# My wife thinks she is in love with a co-worker



## gridcom

Hi all. I am suddenly faced with the news that my wife just this week got intimate with a co-worker who she claims she has been in love with for a year unbeknownst to me. We have been together 19 years, and married for 13 years. We have two girls, ages 10 and 5. She wants this marriage to end so she can "follow her heart" and pursue a new life with this man. She admits her desire for this is so strong that it comes before all the obvious consequences.
I, of course, am devastated. Unfortunately, I cannot claim to be the best husband or a victim. I have taken much of this marriage for granted and although I have never strayed myself and have scored highly when it comes to being a provider, friend and father, when it comes to being a partner I admittedly have failed. I do love my wife very much and I am sure that I have my own emotional issues that have never been addressed. She has been the giver and I have been the taker and now, of course, I'm consumed with regret and fear. I am also dwelling on the negative side of me. I think there is a caring and loving side of me (towards her) that is being buried right now. 

I have reached out to a number of therapists. I have yet to talk to one. I feel we need to talk to someone right away. I am not sure why I feel that it needs to be right away, other than I feel that her taking it to a physical level this week has greatly accelerated these feelings and she admits that she cannot help herself. Her mood and demeanor has shifted a few times over the course of this week, from agreeing to end it with this man and work towards therapy both as a couple and individually (for me) to the total opposite where she is trying to provoke me into losing my sh*t by telling me in every way how this love is for real and there is no coming back from it. Of course, I want to explore every last option.

This sucks in every way. Maybe you all can help


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## Nomorebeans

Is this co-worker married?

If so, you need to expose the affair to her. And to all your family members (not the kids quite yet) and friends.

Your wife is deep in the Affair Fog, but not deep enough that she isn't at least considering an R. She may be doing that because she's unsure of her AP's long-term availability, which hints to me he may be married, or much younger, or something. And that you're her Plan B. You also can't know for sure that the PA only just started. Cheaters will say anything - i.e.,will shamelessly lie - to justify the terrible thing they deep down know they've done.

Very sorry you're here and yet another member of the club I also never expected or wanted to join.


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## bandit.45

Give her what she wants. Let her go. Don't be mean, don't beg, don't follow her around like a lost pup. Let her go. 

Use her fog to get the best divorce settlement from her that you can. Be amicable...see a lawyer and draw up the papers, expose her affair to family and friends, then do the 180.


*Many BS's are urged to go No Contact with their WS after ALL ELSE has failed.


This 180 list may help.
--------------------------


For those that are interested in Michelle Weiner Davis's divorce busting 180 degree list, here it is:

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore.
2. No frequent phone calls.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage.
4. Do not follow him/her around the house.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
6. Do not ask for help from family members.
7. Do not ask for reassurances.
8. Do not buy gifts.
9. Do not schedule dates together.
10. Do not spy on spouse.
11. Do not say "I Love You".
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what she will be missing
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show him/her someone he/she would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).
21. Never lose your cool.
22. Don't be overly enthusiastic.
23. Do not argue about how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger).
24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and possibly walk away.
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil).
28. Be strong and confident.
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because they are hurting and scared.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34. Do not backslide from your hard-earned changes.*


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## FeministInPink

She's in the affair fog right now. 

I don't have good advice, because this is not my area of expertise. But there are lots of people on TAM who can give you good advice. You should check out the "Coping with Infidelity" section--you'll find lots of good advice givers there. You might want to ask a mod to move your thread to that section--you'll get a lot more response there.

Good luck!


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## Dude007

bandit.45 said:


> give her what she wants. Let her go. Don't be mean, don't beg, don't follow her around like a lost pup. Let her go.
> 
> Use her fog to get the best divorce settlement from her that you can. Be amicable...see a lawyer and draw up the papers, expose her affair to family and friends, then do the 180.
> 
> 
> *many bs's are urged to go no contact with their ws after all else has failed.
> 
> 
> This 180 list may help.
> --------------------------
> 
> 
> for those that are interested in michelle weiner davis's divorce busting 180 degree list, here it is:
> 
> 1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore.
> 2. No frequent phone calls.
> 3. Do not point out good points in marriage.
> 4. Do not follow him/her around the house.
> 5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
> 6. Do not ask for help from family members.
> 7. Do not ask for reassurances.
> 8. Do not buy gifts.
> 9. Do not schedule dates together.
> 10. Do not spy on spouse.
> 11. Do not say "i love you".
> 12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
> 13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
> 14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
> 15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words.
> 16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse her whereabouts, ask nothing.
> 17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
> 18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what she will be missing
> 19. No matter what you are feeling today, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show him/her someone he/she would want to be around.
> 20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).
> 21. Never lose your cool.
> 22. Don't be overly enthusiastic.
> 23. Do not argue about how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger).
> 24. Be patient
> 25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you.
> 26. Learn to back off, shut up and possibly walk away.
> 27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil).
> 28. Be strong and confident.
> 29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest consistent actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.
> 30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy.
> 31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.
> 32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because they are hurting and scared.
> 33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
> 34. Do not backslide from your hard-earned changes.*


181 find out if co-workers wife is hot you might get a shania twain!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Thor

The strong move right now is to immediately file for divorce. And expose widely to her family and respected friends. This has the highest probability of breaking her affair.

Also, you stand to get the best custody and monetary settlement from a divorce if you do it quickly. If she doesn't come out of the fog, and if the divorce goes through quickly, she is likely to give in easily.

You can always give her more than the court requires, if you want. So if you get a really good settlement now you can always give more later. But if you get screwed in court, you can never give less!


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## bandit.45

Act, act, act, act, act!!!


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## Thor

At the very least you need to talk to an attorney right now, today. Find out how things work where you live for people in your circumstances. Custody, alimony, child support, division of assets, any pensions, retirement accounts, inheritances, etc.

Find out if infidelity or fault are an issue in any way, especially for alimony.

In some places, if you have sex with her after finding out about the affair it is seen by the court as forgiveness. This could mean you pay her alimony forever! So do not have sex with her until you talk to an attorney.

Get yourself tested for the full array of sexually transmitted diseases. I suggest you go to your county health department or other specialty clinic rather than your primary care doc. Some you can't get reliable results for 90 days, e.g. herpes and HIV. You'll also want to go back after 6 months to have those 2 repeated just to make sure.


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## Thor

Gridcom, we've seen many many situations like yours here. Please seriously consider the advice you receive even if it seems harsh. Go to the Coping With Infidelity forum and browse a bit.

A few quick pointers:

1) You cannot "Nice" her into coming back or loving you. Now is not the time to be more loving, attentive, or do more chores around the house.

2) Both spouses are always imperfect, but only the cheater is responsible for the cheating. Yes, you have likely made mistakes in your marriage. You can certainly look at yourself and try to improve yourself in the future. But never ever blame yourself for you wife choosing to cheat. She could have, and was obligated to, come to you a year ago to say she was having issues with the marriage. If you were so terrible as a husband, she could have and should have divorced you. But instead she chose to cheat. She could have and should have detected she was developing an emotional attachment to someone else, and she should have stopped herself from getting in any deeper.

3) Exposure of the affair takes away the fun and naughty aspect of it. Exposure is one good tool for breaking the affair. Exposure is not for retaliation or humiliation, but to try to break the affair.

4) If the OM is married, let his wife know. She deserves to know what is going on.

5) Consider gathering intel. Keylog the computer, gather phone records, gather credit card and debit card records, etc. Document what has been going on. Consider putting a VAR in her car or where she may make calls in the house. This data is not for court nor for public dissemination to family or friends. It is so you can know the extent of what is going on. See next item...

6) You cannot believe anything she tells you now. Cheaters will frequently deny, minimize, and gaslight. The fact she admits things to you is quite rare. After confronted with proof, most cheaters say they have ended the affair but they take it underground. Beware of this with your wife. There is likely far far more to the story already than you know. In the future you have to verify everything yourself. Don't believe her stories.


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## Lon

gridcom said:


> Hi all. I am suddenly faced with the news that my wife just this week got intimate with a co-worker who she claims she has been in love with for a year unbeknownst to me. We have been together 19 years, and married for 13 years. We have two girls, ages 10 and 5. She wants this marriage to end so she can "follow her heart" and pursue a new life with this man. She admits her desire for this is so strong that it comes before all the obvious consequences.
> I, of course, am devastated. Unfortunately, I cannot claim to be the best husband or a victim. I have taken much of this marriage for granted and although I have never strayed myself and have scored highly when it comes to being a provider, friend and father, when it comes to being a partner I admittedly have failed. I do love my wife very much and I am sure that I have my own emotional issues that have never been addressed. She has been the giver and I have been the taker and now, of course, I'm consumed with regret and fear. I am also dwelling on the negative side of me. I think there is a caring and loving side of me (towards her) that is being buried right now.
> 
> I have reached out to a number of therapists. I have yet to talk to one. I feel we need to talk to someone right away. I am not sure why I feel that it needs to be right away, other than I feel that her taking it to a physical level this week has greatly accelerated these feelings and she admits that she cannot help herself. Her mood and demeanor has shifted a few times over the course of this week, from agreeing to end it with this man and work towards therapy both as a couple and individually (for me) to the total opposite where she is trying to provoke me into losing my sh*t by telling me in every way how this love is for real and there is no coming back from it. Of course, I want to explore every last option.
> 
> This sucks in every way. Maybe you all can help


Your W's decision to have an affair is ALL on her, do not accept any blame or responsibility for her actions.

Yes, she's in an affair fog but right now you are in the betrayed spouse smog. Do not let her rewrite history (tell you that she has been miserable for the past 18 months or whatever, despite you have family photos from a wonderful vacation just this past winter etc).

Yes you were both unsatisfied with unfulfilled needs, but she is the one that chose to seek to have them fulfilled by someone outside the marriage.

Do like others are suggesting (do not beg, plead or accept blame for her choice) instead go quiet, observe and watch but don't speak - bust up her affair by exposing it to her parents, friends, co-workers whoever would take an interest in helping hold her accountable to her vows. If she was unhappy she had plenty of time to figure out how to make it work within the marriage or at the least end it before jumping in bed with some other guy.

You are getting good advice on here already so I'll just say that I'm in complete agreement with Thor and Bandit, and suggest following that advice.


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## MarriedDude

gridcom said:


> Hi all. I am suddenly faced with the news that my wife just this week got intimate with a co-worker who she claims she has been in love with for a year unbeknownst to me. We have been together 19 years, and married for 13 years. We have two girls, ages 10 and 5. *She wants this marriage to end so she can "follow her heart" and pursue a new life with this man. She admits her desire for this is so strong that it comes before all the obvious consequences.*
> I, of course, am devastated. Unfortunately, I cannot claim to be the best husband or a victim. I have taken much of this marriage for granted and although I have never strayed myself and have scored highly when it comes to being a provider, friend and father, when it comes to being a partner I admittedly have failed. I do love my wife very much and I am sure that I have my own emotional issues that have never been addressed. She has been the giver and I have been the taker and now, of course, I'm consumed with regret and fear. I am also dwelling on the negative side of me. I think there is a caring and loving side of me (towards her) that is being buried right now.
> 
> I have reached out to a number of therapists. I have yet to talk to one. I feel we need to talk to someone right away. I am not sure why I feel that it needs to be right away, other than I feel that her taking it to a physical level this week has greatly accelerated these feelings and she admits that she cannot help herself. Her mood and demeanor has shifted a few times over the course of this week, from agreeing to end it with this man and work towards therapy both as a couple and individually (for me) to the total opposite where she is trying to provoke me into losing my sh*t by telling me in every way how this love is for real and there is no coming back from it. Of course, I want to explore every last option.
> 
> This sucks in every way. Maybe you all can help


Your only good move is to allow her to "follow her heart" -and then live with the consequences. We all know the road her "heart" has her on is a dead end....Protect yourself, your children and your assets immediately. Get an attorney, get the ball rolling. She is only gonna be in this fog for so long -then she's gonna turn mean -very mean and nasty and many of her decisions (asinine as they are) are going to be laid at your feet. 

Strike while the fog is thick -to protect your family. Once it's all said and done and final -if you want her back -I'm sure you could have her...(if you'd want her).


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## gridcom

Thanks all, I guess. I'll be honest I am shocked by these responses, and perhaps in denial. I need you all to know that I have done some crummy things, mainly being a self absorbed jerk. Just jerky things. Being a ****, basically. She has warned me that she was at the end of her rope MANY times, but I was in denial about that until this week. The end of her rope comments, the occasional "we're done" comments, would always be at the end of a fight. We are both Italian and raised Italian and to me, you fight, you get it out, and it's over. Again, I've done some ****ty things. We fought in March and it was a bad one (over total nonsense, but we're both pretty stubborn) and my reaction was to tell her I was going to see a lawyer when I never went and saw a lawyer. Shameful petty ****. See? I told you this isnt all on her. I know I am coming down hard on myself, and at my core I am a good, caring guy. I'm emotional and have great care and, again in my defense, am a terrific husband in many ways. Certainly a terrific father. 


Now, the cut is deep and my reaction to it has been exactly what you all have told me not to do. Unbelieveable regret and yearning to "make it up to her", to head dive into therapy to fix whatever it is inside me that not only makes me a ****, but why I cant see it while it's happening. In many ways, I am a very introverted person when it comes to these matters. I am weirdly emotional and thus I try and hide my flaws from others (as I have known they exist but never sought out why). I feel like I want to tell our loved ones that I am the one who is flawed and ask them for guidance and encouragment and to root for me while I get to the bottom of it and become the husband that she has wanted me to be. 

And I am reading that I need to go to a lawyer and beat her to the punch and get tested for STD's and all this and that, and as you can imagine my reaction is simply "No! we can overcome this!" Our children, our two amazing daughters, would be devastated beyond belief. Even if it was her straw that broke the camels back, they'd never forgive me, because, say what you will, I 100% feel at fault. I took her for granted and now I got burned

You need to know that

I dont think the man in question is married, but I'd imagine he's younger. I dont know anything about him and dont want to know. I just want him to go away.

Thank you all. It feels good just to write. I am a mess right now.


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## jld

Of course you can overcome this, grid com. I think it is very promising that you already see your own hand in your troubles.

I will post a link shortly that will show you how. Just have to get to a PC.

It is going to be okay. You can change, and earn back her trust.


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## Lon

The problem, right now, is not whether you are a nice guy or deserve to be married to anyone, the problem right now is your wife is in an affair. And not is she just in an affair and you are losing her, she actively did this behind your back knowing full well it is wrong. The reason you are being advised to get counselling now is because whether you admit it or not you are in a crisis, and that is what counsellors are there for (to help you do what you believe is right when your bearings have been messed with).


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## Yeswecan

gridcom said:


> Thanks all, I guess. I'll be honest I am shocked by these responses, and perhaps in denial. I need you all to know that I have done some crummy things, mainly being a self absorbed jerk. Just jerky things. Being a ****, basically. She has warned me that she was at the end of her rope MANY times, but I was in denial about that until this week. The end of her rope comments, the occasional "we're done" comments, would always be at the end of a fight. We are both Italian and raised Italian and to me, you fight, you get it out, and it's over. Again, I've done some ****ty things. We fought in March and it was a bad one (over total nonsense, but we're both pretty stubborn) and my reaction was to tell her I was going to see a lawyer when I never went and saw a lawyer. Shameful petty ****. See? I told you this isnt all on her. I know I am coming down hard on myself, and at my core I am a good, caring guy. I'm emotional and have great care and, again in my defense, am a terrific husband in many ways. Certainly a terrific father.
> 
> 
> Now, the cut is deep and my reaction to it has been exactly what you all have told me not to do. Unbelieveable regret and yearning to "make it up to her", to head dive into therapy to fix whatever it is inside me that not only makes me a ****, but why I cant see it while it's happening. In many ways, I am a very introverted person when it comes to these matters. I am weirdly emotional and thus I try and hide my flaws from others (as I have known they exist but never sought out why). I feel like I want to tell our loved ones that I am the one who is flawed and ask them for guidance and encouragment and to root for me while I get to the bottom of it and become the husband that she has wanted me to be.
> 
> And I am reading that I need to go to a lawyer and beat her to the punch and get tested for STD's and all this and that, and as you can imagine my reaction is simply "No! we can overcome this!" Our children, our two amazing daughters, would be devastated beyond belief. Even if it was her straw that broke the camels back, they'd never forgive me, because, say what you will, I 100% feel at fault. I took her for granted and now I got burned
> 
> You need to know that
> 
> I dont think the man in question is married, but I'd imagine he's younger. I dont know anything about him and dont want to know. I just want him to go away.
> 
> Thank you all. It feels good just to write. I am a mess right now.


Ok, you have been less than stellar in the H department. You own that. However, don't own the affair. That is all your WW poor decision. The correct answer from your W was to file for D. Then move on with her life.


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## jld

This can save your marriage.

Reconciliation with a Hardened Wife


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## gridcom

Sorry is there a place where I can learn all this shorthand? The "D", the "WW"?


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## SadSamIAm

Your wife will respect you if you stand up for your marriage. 

Tell her you know you have been an '*ss' but that doesn't excuse her cheating. Tell her that unless she agrees to end the affair and go to counseling with you, you will be filing for divorce. 

I am thinking she will tell you she is done with you.

Then you need to act. File for divorce. Do the 180. 

If you beg and wine and plead she will lose respect and attraction for you. You need to be strong and show her that you won't tolerate her cheating.

It is very important that you tell everyone what is going on. Tell his wife if he is married. Tell her parents. Get this affair out in the open. Affairs typically lose a bunch of the excitement once it is out in the open. If this guy is married, then he might very well choose his family over your wife. He might have been using your wife and never planned on giving up his marriage for her.


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## GusPolinski

gridcom said:


> Sorry is there a place where I can learn all this shorthand? The "D", the "WW"?


Divorce and Wayward Wife


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## GusPolinski

jld said:


> This can save your marriage.
> 
> Reconciliation with a Hardened Wife


I would also like to share a link...

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/277666-timing-everything.html


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## jld

GusPolinski said:


> I would also like to share a link...
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/277666-timing-everything.html


How is that related to mine?


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## Yeswecan

gridcom said:


> Sorry is there a place where I can learn all this shorthand? The "D", the "WW"?


D=divorce/divorce papers
WW=wandering/wayward wife


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## GusPolinski

jld said:


> How is that related to mine?


It's not.

And that's the point.


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## gridcom

Thank you guys for all of these comments. I am going to continue to post here. The JLD post of Reconciliation with a hardened wife (link above) was the absolute best thing I've read and I'm not even a believer in a specific God. I found comfort in that article and JLD I thank you for posting it. We are actually going to see a Marriage Councilor tonight and honestly while it's 10 years overdue, at the same time it's not too late. Despite all of the instruction to act hard and fast with a lawyer, I am going to chose to generate love between myself and my wife. Roll your eyes, go ahead. Maybe your right. I love my wife.


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## Happilymarried25

Most of the people on this board say to anyone who's spouse has an affair to a 180 and divorce so don't be too surprised at the responses. I think your marriage can be saved especially since you admit you haven't been a good husband and want to change to keep your family together. 

It won't work unless she wants it to work and the first step is for her to stop seeing this man. If she won't then your marriage can't be saved and don't just go by her saying she isn't seeing him anymore. She needs to find another job so they are not in contact with each other anymore. Good luck I hope she does give you another chance and comes back to you.


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## Iver

Not wanting to add to your woes with more bad news but you need to find out who the OM (other man) is. 

You have two young children who, if your wife continues on this path, will be living with this man at least part time.

You need to find out if he has any history of criminal activity, DUI's, etc in his background.

Yep, it sucks.


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## bandit.45

Good luck niceing her back. Please check in once in a while and let us know how that goes.


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## ConanHub

If not going for divorce, then the resource from jld is quite useful but you can't let her off the hook for fvcking another man and putting her crotch above the well being of her marriage and children.

You are not responsible for her disgusting behavior.

You are responsible for your part in the poor state of your marriage.

She has to switch jobs immediately.

If she doesn't go no contact right away, you are wasting your efforts because the other man will keep fvcking your wife like a cheap piece.

If reconciliation isn't going to work, take advantage of her stupidity and get a favorable divorce like bandit said.

If she doesn't fully face the ugly woman she has become here you two won't be able to face and work through your marital issues.

Her infidelity needs dealt with as her own issue. You didn't make her stop caring about the welfare of her children over pleasuring herself with another penis.

If she won't stop immediately, quit her job and deal with her infidelity as her vile choice, then you are whistling in the wind if you think your marriage has a chance.

It takes two and when one of you is fvcking an idiot, you, needless to say, have no hope of repairing your marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub

P.S. Might want to check if she is pregnant, affair sex is often unprotected because people who cheat are usually being pretty damned stupid. Get her to have a full STD test as well as you. Morons that bang married women aren't exactly upstanding citizens and who knows where he has been sticking his penis besides your wife.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Vulcan2013

Jld's approach is really solid, *once she's out of the affair. MC is worthless when someone is in an active affair. *. You can't compete with the high of a new, illicit relationship. You are basically dealing with an addict, and begging, reasoning, will only work against you. 

You don't want to file D, but you need to fight for the marriage. Something between the nuclear option and degrading yourself is called for. 

Suggested actions:

1. Investigate. Check out @weightlifters standard evidence thread. Find out who the OM is. 
2. Apologize *once* for your contributions to the marital problems. Do not let her blame you in any way for her decision to destroy the M and family. 
3. Expose to family and close friends. Not in a vindictive way, but asking for help and support. She will be furious and tell you that there is no chance for R now. This is important, it will kill the fun of the new relationship. 
4. Expose to the POSOM's wife if he's married. If he's not, expose to his family. 
5. Look into the 180 and live it. It will help you keep your sanity. 
6. Lift weights. A lot. 
7. See a lawyer to understand your rights. 
8. Get a VAR (voice activated recorder). She may try to accuse you of domestic violence and have you removed. Our society will take her word over yours. She'll be a victim, you'll be a monster. Even if it's illegal in your state, better to have that evidence and protect yourself. 
9. Don't tell her any of this before you do it.


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## Nomorebeans

gridcom said:


> Thank you guys for all of these comments. I am going to continue to post here. The JLD post of Reconciliation with a hardened wife (link above) was the absolute best thing I've read and I'm not even a believer in a specific God. I found comfort in that article and JLD I thank you for posting it. We are actually going to see a Marriage Councilor tonight and honestly while it's 10 years overdue, at the same time it's not too late. Despite all of the instruction to act hard and fast with a lawyer, I am going to chose to generate love between myself and my wife. Roll your eyes, go ahead. Maybe your right. I love my wife.


I tried to nice my wayward husband back when I first found out about his OW. Took full responsibility for his cheating at first, even apologized to him for being the sh!tty wife he never once told me I was until after I found out. Didn't work. Ended up hating myself for it. Had I told everyone the truth as soon as I found out about it, I would have at least ended that affair. They all know the truth now and are disgusted by his behavior and have told him so, but it's too late. I didn't find TAM in time. Their bond just got stronger because I let it.

I hope your wife is truly committed to reconciling with you. But I'll say again that she seems unsure of the AP's long-term intentions. If she doesn't tell you who he is, and if she is not willing to go 100% No Contact with him, you have an underground affair on your hands. She will continue to see him but will just get sneakier about it. You will be her Plan B, in case he doesn't work out because he chooses to stay with his wife or fiancée or partner, or because he's much younger and really wasn't looking for a long-term commitment with a divorced woman with kids.

I hope I'm wrong. But please make sure you know exactly who he is, what his story is, and that you get assurance there is absolutely no further contact. Any counselor worth their salt will advise the same. If you're unwilling to demand this of her, or if you're willing to accept her not giving you this, you're fooling yourself. And jeopardizing your kids' and your own future.


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## turnera

Thor said:


> The strong move right now is to immediately file for divorce. And expose widely to her family and respected friends. This has the highest probability of breaking her affair.
> 
> Also, you stand to get the best custody and monetary settlement from a divorce if you do it quickly. If she doesn't come out of the fog, and if the divorce goes through quickly, she is likely to give in easily.
> 
> You can always give her more than the court requires, if you want. So if you get a really good settlement now you can always give more later. But if you get screwed in court, you can never give less!


This.

If you want her back, YOU MUST EXPOSE the affair to her parents, her siblings, her best friend, and her pastor, if applicable. She will NEVER STOP CHEATING if you don't expose. 

That's not a guarantee that she will come back to you, but the single best chance to stop an affair is to shine light on it to her VIPs, the people whose respect she craves. Seeing them KNOWING what she's doing is the strongest way to stop it.

The second strongest way to stop it is to immediately file, REFUSE to be her 'friend,' and let her see you cutting off all ties with her; i.e., kicking her out in the dust. A wakeup call, if you will.


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## turnera

Happilymarried25 said:


> Most of the people on this board say to anyone who's spouse has an affair to a 180 and divorce so don't be too surprised at the responses. I think your marriage can be saved especially since you admit you haven't been a good husband and want to change to keep your family together.
> 
> It won't work unless she wants it to work and the first step is for her to stop seeing this man.


Which is why you MUST expose the affair. She will never give him up unless staying with him brings her too much grief and shame.

And please understand most women can love only one man at a time. She gave up on you, found a 'new' man who she could love, and THEN committed to leaving you. Remember that.

For her to then give up on HIM, she has to have a reason.


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## gridcom

Hi everybody. Thanks for the communication. Some of it is still confusing to me, honestly. Some of it I read and I hate to read it. I feel like I am in a unique situation. I feel like her and I have always connected on a higher level, which is really narcissistic. If I read those last two sentences, not knowing the nuances or dynamics of the situation, I would be the first person saying "YOU ARE A DAMN FOOL". 

I have really been consistently a shi**y partner for years, have taken her for granted for years. She has been my rock for years and I totally went about life assuming she would always be there and her "heart would never harden" to me. Some of you are really hard on her, and while I understand it from an outsiders perspective, I really let it happen. Unhappily married, tells her husband 100 different ways, he doesnt listen/doesnt think she's serious, she starts confiding in a co-worker and they start connecting. She starts to think there may be happiness elsewhere (because there's no happiness here), she makes a play for the guy, and it's reciprocated. Boom. I had it coming. 

My reaction to this (i found out about the physical part of the affair less than an house after it happened) after the initial shock and sadness, I immediately started to understand that I was really a horrible husband. She has a catalogue of crappy behavior on my part, almost all of it just nitpicky poor bedside manner, ball busting, general lack of compassion and kindness. While I may have been loyal and worked hard for the family and actually have an unbelievable love for this woman, I never showed it for reasons I hope to get to the bottom to. 

Anyway, I feel that I have done some tremendous things this week and if there was a perfect way to react, to demonstrate real remorse, to demonstrate real love for this woman, to do exactly the right things to demonstrate that I can in fact be humbled to my knees and almost be reborn, I have done it. I'm very proud of how I have reacted to all of this so far, with a compassion that I have chosen not to demonstrate in a very long time. I have spent this entire week taking stock of all the ways and habits that have led me to fail this woman, from being overworked to always reacting to her cry's by ether not listening to her, being in denial about what she was asking for, or telling her she was to blame for whatever trival issue we were arguing about. I also began to recognize that if I really wanted to be a better man, I was going to need to humble myself to some people close to me by basically telling them that I was a poor husband and sometimes just a real jerk in general and opening up to people in a way I never have, in hopes that some of the right people would care enough to be good council to me and/or at least cheer me on as I begin this quest to be a better man. I am actually trying to look at this act of her cheating and falling for another man as a blessing. I feel that if she never did this, if this never happened, she would have went the rest of her life being unfulfilled, as by simply asking me to change wouldnt have been enough (because it wasnt in the past). It also enabled me to stop the the zombie like life I was living; work, work, work, while she was the homemakers/roommate/mother of my children/sex partner and REALLY take a moment (so far a week) and take an assesment of my 43 years on the planet, my level of happiness, and what I ultimately wanted in the end. I heard a term sometime ago that nobody on their deathbed says that they wish they could have worked harder, and even though it's not new to me, I've been thinking about that a lot. I complain to my wife about my life passing before my eyes, about how times is flying faster and faster, yet I can spend literally 14 hours a day working more often than not. I hope through all of this you can at least understand the underlinings of why it went down the way it did. And you can say she had a real crummy way of going about it, but any other way wouldnt have jolted me the way this has jolted me. No other way would have cut this deep. 

We went to one session of marriage therapy, and I came out of it with a lot of hope for myself specifically. I felt we were fortunate enough to find a therapist who we'd think was good for us, and so far I feel like we have. She goes to see him alone tomorrow and I go alone on Wednesday. There are some emotional hangups I've had for my whole life that I think contibute to my creating distance on purpose between myself and those I love the most. I am going to pay $270 a session to get to the bottom of it 

Another thing that has happened is that my wife and I have existed with her being a life long believer in God and follower of her faith, and I am simply agnostic. I have decided this week that I am going to go to church with her and the kids starting next week; not because I'm going to cult myself into believing in God, but because there is a community of people there that are actually HER rock, while she was MY rock. I think I can look past all the God in heaven, everybody in white robes floating around with loved ones in a state of forever bliss and take out of it the support she gets. My whole life right now is surrounded by work/business relationships, a few lifelong friends, and my wife. I keep my circle small and I dont think that's been to my benefit.

We actually went on a date last night, initiated by me and she was cool with it. We spoke about our issues on our way to visit friends of ours who's marriage we admire and were looking for some inspiration, then went to a bar and saw a band, had a few drinks and laughs amd it was really natural and good and amazing that we are a week removed from such a heavy event. I called my friend this morning who we saw last night and told him what was happening, and he revealed to me that him and his wife dealt with strangely similar issues (with his wife in my role) and just finished two straight years marriage counciling. I was kind of blown away by this and it further solidified the idea that I need to not be so private about the s*it in my life, as nobody is perfect.

Meanwhile, my wife wants me to continue doing what I am doing but not obsess over it (as in, not write a novel on the Talkaboutmarriage website) and just focus on my plan. But, at the same time, she is strong in her feelings for this new man and while she has promised that she will cut out the physical part of their relationship, she wants to continue the communciation with him. Therein lies the current, most obvious problem with all of this. It's a roadblock in our rebuilding this thing but she steadfastly maintains that while I am doing all the right things and owning up to all of my past jerkiness and "coming to Jesus" (sorta), me losing her heart once and for all wasnt just a threat. If she had divorce papers right now, she'd sign them. She says she's thought it all the way through and every consequence be damned. And even with all of that, I am going to sit here and ride this out and continue to reverse the curse and call her a saint.

So, there's the latest. I'm sure you've never quite heard anything like it, but there is nobody like the two of us. We both agree we were made for each other.


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## turnera

Dude, no matter how much you want to take blame for your contribution to her cheating, once she DOES cheat, there is only one thing left to discuss: "I will not share my wife with another man."

And btw, you are NOT in a unique situation. She's a garden variety cheater and you're a garden variety doormat afraid to stand up for yourself. For every 5 men who come here with a cheating wife, at least 4 give the same story as you. All that telling yourself (and us) that you're unique and it will work out because you're unique will get you is divorced.


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## bandit.45

You're heading for a fall. I feel bad for you.


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## Nomorebeans

I understand your feeling a good deal to blame, when you say she told you many times how unhappy she was in the marriage, and you ignored that.

However, her still communicating with this man is very dangerous. It's quite possible she will continue being physical with him, but will just get better at hiding it from you. She will definitely maintain her emotional bond with him, which is a big part of the equation.

You've made your mind up that you're going to nice her back and share her with an OM, and it doesn't seem that anything anyone here tells you will dissuade you. As NoChoice would say, and I don't mean this facetiously, I wish you good fortune.


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## gridcom

Yeah, I think I have decided that I would eat the paint emotionally and financially for the even 10% chance that my kids don't have to go through any of this. I'm not expecting any of you to mince words. That's why I am here


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## lifeistooshort

I'm going to offer another angle here. The tendency here on TAM is to rip a cheater to shreds with little regard for anything else. Especially if that cheater is a woman.

It is true that you can't address anything while the other guy is around, you have a history full of resentment that he doesn't have to compete with. 
And she is making a poor choice here, the man likely won't last. But she may know that and may have decided that either way she's made enough effort for this marriage. 


But affair aside, why should your wife believe you? It's only when she's dumping you that all of a sudden you are that concerned about her, which comes across as self serving. As your wife her happiness wasn't that important to you but now that your life is impacted all of a sudden you care. You're doing this for you, not her.

Let's say you get her out of this, why would she believe this isn't completely self serving on your part? That's something that will need to be overcome.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

btw, I fully agree with you that you need to look at how you messed up the marriage. And I always TELL BSs to look at their stuff. And you SHOULD be working on yourself no matter what.

BUT

Only after they have gotten the OM out of the picture. Because basically what you are saying is you want to show her how incredible you can be and then say 'pick me,' because she will - at the same time - be getting the same dance from the OM.

The ONLY way I have ever seen your plan work is if the OM just picked her for an easy lay and he has no intention of being serious with her and he eventually proves that to her and treats her like dirt, so she comes running back to you, seeing how she has no one else. And if that happens, you will have a broken shell of a shameful woman, not your former wife. So...do you even KNOW about this guy?


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## Thundarr

No matter who's to blame, you won't fix your relationship with the third person in it. I understand you feel a lot to blame for where things have gone and yes you should work on yourself. That being said, she's being a jerk too and she knows it. You can't let her off of the hook for her part else there will be consequences. The direction you're going now is very dangerous. It usually makes the third person seeming more attractive rather than you. I hope you're the exception.


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## gridcom

Lifeistooshort thank you for that. I think there is validity in what you are saying, certainly. I'm not going to argue that I am not doing this for me, as well. Obviously I dont want to live on the other side of town, in a studio apt scrolling through match.com or tinder at 43 years old shacking up with other woman who are damaged and laying next to them at night wishing I didnt blow it with my one true love. No denying that. I've told her that her happiness is what I am after and if that divorce is the end result, then I will swallow it (with a whole heaping of remorse) and do my best to start my life over. Not to repeat myself, but I do feel terrible in my role here and feel like I owe it to the both of us and to our children to do my best to overcome the shortcomings that have been prevalent in my life for quite some time. A lot of it is functional. Stop working at 7pm, close the computer, go be part of the family events for the evening. Create distance between "work mode" (frantic) and "home mode". My job is intense and I also work from home in an office away from the family. The therapist we talked to had me watch The Great Santini, a movie about a guy who cant seperate his work from home to the detriment of his family relationship. Second, seek guidance from outside forces to be a better man. Until this week, I really walked alone. Nobody knew much of anything about the family dynamic here and I think that between family and friends and me asking them to guide me and watch me and check in on me, I think that is something positive.

Third, embrace the community, especially the people at her church where she draws a large influence. What's the worst that can happen? Fourth, and definitely most importantly, seek professional help, both as a couple and as an individual. 

Either way, become a better man. If it saves my family, great. If it still costs me my wife, but I make some changes, still a silver lining. 

Bottom line, though, husbands and wives shouldnt give up on a marriage so easy. The alternative here is to "walk away with my head held high" and let me tell you...if I walk away my head is not going to be held high.


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## jld

Gridcom, you are doing very well. So happy you are strong enough to be honest with yourself and take responsibility for your past actions. It sounds like you are growing already. 

And I am happy to hear you are in counseling. You will have personalized guidance as you work to re-earn your wife's trust. It might be good to show your counselor that link.

Have you spent any more time browsing the ultimatehusband.com website? They have very helpful articles. I wish there were a forum there. There really is a need for humble, mature men to help those who are seeking wisdom.

If I were you, I would continue on the path you are on. Your continued work on yourself, and sincerity and humility before your wife, are eventually going to earn her trust. Just be patient. I believe you will be successful.


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## turnera

So...is your therapist telling you that you are like the father in The Great Santini? In terms of abusive behavior?


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## gridcom

jld, I did show the councilor the link! I emailed it to him right at the end of our first visit.


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## gridcom

Re: The Great Santini, when I first started watching it, I was kind of appalled at the comparison. Once the movie was over, I understood why he had me watch it. To answer your questions, I am definitely not as bad as that pr*ck and more notably I actually do have terrific relationships with both of my kids. I do show them a lot of love, kindness and affection. They are the only people on the planet who I have no issue showing affection to in any setting. My wife says it's because they do whatever I tell them to (clean your room, etc) without argument and I think thats a valid point.

But, no, that guy was a pr*ck to his kids. I am not


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## GusPolinski




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## SecondTime'Round

gridcom said:


> *Either way, become a better man. If it saves my family, great. If it still costs me my wife, but I make some changes, still a silver lining. *
> 
> Bottom line, though, husbands and wives shouldnt give up on a marriage so easy. The alternative here is to "walk away with my head held high" and let me tell you...if I walk away my head is not going to be held high.


I'm glad you feel this way (the part I bolded) because I think that ultimately you're going to need to hang on to that truth. Your wife is not showing remorse and you're in competition with another man. This won't end well until she owns her part in your failed marriage just like you've owned your part. Take her off the pedestal you have her on. She's not perfect.


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## turnera

So I gather nobody in your wife's life has been told she's cheating...


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## gridcom

The people in her life that know:

2 of her HS friends who are both single who encouraged this because of the way she been treated. 
1 more recent friend of hers that she confides in who doesn't approve
Her father, who I told mainly because he doesn't gossip and I needed to tell someone more experienced in my life. Totally doesn't approve and is upset with her
A confidant at her church and I have no idea what's been said

Yes I have spared her the coming out of this because I think it can be fixed without shaming. 

I know.....


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## morituri

You are in panic mode because your wife wants to end the marriage to be with another man, but IF she comes out of the fog and expresses a desire to reconcile, that panic may well turn into anger and bitterness on your part. Don't kid yourself, it happens to a lot of BS in your situation and knowing how to let go of it is essential for not just the well being of the marriage but for yours as well. And no matter what happens to your marriage, it is essential that you start the exorcism of the toxic twins, anger and bitterness, from your heart and soul as soon as possible.

Please consider not making any commitments either for or against continuing with the marriage for at least a couple of months so that you can get a better handle on your emotions which right now are all over the place and ruling your actions. Any long term and life altering decisions on your part must be done with your head and not your heart.


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## lifeistooshort

gridcom, don't think for a minute I condone what she's doing. It's destructive in every way.....unfortunately a spouse that's disconnected from the marriage can be vulnerable to the attention of another. The correct thing to do is resist and deal with the marriage but that doesn't always happen.

If you get to the point where OM is out and both of you are committed to healing, this link might be helpful:

https://coachjackito.com/blog/i-changed-wife-come-back/

It gives a good perspective on why it's so hard to get a woman back when she's disconnected from the marriage. And either way it'll be helpful for you in your personal growth as it is a great glimpse into the mind of a walk away.

I hope you guys can salvage this if it's what you both want.


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## gridcom

Morituri, from the moment I heard about this, there has been not one bit of anger or bitterness in me. Honest truth. I keep thinking about that and I think it speaks volumes for how much I've come to understand how much of a demolition man I've been to my own marriage. Yes, it took this act to make that realization happen. Yes, the realization is real. I cant imagine that I will eventually feel bitterness or anger from this current event. Future actions may be a different story altogether. 

It's funny you say any long term decisions need to come from the head and not the heart. She has been very vocal that she wants to follow her heart here, and not her head. So yeah.

Lifeistooshort, your avatar looks like my wife except she has two eyes


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## Thundarr

gridcom said:


> I keep thinking about that and I think it speaks volumes for how much I've come to understand how much of a demolition man I've been to my own marriage. Yes, it took this act to make that realization happen. Yes, the realization is real. I cant imagine that I will eventually feel bitterness or anger from this current event. Future actions may be a different story altogether.
> 
> It's funny you say any long term decisions need to come from the head and not the heart. She has been very vocal that she wants to follow her heart here, and not her head. So yeah.


So she woke you from your jerk fog by pulling a 180 on you (her affair caused her to not care and pull away which is 180). See how quickly that caused you to come to an epiphany and re-evaluate things? That's because it's human nature grid. She's being the jerk now so how are you going to wake her up. Putting up with things she doesn't think you should put up is almost certainly the wrong answer.


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## SecondTime'Round

gridcom said:


> Morituri, from the moment I heard about this, there has been not one bit of anger or bitterness in me. Honest truth. I keep thinking about that and I think it speaks volumes for how much I've come to understand how much of a demolition man I've been to my own marriage. Yes, it took this act to make that realization happen. Yes, the realization is real.


This is a really great start for YOUR part in the reconciliation process. What's she doing?


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## happy as a clam

Vulcan2013 said:


> Jld's approach is really solid, *once she's out of the affair. MC is worthless when someone is in an active affair. *. You can't compete with the high of a new, illicit relationship. You are basically dealing with an addict, and begging, reasoning, will only work against you.


:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

Save jld's link for if/when you get to the actual stage of reconciliation. Prior to that stage, following that advice will only make you look like a weak, whiny doormat.

The affair HAS to end. And you have to snap her back into reality. Reconciliation is only a pipe-dream as long as the other man is in the picture, or in her thoughts.


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## gridcom

Thundarr, are you suggesting that by cutting the chord entirely, doing "the 180" cutting her off emotionally even if by pretend, agreeing to a divorce, telling the world about her affair and shaming her, ripping my kids (especially my older one) apart, and actually living the life of a sad man on the other side of town has better odds of a reconciliation than the approach I am currently taking? I mean, 4,300+ posts you are certainly more experienced in these dilemmas than me, but that seems completely backwards.

The "180" seems like a good move for a person who has been cheated on by a person who has no reason to cheat, a person who is truly a sc*mbag. And in that case, who would want to be with a person like that anyway. 

My wife had reason to cheat. I should change the name of this thread to "My wife cheated and I love her more for it"


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## turnera

It's basic psychology. We want what we can't have. You can't have her now so you WOKE UP. Now she knows she can have you. AND him. Tell me why she'll now care.

Have you done any reading about women in affairs? They don't cheat for the same reason as men, who usually cheat because they want more sex (sometimes more affection). Women usually don't cheat until they have stopped loving their husband and then another man starts paying attention to them. IOW, they cheat for love. If she has two men professing love, she's unlikely to go BACK to the one who has continuously hurt her. At least not unless the NEW 'love' hurts her equally.

I mean, you have a shot, if you can hold out for a year or two til the OM leaves. But I'll warn you now, once you 'get' her back, you're likely to go into a mindset of 'screw her!' Once you are out of the fear stage, which is what's keeping you from being mad at her, the anger will show up. Just be prepared.`


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## morituri

gridcom said:


> Morituri, from the moment I heard about this, there has been not one bit of anger or bitterness in me. Honest truth. I keep thinking about that and I think it speaks volumes for how much I've come to understand how much of a demolition man I've been to my own marriage. Yes, it took this act to make that realization happen. Yes, the realization is real. I cant imagine that I will eventually feel bitterness or anger from this current event. Future actions may be a different story altogether.


I'd like for you to take a read to *Just Let Them Go*. And not because I want to sway you in divorcing your wife but to make you think in letting your wife see that you are willing to let her go so that she can be much happier. Why? Because any attempt on your part to tell her not to divorce you or that you'll change will fall on deaf ears and the resentment she has been carrying for years will become even stronger. You need to let the OM (other man) take care of her and all of her needs. Chances are good that once he and your wife start having to deal with everyday reality, that any fantasy dream world will come crashing down on top of her. IF and that happens, the fog will clear from your wife's mind and she may see that she has made a grave error. It is at this point that she may be open to marital reconciliation, if you still want it. 



> It's funny you say any long term decisions need to come from the head and not the heart. She has been very vocal that she wants to follow her heart here, and not her head. So yeah.


And when people make decisions based solely on their heart, later on they usually end up regretting it because these choices tend to come back to bite them in the @$$. Just like your emotional outbursts and disrespectful behavior towards your wife have now come to bite you big time (the same is likely to happen to your wife). So try to chill and concentrate on becoming a better you not because you want your wife back but because you want it for yourself.


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## gridcom

SecondTime'Round said:


> This is a really great start for YOUR part in the reconciliation process. What's she doing?


I dont know. Sorting her feelings. Trying to make sense of all of this. Hopefully hoping that I can come out of the "jerk fog" for good.


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## Vulcan2013

I suggested some actions to deal with the A short of divorce or separation. Exposure is critical. You taking the blame is relieving her of any guilt or shame. And, it is communicating that you have no value. She will see him, be woo'd and she will screw him again (and again). 

Since you're atheist/agnostic you may not be aware, but her God is against infidelity. Expose to her pastor with a request for pastoral counseling. This isn't shaming. This drags it out in the light and ruins the fun. It also is you acting like a MAN and fighting for the marriage. You hurt yourself and your family keeping secrets. 

I don't think you should 180 necessarily, but you need to be firm. Impose consequences. 

I think you are doing good with owning your sh!t, but you go to far saying you deserved it.


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## lifeistooshort

gridcom said:


> Morituri, from the moment I heard about this, there has been not one bit of anger or bitterness in me. Honest truth. I keep thinking about that and I think it speaks volumes for how much I've come to understand how much of a demolition man I've been to my own marriage. Yes, it took this act to make that realization happen. Yes, the realization is real. I cant imagine that I will eventually feel bitterness or anger from this current event. Future actions may be a different story altogether.
> 
> It's funny you say any long term decisions need to come from the head and not the heart. She has been very vocal that she wants to follow her heart here, and not her head. So yeah.
> 
> Lifeistooshort, your avatar looks like my wife except she has two eyes



Ha ha, I love Leela, and I love Futurama! One of the best cartoons ever :smile2:

I do think the benefit of the 180 that everyone is suggesting is that it does't allow her to keep you as a backup. Ultimately she is either in or out, not in while she decides if OM has potential. That's not good for anyone.

And it does help you cope and detach of that's where this is going. Begging, pleading, and laying in wait never made anyone more attractive. It does not equal you being an ass.

If she's out that's her prerogative but she needs to make that decision now and live with the consequences. She may or may not decide it's worth it.


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## SecondTime'Round

gridcom said:


> I dont know. Sorting her feelings. Trying to make sense of all of this. Hopefully hoping that I can come out of the "jerk fog" for good.


How do you think she's feeling about your willingness to share her with another man?


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## turnera

gridcom said:


> Thundarr, are you suggesting that by cutting the chord entirely, doing "the 180" cutting her off emotionally even if by pretend, agreeing to a divorce, telling the world about her affair and shaming her, ripping my kids (especially my older one) apart, and actually living the life of sad man on the other side of town has better odds of a reconciliation than the approach I am currently taking? I mean, 4,300+ posts you are certainly more experienced in these dilemmas than me, but that seems completely backwards.
> 
> The "180" seems like a good move for a person who has been cheated on by a person who has no reason to cheat, a person who as truly a sc*mbag. And in that case, who would want to be with a person like that anyway.
> 
> My wife had reason to cheat. I should change the name of this thread to "My wife cheated and I love her more for it"


You don't love her 'more' for it. You just FEAR HER MORE for it. Fear she will leave you. So you are scrambling to keep her from dumping you. It's normal. 

And the way you describe what we suggest is what EVERY betrayed husband says when he comes here. No way, I can't SHAME her, I can't LABEL her, 'that will only push her away.' If I had a dollar for every man who said 'it will only push her into his arms' here, I'd be rich. And we KNOW it sounds counterintuitive - get mad and she'll just leave faster. 

But here's the psychology behind cheating women. They've already given up on you. And when they see you begging them to stay, you DISGUST them. Psychologically speaking, women need strong men. I don't mean 'mean' men, but strong men. Who won't beg. Yes, she wants you to acknowledge what you did. She doesn't want you to kiss her ass to keep her. A strong man will say 'I'm so sorry for hurting you; I'm not even blaming you for cheating. But that said, cheating is one thing I can't accept. I can't SHARE my wife with another man. So if you choose him, I'll understand. But I won't stay here with you and watch you going out with him, talking to him, and being emotionally connected to him. It has to be me or him.'

And as for exposing the affair to her important people, for the 900th time...IT IS NOT SHAMING. It is approaching them with full disclosure, telling them that you've been a sh*tty husband and you're not surprised she did this, given what you did to her, but you still love her and want to stay together; you're asking them to talk to her and convince her to give up the OM who is her 'drug' and yes, she's a drug addict; that's how affairs work - it becomes a craving. All you're asking is for one more chance for the marriage, WITHOUT the OM in the picture, so you two can attend therapy, figure out what went wrong, figure out if you two can keep the family together, for at least a few months without OM around. And, in the end, if she STILL can't find love for you again, you'll willingly walk away and wish her well; you're just asking them to talk to her and ask her to give the marriage and family one more chance without OM in the picture.

See? It is NOT shaming. It is exposing the truth so that she can try to see through the addiction, the affair fog, and look at her situation logically, without the PEA chemicals of the affair fog. And it is showing YOUR strength and humility in admitting your part in the problem and respectfully asking their help and then respectfully offering to walk away if she still won't stay with you.


----------



## gridcom

SecondTime'Round said:


> How do you think she's feeling about your willingness to share her with another man?


I'm not willing to share her with another man. It happened, it's happening, we are working through it, I'm making real moves, real impactful moves, but it needs to end for good I agree.


----------



## SecondTime'Round

gridcom said:


> I'm not willing to share her with another man. It happened, it's happening, we are working through it, I'm making real moves, real impactful moves, but it needs to end for good I agree.


Yes, we see that you're making real moves, real impactful moves. That's GREAT!

But, she isn't!


----------



## gridcom

turnera said:


> But here's the psychology behind cheating women. They've already given up on you. And when they see you begging them to stay, you DISGUST them. Psychologically speaking, women need strong men. I don't mean 'mean' men, but strong men. Who won't beg. Yes, she wants you to acknowledge what you did. She doesn't want you to kiss her ass to keep her. A strong man will say 'I'm so sorry for hurting you; I'm not even blaming you for cheating. But that said, cheating is one thing I can't accept. I can't SHARE my wife with another man. So if you choose him, I'll understand. But I won't stay here with you and watch you going out with him, talking to him, and being emotionally connected to him. It has to be me or him.'
> 
> And as for exposing the affair to her important people, for the 900th time...IT IS NOT SHAMING. It is approaching them with full disclosure, telling them that you've been a sh*tty husband and you're not surprised she did this, given what you did to her, but you still love her and want to stay together; you're asking them to talk to her and convince her to give up the OM who is her 'drug' and yes, she's a drug addict; that's how affairs work - it becomes a craving. All you're asking is for one more chance for the marriage, WITHOUT the OM in the picture, so you two can attend therapy, figure out what went wrong, figure out if you two can keep the family together, for at least a few months without OM around. And, in the end, if she STILL can't find love for you again, you'll willingly walk away and wish her well; you're just asking them to talk to her and ask her to give the marriage and family one more chance without OM in the picture.
> 
> See? It is NOT shaming. It is exposing the truth so that she can try to see through the addiction, the affair fog, and look at her situation logically, without the PEA chemicals of the affair fog. And it is showing YOUR strength and humility in admitting your part in the problem and respectfully asking their help and then respectfully offering to walk away if she still won't stay with you.


Good stuff.


----------



## NoChoice

OP,
It is admirable that you see and want to rectify the character flaws that you now acknowledge. However, you must understand that your wife has done something extraordinary. The heart has no neurons, no synaptic connections, no way to reason. Without reason there can only be chaos. Following her heart may lead down a very unhappy path in the end. You have indicated that your wife is your soul mate and a religious person. Does her religion allow for adultery? Does her vow to remain faithful allow caveats? In displaying this behavior she has compromised her own integrity, values and honor. 

You can convince yourself that you are the cause of her infidelity but are you the cause of her lack of character? You said that her A was the wake up call you needed and the only thing that could have awaken you to acknowledge what a cad you have been. This is simply not true. There are other avenues of action that do not compromise ones integrity but she was willing to forgo those in favor of deceit, betrayal and dishonor. She could have served you with divorce papers and informed you that you two were done but she did not. She followed her heart and took the route that openly displays her lack of character, honor and values.

So you forgive her and even praise her for what she did but what of her God, are her actions as praiseworthy in his eyes. I seem to remember some basic principles that he handed down some years back that were referred to as commandments. How many of them has she broken on this sojourn to follow her heart? Are you responsible for that too? What I am trying to make you see is that you may well have been a cad, a workaholic, to the point of often neglecting your family but you do not possess the ability to alter ones core beliefs and values. You are assigning yourself too much influence, you haven't the power.

There are always other options and for your wife to choose this path is wrong on many levels and in no way your fault. If you want to claim worst husband of the century then so be it but this A is all your wife's doing and fully on her. She should be genuinely contrite and deeply remorseful but instead she is defiant and intent on pursuing this extramarital activity in spite of her vows to the contrary and her beliefs in God. This is deeply troubling as is your attitude towards her behavior. If someone sees nothing wrong with compromising their beliefs, their integrity and their honor then what do they perceive as wrong?

She needs to break off all extramarital contact with this OM and accept accountability for the heinous acts she has committed. She needs to beg forgiveness from you and from her God. If she does, then there is a chance for R. If she does not want that then she should cease all contact with OM, file for D and then pursue whatever her heart wants going forward. There is a right way and a wrong way, so far she has chosen the wrong way and you have condoned it. I find this fascinating.

You already know what you need to do to improve yourself and you should continue to pursue it with earnest but do not allow her A to continue. You had to stop, reevaluate and correct and so must she. Good fortune to you and your family.


----------



## Thundarr

gridcom said:


> Thundarr, are you suggesting that by cutting the chord entirely, doing "the 180" cutting her off emotionally even if by pretend, agreeing to a divorce, telling the world about her affair and shaming her, ripping my kids (especially my older one) apart, and actually living the life of a sad man on the other side of town has better odds of a reconciliation than the approach I am currently taking? I mean, 4,300+ posts you are certainly more experienced in these dilemmas than me, but that seems completely backwards.


No I'm not suggesting that gridcom. You have to pick out useful advice as it pertains to your situation. Let's face it, you're the one living this and you're the one invested in the outcome. I'm guessing you understand that anonymous advice has real value because it's not entangled with the emotion and drama of the real situation and that's why you're here.

From the outside looking in it feels like you want to believe that you caused this 100%. There's motive to this because it gives you a way to fix it. If you caused it then you can change and viola it's all fixed. Maybe I'm reading that wrong.

So no I don't think you should go 100% full on cold 180. But there's at least one boundary you have to step up to IMO and that's "No contact". So you should do your best to understand your part and fix that within yourself and at the same time understand what you should not be willing to put up with now. For example, she wants to keep a relationship with this guy. That is a reconciliation no no, it's a principled living no no, it's a personal boundary no no. In other words IMO it's a showstopper even though you don't know it yet.


----------



## manfromlamancha

OK Gridcom, it seems some brutal straight talk is needed here!

If you are making changes in general to the way you behave that you think will make you a better man, then great and bravo!

However ...

We all have faults and to continue to berate yourself is non productive. 

Nothing, and I mean nothing, can justify what she is doing now and probably has been doing for a year unknown to you ... and that is LYING and CHEATING and being DISRESPECTFUL! 

If she was unhappy with you, she could have divorced you - why did she wait until she test drove this POSOM (who knows she is married and is a predator) before dumping you.

To put it in simple words - she is FVCKING another man! While in a covenant (vows) with you to be faithful through good and bad! There is nothing good, honourable or justified about this. She has been coming home to you, and maybe you have had sloppy seconds. Do you see how disrespectful and wrong this is ?

You are trying to romanticise this far too much! She is not the angel you have placed on a pedestal. The reason she did this is she is responding to the desires of a part of her anatomy that is NOT her heart! (Go with her heart indeed!).

And what makes it even more disrespectful is she does this while playing the part of respectable and caring church goer!

You need to shatter the illusion you have of her. Now! Snap out of it. Knock her off that pedestal you have put her on. You sound almost like you are on drugs or something or have a severe lack of testosterone!

She carefully planned this. Even you said "she made her play and he responded" - is this not telling of her character!

Now it sounds to me like you need to explode this affair in her face and that of her friends, family and congregation. While she is fvcking this POSOM, any money or time spent on MC is a waste.

She needs to own the fact that she is a lying cheat and be truly remorseful in actions (not just words) for you to have any chance of R. Also you need to be prepared to D and dump her a$$ if she doesn't comply.

You also say that you are doing this for your kids - it is far healthier for kids to see two divorced parents that are not cheating on each other, not resentful of each other, and truly loving of their partners rather than live in a house where the relationship is a lie. And that is exactly what it would be if you allowed this to be rug-swept and she stayed.

Stop justifying her lying and cheating and blaming yourself for it.

Problems in the marriage may be 50% down to you but her cheating is 100% on her and her alone!

Wake up for God's sake and defend your self and your kids in terms of finances, custody and your well being!


----------



## gridcom

You all have been my friends tonight. My kids are asleep and my wife is at work. All I want to do is the best I can, and being an admitted OCD person, my inclinations are to talk it out until it's figured out. I feel like I am sitting at a roundtable with a roomful of faceless people with a wide spectrum of advice and it's healing to me, no matter if I agree or dont agree or simply dont want to agree. 

Thanks for being my buddies tonight


----------



## manfromlamancha

You mean your kids are asleep while your wife is with her paramour/boyfriend! Sheesh!


----------



## Thundarr

gridcom said:


> My wife had reason to cheat. I should change the name of this thread to "My wife cheated and I love her more for it"


I missed this. She may have had reason to separate or leave you. She did not have reason to cheat.


----------



## GusPolinski

gridcom said:


> Thundarr, are you suggesting that by cutting the chord entirely, doing "the 180" cutting her off emotionally even if by pretend, agreeing to a divorce, telling the world about her affair and shaming her, ripping my kids (especially my older one) apart, and actually living the life of a sad man on the other side of town has better odds of a reconciliation than the approach I am currently taking? I mean, 4,300+ posts you are certainly more experienced in these dilemmas than me, but that seems completely backwards.
> 
> The "180" seems like a good move for a person who has been cheated on by a person who has no reason to cheat, a person who is truly a sc*mbag. And in that case, who would want to be with a person like that anyway.
> 
> My wife had reason to cheat. I should change the name of this thread to "My wife cheated and I love her more for it"


Your thinking is so amazingly flawed that I can scarcely bear to read through it all, much less take the time to comment on all of it.

For now I'll say only this... for as long as your wife refuses to go NC w/ OM, your wife is STILL cheating.


----------



## gridcom

GusPolinski said:


> For now I'll say only this... for as long as your wife refuses to go NC w/ OM, your wife is STILL cheating.


I agree


----------



## SecondTime'Round

thundarr said:


> i missed this. She may have had reason to separate or leave you. She did not have reason to cheat.


yes! This!!!

Stop excusing the infidelity!!!


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## GusPolinski

gridcom said:


> You all have been my friends tonight. My kids are asleep and my wife is at work. All I want to do is the best I can, and being an admitted OCD person, my inclinations are to talk it out until it's figured out. I feel like I am sitting at a roundtable with a roomful of faceless people with a wide spectrum of advice and it's healing to me, no matter if I agree or dont agree or simply dont want to agree.
> 
> Thanks for being my buddies tonight





manfromlamancha said:


> You mean your kids are asleep while your wife is with her paramour/boyfriend! Sheesh!


----------



## gridcom

Here is the other issue too. My wife REALLY loves her job. I'd go as far as to say it's the most fulfilling job she has ever had. I cannot see her leaving that job under any cirumstances, even to the point that we fell back in love and it made all the sense in the world. I can see her being at her current job for 25 more years easy. Another huge mess.


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## SecondTime'Round

gridcom said:


> Here is the other issue too. My wife REALLY loves her job. I'd go as far as to say it's the most fulfilling job she has ever had. I cannot see her leaving that job under any cirumstances, even to the point that we fell back in love and it made all the sense in the world. I can see her being at her current job for 25 more years easy. Another huge mess.


Which does she love more?:

A. You
B. Her job


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## GusPolinski

SecondTime'Round said:


> Which does she love more?:
> 
> A. You
> B. Her job


I'd append item A thusly...

A. You, your home, your marriage, your family, and your children's security


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## turnera

What's she gonna do when you divorce her and she has to have someone else watch her kids while she's on shift work, and PAY to have them watched? Now that she no longer has your income to support the family aside from some child support?

She's not thinking logically. You need to help her SEE what life with numnutz will be like. And the longer you kiss her ass and beg her to forgive you and offer to do anything and everything she wants, SHE HAS NO REASON TO SEE what that life will be like.

She needs to HEAR from you that you will not sit by and let her 'have a friendship' with her 'former' lover, not and stay married to you. She needs to hear that you will let her go and try out her fantasy with him, but you won't stick around and wait for it to fall apart. Nor will you PAY HER to go do it.


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## ConanHub

GusPolinski said:


>


Exactly.

The way your acting makes you appear like this to your wife. Something to wipe dog crap on when she comes home after being pumped full of the other man.

You are toilet paper to her. Useful, for one thing.

I am not excusing your poor marriage performance but that really has nothing to do with her fvcking another man right in your face.

How the hell does this work? She goes out to get fvcked while you babysit for her?

Have you even broached the subject of protection?

Whatever dude. You are right about one thing. Someone with over 4000 posts on this site might actually know a lot more than you.

You are taking the wrong damn approach. You need to wake her up before you can work on your marriage.

Ignore this at your own peril. Right now you are a willing cuckold and your wife has more respect for herpes than you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thundarr

gridcom said:


> Here is the other issue too. My wife REALLY loves her job. I'd go as far as to say it's the most fulfilling job she has ever had. I cannot see her leaving that job under any cirumstances, even to the point that we fell back in love and it made all the sense in the world. I can see her being at her current job for 25 more years easy. Another huge mess.


Yes it's a mess but she'll have to choose or you'll have to accept being a low priority. I think you said something to the affect of fixing yourself because if it's too late to fix the marriage then at least there's a silver lining. Hold on to that thought because it makes sense.


----------



## tech-novelist

Yours is only about the 150th "unique" story I've read here, because I'm relatively new. They all sound the same after awhile, because cheaters have a lot in common.

One of the things they have in common is that there is no way you are going to get her back, other than for her to use you as an ATM and baby-sitter, if you apologize to her *while she is cheating on you*!

Yes, I know you have made mistakes, but that doesn't excuse her behavior. You have to be strong. Listen to the old hands here, who have seen it all.


----------



## MrBeaman

gridcom...you will not succeed in getting your wife back using the nice guy routine. I have been there, your situation is not unique. I have two young kids. Only once i fully exposed the affair and made her choose between me and the other man did the affair end. She chose the other man (a co-worker as well) and he dumped her four days later to go back to his wife. Within a couple of weeks her fog began to lift. We are currently separated but are on good terms. She just quit her job because it was so unbearable to go to a place that reminds her of breaking up her family. You say that she will never quit her job...guess what, at some point in time, she will have to quit that place. Once her affair is exposed (and it will be, you can't hide it forever), life at work will no longer be sunshine and lollipops.

I have been reading on here for awhile and I can tell you I haven't read one success story using the nice guy routine. It won't work.

The people on here are not lying to you. If you continue down this path you are lowering your stock value and the other douche's stock is rising quickly. 

EXPOSE THE AFFAIR!!!!!

What's the worst she will do...she has already done that. Take a stand and be a man.


----------



## beyondrepair

Earlier in the thread someone posted a link to the effect that timing is everything. 

The time for ACTION is now. The time to expose and the time for consequences is now.

Not out of revenge or punishment, but to stand up and show that you yourself deserve respect and won't be taken for granted.

What would you tell someone else in your situation?

The problem is, when we are going through something like this, that we are so clouded by our emotions, the fear of the future and being alone, that many of us, like myself, rationalize ourselves into doormating behavior, that is not only counterproductive but we ourselves will loathe later.

The moment you disconnect yourself from the end result is the moment you will make rational decisions and paradoxically will have the greatest chance of "success".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

OP, I know it feels like you're getting beat up on. I hope you'll continue to post. And if you don't want to do things the way we are all telling you to do, that's your choice. There's a slim chance that she may wake up and dump the guy and change jobs and recommit to you. Stranger things have happened. Understand, though, that women usually hold out hope for their love only so long, and then it's just GONE. So even if she gives him up, she may never love you again. Anyway, continue to post your status and we'll provide the best advice we can give under the circumstances.


----------



## gridcom

You are all bumming me out but thank you and stay tuned


----------



## ConanHub

Brother. Our words shouldn't be your storm cloud but your wife's actions.

There is always hope. Others have recovered their marriages from worse.

The simple truth is that the affair must be ruthlessly destroyed for your marriage to even have a fighting chance.

The odds of you"nicing" your wife out of her affair are almost non existent.

Once the affair is atomized you can "nice" your marriage up very well.

Best wishes man.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## gridcom

Tonight was not a good night. After all of your advice tonight, I once again ignored it all and tried to reason with her that giving this marriage every last chance to work was the only proper solution. She's not having it and during the conversation you could clearly tell she was coming from a place of great anger and vindictiveness. She admitted that she was trying to hurt me by being so open about the affair, hoping to "send me over the edge" and act promptly in anger. 

Again, I know you all have really heard enough about this, but I am really trying to do the right thing for my children. To me, it's them first. It really is. This move will devistate them both emotionally and functionally. They will grow up poor kids in a rich town. We are already pretty much on the low end of finances in a financially viable community and cannot afford many things that our childrens peers have, and this is only going to make it way worse. 

Tonight it was clear to me that my wife is in a real dark place, not just with me but in her life. I am the cause of this. I let her down. I didnt give this woman the love she deserved, All true. But, she is coming from a real dark place, a vengeful place, an unhealthy place, and a place that is ultimately going to harm my children. I CANNOT SIT BACK AND WATCH THIS HAPPEN AND DO NOTHING. It sucks that I have to cause more chaos in a chaotic situation. That does not generate love and kindness and caring, three things that I lack that I am trying to find in my life. I am absolutely gutted that my plan will not work; trying to nice her back into at least giving the marriage another chance.


----------



## bandit.45

Grid, walk your own path. If you think the way you are doing it is the right way, then do it.


The universe will equalize all things in the end.


----------



## turnera

You didn't cause her to BREAK HER VOW and cheat. She could EASILY have divorced you first. But she let her ADDICTION fuel her actions. THAT weakness is on her.

Please try to remember that a cheater is HIGH on her PEA chemicals and cannot be reasoned with. That's why the 'intervention' of exposing to her important people is usually the ONLY way a cheater will stop - that or immediate movement to starting a divorce, to wake them up. You've done neither, so there she sits in her PEA-addled brain, just...feeling. 

Anatomy of an Affair - The Chemistry of Love - Marriage AdvocatesMarriage Advocates


----------



## GusPolinski

BTW, is OM married? Apologies if you've already mentioned that.

Either way, don't take your wife's word for it. Find out who he is, where he lives, whether or not he's married, etc.

And, if he is married, expose the affair to his wife.


----------



## lifeistooshort

GusPolinski said:


> BTW, is OM married? Apologies if you've already mentioned that.
> 
> Either way, don't take your wife's word for it. Find out who he is, where he lives, whether or not he's married, etc.
> 
> And, if he is married, expose the affair to his wife.


I think he said no.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## toonaive

bandit.45 said:


> Give her what she wants. Let her go. Don't be mean, don't beg, don't follow her around like a lost pup. Let her go.
> 
> Use her fog to get the best divorce settlement from her that you can. Be amicable...see a lawyer and draw up the papers, expose her affair to family and friends, then do the 180.
> 
> 
> *Many BS's are urged to go No Contact with their WS after ALL ELSE has failed.
> 
> 
> This 180 list may help.
> --------------------------
> 
> 
> For those that are interested in Michelle Weiner Davis's divorce busting 180 degree list, here it is:
> 
> 1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore.
> 2. No frequent phone calls.
> 3. Do not point out good points in marriage.
> 4. Do not follow him/her around the house.
> 5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
> 6. Do not ask for help from family members.
> 7. Do not ask for reassurances.
> 8. Do not buy gifts.
> 9. Do not schedule dates together.
> 10. Do not spy on spouse.
> 11. Do not say "I Love You".
> 12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
> 13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
> 14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
> 15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words.
> 16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING.
> 17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
> 18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what she will be missing
> 19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show him/her someone he/she would want to be around.
> 20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).
> 21. Never lose your cool.
> 22. Don't be overly enthusiastic.
> 23. Do not argue about how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger).
> 24. Be patient
> 25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you.
> 26. Learn to back off, shut up and possibly walk away.
> 27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil).
> 28. Be strong and confident.
> 29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.
> 30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy.
> 31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.
> 32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because they are hurting and scared.
> 33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
> 34. Do not backslide from your hard-earned changes.*


This!!


----------



## DayOne

> Originally Posted by bandit.45 View Post
> Give her what she wants. Let her go. Don't be mean, don't beg, don't follow her around like a lost pup. Let her go.
> 
> Use her fog to get the best divorce settlement from her that you can. Be amicable...see a lawyer and draw up the papers, expose her affair to family and friends, then do the 180.
> 
> 
> Many BS's are urged to go No Contact with their WS after ALL ELSE has failed.
> 
> 
> This 180 list may help.
> --------------------------
> 
> 
> For those that are interested in Michelle Weiner Davis's divorce busting 180 degree list, here it is:
> 
> 1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore.
> 2. No frequent phone calls.
> 3. Do not point out good points in marriage.
> 4. Do not follow him/her around the house.
> 5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
> 6. Do not ask for help from family members.
> 7. Do not ask for reassurances.
> 8. Do not buy gifts.
> 9. Do not schedule dates together.
> 10. Do not spy on spouse.
> 11. Do not say "I Love You".
> 12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
> 13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
> 14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
> 15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words.
> 16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING.
> 17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
> 18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what she will be missing
> 19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show him/her someone he/she would want to be around.
> 20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).
> 21. Never lose your cool.
> 22. Don't be overly enthusiastic.
> 23. Do not argue about how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger).
> 24. Be patient
> 25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you.
> 26. Learn to back off, shut up and possibly walk away.
> 27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil).
> 28. Be strong and confident.
> 29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.
> 30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy.
> 31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.
> 32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because they are hurting and scared.
> 33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
> 34. Do not backslide from your hard-earned changes.


QFT (Quoted For Truth).

Reading through this, yeah OP you have been a a$$, and you're right to feel the guilt of YOUR SIDE of this failed marriage.

HOWEVER, you're taking on the guilt of her CHOOSING, OF HER OWN VOLITION, to jump on another guys d!ck. That it's YOUR fault she's having sex with another man.

Fail. 

It's not your fault. That's 100% ON HER. 

And the whole going to church, being what you THINK she wants, trying to nice her back?

Fail.

A) Grow a pair, B) File on her cheating a$$, C) go as much of the 180 as having kids permits. 

Essentially move on. Work on YOUR sh*t. Fix yourself. Don't try and fix her, or your marriage (it's in the crapper already, IMO). 

And blow the affair up. Out her to family, friends, the church, her work. She's living in a fog. Shove her cheating a$$ out into the cold light of reality. See how long the AP sticks around for then!


----------



## DayOne

Or you can continue to be her b*tch. And

A) watch her lose any remaining respect for you

B) get used to a slightly unusual taste on the few occasions she allows you to go down on her. Who knows, you might get used to the flavour. Eventually...


----------



## Chaparral

Find out who the other man is. Go to their workplace and talk to her boss if you have to. Tell the boss you will sue their company.

Talk to a lawyer.

Talk t her priest/pastor.

Talk to her parents, siblings and close friends.

Exposure kills affairs.

Talk to his parents and boss.

Fu*k this job, look what its done to your family.

Your wife is doing this to your kids. She could have demanded counseling. She could have told you that she was separating from you until you started meeting her needs. She could have talked to her priest/pastor.

If he's married that's a big plus since he will through your wife under the bus to keep from breaking up his family. Find out now who he is. Check phone records and see who she is texting/calling.

The only bright spot I see in your course of action is that your plan will lead to divorce and you will be rid of a faithless cheating wife.


----------



## bandit.45

Let me ask you. Do you want to stay living with her while she goes out and sleeps with this other man as a form of penance? Do you think that allowing her to hurt you will make up for all the ignoring of her that you did? 

Did you ever physically or mentally abuse her or did you just neglect her? Seems like her punishment of you is awful harsh. Is that what you want? To be punished? Are you going to basically allow her to call the shots and steer whatever reconciliation may happen?


----------



## weightlifter

Sigh.
Dude you are SO FAR from unique. 80% of women say they are allowed to cheat because hubby is a jerk. Several years ago, my wife said and did sh!t well beyond what I ever wrote here. I have touched, kissed, groped, etc exactly ZERO women. If you suck so bad as a husband she should have divorced FIRST. Cool thing about being divorced; you get to fvck a football and hockey team at the same time if that is your wish.

In a friendly way I wanna shake you! STOP IT. 
Get MAD!
Find your inner Klingon.

Yea. I know. Be nice. Be constructive. Living well is the best revenge. sigh.
Living well after laying waste to the guy putting his load between your wife's legs is even sweeter.
Get angry dammit!

[TAM peeps] Who was it that nuked the OM in an entirely legal way? Damn I forget... It was beautiful. No not Juicer. LEGAL.
Dont do squat against your ?stbx?ww. The OM is a predator. Bet if you could see their communication you would see LOTS of "He does not deserve you" and compliments. Player 101. Its a script.

Sorry. You are so far from unique.

BTW. If you D. DO OWN YOUR SH!T! Fix yourself, Learn and treat wife 2.0 better.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

gridcom said:


> Tonight it was clear to me that my wife is in a real dark place, not just with me but in her life. I am the cause of this. I let her down. I didnt give this woman the love she deserved, All true. But, she is coming from a real dark place, a vengeful place, an unhealthy place, and a place that is ultimately going to harm my children.


*Never* own another person's emotional response. You aren't responsible for it. Doing so will drive you nuts.

Your marriage cannot be saved while the affair persists. So step #1, which you have yet to accomplish is:

*End the affair!*

The best tool for killing an affair is exposure. You tell her friends, her family, church members, everyone that matters. Affairs thrive in darkness, and fizzle when they are exposed.

Until step #1 happens, all the marriage counselling in the world is a colossal waste of $. And meanwhile, your cheater wife gets to watch you dance the "pick me!" dance. Ugh

The Humiliating Dance of ?Pick Me?! - ChumpLady.com

Once the affair is ended, all contact with the OM has stopped, and your cheater-wife shows *genuine *remorse, the marriage rebuilding can begin.

Until the affair is ended, continue to work on you. Read relationship books, get into the best physical shape of your life, and focus on you and your kids. Like Weightlifter said, it might become useful for life partner #2.

BTW, the stats for resurrecting a marriage after the wife has cheated are pretty grim. So hope for (what you think) is the best, but in the back of your mind prepare for the worst.

Most of us have been where you are. You are not unique. In fact, once you spend some time here you will see how similar the stories are.


----------



## Thor

gridcom said:


> So, there's the latest. I'm sure you've never quite heard anything like it, but there is nobody like the two of us. We both agree we were made for each other.


Oh yes, we've heard this many times here. It never works out the way the BS thinks it will. You're being played! Think of her as a drug addict. Her drug is brain chemicals making her high every time she gets a hit. The hit is when she sees him, talks to him, texts him, touches him, or even thinks of him.

Addicts do and say anything to keep getting their high.

I promise you she is not committed to you or the marriage, at least not the way you are thinking of marriage. Guaranteed.

Sorry, but you're in a fog yourself.


----------



## Thor

You should read the e-book "Women's Infidelity". See if you can find a cheap version somewhere, because the author wants a very hefty price from her website. The book will explain your wife's mindset so that you can better understand how she got to this point. It is not what you think.


----------



## SecondTime'Round

gridcom said:


> Tonight was not a good night. After all of your advice tonight, I once again ignored it all and tried to reason with her that giving this marriage every last chance to work was the only proper solution. She's not having it and during the conversation you could clearly tell she was coming from a place of great anger and vindictiveness. She admitted that she was trying to hurt me by being so open about the affair, hoping to "send me over the edge" and act promptly in anger.
> 
> Again, I know you all have really heard enough about this, but I am really trying to do the right thing for my children. To me, it's them first. It really is. This move will devistate them both emotionally and functionally. They will grow up poor kids in a rich town. We are already pretty much on the low end of finances in a financially viable community and cannot afford many things that our childrens peers have, and this is only going to make it way worse.
> 
> Tonight it was clear to me that my wife is in a real dark place, not just with me but in her life. I am the cause of this. I let her down. I didnt give this woman the love she deserved, All true. But, she is coming from a real dark place, a vengeful place, an unhealthy place, and a place that is ultimately going to harm my children. I CANNOT SIT BACK AND WATCH THIS HAPPEN AND DO NOTHING. It sucks that I have to cause more chaos in a chaotic situation. That does not generate love and kindness and caring, three things that I lack that I am trying to find in my life. I am absolutely gutted that my plan will not work; trying to nice her back into at least giving the marriage another chance.
> 
> *Tomorrow it's on.*


*What *exactly is on?

You seem to think your situation is soooo unique. We can't possibly understand what you fear will happen to the kids if you divorce. We can't comprehend the guilt you have you'd have for making this their life. We have no idea about the financial ramifications of divorce and maintaining two households. 

You're dead wrong. So many of us have been in your exact shoes.


----------



## turnera

> We both agree we were made for each other.


I missed that part. 

If you BOTH agree you were made for each other, what's she doing with HIM?


----------



## GusPolinski

lifeistooshort said:


> I think he said no.


Fair enough. Still, I keep coming back to this...



GusPolinski said:


> BTW, is OM married? Apologies if you've already mentioned that.
> 
> *Either way, don't take your wife's word for it. Find out who he is, where he lives, whether or not he's married, etc.*
> 
> And, if he is married, expose the affair to his wife.


----------



## anchorwatch

Grid, when you really break it down, there are only three real options here.

1) She can go NC with the OM and put in a good effort to see if the M can be saved.
2) She can leave the marriage and explore her relationship with the OM.
3) She can have the OM and you indefinitely. 

You control option 3. Don't take too long in counseling to make a decision about letting her go. 

Continue to work on yourself vigorously. That's never a bad choice. It's always about you in the end with whatever happens in life. 

Best wishes to you and your family.


----------



## DayOne

Still think he need's to punt her cheating a$$ to the curb, with papers attached. Then see if the fog lifts...


----------



## DayOne

But, hey, he's gonna do whatever he's gonna do. 


Just hope he doesn't become another TAM burn victim.


----------



## happy as a clam

Grid is not looking for advice.

He is just looking for a place to "vent."

Nothing wrong with that. Vent away. Let it all out. But be clear what your intentions are so people don't waste ENDLESS hours (typing advice online) trying to help you fix this mess.

Grid, when this debacle is all over, come back and we'll tell you what you REALLY need to do....... again.

Since you aren't listening at all.

Best of luck to you and your straying wife.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

It's only been 3 days since his opening post. Give the fellow some time.


----------



## gridcom

No updates from me today. Both myself and my wife have talked to a bunch of people today, She went to our marriage councilor alone. I spoke with a woman at her church that she has deep respect for that is meeting with my wife this coming Wednesday. We both told my wife's sister whats going on and individually spoke to her. My wife's sister is in a very very similar situation with her husband who treats her more or less the same way I've treated my wife up to this point. My wife and her sister are two pea's in a pod, and in speaking to my sister in law, because she is going through the same thing, it's almost as if I am talking to my wife from outside of the situation without all the messed up feelings. 

I didnt go hard at her today because quite honestly I still dont want to be that aggressive assh*le that she complained about in the first place. 

Like someone said above, it's only been a couple of days, in fact not even a week since the cheat happened. We are both venting, headless people in a topless orbit. Stay tuned and thanks again


----------



## GusPolinski

gridcom said:


> No updates from me today. Both myself and my wife have talked to a bunch of people today, She went to our marriage councilor alone. I spoke with a woman at her church that she has deep respect for that is meeting with my wife this coming Wednesday. We both told my wife's sister whats going on and individually spoke to her. My wife's sister is in a very very similar situation with her husband who treats her more or less the same way I've treated my wife up to this point. My wife and her sister are two pea's in a pod, and in speaking to my sister in law, because she is going through the same thing, it's almost as if I am talking to my wife from outside of the situation without all the messed up feelings.
> 
> I didnt go hard at her today because quite honestly I still dont want to be that aggressive assh*le that she complained about in the first place.
> 
> Like someone said above, it's only been a couple of days, in fact not even a week since the cheat happened. We are both venting, headless people in a topless orbit. Stay tuned and thanks again


FWIW, if you honestly believe that your WW has been in a relationship w/ her co-worker for a year and has only recently _physically_ cheated, you're waaaaay behind the curve.


----------



## Thundarr

gridcom said:


> I didnt go hard at her today because quite honestly I still dont want to be that aggressive assh*le that she complained about in the first place.


Aggression is usually more about trying to control the other person rather than defending boundaries. So I agree that you should not be an aggressive assh*le. The way it works best is for you to decide and voice what you're willing to try what you're willing to accept and not accept. Then she can choose to try on your terms or not. No aggression necessary but you have to accept that you only control how you react and not what others do.


----------



## anchorwatch

gridcom said:


> Like someone said above, it's only been a couple of days, in fact not even a week since the cheat happened. We are both venting, headless people in a topless orbit. Stay tuned and thanks again


In your own time, Grid...


----------



## sparrow555

you are in panic mode mode and are totally talking out of you arse... 

Your current approach is even more damaging to saving your marriage..there is going to be a lot more pain for you..


----------



## sparrow555

gridcom said:


> Tonight was not a good night. After all of your advice tonight, I once again ignored it all and tried to reason with her that giving this marriage every last chance to work was the only proper solution. She's not having it and during the conversation you could clearly tell she was coming from a place of great anger and vindictiveness. She admitted that she was trying to hurt me by being so open about the affair, hoping to "send me over the edge" and act promptly in anger.
> 
> Again, I know you all have really heard enough about this, but I am really trying to do the right thing for my children. To me, it's them first. It really is. This move will devistate them both emotionally and functionally. They will grow up poor kids in a rich town. We are already pretty much on the low end of finances in a financially viable community and cannot afford many things that our childrens peers have, and this is only going to make it way worse.
> 
> Tonight it was clear to me that my wife is in a real dark place, not just with me but in her life. * I am the cause of this. I let her down. I didnt give this woman the love she deserved,* All true. But, she is coming from a real dark place, a vengeful place, an unhealthy place, and a place that is ultimately going to harm my children. I CANNOT SIT BACK AND WATCH THIS HAPPEN AND DO NOTHING. It sucks that I have to cause more chaos in a chaotic situation. That does not generate love and kindness and caring, three things that I lack that I am trying to find in my life. I am absolutely gutted that my plan will not work; trying to nice her back into at least giving the marriage another chance.
> 
> Tomorrow it's on.



:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:


----------



## weightlifter

sparrow555 said:


> :banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:


QFT.

We all tried.


----------



## NoChoice

OP,
I ask this with all the sincerity that I possess and with as much logic as I can introduce and with absolutely no intention of being obnoxious nor malicious so understand that. Also, I do not believe profanity is necessary and I tend to avoid it but I wanted to use your words verbatim. What is the difference between an "aggressive assh*ole" and a cheating assh*ole?


----------



## Keepin-my-head-up

NoChoice said:


> OP,
> I ask this with all the sincerity that I possess and with as much logic as I can introduce and with absolutely no intention of being obnoxious nor malicious so understand that. Also, I do not believe profanity is necessary and I tend to avoid it but I wanted to use your words verbatim. What is the difference between an "aggressive assh*ole" and a cheating assh*ole?


The size of the hole


----------



## bigfoot

Wow, just WOW. I've read your thread and the advice that you are ignoring. Some things don't make sense.

How could you be this huge Azz hole to your wife, correction, aggressive AH, and then, suddenly, realize that you need to be the big fighter, beggar, pleader for the marriage? I mean, you blame yourself and specifically say that it was all your fault and really just bash yourself. IT DOES NOT MAKE ANY SENSE. 

azz hols remain azz holes. You can clean them up, but they are still azz holes. They don't change on a dime and suddenly become martyrs. It doesn't happen. Something does not make sense.

As for your wife, give her what she wants. Seriously, give her a divorce. Get the best deal you can for yourself and let her go. Either she will "snap out of it", whatever that means, once she realizes that she is free to go; or she will go and realize that life with someone else is really life with someone else and not all that stolen moments bullcrap. Lastly, it will be great to be away from you and she will enjoy the rest of her life with this guy. 

Why you would want to keep her in light of what you told us is beyond me. Why she does not just file on you is confusing. I mean, why say stuff to make you angry when all she has to do is file?


----------



## hesitationmarks

Your story is just like mine OP. Don't hang around get an apartment, get some guns and a girlfriend half her age. I got mine back. But it still sucks cause she is squirlly and doesn't really love me and lives in a fantasy about the other guy I believe. She still works with the dude. I wish I would have not gotten back together with her. It's better to let me go trust me. Its never the same


----------



## Chaparral

hesitationmarks said:


> Your story is just like mine OP. Don't hang around get an apartment, get some guns and a girlfriend half her age. I got mine back. But it still sucks cause she is squirlly and doesn't really love me and lives in a fantasy about the other guy I believe. She still works with the dude. I wish I would have not gotten back together with her. It's better to let me go trust me. Its never the same


Its proven many times here, the one absolute everyone agrees on is that cheaters that work together never get over it or become faithful. Surely your gut is telling you this. She gets another job or gets dumped. Its your only shot.

You didn't get yours back, you just swept it under the rug and hoped things will get better.


----------



## hesitationmarks

My wife swears hers was a friendship and did not get physical, not sure if she is truthful. I on the other hand banged a girl half her age which she knows about after we separated and she left me. This is good ammo for her to carry on her friendship. I have no evidence what she is doing, she says they don't speak. I am in a hard place. I can't say to much since I got some on the other side. Mine was a fling women's are tied to emotions


----------



## hesitationmarks

All I know is she holds that over my head and something doesn't feel right and living like this is a complete *****.


----------



## Thor

So while you were officially separated from her you had a fling with another woman. OK, many would consider that fair game while separated. Did you and your wife have a specified agreement on whether or not it was ok to date while separated?

There is some room to argue whether you were right or wrong to bang the girl while separated. But it is nowhere near the same thing as an EA like your wife had!

Why don't you leave your wife now?


----------



## hesitationmarks

That's all I think about, should I leave or should I stay. We have an 10 yo son and sold our two separate houses earlier this year and bought a house together. Things were great at first then she started checking out again, she said things will never be the same after I screwed a girl. Meanwhile she was checked out so far when I did it, what did she expect me to wait around forever. I still don't know if she got physical with the guy but he was definitely in her ear and had her butterflies. She listens to all this country music chase rice and **** in the bath every night. In a fantasy, about this guy I suppose. She keeps her walls up slightly, I believe I am a plan b for her. The guy worked under her, her younger employee. He asked to transfer from her unit because it was causing home stress for him as he has a baby momma at home with a young son together. He is still there under a new supervisor. I have no idea if she talks to him, they flirt or he is playing hard to get and that attracts her. It's a bunch of bull**** I have to live this day to day. Our sex life is okay, frequent massages and sex, she has to use a vibrator to orgasm. I guess I want more affection from her, warm and cuddle but I get none of that. I don't know what to do.


----------



## Chaparral

hesitationmarks said:


> That's all I think about, should I leave or should I stay. We have an 10 yo son and sold our two separate houses earlier this year and bought a house together. Things were great at first then she started checking out again, she said things will never be the same after I screwed a girl. Meanwhile she was checked out so far when I did it, what did she expect me to wait around forever. I still don't know if she got physical with the guy but he was definitely in her ear and had her butterflies. She listens to all this country music chase rice and **** in the bath every night. In a fantasy, about this guy I suppose. She keeps her walls up slightly, I believe I am a plan b for her. The guy worked under her, her younger employee. He asked to transfer from her unit because it was causing home stress for him as he has a baby momma at home with a young son together. He is still there under a new supervisor. I have no idea if she talks to him, they flirt or he is playing hard to get and that attracts her. It's a bunch of bull**** I have to live this day to day. Our sex life is okay, frequent massages and sex, she has to use a vibrator to orgasm. I guess I want more affection from her, warm and cuddle but I get none of that. I don't know what to do.


Polygraph or divorce plus marriage counseling. Have you told her she's acting as she did before.

Your letting her, the cheater run the reconciliation.


----------



## ConanHub

MC is a must if you want a chance.

She can't work with her affair partner for you two to work.

Having sex with someone else really shot a hole in your chances.

You might just want to call this quits.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hardtohandle

After reading this thread I can tell you. You sadly sound like me early on in my divorce.. 

You should read my thread labeled mymistake in my signature.. As you will get to see your future.. 

Hopefully you will grow a pair and protect yourself for your pending divorce.. 

Again it is very hard for you to see this right now because you're at ground zero.. But one day you will look back at this, like I did and wonder WTF was I thinking back then.. 

I can clearly say IF I had the balls I did during my divorce I would have or might have been still married today.. But I know for a fact it would have not been fixed.. 

I said the same things and felt the same way you do.. Sadly you are being fooled by your soon to be ex wife.. What you will kick yourself in the head for is that she will still leave you, and she will leave you as you beg for her to stay.. You will hate that the most later on..

Again I feel bad for you because you just are so afraid to lose her.. You can't see your life without her and that you will do whatever she wants to keep her..


----------



## Decorum

Chaparral said:


> Polygraph or divorce plus marriage counseling. Have you told her she's acting as she did before.
> 
> Your letting her, the cheater run the reconciliation.



I never get it when someone comes on here and says "don't do what I did, you should divorce her" and then acts like his advice is no longer an option for him, like he is stuck or something. It's the same inaction and emotions paralyzing him now as before.


----------



## jb02157

I think thebest thing to do in this situation is to just let her go. She's no good to you anymore, only to cause more hurt. An anyway now that you know that she's capable of this, would you even want her back? Don't talk to her anymore only when necessary and talk to her as she's someone you don't know and be as indifferent as you can. It's best if it looks like she hasn't hurt you. 

One thing I would urge you to do is not seek out a therapist so soon. I would stay with friends or family that will support you til this horrible thing is over. A therapist will only tell you what you already know and and drain which will be much needed resources. 

There will be better days ahead for you, thiunk about that and not what she has done. There isn't anything you can do about that. I would however look for ways to drag her through the mud in divorce court.


----------



## Hardtohandle

jb02157 said:


> I think thebest thing to do in this situation is to just let her go. She's no good to you anymore, only to cause more hurt. An anyway now that you know that she's capable of this, would you even want her back? Don't talk to her anymore only when necessary and talk to her as she's someone you don't know and be as indifferent as you can. It's best if it looks like she hasn't hurt you.
> 
> One thing I would urge you to do is not seek out a therapist so soon. I would stay with friends or family that will support you til this horrible thing is over. A therapist will only tell you what you already know and and drain which will be much needed resources.
> 
> There will be better days ahead for you, thiunk about that and not what she has done. There isn't anything you can do about that. I would however look for ways to drag her through the mud in divorce court.


As my Therapist tells me. 

You are asking a cat to be a dog.. A cat cannot be a dog, so you are asking for the impossible. 

When someone is grasping at straws.. They are grasping at straws.. They are desperate to get this fixed.. They just don't know how.. 

I don't believe in god. But just out of custom I prayed to make my pain go away... I prayed for her to come back.. 

*IF* I could definitely figure out what exactly was wrong.. If someone gave me the cure to fix my Ex wife.. I would take it.. 

But sadly I cannot.. This is something I carry with me for the rest of my life.. 

The OP just hasn't realized that yet.. Everyone realizes it in their own time.. It is a bitter and hard pill to swallow.. It is so painful to realize you just have ZERO control or say when this stuff happens.. 

If I had the cure for this I would give it away to everyone who needed it.. Because some things are just priceless...


----------



## Dyokemm

This thread just reinforces something I have learned a long time ago in life, and it applies to a lot more situations than just infidelity.

You can try to advise and help people all you want....but you cannot make them stand up and fight for themselves or their own dignity as human beings.

Some people are just incapable of it I guess.

I can't even imagine how degrading it must be to a person's self-esteem to be the whipping boy or doormat for vicious, abusive people.

I remember as a kid reading history about slavery in the Classical Greek/Roman world, or feudalism in Medieval Europe, or slavery in Ante Bellum America....and I recall thinking how could people EVER accept being treated like that?

Life has taught me so much, and reading threads here on TAM and other places just reinforces it.

I do not wonder anymore how or why it happens.

Sad....decent people deserve SO much better.

And OP,

I don't care how neglectful you may have been before the A.....all that entitled her to do was demand counseling and better treatment from you....or gave her the right to file for a D if she was that unhappy.

But justified her decision to turn into a f*cking traitor towards you, and destroy your children's family and home in the process?

H*LL NO....that's a sign of her crappy character.

Your WW trying to play the role of the angelic, wronged victim here?.....NO WAY should you tolerate that sh*t.

Your WW is currently acting like an immoral, hateful piece of filth.

File for D and refuse to reconsider until you start seeing real evidence that she can reform herself back into the decent person you thought she was by putting the man she made vows to and her children before her libido.

And find out if POSOM is in a relationship....I think I recall seeing that you didn't think he was but didn't know for sure.

Well find out and start to rain h*ll down on this guy by exposing to a W/gf if he has one and telling him to stay the f*ck away from your WW or you are contacting HR about their little fling.....HE IS DESTROYING YOUR KIDS LIVES AND FAMILY!!!!


----------



## Celly

So I just went through this and basically wish I would have read all these comments 6 months ago! I begged.. Cried.. Etc and it wasn't until I started doing my own thing that he come back. Even then, he came back and continued to see the OW behind my back. Your wife has to see that you are strong enough to move on without her and see that her actions are producing real life irreversible consequences. It's a real slap in the face to them. And affairs rarely last when reality hits. It's all just fantasy.. So ruin that by exposing her!! I hate cheaters!!! Such selfish people! I'm sorry for what you're going through.. And Know that it wasn't your fault. It does get easier.. Do you!


----------



## gridcom

I promise to update you all soon. It's late and i just read all comments from last two weeks. I tuned out on you. Coming back and reading the new comments has been discouraging. There is a lot to say. I don't know how this lands. It can land any which way right now. The affair is over (for now) as I confronted this guy and we had a very civil conversation (considering he ****ed my wife). I have eyes and ears all over the place so I'm pretty confident in all of my sources, including friends working as double agents, a quick glimpse of her text messages, and one of her co-workers. I'd make a great detective, but that doesnt solve the bigger issue. 

Bottom line, still fighting for my marriage. There's been good days and bad. I will be back when I have an hour to type, I promise


----------



## GusPolinski

gridcom said:


> I promise to update you all soon. It's late and i just read all comments from last two weeks. I tuned out on you. Coming back and reading the new comments has been discouraging. There is a lot to say. I don't know how this lands. It can land any which way right now. The affair is over (for now) as I confronted this guy and we had a very civil conversation (considering he ****ed my wife). I have eyes and ears all over the place so I'm pretty confident in all of my sources, including friends working as double agents, a quick glimpse of her text messages, some guy I paid on Craigslist, and one of her co-workers. I'd make a great detective, but that doesnt solve the bigger issue.
> 
> *Bottom line, still fighting for my marriage.* There's been good days and bad. I will be back when I have an hour to type, I promise


That's fine and all, but how about your wife?


----------



## FeministInPink

GusPolinski said:


> That's fine and all, but how about your wife?


Yeah--if your wife isn't willing to fight for the marriage, it's a losing battle, bro.


----------



## JohnA

Hi Grid,

First your issues: dont change for her, change for yourself so you will have a better relationship with her or someone else (and I don't mean younger and hotter. I mean the healthy marriage she and you wanted )

Second you do not leave the house, ever ! At the very least you leave the marriage is over and daddy issues set in for the girls.

Third: your girls, they need you more then her at this stage of their life.. How many women have daddy issues vs mommy issues. Read up on the subject,

Finally if the marriage fails what form does the divoice settlement take? What are your vulnerabilities in court ? Address them now. Rembeber she said she hates you !


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## gridcom

Hi all-

Where to begin. Well, I'll work backwards. Someone should have sent me the link for the thread for newbies right out of the gate (apologies if someone did). I read that last night and it was honestly very painful/sobering.

I've been gone from here for a few weeks because the "negativity" here was counter to what I have been trying to do, which is save my marriage. A ton has happened, as you can imagine. I've made a few newbie mistakes, one of which was I did send my wife a link to this thread a few weeks ago to show her what.....eh, you know why I sent her the link. Anyway, I dont think she has come here in a while (if ever).

That said, her affair is over (for now). There may be a "Fishing" attempt at some point, I'd have to assume. I confronted the guy twice. The first time I was so on point and relaxed and it ended with him basically crying and trying to convince me he is a better human being than one who would sleep with a married woman. They immediately stopped contact, but then only 5 days later, my wife reached out and he reciprocated (just texts). Then I called him again. Since then, there has been zero contact.

On the flipside, my wife and I are trying to reconcile. Me full throttle, and her not so full throttle. Her family and friends (who know) have overwhelmingly put the pressure on her and the heat to work things out with me. I am doing everything in my power to be as nice as can be, and we've had some good days (days where I give her space, be nice, be fun, keep it simple) and some not so good days (emotional rollercoaster). I dont know if I mentioned, but my wife is a christian and I am agnositc. I have started to go to church with her (because why not and what's the worst that can happen). There is a woman at her church who she really respects and she opened up to this woman and subsequently I also reached out to this woman and here we are 2 weeks after that started and this woman and I are talking daily. She is such a calm yet positive force. She is the only person who's had any luck shifting my wife to any other point of view. Her father and her sister, who both came at her pretty aggressively, have had no luck. Her best friend and her had an argument recently. Not specifically about this, but her friend was very much also against my wife doing anything but reconciliation. They had an argument where essentially my wife accused her friend of being a bad parent (in a very very roundabout way) and her friend was so appalled at the nerve of my wife (the irony, considering) that she has stopped talking to my wife and has ended the friendship (for now, it's been a week). 

The woman at my wife's church gave us books to read. The one I am reading is this: http://www.amazon.com/DNA-Relations...3356&sr=1-1&keywords=the+dna+of+relationships
This book, while God oriented, is pretty on point on the basic failing of communication in a marriage. There have been passages where my heart beats hard because it's so on point to what my wife and I have gone through in our marriage. It makes me understand that a happy marriage was not far off (at least before the affair). My wife is reading this: http://www.amazon.com/DNA-Relations...3356&sr=1-2&keywords=the+dna+of+relationships 
which is essentially the same book, but written with 4 couples that are going through intense counciling would go through.

Anyway, we also have seen her Paster, and have had a few more MC sessions. My wife's basic attitude right now is that she wants to WANT to reconcile, but is honest with me that she's not feeling it right now and makes no promises she ever will. Sobering and painful; plus the fact that this affair happened (currently past tense, but legitimately past tense) is right now hard for me to swallow and move on. She hasn't shown the remorse necessary. My begging and pleading has allowed her to justify her poor behavior and it's more about what a sh*tty husband I was when in reality now that the dust settled I wasnt nearly as sh*tty as one could be sh*tty to justify sleeping with another man. But, still, no remorse. She's not being an a**hole, and is friendly if I am friendly, but thats it.

I have two young girls here, who are 10 and 5. They are oblivious to any trouble, but I am in Limbo so I'm sure they must have a sense of some pain coming from me. My wife doesn't seen to recognize that if did the 180, these kids would instantly be affected in ways that I am terrified of. My stance has simply been "this is the biggest decision of your entire life, and there are the lives of multiple people at stake. We should be doing everything we can to get back to the center and making the marriage work", which I feel is a positive approach and the best approach for my girls. However, this is not the approach this website and forums suggest and coming back here last night had me in tears with the reality of my situation.

One option for me, due to the nature of my job, is I have been thinking of just leaving for 6-8 weeks. As in, disappearing from my wife for that length of time. No contact. The money would still come into our joint account so she can pay the bills. I would Facetime with my daughters only, and cut off all contact with my wife. Her sister said to me that she cant miss me or appreciate what positives I did bring to her life if I am here, begging. I think this may be a way to save marriage, or at least have it roll in the right direction. Most people cant afford to just up and leave town because their job requires them to physically be somewhere. I have the luxury of working wherever I am. As long as my brain and fingers work, and this computer works and there is wi-fi, I am good to go. I've talked to a lawyer and he said as long as I am not gone more than 6 months (NY State) it's not abandonment if you leave the money unchanged. This idea is starting to steamroll in my head. My wife is living with a walking disaster.


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## bandit.45

Nothing is going to change with you trying to "nice" her back into the relationship. See, TAM is more of a tough love approach. If you are going to bypass what we tell you then maybe Marriage Builders would be more palatable website for you to get help. Feel free to vent here but if she knows about this site then you have lost your safe place. She will know every tactic you are going to try and she will come up with a counter tactic. 

You have made just about every mistake a guy can make. 

Oh and I guarantee if you disappear, your wife will file for divorce based on abandonment. You will lose your kids and any support you have gained with friends and family, and she will quickly resume her affair and might even move the other man in to take your place. 

You just make one bad decision after another. You will not listen to people with experience. But you know what? It's is your life man. Do what you want.


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## happy as a clam

gridcom said:


> One option for me, due to the nature of my job, is I have been thinking of just leaving for 6-8 weeks. As in, disappearing from my wife for that length of time. No contact. The money would still come into our joint account so she can pay the bills. I would Facetime with my daughters only, and cut off all contact with my wife.


This is a terrible idea!

Do not just "disappear" for 6-8 weeks. The judge will have a field day with that if/when it comes time for a custody hearing. If she wants a divorce, she can leave.

Meanwhile, you can do what thousands upon thousands of couples do who are awaiting divorce. They continue to live in the same house, as separately as possible. Move HER out of the master bedroom into a guest bedroom or the couch. Be pleasant and courteous, but avoid chit-chat and hovering.

You cannot be a "nice guy" AND win her back. It just doesn't work that way. Time to get tough.

I agree with bandit. You are not really taking any of the advice offered, you seem to just want to do it your way. That's your prerogative. But don't be surprised when things don't go the way you are hoping.


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## ThreeStrikes

True reconciliation isn't possible unless the wayward spouse shows real remorse, and does the heavy lifting to *win you back!*

Your cheater wife hasn't done any of the above, and so what you have is a false reconciliation. You're doing all the work, you're "changing", you're attempting to win her back. 

It's lame, man. She cannot respect you.

Odds are the affair is only on temporary hold, not ended like you believe. Your WW is holding out for the affair to resume.

Get this notion of disappearing for an extended time, in order to show your wife what it's like to live without you, out of your head. It's ridiculous, and your kids need their father present. Your WW will just take it as an opportunity to resume her affair(s). She *wants* you gone, get it?

The best thing you can do, if you want to snap your WW out of the affair fog, is to serve her with D papers. Show her that you will not tolerate her behavior, and if she's not "all in", then she's out.

If she suddenly changes heart and starts showing remorse, then you can call off the D and worry about rebuilding your marriage with counselling.


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## Chaparral

Did you get the two ooks linked to below? MMSLP is a relationship guide to win back a wife that is no longer attracted to her husband. At least read the reviews on amazon.


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## Thundarr

Gridcom,
I hate to see you do this to yourself because you're actively participating in no chance of real reconciliation. You'll have to look back on this one day and realize that you sabotaged what you say you're trying to save because you were afraid to accept a few realities. For starters the only person you control is yourself. It's way past the point of discussing with her why she needs to stop. Now is the time to set your expectations and let her know what it will take for her to stay with you. Then it's 100% her choice to abide or not and then it's your choice to do what you have to do. As it stands you're still snooping and threatening which says you're trying to control the situation; trying to control her. Do you really think that can work? Secondly you're rationalizing that you're being nice but your wife can see that you're desperate to keep her and in her mind you'll take whatever you can get. Why would she think otherwise?

Let me say it loud and clear, you deserve to be with someone who's loyal so don't lower the bar because you're afraid. If she's cheating then the person she is today is not someone you want.


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## turnera

Why on earth should she CARE about saving the marriage when you've made it clear you'll stay no matter what she does?

And tell me why she would WANT you when you're throwing yourself at her? We want what we can't have and we pity whatever throws itself at us.

Right now you're being pitiful. And I'm not trying to say that as a dis, but as an education. Psychologically, you are NOT APPEALING.


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## ConanHub

BTW. Your wife's skanky ass has about as much to do with Jesus as the head of Isis has to do with a gay pride parade.

Since you're not a believer, tell her what a great testimony to her faith fvcking other men was for you and your daughters are sure to want to follow in her footsteps someday.

People that claim Christianity while acting like fvcking livestock in heat drive me nuts!

Glad she has a church lady she is listening to but your wife needs the heat! Bring some repercussions for her idiocy or prolong everyone's suffering.

Even the bible talks about repentance, paying back, repercussions for crappie actions.

You can't make your WW be a better person. She has to come to the conclusion that being a tramp is undesirable.

You can make her suffer consequences for her behavior which actually might help her stop being a slvt and shape up.

You are right to be concerned for your children because your wife cares more for her crotch right now than their well being and future.

You need to treat evil like it is evil and stamp that shyt down!

Your wife is a terrible mother. If she doesn't break out of this, they will be stuck with slvt mom for years. Maybe for the rest of their lives.

Do you need to have her as your wife?

If you answered yes, you are screwed.

The truth is you don't need her. Especially the slvt version who couldn't care less about what her crotch monster is doing to her family.

If you aren't willing to shock some sense into her by putting divorce papers in front of her and cutting her completely off emotionally, then I don't think you even have a chance at reconciliation.

Good job at scaring the shyt out of OM. Dealing him trouble in his life is right.

If he is busy trying to put out fires and fix damage, he won't be trying anything else with your WW much less anyone else.

If you can cause him some disruption, do it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45

This is like watching a blindfolded guy walk along the edge of the Grand Canyon.


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## Clay2013

bandit.45 said:


> This is like watching a blindfolded guy walk along the edge of the Grand Canyon.


Actually that might be amusing. This is just painful to watch. He has to learn his own way like so many others. 

Just sad.

C


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## FeministInPink

ConanHub said:


> BTW. Your wife's skanky ass has about as much to do with Jesus as the head of Isis has to do with a gay pride parade.
> 
> Since you're not a believer, tell her what a great testimony to her faith fvcking other men was for you and your daughters are sure to want to follow in her footsteps someday.
> 
> People that claim Christianity while acting like fvcking livestock in heat drive me nuts!
> 
> Glad she has a church lady she is listening to but your wife needs the heat! Bring some repercussions for her idiocy or prolong everyone's suffering.
> 
> Even the bible talks about repentance, paying back, repercussions for crappie actions.
> 
> You can't make your WW be a better person. She has to come to the conclusion that being a tramp is undesirable.
> 
> You can make her suffer consequences for her behavior which actually might help her stop being a slvt and shape up.
> 
> You are right to be concerned for your children because your wife cares more for her crotch right now than their well being and future.
> 
> You need to treat evil like it is evil and stamp that shyt down!
> 
> Your wife is a terrible mother. If she doesn't break out of this, they will be stuck with slvt mom for years. Maybe for the rest of their lives.
> 
> Do you need to have her as your wife?
> 
> If you answered yes, you are screwed.
> 
> The truth is you don't need her. Especially the slvt version who couldn't care less about what her crotch monster is doing to her family.
> 
> If you aren't willing to shock some sense into her by putting divorce papers in front of her and cutting her completely off emotionally, then I don't think you even have a chance at reconciliation.
> 
> Good job at scaring the shyt out of OM. Dealing him trouble in his life is right.
> 
> If he is busy trying to put out fires and fix damage, he won't be trying anything else with your WW much less anyone else.
> 
> If you can cause him some disruption, do it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


In biblical times, they stoned adulterers. 

The more I read here on TAM, the more I think that's an appropriate punishment.


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## gridcom

It's funny. I took someone's advice and went to marriagebuilders.com and it was like reading about my own situation, textbook and verbatim. It was pretty powerful to read in that they broke down my situation step by exact step. It made me realize that my situation is no different at all. However, their approach (as mentioned) was very much different. "The Policy of Undivided Attention" "The Policy Of Joint Agreement". I mean, admittedly this was entirely based on infidelity in which the cheater was looking for some path to get back to a healthy marriage, which my wife barely is. The best I am getting is she "wants to want to". 

Anyway, to emotionally turn it off (suddenly) seems like the biggest hill to climb. I reread the 180 this morning and it makes sense to me now considering 4 weeks has passed. Easier said than done. I'm sure you all understand and know that I am stabbed in the heart and bleeding all over the house. My kids are downstairs now playing on their ipads and my wife is making chili and I am up here bleeding out all over the keypad. And overwhelmingly. it seems my move is to flip the scirpt and it's going to take all the power in the world. And to do it and not have the chip on my shoulder, not to be short, not to be unpleasant, not to be cold, wow. How in the fvck can I actually have the strength.

I believe I do need to do it. You did talk me out of leaving. I had this Jon Hamm at the end of Mad Men idea where I'd just hit hotel after hotel and have adventures and turn this crisis into something memorable, but yeah my kids do need me.

Stay tuned


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## turnera

You have the strength by knowing you are getting educated and know better how to strengthen a marriage. And knowing you're using psychological logic for your situation. We want what we can't have, we ignore what is easy to get. Stop being easy to get. Give only as much as you're being given.


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## ConanHub

FeministInPink said:


> In biblical times, they stoned adulterers.
> 
> The more I read here on TAM, the more I think that's an appropriate punishment.


LOL!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub

Marriage Builder stuff is great after the affair is dealt with and your WW is fully on board with your marriage.

They aren't that great at having the cheater own their affair.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ButtPunch

OP

I am late to this parade but I sense a lot of fear in you. I'm familiar with
the posters like you hiding behind their kids. Seen so many I can't count. 
Your fear of divorce is emasculating you.

LISTEN TO ME. SHE QUITS HER JOB TODAY OR YOU FILE FOR DIVORCE.
IT REALLY IS THAT SIMPLE. 


ALL THE BEST
BP


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## Decorum

ConanHub said:


> Marriage Builder stuff is great after the affair is dealt with and your WW is fully on board with your marriage.
> 
> They aren't that great at having the cheater own their affair.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It really is that simple!

If the WS is willing to do ANYTHING to save the relationship it's a completely different situation.

The hellish limbo of a false reconciliation where the WS is not really in love with the BS, it is like watching someone having their skin removed with a filet knife.


Believe me we have watched it go on and on for several years here, its brutal.


If she could do it over today, standing at the alter "Do you take this man..." she would say no. See the difference?


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## Thor

One of my neighbors is a single father to two daughters. The girls were around 10 yrs old when the divorce happened. Both are now in their early-mid 20's and are great ladies. They both did well in high school and college. He spent more time with his kids than most fathers! He was a coach in sports leagues they were in. He kept them physically active, away from too many hours of screen time. Those girls are much better off today than many of their peers from families with married parents.

It is very much about the quality of the parenting. Growing up in one dysfunctional home is worse than having divorced parents with at least one parent happy. As long as you provide good parenting and a happy healthy environment for them, they will be fine even if you get divorced.

Divorce doesn't have to be worse for kids than staying married.


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## Vulcan2013

Get to 30 posts. When you can see the private forum, you can pm a mod to have this thread moved there and not be seen. 

When you try to nice a cheater back, when you beg, you only feed a monstrous, entitled ego. Why would she want to change that? Humility is a big step down.


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## JohnA

Gridcom,

You are running around in a panic and if not already you will make decisions and take actions you will regret the rest of your life. Your posts are manic. 

First and more important then your wife at this point.

First repair and build your relationship with your daughters. How are you involved in your daughters life? P/U and drop offs count. Running errands for their activities count. Speak to their teachers, coaches, church leaders and ask how you can help. It helps to create doubt in your WW mind. Let her notice do not point it out. Seriously if the affair continues she will be comparing who would be the better father for daughters. He already understands her, appreciates her, etc. Do not talk to her about this, just move to solidify your relationship with then, we need to see post on how you are doing this.


Next go to church and then go to brunch. Who cares if Mary was a virgin, the message is solid. 

Do not leave town at this time. You will spend the hole time wondering what they are doing and wind up bugging her and pissing her off. Discuss it as a October event with her.


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## Marc878

It may be too late for you but one thing is certain if YOU don't take control of your situation you are doomed.

You need to man up fast and get moving if only for your own self respect. If you don't respect yourself no one will.

This is on her not you. 

Go full exposure. What do you have to lose??????


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## VFW

Begging, coercing, and trying to nice your wife back into the relationship only makes you look needy and women never like needy men, you couldn't chase her away faster if you used a stick (figuratively). You need to see an attorney, you don't have to file, but you need to evaluate your legal position. You need to start spending quality with your children, just you and them, bicycle rides, go to the zoo, park, swimming. Additionally, you need to consider what you would want in financial, property, child custody settlements. Again you don't need to discuss with wife yet, but you need to be ahead of the game, if you leave this to her, you probably won't like the results. I know that you want to reconcile, but you can't do this by yourself, so don't fool yourself. It is time for the 180 to help you adjust and show her what the future is going to be like. This does not mean you have to be mean or even a jerk, but you need to work on you so that you can have a successful relationship going forward. She may or may not choose to be part of that future, but you can only control you, it is time to start moving forward.


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## LongWalk

Hi Gridcom,

Late catching up with your thread. I advise you to reread the whole thing again, every post.

If you do, I suspect you will find yourself nodding at some posts and shaking your head at others, namely your own.

Nothing wrong with discovering that one has made mistakes.

If you had played everything perfectly, you would have been the guy Gus wrote about. Few of us have it all figured out.

ButtPunch spelled it out. As long as she goes to this job, where OM is, your marriage is at risk. They meet. They make eyes at each other and soon they are having sex again, the consequences be gosh darned. 

Some scientists believe that semen contains mood altering compounds that are absorbed by the vagina. You can google and read about the studies. Sure makes sense. Being in love is like being high. Now the high is gone and your wife is depressed. You are not given the opportunity to experience hysterical bonding because your wife no longer associates you with romance.

I think you can change the image your wife has of you if you become a church going dad. That doesn't mean she'll be attracted to you, how long is this reconciliation going to last. RoadScholar was in a situation like yours. His wife wouldn't sex with him for 6 months after the affair was over. She missed OM. When he discovered that she had texted OM, not to get together, just to say she still thought of him, RS was mighty disappointed and angry. She saw in his eyes that he was going to divorce her. She wanted to have sex again right away. Was the reconciliation sex as good as what she had been having with OM? No. But it got better over time. 

RS's reconciliation was scoffed at by many here. But he got his wife to become a less selfish person than she had been before the affair. He stayed for his kids but he definitely did not accept OM lurking round. Did his wife feel that the affair had been a good thing in her life? Wayward spouses don't share every thought. But over time you can fix your marriage, but are you willing to risk losing it first?

Are you ready to tell your wife that you don't want to keep her if she'll be happier elsewhere?

It was good that you chased OM away. Why do you think he dared to contact your wife again?


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## gridcom

I'm still here, all. I dont have the time to write the epic-ness of all that has happened. But, bottom line, I havent followed your advise and......yep....it's only gotten worse. Well, let me take that back. It hasnt gotten worse, but it hasnt gotten better. I've sent this woman every piece of literature, all of it makes sense. She read "Not Just Friends" and came out of reading it like the two of us read two different books. 

I do think I have convinced her to end the affair in the sense that she is no longer talking to him and certainly not seeing him. For years, we have always had "Location Services" on our phones and I can tell where she is pretty much al the time. She is aware. I work from home and she is home all the time. Almost anywhere she is I can validate what she is doing what she says she is doing, with literally no exception. 

That said, she is pissed because I ended the relationship where she wanted it to continue, even though everyone in her world told her it was a bad idea. I think she understands that it wasnt the best idea, but she still holds it against me in that her issue with me in the first place was that I was a dictating controller and here I was controlling. 

So, she is here in the house and I am here in the house and all I do is club her over the head with data, facts, articles that scream "YOU ARE A FOOL!" and all she see's is the club I am hitting her with. 

I wake up everyday wishing I had the discpline to do the 180 but I dont have the discipline. I will write more soon but more or less, my wife has at least put her affair on pause for now but she is no fan of mine. I do need to back off. She is a good woman who was emotionally vulnerable and made a terrible mistake. She is in the fog right now for sure. She is getting IC and I am getting IC. Right now, she can legit say she isnt doing anything wrong and hasnt really in a month. But despite her family and friends and every where she turns on the internet screaming at her to fix her marriage, she doesnt want to. She says she is out of love with me, could never imagine being in love with me again, and all consuquences be damned

19 years.

I'll be back I promise


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## turnera

Great. Set her free.

Kick her the hell out.


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## gridcom

not that easy. I have two daughters entering 5th grade and kindergarten tomorrow. Plus, I cant legally kick her out. She has as much right (legally) to stay here as I do


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## ConanHub

Remember. Cheating is a choice not a mistake.

Good people are tempted and don't.

The bad are tempted and do.

Your wife is currently a bad person. She can change that with a lot of work but she certainly isn't good right now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

gridcom said:


> not that easy. I have two daughters entering 5th grade and kindergarten tomorrow. Plus, I cant legally kick her out. She has as much right (legally) to stay here as I do


Semantics. You know what I mean.


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## LongWalk

Gridcom,

Listen to Turnera. She has seen dozens of stories like yours. They are variations on a script. There are different endings but they follow a certain logic.

You love your wife and believe in her core goodness. Fine. Place that notion, attitude, belief deep inside of yourself, where it is not visible to anyone. Don't wear your heart on your sleeve for goodness (replace "goodness" with the choice swear word that works for you) sake.

File for divorce. Look your wife in the eye and calmly tell her:

"I love you but I don't want to you be a prisoner in a loveless relationship. These divorce papers set you free. In X months (whatever the waiting period is in your state) you'll be able to move on. The kids will be fine. It's our job to get them through to the other side. If you cannot wait to start dating, please move out. If you want to separate, before the divorce is final, we can work out a division of assets and custody and go to mediation for review."

What you should not say: "I am waiting in bed every night, hoping."

She already knows you are longing to connect with her.

You need to hit the gym and do things with buddies. One technique to change your life is to get up early and run. You start the day with a 3-mile workout, take a shower and go to work. One guys whose wife no longer desired him and was preparing to leave him eventually fell back in love. 

How long is her drive to work everyday? How about putting a VAR in her car so you can hear her phone calls?


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## JohnA

Hi gridcom 

I notice you mentioned your wife is still in the fog. I think the BS endures a fog as well. I have not seen it discussed, but it does hinder the decsion process. I think the more important thing for you is to continue working on your issues. They effect all yur relationships, and hindering or damaging all of them.

Let's step back and view your issues in your daughters life and how these changes have improve your relationship with them. I know it seems impossible not to focus on your marriage but the daughters are a part of it too. Let your wife see your changes reflected in her daughters life. I know she will see it as a ploy until she comes out of the fog. So what, your daughters need this more and someday she will know. 

Please post these thoughts and also beginning studying daddy issues and how to avoid them.


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## Chaparral

You eed to work on yourself. Get the MMSLP book linked to below. If that doesnt work, nothing will. You can also download it from amazon.com


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## LongWalk

Road Scholar

Bagdon's She said with a man I don't love

These threads are both long. Both were "success" stories.

For sure you should stop trying to coerce her emotions. That never works.


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## ThreeStrikes

gridcom said:


> not that easy. I have two daughters entering 5th grade and kindergarten tomorrow.


You're going to reach a point where the pain and* loneliness* of living with a wife who doesn't love you pushes you to the precipice.

Then you will act.

Until then, try to understand that you don't love your wife. You love the idealistic version of her that only exists in your mind. 

Grid, we don't love people that hurt us over and over, without remorse. That's dysfunctional co-dependence. (I hope you are discussing this with your IC.)

Learn the technique of self-observation. Observe your situation from an elevation of 50,000 feet. You can't hear what anyone is saying up there. But you can see what they are doing. You observe their actions. 

