# Expanding Horizons with LD wife



## Frustrated_Hubby (Mar 22, 2018)

A little back story. I am 48, she is 51. Menopause has set in but nothing more than the hot flashes. We have sex 1x a week. I want more. She says the right things but nothing changes.

I seem to be able to get her to be a little more adventurous lately. She has bought some new and different sexy clothes for me. She has tried different postitions. For the longest time it was missionary only. We have done doggy since. I really want oral both give and receive. Haven't gotten since marriage 22 years ago. How can I get a BJ and go down on her without nagging?


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Frustrated_Hubby said:


> How can I get a BJ and go down on her without nagging?


For the BJ you can hire a prostitute.
For going down on your current wife - I got nothing legal. Legal choice is to divorce her and then go down on the next wife. Hint: at your stage of life, prostitutes are cheaper.
Or you can give up this fantasy and realize that your wife is menopausal and you are still getting some PIV sex and thank your lucky stars that she hasn't closed the store permanently.

Any post along the lines of "what can I say or do to get my spouse to do something they do not want to do" is misguided. The answer is always the same. make yourself so wonderful and so desirable that they would do anything you ask just to keep you around. If you can't think of anything you can do to make yourself so desirable in the eyes of your spouse, then there probably isn't any such thing. Certainly, nothing that a total stranger would know to tell you to try.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Frustrated_Hubby said:


> We have sex 1x a week. I want more.


 @Frustrated_Hubby if your wife has a frequency that allows her to be intimate with you once a week you need to realize that pushing her for more would be equally as difficult as pushing you for less.

Points being frequency and difficult. You can not change someone's frequency, but you can make things less difficult. One way would be asking for a one-sided experience and be extremely easy to please. Perhaps she will enjoy that and respond well to doing something a little adventurous for you real quick here and there if she enjoys making you happy. 

Let her know that you are more than willing to reciprocate, but let her be the one to ask you when she wants to try something for herself. The most important aspect of someone's sexuality is allowing them to enjoy anticipating and wanting something. If you give it to them before they even know that they might want to try it, that kind of ruins it. Especially for those with a lower frequency of desire. 

The only exception being is during the heat of the moment. Once your spouse is very aroused, then sometimes the horizons of what they are willing to try may expand. So if you want to try and suggest something different during the heat of the moment, as long as you can be smooth about it you might stand a better chance at introducing something a little different. However if in the heat of the moment you get all awkward and fall off the edge of the bed while moving into a different position with a cramp in your leg, it is not going to work out that well. 

Cheers, 
Badsanta


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## BigDigg (Jan 11, 2018)

Frustrated_Hubby said:


> How can I get a BJ and go down on her without nagging?


BJ's and oral a great subtle communicator to you on the state of her attraction towards you. If she gave them enthusiastically when you started dating and has no other hangups / issues then look at them as a key barometer in your marriage. Not to over simplify but as a general statement she'll give them when 1) she is truly attracted to you and generally happy with you 2) she has reasonable fear that you could find them elsewhere if you so desired. Also pay attention to the dance on this - if she only gives them when you ask or beg (tip - never do that) that's not a great sign but maybe means she can at least stand you. If she gives them without asking, at random times/places, and without expectation of reciprocation - congrats man - your wife is head over heals for you. You must be doing something right.

So...you're not getting them now. What does that tell you? Need to focus on being attractive and being a man worthy in her mind of getting them. How to do that means you'll need to understand your wife better and make real effort over a long period to rebuild that attraction. Sorry...no magic pixie dust on this. Nagging, continuously requesting, or demanding might get you a pity suck once or twice but that will do great harm to her opinion of you and willingness to ever do that in the future. Don't be that guy. Be the kind of guy that she wants you to be.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

BigDigg said:


> BJ's and oral a great subtle communicator to you on the state of her attraction towards you. If she gave them enthusiastically when you started dating and has no other hangups / issues then look at them as a key barometer in your marriage. Not to over simplify but as a general statement she'll give them when 1) she is truly attracted to you and generally happy with you 2) she has reasonable fear that you could find them elsewhere if you so desired. Also pay attention to the dance on this - if she only gives them when you ask or beg (tip - never do that) that's not a great sign but maybe means she can at least stand you. If she gives them without asking, at random times/places, and without expectation of reciprocation - congrats man - your wife is head over heals for you. You must be doing something right.
> 
> So...you're not getting them now. What does that tell you? Need to focus on being attractive and being a man worthy in her mind of getting them. How to do that means you'll need to understand your wife better and make real effort over a long period to rebuild that attraction. Sorry...no magic pixie dust on this. Nagging, continuously requesting, or demanding might get you a pity suck once or twice but that will do great harm to her opinion of you and willingness to ever do that in the future. Don't be that guy. Be the kind of guy that she wants you to be.


Perhaps you missed his first post when he said the last time he got them was right when they got married. So either she immediately lost attraction to him on the honeymoon or it isn't this simple.

OP, I'd caution trying to get sex acts from your wife by making her afraid you'll cheat. It's bad character, period.

Signed,

An extremely HD wife of a husband with integrity


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Holdingontoit said:


> For the BJ you can hire a prostitute.


:laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

It's that darn wedding cake that killed her adventurous spirit...shouldn't have eaten it. But seriously though, the odds of getting her to change after all that time are pretty darn low. You can read married man's sex life primer for hints, but other than that, you'd have to swap her out for someone that you're more sexually compatible with to see any noticeable change.


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## BigDigg (Jan 11, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> Perhaps you missed his first post when he said the last time he got them was right when they got married. So either she immediately lost attraction to him on the honeymoon or it isn't this simple.
> 
> OP, I'd caution trying to get sex acts from your wife by making her afraid you'll cheat. It's bad character, period.
> 
> ...


Hey PoI - just to be abundantly clear - I was never ever advocating that he try and make his wife fearful in pursuit of this. I agree that's a terrible thing to do and ultimately will backfire in so many ways. That's letting kids fish with dynamite. But the fact that he did stop receiving them right when he got married is maybe a bit of (sad) proof that sometimes women will offer that solely to keep a pliable man down. Or if in a happy marriage as a bit of positive mate-guarding (see hubby - no need to go looking anywhere, i've got what you want right here). Just explaining (as a man) how things seem to work.

I read his other post on another thread - it's absolutely clear that she's not attracted to him and the dynamic there is completely sour. BJ's for the guy are the cherry on the top of a great mutually satisfying marriage sundae. He's chasing a the end-game without putting in the hard work needed here. These threads all seem to mush together but it's (IMO) usually the same exact problem.


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## zookeeper (Oct 2, 2012)

OP:

Greed is you enemy here. Your wife seems to be making a genuine effort, so don't screw it up by pressuring her to do things she is not ready for. I'd forget the cunnilingus entirely. That demand makes no sense to me. It's primarily for her pleasure, right? If she doesn't want it, why persist? Definitely not the hill to die on.

I'd suggest that you work with her, not against her. Try increasing the frequency of the sex you have now to twice a week. That is likely a much more attainable goal than a BJ.


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## Frustrated_Hubby (Mar 22, 2018)

Thanks for all the great responses. I would never tell her or make her feel that if I don't get something then I am leaving. But it also makes sense that this is not the "hill to die on" I have read MMSL, and no more Mr Nice Guy. Kinda got tired of doing all the heavy lifting so to speak.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Holdingontoit said:


> For the BJ you can hire a prostitute.
> For going down on your current wife - I got nothing legal. Legal choice is to divorce her and then go down on the next wife. Hint: at your stage of life, prostitutes are cheaper.
> Or you can give up this fantasy and realize that your wife is menopausal and you are still getting some PIV sex and thank your lucky stars that she hasn't closed the store permanently.
> 
> Any post along the lines of "what can I say or do to get my spouse to do something they do not want to do" is misguided. The answer is always the same. make yourself so wonderful and so desirable that they would do anything you ask just to keep you around. If you can't think of anything you can do to make yourself so desirable in the eyes of your spouse, then there probably isn't any such thing. Certainly, nothing that a total stranger would know to tell you to try.


Just terrible advise. :frown2:


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Frustrated_Hubby said:


> A little back story. I am 48, she is 51. Menopause has set in but nothing more than the hot flashes. We have sex 1x a week. I want more. She says the right things but nothing changes.
> 
> I seem to be able to get her to be a little more adventurous lately. She has bought some new and different sexy clothes for me. She has tried different postitions. For the longest time it was missionary only. We have done doggy since. I really want oral both give and receive. Haven't gotten since marriage 22 years ago. How can I get a BJ and go down on her without nagging?


Tell her that the thing you desire most in life at the moment is a blowjob (from her). You understand that, since she stopped doing it when you were married, it must not be her favorite thing but, if she could find a way to do it for you again some day, you'd be the happiest guy on the planet. Ask her if there's anything you could do to make it easier for her.

The idea isn't to beg and plead, the idea is to make sure she's clear how much you desire this. If you are certain that she knows how much this means to you and she still won't do it, that's worth knowing.

An offer to give if you get probably isn't going to get you anywhere, since she probably wants neither.

Edit: Were any of those pre-marriage blowjobs from her?


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

OP, the only advice I can give you is to have this talk with your wife. I disagree that people do not change. You can present your wants, needs and desires to your wife. She can either accept them, reject them or ignore them. But, you had better prepare yourself to accept what her answer is. Everything else in your life might make it acceptable to you that she says no or ignores them. In which case you may just have to live with it. Or, you might decide that life is too short to do without and move on. Either way, the only thing you own any other human being is honesty.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Frustrated_Hubby said:


> I really want oral both give and receive. Haven't gotten since marriage 22 years ago. How can I get a BJ and go down on her without nagging?


I do know how to guarantee that you WON'T be doing those things and that is by nagging. 


I have read your other posts in the other threads as well as this one. 

I'm a little older than you but my 23rd anniversary is next weekend and my has also recently turned 51 and is post menopausal, so we do have that in common. 

Menopause and middle age and grown children are kind of all wild cards in female sexuality. All three of those things can have pretty big impacts on a woman's sexuality and while some of those things may turn a timid, demure wife and mother into a cougar on the prowl with one woman, they can also turn a porn star into a frigid librarian. 

For some women, once the kids are grown and they are no longer at risk of pregnancy and they reach a point in middle age where they don't really care what the neighbors think or what the church ladies will say, it can open up their sexualities and they throw their inhibitions and worries to the wind. 

In my swinging days, I saw countless middle aged women that were the poster-children for sweet dutiful wives and mothers and church choir singers that became sex demons in the open environment of the swinging lifestyle and had sex lives that would send porn stars running for their mommies. 

And conversely, there are many menopausal, middle aged women who have raised the kids, fixed the meals, folded everyone's underwear and kept their husband's tank drained enough to keep them at home until the kids were old enough and now couldn't care less if they ever have sex again and would much prefer to no longer have anything to do with it. 

Continued in next post......


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Cont...…

In your particular case, it sounds as if she is at least trying to be somewhat accommodating and is expanding on her very restrictive OK-to-do list at least somewhat. 

That is kind of a good sign. 

It doesn't sound to me as if she is closing the door to sex at all and maybe even ok with cracking it open a wee bit more. But the challenge is that door has never been very open and she has had a looooooooooong list of 'no-no's' for decades. 

She's not going to turn into a sex-crazed cougar over night no matter what you do. But I do think you have some wiggle room here. 

If you have read NMMNG and MMSL, then I think for starters you need to reread them and put those principles into daily nuts and bolts practices. 

If you are out of shape, start hitting the gym like it's the cure for cancer and lost puppies. Start paying attention to detail in grooming and styling. Update your wardrobe, including the clothes you wear around the house. 

And start owning your sexuality as a man and starting pursuing that which you desire. 

Now pay close attention here because the devil is in the details. By pursuing, I mean DOING and I do not mean ASKING and I swear to the Holy God Himself I absolutely do NOT mean NAGGING, begging or threatening!!! 

Cont in next post......


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

In reading your posts I get the impression you have been rejected and stiff-armed a lot in the past. That can make one tentative and timid and feel like they must secure "permission" before doing anything. 

I get it. I've been in that seat myself from back when the kids were little and time and energy and patience etc was of extremely short supply and innate desire on her part was basically nonexistent. 

But things have changed and life is different now. Now you are both full grown adults and can pursue whatever it is you want as long as it is not illegal, immoral or fattening. You don't need to play Mother-May-I as a grown @$$ man. 

My suggestion is keep your mouth shut and stop talking about it and stop asking and for God's sake never nag, beg, plead or negotiate. If you want to do something, just start doing it. ---then keep doing it until she either tells you to stop or squirms away. 

It's all in the seduction and warm up here. 

I'll use going down on her as an example. She hasn't had oral sex performed on her in over 20 years (that you know of). If you ask her if you can go down on her, that is going to put her on the spot and make her feel self-conscious and insecure and she is going to worry about odors and tastes and wild hairs and about 10,000 other things and she is going to feel obligated to say no. 

There for asking for pre-permission is a guaranteed fail. 

What to try instead is during foreplay to touch and kiss and nibble and lick etc all over and while doing that, start making your way south. (or start at her toes and slowly make your way north, I don't care which) 

My guess is somewhere south of her belly button or north of her knees, she is going to tense up and start squirming away or even outright tell you not to do there. 

If that happens, don't make an issue of it. Don't whine and get pi$$y. Don't get all butthurt. Just stop and linger at the point right before she put on the brakes and then move back up to where you were getting the green light and then just move on to other things. 

Then the next time you are getting it on, do your best to pleasure and stimulate an inch further than the time before and linger in the area a little longer. 

Then so on and so forth. Don't discuss it. Don't get all butthurt if she puts on the brakes. 

In time, you'll either get there and get'r done. Or she is going to draw a hard line in the sand and tell you that you that she never wants you to go down on her in which case you have your answer there. 

This "MIGHT" work. Maybe it will and maybe it won't. But it is worth the try and it won't cause harm if it doesn't. 

But I guarantee you that asking and nagging and pleading will most certainly NOT work and there is no magic phrase or magical words that you can say that will open her legs and let you feast. 

Either you work your way into through pleasure and stimulation and arousal - or you won't. 

The same is true for any other sexual activity such as oral, anal, fetishes, kinks whatever. 

You do it by doing it and not by asking for it. 

You get what you want with a prostitute through discussion and negotiation and laying your money on the table. With a wife/GF, you do it by making it pleasurable and arousing enough that they want to do it. 

And if they simply do not get pleasure and arousal from it and don't want to do it, then your options are living within those limitations or finding someone who does dig it.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> I do know how to guarantee that you WON'T be doing those things and that is by nagging.
> 
> 
> I have read your other posts in the other threads as well as this one.
> ...


I AM a church lady and I enjoy sex with my husband very much.:smile2: Not swinging though, that and Christianity don't mix. Faithfulness is what we believe in. Have no idea how those women you describe go to church and yet completely disobey God by committing adultery. I guess that going to church doesn't mean anything unless you practice your faith.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> oldshirt said:
> 
> 
> > I do know how to guarantee that you WON'T be doing those things and that is by nagging.
> ...


