hey, no freaking WAY! You are my wife. You don't flirt with other men, same as I don't flirt with other women. If you think I will put up with that **** then there is the door!"

You keep talking about how beautiful she is and how she is somehow deserving of some husband "better" than you. Again, I call bull****. From what you describe, I think you should set her free for awhile and let her see exactly what other men she can get that are "worthy" of her. Give her a good dose of that, and then maybe she will realize what she already has.

But for God's sake, stop making excuses for her behavior, and start setting reasonable limits for what you will put up with in a marriage. She will respect you for it. She isn't going to respect wishy-washy and your putting up with her crap.


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## snerg (Apr 10, 2013)

knobcreek said:


> I don't blow up at her flirting, part of it is her personality and she doesn't even realize she's flirting.


Yes she does.
Don't make excuses for her poor behavior and poor boundaries.




knobcreek said:


> No, no cell phone that I know about, I don't think she's cheating although I wouldn't be shocked by it, in fact relieved by it, at least there would be a reason for this behavior.


The fact that you wouldn't be shocked by an affair - is well, shocking. At some level, you are beginning to detach.




knobcreek said:


> I do think it's just that she thinks she's just too awesome and fabulous to be with someone as ordinary as me. I think that's just what it is, and like I said I'm the best man I've been ever and I can do no more to improve myself, or at least very little at this point.


Why do you put yourself down?
Ordinary? in a few tiny years you've run marathons, risen to a VP position, bought a dream home for your spouse, lost a ton of weight.

You sell yourself far too short my friend.

You need to be in the mind set of "look what you're getting ready to loose"


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

sparrow555 said:


> Dude......
> 
> No wonder she cannot respect you. Neither will she ever for the rest of your life...
> 
> ...


Well you have to understand we were very very young when this happened. When we separated it wasn't like she was blowing the NY Knicks while I cried into my pillow, I was busy living it up too, when we started talking reconciliation I was dating someone and she knew that and that really threw her for a loop. When I say I pulled a 180, I pulled a 180 I didn't speak to her about anything other than our son together, started dating once separated, got a good job, went out with friends. My wife was a real mess when we reconciled, and she did everything at the time she needed to, 100% honesty, complete transparency.

I reconciled so some asswipe didn't raise my son, and my wife was a young single mother with a crap job, the only people she would meet are asswipes looking for sex, or total tools looking for an insta-family (knight in shining armor types, they always turn into possessive nuts), and of course potential child molesters', none are good options for a young boy to grow up around.

If I didn't have a kid I would've left the minute I found out about the affair and never looked back, but kids definitely complicate things. Overall I don't regret my decision to reconcile since I have gained a lot. If this marriage doesn't work, then I'll move on. She's older, has a stable job, and I would trust her judgment more on future partners and who she would bring around my kids. She doesn't "need" a man to take care of her, so that goes a long way to making me more comfortable than 12 years ago.


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

I went back into counseling, one session, not sure what I thought of it. Most of it was the usual trying to figure out if I was abused as a kid, closeted homosexual (I don't understand why therapists always assume when a man seeks therapy he's either sexually abused or gay?) Honestly I understand men much better, if I were gay I think half my issues would be solved. He asked a ton of questions so I'll see where he goes next session.

Anyway he focused in on alcohol, which I don't think is my problem, I like a few drinks when I come home to unwind, I definitely "drink to excess" if you use the standards published by AA like 14 drinks a week means you drink in excess for a man (that's two drinks a day). I can't remember the last time I was actually drunk, I drink just to get to that little warm spot then stop if that makes sense, 2-3 drinks a night. I'm hoping he's not a recovered alcoholic and thinks that's everyone's problem because that won't work for me. There's nothing wrong with enjoying a drink, going to a bar and watching a game, or wine on the couch with the wife. In my hayday I was drinking 6-10 beers a night. When I train for a race I don't touch it, and while losing weight I didn't touch a drink mon-fri for a year. I don't think it's a real issue at this point.

Reading this site and all the stories of women cheating on their husbands got me pissed (this site seems to be 99:1 women:men cheating, not sure if that's indicative of the real world but if so it's a pretty sorry state of affairs for men's prospects), coupled with the BS of her flirting with other men, I basically detached emotionally which she picked up on, at first she yelled and screamed, then kinda broke and became very clingy and emotional. I explained some of my gripes, some of the things from our past we never really dealt with and rug swept, the flirting and lack of boundaries, she wants to go to marriage counseling, but I think she's doing that because she wants to be able to defend herself or turn it around on me, and doesn't want me in IC, she never considered MC until I went to IC. Even when dieting and running and lifting she wasn't supportive. I think she likes me fat, and mentally weak, she feels in control. But since I've lost weight, and looked to go to counseling again and better deal with depression and anxiety she's nervous, clingy, ultra-emotional and affectionate.

After the new year I get my bonus and tax return, this year I get to write off my entire closing costs 12K, 16K in siding on the rental, 10K on a light kitchen reno on the rental, and all the interest paid on both properties so I'm expecting enough on the tax return and bonus to effectively clear our CC debt (any revolving debt not student loans or mortgages) and get about 10K back into savings. From there I'll really just be carrying the two mortgages, but any divorce and our new house can be sold for more than I purchased it for and I get the down back, that would give each of us over 50K to find new accommodations. I'm not there yet, but in the new year I have options that I don't have right now.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

I missed this thread the first time around. Great job on all your personal improvements!

After reading all your posts on this thread, I was really trying to figure out what might be missing because it seems like you have things together. The only thing that popped out for me was your wife flirting and going out with single friends. This is probably exciting for her, she gets that little chemical reaction high when a guy flirts back, etc. Maybe she is one of those people that get bored easily. When you two go out on dates, what do you usually do? Dinner and movie? Maybe plan something a little more adventurous and different? Hiking, rock wall climbing. Maybe others have better suggestions. Just throwing my opinion out there.


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

soccermom2three said:


> Maybe she is one of those people that get bored easily. When you two go out on dates, what do you usually do? Dinner and movie? Maybe plan something a little more adventurous and different? Hiking, rock wall climbing. Maybe others have better suggestions. Just throwing my opinion out there.


Thanks for your input, I've always been pretty spontaneous, but she doesn't share any of my interests, I love hiking, camping, hunting, running, beach, really anything outdoors. I couldn't pay her to hike or camp, she says she would go "glamping".

I loath concerts, I love live music but hate large venues filled with drunks (I love sports too but hate going to games, too crowded, too many drunks), but bought Mumford and Sons tickets and a hotel in Saratoga in June because she loves them. At least twice a year I'll surprise her with a night or two in a town or city we've never been to, Montreal, Philly, Boston, Saratoga, Montauk, Block Island etc...

I do my part, but date night is typically at our same haunts, we have kids so limited time to get out and get back. The marriage has gotten better now that my son can watch the younger ones. For a couple years between her school, my school and work commitments, and the kids we never get out on dates, it was just impossible.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

I think you are doing way too much supposing about what is in her head.

Your theory is that she thinks she is attractive and could do better so she flirts with alot of men and acts miserable at home with you becuase in her mind she could be married to some more attractive guy. In my opinion it is very unlikely that this is your wife' thought process. 

It is far more likely that your looks have nothing to do with anything. Your wife's dissatisfaction comes from the fact that her life and marriage are not satisfying to her. Three kids, a job, financial pressure, a husband with a major career - her life is stressful so when she is home alone with you you are seeing the result of her stress.

If you are a VP at a job, you understand the concept of managing situations and people to achieve an outcome which provides a benefit. You can do this in your marriage too. Your team is your family. Your outcome is martial satisfaction. The benefit is the greater good you create for yourself, your wife and your children.

Now, when you are at work to you allow alot of negative thoughts to stop you from managing your team to attain an outcome? Do you think to yourself our customers proably like our competitor's products better? Do you worry that your employees hate you? Do you worry that the office is ugly? There are so many possible problems and failure modes in your professional life that you avoid allowing to clutter your mind with negativiy so you can focus on your and your team's purpose. Do you see a connection to your marital life here?

So looking at some of the things you brought up.
1. Flirtting. The only thing you should do about flirting is state to your wife that if a woman (describe her behaviors) she is telling a man that she is sexually available to him. And you don't want your wife sending signals to other men that she is sexually avialble to them. No debates.

2. Her attitude at home. You need to manage your family life to provide her happiness and satisfaction. What are your wife's emotional needs? What are things you can do that make her glad that she is married to you? Trial and error is your friend... But it's usually about building her up, appreciating her, making her laugh, making her see the big picture of the benefit she is providing as a mother to her children (i.e. I know it's hard but these kids are going to turn out great becuase of all you do for them)... But there is also a component of you demonstrating lack of tolerance of constant negativity. How you expect to be spoken to. How you expect her to act at home. I.e. "I expect that people who want to be part of this family act like it"... 