Watch what is happening as if it is happening to someone else.

What do you see?


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## Thor

gridcom said:


> not that easy. I have two daughters entering 5th grade and kindergarten tomorrow. Plus, I cant legally kick her out. She has as much right (legally) to stay here as I do


Grid, you're me 15 yrs ago. I had a Prime Directive to not break up the family because of the kids.

It is absolutely true when people say you cannot fix your marriage until you are willing to end your marriage. To put it another way, the marriage is controlled by the person who cares the least about it.

I understand that you _prefer_ to be married. Idk about you, but I actually like being married, and I get great reward out of family. Your wife probably has many good qualities, and you still find yourself attracted to her. There are times you see the old her when you do stuff, and it feels really good. You look at your kids and you don't want them to go through the difficulties of the divorce and having a broken family.

But this is not reality, it is idealism. Your wife is now not at all the same person you married years ago. She isn't even being a good mother to the children!

So now you have to deal with the sh1t sandwich you've been dealt. You can define various outcomes, but don't become welded to one of them. There are many good (but not perfect) possibilities ahead.

One good outcome is your wife gets out of this fog and returns to the marriage in a genuine way. While your marriage will never be the same, it can be good. Some couples do reconcile and have a good marriage.

Another good outcome is you and your wife split up but remain good co-parents. Your children witness good behavior by both of you, and feel loved and secure in both homes. You spend a good amount of time with your kids and are involved in their lives. Your kids see healthy relationships being modeled, at least by you but hopefully by your ex-W in her new relationships.

Not so good is a toxic divorce process but a functional co-parenting situation after that.

Worse is you staying in a bad marriage. The kids witness bad behaviors, unhealthy dynamics, and unhappy parents. Nobody wins here, but you'd at least satisfy the Prime Directive.

How do you get to one of the good outcomes? You have strong boundaries, you set firm requirements and expectations on her, and you do whatever tough things are necessary to make that happen. Avoiding the pain or anxiety now will only cost you much more in the future.

There is a chance, though seemingly small from this distance, you can break this affair fog of hers and bring her back. But you can't do it by being nice or by nudging her.

Finally, there is no good time in the future as far as considering your kids go. There will always be something to use as an excuse not to risk the marriage. The kids are starting school. The holidays are around the corner. The school year is almost over and the family vacation is coming up. Etc etc etc. But the kids will do better sooner rather than later if it comes to D. When they're teens you have a whole new crop of concerns with them. If it is going to be D, it is better now than later.

Can you live like this for the next 15 yrs?


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## lifeistooshort

I think there is a power struggle going on. If it's true that you've been angry and controlling you're now in the boy who cried wolf scenario. .... you've done it so much that now that you actually have a reason to be a little controlling your wife doesn't want to hear it. It's just one incident in a long line of you controlling everything so even though you have legitimate issues it's overshadowed by your history. 

And as you're seeing the pressuring by friends and family is counterproductive, it only makes her feel like once again what she needs or wants doesn't matter and someone else is making her decisions. She's tired of not being able to make her own decisions. 

Certainly she handled this poorly by having an affair. People that are accustomed to being controlled will often rebel or make poor decisions. 

At this point I think it's very important that you remain calm, enforce boundaries, tell everyone to get off her arse and let her make her own decisions. Certainly nobody would blame you if you didn't want her back, but you can't pressure her into wanting to be married if your aim is in fact wanting to be married to her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marc878

No change in your direction = no change in your situation.

Do you not get that?


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## gridcom

Such great feedback. I've been reading other testimonials these past few days. Reading Road Scholar now (page 24). Read the epic Thorburn one. 

No change in direction = No change in the situation

I get it. I wish I had the balls to apply it. 

A few things to add to the equation to all of this, so at least you get a more complete picture

1- My stance with my wife has been either you move out of the house and follow through on your affair OR you end your affair and I get to see proof. She says she doesnt have to legally leave the house. I respond that "legally no, morally and ethically yes". I'm not leaving the marriage, I'm not leaving the house, I'm not leaving the kids, I'm not leaving the bed. I am not leaving. I am also not living with infidelity. She says she cannot afford to move out (neither of us could). She says if she could afford it, she would. I tell her that if it comes down to her sleeping on her mom's couch versus me leaving the house, she should sleep on her moms couch. I shouldnt have to live or adjust my life etc etc for the sh*t she is spraying all over the place

2- My oldest daughter (10 years old) knows that my wife is into another guy. My wife thinks that it was calculated that she found out. That isnt true. My daughter isnt happy about it, simply insists that we work it out, doesnt want to hear about it anymore. She is angry with my wife and my wife is angry that she knows. My daughter heard my mother and my wife arguing and asked my wife what was up. My wife didnt say anything so my daughter asked me if we were getting a divorce. My wife and I did agree that when the time came, we would tell our oldest daughter the truth. So, when I was asked by my daughter if we were getting a divorce, the three of us sat down and we told our daughter we were having problems and trying to fix etc. I did tell her "mommies are supposed to love only daddies and vice versa, but right now your mommy has feelings for another man" I told my wife if you dont want your daughter to know your are a lowlife that slept with someone other than her father, DONT BE A LOWLIFE AND SLEEP WITH SOMEONE OTHER THAN HER FATHER and there wont be an issue.

3- I'm convinced that my wife has only slept with this guy only once. I have GPS on her phone (she is aware) and I work from home and between her schedule, the GPS, the kids, etc it be extremely hard for it to have had happen a second time. That said, they have seen each other a few times after work for a few minutes. i caught her post work in a parking lot (via GPS) two nights in a row for just shy of 15 minutes on two succesive nights a few weeks back. This was after we had a huge fight because I have had my moments where I am just F**KING PI**ED OFF. Again, wrong approach. When is the remorse coming? Where is the sorrow? Etc. This road of dialogue often leads to a blow out and this one was particularly bad and it was followed by these two 15 minute parking lot hangs. Who knows what happens in the parking lot, but I am choosing to believe that in 15 minutes (more like 13), they are not tumbling into a car in a public parking lot and humping in the car in the little time they can see each other. My wife is more into the man than the sex, I really believe.

4- I also have access to our phone records onlinr and in all the time they've been doing whatever it is they are doing, they've spoken on the phone a total of 9 minutes. I've checked for a second phone.

5- She tells me it has nothing to do with another man, this was a long time coming YET I caught her Googling "Want to leave my husband for another man but husband controls everything" I confronted her with this and she just hummana hummana hummana.... She says that because she only slept with him once, and has since seen him in that parking lots twice, that because she isnt seeing him every day or sleeping with him anymore, it's no longer an affair. In fact, this position has been a lightning rod for me just blowing my stack. Imagine Ralph Kramden in the kitchen going "Not an affair? NOT AN AFFAIR?" and slapping his hand on the table. Just modernized  It's extremely silly

6- The past 8 weeks (d-day July 7) have been the worst 8 weeks of my life. This has been the worst thing to ever happen to me. It's been traumatic. I wish I would have acted different from the beginning. I wish I had the discipline. My wife says the way I am acting now is why she no longer wants to be with me. I tell her this is the worst thing that ever happened to me, SHE'S THE ONE WHO DID IT TO ME, and she has to watch me go through the process in the same small house all day long (I work from home).

7- She says she is sorry for the affair (but not really). Her position is that she wanted to end the marriage and she went about it the wrong way. But, now that it happened OH WELL, TOO LATE NOW. But, she still wants the marriage to end. Again, she isnt moving and I am not moving. She wants to go to a mediator. I tell her to come out of her affair fog and tell me she still wants to go (begging her back). I tell her we dont need to spend $2,000 to go to some lawyer for them to tell us that we cannot afford an additional $1500 a month in a sad little studio apt and gas/electric/heat/cable/etc. She would need to get a real full time job (I make 9X more than her) but I dont see any indication that she's trying real hard. Yes, it's idiotic. I tell her whether or not we reconcile or not, she's going to have to go get a new job, but she is in denial. She must think somehow money can get generated JUST BECAUSE. Everytime I ask her how she see's this playing out, she says "I dont know, lets go to a mediator...." UGH

8- I do hate HATE HATE the idea of not seeing my kids every day. I work here and I get to see them grow up. Seeing them only half the time, having them only half the time, having them coming to a sad sack studio apt where it wont be THEIR rooms in THEIR house, they'll hate it. 

9- I do not think I was nearly as bad in my marriage as my wifes makes it out to be. I think she has created a new narrative to justify her behaviour in her own brain. She is very focused on the 2-3 times a year we would have a blow out about some stupid [email protected] like money or house work or where we should improve our home/property or what we should do with specific issues with our kids. Nothing unusual, I just dug in on my position and when it doesnt go my way, I act like a d*ick. That's it, that's my flaw. Otherwise, we got along fine, were close, had normal sex a normal amount of time, I am a great father, provider, etc etc.

Ok, so there is a stream of words. I'm not even going to spell check hahaha. 

Do I do the 180 now? Start tonight? I think I can do it now. I have gotten all the "BUT YOUR WRONG!!!!!" out of my system. I've hit her over the head with a 2x4 of books, and websites, and testimonials, having her friends and family and church friends come down on her. I've bombed her with logic. It does nothing. She is in IC and I am in IC. She likes it but doesnt mean anything is changing in her approach. I like it but I have a way to go. Right now, I'm just frustrated. Can you tell?


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## Satya

Seriously... who cares what she says?

Watch what she does.

And act accordingly.

Regarding your daughter... it was only a matter of time until she found out. The important thing is that you and your wife are both behind the message that you each love her. Pointing fingers of who the bad parent is won't help. Your daughter will reach an age when she can make her own value judgement on you both. Until then she is dealing with learning her mom is not a goddess and her dad is going through a difficult time. You need to put on some armor and show her that you will be fine, because you will, and it will be a very valuable lesson for her.

ETA: stop bothering with the verbal 2x4. She won't get it until she decides to get it. You just carry on with what you know you have to do. Don't tell her, prompt her, dangle the carrot of "I'm really gonna do it!" Just get busy with doing things for you.


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## TiredHubby2791

Follow the advice you have been given here. Contact an attorney immediately. You may even want to hire a PI to get the dirt in case she starts to deny the affair. Get evidence!!!! Recordings, pictures, phone records, Internet data, social media evidence, whatever you can gather. A divorce can be especially nasty, especially if you stand to get custody of your kids. Also, take care of yourself. Get to the gym, reconnect with family and friends, and make sure your eating right as well as getting plenty of sleep. She has made her bed and must now lie in it and own her shame.


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## LongWalk

If it makes you feel better, tell her that you are sorry you have harangued her over the affair so much. And then start the 180.

Don't lose your temper. It gets you nowhere.

"Just say, 'Honey, sorry I've been in a bad temper. I didn't know you wanted out of our marriage for so long. I was blind, sorry. You are free to go. I wish you luck. Mediation doesn't increase our wealth. You have to get a job to finance this. Let's talk about the kids and nothing else'."

Shake hands and stop talking to her all the time. Let her go her own way.


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## turnera

Where is the remorse?

In hiding, waiting to see you sic your lawyer on her. Without a word. Let the lawyer do the work. Meanwhile, you do the 180 and start living your NEW life. Once she sees your new life is better than her new life, THEN the remorse might show up. But by then you'll be loving your new life so much you won't give a damn.


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## Marc878

Your life is what YOU make of it.

You can't control her and there are ways she can get around your surveillance. She's probably already gone underground.

You have nothing to lose at this point.

Go full exposure on the other man.

Work, his wife, etc. at least show them there are consequences to this behavior.


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## gridcom

Tomorrow is our Anniversary. 13 Years. I had grand ideas but I've ditched them. I think she is dreading it, so my "gift" to her is no big surprises. 

I've stopped pummeling her these last few days, but I haven't applied the 180. We took the kids to church this morning together. She had said she didnt want me going with her, but last night she "invited" me to go together, so sure....... I dont know if I mentioned this at all earlier, but I started going to church with her right after DDay. Originally, my attitude was that this was a big part of her life that I had no interest in and maybe it was something I could use in my life. I've been agnostic since getting burned out on the Catholic Church as a kid. I just never paid religion much attention after that, despite my wife going to church regularly our entire 19 years. I figured I'd go for her and the kids and maybe a good community would have good influence on me. And who knows? And funny enough, I've started reading the bible and it's a fascinating book. I'm into reading it, actually. 

In going to church with her, I had to ditch playing softball which I've done religiously (pun intended) since 2011. I actually run the local "league". The guys there know that I've been going to church and have been giving me grief about it, teasing me (lightheartedly). But, yesterday one of the wives came up to me and was like "So, your going to church huh? What did you do wrong?" as in what did I do to my wife to have to quit softball and join church. And, yeah, that was more consequences that I have to pay for her affair. I just kept my mouth shut, of course. But, it sucked that thats what people think.

I also found an e-mail exchange between my wife and I from almost exactly 2 years ago from DDay, which was me kind of accusing her or questioning her about maybe being interested in someone from her job, due to all the post work bar time she was investing in with her co-workers. She actually mentioned her AP when naming all the people in the group that go to the bar after work. She says in one exchange "What do you think, I'm going to hook up with one of these 22 year olds?" and I actually responded "Time will tell" And as the dust settles I see how this all went down. This "affair", if you describe affair as having inappropriate feelings, started not long after that. And so, this has been a slow build for 16 months? 18 months? And I think she battled with it, she's said so. And in that 16 months, my behavior wasn't always good, to say the least. I was deep into work, super workaholic, and I stopped thinking about my wife's happiness and didn't even notice that she wasnt happy. I mean, she wasnt unhappy all the time, but thinking back she was unhappy often. 

I resent the fact that she never said anything to me about how she was feeling. The funny thing is she DID say things to me, all the time. But, it was usually in anger and during an argument. So, in the heat of battle you say dumb things. God knows I did. I said the same things to her she was saying to me, including "Lets get a divorce", difference being I didn't mean it and she did. I never thought divorce was actually within the spectrum of possibilities. I don't know why I was that naive, but I absolutely didnt think it was possible. And that attitude was unhealthy. I just wish somewhere in all that time where she was aware she was having feelings for another man, she would have had the wherewithal to come to me while we weren't fighting and say "HEY DUMMY! Do this!" Or "maybe we should go to MC, for real" or "We have a problem here in our marriage and we should address it together" or "I love you and I am sad that you aren't loving me back" or something. She told me yesterday that she "prays over every little decision she makes" and I just think about how she was in quicksand for over a year, knew it, and never once did the right thing about it. Every time I think about that, a piece of my heart breaks. 

After church today we took the kids to an amusement park. Maybe we shouldn't be doing these things together with the kids, but I dont want to/know how to stop that. She is still (in my head) my #1 hanging buddy. She is my life companion. She definitely didn't want to be there with me, but we both had the day off and wanted to be with the girls. It sucked because it felt like the "new normal". 

We live in a little house and right now, neither one of us is moving out. For the time being, we are both stuck here. And, I dont know if I can "just talk to her about finances and kids schedules" and nothing else. I know the opinion is overwhelming that that version of my wife is gone. Which is really sad, still. My wife is an eccentric, quirky, peculiar type of person. She really is. And so am I. I know that sounds arrogant, maybe. But it is true. We both have an fascinatingly out of the ordinary outlook of the world. Different from each other but uniquely complimentary. Her quirks never get old to me. I guess this is what makes us "soul mates" if you believe in such a thing, which I certainly do. 

Anyway, a friend of ours came with us to the amusement park and he took video of my older daughter. He played it back tonight and I got extremely sad. This girl is so amazingly awesome. I could never hurt this girl, or knowingly cause her harm. But, I am terrified about how this separation of her parents is going to affect her. You can say that two parents, working together, can soften the blow. And that is true. But, there is one main ingredient that is going to be a huge problem going forward for my kids. MONEY.

It's one thing if you and your spouse get divorced and there is enough money to go around that your kids can continue to, more or less, have the life they are used to. But, when you are living hand to mouth, like we are, sh*t is going to change for these kids. We live in a small house in a nice little town, but my wife and I are in serious debt. We are climbing out of it, but it's still over 30k in debt. I had to cash out my profit sharing a few years ago and right now I have no retirement plan. We have no savings. It isnt like we live an extravagant lifestyle. We take the kids to Panera often. Or we'll get some ice cream. There's cheerleading and school supplies and new shoes and the occasional new bike and the community pool and friends birthday parties and the kid has been asking for a phone and all their friends have all nice things and my kids have "a few" nice things and I can go on and on and on. And two households means, at some point, us as parents are going to have to tell these kids that they can no longer have the simple pleasures in life like a movie from Target, or renting their violin for school lessons, simply because their stupid, idiotic parents couldnt keep it together for them. In fact , my wife wont even TRY to keep it together for them. So, the penalty is that these kids wont get their very plain needs met. And I know other kids have it worse, but I'm simply comparing my own children pre and post separation/divorce. I am legitimately concerned that there wont be food on the table. Literally. 

And that's with already taking into account that my wife will have to get a full time real job. And I'm having a hard time believing she really wants one. She isnt in the best health, she has Crohn's disease and gets headaches all the time. So, she is going to shlep to work day in and day out, have these kids met each afternoon off the bus by a string of baby sitters, come home at 6pm every night exhausted and run this place all by herself? How can this woman hate me that much to have to go through all that? Doesn't she know that is going to suck tremendously and get real old in about two weeks? And they'll see me on weekends or whatever and I'll be broke, too. And we wont even be able to do anything simple and fun like we do often now. I'm hoping we'll be able to afford the movies and a trip Applebee's as an entire weekends "financial events", but we honestly might not. Then they can come to my sad sack of a studio or one bedroom apartment where they can zone into the TV and think about how much their lives suck now because their stupid, idiotic parents couldn't keep it together.


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## LongWalk

Do you have any other exercise besides softball?


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## abart

she did all that sh*t and went to church?


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## gridcom

LongWalk said:


> Do you have any other exercise besides softball?


yeah, I work out just about every day. Either on an eliptical or lately taking 4 mile walks


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## turnera

So...
you are NOT doing the 180 because...you just can't get your act together enough (meaning, you just can't get mad enough - or past your fear of her leaving you enough - at your cheating wife to stop kissing her ass).

And instead of being mad at your wife, you have chosen to follow her around like a puppy, ditch what is important to YOU (softball) so that you can please HER and (I assume) make her want you again.

And when SHE - the cheater - tells YOU that she doesn't want you to go to church with her, you basically wait for her permission to do so.

When she goes out partying with her coworkers, all you do is whine about it, instead of telling to cut it out or lose you...

Tell me what the hell is wrong with this picture?


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## LongWalk

Is there an earlier service?


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## gridcom

Oh man, I just discovered Chump Lady. I've been reading her articles all night. She is on point. Bumming me out, but convincing.


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## abart

Do the 180 if you want to salvage anything in your marriage. go to church a different time ,there are more than one mars a day(if you want to go to church)


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## ConanHub

To painful and pathetic. The thread that is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

Grid,

I believe there is hope your marriage. You have given a pretty good account of yourself and your wife. Importantly, nothing you write about her suggests that she has a personality disorder. She is going to come out of being in love with OM if they are not meeting up. Remember it does not take horny in-love couples much time to have sexual intercourse. A passionate kiss only has to last 30 seconds and your wife's entire process of cleansing other man from her system will completely reversed. Just seeing other man's empty car may fill her with longing for him. That is why her job is a big threat to your marriage. Can you overcome this?

Yes, but it compounds the difficulty.

If you are reading Chump Lady, that will help you. She is acerbic and funny. TAM was where she started. There are people on TAM who have her wit and humanity, not me personally, but there some. They are watching you. They have studied human nature and they see you like a man holding the map the wrong way. You are doing so much right, but moving in the wrong direction because the map is upside down or sideways.

I was not raised Christian but the Bible is no doubt a good read. Use the time in Church to block out the rush of anxiety. There are parts of the Bible which call for adulterers to be put to death... read all the passages about marriage and think about them.

You can come out of those services stronger. If you are bored, find some of the best stories and retell them in your own words to your daughter.



> 1) Deuteronomy Chapter 24
> 1 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give [it] in her hand, and send her out of his house.
> 
> 2 And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's [wife].
> 
> 3 And [if] the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth [it] in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her [to be] his wife;
> 
> 4 Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that [is] abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee [for] an inheritance.


New York State Gov's website has info about divorce. You can save money by working together.



> Divorce mediation is an alternative to court litigation for resolving disputes that arise as two people separate their lives. A neutral third party called a “mediator” helps the couple to work through the issues of their divorce and reach a mutually agreeable settlement. Please note that mediation may not be safe or appropriate for individuals with a history or fear of domestic violence.
> How Do I Find a Divorce Mediator?
> 1) Ask court staff for a referral to a court-based mediation program, if your case is already in court. Most court programs offer parties a free, initial mediation session, followed by reduced-fee follow-up sessions.
> 2) Check with your local Community Dispute Resolution Center (CDRC). Most CDRCs offer free mediation of parenting disputes. For help to resolve financial or other aspects of divorce (e.g., support, property and debt division), couples can ask for a referral list of trained, divorce mediators who can take cases on a fee-for-service basis.
> 3) Contact the New York State Unified Court System's Collaborative Family Law Center. The Center offers free divorce mediation to qualifying couples living in New York City. If you and your spouse are eligible, you may get up to four, 90-minute sessions with program mediators (or six sessions, if you have children). Both spouses must agree to participate. Note: Referrals to divorce mediation will not be made in cases involving domestic violence or child abuse or where one spouse cannot locate the other.


If you keep your temper, do a modified 180 and demonstrate your determination to be respected, I think you can save your marriage. 

Listen to your wife. Be responsible and thoughtful. But no more anger or begging. If anything you need to be able to have sense humor. Watch Louis CK or Jeff Jefferies.

You need to be able to smile, even if a bit sadly. Your wife has to see that you are strong enough to move on without her and be all right. You need the thought to pop into her head: "Shyte, what if I divorce him and he keeps being this better guy and then some other woman gets the benefit. I fix him and then someone else gets him?"

She might not every fall back in love with you. Who knows. But she has very little incentive as long as she doesn't see you moving on.

By the way, your situation could be far worse. If your wife had no self discipline, she could have moved out or be spending nights out. She could have moved on to OM2. Your wife is fighting in her way. Turn the map the right way. Walk calmly in the right direction. She will either get it or not.


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## gridcom

LongWalk said:


> Just seeing other man's empty car may fill her with longing for him. That is why her job is a big threat to your marriage.


Yes, the job is still a major problem. She has to drive past his house (where they had sex) on the way home from work. I asked her to take a different route, she thought I was crazy. Meanwhile, we have to drive past my ex-GF's house when we visit my mother who lives an hour away. And when we drive past, I still look. And that was 20+ years ago.

She has admitted to still longing for him, and she actually said the feeling is "never going to go away" like she is in high school or something. This whole thing feels like I am dealing with a high schooler, to be honest.

Anyway, the job is a major issue. They work together at least once a week, but I suspect he's there at the place more than that. He lives less than a mile from the place and his second job (Starbucks) is across the street. 

She loves that job, but unforunately she is going to have to leave it if she wants to make a real effort to remove him from her life.


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## turnera

gridcom said:


> Anyway, the job is a major issue. They work together at least once a week, but I suspect he's there at the place more than that. He lives less than a mile from the place and his second job (Starbucks) is across the street.
> 
> She loves that job, but unforunately she is going to have to leave it if she wants to make a real effort to remove him from her life.


So what are you going to do about it?


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## gridcom

turnera said:


> So what are you going to do about it?


I dont think there is anything I can do about it. We are not talking about two people trying to reconcile here. Only I want to reconcile*. She wants to be with the other man, but understands that she cannot be with him and live in this house with me and the children. Even in her trance, she has enough respect for her children not to do that, although she didnt have enough respect for her children to betray them in the first place. And, as I said earlier, she cannot afford to move out right now, Or maybe she just isn't mentally prepared to do it. Or a combo of the two. 

This was definitely an "exit affair". She followed through from an emotional affair to a physical affair, came straight home minutes later, declared her love for another man, said she wanted to end our marriage, and more or less has stuck to that script this entire time. Early on, she was bugged out enough in her noggin that she was lying to see him, but it was always in public and maybe 3X max. Since then, her time has been 100% accounted for. That said, in her "exit affair", she really had no post sex EXIT PLAN. She really didn't think it through or have any plan at all and that is hurting me. It's like a cat killing a mouse. Kill the mouse already, don't slap it around for 30 minutes and torture the [email protected] thing.

Anyway, she doesn't see the need to leave her job because she doesn't want to detach from the other man. Somehow she's see some scenario where we don't live together anymore (completely unknown how or when that happens) and their love is strong enough for each other that they'll be waiting for each other on the other side. I don't know, it sounds like some modern day soap opera bodice-ripper. It seems like text book FOG to me, but I'm done arguing about it.

*In the meantime, this was a good weekend for me. I feel detached today. The Anniversary loomed large for quite some time, like a date on the calendar circled with a big black marker. Chump Lady, I think I've read like 50 articles by her in the last 24 hours. I feel like her commentary on these matter coincides with how I'm feeling right at the right time. What's funny though is my wife still makes small talk with me, even today, like we are buddies. I don't understand the thought process. It's like, you don't want to be here, you don't want to be around me, why are you coming into my zone and making small talk?


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## turnera

There IS something you can do about it - what we keep telling you to do. You can tell her you won't stay married to her as long as she's working with the OM.

Period.

And then see a lawyer when/if she refuses to look for a new job.

And it's not your problem if she can't afford to move out. She should have thought of that before she cheated.

You're getting nothing because you're too scared to stand up to her. You're too scared to lose her, so you do what scared people do - try to be nice enough that she'll say 'oh, all right, I'll stay with you, just stop begging.'

Do you understand that BECAUSE you won't stand up to her, you caused her to lose all respect for you?

She's making small talk because you are letting her have it HER way - waiting for OM to call for her while you are paying her way.


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## Chaparral

Ok, heres the deal. MRriages can be saved. If you have read othe rthreads here you know that. Why then bave you done nothing that is required to save your marriage.. In fact, you have done just the opposite. She wants out and youre greaseing the skids.


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## Lostinthought61

here is what i would respond to people who ask about going to church, when they think you did something wrong, you should look at them dead seriously and what makes you think it was me that did wrong...and then walk away.

you should not wear that badge of dishonor that is her to wear and for others to figure it out...you did not thing wrong so why burden yourself with that....she shoudl care the shame...i think you are going about this all wrong.


----------



## gridcom

turnera said:


> There IS something you can do about it - what we keep telling you to do. You can tell her you won't stay married to her as long as she's working with the OM.
> 
> Period.
> 
> And then see a lawyer when/if she refuses to look for a new job.
> 
> And it's not your problem if she can't afford to move out. She should have thought of that before she cheated.
> 
> You're getting nothing because you're too scared to stand up to her. You're too scared to lose her, so you do what scared people do - try to be nice enough that she'll say 'oh, all right, I'll stay with you, just stop begging.'
> 
> Do you understand that BECAUSE you won't stand up to her, you caused her to lose all respect for you?
> 
> She's making small talk because you are letting her have it HER way - waiting for OM to call for her while you are paying her way.


Well, I do think before all that happens a "cooling down" period is going to be beneficial for both of us. I have been on an emotional roller coaster and today marks 9 weeks. I have had very lucid moments and moments where I am just absolutely beside myself bananas. Betrayal at the hands of the one you love the most. It can make you lose your mind. I wouldnt wish it on anyone.

I did talk to a lawyer a few weeks back and he welcomed me back, but now is where $$$$$ becomes a problem, because right now I dont have any. I need to get my car fixed to drive to a lawyer before I can pay a lawyer. Not literally, but you get the idea. And that is not making excuses, that's just the reality of my situation right now. My employment is strange in that I get a salary and then a XMas bonus in Dec. And that XMas bonus can sometimes be 100% of my yearly salary, all in one shot. So, we pay off some debt and widdle it down slowly, etc. If I am going to sink thousands of dollars into divorce, it cant be until December. 

Until then, you can call it the 180, but to me in common language I just don't feel like fighting anymore. All of the regretful things she's going to have to live with she has already done or is in the process of doing. And when she forgets all the shameful stuff she did, our kids will be there to remind her.

For me, I do need to do work on being a better me for me. And I am doing it. The thing about me that was so blind to her frustration with me, that thing that made me a d*ck sometimes, this is what I am trying to get at. I don't know how to "remove it" but I am trying. IC helps. I wish it was daily, honestly.


----------



## Be smart

Stop thinking about money,it is your life you should think about !!!

File for Divorce and let her go. Dont fight for her,she is not your "problem" anymore,she is OMs problem.

Ignore her,just talk about Divorce.

There is a lot of woman there and you will find one who will respect you and honor you,just like you would her.

Stay strong and file for D,there is nothing here to fight for.


----------



## Average Joe

gridcom, put it on a credit card.


----------



## gridcom

average joe said:


> gridcom, put it on a credit card.


all maxed out.


----------



## Evinrude58

I haven't read all of this thread, but here's what I've gleaned. The wife goes and f's another dude, telling the betrayed husband it's all his fault for how he treated her. She does this to make herself feel better by putting all the blame on the supposed "bad husband". He bites the hook she casts out every time about the blame thing, not consciously realizing that there are no perfect husbands. My ex wife did the same to me, so I know exactly what he's going through. My opinion: It's her fault, her guilt, her wayward desires, her decision to betray her husband and family, etc. She is not alone, there's lots of men and women that do these things. She has NO REMORSE. By his own admission, she wants to leave the marriage. DOn't be suckered in by your own conscience into thinking that she is the only person on the planet that "gets you". Obviously she doesn't feel the same about you or you wouldn't be in this situation. Cut her loose, get better control of your finances, and find another woman to share your life with. I was just as bad and blinded as you at one time. Let me tell you for a fact: These days, it is impossibly easy to find a large volume of women to date. They are attractive, and have all sorts of good characteristics. Sure, it's hard to find a good one, but you didn't find a good one to start off with or you wouldn't be here. kick her down the road, spend your energy being happy with yourself and what you have, and if you want to, look for another woman. They'll probably come to you once you're divorced and it's widely known. You don't have to be this victim, this weak and defenseless person. I was, and it didn't feel good. Get divorced, find a new woman that's worth having. People like your wife are just going to get rid of you eventually, either way. Save your dignity and kick her out. 
JMO,
Evinrude


----------



## ConanHub

ConanHub said:


> To painful and pathetic. The thread that is.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Elaboration.

Your wife is too pathetic and your responses to her behavior are too painful.

I understand your situation but you don't have to be so powerless.

If you can't do anything financially until December then work your ass off improving yourself and your life separate from your disgusting wife.

You need to kick your own ass into shape and not give a flying f about your wife.

You can improve substantially and might even find opportunities to improve your financial situation as well.

Fear is your enemy. You are only stuck as long as you allow yourself to be chained.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

gridcom said:


> I did talk to a lawyer a few weeks back and he welcomed me back, but now is where $$$$$ becomes a problem, because right now I don't have any.


Here you go.

Solved it for you.

https://www.rocketlawyer.com/divorce.rl

Now go print these papers out and hand them to her.


----------



## LongWalk

Grid,

I think you can save your marriage, despite the obvious danger of your wife's job. Now that you have gone through plenty of Chump Lady, you ought to feel inspired. I don't think your wife is anywhere near the worst cheaters who appear on TAM and you are willing to see that it was an exit affair.

So, get the do-it-yourself divorce forms for NY state and sit down with your wife and fill them out, splitting everything 50/50. In this discussion be polite, thoughtful and totally under control. Show no irritation or impatience. Do it when the two of you have time. Say Saturday evening. It will cost little to file if you do the work yourself. You can tell your wife that you want her to be happy because you love her. But you cannot live with her while she is longing for another life. Whether it is OM or freedom or the freedom try OM, it is not essential that she have it completely figured out. You have it figured out. You don't want a wife who feels she is a prisoner with a phone tracker chastity belt. If you can disarmingly laugh about all of this that lets her know that you still love her but you are not so weak as to allow her to have you in limbo, she may just begin moving towards you instead of away.

Often women who have checked out never return, but you have a 23.7 percent chance of success. 

Filling out the divorce papers peacefully and drawing up a plan to split... maybe just before Christmas a good time. If she says no that would be bad for the kids, then suggest Thanksgiving. Tell her you can split the leftover turkey if she gets the bigger side of the wishbone. Make her laugh. Ask her what divorce timetable works for her.

Are you still sleeping the same bed?

Do a set of push ups and sit ups before you get in.

Machiavelli would have advised you to dress differently. If you have a beard, shave it off. If you're clean shaven, wear stubble. Money's tight? Go to Walmart's and buy black jeans, a black shirt, dress like Johnny Cash. Don't explain yourself. Smile. Court your wife as you walk her towards the divorce.

And if by some chance your wife jumps your bone, don't be all sappy and grateful afterwards, You always expected her to come round but don't ruin it with relationship talk.

Oh yeah, another great thread. Help me out here, what is the name of the guy who was in the restaurant industry whose wife wanted to try OM and got him to move out and then once they started the divorce process (and she tried OM) she changed her mind because he accept the end of his marriage and found another woman. That guy wanted to save his marriage but had to find a new miracle love. Kulors, that's it. Read his thread.


----------



## gridcom

LongWalk said:


> Oh yeah, another great thread. Help me out here, what is the name of the guy who was in the restaurant industry whose wife wanted to try OM and got him to move out and then once they started the divorce process (and she tried OM) she changed her mind because he accept the end of his marriage and found another woman. That guy wanted to save his marriage but had to find a new miracle love. Kulors, that's it. Read his thread.


I am reading Kolors thread right now. It's like a horrible car crash in sllllow motion. This has a happy ending? Jeez, I hope so. Right now, it's looking might bleak for ole' Kolors.

Yes, we sleep in the same bed. Opposite ends of a king size bed. There is an invisible man sleeping between us!


----------



## farsidejunky

LongWalk said:


> Grid,
> 
> I think you can save your marriage, despite the obvious danger of your wife's job. Now that you have gone through plenty of Chump Lady, you ought to feel inspired. I don't think your wife is anywhere near the worst cheaters who appear on TAM and you are willing to see that it was an exit affair.
> 
> So, get the do-it-yourself divorce forms for NY state and sit down with your wife and fill them out, splitting everything 50/50. In this discussion be polite, thoughtful and totally under control. Show no irritation or impatience. Do it when the too of you have time. Say Saturday evening. It will cost little to file if you do the work yourself. You can tell your wife that you want her to be happy because you love her. But you cannot live with her while she is longing for another life. Whether it is OM or freedom or the freedom try OM, it is not essential that she have it completely figured out. You have it figured out. You don't want a wife who feels she is a prisoner with a phone tracker chastity belt. If you can disarmingly laugh about all of this that lets her know that you still love her but you are not so weak as to allow her to have you in limbo, she may just begin moving towards you instead of away.
> 
> Often women who have checked out never return, but you have a 23.7 percent chance of success.
> 
> Filling out the divorce papers peacefully and drawing up a plan to split... maybe just before Christmas a good time. If she says no that would be bad for the kids, then suggest Thanksgiving. Tell her you can split the leftover turkey if she gets the bigger side of the wishbone. Make her laugh. Ask her what divorce timetable works for her.
> 
> Are you still sleeping the same bed?
> 
> Do a set of push ups and sit ups before you get in.
> 
> Machiavelli would have advised you to dress differently. If you have a beard, shave it off. If you're clean shaven, wear stubble. Money's tight? Go to Walmart's and buy black jeans, a black shirt, dress like Johnny Cash. Don't explain yourself. Smile. Court your wife as you walk her towards the divorce.
> 
> And if by some chance your wife jumps your bone, don't be all sappy and grateful afterwards, You always expected her to come round but don't ruin it with relationship talk.
> 
> Oh yeah, another great thread. Help me out here, what is the name of the guy who was in the restaurant industry whose wife wanted to try OM and got him to move out and then once they started the divorce process (and she tried OM) she changed her mind because he accept the end of his marriage and found another woman. That guy wanted to save his marriage but had to find a new miracle love. Kulors, that's it. Read his thread.


Kolors

ETA: Just when I thought I was going to quote a thread to the thread quoting master (Longwalk), turns out I really just jumped the gun... lol


----------



## farsidejunky

gridcom said:


> I am reading Kolors thread right now. It's like a horrible car crash in sllllow motion. This has a happy ending? Jeez, I hope so. Right now, it's looking might bleak for ole' Kolors.
> 
> Yes, we sleep in the same bed. Opposite ends of a king size bed. There is an invisible man sleeping between us!


It is happy, just not with his wife.


----------



## Voltaire2013

gridcom said:


> I am reading Kolors thread right now. It's like a horrible car crash in sllllow motion. This has a happy ending? Jeez, I hope so. Right now, it's looking might bleak for ole' Kolors.
> 
> Yes, we sleep in the same bed. Opposite ends of a king size bed. There is an invisible man sleeping between us!


You should re-read your own and hope you don't have a defective air bag. 

Sorry Bro, you don't seem to heed the collective wisdom that is here. Male & Female.

I wish you well. 

Cheers,
V(13)


----------



## turnera

Here's the bottom line: strong men turn women on; weak men turn women off.

Are you gonna be a strong man or a weak man?


----------



## LongWalk

JLD, whom I don't always agree with but am fond of nonetheless, might be good for this thread.

Turnera is right. You have to be strong now.

Kolors did what he could. His ex unhappy WW/WAW reaped a bitter harvest. Kolors realized that he had lost himself in the relationship. He allowed her moods to depress him. They were very co-dependent. He lost strength because she knocked him down in life. She was not a bad or evil person. However, she did not realize that being supportive and faithful were her responsibilities. When she began to fantasize about other men as the solution to her unhappiness, she jettisoned him. This forced him to rediscover his character. The strength that was buried in the dead leaves of life.

As he pulled himself back into shape, she had a window of opportunity to fall back in love with him; they had had passion at one time. She did sort of make the discovery of her feelings but only after she let OM in, biologically speaking. She told him that dating was okay during their separation. He knew she went through with her ride a new model experiment. He moved on. By the time she regretted it he had found someone better.

Road Scholar's wife gave him no nookie for 6 months after the affair. When she saw in his eyes that he was done, she filled out the forms for emergency hysterical bonding. She cried and begged. All uncharacteristic for her since she was proud and a bit selfish. She actually became a better person after they repaired their marriage. By better I mean wiser. I suspect that she is now the sort of person who can advise someone else to work on their marriage and to see the qualities of their loyal spouse. Road Scholar's thread is also instructive in your case because her work was also an issue.

He was Catholic but his wife was not. Perhaps she came to appreciate the identity he had in his faith. 

I can see letting your wife continue her job for the time being. Sometimes you have to pick your battles.

Your wife is refusing to let morning erections or anything of the sort press up against her. That is actually good. She is sending you a really clear "fvck you" message. But it is an honest expression of her feelings. You don't want to make love to her and perceive her not being into it and this saves you that horrible experience.

That is why you need to file for D asap to let her know that you aren't going to be slicing the turkey with her. 

You wife is very lucky. She cheated and you are still willing to stay married to her. You must disabuse her of the notion that you are some booby prize for the unlucky MILF that she happens to be..


----------



## gridcom

Today is the 5th day of what I guess I'd call a modified 180. Modified in the sense that we are interacting like friends/housemates would. No talk about anything related to us; past, present, or future. I hate the idea of applying a "tactic" that is both counter intuitive and insincere. She has IC tonight. I have IC tomorrow. I am in no rush to do anything although I do appreciate the Rocket Lawyer link very much. Sooner or later, I can see that coming in handy. But, for now, this silence and calm is just fine for me. I am enjoying all of the Chump Lady articles, and there are a ton of them. I read a lot on here about men being advised to "get back to being who you are" and stop being this begging, sad, defeated person. And I am done begging and being defeated (although still sad). The issue with that is the person I was, especially for the last 5 years, was a prick! Not always, but enough to flatline the love my wife had for me. I was a workaholic and I can never do that again. I haven't been working much these past 9 weeks, for obvious reasons (Work from home). I am just this week and last week starting to get into 4th gear when I was in 6th gear for much of 2015. But, beyond this whole incident, I see how the laser focus on work was really creating havoc all around me. I am real good and dialing in on a task and getting it done, all other things be damned. It has affected all aspects of my life. There was a time where I did many things solo, enjoyed my little things, and little by little I dropped all of it. I became work-work-work and my spare time was my kids and really no time for my wife. No time for just her or her and me, without the kids. Which is strange because I really do enjoy her company. I take a ton of business trips to music festivals and I should have taken her to more of those. I went to New Orleans Jazz Fest earlier this year by myself. I should have INSISTED she come with me. I went to Bonnaroo. I should have insisted she come. I just took her for granted. "She loves me. She'll always love. She's fine." 

And now her emotions are fogged up in another person and it sucks for me because, you know, I blew it. And it sucks for her because she is going to have to go through complete hell to be with that person, regardless if I move out of the way or not. Stop Signs and Red Lights all around her. Someone earlier commented that there are plenty of women out there and I am already finding that to be true. A friend of mine who knows about this is already offering to hook me up with another lady. And I joined match.com and took a look around and there were hundreds of woman who fit my criteria. I was pretty amazed. Then I deleted my profile hahaha. That's bad karma. And there is one lady friend of mine on the Facebook who I reached out to who has been through a few incidents with her ex-husband (married, broke up for 2 years, got back together and had another kid, then divorced) looking for a neutral female perspective (haven't seen her in over 20 years) and she has been inviting me to her city and, uh, she's quite a pretty lady. So, it softens the blow knowing I wont be lonely. 

Trouble is my wife is my one and only. I know those who are still following this thread just slapped their hands to their head in amazement.

In reading Kolors thread, money becomes such a major issue. Similar to my situation, his wife wants him out but when it comes to putting numbers on paper, it becomes apparent that everybody in that house is going to have to go under major changes. His daughter gets pulled out of sports, his cable has to get turned off, along with wi-fi. He has to tell his daughter that X-Mas is going to be light this year, etc. The misery becomes palpable as opposed to internal. You can see it. This is what I was saying earlier. Why should my kids suffer because their stupid parents cant keep it together? To this moment, I don't think my wife understands the financial end of this at all. I dont think she wants to. She has tunnel vision and anything that detracts from her own end goal, she's choosing to ignore. That includes loved ones and confidants who are trying to appeal to her. Dozens of articles and testimonials saying TURN AROUND WOMAN! And that also includes a hard look at the money once we live separately. It's IMPOSSIBLE unless she lands a real job that makes her in the 60k+ range. Unless, of course, she moves him into my house or she sells the house and moves closer to her family or even in with family members. Huge Shi**y changes for my kids. 

I think the issue that my wife is having with me is that although she see's that I am trying to make changes to multiple facets of my life, she is unsure or maybe even convinced I can't make the changes last. That sooner or later I will fall into the same patterns. First of all, knowing that I could potentially have to go through this again I can say THAT ALONE will make the changes permanent. HONOR THY WIFE. GOT IT!!!!!!
She has much power to make your world hell on earth!! UNDERSTOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

Seriously though, to those who arent sick of me and want to kick me in the a$$, what do you say about that? How does one change FOR GOOD? I am trying to do many things at once, absorb IC, absorb the bible, absorb the testimonials and comments here at TAM, absorb Chump Lady, absorb books about communication, pick up the load on running the house like cleaning , dishes, chores, lose some weight, smell better...... It's a lot to take on and hope that any of it actually cements itself inside you, no? There was a book on communication I read at the very beginning of this whole thing that I think was the most important. It was very "this happens, you should do this" etc. I think IC happens for the rest of my life, honestly. I need to tell someone about my week and them to tell me I am headed down the wrong road. if I had that person 5 years ago, none of this would have happened. I need someone to call me out on my attitude sometimes.

Yes, I know.... "SHUT UP ALREADY, FILE FOR THE D! WATCH YOUR WIFE BEG YOU TO STAY!"


----------



## anchorwatch

No Grid. Dont expect her to beg. 

D or not. 

There are no fairy tale endings, no perfect endings.


----------



## happy as a clam

gridcom said:


> "SHUT UP ALREADY, FILE FOR THE D! WATCH YOUR WIFE BEG YOU TO STAY!"


Ok, this ^ ^ ^.

(You said it, not me )


----------



## gridcom

Oh, another thing. Last night she wanted to show me something on her phone. She went to show me but I couldn't read it, so I instinctively reached for the phone out of her hand to read it and she wouldn't let the phone go. It was subtle. My first thought was "OK, she has something on her phone she doesn't want me to see" and my second thought was "Oh, go ahead. Go be stupid. I dont care. You are a fool"

It really only slightly bothered me whereas just a week ago I think I would have insisted on seeing her phone. PROGRESS.


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## turnera

You never know how things are going to turn out, ok? Many people move apart, even divorce, and then realize they've learned a lot and now make better partners, and get back together.


----------



## LongWalk

You should read Bagdon's thread.

Nobody is saying that filing for divorce will make your wife beg to stay married.

Divorce takes time. It gives people a reason to concentrate on their marriage while it still exists.

There is nothing that says you cannot succeed just by being patient and holding up your end for 6 months. People talk about the fog, but there are other words. Limerence, infatuation, crush, etc. all come down to the same thing, some emotional connection with a member of the opposite sex. It will wear off. Your wife's love for you wore off. It took a long time.

We don't know if there is love left for you. You must have a better idea than us. But at the end of the day, maybe your wife doesn't know either. Filing for divorce may just lead to divorce. If your wife loathes you, coming back is going to be hard.

If you think your failure was that you took your wife for granted, find some band that you know she'd like and tell her you have two tickets and ask her if she wants to go.


----------



## Evinrude58

Just like me, you are coming up with excuses for your wife's bad behavior. You worked too hard, you didn't spend enough time with her, you only spent free time doing stuff with the kids, you don't think even if you show change that it will "stick", etc. etc. Here's the thing: sure, you weren't perfect, sure you could have done this and that. Was that the cause for your wife doing what she has done? NO, NO, NO!!!!!!! She chose to go look elsewhere, rather than doing things that brought her closer to you. This is her choice. She promised this would never be the case that she would choose someone else over you, and has shown that she is not intending to keep that promise. What's left? 
I loved my wife, she admits she always knew that. She knows I would have done anything to keep her. She doesn't care. I don't exist to her anymore except as a source of money. I hope this isn't the case with you, but it probably is.
I know how you feel, I have all kinds of regret over minor things I did and didn't do during my marriage. But your marriage is a thing of the past and you will be better off when you accept it. I hope I am wrong, that my situation is different from yours. One thing is for sure, though, a person does what THEY want to do. It's out of your control. 
I truly hope your wife turns around and sees what a special, valuable thing she has in a faithful husband like you. Just know that it probably won't happen.
Good luck either way. I know how much it hurts!
evinrude.


----------



## dubsey

Just my opinion, a few years of financial hardship while you re-establish your life is a lot better on your kids than another 20 years of giving them the wrong idea of what a marriage should look like. They'll be doomed to repeat it - your daughter - she'll take your wife's behavior as a model, and she'll look for a guy just like you who will put up with it. Don't think she won't.

Whatever route you choose, good luck to you.


----------



## ConanHub

Hahaha! You're actually making me laugh buddy!!

Hey. In all your self improvement, make sure it is for yourself. I am beginning to, admire?, no not that strong, but I am starting to like you.

Also remember in all your strivings to be a good man and overcome your shortcomings, a wife who is munching on some young guy's sausage is far less desirable than a neglectful one.

You were a neglectful husband by your own account but you didn't forget where your dyck belongs.

In your quest, remember that cheating trumps pretty much all the other shytty behavior one can engage in with marriage.

How much older is your wife than her walking dildo? Sheesh!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

Maybe when you are lying in bed with that enormous distance between you, there is nothing to do but say, "talk to me". Just listen.


----------



## gridcom

LongWalk said:


> Maybe when you are lying in bed with that enormous distance between you, there is nothing to do but say, "talk to me". Just listen.


The issue with that, I've come to understand, is that while she is in her fog/denial/addiction/high school-like-puppy-love phase, nothing she says has any validity. We had a fight a few weeks ago, maybe a month ago now, in front of her sister. Her sister and her are very tight and her sister thinks she is not doing the right thing at all. And my wife is ranting and raving and coming from such a weird place in her head, that my sister in law had this look of....I dont know what it was. Amazement? Horror?...... it was like we were dealing with someone we didn't even know. Remember, this is the same woman who insisted that her affair was over even though she hung out in a dark parking lot with the AP alone on two consecutive nights just 4 nights earlier. 

Talk to me? 

Please. Don't.


I like my approach now of just shutting up and hanging on. Let her make her move. Either be the fool you are dressing up as and go be with the guy or get over the guy and we can re-address all of this then.


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## ThreeStrikes

What advice do you think Chumplady would give you?

I did what you are doing after my ex's 1st affair. After about 9 months or so, the affair officially ended. The reason it ended had nothing to do with the ex wanting to be with me, tho.

We had about 6 months of rugsweeping "normalcy", and then affair #2 and #3 happened.

Wake up! Your wife isn't into you anymore!

If money wasn't an issue, what would you do?


----------



## ConanHub

You taking Harley's approach it looks like.

Be careful with that one. Plan A can cause far more damage than is even reasonable.

If you aren't then read up on it because it is pretty close to what you are doing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## gridcom

ConanHub said:


> You taking Harley's approach it looks like.
> 
> Be careful with that one. Plan A can cause far more damage than is even reasonable.
> 
> If you aren't then read up on it because it is pretty close to what you are doing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm sorry, what is Plan A?

EDIT: Sorry, found it on Marriage Builders. I wish I was still in the mode of sending articles to my wife. This one is quite a doozy. Yes, I am doing Plan A (even if I didn't know it). Dr. Harley recommends outing the affair to the whole world as a part of Plan A. I don't think that's quite what I want to do. A key handful of people know, but I actually haven't told a soul about this in a few weeks now.


----------



## JohnA

You are healing. The changes you are making, many will benefit every relationship in your life. These changes are not for her. Tell her, when she can hear you, I made these changes because I will not allow myself to experience this pain and grief because of me. I will not allow myself to hurt those i love because of my flaws. They are not for you. 

When she sees that maybe you can discuss changes for her. 

I don't think you can accept her back though. Why, you are right to accept and own your issues, but she has chosen the path of adultery. This is all on her. Do you really think she is strong enough to accept this. Not just say the words. Say them without adding a but! You know there has Been enough pain, you don't need to beat her up about it. Just make your changes and move forward with regret and some kindness. She does not get to build her happiness on your loss and pain.


----------



## ConanHub

Well exposure, far and wide, is actually one component I agree with as well as confronting OM.

Exposure is simply fantastic for withering an affair.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub

Plan A without exposure is quite simply drawn out suicide.

Don't kill yourself attempting plan A without exposure.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

Exposure kills affairs.

Ignore it at your own peril.


----------



## gridcom

I dont know. I feel like the right people know, enough people know..... I can expose to her (and his) job, but that is not a card I want to play right now. Not because I fear her reaction, but because I kind of have faith she can figure all of this out on her own? Seems like a last resort kind of play. And when it comes to friends and family, like I said, the right people know and to add anyone else to the mix (at this point) would just be me being mean for the sake of it. 

I feel like I want to quote a passage from the bible right now, but then I'd have to go a jump off a bridge.


----------



## turnera

Who are these right people?


----------



## gridcom

turnera said:


> Who are these right people?


On her side: both parents, sister and husband and her niece (who sent her flowers with a card that read "dont be an a$$hole"), all of her closest friends, a co-worker who approves of the affair, a co-worker who doesn't, her pastor, and a confidant at her church. There may be more. Who knows.

On my side: mother, sister, brother in law, aunt, 3 close friends, 2 random work peers who work for other companies I do business with, a friend here in the town we live in, an old male friend, an old female friend  (discussed above), my assistant, one other co-worker who is a friend, and one client manager who I had to come clean to because he was about to fire me from said client for not getting the work done.

And our 10 year old daughter.


----------



## turnera

Yep, good enough.


----------



## gridcom

Chump Lady all night until my eyes close.


----------



## LongWalk

Gridcom,

We are all rooting for you.
There is a lot positive in your writing.
You have sense of humor. That is why folks like Chump Lady. She gives voice to the indignation at all the absurdity of infidelity.

In the land that is TAM you are a lucky guy. Honcho is our buddy. He lives in a small town where everyone knows his WW is mentally ill. She exposes herself. At first the police took her seriously. Her lawyer and the judge took her seriously. It has gone way beyond the hurt of her cheating. He cannot help her. She believes he is persecuting her. At the same time her brain is hardwired to depend on him. Every time his divorce should happen she invents a new issue to prevent the divorce from going through; there is something to fight over: a fish tank, stuffed animals, his shotguns, the lawn mower, mould in attic. Even her greedy lawyer is now almost broken by her mental illness. And still the fvcking divorce is not done.

We read about Honcho's problems and we know he could be happy with another woman, but the mad woman who was his wife can pop at anytime. If he begins to date she could join them for coffee. Should Honcho pull up his roots and move to Canada to start over. We don't know what to tell him. Infidelity is like symptom of an imperfect universe.

We watch those nature documentary clips on YouTube, the ungulates are crossing the plain and in grass there are lions and in the water crocodiles. Why does this or that critter start the day just fine and then end up a TV star? Life is Darwinian.

One of my favorites is David Attenborough narrating these beautiful albatross young are hatched in the short summers by some lonely distant sea. Albatrosses can live a very long time. They fly so beautifully. There we are watching the beginning of their lives by grey and choppy waters. They start flapping their wings hard. Feels good. They start to fly but it's the first time and they only make a couple of yards in to the sea, where for millennium the sharks have gathered for the albatross first day flying feast. Each of the birds sees sharks for the first time. Some are in sharks mouths for a moment put manage to get free. Some just disappear. Others cartwheel from the teeth. Suddenly they start to half fly skipping along the surface and are free. It's so dramatic that Attenborough filmed it twice on the rocky shores of two God forsaken places, sort of repeating himself with different colonies.

You are in a drama that has been repeated over and over in human history. **** sapiens like monogamy but not too much. Now there is some anthropologist who has quantified the grandmother effect. MIL and mom take care of the kiddos so that the couple can bang more and stay in love and have more kids. These grandmothers made monogamy more successful. That is old ladies last a long time. Their longevity serves a purpose. We can see that exposure of infidelity to grandmothers saves marriages because mom and MIL's selfish genes tell them to frown at daughters who stray for bums who are going to disrupt the lives of their grandchildren.

If you are an alcoholic, abusive jerk, those around your wife are going to encourage her to move on asap. If you are a good guy, they are going to tell her she is fvcking up.

Chump Lady had to deal with an utter selfish POS cheater. Your wife is not borderline personality disordered. But as long as she is in love with OM, imagining how nice it would be to be with him, she might as well count as mad. Rubbing her face in the affair everyday is not going to make her fall back in love with you. But right now you are standing outside of tent, feeding the mosquitoes and she won't let you in. At some point you have to say it's enough, either she lets you in or you are leaving.

Can you discuss divorce with her in a way that conveys two essential messages. One, you have self respect, you will not lie in bed night after night without communication. And second, she has to choose. If her perception is that there is no worth in your marriage, that she is done with you, you will not make it back on a diet of remorseless silent treatment.

You having a sense of humor will give her a reason to climb off her high horse, but you cannot simply wait. There is nothing attractive about the guy who simply waits with a sad face.


----------



## Be smart

Here you go again. It is not your fault and your Marriage will never survive.Your wife will never have respect for you until she realizes her mistakes.

I dont know how you can be in the same bed with your wife knowing that she spent the day with the OM !!! 

Nobody is perfect,there is no perfect husband or wife,but your wife put all blame on you.
It is your fault because she found herself on OM penis,come on man,you are smarter then that.

I feel sorry for you because you are in the fog not your wife.
She knows what she wants and she got it. She has OM on the side and she has you as someone who will pay the bilds and keep the house secure.


----------



## gridcom

Thanks LongWalk. Again.

I am not walking around with a sad face right now. Today will mark Day 6 where we simply haven't addressed the the elephant in the room. This is the longest we've gone in 9+ weeks. Part of that is me coming to understand that the more I put energy on fixing her, the less energy I have on fixing me. And that wont solve the greater issue on both ends, right? She is a woman of faith, and I am a man new to faith, coming to understand faith. And with that in mind, I need to let her faith (and common sense) take care of her. 

I can't stay silent indefinitely, but I sure as hell can go much longer than the 5 days we've gone so far. I know it's helping me. I needed a truce. War all day can really tire you out! I've come to grips that this marriage more likely than not doesn't have a happy ending, and this is just a long goodbye. And I've also come to grips with the fact that if my wife can't make the right decision, if she can't get herself grounded, if she can't absorb all that she is reading and being told, then maybe she truly is a fool and in the long run, I am much better off. I just feel really bad for my children. How much punishment and abuse can I take? Whatever the answer is, it's more than I want to because I really don't want my kids to have to live through this or have to deal with this. 

Be Smart, to answer your response, she is not currently seeing this guy. She does see him for an hour at work on Fridays, but they don't even work in the same room. I'm not trying to minimize the effect being in the same building is having on her, but to say we are sleeping in the same bed when she "spent the day with the OM" is inaccurate. If that were the case, we wouldn't be sleeping in the same bed, trust me.

I honestly feel bad for my wife. I really do. I've known her since 1991, when she was 17 years old. I fell in love with her and I remember her reciprocating that love back to me (in 1996) as one of the single greatest things that has ever happened to me. Whatever success I have had I do largely owe to her motivating me to be the man she hoped I'd be. It just came at a price. I look at the whole 19 year relationship and even though this incident is fresh in the rearview mirror and I don't want to downplay how awful it is, she has otherwise scored high marks across the board. Is this a true revelation of her character? I don't know. Maybe. She made a grave, life altering mistake at my expense.

She has certainly been pretty awful these last 9 weeks. She is in full hate mode and partially because she knows I am doing some things right (finally!!) but she has checked out of the marriage. So, she is more than likely saying "Motherf*cker, this guy doesn't quit!" And she probably regrets not having come to me before the affair in a way that would have been motivating enough to me to make the changes I am making now. What she essentially did was drop a grenade in my lap (and my kids lap) and say "deal with this". She has a lot of misplaced anger in her right now, but I know her well enough to know that once that anger subsides, she is going to be dealing with a tremendous amount of guilt and shame and sorrow. As the day's go by and the silence between us rolls on, I quite sure she can hear the troops of guilt, shame, and sorrow marching into her psyche. And that anger is going to turn inward. Rightfully

Like everyone says and it's been written, the emotional attachment to this guy will subside as long as she sticks to the boundaries. She thinks it'll last forever. We all just shake our heads. I'm right there shaking my head too. I'm sure every time she reads somewhere or is told by someone that what she is experiencing with this man is more of an addiction, or a rush, in her head she denies that is the case. I'm sure she's convinced that in her specific situation, it's DIFFERENT. This affair is UNIQUE. Of course, right?

The job is a problem and she'll have to leave it one way or the other. I'm not sure she realizes this. Again, she hasn't put numbers to paper to see how we all live with two households. It's a part of this she doesn't want to address because she knows that exercise is going to be frustrating and very much not be in synch with her end goal. 

And lastly, this all goes back to the kids for me. They have a daddy who wants to be full time, who is strong enough to weather this storm. These kids are everything to me. It's puzzling to me that she isnt clearly thinking of them first. The fog and addiction has made her very selfish. Again, she's going to look back on this and have to live with herself. 

I'm in no hurry. I'd sure like to get laid!!!!!!!!!!!!! But, I'm in no hurry here. Time is my asset. There will be no shortcuts. Any reconciliation between us, if it were even to be attempted, would need to include a plan. No rug sweeping. It gets rebuilt the right way or it doesn't get rebuilt. There will be no "Ah, lets forget it ever even happened" She may not be strong enough to weather this sh*tstorm. She may very likely be a coward who bails. But, then her kids will always be a reminder to her that she was a coward.

I've told her a few times. The man I am today is more of a man than the man you fell in love with. The man I'll be tomorrow is more than the man I am today.


----------



## weightlifter

Good enough list of exposure.
Im not a big fan of possibly getting a WS fired when D may happen. Not for nice, but for alimony considerations.

BTW. You dont see it but many of us old timers here do.
You turned a corner. You're still near the bottom of the valley, but beginning the long slow crappy slog up the other side.


----------



## cbnero

Expose her if you havent.
File the D now if you havent.

Let her go. You are experiencing a shipwreck and Crazy is at the helm. YOU need to take control and you better do it now or there will be no survivors. Didn't read it all to see if you have kids, but if you do, stand up for them if not yourself! You know this is not right. Look at you situation from a 3rd party standpoint and advise yourself. Then take action.

She needs to fix herself. Not you fix her Fix yourself. 

I promise you the scariest step is the first one. Once you accept what YOU control, which is yourself and your actions, then the rest will be much easier and you will come through just fine. I can tell you firsthand it is unlikely she will change. Especially if you are trying to nice her back. Huge mistake.

You don't need to be mean. You need to disconnect. As soon as she realizes you don't care things might change. But then you dictate the terms. You can't fake it though, it's like a dog smelling fear. You need to do the work and really change yourself. Then you will find yourself with a rich fulfilling life, with or without her.

Best of luck! And by the way, you are fortunate to be here now vs finding this out late in the game like I did. Many people do hear the message, but most people don't follow it because they are scared. Here is hoping you step up and do it.


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## gridcom

I went to IC this morning, Third one with this lady. The first two focused on my marriage and basically me just blah blah blah-ing and her collecting my insurance money (not really, but kinda)

Today I asked her simply : "How do you make changes to your makeup and make them stick?" I don't want to lose what makes me ME, but I definitely want to shed a part of me that makes me "un-husband-able".... Her answer was what I was hoping for. There is no pill. You cant use hypnosis. It's just a matter of maturity, repetition, and endurance! She agreed that a traumatic event like this helps. 

Basically, you are who you are but you can always redefine parts of you that make you and others unhappy.


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## gridcom

That's it. I am going to write a song called "File For The D" 

I need lyrics. It needs to be abstract. Chicks love abstract. It can't be :

Woe is me, filing for the D
Wife sucked his C, so I am filing for the D

Needs to be a bit more "deep"

EDIT: Actually, those lyrics kind of rule


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## farsidejunky

It is good that you are maintaining your sense of humor.

Fair question: how long will you allow this current situation to carry on?


----------



## weightlifter

The group Asia already wrote your song.
See: Asia. Only Time will tell.


----------



## LongWalk

Actually there have been at least two professional musicians on TAM. One was drummer. After his D he started a thread about an episode with erectile dysfunction in threesome with a groupie. He was still trying to heal from the blow his wife's infidelity.

There was also a singer song writer who made a living as a musician. His wife was silly and weak. She slept with a wanna-be Hell's Angel biker cocaine dealer. She would not quit her waitressing job at the bar, where she collected all her toxic friends. He tried to R but she was too dumb. He wrote a song about her and shared it by PM. It was good. He was banned from TAMS for chewing out some cheater. He lost control. I think his name was the Devastated or the Deceived but I am not sure.

One of the eternal questions on CWI is interpreting true remorse. I think the answer is not the same for all couples, nor is it the same during different periods of reconciliation. A lot to depends on the individuals.

If two weeks from now after day in which you made your wife laugh or happy and then she openly invited you to have sex and the sex was good and she cried a few happy tears afterwards, you would be fool to start talking about the need for her quit her job. What you need is genuine remorse in your emotional reality. Later you'll have to iron out the principles upon which your relationship rests.

I have friend who is a very successful corporate executive. He is young but even though he was a regional and brand communications manager, there were still plenty of vice presidents and bean counters above him. What makes him successful besides being smart and creative is that he has a self depreciating sense of humor that he can turn against himself or others. He routinely pokes fun at people's weakness. He makes them laugh at themselves. Coming from another person, it would be like an attack. People would hate him, but he does it without malice. He can maintain two lines of discourse, business and personal at the same time.

Being very successful and charming he had a pretty woman in the department fall in love with him. She chased him and they married and had a kid. She is an okay person but in terms of intelligence and sophistication she not in the same class. For want of a better word she is a little boring.

He is not a close friend but we've known each other for a number of years. One evening it suddenly all spilled out. His marriage had gone bad. Neither of them had cheated but his wife was no longer in love with him. I didn't press him for details but I can imagine that once they settled into married life he did not pay so much attention to her. He is could easily lose himself in work and there are plenty of women flirting with him. But he said that he was going to fix his marriage and I know why. The guy is wise beyond his years. He knows that divorcing and finding a better looking, wittier, more successful wife would be doable. But why embark on such a project, that inherently contains risk of failure. Besides if he could date his wife back into loving him, it could be happy, not perfect but happy. When both husband and wife know they have to work at their relationship and always will, they have chance at monogamy.

But as you note your wife is still on the love high. When it finally dissolves she will have problems to deal with. That will take courage on her part.


----------



## weightlifter

The husband of the waitress.

The-Deceived.

One of my faves.


----------



## Satya

Grid, I'm sure you want to get laid. What you do is your decision but please consider being honest with any woman you encounter about what you want. It's easy to get into a rebound with a woman that's looking for a serious relationship. You won't be ready for that. 

Just have a care is all I ask.


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## LongWalk

Grid cannot hook up until he tells his wife their marriage is over.

And to avoid a toxic situation, they need to separate before dating.

There was one TAM BH whose STBXW was still living with him. She used to search his overnight bag for condoms to find out if he were "cheating". His WW wanted to have sex and reconcile but he was done.... can't recall his name. His post D relationships were troubled.


----------



## gridcom

farsidejunky said:


> It is good that you are maintaining your sense of humor.
> 
> Fair question: how long will you allow this current situation to carry on?


Honest Answer: I don't know

Here's a funny thing. I've been Googling everything. Every combo of words related to infidelity, marriage, divorce, love, children, and all the combo's of all those words. Almost literally. I've read so much that I find myself reading the same articles over and over. This is what I find

1- Married couple married for a long time have young children
2- Husband is guilty of neglect
3- Wife has an affair
4- Husband forgives wife, feels guilty for his role in the marital breakdown, wants to fix it
5- Wife convinced husband is no good, was never any good, she married the wrong guy (suddenly, after 19 years, this "revelation" coincides with.....a new man), wants to be with new guy

Every single thing I read, I mean LITERALLY 100%, that relates to the above says that there should be at least an effort made to save the marriage. I have yet to find one article, or testimonial, ANYWHERE, that says "Yep, you have children? Been married 13 years? He neglected you? You cheated? You should totally leave"
Do you any of you recall a thread here on TAM where something similar to the above happened and in the end it was the best thing to happen to the one leaving the marriage?

For a short while, I had access to what my wife was Googling. She would Google stuff like "how to convince husband to divorce" and "want to leave husband for another man but husband controls everything" and literally every article, I mean LITERALLY 100%, would basically tell my wife "eh, lady, you should, eh, fix your marriage" 

This one was the best:
Are You Really Ready for Divorce? The 8 Questions You Need to Ask

It was comical when I'd click on a link of something she read and it'd say the same thing over and over. She was never validated. At the same time, it was sad that she just glossed over what was right in front of her and stayed the course. FOG/ADDICTION/TRANCE/SPELL/DUMB....She even read a bunch of "Not Just Friends" and it had no effect on her whatsoever.

So the long answer is: When she comes out of the fog, and this is between her and me and not her and me and some other jabroni, then and only then will we get to the truth.
About us.


----------



## gridcom

Satya said:


> Grid, I'm sure you want to get laid. What you do is your decision but please consider being honest with any woman you encounter about what you want. It's easy to get into a rebound with a woman that's looking for a serious relationship. You won't be ready for that.
> 
> Just have a care is all I ask.


Oh, I am sorry if I was misunderstood. I have ZERO intention of being unfaithful to my wife, even now. There is zero percent of that happening. I love my wife, still. She is the only person I can imagine being with..... Ok, maybe I can imagine other women, but I have always placed a high value on mahogany, er, MONOGAMY.

I was just making a point that all is not lonely for me on the other side, is all.
When I said I wanted to get laid, I meant by my wife.


----------



## Satya

LongWalk said:


> Grid cannot hook up until he tells his wife their marriage is over.
> 
> And to avoid a toxic situation, they need to separate before dating.
> 
> There was one TAM BH whose STBXW was still living with him. She used to search his overnight bag for condoms to find out if he were "cheating". His WW wanted to have sex and reconcile but he was done.... can't recall his name. His post D relationships were troubled.


I agree about the separation before dating, no doubt of that. My idea is no dating for at least a year. It's just not always what we see here...


----------



## gridcom

Satya said:


> I agree about the separation before dating, no doubt of that. My idea is no dating for at least a year. It's just not always what we see here...


I agree wholeheartedly. Even if my wife were to make me absolutely hate her, I couldn't see any scenario where I'd jump into a relationship on the backend of that and expect it to be healthy at all. 

Love is a m*otherf*cker. I think she could leave me for dead and a year from now, I'll still love her.


----------



## TheGoodGuy

farsidejunky said:


> Exposure kills affairs.
> 
> Ignore it at your own peril.


Yup. It didn't kill it immediately, but after a couple of months they had enough spotlights on them they were too embarrassed to continue. 

Did it save my marriage? Nope. But at that point I didn't want her back anyway.


----------



## gridcom

Also, she went to IC yesterday. I asked her when she was going again and she said she didn't book a follow up. Oy.
I wonder if she thinks three times was enough. I wonder if she doesn't like the lady or if the lady said something she didnt really jive with.
Nonetheless, should I press her to continue or leave it where it is?

EDIT: I know the answer to this already. The answer is leave it alone. She has to make her own decisions on all of these things now and I cant let it affect me at all. 
That said, I know her very well and she absolutely needs a therapist right now. Not because she doesn't want to be with me, but her wires are so twisted right now.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

> =gridcom;13599322
> That said, I know her very well and she absolutely needs a therapist right now. Not because she doesn't want to be with me, but her wires are so twisted right now.


Nah. She just convinced her therapist that there is nothing wrong with her, and you're the A-hole.

It's all your fault, ya kow?


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## ConanHub

Have you confronted the little dipshyt your wife is carrying on with?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Keepin-my-head-up

You say you love your wife and she desperately wants to go.
Not to let her would be a selfish act right?

Your selfishness is holding her back from being whatever it is she wants to be.

Of course it will hurt you to do so, but it will have been a very generous act to allow the one you love beyond all things to go find themselves.
Also, there is no variation of the 180.
Anything else is changing numbers and it becomes a different degree.
No one ever said the 170 is effective.


----------



## turnera

She's not going back because she has no fear you will leave her. Or that you won't just sit there and wait for her to run back into your arms. Why should she go out of her way and bare her soul to a stranger when YOUR response is 'I guess I just let it go'?


----------



## gridcom

ConanHub said:


> Have you confronted the little dipshyt your wife is carrying on with?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yep. Three Times

1st time was coridal, via phone. I told him as nicely as possible to back up and cut the crap. He was very remorseful, said he didnt "make a habit" of hooking up with married women", and would back off and allow us the space to work it out (Thanks guy!)
He called her and told her the same thing and that was the saddest I've seen her in this entire 9 weeks

2nd time was after I found out that they were talking again (10 days after the first encounter). This time I was a bit more aggressive. Told him that my wife was putting him in harms way, and the next time he wont hear from me or see me, he'll just KNOW.

3rd time after I found out they hung out in the parking lot near their job two consecutive nights. I sent him a text (bad move, I know) saying "What did I tell you? You have nobody to blame but yourself" His response (via text): 

I thought it prudent not to respond to this in anger. I didn't appreciate the tone of our last phone conversation, and I certainly don't appreciate threats. This issue is between you and her. Talk to her and stop contacting me.


So, yeah, here's a guy continually pursuing a woman married 13 years with two small children. So hungry to get laid that he dont give a flying f*ck who gets damaged. Piece of sh*t.


----------



## turnera

Well, duh, you threatened to beat the sh*t out of him - THREE TIMES - and did NOTHING.

YOU are the one who looks like a putz, not him.


----------



## gridcom

Keepin-my-head-up said:


> You say you love your wife and she desperately wants to go.
> Not to let her would be a selfish act right?
> 
> Your selfishness is holding her back from being whatever it is she wants to be.


She's free to go!!!!!! But she actually has to go. I am not stopping her, and I'm not moving out. She cant have the affair and live here with her family.


----------



## gridcom

turnera said:


> Well, duh, you threatened to beat the sh*t out of him - THREE TIMES - and did NOTHING.
> 
> YOU are the one who looks like a putz, not him.


Not so fast on the "I did nothing"
Lets just keep it at that. I'm not going to beat someone up (although I'd love to), but I am much much more clever than that.


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## LongWalk

There is no reason to ask her about IC to begin with. That's on her. 

re: the pattern of infidelity
The whole reason a women stray at this time (or any time) is to secure different genes that will produce variation in her offspring. That anyway is the rationale from the point of view of evolutionary biology. And it makes sense. That doesn't change the hurt felt.

If your wife convinced herself that you didn't really love her in the lead up to her decision to cheat, the decision to divorce her might seem to merely confirm that original misconception. So to not allow her time to feel the love high fade as hormones drop might be a tactical mistake.

On the other hand, if you are disrespected by her, then simply waiting around may lower your sex ranking in her eyes. So it is possible to reason from different angles.

Interestingly divorce laws are written so that couples with children cannot get divorced overnight. What does the law say in your state? Six months? A year?

Maybe that length of time is a good measure of what you should set down in your own mind. And maybe in hers.

If she is not going to IC. She needs to hit the gym. Can you take her to a dance class? Something that would give her exercise.


----------



## ConanHub

gridcom said:


> Yep. Three Times
> 
> 1st time was coridal, via phone. I told him as nicely as possible to back up and cut the crap. He was very remorseful, said he didnt "make a habit" of hooking up with married women", and would back off and allow us the space to work it out (Thanks guy!)
> He called her and told her the same thing and that was the saddest I've seen her in this entire 9 weeks
> 
> 2nd time was after I found out that they were talking again (10 days after the first encounter). This time I was a bit more aggressive. Told him that my wife was putting him in harms way, and the next time he wont hear from me or see me, he'll just KNOW.
> 
> 3rd time after I found out they hung out in the parking lot near their job two consecutive nights. I sent him a text (bad move, I know) saying "What did I tell you? You have nobody to blame but yourself" His response (via text):
> 
> I thought it prudent not to respond to this in anger. I didn't appreciate the tone of our last phone conversation, and I certainly don't appreciate threats. This issue is between you and her. Talk to her and stop contacting me.
> 
> 
> So, yeah, here's a guy continually pursuing a woman married 13 years with two small children. So hungry to get laid that he dont give a flying f*ck who gets damaged. Piece of sh*t.


Always confront him with confidence and without threat of violence in very public settings or at least in front of witnesses.

Knock on his door with a buddy in tow, for a witness, and with your daughter. Tell him to stop helping your wife destroy her family.

I would absolutely expose at her work.

You don't have much of a chance at succeeding at plan A without implementation of everything it calls for.

You actually seem wired to be able to successfully pull off plan A so why don't you go full tilt with it?

Start a thread on marriage builders and start following their advice.

Look for a guy called Jedi. The support you will receive there for what you are attempting will be amazing and they have a wealth of experience to share with you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

Expose the little jackal to his family as well.

Let it be known he really enjoys bedding married mothers.

Humiliation is not illegal especially if statements are fact based.

Do expose at the job. This little bltch will stop thinking this is as much fun when everyone knows he is wrecking a home for the sake of his pecker.

Anyone with a brain can tell it won't work with them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

All of these exchanges read like you are chasing her. You really need to stop and actively work on you. If she leaves, oh well, then you know. She has two dudes fighting over her vagina. Women get an ego boost from being fought over just like men.

I think he's a douche, but your wife continues the communication with him. I know you despise the OM, but he is quite right.



> This issue is between you and her. Talk to her and stop contacting me.


This IS between you and your wife. He isn't forcing her to talk, write, visit or screw him. It is all mutually allowed family destruction. Now, he needs to be removed from the marriage, but your WIFE has to stop it from her end as well. 

So, all of this:


> So, yeah, here's a guy continually pursuing a woman married 13 years with two small children. So hungry to get laid that he dont give a flying f*ck who gets damaged. Piece of sh*t.


 Applies to your wife as well. Just in case it makes no sense:


> So, yeah, here's a *gal *continually pursuing a *man while* married 13 years with two small children. So hungry to get laid that *she* dont give a flying f*ck who gets damaged. Piece of sh*t.


 50/50 not 10/90(Douche OM) because of the fog.


----------



## Keepin-my-head-up

phillybeffandswiss said:


> All of these exchanges read like you are chasing her. You really need to stop and actively work on you. If she leaves, oh well, then you know. She has two dudes fighting over her vagina. Women get an ego boost from being fought over just like men.
> 
> I think he's a douche, but your wife continues the communication with him. I know you despise the OM, but he is quite right.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This issue is between you and her. Talk to her and stop contacting me.
> 
> 
> 
> This IS between you and your wife. He isn't forcing her to talk, write, visit or screw him. It is all mutually allowed family destruction. Now, he needs to be removed from the marriage, but your WIFE has to stop it from her end as well.
> 
> So, all of this:
> 
> 
> 
> So, yeah, here's a guy continually pursuing a woman married 13 years with two small children. So hungry to get laid that he dont give a flying f*ck who gets damaged. Piece of sh*t.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Applies to your wife as well. Just in case it makes no sense:
> 
> 
> 
> So, yeah, here's a *gal *continually pursuing a *man while* married 13 years with two small children. So hungry to get laid that *she* dont give a flying f*ck who gets damaged. Piece of sh*t.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 50/50 not 10/90(Douche OM) because of the fog.
Click to expand...

Love the last part.
Was thinking the same thing.

Also, 
If she has a circle of friends that know and some coworkers know.
Should this relationship end, I can almost assure you there is another guy right now thinking he is going to get in on the line.
A proven woman who will have sex with other guys and still live with her hubby?

That is a no strings attached dream for a lot of guys.
Just takes a woman who is willing to be the piece because that is the kind of people who live in this world.


----------



## gridcom

Keepin-my-head-up said:


> Also,
> If she has a circle of friends that know and some coworkers know.
> Should this relationship end, I can almost assure you there is another guy right now thinking he is going to get in on the line.
> A proven woman who will have sex with other guys and still live with her hubby?
> 
> That is a no strings attached dream for a lot of guys.
> Just takes a woman who is willing to be the piece because that is the kind of people who live in this world.


I have thought about this. Again, this is a critical time for my wife, her future, her mental health, our kids, my marriage, our families, our friends, our jobs, etc. Critical, critical, critical. I have pummeled her with the facts. I am focusing on me and letting GOD take care of her now. Not to sound all Jesus-freaky, but if you are a believer in that stuff, it's really up to him now.

I don't know if she has the courage to fight for this marriage


----------



## LongWalk

So, what is the waiting period for divorce to become final in your state when children are involved?

Do you think that setting divorce in motion would have a positive or negative effect on reconciliation?

If you think that it depends on how you present it, what do you think the best package is? As part of MC? Getting served at work?

Does you wife have any sport interest? Hobbies?

Is she eating and drinking normally?


----------



## just got it 55

gridcom said:


> Thundarr, are you suggesting that by cutting the chord entirely, doing "the 180" cutting her off emotionally even if by pretend, agreeing to a divorce, telling the world about her affair and shaming her, ripping my kids (especially my older one) apart, and actually living the life of a sad man on the other side of town has better odds of a reconciliation than the approach I am currently taking? I mean, 4,300+ posts you are certainly more experienced in these dilemmas than me, but that seems completely backwards.
> 
> The "180" seems like a good move for a person who has been cheated on by a person who has no reason to cheat, a person who is truly a sc*mbag. And in that case, who would want to be with a person like that anyway.
> 
> *My wife had reason to cheat. I should change the name of this thread to "My wife cheated and I love her more for it*"


I know I am way late to this but

This is the single worst post I have ever seen on these boards

Lord have mercy on this poor soul

55


----------



## gridcom

LongWalk said:


> So, what is the waiting period for divorce to become final in your state when children are involved?
> 
> Do you think that setting divorce in motion would have a positive or negative effect on reconciliation?
> 
> If you think that it depends on how you present it, what do you think the best package is? As part of MC? Getting served at work?
> 
> Does you wife have any sport interest? Hobbies?
> 
> Is she eating and drinking normally?


NY is 6 months, I believe. 

I am not sure if filing for divorce would have a positive or negative effect on reconciliation, to be honest. I think, like I said, time is on my side here. That's not to say I am going to live with her in this way indefinitely. Somebody is going to have to make a move at some point.

She doesn't really have any hobbies. Which I honestly think contributes overall to her lack of happiness. She thinks it's a lack of happiness "within the marriage" and I think it's more a lack of happiness "in general". She honestly doesn't have her own thing. She did Pampered Chef for awhile, and while she did better than I thought she would do, she wasn't cut out to do business in social settings. That type of thing requires you to be on the prowl for money and weave it into casual conversations at the PTA meeting or the community pool. She is outgoing, but that was too much for her, I think. I guess if she had a hobby it would be community service. She's very involved in the school and her church.

She loves music and music discovery. Right now she loves songs about ending old relationships and starting new ones 

She is eating and drinking normally and sleeping normally. The sleeping normally pi$$es me off, frankly. It's like, how can you sleep through all of this?


----------



## gridcom

just got it 55 said:


> I know I am way late to this but
> 
> This is the single worst post I have ever seen on these boards
> 
> Lord have mercy on this poor soul
> 
> 55


Yeah, in my defense, that was early on. I think I've gotten a grip since then. But yeah, that's pretty bad.


----------



## turnera

gridcom said:


> She is eating and drinking normally and sleeping normally. The sleeping normally pi$$es me off, frankly. It's like, how can you sleep through all of this?


Of course she is.

You have given no consequences. She has no fear of losing you. Why should SHE give a flip? Nothing is going to happen to her.


----------



## gridcom

I just caught her hiding something from me on her phone. She went on a job interview today and I saw her rolling into the driveway, so I went out there to see how it went. As I walked up to the car, she was typing on her phone and immediately panicked and did the "oops scramble". Lame. Could be anything, I guess. Not sure why I assume it's secret texts with the AP. She is having private conversations with many people, as am I


----------



## weightlifter

Since hes in the NE.
Knock knock.
Posom answers.
I just wanna talk. Oh this is my "friend" Tony.
Hes... In the... Cement business in Bergen.


----------



## Keepin-my-head-up

Grid,
Not adding or subtracting but one way or another it is going to work out for you.

Call it Jesus, Universe or what have you- there will be a conclusion. I just hope you have a breaking point where you take control and say enough is enough if things don't work out how you planned.

If you are putting the situation in God's hands, just know that you will not always like the answer.

I do hope it works out well for you because from what I read, brother you deserve that.
You should come up with a time frame for when enough is enough tho.
And yep, I do know that is what the other posters mean when they say file and wait.
Just agreeing with them in my own way.
Even if you don't file, for your sanity come up with a breaking point or timeline my friend


----------



## farsidejunky

gridcom said:


> She's free to go!!!!!! But she actually has to go. I am not stopping her, and I'm not moving out. She cant have the affair and live here with her family.


Yet this is exactly what you are allowing her to do.

I will refer you back to Turnera's post regarding male anatomy.


----------



## LongWalk

She likes bust up songs. Well, serve her this one.

Expecting to fly cover by Emily Haines.

On YouTube there was another performance by Haines, by the end of which a couple of tears trickle down her cheek. She pretends the light is in her eye. Maybe PMS or just a good song. Whoever put it up deleted it. 

Original artist.

"Expecting To Fly"

There you stood
on the edge of your feather,
Expecting to fly.
While I laughed,
I wondered whether
I could wave goodbye,
Knowin' that you'd gone.
By the summer it was healing,
We had said goodbye.
All the years
we'd spent with feeling
Ended with a cry,
Babe, ended with a cry,
Babe, ended with a cry.

I tried so hard to stand
As I stumbled
and fell to the ground.
So hard to laugh as I fumbled
And reached for the love I found,
Knowin' it was gone.
If I never lived without you,
Now you know I'd die.
If I never said I loved you,
Now you know I'd try,
Babe, now you know I'd try.
Babe, now you know I'd try,
Babe.


----------



## gridcom

LongWalk said:


> She likes bust up songs. Well, serve her this one.
> 
> Expecting to fly cover by Emily Haines.
> 
> On YouTube there was another performance by Haines, by the end of which a couple of tears trickle down her cheek. She pretends the light is in her eye. Maybe PMS or just a good song. Whoever put it up deleted it.
> 
> Original artist.
> 
> "Expecting To Fly"
> 
> There you stood
> on the edge of your feather,
> Expecting to fly.
> While I laughed,
> I wondered whether
> I could wave goodbye,
> Knowin' that you'd gone.
> By the summer it was healing,
> We had said goodbye.
> All the years
> we'd spent with feeling
> Ended with a cry,
> Babe, ended with a cry,
> Babe, ended with a cry.
> 
> I tried so hard to stand
> As I stumbled
> and fell to the ground.
> So hard to laugh as I fumbled
> And reached for the love I found,
> Knowin' it was gone.
> If I never lived without you,
> Now you know I'd die.
> If I never said I loved you,
> Now you know I'd try,
> Babe, now you know I'd try.
> Babe, now you know I'd try,
> Babe.


Brilliant. Metric is her favorite band. hahahaha


----------



## just got it 55

gridcom said:


> Hi all-
> 
> .
> 
> One option for me, due to the nature of my job, is I have been thinking of just leaving for 6-8 weeks. As in, disappearing from my wife for that length of time. No contact. The money would still come into our joint account so she can pay the bills. I would Facetime with my daughters only, and cut off all contact with my wife. Her sister said to me that she cant miss me or appreciate what positives I did bring to her life if I am here, begging. I think this may be a way to save marriage, or at least have it roll in the right direction. Most people cant afford to just up and leave town because their job requires them to physically be somewhere. I have the luxury of working wherever I am. As long as my brain and fingers work, and this computer works and there is wi-fi, I am good to go. I've talked to a lawyer and he said as long as I am not gone more than 6 months (NY State) it's not abandonment if you leave the money unchanged. This idea is starting to steamroll in my head. My wife is living with a walking disaster.


This screams PA

55


----------



## farsidejunky

Yup.


----------



## gridcom

just got it 55 said:


> This screams PA
> 
> 55


What do you mean? I actually have been thinking I should have done this. I regret not doing it.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

gridcom said:


> I just caught her hiding something from me on her phone. She went on a job interview today and I saw her rolling into the driveway, so I went out there to see how it went. As I walked up to the car, she was typing on her phone and immediately panicked and did the "oops scramble". Lame. Could be anything, I guess. Not sure why I assume it's secret texts with the AP. She is having private conversations with many people, as am I


See, this is what I mean by stopping. Why are you chasing after her when she comes home? Unless it is mutual shopping or your kids, quit meeting her at the door and acting like she is a normal spouse who deserves this type of attention.

It's like blindly diving into a pool with no water and wondering why you keep getting hurt.


----------



## turnera

gridcom said:


> What do you mean? I actually have been thinking I should have done this. I regret not doing it.


Because you would have done it TO GET A REACTION OUT OF HER.

That is passive aggressive, and typical of a Nice Guy - someone so insecure in his own worth that he feels he has to make grand statements to shock her into 'choosing' him. The problem is that it's just that - a shock created to beget shock-induced decisions. The problem is that once the shock wears off, she will feel cheated and tricked. And you'll be back on the roller coaster all over again.


----------



## LongWalk

Put a VAR in the car.
GPS, too.

Stop chasing her.

On Sunday drive to a cider mill, let your kids see the apples go in and the juice come out.


----------



## Decorum

She is living her life for her own happiness. You play a role in that for now. Can you parlay that into a leading role? Pick me! Pick me! Pathetic and unlikely. She is the producer and the director ATM.

Why not start your own film and star in it, she can try out for the casting call or not as the leading lady. Time to do you!!! 

If you screwed up you don't owe to her to be weak, as her husband you owe it to her to be strong.

If you are faking it you will get fake results, strength and confidence are attractive along with kindness, that's what it means to "man up".


----------



## Decorum

LongWalk said:


> Put a VAR in the car.
> GPS, too.
> 
> Stop chasing her.
> 
> On Sunday drive to a cider mill, let your kids see the apples go in and the juice come out.


:iagree:

And btw I love apple cider.


----------



## gridcom

Weird night. We had to go to our youngest daughter's (kindergarten) Back To School night. Before we even left the house, my wife was pelting me with "Should we take separate cars?" and giving me grief because I'm not talking to her "on purpose". And it's like OF COURSE IT'S ON PURPOSE. What do you think, I forgot you had an affair and subsequently went crazy?!?!?! Who wants to talk to someone when the crap coming out of their mouth makes you sick?

And the irony of all of that is that I AM talking to her, and engaging her. I am not at all being PA (haha see what I did there?). Bottom line is she wanted to engage me and that was her approach. To give me grief about not engaging her. Pretty weak.

Back To School sucked. This little girl, going to learn her ABC's and 123's and daddy is soon to be extradited from the family home. Deal with it, young one. Your mom has suddenly decided I was never the man for her and its time to cut me out of her life.

But then.....

She comes home and goes out her way to show me what they were studying today at her Woman's Bible Study. YES, she had an affair and she goes to Bible Study on weekdays. Yes, she said just last week that she never claimed to be a "Good Christian". Anyway, she wants me to read this thing they studied today and here's a passage

"Many fathers in our culture are absent from their homes, physically and/or emotionally. Even the church has experienced the lack of fathers-Spiritual Fathers.

Author Mark Hanby says, 'One of results of the fatherless church is oppression. A FAMILY WITHOUT A FATHER SUFFERS FINANCIALLY, SOCIALLY, AND PSYCHOLOGICALLY, AS WELL AS SPIRITUALLY. When the father is not present in the home to train the children in matters of the Lord, the hearts of the children turn to rage and they dishonor authority"

Remember that analogy I used the other day about the cat who tortures the mouse before killing it? 

That.

Either the march of remorse, sorrow, and saddness is getting louder or my wife is a f*cking idiot. 

Anyway, lets go Mets.


----------



## anchorwatch

Take a deep breath, Grid. Keep venting, it's good for the soul. 

Let's go Mets!


----------



## farsidejunky

Idiot.

She is still in the A which is why she wanted separate cars.

Grid, put a damn VAR in her car. You will see in a couple of days she is still in contact with OM.


----------



## gridcom

farsidejunky said:


> Idiot.
> 
> She is still in the A which is why she wanted separate cars.
> 
> Grid, put a damn VAR in her car. You will see in a couple of days she is still in contact with OM.


I am not going to put a VAR in her car. I really don't care anymore. I don't want to spend 5 seconds sneaking a VAR in and out, reviewing it, confirming the worst. When I had access to her Google, I ended up telling her I had access to it, mainly because I really was sick of looking at all the twisted stuff she was Googling. 

I'd be more inclined to do the VAR approach if/when she ever decided to recommit to the marriage. Until then, she's pretty straight ahead that she is miserable married to me and feels stuck and blah blah blah and, again, whatever. It's out of my hands. 

My energy is on being a better me. I need to stay consistent in that. That is truly the path to my own happiness.


----------



## gridcom

I am grouchy tonight. Too bad. I woke up with a positive mood. The Cat and Mouse thing.....

Like Henry Rollins once said (sang?):

"Sometimes I wanna take you by your shoulders and shake you
You've got to open your eyes, man, how long will it take you"


----------



## ConanHub

Don't attempt the 180 and Plan A.

They are diametrically opposed.

Improving yourself is good no matter what but plan A requires engaging your wife to deposit units in her love bank.

You can always insist she end her affair and tell her that her affair has to stop for your marriage and family to recover and thrive but you have to talk to her with plan A.

Bring the article up about fathers and say you don't want that for your daughter and that you are trying on your end to improve but she is ensuring your daughter will suffer because she won't end the affair and work with you to improve your marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## gridcom

ConanHub said:


> Don't attempt the 180 and Plan A.
> 
> They are diametrically opposed.
> 
> Improving yourself is good no matter what but plan A requires engaging your wife to deposit units in her love bank.
> 
> You can always insist she end her affair and tell her that her affair has to stop for your marriage and family to recover and thrive but you have to talk to her with plan A.
> 
> Bring the article up about fathers and say you don't want that for your daughter and that you are trying on your end to improve but she is ensuring your daughter will suffer because she won't end the affair and work with you to improve your marriage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think what I am doing is a modified Plan A/180 with a cranberry habanero sauce and brie cheese and salsa chips on the side


----------



## turnera

No, you're just being a vanilla brand Nice Guy. 

Who gets nothing of what he wants.


----------



## gridcom

conanhub said:


> plan a requires engaging your wife to deposit units in her love bank.
> _posted via mobile device_


sounds like a party.


----------



## ConanHub

gridcom said:


> sounds like a party.


Definitely and you're the piñata.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lifeistooshort

I've avoided getting much involved in this thread because I recognize that it's a trigger for me, and since I sometimes lack a filter I'll shoot off at the mouth. Not the affair part but a husband who treats his wife poorly and is then the victim when things blow up in his face.
I had this with my ex hb.....he did many of the things you describe: he was angry, quite nasty to me, generally avoided spending time with me, you get the picture. Yet when I filed for divorce he lost his mind....cried that he was sorry, wanted counseling, was worried about child support and finances, worried about the kids being in a broken home (which was laughable to me because not only was he nasty to me right in front of them but he really didn't have that much to do with them). He flat out told me that he thought we were in this "come hell or high water".....translation: I didn't think it mattered how I treated you because I didn't think you were going anywhere.

I don't know that you were nasty on the level my ex was but you acknowledge you weren't a very good husband. Which leads me to my question: are you sure you were really as happy with your wife as you think? I get that you're worried about finances and the kids but what about the personal relationship with your wife? I mean, if she was really a priority to you I feel like you wouldn't have been going on trips without her and would've been making time because you would've missed her. My ex also basically lived his life without me until he wanted dinner or sex, then all of a sudden I had use. It's even clearer to me now that I'm remarried to someone who does value time with me as he makes lots of plans for us to do stuff, and he'd never plan a trip without me unless there was a compelling reason to leave me behind. Would you have spoken to your boss the same way you spoke to your wife? If not that should tell you something. People here are very fond of quoting marital vows but what about the vow to love and cherish? That is often conveniently forgotten.

I'm of the belief that people show you who they are and what they value when they think nobody's watching, and your actions suggest you don't really value your wife all that much. Now you do value your life with her, but your actual relationship with her? Just think about it and take a look at this article:

https://coachjackito.com/blog/i-changed-wife-come-back/

This may actually sum up your wife. We all know she's not going to have a future with this d0uche at work and your wife probably knows it too, she just has so much resentment that she feels you deserve what she did. Please note that I'm not suggesting you do, just that I think that's what's going through her mind. I'm not going to argue whether her having an affair was worse then your treatment of her, but it was a terrible decision on her part.

So once again, how happy were you really with your wife? I don't even know what to tell you now because this whole thing has become about her affair, and maybe that's how it has to be for now. But maybe if you're still interested in getting her to try you could take a look at that article.....clearly friends and family pressuring her is only making her dig her heels in deeper. Probably because she feels they don't really understand how she was treated. I guess continuing to detach and filing is probably all you can do now but give this some thought in case she does come out of this and you're still interested.


----------



## gridcom

lifeistooshort said:


> I've avoided getting much involved in this thread because I recognize that it's a trigger for me, and since I sometimes lack a filter I'll shoot off at the mouth. Not the affair part but a husband who treats his wife poorly and is then the victim when things blow up in his face.
> I had this with my ex hb.....he did many of the things you describe: he was angry, quite nasty to me, generally avoided spending time with me, you get the picture. Yet when I filed for divorce he lost his mind....cried that he was sorry, wanted counseling, was worried about child support and finances, worried about the kids being in a broken home (which was laughable to me because not only was he nasty to me right in front of them but he really didn't have that much to do with them). He flat out told me that he thought we were in this "come hell or high water".....translation: I didn't think it mattered how I treated you because I didn't think you were going anywhere.
> 
> I don't know that you were nasty on the level my ex was but you acknowledge you weren't a very good husband. Which leads me to my question: are you sure you were really as happy with your wife as you think? I get that you're worried about finances and the kids but what about the personal relationship with your wife? I mean, if she was really a priority to you I feel like you wouldn't have been going on trips without her and would've been making time because you would've missed her. My ex also basically lived his life without me until he wanted dinner or sex, then all of a sudden I had use. It's even clearer to me now that I'm remarried to someone who does value time with me as he makes lots of plans for us to do stuff, and he'd never plan a trip without me unless there was a compelling reason to leave me behind. Would you have spoken to your boss the same way you spoke to your wife? If not that should tell you something. People here are very fond of quoting marital vows but what about the vow to love and cherish? That is often conveniently forgotten.
> 
> I'm of the belief that people show you who they are and what they value when they think nobody's watching, and your actions suggest you don't really value your wife all that much. Now you do value your life with her, but your actual relationship with her? Just think about it and take a look at this article:
> 
> https://coachjackito.com/blog/i-changed-wife-come-back/
> 
> This may actually sum up your wife. We all know she's not going to have a future with this d0uche at work and your wife probably knows it too, she just has so much resentment that she feels you deserve what she did. Please note that I'm not suggesting you do, just that I think that's what's going through her mind. I'm not going to argue whether her having an affair was worse then your treatment of her, but it was a terrible decision on her part.
> 
> So once again, how happy were you really with your wife? I don't even know what to tell you now because this whole thing has become about her affair, and maybe that's how it has to be for now. But maybe if you're still interested in getting her to try you could take a look at that article.....clearly friends and family pressuring her is only making her dig her heels in deeper. Probably because she feels they don't really understand how she was treated. I guess continuing to detach and filing is probably all you can do now but give this some thought in case she does come out of this and you're still interested.


Thanks LifeIsTooShort. I've read that article and it's accurate to my situation (minus the affair). That said, I absolutely love my wife, not just love being married to her. And I know and understand the difference. 

I'm not making excuses, but I do think a lot of it has to do with my type of employment (I negotiate all day and with "flair") and how intense it is. Add in working from home, and it was hard to separate the work from the marriage. I approached both the same. Well, I approached negotiating/arguing with my wife similar to how I approach my job. I am upstairs pummeling and leveraging a concert promoter for an extra 5% for my client, then I walk down one flight of stairs and have to switch into sweet hubby mode. Dangerous stuff. I also wouldn't say I am an angry fella. High strung sometimes? Yes. Angry? Thats not how I carry myself generally. 

I do feel like I did honor and cherish, but I also made the fatal mistake of honoring and cherishing her internally. I've always had a weird thing with showing outward affection. I'm generally not very affectionate. And I've always felt guilty about that. But, that never meant I wasn't very proud of my wife and appreciative of what she brought to my life. I just showed it in abstract ways. I very much enjoy her company, I always have. I've always preferred hanging with her to hanging with anybody. We actually do spend time together, but when there are kids involved it's more "family time" and not quality "just you and me" time. 

The reason I always took trips by myself is simply because it's my job. Part of my job is to go to festivals and concerts in other cities. She's never resented not going with me. She's never complained about it once, honestly. But, thinking about it now, getting a sitter and paying with our own money for an additional flight is something that should have happened more often. 

Again, no excuses. I really had no idea that my wife was as unhappy as she is. That makes me a fool but thats the truth. And at the same time, I have caught myself often during these last 9 weeks over compensating for how "rotten" a husband I was. Maybe to justify my wife's behavior. And maybe because I could frame it that the more rotten I was, the more control of this I would have (by turning down the rotten dial). Our general day to day was fine, and more or less healthy. It's just when there was an argument, it often became beyond unnecessary. I did tell my wife, literally hours after she revealed her affair, that it may very well be the best thing that ever happened to us. And I think I've mentioned that here in earlier posts. My mistakes in our marriage are glowing bright red when my wife looks back on our entire history. This is due to some level to the affair. 

I do appreciate this articles precision to my dilemma. However, as much as I want to reinvigorate the love between us, and focus only on that and let the peripherals take care of themselves, in my situation there is infidelity to overcome and I dont know where that fits in this equation.

Out of curiosity when you decided to tell your husband you were leaving him, and he begged you to stay, did you have children at the time? Did you give the marriage one last chance? And also, was he as forthcoming and contrite as I have been?


----------



## LongWalk

Grid,

A while back there was chap with young children and a cheating wife. His situation was similar to yours. Perhaps even worse. She no longer loved him and his desire to be a better husband did not much impress her. He, listening to TAM advice, blew the affair out of the water by exposing the OM on Cheaterville, a then popular website for exposing the affair partners. (note: Cheaterville, not surprisingly, was abused by some horrible people, so the owners of Cheaterville had a change of heart and decided to convert their enormous online popularity to exposing bullies. It's worth a read.)

In those days posters sometimes shared the Cheaterville link with TAM members whom they had come to trust. It was also possible to simply read recent entries and figure out which entry was from the TAM poster in question. (Was this good? It's a subject worthy of discussion but let us skip the thread jack for the moment.) In this case, the OM became very real. He was a University of Pennsylvania administrator responsible for a particular area of taxation that affected the lives of people. He had reached a position of responsibility that inherently involved social competence. He could not have made it to that post by being a completely unethical jerk off.

His personnel photo showed a good looking blond guy, whose gaze was direct and genuine looking. He was divorced and single so he was not cheating on a wife.

Being on Cheaterville must have been a huge shock for him because most of Cheaterville crowd were a pretty gritty real America crowd. The "saving money, living better" people from Walmart were there. The Florida gym rat with silicone breasts and the truck driver who sampled wh*res coast to coast, they were the Cheaterville folk, not this Ivy League guy. I'll bet that it spread like wildfire among the staff, not on the work desk tops but via texts with links.

Suddenly the secret affair was utterly exposed. For the OM getting off of Cheaterville was essential. He had to get his lover, the WW to convince the husband to take it down. The wife actually got into bed with husband. No sex happened but she got back into the marital bed, which was an amazing event in his life. I think his wife agreed to try MC or to put the affair on hold if he took down the CV post. Don't do it cried the TAM chorus. I think he took down and when his wife turned even colder he put it up again. And then she made him take it down again. I can't remember exactly.

He left TAM. But before he clicked delete he said goodbye and explained how he was going to try and win his wife's love back by being the husband that he had not been. it looked pretty bleak to be honest. However, one point became clear to the WW, her arse of a husband did love her in his own way even if they had fought and yelled at each other.

It is possible that the woman just wanted to get her husband's teeth out of her leg and join the tax dude on the other side of D. They may even have a child now in a new family. Maybe the BH managed to reach his wife and they are happy again, or as happy as we can be in this life. We never got the ending of that one.

Right now your wife may still be convinced that she is letting OM down because she is too weak to leave you. It is also possible that she sees a successful relationship with OM as less likely, not least because there are so many problems with family, etc. That brings us round to the problem of what she feels for you.

I can understand that since you are a negotiator for a living, your wife is going to hate being negotiated back into a loveless marriage. She already knows you can squeeze people. You probably did it to her without thinking. So, yeah, I get it. Filing for divorce will look like a play out of the playbook. 

Perhaps for the moment all you can do is keep trying to communicate. To be honest your wife's sharing of that text was an attempt at dialog, even if it appeared to shift blame for the affair on to you.


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## Lostinthought61

Grid, when you wife told you what she learn in church you should have tourned around and said you know I learn in church this week directly from God. Thou shall not commit adultery...and walk away.


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## gridcom

Thanks All-

LifeIsTooShort- that article and your post really rocked my boat. I am printing that article out and am going to hang it up near my desk today. It was so admittedly spot on that it feels like a lightning bolt. I didn't sleep all night. I hope some of the men here read it, as well. 

LongWalk - I really do appreciate your writing above many others and I thank you

There is an analogy I'll use here. Sometimes when a star baseball player gets into a slump, he ends up listening to so many voices telling him how to fix the slump. His hitting coach, the manager, his father, his high school coach, his agent, fans on the street, ESPN commentators, AM Sports Talk jocks, etc.... and the player takes to listening to all of these people and trying to take a little bit of what each is saying and apply it to fixing his slump. And, if any of you are baseball fans, you all know that this almost always makes the player slump even worse. Only when the player shuns all of the advice, or simply focuses on one voice, does he get back to that simple theory of "see the ball, hit the ball" and thus becomes the player he was meant to be again.

With that, I am going to back off of TAM. Too many voices. Some of it feels wrong. I will come back and post occasionally, I promise, just to give updates on the conclusion of this story (good or bad).

I never felt comfortable with applying tactics to my situation that felt insincere, and I'm glad I didn't. Real love doesn't need tactics. Although she made a terrible mistake, my wife's happiness at this time is important to me. With me or potentially without me. Before this affair, I was a taker and I did very little giving. And what I said the night this affair started, that this could be the best thing that ever happened to us, I'm determined to find truth in that for all 4 people living under this roof.

I've felt this often over the last 9 weeks, so I'll say it here. This marriage only recovers and becomes version 2 through the lens of God. I am going to stop reading TAM and other articles/websites and take that time to read the Bible and remind my wife what a special person she is and thank her for ever entering my life and making me feel like a winner for 19 years and start GIVING

Thanks everybody. I'll come back eventually.


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## Be smart

I dont know what to say,but if it was me and my wife tells me she does not love me,she wants a divorce,she is still seeing this OM I would just let her go.

I dont care if we have 2 or 5 kids,I will divorce her but I will still be in my kids lives.
I will not care what my friends or my in laws tell me,it is my life and I deserve some happines and I deserve a good wife,who will not go with OM in front of my nose.


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## LongWalk

Good luck!

Keep in touch.

Metric tour


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## cbnero

Be smart said:


> I dont know what to say,but if it was me and my wife tells me she does not love me,she wants a divorce,she is still seeing this OM I would just let her go.
> 
> I dont care if we have 2 or 5 kids,I will divorce her but I will still be in my kids lives.
> I will not care what my friends or my in laws tell me,it is my life and I deserve some happines and I deserve a good wife,who will not go with OM in front of my nose.


Ditto. Accepting responsibility for your faults is a good thing. Accepting responsibility for your faults and her faults is not. Why enable her to blame you for everything like many wayward spouses try to do? Sounds like a recipe for disaster.

"Hold on, I'm not done blaming everyone but myself!"

Buckle up an good luck!


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## phillybeffandswiss

gridcom said:


> This marriage only recovers and becomes version 2 through the lens of God. I am going to stop reading TAM and other articles/websites and take that time to read the Bible and remind my wife what a special person she is and thank her for ever entering my life and making me feel like a winner for 19 years and start GIVING
> 
> Thanks everybody. I'll come back eventually.


The Bible says God hates divorce and every divorcee is an adulterer. There is one exception, sexual immorality. The Bible say you run from sexual immorality. Yes, a conundrum.

Now, make sure you do what is best for you.

Good luck and don't be a cherry picker.


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## lifeistooshort

gridcom said:


> Thanks LifeIsTooShort. I've read that article and it's accurate to my situation (minus the affair). That said, I absolutely love my wife, not just love being married to her. And I know and understand the difference.
> 
> I'm not making excuses, but I do think a lot of it has to do with my type of employment (I negotiate all day and with "flair") and how intense it is. Add in working from home, and it was hard to separate the work from the marriage. I approached both the same. Well, I approached negotiating/arguing with my wife similar to how I approach my job. I am upstairs pummeling and leveraging a concert promoter for an extra 5% for my client, then I walk down one flight of stairs and have to switch into sweet hubby mode. Dangerous stuff. I also wouldn't say I am an angry fella. High strung sometimes? Yes. Angry? Thats not how I carry myself generally.
> 
> I do feel like I did honor and cherish, but I also made the fatal mistake of honoring and cherishing her internally. I've always had a weird thing with showing outward affection. I'm generally not very affectionate. And I've always felt guilty about that. But, that never meant I wasn't very proud of my wife and appreciative of what she brought to my life. I just showed it in abstract ways. I very much enjoy her company, I always have. I've always preferred hanging with her to hanging with anybody. We actually do spend time together, but when there are kids involved it's more "family time" and not quality "just you and me" time.
> 
> The reason I always took trips by myself is simply because it's my job. Part of my job is to go to festivals and concerts in other cities. She's never resented not going with me. She's never complained about it once, honestly. But, thinking about it now, getting a sitter and paying with our own money for an additional flight is something that should have happened more often.
> 
> Again, no excuses. I really had no idea that my wife was as unhappy as she is. That makes me a fool but thats the truth. And at the same time, I have caught myself often during these last 9 weeks over compensating for how "rotten" a husband I was. Maybe to justify my wife's behavior. And maybe because I could frame it that the more rotten I was, the more control of this I would have (by turning down the rotten dial). Our general day to day was fine, and more or less healthy. It's just when there was an argument, it often became beyond unnecessary. I did tell my wife, literally hours after she revealed her affair, that it may very well be the best thing that ever happened to us. And I think I've mentioned that here in earlier posts. My mistakes in our marriage are glowing bright red when my wife looks back on our entire history. This is due to some level to the affair.
> 
> I do appreciate this articles precision to my dilemma. However, as much as I want to reinvigorate the love between us, and focus only on that and let the peripherals take care of themselves, in my situation there is infidelity to overcome and I dont know where that fits in this equation.
> 
> Out of curiosity when you decided to tell your husband you were leaving him, and he begged you to stay, did you have children at the time? Did you give the marriage one last chance? And also, was he as forthcoming and contrite as I have been?



We did, 2 and 4 year old boys. When I checked out i was done, mainly because I'd been telling him I was miserable and his response was that it was my problem. I'd already asked for counseling and he refused. I'm a big distance runner and I'd asked him if he wanted to come a race with me and his response was "why would I want to? ". I responded with "i have no idea so forget it".

He was never as apologetic as you are and he to this day doesn't have your level of introspection. It's been 10 years and he's still single, mainly because he's a d!ck. Our boys are 12 and 14 now and doing very well.

I'd suspect your wife feels very powerless against you, that's why she stuck the other guy in your face and is digging her heels in against everyone's pressuring. She doesn't understand why your life needed to blow up for you to treat her decently which is why she resents your efforts. 

For sure you need to protect yourself but sticking it to her in order to get her see how difficult life will be without you is either going to drive her away or get you a wife who resents the hvll out of you and can't stand you but puts up with you for the finances and kids. That can't be what you want.

If reconciling is what you want she must come to you willingly. I really hope she comes around because your ability to look in the mirror and assess is very good, better than most. Give her a chance to feel like she has some power over her own life and she may come back and be all in. 

Best of luck, and come back with updates.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ButtPunch

OP

I don't think you are quite ready to receive the advice you are getting. You must 
accept that your reality is a wife who doesn't love you anymore. It sux I've been there. 
Posters are not offering you insincere methods to get your wife back. Your wife is gone and the 
posters are trying to get you to realize and accept that fact. The 180 was created so you can detach
from your WW and get over her emotional hold on you. 

Best of Luck


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## ButtPunch

Anyone else see a pattern of "weak or nice" guys who were terrible husbands and then their 
wife cheated on them. I'm not buying it. Your wife cheated because she lacks moral constitution and
not because you didn't vacuum the house enough or rub her feet like she wanted.


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## ArmyofJuan

gridcom said:


> Thanks everybody. I'll come back eventually.


Yea you will, on your next DDay to say everyone was right all along.


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## phillybeffandswiss

ButtPunch said:


> Anyone else see a pattern of "weak or nice" guys who were terrible husbands and then their
> wife cheated on them. I'm not buying it. Your wife cheated because she lacks moral constitution and
> not because you didn't vacuum the house enough or rub her feet like she wanted.


I just take it all with a grain of salt. I let others get worked up about the issue, whether it is a legit reason or a lazy excuse. We will never know because we aren't in their marriage.


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## ButtPunch

phillybeffandswiss said:


> I just take it all with a grain of salt. I let others get worked up about the issue, whether it is a legit reason or a lazy excuse. We will never know because we aren't in their marriage.


I bet the majority are really good husbands.


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## phillybeffandswiss

ButtPunch said:


> I bet the majority are really good husbands.


*Shrugs* I don't bet on things that can never be proven.


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## LongWalk

Gridcom is a sharp guy and right now he is feeling dumb because he didn't date his wife. She loves music. He's in the music business and he did not take her to enjoy the gravy part of his job. Of course, for him the concerts were always a combination of work and play. To her it would have been an opportunity to see his success. She may have felt that he was not proud of her.

Was she a person of weak moral constitution? Perhaps. Hungry people will steal bread. It doesn't matter how well they have embraced the 10 Commandments. One can ask if the need for sex and affirmation is as strong or compelling as the need for food. In the olden days the punishment for adultery was death. But then stealing a sheep or cow could also leave a man dangling at the end of a rope. 

I think lifeistooshort has summarized Grid's situation pretty well. Really the old let them go approach is the best for him. And he has told her she is free to do so.


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## just got it 55

*Mercy !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*

55


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## truster

LongWalk said:


> Metric tour


Is this relevant to something in the thread I missed? I ask because I've been a Metric fan for over a decade now, so this perked up my ears a bit


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## LongWalk

I suggested he play a Emily Haines' YouTube cover of Neil Young's Expecting to Fly. He replied that Metric was his WW's favorite band.

Of course it is now a bit late for him to buy tickets to a show and fly across the country with her to see them. But maybe better late than never.


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## Evinrude58

I don't but all the husband neglecting the poor wife stuff. What did she do to create a good marriage with her husband? Did she ask him to go to counseling? Did she tell him before the affair that he was screwing up and she was about to be done with him? Why is the man the only one who should be working at making the relationship work?
I'm not implying that you said all these things, but it kinda seems like that's the gist of it. I was guilty of talking badly to my ex in front if our kids, not showing her respect, and not helping as much as I should on the inside stuff. I had self-corrected 99% of that years before she decided to start reading online smut books, then online sexting/pic swapping with multiple other men and bashing me. She then wanted a divorce a month or two after the online affairs. 

We had a friend who in my ex's eyes was the perfect husband and dad, and his wife(my ex's friend) left him and screwed everyone in the country, including his best friend. I remember my ex acting so outraged..... Ugggh


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## gridcom

Hi All -

I know I had said I was going to take breather from this place, but I was about to write a quick journal entry and figured I'd just write it here. 

I really don't want to get into the habit of doing play-by-play-blow-by-blow like I did earlier this week. I do wholeheartedly believe that my time is better spent working (at my job), enjoying my children, and focusing on my wife directly than debating with people here if I should "file for the D" or "do the 180" or "the plan A", etc. That said, I do find some comfort in talking to you all as most of us do have one thing in common, thus why we are all here to begin with.

The post by LifeIsToShort on Thursday night had a lot of impact. Leave it to the lone (?) woman to come onto the thread and get to the heart of the matter. The link she sent was so spot on that not only did I print it out, but I sent it to my wife as well as a handful of other people who I had previously sent articles "condemning" my wife. LifeIsTooShort wrote the following: "clearly friends and family pressuring her is only making her dig her heels in deeper. Probably because she feels they don't really understand how she was treated." and that was the main reason why I wanted to send it along to some of the people who have been pressuring her. My wife told me that the article was spot on, but I didn't need her to tell me that. I already knew as she has said much of the same. Again, the article doesn't address the matter of infidelity, but it doesn't matter. That article is a map (along with the bible) that will get me where I need to go. She is going to have to deal with the infidelity on her own first before we can deal with it as a couple, which I believe she is doing.

She has been noticeably nicer this last week, coinciding with me simply "backing off". I also think some of the fog is lifting. "SOME" being the imperative word there. I don't know if she is doing it consciously or subconsciously, but if you have FIRM intentions of divorcing your husband/mate/lover of 19 years, you simply don't engage him the way she has chosen to engage me this week. She has been friendly and engaging. I am trying not getting my hopes up too high as she simply may not be "applying tactics" much the way I haven't applied tactics. It could very well be that when she thinks about it, she wants a divorce, but when she isn't thinking about it, she can't help herself but to be my companion out of habit. Whatever, I'm rolling with it.

I asked her if she wanted to see "War Room" tonight and she's into it, so we are going. Can't hurt, right? Again, not getting my hopes up. This is the same woman that two weeks ago read parts of "Not Just Friends" and came into my office telling me that the book just reinforced that she needs to get rid of me.

I can't help but think we are ever so slowly starting to roll in the right direction. I can't get ahead of myself, which is easier said than done. I know that even under the best of circumstances, there are giant potholes in the road ahead. She's going to have to be as committed as I am right now, and she is nowhere close to that nor will she be anytime soon. Maybe she doesn't realize it yet, but any reconciliation between us is going to require her to leave her job. It's the one absolute deal breaker to me. She is going to have to choose me over the job. I'm sure she thinks she can get over this guy and still see him as a co-worker or even as a very casual friend, but as "Not Just Friends" and countless others have noted, once you cross the line you cannot cross back. I was just reading another thread on here about a woman who's husband is 5 years removed from an affair. The husband went to pick up his kids at school one day because his wife couldn't pick the kids up. His affair partner is there at the school picking her own kids up and waves at the guy and the guy waves back. The guys kid tells her mother about the waving and the lady freaked out. I think the thread is called "Am I Overreacting" and to me (and seemingly everybody there responding to her) she is totally not overreacting. "No Contact" means the affair partner simply no longer exists. If you have to see them, at work or in a parking lot, obviosuly they still exist.

My wife told me that this coming week they are having some of the staff get together in a casual setting and I immediately threw red flags up in my brain. I think maybe she noticed, because she mentioned that she might not go. Needless to say, I would not be able to live peacefully like that.

Another thing worth mentioning, maybe I mentioned it earlier I'm not sure, but I am going to a festival in SF in 3 weeks and I invited her to go. Musically, it's right up her alley. She had said she is not going, but that was over a week ago now, and maybe she's changed her mind given this week has been pretty good. The flights are being bought through the festival and I need to commit flight specifics by Wednesday. I already committed to the festival that both of us would be attending. Honestly, I am a bit torn between asking her again to go or just dropping it completely. In fact, I don't think I'd go without her. I don't need to go. I was just thinking it'd be a good trip for us to take, and I'm sure we'd have a terrific time. That said, I dont want to push her or pressure her at all

Thoughts? LifeIsTooShort....what do you think?


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## turnera

I think that as long as she NEVER tries to push her affair into 'it's your fault' territory, and as long as she NEVER says, basically, 'you need to just get over it,' and as long as you continue to look at your side of the road, and as long as the two of you start respecting each other more...you might have a chance. If any of those go away, you're settling for a crappy marriage.

And I think if you're trying to R, you two need to read His Needs Her Needs TOGETHER, and follow its instructions.

btw, female here.


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## ConanHub

You are actually doing the "nice guy" part of plan A and maybe it is softening her up a bit.

Good luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

I think you are going about this in a sound fashion. The daily updates are no longer necessary. But it helps to journal and imagine readers with whom you share a discourse. You are not only taking or giving. It's an exchange.

Lifeistooshort gave a very good analysis in my opinion. It would have been much harder for a guy to see things. That is why Leo Tolstoy is so amazing. He could put himself in the shoes of an adulteress whose husband had failed her. It takes imagination to empathize across gender.

Jld has clicked like, so you have another woman here who will tell you that you must be a rock for your wife. She is allowed to rage more before the storm abates.

The job is a great danger. When a man and woman have consummated an emotional relationship with sex. The sight of the affair partner not can but will cause a physiological reaction. It is a big setback if your wife sees him and her heart beats and her panties get damp. Even if they don't talk. Even if he doesn't see her. This will continue to be a danger for 6 months or even longer.

When you have sex with your wife again, you will erase OM's presence. Obviously, it has to be sex that bonds you, i.e., she has to desire you. If you go through the so-called hysterical bonding and improve your communication and your wife appreciates you again, she may be able to see AP and not be tempted.

But it would be best if she left the job. But she has to get this idea herself.

