# Breaking down when things could work out



## strange_bound (Feb 27, 2012)

Hi, our marriage is complicated to say the least (see http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/40791-my-wife-asexual.html). My wife is currently going through counseling and that seems to be having some sort of an effect on her. I think for the first time she may be prepared to look into our situation from a different light.

The thing is, now that there seems to be a chance that our marriage could work out, I'm consumed by a silent rage. Over the six years of my marriage I have dealt with a lot of her nonsense, such as:

- I doubted my sexuality and thought I wasn't attractive enough
- I questioned my moral authority over pretty much anything including the TV remote control
- I had vicious fights with my parents and relatives over my wife when she was actually impatient, disrespectful and emotionally irresponsible
- I got into financial problems that I still haven't managed to crawl out of (and probably won't anytime soon)
- I was just constantly stressed out

She only started changing at all when I threatened to leave her (last year). And now she's seeing a counselor.

I keep asking myself: why is she changing now? Isn't it incredibly selfish of her that I had to push her towards this direction before she started to come to her senses? Even with all this changing and counseling, I keep feeling that she doesn't really understand the range of my past sufferings. I feel used and exploited by her ego.

I know all these are destructive thoughts, but I'm really breaking down here. I am becoming more and more aloof from my wife and that can't be helping our marriage. I wish I could see a counselor but I don't have the means right now. Any advice would be helpful.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Sorry to hear of your situation.

I know this sounds cliche, but you cannot change the past.
What can you do? You can look at everything that has happened to you as experience. you have been through heck and back. And you are stronger for it, have learned a few things.

There is no way to say that you would be financially better now if she had behaved differently. It's a mind game that will never end in your favor. 

She finally started speaking your lanuguage, she finally found a reason to engage, she grew up and matured enough to not be so selfish, any number of reasons.

The point is... she did. And yeah she might not understand, maybe never, maybe someday. But to move forward in your mind, focusing on what you have today is more important that what was.


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## strange_bound (Feb 27, 2012)

@deejov So all that matters are the results, and not the motivation behind the results? 

Does she really love me at all?


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## shy_guy (Jan 25, 2012)

strange_bound said:


> @deejov So all that matters are the results, and not the motivation behind the results?
> 
> Does she really love me at all?


I don't think any of us can answer that last question, but it seems that she was committed enough to you to at least take steps to try to change when she thought it was a real option that she might lose you. Maybe that's not everybody's romantic idea, but I think it means something. What do you think it means?

What do you think your options are?


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## strange_bound (Feb 27, 2012)

@shy_guy I think she loves herself more than she loves me - I offer her an umbrella of support somehow, which she can't afford to lose. Which is why she's so desperate to save our marriage now. If she really had any intention of looking into me, she would have done that without the pressure of a potential divorce.

My options are pretty binary: stay or don't stay. Either way I lose.


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## shy_guy (Jan 25, 2012)

strange_bound said:


> @shy_guy I think she loves herself more than she loves me - I offer her an umbrella of support somehow, which she can't afford to lose. Which is why she's so desperate to save our marriage now. If she really had any intention of looking into me, she would have done that without the pressure of a potential divorce.


That would be tempting to say, but is that really it? I would want to be certain that was really what was happening before I decided to take action on it. If you are really certain this is the case, then why in the title did you hint that things could work out?

Is there another possibility? Is it possible that she heard the wakeup call and has really repented? Of course, I don't know her, so I have no way of knowing if this is what happened, but do you think people ever do this?



strange_bound said:


> My options are pretty binary: stay or don't stay. Either way I lose.


Hmm, not exactly what I was asking, but I'll agree those are options. So let's take them one at a time in the time I can afford to stay here. Suppose you choose the option to stay. Do you want to stay in the current frame of mind? Or are there options for exploring it with her to find in her own words what is going on in her mind? Is there enough trust to do this? Is there an option to recognize the anger and, even though you say you don't have the means right now, look for the means for counseling to help you deal with the anger you are feeling? Is there an option for another counselor that may be trusted but may not cost? (If you are a member of a church, pastors would be an example of such a counselor). Are there options on this level that can be explored? Even with a binary start, there are more options past the first level, are there not?


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

strange_bound said:


> @deejov So all that matters are the results, and not the motivation behind the results?
> 
> Does she really love me at all?


