# Help dealing with stbxw (BPD traits?)



## Bottle (Sep 12, 2012)

Hi,

I have my original story in the going thru divorce section but am posting here as have entered a different phase and want some opinions on what I'm dealing with now.

Summary of my relationship history with stbxw:

-we were together 5 yrs, married 3.5
-daughter aged 4.5 yrs now
-stbxw has 2 other daughters, all 3 have different fathers
-separated for 3 mths in jan 2011, then reconciled (both at her request)
-split up in June 2012, no reconciliation despite my best efforts trying to
-find out she is seeing someone else in Nov 2012
-strong suggestions this was developing from feb/mar time 2012 (which she denies of course)
-D now in progress, at my instigation upon finding out about OM

Her background:
-father died when she was 2 yrs old
-raised solely by her mum who emotionally abused her really, without realising it
-she had an eating disorder when a teenager
-was also raped, but details are sketchy, she mentioned it once and never again- I didn't want to pry
-she has ended every one of her relationships first, I think to not feel the pain of rejection (1st BF dumped her when she was teenager and she took it really badly)
-she is articulate, intelligent and beautiful
-she has low self esteem and is insecure, she can't be without a man

Me- I'm codependent and a fixer. I also have an abandonment issue from my past. I am in IC to deal with everything which is helping, although the last 6 mths have been hell.

I have been reading other posts and think she has some of the BPD traits mentioned. Am just after some pointers ally on how to handle her on an ongoing basis as I find it almost impossible to deal,with her effectively.

She was amazing early on in our r'ship. I was convinced she was my soul mate. Loving, attentive, beautiful. The sex was incredible. I asked her to marry me after 5 mths I was so convinced she was 'the one'. 

Looking back there were some early signs I should've noticed of what was to come. She chewed me out over something I said one night that was pretty innocuous. She got really angry, but I managed to calm it down.

She was also very controlling and frightened of me leaving her in the early days. She was scared I would go back to my ex GF (there was no way and I tried to convince her at the time), and was asking what time I would be back when going out for a drink with my pals etc. She was always calling/texting me. Whilst flattering at first it became over whelming after a while. She didn't take it well when we had a talk about it but managed to back off slightly.

She's been very controlling and has OCD (knows it too). house was always immaculate and I couldn't tell when she'd cleaned as it always looked clean. She used to get upset when I didn't notice and sulk a bit.

She had massive issues with her OCD and had to organise, plan and do everything herself. Then she would get upset when I 'didn't help her'. I tried to explain it was because she'd already done it, usually whilst I was at work, but she couldn't see the link. Or if she could not actually change her behaviour. She just has to be in control the whole time.

She got angry really quickly and her first reaction to anyone criticising her is to front them up/fight back. She can't take any sort of criticism and has accused me of a 'character assassination' before when I tried to give her some feedback once. It def wasn't that bad, just normal stuff but it was about her, not about how she stacked the dishwasher so,she flipped out and cried for ages. 

She used to moan at me for not opening up to her enough, but when I did (above example), it wouldn't end well so I just gave up in the end. 

I felt like I was walking on eggshells but she used to say that SHE felt like this around me. I am a pretty laid back guy so couldn't really understand why. I don't have a temper even though I would stand my ground when we argued.

She hit me a couple of times when we had drunken arguments. Once was in public which almost got me arrested! She Actually chipped one of my teeth once she hit me that hard. I had to virtually force her to apologise the next day. I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times she has apologised to me in 6 yrs. 

I always felt she was angry and had the tendency to blow up easier than most people. She can get really ferocious at times. Shouts at the children when they misbehave although have never seen her hit them. Her eldest is scared of her but the younger two seem to take after her more and it's water off a ducks back to them. She has shouted and screamed at me numerous times, including a couple of days before our wedding as I was telling the children to be quiet! Thought she really over reacted then and I remember thinking it was a bad sign for future. I loved her so much though I carried on regardless.

She was also a cold person at times and I felt her really hard to get close to. She used to accuse me of this and I know I find it hard to be intimate, because of my abandonment thing, but it was the very thing she struggled with too. She even admitted to me once the we're parts of her even she can't access. Guess its the hurt from her upbringing and she can't face,going there.