If you want to take her to the concert, make the arrangements for the babysitting and present it as a done deal.

A key part of all of this is that you thinking on your feet. Hope is not dead. She'll have to appreciate your strength. Moreover, at some point when you are out grocery shopping or at the cider mill or kids sports event, some woman is going to linger her eye on you for an extra moment and your wife may reevaluate your worth. It can't hurt if she is struck by a possessive instinct.


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## EleGirl

I'm glad to see that you have found a very positive place now. You sound a whole lot stronger.

I see no harm in asking her to go with you to the music festival again, just to see if she's changed her mind. Just let her know that you would love to do this with her.


----------



## ConanHub

lifeistooshort said:


> I've avoided getting much involved in this thread because I recognize that it's a trigger for me, and since I sometimes lack a filter I'll shoot off at the mouth. Not the affair part but a husband who treats his wife poorly and is then the victim when things blow up in his face.
> I had this with my ex hb.....he did many of the things you describe: he was angry, quite nasty to me, generally avoided spending time with me, you get the picture. Yet when I filed for divorce he lost his mind....cried that he was sorry, wanted counseling, was worried about child support and finances, worried about the kids being in a broken home (which was laughable to me because not only was he nasty to me right in front of them but he really didn't have that much to do with them). He flat out told me that he thought we were in this "come hell or high water".....translation: I didn't think it mattered how I treated you because I didn't think you were going anywhere.
> 
> I don't know that you were nasty on the level my ex was but you acknowledge you weren't a very good husband. Which leads me to my question: are you sure you were really as happy with your wife as you think? I get that you're worried about finances and the kids but what about the personal relationship with your wife? I mean, if she was really a priority to you I feel like you wouldn't have been going on trips without her and would've been making time because you would've missed her. My ex also basically lived his life without me until he wanted dinner or sex, then all of a sudden I had use. It's even clearer to me now that I'm remarried to someone who does value time with me as he makes lots of plans for us to do stuff, and he'd never plan a trip without me unless there was a compelling reason to leave me behind. Would you have spoken to your boss the same way you spoke to your wife? If not that should tell you something. People here are very fond of quoting marital vows but what about the vow to love and cherish? That is often conveniently forgotten.
> 
> I'm of the belief that people show you who they are and what they value when they think nobody's watching, and your actions suggest you don't really value your wife all that much. Now you do value your life with her, but your actual relationship with her? Just think about it and take a look at this article:
> 
> https://coachjackito.com/blog/i-changed-wife-come-back/
> 
> This may actually sum up your wife. We all know she's not going to have a future with this d0uche at work and your wife probably knows it too, she just has so much resentment that she feels you deserve what she did. Please note that I'm not suggesting you do, just that I think that's what's going through her mind. I'm not going to argue whether her having an affair was worse then your treatment of her, but it was a terrible decision on her part.
> 
> So once again, how happy were you really with your wife? I don't even know what to tell you now because this whole thing has become about her affair, and maybe that's how it has to be for now. But maybe if you're still interested in getting her to try you could take a look at that article.....clearly friends and family pressuring her is only making her dig her heels in deeper. Probably because she feels they don't really understand how she was treated. I guess continuing to detach and filing is probably all you can do now but give this some thought in case she does come out of this and you're still interested.


This is great for a disconnected wife and a husband trying to get her back.

I think it can be very useful to grid.

She didn't walk away however. She started banging an idiot at work.

Yeah. Affairs are worse than neglect or any other marriage problem because it is extramarital. It is not something caused by anyone other than the cheater deciding to be an idiot and murder the marriage.

Maybe that was her intent. To murder her marriage as painfully as possible.

OP wasn't beating her up or cheating himself.

Fvcking a boy at work is a little higher on the shytty things to do list.

I hope OP has a healthy goal in wanting someone like this back but if he gets her, she is going to need a hell of a lot of work and will have major heavy lifting to do concerning repairing the damage she has done.

She has done a shytload to not just her husband but her children here too.

Her reputation is shyt and that, unfortunately, can and does spill over to the kids, especially daughters.

Hopefully gridcom is thinking objectively.

Objectively, is she worth it? Is she really what you want?

If you can step back and take a very clear headed look and still say yes then more power to you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

When infidelity causes a BS to consider R there many different factors that may weigh in: children, finances, religious values, fear of the unknown, fear of being alone, family, reputation.

Someone like Gridcom is likely to go through these and conclude that his desire is based on more than hurt ego.

In fact, he already noted that if they reconcile his WW is going suffer more once the love high is not there to elevate her mood.

Music is often the refuge people who are in unhappy love affairs. Music becomes the sound track to an emotional life that is surreal.

Ironically the BS frequently wants to join the WS in the madness as a new love object in place of the usurper.

It is strange that we can long to conquer distant lands that once occupied prove to be pure Hell. 

Gridcom now knows both himself and his WW better than he did before.

Does he know them well enough? Can one go on a gut feeling at this point?


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## gridcom

LongWalk said:


> When infidelity causes a BS to consider R there many different factors that may weigh in: children, finances, religious values, fear of the unknown, fear of being alone, family, reputation.
> 
> Someone like Gridcom is likely to go through these and conclude that his desire is based on more than hurt ego.
> 
> In fact, he already noted that if they reconcile his WW is going suffer more once the love high is not there to elevate her mood.
> 
> Music is often the refuge people who are in unhappy love affairs. Music becomes the sound track to an emotional life that is surreal.
> 
> Ironically the BS frequently wants to join the WS in the madness as a new love object in place of the usurper.
> 
> It is strange that we can long to conquer distant lands that once occupied prove to be pure Hell.
> 
> Gridcom now knows both himself and his WW better than he did before.
> 
> Does he know them well enough? Can one go on a gut feeling at this point?


Valid points. Nobody can really know for sure how much of this is "Poor Husbandry" versus "Poor Character" Not even me. Not her. Especially not now while we are swimming in the deep end. Even if right now my wife and I are following the same narrative, that doesn't mean that the past we are both launching from moment to moment is the truth. 

I do also agree with ConanHub and the general attitude that an affair is far, far worse than neglect. My analogy is that what I did was rub her leg for 13 years until it became red, sore, and infected. What she did was throw dynamite onto my lap and blow my legs across the street. 

All the factors you mentioned that need to be weighed when considering reconciliation are all part of the ingredients. But, you missed a few. One being love. I do get great joy just being around my wife. Even today, we went to a diner got some brunch. Very simple. Dark clouds above both of our heads. Yet, it felt natural. It felt GOOD. I wanted to be there, with her. The love is not an intense heated passionate love. It's a deep rooted love and appreciation for who she is and who I am with her. I can never compete with new, intense love. To even try would scream phony. That's why affairs suck.

Another factor is guilt. Again, affair aside, for 13 years and for whatever remains, the woman deserved the best of me and she didn't get it. How can I repay her? Repayment may mean allowing someone to take my place. I've come to terms with that. As long as she does it with class and honor and respect, I'll respect her wishes. As long as she does it with a clear mind not corrupted by her feelings for another man, I'll respect her wishes. I'll have no choice but to respect her wishes no matter how she goes about it. That doesn't mean I'll respect her if she does it in a sc*mbaggy way. And if she chooses to do it that way, obviously sooner or later she wont respect herself either. I'm pretty confident she is aware of this.

The article from the other night suggests at the core of this issue is her belief that there is a better life out there for her WITHOUT me. I don't agree with her, but it's not my life and thus not my place to make that decision

I feel like I've grown up a whole hell of a lot in the last 9 weeks.


----------



## anchorwatch

Yes you have. It's a normal progression you've followed. When you know better, you do better.


----------



## LongWalk

Funny that you mention legs getting blown off. Today in the weekend magazine there was the cover human interest story about a man who got legs blown off, in Afghanistan. His deployment began three months after he got engaged. So he returned to a fiancée a very different man in most respects. The way the journalist laid the article out was designed to keep people reading. That she was going to stick by him but this was not revealed until 2/3 of the article had gone by. The pictures of just how short the stumps were came up right after the photo of his wife hugging him. Her face was not fully revealed, keeping the mystery alive. 

He wondered of course if she was going to leave him. She loved him enough to stay and face a life with so much extra work. But there were pictures of the prosthetic metal limbs that screwed into the titanium mounts knitted to the stubs of his femur. There would always be a rawness into his body. He had fill the cracks around the mounts with vaseline before swimming. The article did not discuss their sex life. How did that work? Were they going to experiment having sex with his legs on? It was about as painful a feel-good story as you can imagine.

But as you say love is only way you can explain it.


----------



## lifeistooshort

gridcom said:


> Hi All -
> 
> I know I had said I was going to take breather from this place, but I was about to write a quick journal entry and figured I'd just write it here.
> 
> I really don't want to get into the habit of doing play-by-play-blow-by-blow like I did earlier this week. I do wholeheartedly believe that my time is better spent working (at my job), enjoying my children, and focusing on my wife directly than debating with people here if I should "file for the D" or "do the 180" or "the plan A", etc. That said, I do find some comfort in talking to you all as most of us do have one thing in common, thus why we are all here to begin with.
> 
> The post by LifeIsToShort on Thursday night had a lot of impact. Leave it to the lone (?) woman to come onto the thread and get to the heart of the matter. The link she sent was so spot on that not only did I print it out, but I sent it to my wife as well as a handful of other people who I had previously sent articles "condemning" my wife. LifeIsTooShort wrote the following: "clearly friends and family pressuring her is only making her dig her heels in deeper. Probably because she feels they don't really understand how she was treated." and that was the main reason why I wanted to send it along to some of the people who have been pressuring her. My wife told me that the article was spot on, but I didn't need her to tell me that. I already knew as she has said much of the same. Again, the article doesn't address the matter of infidelity, but it doesn't matter. That article is a map (along with the bible) that will get me where I need to go. She is going to have to deal with the infidelity on her own first before we can deal with it as a couple, which I believe she is doing.
> 
> She has been noticeably nicer this last week, coinciding with me simply "backing off". I also think some of the fog is lifting. "SOME" being the imperative word there. I don't know if she is doing it consciously or subconsciously, but if you have FIRM intentions of divorcing your husband/mate/lover of 19 years, you simply don't engage him the way she has chosen to engage me this week. She has been friendly and engaging. I am trying not getting my hopes up too high as she simply may not be "applying tactics" much the way I haven't applied tactics. It could very well be that when she thinks about it, she wants a divorce, but when she isn't thinking about it, she can't help herself but to be my companion out of habit. Whatever, I'm rolling with it.
> 
> I asked her if she wanted to see "War Room" tonight and she's into it, so we are going. Can't hurt, right? Again, not getting my hopes up. This is the same woman that two weeks ago read parts of "Not Just Friends" and came into my office telling me that the book just reinforced that she needs to get rid of me.
> 
> I can't help but think we are ever so slowly starting to roll in the right direction. I can't get ahead of myself, which is easier said than done. I know that even under the best of circumstances, there are giant potholes in the road ahead. She's going to have to be as committed as I am right now, and she is nowhere close to that nor will she be anytime soon. Maybe she doesn't realize it yet, but any reconciliation between us is going to require her to leave her job. It's the one absolute deal breaker to me. She is going to have to choose me over the job. I'm sure she thinks she can get over this guy and still see him as a co-worker or even as a very casual friend, but as "Not Just Friends" and countless others have noted, once you cross the line you cannot cross back. I was just reading another thread on here about a woman who's husband is 5 years removed from an affair. The husband went to pick up his kids at school one day because his wife couldn't pick the kids up. His affair partner is there at the school picking her own kids up and waves at the guy and the guy waves back. The guys kid tells her mother about the waving and the lady freaked out. I think the thread is called "Am I Overreacting" and to me (and seemingly everybody there responding to her) she is totally not overreacting. "No Contact" means the affair partner simply no longer exists. If you have to see them, at work or in a parking lot, obviosuly they still exist.
> 
> My wife told me that this coming week they are having some of the staff get together in a casual setting and I immediately threw red flags up in my brain. I think maybe she noticed, because she mentioned that she might not go. Needless to say, I would not be able to live peacefully like that.
> 
> Another thing worth mentioning, maybe I mentioned it earlier I'm not sure, but I am going to a festival in SF in 3 weeks and I invited her to go. Musically, it's right up her alley. She had said she is not going, but that was over a week ago now, and maybe she's changed her mind given this week has been pretty good. The flights are being bought through the festival and I need to commit flight specifics by Wednesday. I already committed to the festival that both of us would be attending. Honestly, I am a bit torn between asking her again to go or just dropping it completely. In fact, I don't think I'd go without her. I don't need to go. I was just thinking it'd be a good trip for us to take, and I'm sure we'd have a terrific time. That said, I dont want to push her or pressure her at all
> 
> Thoughts? LifeIsTooShort....what do you think?




Why not ask her again? Tell her that you wanted to throw it out again before the window closed, and you won't even ask for sex. You just want to have a good time hanging out with her, then drop it.

If you're going to to reconcile this affair will eventually have to be dealt with but she's not in a good place for that. That leaves you the options of telling her to fvck off and filing or giving it some time to see if she comes around. I think you want and have chosen the latter.

Remember that while bringing a third party into the marriage is terribly damaging, poor treatment can have some of the same effects. It blows up trust and wrecks the marital bond. Many guys like to downplay this because they don't want to acknowledge it but it's true. And men do experience this: I've seen many a thread on TAM where a guy is sexually neglected, loses attraction for his wife, she realizes he's got a foot out the door and tries but he can't regain trust and attraction. These guys get all kinds of sympathy because mens sex lives are in their own class.

If her anger and resentment subsides she may come to the conclusion that you didn't deserve this and at that point you can bring up the job situation. If you do it now she'll tell you to fvck off, and who could blame her for not wanting to quit her job if she's not sure she wants to stay married?

Keep on this path and give yourself a time limit at which time you can decide if this is a go. If it is start dealing with the affair and if not throw in the towell.

And remember that being a nice guy doesn't mean no boundaries. It means you're not a pr!ck.

I'm happy that article spoke to you two. It spoke to me as well, it was just too late for me and my ex. He wouldn't have read it or understood it anyway. 

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

IMO, you should BUY her a ticket (write off the expense, no matter the outcome), and wrap it up in some sexy, seductive type of gift (for what you'll do at the hotel once you get there), give her a hug and a kiss, then hand her the gift and say 'we're leaving at 7.' And walk away.

Take her breath away.

That is what women want.


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## ConanHub

I didn't forget love grid.

I just have a very high and strict definition of love that is far removed from feelings.

I'm certain you feel love and nothing wrong with that.

Love in my definition is action.

You are showing my definition of love by your actions toward your WW.

She isn't and hasn't been showing you anything but hatred by her actions for some time now.

Love aside, even my definition of it, marriage is something that I have observed that most don't understand and aren't up to the requirements.

You have shown you aren't up to it in the past and she sure as hell is showing she isn't fit for marriage either.

That is my take. Love or not, marriage requires a fairly high ideal and when I see it shyt on I have no respect for the sham that some try to hold up as a blighted offering calling it marriage.

I care about the health of the betrayed spouse and children first and then any other victims of infidelity. Next, I do care about the health of the cheater.
Once those are being tended to and looking on the mend I might start being interested if the parties involved want to start over.

I damn sure don't respect someone else's marriage that they thought so little of that they neglected it or fvcking shyt on it with infidelity.

I start respecting someone's marriage when they have been respecting it themselves long enough to be bullet proof. Meaning, no more playing with fire and treating something beautiful like used toilet paper.

I know you feel love for her and you are loving her during this time but you don't have a marriage.

I'm just sharing my POV.

Not trying to discourage your efforts.

Your a ridiculous knuckle head that has somehow won me over.

Probably somewhere along the line you stopped sounding pathetic and actually got stronger. Maybe I'll blame God for that. He is the great equalizer! LOL!

Might be rambling but just thought I'd share with you.

I think you are doing pretty well, all things considered.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cbnero

This is my own experience, but my ex was more than happy to act nicer long as I turned the other cheek. Meanwhile she was completing her plans to exit. If I had been able to step back and be objective I would have noticed. When I finally caught on and stood my ground she exploded. Not over losing the marriage, but because I put a stop to her cake eating party.

So food for thought - trust, but verify. One of many things that has been stressed here over and over is believe 0% of what they say and 50% of what they do. I'm sure WS would love for you to offer blanket forgiveness and rugsweep everything. Leaving her 100% in control of this scenario and you always reacting vs leading. 

Sorry but when something stinks there is a reason. Postpone dealing with it at your peril. I am 100% pro marriage but I think right now you're looking for any sign of affirmation she still loves you. And I wouldn't put 100% stock in the whole neglected wife victim deal. It takes 2 to tango but only 1 to walk off the dance floor. You assuming all the blame here may not be accurate. You aren't responsible for her happiness or her actions. She wasn't honest or loyal so why give her that much leeway? I hope you are seeing a good IC for yourself.


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## Anon Pink

gridcom said:


> The article from the other night suggests at the core of this issue is *her belief that there is a better life out there for her WITHOUT me.* I don't agree with her, but it's not my life and thus not my place to make that decision
> 
> I feel like I've grown up a whole hell of a lot in the last 9 weeks.


Hi there Grid!

Don't you just love it when people jump into your thread so very late in the game! I hate it, personally, and the only reason why I decided to jump in was the bolded part above.

That is how I felt for several years and during those years I spoke up repeatedly in the hopes of changing my marriage. The fear of the unknown is what kept me trying. I did feel that there was a better chance of having a truly happy and loving marriage...with someone else, just hadn't gotten around to accepting applications for husband number 2.  

Fear of the unknown was the only thing that kept me home during the worst of it. But you know what struck me was that during one our last conversations about divorcing I expressed my fears, financial, automotive...spider killing... My husband said he would never allow me to live in poverty, assured me that financially he'd continue to take care of me. For some women I guess that might have been the passport to freedom, but for me it just underscored that even though he was hopelessly clueless about all matters of the heart he was absolutely a stand up dependable guy. 

We made it through and are functioning oodles better now.

Your marriage isn't there yet but it can get there. You're like the fat guy who has had the giant beer belly through most of his life, bad eating habits, bad exercise habits who finally has a heart attack. Your wife's affair was the heart attack and now you've woken up.

If you two do decide to reconcile I recommend Retrouvaille. This was an extremely helpful program for us. Marriage counseling didn't work but Retrouvaille did.

Best of luck.

Go Ravens!


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## SaffronPower

Good for you, learning and trying to save your relationship and kids security.

Make the plans and let her know. 

Don't tell her your deal breaker for now. When she starts looking for a new job and having sex with you and she finally has a conversation along the lines of, "Thank you for not tossing me out on my ass when I went crazy." Then you'll know all your work has gotten the "Us" back.


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## gridcom

What's going on here? Is this thread getting hijacked by the ladies? I hope so. 

I was reading a thread earlier today about this woman who's 5th grade daughter has to take anti-anxiety medication and has to see a psychologist because her stupid parents are f*cking retards. I was crying just reading the words. My wife and I are both stupid retards for how we treated this marriage, and each other.

Happy Sunday everybody


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## gridcom

Anon Pink said:


> If you two do decide to reconcile I recommend Retrouvaille. This was an extremely helpful program for us. Marriage counseling didn't work but Retrouvaille did.


I'm checking this out now. I've been hesitant to do something like this, and my wife is even more hesitant. This was an essential element in your marriages survival?


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## lifeistooshort

Gridcom, it's just my posse showing up 

But seriously, us ladies do not agree all the time. We come from a variety of backgrounds and all have our own way of interpreting things, but we all know how women think. And it is different from how men think. 

The key is to consider all viewpoints and make your own decision as at the end of they day you know your wife and marriage and we don't. 

Is it possible this will blow up and your wife will use your efforts to screw you over? Lots of things are possible but sometimes risk is required. It's up to you to assess the situation and decide if the potential reward is worth it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gridcom

lifeistooshort said:


> Is it possible this will blow up and your wife will use your efforts to screw you over? Lots of things are possible but sometimes risk is required. It's up to you to assess the situation and decide if the potential reward is worth it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My guard is up for this and I am being vigilant. I do question my wife's character now and that's a bummer. She is capable of infidelity, she is capable of anything and everything that is less offensive than that, which covers just about everything

Many weeks ago, we were sitting at the kitchen table and having a conversation about finances and she said something to the effect of "Do you actually think I would mess with you about money?" and I was blown away by how short sighted she was. I told her "You would have sat in that same spot and said 'You actually think I would cheat on you?' Of course, I think you are capable of ANYTHING now"

LifeIsTooShort,you mentioned in your last post that someday she MAY come to understand that I didn't deserve this. To me, that is gross. Neglect on my part aside, NOBODY deserves this. This is the worst thing that I've ever experienced in my life, done to me at the hands of the woman I've loved and dedicated almost half my life to. As much as I want to reconcile and build a new marriage out of the ashes of the destroyed one, I can tell you without question that right now she is thinking that I totally deserved this. She has no guilt and no remorse and I think that is due to the affair fog she is currently in. 

ME= ALL BAD /// OTHER DUDE=ALL GOOD

She is being nice right now and I'm not sure why. Her last statement of intent to anything relating to our relationship was that it is over, she wants a divorce, and that's that. But, that's not how she is acting at all. A person committed to divorce would not engage you, would not make conversation about anything other than the kids or the divorce or money, wouldn't laugh at your jokes, certainly wouldn't cut out of work early to go with you to see a movie like War Room, wouldn't get dressed and undressed in front of you, wouldn't sleep in the same bed as you, wouldn't do anything but try to avoid you, actually.

She may be reconsidering and trying to find me in her heart. She may be faking it because of the kids, her Christian beliefs, and what would essentially be an absolutely brutal financial future for everyone involved. Or, like someone said above, she may be giving me a false sense of positive vibes because on the other end she is sharpening the blade.

I don't think it's the last one though, because in order for her to take action, she's going to have to get a real job that pays real money. And I don't think she is looking at all. And if she is, it's with very little effort.

She may be trying to fake it for the kids and because she knows that having to work a real job and get home at 6 or 7pm and be too tired and cranky to be an effective loving parent for the kids is going to suck. I don't think she would fake it. 

I'm choosing to believe that she is trying to find me in her heart, and she wants it to be real, and she wants me to come through and make changes and more importantly make them last. She isn't a faker and she isn't a bullsh*tter. 

Going back to what I said earlier about her having no guilt and no remorse..... I'm sure she feels guilty about what she did to her kids and maybe what she did to herself, to put herself in this predicament. I'm sure she feels some remorse for her friends and family that think less of her or she feels like she let them down. I'm sure she is angry at herself for being so dumb. 

But, she feels no guilt or remorse towards me at all. In fact, I'm sure she'd love to get through this without ever having to address it or confront it, and that simply isnt going to happen. Because, obviously, if we reconcile without her understanding that what she did to me was awful, we are setting ourselves up for a repeat. If she doesn't one day come to understand how awful what she did to me was, then the moment we have an argument that leaves her feeling lingering anger towards me, I'm going to be facing D-Day Part 2.

I am very concerned she stopped her own IC. I don't want to ask her about it but I just don't see why she would discontinue. I fear that she is convinced she doesn't need it, which obviously she does


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## turnera

grid, in all my years doing this, the ONE truth I've learned is that communication is the one key solution. Fix your communication, become 100% open and honest with each other about EVERYTHING, and NEVER give bad consequences for your spouse telling you anything.


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## jld

I hear victim speak in your last post, grid. That is not going to empower you. 

Focus on what you can do to recreate a wholesome family life. You already have a good start: you are reading the right links, examining and correcting your past behavior, avoiding people who would encourage you to feel sorry for yourself. Expand on that by focusing on what you can further do to improve your family's future. Humility, empathy, and pro-activity will empower you.

*Be vigilant in rejecting self-pity, grid.* It is no real man's friend. Embrace empowerment, instead.


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## Anon Pink

gridcom said:


> I'm checking this out now. I've been hesitant to do something like this, and my wife is even more hesitant. This was an essential element in your marriages survival?


Yes it was for a number of reasons not the least of which my husband actually made the call, made the plans, rescheduled several things so that we could attend. His first step into participating rather than receiving.




> LifeIsTooShort,you mentioned in your last post that someday she MAY come to understand that I didn't deserve this. To me, that is gross. Neglect on my part aside, NOBODY deserves this. This is the worst thing that I've ever experienced in my life, done to me at the hands of the woman I've loved and dedicated almost half my life to. As much as I want to reconcile and build a new marriage out of the ashes of the destroyed one, I can tell you without question that right now she is thinking that I totally deserved this. She has no guilt and no remorse and I think that is due to the affair fog she is currently in.


I don't think it is the affair fog. I think it is anger resentment fog. 

You're right, she feels no guilt because she feels you did deserve it. We can argue till the cows come home that you didn't, that no one in fact does, but that's what she thinks and feels. I suspect once/if you get your "new marriage" underway, she will come to see that what she did is something that you did not deserve to suffer through. That two wrongs do not make anything right. 

I also agree that she is giving mixed signals because like it or not, she is still connected to you, she's just too angry to admit it.

Keep doing what you're doing because she is obviously responding.

I think it might be a hard sell to get her to attend Retrouvaille but if you can swing it, I believe it will be extremely helpful. This is emergency triage for the failed marriage. It sets the course for treatment and recovery. We had to dig very deep during several portions.


ETA: proud member of LifeIsTooShort's Posse!


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## gridcom

Anon Pink said:


> I think it might be a hard sell to get her to attend Retrouvaille but if you can swing it, I believe it will be extremely helpful. This is emergency triage for the failed marriage. It sets the course for treatment and recovery. We had to dig very deep during several portions.


There is actually one in Nov. near us. I did sign up and ask them to send me some info. 

We spoke tonight. Our first talk in 9 days. I asked about going to SF. She said no 

It wasn't the best conversation we've ever had, but far from the worst. She definitely has concerns about letting me in and then letting her down. I wish there was something I could say that could solve that issue, or something I could do even to ease those concerns. But, we all know there is nothing I can do except to keep doing what I am doing and either she's going to let me in or not.

Towards the end of the conversation, she started getting a bit hostile, mocking my efforts and asking me how many more articles I was going to read, how many more books, etc.... God, that's frustrating. I just ended it there before any drama ensued. She's dealing with a ton of bitterness towards me (and I towards her) and its going to take time on both sides for that to get to a level where we dont feel like being a$$holes towards each other sometimes. This was why I didnt want to talk about things anymore, because 

less talk 
+ more acts of service 
+ more displays of gentleness 
+ a clever and/or slightly offensive joke
= going in the right direction. 

And that's not just an equation for right now, thats an equation for life. 

Too bad about SF though. I had myself convinced she was ready to make that move. I think that trip would have been a huge boost to our marriage. Oh well, there's always the next one :smile2:


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## Archangel2

Anon Pink said:


> ...I think it might be a hard sell to get her to attend Retrouvaille but if you can swing it, I believe it will be extremely helpful. This is emergency triage for the failed marriage. It sets the course for treatment and recovery. We had to dig very deep during several portions.


Gridcom - I realize I am very late coming to your thread, but I agree with Anon Pink. Retrouvaille may be way more important to saving your marriage than going to SF.


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## LongWalk

Grid,

Most BH do not get so many women chiming in. TAM has, and this can be seen if you peruse threads from much earlier in the site's history, not been willing to allow adulterers to speak or participate. This also means that men who examine relationship dysfunction as a factor in adultery will always hear the truism both spouses are 50 percent responsible for the (poor) state of their marriage before the affair, but the cheater is 100 percent responsible for the affair. This is logically true and morally incisive. However, is it the only possible basis for analysis? Mind you academic discussion at the philosophy department's Thursday ethics bag lunch seminar is not what we are talking about. Your understanding is aimed at getting the ship off the reef and patching the hole before the next storm. Even the tides are making the damage worse.

You ran around yelling at your wife and got her to stop fvcking OM. That was emergency action that succeeded in giving you a chance. I gather that Retrouvaille is pragmatic training camp that coach a couple to measure the hole, cut some timber and fill in a bit of the hole. They have to decide that it felt good to work together to get the ship seaworthy again. That doesn't mean the job will be easy. How many planks are necessary? What if you forget the tar? But doing and seeing the marriage as something to repair is way better than calculating the scrap value.

The only couples who get to divorce and sail away from each other on beautiful yachts are the very wealthy.

I assume OM doesn't have a much better financial situation than you. In fact, the affair was not going so long that he and your wife plotted some future together. Did he want all of the baggage that your wife would pull over to join him.

If you open up communication, it would be interesting to hear what is/was going through her head.

From a transactional point of view your wife has little to gain by playing easy to get back into your marriage. She is thinking about it. There is a lot of hard work ahead, including her taking moral responsibility for the choice to allow herself to fall in love with OM and act on it. The moment she is on board and discovers that she doesn't like the ship anymore, neither of you will be happy. If she tries to scuttle it again by renewing the affair, then you know her moral character is defect and unsalvageable.


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## gridcom

LongWalk said:


> The only couples who get to divorce and sail away from each other on beautiful yachts are the very wealthy.
> 
> If she tries to scuttle it again by renewing the affair, then you know her moral character is defect and unsalvageable.


Excellent post, LongWalk. Love the yacht analogy above. Regarding renewing the affair meaning her moral character is defect and unsalvageable, I worry that she is still emotionally tied up to this guy and, even if she knows it's the wrong thing to do, the threat is very real. 

I also worry about other guys now. Like Anon said above regaring auditions for husband #2, I feel like auditions are open here. My wife would love to solve the riddle of how she can get herself away from me. And a single man with a little bit of scratch is the answer to that riddle. We live in an area of wealth.

She is going to a wedding this weekend. She decided not to bring me, even though I borderline begged to go. I am worried about this for the obvious reasons. There will be other single guys there. I have a feeling that wedding ring is coming off. The whole thing is making me freak out a bit


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## jld

gridcom said:


> Towards the end of the conversation, she started getting a bit hostile, mocking my efforts and asking me how many more articles I was going to read, how many more books, etc.... God, that's frustrating. * I just ended it there before any drama ensued.* She's dealing with a ton of bitterness towards me (and I towards her) and its going to take time on both sides for that to get to a level where we dont feel like being a$$holes towards each other sometimes.


I don't think "ending it" at that particular moment was a wise move. Every time she becomes hostile is a chance for you to help her release that bitterness from her heart. Shutting her down keeps all that inside her. It protects your feelings, but does not solve your problems.

I know it's hard, grid, but I think you just have to hear her hurts, which are underneath all that anger. Swallow your pride and hear her heart. Empathize. Seek to understand, and to offer compassion.

Keep focusing on analyzing and correcting all the ways you hurt her in the past, and providing a healthy and healing vision of the future. You are going to have to die to self. You have to put your wife and kids first. It is what truly Christian men, those who walk in the footsteps of Jesus himself, do.

I posted this here a few months ago. You may want to reread it, along with life's excellent article. And I am very happy you have contacted Retrouvaille. Anon Pink has seen much healing in her marriage, which is 30 (!) years old, and stronger than ever, today!

Reconciliation with a Hardened Wife


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## cbnero

Look man - she is NOT being honest with you. Retrouvaille would be a terrible idea right now. She won't go to a concert with you, told you she doesn't want to be married to you. Why in the world do you think she would go to a couples weekend with you???

You cannot nice your way out of this. I'm sorry this is happening. If your wife were able to objectively look at the situation some of these posts would be good advice but right now your wife is a nut job who hates your guts. You are operating on the theory that if you are nice enough she will come to her senses. Good luck with that. She already slept with another guy. Checked out of the marriage. Everything is ruined. Maybe you can rebuild it one day but that takes the BOTH of you. Not just you, not just her. 

Get yourself into IC. See an attorney. Stop trying to engage your wife in conversation. If you want to rebuild your marriage one day maybe you can, but right now you need to let it go. She's nuts! One of you needs to be logical and rational for the kids sake. Sorry, but that's you. Do you think she was thinking about the kids or you as she got plowed by some other dude? Be a man and stand up for yourself and the kids. You know right from wrong. Trust your gut.


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## lifeistooshort

I'm completely with anon, it's not the affair talking. It's anger and powerlessness talking. She didn't know how to wield power against you. .... if this anger dissipates she will see that you didn't deserve it.

As for the trip, you gave it a shot. Like you said, there will be others. This kind of detachment and resentment is difficult to come back from but it can be done. 

Next time she asks how many books you're going to read do not take the bait..... tell her as many as you need to become a better person, whether for her or your next partner. 

Be patient, like Longwalk pointed out there's nothing in it for her to easily jump back in. Really if I take her affair out of it I'd say she's right to make you work for it. This could easily become a situation where everything becomes about her affair and none of her concerns get addressed. Deal with her first, then your concerns will get addressed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gridcom

jld said:


> I don't think "ending it" at that particular moment was a wise move. Every time she becomes hostile is a chance for you to help her release that bitterness from her heart. Shutting her down keeps all that inside her. It protects your feelings, but does not solve your problems.
> 
> I know it's hard, grid, but I think you just have to hear her hurts, which are underneath all that anger. Swallow your pride and hear her heart. Empathize. Seek to understand, and to offer compassion.
> 
> Keep focusing on analyzing and correcting all the ways you hurt her in the past, and providing a healthy and healing vision of the future. You are going to have to die to self. You have to put your wife and kids first. It is what truly Christian men, those who walk in the footsteps of Jesus himself, do.
> 
> I posted this here a few months ago. You may want to reread it, along with life's excellent article. And I am very happy you have contacted Retrouvaille. Anon Pink has seen much healing in her marriage, which is 30 (!) years old, and stronger than ever, today!
> 
> Reconciliation with a Hardened Wife


JLD, I remember this article very well. I am happy to say that I have been following this from the start, and took it to heart the first time I read it. There have been a few bumps in the road. Certainly when I found out my wife had revisited her AP two successive nights in a parking lot, I went into full on affair-killing mode, and this article and what it preaches had to take a back seat to the imminent threat.

But, honestly, from the moment I found out that my wife no longer wanted to be with me, I did employ much of what is written here, just naturally. That first night we sat together and discussed what was happening, alot of what this article says to do, I did. I am HAPPY to say!

I agree with all of it. It was nice to re-read it this morning. If there is any hope in this marriage, it is that I do understand where my wife is coming from and I do feel empathy for what she has been through. It didnt take much convincing for me to understand what a sh*t I've been. 

As you know, I started this 10 weeks ago today not a religious man, but I would say I was "religious curious". This whole sequence of events has brought me to the church and I am praying all the time. My prayers have evolved and are now purposely expressive in that when I pray, I close my eyes and see the words written as I say them in my mind. I'm new at this.

That said, I am happy to say, delighted actually, that in re-reading that article, I found myself saying "I'm doing that! I've been doing that!" Again, not PERFECTLY and maybe not consistently, but definitely getting better with it daily.

Thanks everybody. Have a good day.


----------



## cbnero

lifeistooshort said:


> I'm completely with anon, it's not the affair talking. It's anger and powerlessness talking. She didn't know how to wield power against you. .... if this anger dissipates she will see that you didn't deserve it.
> 
> As for the trip, you gave it a shot. Like you said, there will be others. This kind of detachment and resentment is difficult to come back from but it can be done.
> 
> Next time she asks how many books you're going to read do not take the bait..... tell her as many as you need to become a better person, whether for her or your next partner.
> 
> Be patient, like Longwalk pointed out there's nothing in it for her to easily jump back in. Really if I take her affair out of it I'd say she's right to make you work for it. This could easily become a situation where everything becomes about her affair and none of her concerns get addressed. Deal with her first, then your concerns will get addressed.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree with some of this but then he is living his life and marriage with a gun to his head. Better be perfect or Keblang! She is banging other dudes and out of here! Sounds like a terrible place to live. Someone keeping score like that. Always being evaluated. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...et-them-go.html#/forumsite/20516/topics/24796

If she wanted to address her concerns she should have done that before cheating. So yes right now that needs to take precendent. That's her problem and if she doesn't like it too bad. Nothing he did justifies that behavior. So she either needs to realize it or it will be a complete justification by her to dump more on him. His actions and her actions are not related, no matter how much she wants it to be. She is responsible for her own actions. He is responsible for his. She had a ton of options before cheating. Now she has but one. And she has no empathy or remorse. This situation right now is code red.


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## farsidejunky

Grid:

When you pray, pray not that your wife soften her heart, but that God's will be done. Often we hang on to things selfishly, when He has other things in store for us. 

Just pray that His will for your marriage be revealed.


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## LongWalk

I am atheist but see nothing wrong with going to church or going to one if it helps. After all, true Christians should welcome agnostics every Sunday for it gives them another shot at conversion.

Obviously the Christianity (and all major religions) offer wisdom.

Reb Bradley states:



> 6. The greatest cause for concern for any man whose wife hardens her heart, must not be that she has hurt him, is alienating the children, or is destroying the marriage. An abandoned husband’s greatest cause for concern is the condition of his wife’s well being – as Scripture warns, a bitter or hardened heart is a dangerous condition for any soul (Eph 4:18; Heb 3:13, 15; Deut 31:27; 1 Sam 15:23; Acts 7:51; 28:27). A husband must look beyond his own frustration and be concerned that his wife might be deceived and hardened toward God. He must be concerned for her, because her steps are walking her away from intimate fellowship with God. A hardened woman merits her husband’s compassion, not his arrogance.


The psychological truth in this is undeniable. To leave a marriage from a person whom one once loved unconditionally, a person has to violate him or herself. For your wife to be so angry and disappointed in you that she committed adultery is something that harmed her. You can genuinely worry about the state of her soul.

There is thread, Wife in an affair - Limbo, whose OP (CT Play) is struggling. His WW left home but is trying to engage him now with a barrage of requests for help with so many minor issues concerning the children. She left home but the other day manically raced back into to clean and scrub. She wishes he would come over and set up her new apartment. You know the IKEA assembly shyte test. 

(In fact, IKEA products are designed so that men can look like successful hunter gatherers by putting them together; they are also easy enough for women with hardened hearts to put together if need be)

How could CT Play get help to save his wife from herself and in so doing restore his family? Actually, the advice he is getting is more practical. He has to save himself first. She is lost.

So the central idea of Christianity, that there is always forgiveness and redemption, seems to me unrealistic. People screw up enough and there are no more chances.

If your wife goes to the wedding without her wedding ring, she is proclaiming that she is single. Do you know anyone who is going to be there who can check for you? What will you do if she takes this step?


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## turnera

gridcom said:


> She is being nice right now and I'm not sure why. Her last statement of intent to anything relating to our relationship was that it is over, she wants a divorce, and that's that. But, that's not how she is acting at all.


She's just doing what all cheaters do: seeing if you'll just sweep it under the rug. When discovered, they make all kinds of grand statements when their back is up against the wall. In the height of the emotion. But now that YOU have calmed down, she's waiting to see if you're going to burn her at the cross. If not, she'll just slip back into the marriage, just the way she wanted.
What kind of talks have you had about this?


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## turnera

gridcom said:


> Towards the end of the conversation, she started getting a bit hostile, mocking my efforts and asking me how many more articles I was going to read, how many more books, etc.... God, that's frustrating. I just ended it there before any drama ensued. She's dealing with a ton of bitterness towards me (and I towards her) and its going to take time on both sides for that to get to a level where we dont feel like being a$$holes towards each other sometimes. This was why I didnt want to talk about things anymore, because
> 
> less talk
> + more acts of service
> + more displays of gentleness
> + a clever and/or slightly offensive joke
> = going in the right direction.


:banghead:
You wish wish wish wish wish.

You WISH she was a loving CARING woman who wants and respects YOU. 

But she isn't.

She's making it exceedingly clear, and now you're back to 'if I suck up to her good enough, she'll let me stay around her.'

Read the stuff above, pretend it's your cousin or brother saying this about a woman who cheated on him. Now tell me how disgusted you'd be listening to him.

You could let her see you reacting in good faith WHILE you explore divorce. Let her see you have self respect, and let her see that she can't come to see you as a worthwhile partner, you are more than happy to move on and find someone who will. As long as you look like a lovesick puppy, SHE HAS NO REASON to work on anything.


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## ConanHub

turnera said:


> :banghead:
> You wish wish wish wish wish.
> 
> You WISH she was a loving CARING woman who wants and respects YOU.
> 
> But she isn't.
> 
> She's making it exceedingly clear, and now you're back to 'if I suck up to her good enough, she'll let me stay around her.'
> 
> Read the stuff above, pretend it's your cousin or brother saying this about a woman who cheated on him. Now tell me how disgusted you'd be listening to him.
> 
> You could let her see you reacting in good faith WHILE you explore divorce. Let her see you have self respect, and let her see that she can't come to see you as a worthwhile partner, you are more than happy to move on and find someone who will. As long as you look like a lovesick puppy, SHE HAS NO REASON to work on anything.


I agree with this. I think Anon, jld and lifeistoshort have valuable insights for you concerning your WW but you also have to show strength and confidence, calmly, that you will not be an object for her abuse. She needs to see compassion and confident strength when she is dumping on you verbally but she also needs to see that when she directly tries to shyt on you and her marriage that you will not allow it.

Do you know the folks at the wedding? Is your wife the only one invited?

Don't get close to begging again. If you know who is getting married, see if you can go and bring your daughters.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## just got it 55

ConanHub said:


> I agree with this. I think Anon, jld and lifeistoshort have valuable insights for you concerning your WW but you also have to show strength and confidence, calmly, that you will not be an object for her abuse. She needs to see compassion and confident strength when she is dumping on you verbally but she also needs to see that when she directly tries to shyt on you and her marriage that you will not allow it.
> 
> Do you know the folks at the wedding? Is your wife the only one invited?
> 
> Don't get close to begging again. If you know who is getting married, see if you can go and bring your daughters.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


CH this sums it up perfectly

55


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## gridcom

I don't really know anyone from the wedding. Her friends from college. She's going to do whatever it is she wants to do. A lot of them have had relationship issues, and now she can talk to them about her own. I'm not trying to think too much about it, but yeah it sucks. I really wanted to go with her. I like seeing her all dressed up. I like seeing her dancing, even if I often don't participate (pretty ugly scene, believe it). 

You know, she comes home last night and we finally talk and the end result is nothing has changed at all (so she says). She says she feels the same way, still can't see a future with me, still cant fathom the thought of taking a trip together somewhere, etc yet like I mentioned earlier in the thread:

"A person committed to divorce would not engage you, would not make conversation about anything other than the kids or the divorce or money, wouldn't laugh at your jokes, certainly wouldn't cut out of work early to go with you to see a movie like War Room, wouldn't get dressed and undressed in front of you, wouldn't sleep in the same bed as you, wouldn't do anything but try to avoid you, actually."

Yikes, now I am quoting myself...

Anyway, this is some frustrating sh*t right here. It's very obvious there is a light there in the distance. Why can't she acknowledge it on some level? What is the harm? I really dont understand that, being that the actions are not matching the words


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## farsidejunky

Resentment is powerful, brother.

Patience.


----------



## lifeistooshort

cbnero said:


> I agree with some of this but then he is living his life and marriage with a gun to his head. Better be perfect or Keblang! She is banging other dudes and out of here! Sounds like a terrible place to live. Someone keeping score like that. Always being evaluated.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...et-them-go.html#/forumsite/20516/topics/24796
> 
> If she wanted to address her concerns she should have done that before cheating. So yes right now that needs to take precendent. That's her problem and if she doesn't like it too bad. Nothing he did justifies that behavior. So she either needs to realize it or it will be a complete justification by her to dump more on him. His acti
> 
> ons and her actions are not related, no matter how much she wants it to be. She is responsible for her own actions. He is responsible for his. She had a ton of options before cheating. Now she has but one. And she has no empathy or remorse. This situation right now is code red.



He doesn't have to be perfect, just improving. If that's not enough the marriage isn't salvageable. And it may not be.

Really his course depends on what he wants and what it's worth to him. He's certainly within his rights to ditch her, but he doesn't want to do that if it can be helped. Given that she's not in a good place to address her role yet but clearly he's in a great place to assess his. His introspection is impressive and will result in him becoming a better person. 

He's willing to see if her anger subsides and she deals with things. If not he made every effort and as long as he protects himself he's lost nothing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub

Hey grid. How long has she been dancing without you and with whom?

When did this habit start?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gridcom

ConanHub said:


> Hey grid. How long has she been dancing without you and with whom?
> 
> When did this habit start?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Eh, not the slow dancing. I'll always do the slow dancing if she wants to. It's the "Uptown Funk" stuff I'm no good at. She's excellent at it. 

For our wedding, we had to watch a DVD of dance lessons. We had to move the furniture WAY out of the way


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## ConanHub

gridcom said:


> Eh, not the slow dancing. I'll always do the slow dancing if she wants to. It's the "Uptown Funk" stuff I'm no good at. She's excellent at it.
> 
> For our wedding, we had to watch a DVD of dance lessons. We had to move the furniture WAY out of the way


The way you posted about it gave me pause. Were you just referring to your lack of skill dancing or how you felt about her dancing without you and with who?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gridcom

ConanHub said:


> The way you posted about it gave me pause. Were you just referring to your lack of skill dancing or how you felt about her dancing without you and with who?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Lack of skill dancing. My wife, until this episode, has never given me any reason not to trust her. And vice versa. Which makes this whole ordeal hurt that much more. It's like getting into a car wreck. It's one thing if you have just a moment to brace yourself for the impact. it's another if you are completely blindsided. 

I know now based on the way I neglected my marriage I should have had been prepared. So, I can really only blame myself for that part.

Wont happen again.


----------



## ConanHub

gridcom said:


> Lake of skill dancing. My wife, until this episode, has never given me any reason not to trust her. And vice versa. Which makes this whole ordeal hurt that much more. It's like getting into a car wreck. It's one thing if you have just a moment to brace yourself for the impact. it's another if you are completely blindsided.
> 
> I know now based on the way I neglected my marriage I should have had been prepared. So, I can really only blame myself for that part.
> 
> Wont happen again.


Actually figured out what you were saying about dancing right after I posted. Little slow today! LOL!

Do you think the marital issues were all one sided?

Do you think your wife was perfect and wonderful and did everything right while you were the one doing all the harm and nothing right?

Do you think you did all the wrong before your wife CHOSE to behave like a goat in heat?

I'm honestly curious because I have never seen a perfect person in a marriage.

What is your observation? Be objective not subjective.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort

ConanHub said:


> Actually figured out what you were saying about dancing right after I posted. Little slow today! LOL!
> 
> Do you think the marital issues were all one sided?
> 
> Do you think your wife was perfect and wonderful and did everything right while you were the one doing all the harm and nothing right?
> 
> Do you think you did all the wrong before your wife CHOSE to behave like a goat in heat?
> 
> I'm honestly curious because I have never seen a perfect person in a marriage.
> 
> What is your observation? Be objective not subjective.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'll guess that she was not perfect but that most of the emotional power of the relationship was held him. Gridcom, is that correct?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

lifeistooshort said:


> I'll guess that she was not perfect but that most of the emotional power of the relationship was held him. Gridcom, is that correct?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think in her eyes this is definitely true.

Grid, you do not need her acknowledgment that there is hope for the marriage. You already know it. It is part of what is fueling your forbearance.

You need to do what you know is right: keep working on yourself, being rigorously honest about your shortcomings, and doing right by your wife and kids. 

If you are focusing on _her _wrongs, you are _not_ doing what that link advises.


----------



## ConanHub

lifeistooshort said:


> I'll guess that she was not perfect but that most of the emotional power of the relationship was held him. Gridcom, is that correct?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm just checking to make sure he is objective about damage done before the affair. I have seen many situations and never once a perfect spouse.

I have seen one spouse contribute more to damage or improve the relationship but never one person with perfectly clean hands where neglect and damage is concerned.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## gridcom

ConanHub said:


> Do you think the marital issues were all one sided?
> 
> Do you think your wife was perfect and wonderful and did everything right while you were the one doing all the harm and nothing right?
> 
> Do you think you did all the wrong before your wife CHOSE to behave like a goat in heat?
> 
> I'm honestly curious because I have never seen a perfect person in a marriage.
> 
> What is your observation? Be objective not subjective.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Nobody is perfect, but I think some of what both links/articles LifeIsTooShort and JLD sent over address this. I have to take the heat on the genesis of our issues, and any thing that happened as a result of my neglect is just that, a result of my neglect. 

I didn't have any issues with my wife leading up to her affair. She was all I'd ever want in a wife. Sexually fulfilling, a great mother with good values, a friend to myself and others, an excellent cook, a go-to voice when you need advice. If there was ever any shortcomings, I'd say she definitely could do a better job keeping up with the house. And it's been THE main point of contention in our marriage for much of the past few years. This issue was at the core of our most recent arguments. She is, by her own admission, a bit of a slob. I am a neat freak. Not so much a CLEAN freak, but a neat freak. I stop for gas and toss out all the garbage in the car. I see a stain on the kitchen floor I'll take a paper towel and some water and clean it up. I am guilty of coming home sometimes and making comments like "This place looks like a crack house" and boy oh boy oh boy oh boy am I paying the price now

The funny thing is I've started to chip in on the house work and that's really what I should have been doing from the beginning. i had this attitude of "Well, I work 70 hours a week, you work 30 hours a week. Cant you take 5-6 hours a week and just keep the house straight?" And honestly, it's just a weak spot for her. So what? Not a big deal now that I step back and look at things from a distance.


----------



## gridcom

This is how she communicates with me now. Her favorite radio station does a request hour every day. She has been requesting songs with lyrics that are appropriate to our situation. It drives me f*cking banana's

Here's a list of songs she's requested lately

Keane- This Is The Last Time
Fiona Apple- Parting Gift
Pixies- Cactus
Th Sonics- Have Love Will Travel
Ben Folds - You Dont Know Me
The Police- Every Breath You Take
Calexico- Alone Again Or
Brandi Carlisle- The Story

Basically all of these songs are break up/the end songs OR they are "come to me, my new love" songs

This all started when I found out she dedicated this terrible sappy juvenile song by The Postal Service called "From Great Heights" to her AP on the same request show. That song is freakin' awful.

Anyway, this is how she's chosen to communicate to me. I find it very frustrating

Anyway, sorry. NEEDED TO VENT


----------



## jld

Okay. You need to emotionally separate from whatever confusion is going on in her mind. Your focus needs to be on yourself, and what you are doing to rebuild your family, not on her confusion.

Keep your focus on becoming a better husband and father, just becoming a good man. You need an independent center, not one swayed back and forth by whatever emotions your wife is going through at any particular moment.

Grid, you can do this. Life's posse is behind you.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> Okay. You need to emotionally separate from whatever confusion is going on in her mind. Your focus needs to be on yourself, and what you are doing to rebuild your family, not on her confusion.
> 
> Keep your focus on becoming a better husband and father, just becoming a good man. You need an independent center, not one swayed back and forth by whatever emotions your wife is going through at any particular moment.
> 
> Grid, you can do this. Life's posse is behind you.


Grid, the beauty about this approach is it keeps you focused on controlling the one thing in life you truly can: yourself.


----------



## LongWalk

The musical communication is great in my opinion. Very erotic even. You're lucky that she is flirting with you like this.... Maybe OM is listening everyday.

Fiona Apple had zero tolerance for cheating. Maybe you should get her an geeky oversized TMBG T-shirt.

JLD is probably right that you had most of the power on the emotional side of your relationship.

I don't think it would be Christian to VAR her car if she driving to the wedding. Maybe she'll allow some memories of your marriage to seep in.

Just stay the course for the time being. You are undergoing a massive shyte test.


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## gridcom

I'm not going to VAR her or her car. I'm ready to handle ANYTHING that comes my way, including if she chooses to be the worst human being ever. If this marriage ends, it's ending with me holding my head high and without guilt.


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## ConanHub

I'm not suggesting you try and address anything she did wrong in your marriage or her shortcomings at this point.

I'm suggesting you don't lose sight of the fact that you didn't do everything wrong in your marriage and she is responsible for some of it.

You may have the majority blame for neglecting your marriage but absolutely none for her choice to have an affair.

Your thoughts on working 70 hours a week while she worked 30 were not wrong.

You may not have addressed the problem productively but you working 70 hours a week and coming home to do the chores most certainly was not the answer.

Just make sure you don't become a doormat. You definitely showed signs of that at the start of your thread and hints of it pop up in your posts now and then.

Being a doormat is incredibly unattractive and unhealthy for any relationship much less a marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gridcom

There was that one guy on here who put a VAR in his wife's car and he caught her having sex in the car and he listened to it and I remember reading the absolute grief in his words and I cant imagine having to have to listen to something like that. Not only was she having sex with another guy, but she was having the type of sex she never had with him AND then she followed that up by sh*t talking her husband. Good grief! And I think him and his wife stayed married after a really long and rough road. Cant remember his name, but I remember his thread was like 140 pages and over the course of 3 years. 

I have a friend of mine who tried to be an uber investigator on what his wife was up to, and his recommendation was he wish he hadn't done any of it, wish he hadn't had any access to any of it. He and his wife were very close friends of me and my wife. And of course, the wife had an affair with a co-worker, pushed my buddy out the door. He was heartbroken because he really loved her. And you know what happened next right? He immediately fell in love with another woman, who he is still with to this day. his now ex-wife ended her affair, realized she pushed her true, albeit flawed, love out the door and begged him to come back. Karma.

Although early on I was very much into staying on top of this stuff, as time has gone on I am trying to keep a faith/zen approach to this that if it is meant to be, it'll be. My wife crossed the line one time and came right home and told me about it. I fully believe it was one time. if she does it again, which is possible, then I don't think she is going to try and hide it. It will be the death of our marriage, and she knows it. I have the Location Services on her phone, and that's enough for me.

Honestly,. I am less concerned about the AP now and more concerned about her mindset of being "single in her mind" and if I am wise, it's the threat of another man that worries me


----------



## Anon Pink

I don't get "love-sick puppy" from any of your posts Gridcom. I see a man doing his best to do what he thinks is the right thing to do under very trying circumstances.

Some men do give off that vibe pretty clearly here at TAM. 

If she is still insisting she is done and moving on, do you know if she has taken any steps to this effect? I apologize if this answer was given some pages back. Im just thinking that the affair kind of happened because circumstances allowed it, not like she decided she was done and then had the affair. Been unhappy for some times, complain regularly, goes in one ear out the other, plods along some good days some rotten days, then the coworker starts making her feel ways she had wanted you to make her feel and bam she's in an affair, so now she has to follow through that she isn't a terrible person who cheats and stays married, but an unhappy wife who was planning to leave and then met the new guy. In which case she's not a very proactive kind of person? If she's not, It follows then that she will not actually be taking solid steps to end the marriage unless she is backed into a corner? Which would definitely indicate she can be brought back. 

Meh, that's just me thinking out loud..


----------



## Anon Pink

gridcom said:


> There was that one guy on here who put a VAR in his wife's car and he caught her having sex in the car and he listened to it and I remember reading the absolute grief in his words and I cant imagine having to have to listen to something like that. Not only was she having sex with another guy, but she was having the type of sex she never had with him AND then she followed that up by sh*t talking her husband. Good grief! And I think him and his wife stayed married after a really long and rough road. Cant remember his name, but I remember his thread was like 140 pages and over the course of 3 years.
> 
> I have a friend of mine who tried to be an uber investigator on what his wife was up to, and his recommendation was he wish he hadn't done any of it, wish he hadn't had any access to any of it. He and his wife were very close friends of me and my wife. And of course, the wife had an affair with a co-worker, pushed my buddy out the door. He was heartbroken because he really loved her. And you know what happened next right? He immediately fell in love with another woman, who he is still with to this day. his now ex-wife ended her affair, realized she pushed her true, albeit flawed, love out the door and begged him to come back. Karma.
> 
> Although early on I was very much into staying on top of this stuff, as time has gone on I am trying to keep a faith/zen approach to this that if it is meant to be, it'll be. My wife crossed the line one time and came right home and told me about it. I fully believe it was one time. if she does it again, which is possible, then I don't think she is going to try and hide it. It will be the death of our marriage, and she knows it. I have the Location Services on her phone, and that's enough for me.
> 
> Honestly,. I am less concerned about the AP now and more concerned about her mindset of being "single in her mind" and if I am wise, it's the threat of another man that worries me



Your wife goes to bible study? Yet had an affair? This makes me really think she didn't decide she was done with this marriage until she decided to go ah read with the affair. How else would a bible studier rationalize infidelity? "I was done anyway so why the hell not!"

Only she's not really done. If she admits she is not really done, what does she predict will happen with the marriage? You know her best so what might she be predicting?


----------



## ConanHub

Anon Pink said:


> Your wife goes to bible study? Yet had an affair? This makes me really think she didn't decide she was done with this marriage until she decided to go ah read with the affair. How else would a bible studier rationalize infidelity? "I was done anyway so why the hell not!"
> 
> Only she's not really done. If she admits she is not really done, what does she predict will happen with the marriage? You know her best so what might she be predicting?


The amount of church going women having affairs is sky high.

The church, in general, has abysmally crappy teaching on marriage and sex and women, I kid you not, are taught that they are not sexual creatures, only men are, and sexual sin only happens with men and even if a woman does cheat it is because the man didn't do something right and he caused her to cheat.

I've been involved with major denominations in this country and seen this in absolutely every church I have ever attended except one.

It is really bad education.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## gridcom

Anon Pink said:


> I don't get "love-sick puppy" from any of your posts Gridcom. I see a man doing his best to do what he thinks is the right thing to do under very trying circumstances.
> 
> Some men do give off that vibe pretty clearly here at TAM.
> 
> If she is still insisting she is done and moving on, do you know if she has taken any steps to this effect? I apologize if this answer was given some pages back. Im just thinking that the affair kind of happened because circumstances allowed it, not like she decided she was done and then had the affair. Been unhappy for some times, complain regularly, goes in one ear out the other, plods along some good days some rotten days, then the coworker starts making her feel ways she had wanted you to make her feel and bam she's in an affair, so now she has to follow through that she isn't a terrible person who cheats and stays married, but an unhappy wife who was planning to leave and then met the new guy. In which case she's not a very proactive kind of person? If she's not, It follows then that she will not actually be taking solid steps to end the marriage unless she is backed into a corner? Which would definitely indicate she can be brought back.
> 
> Meh, that's just me thinking out loud..


I don't think she has taken any steps towards divorce. She met with a lawyer here in town but that was like 8 weeks ago, and it was a free consultation so she could get her rights and understand where she is at legally. Other than that, all she has done is talk. 

I honestly whole heartedly believe she wants to make the marriage work, but she is conflicted internally. She is absolutely angry at me right now, but at the same time she is being friendly and engaging most of the time. As long as we don't talk about our issues. Once we talk about our issues, the anger and bitterness and hostility come out. That's why I stopped talking about it.

She doesn't want to let on to me that we could be headed in the right direction, because as was stated earlier, she doesn't want to make it easy on me. She wants me to earn it I guess, which is fine. 

This experience has made me feel things and confront things about myself that I was either in denial about or didnt feel it was necessary to confront. Going to church and praying to God? I'm AGNOSTIC!!!!!!!! Going to IC? Absolutely was always needed and so glad that I finally am doing it. Holding myself accountable for poor behavior like I hold others accountable for their behavior? Yep, that too. Re-examining my relationship with my children? Not that it was ever bad, but this experience has had me looking at my role as a father. I'm complimenting them more, telling them I love them, making them feel loved. Not that I didnt before, but nearly as much as I am now. And you can see the love being returned. It's AWESOME!

There is a lot of good coming out of this. Maybe my wife feels I'll stop this exploration of self discovery once she lets her guard down. I dont know. 

I'll tell you this though, as bleak as it's looked at times and as frustrated as I've gotten and as worried as I've gotten over what she has said, I've NEVER doubted deep down that we are meant to be together. I've always have had the confidence that we can overcome this and that I can rise to the occasion.

I tell my wife all the time, well I TOLD my wife back when we used to talk about it....since she slept with this guy nothing has actually been done. Nothing! just a lot of words. Nobody has moved out, nobody has had more extra-marital sex, nobody has FILED FOR THE D, just a bunch of talk.


----------



## turnera

gridcom said:


> Anyway, this is some frustrating sh*t right here. It's very obvious there is a light there in the distance. Why can't she acknowledge it on some level? What is the harm? I really dont understand that, being that the actions are not matching the words


Why should she? If she moves out, she has to live on one income. It's easy enough to just ignore the doormat in the house if it causes you no trouble, if you're getting to live a richer life. You said it yourself - she goes wherever she wants, she does whatever she wants, she has no problem telling YOU no because you just sit there and accept it like a doormat...

Why should she change anything?


----------



## Anon Pink

> This experience has made me feel things and confront things about myself that I was either in denial about or didnt feel it was necessary to confront. Going to church and praying to God? I'm AGNOSTIC!!!!!!!! Going to IC? Absolutely was always needed and so glad that I finally am doing it. Holding myself accountable for poor behavior like I hold others accountable for their behavior? Yep, that too. Re-examining my relationship with my children? Not that it was ever bad, but this experience has had me looking at my role as a father. I'm complimenting them more, telling them I love them, making them feel loved. Not that I didnt before, but nearly as much as I am now. And you can see the love being returned. It's AWESOME!
> 
> There is a lot of good coming out of this. Maybe my wife feels I'll stop this exploration of self discovery once she lets her guard down. I dont know.



Have you told her this while reassuring her that come what may, the changes you are currently making will be permanent? How does she respond? Silence or anger?


----------



## gridcom

turnera said:


> Why should she? If she moves out, she has to live on one income. It's easy enough to just ignore the doormat in the house if it causes you no trouble, if you're getting to live a richer life. You said it yourself - she goes wherever she wants, she does whatever she wants, she has no problem telling YOU no because you just sit there and accept it like a doormat...
> 
> Why should she change anything?


Let me say something about this. I think, quite honestly if I told her today that I was going to move out, "file for the D", move into my old bedroom at my mothers house an hour away, and meant it, she would stop me from doing it. That's not what she wants. She wants reconciliation, but she wants it on her terms and at her tempo and under her rules. I think if I forced the issue, the end result would be that we stay married, but I feel like and she'd feel like I took a shortcut to get there, and she'll have resentment that I forced the tempo of reconciliation to a speed she wasn't comfortable with.

Does that make sense? I know she is the one that cheated, so some of you think I am insane with this approach. But, I don't think so. Like ANON said earlier, why do I need verbal verification that things are getting better. Can't they just get better without having a state of union saying so? Very valid point that I KEEP MISSING.


----------



## lifeistooshort

The chores argument is an old one. There are two types of chores: the ones that need to get done and the ones that you'd like to see done. 

When she was working 30 hours can I assume she was also taking care of kids? So making snide remarks about what the place looks like implies 2 thinks: she does nothing all day and she needs to answer to your standards. And that's exactly what it is: a, nasty, snide remark that accomplishes nothing besides foster resentmemnt. Much different then sitting down to discuss concerns.....ie "wife, would you mind taking care of X? You know how I am".


This speaks to the greater issue of the power imbalance. ....ie you work more hours so you get decide the standards of cleanliness. That's wthy I pointed out the two categories; if you're having to come home and cook because she can't be bothered that's one thing. If you'd simply prefer things a little neater that's your problem. It borders on a parent child dynamic where your wife answers to you. 

I'm not the neatest person either but stuff that needs to be done gets done. This was one of the many things the ex used to b!tch at me about. 

Forgive me if you've addressed this but looking back what kind of efforts did your wife make to let you know she wasn't happy with the dynamic? Clearly your needs were being met but hers weren't. Did she make efforts tell you? If we asked her the same question what would be her response?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lifeistooshort

gridcom said:


> Let me say something about this. I think, quite honestly if I told her today that I was going to move out, "file for the D", move into my old bedroom at my mothers house an hour away, and meant it, she would stop me from doing it. That's not what she wants. She wants reconciliation, but she wants it on her terms and at her tempo and under her rules. I think if I forced the issue, the end result would be that we stay married, but I feel like and she'd feel like I took a shortcut to get there, and she'll have resentment that I forced the tempo of reconciliation to a speed she wasn't comfortable with.
> 
> Does that make sense? I know she is the one that cheated, so some of you think I am insane with this approach. But, I don't think so. Like ANON said earlier, why do I need verbal verification that things are getting better. Can't they just get better without having a state of union saying so? Very valid point that I KEEP MISSING.



You're only insane if your two acceptable options are reconciliation at your pace with your rules or divorce. Some people feel like that. 

And of course she wants her timelines..... she's felt powerless for a lot of the marriage. That's what I meant by everything becoming about her affair and no concerns of hers matter.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## gridcom

lifeistooshort said:


> Forgive me if you've addressed this but looking back what kind of efforts did your wife make to let you know she wasn't happy with the dynamic? Clearly your needs were being met but hers weren't. Did she make efforts tell you? If we asked her the same question what would be her response?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We would argue and she would express her frustration with me, of course. Some people argue very quietly and brooding and mouse like. And some people roar like old Italians. We fall into that latter category. For me, you argue, say what you need to say, and then that's it. I am guilty of saying some awful things (that I didn't mean) and then hours later acting like I never said it. She would do the same thing, say things in the heat of the moment that I thought she didn't mean, because it was the heat of the moment. 

I've said this before, but my biggest issue is that she never came to me while we weren't fighting and looked me in the eye and said she wasn't happy. She said she wasn't happy all the time during an argument, but NEVER did a conversation happen where there was no fight and she just wanted to express her unhappiness.


----------



## turnera

gridcom said:


> Let me say something about this. I think, quite honestly if I told her today that I was going to move out, "file for the D", move into my old bedroom at my mothers house an hour away, and meant it, she would stop me from doing it. That's not what she wants. She wants reconciliation, but she wants it on her terms and at her tempo and under her rules. I think if I forced the issue, the end result would be that we stay married, but I feel like and she'd feel like I took a shortcut to get there, and she'll have resentment that I forced the tempo of reconciliation to a speed she wasn't comfortable with.
> 
> Does that make sense? I know she is the one that cheated, so some of you think I am insane with this approach. But, I don't think so. Like ANON said earlier, why do I need verbal verification that things are getting better. Can't they just get better without having a state of union saying so? Very valid point that I KEEP MISSING.


Look, I have NO problem with you addressing your shortcomings. But she DID cheat, and the last 10 pages of advice have pretty much just forgotten that. It's turned into a 'I can't let her leave, I'll do anything' thread. And all the more gentle people egging you on in kissing her ass so she won't leave you.

WHERE in all this is your list of boundaries? Where is her remorse? She doesn't have to have remorse just because you made her unhappy first? Buddy, nearly EVERY cheater was unhappy before the affair, that's why they became vulnerable to an affair. But in every single other thread I've ever read here that has had any sort of success, BSs are told to draw a line in the sand of NO cheating, transparency, MC, working TOGETHER on a plan, and no independent behavior. I see none of that here except MAYBE she is no longer cheating (but you would never know because you refuse to verify it, in your fear of having to take a stand).

I get that you don't want to lose her. NONE of the BHs who come here do. But women have to respect their men, in order to want them. They have to know that the man will NOT put up with independent behavior like telling him no, he can't go to the wedding with her.

Unless you were a vicious wife beater before the affair, NOTHING you could have done justifies the ass-kissing going on right now and I promise you, if you don't take SOME sort of stand, she will either leave you or cheat on you again. Since, you know, you made it clear she can do whatever she wants, you want her that badly.

I'm normally one of the ones here pushing for reconciliation. But the RIGHT way, the self-respecting way, the way that engenders respect FOR you. Doormatting is only going to get you more misery. Now or later.


----------



## truster

gridcom said:


> I honestly whole heartedly believe she wants to make the marriage work, but she is conflicted internally. She is absolutely angry at me right now, but at the same time she is being friendly and engaging most of the time. As long as we don't talk about our issues. Once we talk about our issues, the anger and bitterness and hostility come out. That's why I stopped talking about it.


An unrepentant WW can and will be perfectly polite day-to-day, despite scheming against you behind the scenes -- I'm living it currently. We can talk and joke and even do nice things for each other, but at the end of the day she sits down and writes an email to her lawyer about how to best put the screws to me (and that's just the ones he's shared with us, who knows how bad the private ones are).

I'm in the same situation as you, where I'm the breadwinner, and it's painfully obvious in the divorce proceedings so far that playing nice is just a low-effort way to keep the money tap flowing while other plans are made. Ever pal around with a boss or client that you find to be despicable, because that's what you do if you want to keep your office life smooth? Same concept.

I won't tell you what to do, but don't make the mistake of assuming that some basic politeness is an indicator of anything more than a low-effort attempt to keep you pacified for the time being. Look instead to the real indicators of behavior -- whether she'll stop her affair, whether she'll do intimate couple things with you, whether she'll be truthful about her actions. And it sounds like she's not interested in doing any of that.


----------



## gridcom

turnera said:


> Look, I have NO problem with you addressing your shortcomings. But she DID cheat, and the last 10 pages of advice have pretty much just forgotten that. It's turned into a 'I can't let her leave, I'll do anything' thread. And all the more gentle people egging you on in kissing her ass so she won't leave you.
> 
> WHERE in all this is your list of boundaries? Where is her remorse? She doesn't have to have remorse just because you made her unhappy first? Buddy, nearly EVERY cheater was unhappy before the affair, that's why they became vulnerable to an affair. But in every single other thread I've ever read here that has had any sort of success, BSs are told to draw a line in the sand of NO cheating, transparency, MC, working TOGETHER on a plan, and no independent behavior. I see none of that here except MAYBE she is no longer cheating (but you would never know because you refuse to verify it, in your fear of having to take a stand).
> 
> I get that you don't want to lose her. NONE of the BHs who come here do. But women have to respect their men, in order to want them. They have to know that the man will NOT put up with independent behavior like telling him no, he can't go to the wedding with her.
> 
> Unless you were a vicious wife beater before the affair, NOTHING you could have done justifies the ass-kissing going on right now and I promise you, if you don't take SOME sort of stand, she will either leave you or cheat on you again. Since, you know, you made it clear she can do whatever she wants, you want her that badly.
> 
> I'm normally one of the ones here pushing for reconciliation. But the RIGHT way, the self-respecting way, the way that engenders respect FOR you. Doormatting is only going to get you more misery. Now or later.


I take what you say here much more seriously since it is coming from a woman's point of view. And I agree with you, the affair and her attempting to choke my heart to death need to be addressed and they will be addressed. It's a very delicate balancing act I am on right now. There is a lot of forces at play, a lot of dynamic. I do feel that things need to be addressed one thing at a time rather than all at once.

I do wish that, on her own, she would start reading books (we have gotten plenty now and I am about to buy His Needs Her Needs) and going back to IC.


----------



## MRR

She is not trying dude. You are getting played, big time. If she had the financial resources she would be long gone right now.


----------



## ButtPunch

These "PLAN A" threads really give me the heebiee jeebiees.
I know it worked in Dr. HARLEY'S book but how can this not destroy 
all your self-esteem and self-respect.


----------



## gridcom

MRR said:


> She is not trying dude. You are getting played, big time. If she had the financial resources she would be long gone right now.


So I get a chance to save my marriage because we are sort of broke and in debt! Funny how the world works sometimes. Weird how this is MRR's very first post


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## Anon Pink

gridcom said:


> I take what you say here much more seriously since it is coming from a woman's point of view. And I agree with you, the affair and her attempting to choke my heart to death need to be addressed and they will be addressed. It's a very delicate balancing act I am on right now. There is a lot of forces at play, a lot of dynamic. I do feel that things need to be addressed one thing at a time rather than all at once.
> 
> I do wish that, on her own, she would start reading books (we have gotten plenty now and I am about to buy His Needs Her Needs) and going back to IC.


You're not a doormat, you're not a wimp. You're a husband who wants to heal his marriage from his mistakes and his wife's mistakes who wisely recognizes the wife's anger is in the way of healing so the anger must first be addressed.

You don't beat down anger with greater anger. You listen, you hear, you understand and you empathize.

One of this things that drives me NUTS about TAM is how absolutely ruthless the CWI crowd is about following the TAM way. This ain't no cult baby, and you are free to improvise because no one knows your life or your wife better than you!

Considering the fact that she knows about this thread and is probably reading it... Hell if it was me I'd be pretty damn angry at the way my character was being assassinated without so much as a peep from my husband.

All cheaters this and all cheaters that... No, just no! Maybe if the first 300 posts in this thread were perfect examples of rabid party line speak your wife might have even jumped in to discuss, but I sure as hell wouldn't recommend it at this point.

Grid honey, you're on the right track.


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## turnera

> Weird how this is MRR's very first post


Some people get SO frustrated reading foolhardy threads like this that they sign up JUST SO they can tell you so.


----------



## ConanHub

ButtPunch said:


> These "PLAN A" threads really give me the heebiee jeebiees.
> I know it worked in Dr. HARLEY'S book but how can this not destroy
> all your self-esteem and self-respect.


I think grid might be wired to do it. In general though it is pretty evil.

I've seen hellish destruction personally but also been reading plan A attempts on MB. I don't get the feeling that grid is in too horrible of a situation here.

I'm mostly concerned about healthy choices and grid is becoming a healthy man. So not to many criticisms from me and I'm a serious hard ass about infidelity.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Anon Pink

MRR said:


> She is not trying dude. You are getting played, big time. If she had the financial resources she would be long gone right now.


This is a total Red herring. If I had had the financial resources I would have been on husband number 3 by now!


----------



## ConanHub

lifeistooshort said:


> You're only insane if your two acceptable options are reconciliation at your pace with your rules or divorce.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That isn't insane, just different and perfectly reasonable boundaries.

Somedaydig got reconciliation at exactly his pace and absolutely, uncompromisingly, on his terms.

I've seen every shade in between and divorce as the only option and I'm fine with all of them as long as healthy choices are being made for everyone concerned.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

Anon Pink said:


> This is a total Red herring. If I had had the financial resources I would have been on husband number 3 by now!


I knew he had you chained to the bed! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lifeistooshort

ConanHub said:


> That isn't insane, just different and perfectly reasonable boundaries.
> 
> Somedaydig got reconciliation at exactly his pace and absolutely, uncompromisingly, on his terms.
> 
> I've seen every shade in between and divorce as the only option and I'm fine with all of them as long as healthy choices are being made for everyone concerned.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 I meant his particular path can only be construed as insane if those are the only acceptable paths to him because his actions don't support those two.

It's not insane to decide those two options are the only acceptable paths.

I'm happy the other guy got reconciliation on his terms.. .. only he can know if his marriage is currently good for both of them. 

I do not think gridcom will get a good marriage by insisting on all his terms. He'll either get divorced or his wife will get strong armed into staying married and continue to resent the hvll out of him. Neither of which he wants.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gridcom

turnera said:


> Some people get SO frustrated reading foolhardy threads like this that they sign up JUST SO they can tell you so.


touché


----------



## turnera

Anon Pink said:


> You're not a doormat, you're not a wimp. You're a husband who wants to heal his marriage from his mistakes and his wife's mistakes who wisely recognizes the wife's anger is in the way of healing so the anger must first be addressed.
> 
> You don't beat down anger with greater anger. You listen, you hear, you understand and you empathize.


Nowhere did I say to approach her in anger.

I said to say to her 'I won't share you and I won't stay with you without a commitment to address what happened. I see no commitment from you and I will wait - a VERY SHORT amount of time before I will move on without it.'

Why does a cheater get to say 'I'm mad at you' in the first place? Oh, yeah - when the BS is so afraid of losing her that he will do NOTHING.

You can't NICE a cheater back home. Not to a real marriage, anyway. You will have a convenience, nothing more, until the next better guy comes along.

She is not learning anything. She is not being asked to look at herself. She is not even being asked to apologize for ripping his heart out! How the hell is she supposed to suddenly realize she did an awful thing in that situation?


----------



## cbnero

This thread is getting painful to read. This chick said she is done with the marriage and banging other dudes. What is there to discuss with her?

There is no point in talking to her. You can't change her mind. Only she can. All your plans are based hoping it will get a change or reaction from her. That's manipulation. 

She knows how you feel. So leave it alone. Meet with an attorney and quit thinking about her or the marriage. Maybe then she will notice that and pursue you. Or not. But at least you will stop being a doormat. And maybe you can meet someone who won't marry you and sleep with other guys. Gross!


----------



## ConanHub

lifeistooshort said:


> I meant his particular path can only be construed as insane if those are the only acceptable paths to him because his actions don't support those two.
> 
> It's not insane to decide those two options are the only acceptable paths.
> 
> I'm happy the other guy got reconciliation on his terms.. .. only he can know if his marriage is currently good for both of them.
> 
> I do not think gridcom will get a good marriage by insisting on all his terms. He'll either get divorced or his wife will get strong armed into staying married and continue to resent the hvll out of him. Neither of which he wants.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


His terms concerning her infidelity absolutely need complied with but I agree on the marriage end of things.

Honestly they both need improvement in the care and feeding of marriage. Her communication skills sucked every bit as bad as his.

At some point, she is going to have to realize she has a lot of work to do and a lot of improving as well. She also has to get it through her head that fvcking a boy at work seriously harms, not only herself, but her children as well. 

I'm on board with what grid is doing and how he is now behaving. It is fairly healthy.

At some point his WW has to acknowledge her dumb ass and start getting into repair mode or this pretty much dead marriage will still be comatose.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MRR

gridcom said:


> So I get a chance to save my marriage because we are sort of broke and in debt! Funny how the world works sometimes. Weird how this is MRR's very first post


Exactly. I have been reading this thing since last week and am finally compelled to create an account to specifically pour water on you. 

Before my ex saved up enough money to get an apt, she acted very cordial and was more than happy to spend time with me if it meant less hostility. Didn't mean anything as far as a future relationship. 

I went on a date with a woman after my divorce. I didn't know it before the date, but her divorce was final less than a month--AND she still lived with the ex. They had two kids. She did stuff with him all the time, and we had sex (all the time). He had no idea- (though they were actually divorced). The reason she lived at home and did stuff with him, is because she could not afford her own place so was nice to him to avoid constant tension, hostility, etc, in her place of residence-- where she had to go back to every night. 

I know what it is like to go through this and have your emotions all over the map, but from reading this it is YOU who is in a huge fog. 

Like Tunera said earlier today, you have given this woman NO reason to respect you and when women do not respect men, they sure as heck are not attracted to them. 

The best thing to do, and I know you have been told this countless times, is to talk to an attorney, file for divorce and tell your wife you are moving on with your life-- let her start to see her life as a divorce parent. 

You wont do this under the false pretense that you are noble and righteous, but in fact you are not willing to face the truth-- that is the real reason you wont do this. 

Someday. Someday you WILL move (because she already has) and when you do you will see how many precious days you wasted trying to be the GOOD GUY (aka 'the nice guy'). 

(Nice guys are not nice, FYI; like you, everything they do has strings attached, secret expectations, and so on).


----------



## weightlifter

Sometimes Plan A works.
VERY few men are wired to allow it to work without destroying them.
Good luck Grid. I hope you are wired thusly and I hope she is not playing you.

Yes I have my doubts but its HIS road.


----------



## ButtPunch

Why don't we ever see women using plan A and getting the kind of encouragement that Grid
is getting? I can't think of one thread where a woman was advised to use this method. Food
for thought.


----------



## ConanHub

ButtPunch said:


> Why don't we ever see women using plan A and getting the kind of encouragement that Grid
> is getting? I can't think of one thread where a woman was advised to use this method. Food
> for thought.


Honestly women are only supposed to do plan A for two or three weeks tops and then call it quits.

Dr. Harley advises men to attempt it for six months to a year before cutting things off.

His marriage advice is quite solid but I have found much of his infidelity advice to be ridiculous and one sided sexist.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ButtPunch

ConanHub said:


> Honestly women are only supposed to do plan A for two or three weeks tops and then call it quits.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Why the difference? Dr. Harley think women are too fragile to take that much abuse, because that is what plan A is. ABUSE with a capital A.


----------



## gridcom

Am I doing Plan A? I read it last week, I'll read it again. That said, I don't want to follow some script. I'm just trying to do what feels right, which YES does include protecting myself and having some self respect. My wife had an exit-affair and here we are 10 weeks later and she hasn't exited. I don't believe for a second that she is working me on this end and sharpening the blade on the other end. Even with the affair, that is treachery of the foulest kind at this point

And again, if that's the case than I will absorb the blow and move on down the road with my head held high and let her live in her own sh*t

I am telling you, that's not what is happening here. The forces of goodness are being awakened here.


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> Am I doing Plan A? I read it last week, I'll read it again. That said, I don't want to follow some script. I'm just trying to do what feels right, which YES does include protecting myself and having some self respect. My wife had an exit-affair and here we are 10 weeks later and she hasn't exited. I don't believe for a second that she is working me on this end and sharpening the blade on the other end. Even with the affair, that is treachery of the foulest kind at this point
> 
> And again, if that's the case than I will absorb the blow and move on down the road with my head held high and let her live in her own sh*t
> 
> I am telling you, that's not what is happening here. The forces of goodness are being awakened here.


Yes, you may not know it but you are using an approach similar to Plan A.


----------



## ConanHub

ButtPunch said:


> Why the difference? Dr. Harley think women are too fragile to take that much abuse, because that is what plan A is. ABUSE with a capital A.


Yup. He also has the attitude that if someone cheats it is the BSs failure.

He has a couple side notes that say otherwise but he directly blames a BS for his wife's devastating behavior in his book "Surviving an Affair".

His books are fantastic for building a stronger marriage and even helping in some recovery after an affair but horrible when it comes to being accountable and taking responsibility for cheating.

His exposure and confrontation advice is pretty good though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

gridcom said:


> Am I doing Plan A? I read it last week, I'll read it again. That said, I don't want to follow some script. I'm just trying to do what feels right, which YES does include protecting myself and having some self respect. My wife had an exit-affair and here we are 10 weeks later and she hasn't exited. I don't believe for a second that she is working me on this end and sharpening the blade on the other end. Even with the affair, that is treachery of the foulest kind at this point
> 
> And again, if that's the case than I will absorb the blow and move on down the road with my head held high and let her live in her own sh*t
> 
> I am telling you, that's not what is happening here. The forces of goodness are being awakened here.


You are definitely employing elements of plan A if not all but who cares as long as you are becoming healthier and possibly repairing your marriage?

Not this barbarian! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MRR

gridcom said:


> Am I doing Plan A? I read it last week, I'll read it again. That said, I don't want to follow some script. I'm just trying to do what feels right, which YES does include protecting myself and having some self respect. My wife had an exit-affair and here we are 10 weeks later and she hasn't exited. I don't believe for a second that she is working me on this end and sharpening the blade on the other end. Even with the affair, that is treachery of the foulest kind at this point
> 
> And again, if that's the case than I will absorb the blow and move on down the road with my head held high and let her live in her own sh*t
> 
> I am telling you, that's not what is happening here. The forces of goodness are being awakened here.



You can talk about 'sharpening the blade' and whatever other nonsense. 

Just as much as you want to justify in your own head why you should put up with being completely disrespected, in her mind she has to deal with a huge amount of guilt so she actually DOESNT want to make that worse by being a b**ch to you. I know you don't get this. She is not 'sharpening the blade' to hurt you on purpose, she just has no feelings for you. Women typically want to be kind with their rejection-- especially if the rejected one is paying the mortgage and feeding the kids and she has nowhere else to go. 

So quit acting so surprised that she is so d*mn nice to you AND still doesn't want to be married to you. You are not unique in this. This happens all over the world, every single day.


----------



## LongWalk

ButtPunch said:


> Why don't we ever see women using plan A and getting the kind of encouragement that Grid
> is getting? I can't think of one thread where a woman was advised to use this method. Food
> for thought.


Men and women are different.


----------



## truster

gridcom said:


> Am I doing Plan A? I read it last week, I'll read it again. That said, I don't want to follow some script. I'm just trying to do what feels right, which YES does include protecting myself and having some self respect. My wife had an exit-affair and here we are 10 weeks later and she hasn't exited. I don't believe for a second that she is working me on this end and sharpening the blade on the other end. Even with the affair, that is treachery of the foulest kind at this point
> 
> And again, if that's the case than I will absorb the blow and move on down the road with my head held high and let her live in her own sh*t
> 
> I am telling you, that's not what is happening here. The forces of goodness are being awakened here.


Hypothetical time. You fell into a wormhole and came out in an alternate reality where everything was the same, except your wife's motivations had changed -- and now she did indeed want to keep things pleasant at home purely to keep financially stable while she worked on her exit.

What behavior would you expect to see in this alternate reality that's different from yours? Keeping in mind, of course, the advice given by those divorcing or divorced who had polite enough interactions in between the battles leading up to the finalization of the divorce.


----------



## Keepin-my-head-up

As a heads up,
Just because the 2 of you can have great conversations while this is going on doesn't mean that she is softening.

I went thru the same thing, we were splitting up but living under the same roof til we could find other places.
When we came home from work, we really didn't want to see the other persons face.
After a few hours it is hard to not say anything to the only other adult sitting in the house.
A coworker of mine had no idea his wife was having an affair and planned to leave him
They laughed and talked every day til the day he came home and found her gone.

Point of this is, don't read to much into anything and please prepare yourself for both scenarios.
Yes work on your marriage and yourself but make sure the work you are doing on yourself is just for you and not for the reason of saving your marriage.

If it helps then it will be by correlation and you will still have the new you on top of it.


----------



## gridcom

truster said:


> Hypothetical time. You fell into a wormhole and came out in an alternate reality where everything was the same, except your wife's motivations had changed -- and now she did indeed want to keep things pleasant at home purely to keep financially stable while she worked on her exit.
> 
> What behavior would you expect to see in this alternate reality that's different from yours? Keeping in mind, of course, the advice given by those divorcing or divorced who had polite enough interactions in between the battles leading up to the finalization of the divorce.


She wouldn't cut out of work early to go see War Room. She wouldn't come back from Bible Study and ask me to read passages about children needing their fathers in the home. And honestly, she wouldnt seek me out to have random conversations about her work day or some other gossip going on in her world. Maybe she'd be nice and listen to mine, maybe she wouldnt run away when I entered her zone, but she wouldnt enter my zone. 

Those things most recently and specifically wouldn't have happened.

My gut says this is going the right way. I'm trusting my gut


----------



## GusPolinski

So is she still working w/ OM?


----------



## gridcom

GusPolinski said:


> So is she still working w/ OM?


Yes. According to her, she works on one level of the building and he works one level above her. They work together one hour a week, Friday's from 4 to 5pm. Although, funny enough, she got called in early today so they worked together today (again, together meaning in the same building). And also, he works (at Starbucks) across the street while she is working on some nights. And also, he lives like a mile from the job.


----------



## ButtPunch

LongWalk said:


> Men and women are different.


Well it seems to me that women are more genetically predisposed to accomplish Plan A more than men. Take polygamy for example. It's usually multiple wives not multiple husbands. 

Plan A "may" bring his wife back but at what cost? Complete loss of self respect. How could any woman be attracted to this sort of man?


----------



## GusPolinski

gridcom said:


> Yes.


Then the affair is still on, and none of the rest of the junk that you typed after this matters at all.


----------



## gridcom

GusPolinski said:


> Then the affair is still on, and none of the rest of the junk that you typed after this matters at all.


UGH


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> UGH


Ugh is right. She quits her job today. If she refuses, well then you will see how high you are on the pecking order

1. OM
2. Job
3. Kids
4. Tea situation in China
5. YOU


----------



## LongWalk

Gridcom,

Going to the wedding without you could be the last act of rebellion or she could be sick of you and just wants space.

Right now she doesn't touch you and you don't dare touch her. That can only last so long.

When she gets back from the wedding if she is still cold, maybe you have to ask her if she needs money for a lawyer.


----------



## cbnero

GusPolinski said:


> gridcom said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> Then the affair is still on, and none of the rest of the junk that you typed after this matters at all.
Click to expand...

Ditto! This man is being played in the worst way right now. Where are the other alpha posters on here? The kid gloves need to come off. I've never seen such timid advice for someone in this scenario. Forget plan A. Forget her for that matter!

FYI mine came back when I grew a pair. And then I wanted nothing to do with her. But if she wants you back and changes then you will be ready to objectively decide. Right now you're a mess!


----------



## truster

gridcom said:


> She wouldn't cut out of work early to go see War Room. She wouldn't come back from Bible Study and ask me to read passages about children needing their fathers in the home. And honestly, she wouldnt seek me out to have random conversations about her work day or some other gossip going on in her world. Maybe she'd be nice and listen to mine, maybe she wouldnt run away when I entered her zone, but she wouldnt enter my zone.
> 
> Those things most recently and specifically wouldn't have happened.
> 
> My gut says this is going the right way. I'm trusting my gut


Those are the exact things that these unrepentant WW's will do (and mine does), though.. they take little to no effort on their part, and generally they even are benefiting from getting to vent to someone convenient. It's similar to the relationship between some women and their "guy friend", who they'll vent to, ask for favors from, and 100% never ever ever want to sleep with. Except there's even more in it for them, because the "guy friend" pays the bills, too.

I'm not going to talk you out of reconciliation, I just want to point out that these scraps she's feeding you are in no way 'proof' that she wants you back. It's exactly how you should expect an unrepentant WW to act.

How would a repentant WW act? Well, at a minimum I think she would actually stop fooling around with the OM.


----------



## Chaparral

gridcom said:


> I take what you say here much more seriously since it is coming from a woman's point of view. And I agree with you, the affair and her attempting to choke my heart to death need to be addressed and they will be addressed. It's a very delicate balancing act I am on right now. There is a lot of forces at play, a lot of dynamic. I do feel that things need to be addressed one thing at a time rather than all at once.
> 
> I do wish that, on her own, she would start reading books (we have gotten plenty now and I am about to buy His Needs Her Needs) and going back to IC.


She doesn't need to read squat. She dogged you about still reading the books etc. She's made up her mind and she's happy with it. You've been friend zoned. I'm surprised she hasn't given you the "we can still be friends" speech.

Not only that, you continue to do things that still lose more respect. When a woman cheats she loses respect more and more even if you don't catch her. You would have been better off pounding him and outing them both to their employer. Unless he's a total loser there is no reason on earth he wanted anything but sex. She's fine with that. Now you're coming to a cheating wife with hat in hand. She's amused and disgusted with your lack of stones.

You're following advice I have never seen work here.


----------



## Chaparral

BTW, have you talked to her pastor privately and asked him to counsel you both?


----------



## jld

Chaparral said:


> She doesn't need to read squat. She dogged you about still reading the books etc. She's made up her mind and she's happy with it. You've been friend zoned. I'm surprised she hasn't given you the "we can still be friends" speech.
> 
> Not only that, you continue to do things that still lose more respect. When a woman cheats she loses respect more and more even if you don't catch her. You would have been better off pounding him and outing them both to their employer. Unless he's a total loser there is no reason on earth he wanted anything but sex. She's fine with that. Now you're coming to a cheating wife with hat in hand. She's amused and disgusted with your lack of stones.
> 
> You're following advice I have never seen work here.


Worked for Stillkeepinghopeful.


----------



## Evinrude58

I respect your love you have for your wife. I completely understand your thoughts. I had then all. The truth: Your wife is still cheating on you at worst, or just is indifferent toward you at the least. You are in denial of the fact that your wife no longer loves you. 
You can talk, work on yourself, pray, be good to her, act happy, or whatever else you want to try........ It's an awful pain beyond all others to accept that the person you chose to love and spend your life with has no feelings for you. But it is something you will want to face as soon as possible if you want to feel the least amount of pain possible. 
She has told you she doesn't love you and wants a divorce. What more do you need to hear? Guess what, you'll hear all the rest of it if you keep pushing for reconciliation. You think if you said you'll move out that she will stop you. I'll bet my next paycheck you are wrong. You know you are wrong, or you'd do just that. 
I'm only telling you this because you need to accept that your wife no longer loves you in order to move on. And moving on you will be forced to do, whether you want to or not. I am so sorry to say it. I was in your spot not long ago. Your wife has told you. Listen. You didn't before. You will have to now. But please, don't take all this blame on yourself. She chose to cheat, chose to end your relationship. What effort did she put in to the emotional health of the marriage? I'll bet very little. 
There has to be remorse, and a desire to reconcile for it to have a chance, on both of your parts. There is only remorse and desire on your part. It's impossible. I was told all these things. I didn't want to hear them. They were right.

Things she will tell you:
You forced me to do x in our marriage. Now you're forcing me to reconcile.

It's all about what YOU want.

You can't get over this because you feel so guilty.

If you truly loved me you'd want me to be happy, not to just be with you.

I gave you x years to fix things/change.

It's too late.

You caused this.

I don't love you anymore/ I'm not attracted to you anymore.

He makes me feel beautiful. 

You'll never change.

You pushed me to this.


----------



## gridcom

LongWalk said:


> Gridcom,
> 
> Going to the wedding without you could be the last act of rebellion or she could be sick of you and just wants space.
> 
> Right now she doesn't touch you and you don't dare touch her. That can only last so long.
> 
> When she gets back from the wedding if she is still cold, maybe you have to ask her if she needs money for a lawyer.


She is just sick of me and wants space. I would touch her. I would touch her all day if she let me...

This is the issue, too. We dont have money for a lawyer. Money is real tight right now. The paycheck comes in and the entire paycheck goes out save for maybe a few hundred for food and gas. The credit cards go up, and they're all maxed or close to it. 

Bottom line is this. If we can't get into some form of unified and understood mode of reconciliation, than either I have to move in with my mother in the house I grew up in, rent free, and pay the bills here while my wife, who had the affair, successfully gets to live here on my income while my kids run around losing their minds because daddy now lives an hour away 

or

I figure out a way to get her to leave the house, which she doesn't legally have to do. And if my gut is wrong and she is just stalling but deep down wants to be rid of me for good, then she seems to be OK with living like this with us in this weird state of marriage.

I am not about to force her to move out. I'm not going to overpower her and try to manipulate or evil her out of the house BECAUSE, as all the ladies on the thread completely understand, the affair is underscored by the fact that I was a neglectful husband.

So, just making her miserable until she drops her sword is NOT AN OPTION

I'd sooner move out than try to over power her.


----------



## gridcom

Chaparral said:


> BTW, have you talked to her pastor privately and asked him to counsel you both?


I have. He met with both of us. I did the talking. She sat there stone faced. She later revealed she was angry at me for coming into HER church and painting her like a wh0re to her pastor.

I then met with him alone and it was good. He said he was going to meet with her alone, but he has yet to reach out to her and that was maybe a month ago now. Or maybe he did reach out to her and she told him she didnt want to talk about it.:frown2:


----------



## naiveonedave

how on earth can she afford to go to a wedding, if you barely are afloat financially. All non-essential spending should be ut off for both of you.


----------



## gridcom

naiveonedave said:


> how on earth can she afford to go to a wedding, if you barely are afloat financially. All non-essential spending should be ut off for both of you.


Likely buying a blender on our not maxed Best Buy card


----------



## jld

You do not need to move out or call a lawyer. You are doing fine following the links life and I gave you. And we and Anon Pink are here to support you, too.

Just be patient and resist any urge to pity yourself or try to disrespect or control her. 

What Bible passages are you reading?


----------



## cbnero

It will do no good to ask the pastor to meet with her. I was in your shoes. My pastor wisely said he would glady talk to her - ONLY if she approached him to do so.

Divorce could bankrupt you both. If you are barely getting by now, supporting 2 households will be even worse.

You need to take a breath and focus on BOUNDARIES. 

Do NOT move out of your house. Let her do that if she desires. Heck help her pack!

Personally I would do this: meet with an attorney and get your options. There is a ton of paperwork involved and a long process. So get informed. Doesn't mean you file. Then, I would create an individual bank account for your paycheck. Don't give her access and have the mail sent to your mom's. Next you need to separate your phone plan and get your own. 

Tell her calmly you need to discuss the household bills. Since she doesn't want to be a family she needs to start paying half. Not your problem if she doesnt. Ask her to let you know when she is moving out so you can start making plans.

Best thing yet: get new bedsheets and comforter - borrow someone's doesn't matter - and put them on the bed while she is at the wedding. Start moving on with your life. The key here is DO NOT ENGAGE. Don't criticize, don't get angry. Don't lose your cool. This is crucial.


----------



## gridcom

jld said:


> You do not need to move out or call a lawyer. You are doing fine following the links life and I gave you. And we and Anon Pink are here to support you, too.
> 
> Just be patient and resist any urge to pity yourself or try to disrespect or control her.
> 
> What Bible passages are you reading?


There is a bunch, mainly from Matthew because I'm new to the bible and I am through the Book Of Matthew completely and now a little in The Book Of Mark.

Teaching About Vows
A Tree And Its Fruit
I Never Knew You
When Someone Sins

I dont know if those are the names, because I am reading what is called "The Good News Bible" which translates it in a more readable fashion. 

I know I am doing fine. Like I said, I am going to do what I can and if it doesnt work out, I'm walking out of here guilt free and with zero regret.


----------



## jld

Let's not talk about walking out. You and she are going to come through this, together.


----------



## gridcom

jld said:


> Let's not talk about walking out. You and she are going to come through this, together.


Cripes jld, I almost made it to sundown with no tears!!


----------



## lifeistooshort

ButtPunch said:


> Ugh is right. She quits her job today. If she refuses, well then you will see how high you are on the pecking order
> 
> 1. OM
> 2. Job
> 3. Kids
> 4. Tea situation in China
> 5. YOU


If I was her and he demanded I quite my job today I'd tell him to take a long walk off a short pier. Not because of OM but because I wouldn't quite my job if I wasn't sure the marriage was going to work out.

He can make that demand if they get to the point where they're going to try to salvage the marriage.

I've noticed that unfaithful men are never told to quite their job today, even when they had affairs with coworkers. I wonder why that is?


----------



## cbnero

jld said:


> Let's not talk about walking out. You and she are going to come through this, together.


99% of every other poster on here had quite the opposite experience. I'll take the house odds on this one. Hope and pray you are in the 1%, plan for the other.


----------



## lifeistooshort

gridcom said:


> Cripes jld, I almost made it to sundown with no tears!!


Jld is right, have some patience. She's po's you went to her pastor because she sees it as more bullying. The decision for her to commit must be hers.


----------



## cbnero

lifeistooshort said:


> ButtPunch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ugh is right. She quits her job today. If she refuses, well then you will see how high you are on the pecking order
> 
> 1. OM
> 2. Job
> 3. Kids
> 4. Tea situation in China
> 5. YOU
> 
> 
> 
> If I was her and he demanded I quite my job today I'd tell him to take a long walk off a short pier. Not because of OM but because I wouldn't quite my job if I wasn't sure the marriage was going to work out.
> 
> He can make that demand if they get to the point where they're going to try to salvage the marriage.
> 
> I've noticed that unfaithful men are never told to quite their job today, even when they had affairs with coworkers. I wonder why that is?
Click to expand...

My advice would be the same male or female. I don't know about demanding it. If the WS "gets it' they would realize they need to quit on their own. Demands don't work well IMO.

I'm a big believer in boundaries. Control what you can - yourself.


----------



## lifeistooshort

cbnero said:


> 99% of every other poster on here had quite the opposite experience. I'll take the house odds on this one. Hope and pray you are in the 1%, plan for the other.


Maybe that's because taking the advice of the masses to show her who's boss doesn't work to salvage a marriage.


----------



## cbnero

lifeistooshort said:


> cbnero said:
> 
> 
> 
> 99% of every other poster on here had quite the opposite experience. I'll take the house odds on this one. Hope and pray you are in the 1%, plan for the other.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe that's because taking the advice of the masses to show her who's boss doesn't work to salvage a marriage.
Click to expand...

Haha well you might be right. I did what grid is trying for over a year. Worst year of my life and made it terribly painful. When she tried to come back i couldn't get past it all. 

Maybe not super alpha male but nothing wrong with boundaries. Those are gender neutral. She wants to be on her own. So give her what she wants. Prepare for her to kick and scream and be nasty. That's a good sign. Argument could be made that giving her what she is asking for is a sign of love. Sometimes people need to make mistakes and won't listen.


----------



## gridcom

lifeistooshort said:


> Maybe that's because taking the advice of the masses to show her who's boss doesn't work to salvage a marriage.


This is what I am thinking. I dont want to paint with a broad brush, but if you look at the first several pages of this thread, those people aren't around anymore. 

The scorched earth thing, it's a blanket statement that applies to cheaters of all types. But do the same rules apply to my wife, who was neglected and fell for another man, had sex one time, came home and told me the truth about it and more or less (there has been some real foggy moments) has been straight up ever since VERSUS the woman who had an affair that lasted years, and maybe mulitple affairs and who's husband was a truly nice guy and she was just bored and selfish.

Are they the same? I mean, I guess I am kind of defending my wife in a way, but I think it's a valid point. 

Time will tell. I'll tell you what. I read all of these long threads. I am just now 2/3rds through Kolors thread, and most of them have no ending. The poster just, pooof!, disappears.

I will not disappear. You will know how this plays out one way or the other. You will see if your hunch was right or your hunch was wrong.


----------



## lifeistooshort

cbnero said:


> Haha well you might be right. I did what grid is trying for over a year. Worst year of my life and made it terribly painful. When she tried to come back i couldn't get past it all.
> 
> Maybe not super alpha male but nothing wrong with boundaries. Those are gender neutral. She wants to be on her own. So give her what she wants. Prepare for her to kick and scream and be nasty. That's a good sign. Argument could be made that giving her what she is asking for is a sign of love. Sometimes people need to make mistakes and won't listen.


I'm not familiar with your situation but I think the course of action is different if you were basically a good husband and your wife was just a self entitled %$#@% that fvcked another man. In that case that TAM treatment may be warranted.

The dynamic changes though when you're dealing with a less than stellar husband. I realize it's en vogue here to call all wayward complaints rewriting but that's not always the case. Sometimes they have very legitimate complaints that they chose to deal with poorly.

The same advice would be given to a wife who starved her husband sexually and then had had an affair. While it would be noted he was wrong it would also be noted that she played a big part by denying him sexually. Far different then a wife who's a willing partner but hubby bangs a h0 for no reason. I've observed this dynamic on TAM before.

The advice many of us are giving is based on the complicated dynamic that arises when one spouse is very neglectful and the other acts out by making the very poor decision to fvck someone else. If you want a divorce by all means file and get out; if you want to salvage the marriage it becomes more complicated as there are two very wronged parties here. The issue becomes who is addressed first and gridcom is in a much better place to address his issues. And either way that benefits him.


----------



## lifeistooshort

gridcom said:


> This is what I am thinking. I dont want to paint with a broad brush, but if you look at the first several pages of this thread, those people aren't around anymore.
> 
> The scorched earth thing, it's a blanket statement that applies to cheaters of all types. But do the same rules apply to my wife, who was neglected and fell for another man, had sex one time, came home and told me the truth about it and more or less (there has been some real foggy moments) has been straight up ever since VERSUS the woman who had an affair that lasted years, and maybe mulitple affairs and who's husband was a truly nice guy and she was just bored and selfish.
> 
> Are they the same? I mean, I guess I am kind of defending my wife in a way, but I think it's a valid point. The pain is the same and she knew I was a going to be a victim. But, I'm quite sure she didnt think 10 weeks later this is where we'd be
> 
> Time will tell. I'll tell you what. I read all of these long threads. I am just now 2/3rds through Kolors thread, and most of them have no ending. The poster just, pooof!, disappears.
> 
> I will not disappear. You will know how this plays out one way or the other. You will see if your hunch was right or your hunch was wrong.


I think your attitude is healthy. You see very clearly how both of you fvcked up and are taking a path that requires a lot of strength. You're not absolving her of her decision but you're taking a clear look at the big picture.

We're all hoping she comes around and does her part.


----------



## cbnero

So what are your boundaries then? I guess these posts no one wants to see you get hurt and the marriage continue. But if you have no boundaries and continually let her walk on you then you can't complain because you are enabling that behavior.

Her talk and actions say she is done. Obviously. You are looking for any sign of hope. That's fine. Prepare for things to get much worse then before they get better. And the high possibility that they don't ever change.


----------



## gridcom

Speaking of Kolors thread, and I am not done yet, but it's amazing to read page after page, month after month of him trying so god [email protected] hard to keep it going with his wife. His effort is amazing. Many of you posting here were posting over there, too. Encouraging him, guiding him. And he try's like hell!!!!!! And then he stops posting for two weeks, and BOOM he comes back and he's like a new person. Totally over it, totally past it, like magic. I understand the end of that thread see's him with a new woman and his wife, OF COURSE, regretting pushing him out the door. I am not to the conslusion. But having read page after page, I feel like I lived through it with him sort of. He was as determined as me, very similar characteristics between us. 

And then, suddenly.... f*ck it....


----------



## gridcom

cbnero said:


> So what are your boundaries then? I guess these posts no one wants to see you get hurt and the marriage continue. But if you have no boundaries and continually let her walk on you then you can't complain because you are enabling that behavior.
> 
> Her talk and actions say she is done. Obviously. You are looking for any sign of hope. That's fine. Prepare for things to get much worse then before they get better. And the high possibility that they don't ever change.


My boundaries are simply this. You cannot live here and see the other man, or any other man for that matter. If you want to see him, if you cant help yourself for whatever reason, you need to move out as I don't have to live with infidelity.

That's it, and I don't totally trust her. I have no idea if they are talking at work. I suspect they are. I wouldnt bet against it. But I am making it extremely hard for them to hook up for alone time. And if she wants to go out of her way to make that happen, then so be it. She'll have to live with that kind of nonsense behavior

At some point, the boundaries will change. Especially as we continue to live in limbo with no movement at all

But, I'm telling you right now, that's not going to happen


----------



## lifeistooshort

gridcom said:


> Speaking of Kolors thread, and I am not done yet, but it's amazing to read page after page, month after month of him trying to god [email protected] hard to keep it going with his wife. His effort is amazing. Many of you posting here were posting over there, too. Encouraging him, guiding him. And he try's like hell!!!!!! And then he stops posting for two weeks, and BOOM he comes back and he's like a new person. Totally over it, totally past it, like magic. I understand the end of that thread see's him with a new woman and his wife, OF COURSE, regretting pushing him out the door. I am not to the conslusion. But having read page after page, I feel like I lived through it with him sort of. He was as determined as me, very similar characteristics between us.
> 
> And then, suddenly.... f*ck it....


Well if that time comes for you at least you can live with the knowledge that you did what you could and came out a better man.


----------



## JohnA

No grid, those are not your only living arrangements in case of divorce/separation. She can move into his place. She does not get to stay in the family home if she is not a part of the family. You are enabling situation. 

And no your kids are not fine. Do they know what the basics facts are; you were abusive, she has a boyfriend? The only Odat's marriage has a shot is her parents sat her down and shared the pain of the mothers adultery caused. Our children learn from both what we did right, what we did wrong, and how we fixed our mistakes.


----------



## cbnero

gridcom said:


> cbnero said:
> 
> 
> 
> So what are your boundaries then? I guess these posts no one wants to see you get hurt and the marriage continue. But if you have no boundaries and continually let her walk on you then you can't complain because you are enabling that behavior.
> 
> Her talk and actions say she is done. Obviously. You are looking for any sign of hope. That's fine. Prepare for things to get much worse then before they get better. And the high possibility that they don't ever change.
> 
> 
> 
> My boundaries are simply this. You cannot live here and see the other man, or any other man for that matter. If you want to see him, if you cant help yourself for whatever reason, you need to move out as I don't have to live with infidelity.
> 
> That's it, and I don't totally trust her. I have no idea if they are talking at work. I suspect they are. I wouldnt bet against it. But I am making it extremely hard for them to hook up for alone time. And if she wants to go out of her way to make that happen, then so be it. She'll have to live with that kind of nonsense behavior
> 
> At some point, the boundaries will change. Especially as we continue to live in limbo with no movement at all
> 
> But, I'm telling you right now, that's not going to happen
Click to expand...

Have you told her this? That you're not comfortable with them working together? 

Seems to me having sec with someone else while married wouldn't need to be clearly defined in writing or conversation.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

lifeistooshort said:


> I've noticed that unfaithful men are never told to quite their job today, even when they had affairs with coworkers. I wonder why that is?


 You must be thinking of another website or forgetting that many more men post about betrayal than women. When a woman does show up, she is almost always told her husband needs to quit. If a cheating man posts about an affair with a coworker, he is told to quit.


You said never, not me. There are a few threads, but those are usually SAHM being told to divorce and not have him quit.


----------



## cbnero

Reality is she slept with another guy. And he did. .. what, exactly? Zero consequence. Oh wait that was BS fault. 

So now they are working together and the consequence is ... what exactly?


----------



## just got it 55

gridcom said:


> There is a bunch, mainly from Matthew because I'm new to the bible and I am through the Book Of Matthew completely and now a little in The Book Of Mark.
> 
> Teaching About Vows
> A Tree And Its Fruit
> I Never Knew You
> When Someone Sins
> 
> I dont know if those are the names, because I am reading what is called "The Good News Bible" which translates it in a more readable fashion.
> 
> I know I am doing fine. Like I said, I am going to do what I can and if it doesnt work out, I'm walking out of here guilt free and with zero regret.


Grid I may or may not agree with your method,

but I do admire your conviction .

Call me cynical but I wish you well.

But please never give up your self respect.

55


----------



## gridcom

The consequences are there

Behind Door #1- We reconcile and she has to quit her job. She's going to have demonstrate legit remorse and accountability and she'll likely be untrusted and monitored for some time until trust is restored and she'll have to deal with that with a smile and understanding

Behind Door #2- She follows through with the divorce, has to struggle to make ends meet, has to deal with two children who are like WTF why did this happen, has to deal with ex-friends and family who no longer look at her in a positive light, has to live in a town where people are asking the both of us "what happened? We thought you guys were a great couple" and more than likely have to live with the fact that everybody in town knows she had an affair, has to live for the rest of her life with the fact that what she did to murder the marriage was awful and shameful, has to live with children with, as they get older will always have an issue with the way their mother handled it. Has to delve into a unknown romantic/relationship future, having to go through all the steps and beauty of a growing reltionship knowing it isnt as sweet the second time.....should I continue?

If I'm her, I'm taking door #1. But in order for that to happen, as has been outlined very effectively, I need to do my part to make it welcoming

And yes, my oldest daughter knows about the affair and she knows that I was a neglectful husband. I was as accountable to my daughter about my role in this as I have been here.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

gridcom said:


> The consequences are there
> 
> Behind Door #1- We reconcile and she has to quit her job. She's going to have demonstrate legit remorse and accountability and she'll likely be untrusted and monitored for some time until trust is restored and she'll have to deal with that with a smile and understanding
> 
> Behind Door #2- She follows through with the divorce, has to struggle to make ends meet, has to deal with two children who are like WTF why did this happen, has to deal with ex-friends and family who no longer look at her in a positive light, has to live in a town where people are asking the both of us "what happened? We thought you guys were a great couple" and more than likely have to live with the fact that everybody in town knows she had an affair, has to live for the rest of her life with the fact that what she did to murder the marriage was awful and shameful, has to live with children with, as they get older will always have an issue with the way their mother handled it. Has to delve into a unknown romantic/relationship future, having to go through all the steps and beauty of a growing reltionship knowing it isnt as sweet the second time.....should I continue?
> 
> If I'm her, I'm taking door #1. But in order for that to happen, as has been outlined very effectively, I need to do my part to make it welcoming


These are choices.




> I was a neglectful husband. I was as accountable to my daughter about my role in this as I have been here.


This was a consequence. 

Do you understand the difference?


----------



## EleGirl

gridcom said:


> She is just sick of me and wants space. I would touch her. I would touch her all day if she let me...
> 
> This is the issue, too. We dont have money for a lawyer. Money is real tight right now. The paycheck comes in and the entire paycheck goes out save for maybe a few hundred for food and gas. The credit cards go up, and they're all maxed or close to it.
> 
> Bottom line is this. If we can't get into some form of unified and understood mode of reconciliation, than either I have to move in with my mother in the house I grew up in, rent free, and pay the bills here while my wife, who had the affair, successfully gets to live here on my income while my kids run around losing their minds because daddy now lives an hour away
> 
> or
> 
> I figure out a way to get her to leave the house, which she doesn't legally have to do. And if my gut is wrong and she is just stalling but deep down wants to be rid of me for good, then she seems to be OK with living like this with us in this weird state of marriage.
> 
> I am not about to force her to move out. I'm not going to overpower her and try to manipulate or evil her out of the house BECAUSE, as all the ladies on the thread completely understand, the affair is underscored by the fact that I was a neglectful husband.
> 
> So, just making her miserable until she drops her sword is NOT AN OPTION
> 
> I'd sooner move out than try to over power her.


I get where you are at... do not leave the home where your children live under any circumstance (well except if a judge orders it). It's your legal residence. Your children need you. Plus, a marriage cannot be fixed if the couple is separated.

If she wants space, she can move out.


----------



## gridcom

phillybeffandswiss said:


> These are choices.
> 
> 
> This was a consequence.
> 
> Do you understand the difference?


Honestly, no not really


----------



## gridcom

Anon, jld, LifeIsTooShort, EleGirl, LongWalk, ConanHub....since you seem to be on one side of this, let me ask you. In terms of boundaries right now, is there anything I should be doing? Should I be enforcing any rules, or creating any consequences ie "If you do X, then Y will happen?" I feel like my simple boundaries are enough, dont you?

Should I be more vigilant in being a detective, etc?


----------



## EleGirl

gridcom said:


> Honestly, no not really


I don't either. There are consequences for you wife no matter which choice she takes.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

gridcom said:


> Honestly, no not really





EleGirl said:


> I don't either. There are consequences for you wife no matter which choice she takes.


He was neglectful and his wife checked out and had some type of affair. He didn't get a choice in what punishment or consequences were enacted. These consequnces were enacted regardless of what he wanted. I'm not saying kill your marriage, but consequences get enacted whether she chooses to reconcile or not. Consequences occur regardless of her choice.

Also, there is only one example with true consequences. The other is his metaphorical view of what he hopes happens. If she feels he already murdered the marriage her view of #2 will be vastly different and she may feel consequence free.


----------



## EleGirl

gridcom said:


> Anon, jld, LifeIsTooShort, EleGirl, LongWalk, ConanHub....since you seem to be on one side of this, let me ask you. In terms of boundaries right now, is there anything I should be doing? Should I be enforcing any rules, or creating any consequences ie "If you do X, then Y will happen?" I feel like my simple boundaries are enough, dont you?
> 
> Should I be more vigilant in being a detective, etc?


Have you read the book "Surviving an Affair" by Dr. Harley?

Dr. Harley says that with his clients who follow what the book says to do (his play) something like 90% of the WS return to the marriage... but the kicker is that it can take as long as 2 years. I don't now what % end the affair if the stats were broken down on a month by month basis.

So basically, if you follow his advice, you have a 90% chance of repairing your marriage and even going on to have a marriage that was better than before because you two will have go through hell and back together and you both will, hopefully identify your own faults that let to the breakup of your marriage and have done a lot of fix yourselves.

Dr. Harley recommends that men do the Plan A part of his plan for at least 6 months. My take on it is that a person does it as long as they can, some people can only do it for a couple of weeks. That's ok for them.. we are all different.

Now, by now, most of the readers here (especially the male TAM members) are not liking what I've written and perhaps ready to jump on it. That's ok. We all have different points of view. I've seen the Marriage Builder (Dr. Harley) method work on a lot of couples.. though not here on TAM for obvious reasons.

One of the consequences that you have to put in place is that she has to find a new job. You will not consider reconciliation until she's not working with this guy. It sounds like you two need her income, so she needs to find another job.

So no reconciliation until she ends all contact with the joker and has a new job. 

Another consequence is you are not going to make it easy for her to cheat. You are not going to move out. You will not abandon your children. So, you are not just going to disappear and throw money her way. 

Should you do more detective work? I'm a huge proponent of it. Why? Based on my experience it's the only way you will ever know the truth. You cannot make good decisions without the truth.

The thing with snooping is that you have to decide is at what point do you have enough info.

What do you know about the OM? That's something you need info on. You might find something that can help you get him out of your life.

.


----------



## LongWalk

Kolors is a good thread to draw lessons from. We got a pretty good sense of their relationship and what when wrong. She started out admiring him very much. Some bad financial dealings with his family caused her to lose confidence in him. That contaminated their marriage. Eventually, she cut him off sexually and began to fantasize about trying life with OM. However, she made a big miscalculation. The guy or guys she wanted to test drive were not better than Kolors. They were not relationship material.

When cheating occurs there is always the question was it hot sex the cheater wanted or emotional affirmation or was it both. Kolors wife was flirting with OM and wanted him out so that she could take it to the next level. She never calculated that he would find a woman who wanted him for a relationship. She discounted all his success in getting a better paying job. 

Once she was sorry Kolors' wife said that she had never wanted a divorce. Literally that was false but from her perspective it was true that once he found his feet and was himself again, she recognized him for the man she had fallen in love with. That man she thought no longer existed. Her struggles with depression contributed to Kolors troubles with work. She was anxious and made him feel insecure. Once he was kicked out, he struggled hard but eventually was better off without her.

You have described your wife a bit but we don't really know her. You may be concealing negative things that she has done to protect her from criticism. 

Why are your family finances is poor shape? Who spends beyond your means? She, you or both?

One thing to keep in mind. Turnera, Cbnero and others are warning you against being a doormat. However, right now you don't really know what she thinks you are doing well or poorly. She laughed about all the books and articles, but maybe she thinks it's good or maybe she's undecided. Perhaps she is repulsed by the idea that you are searching for some relationship repair cookbook formula. She might just want to feel that you are being genuine, whatever that means.

Does your wife have friends in whom she confides?

Are her friends toxic?

I would worry more about GF's who are bad influence than work at the moment.

Women can go a really long time without sex when they are unhappy. But if you enter a long phase of a sexless relationship, how is that going to affect your attractiveness in her eyes. It's a bit of a Catch 22. She doesn't want you and the longer that continues, the lower your status sinks.


----------



## EleGirl

phillybeffandswiss said:


> He was neglectful and his wife checked out and had some type of affair. He didn't get a choice in what punishment or consequences were enacted. These consequnces were enacted regardless of what he wanted. I'm not saying kill your marriage, but consequences get enacted whether she chooses to reconcile or not. Consequences occur regardless of her choice.
> 
> Also, there is only one example with true consequences. The other is his metaphorical view of what he hopes happens. If she feels he already murdered the marriage her view of #2 will be vastly different and she may feel consequence free.


He had a choice.. his choice over a long period of time, a choice to treat her better.

He has a choice now too.. he can choose to try to work things out.. for example using the Marriage Builder stuff in "Surviving and Affair". Or he can choose to bag it and file for divorce.

Just because he did not list every possible choice he has does not mean that he does not have choices.


----------



## ConanHub

lifeistooshort said:


> If I was her and he demanded I quite my job today I'd tell him to take a long walk off a short pier. Not because of OM but because I wouldn't quite my job if I wasn't sure the marriage was going to work out.
> 
> He can make that demand if they get to the point where they're going to try to salvage the marriage.
> 
> I've noticed that unfaithful men are never told to quite their job today, even when they had affairs with coworkers. I wonder why that is?


That isn't accurate. The only time I would give that advice is if I was advising a BW to divorce and take him to the cleaners. I have given that advice more than once.

Otherwise I, and other men, will give the same advice that the WS has to get a different job asap if the marriage is to stand a chance.

grid is working his thing here so I'm just going to watch and remind about healthy behavior now and then but he got my interest a ways back because he stopped acting like a total pvssy and started exhibiting a kind of strength.

He seems wired for this and I think he might just have his finger on the pulse of his situation here.

I would take a far different path but I've never really been neglectful and I'm one serious S.O.B. when it comes to fvcking around and marriage vows and Mrs. Conan knows better than anyone what that means if she even chose to dance near flames. She loves me for it.

grid is who he is and I think he is capable of this and is using it to improve himself as well.

I would probably be described as about as alpha as it gets and I don't disapprove of this man and this approach.

The last goes out to the poster who was wondering where we are.

I think grid has a ways to go but I think he might just get there.

