# Is LOVE different after your first divorce?



## poida

Hi Guys, 
I'm struggling a bit in my current relationship with my GF after my 8 year marriage failed nearly 2 years ago. Essentially I was cheated on, she was unwilling or unable to R and we broke up. Formal divorce is May 23rd so not far away.

Have known my current GF for 11 months now. When I first met her I was a mess, but I am much better now and starting to move on with my life. Still some anger and hurt about what my wife did, but I'm sure that is normal.

The problem I'm having is that I'm not feeling love toward my new GF the same as I was for my wife.

I adored my wife and I would have done anything for her. My counsellor would later tell me I had a fantasy about who she was because of her emotional absence throughout our relationship.

Now I'm totally confused and sad. I don't know whether the love I am seeking is not real or whether I just don;t have it with this girl. Most baffling with my current GF is that the sex is amazing, we get on really well, awesome chemistry, and all the same values. 

Should I be feeling the whole swept off my feet, heart pounding, can't think straight, need to be with her kind of love or is this just unrealistic?

I think I will find it hard to live life without those feelings now and is why I constantly question my current relationship.


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## Married but Happy

poida said:


> Now I'm totally confused and sad. I don't know whether the love I am seeking is not real or whether I just don;t have it with this girl. Most baffling with my current GF is that the sex is amazing, we get on really well, awesome chemistry, and all the same values.
> 
> Should I be feeling the whole swept off my feet, heart pounding, can't think straight, need to be with her kind of love or is this just unrealistic?


You should have passion for whoever it is, if it's going to work, AND chemistry, compatibility, and similar values. 

The heart pounding, can't think straight stuff isn't sustainable, normally, even if you feel it. That may be infatuation, and not love - only you can tell, and that may take months to sort out. It can actually blind you to faults, incompatibilities, and red flags.

Perhaps you need to date a lot of different people before making any irrevocable choices, to figure out what your feelings mean. The risk now is that you don't actually know, and will make a wrong decision that you and she could regret. The other side of the risk is that you will pass over someone who is really a good fit for you - but if the passion really IS lacking, she's not a good match.


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## 2ntnuf

No love is never the same as the last. Each is different depending on persons and circumstances. Since we all change from life experiences, we can't love the same. While I don't think it is necessary to feel those crazy, out of control in love feelings, it is important to feel something strong. Vulnerability is what is lost when one becomes a BS. It's tough to be vulnerable again and at the same time, it's important to be vulnerable, to some extent, if we want to feel...anything, whether it's a good or bad feeling. Keep going to your counselor and talk about it. I don't think you are alone.


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## SecondTime'Round

I'm not doubting your feelings for your current GF, but it sounds like you are not completely over your ex yet .


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## 2ntnuf

poida, 

I wouldn't say you are or are not over your ex. What I would say is you have not fully recovered from the damage done to your confidence. That's a bit different than still being in love with your ex. We stay aloof in order to safeguard ourselves from further pain. It's fear of being hurt again so badly. It's not wrong or a statement that you are less of something. You just need to do some more healing.


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## poida

Married but Happy said:


> You should have passion for whoever it is, if it's going to work, AND chemistry, compatibility, and similar values.
> 
> The heart pounding, can't think straight stuff isn't sustainable, normally, even if you feel it. That may be infatuation, and not love - only you can tell, and that may take months to sort out. It can actually blind you to faults, incompatibilities, and red flags.
> 
> Perhaps you need to date a lot of different people before making any irrevocable choices, to figure out what your feelings mean. The risk now is that you don't actually know, and will make a wrong decision that you and she could regret. The other side of the risk is that you will pass over someone who is really a good fit for you - but if the passion really IS lacking, she's not a good match.


I tend to agree. Regardless of all that has happened to me, I feel like I should have stronger feelings for her.

I just don't understand why chemistry and passion are so strong in the bedroom and not out of it.

I'm going to try to open up more, go on our European holiday and see what happens.


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## poida

2ntnuf said:


> poida,
> 
> I wouldn't say you are or are not over your ex. What I would say is you have not fully recovered from the damage done to your confidence. That's a bit different than still being in love with your ex. We stay aloof in order to safeguard ourselves from further pain. It's fear of being hurt again so badly. It's not wrong or a statement that you are less of something. You just need to do some more healing.


Totally. And I think it takes years for that pain to go down. I'm not in love with my ex., just very hurt and I guess angry at the waste of it all.

Will try to be more vulnerable.


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## it-guy

Poida, I have felt the exact same way....exact. I don't think I will ever feel for anyone the way I did my ex-wife. And I don't know the answer. I "think" that is because I am more realistic and guarded now. Or maybe I was in love with a fairytale before???

It has bothered me also. But I know if I am ever in a long, lasting relationship with another woman, I will be faithful and loyal just as I should be. So I think it is just a change in me that I will have to deal with. I guess this is the new mature me.


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## SoVeryLost

Chemistry is nothing that can be fabricated. It either exists, or it simply does not. It sounds like you and your new girlfriend may look like a great match on paper, but maybe it ends there. Only you can determine that. There's a song I've referenced when I have been in a similar situation... "Everything You Want" by Vertical Horizon. It's served as a reminder for me when I needed it that although I may have found someone with all the qualities I felt I wanted/needed in a partner, that fire just wasn't there. 

There's an article on dating I read quite some time ago that truly resonated with me that I think of often. To summarize: if it's not a "hell yes!" then its a no. Meaning simply of course that if you have a connection that is merely blasé, don't settle. Wait for your hell yes. Infatuation always wears off, but if you can't find that fire this early on in the relationship, it may be something to think about.


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## another shot

Why would you think the first GF you have is going be the winner?

Courting is for sorting dude. Chill. There are many fish in the sea.


