# Should I leave the best LDR I've ever had b/c it will not result in marriage?



## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

I'm in a 3 year relationship with a man, and overall, I think that it's the best LTR I've ever had. 

We hardly ever argue, and we have a loving, trusting, and highly compatible relationship. Both of us have been married before and we both have two kids, although mine are much younger than his, and he has an adult child and an mild-moderate autistic child who is able to cook, dress himself, and is articulate, but has the social mental ability of approximately an 8 or 9 year old. We each own our own homes, and live separately. We don't live far from each other, and we have been happy being able to spend alone time with our own children and then alone time with each other when our children are with our exes.

The issue is that he doesn't want to get married, and I do. He has been married before and doesn't want to do it again although he keeps on saying that he doesn't want me to be unhappy either so let's keep on discussing the issue. I also realize that from a practical standpoint the best thing to do is to NOT marry him because of our financial/kids situation. He has more financial concerns than I do, and I probably have more assets than he does, and since I am well-educated, have a lucrative career and am 9 years younger than he is, my earning potential is probably higher than his. Thus, if I stay with him the best thing we can hope to move towards in few years (when my kids are older) is living together for the rest of our lives without marriage, and contractual agreements to arrange for health care decisions and any other financial/health issue.

Sometimes, I think I'm okay with this. Sometimes, I get so sad and down about the fact that I need to give up on the idea of marriage and having a man who is eager to marry me and wants to commit to taking care of each other financially and health-wise for the rest of our lives.

I have told him that even though he does not want to get married and I do, I don't think I can leave him because I love him, and I can't envision leaving a man that I love.

However, I can't help but have more and more frequent moments of sadness over the loss of opportunity to be married again. 

Should I just be happy with what I have? 

If I leave him, I think I will be sad about leaving him because we have a great relationship and we won't be parting on bad terms. I may not find another man who complements me as much as he does and who I love as much.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I think you should move on. You will find someone else to love. 

This guy has made it clear he does not want what you want. The sooner you end it, the sooner the right man can come into your life.


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## barbados (Aug 30, 2012)

What are his reasons for not wanting to get married again ?

If things are going so good between you, why IS getting married again so important to you ?

You stated the following : " the idea of marriage and having a man who is eager to marry me and wants to commit to taking care of each other financially and health-wise for the rest of our lives."

However, as you have been married before, you know this is not guaranteed. It didn't happen for you the first time, correct ? 

And why can't two people "commit to taking care of each other financially and health-wise for the rest of our lives." without getting married ?


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## Rayloveshiswife (Sep 25, 2013)

There are many married couples that are married and not as happy as the two of you seem to be. Even if you left him and found someone to marry, there is no guarantee you would end up happy long term. Not sure I agree with jld's recommendation to cut and run, love and compatibility is hard to find.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

jld said:


> I think you should move on. You will find someone else to love.
> 
> This guy has made it clear he does not want what you want. The sooner you end it, the sooner the right man can come into your life.



I would tend to agree with you.

However, when I read the other problems that people in live-in/marriage situations have like spousal put-downs, cheating, not helping with chores, etc., I feel like I am better off staying in my current relationship.

I have been married and it was not pleasant being married to a man who swore at me, and threatened me with a knife, and wouldn't help with the kids, and didn't want to work. 

Perhaps marriage is like child-birth, you forget the pain after the fact, until it happens again. 

I realize that not all marriages are painful, but if you are not married to the right person, it is and marriage is not a guarantee of happiness.

Overall, I do have happiness with my bf if I stop idealizing the idea of marriage. We have what most people probably want: a loving, trusting, and highly compatible LDR. 

I think reading the other threads on this board helped me to get over the idea of marriage.


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

Rayloveshiswife said:


> There are many married couples that are married and not as happy as the two of you seem to be. Even if you left him and found someone to marry, there is no guarantee you would end up happy long term. Not sure I agree with jld's recommendation to cut and run, love and compatibility is hard to find.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I posted my reply to jld after I read your post. I think I tend to agree with you more than I agree with jld. 

I've been staying away from my bf for the past two days and he's worried. I can tell because he has been calling me and asking me what's wrong. I didn't want to whine about the marriage issue with him because we've already talked about it and I understand his viewpoint. I just wanted some time to think about whether I want to stay in this relationship.

Thanks for your post.


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

barbados said:


> What are his reasons for not wanting to get married again ?
> 
> If things are going so good between you, why IS getting married again so important to you ?
> 
> ...


Thanks for your post. I posted my reply post to jld before I read your post. I came to the same conclusion that you did after reading the other threads on this board. I have to stop idealizing marriage, and thinking that it's the only solution and that if I am not married then my relationship is a waste of time or he's using me for sex/companionship or I'm just his Ms. Right Now and not Ms. Right. 

If we are happy, and in a loving, trusting, and highly compatible relationship then that is the type of relationship that I should idealize regardless of whether we have a ceremony or a legal document to celebrate it. 

In fact, if the relationship turns sour, given that I have more assets, it would be to my detriment to get married. He is a good guy to not want to take advantage of my financial situation and want to get married. He just doesn't want to get married, but he has shown that he's committed, and loyal to me.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Love advice, I obviously don't know you or the full detail of your situation. I can only offer my gut reaction.

You are having increasing moments of sadness--does that sound healthy to you?

You have more money, potential money, and youth than he does--and you are the one wanting marriage?

I think breaking it off might actually end up with his realizing he actually does want to marry you. But if it doesn't, you will at least be free to let a new, marriage-minded man into your life.

Otoh, being away from him for a while may make you realize you truly do not need marriage like you thought, and then you can go back to him happily, and not have the spells of sadness.

Abundance mentality-- there are many, many fish in the sea.

But you know your own situation best.


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

jld said:


> Love advice, I obviously don't know you or the full detail of your situation. I can only offer my gut reaction.
> 
> You are having increasing moments of sadness--does that sound healthy to you?
> 
> ...


Thanks for your advice, jld.

I agree that I think it doesn't sound healthy to have increasing moments of sadness. 

That's why I wanted to get some advice and try to get over the issues that are causing me to be unhappy about my current LTR. 

I didn't know whether I can get over it, and somehow reading the other threads on this board helped me to remember what marriage was like in the past for me, and how it could be if it isn't a good marriage. Reading the other threads on this board also helped me to realize that I have a very good relationship that gives me great happiness if I didn't think about the marriage issue so often and if I didn't let my idealization of marriage to make me feel sad about not being married. 

The ultimate goal is to be in a good LTR, and not necessarily marriage unless I want more children (which I don't). Perhaps I didn't realize how good my relationship is until now. Thanks.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Why doesn't he want to be married? Why do you want to get married? How far apart is your LDR? How often/much do you get to see each other? 

C


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Sounds like you have gained some perspective from just a few posts. At this stage in life marriage might feel like a new beginning but for what? A young couple marry to create a family. In some sense they want formal commitment because they lack the life experience to know what stable relationship is. They want to give it sinew and bone that just sleeping together doesn't provide.

You have a much better idea of what a successful relationship is. If you enjoy spending time with your bf, that may be enough for happiness, especially if the relationshp endures.

Have you ever had a fight, conflict? That would test your relationship. 

Do you have a good sex life?

Is he considerate of your?

Does he appreciate you?

Are you growing together in your lives?

Are you sharing more and more of your intimate thoughts and feelings?

Is your appreciation for each other growing?

It is possible that he loves you and feels even closer to you than he ever felt to his ex. He may fear that marriage will jeapordize that. Men are not very romantic about marriage.

There is one important reason to get married. A spouse can take care of you in medical emergencies. A lover does not have this right.

Did you ever ask him if he wanted another child?


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> Sounds like you have gained some perspective from just a few posts. At this stage in life marriage might feel like a new beginning but for what? A young couple marry to create a family. In some sense they want formal commitment because they lack the life experience to know what stable relationship is. They want to give it sinew and bone that just sleeping together doesn't provide.
> 
> You have a much better idea of what a successful relationship is. If you enjoy spending time with your bf, that may be enough for happiness, especially if the relationshp endures.
> 
> ...


Yes, we have a really good sex life. He's not open to new things, but what he's got, he's done well with. I knew the moment we kissed that he felt familiar and right. It's hard to explain. Sometimes, when I was dating before I met my bf, I was attracted to the person I was dating, but the kissing did not leave me feeling more attracted to him. With my bf, I like the way he smells. 

He is very considerate and he appreciates me. We are growing more comfortable with each other with each year that we are with each other.

I am an attorney and I know that we can solve the emergency contact health issues stuff with a simple agreement. 

I just listened to some of the familiar social adages about men who don't want to buy the milk when they have it for free, and ended up doubting whether if really loves me if he doesn't want to marry me, etc. We've all heard of or read the book "He's not that into you" which says that if he doesn't want to marry you, he's not that into you. I felt sad about that and wondered if that's how he felt about me. I felt less-than because of that and I felt sad. 

After reading the other posts, I remember that marriage is not all that it's idealized to be if one is not with the right person. It's actually in my financial detriment to marry him. Of course, I would still love a proposal from him and I would marry him if he asked. I think he's a good person and I am a lawyer so I know how to protect myself from being taken advantage of. I think I just need to stop thinking that marriage is the only way to have a great relationship.

We both don't want more children.


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

PBear said:


> Why doesn't he want to be married? Why do you want to get married? How far apart is your LDR? How often/much do you get to see each other?
> 
> C


We get to see each other 3 to 4 times a week. He has been married before and his ex-wife cheated on him, and it was a terrible relationship and now he has to pay lifetime alimony to her on top of spousal support. We don't live far apart from each other.

I want to get married because I bought into the idealized fantasy and advice of the general public that if he's into you, he's ask you to marry him. If he doesn't, he doesn't really love you, and the "he's not that into you" part really made me sad.


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

End the relationship, you should not have to settle in order to just stay in a relationship.
If what you want is to be married, then wait for the man who wants the same thing you do.
If you stay with this man, hoping against hope that he will change his mind, you're most likely going to end up bitter that you spent those years with him, "wasting your time."
He has been honest, he does not want to get married again, take that at face value & make your decision. 
Don't compromise on something this important.


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

Phenix70 said:


> End the relationship, you should not have to settle in order to just stay in a relationship.
> If what you want is to be married, then wait for the man who wants the same thing you do.
> If you stay with this man, hoping against hope that he will change his mind, you're most likely going to end up bitter that you spent those years with him, "wasting your time."
> He has been honest, he does not want to get married again, take that at face value & make your decision.
> Don't compromise on something this important.


"Wasting time" is what I would like to have a discussion about.

I've heard this phrase being used often and I think it's one of the roots of my sadness.

Is it wasting time to be married to a man, for example, for 25 years, and then have him leave you for another woman? 

Is it wasting time to be married to a man and then finding out that he has cheated on you?

Is it wasting time to be married and unhappy?

Why is he wasting my time and why am I wasting his time? We both don't want more children and we are in a loving, trusting and highly compatible relationship for 3 years. 

If this relationship ends after 6 years of being in a loving, trusting and highly compatible LTR, are those 6 years wasted? 

If I am happy during those 6 years, and the relationship ended for some reason, I don't think 6 years of being happy is wasting my time even if I do want to be married. 

I would consider 2 or 4 years of my 6 years of marriage to be wasting my time because I was really unhappy.


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## barbados (Aug 30, 2012)

loveadvice said:


> *If we are happy, and in a loving, trusting, and highly compatible relationship then that is the type of relationship that I should idealize regardless of whether we have a ceremony or a legal document to celebrate it. *
> 
> In fact, if the relationship turns sour, given that I have more assets, it would be to my detriment to get married. He is a good guy to not want to take advantage of my financial situation and want to get married. He just doesn't want to get married, but he has shown that he's committed, and loyal to me.


:iagree: :smthumbup:

You're both in a good place, you get along, sex life is good, and there seems to be mutual respect. You don't need a legal document to make it any more "REAL". Enjoy this and enjoy life. Believe me when I tell you that you have more than a lot of married couples have.


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## scatty (Mar 15, 2013)

Why do you want to be married? Is it something in your religion/beliefs, or is it people asking "why the heck aren't you two married yet?" I may be biased, but I've been with the same man 24 years today, and we are thinking of getting cheap rings just so we don't have to answer ignorant questions anymore. 

But the fact that you are even asking this on a message board makes me believe maybe you really DO want to make it official. I am ready to just lie about it and we both don't give a damn. But maybe you do..the question is...why? Listen to your heart, your mind, and your partner and make a decision you can live with.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

loveadvice said:


> We get to see each other 3 to 4 times a week. He has been married before and his ex-wife cheated on him, and it was a terrible relationship and now he has to pay lifetime alimony to her on top of spousal support. We don't live far apart from each other.


Your thread title says "LDR" which is an acronym for Long Distance Relationship. Maybe you mean Long Term Relationship.