Some of the worst people in terms of character and morals I have known to throughout my life have been avid church goers. 

Case in point in extreme scale: priests and the sexual abuse of children.


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## BigToe (Jun 2, 2011)

Oh lord, some of the responses...too funny. Ok, let me tell you something...as she ages, as she goes through menopause, there is a good chance...really good chance...of her opening up more. She's already started. You've waited 22 years, give her a couple more. You will be rewarded. Trust me on this one.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

I will point out one thing that is probably obvious. Even if you could get her to just give you some BJs from time to time they would likely be horrible BJs so why bother.


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## Frustrated_Hubby (Mar 22, 2018)

All great advice. I am rereadiing the MMSL and NMMNG. Trying to put into practice more. In a quick discussion before work the other day she says that she is not a big old five on the initiation scale. (Big Bang Theory reference meaning she will not overtly initiate). My response was how am I supposed to tell the difference between you being cold and you wanting sex? She couldn't answer that. I continued by saying that i have interpreted this to mean sex only to get rejected on numerous occasions. So I stop trying. Somehow it always comes down to my fault in the equation. I asked her what I was supposed to do. Told her that I was going to expect sex more and initiate more. 

The once a week to ten days sex routine kills me also. Some, if not most, times, I end up with some PE because in my mind I'm like FINALLY!! YES!!!. She says its fine but I don't believe her. I think that if it were better for her then she would want to do it more. However, I cannot practice with out her so its a catch 22.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Frustrated_Hubby said:


> I think that if it were better for her then she would want to do it more.



Nah, it's a myth... you wife is the type who enjoys it when she does it, but it's not her top priority, i.e. she could live without it... my wife really enjoyed sex and had big big Os, but she never initiated and never asked for sex. She was the responsive type. But I didn't know that at the time.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Frustrated_Hubby said:


> My response was how am I supposed to tell the difference between you being cold and you wanting sex? She couldn't answer that.


No she can't answer that because it's not her job to hang a sign on the wall that says whether she is horny or not.

(And even if she did, 99.999% of the time, it would be "not")

Getting her warmed up and in the mood and making it good for her so she is open to doing it again is YOUR job.

This is where flirtation, romance, seduction, foreplay etc come in. 

Men have an on/off switch.

Women have a full launch sequence that's only a little more complex than launching the soace shuttle. 

That may be unfair and it may place much of the burden of a marital Sexlife on you, but that is the reality. Either put in the effort, or spank to porn.


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## Frustrated_Hubby (Mar 22, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> No she can't answer that because it's not her job to hang a sign on the wall that says whether she is horny or not.
> 
> (And even if she did, 99.999% of the time, it would be "not")
> 
> ...



That is all well and good. I understand that women are responsive. But getting rejected night after night without any "reward" or effort gets tiresome. Sometimes I get tired of the heavy lifting. I have made arrangements for romantic evenings when no one is home only to have her retire to the couch with her iPad or book. I made dinner, chilled wine, candles, the whole freaking nine yards. Response is "all you think about is sex." with an exasperated sigh. 

She does however give hug and kiss every morning when she gets up, but it seems only to appease. No going out of her way for other things. So....suggestions for the "launch sequence" would be greatly appreciated. After 22 years, I must be getting stale and predictable.


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## MaiChi (Jun 20, 2018)

Maybe, maybe your two need to actually plan your week together. Its like when I am really tired and I say to my husband "Let me make it up to you in the morning." It just means our scheduling do not match due to some bodily condition. If we had planned our week together and we both knew we were going to have some on Sunday, Tuesday and Thursday, they we both would be mentally looking forward to it or looking to reschedule but within a short time. 

We all work and have a lot to do and the body does not always oblige so leaving it to random chance may not work for some people. Just find a way to ask he to increase maybe to three times per fortnight instead of once per week. That is not a massive jump. It seems to me she is doing her best.


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## BigDigg (Jan 11, 2018)

Frustrated_Hubby said:


> That is all well and good. I understand that women are responsive. But getting rejected night after night without any "reward" or effort gets tiresome. Sometimes I get tired of the heavy lifting. I have made arrangements for romantic evenings when no one is home only to have her retire to the couch with her iPad or book. I made dinner, chilled wine, candles, the whole freaking nine yards. Response is "all you think about is sex." with an exasperated sigh.
> 
> She does however give hug and kiss every morning when she gets up, but it seems only to appease. No going out of her way for other things. So....suggestions for the "launch sequence" would be greatly appreciated. After 22 years, I must be getting stale and predictable.


Just spit-balling here - key is consistency and repetition over a long period. A big gussied up night is certainly a wonderful gesture but if that's not how you normally operate the other 29+ days of the month and you aren't constantly 'gaming' her - it just comes of as needy and expecting and desperate. I know that's not fair...but it's like if your wife is normally aloof and cold and then magically makes your favorite dinner and just starts sucking up to you...and then she drops a subtle hint that she really wants a new pair of Jimmy Choos.  

Honestly you might be in that situation where you should just take a complete break from sex all together for a period. Pretend your on date #1 again with no expectations. Spend a month learning to just love being around her, tease her playfully constantly, plan fun things for just the two of you, and hold her every night and morning without initiating or pressure. Just break this pattern. Let her initiate if she wants. If she loves you she'll come around eventually.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

Frustrated Hubby,

I can totally empathize with your situation. Married 27 years, our frequency is much better than yours for sex in general. But oral options -highly desired by me - are not part of the equation.

Early in the marriage, I used to ask for BJs and rejected almost every time. What a mood killer for me. Makes me feel like a chump. After about a decade of failed strategies to get BJs on the regular menu, it was better for me to just give up and stop asking for them. Less disappointment that way. I still try to go down on her on a somewhat regular basis, but she never wants me to linger. Always pushes me away after about 30 seconds. Based on her body reactions, she seems to enjoy it - even for the brief time I am there. But, I think she believes that she would have to reciprocate if she let me stay down there too long and she enjoyed herself too much.

She always said she felt "inhibited" in doing them when kids were in the house - that she would be less inhibited when we became empty nesters. My promise to her when we became empty nesters is that we would travel more. I've kept my end of the bargain. She's been on probably 15 trips with me the past three years, including mulitple visits to Paris, London and New York. I've also kept my personal vow to not ask for BJs. She is well aware that I like them. It's her choice whether she thinks its a priority of hers to make sure I'm happy.

Bottom line: number of BJs in the past three years - 0. One in the past five years. It's my fault in that I treat this as acceptable behavior. But I'm not interested in blowing up what is otherwise a good relationship due to this issue. Do I wish things were different in this area? Oh yeah, big time. But a BJ can't be demanded or requested. They can only be "given." My wife has proven through her actions over nearly three decades that this is something she's not interested in doing this for me. She has never explained why. While I'm not going to beg for them or plead for them, I regularly think about not being worthy of receiving them. She's in her mid-50s. Because of my income, she doesn't have to work. She gets to travel all the time. Doesn't have to wake up to an alarm clock to get to any assigned responsibilities.

In short, she gets a pretty darn good life day-to-day. Why is she not inclined to put a little effort in to make me feel good? I wish I had an answer for you. It baffles me. All I know is that the more I think about the situation, the more it frustrates me. For all the self-help books out there, I don't think there's anything you can do to change the mindset when it is long-held. The only thing you can control is your own outlook regarding the way you are treated.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Livvie said:


> Some of the worst people in terms of character and morals I have known to throughout my life have been avid church goers.
> 
> Case in point in extreme scale: priests and the sexual abuse of children.


I have found the opposite, the most decent people I have known have been Christians. 
RC priests who abused children are partly because of not allowing men who want to marry to be priests.
The church attracted many phedophiles and those with sexual issues. The fact that they didn't deal with the men who did this properly was another failing. 
Child abusers will always be attracted to jobs where they have access to children, even if that means having to become a priest first.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

BigDigg said:


> Hey PoI - just to be abundantly clear - I was never ever advocating that he try and make his wife fearful in pursuit of this. I agree that's a terrible thing to do and ultimately will backfire in so many ways. That's letting kids fish with dynamite. But the fact that he did stop receiving them right when he got married is maybe a bit of (sad) proof that sometimes women will offer that solely to keep a pliable man down. Or if in a happy marriage as a bit of positive mate-guarding (see hubby - no need to go looking anywhere, i've got what you want right here). Just explaining (as a man) how things seem to work.
> 
> I read his other post on another thread - it's absolutely clear that she's not attracted to him and the dynamic there is completely sour. BJ's for the guy are the cherry on the top of a great mutually satisfying marriage sundae. He's chasing a the end-game without putting in the hard work needed here. These threads all seem to mush together but it's (IMO) usually the same exact problem.


You mean you haven't fished with dynamite?

Man, I'm glad I'm from the country. We've done some crazy things as kids.

PS sorry for the OT comment. 😎😎


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Diana7 said:


> Just terrible advise. :frown2:


What about "want a new car today?" out of the blue....

One never knows 😃😃😃😃

I'm just kiddin', kinda.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

I just wish that people would be grateful for and appreciate the many good things about their spouse and marriage and not winge and moan about one thing they cant have. Honestly if I wanted something that my husband didn't like I would just forget it and move on. 
People have good reason why they don't want to do some things, so respect that and forget it. 

There are so many people who are lonely and alone, so be thankful that you have a wife who loves you and a good marriage. The glass you have is 99% full, don't focus in the 1% that is empty.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Frustrated_Hubby said:


> All great advice. I am rereadiing the MMSL and NMMNG. Trying to put into practice more. In a quick discussion before work the other day she says that she is not a big old five on the initiation scale. (Big Bang Theory reference meaning she will not overtly initiate). My response was how am I supposed to tell the difference between you being cold and you wanting sex? She couldn't answer that. I continued by saying that i have interpreted this to mean sex only to get rejected on numerous occasions. So I stop trying. Somehow it always comes down to my fault in the equation. I asked her what I was supposed to do. Told her that I was going to expect sex more and initiate more.
> 
> The once a week to ten days sex routine kills me also. Some, if not most, times, I end up with some PE because in my mind I'm like FINALLY!! YES!!!. She says its fine but I don't believe her. I think that if it were better for her then she would want to do it more. However, I cannot practice with out her so its a catch 22.


This is a tough spot. I've been married 34yrs now and we have a varied sex life, resulting from a serious talk several years ago as we moved towards empty nest. 

Getting to the point, like anyone, after a certain time one can only get another to do something if they think it's their idea or it will directly benefit them. 

The how here, is the summary question. 

Good luck!


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

*Expanding Horizons with LD wief*



Frustrated_Hubby said:


> A little back story. I am 48, she is 51. Menopause has set in but nothing more than the hot flashes. We have sex 1x a week. I want more. She says the right things but nothing changes.
> 
> 
> 
> I seem to be able to get her to be a little more adventurous lately. She has bought some new and different sexy clothes for me. She has tried different postitions. For the longest time it was missionary only. We have done doggy since. I really want oral both give and receive. Haven't gotten since marriage 22 years ago. How can I get a BJ and go down on her without nagging?



Simple: get divorced then marry her again to get another BJ. Rinse and repeat (her and you). That’s what obviously does the trick.


Ok so this may not apply to you...but I had this thing once with my wife: I told her once, while holding my head in both hands in desperation, because I was at my wit’s end. I asked her: “why do you make things so difficult for me every time I want to do something different with you? It makes me want to just give up!”

This was on the way back home, she was naked in the car, after I pretend-abducted, tied her up and took her to the forest at dusk, not far away from our house and left her tied to a tree for a while, blindfolded. She likes the sound of nature. 

The problem is she always gives me a hard time every time I want to try some new sexual thing with her but in the end always enjoys it. This has always puzzled me: why such resistance at the beginning if it’s ultimately a pleasure?

She said to me something that made me feel like a stupid idiot: she said that I completely ruin it for her with all these questions and complaints. The resistance is part of her spiel; she likes my insistence and determination to follow through with no matter what I have in mind. Protesting, nagging and resisting is part of it and instead of getting annoyed not getting something, I should always try harder getting whatever it is I want; the more she feels that I want it, the more of a turn on it is for her. She hates the most when I give up and start sulking about it.
It helped me come to terms and view her nagging as something exciting, rather than a type of noise that used to split my head in half.



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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> they can also turn a porn star into a frigid librarian.



Hey I have never met a ‘frigid librarian’! They are the kinkiest! And knowledgeable as well.



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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> She hasn't had oral sex performed on her in over 20 years *(that you know of). *



Haha, nice one  




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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

*Expanding Horizons with LD wief*



Frustrated_Hubby said:


> . However, I cannot practice with out her so its a catch 22.



Yeah you can. Clean your pipes and drain your soldiers regularly, like a real man, to get ready for your next battle.
It should last longer than the Blitzkrieg. ⚡



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## Where there's a will (Feb 10, 2014)

If I could have all the time back that I've spent trying to work out why although my wife loves me she doesn't put out sexually for me I would literally have half my life again! Flogging a dead horse is the local expression.


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## Frustrated_Hubby (Mar 22, 2018)

I appears to me that there is some truth in the fact that she is not attracted to me anymore. A couple weeks ago I told her that I was tired of coming in behind the iPad, TV, and the dogs. I come home to find her computer, iPad and phone piled up on my chair. So I just put it on the table and left it. Slowly she has started to take them. 

So, I am thinking of rejoining the gym and going after dinner (when she would be playing/watching tv). I will offer her to go with me but I doubt she will. I have tracked how often we have sex for the past year and it is once every 7-10 days. I am giving up on that as well. 

I have booked a romantic getaway for us for January and am unsure if I will keep it. Why spend $1000 for time away to do nothing. She knows about it. We shall see. Actions not words.


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## Where there's a will (Feb 10, 2014)

Frustrated_Hubby said:


> I appears to me that there is some truth in the fact that she is not attracted to me anymore. A couple weeks ago I told her that I was tired of coming in behind the iPad, TV, and the dogs. I come home to find her computer, iPad and phone piled up on my chair. So I just put it on the table and left it. Slowly she has started to take them.
> 
> So, I am thinking of rejoining the gym and going after dinner (when she would be playing/watching tv). I will offer her to go with me but I doubt she will. I have tracked how often we have sex for the past year and it is once every 7-10 days. I am giving up on that as well.
> 
> I have booked a romantic getaway for us for January and am unsure if I will keep it. Why spend $1000 for time away to do nothing. She knows about it. We shall see. Actions not words.


It sounds like this is what she needs to hear. Does she want to enter the endgame of the marriage?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

I am glad you realize you are allowing your resentment towards yourself to be projected upon your wife. 

This is the right move. It also needs to be accompanied by you reducing the things you do that are special for her.

And next time she says it is all about sex, simply say:

"When you minimize and insult what is important to me, it tells me all I need to know regarding my priority in your life."

Then walk away.

Learn another statement:

"If you want more from me, you can start by doing more for me."



