# How do i battle this ???



## insafemode (Oct 27, 2010)

I HAVE READ MOST OF THE PAGES ON THIS POST AND I'M CONVINCED THAT THE INTELLIGENT AND WONDERFUL PEOPLE ON HERE CAN HELP! I TRULY HOPE SO !!!

I have been in my relationship for 17 years, same woman... I don't even know how to start talking about this mess! I have 2 children but they're older now (20 and 23) and they're busy with their lives... so they're not really the concern. The basic problem here is that prior to my relationship with her, she had 2 lesbian relationships that lasted pretty long... one was 5 years.

When we got together, she realized that being with a guy was more "natural" on many levels and we worked on our life... although she has been a handful... very needy, very self deserving and also very beautiful (which has posed a roster of problems over the years). About 7 years ago, I think she was having an affair with a guy (but wasn't sure) and I became pretty aggressive, so she backed off and we managed to re-kindle our relationship...

Everything for the past 7 years or so, has been fine... UNTIL THIS!!! Out of nowhere, she gets an e-mail from her very first love (who lives in another Country). EVERYTHING and I mean EVERYTHING that she was, has re-surfaced. All the lesbian tendencies, sexuality, drives... ALL OF IT has come back.

This woman has a high paying job (big deal) but she has money behind her, so there's success, she travels a lot, so there's interest there of course and much more... it's a very desirable thing since they have a history together, which is making them act like teenagers again. Money is not an issue for either of them.

She dropped a small bomb on me a month ago, saying that she bought tickets for Vegas for her an her Mother as a birthday gift since she's never taken her Mother anywhere with just the 2 of them but what she failed to explain was her ulterior motive, which was to meet with this woman in Vegas, leave her Mother there to play the slot machines while she has this deep love affair with her lover. How do I know this? I have absolutely every single e-mail communication they've ever had between them from the beginning.

The "woman" would be signing into a hotel under a false name, they would be taking hotels adjacent (close by) and having the time of their life... Now, I'm no rocket scientist... but something is seriously wrong here!

When she told me she bought the tickets for her and her Mother, I told her that if she goes, I sense "disaster" with our relationship and that I'm having these "impending thoughts of doom" over this... as I clearly knew why she was going and using her Mother as a smoke screen.

She became very upset and said she would cancel the tickets... then started "blaming" me for ruining her nice fun vacation with her Mother... then she totally stopped talking to me... and it was silent in the house for a month.

Her Mother (who visits on weekends - very nice lady and loves me very much), was very angry with me for stopping this and wanted an explanation... then I told her why and showed her the e-mails... She's now been crying every day for a month and said that she will "dis-own" her daughter if she leaves me for this woman... she explained that she knows this woman from years back and that she's a bossy and demanding idiot...

OK.... here we are... and I've had enough of the daily e-mails and calls... it's killing me, we are now 3 months into this, I've lost 20 pounds and wasn't even fat to begin with and I'm ready.... so this is my plan:

1. This Friday, I'm going to have over 600 pages of all her e-mails printed and put into a 3 ring binder and wrap it in gift paper.
2. I'm going to "grill" her once again so she tells all the same lies one more time, so they're all "fresh lies".
3. I'm going to give her the "evidence" and show her what a rotten idiot she's been and that she's going to lose her job, her Mother, Me, Her family, her beautiful home and the beautiful pets we have... everything will be gone...
4. I'm going to e-mail the "woman" and tell her that she must immediately stop all communication with my wife and if she doesn't, I'm going to put forward a tort-feasor against her and sue her for interference. (like that'll work!)
5. I'm going to change her passwords on the computer and tell her that she must call work and take a 1 week leave of absence for family problems (they'll let her).

THEN WORK ON THIS WOMAN AND MAKE HER SEE WHAT SHE WILL LOSE... OK, OK.... You're probably thinking that I sound like a control freak... but I'm not... This is a woman that is treating me like a doormat, has no respect for anything I do, have done for her or anyone else for that matter and she's acting like nothing is wrong, except that she has alienated me completely from everything in her life.

Well? What do think ??? You know, 17 years of my life is a long time and not only do I love her, but I'm still in love with her, which is really remarkable considering all the crap...

SOMEBODY STOP ME... OR CORRECT ME !!! OR FIX ME !!! OR SOMETHING !!! (castration is not an option... hang on... ok... no).


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Ok. First, calm down. There are things you can do. But you have to be calm and logical.

First, go to affaircare.com and read everything they have. Ask them for help. It's a husband and wife who post here, who have VERY good advice. It happens to follow what marriagebuilders.com advises, and THEY are based on 30 years of practice. So know that it works.

They have a 7-step process to follow, IN ORDER. Follow their plan. Ok?


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## insafemode (Oct 27, 2010)

I know... I need to calm down... and that's what I did when I wrote the posting... you wouldn't believe the intensity when I've actually slept for more than 2 hours...

I hope I can remember everything when I'm actually confronting her... sometimes we prepare by reading but when it comes to a practical application with all the stress, it comes out differently, and in the wrong order...

Thank you... I'll try...


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## Nekko (Oct 13, 2009)

I know it's a tough situation to be in, but do try to keep your confidence and calm up. If you're extremely angry, you'll push her away. It'll be considered an attack and a lot of people will respond to that with either building walls and going in defense mode or snapping back to that person and trying to hurt them back (even if they don't have any reason to blame them)

If you're too door-mat-like "i understand honey, now please love me again" she'll step all over you. She won't even realize you're hurting or that she should give a damn about that (talking from personal experience...as in i didn't listen or give a damn because my guy didn't know how to say what he needs or stand up for himself). 

As always, take some time to think and place yourself in her shoes. Imagine what's happening to her were happening to you. I'm saying this because it'll help you realize how you'd react to certain types of arguments and situations. Since you know your wife for a long time, you'll also probably realize where she'd respond differently than you. After some thought and establishing how you want the whole confrontation to end (don't focus on how it happens for starters, focus on the results you want to achieve!), make up a plan to achieve those results. 

Ex: you're extremely angry and you feel like yelling at your spouse for hours just to hurt them because your hurt. What you really want is a happy marriage. Exhibiting that anger will NOT get you a happy marriage, it will push your spouse away. 

In some cases, i'm really a fan of "whatever works" so i'd personally even try to manipulate in order to get back to a happy marriage. I know this sounds horrible but i also know that people tend to make huge mistakes and **** up their lives when they are drawn by a "shiny piece of candy" outside the marriage.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Hi insafemode~

I just saw your post and it's almost 2am Pacific Time (which means dawn on the other coast). I've read your post to Tanelorn and we'll be responding in a few hours okay? Even we need a little sleep! :lol: LOL :rofl:

Turnera's advice is really good--calm down and read. I'd suggest starting with Seven Steps to Ending an Affair, but there are a couple other ones that I think will also be helpful. The goal in calming down is that when a person re-acts out of emotion, usually it's not too well thought-out, and this situation REQUIRES a very deliberate plan. We have steps we suggest (strongly) but in the end it is your life, and you need to be able to think in a clear-headed way to decide what to do. Okay? 

Talk to ya tomorrow!


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## insafemode (Oct 27, 2010)

Well, when I'm around her, I'm actually quite calm... I never yell at her but instead explain things in a logical manner... the problem is, she isn't that logical... more emotional and she's pretty stubborn as well...

She may storm out of the house when I show her the evidence... in fact, she probably will.... then the first person she'll call is of course - her lover.

I'm confused as to whether I should ask her if she wants to stop this affair, or tell her to stop it.... or tell her I'm going to stop it whether she likes it or not... I mean, do I really have that right to screw up someone's life, even if she is my wife ?

There are a lot of "subjective" issues here and who am I to say that she isn't allowed to move on in life if this is what she really wants? Then if I do intervene, shut it all down, she'll just get smarter and find ways to communicate that I won't know about. 

This could spell disaster no matter what way I handle it... which is why I'm so worried... Remember, the woman is a lesbian and many of them actually "hate" men... some of them are also vindictive and this could also present future problems especially if they money and resources.

I know she still cares about me, that's great... I know she still does love me, that's great too... but this infatuation for this woman is so strong now that she's seeing a new image of a life that could be and it could be really good, traveling, hotels, vegas twice a year, Panama, Cuba, so it's pretty enticing for her... If it were a man, that would be different because there aren't too many men that can compete with me because there's nothing wrong with the way I am as a husband or partner. She's never had a complaint about that.

This is a tough one because we're dealing with a different animal here... it's actually in "reverse" of what's normal when it's a lesbian affair... isn't it ????

I'm soooo confused.... How can I compete with a woman ????


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## insafemode (Oct 27, 2010)

5:28am, my Daughter calls me... she's at the airport waiting to fly to Mexico on holidays... I'm still awake and it's been exactly 24 hours... I just can't "turn off" for some reason...

I'm happy that she won't be around to hear all the garbage...

Thank you very much... I know that some people actually DO sleep... those were the "good old days".

I look forward to your help and thank you so much for responding, it really is greatly appreciated.


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## Nekko (Oct 13, 2009)

How about "look, i know what's happening here", followed by evidence and trying to keep her in the room and calm. Then "i know all this with this other woman looks great, we're all occasionally tempted by what's outside the fence, but you need to understand that this is a choice between me and her, before you make it, please do think back to all the happy moments we've had together and figure out if it's really worth giving all of this up for a couple of months of passion for which you know the ending to because you've done that before". The fact that she's been with that woman before and they broke up can definitely be used to your advantage. 

Then calmly explain you're not her toy, she can't hurt you and then expect you to just take her back like nothing happened. To get her to see you as attractive, you need to make her understand that you won't be there whatever it is she's doing. 

"traveling, hotels, vegas twice a year, Panama, Cuba" none of this counts if you're with the wrong person you don't get along with or are happy with. Try pointing that out. 

A woman is a human being. I doubt she's more appealing to her because she's a woman. She's more appealing because of what your wife is fantasizing about ...a better, more exciting, less boring life. It reminds her of a young, exciting, adventurous love she's had when she was a "kid". You're not competing with a woman per say, you're competing with what your wife thinks she's offering. What your wife thinks she's offering isn't the reality. Everything looks better when you look at it from the outside. 

These are not instructions. heck, they might not even be the right approach, but i'm suggesting things because seeing more versions might help you figure out what YOU need to do.


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## Nekko (Oct 13, 2009)

How about "look, i know what's happening here", followed by evidence and trying to keep her in the room and calm. Then "i know all this with this other woman looks great, we're all occasionally tempted by what's outside the fence, but you need to understand that this is a choice between me and her, before you make it, please do think back to all the happy moments we've had together and figure out if it's really worth giving all of this up for a couple of months of passion for which you know the ending to because you've done that before". The fact that she's been with that woman before and they broke up can definitely be used to your advantage. 

Then calmly explain you're not her toy, she can't hurt you and then expect you to just take her back like nothing happened. To get her to see you as attractive, you need to make her understand that you won't be there whatever it is she's doing. 

"traveling, hotels, vegas twice a year, Panama, Cuba" none of this counts if you're with the wrong person you don't get along with or are happy with. Try pointing that out. 

A woman is a human being. I doubt she's more appealing to her because she's a woman. She's more appealing because of what your wife is fantasizing about ...a better, more exciting, less boring life. It reminds her of a young, exciting, adventurous love she's had when she was a "kid". You're not competing with a woman per say, you're competing with what your wife thinks she's offering. What your wife thinks she's offering isn't the reality. Everything looks better when you look at it from the outside. 

These are not instructions. heck, they might not even be the right approach, but i'm suggesting things because seeing more versions might help you figure out what YOU need to do.