> I want to get married because I bought into the idealized fantasy and advice of the general public that if he's into you, he's ask you to marry him. If he doesn't, he doesn't really love you, and the "he's not that into you" part really made me sad.


Do you believe he's not that into you? Does it feel like he's not that into you by the way he treats you? Does it feel like he's not involved and emotionally invested in your relationship?

If his wife cheated on him and he's paying a lot of alimony, that's very likely high on his list of reasons why he doesn't want to marry again. His reasons might have zero to do with how into you he is.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Agree with NoraJane. He may have sworn to himself never to marry because he was burned.

Enjoy your relationship. Doesn't sound like there is anything wrong at all with it. As long as you feel loved and that it is not an infatuation, then there is no need to panic. People can be in LTR and have children before they formally marry.

If either of you wanted a child, that would be a game changer. But if he is paying life time alimony, he must be well into his 30s. You both have children and don't feel that having one would add to your relationship, so that is the one compelling reason to get married.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

loveadvice said:


> Should I just be happy with what I have?


I'm not reading other replies - in a bit of a hurry at the moment. 

Only you can decide what to do. 

If you stay, then I'd encourage you to give up on the idea of marriage altogether. You cannot meet your Mr. Right and be seen by him as a quality person while seeing someone else. Holding onto the idea of marriage with a man who is holding onto the idea of singlehood will only bring resentment. I suspect that is part of his reason for preferring a LDR rather than one that requires constant emotional availability. You may also have some things going on there, which would be important to consider when deciding to leave or stay. 

If you leave, you'll have to be emotionally available to a new partner, and you'll have to spend some time as a single person. If you can't be ok with those ideas, and the thought of living without your LD guy is just too much, then you have to find a way to give up your own values without resenting him for it. 

Best wishes!


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## Omego (Apr 17, 2013)

loveadvice said:


> I'm in a 3 year relationship with a man, and overall, I think that it's the best LDR I've ever had.
> 
> We hardly ever argue, and we have a loving, trusting, and highly compatible relationship. Both of us have been married before and we both have two kids, although mine are much younger than his, and he has an adult child and an mild-moderate autistic child who is able to cook, dress himself, and is articulate, but has the social mental ability of approximately an 8 or 9 year old. We each own our own homes, and live separately. We don't live far from each other, and we have been happy being able to spend alone time with our own children and then alone time with each other when our children are with our exes.
> 
> ...


It sounds as though you will be dissatisfied without marriage in the long run. Ingrained beliefs and expectations are hard to shake, no matter how much you rationalize them.


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

scatty said:


> Why do you want to be married? Is it something in your religion/beliefs, or is it people asking "why the heck aren't you two married yet?" I may be biased, but I've been with the same man 24 years today, and we are thinking of getting cheap rings just so we don't have to answer ignorant questions anymore.
> 
> But the fact that you are even asking this on a message board makes me believe maybe you really DO want to make it official. I am ready to just lie about it and we both don't give a damn. But maybe you do..the question is...why? Listen to your heart, your mind, and your partner and make a decision you can live with.


My desire to marry is not rooted in religion. It's probably rooted in cultural/societal norms taught to me since childhood through fairy tales like Cinderella, and various vehicles through modern media. Even the book "He's not that into you" which was written by a man teaches that if a man is not asking you to marry him, he's not that into you. It's hard to overcome commonplace notions that not being married means that the woman is not as loved by the man or he's not that into that woman. 

Why did you and your bf decide not to get married? Have you ever regretted your decision? 

By the way, there are tax benefits to being married if you own appreciated property such as real estate together when the first person passes away. The concepts are called "step-up" in basis and "unlimited marital deduction" if you want to consult your attorney or look them up yourself.


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

Omego said:


> It sounds as though you will be dissatisfied without marriage in the long run. Ingrained beliefs and expectations are hard to shake, no matter how much you rationalize them.


I agree it will be hard to shake which is why I have moments of sadness.

However, if the ingrained thoughts are not the best solution for the situation, and the better one is the one that's out-of-the-box, then maybe one has to let rational thought overcome custom.


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

norajane said:


> Your thread title says "LDR" which is an acronym for Long Distance Relationship. Maybe you mean Long Term Relationship.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, sorry all, it meant LTR. We live close by to each other.

I feel loved by him, but I don't think that he feels that he is responsible for my well-being as he would be if he were married to me, and I feel as though we are together, but separate, and not together as a married couple would be. And there is that feeling that he has an easy way out at any time. Of course, that may be a good thing if one can avoid a nasty divorce/separation of assets. And, there is a certain sadness with the thought that I've lost the opportunity to be one-unit with someone again.

Perhaps, as I stated in my prior emails, given both of our situations, it would be better for me to NOT get married.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

Why do any of us actually *need* to get married? My DH and I aren't religious, are aware that it's just a piece of paper that gives us certain legal rights in regards to children, property etc, and yet, there's that hard to describe feeling that it's more about an oath to each other, one that you want witnessed and acknowledged by friends and family that this is the person you want to be with forever. Of course, looking at the divorce rate makes it feel like it's meaningless, but that's just a public and legal acknowledgement of an oath that's broken, but that oath is just as real, and if broken, just as painful, to a couple that keep it a private matter between them.

Maybe it's just that oath that you want from him, to feel more secure in planning for your future together.


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

loveadvice said:


> "Wasting time" is what I would like to have a discussion about.
> 
> I've heard this phrase being used often and I think it's one of the roots of my sadness.
> 
> ...


I'm so glad you noticed that I put "wasting time" in quotes, as I think it's something that can only be determined by the individual.
To me, being in a relationship that works for as long as it works, is NEVER a waste because while you're in it, you ARE getting something out it.
Too many people, whether because they're angry, jealous, disillusioned or all the above, will often rewrite their own relationship history & say their relationship was a waste, maybe to feel better or maybe to swallow the bitter pill that was the end. 
What you need to keep in mind is if you do stay with this man, that you harbor no expectations of getting married if he stands by his decision to never marry again.
Don't stay thinking you can change him, take it at face value, enjoy your time together & then it won't be a waste to you. 
BUT, if you stay with him, hoping he will see the light & marry you, only to finally realize he was telling the truth all along, that he won't marry you, you can't be upset & say it was a waste because you stayed knowing full well what his limitations were.


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

Phenix70 said:


> I'm so glad you noticed that I put "wasting time" in quotes, as I think it's something that can only be determined by the individual.
> To me, being in a relationship that works for as long as it works, is NEVER a waste because while you're in it, you ARE getting something out it.
> Too many people, whether because they're angry, jealous, disillusioned or all the above, will often rewrite their own relationship history & say their relationship was a waste, maybe to feel better or maybe to swallow the bitter pill that was the end.
> What you need to keep in mind is if you do stay with this man, that you harbor no expectations of getting married if he stands by his decision to never marry again.
> ...


I should have asked him about his position on marriage early in our relationship. I didn't ask him because I was afraid of jumping the gun before our relationship solidified.

Now, I am firmly invested in our 3 year relationship and I love him, and find it impossible to leave a man I love. 

If I were ever to break up with him, and date again, I would ask a man early in the relationship what his thoughts on marriage are before I invest my time and emotions into a relationship.

I don't think that it is a waste of my time to be with him because I don't want to have more children and I have enjoyed my time with him. 

I will admit that I'm not a smart woman in terms of choosing the right relationship because I have unwittingly placed myself in this position. 

I think that I am in the best relationship I've been in my life. The only element missing is that I have to give up my wish to be married again. 

It's a hard pill to swallow. I struggle with it everyday. 

Every time I hear about an engagement, I get a little sad. 

I am in danger of ruining a good relationship over this issue, but I will not blame him for wasting my time. I didn't ask the right questions at the right time.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

loveadvice said:


> Yes, sorry all, it meant LTR. We live close by to each other.
> 
> *I feel loved by him, but I don't think that he feels that he is responsible for my well-being as he would be if he were married to me, and I feel as though we are together, but separate, and not together as a married couple would be. And there is that feeling that he has an easy way out at any time. * Of course, that may be a good thing if one can avoid a nasty divorce/separation of assets. And, there is a certain sadness with the thought that I've lost the opportunity to be one-unit with someone again.
> 
> Perhaps, as I stated in my prior emails, given both of our situations, it would be better for me to NOT get married.


This is important. In thread after thread on TAM the wise advise the troubled that you alone are responsible for your happinesss. The success of a relationship is gravy. Is this fair or only rationalization to gain self respect and autonomy in troubled codependent relationships?

Your LTR partner may feel that he has found his soul mate after the ruins of divorce.

People often prefer puppies to grown dogs because they want the entire bonding experience with the innocent. Whose to say that getting grown dog with a history will not turn out to be a very successful relationship even if it began at later stage. It is a different relationship.

How old are you both?

Do you think if he wanted to marry you, you would want to have another child?

What if he started talking about having a child, would you break it off with him? Ultimately, at some level wanting to have man's child is the definitve statement from a woman about her being a one man woman. You are in some sense also holding back.

My aunt, a retired professor, divorced my cheating uncle, another professor. She found a boyfriend, a man who lived down the street from my childhood home. That old guy is also a retired professor. They travel together. They are so old I cannot imagine them having sex, but who knows. I don't think they will ever marry or mingle assets but they are still SO as far as I know.

They both have been introduced to children and grandchildren.

Going back to what will make you happy: you want what you want. I don't think it is cultural. I think Cinderella, Snow White, Hansel and Gretel and all the other archetypical tales resonate with our liminal core being. At an evolutionary level you want him to engage 100 percent the defence of you and your womb. That is the the commitment that you want, even if your educated modern mind want rational happy arrangement that does not strain anyone.

Men undergo vasectomies. From an evolutionary point of view it is crazy, volunteering to be sterile, unless the children one already have will better prosper without competition.

Total commitment and convenience are in some sense incompatible. How many couples are truly until death do we part, even if the spouse turns out to be deeply flawed, falls ill, etc?


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> This is important. In thread after thread on TAM the wise advise the troubled that you alone are responsible for your happinesss. The success of a relationship is gravy. Is this fair or only rationalization to gain self respect and autonomy in troubled codependent relationships?
> 
> Your LTR partner may feel that he has found his soul mate after the ruins of divorce.
> 
> ...


I think you're right about the social norms I've been taught and perhaps there is an evolutionary element to my irrational need for marriage even when marriage is against my own financial interest.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

loveadvice said:


> I think you're right about the social norms I've been taught and perhaps there is an evolutionary element to my irrational need for marriage even when marriage is against my own financial interest.


Relations between the sexes are driven primarily by primative instincts. Monogamous marriage is the human invention that allows civilization. But if your current relationship is monogamous, civilized and passionate, then you are more or less married. Moreover, you're beating the odds.

Can your relationship go to a higher level, make you even happier? What you really desire is more security. Money you both have, but if and when he spends money on you, that means more than the money itself, I presume.

There are men who don't know how to date their wives or SO. They feel so comfortable because there is a contract that implicity (or so we believe) guarantees sex, fidelity, emotional support, loyalty, etc. In reality, for many couples this wanes. In general a man has to excite his wife's interest.

Does he do things for you?

Does he talk to you about important things?

Does he listen to you if you talk about your interests/problems?

Do you take vacations together? Do your children meet? (Sorry if you already wrote about it).

Did you ever talk about not dating others?

If your sex life is good, he'll stick with you. Assume he has integrity and his past experience makes him place a high value on loyalty and fidelity.


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> Relations between the sexes are driven primarily by primative instincts. Monogamous marriage is the human invention that allows civilization. But if your current relationship is monogamous, civilized and passionate, then you are more or less married. Moreover, you're beating the odds.
> 
> Can your relationship go to a higher level, make you even happier? What you really desire is more security. Money you both have, but if and when he spends money on you, that means more than the money itself, I presume.
> 
> ...



I think you really understand how I am feeling about marriage and why I desire it. Yes to all those questions you asked. He is really a very good man. His wife cheated on him, but he never cheated on her. I think he's one woman man. He doesn't fool around when he's in a relationship. He says it takes too much effort to date two woman at a time.


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

loveadvice said:


> I should have asked him about his position on marriage early in our relationship. I didn't ask him because I was afraid of jumping the gun before our relationship solidified.
> 
> Now, I am firmly invested in our 3 year relationship and I love him, and find it impossible to leave a man I love.
> 
> ...


I did not get married until I was 38, one reason was because I never bothered to ask my previous SO's whether or not they wanted to get married early enough in the relationship, which put me in the position of not being fully equal in the relationship.
Instead of "being heard" regarding what I wanted, getting married, I allowed myself to stay in relationships for all the wrong reasons.
While I did have fulfilling relationships, there was always something missing because I never did get to the penultimate, which was marriage.
I began to take inventory of where I was in my life & how I wanted to spend the rest of my life.
I ended my relationship at the time & turned my focus onto my future. 
I let my now husband know from the get go, that I wanted to be married someday & told him if that was a deal breaker for him, then we could part ways, no hard feelings.
He respected me for standing up for what I wanted & for not giving up in order to keep the status quo. 