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## poida

another shot said:


> Why would you think the first GF you have is going be the winner?
> 
> Courting is for sorting dude. Chill. There are many fish in the sea.


Thanks dude. Puts a nice bit of perspective on it.


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## poida

SoVeryLost said:


> Chemistry is nothing that can be fabricated. It either exists, or it simply does not. It sounds like you and your new girlfriend may look like a great match on paper, but maybe it ends there. Only you can determine that. There's a song I've referenced when I have been in a similar situation... "Everything You Want" by Vertical Horizon. It's served as a reminder for me when I needed it that although I may have found someone with all the qualities I felt I wanted/needed in a partner, that fire just wasn't there.
> 
> There's an article on dating I read quite some time ago that truly resonated with me that I think of often. To summarize: if it's not a "hell yes!" then its a no. Meaning simply of course that if you have a connection that is merely blasé, don't settle. Wait for your hell yes. Infatuation always wears off, but if you can't find that fire this early on in the relationship, it may be something to think about.


I think the baffling thing to me is that the chemistry IS there. I just don't feel love like I used to.

Perhaps (as others here have identifed) I never will.


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## 2ntnuf

Infatuation is caused by chemistry. It will stay very strong and then fade to either nothing or become manageable and less "crazy mixed up we have to do it now. It's all I want to do".(Unless it's perimenopause for some women. That's basically their puberty with no parents to restrain them like men had their mothers telling them it's nonsense cause they didn't feel it yet. Then, when they get into peri, they get crazy and forget how they crapped on their sons.) I read some of this stuff and think everyone on here is a teenager in puberty. I guess I'd have to find someone with all the good qualities of my second wife, some she didn't have and a body like a short model? Cause that's the only way I'm going to feel those kinds of feelings again. It ain't happening, ever. I'm more realistic than what some think. I'm no spring chicken, or some kid without life's crap in the back pocket, either.

Keep having fun, poida. Don't let this stop you. I didn't think about it being your first relationship. Go date and heal. Be as vulnerable as you safely can. It's not always good to open up as much as folks post here. Some of that is unrealistic. Go have safe fun. Don't get too serious yet.


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## SamuraiJack

poida said:


> Hi Guys,
> I'm struggling a bit in my current relationship with my GF after my 8 year marriage failed nearly 2 years ago. Essentially I was cheated on, she was unwilling or unable to R and we broke up. Formal divorce is May 23rd so not far away.
> 
> Have known my current GF for 11 months now. When I first met her I was a mess, but I am much better now and starting to move on with my life. Still some anger and hurt about what my wife did, but I'm sure that is normal.
> 
> The problem I'm having is that I'm not feeling love toward my new GF the same as I was for my wife.
> 
> I adored my wife and I would have done anything for her. My counsellor would later tell me I had a fantasy about who she was because of her emotional absence throughout our relationship.
> 
> Now I'm totally confused and sad. I don't know whether the love I am seeking is not real or whether I just don;t have it with this girl. Most baffling with my current GF is that the sex is amazing, we get on really well, awesome chemistry, and all the same values.
> 
> Should I be feeling the whole swept off my feet, heart pounding, can't think straight, need to be with her kind of love or is this just unrealistic?
> 
> I think I will find it hard to live life without those feelings now and is why I constantly question my current relationship.


When I was young, growing up on a homestead we used to make loose hay every two seasons.
Well, you can imagine the fun that loose hay is to jump in and I did it up until my 14th year…especially with the gals who would come with me. 

Why did I stop at 14?
Simple…A pitchfork left in the hay.
Skewered my left foot quite nicely.

Ouch. So from then I CHECK the hay before jumping in…but that takes away from the spontaneity of simply jumping.

You, my friend, have been burned. 
It’s only natural that you would be face shy about romance and that it would take you longer to warm up to things.
It’s a protective stance that your mind takes because it realizes that this “thing that was once innocent” and fun can cut you up and spit you out.

It could also be that you are very used to drama and really were in love with an idealized version of her. 
Now that you have a good person in front of you…you simply aren’t sure what to do about it.

Another thing to consider is that some people can simply turn feeling s off while others have to dissipate their feelings slowly.
If you are still dissipating, then it may cloud your feelings for your new GF a bit.

As long as everybody knows EXACTLY what page each other is on, I wouldn’t worry too much.
You mentioned being a mess…maybe some counseling might be in order?


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## toonaive

Yes, and no. You need to take alot of time to yourself.


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## Jung_admirer

We do create a fantasy image of our partner (projection) that supports our subconscious needs. That fantasy explodes after betrayal and we learn the person we married is not equal to our fantasy. The harder part is understanding that the fantasy, its explosion and the related fallout is all about you. On some level you will ask yourself ... How could I choose a person that would betray me? You will need to forgive yourself for this. We punish ourselves for making decisions that ultimately hurt us, but in IC you will come to understand that we cannot expect perfection in our expression of humanity ... only growth. Kindest Regards-


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## Chuck71

Your D sounded the "End of Camelot"

My 1st love, aka high school sweetheart, we both went in blind, but innocent and untainted 

My 2nd love... I went in "eyes wide open"..... she didn't.... reason was, I was her 1st

I felt the innocence and untainted emotion when I first met my XW... it was a different level of emotion.

My post-D LTR.... yeah... "eyes wide a$$ open"

It's all normal. Your love for GF is battling your defense mechanisms.

The "I be damned if my heart gets broken again" vs. the "I want to fall in love again"

Love is always a leap of faith. It is free but so freaking elusive.


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## arbitrator

* That's exactly why after having had two failed marriages with cheating wives, that I'm literally scared crapless about the mere prospects of even having feelings for another woman ~ guessing that I'm largely afraid that they, too, would come to cheat on me!*


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## Wolf1974

poida said:


> I think the baffling thing to me is that the chemistry IS there. I just don't feel love like I used to.
> 
> Perhaps (as others here have identifed) I never will.