3. Time. You will have a very hard time creating a fulfilling marriage if you are working 80 hours per week. It is imperative that you spend alot of time together with your wife. Any man can provide a pay check. That does not make her glad she is marrried to YOU. That can only come from the things you do together and the things that you say to her. Most men will think I married her, I work really hard, so I'm showing her I love her. You have to really spend time daily every day of your life showing, telling, doing in order for her to feel loved and fulfilled in her marriage.


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

knobcreek said:


> A big part is she seems to befriend divorced or single 40 year old women, they're always out drinking, dating...


Ya' think?




knobcreek said:


> ...she did the right thing to fix the marriage (albeit after two years of separation and sowing her oats),


Kind of works with the above quote, no?




knobcreek said:


> I plan on talking to her about flirting with men either in front of me or when I'm not around, she needs to set boundaries. Part of it is she's just a friendly person and that *craves* attention which *is an urge satisfied by* flirting.


Funny how I can change just a few words but it changes the whole meaning of the quote.



knobcreek said:


> I'm also hitting midlife and starting to take stock of my life, mistakes made, paths not traveled, things like that. *I'll probably just snap out of it and things will get back to normal.*


Party girl wives LOVE that attitude in their men.



knobcreek said:


> At a Halloween party anytime I look for my wife there she is with one of our neighbors laughing away, touching his arm, leaning into him. I talk to her for a bit, she's gone, where is she, yep talking with the neighbor again, laughing it up, doing a shot with him with her leg basically between his legs leaning over him to grab the shot. It's clearly flirting and outside of what I would call acceptable boundaries.


And that's IN FRONT of you and other neighbors. Can you IMAGINE when she's out with her pack of fellow cougars at the meat markets until 3AM ?

Well, the thread took a little turn, but I put too much into it to not post this. I'm guessing she agreed to stop playing "hot little third grade teacher wingwoman" to the older gals while they troll the meat markets. If not, I hope my post resonates. 

Your wife is (possibly) not a friendly gal that ends up being a little too close because she wants to please. She is (possibly) an attention ***** who feeds her habit by being the hot little number that draws the meat to the trap while the 40 something divorce's feed at the bars. 

Hire a PI. Get cell footage. I'll bet you have NO CLUE how these gals act when they're out. I'll bet you don't even know where they go, do you?


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

Hicks said:


> 2. Her attitude at home. You need to manage your family life to provide her happiness and satisfaction. What are your wife's emotional needs? What are things you can do that make her glad that she is married to you? Trial and error is your friend... But it's usually about building her up, appreciating her, making her laugh, making her see the big picture of the benefit she is providing as a mother to her children (i.e. I know it's hard but these kids are going to turn out great becuase of all you do for them)... But there is also a component of you demonstrating lack of tolerance of constant negativity. How you expect to be spoken to. How you expect her to act at home. I.e. "I expect that people who want to be part of this family act like it"...
> 
> 3. Time. You will have a very hard time creating a fulfilling marriage if you are working 80 hours per week. It is imperative that you spend alot of time together with your wife. Any man can provide a pay check. That does not make her glad she is marrried to YOU. That can only come from the things you do together and the things that you say to her. Most men will think I married her, I work really hard, so I'm showing her I love her. You have to really spend time daily every day of your life showing, telling, doing in order for her to feel loved and fulfilled in her marriage.


I get all this, trust me I've taken a hard introspective look at myself and what I can change, it's why I finished college, lost weight, started going for my MBA, went to therapy (and back to therapy) I'm honestly trying to improve myself. And I can say I can really do very little more to make her glad to be married to me at this point. She either wants to or doesn't at this point, and most signs point to not.

I'm not sitting back on my laurels and just working and thinking that should be enough at all. I am absolutely trying to meet her needs and have been for a long time. You're not telling me anything I don't know and I'm surprised you get this impression from my posts in the this thread to be honest.

As for working 80 hours, it's not always 80 hours that's a rough average, there's nothing I can do about that except leave my job, to do that I would likely need to to NYC to match my salary which means two hours each way on a train so I'm gone 80 hours anyway.


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## jsmart (Mar 14, 2015)

MachoMcCoy said:


> Ya' think?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was actually thinking the same thing. Wives doing the girls night out at bar/clubs with younger singles or divorcee's is a serious problem. 

If she's flirting that heavily with you there I would not be surprised if she crosses the line occasionally. Especially if she wants to seem young and with it. A make out sessions with a "hot" guy that catches her eye or she finds dances "sexy," with her friends egging her on.... Not to mention that teachers are a career FULL of cheating wives. She'll explain it away as "it was just a kiss."


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Knob,
The truth is often powerful. The truth delivered in a highly compressed form, is a type of art. 

The format is every bit as clean as it is effective. For instance the following declarative statement delivered in a low affect manner:

When you do X, I love you less. 

There is no follow up statement from you on this type comment. It is a discrete, stand alone message. She can howl at the moon over it. Doesn't change the truth. And let her tell you that you're insecure or controlling or whatever. Just smile and shrug. 












knobcreek said:


> I get all this, trust me I've taken a hard introspective look at myself and what I can change, it's why I finished college, lost weight, started going for my MBA, went to therapy (and back to therapy) I'm honestly trying to improve myself. And I can say I can really do very little more to make her glad to be married to me at this point. She either wants to or doesn't at this point, and most signs point to not.
> 
> I'm not sitting back on my laurels and just working and thinking that should be enough at all. I am absolutely trying to meet her needs and have been for a long time. You're not telling me anything I don't know and I'm surprised you get this impression from my posts in the this thread to be honest.
> 
> As for working 80 hours, it's not always 80 hours that's a rough average, there's nothing I can do about that except leave my job, to do that I would likely need to to NYC to match my salary which means two hours each way on a train so I'm gone 80 hours anyway.


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

Met with my therapist again, I'm determined to stay in therapy for the long term and work through this. My wife and I are both children of alcoholics, her parents were much worse with her mother dying of alcoholism at 53 (my father died in a DWI accident when I was 12). My wife is affectionate but emotionally unavailable, she won't discuss us, or talk about issues to try and resolve them, it's all a big secret, hush hush, everything is fine, typical of a child of an alcoholic. My wife also likes nights out, and with her friends will binge drink until inebriated (sign of an alcoholic), she leaves the bills to me that's my worry, all planning to me, discipline of the children to me, I do 90% of the heavy lifting, cooking, cleaning, fixing up the house, essentially she's like having another child in the house and the therapist pointed this out. And it's true, she's like an unruly teenager.

My therapist doesn't sound confident that the marriage is going to make it based on the fact that we never worked through the affairs and a few other breaches of trust along the way. With only me in therapy he says it's unlikely I will want to be with her based on the way she acts once I come through the tunnel on the other side. He gave a statistic of nearly 90% divorce rate when one spouse seeks therapy and the other that needs it doesn't.

I'm going to talk to a lawyer just to see what my rights are and if I go down this path what I can expect with the process in my state.

I'm definitely still harboring a lot of anger and resentment towards her and anger at the affairs and the fact that she really seems to prioritize everyone and everything over me. I need to work through all that and move on with my life.

My wife's friend is getting divorced and she'll spend hours each night working her through issues and talking to her, but won't spend one minute discussing our marriage, a bit nuts. She's out tonight, going out Thursday, and likely will have a house full of her single friends before they go bar hopping on Saturday. Each night she's glued to her phone texting her friend because she "needs her" she's "going through a tough time", it's her friends third divorce because she cheated on her husband.. again... I mean come on, she must know the script by now?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

It takes two to make a marriage work.

I think your therapist is dead on. Once you start to deal with your issues, I am willing to bet you will have outgrown her.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

I didn't bring anything up and wasn't planning on it, my wife came home from going out and said she has anxiety about me going to therapy, when we started talking and actually getting to the bottom of things, she flipped out and started laying out ultimatums which I outright dismissed. She doesn't get to lay the ground rules for my recovery and what I need to get through her affairs and behavior. She didn't take it well, threatened divorce, then went upstairs and started screaming I'm doing this so I don't have to take her to my company Christmas party. I mean, we're talking about our marriage and major life issues and she's concerned about some invented ulterior motive about a Christmas party, this can't be normal? I mean she doesn't get IT at all at this point.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Nope. Are you prepared to move on without her?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## jdawg2015 (Feb 12, 2015)

MEM11363 said:


> When you do X, I love you less.
> 
> There is no follow up statement from you on this type comment. It is a discrete, stand alone message. She can howl at the moon over it. Doesn't change the truth. And let her tell you that you're insecure or controlling or whatever. Just smile and shrug.


Yup. That statement is money because it cuts right to the bone.


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> Nope. Are you prepared to move on without her?


I'm getting there, I've dealt with depression and anxiety for most of my life, I'm determined to beat it this time and if it means she's not a part of my life after then I'm ready for that.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

knobcreek said:


> I didn't bring anything up and wasn't planning on it, my wife came home from going out and said she has anxiety about me going to therapy, when we started talking and actually getting to the bottom of things, she flipped out and started laying out ultimatums which I outright dismissed. She doesn't get to lay the ground rules for my recovery and what I need to get through her affairs and behavior. She didn't take it well, threatened divorce, then went upstairs and started screaming I'm doing this so I don't have to take her to my company Christmas party. I mean, we're talking about our marriage and major life issues and she's concerned about some invented ulterior motive about a Christmas party, this can't be normal? I mean she doesn't get IT at all at this point.