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## BigBadWolf (Nov 30, 2009)

Pay attention to the advice coming from Turnera, Affaircare and others, they can offer devastingly effective affair help.

Regarding handling your woman, and yes even dealing with lesbians, I can help absolutely.

As in all affairs, to end them and fix the marriage, you must get the mindset that you are willing to divorce and end the marriage as opposed to tolerating the affair. 

Ugly business, prepare yourself to fight, and fight hard.






insafemode said:


> Well, when I'm around her, I'm actually quite calm...


Excellent. 

Calm, confident, in control of yourself and your emotions. This is perfect.



> I never yell at her but instead explain things in a logical manner... the problem is, she isn't that logical... more emotional and she's pretty stubborn as well...


Logic, when dealing with your woman, is not always appropriate or necessary.

When dealing with your woman, better to worry about your own attitude, and control of yourself, than to focus on logic anyday.

She is stubborn? THen be 2X stubborn. Even 10X stubborn if necessary.



> She may storm out of the house when I show her the evidence... in fact, she probably will.... then the first person she'll call is of course - her lover.


THen let her. 

And if she does, make sure you neither beg or complain or cry, and instead, find some activity or hobby you enjoy doing and do it.

Take away ALL power of hers to manipulate, control, or influence your happiness in any way.

As far as your attitude and presentation of yourself to her, show that you will be happy and successful with or without her, that you prefer her to honor her marriage vows, conversely that you simply have too much self respect to put up with her shenanigans.

There are over 3 billion women in the world, and if your woman, if she is unwilling to give you the respect and attention and civil behavior you deserve and require and expect, you can certainly find another.

I understand this is hard, and you are in pain now, but this is important. Get this attitude, REALLY GET IT, as it will serve you well in dealing with your woman. 



> I'm confused as to whether I should ask her if she wants to stop this affair, or tell her to stop it.... or tell her I'm going to stop it whether she likes it or not...


Show her the evidence, tell her she needs to stop contacting this affair woman immediately and refocus on the marriage. 

Insist on marriage counceling together.

If she is unwilling to do stop the affiar, you must stand for yourself, and insist she move out and carry her shenigans elsewhere, and deal with the consequences of her actions (embarrassment to mother, family, friends, etc).



> I mean, do I really have that right to screw up someone's life, even if she is my wife ?


Her affair, her actions, her decisions, her consequences.

Your responsibility is two fold only, to fight tooth and nail for YOUR marriage, and stand up for YOURself. 

Do not lose focus of this, instead, focus like the laser on these two things.



> There are a lot of "subjective" issues here and who am I to say that she isn't allowed to move on in life if this is what she really wants?


You are confused and hurting, this is understood.

But the reality, nothing subjective at all.

IF your woman is wanting to "move on", then she will need to do it AFTER she has divorced you properly and then, only then, is it proper for her to engage in sexual relations with other people.

Do not treat her like a spoiled child, but like an adult.

As well, you yourself, expect to be treated with utmost respect as a man and the husband to your wife. The secret here is, more you do this, the more appealing you become and the less appealing the affair woman becomes.

The woman you are describing, emotional, stubborn, spoiled, lesbian tendancies, this kind of woman is not going to be happy with half a man, a quarter of a man, or a man that is acting like a boy, or a man that is being wishy-washy, as you seem to be doing on several of these issues.

I am here to tell you, this kind of woman will only walk all over you when you are like this.

This kind of woman, she is looking for her man to be her match, even the man who is not only not taking her crap, but enjoys the challenge and conflict of standing up to her and refusing to be put second in her life. 

This kind of man lights the fire in a woman like this.

The man that is control of himself, and his environment. The kind of man that knows what he wants, and has the mettle to pursue what he wants.

A man that is not willing or able to be this kind of man, will not hold a woman like this for too long. Take that to the bank.



> Then if I do intervene, shut it all down, she'll just get smarter and find ways to communicate that I won't know about.


Trust, after an affair, is difficult to rebuild.

Your job, to refuse to stand for the shenangans. 

Let her know you are not going to stand for it, and she can hit the road if she is that disrespectful to you. 

Your steadfast attitude, that you will be happy and successful with or without her. This attitude, you do not want to miss this!



> This could spell disaster no matter what way I handle it... which is why I'm so worried...


No, it is already disaster already. You need to see this for what it is.

Your woman, thinking she can have her cake and eat it too, to run around with her affair woman, and you are going to sit home and "fret" over losing this kind of woman?

COunt your blessings if you put a stop to this affair.

And as well, count your blessings if you lose her if she is unwilling to stop the shenanigans.

Either outcome, it is a plus for you.

You either return your marriage to integrity and respect, or your lose a woman that has no respect for you and you move on with your life.

Your happiness and success either way.

I know it is hard, but your woman, she has already rained this disaster over your head with her affair woman. Her decisions and actions and behavior have done this, not you.



> Remember, the woman is a lesbian and many of them actually "hate" men...


So what? :scratchhead:

Go through your life happy and successful, not relying ever on the approval or disapproval of a woman. 

See how much better your relationships get when your happiness is self derived by who you are, and not what some woman or other grants approval or not. 

See how many women come out of the woodwork and fall over themselves to be with such a man. 

Whether a lesbian likes or hates a good man, I simply can't imagine a scenario that would have less effect on him than this.



> some of them are also vindictive and this could also present future problems especially if they money and resources.


This, I simly do not understand this.

Do you think a lesbian with money is going to hold you hostage or someting? :scratchhead:

You have less than nothing to do with this affair woman. 

YOu are a married man trying to save his marriage.

YOu enlist the help and support of your family, your wife's family, and friends to save the marriage.

Of what threat is a lesbian affair woman with money to this?

Take a hard look at the resources and support you can muster being the good man trying to save your marraige from the shenanigans involving a lesbian affair woman. 

You will have a literal army willing to lend your hand to back you up.



> I know she still cares about me, that's great... I know she still does love me, that's great too...


How do you know these things?



> but this infatuation for this woman is so strong now that she's seeing a new image of a life that could be and it could be really good, traveling, hotels, vegas twice a year, Panama, Cuba, so it's pretty enticing for her...


Affairs, they are always enticing, even without the extra luxury of money.

Your job, fight for your marriage tooth and nail. All is fair in love and war, in affairs they look very much the same!  

In all this be the best man you can be for yourself, to always stand for yourself, and expect and require utmost respect for yourself.

Get to the gym, maintain immaculate hygience and dress well. Act and behave exactly as you would if you were dating. Resume whatever hobbies and interests you gave up in marriage, make yourself interesting and attractive. 

Again, all things, that you are going to be happy and successful with or without your woman. Eat, breathe, sleep, live this attitude 24/7.



> If it were a man, that would be different because there aren't too many men that can compete with me because there's nothing wrong with the way I am as a husband or partner. She's never had a complaint about that.
> 
> This is a tough one because we're dealing with a different animal here... it's actually in "reverse" of what's normal when it's a lesbian affair... isn't it ????
> 
> I'm soooo confused.... How can I compete with a woman ????


Do not be intimidated because the affair woman is a woman or a lesbian. Not one bit. 

In fact, in many ways it is to your advantage, for example, how your woman's mother reacted.

In my career, despite my reputation on this forum as somewhat old fashioned  , I spend much time working with diversity groups, including devoting much time with gays and lesbian proffesional organizations. 

So with my involvement in the GLBT group and community, I interact and have close professional and personal associations with many lesbians. Let me tell you, they will sh!t test a man like any other woman will, and once they see you are honest, and take no crap, like any woman they will respect and open up like any woman. 

No surprise, even the most diehard political charged "man hating" lesbian (they hate the caricature of men, and weak men that kiss their butts of course), they will still now and then hit on such a man that they respect, and some of my lesbian aquaintences have in joking (?) manner to me, expressing many times that if they were to cross over to the "dark side", that I would better watch out.  

So do not make this lesbian affair woman in your mind to be the bigger monster. She is an affair woman, and your scenario will need to be dealth with like any other affair.

How you are to act, behave, and move forward, is no different whether an affair woman or affair man.

Just this, whether an affair man or woman, your woman is trying to have her cake and eat it too, while walking over you like a doormat.

Do not be afraid to p!ss of your woman. Loose that power she has over you.

Do not hinge your happiness on approval or disapproval of your woman (or any woman ever). Loose that power she has over you.

Do not be afraid to lose your woman. Loose that power she has over you.


Focus on your marriage. Enlist whatever help, support, resources you need to muster, many people, friends and family, ready and willing to lend a hand to help you with the noble task of saving your marriage.

Focus on yourself. Dating mode. Be the best, happiest, calm, confident, in control good man you can be. 

This is the way to stop the shenigans, and if your woman is ever going to respect you and return to being attracted to you and leaving all affair women and men in the dust, this is the only way it will ever happen.

Set a very vivid and firm vision for your marriage and yourself, and stop at nothing to achieve this vision and make it your reality!

Again, turnera, affaircare, taylornpete and others, they can help you very specifically to deal step by step to smash the affair and get on with your happiness. Listen to their wisdom!

I wish you well.


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## HopeinHouston (Mar 1, 2010)

You are allready getting very good advice from multiple people here, I will just stress something that I don't feel has been stressed enough. And I am someone who also had a cheating wife. DO NOT FOLLOW YOUR PLAN AS OUTLINED IN THE INITIAL POST. It will not be helpful, I promise you that sort of confrontation will guarantee to push her further away. There are ways to handle it. My marriage was saved, in large part from advice I received here (as well as great help from my pastor and a counselor he hooked us up with - but they also follow very similar advice to what you get here). I know it makes you feel good to think about doing this sort of thing, but DO NOT GO THROUGH WITH IT. 

Calm down, breathe, and listen to those around here.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Have you read the 7 steps yet? Follow those steps. Confront her with the evidence and tell her you want her to stop. When she refuses, and she likely will, then you calmly tell her you will NOT accept a marriage with a third person in it. If she wants to have this third person, she can do it from somewhere else. You are not leaving, SHE is. And she's leaving WITHOUT your money. Her choice.

If she still refuses to end it, call one person she cares about most, and tell that person what she's doing. Ask that person to talk to her. If that doesn't work, the next step is to expose it to the rest of her important people - shine a big bright light on her nasty affair so it no longer looks fun or exciting, but rather shameful. Then step back and let her have her consequences. More later, but do these things first.


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## insafemode (Oct 27, 2010)

THANK YOU SO MUCH...

Your insight on this is nothing short of astonishing...

My only fear now... well, I have a few...

1. That once I show her the evidence, I'll never be able to check on her again... and that really throws an iron into the fire of keeping an eye on her activity.
2. That once I show her the evidence, she'll stab me with a knife... which is VERY possible. If she doesn't, then I MIGHT have a chance.
3. I want to e-mail this other woman and have her stop all communication and do it at the same time I produce the evidence... I think this is a good idea as well and to also change my wife's passwords to the e-mail accounts. I wonder if there's a legal issue involved with doing that... but then again, someone would have to complain first.

I still haven't slept and it's now been 33 hours that I've been awake... starting to feel worn out...


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

Sorry. Sleep deprevation is expected. You are not losing your mind. Your reactions are very typical. But you need to put your head down and try to get some rest. It is likely you can't sleep becasue your mind is racing. I suggest you try sleeping with some music on or tv volume up. You need to get your mind off of this. You might consider seeing your doctor or going to the emergency room. An anti-anxiety medication would help you as well as a sleep aid. I didn't employ any meds as the music worked for me sufficiently. But you might consult a doctor anyway to be on the safe side. You judgment will be affected by your lack of sleep. You shouldn't make any life altering decisions in that state.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

Read through your thread, and I see a lot of hope for you. Like a lot of other people here, I advise you slow down, and concentrate on your health. Get some sleep. My advice: do NOT get involved with anti-anxiety pharmaceuticals - if anything, do it more naturally - get some Melatonin and use that to help you. Try ST. John's Wort. But NO drugs. All that does is postpone and eventually create more problems that they advertise to solve.