Frustrated_Hubby said:


> I appears to me that there is some truth in the fact that she is not attracted to me anymore. A couple weeks ago I told her that I was tired of coming in behind the iPad, TV, and the dogs. I come home to find her computer, iPad and phone piled up on my chair. So I just put it on the table and left it. Slowly she has started to take them.
> 
> So, I am thinking of rejoining the gym and going after dinner (when she would be playing/watching tv). I will offer her to go with me but I doubt she will. I have tracked how often we have sex for the past year and it is once every 7-10 days. I am giving up on that as well.
> 
> I have booked a romantic getaway for us for January and am unsure if I will keep it. Why spend $1000 for time away to do nothing. She knows about it. We shall see. Actions not words.


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## Frustrated_Hubby (Mar 22, 2018)

I have been refraining from asking, initiating or even mentioning sex. She has not said anything. I have been going to bed a few minutes earlier than her, that way she has to put the dogs in my sons room and shut off all the lights. I am still getting the morning hug/kiss ritual but it seems to be a little different in a good way. 

I don't know what she senses or realizes is going on. She will still lay against me in bed. I ask if she is cold or not. Usually that is the case. I just lay there and let her put my hand or arm where she wants. Then i just sleep or fake sleep. Not gonna push for anything. If she wants it then she knows where i am


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## BigDigg (Jan 11, 2018)

Good stuff and good start. Pulling for you. But I do want to caution...don't expect her to change. In fact expect that 1) she'll not initiate at all and will be blissful about this 2) she'll get cold and icy if/when she realizes that you're pulling back attention for her. If she senses that you are 'acting out' to force her to change she'll be angry and will lose respect. She probably likes the status-quo and it will come off as a tantrum of a child, not a strong independent man reasserting himself. She doesn't think of you as a strong man now and that will take a really long time to change that view after so many years. TBH the whole leaving her toys out thing comes off as silly (for both of you). Don't do silly things to get her attention or make statements in the hope that she gets a message and comes back to you. Won't happen. 

So find yourself again and do these changes for you and you alone. I'd add that you should find 1-2 new hobbies to invest your time in. Get out of the house and meet new people (men and women) and start to learn again how it feels to chase your passions and live for yourself.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> No she can't answer that because it's not her job to hang a sign on the wall that says whether she is horny or not.
> 
> (And even if she did, 99.999% of the time, it would be "not")
> 
> ...


Or put in the effort and still get nothing. Happens all the time. Is it any wonder some get discouraged. People like to see a return on investment.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Frustrated_Hubby said:


> I have been refraining from asking, initiating or even mentioning sex. She has not said anything. I have been going to bed a few minutes earlier than her, that way she has to put the dogs in my sons room and shut off all the lights. I am still getting the morning hug/kiss ritual but it seems to be a little different in a good way.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know what she senses or realizes is going on. She will still lay against me in bed. I ask if she is cold or not. Usually that is the case. I just lay there and let her put my hand or arm where she wants. Then i just sleep or fake sleep. Not gonna push for anything. If she wants it then she knows where i am



Why don’t you just have sex with her? 
Turn around, start kissing her, insert it wherever it needs to be inserted and not complicate things. What do you think is going to change if you keep doing whatever it is you are (not) doing?
Women don’t generally initiate. They think they are initiating when they blink but it’s not initiating...


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

inmyprime said:


> Why don’t you just have sex with her?
> Turn around, start kissing her, insert it wherever it needs to be inserted and not complicate things. What do you think is going to change if you keep doing whatever it is you are (not) doing?
> Women don’t generally initiate. *They think they are initiating when they blink* but it’s not initiating...
> 
> ...


That's because they think most men think any time a woman looks their way, it must mean she wants to have sex with them! :laugh:

Seriously though, your are on to something with regard to many women. Their "initiation" can be much more subtle and it's up to the man to be able to read them well enough to know what is an what isn't.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> That's because they think most men think any time a woman looks their way, it must mean she wants to have sex with them! :laugh:



Doesn’t she? 




Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Seriously though, your are on to something with regard to many women. Their "initiation" can be much more subtle and it's up to the man to be able to read them well enough to know what is an what isn't.



I was going to add that I am not sure they expect the man to read it. Sometimes they expect the man to just **** them even if they are not sure whether they are in the mood or not.
I don’t know how it is with others but I do notice with myself that I’m becoming more and more lazy at initiating. I can see how it is easy to project this on the wife (that she’s not as much into sex anymore).
My theory is that a man will never admit to himself he has a decline in libido; but he will find a justification (that his wife doesn’t initiate as much as she used to anymore). I mean this within a scenario where the guy complains about lack of frequency, enthusiasm or quality of sex and not in cases when there is no sex at all.

I also don’t mean that it’s all in the man’s imagination but I think there are various components at play and I would look at every single one of them. I remember the times when I used to cum prematurely from just looking at my wife (ok, slight exaggeration, it wasn’t premature) but now (at 38) I sometimes do find it a bit of a chore to do the whole spiel of hard & aggressive initiation, and sometimes naturally tend to wait until her vajayjay or mouth (accidentally) fall on my lap: it’s just easier that way. And if it doesn’t, sulk for a bit till it does...It’s not nice. Also for her (especially for her). And I actively am trying to avoid this. But sometimes I just want to sleep....



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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Loss of attraction comes in two flavors, though they certainly aren’t mutually exclusive. 

1. Chassis issues 
- Fitness
- Hygene
- Formatting (mostly hair and clothing)

2. Spirit/ Behavioral issues
- Lack of adventurousness/spontaneity 
- Lack of edge 
- Lack of playfulness 






Frustrated_Hubby said:


> I appears to me that there is some truth in the fact that she is not attracted to me anymore. A couple weeks ago I told her that I was tired of coming in behind the iPad, TV, and the dogs. I come home to find her computer, iPad and phone piled up on my chair. So I just put it on the table and left it. Slowly she has started to take them.
> 
> So, I am thinking of rejoining the gym and going after dinner (when she would be playing/watching tv). I will offer her to go with me but I doubt she will. I have tracked how often we have sex for the past year and it is once every 7-10 days. I am giving up on that as well.
> 
> I have booked a romantic getaway for us for January and am unsure if I will keep it. Why spend $1000 for time away to do nothing. She knows about it. We shall see. Actions not words.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

inmyprime said:


> Doesn’t she?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're probably on to something there as well. Dude still want's to go at every day and twice on Sundays, it at least in his mind, because that's how he's always been. But when the body doesn't act like it used to, it's natural to think external forces are to blame. Dude want's a little help getting the crank turned, but won't admit that's what he needs to keep up the old pace.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

Frustrated_Hubby said:


> A little back story. I am 48, she is 51. Menopause has set in but nothing more than the hot flashes. We have sex 1x a week. I want more. She says the right things but nothing changes.
> 
> I seem to be able to get her to be a little more adventurous lately. She has bought some new and different sexy clothes for me. She has tried different postitions. For the longest time it was missionary only. We have done doggy since. I really want oral both give and receive. Haven't gotten since marriage 22 years ago. How can I get a BJ and go down on her without nagging?


In one of your posts, you mentioned her saying something like, "all you think about is sex". That screams out to me that she doesn't understand what sex means to a man. There is a thread here on TAm with the title "what does sex mean to a man" or something like that that you would both benefit from reading. She doesn't understand that she is basically telling you, "I don't desire you, I don't find you attractive and I don't want to emotionally bond with you.". She probably thinks that sex for you is only a means to an orgasm making her feel like a masturbatory aid. I would start there with an open and painfully honest conversation on the topic, what sex means to each of you.


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## aaarghdub (Jul 15, 2017)

I think for some women (especially those with growing anxiety, germ or unclean phobias like mine) sex becomes kinda gross and messy as they get older. In other threads, some women have mentioned they hate the taste of the pre-cum. Some men are repulsed by going down a woman. I can’t stand the smell of steamed broccoli... that’s just who I am.

In my case, my W Is pre-menopausal and while we have sex every two weeks, its fine but has become routine with little fanfare. She’s mentioned that talking about sex is now crude and hasn’t gone down on me since April. In fact. I don’t think she really likes it TBH but doesn’t have the guts to say anything or rock the boat. Has ZERO problem receiving it though.




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## Frustrated_Hubby (Mar 22, 2018)

Well, it has been a week since anything sexual happened between us and I think that she is feeling something is up. She has been coming to bed at the same time as me instead of watching her show. When she comes to bed, she immediately spoons or drapes herself overtop of me. Of course, I passive aggressively say are you cold. One time she starts rubbing my chest and then promplty falls asleep. Yesterday, she comes over to me when she gets up (i am up earlier and dressed by this time) and I get "hansdy" She usually stops me, but like I said its been a week and I think she is starting to feel guilty.

Question is what do I do? This is a typical pattern for her. This happens every 7-10 days. I know she is initiating, but I think it is out of pity or duty. I don't want that. I have told her that. I should probably just go with it, but it just out of duty not love or desire. I am conflicted here.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Frustrated_Hubby said:


> Question is what do I do?



You **** her. Like a man.
What is the difference between initiating ‘out of guilt’ and initiating? Does it matter why she is initiating? She shouldn’t even be initiating. You should just be ****ing her.


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

* Frustrated
Then i just sleep or fake sleep. Not gonna push for anything. If she wants it then she knows where i am.*

All that is only going to get you less sex. Most likely she won't have enough mental desire to "find you." 

The good sign is she is coming to bed with you so put your hands on her where it gives you a boner and go from there. Do what Inmyprime suggested above. As far as you having a problem with PE. rubbing one out solo a couple of hours before PIV sex will slow down the PE quite a bit.

I think most women like to be held and spooned. In some cases it gets their desire going from 0 MPH to maybe 5 MPH, which isn't much but still better than nothing. Also ask he what type of touch makes her feel sexy or desired.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Frustrated_Hubby said:


> Well, it has been a week since anything sexual happened between us and I think that she is feeling something is up. She has been coming to bed at the same time as me instead of watching her show. When she comes to bed, she immediately spoons or drapes herself overtop of me. Of course, I passive aggressively say are you cold. One time she starts rubbing my chest and then promplty falls asleep. Yesterday, she comes over to me when she gets up (i am up earlier and dressed by this time) and I get "hansdy" She usually stops me, but like I said its been a week and I think she is starting to feel guilty.
> 
> Question is what do I do? This is a typical pattern for her. This happens every 7-10 days. I know she is initiating, but I think it is out of pity or duty. I don't want that. I have told her that. I should probably just go with it, but it just out of duty not love or desire. I am conflicted here.


 If she is initiating and you are rejecting her, she will eventually give up and assume you are not interested. I have no idea why you are doing this.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> If she is initiating and you are rejecting her, she will eventually give up and assume you are not interested. *I have no idea why you are doing this*.


Because he thinks it's out of pity or duty and it's a turn off for him. There is no way out of this, unfortunately.


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## aaarghdub (Jul 15, 2017)

I’m in the same boat as OP. In fact, a couple months ago, my W let it slip that in the years between having our youngest (8) and last year when she went on HRT she “only had sex ‘cause she had to” She knew she really stepped in it after that came out.

I don’t think women realize how emotionally devastating that is for a man to hear. We’re in MC now and sex has yet to come up. I’m willing to work on/accommodate it but it’s hard to have conversations about sex when one partner won’t talk about it or talks around it. I’ve flat out told her that I don’t understand her sexuality but I desperately want to. She probably doesn’t understand it herself or has some undisclosed trauma in her past. 

My wife now keeps sex in a box that comes out only when all the conditions are right and her to-do list is small enough to allow her enjoy 15 minutes then it’s back to the to-do list. So I basically get booty calls. Has she complained I don’t initiate? You bet... but you can’t “friend zone” your husband or share feelings and post signs that are antithetical to wanting sex 24/7 for two weeks and expect them to read you’re mind that they want/wanted/are wanting you to take them.

There is a mental and emotional components to this. 

Mental - As Esther Perez says you can have the erotic or the domestic but they are diametrically opposed to each other. Being her personal assistant won’t get you laid. Them finding your erotic and pursuable means you’re in essence “up for grabs” which stirs the competitive juices but what wife/mom has the energy for that in you’re 50s? She’s been there done that. Likely to her it’s nothing special much like going out to eat. You either stop in for a quick bite because you don’t fell like cooking or you plan and make an evening out of it somewhere fancy. Same act (eating), different contexts.

Emotional - If your wife’s love avoidant like mine, expressing any meaningful affection or desire is extremely difficult. If your wife is normal maybe she doesn’t feel sexy or like she can’t compete with the way women are portrayed on TV and movies. Menopause can emotionally drain because you are not young anymore and feel less desirable. Hormone fluctuations and hot flashes don’t help either. Women need safety/comfort, men need to feel desired. You want to make love... she may just want a booty call. Maybe she’s worried if she doesn’t give it up you’ll leave. You keep rejecting her and she’ll give up.

BL - Without doing MC you’ll never know. Often times we reinforce our own negative narrative.

I just take what I can get for now while the MC is in progress. It’s a shame my wife thinks something so beautiful is now crude and needs to compartmentalized. In all likelihood, there is something else emotionally going that you both need to get it the bottom of.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

aaarghdub said:


> I’m in the same boat as OP. In fact, a couple months ago, my W let it slip that in the years between having our youngest (8) and last year when she went on HRT she “only had sex ‘cause she had to” She knew she really stepped in it after that came out.


Yep, I got that too. When she told me she didn't want to have sex with me ever again. Well, after that bombshell, I'm not sure I would want to have sex with her either. :laugh:
In a way I'm lucky. The "problem" has been taken off me. I don't have to find a solution anymore. It's sad, but it's a relief too. I wish you well.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

In Absentia said:


> Because he thinks it's out of pity or duty and it's a turn off for him. There is no way out of this, unfortunately.


The he is cutting his own throat.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Diana7 said:


> The he is cutting his own throat.


Nope, you may as well **** a mannequin.

You can talk til you're blue in the face, read all the books you want, etc, etc, etc

And from the female responses buy her flowers, cards, do all the housework, generally kiss her ass and it won't change the fact that she doesn't care enough about you to do a thing.

Go your own way. Like she is.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Marc878 said:


> Nope, you may as well **** a mannequin.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




That’s not what is happening though. From his descriptions, she is trying to jump his bones every night but he is not responding because he feels she is doing it out of ‘duty’...

My wife is also one of the best, most understanding, amazing, empathetic, sexual human beings. I think she became like this to manipulate me. What a *****. 


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## Frustrated_Hubby (Mar 22, 2018)

I understand what all you guys are saying but when it really comes down to it, what we do is on her agenda. When she "feels" like it. When its not too hot, too cold, too late, too early, or the moon is in retrograde (whatever the hell that means). Then when we do it, I feel ****ty after because it comes from pity or duty not love (in my opinion). 


Maybe I need to seek help from someone. Maybe it is me. Maybe I am expecting too much from her. She seems content the way things are in the bedroom. 