She is comfortable with the previous arrangement where she gets to walk all over you have affairs, flirt etc. You are now changing the parameters of your relationship and with the therapy changing into a better man who is less prepared to be a doormat. This is why she is acting like a petulant child.
She has so much of her own crap to deal with but refuses to face it, instead seeks the external via her friends, going out etc. She is angry with you because she knows she is losing her grip on you and you will no longer put up with what you used to put up with. She is caught between a rock and a hard place thus the retaliation.

You keep going to therapy and tell her as it is helping you as an individual as she hasn't done anything to help you move on. Eventually maybe you will outgrow her. Put the fear of God into her at this point, tell her she doesn't get to call the shots anymore, if she wants a divorce to go right ahead.


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## Tobyboy (Jun 13, 2013)

Money that she already made plans to go out with her friends/boyfriend on the night of your Christmas party. If you listen closely....you can hear the manipulation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jdawg2015 (Feb 12, 2015)

Tobyboy said:


> Money that she already made plans to go out with her friends/boyfriend on the night of your Christmas party. If you listen closely....you can hear the manipulation.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Subconscious thought for sure.


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## jsmart (Mar 14, 2015)

knobcreek said:


> Met with my therapist again, I'm determined to stay in therapy for the long term and work through this. My wife and I are both children of alcoholics, her parents were much worse with her mother dying of alcoholism at 53 (my father died in a DWI accident when I was 12). My wife is affectionate but emotionally unavailable, she won't discuss us, or talk about issues to try and resolve them, it's all a big secret, hush hush, everything is fine, typical of a child of an alcoholic. My wife also likes nights out, and with her friends will binge drink until inebriated (sign of an alcoholic), she leaves the bills to me that's my worry, all planning to me, discipline of the children to me, I do 90% of the heavy lifting, cooking, cleaning, fixing up the house, essentially she's like having another child in the house and the therapist pointed this out. And it's true, she's like an unruly teenager.
> 
> My therapist doesn't sound confident that the marriage is going to make it based on the fact that we never worked through the affairs and a few other breaches of trust along the way. With only me in therapy he says it's unlikely I will want to be with her based on the way she acts once I come through the tunnel on the other side. He gave a statistic of nearly 90% divorce rate when one spouse seeks therapy and the other that needs it doesn't.
> 
> ...


She's stating what she wants. For you to not go to the Christmas party, so she can go stag. The more details you're providing us the worst this situation seems. 

Going bar hoping? Hanging out with divorcees? Those are deadly for a marriage. Your wife is learning how to divorce you. She's seeing up close what it entails. Divorcees would love nothing more than to influence a few girls to do the same with their marriages. The fact that she's even friends with a serial cheater is bad news but to be so intimately involved tells me she is probably thinking of doing it herself.

I think OP should get a friend that she doesn't know to spy on them or better yet, get a PI. I would not be surprised if she was occasionally hooking up with dudes. At the very least dancing raunchily and making out with various dudes if not a steady guy that meets them.


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

The Christmas party is my Christmas party, she claims I started a fight so I don't have to take her, she's sure there's another woman at my office that I'm involved with. Why she thinks this I have no idea. The only thing I can think of was a friend of mine (a woman) from work told me she saw my wife at a local bar and was with a group of girls talking to three guys. My wife flipped at this and said she's a liar (she isn't, she explained the group and I know who it was from her description), and that I must be having an affair with her. I also didn't start any fight, any attempt to talk with her about anything other than "what show do you want to watch" is "starting a fight". She claims the affairs are old news and she's not going to discuss them. Which would be fine if we ever dealt with them, but the issue is she's said this for 12 years, she's also since then (I didn't divulge this immediately) two years into reconciliation I found out about a first affair she lied about, 5 years ago I caught her on facebook asking a single male co-worker out for drinks after work (she was waiting tables at the time) and this was when we were I thought very solid. She claims it's no big deal and they all go out for drinks. So to me her behavior is the same, it hasn't changed at all. She's wrote off the affairs as being young, and inviting a man out for drinks as "no big deal", so how would I ever trust her? Toss in about 6 years of denying me sex right after my daughter was born (this has since been remedied due to physical and other changes I put into place). She doesn't seem to understand any of this being a problem, and wants desperately for me to just shut up, watch the kids, let her go out, and never talk about it.

Her one friend was over this weekend, she went out with her Saturday night, she went to yoga with her twice, has lunch with her basically everyday, exchanges text messages constantly, all night long, talks for hours with her, is going to dinner with her Thursday, is this a friendship or an emotional affair? It seems really obsessive and bizarre to me, but granted I'm not a woman, maybe this is normal? I asked her, do you believe you invest more time in your relationship with 'new friend' or with me? Do you believe you spend more quality time with 'new friend' or with me? She wouldn't answer and just yelled at me.

Either way it's definitely time for the hard 180, if it ends my marriage so be it. I'm in good shape but going for jacked, my MBA program starts in two weeks, and I'll pour myself into my work to gun for a GVP or SVP position. And I'm stopping all heavy lifting and emotional support to this woman.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

knobcreek said:


> The Christmas party is my Christmas party, she claims I started a fight so I don't have to take her, she's sure there's another woman at my office that I'm involved with. Why she thinks this I have no idea.


That is called "projection". She is a lying cheater, so of course she thinks you are the same.


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## sparrow555 (Jun 27, 2015)

I wrote a long detailed post before my browser crashed, twice.. The short version is you have absolutely no balls when it comes to your wife. She totally steam rolled you when you started a discussion and you described the discussion as "it went better than I thought." when in reality it was a disaster.

You start the discussion wit "as she tried to fight I just said, can we please just talk and not fight" - Way too defensive and an indication of the power dynamic


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## sparrow555 (Jun 27, 2015)

knobcreek said:


> My wife's friend is getting divorced and she'll spend hours each night working her through issues and talking to her, but won't spend one minute discussing our marriage, a bit nuts. She's out tonight, going out Thursday, and likely will have a house full of her single friends before they go bar hopping on Saturday. Each night she's glued to her phone texting her friend because she "needs her" she's "going through a tough time", it's her friends third divorce because she cheated on her husband.. again... I mean come on, she must know the script by now?


Tell that to her face!!!


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## sparrow555 (Jun 27, 2015)

knobcreek said:


> The Christmas party is my Christmas party, she claims I started a fight so I don't have to take her, she's sure there's another woman at my office that I'm involved with. Why she thinks this I have no idea. The only thing I can think of was a friend of mine (a woman) from work told me she saw my wife at a local bar and was with a group of girls talking to three guys. My wife flipped at this and said she's a liar (she isn't, she explained the group and I know who it was from her description), and that I must be having an affair with her. I also didn't start any fight, any attempt to talk with her about anything other than "what show do you want to watch" is "starting a fight". She claims the affairs are old news and she's not going to discuss them. Which would be fine if we ever dealt with them, but the issue is she's said this for 12 years, she's also since then (I didn't divulge this immediately) two years into reconciliation I found out about a first affair she lied about, 5 years ago I caught her on facebook asking a single male co-worker out for drinks after work (she was waiting tables at the time) and this was when we were I thought very solid. She claims it's no big deal and they all go out for drinks. So to me her behavior is the same, it hasn't changed at all. She's wrote off the affairs as being young, and inviting a man out for drinks as "no big deal", so how would I ever trust her? Toss in about 6 years of denying me sex right after my daughter was born (this has since been remedied due to physical and other changes I put into place). She doesn't seem to understand any of this being a problem, and wants desperately for me to just shut up, watch the kids, let her go out, and never talk about it.
> 
> Her one friend was over this weekend, she went out with her Saturday night, she went to yoga with her twice, has lunch with her basically everyday, exchanges text messages constantly, all night long, talks for hours with her, is going to dinner with her Thursday, is this a friendship or an emotional affair? It seems really obsessive and bizarre to me, but granted I'm not a woman, maybe this is normal? I asked her, do you believe you invest more time in your relationship with 'new friend' or with me? Do you believe you spend more quality time with 'new friend' or with me? She wouldn't answer and just yelled at me.
> 
> Either way it's definitely time for the hard 180, if it ends my marriage so be it. I'm in good shape but going for jacked, my MBA program starts in two weeks, and I'll pour myself into my work to gun for a GVP or SVP position. And I'm stopping all heavy lifting and emotional support to this woman.



Your wife behavior is not in anyway normal. These are not usual couple fights.

I will be very surprised if that affair was all she had until now or if she isn't in one right now..She sounds like a serious bar troll.

If evidence is what you need, you might have to snoop. You are in serious denial over the state of your marriage. 




> My wife also likes nights out, and with her friends will binge drink until inebriated (sign of an alcoholic), she leaves the bills to me that's my worry, all planning to me, discipline of the children to me, I do 90% of the heavy lifting, cooking, cleaning, fixing up the house, essentially she's like having another child in the house and the therapist pointed this out.