Well this is what I have found. I have been divorced several years now. Several relationships in between. I now live with a woman who I do love. It's not the same as the love I had for my x wife. 

With my x I loved her blindly, complete trust with no accountability. I'm not capable of that anylonger so it's different

With my x I grew up with her. Knew her since I was 14 years old. That level of intimacy can't be recreated with someone you meet in middle life in my opinion. So that's different. 

The truth is you and I are different from before. When you get cheated on it changes you. Some for the better and some for the worst. You likely can't create the same dynamic you once had but you can create something new. And sometimes that new thing is far better than the past, just in different ways. It takes some time to get there


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## Chuck71

Wolf1974 said:


> Well this is what I have found. I have been divorced several years now. Several relationships in between. I now live with a woman who I do love. It's not the same as the love I had for my x wife.
> 
> With my x I loved her blindly, complete trust with no accountability. I'm not capable of that anylonger so it's different
> 
> With my x I grew up with her. Knew her since I was 14 years old. That level of intimacy can't be recreated with someone you meet in middle life in my opinion. So that's different.
> 
> The truth is you and I are different from before. When you get cheated on it changes you. Some for the better and some for the worst. You likely can't create the same dynamic you once had but you can create something new. And sometimes that new thing is far better than the past, just in different ways. It takes some time to get there


Dude..... you loved on a level most never do.

Yes you hurt but.... you lived the dream for many years...


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## SamuraiJack

Wolf1974 said:


> Well this is what I have found. I have been divorced several years now. Several relationships in between. I now live with a woman who I do love. It's not the same as the love I had for my x wife.
> 
> With my x I loved her blindly, complete trust with no accountability. I'm not capable of that anylonger so it's different
> 
> With my x I grew up with her. Knew her since I was 14 years old. That level of intimacy can't be recreated with someone you meet in middle life in my opinion. So that's different.
> 
> The truth is you and I are different from before. When you get cheated on it changes you. Some for the better and some for the worst. You likely can't create the same dynamic you once had but you can create something new. And sometimes that new thing is far better than the past, just in different ways. It takes some time to get there


Yes, betrayal changes you.
It takes away your form and purpose as you get heated in the forge...but it also gives you a chance to remake yourself into something more.

When the hammer blows start, think of what you want to be...and become that thing.


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## Rowan

Wolf1974 said:


> Well this is what I have found. I have been divorced several years now. Several relationships in between. I now live with a woman who I do love. It's not the same as the love I had for my x wife.
> 
> With my x I loved her blindly, complete trust with no accountability. I'm not capable of that anylonger so it's different
> 
> *With my x I grew up with her. Knew her since I was 14 years old. That level of intimacy can't be recreated with someone you meet in middle life in my opinion. So that's different*.
> 
> The truth is you and I are different from before. When you get cheated on it changes you. Some for the better and some for the worst. You likely can't create the same dynamic you once had but you can create something new. And sometimes that new thing is far better than the past, just in different ways. It takes some time to get there


I've found this all to be true, as well, particularly the bold. I started dating my ex-husband when I was 15. It's unlikely any other man will ever know me as well as he did. The level of intimacy that comes from having literally grown up with your partner is hard to match. 

But - and it's a big 'but' - that level of intimacy, of being known to my soul, is also what allowed my ex-husband to successfully cheat on me off and on for 20+ years. It's what allowed him to know just how to keep his secret second life going. It's what made him so very, very, good at gas lighting, blame shifting, and all the other little petty torments that kept me blind to who he really was. It's what allowed him to mold my concept of "normal" to include all of the (in hindsight) deeply dysfunctional aspects of our relationship. Having someone know you that well means they know all your insecurities and how to play them, all your buttons and how to push them, all your hopes and dreams and how to dangle them before you, how to keep you hungry and yearning and working to be 'good enough'. 

I won't ever again have that level of being known so deeply by another person. I consider that at once both a great shame, and a great blessing. No one else will ever have the level of trust from me, and knowledge of me, to be able to get away with what my ex-husband did. 

So, yes, love will always be _different_ going forward. And for that, I choose to be grateful.


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## Wolf1974

Chuck71 said:


> Dude..... you loved on a level most never do.
> 
> Yes you hurt but.... you lived the dream for many years...


If that was the way I was to look at it then I would say it wasn't worth it


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## SecondTime'Round

SamuraiJack said:


> When I was young, growing up on a homestead we used to make loose hay every two seasons.
> Well, you can imagine the fun that loose hay is to jump in and I did it up until my 14th year…especially with the gals who would come with me. 
> 
> Why did I stop at 14?
> Simple…A pitchfork left in the hay.
> Skewered my left foot quite nicely.
> 
> Ouch. So from then I CHECK the hay before jumping in…but that takes away from the spontaneity of simply jumping.
> 
> You, my friend, have been burned.
> It’s only natural that you would be face shy about romance and that it would take you longer to warm up to things.
> It’s a protective stance that your mind takes because it realizes that this “thing that was once innocent” and fun can cut you up and spit you out.
> 
> It could also be that you are very used to drama and really were in love with an idealized version of her.
> Now that you have a good person in front of you…you simply aren’t sure what to do about it.
> 
> Another thing to consider is that some people can simply turn feeling s off while others have to dissipate their feelings slowly.
> If you are still dissipating, then it may cloud your feelings for your new GF a bit.
> 
> As long as everybody knows EXACTLY what page each other is on, I wouldn’t worry too much.
> You mentioned being a mess…maybe some counseling might be in order?


Love, love, love this post. Gonna print it out and put it in my wallet.