Everything else is great. Great kids. Great jobs. Nice house. Two cars in the driveway. Pretty much debt free. Maybe I am making too much out of nothing.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Frustrated_Hubby said:


> I understand what all you guys are saying but when it really comes down to it, what we do is on her agenda. When she "feels" like it. When its not too hot, too cold, too late, too early, or the moon is in retrograde (whatever the hell that means). Then when we do it, I feel ****ty after because it comes from pity or duty not love (in my opinion).
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Have you talked to her about it? Have you explained exactly what the issue is? Don’t make her guess.


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## Frustrated_Hubby (Mar 22, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> Have you talked to her about it? Have you explained exactly what the issue is? Don’t make her guess.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yup Many times. Things get better for about a week or two. Maybe its just the way things will be.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Frustrated_Hubby said:


> Yup Many times. Things get better for about a week or two. Maybe its just the way things will be.



But what does she actually say when you bring it up? (And what do you say?)
Ask her, for example, whether she minds it if you just take her, whenever you feel like it (obviously at appropriate moments, maybe not necessarily right in front of your in laws).
Unfortunately it’s a need that is hard for men to express and very hard for women to understand (if they don’t have the same need). So your best bet is communication.
Your other options are to look at her hormonal stuff imbalances (if she has any) and birth control. But I understand that for you, it’s more about the fact that you don’t want to be ‘nagging’ her or feel like it’s a chore for her.
Maybe you just need reassurance from her that this is not the case?


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## Frustrated_Hubby (Mar 22, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> But what does she actually say when you bring it up? (And what do you say?)
> Ask her, for example, whether she minds it if you just take her, whenever you feel like it (obviously at appropriate moments, maybe not necessarily right in front of your in laws).
> Unfortunately it’s a need that is hard for men to express and very hard for women to understand (if they don’t have the same need). So your best bet is communication.
> Your other options are to look at her hormonal stuff imbalances (if she has any) and birth control. But I understand that for you, it’s more about the fact that you don’t want to be ‘nagging’ her or feel like it’s a chore for her.
> ...


What does she say..... Hmmmm.... After the big sigh and the eye roll, its usually some thing like Not this again....

She is very independent and headstong. Had to be growing up. I think that most times I am afraid of making her upset and angry. She just shuts down and nothing happens. As a result, I am sure that I come across weak. I have expressed to her the need for intimacy as a way of being close. I do the flowers, cards, buy her coffee, etc. She does not. I have also told her that I don't want pity or duty sex. When we do, my PE comes into play and I feel like **** after. 

I don't or can't "take her". She would get really pissed if I tried. Which leaves me at a loss of otions


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Frustrated_Hubby said:


> What does she say..... Hmmmm.... After the big sigh and the eye roll, its usually some thing like Not this again....
> 
> She is very independent and headstong. Had to be growing up. I think that most times I am afraid of making her upset and angry. She just shuts down and nothing happens. As a result, I am sure that I come across weak. I have expressed to her the need for intimacy as a way of being close. I do the flowers, cards, buy her coffee, etc. She does not. I have also told her that I don't want pity or duty sex. When we do, my PE comes into play and I feel like **** after.
> 
> I don't or can't "take her". She would get really pissed if I tried. Which leaves me at a loss of otions



Sound familiar... I think you will have to accept the way she is and be grateful (yes, grateful) that you have a wife who at least is making some effort to keep you happy. The world is not perfect, relationships are not perfect. Don't make my mistake. Stop pressurising her. Step back, keep being nice to her and look into yourself. Do you really want to divorce over this?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Frustrated_Hubby said:


> What does she say..... Hmmmm.... After the big sigh and the eye roll, its usually some thing like Not this again....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Doesn’t sound like communication is good between you two. Try to talk openly after sex; that’s the best time.

For PE: schedule sex nights into the diary (duty or no duty). Masturbate morning of that day or the day before then you can last longer. It needs to be enjoyable for her too, so she can come back for more..


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## Frustrated_Hubby (Mar 22, 2018)

I have been up for a while thinking, which is probably not a good thing for me. But last night we were scheduled to be home alone for a couple hours, son was out. Told her over the weekend that I would like some time with her while we were alone. Cue eye roll. She comes home later than normal, probably avoiding the issue. Texted her that I was hoping to fool around while son was out. Nothing. Nothing later either. 

So here is where i get myself in more trouble. I know that with my PE she doesn't always orgasm, and she says its fine. I beg to differ. I want to ask what she wants from me? If she does not want me or want to have sex with me, then I need to know. It isn't a sword that I want to fall on and end our relationship, but i need to know. Ir she does, then show it. If she doesn't, then it is time for me to find other outlets for myself. What are your thoughts?


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Frustrated_Hubby said:


> What are your thoughts?



Yes, you need to know. But she does want to have sex with you. Only on her terms and without being hounded. Are you prepared to keep having sex with her at her "command" and when she feels like it? Are you prepared to wait until she is ready, every time? Are you happy with the present frequency? If not, you should get out.

She is not going to change. You will have to change your approach and your expectations if you are going to stay.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

She doesn’t get much from sex. Full stop. 

She also doesn’t want a divorce. 

But it sounds like this all started 22 years ago when you married and oral sex stopped. 





Frustrated_Hubby said:


> I have been up for a while thinking, which is probably not a good thing for me. But last night we were scheduled to be home alone for a couple hours, son was out. Told her over the weekend that I would like some time with her while we were alone. Cue eye roll. She comes home later than normal, probably avoiding the issue. Texted her that I was hoping to fool around while son was out. Nothing. Nothing later either.
> 
> So here is where i get myself in more trouble. I know that with my PE she doesn't always orgasm, and she says its fine. I beg to differ. I want to ask what she wants from me? If she does not want me or want to have sex with me, then I need to know. It isn't a sword that I want to fall on and end our relationship, but i need to know. Ir she does, then show it. If she doesn't, then it is time for me to find other outlets for myself. What are your thoughts?


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

This may sound like "game" but it's not untended to be. Just using common traits of humans.

There are very few reasons where a person will change their worldview. And that's what W is demonstrating here, in her mind she's doing nothing wrong, abnormal, or hurtful to you her H.

Among reasons one will change are fear and want.

Among those are the fear of loss to great to bear, and believing they want to make a change if they believe it's their own idea.

A key is, what's critically important to her that she would make her own decision to make a change if necessary to acquire it?

And; what does she fear to lose, that she would make a change on her own, to keep?

Or some versions of these concepts. 

Otherwise things will stay the same.


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## Dusk (Oct 29, 2018)

I think having sex with him out of fear that otherwise he’ll leave would not be satisfying or sustainable. 

Find out why she’s not enjoying sex. Then see if you can work together to make it better. 


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Dusk said:


> I think having sex with him out of fear that otherwise he’ll leave would not be satisfying or sustainable.
> 
> Find out why she’s not enjoying sex. Then see if you can work together to make it better.
> 
> ...


 I am very high drive and was in a sexless marriage. And I do agree with this period this whole me man, give me 6 or I will find woman who will garbage is not gonna help your marriage or your sex life. That is not being alpha, that is being a Jack a**. And good luck with it.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

Frustrated_Hubby said:


> I have been up for a while thinking, which is probably not a good thing for me. But last night we were scheduled to be home alone for a couple hours, son was out. Told her over the weekend that I would like some time with her while we were alone. Cue eye roll. She comes home later than normal, probably avoiding the issue. Texted her that I was hoping to fool around while son was out. Nothing. Nothing later either.
> 
> So here is where i get myself in more trouble. I know that with my PE she doesn't always orgasm, and she says its fine. I beg to differ. I want to ask what she wants from me? If she does not want me or want to have sex with me, then I need to know. It isn't a sword that I want to fall on and end our relationship, but i need to know. Ir she does, then show it. If she doesn't, then it is time for me to find other outlets for myself. What are your thoughts?


We are different people but I would have addressed the eye roll before going any further. To me, that signifies a complete lack of respect my my feelings, needs and wants. I don't want to have sex with a person like that. Your sperm pressure is affecting your self respect in my opinion. Go masturbate, wait 30 minutes and then have a sit down conversation. You will be surprised at how much you are willing to stand up for yourself without that need to orgasm. Your wife wants to have sex with you, just not the version of yourself that you are presenting. 

She doesn't feel comfortable being open and vulnerable with you. You've got to learn the environment that allows her to be sexual and communication is how you find that out, open and honest communication. The same environment that allows her to be open, honest and vulnerable is the same one that will unleash her sexual side. Ask her what she needs from you to be able to be totally honest about her feelings. Suggest that maybe you need to work on not sulking when you don't get what you want, maybe you react harshly to criticism. Offer something of an olive branch and see if you can make any headway.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Dusk said:


> I think having sex with him out of fear that otherwise he’ll leave would not be satisfying or sustainable.
> 
> Find out why she’s not enjoying sex. Then see if you can work together to make it better.
> 
> ...


In my opinion it's not sustainable either. 

Very likely they're beyond the single statement "fixes" such as it's not fun and OP isn't doing anything to correct that one circumstance. 

At least from the outside. Only OP knows deeper. Perhaps something is blocking his request for true communication with W as to why she won't try to meet his needs.

I'm not saying it's one sided. If something like this goes on for a very extended time, there is something purposefully or unknown blocking true answers flowing between partners.

The first step by one that wants a closer relationship is to somehow find out if that "something" is intentional or not.

If one SO won't at least try to find out in tandem with other SO, that itself may be construed as at least one fact in the group of facts needed to improve the relationship or decide with a heavy heart it's forever a losing battle. 

I'd like to think all couples who want to improve things can and will. Both have to have the desire to.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

And fwiw, your approach to getting assistance via the internet seems to parallel your approach to your wife:
- There’s no plan
- So it comes across as sort of random
- Tentative
- Highly ego protective 

That combo will just make things worse. 



Frustrated_Hubby said:


> I have been up for a while thinking, which is probably not a good thing for me. But last night we were scheduled to be home alone for a couple hours, son was out. Told her over the weekend that I would like some time with her while we were alone. Cue eye roll. She comes home later than normal, probably avoiding the issue. Texted her that I was hoping to fool around while son was out. Nothing. Nothing later either.
> 
> So here is where i get myself in more trouble. I know that with my PE she doesn't always orgasm, and she says its fine. I beg to differ. I want to ask what she wants from me? If she does not want me or want to have sex with me, then I need to know. It isn't a sword that I want to fall on and end our relationship, but i need to know. Ir she does, then show it. If she doesn't, then it is time for me to find other outlets for myself. What are your thoughts?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I also agree that fear and threats etc should not be the end-goal and that duty/starfish sex out of fear is not what anyone wants. 

However if things break down enough to where the stability and viability of the relationship is threatened, sometimes it takes the realization that the relationship itself is at stake if things aren't addressed.

No one wants sex motivated by fear or duress. But sometimes that is what it takes for people to wake up and realize the seriousness and come to the table to address the issues that may be eroding their desire and attraction.

In my own personal experience, when I was trying to get through to my wife that we had problems and she would simply get mad and tell me things were my problem. 

It wasn't until we were in MC and the counselor got in her face and told her I had legitimate grievances and that I had a reasonable post-divorce plan and that I had one foot out the door now and on my out and that she would soon be a single, 45 year old mother if she didn't wake up that she took it seriously.

Was she overcome with joy and live and lust and desire??? - no. She was p1$$ed. 

But it did do was cause her to do some soul searching and realize that she didn't want to divorce and decided to come to the negotiation table and address her issues and actually communicate and problem solve rather than remain in the fog that told her everything was peachy-keen and that I was just being Whiney and that my needs weren't relevant. 

Her initial fear and anger did nothing to improve our relationship and in the initial stages of the MC telling her she would be a divorced mother, things were actually worse for awhile.

But what it did do was shake her out of her fog and her complacency and brought her to the discussion table to actually address our issues.


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## Frustrated_Hubby (Mar 22, 2018)

MEM2020 said:


> And fwiw, your approach to getting assistance via the internet seems to parallel your approach to your wife:
> - There’s no plan
> - So it comes across as sort of random
> - Tentative
> ...


I agree with the above. SO what should i do? I am getting tired of doing the work, stoking the proverbial fires all the time only to be faced with a fire extinguisher.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

This is completely off topic, but my heart lipped with joy when I looked at this thread and realized the word wife was finally spelled correctly lol


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Aaaah, THAT’s what the thread was about! I was wondering what an Expanding LD Whiff was.


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## BigDigg (Jan 11, 2018)

Frustrated_Hubby said:


> I agree with the above. SO what should i do? I am getting tired of doing the work, stoking the proverbial fires all the time only to be faced with a fire extinguisher.


Sorry OP if I get this thread confused with other similar ones. Believe that several of us have provided input. Your wife just isn't attracted to you. Period. She doesn't desire sex with you. Period. It's a chore for her and she'll do it out of obligation or when you get cranky. Talking about it now will only make things worse. She knows, trust me. She doesn't care. It's sad and you probably are a great guy and didn't mean for this to happen, but accept reality. There's no quick fix here.

Now why isn't your wife attracted to you and what can you do about it? Well - work on yourself. That's all that you can control. Be attractive (make sure you are physically fit, find interesting hobbies, live your life for you, bring leadership and fun to your family and relationship). Don't be unattractive (don't beg or whine about the lack of sex, don't entertain silly arguments or get bent out of shape easily, don't be a loser sitting on the couch all the time). Basically you need to get to a place where you don't *care* about your wife's attention and then funny enough, she'll sense that and might want to get onboard again. Or not and at least your the best version of you and live your life the best you can. Let the chips fall in that case.

Whatever you do don't fall for "#Reasons" or try to negotiate anything. Doing more dishes won't change things. There will always be endless more #Reasons. Can't negotiate attraction or desire.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

How did you get here?

What was your sex life like prior to getting married?
How long did you date before marrying?

Was there any discussion about your sex life when marriage caused it to become less varied?




Frustrated_Hubby said:


> I agree with the above. SO what should i do? I am getting tired of doing the work, stoking the proverbial fires all the time only to be faced with a fire extinguisher.


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## Frustrated_Hubby (Mar 22, 2018)

MEM2020 said:


> How did you get here?
> 
> What was your sex life like prior to getting married?
> *I was not very experienced and I don't think that she was either. I don't know for sure because I did not really care about it. She was mine. We lived together for over a year before getting married. Sex was more frequent than now. Not every night but more often than not. Including some oral on her part during the monthly visitor.
> ...


*yes. usually initiated by me. If she had her way, then it would be straight missionary.* 


Gonna work on me. Need to get in shape (never really have been in all that great shape) I have been close to 300 pounds, down to 175 and now steady at 225. Just with the middle aged spare tire. Fake it til you make it.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

FH,

This will likely be my final post to you. 

You have no idea what you are doing. Your more worried about how you look (optics), than how you actually are. 

If you want help - real help - you need to reply with: 

I need help. I don’t really know what to do, and am going to stop pretending otherwise. I will consistently reply to questions on this thread within one day. 

——————
I already know at least two reasons I wouldn’t have sex with you if I were your wife. 