I'm not going to blow rainbow bright, cotton candy unicorns up his ass but I'm optimistic about his chances.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

EleGirl said:


> He had a choice.. his choice over a long period of time, a choice to treat her better.
> 
> He has a choice now too.. he can choose to try to work things out.. for example using the Marriage Builder stuff in "Surviving and Affair". Or he can choose to bag it and file for divorce.
> 
> Just because he did not list every possible choice he has does not mean that he does not have choices.


No, I said he had zero choice in the consequence she enacted. I didn't say he had no choices in treating her better. I'll chalk it up to us talking pass each other because your response is to something I did not imply or type.


----------



## gridcom

LongWalk said:


> Kolors is a good thread to draw lessons from. We got a pretty good sense of their relationship and what when wrong. She started out admiring him very much. Some bad financial dealings with his family caused her to lose confidence in him. That contaminated their marriage. Eventually, she cut him off sexually and began to fantasize about trying life with OM. However, she made a big miscalculation. The guy or guys she wanted to test drive were not better than Kolors. They were not relationship material.
> 
> When cheating occurs there is always the question was it hot sex the cheater wanted or emotional affirmation or was it both. Kolors wife was flirting with OM and wanted him out so that she could take it to the next level. She never calculated that he would find a woman who wanted him for a relationship. She discounted all his success in getting a better paying job.
> 
> Once she was sorry Kolors' wife said that she had never wanted a divorce. Literally that was false but from her perspective it was true that once he found his feet and was himself again, she recognized him for the man she had fallen in love with. That man she thought no longer existed. Her struggles with depression contributed to Kolors troubles with work. She was anxious and made him feel insecure. Once he was kicked out, he struggled hard but eventually was better off without her.
> 
> You have described your wife a bit but we don't really know her. You may be concealing negative things that she has done to protect her from criticism.
> 
> Why are your family finances is poor shape? Who spends beyond your means? She, you or both?
> 
> One thing to keep in mind. Turnera, Cbnero and others are warning you against being a doormat. However, right now you don't really know what she thinks you are doing well or poorly. She laughed about all the books and articles, but maybe she thinks it's good or maybe she's undecided. Perhaps she is repulsed by the idea that you are searching for some relationship repair cookbook formula. She might just want to feel that you are being genuine, whatever that means.
> 
> Does your wife have friends in whom she confides?
> 
> Are her friends toxic?
> 
> I would worry more about GF's who are bad influence than work at the moment.
> 
> Women can go a really long time without sex when they are unhappy. But if you enter a long phase of a sexless relationship, how is that going to affect your attractiveness in her eyes. It's a bit of a Catch 22. She doesn't want you and the longer that continues, the lower your status sinks.


It's not easy for me to criticize my wife. Besides this "turd in the punchbowl" affair, I really don't have any complaints. She is stubborn, not the tidiest person, but I have to be honest, other than that I don't really have much negative to say. She could be more romantic, I guess. But, I am less romantic than her so who I am I to say? I'm sure with a more touchy/feely type cat, she is more romantic.

She does have two friends of her's who are very much supporting her decision to get rid of me. They both happen to be friends from High School and they live in her hometown about 90 minutes from here. One of them was married briefly and I never got to know her, but she's never been a fan of mine. The second one, hmmm, she had a crumby husband who cheated on her without remorse and made her life miserable, then he got into a motorcycle accident and died. Since then, she's had a lot of sex with a lot of marginal dare I say, white trash. Again, I never really got to know her.
I think both of these woman are vigorously trying to get my wife to leave me. I think part of it is because all of us have those friends with whom we just want to complain about all the sh*t parts of our relationships with. If salt is good and pepper is bad, these friends for whatever reason just get the pepper. I know one friend of mine who gives me nothing but the "pepper" in his relationship and I am aware of it. I just let him vent.

She has other friends and I think they have all, at various points, tried to tell her she was making a mistake. Some of them, now that they see she is serious, are trying to be more supportive of her wants and point of view as most friends would be. Her best friend here in town also has a crummy marriage and all I;ve heard for years is how she complains to my wife about her crummy marriage. I've told my wife FOR YEARS that i dont want to hear about other people's marital problems, because I know that it's one sided. DUH!
And this friend in question, when my wife revealed she was having an affair, told her she was like an addict and was acting like a teenager. I don't know what her position on this is now. My wife's sister has been very very supportive of me this entire time. Her and I are close. if my wife is Pinky Tuscadero then my sister in law is Leather Tuscadero (sorry if you dont get it). We've always had a good relationship and she's come to my defense this entire time.

There is one friend of hers at her job that disgusts me. Because she not only knows about the affair, but endorses it. She is a newlywed (sort of) and has no kids and here is someone that is encouraging a woman to act this way. My wife thinks that the word of her affair at her job is limited to one or two people, but I know for a fact that there is at least 3 and maybe 4 people that know. And if thats the case, then I'm sure everybody knows. These are 20 something kids. Their married 41 year old manager is having an affair with a dude 10 years younger. You think word of that is isolated? One of those kids is our main babysitter. She was over the other night and I have to look at this person. Worse, she has to look at me.


----------



## Chaparral

jld said:


> Worked for Stillkeepinghopeful.


That would be one example in a couple of thousand. He also didn't kowtow and run around like a puppy on a leash.


----------



## lifeistooshort

I have to say that in the last number of pages this thread has been relatively civil.

I like that.

Not always common with such a heated subject.
I think it's a testament to gridcom.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

jld said:


> Worked for Stillkeepinghopeful.


BTW, I also used to give advise similar to what he's getting. I used to have links to plan A and plan B in my signature. It all makes sense. The problem is that, though counter intuitive as it may be, you cannot nice a cheating,hateful spouse back into a marriage. Reconciliation when a wife cheats only happens 15% of time. Reading thousands of threads here definitively indicates if anything works its tough love, very tough love.

Time after time we have seen that work. Frankly, I don't see anything working in this case. The only chance he had was going shock and awe, telling her to leave and exposing to everyone and their brother. Not only is she not embarrassed and ashamed of her sin and adultery, she's happy with the way things are going.

While she's gone partying at the wedding, OP should pack her things and put them in storage. Answer none of her communications while she's away, see a lawyer and change the locks.


----------



## gridcom

Chaparral said:


> BTW, I also used to give advise similar to what he's getting. I used to have links to plan A and plan B in my signature. It all makes sense. The problem is that, though counter intuitive as it may be, you cannot nice a cheating,hateful spouse back into a marriage. Reconciliation when a wife cheats only happens 15% of time. Reading thousands of threads here definitively indicates if anything works its tough love, very tough love.
> 
> Time after time we have seen that work. Frankly, I don't see anything working in this case. The only chance he had was going shock and awe, telling her to leave and exposing to everyone and their brother. Not only is she not embarrassed and ashamed of her sin and adultery, she's happy with the way things are going.
> 
> While she's gone partying at the wedding, OP should pack her things and put them in storage. Answer none of her communications while she's away, see a lawyer and change the locks.


Yeah, uh..... no.

So then she drives home from the wedding to find the her stuff on the front step and the locks changed. Obviously, I had to make the kids sleep elsewhere that day so they dont see the absolute bomb that goes off in my front yard. So, then my wife calls the cops because, you know, kicking her out and throwing her stuff out is illegal. And then maybe she decides to get an order of protection on me because now that I've made this silly move, we cant be in the same house. And since I was the aggressor, guess who has to go. And so, then I cant see my kids and word spreads that this happened, all her friends and family are like "what an a$$hole!" (some of them honestly would applaud, lets be honest) because of the story my wife has created. 

Then she cant make ends meet so she goes to her family with hat in hand for money to see a lawyer who's first move is to make sure I keep paying the bills.

In the meantime, I am in an 8x10 bedroom in the middle of nowhere missing my kids and my kids are bewildered missing me.

And how is this a good idea?


----------



## cbnero

The ladies have more insight into the female psyche than us guys most likely. I think their advice would be most helpful for a stressed marriage - prior to an affair. Since WW is in the fog right now, even she doesn't likely know what she wants, thinks, or feels. Bag of cats in her head.

So, as a logical male, my advice is strong boundaries giving her what she wants. When/if her words and actions change then both parties can discuss reconciliation and if they want to pursue it. I hate this "neglectful husband" stuff though. Compared to who??? Exactly. 

You did your best. She did her best. No one is perfect so that's a dumb thing to say IMO. Read the Just Let Them Go thread. Very good.

I get your boundaries and respect them. How do you plan to communicate them to her?


----------



## EleGirl

Chaparral said:


> BTW, I also used to give advise similar to what he's getting. I used to have links to plan A and plan B in my signature. It all makes sense. The problem is that, though counter intuitive as it may be, you cannot nice a cheating,hateful spouse back into a marriage. * Reconciliation when a wife cheats only happens 15% of time. *Reading thousands of threads here definitively indicates if anything works its tough love, very tough love.
> 
> Time after time we have seen that work. Frankly, I don't see anything working in this case. The only chance he had was going shock and awe, telling her to leave and exposing to everyone and their brother. Not only is she not embarrassed and ashamed of her sin and adultery, she's happy with the way things are going.
> 
> While she's gone partying at the wedding, OP should pack her things and put them in storage. Answer none of her communications while she's away, see a lawyer and change the locks.


Everything I've read puts the percentage of couples who reconcile after divorce at 60-75%. I've seen higher number, but I think that 60-75% is probably more realistic.


"Reports have said that 60-75% of couples who have experienced a betrayal stay together. "
Frequently Asked Questions about Infidelity


"The good news is there are huge numbers of marriages that don’t just survive affairs, they are significantly better than they were before the affair. The key to a marriage surviving an affair lies in its good marital history. If 20 percent of a couple’s history is simultaneously viewed as positive by both spouses, they have a better than 90 percent chance of making it.” 

Can My Marriage Survive an Affair? | First Things First

"75 percent of couples are able to make it through an infidelity crisis"

Marriage Crisis, Separation, Infidelity - Doctor Becky

"Statistics indicate that couples who attempt to reconcile after an affair have a 70 percent chance of staying together,"

Affair Repair - Stay Happily Married


----------



## EleGirl

cbnero said:


> The ladies have more insight into the female psyche than us guys most likely. I think their advice would be most helpful for a stressed marriage - prior to an affair. Since WW is in the fog right now, even she doesn't likely know what she wants, thinks, or feels. Bag of cats in her head.
> 
> So, as a logical male, my advice is strong boundaries giving her what she wants. When/if her words and actions change then both parties can discuss reconciliation and if they want to pursue it. I hate this "neglectful husband" stuff though. Compared to who??? Exactly.
> 
> You did your best. She did her best. No one is perfect so that's a dumb thing to say IMO. Read the Just Let Them Go thread. Very good.
> 
> I get your boundaries and respect them. How do you plan to communicate them to her?


Being a logical female who's seen a lot of couples reconcile, even in situations that look a whole lost worse than the OP's... I'd say go with the experts who have helped a lot of people recover their marriage from very bad situations.. >


----------



## cbnero

As a man who went down the same road as grid and had his heart stomped I can tell you it's worse than you can imagine. Call it a gender discrepancy if you will. Men don't know how women feel and women definitely don't know how men feel. It's a $hit sandwich you're serving him. We all know it. Supposedly it will turn into a delicious steak dinner. I am curious how this turns out. I'll tone it down and listen from now on.


----------



## ConanHub

EleGirl said:


> Everything I've read puts the percentage of couples who reconcile after divorce at 60-75%. I've seen higher number, but I think that 60-75% is probably more realistic.
> 
> 
> "Reports have said that 60-75% of couples who have experienced a betrayal stay together. "
> Frequently Asked Questions about Infidelity
> 
> 
> "The good news is there are huge numbers of marriages that don’t just survive affairs, they are significantly better than they were before the affair. The key to a marriage surviving an affair lies in its good marital history. If 20 percent of a couple’s history is simultaneously viewed as positive by both spouses, they have a better than 90 percent chance of making it.”
> 
> Can My Marriage Survive an Affair? | First Things First
> 
> "75 percent of couples are able to make it through an infidelity crisis"
> 
> Marriage Crisis, Separation, Infidelity - Doctor Becky
> 
> "Statistics indicate that couples who attempt to reconcile after an affair have a 70 percent chance of staying together,"
> 
> Affair Repair - Stay Happily Married


I think statistics on this might not be accurate.

I've personally, I know anecdotal, seen about 20-25% survive and I haven't taken gender into the equation but the majority of times where the wife cheated the marriage was cooked.

I wouldn't put much stock in Harley's statistics simply because there are things his site will not report and I don't believe his method has been independently investigated. I have seen his advice do unbelievable damage and I modified his plan A and had one of the most successful reconciliations I have ever seen.

I don't feel bad about this situation at this point. I don't think he should fully implement plan A but continue as best he can.

He is employing elements of plan A and his gut may well be right about his wife's nature.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

EleGirl said:


> Everything I've read puts the percentage of couples who reconcile after divorce at 60-75%. I've seen higher number, but I think that 60-75% is probably more realistic.
> 
> 
> "Reports have said that 60-75% of couples who have experienced a betrayal stay together. "
> Frequently Asked Questions about Infidelity
> 
> 
> "The good news is there are huge numbers of marriages that don’t just survive affairs, they are significantly better than they were before the affair. The key to a marriage surviving an affair lies in its good marital history. If 20 percent of a couple’s history is simultaneously viewed as positive by both spouses, they have a better than 90 percent chance of making it.”
> 
> Can My Marriage Survive an Affair? | First Things First
> 
> "75 percent of couples are able to make it through an infidelity crisis"
> 
> Marriage Crisis, Separation, Infidelity - Doctor Becky
> 
> "Statistics indicate that couples who attempt to reconcile after an affair have a 70 percent chance of staying together,"
> 
> Affair Repair - Stay Happily Married


Those are amazing statistics. They sure don't hold to any website I've seen. The common stat is that between thirty and thirty five percent of couples survive infidelity. I've also read seventy percent of couples wish they had reconciled. Supposedly, If the husband cheats, 45% of women will reconcile. By my math, that leaves about 15% of marriages where the wife cheats that survive.

Its also reported that 50% of marriages survive infidelity in Britain.


----------



## Chaparral

BTW, 70% of people that try reconciling means nothing numerically. You have to know the percentage that try. Most just file for divorce. 

In your first example, the folks your quoting are trying to sell their marriage saving books.


----------



## Anon Pink

Hey Grid, just back from our 30th anniversary dinner. Yeah 30 years but 3 different marriages to be honest. Right now we are newly weds for marriage number 3! During the end of marriage number 2 I was pissed off. 

You asked about boundaries...
Meh, I just typed out a list and deleted it. What you're doing is good. You know her better than anyone so you know what is most likely to work. I think you have every right to expect some things from her she may not want to agree to. 

Frankly, the state of your finances will most certainly work in your favor! Who knew living pay check to pay check would pay off?

In case your wife actually is checking up on this thread...
Mrs Grid, Don't let the angry bunch put you off. I really think your marriage has a chance. Although you may not want to hear it right now the fact remains you're one lucky SOB! Your husband took a kick in the nuts and instead of coming up swinging he immediately recognized his own failures that lead up to your vulnerability to cheating. That's huge! I don't know why some people have to be threatened with their lives being turned upside down before they act but that is the way it is. 

I think you should write. Write down your version of your disappointment. Write down what you wanted and what you got. Write down how you tried and were ignored. Write it all down and go over it with your husband. This will begin the healing. Though you may be thinking you don't want to heal this marriage, you have to admit that live would be a hell of a lot easier if you and your husband could be a happy couple together rather than you being a divorce with two kids and a job that doesn't support you. Flimsy reason to try but a real reason regardless.


----------



## GusPolinski

While you're writing, Mrs. Grid, maybe also write down the truth w/ respect to how many times you were intimate w/ OM, because we all know it was more than just once.


----------



## EleGirl

Chaparral said:


> BTW, 70% of people that try reconciling means nothing numerically. You have to know the percentage that try. Most just file for divorce.
> 
> In your first example, the folks your quoting are trying to sell their marriage saving books.


Yes, I noticed the wording in that one quote. It does not quite aline with other things I've read.

But one thing is clear, we know how what percentage of people who do not try to reconcile end up not reconciled... all of them.

I've read those same numbers from other sources that are not selling marriage saving books. They have been pretty consistent for a very long time across most studies.


----------



## EleGirl

ConanHub said:


> I think statistics on this might not be accurate.
> 
> I've personally, I know anecdotal, seen about 20-25% survive and I haven't taken gender into the equation but the majority of times where the wife cheated the marriage was cooked.


Anecdotal "evidence" means very little. A lot of any one person's anecdotal evidence depends of the people they self-select to associate with. Most of the people who know whose spouse cheated recovered after the affair(s) was discovered. I now many who have been together 10, 20 or more years after that. 

Just was what we see on websites like this one tells us nothing about society at large because posers self select on any website. On TAM we have most men who have been cheated on and who quickly ended the marriage.


----------



## gridcom

Anon Pink said:


> Hey Grid, just back from our 30th anniversary dinner. Yeah 30 years but 3 different marriages to be honest. Right now we are newly weds for marriage number 3! During the end of marriage number 2 I was pissed off.
> 
> You asked about boundaries...
> Meh, I just typed out a list and deleted it. What you're doing is good. You know her better than anyone so you know what is most likely to work. I think you have every right to expect some things from her she may not want to agree to.
> 
> Frankly, the state of your finances will most certainly work in your favor! Who knew living pay check to pay check would pay off?
> 
> In case your wife actually is checking up on this thread...
> Mrs Grid, Don't let the angry bunch put you off. I really think your marriage has a chance. Although you may not want to hear it right now the fact remains you're one lucky SOB! Your husband took a kick in the nuts and instead of coming up swinging he immediately recognized his own failures that lead up to your vulnerability to cheating. That's huge! I don't know why some people have to be threatened with their lives being turned upside down before they act but that is the way it is.
> 
> I think you should write. Write down your version of your disappointment. Write down what you wanted and what you got. Write down how you tried and were ignored. Write it all down and go over it with your husband. This will begin the healing. Though you may be thinking you don't want to heal this marriage, you have to admit that live would be a hell of a lot easier if you and your husband could be a happy couple together rather than you being a divorce with two kids and a job that doesn't support you. Flimsy reason to try but a real reason regardless.


Anon Pink, that is super nice of you. I don't think my wife has checked in here. I gave her the link way way back when it first started when I was out of my mind and trying to bap her over the head with a gatrillion voices. She may have checked it once then. I asked her sometime later if she ever checked it and she just dismissed it. Keep in mind, between July 14 and Sept 7 I posted a total of 5 updates in those 7 weeks, so I sort of left this thread for dead for awhile. I think I've posted 20 today alone 
That said, I think I gave this link to my mom at one point too, so HI MOM! She's not reading though. if she was she'd be posting by now "My son! He's a wonderful boy!"

Anyway, man I'd be real tempted to remind her of this place but honestly I need a place of my own to vent and some people to talk to since I honestly dont want to bum out those who know me and those who love me are getting kind of sick of me. And, I think much of what I say here is a bit revealing to how my motor is running right now. 

But, she does have the link so I guess there is always the chance she is peeping in. She's never on her computer though. This place seems like it would be a nightmare on a mobile phone.

Anyway, I am going to take it easy tonight, read some of this here Bible. I really do appreciate all of you, those cheering for us and even those who think I am a weak as$ pile of poo.


----------



## Anon Pink

GusPolinski said:


> While you're writing, Mrs. Grid, maybe also write down the truth w/ respect to how many times you were intimate w/ OM, because we all know it was more than just once.


Pffft luckily she doesn't answer to you and truthfully those details are meaningless except as fuel to the fire of the Bitter Band of Brothers.

And "what we all know" means bupkis to Mrs Grid.

You used to be funny Gus, what's happened to you?


----------



## GusPolinski

Anon Pink said:


> Pffft luckily she doesn't answer to you...


Absolutely correct. She is, however, accountable to her husband.



Anon Pink said:


> ...and truthfully those details are meaningless except as fuel to the fire of the Bitter Band of Brothers.
> 
> And "what we all know" means bupkis to Mrs Grid.


Said details would probably be pretty meaningful to Grid, especially since he's currently under the impression that a) it was "just once" and b) the affair is over.

Want to reconcile? Start w/ the truth.



Anon Pink said:


> You used to be funny Gus, what's happened to you?


Good news! I'm STILL hilarious! But only when I want to be.

Well... sometimes even when I don't.


----------



## tom67

GusPolinski said:


> Absolutely correct. She is, however, accountable to her husband.
> 
> 
> 
> Said details would probably be pretty meaningful to Grid, especially since he's currently under the impression that a) it was "just once" and b) the affair is over.
> 
> Want to reconcile? Start w/ the truth.
> 
> 
> 
> Good news! I'm STILL hilarious! But only when I want to be.
> 
> Well... sometimes even when I'm not.



:grin2:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cLkmYkEpxA


----------



## GusPolinski

Tom.

Dude.

Please.

Enough w/ the videos.

Please.

Respect.


----------



## EleGirl

GusPolinski said:


> Said details would probably be pretty meaningful to Grid, especially since he's currently under the impression that a) it was "just once" and b) the affair is over.


But Gus.. it might have only been 'just once' and the affair might be over. 

The problem is he will never know if she's telling the truth or not unless he has solid evidence. Even asking someone to write it all down does not do that much. 

What I finally did, after my ex only admitted to things as I found them, I told him that I as done looking. But I would simply assume the worse on everything. He had a chance to tell me everything (I could see if it jived with things that I did not tell him I knew about.) or he could accept my assumption. He told me to go with the assumption. 

The problem with details is that there are always more details. If a person writes something down because they honestly did not recall accurately, do they get burned at the stake?

If his wife writes down that it was once, how does he know if she's telling the truth... how about 3 time? 100 times?

There has to come a time when to reconcile we accept that there was an affair and we will never know everything.

In my case, the reconciliation went great. By the time about 4 years passed from the affair, it was something in the distant past that meant nothing because we had worked through it. 

We did eventually divorce, but his affair had nothing to do with the divorce. 

.


----------



## tom67

Gus even Grid was trying to lighten the mood.

He has made his choice and I totally respect him for it and wish him nothing but the best.

In this case IMO I was just adding some levity.

Grid I'll stop it if it is counter productive.
Anyway.


----------



## GusPolinski

Grid,

OK, so you've been a neglectful d**chebag. That's on you. Own it. Pick it apart. Identify negative behaviors and fix them. That's fair. Hell, it's common damn sense.

But don't let your WW heap anything that ISN'T rightfully yours to own onto your shoulders. Namely, her affair. And, again, for as long as she's still working w/ OM, the affair is ongoing.

And OK... what @lifeistooshort posted about your WW not wanting to leave her job based on her apprehension that your marriage may not survive does _seem_ to make sense, at least on the surface. Upon closer inspection, though, it falls apart.

Again, you've been a neglectful assh*le. You've admitted that. Again, that's a good thing (that you've admitted it and are looking to address it, that is). And if that's truly the limit and scope of your transgressions, then everything that you've done to damage your marriage is known to the both of you and out in the open. Not so w/ your wife's affair, and especially not as long as she's still working alongside OM.

And as far as them not working on the same shift anymore, not seeing each other as much anymore, or whatever garbage she's heaving at you at the moment...? For now you shouldn't believe a thing she's telling you that you can't independently verify for yourself. Again, common damn sense.

In expressing a desire to reconcile, you've taken a leap of faith. If your marriage is to survive, your wife needs to do the same. She should start by getting a new job.

Again... 

Common. Damn. Sense.


----------



## Anon Pink

GusPolinski said:


> Absolutely correct. She is, however, accountable to her husband.
> 
> 
> 
> Said details would probably be pretty meaningful to Grid, especially since he's currently under the impression that a) it was "just once" and b) the affair is over.
> 
> Want to reconcile? Start w/ the truth.
> 
> 
> 
> Good news! I'm STILL hilarious! But only when I want to be.
> 
> Well... sometimes even when I'm not.


The point I was trying to make, and failed, was that the details are irrelevant and only serve to fuel mind movies and resentment. She stepped out and was unfaithful. She wasn't a serial cheater, she wasn't giving BJ's in dance clubs. She had a normal affair that wasn't going anywhere and whose only purpose was to convince Mrs Grid that good loving is indeed out there.

Now she needs to be convinced that good loving can and will happen at home, and that it would be best for everyone if she agreed to that and jumped on board to help make it happen.

This doesn't rug sweep the affair, but there is no point in seeking accountability if she isn't planning on being Mrs Grid for much longer. So get off the affair train and get on board with convincing Mrs Grid to find a way to work it out.


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> Worked for Stillkeepinghopeful.


In all fairness, it would probably work for _anyone_ devoid of self-respect.


----------



## GusPolinski

Oh, and hey Grid, one more question...

Has there been any physical intimacy between yourself and Mrs. Grid since her affair came to light?


----------



## tom67

GusPolinski said:


> Grid,
> 
> OK, so you've been a neglectful d**chebag. That's on you. Own it. Pick it apart. Identify negative behaviors and fix them. That's fair. Hell, it's common damn sense.
> 
> But don't let your WW heap anything that ISN'T rightfully yours to own onto your shoulders. Namely, her affair. And, again, for as long as she's still working w/ OM, the affair is ongoing.
> 
> And OK... what @lifeistooshort posted about your WW not wanting to leave her job based on her apprehension that your marriage may not survive does _seem_ to make sense, at least on the surface. Upon closer inspection, though, it falls apart.
> 
> Again, you've been a neglectful assh*le. You've admitted that. Again, that's a good thing (that you've admitted it and are looking to address it, that is). And if that's truly the limit and scope of your transgressions, then everything that you've done to damage your marriage is known to the both of you and out in the open. Not so w/ your wife's affair, and especially not as long as she's still working alongside OM.
> 
> And as far as them not working on the same shift anymore, not seeing each other as much anymore, or whatever garbage she's heaving at you at the moment...? For now you shouldn't believe a thing she's telling you that you can't independently verify for yourself. Again, common damn sense.
> 
> In expressing a desire to reconcile, you've taken a leap of faith. If your marriage is to survive, your wife needs to do the same. She should start by getting a new job.
> 
> Again...
> 
> Common. Damn. Sense.


:iagree::iagree:
Limbo is [email protected]


----------



## GusPolinski

Anon Pink said:


> The point I was trying to make, and failed, was that the details are irrelevant and only serve to fuel mind movies and resentment. She stepped out and was unfaithful. *She wasn't a serial cheater, she wasn't giving BJ's in dance clubs. She had a normal affair that wasn't going anywhere and whose only purpose was to convince Mrs Grid that good loving is indeed out there.*


Maybe.



Anon Pink said:


> Now she needs to be convinced that good loving can and will happen at home, and that it would be best for everyone if she agreed to that and jumped on board to help make it happen.
> 
> This doesn't rug sweep the affair, but there is no point in seeking accountability if she isn't planning on being Mrs Grid for much longer. So get off the affair train and get on board with convincing Mrs Grid to find a way to work it out.


I'm all for reconciliation, but only when both full accountability and the absolute, complete, and unfiltered truth are both front and center to be surveyed by both the BS and WS.

Anything less IS rugsweeping.


----------



## Anon Pink

@GusPolinski,

I do not disagree but if you think of reconciliation as a conference table about which the parties sit and hash things out, it makes no point to push for accountability until she is sitting at the table and has an interest in reconciling. 

Don't think I'm in any way encouraging rug sweeping, I just think if his goal is to reconcile, she has to be willing to do the work required, just as he does. Right now, she needs to be convinced to come to the table.

ETA: disagree on the infinite details. 

Esther Perel actually has a TED talk about surviving an affair. I agree with her 100%


----------



## tom67

Sigh...
Lets break into Machievelli's points

https://jacksparadise.wordpress.com/2013/03/11/the-8020-rule-of-sex-and-dating-theory-or-fact/

http://www.sosuave.com/articles/ss/state.htm

http://www.doctorhugo.org/brain4.html


----------



## ConanHub

Details will be up to grid if and when he gets to that point.

Hahaha! She found good lovin in her affair? No. She found she could attract an idiot from work that actually thought screwing a married mother was a good idea. In reality it could cost them both their jobs, has cost them their reputations and has zero chance of doing anything except help them ruin their lives.

She only thought it was a good thing because she allowed herself to become queen dumbass. Not dealing with her husband or children like a grownup.

I agree that she needs convincing to come to the table but it is pure bvllshyt to call her affair good in any form.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

Gridcom,

I didn't realize OM was 10 years younger than your wife. Although love is blind, that sort of age gap suggests that your wife was a booty call. If he fell in love with your wife, it makes him almost pathetic because he doesn't sound like some well to do guy who can cushion your wife from the fall in living standards that is inevitable with divorce. So this affair was escapism. Your wife's sane friends are trying to convince her not to be swayed by the flattery of this younger horn dog.

There is a _confessions of a player piece_ that is reposted with some regularity here. The player explains that the attractive married woman is his preferred sex partner. He loves the chase and the score. They don't don't have STDs. And they will give wild monkey sex in exchange for the feeling excitement that their life is going somewhere. He has no intention of marrying them or shouldering any responsibility when their lives crash in divorce. To heighten the intensity, he tries to break down their inhibitions so that they do things for him that they never did for their BH.

Some hate him when the affair runs its course but he doesn't care. He figures that he owes them nothing. They allowed themselves to be seduced. He merely exploited the romantic fantasies. I think JLD would groan to read it because it plays to the fears of the BH.

AnonPink and JDL feel that if your wife is basically a good woman who lost her mind – which is what infatuation is – but who will recenter if you remain constant is not at all impossible.

All sorts of scenarios exist. If you read the wayward forum on Surviving Infidelity you can hear from women who are trying to reconcile who want nothing more than hysterical bonding with BH. They are grateful that their husband still wants them. The OM is a sexual anathema. The sexual pleasure with OM is a repugnant memory.

On the other side there are those WW who no longer feel sexual attraction for their husband. The affair sex was like a high pressure water jet that blasted him out of their sex and reproductive lives. The former wayward wives who coach the cheater in withdrawal to work on saving their marriages discourage them from associating with toxic friends. 

But as you note same sex friends who complain about their marriages are often just venting. The truly toxic friends are the ones who add partying, alcohol and drugs into the mix. Your wife's life seems split between the sound and unhealthy. Her job seems largely a negative influence.

You have fairly flexible work hours, so in the event that you divorce, you'll be able to handle 50/50 custody. That will reduce any spousal support. So post D life for your wife will be gritty. I agree that using this as a stick is an unsubtle move that will further kill her love for you. Those who say there have been no consequences are missing your clear message to her – if she continues to cheat you are done. That is a consequence but only if she believes that you will lower the boom.

If she is in contact with OM, and has even snuck in a quickie once a week, you are done, right? You have said as much to your wife and to yourself via this thread. That is why EleGirl suggested you snoop. Snooping can be in your wife's best interest, can't it?

Knowing that there are boundaries gives you inner strength. I think your wife knows they are there. The wedding is a test of what she can get away with. How do you know she is not going to stop at the OM's place on the way there and back? You have the tracker on her phone. But OM can drive with her. Where is she going to stay?


----------



## LongWalk

TH: Gus is funny because he speaks the truth. Mach's "crotch musk huffed out a paper bag". I liked Mach but that was funny because it was true.


----------



## manfromlamancha

I agree with Gus, ConanHub, Tom, Chaparal etc.

Lets be clear about what happened and what you know or don't know about this.

First of all she has been at this for a year and claimed they only fvcked once (when she decided to tell you that she was ready to drop you for ........ blah blah blah reasons). Now you must suspect that the chances are high that they did this more than once. A healthy young horn dog like the POSOM would have been on to her and pushing for sex every single time - there is no romance story here from his side (but according to you she is in love with him because he is a "wonderful" person).


Second, grid said he couldn't find anything bad to say about his wife!!! This is incredible (and I really recommend testosterone injections, they work!). She is someone who lied and cheated for a year - successfully - so while she may not be a serial cheater (and we still do not really know this for sure) but she is a 40+ year old disrespectful, lying cheat with loose morals! So please remove the lipstick from this pig!


I am not saying (and Gus has already pointed this out) that you shouldn't try and fix whatever is wrong with you in the marriage but - DO NOT TAKE ANY RESPONSIBILITY FOR HER CHEATING and SHE HAS TO ACKNOWLEDGE HER CHEATING AS VERY VERY BAD BEHAVIOUR!


And here is the killer for me - she continues to treat you like dirt and you still try and portray her as someone good and worth chasing after. When you were advised to have her clothes in a bag when she got home from the wedding, you have to understand that this was metaphoric advice. Move her to another bedroom, start treating her like what she really is, do the 180 to help you heal yourself, protect yourself legally, financially and custody wise etc.


Expose this affair - you say all the youngsters at her work know about this more mature manager behaving like a silly teen around this guy and without morals (in fact she tries to justify it) - what would be the impact if the employers really knew what was going on? Would she care? If the answer is yes then you should have her attention on how things are going to proceed from now on. She has to acknowledge what she has done and stop trying to justify it. Through mediation she has to give you an amicable divorce. And you need to DUMP HER SORRY A$$!


All her friends who are divorced or single and fvck about regularly, should give you a clue as to what she is really like so wake up man! She is not a good person - by any stretch of imagination. And anyone who tries to justify what she did is wrong (apart from the sisterhood of the travelling pants here as this is normal for them).


----------



## LongWalk

Worth a re-read – your first post:



> I am suddenly faced with the news that my wife just this week got intimate with a co-worker who she claims she has been in love with for a year unbeknownst to me. We have been together 19 years, and married for 13 years. We have two girls, ages 10 and 5. She wants this marriage to end so she can "follow her heart" and pursue a new life with this man. She admits her desire for this is so strong that it comes before all the obvious consequences.


----------



## lifeistooshort

GusPolinski said:


> While you're writing, Mrs. Grid, maybe also write down the truth w/ respect to how many times you were intimate w/ OM, because we all know it was more than just once.


What are odds that if she hadn't confessed but instead he'd caught her you'd be saying that if only she'd confessed on her own she'd have credibility? 

If it was in fact one time how would you know?

And considering that as of right now she's saying that she's not committed to the marriage and trying to stick it to him what would be her incentive to lie? 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## manfromlamancha

An attempt to make herself seem like a better person than she is ?


----------



## cbnero

She's cheating on her husband. She has zero credibility either way. I read the OP Longwalk reposted - holy smokes where is any of the hope some people are talking about. This woman is toxic!


----------



## Chaparral

The book you need to read is the MMSLP book linked to below. If anything works it will.

You're displaying nice guy and overly beta traits now. You may as well beat her off with a stick. Try something that has worked. You've disrespected her in the past and taken her for granted. Making amends doesn't entail behaving like a weasel.

Refusing to investigate the truth is cowardly. Would your wife want to be with a coward or a man that doesn't fight for his marriage?

At almost every step of the way you have taken the path that seems easiest. That path leads to disrespect and divorce.

For example, you approached the posom three times. Once was too many if you didn't deliver consequences, all you did then was make a fool of yourself to them both. It also made your wife look like SL/t to her coworkers when he bragged about it.


----------



## turnera

gridcom said:


> I understand the end of that thread she sees him with a new woman and his wife, OF COURSE, regretting pushing him out the door.


Do you understand the underlying dynamic of what you stated? I hope you can see it.

WIFE sees HIM moving on and not accepting her waffling. 

Wife WANTS him now.

Basic psychology. If it's handed to us on a silver platter, we ignore it, disdain it, piss on it (i.e. your wife's anger at a point at which she SHOULD be sorry for what she did to you).

If we see we can't just have it any time we want it, suddenly it's something to be desired, to be missed, to work for.

All I've been asking is for you to make it clear to her that she can't just have you with no consequences. That you're willing to work on your side, but NOT without seeing the same thing from her. Until she sees that willingness from you to walk without reciprocation (and so far, I haven't seen any reciprocation, only anger and blame), SHE HAS NO REASON TO CARE. And it in no way has to be done in anger or spite - simply logic, caring, and self respect. "I need this from you at this stage and if you're not willing to do it we need to discuss what happens next."


----------



## jld

gridcom said:


> Anon, jld, LifeIsTooShort, EleGirl, LongWalk, ConanHub....since you seem to be on one side of this, let me ask you. In terms of boundaries right now, is there anything I should be doing? Should I be enforcing any rules, or creating any consequences ie "If you do X, then Y will happen?" I feel like my simple boundaries are enough, dont you?
> 
> Should I be more vigilant in being a detective, etc?


I would not. I would not put the accent on this sort of thing at all.

She felt disrespected and unloved for 13 years. Some silly boy from her work paid her some attention and flattered her neglected ego. She came right home and told you. She may think she has some sort of future with this kid but she doesn't. Her future is with the girls and you. You know that.

Patience and consistency, grid. You are clearing up your side of the street and focusing on being a better husband and father. Since you were controlling in the past, you need to be very careful with being perceived that way now. It could trigger her, and then you have to deal with a bunch of unnecessary emotion.

It is hard for a person who has goodness in them to not hear and respond with compassion to vulnerability in another human being. Has she seen your pain, grid? Has she seen your sorrow, your tears, at what has come about because of your neglect of her? I think that would move her. It would move me.

I don't think enough weight is given to the power of authenticity, of sacrificial love, of genuinely taking responsibility when you are the BH. There seems to be call for consequences! Vars! Accountability! I think it often shows more concern for self than for the other.

And isn't that what caused the problem in the first place?

If I were you, I would focus on becoming a better man, period. Keep reading your bible, those links, and seeking counsel from other wise sources. 

Make Jesus your model. He would not put a var in a wife's car. His wisdom and compassion alone would win her over. 

You want her heart, grid. A bunch of rules will not be able to force that. But the sincerity of your heart, and the subsequent behavior that springs forth from it, can.




I was upset with my husband recently. I did not talk to him for a few hours. He did not try to force me to talk, but was kind, patient, and present. He was ready to talk, and more importantly, to listen, when I was ready.

When I did start talking, and we made up, I asked him if he wanted to talk about what I had done wrong. He said if I were responsible for the marriage, we would talk about what I did wrong. But he said since he is responsible for the marriage, we would focus on what he did wrong.

I was moved by that. It made me feel so much respect and trust in him. And it made me examine my own behavior. Why had I gotten so upset? Why did I not talk about it right away? Why did I not act with the grace that he did afterwards?

Patience and kindness and setting an example of true humility and leadership are powerful. They make a deep impression that lasts much longer than a control technique. That is why Jesus is still so well known two thousand years after his death.


----------



## manfromlamancha

JLD, I understand what you say, but do you acknowledge the very basic fact that she has cheated on her husband for a year and that no matter what he did wrong, this was not the course of action she should have taken. She didn't come right out and tell the husband - she did this for a year and then told him. Him trying to nice her back is not the way to go as has been proven several times here.


----------



## turnera

Anon Pink said:


> In case your wife actually is checking up on this thread...
> Mrs Grid, Don't let the angry bunch put you off. I really think your marriage has a chance.


For the umpteenth time, I am not angry. At all. Well, maybe I'm upset with pollyannas who think a woman who's fallen out of love and has another prospect and has had no consequences will suddenly wake up and think oh wow, this jerk is suddenly all that.

But angry? Nope. I just know psychology better than most of the people here, I am a woman, and I know that people who are handed things don't appreciate them.

I WANT his marriage to succeed. But as we say a million times here, you have to be willing to lose your marriage, to save it. Meaning, she has to at least know on some basic level, that he will walk away if things don't improve. I haven't seen that yet. Maybe I missed it?


----------



## turnera

Anon Pink said:


> Pffft luckily she doesn't answer to you and truthfully those details are meaningless except as fuel to the fire of the Bitter Band of Brothers.


Actually, those details are ESSENTIAL if they are ever to have anything but a rugsweeping and cuckold of a husband who spends the rest of his life kissing her butt to keep her here, and her lapping it up. They BOTH should be accountable to each other. And that starts with honesty. He's being honest. Why doesn't she have to? Oh, right, because he was a neglectful husband. That wipes everything else out.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

34+ pages. Time for a summary, from 50K.

1. Wife cheats with co-worker. Admits to PA one time. Still in contact with him. Still works with him. Relationship has lasted at least a year.

2. Wife repeatedly tells Grid she does not want to be married to him. She shows no remorse.

3. Wife quits IC and refuses MC.

4. Wife plays "break-up" songs over the radio for Grid to hear.

5. Wife goes to a friends' wedding, and doesn't take her husband.

6. Wife placates Grid by going to movie or two.

7. Wife ignores boundaries that Grid has attempted to establish.


1. Grid blames himself for wife's affair.

2. Grid confront's OM with empty threats.

3. Grid exposes the affair to friends/family.

4. Grid spends many hours of his life attempting to "figure her out", or 'untangling the skein of fvckupedness', as Chumplady would say.

5. Grid can't afford to file for D.

6. Grid still sleeps in the same bed as his wife.

7. Grid claims he still loves his wife and wants to save his marriage.

8. Grid ignores advice here, and says he will "trust his gut".


Sound about right?


----------



## turnera

jld said:


> I would not. I would not put the accent on this sort of thing at all.


Wow. Not even 'If you have lunch with OM, I will consider you unwilling to work on this marriage and will see a lawyer?'

Not even that?


----------



## LongWalk

TAM CWI standard advice is to seek a timeline of the affair, for without knowing what one is forgiving, one cannot truly forgive. It is possible, however, to be secure and alpha enough to be uninterested in what went on. The only concern is that it is completely over and that the wayward will never stray again.

Sometimes reconciliation is complicated by one detail that emerges. On one SI thread a woman discovered that her husband had cheated on her for 6 years. The truth came out one year after the affair was over. The AP was a married woman whose husband had watched; in other words his wayward wife wasn't wayward at all. They were swingers. He approved. He was the barker, clown, public, ringmaster, trapeze artist and lion tamer all in one at the bi or tri monthly show.

The cheaters plan, all three of them, had been to invite the betrayed wife to play with them, but he husband never got the courage up to reveal what had been going on. The two couples had been friends. Their children were friends. She had never been entirely comfortable with them, she noted in retrospect.

This sad woman looked hard at herself. Perhaps she had not been meeting his needs, having been occupied with work and kids during that period of time. She was, in short, willing to take some blame for the affair. However, there was one detail that bothered her. The two couples had once taken a trip to Las Vegas. She went to bed early and the other three stayed up partying. She did not come out and say it directly but you understood that on this one childfree night in the city of sin, she lay in bed, hoping her husband was coming make the weekend memorable, but he never came. The couple had orchestrated a special performance opportunity for the husband.

WH admitted this and told her everything because he felt terrible about the affair and wanted to make it all up to his wife for the rest of their lives. The BW could not exact any consequences from the cheating couple because they did not care. Destroying another couple's marriage was nothing. That was perhaps even part of the pleasure. Her husband did not betray her as some masculine predator but as a “weakling” – her word – employed to entertain. He had even developed feelings for the OW but he was nothing but a supporting actor in their sex game.

To make it worse the families were going to be connected by the friendship of children and marriage. Something like a daughter's best friend's brother was soon going to marry the daughter of the cheaters. Exposure was like an act of throwing out a bomb to see what the fragments would do. The poor BW just sucked it up and threw herself on the grenade.

The cuckold and his wife were wealthy and gave generously to the church.

I don't mean for this to be a thread jack. However, the facts and details of an affair have the power to come back and wound even when there is a desire for reconciliation.

Does it matter if your wife slept with OM once or 25 times? 

It’s tricky.

My feeling is that you must not enter into a covert contract that you cannot live up to. Do not accept that the details of her infidelity are unimportant if she can get over your failings as a husband. This may mean that two years from now, if you go the Lifeistooshort, jld journey successfully, at some point your wife is going to want to be forthcoming about some more aspects of the affair because they bother her conscience. And once she opens her mouth she cannot know what detail will be most painful for you. Recognize that this hazard lies there. When her come to Jesus moments occur, do you want to be Jesus?

My advice is to just keep on as you have. When she gets back from the wedding she will have had time to think about what she going to do. You need to be an active listener. You did not know she was in love with OM for a year.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

From an objective point of view:

1) Grid is codependent. He needs FOO work with his IC to determine why he tolerates a relationship like this.

2.) Wife has zero respect for Grid. He can't even afford a lawyer. She wants out, but can't afford it. But Grid permits her to have relationships with OM,so she will. Maybe she'll land a rich fella who will rescue her from her lousy marriage.



When the finances are right, this marriage will likely end.


----------



## turnera

manfromlamancha said:


> JLD, I understand what you say, but do you acknowledge the very basic fact that she has cheated on her husband for a year and that no matter what he did wrong, this was not the course of action she should have taken. She didn't come right out and tell the husband - she did this for a year and then told him. Him trying to nice her back is not the way to go as has been proven several times here.


grid, question, and I apologize if this has been covered; I just want it all in one paragraph, to understand. 

She cheated on you for a year, and didn't tell you until the one time she allowed OM to have sex with her, is that right? And she told you ONLY because she was planning to leave you for him? Is that right? What happened after that? With the OM, I mean? What has SHE said about it? After telling you, did she run to him and say 'I'm FREE, baby! When do I move in?' and get rejected? What exactly happened?

Ok, one more question. Have you asked OM what happened?


----------



## jld

manfromlamancha said:


> JLD, I understand what you say, but do you acknowledge the very basic fact that she has cheated on her husband for a year and that no matter what he did wrong, this was not the course of action she should have taken. She didn't come right out and tell the husband - she did this for a year and then told him. Him trying to nice her back is not the way to go as has been proven several times here.


She was attracted to the man for a year and had sex with him once, after which she went home and told her husband, is how I understand the story.

Of course she should not have had sex with the man. Just like her husband should not have neglected her. No neglect, no outside sex. A model going forward.

Grid is paying the price for his neglect. His wife is going to pay for her affair. She will have the guilt of this affair on her conscience forever. 

And what is so sad is his having been a loving, responsible husband from the beginning could have prevented the whole thing.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Grid,

Do yourself a favor and read the following threads:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-through-divorce-separation/60683-what-do-i-dont-know.html

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/private-members-section/199218-lifescripts-journal.html

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-through-divorce-separation/63357-time-regroup-move.html


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> Wow. Not even 'If you have lunch with OM, I will consider you unwilling to work on this marriage and will see a lawyer?'
> 
> Not even that?


He can't afford a lawyer. Probably can't even afford a var. 

And that is good. He will have to go the old-fashioned way of working on his character and becoming the husband and father he should have been all along.

Reject these control tactics, grid. The power of character transformation is much greater than any control technique.

Look at Hillary Clinton. All her control techniques cannot force people to like her. Bernie Sanders just speaks his own authentic truth and people are flocking to him.


----------



## ButtPunch

ThreeStrikes said:


> From an objective point of view:
> 
> 1) Grid is codependent. He needs FOO work with his IC to determine why he tolerates a relationship like this.
> 
> 2.) Wife has zero respect for Grid. He can't even afford a lawyer. She wants out, but can't afford it. But Grid permits her to have relationships with OM,so she will. Maybe she'll land a rich fella who will rescue her from her lousy marriage.
> 
> 
> 
> When the finances are right, this marriage will likely end.


Ding Ding Ding

Three Strikes just hit a home run. 

Someone again tell me why a female BS is NEVER given this wait for him to come back advice?


----------



## turnera

jld said:


> He can't afford a lawyer. Probably can't even afford a var.
> 
> And that is good. He will have to go the old-fashioned way of working on his character and becoming the husband and father he should have been all along.
> 
> Reject these control tactics, grid. The power of character transformation is much greater than any control technique.
> 
> Look at Hillary Clinton. All her control techniques cannot force people to like her. Bernie Sanders just speaks his own authentic truth and people are flocking to him.


You deflected the question. He can get divorce papers online. For free. So he should be ok with her having lunch with OM if she wants because, hey, he can't go anywhere anyway?

btw, jld, for awhile after you went away for awhile, you came back and were giving fairly balanced advice. Now you're back to your 'the man has to be the rock and he WILL be the rock so everything will fall into place' routine. And, as before, I'll reply: YOU are not these other women. THEY are not 100% willing to let or want their man to be this rock that you have. You and your H are VERY different creatures than, well, every single other marriage I've ever seen on this forum, and what you expect would work in your marriage won't necessarily work with other relationships. So try to remember that when you give advice.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

jld said:


> He will have to go the old-fashioned way of working on his character and becoming the husband and father he should have been all along.


Hopefully he does work on his character. Because then he will realize that he married a sneaking, entitled, cheating, pathological liar of a woman. And divorce her.

Men with character don't stay in relationships with women like Grid's wife. 

He will wonder why he tolerated a relationship with a woman who behaves this way. And divorce her.

Once that happens, he will attract a woman with integrity. He can still be a fantastic partner to a new wife/girlfriend, and a wonderful father to his children.

Happens all the time. 


Unfortunately, Grid is stuck in "attachment" mode and can't let go. 

Codependence. Its a b!tch. 

He'll get there, though. As I stated in an earlier post: He's not suffering enough to make real changes.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> And what is so sad is his having been a loving, responsible husband from the beginning could have prevented the whole thing.


This is what I disagree with the most. I fundamentally oppose this observation.


----------



## tom67

ThreeStrikes said:


> Hopefully he does work on his character. Because then he will realize that he married a sneaking, entitled, cheating, pathological liar of a woman. And divorce her.
> 
> Men with character don't stay in relationships with women like Grid's wife.
> 
> He will wonder why he tolerated a relationship with a woman who behaves this way. And divorce her.
> 
> Once that happens, he will attract a woman with integrity. He can still be a fantastic partner to a new wife/girlfriend, and a wonderful father to his children.
> 
> Happens all the time.
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, Grid is stuck in "attachment" mode and can't let go.
> 
> Codependence. Its a b!tch.
> 
> He'll get there, though. As I stated in an earlier post: He's not suffering enough to make real changes.


Oh I remember the book... http://www.amazon.com/dp/0894864025...vptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_8u92733jbp_b


----------



## ThreeStrikes

I'm with you, BP.

The bright spot: if Grid takes jld's advice, Grid's suffering is going to increase significantly.

And I mean he's going to *suffer*.

I think that's what he needs to push through this.

I'm routing for you, Grid. Because I've been there/done that.


----------



## jld

You suggested telling her he would see a lawyer, turnera. I responded to that by saying he cannot afford it.

I give whatever advice I feel would work best. I would guess you do the same.

Three strikes, his wife's friends might say similarly hurtful things about grid. Does not help.

Grid, working on yourself is 100% under your control. If you are tempted to use control techniques, the place to start would be on yourself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tom67

Get the book I linked it starts at 79 cents used.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-list...p_used_olp_sr?ie=UTF8&condition=used&qid=&sr=


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> This is what I disagree with the most. I fundamentally oppose this observation.


Convicting, isn't it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ButtPunch

Grid

I went scorched earth when I discovered infidelity back in 2012. Guess what. 
I'm back happily married with a successful reconciliation. We are not just
an angry mob ... some of us have lived it and are only here to help others
like yourself.


----------



## GTdad

jld said:


> Convicting, isn't it?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Only if you believe the character and actions of one person wholly depend on the character and actions of another.

I reject that line of thinking as well; this complete abdication of personal responsibility as well as the consequences for crap behavior.


----------



## jld

GTdad said:


> Only if you believe the character and actions of one person wholly depend on the character and actions of another.
> 
> I reject that line of thinking as well; this complete abdication of personal responsibility as well as the consequences for crap behavior.


I think his actions had a great deal to do with her vulnerability.

I can see how that would be painful for a BH to see, though. All that pain that he suffered, that he could have prevented . . .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> Grid, working on yourself is 100% under your control. If you are tempted to use control techniques, the place to start would be on yourself.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Plan A is a control/manipulation tactic because he is refusing to accept the situation as it is. Wife does not love him anymore. So he is going to wait her out and try to nice her back. Codependent "controlling" behavior at it's finest.


----------



## turnera

jld said:


> You suggested telling her he would see a lawyer, turnera. I responded to that by saying he cannot afford it.


Semantics.



jld said:


> Grid, working on yourself is 100% under your control. If you are tempted to use control techniques, the place to start would be on yourself.


A boundary IS NOT A CONTROL TECHNIQUE.

It is a personal boundary. "I will not accept ABC in my life. If you need to do ABC, I'll set you free because it won't work in MY life."

And he's already been doing HIS stuff. 
What has SHE done? Oh, right. Be righteously angry.


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> Plan A is a control/manipulation tactic because he is refusing to accept the situation as it is. Wife does not love him anymore. So he is going to wait her out and try to nice her back. Codependent "controlling" behavior at it's finest.


I don't see any force or threats there. I don't see arrogance or self-righteousness or victim puking.

I see genuine self-reflection and trying to be the person he should have been all along.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

jld said:


> Convicting, isn't it?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not at all. 

Nobody here is saying he was a wonderful saint of a husband. We're saying that now that she HAS cheated, to blame HIM for her cheating is not only preposterous but HARMFUL to their marriage.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> I think his actions had a great deal to do with her vulnerability.
> 
> I can see how that would be painful for a BH to see, though. All that pain that he suffered, that he could have prevented . . .
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Another statement I fundamentally disagree with.....

If only you made a few more deposits in her love bank she wouldn't have cheated.....

She cheated cause her moral character is capable of cheating and blamed it on you just like every WS we see on TAM.


----------



## just got it 55

jld said:


> I think his actions had a great deal to do with her vulnerability.
> 
> I can see how that would be painful for a BH to see, though. All that pain that he suffered, that he could have prevented . . .
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If a wife/husband didn't smoke the wife/husband would not contract second hand lung cancer

See what I mean ?

55


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> I don't see any force or threats there. I don't see arrogance or self-righteousness or victim puking.
> 
> I see genuine self-reflection and trying to be the person he should have been all along.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I see a codependent grasping at anything to hold onto his dead marriage and receiving hope by posters saying he can fix himself and win her back.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> Convicting, isn't it?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Only if it were _entirely_ true in all cases. This is not a natural law. It is purely situational.

So it could be. Or it could have zero to do with her infidelity.

This comes back to the question: legitimate gripes or a rewriting of history?

It could be either.


----------



## jld

The way I see it, they are better off together. They have no money. Divorce and its aftermath are expensive. 

The only cost to grid is his pride, and that is a foolish luxury anyway.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lifeistooshort

ButtPunch said:


> Grid
> 
> I went scorched earth when I discovered infidelity back in 2012. Guess what.
> I'm back happily married with a successful reconciliation. We are not just
> an angry mob ... some of us have lived it and are only here to help others
> like yourself.


Did you treat your wife like crap prior to her affair?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lifeistooshort

ThreeStrikes said:


> Hopefully he does work on his character. Because then he will realize that he married a sneaking, entitled, cheating, pathological liar of a woman. And divorce her.
> 
> Men with character don't stay in relationships with women like Grid's wife.
> 
> He will wonder why he tolerated a relationship with a woman who behaves this way. And divorce her.
> 
> Once that happens, he will attract a woman with integrity. He can still be a fantastic partner to a new wife/girlfriend, and a wonderful father to his children.
> 
> Happens all the time.
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, Grid is stuck in "attachment" mode and can't let go.
> 
> Codependence. Its a b!tch.
> 
> He'll get there, though. As I stated in an earlier post: He's not suffering enough to make real changes.



New wife/gf will probably get treated a lot better. I bet he doesn't make snide remarks about this house looking terrible to a new wife.

And if he does he'll have problems with new wife too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## just got it 55

jld said:


> The way I see it, they are better off together. They have no money. Divorce and its aftermath are expensive.
> 
> The only cost to grid is his pride, and that is a foolish luxury anyway.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


JLD I really admire your humanity really

But can you separate pride from self respect your position seems to suggest not.

55


----------



## jld

just got it 55 said:


> JLD I really admire your humanity really
> 
> But can you separate pride from self respect your position seems to suggest not.
> 
> 55


With the way "self-respect" is often used here, I think it is too close to "foolish pride" for my liking.

And thank you for the compliment.


----------



## ButtPunch

lifeistooshort said:


> Did you treat your wife like crap prior to her affair?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Absolutely not ... but if you asked her back then she would have said I did. I was mean and emotionally distant. Yada Yada Yada. "ILYBNILWY", "Drifted apart"

Don't get me wrong I wasn't perfect. But her problems were of her own creation but in her mind I was the source of all her pain but in reality it was FOO issues and a severe pain killer addiction that nearly destroyed her and there wasn't a single thing I could do about it but let her go.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

lifeistooshort said:


> New wife/gf will probably get treated a lot better. I bet he doesn't make snide remarks about this house looking terrible to a new wife.
> 
> And if he does he'll have problems with new wife too.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Of course he wouldn't have to make "snide" remarks. He wouldn't choose a partner who is a slob. (Or a cheater. Or a liar.) 

Or if he did, he would say he was not OK with slobs who can't clean up after themselves. And quickly end the relationship.

Is this so complicated? Boundaries, boundaries, boundaries.

"Honey, can you please pick-up after yourself?"

"OMG, you're such an A-hole! I'm emotionally vulnerable now. I'm gonna teach you a lesson!" Cue the affair.

:whip:

Grid, remember the chumplady article about the baby chimps and the 'mothers' made of barbwire? The infant chimps still bonded with and "loved" their barbwire mothers, despite being hurt by the physical contact.

Delve into your FOO issues. Discover why you 'love' someone who repeatedly hurts you. Fix this issue, and your life will be irrevocably changed for the better.


----------



## Anon Pink

farsidejunky said:


> Only if it were _entirely_ true in all cases. This is not a natural law. It is purely situational.
> 
> So it could be. Or it could have zero to do with her infidelity.
> 
> This comes back to the question: legitimate gripes or a rewriting of history?
> 
> It could be either.


But in this case it isn't rewriting history.

This is the only reason why I jumped into this thread. LifeIsTooShort is right that their marriage was in big trouble long before she ever met this OM. The OM was simply the catalyst.

I'm all for boundaries! You know this. Grid does have some boundaries in place. Boundaries are only so good as the ability to enforce them. If you can't enforce them they are worthless.

Practicability they cannot separate. While they remain in this state there are only a few boundaries Grid can enforce. He is wisely picking his battles. While they remain in this state, Grid can control himself and himself alone. He is wisely focusing on that which he can control.

How long can either of them stay in this no man's land? Until she blinks, by stepping out on him again, or until she softens; at which point the real accountability can begin. Grid looses nothing if he follows the course he has set for himself and gains everything if it works.


----------



## just got it 55

jld said:


> With the way "self-respect" is often used here, I think it is too close to "foolish pride" for my liking.
> 
> And thank you for the compliment.


Swallowing your pride ...........as is accepting being disrespect is fuel for building resentment.

In the long run this creates more of the same.

One can give in to pride without giving up their self respect .The difference is to recognize the difference between one and the other.



In your view is it the BS that needs to do this or just a male BS ?

I can accept parts of you approach but.......self respect which to me is very different than pride must never be compromised.

The moment you allow your self respect to diminished is the moment one begins to give up on ones self.

If a person commits adultery they have no self respect.

This is how I value self respect.

grid do you see the difference?

Before you accept all of Jld's advice (and I fully believe she has something of value to add here)

Be certain you fully understand the difference.

55


----------



## farsidejunky

Anon Pink said:


> But in this case it isn't rewriting history.
> 
> This is the only reason why I jumped into this thread. LifeIsTooShort is right that their marriage was in big trouble long before she ever met this OM. The OM was simply the catalyst.
> 
> I'm all for boundaries! You know this. Grid does have some boundaries in place. Boundaries are only so good as the ability to enforce them. If you can't enforce them they are worthless.
> 
> Practicability they cannot separate. While they remain in this state there are only a few boundaries Grid can enforce. He is wisely picking his battles. While they remain in this state, Grid can control himself and himself alone. He is wisely focusing on that which he can control.
> 
> How long can either of them stay in this no man's land? Until she blinks, by stepping out on him again, or until she softens; at which point the real accountability can begin. Grid looses nothing if he follows the course he has set for himself and gains everything if it works.


Mostly I agree with this, AP.

However, if Grid is a "nice guy", which I see as likely at this point, he will scrutinize himself relentlessly because he is not perfect, which is an impossible standard to achieve.

Do you see why I am cautious about jumping on either bandwagon?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Grid all I want is for you to respect yourself. If you choose to stay with your wife and work this out, I want that if that's what you want. Still, I do not want you to continue to excuse the affair and punish yourself because you weren't the perfect husband. Yes, your problems may have made her detach. Yes, you damaged the marriage. She chose to cheat. It's funny how people are saying no scorched earth, but an affair isn't equally scorched earth. Funny how, it is almost always "strong" for a man to say he caused the affair. If that's what you need to work this out go ahead. 

Just be careful, it'll come back when you least expect it and slap you in the face. Do yourself a favor, go look for threads where we have guys coming back 5, 10, 15 and 20 years later crying because they didn't leave. Something their wife recently did or something they discovered makes all the terrible things come back. 

Remember, you do not have to keep punishing yourself. Please, learn how to respect yourself.


----------



## lifeistooshort

ThreeStrikes said:


> Of course he wouldn't have to make "snide" remarks. He wouldn't choose a partner who is a slob. (Or a cheater. Or a liar.)
> 
> Or if he did, he would say he was not OK with slobs who can't clean up after themselves. And quickly end the relationship.
> 
> Is this so complicated? Boundaries, boundaries, boundaries.
> 
> "Honey, can you please pick-up after yourself?"
> 
> "OMG, you're such an A-hole! I'm emotionally vulnerable now. I'm gonna teach you a lesson!" Cue the affair.
> 
> :whip:
> 
> Grid, remember the chumplady article about the baby chimps and the 'mothers' made of barbwire? The infant chimps still bonded with and "loved" their barbwire mothers, despite being hurt by the physical contact.
> 
> Delve into your FOO issues. Discover why you 'love' someone who repeatedly hurts you. Fix this issue, and your life will be irrevocably changed for the better.



You're projecting. You do not know that's how it went down, you're assuming, like so many others, that cheaters have no legitimate gripes. Besides, the comment was an example. ....a subsequent woman in his life will undoubtedly be treated a lot better.

Many people are in fact capable of cheating if circumstances support it. Grid says he had a good sex life with her but what if he didn't? What if she deprived him sexually and he's meeting lots of bimbos on his music trips? How do you know he wouldn't succumb? Maybe he wouldn't but the temptation would be there. That's what happens when you don't nurture your marriage. 

I guess it's just easier to rip up the cheaters character.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## manfromlamancha

jld said:


> She was attracted to the man for a year and had sex with him once, after which she went home and told her husband, is how I understand the story.
> 
> Of course she should not have had sex with the man. Just like her husband should not have neglected her. No neglect, no outside sex. A model going forward.
> 
> Grid is paying the price for his neglect. His wife is going to pay for her affair. She will have the guilt of this affair on her conscience forever.
> 
> And what is so sad is his having been a loving, responsible husband from the beginning could have prevented the whole thing.


I find this pretty incredible. What you are saying, in effect, is that she was entitled to fvck another man because her husband was negligent!!!!! And had he been a better husband, then she might not have fvcked another man!!! Really ?!?!?!

*"Grid is paying the price for his neglect."* has got to be the quote of the decade for TAM!!!!

First of all, we dont know for sure that she hasnt been fvcking him all along - as I said she was older, in a managerial position and lusted after him - not the other way round. It is highly unlikely that this happened just the one time - more than likely she told him when she felt "safe" enough to do so - that is she is ready to leave - else she enjoyed her cake while eating it all along.

Second, her only comeuppance is the "guilt" she has to feel for fvcking a younger, hotter man. Again, incredible!!!

Gridcom, you would be a complete fool to listen to any of this advice - she is not the wife you thought she was. I would recommend that you get your head out of the sand and see her and this situation for what it is. She has now found that she enjoys younger strange and by your own admission, is looking for your replacement - at your expense too. Protect yourself in every way my friend before it is too late.


----------



## lifeistooshort

ButtPunch said:


> Absolutely not ... but if you asked her back then she would have said I did. I was mean and emotionally distant. Yada Yada Yada. "ILYBNILWY", "Drifted apart"
> 
> Don't get me wrong I wasn't perfect. But her problems were of her own creation but in her mind I was the source of all her pain but in reality it was FOO issues and a severe pain killer addiction that nearly destroyed her and there wasn't a single thing I could do about it but let her go.


The dynamics are different when you're basically a good spouse and your other half strays. I'm impressed grid has been so upfront about his own behavior. .... it would be far easier for him to cry victim and blow off her viewpoint. He'd certainly get lots of sympathy here and nobody would ask him anything about his behavior because according to the TAM masses once cheating happens nothing else matters.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## manfromlamancha

Like so many betrayed spouses, Grid is taking the blame for her infidelity. We, in general, at TAM know better and are giving him the standard (and accurate) advice that nothing justifies cheating.


Many are referring to her lustful cheating behaviour as her being "vulnerable" - this is almost as insulting as saying oh well, she made a mistake.

I cannot believe that there are those here who are trying to say this would not have happened if you had behaved better especially when Grid is at his most vulnerable right now.


And it is not just his pride that has been hurt - he has been betrayed in one of the worst ways possible (often likened to being worse than the loss of a loved one). She was told that she was a slob or something at keeping an untidy home and she relatiates with fvcking a younger hotter model of a man at her work (one who she is a superior to). This is pretty scummy behaviour.

Grid, if you cannot afford a divorce then do the 180 for now and cut yourself off from the wretch you have for a wife until such time as she is down on her knees, snot nosed and genuinely begging for your forgiveness and owning her vile behaviour.


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## LongWalk

ButtPunch said:


> This is what I disagree with the most. I fundamentally oppose this observation.


Cheating is a choice. Even when someone is drunk or high or in love, they know that every step, the flirting, the first inappropriate conversation, the resumption of that conversation the following day, the search for an opportunity to alone, the first kiss, the first tongue darting out, the first intercourse, the first lie, the first deleted text, etc., all of this happens because the cheaters actively choose to do it.

ButtPunch is right on here. 

And no one on TAM or SI tells the wife of a cheater to put up with it. They always tell them to get tough. He still with OW? File for divorce. Tell his parents. Whatever. Do not allow cake eating.

However, jld, wrong though she is about Grid's WW only having had intercourse with OM one time – if she was in love with OM for whole year, they almost certainly had sex months before she broke the news to him – has got one thing correct: if he can convey two essential truths (1) he loves her in spite of her transgression, she can have a second chance because she is special to him even if she gave away the special thing to someone else; and (2) that he has core self respect that make him an inherently worthy partner.

In one of TAM's best thread's the BH talks to his WW every night on the phone while she is in rehab. Every night she tells him she loves him. He does not say it back because he knows that she no longer feels whole or thinks properly. It took months for her to be able to say that she loved him and receive the same in reply. The fact that he spoke on the phone was implicit expression of love. But she was on probation. it took the pain of being without her children and husband to recover her self respect. That was also a decision.

She had to detox.

Nobody following that thread told that BH that he was weak because he could project his pain with humor an dignity. Ironically, that BH, who would disagree with jld if they met in an panel debate on infidelity, is closer to jld's ideal strong husband that most BH. 

Gridcom, if you can get ButtPunch to nod his head while keeping jld happy, then your chances of successful R will go way up.

Right now is your wife detoxing from her love for OM?

She believes that she can get you back in bed in anytime. Perhaps the idea that she does not have that power will come to her when you are strong enough inside. She has to feel your resolution.

1) You need to have enough money to divorce. Maybe that means examining the uncontested divorce forms that allow do it yourself divorces.

2) Quit any bad habits you have. Not to impress her but to strengthen yourself.

3) Be decisive about relationships. If you think someone is not a friend of your marriage, don't socialize or play nice with them. 

4) Go through your family finances with your wife to discuss how you are going to get a handle on the debt. Don't just impose your will on her. Ask her to come with cost saving measures.

5) Ask her what she wants to do at the Thanksgiving and Christmas. Where did you usually celebrate?


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## cbnero

Hold on! I'm not done blaming everyone else but me! ~Women

So according to some here, if wives are moody one week each month and snide and rude, husbands are therefore entitled to go sleep with other women and it's their wife's fault for being neglectful. She didn't make dinner? Screw other women. Doesn't show her husband respect? Screw other women. Laundry not done? Woo hoo!
Technically that's 25% of the time wives potentially neglect their husbands. But husbands should show their wives 0% neglect or they have it coming.

Looks like an unlimited supply of hall passes on TAM....

Grid can decide for himself. I've heard enough.


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## gridcom

Hi All-

I appreciate all of this. i really do. Last night things got a little haywire. I wasn't even going to post because I really truly don't know what end is up here. I am going to lay it out piece by piece.
So, I have Location Services on my wife's phone. When she is about to leave work, I'll check and see if she left yet, if she is on her way, if she is in a dark parking lot doing who knows what, if she is at a bar. She has been absolutely consistent for the last month, ever since I caught her in the parking lot with the OM. From work, to the car, car on the move, home 10 minutes later. Boom. Every time.

Yesterday, as you know, she got called in early and thus had to work with OM for an hour. She usually gets out of work around midnight, but sometimes the schedule can move her leave time back as late as 1am (on the very extreme end of it). Not unusual for her to have to work until 12:30 however, and I'd say the average is about 12:20.

So, at about 11:55 last night, I click on location services at and see "Location Not Available" This will happen sometimes when she is in a room in the building where there is no phone reception, but it doesn't last very long. The general area she works in has phone reception. 

"Location Not Available" - now it's 12:20. I start getting anxious. I text her. No response. 12:30. 12:40. I look at the scheduled events on the website of where she works. Looks like it was an early night for sure. She should have been out of there by midnight. 12:45. "Location Not Available" I call. No answer. Text her again. Call again. No answer. My heart is so heavy at this point, I'm in such a panic that I threw up on the side of my house. That's a first, and a new low. I should point out here that when you text someone, it'll say "delivered" underneath and I noticed that none of the texts were delivered. My assumption at this point is that she left the phone in a room with no reception and went out and had some fun.

Finally at 1:05, she calls me. I accuse her of seeing the other man. She denies. Tells me she was at work and she had to work late. I ask her how is it possible for "Location Not Available" and no response to my texts, calls. She says "I don't know" She sounds very frustrated and confused. She thinks I am being silly, actually. She assures me she hasn't seen him and that we'll talk when she gets home.

She pulls into the driveway. I notice the whole time on her ride home the location services still says "Location Not Available". She pulls in and I accuse her of turning the Location Services off (which she did once way back at the beginning). She looks at me like I am crazy and shows me her phone and says "Look, I never turned it off". I grab her phone and take it and walk off the property and rummage through it. There isnt a godd*amn thing on it related to any hanky panky. A few texts from one of her friends who is encouraging her to leave with memes about "from the end of one life starts a fresh one" or some nonsense like that. Otherwise, not a single thing. Texts. Clean. Phone calls. None. E-mails. Nothing. Trashed e-mails. Nothing. I did notice when looking at her texts that in the box where my texts were it said "Message Failed". I dismissed it at the time because I wasn't so much concerned with my own text thread, you know? This is worth noting.

Anyway, I give her the phone back. I am upset but calm. She is calm. She insists she didn't see the guy. I ask her to swear on the "health and future of your children" that she didn't see him. I know, silly. But, then again, she is a Christian who goes to a weekday prayer group. She does. She says "I swear on the health and future of my children I did not see him". I told her that she needs to move out. I gave her three weeks. She didn't say OK. She didn't say no. She didn't say much. I tell her to sleep on the couch.

She comes into the bedroom about 10 minutes later and says "Look, I just restarted my phone. I JUST got all of your texts" I dismiss her (politely). This morning when I went checked those texts I sent last night, they all said "delivered"

That is where today begins. She took the kids out to her mothers house today as they are off from school. Did she lie? Did she tell the truth? Honestly, to me it doesn't so much matter. What matters to me, what is sticking to my ribs so much this morning, is that I got so upset that I threw up in my yard. Even if it was an honest phone issue, I don't think it matters. I still got so emotionally heavy, my heart was so hurting, that I got ill to the point of throwing up. That. is not good.

I believe her. I called her just a little bit ago and told her that I believed her. She responded simply "Good."

I know some of you are going to kill me, but I'm here to be honest and we're all faceless anyway (to an extent) She's not a good liar, and if she lied last night she did a pretty good job. Didn't over react, was confused as to why I was bent of shape, her phone was completely clean. The shame of it is that if she is being truthful, I came off looking like a batsh*t crazy husband. And I made things worse. The good news is that i didnt "flip out". I was very calm and I kept it matter of fact and drama free (aside from puking on the side of the house)

Obviously, many MANY of you are going to say that she definitely saw him last night, that she obviously had to get cagey with covering her tracks and making it look innocent and clean.


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## GusPolinski

Sounds like she put her phone in airplane mode. This would allow her to turn off location services without actually turning off location services. Also explains the delay in getting texts.

Have you run recovery software against her phone yet? It's not hard to delete call records, texts, browser history, etc.


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## ButtPunch

Sounds just like an ordinary night on the "Pain Train" to me. 

Did your wife loose any sleep over you being so upset. I'm betting she didn't.


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## just got it 55

If you are being cynical she could have placed the phone in a spot where she knows there is no reception.

I get message failed allot at work.

This is how our mind works and where it goes when trust is gone. Your going to need to find a way to a.) deal with it and b.) help her understand this.

55


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## manfromlamancha

Look Grid, I am going to give you the best advice I can give - and it really depends on you first and her second.

I actually believe that she did not see the POSOM last night, based on what you have said (although it seems that she still hasn't adequately explained where she was all the time, since you determined that she should have been out a lot earlier).

I also believe that you really, really love her and that is why you are having these anxiety attacks etc. That in itself, is not a bad thing.

What I initially had a problem with was you blaming yourself completely for her cheating and then that being supported by some of the posters here who should know better having been here for some time.

So here is my advice and I think LongWalk summed it up best:

If you think there is a glimmer of hope that she


is sorry for what she has done (really and truly);


thinks that she still loves you and would like to try again;


is prepared to separate her cheating from what was wrong with you and your marriage;


then I think you need to do what LongWalk said - be strong in a way that shows her through actions and not just words your strength, and she in return does the heavy lifting in allowing you your periods of triggering, while working hard (actions not just words) to make sure that you know you are appreciated and loved.

Her not letting you come to the wedding with her does not support the above points. She is believing her own justifications and has not shown remorse for the cheating and disrespectful, lying behaviour. That is your first problem.

Your second problem is that she does not believe that you will change and that it might be too late anyway.

Your actions will win her back if they are genuine but she still needs to do her bit - and that is the tricky part.

I wish you well and hope that she really sees the light even if the two of you end up divorced.


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## gridcom

GusPolinski said:


> Sounds like she put her phone in airplane mode. This would allow her to turn off location services without actually turning off location services. Also explains the delay in getting texts.
> 
> Have you run recovery software against her phone yet? It's not hard to delete call records, texts, browser history, etc.


Recovery software? What can it do?
I need to know the truth here. This is unhealthy, either way. Unhealthy if she is lying to me, which I have to say is incredibly hard to wrap my head around
And unhealthy if she is telling the truth and I am acting like she is lying, which (if she IS being truthful) make me out of line


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## GusPolinski

Grid, the next time you get access to your wife's phone (it's an iPhone, right?), install an app called "System Status Lite". You can use it to see the last time the phone was restarted.


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## GusPolinski

gridcom said:


> Recovery software? What can it do?
> 
> I need to know the truth here. This is unhealthy, either way. Unhealthy if she is lying to me, which I have to say is incredibly hard to wrap my head around
> 
> And unhealthy if she is telling the truth and I am acting like she is lying, which (if she IS being truthful) make me out of line



Absolutely correct. You need the truth and, while you WANT to trust her, you can't. It's the worst feeling in the world.

An app like Wondershare Dr. Fone or iPhone Backup Extractor will allow you to export and view just about everything from her phone, including deleted texts, call records, pics, etc.

There are Windows and Mac versions of both apps.


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## ButtPunch

I wish I could claim credit for this masterpiece but I can't. It belongs to very wise member from another website. It should be etched in the minds of every man and woman who has been the victim on infidelity.

Just Let Them Go

The end result?

The end result is to respect yourself in the end,
let go of the people that don't value you or respect you.

That is the end result.

The quickest way to get a cheating spouse back is to let them go with a smile on your face wishing them the best in life and hoping that everything works out in their relationship with their affair partner.

Seriously, the quickest way to get them back.

Nothing else works better or quicker.

Let them go.

Agree with them and their feelings,
"you should be with the OM, I hope he makes you happy, good bye"

Wouldn't that be true love?

If you really loved your spouse,
and wanted them to have what they really want in life which is the other person they're in love with,
wouldn't letting them go be the approach if you really love them?

Why focus on the affair or the drama associated with it?
Just let them go. Give them their freedom.

You can take a good hard look at yourself in the mirror everyday and improve yourself but do it for you, not for someone else, the changes will never stick when it's done for someone else, do it for your benefit and you will probably make those changes last much longer if not indefinitely - because it's for your benefit and you realize the importance and value in that benefit because YOU are involved.

I will never tell someone to change to entice a WAW back when she's been cheating on him. I don't care how bad a marriage, there is never an excuse for cheating. That is a personal decision that someone makes to cheat on their spouse. If a marriage is really bad, leave, get a divorce, speak up to your spouse and tell them flat out "this marriage sucks and if things don't change I'm going to leave you and find someone better" and if things don't improve, leave that person.

But cheating, no excuses.

Think about cheating.
A wayward spouse who cheats on their spouse goes behind their back, secretly, telling lies, feeling guilty, getting angry at their spouse for getting in the way of their fantasies but never owning up to their actions, never admitting what they're doing. If a person who cheats on their spouse felt justified in their actions, why hide and go behind their spouses backs when they start cheating, why lie, why make up excuses about late nights at work and going to a friends place and sleeping over because they drank too much and any other such nonsense?

Deep down, the cheating spouse knows there is something inherently wrong with their actions otherwise they wouldn't lie about their actions and hide what they're doing.

Fighting the affair? For what reason?
To compete with the OM or OW for your spouse?
What message does that communicate to your wayward spouse?
They have lots of value and you have none because now you have to compete with another person for their love? Competing with your wayward spouse's affair partner never works, it just prolongs an ugly drama filled process.

And for your last point,
The easiest way to show you will not tolerate cheating in your relationship is to let that person go. That is the easiest and most effective way to show this.

"Look wife/husband, I won't be in an open relationship with you, I won't give you X number of days, weeks, months to make your mind, if you really feel like you need to sit on the fence on this decision and can't decide between your affair partner and me well I will make the decision for you, you can be with them because I'm no longer an option. I love you and wish you a good life with them and hope it works out for you because it didn't work out for us. Now the best thing we can do for each other is to make this process as graceful and peaceful as possible for us and our children, I'll contact a lawyer/mediator and get started on the process of our legal separation/divorce."

You give them what they want.
You don't fight them on this issue.
You agree with their feelings,
they want to be with the other person, fine they should be with the other person, let them be with the other person.

You will never convince a person to change their feelings with your arguments and logic. You can not find one member on this website in a situation where they are dealing with infidelity where they got their spouse to change their mind about how they feel about their affair partner.

You can't say "don't love them, love me instead",
you can't say "look at me, I'm better in every way compared to your affair partner, pick me instead of them",
you can't say "you took marriage vows, you promised to love me"

I agree, you don't have to make it easy for your wayward spouse to have an affair, but when you let them go, "lovingly detach", you don't have to worry about making it easy for them. It's no longer your concern, they can have you or them but not both and not at the same time and since they've chosen to have an affair, they've made their choice, there is no profit in fighting that decision. Let them go and move on with your life, that is the quickest, easiest way to get them back.

You definitely don't support them financially and enable them, that would be weak, wussy, clingy, insecure behavior - something in you telling you that you need to support them financially while they're having an affair, hoping they'll realize how nice you are and come back to you.

Just let them go, have them move out or you move out and live a good life without them.


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## cbnero

Of course this is her behavior. Grid enabled it. He should have tossed all her clothes in the yard when he found out. Instead she made him feel guilty


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## gridcom

Also, didn't sleep last night. I fell asleep at 2:30 and was up at 5am. I prayed. And prayed. Eyes closed. Visualizing the words as I thought of them. Prayed for resolution. Prayed for clarity on what exactly happened last night. I think the prayers overnight gave me clarity as to what "more than likely" happened last night. Whether it was God or just me sorting it out and using prayer as a tactic, I woke up feeling that I'd over reacted. But, man, if it happens that way again, I'll feel the same way. TRUST IS GONE. POOF. GONE. How do I distance myself from this lack of trust? The lack of trust hurt me last night, but it's not at all my fault that I don't trust her. it's her fault completely.

So [email protected] complicated.


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> Also, didn't sleep last night. I fell asleep at 2:30 and was up at 5am. I prayed. And prayed. Eyes closed. Visualizing the words as I thought of them. Prayed for resolution. Prayed for clarity on what exactly happened last night. I think the prayers overnight gave me clarity as to what "more than likely" happened last night. Whether it was God or just me sorting it out and using prayer as a tactic, I woke up feeling that I'd over reacted. But, man, if it happens that way again, I'll feel the same way. TRUST IS GONE. POOF. GONE. How do I distance myself from this lack of trust? The lack of trust hurt me last night, but it's not at all my fault that I don't trust her. it's her fault completely.
> 
> So [email protected] complicated.


That is why for a successful reconciliation to occur your ws has to do her part or you got no chance. Please get and read the book Codependent No More

You are not going to be able to white knuckle your marriage back together.


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## ConanHub

jld said:


> I think his actions had a great deal to do with her vulnerability.
> 
> I can see how that would be painful for a BH to see, though. All that pain that he suffered, that he could have prevented . . .
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Your attitude works for you. Women are children and must be treated that way by their adult husbands.

Men make their wives cheat so need to treat them like idiot children who really aren't responsible for who is having sex with them.

This system might well work wonderfully for you but some of us like being married to adults.

I, and other men, require a woman to actually be grown up before we will marry them. A grown up takes responsibility for their actions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gridcom

She is free to go!!!!!!!!!!!!!

She is free to leave. She is free to take the kids or leave them with me, her choice. 

I am not leaving. Every time I start to think it's best that I leave, I QUICKLY and DECISIVELY am reminded that there are 10,000 valid reasons to stay. That I should absolutely not have to be the one to leave. I am not leaving.


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## weightlifter

Grid. Couple things. Odd for ME to say but take a couple days off here. I would say three days will give you perspective. Then come back say Fri unless something big happens.

Do check Gus's airplane mode thing. Gus=phone diety. If that pans out and it was just an oddity... You need to get more into an audit mode of checking rather than living the investigation. It will eat you up. We have some in R I am still advising privately and quietly. All are in audit mode, not live the investigation mode. They check between every two weeks and four times a year. Realistically you would be in the 3x in two weeks range atm but it lengthens out as time goes on.

Her having contact with him long term will kill you. If you insist on R, with her, start making plans to somehow get them apart. Plan it strategically and together but be firm they need zero contact somehow.

Yea. Im still in the D camp, but since you insist R is your road. This is the advice I give.


----------



## Chaparral

lifeistooshort said:


> The dynamics are different when you're basically a good spouse and your other half strays. I'm impressed grid has been so upfront about his own behavior. .... it would be far easier for him to cry victim and blow off her viewpoint. He'd certainly get lots of sympathy here and nobody would ask him anything about his behavior because according to the TAM masses once cheating happens nothing else matters.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How can you be impressed that he admits his faults? I would like to see someone list what they all are.

Over and over we see men come here and blame them selves only to learn later the are carrying the lions share of the relationship.

If we wanted to see him divorced we would be telling him to do exactly what you are suggesting.

Every wayward wife here lies, blames her husband's faults, trickle truths etc. We all know the affair is much worse than he's been told. The only reason she hasn't left is that she is short on coin. Has divorce details been discussed? He works from home, he's the main caregiver. She has to leave and pay child support.

Stillkindofhopeful didn't roll over. He left, we talked him out of that and he moved back in. She left, was going to have to share custody, still outed her, her previous ex was fighting to take her kids. She also gave up the divorce idea because her ap was a weenie living with his mom.

And just how disgusting is it for a married mother to bang her much younger coworker? Sexual harrasment for her employers to take care of?


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## ButtPunch

Grid

We are talking emotionally letting her go. Don't you dare leave your
house. If you are primary caregiver, it needs to stay that way.


----------



## LongWalk

She should not be free to take the kids. Your children need both their parents. Separate the custody issue from you marital relations.

If she moves out to a studio apartment and the kids sleep on air mattresses, so be it. They need their mom.

Just calm down. Your hyper-vigilance will not be attractive If you have real info on her cheating, you don't need to discuss it. You just file for divorce.


----------



## bfree

I haven't commented here before but if I might I'd like to make an observation now. To my mind the truth that you need to know is not so much whether she had contact with the OM again or not. The truth is that you need to do some serious introspection and figure out whether you can overcome her betrayal. Some people cannot, and that's okay. As much as I applaud remorseful waywards who atone for their transgressions I know in my heart I could forgive my wife for cheating but I could not continue to be with her. You are right to be suspicious of your wife. She has proven to be untrustworthy. But your reaction leaves me feeling that you might not be able to recover your trust for her even if she truly is remorseful, even if she is trustworthy going forward. It's not a weakness to not trust a betrayer. It just is was it is. Consider your true feelings and act accordingly.


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## gridcom

weightlifter said:


> Grid. Couple things. Odd for ME to say but take a couple days off here. I would say three days will give you perspective. Then come back say Fri unless something big happens.


I'm going to do just this.


----------



## happy as a clam

ThreeStrikes said:


> Unfortunately, Grid is stuck in "attachment" mode and can't let go.
> 
> *Codependence. Its a b!tch.*


:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

grid, do yourself a favor and check out Codependence for Dummies  on Amazon. I'm not usually a big fan of the "Dummies" series, but THIS book is a gem -- it is the most comprehensive, up to date, sweeping exploration of this hideous pseudo-personality disorder that cripples at least one-third of most modern, Westernized individuals. 

The book is written by Darlene Lancer, MFT. She has impeccable credentials and has participated in some serious research studies as well as written awesome articles in numerous publications.

Originally, "codependence" was focused more on being married (or in a relationship with) an addict -- drug addict, alcoholic, gambler, porn addict. We now know that there are FAR MORE "addictions" than the aforementioned -- addictions to being a pleaser, a martyr, a saint, a shopper, a sex addict, a narcissist, an abuser, etc.... *but it all boils down to the "fixer".* Codependence is all about "fixing everything for everyone else (while neglecting your own needs), and it's about carrying the SHAME and GUILT forward from your FOO (family of origin) secretly, in private, hiding everything, fixing it all -- and goes *WAY* beyond substance abuse.

"Codependent No More" by Melodie Beatty is the "hallmark" book on codependence. Unfortunately, it was written in the old AA/Al-Anon style before professionals really understood how deeply ENTRENCHED codependence is from our FOOs -- and how codependence thrives despite the lack of "substance abuse" and addiction. IOW, we are ALL products of some dysfunction in our upbringings.

Darlene Lancer is on the cutting edge of how deeply rooted this severe dysfunction is AND she gives you practical solutions to break free of your codependency jail-hell.


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## ButtPunch

OP

See a dr. for the anxiety. I had to. The sleepless nights will continue for a while.

Sad watching him writhe in pain trying not too accept his new reality. Lots of us here 
have been there. No one knows if he and his old lady will make it but what I do know 
is he can't will it to happen.


----------



## ConanHub

gridcom said:


> Hi All-
> 
> I appreciate all of this. i really do. Last night things got a little haywire. I wasn't even going to post because I really truly don't know what end is up here. I am going to lay it out piece by piece.
> So, I have Location Services on my wife's phone. When she is about to leave work, I'll check and see if she left yet, if she is on her way, if she is in a dark parking lot doing who knows what, if she is at a bar. She has been absolutely consistent for the last month, ever since I caught her in the parking lot with the OM. From work, to the car, car on the move, home 10 minutes later. Boom. Every time.
> 
> Yesterday, as you know, she got called in early and thus had to work with OM for an hour. She usually gets out of work around midnight, but sometimes the schedule can move her leave time back as late as 1am (on the very extreme end of it). Not unusual for her to have to work until 12:30 however, and I'd say the average is about 12:20.
> 
> So, at about 11:55 last night, I click on location services at and see "Location Not Available" This will happen sometimes when she is in a room in the building where there is no phone reception, but it doesn't last very long. The general area she works in has phone reception.
> 
> "Location Not Available" - now it's 12:20. I start getting anxious. I text her. No response. 12:30. 12:40. I look at the scheduled events on the website of where she works. Looks like it was an early night for sure. She should have been out of there by midnight. 12:45. "Location Not Available" I call. No answer. Text her again. Call again. No answer. My heart is so heavy at this point, I'm in such a panic that I threw up on the side of my house. That's a first, and a new low. I should point out here that when you text someone, it'll say "delivered" underneath and I noticed that none of the texts were delivered. My assumption at this point is that she left the phone in a room with no reception and went out and had some fun.
> 
> Finally at 1:05, she calls me. I accuse her of seeing the other man. She denies. Tells me she was at work and she had to work late. I ask her how is it possible for "Location Not Available" and no response to my texts, calls. She says "I don't know" She sounds very frustrated and confused. She thinks I am being silly, actually. She assures me she hasn't seen him and that we'll talk when she gets home.
> 
> She pulls into the driveway. I notice the whole time on her ride home the location services still says "Location Not Available". She pulls in and I accuse her of turning the Location Services off (which she did once way back at the beginning). She looks at me like I am crazy and shows me her phone and says "Look, I never turned it off". I grab her phone and take it and walk off the property and rummage through it. There isnt a godd*amn thing on it related to any hanky panky. A few texts from one of her friends who is encouraging her to leave with memes about "from the end of one life starts a fresh one" or some nonsense like that. Otherwise, not a single thing. Texts. Clean. Phone calls. None. E-mails. Nothing. Trashed e-mails. Nothing. I did notice when looking at her texts that in the box where my texts were it said "Message Failed". I dismissed it at the time because I wasn't so much concerned with my own text thread, you know? This is worth noting.
> 
> Anyway, I give her the phone back. I am upset but calm. She is calm. She insists she didn't see the guy. I ask her to swear on the "health and future of your children" that she didn't see him. I know, silly. But, then again, she is a Christian who goes to a weekday prayer group. She does. She says "I swear on the health and future of my children I did not see him". I told her that she needs to move out. I gave her three weeks. She didn't say OK. She didn't say no. She didn't say much. I tell her to sleep on the couch.
> 
> She comes into the bedroom about 10 minutes later and says "Look, I just restarted my phone. I JUST got all of your texts" I dismiss her (politely). This morning when I went checked those texts I sent last night, they all said "delivered"
> 
> That is where today begins. She took the kids out to her mothers house today as they are off from school. Did she lie? Did she tell the truth? Honestly, to me it doesn't so much matter. What matters to me, what is sticking to my ribs so much this morning, is that I got so upset that I threw up in my yard. Even if it was an honest phone issue, I don't think it matters. I still got so emotionally heavy, my heart was so hurting, that I got ill to the point of throwing up. That. is not good.
> 
> I believe her. I called her just a little bit ago and told her that I believed her. She responded simply "Good."
> 
> I know some of you are going to kill me, but I'm here to be honest and we're all faceless anyway (to an extent) She's not a good liar, and if she lied last night she did a pretty good job. Didn't over react, was confused as to why I was bent of shape, her phone was completely clean. The shame of it is that if she is being truthful, I came off looking like a batsh*t crazy husband. And I made things worse. The good news is that i didnt "flip out". I was very calm and I kept it matter of fact and drama free (aside from puking on the side of the house)
> 
> Obviously, many MANY of you are going to say that she definitely saw him last night, that she obviously had to get cagey with covering her tracks and making it look innocent and clean.


Listen grid. This is part of the problem with the "nice guy" aspect of plan A which is definitely what you are attempting, parts of it anyway. It subjects you to very acute and intense harm from a person that has already caused you acute and intense harm. I have personally see three men take their own lives while attempting to absorb damage from a Goddamned bltch in heat. 

If I were you, I would have a calm and sober talk with your WW about this.

She has to agree with you concerning her infidelity and recovering from it. She has to agree to everything that pertains to a successful reconciliation attempt.

Getting another job, NC with OM, full transparency, owning the damage she is inflicting on her family.

Dude, she needs to know you wretched on the side of your home because of how much damage she has done and you are done going down this path.

She needs to be told, without anger and calmly, that this is killing you, literally, and you want to watch your children grow up and to be their for them so this has got to stop now!

One way or the other.

She either gets on board with reconciliation, a process and a journey, or agrees to leave you in peace with an amicable divorce.

This really is not healthy and I have seen men who didn't take their own lives that were shells after they were done. Emotional and mental cripples that actually had to be nursed by wives that, after they stopped thinking with their crotches, horrified over what they had done to their husbands and families.

DO NOT GO THERE!!!

This is not worth your health and certainly not your life my friend.

Tell her it stops.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Try to relax, grid. I really do not think anything happened last night.

It might have to be over. Let's see what your wife says tonight, okay? She might understand your overreaction and be sympathetic. Or she might come to you and say this has all made her more sure about leaving.

Grid, expecting her to nurse you along is a risky strategy. You are putting your emotional care into her hands. I don't want to be harsh, but it makes you look like a huge baby.

Grid, try to focus on Jesus, okay? Think about how he calmed the storm when his disciples were fearful. You need some help to calm the storm inside of you. Pray for that help.


----------



## convert

Grid, you see, it is killing you that she is still working with OM. I mean it sounds like it is literally killing you.

You said you exposed to family and friends?

and it sounds like a you really want to save the marriage and stay her.
did you *expose at her work* HR department? 
normally this is not a good idea if are going to divorce but you don't want to, so exposing at work may help because every time she goes to work a little piece of you is being killed.

although she may not like it, I would rather see you not die a piece at a time.

*and It does sound like the phone was put on air plane mode*.
take her phone and try it on air plane mode.


oh and don't forget to wash the side of the house off--- before it dries


----------



## happy as a clam

jld said:


> Try to relax, grid. I really do not think anything happened last night.


jld, once again I think you are seeing this through a WHOLE DIFFERENT LENS than "most folks"...

Dug must be a saint... 

I applaud your passion, your commitment, your unwavering desire to help folks see the world as YOU see it... from your "oyster shell"... (how about "CLAM shell" )

But the reality is, most people are NOT married to incredibly grounded Alpha males like Dug. Men who can grasp, harness, INTERNALIZE their wife's pain, disconnect, "checking out"... And then channel that energy back in a way that SUSTAINS their relationship. Dug is rare! You should be grateful, as I know you already are. Dug "grounds" you, keeps you in check, reels you in. In the end, you feel love, cherished, VALIDATED.

Not so much with the "average" couple with lesser communication skills.

YOU HAVE A *UNIQUE* MARRIAGE.

The rest of the population (me included) are just "regular folk".

Your suggestions really are pie-in-the-sky, based on two people coming together, the universe opening, stars colliding, and you both just "get each other".

The rest of us our fighting for our lives, for an understanding, for our very SOULS.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

. We love our gender wars here and that's why the thread is turning acerbic. Look you need to decide if you are going to take the lead or if you are going to let her take the lead. Right now you are bouncing between Plan A, the 180, winning her back and all you are doing is confusing yourself. Yes, everything can be modified, but as they say "too many cooks." I'm not saying it is easy, but that is why I was pointing out the difference between choice and consequences. You are all over the place so, she doesn't care or need to care. IMO, you know why you came back after saying you were going to take a break? You are utterly confused and need help.

Dude this is a terrible time for you and TAM isn't going to help UNTIL, you decide what you are going to do.


----------



## jld

happy as a clam said:


> jld, once again I think you are seeing this through a WHOLE DIFFERENT LENS than "most folks"...
> 
> Dug must be a saint...
> 
> I applaud your passion, your commitment, your unwavering desire to help folks see the world as YOU see it... from your "oyster shell"... (how about "CLAM shell" )
> 
> But the reality is, most people are NOT married to incredibly grounded Alpha males like Dug. Men who can grasp, harness, INTERNALIZE their wife's pain, disconnect, "checking out"... And then channel that energy back in a way that SUSTAINS their relationship. Dug is rare! You should be grateful, as I know you already are. Dug "grounds" you, keeps you in check, reels you in. In the end, you feel love, cherished, VALIDATED.
> 
> Not so much with the "average" couple with lesser communication skills.
> 
> YOU HAVE A *UNIQUE* MARRIAGE.
> 
> The rest of the population (me included) are just "regular folk".
> 
> Your suggestions really are pie-in-the-sky, based on two people coming together, the universe opening, stars colliding, and you both just "get each other".
> 
> The rest of us our fighting for our lives, for an understanding, for our very SOULS.


Wow, that was a beautiful post, happy. I really appreciate your sharing from your heart like that. 

Maybe I do expect too much from grid. He does seem interested in the path of empathy, though. He slips sometimes, but then he seems to later regain his focus.

At any rate, we are all just sharing our opinions here. He is free to receive or reject anything offered. It really is all just an offering, after all.


----------



## happy as a clam

phillybeffandswiss said:


> We love our gender wars here and *that's why the thread is turning acerbic.*
> 
> *Look you need to decide if you are going to take the lead or if you are going to let her take the lead.*
> 
> Dude this is a terrible time for you and TAM isn't going to help *UNTIL, you decide what you are going to do.*


Bravo!!!! :iagree:

I predicted (one or two hundred pages ago!!) that *Anon's "end of the year" DEADLINE was completely arbitrary.* Sure, pick a convenient deadline... like the end of the year, or Christmas, or Halloween, or Easter, or Thanksgiving, or Groundhog Day, or Valentine's Day, or Memorial Day, or Labor Day, or "Sweetest Day" (whatever the hell that is -- a chance to reward bosses for b*nging their secretaries???)

Anon has NO INTENTION of leaving... and he never did.

Sure, my "Duplex" idea was great (according to Anon)...

But he will never act on it. Just like he has NOT acted on 300+ pages of advice.

Bottom line... Anon and A2 *RESENT THE HELL OUT OF EACHOTHER... They BLAME EACHOTHER for their plight. (Whose GENES were responsible for this predicament* -- YES FOLKS!! THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM!!!!)

Rather than solving the problem like ADULTS... They continue to blame each other and "pretend" they have a viable marriage.

Anon and A2 BOTH *need to get laid.* With partners WHO ARE NOT EACH OTHER.

And after they each get laid, they need serious IC.


----------



## ConanHub

happy as a clam said:


> Bravo!!!! :iagree:
> 
> I predicted (one or two hundred pages ago!!) that *Anon's "end of the year" DEADLINE was completely arbitrary.* Sure, pick a convenient deadline... like the end of the year, or Christmas, or Halloween, or Easter, or Thanksgiving, or Groundhog Day, or Valentine's Day, or Memorial Day, or Labor Day, or "Sweetest Day" (whatever the hell that is -- a chance to reward bosses for b*nging their secretaries???)
> 
> Anon has NO INTENTION of leaving... and he never did.
> 
> Sure, my "Duplex" idea was great (according to Anon)...
> 
> But he will never act on it. Just like he has NOT acted on 300+ pages of advice.
> 
> Bottom line... Anon and A2 *RESENT THE HELL OUT OF EACHOTHER... They BLAME EACHOTHER for their plight. (Whose GENES were responsible for this predicament* -- YES FOLKS!! THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM!!!!)
> 
> Rather than solving the problem like ADULTS... They continue to blame each other and "pretend" they have a viable marriage.
> 
> Anon and A2 BOTH *need to get laid.* With partners WHO ARE NOT EACH OTHER.
> 
> And after they each get laid, they need serious IC.


Wrong thread?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happy as a clam

ConanHub said:


> Wrong thread?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ba ha ha!!!

Yes!!

That's the danger of "copy and paste" from a Word Document! Lol..

(Copying and pasting this to Anon's thread!!)

_*sorry for the thread jack folks!*_


----------



## turnera

gridcom said:


> She is free to go!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> She is free to leave. She is free to take the kids or leave them with me, her choice.
> 
> I am not leaving. Every time I start to think it's best that I leave, I QUICKLY and DECISIVELY am reminded that there are 10,000 valid reasons to stay. That I should absolutely not have to be the one to leave. I am not leaving.


grid, I don't think anyone is telling you to leave. It's not logical, nor possible financially. What we're telling you is to SHOW her - through actions, not words (look at what words got you last night) - that you are one 'event' away from walking away from her (and hopefully you are, hopefully if you DO catch them together again you are done) if she won't pull her own weight. None of us has told you to ignore what you've done wrong in the marriage; you NEED to address it. What you don't need is to accept blame for her YEAR-LONG affair. In any shape or form. She could have said something. She could have divorced you. Instead, she chose to do the one thing most harmful to you. And then blame YOU for it.

So what we're telling you is that for your marriage to succeed, she needs to see that you have boundaries. I asked earlier if you have communicated any boundaries to her. Like 'see him for lunch and we're done.' Do you? Have you? 

THAT is what she's waiting to see from you. Strength. Self respect. Acknowledgment of your neglect at the same time refusing to accept blame for HER choice to cheat and screw another man while married. And concrete boundaries over what it will take for you to be willing to stay married to her - first and foremost, no more interaction with OM. I don't know what she does for a living, but I've seen many a FORMER wayward go to their boss and say "I can't work around Joe any more; I need you to help me change shift/work/assignments."

She could be doing that for you. Is she?

She wants to see that you want her, are improving, but won't be her doormat. See, last night is what happens when you go doormat - you try to pretend you trust her and will let her make the choices as long as she doesn't leave you, while all along the instant you think she may be seeing him again, you see that you have no hold over her because...well, you're a doormat and she has no REASON to care if she hurts you again - you'll never leave. And then you blow up like you did and make YOU look bad, because you know you have no hold on her and you're terrified she'll just keep on cheating. After all, HE is the one she loves, right? And then of course this morning you're back to 'you're not going to leave me, right?' talk.

That's all I keep asking from you - to make it clear to her that while you love her and WANT to be married to her, you WON'T, if she doesn't provide an equal share of concern for the 'rules' of the marriage. That's all I want to see. As long as she knows you will walk, you have a chance at fixing the marriage.


----------



## turnera

jld said:


> Maybe I do expect too much from grid.


You still don't get it.

You don't expect too much from grid.

You expect too much from his WIFE.

You think she thinks like you. She doesn't.

You think grid is like dug. He isn't.

They don't have the kind of marriage you give advice for. Hell, none of us mortals do. That's why your advice is very often harmful.


----------



## manfromlamancha

happy as a clam said:


> jld, once again I think you are seeing this through a WHOLE DIFFERENT LENS than "most folks"...
> 
> Dug must be a saint...
> 
> I applaud your passion, your commitment, your unwavering desire to help folks see the world as YOU see it... from your "oyster shell"... (how about "CLAM shell" )
> 
> But the reality is, most people are NOT married to incredibly grounded Alpha males like Dug. Men who can grasp, harness, INTERNALIZE their wife's pain, disconnect, "checking out"... And then channel that energy back in a way that SUSTAINS their relationship. Dug is rare! You should be grateful, as I know you already are. Dug "grounds" you, keeps you in check, reels you in. In the end, you feel love, cherished, VALIDATED.
> 
> Not so much with the "average" couple with lesser communication skills.
> 
> YOU HAVE A *UNIQUE* MARRIAGE.
> 
> The rest of the population (me included) are just "regular folk".
> 
> Your suggestions really are pie-in-the-sky, based on two people coming together, the universe opening, stars colliding, and you both just "get each other".
> 
> The rest of us our fighting for our lives, for an understanding, for our very SOULS.



Very well put - this is exactly how I see it which is why I find it very hard to be upset with JLD even when I completely disagree with her advice (which is rare). I understand that she is coming from a point of wanting the best for everyone and fairness but sometimes (IMHO) doesn't see the reality of what is really going on because she believes in the best in everyone mostly.


----------



## Anon Pink

bfree said:


> I haven't commented here before but if I might I'd like to make an observation now. To my mind the truth that you need to know is not so much whether she had contact with the OM again or not. The truth is that you need to do some serious introspection and figure out whether you can overcome her betrayal. Some people cannot, and that's okay. As much as I applaud remorseful waywards who atone for their transgressions I know in my heart I could forgive my wife for cheating but I could not continue to be with her. You are right to be suspicious of your wife. She has proven to be untrustworthy. But your reaction leaves me feeling that you might not be able to recover your trust for her even if she truly is remorseful, even if she is trustworthy going forward. It's not a weakness to not trust a betrayer. It just is was it is. Consider your true feelings and act accordingly.



Excellent points BFree. 

Do you think this is something that takes time to discover in ourselves or is this something that we just know? And if it is something that takes time to discover in ourselves, what are some of the things we can ask ourselves to bring this discovery to light?


----------



## Chaparral

Was your sex life still great up until the day she told you she had sex with him one time?

How and when did your sex life change?


----------



## cbnero

I agree. Take a break from TAM and this whole situation for a bit. You must have a buddy that would come over or/invite you over to watch sports or a movie. Stay away from her - and alcohol. Don't engage her. 

I promise you this. It's a marathon not a sprint. Nothing will happen right away so just chill, focus on yourself and the kids. Come back and update later. Ask your pastor to meet or chat on phone with you daily for a bit. You need it and it will help. Trust me. You will be okay. Repeat that phrase to yourself throughout the day as often as needed and believe it. God has a plan for you so trust him to see you through this. Stay strong!


----------



## Chaparral

gridcom said:


> Such great feedback. I've been reading other testimonials these past few days. Reading Road Scholar now (page 24). Read the epic Thorburn one.
> 
> No change in direction = No change in the situation
> 
> I get it. I wish I had the balls to apply it.
> 
> A few things to add to the equation to all of this, so at least you get a more complete picture
> 
> 1- My stance with my wife has been either you move out of the house and follow through on your affair OR you end your affair and I get to see proof. She says she doesnt have to legally leave the house. I respond that "legally no, morally and ethically yes". I'm not leaving the marriage, I'm not leaving the house, I'm not leaving the kids, I'm not leaving the bed. I am not leaving. I am also not living with infidelity. She says she cannot afford to move out (neither of us could). She says if she could afford it, she would. I tell her that if it comes down to her sleeping on her mom's couch versus me leaving the house, she should sleep on her moms couch. I shouldnt have to live or adjust my life etc etc for the sh*t she is spraying all over the place
> 
> 2- My oldest daughter (10 years old) knows that my wife is into another guy. My wife thinks that it was calculated that she found out. That isnt true. My daughter isnt happy about it, simply insists that we work it out, doesnt want to hear about it anymore. She is angry with my wife and my wife is angry that she knows. My daughter heard my mother and my wife arguing and asked my wife what was up. My wife didnt say anything so my daughter asked me if we were getting a divorce. My wife and I did agree that when the time came, we would tell our oldest daughter the truth. So, when I was asked by my daughter if we were getting a divorce, the three of us sat down and we told our daughter we were having problems and trying to fix etc. I did tell her "mommies are supposed to love only daddies and vice versa, but right now your mommy has feelings for another man" I told my wife if you dont want your daughter to know your are a lowlife that slept with someone other than her father, DONT BE A LOWLIFE AND SLEEP WITH SOMEONE OTHER THAN HER FATHER and there wont be an issue.
> 
> 3- I'm convinced that my wife has only slept with this guy only once. I have GPS on her phone (she is aware) and I work from home and between her schedule, the GPS, the kids, etc it be extremely hard for it to have had happen a second time. That said, they have seen each other a few times after work for a few minutes. i caught her post work in a parking lot (via GPS) two nights in a row for just shy of 15 minutes on two succesive nights a few weeks back. This was after we had a huge fight because I have had my moments where I am just F**KING PI**ED OFF. Again, wrong approach. When is the remorse coming? Where is the sorrow? Etc. This road of dialogue often leads to a blow out and this one was particularly bad and it was followed by these two 15 minute parking lot hangs. Who knows what happens in the parking lot, but I am choosing to believe that in 15 minutes (more like 13), they are not tumbling into a car in a public parking lot and humping in the car in the little time they can see each other. My wife is more into the man than the sex, I really believe.
> 
> 4- I also have access to our phone records onlinr and in all the time they've been doing whatever it is they are doing, they've spoken on the phone a total of 9 minutes. I've checked for a second phone.
> 
> 5- She tells me it has nothing to do with another man, this was a long time coming YET I caught her Googling "Want to leave my husband for another man but husband controls everything" I confronted her with this and she just hummana hummana hummana.... She says that because she only slept with him once, and has since seen him in that parking lots twice, that because she isnt seeing him every day or sleeping with him anymore, it's no longer an affair. In fact, this position has been a lightning rod for me just blowing my stack. Imagine Ralph Kramden in the kitchen going "Not an affair? NOT AN AFFAIR?" and slapping his hand on the table. Just modernized  It's extremely silly
> 
> 6- The past 8 weeks (d-day July 7) have been the worst 8 weeks of my life. This has been the worst thing to ever happen to me. It's been traumatic. I wish I would have acted different from the beginning. I wish I had the discipline. My wife says the way I am acting now is why she no longer wants to be with me. I tell her this is the worst thing that ever happened to me, SHE'S THE ONE WHO DID IT TO ME, and she has to watch me go through the process in the same small house all day long (I work from home).
> 
> 7- She says she is sorry for the affair (but not really). Her position is that she wanted to end the marriage and she went about it the wrong way. But, now that it happened OH WELL, TOO LATE NOW. But, she still wants the marriage to end. Again, she isnt moving and I am not moving. She wants to go to a mediator. I tell her to come out of her affair fog and tell me she still wants to go (begging her back). I tell her we dont need to spend $2,000 to go to some lawyer for them to tell us that we cannot afford an additional $1500 a month in a sad little studio apt and gas/electric/heat/cable/etc. She would need to get a real full time job (I make 9X more than her) but I dont see any indication that she's trying real hard. Yes, it's idiotic. I tell her whether or not we reconcile or not, she's going to have to go get a new job, but she is in denial. She must think somehow money can get generated JUST BECAUSE. Everytime I ask her how she see's this playing out, she says "I dont know, lets go to a mediator...." UGH
> 
> 8- I do hate HATE HATE the idea of not seeing my kids every day. I work here and I get to see them grow up. Seeing them only half the time, having them only half the time, having them coming to a sad sack studio apt where it wont be THEIR rooms in THEIR house, they'll hate it.
> 
> 9- I do not think I was nearly as bad in my marriage as my wifes makes it out to be. I think she has created a new narrative to justify her behaviour in her own brain. She is very focused on the 2-3 times a year we would have a blow out about some stupid [email protected] like money or house work or where we should improve our home/property or what we should do with specific issues with our kids. Nothing unusual, I just dug in on my position and when it doesnt go my way, I act like a d*ick. That's it, that's my flaw. Otherwise, we got along fine, were close, had normal sex a normal amount of time, I am a great father, provider, etc etc.
> 
> Ok, so there is a stream of words. I'm not even going to spell check hahaha.
> 
> Do I do the 180 now? Start tonight? I think I can do it now. I have gotten all the "BUT YOUR WRONG!!!!!" out of my system. I've hit her over the head with a 2x4 of books, and websites, and testimonials, having her friends and family and church friends come down on her. I've bombed her with logic. It does nothing. She is in IC and I am in IC. She likes it but doesnt mean anything is changing in her approach. I like it but I have a way to go. Right now, I'm just frustrated. Can you tell?


Uuuummmmm, you need to reread your whole thread. You're trying the same tactics over and over. Like I said before you're beating her off with a stick. Your trying to force love with your logic.

You need to do a friendly, happy strict 180 and start with drawing from her. That DOESN'T mean divorce is certain. The thing is you're trying to build a house by tearing out the foundation. You're making her sick of you.

If she does offer sex though, pound it. They bonding chemicals will flow.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

gridcom said:


> Recovery software? What can it do?
> I need to know the truth here. This is unhealthy, either way. Unhealthy if she is lying to me, which I have to say is incredibly hard to wrap my head around
> And unhealthy if she is telling the truth and I am acting like she is lying, which (if she IS being truthful) make me out of line


If you want the truth, put a VAR in her car. This advice has been given to you multiple times. 

You seem to think you're above such things, but how is it different than spying on her location?

If you want to take a break from here, I highly recommend putting the VAR in her car while you're at it. Under her seat. Secure it with duct tape or velcro so it won't roll around. They're less than $100.

You will have your "truth" in a matter of days. 

The question is: Will knowing the truth change anything?


----------



## LongWalk

Clearly Gridcom needs to take a break from TAM for a day or two. Of course if he needs to vent, it is fine to come here. 

There is too much froth at the moment.

Gridcom is a very thoughtful OP. His introspective and self critical attitude created an different dynamic than the usual CWI thread, which is good for TAM... if TAM were an ice cream parlour what would the flavors be? Rocky Road, Double Divorce Sexless Sorbet, Revenge Affair Toffee Swirl, OM Nut Crunch.

In any case Gridcom's situation has not turned out to be very different. Despite his desire to hang on and follow a Taoist action through inaction path, it is now clear that he may not have the patience to play the hand that jld, Lifeistooshort, etc recommend. His best bet is to follow the you-can't-save-it-if-you-aren't-willing-to risk-losing-it school.


----------



## bfree

Anon Pink said:


> Excellent points BFree.
> 
> Do you think this is something that takes time to discover in ourselves or is this something that we just know? And if it is something that takes time to discover in ourselves, what are some of the things we can ask ourselves to bring this discovery to light?


I don't think there is a script or commonality involved. I think it's a unique journey personal to each individual. I can only speak for myself. As I struggled to overcome my substance abuse issues I went through a lot of counseling and introspection. It was a difficult climb and many times I felt as if I were sinking further and the light seemed so far away that I thought it might be unreachable. But I needed to be torn down before I could be rebuilt. One thing I discovered about myself was that I had a lot of pride and it was that pride that caused my initial downfall. As I quickly came to learn pride is selfish. Pride is all about yourself. It's ego driven and it stems from feelings of inadequacy and powerlessness. I won't get into excruciating detail but suffice to say that I found strength and self worth in God. Another quality I discovered in myself is a heightened sense of honor and integrity. This is a core personality trait and it is this that allows me to know that while forgiveness is possible rebuilding trust enough to continue a close relationship would not be possible. In my humble opinion the OP seems to be driven by co dependency and the root of co dependency is fear. If he can find a way to replace his uncertainty with confidence I believe he can move forward to a decision whether to reconcile or divorce, a decision based not in trepidation but in positivity and strength.


----------



## just got it 55

happy as a clam said:


> Ba ha ha!!!
> 
> Yes!!
> 
> That's the danger of "copy and paste" from a Word Document! Lol..
> 
> (Copying and pasting this to Anon's thread!!)
> 
> _*sorry for the thread jack folks!*_


Not a total waste happy you got a like from the esteemed LW :grin2:

55


----------



## just got it 55

ThreeStrikes said:


> If you want the truth, put a VAR in her car. This advice has been given to you multiple times.
> 
> You seem to think you're above such things, but how is it different than spying on her location?
> 
> If you want to take a break from here, I highly recommend putting the VAR in her car while you're at it. Under her seat. Secure it with duct tape or velcro so it won't roll around. They're less than $100.
> 
> You will have your "truth" in a matter of days.
> 
> The question is: Will knowing the truth change anything?



Brilliant question 3K

55


----------



## turnera

> No change in direction = No change in the situation
> 
> I get it. I wish I had the balls to apply it.


That is why YOU should be going to a therapist - by yourself. You are codependent and can't make a decision if it involves separating (even in the same house) from her. Get help.



> I have GPS on her phone *(she is aware)*


And you haven't yet figured out why her phone went dead last night?



> I do hate HATE HATE the idea of not seeing my kids every day.


One thing you haven't really discussed yet is the fact that you NEVER COULD guarantee your kids stayed with you their whole childhood. You NEVER could. Since the day you dreamed about them, you couldn't guarantee that. Once you let go of the myth that you were DESTINED to have your kids their whole childhood, you can start to look at this objectively. It only ever was an 'agreement' between two people. Did you screw up your side? Yes. But you STILL can't guarantee you'll get to see them every day. Once you mentally let go of that fantasy, maybe you can make logical decisions, instead of kneejerk ones.


----------



## LongWalk

bfree said:


> I don't think there is a script or commonality involved. I think it's a unique journey personal to each individual. I can only speak for myself. As I struggled to overcome my substance abuse issues I went through a lot of counseling and introspection. It was a difficult climb and many times I felt as if I were sinking further and the light seemed so far away that I thought it might be unreachable. But I needed to be torn down before I could be rebuilt. One thing I discovered about myself was that I had a lot of pride and it was that pride that caused my initial downfall. As I quickly came to learn pride is selfish. Pride is all about yourself. It's ego driven and it stems from feelings of inadequacy and powerlessness. I won't get into excruciating detail but suffice to say that I found strength and self worth in God. Another quality I discovered in myself is a heightened sense of honor and integrity. This is a core personality trait and it is this that allows me to know that while forgiveness is possible rebuilding trust enough to continue a close relationship would not be possible. In my humble opinion the OP seems to be driven by co dependency and the root of co dependency is fear. If he can find a way to replace his uncertainty with confidence I believe he can move forward to a decision whether to reconcile or divorce, a decision based not in trepidation but in positivity and strength.


This is an interesting statement because could be taken to support jld and lifeistooshort's strategy or the usual TAM line. At the end of the day, people often but not always recognize strength, not arrogance but self confidence based on fairness and self respect. Real self respect requires empathy.

Standing up to a cheater or bully often comes down to inner conviction. Something is not right and someone speaks up and says so quietly and calmly. Everyone listening knows that they just heard something profound on its merits. 

Gridcom got his wife to stop cheating or at least verbally comply with his demand. But she does not believe he can back it up. Road Scholar was shut out by his WW in false R for 6 months. He found her text to OM, wishing they were sharing a Grey Goose vodka. From that moment it wasn't just the words, she saw in his eyes that he was done. She had to fall in with him or the toast would have burnt.


----------



## lifeistooshort

LongWalk said:


> Clearly Gridcom needs to take a break from TAM for a day or two. Of course if he needs to vent, it is fine to come here.
> 
> There is too much froth at the moment.
> 
> Gridcom is a very thoughtful OP. His introspective and self critical attitude created an different dynamic than the usual CWI thread, which is good for TAM... if TAM were an ice cream parlour what would the flavors be? Rocky Road, Double Divorce Sexless Sorbet, Revenge Affair Toffee Swirl, OM Nut Crunch.
> 
> In any case Gridcom's situation has not turned out to be very different. Despite his desire to hang on and follow a Taoist action through inaction path, it is now clear that he may not have the patience to play the hand that jld, Lifeistooshort, etc recommend. His best bet is to follow the you-can't-save-it-if-you-aren't-willing-to risk-losing-it school.




This may well be true. It would take a lot of patience that he may not have and if that's how it is so be it. I happen to like grid based on his posts but a big theme I see emerging is that grid is very controlling. First, take a look at his wife's Google search: want to leave for another man BUT HUSBAND CONTROLS EVERYTHING. Not "want to leave so how to plan" or "divorce settlements in state X", but "HUSBAND CONTROLS EVERYTHING". That statement is telling, particularly when combined with his own admission that he acts like a d!ck when things don't go the way he wants them to. That indicates one who likes to control everything, which supports my earlier argument that his wife feels powerless. Whether we want to argue about whether that's really true that is how his wife feels, or she wouldn't be including that in a google search unless her intent was to plant it. If that were the case she'd have left the screen open.

Even now, while he is attempting to be patient and learn, it's still his nature to try to control. Thus the attempts to force love with negotiations. 

Because she stepped out we could argue that a certain amount of control is warranted here, but the controlling dynamic of the entire marriage makes that difficult to enforce. 