I found this projection happening a lot... Accused me of being defensive, black and white thinker, not willing to open up emotionally, which are all faults of hers. She just couldn't see it though.

Everything was someone else's fault, not hers. She is very good at turning the blame onto me mainly, or others but is just completely unable to see any faults in herself. 

She fell out with her two best friends who were bridesmaids at our wedding. She seems to have a new best friend every 2 years and has no friendships lasting more than a few years. All her friends seem to come and go and theres always some sort of drama associated with them. Regular fall puts etc. Again she doesn't see it and accused me of not having a good friend to talk to when we split up (I have a few who have been great).

She also seems to get bored with things quickly. For example she's had 5 cars in the last 5 yrs, was constantly wanting to move house, change lifestyle etc. had hundreds of shoes, handbags and new clothes that she either wore once or not at all.

She completely invented her life when she left in about 6 weeks. New house, car, appliances, friends, gym, clothes, lifestyle! It was unbelievable how quickly she detached from me and her 'old' life.

She also hid £2k worth of debt from me that I only found out about when we split up. It was a letter from debt collectors about to take her to court that she'd hidden very well. When I challenged her on it she just brushed it off as her problem (she didn't have a job so had no means of paying it off) not mine. 

I am starting to think she hid other stuff, including the OM, but she wouldn't really lie to me and used to make a big thing of not lying as I did this to her a couple of times early on and she found out.

One was meeting a female,friend for coffee and she always used to throw this in my face when we argued, always! She seemed convinced I was having an affair (I wasn't as was committed to her 100%). She even got one of my work friends who she knew round for tea one day whe I was at work to question him over whether I was having an affair with someone at the office. Swore him to secrecy and he only told me after she left and was seeing someone else. 

She has massive trust issues and I think this comes from her upbringing. Think she is so scared of being left alone, she ends her relationships first. It also means its on her terms and she's in total control. Scary really.

Despite all my efforts to reconcile she has got really angry with me a few times, over not much that I can see. She threatened to have a restraining order put on me after an email I sent her (I haven't been to her new place once since she moved there), so it was a ridiculous accusation.

She can't seem to see the break up from my perspective as she would understand I am just going through the stages of grief etc, although she says she does (based on the experience of her first BF dumping her when she was 15). Not the same in my book, anyway. She thinks she can empathise but I just don't see it in her behaviour.

Thes more stuff I could say, but I'm really after some suggestions on how to handle her best as I think I'm going crazy at times. She is such a complex character to deal with. 

Im more concerned that I can see her traits in our daughter already. She is stubborn, independent and gets angry quickly. I really want to ensure she gets a good upbringing as the environment with her mum isn't great. 

She seems to have handled the split well as she's only 4.5 yrs old, but it's obviously affecting her. It doesn't help that stbxw lies to answer her questions about "why they moved house away from daddy"... The answer was "because we need more space". The middle daughter told me and I couldn't believe it. Again, avoidance of the issue and hiding real feelings.

I noticed Uptown has some really good advice on BPD traits and would be really interested to hear your opinion please. And others too....

Am happy to give more info to any specific questions. Thanks.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Bottle, WOW, what a wonderfully detailed description you've used to begin this new thread. Yes, you are describing most of the classic BPD traits. It is common for BPDers to eventually permanently split their spouses black and walk out on them. Typically, however, this seems to occur after about 12 to 15 years because the BPDer grows increasingly resentful that the spouse is unable to make her happy. Of course, some BPDers do it more frequently and end up hopping from partner to partner.

One question I have is whether you saw the push-away and pull-back cycle happening quite often, say every several weeks? I ask because it is common for BPDers to push you away (creating arguments over nothing) to get relief from the engulfment -- and then to follow up by becoming very caring and loving to pull you back in (after their fear of abandonment starts setting in).

I also want to ask what the IC counselor told you about your W when you saw him several months ago? And what did your two (part-time) counselor friends say? Were any of them psychologists?

Because you have already read some of my posts, I assume you've read my overview of BPD traits in Maybe's thread at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522. And you likely have read my posts providing online links to BPD resources (e.g., BPDfamily.com's forum on "Raising a Child when One Parent Has BPD"). If not, let me know and I will be glad to provide them.