Second: 



> 1. That once I show her the evidence, I'll never be able to check on her again... and that really throws an iron into the fire of keeping an eye on her activity.


You will always be able to check on her again - it may just take more work. But that is pretty much irrelevant. Your initial step is to simply _confront_, let her know you have proof, and ask her to stop. That is all you have to do: it puts the affair on notice that it is going to cause a LOT of trouble if it doesn't stop. Make the statement and let her make the choice. You can't _force_ her (morally) to do anything. All you can do is give her options, with specific consequences bound to each choice. Save copies of your evidence - you may need it later for other reasons. 

No threats, no begging, no whining, stay away from all forms of control.



> That once I show her the evidence, she'll stab me with a knife... which is VERY possible. If she doesn't, then I MIGHT have a chance.


If she gets that violent, there is more at issue here than an affair: that action will pretty much stop the affair as she ends up in prison, etc. My guess is that this is hyperbole, and your imagination running away with you. Expect her to get angry - that is very common. But that also passes. 



> 3. I want to e-mail this other woman and have her stop all communication and do it at the same time I produce the evidence... I think this is a good idea as well and to also change my wife's passwords to the e-mail accounts. I wonder if there's a legal issue involved with doing that... but then again, someone would have to complain first.


It would be nice to have that much influence over this Other Woman, but not likely to happen. All you could do is write her, let her know you love your wife and intend to work on your marriage - and _ask_ her to back off. Probably not going to happen. Regardless: do this ONE TIME ONLY and then NEVER contact that woman again. Your priority is your marriage, not running the life of someone else. And the ideal is to establish NO CONTACT _ever_ with this woman - for both your wife AND you.

Next: do not change your wife's email passwords. Instead, ask her to do it. What you really need is access to her accounts - just as she should have access to yours. However, you don't own those accounts (they are not yours) and you would not expect her to treat you in this fashion. These are things you work on _together_. If you do recover your marriage, it will not be through using such control mechanisms - all that will do is give your wife impetus to create NEW, more secret email accounts, and strengthen the affair. Treat your wife as an equal, if not somewhat mislead, individual. She is NOT your child, nor can you claim ownership of her (as if she were property) - your marriage vow is a voluntary contract between you two, not a purchase receipt!

My advice: do NOTHING deceitful in the entire time you fight for your marriage (or, for the rest of your life, either.) Immoral behavior is not justified as a response to prior immoral behavior. Instead, it creates problems when none need exist. 

This is not to say that you won't do things that upset your wife, nor things that she may claim are wrong (for example, checking her phone records & email.)

I can't state strongly enough that you be deliberate, and act with absolute moral certainty in this entire ordeal. Don't give your wife any real reasons to justify her behavior - in fact, study the past and try to end, or rectify, any behavior that helped to create this new situation. Think everything through, do everything with a clear plan and strong reasons. Take every effort to be moral, caring, loving, strong, and steady.


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## insafemode (Oct 27, 2010)

SOUND ADVICE...

I'm not going to ignore what you're telling me... If I do that, it'll defeat the purpose of this site and circumvent everything I've been told and your efforts as well. The only problem I'm having with the advice is that it all seems so "mundane" or "passive" without any aggression. I understand it's important not to come across like a raging lunatic and that's not my character but in order for her to "fear" losing everything, I'm thinking it should somehow be a little more powerful than just, well, here's my evidence and I'm not a happy guy... I'll get laughed at because she has a very powerful persona (my fault).

I need to do this on Friday so it gives me the weekend with her not being at the office. On weekends, it's tough for her to communicate with her lover, so Friday is the day.

I think I'll have to provide some proof and evidence so she understands how this has damaged me as well... she does need to see what she's done to me too... right? 

Just the shock alone of me knowing, will not be enough... she needs to see a little power or she'll walk all over me... well... she'll try... then I'm forced with no option but to get more powerful verbally and I want to avoid that.

I think she needs total shock with incredible evidence that I've seen absolutely every single word she's ever written... every sexually private little bit... all of it... only then will she see my capabilities and the damage she's caused, without me being verbally abusive or controlling or too confrontational... then it'll PROVE that she can't get away with anything! The reason I'm thinking this is that if she feels that there's even a small percentage that she can get away with, she will use that small percentage and believe that she can somehow get away with more... further, if the relationship really does go bad, she'll also believe that she can beat me in other ways, like legally and financially... doesn't that make sense? If she thinks she can't get away with anything at all, then there's no sense in her trying anything else.

I think this is what I'm really after... total and complete exposure with the same shock and impact that I felt when I discovered the affair. Now that's a memory that won't easily go away... and yet, it would have all done by her, not me... with no aggression on my part. My aggression will be the total exposure of everything she has done...

I think I'm losing my marbles...


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## insafemode (Oct 27, 2010)

BTW - Being moral, caring, loving and supportive is what I do best and is why we've been together for so long.

Before our relationship, she was diagnosed with Clinical Depression and they have her on Zoloft all the time... but the Zoloft makes her "too" friendly and has caused its own problems.

She also tried to stab me before... but that was about 14 years ago... she has never been physically violent since... just a big mouth piece... if you know what I mean.

I thinking now that I should keep it really simple and just show her that I know everything she's ever written... then there's nothing to hide and I haven't done anything wrong and if I can be supportive after knowing everything in her secret affair, I'll come out of this with respect from her and pride for myself.

Am I on the right track ???


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Insafemode~

I told you I'd write back today, remember? The very first thing I note is that you have not slept, and when a person does not sleep, in real life they do not think clearly. Thus, I more than strongly urge you to turn off this computer, take a melatonin and sleep. Melatonin is a naturally occurring hormone that can ease insomnia. So get to the nearest Walmart or Walgreens and get some! When you have slept, then come back and read the rest of what I write in the next post. Okay? 

Good night!


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Don't give her the whole mountain of evidence. Or even teh most damning piece.

If you feel like you have to wave proof in front of her, just give her one of the older items and tell her you know what she is doing.

When she denies, and she will, give her one more piece of information from a later time period.

Then draw your line in the sand.

BTW, if shes stabbed you before 16 years ago why are you with her at all?


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Turn off the computer and go to sleep now. Stop reading. 







Are you still here? Go on! Shut it off! We'll be here and so will your mountain of evidence. None of this will end because you sleep, but YOU will be able to deal with it FAR MORE EFFECTIVELY if you are in command of your mind. 

So go! Right now. See the red X up there? Click it. See you in a little bit. :sleeping:


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## insafemode (Oct 27, 2010)

It's ok... I slept for 2 hours and I was really out ! I feel great now !

I've been taking care of myself and having protein drinks and vitamins every day but my energy levels are so high and I'm not moving around too much, so I'm not getting tired very easily.

She didn't end up stabbing me way back then... she pulled a knife and was trying (in a pathetic way) and I stopped her, then she just smashed a few things and calmed down... I can't even remember why it all happened.

If I try the method of showing her a tidbit, then another piece of info, she'll start ransacking the whole house looking for the rest... wanting to know what I know and how much I know... then terrorizing me to find out more.

If she's "TOTALLY AND COMPLETELY BEATEN" by seeing everything, then there's nothing to look for, nothing more to ask me and she may just give up and concede to try and solve the problems.

I don't know, I've never had to do this before ! She could try to commit suicide... I have no idea what will happen... she's like a loose cannon.

I've been convinced of one thing all these years, with her depression, mood swings, PMS and everything combined, I'm under the impression that I'm the right person to be her partner because I have experience in dealing with all her issues and know how to help her when she's feeling crummy... It would take a lot or at least a long time for someone else to come up to that level of understanding and patience.

I only have one more day and I still need to print everything... and that's a huge job that needs to be done early, just in case I need to add or remove, clean up everything on the computer etc... so there's some preparation needed.

I'm pretty scared... that's one thing I can say for sure...


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

I need to point out something to you. You yourself have said you've never been through this before, and there are those of us here who not only have been through it personally, but also have been through this with MANY, MANY others. Nope, I can't give you names because that's breaking confidentiality, but if you looked around here on TAM at all, you'd see several. My point though is that you are exhausted, you are in some level of "freak out mode," and you haven't done this before. We have. 

However, I note that as people give you advice, you tend to say, "Well that's good *but*..." Insafemode, you need to keep your 'but' out of it! :lol: It's your 'but' and it's getting in the way. :lol: 

We've been there and we can help ya through this, but not if you hear what we have to say and then go off and do your own thing. So I want you to think about this one thing: Why would you come here to get advice from people who've been through this rodeo...and then not listen to it? That doesn't make sense, does it? It would make more sense to hear what people say, take time to CONSIDER what has been said and/or why, and then think of how to apply that to you and your circumstance. 

So if you want to start printing that's cool--while you print READ what people have written and read some more on our site (like How Affairs Start). Then really consider why you are so resistant to listening to others. I know that FOR YOU this situation is absolutely unique and seems completely different than everyone else's...but you know what? The concepts are the same. What she'll say or how she'll react will also be very much the same. I'm telling you, we do know what to do and how to help you, but in the end you will have to decide if you're willing to trust us and let us help you or not. 

Now, while you print and read, I am writing a big, long reply to all that has occurred.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

*PART ONE: *​

Before I even go on, I'm going to assume you have read Seven Steps to Ending the Affair. I am not going to re-iterate what is said in that article, so if you haven't read it yet, go click, read it, and familiarize yourself with the steps. 

You say that your plan, this Friday is: 


> 1. ...to have over 600 pages of all her e-mails printed and put into a 3 ring binder and wrap it in gift paper.
> 2. I'm going to "grill" her once again so she tells all the same lies one more time, so they're all "fresh lies".
> 3. I'm going to give her the "evidence" and show her what a rotten idiot she's been and that she's going to lose her job, her Mother, Me, Her family, her beautiful home and the beautiful pets we have... everything will be gone...
> 4. I'm going to e-mail the "woman" and tell her that she must immediately stop all communication with my wife and if she doesn't, I'm going to put forward a tort-feasor against her and sue her for interference. (like that'll work!)
> 5. I'm going to change her passwords on the computer and tell her that she must call work and take a 1 week leave of absence for family problems (they'll let her).


Allow me to go in order and point out the flaws in your logic and why this plan is not wise and won't work. Then let me show you some suggestions that WOULD make this a workable plan. 

*For #1: *
Flaws: The reason a loyal spouse (LS) gathers evidence is usually because the disloyal spouse (DS) has been telling them it's nothing, or that the LS has trust issues or jealousy issues, etc. yet the LS has that nagging gut feeling that something's going on. Thus the need to gather evidence is for the LS's sake--to prove that they can not trust the honesty of their DS but they CAN trust themselves and their intuition. In your case, you have plenty of proof that it's real, it's not in your mind or your issue, and you can trust your gut. Further, if you present her with 600 pages of her sexually charged emails, it's the rough equivalent of the saying to your enemy: "Now before we go to war, here's a list of the weapons I have." You have no ace in the hole; no secret you can use to confirm honesty or use as a surprise. 

Recommendations: I like your reasoning about doing it on Friday--that's VERY sound. I would suggest that rather than give her all 600 pages printed out, that you print them all, put them in a notebook, maybe even show her the notebook so she can see how big 600 pages printed out IS! But show her either the most damaging ones that clearly indicate breaking the vows, or show her the last month's worth or some extremely recent timeframe. This shows it's happening NOW and it's not over, so she can't say "Well that's in the past. We broke it off" etc.