I would use different words to describe her.


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

Your doing great at figuring out were you are, and where you and your children are going. 

Are you completely transparent to your wife (she knows all passwords and accounts)? If not do so, DON'T ask her to do the same. This makes it a shyt test. If she does it shows some hope, if she does not - well you know that answer too. Try to act in ways that you want her to behave towards you. You already are in many ways. After all you were not hanging all over someone's else's wife at the party.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

It comes down to this.

1. You have to make yourself a person and provide a marriage to the best of your abilities that your wife would want to choose. Seems you have done that already.

2. Tell her that certain aspects of the marriage are not working for you, that you require a loving and mutually satisfying relationship. That you require to be treated respectfully and as a priority. And that you want to give your utmost to any female that occupies the position of your wife. And ask her to decide if she is "in" or she is "out".

3. If she decides she is in, you specifically tell her what you require in a wife (her attidude, her priorization of your needs, her excessive time with her friends, dealing with her affairs your way, her behavior... Any and all things she is doing that are unworthy of your standards of a wife) and remind her that it's her choice to be in our out.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

knobcreek said:


> I didn't bring anything up and wasn't planning on it, my wife came home from going out and said she has anxiety about me going to therapy, when we started talking and actually getting to the bottom of things, she flipped out and started laying out ultimatums which I outright dismissed. She doesn't get to lay the ground rules for my recovery and what I need to get through her affairs and behavior. She didn't take it well, threatened divorce, then went upstairs and started screaming I'm doing this so I don't have to take her to my company Christmas party. I mean, we're talking about our marriage and major life issues and she's concerned about some invented ulterior motive about a Christmas party, this can't be normal? I mean she doesn't get IT at all at this point.


Yes, she's scared to death about you going to therapy and learning to set serious boundaries with serious consequences.

Beyond that, most of what she's doing is trying to manipulate you with guilt and fear. I doubt the Christmas party is really that big a deal to her, but she is using it as a bludgeon to get you back where she wants you.

I presume you're well aware of the emotional issues she likely has due to being the child of an alcoholic. One of them is going to be fear of abandonment. If she fears you're going to leave her it will trigger a strong fear based emotional response. This is like a phobia, regardless of the reality of the situation it will cause her to feel panic. So try to detach emotionally from the content of her outbursts and discussions.


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## sparrow555 (Jun 27, 2015)

Funny I found this part in the Sexodus thread you were looking at



> One professional researcher in his late thirties, about whom I have been conversing on this topic for some months, puts it spicily: “For the past, at least, 25 years, I’ve been told to do more and more to keep a woman. But nobody’s told me what they’re doing to keep me.
> 
> “I can tell you as a heterosexual married male in management, who didn’t drop out of society, the message from the chicks is: ‘It’s not just preferable that you should **** off, but imperative. You must pay for everything and make everything work; but you yourself and your preferences and needs can **** off and die.'”



pretty relevant in your case..

You are working yourself to death both professionally and at home and you seem to link your value as a man to it.


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## jsmart (Mar 14, 2015)

Your wife is an attention wh0re and based on your description of how she treats you, combined with the bar hopping and hanging with divorcees, I place it on a VERY high probability that she's casually involved with someone, nothing serious to her but enough to turn off her feelings and respect for you. Like a clubbing friend with benefits. 

I've reread your 1st post on this thread and see you've made some serious improvements in yourself. physically, educationally, fatherly, career, and in just basically handling your $h!t. 

To be honest it sounds very impressive but you need to own it from a masculine frame. Your wife doesn't see it. To her, the scvm in the bars have it going on, you are just a boring co-parent/roommate who she gives duty sex to.

You're at a crossroads, more of the same is a losing proposition. Trying to snap her out of it by filing D and going 180 may work but is it worth it? She's been high maintenance for too long. I would bet a man like you could get a woman just as attractive but who can appreciate a good man. 

Before you can decide, find out if she's involved with someone. Which I think she is. Only a wayward would go bar hopping a few times a week with a 3 year old at home. If she is, your decision is made for you.


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

This is link from Marduk's post about where he was and what he learned after one year. He moved on buy it works even if a couple reconcile

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/27426-what-ive-learned-past-year-good-news-story.html


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## jdawg2015 (Feb 12, 2015)

knob, line up your ducks now.

Get a bank account to squirrel away money. Do you have brother or sister you can trust to put in their name so during the divorce the account is not in your name?

I would totally line yourself up. Use this time to complete the grad degree, you get couple years with kids, and you get a wife who won't be up your azz. Tuck away money so you can execute the exit when the time comes. PERFECT deal!!

One of the harder things when divorcing is cash flow especially when you start having to maintain the house and renting a second place, day care arrangements, etc. More prepared you are the easier it becomes to stop letting logistics holding you back from happiness.

It's clear to me that you will never be truly happy with your wife. The affairs, lack of trust, and self doubt you are experiencing don't have to be status quo. Use this time to get your sh|t in gear and execute the plan....


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

I'm going to try to say on point for a change.



knobcreek said:


> a friend of mine (a woman) from work told me she saw my wife at a local bar and was with a group of girls talking to three guys. My wife flipped at this and said she's a liar


Does anyone see anything odd about that statement? I almost want to let it sit for a day to see what you all think, but that would be making it about ME and MY point. That's a little more of a thread jack that even I plan on right now. 

But if I DID let it sit for a day, I'll bet nobody would get it. And I find it odd that nobody would get it. And if you just read the my reasoning in isolation, you'd declare me loony and move on. So to help make my point, if you'll indulge me, I'd like to introduce you to a few people. Some I know, some I just met on these boards. 

*A very close friend of mine* was married to a party girl bar wh0r# (he wouldn't describe her that way) for 20 years. I've never done it, but I'd like to ask him to describe, play-by play, what he thought to be an average night out for her in each of these two categories:

- When she is at a local bar (she is an alcoholic as well) drinking "by herself". My friend knows she never spends a dime but I can guarantee his answer would sidestep that point and any mention of how it was done. If she did that once a month for 20 years that's 240 times his wife hustled drinks at bars by herself and he's never really thought about it.
- Clubbing 'till 3AM with a lone wingwoman. Those must have been some pretty wild party nights. I'll bet he never really thought about it. 

No, I never spoke to him about it directly but I've known him for a long time. This has been my issue for a long time. I've timidly pried "evidence" out of him over the past few years. A different friend once said of a different circumstance "denial is an amazing thing". It is indeed. I think reality vs. what he would say would be amazing. But the main point is that I sincerely believe he just never thought about it.

*My Wife*: If party girl's husband was my close friend it stands to reason that she and my wife were close. I never thought about it until one summer many years ago when she recruited my wife to be above mentioned "wingwoman". That summer ended with a miscalculation on her part that wouldn't allow it to be written off as a night of "just dancing". 

When years later I needed to bring closure to it, I actually started to have that conversation with her (it didn't go well). When I asked her about the men, what part they played, she said "I don't know what it is about me. They never hit on me". She also implied that ONCE a couple of men tried to cut into their man-free bubble, they shot them down and it presumably never happened again on all those two-girl GNO's. To this day it is an unspoken reality that she never even SPOKE to a strange man on those nights out. (before you go off on a tangent, I realize I have my own denial but this is different. I at least know what went on). She somehow thinks that explanation worked. She thinks I believed her. Kind of a reversal of my point to prove it...

*Many posters over the years on this and other sites*. I have asked MANY times: "What do you THINK SHE DOES on these bar-skanking excursions"? No response. EVER. "Just get somebody (a buddy she doesn't know, a PI would be better) to just take a quick look-see to see what's up". Not one reply. Ever. The easiest infidelity to "catch" a cheater and NOBODY does it. 

All of these posters that go into a long story about how their wife will spend all of their time with their new friend. He will describe a person like my friends wife then say: "She goes out EVERY Friday night with her recently divorced friend leaving me to take the kids to their Saturday morning practices while she sleeps it off. I mean, why can't they switch to Saturday? Then she can sleep in while I just take the kids to church. I'm the only one that does that anyhow."

No THOUGHT to what the previous night was like.

*Mr. and Mrs. Knobcreek*: You see where I was going with that post way up there? Is Knobcreek supposed to really think his wife NEVER talks to men when she's out with the cougars? I need to run, so I don;t have time. But if I DID have time, I'd post all of those quotes that have me thinking that he believes her. Or at least "never really thought about it".

There have been a lot of men, dude. A LOT. And you don't know about ANY OF THEM. She may never have swapped any fluids, but it would still be more than enough top put me into therapy. I think it would you too, but it's not even part of your equation.

Fascinating.


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

I get the "guys never hit on me" thing all the time too, I don't believe it, more lies from her, she lies all the time when convenient.

She cheated, caused me mass depression and anxiety for years, two years later we reconciled, I probably just rug swept it, I thought everything was great and boom, I see her on facebook.com asking a single bartender out for drinks after work. This floored me, I don't know why I was shocked after the two years I went through with her, but I was, I thought we were great together. Then two years ago she all the sudden wants to go out all the time, befriends all single or divorcing friends to binge drink with, coming home all hours, again my anxiety and depression is through the roof during this cycle.