----------



## Bottle (Sep 12, 2012)

Uptown said:


> Bottle, WOW, what a wonderfully detailed description you've used to begin this new thread. Yes, you are describing most of the classic BPD traits. It is common for BPDers to eventually permanently split their spouses black and walk out on them. Typically, however, this seems to occur after about 12 to 15 years because the BPDer grows increasingly resentful that the spouse is unable to make her happy. Of course, some BPDers do it more frequently and end up hopping from partner to partner.
> 
> One question I have is whether you saw the push-away and pull-back cycle happening quite often, say every several weeks? I ask because it is common for BPDers to push you away (creating arguments over nothing) to get relief from the engulfment -- and then to follow up by becoming very caring and loving to pull you back in (after their fear of abandonment starts setting in).
> 
> ...


Thanks Uptown.

She didn't seem to follow the normal push-pull cycle every few weeks, no. Her style was to just withdraw emotionally or get angry about something, then she would normally 'come around' after a short while. Of course it was always my or someone else's fault she was angry and she was 'entitled to be'.

She threatened to leave me quite a few times though and in one argument said she would've left by now if I wasn't our daughters father. Thought that was a really low blow. Again, no real apology for it the next day.

Due to my abandonment issue I used to cling onto her after we had these sorts of arguments as I was terrified of her leaving. Perhaps this gave her the pull trip and ego boost she needed.

She was good at disguising her real feelings. I've only noticed this in hindsight aft she left as she was that good at it.

I'm still seeing my IC and she hasn't said anything in relation to BPD for my stbxw. Think she is reluctant to say anything specific when it's only me at counselling, not stbxw too although we talk about her a fair bit.

The MC we went to last year was all about me changing my behaviours in hindsight. She was very guarded all throughout and that's when the real shift in relationship power went to her. It was as if she went to get me to change for how she wanted me to.

She even said I didn't congratulate her on the changes shed made after it a few months later. I honestly didn't see any change, apart from her letting the girls bedrooms be a bit messier without cleaning constantly.

My two friends who are counsellors have helped me understand things like dissociation, attachment and projection. Again they haven't mentioned BPD either. One said I could've been Brad Pitt and shed have still left me - that it was her pattern of behaviour and she wouldn't ever change as the 'work' is too hard for her. She finds it easier to just start over again with someone else.

It's mainly through what I've learned myself that I can see the traits. I just had to know what went wrong as on the face of it It just didn't add up. I spent £20k on her, our home and holidays etc. in the last 12 mths of our marriage and she just said "that's what you do when you're married".

I felt I could never win and she was keeping a list of my indiscretions that she would always throw back at me. Eventually it became long enough that she convinced herself we shouldnt be together (despite great lifestyle, kids settled and doing well in school, lots of good times too as well as some challenges). It's like she wants drama and excitement all the time and doesn't do normality.

She always used to like getting away for the night or on holiday - even said she had always wanted to just run away and not come back!

I am checking the boards out you mention and have read the list of hell- most of it describes her very closely!

Thank you... I am understanding better all the time.


----------



## Bottle (Sep 12, 2012)

Oh and also said if she isn't happy she will just leave someone. Shed initially,wanted to do this when we separated in jan 2011, but had fought the feelings for the first time ever. I thought shed changed then, but to no avail.

She said all she wanted from life was to "be happy".

When I asked her what would make her happy she said "to be with someone who gets ME, understands ME and supports ME."

She also said "I might never find it though".

Very self centred/selfish view IMO.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Bottle, you are describing a woman who frequently pushes you away but never goes to the trouble of pulling you back. One possible reason for this, as you say, is that you were always so quick to rush to her side that she didn't have to bother pulling. Another is that she is so fearful of abandonment that, like your counselor friend said, she is always quick to cut and run -- rather than dealing with the mess or doing any "work" on herself.

A third possibility is that her NPD traits are far stronger than the BPD traits. About 70% of folks having a full-blown PD also have one or two other PDs too. Whereas BPDers are unstable and capable of loving you, narcissists are the opposite. They are stable but incapable of loving you. 

Making this distinction, with regard to your W, is the reason I was asking you about the seemingly missing pull-back phase of the cycle. I therefore will ask more directly: are you persuaded that -- during her good periods -- she genuinely does love you and the three daughters? And are you persuaded that she is emotionally unstable?