I think that while a person can be present in a monogamous relationship, I don't they are truly vested until after they say "I Do."
There is something about those vows, that bind people in a way that a non-marriage does not.
This isn't to say that there are not relationships that flourish without marriage, but I think those relationships exceptions & not the rule.

Going back to you saying you may ruin a good relationship over your desire to be married.
Do you not believe you deserve a GREAT relationship? 
Why should you shutter your desire to be wed in order to keep a man?
If there's anything I have learned in my 43 years, it's that I would rather be alone than EVER again settle for relationship just to avoid being alone.

Just as one's desire to have children often doesn't change when their SO doesn't want children, I doubt your desire to be married will wane.


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

Phenix70 said:


> I did not get married until I was 38, one reason was because I never bothered to ask my previous SO's whether or not they wanted to get married early enough in the relationship, which put me in the position of not being fully equal in the relationship.
> Instead of "being heard" regarding what I wanted, getting married, I allowed myself to stay in relationships for all the wrong reasons.
> While I did have fulfilling relationships, there was always something missing because I never did get to the penultimate, which was marriage.
> I began to take inventory of where I was in my life & how I wanted to spend the rest of my life.
> ...


I think that is cause of my angst about not being married is that I don't think deep in my heart that a LTR without marriage is tantamount to a marriage in terms of commitment.

I don't want to leave him NOT because I'm afraid of being alone. I'm afraid to leave him because I know he's a good man and he's who I love and I know we are a really good match for each other in terms of compatibility.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

> Just as one's desire to have children often doesn't change when their SO doesn't want children, I doubt your desire to be married will wane.


:iagree:

Obviously you should entirely drop the topic of marriage because talking about your desire for it will undermine your relationship. You get that, I know, but just keep your resolve.

Men are less complicated than women. From the way you describe him he is the guy for you.

The more you do together, the more likely he is to one day change his position. If you like music, go together. Good inde bands in your town or nearby? Go. Like classical music or jazz? Go.

Watch quality films together, not the sappy Hollywood ones with the happy endings but the ones that force you to ask questions about life.

Your children are of different ages. Is the current agreement not to introduce them? I think de facto step siblings amount to a family and will move you closer to marriage, formal or informal. If he is good to your kids and visa versa, that will bind you.

You are a lawyer, right? Go to 50,000ft and look at marriage. It is an institution that depends on an environment that no longer exists. Marriage was set up when there was not birth control, no telephones, no divorce, either in many places.

Today there are all sorts of stresses. Internet porn, Facebook, mobility (cars, planes), mortgage crisis, rootlessness, etc. You are both skeptical people, having come so far in life. It is not surprizing that he is not romantic about marriage. You are not a 100 percent believer either, otherwise you would just leave him.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

loveadvice said:


> I think that is cause of my angst about not being married is that I don't think deep in my heart that a LTR without marriage is tantamount to a marriage in terms of commitment.
> 
> I don't want to leave him NOT because I'm afraid of being alone. I'm afraid to leave him because I know he's a good man and he's who I love and I know we are a really good match for each other in terms of compatibility.


Now that I have some time, I've read the replies and your additions to your original post, and I am honing in on the elephant in the room, so to speak. 

Although you have repeatedly said that he's a good man, highly compatible, and that you love him, what you haven't said are the answers to questions about his attitudes and behavior. 

I'm getting a strong feeling that you're asking yourself this marriage question because he's not acting terribly committed. The only thing I saw you say in this regard was:



loveadvice said:


> I feel loved by him, but I don't think that he feels that he is responsible for my well-being as he would be if he were married to me, and I feel as though we are together, but separate, and not together as a married couple would be. And there is that feeling that he has an easy way out at any time.


After reading that, and your other posts, I suspect that while you say you feel loved, you feel like a convenience to him and that his behavior is *not* as committed to your relationship as you would like to see. 

I also suspect that you'd prefer not to acknowledge that, which is understandable, but may not be helping you keep a clear head about this topic. 

If he is not truly committed, marriage won't make him so. 
If he was acting in a deeply committed way, I wonder if you'd have a different response. Instead of thinking about those societal expectations, I imagine you'd think, "Who cares what society thinks? This is perfect!"

You also commented about "wasting time." When we talk about that, I believe that most people feel like they have wasted time if the end of a relationship doesn't leave them feeling enriched more than they experienced when the relationship started. What will you have gained from this relationship if it ends? Is there more to gain yet, or do you have all that you're going to get? If there's not much to strive for, you may wind up feeling that resentment and bitterness as you question again and again why he "rejects you" for marriage. Only you can decide whether you should cut your losses or hang in there. Do you think he's likely to change his mind over time? Why or why not? One clue to look at is the reason he married the first time, how long he was married, and how he values family. Yes, he was betrayed, but time can heal that, particularly when the betrayer is out of the picture and a new, more worthwhile person is there instead.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

KathyBatesel, can I just say that you are an absolutely gifted counselor? We are so lucky to have you on these boards!


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Thank you, JLD! Such a nice compliment!


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

So, Kathy, you don't think that OP's answer of yes to everyone of my questions was honesty enough. She should have answered "yes", but.

I agree. 

Men and women want the same things from relationships but in different proportions. Security is much bigger for women. But a man who has been cheated on no longer believes that marriage itself gives him security.

The vows in a church have z-e-r-o legal significance. Not a single element of tradition has been retained in the law. Divorce is no fault. 

LoveAdvice, would you kindly copy the standard civil ceremony vows in your state and post them them here, so that we can examine what you get. 

After you have sex is his favorite post coital activity World of Warcraft?

Is he happy when you have a good apetite?

Does he gaze at you fondly?

Are you afraid that the in love infatuation stage of your relationship will end and he will lose interest in you? If so, being married won't help.

It is is definitely true that for men marriage is a special commitment, we feel like it is the surrender of freedom. I don't know if a second marriage can ever feel like the first. After divorce some innocence that could be surrendered is not there anymore. You can't ask him for it because it was expended.

How does he feel about your profession?

Does he feel a lot responsibility towards his children? They come first now, don't they?

I am divorced and have two daughters, 18 and 16. They are with my ex on Cape Verde. They have been trying to learn how to surf. The sea food is good. I am celebrating Christmas as a dysfunctional divorced dad does. Played a few games of chess online. Over a late breakfast. A friend of mine died a few days ago. We met in the hospital. His brain worked well but his liver was failing. He got two years on two transplants. He got to see the birth of grandson. Now he is in the dirt. I am a couple FB friends richer.

What the heck is the meaning of all this? Everyone is winging it.

Sometimes the raw primal instinct is our best guide, sometimes not. What would happen if you went off BC, got pregnant and then told him:

"I wanted to have your baby. I didn't ask you. My selfish genes told me that the baby was asking to be born. I hope you stay, but if you don't, I'll understand and not hold it against you. You don't have to even acknowledge paternity."

This might sound preposterous but if you do it, you will not end up mildly happy or sad. Anyway, I hope you like the song.


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> So, Kathy, you don't think that OP's answer of yes to everyone of my questions was honesty enough. She should have answered "yes", but.
> 
> I agree.
> 
> ...


You made me laugh with your World of Warcraft question.  And, no to that question. He likes to spoon with me. 

Yes, he does look at me fondly, and it has been 3 years and we're still very much in love so that's not why I want to get married. 

I think he respects me and my profession and how hard I work.

He is very responsible to his kids, and he takes care of them very well. 

Thank you for your male viewpoints about marriage after divorce. I think that they are very valid and probably true in my bf's case. I think that innocence IS lost. It's lost for me too, and maybe that's my dream...to have another chance at recovering it and having a happily ever after...just like Cinderella. 

I think I would be foolish, however, to throw away a wonderful relationship because I want to get married. It's a want, not a need. I will always want it, and get sad about not getting it, but I cannot throw away the baby with the bathwater. He's a good man, and that's hard to find. It's also hard to find someone that is as compatible with me as he is. We just find enjoyment in being with each other. 

Merry Christmas, everyone!


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Write your own of vow to him. Maybe in the form of a poem. Tell him about your commitment, don't call it marriage. And make sure that what you say has no strings attached. Put that poetic vow into an envelope and think about it.


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

MrAvg said:


> What more in a relationship can one want or expect? You have everything going well for both of you, will a piece of paper improve that?
> 
> If he feels the same way and it seems he does why not wait till your kids have grown up then move in together and be happy. You seem to want to get married but I have not logical reason as to why. You are worth more financially, you are younger but unless I am missing something you have a lot more enjoyment with him than many people with a piece of paper. Why ruin a good thing?
> 
> ...


Hi, I think you're right from a logical perspective. I think women in general, or at least I am, want to be married for security and for emotional reasons. I want him to pronounce his commitment to me in a very serious way, and marriage is that typical way that such a commitment is recognized. 

I realize all along as you do that wanting marriage given my financial situation is not very logical, but I am fighting my emotional needs with my practical logical side.

I have to thank you and those who have expressed the same sentiments as you do in this thread for reminding me through your questions how fortunate I am to have the relationship that I have. 

A marriage would be icing on the cake, but I am happy with the cake. I'll take it! Thanks for helping me weigh the pros and cons about the bargain. I'm sold on what I have and I'll have to find a way to stop romanticizing marriage.

I'm seeing him tonight for dinner and a movie, and I love getting dressed and ready to go out with him. After 3 years, it's still exciting to see him, and I still have my alone time with my own kids when I don't see him so it seems while the relationship is not what I envisioned in fairy tales, and is not conventional, I have the best of both worlds. 

Happy Holidays!


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Here's my thoughts. First, my situation... I'm a 46 year old guy, separated for 3 years (not yet divorced). Been seeing a wonderful lady for most of those three years.

She's always said that she doesn't want to get married again. That a better option would be a "5 year renewable lease", as she felt being married encourages complacency in a relationship.

From my perspective, I'm not against marriage, but I'm not needing to get married, either. If it was important to my partner, I'd be open to it. But it's not high on my list of things to do. Getting married won't make me love her more, treat her differently, or make me more "committed" to her. 

To me, the logical "next step" in our relationship would be cohabitating. We don't need to be married to make that step. But it makes a significant difference in the relationship. Rather than going home to my own place most nights, it would mean being able to relax and fall asleep together. It means making plans for "our future", not just "my future". It means choosing what's for dinner, decorating the house, where I live are no longer just my decisions, but joint decisions. Well, maybe not the decorating, since she's a designer by trade... . But you get the idea!

For myself, I just don't see a compelling reason to get married again. Maybe if I was having children with my partner, but since that isn't an option...

However... My SO has dropped a couple of hints lately that she is open a more "formal" relationship. My thread on this is http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/145681-woman-speak-translation-please.html. I can see a "commitment ceremony" as an option in the not so distant future. A public declaration on our commitment to each other, and a good excuse for a party. . 

Anyway, maybe this will give you something to think about... 

C


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

PBear said:


> Here's my thoughts. First, my situation... I'm a 46 year old guy, separated for 3 years (not yet divorced). Been seeing a wonderful lady for most of those three years.
> 
> She's always said that she doesn't want to get married again. That a better option would be a "5 year renewable lease", as she felt being married encourages complacency in a relationship.
> 
> ...


Hi PBear, 

I read your entire thread.  I agree with your SO that marriage does encourage complacency. I think that's why keeping a marriage going is considered "hard work," at least that's what Ben Affleck thinks. When you live with that person and do all the mundane routine things with them, and see each other all the time, there is less incentive to "dress up" for dinner together, or be romantic and have date nights, especially if you have little kids. 

In fact, my aunt, who has been married for nearly 50 years, told me that my relationship as it is now IS the best part. She advised me that after marriage people tend to let themselves go and take each other for granted. 

I tend to agree with my aunt because I remember being married. Dating my ex-husband was fun and carefree, but after marriage and kids, we had romantic times less and less and the fighting and resentment started to build as the years went on. 

Dating my boyfriend now IS still fun and exciting after 3 years. We are still romantic and in love, and we argue very little. We have an extremely good time together almost all the time. 

I agree with you that living together and having a commitment ceremony with rings would be one good alternative. I think if he wore a ring and he gave me a ring, and we lived together, and perhaps bought a house together, and had the appropriate contracts in place to take care of the financial and medical aspect, my emotional side and my practical/logical side would be satisfied with that. In fact, it would be to my advantage not to get married and this would be my version of getting my cake and eating it too. Of course, I think if he asked me to marry him, I would still say yes.

In fact, if we had a commitment ceremony, exchanged rings, bought a house together, and lived together, I would be satisfied telling people that we're not married, but we're "committed" to each other, and that's our status.