Frustrated_Hubby said:


> *yes. usually initiated by me. If she had her way, then it would be straight missionary.*
> 
> 
> Gonna work on me. Need to get in shape (never really have been in all that great shape) I have been close to 300 pounds, down to 175 and now steady at 225. Just with the middle aged spare tire. Fake it til you make it.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> F
> 
> I already know at least two reasons I wouldn’t have sex with you if I were your wife.



Wot? Not only his wife, but now also the moderators are not going to have sex with him either?
Kick a man when he’s down... 



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## Frustrated_Hubby (Mar 22, 2018)

MEM2020 said:


> FH,
> 
> This will likely be my final post to you.
> 
> ...


And... since i obviously am in need of assistance. What would those two reasons be. You can post or message me. Because really I do not know what to do


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Frustrated_Hubby said:


> And... since i obviously am in need of assistance. What would those two reasons be. You can post or message me. Because really I do not know what to do


I think we all want to know now... I'm baffled as you are... :laugh:


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Frustrated_Hubby said:


> And... since i obviously am in need of assistance. What would those two reasons be. You can post or message me. Because really I do not know what to do



I'll tell you one thing that is unattractive. You are passive and you abdicate responsibility.

You text her you want her to come home early. You text her you want to fool around.

Then you WAIT?
Like you told her what you wanted in a completely passive mode of communication, avoiding real interaction, and then it is up to HER to come to YOU and give you what you want?

NO

You want it, you don't lay it her doorstep. You get off the couch, go TO her, take her hand, and say "I want you."

This is like those people who call when they KNOW you aren't going to be home so they can leave a message and stick it in your court when THEY are the ones asking a favor.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> I'll tell you one thing that is unattractive. You are passive and you abdicate responsibility.
> 
> You text her you want her to come home early. You text her you want to fool around.
> 
> ...



yes, but... I like my wife as she is... sometimes fat, sometimes pregnant, sometimes slim... I don't mind how she is, what she is, what she does... I want her regardless. Why can't she do the same? Why do we have to play these games all the time? I am who I am. I'm not a bastard... I'm a decent human being. I'm still the same man she married. Just carry on loving me for what I am. I'm doing it. Why can't you? Why do I have to become a different person?


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

In Absentia said:


> yes, but... I like my wife as she is... sometimes fat, sometimes pregnant, sometimes slim... I don't mind how she is, what she is, what she does... *I want her regardless. Why can't she do the same?* Why do we have to play these games all the time? I am who I am. I'm not a bastard... I'm a decent human being. I'm still the same man she married. Just carry on loving me for what I am. I'm doing it. Why can't you? Why do I have to become a different person?


You're the one playing a game. If you want her, go to her. Sending a "message" and the waiting is a game - a timid, self protective game.

Successful people don't work from the reality they WISH they had. They work from the reality they ACTUALLY have. The bolded is your refusal to accept that. You cannot control her.

So you can operate within your actual reality, or you can continue to blame her for not being like you.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> You're the one playing a game. If you want her, go to her. Sending a "message" and the waiting is a game - a timid, self protective game.
> 
> Successful people don't work from the reality they WISH they had. They work from the reality they ACTUALLY have. The bolded is your refusal to accept that. You cannot control her.
> 
> So you can operate within your actual reality, or *you can continue to blame her for not being like you*.



You see, I'm not blaming her. I'm asking myself why things have to be so complicated. I'm a simple man. I don't like games. I don't want to change myself. I haven't changed. Now I have to change to keep her? I'm not doing it. If she doesn't like me anymore, so be it.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Then don't play games. Don't put it on her when you know she won't act.

YOU are making it complicated.

Or is it just a stubborn refusal to change on your part?

If you would rather be sexless than more assertive, that is on YOU!


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> Then don't play games. Don't put it on her when you know she won't act.
> 
> YOU are making it complicated.
> 
> ...



I'm already sexless... I was talking in general... :smile2:


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

In Absentia said:


> yes, but... I like my wife as she is... sometimes fat, sometimes pregnant, sometimes slim... I don't mind how she is, what she is, what she does... I want her regardless. Why can't she do the same?


Two main reasons:

1. She is not you. She is a different person. You want her regardless. She does't want you "regardless". Doesn't make you better and her worse. Just different.
2. She is female. You are male. You have spontaneous desire fairly often. She may, like many women, only rarely have spontaneous desire. Mostly she has responsive desire. If you decide to hide your feelings of desire to protect your ego, it isn't her fault that she has nothing to respond to.

Look, I am in the same predicament. I sympathize with you. But pretending you don't know why she is the way she is and playing the passive victim is not going to get you or @Frustrated_Hubby what you guys claim you want.



> Why do we have to play these games all the time?


Because you are not willing to be open and honest with her.



> I am who I am. I'm not a bastard... I'm a decent human being. I'm still the same man she married. Just carry on loving me for what I am. I'm doing it. Why can't you? Why do I have to become a different person?


Because she wants her husband to be different than you are. Might be that she wants something different than she did before. Or that she thought you would grow in a certain direction and you grew differently than she expected.

Decent is not enough. It simply isn't. Women don't lust for decent. They lust for something more or something different than all the other stinky hairy pig men put on offer. If the best you can say for yourself is that you haven't killed anyone recently and you haven't cheated, that may get you a continuing marriage. But it doesn't make your wife hot for you.

Hey, I wish it made my wife hot for me. I feel your pain. But it is what it is and we can rant and rave all day (I have been doing it for years), but it will not change reality.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Holdingontoit said:


> Two main reasons:
> 
> 1. She is not you. She is a different person. You want her regardless. She does't want you "regardless". Doesn't make you better and her worse. Just different.
> 2. She is female. You are male. You have spontaneous desire fairly often. She may, like many women, only rarely have spontaneous desire. Mostly she has responsive desire. If you decide to hide your feelings of desire to protect your ego, it isn't her fault that she has nothing to respond to.
> ...



well, I never played games, this is probably why my marriage hasn't really worked out... I have my faults, but if I'm not enough the way I am, so be it...


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Yeah learned helplessness is one of the biggest Lobito killers out there. Pity parties rank a close 2nd.


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

In Absentia said:


> well, I never played games, this is probably why my marriage hasn't really worked out... I have my faults, but if I'm not enough the way I am, so be it...


It's a romantic relationship. The entire thing is a giant stupid game. Push and pull. Give and take. The game is going on whether you are playing or not. Don't want to play? Then take your ball and go home, but don't get on the internet and complain when everyone else is still on the field having fun.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

Same old, same old. Nothing changes in these low/high drive conflicts threads. We human beings want what we want, but only if it comes easy - but not enough to really work hard at it! If it's worth having - it's worth the work to get it. 

Frustrated hubby - I am going to be blunt with my take on your situation. Your wife is not sexually attracted to you! She loves you in a platonic way - but you are not getting her juices flowing any more. Plain and simple. She most likely has a responsive drive - and you are not giving her what her body or mind needs to get that drive started, Yet she loves you, recognizes she has to have sex with you to keep the marriage - and so is somewhat trying - with the minimum effort she thinks is necessary to keep you married to her. Sex is on her terms, The lower drive spouse is the gate keeper - that's just how it works in most cases. She doesn't have a problem with not having sex more than you are having it now. I think she would probably prefer it less than you are having it now. YOU are the one with the problem - the one who wants it more - and wants more variety - so it's up to you to figure out how to get her cooperation and participation in solving YOUR problem, hopefully in a way that keeps you both happy and satisfied in this marriage. 

Here are your options in a nutshell - 
1. Keep doing what you are doing and have been doing to get her to change - but realize that you are probably just going to get the same poor results!

2. Accept things as they are now, stop trying to get her to change, appreciate the efforts she has made and any she makes in the future, and learn to be happy and satisfied with what she is willing to give you. It may not be what you want or need - but it's a lot better than those who are getting less or aren't getting any at all.

3. Try harder to figure out what her body responds to AND what makes you sexually attractive to her - both physically and emotionally. (When I say try harder - I mostly mean - try different things that you have not tried before. Don't keep doing what you know already does not work) Then implement those changes! You have to figure out how to make yourself more sexually attractive to her - both physically and/or emotionally - so that she is willing to open up to you emotionally and WANTS to be more physically sexual with you! - Some things to look at: Are you Alpha and/pr Beta at the right times? Have you done research on women's bodies and have a good understanding on how they respond sexually, how their hormones affect them, how their brains affect them, and how their bodies respond and react very differently than men's bodies? Does she read romance books or watch romantic movies ? if so that can clue you on what behaviors she might gravitate towards? Are you listening to the men who are high drive AND are getting what they need sexually from their long term monogamous marriages? f so - are you trying their suggestions? 

Don't expect her to tell you what she needs you to do - cause she probably doesn't know herself? Do listen to her and read the signals when she tells you what does NOT work. it's going to be on you to do most of the work in figuring this out and changing yourself - because YOU want the change, she doesn't! But eventually she does need to willingly cooperate and participate in order for you to succeed in improving your sexual relationship. You may have to get some professional help with this (sex or sexologist). Making lasting changes will not be easy and will not happen quickly It will take a lot of time, and work from you first and then from her, and then from both of you working together, Be patient and fully understand that you have to make LASTING changes in you first, if you hope to see any changes come from her, These changes should make you a better husband, father, and a sexier man in the long run - so will not be a waste, even if she does not respond to them.

Also you should understand going in- that there are no guarantees that she will change no matter what you do. Understand that it's her choice to change herself - her choice to cooperate and work with you. If she has a lot of deep issues and/or resentment towards you built up - she may not be able to allow herself to be attracted to you - no matter what you do! If you finally figure it out and she decides to change too - wonderful - your sex life should improve greatly. If you can't figure it out - or she refuses to cooperate and change - refer back to #2 or #4. 

4. Decide that her not changing and that this area of your marriage not improving is a deal breaker for you. Then end the marriage and try to find someone else who can and will meet your needs and desires sexually.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

As a normal healthy woman and a woman who used to be in a sexless marriage, I recommend option for. If a woman has responsive desire Kama that is not some get out of jail free card that allows her to abdicate all of her responsibility. This is just more of the idea that everything is up to the man. I wouldn't put up with it.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

dadstartingover said:


> It's a romantic relationship. The entire thing is a giant stupid game. Push and pull. Give and take. The game is going on whether you are playing or not. Don't want to play? Then take your ball and go home, but don't get on the internet and complain when everyone else is still on the field having fun.


In fact, I have taken the ball and have gone home. Nobody is playing any more... :laugh:


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> Yeah learned helplessness is one of the biggest Lobito killers out there. Pity parties rank a close 2nd.


I didn't need to kill my wife's libido... she killed it herself with the pills...


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

In Absentia said:


> In fact, I have taken the ball and have gone home. Nobody is playing any more... :laugh:


If you take your ball and go home, you don;t get to complain about the state of the court.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> If you take your ball and go home, you don;t get to complain about the state of the court.


who says? :laugh:

The game finished months ago. The court is shut and has been abandoned... up for sale.


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## Frustrated_Hubby (Mar 22, 2018)

mary35 said:


> Same old, same old. Nothing changes in these low/high drive conflicts threads. We human beings want what we want, but only if it comes easy - but not enough to really work hard at it! If it's worth having - it's worth the work to get it.
> 
> Frustrated hubby - I am going to be blunt with my take on your situation. Your wife is not sexually attracted to you! She loves you in a platonic way - but you are not getting her juices flowing any more. Plain and simple. She most likely has a responsive drive - and you are not giving her what her body or mind needs to get that drive started, Yet she loves you, recognizes she has to have sex with you to keep the marriage - and so is somewhat trying - with the minimum effort she thinks is necessary to keep you married to her. Sex is on her terms, The lower drive spouse is the gate keeper - that's just how it works in most cases. She doesn't have a problem with not having sex more than you are having it now. I think she would probably prefer it less than you are having it now. YOU are the one with the problem - the one who wants it more - and wants more variety - so it's up to you to figure out how to get her cooperation and participation in solving YOUR problem, hopefully in a way that keeps you both happy and satisfied in this marriage.
> 
> ...



I totally agree with everything stated here. I know that she is not attracted to me, even though she states otherwise. I believe that she knows it too. I need to work on me, I know that as well. I have stopped pushing for, asking for, or otherwise initiating anything sexual with her. Am right now, I am ok with that. I still get a hug and kiss most mornings. I don't chase her anymore. Thanks for the help so far.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Frustrated_Hubby said:


> I totally agree with everything stated here. I know that she is not attracted to me, even though she states otherwise. I believe that she knows it too. I need to work on me, I know that as well. I have stopped pushing for, asking for, or otherwise initiating anything sexual with her. Am right now, I am ok with that. I still get a hug and kiss most mornings. I don't chase her anymore. Thanks for the help so far.



You might be lucky, you might be not. I totally avoided the "change for the better" and "work on yourself" BS. In my opinion, when your wife is not attracted to you anymore, it's too late. You will find that by detaching you will be sending the wrong signal. You are not interested anymore. And this will reinforce your wife's opinion: that you don't care. So, she will reassured that she has made the right choice. Of course she will say that she cares about you, but that's where it finishes. I wish I didn't waste years trying to reignite something that was dead. Give it a time limit: 6 months and, if nothing changes, it will be the time to pack your bags. I know, soul-destroying, but it's out of your hands.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

mary35 said:


> 2. Accept things as they are now, stop trying to get her to change, appreciate the efforts she has made and any she makes in the future, and learn to be happy and satisfied with what she is willing to give you. It may not be what you want or need - but it's a lot better than those who are getting less or aren't getting any at all.


This ^^^ would be my plan. This is what I did. We compromised and we were having sex twice a month. I wanted it once a week. But it was this or divorcing and I wanted to stay, also for the kids. But now she has stopped sex altogether, so I'm out. Rather sad, but it's her decision. At 55, it will be difficult to rebuild my life.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

In Absentia said:


> This ^^^ would be my plan. This is what I did. We compromised and we were having sex twice a month. I wanted it once a week. But it was this or divorcing and I wanted to stay, also for the kids. But now she has stopped sex altogether, so I'm out. Rather sad, but it's her decision. At 55, it will be difficult to rebuild my life.


Does she care if you get it on the side from someone else? I'm not advocating this route, just curious where her thinking is at. Does I'm out mean you are divorcing her?


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

personofinterest said:


> As a normal healthy woman and a woman who used to be in a sexless marriage, I recommend option for. If a woman has responsive desire Kama that is not some get out of jail free card that allows her to abdicate all of her responsibility. This is just more of the idea that everything is up to the man. I wouldn't put up with it.


And that may be what OP decides one day. I agree with what you said, and if the wife were here posting, my response to her would be different than my response to her husband. But she's not here, he is - because he is the one with the problem. My answer to him focused on what he has control of - his own actions, not hers.

There are.always things we can do to be a better spouse, a better parent, a better lover, a better person. If OP works to better himself, how can that be a bad thing? I have seen so many men (and women) get divorced and their first actions are to lose weight, work out, etc. Some of them are smart enough to get counseling to work on their inner issues too. Many do this to help restore their self esteem, and also to make themselves more attractive for the dating scene. They want to look their best and have others see their good sides. Why do we not worry about being attractive to our spouses once we are married? Shouldn't we try to be our best, give our best, look out best - for the one we chose to love and be with for life?