I meant to be more understanding, I realise it sounded a bit "short".
No, people should be accountable for their actions. But I'm not sure I would call it motivation... a good portion of the time it's mis-understanding. Not understood (even though you probably explained it 20 times) that it was that important... but threatening to leave DID make her realise, oh... it's REALLY important. Click.


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## itgetsbetter (Mar 1, 2012)

Now that your marriage isn't teetering on the edge of ruin, all those feelings you've had all along are coming out. It's finally "safe" to feel them.

I think you're going to feel them awhile. I think they might be too big for you to productively handle on your own though. 

Your wife has a therapist. It may be time to consider one of your own if you don't have one. It may be the best thing you can do for your marriage, but more importantly yourself. You can't have gone through all this without some heavy emotional damage.


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## phantomfan (Mar 7, 2012)

Your situation and mine is very similar. Except I have not yet threatened to leave. It's my next step. I have a lot of the same feelings your dealing with. I agree that therapy is a good idea. It may be beneficial to talk to someone but probably most helpful for you would be for couples therapy at some point. I'd like to think if things improve for my situation consistently that a lot of the hurt I have will begin to heal. Unfortunately I feel like every rejection is like pouring salt on the wound. Still waiting for that to stop.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## strange_bound (Feb 27, 2012)

Thank you, all of you, for being patient with me. Yes I'm really affected at this point and probably emotionally too bruised to come to a rational stand. It feels more like a moral dilemma at this point: should I forgive her or not? What kind of person would I be if I didn't - after all, how can I disregard the fact that people can indeed change?

But there's also fear - what if she makes a 180 degree turn after we have kids? I know what it feels like to be emotionally sidelined, I don't want to go through that ever again. I also know from experience that when I'm pissed off and aloof she can't really fight me. But when I cool down and start to believe everything will be alright somehow we have fights again.

I'm almost scared to be happy. And yes, I should see a counselor - I'll try my best to see one.


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## strange_bound (Feb 27, 2012)

Update- I still haven't been able to see a counselor due to financial issues. As an alternative I'm trying to stay as happy as I can. I try to hang out with my friends, watch movies, listen to music, and make an effort not to be pissed off at my wife. But it's very hard. My work is suffering and my boss has already questioned my slump in productivity.

I'm basically very scared- I have gone through all this before (or so it feels), and I know that once I am my usual happy self again she will revert to her aloof ways. I will ask to have sex with her and even when we agree on a date that is a week away something will turn up or she will simply be too tired... 

Or- she's so desperate to not let me go that she will force herself to have sex with me. Either way once again I'll start questioning our marriage in my head. I don't want to enter that cycle again.

I'm also genuinely concerned that my kids (should I ever have any) will not understand me since the values instilled in them will be different from mine.

On top of all that- my old memories are coming back to haunt me. At the back of my head I mock her every move, thinking, "Now you want to change? After you broke me?" I constantly compare the present to the past, and how I had to become like her to finally get her attention.

Right now my wife is super nice and trying to be cute all the time. She vies for my attention and now ironically I am the aloof one, although I'm trying hard not to be.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

My advise, since you can't get your own IC: Print this page, seal it in an envelope. Give it to her and ask her to open it at her next counseling session. 

She needs to know and understand that you're having these feelings.

On the other hand, you might try reading one of the books about alpha/beta behavior like Athol's book or No More Mr. Nice Guy. I get the feeling it might be helpful in your situation.


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## strange_bound (Feb 27, 2012)

@WorkingOnMe thanks for your advice (sincerely), but that would be disastrous, I wouldn't dare try it. I'm pretty sure that my wife understands that I'm emotionally scarred and that's why I'm as aloof as I am. But giving her this printout in an envelope would possibly make everything explode.

I'll check out the info you suggested.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Strange_bound,

I do believe from all your posts (I've read them all) that your wife is self-absorbed and up to now has not had the capacity to love you. She might not have the capacity to love anyone but herself.

You ask why she waited so long, until you blew up, to take your concerns seriously. For some people it takes an atom bomb to wake them up. Not trying to be harsh, but you waited far too long to drop the big bomb on her. It should have been done 5 or more years ago.

What bothers me about your wife’s counseling is that it’s IC and you do not get a chance to let the counselor know your point of view. Is there a chance that your wife would allow you to talk to her counselor a couple of times?

Since this is all affecting your work performance and brining up serious anger you really do need to detach from her. You need to take care of yourself first. There are things that you can do to work through your anger and feelings. 