If not, I suggest you read Kathy Batesel's description of narcissism at Narcissism: Recognizing, Coping With, and Treating It. My other suggestion is that you flat-out ask your IC whether your W's behaviors, as you've described them to your IC, have "strong aspects of" BPD or NPD. 

My experience with therapists is that getting them to characterize your spouse's behavior can be like pulling teeth -- but many of the therapists will talk about her "showing strong aspects of" a PD if you are insistent on knowing what it is you are going home to.


----------



## anony2 (Apr 28, 2012)

Read No More Mr. Nice Guy. You have the classic symptoms of a 'nice guy'. 

Have your wife read it too.


----------



## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Uptown is an amazing resource on BPD. I sometimes have a clear opinion on whether someone is exhibiting traits of BPD, but sometimes a post is less clear for me. This one is an example of that.

With the exception of hiding money, this post fits my past behavior almost identically with many/most of my relationships, but not all. I was this way with my first husband and the LTR I had after him - basically from the ages of 17-28. From 28 until now, in my 40s, the BPD type traits have mostly been absent, but not always.

With my second husband, who I married at 29 y.o., there were shadows of it. I became overly reactionary a few times and I started hitting him during an argument... a total of four or five blowouts in our 11 years together, which is why I say it's a "shadow." After we divorced, he told me I had shocked him once because I'd told him he assassinated my character when we'd fought. He, like my first husband, became frustrated with me because I was always striving for some new goal. "Why can't you just be happy with what we have" is something I've heard many times. Yet we were good friends and despite a sexless marriage, got along well and rarely argued until he had an affair while he was deployed.

After our divorce, the same behaviors came back in a HUGE way, when I got involved with a full-blown narcissist. From his viewpoint, I was frequently over-reactive and pushed him away. From my viewpoint, he was an emotionally abusive jerk who couldn't validate a single perception of mine if his life depended on it. 

Then I married my current husband and have the kind of relationship people openly admire and want because it is filled with mutual respect, affection, and fun.

From my early teen years on, I tried to find a way to make sense of the world. I'd come from a very sexually abusive childhood, which is very common among people with BPD, and like your wife, I said that I wanted to be happy but doubted I'd ever find it. My mother is mentally ill and never loved me in the first place (yes, she has said so.) 

I wanted to find happiness, and of course, my idea of that was to have a good marriage, which I'd really only seen from afar, and I had the idea that "relationships take hard work." I delved into every psychology book and magazine I could find, and went so far as to become a counselor in my attempts to find a path to contentment.

To make a long story short, I was the one who left relationships. I was not left except one time, and usually I heard that I "didn't give it a fair chance." 

I've reflected a lot on the differences between the peaceful relationships I've had and the ones where I was perceived as crazy and over-reactive.

The biggest factor I've noticed is whether or not I feel like my partner has taken the time to listen and understand me. They don't have to agree with me, but if they're so busy making their points that they can't hear mine, it flips a switch inside my brain. I'm practiced at listening and understanding others, and at the first sign of disagreement, I will back off and listen, but I do expect to have a chance to speak my piece. If my partner responds to that by telling me I'm wrong and reiterating their own points, I do not feel like they have treated me as important. 

On the other hand, if they say, "I get why you're saying this part, but I can't agree with that part," it prevents me from going into overload and raising my voice to be heard, or flailing my arms to emphasize my viewpoint that I think is being ignored.

The other element in this for me was that I have found that talking is over-rated for exactly these reasons. Guys and girls are different here, and when I stopped thinking like a girl on it, and started to use my behaviors to argue my side instead of trying to debate, there was also less conflict, but this doesn't help the OP. He can't make his wife learn how to do that.

I have BPD traits, but I do not think I have BPD because those traits have come under my control, which I don't think is likely or even possible for a BPD person. Then again, maybe it is possible and I have BPD, but if that's the case, part of the solution is finding a person who is compatible and not participating with people who aren't.


----------



## Bottle (Sep 12, 2012)

Uptown said:


> Bottle, you are describing a woman who frequently pushes you away but never goes to the trouble of pulling you back. One possible reason for this, as you say, is that you were always so quick to rush to her side that she didn't have to bother pulling. Another is that she is so fearful of abandonment that, like your counselor friend said, she is always quick to cut and run -- rather than dealing with the mess or doing any "work" on herself.
> 
> A third possibility is that her NPD traits are far stronger than the BPD traits. About 70% of folks having a full-blown PD also have one or two other PDs too. Whereas BPDers are unstable and capable of loving you, narcissists are the opposite. They are stable but incapable of loving you.
> 
> ...