*For #2: *
Flaws: The biggest flaw I see in this one is that you're going to "grill" her. This may have been a poor choice of wording, but I suspect not. This indicates to me that you would be willing to aggressively interrogate the woman you love as if this is the Spanish Inquisition. Insafemode, her wrong behavior does not give you the right to also participate in wrong behavior, so "grilling" her is the wrong tactic. This would be a Love Extinguisher What Is An Affair? 

Recommendation: I understand the theory behind this one--have her say the lies again now so they are "fresh lies" and you are dealing with lies she said now, today rather than anomalous lies from the recent past. However, we've crossed now from step one (Gather Evidence) to step two (Confront). In step two, the goal is not to "make" her confess by the sheer magnitude of the evidence. Shoot I've known DS's who were caught red-handed in the act, and as they put their clothes back on they said "It's not what it looks like!" So when you Confront, the goal is for YOU to state that you know, tell her what you think and feel without love extinguishing, and then ask for what you need. Thus I recommend skipping this "grilling" step altogether. This is you releasing your anger on her, and I suspect that is a big part of why she's looking outside the marriage for affection. 


*For #3:*
Flaws: A) You're giving her the evidence; refer to "giving your enemy a list of your weaponry" above. B) You are calling her names by saying she's a rotten idiot; calling a person names is verbal abuse. C) You are threatening her. Not ONE of these behaviors will work in a positive way to save your marriage or give her a reason to want to come back; in fact every one of them will work the exact opposite. In real life, giving her all the evidence will let her know exactly how to fight you if it were to become legal, the verbal abuse will drive her further away and threatening her (when combined with verbal abuse) will give her legal precedent to serve you with a restraining order, AND if she were to divorce you and go be with the Other Woman (OW), she may not lose her job, or her mother, or her own family. Like #2, I suspect calling names and threats may be a big part of why she's looking outside the marriage for affection. 

Recommendations: Oh DEFINITELY skip this step. Just skip it. Next...

*For #4:*
Flaws: There are two major flaws with contacting the OW and making a legal threat. First, you can not control her. In real life, you can not control your wife either. The only person you can control is YOU, and rather than getting the rest you need, listening to people who are trying to help you, and acting on a well-thought-out plan, you are too busy trying to control your wife and the OW! So telling the OW "she has to <insert demand here>" is a fruitless waste of time and energy. Second, when you make a legal threat like that, there is a more than 50/50 chance she'll call your bluff. Then what? 

Recommendation: Rather than contacting OW and making threats, I suggest that you follow the plan for Step Two Confrontation. What does that say? Speak to your wife--after all she is the one who did make a promise to you, not the OW. The OW owes you NOTHING! Speak to your wife, state that you know she is committing adultery, tell her what you think and feel without love extinguishing (for example, you would state YOUR boundary and don't try to control her), and then directly ask her to end the affair and return to the marriage. Period. She (your wife) is absolutely free to choose to either give 100% of her affection and loyalty to you (thereby honoring her vows) or leave. 

*For #5:* 
Flaws: Again I see some pretty major flaws with this one. You can not "make" her do anything and you don't have the right to change her passwords on the computer. Like #2 and #3, I suspect interrogating, calling names, threatening, and trying to force her to do things against her will ARE very big parts of why she's looking outside the marriage for affection! These are YOUR actions and YOUR choices, and you can not blame her for what you are choosing to do. This is why we have suggested to you that you get some rest--so you can think more clearly and not out of knee-jerk emotion.

Recommendation: Well personally I again suggest Step Two Confrontation. Speak to your wife, state that you know she is committing adultery, tell her what you think and feel without love extinguishing (for example, you would state YOUR boundary and don't try to control her), and then directly ask her to end the affair and return to the marriage. Some of the boundaries around returning to the marriage would be things like SHARING each other's email passwords and full access to cell phones, etc. AND it would be ending all contact with the OW ever and taking some time off together to reconnect. But we can get into that more when the time comes. Right now, the important thing is stating that you know, and directly saying, "I'm asking you now to do the right thing, return to honor your marriage vows, and end your affair so we can work on our marriage."


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## insafemode (Oct 27, 2010)

I UNDERSTAND AND COMPLETELY AGREE...

I know I've been "venting" out of frustration and I guess my first instinct would be "posturing" by having her admit to more lies and making these lies more substantial as they were said minutes before the evidence was produced.

This is why this site is good... especially for me... I've been "honing" the game plan as I go and have decided to just keep it simple because that's what will probably happen anyway since It's so difficult for me to be mean to her in any given situation.

She may end up being her worst enemy...

I guess she'll end up wanting to see the entire binder of e-mails if I only show her 1 or 2 or a months' worth... so I'm not sure what to do in that situation when she wants to see the rest of the evidence and she's running after me (maybe with a knife) and I have the binder in my arms... hahaha I know... it's not funny but I haven't laughed in 3 months...

Then the best way is to just keep it simple and firm and stand my ground with my decision for her to end the affair or leave... 

she might just leave...


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> I guess she'll end up wanting to see the entire binder of e-mails if I only show her 1 or 2 or a months' worth... so I'm not sure what to do in that situation when she wants to see the rest of the evidence and she's running after me (maybe with a knife) and I have the binder in my arms... hahaha I know... it's not funny but I haven't laughed in 3 months...


She might. But you are not constrained to show her. There is no need to even let her know you have more. Keep it somewhere safe. You might need it later.



> Then the best way is to just keep it simple and firm and stand my ground with my decision for her to end the affair or leave...
> 
> she might just leave...


She might. But that does not mean the end. You have the same choices ahead of you, regardless of on which piece of furniture she sleeps....




> If I try the method of showing her a tidbit, then another piece of info, she'll start ransacking the whole house looking for the rest... wanting to know what I know and how much I know... then terrorizing me to find out more.


A) Don't keep it in the house. 

B) LET her ransack. LET her worry. 

C) Keep in mind that the ONLY reason she might worry about evidence is if she doesn't WANT you to know what is going on. And keep this in mind: if it didn't matter to her, the evidence would mean nothing to her. The fact that it causes an emotional reaction is most likely proof that she doesn't want to lose you. The only time you should really worry about this is if she was unaffected by the thought that you might 'know' - that would mean she is already gone. 



> she's "TOTALLY AND COMPLETELY BEATEN" by seeing everything, then there's nothing to look for, nothing more to ask me and she may just give up and concede to try and solve the problems.


This so rarely happens it is almost statistically non-existent. People either concede the affair and want to work on the marriage right away, or they deny ANY evidence you present, and it takes more significant steps to bring them home. 

The reason you show her the evidence is in HOPE that she might fall into the first category - but it is no guarantee. There are more steps that follow, each building on the last. This is just ONE of the steps (and only the second). 

Suggestion: don't print it all. SAVE it somewhere to print later, as needed. If she responds to evidence, it will be REGARDLESS of the quantity. If she is that close to breaking the affair, she already is in a position to concede. 

Here's the issue: You cannot _will_ her to change your mind. You can't manipulate the environment so that she is forced to concede. Instead, your job is to combat the affair. Accounting for every molecule of air she may have breathed, ever calorie she may have consumed - is simply a waste of time. Instead, make life at home a place where it is IMPOSSIBLE to carry on an affair. And if she moves out: so be it - she will learn just how much she depends on you, eh?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

First, have you read affaircare's posts? What do you think of them? How is it changing your plan?

Second, your BIGGEST mistake here is ASSUMING you know what she'll do and making your plans based on what you ASSUME she will do.

She won't.

So stop making plans.

Follow affaircare's plan. IT WORKS.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Oh, and third, make TWO copies of your proof, and store one copy at your work or at the bank, or somewhere else safe.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

*PART TWO:*​


> I'm confused as to whether I should ask her if she wants to stop this affair, or tell her to stop it.... or tell her I'm going to stop it whether she likes it or not... I mean, do I really have that right to screw up someone's life, even if she is my wife ?


Okay do you see here where the flaw is in your thinking? There is a difference between a boundary and force or control. There is also a difference between making yourself an attract option and making her affair an unattractive option. Your question here is all about MAKING her do what you want to do and forcing her to do things against her own will. Now you tell me: if she treated YOU like that, forcing you do do things against your will, would that make you "want" her or want to be with her? Or would it make you want to get away and look elsewhere? 

So you can ask her to stop, and I don't mean begging and pleading. I mean you state what you request, in a firm and clear way. You state that the boundary you put around yourself is that you will only be with a life partner who honors her promise to give you 100% of her affection and loyalty. You state that you will accept nothing less than that. But she is 100% free to make her own choices. She's free to return to you and have all the benefits of being with you--and you will be working on eliminating those Love Extinguisher actions such as controlling, name calling, etc. OR she's free to continue the affair and lose all the benefits of being with you--you will NOT participate in supporting, promoting or funding adultery. This way you take the high road, you hold yourself to a standard of behavior that acknowledges personal responsibility, and you control YOU but you don't control HER. 



> This is a tough one because we're dealing with a different animal here... it's actually in "reverse" of what's normal when it's a lesbian affair... isn't it ???? I'm soooo confused.... How can I compete with a woman ????


Actually not really. Okay the Other Person (OP) is a female person, not a male person, but other than that it's pretty much the same animal: namely infidelity. Fidelity is giving 100% of your affection and loyalty to the one to whom you promised it--and being unfaithful is giving it to someone other than your spouse: whether that's another man, another woman, or several people. Some unfaithful spouses don't have one affair with one OP but rather have an attitude of unfaithful, flirtatious, secretive "friendships" with several people at once! So the "male" "female" part doesn't mean it's the reverse. At the core, it's still the same: some of the actions that used to kindle her love have ended and the actions that extinguish love are increasing exponentially... so along came another person (could be a male or a female) who was doing things that kindled love for them! Plus there is some extra advantage that women understand other women so if nothing else she may feel more understood and accepted by another female. 

So addressing this affair will be exactly like addressing a heterosexual affair. It will be the same steps. And by the way, I know almost everyone says, "Well each instance is different! You have to adjust the steps to fit the circumstances." Yes and no. You would still "gather evidence" but some people are PC-literate and can already do that or like you they already have plenty of evidence--some are more elusive and hide it better. So you still do that step but adjust within the step to the circumstances. You still "confront" but if she's previously tried to stab you, for your own protection you might ask a trusted friend to be present for safety. Get it? You still do the steps but some subtle changes are made within the step to fit you. 



BigBadWolf said:


> "Logic, when dealing with your woman, is not always appropriate or necessary. ...When dealing with your woman, better to worry about your own attitude, and control of yourself, than to focus on logic anyday."


Just to be clear, what BigBadWolf wrote to you is spot on the money. I suggest you read and re-read that until it makes sense to you. But on this one quote I wouldn't say I disagree with him so much as I want to be sure it's clear. Right now, female human in your household may LOOK like your wife and SOUND like your wife, but it is not the person you know as your wife. You've known her for decades and know her true personality type--you probably think of her as smart, funny, pleasant, sexy, and fairly reasonable. In the DS state, it is almost as if someone takes over your wife's body and she becomes almost the exact opposite of what you know of her. She is no longer smart enough to realize that leaving you and hurting her own children means losing her family. She's no longer reasonable either. MANY, MANY loyals make the mistake of thinking "If I can only reason with her, she'll see that the cost of carrying on this affair is too high...." or something like that. NOTHING could be further from the truth. I'm telling you know--point blank--that using logic in that way will not convince her to stop and will not work. It just won't! I think that's what BBW was trying to say here. Do not depend on giving her adequate reasons to end the affair, because right now, she is NOT rational. On the other hand, it is imperative that you remain as rational and logical as you can. It is vital that you counter her irrational, emotional, highly charged rehtoric with calm ration and reason backed by a firm, stable plan. Make sense?