Thank you for giving me the commitment ceremony, and exchange of rings idea. I love it.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Cohabitation and the mingling of children are real issues.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> Cohabitation and the mingling of children are real issues.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


Yes, I agree with you, and that's why I think waiting a couple more years at the very least before buying a house together is a good idea. His kids will all be adults at that time. My kids will be older, and start to want to do their own things with their own friends, and my SO and I would have been dating for 6 years or more at that time. If we last that long and are still in love, then I think it would be a good move. If it doesn't work out, we're not married, hahaha. We can work out the financial separation through contracts that would have already been set in place by me and his attorney, if he chooses to be represented by one. 

By the way, I know everyone says this about their own children, but my kids have never caused me any grief EVER at school. All their teachers, babysitters, etc., and anyone who has ever taken care of them for any length of time has always told me that they are very easy to take care of and are well-mannered and kind-hearted. My kids and my bf get along well.

The more I think about PBear's idea, the more I like it. The marriage concept does not work very well for our situation since we're not going to have any more kids and it doesn't make sense in our situation to allow the courts to dictate how we separate our financial assets if our relationship doesn't work out. We should be able to negotiate our own relationship contracts between ourselves. Pre-nuptial agreements are often not fool-proof. If we are not married, any contracts we have would not have the taint of family law influence on them, and would be construed as business law contracts. This I like.


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

What possible objections do you think my SO may have to the alternate arrangement that I described in my post immediately before this one?


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Did you find out what the wording of a civil ceremony says in your state? I suspect you will find it to be an empty shell.

Is your ex a good father?

It could be that your partner does not want to burden you with his family situation. He might feel it could strain your relationship.

re: Good kids versus trouble makers
Last year, my now 16-year-old went on an end of junior high school trip to a camp on the sea. Some of the kids brought an enormous amount of alcohol, as in bottles of vodka. They lacked experience and the situation spun out of control. One boy fell unconscious had to be medically evacuated. My daughter was asleep in the barracks. She is such a perfect kid.

There was a bottle of vodka hidden underneath one of the boats, but she did not squeal... wonder what the parents and teachers did with the confiscated liquor, which is very expensive in this country?

But how come she turned out so well? I mean, I am far from perfect. How did I produce such a kid? Doesn't make sense. Maybe I should get her DNA tested.

Elder sister, a great kid also, but more selfish, less aware, has POS tendencies. All my genes came out in her. D16 is more grown up than D18 in many ways. 

Sorry for the threadjack. I guess what I wanted to say is that it takes time become a judge of character; some of us never really know what is going on. But you, who makes a living inspecting intentions and assumptions, do you feel more or less confident in your discernment?

I suspect that one important part of your new relationship is that you feel you can relax with you boyfriend because your life experience with people and men tell you that he is trusty worthy. Don't second guess you gut.

Avoid trying to make up and define your relationship with § symbols, especially given that he has not disappointed you. Treat your relationship like something magical, because it is.

You might start by buying a vacation home togther. All you need as a contract (to my näive way of thinking) is a piece of paper saying that you are acquiring it together 50/50.


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> Did you find out what the wording of a civil ceremony says in your state? I suspect you will find it to be an empty shell.
> 
> Is your ex a good father?
> 
> ...


Hi Longwalk, 

Yes, he is a good father. You may be on target again with your analysis of the situation regarding his family situation.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Remember that to many people you are a successful woman lawyer. He may be proud of you because you have a good head on your shoulders, but he wants the soft and romantic side. To your boyfriend it is very important that you are not the adversarial alpha woman always trying to win in your relationship. Your trust him with your vulnerabilities and insecurities. As long as you are not a nagging or needy, the feminine side of you is something he accepts as his lucky find.

He may even feel protective of you. That is actually the emotion that may in time lead him to rethink the question of marriage. 

The last thing you need is papers that prove you love each other.

Does he wear any rings?

May it would be too bold to buy him a ring on you own and just put it on him, but you could buy him a watch.

Guys sometime like old automatic or even wind up Swiss watches. Go to watchmaker and see if has something that he has cleaned and guaranteed. If you don't see one you like, you could buy one on ebay, get it serviced and there you have a present, suggesting that your relationship is going to last.

Omega made the Moon watch and the 007 watch. Wearing these watchess boosts male sex ranking.


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> Remember that to many people you are a successful woman lawyer. He may be proud of you because you have a good head on your shoulders, but he wants the soft and romantic side. To your boyfriend it is very important that you are not the adversarial alpha woman always trying to win in your relationship. Your trust him with your vulnerabilities and insecurities. As long as you are not a nagging or needy, the feminine side of you is something he accepts as his lucky find.
> 
> He may even feel protective of you. That is actually the emotion that may in time lead him to rethink the question of marriage.
> 
> ...


Once again you've made me laugh. Wearing these watches boosts male sex ranking, lol? Should I NOT want him to boost his sex ranking? I don't want other women to get more attracted to him.

By the way, you've also said something I agree with again. While I an attorney, I'm very feminine and I actually like it when my SO takes charge and is more intelligent than I am. I don't try to be unintelligent, but I know that I'm not smart in all things. He complements me because he is smart in the areas where I am not. 

I know that I should not hope that my SO will change his mind about marriage and you and others on this forum have helped me to try to think of the positive and alternate solutions so that I can feel better about not being married. Thank you!!!!!!!


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

KathyBatesel said:


> Now that I have some time, I've read the replies and your additions to your original post, and I am honing in on the elephant in the room, so to speak.
> 
> Although you have repeatedly said that he's a good man, highly compatible, and that you love him, what you haven't said are the answers to questions about his attitudes and behavior.
> 
> ...


Hi KathyBatesel,

Let me give you the following facts, and maybe you can help me analyze whether he is acting in a very committed way or whether my own insecurities are the reason for my feeling that I need a serious commitment in the form of marriage or some other close alternative to feel secure. 

Facts:
1. He calls everyday or I do, and when I don't he always calls without fail.

2. He answers all my emails quickly.

3. He doesn't mind spending time with my kids, and plays games with them when he does.

4. He always shows up to our dates on time and never cancels them for any reason.

5. He invites me to all family functions.

6. His parents really like me and they treat my kids very well. They give them Christmas presents and spend time playing games with them.

7. He invites me to all get-togethers with his close friends and other friends. 

8. He never goes out to dinner with just the guys to bars or other nightlife activity. He is either at home, or with his kids, or at work, or with his parents or biking with his friends during the day for an hour or two, or with me. 

9. He is a good cook and we cook together a lot during our dates, and he helps me to clean up the dishes sometimes and takes out the trash voluntarily and brings in the trash voluntarily.

10. He loves to cuddle and massage each other while watching movies, and he is very affectionate and loving.

11. He says he loves me.

12. He doesn't talk about plans 2 or 3 years from now...ever...unless I ask him, and he'll say he doesn't plan that far ahead, and he says that he envisions 2 or 3 years from now that he'll be doing something somewhere with me but he doesn't say anything specific. It could include living together or in general just building our lives together. I think is where I am insecure. 

13. I feel that our relationship has slowly yet progressively been moving closer and closer emotionally through the years. Each month that passes, we are feeling more comfortable with each other and love each other more. 

What do you think?


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

How he reacts to the idea of a formal commitment depends a lot on why he doesn't want to get married. All you can do is float the idea and see where it goes. 

You also need to determine how "common law" marriages are handled in your jurisdiction, and just make sure both of your butts are covered. But all that can be handled, I think. I did find an interesting website about "committed but not married" relationships, and how even things like renting cars together can be an issue.

In my case, my kids live with my STBXW, and I see them every weekend. My SO doesn't have kids. So we'd be living a pretty relaxed life, I think (hope?). I'm looking forward to our future!

C


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

PBear said:


> How he reacts to the idea of a formal commitment depends a lot on why he doesn't want to get married. All you can do is float the idea and see where it goes.
> 
> You also need to determine how "common law" marriages are handled in your jurisdiction, and just make sure both of your butts are covered. But all that can be handled, I think. I did find an interesting website about "committed but not married" relationships, and how even things like renting cars together can be an issue.
> 
> ...


There are no common law marriages in my state. What's the website? I would be interested in reading the articles on there.

He said that he doesn't believe that a contract is necessary and I think he fears the financial aspect because he had to give up half of everything he owned to his ex and will be paying spousal support for a lifetime. There could be a chance that he could be making more than I am in a few years with his business. Maybe he just doesn't love me enough??? That's my fear.

I think if I float the idea of the alternate commitment ceremony, etc., and he doesn't want to do that, I may leave him.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

I think the site was Standing up for fairness and equal treatment of all people regardless of marital status since 1998. — Unmarried Equality —. Good luck!

C


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

PBear said:


> I think the site was Standing up for fairness and equal treatment of all people regardless of marital status since 1998. — Unmarried Equality —. Good luck!
> 
> C


Thanks!


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

loveadvice said:


> Hi KathyBatesel,
> 
> Let me give you the following facts, and maybe you can help me analyze whether he is acting in a very committed way or whether my own insecurities are the reason for my feeling that I need a serious commitment in the form of marriage or some other close alternative to feel secure.
> 
> ...


After reading that, how can you consider:



> I think if I float the idea of the alternate commitment ceremony, etc., and he doesn't want to do that, I may leave him.


I wouldn't bother pushing for the alt commit delete buttons. Once you push them everything will be erased. This is your happiness and you want to start over with someone new?

Eventually he will likely ask to marry just wait. It may take 10 years but he will.

The watch that ups his sex ranking or other ways that you fuss about him to make him look good up your sex ranking by implication.

One terrible mistake you may be making... suppose you tell him that you're leaving him. He may then beg to marry you. What are you going to do then? Accept and be happy? It will be ruined in someway.

You are essentially setting up a relationship test when Kathy already asked questoins that showed a 100% passing rate.


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## Omego (Apr 17, 2013)

loveadvice said:


> There are no common law marriages in my state. What's the website? I would be interested in reading the articles on there.
> 
> He said that he doesn't believe that a contract is necessary and I think he fears the financial aspect because he had to give up half of everything he owned to his ex and will be paying spousal support for a lifetime. There could be a chance that he could be making more than I am in a few years with his business. Maybe he just doesn't love me enough??? That's my fear.
> 
> I think if I float the idea of the alternate commitment ceremony, etc., and he doesn't want to do that, I may leave him.


I agree with Long Walk that the alternate commitment ceremony is not a good idea. Based on what I infer from your posts, for you that would be a second best solution. I don;t think anyone should settle for second best.

The list of things he does sounds good. The part about where he sees himself in 2 or 3 years is a bit unsettling as you said, 

It seems like you have a lot to offer and that you are dissatisfied with the situation. You may have to pull back a bit from the relationship in order to see what he is ready to do in terms of committment.

You could also say that you love him and feel happy when with him but that you feel that without marriage something is missing? 

The potential problem of financial entanglements could be solved with a pre-nuptial agreement no?


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## Gomerpyle (Dec 27, 2013)

loveadvice said:


> I'm seeing him tonight for dinner and a movie


OK so this is someone you are dating, I assume exclusively. There's a lot of ground between this and marriage that represents more commitment so it seems to me the problem isn't really about wanting to get "married" per se, but that you would like to step it up to at least living with him. 

But he's just fine with dating. What you'll find is that people respect you less when you sell yourself short like this and you end up being the one who was dumped, cheated on, or otherwise slighted. It isn't a good working assumption that he will always be there for you because that's the whole point of making commitments. He won't do that, so the better assumption is you are a stand by until he sees better.


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

Omego said:


> I agree with Long Walk that the alternate commitment ceremony is not a good idea. Based on what I infer from your posts, for you that would be a second best solution. I don;t think anyone should settle for second best.
> 
> The list of things he does sounds good. The part about where he sees himself in 2 or 3 years is a bit unsettling as you said,
> 
> ...


Actually, before I thought about the alternate solution, I was thinking inside the box, and I thought that was either marriage or no marriage. 

I think the alternate solution is the better solution for me from a financial perspective. I would happy with him with the alternate solution.

Pre-nups are not fool proof. Not getting married is. Also, there are many legal and financial and tax consequences to getting married. It is much easier and cleaner to contract one's way around these issues if one is not married.

I'm not sure that LongWalk meant that the alternate solution is not a good idea. Perhaps he merely thinks that I should not dump him if he doesn't go along with the alternate solution.


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

Gomerpyle said:


> OK so this is someone you are dating, I assume exclusively. There's a lot of ground between this and marriage that represents more commitment so it seems to me the problem isn't really about wanting to get "married" per se, but that you would like to step it up to at least living with him.
> 
> But he's just fine with dating. What you'll find is that people respect you less when you sell yourself short like this and you end up being the one who was dumped, cheated on, or otherwise slighted. It isn't a good working assumption that he will always be there for you because that's the whole point of making commitments. He won't do that, so the better assumption is you are a stand by until he sees better.