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## Hardtohandle

SamuraiJack said:


> When I was young, growing up on a homestead we used to make loose hay every two seasons.
> Well, you can imagine the fun that loose hay is to jump in and I did it up until my 14th year…especially with the gals who would come with me. 
> 
> Why did I stop at 14?
> Simple…A pitchfork left in the hay.
> Skewered my left foot quite nicely.
> 
> Ouch. So from then I CHECK the hay before jumping in…but that takes away from the spontaneity of simply jumping.
> 
> You, my friend, have been burned.
> It’s only natural that you would be face shy about romance and that it would take you longer to warm up to things.
> It’s a protective stance that your mind takes because it realizes that this “thing that was once innocent” and fun can cut you up and spit you out.
> 
> It could also be that you are very used to drama and really were in love with an idealized version of her.
> Now that you have a good person in front of you…you simply aren’t sure what to do about it.
> 
> Another thing to consider is that some people can simply turn feeling s off while others have to dissipate their feelings slowly.
> If you are still dissipating, then it may cloud your feelings for your new GF a bit.
> 
> As long as everybody knows EXACTLY what page each other is on, I wouldn’t worry too much.
> You mentioned being a mess…maybe some counseling might be in order?





SecondTime'Round said:


> Love, love, love this post. Gonna print it out and put it in my wallet.


Honest comment here.. Was gonna post but then I said let me see if SamuraiJack posted ( BTW that was my sons favorite cartoon and mine. I was sad he never found his way home )..

To the OP..

I felt and feel the same way.. 

You might know and not admit it or know for sure but just calling it something else.. 

I can only explain it as SamraiJack did, its this protected feeling, this blanket or barrier you put up now.. 

I do the same thing with my current GF and as you, I feel the same way.. But I realized it was me.. All my issues.. 

My what if she does the same thing to me.. My Ex wife did it and I spent 20 years with her, I had 2 kids with her. We've been through many rough times together as a couple and a family.. I would have moved heaven and earth for my Ex wife and she knew it.. If she could do this to me, ANYONE CAN.. 

ANY, ANY relationship is a leap of faith.. Poida, you take the chance and you hope it works out. If it doesn't then you move on.. But playing the what if game is gonna drive you nuts and hurt EVERY SINGLE RELATIONSHIP YOUR IN.. Not just this one..

Again trust me I have been dancing with this issue right now for months.. I finally said fvck it and just gonna take the leap and hope it all works out..


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## it-guy

I want to thank the contributors of this thread. Too many to mention individually. This is by far the most helpful thread (for me) I have read on TAM in years.


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## Baseballmom6

This is by far one of the best questions and comments I have read in a long time. I have been questioning myself about my current relationship and wondering what it "should" feel like. Right now I'm just trying to take it one day at a time and enjoying it for what it is.


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## poida

Jung_admirer said:


> We do create a fantasy image of our partner (projection) that supports our subconscious needs. That fantasy explodes after betrayal and we learn the person we married is not equal to our fantasy. The harder part is understanding that the fantasy, its explosion and the related fallout is all about you. On some level you will ask yourself ... How could I choose a person that would betray me? You will need to forgive yourself for this. We punish ourselves for making decisions that ultimately hurt us, but in IC you will come to understand that we cannot expect perfection in our expression of humanity ... only growth. Kindest Regards-


I lost my sh*t last night and told my GF I wasn't sure if I was love with her and I was very confused about my feelings. Obviously she got hurt. Some will say I shouldn't have done this, but it's done now so onto the more important point.

I asked her this morning after a sombre night what love was for her. She said it was;
1. Thinking about me all the time,
2. Feeling my affections and love for her when I am present,
3. Feeling happy to receive love from me when we are together.

I was a bit stunned. Item 2 really stopped me in my tracks. What? Feeling my love is "love" to her????

All the IC I had came rushing back and I guess I had an AHA! moment. All this time, I realised I was looking at love all wrong. I realised I had discussed it to death in IC, but it just didn't click, I just didn't comprehend the whole problem after practising the opposite for my whole marriage, and probably my whole life.

I realised right there and then that the love I felt for my wife was simply the love I projected onto her which reflected back like a mirror onto me. I was stunned. Silent.

This is why I feel confused and empty. I have realised that trying to "create" love for someone else within myself isn't possible. And that after being stung by my wife, my mind is preventing me from creating a fantasy for my GF and also prevents me from projecting love back onto myself which I am subconsciously aware is fake and hollow.

This feels like progress. Thanks guys.

I know now to be more present and to be emotionally open to love from outside. To forget about "creating" love and simply live in the moment.


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## poida

Wolf1974 said:


> If that was the way I was to look at it then I would say it wasn't worth it


I feel the same. I would choose to have been alone over betrayal.


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## 2ntnuf

poida said:


> I lost my sh*t last night and told my GF I wasn't sure if I was love with her and I was very confused about my feelings. Obviously she got hurt. Some will say I shouldn't have done this, but it's done now so onto the more important point.
> 
> I asked her this morning after a sombre night what love was for her. She said it was;
> 1. Thinking about me all the time,
> 2. Feeling my affections and love for her when I am present,
> 3. Feeling happy to receive love from me when we are together.
> 
> I was a bit stunned. Item 2 really stopped me in my tracks. What? Feeling my love is "love" to her????
> 
> All the IC I had came rushing back and I guess I had an AHA! moment. All this time, I realised I was looking at love all wrong. I realised I had discussed it to death in IC, but it just didn't click, I just didn't comprehend the whole problem after practising the opposite for my whole marriage, and probably my whole life.
> 
> I realised right there and then that the love I felt for my wife was simply the love I projected onto her which reflected back like a mirror onto me. I was stunned. Silent.
> 
> This is why I feel confused and empty. I have realised that trying to "create" love for someone else within myself isn't possible. And that after being stung by my wife, my mind is preventing me from creating a fantasy for my GF and also prevents me from projecting love back onto myself which I am subconsciously aware is fake and hollow.
> 
> This feels like progress. Thanks guys.
> 
> I know now to be more present and to be emotionally open to love from outside. To forget about "creating" love and simply live in the moment.