If I were neglecting my husband sexually and he eventually stepped out, then we tried to reconcile and I refused to have sex with him because he'd fvcked another woman I'd likely be told that while I have good reason to feel like that it's a risky path because they entire dynamic has been based around me denying him sexually. See that parallel? In this imagined scenario even though I now have good reason to cut him off it's not necessarily a productive path because it's already been an ongoing unhealthy dynamic.

I suppose he'll decide for himself what he can handle, and ultimately his wife might make the decision for him.

On a side note, being a numbers person I'm having trouble understanding how grid works 70 hours per week, wife works 30, he makes 9x more than her according to him and yet they've still got one foot in the gutter. My admittedly hasty math says that if she makes $8/hr, which is close to minimum wage, that comes out to over $12,000 per year. If he makes 9 times that much that puts him over $100K, which combined with hers puts them close to $120K per year. And yet they have one foot in the gutter? Something does not compute here.....I suppose if they live in San Francisco or somewhere like that it could happen. But I guess that's another topic.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thundarr

After two months (start of thread) I hope you better understand that you control of yourself and how you react but that's about it. You can't control the people around you. Your wife believes she can search for better options and she thinks you'll be waiting if things don't work out for her. You should know that plan b or c is not an appreciated role to play; It's not sexy and it's not attractive. You really don't want to be the guy your wife or anyone else believes they settled for.


----------



## cbnero

The "Husband controls everything" search is easy to understand. She wants to be free to sleep around and skirt her responsibilities and he is supposed to accept all blame and let her do what she wants. 

He is controlling her in that he is a roadblock to her freewheeling ways. Add in the manipulation that is occurring right now on both sides by both parties. Unintended but it's happening since their entire world is thrust into chaos. He is trying to keep the marriage together. She wants to destroy it. The more he pulls one direction towards him the further she runs away from him. So, yeah, controlling. Checking her phone, GPS tracking, forcing conversations, demanding honest answers. For shame! Lol

Consider the blame shifting, gas lighting, projecting, rewriting of history, etc... that he is experiencing from her right now. Of course she is complaining but that doesn't make her points valid. Right now I wouldn't take a single word from her mouth seriously. She is a lying nutjob. No offense meant grid. Just a fact currently.


----------



## turnera

lifeistooshort said:


> This may well be true. It would take a lot of patience that he may not have and if that's how it is so be it. I happen to like grid based on his posts but a big theme I see emerging is that grid is very controlling. First, take a look at his wife's Google search: want to leave for another man BUT HUSBAND CONTROLS EVERYTHING. Not "want to leave so how to plan" or "divorce settlements in state X", but "HUSBAND CONTROLS EVERYTHING". That statement is telling, particularly when combined with his own admission that he acts like a d!ck when things don't go the way he wants them to. That indicates one who likes to control everything, which supports my earlier argument that his wife feels powerless. Whether we want to argue about whether that's really true that is how his wife feels, or she wouldn't be including that in a google search unless her intent was to plant it. If that were the case she'd have left the screen open.
> 
> Even now, while he is attempting to be patient and learn, it's still his nature to try to control. Thus the attempts to force love with negotiations.
> 
> Because she stepped out we could argue that a certain amount of control is warranted here, but the controlling dynamic of the entire marriage makes that difficult to enforce.
> 
> If I were neglecting my husband sexually and he eventually stepped out, then we tried to reconcile and I refused to have sex with him because he'd fvcked another woman I'd likely be told that while I have good reason to feel like that it's a risky path because they entire dynamic has been based around me denying him sexually. See that parallel? In this imagined scenario even though I now have good reason to cut him off it's not necessarily a productive path because it's already been an ongoing unhealthy dynamic.
> 
> I suppose he'll decide for himself what he can handle, and ultimately his wife might make the decision for him.
> 
> On a side note, being a numbers person I'm having trouble understanding how grid works 70 hours per week, wife works 30, he makes 9x more than her according to him and yet they've still got one foot in the gutter. My admittedly hasty math says that if she makes $8/hr, which is close to minimum wage, that comes out to over $12,000 per year. If he makes 9 times that much that puts him over $100K, which combined with hers puts them close to $120K per year. And yet they have one foot in the gutter? Something does not compute here.....I suppose if they live in San Francisco or somewhere like that it could happen. But I guess that's another topic.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ridiculous.

All her search means is that SHE HAS NO MONEY. BTDT. 

It's not about control. It's about having money to leave.


----------



## Keepin-my-head-up

He controls everything as in he makes the income on which they survive.
Cars,cards,phones,etc... in his name.

That's how I read the sentence.


----------



## ConanHub

lifeistooshort said:


> This may well be true. It would take a lot of patience that he may not have and if that's how it is so be it. I happen to like grid based on his posts but a big theme I see emerging is that grid is very controlling. First, take a look at his wife's Google search: want to leave for another man BUT HUSBAND CONTROLS EVERYTHING. That statement is telling, particularly when combined with his own admission that he acts like a d!ck when things don't go the way he wants them to. That indicates one who likes to control everything, which supports my earlier argument that his wife feels powerless.
> 
> Even now, while he is attempting to be patient and learn, it's still his nature to try to control. Thus the attempts to force love with negotiations.
> 
> Because she stepped out we could argue that a certain amount of control is warranted here, but the controlling dynamic of the entire marriage makes that difficult to enforce.
> 
> I suppose he'll decide for himself what he can handle, and ultimately his wife might make the decision for him.
> 
> On a side note, being a numbers person I'm having trouble understanding how grid works 70 hpurs per week, wife works 30, he makes 9x more than her according to him and yet they've still got one foot in the gutter. But I guess that's another topic.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Your insight about his marriage issues could be accurate. Your speculation about his WW and her contributions to damage their marriage aren't even present.

None of that even matters because she has blown all of it up by fvcking her young co-worker.

She has delivered devastating damage to grid, no he didn't fvcking have it coming and it is sure as hell not a good lesson, and that damage hasn't been dealt with and she thinks it is funny to keep jabbing at his wound by not going NC at least with her AP.

The dude is wretching on the side of the Goddamned house!

This stupid woman better stop thinking her behavior is cute or smart in any way! Requesting the songs she does. She needs to seriously grow up and cut her shyt out!

If she is so bent on leaving then she needs to grow the hell up and actually get a damn job that can support her stupid butt and move on!

I know grid really wants to make this work but she doesn't need to cause any more harm to grid with her shytty behavior.

She could continue IC to get rid of whatever dependency issues she has with grid. It is obvious she has them unless she is playing a very sick game to try and teach him a lesson now and she wants to stay.

grid shouldn't take anymore damage from this. grid. You have to really consider how your children will do without you alive or if you have some kind of attack and not even be the same afterwards.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lifeistooshort

turnera said:


> Ridiculous.
> 
> All her search means is that SHE HAS NO MONEY. BTDT.
> 
> It's not about control. It's about having money to leave.


I'm sorry you find conflicting perspectives ridiculous. That's up to you. 

You have your view and I have mine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lifeistooshort

ConanHub said:


> Your insight about his marriage issues could be accurate. Your speculation about his WW and her contributions to damage their marriage aren't even present.
> 
> None of that even matters because she has blown all of it up by fvcking her young co-worker.
> 
> She has delivered devastating damage to grid, no he didn't fvcking have it coming and it is sure as hell not a good lesson, and that damage hasn't been dealt with and she thinks it is funny to keep jabbing at his wound by not going NC at least with her AP.
> 
> The dude is wretching on the side of the Goddamned house!
> 
> This stupid woman better stop thinking her behavior is cute or smart in any way! Requesting the songs she does. She needs to seriously grow up and cut her shyt out!
> 
> If she is so bent on leaving then she needs to grow the hell up and actually get a damn job that can support her stupid butt and move on!
> 
> I know grid really wants to make this work but she doesn't need to cause any more harm to grid with her shytty behavior.
> 
> She could continue IC to get rid of whatever dependency issues she has with grid. It is obvious she has them unless she is playing a very sick game to try and teach him a lesson now and she wants to stay.
> 
> grid shouldn't take anymore damage from this. grid. You have to really consider how your children will do without you alive or if you have some kind of attack and not even be the same afterwards.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



You're entitled to your view. Grid is here and his wife isn't so my advice is focused on him. 

Please point me to where I said he fvcking had it coming. Don't recall saying that. 

I'm stepping back from this thread, I don't care to argue with the scorched earth mob. I don't have a personal interest in his marriage, I only offer perspective based on my experiences. 

I'll check back after his break. Hopefully he'll be doing better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Saw this on another thread about a cheating wife - what a difference!:


> She is consistently saying and doing the things she is supposed to do (per all the references I had studied.) the way she has turned around with the kids is stunning. Their attitudes and behavior is almost completely back to pre-A levels.
> 
> She still takes complete responsibility for her actions without blaming me. She appears to be completely bought in to repairing herself and the M.
> 
> I am aware that it takes much longer to really know, which is what I am doing now. Allowing her to show me by actions.


----------



## ConanHub

lifeistooshort said:


> You're entitled to your view. Grid is here and his wife isn't so my advice is focused on him.
> 
> Please point me to where I said he fvcking had it coming. Don't recall saying that.
> 
> I'm stepping back from this thread, I don't care to argue with the scorched earth mob. I don't have a personal interest in his marriage, I only offer perspective based on my experiences.
> 
> I'll check back after his break. Hopefully he'll be doing better.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm far from scorched earth in my posts so I know you aren't including me. My viewpoint is based in the reality that grid is being seriously harmed despite all the good insight, and I do think you have had some good insight, the fact that she is doing considerable harm to him and his condition needs close consideration with advice he is receiving.

Lets make sure we are taking his health into consideration as we advise him to jump into the wood chipper.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happy as a clam

just got it 55 said:


> Not a total waste happy you got a like from the esteemed LW :grin2:
> 
> 55


Anytime I get a "like" from the very wise LW, I am humbled...

:smthumbup:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Coachme

Hi, it sounds like a time of shock. But I can’t help but see that your wife isn’t sure that she wants to leave you, despite how overwhelming her feelings are at this time.
I would recommend that you do not speak with family or friends about your marital situation and also not to expose the affair publicly. Unless you want to lose her. This will be hurtful to her and you, it will lose her respect for you and it will be unfair to your children. This is not a time for revenge but a time to fight for what is most important to you in your life. You can be a wonderful role model to your children and your wife, by working out exactly what it is you want and fight for it. 
Proximity is power. This means that whoever is around her the most will influence her the most. You need to put yourself into a position where you are around her the most and in a positive way. So a couple of things that I can suggest. You could come up with a mission relationship statement. For example, your role in life is to love your wife, hold her, protect her and share with her. You can share this with her anytime she tries to fight with you or talk about the other man. Just interrupt her, express your mission statement and let her continue. You could also write it on the fridge, put it on notes and hide them in her clothes, lunchbox etc.
My sense is that she wants you to step up, to show her in a big way what she means to you and how much you want her. What is it that she has always wanted? A holiday, a shopping trip, try a new restaurant, a new sport? Whatever comes to mind, book it now, organise a babysitter and surprise her. You have so much history, so many memories and a family together, you are all it will take to change this situation. You are more than enough, you only need to make a small change to change everything.


----------



## turnera

Coachme said:


> Hi, it sounds like a time of shock. But I can’t help but see that your wife isn’t sure that she wants to leave you, despite how overwhelming her feelings are at this time.
> I would recommend that you do not speak with family or friends about your marital situation and also not to expose the affair publicly. Unless you want to lose her. This will be hurtful to her and you, it will lose her respect for you and it will be unfair to your children. This is not a time for revenge but a time to fight for what is most important to you in your life. You can be a wonderful role model to your children and your wife, by working out exactly what it is you want and fight for it.
> Proximity is power. This means that whoever is around her the most will influence her the most. You need to put yourself into a position where you are around her the most and in a positive way. So a couple of things that I can suggest. You could come up with a mission relationship statement. For example, your role in life is to love your wife, hold her, protect her and share with her. You can share this with her anytime she tries to fight with you or talk about the other man. Just interrupt her, express your mission statement and let her continue. You could also write it on the fridge, put it on notes and hide them in her clothes, lunchbox etc.
> My sense is that she wants you to step up, to show her in a big way what she means to you and how much you want her. What is it that she has always wanted? A holiday, a shopping trip, try a new restaurant, a new sport? Whatever comes to mind, book it now, organise a babysitter and surprise her. You have so much history, so many memories and a family together, you are all it will take to change this situation. You are more than enough, you only need to make a small change to change everything.


Says the newbie who has never experienced real life, or is a cheater him/herself.


----------



## ConanHub

Ugh....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## gridcom

A lot has actually happened today. I'm going to keep it to myself for now and I'll be back after the weekend to give an update. I just wanted to come here regarding the end of Kolors thread. It really had an impact on me. I just finished reading it. 

I'm sure there are hundreds of examples here on TAM, but this one was linked here by LongWalk I believe. A lot of you posted there. Here is a guy who's wife is absolutely convinced they need to be apart. And he fights it and fights it and fights it. And you can feel his heart bleeding as he tries so hard to keep it together and figure out the riddle that is his wife

And then, suddenly, he gives up. He wakes up one day (there was actually a 2 week break in his posting) and just decides to "give her what she wants" And when that happened, I thought "He's not serious, is he? After all that?" And he then goes on and eventually falls in love with another woman. He gets the divorce and marries the new woman. And his ex-wife just becomes absolutely unglued.  

Here I am rooting for him the whole time. It took me a week to read that whole thing. And in the end, tonight, the last 10 pages, I felt really really sorry for his wife. He ends up happy. He posts once a month for 6 months and life just gets sweeter and sweeter for him and his wife just dies on the vine. 

I was really hoping that their marriage would make it through even though I knew the ending before I read a page of it.

I feel like this is a possible outcome to my wife. Not that I'd end up as happy as Kolors, but that my wife will become unglued. She's not looking at this from "50,000 feet in the air". 

As hard as Kolors tried, I honestly resent him when he posts about the pain his wife is going through in the end and how happy he is. And his attitude of "she got what she wanted". I'm trying to understand why it bothers me so much

Anyway, I'll see you all on Monday. I am actually having to go to a music festival this weekend while my wife goes to this wedding. The wedding, oddly enough, is like 30 miles from the festival. Both locations are like 100+ miles from where we live.


----------



## LongWalk

My reaction to Kolors' thread was the same. However, it is critical to recognize that Kolors did not cheat. His wife insisted that he acknowledge that the separation meant dating others was okay. She took the initiative to declare that monogamy was over. I think it was a moral and correct thing for her to do.

I, too, felt sorry for her. She wasn't a bad person. His account of their falling in love was banal and beautiful all at once. He was the alpha restaurant manager who could get all the staff together to laugh and drink. He was charismatic and moreover a nice guy in both the good and bad sense of the term.

If his subsequent business ventures had been strikes and spare, she might have more content. But they did not have the money she wanted. I don't think her discontent was due to greed or distorted materialism. She just felt insecure.

Here is a passage about the different motivations for cheating from peer reviewed academic research: 



> "Girls who are more attractive aren't necessarily going to be unfaithful – they're probably just going to get a higher-quality mate in the first place. Men and women are looking for different things in relationships and so we would expect men and women to use their attractiveness in different ways; men to get sexual variety, and women to get the best partner possible and a good dad for their kids."
> 
> The Czech research does support the idea that men and women have affairs for different reasons. Havlicek and his team found that whether or not a man was satisfied and happy in his main relationship had no effect on the likelihood that he would stray. Men usually have affairs because they want sex and a greater number of sexual partners, not because they are fed up with their wives, said Havlicek.
> 
> *Women, on the other hand, were much more likely to stray if they were dissatisfied with some aspect of their relationship. Havlicek believes women have affairs to find a new partner.*
> 
> "It might be best to stay in your relationship because, in some cases, it's better to have someone who's not perfect than to be alone – particularly when you have children," he says. "But in the meantime you can look around for some other options. Many of the women we interviewed said that's just what they were doing."
> 
> Haselton believes the issue of infidelity will increasingly be about women more than men. "It could be due to the increase in the anonymity of our social environment, meaning that it's harder to get caught," she said. "Our world has become increasingly anonymous as more of us live in large cities full of strangers. If a woman's behaviour can be better cloaked in secrecy, then I think you'll see more unfaithful behaviour."


Kolors' wife may or may not have cheated before she kicked him out. I suspect she did. At the very least he knew whom she was head towards.

Once Kolors wife discovered that her decision to boot him and interview H2 requirements was a mistake, she had the misfortune to have been replaced by a better woman. She failed to see that timing is everything. For if she had reversed her decision early enough and rediscovered her desire for him, she could have given them a shot at saving their marriage.

Too often TAM concentrates on the moral consequences without paying attention to what is going on. For Gridcom to get sentimental about Kolors wife, and I feel sorry for her, too, is really good. He should recognize that he needs to follow the path Kolors walked. He needs to hold his hand out to his wife so that she can join him if she so chooses. 

Mrs Gridcom has a lousy job. The pay is low and the co-workers are probably people getting into trouble more than getting out of it. She needs to quit that job because it is not good for Gridcom's peace of mind. She is undermining his ability to think. How is Gridcom going to function with all his dysfunctional artistic clients who need him to keep them from starvation.

On the other side, Gridcom has more or less admitted that he is emotionally there for his clients at the expense of his wife. She rightly resents this. Moreover, for Gridcom to be better at his job, he needs to be firmer with boundaries.

Most of us learn from hard experience when to say no in work and our personal lives. That why wisdom comes at a price. 

Being a good MC therapist must be amazing. Imagine being able to reach people and change behavior with just hour a week sessions? Without family it must be even harder to save a marriage. No wonder Gridcom is going to church. He looking for all means to rescue his marriage.

To his wife's credit, even if she is still cheating, she has at least gotten the problem out in the open and admitted that the cheating has to stop.

Gridcom,

Do you know any of the wedding party?


----------



## ThreeStrikes

turnera said:


> One thing you haven't really discussed yet is the fact that you NEVER COULD guarantee your kids stayed with you their whole childhood. You NEVER could. Since the day you dreamed about them, you couldn't guarantee that. Once you let go of the myth that you were DESTINED to have your kids their whole childhood, you can start to look at this objectively. It only ever was an 'agreement' between two people. Did you screw up your side? Yes. But you STILL can't guarantee you'll get to see them every day. Once you mentally let go of that fantasy, maybe you can make logical decisions, instead of kneejerk ones.


This is good stuff, T.

"Children can only grow
from something you love
to something you lose"

-Into the Woods

This happens sooner than most of us would like.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

gridcom said:


> As hard as Kolors tried, I honestly resent him when he posts about the pain his wife is going through in the end and how happy he is. And his attitude of "she got what she wanted". I'm trying to understand why it bothers me so much


Delve into your FOO issues. I bet you find the source of this resentment.

Do you consider yourself a "rescuer", or knight in shining armor? Most codependent types are.


----------



## farsidejunky

Grid, Kolors thread was my first thread too. Infidelity was not part of my equation, but addictions, neglect and passive-aggressive nice-guy stuff was. 

Like you, I was convinced my marriage was heading the exact same direction. Yet, it didn't...for a reason.

His thread is tragic. But it is also an abject lesson in taking care of yourself first.

Grid, you cannot save your wife. All you can do is be a better you, which will provide the conditions for her to save herself. But if...and ONLY if...she chooses to.

Until then, improve yourself, and set a hard deadline so that if things do not significantly improve, you begin separation and divorce proceedings. Then have the discipline to follow through. 

I set my deadline with my wife for eight months, without telling her. At the fifth month, I was convinced we were done. Month seven she really turned a corner. We are still together now and are very happy most of the time. But we each have our issues to deal with. 

However, in this process, I stopped trying to change her, improved myself, enforced boundaries, clearly communicated needs and desires, and then gave her the space to act upon these things. Turns out she didn't want to lose the marriage either.

Let the guilt of neglect motivate you. But only to improve you. She will either come around or she wont. Either way you will be okay.


----------



## Chaparral

Gridcom is taking the blame because thats something he thinks he can fix. Hs wife turned cougar then intentionally and with malice rubbed her sexcapade in his face. The only thing that stands out in this thread is the level of her viciousness.


----------



## Thundarr

Chaparral said:


> Gridcom is taking the blame because thats something he thinks he can fix.


This is common a trap and especially for fixers by nature. The reality of not having control is scary so it's a lot easier to focus on fixing things. Of course when we're trying to fix other people what were really doing is trying to control them and they generally rebel.


----------



## ButtPunch

You are not Kolors .... Remember that. These threads never follow a script.

Your WW could marry OM and have 10 kids and live happily ever after.

Until you are able to take your focus off of your wayward wife....ie (THE 180 Plan)

you are going to continue to ride on the pain train.

Detachment and indifference is what you need to be focused on.

The hell with her.


----------



## GusPolinski

gridcom said:


> Anyway, I'll see you all on Monday. I am actually having to go to a music festival this weekend while my wife goes to this wedding. The wedding, oddly enough, is like 30 miles from the festival. Both locations are like 100+ miles from where we live.


Any word on what OM will be wearing to the wedding?


----------



## Satya

gridcom said:


> As hard as Kolors tried, I honestly resent him when he posts about the pain his wife is going through in the end and how happy he is. And his attitude of "she got what she wanted". I'm trying to understand why it bothers me so much.


That feeling is the result of swallowing the bitter pill of reality. Your mind is still fixed on what you believe to be the selfless, moral, upstanding thing. It is, however, not always the thing that is right for you or leads you to happiness. 

I think you resent Kolors because you were hoping for a happy ending with his ex to make all of your efforts seem well invested and worthwhile. The reality is, there are no guarantees for any choice we make, but we must and should do our best at the time to _ choose wisely. _ 

A wise choice must involve weighing many things in your circumstances, and from my perspective one of the greatest things is the level of REMORSE your spouse demonstrates. 

Kolors woke up to the reality that he was the only one doing the hard work when it must take two.

Well, he found his new second and is happier for it. Many lessons to learn for all parties involved in his story. You must do what you think is the wisest choice FOR YOU.


----------



## convert

ThreeStrikes said:


> If you want the truth, put a VAR in her car. This advice has been given to you multiple times.
> 
> You seem to think you're above such things, but how is it different than spying on her location?
> 
> If you want to take a break from here, I highly recommend putting the VAR in her car while you're at it. Under her seat. Secure it with duct tape or velcro so it won't roll around. They're less than $100.
> 
> You will have your "truth" in a matter of days.
> 
> The question is: Will knowing the truth change anything?


I agree.

Now you say you have *GPS tracking on her phone and she knows it and knows you check it*

This is one of the reasons I believe the phone was put on air plane mode. maybe even coached by a toxic friend or even OM to do it.

Now I get why you don't want to do any more spying or listen to the VAR but it could really help you make up you mind one way or the other.
Not every VAR recording is bad, in my case it turned out to be less then i thought, it helped me make a decision to stay.


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## convert

I hope this will not add to any more anxiety but could the OM be at this wedding.
She did not want you to go because she wants space but often the space is for OM.

I wish you had a way to check on this, he may not be at the wedding itself but see her after.


Now I am all for R but not false R and this spying is to protect you from a false R. At this point I am not seeing any true R on your wife's part.


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## ButtPunch

Common sense says definitely have a VAR in her car before she goes to the wedding.


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## turnera

gridcom said:


> As hard as Kolors tried, I honestly resent him when he posts about the pain his wife is going through in the end and how happy he is. And his attitude of "she got what she wanted". I'm trying to understand why it bothers me so much


That's because you're afraid your heart will harden like his did, too. And you're not at 50,000 feet - so you can't even imagine you no longer loving your wife.

_And she knows it. Thus she has all the power in the marriage._


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## turnera

Thundarr said:


> This is common a trap and especially for fixers by nature.


As well as people with low self esteem - who by THEIR nature assume the spouse really doesn't want them and nobody else will, either.


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## turnera

Satya said:


> I think you resent Kolors because you were hoping for a happy ending with his ex to make all of your efforts seem well invested and worthwhile.


That, too.

grid, do you understand WHY we tell you to do the 180 (while still addressing what you did wrong in the marriage so she can see you improving yourself)? Have you given it much thought?

There IS a reason. It's so that you can mentally peel your psyche off of hers. Get a little bit of mental distance so that you can see the forest, not just the trees. Get that 50,000 ft in the sky view of your situation. Stop acting out of emotion, and act out of logic - which is more likely to save your marriage.

The 180 not only helps YOU stop throwing up on the side of the house, it helps you see what you can and can't change.

And, as we keep saying, once she sees that you're no longer a doormat, you INSTANTLY become more attractive. Basic psychology - we have disdain for what's thrown at us, we desire what we have to work for. Let her work for you.


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## LongWalk

Gridcom,

Unlike farsidejunky I did not get my shyt together and save my marriage. Today, much later, I conclude I was to blame. I had too many issues. I was not able to think clearly. That is why I come here and hand out advice. There are other great threads on TAM that you can read when you have time. However, you can ration them out so that you don't get overwhelmed by too much information.

One of the most important things is to know with who you are dealing. If a spouse has a personality disorder NPD or BPD or is manic depressive, the situation is far more difficult to deal with. If you and your WW just have FOO issues, IC and reading TAM can help immensely. There was guy here, Conrad, who got kicked off – his own fault. But as far as being a good coach mentor he was awesome. His bull shyte detector was excellent. He became the big brother, uncle or mentor or whatever. 

At the end of the day we all have to build in the mentor in our own heads. When you come up into a situation that causes uncertainty and anxiety, stop. Concentrate on some meaningless word with no association to break the train of thought. Ask yourself what someone you trust and admire would do in this situation. Do what they would do. 

You can even create a three person panel to vote. From the music industry you could have Neil Young, Kim Dial and Sufjan Stevens. Why them? They are all compassionate and have values but they will not do things that are bad for them. The Pixies are not the Pixies without Kim. She won't go on tour with them if they don't treat her right or fail to live up to her standards. Good for Kim. And actually good for the Pixies. Neil Young is the same. I don't know so much about Sufjan Stevens, but it is impossible to imagine him having crap judgment.

Your wife's current committee is David Crosby (heroin addict, lucky to be alive), John Lennon (hopeless co-dependent with Yoko) and (insert mixed up artist of your choice). 

If first panel had been advising you when you were panicking over the lack of telephone contact, what would they have suggested? What would lifeistooshort and jld recommended.

Keep things simple:

1) Don't worry about what your wife does at the wedding.
2) When you both get home is she happy to see you? Does she hug you? Don't chase her.
3) Book MC. Tell her the time and date. Do not engage in relationship discussion.
4) At MC lay out a plan for separation and divorce. Money is tight? You get a studio apartment close by and take turns living there. A week with kids in your home. And then a week in the apartment. No affair partners in home. She can do what she wants in the apartment.
5) The goal is to separate and build up resources for divorce.

If you separate, there is no longer an issue of control or co-dependence. If she is going to have great life without you, good luck to her. You will grieve and mourn but not sink under. Go to counseling every couple of weeks to discuss conflicts and issues.

Once she doesn't have you to blame as the scapegoat for all her unhappiness, it will be on her to discover what she wants in life. Is she going to be like her friend who has had a lot white trash boyfriends? You cannot control her. You can stay single until you know it is better to move on. Kolors left the door open to his ex for a long time. You can do it, too. However, you cannot allow her rejection to define your worth. You have to take that power away from her. She left your marriage. Making her stay against her will is pointless.

If in MC she says that she doesn't want to separate, you need to listen carefully to her reasons. if she says the apartment will be too expensive, then you know that she is not thinking clearly. Divorce costs money. Setting up new households is an expense. There is no escape.

If she doesn't want to share a satellite apartment, could be just a room in house, let her finance her own apartment. Live at your folks place until you save up enough money.

If she doesn't want to separate because she wants to try and save your marriage, then you have to conditions on both sides. She needs a new job. You need to start up your sex life. At the very least you have to go out on dates.

As you get stronger, the contradictions between the jld/lifeistooshort Ltd. and the Turnera/ButtPunch Inc. will diminish. You will know how go to bat and take the field.


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## turnera

Another benefit to separating and her 'trying on' this fantasy life her friends keep pushing on her - and I'm sorry if this hurts to hear - is that once she starts 'dating' she's going to quickly realize that at her age, the boys she picks to date (since she's trying to regain her lost childhood) are going to want one thing from her. And after 2 or 3 times where she gives them what they want and she never sees them again, she's going to start realizing this fantasy world her toxic friends keep talking about is really more about being alone, lonely, and BEING USED.

It actually might be the one thing that draws her back TO you.


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## ButtPunch

GusPolinski said:


> Any word on what OM will be wearing to the wedding?


I don't think so. I think he'll be patiently waiting in the hotel room drinking a cold one and watching some football awaiting her return.


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## Drew67

Having a suspicious mind is no good. But if trust is broken, sometimes, as with me, it's very difficult to mend... and it looks like you're in the same frame of mind. No trust.. no relationship.


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## GusPolinski

Drew67 said:


> Having a suspicious mind is no good. But if trust is broken, sometimes, as with me, it's very difficult to mend... and it looks like you're in the same frame of mind. No trust.. no relationship.


A lack of suspicion on OP's part at this point would mean that he's either naive, stupid, or both.

There is, after all, a stark difference between a healthy dose of skepticism/suspicion and rampant, unceasing paranoia.


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## LongWalk

And that's why she'll be distant when she gets back. Post coital rejection of sad betrayed husband — standard stuff especially after a weekend.

I asked Gridcom if he knows anyone at the wedding. Any chance there is a buddy or gal on his side?

They can tell him if WW shows up late with a flushed face and disappears as soon as she's congratulated the bride's parents.

She can leave her phone in her car by the reception and take a taxi to OM's motel.


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## convert

GusPolinski said:


> Any word on what OM will be wearing to the wedding?


That is what I was thinking
I missed you post before I posted this:

I hope this will not add to any more anxiety but could the OM be at this wedding.
She did not want you to go because she wants space but often the space is for OM.

*I wish you had a way to check on this, he may not be at the wedding itself but see her after.*


Now I am all for R but not false R and this spying is to protect you from a false R. At this point I am not seeing any true R on your wife's part.


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## ThreeStrikes

I can't recall. Was she taking the kids with her to the wedding?


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## LongWalk

Good question


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## ThreeStrikes

gridcom said:


> You know, she comes home last night and we finally talk and the end result is nothing has changed at all (so she says). She says she feels the same way, still can't see a future with me, still cant fathom the thought of taking a trip together somewhere, etc yet like I mentioned earlier in the thread:
> 
> *"A person committed to divorce would not engage you, would not make conversation about anything other than the kids or the divorce or money, wouldn't laugh at your jokes, certainly wouldn't cut out of work early to go with you to see a movie like War Room, wouldn't get dressed and undressed in front of you, wouldn't sleep in the same bed as you, wouldn't do anything but try to avoid you, actually."*
> 
> Yikes, now I am quoting myself...


Dispel yourself of this notion. This is the behavior of a woman who is biding her time. It's cake-eating.

She will make her move when the time is right, *for her*.

Grid, you mentioned she came home from an interview the other day. Is she looking for a new job? Didn't you say she loved her current job, and where she worked?


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## gridcom

Wife has agreed to Retrouvaille.

That's a single step in the right direction. There is a lot of work to be done on both sides. My efforts to "re-create feelings of love and attraction in her" are, quite honestly, failing. I am still frustrated by her lack of clarity and her having her "Affair Goggles" on. She does, however, acknowledge to some degree she is foggy. She does agree that her feelings for me are to some level corrupted by her feelings for her AP, even though she has cut that relationship off (as best as possible considering they are still working together)

I need to do a better job of showing patience. I really do. PLEASE, all efforts to tell me that she is playing me, that she is being a mischievous, cunning b^tch is white noise to me right now. I know my wife. Maybe one day I'll be back here with a "You guys were right all along" but I dont think so/hope not.

The Retrouvaille isnt until mid Nov. Until then, we both need to focus on ourselves and that in turn will help the marriage by proxy. I am "emotionally abusive" There. I said it. What can someone who is emotionally abusive do to stop being emotionally abusive? I really want to make this work. Some constructive comments about this would be great.

My wife needs to get her head straight, because her head is not straight right now. She is going to have to accept the fact that there is hard work ahead for her now, regardless of what direction she goes. She has it in her though. i just need to encourage her in the right way, which isnt easy. i am super frustrated with this whole situation and it shows. There is a lot of sh^t eating that happens as the BS, regardless of who was at fault for the failures of a marriage prior to the affair. The sh^t I have to deal with now; the lack of sleep, the lack of joy, the lack of focus at work, walking around with a slouch and defeated look on my face, handling my own money now (and doing very poorly), dealing with neighbors who are asking me what I did wrong that prompted me to go to Church, dealing with my kids especially my older daughter who knows what is going on and is a beaming light of positivity in this whole thing. I went to Back To School night and she had a poster up in the hallway proclaiming me her HERO. She said "He is very kind but sensitive. If something is wrong he works day and night to fix it" Kids on point and a genius.

Working day and night to fix this is working against me. The overwhelming consensus to pull back and retreat in a situation like this works VERY MUCH against my nature. My IC's advice was to "do less" Thanks lady

Any other advice on confronting or controlling or defeating emotional abuse is what I am looking for


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## turnera

Good job on Retrouvaille.

Here's some info:
Here's how to tell if you are an emotionally abusive man:

Does it feel like your wife or girlfriend pushes your buttons?
Does she have a way of putting you in a bad mood?
Are there times when you don't want to speak to her or be around her?
Do you feel like you overlook a lot or swallow a lot, until you can't stand it anymore?
Does she frequently "do things the wrong way?"
Can you be having a nice time and then out of nowhere she says or does something to set you off?
Are you sometimes on edge about having a bad or unpleasant evening?
Does it feel like you have to criticize her for not being more efficient, reliable, or a better person?
Does it feel like she makes you yell or shut down when you really don't want to raise your voice or be in a bad mood at all?
Do you treat her in ways you couldn't have imagined when you first started loving her?

If you answered yes to any of the above, here are some things that your wife probably says about you:

He's so moody.
He doesn't see or hear me.
I feel like I'm his possession.
I can't be myself; I have to think, feel, and behave the way he wants.
Nothing I do is good enough.
I feel like I'm walking on eggshells.

IF that fits (and I'm not sure it does), this follows:
The Way Out: Self-Compassion
Self-compassion begins with greater sensitivity to the resentment that causes emotional abuse. It is sympathy for the perceived hurt or loss of self-value that causes resentment. Most important, it includes motivation to heal and improve.

Since the experience of resentment rarely improves anything and never heals the hurt that caused it, most resentment - and all acts of abuse - are failures of self-compassion.

As we develop more self-compassion, we are motivated less by temporary feelings and more by our deepest values. As a result, we automatically become more compassionate to the people we love.

The key to a successful relationship is maintaining a sometimes delicate balance between self-compassion and compassion for loved ones.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/anger-in-the-age-entitlement/201004/are-you-emotionally-abusive

And personally, I would add: COMMUNICATION. Safe, honest, non-blaming communication. Every week. Set up a 'state of the marriage' meeting for 15-20 minutes every week where you promise to talk to each other in a nonp-blaming way about what went good and what went bad this past week. That's how you fix the resentment stuff mentioned above. Remove the resentment, improve the communication, and you'll be happier with each other and more willing to DO for each other.


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## LongWalk

gridcom said:


> Wife has agreed to Retrouvaille.


Good. Is she still going to the wedding? Who is taking care of the kids?



> My efforts to "re-create feelings of love and attraction in her" are, quite honestly, failing.


Trying to convince or hard woo your wife into desiring you won't work. You understand this intellectually but are still unable to stop yourself from pursuit. The harder you chase, the faster she'll run.



> I am still frustrated by her lack of clarity and her having her "Affair Goggles" on. She does, however, acknowledge to some degree she is foggy. She does agree that her feelings for me are to some level corrupted by her feelings for her AP, even though she has cut that relationship off (as best as possible considering they are still working together)


Relationship discussion is your enemy. Stop it.



> I need to do a better job of showing patience. I really do. PLEASE, all efforts to tell me that she is playing me, that she is being a mischievous, cunning b^tch is white noise to me right now. I know my wife. Maybe one day I'll be back here with a "You guys were right all along" but I dont think so/hope not.


Merely getting her to stop the affair will not save your marriage if she is not in love with you and the affair was a move towards the exit.

She was in love with OM for a year but you did not notice. Was she a "mischievous, cunning b^tch" during that period? 

Wouldn't it be best if she admitted that she was duplicitous and is uncomfortable with that new self knowledge?



> The Retrouvaille isnt until mid Nov. Until then, we both need to focus on ourselves and that in turn will help the marriage by proxy. I am "emotionally abusive" There. I said it. What can someone who is emotionally abusive do to stop being emotionally abusive? I really want to make this work. Some constructive comments about this would be great.


Why are you emotionally abusive?



> My wife needs to get her head straight, because her head is not straight right now. She is going to have to accept the fact that there is hard work ahead for her now, regardless of what direction she goes. She has it in her though. i just need to encourage her in the right way, which isnt easy. i am super frustrated with this whole situation and it shows.


Get rid of your frustrations in the gym. Don't drink. You don't need to encourage her in the right way. You cannot change her. You can only change yourself.



> There is a lot of sh^t eating that happens as the BS, regardless of who was at fault for the failures of a marriage prior to the affair. The sh^t I have to deal with now; the lack of sleep, the lack of joy, the lack of focus at work, walking around with a slouch and defeated look on my face, handling my own money now (and doing very poorly), dealing with neighbors who are asking me what I did wrong that prompted me to go to Church, dealing with my kids especially my older daughter who knows what is going on and is a beaming light of positivity in this whole thing. I went to Back To School night and she had a poster up in the hallway proclaiming me her HERO. She said "He is very kind but sensitive. If something is wrong he works day and night to fix it" Kids on point and a genius.


Your wife doesn't want to be fixed by you. 



> Working day and night to fix this is working against me. The overwhelming consensus to pull back and retreat in a situation like this works VERY MUCH against my nature. My IC's advice was to "do less" Thanks lady


You pay her money for her advice. Listen to her.



> Any other advice on confronting or controlling or defeating emotional abuse is what I am looking for


Do you and your wife argue about money a lot?


----------



## gridcom

LongWalk said:


> Good. Is she still going to the wedding? Who is taking care of the kids?
> 
> Yes going to the wedding. I don't think there is anything on her mind but to get dressed up and see some old friends. Hopefully there isn't a rich single guy there though
> 
> Trying to convince or hard woo your wife into desiring you won't work. You understand this intellectually but are still unable to stop yourself from pursuit. The harder you chase, the faster she'll run.
> 
> 
> 
> Relationship discussion is your enemy. Stop it.
> 
> I know
> 
> Merely getting her to stop the affair will not save your marriage if she is not in love with you and the affair was a move towards the exit.
> 
> She was in love with OM for a year but you did not notice. Was she a "mischievous, cunning b^tch" during that period?
> 
> No, She made me happy
> 
> Wouldn't it be best if she admitted that she was duplicitous and is uncomfortable with that new self knowledge?
> 
> 
> 
> Why are you emotionally abusive?
> 
> I've read a lot about it this week and I thought what Tunera had above was most accurate. Everything else I read mainly show examples of men who are chronic abusers. As in like, that's what they do all the time. I feel like I'm a pretty normal guy to my wife. We generally get along, you know? There could be more affection and gentle touching and appreciation, but generally we co-habitate in a friendly "marriage-esque" manner. We are compatible and share similar interests and the sex life is (was) fine. It's just that when we have fight, I then become emotionally abusive at that time. Specifically, I just can't argue peacefully and I can act like a pouty d^ck. And that extends the length of the fight to days and solves nothing (as noted in Tunera's post) and the length of that fight wears my wife down and builds resentment. You know, it sucks to write it out but feels good at the same time. That said, I'd honestly grade myself "mild to lower middle" on the scale of emotional abuse based on what I've read, And that's based on intensity (bad enough for sure) and frequency (less and less frequently as the years have gone on). That said, it sucks to be cheated on, but honestly it must suck to be talked to like I sometimes talk to my wife, and that's the truth.
> 
> I think very simply also my father was emotionally and sometimes physically abusive to my mother, and was far worse than I. I didnt like that he did it obviously, as my mother often weeped and, you know, that's sad for a kid. But, here we are and I definitely picked up those traits. But, unlike my father, I have a stronger woman (despite the affair) and on the plus side, I'm aware and looking to correct. My father never corrected.
> 
> But, generally speaking, I'm usually a happy guy. What I need is inner strength to overcome the impusles. It's that simple but at the same time not easy at all. I think if I can learn the inner strength, either by faith or by repitition and applying techniques, coupled with just paying more attention in general, that's the battle plan right there.
> 
> Get rid of your frustrations in the gym. Don't drink. You don't need to encourage her in the right way. You cannot change her. You can only change yourself.
> 
> 
> 
> Your wife doesn't want to be fixed by you.
> 
> 
> 
> You pay her money for her advice. Listen to her.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you and your wife argue about money a lot?


Not really. I mean, we have enough to get by right now. ` We may be getting caught with health insurance and deductables I don't understand as it pertains to counselors and that will stink. But, generally she has handled the money and has done a good job. Way better than me. It's aggravating. More karma for me.


----------



## LongWalk

If your angry controlling behavior (abuse) has destroyed your wife's regard, that is a serious blow to your relationship. The jld, lifeistooshort gang can coach you by presenting your wife's point of view (or at least what they make of it from your presentation). Gus, turnera, ButtPunch voices can help you to see the zero tolerance for cheating principles.

When you track with the phone app, that is controlling behavior. Adding the VAR is in principle no different.

But in any case to execute either strategy you have to be consistent. You are both the general and the soldier. Naturally, the soldier is afraid before battle, for the general's plan may be wrong. If the soldier fails to carry out the orders, then the plan, however, good will fail. You need the right plan and the correct execution. By discussing your choices here you will always get advice. Often the advice is the cheapest and most immediate counseling and therapy available. 

Read Bagdon's thread. He got is wife back after she fell out of love. He was neither a doormat nor an angry guy. He changed himself and his wife was very happy.

Your wife has cut you off sexually. That is hellish. But you can turn this to your advantage. If she is not getting it from OM, then eventually she will be horny. If you are working out. In a good temper, temper. Cracking jokes and smiling from time to time. Eventually, your wife may sleep with you again. But anxious controlling guy is not sexy. 

Evidence gathering mode cannot be emotional and angry.


----------



## gridcom

LongWalk said:


> If your angry controlling behavior (abuse) has destroyed your wife's regard, that is a serious blow to your relationship. The jld, lifeistooshort gang can coach you by presenting your wife's point of view (or at least what they make of it from your presentation). Gus, turnera, ButtPunch voices can help you to see the zero tolerance for cheating principles.
> 
> When you track with the phone app, that is controlling behavior. Adding the VAR is in principle no different.
> 
> But in any case to execute either strategy you have to be consistent. You are both the general and the soldier. Naturally, the soldier is afraid before battle, for the general's plan may be wrong. If the soldier fails to carry out the orders, then the plan, however, good will fail. You need the right plan and the correct execution. By discussing your choices here you will always get advice. Often the advice is the cheapest and most immediate counseling and therapy available.
> 
> Read Bagdon's thread. He got is wife back after she fell out of love. He was neither a doormat nor an angry guy. He changed himself and his wife was very happy.
> 
> Your wife has cut you off sexually. That is hellish. But you can turn this to your advantage. If she is not getting it from OM, then eventually she will be horny. If you are working out. In a good temper, temper. Cracking jokes and smiling from time to time. Eventually, your wife may sleep with you again. But anxious controlling guy is not sexy.
> 
> Evidence gathering mode cannot be emotional and angry.


Dude, thats some good sh^t, right there. Thank you


----------



## cbnero

I won't try to deter you from your chosen path. The only thing I would caution is accepting the emotional abuse title. Case could be made that every time a man makes his wife feel bad it is emotional abuse. And vice versa. But that's marriage between 2 separate people sometimes and everyone is human and flawed. Could you do things differently? Sure. Everyone could.

The Internet is quick to slap the abuse label on any man that ever gets upset. Sometimes it is warranted but I think it's overused and misplaced many times. Especially since it is a favorite term amongst cheating wives and that's when it comes up the most. Always after an affair when they are blameshifting.

So with that in mind, work on yourself and your issues, but do not take more blame than you should. It took 2 to get to this point. It will take 2 to move past it. If it's just you doing all the work then be objective about it and recognize it could be a bad situation for you to continue vs putting yourself through continuous hell.

Best of luck grid!


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## LongWalk

I agree with you CBNero that wrongly taking on a label is a bad psychological mindset. 

A person who is an alcoholic needs to admit the problem. To quit booze is to merely dry out. That is an achievement but it does not mean one has dealt with any underlying issues. That is therapy can help people gain insight.

Following rules, e.g., don't get angry and express it destructively, is not the same as understanding why one is angry and controlling in a healthy way. 

Gridcom may be able to quit the control mode that is bad for his relationship by recognizing its expression and stopping it. But if his wife is cheating he should be mad. The key is to channel the negative emotions into positive action, e.g., working out, engaged parenting, etc.

re: Wedding
She is going and you are worried that she'll meet single rich guy. This is negative thinking. Better to get one's own financial house in order and be the guy you want to be. That guy may be the guy she wants. Be the best version of yourself. That person may surpass your expectations. If your wife doesn't recognize that person or rejects him, you have to move on in life. The last thing you want to do is divorce and be broken for two years. The stronger you are now, the easier it will be to fact whatever the future turns out to be.


----------



## Chaparral

Read frustrated man's thread and see where letting a wife work with an affair partner has gotten him.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/213401-let-bashing-begin.html


----------



## lifeistooshort

There is still a lot here that makes no sense to me. There is a group here that believes grid's wife has in fact been screwing OM for a year, without any backup other than the claim that she's been in love with him for a year. Yet we're constantly hearing on TAM about how women who fall for their lovers in turn will save themselves for said lovers and not want to cheat on them and as such will deprive the husband. Yet grid is saying that their sex life was fine and he was happy. So what are the odds she was sleeping with both of them, in love with OM, and grid had no idea?

So either grid was monumentally detached or uninterested in his wife emotionally or she has in fact not been sleeping with this OM for a year. Unless of course grid's wife is a fabulous liar (which according to him she's not) and had no problem keeping this double life going for this entire year. Generally when this happens we'll hear how the husband (or wife) knew there were problems, intimacy wasn't great, but they had no idea there was another person involved. So how to reconcile that grid says he was happy? Unless his requirements for marriage are much different then his wife and he doesn't need all that much attachment. My ex was in fact like this; as long as he got sex when he wanted it and got his what went on in my life was of little concern. I was detached for a long time and he had no idea, probably just figured that life was great because I wasn't bothering him. He didn't start to wonder until I began flat out refusing sex with him and demanded a divorce, then it was way too late.

But I probably could've had 10 OM and as long as he was getting his he would've had no idea, and I'm not a person that can carry on with multiple partners at once. Not literally at once of course but sex involves too much attachment for me to be sleeping with more than one guy at once. Ex just wasn't that interested in me or my life.

Grid is not an ahole on the level my ex was, and he is capable of introspection (which my ex wasn't and still isn't). But how is it that his wife could've been so unhappy and detached and he had no idea? Clearly the marriage was working for him until she announced the existence of this other guy. So how do we reconcile all of this?

I personally think grid's wife has fantasized this OM because she's unhappy with a husband she perceives as angry and controlling and maybe not all that interested in her emotionally. Grid, what is your take on this? When a person is deprived sexually it doesn't take much temptation for them to succumb to other offers. Likewise when a person is deprived emotionally it doesn't take much to succumb to another who seems interested in them, and this is a much more slippery slope because it's sometimes hard to discern between a friend and a marital threat. A vulnerable person often lacks good judgement and if they become angry enough they can start to rationalize that their spouse deserves it.


----------



## gridcom

This marriage cannot move ahead if she continues to work with the guy. She loves the job but if she is really going to try to make the marriage work, that will include choosing her family over her job. To think she could do both and it not be a hindrance to healing is ridiculous. 

That said, she hasn't fully committed to making the marriage move ahead. So, for now she figures why change the job? Retrouvaille is just one small step. I hope to see more steps in the right direction come from that first step. The person she really wants to be with is the best ME. We are compatible and never grew apart, which makes the whole thing a bit more tragic. She just isn't sure if I can make it happen.


----------



## gridcom

This marriage cannot move ahead if she continues to work with the guy. She loves the job but if she is really going to try to make the marriage work, that will include choosing her family over her job. To think she could do both and it not be a hindrance to healing is ridiculous. 

That said, she hasn't fully committed to making the marriage move ahead. So, for now she figures why change the job? Retrouvaille is just one small step. I hope to see more steps in the right direction come from that first step. The person she really wants to be with is the best ME. We are compatible and never grew apart, which makes the whole thing a bit more tragic. She just isn't sure if I can make it happen.


----------



## gridcom

lifeistooshort said:


> I personally think grid's wife has fantasized this OM because she's unhappy with a husband she perceives as angry and controlling and maybe not all that interested in her emotionally. Grid, what is your take on this? When a person is deprived sexually it doesn't take much temptation for them to succumb to other offers. Likewise when a person is deprived emotionally it doesn't take much to succumb to another who seems interested in them, and this is a much more slippery slope because it's sometimes hard to discern between a friend and a marital threat. A vulnerable person often lacks good judgement and if they become angry enough they can start to rationalize that their spouse deserves it.


I think this is exactly right except for the angry part. Like I said, I am generally not walking around "angry". She was deprived emotionally, not sexually. We became more partners and less married. I was, in fact, actually married to my job. I loved doing what I do for a living and because I loved it, I spent a lot of time doing it. Ironically, I'm loving it a whole lot less right now. Work wise, I feel like a kite without a string or someone holding it. It's become very pointless. 

The other issue is that my wife didn't properly address the issues in the marriage. I've talked about it before. Instead of yelling "I'm sick of this!" or "I've had it with you!" when we were fighting, she should have come to me calmly and really let me know she wasn't happy. ONE TIME! It never happened. Never a plea that we needed to help in our marriage. Never a constructive approach to get me to open my workaholic eyes to her unhappiness. She just fell into quicksand emotionally with another man, then the dam burst, she slept with him, and came home having tried to murder the marriage


----------



## lifeistooshort

gridcom said:


> I think this is exactly right except for the angry part. Like I said, I am generally not walking around "angry". She was deprived emotionally, not sexually. We became more partners and less married. I was, in fact, actually married to my job. I loved doing what I do for a living and because I loved it, I spent a lot of time doing it. Ironically, I'm loving it a whole lot less right now. Work wise, I feel like a kite without a string or someone holding it. It's become very pointless.
> 
> The other issue is that my wife didn't properly address the issues in the marriage. I've talked about it before. Instead of yelling "I'm sick of this!" or "I've had it with you!" when we were fighting, she should have come to me calmly and really let me know she wasn't happy. ONE TIME! It never happened. Never a plea that we needed to help in our marriage. Never a constructive approach to get me to open my workaholic eyes to her unhappiness. She just fell into quicksand emotionally with another man, then the dam burst, she slept with him, and came home having tried to murder the marriage



Yeah, it's hard to focus on work when your life is falling apart around you. I remember when I was going through my divorce I started getting numbness in my fingers. I was really freaked out about it and my dad told me to calm down because it was stress. He was right, it went away when everything was over. I'm the one that wanted the divorce but it was still stressful to deal with a po'd ex, one who was convinced that I was an evil b!tch because I was divorcing him. Claimed I stole his taxes, among other things.....it wasn't "his" taxes.....it was "our" taxes that went to support our kids, but he had no idea what was involved in raising kids anyway. The fact that he'd treated me like crap didn't register because in his mind his only responsibility was to keep a job and he did that so what's the problem?

I agree your wife has to get better at communicating, though I think that needs to be addressed together. Is it possible that she didn't know how to do it when you weren't fighting? I know I struggle with this a lot even in my current marriage because I'm emotionally damaged this way from my childhood. I don't know how to communicate things that bother me because I am a CSA survivor who learned that my needs weren't all that important, and I also watched my parents fight dirty and name call. Because of this I learned that words are incredible hurtful so I am extra careful before I say something.

Compound that with the fact that my husband really doesn't do conflict well and likes to play dumb when he knows very well what's bothering me. I know this because he's admitted after the fact that he knew but hoped it would go away, so it leaves the impetus on me to always address things and frankly I find that intimidating. We had a big fight last year where I tried to talk to him about something that was really bothering me and it made him uncomfortable to he got up and walked away and simply ignored me. For someone like me who has trouble making myself vulnerable that was pretty damaging, I learned that he can't be approached about things that make him uncomfortable to deal with.

We have a pretty good marriage in general but I really don't know how to talk to him about things that bother me. We had another incident a couple of weeks ago where he just played dumb and I decided to say fvck it to myself and just forget it. I still struggle with how to convey what's bothering me. Is you wife like that?

You guys need to work to work together so she gets better at communicating and you get better at listening. Maybe that's work both ways, which would be a win for you.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

lifeistooshort said:


> There is still a lot here that makes no sense to me. There is a group here that believes grid's wife has in fact been screwing OM for a year, without any backup other than the claim that she's been in love with him for a year. Yet we're constantly hearing on TAM about how women who fall for their lovers in turn will save themselves for said lovers and not want to cheat on them and as such will deprive the husband. Yet grid is saying that their sex life was fine and he was happy. So what are the odds she was sleeping with both of them, in love with OM, and grid had no idea?


We also hear, constantly, about the wife who likes to have them both on the same day. We also hear about sex life staying the same, but the acts changing.

I agree we have no clue either way.


----------



## LongWalk

Again lifeistooshort has some profound questions:



> Unless his requirements for marriage are much different then his wife and he doesn't need all that much attachment. My ex was in fact like this; *as long as he got sex when he wanted it and got his what went on in my life was of little concern. I was detached for a long time and he had no idea, probably just figured that life was great because I wasn't bothering him. He didn't start to wonder until I began flat out refusing sex with him and demanded a divorce, then it was way too late.[*/QUOTE]
> 
> Your description may be true. However, one should also remember that by her own admission the emotional affair went on a year. She may have been feeling empty long before this. When she and OM became involved, she may have been in a better mood, more cheerful. This being in love may have made her generally more pleasant. So if Gridcom's sex life seemed good at this time, it could in part have been him misreading her general state of mind.
> 
> It is possible for an emotional work affair to go on sometime before igniting a PA. It is not clear if Gridcom's wife is being straight about the timeline. Cheater's typically do not tell the truth.
> 
> Gridcom has described his work with music. It has been a passion for him and even if they have not gotten rich from it, he is far ahead of the average amateur in the game. After all the life of artists is full of difficulties.
> 
> At one time his wife may have enjoyed his stories about what was happening with his clients or projects, but eventually she began to feel that the pay off was coming at her expense. He was putting in too much time and unappreciative of her support. Perhaps she understands what he is doing, perhaps not. But he was uninterested in her role.
> 
> Suddenly, now that their marriage is failing, the importance of her role is conspicuous. For Gridcom can no longer concentrate on work.
> 
> Right now her actions have a large component of honesty. She has told him that she does not love him and is not attracted to him. Is she now asking herself whether it is worth it to stay and work to fall back in love. If she forced herself to have sex with him, that could introduce a new lie into their relationship because she would be using sex to paper over the emptiness she feels.
> 
> There was news report about the fires in California. They interviewed a firefighter who never has time off because the fires are now always burning. Once there was a defined fire season. Now they go weeks at a time without a break year round. His work has enormous meaning since he and his colleagues fight to save individual homes, businesses and even pets from feeding the blaze. You could say that indirectly the firefighters are even saving families and marriages, for it is clear that for some victims the destruction of their property and possessions will also cause a fatal blow to their marriages.
> 
> The report noted in passing that his marriage had been destroyed by his work. He hardly got home. Probably when he did he felt he was a worn out hero who deserved to relax. He wanted to bang his wife. Drink some beers and get the nightmares out of head. He had no energy to listen to his wife and hear about her loneliness and struggles.
> 
> Perhaps if the people whom the firefighter had saved were able to convey their gratitude to her, she would better appreciate her husband. But on the other hand who was working to tell him about her efforts?
> 
> Your wife's willingness to try Retrouvaille is a good sign, even if she is doing out of a sense of duty rather than love.
> 
> What do you have the strength to do now?
> 
> Can you snoop, monitor and spy and maintain mental sanity? It is interesting that one poster recommended Frustratedman's thread to you. After years of denial he final found proof that his wife had been lying about her emotional relationship with OM. The cost of searching and being suspicious also damaged him. The message that he eventually found had OM admit to thinking about kissing WW, but it did not actually reveal more. Had they kissed in the past? If so, when? Had they broken off the affair and were struggling to not jump back in?
> 
> He did not learn more because he angrily confronted his wife and they will now divorce.
> 
> Can you now keep your emotions under control if you discover something wrong?
> 
> Can you keep your work in order?
> 
> Can you wear a fake till you make it attitude that even if your wife can see through it, she will warm up to you?
> 
> Could you offer your wife a facial massage, not to have sex but just to allow her to completely relax. Maybe after the a good night's sleep she will begin to talk more about what is going on in her head. But if you go this lifeistooshort/jld path, you need to make certain that you are succeeding at work, parenting, being a together guy.
> 
> Pretty tough to do it all.


----------



## gridcom

I have been away this weekend. I have been at a music festival not very far from where the wedding she went to was. it is only my second time out of the town we live in since this started (11 weeks tomorrow). Only my second time in 11 weeks I've left our little town alone. I actually didn't want to come here , but I am glad I did. My brain was just caving in on me, just embers of fire making it impossible to navigate my own mind. I got a nice 3 hour drive up and a 3 hour drive later today back home, and I've got a room to myself away from the wife, kids, and familiarity of the house.

When I get back home I am walking in the door committed to being a better husband. We'll handle my wife's affair if and when the time comes. I'm sure she is dealing with it on her own right now 

My wife has got to know that she has a lot of hard work ahead of her. Regardless of if she attempts to fix There is NO easy way out of this. 

My wife went to the wedding yesterday and I asked her to send me a picture of her dressed up and she sent it and it was beautiful. Not what she was wearing, but it was in her face; in her eyes. I look at this picture and wonder how I f^cked this up so bad, because this picture is all I ever wanted out of life.

EDIT: How WE f^cked this up so bad, not I


----------



## anchorwatch

Don't try to be her teacher, Grid. 

Every time you try to educate her you look like you're preaching. 

She has to learn on her own for it to be of any value. 

You just be that better man in the way you live. 

Best


----------



## Anon Pink

Grid, glad to hear Retrouvaille is a go! The weekend is rather intense. You both will learn invaluable communication AND listening skills! I'm sorry it's not happening until November but maybe that's for the best. Maybe it will give your wife enough time to emotionally really separate herself from the POSOM. 

The one thing I kept telling my husband through out our weekend was that I wasn't convinced the changes were real and therefor had no intention of reinvesting. But I did tell him that I would be truthful about how I felt. That was the first day. 

There were times I felt extremely guilty that I could NOT feel invested because I saw how hard he was trying and how difficult it was for him, it made me feel that if I were a good wife I would be able to respond in kind, but I just couldn't. That was the second day.


That kind of communication was actually very helpful for him. As we continued using the Retrouvaille communication skills, my skepticism slowly melted away. We've certainly had bumps since our weekend but the skills we learned have continued to be extremely impactful.


----------



## jld

If I were you, and this is obviously my own opinion, I would change the edit back to "I". It will make you feel more empowered if you see yourself as causing this, because then you will see yourself as being able to fix it. 

If you insist on "we", you may find yourself developing expectations of your wife that you then get angry about when she does not immediately fulfill them. 

Keep the emphasis on "I", and I think things will not only get worked out much faster, but she will be inspired to follow your example.


----------



## ButtPunch

Anyone else think this affair is still going on or is it just me.


----------



## LongWalk

In his wife's head she is saving herself for OM(z). That's at minimum a lack of emotional commitment to R.

Gridcom needs to spy but not expose his inner emotional turmoil.

Bagdon's wife was not interested in sex but she had not begun to cheat on him.

Kolors wife may or may not have cheated but she cut him off.

Road Scholar's wife was in false R. Six months of no sex.

bff's wife was cheating long time with is best friend. There was enough sex to throw him of the trail.

ShamWow's wife cut back on sex. She was cheating.

Eric's wife was into OM not him.

Dday... wife was giving him some sex but in love with bff's heroin addict brother. He came back after he caught her with OM2 from kick boxing. She was an instructor. He never came back to share what happened in the end. Assume he divorced her.

HardtoDetach got his STBXWW to cheat on OM and he won his wife back. Lot of work to fix marriage but at least she was into him.

Gridcom,

Jld urges you to accept blame and forgive your wife. But her husband, who comes on TAM sometimes, doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who would accept infidelity. He wouldn't display anger; he would just divorce. He sure wouldn't beg.


----------



## GusPolinski

ButtPunch said:


> Anyone else think this affair is still going on or is it just me.


Ditto.


----------



## LongWalk

They work at the same place and it has irregular hours.

Check her panties.


----------



## turnera

LongWalk said:


> Jld urges you to accept blame and forgive your wife. But her husband, who comes on TAM sometimes, doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who would accept infidelity. He wouldn't display anger; he would just divorce. He sure wouldn't beg.


Ain't that the truth.


----------



## ButtPunch

Longwalk

You've turned into a TAM historian.


----------



## tom67

ButtPunch said:


> Longwalk
> 
> You've turned into a TAM historian.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:
And I love that unique name Buttpunch:grin2:


----------



## ButtPunch

Were her kids with her at the wedding? Has this been answered yet?


----------



## farsidejunky

LongWalk said:


> Jld urges you to accept blame and forgive your wife. But her husband, who comes on TAM sometimes, doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who would accept infidelity. He wouldn't display anger; he would just divorce. He sure wouldn't beg.


I think you are off on this on, LW. 

Dug is no nonsense for certain, but he also has the approach that whatever happens within their marriage is his fault, and his responsibility to fix.


----------



## LongWalk

People don't always do the things we expect. I like jld and Dug. They have a good marriage. I don't think they are the type to cheat. Neither Dug nor jld are shallow people. They work out their problems. I don't want to create a discussion about them personally. That is a distraction.

Let me put differently. The philosophy of Dug and ButtPunch might on the surface appear diametrically opposed. But I am not sure they are. I am sure there are some betrayed spouse who who just look at the wayward and say "how could you." The tone of voice and the look in their eye is enough to melt the so-called fog.

But in any case Gridcom can only see the situation from 50,000 feet if he rebuilds his self respect. His wife cannot do that. In that sense the jld, lifeistooshort and buttpunch are all the same. The betrayed spouse has to pull him or herself together. Just like the instructions on airplanes to put your own oxygen mask on first, then your kids. The reasoning is simple. If you put your child's mask on and then pass out and die, your child is still in a desperate situation. If you have your mask on, your child has not suffered brain damage yet. You will still be in time to save it.

That is the reason the 180 is so essential. It helps you clear your head. In that sense Gridcom's wife is holding him at arms length waiting to see what he will do. If she tries to take his mask off, i.e., by continuing to cheat, he must get away from her. At the very least he has to put the cake away.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

The "fix" to a relationship where one partner ignores and crosses boundaries, without remorse, is* ending the relationship.*

If your partner is a criminal, and won't stop that behavior...you end the relationship.

If your partner is an addict, and won't get help for it...you end the relationship.

If your partner is an unrepentant cheater, and won't re-commit to the marriage...you end the relationship.

If your partner is abusive and won't stop the abuse....you end the relationship.

If you don't end the relationship, you are enabling the crappy behavior. Codependence.

We cannot control other people.


----------



## Evinrude58

jld said:


> If I were you, and this is obviously my own opinion, I would change the edit back to "I". It will make you feel more empowered if you see yourself as causing this, because then you will see yourself as being able to fix it.
> 
> If you insist on "we", you may find yourself developing expectations of your wife that you then get angry about when she does not immediately fulfill them.
> 
> Keep the emphasis on "I", and I think things will not only get worked out much faster, but she will be inspired to follow your example.


WOW! Definitely a skewed-toward-the-cheater point of view in my opinion. My take on this is that the WW is just feeling guilty about what she has done and making this poor man feel like he is the lowest of the low for being a hard-working man who had his mind on working and not on romance. He can't insist on "we", that's for sure. I doubt he can "I" his way into his wife's heart, either. Let's not forget, she is a cheater. She's been cheating for a YEAR, and doesn't want to be married. Either "we" will fix it or "we" will be divorced...


----------



## jld

Evinrude58 said:


> WOW! Definitely a skewed-toward-the-cheater point of view in my opinion. My take on this is that the WW is just feeling guilty about what she has done and making this poor man feel like he is the lowest of the low for being a hard-working man who had his mind on working and not on romance. He can't insist on "we", that's for sure. I doubt he can "I" his way into his wife's heart, either. Let's not forget, she is a cheater. She's been cheating for a YEAR, and doesn't want to be married. Either "we" will fix it or "we" will be divorced...


She has been attracted to him for a year, slept with him once, is how I understand it.

I don't know how to recover from this sort of thing without letting one's pride go. I think whoever is going to be the leader is going to have to be very humble. And whoever is going to be the leader is probably the person who wants reconciliation more.

She is a cheater, and he is a neglecter. There are consequences for both.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> I think you are off on this on, LW.
> 
> Dug is no nonsense for certain, but he also has the approach that whatever happens within their marriage is his fault, and his responsibility to fix.


This is correct. Dug sees himself as having more power in our marriage, and therefore feels he has more responsibility when things go wrong, too. 

He said once that if I had an affair, we would go to counseling, and he would want to know what he had done wrong. 

I cannot see Dug ever expecting me to comfort him or reassure him. He does that himself. He is just not one to ask a woman to carry him.


----------



## Evinrude58

I'm not so stupid as to not listen when you post- Your perspective of things is interesting and there's always something to learn. 
I do feel that if she has been giving this other man her thoughts and emotions, it makes no difference mentally how many times she had sex with him, although I doubt the one- time thing.
The OP is remorseful for whatever role he had in this. But a man shouldn't have to wonder what he did to "make" his wife cheat. There's just some places a good person doesn't let their mind wander to, and experimenting with other men or even sharing private thoughts with another man should be one of the things a husband or wife doesn't do.
I've seen women run around and divorce a husband that was doing all the right things. Some people are just lacking character. 
I think the op is going to draw out his own pain by letting her "eat her cake" , as they say. 
She is devoid of loyalty is my point. 
Was he a bad husband? Only he knows, and he himself doesn't know right now. All he can think clearly about is how much he regrets all the things he feels caused this that in his mind, were his fault. I'll bet half of the things he feels lousy about are being amplified in his own mind because his wife has made him an emotional wreck. 

If it were only possible, he'd ask himself if a disloyal, cheating wife was who he wanted to be married to. If he stays married, that's what he has. She has no remorse, and on that basis, will eventually do it again. 

I do wish the op the best.


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> She is a cheater, and he is a neglecter. There are consequences for both.


I wholeheartedly agree with you. However one is not a consequence of the other.


----------



## gridcom

Evinrude58 said:


> I'm not so stupid as to not listen when you post- Your perspective of things is interesting and there's always something to learn.
> I do feel that if she has been giving this other man her thoughts and emotions, it makes no difference mentally how many times she had sex with him, although I doubt the one- time thing.
> The OP is remorseful for whatever role he had in this. But a man shouldn't have to wonder what he did to "make" his wife cheat. There's just some places a good person doesn't let their mind wander to, and experimenting with other men or even sharing private thoughts with another man should be one of the things a husband or wife doesn't do.
> I've seen women run around and divorce a husband that was doing all the right things. Some people are just lacking character.
> I think the op is going to draw out his own pain by letting her "eat her cake" , as they say.
> She is devoid of loyalty is my point.
> Was he a bad husband? Only he knows, and he himself doesn't know right now. All he can think clearly about is how much he regrets all the things he feels caused this that in his mind, were his fault. I'll bet half of the things he feels lousy about are being amplified in his own mind because his wife has made him an emotional wreck.
> 
> If it were only possible, he'd ask himself if a disloyal, cheating wife was who he wanted to be married to. If he stays married, that's what he has. She has no remorse, and on that basis, will eventually do it again.
> 
> I do wish the op the best.


Man, this post is so on point and so painful to read.
I've been trying to stay away from here today but this post bothers the sh^t out of me. Especially this:

_I'll bet half of the things he feels lousy about are being amplified in his own mind because his wife has made him an emotional wreck. 
_

We are in such a sensitive spot right now. I am so concerned with my children's emotional well being. I don't think my wife is at all concerned with where they land emotionally (or financially) in all of this. My kids and I interact and they are currently fine, great in fact. I look at them and it just rips away at me knowing how much they are going to be hurt by all of this and there is very little that I can do. Their pain and suffering hasn't started yet, and I'd do absolutely anything to avoid it. My oldest daughter is going to spiral out of control and my wife is in denial or doesn't care. My wife and I just have a regular conversation and my oldest daughter is hiding close by so she can hear everything. She sooooooo doesn't want the family ripped apart. I just saw her kneeling by her bed and praying. I've never seen her do that. I asked her what she was doing, she said "praying for you and mommy" F^CK.

And of course, once it happens the damage is done and you can't really undo it and I am trying to avoid that pain for my daughters until my last breath.
It's mind numbing. 

My wife is so foggy right now, she is so wrapped up in her OP emotionally. I can tell. Nobody walking the planet knows this woman like I do. She is not thinking clearly at all. She is making HUGE decisions with this man's arrow right through her heart. I look at her and I wonder "How do you rationalize all of this?" She's read plenty about infidelity and exit affairs and the in's and out's and the fantasy of it all, the addiction of it, the false-ness of it, and she's been told by numerous people all the same stuff and she JUST. DOESN'T. CARE. Somehow, she has rationalized that none of this applies to her scenario. Is this mental illness? 

So this post and that quote rip away at me. I'll take ALL the blame for the marriage's failure. Whatever. Sure. Just don't hurt these kids, will you please?

We never did anything proper to fix the marriage. MC, IC, books, frank focused discussions, calling upon family members, church, retreats, Retrouvaille, NOTHING. Never not one attempt. 

And now we are going to pack up the tent without making sure this cant be salvaged? Don't we have a responsibility to these kids to try our very very best? She's hurting them far more than she can hurt me.

What about the emotional welfare of these two young girls? 10 years old and 5 years old. Dad's here all the time. Very involved in their lives. This is a tragedy unfolding in slow motion.


----------



## turnera

Unfortunately, that's almost always the norm with cheaters - they NEVER see what they are doing to the family. They ALWAYS say 'they'll be fine.' Because they NEED it to be true to be able to look in the mirror.


----------



## cbnero

jld said:


> She is a cheater, and he is a neglecter. There are consequences for both.


Neglecter? Compared to who?

I really dislike the label and feel very bad for Grid. At times was he lousy husband? How about the times he was a great husband? Where are those affirmations? Are there times you are not perfect and a lousy wife? I am curious at what point a label can be assigned and to whom one is being compared to in order for that to happen?

I would hate to be in a relationship where someone is continously keeping score. Talk about walking on egg shells. You try your best and that's all you can do. 

To me marriage is the intimacy and acceptance and forgiveness between 2 imperfect sinners. There is nothing more humbling than to have all your imperfections laid bare before another person. You trust them to accept yours and vice versa. Any person that expresses keeping score and a list of faults is someone I would lace up the running shoes for and move from as quickly as possible in the opposite direction.

Grid is hurting right now. There is no way to know all the times he was great or lousy. He never cheated or loved another. He never said he wanted a divorce or out of the marriage. So it behooves me to ask why he needs to do all the work when he is the only one committed to the marriage. Seems to me she is the one who needs to put in the time and effort and committment. 

Life is choices. She made some brutal ones. Grid and kids are paying the price now. Mrs. Grid just hasn't got the bill yet and it will be a doozy when it comes due. Can we stop putting this guy through the ringer? He is suffering enough. He admits his own faults. Stop waving it in his face. Ugh...


----------



## bfree

We all neglect our loved ones at some point. We all are bad spouses occasionally. That doesn't mean the marriage is bad. Neglecting a spouse once or twice doesn't destroy a marriage. Cheating once or twice most certainly does. Apples and oranges? No. Apples and hand grenades.


----------



## Satya

Also don't forget at the moment that she's a drug addict. She's high on the OM. No one on a high sees rationally or objectively.


----------



## farsidejunky

Grid, if you ever needed a sign that this affair is still active, it is her disregard for your kids.


----------



## gridcom

There are a few images from the last 11 weeks that are seared into the back of my eyeballs, and seeing my daughter praying on the side of her bed is one of them.


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## farsidejunky

Grid, honest question.

How long do you feasibly see yourself in Plan A?


----------



## ConanHub

You wanna snap that addict awake? 

Expose their asses.

That punk thinks it is funny because you haven't exposed him at work.

Your wife doesn't have two brain cells to rub together right now so maybe you should treat her like an idiot child and pull her dumb ass out of the quick sand.

She is either a child in need of correction and rescue or an adult in need of repercussions.

Doesn't matter to me how you want to view her but you better pick and act.

Riding your fence while she mindlessly hurts your family is a very bad choice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tom67

ConanHub said:


> You wanna snap that addict awake?
> 
> Expose their asses.
> 
> That punk thinks it is funny because you haven't exposed him at work.
> 
> Your wife doesn't have two brain cells to rub together right now so maybe you should treat her like an idiot child and pull her dumb ass out of the quick sand.
> 
> She is either a child in need of correction and rescue or an adult in need of repercussions.
> 
> Doesn't matter to me how you want to view her but you better pick and act.
> 
> Riding your fence while she mindlessly hurts your family is a very bad choice.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree::iagree:
It's Rambo time.


----------



## gridcom

farsidejunky said:


> Grid, honest question.
> 
> How long do you feasibly see yourself in Plan A?


I've got to brush up on Plan A. I am not following any plan. I'm just going with my gut, my heart, my instincts, and my intuition. 

And documenting it for you all. And if it works, you can give it a name. Call it the "This is Horsesh^t" Plan


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## tom67

gridcom said:


> I've got to brush up on Plan A. I am not following any plan. I'm just going with my gut, my heart, my instincts, and my intuition.
> 
> And documenting it for you all. And if it works, you can give it a name. Call it the "This is Horsesh^t" Plan


Time to do a general Sherman on his arse.
Or like the 1976 movie Network "I'm as mad as [email protected] and I'm not going to take it anymore"


----------



## cbnero

gridcom said:


> I've got to brush up on Plan A. I am not following any plan. I'm just going with my gut, my heart, my instincts, and my intuition.
> 
> And documenting it for you all. And if it works, you can give it a name. Call it the "This is Horsesh^t" Plan


That's called the Shotgun Approach. You may get one or two hits along with a bunch of misses. Not a good plan. Time for a surgical approach with real, measurable results.

Why would she respect you when you don't respect yourself? She didn't give a $hit about you or your daughter while sleeping with another man. And the consequence was?

The only consequence to her actions so far is you saying, "If you do this again, there will be threats of more consequences." Get to 50k feet and step back and look at your situation. You are in a fog right now too. We are trying to help you see through it.

Nuke her affair. Stand up for yourself and daughter. Put up boundaries with real consequences. Be a man and lead.


----------



## truster

gridcom said:


> So this post and that quote rip away at me. I'll take ALL the blame for the marriage's failure. Whatever. Sure. Just don't hurt these kids, will you please?


You've got a good heart. But you've got a terrible strategy. Although your intentions are as pure as the driven snow, they can't accomplish anything on their own. You need to make smart choices. Go read around and see how many people niced their way back into the marriage while allowing their spouse to continue the affair secretly. Spoiler alert: None. You need a new strategy. Heck, you just need *a* strategy other than winging it with your heart.

Try the 180, or try Plan A. Just try something that's worked for someone, somewhere, and stick to it. Generally you are going to need to find some satisfaction outside of your wife, build your self-esteem, and show your newfound strength. And you are going to have to expose. I know your heart says not to push her, but look at what works at what doesn't for everyone else in your situation. Do you want to fix the marriage, or do you want to have the best of intentions while failing miserably?

Also, does it matter to you whether the affair is still going? If that's at all important to you, you owe it to yourself to find out.. because I think there's a very good chance she is. If not, fine, but I have to wonder if you *really* don't care, because you're already crushed from the 'only one time' story.

Sorry to be harsh.. it's not a lack of respect for you, it's just that the truths in this situation are going to be what you don't want to hear.


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## cbnero

Liars and cheaters will hide in the shadows as long as someone allows it. If you love her you would put her in the spotlight with this work affair. Otherwise she will always be able to hide from the truth and that is partly your fault because you enabled it.

Make a fist. Now punch yourself right between the intersection of your legs. Those are called testicles and they serve multiple purposes.


----------



## Thundarr

gridcom said:


> There are a few images from the last 11 weeks that are seared into the back of my eyeballs, and seeing my daughter praying on the side of her bed is one of them.


You want your kids to have both parents but really the goal is for them to have both parents showing them what a healthy relationship looks like. Your relationship isn't healthy now so they're seeing bad things. They will see if you make weak choices in their name (in vain). It seems like an untouchable noble cause when it's for the kids but think this through. They will remember that dad pretended not to see what was obvious and used the excuse that is was for the kids. They'll see the fear driven choices. And they will form an opinion of you once grown based on these things they remember.


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## jld

@Wazza stayed through his wife's affair. I think he decided she would eventually outgrow it, and she did. I think that was over 20 years ago, btw. He did not want to leave the kids nor disrupt their lives.

I would not leave the kids, either. They need someone devoted to providing stability for them. This must be terrible for your daughter. I am so sorry.


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## Evinrude58

The man does have a good heart. I am without doubt that had this woman voiced her concerns in a calm manner and told him how dire the circumstances were, he would have stepped up and taken care of business. There weren't any dire circumstances. She was in need of some attention, and some loser who can't find himself a woman on his own, stepped up and took advantage of another man's woman. Grid didn't do anything wrong, he just wasn't making his likely immature wife's life exciting enough. 
Fast forward--- my opinion is the only chance he has is to absolutely go forward with no regard to his wife, like she is dead, and make a life for himself, by himself. Only her seeing him as a non- needy, self-sufficient man who can do without her will possibly start to change her mind, and even that is unlikely. I am suggesting he do something I wasn't strong enough to do myself, I know. I should have. 
He should file and put the papers in her hand and ask her to leave. (I actually did do that).... That would demand respect from her. Something she has none of right now. She doesn't even respect herself. 
There are plenty of women that would appreciate your loyalty grid. Be strong.
You can get your life back, even if you can't get your disloyal wife back. You WILL be happy again.


----------



## jld

_But, generally speaking, I'm usually a happy guy. What I need is inner strength to overcome the impusles. It's that simple but at the same time not easy at all. I think if I can learn the inner strength, either by faith or by repitition and applying techniques, coupled with just paying more attention in general, that's the battle plan right there. _

I think this is a good plan, grid. 

You said you are learning to manage your own money now, and that it is hard. It will be empowering for you, too. You are seeing now what you took for granted before. It is good to learn gratitude.

Thought change for further empowerment: When you are tempted to say, She should have come to me and clearly stated what she wanted, that would have been easier for me; change it instead to, I did not look for her attempts to let me know she was upset. I was sensitive to my own feelings, but not to hers. I need to pay better attention, and even be pro-active in assessing her needs, not passive.

I think this is common in men, btw. My husband says it is easy for him to be lazy and selfish, too, focusing on his own interests instead of paying attention to me. He will let things go until I am screaming at him, or even more serious, not talking at all, when a little foresight and pro-activity would have avoided that reaction.

Grid, you obviously have a good heart, an honest heart, or you would give in to blaming her all the time, and justifying your neglect by claiming her cheating was worse, the only thing that really mattered. You are not stuck in the mental trap of perpetual victimhood.

Just keep focusing on the steps you can take to become the stable center of the family. Put your energy into being rigorously honest with yourself, learning the skills for helpful things you took for granted before, and scrupulously avoiding the emotional immobilization of self-pity. You want to put your energy to work in positive, constructive directions, things you have complete control over, things that, regardless of outcome, will make you and your family stronger.

I'm rooting for you, grid, even as I hold your feet to the fire.

Question: When you told her to move out the other night, what was her reaction? Did you two discuss it later, when you were calmer? Did you apologize? What was her reaction?


----------



## Chaparral

The easiest thing to do is read the threads here. Its not at all difficult to see which strategies work and which ones do not.

Go back through the list and check out some of the longer ones.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

FWIW Grid,

Your current situation mirrors the time of my ex's 1st affair to a T.

Like you, I blamed myself for her affair. What did I do to cause it? 

Like you, I wanted to save my family, for my kids' sake.

Like you, I was very involved in the kids' lives. I coached their sports. I took them to their activities and appointments. From outside appearances, we were a model family.

Like you, I rugswept and didn't enforce boundaries. I was weak and codependent.

Her affair fizzled after about 9 months. The OM broke it off. She came back to me, Plan B. (And her ATM). We didn't go to MC or IC. 

Afterwards, we had a year of good times. I remember her telling my friends that she and I had a "rock solid" relationship because I had forgiven her for her affair and we had "come out stronger".

One year.

A year later, affair #2 happens. With her best friend's husband. I eventually catch on and blow it up. I'm on the verge of moving out and filing. She begs me not too. I mean *begs*. I have a soft heart like you, Grid. And I love my kids and didn't want to put them through a D. So I relent and forgive her. Again.

Almost immediately, affair #3 happens. It's possible that #2 and #3 were concurrent affairs. But whatever.

This is when I found TAM. Also, by this time, *I was miserable and lonely. *(The loneliness of living with a cheater who is involved in an affair far surpasses the loneliness of living alone.) Rock bottom, angry, desperate, devastated, all rolled into one.

TAM steered me to books and websites that helped me overcome my codependency and attachment issues(Chumplady, Shrink4men, "Codependent No More", "MMSLP"). I am a man of integrity, and it bothered me to no end that I was married to a serial cheater and pathological liar. It was embarrassing! I was better than this! And sick of feeling like this!

I went to IC. The very first question my IC asked me was "why am I tolerating a relationship like this?". Thus began the exploration into my FOO issues. Personal growth. Self-observation. 

Anyways, before this becomes a novel...fast forward to today.

I've been divorced for almost 3 years. I have a fantastic girlfriend/life partner of two years. She is an upgrade over my ex in every possible way. She's stunning to look at. She has a 7 figure net worth (she's not after my $). She has integrity (she was cheated on by her ex, too). Her kids are high achievers.

My relationship with my kids is different now, but good. I'm not involved in their lives every day any more. But, they are teenagers and have their own life. They are becoming fine young men.

Grid, you can save yourself a lot of time *and suffering *if you will listen to the folks who have actually gone through what you are experiencing. For the life of me, I can't figure out why some here feel they are qualified to give you advice when they've never experienced the pain of infidelity. But it's a forum free-for-all, so there you go.

Follow the advice of the folks who have walked the burning coals all the way to the other side.

And here's my advice for *right now*:

Go to an attorney and draw up dissolution/divorce papers. I don't want to hear this "I can't afford it" BS. Go for 50/50 custody. Present them to your cheater-wife. 

This is the only thing that is going to snap her out of this fog. It is her wake up call.

If she doesn't wake up, show remorse, and beg you to stay, then proceed with the D. Hold your head high and know you are doing the right thing.

Additionally, find a good IC. Not a co-pay collector, like I fear you have now. FOO issues should be your focus.

Don't trust your gut. You are incapable of having reliable instincts at this point in time. You have no idea what she is thinking/feeling. No. Idea.

I hope to save you some suffering. But the reality is, we all have our own path to walk. Keep posting. Keep learning. Keep growing. This is *your* life.

PS. My ex was a preacher's daughter, and had a very strict Christian up-bringing. God isn't going to save your marriage.


----------



## jld

ThreeStrikes said:


> My relationship with my kids is different now, but good. *I'm not involved in their lives every day any more.* But, they are teenagers and have their own life. They are becoming fine young men.


I think this is what he is trying to avoid. His kids are 5 and 10, remember?


----------



## ThreeStrikes

jld said:


> I think this is what he is trying to avoid. His kids are 5 and 10, remember?


That's what I told my IC when she asked why I was tolerating my relationship with my ex. I told her I didn't want to split up my family and miss out on time with my kids.

She rolled her eyes and told me point blank that staying in the relationship* was damaging to my kids*.

She was right.

My parents divorced when I was 5. Thankfully. I grew up to be a successful physician. My siblings are also successful. Divorce isn't necessarily a negative for children.

Any personal experience with infidelity, jld?


----------



## jld

ThreeStrikes said:


> That's what I told my IC when she asked why I was tolerating my relationship with my ex. I told her I didn't want to split up my family and miss out on time with my kids.
> 
> She rolled her eyes and told me point blank that staying in the relationship* was damaging to my kids*.
> 
> She was right.
> 
> My parents divorced when I was 5. Thankfully. I grew up to be a successful physician. My siblings are also successful. Divorce isn't necessarily a negative for children.
> 
> Any personal experience with infidelity, jld?


Thankfully, no infidelity in our marriage, no. And I can see why you would question my involvement here. And yet there are others here whose marriages have not, afaik, dealt with infidelity either. They just have a more palatable philosophy than mine, I guess.

Grid's marriage may end up dissolving. But I would prefer that it be his wife that makes that decision. I would like to see grid focus on correcting his mistakes, and giving her time to see those genuine improvements.

This is a woman who confessed immediately and is open enough to go to a Bible study every week. I think there is potential for healing in this marriage. And I would like to see grid lead it in a non-coercive way. I think his wife is pretty allergic to control techniques at this point.

One last thing to remember: they have no money. A divorce is going to be a lose/lose financially. And the kids will pay for that. Why would we not make every effort to avoid that?


----------



## just got it 55

jld said:


> Thankfully, no infidelity in our marriage, no. And I can see why you would question my involvement here. And yet there are others here whose marriages have not, afaik, dealt with infidelity either. They just have a more palatable philosophy than mine, I guess.
> 
> Grid's marriage may end up dissolving. But I would prefer that it be his wife that makes that decision. I would like to see grid focus on correcting his mistakes, and giving her time to see those genuine improvements.
> 
> *This is a woman who confessed immediately and is open enough to go to a Bible study every week. I think there is potential for healing in this marriage. And I would like to see grid lead it in a non-coercive way. I think his wife is pretty allergic to control techniques at this point.*
> 
> One last thing to remember: they have no money. A divorce is going to be a lose/lose financially. And the kids will pay for that. Why would we not make every effort to avoid that?


JLD I think your are going to need to have experienced betrayal of this magnitude to fully understand it.

Grids wife should not need to be controlled. She is an adult.

She should simply put* DO THE RIGHT THING* as Grid seems to be doing.

No husband or wife should feel the need or want to exert control over any issue in a marriage

55


----------



## jld

just got it 55 said:


> JLD I think your are going to need to have experienced betrayal of this magnitude to fully understand it.
> 
> Grids wife should not need to be controlled. She is an adult.
> 
> She should simply put* DO THE RIGHT THING* as Grid seems to be doing.
> 
> No husband or wife should feel the need or want to exert control over any issue in a marriage
> 
> 55


Of course she should do the right thing. And I think she will, and may even be right now. 

And grid is working on self-awareness right now. And taking some steps based on what he has realized.

She felt controlled in the marriage, iirc. I don't think she will react positively to more of the same. Just my opinion, I guess.


----------



## just got it 55

jld said:


> Of course she should do the right thing. And I think she will, and may even be right now.
> 
> And grid is working on self-awareness right now. And taking some steps based on what he has realized.
> 
> She felt controlled in the marriage, iirc. I don't think she will react positively to more of the same. Just my opinion, I guess.


Time will tell JLD

55


----------



## jld

just got it 55 said:


> Time will tell JLD
> 
> 55


Yes. But let's help make that time as positive and productive as possible for this, at this point, still intact family.


----------



## cbnero

We have people advising others here with no personal betrayal/affair/divorce experience? Wow... I had friends that got divorced but until it happened to me I never knew how naive I was. That's all I will say about it. Well maybe not. I personally wouldnt take anyone's advice that has zero experience, doesn't matter the topic.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

jld said:


> Grid's marriage may end up dissolving. But I would prefer that it be his wife that makes that decision.


Hasn't she? 

Cheated. Check

Admits to being in love with her coworker. Check

Says she doesn't want to be married to Grid. Check

Tells Grid she doesn't want him to go to a friend's wedding. You know, *as a family*. Check

Shows no remorse. Check

Jeez. The writing is on the wall.

If the money was there, she would have divorced him already.


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> Of course she should do the right thing. And I think she will, and may even be right now.
> 
> And grid is working on self-awareness right now. And taking some steps based on what he has realized.
> 
> She felt controlled in the marriage, iirc. I don't think she will react positively to more of the same. Just my opinion, I guess.


Control is an illusion.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

cbnero said:


> We have people advising others here with no personal betrayal/affair/divorce experience? Wow... I had friends that got divorced but until it happened to me I never knew how naive I was. That's all I will say about it. Well maybe not. I personally wouldnt take anyone's advice that has zero experience, doesn't matter the topic.


There are some folks here, like jld, who are very helpful with relationship problems.

Infidelity is a different animal. It's up there with substance abuse, physical abuse, and criminal activity.

It must be addressed, or the relationship issues won't even matter.


----------



## gridcom

There is a reason that this thread is in the "Divorce And Separation" forum as opposed to the Infidelity forum. The cheating is an element, and obviously a HUGE element, of a more complex story and marriage. I think some here are posting with help on how I should deal with infidelity and some here are posting on how to deal with marriage and relationships and some here are just wanting to chime in on the human condition. It's all cool with me. I am working as my own filter.

I also want to thank many of you who have sent me personal messages. I have not replied to many of them as I am trying not to spend too much time here and dont want to have multiple parallel conversations happening.

I dont think you cant treat every case of infidelity the same. The woman who cheats without regard for a long period of time or with multiple partners while their husband is a good husband who did very little to nothing wrong is a different situation than the woman who was to some tangible level mistreated by her husband, got emotionally wrapped up with a co-worker, made a poor choice, came right home and spilled it and has cut off the PA. The two are polar opposites and not the same. They dont get treated the same way.

I am choosing to believe my wife has slept with this guy only once. If it comes out later that I'd been duped, then that's what will happen and I'll be sure to let you know. Again, I am on top of it. I am head of security to my wife's vagina and I think I am doing a good job 

That said, she absolutely and without question has gone completely insane for this boy and knows it's wrong. She is fighting herself. I'm watching it. It's frustrating. It's driving me nuts. I told her yesterday that she isn't Sandy from Grease and he isn't Travolta. This isn't High School. She is a soon to be 42 year old mother of two girls who's been with the same man for almost 20 years. Take off the leather jacket and come back to real life!!!!!!!!! She hears me but there is an arrow in her heart and she needs to go in there and pull it out. It is going to take action on her part. She is paralyzed by the entire ordeal and is just not doing anything while chaos is all around her. It f^cking sucks, let me tell you. It sucks for my oldest daughter the most. How my wife can hurt this kid and add worry and stress to this young lady's heart is callus. 

I still think there is a good chance that she ends up doing the wrong thing here, and ends up making huge, impactful, irreversible (to my kids) decisions that come back to haunt her for the rest of her life. I am praying she can find her way out of this and I am TRYING to give her the space to do it. 

Another day. 11 weeks.


----------



## LongWalk

gridcom said:


> I've got to brush up on Plan A. I am not following any plan. I'm just going with my gut, my heart, my instincts, and my intuition.
> 
> And documenting it for you all. And if it works, you can give it a name. Call it the "This is Horsesh^t" Plan




Very good post. Also the note about your daughter praying is moving. You have a sense of humor and clear values. That is what you need to succeed. If you believe you are doing your best that is key.

Jld mentioned Waza allowing his wife to stay in the affair. I don't think most people would accept the idea that being a cuckold would lead one back to a healthy monogamous relationship between two people who put wedding rings on each other. However, I can see it under certain circumstances.

If a betrayed spouse told the cheater:



> I realize we are no longer in a monogamous relationship. This is painful for me but I see my fault in this. Right now you are enjoying your new fling. Being in love and having sex is fantastic. I remember when we had that, too. I am not so narcissistic that I believe I am the only man or woman in the world who can be a good husband/wife to you.
> 
> I don't know exactly what I am going to do now. I guess I am going to hang on for a bit before making any decisions. In the meanwhile, please keep the affair out of our home. Take some of your personal belongings to the copulation center and keep them there.
> 
> I will assume that you are going to continue the affair. After all it must be important since it has put our marriage – a life time commitment – into a "state of emergency". If there is something specific that I can do to meet your unmet needs and help to end the affair, let me know. I will consider it.
> 
> You can do as you like, providing you keep up your obligations as a parent. I am putting our sex life on hold to avoid confusion. Please don't lie to me about the affair. I will not contribute financially to it.


After this the betrayed spouse could just go about life as normal while getting their house in order. This would presumably take a lot of the fun out cheating. Instead of a secret pleasure the affair relationship would be normalized. The cheater could compare the affair partner with their spouse in the light of day.

The betrayed partner would then do a modified 180 to gain strength. Instead of wasting energy trying to prevent the cheating the betrayed spouse would concentrate on becoming a better person. This approach would take enormous mental toughness.

The goal of the jld strategy would ultimately still be to take responsibility. The betrayed spouse would be the sane person guarding the damaged marriage while the cheater was gorging himself at the feast of adultery. Presumably the pleasure would abate rather quickly.


----------



## gridcom

LongWalk said:


> Very good post. Also the note about your daughter praying is moving. You have a sense of humor and clear values. That is what you need to succeed. If you believe you are doing your best that is key.
> 
> Jld mentioned Waza allowing his wife to stay in the affair. I don't think most people would accept the idea that being a cuckold would lead one back to a healthy monogamous relationship between two people who put wedding rings on each other. However, I can see it under certain circumstances.
> 
> If a betrayed spouse told the cheater:
> 
> 
> 
> After this the betrayed spouse could just go about life as normal while getting their house in order. This would presumably take a lot of the fun out cheating. Instead of a secret pleasure the affair relationship would be normalized. The cheater could compare the affair partner with their spouse in the light of day.
> 
> The betrayed partner would then do a modified 180 to gain strength. Instead of wasting energy trying to prevent the cheating the betrayed spouse would concentrate on becoming a better person. This approach would take enormous mental toughness.
> 
> The goal of the jld strategy would ultimately still be to take responsibility. The betrayed spouse would be the sane person guarding the damaged marriage while the cheater was gorging himself at the feast of adultery. Presumably the pleasure would abate rather quickly.


Yeah, no. This would never fly. After all that has happened, if she cheats again, then that's that. 

Again, I am not really all that bent about her cheating once. I am actually more mad about what is happening right now. The FOG. Having to watch it. Listening to stuff fly out of her mouth and it's like "You cant be serious" She contradicts herself sometimes within the same mouthful. If it wasn't so sad, it'd be kinda funny.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Grid, so you think this guy realizes that she's pondering leaving for him and all that entails? Meaning he'll have all of her baggage which includes supporting her? 

He may not realize this, for him it might be a cheap thrill. That's a powerful weapon for you to have.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## gridcom

lifeistooshort said:


> Grid, so you think this guy realizes that she's pondering leaving for him and all that entails? Meaning he'll have all of her baggage which includes supporting her?
> 
> He may not realize this, for him it might be a cheap thrill. That's a powerful weapon for you to have.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I wouldn't be surprised if they are talking at the job and she is telling him that she is getting ready to leave me so she can go be with him. That's not to say that is what is happening for sure, but I wouldn't be surprised.

Then she comes home and has to deal with not just me, but her daughter who knows what is up and is already angry at her mother for this and then my wife just gets torn by the whole thing. She tells me they don't talk at all, but I'm not sure I believe it. I know they aren't spending time out of work together and that's really the only thing I am enforcing. If she decides to go with him, then that's the decision she'll have to live with and deal with.

I don't know much about the guy except that he is someone who didnt have an issue hooking up with a married woman with two kids and a husband she has been with for 19 years. And that's all I need to know, isn't it? That makes him a sc^mbag and an idiot.

EDIT: Worth noting I dont think my wife see's how this has affected our oldest daughter. Or rather, I dont think she wants to see it. The fog is powerful. The addiction is real.


----------



## turnera

grid, just so you know, there are two versions of Plan A from Harley. One is for the husband who has screwed up a marriage and the wife is merely unhappy. In this case, Plan A is DEFINITELY the way to go - it works! She wants him but is unhappy because of him; all she wanted was her old husband back!

The other is for the husband whose wife cheated. Harley wants you to do Plan A - fix your side of the marriage, whatever you were doing wrong, fix it. BUT...he also FIRST wants you to expose the affair to end it, so that she gets a cold slap in the face to wake her up, so that she can then wake up and SEE you fixing your side. He also wants you to NOT TOLERATE any cheating in your home. That includes monitoring to ensure she is not cheating. Basically, to show her that you are man who respects himself and will not be second choice. Now, IIRC, he tells you to do this ONLY for 6 months at most, and if nothing has changed in that time, then he wants you to move out and file. And it's been a while, but I believe he also says they can't keep working together and if she refuses to quit working with him, your marriage will not survive. YOU could be doing something on that end.

Does that help?

Now, you've refused to expose and as far as I can tell, she stopped cheating, right? So you're basically a three-legged horse - there, but not all that effective. So you make up for that in showing her your strength. By showing her that you love her, want her, but don't need her, and that if she doesn't get her head out of her ass, you will only wait so long before you give up on her. SHE NEEDS TO KNOW THAT. Above all else, she needs to know you won't wait for her to figure it out. Have you at least told her that? SHOWN her that? The single most effective way to do that at this stage, since you refused to expose and she missed out on learning the horridness of what she did, is to print out the divorce papers. You don't even have to file. Just print them out, let her see them, talk to her about them and let her see you are working your way through the paperwork to see what it would take. Just that one single act might be enough to wake her up. And if it doesn't, if she still wants her little boy toy, she'll at least remember that you are still considering divorce. It's not much, but it's a hell of a lot better than you are doing now.


----------



## turnera

lifeistooshort said:


> Grid, so you think this guy realizes that she's pondering leaving for him and all that entails? Meaning he'll have all of her baggage which includes supporting her?
> 
> He may not realize this, for him it might be a cheap thrill. That's a powerful weapon for you to have.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Have you even talked to him yet? To tell him to stay the hell away from your wife? Most cheap thrill cheaters will run for the hills if the husband shows up; she's not worth it.


----------



## ButtPunch

Grid

Don't think you are doing your kids any favors. They see you taking this abuse
and they are learning. You cannot shield your kids from life. I wish you could but
you can't.


----------



## LongWalk

Is your wife in the fog because she is still in the affair?

Are there showers at her work place?

Does she have time to go anywhere during breaks?


----------



## tom67

ButtPunch said:


> Grid
> 
> Don't think you are doing your kids any favors. They see you taking this abuse
> and they are learning. You cannot shield your kids from life. I wish you could but
> you can't.


Grid with your situation for sure there is a saying here and maybe we have not articulated this well enough but you can't "nice" her back.
Actually doing something like exposure she may respect you again.
Just sayin.


----------



## turnera

I think at this point, with her 'not cheating' but still working with the guy, the more effective thing is for him to go talk to the OM and tell him he's watching him and to back off or he'll make his life miserable. Once his wife sees the guy avoiding her, her fantasy will burst.


----------



## truster

gridcom said:


> Yeah, no. This would never fly. After all that has happened, if she cheats again, then that's that.


If this is the case, why aren't you being proactive in finding out if she's cheating again? She's not going to tell you. The information is not going to be handed to you on a silver platter. In fact, if still cheating, she will be actively working to prevent information from getting to you.

It's one thing to think "No amount of infidelity would change my mind".. that's your opinion to have. It's another to state "If she cheats again, it's over", and then close your eyes and cover your ears as the evidence of said cheating goes on all around you. You're espousing two philosophies that are direct contradiction, which is obviously going to cause you all sorts of emotional strain until the conflict is resolved. So.. are you going to resolve it?


----------



## Dycedarg

Grid,

While I haven't been able to go through every single post in this thread I have noticed a common theme in your thoughts: self-abasement. I would suggest against that kind of thinking. While it's true that you probably were not a perfect husband, odds are that you were a good husband. 

In my limited experience with these kinds of situations I've found that generally people who engage in this kind of self-blame (the authentic self-blame, not the self-pitying types who use tactics to evoke sympathy) are being too hard on themselves, or sometimes even looking to simply create some sense of all the madness, even if that means demonizing themselves. Sometimes the actions of a spouse are so reprehensible people will bend realities and reinterpret everything just so they can exonerate or understand their significant other. 

As I said before it is likely that you do have some flaws, some of them perhaps significant. But that is not the issue right now, and I can guarantee you that is not why this situation has come about. It has emerged because of the actions of your spouse. There is a time and place for you to evaluate yourself, own up to your imperfections and work on them. But those flaws in no way excuse the dishonest deeds of others.

Indeed, self-evaluation is important, and often dismissed. But please remember to distinguish- your flaws are a separate issue from hers. Yours do not cause hers any more than hers cause yours.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

gridcom said:


> I don't know much about the guy except that he is someone who didnt have an issue hooking up with a married woman with two kids and a husband she has been with for 19 years. And that's all I need to know, isn't it? That makes him a sc^mbag and an idiot.


The OM is a scumbag and an idiot. Why aren't you holding your cheater wife to the same standard as him?

After all, she's a married woman, with 2 children, hooking up with a younger man. And apparently she doesn't have an issue with it.

Do we blame the drug, or the user?

Should we blame a low-sex drive wife when her husband gets arrested for soliciting prostitution?

She we blame the sharp-tongued wife for her husband's physical abuse?

Should we blame a husband's neglect for his wife's addiction/alcoholism?

Grid, stop blaming yourself for your wife's affair. Stop blaming the OM. This is all on your wife. Every little bit of it. It's her character flaw that she needs to address, on her own.


----------



## lifeistooshort

turnera said:


> Have you even talked to him yet? To tell him to stay the hell away from your wife? Most cheap thrill cheaters will run for the hills if the husband shows up; she's not worth it.


I think this is a good idea. Why don't you tell him that if he wants her he'll be supporting her? There's a long road between taking a cheap fvck and putting together a life with someone with baggage. Also tell him about her health issues that will be all his to deal with as well as your kids when she has them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ripper

ThreeStrikes said:


> Grid, stop blaming yourself for your wife's affair. Stop blaming the OM. This is all on your wife. Every little bit of it.


OP started out looking at this wrong, but when he bought into the "women have no agency" dogma a couple of posters here peddle, things went completely off the rails.

Until the affair is done and dealt with (I believe its not) and his wife is all in to fix the marriage, none of the rest of this matters. OP is like a guy trying to stop a critically injured person from bleeding out while ignoring the fact they aren't breathing.


----------



## Chuck71

hesitationmarks said:


> That's all I think about, should I leave or should I stay. We have an 10 yo son and sold our two separate houses earlier this year and bought a house together. Things were great at first then she started checking out again, she said things will never be the same after I screwed a girl. Meanwhile she was checked out so far when I did it, what did she expect me to wait around forever. I still don't know if she got physical with the guy but he was definitely in her ear and had her butterflies. She listens to all this country music chase rice and **** in the bath every night. In a fantasy, about this guy I suppose. She keeps her walls up slightly, I believe I am a plan b for her. The guy worked under her, her younger employee. He asked to transfer from her unit because it was causing home stress for him as he has a baby momma at home with a young son together. He is still there under a new supervisor. I have no idea if she talks to him, they flirt or he is playing hard to get and that attracts her. It's a bunch of bull**** I have to live this day to day. Our sex life is okay, frequent massages and sex, she has to use a vibrator to orgasm. I guess I want more affection from her, warm and cuddle but I get none of that. I don't know what to do.


Did you ever re read your thread? It's ALL there


----------



## LongWalk

I believe Gridcom did confront OM by text or email and OM told him to buzz off.

This a very straightforward assessment of the situation:


> I wouldn't be surprised if they are talking at the job and she is telling him that she is getting ready to leave me so she can go be with him. That's not to say that is what is happening for sure, but I wouldn't be surprised.


Right now, Gridcom, you can track your wife via her phone. But she is well aware of this. She can put her phone in a desk drawer and go anywhere and you'll be none the wiser. She may have a burner phone somewhere.

Who does the laundry? If her panties are crusty, you know that she may be having sex at work during breaks. Horny people are very inventive.

I am not writing this to make you feel bad. Think positively about yourself and your future. Your wife is currently not supporting you as a wife should. The danger that she is going to walk away is real. Therefore, you must be ready to accept this. You have to be so strong that she will stop and do a double take. Remember that you have one trump card, right now she takes you for granted. Once she feels that you are prepared to move on and flourish, she will compare you and OM.

Do you play a musical instrument? Your daughter?

Remember Black Francis of the Pixies discovered that the band could not replace Kim Deal. He did not appreciate her. Your wife doesn't appreciate you. Get yourself a Kim Deal T-shirt and start your daughter on the bass if she doesn't yet have an instrument.

Store up funny jokes and tell them to yourself when everything seem glum. If a smile crosses your face, your wife will wonder why. She'll want to be in on it.


----------



## SadSamIAm

gridcom said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if they are talking at the job and she is telling him that she is getting ready to leave me so she can go be with him. That's not to say that is what is happening for sure, but I wouldn't be surprised.
> 
> Then she comes home and has to deal with not just me, but her daughter who knows what is up and is already angry at her mother for this and then my wife just gets torn by the whole thing. She tells me they don't talk at all, but I'm not sure I believe it. I know they aren't spending time out of work together and that's really the only thing I am enforcing. If she decides to go with him, then that's the decision she'll have to live with and deal with.
> 
> I don't know much about the guy except that he is someone who didnt have an issue hooking up with a married woman with two kids and a husband she has been with for 19 years. And that's all I need to know, isn't it? That makes him a sc^mbag and an idiot.
> 
> EDIT: Worth noting I dont think my wife see's how this has affected our oldest daughter. Or rather, I dont think she wants to see it. The fog is powerful. The addiction is real.


I also see your wife talking to him at work. Trying to persuade him into a relationship that he probably doesn't want. Part of the persuasion will most likely be sex. Showing him over and over again what he could have if he makes a commitment.

I know you think they aren't seeing each other outside of work. Many things have happened during breaks and lunch and even during regular work hours. Don't kid yourself, they can find a way.


----------



## turnera

Texting your wife's OM? Hardly good for anything but a laugh around the OM's shower room.


----------



## Thundarr

turnera said:


> I think at this point, with her 'not cheating' but still working with the guy, the more effective thing is for him to go talk to the OM and tell him he's watching him and to back off or he'll make his life miserable. Once his wife sees the guy avoiding her, her fantasy will burst.


It's a calculated risk. OM will have the opportunity to tell Grid's wife that Grid threatened him. Some guys preying on married women love this because they can tell their AP that she's too important and they just can't stop thinking about her even if it's dangerous. In other words it's like setting up the perfect fitness test for the POS guy. I'm more of a fan of exposing things. The solution is for Grid's wife of OM to switch jobs. The other solution is divorce.


----------



## gridcom

thundarr said:


> the solution is for grid's wife of om to switch jobs. The other solution is divorce.


booooooom


----------



## Thundarr

Thundarr said:


> The solution is for Grid's wife or OM to switch jobs. The other solution is divorce.
> 
> 
> gridcom said:
> 
> 
> 
> booooooom
Click to expand...

I faced this situation in 1994. There was no internet and no TAM to let me know about NC or "180" but we just innately understand that NC is not negotiable for a valid reconciliation. She and I didn't reconcile because she kept her job so I filed papers and thank god for it. She's been a cheating train wreck for everyone she's been with since and I met my current wife in 1996 who just has better character than my ex. Sometimes it's not complicated even when it's difficult.


----------



## cbnero

You comment how your wife is acting like an irresponsible teenager. OK so look at it like you just gave your kid a credit card. The kid lies about spending to you and blows the limit. As the responsible adult would you first have a discussion and tell the kid it isn't okay? Giving him/her a chance to realize the errors and come clean?

What if you do that and your kid tells you she doesn't care about lying, isn't remorseful, blames you for her betrayal, and says F you I'm outta here but by the way you keep paying my bills. What would your response be then? Extend her credit limit? Cause that's what you just did with your lying wayward wife. Do you think your kid would respect you? Do you think your wife will respect that action?


----------



## LongWalk

What kind of job is it? Is she at some sort of call center? Is it a manufacturing job? What sort of satisfaction does she find in the work itself?

Has she ever admitted that the job itself is a trigger for her since it is the place where she fell in love? Leaving the job absolutely would break her away from an environment that she associates with the strongest of emotions.

Is she happy to go to work?

Her willingness to sign up for Retrouvaille is a sign that she is at least trying.

Are you having an easier time concentrating on work?


----------



## tpdallas

Is it worse when the WS is in an affair with a single person?


----------



## bfree

LongWalk said:


> What kind of job is it? Is she at some sort of call center? Is it a manufacturing job? What sort of satisfaction does she find in the work itself?
> 
> Has she ever admitted that the job itself is a trigger for her since it is the place where she fell in love? Leaving the job absolutely would break her away from an environment that she associates with the strongest of emotions.
> 
> Is she happy to go to work?
> 
> Her willingness to sign up for Retrouvaille is a sign that she is at least trying.
> 
> Are you having an easier time concentrating on work?


WS's, especially women, think that even when an affair is over they can still be friends with their AP. In her foggy mindset she's banking on Retrouvaille to give her the okay to stay at her job and remain friends with the OM. Whatever happens Grid needs to stick to his guns on this if he wants even the slightest chance she comes out of her fog and salvages the marriage. Every day they remain in contact (i.e. she is at that job) is another nail in the marriage's coffin. Of course if Grid exposed then she'd probably want to leave that job anyway because she'd be too embarrassed to stay there.


----------



## jld

Iirc, she manages a group of young people. Someone said it is likely they all know about the affair anyway.

Grid and his wife are maxed out on their credit cards. If she loses her job and they divorce, won't her not working be even worse financially for him?

Grid, could you answer my question from yesterday, please? How did she respond when you told her to move out?


----------



## LongWalk

When did Grid tell her to move out? Missed that.


----------



## jld

After he threw up on the side of his house.

Those sorts of emotional statements, while understandable, surely do not inspire her trust.


----------



## jld

Someone commented, I think to me, about women not having agency. Of course women have agency. Men have it, too, though it often seems like they are considered helpless victims of all-powerful women when it comes to cheating.


----------



## Dycedarg

tpdallas said:


> Is it worse when the WS is in an affair with a single person?


I don't think so. In fact, and I want to be careful how I say this, but I believe that the overwhelming majority of the blame goes to the cheating spouse, not the person with whom they're cheating. 

I don't know that I'd go so far as to say that the other man or other woman is totally free of any guilt, but I'd have to say that they have no responsibility to the couple.


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> Someone commented, I think to me, about women not having agency. Of course women have agency. Men have it, too, though it often seems like they are considered helpless victims of all-powerful women when it comes to cheating.


Jld, your post really hurt me.

Please do not make condescending remarks like this. You're better than that. Infidelity is emasculating for men. It destroys us; mind, body and soul. And unlike most women most men do not have a support system to help them deal with things, at least with topics such as infidelity. We feel alone and broken. At least that's how I felt, just like an all powerful woman was crushing me under her heel. I realize you haven't dealt with infidelity directly (thank God) but have a little compassion for those who have.


----------



## jld

bfree said:


> Jld, your post really hurt me.
> 
> Please do not make condescending remarks like this. You're better than that. Infidelity is emasculating for men. It destroys us; mind, body and soul. And unlike most women most men do not have a support system to help them deal with things, at least with topics such as infidelity. We feel alone and broken. At least that's how I felt, just like an all powerful woman was crushing me under her heel. I realize you haven't dealt with infidelity directly (thank God) but have a little compassion for those who have.


I am sorry you felt hurt. That was not my intention.

My intention is to empower men to take charge of their lives by realizing when they are giving their power to women, and then not do it.

If I felt like I had no power, like I were completely at the mercy of an all-powerful force, I would feel trapped and desperate. I would not like it at all. And I would be really grateful to hear that there was an alternate way of viewing things, a way that could give me back a sense of power in my own life.

And that is what I am trying to do here.

Does that make sense?


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> I am sorry you felt hurt. That was not my intention.
> 
> My intention is to empower men to take charge of their lives by realizing when they are giving their power to women, and then not do it.
> 
> If I felt like I had no power, like I were completely at the mercy of an all-powerful force, I would feel trapped and desperate. I would not like it at all. And I would be really grateful to hear that there was an alternate way of viewing things, a way that could give me back a sense of power in my own life.
> 
> And that is what I am trying to do here.
> 
> Does that make sense?


I understand and I for one love how you bring an alternative viewpoint to the table. But sometimes your posts can come off as insensitive. Of course that may be why you and the "hang em high" crowd are so divisive even though you are on opposite sides of the fence. Two sides of the same coin I suppose.


----------



## LongWalk

I think it's good to have jld's point of view. 

When Grid suffered a meltdown when he could not track his WW one the cell phone that was a weak moment because he himself could not pinpoint what was wrong. His insecurity blew up like a grenade without any positive effect.

Why doesn't his wife leave? Are the reasons purely economic?


----------



## jld

bfree said:


> I understand and I for one love how you bring an alternative viewpoint to the table. But sometimes your posts can come off as insensitive. Of course that may be why you and the "hang em high" crowd are so divisive even though you are on opposite sides of the fence. Two sides of the same coin I suppose.


I think what the "hang em high" crowd and I have in common is a desire to wake folks up to a sense of their own power. We know people do not have to feel crushed under anyone's heel. We want to see you not feel that way, to not feel that powerlessness. To use your phrase, we know you are better than that. And we try, in our respective ways, to help you see that.

If I knew people in person going through this, believe me, they would get a hug and handholding and lots of warmth from me. How painful to feel betrayed, by the person we trust most in the world. 

But I ask you, if I only offered sympathy, would I really be helping them? Or just helping keep them stuck?

Why would I not share what I think could heal them?


----------



## jld

LongWalk said:


> I think it's good to have jld's point of view.
> 
> When Grid suffered a meltdown when he could not track his WW one the cell phone that was a weak moment because he himself could not pinpoint what was wrong. His insecurity blew up like a grenade without any positive effect.
> 
> Why doesn't his wife leave? Are the reasons purely economic?


I think she wants to give him a chance to repair things. If she wanted to leave, she would have just left.

I am trying to help him make the most of his time and opportunity.


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> I think what the "hang em high" crowd and I have in common is a desire to wake folks up to a sense of their own power. We know people do not have to feel crushed under anyone's heel. We want to see you not feel that way, to not feel that powerlessness. To use your phrase, we know you are better than that. And we try, in our respective ways, to help you see that.
> 
> If I knew people in person going through this, believe me, they would get a hug and handholding and lots of warmth from me. How painful to feel betrayed, by the person we trust most in the world.
> 
> But I ask you, if I only offered sympathy, would I really be helping them? Or just helping keep them stuck?
> 
> Why would I not share what I think could heal them?


I totally understand trying to wake up a BS since most of them are in their own fog. But can't we be encouraging without attaching the blame to them for the worst thing that has ever happened to them. Regardless of how bad a spouse is/was they have no responsibility for the infidelity. Cheaters cheat because they choose to. There are people in terrible marriages who do not cheat. There are people who are in great marriages that do. The one that is betrayed is in an immense amount of pain. I would hope not to add to that pain if it is at all possible. Does a BS need to work on themselves? Absolutely! Do they need to take back power. Yes! But not power in the marriage. They need to take back power over their own lives. Can't we offer advice and encouragement to a betrayed person to help them recover and heal without assigning any blame to them?


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> I think she wants to give him a chance to repair things. If she wanted to leave, she would have just left.
> 
> I am trying to help him make the most of his time and opportunity.


I'm not sure she is giving him a chance. I think she's just stalling hoping that it will blow over. I'm not getting the feeling that she is willing to do the necessary work to help him heal from her betrayal. To me it seems as if she'd rather bypass that whole little problem and go straight to dealing with their martial issues. But that won't work.


----------



## eastsouth2000

gridcom said:


> We are in such a sensitive spot right now. I am so concerned with my children's emotional well being. I don't think my wife is at all concerned with where they land emotionally (or financially) in all of this. My kids and I interact and they are currently fine, great in fact. I look at them and it just rips away at me knowing how much they are going to be hurt by all of this and there is very little that I can do. Their pain and suffering hasn't started yet, and I'd do absolutely anything to avoid it. My oldest daughter is going to spiral out of control and my wife is in denial or doesn't care. My wife and I just have a regular conversation and my oldest daughter is hiding close by so she can hear everything. She sooooooo doesn't want the family ripped apart. * I just saw her kneeling by her bed and praying.* I've never seen her do that. I asked her what she was doing, she said "praying for you and mommy" F^CK.


this makes me so sad. :crying:

Pray with your daughter.
If possible find counseling for them. and find counseling how you can care for them in these situations
Do what you must to protect them from all of this.

what ever happens promise to stand as a united front when caring for the children.

que song "Kelly Clarkson - Because Of You"


----------



## jld

bfree said:


> I totally understand trying to wake up a BS since most of them are in their own fog. But can't we be encouraging without attaching the blame to them for the worst thing that has ever happened to them. Regardless of how bad a spouse is/was they have no responsibility for the infidelity. Cheaters cheat because they choose to. There are people in terrible marriages who do not cheat. There are people who are in great marriages that do. The one that is betrayed is in an immense amount of pain. I would hope not to add to that pain if it is at all possible. Does a BS need to work on themselves? Absolutely! Do they need to take back power. Yes! But not power in the marriage. They need to take back power over their own lives. Can't we offer advice and encouragement to a betrayed person to help them recover and heal without assigning any blame to them?


I hear your pain, bfree. I hear the emotion in your voice. I am guessing the feeling of blame is overwhelming? Could we look at how we might see it differently?

I think what others term "blame", I term opportunity to exercise agency. If I caused a problem, I can fix it. If I said hurtful words to my husband, I can go and apologize, and make a plan for what to do next time I get frustrated. That is a way for me to use my power constructively.

Often, nearly always, actually, I have reason when I am upset with Dug. He would be the first to admit that he procrastinates, does not put great effort into projects that are not his own idea, etc. He would tell you that if he would be more responsible, I would not get upset. And if I would not trust him to take care of things in the first place, I would not end up saying hurtful words, because I would have just done things myself. So we each have the opportunity to avoid conflict by taking responsibility.

The cheater will always have the cheating on their conscience, bfree. It is a mark that cannot be removed. Sometimes, kindness and gentleness and understanding, as well as undeniable honesty as to what happened, can move a sinner to greater accountability than punishment. _It hurts more to disappoint someone who we feel truly loves and cares for us than someone who feels self-righteous and judgmental of us._


----------



## jld

bfree said:


> I'm not sure she is giving him a chance. I think she's just stalling hoping that it will blow over. I'm not getting the feeling that she is willing to do the necessary work to help him heal from her betrayal. To me it seems as if she'd rather bypass that whole little problem and go straight to dealing with their martial issues. But that won't work.


I think it is risky for him to expect her to help him heal, at least initially. He is likely to be disappointed, which could further delay his healing.

It takes all a man's emotional energy, I am sure, but I think it is more empowering for him to be the first to take steps to repair the marriage after a wife's affair.