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

*PART THREE: *​


> The only problem I'm having with the advice is that it all seems so "mundane" or "passive" without any aggression. I understand it's important not to come across like a raging lunatic and that's not my character but in order for her to "fear" losing everything, I'm thinking it should somehow be a little more powerful than just, well, here's my evidence and I'm not a happy guy... I'll get laughed at because she has a very powerful persona (my fault).


Okay good point, I think I hear what you're saying. Which would be more attractive to her "more powerful persona"?

A man who says, "I am a fully grown adult, and fully responsible for my own choices in life. I expect my life partner to treat me with the same dignity and respect that she wants me to treat HER with, and I will accept no less. You are completely free to choose to honor your promise and give me 100% of your affection and loyalty, in which case we can buld a better marriage. Or you are just as free to continue your affair, in which case I will not tolerate that behavior in our marital home and we will separate." 

Or a man who is agressive and tries to MAKE her respect him by force, manipulation, threats and abuse?

A man who is able to focus on how he contributed and take personal responsibility for the actions he did that caused damage--AND work on himself to be a better man?

Or the man only looks at what HER affair and blames HER and all your actions "made" him go ballistic and act like a raging lunatic? 

To be honest, chances are about 100:1 that she won't like being treated assertively for two reasons: a) it goes against her affair fantasy and b) you are bringing the truth to the light of day. In her fantasy, her and her lover continue their secret, forbidden rendevous and when you discover it you are so mortified you bury it and don't rock the boat. Also, you're supposed to cooperate in keeping it secret because you don't want others to know and "it just between us." I knew of a person once who's spouse was having an affair and the disloyal went to a boss and said she was leaving him because he yelled at her for two hours. When the person asked "Did you tell him it was because I just found out you were cheating on me?" she said, "Oh I didn't think that was any of his business."  :bsflag: Seriously! I'm not kidding! So I would say she will almost certainly be angry, defiant, and probably seek to blame shift with something like, "How DARE YOU invade my privacy like that." Just ignore that. The point of Step Two Confront is for you. It's to give you some self-respect back, say that you know, and say that you're willing to work and move forward but the affair has to end. That's non-negotiable. It also does give her to opportunity to end it with dignity and between you two if she chooses to do so! So nope, it probably won't inspire "fear" but come on--do you want to treat the woman you love like that? Inspire reverence maybe, but not fear. 



> I think I'll have to provide some proof and evidence so she understands how this has damaged me as well... she does need to see what she's done to me too... right?


This is actually an EXCELLENT question. At this time I can pretty much guarantee you that if you went to her and told her she is tearing your heart out, she wouldn't care a whole lot. Now, I'm not being mean or assuming, but just statistically the typical DS response would be "So? You tore out mine for years and didn't give a [email protected] when I asked you to stop. Why should I care now?" So she will probably not see what she's done to you or to the kids, and even if she does see it, there's a very slim chance it would motivate her to change at all. I don't really suggest this as valid reasoning or as a goal. 

HOWEVER, I do suggest being honest with her and letting her know that you ARE hurting and you ARE frantic and grieving, because even though it may or may not sway her, it is good for you. You would do it because you want to practice being honest with your spouse and because sharing is one of the kindler actions that would lead to getting her back. So the motivation is not "...make her see the hurt to get her to come home"--it's "be honest with her so she knows what I'm feeling and how it's affecting me." Do NOT (I repeat: NOT) expect sympathy, empathy or support. Just make the statement. 




> I think she needs total shock with incredible evidence that I've seen absolutely every single word she's ever written... every sexually private little bit... all of it... only then will she see my capabilities and the damage she's caused, without me being verbally abusive or controlling or too confrontational... then it'll PROVE that she can't get away with anything!
> 
> I think this is what I'm really after... total and complete exposure with the same shock and impact that I felt when I discovered the affair.


Again, there is a flaw in this reasoning. You want to hurt her back (basically) and that is not the behavior that will build a good, solid, honest, loving marriage. What we are trying to encourage here is ending actions that hurt the marriage and re-starting actions that BUILD the marriage, and that is in everything from simply talking to each other, to doing this Step Two Confrontation. If your wife does an action that hurts you, you do not then have the right to do something that hurts her back. Know what I mean? There is a cliche that "two wrongs don't make a right" but there is more to that. As a man who is personally responsible, even if she is a whirlwind tornado of wrongdoing, that in no way means you have to join her in the wrongdoing! Let her storm away--you stay absolutely FIRM in constantly acting and doing what is RIGHT even in the face of her awful choices. If you do otherwise, you are just stooping to her level. 

In this instance, you could show her the last 20 pages, and tell her you do have a notebook with the other 580 pages printed out. You may even show her that the book exists. But your goal her is not to CRUSH HER like she crushed you. Your goal is to be her husband, get your feet under you, and stand firm for your marriage. Envision a lighthouse on the coast, and she's in a ship in the middle of a horrible storm. You stand there--FIRM and CLEAR--like a light guiding her safely back. She may decide to turn into the storm (that's her choice) but you don't dim your light by diving in too. You STAND.


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## insafemode (Oct 27, 2010)

POINTS WELL TAKEN...

I do understand the concept, especially that two wrongs don't make a right and by me "crushing her" with the proof of infidelity will do exactly that... and probably a few pages will do exactly that anyway.

I should mention... in Canada, infidelity means 100% of nothing... zero, zilch... A spouse can cheat on her husband 1000 times and the courts DO NOT recognize it and will not even address the issue and have it struck from the records. Here in Canada, you're free to be the biggest piece of crap on this side of the planet and get away with it legally... it is not grounds for divorce, and the only reason they will grant a divorce is for "irreconcilable differences" and that's what they tell everyone to put on the application. I know in some States in the US, it's different and adultery is actually grounds for divorce and has bearing on settlement, but not here.

I need to start from the beginning here... and go through all the info you've written and do each step in the process... no matter how much it hurts... and give it a shot... At least it's a smart way to start because if it doesn't work, I can always step it a notch as time goes by... I guess...

It does make sense because being "brutal" from the get-go will only leave her with memories of me being terrible about it... and that doesn't solve anything. I know, I know... I finally get it...

My discussions here are not necessarily reflective of what will actually happen in the application of it all, but all I'm saying is "at what point does she have to take responsibility for what she's done?"

I think she has to "get away with it" and for me to digest it and swallow all the pain, in order to save the marriage.... and that will leave me like a boiled chicken... with a saved marriage...


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

insafemode said:


> It's ok... I slept for 2 hours and I was really out ! I feel great now !
> 
> I've been taking care of myself and having protein drinks and vitamins every day but my energy levels are so high and I'm not moving around too much, so I'm not getting tired very easily.
> 
> ...


Insafemode, you are a codependent. A Rescuer.

You can’t rescue someone from themselves.

Only they can do that, when they want to. That’s usually after they’ve hit rock bottom.

Until that time while you’re trying to pull them out of what you see as their pit they will pull you down with them.

You are trying to resist the forces of nature by telling someone else their way is wrong. They will see you as the crazy one. It will not help either you or her.

You have removed your rescuer hat and put your persecutor hat on.

Be exceedingly aware of that and the intense anger that goes with it.

Do nothing with your anger other than walk away if you do confront your wife in the way you plan.

Bob


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## insafemode (Oct 27, 2010)

This is now the 5th time I've written... I've deleted all the others...

It's amazing how everyone here is so supportive and with constructive support and criticism that is only to benefit this relationship... I'm truly without words that there are people out there with hearts of gold to help other people with such personal problems. 

I know I've sounded cynical and I guess our pain bleeds into the problem solving process but like the advice I've received here, the line must be drawn at a certain point.

I wonder where my line is....


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

insafemode said:


> I wonder where my line is....


So do I “In-Safe-Mode”. What does that mean?

Bob


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## insafemode (Oct 27, 2010)

If you're in Portugal, I'm surprised at how good your English is...

In Safe Mode has multiple meanings... it means that I'm playing it really safe now... and it's also a computer term because I didn't know what user name to use.

2 hours sleep in 3 days... no wonder I'm cynical... but I can't rest until I have a solution... this is how I am and this is far too serious to just let time go by sleeping when I could be learning and understanding the best course of action to take.

Hang on... I think I'm getting tired...... forget it, I'm waking up again...


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

insafemode said:


> If you're in Portugal, I'm surprised at how good your English is...
> 
> In Safe Mode has multiple meanings... it means that I'm playing it really safe now... and it's also a computer term because I didn't know what user name to use.
> 
> ...


Being English my English is pretty good and being English my Portuguese is pretty bad. Can get by most times with English but I do need to learn Portuguese.

Emotions do get exceedingly intense at these times. Very powerful things emotions and we learn that in these times. That’s one thing it teaches us. Going for a power walk or a really long walk can help calm them down. You need physical exercise and fresh air. It’s also distracting and therefore calming.

Watch out for the anger. That is a very powerful thing and can consume and take over.

Bob


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> Being English my English is pretty good and being English my Portuguese is pretty bad. Can get by most times with English but I do need to learn Portuguese.


LOL! I've always wanted to learn Portuguese because I love the poetry - always wanted to read it the way it is really written. Too old now. I'll have to stick with French...


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Well this is off topic but it may be a diversion for Insafemode.

I was in the newsagents this morning having a chat about Portuguese culture, which is an absolute delight. I was wondering if feminism had reached these shores. It has and they’re ok with it, think it a good thing but just ignore the fundamentalists.

A little lad walked in, tripped on the step and said something. I asked for a translation and he said “I tripped because I was thinking of yesterday” meaning his mind wasn’t on the job in hand. He was 4 or 5 years old. Apparently they use these types of phrases all the time, it’s embedded in their culture, a way of life. So I had the thought I’ll learn Portuguese by learning these types of phrases. I can get a beer ok, got that from day 2 here lol.

Bob
PS: One of my Portuguese friends was getting frustrated that I haven’t learnt the language. I said but it’s very difficult. No it isn’t he said, my three year old son speaks it.


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## insafemode (Oct 27, 2010)

I just wanted to give an update... 

I haven't done the intervention thing yet by showing her all the information I've gathered... I'm pretty scared about the way she might react... I have a feeling she'll get violent but as the days go by, she's getting more cold and distant.

I want to save this marriage but her lover is already asking her to marry her... it's really getting out of hand and now it's starting to douse the flame I have for her... and I don't want this to happen at all.

This is really an awful thing for people to go through...


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Insafemode~

The longer you put off speaking to her, the stronger foothold you give to the affair. You are voluntarily giving them more time to be come more deeper addicted to one another...and the harder it will be to end the affair and withdraw from the addiction. Your delay is making it HARDER for you!!

If you are literally afraid she will become violent toward you, then the issue here is not only infidelity (which is an enormous issue!) but also domestic violence! Since it does sound like you genuinely fear that she will physically harm you, I would say that not only do you need to worry about unfaithfulness but also abuse. And yes, it is absolutely possible for a woman to be abusive toward a man--mentally, physically, emotionally and verbally. Society has been spoon fed that it's usually MEN who perpetrate domestic violence on the WOMEN, and yet very often what happens is that he yells at her, she balls up her fist and hits (or slaps or grabs or pushes) him...and if he were to do that he'd be under arrest! My point here is not to argue that women are not abused in domestic violence but rather that they are not the ONLY victims--MEN can also be abused and it is just as wrong for a woman to abuse a man as it is for a man to abuse a woman! 