This was tough for me to understand. Hope you don't mind a few questions?

You think the love you thought your ex was giving you was actually a misunderstanding of the love you felt for her? She didn't actually show you love or feel any or much, or as much as you did for her, but you thought she did because of how strongly you felt about her?

So, your concluding that it takes you seeing her actions of love to actually have that love for her, rather than accepting that because you love her, she automatically must love you? This is tough for me to even explain. 

This, if I understand correctly, and I'm not sure I do, just means love is an action word. It's a verb, and has to be for the object of your love to know you love them. What we feel as individuals for someone else, must be backed by actions from that person, or they are our own fantasies? All else is attraction or in the early stages, likely infatuation. 

If what I posted above is reasonable, then, it's a matter of finding a woman or man, depending on the person, who defines your actions as love for them. It's natural for us to do things for someone we love. It doesn't mean they will see those actions as love, hence the five love languages book. How much one is willing to change to be able to get them to understand that their actions are love, is up to each individual. 

poida, are you concluding from this, that she doesn't do things that help you understand that she loves you? Is that why you aren't "feeling it" with her? Because, between marriages, that's what I didn't feel and left whomever I was dating. Also, I needed to feel the attraction for the woman, on top of or added to that. I didn't need to feel the overwhelming hot, I can't wait to have sex, tear your clothes off stuff, just good attraction. Too much of the other and I knew I'd be in the fog(although I didn't know that word), and less able to discern her actions.

Is this following the lines of your thinking? I put it in my own life's contexts so I might more easily understand.


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## Jellybeans

Poida, it could that you didn't fully grieve the loss of your marriage/divorce. I was not really ready to date and be really interested until years after my divorce. I think you started dating girlfriend 1 year after your divorce or separation? After an 8 year relationship... for me personally, a year post-divorce, i was still nowhere near ready or wanting a relationship.

Divorce does change you in a way. For me, relationships have been different. A certain naivete is gone.


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## Hardtohandle

@ Poida

I was fighting the same demons.. 
You never realize how bad this stuff really fvcks you up.. 
I've said it before and I will say it again.. I've been through 9/11 as a first responder. I've had people I considered friends that I worked with killed in the line of duty. Still to this day I escort one widow and her children to a thanksgiving day parade widows and orphans function for slain members of the service.. Mind you I never been to the parade with my kids, but for the past 10+ years I've been there with someone elses wife and kids.. Even going through my own issues at home with my own ex wife I still went to do what is right for my friend and his memory.. I've dealt with countless of images and videos of child exploitation. I've been at the scene of many, many homicides which included those of children.. 

But NOTHING fvcked me up like my Ex wife did.. In my mind I could do anything and handle anything as long as my Ex wife was by my side..

These things really turn you sideways and it becomes difficult to find which way is up sometimes.. 

@2ntnuf

You sort of answered your own question with this statement;


2ntnuf said:


> So, your concluding that it takes you seeing her actions of love to actually have that love for her, rather than accepting that because you love her, she automatically must love you? This is tough for me to even explain.


I think for many, including myself you have this fantasy of love.. I personally equated sex with love. In many ways I still do, but I temper myself and try to remind myself to look at the big picture.

I think that once you're burned. Its like being over cooked. Now you're going off the deep end and over reacting about things and emotions.

I'm starting to understand more that love is a mutual respect more than anything else.. 

As you get older ( Myself being close to 48 ) you start to have some simple realities as well. 
1. I want someone who will improve me. I don't need to support someone else in any way. That statement pretty much covers everything for me, Emotionally and/or Financially.. Yes, your a great girl but I'm NOT here to support your kids and balance your checkbook.. I'm not here to help you through your issues with X,Y or Z.. 

Conversely I don't want to do the same to my GF, which I was doing.. 

I think everyone has their own phobia.. For me it was simply, if my Ex wife could do it, anyone can.. And yes I guess I automatically assumed since I loved my wife, she loved me.. 

So for me I had to put my GF through TESTS.. A bunch of What if situations.. Nonetheless, she was smart enough to figure it all out and eventually I got the speech *"I love you to death, but if this keeps going on you're gonna make me leave."*

My issue simply was my GF told me of her sorted past and I had a hard time getting over it.. She didn't do anything crazy, but she dated a lot before being married ( 20 years ) and dated some after her separation and before meeting me. 

Her only fault and big mistake was telling *insecure me* and I punished her for it..

I think we beat ourselves up as well. For me it was here is this beautiful woman who dated personal trainers, bodybuilders and over all good looking men and here I am some out of shape wreck of a man. Men who not having kids are in a better financial situation. Some with more money than me.
I'm in a panic about gaining weight.. I don't want to be the REALLY FAT GUY I was..

Posted in another thread, that I just realized ( Yea I was stupid) that women can fvck who they want, when they want.. There is no shortage of d!ck for a woman if they want it.. I mean absolutely none.. Where men ( or just me ) just are not that lucky.. We *MIGHT* walk away with a phone number or two.. But women do not have to guess at that.. They know for sure when they want d!ck, they can get it.. 

Being cheated on, it now freaks me the fvck out.. It really does.. Because now I know I have no control over this.. I just have to trust this woman, with ALL THIS POWER. That she won't use it to hurt me.. 