----------



## LongWalk

From an SI thread



> After 20 months of "R" it just occurred to me that I have been training and conditioning my WW. I've been molding her-against her will much of the time, to be the WS I want her to be. I have been pulling her puppet strings and she just tells me what I want, and don't want to hear.
> She is very disciplined and has mastered her ability to keep her mouth shut, but I have found that she has just taken her gripes about R, about being a Wayward, about my conditions for R, her gripes about how long I'm taking to get over it, how controlling I've become since D-Day, her gripes about SI and how self righteous it is, how I'm being brainwashed, drinking the SI cool-aid and how she is demonized by SI, her gripes about her loss of privacy and trust, my hyper-vigilance, and her gripes about my inquiry into post-nups and polygraphs a year ago. She has just simply taken all these gripes underground.
> 
> Here I thought, after all of her reading, she understood that these are all a normal and natural symptomology of trauma of betrayal. But no, she regards them as a mal-adjustment, a sign that I will never get over it.
> 
> She knows better than to gripe to my face about these things "because you'll trigger", and has continued to vent and rant in her private journals, to her IC's and to her BF. She plays the victim who will forever be punished(she's been using that line since a month after D-Day)
> 
> She has put up an excellent remorseful WS façade, but underneath she thinks it's all a ridiculous drama fest, wallowing, pain shopping, bunch of BS she just has to endure-not understand, not relate to, sympathize or empathize with, just endure.
> 
> She has only done what I have asked her to do-nothing more. Nothing proactive. Nothing that will cost her much. No real sacrifices. No recompense.
> 
> She believes that going to IC, maintaining NC, and being superficially transparent is all it takes.
> 
> Is she a remorseless sock puppet, or is being properly remorseful a learned skill?? Is empathy really something that you can train an adult? I feel like I am sweeping so much **** under the rug. Should I be patient and allow IC to school her. She certainly doesn't seem to buy anything I'm selling.


----------



## bfree

Jld, I can only speak for myself and my situation but it was only when I totally let go of all blame for my wife's infidelity that I could start to heal. It was then that drug and alcohol abuse counseling finally took. Your thought process makes total sense until you live it and then it's counterproductive at best and destructive in the extreme, like in my case. And quite frankly if you listen to former WS's who have been on these forums they don't even consider the people they are betraying. They never enter the cheaters mind until after consequences have been felt and the fog has lifted. Displaying gentleness to a WS during and immediately after an affair is just showing weakness and the feeling evoked is not love but disgust. They might stay with their BS for a short time but it's not from a place of remorse. Rather it might be out of some sense of guilt or memories of loyalty once shared.


----------



## jld

LW, I think your repost illustrates the risk of using the control techniques the "hang em high" crowd preaches. Control techniques do not necessarily reach the heart. And the heart is what you want to reach.


----------



## jld

bfree said:


> Jld, I can only speak for myself and my situation but it was only when I totally let go of all blame for my wife's infidelity that I could start to heal. It was then that drug and alcohol abuse counseling finally took. Your thought process makes total sense until you live it and then it's counterproductive at best and destructive in the extreme, like in my case. And quite frankly if you listen to former WS's who have been on these forums they don't even consider the people they are betraying. They never enter the cheaters mind until after consequences have been felt and the fog has lifted. Displaying gentleness to a WS during and immediately after an affair is just showing weakness and the feeling evoked is not love but disgust. They might stay with their BS for a short time but it's not from a place of remorse. Rather it might be out of some sense of guilt or memories of loyalty once shared.



Bfree, I would like to say this gently and respectfully, and sincerely: When I read your posts, and I will admit I have only read a few, I don't get the feeling you have healed.

Please feel free to enlighten me.


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> Bfree, I would like to say this gently and respectfully, and sincerely: When I read your posts, and I will admit I have only read a few, I don't get the feeling you have healed.
> 
> Please feel free to enlighten me.


Well, in way you are correct. You never fully heal from such a massive betrayal. I am forever changed. In many ways stronger and wiser but in some ways I'm as weak as I was then. My faith in God has never been stronger. I live a conscious life and I know myself better and learn more each and every day. But the scars remain and serve as a reminder to humanities weaknesses and my own.


----------



## gridcom

Remember when I complained about some of the songs my wife was posting on that radio station request hour? Well, it turns out that she follows her AP on Spotify and he posts songs in a playlist. She is his ONLY follower, by the way. The songs Cactus by The Pixies he posted and the very next day she went and asked for it to be requested on the radio station listener request hour. This was 2 weeks ago. Go check the lyrics to that song for my point to be driven home.

We share a Spotify account and I did some looking and found she followed him and all of his songs, including 3 he posted in the last 24 hours, are all heavy duty "I miss you, I will wait for you" songs. She admitted that she checks this playlist "but there is NOTHING more I swear!!!" Every thing I find out I find out on my own, and when I do she denies at first but I slowly reveal that I know more than she thinks and basically I allow her to lie first. She lied to me this morning right to my face. I have had it with this nonsense. She is cake eating. She is using me as a father to the kids and as an ATM to keep the bills paid. Everything else emotionally she is giving to him. 

I told her to quit her job and recommit to the marriage in full or move out. If she decides to end the marriage, not only is she the biggest idiot walking the planet, but she will destroy my kids. Unfortunately, I think this is her preference. That said, I am ready for it.


----------



## convert

ConanHub said:


> *You wanna snap that addict awake?
> 
> Expose their asses.*
> 
> *That punk thinks it is funny because you haven't exposed him at work*.
> 
> Your wife doesn't have two brain cells to rub together right now so maybe you should treat her like an idiot child and pull her dumb ass out of the quick sand.
> 
> She is either a child in need of correction and rescue or an adult in need of repercussions.
> 
> Doesn't matter to me how you want to view her but you better pick and act.
> 
> Riding your fence while she mindlessly hurts your family is a very bad choice.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Agreed:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## tom67

I told her to quit her job and recommit to the marriage in full or move out.
Good.
Sounds like you have finally had enough.
Take care.


----------



## jld

gridcom said:


> I told her to quit her job and recommit to the marriage in full or move out. If she decides to end the marriage, not only is she the biggest idiot walking the planet, but she will destroy my kids. Unfortunately, I think this is her preference. That said, I am ready for it.


When did you say this? The other night, after you threw up? Or more recently?

I have to say, you sound defensive, grid. Defensiveness does not show inner strength.


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> When did you say this? The other night, after you threw up? Or more recently?
> 
> I have to say, you sound defensive, grid. Defensiveness does not show inner strength.


I don't think he sounds defensive at all. To me he sounds strong, resolute. He didn't tell her to get out. He stated his needs and boundaries and his actions should they be ignored. Well done!


----------



## gridcom

jld said:


> When did you say this? The other night, after you threw up? Or more recently?
> 
> I have to say, you sound defensive, grid. Defensiveness does not show inner strength.


I said this this morning. She thinks that the marriage can be saved, and we can work towards reconciliation, while at the same time she keeps the job. She has been telling me this for the last several days when we talk. But, clearly, finding this stuff out underscores the point in *BOLD* that this marriage cannot survive with her and him working together. 

I doubt this is the only way the are communicating, but it's the only way I know of. He posts songs to a playlist and she goes to the playlist and likely reads the lyrics.

In the last 24 hours:

Pixies- Letters To Memphis
Cat Power- Sea Of Love (cover)
Yeah Yeah Yeahs - Let Me Know

This is his way of telling her he is waiting. And when she posts these songs onto the request hour, that's communciation, is it not? 

This has to stop, does it not?


----------



## cbnero

Congrats on waking up and seeing through the smoke screen. The relationship advice is great when both parties are committed with no involvement from outside parties.

You are dealing with a completely different animal here. I think you realize that now.

Your next steps will be crucial. Formulate a plan of action and stick with it. 180, 180, 180! It is difficult to do. Disengage immediately! Stop talking to her about the marriage/affair/ divorce until you have your plan in place. Don't keep her in the loop. She will say what she thinks you want to hear but meanwhile her actions will prove otherwise. Don't be a fool!


----------



## bfree

gridcom said:


> I said this this morning. She thinks that the marriage can be saved, and we can work towards reconciliation, while at the same time she keeps the job. She has been telling me this for the last several days when we talk. But, clearly, finding this stuff out underscores the point in *BOLD* that this marriage cannot survive with her and him working together.
> 
> I doubt this is the only way the are communicating, but it's the only way I know of. He posts songs to a playlist and she goes to the playlist and likely reads the lyrics.
> 
> In the last 24 hours:
> 
> Pixies- Letters To Memphis
> Cat Power- Sea Of Love (cover)
> Yeah Yeah Yeahs - Let Me Know
> 
> This is his way of telling her he is waiting. And when she posts these songs onto the request hour, that's communciation, is it not?
> 
> This has to stop, does it not?


You are spot on correct! I suspect they are still communicating in other ways also but it really doesn't matter. As long as she is still emotionally attached to him she cannot be emotionally attached to you. She cannot work there. She gave up the right to keep her job and her marriage when she broke her vows. Now she has to choose if you decide to give her that option.


----------



## dubsey

Walk up to her, grab her hands lovingly, tell her you love her, but you're aware she's already made her choice. You're done looking for ways that she's choosing him over you. Tell her it's time to move out, and you wish her the best of luck. You hope it was worth it. Give her a kiss on the forehead, and walk away.


----------



## cbnero

dubsey said:


> Walk up to her, grab her hands lovingly, tell her you love her, but you're aware she's already made her choice. You're done looking for ways that she's choosing him over you. Tell her it's time to move out, and you wish her the best of luck. You hope it was worth it. Give her a kiss on the forehead, and walk away.



Do This!!! Spot on. Lovingly detach and let her go.


----------



## cbnero

One other note: once you successfully disengage, she may start talking about working it out. Please others prep him for this. Having gone through a False R it is extremely painful and even more damaging.

You need to be resolute and unwavering going forward. This is crucial.


----------



## LongWalk

OM is cunning, using good musicians to articulate the depth of his love.

If your wife is not hooking up with OM at work, she is at least saving herself for him.

This idea of letting go lovingly is a nice movie scene but it's not really going have the effect one might imagine.

Cat Power is great. Saw her live once. Still, she has not been so happy in her personal life.


> When Marshall was working as a waitress in Atlanta her boyfriend died, causing her to have a breakdown. She says this, coupled with the prevalence of heroin use amongst her friends and the loss of her best friend to AIDS, was the impetus for her moving to New York. *Her boyfriend in New York helped her get a job in a restaurant, but she realised he was having an affair with the owner, a married woman with two children*.[28]
> 
> In 2001 Marshall was romantically involved with a runway model, Daniel (Cury), who was seven years younger. He left her in 2003 at a time when she was drinking heavily and abusing other drugs. Marshall referred to him as “the ex-love of my life”.[66]
> 
> According to an interview in January 2011, Marshall was in a relationship with actor Giovanni Ribisi from 2006 and lived with Ribisi and his 14-year-old daughter in Los Angeles.[64] In June 2012, it was reported that Marshall was no longer in a relationship with Ribisi.


----------



## jld

gridcom said:


> I said this this morning. She thinks that the marriage can be saved, and we can work towards reconciliation, while at the same time she keeps the job. She has been telling me this for the last several days when we talk. But, clearly, finding this stuff out underscores the point in *BOLD* that this marriage cannot survive with her and him working together.
> 
> I doubt this is the only way the are communicating, but it's the only way I know of. He posts songs to a playlist and she goes to the playlist and likely reads the lyrics.
> 
> In the last 24 hours:
> 
> Pixies- Letters To Memphis
> Cat Power- Sea Of Love (cover)
> Yeah Yeah Yeahs - Let Me Know
> 
> This is his way of telling her he is waiting. And when she posts these songs onto the request hour, that's communciation, is it not?
> 
> This has to stop, does it not?


Oh, dear. I am sorry to hear this. How painful for you.

I would have preferred for there to be a calm and loving but clear conversation about the consequences of continuing contact with him. It is true that sometimes dropping a brick in front of someone can shock them out of their fog, but I would prefer they see it on their own and make a free will, heartfelt choice to recommit.

It is risky to be too harsh with someone who really is not thinking clearly. I want you to truly get her heart, and not just the outward compliance that LW's post illustrated. Does that make sense?


----------



## naiveonedave

jld said:


> Oh, dear. I am sorry to hear this. How painful for you.
> 
> I would have preferred for there to be a calm and loving but clear conversation about the consequences of continuing contact with him. It is true that sometimes dropping a brick in front of someone can shock them out of their fog, but I would prefer they see it on their own and make a free will, heartfelt choice to recommit.
> 
> It is risky to be too harsh with someone who really is not thinking clearly. I want you to truly get her heart, and not just the outward compliance that LW's post illustrated. Does that make sense?


How is he supposed to do that, when the OM has her 8 hrs a day at work, setting her up with ego boosts like song lyrics? 

I think you are a good person JLD, but your advice is going to destroy Grid.


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> I told her to quit her job and recommit to the marriage in full or move out. If she decides to end the marriage, not only is she the biggest idiot walking the planet, but she will destroy my kids. .



Grid

This simply isn't true. Your kids will recover. A divorce is no more damaging than having both parents in a fu*ked mess like you have got. Your dream for your kids to have two parents who love each other is now gone. Your WW messed it up not you. All you can do is accept your new reality and start the divorce and healing process and try to get your kids into counseling.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

LongWalk said:


> OM is cunning, using good musicians to articulate the depth of his love.


Naw, I'm going to disagree. This part is his wife being cunning. She is all up for marriage counseling, working at reconciliation and then communicates through playlist songs. My teenage daughters do the song list dedication stuff, not my boys.



Sorry, my gender bias is showing.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> Oh, dear. I am sorry to hear this. How painful for you.
> 
> I would have preferred for there to be a calm and loving but clear conversation about the consequences of continuing contact with him. It is true that sometimes dropping a brick in front of someone can shock them out of their fog, but I would prefer they see it on their own and make a free will, heartfelt choice to recommit.
> 
> It is risky to be too harsh with someone who really is not thinking clearly. I want you to truly get her heart, and not just the outward compliance that LW's post illustrated. Does that make sense?


He isn't dropping a brick on anybody. He is only accepting reality. His wife is in love with someone else. Your advice is just the worst I have ever seen on TAM....in my opinion of course.


----------



## manfromlamancha

gridcom, this is too painful to observe from afar.

You are simply NOT dealing with the truth you know. And here it is:



She is in love with the POSOM. She cannot be in love with two men at the same time. Therefore SHE IS NOT IN LOVE WITH YOU.


They still work together and communicate quite freely. She is still under his spell (you already have acknowledged that).


This one is important: SHE IS GETTING PROGRESSIVELY BETTER AT LYING TO YOU!


The fact that she does not care about the damage to the kids means that she is NOT COMING BACK.


She wants the status quo to continue with you paying the bills until she is ready to leave you (and SHE WILL LEAVE YOU - make no mistake about this).


All this [email protected] about holding her hand and telling her you love her is A WASTE OF TIME and will make you weaker (notice, I did not say will make you look weak - I said it will make you weak).


Luckily, her behaviour is very predictable and obvious to some of us that have been there. Take advantage of this collective wisdom.


Snap out of this before you do any more damage to yourself and your kids by your procrastination. She is a lying, deceitful and disrespectful cheat. When the time comes, she will go for the jugular in a divorce battle. Be prepared and proactive - act now.

When are you going to do what you know needs to be done. Save yourself and your kids well being. What are you waiting for???


----------



## ButtPunch

Grid

Have you looked into the codependency books. I think they will
be a starting point on your path to recovery.


----------



## Lostinthought61

perhaps you need to tell her, "i want to give you what you want, its clear to me that this is not over, go to him, leave me, and the children, i will stop you, and you will not return as my wife. so pack up and leave, and don't look back we will not be watching you." and then file....what you are doing is continuing a slow and painful death, she refuses to be held accountable , she refuses to do the heavy lifting, to leave the work place. she does not have you and the kids in her best interest, she has him, she is denying him and playing martyr....as if she is doing you a favor. those are favors you don't need.


----------



## jld

naiveonedave said:


> How is he supposed to do that, when the OM has her 8 hrs a day at work, setting her up with ego boosts like song lyrics?
> 
> I think you are a good person JLD, but your advice is going to destroy Grid.


Well, we will have to see her response. 

My concern, Dave, is that he may get what LW's example illustrated: outward compliance, but not her heart. And her heart is what is needed for a successful reconciliation.

Again, just so sorry, grid.


----------



## naiveonedave

jld said:


> Well, we will have to see her response.
> 
> My concern, Dave, is that he may get what LW's example illustrated: outward compliance, but not her heart. And her heart is what is needed for a successful reconciliation.
> 
> Again, just so sorry, grid.


he is not even getting compliance, so he will never get to her heart. She is too far gone for that....


----------



## jld

Okay, thinking about it, going to be honest here. Dug would expose at a job I had if I had an affair. He would be loving at home, but I am sure he would take some dramatic steps, too. 

But he would not divorce me. Exposing would really be just to snap me out of the fog, get my head on straight before I destroyed _myself._ He would remain committed to the best for me, which would _not _be going with some kid ten years younger.

And he would definitely confront an OM, though I am not recommending that, grid. You don't need any possible legal trouble.


----------



## jld

naiveonedave said:


> he is not even getting compliance, so he will never get to her heart. She is too far gone for that....


Every act of compassion, of understanding, of genuine caring and selflessness builds trust, Dave. I truly believe that. It make take time to reap the rewards, and maybe sometimes they will not go to us, but I think truly loving acts never really go to waste.


----------



## naiveonedave

jld said:


> Every act of compassion, of understanding, of genuine caring and selflessness builds trust, Dave. I truly believe that. It make take time to reap the rewards, and maybe sometimes they will not go to us, but I think truly loving acts never really go to waste.


When in an affair, grid's wife is not perceiving these as acts of love, but as interference to her affair. They actually pi$$ her off.


----------



## ButtPunch

naiveonedave said:


> When in an affair, grid's wife is not perceiving these as acts of love, but as interference to her affair. They actually pi$$ her off.


One step further....they make him look weak, needy and pathetic. Attraction killer.

Sad thing is Grid just wants to keep his family together but Grid can't do it alone.


----------



## jld

naiveonedave said:


> When in an affair, grid's wife is not perceiving these as acts of love, but as interference to her affair. They actually pi$$ her off.


What specifically do you see as acts of love? His insisting she quit her job? His efforts to change the way he interacts with her (more considerate, respectful)?

Folks, reconciliation is not going to work without the comfort that his arms are loving and his motives pure. This cannot be about anger and revenge in any way.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Grid, I think telling her to quit and commit or move out was a great move. For sure you caused a lot of marital issues and you've owned that, but she's acting like a teenage idiot. I agree that she's in our out.

Now if she quits and commits her road could still be rocky and she won't necessarily be warm and fuzzy but it would be a big start.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> What specifically do you see as acts of love? His insisting she quit her job? His efforts to change the way he interacts with her (more considerate, respectful)?
> 
> Folks, reconciliation is not going to work without the comfort that his arms are loving and his motives pure. This cannot be about anger and revenge in any way.


This is no reconciliation. Like you said this is just lip service and her heart is elsewhere.


----------



## naiveonedave

jld said:


> What specifically do you see as acts of love? His insisting she quit her job? His efforts to change the way he interacts with her (more considerate, respectful)?
> 
> Folks, reconciliation is not going to work without the comfort that his arms are loving and his motives pure. This cannot be about anger and revenge in any way.


He is the one fighting, but you can't win with a spouse who is checked out. Anything he does to save the marriage, she sees as pathetic at best.


----------



## truster

gridcom said:


> Remember when I complained about some of the songs my wife was posting on that radio station request hour? Well, it turns out that she follows her AP on Spotify and he posts songs in a playlist. She is his ONLY follower, by the way. The songs Cactus by The Pixies he posted and the very next day she went and asked for it to be requested on the radio station listener request hour. This was 2 weeks ago. Go check the lyrics to that song for my point to be driven home.
> 
> We share a Spotify account and I did some looking and found she followed him and all of his songs, including 3 he posted in the last 24 hours, are all heavy duty "I miss you, I will wait for you" songs. She admitted that she checks this playlist "but there is NOTHING more I swear!!!" Every thing I find out I find out on my own, and when I do she denies at first but I slowly reveal that I know more than she thinks and basically I allow her to lie first. She lied to me this morning right to my face. I have had it with this nonsense. She is cake eating. She is using me as a father to the kids and as an ATM to keep the bills paid. Everything else emotionally she is giving to him.
> 
> I told her to quit her job and recommit to the marriage in full or move out. If she decides to end the marriage, not only is she the biggest idiot walking the planet, but she will destroy my kids. Unfortunately, I think this is her preference. That said, I am ready for it.


Good for you!! You're starting to get proactive in gathering the kind of information you need to make a fully-considered decision on what's best for yourself. 

If you're going to keep it up, I recommend checking out the Standard Evidence Post and keeping it to yourself so that she spends less effort hiding whast you want to find. Maybe you've got enough to be resolute, but in my situation I found more information (to a point) helped steel my resolve during those times where I wanted to get introspective and start blaming myself. And those times will happen.. I started more resolute than you (although my STBXW's indiscretions were much worse), but even I had moments of self-doubt. It's normal and healthy to check yourself for faults. It helps to keep track of the scope of what they did somewhere, and refer to it in these times to say "Oh yeah, what was I thinking, seeing all this at once it's obvious again that this was unacceptable and not my fault".


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> This is no reconciliation. Like you said this is just lip service and her heart is elsewhere.


Look at the whole quote, not what you took out of context.


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> Well, we will have to see her response.
> 
> My concern, Dave, is that he may get what LW's example illustrated: outward compliance, but not her heart. And her heart is what is needed for a successful reconciliation.
> 
> Again, just so sorry, grid.


I'm probably somewhat jaded but I don't subscribe to this romanticized version of relationships. The brain is where all the "love chemicals" reside. The heart follows the mind and it is the mind he needs to reach first, not the heart. We are not animals blindly following some mammalian mating instincts. We can think. We can reason. Grid's wife is fogged up, not lobotomized.


----------



## jld

lifeistooshort said:


> Grid, I think telling her to quit and commit or move out was a great move. For sure you caused a lot of marital issues and you've owned that, but she's acting like a teenage idiot. I agree that she's in our out.
> 
> Now if she quits and commits her road could still be rocky and she won't necessarily be warm and fuzzy but it would be a big start.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Life, do you think this was a better choice than going to her work and telling HR? Giving her a choice is more respectful, less controlling?


----------



## truster

jld said:


> Oh, dear. I am sorry to hear this. How painful for you.
> 
> I would have preferred for there to be a calm and loving but clear conversation about the consequences of continuing contact with him. It is true that sometimes dropping a brick in front of someone can shock them out of their fog, but I would prefer they see it on their own and make a free will, heartfelt choice to recommit.
> 
> It is risky to be too harsh with someone who really is not thinking clearly. I want you to truly get her heart, and not just the outward compliance that LW's post illustrated. Does that make sense?


I think this might likely reflect what would work for you, but you also (thankfully) don't have the mind of a cheater :smile2: I think it's a different thought process, requiring a different approach than what would work for a healthy marriage. And I would further reference the many, many threads here, where the ratio of "nice 'em back" successes is pretty dismal compared to the "set boundaries/expose/180" successes. Not to mention they both seem to pale to the ratio of failures for both approaches, where cheaters are just too far lost.


----------



## jld

bfree said:


> I'm probably somewhat jaded but I don't subscribe to this romanticized version of relationships. The brain is where all the "love chemicals" reside. The heart follows the mind and it is the mind he needs to reach first, not the heart. We are not animals blindly following some mammalian mating instincts. We can think. We can reason. Grid's wife is fired up, not lobotomized.


If this wakes her up, and she comes home to a changed man, in time her heart may be moved. I just don't want it to be the way LW's example showed.

Did anyone read LW's example? No one is worried about empty outward compliance?


----------



## happy as a clam

Oh my effing heavens...

I cannot bare to read this thread any longer.

Grid... best of luck to you.


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> Okay, thinking about it, going to be honest here. Dug would expose at a job I had if I had an affair. He would be loving at home, but I am sure he would take some dramatic steps, too.
> 
> But he would not divorce me. Exposing would really be just to snap me out of the fog, get my head on straight before I destroyed _myself._ He would remain committed to the best for me, which would _not _be going with some kid ten years younger.
> 
> And he would definitely confront an OM, though I am not recommending that, grid. You don't need any possible legal trouble.


Okay now you're getting it. I don't think grid wants to divorce either. Let's say Dug did expose at work and you still refused to quit the job and end affair. What would Dug do next? He doesn't seem like the type to sit back on his laurels and give up.


----------



## jld

truster said:


> I think this might likely reflect what would work for you, but you also (thankfully) don't have the mind of a cheater :smile2: I think it's a different thought process, requiring a different approach than what would work for a healthy marriage. And I would further reference the many, many threads here, where the ratio of "nice 'em back" successes is pretty dismal compared to the "set boundaries/expose/180" successes. Not to mention they both seem to pale to the ratio of failures for both approaches, where cheaters are just too far lost.


Where are all the successes?

MB is reported to have many, but TAM?

Aren't TAM "successes" more along the lines of LW's example, where the WW conforms outwardly, at least for a period of time, but who knows where her heart truly is?


----------



## jld

bfree said:


> Okay now you're getting it. I don't think grid wants to divorce either. Let's say Dug did expose at work and you still refused to quit the job and end affair. What would Dug do next? He doesn't seem like the type to sit back on his laurels and give up.


You get fired at work when you are having an affair with a fellow employee, right? So I would have no job and be totally dependent on him.

You know, when I wrote that post, all I could think was how much trouble I would be in if I ever did that. Yikes.

He would be working on his side, though, too. He would be nice to me, reaching out, making it easy for me to come to him, correcting his past actions, nurturing me. He knows my heart. He knows how hurt I would have to be to ever cheat on him. He would make things different after that. It would be a wake up call for him, too.


----------



## truster

jld said:


> Where are all the successes?
> 
> MB is reported to have many, but TAM?
> 
> Aren't TAM "successes" more along the lines of LW's example, where the WW conforms outwardly, at least for a period of time, but who knows where her heart truly is?


That's why I said both types of successes seem to pale in number to the failures. From my (limited) reading, a Reconciliation pie chart would be 75% 'Failure' with 23% 'Success? ... Let's see if they're back in 12 months' and 2% 'Success'. And of those "successes", it seems like maybe 5% could be "nice 'em back" successes.

Granted, it's a self-selecting sample and that could skew the data, and my memory is biased, but.. from the limited data we have, it definitely seems to skew against 'nice em back'.


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> You get fired at work when you are having an affair with a fellow employee, right? So I would have no job and be totally dependent on him.
> 
> You know, when I wrote that post, all I could think was how much trouble I would be in if I ever did that. Yikes.
> 
> He would be working on his side, though, too. He would be nice to me, reaching out, making it easy for me to come to him, correcting his past actions, nurturing me. He knows my heart. He knows how hurt I would have to be to ever cheat on him. He would make things different after that. It would be a wake up call for him, too.


Sadly unless the affair is between a supervisor and a subordinate the company generally doesn't do much more than possibly write them both up and usually not even that. Exposure at work isn't to get her fired. It's to shed light on a disgusting behavior. It's to make the affair partners uncomfortable. It's to (hopefully) break up the fog and the affair so that the couple can turn toward each other for support and save the marriage. So what would Dug do if you refused to quit the job and continued to have contact with your lover? Are you suggesting he would not do anything? He'd let you continue to destroy yourself, your marriage and your children? I don't know him as well as you do but I highly doubt he'd just stand by and watch the destruction of those he loves.


----------



## lifeistooshort

jld said:


> Life, do you think this was a better choice than going to her work and telling HR? Giving her a choice is more respectful, less controlling?


I think going to her job and telling HR is much more controlling and deprives her off agency. Telling her that she's either in or out is simply laying out boundaries that he can live with. 

He's taken much responsibility for this situation, which I happen to think is appropriate. But I don't think he has to sit back and suck it up while she lies about contact with this guy and acts like a lovesick teenager while letting grid pay her bills. 

I do not think it's appropriate for him to demand she be on her knees like some here do because of the events leading up to this. However, he is not now obligated, because of his past poor treatment of her, to pay her bills and suck it up while she plays footsies with some d0uchebag.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

bfree said:


> Sadly unless the affair is between a supervisor and a subordinate the company generally doesn't do much more than possibly write them both up and usually not even that. Exposure at work isn't to get her fired. It's to shed light on a disgusting behavior. It's to make the affair partners uncomfortable. It's to (hopefully) break up the fog and the affair so that the couple can turn toward each other for support and save the marriage. So what would Dug do if you refused to quit the job and continued to have contact with your lover? Are you suggesting he would not do anything? He'd let you continue to destroy yourself, your marriage and your children? I don't know him as well as you do but I highly doubt he'd just stand by and watch the destruction of those he loves.


No, he would not let me destroy myself. I just cannot see him giving up on me, though. I just cannot see him ever divorcing me. 

I guess if I decided to divorce him, he would have to accept it, though. I can't see him remarrying, though. He really loves me. And he loves our kids. 

I think he would just devote himself to them, and wait for me to come to my senses. And again, he would work hard to correct what made me vulnerable in the first place.


----------



## Evinrude58

jld said:


> No, he would not let me destroy myself. I just cannot see him giving up on me, though. I just cannot see him ever divorcing me.
> 
> I guess if I decided to divorce him, he would have to accept it, though. I can't see him remarrying, though. He really loves me. And he loves our kids.
> 
> I think he would just devote himself to them, and wait for me to come to my senses. And again, he would work hard to correct what made me vulnerable in the first place.


My opinion: If you cheated and told your husband you no longer loved him and wanted a divorce, he'd do just like grid is going to have to do--- he'd divorce you and move on *because he had no other choice*. All this "he loves me and our kids stuff, and I love him, etc." is all out the freaking window when one of you falls for another person and thinks you love THEM. What you and he feel now is irrelevant to what happens after/during an affair. That's a whole new ball game.


----------



## jld

Evinrude58 said:


> My opinion: If you cheated and told your husband you no longer loved him and wanted a divorce, he'd do just like grid is going to have to do--- he'd divorce you and move on *because he had no other choice*. All this "he loves me and our kids stuff, and I love him, etc." is all out the freaking window when one of you falls for another person and thinks you love THEM. What you and he feel now is irrelevant to what happens after/during an affair. That's a whole new ball game.


Could be. Glad not to know for sure!

But Dug defines himself as "a Catholic man." I just can't see him remarrying. 

He told me once that even if I died, he would not remarry. We have five kids, and he said they would need him. He says that if you have a wife, you need to spend time with her. And that, for him, would conflict with what our kids would need from him with me gone.


----------



## ButtPunch

Nobody knows what they will do until they live it.


----------



## gridcom

lifeistooshort said:


> I think going to her job and telling HR is much more controlling and deprives her off agency. Telling her that she's either in or out is simply laying out boundaries that he can live with.
> 
> He's taken much responsibility for this situation, which I happen to think is appropriate. But I don't think he has to sit back and suck it up while she lies about contact with this guy and acts like a lovesick teenager while letting grid pay her bills.
> 
> I do not think it's appropriate for him to demand she be on her knees like some here do because of the events leading up to this. However, he is not now obligated, because of his past poor treatment of her, to pay her bills and suck it up while she plays footsies with some d0uchebag.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I love this, Lifeistooshort. This is how I feel. I actually described what she is doing today as "footsies".

I am not going to "expose" her at her job. Most of the people at her job already know about it and secondly, she wouldnt get fired and neither would he. Plus, I agree that by doing so is more controlling.

We spoke this morning, again, and she just doesnt get it. She STILL, 11 weeks in, has yet to put numbers down to see that she couldnt keep that job anyway should we separate. She is in complete denial about it. The reason that she hasn't taken 15 minutes to do it is because it's going to reincforce what I've been saying all along, which is MAKE AN ATTEMPT TO FIX YOUR MARRIAGE.

She had this week started making small moves towards doing just that, but this latest little discovery (and it is little, yet of large significance) just underscores the point that this marriage has NO chance while she works there. I will not bend on this. She either quits the job or quits on me.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Can we get back to Grid, please?

Grid, serve her with D papers to get her attention. 

How long do you want to suffer?


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Have you set a date that she must quit by?


----------



## lifeistooshort

gridcom said:


> I love this, Lifeistooshort. This is how I feel. I actually described what she is doing today as "footsies".
> 
> I am not going to "expose" her at her job. Most of the people at her job already know about it and secondly, she wouldnt get fired and neither would he. Plus, I agree that by doing so is more controlling.
> 
> We spoke this morning, again, and she just doesnt get it. She STILL, 11 weeks in, has yet to put numbers down to see that she couldnt keep that job anyway should we separate. She is in complete denial about it. The reason that she hasn't taken 15 minutes to do it is because it's going to reincforce what I've been saying all along, which is MAKE AN ATTEMPT TO FIX YOUR MARRIAGE.
> 
> She had this week started making small moves towards doing just that, but this latest little discovery (and it is little, yet of large significance) just underscores the point that this marriage has NO chance while she works there. I will not bend on this. She either quits the job or quits on me.



Yeah, footsies would seem to be appropriate wouldn't it?

Why don't you contact the guy and tell him you'll be filing for divorce and she's now holis problem to support. Stop trying to explain finances..... you're not her father. And tell him that you expect your kids to be treated well when they have them. 

Call this guy's bluff and see how serious he is about her. She could well be a cheap piece to him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gridcom

ThreeStrikes said:


> Have you set a date that she must quit by?


No hard deadline. She isnt going to move out anyway, no matter what. Her kids will be ripped to shreds (more so than if I moved out) and she has nowhere to go, literally. Plus, legally I cant toss her out. It was more metaphorical. Time to make a hard choice or we go to a mediator and we divide up what little we have. i am asking her first to do the numbers. I asked her to take some time, write all that it takes to run this house, then what of my income she would think is fair based on the fact that I cant be living in a ditch.

Honestly, I am ready to move on if I have to deal with this crazy person. I am trying my best, and she thinks she can tip toe around what seemingly to me is obvious.

Did we have martial issues that were mainly me being emotionally abusive? YES
Were they EVER addressed in any constructive way in order to fix them? NO
Are we still highly compatible? YES
Do we owe it to our children to try our best and give our best efforts to fix this marriage? OF COURSE
Has she done that? NO
Is it partially to some tangible level because she has some other guy in her heart, clouding her common sense? OF COURSE

We brought children into this world. They didnt ask to be brought into this world to have two idiotic parents who, upon discovery of an affair, wont even mutually attempt to at least see if the marriage can be resuscitated. 

It's outrageous. 

It's one thing to move along at a snails pace and be in limbo while she procrastinates in doing any real hard work

It's another to discover she is still reaching out to him (and him to her).

I am not afraid for me. I am afraid for my kids. But, if she is going to keep her affair goggles on and use extremely poor judgement, then so be it.

Once the house is void of my stuff, and once she goes through 6 weeks of 9-5 work and it starts to physically wear her down (and she understands that this is her life now, for the next X number of years), once she realizes she only gets the kids 50% of the time and within that 50% she is going to be working her a$$ off or sleeping to recover or keeping up with the house, and MOST IMPORTANTLY once the kids keep badgering her about why this happened and why their lives suck because of it, THEN she'll finally realize what a terrible mistake she made.


----------



## bfree

gridcom said:


> I love this, Lifeistooshort. This is how I feel. I actually described what she is doing today as "footsies".
> 
> I am not going to "expose" her at her job. Most of the people at her job already know about it and secondly, she wouldnt get fired and neither would he. Plus, I agree that by doing so is more controlling.
> 
> We spoke this morning, again, and she just doesnt get it. She STILL, 11 weeks in, has yet to put numbers down to see that she couldnt keep that job anyway should we separate. She is in complete denial about it. The reason that she hasn't taken 15 minutes to do it is because it's going to reincforce what I've been saying all along, which is MAKE AN ATTEMPT TO FIX YOUR MARRIAGE.
> 
> She had this week started making small moves towards doing just that, but this latest little discovery (and it is little, yet of large significance) just underscores the point that this marriage has NO chance while she works there. I will not bend on this. She either quits the job or quits on me.


Grid, you're doing everything you can as far as I can see. Hold to your boundaries and pray that your wife comes out of her fog. The last card I can think for you to play is to file for divorce. That might be your last gasp to wake her up to reality. Just remember you can stop it whenever you choose. Filing doesn't mean it will actually happen. That said I truly hope it doesn't come to that.


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## jld

Are you open to reconciliation at that point, grid? 

Or do you think your heart is hardening?


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## ThreeStrikes

gridcom said:


> i am asking her first to do the numbers. I asked her to take some time, write all that it takes to run this house, then what of my income she would think is fair based on the fact that I cant be living in a ditch.


Holy crap. You're the man of the house. Start acting like it.

*You* come up with the numbers. Figure it out. This isn't rocket science.

No date set to find a new job?

Asking your cheater wife to come up with financial numbers for your eventual D?

Sigh......

Best of luck, grid. I'm out.


----------



## gridcom

jld said:


> Are you open to reconciliation at that point, grid?
> 
> Or do you think your heart is hardening?


Of course I am open to reconciliation, no question about it. I love the sh^t out of her, but enough is enough now.

I am OK with separation too. My kids will be devastated. Devastated in ways they cant imagine. Not only will they lose me in the way they are used to having me, but they will lose their mom, too, in the way they are used to having her.


----------



## truster

gridcom said:


> No hard deadline. She isnt going to move out anyway, no matter what. Her kids will be ripped to shreds (more so than if I moved out) and she has nowhere to go, literally. Plus, legally I cant toss her out. It was more metaphorical. Time to make a hard choice or we go to a mediator and we divide up what little we have. i am asking her first to do the numbers. I asked her to take some time, write all that it takes to run this house, then what of my income she would think is fair based on the fact that I cant be living in a ditch.


You're taking positive steps, man. However, don't trust her to do the numbers. If she'll cheat your love, she'll DEFINITELY cheat your money. After my recent D filing, I took over all financials (I was fine with her doing them before, since she's good at it and had more time due to not working), and of course found that money was being grossly misappropriated. Should've been obvious to me, but those early days after D-Day you still really can't wrap your head around what an untrustworthy snake your WS has become until it's right there on paper in front of you.


----------



## farsidejunky

Grid:

Your wife will continue down her current course until she sees she has the potential to lose you.

File for divorce, initiate the 180 and limit all talk to her about kids only. The time to show her compassion is on hold...for now.

Your wife broke no contact. Show her through your actions that she cannot continue to be with you and him at the same time.


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## jld

gridcom said:


> Once the house is void of my stuff, and once she goes through 6 weeks of 9-5 work and it starts to physically wear her down (and she understands that this is her life now, for the next X number of years), once she realizes she only gets the kids 50% of the time and within that 50% she is going to be working her a$$ off or sleeping to recover or keeping up with the house, and MOST IMPORTANTLY once the kids keep badgering her about why this happened and why their lives suck because of it, THEN she'll finally realize what a terrible mistake she made.


I think that is what grid is trying to accomplish with the above, @farsidejunky. Do you not think it is enough?


----------



## gridcom

I agreed to go to a mediator. I dont need nor can we afford a messy expensive divorce. I will go to the mediator with her if that is her choice. Right now, I really don't have it in me to tolerate anymore. She is cake eating. Using me as the dad and the ATM, and her emotions and all of her energy is elsewhere. I'm over it.


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## farsidejunky

I don't.

Just like any addict, shielding them from consequences and protecting them from hitting bottom effectively delays healing from beginning.

The choice is effectively to prolong the addiction to shield the family, which leads to drawn out pain, or allow her to hit bottom, which leads to the addiction having a better chance of being recognized by her, which is sharp pain at first, then progression to healing.

There is nothing at this point that he can do to shield his girls from the actions of his wife. There is pain for them in any choice he makes.


----------



## jld

Idk, but it does not seem like she is seeking grid out much anyway. 

I think you are wise to go the mediator route, grid, if it comes to that.

I think you mentioned possibly living with your parents for a time? That could save some money, too, until a final direction is decided on.

I feel so sorry for your kids. They are so young. I really hope Retrouvaille, if you guys can hold on til Nov., can be a turning point.


----------



## truster

jld said:


> I think you mentioned possibly living with your parents for a time? That could save some money, too, until a final direction is decided on.


If this is true, don't leave the marital home before discussing thoroughly with a lawyer. That can be used against you in court when it comes to custody and other issues.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> Idk, but it does not seem like she is seeking grid out much anyway.
> 
> I think you are wise to go the mediator route, grid, if it comes to that.
> 
> I think you mentioned possibly living with your parents for a time? That could save some money, too, until a final direction is decided on.
> 
> I feel so sorry for your kids. They are so young. I really hope Retrouvaille, if you guys can hold on til Nov., can be a turning point.


Retrouvaille will not see them if there is still active infidelity going on. The pre conference interview will screen them out.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Retrouvaille will not see them if there is still active infidelity going on. The pre conference interview will screen them out.


Good point, far.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> I think that is what grid is trying to accomplish with the above, @farsidejunky. Do you not think it is enough?


JLD

I think this is Grid going from one form of control to another. Neither are likely to work although I prefer the latter.


----------



## Evinrude58

ButtPunch said:


> JLD
> 
> I think this is Grid going from one form of control to another. Neither are likely to work although I prefer the latter.



I don't think the man is trying to "control" her other than trying to control her cheating. If she would stop cheating and return to the marriage, I'm sure he'd let her do whatever she darned well pleases. 
The person that is being controlled is Grid. She controls his emotions by cheating on him and telling him she doesn't love him. She controls how he spends his money by having him pay the bills. She will still have control over him after the divorce via their children.
Someone has to be the leader of the family, and usually that should be the husband. Is that being controlling? 
I don't know what to think anymore, but I do know that most decent men just want to work, take care of their family, receive a little affection from their wife, and go to bed happy. They aren't into being "controlling". That seems to be a phrase used and abused by women that didn't want to perform their role in the marriage and decided to look elsewhere. 
JMO


----------



## farsidejunky

She does not control his emotions. Nobody controls anyone's emotions but their own. Yes, what she did was and is crappy. But Grid is CHOOSING to try to make this work.

It really is not that complicated. It is hard, but not complicated.


----------



## jld

Evinrude58 said:


> I don't think the man is trying to "control" her other than trying to control her cheating. If she would stop cheating and return to the marriage, I'm sure he'd let her do whatever she darned well pleases.
> The person that is being controlled is Grid. She controls his emotions by cheating on him and telling him she doesn't love him. She controls how he spends his money by having him pay the bills. She will still have control over him after the divorce via their children.
> Someone has to be the leader of the family, and usually that should be the husband. Is that being controlling?
> I don't know what to think anymore, but I do know that most decent men just want to work, take care of their family, receive a little affection from their wife, and go to bed happy. They aren't into being "controlling". That seems to be a phrase used and abused by women that didn't want to perform their role in the marriage and decided to look elsewhere.
> JMO


I think this is a little bit unfair, and puts grid in the victim chair, where no self-respecting person wants to be.

Grid and his wife made choices that brought them to where they are today. These are not the days of a wife meekly being grateful for whatever her husband provides. Most wives now expect to feel respected and valued in the marriage. Grid's wife did not feel valued and respected, and the whole family is paying the price for her vulnerability.

Grid's wife is going to regret this someday. She is going to pay the price with her daughters, at least the older girl. She may never forgive her mother. But she may not let her father entirely off the hook, either.

Idk, grid. I understand the desire to set boundaries and enforce them. But man, you have no money. Your kids are going to pay a big price for the decisions you and your wife have made.

I keep thinking of Wazza and how he basically waited out his wife's affair. It may have lasted a few years, not sure. But he got to see his kids every day. Did not have to leave his home. No expensive legal processes. But a lot of swallowing of pride. A lot of emotional pain. For him, his kids were worth it.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> I think this is a little bit unfair, and puts grid in the victim chair, where no self-respecting person wants to be.
> 
> Grid and his wife made choices that brought them to where they are today. These are not the days of a wife meekly being grateful for whatever her husband provides. Most wives now expect to feel respected and valued in the marriage. Grid's wife did not feel valued and respected, and the whole family is paying the price for her vulnerability.
> 
> Grid's wife is going to regret this someday. She is going to pay the price with her daughters, at least the older girl. She may never forgive her mother. But she may not let her father entirely off the hook, either.
> 
> Idk, grid. I understand the desire to set boundaries and enforce them. But man, you have no money. Your kids are going to pay a big price for the decisions you and your wife have made.
> 
> I keep thinking of Wazza and how he basically waited out his wife's affair. It may have lasted a few years, not sure. But he got to see his kids every day. Did not have to leave his home. No expensive legal processes. But a lot of swallowing of pride. A lot of emotional pain. For him, his kids were worth it.


Absolutely right on the victim chair stuff.

As for Wazza waiting an affair out, I would not wish that upon anyone. I wonder if he would advise his kids to do the same if they found themselves in similar circumstances.


----------



## naiveonedave

jld said:


> I keep thinking of Wazza and how he basically waited out his wife's affair. It may have lasted a few years, not sure. But he got to see his kids every day. Did not have to leave his home. No expensive legal processes. But a lot of swallowing of pride. A lot of emotional pain. For him, his kids were worth it.


I can't imagine suggesting anyone go through what he did.


----------



## LongWalk

Grid,

I believe you can save your marriage. The text from Surviving Infidelity that I pasted, the one that jld liked ultimately ended in divorce. The couple could not close the gap. Some succeed, some fail. I think you are on the way to getting the ball over the plate. It's up to her to hit it.

OM doesn't seem to be a real threat. If he had had $237,000 in liquid assets and he said to your wife, "Babe, come and help me spend this money" she would have gone. I don't mean that your wife is mercenary or cheap, but rather that if he were willing to protect her with his wad of cash, she would take that as security.

Right now he doesn't even dare to drive by and pick her up to go on a date. His sex ranking has probably plunged. Your wife is more in love with being in love. Her Retrouvaille offer is simply her logical brain giving the lizard a reason to act. However, you wife is undecided. She does feel that your marriage is failure in many respects. 

Nonetheless, she knows that you love her. That has some value even if she is not sure what. She should quit the job but that decision should come from her. The really brazen cheaters, especially the BDP/NPD type would be disappearing after midnight and ignoring their children. Your wife is only in love. She's at least partly trying to be responsible.

Don't yell at her. Don't argue. Don't reveal anymore of what you learn about the affair. Be polite, kind and not a doormat. When she looks at you, she should wonder why you are not hassling and controlling. She is waiting for it. Don't give her that attention. Act a close to normal as possible. Stop being needy. Do nothing that makes you look weak. So far she has not really confronted the idea that you could not want her anymore. 

You need to make her laugh from time to time.

Ask her with a straight face if she got an email, telling her to check for your name on the shley Madisön dump. When her eyes get wide just laugh and say I am only kidding. Give her gentle punch in the shoulder.

Or maybe buy one of these.

Don't tell your wife that you will all laugh and love again. Do it.

There was one TAM poster whose beautiful wife cheated on him with a garden gnome. He came to TAM and made everybody laugh until in the end his WW popped up on his thread and started telling jokes. They went to therapy ever after and didn't bother with divorce.

If your wife can't laugh and is determined to chuck a good thing in the fire, all you can do is laugh.

Get yourself a Cat Power of Pixies T-shirt. And smile. I saw the Pixies live, for free with my teenage daughter. Buy couple of tickets to one of these bands and give them to your wife. Tell her that if OM doesn't want to go, you know a guy who'll happily tag along.

The sooner your wife sees that you are going to survive without her and you are not going take pills everyday to prevent suicidal depression, she's going to take a new look at you.


----------



## ButtPunch

Evinrude58 said:


> I don't think the man is trying to "control" her other than trying to control her cheating. If she would stop cheating and return to the marriage, I'm sure he'd let her do whatever she darned well pleases.
> The person that is being controlled is Grid. She controls his emotions by cheating on him and telling him she doesn't love him. She controls how he spends his money by having him pay the bills. She will still have control over him after the divorce via their children.
> Someone has to be the leader of the family, and usually that should be the husband. Is that being controlling?
> I don't know what to think anymore, but I do know that most decent men just want to work, take care of their family, receive a little affection from their wife, and go to bed happy. They aren't into being "controlling". That seems to be a phrase used and abused by women that didn't want to perform their role in the marriage and decided to look elsewhere.
> JMO


Codependence is about control. He needs to let go and learn to live. 
At first OP is trying to "nice" her back now he is going to take a hard stand so she can "SEE THE ERROR OF HER WAYS". 

OP needs to take the focus off of his cheating wife and implement the 180 not to get his wife back but to put the focus back on what he can control himself. His attention should be centered on himself and his two girls. The hell with her. This is the path to healing.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Absolutely right on the victim chair stuff.
> 
> As for Wazza waiting an affair out, I would not wish that upon anyone. I wonder if he would advise his kids to do the same if they found themselves in similar circumstances.


That is a good question, far.


----------



## jld

naiveonedave said:


> I can't imagine suggesting anyone go through what he did.


But they are happy together now, thirty plus years into the marriage. No legal bills, kids had the benefit of an intact family and their parents' pooled money.

Dave, I realize it takes a lot of patience and humility to go that route. But in some ways it may be easier and simpler, too.


----------



## Chaparral

If this hasn't been suggested before, put your own list of cheating songs on their song list.


----------



## jld

Chaparral said:


> If this hasn't been suggested before, put your own list of cheating songs on their song list.


Okay, that's funny.


----------



## LongWalk

jld,

One thing that Grid has tried to do is convince his wife that divorce will cast them into economic misery. He has gone over the number with her and she blocks it out. She is in denial. That stubbornness of hers is a so called shyte test. He is damned if he goes for a economically destructive divorce and damned if he stays put and accepts being married to a teenage girl in love with someone else.

Can'tThingStraight tried to reconcile with a wife who put her knee in his back when he was down. He tried too hard to save his marriage and everything got way worse.


----------



## jld

LongWalk said:


> jld,
> 
> One thing that Grid has tried to do is convince his wife that divorce will cast them into economic misery. He has gone over the number with her and she blocks it out. She is in denial. That stubbornness of hers is a so called shyte test. He is damned if he goes for a economically destructive divorce and damned if he stays put and accepts being married to a teenage girl in love with someone else.
> 
> Can'tThingStraight tried to reconcile with a wife who put her knee in his back when he was down. He tried too hard to save his marriage and everything got way worse.


She is going to have to face the financial music at some point, maybe soon. It sounds like they are used to living in debt. If they divorce, she will take half that debt with her.

I would not stay with a man who lived beyond our means. That would be a dealbreaker for me.

It seems like both grid and his wife have some growing up to do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lifeistooshort

Also grid, don't get too melodramatic about how badly your kids will be destroyed. While divorce is never optimal if two parents can find a way to live in relative peace and harmony your kids can get through it if you're strong for them. Mine got through my divorce just fine because I was strong, never trashed their dad, and provided them with constant security. I believe that much of the damage from a divorce comes from the fact that kids crave security as they are basically helpless and divorce threatens their security. Particularly when mom or dad or both are acting like jerkoffs.

Sit your daughter down and tell her that you guys are going through a tough time and you're going to do everything you can to fix it but no matter what happens she will be ok because you'll make sure of it. Likely part of the reason she's such a wreck is because you're a wreck and she looks to you to see how bad things are.

I remember when my 14 year old son broke him arm when he was 7. He fell on it and bent it; I remember when he got up and I saw it I had to take a deep breath. I've never been one to panic but I had to pause when I saw it; he look at me with his lip quivering and said "mommy, is my arm broken?". He was looking to me to see how bad it was.....I took a breath and calmly told him that yes it was broken but it would be ok and we were going to get it fixed. He let out his breath and never cried; I got him ice and had him call his dad on the way to the hospital (we were already divorced) to tell him about it. I had to let my son know that it would be ok and I was there for him and you need to do the same for your daughter. Whatever you do absolutely do not cause your daughter more anxiety to guilt trip your wife; that is a disservice to your daughter. I know you won't do it purposely but it will happen if you allow yourself to be a wreck because she'll sense it. If daddy can' handle it how is a helpless little girl supposed to handle it? Let her know that all will be ok no matter what happens and she will be taken care of, and you'll always be her daddy.


----------



## gridcom

Dealing with a crazy person. She is trying to tell me that going out in a group of 4 or 5 people including the AP for a smoke break during work does not violate agreed upon NC. Discuss.


----------



## jld

I thought you told her she needed to quit?


----------



## gridcom

jld said:


> I thought you told her she needed to quit?


She said, essentially, to go sh^t in my hat. So, now we get divorce.


----------



## Chaparral

gridcom said:


> Dealing with a crazy person. She is trying to tell me that going out in a group of 4 or 5 people including the AP for a smoke break during work does not violate agreed upon NC. Discuss.


What's to discuss, your wife's affair is getting stronger and stronger while you keep spinning fairy tales in your head instead of following the tried and true advice given.

Look at my post count. I've seen what your trying over and over. It worked exactly zero times. I wish you could nice your wife back, it would be wonderful. The problem is theyre making you look like an idiot cuckhold. What woman respects and wants a duck for a husband?


----------



## jld

Oh, no. 

Well, I guess it doesn't matter if she is taking a cigarette break with him then.


----------



## Chaparral

BTW, how's your sex life lately. That's a big clue.


----------



## jld

Chaparral said:


> What's to discuss, your wife's affair is getting stronger and stronger while you keep spinning fairy tales in your head instead of following the tried and true advice given.
> 
> Look at my post count. I've seen what your trying over and over. It worked exactly zero times. I wish you could nice your wife back, it would be wonderful. The problem is theyre making you look like an idiot cuckhold. What woman respects and wants a duck for a husband?


It worked for Still. Why do you keep discounting him?


----------



## cbnero

Seriously how do I unparticipate in this post. Some of the worst advice ever being given. 

Sorry grid but your wife is a trashy lying cheating ho. If you really want to buy into some of the baloney being sold here that's up to you. Your choices now are painfully obvious.


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> It worked for Still. Why do you keep discounting him?


Entirely different scenario.


----------



## jld

GusPolinski said:


> Entirely different scenario.


How so? Because it had not gone physical?


----------



## GusPolinski

gridcom said:


> Dealing with a crazy person. She is trying to tell me that going out in a group of 4 or 5 people including the AP for a smoke break during work does not violate agreed upon NC. Discuss.


LOL. Batsh*t crazy hobag.


----------



## jld

Grid, what is your plan now? Will she accept to go to a mediator instead of lawyers for the divorce?


----------



## Chaparral

jld said:


> It worked for Still. Why do you keep discounting him?


It did not. His wife didn't come around until he stood up for himself. He moved back in, let her leave, and exposed her. He also contacted the posom among other things. He also decided if divorce was in the cards he and his son would be fine. The only crawling was his wife after the sh!t hit the fan.


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> How so? Because it had not gone physical?


Well, there's that. Then there's the fact that -- as I recall -- the OM in Still's scenario had no idea that he was in any sort of inappropriate relationship w/ Still's wannabe WW. Entirely one-sided EA. IOW, there was no one else fighting for her time, attention, and affection.

And besides, who cares? At the end of all of it, all Still has is a wife that'll more than likely wind up cheating (or, at the very least, _trying_ to cheat) again at some point further down the road.


----------



## jld

Chaparral said:


> It did not. His wife didn't come around until he stood up for himself. He moved back in, let her leave, and exposed her. He also contacted the posom among other things. He also decided if divorce was in the cards he and his son would be fine. The only crawling was his wife after the sh!t hit the fan.


You are rewriting history.

They were getting divorced until he wrote that letter. She said that touched her heart. She decided to give him another chance.


----------



## jld

GusPolinski said:


> Well, there's that. Then there's the fact that -- as I recall -- the OM in Still's scenario had no idea that he was in any sort of inappropriate relationship w/ Still's wannabe WW. Entirely one-sided EA. IOW, there was no one else fighting for her time, attention, and affection.
> 
> And besides, who cares? At the end of all of it, all Still has is a wife that'll more than likely wind up cheating (or, at the very least, _trying_ to cheat) again at some point further down the road.


What? Why is she any more likely to cheat than your wife?


----------



## gridcom

jld said:


> Grid, what is your plan now? Will she accept to go to a mediator instead of lawyers for the divorce?


Yeah, we'll go to a mediator. I am doing some research now. It's going to be sad when she realizes that her life is going to change more than just the THINKING of how it will change. Once the changes actually happen, oh my god.


----------



## jld

gridcom said:


> Yeah, we'll go to a mediator. I am doing some research now. It's going to be sad when she realizes that her life is going to change more than just the THINKING of how it will change. Once the changes actually happen, oh my god.


I think you are right about that.

Since you obviously know her best, would you say there is any chance she might change her mind? Or is her heart completely hardened, and she just wants out?


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> You are rewriting history.
> 
> They were getting divorced until he wrote that letter. She said that touched her heart. She decided to give him another chance.


I don't know about rewriting, but it is certainly a cynical view of his situation.


----------



## farsidejunky

Grid, your wife has not stopped anything, brother.

Whoever recommended that you tell OM that she is his, that you are releasing her, is a good idea.

Then file, 180 like it is your job, and begin healing yourself and your girls.


----------



## gridcom

jld said:


> I think you are right about that.
> 
> Since you obviously know her best, would you say there is any chance she might change her mind? Or is her heart completely hardened, and she just wants out?


Honestly, I would love to say she would change her mind. But, she is so deep in a fog and making such irrational choices, I don't think she'll regret it until it's 100% done and the kids walk in the house and my stuff is missing and she has to start a full time job and the kids go bonkers because she doesnt see them anymore. Only then will she realize how terrible her decisions were

And likely, she'll marry someone for money and not love. The irony of it all


----------



## farsidejunky

Stop with the fog stuff, Grid. 

You are clutching to that theory to your own detriment. SHE IS GONE. Give her what she wants.


----------



## tom67

gridcom said:


> Honestly, I would love to say she would change her mind. But, she is so deep in a fog and making such irrational choices, I don't think she'll regret it until it's 100% done and the kids walk in the house and my stuff is missing and she has to start a full time job and the kids go bonkers because she doesnt see them anymore. Only then will she realize how terrible her decisions were
> 
> And likely, she'll marry someone for money and not love. The irony of it all


It's called hypergamy most don't act on it.
Your wife will.


----------



## LongWalk

She was smoking with OM. One addiction reinforcing another. Luckily cigarettes are an expense that can be cut out.

The four or five persons in the smoking group probably all knew of the affair and dignified it during the cigarette breaks. Like a broken record, I suggested you check her undies because if there was a way do it standing up the janitor's closet, they may have perfected it.

Is your marriage toast for certain?

That is not certain. You should do the 180. Work out a plan to separate with mediation to save money. No OM around the kids for a year. Your daughter is not going to dig him.

Now that you are acting decisive, you have a better chance to save your marriage. Treat your STBXW respectfully. Do not exhibit neediness. She chose this course. Let her cope with the reality. You are going to make it. Concentrate on work, parenting and your health. Do you smoke? Time to quit cold turkey if you do.

ReGroup, a famous TAM poster, had a really difficult WW. She went to live with OM and as ReGroup regrouped. He had to deal with her because they had a small daughter whom he loved. His wife used the daughter to torment him. She was a cake eater and did not want to let ReGroup go. She wanted him to chase her and "fight for her". I can only imagine that she was very attractive but certainly manipulative. By the end she was in love with him again and wanted him to make a move. But by the end he was strong enough to just make jokes with her. He defused her crazy as much as it was possible. But decided it was not for him. Through the grapevine it is said that he is doing well and dating hot women in the NYC area.

So right now you can tell yourself that you are going to walk away from this marriage with deliberate steps. Don't look back over your shoulder. If your wife is going to wake up and ask for a second chance, you have to be ready to say no if she is just jerking you around.

I would not talk with her about reconciliation unless she came clean about how long she was really having sexual intercourse with OM. But right now you don't need to worry about the affair. It's the job of divorce.


----------



## Chaparral

Since they don't work the same shifts and she's staying away from him how do they manage to go out for smoke breaks in a group?

Don't tell me cheaters all lie and follow the same script.

You had better split bank ACCTS and cancel credit cards before you announce divorce plans. She's going to go for your throat.


----------



## gridcom

Bank accounts have been split for weeks now. I will now start diving into all of the credit cards. I already cancelled the Best Buy card and will start canceling all cards in both our names starting tomorrow. 

No, I dont smoke


----------



## gridcom

When she told me tonight that taking smoke breaks doesnt break the agreed upon NC rule, I knew I was dealing with a crazy person.

What is The No Contact Rule?

No Text Messages
No phone calls
No going over to their house
No accidentally bumping into them
No Facebook messages or IM of any kind
No contacting them via your mutual friends
No status messages on Facebook (or any other social media) which are obviously meant for them


----------



## GusPolinski

gridcom said:


> When she told me tonight that taking smoke breaks doesnt break the agreed upon NC rule, I knew I was dealing with a crazy person.
> 
> What is The No Contact Rule?
> 
> No Text Messages
> No phone calls
> No going over to their house
> No accidentally bumping into them
> No Facebook messages or IM of any kind
> No contacting them via your mutual friends
> No status messages on Facebook (or any other social media) which are obviously meant for them


It means a) no. contact. whatsoever. and b) doing whatever is needed in order to make that possible.


----------



## turnera

ThreeStrikes said:


> Holy crap. You're the man of the house. Start acting like it.
> 
> *You* come up with the numbers. Figure it out. This isn't rocket science.


Telling her to 'do the numbers' is just one more Nice Guy attempt to shock her and make you look better.

When in reality the only way to make you look attractive at this point is you showing her you respect yourself too much to sit by and watch her pine away for a boytoy.

Do the numbers. Hand them to her. Tell her what you will offer in a settlement, and let her see that she will no longer have cable or more than one cell phone for the family or vacations or a new car for the next five years and so on. 

Then set up an eBay account and start selling stuff. Let her see you selling stuff. Put it in an account to be divided up when you divorce. Let her see the house starting to empty out; let her see you determined to move on if she won't FIND A NEW JOB.


----------



## LongWalk

Gridcom,

Congratulations. You have turned the corner. You are no longer in limbo. Or at least you have got your hands on the rope and can pull yourself to the surface.

You still love your wife but you are ready to let go because she is hurting you. Why is she doing it? Revenge for her resentments? Maybe she is punishing herself due to FOO issues. You cannot go into her head now. She needs to do it in IC. 

One question you probably have is why did trickle truth? She exposed herself but stopped short of the truth and then she lied about what she was doing but then reluctantly came clean, well about one additional fact. There is more she is not sharing. 

The night that you were anxious about her lack of communication now has a context – she was always violating NC. To what degree you don't really know. I suspect that she has stored up this violation of NC to goad you into pulling the trigger. In reality she had sex with OM many more times and this ugly secret has caused her to hold back from any serious reconciliation. It is a mercy that you didn't get into hysterical bonding while the truth was hidden.

Your wife has been chopping your marriage down but hasn't had the courage to explain it to you or probably herself.

You might tell her that you understand her better now and you and you are going to get over your anger so that you can successfully coparent. It's going to take time but you will do it.

I don't think she believes in OM. Your gut feeling that she is looking for OM2 is probably right on.


----------



## Keepin-my-head-up

LongWalk said:


> Gridcom,
> 
> Congratulations. You have turned the corner. You are no longer in limbo. Or at least you have got your hands on the rope and can pull yourself to the surface.
> 
> You still love your wife but you are ready to let go because she is hurting you. Why is she doing it? Revenge for her resentments? Maybe she is punishing herself due to FOO issues. You cannot go into her head now. She needs to do it in IC.
> 
> One question you probably have is why did trickle truth? She exposed herself but stopped short of the truth and then she lied about what she was doing but then reluctantly came clean, well about one additional fact. There is more she is not sharing.
> 
> The night that you were anxious about her lack of communication now has a context ? she was always violating NC. To what degree you don't really know. I suspect that she has stored up this violation of NC to goad you into pulling the trigger. In reality she had sex with OM many more times and this ugly secret has caused her to hold back from any serious reconciliation. It is a mercy that you didn't get into hysterical bonding while the truth was hidden.
> 
> Your wife has been chopping your marriage down but hasn't had the courage to explain it to you or probably herself.
> 
> You might tell her that you understand her better now and you and you are going to get over your anger so that you can successfully coparent. It's going to take time but you will do it.
> 
> I don't think she believes in OM. Your gut feeling that she is looking for OM2 is probably right on.


Wow!

This is the first time I have followed a thread and read someone turning the corner.
I have caught up on old threads and seen it but what Grid has done, from a man that seemed he would allow his wife to do anything and still bathe her feet in rosewater at the end of the day, to someone who has found his balance and is beginning to stand on his feet.

I salute all of you who have helped him get there.
Especially you Grid.

You had to read all the harsh but helpful comments and advice and use it however you needed to in order to become stronger.

Good stuff


----------



## gridcom

Turned a corner...

I hope so. It is 4am here and I am wide awake because I kicked her out of our bed and I just woke up feeling bad about it, wishing this would all just wash away, wishing she was lying next me. 

I wouldn't wish this pain on anybody. Every single day is banana's. 

Also, I still believe they've only had sex once. Hung out more than I was told? Sure. Walked to the car, kissed in the parking lot? Sure. I would guarantee it. Sex in a closet? C'mon now


----------



## jld

The only thing that might get her rethinking things is the reality of living on her own. But even then, she might just be done with grid. The years of feeling treated without respect may have just taken their toll.

Grid, if she is truly done, then I don't think ultimatuming her would have worked any better 11 weeks ago than yesterday. She does not seem like a person who is going to break right down when confronted by control techniques. You probably just got the benefit of 11 extra weeks with your girls full-time. That is probably going to change, unless she decides to give you full custody while she goes with OM. Stranger things have happened, so have a plan in case that is what she decides she wants.

It does seem like you have flip-flopped a lot in the last 11 weeks. Understandable, but not necessarily helpful. Either pursuing a complete control technique plan, like setting up rules and strictly enforced consequences, the 180, exposing her at work, etc., or a complete Win her back through personal change approach might have helped you avoid some of your emotional outbursts with her, which surely did not make her feel emotionally safe with you.

She must know on some level that she is playing with fire. But when she goes home to a man who is throwing up, telling her to move out one day and talking Retrouvaille the next, kicking her out of the bed, but then regretting it, she might not feel you are any more emotionally stable than she is. She might not see leaving you as anything more than a material loss. And if she is better with money than you are, she might not see leaving you as a complete loss.

Originally I thought you wanted her to work through the figures because you wanted her to see for herself how difficult your financial situation is. Then it occurred to me that you may feel she is just better at the math than you, and you wanted her help. Another sign of dependence on her.

Grid, if she is capable of going out and finding another man with more money, who treats her well, and she does not feel controlled by, do you see why her heart is not in reconciliation? Yes, she should stay, just for her girls. They would feel a lot more comfortable with their parents together. But she is not willing, at least right now, to do that.

You do not really seem to have much influence over her. She does not trust you emotionally. Why would she? You keep flaking out on her. Again, understandable, but with consequences for the marriage.

Grid, we can all only do what we can. This marriage may have been toast a long time ago, long before she slept with him or was even attracted to him. Try to learn what you can from your mistakes, follow life's advice regarding the kids, and start learning more about money and exercising financial self-discipline. Getting financial control of your life can only help you going forward. Your girls are going to need money, no matter what ultimately happens with you or your perhaps soon to be ex-wife.


----------



## LongWalk

In the Nazi concentration camps people had sex between barbed wire standing up.

re: Kicked out of the bed
Invite her back. Tell her you're sorry. Say you both need to sleep well. Now is the time you have to understand jld and lifeistooshort. In your mind your, no matter how difficult it is, you have to start being nice to her in a profound way. You are letting her go. You are now to be calm, resolved, fair, forgiving.

She knows you are in pain. This situation has been hard on her. Now that you are letting go, you are giving her a chance.

1) Do not get your hopes up, plan for your marriage to end because that is the likely outcome;
2) Detach from her for real; you need to do it to heal;
3) Concentrate on work, your kids, working out;
4) Schedule times with her to discuss the divorce; set a time limit in advance; every time there is a point of disagreement put those points aside for later discussion; keep the meetings business like;
5) Informing family – ask her how she wants to it. Don't talk about the cheating now.
6) Keep going to church – I am not Christian, but now is a good time for bible study and prayer:

Here is prayer for you. Keep in mind I am an atheist.



> Dear Lord,
> 
> It's Sunday again and I am here in your house. Let me take the opportunity to thank you for the beautiful children you have given me. Thanks, too, for the lying wh*re wife. I should watched her more carefully and done who knows what else. My bad. Lucky for her there's no Hell anymore. If the Buddhists are right and I am coming again. In the next life I want to be your boss, so that I can fire your azz and make sure the ugly fat guards ask for your door key and escort you from the building. Hope your next job will be watching over Planet Claire for eternity.
> 
> I know you think I am broken now. But you're wrong. I am going to end this right. I am done begging. Going to end this dignity.
> 
> My wife and OM both have smokers' breath. I couldn't compete with him in this department. I am going to be an exemplary STBXH from now on. The crazier she gets, the calmer I will be. Oh, yes and thank you Jesus for spending messages through Spotify.
> 
> I don't really have too much more to say for the moment. Going kill the rest of the service by reading some of your Old Testament karma stories; stonings, grasshoppers, good stuff, man.
> 
> See you next week.


Bad attempt at humor. Sorry.

Now that you 93 percent sure you marriage is a lost cause. Your wife will see that you are not letting her cake eat anymore. There is some chance she will get it. The key now is that you do not take her back just because she wavers. Do not have sex with her if she offers it. The last thing you need is some pity f^ck or other such mind games.


----------



## Chaparral

gridcom said:


> Turned a corner...
> 
> I hope so. It is 4am here and I am wide awake because I kicked her out of our bed and I just woke up feeling bad about it, wishing this would all just wash away, wishing she was lying next me.
> 
> I wouldn't wish this pain on anybody. Every single day is banana's.
> 
> Also, I still believe they've only had sex once. Hung out more than I was told? Sure. Walked to the car, kissed in the parking lot? Sure. I would guarantee it. Sex in a closet? C'mon now


Kicking her out of bed is good.

If she only banged him once that will be a first for this kind of affair. Why do you think she would tell the truth about this when everything else she's said has been a lie.

Download the divorce papers from your state and go over them with her. If that doesn't shock her back to reality nothing will and you haven't wasted any more time.


----------



## Chaparral

BTW, follow the 180.

Go to the coping with infidelity section and read almostrecovered 's thread for newbies.


----------



## jld

Here's another idea. You could be open and honest with her about your pain. You could tell her you kicked her out of the bed in anger, and later regretted it. You could tell her you still love her like crazy, despite everything that has happened. You could tell her about your daughter kneeling by the bed, praying for Mommy and Daddy. You could let the transparency of your heart work on her conscience.


----------



## farsidejunky

I see a lot of suggestions that are really just a bluff. Grid, it is clear you can't bull shyte your wife. The same is NOT true in reverse.

Acceptance of this situation is critical. You have not done so yet as evidenced by you kicking her out of your bed. 

Has it occurred to you that she is deliberately punishing you? My wife did similar things due to my neglect of her. She would say and do things to hurt me. I think your wife is doing the same.

She wants to sleep in the bed? Okay. She wants to sleep in the spare room? Okay. She wants to have a MCOA (Midget Clown Orgy Association) meeting with a live demonstration? As long as the kids aren't home, no problem!

Stop showing her your vulnerable side. Stop being a victim. Stop trying to change her. 

Start detaching. Start divorce proceedings. Start the 180. Follow Longwalk's advice about notifying the OM and set a time to discuss division of assets and debts.

Get yourself to 50,000 feet. That is when the things she says and does will no longer matter. You will not be able to do it properly at first, so fake it until you make it. Do pilots concern themselves with what is happening on the ground? Not when they are at 50,000 feet. Be the pilot.

Get familiar with four sayings:

1. I sorry you feel that way.

2. I am not okay with (insert whatever you have a problem with here).

3. Are you done?

4. I see it differently.

She tells you she likes smoking with OM? Banging OM? That she hates your guts and hopes that you would just die? Calmly cue number 1.

She tells you the divorce is your fault? Calmly cue number two. "I am not okay with you cheating while simultaneously blaming the divorce on me."

She rages? Calmly cue number 3.

She disagrees with something discussed? Calmly cue 4.

Here is the thing, Grid. Your wife is damaged right now. And whether you see it or not, she is projecting that damage onto you. Those four sayings work wonders at reflecting it back at her while simultaneously protecting you, through emotionally communication. 

Use them, Grid. They will help you see your WW for what she is, as well as help you reach 50,000 feet.


----------



## LongWalk

jld said:


> Here's another idea. You could be open and honest with her about your pain. You could tell her you kicked her out of the bed in anger, and later regretted it. You could tell her you still love her like crazy, despite everything that has happened. You could tell her about your daughter kneeling by the bed, praying for Mommy and Daddy. You could let the transparency of your heart work on her conscience.


:redcard: 

Don't.

No more heart on sleeve. Invite her back to bed just because you don't care. It does not make a difference. 

Do not engage her in any relationship talk at all. If she wants to talk, fine. Listen. If she says, something crazy, just say, "You think so, maybe...okay, I understand okay" and leave her BS. If she says something rational, calmly agree. Don't discuss. Discussion tells her that everyone can be happy once they've said their piece. But that is not true.

One important change has taken place. She broke NC and kept that secret for weeks. That was unacceptable. The consequences are absolute.

Your wife has to feel that you are done. 

Recognize that there are different outcomes that you yourself have seen. She may now run to OM. That is her choice. If she now reasons, we are getting a divorce, now I can get in more than just a quickie at work, she may allow herself. Say nothing.

If you cannot sleep go to YouTube and do some yoga

FarsideJunky is right on. The only perfection to the set answers is to find your own wording and variations so that you don't sound like a robot.

Also, by no longer (showing) that you care about her meeting OM for sex and companionship, you suck a lot of the meaning out of it. Before she was concentrating on deceiving you. It was a game that she played so well, you did not catch on. Now you are not controlling her anymore. She has to hide the relationship from the people whom she seeks respect, including your daughter.

Right now your detachment is critical.

How much equity is in the house?

Can she borrow money to buy you out?


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> Here's another idea. You could be open and honest with her about your pain. You could tell her you kicked her out of the bed in anger, and later regretted it. You could tell her you still love her like crazy, despite everything that has happened. You could tell her about your daughter kneeling by the bed, praying for Mommy and Daddy. You could let the transparency of your heart work on her conscience.


This time is past, JLD.


----------



## LongWalk

Chaparral said:


> Kicking her out of bed is good.
> 
> If she only banged him once that will be a first for this kind of affair. Why do you think she would tell the truth about this when everything else she's said has been a lie.
> 
> Download the divorce papers from your state and go over them with her. If that doesn't shock her back to reality nothing will and you haven't wasted any more time.


:iagree:

And you can let her back in because you are done with her and indifferent. The idea that you won't have sex with her may not have entered her head yet. That is something new. Sometimes when a cheater is done, they will still want sex to prove that they've got you under their thumb.

Play that old Stone's song. Under my thumb.


----------



## farsidejunky

Just make sure that if she does try to seduce you, you smile when you turn her down. 

Don't look at her like she is crazy. Look at her like you were expecting it.


----------



## GusPolinski

gridcom said:


> Turned a corner...
> 
> I hope so. It is 4am here and I am wide awake because I kicked her out of our bed and I just woke up feeling bad about it, wishing this would all just wash away, wishing she was lying next me.
> 
> I wouldn't wish this pain on anybody. Every single day is banana's.
> 
> *Also, I still believe they've only had sex once.* Hung out more than I was told? Sure. Walked to the car, kissed in the parking lot? Sure. I would guarantee it. Sex in a closet? C'mon now


Poor guy. You're still hanging onto the last vestiges of who and what you _thought_ your wife was.

You need to let go of all that.


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> What? Why is she any more likely to cheat than your wife?


Mrs. Still's gradual (and defiant) acceptance of a perceived lack of options sort of tells the tale there.


----------



## jld

GusPolinski said:


> Mrs. Still's gradual (and defiant) acceptance of a perceived lack of options sort of tells the tale there.


Tells what tale?

Still's wife and your wife both had an EA. Or maybe your wife had two, can't remember. 

You are both doing better now. Neither of you can be sure it will not happen again. 

That is how I see it, anyway.


----------



## jld

Far, I think you and LW are trying to get grid to be something he is not. And I think you are projecting motives onto his wife. 

You do not know that she is punishing or manipulating him. Remember, she knows him. She has lived with him for thirteen years. She might just be fed up with him, but also having mixed feelings about breaking up her family. Guilt, coupled with the need for emotional oxygen.

Idk. Sometimes I think letting people be themselves is best. His being truly vulnerable, not trying to pretend anything, without expecting anything from her, might work on her conscience. Not to save the marriage, but to promote a good co-parenting relationship going forward.

Grid, did you say you showed her this thread? But she was not interested in reading it? What do you make of that? To me it seems like she might really be done. Not even any curiosity about your feelings.

And I think that "Are you done?" question is disrespectful. It will not promote goodwill moving forward. Just stick to "I'm sorry you feel that way." That is unlikely to escalate ill will.


----------



## ButtPunch

Grid

Here is one thing I am certain of. You do not know what the future
holds for you. Your WW may be shocked back into reality or she may 
run off with OM and live happily ever after. Life doesn't always work the way we want it too.
People love to think that a WS will grow up and regret their life choices 
but sadly some don't. You must accept that you have no control over this
situation. You must understand that life goes on and you, your girls and
even your ww will be just fine once the healing process takes hold. 

I do not think you should let her cheating a$$ back in your bed. She doesn't
deserve to be there. She has violated NC and you must break the emotional hold
she has on you. The 180 is how this is done. Do the 180 for you, not to get her back.

Can't you see that JLD wants you to take the abuse and nice her back and most others want you 
to shock her back to the marriage by filing for divorce. Both are attempts by you to control and 
manipulate your marriage back together. Once you accept you don't have any control then you
will start to heal. 

As of right now, you have a wayward wife who has violated NC. She refuses to quit her job and trust me from all of my TAM experience if there is one thing I know it's that they cannot work together. They cannot see one another ever. It may be one month or five years but they will hook up again it's just a matter of time if they continue to work together. 

Divorce isn't the end of the world. You and your girls will be just fine. I know the pain you are going thru.
It gets better I promise. Show your WW that you don't need her to be happy because deep down you really don't.


----------



## LongWalk

ButtPunch is right on. Divorce is a compass out of the woods. Follow it. As he states the purpose of divorce is divorce. How your wife will react is not predictable. She may or may not know her own mind. Do not chase her. Manipulation is a form of pursuit.


----------



## farsidejunky

JLD, you may be right about her motivations. Either way it does not change his path moving forward.

"Are you done" is used when someone wants to continue to argue. If it is being used, chances are it is being used in response disrespectful behavior. If she escalates from there, walk away. Her problems are not Grid's problems anymore.

If she needs oxygen, setting her free will work. If she has guilt, that is up to her to solve; not Grid's problem.

What have you seen that shows her conscience has even entered the picture beyond trickle truth over sleeping with OM once (um, right) while pining away and secret communication?

She is done.


----------



## jld

Untrue that I want him to suffer, BP. And if they were debt-free and she had her own self-supporting job, I might feel better about a divorce here.

But he has said himself that his girls are going to suffer financially from the fallout of his and his wife's actions. I was trying to prevent that. 

Grid, you could take a break and try to relax. Try to step back and catch your breath. Get some counsel from some older, wiser men, ideally in stable relationships, who know you and your wife in real life. They could be a solid support system for you going forward.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> Untrue that I want him to suffer, BP. And if they were debt-free and she had her own self-supporting job, I might feel better about a divorce here.
> 
> But he has said himself that his girls are going to suffer financially from the fallout of his and his wife's actions. I was trying to prevent that.
> 
> Grid, you could take a break and try to relax. Try to step back and catch your breath. Get some counsel from some older, wiser men, ideally in stable relationships, who know you and your wife in real life. They could be a solid support system for you going forward.


I didn't say you wanted Grid to suffer. Everyone suffers in divorce. They also recover. People gain and lose fortunes every day money is meaningless in the grand scheme of things.


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> Tells what tale?
> 
> Still's wife and your wife both had an EA. Or maybe your wife had two, can't remember.
> 
> You are both doing better now. Neither of you can be sure it will not happen again.
> 
> That is how I see it, anyway.


Details are important, and to ignore them is to court failure.


----------



## jld

BP, you edited out the word suffer. You said I wanted him to suffer her abuse. Untrue.

I guess I will have to quote you in the future.


----------



## jld

GusPolinski said:


> Details are important, and to ignore them is to court failure.


And that has what to do with your and Still's recuperating marriages?


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> BP, you edited out the word suffer. You said I wanted him to suffer her abuse. Untrue.
> 
> I guess I will have to quote you in the future.


Isn't that what being a cuckold is? I can't think of any worse abuse for a man than writing love letters and being vulnerable emotionally to a woman who vowed to be faithful to you is loving and screwing another man. She is so checked out she isn't even trying to hide it well. She DNGAF.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> JLD, you may be right about her motivations. Either way it does not change his path moving forward.
> 
> "Are you done" is used when someone wants to continue to argue. If it is being used, chances are it is being used in response disrespectful behavior. If she escalates from there, walk away. Her problems are not Grid's problems anymore.
> 
> If she needs oxygen, setting her free will work. If she has guilt, that is up to her to solve; not Grid's problem.
> 
> What have you seen that shows her conscience has even entered the picture beyond trickle truth over sleeping with OM once (um, right) while pining away and secret communication?
> 
> She is done.


She was going to a bible study, to church. I think that shows some conscience. I think that was something to work with.

Life's article keeps coming to mind. If G2 thinks there is something better out there, I can see why she would not be committed to reconciliation. 

And when he says he is working on himself, but then tells her to move out in a fit of emotion, I can see how that would say "emotionally unstable" to her. She probably already feels off balance herself; how would his behavior make her feel any safer staying with him?

I think the years of neglect took their toll. She probably felt like she was carrying the marriage before, and is sick of it. I think she is foolish to do what she is doing, and I think she is going to see that, too.

But I don't know if she is going to regret it. She might just be glad to be done with grid. And I think that is a shame, because he really does love her, and he is the father of her kids. I think that is a lot to work with, right there.


----------



## jld

BP, the only way the approach I advocate can work is if the man is willing, at least at first, to assume responsibility for the marriage. He first has to lead before he can expect her to follow. And the leading starts with looking at his own character, and starting to improve it.

It takes patience, and humility. And maturity. Grid tried, but he could not quite get there. He waffled between taking responsibility, and falling into blame and self-pity and fear, and subsequenty lashing out at her. Any gains by improvement in his behavior were erased by his true heart condition showing, like when he told her to move out at 2 am. 

She knows grid. She knows his heart. She knows what she can realistically expect from him. And she is not convinced.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> She was going to a bible study, to church. I think that shows some conscience. I think that was something to work with.


This could indicate several things: conscience, seeking answers for God's will in her life, guilt, or denial. I have known many who continue to go to church while they have been knee deep in someone else spouse. 



jld said:


> Life's article keeps coming to mind. If G2 thinks there is something better out there, I can see why she would not be committed to reconciliation.


I think this is true, combined with the fact that she is in fantasy land with the OM.



jld said:


> And when he says he is working on himself, but then tells her to move out in a fit of emotion, I can see how that would say "emotionally unstable" to her. She probably already feels off balance herself; how would his behavior make her feel any safer staying with him?


Anyone who would expect him to maintain his emotions after it has come to light that she has been subversive in no contact has unrealistic expectations. But I don't really think that is the case. She is in fantasy land. She is in love with the OM. The music thing? That is what star crossed lovers do. She is really just doing the minimum to maintain her thin grasp on what she currently has with the OM. I don't think safety is even a factor right now, and I think that is you projecting. The OM is not safe either due to exposure, but she us seeking him out. She is in love with the OM, pure and simple.




jld said:


> I think the years of neglect took their toll. She probably felt like she was carrying the marriage before, and is sick of it. I think she is foolish to do what she is doing, and I think she is going to see that, too.


Absolutely Grid screwed up. This is Grid's to own. But she cannot see it is foolish until she feels discomfort. Exposure was only enough to drive this underground. She needs to feel larger consequences. She needs to see Grid moving on. But even then, I think she is so emotionally invested this new OM that she will not feel foolish until divorce is complete and the OM proves he is not who she thought. Grid's wife will be the WW that shows up on his door step a year after divorce, begging for a second chance.



jld said:


> But I don't know if she is going to regret it. She might just be glad to be done with grid. And I think that is a shame, because he really does love her, and he is the father of her kids. I think that is a lot to work with, right there.


It is a lot to work with when she is ready to value it. But she is in love with the OM. She will only regret this when the OM is seen for what he truly is, which will take time...post divorce.

JLD, do you remember when you first felt love for a man? Maybe Dug; maybe another. Love conquers all; problems magically seemed smaller; visions of you and he living happily ever after. That is where she is right now. Grid is background noise, and not something she has to really deal with because he keeps hanging around. A small problem.


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> And that has what to do with your and Still's recuperating marriages?


Forest AND trees.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> BP, the only way the approach I advocate can work is if the man is willing, at least at first, to assume responsibility for the marriage. He first has to lead before he can expect her to follow. And the leading starts with looking at his own character, and starting to improve it.
> 
> It takes patience, and humility. And maturity. Grid tried, but he could not quite get there. He waffled between taking responsibility, and falling into blame and self-pity and fear, and subsequenty lashing out at her. Any gains by improvement in his behavior were erased by his true heart condition showing, like when he told her to move out at 2 am.
> 
> She knows grid. She knows his heart. She knows what she can realistically expect from him. And she is not convinced.


We don't see eye to eye. A healthy man does not tolerate cheating. A leader does not tolerate cheating. A mature man does not tolerate cheating. A codependent will. He will suffer and say he's doing it for the kids, or cause he loves her more than anything, or financially they are stuck. All while he sits in the cozy victim chair doing what's "best for the kids".


----------



## jld

It is hard for me to believe the thing with OM will last, far. I hope grid gives it time to die out. If he really loves her, he will work on himself and give her a chance to see the light.


----------



## jld

GusPolinski said:


> Forest AND trees.


Are you making this up as you go along? I don't see a coherent message.

At any rate, I do think grid could learn from Still. Sometimes there are happy endings.


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> We don't see eye to eye. A healthy man does not tolerate cheating. A leader does not tolerate cheating. A mature man does not tolerate cheating. A codependent will. He will suffer and say he's doing it for the kids, or cause he loves her more than anything, or financially they are stuck. All while he sits in the cozy victim chair doing what's "best for the kids".


I don't think examining your conscience and changing your behavior is sitting in the victim chair. And when you do not have any money, and still love your wife, as in grid's case, I think Wazza's example could be helpful.


----------



## naiveonedave

ButtPunch said:


> We don't see eye to eye. A healthy man does not tolerate cheating. A leader does not tolerate cheating. A mature man does not tolerate cheating. A codependent will. He will suffer and say he's doing it for the kids, or cause he loves her more than anything, or financially they are stuck. All while he sits in the cozy victim chair doing what's "best for the kids".


yeah, I was going to post similar. To lead, in Grid situation is to fire the person he is leading.


----------



## just got it 55

farsidejunky said:


> This time is past, JLD.


Yup 11 weeks ago

Move on Grid start your healing you are a long way off as the new reality is just about to hit both of you.

Maybe that reality may help......... maybe not.

just heal yourself and see what happens.

55


----------



## jld

naiveonedave said:


> yeah, I was going to post similar. To lead, in Grid situation is to fire the person he is leading.


Dave, do you see the difference between a codependent being nice to her to get his own emotional needs met, and a truly strong, emotionally independent man being mature enough to hold the family together while he works on correcting the mistakes that led to her vulnerability?


----------



## lifeistooshort

I think it's time for you to detach and take a harder line. Do not engage her except for children and business and do not sleep with her. Period. You aren't even plan B right now, you're plan C. If your wife was done with OM and simply po'd at you that would be dealt with one way but for her to continue with OM while she shops for a replacement is ridiculous. And if she has chronic health issues and doesn't make much money she's not a great deal for another man, so her road is likely to be rocky. 

Draw up divorce papers now. .... don't be nasty about it, just tell her you get that she's done and you're not interested in a woman who's messing with others anyway so you'll be moving on with your life. Then detach.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## naiveonedave

jld said:


> Dave, do you see the difference between a codependent being nice to her to get his own emotional needs met, and a truly strong, emotionally independent man being mature enough to hold the family together while he works on correcting the mistakes that led to her vulnerability?


yes, but that shipped sailed long ago. I also don't think Grid is able to lead right now. What you are asking is beyond the capability of >>99% of the men out there.


----------



## turnera

grid, just wanted to make one comment. To help you understand, part of - a MAJOR part of - the allure of an affair *IS* to find a closet to have sex in. Ever watch Gray's Anatomy? It's the hiding, the sneaking, the 'let's do it quick before they catch us in here!' stuff.


----------



## jld

naiveonedave said:


> yes, but that shipped sailed long ago. I also don't think Grid is able to lead right now. *What you are asking is beyond the capability of >>99% of the men out there.*


Yes, this might be true.


----------



## naiveonedave

jld said:


> Yes, this might be true.


JMO - but Grid tried plan A until he could do it no more. Maybe he didn't do it well and didn't lead well enough. But we humans aren't perfect. Plan A for a man, once you realize she is that gone has to be one of the most frustrating, humiliating and damaging places to be.


----------



## jld

naiveonedave said:


> JMO - but Grid tried plan A until he could do it no more. Maybe he didn't do it well and didn't lead well enough. But we humans aren't perfect. Plan A for a man, once you realize she is that gone has to be one of the most frustrating, humiliating and damaging places to be.


I am sure it is hard. But do you remember the governor of Indiana, Mitch Daniels? His wife left him and their four daughters for a surgeon in CA. She stayed with him for a few years, then came back to her husband and children. Reconciliation can happen, even in the most unlikely cases.


----------



## Evinrude58

jld said:


> The only thing that might get her rethinking things is the reality of living on her own. But even then, she might just be done with grid. *The years of feeling treated without respect may have just taken their toll.*
> 
> Grid, if she is truly done, then I don't think ultimatuming her would have worked any better 11 weeks ago than yesterday. She does not seem like a person who is going to break right down when confronted by control techniques. You probably just got the benefit of 11 extra weeks with your girls full-time. That is probably going to change, unless she decides to give you full custody while she goes with OM. Stranger things have happened, so have a plan in case that is what she decides she wants.
> 
> It does seem like you have flip-flopped a lot in the last 11 weeks. Understandable, but not necessarily helpful. Either pursuing a complete control technique plan, like setting up rules and strictly enforced consequences, the 180, exposing her at work, etc., or a complete Win her back through personal change approach might *have helped you avoid some of your emotional outbursts with her, which surely did not make her feel emotionally safe with you.*
> 
> She must know on some level that she is playing with fire. *But when she goes home to a man who is throwing up, telling her to move out one day and talking Retrouvaille the next, kicking her out of the bed, but then regretting it, she might not feel you are any more emotionally stable than she is. She might not see leaving you as anything more than a material loss. And if she is better with money than you are, she might not see leaving you as a complete loss.*
> 
> Originally I thought you wanted her to work through the figures because you wanted her to see for herself how difficult your financial situation is. Then it occurred to me that you may feel she is just better at the math than you, and you wanted her help. Another sign of dependence on her.
> 
> *Grid, if she is capable of going out and finding another man with more money, who treats her well, and she does not feel controlled by, do you see why her heart is not in reconciliation?* Yes, she should stay, just for her girls. They would feel a lot more comfortable with their parents together. But she is not willing, at least right now, to do that.
> 
> You do not really seem to have much influence over her. *She does not trust you emotionally.* Why would she? You keep flaking out on her. Again, understandable, but with consequences for the marriage.
> 
> Grid, we can all only do what we can. This marriage may have been toast a long time ago, long before she slept with him or was even attracted to him. Try to learn what you can from your mistakes, follow life's advice regarding the kids, and start learning more about money and exercising financial self-discipline. Getting financial control of your life can only help you going forward. Your girls are going to need money, no matter what ultimately happens with you or your perhaps soon to be ex-wife.


The bold stuff: I believe this to be just way out of the ballpark of reality. All this implies this woman is subconsciously or consciously calculating his worth at all times. It also implies he was a horrible, disrespectful husband, which I just don't agree with. 
I believe she just was tempted by some man that came along and gave her some attention, had low character, and now is all tied up in how she loves him and that her husband is bad, bad, bad. The bad husband thing is just a crutch for her to not feel so guilty about her bad behavior. If you're right, then every man on the planet that ever had a cheating wife is always at fault and he is the reason for her bad behavior. I personally don't think that at all. Getting fed up with a bad spouse and leaving is much different than having an affair and falling out of love.
JMO


----------



## jld

I can believe not everyone is vulnerable to cheating, just like not everyone is tempted by sweets. But it makes sense to pay attention to your marriage, and to be conscientious about how you treat your partner to help prevent vulnerability. That could be a lesson moving forward. Jmo.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> I am sure it is hard. But do you remember the governor of Indiana, Mitch Daniels? His wife left him and their four daughters for a surgeon in CA. She stayed with him for a few years, then came back to her husband and children. Reconciliation can happen, even in the most unlikely cases.


I hope Mitch lived his life like she wasn't coming back while she was gone. If he didn't, I don't consider this a success. I just think it's sad. To wait and pine for years for someone who is gone isn't healthy.


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> I hope Mitch lived his life like she wasn't coming back while she was gone. If he didn't, I don't consider this a success. I just think it's sad. To wait and pine for years for someone who is gone isn't healthy.


I don't know any details. I read it in a magazine or newspaper a long time ago. But it stayed with me. I don't think many people would have that kind of patience.

No idea if he was celibate or not during those years. He obviously really loved her, though, and he loved those girls. That is the part that reminded me of grid.


----------



## ConanHub

naiveonedave said:


> yes, but that shipped sailed long ago. I also don't think Grid is able to lead right now. What you are asking is beyond the capability of >>99% of the men out there.


It is beyond most women as well. Not much attraction in sucking up abuse and neglect from an idiot.

I've read jld would leave her husband for far less than she advocates others to endure. 

If Dug stopped loving her, actively displayed his hatred for her by having sex with other women and neglected both her and her children emotionally and financially, I seriously doubt, based on her own posts, that she would even flinch before signing divorce papers.

Unless someone has an agreement like jld and Dug have, her advice for infidelity is no good. 

I appreciate some of her insights about marriage in general but most people don't want a child to adult relationship with their spouse.

I can almost guarantee that Dug would not just suck damage while throwing cotton candy and sunshine while jld behaved like grid's wife.

Dug might not divorce but he would take all matters in hand.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ButtPunch

My cousin and his wife divorced and remarried 10 years later and had a baby girl. Happy as ever. 
Reconciliations happen but it takes both people on board. Right now, Grid is on his own.


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> Are you making this up as you go along? I don't see a coherent message.
> 
> At any rate, I do think grid could learn from Still. Sometimes there are happy endings.


Yep. My fingers are just dancing incoherently across my keyboard.

Anyway, my comment was aimed at the old "can't see the forest for the trees" adage -- it's fine to see the forest, but when walking _through_ the forest, you need to take note of the trees. In other words, details matter.

Unless, of course, you actually WANT to continually walk straight into them.


----------



## tom67

ButtPunch said:


> My cousins divorced and remarried 10 years later and had a baby girl. Happy as ever.
> Reconciliations happen but it takes both people on board. Right now, Grid is on his own.


:iagree:
It's time to file and serve her AT WORK.


----------



## jld

ConanHub said:


> It is beyond most women as well. Not much attraction in sucking up abuse and neglect from an idiot.
> 
> I've read jld would leave her husband for far less than she advocates others to endure.
> 
> If Dug stopped loving her, actively displayed his hatred for her by having sex with other women and neglected both her and her children emotionally and financially, I seriously doubt, based on her own posts, that she would even flinch before signing divorce papers.
> 
> Unless someone has an agreement like jld and Dug have, her advice for infidelity is no good.
> 
> I appreciate some of her insights about marriage in general but most people don't want a child to adult relationship with their spouse.
> 
> I can almost guarantee that Dug would not just suck damage while throwing cotton candy and sunshine while jld behaved like grid's wife.
> 
> Dug might not divorce but he would take all matters in hand.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He would not be passive, that's for sure. But I am convinced he would act out of love for me, not out of his own pride.

You are right that I do not give the exact same advice to men as to women. I don't think the needs are exactly the same.

Dug has no issue with that, either. He told me once that men are selfish and women are vulnerable. That is how he sees it, anyway.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

It is disingenuous to claim reconciliation success when the Daniel's actually *divorced*, she left her 4 kids, *she moved to another state*, they lived their own lives, and they eventually remarried. This is something people on this board who advocate divorce of a cheater suggest. Divorce the cheater, live your life and if you happen to reconnect you can choose to try again. We can play semantics all day, but in reality it isn't what is being suggested. 

The HUGE difference is they ended the marriage, before they did anything more.


----------



## BetrayedDad

gridcom said:


> Also, I still believe they've only had sex once. Hung out more than I was told? Sure. Walked to the car, kissed in the parking lot? Sure. I would guarantee it. Sex in a closet? C'mon now


You are painfully naive... This is unbearable, seriously. 

They had sex numerous times, in numerous positions, in numerous places. She was a freak in the sack and did all the stuff she wouldn't do with you. You can bet the house on it.

She FVCKED another guy, FVCKED man FVCKED, and you feel bad she's not in your bed?!? You're painting a pretty good picture of why she has no respect for you at all.


----------



## ConanHub

jld said:


> He would not be passive, that's for sure. But I am convinced he would act out of love for me, not out of his own pride.
> 
> You are right that I do not give the exact same advice to men as to women. I don't think the needs are exactly the same.
> 
> Dug has no issue with that, either. He told me once that men are selfish and women are vulnerable. That is how he sees it, anyway.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


While Dug can make those claims about himself and you, he certainly cannot speak with authority for all men and women.

There are many selfish women, vulnerable men and everything in between.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## gridcom

Wow, insane number of posts since my last one. My situation has evoked much discussion. I just went to IC and it was the most refreshing hour (er, 45 minutes really) that we've had. 

A few thoughts. I largely agree with JLD. When she writes about my marriage, I almost feel like she knows us. As much as some of you are either pulling your hair out or shaking your head at this comment, please let me tell you that I am the ONLY one here that knows all the nuances of my marriage. JLD is more on point that you guys are giving her credit for. 

Upon reading all of your comments and seeing my IC today, I made a critical mistake yesterday. I should have told my wife what I found but should have done it in a non confrontational way and then left her alone to come around to the fact that for THE VERY FIRST TIME I confronted her in a more healthy way. I failed at that.

You all say for me to work on me, well regardless of what she did, that would have been a better approach to the discovery than what I did, which was repeat the behavior that I've fallen victim to time and time again. 

I think my IC session today was very good at addressing this. My IC also told me that she thought my wife was acting like an immature, irresponsible teenager but that what she does is out of my control and only what I do is what is in my control. Nothing new.

Again, knowing my wife like I know her, she KNOWS that the right thing to do is to try and fix her marriage.
She read this: How to Love Your Spouse Again: When You've Checked Out
and wants to follow it.... And for a few days this week and a few days last week, things were looking better for the family Grid. 

Is it stupid that her and him have lanterns lit for each other across the lake via the stupid Spotify to Radio Station Request Hour thing? Of course. Do I conclude from that and the fact that they take smoke breaks with small groups that they are having sex unbeknownst to me? No. I still dont. Not because I am in some weird denial. I just know my wife. She knows the affair was a mistake. She knows she needs to cut the crap. She is still addicted. The arrow is still in her heart. 

JLD sometimes you write things and I think you are actually my wife in disguise, but then I see the number of posts you have and realize you are not. You are so on the money with some of what you've written, especially today.

I am going to get up today and dust myself off.


----------



## jld

phillybeffandswiss said:


> It is disingenuous to claim reconciliation success when the Daniel's actually *divorced*, she left her 4 kids, *she moved to another state*, they lived their own lives, and they eventually remarried. This is something people on this board who advocate divorce of a cheater suggest. Divorce the cheater, live your life and if you happen to reconnect you can choose to try again. We can play semantics all day, but in reality it isn't what is being suggested.
> 
> The HUGE difference is they ended the marriage, before they did anything more.


I didn't know they divorced. I think she was having the affair before they divorced, though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

ConanHub said:


> While Dug can make those claims about himself and you, he certainly cannot speak with authority for all men and women.
> 
> There are many selfish women, vulnerable men and everything in between.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think this is true. Not every man is like Dug, and not every woman is like me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

gridcom said:


> Wow, insane number of posts since my last one. My situation has evoked much discussion. I just went to IC and it was the most refreshing hour (er, 45 minutes really) that we've had.
> 
> A few thoughts. I largely agree with JLD. When she writes about my marriage, I almost feel like she knows us. As much as some of you are either pulling your hair out or shaking your head at this comment, please let me tell you that I am the ONLY one here that knows all the nuances of my marriage. JLD is more on point that you guys are giving her credit for.
> 
> Upon reading all of your comments and seeing my IC today, I made a critical mistake yesterday. I should have told my wife what I found but should have done it in a non confrontational way and then left her alone to come around to the fact that for THE VERY FIRST TIME I confronted her in a more healthy way. I failed at that.
> 
> You all say for me to work on me, well regardless of what she did, that would have been a better approach to the discovery than what I did, which was repeat the behavior that I've fallen victim to time and time again.
> 
> I think my IC session today was very good at addressing this. My IC also told me that she thought my wife was acting like an immature, irresponsible teenager but that what she does is out of my control and only what I do is what is in my control. Nothing new.
> 
> Again, knowing my wife like I know her, she KNOWS that the right thing to do is to try and fix her marriage.
> She read this: How to Love Your Spouse Again: When You've Checked Out
> and wants to follow it.... And for a few days this week and a few days last week, things were looking better for the family Grid.
> 
> Is it stupid that her and him have lanterns lit for each other across the lake via the stupid Spotify to Radio Station Request Hour thing? Of course. Do I conclude from that and the fact that they take smoke breaks with small groups that they are having sex unbeknownst to me? No. I still dont. Not because I am in some weird denial. I just know my wife. She knows the affair was a mistake. She knows she needs to cut the crap. She is still addicted. The arrow is still in her heart.
> 
> JLD sometimes you write things and I think you are actually my wife in disguise, but then I see the number of posts you have and realize you are not. You are so on the money with some of what you've written, especially today.
> 
> I am going to get up today and dust myself off.


:slap: :slap: :slap: :slap: :slap: 

You are in for long, hard road devoid of any semblance of self-respect and fraught at every turn w/ little more than soul-rending pain. ETA: And at the end of it all, all your wife will have learned is that she can do pretty much anything to you, and you'll just sit there and take it, waiting for her arm to get too tired, too heavy, and too sore to continue slapping you in the face.

Best of luck to you.


----------



## GusPolinski

phillybeffandswiss said:


> It is disingenuous to claim reconciliation success when the Daniel's actually *divorced*, she left her 4 kids, *she moved to another state*, they lived their own lives, and they eventually remarried. This is something people on this board who advocate divorce of a cheater suggest. Divorce the cheater, live your life and if you happen to reconnect you can choose to try again. We can play semantics all day, but in reality it isn't what is being suggested.
> 
> The HUGE difference is they ended the marriage, before they did anything more.


Wait... who is this?


----------



## ButtPunch

UH oh.....

F*ck it.....I'm Done. 

I hope everything works out. I wish you the best.
But You clearly don't want to hear what I have to say.

Even though I have walked in your shoes and saved my marriage.


----------



## tom67

GusPolinski said:


> :slap: :slap: :slap: :slap: :slap:
> 
> You are in for long, hard road devoid of any semblance of self-respect and fraught at every turn w/ little more than soul-rending pain.
> 
> Best of luck to you.


Grid I wish you luck also You have gotten great advice here but this is a train wreck.
Peace.


----------



## gridcom

I didn't say I wasn't going to follow through with the Mediation. I am looking to set that up regardless now. I am just saying that, when it comes to my own actions yesterday, I could have done a better job.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

gridcom said:


> I didn't say I wasn't going to follow through with the Mediation. I am looking to set that up regardless now. I am just saying that, when it comes to my own actions yesterday, I could have done a better job.


Yes, you are still finding ways to blame yourself. 

All I'll say is, for you to recover you need to ignore and let the fog talk go.


----------



## ConanHub

Grid. If you are going to follow the advice of jld, you have to behave like her husband Dug.

One of your issues is not choosing a path.

Many have given good, experienced advice that they have seen work, me included.

jld is speaking theoretically about what Dug would behave like as she has not cheated. She may be accurate in her appraisal of what he would behave like but it has never been seen put to the test.

I would advise you that if you believe jld's advice to be useful in your situation that you learn to act and react like Dug would.

Dug would absolutely reestablish control over the situation and take the reigns of his family firmly in hand while reigning in a wayward wife as well.

He would put a stop to her shenanigans by every means at his disposal for the good of his wife and especially his children.

He would not put up with damaging behavior towards his kids.

You might do well to get some advice from jld's husband if you want to go on that path.

It might be your path. Choosing a path will help you regardless.

My way definitely works....for me.

Maybe you need to discover who you are or who you want to be and put your feet to that road.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> I can believe not everyone is vulnerable to cheating, just like not everyone is tempted by sweets. But it makes sense to pay attention to your marriage, and to be conscientious about how you treat your partner to help prevent vulnerability. That could be a lesson moving forward. Jmo.


This I absolutely agree with! My wife and I sit down together either every week or bi weekly to just talk. We communicate a lot anyway but we both are very cognizant of how things can mushroom when not dealt with. Nothing slips through the cracks, not now not ever. Live life consciously in every way.


----------



## LongWalk

I don't think he needs to serve her at work. Just a waste of money. Everything now should be utilitarian, spartan. Grid needs to save money and impose order. A neat and clean divorce asap with no lawyers and as little conflict as possible.

Cancelling the Best Buy card was a smart move. No more blenders on credit. The STBXMrs Gridcom needs to pay for her own cancer sticks.


----------



## ButtPunch

Please read these books. They are a start to working on yourself. 
Do it now not later. 

Codependency for Dummies
Married Mans Sex Life Primer
No More Mr. Nice Guy

All these books will help you see what some of us are trying to teach you.


----------



## turnera

gridcom said:


> I didn't say I wasn't going to follow through with the Mediation. I am looking to set that up regardless now. I am just saying that, when it comes to my own actions yesterday, I could have done a better job.


This is a great opportunity to show her the kindness you are so desperate to follow jld in and at the same time show her your self-respect.

Send her this:
"Wife, I realize today that I mishandled what happened yesterday, and you got more of the same from me. I am a work in progress and I now understand what a true man is and how he should not respond out of emotion. I don't expect it to happen again, and I'm getting therapy and learning how to become a better version of me. 

That said, what evoked that response was your continued contact with your lover. And I simply cannot stay married to someone who finds reasons and excuses and off-the-grid ways to keep a connection going with her lover while she was saying she wanted to fix our marriage. It's simply not logical for us to waffle along with you having a foot in both camps. 

So here's the deal; I'm going to take you at your word that you love him and want out, and take the appropriate steps to allow you to have him; our kids will be crushed that their mother is choosing a fantasy over a full-time life with them and that their lifestyle is going to be trashed into the poverty level with two homes, but that's your choice and I won't stop you. 

As this divorce goes forward, if you ever decide you are TRULY ready to remove him from all aspects of your life, including smoke breaks, work, and adolescent radio dedications, let me know, and I'll see if I'm still invested enough to work together with you to try to save the marriage. 

Until then, I wish you well.

But I have to warn you that if you start flaunting your infidelity in my face, our separation will happen sooner rather than later, and at greater expense, because I won't remain in the same home with a person who would do that."


----------



## manfromlamancha

turnera said:


> This is a great opportunity to show her the kindness you are so desperate to follow jld in and at the same time show her your self-respect.
> 
> Send her this:
> "Wife, I realize today that I mishandled what happened yesterday, and you got more of the same from me. I am a work in progress and I now understand what a true man is and how he should not respond out of emotion. I don't expect it to happen again, and I'm getting therapy and learning how to become a better version of me.
> 
> That said, what evoked that response was your continued contact with your lover. And I simply cannot stay married to someone who finds reasons and excuses and off-the-grid ways to keep a connection going with her lover while she was saying she wanted to fix our marriage. It's simply not logical for us to waffle along with you having a foot in both camps.
> 
> So here's the deal; I'm going to take you at your word that you love him and want out, and take the appropriate steps to allow you to have him; our kids will be crushed that their mother is choosing a fantasy over a full-time life with them and that their lifestyle is going to be trashed into the poverty level with two homes, but that's your choice and I won't stop you.
> 
> As this divorce goes forward, if you ever decide you are TRULY ready to remove him from all aspects of your life, including smoke breaks, work, and adolescent radio dedications, let me know, and I'll see if I'm still invested enough to work together with you to try to save the marriage.
> 
> Until then, I wish you well.
> 
> But I have to warn you that if you start flaunting your infidelity in my face, our separation will happen sooner rather than later, and at greater expense, because I won't remain in the same home with a person who would do that."


:smthumbup:

I agree - great post from Turnera - take her advice Grid!


----------



## Thundarr

jld said:


> It is hard for me to believe the thing with OM will last, far. I hope grid gives it time to die out. If he really loves her, he will work on himself and give her a chance to see the light.


Yes the OM/OW thing rarely last forever and I suspect Grid could wait this out and OM might fade away but at what cost? For some kind of reconciliation in the future, it would help if she has respect and admiration for him and how he handled himself. Setting personal boundaries and then living by them is how he gets respect and admiration from those around him including her. Human nature is funny thing jld. If Grid waits this out, the most likely outcome will be that she feels like she settled for him. Like she's doing him a big favor. Now if he takes steps to end the marriage and they come back together sometime later on then she can feel like she chose him and that she's also lucky.

For the record though, Grid deserves better and I hope he not only takes steps now to be done with her but I hope he doesn't give her any more chances to screw with him. He just flat out deserves someone who thinks he's too awesome to ever cheat on.


----------



## Chaparral

jld said:


> It is hard for me to believe the thing with OM will last, far. I hope grid gives it time to die out. If he really loves her, he will work on himself and give her a chance to see the light.


You got one thing righ. Statistically, only 3% of couples that get together by commiting adultery stay together.


----------



## jld

I just read the article your wife read, grid. It is a good one.

Have you seen the film _Fireproof_? It reminds me of that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lifeistooshort

The other issue is that when it fizzles out will she shift to the next OM until she finds one willing to support her and in the mean time keeps grid on a leash?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

jld said:


> BP, the only way the approach I advocate can work is if the man is willing, at least at first, to assume responsibility for the marriage. He first has to lead before he can expect her to follow. And the leading starts with looking at his own character, and starting to improve it.
> 
> It takes patience, and humility. And maturity. Grid tried, but he could not quite get there. He waffled between taking responsibility, and falling into blame and self-pity and fear, and subsequenty lashing out at her. Any gains by improvement in his behavior were erased by his true heart condition showing, like when he told her to move out at 2 am.
> 
> She knows grid. She knows his heart. She knows what she can realistically expect from him. And she is not convinced.


This is the worst post I've ever seen here............unless you're privy to info the rest of us do not have.

You have no idea what his wife thinks.


----------



## gridcom

jld said:


> I just read the article your wife read, grid. It is a good one.
> 
> Have you seen the film _Fireproof_? It reminds me of that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We saw Fireproof. That was a good night. It was followed by a bad night, followed by a good night, etc.


----------



## truster

gridcom said:


> Do I conclude from that and the fact that they take smoke breaks with small groups that they are having sex unbeknownst to me? No. I still dont. Not because I am in some weird denial. I just know my wife. She knows the affair was a mistake. She knows she needs to cut the crap. She is still addicted. The arrow is still in her heart.


You are in some denial, although I wouldn't call it "weird". You've been given basic steps to confirm or deny their continued physical contact, and you *choose* to bury your head in the sand and remain passive. Why is that? Some part of you doesn't want to hear it.

It's not abnormal, though. So many infidelity stories here started with "I *never* thought my spouse would do this in a million years, but..". My story did. It's only natural that years upon years of knowing a person wouldn't immediately be wiped away by a couple months of new behavior. 

But even though these feelings are common, the healthiest thing to do at this juncture is push yourself to understand one thing -- who your wife *is* is not who she *was*. You don't know this person, and she is going to surprise and shock you with actions that you would have previously thought to be so far beneath her. There's no doubt she's changed -- you need to find out *how much*.

If finding out she's still sleeping with him doesn't matter to you, fine. But you've said it does. And given all the other evidence, and how these stories tend to play out, it's likely she is. So if it matters, you need to go get the evidence.. doing anything less is living in willful denial, which is just going to cause you more pain. Find out what the full reality of your situation is, and live there instead.


----------



## ButtPunch

turnera said:


> This is a great opportunity to show her the kindness you are so desperate to follow jld in and at the same time show her your self-respect.
> 
> Send her this:
> "Wife, I realize today that I mishandled what happened yesterday, and you got more of the same from me. I am a work in progress and I now understand what a true man is and how he should not respond out of emotion. I don't expect it to happen again, and I'm getting therapy and learning how to become a better version of me.
> 
> That said, what evoked that response was your continued contact with your lover. And I simply cannot stay married to someone who finds reasons and excuses and off-the-grid ways to keep a connection going with her lover while she was saying she wanted to fix our marriage. It's simply not logical for us to waffle along with you having a foot in both camps.
> 
> So here's the deal; I'm going to take you at your word that you love him and want out, and take the appropriate steps to allow you to have him; our kids will be crushed that their mother is choosing a fantasy over a full-time life with them and that their lifestyle is going to be trashed into the poverty level with two homes, but that's your choice and I won't stop you.
> 
> As this divorce goes forward, if you ever decide you are TRULY ready to remove him from all aspects of your life, including smoke breaks, work, and adolescent radio dedications, let me know, and I'll see if I'm still invested enough to work together with you to try to save the marriage.
> 
> Until then, I wish you well.
> 
> But I have to warn you that if you start flaunting your infidelity in my face, our separation will happen sooner rather than later, and at greater expense, because I won't remain in the same home with a person who would do that."


I love this post and Grid should memorize it but the time for this kind of talk has elapsed. Sounds like he is still trying to convince her back. Calling her new love a fantasy and calling her out for what she's doing to the kids almost looks manipulating and may push her further away if that's possible. 

I would just detach from her and hit her with the papers. If she asks, I would then use bits and pieces of what you wrote.


IE She sees him still closing accounts or selling things and asks him"So you are not even going to give us a chance?"

Then he can give her the not while you are still working with om spill.


----------



## jld

gridcom said:


> We saw Fireproof. That was a good night. It was followed by a bad night, followed by a good night, etc.


I know it's hard. It takes a lot of tenacity to follow the Love Dare approach.

Grid, do you and your wife pray together? If you don't, would you be willing to ask her to?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## anchorwatch

Grid, 

You are still trying to educate her. As frustrating as it is watching her foggy thinking, her mind will only clear when she comes to the right conclusion on her own. 

Best


----------



## turnera

ButtPunch said:


> I love this post and Grid should memorize it but the time for this kind of talk has elapsed. Sounds like he is still trying to convince her back. Calling her new love a fantasy and calling her out for what she's doing to the kids almost looks manipulating and may push her further away if that's possible.
> 
> I would just detach from her and hit her with the papers. If she asks, I would then use bits and pieces of what you wrote.
> 
> 
> IE She sees him still closing accounts or selling things and asks him"So you are not even going to give us a chance?"
> 
> Then he can give her the not while you are still working with om spill.


I wholeheartedly agree. But grid has made it clear he wants to follow jld's Plan A, 'it's all the man's fault' routine, so I gave him a response that tried to meet BOTH approaches halfway. Humility, strength, and boundaries.


----------



## LongWalk

I suggest shortening Turnera's message:



> "Wife,
> 
> Sorry I lost my temper again yesterday. I just don't have it in me to stay married to woman who has a lover. We need to work out a good divorce that does not waste money.
> 
> Your ongoing affair is now your business. I wash my hands of trying to compete for your attention. What the two of you do together, no longer interests me. I only ask that you do not flaunt your relationship in my face. Go out and discreetly smoke cigarettes with him but keep your relationship out of sight. No more Spotify coded messages. When you need to talk with him please leave the house. Go sit in an Internet cafe or 7-11.
> 
> I wish you the best of luck. I hope we can be good co-parents in the future."[


/QUOTE]





turnera said:


> This is a great opportunity to show her the kindness you are so desperate to follow jld in and at the same time show her your self-respect.
> 
> Send her this:
> "Wife, I realize today that I mishandled what happened yesterday, and you got more of the same from me. I am a work in progress and I now understand what a true man is and how he should not respond out of emotion. I don't expect it to happen again, and I'm getting therapy and learning how to become a better version of me.
> 
> That said, what evoked that response was your continued contact with your lover. And I simply cannot stay married to someone who finds reasons and excuses and off-the-grid ways to keep a connection going with her lover while she was saying she wanted to fix our marriage. It's simply not logical for us to waffle along with you having a foot in both camps.
> 
> So here's the deal; I'm going to take you at your word that you love him and want out, and take the appropriate steps to allow you to have him; our kids will be crushed that their mother is choosing a fantasy over a full-time life with them and that their lifestyle is going to be trashed into the poverty level with two homes, but that's your choice and I won't stop you.
> 
> As this divorce goes forward, if you ever decide you are TRULY ready to remove him from all aspects of your life, including smoke breaks, work, and adolescent radio dedications, let me know, and I'll see if I'm still invested enough to work together with you to try to save the marriage.
> 
> Until then, I wish you well.
> 
> But I have to warn you that if you start flaunting your infidelity in my face, our separation will happen sooner rather than later, and at greater expense, because I won't remain in the same home with a person who would do that."


----------



## just got it 55

turnera said:


> I wholeheartedly agree. But grid has made it clear he wants to follow jld's Plan A, 'it's all the man's fault' routine, so I gave him a response that tried to meet BOTH approaches halfway. Humility, strength, and boundaries.



I believe ultimately this is the best and maybe the only way for a real chance at R 

Positive re-enforcement with love and kindness and strong and dignified proportional corrective actions to non conducive actions to the marriage/R

That's the way life works in all facets

raising children
managing employees
training animals

get the idea? 

55

55


----------



## gridcom

Good stuff today. And a good IC session that is making me sit here and think about all of this in a new way. Turnera, good stuff for sure. JLD, like you are hiding behind the curtains.