No, I'm not really happy with just living with him without the alternate solution. 

He's not just fine dating. He wants to build a life together that eventually involves living together but not marriage. 

I never assumed that he will always be there for me, even if we were married. Divorces happen all the time.

"Selling myself short" in this situation is actually better than "not selling myself short" and being married to the wrong person who doesn't treat me nearly as well as my current SO does. I think there is a lot more gray here than not married = selling oneself short automatically. I've read a lot of posts on this forum and there seems to be a lot of unhappy marriages. That being said, I agree that I struggle myself with not thinking in the black/white and thinking about alternate solutions which would make both emotional and practical sense.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

So what does the commitment ceremony do for you that the "living together" doesn't?

C


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

PBear said:


> So what does the commitment ceremony do for you that the "living together" doesn't?
> 
> C


He wears a ring and I do as well, and we have a ceremony in front of our friends and family to pronounce our commitment. 

When one gets married, one needs to get a divorce to leave. There are also many, many legal and tax consequences to being married. 

I just want the commitment and not necessarily the financial entanglements. The alternate solution is the ideal solution for my situation.


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> After reading that, how can you consider:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree that having me beg him to marry him after I leave him would tarnish the marriage. He would feel like he lost and was pushed into marriage. I never wanted to do that and that's why even though I know that if I give him an ultimatum, he may propose, I didn't do it. I'm staying with him because I love him and that's what I told him. 

If he doesn't want to consider the alternate solution, however, then I feel that I'm going to give up on a relationship where he can't or won't compromise with me. I've already given up marriage. If he won't consider exchanging rings, buying a house together, and having a little ceremony to celebrate our commitment, I think I will fall out of love for him.

You know what?? I was thinking back to a conversation my SO and I had a while ago, and I just remembered that he did say that building a life together meant eventually buying a place together.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

loveadvice said:


> He wears a ring and I do as well, and we have a ceremony in front of our friends and family to pronounce our commitment.
> 
> When one gets married, one needs to get a divorce to leave. There are also many, many legal and tax consequences to being married.
> 
> I just want the commitment and not necessarily the financial entanglements. The alternate solution is the ideal solution for my situation.


I agree with your reasons for the ceremony. I'd put a ring on right now, without the ceremony, just to mark that I'm "taken", to be honest. And the ceremony itself... I see as a nice quiet thing with just close family and friends. We both did the big church ceremonies the first time around. 

But recognize that the ceremony does nothing to change your relationship and make it stronger without both people being fully committed. Then again, the same thing can be said about a marriage ceremony... If he's not committed, the formality of a ceremony isn't going to change anything.

I do wish you well with this... That the two of you can get on the same page and continue your happy life together. And contrary to some of the other posts, I do think you can throw out the idea of a commitment ceremony without trying to "force" him into it with an ultimatum. The same as you can discuss marriage without there being an ultimatum.

C


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

PBear said:


> I agree with your reasons for the ceremony. I'd put a ring on right now, without the ceremony, just to mark that I'm "taken", to be honest. And the ceremony itself... I see as a nice quiet thing with just close family and friends. We both did the big church ceremonies the first time around.
> 
> But recognize that the ceremony does nothing to change your relationship and make it stronger without both people being fully committed. Then again, the same thing can be said about a marriage ceremony... If he's not committed, the formality of a ceremony isn't going to change anything.
> 
> ...


Thank you, PBear. I wish you well as well with your SO.

I think that marriage just makes it harder for people to leave when things are not working out and much more costly for people to leave. People become complacent in marriage, as your SO pointed out, and I agree with that. If two people are happy and committed, a piece of paper is not going to change the odds of that person leaving. People divorce all the time after making the marriage commitment. The alternate solution is actually much more comforting to me than marriage the more I think about it. 

I'm not going to force the alternate solution on him. As I see it, if it will happen, it will be a natural progression of events.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

I had never really thought about it until someone mentioned it it the other thread I linked here. But for now, my SO has indicated that she'd like to "be engaged" with me, which in itself is a formal commitment. The commitment ceremony is a "next step" beyond that. I haven't talked to her yet about the commitment ceremony yet; so as far as she's concerned, an "indefinite engagement" is her next "happy place". I'm good either way. 

C


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

LoveAdvice,

We can only see your boyfriend through this prism of your values. What you report is positive. The case for sticking by him is convincing, according to you. The deal killer is your desire for a higher level of security.

With regards to the alternate commitment ceremony, IMO it is an inferior version of marriage. Why bother with it? Won't it make marriage less likely?

I suggest that you cherish your desire for marriage and keep it carefully hidden away from harsh conditions. Do you garden? Gardners always debate whether to start seeds indoors under controlled temperature to transplant outdoors when the time is right. Sometimes a beautiful plant does not survive the move outdoors. You forget to water one day and it wilts, never to recover. A snail eats it. There is no guarantee.

All that work for nothing. Then you say, "I'll just plant directly in the earth, even though all this time is lost." Maybe the sun and rain will be perfect and the plant wil be so vigorous, you take it for granted that every year it should be so. But will it? Isn't your relationship going well? What's the rush?

Treat your life as an art. If you do water color the paint flows in the water in a way that you can never control completely. 

Your boyfriend may be considering asking you to marry him. Somewhere in his mind a debate is going on because he wants to make you happy. If you have cake in the oven, don't open it over and over to check on its progress. Let him awake from a dream about you and suddenly know that he wants to marry you.

By not mentioning it you increase the chances of it happening naturally.

By the way, what if you do the ceremony or get married and he says he wants to get you with child?

PM Turnera for advice. She is a woman and very expert in reading men.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

> You know what?? I was thinking back to a conversation my SO and I had a while ago, and I just remembered that he did say that building a life together meant eventually* buying a place together*.


That is marriage sooner or later.


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## Omego (Apr 17, 2013)

loveadvice said:


> If he won't consider exchanging rings, buying a house together, and having a little ceremony to celebrate our commitment, I think I will fall out of love for him..


This makes perfect sense to me. It does sound as though his agreeing to the committment ceremony will satisfy you.


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> LoveAdvice,
> 
> We can only see your boyfriend through this prism of your values. What you report is positive. The case for sticking by him is convincing, according to you. The deal killer is your desire for a higher level of security.
> 
> ...


Thanks, LongWalk. Your words resonate with me because I can see how my bf would see things the way you do.

My SO has in fact mentioned that we should keep talking about the issues because "he wants me to be happy." 

However, I don't think marriage is the best solution for me anymore. It makes more sense to do the alternate solution.

I don't have to wait for years to find out whether he will marry me. With the alternate solution, I get to find out soon and I am hedging all risks associated with divorce and I have all the public display of commitment that I need from him.

Btw, he's fixed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

PBear said:


> I had never really thought about it until someone mentioned it it the other thread I linked here. But for now, my SO has indicated that she'd like to "be engaged" with me, which in itself is a formal commitment. The commitment ceremony is a "next step" beyond that. I haven't talked to her yet about the commitment ceremony yet; so as far as she's concerned, an "indefinite engagement" is her next "happy place". I'm good either way.
> 
> C


That's great, PBear! I'm glad that you're on the same page as your SO. I wonder if it would be a good idea to have "commitment" rings instead of engagement rings. With engagement rings, it seems that after a few years, you always get those questions about when you're going to get married. But, you're not engaged to be married. You're engaged to be committed to each other. In my own situation, if I were to exchange rings with my SO, I would use the term "commitment" rings and tell people that we're committed to each other in lieu of engaged to each other. 

I think the idea of rings is a good idea because people will most likely assume that you're married when they see the rings, and the rings themselves will probably reduce the number of about whether you are married.


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> That is marriage sooner or later.


LongWalk,

While I think the alternate solution is a better solution for me, I am a romantic at heart and I wish I could believe as you believe that buying a house will result in a marriage sooner or later and I think from your comments you are somewhat of a romantic as well. I just feel so disenchanted with reading about so many failing marriages on this forum and from other sources.

It doesn't seem that marriage as an institution is a safe risk anymore for security purposes. In fact, I now view it as a liability. I wish more than anything to be in a great marriage that will stand the test of time. I just don't think it's in the cards for me, especially with my SO's current stance. 

Your comments are very uplifting in nature though. Thank you!


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

What do you think about the advice given in the following link?

Ask a Guy: My Boyfriend Doesn’t Want To Live Together


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

That article is more for women in middle to late 20s. Your BF knows his own mind better. Three years is already long enough to have passed the infatuation stage. To him his affection for you is more significant than marriage itself.

By the way did you have a period during which either or both of you were madly in love? Is that what is missing?

You BF may have promised himself never to marry again, but he will change his mind if you stay together. From your description he is not a flighty guy in the least. For him the values that he feels important are more or less the values expected in marriage. He has delivered the content that you long after. What is missing is the packaging and warranty.

Some of the best deals in life have no warrranty.

re: the warranty
You still haven't looked up the civil vows for your state. I'd be interested to hear your interpretation of them because I guess that they are empty and are merely a switch that funnels a couple into a zone where marriage is merely what you make of it, until one party starts to back out, at which point what is defined is divorce, rather than marriage.

Both you and your BF think about the consequences of divorce because you've both been through it.

2) What the enhance warranty provides:

You still believe that the benefits of marriage are qualitative, but how so?

1) Do you think he will become even more considerate of you after marriage?
2) Will he make love better?
3) Are you going to get rid of friends of his you don't like?
4) Do you wish to make him save more of his income and invest to increase your wealth?
5) Do you want to adopt a child?
6) Schedule a reverse vasectomy?
7) Write a will making each other beneficiaries, cutting out your children?
8) Get a family membership at gym?
9) It could be that the wedding itself is important. The average US wedding costs $50,000. Do you want to experience a grand event?
10) Are you seeking a strengthened bond, as in he will have a harder time getting out of your relationship? 

Men are pretty simple. Sex and food are enough to keep many of them around. They fear being smothered but as a relationship becomes stable they adapt to being a subject of the couple relationship. The exceptions would be immature guys who have to drink beer with buddies and watch football, rather than spend time with their wives and children. The other exception would be those who are extremely career driven.

If a grounded guy respects his partner and feels that their SO is great, he will not leave. If you badger him into a formal agreement he may go along with it to keep the peace, hundreds of millions have:

1) He will lose some of his autonomy and self respect.
and/or
2) He will be pained inside and lose some of his respect and love for you because you couldn't accept your relationship as the most important one that you had in your lives, excepting your parent-child relationships. 
3) He won't notice much. He'll just say. Well, I did it again. She seems way better that ex. 

Random notes from real life:

1) The best friend of a first cousin of mine is a professor at an Eastern school famed for its medical research. He is a very smart guy. A good athlete. I think his father was a professor of philosophy or divinity or something like that. Very nice, very serious Christian people. I don't the so was religious but he was nerdy and not alpha assertive. I don't think he got laid easily.

Eventually after had his PhD in biostats nailed down and had entered the academic food chain, he dated a very good looking politically correct academic woman. I only met her a couple to times.

One condition she had for marriage was that the guy had to quit his beloved sport: sky diving. He used to do jump in huge formations and was very accomplished. He ended it.

She also cut him off from my cousin (his best buddy). My cousin is a adjunct professor of medicine at an Ivy League university. What is objectionable about my cousin is that he is irreverent and he influenced his buddy to hold similar opinions. Best buddies also encourage each other to stand up to their wives.

"No you can't quite skydiving. You love it."

Wives and girlfriends quickly size up friends as positive or negative in terms of their power over their husband.

My cousin refused to commit to his LTR girlfriend from med school (a psychologist). She wanted to marry him but he was too naracissistic. I thought she was super nice so did his family. But she was Jewish and he was afraid of being part of a neurotic Jewish family. He married a Wasp doctor. He ate her pizza shortly after they were married and she threw it in his face and divorced him. I don't think he was even married a year.

Finally he married another doctor, quite a bit younger than him. She never practiced medicine and only eats broccoli. My cousin, who expected other people to do all the cooking, had to become the family cook. I don't know his wife well at all but she is dysfunctional in some way. So, a guy who was very alpha and afraid of being dominated by a family oriented culture ended up in situation without freedom in any event.

Really both my cousin and his best friend were profoundly changed by marriage. I don't know if they consider themselves happy since we usually meet at family reunions and you don't talk about such stuff when people are walking around with paper plates of food.

Anyway, if you go through the marriages that you really have some insight into because you have known the people for decades, you will see changes good and bad, compromises and adjustments.

I agree that simply ending a LTR is easier. Marriage really changes the power balance. Sometimes a married person has to moderate their POS tendencies to preserve peace; sometime one must truncate possitive qualities because there is not enough ego space under one roof. That is more scary for men because we imagine that we have cool personalities (i.e., we are irresponsible) while women are more socially conformist (i.e., are more modest).

When reading TAM it is clear that divorce and affairs wake people up to the failures as individuals and relationships. 