Now imagine that this woman whom I am dating and loves me and is very attractive that has ALL THIS POWER.. Tells me it drives her nuts and crazy to imagine me with someone else.. 

I just don't get.. 

And on top of all of this she dealt with all my bullsh!t.. 

These were and are some of my barriers and my issues, I had/have to deal with..

All of this sh!t prevents you from seeing the good in a person..They are out to get you.. Whats the angle with this person, what are they really trying to get at.. Are they really telling me the truth ? Oh, she is trying to pull the wool over my eyes !. Everyone is seen with a crooked eye. 

Its not a great way to go through life..

The GF tells me stop being a Detective, that I'm not at work and that she is not in an interview room.


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## Dedicated2Her

I am getting married in 5 weeks. I have been dating my fiance for a little over 2 years. The intense "love" feelings that most would describe really have never been there. With my ex, she was almost an addiction for me. I craved her in so many ways. The problem with that was it glossed over some of the key things that make a relationship grow and prosper.

My reentry to the dating world included me working with my therapist hand in hand to develop a very hard core group of dealbreakers. Also, learning that love is a verb. When I first started dating my fiance, I was really numb, however, she was so much fun to be with and such a beautiful person on the inside and out that I just enjoyed spending time with her. My actions have been to slowly open up to her and give my time, my thoughts, and my effort into cultivating a close friendship with her. (the crazy good sex didn't hurt either) I would really say at the 12-18 month mark is when the closeness really started to set in. It just felt naturally to be open with her and that generally started to really generate those feelings of attachment. I would say that our "love" is a mature love of admiration, commitment, and unselfishness. I can tell you...... I would much rather have this than some "lustful, puppy dog" type infactuation. I can see her negatives, and I can also see her positives. It makes for very little that tears down our affection and so much that builds it up. I chose her to be my life partner. Not because of a feeling, but because she is capable of returning the love I give her.

So, yes, it can be different.


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## SamuraiJack

poida said:


> I know now to be more present and to be emotionally open to love from outside. To forget about "creating" love and simply live in the moment.


This. Right here.

If you truly love someone, then you DONT project your stuff onto them and bask in what comes back. Thats actually a very disingenuous way to get what you think is love.
It's also the basis for narcissism.

Instead, you have to accept the person for what they are, warts and all...and love them for being who they are.

Not because of unmet needs or social perception...but just because they are "who they are".

Dont bask in the reflected light of your projections....bask in THEIR light and they can bask in YOURS.

For more help on this I suggest "The Four Agreements" by Don Miguel Ruiz. 
Its a simple read and very "Huh...Never looked at it that way..."

It helped me see things much more clearly when it came to differentiating between my ex and my GF.

I CAN tell you that I was in much the same situation.
I was fresh off a divorce and playing the field and casually screwing my way through my county.
Then I met my GF.

Things changed rapidly as we were very good together and she was a very level headed person...in short...very good for me.

I realized I needed to speed up the healing process and told her as much. She was very tolerant of my head shy ways and I had feelings similar to yours in that I "sorta kinda wondered if I was REALLY in love".

Turns out that was me still letting my feelings subside. I am NOT one to turn off feelings easily.
We have been together now for three years. 
I cleaned up my act and love her every day with a conscious choice to do so.

Like Jellybeans said, its devoid of naive feelings and expectations. Love with a different person will always have a different flavor. To compare you current mate with an old one is a disservice.

But...knowing it could end at any time gives you a finer appreciation for what you have together. That feeling of not wanting to get your soul trampled again...it's called "Wisdom".
Listen to it and dont let your fears rule you.

I like to think of my first marriage as "the time I learned to ride a bike"
I rode the bike I was given and did the things I was told to do and I practiced.

My current relationship...I get to choose my bike, my path and I have the balance thing all figured out. 

Hell, I might even put a baseball card in the spokes to make it faster! Then ride off into the sunset with my new lady on her bike!

(wackety,wackety,wackety,wackety,wackety,wackety,wackety,wackety...)


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## poida

All great stories and comments.
I'm quite numb today after all that happened yesterday.
I suppose I feel worse than ever that our relationship isn't progressing at the moment.
Me reneging on my invitations for her to move in with me (twice now) has put a strain on the relationship.
One part of me just says to move in and if it doesn't work out so what.
Another part of me is very very concious about upsetting her if it doesn't work out. I feel a bit like I am tricking her or that it is unfair for me to suggest to her that all is going great when it might not work out.
I don't know. It's so confusing.
In the mean time, I am just trying to be open and appreciative of what I have in her.


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## poida

2ntnuf said:


> This was tough for me to understand. Hope you don't mind a few questions?
> 
> You think the love you thought your ex was giving you was actually a misunderstanding of the love you felt for her? She didn't actually show you love or feel any or much, or as much as you did for her, but you thought she did because of how strongly you felt about her?
> 
> *What I am saying is that the "love" I felt was a fantasy that I created within myself. I realise now that the mental process of that "love" feeling was similar to me projecting my love fantasy into a mirror (her) and it bouncing back at me.
> 
> She was a very closed off person. She definitely showed her love with deliberate acts of kindness. I was never really able to connect with her on a deeper level. She was unable to open up in arguments, or tell me how she felt deep down, or be truly vulnerable to me. If I had to suggest how she loved, me, it was probably a bit like daddy love.*
> 
> So, your concluding that it takes you seeing her actions of love to actually have that love for her, rather than accepting that because you love her, she automatically must love you? This is tough for me to even explain.
> 
> This, if I understand correctly, and I'm not sure I do, just means love is an action word. It's a verb, and has to be for the object of your love to know you love them. What we feel as individuals for someone else, must be backed by actions from that person, or they are our own fantasies? All else is attraction or in the early stages, likely infatuation.
> 
> If what I posted above is reasonable, then, it's a matter of finding a woman or man, depending on the person, who defines your actions as love for them. It's natural for us to do things for someone we love. It doesn't mean they will see those actions as love, hence the five love languages book. How much one is willing to change to be able to get them to understand that their actions are love, is up to each individual.
> 
> poida, are you concluding from this, that she doesn't do things that help you understand that she loves you? Is that why you aren't "feeling it" with her? Because, between marriages, that's what I didn't feel and left whomever I was dating. Also, I needed to feel the attraction for the woman, on top of or added to that. I didn't need to feel the overwhelming hot, I can't wait to have sex, tear your clothes off stuff, just good attraction. Too much of the other and I knew I'd be in the fog(although I didn't know that word), and less able to discern her actions.
> 
> Is this following the lines of your thinking? I put it in my own life's contexts so I might more easily understand.