I'm sure my wife is out there right now feeling like a victim. Which is her way to deflect the blame off herself. She can't wrap her head around the fact that she has pulverized the emotions and normalcy of everyone around her. Not just her husband and kids, but her family and friends. most of whom are really just stunned by what is happening. So, yeah, today I am sure she is feeling SHE is the victim. Nevermind what she did and admitted to yesterday. "What's the big deal? So, we go take a smoke break out behind work. It isnt like we go out there alone!", "So what if he posts love songs on a playlist he made for me and then I take the same song and request it on our favorite station the next day"

She told me yesterday that if she were me, should would have said NOTHING about this. We had a clear agreement. NO CONTACT. And both of the above violate that. So, now I am forced, literally, to back up what I say. And as you all have said, even Lifeistooshort and jld, I am just pulling back the curtain a little bit and getting a little more info. if I YANKED the curtain off the wall what would I find? Have you seen that video where the people removing the roof tear off one tile and there is a bat that goes flying out. And they look at each other and go "Whoa, that was strange" And then they tear off like 10 more tiles and 1000 bats go flying into the sky? That's how I feel.
She expects me to believe I would find nothing else, and to that I have to think "This woman is crazy" 

She is living in her own warped reality. One in which she can do whatever she wants and everybody is supposed to just be cool with it. I am supposed to be cool and my daughter is supposed to be cool. And some of you are pissed off at me and have left this thread and thats cool. 64 pages now of really nothing happening. But, I'm not ashamed to say I just want to hug her and tell her we can get through this together, but now I can't. She is not the victim. Me and the kids are the victim's. once she understands that and stops feeling sorry for herself, than maybe she'll round her own corner


----------



## Evinrude58

JLD's approach is predicated on the idea that the husband was neglectful or hurtful to the wife who cheated and is now in love with the affair partner, and if the wife can be shown that the husband wants to change and fix things, they can be happy again. If it weren't for the cheating and the fact that the wife is now in love with the affair partner and not Grid, I would wholeheartedly suggest working on each other's problems and repairing the rift in the marriage. But we don't have something as small as a rift here, nor do we have 2 people who each value the marriage. We have Grid who values his wife and marriage to the extent of stabbing himself with the dagger of self-doubt, and shooting himself in the foot with hindsight. No Grid, you weren't a perfect husband. However, you have to let go of your guilt over not being a perfect husband. NOBODY is. You had your heart in your marriage, however, and your wife didn't. It wasn't because of you that she cheated, or she'd have been unhappy and ready to leave and you would know something was up long before she cheated. She is at fault here-- and doesn't care. You could forgive her and work on your marriage but for the fact that she doesn't want to be married to you, and doesn't love you anymore. That's the problem-- no love for YOU. 
Steel yourself to the fact that you have to MOVE ON. Everything you are experiencing I endured MYSELF recently. I KNOW how much pain you're in. Heck, it still hurts me. But I have accepted that my wife is gone, no longer loves me, and that a part of our failed marriage is my own fault for not taking care of things better as a husband. I have realized,however, that I was a GREAT husband in many ways, and you likely are as well. She will find that out, and it will be too late. She will want to have sex with you to check that you're still on the leash. It will haunt you-- personal experience. She will slowly conjure up all kinds of awful stuff that you did in isolated incidents that will make you feel like a complete arse, just to make herself feel vindicated to do what she's done. She will try to hurt you financially once she's over the guilt of her decision to divorce. Take full advantage of this time that she actually has some guilt and get yourself a fair divorce, or you will be absolutely screwed and unable to take care of yourself or your daughter. Your wife is NOT the person you married anymore. You have to accept this or you will remain in a tortured state. And it is absolute torture, I know from exp. 
I wish I could tell you how to get her back, but until SHE WANTS to come back, it will never happen. And that will likely be a while and several men in between. Her pride will probably keep her from ever telling you that she was wrong and should have worked on your marriage. You will lose all respect for yourself if you continue to let your hope for R consume you, as it did me for the longest. You've said your peace, and done what you could. She will ruin you if you let her.
Your path is to move on. You will have to take that path if you ever expect to have happiness again. The good thing is, there are other women out there. She is not the only person you will ever love.
JMO


----------



## jld

Why can't you hug her and tell her you know you two can get through it?

Or why can't you at least tell her that is what you would like to do?

I would like her to see the love (not desperation) in your eyes as you say that to her. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

jld said:


> Why can't you hug her and tell her you know you two can get through it?
> 
> Or why can't you at least tell her that is what you would like to do?
> 
> I would like her to see the love (not desperation) in your eyes as you say that to her.


And then you follow that with "It's too bad that marriage, those hugs, will never happen again because of your infidelity."


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> Why can't you hug her and tell her you know you two can get through it?
> 
> Or why can't you at least tell her that is what you would like to do?
> 
> I would like her to see the love (not desperation) in your eyes as you say that to her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sadly all she will see is desperation.


----------



## gridcom

This is how I define crazy..... When one's actions cause everyone around them to react a certain way and then the person causing all the harm looks at everybody freaking out due to what they did and say "Why is everybody being so mean to me???" It's like a refusal to come to terms with one's own actions, and only acknowledge the reactions of what their actions caused

That's CRAZY


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> And then you follow that with "It's too bad that marriage, those hugs, will never happen again because of your infidelity."


Sounds victimish. Not inspiring.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Evinrude58

gridcom said:


> Good stuff today. And a good IC session that is making me sit here and think about all of this in a new way. Turnera, good stuff for sure. JLD, like you are hiding behind the curtains.
> 
> I'm sure my wife is out there right now feeling like a victim. Which is her way to deflect the blame off herself. She can't wrap her head around the fact that she has pulverized the emotions and normalcy of everyone around her. Not just her husband and kids, but her family and friends. most of whom are really just stunned by what is happening. So, yeah, today I am sure she is feeling SHE is the victim. Nevermind what she did and admitted to yesterday. "What's the big deal? So, we go take a smoke break out behind work. It isnt like we go out there alone!", "So what if he posts love songs on a playlist he made for me and then I take the same song and request it on our favorite station the next day"
> 
> *She told me yesterday that if she were me, should would have said NOTHING about this.* We had a clear agreement. NO CONTACT. And both of the above violate that. So, now I am forced, literally, to back up what I say. And as you all have said, even Lifeistooshort and jld, I am just pulling back the curtain a little bit and getting a little more info. *if I YANKED the curtain off the wall what would I find? *Have you seen that video where the people removing the roof tear off one tile and there is a bat that goes flying out. And they look at each other and go "Whoa, that was strange" And then they tear off like 10 more tiles and 1000 bats go flying into the sky? That's how I feel.
> She expects me to believe I would find nothing else, and to that I have to think "This woman is crazy"
> 
> She is living in her own warped reality. One in which she can do whatever she wants and everybody is supposed to just be cool with it. I am supposed to be cool and my daughter is supposed to be cool. And some of you are pissed off at me and have left this thread and thats cool. 64 pages now of really nothing happening. But, I'm not ashamed to say I just want to hug her and tell her we can get through this together, but now I can't. She is not the victim. Me and the kids are the victim's. once she understands that and stops feeling sorry for herself, than maybe she'll round her own corner


Grid, I'm not sure after experiencing it myself, but I think if you'd go ahead and snatch the curtain and see the whole truth you would be more able to move on. 
She is indeed FOS. If you did that, any woman would come unwound. You really don't want to know. But knowing would likely enable your heart to turn the corner like your mind already has.
JMO


----------



## just got it 55

JLD I don't believe she will see love

She just doesn't believe him any longer
seems like she has lost belief in him completely 
in everything he does.

This will take allot more than a few 

I love you's 

55


----------



## turnera

gridcom said:


> This is how I define crazy..... When one's actions cause everyone around them to react a certain way and then the person causing all the harm looks at everybody freaking out due to what they did and say "Why is everybody being so mean to me???" It's like a refusal to come to terms with one's own actions, and only acknowledge the reactions of what their actions caused
> 
> That's CRAZY


That's why cheaters must have consequences, grid. NOTHING shakes them out of their affair fog except consequences. 

The kid who steals a candy bar and his dad just says 'don't do that again!' versus the kid who steals a candy bar and his dad takes him back to the store, makes him apologize, and makes him work off the value of the candy bar...which one is going to steal again?


----------



## BetrayedDad

gridcom said:


> Not because I am in some weird denial. I just know my wife. She knows the affair was a mistake. She knows she needs to cut the crap.


With all due respect, you don't know jack squat about your wife. Did you know she would fvck other men and try to dump you? "No, she would never" was probably your response prior to the affair... So then you really don't know anything. You are in some sort of weird denial fog yourself. You need a team of ICs because reality is coming to smack you hard in the face.


----------



## turnera

jld said:


> Sounds victimish. Not inspiring.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


meh, sounds like a man who's finally fed up with cheaterspeak. Sounds strong to me. Not MEANT to be inspiring, simply informative. He's tried nicing her back and all it got him was Spotify dedications to her schmoopy. You know, since her HUSBAND is still just sitting there, taking all the blame, and waiting for her to remember he's in the room.


----------



## Thundarr

gridcom said:


> But, I'm not ashamed to say I just want to hug her and tell her we can get through this together, but now I can't. She is not the victim. Me and the kids are the victim's. once she understands that and stops feeling sorry for herself, than maybe she'll round her own corner


Those of us who've been through similar to what you're going through now understand how frustrating and conflicting this can be Grid. Just because you need to back away from someone for your own good doesn't mean you have to stop loving them. At this point the bottom line is that she's not treating you like you deserve so you've got to step back. Maybe that will change one day but for now you've got to protect yourself and do things that you'll be proud of later on. Staying with her acting the way she is will not make you proud later so you know that's a bad option. Having moments of weakness where you miss what you had is human though. It's what we do.


----------



## ButtPunch

BetrayedDad said:


> With all due respect, you don't know jack squat about your wife. Did you know she would fvck other men and try to dump you? "No, she would never" was probably your response prior to the affair... So then you really don't know anything. You are in some sort of weird denial fog yourself. You need a team of ICs because reality is coming to smack you hard in the face.


Grid is still in shock and denial. The sooner we can get him out of it the better.


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> meh, sounds like a man who's finally fed up with cheaterspeak. Sounds strong to me. Not MEANT to be inspiring, simply informative. He's tried nicing her back and all it got him was Spotify dedications to her schmoopy. You know, since her HUSBAND is still just sitting there, taking all the blame, and waiting for her to remember he's in the room.


Turnera, not to be offensive, but to me it sounds babyish. "I'm hurt, and it's all your fault. Wah, wah, wah!" Again, not inspiring.

Grid, you have to stay off the victim chair. You cannot give into self-pity. You have a ship to save, and sitting on a three-legged stool with a glum look on your face thinking about how unfair life is is not going to cut it.


----------



## ButtPunch

Thundarr said:


> Those of us who've been through similar to what you're going through now understand how frustrating and conflicting this can be Grid. Just because you need to back away from someone for your own good doesn't mean you have to stop loving them. At this point the bottom line is that she's not treating you like you deserve so you've got to step back. Maybe that will change one day but for now you've got to protect yourself and do things that you'll be proud of later on. Staying with her acting the way she is will not make you proud later so you know that's a bad option. Having moments of weakness where you miss what you had is human though. It's what we do.


I agree. I would add one more thing. Do not let fear make your decisions. Fear of losing what you had, fear for your kids can drive you to do things you shouldn't. Get to 50,000 ft. and look at the whole picture.


----------



## just got it 55

jld said:


> Turnera, not to be offensive, but to me it sounds babyish. "I'm hurt, and it's all your fault. Wah, wah, wah!" Again, not inspiring.
> 
> Grid, you have to stay off the victim chair. You cannot give into self-pity. You have a ship to save, and sitting on a three-legged stool with a glum look on your face thinking about how unfair life is is not going to cut it.


JLD you do make a few great points:laugh:

but so does T :|:|

Man....one guy who I would not want to be is grid 

55


----------



## Chaparral

Thundarr said:


> I faced this situation in 1994. There was no internet and no TAM to let me know about NC or "180" but we just innately understand that NC is not negotiable for a valid reconciliation. She and I didn't reconcile because she kept her job so I filed papers and thank god for it. She's been a cheating train wreck for everyone she's been with since and I met my current wife in 1996 who just has better character than my ex. Sometimes it's not complicated even when it's difficult.





dubsey said:


> Walk up to her, grab her hands lovingly, tell her you love her, but you're aware she's already made her choice. You're done looking for ways that she's choosing him over you. Tell her it's time to move out, and you wish her the best of luck. You hope it was worth it. Give her a kiss on the forehead, and walk away.





jld said:


> Why can't you hug her and tell her you know you two can get through it?
> 
> Or why can't you at least tell her that is what you would like to do?
> 
> I would like her to see the love (not desperation) in your eyes as you say that to her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Positive reinforcement for negative behavior. Pavlov must be spinning.


----------



## turnera

How is it babyish to say "I love you, I WANT to be with you, but you've ruined that chance by your actions"? Maybe even add in "and it makes me mad that I'm losing the wife and marriage I wanted because of it."


----------



## ButtPunch

turnera said:


> How is it babyish to say "I love you, I WANT to be with you, but you've ruined that chance by your actions"? Maybe even add in "and it makes me mad that I'm losing the wife and marriage I wanted because of it."


It's more persecutor than victim. I think grid needs to stay out of the drama triangle.


----------



## jld

just got it 55 said:


> JLD you do make a few great points:laugh:
> 
> but so does T :|:|
> 
> Man....one guy who I would not want to be is grid
> 
> 55


I think he can come out of this, wife and kids intact. I know I am the only one, but I think he can do it. He knows the right direction, anyway.

Grid, you have to get your emotions under control. And every time you fail, you need to apologize and get back on track.

And you have to believe in yourself. You have to believe you can do this. You know your wife. You know what she is capable of. You know how to win back her trust. You just need to set your mind to it, do the work, and be patient. That OM is a dead end.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Grid... There is verbiage I like to use to describe these type situations... yes, your previous behavior was *destructive* to your marriage, but your wife chose by her own volition to *add destruction to your destruction*. Therefore, neither merit favor. Both are equally guilty and *your previous destruction did NOT justify her destructive choice*. She had other options that were *constructive* and bypassed those. So... now you are here today addressing your past destructive behavior while your wife is still dabbling in hers. Forward progression will not happen until both parties stop destructive behaviors and fully face each destructive choice and choose different *(constructive)* for the future. UNTIL she chooses to be *constructive*, you are risking injury entrusting yourself to her since she is still functioning in an irrational affair fog (*destructive*). You MUST wait for the fog to lift before engaging her on a rational level. Anything prior to as you are finding out is totally irrational (*destructive*). Focus on you and your kids *(constructive*) while she is irrational (*destructive*). If she remains irrational, you will have nothing to work with. If she returns to rationality, then you have hope. 

Now... there are different ways to provoke rationality and that is the different styles you are seeing here between "inspire her to rationality" or "180 her to rationality" aka boundaries.... its up to you to decide which one will work. In my case, it took a blend of both.


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> How is it babyish to say "I love you, I WANT to be with you, but you've ruined that chance by your actions"? Maybe even add in "and it makes me mad that I'm losing the wife and marriage I wanted because of it."


It is blaming her. It is handing power over to her (he lets her decide how things go, how he feels, instead of choosing that himself).

"Honey, I love you and my heart hurts thinking I could lose you. I understand if you go; I was a jerk to you for years."

"But I would like another chance. We can go to mediation, if you want. But I would like us to take 30 days, just like your article said, to try again. We could follow the advice in the article. And for me, if I mess it up by getting emotional and blaming you, I am going to apologize and ask for a redo. Because I have been that victim kind of guy too many times, and I don't want to be that way anymore."

"Are you willing to try with me? Can we agree what no contact means to both of us? Can we give ourselves another chance?"

Tbh, grid, even that is asking too much of her. I would just start doing what the article said. Don't even let yourself look for cooperation from her. You take the wheel of the ship. You just start steering in the right direction.


----------



## turnera

jld said:


> I think he can come out of this, wife and kids intact. I know I am the only one, but I think he can do it. He knows the right direction, anyway.


I think he can, too. I just don't think your path is the way there.


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## Thundarr

jld said:


> I think he can come out of this, wife and kids intact. I know I am the only one, but I think he can do it. He knows the right direction, anyway.
> 
> Grid, you have to get your emotions under control. And every time you fail, you need to apologize and get back on track.
> 
> And you have to believe in yourself. You have to believe you can do this. You know your wife. You know what she is capable of. You know how to win back her trust. You just need to set your mind to it, do the work, and be patient. That OM is a dead end.


Oh boy. Now for clarification:
- "He knows the right direction". No. He doesn't know the right direction. His direction has been to control and manage and it's been failing and your input is leading him further down that path.
- "You have to beleive you can do this". No. Grid controls Grid and that's it. He can do his own part but he cannot make mrs Grid love him. He cannot nice her into loving him.
- "You know your wife". No. He absolutely does not know his wife. I bet he'll tell you that point blank. He thought he knew her but not he understands that he doesn't.
- "You know what she is capable of". No. He likely didn't think she was capable of falling for another guy and acting like it's no big deal. He has no idea of what else she's capable of.
- "You know how to win back her trust". Who needs to win trust here? Trust in what? I thought she's the one cheating.
- "You just need to set your mind to it". No. Setting our minds to something doesn't give us magical powers to control other people with out "set minds". Grid controls Grid and mrs Grid controls msr Grid.


The root issue here is that Grid can control himself (mostly) but does not have magic to control others. He can only influence his wife and let her make her own choices.


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> I think he can, too. I just don't think your path is the way there.


That's okay. He is learning from both of us.


----------



## jld

Another thing, grid. When you are tempted to call her crazy, step back. You have to see through her eyes. It does not have to make sense to you. But you must understand her thought process, her motivations, if you are to establish meaningful communication. It is the beginning of re-establishing trust, her feeling like you are trying to understand her, not judge her.


----------



## turnera

jld said:


> It is blaming her. It is handing power over to her (he lets her decide how things go, how he feels, instead of choosing that himself).


She should not be blamed for screwing another man? Seriously?


----------



## jld

Thundarr said:


> Oh boy. Now for clarification:
> - "He knows the right direction". No. He doesn't know the right direction. His direction has been to control and manage and it's been failing and your input is leading him further down that path.
> - "You have to beleive you can do this". No. Grid controls Grid and that's it. He can do his own part but he cannot make mrs Grid love him. He cannot nice her into loving him.
> - "You know your wife". No. He absolutely does not know his wife. I bet he'll tell you that point blank. He thought he knew her but not he understands that he doesn't.
> - "You know what she is capable of". No. He likely didn't think she was capable of falling for another guy and acting like it's no big deal. He has no idea of what else she's capable of.
> - "You know how to win back her trust". Who needs to win trust here? Trust in what? I thought she's the one cheating.
> - "You just need to set your mind to it". No. Setting our minds to something doesn't give us magical powers to control other people with out "set minds". Grid controls Grid and mrs Grid controls msr Grid.
> 
> 
> The root issue here is that Grid can control himself (mostly) but does not have magic to control others. He can only influence his wife and let her make her own choices.


You're funny, Thundarr.


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> She should not be blamed for screwing another man? Seriously?


He has to see above it, for now. He has to do that 50k feet thing that far mentioned.

It is not good for her to go be with that boy. It is not going to satisfy her. She does want to do the right thing, underneath all the hurt and fog. He just has to help her along until she can see it for herself.

Yes, in some ways it is like guiding an errant teen. But no punishments allowed.


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## ButtPunch

turnera said:


> She should not be blamed for screwing another man? Seriously?


Grid needs to get angry. That's the proper emotion when you been cheated on.

Hopefully, he'll get there when the shock subsides.


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## turnera

*sigh*

I'll just revert back to what I always end up telling you, jld. Your advice is more harmful than beneficial because the rest of us don't live in the land of unicorns and rainbows like you and dug. What works for you two doesn't even come close to working for us mortals. In fact, it gives poor saps like grid false hope that he can nice her back while she's writing love poems to her boy lover. So in the so-important first weeks/months of an affair, when he DOES have a chance to pry her loose from her lover, he's - because of his all-too-common BH fear of losing his woman - clinging on to your misguided advice that if he would just be Superman and Ghandi and Dug, she'd gasp and smack her forehead and go 'what was I thinking?!'

Regular women don't work that way. Regular women follow the dictates of regular, well-founded psychological reactions. We want what we can't have, and we barely even NOTICE what's busy throwing itself at our feet.

Anyway, he's heard this a million times by now, no need to further drag this out. grid, just keep us posted on the latest.


----------



## Thundarr

ButtPunch said:


> Grid needs to get angry. That's the proper emotion when you been cheated on.
> 
> Hopefully, he'll get there when the shock subsides.


Anger can be a wonderful thing when used to overcome fear and uncertainty.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Grid, 

I took a 50,000 foot view and kept myself there. Told my husband "I don't care what you've done I'm not leaving you." While AT THE SAME TIME no longer accepting destructive behavior. Because I met his destructive behavior WITH constructive behavior it gave me leverage by which I could make a stand for constructiveness from both of us or I would not remain in the marriage. We were dealing with infidelity AND abuse. I gave him ONE shot at choosing better for the sake of our marriage/family. It worked. I was VERY clear about what I would no longer tolerate while at the same time showing compassion for his pain and struggle. There were times I was too entangled and had to remind him that we are in this mess because of your choices, but MOST of the time he was painfully aware of it. Your wife isn't quite there yet, and I'm not sure she will. But, if she does... I too followed a different path.


----------



## LongWalk

re: cigarette breaks with OM



> She told me yesterday that if she were me, should would have said NOTHING about this. We had a clear agreement. NO CONTACT.


I agree with your wife. You are getting trickle truth and you understandably blow up. To be the man jld thinks you should be, you need to keep your temper. That is the same advice you are getting from ButtPunch – go to 50,000 feet. Your wife is disorganizing her life based on emotional impulse. It's driving you crazy. So disengage from it.

You are in fact doing this. You are getting tougher and being more objective with every passing day.

You have a lot of followers because you are making an effort. People giving advice to you are also trying to draw inspiration from you. Who knows your wife may be on Loveshack, discussing her tribulations.

At the beginning of your thread there was a feeling that reconciliation could be simple. Your wife would wiggle across the no man's land in our bed and your would kiss and make up. Turns out that was unreal.


----------



## truster

Hey grid, I can tell you've got conflicting feelings about drinking bleach to cure your thirst. I'm here to tell you that you should have some faith that it'll be fine, and just drink it.

I've never drank it myself, but I *love* spicy food, so I'm pretty sure if I was in your situation I would just drink it up and be just fine.

Now, the naysayers will point to the warning labels, and lab tests, and hospital statistics saying most bleach drinkers die. But you know what? I remember one guy, a while back, who drank bleach and DIDN'T die! I mean, he prayed for death, sure, and he poops blood most weeks, but he's most definitely alive. Come to think of it, he may have actually just had a sip and then spit it out when he realized it, so maybe it doesn't EXACTLY apply, but.. eh, you know what, you'll be fine.


----------



## Evinrude58

Thundarr said:


> Anger can be a wonderful thing when used to overcome fear and uncertainty.



I totally agree. I will just say that in my very similar situation to grid's, I was in shock, and couldn't feel any emotion at all. I went from the numb stage, to the f the world stage, to the f her stage, and now into the IDGAF what she does stage. I have had problems with temper in the past, some with my wife years ago. Never with my kids, and rarely with other adults unless they mistreat people I love. My point is that normally I am more than capable of getting beyond angry at this woman. I don't know that I ever felt as much anger as I did sadness, helplessness, shock, betrayal, hopelessness, and heartache.

Grid is going to have to endure some horrible pain. I firmly believe that he will endure the horror even longer until he accepts that she is a cheater, she does not love him, and she is STILL cheating. Had sex with the guy one time? I'd bet my next paycheck that is a lie.

I believe JLD is a very sincere person, but very much out of touch with the reality of 99% of people. If one could love their wife back, there would be far fewer divorces out there. It just doesn't happen.
Once a woman makes up their mind that they don't love you, it doesn't come back very often, especially with other men involved.
THey become different people. Grid needs to abandon ship while he still can get a divorce and get full or partial custody of his kids, and a financially fair divorce. He will be divorced one way or the other. The only thing that is a variable is how much and how long the pain will last. That's where we come in, giving him a realistic view of what's about to happen to him so that he can have a better chance of making informed decisions. 
He probably thinks his relationship and his love is special, that if he truly loves his wife she will see it and come back. That hope is NOT beneficial to him. The faster he divorces her and stands on his own two feet, the more likely he will get happy. Only a happy, strong man has a chance at getting his life back. He can not WIN her back.


----------



## jld

truster said:


> Hey grid, I can tell you've got conflicting feelings about drinking bleach to cure your thirst. I'm here to tell you that you should have some faith that it'll be fine, and just drink it.
> 
> I've never drank it myself, but I *love* spicy food, so I'm pretty sure if I was in your situation I would just drink it up and be just fine.
> 
> Now, the naysayers will point to the warning labels, and lab tests, and hospital statistics saying most bleach drinkers die. But you know what? I remember one guy, a while back, who drank bleach and DIDN'T die! I mean, he prayed for death, sure, and he poops blood most weeks, but he's most definitely alive. Come to think of it, he may have actually just had a sip and then spit it out when he realized it, so maybe it doesn't EXACTLY apply, but.. eh, you know what, you'll be fine.


Truster.

Grid, feel free to ignore any or all of my advice. Take what works for you, and leave the rest.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lifeistooshort

Hmm, I must say I'm reminded of my father who used to say that when a woman looks at you and the love in her eyes is gone it's time to be moving on down the road.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## truster

jld said:


> Truster.
> 
> Grid, feel free to ignore any or all of my advice. Take what works for you, and leave the rest.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry, that was probably a little *too* snarky for a well-meaning, insightful person who I just disagree with. >

I think you're an inspirational person, and your advice rings true on how to put aside one's pride, cut through hurt feelings, and engage a spouse's love and respect for you, constructively.

It's just, having been through it (and read deep into each of the CWI stories), I don't think any of that works on a remorseless WS, 99% of the time. The S mind and the WS mind are two separate things. And that is one of the hardest things to come to grips with.. that this person that you thought you knew is nothing like the person that is now. The sooner the BS grasps that, the healthier they can be.

In the build-up to that realization, the BS (me included) just ends up looking like Charlie Brown, Lucy, and that football..

"She'd never mess with other men!" *whiff*
"OK, so she did, but she'd never sleep with one!" *whiff*
"OK, so she slept with one ONCE, but she'd never.." *whiff*
"OK, so she's cheated lots of times, but now that I put my foot down, she'd never disrespect.." *whiff*
"OK, so she cheated, and won't stop, but she'd never lie about it in court to get more money.." *whiff*


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> Truster.
> 
> Grid, feel free to ignore any or all of my advice. Take what works for you, and leave the rest.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


JLD

I just feel you are giving these newly betrayed spouses hope in these infidelity situations and they eat it up every time. 

They eat it up because they are desperate for things to go back like they were.

There is no way too manipulate a WS back. You can't nice them back and you can't 180 them back. 

People do reconcile but it isn't because the BS does this or that.


----------



## bfree

Actually I think grid should listen to all the advice he's receiving and choose whatever path he feels is right for his circumstances. At least that way he can look at himself in the mirror and know that whatever happens he did the best he could.

Grid, I am not pissed off at you. That would never happen. In point of fact I'm pissed off for you. I've been where you are and it hurts. It hurts so damned much. Most of the time you're in such pain you can't even think straight. Just know that we'll all be here for you no matter what happens. We all give our time here because at some point someone gave time for us. There is no magic pill. There is no perfect pathway. The best you can do is plod along and hopefully not fall down too much. And when you do fall down we'll do our best to help pick you up. God bless you brother. I'll keep praying for you.


----------



## gridcom

bfree said:


> Actually I think grid should listen to all the advice he's receiving and choose whatever path he feels is right for his circumstances. At least that way he can look at himself in the mirror and know that whatever happens he did the best he could.
> 
> Grid, I am not pissed off at you. That would never happen. In point of fact I'm pissed off for you. I've been where you are and it hurts. It hurts so damned much. Most of the time you're in such pain you can't even think straight. Just know that we'll all be here for you no matter what happens. We all give our time here because at some point someone gave time for us. There is no magic pill. There is no perfect pathway. The best you can do is plod along and hopefully not fall down too much. And when you do fall down we'll do our best to help pick you up. God bless you brother. I'll keep praying for you.


Thanks. I keep engaging. Even today. I feel like I am just a wounded animal behaving like a wounded animal. I love her. I hate her. I want to kiss her. I want push her face into a toilet and bang the toilet seat on the back of her head. I want to protect my kids. I want the best for them. I want them to go to college. I want to be able to afford summer camp so they can go and be with their friends. i want to be able to afford the community pool. I dont want them to hate us because we failed them and right now we are failing them. 

I want to be able to pay for a replacement screen on my iphone when it cracks. I want MLB.TV. I want to say yes when my kids ask for ice cream. I want to be able to afford new walking sneakers when I wear these sole's to the nubs. i want to be able to go to lunch with my coworkers when they say they are going to get some afternoon grub. 

I dont want to have to sell my baseball cards from when I was a kid. Or sell my awesome set of drums. I worked hard to get where I am. My wife and I both come from pretty lower middle class and in her case basement poor families. Nobody gave us anything. We built this together. She helped. She carried furniture when we moved. She's fought for what's right. She's battled and won.

Sometimes life serves you a sh^t sandwhich with a side of crap


----------



## bandit.45

Your WW is failing them, not you.


----------



## truster

gridcom said:


> I want to be able to pay for a replacement screen on my iphone when it cracks. I want MLB.TV. I want to say yes when my kids ask for ice cream. I want to be able to afford new walking sneakers when I wear these sole's to the nubs. i want to be able to go to lunch with my coworkers when they say they are going to get some afternoon grub.


All the ice cream in the world won't make you feel better when you're being consistently emotionally abused.. and when you're out from under it, not having ice cream is no big deal at all. Don't sweat the small stuff -- your kids won't. I guarantee you they'd all swear off ice cream forever if it meant having to not see you in the wounded animal act again.

I told ya you were gonna backslide, but it's part of the process. Just don't get into the mindset that the setback is anything but temporary. Plan the next step, be proactive. What's something you've been wanting to do, or learn, but haven't? Find a woodworking class or something.. finally getting to do it will make you feel better about change, and in general. Focus on being a happier you, and you'll have more positive energy for the road ahead, and for time with your kids.

I still say be proactive in tracking down whether this thing is ongoing or not. If it is, your resolve is strengthened to separate. If it's not, your resolve is strengthened to stay, perhaps. But either way, you KNOW.. and not knowing is where the anxiety comes from that eats you up, getting you asking the same questions over and over. Just answer them.. you'll feel better no matter what the answer is.


----------



## LongWalk

When is the last time you played your drums?

When your wife first got the job and said she could do it and was enjoying it, what did you think? Did you attribute her good humor to work when in fact she was already getting emotionally involved with OM?

One of the reasons your wife is having so much trouble detaching from OM is because they were involved for a long time. 

If she was in love with him for a year and then had sex and was able to suddenly break it off. It is difficult to explain. Was the sex revolting or disgusting to her? If so, she ought to have a great incentive to put the emotional relationship behind her.

If the sex was good and took place over the space of several months, she may have been panic stricken that she was losing control and that is why she confessed. She believed that would put her in a position to make things right. However, she discovered her feelings for you were damaged or non existent and that her passion for OM did not vanish.

You've been trying to puzzle out why she cannot be intimate with you. Well, it must be hard to give yourself to someone when you still have a huge lie looming over your relationship.

But all of this speculation is just confusing at this point because she is unwilling to face the difficulties that lie ahead in case of reconciliation.

You cannot live like a wounded animal.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

gridcom said:


> Sometimes life serves you a sh^t sandwhich with a side of crap


Just because it is served, it doesn't mean you have to eat.


----------



## jld

Maybe her confession was a subconscious cry for help.


----------



## turnera

Just sayin', some of the best memories you can make with your kids can be finding ways to 'get' what you want when you work together. Teach them to play music, and become a musical group for money. Teach them to build bookcases or birdhouses and sell them at the local swapmeet. Take them to garage sales and let them buy one thing they want to sell, and then take them home and teach them how to place an ad on eBay or bookoo.com (local eBay - no shipping). Let them JOIN you on this path of rebuilding your wealth and they will not only appreciate that ice cream cone they helped pay for, but they will LOVE LOVE LOVE the togetherness you created in their lives, and they will cherish it the rest of their lives. Not to mention they'll become better, less dysfunctional people; hell, they may not even notice having two homes, their lives will become so much more fulfilling than before.

Start a family tradition of camping (no expense) where they spend REAL TIME with you instead of playing a video game or watching tv. Teach them to fish. Help them set up lemonade stands, which adults are always suckers for. There are SO many things you can do to ensure your kids are loved, fulfilled, and thrilled. Just having mom and dad in the same house, or having money to waste are NOT the determination of happiness.


----------



## turnera

jld said:


> Maybe her confession was a subconscious cry for help.


If it was, she squandered it by continuing to cheat.


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> If it was, she squandered it by continuing to cheat.


You are really angry with her. She broke the rules, and you feel no sympathy.


----------



## turnera

It doesn't matter whether I feel sympathy or not. What matters is WHAT SHE DOES.

And what she does - at this moment - is admit and then CONTINUE TO CHEAT. 

And fwiw, I had a husband even worse than him. For 35 years. And I have had much more to gripe about than she has in terms of a bad husband. But I didn't spread my legs for another man because of it.

So for him to be told by you to kiss her ass and basically beg her to forgive him for all the wrong things he 'did,' and FORGET that she spread her legs, and when he is finally saintly enough to be 'forgiven' for his horrible mistreatment of her...yeah, I got no sympathy. 

She could have done half a dozen things other than cheat. But she didn't. And just because you found a marriage in which you get to blame the man for something, and convince him to be your husband's mirror image and absolve his woman of all sins, which in your mind is the ultimate man, you won't open your mind to any other way than for him to make this work.

I've agreed that he can be kind and compassionate and own his side of the street. But the part YOU won't even talk about is him holding her accountable. I've been doing this much longer than you have and I have seen what happens to men with cheating wives who follow your way. The success rate is nearly nil. Out of thousands of threads. Because it doesn't work to kiss a cheating woman's ass if the husband doesn't get her to stop cheating. Because women only love one man at a time, her heart is already given, so he's tilting at windmills waiting for her to remember he's in the same room.

Now, if he were to stay doing what he has now started to do - say "I won't accept this" - he MAY have a chance at saving his marriage.

And, back to your point, if she were to agree to quit that job - instead of telling him to pound sand like she did - THEN I would have sympathy for her.


----------



## jld

Afaik, they are headed to mediation. Her world is going to look different very shortly.

That really seems to bother people, that Dug feels the marriage is ultimately his responsibility.


----------



## jld

You might want to take a look at this, grid:

When your wife cheats on You | Brian and Anne Bercht

"_There is tremendous hope where the wife has been unfaithful, because the betrayed husband is serious about becoming the man he needs to be for his wife, and the changes he makes stick, so now more than ever the wife can have the husband she always wanted with the man she married.

The illusion that things will be better with the affair partner is exactly that, an illusion. In real life the other man comes with his own set of character flaws, and the loving courtship behaviors that are present in the secret relationship, don’t continue if the affair becomes a marriage._"


----------



## tech-novelist

gridcom said:


> Turned a corner...
> 
> I hope so. It is 4am here and I am wide awake because I kicked her out of our bed and I just woke up feeling bad about it, wishing this would all just wash away, wishing she was lying next me.
> 
> I wouldn't wish this pain on anybody. Every single day is banana's.
> 
> Also, I still believe they've only had sex once. Hung out more than I was told? Sure. Walked to the car, kissed in the parking lot? Sure. I would guarantee it. Sex in a closet? C'mon now


Adults who want to have sex find a way to do it.


----------



## daisygirl 41

My H had an affair with a co worker on and off for 4 years. He hurt her and messed her around as much as he did me, but every single time he wanted her back, she dropped her husband without a second thought. She was pathetic. I know for a fact she would still do it and is only back with her husband because she got dumped again. Is that the wife you want?
You need to show her you can live without her. File for divorce, even if you don't mean it, you can't nice her out of this!


----------



## turnera

jld said:


> Afaik, they are headed to mediation. Her world is going to look different very shortly.
> 
> That really seems to bother people, that Dug feels the marriage is ultimately his responsibility.


jld, IF YOU WERE CHEATING and Dug felt that your cheating was his fault, it _would _bother us. Because it would not be true.

What bothers us isn't that your marriage works for you, it's that you try to make other marriages fit your mold. And your mold is different from every single other marriage I've ever seen in my life. So what you say would work, WOULD work - in YOUR marriage.

In other marriages? As many have told you since you've been here, your mold could end up destructive. 

Him taking responsibility for her cheating just because he was neglectful is not only ludicrous, it is harmful. THAT is what we have a problem with.


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> Afaik, they are headed to mediation. Her world is going to look different very shortly.
> 
> That really seems to bother people, that Dug feels the marriage is ultimately his responsibility.


Actually I completely agree that in many traditional marriages the man should be the leader. As to whether he has been a good leader or a good husband, that is certainly open to debate. But that isn't the question right now is it? The immediate concern is how does Grid get his wife to re engage in the marriage long enough for him to get his house in order and for her to see his strength and find the desire to follow him.


----------



## jld

bfree said:


> Actually I completely agree that in many traditional marriages the man should be the leader. As to whether he has been a good leader or a good husband, that is certainly open to debate. But that isn't the question right now is it? The immediate concern is how does Grid get his wife to re engage in the marriage long enough for him to get his house in order and for her to see his strength and find the desire to follow him.


He just needs to set an example. By working on his own issues, like getting control of his emotions, she will see that he is serious about improving the marriage.

Did you read the link I just provided?


----------



## sidney2718

turnera said:


> grid, just wanted to make one comment. To help you understand, part of - a MAJOR part of - the allure of an affair *IS* to find a closet to have sex in. Ever watch Gray's Anatomy? It's the hiding, the sneaking, the 'let's do it quick before they catch us in here!' stuff.


Thanks for bringing that up, Turnera. There's also the point that a wandering spouse does not go bats**t crazy over a single physical encounter. She knows the OM better than that. And better than he can be known from going out with a group including him to smoke a ciggy.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

The part that is being ignored, with some of the advice, is there are currently three adults in a relationship and it is currently 2 vs 1. He will not change that number with a few hugs and a pat on the back. This is why people were against Plan A, even those that believe it can work. It fails at a high rate when the spouse is competing with a person who has no flaws.

No, don't want to hear it. The affair partner has no flaws because the cheater only sees the best parts of that person.


----------



## GusPolinski

daisygirl 41 said:


> My H had an affair with a co worker on and off for 4 years. He hurt her and messed her around as much as he did me, but every single time he wanted her back, she dropped her husband without a second thought. She was pathetic. I know for a fact she would still do it and is only back with her husband because she got dumped again. Is that the wife you want?
> You need to show her you can live without her. File for divorce, even if you don't mean it, you can't nice her out of this!


This would be your *ex*-husband, correct?


----------



## LongWalk

jld said:


> Maybe her confession was a subconscious cry for help.


This is an entirely reasonable hypothesis. 

Any person in an affair who is not entirely delusional understands that they have lost control. Mrs Gridcom may have divulged all sorts criticisms of her husband to OM. When she was complaining to him about her Gridcom, it was self justification. When OM glibly repeated these criticisms back to her. She may have been shocked.

"He does not care about my feelings. He treats like a nothing when making decisions."

"Your husband doesn't deserve you. He doesn't care about your feelings. Everyone at work can see how smart you are and he treats you like a dummy."

Perhaps hearing OM say this stuff made her feel uncomfortable because it was not true. It was at best a gross over simplification that she felt was unfair.

A bookkeeper who is embezzling from an employer who treats him well, whose colleagues depend on him, may wish the crime to vanish, but it is a fact. Every Friday the missing money is somehow rolled over undetected. The bookkeeper may wish to confess. Unlike cheating spouses, they never get to keep their positions.

Gridcom's WW is in no way a horrible cheater. She has not snuck out at night to have sex in truck. She is not getting drunk. She has not called the police to put restraining order on him and get him kicked out of the house. She going to church. She is embarrassed if not fully remorseful.

jld, you want to believe that she still loves him. If only he can lead her out of the mess, she will clap her hands and hug him. This may or may not be. Kolors' story resonated with Gridcom because he could feel that Kolors' wife could be reached and that it was tragic that they failed to grasp hands at the right moment.

ButtPunch said that it was too late for Turnera's letter. If Gridcom had come up with that right after Dday, it might have worked. But this is all speculation.

One thing jld may be right about is that Gridcom's wife fears that the truth will be unbearable for him and therefore she no longer believes that reconciliation has a realistic chance. But in the same breath it must also destroy her opinion of him that he can just take her back. 

But as ButtPunch stated trying to orchestrate an outcome at this point is foolish. Ending the unhealthy relationship is the only right way to go.

I wish I played the drums. Great way to get to 50 thousand feet. But no one is stopping me from taking up the drums but me myself.


----------



## Ripper

jld said:


> You might want to take a look at this, grid:
> 
> When your wife cheats on You | Brian and Anne Bercht


Actually read it. A few points I could understand, then I found this;

_"When a wife cheats it is more likely that the husband has failed her in the marriage in some way, than when the husband cheats. When the husband cheats it is more likely nothing to do with his wife, or satisfaction in his marriage."_

You just can't make this **** up.

Honestly, the more I am exposed to it, the more I believe the infidelity recovery/marriage counseling industry is simply a huge scam. Right up there with psychic surgery.


----------



## sidney2718

turnera said:


> *sigh*
> 
> I'll just revert back to what I always end up telling you, jld. Your advice is more harmful than beneficial because the rest of us don't live in the land of unicorns and rainbows like you and dug. What works for you two doesn't even come close to working for us mortals. In fact, it gives poor saps like grid false hope that he can nice her back while she's writing love poems to her boy lover. So in the so-important first weeks/months of an affair, when he DOES have a chance to pry her loose from her lover, he's - because of his all-too-common BH fear of losing his woman - clinging on to your misguided advice that if he would just be Superman and Ghandi and Dug, she'd gasp and smack her forehead and go 'what was I thinking?!'
> 
> Regular women don't work that way. Regular women follow the dictates of regular, well-founded psychological reactions. We want what we can't have, and we barely even NOTICE what's busy throwing itself at our feet.
> 
> Anyway, he's heard this a million times by now, no need to further drag this out. grid, just keep us posted on the latest.


To add just a bit to this, Grid's wife knows what she's done and she knows what she's doing. She doesn't have to be told that she's not following the no contact rules. She knows that. She also strongly suspects that nothing will come of it.

Grid's job is to show her that she's wrong.

He doesn't need more data. He doesn't need proof. There's nobody to convince. She knows better what she's done than he does. It is divorce time.


----------



## gridcom

Getting a hold of my emotions is THE issue, isnt it? I mean, for me to worry about me. Nvrmnd the affair for a minute. When talking about emotionally abusive, you can actually say that I have been emotionally abusing myself (for quite some time). That's not to say I walk around like this freak. I go long, long periods of time where I'm fine, she's fine, everyone is fine and happy. But, once there is a clash, there is where the unbearable man comes out. I think I am doing enough, reading enough, and FEELING enough that I am getting better

but, in this specific situation, you are throwing a wounded person into the deep end of a marital and family crisis and asking him to overcome issues that are going to take time.

Self diagnosis brought to you by the NY Mets


----------



## turnera

My H manages a band and they practice here. The drummer keeps his drums here. I keep wishing to have a day alone here so I could just sit down and play. 

DD25 played the drums in high school. We finally sold her set cos she'd moved on to other things. But it was pretty cool. She used to do this annual charity thing where all these drummers would come together under one roof and drum away, so cool: https://www.facebook.com/texasbigbeat


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> He just needs to set an example. By working on his own issues, like getting control of his emotions, she will see that he is serious about improving the marriage.
> 
> Did you read the link I just provided?


I agree that he needs to get control of his emotions but his wife isn't going to see it right now. She's all wrapped up in "OM good, Grid bad."

Here's what I would do. I would project a calm resolute demeanor with a touch of sadness. I would pursue divorce but leave the door open to reconciliation if she agrees to quit the job and go true NC. I would not agree to any counseling until that happens. I would also not agree to mediation. Mediation would make divorce easier, more palatable. I would make divorce as scary as possible. I would make sure that a divorce is so terrifying to her that she rethinks her choices. I wouldn't be mean and I certainly wouldn't act happy. I would follow that course as if I had no other choice. Unless his wife is completely bonkers or so far gone that she just wants out I believe she'll start second guessing herself and walk through that open door. That's when I would go full bore with jld's course of action, display strength and leadership with a hint of vulnerability. My own opinion is that this is the only way that Grid's marriage has a chance to recover. Of course Grid knows his wife best and only he knows if she is woman enough to give it another try.


----------



## turnera

Ripper said:


> Actually read it. A few points I could understand, then I found this;
> 
> _"When a wife cheats it is more likely that the husband has failed her in the marriage in some way, than when the husband cheats. When the husband cheats it is more likely nothing to do with his wife, or satisfaction in his marriage."_
> 
> You just can't make this **** up.
> 
> Honestly, the more I am exposed to it, the more I believe the infidelity recovery/marriage counseling industry is simply a huge scam. Right up there with psychic surgery.


I actually believe it. Women cheat because they're unhappy. Men cheat because they're horndogs and want more/better/new sex. (or more admiration)

Doesn't mean the solution is to kiss her ass back to the marriage.


----------



## Thundarr

phillybeffandswiss said:


> The part that is being ignored, with some of the advice, is there are currently three adults in a relationship and it is currently 2 vs 1. He will not change that number with a few hugs and a pat on the back. This is why people were against Plan A, even those that believe it can work. It fails at a high rate when the spouse is competing with a person who has no flaws.
> 
> No, don't want to hear it. The affair partner has no flaws because the cheater only sees the best parts of that person.


I notice this too Philly. It's as if Grid's wife still seeing the OM on a daily basis doesn't matter. The reality is that there's a real person going through a lot of pain and searching for answers and he came to TAM because his life is upside down and scary. He needs to know that many others have gone through this and that no-contact is widely accepted as a critical part of valid reconciliation. Widely accepted by people who actually deal with issues of infidelity and not just who ever decides to post opinions on a forum.


----------



## bfree

And just to add. Use less words. Action, action, action. Don't tell her how awful divorce is, show her. Start dividing assets. Start selling off unused items. Start canceling family trips, children's music lessons, etc. But don't do it in a vengeful way. Do it in a way that denotes reluctance and acceptance. But always leave that door open. "I know this sucks but I wish I knew how WE can avoid it."

Don't tell her you're going to counseling. Just go. Show her you are in control of yourself and the situation even if you don't feel like you're in control. Be the rock.


----------



## bfree

Oh and just to add another comment. What jld is suggesting CAN work and in fact HAS worked right here on TAM. What she is advocating is pretty much what B1 did in his marriage after EI's affair. But it only started working AFTER EI established full NC with her affair partner. It is not exactly the conventional TAM approach but as B1 said it was what was right for him and EI.


----------



## turnera

Which is why we keep pushing that she either quit her job so that he can then show her he's changed or he moves on and lets her come to that decision on her own.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

bfree said:


> Oh and just to add another comment. What jld is suggesting CAN work and in fact HAS worked right here on TAM. What she is advocating is pretty much what B1 did in his marriage after EI's affair. But it only started working AFTER EI established full NC with her affair partner. It is not exactly the conventional TAM approach but as B1 said it was what was right for him and EI.


How she advocates rarely, if ever, works. What she advocates can work. Therein lies the problem of many of these derails and arguments . 

Very few have said it won't work. What has been said, repeatedly, is it will not work with another person in the middle of the marriage.


----------



## LongWalk

Weren't Conrad and ReGroup Mets fans? Chuck collects baseball cards.

Bfree is right. Time to act. Make a list of assets. Is the house underwater? Can either of you afford to buy the other out with help from family?

Pension plans.

This discussion is not a negotiating position to force her into reconciliation.


----------



## bfree

LongWalk said:


> Weren't Conrad and ReGroup Mets fans? Chuck collects baseball cards.
> 
> Bfree is right. Time to act. Make a list of assets. Is the house underwater? Can either of you afford to buy the other out with help from family?
> 
> Pension plans.
> 
> This discussion is not a negotiating position to force her into reconciliation.


No but it might bring her clarity about the reality of the situation giving Grid an opening.


----------



## bfree

phillybeffandswiss said:


> How she advocates rarely, if ever, works. What she advocates can work. Therein lies the problem of many of these derails and arguments .
> 
> Very few have said it won't work. What has been said, repeatedly, is it will not work with another person in the middle of the marriage.


Correct. And I know jld has brought up Wazza as someone who started the reconciliation process whilst his wife was still actively involved in an affair. She might be right but I was under the impression that the affair was over, Mrs Wazza just hadn't admitted to it or given him the pertinent details. If I'm right (and I'm almost positive I am) then it's another case of jld's suggestion working but only after NC was established.


----------



## jld

My understanding is that Wazza just waited it out. I don't know any details.


----------



## Thundarr

bfree said:


> Correct. And I know jld has brought up Wazza as someone who started the reconciliation process whilst his wife was still actively involved in an affair. She might be right but I was under the impression that the affair was over, Mrs Wazza just hadn't admitted to it or given him the pertinent details. If I'm right (and I'm almost positive I am) then it's another case of jld's suggestion working but only after NC was established.


To avoid re-writing history, there is likely a professor out there still preying on married students because this was not exposed.


----------



## Evinrude58

Some of this rings clearly of "women who are mistreated cheat, men who cheat are just a-holes". It seems to me that if a woman were so mistreated by a man, she would not be thinking "let me spread my legs for this other guy who I barely know ".. She might actually be very leery of men for a while. But I'm sure some psychologist will refute my "illogical" idea. 

As to grid's situation: it would be nice if he could file, then fear would drive his wife to try to pursue a real relationship with the OM. This would almost surely be a failure because the OM wouldn't want to to take care of her, or the affair would just lose it's flavor for him since it would be a normal relationship. Then she might come back to grid. The question I ask myself, and what Grid will eventually ask himself is: "do I really want a woman that is capable of doing what she has done"? 
The answer SHOULD be a resounding no. But I'll bet he's not really able to answer it with a no, because he's understandably still in love with the woman he swore to love forever. He's not a quitter, nor a man who easily breaks his word. 
It's a shame how these WW cause a man to be placed in a position where his best qualities of love and loyalty are his worst enemy.
File Grid. You have no choice. Your lawyer will advise you on how to equitably split your stuff up. Now is when you need a lawyer, not after her pos friends put their advice in her ear and she breaks you financially.
Once you are safe, you can hope she will willingly return to you. As long as you let her, she will cake eat. You and I both know, as well as your wife, that this kid is not going to marry her. The other man would have to be a fool to think this is the only time she's ever going to cheat on her man. A quandry I bet more than one. Man has considered. 
Good luck grid.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

bfree said:


> Correct. And I know jld has brought up Wazza as someone who started the reconciliation process whilst his wife was still actively involved in an affair.


It's why I no longer engage, too much cherry picking and semantics. Considering he has used words like "gave up" and "stayed for the kids," I'm sure he fits the bill of taking it all on his shoulders and soldiering on. 

I think he has great insight, but leaving out his pain and repeated posts about not knowing if he'll stay is mighty convenient.


----------



## jld

Another good quote from that last link:

_When your wife cheats on you it may be difficult to get her to give up her affair and to be willing to put effort into the marriage. She may have felt hurt for a long time. You’ll need to find healthy ways to express your anger without abusing or harming her (or anyone else).

If you hope to restore your marriage, you may need to be willing to grow and become a better man through this process, and put effort into winning her heart back._


----------



## LongWalk

Are there cheaters who end affairs of their own accord? Sure.

You only have to go to Loveshack or SI and you can read threads from the wayward spouses point of view.

There are men and women who tire of their affair and quit it.

Sometime OM or OW even blackmails them into continuing it.

There are women business executives who are members of product launch projects that compel them to work way more than 40 hours per week. They are thrust into team building exercises that are designed to deepen emotional relationships with team members of the opposite sex. It's hardly surprising that when they have to work in hotels over weekends in other cities they cheat. Some are probably disgusted with themselves afterwards and don't need to confess and go to therapy to feel that they have let themselves and their spouses down.


----------



## LongWalk

Here is the text quote from a psychiatrist named Frank Pittman. The woman who quotes it is trying to help cheating woman break off her affair.



> "The second kind of mask is a little more complicated, as this aspect involves a projected-type of mask. As the mid-life spouse is facing the aspect or aspects of the “child" during the mid-life affair (that can exist during Replay), they can superimpose a “mask” across the other woman/other man.
> 
> This is designed to aid in the “mirroring behaviors” that exist during the mid-life affair. This kind of “mask” also enables them to view the affair partner as the mid-life spouse chooses to.
> 
> This is a necessary part of the behavioral “mirroring aspect” between the mid-life spouse, and the affair partner. They will often “mirror” each other’s behavior for the purpose of avoiding accountability. Because the foundation of an affair is built upon deception in the first place, both people are showing only what they want the other to see.
> 
> "However, the affair partner is not always an exact “fit,” so the mid-life spouse will make use of this projected type of mask in order to compensate for what is lacking in their affair partner. It is an attempt to “remake” the affair partner into perfection as opposed to accepting any imperfections, as human beings are not perfect in any sense.
> 
> When the time is right, the “mask” that is projected upon the other woman/other man will eventually slip off, exposing the affair partner fully, due to the various changes within the mid-life spouse’s state of mind, and a readiness to move forward within the crisis itself.
> 
> Once this “mask” dissolves completely, the affair will move toward a time of final breakdown.
> Time is one factor within the dissolution of both kinds of masks, and a willingness to outgrow the self-deception necessary to maintain each kind of “mask” that is worn or projected by the mid-life spouse during this time.


----------



## Thundarr

jld said:


> Another good quote from that last link:
> 
> _When your wife cheats on you it may be difficult to get her to give up her affair and to be willing to put effort into the marriage. She may have felt hurt for a long time. You’ll need to find healthy ways to express your anger without abusing or harming her (or anyone else).
> 
> If you hope to restore your marriage, you may need to be willing to grow and become a better man through this process, and put effort into winning her heart back._


The premise of this quote is to become a better person; to fix yourself; to get your partner to value you enough to want to try again. These are good goals IMO. The goal requires wisdom, empathy, and principle. There inevitably will be no place for lack of NC.


----------



## Keepin-my-head-up

Hey, I have the perfect solution.
Why don't we just stop and let JLD handle this?

If it doesn't work then case closed.
If it does, well then what?

Me personally, I've been there.
I don't believe anyone has the perfect marriage, not even jld.
I don't take diet and workout advice from fat people and don't take guitar lessons from those who've never played.

But she seems to have gotten thru the most to him and I cannot say one hundred percent that what she is saying won't work.
It didn't work for me but it may work for Grid and that is the path he is choosing.

Whatever path you choose bro.
Just choose one.

And not choosing is choosing, or something like that. 

Go Dodgers


----------



## GusPolinski

Keepin-my-head-up said:


> Hey, I have the perfect solution.
> Why don't we just stop and let JLD handle this?
> 
> If it doesn't work then case closed.
> If it does, well then what?
> 
> Me personally, I've been there.
> I don't believe anyone has the perfect marriage, not even jld.
> I don't take diet and workout advice from fat people and don't take guitar lessons from those who've never played.
> 
> *But she seems to have gotten thru the most to him* and I cannot say one hundred percent that what she is saying won't work.
> It didn't work for me but it may work for Grid and that is the path he is choosing.
> 
> Whatever path you choose bro.
> Just choose one.
> 
> And not choosing is choosing, or something like that.


The problem w/ ^this^ is that none of it will get through to grid's WW. And that's what matters.



Keepin-my-head-up said:


> Go Dodgers


And w/ that final stroke, you lose all credibility.


----------



## Keepin-my-head-up

GusPolinski said:


> Keepin-my-head-up said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey, I have the perfect solution.
> Why don't we just stop and let JLD handle this?
> 
> If it doesn't work then case closed.
> If it does, well then what?
> 
> Me personally, I've been there.
> I don't believe anyone has the perfect marriage, not even jld.
> I don't take diet and workout advice from fat people and don't take guitar lessons from those who've never played.
> 
> *But she seems to have gotten thru the most to him* and I cannot say one hundred percent that what she is saying won't work.
> It didn't work for me but it may work for Grid and that is the path he is choosing.
> 
> Whatever path you choose bro.
> Just choose one.
> 
> And not choosing is choosing, or something like that.
> 
> 
> 
> The problem w/ ^this^ is that none of it will get through to grid's WW. And that's what matters.
> 
> 
> 
> Keepin-my-head-up said:
> 
> 
> 
> Go Dodgers
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And w/ that final stroke, you lose all credibility.
Click to expand...



Guess I'm just frustrated.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

bfree said:


> I agree that he needs to get control of his emotions but his wife isn't going to see it right now. She's all wrapped up in "OM good, Grid bad."
> 
> Here's what I would do. I would project a calm resolute demeanor with a touch of sadness. I would pursue divorce but leave the door open to reconciliation if she agrees to quit the job and go true NC. I would not agree to any counseling until that happens. I would also not agree to mediation. Mediation would make divorce easier, more palatable. I would make divorce as scary as possible. I would make sure that a divorce is so terrifying to her that she rethinks her choices. I wouldn't be mean and I certainly wouldn't act happy. I would follow that course as if I had no other choice. Unless his wife is completely bonkers or so far gone that she just wants out I believe she'll start second guessing herself and walk through that open door. That's when I would go full bore with jld's course of action, display strength and leadership with a hint of vulnerability. My own opinion is that this is the only way that Grid's marriage has a chance to recover. Of course Grid knows his wife best and only he knows if she is woman enough to give it another try.



^^^ This....

Great blend bfree


----------



## Chaparral

T


----------



## lifeistooshort

She's going to need to quit her job regardless. If they split up it doesn't pay enough for her to manage and if they stay together it's toxic.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

lifeistooshort said:


> She's going to need to quit her job regardless. If they split up it doesn't pay enough for her to manage and if they stay together it's toxic.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Grid has already tried to tell her that but she's not listening. IMO, she's hanging onto that job because it's the one stable part of her life. The only way she's going to leave that job is if she's forced out (fired) or if the consequences of staying become unpalatable (divorce.)


----------



## turnera

Which is why he needs to come up with the numbers to show her what her monthly 'bill' is going to be as a single.


----------



## gridcom

lifeistooshort said:


> She's going to need to quit her job regardless. If they split up it doesn't pay enough for her to manage and if they stay together it's toxic.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I've been saying this for weeks. She doesnt listen. She doesnt understand. She thinks she'll take all my money, have the house, have freedom, and leave me with absolutely nothing. She thinks 22k per year plus 1/2 of what I was contributing is enough for her to keep the house in one of Top 5 most expensive counties to live in this country. My kids will be eating dirt and she'll be asking for more and more. Or she'll get a job and.....you know what's next.....she'll blame ME for all of it, her not seeing her kids, her kids being angry, and her physically not being to handle the job.

It's outrageous

Don't worry, I've protected myself more than she thinks. My future is important to me


----------



## cbnero

Your wife has lost her mind. Run Forrest!


----------



## lifeistooshort

It's not really up to you to convince her of that, you're not her father. It was just an observation on my part..... she is a grown woman. Part of you letting go and not controlling is letting her figure these things out.

I'm glad you've protected yourself, this is part of the reason I think you should file. Letting her now control everything isn't good for anyone including her as it lets her bury her head in the sand.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> I've been saying this for weeks. She doesnt listen. She doesnt understand. She thinks she'll take all my money, have the house, have freedom, and leave me with absolutely nothing. She thinks 22k per year plus 1/2 of what I was contributing is enough for her to keep the house in one of Top 5 most expensive counties to live in this country. My kids will be eating dirt and she'll be asking for more and more. Or she'll get a job and.....you know what's next.....she'll blame ME for all of it, her not seeing her kids, her kids being angry, and her physically not being to handle the job.
> 
> It's outrageous
> 
> Don't worry, I've protected myself more than she thinks. My future is important to me


I've seen this before on TAM. She doesn't get it. She will get it when they lawyers start talking 50% custody, how little money she will actually get from you, selling the house. She needs to see all of this. However, Despite what Turnera says she doesn't need to see it from you. Any spreadsheet showing finances from you will be looked at as manipulation. She has got to be in a room with lawyers.

Your days of trying to convince her of anything are over......

Wait until she finds out if she wants to keep the house she has to buy out your portion of the equity. LOL she has a lot to learn.


----------



## bfree

gridcom said:


> I've been saying this for weeks. She doesnt listen. She doesnt understand. She thinks she'll take all my money, have the house, have freedom, and leave me with absolutely nothing. She thinks 22k per year plus 1/2 of what I was contributing is enough for her to keep the house in one of Top 5 most expensive counties to live in this country. My kids will be eating dirt and she'll be asking for more and more. Or she'll get a job and.....you know what's next.....she'll blame ME for all of it, her not seeing her kids, her kids being angry, and her physically not being to handle the job.
> 
> It's outrageous
> 
> Don't worry, I've protected myself more than she thinks. My future is important to me


She's not going to listen to you grid. It's all just words to her. She'll never hear it enough to see whether it's true or not. There are none so deaf as those that will not hear. There are none so blind as those that will not see. Stop trying to convince her of anything. It just makes you look pathetic and needy. Start preparing for an eventual divorce. Maybe once she sees the truth from someone else (lawyer) the fog might lift.


----------



## bfree

Why do I get the feeling that the OM is coaching (encouraging) her? If that's the case, and I'd bet it is, he's going to lose a lot of credibility with her once she receives that dose of reality.


----------



## MRR

gridcom said:


> I've been saying this for weeks. She doesnt listen. She doesnt understand. She thinks she'll take all my money, have the house, have freedom, and leave me with absolutely nothing. She thinks 22k per year plus 1/2 of what I was contributing is enough for her to keep the house in one of Top 5 most expensive counties to live in this country. My kids will be eating dirt and she'll be asking for more and more. Or she'll get a job and.....you know what's next.....she'll blame ME for all of it, her not seeing her kids, her kids being angry, and her physically not being to handle the job.
> 
> It's outrageous
> 
> Don't worry, I've protected myself more than she thinks. My future is important to me


That is part of your problem-- you've been SAYING something for WEEKS. 

In those weeks, you could have been doing something, namely getting divorce papers to her to sign. She doesn't care what you say, so quit saying it to her. 

Besides, what if she did believe you? You want to stay with a POS who only stays with you for financial reasons? She doesn't love you, she doesn't respect you-- if she did stay it would be only for financial stability. 

And frankly, you would have to wonder every day if today is the day she cheats on you again, with someone who can support her financially, and actually wants to. Because if that happens, it is going to hurt 100x worse.


----------



## gridcom

Doing the money........ She said I cant move out because she cant live on 50% of my money, so even though she had an affair, she needs me to stay.

Yep.


----------



## jld

gridcom said:


> Doing the money........ She said I cant move out because she cant live on 50% of my money, so even though she had an affair, she needs me to stay.
> 
> Yep.


Some reality setting in.


----------



## weightlifter

gridcom said:


> Doing the money........ She said I cant move out because she cant live on 50% of my money, so even though she had an affair, she needs me to stay.
> 
> Yep.


SHE needs YOU to stay for money???
cry me a river.


----------



## MRR

gridcom said:


> Doing the money........ She said I cant move out because she cant live on 50% of my money, so even though she had an affair, she needs me to stay.
> 
> Yep.


So basically she doesn't have a problem screwing other men, she has no respect for you, but for financial reasons, she will keep you around. 

Personally, I would not want to be with someone who is not enthusiastic about being with me. And yes I have kids and have been through divorce-- and it took going through divorce for me to realize I am worth more.


----------



## ButtPunch

Grid

You do not need to move out until a custody 
agreement has been reached that you are ok with


----------



## convert

weightlifter said:


> SHE needs YOU to stay for money???
> cry me a river.


agreed

heck I think I would get myself fired first


----------



## ConanHub

gridcom said:


> Doing the money........ She said I cant move out because she cant live on 50% of my money, so even though she had an affair, she needs me to stay.
> 
> Yep.


She can do math??!!??
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

lifeistooshort said:


> It's not really up to you to convince her of that, you're not her father. It was just an observation on my part..... she is a grown woman. Part of you letting go and not controlling is letting her figure these things out.


This is the part he refuses to understand. I blame this on the analogies about the fog and addiction talk.


----------



## bfree

gridcom said:


> Doing the money........ She said I cant move out because she cant live on 50% of my money, so even though she had an affair, she needs me to stay.
> 
> Yep.


Then there is your leverage. Ask her if her comment is a plea for you to try to work it out with her. If so then tell her she quits her job TODAY! She agrees to and takes concrete steps to go full and complete NC TODAY! If you are still looking to reconcile this is where it starts. Don't let this moment pass you by.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Do NOT let her friend zone you.... aka roommates. She doesn't get to screw someone else and not feel consequences. She has show you it is NOT safe to entrust yourself to her, therefore, living as roommates is not possible at this juncture.


----------



## lifeistooshort

ButtPunch said:


> I've seen this before on TAM. She doesn't get it. She will get it when they lawyers start talking 50% custody, how little money she will actually get from you, selling the house. She needs to see all of this. However, Despite what Turnera says she doesn't need to see it from you. Any spreadsheet showing finances from you will be looked at as manipulation. She has got to be in a room with lawyers.
> 
> Your days of trying to convince her of anything are over......
> 
> Wait until she finds out if she wants to keep the house she has to buy out your portion of the equity. LOL she has a lot to learn.


I agree. You have no more credibility in her eyes. 

She may or may not have to buy him out though, in my divorce I was allowed to keep the house without buying him out with the understanding that if I sold it he'd get half the equity and if I still had it when the youngest turned 18 I'd either buy him out or sell. But i did have to make the payments. 

As it turned out he bought me out for a very good deal (for him) and he now lives there with very low mortgage payments. 

Grid, get this thing going legally. When she has a lawyer set her straight on what she's really going to get she may decide she wants back in. Be careful with that though because it's likely false.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lifeistooshort

gridcom said:


> Doing the money........ She said I cant move out because she cant live on 50% of my money, so even though she had an affair, she needs me to stay.
> 
> Yep.


I'm sorry, the ahole part of me would tempted to respond with "you can need with one hand and fvck yourself with the other and see which one pays off for you first".

Fyi, I did use a version of this on my ex. Well that and "fvck you and the horse you rode in on".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ButtPunch

lifeistooshort said:


> I agree. You have no more credibility in her eyes.
> 
> She may or may not have to buy him out though, in my divorce I was allowed to keep the house without buying him out with the understanding that if I sold it he'd get half the equity and if I still had it when the youngest turned 18 I'd either buy him out or sell. But i did have to make the payments.
> 
> As it turned out he bought me out for a very good deal (for him) and he now lives there with very low mortgage payments.
> 
> Grid, get this thing going legally. When she has a lawyer set her straight on what she's really going to get she may decide she wants back in. Be careful with that though because it's likely false.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's an even better deal. Equity keeps going up and WS is making all the payments.


----------



## bfree

lifeistooshort said:


> I'm sorry, the ahole part of me would tempted to respond with "you can need with one hand and fvck yourself with the other and see which one pays off for you first".
> 
> Fyi, I did use a version of this on my ex. Well that and "fvck you and the horse you rode in on".
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She can't afford a horse.


----------



## LongWalk

Your wife should go to the bank and offer her Spotify play list as second mortgage collateral.

Are you going to wait until she files for divorce?

Are you going to church together on Sunday?

Because your wife is being so unreasonable you need to laugh at her often. Not in a mean or snide way, just repeat her nonsense back to her in a calm voice and invite her to chuckle at the insanity of her arithmetic. Irony (not sarcasm) is one of the best weapons against wilful stupidity.

One betrayed husband wrote about the return his wayward wife. The kids were overjoyed to have their mother back and the husband was quietly hopeful. But to remind himself to keep it real he kept telling jokes instead of saying too much. He wrote that was "eating his food." Hilarious. Maybe you had to be there.

A sense of humor and strength of purpose will serve you well either way it goes.

To pull her leg could you play some really ridiculous "ear worm" love songs that are not at all to her taste.

Maybe you can put the Monkees "I'm a believer on" and dance with your daughter while making spaghetti and meat sauce.

Do you want to read a riveting TAM story with a happy ending? I actually recommended to jld but she complained that it was too long.


----------



## Workathome

gridcom said:


> Doing the money........ She said I cant move out because she cant live on 50% of my money, so even though she had an affair, she needs me to stay.
> 
> Yep.


Why does she think she's going to get 50% of your money. You'll need to sell the house and with 50/50 custody, she won't get too much child support. Since you work from home, have you considered asking for full custody? She can still be very involved.


----------



## turnera

LongWalk said:


> Because your wife is being so unreasonable you need to laugh at her often. Not in a mean or snide way, just repeat her nonsense back to her in a calm voice and invite her to chuckle at the insanity of her arithmetic. Irony (not sarcasm) is one of the best weapons against willful stupidity.


Love it. And nothing bugs a wayward more than their betrayed shaking their head in amusement and laughing at them.


----------



## tom67

I would tell her to move in with her boy toy just bring it up very matter of fact.


----------



## LongWalk

That would be one strategy, but you don't want to have her moving back and forth.

Crazy


----------



## ButtPunch

LongWalk said:


> Your wife should go to the bank and offer her Spotify play list as second mortgage collateral.
> Do you want to read a riveting TAM story with a happy ending?


Does it end in divorce or reconciliation? Happy endings aren't mutually exclusive.


----------



## Thundarr

gridcom said:


> Doing the money........ She said I cant move out because she cant live on 50% of my money, so even though she had an affair, she needs me to stay.
> 
> Yep.


This is indicative of her thought pattern. She's not the same person she was before the affair. She can now take any subject and apply "whatever" or "oh well" to it. I cheated "oh well". You didn't deserve it "whatever". I still need your money "oh well, whatever". I can pretend we might work things out just to keep you around "oh well". In her mind, she's more enlightened now. You should understand and the kids should understand that she deserves everything she wants. It's not her fault but yours or someone else's. The heart wants what the heart wants.

This is what people mean when talking about affair fog. You should understand how she's thinking Grid and how she see you.


----------



## truster

gridcom said:


> Doing the money........ She said I cant move out because she cant live on 50% of my money, so even though she had an affair, she needs me to stay.
> 
> Yep.


Jesus, you really have to laugh at this sort of stuff. I'm right there with you.. the good news is that conversations like this really drive home the fact that it's 100% about them now, and they will put you through whatever it takes to get what they want. Why is that good news? Because once that sinks in emotionally (takes a little longer than sinking in logically, unfortunately), it's much easier to detach and do what's needed to provide the wake-up call. Ironically, the worse they behave, the easier things are on you.

It'll get more ridiculous. It's good to hear that you're protecting yourself, because I'm here to tell you that after conversations like the above, she will have no compunctions lying for financial gain in court. I'm living it. But, there's some good advice I've gained here that has really helped to financially prepare for this:

1. Talk to a lawyer. All further advice should be run through the lawyer, because things are different in every state.

2. See if you're in a fault state, where proof of adultery eliminates alimony. If so, GET THAT EVIDENCE. Work with the lawyer to make sure it's court-usable. Alimony over time will be more expensive than anything else.. and it's just an emotional burden to keep writing that check every month to a person who treats you like this.

3. Take half the money out of joint accounts.

4. Put any direct deposits fully in your account, and take over all bill payments. I'd bet she's been wasting some money on herself too.. the cheater's selfish attitude does not seem to generally be limited to just affairs. You may want to still provide a small stipend -- your lawyer will have good advice here. Basically, just make sure her basic needs are met without subsidizing any 'fun'.

5. Put an alert on your credit record to let you know about any new credit cards in your name.

Good luck man.. for what it's worth, I believe you're making positive progress, although I know it seems like spinning in endless circles sometimes. Just keep setting up positive steps and taking them.


----------



## Chaparral

Have you read ODAT's thread? He has accomplished more in five pages than you have in seventy two. Guess what, his wife is trying to save her marriage.

Check out the other posters that have been inspired to follow his lead.

If I remember correctly and you work from home, why are you leaving. Tell her you will fight for custody either way.

What state do you live in?


----------



## daisygirl 41

GusPolinski said:


> This would be your *ex*-husband, correct?


No, still my huband


----------



## happyman64

So Gridcom it has been a few months of pain, rejection, sheer craziness and ever lasting selfishness on your wayward wife's part.

When will you decide to stick a fork in the marriage and hold it over the flame?

Because you my friend have not shown her one solid consequence for her crappy decisions.

And she knows it.

When will your BS meter finally reach the red limit?

What is your plan to end the infidelity in your marriage?

You keep thinking to yourself "when will she see the damage she has done to us, our marriage, our family, our finances, our future?"

Guess what? 

She will not see or feel the damage until you gone, divorced, the home us sold and she is working a full time job because she did not get full custody or enough alimony.

I would think after a few months you would be ready for your wife to feel some real pain.

Will you and your kids share in that pain?

No way around that.

But there is no way around infidelity. Only through it. And your entire family will go through it.

It is after all a highly selfish decision that a person makes with no or very little consideration shown the BS or the kids.

Now act. Show her the pain. Before you lose your mind.

HM


----------



## sidney2718

Workathome said:


> Why does she think she's going to get 50% of your money. You'll need to sell the house and with 50/50 custody, she won't get too much child support. Since you work from home, have you considered asking for full custody? She can still be very involved.


No, he needs to talk to a lawyer. There are rules for these things and one violates them at their risk.

The quickest way to bring reality into her life is to file for divorce. It will still take a fair while but if you and she can work out an agreement on how to split things (a mediated divorce, if allowed in your state) the expense should not be too great.


----------



## happyman64

:iagree:

Exactly. Because when left with a selfish, remorseless spouse that is your only option IMO.


----------



## ButtPunch

Chaparral said:


> Have you read ODAT's thread? He has accomplished more in five pages than you have in seventy two. Guess what, his wife is trying to save her marriage.
> 
> Check out the other posters that have been inspired to follow his lead.
> 
> If I remember correctly and you work from home, why are you leaving. Tell her you will fight for custody either way.
> 
> What state do you live in?


Definitely read the ODAT thread. Handled his ww like a boss. Same 
problem with wife and coworker.


----------



## Evinrude58

Once you discover the reality of life after divorce, unless you are just a total loser, you will see that it's not all that bad. It is very likely that you can choose to upgrade to a much nicer, more loyal, much more accomplished model. There are countless women out there in your age range that have been through this with a wayward husband, and will appreciate a loyal man. There are also countless women out there that did exactly what your wife has done and are now single, and given the opportunity, will do it to you. Beware of those. I hope for your own sanity and happiness, that you get divorced as soon as possible from a woman that sees you only as a paycheck coming in. It's sickening how she things of you and how you are treated. For the good of all involved, divorce her.


----------



## intuitionoramiwrong

ButtPunch said:


> Definitely read the ODAT thread. Handled his ww like a boss. Same
> problem with wife and coworker.


Yes. Do this. Here is a quote from page 3 of this thread - 

Its been 5 days since I submitted a formal complaint against her and OM to her employer. It only took two before he was fired. She was also reprimanded but did not lose her job. I did not wait for her to find out that I was the one who sent the phone logs and pics to HR. The fallout was magnificent. For the first time I saw genuine shame in her eyes. I don't know why but I felt like a huge power shift had just taken place and I decided not to stop there. I called her parents and told them. Her mother and father both sides with me and immediately called her. They have been married 34 years and they told us a story that this very sent this g happened to them 7 years into there marriage. We were both floored as they seem like they have the perfect relationship. After the phone call I not only saw the genuine shame but for the first time I saw genuine remorse. But I also saw something in myself that wasn't there before I exposed her. I saw doubt, doubt that I even want to give her another chance. I came all this way though so we have agreed to seek both separate and couples counseling. I'm still hurt but I feel like I have gained allies. Hearing from her own mother who cheated that many years ago she was finally able to see through the fog and she won't atop apologizing and crying. You'd think that would make me happy but all it does is confuse me as to if I want to keep this together. I think deep down I still do and that's why counseling is our next step. I know I have a long road to travel with this but I'm no longer afraid of losing her. Thanks for all the advice on her. I wouldn't have exposed her had it not been from these forums.


----------



## LongWalk

Gridcom,

Reread what you once wrote:



gridcom said:


> Tonight was not a good night. After all of your advice tonight, I once again ignored it all and tried to reason with her that giving this marriage every last chance to work was the only proper solution. She's not having it and during the conversation you could clearly tell she was coming from a place of great anger and vindictiveness. *She admitted that she was trying to hurt me by being so open about the affair, hoping to "send me over the edge" and act promptly in anger.*
> 
> Again, I know you all have really heard enough about this, but I am really trying to do the right thing for my children. To me, it's them first. It really is. This move will devistate them both emotionally and functionally. They will grow up poor kids in a rich town. We are already pretty much on the low end of finances in a financially viable community and cannot afford many things that our childrens peers have, and this is only going to make it way worse.
> 
> Tonight it was clear to me that my wife is in a real dark place, not *just with me but in her life*. *I am the cause of this.* I let her down. I didnt give this woman the love she deserved, All true. But, she is coming from a real dark place, a vengeful place, an unhealthy place, and a place that is ultimately going to harm my children. I CANNOT SIT BACK AND WATCH THIS HAPPEN AND DO NOTHING. It sucks that I have to cause more chaos in a chaotic situation. That does not generate love and kindness and caring, three things that I lack that I am trying to find in my life. *I am absolutely gutted that my plan will not work; trying to nice her back* into at least giving the marriage another chance.


Now read HappyMan's post:



> So Gridcom it has been a few months of pain, rejection, sheer craziness and ever lasting selfishness on your wayward wife's part.
> 
> When will you decide to stick a fork in the marriage and hold it over the flame?
> 
> Because you my friend have not shown her one solid consequence for her crappy decisions.
> 
> And she knows it.
> 
> When will your BS meter finally reach the red limit?
> 
> What is your plan to end the infidelity in your marriage?
> 
> You keep thinking to yourself "when will she see the damage she has done to us, our marriage, our family, our finances, our future?"
> 
> Guess what?
> 
> She will not see or feel the damage until you gone, divorced, the home us sold and she is working a full time job because she did not get full custody or enough alimony.
> 
> I would think after a few months you would be ready for your wife to feel some real pain.
> 
> Will you and your kids share in that pain?
> 
> No way around that.
> 
> But there is no way around infidelity. Only through it. And your entire family will go through it.
> 
> It is after all a highly selfish decision that a person makes with no or very little consideration shown the BS or the kids.
> 
> Now act. Show her the pain. Before you lose your mind.
> 
> HM


HappyMan is a very balanced advisor. If he were an MC/family therapist, I think he would have a good reputation because he is compassionate and balanced. HappyMan is also quite pro reconciliation. He believes that when people have children, they have a responsibility to save their marriages if there is a good and realistic possibility of success.

When he counsels action it is not the advice of a betrayed husband trying to get back at all cheating wives because of his unresolved anger towards his ex. He is urging you to take the action that is best for your family.

The reason that your wife is in a dark place is because she does not have the courage to tell you what has really happened. She may yet find it. Divorcing your wife is not a declaration that you don't love her. 

If anything, it is the most practical and realistic way to remove OM's mask. He has appeared to your WW as a man who he is not. If there was more substance to him, he would have put down a 10k retainer for your wife's divorce lawyer to blow you out of the race. All he has done is light her cigarettes and scheme to meet up with her at the copy machine. 

Your wife is not in NC. When you file for divorce she will tell OM. The chances are he has not been planning to be a step father. He is not going to provide a soft landing.

But if she runs to him anyway, that tells your chances were never so good to begin with.

HappyMan, jld and others will tell you if your wife expresses genuine remorse.

An addtional note: there are signs that your wife may not have flipped out entirely. She did tell you about the affair without being busted. She has not given you an STD. She is listening to music, not popping pills. She did waste money that blender... maybe you should get out the blender in your kitchen and make some smoothies. Study the blender and ask her how long warranty the wedding present appliance was. If she asks you why, you are curious just mumble that you wonder how long it will last. Ask her which brand is better.


----------



## manfromlamancha

Hi Gridcom, any update ? Hope you are keeping yourself well.


----------



## LongWalk

Perhaps it was an eventful weekend. I wonder if they still made it to church as a family.


----------



## Ckone1800

gridcom said:


> Doing the money........ She said I cant move out because she cant live on 50% of my money, so even though she had an affair, she needs me to stay.
> 
> Yep.


I hope you are doing okay. I have pretty much stayed to my own thread, but reading so many others. I hope you will allow me to throw in my opinion as well, we have much in common. 

First, I want you to know that we all feel your pain here. That explains why so many people feel the need to express their perspective as fact, rather than opinion. You may have a tendency to defend yourself, and refuse to act in a way to show yourself you can be defiant. Please know that everyone here is simply trying to help you help YOURSELF. That's the whole point. 

You are here for yourself, even if you disguise it as a way to save your marriage. I understand completely. I just wanted to let you know that this is a team effort, and you can feel confident that no one here will leave you stranded, especially if you take the steps to help YOURSELF. 

Second, I have read your thread. I have to be honest here, it appears as though you do not have the courage to get what you really want out of life. That's okay, you can build courage. Taking small steps can help you gain confidence, and enough confidence can help you know that everything will be okay. Either way. 

I do not have a ton of experience with infidelity, but I can honestly express that you will have a very difficult time getting your wife to comprehend the situation while holding on to her. You have to let go. Make sure to let those thoughts about what she has done to you sink in. Think about how you would behave if you were the one propositioned for an affair. 

Understanding what your WW is capable of doing is a good step to helping you detach. If you can get some detachment, you can build your courage. You need this, even if you want to rebuild your marriage, you need this. 

I wish you the best, and I hope that you can follow the consensus here at TAM. I know it is difficult not to hang on to some feedback that affirms your own thoughts, but try to think outside the box. Accept some of the more harsh advice and give some of it a try. It will be hard at first, but after time you will be able to see the results. 

Take care!


----------



## LongWalk

Well Gridcom has been gone a week. Everyone can understand that there is such a thing as forum burnout. So many people telling you divorce while other shout wait. On top of it there are even different ways to do the 180. 

Suppose Gridcom were to come back one year from now? Could his thread be like this?

The link goes to Surviving Infidelity. If you posted a link to TAM on SI, you'd be in violation of the rules. TAM is more liberal.

Anyway, I think you'll find this thread interesting because it covers the missing year. I PM'd the OP who was very much like Gridcom and asked him how it turned out.

Also, regarding jld's wait it out strategy. I think that it takes time for a WW to disconnect from an affair; the so-called fog does not just dissipate. Clearing the fog is generally more difficult when the wayward is in contact even if there is no carnal reinforcement.


----------



## gridcom

I'm still here. I am a bit burned out by all the voices, yes. Lots of things have happened in the last week. My wife did file for divorce from me, and simultaneously became more committed to finding a way to reconcile than she ever has before. So, I am seeing my lawyer tomorrow now to deal with these papers and we are going to our first "real" MC session on Saturday morning. She's admittedly taking the attitude that the main reason she wants to make it work is not because she loves me (currently), but because divorce and the fallout from it is way worse than "sucking it up" and finding a way to love each other again. On one hand, this is what I wanted. On the other, I'm starting to feel like it's doomed because of the way reconciliation is starting. Admittedly, this may just be my poor attitude towards her. I have been thinking more and more about letting the divorce happen, just because I think by me fighting as hard as I have, she's lost all respect for me. I have friends of mine who are rougher on her than I am. I think she looks at me like a puppy who she can kick around and I'll still be waiting at the door when she walks in, tail wagging. I don't think she wanted this to happen on purpose, but it's happened. 

I don't know if I could ever really trust her again. I think she could cheat again. She has this attitude that, with the right c*cktail of a situation, ANYONE can cheat. And that is the thought process of someone who thinks at some level it's acceptable. This is weighing on me. That said, lets go to MC and see what happens. But, as she is struggling to muster up the right emotions to invest back into the marriage, I can honestly say I am trying to muster the strength to do the right thing and let the divorce happen. Right thing for me and her. Not the right thing for the kids. The right thing for the kids is sticking around and trying as I have been. We are also over 70k in debt. Way more than I thought. I think when we took a close look at our money last week, it took the wind out of both of our sails. 

I continue to make lots of mistakes, mainly because I think if I stand back and look at it from 10,000 feet I am just full of rage over the whole thing. I keep trying to say I'm not, but I am. I am mad at her, mad at me. Just mad. I am hostile and it comes in waves and no matter how hard I bite my lip, I just rage. When she told me last Friday that she couldnt afford for me to move out, I was so offended by the absolute selfishness of it, I called her a "piece of shyt". So, yeah. Not my best being displayed over here.

Lastly, last Friday i did tell her (or REMIND her) of this place and told her there were over 1000 comments about the biggest decision of her life. I was raging. That whole day was a rage. Her telling me I couldnt move out into getting divorce papers into her telling me that deep down she always wanted to find a way to reconcile was just a mindf*ck and I just couldnt be cool. So, I told her about this thread again and I'm sure she's been here. I havent asked. So, I wanted to take some time and let the link drop to the bottom.


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## turnera

I'm glad you finally found your anger.


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## truster

gridcom said:


> Right thing for me and her. Not the right thing for the kids. The right thing for the kids is sticking around and trying as I have been. We are also over 70k in debt. Way more than I thought. I think when we took a close look at our money last week, it took the wind out of both of our sails.


First, it's not a given that it's not the right thing for the kids. Having two happy parents is much healthier than watching one kick the other around all the time. It'll give them a view on how to set their own boundaries, step away from unacceptable behavior, and hopefully to see a healthy relationship when you commit to the next one.

Second, how did you guys not know you were $70k in debt???


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## gridcom

LongWalk said:


> Also, regarding jld's wait it out strategy. I think that it takes time for a WW to disconnect from an affair; the so-called fog does not just dissipate. Clearing the fog is generally more difficult when the wayward is in contact even if there is not carnal reinforcement.


I think she is trying to disconnect from the AP, but struggling. She's admitted it, which I think is important that she be that frank with me. She doesnt like answering my questions when the true answer makes her look bad. But, I'd rather deal with the honestly of someone who is emotionally wacked out than someone who tries to tell me I am wrong and infuriates me and disrespects me by trying to tell me the sky is pink (it's not).

Because of some weird scheduling at her job, she's avoided working with him until a week from tomorrow, which will be a three week visual seperation. And for those of you who still want to insist they are sneaking when they can, I have a GPS on her phone, I work from home, and I have her whereabouts very much under check. if she is seeing him, she's going above and beyond the effort I could expect from her. In other words, MY reality is she is not seeing him, she's trying to disconnect not because she wants to but because she knows it's the right thing. 

Meanwhile, he continues to add songs to the Spotify playlist he's essentially dedicated to her. Now 31 love songs on a Playlist that started right around the time they made their EA a PA. Every song about lost love, forbidden love, missing love, waiting for the love, waiting for the love to return, where is my love, oh my I cant live without my love, etc etc. I made her remove Spotify from her phone. A bully move. But she did it. Then she added it back on, and I saw it , and I made her delete it again. After she admitted that she added it to check the playlist to see the love songs he's added.

So, in my opinion, here's a guy aggressively trying to pursue a married woman. I tell her that he's trying to hurt my family and trying to hurt my kids, which in a roundabout or not so roundabout way, he is. He would say he just wants this woman, available or not be damned. But, to me, he is attacking my family.

My oldest child is seeing a school psychologist. She told her friends at school what happened, they told their parents, their parents are now asking us if they can help us.

Fun times


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## gridcom

truster said:


> Second, how did you guys not know you were $70k in debt???


I didnt handle the money for the family. She did. That's not to say she did a bad job, I really dont know. I was so busy working and there was a time I did handle it, but I would mess it up and late fee's would happen etc and she took it over. She may have known we were that far in debt, but I didnt. as long as I had enough money for ice cream in my pocket and the netflix and ezpass got paid, I was cool.


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## gridcom

Also, I've been listening to a lot of reggae. It helps


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## truster

gridcom said:


> I didnt handle the money for the family. She did. That's not to say she did a bad job, I really dont know. I was so busy working and there was a time I did handle it, but I would mess it up and late fee's would happen etc and she took it over. She may have known we were that far in debt, but I didnt. as long as I had enough money for ice cream in my pocket and the netflix and ezpass got paid, I was cool.


Yeah, my STBXW was running up debt despite having an *ample* allowance as well, as I discovered once I took the finances back over for the divorce. I suspect the lack of self control / respect for consequences that lead to cheating also tend to make financial irresponsibility more likely.

Just another reason to be glad to be rid of her.. jesus, $70k in debt is insanity.


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## gridcom

Lastly, expect me to post more infrequently. Now that she knows about this place (again) I dont want to get into the habit of writing for her. I can see that happening and unfortunately, that's not a healthy way to communicate. I'll still be checking in and giving you the scoop, but I really need to get my sh*t together over here


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## gridcom

truster said:


> Just another reason to be glad to be rid of her.. jesus, $70k in debt is insanity.


I would file for Bankruptcy upon divorce, no doubt. I may encourage it even if we stay together. We got hit by a few loans that came all at once a few years back and it's been hard to recover. I don't see a way out other than a reset. I can live a very simple life. I have a well paying job. Once I get this behind me, I'll right my own ship


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## phillybeffandswiss

It's hard watching someone chase their tail, while someone sits on the side metaphorically laughing at them. Sorry, but you are looking for a lifeline and she keeps throwing you straws.

Well, good luck.


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## LongWalk

Your wife filed for divorce. That is what she wants or she would not have done it. You should respect that.

However, it is clear that $70,000 in debt has been a major stress point in your relationship. If your debt were to miraculously disappear, would that save your marriage? I don't think so.

Why not accept divorce as the goal of your relationship? Right now you don't have enough money to separate. Why not set down the goal of repairing your finances so that you can afford your freedom? With both of you working towards economic stability perhaps your relationship will improve. 

Your wife should find a better paying job. She should commit to NC with OM.

You should quit yelling at her. Really you were yelling at yourself because you are disappointed in yourself, regardless of the affair. Outbursts of anger are really self disrespect, don't you think?

As divorce being too expensive, well, if you sell the house, you can afford to divorce. But divorce always costs money, since you have to buy all sorts of stuff to set up a new household.

Maybe you can say to her: "Honey, I am going to devote the next year to working harder and smarter and getting out finances in order so that we can have the divorce we both deserve. Let's communicate about our situation and be supportive."

If you clear away debt and keep your temper, your wife may open up to you emotionally again. It will take some time.

But only you can decide if you can stand living together in sexless limbo.

The reason that so many people have followed your thread is because there is something likeable and honest about you. Maybe your wife will come in and offer some corrections. She'll have to be pretty brave because TAM can be merciless towards cheaters. You should not defend her cheating but your can still defend her from critics.

I remember a betrayed husband whose WW had discovered TAM and had secretly read his thread. She popped and introduced herself and people did not trash her because her husband would not allow that even if he was mighty hurt and angry about her affair. Women like to be defended by their husbands. 

In my subjective opinion your wife has good taste in bands and is therefore worth fighting for. But you have to let go and accept divorce first and then be a kickazz STBXH, not just to suck up to her in some shytty covert contract, but because you have the ability. I don't believe OM is some sort of Marvin Gaye.

When you feel angry or depressed go down to the basement and play your drums. Teach your daughter to play.

Chuck will buy your baseball cards.

p.s. Generally it is dumb to confront affair partners but I think he a wuss. If you catch him by his house and stare him down and tell him to quit the Spofiy BS with your best Clint Eastwood/Charles Bronson slow talk, he'll lose his mojo.


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## GusPolinski

Wow. So much to say, but for now I'd like to address Mrs. Grid directly...

Well played. That's one obstinate chump you've got there. Based on what I've read, you should have no problem keeping him snowed w/ marriage counseling (careful, though... you're going to have to pretend to participate!) and talks of reconciliation _just_ long enough to push the divorce through. A word of warning, though... he may be reaching his breaking point.

Your children, though? That's another matter entirely. I get the feeling that your daughter will hold on for as long as she can, only to be utterly devastated when everything comes crashing down around her. I do hope that you'll be able to find a way to forgive yourself for the Hell that you're currently visiting upon her. In the end, though, she probably won't be as forgiving.

And what about OM? Is he ready to be a stepfather?


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## LongWalk

Ah, Gus, I have addressed the issue of OM. I think Gridcom can get rid him.

Gridcom should embrace the divorce as a necessary step in whatever the future brings.


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## Evinrude58

My thoughts: 
She files for divorce and is now more committed to reconciliation?
She is checking her phone to look for music posts from the OM?
She has you 70k in debt and you don't know if she's done a good or bad job with the finances?

You have got to start looking at this logically. Don't listen to one dang thing this woman has to say. It's all lies.
I personally don't think she plans on a long term future with this loser she is "in love" with because he doesn't have the money to support her, and probably not the desire. But she has made it clear by filing that her future plans are not with you. Don't let this deceitful person steal your dignity.
Get free from her and carry on with your life. This is the only chance you have at happiness again. If you stay with her you will be looking over your shoulder the rest of your life, wondering if she really loves you and if she is secretly cheating, or about to leave you with no warning. You only have two choices: hurt now for a year or two, or hurt for much, much longer. She will screw with your head so hard you'll likely lose your sanity, and I mean that literally. It would be great if things worked out and she gave you your life back. Don't put your life in the hands of an obvious Judas. TAKE your life back. See your lawyer and let him help you figure this out. Your lawyer has likely seen this kind of thing play out many times. He can help you prepare for what is ahead. If she had the money, she'd be gone. She's using you until she can find a way out. JMO.
I wish you the best.


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## cbnero

Hate to say it but she did you a favor by setting you free. Don't be mad at POSOM. He did you a favor too. You should thank them both.

Now she lost her family over some loser at her work that can't provide for her. Her new man is a guy who could care less about marriage, only his own selfish sick desires. What a great choice for a partner. No money and no class. No ethics, no morals.

The woman he "won" is a cheating lying manipulative skank who doesn't respect marriage or love, honor, or respect her daughter and husband. 

Talk about winning the $hit lottery... they already got theirs. Let karma finish them off and celebrate your victory!

Good riddance to this bad rubbish in your life. Sorry you and your daughter are hurting. Nothing good comes easy. It gets better and if you use your anger to motivate you there are so many wonderful opportunities ahead for you and your daughter in this life. You just need to stay positive, pray a lot, forgive her for being trapped in this psychosis, and keep moving forward! Step up for your daughter's sake and show her how to overcome adversity. You will be her role model for the rest of her life. Forget the STBX

God bless, Nero


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## Spotthedeaddog

gridcom said:


> I told her to quit her job and recommit to the marriage in full or move out. If she decides to end the marriage, not only is she the biggest idiot walking the planet, but she will destroy my kids. Unfortunately, I think this is her preference. That said, I am ready for it.


Dont waste your life in waiting. Don't let her wriggle out either.

You don't want to be 5 - 10 years down the track for the "yes but I don't really love you after the affair."


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## LongWalk

What does your daughter think about her mom's smoking habit?

Does she ask her to quit?

Her smoking will always be a trigger for you. Every cigarette is a mini-betrayal of your daughter because mommy chooses a little rush that will age her quicker, take her another step closer to death, away from her own daughter. Kids hate the idea of losing their parents.

Every cigarette with OM is/was a continuation of her addiction to OM. Seeing OM. Taking that first drag, feeling her heart beat faster from the nicotine and love drugs.

Do you believe your wife has only shared one post coital cigarette with OM?

Does your wife belief that having filed for divorce she is now single? This is always the subject of debate. Some say once a spouse has filed extra marital sex is not a moral issue. Some say it is. You should ask your wife what her principles are.


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## Chaparral

It goes without saying they have had tons of chances to be together. All she has to do is leave her phone at work and either go with him or meet up at or close to work.

She doesn't love you, she thinks she's just temporarily stuck with you.

She has no problem betraying you, rubbing your face in it and continue ng the affair.

Find out what you can do to push the divorce along and let her play cougar all she wants. She's picked a loser, let her have him. Your kids will be OK as long as at least you can be a grown up.

Take over the finances and quit being lazy about it.

Her future looks pathetic at her age, you on the other hand will find a horde of available women. Look how low she's already scraped to find a boyfriend.


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## jld

Hey there, grid. I would accept any and all help you can get. Your daughter's friends have some nice parents. 

Keep working on getting your emotions under control. 

I know it's hard right now, but I think you are going to get through this.

If you can, consider reframing your demand for her to quit to an explanation of why it would help her get over him. Emphasize what is in it for her.

And I know it may be next to impossible, but try to have patience and keep your faith in yourself and your marriage. It's not over yet.


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## LongWalk

Hi Grid,

Chaparral and jld have seemingly opposed points of view. And yet I clicked "like" on both. How can they both be right? Chaparral seems to be saying dump the wh^re and move on while jld says take another bite of the sh^t sandwich because it may not be the only course in the feast of life.

It takes time for anyone to fall out of love. Your WW is deeply into OM because the affair has more history than she is letting on. She did, however, come to you and confess. That may have been a cry for help. That somewhere inside of her a voice was telling her to press the ejector button and return her to safety. Rubbing the affair in your face is a way of provoking you to do something. In the hunter gathering state, you would get your brothers and ambush OM with some rocks. But those days are over. Civilization changed the rules. Marriage, with its now flimsy promise of monogamy, and divorce, with its jagged offer of separation, are the fork in the road.

Your wife is romantic, sentimental and weak. Does she have it in her to become a stronger person and fight for her marriage? She pushed the ejection button twice. Once by starting the affair and now again by filing for divorce. It would be stupid and illogical to try and catch her as she catapults out with full force. As she floats down, choices will be apparent to her. There is a boring island with Gridcom, the kids and coconut tree. Nearby there is OM with his sun glasses and sailor's cap. His boat is leaky but he says it will take the two of them to paradise on love juice.

There is a third alternative. That is that she should be single and learn not to tolerate a bad marriage or low moral character (her own and OM's).

All you can do at this point is fix up post D coconut island. Don't stand and look at her floating down. Get busy. Sooner rather than later you'll hear a splash. She will either swim to shore or get in OM's crappy boat. You cannot decide for her. What's more by divorcing she is chucking her passport. You don't have to share the island with her even if she tries to return.

Also, humans are strange. Your wife has been thinking about how great OM is. His body, the way he moves, everything down to cute little toes and his bad breath. Everybody has bad breath. But yours is better than OM's and if your wife ever kisses you again, that may trigger her memory that OM doesn't really have anything special. But you have this.

Marriage is hard work. Does she want to do it?


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## happy as a clam

> Sooner rather than later you'll hear a splash. She will either swim to shore or get in OM's crappy boat. You cannot decide for her.


Excellent post, LW.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

Thank you, Clam. Hope your training is going well.


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## Evinrude58

No choice does he have in keeping her. She's divorcing him. He can accept it, move on, and learn to be happy again by himself or with a different woman, or just be miserable. I think grid has enough character to choose the former. I hope so; his current wife is serving the s**t sandwiches and that's all she's ever going to cook him. It just keeps getting worse and worse, and it will until he stands up and says he had had enough. There's different meals and different tables.... He should go find a better meal. I just had steaks, shrimp, good wine, and a nice time with my new lady. Life is not over just because a disloyal, cheating wife moves on to different pastures and treats the man she swore to love, like an old pair of jeans she no longer cares to wear. You can make it and be happy without her grid. You just have to make up your mind to do so. I'm pulling for you. 
She told you about the affair after she had made up her mind that she was done with you. Be done with her.


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## cbnero

My only comment for now is that MC is a compete waste of your time if OM is still in the pciture. Which he is. 

Grid, would you say you are leading and taking control of your life and how this all plays out? Or are you acting only to react to what she does? Letting go is a tough step. It does get better.


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## Keepin-my-head-up

cbnero said:


> My only comment for now is that MC is a compete waste of your time if OM is still in the pciture. Which he is.
> 
> Grid, would you say you are leading and taking control of your life and how this all plays out? Or are you acting only to react to what she does? Letting go is a tough step. It does get better.



Totally agree,

You told us that the wife filed.
You better believe she is getting her ducks lined up my friend.

She almost assuredly has a plan on how she will get the better end of the divorce.

Or you can keep the faith and hope the next course isn't a sh!t sandwich.

It is real now.
You are looking at time with kids, marital assets, debts, alimony, child support, etc...

Do not spend another minute trying to win this woman back!
You can do that later in the game.
Right now you are 2 steps behind and truly need to spend this time getting prepared!

Anytime someone files, the best advice is to assume they will follow thru.

Do not take any advice that isn't telling you to contact a lawyer and get ready for what is about to happen.
Never go in to court unprepared!
And don't take anything she says for a fact right now.
Whatever her lawyer tells your lawyer you can take as fact after you discuss it with your lawyer.


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## Evinrude58

I totally agree with the last poster. I know you don't want to believe that this woman that swore she would love and cherish you her whole life, would ever knowingly hurt you. You want to believe that I am just a jaded, divorced person whose wife cheated on him and thinks all wives are like mine, and that YOUR situation is different. Let me just say when people told me what I'm telling you, that I thought those same things. They were just looking at the facts I told them that I was unwilling to face. 

Your wife cheated and is still cheating, your wife made you feel like it was all your fault, and now your wife has filed for divorce. If you fail to protect yourself, you will add "I can't believe she wanted and got this, this, and this in the divorce, and she is the one that cheated!" To the list. We have been through it. The stuff they say and do is always so eerily similar. Listen. Protect yourself. She is no longer the woman you married. You have no choice but to close your heart and let logic dictate your actions. Your emotions are your weakness in this fight. They will bring you to destruction if you let them.


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## LongWalk

Since Grid told his wife about TAM, he decided not to check in all the time. Sometimes when posters disappear it's a sign that everything is going wrong.

But Grid have things under control, as much as they could be. He does not need daily handholding and affirmation. That's positive.



> I think she is trying to disconnect from the AP, but struggling. *She's admitted it*, which I think is important that she be that frank with me. She doesnt like answering my questions when the true answer makes her look bad. But, I'd rather deal with the honestly of someone who is emotionally wacked out than someone who tries to tell me I am wrong and infuriates me and disrespects me by trying to tell me the sky is pink (it's not).


He still trying to give her a chance to come clean and she's weighing it over, but it's hard for her to tell the truth about the true extent of the affair. Understandably humiliating. Facts ruin the affair. Perhaps Mrs Grid is has seen the mask slip from OM's face. Her affair was with the person who mirrored her emotions. Hence all the music.

TAMers on CWI are fond of saying only three percent of affair relationships survive. I never saw a footnote, so I am skeptical that is really that low. Still, the odds are against this relationship becoming anything.



> Because of some weird scheduling at her job, she's avoided working with him until a week from tomorrow, which will be a three week visual seperation. And for those of you who still want to insist they are sneaking when they can, I have a GPS on her phone, I work from home, and I have her whereabouts very much under check. if she is seeing him, she's going above and beyond the effort I could expect from her. In other words, MY reality is she is not seeing him, she's trying to disconnect not because she wants to but because she knows it's the right thing.


Well, if she really wanted to disconnect, she'd simply call in sick or quit.

Is it a good idea to tell a spouse about TAM? There isn't a single correct answer. But if Mrs Grid is coming here to read, she might consider PM'g lifeistooshort and jld for some support.


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## Keepin-my-head-up

LongWalk said:


> Since Grid told his wife about TAM, he decided not to check in all the time. Sometimes when posters disappear it's a sign that everything is going wrong.
> 
> But Grid have things under control, as much as they could be. He does not need daily handholding and affirmation. That's positive.
> 
> 
> 
> He still trying to give her a chance to come clean and she's weighing it over, but it's hard for her to tell the truth about the true extent of the affair. Understandably humiliating. Facts ruin the affair. Perhaps Mrs Grid is has seen the mask slip from OM's face. Her affair was with the person who mirrored her emotions. Hence all the music.
> 
> TAMers on CWI are fond of saying only three percent of affair relationships survive. I never saw a footnote, so I am skeptical that is really that low. Still, the odds are against this relationship becoming anything.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, if she really wanted to disconnect, she'd simply call in sick or quit.
> 
> Is it a good idea to tell a spouse about TAM? There isn't a single correct answer. But if Mrs Grid is coming here to read, she might consider PM'g lifeistooshort and jld for some support.


She can do what she wants and get in touch with whomever she pleases at this point.
It truly shouldn't be about that right now.
That is all fluff for him that he can figure out later.
When someone files for divorce, they are taking steps to legally end a marriage in court.
That is not 3% or what have you, that is 100% fact.
Filing for divorce is taking a legal step to end a marriage.

What comes with that is the financial and visitation stipulations that need to be focused on.

Grid, I'm not saying you cannot work on wooing this woman back.
What I am saying now is that you need to put that on the backburner and focus on what is in front of you.

Maybe you are not here because that is exactly what you are doing.
In the off chance you are not though-and if you somehow are still reading these posts, it is officially time to refocus the energy.

I don't know how else to express how serious things just got.


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## cbnero

Agreed. Almost every state has a mandatory "cooling off" period when there are kids involved before proceeding. Usually a few months. 

I hope he is not focusing on the fantasy of keeping his marriage intact and turning a blind eye to the reality that divorce paperwork has been filed by his cheating, lying spouse. 99% of what she has told him has been baloney meant to string him along. Buying time while she cements her plans without him. Just like almost every wayward does to the BS. 

This cycle needs to be broken by him, and soon. Now in fact. He needs to disengage and get the divorce work ready. If she changes her mind he can deal with it later. And objectively.


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## gridcom

I'm still here. I saw a lawyer. I am responding to the divorce legally. We went to marriage counseling on Saturday. It was good but it may be a case of too little too late.

I think she legitimately wants to reconcile now, even if it's because of reasons other than love. She see's the MC as a vehicle to us finding each other's hearts.
The issue, however, is that my own mind has started humming a different tune. Two ships passing in the night. 

It happened last Friday when she basically implied that it's not inconceivable that she could do it again in the right circumstances. It dawned on me that I could never REALLY trust her again, that it'll always be hanging over me. The threat will always exist now. I don't want to live like that. Period. Deep down, she justifies what she did. She thinks her reasons were valid on some level, and that's really the bottom line.

The marriage counselor gave her one thing to do in the next week. Do not engage the OM. She will work with him again this coming Friday. When I asked her yesterday what she would do WHEN he approaches her and tries to put the fish hook in her mouth, she didn't say she'd shut him down (him being the aggressive homewrecker who see's hurting my children as collateral damage in getting what he wants.). No, she said she'd be cordial and polite but little more than that. And on one hand, that just doesn't satisfy me, but on the other hand I really don't care. 

The only thing giving me pause is that I fought so hard in putting my kids first and now I'm being hypocritical. However, it's just reality that my wife is a cheater who see's it as justifiable. So, I really don't have a choice.

So, I want to go to a mediator. I don't see why we'd have to go to litigation. We have so little. The profit we can make off the house is very close to the total debt, so it makes sense to sell it and both of us move on down the road, debt free. I'm hoping we can do this soon, before the holidays. 

She's still going to have to get a real job to support herself and do her part in supporting two kids. I'm pretty sure now that she's thought about it thoroughly she doesn't want any part of that reality. And that's why she's changed her tune.

I'm going to keep bettering myself. I don't want this to imply that I am letting myself off the hook. I did a ton of damage to the marriage and going forward, I need to button up my side of the road.

Don't think because I'm not writing as much that I've stopped checking in. I just don't feel as emotional as I did (clearly) and don't feel the need to let it out as much as I did even a few weeks ago.

Thanks to everybody for their input.


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## jld

I'm so sorry, grid. 

I hope she agrees to mediation. I think your plan to sell the house, allowing both of you to walk away debt-free, is very good.


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## farsidejunky

Grid, that is the healthiest thoughts I have seen from you yet.

You are seeing reality now. And it hurts, especially for your kids.

I think you are making the right move going to mediation. You nailed it that she is justifying her affair. That is a recipe for a rug sweep.


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## LongWalk

Very good, Grid.

The next time you go to MC you might consider telling her that although you never cheated on her, now that you know how it hurts, you are really certain that you could never do it to her or your future wife. Don't talk about her failure to meet your moral standard. She is not trying for a reason. She still doesn't want to tell the truth about the affair. Until she comes clean, her ethics are broken. So when she says under the "right" circumstances anyone can cheat, she is not just saying that she might do it again. She is accusing you of doing something you may do.

Would you like a revenge affair? Ask your WW if it would surprize her?

OM has been neutralized by economic reality. As you move towards divorce, she may reach out to him for comfort. She may also reject him.

Divorce is not a betrayal of your children. 

Have you played your drums?

Have you sat with your daughter and gone through your baseball cards. She may not care much about baseball but she would like to hear the stories of how you got them. 

Now that you are detaching, your wife may start chasing you again. Follow your gut. Do not let her confuse you with remorseless sex. Don't lightly jump in bed with a cheater. Certainly don't sleep with her as long as she works with OM.

Lastly, MC is a therapeutic tool. It does not cause people to fall in love.


----------



## Satya

Hi Grid. 

I hope you continue to plow forward with the divorce your wife started. 

Your plan about selling the house is sound. Nothing but business and kids moving forward. 

Don't let her back in. She made her decision. 

That's all I've got.


----------



## truster

It sounds like you're making positive progress here. You're showing yourself to be someone with heart _and_mind, which is good. It's good you have both -- the former is a liability right now, as a person skilled at justifying their selfish actions will use it as a weakness -- but it'll be a strength in the long run, as you find happiness with another good person later down the road.

I think you're getting things in hand now. The only advice I would offer is a practical tidbit -- talk to your lawyer specifically about how infidelity can affect the divorce proceedings. Some states will throw out alimony, but you will need proof and need to make sure that you don't hop back into bed with her at any point, which is considered 'forgiveness' in the eyes of the court.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Agreeing to MC is just a way for your cheater-wife to give herself a pass for her crappy behavior. It's the rationalization hamster at work. 

"Look everyone...I went to MC.* I tried*, but it just didn't work. Poor me! Now we are getting divorced."

She has no interest in saving the marriage. No remorse. And says she would cheat again. Heh.

Can't wait to hear from you a year from now, grid. I like that you've decided you've suffered enough.

You might like this:

http://www.arvindguptatoys.com/arvindgupta/tonyawareness.pdf


----------



## cbnero

No kidding! People not in an affair fog deal with things rationally and logically and then jld and others advice could be utilized.

This woman is mentally so far whacked any MC is a complete waste of grids time. I can't imagine any other prudent advice other than to lock down his own emotions, disengage from her, and choose to start living his life without her in it today. Imagine his impending relief when she isn't around to make him feel like crap on a daily basis. 

Time to take her off the pedestal immediately and permanently.


----------



## LongWalk

Grid,

One thing you can do here on TAM is place your thread in the Private Members section. Alll you have to do is PM a moderator. This is not super private, really. The Private Members' Section...


> ... provides an extra level of privacy for those who are concerned about their username or posts being recognized by a random visitor. It is only viewable by "Forum Supporters," Members with over 30 posts, and Moderators.


Your wife could easily make 30 posts to see your thread again. What would she write to do it?

The best place would be to go an start a thread under "Reconciliation", where she could tell her story and ask advice. She could also ask moderators to protect her from abuse. 

And actually you could simply write a post here to say that you know you WW is posting and request that those following your thread treat her respectfully.

Also, your decision to divorce is very sound. It does not absolutely close the door to reconciliation. At the risk of repeating myself, yours has certain positive characteristics:

– She confessed rather getting caught
– She has not gone awol at night to bang OM
– She has not taken refuge in drugs and alcohol
– She has not lied about loving you when she doesn't
– She admits that she is not strong or resolute
– She has not drained your bank accounts
– She has gone to church
– She has gone to MC
– She has not deserted her children (completely) even if she has been absent mentally


----------



## lifeistooshort

You're doing good grid. Her implying that this could happen again is a huge deal and suggests she's not taking responsibility for her failings. Now that the issues are out she would need to commit to coming to you whenever her need aren't being met, that is her failure. Until she owns that she won't be able to look you in the face and say it'll never happen again and I will come to you for my needs, and if I find you can't fill them we will split up.

Instead she's basically told you that you can stick around and pay bills but if you can't read her mind and anticipate all of her needs in the future she'll fvck someone else. She's also implying that her sticking around and letting you pay bills and letting you fvck her is in fact a huge favor for you. 

You don't want to live like that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

You are right, lifeistooshort. She has merely implied nookie down the rocky road of reconciliation. She has not promised to let Grid fvck her. Things have changed a lot in a few weeks. Grid was going to bed every night and lying there in sleepless pain, for lack of her touch. Now it is not certain that an invitation to move back into bed with her would move him. It's her turn to worry about her sex appeal.

If she tries to seduce him he should turn her down and tell her that he'll think about it if she quits her job.

She needs to be asking Grid to listen to music with her so that he can understand her needs.


----------



## Evinrude58

The worst part of the mind-**** my ex did to me was sleeping with me twice after we separated. Talk about screwing your head up and plunging myself into a pit of despair! Mine even told me it was only physical and she was taking advantage of me, but I hoped it might lead to reconciliation. Boy was I an idiot. I agree that you shouldn't consider that, as badly as you might want it, until she quits her job and is honest about no contact.
Then I would make it clear that you did want sex, but only with a remorseful wife. 
She still doesn't own her infidelity, and has no remorse based on what you've said.

I agree that getting a divorce doesn't mean you can't reconcile. But surely, you'd better plan on a divorce and get your stuff together before she shafts you.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

You didn't say one thing while really wanting or believing the exact opposite. This is hypocritical.




gridcom said:


> The only thing giving me pause is that *I fought so hard in putting my kids first* and now I'm being hypocritical.


 This is not hypocritical.


----------



## LongWalk

A blog titled Affair Advice postulates that there are 7 types of affairs. Here is one:



> 4. The Exit Strategy -I’m Deeply Unhappy with My Marriage – Affair
> 
> As indicated by the name, in this type of marital affair the partner who strays is unhappy in the marriage and may feel as if s/he is no longer in love with their spouse. Or, they may say that they love their spouse as a brother or sister but no longer are “in love” with their spouse. They may see their marriage as a dead end. The affair may be an “exit strategy” to get out of their marriage — unwilling to let go of one vine until firmly grasping the next vine (a typical thought-process of the female cheater). The Wayward Spouse has gone out and “tested the waters” to see if “something better” is out there for them to provide a “soft landing” after leaving their spouse.
> 
> These types of affairs typically have their roots in friendship which become romanticized over time. They may start with a mutual disclosure of unhappiness in their respective marriages.
> 
> While these relationships will usually be sexualized, their real power comes from the emotional needs that are being met that are lacking in the marriage. They are usually long-term romances in which the affair partners feel that they are in love with one another and may be talking about a new life together. Happiness can only be found when they are together.
> 
> Although they are oftentimes not aware of it, the feelings generated by this type of marital affair are often intensified by the illicit nature of the affair. Although people in this type of affair don’t like hearing this, the odds of them having a successful long term relationship are very low.
> 
> The marital problems combined with the seeming fulfillment of the affair oftentimes make these people very reluctant to work on marital recovery. However, all is not lost. In virtually every relationship no matter how bad, there remains some good. Helping the straying partner focus on the remaining good, the tendency for humans to use a self confirmation bias to prove to themselves that all is bad when it really is not and helping them realize what they may actually lose oftentimes at least helps bring them to the point of being willing to give the marriage one last try.
> 
> These marriages have a surprisingly high survival rate if the partner is willing to commit him or herself to a period of time to restore the marriage. Sometimes asking for a initial commitment to try of say 15 weeks and they re-evaluate is more likely to work than asking for a complete commitment because it gives them some sense of freedom.


 Source


----------



## Chuck71

I heard my name and baseball cards mentioned in the same sentence a few times. Those of you that know me, I HAD to check it out. First off..... Gridcom, can you change your handle to Job? You should. I'm finishing off a fifth of JD, I recommend you join me. Dust yourself off, you have made a long journey.

If I understand correctly, your BSC spouse put a punk before.... her husband and.... children. Yes I say children, when a family is going through the D, the kids are inflicted. She would rather play "twinkletoes" with a "kid" and risk losing her entire family. Oh.... the sex.... it was more than once, bet the farm. My 2nd love (college sweetheart, 1991-96, off and on, she was in HS when we met) would "really get into it" if we were having to sneak. I thought it was childish but it wasn't to her. It gave the "goody two shoes girl" a feeling of a "bad girl." Guess what.... after she was 18... it wasn't as fun to her anymore. Wonder why?

Personally... I do hope you D her. If she wants to R, down the road, after growth and self reflection, whose to say no? My parents were retreads.... M in 1966, D 30 days later (no lie), M again in '68. Damn I wish I could have been a fly on the wall for their R conversations! 

You have been given sage advice from a multitude of people, not all people, just most. But evaluate ALL. Three years ago, minus one month, I joined TAM, I had my DDay two days earlier. I never once begged, pleaded, I simply stated this could be worked out and gave her, the space she desired. She wanted us to stay M but do our own thing. I said no, we need MC. She refused, I dropped the D on her immediately. 

For three weeks, she would come home on weekends but stay gone during the week. I began to relish when she was not here. I fell down the rabbit hole.... I had my "bottom day" 12/10/12. She came home EVERY night starting 12/11/12., straight from work. She wanted to rug sweep, I refused. If she did not want to talk about our M, I didn't want to hear it. I went to be with my mom for Christmas Eve, XW, then still W, expected me to stay. I left..... I came back a couple days later and felt different. I had only been away for a couple days but I knew there was a change. I left again a few days after Christmas and did not return until the D was final and she was gone (minus spot checks).

Gridcom..... the time we were apart is what I needed to realize, I did not care to fix anything. It was better for me to walk away. I did and have NEVER regretted it. I "stepped into the light." You will too, no matter how things go. You will make it, your kids will too. Your STBXW.... WGAF?

We're somewhat close in age, I'm 43. I promise you..... this POSOM loves leading her by the hope of "happily ever after." This guy WILL NOT take on.... an older woman with children. Not a snowball's chance in he!!. If you could talk her into moving in with him right now, she would be back by Halloween. Bet..... the ...... farm. But then what do you have................ a now repentant W, homeless, low income job, trying to raise children. Yeah.... remorseful, in what way? For what reason?

70k in debt? Care if I ask what this amount came from?
Bet the farm.... your W/STBXW is NOT the only philly in his stable.
I'm part Italian too..... we do tend to be vocal. Key is what happens when cooler heads prevail.
I was with my XW for over 15 years. In the sixth year, I was ready for D. I brought it to her attention.... we talked it out. Things were quite good.... for awhile but I saw effort from her.... that is what I sought.
Since she is a smoker (I am too but am about to lay them down), next time she runs off with rug sweep, blame shift, re-writing of history, gas lighting, or manipulation.... "I do not think it is healthy for you to try and blow smoke up my ass." Smile.... leave the room.

Grid... feel that tingling, itchy feeling between your legs? It's your balls coming back. Embrace them!


----------



## tom67

Chuck71 said:


> I heard my name and baseball cards mentioned in the same sentence a few times. Those of you that know me, I HAD to check it out. First off..... Gridcom, can you change your handle to Job? You should. I'm finishing off a fifth of JD, I recommend you join me. Dust yourself off, you have made a long journey.
> 
> If I understand correctly, your BSC spouse put a punk before.... her husband and.... children. Yes I say children, when a family is going through the D, the kids are inflicted. She would rather play "twinkletoes" with a "kid" and risk losing her entire family. Oh.... the sex.... it was more than once, bet the farm. My 2nd love (college sweetheart, 1991-96, off and on, she was in HS when we met) would "really get into it" if we were having to sneak. I thought it was childish but it wasn't to her. It gave the "goody two shoes girl" a feeling of a "bad girl." Guess what.... after she was 18... it wasn't as fun to her anymore. Wonder why?
> 
> Personally... I do hope you D her. If she wants to R, down the road, after growth and self reflection, whose to say no? My parents were retreads.... M in 1966, D 30 days later (no lie), M again in '68. Damn I wish I could have been a fly on the wall for their R conversations!
> 
> You have been given sage advice from a multitude of people, not all people, just most. But evaluate ALL. Three years ago, minus one month, I joined TAM, I had my DDay two days earlier. I never once begged, pleaded, I simply stated this could be worked out and gave her, the space she desired. She wanted us to stay M but do our own thing. I said no, we need MC. She refused, I dropped the D on her immediately.
> 
> For three weeks, she would come home on weekends but stay gone during the week. I began to relish when she was not here. I fell down the rabbit hole.... I had my "bottom day" 12/10/12. She came home EVERY night starting 12/11/12., straight from work. She wanted to rug sweep, I refused. If she did not want to talk about our M, I didn't want to hear it. I went to be with my mom for Christmas Eve, XW, then still W, expected me to stay. I left..... I came back a couple days later and felt different. I had only been away for a couple days but I knew there was a change. I left again a few days after Christmas and did not return until the D was final and she was gone (minus spot checks).
> 
> Gridcom..... the time we were apart is what I needed to realize, I did not care to fix anything. It was better for me to walk away. I did and have NEVER regretted it. I "stepped into the light." You will too, no matter how things go. You will make it, your kids will too. Your STBXW.... WGAF?
> 
> We're somewhat close in age, I'm 43. I promise you..... this POSOM loves leading her by the hope of "happily ever after." This guy WILL NOT take on.... an older woman with children. Not a snowball's chance in he!!. If you could talk her into moving in with him right now, she would be back by Halloween. Bet..... the ...... farm. But then what do you have................ a now repentant W, homeless, low income job, trying to raise children. Yeah.... remorseful, in what way? For what reason?
> 
> 70k in debt? Care if I ask what this amount came from?
> Bet the farm.... your W/STBXW is NOT the only philly in his stable.
> I'm part Italian too..... we do tend to be vocal. Key is what happens when cooler heads prevail.
> I was with my XW for over 15 years. In the sixth year, I was ready for D. I brought it to her attention.... we talked it out. Things were quite good.... for awhile but I saw effort from her.... that is what I sought.
> Since she is a smoker (I am too but am about to lay them down), next time she runs off with rug sweep, blame shift, re-writing of history, gas lighting, or manipulation.... "I do not think it is healthy for you to try and blow smoke up my ass." Smile.... leave the room.
> 
> Grid... feel that tingling, itchy feeling between your legs? It's your balls coming back. Embrace them!