So if you're afraid, maybe your first step should be to take a look at this site: Dr. Irene's Verbal Abuse Site. Take a look at the Abuser pages and at the Victim pages so you can learn a little! Then on our site we do have a page to help you think deliberately about getting safe: The Domestic Violence Safety Plan. Your number one issue would be to get to a place where you are safe, and then to be honest with her and face this infidelity. For your own protection, talk to her about it at a restaurant or a public place (like a park) because she's less likely to stab you where others can see it. She'll most likely behave (somewhat) in public. 

Finally, if you need additional help putting together your Safety Plan and then your plan to do Step Two: Confront, I'd suggest contacting my Dear Hubby directly via PM--he's TanelornPete.


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## insafemode (Oct 27, 2010)

THANK YOU SO MUCH...

I think it's time to do this... but it may be too late at this stage...

The thing is... she's going to hate me even more when I confront her with all this... then she'll be consoled by her lover and that will move them even closer together... well... that's my guess.

The OW called this weekend... when I answered, she gave a fake name when I asked who it was... in their discussions, she said I had a lot of audacity to ask "who was calling".

They're getting more "brave" by the day and it's having an effect on my strength levels at the same time... I have a very strong soul but it's also very subdued because this is the woman I love and have loved for 18 years... and having my strengths "surface" in this battle means the diminishing of my love for her... in other words, the tougher I'm forced to be... the more the "flame" goes out of the love for her.... until I can't stand being around her anymore... and then even I cannot re-capture that love because too much damage will have been done at that point.

Honestly, I think some relationships are doomed and just cannot be saved... but the only way, is to try because for sure it's doomed if I don't do anything.

I still can't sleep properly and I think it's beginning to affect my health... I'm getting heart palpitations, skipped heart beats and dizziness... She just may be my undoing...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

isf, you can SURVIVE without her. You weren't born holding her hand. Chances are you wouldn't have died together, holding each other's hands. You are an individual and you CAN survive without her. And probably be a LOT happier, from the sound of it. 

I know it's hard to see when you're on the inside looking out, but we see a lot of problems with her that you've been glossing over, just to 'keep' her.

Don't you deserve more than that?


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## insafemode (Oct 27, 2010)

I've prepared all the evidence...
I made a cover page with photos of the other woman...
The introduction shows the seventh commandment - Thou shalt not commit Adultery... OK OK, I'M PUSHING IT WITH THAT ONE... but it's there...

I'm ready... but maybe it's the wrong way to tackle it with this woman... here's why:

She's going to keep communicating with this woman, even if I produce the proof... 
She'll find other ways of communicating and I'll lose my edge...
It'll make her absolutely hate me forever... and that's for sure ! 
I'll never be able to "un-do" what I did...
If things do go bad with her and the OW, she'll still hate me...
Right now, she has nothing to complain about, so "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"...
We have peace in the house but won't after this intervention...
She could get violent so that has me a little freaked out...
She could also get self-destructive, which isn't good either...

I'm really "stumped" on what to do...

When in doubt... DON'T DO ANYTHING... is my motto...

What do you think ???? Am I going crazy????

I feel like a doormat.... or a doorknob.... but if it keeps peace, maybe it's better ???


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Every betrayed spouse we have suggested to confront the cheating spouse has said the exact same thing:
He/she will HATE me if I do this: I KNOW it.

Doesn't happen.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Well as you know, my personal suggestion was to give her a copy of maybe the last MONTH'S worth of sexy emails, not all 600--and I do think putting a commandment on the front cover is a little bit over the edge (and I'm a Christian believer). 

Insafemode, I think you may be losing track of what you're doing and why. You are not trying to bury her in evidence or show her so much evidence she'll "have to confess" or even to embarrass her into ending it. This meeting is to inform her that you know what is going on, and it's not you being jealous or making things up--she is not being faithful for real. This meeting is let her know that you KNOW, but that you will not accept an unfaithful marriage partner and will not condone this behavior. This meeting is to ask her right out loud to end it right now. The word "ask" is important because you're not trying to "make" her do what she's unwilling to do, but you are basically saying: 

_"You can choose to stay and the cost of staying is ending all contact with the OW; or you can choose the OW but the cost of that is not living here, and I won't be meeting your needs including finances. But what WON"T be happening is things staying the way they are where you treat me with disrespect, lie to me, cover up what you're doing, and use me to meet some needs and your lover to meet others. I choose to not live like that. My choice."_

This is not to control her. She is absolutely 100% free to make any choice she wants. However, if she wants to be with you and the family-life you two have built, the price is 100% faithfulness and no more Other Woman. She may very well decide that she will not end it with the Other Woman and you won't tell her what to do. That's cool. Then the natural consequence of that decision is that she loses you and the benefits of you.

If you believe she may become violent, make moves to protect yourself. Talk to her in a somewhat public place where she won't attack you in front of someone...or have a friend present with you when you confront her. If you believe she'll do herself harm, then prepare for that possibility. Does she have a counselor she sees? Does she take any medications? Have 911 preprogrammed into your phone in case she does harm you or herself. 

BUT...I can guarantee you that she won't hate you forever. Now as an abuser, she may very well act aggressively to try to get you back under her control -- back under her thumb -- and she may make threats to try to get things "back the way they were" but you can do this. In the end she will respect YOU when YOU respect you.


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## insafemode (Oct 27, 2010)

I REALLY WANT TO THANK EVERYONE FOR HELPING SO MUCH.

IT'S NOT JUST THE ADVICE... IT'S THE INCREDIBLE SUPPORT THAT HAS MADE ME FEEL "PART OF A COMMUNITY" AND THIS HAS GREATLY ALLEVIATED THE LONELINESS AND PAIN THAT I'VE BEEN SUFFERING. IT TAKES REALLY FANTASTIC PEOPLE TO PUT THIS TIME AND EFFORT INTO UNSELFISHLY HELPING EVERYONE THAT VISITS THIS SITE. I COMMEND YOU FOR BEING SO WONDERFUL.

My wife has become too "emotionally" close to this other woman and she's not having anything to do with me, nothing to do with our pets, she hasn't called her Mother in 2 days (she always calls every day) and I can see that she want's a different life. I don't think this is like a drug addiction or a "fog", I think it's a very calculated choice on her part and she wants the adventure of leaving the Country and being with this woman and traveling.

If I confront her, she will leave and it'll be done. If I don't confront her, she'll stay until it's time for her to leave, then it'll be done.

The only advantage I can see is to wait until they have a falling out (as long distance relationships are tough) and then intervene at that stage to catch this with the right, proper and correct timing. 

I can only hope their relationship "dips" at some stage, allowing me to take action that might possibly have an effect. That is, if I still want her by that time... but it's difficult to hold off while being treated like crap because every day that goes by, it takes another chunk out of my patience level with her walking around like a prima-donna and ignoring me. That's pretty cruel after 18 years of loving her and taking care of her and building our little empire together. We bought every Christmas decoration individually for our tree and it took 16 years to put it all together to perfection... It's a tree like you've never seen in your life.... how can anyone turn their back on all that love ??? It's almost psychotic...

I CAN SAY THAT CHEATING IS THE WORST CRIME OF THEM ALL, BUT THAT'S NOT TRUE... IT'S THE ABANDONMENT OF ALL THE LOVED ONES THAT'S THE WORST CRIME IMAGINABLE...

AND THAT IS A PAIN THAT NOBODY SHOULD EVER HAVE TO ENDURE... 

I'll update soon... and again... up all night long....


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Okay. 

Well it would appear you have made the decision to allow your wife to have her affair and that you'll accept that in your life rather than "rocking the boat." 

When you are ready to live a life that does not include active adultery by your spouse, I look forward to hearing from you again. I will point out to you though that how she's treating you is NOT love or respect, it's not a marriage (possibly closer to a master/slave relationship), and you're response allowing it is not loving or respecting her. 

I would encourage you to continue to read on Dr. Irene's Verbal Abuse website.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I am so sorry you have chickened out. You deserve a REAL wife who LOVES her husband, not someone who USES her husband.

Hopefully, some day, you will respect yourself and tell her to get OUT of your home until she wants to respect you as well.


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## insafemode (Oct 27, 2010)

I haven't chickened out yet...

Tactfully... I'm very intelligent and very aggressive... this part you must understand about my persona. Once I begin this intervention and all the stress and frustration is out in the open, it's going to cause a cascading effect that will never be able to be reversed.

I'm telling you now, it will not save the marriage, it will end it permanently because she's more stubborn than you'd believe... and it's all based on pride.

I'm also coming to the end of my rope on this... I can't take much more of feeling like a doormat... so I may have chickened out last Friday... but I'm considering it for this evening.

I'll keep you updated... if you feel the earth shake, you'll know I did it...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

So...because your wife is PROUD, you can either ACCEPT HER WAY and give up what YOU need, or move on and find a woman whose goal is making her husband happy?


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## insafemode (Oct 27, 2010)

I did the intervention tonight... I showed her about 50 pages of e-mails and she tore them up... But admitted to everything...

Now what ???? This is my definition of stress...


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## insafemode (Oct 27, 2010)

I haven't eaten or slept in 2 days and it's late at night and I'm starving... I don't know what to do... I'm starving... should I eat something myself or offer her something to eat because she hasn't eaten either? 

I told her 2 things... 
1. That there are solutions and she asked what and I didn't answer... I just wanted her to know that there are solutions.
2. That I have the strongest soul of them all... and I left it at that.

Now she's staring into space and weeping...

What a horrible situation...


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

Do not chase her. Do not cry, beg or plead. You have to have self respect. If you don't she will start to hold you in contempt. Set boundaries.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

I strongly suggest you do not assume your wife will stop, her OW is not out of the picture. 

Prepare for the next steps, you must be prepared to expose this to a lot of people that she cares for. Exposure is the single most effective tool you have today so start preparing. Sad experience tells me you will need to expose to break this affair, this must occur very quickly to family and friends, even if it is a repeat to some who may already know. Being a nice guy will not save your marriage, standing up for yourself and your wife may. 

If she has a facebook account access it and extract the full list of friends with email addresses. Prepare a mail shot to send to all, words can be given to you if you need a template. If she works obtain the mail addresses of her closest co-workers. Do not fear all you will be saying to them is the truth. 


Whatever happens, never lose control, either in your composure or voice and do not play your hand to her. Do not be scared and show no remorse to the OW, what happens to her is not your problem. If you know the OW’s work, find her work email address; find out who her co-workers are. 

Start preparing today. Please do stop using excuses not to take the action required to break this affair. It is tough I know and it is going to get a lot worse, so hang in there. Every delay plays into their hands.


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## insafemode (Oct 27, 2010)

The information I showed her had a collage of photos, along with the 7th commandment... all put into a binder... She tore it all up into little pieces and said that I didn't need to embarrass like that.

I think by sending e-mails to everyone is the wrong approach in this case and I'll explain why. 

1. By exposing this to people that currently don't know the situation will cause them to wonder why I'm doing this, then they'll think I'm crazy when it's none of their business to begin with.

2. She will get so angry, she will quit her job and move out of the house... and that's for sure!

3. She will absolutely hate me forever.

4. She will get all the support in the world from this other woman because there won't be anyone else to console her.

5. The relationship will be over... period.

She must "see the light" on her own accord and decide whether or not to stay in our relationship. This has to be her decision without being pushed, otherwise, everytime we have a falling out, I'll be blamed for keeping her in the relationship and she'll throw this at me in the future. 

Showing her the information was bad enough, but exposing is a certain destruction of the relationship, so if I want her to leave, exposure is the way to go.