I'm getting off this roller-coaster, no one needs to put up with this. The next few months will be hard, I'll get through the holidays and then tell her I want to separate. I have to stay in the house due to financial reasons, but the tax return and my bonus will clear our debt for the most part, and our new house has 100K of equity so once we sell we'll be able to go our separate ways.

I'm going to take a sabbatical from this site, I have school starting soon anyway and I need to focus on work. This site helps, and it doesn't. I'll update this thread in a couple months.


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

Plan on nothing less then 50/50 custody.


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

knobcreek said:


> I get the "guys never hit on me" thing all the time too, I don't believe it..


Did you ever spy on her? See what's up? What she does? It won't take long. There is surely not much time where she ISN'T talking to, dancing with, flirting with, or doing god knows what with a man. It's WHY they go. But you know that, right?


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

So I took her to my Christmas party and after a couple glasses of wine she starts telling me to "point her out", I'm like "point who out" "what the heck are you talking about, we're at my company party?". Just by looking at her face I can tell I have to get us out of there or they'll be a scene, there are times when she is impossible to reason with. So I had to leave my Christmas party unannounced, which I hate doing to avoid an embarrassing scene.

We get home and she comes out with all these insecurities she has, how she's sure I'm cheating on her (remember the woman who told me she saw her at the bar that I work with?), apparently she's been convinced I've been seeing this women and confiding in her about our marriage. She has zero evidence of this, but she thinks it for some reason. She's worried I'm going to leave her, she feels old, I'm aging better (I'm not, she literally looks in her mid 20's at 34), etc... Worried that the weight loss and where I've gone in life is evidence I'm moving on from her and she's upset about it. We talked for three hours, didn't argue and actually talked, it was weird. The kids knew something was up and they were uncomfortably coming into our room to interrupt our talking. 

I'm still in IC, she wants to go to IC and MC which I supported. But the talk was likely the most we've communicated ever in our marriage. She brought up things about me which were tough to hear but I was glad to hear it instead of how great I am, then see her act like a ****, that made no sense. We followed this fight up with some banging sex and snuggle time over the weekend (I'm failing miserably at the 180).

It's bad but I am addicted to this woman, she's like heroin to me. She's promised to stop all flirting openly or otherwise, she wants both of us to stop nights out as she admitted she's nervous wreck when I do it, she admitted she flirts to make me jealous and piss me off and create a fight and inevitable make up session. She finds the up and down exciting and when I'm jealous and angry it arouses her, it shows her I still care enough for her to get upset when she does this. She readily admits this is totally fvcked up and she needs therapy for it and many other things.

We'll see how this progresses.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

knobcreek said:


> So I took her to my Christmas party and after a couple glasses of wine she starts telling me to "point her out", I'm like "point who out" "what the heck are you talking about, we're at my company party?". Just by looking at her face I can tell I have to get us out of there or they'll be a scene, there are times when she is impossible to reason with. So I had to leave my Christmas party unannounced, which I hate doing to avoid an embarrassing scene.
> 
> We get home and she comes out with all these insecurities she has, how she's sure I'm cheating on her (remember the woman who told me she saw her at the bar that I work with?), apparently she's been convinced I've been seeing this women and confiding in her about our marriage. She has zero evidence of this, but she thinks it for some reason. She's worried I'm going to leave her, she feels old, I'm aging better (I'm not, she literally looks in her mid 20's at 34), etc... Worried that the weight loss and where I've gone in life is evidence I'm moving on from her and she's upset about it. We talked for three hours, didn't argue and actually talked, it was weird. The kids knew something was up and they were uncomfortably coming into our room to interrupt our talking.
> 
> ...


You and @marduk have similar wives, brother.

His input would likely be helpful in this situation.

Either way, that sounds like a productive talk. Now just watch her actions, not her words. If she backs what she says she will do up with action, it is a success. 

But do not let the words convince you that what your eyes are seeing is not true.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

knobcreek said:


> It's bad but I am addicted to this woman, she's like heroin to me. She's promised to stop all flirting openly or otherwise, she wants both of us to stop nights out as she admitted she's nervous wreck when I do it, she admitted she flirts to make me jealous and piss me off and create a fight and inevitable make up session. She finds the up and down exciting and when I'm jealous and angry it arouses her, it shows her I still care enough for her to get upset when she does this. She readily admits this is totally fvcked up and she needs therapy for it and many other things.
> 
> We'll see how this progresses.


I haven't read your thread before but read the whole thing just now. This is a good update. Hopefully you are on the right track.

If she is flirting to make you jealous, that is actually hopeful.

However, I worry it is more than that. I worry that she has such deep insecurities that she will always seek out male attention.

There are ways you could handle this that would give her the attention she needs without her flirting with others, but likely she will always push your boundaries on that.

Anyway, keep us posted.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

KC,
Showed you her true self. 

Christmas came early in the house of KC this year. Nothing under the tree will even approximate that gift. 




knobcreek said:


> So I took her to my Christmas party and after a couple glasses of wine she starts telling me to "point her out", I'm like "point who out" "what the heck are you talking about, we're at my company party?". Just by looking at her face I can tell I have to get us out of there or they'll be a scene, there are times when she is impossible to reason with. So I had to leave my Christmas party unannounced, which I hate doing to avoid an embarrassing scene.
> 
> We get home and she comes out with all these insecurities she has, how she's sure I'm cheating on her (remember the woman who told me she saw her at the bar that I work with?), apparently she's been convinced I've been seeing this women and confiding in her about our marriage. She has zero evidence of this, but she thinks it for some reason. She's worried I'm going to leave her, she feels old, I'm aging better (I'm not, she literally looks in her mid 20's at 34), etc... Worried that the weight loss and where I've gone in life is evidence I'm moving on from her and she's upset about it. We talked for three hours, didn't argue and actually talked, it was weird. The kids knew something was up and they were uncomfortably coming into our room to interrupt our talking.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

KC,
The subtext here is incredibly valuable. Reason this seems workable is remarkably simple. 

There wasn't a hint, not even a trace of blameshifting. She totally owned her behavior. Is ashamed of it. Very clearly loves you a lot. 

She craves excitement - volatility. There are less destructive ways to experience that. 

Situation like this, best affect is gentle. She is ALREADY freaked out by herself. And she definitely doesn't consider herself your equal. 

Wants your help. You are very clearly HER heroin. 




knobcreek said:


> So I took her to my Christmas party and after a couple glasses of wine she starts telling me to "point her out", I'm like "point who out" "what the heck are you talking about, we're at my company party?". Just by looking at her face I can tell I have to get us out of there or they'll be a scene, there are times when she is impossible to reason with. So I had to leave my Christmas party unannounced, which I hate doing to avoid an embarrassing scene.
> 
> We get home and she comes out with all these insecurities she has, how she's sure I'm cheating on her (remember the woman who told me she saw her at the bar that I work with?), apparently she's been convinced I've been seeing this women and confiding in her about our marriage. She has zero evidence of this, but she thinks it for some reason. She's worried I'm going to leave her, she feels old, I'm aging better (I'm not, she literally looks in her mid 20's at 34), etc... Worried that the weight loss and where I've gone in life is evidence I'm moving on from her and she's upset about it. We talked for three hours, didn't argue and actually talked, it was weird. The kids knew something was up and they were uncomfortably coming into our room to interrupt our talking.
> 
> ...


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

MEM11363 said:


> KC,
> The subtext here is incredibly valuable. Reason this seems workable is remarkably simple.
> 
> There wasn't a hint, not even a trace of blameshifting. She totally owned her behavior. Is ashamed of it. Very clearly loves you a lot.
> ...


The one thing that kept me hopeful was intimacy and hugging, kissing, sex never waned or stopped in the past two years. We have date nights, foot rubs on the couch with some wine (her feet not mine, she hates feet). I wouldn't stay in a bad and declining situation with no real hope, but this does give me some hope. In the end I do love this woman immensely and she's the mother of my kids, we were each others first love. It's really tough to just abandon that and toss it away. I really don't have much of an adult reality without her.

The affair, 12 or so years ago I walked out the door because it wasn't a situation I could remain in, she was lying, still maintaining contact and I left for two years. I would do it again if I needed to, but for now I don't feel we're there yet.

I'm hopefully optimistic that we're maturing into the second phase of our marriage and we can both move on from previous sh*t we've done in the past.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

That bit below about the high level of physicality - was why I believed what you were seeing was 'noise' - not the 'real' signal. 

Most women - just aren't highly sexual with a guy they don't like, love AND respect. 

It will help a lot to figure out how much of her behavior is driven by the need for reassurance that you are 'in love' with her. And how much is driven by a raw need for emotional volatility. 

It can be super helpful to be very intentional in your messaging. For example, she starts flirting: 

Calm, firm voice: There's better ways to get my attention, ways that don't cause me to love you less. 