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

mary35 said:


> Does she care if you get it on the side from someone else? I'm not advocating this route, just curious where her thinking is at. Does I'm out mean you are divorcing her?


She's told me I can get sex somewhere else. This is not what I want and I'm sure not what she wants. But she can't get over a very bad patch we had about 10 years ago, when I was angry for the lack of sex and the no communication on her behalf. She claims I have ruined sex for her and she can't get over it. We were having a very good patch (well the last 5 years) and this has come out from nowhere. Because she thinks it's my fault, I believe she also expects me to "take it" and stay in a sexless marriage. But I can't. I have apologised many times to no avail. So we will be divorcing next year when my little one flies the nest.


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## DjDjani (Feb 10, 2018)

Go neutral for a month. If she doesnt initiate sex ten tell her that you need sex and bj in your marriage and if she is not going to give that to you,you will br forsed to find another solution. Then if she still doesnt do it,file for divorce. Maybe than she will se what is she doing to you,or not. if not,go through divorce. Simple.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

DjDjani said:


> Go neutral for a month. If she doesnt initiate sex ten tell her that you need sex and bj in your marriage and if she is not going to give that to you,you will br forsed to find another solution. Then if she still doesnt do it,file for divorce. Maybe than she will se what is she doing to you,or not. if not,go through divorce. Simple.


REALLY?

This woman hasn't given OP a blowjob in 22 years, and you think it's a good idea for him to say to her either she does, or else?


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## Frustrated_Hubby (Mar 22, 2018)

It has been almost 2 weeks since we had sex. I have been working on me. I don't know if I should say something to her about it. I don't know if I should wait more or just grab her by the hand, drag her to bed and rip her clothes off. Leaning toward the latter.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Frustrated_Hubby said:


> It has been almost 2 weeks since we had sex. I have been working on me. I don't know if I should say something to her about it. I don't know if I should wait more or just grab her by the hand, drag her to bed and rip her clothes off. Leaning toward the latter.


This is what happened with me... I left it and we didn't have sex for a month until I caved in... she was happy not to having it. Every time i used this strategy, I would never have sex... :laugh:


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Frustrated_Hubby said:


> It has been almost 2 weeks since we had sex. I have been working on me. I don't know if I should say something to her about it. I don't know if I should wait more or just grab her by the hand, drag her to bed and rip her clothes off. Leaning toward the latter.


You working on you is a lifelong task. Hit the gym. Rock it at work. Do not waste any time or energy thinking about her. If you cross paths, smile and be pleasant. If she puts the moves on you for sex, by all means accept her offer.

Only drag her to bed when you are ready to divorce if she refuses to have sex.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Frustrated_Hubby said:


> It has been almost 2 weeks since we had sex. I have been working on me. I don't know if I should say something to her about it. I don't know if I should wait more or just grab her by the hand, drag her to bed and rip her clothes off. Leaning toward the latter.


I think you'll be waiting until the cows come home if you are expecting her to initiate something. She clearly doesn't want or need a frequent sex life.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Just to clarify up front, I give my husband BJ. That out of the way, Hubs and I have had a lot of sex conversations and in those explorations, I asked him "What is it about BJ that feels different and what exactly do you like about it?"

So, he described that for me and then I asked, kind of a philosophical question.

"Is the orgasm better?"

"Not really."

"So, an orgasm is an orgasm?"

"Yeah. Oh. I see what you mean."

So, my honest question for you fellas is: If you are achieving an orgasm with your wife...does it matter how that is achieved? Is doggy style or BJ (where there is no pressure on her clit and she is doing this completely just for your pleasure), what exactly is it about each of these acts that makes them such an attraction that you would long for them? In the end, if an orgasm is pleasurable PIV, hand job, blowjob, doggy style - what is it about longing for the acts that are not going to achieve an orgasm for her that makes them so attractive? 

Remember, this is an honest question...I am asking because I'm not a guy and I seek to understand why cumming in your wife's mouth or shoving it into her from behind while she's kneeling with her back to you brings you pleasure. (Sorry if my delivery is crude here but I don't know how else to describe these acts...when this happens to us, my visual viewpoint is different than his.)


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Frustrated_Hubby said:


> It has been almost 2 weeks since we had sex. I have been working on me. I don't know if I should say something to her about it. I don't know if I should wait more or just grab her by the hand, drag her to bed and rip her clothes off. Leaning toward the latter.


Oh, heavens, friend, don't ever be shy about talking to your wife. Communication is vital. You're an adult man and capable of a forthright, mature conversation and having a stable self-esteem. Women who shy away from a discussion where a man is expressing a concern about their sex life - and he is doing so in a mature, reasonable manner (which isn't that difficult), ought to consider themselves dang lucky that they have a guy who gives a crap - not only about her but about their sex life. There's plenty of people out there in this world who have NO ONE - and men and women who have couple hood have something really awesome, a real treasure.

You have every right and responsibility to talk to your wife about whatever is on your mind. You are in this really close relationship where both of you are very vulnerable and probably know things about each other that no one else in the world will ever know. That relationship must have a deep enough trust and love that you feel like you can be open and honest with each other. 

Foster that concept. If there is something in the way of the two of you having that trust and openness, possibly enlist the help of a REALLY GOOD professional. You BOTH deserve to have the very best that marriage has to offer.


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## WildMustang (Nov 7, 2017)

happiness27 said:


> So, my honest question for you fellas is: If you are achieving an orgasm with your wife...does it matter how that is achieved? Is doggy style or BJ (where there is no pressure on her clit and she is doing this completely just for your pleasure), what exactly is it about each of these acts that makes them such an attraction that you would long for them? In the end, if an orgasm is pleasurable PIV, hand job, blowjob, doggy style - what is it about longing for the acts that are not going to achieve an orgasm for her that makes them so attractive?
> 
> Remember, this is an honest question...I am asking because I'm not a guy and I seek to understand why cumming in your wife's mouth or shoving it into her from behind while she's kneeling with her back to you brings you pleasure. (Sorry if my delivery is crude here but I don't know how else to describe these acts...when this happens to us, my visual viewpoint is different than his.)


I am a woman who has also wondered and asked this question of many men, both men I have been intimate with and not been intimate with. From both their answers and my own observations, 

My understanding is:

It makes men feel "wanted" and "desired."

It makes men feel "seen" and "known."

It makes men feel "accepted."

It makes men feel "loved." (And it helps cement his love for his woman.)

It makes men feel "cherished" and "adored."

It makes men feel "respected."

It makes men feel "admired."

It makes men feel "vulnerable" which helps increase "intimacy."

It makes men feel "connected" to his woman.

It helps men "relax and surrender." (They get to turn off and let go.)

Also, for some men, there is the whole BDSM submission thing.

Last but not least, it feels amazing.

For some women, (such as myself), we also get a *LOT* of pleasure out of giving oral sex and doggy (physically, emotionally, psychologically, spiritually) Perhaps as much or more than the man gets.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

The simple answer is that for me, yes it makes a huge difference.

If all I wanted was an orgasm, I can take care of myself in a few minutes. Most women can do so as well. But most people seek out and enjoy partner sex because it isn't really the O that matters.

For me, different sexual acts have different modes - from romantic and loving, to playful, to passionate to dominant / submissive. Some acts (Oral especially) can be different depending on attitudes and how they are done - is she "taking" sex from him, "serving" him, lovingly pleasuring him?

I like variety in sex - not just of the physical actions, but of the mood. 

As far as a BJ not providing pleasure to the giver, I think many women would disagree. It usually doesn't provide an O, but for many people (myself included), giving your partner oral and watching / hearing / feeling them get wildly aroused, is extremely arousing in itself. I wouldn't want an evening of sex to only be my giving oral, but it is something I very much enjoy doing (not a chore), as *part* of a range of sexual activities. 

Separate from that, sometimes giving a sexual "gift" can be fun, as long as it is reciprocated. Just doing something to please your partner can be great - in the sort of relationship where sometimes they do that for you. (gifts are great as long as they are balanced).

Beyond that, many sexual desires are irrational - its like asking why someone enjoys a particular type of music. I enjoy receiving oral, but I couldn't say exactly why. Its more psychological than physical. 







happiness27 said:


> Just to clarify up front, I give my husband BJ. That out of the way, Hubs and I have had a lot of sex conversations and in those explorations, I asked him "What is it about BJ that feels different and what exactly do you like about it?"
> 
> So, he described that for me and then I asked, kind of a philosophical question.
> 
> ...


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## aaarghdub (Jul 15, 2017)

happiness27 said:


> So, my honest question for you fellas is: If you are achieving an orgasm with your wife...does it matter how that is achieved?



Obviously each man is different and it’s about variety... same for the wife. 

It’s like asking if you’re hungry and eat something... does it matter what and where it came from?

Personally, BJ with HJ finish (DW doesn’t want to be near the result) feels best and has a “this is for you” feeling. Right amount of lube and pressure. Pure HJ can seem obligatory (the least a woman could do) but depends on technique. In my case, I get 50/50 ejaculation without orgasm because the grip or technique is off. Tried to offer constructive feedback and that didn’t go over well. Stinks ‘cause she loves getting her g-spot massaged manually at the same time. PIV is more about closeness but for me, she’s often too wet to get optimal feel. We usually are able to finish together that way which I like.








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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

aaarghdub said:


> happiness27 said:
> 
> 
> > So, my honest question for you fellas is: If you are achieving an orgasm with your wife...does it matter how that is achieved?
> ...


Wow...that's new information. I didn't realize a woman could be too wet for optimal feel. Somewhat sad about that...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> Just to clarify up front, I give my husband BJ. That out of the way, Hubs and I have had a lot of sex conversations and in those explorations, I asked him "What is it about BJ that feels different and what exactly do you like about it?"
> 
> So, he described that for me and then I asked, kind of a philosophical question.
> 
> ...



That’s a bit presumptuous  She usually comes pretty hard from PIV with no pressure on clit whatsoever and she described that that type of orgasm feels very different from clit one. The former is more like waves through the whole body while the latter is more concentrated in one area. (Both good but different apparently).

For me, yes for sure it matters how. We don’t like to be ‘short changed’ with a half-arsed HJ/BJ  It’s not just the how but also where. I get bored having sex in the bedroom for example. Or doing it the same way every day. Variety is important to me. Whereas to wife, psychology is more important. Things like domination, fear, pain etc can enhance it for her much more than pure technique. I don’t know why (and can’t really relate to it) but it does.



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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> happiness27 said:
> 
> 
> > Just to clarify up front, I give my husband BJ. That out of the way, Hubs and I have had a lot of sex conversations and in those explorations, I asked him "What is it about BJ that feels different and what exactly do you like about it?"
> ...


Ah, what she is describing must be like orgasms my husband can have without ejaculating. He can have multiples of these and they are very pleasurable but they are different from a full ejaculating orgasm. 

Think of a clit as the penis tip. That's where the most nerve endings are.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> Ah, what she is describing must be like orgasms my husband can have without ejaculating.




Come again? 
I presume your husband is a man? How can he have an orgasm without ejaculating? 


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> happiness27 said:
> 
> 
> > Ah, what she is describing must be like orgasms my husband can have without ejaculating.
> ...


It takes a lot of practice but he learned the technique from a book called How To Make Love All Night. Orgasm for men can be separated from ejaculation if you learn the technique. Its pretty wild.

I think you'll have to google it because I don't want to appear to advertising a product. The book explains everything and has exercises for how practice and achieve this. Once a guy gets the technique down, he can then progress to working with his lover. Probably the most erotic thing we do together.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> It takes a lot of practice but he learned the technique from a book called How To Make Love All Night. Orgasm for men can be separated from ejaculation if you learn the technique. Its pretty wild.



Thinking about it makes my balls hurt ...
Why did he feel it was necessary to learn this? Are you that insatiable? 


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> happiness27 said:
> 
> 
> > It takes a lot of practice but he learned the technique from a book called How To Make Love All Night. Orgasm for men can be separated from ejaculation if you learn the technique. Its pretty wild.
> ...


Dude, it's absolutely amazing.

We stumbled upon the book at one of our favorite old bookstores. I'm a big believer in serendipity. I scanned some of the pages and walked over and showed it to him behind the stacks. 

Look, it was fun and erotic just finding the book...but then we were, like, what the neck? Its written by a sex therapist.

You think it didn't blow his mind to find out it worked? 

Who WOULDN'T want multiple orgasms?

Get the book and burn it if you don't like it. But...yeah, its real.

It teaches you how to take yourself to a level 9 before orgasm and hold it there wth your mind before you ejaculate and you experience the orgasm but because you don't ejaculate, you don't lose the erection and you can go again quickly. It puts you in control of deciding when to ejaculate...which will then be the ejaculating orgasm.

What he has described us that the earlier orgasms are full body, like you said your wife describes.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Thinking about it makes my balls hurt ...
> Why did he feel it was necessary to learn this? Are you that insatiable?


We learned how to do this long ago (based on a book gifted to me by a prior girlfriend). It's a way for men to be multi-orgasmic, and make things last longer for both partners if they wish - the man chooses when to ejaculate, but can have multiple orgasms in the meantime. It was fun learning and applying, but it wasn't that useful for me, as (back then) I had a very short refractory period. Hmm - it may be more useful to relearn now that I'm much older ....


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> Dude, it's absolutely amazing.
> 
> We stumbled upon the book at one of our favorite old bookstores. I'm a big believer in serendipity. I scanned some of the pages and walked over and showed it to him behind the stacks.
> 
> ...



Ok, I guess this is going to be my next challenge to master 
As long as it doesn’t involve sticking anything inside the urethra or tying my balls into a knot, I am up for it...
Although I don’t have the problem anymore of PE, in my third decade.
Are you sure he is having an actual orgasm? And it’s not edging? Have any other guys here managed to do this? I didn’t think there was a mechanism to come independently from ejaculate.  How strange.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

100% organic, no gimmicks, toys or torture.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

A woman who is teased and brought to as many orgasms as she wants will much more enjoy backdoor or BJ as a finale. Her excitement level is very high at this point. Multiple orgasmic men have a great advantage in making this happen.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

happiness27 said:


> Just to clarify up front, I give my husband BJ. That out of the way, Hubs and I have had a lot of sex conversations and in those explorations, I asked him "What is it about BJ that feels different and what exactly do you like about it?"
> 
> So, he described that for me and then I asked, kind of a philosophical question.
> 
> ...


Yes it matters to me, since I like variety. Of which having greater variety, my wife and I find that sex often remains exciting as a consequence of having a broad repertoire to draw from.

That said I can't say I have ever longed for such acts. Since without restraint I have always enjoyed, a rich smorgasbord of sexual activities with all of my sexual partners.



happiness27 said:


> Remember, this is an honest question...I am asking because I'm not a guy and I seek to understand why cumming in your wife's mouth or shoving it into her from behind while she's kneeling with her back to you brings you pleasure. (Sorry if my delivery is crude here but I don't know how else to describe these acts...when this happens to us, my visual viewpoint is different than his.)


