# Can Affairs Improve (Even Save) Marriages?



## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

“But do such flings necessarily signal the end of a marriage? Increasingly, some experts believe that an affair – when handled correctly – can actually revive dying relationships, giving the unfaithful partner an outlet for frustrations while allowing families to stay together.

“In 2008, US marriage therapist Mira Kershenbaum outraged many with her book When Good People Have Affairs, which claimed the “right kind” of fling could ‘jolt people from their inertia.”

“But the idea has gained ground and the following year, French psychologist Maryse Vaillant published Men, Love, Fidelity, a book that claimed couples would be happier if they acknowledged many men loved their wives but still still needed “breathing space”, and that the “pact of fidelity was cultural not natural.” 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.te...nships/could-adultery-save-your-marriage/amp/

“She thought about cheating on her husband of 20 years. She considered bars, parties, a review of the lapses in her mid-20s.

“Instead, she sat her husband down and told him something that more and more progressive couples are beginning to realize. They loved each other and wanted to stay together — but in the age of Tinder and ****** ******* and *******, they also both wanted to have other options. Options they knew were just a click away.

“Interesting, introspective, happily married D.C. professional,” reads Jessie’s profile on the new non-monogamous dating site Open Minded. “I’m into building deep and loving relationships that add to the joy and aliveness of being human.”

* * *

“In 2010, Jessie approached her husband with an idea she called “ethical non-monogamy.” They would stay together as each other’s primary, lifelong partners, but they wouldn’t rule out other relationships — as long as they happened openly. Jessie has shown her husband her profile on several dating sites, including Open Minded. When she returns from her weekly date with one of her four extramarital partners, she tells him as much, or as little, as he likes.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/life...5f07ec-03e8-11e5-8bda-c7b4e9a8f7ac_story.html


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## Betrayedone (Jan 1, 2014)

That is a dumb way to achieve positive results..........


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

You know the old saying; the mind can rationalize anything.

Any information that supports what a person wants to think or do, right or wrong, can become popular group think.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

CraigBesuden said:


> “In 2010, Jessie approached her husband with an idea she called “ethical non-monogamy.” They would stay together as each other’s primary, lifelong partners, but they wouldn’t rule out other relationships — as long as they happened openly.


If the couple agrees to see other people, it is *not* an affair. I think you should change the title to be "open marriages" rather than "affairs". They are totally different and should not be conflated. Whether or not an open marriage can improve things has no bearing on whether or not an affair will do the same.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

No, deception, betrayall, selfishness, and sexually immoral behavior does not make marriages better.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Sure. You go for it and I'll just wait to see what happens.>


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

The topic seems to be a good way of selling magazines and books.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Is there anything new to say about these sorts of gurus?


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

You should the WaPo article and the comments. This is nothing more than a press release trying to promote a struggling business.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

If you need an affair to improve you marriage you have a pretty **** marriage. 

Better question is an marriage with an affair in it ever going to be as good as one without one?


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## BruceBanner (May 6, 2018)

It can't save any union with me; the suspect would immediately be seen as an enemy. I'm not the forgiving type.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

It's not for me, but I'm not altogether opposed to open marriages just because the marriages are no longer monogamous. It's certainly better than cheating when you have your spouse's agreement. So, what's the harm? 

To me, it's like the pro-choice/pro-life issue. Pro-choicers want everyone to be able to choose what they will or won't do. Pro-lifers want to prevent people from having the choice, when all they have to do is decide for themselves what they will and won't do. If their belief is such that they will never get an abortion, why do they insist that absolutely has to extend to everyone else? I would never have an open marriage, but I don't have to account for or answer to the deeds or the sins of others. It's their business, not mine and it doesn't affect me in the least. 

There's nothing new about open marriages just because one article says their protagonist called it "open minded." In practice, it's all the same. So what is the problem?

If you don't like it, then you don't have to do it. But why criticize others in their agreements?

I don't know that there's any statistical data on whether open marriages saved any marriages. A guy posted a couple days ago about his failed polyamory agreement and failed marriage. But not many people post about it. I don't even know if any data could be quantifiable since people tend to point fingers and change history. He said he had long fallen out of love with his wife. Just an excuse really to justify his actions, which reduces his attempt at polyamory to pretense and insincere. I think that's something most people would do.