The point of my post was that a healthy feeling of "love" for someone else requires the ability to "feel" that person on a deeper level. 

Whilst my ex-wife did many things for me and frequently showed acts of kindness and affection, she lacked the ability to open up, connect on a deeper level and be vulnerable. She was even unable to tell me how she felt, why she was upset about something. Arguments were incredibly frustrating as nothing ever got resolved on a deeper level.

I had never considered that part of feeling of "love" can be feeling the love your partner has for you. That is what I was trying to compensate for in my previous relationship by creating a fantasy of love for her to replace the lack of intimacy.

That is what was they eye opener.


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## 2ntnuf

poida said:


> The point of my post was that a healthy feeling of "love" for someone else requires the ability to "feel" that person on a deeper level.
> 
> Whilst my ex-wife did many things for me and frequently showed acts of kindness and affection, she lacked the ability to open up, connect on a deeper level and be vulnerable. She was even unable to tell me how she felt, why she was upset about something. Arguments were incredibly frustrating as nothing ever got resolved on a deeper level.
> 
> I had never considered that part of feeling of "love" can be feeling the love your partner has for you. That is what I was trying to compensate for in my previous relationship by creating a fantasy of love for her to replace the lack of intimacy.
> 
> That is what was they eye opener.


Thank you. That makes sense.


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## Chuck71

poida said:


> Me reneging on my invitations for her to move in with me (twice now) has put a strain on the relationship.


Did you decide those two times for her to move in or do you feel she made covert attempts to

make you feel as if you had to ask her, i/e. we could have more time together if we had the same address?


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## poida

Chuck71 said:


> Did you decide those two times for her to move in or do you feel she made covert attempts to
> 
> make you feel as if you had to ask her, i/e. we could have more time together if we had the same address?


I invited her both times out of the blue.

BUT, there is an inherent pressure on her part to move the relationship along. She is all in and wants the whole package. She's 34, wants move in, marriage, house, kids etc etc

She certainly doesn't talk much about it or pressure me directly, but it's there. It's just that age I suppose.

I guess I was just trying to do the right thing by her.

I feel stressed out just writing this.

Perhaps that is the core of why I am so gun shy. Things moving too quickly.


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## Chuck71

poida said:


> I guess I was just trying to do the right thing by her.
> 
> I feel stressed out just writing this.
> 
> Perhaps that is the core of why I am so gun shy. Things moving too quickly.


What do YOU want to do?


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## Dedicated2Her

poida said:


> I invited her both times out of the blue.
> 
> BUT, there is an inherent pressure on her part to move the relationship along. She is all in and wants the whole package. She's 34, wants move in, marriage, house, kids etc etc
> 
> She certainly doesn't talk much about it or pressure me directly, but it's there. It's just that age I suppose.
> 
> I guess I was just trying to do the right thing by her.
> 
> I feel stressed out just writing this.
> 
> Perhaps that is the core of why I am so gun shy. Things moving too quickly.


11 months in and you feel like this? Run. Run away. You need some alone time.


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## 3Xnocharm

Hard2Handle and Dedicated...those are two of the best posts I have read here, thank you for posting them!


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## Chuck71

She may be attempting to speed things along because.....A-She may love you, head over heels

B-Her clock is ticking for children, family.

C-Due to her age, she may want to find out ASAP if you are the 'real deal' for marriage. If everything

changes once you live together and she is unhappy.... she will be what then... 36

still wanting a family. If she is careful.... it would then be around.... 39 or 40 for her, even if she did meet

a Mr. Right after you and her split.

Rowan..... 3x if I'm off the mark on how she may see it, let me know.


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## SamuraiJack

Poida, I was wondering...

Is there a chance that maybe there is a side of you that feels you Dont DESERVE a real honest to goddness woman and cant figure out what to do with her?

I can tell you that there was a time where I wouldnt have known honest healthy love if it came up and bit me in the ass.

I keep sensing some type of self denial on your part. Not that you wont see it, it's almost as if you are punishing yourself a bit.

Ask yourself the following question, but when you do, see if you can hear anything whispering to you from the back of your mind...
Do you feel like you HONESTLY deserve a healthy loving relationship?


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## Chuck71

Some people self-sabotage a relationship because they do not feel like they deserve to be in one.


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## SamuraiJack

> my 8 year marriage failed nearly 2 years ago. Essentially I was cheated on, she was unwilling or unable to R and we broke up. Formal divorce is May 23rd so not far away.


Internalized guilt over the failure compounded by self punishment at not being "good enough"?

That could very well lead to supressing honest feelings if he feels he doesnt deserve them.


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## Rowan

My guess is that if she's all-in, she probably feels pretty jerked around by having been asked to move in, then having that invitation withdrawn, two different times. That's some pretty serious push-pull going on there. 

I suggest doing whatever is necessary to know yourself well enough that you don't subject people who care about you to that sort of dynamic. If that means that you need to spend some time alone or with a good therapist, then do it.