She just engaged in a massive power transfer. You've created a lot of trust. That trust, plus the fear triggered by your 180 produced that acknowledgment/apology. 

All I can say is that the 180, while effective, ought to be a tool of last resort. 



QUOTE=knobcreek;14406082]The one thing that kept me hopeful was intimacy and hugging, kissing, sex never waned or stopped in the past two years. We have date nights, foot rubs on the couch with some wine (her feet not mine, she hates feet). I wouldn't stay in a bad and declining situation with no real hope, but this does give me some hope. In the end I do love this woman immensely and she's the mother of my kids, we were each others first love. It's really tough to just abandon that and toss it away. I really don't have much of an adult reality without her.

The affair, 12 or so years ago I walked out the door because it wasn't a situation I could remain in, she was lying, still maintaining contact and I left for two years. I would do it again if I needed to, but for now I don't feel we're there yet.

I'm hopefully optimistic that we're maturing into the second phase of our marriage and we can both move on from previous sh*t we've done in the past.[/QUOTE]


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## jdawg2015 (Feb 12, 2015)

knobcreek, what are you addicted too about her? Her looks the only thing?
Tell us what you like about her. More than superficial stuff, I'd like to know what it is about her that you are willing to accept pain and hurt.

Be damn careful here. She has cheated more than once. History repeats my friend. Right now she's freaked out about losing the gravy train and being a single mom with 2 kids (not exactly a desirable place for a woman).

Tread very lightly. Will you really every be able to let this go? Can you truly get past it?

You need to **** test her. Not saying this to create issues, but you definitely need a fair amount of **** testing to see if it the slightest thing has her running back to the shi|tbag.

Don't let the heartache and financial/logistics portion of this keep you in a relationship in which deep down you are miserable. If you can't trust a woman, she's useless to you.


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## jdawg2015 (Feb 12, 2015)

MEM11363 said:


> That bit below about the high level of physicality - was why I believed what you were seeing was 'noise' - not the 'real' signal.
> 
> Most women - just aren't highly sexual with a guy they don't like, love AND respect.
> 
> ...


MEM, I think you are seeing a woman who got caught, has 2 kids and now seeing the reality of her decision.

knob can not easily just let things pass and she repeats the pattern which will happen.

He needs a very calculated plan to $hit test her. And over a prolonged period.

IMO his marriage is not healthy otherwise for me to say he has good chance of successful reconciliation. 

He's even admitted he's addicted to her. That's not a power shift. A night of sex with her and she has him roped in and holds the cards.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

She probably just wants something she thought she couldn't have. Happens a lot.

Set boundaries and tell her she crosses one time you're gone for good and will easily find her replacement. Do it now not later if you're sure you want to work on this.


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

jdawg2015 said:


> knobcreek, what are you addicted too about her? Her looks the only thing?
> Tell us what you like about her. More than superficial stuff, I'd like to know what it is about her that you are willing to accept pain and hurt.


I've been with this woman since my early 20's and my heart still races thinking about coming home to her. We sleep with me holding her every single night, and lay this way for a good hour in the AM, every single day and talk. She is kind, she's a great mother, she's thoughtful and will buy things for everyone else before herself. She's determined and smart, she had a terrible childhood but has made changes in her life and is going for her masters now, I respect that. She's been there for me at my lowest and I've been there for her, we've been through hell and back and still choose each other. All that and we have banging sex routinely.

I know she cheated, it was terrible, will I ever trust her completely? No, but I would never trust any woman completely, I'm too old and wizened by life to pretend anyone deserves 100% trust.

Can she change? Maybe, maybe not, I'm just trying to find out. To me it makes sense to find out since we have two homes and three kids, and a 15 year marriage.

As I've gotten older I've learned to set my ego aside and not just react, but to move cautiously and ensure each move makes sense for the long term. I don't trust her, but I trust my judgment. If it comes time to completely blow it up out of necessity I'll do it.


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## Betrayedone (Jan 1, 2014)

This whole thread is difficult to read. Very dysfunctional relationships like this just don't fix themselves overnight. KC has rose colored blinders on. I understand the desire to believe things will be different based on shared history but even that history was dysfunctional. I applaud his efforts toward working on himself and IMHO that will be his greatest asset moving forward. Forward does not include his looney wife. Failure to separate is only delaying the inevitable. Forward march my friend.......It will be painful for a while but eventually you will break into bright sunshine and you will have a life you never knew was possible.


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## jdawg2015 (Feb 12, 2015)

Betrayedone said:


> This whole thread is difficult to read. Very dysfunctional relationships like this just don't fix themselves overnight. *KC has rose colored blinders on*. I understand the desire to believe things will be different based on shared history but even that history was dysfunctional. I applaud his efforts toward working on himself and IMHO that will be his greatest asset moving forward. *Forward does not include his looney wife. Failure to separate is only delaying the inevitable. Forward march my friend.......*It will be painful for a while but eventually you will break into bright sunshine and you will have a life you never knew was possible.


:iagree:

knob, the woman you describe is not the woman you think she is. Seems you are attached to her and she knows it. That's why after snuggling with you all night she can easily do the same with another guy....

She's going to give you a lifetime of pain. I truly wish I could advise otherwise but repeat cheating? What more do you need to know about her character? She's given you a front row ticket to her show.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

KC,
I'm confident you'll figure this out. Lot of skeptics on TAM. And that's ok. The bad thing about skeptics is that it's hard for them to recognize what she's done. 

When trust is limited - the power dynamic becomes more visible and more important. 

It's not equal. You're the power earner AND she perceives you to be aging slower. 

A simpler means of saying this is, life consists of two separate but related dimensions: the mechanics, and the emotions

In terms of emotions you are both deeply enmeshed. Sort of equally. 

But in terms of the mechanics of life, no contest. 

The path to harmony there is to have a very steady, but light touch. 





knobcreek said:


> I've been with this woman since my early 20's and my heart still races thinking about coming home to her. We sleep with me holding her every single night, and lay this way for a good hour in the AM, every single day and talk. She is kind, she's a great mother, she's thoughtful and will buy things for everyone else before herself. She's determined and smart, she had a terrible childhood but has made changes in her life and is going for her masters now, I respect that. She's been there for me at my lowest and I've been there for her, we've been through hell and back and still choose each other. All that and we have banging sex routinely.
> 
> I know she cheated, it was terrible, will I ever trust her completely? No, but I would never trust any woman completely, I'm too old and wizened by life to pretend anyone deserves 100% trust.
> 
> ...


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

I thought the big self improvement you made would cause her to trigger. So, good you now know you are in the same league as her. 
Something she thought all along, not that would stop her from affaring down. 

Take the naysayers comments with a lot of salt. Work to grow as a couple, as parents, and finally as individuals, in that order. Read an article by a women who listed these points, as well as the order. The answer she gave on why growth as a couple was number one: the health of the parent's marriage is the most important relationship in a child's life.



Q


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Very interesting couple of days on this thread.

I am with MEM on this. 

Your discussions with her after the party where she admitted all her insecurities was really quite remarkable. People don't do this when actively cheating, it's much easier to lie. 

It means that she's left herself without protective walls and completely bare and vulnerable to you. You now know how to completely destroy her, if that is what you choose to do. Powerful stuff KC. 

I am...in a way...envious.


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

We had another Christmas party to go to this weekend, this one was for executives only, it was in the CEO's mansion and I think my wife for the first time realized that I'm actually legit in my career. I was the youngest VP in the room by 10-15 years easily, she got to see me in a different light and this definitely switched up the dynamic a bit more. I felt it and played up to it. I'm not a big shot at all, I credit my career to 98% right place, right time and like most things in my life I'm enormously insecure but put on a good act. I routinely tell her when this gig is up it's back to ham steaks...

After this party we went to a local bar to watch the Jets game and met up with some friends,we were dressed to the nines and I looked good to be honest, I normally don't think that, but tonight I did. One of my wife's recently divorced friends was there, and she came onto me as we crossed paths by the bathroom, and later texted me to ask me "is it true you really don't like blondes" (I've told my wife I much prefer brunette's and her friend is blonde, I guess she mentioned it). My wife had texted me from her phone after hers had died when they were at a concert over the summer, I guess she still had the number in there.

I know I have to tell my wife about this, but this one friend is one I actually like, I think she's nice and a has a good heart, but maybe a little lonely and drank way too much? Maybe I just let this go? I have no history of cheating or impropriety, so perhaps this lack of transparency is acceptable?

Since the party on Saturday my wife has been all over me, it's subsiding a bit because her lady days are coming, but she appears a bit different to me, like she was when we were younger, like a girl and vulnerable and not the unapproachable goddess I've made her out to be this past decade +.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

knobcreek said:


> Since the party on Saturday my wife has been all over me, it's subsiding a bit because her lady days are coming, but she appears a bit different to me, like she was when we were younger, like a girl and vulnerable and not the unapproachable goddess I've made her out to be this past decade +.


Then you are on the right track. Congratulations!


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Tell her about the text. You can't inspire transparency from her without being transparent.

Lead by example.