One of the best ways I know of is to journal.. even if you do not keep what you write. Sometimes I just sit at the computer and write what is on my mind. Just doing mind dumps… there is something very healing about getting it all out of you. Since no one will ever read it… I don’t worry about what I’m saying.. I can be 100% honest when I write like this. I often delete it after as I don’t want anyone to accidently stumble upon what I wrote. 

Another thing that really helps is physical activity.. long walks, work out, join a sports team.

All of that said, after 6 years of your wife avoiding any intimacy with you I don’t see how you can ever trust that she is in love with you even if she does finally agree to sexually consummate your marriage. The pain is, I am sure, far too deep.


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## strange_bound (Feb 27, 2012)

@EleGirl, thank you so much for reading my posts. I'm really speechless here.

My wife seems open to being intimate now following her counseling, but deep down somewhere I simply don't trust her. When I last initiated sex she kissed me so desperately I felt sorry for her and betrayed at the same time. It was like she was trying too hard.

I think she doesn't know what love is (or at least our definitions of love will never quite match) and that she will never really understand me. Yes, I waited 5 years too long and I deeply regret that. But I think the cultural aspect played a huge part here- in my society people simply don't get divorced, it's too abnormal. To make matters worse, talking about sex except with your spouse is taboo too. Therefore when I told my father 5 years ago that I didn't want to live with my wife anymore he convinced me to think otherwise. And of course I couldn't talk to him about our real problem.

Despite my wife's shortcomings and despite the atom bomb requirement, I strongly believe that my wife would be completely lost without me. She'd probably abandon ties with everybody she knows and get really depressed. She'd also try very hard to get me back, and since she'd likely be unsuccessful, it'd take her a lifetime to get over me. Plus in my society getting remarried is difficult, so she'd likely never return to Nepal. 

Even in my darkest moments I took all that into consideration. I want to be happy in life, but not at the expense of someone else, let alone her. Nonetheless, I don't think she'll ever understand me. For instance, now she's super nice, but she'll still leave trash around the house, which I absolutely hate. She's much more eager to fulfill my emotional needs, but she still won't voluntarily watch an art film with me (I'm into them), although she's suggested watching a horror movie together as a bonding activity (her favorite; I hate them). And this morning she was talking on the phone so loudly I woke up- I had to ask her to go talk in another room.

It may sound like I'm nitpicking here, but that last example sums up what my wife is like- she did go to another room after I asked her, and she did say sorry when she came back. But I had to _ask_ her. If I got a phone call at seven in the morning on a weekend, I'd immediately go to another room because I wouldn't want to disturb her sleep. I care that much for her. She cares for me too, but her brain simply doesn't operate that way. 

To draw more parallels, despite our marital problems I was the one who went online, read, posted, and even saw a counselor. She never took any initiative. Even after I told her about this forum she didn't check it out. I had to ask her to see a counselor- several times- before she actually started seeing one (and later discontinued). I bought her lingerie, asked her about her fantasies, shared mine, bought condoms, tried getting intimate, proposed times when she could get intimate... not her.

Do you see the pattern? She only considers changing her course of action _when_ she meets a roadblock, and should she feel like it. Which is why the fact that she is so nice now and that the counseling is indeed having a good effect is almost getting me depressed. On the flipside- by not acknowledging her efforts to keep this marriage alive, it feels like I'm implying to myself that people can't change for the better -and I feel like a lousy human being. 

I knew she wouldn't be able to take MC without a dose of IC, so I suggested she go for IC. I haven't talked to my wife about whether or not I could see her counselor. Do you think it would help? As for me, I spend quite a bit of time on this forum to try and understand my situation better. That helps. I'm not much into journal writing, but I basically try relaxing by watching movies, listening to music, reading, etc. As you say, the pain is far too deep.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

strange_bound said:


> @deejov So all that matters are the results, and not the motivation behind the results?
> 
> Does she really love me at all?


Well, that is something you have to figure out for yourself I suppose.

There are three possibilities:

1) She likes the idea of you leaving even less than having sex, so she is just toughing it out.

2) She is choosing to cheerfully meet your need out of respect for you and the marriage, even though she would not be having sex with you if it were entirely up to her.

3) She has had a breakthrough with her therapist and actually likes sex now.