What I'm wondering now is... should I e-mail the other woman and tell her to buzz off, or just leave it alone.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Insafemode: 


By exposing this to people that currently don't know the situation will cause them to wonder why I'm doing this, then they'll think I'm crazy when it's none of their business to begin with.
Why? This is a tried and proven method to kill an affair. There is no learning here, all you are being asked to do is follow the tested process to make the affair uncomfortable and let people see her and OW for who they are. It is a dirty little affair people will see it that way. 

She will get so angry, she will quit her job and move out of the house... and that's for sure!
She will do this anyway, as soon as the OW and her have their plan ready she is gone.

She will absolutely hate me forever. 
She does not love you now , she dislikes you now, she may even hate you now, the fog is in control now. How is this going to change with you standing by and doing nothing to break the affair. Your love for her is not going to stop her. 

She will get all the support in the world from this other woman because there won't be anyone else to console her.
Who cares what the OW does, you are going to undercut her support elsewhere. Even the OW will feel the heat. She is going to be exposed as a cheat who is poaching your wife. 


The relationship will be over... period.
It is finished now, where do you think it is working other than you hoping that it is not already over.


*I asked you to prepare for exposure*, please do so, time will be of the essence and you will lose that window. 

Sample of exposure letter used elsewhere. 


Dear ........., I would like to ask you to support......... and myself in restoring our marriage which currently is undergoing an extremely difficult time due to ........ and ........... being involved in an adulterous affair which is affecting our marriage and both of our physical and mental health. I know you care about .......... and want only the best for her which clearly being used in an adulterous affair is not. I would like to ask your help in recommending marital counselling to her to guide us through this difficult spot in our marriage. 

Please do contact me if you have any questions or need more information. 

Thank you

Insafemode


If you use US English change the spelling.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Eli-Zor, would you like to articulate what happened after you exposed your DS’s affair in the way you are advising other people to?

Bob


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Not my WS very close family member's WS. I did the research and support. 

Hell broke lose, family, friends were all over WS. She was angry, then furious, then threatening, walked out the house, came back because divorced OM had his own problems as exposure went to his family, friends and co-workers. Then WS felt alone, with BS to support her and kept on saying why did you tell everyone. 


All done at the same time as moving all moneys to a secure account, cancelling all credit lines and giving WS letter stating the terms of returning to the marriage. Similar to the NC items seen on this site.

In parallel Plan A in full effect followed by Plan B for some months thereafter. Back in house 6 months later apologizing and agreeing to rebuild marriage. Counselling for a year was mandated in the terms as well as polygraph. No trickle truth full disclosure was required. 

Some months of pain, however with each passing day and no OM around it got better. 

In recovery is how I would describe it 11 months later. A hard slog but the marriage was worth the fight, both WS and BS agree.

Horse for courses, as I said before he needs to prepare, he may never need to use it but be must get to the contact list and prepare before the window of opportunity passes.

AFEH I am offering advice not debating it, I happened to review options on this site at the time and was on Marriage Builders forum as well. The route taken was proposed by the Marriage Builders forum which is largely aligned to most advice given here.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

ism, you don't have to expose if she agrees to stop seeing OW. Did you state that as your boundary? Did she agree?


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

I wouldn't advise using exposure as a threat, either. It is a step you take, provided previous steps fail. Using the threat of it is both a means of control (which is usually detrimental) - and it gives your spouse a chance to do some damage control: tell everyone you are crazy, etc., so that when you do approach them - they will already be set to hear really bizarre stuff from the lunatic trying to destroy their spouses life!


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## insafemode (Oct 27, 2010)

I didn't know what the hell to do...

After watching her rip up the evidence for 20 minutes, I was in shock mode...

I didn't set any particular boundaries, nor did I tell her what I wanted her to do... She's a bright girl and she knows... but last night she said she would move out by the end of the year... which actually wasn't too surprising... She's always tried to punish me for her idiocy.

She came home from work just a short time ago (which is where she can communicate with the OW comfortably) and I asked her what happened and she just said nothing happened... so I left her in the room to sulk... so now she's sulking away... and I have no idea what to do next.

I really want to e-mail the OW and tell her to buzz off... I'm delicate with my wife but when it comes to other people, I'm pretty viscous. I know you'll tell me to keep it within boundaries and you're right but I've never done anything "by the book".

I want to tell her what I expect but just not sure how to gear up the conversation again... Should I let her stew on it? Should I tell her to take a sabbatical from work for a few days? (a really good idea). Maybe I should pretend I'm going out on dates with other women (just joking)... 

This isn't easy... but no matter what happens, I won't be e-mailing people and exposing this because it could embarrass her so badly that she's liable to jump in front of the train... and I'm serious! She suffers from clinical depression and has tried a few stupid things (years ago) but she's now going into another depression state so she's already her own worst enemy.

Just not sure what to do next... but it has to be mild... at least for now, until I know where all this is going. I can't tell whether she wants to repair the relationship or leave me.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

First, stop letting her use her 'delicate mental state' as a weapon against you. SHE owns her choices.

Second, what you do is you decide what your boundaries are. What YOU can live with. Like "I cannot accept my wife spending all her emotional efforts on another person."

You wait until she makes a move and then you state what you need from her. It's that simple.


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## insafemode (Oct 27, 2010)

She's still in contact with the other woman and they're trying to figure out how I obtained all that information... 

I asked her yesterday what happened, she said "nothing happened" but she's still in contact with the other woman and they're not slowing anything down... that's for sure...

I'm not sure whether to "ask" her to stop the relationship or "tell" her she has to stop the relationship.

If I push these questions while everything is going well with the 2 of them, I'll get a pretty bad response... then again, their relationship may never be strained enough to get the response that I'm looking for.... and now I'm not even sure whether all of this is worth it!


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

Make it a respectful request, and leave her the option to choose. HOWEVER: this can only be done if you already have a clear boundary of what YOU are willing to put up with. Before you address this: establish this boundary: what will YOU do with YOUR life, dependent upon her choice.

By making a request, you respect her as a person able to think for themself. By sticking to your own boundary, you keep yourself safe, and you clarify your relationship.


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## insafemode (Oct 27, 2010)

I think I didn't do it right...

She wasn't talking at all when she came home and said "You have nothing to say?... we should talk about all this a little bit". She replied that there's nothing to talk about and that I wanted her to feel rotten by giving her the information and I accomplished my goal perfectly by making her feel like crawling under a rock and dying... She said "If I were brave enough, I would go right now and jump in front of the train". I knew she would say something along those lines.

I told her that she needs to stop all communication with this other woman... She said "You must think I'm 12 years old and you can tell me what to do". 

I told her that she would ask nothing less from me if the situation were reversed... that shut her up... but she didn't say that she would stop communicating with the other woman.

I asked her if she was interested in solutions to repair our relationship and she said that there's no way to fix our relationship because of all the damage that has been done.

That was the end of the conversation... A lot more was said in the beginning... Regarding the print-out of all the e-mails, that she only saw it for the past few days and I've lived with it for 4 months on a daily basis... blah blah...

So, now, she's at the other end of the house... doing whatever... and I'm writing on the internet... still not sure what to do...


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

Any time you order an adult to do something, they will react the way your wife did - good communication is from adult to adult, not parent to child, ore child to child (unless that's what is really going on). Nor are you a government agent ordering a subject to comply. 

She is and adult, you are an adult, and in order to communicate, you need to keep that in mind. She is free to make her mind up about things, as are you. But neither of you are free to order the other person to comply with anything. The BEST you can do is give an option, and wait for the other adult to make up their mind regarding the choice. And then you operate given that choice.

That is why the subject of boundaries has been broached in several ways to you. YOU decide what you will and won't live with, and you live your life according to those boundaries - _even if she decides otherwise_. If you don't want a life with a woman who cheats, and if she decides to cheat, then you begin the process of starting your life WITHOUT a woman who cheats. 

You are stuck in combat mode - both of you. You want to 'win' and she wants to 'win' - and the 'wins' both of you have in mind are actually losses to both of you.

Draw back from the fight, and spend a couple of days PONDERING the meaning of boundaries! _You_ are worth NO relationship unless you understand that you must have some sort of limit to what you will put up with, some understanding of what is right and what is wrong. No one in their right mind would live with a person who was that directionless for very long. The relationship is DESTINED to fail!


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## insafemode (Oct 27, 2010)

Well... now it's difficult to all of a sudden gear up the conversation again and then tell her my boundaries... I think I'll have to wait until tomorrow and try again.

Starting these conversations is the tricky part... she just doesn't want to go there...

I don't want to just come out and say, "OK, here are my rules" or "I have boundaries that you need to know about"... it's pretty tricky when someone doesn't want to hear anything because any words to her are an "attack" it seems.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

Let her initiate it. There's no need for you to chase her around the house showing her how adult you have suddenly become. Not a very adult behavior!!!


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## insafemode (Oct 27, 2010)

I was thinking about following her around the house, while walking like Groucho Marx...

She's getting a lot of support from this other woman... not sure how to deal with that... her communication with her is really stressing me.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

insafemode~

She is carrying on an affair right in front of you. I don't even KNOW you and I would not treat you that way. You are more valuable than to allow someone who supposedly loves you to cheat right in front of your face. 

So within 15 minutes, I want you to go to your wife and tell her this: "I have had enough. You are my wife and you made a vow to forsake all others and love only me until death parted us. I will not be treated as a cuckold. Either end this affair right now in front of me and we can discuss how to fix our marriage together, or pack your things and go tonight. When you are willing to give me 100% of your affection and loyalty, I will consider reconciling with you, but I will not accept crumbs. It's 100% or go. Are you going to end all contact right now or shall I pack your things and call your mother to expect you tonight?"

Seriously. You KNOW she is having an affair!! She knows that you know and she's continuing anyway. This is not a "marriage" and she is not treating you with any respect. I get it--you weren't perfect. But allowing her to continue like this is tantamount to saying, "It okay with me if you screw someone else in front of me, as long as you give me just a crumb or two of hope that one day you might stop and love me again."

So do it now. Practice--memorize it--say it--mean it!. You have 15 minutes.


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## insafemode (Oct 27, 2010)

She went to bed 48 minutes before you wrote that...

I don't like treating people this way... 

The other woman is 7000 miles away... so it's not like she's in the same city... this is all phone call and internet... well, for now it is.

Maybe I'll do that on Friday... then she has the weekend and no work which will give her time to think about it... Her mother doesn't have internet and she won't want to use her phone because it'll show on the phone bill... so it's a pretty good idea.

Sounds like a solid plan... YIKES !


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

You know, inasafemode, I didn't mean to sound "bossy" there but rather I was hoping to light a fire under you a little. Seriously I would not treat my worst enemy the way she's treating you, and allowing her to continue her affair, even if they are 7000 miles apart, is not loving her. That's enabling!

So tomorrow is Friday--you have 24 hours. You can do this! I'm not encouraging you to get so angry you scream at her or lose your calm. Just be consistent: "I love you but I won't let you carry on an affair in this house. So this weekend, you are completely free to choose. End the affair or I'm packing your items and putting them in the front yard. I will accept 100% of your affection and loyalty, and when you're willing to give me that, we can talk about you staying at home."


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

insafemode said:


> Well... now it's difficult to all of a sudden gear up the conversation again and then tell her my boundaries... I think I'll have to wait until tomorrow and try again.
> 
> Starting these conversations is the tricky part... she just doesn't want to go there...
> 
> *I don't want to just come out and say, "OK, here are my rules*" or "I have boundaries that you need to know about"... it's pretty tricky when someone doesn't want to hear anything because any words to her are an "attack" it seems.


 Why not?

Because you are afaid she will leave.

Until you can act out of confidence that you will survive no matter what she does, she will OWN YOU.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

insafemode said:


> The other woman is 7000 miles away... so it's not like she's in the same city... this is all phone call and internet... well, for now it is.