But there are lots of stories and data about marriages that survived infidelity, most of which say their marriage became stronger. Of course, there are many, many more stories of how it destroyed the marriage.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

StarFires said:


> It's not for me, but I'm not altogether opposed to open marriages just because the marriages are no longer monogamous. It's certainly better than cheating when you have your spouse's agreement. So, what's the harm?
> 
> To me, it's like the pro-choice/pro-life issue. Pro-choicers want everyone to be able to choose what they will or won't do. Pro-lifers want to prevent people from having the choice, when all they have to do is decide for themselves what they will and won't do. If their belief is such that they will never get an abortion, why do they insist that absolutely has to extend to everyone else? I would never have an open marriage, but I don't have to account for or answer to the deeds or the sins of others. It's their business, not mine and it doesn't affect me in the least.
> 
> ...


False equivalencies aside, I agree... I'd never be in an open marriage myself, but I don't feel a need to tell others not to.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

One, infidelity and ethical non-monogamy are two entirely different things. Opposite things, in fact. The whole point of an open marriage is to be... open with each other. In more ways than just sexually. Open as in honest. Which is the reverse of infidelity.

Secondly, affairs do not strengthen marriages. They usually destroy marriages, and those that they don't destroy usually end up perpetually damaged. That's not me talking (although I've lived that dream) - it's therapists I actually know quite well and trust talking from their experience.

If a marriage ends up stronger after, it's because people are more open and honest with each other. Which doesn't need an affair to happen, it just needs courage.

Which again, is the opposite of infidelity.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

If there is any truth to this way of thinking, you might as well not present it here, even if I can absolutely guarantee that at least some couples somewhere have benefited in exactly this way. 

Some topics are simply too sensitive for most people to rationalize over. It's like the abortion chapter in Freakonomics. I'm sure some marriages can be helped this way, but it's 1) a low probability solution and 2) you probably cannot easily determine which ones are good candidates. So as a general strategy, it's probably not very sound.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

everybody has a different idea as to what works and what possibly cannot.

People tell me that my husband should have dumped me for snooping in his e-mails and other messanging services. Well, 8 years on we're still together and we're happy together. 

I can't imagine that we would have remained together without the totally open discussions that we had once I had ontrovertible truth in front of me about the true nature of his "friendship" ..... no matter what label he wanted to put on it.


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

StarFires said:


> It's not for me, but I'm not altogether opposed to open marriages just because the marriages are no longer monogamous. It's certainly better than cheating when you have your spouse's agreement. So, what's the harm?
> 
> To me, it's like the pro-choice/pro-life issue. Pro-choicers want everyone to be able to choose what they will or won't do. Pro-lifers want to prevent people from having the choice, when all they have to do is decide for themselves what they will and won't do. If their belief is such that they will never get an abortion, why do they insist that absolutely has to extend to everyone else? I would never have an open marriage, but I don't have to account for or answer to the deeds or the sins of others. It's their business, not mine and it doesn't affect me in the least.
> 
> ...


Like your example murder of life and murder of marriage.
Is nothing like a affair.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Cletus said:


> If there is any truth to this way of thinking, you might as well not present it here, even if I can absolutely guarantee that at least some couples somewhere have benefited in exactly this way.
> 
> Some topics are simply too sensitive for most people to rationalize over. It's like the abortion chapter in Freakonomics.


I will take your word for it.

I can't imagine a marriage made better by some a hole porking your wife.

I'm willing to admit that I'm in a far different category than some however and maybe there are lows in marital life that will never touch me and I will never comprehend.

I'm willing to honestly listen.


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

Sorry about the threadjack


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Cletus said:


> If there is any truth to this way of thinking, you might as well not present it here, even if I can absolutely guarantee that at least some couples somewhere have benefited in exactly this way.
> 
> Some topics are simply too sensitive for most people to rationalize over. It's like the abortion chapter in Freakonomics. I'm sure some marriages can be helped this way, but it's 1) a low probability solution and 2) you probably cannot easily determine which ones are good candidates. So as a general strategy, it's probably not very sound.