Wouldn't you want the same from her?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Yes 

That said - be ready to laugh and I mean a genuine laugh - at the idea you'd pursue the friend. 

If she asks whether you did anything to lead the friend on - and she may - you need to be entirely un phased by the question. 

And I'd answer it In a global manner with - the only person I ever lead on is right in front of me.

It is a very very rare thing - but if M2 seems truly anxious I do this Zen thing, sit next to her and ask: Do you think I WANT to be with anyone else?





farsidejunky said:


> Tell her about the text. You can't inspire transparency from her without being transparent.
> 
> Lead by example.
> 
> ...


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## Omego (Apr 17, 2013)

knobcreek said:


> I've been with this woman since my early 20's and my heart still races thinking about coming home to her.


This ^^^^^ means everything.... especially when reciprocal. Nice to read that things are working out so far.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I really hope your wife is beginning to respect and appreciate you, kc, and that you will see a much more humble attitude from her going forward. 

Far is right on that you need to be transparent with her about her friend. Transparency in marriage is critical. It builds trust.

And that means that if you were leading that woman, or any other, on, in any way (not saying you would do that, btw), that needs to be confessed, too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

farsidejunky said:


> You and @marduk have similar wives, brother.
> 
> His input would likely be helpful in this situation.
> 
> ...



Hey guys, sorry, been away.

How's things going now? Where do you want to start?


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

What do you mean she came on to you?

The text alone does not seem in any way inappropriate to me. A little bit of meaningless banter. Not something I would think needs to be told to the wife. It depends on how she came on to you when you crossed paths near the bathrooms, and the context of the entire situation.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

My God. Your wife is soooooo superficial. THAT is the number one thing she needs to work on. It's all about her the status. I get the whole MMSLP idea, but who in the hell would want to stay with a woman who basically ignores you when you weren't physically in your best shape, but is all to excited to up her game when she perceives that you are upping your 'sex rank'. You know damn well that your wife was up to all sorts of mischief going out all those times on her GNO's. Maybe she wasn't screwing strangers in the back seat of a car regularly, but it would not surprise me in the least if she was regularly felt up by strange men in order to get free drinks. The topper for me is how she "changed" back to a more vulnerable "need to please my man" mode when she saw you at an executives party in your glory. JFC...MMSLP babes are easily the most unappealing pieces of meat walking the planet. I'd rather be alone than to have a wife like yours as you describe her in this thread. Who the fvck wants such an emotional vampire in your life? What do you get out of the deal, nice titties to look at and a firm ass? Not a fair trade...


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> *My God. Your wife is soooooo superficial. * THAT is the number one thing she needs to work on. It's all about her the status. I get the whole MMSLP idea, but who in the hell would want to stay with a woman who basically ignores you when you weren't physically in your best shape, but is all to excited to up her game when she perceives that you are upping your 'sex rank'. You know damn well that your wife was up to all sorts of mischief going out all those times on her GNO's. *Maybe she wasn't screwing strangers in the back seat of a car regularly, but it would not surprise me in the least if she was regularly felt up by strange men in order to get free drinks*. The topper for me is how she "changed" back to a more vulnerable "need to please my man" mode when she saw you at an executives party in your glory. JFC...*MMSLP babes are easily the most unappealing pieces of meat walking the planet. I'd rather be alone than to have a wife like yours as you describe her in this thread. Who the fvck wants such an emotional vampire in your life*? What do you get out of the deal, nice titties to look at and a firm ass? Not a fair trade...


Don't hold back, tell me how you really feel lol...

This is a two dimensional posting and you're only getting my side, I'm sure she has her own opinions on things. For one when I was out of shape and she didn't want to have sex often she would likely say "you almost died from pneumonia and had to stop lifting for a year (I used to compete in power lifting) which made you depressed and tough to be around. Once you started running and lifting and getting back out there your mood got better and I felt more attracted to you".

Is it possible my wife cheated during a GNO? Yes, but not likely, she isn't a ONS type at all, she would've had to have some chase and a select partner she was cheating on me with, and having been through that I would know. So it's possible but unlikely IMO.

As for my career she's been with me since I was a LCpl in the Marines, and worked my way up in IT from systems administrator, to engineer, technology analyst, manager IS, Director, and now VP. I don't think she understood what my position was until she saw my office and saw me with other VP's at the most recent Holiday Party. I think this has her feeling overwhelmed. I talk myself down and have sh*t self-esteem, but I've succeeded in spite of that. The negative talk about myself probably has something to do with her viewing me negatively too.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

knobcreek said:


> I talk myself down and have sh*t self-esteem, but I've succeeded in spite of that. The negative talk about myself probably has something to do with her viewing me negatively too.


Yes, it does. Others can sense how you view yourself. The self-evaluation that is most attractive to women is "irrationally high self-confidence".

You don't have to go that far. But you need to improve your opinion of yourself so it corresponds to something like (let's go crazy here) objective reality!


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

knobcreek said:


> We'll see how this progresses.


I think I know how it will progress. 

Just spy on her on her next cougar night. PLEASE. For you. Then follow-up here. For me.

10 years a party girl and just now she's seen the light. No freakin' way.


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## ricky15100 (Oct 23, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> KC,
> The subtext here is incredibly valuable. Reason this seems workable is remarkably simple.
> 
> There wasn't a hint, not even a trace of blameshifting. She totally owned her behavior. Is ashamed of it. Very clearly loves you a lot.
> ...


While I agree with what you say, women like this tend to have moments of clarity, and then normal service is resumed, I hope this isn't the case

Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk


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## sparrow555 (Jun 27, 2015)

knobcreek said:


> So I took her to my Christmas party and after a couple glasses of wine she starts telling me to "point her out", I'm like "point who out" "what the heck are you talking about, we're at my company party?". Just by looking at her face I can tell I have to get us out of there or they'll be a scene, there are times when she is impossible to reason with. So I had to leave my Christmas party unannounced, which I hate doing to avoid an embarrassing scene.
> 
> We get home and she comes out with all these insecurities she has, how she's sure I'm cheating on her (remember the woman who told me she saw her at the bar that I work with?), apparently she's been convinced I've been seeing this women and confiding in her about our marriage. She has zero evidence of this, but she thinks it for some reason. She's worried I'm going to leave her, she feels old, I'm aging better (I'm not, she literally looks in her mid 20's at 34), etc... Worried that the weight loss and where I've gone in life is evidence I'm moving on from her and she's upset about it. We talked for three hours, didn't argue and actually talked, it was weird. The kids knew something was up and they were uncomfortably coming into our room to interrupt our talking.
> 
> ...



You are going to totally regret this post. YOu will look back at this post and will wonder how you were so gullible. 

Lot of half truths in her open talk. She did not straight out lie. She laced lies with a little bit of truth to get you off her scent. She saw you detaching and pulled you back in. She also sounds like she has a serious alcohol problem.


It is fine if you accept her faults with open eyes and work within those limitations. But that is not the case here. I strongly disagree with people comparing her to @marduk ;s wife. They are no way similar. Your wife is a lot more sinister.


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

Perhaps you all are right, she's a cheat, liar, no good, sinister, deceptive, not a decent bone in her body, and will bleed me dry.

What am I supposed to do about it? I have three children, two homes, a ton of emotional baggage from all of this. Even if I do divorce her will I upgrade? The vast majority of marriages ending are ending because of women having affairs or just feeling they can do better (just like my wife), so out of the dating pool I have available to me at my age I'll likely just trade her in for another one just as bad who will do the same crap, except this time my marketability is sh*t because I'm paying a fortune in child and spousal support, so she'll be less attractive and have a ton of emotional baggage from her failed marriage, likely some other dudes kids that I now have to support plus my own, or I just stay a bachelor and die alone with my kids resenting me for leaving, sounds awesome...

I really don't have an option but to stick it out at this point. If she cheats she cheats, likely any woman in the future will anyway, just read this site it's 99:1 women:men cheating, I don't think anything is going to stop this trend. It's been definitely screwing with my mind, there's no good way to turn, all options are absolute garbage. I don't want this for my boys, I pray they never marry, never have kids, who needs this sh*t?


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

knobcreek said:


> Perhaps you all are right, she's a cheat, liar, no good, sinister, deceptive, not a decent bone in her body, and will bleed me dry.
> 
> What am I supposed to do about it? I have three children, two homes, a ton of emotional baggage from all of this. Even if I do divorce her will I upgrade? The vast majority of marriages ending are ending because of women having affairs or just feeling they can do better (just like my wife), so out of the dating pool I have available to me at my age I'll likely just trade her in for another one just as bad who will do the same crap, except this time my marketability is sh*t because I'm paying a fortune in child and spousal support, so she'll be less attractive and have a ton of emotional baggage from her failed marriage, likely some other dudes kids that I now have to support plus my own, or I just stay a bachelor and die alone with my kids resenting me for leaving, sounds awesome...
> 
> I really don't have an option but to stick it out at this point. If she cheats she cheats, likely any woman in the future will anyway, just read this site it's *99:1 women:men cheating*, I don't think anything is going to stop this trend. It's been definitely screwing with my mind, there's no good way to turn, all options are absolute garbage. I don't want this for my boys, I pray they never marry, never have kids, who needs this sh*t?