Well cumming in my wife's mouth or taking her from behind while she is kneeling, is simply a pleasurable experience.

Having my wife on her knees while I take her anally or vaginally from behind, feels terrific physically. Since I find it significantly more stimulating to my penis than other positions.

Then there is the added dimension of visual stimulation. Where I enjoy seeing my penis slide in and out of her vagina. I especially like how part of her skin slides backwards and forwards in and out, with each thrust. While I like holding her anus open for the sight. Plus the sight of my penis entering her and then withdrawing completely, to reveal her gaping vagina, rectum or both is also a pleasurable experience.

Alternatively I also enjoy the visual of inserting a finger, thumb, several fingers or a butt-plug and the like into her anus, while my penis is inside her vagina. Which is also of benefit physically, since I can stroke my penis through her anus as her skin is thin between them.

Plus having her on her knees for penis in anus sex, it is effectively the same in terms of pleasures. While it is also worth noting she and I have easy access to fiddle with the tip of her clitoris as desired as well.

The same applies to taking her from behind, anally or vaginally while spooning with her on her side. With the exception being I loose the visual of looking at her pink bits in action at the time.

In addition to that I am also aroused by having my wife, like she is a snorting animal. Where I enjoy having my way with her for my pleasure, with her presenting herself for me to take her from behind.

As to this idea that women don't get pleasure from being taken from behind either vaginally or anally. That is certainly not true of all women.

My wife can have orgasms quite readily through penis in vagina sex, oral sex and digital and phallic stimulation.

Plus although very rare for her, as it turns out and it was a surprise. She can also orgasm through anal sex as well, with the first time being this year.

One of the other pleasures I have of taking my wife vaginally from behind, while she is on her knees. Is that I like how her orgasm feels around my penis, with a lesser strength throbbing and tilting felt around my penis. While with a digit or digits in her rectum, I feel the very rapid pulsating vibrations through her rectum with the very rapid puckering and twitching of her anus entrance that happen when she orgasms.

My wife likes being taken from behind, because it feels good physically and she does sometimes orgasm from that direction. Plus she feels wild, carnal and animalistic doing it that way, which is exciting for her sexually. While she also finds it exciting that she presents herself to me, and I take her for my sexual pleasure.

As to getting oral sex from my wife that is mostly for me, except to say my wife gets sexually aroused by doing that to me. With her vagina doing its bit, to prepare her for sexual penetration.

I enjoy the sensation of oral sex done well. I also like the visual of it, especially how at some points my wife drools over my penis while doing it. I enjoy how her tongue works underneath my tip. Plus it's nice how she takes her balls in my mouth, simply for the fact she does it.

Then on top of that part of oral sex from her, I find it particularly nice how she lubes a finger or two and works my anus and will massage my prostate while giving me a blow job. Then there's the fact she will sometimes rim me with her tongue on her own initiative or on my guidance. Which feels nice physically and is quite stimulating psychologically, for the taboo nature of her being cool with sticking her tongue in my anus.

Then there is the pleasure of cumming in her mouth or all over her face in a big sloppy mess. Plus when it goes in her mouth I like how she holds me in her mouth and holds the cum. Then she'll either show me, swallow it or let it drool out down her mouth or onto her boobs etc and then sometimes waits for me to take a pic of her so covered. Then to finish I occasionally wash my cum off her face, by peeing on her face, boobs and in her mouth (we're not a sexually vanilla couple).

That said I don't get hand jobs, because I think they're boring and lame so we don't go there.

The thing is though her giving me blow jobs is not a one sided thing for my pleasure alone. Since she feels sexual excitement from it, especially if it is out of the ordinary, or perhaps a risqué thing like when she did me in a car park at a lake.

Plus at the end of the day, oral sex on her is a common thing as well.

All combined with her orgasming more often than not. Via her receiving penetrative sex, oral sex or manual stimulation via a digit, digits or on limited occasion using my whole hand (fisting).

For her orgasm, I find it quite easy to get her there. Most often via variations of missionary. With some back door digital penetration and some nipple biting, as she nears the tip over point sometimes thrown in as well.

Or alternatively via oral sex, while cheating to get her there. Since I often have a finger up her backside to tell me, when she is drawing closer to orgasm or away from orgasm and to know when she starts to tip over into orgasm.

Plus she also finds it quite stimulating to have me do a come here motion with my finger. Inside her rectum, pulling towards her vagina while giving her oral sex. Saying she often has quite intense orgasms, when I do that to her.

One thing we don't use though is vibrators, although we have tried them my wife doesn't like them since they make her feel numb very quickly.

At the end of the day if we seldom varied what we do together sexually. I am pretty sure both of us after 22+ years of being together, would be very bored of the sex we share together.

Other fun facts include my wife squirted once, early into our relationship. Of which it embarrassed and surprised her. It also definitely wasn't coincident with an orgasm, we think it was pee despite the fact it didn't smell like it or feel like it. As it turns out for her it can happen leading up to an orgasm, yet it doesn't coincide with it, nor is it an indication of it.

Likewise she has also experienced seeing coloured lights around me during sex, which was Synesthesia. It was funny on the first occasion, since she asked me if I could see the colours that had appeared everywhere, when nothing changed for me.

In my experience I have found women to mostly have an almost insatiable sex drive (I know that doesn't apply to everyone). Where they are very willing, very wanton, very lustful and extremely carnal and animalistic in their sexual wants and desires.

That said it isn't about longing for acts that don't stimulate my wife, in fact so much of what we share is always about stimulating each other. Yet that doesn't mean we both have to orgasm at the same time (which is not uncommon during penetrative sex) as each other or always reciprocally, when giving or receiving oral sex.

Although what we do is certainly not everyone's cup of tea and there is much more. I have found variations of that kind of thing, has been enjoyed by all of my most significant previous sexual partners.

I hope that answers your question.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Blimey... :grin2:


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Married but Happy said:


> We learned how to do this long ago (based on a book gifted to me by a prior girlfriend). It's a way for men to be multi-orgasmic, and make things last longer for both partners if they wish - the man chooses when to ejaculate, but can have multiple orgasms in the meantime. It was fun learning and applying, but it wasn't that useful for me, as (back then) I had a very short refractory period. Hmm - it may be more useful to relearn now that I'm much older ....


I never read it in books. However a combination of experience and control from frequent masturbation, dumb luck and an enormous amount of rich experience with the girl who became my first wife when I was 17-19.

I found out I could naturally control my orgasm, could orgasm more than once and could control whether I ejaculated or not when I orgasmed. Plus I could also limit the amount of ejaculation to some degree so I could splat her a few times in close succession.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

badsanta said:


> [MENTION=322802]However if in the heat of the moment you get all awkward and fall off the edge of the bed while moving into a different position with a cramp in your leg, it is not going to work out that well.


Yep, because cramp is a killer. :crying:


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## BigDigg (Jan 11, 2018)

WildMustang said:


> I am a woman who has also wondered and asked this question of many men, both men I have been intimate with and not been intimate with. From both their answers and my own observations,
> 
> My understanding is:
> 
> ...


Super interesting - most all the reasons you listed have nothing to do with the pure physical feeling or achieving orgasm. Probably a surprise but we're often quiet emotional about these things, even for certain acts that might not seem that way. Which is why it's absolutely crippling for either men or women when their partner ignores them or shuts them out. 

Us men are truly deep and profoundly fascinating beings. Bet you didn't know...


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Personal said:


> Yes it matters to me, since I like variety. Of which having greater variety, my wife and I find that sex often remains exciting as a consequence of having a broad repertoire to draw from.
> 
> That said I can't say I have ever longed for such acts. Since without restraint I have always enjoyed, a rich smorgasbord of sexual activities with all of my sexual partners.
> 
> ...


You should write a book. Seriously. You have a much fuller understanding and application of sexual arousal and desire. Women really are just as sexual of creatures for a partner who recognizes and exploits that with confidence in a highly compatible matchup.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> Just to clarify up front, I give my husband BJ. That out of the way, Hubs and I have had a lot of sex conversations and in those explorations, I asked him "What is it about BJ that feels different and what exactly do you like about it?"
> 
> So, he described that for me and then I asked, kind of a philosophical question.
> 
> ...


Of course, and naturally, this ignores the OBVIOUS major point that my husband LIKES the BJ. I cannot imagine telling my husband that "an orgasm is an orgasm", as iff he doesn;t get a say about what he likes.

How dismissive.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Also worth mentioning that what people like varies a LOT. Some just like oral as a starter, other like to finish that way, some like to mix it up. I don't think that there is any simple rules. 

Its sort of strange though, some people don't listen to what their partners tell them they like, but think that they know better. 




aaarghdub said:


> Obviously each man is different and it’s about variety... same for the wife.
> 
> It’s like asking if you’re hungry and eat something... does it matter what and where it came from?
> 
> ...


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

happiness27 said:


> So, my honest question for you fellas is: If you are achieving an orgasm with your wife...does it matter how that is achieved? Is doggy style or BJ (where there is no pressure on her clit and she is doing this completely just for your pleasure), what exactly is it about each of these acts that makes them such an attraction that you would long for them? In the end, if an orgasm is pleasurable PIV, hand job, blowjob, doggy style - what is it about longing for the acts that are not going to achieve an orgasm for her that makes them so attractive?
> 
> Remember, this is an honest question...I am asking because I'm not a guy and I seek to understand why cumming in your wife's mouth or shoving it into her from behind while she's kneeling with her back to you brings you pleasure. (Sorry if my delivery is crude here but I don't know how else to describe these acts...when this happens to us, my visual viewpoint is different than his.)


The amount of thought and effort my wife puts into pleasing me matters.

If your husband takes you out to dinner does it matter where you go as long as you're not hungry afterwards?


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> The amount of thought and effort my wife puts into pleasing me matters.
> 
> If your husband takes you out to dinner does it matter where you go as long as you're not hungry afterwards?


lol - my hubs and I talk about this from time to time so your metaphor is perfect. I hate wasting a good hunger on a Big Mac. Also, if I get a glass of water and he gets a steak, yeah, it matters. But I don't think that's what you're talking about.

I think sometimes I get this (wrong) impression that guys are talking about quicky blow jobs and doggie with no regard for their partner - and then expect their partner to be enthused about that. 

I'm actually fine with varieties like BJ and backdoor as long it's not the only thing that happens - because I don't have a clit in my mouth or inside my vagina.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I wonder how many men who post on TAM have said they want back door and quicky BJs all the time without having to do anything for their partner.....

I'm betting zero.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> because I don't have a clit in my mouth.



Why not? Add it to the repertoire. Bring a friend 




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## WildMustang (Nov 7, 2017)

BigDigg said:


> Super interesting - most all the reasons you listed have nothing to do with the pure physical feeling or achieving orgasm. Probably a surprise but we're often quiet emotional about these things, even for certain acts that might not seem that way. Which is why it's absolutely crippling for either men or women when their partner ignores them or shuts them out.
> 
> Us men are truly deep and profoundly fascinating beings. Bet you didn't know...


You'd lose that bet because I actually do know that men are truly deep and profoundly fascinating beings, but thanks for reminding me.

Not a surprise to me (can't speak for other women) that men are quite emotional about such things. Perhaps you have mistaken me for other women?

This was not an all inclusive list and I actually did mention, "last but not least, because it feels amazing."

Sorry if my post triggered you (or any other men) in any way. It was not meant to trigger anyone. I was just contributing what I have learned from the men I know who have opened up to me about the topic. I was not trying to speak for any man or all men. I can't because I am not a man. I can only convey my understanding from their sharing with me.

Best regards to you and yours!


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## BigDigg (Jan 11, 2018)

@WildMustang Sorry if I gave the impression I was attacking you. Wrote it with a smile on my face and not directed at you or anyone at all. Should have added a ton of :smile2:


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## WildMustang (Nov 7, 2017)

BigDigg said:


> @WildMustang Sorry if I gave the impression I was attacking you. Wrote it with a smile on my face and not directed at you or anyone at all. Should have added a ton of :smile2:


Thank you for the clarification, @BigDigg. I did not feel attacked. It just seemed from reading your response to my post that I may have stepped on your toes or triggered you in some way, which was not my intent at all. 

I am glad to know it did not and that we are good. :smile2:

Men truly are deeply and profoundly fascinating beings! :x


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Why not? Add it to the repertoire. Bring a friend
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was sure somebody was going to bring up Deep Throat...


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

happiness27 said:


> I think sometimes I get this (wrong) impression that guys are talking about quicky blow jobs and doggie with no regard for their partner - and then expect their partner to be enthused about that.


I think single guys who have multiple partners may be talking about quickie acts with little or no regard for reciprocation, but guys around here are talking about loving acts in a relationship. 

Having said that, there are a lot of women who enjoy at least occasionally a totally one way BJ for him where things are mainly focused on his pleasure for a quick ride. It can be really sexual and fun to do this (you probably already know). But like you said, if that’s his main desire (to be selfishly pleasured most of the time) then yeah, bleah.

But the guys around here aren’t talking about that.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

happiness27 said:


> I was sure somebody was going to bring up Deep Throat...


That's over in the post election thread


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## Dusk (Oct 29, 2018)

My husband prefers to finish with a BJ/HJ combo because it feels better to him. I can tease him a lot that way and build things up and then stop a few times which makes the final orgasm much more intense. 

So no, all orgasms are definitely not created equal. 


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Dusk said:


> My husband prefers to finish with a BJ/HJ combo because it feels better to him. I can tease him a lot that way and build things up and then stop a few times which makes the final orgasm much more intense.
> 
> So no, all orgasms are definitely not created equal.
> 
> ...


I can see where all the pre-orgasm activity can vary vastly. Just wondered if the actual orgasm is different between oral or PIV.


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## Dusk (Oct 29, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> I can see where all the pre-orgasm activity can vary vastly. Just wondered if the actual orgasm is different between oral or PIV.




I mean...yes? Because, as I said, of the possibility for more build up. I know my orgasms vary a lot and in general the ones I have from oral are stronger than the ones from PIV 


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I don't know how one would measure that. Does an orgasm feel the same if its is sitting alone using a vibrator or during passionate lovemaking with the person you are most attracted to in the world? I think the brain is too involved to know for sure - but I think it IS different in different situations. 




happiness27 said:


> I can see where all the pre-orgasm activity can vary vastly. Just wondered if the actual orgasm is different between oral or PIV.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

OP, how much do you know or have you tried to learn about the menopause? It might be worth educating yourself on this to actually understand what is happening with your wife instead of simply worrying about not getting yours!


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## Frustrated_Hubby (Mar 22, 2018)

aine said:


> OP, how much do you know or have you tried to learn about the menopause? It might be worth educating yourself on this to actually understand what is happening with your wife instead of simply worrying about not getting yours!




I have read quite a bit about it. I have discussed it. 