 Well, the first thing I'd do is END the cable!


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## insafemode (Oct 27, 2010)

I don't need to cut off the internet...

I can log into her accounts, change the passwords, redirect the e-mails she's receiving... the whole thing...

The reason I haven't done this is 2 fold... First, I think it's against the law (not that I'm worried about that), secondly, I won't know what they're thinking, plotting and planning and "losing" that information isn't good... as soon as you "don't" know what people are going to do, you lose that "edge"... then it'll force her to get a new e-mail account, or she'll just buy a cell phone with internet and then I'm finished in the information department.

You're absolutely right in saying that I have to get rid of her in order to save the relationship, but I know that once that happens, she won't be returning... so I just have to be ready for that... which is the toughest part.


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

You seem to have a low level of respect for yourself. You act based out of fear of her leaving. When you should be tossing her clothes out the door. You have set no boundaries with her. Your excuse is that she is very stubborn, or that she might hurt herself.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

insafemode said:


> Well... now it's difficult to all of a sudden gear up the conversation again and then tell her my boundaries... I think I'll have to wait until tomorrow and try again.
> 
> Starting these conversations is the tricky part... she just doesn't want to go there...
> 
> I don't want to just come out and say, "OK, here are my rules" or "I have boundaries that you need to know about"... it's pretty tricky when someone doesn't want to hear anything because any words to her are an "attack" it seems.


You don't tell your wife your boundaries. You just "have" them.

Bob


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## hmm (Aug 23, 2010)

I agree with your statement! boundaries to me are common sense NO your not allowed to sleep with someone else!! NO your not allowed to tell someone else you love them !! NO you are not allowed to share OUR life with someone else!!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

insafemode said:


> I don't need to cut off the internet...
> 
> I can log into her accounts, change the passwords, redirect the e-mails she's receiving... the whole thing...
> 
> ...


 Cutting the Internet is done so that you drive home that you will ENABLE her to cheat on you.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> I can log into her accounts, change the passwords, redirect the e-mails she's receiving... the whole thing...


It would be wrong to change her passwords, and such behavior (hacking) might well end up in court, especially in a messy divorce fight. 

If you are paying for the internet, then allowing her to use it is enabling her affair - the same as if you were leaving drugs on the table for an addict to 'not abuse'. 

If you cut off your support of the affair - she is still free to get her own provider - but that is on HER DIME, and you are not giving it to her so she can keep stabbing you in the back. 



> as soon as you "don't" know what people are going to do, you lose that "edge"... then it'll force her to get a new e-mail account, or she'll just buy a cell phone with internet and then I'm finished in the information department.


BS. You already HAVE the information you need. You already know this is an affair. Print out a bit more for the record, and then end it. You need NOTHING else. The reason you want to keep up with whats going on is that you seem to be addicted to the pain. 

You need to move on from 'gathering intel' to actually working. You already have what you need: knowledge that an affair is ongoing! What, you think that it might end unless you keep checking on her? 



> You're absolutely right in saying that I have to get rid of her in order to save the relationship, but I know that once that happens, she won't be returning... so I just have to be ready for that... which is the toughest part


Let's consider the logic of that argument! You say that:

You need to get rid of the Other Woman in order to save the relationship.

If you get rid of the Other Woman, you cannot save the relationship.​
You offer no actual conclusion, although it is fairly clearly inferred - you are saying that you lose no matter what. Some might think otherwise - it may well be that you WIN in this situation, since this is a person to whom being married is pointless.

But why make statements such as...."You're absolutely right in saying that I have to get rid of her in order to save the relationship..." when you don't believe it at all! There is NO saving the relationship in your argument, why pretend you agree with the offered suggestion?

Moreover - why even bother posting here if you already are convinced that NO MATTER what happens, your relationship is over? If you don't want help, just say so! We can spend our time helping people who want to recover their marriages!

BTW - by what stroke of omniscience do you have this unfathomable knowledge of the future? I could really use you - I have some investing to do! 

How do you know that if you spent the time doing what we suggest you do, instead of following your wife around voyeuristically watching her affair, that she might not one day suddenly start seeing the man she thought she was marrying? Why not make the marriage a place that will be worth living in? 

Why not become someone worth being with? Even if it isn't her?

Is that not far more important? You cannot know her so well that you can tell what she will do in the future - if that was so, would you have really married her in the first place (knowing that she was going to cheat on you?)


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## insafemode (Oct 27, 2010)

I don't know what to say...

Ok... I kick her out... great... then she's gone... Haven't you said many times that it's better to keep the spouse "in the house" than to deal with them while their outside of the home?

All of this really isn't the issue... the reason I said that if I leave it alone, I'll lose her and if I kick her out, I'll still lose her is because she's a "lesbian"... This is her EX from years ago, they have a history, they have their culture, and she's been struggling with the fact that she's actually gay, but in a straight relationship.

This isn't so much an issue of me being proud, or me being "worth being with"... she knows there's nothing wrong with me... It seems this is a "gender" choice for her...

I was always under the impression that gender didn't matter and "love is love", but it appears this isn't the case. She said she's been struggling with this for a long time.

She won't end the communication with the other woman... no matter what I do... unless their relationship breaks down... If I kick her out, it'll just prompt her to make plans with this other woman faster than anticipated... this is why I'm saying it's an unsolvable problem.

Why am I here? To find that third solution... I think...


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

A healthy, loving marriage is when two adults make the promise to forsake all others, and every day they make the choice to treat their spouse in a loving way. When we marry, we tend to think we'll be marrying for life, and usually hope one day to celebrate our 50th wedding anniversary. Thus, on the occasion life will throw a curve ball at one spouse (mid-life, a death in the family) that they handle really badly--and in that instance we encourage the other spouse to hang in there, admit where they may have contributed, but don't cover up for the bad choices so that their spouse doesn't have to experience the consequences of their choices. It is essential for a healthy marriage for both parties to be personally responsible. 

When you have enough self-respect to believe you're worthy of being treated well and with love (not smooshy feelings, not sex, but LOVE), I look forward to talking to you again. I wish you luck until then insafemode.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> Ok... I kick her out... great... then she's gone... Haven't you said many times that it's better to keep the spouse "in the house" than to deal with them while their outside of the home?


What is being said is that unless you set specific boundaries, you will be used, abused and cast aside. One _suggested_ boundary is that you will not live with a person who is actively pursuing an affair. Because of that, if your spouse chooses to pursue the affair, the necessary conclusion is that the you will not live with this person. That means they cannot live under your roof, share bills, etc., as long as that affair is pursued. 

It really isn't as hard to grasp as you are pretending to make it.

When we say it is easier to fight an affair while your spouse is under the same roof, this in no way infers that the affair cannot be addressed in any other situation. It in no way infers that you are obligated to 'keep' her under your roof. 

Again, this isn't this hard to grasp!



> All of this really isn't the issue... the reason I said that if I leave it alone, I'll lose her and if I kick her out, I'll still lose her is because she's a "lesbian"... This is her EX from years ago, they have a history, they have their culture, and she's been struggling with the fact that she's actually gay, but in a straight relationship.


You have not only argued that 'if you leave it alone' you will lose her. You've also argued that if you get involved, you will lose her. In other words, your argument is that no matter what you do, your relationship is over. And you've offered all the reasons why you've convinced yourself of this.

In other words, your relationship is over, finished, gone, done, dead, dismissed, dissolved, removed, past and history. There is nothing you or anyone else can do.

So why are you here?

You have been given very clear, workable steps, and solutions to apply to your situation; to each and every one you've declared "not workable" because the relationship is over, finished, gone, done, dead, dismissed.... see the above list.

You want 'some other way' - that 'third solution'. The solutions are: 1) end the affair and get to work on the marriage. 2) End the marriage.

Here's the third solution: shut up and live with where you are; learn to be quiet and give up. 

Here's what's going to happen. Your wife is going to leave you. Your marriage will end. You've already assigned that conclusion to yourself. There's nothing we can do here to help someone who is more willing to argue why things won't work, rather than to do what is suggested. 

Sure, those things might not work - but at least you'll have tried! Instead, you are looking for something else: something that apparently does not involve pain, hard work, or confrontation for you. Won't find that - here or anywhere else. 



> She won't end the communication with the other woman... no matter what I do... unless their relationship breaks down... If I kick her out, it'll just prompt her to make plans with this other woman faster than anticipated... this is why I'm saying it's an unsolvable problem.


So what you want to do is slow down her inevitable plans for a while. To what purpose? To put off the final admission that the relationship died long ago and you won't try to repair it? This IS a solvable problem. End the marriage. That's a solution, is it not? Maybe not the one you want - but I offer it in direct contradiction to your statement:



> this is why I'm saying it's an unsolvable problem.


Look, if you think that their relationship will break down better if she stays in the home with you, then you'd better come up with some ways to deal with the fact that she is going to keep it up, in spite of you. What reason would you give her to choose her promise to you over her desire to move on to 'greener' grass?


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## insafemode (Oct 27, 2010)

UPDATE:

IT'S BEEN ABOUT 8 WEEKS SINCE MY LAST POST

My wife underwent a hysterectomy and I took care of her every minute since and did an astounding job at helping her recover.... I think this was to prove to her that this world is a safe and secure one and that she has a wonderful home that needs to be kept intact... but... whenever I would go out, she's back on the phone and the internet with this other woman... and the emotional affair continues.

I don't want a huge confrontation and I've tried to make her realize that we have a wonderful life... but she's not getting it...

Should I come down on her and give her an ultimatum or contact this other woman and try to circumvent it from that direction? 

Your suggestions would certainly be enlightening... it just seems to be a dead end no matter what way I look at it.


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## Powerbane (Nov 8, 2010)

Time to talk to her - not us.

You know the path but are looking for us to validate for you. Whatever path you chose will be your path. IF you don't know where you are going any road will take you there. 

I think you know. Now do it!!!

You can be the person you want to be-


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Do you want to avoid confrontation so bad that you'll just walk away from your marriage?

That's where you're headed. Tell her you want her to end this EA, you won't stay married. If she refuses, expose it to her family/friends and ask themj to talk to her. Call the OW's family and tell them what's going on.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Whats the deal with the OW, who does she work for is there an OM in her life? Investigate this person and find out what she's all about.

Then gather any paperwork that can prove an affair. You will need some hard black and white proof. Pictures are good.

Once you have quitely gathered all this together, you then asses the deal with regard to confronting the OW. See, if she has something to loose by haveing this affair exposed, you can confront her with out ever letting your wife know the the discusion took place.

If you have some dirt and the OW is afraid of what you have, you can simply confront the OW and let her know that as long as she stops all contact, breaks it off and never tells your wife of this conversaion, the evidence you have will go away. In addition if you even suspect that they are in contact or if some other party even mentions this conversation to your wife the evidence will be exposed.

Other then really knowing your enemy, you will not not the best way to fight her.

As far as your wife is concerned, I'm sure you have stated your case, and it sound like she does not care. With that kind of respect who needs enemies. 
Set your boundries and let her know there will be consequences and hold your self to those boundries. You can't controll her but you ca controll what you will tolorate, and back them up with action.

I still think you will have better luck getting to the bottom of what the OW is all about and see if you can find the leverage that way.


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## insafemode (Oct 27, 2010)

The OW is in a different Country...

This has been an emotional affair but I now have a strange feeling that she's here and staying in a hotel near my wife's workplace... can't be sure from the information I've been gathering.

I think what you're saying about the OW is a form of blackmail... is it even legal?

It's now 8 weeks since her operation and she's back at work and the same routine has continued... sneaky, deceptive and lying continually...

Just not sure what to do...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Well, what advice have you already been given, that you haven't followed?


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