Neither you nor your SO seem like people with issues. Marriage is less important for you because your relationship so good.

I like Pride and Prejudice. Read it several times. Marriage is a great institution.

Remember if you buy a vacation home together and you meet new people, they will call you Mr. and Mrs. Your SO will have to correct people or let if pass and that will always remind him that he can skip the trouble if you marry.

For that matter always introduce him as "my boyfriend, my guy, my man." Don't call him my partner, that is only a modern PC term for common-law-husband/wife. Eventually he will just prefer to be first class (which is husband) and it will be first class because you consider it a promotion.

I wrote a lot here. You should start paying me by the word.


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> That article is more for women in middle to late 20s. Your BF knows his own mind better. Three years is already long enough to have passed the infatuation stage. To him his affection for you is more significant than marriage itself.
> 
> By the way did you have a period during which either or both of you were madly in love? Is that what is missing?
> 
> ...


Thank goodness for you, LongWalk. You have been my solace in my unrest. 

I have leave to see my SO now and have been sobbing on and off for an hour. 

I would like to think logically. Maybe it's the wine, lol. I feel miffed that he doesn't want to marry me. To say to me, I don't want to marry you is tantamount to, I don't love you enough.

I want to be logical and I'm struggling. At times, I'm strong. Sometimes, I am weak. 

I will read your post in more detail later after I see him tonight. Thank you for helping me.

By the way, Pride and Prejudice is one of my favorite books. It always has been since I was maybe ten years old. I want the fairytale.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

In the same way that you are struggling to be logical and rational, your bf struggles to believe in the fairy tale. It is no easier for him to overcome betrayal and the financial repercussions of divorce to now believe in the marriage fairy tale again than it is for you to see marriage solely from a rational perspective. 

He's been very clear about how his divorce has affected him. To him, not wanting to marry isn't about loving or not loving you enough. Don't project that onto him as though that's some kind of fact. Try to see that he has a different perspective of marriage than fairy tales.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

No offense, but if you're flip-flopping that quickly on your needs, I think you need to spend more time and maybe some counseling to figure things out before you make any moves. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gomerpyle (Dec 27, 2013)

They don't call booze "smart juice" for nuthin'.


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## Omego (Apr 17, 2013)

PBear said:


> No offense, but if you're flip-flopping that quickly on your needs, I think you need to spend more time and maybe some counseling to figure things out before you make any moves.
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree: We keep coming back to the original idea of marriage. You said the alternative solution would work for you, but maybe you are trying to talk yourself into believing that.....


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

norajane said:


> In the same way that you are struggling to be logical and rational, your bf struggles to believe in the fairy tale. It is no easier for him to overcome betrayal and the financial repercussions of divorce to now believe in the marriage fairy tale again than it is for you to see marriage solely from a rational perspective.
> 
> He's been very clear about how his divorce has affected him. To him, not wanting to marry isn't about loving or not loving you enough. Don't project that onto him as though that's some kind of fact. Try to see that he has a different perspective of marriage than fairy tales.


Good advice. He has told me many times that he loves me and I am feeling unloved when thoughts of his refusal to marry me come to my head.

As I have said before, I have occasional moments of sadness. I guess it was exacerbated by wine last night. 

I almost didn't want to see him last night, especially since I thought I looked horrible from crying, and I almost called him to say that I can't tolerate our opposing views on marriage. I was going to apologize to him and say that I tried to be okay but I can't. 

And then, I thought about all the comments on this forum that have been made so far and I realized that I needed more time to think and that I shouldn't act rashly. 

He didn't notice my puffy eyes. As usual, he cooked an amazing dinner for me. I told him about these new muscles that I've been seeing on my arms due to my new workout and the new strength in my body that I felt from my running and I think I turned him on even more than usual. We had our usual wonderful time together and ended up having even more amazing than usual sex. 

He also seems to be more loving and caring after I told him about a month ago that I won't leave him even though he won't marry me because I love him. Maybe it's just a case of me being illogical and being unable to overcome my childish need to get what I want, which is marriage, even if marriage is of no benefit to me and is actually a financial liability.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

loveadvice said:


> He also seems to be more loving and caring after I told him about a month ago that I won't leave him even though he won't marry me because I love him. Maybe it's just a case of me being illogical and being unable to overcome my childish need to get what I want, which is marriage, even if marriage is of no benefit to me and is actually a financial liability.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Of course he is, he got what he wanted, the hot lawyer GF, who comes over when he wants, has sex with him, all without having to get married again. He knows that you're not going anywhere, that you're willing to GIVE UP what you want, in order to keep HIM happy. Funny thing is, I don't see how anyone is concerned with keeping you happy. Your BF is the one driving this bus, you're just along for the ride. You're waffling because deep down inside, you feel the loss of what YOU want, that you're pushing aside that want in order to keep the status quo. 

Your bottom line is this, you want to be married, end of story. Whether you're absolutely 100% ready to verbally admit what your heart already knows is all up to you. Your BF has told you he doesn't want to get married again. Your choices are only 2, leave to find the man who does want to marry you or stay and accept, without bitterness, that while he says he loves you, he will not marry you. 

That's it, those are your choices. The commitment ceremony is not marriage, no matter how much you may try to convince yourself. Playing house is not marriage, even buying a house is not marriage. If what you need to be truly content in your relationship is marriage, then hold out for what you want. Life is short, don't settle. Your BF maybe a great guy, but there are lots of great guys out there who will want to marry you.


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

Phenix70 said:


> Of course he is, he got what he wanted, the hot lawyer GF, who comes over when he wants, has sex with him, all without having to get married again. He knows that you're not going anywhere, that you're willing to GIVE UP what you want, in order to keep HIM happy. Funny thing is, I don't see how anyone is concerned with keeping you happy. Your BF is the one driving this bus, you're just along for the ride. You're waffling because deep down inside, you feel the loss of what YOU want, that you're pushing aside that want in order to keep the status quo.
> 
> Your bottom line is this, you want to be married, end of story. Whether you're absolutely 100% ready to verbally admit what your heart already knows is all up to you. Your BF has told you he doesn't want to get married again. Your choices are only 2, leave to find the man who does want to marry you or stay and accept, without bitterness, that while he says he loves you, he will not marry you.
> 
> That's it, those are your choices. The commitment ceremony is not marriage, no matter how much you may try to convince yourself. Playing house is not marriage, even buying a house is not marriage. If what you need to be truly content in your relationship is marriage, then hold out for what you want. Life is short, don't settle. Your BF maybe a great guy, but there are lots of great guys out there who will want to marry you.


Hi Phenix70,

Thanks for your comments. 

Is it me or does it seem like the majority of men on this forum are saying "I have a good relationship and marriage is not necessary and be happy with what I have with my SO," 

AND

the majority of women on this forum have the opposite view and think that "I should leave my SO because I won't be able to bear not being married or I should stay with my SO if I can stand being slighted by him because he won't marry me and that staying with him means that I am valuing myself less"???

I'll tell you what my own father thinks of this situation.

My father is a very traditional man and I'm his only daughter. He loves me and is very protective of me and always tries to take good care of me even now that I am an adult and am fully able to take care of myself. I have a very good relationship with my father. He and my mother found each other in college and they have a wonderful relationship full of trust and happiness. They are one strong unit together and care for each other deeply. He is also a very intelligent man. He graduated from Harvard. 

What he thinks about my situation may surprise you. He thinks that there is nothing wrong with dating my SO for the rest of my life without marriage. He thinks there is no benefit to getting married to my SO and only liability. He thinks that I'm not getting a bad bargain by staying with him, as I've told him that my SO and I have a good relationship overall if we ignore the issue of marriage. We get along extremely well and it's the best relationship I've ever had in my life. 

If my father, who I admire and who loves me very much, agrees with the majority of the men on this forum, I have to think that perhaps my position may be flawed. People hold onto ideals that may not be correct or apt to their situation and it's hard to let go and think another way if one has held onto the same beliefs most of one's life. I am a rational human being. If what I am thinking is not the best train of thought, I need to do my best to revise my thinking no matter how hard it is to do so and despite occasional setbacks.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

loveadvice said:


> Hi KathyBatesel,
> 
> Let me give you the following facts, and maybe you can help me analyze whether he is acting in a very committed way or whether my own insecurities are the reason for my feeling that I need a serious commitment in the form of marriage or some other close alternative to feel secure.
> 
> ...


You also said 



> To say to me, I don't want to marry you is tantamount to, I don't love you enough.


I think his behavior is committed and his words show a lack of commitment. I also believe that when mixed messages are present, the wisest course is to believe what you'd rather not. In this case, that would be that he will not change his mind. 

I suppose if I was in your shoes, the next thing I'd be considering is how he normally makes his important decisions. If he's someone who thinks a great deal before choosing a tie to wear, then there's a greater chance of him changing his mind after a long period than if he's the kind of guy who operates on gut instinct. If he's a decisive, doesn't think twice kind of person, the chances of being left out-on-the-curb when your relationship hits those inevitable snags are much greater.

I find myself wondering how he would react if you proposed the idea of a common-law marriage in a non-common law state? In other words, if you told him, "I respect that you don't want to marry, and I struggle with this because for me, marriage is a big indication of how much a couple loves each other, and even though it's illogical, I can't get rid of that belief. So I have a proposal.... and it's not for marriage, exactly. What would you think about us one day wearing rings and considering ourselves married without going through the formalities that would create legal and financial ties we may not want?" (A word of caution: If he agrees and the laws later change, it could create financial obligations anyway. Although you're an attorney and understand the laws & whether they'd be likely to change better than I do, I did write an overview of what exactly IS considered common law marriage, how it differs from cohabitation, and how it affects separations if you're interested in checking it out: http://hubpages.com/hub/Common-Law-Marriages-and-Divorce .)


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

The problem that you're facing is that you're asking advice about a situation that no one else's opinion truly matters, even your father's, as no one else is living your life.
I suggest you stop asking for advice & instead turn your questions inward, as only you can decide for you what you really want.
Time to stop trying to find your answer from someone else & take ownership of your own needs. 
You will hear a million different answers to marriage, but the only answer you need to hear is your own. 

What does LoveAdvice want? Close your eyes & think of how you want your life to be. Meditate on your choices, write down your thoughts, refer back to those thoughts to see if you have found any clarity in the ensuing days. Your decision does not have to be made right now, but it will eventually. 

Most importantly, make the decision for yourself, not because you think you have to make others happy by your choice, including your BF and your father.


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> That article is more for women in middle to late 20s. Your BF knows his own mind better. Three years is already long enough to have passed the infatuation stage. To him his affection for you is more significant than marriage itself.
> 
> By the way did you have a period during which either or both of you were madly in love? Is that what is missing?
> 
> ...


Civil ceremony: http://www.captadam.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/captadamceremonies.pdf. It's pretty much what I expected to be said. 

The legal ramifications as dictated by state and federal laws are what is not in the vows and are the real issues for many men who are adverse to marriage. 


1) Do you think he will become even more considerate of you after marriage? No
2) Will he make love better? No
3) Are you going to get rid of friends of his you don't like? No, I like his friends and they all seem to like me.
4) Do you wish to make him save more of his income and invest to increase your wealth? I would like to accumulate wealth together and invest into our lives together. 
5) Do you want to adopt a child? No
6) Schedule a reverse vasectomy? No
7) Write a will making each other beneficiaries, cutting out your children? No, we will probably give most of our pre-marriage assets to our own children, I suppose. He has a mild-moderate autistic teenager. I suppose he needs to figure out how to take care of him if the teenager turns out not to be able to support himself very well.
8) Get a family membership at gym? No
9) It could be that the wedding itself is important. The average US wedding costs $50,000. Do you want to experience a grand event? No, I don't need a big wedding. I can't even imagine getting into a white dress and having the same hoopla as I did when I was getting married the first time. 
10) Are you seeking a strengthened bond, as in he will have a harder time getting out of your relationship? Maybe. I've often read that there is a completely different feeling when you are married vs. just living together. Of course, I knew the first 2 weeks after I married my ex-husband that I married the wrong man. Had I lived with him first, I would never have married him.


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

KathyBatesel said:


> You also said
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You said "I think his behavior is committed and his words show a lack of commitment." Very true! I think that's what's confusing me. 

His actions shows that he's an ideal boyfriend in terms of commitment. I am happy with his actions. I feel that we are in a very stable, loving and committed relationship. Isn't that what everyone wants? 

The fact that I'm idealizing marriage is something that I can't seem to shake.

How does he make his decisions? How does he choose his tie/clothes? He DOES think a great deal before he chooses something that he thinks is costly. He doesn't need to think a great deal about buying something from a place that he knows is the best deal he can get at the lowest cost. 

He broke up with me suddenly at around 9 months into our relationship after I met his parents. His parents loved me and showed it during our first meeting. A few days after my meeting his parents, he abruptly broke up with me.