People have started relationships with their kidnappers, aka the Nightengale effect. Also with those abusing them. With murderers in prison on death row. With addicts. With sex workers forced into the industry.

All kinds of negative, hostile, and abusive scenarios have resulted in “positive” relationships.

How is cheating any different? Would you recommend any of the other scenarios to improve relationships?

At the end of the day, cheating is a form of abuse, after all.


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## AandM (Jan 30, 2019)

CraigBesuden said:


> “But do such flings necessarily signal the end of a marriage? Increasingly, some experts believe that an affair – when handled correctly – can actually revive dying relationships, giving the unfaithful partner an outlet for frustrations while allowing families to stay together.
> 
> “In 2008, US marriage therapist Mira Kershenbaum outraged many with her book When Good People Have Affairs, which claimed the “right kind” of fling could ‘jolt people from their inertia.”
> 
> ...


Uggh. Lordy Mercy...

"There is no Zuul, there is only clickbait."

Did anyone actually read the Telecrap.uk article in question? The demons of Fleet Street cranked out a very typical, generic piece of crap, complete with a cheesecake photo of Franken-Morticia, the alleged initial subject of the, ahem, article, and then a pile of salacious word-vomit punctuated by cheating-themed stock photos.

Why are we giving a ****?

Fake journalism.


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## AandM (Jan 30, 2019)

AandM said:


> Uggh. Lordy Mercy...
> 
> "There is no Zuul, there is only clickbait."
> 
> ...


Also, by making me click on the linked crapticle, you made me feed them a fraction of a pence.

Next time, don't.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Seems like just another slick and calculating way to justify and to promote adultery!*


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> I will take your word for it.
> 
> I can't imagine a marriage made better by some a hole porking your wife.
> 
> ...


If my wife had an affair it would certainly help my marriage. 
To my next wife.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> I will take your word for it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Let's be clear. I'm not advocating this as a good idea. I'm just recognizing that the world is a stranger place than you or I can imagine, and that this is probably someone's truth.

I can say that I saw in my own wife a realization about how bad things must have been that no amount of talking or fighting ever managed to do. I wouldn't go so far as to say that it made my marriage better, but it would also be wrong to say that absolutely no good came from it. 

You know that 2x4 to the head that everyone likes to talk about here? There is more than one way to apply it. 

Just don't try this at home, kids.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Let's be clear. I'm not advocating this as a good idea. I'm just recognizing that the world is a stranger place than you or I can imagine, and that this is probably someone's truth.
> 
> I can say that I saw in my own wife a realization about how bad things must have been that no amount of talking or fighting ever managed to do. I wouldn't go so far as to say that it made my marriage better, but it would also be wrong to say that absolutely no good came from it.
> 
> ...


I can see that scenario. There could be some couples that are in terrible shape and one or both aren't really pulling their head out to take a look at just how bad it is until one of them blows up what's left and they are forced to look at it.

I will admit there are some who would choose to start doing what it took to build a real marriage afterwards.

You pretty much have to have a dead marriage to begin with for me to see this scenario happening.


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

I would say that my marriage is better now than it was before I had a ONS. However, we are 7 years down the road from there.

Would it have been great to get to this point without that, absolutely. Do I know if that was possible, no I don't. There is not a time that the thought of it doesn't fill me with remorse and regret for not being able to express the issues we were having.

It was a horrible choice that sent shockwaves through almost every aspect of my life and that of my wife. I am glad that we are still together and that she choose to forgive me and rebuild a marriage. It wasn't easy, but I believe she is glad that she did and she is sorry for her part in our early marriage. Not that it was her fault at all, it was completely my choice to do it.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

So quite simply, this is yet another article on "open marriages and why they are good". Fair enough, but these are not affairs. They are breeding grounds for affairs (just like unhappy marriages or with entitled selfish spouses) but they are not affairs.

I guess people need to get themselves published and its much more titillating to write about open marriages than try and push the monogamy angle.

Still they need to find something new to write about. I have heard that in some parts of the world incestuous marriages are the rave. Maybe there is something to write about. Lets see what the "open-minded" public can stomach. I can certainly write about why they might be good.

Save family assets by not sharing them with outsiders. Lifelong partners that you know, understand and trust. The ability to not have to waste time looking for a partner when you have one right there.