Even on a sight as skewed as TAM...NFW is that correct. Definitely not the case IRL.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

knobcreek said:


> Perhaps you all are right, she's a cheat, liar, no good, sinister, deceptive, not a decent bone in her body, and will bleed me dry.
> 
> What am I supposed to do about it? I have three children, two homes, a ton of emotional baggage from all of this. Even if I do divorce her will I upgrade? The vast majority of marriages ending are ending because of women having affairs or just feeling they can do better (just like my wife), so out of the dating pool I have available to me at my age I'll likely just trade her in for another one just as bad who will do the same crap, except this time my marketability is sh*t because I'm paying a fortune in child and spousal support, so she'll be less attractive and have a ton of emotional baggage from her failed marriage, likely some other dudes kids that I now have to support plus my own, or I just stay a bachelor and die alone with my kids resenting me for leaving, sounds awesome...
> 
> I really don't have an option but to stick it out at this point. If she cheats she cheats, likely any woman in the future will anyway, just read this site it's 99:1 women:men cheating, I don't think anything is going to stop this trend. It's been definitely screwing with my mind, there's no good way to turn, all options are absolute garbage. I don't want this for my boys, I pray they never marry, never have kids, who needs this sh*t?


BS...

Here's what you do. Here's what I did.

It all starts here: *Let her go.* If not in life, in your heart. Be OK with losing her. 

Do not whine, beg, worry, or give a **** when she walks out the door. Do not say anything except laugh at her when she flirts with other guys. Not laughing WITH her -- laugh AT her. As in "Wife, if I were that guy watching you come on to me right in front of her husband, I'd be laughing my ass all the way home at you, thinking about how low class that is." And then walk away.

Go out yourself. Get some buddies. Be the best you you can be. Spend your time not with her. Have a smile on your face. Get some hobbies. 

Whatever you do, don't fixate on her, because if your wife is like mine, that allows her to go and do anything without repercussions. Thinking she walks on water and you have no options means that you're lucky to have whatever crumbs she throws your way. 

If need be, mirror her behaviour. If she flirts with other men, flirt with other women. If she has poor boundaries, you have poor boundaries. If she has a problem with that, tell her to change first. If she doesn't... Then she was actually gone long ago.

Sometimes, like in the movie war games, the best way to win an unwinnable game is not to play. So don't play. 

Right now she gets to make the rules of the game and change them at will so you can never win. 

It starts by letting her go.

That way you can define yourself, instead of letting her define you, or at least define what success is for you.


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## sparrow555 (Jun 27, 2015)

knobcreek said:


> Perhaps you all are right, she's a cheat, liar, no good, sinister, deceptive, not a decent bone in her body, and will bleed me dry.
> 
> What am I supposed to do about it? I have three children, two homes, a ton of emotional baggage from all of this. Even if I do divorce her will I upgrade? The vast majority of marriages ending are ending because of women having affairs or just feeling they can do better (just like my wife), so out of the dating pool I have available to me at my age I'll likely just trade her in for another one just as bad who will do the same crap, except this time my marketability is sh*t because I'm paying a fortune in child and spousal support, so she'll be less attractive and have a ton of emotional baggage from her failed marriage, likely some other dudes kids that I now have to support plus my own, or I just stay a bachelor and die alone with my kids resenting me for leaving, sounds awesome...
> 
> I really don't have an option but to stick it out at this point. If she cheats she cheats, likely any woman in the future will anyway, just read this site it's 99:1 women:men cheating, I don't think anything is going to stop this trend. It's been definitely screwing with my mind, there's no good way to turn, all options are absolute garbage. I don't want this for my boys, I pray they never marry, never have kids, who needs this sh*t?


Notice that I also said this



> It is fine if you accept her faults with open eyes and work within those limitations.


I think the recent conversation gave you way too much hope for one single conversation IMO. So I am just balancing it out and keeping it in perspective. 

If she gets better as a wife and person for the long term, then it is the best case scenario for you, your kids and the family as a whole. Your need or desire to have her become this person should also be grounded in reality. I hope I made sense. Hope for a better future and a better wife but be prepared to deal with it if it does not end up as you wish it did.

Follow up with the discussion that night with other activities instead of letting of become a one off event. 



Also, your sunk cost analogy is wrong but I will not get into that. Forums attract more men because most women have support structures in real life when their spouses have affairs. Men, not so much. Also, TAM is more male centric. Go to a forum like SI and it is 50/50(approx)


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## sparrow555 (Jun 27, 2015)

knobcreek said:


> We had another Christmas party to go to this weekend, this one was for executives only, it was in the CEO's mansion and I think my wife for the first time realized that I'm actually legit in my career. I was the youngest VP in the room by 10-15 years easily, she got to see me in a different light and this definitely switched up the dynamic a bit more. I felt it and played up to it. I'm not a big shot at all, I credit my career to 98% right place, right time and like most things in my life I'm enormously insecure but put on a good act. I routinely tell her when this gig is up it's back to ham steaks...
> 
> After this party we went to a local bar to watch the Jets game and met up with some friends,we were dressed to the nines and I looked good to be honest, I normally don't think that, but tonight I did. One of my wife's recently divorced friends was there, and she came onto me as we crossed paths by the bathroom, and later texted me to ask me "is it true you really don't like blondes" (I've told my wife I much prefer brunette's and her friend is blonde, I guess she mentioned it). My wife had texted me from her phone after hers had died when they were at a concert over the summer, I guess she still had the number in there.
> 
> ...



Your wife put her in her place once she saw her as a threat. I mean, it is an odd thing to share what your preferences in women are.


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## SnowToArmPits (Jan 2, 2016)

knobcreek said:


> Perhaps you all are right, she's a cheat, liar, no good, sinister, deceptive, not a decent bone in her body, and will bleed me dry.
> 
> What am I supposed to do about it? I have three children, two homes, a ton of emotional baggage from all of this. Even if I do divorce her will I upgrade? The vast majority of marriages ending are ending because of women having affairs or just feeling they can do better (just like my wife), so out of the dating pool I have available to me at my age I'll likely just trade her in for another one just as bad who will do the same crap, except this time my marketability is sh*t because I'm paying a fortune in child and spousal support, so she'll be less attractive and have a ton of emotional baggage from her failed marriage, likely some other dudes kids that I now have to support plus my own, or I just stay a bachelor and die alone with my kids resenting me for leaving, sounds awesome...
> 
> I really don't have an option but to stick it out at this point. If she cheats she cheats, likely any woman in the future will anyway, just read this site it's 99:1 women:men cheating, I don't think anything is going to stop this trend. It's been definitely screwing with my mind, there's no good way to turn, all options are absolute garbage. I don't want this for my boys, I pray they never marry, never have kids, who needs this sh*t?


knobcreek - strength to you, I'm very sorry for the trouble in your marriage. 

You're a smart guy, and you know what you wrote here isn't true. Things have you down, it's hard, but come on life is NOT as negative as wrote above. You can find, or at least look for an honest, caring woman, and you don't pray all your boys never marry. And, your kids can survive a divorce if it comes to that.

I'm recently retired, married a long time to a flirty wife. It really grinds you down, I get that. Resentment, anger, off the charts at times, been there. You've got to change the state of your marriage. You're alone in your marriage now, your wife spends her time repairing her friends relationships and none on yours? Very bad. You're describing to us your marriage as having a 5-alarm fire, she needs to get by your side repairing it with you.

If I were to do things over again in my marriage, go back in time, I'd try what marduk suggests: start flirting yourself if she flirts, get some hobbies and spend nights out alone if need be, get her curious and worried about what you're doing. Read his post. You're a catch buddy - in shape, a VP, handy, attentive, good father. WTF, time she started flirting exclusively with you.

Excuse me if you've answered this, it's been mentioned to you... what is your wife, a young mother, going out bar hopping with girlfriends? Dude, you're the VP shut that down stat. That is not healthy behaviour for a young mother and your wife. She's not single, but is acting like it, what are you doing here? CHANGE THIS. Bar hop with her, or I don't know, maybe she should be into you rather than stepping out on the town. Replace her bar hopping nights with the two of you doing something on the town or with another couple. If you're going to let this continue, I'd hire a PI to check her out while bar hopping, this has been suggested by others to you. 

Last, how worried were you at your executive xmas party that she'd start flirting with the husbands? I've been there in my marriage, not a fun party to attend man. Maybe she's still in awe of the high-powered people in that group, what happens when she gets comfortable in that crowd, or flirts because she's nervous. You want her flirting with the married VPs, oh boy. Those horn dogs might lap it up, their wives though....and your respect among your peers... 

If you're stuck, if you weren't so dismissive of Athol Kay I'd suggest you get some counselling over the phone with him. If not him, you're worth it, spend some $$$ to get the best counsellor to coach yourself, and to get an intervention in your marriage.

I wish you all the best in 2016 kc. Make 2016 the year of enough already.


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