I accepted the break up and never contacted him and started dating others. I was almost over him when he contacted me 6 weeks later and told me that he realized that he missed me and he realized the depth of his feelings for me. 

Since then, he has always referred to the break up as him being an idiot and then having to beg for me back. He tells me that he is a lucky man to have me and it shows in his actions how committed he is to me. 

Whether to throw away a relationship that is as good and strong as ours because I want to get married is the issue that I am wrestling with and can't seem to find final peace in. 

I think if I break up with him, I will then have occasional moments of sadness not about not being married but about losing him. 

I think that I would be even sadder being without him than in being with him and not being married.

Maybe it is unwise to think that one can always get everything one wants in a relationship and that's it's a wise choice to pick the few must haves and then be happy with what one has. 

I live in a no common marriage state. I like the alternate solution as suggested by PBear. Your suggestion seems similar to it.

*I don't want to make what could turn out to be the biggest mistake of my life.* That's why I am debating the issues with myself for so long.


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

Phenix70 said:


> The problem that you're facing is that you're asking advice about a situation that no one else's opinion truly matters, even your father's, as no one else is living your life.
> I suggest you stop asking for advice & instead turn your questions inward, as only you can decide for you what you really want.
> Time to stop trying to find your answer from someone else & take ownership of your own needs.
> You will hear a million different answers to marriage, but the only answer you need to hear is your own.
> ...


While I don't always listen to what my father suggests, I do value his opinion highly because I know he has my best interests at heart and he knows me best.

If I can stand it, I think I'm going to not talk about the issue of marriage with him for another 6 months in order to give myself time to evaluate my feelings about the issue of marriage.

I think the reason he's acting more loving toward me after I told him that I won't leave him even if doesn't want to marry me is because he feels that I may leave him in spite of what I've said and he wants to show me that he loves me so that I'm less inclined to leave him. I think he sees me backing away from him and sometimes the sadness that is there in my eyes, and I think he knows in his heart that I'm still debating whether I should leave him.


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

loveadvice said:


> The fact that I'm idealizing marriage is something that I can't seem to shake.
> 
> That's very insightful to your true feelings.
> 
> ...


Yep, I can see that. I think all of our relationships are a gamble, depending on what you're willing to risk is where the issues come into play since nothing is guaranteed.


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

Phenix70 said:


> *Of course he is, he got what he wanted, the hot lawyer GF, who comes over when he wants, has sex with him, all without having to get married again. He knows that you're not going anywhere, that you're willing to GIVE UP what you want, in order to keep HIM happy. Funny thing is, I don't see how anyone is concerned with keeping you happy*. Your BF is the one driving this bus, you're just along for the ride. You're waffling because deep down inside, you feel the loss of what YOU want, that you're pushing aside that want in order to keep the status quo.
> 
> Your bottom line is this, you want to be married, end of story. Whether you're absolutely 100% ready to verbally admit what your heart already knows is all up to you. Your BF has told you he doesn't want to get married again. Your choices are only 2, leave to find the man who does want to marry you or stay and accept, without bitterness, that while he says he loves you, he will not marry you.
> 
> That's it, those are your choices. The commitment ceremony is not marriage, no matter how much you may try to convince yourself. Playing house is not marriage, even buying a house is not marriage. If what you need to be truly content in your relationship is marriage, then hold out for what you want. Life is short, don't settle. Your BF maybe a great guy, but there are lots of great guys out there who will want to marry you.


Phenix70,

I've given some thought to what you said, and not to be offensive, but I want to question some of your thoughts about the situation.

You said: "Of course he is, he got what he wanted, the hot lawyer GF, who comes over when he wants, has sex with him, all without having to get married again." But, aren't I getting the same thing from him? And, you have to remember that I'm the one that's younger and better off financially than he is? He is a very handsome man, and I get him to come over whenever I want and I get to have amazing sex with him, and I don't have to marry him.

It seems that it is also assumed that the man gets the better deal by not marrying the woman. 

You also said: "He knows that you're not going anywhere, that you're willing to GIVE UP what you want, in order to keep HIM happy. Funny thing is, I don't see how anyone is concerned with keeping you happy." But, he is keeping me happy in all other ways other than proposing marriage. As I've said before, he is a wonderful man and it's the best relationship I've ever been in. And, I also know HE'S not going anywhere. We have a very, very passionate, and compatible relationship. He's very unlikely to ever leave me if we remain this happy. Also, I AM giving up marriage to keep him happy, but by asking him to propose to me, aren't I asking him to give up what he wants to propose to me? We can't have it both ways. We have to compromise and sometimes, only one person can win. But, I'm a winner in the way he treats me in all other ways. I think that's why he has become even more loving and even more committed to me in his actions. He wants to compensate for not giving me what I want in terms of marriage.


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

Phenix70 said:


> Yep, I can see that. I think all of our relationships are a gamble, depending on what you're willing to risk is where the issues come into play since nothing is guaranteed.


He broke up with me at 9 months because he wasn't sure about the depth of feelings for me. He said that he's a romantic and his parents have a passionate wonderful relationship and he wants the same. He said he's not looking for a short-term relationship. He wants what his parents have: a loving, passionate committed long-term relationship. He didn't want to waste 3 or 4 years with me and have it end if he didn't have the depth of feelings for me that he thinks he should have.

After 6 weeks, he said that he couldn't stop missing me and thinking about me. I had not contacted him at all during those 6 weeks and went on with my life. He said that he went out on a date with some other woman during that time, and he said that all he could think of was me during the entire date. He also said that all other women seem to pale in comparison to me. He then said that he realized that he had very strong feelings for me. He said that he felt like he was not worthy of me and that was also why he left me.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

You have a girlfriend, acquaintance, somebody who knows you, who knows something about your SO, based on your positive evaluation of him. You have upped his sex ranking by being with him for three years. He has gained your stamp of approval. You break up because the lack of marriage. He is very sad and you are very sad.

After year and half you discover he has started dating one of those women. And after a few months they marry. What will you think then? Would you feel betrayed? Would you wonder why he would marry her and not you? Maybe exW1 was one lesson and exSO was another lesson. Maybe your breaking up with him will cause him to be more vulnerable and ready to tie the knot.

I am not saying this will happen, but it is one scenario.

The human capacity to fall in love is limited by time if nothing else. I think that the heart also has a limit. A couple cannot have 16 children and love them all as individuals. Just buttering the bread takes time. Neither you nor your SO are really eager to hunt another person to replace the one you have now.

Your SO, from the way you describe him, is a pretty steady fellow. If he is planning to buy a house with you, then he is hoping that you will be his partner down the home stretch.

I think that you just need to enjoy what you have now. The chances of marriage are good. 

This couple never married. Here's their song.

Thanks for posting vows link. The words were interesting. Does your state have an official set vows when the ceremony is performed by a public official?


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

loveadvice said:


> Phenix70,
> 
> I've given some thought to what you said, and not to be offensive, but I want to question some of your thoughts about the situation.
> 
> ...


Nothing offensive at all, very good questions! I will do my best to answer them, keep in mind that I'm a 43 yo woman, who has been very independent most of my life. 

No, I don't think you're getting the same thing as him, because as you pointed out, you're the younger one, with the higher income, who willingly has sex with him whenever he wants, WITHOUT having to marry you. What's not to like about that as a man? Seems like he's got everything he wants. 

I think the true test of whether or not someone is truly committed to a relationship is when the time comes that they are willing to 100% be selfless. Their concern is now focused on making their SO's life better for the benefit of them both. That for them it's about making the relationship itself the priority, that the individual's wants are superseded by the wants of the relationship. Both of you obviously want the relationship, but you want to each define it in different ways. Do you believe in your heart of hearts, that staying with your BF without marriage, will be in the best interest of your relationship as a whole? If you can answer "yes" without hesitation, then you have your answer.


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

Phenix70 said:


> Nothing offensive at all, very good questions! I will do my best to answer them, keep in mind that I'm a 43 yo woman, who has been very independent most of my life.
> 
> *No, I don't think you're getting the same thing as him, because as you pointed out, you're the younger one, with the higher income, who willingly has sex with him whenever he wants, WITHOUT having to marry you. What's not to like about that as a man? Seems like he's got everything he wants.*
> 
> I think the true test of whether or not someone is truly committed to a relationship is when the time comes that they are willing to 100% be selfless. Their concern is now focused on making their SO's life better for the benefit of them both. That for them it's about making the relationship itself the priority, that the individual's wants are superseded by the wants of the relationship. Both of you obviously want the relationship, but you want to each define it in different ways. Do you believe in your heart of hearts, that staying with your BF without marriage, will be in the best interest of your relationship as a whole? If you can answer "yes" without hesitation, then you have your answer.


But, I am also getting the same thing without having to marry him. He would be the one to most benefit financially by marrying me so he is showing his selflessness in not wanting my money and wanting to only be with me. 

What's also not to not like, from my perspective, from getting sex, and companionship from him without having to risk my assets in a marriage? It's only my irrational idealization of marriage that is causing me to want marriage. If I think only logically, I should not want it.


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> You have a girlfriend, acquaintance, somebody who knows you, who knows something about your SO, based on your positive evaluation of him. You have upped his sex ranking by being with him for three years. He has gained your stamp of approval. You break up because the lack of marriage. He is very sad and you are very sad.
> 
> After year and half you discover he has started dating one of those women. And after a few months they marry. What will you think then? Would you feel betrayed? Would you wonder why he would marry her and not you? Maybe exW1 was one lesson and exSO was another lesson. *Maybe your breaking up with him will cause him to be more vulnerable and ready to tie the knot*.
> 
> ...


LongWalk, you just articulated my worst fear. You said: "Maybe your breaking up with him will cause him to be more vulnerable and ready to tie the knot." That would kill me more than my current status quo with him, and I hear that possibility happening frequently.

Don't know about the official set vows. I think just a judge or pre-approval official needs to say do you and do you and by the laws of the state of ___, you are married. 

You said: "I think that you just need to enjoy what you have now. The chances of marriage are good." Thanks, LongWalk. I would like to believe that.


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

loveadvice said:


> But, I am also getting the same thing without having to marry him. He would be the one to most benefit financially by marrying me so he is showing his selflessness in not wanting my money and wanting to only be with me.
> 
> What's also not to not like, from my perspective, from getting sex, and companionship from him without having to risk my assets in a marriage? It's only my irrational idealization of marriage that is causing me to want marriage. If I think only logically, I should not want it.


Do some reading about men & their sex lives, very eye opening. Especially when it comes to having sex, with the hottest women they can get, with the least amount of effort. It is very interesting to see the relationship dynamic from the POV of men who want exactly what you're giving your BF. It will also show why he is the one who is getting the greater benefit than you are. Make sure to read up regarding the age of women vs men in relationships.

Here is a good place to start.
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18181-man-up-nice-guy-reference.html


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

loveadvice said:


> But, I am also getting the same thing without having to marry him. He would be the one to most benefit financially by marrying me so he is showing his selflessness in not wanting my money and wanting to only be with me.
> 
> What's also not to not like, from my perspective, from getting sex, and companionship from him without having to risk my assets in a marriage? It's only my irrational idealization of marriage that is causing me to want marriage. If I think only logically, I should not want it.


The difference is that you want to marry him. Your view is that marriage is THE ultimate commitment, and anything short of that is not enough to truly satisfy you inside. Thus, he has what he wants (everything without marriage) and you do not (everything AND marriage).

Think about what you NEED instead.


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

norajane said:


> The difference is that you want to marry him. Your view is that marriage is THE ultimate commitment, and anything short of that is not enough to truly satisfy you inside. Thus, he has what he wants (everything without marriage) and you do not (everything AND marriage).
> 
> Think about what you NEED instead.


I see what you are saying but I am benefitting more by not getting married so what I want is not to my benefit financially. Perhaps I am not wise to want what I want, which is marriage.


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

loveadvice said:


> I see what you are saying but I am benefitting more by not getting married so what I want is not to my benefit financially. Perhaps I am not wise to want what I want, which is marriage.


I think you're putting too much emphasis on finances, because even though you make more, it's not like he's a poor college student struggling to get by. You two are closer in line than you're giving yourself credit for, you're in the same socio-economic background, albeit with you the higher earner.

Please go read through the link I provided, it will give you some very helpful insight to men and where their emphasis is placed on sex, relationships and marriage.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

loveadvice said:


> I see what you are saying but I am benefitting more by not getting married so what I want is not to my benefit financially. Perhaps I am not wise to want what I want, which is marriage.


But you still want it, wise or not, rational or not. So unless you can make peace with it, you will always feel like something isn't quite right.