The only downside might be inbred diseases in offspring but now that modern science has found a way to avoid those too, why the hell not.

OK end of sarcasm.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Marduk said:


> People have started relationships with their kidnappers, aka the Nightengale effect. Also with those abusing them. With murderers in prison on death row. With addicts. With sex workers forced into the industry.
> 
> All kinds of negative, hostile, and abusive scenarios have resulted in “positive” relationships.
> 
> ...


Who hasn't heard the story of the guy who treats his body like a dumpster for 40 years, has a heart attack and triple bypass, then goes on to get healthy, eat right, exercise, and run marathons?

Separating the fact that good things can come from bad actions from the advice that you should do the bad things is all I'm driving at here. No one would advocate giving yourself a heart attack as the right way to get healthy, yet for a select few, it was exactly the wake-up call they needed.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I do not think the affair EVER improves the marriage. The way a couple chooses to respond to the affair and move forward CAN create a marriage that was in better shape than the old one was. Just like the death of a child or a debilitating accident doesn't MAKE a marriage better, but how a couple copes with those circumstances can affect the marriage.

If the WS is truly remorseful, works hard, is transparent, patient, and sincere AND the BS is able to relinquish their right to punish and use the "trump card" and commit to really BEING married again.....I think a marriage can flourish.

Unfortunately, many marriages that have "survived" an affair are obviously really just penance and prisons that no one has the guts to end because either they feel to guilty or because the secondary gain of being the "good" spouse is too intoxicating to grow beyond.

All you have to do is read the bitterness and animosity reeking from some of the words of so-called "recovered" spouses. They love the power of the misery they can inflict more than they actually love themselves.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> You pretty much have to have a dead marriage to begin with for me to see this scenario happening.


Well, I don't know that I agree with this completely. You may need to have one piece of your marriage on death's door - but then, for anyone reading this forum, we see people's sex lives in just this state every day, even when married to otherwise good people.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Tasorundo said:


> I would say that my marriage is better now than it was before I had a ONS. However, we are 7 years down the road from there.


Yes, I'm 15 years out now. We lost some things, and we gained some things. It's hard to put them on each side of a balance to decide which was "more", but I would have to say it's better too.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Well, I don't know that I agree with this completely. You may need to have one piece of your marriage on death's door - but then, for anyone reading this forum, we see people's sex lives in just this state every day, even when married to otherwise good people.


I'm definitely using my own standards. Mrs. C and I have been through a lot over the years and we have probably had one area at death's door on more than one occasion.

I would not consider infidelity a wake up call in these circumstances but a deathblow to a sick or injured patient that had a great chance at full recovery until some maniac blew their damn brains out.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Cletus said:


> Who hasn't heard the story of the guy who treats his body like a dumpster for 40 years, has a heart attack and triple bypass, then goes on to get healthy, eat right, exercise, and run marathons?
> 
> 
> 
> Separating the fact that good things can come from bad actions from the advice that you should do the bad things is all I'm driving at here. No one would advocate giving yourself a heart attack as the right way to get healthy, yet for a select few, it was exactly the wake-up call they needed.



I’m sure there are examples of people shooting themselves, surviving, and ending up in the hospital only to discover that they have a fatal disease that can be corrected that would not have been discovered otherwise.

So by your logic, people should shoot themselves to get healthier.

This is what thinking like this endorses when it comes to marriages. Only they’re taking aim at both themselves and their spouse.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Cletus said:


> Separating the fact that good things can come from bad actions from the advice that you should do the bad things is all I'm driving at here. *No one would advocate giving yourself a heart attack as the right way to get healthy*, yet for a select few, it was exactly the wake-up call they needed.





Marduk said:


> I’m sure there are examples of people shooting themselves, surviving, and ending up in the hospital only to discover that they have a fatal disease that can be corrected that would not have been discovered otherwise.
> 
> So by your logic, people should shoot themselves to get healthier.


I SPECIFICALLY discounted this. You'll need to find another straw man to argue with.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

StarFires said:


> But there are lots of stories and data about marriages that survived infidelity, most of which say their marriage became stronger.