So last night we were planning on being intimate. She seemed ready and willing, then proceeded to turn away and fall asleep. Then again this morning it was more important to go do something else than a little making out. So. As you guys say she does not find me attractive anymore. She also knows that I am not going to leave so I guess that I make the best out of what i have. 

Probably going to get blasted for this post, but this is my last. Thanks for everything. I will check back for replies.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> Just to clarify up front, I give my husband BJ. That out of the way, Hubs and I have had a lot of sex conversations and in those explorations, I asked him "What is it about BJ that feels different and what exactly do you like about it?"
> 
> So, he described that for me and then I asked, kind of a philosophical question.
> 
> ...


Bj/HJ orgasms are stronger for me than PIV. I think it's mainly because I don't have to do any work and there is more pressure/sensation than PIV. 

My wife gets very wet when aroused (huge turn on for me) which dulls some of the sensation and of course her vajaja opens up as she gets aroused (another turn on for me) which dulls some of the sensation for both of us. With that being said, I almost always prefer PIV orgams. The intimate "ride" to orgasm is so much better and NOTHING feels as good as a hot, wet and soft vajaja to ME.

I have had 2 orgasms without ejaculating. It was the weirdest thing to orgasm but not find the ejaculate. I felt like the famous scene from Something About Mary (hair gel). 

Doggie for me is just for the visual stimulation. A woman's hips and ass are a huge visual turn on for me. I don't usually pick that position because I much more enjoy the intimacy of a position where we are facing each other. My favorite position as well as my wife's is plain old missionary. We don't have the strongest orgasms that way but the intimacy is so strong that it's our #1 go to. 

I think I've covered most of the various questions I've seen since page 9.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

> Bj/HJ orgasms are stronger for me than PIV. I think it's mainly because I don't have to do any work and there is more pressure/sensation than PIV.


My H has said the same thing.

And honestly, it really shouldn't be that hard to understand. Physiologically, a woman's orgasm from masturbation or oral are different because the spasms are not met with the resistance of a penis. Not to mention, she is absorbing the pleasure rather than working in tandem (like with intercourse).

We all know an orgasm is not just an orgasm. It varies depending on act and position.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

PigglyWiggly said:


> Bj/HJ orgasms are stronger for me than PIV. I think it's mainly because I don't have to do any work and there is more pressure/sensation than PIV.


My wife says the sensation of her orgasms feels the same. With the only variation being the duration of her orgasm, which makes it more intense when it lasts longer and less intense when it is shorter

She also finds that her orgasms effectively feel the same, regardless of whether she gets there via penatrative sex, oral sex or digital stimulation.

I find her orgasms from the internal pulsing, puckering, shuddering, tilting and gripping. Last longer than my orgasms, so I am envious of the duration of her experience.

My orgasms feel the same to me, although I get more intensity when I orgasm then hold back ejaculating and do that again before finally ejaculating with an orgasm. Which prolongs my experience and gives me more of it.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

Personal said:


> My wife says the sensation of her orgasms feels the same. With the only variation being the duration of her orgasm, which makes it more intense when it lasts longer and less intense when it is shorter
> 
> She also finds that her orgasms effectively feel the same, regardless of whether she gets there via penatrative sex, oral sex or digital stimulation.
> 
> ...


That's interesting and highlights how we are different. After relaying your wife's findings, I am going to ask my wife if her orgasms feel the same. I don't think they do but it's interesting to talk about.


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## BigDigg (Jan 11, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> I can see where all the pre-orgasm activity can vary vastly. Just wondered if the actual orgasm is different between oral or PIV.


As a guy who gets both (~70% PIV, 20% BJ 10% "Other" finish ratio or thereabouts), honestly not sure if the actual pure orgasm feeling itself is tremendously different. The feeling on my **** is definitely slightly different however. But you're right that the lead up to that couldn't be more different. In PIV as a guy there's a million things it seems to manage in my head and much more physical act. The orgasm has less build up and less control. With a BJ you can relax and indulge in the experience. Much more cerebral if you will. And that longer mental stimulation and build up can make a big difference when the fireworks go off. 

As a rule I don't particularly have a preference but day to day I might crave something specific.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

PigglyWiggly said:


> That's interesting and highlights how we are different. After relaying your wife's findings, I am going to ask my wife if her orgasms feel the same. I don't think they do but it's interesting to talk about.


For a time my wife thought the sensation was different, yet following thinking about it further. She said the only difference is the duration which feels more intense cumulatively as it rolls and pulses onward.

She also unsurprisingly finds the sensation starts from her genitals and then radiates throughout her body from there.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

These feedbacks are very interesting and helpful.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

BigDigg said:


> With a BJ you can relax and indulge in the experience. Much more cerebral if you will. And that longer mental stimulation and build up can make a big difference when the fireworks go off.
> 
> As a rule I don't particularly have a preference but day to day I might crave something specific.


Interesting details about the mental stimulation. I find mental stimulation wildly exciting so I get what you mean there.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

https://youtu.be/sbF-4LOOC5c


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

happiness27 said:


> Interesting details about the mental stimulation. I find mental stimulation wildly exciting so I get what you mean there.


I think this is the key element in another thread about where you discuss men having a toggle switch for getting aroused. It is all in the mind. Even arousal that builds over time is all in the mind but perhaps complimented with some hormonal urges. 

Unfortunately for the OP he likely can not compel his wife into mental stimulation. This is something that has to come from within. 

About the only thing he can do is introduce the "element of something unknown" and then make sure it stays a mystery. For example he could hide a remote vibrating device under the mattress and set it off so that his wife hears it, but can't tell where it is coming from. During this time he can pretend to be in a state of ecstasy and then turn it off and pretend as if nothing happened (since nothing actually happened). Then the wife will be curious to ask what just happened, and he can say "nothing!" Then just repeat randomly. If anything and he gets caught he can claim it was for a back massage while he goes to sleep. The vibrating device can even be something innocuous used for back massage (one of those things you put on the back of a chair that vibrates up and down your back). The point being is that she will think her husband is doing something extremely sexual, but yet not know what which will make her curious and perhaps create some mental stimulation from curiosity. 
@happiness27 try doing something like that with your husband! See how he reacts... 

Bad, 
Badsanta


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> https://youtu.be/sbF-4LOOC5c




Why is she wearing a tiger head gear and her armpit hair seems to be on her shoulders..?

It’s a bit weird watching elderly women laugh hysterically about sexual jokes and male stereotypes. Whatever turns them on I suppose...


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Why is she wearing a tiger head gear and her armpit hair seems to be on her shoulders..?
> 
> It’s a bit weird watching elderly women laugh hysterically about sexual jokes and male stereotypes. Whatever turns them on I suppose...
> 
> ...


Aside from disliking her looks, what did you think of her message?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> Aside from disliking her looks, what did you think of her message?




No I liked the look very much; she looked cute. I just couldn’t figure out whether or what the symbolism was etc.

Nothing wrong with the message. But why does she think that’s what guys or most guys are like? 

I remember quite a number of encounters in my not so distant youth, where I would spend ages kissing and caressing a girl in places that are unusual and off the beaten path, so to speak, and often then told: would you **** me already? 

I am not a big fan of generalised messages but I get the point that some men probably need to hear this. I just wasn’t sure why 98% of audience seemed to be females: what would THEY learn from it?


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> happiness27 said:
> 
> 
> > Aside from disliking her looks, what did you think of her message?
> ...


I noticed most of the audience was female also. So not sure about that...

And, unfortunately, yeah, a lot of guys need to hear this. At least that's been my experience. Its sort of why I didn't like single life. Most guys are pretty boring lovers and clueless how to drive a woman crazy. She described it perfectly, which was a relief because I thought it was just me and I was the only one who responded that way.

As for dating young ladies and doing heavy petting, dating a woman who probably isn't having sex a lot and who is primed to have sex anyway, it doesn't take as much effort.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> I noticed most of the audience was female also. So not sure about that...
> 
> And, unfortunately, yeah, a lot of guys need to hear this. At least that's been my experience. Its sort of why I didn't like single life. Most guys are pretty boring lovers and clueless how to drive a woman crazy. She described it perfectly, which was a relief because I thought it was just me and I was the only one who responded that way.
> 
> As for dating young ladies and doing heavy petting, dating a woman who probably isn't having sex a lot and who is primed to have sex anyway, it doesn't take as much effort.



I guess some stereo types are more true than others. I had the opposite problem, always trying to be too imaginative and some girls (who just wanted to get ****ed) lost interest.
But that’s also because I didn’t want to have sex with any girl, only the one I love. (And I was never religious, it just felt wrong).
Once a girl got so pissed for me refusing to screw her that she reported me for assaulting her. Another stereo type...


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> happiness27 said:
> 
> 
> > I noticed most of the audience was female also. So not sure about that...
> ...


That was ****ty of her. Damn, crazy.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Guess I'll make my usual anti-porn plug, maybe your wife gave up on being your porn star. Perhaps you fed your imagination too much and your wife got turned off that your "loving encounters" became more about fantasy than you just making love to her. I think maybe your expectations about married sex may have been fueled by the (evil!) porn industry.

Maybe you should just chill, get some hobbies, get fit, and stay strong and ready for your ladies libido to return. I've been through a few "downturns" myself and think it's better to just take the quickies when offered, never stop being a gentleman and wooing, and play it cool. You can't force her to up her game, rather just encourage it by setting the right "atmosphere". Stay away from the porn... it will rot your soul and marriage.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Why is she wearing a tiger head gear and her armpit hair seems to be on her shoulders..?
> 
> *It’s a bit weird watching elderly women laugh hysterically about sexual jokes and male stereotypes. Whatever turns them on I suppose...*
> 
> ...


Are we elderly women not supposed to laugh or are we not supposed to laugh about sexual jokes? A good male stereotype is worth its weight in gold. We may be elderly; but, we're not dead.:grin2:


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

Blondilocks said:


> Are we elderly women not supposed to laugh or are we not supposed to laugh about sexual jokes?


You can laugh, just don’t laugh too hard, or so my elder wife tells me.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

CharlieParker said:


> You can laugh, just don’t laugh too hard, or so my elder wife tells me.


I hear they make pads for that little problem.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Blondilocks said:


> I hear they make pads for that little problem.



Who said it’s a problem 


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> Who said it’s a problem
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Nobody in the Pig pen


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Holdingontoit said:


> Two main reasons:
> 
> 1. She is not you. She is a different person. You want her regardless. She does't want you "regardless". Doesn't make you better and her worse. Just different.
> 2. She is female. You are male. You have spontaneous desire fairly often. She may, like many women, only rarely have spontaneous desire. Mostly she has responsive desire. If you decide to hide your feelings of desire to protect your ego, it isn't her fault that she has nothing to respond to.
> ...


I believe decent mostly, and responsible mostly are items that are best included in the entire "package" but also sometimes nuts, unexpected, and now and then "wtf" moments. Mixed in with love and respectful most of the time.

Shaken, not stirred, and there you go, a well rounded male.

But any or some mix of the components can surface anytime and take control. Not having one kill the rest does take effort and whatever happens, happens.

Truthfully, some things I regret, somethings I really don't regret, but I've always been interesting. 

I've never thought of things this way until the last 5 or so years, didn't know people tried to officially label the different things that man, or woman, are or can be. Or I should really say I didn't give the topics much credence until I was older. 

Imo without the components or similar that I named, I believe there's a possibility one becomes a drone of the times.

I was classified, luckily in my opinion, as a *******. Got an education, work in IT, but fortunately retain ******* attributes.


I have always found women love that about me anyway. It has made having regular sex possible I'd like to think.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Reasons not to have sex (from an expert)

https://youtu.be/6M9WfrUHb54


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Who said it’s a problem
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not Poise. You do know we're talking about excreting a little urine when a lady laughs too hard, don't you?


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

Blondilocks said:


> Not Poise. You do know we're talking about excreting a little urine when a lady laughs too hard, don't you?


Absolutely, we do


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Women have been powerless for millennials. Only in the past century have women gained any kind of say over what happens to them and been allowed to join the power circles in society. You can point out obscure societies where women were more powerful but by and large, the suppression of women has only recently been overcome.

If you want someplace to blame for the monogamous society in which we live, it would be correct to place that at the feet of religion. Religious tenets were what finally dictated that marriage - even involving royalty - would only be sanctioned between two people. 

From there, men had to adapt to, instead of just getting sex when they wanted on demand, to becoming a partner who took a woman's desire dynamic into account. Some men have mastered this evolution. Others cling to the old dynamic and rail against the unfairness of it.

Yeah. Talk to the hand. Women have been down far too long to listen to this whining. Women have endured far worse - stoning for adultery, genital mutilation, slavery in harem culture, legal marital rape, shaming for liking and seeking out sex (****, *****, non-marital material) while men have been able to do whatever they wanted without consequence...for millennials. 

The men who *get* why women are transitioning from powerless to having a say in their sex lives, and who have therefore cast aside archaic thinking - have found that the playground on which women will meet them is a vast wonderland. I applaud you guys who have gone to the effort to figure this out and are enjoying fabulous sex. I've read your posts with relish - not only for you but for the women who get to enjoy you. Way to step up.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

PigglyWiggly said:


> Absolutely, we do


Maybe you do. But, inmyprime is a youngin. He may not know about us old folks.

Just to be clear, I don't need Poise because kegels really work. So don't go planning my wake just yet.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Blondilocks said:


> Maybe you do. But, inmyprime is a youngin. He may not know about us old folks.
> 
> 
> 
> Just to be clear, I don't need Poise because kegels really work. So don't go planning my wake just yet.



The youngins call it ‘squirting’. If you truly love someone, everything that’s coming out of them is a gift from heaven  (too much? )


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> Women have been powerless for millennials. Only in the past century have women gained any kind of say over what happens to them and been allowed to join the power circles in society. You can point out obscure societies where women were more powerful but by and large, the suppression of women has only recently been overcome.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well...we had to do a couple of other things too; like die en masse to try and keep women safe. (Not me personally, i would probably have been a chicken sh1t). It was pretty crappy for everyone though, men and women, but for different reasons and in different areas.
Finally, things seem to be looking up yet the complaining (mainly from the radical feminists) seems to have increased...
It’s a strange world.



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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> Blondilocks said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe you do. But, inmyprime is a youngin. He may not know about us old folks.
> ...


Young ones do NOT call bladder incontinence while laughing or coughing "squirting". For real.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

The women of today shouldn't use the "we've been down trodden for generations, therefore give me a pass on my bad behavior I just exhibited " or "give me special consideration for getting what I want in this case" when convenient and forever. 

Those women that have personally lived through the times of W getting to vote, and other similar important events, yes of course, but those great women normally don't want any crutches or hand outs.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Livvie said:


> Young ones do NOT call bladder incontinence while laughing or coughing "squirting". For real.



Depends, if the orgasm was funny enough 
I’m going to try and make wife come with..... ....humour today. 













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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

That's hilarious!! 😁😁😁


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> *Depends, if the orgasm was funny enough*
> I’m going to try and make wife come with..... ....humour today.
> 
> 
> ...


It's just a little squirt, depends would be overkill.


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