I'm in my mid-40's, long term relationship, not married. I can claim all kinds of financial and real estate reasons why it makes more sense for us not to marry, but the truth is, we could work out those practical issues in time. But, we both know ourselves and we do better this way. Maybe one day we will change our minds, but in the meantime, we are comfortable and happy, both of us. Neither of us is wishing we were married while talking ourselves into accepting less than what we need.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

> He has been married before and doesn't want to do it again although he keeps on saying that he doesn't want me to be unhappy either so let's keep on discussing the issue.


It doesn't sound as though he's completely closed off to the idea of marriage, either, because he at least wants to keep on discussing it...

How would you both feel about compromising by getting engaged? That way you might feel that there's more of a formal commitment from him?


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

In the casino of life, the odds that marriage does not end in divorce are maybe 50/50. Some will argue that the stats are better, especially if you exclude poorly educated young people whose marriages have dismal prospects.

But let us suppose that 70 percent of marriages do not end in divorce. Of those how many are happy? Indifferent? Miserable?

And as consumer society is ever more demanding, we expect far more from Apple, IKEA and Toyota products in terms of reliability we expected form the products of yesteryear. There is pressure for marriage to perform. Indeed, even TAM is modern phenomenon. TAM is all about demanding performance. So the pressure is great.

Loveadvice,

What does your SO say about his first marriage. Does he talk about it? Was he in a complete state of shock when Dday arrived? Did he discover his ex's digression by chance? Gut feeling?

Since he broke up with you once do you feel that the danger of it happening again is greater or smaller?


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

norajane said:


> But you still want it, wise or not, rational or not. So unless you can make peace with it, you will always feel like something isn't quite right.
> 
> I'm in my mid-40's, long term relationship, not married. I can claim all kinds of financial and real estate reasons why it makes more sense for us not to marry, but the truth is, we could work out those practical issues in time. But, we both know ourselves and we do better this way. Maybe one day we will change our minds, but in the meantime, we are comfortable and happy, both of us. Neither of us is wishing we were married while talking ourselves into accepting less than what we need.


I'm not sure if it's really a need or a want. 

Why do you not want to get married?


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

Cosmos said:


> It doesn't sound as though he's completely closed off to the idea of marriage, either, because he at least wants to keep on discussing it...
> 
> How would you both feel about compromising by getting engaged? That way you might feel that there's more of a formal commitment from him?


Those are good points. I wonder what he really meant. I told him that I couldn't leave him because I love him and he told me while holding my hand and looking into my eyes that he knows that but he doesn't want me to be unhappy either so let's keep on talking about it.


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> In the casino of life, the odds that marriage does not end in divorce are maybe 50/50. Some will argue that the stats are better, especially if you exclude poorly educated young people whose marriages have dismal prospects.
> 
> But let us suppose that 70 percent of marriages do not end in divorce. Of those how many are happy? Indifferent? Miserable?
> 
> ...


I am actually glad that he broke up with me and had time to digest his feelings for me. I think it made his resolve to stay with me stronger because he remembers how much he missed me when we were broken up.

My SO said that he didn't love his ex-wife. He said that he married her for all the wrong reasons: age, children, abortions, etc. His marriage was terrible for a long time and he was not surprised when he found out from one of his ex-wife's friends that his ex-wife was cheating on him. He was actually happy on the day he signed the divorce papers and was already ready to date other women.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

loveadvice said:


> I'm not sure if it's really a need or a want.
> 
> Why do you not want to get married?


For similar, but different, childhood reasons, we associate the concept of marriage with smothering, combined with a loss of autonomy. Marriage makes choices feel less voluntary than compulsory. I'd rather choose to be with him on a daily basis than have days where I feel forced to be with him because we are married.


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

norajane said:


> For similar, but different, childhood reasons, we associate the concept of marriage with smothering, combined with a loss of autonomy. Marriage makes choices feel less voluntary than compulsory. I'd rather choose to be with him on a daily basis than have days where I feel forced to be with him because we are married.


Do you live together or have children together?


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## Moovers (Dec 24, 2013)

loveadvice said:


> I'm in a 3 year relationship with a man, and overall, I think that it's the best LTR I've ever had.
> 
> We hardly ever argue, and we have a loving, trusting, and highly compatible relationship. Both of us have been married before and we both have two kids, although mine are much younger than his, and he has an adult child and an mild-moderate autistic child who is able to cook, dress himself, and is articulate, but has the social mental ability of approximately an 8 or 9 year old. We each own our own homes, and live separately. We don't live far from each other, and we have been happy being able to spend alone time with our own children and then alone time with each other when our children are with our exes.
> 
> ...


Marriage is overrated, you already have one failed marriage, doesn't that kill the romance of the idea of marriage? 

If you will end up getting married GET a prenup, everything you own before the marriage stays yours. Everything earned together, well you have to take that risk, that if things go wrong he can take something that is not really his.

It is just the paper work, live in reality not in a fantasy, I think it is very romantic that two divorced people can find love again and be happy. The idea about happiness is wrong, happiness just is, I used to do that too - thinking, if only I was married, if only I have white picket fence, if only I was 10 lbs lighter. Just be happy and grateful for what you have.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

loveadvice said:


> Do you live together or have children together?


No, neither of us have kids - never wanted them. We don't live together, exactly. We each own our own homes, and share time at each home and keep stuff in each home. We think of it as having a house in the city for when we want restaurants and bars and concerts, and a house in the suburbs for when we want pool and bbq's and a driveway to wash the cars. 

We have a couple of decades behind us, so it works for us.


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

norajane said:


> No, neither of us have kids - never wanted them. We don't live together, exactly. We each own our own homes, and share time at each home and keep stuff in each home. We think of it as having a house in the city for when we want restaurants and bars and concerts, and a house in the suburbs for when we want pool and bbq's and a driveway to wash the cars.
> 
> We have a couple of decades behind us, so it works for us.


Do people ask you if you two are married and why are you two not married?

Congratulations on two decades together!!! :smthumbup:


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

Moovers said:


> Marriage is overrated, you already have one failed marriage, doesn't that kill the romance of the idea of marriage?
> 
> If you will end up getting married GET a prenup, everything you own before the marriage stays yours. Everything earned together, well you have to take that risk, that if things go wrong he can take something that is not really his.
> 
> It is just the paper work, live in reality not in a fantasy, I think it is very romantic that two divorced people can find love again and be happy. The idea about happiness is wrong, happiness just is, I used to do that too - thinking, if only I was married, if only I have white picket fence, if only I was 10 lbs lighter. Just be happy and grateful for what you have.


Thanks for your reminder about being grateful!


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## Thebes (Apr 10, 2013)

If I were wanting marriage and he didn't I don't think I could truly be happy with him. It doesn't sound like you are either and I doubt you ever will be.


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

Just a thought...getting ready to see him again. Romantic dinner out and a movie.

I'm not sure living together without marriage is a good idea either. I don't want to do act like his wife but not get the title. It's a lot of housework, lol!!! 

Either he marries me, or we keep on living separately in our own homes. 

I have a very good relationship with him. We'll probably have a great night tonight together as well. What more could I want?  By the way, I am drinking some wine tonight.  

And, I'm not feeling sad tonight so maybe I'm maybe making good progress with being happy with what I have with him.

[/I][/I][/I]


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

loveadvice said:


> Just a thought...getting ready to see him again. Romantic dinner out and a movie.
> 
> I'm not sure living together without marriage is a good idea either. I don't want to do act like his wife but not get the title. It's a lot of housework, lol!!!
> 
> ...


Personally, I couldn't do the long term relationship while living apart for an extended period... Not my cup of tea.

C


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

Well, here's an update on the situation for those who have helped me on this forum. 

My SO and I went to see a movie last night. There was a marriage proposal scene in the movie, and as usual, I started to feel sad and upset inside when I saw that scene. We still had a good time at the movie because it was a great movie. 

This morning, I told my bf that I love him, and that we have a great relationship. I told him that I've been trying really hard to rationalize why it's okay to not get married, but I don't think that I'm going to be able to handle not being married. I suggested to him that maybe I'm just Ms. Right Now, and that he should find someone who he's really excited about marrying. I told him that maybe I'm not the right one. 

He said that he's not keeping his options open and that he loves me. He said that this is not a short-term relationship for him. He said that he's not losing me and I'm not going to leave him. I just stared at him when he said that. 

He continued on and said that we should start planning for our marriage.


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

That's great news! I hope that things do work out just the way you want them to. 

While I can understand his hesitation due to his previous marriage, he should not hold that against you as an excuse because you are NOT his ex-wife. We all carry baggage from our previous relationships, but when you hold onto past hurts, it does nothing but prolong your pain. He would do well to seek out therapy to help him move on. 

Wishing you the best and good for you for making yourself heard in your relationship.


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## Boricha (Sep 29, 2013)

Loveadvice,

You are a smart woman. You followed your instinct. Why be second best when you can be number one? With marriage not only is love fully cemented, you have additional rights as a wife and he as a husband that even this secular world acknowledges. 

The ultimate test a man can give a woman of his love is asking her for marriage.

Good luck to both of you!


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

I told you he was going to propose. Admittedly I didn't think it would be in 2013.

Congratulations.


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

Boricha said:


> Loveadvice,
> 
> You are a smart woman. You followed your instinct. Why be second best when you can be number one? With marriage not only is love fully cemented, you have additional rights as a wife and he as a husband that even this secular world acknowledges.
> 
> ...


Thank you!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> I told you he was going to propose. Admittedly I didn't think it would be in 2013.
> 
> Congratulations.


LongWalk, he didn't propose. He said that we should start planning for our marriage so he's now agreeable to go down that path with me. I feel much better now and more trusting of him and his feelings for me. 

Frankly, I'm not in a hurry to get married. I just wanted to know that we are heading down the path toward marriage. We could get engaged next year and stay engaged for a few years and wait until the kids are older to move in together and get married. I think we have a lot of thinking and preparation to do before we get married because it will be a blended family. 

Any advice about blended family situations?? 

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

In his mind he proposed to you; that is the way a guy thinks. The ring and bended knee or whatever are just following through.

What he was really going to do is out of the bag. He has surrendered to what he believes is happiness. He has done what he swore he would not do. He feels a little goofy, a little relieved, hopeful, romantic.

Note that in Pride and Prejudice there were postscripts about how the marriages worked out.

My daughter has spent many hours reading Pride and Prejudice fan fiction. Guys do not go there.


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> In his mind he proposed to you; that is the way a guy thinks. The ring and bended knee or whatever are just following through.
> 
> What he was really going to do is out of the bag. He has surrendered to what he believes is happiness. He has done what he swore he would not do. He feels a little goofy, a little relieved, hopeful, romantic.
> 
> ...


Pride and Prejudice was my first favorite novel. 

What is it about that story that captures the heart of so many women/ girls?

Never once would Darcy ever say "Hey, I love you but I wouldn't want to marry you."

Maybe romance novels such as these are why I cannot stop wanting marriage. 

Thanks for your insight about how he feels about "surrendering" to marriage. To hear your viewpoint about how he may be feeling is nice. Happy New Year!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

He is feeling warm and fuzzy. Maybe he is saying that he broke his promise to himself.

Given that he is such a thoughtful guy, I don't think you will have the switch and bait problem. He will continue to be the responsible guy and you will be the wife who likes sex.

Remember Darcy surrendered against his will and better judgment. 



> I might as well enquire,'' replied she, "why, with so evident a design of offending and insulting me, you chose to tell me that you liked me against your will, against your reason, and even against your character? Was not this some excuse for incivility, if I was uncivil? But I have other provocations. You know I have. Had not my own feelings decided against you...


Happy New Year to you, too!


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

Hi All,

Here's an update on the situation. My SO is as wonderful as usual and our relationship is stronger than ever. 

The problem is that he hasn't mentioned anything about marriage since the last time we spoke about it which was maybe a little more than a week ago. When we last talked about marriage, he said "Let's start planning for our marriage NEXT WEEK." 

Am I being too impatient? Maybe I took his words too literally? Should I allow a few months to pass before I worry that he just pacifying me with words about marriage but not really intending to move forward with marriage? I was thinking about not mentioning the topic of marriage for 6 months and seeing whether he will move forward with an engagement, etc. voluntarily during that time. 

I'm not in a hurry to get married. In fact, not getting married until 2 or 3 years later or even more is okay with me. I would prefer to get engaged within a year though. The issue is that when someone says that we will start planning for our marriage starting next week, it seems odd to me that marriage is not spoken about. When it's not spoken about as he said it would be, all kinds of scenarios start to pop into my head about whether or not he really intends to get married. 

BTW, he does seems to be acting more and more with each passing day like a family member to me in the way we act toward one another and include each other's kids in our activities.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Give him a chance to be romantic and figure out how he wants to propose to you. 

Stop with the second guessing or you'll ruin the enjoyment and meaning in this.


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## loveadvice (Dec 22, 2013)

norajane said:


> Give him a chance to be romantic and figure out how he wants to propose to you.
> 
> Stop with the second guessing or you'll ruin the enjoyment and meaning in this.


You're probably right.


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