You should not settle for (1), but (2) may we workable depending on your mindset and how involved she actually is. The question is "what will you accept".


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## strange_bound (Feb 27, 2012)

@DTO thanks for responding. Unfortunately (1) could be the case here since if I didn't complain about not having sex she could go on sexlessly in our marriage forever. (2) is unlikely since it took my a lot of effort to even get to a counselor and she never initiated sex herself. I'm wondering how you would explain (3).


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I'm not clear on whether you're having sex with your wife yet or not. Are you just getting closer? Or are you actually doing it now.


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## strange_bound (Feb 27, 2012)

@WorkingOnMe no sex.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

So she is not really considering sex.

Can she articulate why she does not want sex? Now that she is in counseling is she getting any closer. 

I think that you going to talk to her counselor at least once or twice might help. I wonder if your wife has even told her counselor about the lack of sex in the marriage. If she is in avoidance mode she might not tell anyone.

I'm at a loss as there is nothing that anyone can do if your wife does not want sex. She should not need weeks and months of IC to decide wether or not she wants sex after 6 years of no sex. 

I agree with you that she most likely will not do well divorced from you... she can only behave this badly where she feels 100% safe. What it reminds me of is that I've read that children usually act out the most with the parent they feel the safest with. 

Your wife seems to believe that you will love her and stay with her forever no matter what she does or does not do.

On the issues of her lack of consideration, like talking on the phone in the room while you are still asleep, somehow your wife grew up not knowing about common courtesies and how to treat someone well. So I think you need to teach her these things as you have been.


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## strange_bound (Feb 27, 2012)

@EleGirl she says she doesn't know why she doesn't feel the urge. Which is why I've even wondered if she's asexual, but she can't really be that since she was attracted to me very sexually before we were married.

She says counseling has started working for her and she can finally face her issues. She has told her counselor about our sexless marriage and in fact the counselor she sought out is supposed to specialize in this kind of therapy.

Regarding her lack of consideration/courtesies, it gets really hard sometimes as it feels like I practically have to parent her. Which is not what I want to do. She on the other hand sometimes gets frustrated, complaining that it's very hard to please me.

And yes she does seem convinced that no matter what I won't leave her. The thing I fear the most in life at this stage is that if I do somehow convince myself to give my marriage another shot and then the old problems resurface, then I'll probably not only break up my marriage but also will be too emotionally scarred to even feel connected to my family. Already I'm so tired that sometimes I feel I can't go on in life.


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## Dar-li (Mar 14, 2012)

You must know some argument about the past of the east and his culture. How the old Greek hided strange dreams that dream that premise them like devil spirits that live in a far and very big island that seems like 'Madagascar' ( the universal maps reflect and in this mini-world), is still a magical world full of greek figures...
Was this evil empire that destroy the east, all natural, and his culture and are those evil wave that give troubel to you and your relation with your wife....the trips to Nepal or other old nature is the only hope...Alah and his vikings have ruled again the world and hate the east, rise of sun...
The east people are maybe the best race, but have failed to find the threads of their culture. This culture is a strange and evil one and is not terrestrial.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

strange_bound said:


> @DTO thanks for responding. Unfortunately (1) could be the case here since if I didn't complain about not having sex she could go on sexlessly in our marriage forever. (2) is unlikely since it took my a lot of effort to even get to a counselor and she never initiated sex herself. I'm wondering how you would explain (3).


After I posted this I saw where you confirmed that you were not having sex with your wife. I understood otherwise, assuming that you WERE having sex but were unsure of her motivation.

So, you can think of those three possibilities as something to consider once you resume having sex with your wife. For now, I'm concerned that your wife won't work with a therapist, since she is not overcoming her issues on her own.

From my time with my ex, I learned two things: (1) if these types of problems persist for a while, it is very unlikely they will resolve without professional assistance, and (2) sometimes the refuser does not want to be helped. Had I to do it over again, I would have set a boundary (and early on); you may want to consider doing the same.

You can say something like "it's bad enough we have to work through this. You not making an earnest effort to resolve is unacceptable. Sexual satisfaction is not only an integral part of marriage but a priority as well. You have a decision to make."


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

DTO said:


> After I posted this I saw where you confirmed that you were not having sex with your wife. I understood otherwise, assuming that you WERE having sex but were unsure of her motivation.
> 
> So, you can think of those three possibilities as something to consider once you resume having sex with your wife. For now, I'm concerned that your wife won't work with a therapist, since she is not overcoming her issues on her own.
> 
> ...