I consider my marriage one of them, but it got better in spite of the affair, not because of it.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Cletus said:


> I SPECIFICALLY discounted this. You'll need to find another straw man to argue with.



A couple things.

The first of which is to beware the unintended consequences. You may read this stuff and think to yourself “well, terrible stuff happens but perhaps some good can be made of it,” which is all fine and good. Except that lots of people don’t read it that way. What they internalize is that if they’re not happy, maybe they should go ahead and have an affair - they get their fun, and maybe they even get a better marriage as a result. So they win twice, and even their spouse wins. So they go do that, and then are shocked and distraught at how their life blows up as a consequence. Rationalization is a powerful thing.

I actually have an extended family member that did this exact thing, and has had her life slowly unwind itself as a consequence. She actually claimed that she thought that she would be a better wife to her husband by having an affair specifically citing articles and books like this - Esther Perel is a leading example of this kind of rationalization nonsense.

Secondly, thinking this way is lazy thinking in my opinion. One should seek to improve oneself by any means possible - including when you find yourself in a crappy situation. But I think the highest good that can come of finding yourself in a crappy situation that you created for yourself isn’t just to leverage the current situation - it’s to do the deep work to ensure you never cause that situation again. For yourself, and for those around you. 

You may become a better swimmer by being a terrible sailor and sinking your boat. It’s good to learn how to swim better. It’s better to learn how to never sink your boat again. It’s best to have been a better sailor before you ever set out to begin with.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

If someone were to ask, "Can falling face first into glass shards improve vision?", the answer is an emphatic yes. Did you know that vision correction techniques like LASIK were discovered when a boy fell and got glass shards stuck in his eye? After he had surgery to remove them, doctors were surprised to find that his vision was better. It turned out when the cuts from the glass and surgery healed, it changed the shape of the lens in such a way that it fixed his vision. However, the more relevant question to people with vision problems would be "Is it likely that falling face first into glass shards will improve vision?". The answer to that question is an emphatic no. 

Regardless of whether open marriages or affairs improve bad marriages, the negative outcome is so likely that it's not really a viable way to improve things. There are many other things that can be tried which have a much higher chance of success and much less likely to cause disastrous outcomes if they don't work.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

IMHO, articles like this are dangerous, because to me it seems like they imply that a person can improve their marriage by being unfaithful. Some come right out and say that, and some do only imply it, but the idea that the way to "improve" something is by causing tremendous damage to it is silly. 

Now...I am living proof that a person can be unfaithful and live and grow and become a better person when healing from it, but would it be wiser to never cause the damage in the first place, and learn and grow and become a better person of your own accord? In other words, yes, I learned a lot about myself and marriage because I devastated the marriage and had to rebuild from scratch! And yep, I can see the argument on the occasion that some marriages are built poorly and need to be rebuilt in a more healthy dynamic, but would you really do all the devastating damage first? Or would you both agree to tear down together, get to the foundation, and rebuild? Which actually "improves" the marriage?

On the very rare occasion, a partner has the courage to admit they were wrong and stop--and the other partner has the courage and grace to reconcile and forgive...but that is extremely difficult. On the very rare occasion a married couple can "find the silver lining" and because they do the real work on themselves as individuals and as a couple, they can rise like a phoenix from the ashes. But to advocate that someone purposefully do this is just reckless, in my opinion. It's like advocating people set themselves on fire "to get clearer skin." 

Instead of advocating for an affair "to improve their marriage" how about if we advocate loving-kindness? Learning how to be compassionate? Looking at the man in the mirror and becoming better people? Being in the moment? Taking personal responsibility? Being emotionally, mentally, spiritually and physically intimate and transparent with your partner? Yeah...that will go a LOT farther than ethical non-monogamy. 

Now, that being said, I don't have a beef with those who choose a lifestyle of transparent non-monogamy because to my mind, it's none of my business what folks do in their bedroom, and if they agree to it, it's their relationship. But even ethically non-monogamous partners would improve if they were loving and kind to one another, compassionate, mindful, personally responsible, and fully transparent. Why promote adultery? Promote becoming a better person!


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

It's a logic fallacy to link cheating with an improved marriage. Coincidence is not causality.

Also, utter tripe and article click-bait for some pseudo-expert to make money.


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