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## poida

Chuck71 said:


> What do YOU want to do?


After my GF was away for work for a few days and she came home I have realised it's not about her at all really.

I just need to take it slow. My heart is still slowly opening up.

I had a glimpse of me opening up last night which supported that.

So, the answer is slowly slowly.


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## poida

SamuraiJack said:


> Poida, I was wondering...
> 
> Is there a chance that maybe there is a side of you that feels you Dont DESERVE a real honest to goddness woman and cant figure out what to do with her?
> 
> I can tell you that there was a time where I wouldnt have known honest healthy love if it came up and bit me in the ass.
> 
> I keep sensing some type of self denial on your part. Not that you wont see it, it's almost as if you are punishing yourself a bit.
> 
> Ask yourself the following question, but when you do, see if you can hear anything whispering to you from the back of your mind...
> Do you feel like you HONESTLY deserve a healthy loving relationship?


I don't think so. As per previous comment, I've just realised I'm still quite hurt and without being aware of it, my heart is very guarded and taking a long time to open up again.

I saw a glimpse of it opening up last night which made me happy.


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## poida

Chuck71 said:


> She may be attempting to speed things along because.....A-She may love you, head over heels
> 
> B-Her clock is ticking for children, family.
> 
> C-Due to her age, she may want to find out ASAP if you are the 'real deal' for marriage. If everything
> 
> changes once you live together and she is unhappy.... she will be what then... 36
> 
> still wanting a family. If she is careful.... it would then be around.... 39 or 40 for her, even if she did meet
> 
> a Mr. Right after you and her split.
> 
> Rowan..... 3x if I'm off the mark on how she may see it, let me know.


Well as I said, all of that is true. And no matter what my situation is, it would apply some sort of pressure to any relationship. Mid 30's is a hard age to meet someone no matter what the situation in my opinion.


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## poida

Rowan said:


> My guess is that if she's all-in, she probably feels pretty jerked around by having been asked to move in, then having that invitation withdrawn, two different times. That's some pretty serious push-pull going on there.
> 
> I suggest doing whatever is necessary to know yourself well enough that you don't subject people who care about you to that sort of dynamic. If that means that you need to spend some time alone or with a good therapist, then do it.


Well yeah. Obviously. 

At least her 3 days away has helped me realise it wasn't really about HER. I told her that some space apart occasionally has been good for me and ultimately I would like too think good for us. I think that conversation has settled the moving in situation for now and hopefully will allow me to heal faster.


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## SamuraiJack

poida said:


> I don't think so. As per previous comment, I've just realised I'm still quite hurt and without being aware of it, my heart is very guarded and taking a long time to open up again.
> 
> I saw a glimpse of it opening up last night which made me happy.


Then you have to tell her the same thing I told my GF.

"Darling, I wasnt expecting you and I wasnt really ready. But you are definitely worth it, so I'm going to put on my work clothes and try to speed up my healing. 
In the meantime, please understand that it's not you and I may "show you some weird" on occasion.
I think you are worth it and I would rather slow things down a bit rather than screw it up."

That worked for me. She said she realized I would most likely never be over her, but she could see the hurt getting less and less each day.
So she stuck with me.
She says my vulnerability made me attractive...go figure.


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## poida

SamuraiJack said:


> Then you have to tell her the same thing I told my GF.
> 
> "Darling, I wasnt expecting you and I wasnt really ready. But you are definitely worth it, so I'm going to put on my work clothes and try to speed up my healing.
> In the meantime, please understand that it's not you and I may "show you some weird" on occasion.
> I think you are worth it and I would rather slow things down a bit rather than screw it up."
> 
> That worked for me. She said she realized I would most likely never be over her, but she could see the hurt getting less and less each day.
> So she stuck with me.
> She says my vulnerability made me attractive...go figure.


I've been all over that since day one. 

Most of my issue has been battling internal confusion and pushing myself.

Since my GF worked away and came back, something has changed. I've realised it really isn't anything to doe her at all which makes me very happy.


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## SamuraiJack

poida said:


> I've been all over that since day one.
> 
> Most of my issue has been battling internal confusion and pushing myself.
> 
> Since my GF worked away and came back, something has changed. I've realised it really isn't anything to doe her at all which makes me very happy.


Excellent! Personal growtha nd insight is a very rewarding thing.
Now you just need to keep working on yourself and do the sometimes clumsy dance we call personal growth.

Trust me, if they made mine into a dance I would think they would call it "The Seizure"...


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## Chuck71

SamuraiJack said:


> Excellent! Personal growtha nd insight is a very rewarding thing.
> Now you just need to keep working on yourself and do the sometimes clumsy dance we call personal growth.
> 
> Trust me, if they made mine into a dance I would think they would call it "The Seizure"...


This is more you SJ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nM4okRvCg2g


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## BoyScout

My head is reeling after reading all of this thread. My situation is at the same time similar and very different, but this has been so temendously helpful to me.

Poida, your point that the love you felt from your x was at least in part a reflection of your love for her, hit me like a hammer to forehead. That was me to a tee. She was so cold, but I kept telling myself that there was something there and I kept (and still) fighting for it. In truth there was nothing there, only my reflected feelings. WOW. 

Second, the woman I am seeing was cheated on by her x. I have been sometimes frustrated because we can't seem to match our speeds. This has helped me see the major impact the infidelity has had on her being able to be open and trusting. I've been looking at as 'hey, I am a faithful, caring, good guy, so what's the problem'. I see it's not that simple. From my perspective I've been WAY too anxious to put the crap behind me, find someone who can VALIDATE me and move on. My validation needs to begin inside my head. 

Reading this, I am shocked at how simple this seems but how unbelievably hard this is to see when you are in the middle of it.

Thank you.


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