I think you still don't understand. He can't "resume" sex. He's never had it. He and his wife of 6 years are both still virgins.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

strange_bound said:


> @EleGirl she says she doesn't know why she doesn't feel the urge. Which is why I've even wondered if she's asexual, but she can't really be that since she was attracted to me very sexually before we were married.
> 
> She says counseling has started working for her and she can finally face her issues. She has told her counselor about our sexless marriage and in fact the counselor she sought out is supposed to specialize in this kind of therapy.
> 
> ...


While it's a plus that she sought out a counselor specializing in these issues, I see several problem areas here.

One is your account that she refuses to see her counselor regularly. You know how people pay for gym memberships but do not go and thus don't see results? That's exactly what your wife is doing.

Two, your wife needs to know exactly where you stand with her on this. If it's a deal breaker, she deserves to know. Sometimes people need both the metaphorical "carrot" and "stick" to do the right thing; that's just reality. There is a strong chance that your wife's sense of urgency is tied to potential consequences.

Three, if your wife feels you are hard to please, and there is no clarity of expectation, you need to fix that now. Make known what you expect to receive and are willing to give. Nothing saps enthusiasm faster than feeling like you are chasing a moving target. Also, if your wife feels that your expectations are unattainable, you need to figure out what to do about it now.

Fourth, you are going to have to make yourself vulnerable. Resentment will sap her will to change and may make you question her motives (perhaps this is already happening?). The risk of future pain is simply the price of potentially being in a good relationship, whether with your wife or with someone else.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I think you still don't understand. He can't "resume" sex. He's never had it. He and his wife of 6 years are both still virgins.


Missed that too. Thanks for the heads-up.

My advice stands; he needs to insist on an earnest effort. She needs to do a "full-court press" - marital counseling, individual therapy, complete physical. The only thing them still being virgins tells me is that this is unlikely to be a marital issue - but marital counseling may still help if for no other reason than to provide a safe venue for him to express his needs and feelings and her to learn what it means to be married.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I agree. It's good advice. I feel for Strange Bound, it just seems like a really, well, strange situation. Very unfortunate.


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## strange_bound (Feb 27, 2012)

Thanks everybody for your kind feedback. Here's a shocker: turns out I'm _not_ a virgin. Apparently we had had sex once - on the night when I first told her, very seriously, that I couldn't live with her like this. 

We fought; she felt betrayed (strangely); and then we ended up making out. The whole episode indeed happened but it constantly skips my conscious mind because that whole fight and its aftermath is a blur to me. It was just too many intense emotions going off at the same time. I recall the fact that the "love making" happened but honestly cannot remember at all what the experience was like. 

(Well I somewhat do- it was confusing and I wasn't even sure that the shot was fired in the right place, if you get what I mean. Overall a very confusing and underwhelming experience- so much so that I don't even remember it usually. I only found out about this because I vaguely remembered it after posting here and confirmed with my wife. Anyway, forgettable make-up sex once is probably worse than not having sex ever- and I feel like a virgin anyway.)

Some clarifications: my wife is indeed pursuing counseling by herself now (upon my insistence). My previous attempts to get her to see a counselor succeeded only once, when she somewhat non-seriously (IMO) saw a counselor twice (different from the current one). She gave up because she couldn't make sense of it. Anyway this time around- since our Nepal trip, early February that is- she seems genuinely dedicated to addressing her issues.

Will her seeking professional help really save our marriage? I don't know, but since she seems serious about trying I don't want to pull the rug from under her feet, especially when _I_ pushed her to go. As for me, I hope to see a counselor myself once I get my next paycheck. All in all I think eventually my wife's counselor will talk to us together sometime, or send us to a MC.

Problem: when I ask my wife what's wrong with our marriage, she tells me "lack of sex". Not true, and I'm sad she doesn't (or doesn't want to) realize that simply a lack of physical attraction couldn't have made things get so bad. There is absolutely no intimacy between us- I can't remember when was the last time I shared a passionate kiss with her. She clings on to me, cuddles with me and all that, but we don't even go anywhere near being intimate physically. All this points to a psychological/emotional distance.

On some days I feel really sorry for myself- but I understand that self-pity will get me nowhere, so I'd rather stand up and demand what I want.


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