Thanks uptown. I am convinced that when we were together she did genuinely love me and the girls during her good periods. 

She is emotionally unstable, especially when under pressure or stressed. It always used to come out as anger. She would calm down fairly quickly most of the time, but it was always there under the surface.

Spoke to her this morning about an incident with one of our children and she blew up at me in 10 secs flat. Calling me names, crying, v angry etc. she's stressed right now.


----------



## Too Little Too Late? (Sep 2, 2012)

KathyBatesel said:


> Uptown is an amazing resource on BPD. I sometimes have a clear opinion on whether someone is exhibiting traits of BPD, but sometimes a post is less clear for me. This one is an example of that.
> 
> With the exception of hiding money, this post fits my past behavior almost identically with many/most of my relationships, but not all. I was this way with my first husband and the LTR I had after him - basically from the ages of 17-28. From 28 until now, in my 40s, the BPD type traits have mostly been absent, but not always.
> 
> ...


Kathy, what do you do with someone who accepts zero blame for anything that has happened in a relationship? The most I got was "i loved you too much and i stayed too long".


----------



## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Too Little Too Late? said:


> Kathy, what do you do with someone who accepts zero blame for anything that has happened in a relationship? The most I got was "i loved you too much and i stayed too long".


I leave.


----------



## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

You need to set very clear boundaries. You need to distance yourself emotionally. You need to see her as a crazy person and not take her seriously because that's what she is. She has a delusional sense of reality. 
Choose your battles and speak briefly and stick to the facts. When she becomes angry hang up or stop texting. 
There is a book called "splitting" that is a guide to divorcing a BPD. It helped me immensely. 
I'm sorry you are going through this. Your best bet is to keep all contact to a minimum and keep it brief. 
I also bought minutes for a company that records phone calls and then you can listen to them online a d download them.
I would also record any in person contacts, and save all texts and emails. 
These people will try to destroy you when they know you are gone for good.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

Also don't expect apologies or any rational closure. Just move on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Too Little Too Late? (Sep 2, 2012)

KathyBatesel said:


> I leave.


Bottle,

Reading your story was like someone entered my brain and ghost wrote your post. It is spooky how close our stories are. I asked the question of you Kathy because my stbxw accepts no blame whatsoever for the demise of our marriage. even told me once recently that she used to be the most loving caring woman..that she was dead now, and that I killed her. Im still having a hard time with it all. I have been NC for 3 months with exception to the kids which is almost NC. She now has a posOm that she professes her love to and has integrated him into what was my family, practically living with them now after just 5 months of knowing him. I know she is gone but it doesn't take away the pain. Good luck on your journey Bottle. Check in any time, this is a hard road.


----------



## Bottle (Sep 12, 2012)

Too Little Too Late? said:


> Bottle,
> 
> Reading your story was like someone entered my brain and ghost wrote your post. It is spooky how close our stories are. I asked the question of you Kathy because my stbxw accepts no blame whatsoever for the demise of our marriage. even told me once recently that she used to be the most loving caring woman..that she was dead now, and that I killed her. Im still having a hard time with it all. I have been NC for 3 months with exception to the kids which is almost NC. She now has a posOm that she professes her love to and has integrated him into what was my family, practically living with them now after just 5 months of knowing him. I know she is gone but it doesn't take away the pain. Good luck on your journey Bottle. Check in any time, this is a hard road.


Thanks TLTL, I am uncovering more of her lies all the time. She had posOM lined up before she left, but of course EVERYTHING is my fault.

Will check in on your thread - hope you're doing ok. We WILL come out of this better and happier. They WON'T. Trust that.


----------



## Too Little Too Late? (Sep 2, 2012)

Bottle said:


> Thanks TLTL, I am uncovering more of her lies all the time. She had posOM lined up before she left, but of course EVERYTHING is my fault.
> 
> Will check in on your thread - hope you're doing ok. We WILL come out of this better and happier. They WON'T. Trust that.


Hey Bottle..how you holding up?


----------