Okay Conrad 2.0
I am going to put you in the Deejo dept as far as prose.


----------



## LongWalk

Good one, Chuck. I think the majority of Grid's thread followers agree with you on this point:



> Oh.... the sex.... it was more than once, bet the farm. My 2nd love (college sweetheart, 1991-96, off and on, she was in HS when we met) would "really get into it" if we were having to sneak. I thought it was childish but it wasn't to her. It gave the "goody two shoes girl" a feeling of a "bad girl." Guess what.... after she was 18... it wasn't as fun to her anymore. Wonder why?


The question is why did she confess when she did? If she had the strength of mind to break off the affair after having intercourse one time, why would quitting smoking be any sort of challenge to her? Her will power would be the stuff of legend.

The debt of seventy grand is not the sign of a person of strong resolve. She is self indulgent.

It is a well know phenomenon that cheaters rewrite marital history to justify fornication. If Gridcom's wife did not cut him off sexually during the year she admitted she was in love with OM, then how did she feel when Gridcom was having sex with her? Disconnected? Revulsion? When she informed him of the affair, she immediately cut him off sexually. She was at last able to stay true to OM.

That rejection hurt. But now that there has been no sex for months now, what is the point of the their marriage? A sexless marriage to a remorseless cheater who has filed for divorce. It's a no brainer.


----------



## Chaparral

Cutting off sex by a wayward has ALWAYS meant that the affair is still going on hot and heavy in very thread I have read here. Its the sure sign a reconciliation is a failure or a wife is being faithful to another man.


----------



## jld

LongWalk said:


> The question is why did she confess when she did?


You feel that she was announcing her decision to cut off from grid? It was her Declaration of Independence from the marriage?

I think most posters attribute great power to grid's wife. That is not necessarily how I see it.

Was she leaning towards total cutoff from grid? Could be. I think it was also a critical moment in the marriage, a moment that grid did not handle as well as might have been hoped. And there were many more missed opportunities.

Grid, I don't say that to hurt you. This is more an after action review, okay?

Grid did expose her to family and friends. But without her heart being moved, without hope that staying with grid offered something better than it had in the last, just as lifeistooshort's article said, grid's wife was not convinced. And every time grid stumbled in controlling his emotions, it increased her doubts about him and the marriage and lessened her love and trust.

Grid's wife is not choosing wisely. I believe she will regret her actions.

But in the moment, most of us do what feels good. It is why we drink liquor or eat chocolate. 

Grid and his wife share blame for the debt. It was not any more responsible of him to not keep track of their financial situation than it was for her to overspend. Both will pay the price for that.

I hope grid's wife can stop smoking. Like this affair, that is an addiction that will also offer her regrets.

Going forward, grid needs to learn to control his emotions and make wise, informed decisions. He needs to be the rock for his children.


----------



## LongWalk

I don't attribute great powers to her. Much of what she has done cries out that she is weak. She liked her job very much. Employment built her self esteem. That was a positive step from the depression she suffered. Grid probably encouraged her to find meaningful work. He was happy that she came home happier than before. He did not realize that OM and the EA were partially behind the change of mood.

When she entered the PA phase of the affair, she lowered her status at work. All of the subordinates could smell the hormones and see how she and OM interacted like lovesick teens. They probably found it a mixture of cute and pathetic. For Mrs Grid this must have been unnerving. What married woman with kids wants to be seen as the woman in an affair that is probably going to blow up? That may be the reason she spilled the beans. She felt the affair needed dignity in the light of day.

If she were strong, she would produce a timeline so that they could begin to address the damage. If Grid can only pry it out, then the damage will just be worse. Her desire for MC while divorce in in the works is a power play.


----------



## Chuck71

LongWalk said:


> Good one, Chuck. I think the majority of Grid's thread followers agree with you on this point:
> 
> 
> 
> The question is why did she confess when she did? If she had the strength of mind to break off the affair after having intercourse one time, why would quitting smoking be any sort of challenge to her? Her will power would be the stuff of legend.
> 
> The debt of seventy grand is not the sign of a person of strong resolve. She is self indulgent.
> 
> It is a well know phenomenon that cheaters rewrite marital history to justify fornication. If Gridcom's wife did not cut him off sexually during the year she admitted she was in love with OM, then how did she feel when Gridcom was having sex with her? Disconnected? Revulsion? When she informed him of the affair, she immediately cut him off sexually. She was at last able to stay true to OM.
> 
> That rejection hurt. But now that there has been no sex for months now, what is the point of the their marriage? A sexless marriage to a remorseless cheater who has filed for divorce. It's a no brainer.


LW..... to compare keeping marital vows to lighting up a smoke, no comparison what so ever. The moment she allowed him inside her panties, she emotionally divorced him. The rest is paperwork and billable hours for lawyers. 

I did fail to mention, Grid..... once I left the house, guess what happened. Emails daily, more reaches than a Roman bath house after a night of heavy drinking. I say this often in my first thread, on blogs I am very late to (which is now often), humans will return to familiarity, even if it is almost guaranteed to be as bad, or worse. At least you know what you are in for. Grid, EVERY single time I have taken the darker, less lit path.... over the horizon, a new world awaited. "Stepping into the light".... You have shouldered enough to re-build the pyramids in Egypt. I think you need a rest, I'm not alone in saying that.

NO destruction of a M is exactly 50 / 50 nor is it 100 / 0. Own your part, improve yourself. Her owning her cheating, that is on HER and ONLY her. Food for thought.... Grid, she had trouble communicating effectively with you, think she did with POSOM? No excuse for it whatsoever.... there were a multitude of more effective ways to handle this. But we are here.....

You can listen to my advice (and dozens of others) or simply remove my comments from your blog. It's quite easy to do. But deep down.... you know the truth. You have for a long time. Me leaving the house, I did, you shouldn't. I knew I was getting the house after the D, no arguments. I gave her an opening, much farther than most would.... but she ignored them and when I "turned" it was with precision. She fell into a trap, moved away from it, another trap. 

I will lift a quote from Conrad, after you have tried the Nice Guy approach, the Mr. Fixer approach, and the I'll do anything to make it work approach........ "How's that working for you?"


----------



## Chuck71

jld said:


> You feel that she was announcing her decision to cut off from grid? It was her Declaration of Independence from the marriage?
> 
> 
> Going forward, grid needs to learn to control his emotions and make wise, informed decisions.


Hand her a Virginia Slim.

Grid's not the only one who has issues in controlling their emotions


----------



## jld

LongWalk said:


> I don't attribute great powers to her. Much of what she has done cries out that she is weak. She liked her job very much. Employment built her self esteem. That was a positive step from the depression she suffered. Grid probably encouraged her to find meaningful work. He was happy that she came home happier than before. He did not realize that OM and the EA were partially behind the change of mood.
> 
> When she entered the PA phase of the affair, she lowered her status at work. All of the subordinates could smell the hormones and see how she and OM interacted like lovesick teens. They probably found it a mixture of cute and pathetic. For Mrs Grid this must have been unnerving. What married woman with kids wants to be seen as the woman in an affair that is probably going to blow up? That may be the reason she spilled the beans. She felt the affair needed dignity in the light of day.
> 
> If she were strong, she would produce a timeline so that they could begin to address the damage. If Grid can only pry it out, then the damage will just be worse. Her desire for MC while divorce in in the works is a power play.


Every time I hear someone say something aggressive about her, I think they are giving her power she does not necessarily have. I am not saying you in particular are doing that, LW. It is just how aggressive statements strike me.

If I were grid, I would focus on what I did wrong. That is what is under my control. That is where I can make the most positive impact, learning from my mistakes in the past to make the future better.

It sounds like he abdicated most household responsibility to her. He reacted to her desire for emotional intimacy with immature behavior--yelling at her, leaving the room, swear words, etc.

And then, when her vulnerability to someone who I believe falsely seemed to be able to offer some emotional intimacy became a full out PA, grid once again reacted at least partly out of emotion. He knew the right things to do, but could not fully overcome his emotions and exercise complete leadership.

There were opportunities, LW. But when we sit on the victim chair, however justified we feel, we miss out on those opportunities.

We all do it. We all have our own very comfortable victim chair.

But it prevents our taking constructive action.

And you know what else does not help?

_Hanging around in the *Victim Chair Lounge*! _


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> Every time I hear someone say something aggressive about her, I think they are giving her power she does not necessarily have. I am not saying you in particular are doing that, LW. It is just how aggressive statements strike me.
> 
> If I were grid, I would focus on what I did wrong. That is what is under my control. That is where I can make the most positive impact, learning from my mistakes in the past to make the future better.
> 
> It sounds like he abdicated most household responsibility to her. He reacted to her desire for emotional intimacy with immature behavior--yelling at her, leaving the room, swear words, etc.
> 
> And then, when her vulnerability to someone who I believe falsely seemed to be able to offer some emotional intimacy became a full out PA, grid once again reacted at least partly out of emotion. He knew the right things to do, but could not fully overcome his emotions and exercise complete leadership.
> 
> There were opportunities, LW. But when we sit on the victim chair, however justified we feel, we miss out on those opportunities.
> 
> We all do it. We all have our own very comfortable victim chair.
> 
> But it prevents our taking constructive action.
> 
> And you know what else does not help?
> 
> _Hanging around in the *Victim Chair Lounge*! _


This!

But the exact opposite!

You have every right to be angry Grid. Your wife is a cheat and has destroyed your kids "family unit". You mess with my kids you get the wrath. 

I call BS on this notion that strong men do not express anger. They do when it is called for. 

Protect yourself Grid she is trying to distract you all while scheming to get the best divorce settlement. 

Watch her actions and disregard what she says. She filed for divorce. That is a definitive action you must deal with. All the garbage coming out her mouth is meaningless.


----------



## jld

And we see an example of what I was talking about . . .giving other people your power . . . also known as sitting in the victim chair . . .

MEM says anger is a cover for fear or pain, grid. Express that instead. It will be more effective.


----------



## Chuck71

ButtPunch said:


> This!
> 
> But the exact opposite!
> 
> You have every right to be angry Grid. Your wife is a cheat and has destroyed your kids "family unit". You mess with my kids you get the wrath.
> 
> I call BS on this notion that strong men do not express anger. They do when it is called for.
> 
> Protect yourself Grid she is trying to distract you all while scheming to get the best divorce settlement.
> 
> Watch her actions and disregard what she says. She filed for divorce. That is a definitive action you must deal with. All the garbage coming out her mouth is meaningless.


Most agree!

Too many people dig themselves into a tortured hole when they allow emotion to overcome their reasoning.

There is a huge difference in controlled rage and uncontrolled rage. Controlled can help define who you are. Uncontrolled.... will burn you up inside. I almost burned up inside with this... in my defense, I was a teen at the time.

Anytime I see someone trying to strip someone of their basic instincts (emotions) I gladly refer them to CS Lewis "Abolition of Man" Short read, three chapters, 60 pages.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> And we see an example of what I was talking about . . .giving other people your power . . . also known as sitting in the victim chair . . .
> 
> MEM says *anger is a cover for fear or pain*, grid. Express that instead. It will be more effective.


Conventional scientific wisdom recognizes six "classic" emotions: happy, surprised, afraid, disgusted, angry[/COLOR], and sad

Why are you discounting a basic human emotion?


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> Conventional scientific wisdom recognizes six "classic" emotions: happy, surprised, afraid, disgusted, angry[/COLOR], and sad
> 
> Why are you discounting a basic human emotion?


Google "anger as a cover for fear or pain." Or just ask @MEM11363.


----------



## ButtPunch

Grid 

Anger is one the seven stages of grief. Once we get past that you are one step closer to acceptance and 
not giving a sh*t what your ww says or does. That is our goal here. Emotionally detach. 

It's easy for your WW cause she detached already.


----------



## Chuck71

ButtPunch said:


> Grid
> 
> Anger is one the seven stages of grief. Once we get past that you are one step closer to acceptance and
> not giving a sh*t what your ww says or does. That is our goal here. Emotionally detach.
> 
> It's easy for your WW cause she detached already.


only emotionally

NOT financially.....

She wants him to pay her to leave


----------



## LongWalk

jld,

How do you explain her filing for divorce while saying that they may rediscover love through marital counselling?

My explanation – and this is admittedly speculation – is that when Mrs Grid started getting feelings for OM at work, she came how glowing and happy. Gridcom wrongly attributed this to her success. He was clueless. When she and OM began to have sex he also did not catch on. Gridcom has only written about being cut off since she revealed the affair, but he has probably gone back over and over in his mind trying to interpret her behavior over the past 12 months.

Many betrayed spouses start reviewing dates and events and matching them against the affair. This creates the trickle truth phenomenon. Mrs Gridcom does not want to mess around explaining what really happened. It is easier to divorce. The maybe we can work things out is a smoke screen.


----------



## jld

She is probably still torn. But grid's reactions to her, which were the thing that made her vulnerable in the first place, have reliably turned negative under stress. It confirms all her fears about not having the future she would have liked with him, just like life's article said.

That is why I keep telling him to get his emotions under control.

I am not against divorce, if that is where they end up. But I think when people really want that, it is done pretty quickly. She sleeps with the other man, files, and does not look back. Not the case here.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> She sleeps with the other man, files, and does not look back.


I wish Grid was this healthy. 

You do realize this is the most healthy and appropriate response to an adulterous spouse.


----------



## MEM2020

It's a basic 'secondary' emotion. 

Run through memories of when you have felt anger. Try and find one where the stimulus didn't cause you fear or pain. 

Fear and pain don't ALWAYS produce anger. 

But anger doesn't exist without fear or pain. 




ButtPunch said:


> Conventional scientific wisdom recognizes six "classic" emotions: happy, surprised, afraid, disgusted, angry[/COLOR], and sad
> 
> Why are you discounting a basic human emotion?


----------



## MEM2020

No - I don't realize that. 

Plenty of marriages - had an affair - end up better off than before the affair. Takes two committed partners. 

Plenty of marriages - already dead before the affair started - affair just shined a light on the marital corpse. Didn't actually do the killing. 





ButtPunch said:


> I wish Grid was this healthy.
> 
> You do realize this is the most healthy and appropriate response to an adulterous spouse.


----------



## ButtPunch

MEM11363 said:


> No - I don't realize that.
> 
> Plenty of marriages - had an affair - end up better off than before the affair. Takes two committed partners.
> 
> Plenty of marriages - already dead before the affair started - affair just shined a light on the marital corpse. Didn't actually do the killing.


I didn't say that either of these are not true. People do reconcile and have better marriages. Some people reconcile and continue to have miserable marriages. Some people divorce and regret it. Some people divorce and love it. Everybody and every situation is different. 

The point I am making is when someone stabs you in the back the healthy immediate reaction is not to turn around and give them the knife back so they can do it again.


----------



## Chuck71

He ain't happy, she ain't happy. Time for D.

She wants the fantasy, the emotion.... help her pack.

She then realizes she can't make it on her own.... but isn't she supposed to live happily ever after with POSOM?

Sounds a lot like buyer's remorse. Now she wants him to pay her to leave.

He is becoming aware of this now. He is not doing as she wants. She is angry.

Why am I nor many others, not shocked? Did I miss anything?


----------



## LongWalk

The perfect response to an affair doesn't happen most of the time. 

The reason that strong reaction, such as filing for divorce, is usually good is because the consequences of cheating are real at once.

If a cheating husband or wife comes home from work and after the kids are in bed the betrayed spouse hands them the divorce papers and says, "I know what you've been up to; you need to go sleep somewhere else," the cheater will feel strong emotions all at once. The prospect of having to leave one's own home is fearful. That sudden shift is better for dispelling the "in love" feeling. If Gridcom had presented his WW with drastic consequences, she might have been working harder on their marriage. The same goes for him too.

Here's an example



> *Doogle*
> ♀ New Member
> Member # 49838
> Stop Posted: 8:04 AM, October 6th (Tuesday), 2015	View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage
> Dday august 12,2015
> Divorce pending
> I told my spouse about my affair and he filed for divorce the next day, called my boss and got me fired, mass text all my friends and family about what a s*#! I was. I have cut everything off with the other, and did so almost instantly. I go to counseling, I've prayed, I've begged, and nothing seems to change his mind on this divorce. It's been almost 2 months since he found out and filed for divorce and he's never looked back. He's divorcing me Bc "it's the right thing to do and he feels pathetic even thinking about any other option."
> I am completely devastated, very depressed, I've lost everything. Everyone is so quick to judge the wayward spouse, about how horrible I am and it's my fault and yes those things are true. But this is killing me to lose my husband.(yes I should have thought of that before I did it.)But hearing my soon to be ex say once a cheater always a cheater seems unfair. Yes I did something horrible but I cannot undo it. I cannot show enough remorse and I can't make my husband stop leaving. And I think what bothers me the most is he won't even try to make it work. He can sit next to me fine and talk to me fine and say he still loves me but divorce is "the right thing to do." I feel defeated and worthless everyday.
> Any advice on how to move forward? Get out of bed in the morning?


----------



## jld

LongWalk said:


> The perfect response to an affair doesn't happen most of the time.
> 
> The reason that strong reaction, such as filing for divorce, is usually good is because the consequences of cheating are real at once.
> 
> If a cheating husband or wife comes home from work and after the kids are in bed the betrayed spouse hands them the divorce papers and says, "I know what you've been up to; you need to go sleep somewhere else," the cheater will feel strong emotions all at once. The prospect of having to leave one's own home is fearful. That sudden shift is better for dispelling the "in love" feeling. If Gridcom had presented his WW with drastic consequences, she might have been working harder on their marriage. The same goes for him too.


I think it is possible to go too fast, too. And I am not saying grid is.

I don't know how much understanding we will achieve in this conversation when for many folks the focus is on the affair as the _cause_ of trouble, instead of as, in this case, at least imo, the _result_ of trouble.


----------



## gridcom

jld said:


> I don't know how much understanding we will achieve in this conversation when for many folks the focus is on the affair as the _cause_ of trouble, instead of as, in this case, at least imo, the _result_ of trouble.


this


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> I think it is possible to go too fast, too. And I am not saying grid is.
> 
> I don't know how much understanding we will achieve in this conversation when for many folks the focus is on the affair as the _cause_ of trouble, instead of as, in this case, at least imo, the _result_ of trouble.


The focus is on the affair because the affair has to be dealt with. There can be no reconciliation until then. I think it's a great idea that Grid go get some IC and work on whatever he needs to work on. Codependency for starters. I'm a big fan of self-improvement. 

PS Don't waste your money on Marriage Counseling if your WW and OM still work together.


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> this


Grid

I see your still blaming yourself. 

We see it often here.


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> The focus is on the affair because the affair has to be dealt with. There can be no reconciliation until then. I think it's a great idea that Grid go get some IC and work on whatever he needs to work on. Codependency for starters. I'm a big fan of self-improvement.
> 
> PS Don't waste your money on Marriage Counseling if your WW and OM still work together.


I can totally see how it is much easier if the affair partner is out of the picture.

But I read a testimony one time about a man whose wife left him for another man, taking their baby daughter with her. Tbh, they may have even been missionaries. I think I read it on a missionary site.

Within six months, she was back. And it was a true reconciliation. 

The man looked at his heart, and changed. He _did _win her back. He was patient, but focused.

I am not saying those stories are common. But true heartfelt change is powerful. We can be won over. We can give second chances. We can be persuaded to trust again.

Grid, I am not saying any of this applies to you. You know your situation better than I ever will. But the TAM way is not the only way.


----------



## LongWalk

On Facebook you can different relationship statuses, including the "It's complicated"

The reasons that any marriage is trouble could include many different factors. Neglect, abuse, ED, in-laws, finances, etc. All of those can be considered when trying to fix a marriage. However, one spouse is in and affair and in love with someone else, how can you fix anything? The affair has to end first. If your house is on fire, you put out the fire discussing what caused the fire comes afterwards.

re: Anger
Gridcom's wife would be very confused if he weren't angry. That would mean he didn't care if she screwed around. Uncontrolled rage is another story. But the guy is Italian.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> I can totally see how it is much easier if the affair partner is out of the picture.
> 
> But I read a testimony one time about a man whose wife left him for another man, taking their baby daughter with her. Tbh, they may have even been missionaries. I think I read it on a missionary site.
> 
> Within six months, she was back. And it was a true reconciliation.
> 
> The man looked at his heart, and changed. He _did _win her back. He was patient, but focused.
> 
> I am not saying those stories are common. But true heartfelt change is powerful. We can be won over. We can give second chances. We can be persuaded to trust again.
> 
> Grid, I am not saying any of this applies to you. You know your situation better than I ever will. But the TAM way is not the only way.


JLD

You misinterpret my intentions. Your story is wonderful. I myself have experienced infidelity and reconciled. My wife is now a better spouse and mother because of all the help and counseling she got.

However, as of right now, Grid doesn't have that luxury. Grid's wife has filed for divorce. She refuses any accountability. Told Grid the only reason she hasn't left is cause of the money. Grid has nothing to work with to save his marriage. 

Tomorrow may be a different story but as of right now his wife is gone and Grid needs to live his life by accepting that fact. Tomorrow who knows?


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> i can totally see how it is much easier if the affair partner is out of the picture.
> 
> But i read a testimony one time about a man whose wife left him for another man, taking their baby daughter with her. Tbh, they may have even been missionaries. I think i read it on a missionary site.
> 
> Within six months, she was back. And it was a true reconciliation.
> 
> The man looked at his heart, and changed. He _did _win her back. He was patient, but focused.
> 
> I am not saying those stories are common. But true heartfelt change is powerful. We can be won over. We can give second chances. We can be persuaded to trust again.
> 
> Grid, i am not saying any of this applies to you. You know your situation better than i ever will. But the tam way is not the only way.




or her new boyfriend dumped her

just kidding


----------



## gridcom

I am doing what I have to do re: The divorce
I am replying to it legally. Please don't think my head is in the sand. 

Deep down, I would like to reconcile with my wife but I am not going to do it under any circumstances that include rug sweeping or her keeping her job or her not owning up to her side of the street. FOR RIGHT NOW, however, I really just want to stay focused on my side of the street and lets see what happens over here.

Again, I am not letting her off the hook. But, at the same time, I dont feel the need to push, pressure, or make everything happen lightning fast to "shock" her. I am OK with it playing out.

I have my lawyer. He's being paid to do the professional work.


----------



## gridcom

I have turned a corner emotionally, and that's huge. I feel just better overall. I'm not panicked. I am focused. Keep in mind that I spent weeks trying to convince my wife that she owed it to her kids and to herself to hit the pause button and give the marriage a chance. And then she did JUST what I asked her to do, no more no less. And suddenly, simultaneously I am starting to have second thoughts.

The whole thing is bizzare. The best course of action when failing at playing a game is to slow the game down so you have some more time to think. 

She's not rushing to get a divorce. She filed because I was threatening her financially by saying I wasnt going to pay the mortgage or bills if she carried on the affair while living at home. Her friend works for the lawyer, so she's been getting the legal advice. And she was advised to "File for the D" much in the way I was advised here. 

Again, whatever happens is going to be fine. That's really all that matters


----------



## GusPolinski

gridcom said:


> I have turned a corner emotionally, and that's huge. I feel just better overall. I'm not panicked. I am focused. Keep in mind that I spent weeks trying to convince my wife that she owed it to her kids and to herself to hit the pause button and give the marriage a chance. And then she did JUST what I asked her to do, no more no less. *And suddenly, simultaneously I am starting to have second thoughts.*
> 
> The whole thing is bizzare. The best course of action when failing at playing a game is to slow the game down so you have some more time to think.
> 
> She's not rushing to get a divorce. She filed because I was threatening her financially by saying I wasnt going to pay the mortgage or bills if she carried on the affair while living at home. Her friend works for the lawyer, so she's been getting the legal advice. And she was advised to "File for the D" much in the way I was advised here.
> 
> Again, whatever happens is going to be fine. That's really all that matters


Want to know why?

It's because she filed for divorce, thereby taking a measure of control out of your hands.


----------



## gridcom

GusPolinski said:


> Want to know why?
> 
> It's because she filed for divorce, thereby taking a measure of control out of your hands.


Actually, no. It's because I'm left with the impression based on a few recent conversations that she still see's justification in what she did and didn't flat out deny that it could ever happen again. 

Because of my behavior in the marriage prior to the affair, she see's herself as THE victim still. Which is an ongoing issue. 

She's more focused on my side of the street than her own.


----------



## MEM2020

Gridcom,

I like your honesty and your faith that everything will be ok. 

How hard is it/will it be going forward for you to meet your wife's needs? The ones you referenced - not meeting - in your first post?

Do you believe she would have had the affair - had you been meeting her needs? 

Disclaimer: I am NOT blaming you for the affair. Just asking a question about causality. 

And for clarity sake, one night I worked really late and almost got robbed and beaten at a deserted bus stop - by two young thugs.

If that had happened it sure wouldn't have been my fault. That said, fault or no, after that event I avoided that bus stop after a certain hour of the day. 




gridcom said:


> I have turned a corner emotionally, and that's huge. I feel just better overall. I'm not panicked. I am focused. Keep in mind that I spent weeks trying to convince my wife that she owed it to her kids and to herself to hit the pause button and give the marriage a chance. And then she did JUST what I asked her to do, no more no less. And suddenly, simultaneously I am starting to have second thoughts.
> 
> The whole thing is bizzare. The best course of action when failing at playing a game is to slow the game down so you have some more time to think.
> 
> She's not rushing to get a divorce. She filed because I was threatening her financially by saying I wasnt going to pay the mortgage or bills if she carried on the affair while living at home. Her friend works for the lawyer, so she's been getting the legal advice. And she was advised to "File for the D" much in the way I was advised here.
> 
> Again, whatever happens is going to be fine. That's really all that matters


----------



## Chuck71

I filed for D, made WC pay for it...... aren't I a bastard LOL 

she got, what she wanted. She then realized she did not want what she got.

Emotion over reality. Bitter pill. She swallowed, I didn't.

I have no regrets. She on the other hand............


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> Again, whatever happens is going to be fine. That's really all that matters


This is great progress.

It took counseling and a lot of tough love from the TAM crew before
I realized that everything will be fine either way.


----------



## gridcom

MEM11363 said:


> Do you believe she would have had the affair - had you been meeting her needs?


I honestly am not sure. I would hope not, but to be honest I am not sure


----------



## jld

gridcom said:


> Actually, no. It's because I'm left with the impression based on a few recent conversations that she still see's justification in what she did and didn't flat out deny that it could ever happen again.
> 
> *Because of my behavior in the marriage prior to the affair, she see's herself as THE victim still. * Which is an ongoing issue.
> 
> She's more focused on my side of the street than her own.


It is pretty common for women to seek safety in their husbands, grid. If she is not sure she is safe with you, for example, because of the way you were threatening her last week, it is normal she is going to look to protect herself.

It is imperative you earn her trust. No threats, no manipulation, no coercion of any kind. I know it is hard, but you must resist. You must not give into your anger.

And MEM, so glad to see you have joined the thread.


----------



## gridcom

My sister said it best yesterday. She is forever in the "capable" category. meaning, no matter what, she is and will always be capable of some really horrible behavior. And when I see other couples coming out the other side "stronger", I wonder how that is dealt with. 

I mean, if she was truly sorry and truly remorseful and just on her knees begging the Lord above for forgiveness, would that make her any less capable of doing it again if the circumstances were right for it?

It's like .... You can NEVER go out with your friends after work for a drink. I will always have that woman on lockdown now. Kind of sucks.


----------



## gridcom

jld said:


> It is imperative you earn her trust. No threats, no manipulation, no coercion of any kind. I know it is hard, but you must resist. You must not give into your anger.


I understand this, but trust needs to be earned on both sides. I mean, they arent the biggest lies, but she's still lying and getting caught here and there. Which makes it hard not to believe there isn't something else not yet known. And maybe I'll never know


----------



## gridcom

Case in point regarding trust. I am going to my office tomorrow for the first time since late June. Amazing I've worked from home the entire summer. And I have yet to tell her what time I am leaving etc because I still have this nagging feeling that her alone in the house while the kids are at school could be bad news for me. That's not healthy

If she is actually being honest and not having any contact with OM, then I can imagine that my walking paranoia is frustrating to her. But, what does she expect? That my paranoia is frustrating to her shows that she just doesnt get how deep the wound goes.


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> My sister said it best yesterday. She is forever in the "capable" category. meaning, no matter what, she is and will always be capable of some really horrible behavior. And when I see other couples coming out the other side "stronger", I wonder how that is dealt with.
> 
> I mean, if she was truly sorry and truly remorseful and just on her knees begging the Lord above for forgiveness, would that make her any less capable of doing it again if the circumstances were right for it?
> 
> It's like .... You can NEVER go out with your friends after work for a drink. I will always have that woman on lockdown now. Kind of sucks.


Grid

Am I glad I reconciled? YES

DO I still have these problems you speak of three years later? YES

Not a day goes by where the infidelity doesn't cross my mind and this is three years ago.

Do I regret reconciling. NO, my wife has changed for the better. She is no longer the victim. She has dealt with her severe FOO issues. I can now count on her to be wife and I don't have to be the codependent husband carrying his wife and two small kids around on his back.


----------



## jld

gridcom said:


> Case in point regarding trust. I am going to my office tomorrow for the first time since late June. Amazing I've worked from home the entire summer. And I have yet to tell her what time I am leaving etc because I still have this nagging feeling that her alone in the house while the kids are at school could be bad news for me. That's not healthy
> 
> If she is actually being honest and not having any contact with OM, then I can imagine that my walking paranoia is frustrating to her. But, what does she expect? That my paranoia is frustrating to her shows that she just doesnt get how deep the wound goes.


The thing is, grid, _her _wounds were created and deepened over _years._

I am not saying her affair was right. It was not. But when you want her to see your side, try to first see things through _her_ eyes.

I know, it is so hard to hear what I am saying. Your pain is very real. Your world has been shattered. Your daughters' world has been shattered. And it just feels so unfair that the key to straightening things out, if indeed they can be straightened, may lie first with helping your _wife_ heal.

As far as the lies, I think it is fine to point them out, calmly. I don't think you should rugsweep anything. The more transparency, the better. As long as that transparency includes keeping your anger in check.

Grid, did you reflect on what MEM said about anger being a cover for fear or pain? Could you show her your fear or pain, instead?

Vulnerability moves women, grid. It strikes our conscience.

And remember, just as your wife is indeed capable of stumbling again, you are, too. And she is weighing that, too.


----------



## Evinrude58

jld said:


> You feel that she was announcing her decision to cut off from grid? It was her Declaration of Independence from the marriage?
> 
> I think most posters attribute great power to grid's wife. That is not necessarily how I see it.
> 
> Was she leaning towards total cutoff from grid? Could be. I think it was also a critical moment in the marriage, a moment that grid did not handle as well as might have been hoped. And there were many more missed opportunities.
> 
> Grid, I don't say that to hurt you. This is more an after action review, okay?
> 
> Grid did expose her to family and friends. But without her heart being moved, without hope that staying with grid offered something better than it had in the last, just as lifeistooshort's article said, grid's wife was not convinced. *And every time grid stumbled in controlling his emotions, it increased her doubts about him and the marriage and lessened her love and trust.*
> 
> Grid's wife is not choosing wisely. I believe she will regret her actions.
> 
> But in the moment, most of us do what feels good. It is why we drink liquor or eat chocolate.
> 
> Grid and his wife share blame for the debt. It was not any more responsible of him to not keep track of their financial situation than it was for her to overspend. Both will pay the price for that.
> 
> I hope grid's wife can stop smoking. Like this affair, that is an addiction that will also offer her regrets.
> 
> Going forward, grid needs to learn to control his emotions and make wise, informed decisions. He needs to be the rock for his children.


I'm wondering how you can lessen a zero... ??
Not being a smart-arse, but she had already made her mind up about him. He couldn't have done squat to change her mind. JMO


----------



## jld

Evinrude58 said:


> I'm wondering how you can lessen a zero... ??
> Not being a smart-arse, but she had already made her mind up about him. He couldn't have done squat to change her mind. JMO


I think she was torn. I think she still is. 

I think she needs emotional oxygen, and right now she is getting it from a polluted supply (the other man, however limited the contact). I want her to be lured back to a healthier supply: grid. 

But he is responsible for improving the quality of the emotional oxygen he can provide. And I am hoping we can show him how.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

You need to read up and learn about manipulation or you'll fail and fall harder grid. Mediate and Divorce, pre-nup and then restart the marriage if the Counseling works.

She FILED. 
She FILED.
She FILED.


You shouldn't have to lure her to do anything, it is a blatantly ridiculous suggestion. If there is trouble in a marriage you either want to work it out or you do not. She broke trust. It is not your job to do everything in your power to make her feel safe, which you've already done. She has shown you and told you the truth, why don't you believe her? As a person who respects them self, I'd NEVER want a woman who I had to lure back into a marriage. You want out, goodbye.


----------



## turnera

jld said:


> Every time I hear someone say something aggressive about her, I think they are giving her power she does not necessarily have.


Nah, just us judging her and finding her lacking.


----------



## turnera

jld said:


> I don't know how much understanding we will achieve in this conversation when for many folks the focus is on the affair as the _cause_ of trouble, instead of as, in this case, at least imo, the _result_ of trouble.


IT DOESN'T MATTER what the other issues in the marriage are, if there is STILL a third person in it.

Once the cheater has kicked out the AP for good, by all means BOTH of you lower yourself to ground level and start hashing out where the marriage went wrong (that's IF the BS can stomach staying with the 'former' WS, and that is NOT a given).

But until the WS is 95% on board with seeing WHY the AP has to go and is willing to move mountains to no longer contact him, the BS lowering himself to the ground to show all his warts does nothing but remind the WS why she went looking.


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> IT DOESN'T MATTER what the other issues in the marriage are, if there is STILL a third person in it.
> 
> Once the cheater has kicked out the AP for good, by all means BOTH of you lower yourself to ground level and start hashing out where the marriage went wrong (that's IF the BS can stomach staying with the 'former' WS, and that is NOT a given).
> 
> But until the WS is 95% on board with seeing WHY the AP has to go and is willing to move mountains to no longer contact him, the BS lowering himself to the ground to show all his warts does nothing but remind the WS why she went looking.


I disagree. She is going to see soon enough the flaws of the young man at her work. We want grid to look much better in comparison.

He can focus on cleaning up his side of the street. That will make an impression on her.


----------



## farsidejunky

He definitely needs to do that, JLD. But not to be more appealing to his partner, but rather to be a better man. 

Part of showing her that he is a better man is starting by showing her that he will not tolerate continuing of the third person in the marriage. 

What am I saying? You and Turnera are BOTH right.


----------



## ButtPunch

phillybeffandswiss said:


> You need to read up and learn about manipulation or you'll fail and fall harder grid. Mediate and Divorce, pre-nup and then restart the marriage if the Counseling works.
> 
> She FILED.
> She FILED.
> She FILED.
> 
> 
> You shouldn't have to lure her to do anything, it is a blatantly ridiculous suggestion. If there is trouble in a marriage you either want to work it out or you do not. She broke trust. It is not your job to do everything in your power to make her feel safe, which you've already done. She has shown you and told you the truth, why don't you believe her? As a person who respects them self, I'd NEVER want a woman who I had to lure back into a marriage. You want out, goodbye.


I agree with this but Grid I can tell isn't emotionally here yet. Let him grieve his marriage and he will think more rationally in the future.


----------



## LongWalk

Grid,

Does your wife doubt that you love her?

Does she come out and say this?

You weren't the best husband. Does think you are becoming better?

Does OM have a big enough place for kids?

VAR your home. Do you need to stay overnight for work?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> He definitely needs to do that, JLD. But not to be more appealing to his partner, but rather to be a better man.
> 
> Part of showing her that he is a better man is starting by showing her that he will not tolerate continuing of the third person in the marriage.
> 
> What am I saying? You and Turnera are BOTH right.


By becoming a better man, he will be more appealing. That is how he lures her back. And I realize that my using that word is risky. 

I think it is fine if he pursues mediation, but I think it would also be fine to just work on cleaning up his side of the street. I think that could bring her back. And her filing was clearly a defensive response to his escalation.

You do realize his side of the street may be less littered than before, but is still not clean, right?


----------



## jld

Also, far, I am hesitant to put too much emphasis on "getting the other man out of her life." I don't know that grid has much control over that. 

But he has total control over how he treats her. And that is already quite powerful.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

gridcom said:


> Case in point regarding trust. I am going to my office tomorrow for the first time since late June. Amazing I've worked from home the entire summer. And I have yet to tell her what time I am leaving etc because I still have this nagging feeling that her alone in the house while the kids are at school could be bad news for me. That's not healthy
> 
> If she is actually being honest and not having any contact with OM, then I can imagine that* my walking paranoia* is frustrating to her. But, what does she expect? That my paranoia is frustrating to her shows that she just doesnt get how deep the wound goes.


You have to do what you feel is right, but I will counter some of your self deprecation and insults when possible.

No offense, but you have to stop misusing these negative words that are detrimental to your emotional health.

Paranoia is a delusion caused by fear and anxiety normally unfounded and irrational. 

She was having an affair, still might be, agreed to no contact, lied to continue contact, blindsided you with the divorce filing, told you she could cheat again, will be cordial to the OM the next time they meet and then wants to attempt a reconciliation while the divorce proceeds.

All the above happened, it is not delusional, it is your current life.
Now, please explain, how the heck you have "walking paranoia?"
You don't.

Oh and stop worrying about your wife "getting it." She's divorcing you.


----------



## jld

LW, I want to ask you straight out: Do you _want_ grid to get divorced?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

ButtPunch said:


> I agree with this but Grid I can tell isn't emotionally here yet. Let him grieve his marriage and he will think more rationally in the future.


When he begins to grieve then I'll agree.


----------



## LongWalk

jld said:


> LW, I want to ask you straight out: Do you _want_ grid to get divorced?


I am a sucker for happy endings. If early on in this thread, Grid's wife had asked him to roll to her side of the bed and they had gone through hysterical bonding, complete with pizza at 3:30 am and more bonding, each apologizing for their shortcomings and vowing to never take each other for granted again, I would have said hurray.

Gridcom is a romantic guy. He wanted Kolors and his wife to reconcile. He saw himself and his wife in that tale. And I think it was perceptive of him to pick that one out of all that he could have stumbled upon in the TAM archives.

There are different kinds of divorces. As ButtPunch pointed out some divorce and are happy, some divorce and are sad. I don't know how things will play out. It is entirely possible that some part of Gridcom's still loves him, but that part of her is not in the drivers seat. Can Gridcom boost his sex ranking by being her rock?

Sure.

What does that mean?

One thing to remember from Kolors' thread: Their marriage became sexless. Mrs Kolors was not interested. Kolors set up another household and started working super hard to fix their family's shaky economy. He tried to become a better man for himself but also he hope his wife would relent. Once they separated for a period of time she wanted an agreement in writing that they could date without accusations of adultery. That hurt but what choice did Kolors have but to assent.

After Mrs Kolors tried out the man/men with whom she had had EAs, she concluded that Kolors was number one. She wanted him back but Kolors had moved on. He found a new parter.

That looks more and more likely for Gridcom. This call from her for divorce may mean she has a green light to boogey with OM now. She has even said that under certain circumstances people will cheat. For her the circumstances may be perfect.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> By becoming a better man, he will be more appealing. That is how he lures her back. And I realize that my using that word is risky.
> 
> I think it is fine if he pursues mediation, but I think it would also be fine to just work on cleaning up his side of the street. I think that could bring her back. And her filing was clearly a defensive response to his escalation.
> 
> You do realize his side of the street may be less littered than before, but is still not clean, right?


Let that be the unintended consequence. I know his side is not clean. I am not suggesting otherwise.

But I think simultaneously showing her he doesn't need her while suddenly becoming the new Grid is the winning combination, whether she goes or stays.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Let that be the unintended consequence. I know his side is not clean. I am not suggesting otherwise.
> 
> But I think simultaneously showing her he doesn't need her while suddenly becoming the new Grid is the winning combination, whether she goes or stays.


Idk, far. I think some vulnerability might be good. I don't get the feeling grid was a NG in the past. Quite the opposite.

And I do think some atonement is in order.


----------



## turnera

He seems pretty damn vulnerable to me.


----------



## jld

LongWalk said:


> That looks more and more likely for Gridcom. This call from her for divorce may mean she has a green light to boogey with OM now. She has even said that under certain circumstances people will cheat. For her the circumstances may be perfect.


I think that is true, that under certain unforeseen circumstances people might find themselves doing things they never thought they were capable of. As a matter of fact, I bet beforehand they would swear that they themselves would never do such a thing.

I think she may also be speaking out of her distrust of him, LW. Are we ignoring her decade-long pain, to focus only on his 3 month one? Is that not shortsighted?

I don't think she is sure she wants a divorce. Her move was a protective one. His attempt at coercion provoked it.

Again, I think many folks simply cannot see past the PA. It is the only thing that seems to matter to them.


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> He seems pretty damn vulnerable to me.


How so?


----------



## cbnero

Wait, is jld really Mrs. Gridcom?


----------



## turnera

jld said:


> How so?


IDK, just stuff like this:


> Yes I have spared her the coming out of this because I think it can be fixed without shaming.
> Morituri, from the moment I heard about this, there has been not one bit of anger or bitterness in me. Honest truth. I keep thinking about that and I think it speaks volumes for how much I've come to understand how much of a demolition man I've been to my own marriage. Yes, it took this act to make that realization happen. Yes, the realization is real. I cant imagine that I will eventually feel bitterness or anger from this current event. Future actions may be a different story altogether.
> I didnt go hard at her today because quite honestly I still dont want to be that aggressive assh*le that she complained about in the first place.
> I am doing everything in my power to be as nice as can be,
> For me, I do need to do work on being a better me for me. And I am doing it. The thing about me that was so blind to her frustration with me, that thing that made me a d*ck sometimes, this is what I am trying to get at. I don't know how to "remove it" but I am trying. IC helps. I wish it was daily, honestly.
> 
> Basically, you are who you are but you can always redefine parts of you that make you and others unhappy.
> 
> My energy is on being a better me. I need to stay consistent in that. That is truly the path to my own happiness.
> Towards the end of the conversation, she started getting a bit hostile, mocking my efforts and asking me how many more articles I was going to read, how many more books, etc.... God, that's frustrating. I just ended it there before any drama ensued. She's dealing with a ton of bitterness towards me (and I towards her) and its going to take time on both sides for that to get to a level where we dont feel like being a$$holes towards each other sometimes. This was why I didnt want to talk about things anymore, because
> less talk
> + more acts of service
> + more displays of gentleness
> + a clever and/or slightly offensive joke
> = going in the right direction.
> And that's not just an equation for right now, thats an equation for life.
> 
> Going to IC? Absolutely was always needed and so glad that I finally am doing it. Holding myself accountable for poor behavior like I hold others accountable for their behavior? Yep, that too. Re-examining my relationship with my children? Not that it was ever bad, but this experience has had me looking at my role as a father. I'm complimenting them more, telling them I love them, making them feel loved. Not that I didnt before, but nearly as much as I am now. And you can see the love being returned. It's AWESOME!


----------



## ThreeStrikes

There's an awful lot of talk here about what Grid can do to win back the cheater.

Dance, Grid, dance. Maybe she'll pick you!

There's an awful lot of talk blaming Grid for problems in the marriage, which drove poor Mrs. Grid into her coworker's arms (and bed).

There's talk about fear, and anger, and power.

None of it matters. 

Because Mrs. Cheater Grid is a *cheater*, and admits she would be capable of it again. Along with the cheating, she is a sneak and liar.

This is a matter of character and integrity, and Mrs. Cheater Grid doesn't have any.

All sorts of people cheat: rich, poor, pretty, ugly, famous, no-names.

Who doesn't cheat? People with integrity don't cheat. Even though they *could* if they decided to. *They don't cheat.*

Mrs. Cheater Grid's lack of integrity is all on her. 

When a person of integrity experiences relationship problems, they approach their partner and attempt to work it out. They set boundaries. They demand change when change is needed. Maybe they go to counselling. They do so in a loving manner.

If boundaries continue to be crossed, or abuse and disrespect continue, a person of integrity ends the relationship. If it's a marriage, they file for divorce. They won't seek a new partner immediately because of the impact on the children. *Integrity.*

There's no need to try to untangle Mrs. Grid. Trust that cheaters suck. That's all that matters.


----------



## jld

What I mean by vulnerability, turnera, is his showing her his pain without blaming her for it.

He has shown his anger, he has threatened her, he has commanded her. I am not sure he has shown her the tears from his heart.

Maybe he has and I just don't remember those posts.


----------



## ConanHub

jld said:


> I think that is true, that under certain unforeseen circumstances people might find themselves doing things they never thought they were capable of. As a matter of fact, I bet beforehand they would swear that they themselves would never do such a thing.
> 
> I think she may also be speaking out of her distrust of him, LW. Are we ignoring her decade-long pain, to focus only on his 3 month one? Is that not shortsighted?
> 
> I don't think she is sure she wants a divorce. Her move was a protective one. His attempt at coercion provoked it.
> 
> Again, I think many folks simply cannot see past the PA. It is the only thing that seems to matter to them.


He did nothing even close to the abuse she is heaping on him in ten years. He didn't abuse his children like she is either.

Honestly jld. I am seeing why you need to be treated like a child.

I further don't get how you can't see the strangeness of trying to counsel anyone on infidelity when you yourself are the inferior, to the point of child to adult, to your husband.

Your posts are so tremendously out of touch with a subject you have never even dealt with and if you did cheat, would happily blame your husband for it.

How are we, especially men, supposed to take anything you say about infidelity seriously when you yourself claim men are superior in marriage and responsible for their wives infidelity?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

jld said:


> What I mean by vulnerability, turnera, is his showing her his pain without blaming her for it.
> 
> He has shown his anger, he has threatened her, he has commanded her. I am not sure he has shown her the tears from his heart.
> 
> Maybe he has and I just don't remember those posts.


She is certainly to blame for his pain and her daughter's pain as well.

You wouldn't be angry if Dug was harming your children? Don't be a hypocrite. I no you would be.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

ConanHub said:


> He did nothing even close to the abuse she is heaping on him in ten years. He didn't abuse his children like she is either.
> 
> Honestly jld. I am seeing why you need to be treated like a child.
> 
> I further don't get how you can't see the strangeness of trying to counsel anyone on infidelity when you yourself are the inferior, to the point of child to adult, to your husband.
> 
> Your posts are so tremendously out of touch with a subject you have never even dealt with and if you did cheat, would happily blame your husband for it.
> 
> How are we, especially men, supposed to take anything you say about infidelity seriously when you yourself claim men are superior in marriage and responsible for their wives infidelity?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't remember claiming men are superior in marriage. I do think they have great influence on their wives.

I also think a wise man takes responsibility for his marriage. He looks at his own hand in his marital troubles. He knows his own behavior is his greatest influence on his wife.

Conan, I get the impression you see men as weak. I see them as strong. I don't think they need protection from women. That is perhaps our fundamental difference.


----------



## jld

ConanHub said:


> She is certainly to blame for his pain and her daughter's pain as well.
> 
> You wouldn't be angry if Dug was harming your children? Don't be a hypocrite. I no you would be.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Anger is a secondary emotion, Conan. Did you read MEM's post?

She was wrong to cheat, and he was wrong to mistreat her.


----------



## cbnero

Honestly jld it's just the worst advice ever. I get respecting others opinions and all that. But this is point of view based on zero experience. None. 

And it's bullsh!t and its dangerous and here is why. BS get told by cheating spouse it's their fault via blameshifting. BS wants to fix himself, the marriage, whatever it takes. And is desperate to find any glimmer of hope. And here jld throws out a lifeline. Hey guess what it is your fault! In grids case no one had the candor to call out the horseshyt immediately and he right away bought it hook,line, and sinker. I would have done the same if someone fed me that. Why would grid listen to experience and reality when you are spoon feeding him fantasy soup but later he finds its self abusive poison. And honestly I felt bad for grid and didn't want to rain on his parade when he embraced it as his plan of action. Then realizing it's just another lost fantasy it hurts even worse. That's why it's dangerous to even say stuff like that to desperate people who are hurting.


----------



## turnera

jld said:


> What I mean by vulnerability, turnera, is his showing her his pain without blaming her for it.
> 
> He has shown his anger, he has threatened her, he has commanded her. I am not sure he has shown her the tears from his heart.
> 
> Maybe he has and I just don't remember those posts.


Yes he has. Multiple times. He started OUT begging and pleading and he has had, by my count, at least a dozen conversations with her about it.

But I'm not going to keep beating this dead horse with you, AGAIN, ad nauseum, on yet another thread. You keep going on and on about weak/strong, weak/strong, as if people just don't have a secondary brain cell in their heads other than 'you strong, me follow.' You think all women will swoon as soon as they see the Marlboro Man and instantly forget all feelings of wanting another man or wanting another man to pursue her or wanting to be independent, just because her man suddenly sweeps her off her feet. That happens in books. Not real live women. At least women who aren't you. 

You've been asked to stay off threads when you start beating this drum because it frankly does more damage than good. Maybe you should, instead of pushing this unrealistic version of life so hard, start asking yourself why this keeps happening to you.

T/J over.


----------



## jld

He is free to ignore anything I say, cbnero. 

I cannot think of a better way to become embittered than to feel I have no control over my life. And when he is encouraged to give his power to her, by blaming her and being angry with her, rather than looking at his own hand in his troubles, he is at great risk of becoming embittered.


----------



## jld

I asked grid if he wanted me to stop posting, Turnera. He said No.

I don't think begging and pleading is vulnerability, either. I think "I" statements without blame or coercion, but taking responsibility for his hand in this, sound more like vulnerability. 

And I understand we may see this differently.


----------



## cbnero

Yeah he's been following your advice and it's been working wonders. Next thing when she is moving in her new boy toy you can ask grid to write and mail her poetry and let him know that deep down you think she still loves him and wants to be married still and she is just confused and doesn't feel safe and that's why she is banging other dudes.


----------



## jld

Cbnero. 

I think we should take a break for tonight. See you tomorrow.


----------



## farsidejunky

ConanHub said:


> He did nothing even close to the abuse she is heaping on him in ten years. He didn't abuse his children like she is either.
> 
> Honestly jld. I am seeing why you need to be treated like a child.
> 
> I further don't get how you can't see the strangeness of trying to counsel anyone on infidelity when you yourself are the inferior, to the point of child to adult, to your husband.
> 
> Your posts are so tremendously out of touch with a subject you have never even dealt with and if you did cheat, would happily blame your husband for it.
> 
> How are we, especially men, supposed to take anything you say about infidelity seriously when you yourself claim men are superior in marriage and responsible for their wives infidelity?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Easy, tough guy.

Grid has admitted to being abusive to her. 

And while I rarely agree with JLD'S thoughts on infidelity, that is no reason to assume that her dynamic erases any credibility she may or may not have. 

That is out of line, and sounds like frustration speaking.

There is room for opinions we don't agree with on this forum, right?


----------



## gridcom

Yeah, I think honestly there is good advice coming from all sides. Whether you like it or not, there is some reality in what jld says. She truly does have my wife's state of mind, and echoes the same sentiments almost to an eerie degree. 

That said, it really does goes both ways and it'd be dangerous of me to ignore the lies and poor behavior and general attitude that I need to do all the fixin' in this here marriage that my wife continues to pile on me.


----------



## TheGoodGuy

ThreeStrikes said:


> There's an awful lot talk...
> 
> .........
> 
> None of it matters.
> 
> Because Mrs. Cheater Grid is a *cheater*, and admits she would be capable of it again. Along with the cheating, she is a sneak and liar.
> 
> This is a matter of character and integrity, and Mrs. Cheater Grid doesn't have any.
> 
> All sorts of people cheat: rich, poor, pretty, ugly, famous, no-names.
> 
> Who doesn't cheat? People with integrity don't cheat. Even though they *could* if they decided to. *They don't cheat.*
> 
> Mrs. Cheater Grid's lack of integrity is all on her.
> 
> When a person of integrity experiences relationship problems, they approach their partner and attempt to work it out. They set boundaries. They demand change when change is needed. Maybe they go to counselling. They do so in a loving manner.
> 
> If boundaries continue to be crossed, or abuse and disrespect continue, a person of integrity ends the relationship. If it's a marriage, they file for divorce. They won't seek a new partner immediately because of the impact on the children. *Integrity.*
> 
> There's no need to try to untangle Mrs. Grid. Trust that cheaters suck. That's all that matters.


My God I cannot like this post enough. Cheers 3strikes


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

jld said:


> I think it is risky for him to expect her to help him heal, at least initially. He is likely to be disappointed, which could further delay his healing.
> 
> It takes all a man's emotional energy, I am sure, but I think it is more empowering for him to be the first to take steps to repair the marriage after a wife's affair.


I agree that to expect her help to heal is a mistake.
She will she you as a wimp in the worst way, a doormat. So you would have to prove you can ride lions and rule the stage very quickly.
What you'll likely to find is that her affair person dumps her, which is best achieved by putting pressure on him directly (telling others, photos, comments to any conservative types he works with)


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

jld said:


> And I do think some atonement is in order.


Sure, as long as he atones for his sins not hers. He can atone for his sins whether it is with her or npt.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

gridcom said:


> Yeah, I think honestly there is good advice coming from all sides. Whether you like it or not, there is some reality in what jld says. She truly does have my wife's state of mind, and echoes the same sentiments almost to an eerie degree.
> 
> .


Yet, you continue to ignore how your wife continues to confound you.. So, jld echoes the wife you remember, not the one you currently do not know.


----------



## LongWalk

Here are two important quotes:



gridcom said:


> My wife had reason to cheat. I should change the name of this thread to "My wife cheated and I love her more for it"


This speaks of raw throbbing pain. Is it accurate to say that if this love is not reciprocated over time, you now see that your love for her will die. Saddening. But she doesn't care that much. She has gone to church and MC but the effort level is minimal. She is depressed about her her life, not just you, but everything. Hurting you may or may not give her some pleasure. If the later is true, she may just feel like her inner emotional life is charred, smoking ruin. OM may already look more and more like a nice guy. If he wasn't just into her for sex, then she may still be longing for him. Some of her non-toxic advisors must have told her that the OM is not really going to make a new family with her. Even though she is loath to believe this, she must have heard them. 

The idea that this big love doesn't lead anywhere great in real life is part of the charred ruins.

Here is another important quote: 



> Here is the other issue too. *My wife REALLY loves her job*. I'd go as far as to say it's the *most fulfilling job* she has ever had. I cannot see her leaving that job under any cirumstances, even to the point that we fell back in love and it made all the sense in the world. *I can see her being at her current job for 25 more years easy*. Another huge mess.


At first I thought this might be a call center. But now I wonder if this is caregiving. A retirement home? There must be some value in the work for you to say she could do it for 25 years. But it is not a job that can finance a mortgage in your area. More smouldering ruin for her to gaze at.

In the jld scheme of things you would allow her to go off and fail in a new life and then you would get back together because she would realize that you were always there for her. And since divorce would require you both to move, lowering your standard of living, why not suck it up and let her experiment without divorce, so the family home and finances remained intact. That would mean entering into an open marriage. Let her go and sleep over with OM a few nights a week and then after a few months or a year, the romantic ecstasy of that relationship would fade. At last your love would triumph.

That path might succeed. But most posters would warn you that such a path amounts to self destruction, at the very least even more pain. How could kids stand saying good night to her when she was driving to OM's for the night? What utter misery.

jld is right that you need to be rock to your wife. That means saying no to nonsense that demeans your worth. Your wife will not forgive you if you hand her a jumbo pack of condoms and tell her to go and get OM out of her system by practicing emotionally safe sex. The idea is crazy.

I asked you whether your wife acknowledges that you love her. I suspect you have said it more than once since Dday. That may be positive if she still loves you at some level and wants to reconcile but doesn't feel ready. But if she is completely done with you and is just thinking about how much cash she will get from the sale of the house, then your declarations of love are just an advantage to her as she tries to extract herself.

Have you asked her if filing for divorce has freed her from the marital vow to only cherish one man?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

farsidejunky said:


> Easy, tough guy.
> 
> Grid has admitted to being abusive to her.


No, he did much more than this in his various posts. He said *emotionally* abusive. Then he described something that is entirely subjective and most likely influenced by what he has read caused by self blame for his wife's affair. Heck, he even said the emotionally abusive scales were "mild to lower middle" from his various week of article reading. When infidelity hits, you tend to make mountains out of molehills. I've watched it happen too many times to count and experienced myself. Self diagnosis is ugly and can lead to more problems. 

Nope, not absolving him for his possible anger issues or definite poor communication, but not buying the abusive comments either. Yes, I am arguing semantics because when you drop abuse/abusive out of context, some people assume he beats his wife.


----------



## RandomDude

gridcom said:


> My wife had reason to cheat.


W... T... F... ?!?!?!

There is NO justification for cheating, ZILCH, NADA, NEVER! BAH!

Personally, I wouldn't just let her go, I would tell her to GET THE FK OUT!


----------



## MEM2020

Grid,
This is solely focused on helping you get where you want to be.

Life really is about 4 things. Love, power, money and time

For now, let's connect two of them. Love and money. 

You don't want G2 to stay with you because she must. Nor do you want the kids to be impacted by a bankruptcy. 

Step 1 has to be defining and maintaining a tight budget. This is an opportunity for you to lead - by creating the draft budget. And then collaborate in finalizing it. Let her keep paying the bills, but review actual to budget with her end of each month. 

Income is great. But a good provider - provides stability. And debt, especially high levels of debt, is unstable. 

So you've done the hard part - gotten a high paying job. Now do the relatively easier job of being disciplined. 

This is also a good mutual trust building exercise. 

There can be no anger or aggression in this process. If she refuses to cooperate - which is unlikely - you calmly explain that this impacts the KIDS and if needed you will cut up the credit cards, and limit each of you to debit cards linked to low balance checking accounts. 

Your lawyer can help if needed. But if you handle this properly none of that should happen. Make it feel like a team effort, not a power move. Unless that is, you are forced to do so. 

But - that's the thing about anger. If you remain aware that you really ARE in control, and if needed can severely limit both of your discretionary spend - you won't get angry. 

You lay out plan A, and only mention plan B if she's fighting you and even then more as a: I don't want to do this, if however I feel it's the only rational choice to provide stability for the KIDS, I will do B. 

And you don't mention having talked to your lawyer. Because you don't need the derived authority of a lawyer. You will have already spoken to yours and know what you can and can't do. 

This is the type thing that JLD is talking about. Leading, showing strength. Hell - if she seems depressed about the budget - show some compassion. As in:

I know this will be tough, let's make it a team effort and support each other. 

------
A key part of the budget will be agreeing to discuss ANY spend above X$, and any spend above Y$ that is not budgeted for. 
------

Walk softly here because you are by far the more financially powerful spouse. And don't expect to reach agreement in one sitting. Expect some challenges. Table the items you disagree on and revisit the next day with a suggested approach/compromise. 

Worst case - you use a vice - not a hammer - to get the necessary outcome. 





gridcom said:


> I'm still here. I saw a lawyer. I am responding to the divorce legally. We went to marriage counseling on Saturday. It was good but it may be a case of too little too late.
> 
> I think she legitimately wants to reconcile now, even if it's because of reasons other than love. She see's the MC as a vehicle to us finding each other's hearts.
> The issue, however, is that my own mind has started humming a different tune. Two ships passing in the night.
> 
> It happened last Friday when she basically implied that it's not inconceivable that she could do it again in the right circumstances. It dawned on me that I could never REALLY trust her again, that it'll always be hanging over me. The threat will always exist now. I don't want to live like that. Period. Deep down, she justifies what she did. She thinks her reasons were valid on some level, and that's really the bottom line.
> 
> The marriage counselor gave her one thing to do in the next week. Do not engage the OM. She will work with him again this coming Friday. When I asked her yesterday what she would do WHEN he approaches her and tries to put the fish hook in her mouth, she didn't say she'd shut him down (him being the aggressive homewrecker who see's hurting my children as collateral damage in getting what he wants.). No, she said she'd be cordial and polite but little more than that. And on one hand, that just doesn't satisfy me, but on the other hand I really don't care.
> 
> The only thing giving me pause is that I fought so hard in putting my kids first and now I'm being hypocritical. However, it's just reality that my wife is a cheater who see's it as justifiable. So, I really don't have a choice.
> 
> So, I want to go to a mediator. I don't see why we'd have to go to litigation. We have so little. The profit we can make off the house is very close to the total debt, so it makes sense to sell it and both of us move on down the road, debt free. I'm hoping we can do this soon, before the holidays.
> 
> She's still going to have to get a real job to support herself and do her part in supporting two kids. I'm pretty sure now that she's thought about it thoroughly she doesn't want any part of that reality. And that's why she's changed her tune.
> 
> I'm going to keep bettering myself. I don't want this to imply that I am letting myself off the hook. I did a ton of damage to the marriage and going forward, I need to button up my side of the road.
> 
> Don't think because I'm not writing as much that I've stopped checking in. I just don't feel as emotional as I did (clearly) and don't feel the need to let it out as much as I did even a few weeks ago.
> 
> Thanks to everybody for their input.


----------



## LongWalk

So, Mem, you don't think Gridcom needs clarity about the obligations while awaiting divorce. Should he ask her if she has can see other men now? What I mean is sure, getting the family finances in order is good for their relationship as married couple, but what if she doesn't consider herself married?


----------



## bfree

gridcom said:


> My sister said it best yesterday. She is forever in the "capable" category. meaning, no matter what, she is and will always be capable of some really horrible behavior. And when I see other couples coming out the other side "stronger", I wonder how that is dealt with.
> 
> I mean, if she was truly sorry and truly remorseful and just on her knees begging the Lord above for forgiveness, would that make her any less capable of doing it again if the circumstances were right for it?
> 
> It's like .... You can NEVER go out with your friends after work for a drink. I will always have that woman on lockdown now. Kind of sucks.


See that's just it grid. While all people are "capable" of cheating it is my belief that a truly remorseful wayward is less capable than someone that has never dealt with infidelity. They have taken all the pain, both theirs and their spouse's and internalized it to the point that nothing will ever get them to go to that ugly place again. The betrayed spouse, seeing that pain getting internalized and feeling the true anguish from their loved one cannot help but feel compassion toward the one that betrayed them. Those are the seeds of true reconciliation and as long as the two are focused on each other in healthy ways the relationship can indeed grow stronger.


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> I disagree. She is going to see soon enough the flaws of the young man at her work. We want grid to look much better in comparison.
> 
> He can focus on cleaning up his side of the street. That will make an impression on her.


So let's say that your advice works for this time around. What if one day in the future a better man doors come along. She should leave grid and go to him? Or should she just have another affair and wait until grid makes himself even better then go back to grid? Etc, etc, etc. That sounds an awful lot like hypergamy to me jld, something that the MRA types crow about. I don't mean to threadjack and maybe this needs a new thread to flesh out. You talk about how grid needs to make his wife feel safe. But in your scenario how can grid ever feel safe?


----------



## gridcom

bfree said:


> See that's just it grid. While all people are "capable" of cheating it is my belief that a truly remorseful wayward is less capable than someone that has never dealt with infidelity. They have taken all the pain, both theirs and their spouse's and internalized it to the point that nothing will ever get them to go to that ugly place again. The betrayed spouse, seeing that pain getting internalized and feeling the true anguish from their loved one cannot help but feel compassion toward the one that betrayed them. Those are the seeds of true reconciliation and as long as the two are focused on each other in healthy ways the relationship can indeed grow stronger.


good way of explaining that


----------



## gridcom

LongWalk said:


> But she doesn't care that much. She has gone to church and MC but the effort level is minimal. She is depressed about her her life, not just you, but everything. Hurting you may or may not give her some pleasure. If the later is true, she may just feel like her inner emotional life is charred, smoking ruin. OM may already look more and more like a nice guy. If he wasn't just into her for sex, then she may still be longing for him. Some of her non-toxic advisors must have told her that the OM is not really going to make a new family with her. Even though she is loath to believe this, she must have heard them.


The above quoted is very good and accurate

There is NO scenario where an "open" marriage exists. I would never allow that. Of course I've told her I lover, a gatrillion times. I have also been humble at times. And MEM said something about being a vice, not a hammer. I would say what I do is more a vice, not a hammer. I don't explode in anger, ever. I just apply pressure and dont let go until resolution


----------



## Chaparral

RandomDude said:


> W... T... F... ?!?!?!
> 
> There is NO justification for cheating, ZILCH, NADA, NEVER! BAH!
> 
> Personally, I wouldn't just let her go, I would tell her to GET THE FK OUT!


This is why JLD's advice is so destructive.

The hardest thing to do in this section is to get the BS to see reality. Healing and/or reconciliation doesn't start until the cheater takes credit for the affair. Had grid taken the advice of the veterans here the situation for him would have been much better. Instead of ripping off the band aid all that has been accomplished is letting his wife control her ongoing affair and grid.

Its excruciating to watch these threads when JLD starts serving up rainbows and unicorns. This doesn't mean JLD is anything other than a great person trying to help. The road to hell however, is paved with good intentions.

That grid thinks she somehow is in the mind of his wife is even harmful. What his wife is actually doing is feeding him a line of bull sh!t.

Reconciliation happens when the betrayed spouse jumps on the affair with both both feet and the wayward spouse sees they are losing their family............and cares. Stringing it out always fails.

Grid, ask your wife if now that she's filed for divorce, you are now free to date. I know you won't but that's what a strong man will do.

Anger is not strength, anger is weakness when uncontrolled. Resolve in the face of adversity is strength and that's what your lacking. At this point, you should be doing the 180, preparing to break up the family and letting her come to you to save it. You cant, your weak, your wife sees it and that's why she's gone.


----------



## jld

gridcom said:


> The above quoted is very good and accurate
> 
> There is NO scenario where an "open" marriage exists. I would never allow that. Of course I've told her I lover, a gatrillion times. I have also been humble at times. And MEM said something about being a vice, not a hammer. I would say what I do is more a vice, not a hammer. I don't explode in anger, ever. I just apply pressure and dont let go until resolution


Grid, not to be harsh, but . . .

You told her to move out when she got home late after work a few weeks ago (after you threw up on the side of the house). I doubt that was said gently and lovingly. You threatened to not pay the mortgage anymore last week. I doubt that was said tenderly, either. She likely received that as anger, even if you do not see it that way.

And don't forget, she has years of your mistreatment of her as a background to interpret your behavior. She is weighing that lived experience against whatever efforts you are making now.

LW, I think you mischaracterize my position. I am not asking grid to condone her affair. I am asking him to work on himself so she is naturally drawn to him instead of the young man at work. 

I think many people in this thread are underestimating how powerful a man's treatment of his wife is. There just seems to be a desire to punish and control her from several posters. I don't think that works in the long run.


----------



## gridcom

Well, since we are splitting hairs...I didnt puke on the side of the house. I puked on the grass, but not on the house. The grass in question happens to be on the side of the house. Otherwise I would have said the front yard


----------



## farsidejunky

gridcom said:


> Well, since we are splitting hairs...I didnt puke on the side of the house. I puked on the grass, but not on the house. The grass in question happens to be on the side of the house. Otherwise I would have said the front yard


Good, Grid. Actually puking on the house would have taken away any moral high ground you may have had...

Hang on to that sense of humor, brother. It is going to be important as you work your way through this.


----------



## bfree

Actually I don't think grid should try to control his wife. Nor do I think he should try to win his wife. In her current incarnation she is no prize. Rather I think he should let her go completely. I agree with you that he should work on himself but not for any purpose other than to be the best man he can be, for himself. If he does this effectively and for the right reasons then the future will take care of itself.


----------



## bandit.45

bfree said:


> Actually I don't think grid should try to control his wife. Nor do I think he should try to win his wife. In her current incarnation she is no prize. Rather I think he should let her go completely. I agree with you that he should work on himself but not for any purpose other than to be the best man he can be, for himself. If he does this effectively and for the right reasons then the future will take care of itself.


I agree. 

Total release, total 180. 

She has made it clear that she is not going to forgive his past bad behavior, so in that situation the only recourse is for him to see to his own well being, healing and personal growth. 

I think he needs to do the 180 hard, divorce her, and move on.


----------



## jld

I would like to make an analogy here that might make Mrs. Grid's feelings more understandable. It may be rather crude, but I would like to try. And grid, let me know if you want me to remove it, okay?



Let's say for the last twelve years they have been married, grid's wife had sex with him once every two months. Grid wanted more, but it stayed every two months, as that was what was comfortable for her.

Let's say in the last year grid developed a friendship at work with a woman a dozen years older (that would put her at 55 to his 43). She listens to him, laughs at his jokes, makes him feel important. Finally, they sleep together.

Grid is torn. Someone appreciates him! Someone affirms him! There is sunshine out there!

But he knows it is wrong. He knows, from deep down inside, that it is just plain wrong.

He goes home and confesses to his wife. His wife is angry, clearly hurt. She tells friends and family. Their daughter finds out. 

Grid goes to church, attends a men's bible study, knows what he has done is wrong. Sees the disapproval from family. Sees the pain on his daughter's face. He reads a convicting article on how a family man should be. He tries for a week or so to follow it.

But the longing . . . the soul feeding . . . his being nurtured by the spirit of a woman . . . It is so hard to let all that go!

Mrs. Grid in the meantime is doing some soul searching of her own. As much as sex once every two months feels right and normal to her, she knows grid did not feel the same way. She decides she will step it up to once every two to three weeks. That should certainly be seen as an improvement. He should appreciate her efforts.

Grid sees her increased availability, and he does appreciate it . . . to an extent. But it does not feel genuine like his lover does. With her he feels affirmed, like a man in a way he has not since he can remember with his wife.

Amidst all the disapproval, all the guilt, all the blame, grid wonders if he can go back, commit fully, to his wife. Is her change for real? Does he matter to her as an individual, with his own feelings, at all? Will he ever? Or is he just supposed to act out of duty the rest of his life? Just be what she and the kids need.

People try to point out that a twelve year difference with a woman could be a real challenge if grid left his family for her. But that does not really seem very important to grid in the moment. He feels like he has finally gotten a long, refreshing drink of cold water after more than a decade of occasional, tightly monitored, lukewarm sips.

Her sister mentions to Mrs. Grid that now that grid has drunk from that cup of cool water, he will always be at risk from wanting more. How selfish of him to not be satisfied with those lukewarm sips! Especially now that he gets two or even three at a time, and not one like before!

Mrs. Grid goes to an online forum where she seems to be encouraged by other betrayed wives and even some husbands to punish grid for his disobedience and sense of entitlement. She almost feels berated for not putting strict controls in place over him, or moving swiftly towards divorcing him. 

They cannot seem to see beyond his PA. Nothing else seems to matter to them. 

Mrs. Grid actually starts to feel sorry for the husbands of those women. Is reconciliation really supposed to be lifetime punishment for her husband, she wonders? How do the husbands of those women bear living with them?

Mrs. Grid is torn. As justified as she feels in her anger, she has been turning his reasons for the affair over in her mind, too. She is feeling convicted, too. 

But it is so hard to give up her sense of rightness! So hard to put pride and hurt aside and really feel *his* pain!

Yet something tells her that she is going to have to if they are ever going to heal from this. And despite it all, Mrs. Grid still would like to try to heal the marriage.

Two posters on the forum share articles showing how sincere humility and empathy can turn marriages around. Mrs. Grid reflects deeply on those articles. She sees truth in them. She knows they would be hard to follow, to look into her husband's heart, to feel his pain, to feel her own pain as she looks at her own hand in their troubles. 

It feels so much easier, and much more satisfying, just to blame her husband. He is the sinner here, her pride tells her! 

But another part of her knows that if he were strong enough to take the lead in their healing, he would not have had an affair in the first place. 

Will Mrs. Grid take the step of leadership, the step of developing empathy, the step of first reaching out to meet her WH's needs? 

Stay tuned for the ongoing saga of the family grid . . .


----------



## LongWalk

jld,

I understand where you're coming from. You are not entirely wrong. I think we all know couples who don't treat each other right. Years ago my ex and I were friends with a couple. The husband played the piano well. He was raised by single mother. He was strongly opinionated. His wife was very kind and hard working. Smart, to boot. They started a company together and the company was literally Husband's Name Ltd. He was the director. She was the assistant. In reality she was a far better businessman than her husband. He was not subtle enough to win people over. His wife was the key to their success. He was more of a liability. His ego just would not allow him to treat her with the respect she was due. He cheated on her and disappeared, leaving her to raise their son. He got full scholarship to a top music school. His father gave him classical music but his mother was the one who nurtured him. The husband was an irresponsible jerk. Do doubt being a single son to single mom spoiled him.

Gridcom is not like that guy. He has gone over his faults with a great deal of introspection. He is not person who refuses to learn from his mistakes.

I agree with you that Gridcom should not lose his temper and make threats, regardless of whatever direction their marriage is going. Right now he is mate guarding. That's no way to live. I also agree that truly remorseful cheater is not likely to cheat again. It is more likely that Mrs Gridcom will warm to him if she feels that he is going to be fair, kind and forgiving. She may even desire his trust. If she feels that he will never trust her again, reconciliation may not be attractive to her. To be forever the traitor who is on the edge of committing a new betrayal. That's not a good marriage. 

I agree with your notion that Grid should be a rock. He should play the drums. He should take his 5-year-old to swimming classes. Bake pizza for dinner. Sleep in his own bed. Act normal and fade till you make it.

He can use MC to limit discussion about the affair and its fallout to one place. 

Daily relationship talk with his wife is now rather pointless. However, he needs to know if she considers them separated and no longer in a monogamous marriage. If she equivocates about that, he should just do the 180 and expedite the divorce, without useless discussion.

Grid,

What is waiting period for divorce with children in your state?

Have you asked your wife if she expects you not to see other women?

Wonder what Ray's wife, a poet, thought of this song?

Most important you have to learn to laugh, not at your wife. But at yourself and the human condition. That will help you to survive this come what may.


----------



## convert

cbnero said:


> Wait, is jld really Mrs. Gridcom?


>


----------



## bfree

The difference is, in spite of all his shortcomings, Grid has honor.


----------



## ButtPunch

bfree said:


> Actually I don't think grid should try to control his wife. Nor do I think he should try to win his wife. In her current incarnation she is no prize. Rather I think he should let her go completely. I agree with you that he should work on himself but not for any purpose other than to be the best man he can be, for himself. If he does this effectively and for the right reasons then the future will take care of itself.


I agree totally. 

His raging desire to save his marriage at all cost will probably
cause it's demise.


----------



## jld

Again, I think you are attributing too much power to her, LW.

I think grid is only about halfway where he needs to be. He is still looking to her instead of taking charge of their situation.

Though I would certainly agree that he is much farther along than a lot of men seem to get.


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> I agree totally.
> 
> *His raging desire to save his marriage at all cost *will probably
> cause it's demise.


Where do you see _that?_

I see too much 50/50 thinking in grid right now.


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> I just apply pressure and dont let go until resolution



Women don't work this way. Your constants pressure to her just looks like you are trying to convince her of something. Weak needy and unattractive. 

Emotional communication will get her attention. The 180 will get her attention. You not putting pressure on fixing this marriage will get her attention.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> Where do you see _that?_
> 
> I see too much 50/50 thinking in grid right now.


Because I have lived it. I tend to watch Grid's actions more so than what he's saying. I look and see where he is at this many days after DDay. He's getting better but slowly. His recognition that he and his girls will be okay no matter what and his humorous response yesterday are progress.


----------



## jld

Progress towards what? Divorce?


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> Progress towards what? Divorce?


Progress thru the seven stages of grief. Infidelity is as painful as losing a loved one to death. Some would say more so. He needs to experience all of these grief stages and come thru it emotionally healthy again before he will even be capable of knowing if he wants to reconcile or not.

Again I am pro-marriage especially when kids are involved.


----------



## jld

I think he should just take the attitude that they are going to have a successful reconciliation, inspired by his changing himself into a more empathetic person. 

You have heard that saying, "You cannot afford the luxury of a negative thought"? I think that applies here.


----------



## Thor

Grid is a Nice Guy. Nice Guys get crushed by unremorseful WWs. I've got to step out of this thread now, the coming train wreck can be seen from a mile away.


----------



## jld

Nice Guy is when a man makes covert contracts with his wife and then withdraws or gets passive-aggressive when she does not respond the way he wants to his "nice" behavior, right?

Grid does not seem like that to me. He gets mad and is direct with his anger. I am asking him to get a hold of his anger.

Also, NGs usually marry women stronger than themselves, right? Women who accept to take care of them? I don't see that with grid's wife.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> I think he should just take the attitude that they are going to have a successful reconciliation, inspired by his changing himself into a more empathetic person.
> 
> You have heard that saying, "You cannot afford the luxury of a negative thought"? I think that applies here.


Divorce isn't a negative thought.

Reconciliation isn't a negative thought.

I think what you are trying to do is no different manipulation than if he just threatened to take her kids away from her if she tries to divorce him. Manipulation and control are the same either by the nice guy "I will self improve and wait for you" route or the tough guy threats and abusive route. 

IMO....both are the wrong advice to be giving. I don't think we should waste one second of our or Grids time with the "How to win your WW wife back advice"


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> Nice Guy is when a man makes covert contracts with his wife and then withdraws or gets passive-aggressive when she does not respond the way he wants to his "nice" behavior, right?


This is the definition of codependent behavior


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> Divorce isn't a negative thought.
> 
> Reconciliation isn't a negative thought.
> 
> I think what you are trying to do is no different manipulation than if he just threatened to take her kids away from her if she tries to divorce him. Manipulation and control are the same either by the nice guy "I will self improve and wait for you" route or the tough guy threats and abusive route.
> 
> IMO....both are the wrong advice to be giving. I don't think we should waste one second of our or Grids time with the "How to win your WW wife back advice"


I am trying to restore something here, BP. Even build on it. Something that was once beautiful and created two lovely girls. Something that could go back to being beautiful.

I think there are three ways to see this. One is 100-0, grid's wife-grid. In other words, it is all on her to fix this. He is the victim.

The next is 50-50. They each need to own their mistakes and come together to fix them. Pretty hard to do if one is still in the affair fog. Grid ends up frustrated, feeling she is not doing her share of the work.

The last is 0-100, grid's wife-grid. It puts the onus on grid to be the leader, to do the work to get reconciliation going. He knows reconciliation is the best thing for his family, for many different reasons. And it really only takes his working on himself, setting aside his pride and hurt feelings and just focusing on getting them back on track.

Getting up every time he falls. Perseverance. Keeping his eyes on the prize: his family's long term best interests.

Which approach do you think will best build grid's character?


----------



## gridcom

Weird to read this stuff in my office. Bright lights above, I'm even wearing clothes that you wear outside. I liked jld's story from 10 posts ago. It's accurate. 

I hope nobody is looking over my shoulder reading this right now


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> Nice Guy is when a man makes covert contracts with his wife and then withdraws or gets passive-aggressive when she does not respond the way he wants to his "nice" behavior, right?
> 
> Grid does not seem like that to me. He gets mad and is direct with his anger. I am asking him to get a hold of his anger.
> 
> Also, NGs usually marry women stronger than themselves, right? Women who accept to take care of them? I don't see that with grid's wife.


Nice guys marry troubled partners more often than not, JLD.


----------



## manfromlamancha

This really is painful to observe from afar!

OK lets go over this again.

There is nothing that Gridcom did that doesn't happen in almost EVERY marriage. None of that justifies cheating.

Now over to Mrs. Gridcom. She is not broken. She is not hurt. She is not damaged. And most importantly of all, she is NOT A NICE PERSON.

She got horny over a younger [email protected] at work! She then got him into bed and fvcked him! She then told Gridcom (some of it I still believe, not all of it) and blamed Gridcom for it. She continued to see the POSOM and has told Gridcom that she is not sure if she wants to stop fvcking him. Talk about cold, callous and disrespectful. She has told Gridcom that she now has no feelings for Gridcom and its all his fault.

And Gridcom, like so many other betrayed spouses, is taking the blame for it and punishing himself and some of us are not even attempting to stop him from thinking like this (as we should).

Now that she knows the POSOM is not relationship material she is looking for another way out.

And the advice some of us are giving Gridcom is to continue to take (even partial) responsibility for it going wrong and her fvcking the younger POS and to try and improve himself and also nice her back (OMG). There is no starting line or baseline for a reconciliation here.

The starting line would be Mrs Gridcom realises that she loves Gridcom after all and that she made all that sh!t up about why she just had to fvck the younger POS (and this is a MASSIVE first step). Then she has to want to fight harder than anything she has ever done before to try and put it right in actions (MASSIVE second step). And then the two of them have to fully realise that reconciliation is going to be extremely difficult and painful with a small chance of success (whatever you define success to be because there will ALWAYS be pain involved for Gridcom). 

At the moment we are a million miles away from where they both need to be for reconciliation and the healthy and wise thing for Gridcom to do would be to dump her a$$, stop blaming himself and protect his kids and assets. Let her go and REALLY experience the consequences of her lust and bad behaviour!

Jesus Henry Christ!!!


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> I am trying to restore something here, BP. Even build on it. Something that was once beautiful and created two lovely girls. Something that could go back to being beautiful.
> 
> I think there are three ways to see this. One is 100-0, grid's wife-grid. In other words, it is all on her to fix this. He is the victim.
> 
> The next is 50-50. They each need to own their mistakes and come together to fix them. Pretty hard to do if one is still in the affair fog. Grid ends up frustrated, feeling she is not doing her share of the work.
> 
> The last is 0-100, grid's wife-grid. It puts the onus on grid to be the leader, to do the work to get reconciliation going. He knows reconciliation is the best thing for his family, for many different reasons. And it really only takes his working on himself, setting aside his pride and hurt feelings and just focusing on getting them back on track.
> 
> Getting up every time he falls. Perseverance. Keeping his eyes on the prize: his family's long term best interests.
> 
> Which approach do you think will best build grid's character?


OK....I give up. We clearly are not going to see eye to eye. You see this as Grid becoming a rock and sucking up his emotions (anger) while fixing his side of the street in order to woo his wife back.

I see it as flat out attempt to manipulate and control her. 

You see it as strong and manly and I see it as weak and desperate. 

I respect your opinion especially the Grid needs to better himself portions even though I disagree with most of the rest.

You want grid to save his marriage, and I want grid to recover and self improve no matter what happens.


----------



## MEM2020

LW,
He ought to start with the money. 




LongWalk said:


> jld,
> 
> I understand where you're coming from. You are not entirely wrong. I think we all know couples who don't treat each other right. Years ago my ex and I were friends with a couple. The husband played the piano well. He was raised by single mother. He was strongly opinionated. His wife was very kind and hard working. Smart, to boot. They started a company together and the company was literally Husband's Name Ltd. He was the director. She was the assistant. In reality she was a far better businessman than her husband. He was not subtle enough to win people over. His wife was the key to their success. He was more of a liability. His ego just would not allow him to treat her with the respect she was due. He cheated on her and disappeared, leaving her to raise their son. He got full scholarship to a top music school. His father gave him classical music but his mother was the one who nurtured him. The husband was an irresponsible jerk. Do doubt being a single son to single mom spoiled him.
> 
> Gridcom is not like that guy. He has gone over his faults with a great deal of introspection. He is not person who refuses to learn from his mistakes.
> 
> I agree with you that Gridcom should not lose his temper and make threats, regardless of whatever direction their marriage is going. Right now he is mate guarding. That's no way to live. I also agree that truly remorseful cheater is not likely to cheat again. It is more likely that Mrs Gridcom will warm to him if she feels that he is going to be fair, kind and forgiving. She may even desire his trust. If she feels that he will never trust her again, reconciliation may not be attractive to her. To be forever the traitor who is on the edge of committing a new betrayal. That's not a good marriage.
> 
> I agree with your notion that Grid should be a rock. He should play the drums. He should take his 5-year-old to swimming classes. Bake pizza for dinner. Sleep in his own bed. Act normal and fade till you make it.
> 
> He can use MC to limit discussion about the affair and its fallout to one place.
> 
> Daily relationship talk with his wife is now rather pointless. However, he needs to know if she considers them separated and no longer in a monogamous marriage. If she equivocates about that, he should just do the 180 and expedite the divorce, without useless discussion.
> 
> Grid,
> 
> What is waiting period for divorce with children in your state?
> 
> Have you asked your wife if she expects you not to see other women?
> 
> Wonder what Ray's wife, a poet, thought of this song?
> 
> Most important you have to learn to laugh, not at your wife. But at yourself and the human condition. That will help you to survive this come what may.


----------



## LongWalk

Jld,

There was one BH on TAM who did what you recommend. His wife cheated on him three times. He was her rock. The first Time she fell down he chased her and tried to fix her. Then she found a corrupt doctor who was the mirror of her dysfunction.

That doctor wanted to draw her in to an affair to feed his sick ego because he was a former drug addict. He wanted this her so that he could have a codependent; in her messed up state she chose to consumate the EA. Immediately she realized it was a misjudgment.

But now her husband was done. She was still not ready/able to fix herself. She began the third betrayal, a new relapse into addiction. Her husband filed for divorce. He stopped chasing her. He stayed home with their two small children and took care of them.

At last she was busted, lost her job and was down by law. The BH picked her up and drove her to rehab. He helped her cash out her IRA to pay for treatment. When he dropped her off he did not say that he loved her. What difference would the words make?

He could have pushed the D through, killing her hope of reconciliation. But he put it on hold. Never did he say that he would be waiting on the other side. Never did he say "I love you" on the phone.

When she got out clean, she went home but not with a blank check. She had to prove herself trustworthy. He didn't need her and she knew it. That made living up to her end of the marriage deal different. The couple became partners who loved and respected each other instead codependents who loved and disrespected each other.

The man was wise by the end of it all. And she is no dummy either.

I'll bet he still doesn't say he loves her more than once month. 

Grid and his wife are in a codependent relationship. He is iron and she is water. Together they rust. Along comes OM and sees the chance to screw around. Sexual exclusivity can hold codependent couples together despite the rust. Once it is gone the structure will fall.

Grid is learning fast. Now that his WW wants divorce, he needs to stop chasing her. He needs to quit worrying about her because he cannot steer her or lead her. He can only stick to the right path.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ThreeStrikes

jld said:


> Which approach do you think will best build grid's character?


People with character and integrity don't maintain relationships with unrepentant cheaters.

Do you encourage your children to have friendships with children of low moral character? Drug users? Smokers? Sexually promiscuous?

Grid married a cheater. A lot of us did. He realizes that now. 

He's going to be a different man a year from now, when he has detoxed from this crappy relationship. That's all the character building he needs.

I don't know about you folks, but I don't want or need to be a "rock" in my relationship. And I don't need her to be either. We're all adults here.


----------



## Chuck71

manfromlamancha said:


> Now that she knows the POSOM is not relationship material she is looking for another way out.


NOT relationship material!!!!! NO.... you have to be schitting me LOL

Let's see.... WW cheats with much younger POS and he promises her roses and fine wine.

WW falls hook, line, sinker.... WW tells BH to GFY we're through. WW happily skips away to POS.

POS throws everything into neutral. WW continues to push for LTR, POS goes in reverse.

WW realizes this and she is mad as he!!. She takes it out on............ BH.

"It's your fault I cheated, your fault he dumped me, your fault exit strategy turned to schit"

As long as BH takes all the blame, the WW shirks herself from any.

Now back to the Days of our Gridcom


----------



## ButtPunch

Chuck71 said:


> NOT relationship material!!!!! NO.... you have to be schitting me LOL
> 
> Let's see.... WW cheats with much younger POS and he promises her roses and fine wine.
> 
> WW falls hook, line, sinker.... WW tells BH to GFY we're through. WW happily skips away to POS.
> 
> POS throws everything into neutral. WW continues to push for LTR, POS goes in reverse.
> 
> WW realizes this and she is mad as he!!. She takes it out on............ BH.
> 
> "It's your fault I cheated, your fault he dumped me, your fault exit strategy turned to schit"
> 
> As long as BH takes all the blame, the WW shirks herself from any.
> 
> Now back to the Days of our Gridcom



I remember blaming myself too. If I would have just spent more quality time with her but I was too busy running a business and coaching my little kids sports teams. It's all my fault we drifted apart. I'm the man and I should have took charge of this.

In reality, it had nothing to do me.


----------



## ButtPunch

ThreeStrikes said:


> People with character and integrity don't maintain relationships with unrepentant cheaters.
> .


Healthy people that is. Codependents think they can fix their spouses and will cling to the abuse.


----------



## Chuck71

ButtPunch said:


> I remember blaming myself too. If I would have just spent more quality time with her but I was too busy running a business and coaching my little kids sports teams. It's all my fault we drifted apart. I'm the man and I should have took charge of this.
> 
> In reality, it had nothing to do me.


You wanted to shoulder the blame.... you are man, problem you, fix you

In a way, most men want to do this because they know they can trust themselves to fix everything.

As you said... the entire problem was not you. The FOO issues she had were not yours to carry....

But in fairy tales, we are told to, happily ever after, la la la la

WC almost had me believing that at one point. Then I stepped in dog schit and I had an epiphany....

I also cleaned up the poop "like a Nice Guy would" with.... the $75 outfit she had just bought.


----------



## LongWalk

Gridcom is getting it.

He needs to detach. Learn to laugh.

Maybe he should even quit trying to track her. Since they are divorcing at her request, I personally don't consider them a couple bound by vows of monogamy. This is complicated by their inability to separate. But Gridcom could can spell it out to her like this:

WW, you have filed for divorce. That is your right. You don't have to justify yourself. I am not going fight to hold on when you want out. Right now we have to wait XX days for it be finalized by the state. When can rush to sell out house and separate or we can split methodically to maximize our economic interest. If you want to sleep with other men while we are waiting for divorce, that is your right, but in that case we must separate immediately. If you can wait for your freedom, I will also hold off dating. We can use the XX days to put things in order. We can consult with each other and keep tight control of our household economy and debt (Mem's idea). This is common interest.

If she says that she does not want to date, then Grid must continue to check on her.

Since divorce is the goal Grid can begin to rebuild his life. Will WW wake up and want to join him? Who knows? He should be skeptical. For them to succeed in R, she will have to do a lot, such as tell the truth about her cheating. That is tough. So he should not sit around hoping for it.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Look, I'm no longer going to engage jld's non infidleity experience. You have chosen her path, while ignoring your wife's actions, which I completely understand. 

All I'll say is, since you gave her access to the thread, you are in for a very rude awakening because your wife is being EXTREMELY smart in her actions. Keep underestimating her at your own risk. You need to let your lawyer see this thread now. No, I am not kidding.


----------



## Evinrude58

I would just like to reiterate what others have said: Grid, you are vastly over-exaggerating your own role in your wife's unhappiness. It's what this situation does to a man. It happened to me. 

Please try to start visualizing a life without her, detaching from her. It's your only chance to act in a strong way. Your wife is only stringing you along for her benefit. She has done absolutely nothing to take care of your feelings or your future, or your daughters. She will likely want to come back one day. You are guaranteed NOT to want her, even for the benefit of your daughter. Once you detach, you will see what a low character, disloyal, untrustworthy person she is. You can't deal with those characteristics--- nobody can.

Good luck,
Evinrude


----------



## gridcom

phillybeffandswiss said:


> You have chosen her path, while ignoring your wife's actions, which I completely understand.


Pretty much the most frustrating thing about TAM, right here. It's not that black and white. I am not IGNORING anything, you dig? I am protecting myself legally and emotionally. It's just a FACT that where jld is coming from has a lot of merit. That it drives some of you insane drives me insane.

It also drives me insane that some of you insist that I am sitting on my hands.

Insane


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Have you let your lawyer see this thread? 

Yes, you have ignored things. Some things are black and white. LOL. Insane? I give my opinion freely and constantly say "do what you feel is correct." Now, if we could only get your feeling of butt hurt and insanity towards posters aimed in the proper direction.:grin2::grin2:0


----------



## gridcom

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Have you let your lawyer see this thread?
> 
> Yes, you have ignored things. Some things are black and white. LOL. Insane? I give my opinion freely and constantly say "do what you feel is correct." Now, if we could only get your feeling of butt hurt and insanity towards posters aimed in the proper direction.:grin2::grin2:0


Based on the fact we are 85 pages in, I'd estimate it would take about 8 hours of speed reading to get through this entire thing at $450 per hour. Plus, he really shouldnt care, should he? It's law. I am in NY state. Infidelity means nothing in this state, literally. I was told that judges hate it even being listed because it's meaningless. 

Again, how jld writes accurately expresses my wife's feelings (better than my wife does, to be honest) And it is true that I should focus my energy completely on things in my control and it's damn hard. 

That said, I am not that dumb and I am telling you, I am over the emotional part of this and can finally think more clearly.


----------



## LongWalk

Gridcom,

You might request that the moderators make your thread Private.


----------



## gridcom

LongWalk said:


> Gridcom,
> 
> You might request that the moderators make your thread Private.


Nah, I honestly dont care. I didnt come here to make it private or exclusive. I do appreciate all the concern and comments. I'm not that sensitive.


----------



## ButtPunch

Grid

Have you read any of the books recommended earlier in your thread.

Married Mans Sex Life Primer
No More Mr. Nice Guy
Codependent No More


----------



## gridcom

ButtPunch said:


> Grid
> 
> Have you read any of the books recommended earlier in your thread.
> 
> Married Mans Sex Life Primer
> No More Mr. Nice Guy
> Codependent No More


None of those. I've read "Not Just Friends" and "The DNA of Relationships". Right now I am trying to only read the bible and countless internet articles and also a ton of work e-mails . I was going to read "His Needs, Her Needs" but haven't purchased yet


----------



## Evinrude58

Grid, 
A few questions if you feel like answering them:

1) Do you think your wife still loves you?
2) Do you think if you show your wife that your opinion of how you've handled things with her or treated her in the past has changed, and that you are truly wanting to be a different person, will make her change her mind about divorcing you?
3) Do you think she is attracted to you physically, and if not, do you think that will change?

I do absolutely agree that if your wife was remorseful about what she'd done, that you could probably rebuild the marriage. I just don't think she is. She has taken too many years complaining about you and hearing what a bad husband you are from her friends, relatives, and now the other man, that she can't see her own role in the relationship that caused her unhappiness. She refuses to see that she has done a horrible thing that requires begging forgiveness to even begin to atone. She also refuses to find a new job and get away from the POSOM. 
I think that jld is giving you false, dangerous hope that your wife still somehow loves you and that reconciling is all about YOU changing your behavior for the better. It's predicated on the belief that your wife really does want to reconcile, and that she is remorseful about what she has done. From what you have said, I don't believe that is the case at all. What evidence does JLD have that makes her think your wife stlll cares about you?? All her advice does is put you in the position of thinking:
1) it's your fault she cheated
2) there's something you can do about what has happened that will make her love you again. 

SHOULD your wife give you another chance? ABSOLUTELY. For herself, and for your daughter. She will find that all men have problems, and that yours are all minor and that the one thing that she values least and should value most is that you really lOVE her. She won't find that easily. This POSOM certainly does not. Guaranteed. And does she think the POSOM could actually trust and respect her in a long term relationship after what she has so blatantly done to you? No possibility. That's one of the extensive list of things that make him a POS. He's ruining a marriage with no regard to anyone but himself. He must be a real catch to have to resort to chasing married women. Then again, she may have come to him......
Should you give her another chance? No, but that's not important. What's important is that you won't let her go. 

The fact that the only reason she is not gone, according to her, is for financial reasons is just disgusting. 

I am very glad that you are seeing a lawyer, and that you are trying to get past the emotional side of this, although from experience I think you are far more emotional than you let on. That's fine, never let her see you sweat. No anger.
Maybe you will have the miracle that none of us ever saw.
I truly do hope this works out for the best.


----------



## happy as a clam

turnera said:


> You've been asked to stay off threads when you start beating this drum because it frankly does more damage than good. Maybe you should, instead of pushing this unrealistic version of life so hard, start asking yourself why this keeps happening to you.


:iagree:

I would love to jump into this thread and offer some salient advice, but I see another hundred-page derailment (just like Anon1111's thread).

grid, hang in there... It always comes back full circle.

(Nothing personal against anyone here. I just know how these things go )
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thundarr

gridcom said:


> Case in point regarding trust. I am going to my office tomorrow for the first time since late June. Amazing I've worked from home the entire summer. And I have yet to tell her what time I am leaving etc because I still have this nagging feeling that her alone in the house while the kids are at school could be bad news for me. That's not healthy
> 
> If she is actually being honest and not having any contact with OM, then I can imagine that my walking paranoia is frustrating to her. But, what does she expect? That my paranoia is frustrating to her shows that she just doesnt get how deep the wound goes.


For me there's not much better than a great marriage and not much worse than a bad one. You're currently living the worse case scenario being trapped in a bad marriage with daily stress and worry. You're trapped by your desire for your kids family to be intact and by fear. Fear of uncertainty, of not having some control, of looking like you failed, of feeling like you failed, of being alone, of starting over. The problem is that these fears have put you into a constant state of damage control, snooping and monitoring and that's a miserable way to live. You'll look back on this time in your life some day and realize that you sabotaged yourself into thinking you have more control than you actually do.

The thing about reconciliation after infidelity is that there's no room left for lying or excuses. True reconciliation takes both parties doing a lot of lifting and infidelity is something she has to own because it's something she did. There may be things you need to own too but not her cheating. There's not room for blame shifting, lying or minimizing, and there has to be complete transparency and honesty whether it's easy or not. It takes both people doing their part. What I know for certain is that if you're afraid to leave her alone at home then it not working. If she's lying to you about ANYTHING or if you're lying to her then it's not working. You've got to get out of the place your at whether it means reconciliation or whether is means divorce. Either are better than being stuck in the mudd.


----------



## MEM2020

DISCLAIMER: 
The post below is based on my capacity as a TAM contributor not as a MOD. 

Grid,
So here's the thing. To some of the folks posting on this thread - you are an avatar in a massive multiplayer role playing game. The game is called EarthLife, and you are playing in the US sub net. 

Sadly those people can ONLY see two avatars - yours and your wife's. And they are intensely emotionally invested in you NOT losing to her. Any outcome is ok as long as she does not WIN. 

There is however however an ADVANCED GAME PLAYER CLASS - (AGPC). Sadly there is no official designation for that class. The people in it - and there are very few - have no official status or account label. 

Oh - and - while I'm in the apprentice program - I'm not in the AGPC class. I just know a couple members. 

So here's the deal. The AGPC folks have the following qualities. 

- A child like level of transparency. This is of course alternately endearing and infuriating, depending on what has popped into their heads. Painfully honest is an understatement. 
- Ultra wide angle lens view. They see the whole board. Including your kids. 
- They want you to enroll in their - emotional PX90 class. Want you to be focused on strength and goodness. Not on power and winning. 
- And they aren't just wide angle optically, but also temporally. Don't care about short term set backs and scuffles. Their focus is on the long game. 
- One last thing. While they often make infuriating (true) comments, they themselves are rarely angry. 

Ultimately only you can decide wether to accept advice from overtly angry/vengeful folks, or an overtly calm and peaceful person. 





gridcom said:


> Pretty much the most frustrating thing about TAM, right here. It's not that black and white. I am not IGNORING anything, you dig? I am protecting myself legally and emotionally. It's just a FACT that where jld is coming from has a lot of merit. That it drives some of you insane drives me insane.
> 
> It also drives me insane that some of you insist that I am sitting on my hands.
> 
> Insane


----------



## turnera

gridcom said:


> None of those. I've read "Not Just Friends" and "The DNA of Relationships". Right now I am trying to only read the bible and countless internet articles and also a ton of work e-mails . I was going to read "His Needs, Her Needs" but haven't purchased yet


Ah.

So you're seeking advice, but are not particularly interested in anything that requires you to do any soul-searching, or worse, changing in your belief system or method of dealing with things. 

You gravitate toward the 'kiss my wife's butt' method because it's what you're familiar with and you don't have to fundamentally change yourself, such as might be asked of you if you were to read No More Mr Nice Guy. 

That makes a lot more sense.


----------



## turnera

fwiw, I FULLY subscribe to jld's 'kiss your wife's butt' method. In nearly every single situation. 

Except one.

When the wife is still committed to another man.

It's becoming less clear to me, with the massive amounts of posts, of what is REALLY going on with your wife. Is she still talking to OM? Is she seeing him at work? Does she even see him in pass-by? Does she say she wants him or wishes she had him? Is she adamant about wanting another man other than you?

If the above is the case, then kissing butts is DANGEROUS to saving your marriage.

If she has thrown all that out and is now just floundering, not knowing what she wants...by all means, kiss her butt. But PLEASE call her bluff when she tells you it's all your fault. Not because it may or not be. But because she needs to see that YOU have self respect. She cannot respect you - and thus desire you - if you don't first respect yourself.

ETA: For clarity. In my experience, once the woman commits to leaving the AP behind, *THEN* you should be kissing her butt to the moon and back and showing her what a great catch you are. And you two can reconnect and be blissfully happy. But if you are doing it WHILE she is perusing the goods in the 'man' store, butt-kissing is disgusting to the woman. Weak. Pathetic.

Which is why I asked. HAS she realized it was stupid, she doesn't really love him, he's a jerk? Or does she still defend him?


----------



## gridcom

Evinrude58 said:


> Grid,
> A few questions if you feel like answering them:
> 
> 1) Do you think your wife still loves you?
> 
> NO
> 
> 2) Do you think if you show your wife that your opinion of how you've handled things with her or treated her in the past has changed, and that you are truly wanting to be a different person, will make her change her mind about divorcing you?
> 
> NOT SURE, TIME WILL TELL
> 
> 3) Do you think she is attracted to you physically, and if not, do you think that will change?
> 
> NOT SURE


----------



## Thundarr

turnera said:


> IT DOESN'T MATTER what the other issues in the marriage are, if there is STILL a third person in it.
> 
> Once the cheater has kicked out the AP for good, by all means BOTH of you lower yourself to ground level and start hashing out where the marriage went wrong (that's IF the BS can stomach staying with the 'former' WS, and that is NOT a given).
> 
> But until the WS is 95% on board with seeing WHY the AP has to go and is willing to move mountains to no longer contact him, the BS lowering himself to the ground to show all his warts does nothing but remind the WS why she went looking.
> 
> 
> jld said:
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree. She is going to see soon enough the flaws of the young man at her work. We want grid to look much better in comparison.
> 
> He can focus on cleaning up his side of the street. That will make an impression on her.
Click to expand...


Yes turnera, when there's a third person in the picture the deck is very stacked against the relationship. Not only are chemicals and hormones working in the favor of new versus old but the whole concept of being fought for further inflates the emotional high. The desire of people to absolve themselves of wrong doings further stacks the deck toward the WS looking for reasons to blame their partner. There's just no way to nice or swoon away that guilt.

JLD, are you suggesting that Grid should let this play out and wait on AP to look bad? He's in an affair with a married woman and apparently that doesn't look bad to Grid's wife so she's not really judging him based on merit at the moment and probably won't be any time soon. I believe many cheaters resent the partner who stays with them. They lose respect because they've done things to this other person that they would not let anyone do to them (at least that's what they believe). They decide that if their partner still wants them after they've betrayed them then maybe their partner is weak and afraid. That's the opposite of looking better in comparison to the other guy. That's just making the other guy look even better.


----------



## gridcom

turnera said:


> Is she still talking to OM?
> 
> NO
> 
> Is she seeing him at work?
> 
> THEY WORK TOGETHER ONE DAY A WEEK FOR ONE HOUR. SHE WORKS IN A DIFFERENT SECTION OF THE BUILDING, BUT IT ISNT LIKE THEY DONT SEE EACH OTHER
> 
> Does she even see him in pass-by? Does she say she wants him or wishes she had him?
> 
> SHE ADMITS TO HAVING FEELINGS SHE CANT SHAKE, BUT IS RESISTING DOING ANYTHING ABOUT IT. SHE WAS CAUGHT LOOKING AT HIS PLAYLIST ON SPOTIFY DEDICATED TO HER, AND DOWNPLAYS THE MEANING OF ALL OF THAT
> 
> Is she adamant about wanting another man other than you?
> 
> DEF NO. SHE SAYS RIGHT NOW, DESPITE FILING FOR DIVORCE, THAT SHE'D PREFER TO FIND A WAY BACK TO THE CENTER BUT ONLY IN A LEGIT AND LOVING WAY


----------



## turnera

Then I suggest you sit her down and have a talk with her. Tell her it's quite clear you really really want to stay married to her, but you have your own needs, too. And if she were to recommit to at least TRYING to improve the marriage, you'll be there 150% and she'll be shocked at how much you've learned these past few months. And that, after a few more months, say by January 1, she still doesn't see it working out with you, you'll walk away and wish her well. 

Tell her that you are asking her to consider doing this one thing before throwing away this family. What's the rush? And if she agrees to give it 'one more try,' then say 'then I need one thing from you. I need a show of faith from you that you ARE taking this seriously and not just biding your time til you can be with him. I need you to write OM a No Contact letter, stating that you are recommitting to your marriage and for that to work, you need to end all contact in whatever shape or form, including songlists. Do that one thing and I will drop the whole thing and recommit to showing you what marriage to me will look like. And if you can't or won't do that, I'll accept your decision and make plans to separate.'


----------



## MEM2020

Grid,

What is your priority? 

How she feels about you? 
Or
Constantly monitoring her to ensure she doesn't interact with the other man? 

The former is about strength, the latter is about power. 

Give her some room to breathe and let her decide that she WANTS to be with you. Or not. Accept that either way you will be fine.


----------



## MEM2020

This becomes immediately and irrevocably confrontational if she refuses. 

The budget needs doing with or without the OM. And it's a good opportunity to show that HE HAS a long term view of the marriage.

Grid ought to stay focused on: how she feels about HIM, AND how she treats HIM. 

She likely filed in part due to the non stop surveillance. A police state doesn't work as a model for marriage. 




turnera said:


> Then I suggest you sit her down and have a talk with her. Tell her it's quite clear you really really want to stay married to her, but you have your own needs, too. And if she were to recommit to at least TRYING to improve the marriage, you'll be there 150% and she'll be shocked at how much you've learned these past few months. And that, after a few more months, say by January 1, she still doesn't see it working out with you, you'll walk away and wish her well.
> 
> Tell her that you are asking her to consider doing this one thing before throwing away this family. What's the rush? And if she agrees to give it 'one more try,' then say 'then I need one thing from you. I need a show of faith from you that you ARE taking this seriously and not just biding your time til you can be with him. I need you to write OM a No Contact letter, stating that you are recommitting to your marriage and for that to work, you need to end all contact in whatever shape or form, including songlists. Do that one thing and I will drop the whole thing and recommit to showing you what marriage to me will look like. And if you can't or won't do that, I'll accept your decision and make plans to separate.'


----------



## gridcom

MEM11363 said:


> Grid,
> 
> What is your priority?
> 
> How she feels about you?
> Or
> Constantly monitoring her to ensure she doesn't interact with the other man?
> 
> The former is about strength, the latter is about power.
> 
> Give her some room to breathe and let her decide that she WANTS to be with you. Or not. Accept that either way you will be fine.


The former. I have accepted either way I'll be fine. As long as I can pay for tooth paste for fresh breath, the other (unknown/scary) side of this is an adventure I'm not afraid of (anymore)


----------



## Chuck71

Grid...... if you don't like pianos.... FF to 2:00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hzDSzQ0rzA


----------



## cbnero

MEM11363 said:


> DISCLAIMER:
> The post below is based on my capacity as a TAM contributor not as a MOD.
> 
> Grid,
> So here's the thing. To some of the folks posting on this thread - you are an avatar in a massive multiplayer role playing game. The game is called EarthLife, and you are playing in the US sub net.
> 
> Sadly those people can ONLY see two avatars - yours and your wife's. And they are intensely emotionally invested in you NOT losing to her. Any outcome is ok as long as she does not WIN.
> 
> There is however however an ADVANCED GAME PLAYER CLASS - (AGPC). Sadly there is no official designation for that class. The people in it - and there are very few - have no official status or account label.
> 
> Oh - and - while I'm in the apprentice program - I'm not in the AGPC class. I just know a couple members.
> 
> So here's the deal. The AGPC folks have the following qualities.
> 
> - A child like level of transparency. This is of course alternately endearing and infuriating, depending on what has popped into their heads. Painfully honest is an understatement.
> - Ultra wide angle lens view. They see the whole board. Including your kids.
> - They want you to enroll in their - emotional PX90 class. Want you to be focused on strength and goodness. Not on power and winning.
> - And they aren't just wide angle optically, but also temporally. Don't care about short term set backs and scuffles. Their focus is on the long game.
> - One last thing. While they often make infuriating (true) comments, they themselves are rarely angry.
> 
> Ultimately only you can decide wether to accept advice from overtly angry/vengeful folks, or an overtly calm and peaceful person.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gridcom said:
> 
> 
> 
> Pretty much the most frustrating thing about TAM, right here. It's not that black and white. I am not IGNORING anything, you dig? I am protecting myself legally and emotionally. It's just a FACT that where jld is coming from has a lot of merit. That it drives some of you insane drives me insane.
> 
> It also drives me insane that some of you insist that I am sitting on my hands.
> 
> Insane
Click to expand...

It's easy to say I'm in the blunt category.
But I am not about winning. I'm 100% pro marriage. There are no winners in divorce, only losers. My focus is the kid (s) and the mental stability of the parents.

There are lots of ways to make a point, the insult is one of them. Is it effective? Not always but sometimes.

In this case I feel the simple facts are being tip toed around and the reality of grids situation has been largely ignored. A good mix of alpha/beta/patient/easy going advice is helpful since every case is unique.

I have stated and will state again: jld is not giving bad advice, just bad advice for this situation. Mrs grid is irriational and in love with another man, who is still in the picture. 

My original posts advocated strong boundaries without filing for divorce. To give her a look at reality without severely separating the two of them. 

That doesn't mean I'm always right, assuredly I'm not, but experience is a good indicator of future results. Many of us saw this point coming a long ways out. And many of us wish we had the guidance from experienced people when we were at grids stage vs coming to TAM too late to make a difference. That's why I am vocal about unexperienced people advising a hurting desperate person. Jld keeps pushing grid to realize his own faults and how he was wrong. Maybe jld should realize she is grossly wrong as well.


----------



## MEM2020

Cbnero,

I never considered the fellow M2 fell in love with a legitimate competitor. 

I'm aware that I was lucky - that it didn't go physical. I was definitely in denial. That said, when the dust settled and he was 6 months in the rear view mirror, M2 confessed that the 3-4 incidents we had where she openly talked about moving out and/or divorce were driven by the fact she WAS in love with the OM. 

And then she volunteered the following, which she then repeated a few times over the following year.

BY FAR THE MOST ATTRACTIVE THING YOU DID DURING THAT TIME WAS, YOU SHOWED ABSOLUTELY NO FEAR OF THE OM. YOU WERE ALWAYS TOTALLY CERTAIN YOU WOULD "WIN". 

In truth that was as much cluelessness as confidence. It is also true that if M2 had said that she wanted a trial separation and was hoping that he and she could live together and see what happened...

My response would have been to say - Ok

And even though I didn't know WHY at the time, it is true that each time (except once - where she discussed moving out with our daughter prior to speaking with me) M2 flipped out and discussed moving out my response pattern was the same. 

I was sad, but not fearful. So I wasn't angry. Sad for me, sadder for her. She seemed unhappy. So, if I had to characterize my affect it was: empathetic 

And the mechanics of that response were - that I was - helpful. 

For instance: Do you want to move out, or would you like me to? 
Would you like me to come with you to hunt for an apartment?

Fast forward to today. M2 routinely says and shows that she is: IN LOVE with me. 

If I tell her something is 'important to me', she stops what she is doing, gives me her undivided attention and then works towards making whatever it is - resolve in a manner I am happy with. 






cbnero said:


> It's easy to say I'm in the blunt category.
> But I am not about winning. I'm 100% pro marriage. There are no winners in divorce, only losers. My focus is the kid (s) and the mental stability of the parents.
> 
> There are lots of ways to make a point, the insult is one of them. Is it effective? Not always but sometimes.
> 
> In this case I feel the simple facts are being tip toed around and the reality of grids situation has been largely ignored. A good mix of alpha/beta/patient/easy going advice is helpful since every case is unique.
> 
> I have stated and will state again: jld is not giving bad advice, just bad advice for this situation. Mrs grid is irriational and in love with another man, who is still in the picture.
> 
> My original posts advocated strong boundaries without filing for divorce. To give her a look at reality without severely separating the two of them.
> 
> That doesn't mean I'm always right, assuredly I'm not, but experience is a good indicator of future results. Many of us saw this point coming a long ways out. And many of us wish we had the guidance from experienced people when we were at grids stage vs coming to TAM too late to make a difference. That's why I am vocal about unexperienced people advising a hurting desperate person. Jld keeps pushing grid to realize his own faults and how he was wrong. Maybe jld should realize she is grossly wrong as well.


----------



## farsidejunky

MEM11363 said:


> Cbnero,
> 
> I never considered the fellow M2 fell in love with a legitimate competitor.
> 
> I'm aware that I was lucky - that it didn't go physical. I was definitely in denial. That said, when the dust settled and he was 6 months in the rear view mirror, M2 confessed that the 3-4 incidents we had where she openly talked about moving out and/or divorce were driven by the fact she WAS in love with the OM.
> 
> And then she volunteered the following, which she then repeated a few times over the following year.
> 
> BY FAR THE MOST ATTRACTIVE THING YOU DID DURING THAT TIME WAS, YOU SHOWED ABSOLUTELY NO FEAR OF THE OM. YOU WERE ALWAYS TOTALLY CERTAIN YOU WOULD "WIN".
> 
> In truth that was as much cluelessness as confidence. It is also true that if M2 had said that she wanted a trial separation and was hoping that he and she could live together and see what happened...
> 
> My response would have been to say - Ok
> 
> And even though I didn't know WHY at the time, it is true that each time (except once - where she discussed moving out with our daughter prior to speaking with me) M2 flipped out and discussed moving out my response pattern was the same.
> 
> I was sad, but not fearful. So I wasn't angry. Sad for me, sadder for her. She seemed unhappy. So, if I had to characterize my affect it was: empathetic
> 
> And the mechanics of that response were - that I was - helpful.
> 
> For instance: Do you want to move out, or would you like me to?
> Would you like me to come with you to hunt for an apartment?
> 
> Fast forward to today. M2 routinely says and shows that she is: IN LOVE with me.
> 
> If I tell her something is 'important to me', she stops what she is doing, gives me her undivided attention and then works towards making whatever it is - resolve in a manner I am happy with.


Mem:

I think showing Grid that he can win, despite her choosing to leave or to stay, is the idea; outcome independence. 

I don't think the posters who are advocating to move the divorce forward are invested in a zero sum result. They are invested in seeing Grid be individually healthy. Or, I should speak for myself, and say that is why I think Grid should push the divorce forward while he continues to clean up his side of the street. 

If she wants it to stop, she will say so. But I think Grid's wife believes she wants to control, but now that she finds herself in control, she is a little lost. I believe that Grid taking control will be a demonstration of his value.

I see it as Grid needing to improve himself, while communicating to his WW that while he does not want to divorce, he will not remain in a marriage with a woman who does not love him. I believe that once she feels she is being left behind, it will change her stance dramatically.


----------



## bfree

Mem, do you honestly believe that the reason your wife "chose" you is because you were "helpful?" Might it have been because, clueless or not you didn't chase her, you didn't beg her, you demonstrated that you'd be okay with or without her? I venture to say that it was less your actions that "won the day" but it was more your independent strength. And isn't that what most of us, jld included, are advocating for grid to do? Whether the actions taken lead to divorce, separation, reconciliation...the means is more important than the end. Jld is right, Grid needs to lead. He needs to lead his wife if she eventually divests herself from her paramour. But more important he needs to lead himself. He needs to choose a direction and start following it. If his wife decides to join him on his path and he decides to let her tag along then a successful reconciliation might be in the offing. He cannot control his wife any more than he can control you or I. But he can turn away from her and become the best man he can be. I note that grid is turning to God and His holy word for guidance. That is a path that I chose and I am a much better man because of it. I think we've all said what needs to be said. I'm going to turn to prayer in hopes that grid and his wife might both find peace.


----------



## cbnero

MEM11363 said:


> Cbnero,
> 
> I never considered the fellow M2 fell in love with a legitimate competitor.
> 
> I'm aware that I was lucky - that it didn't go physical. I was definitely in denial. That said, when the dust settled and he was 6 months in the rear view mirror, M2 confessed that the 3-4 incidents we had where she openly talked about moving out and/or divorce were driven by the fact she WAS in love with the OM.
> 
> And then she volunteered the following, which she then repeated a few times over the following year.
> 
> BY FAR THE MOST ATTRACTIVE THING YOU DID DURING THAT TIME WAS, YOU SHOWED ABSOLUTELY NO FEAR OF THE OM. YOU WERE ALWAYS TOTALLY CERTAIN YOU WOULD "WIN".
> 
> In truth that was as much cluelessness as confidence. It is also true that if M2 had said that she wanted a trial separation and was hoping that he and she could live together and see what happened...
> 
> My response would have been to say - Ok
> 
> And even though I didn't know WHY at the time, it is true that each time (except once - where she discussed moving out with our daughter prior to speaking with me) M2 flipped out and discussed moving out my response pattern was the same.
> 
> I was sad, but not fearful. So I wasn't angry. Sad for me, sadder for her. She seemed unhappy. So, if I had to characterize my affect it was: empathetic
> 
> And the mechanics of that response were - that I was - helpful.
> 
> For instance: Do you want to move out, or would you like me to?
> Would you like me to come with you to hunt for an apartment?
> 
> Fast forward to today. M2 routinely says and shows that she is: IN LOVE with me.
> 
> If I tell her something is 'important to me', she stops what she is doing, gives me her undivided attention and then works towards making whatever it is - resolve in a manner I am happy with.


I think that's fantastic, I am a big believer in 2nd chances. Everyone is human and can screw up in the worst possible ways. It sounds like M2 found her way back. Most of us are not so lucky and the damage done *after the affair* and leading up to the divorce that is the worst part to reconcile.

I think there are obvious cases of narcissism, blame shifting, gas lighting, etc... that some people of very low character will display under stress. To some extent it could happen to both people during a divorce. When the dust settles people of integrity and character will admit and atone for it and feel remorse and empathy. Others will not.

My therapist at the time had me on the jld plan for a year. Categorically the strategy was "you can't keep kicking a dog if it's constantly nice to you." The problem was all the hate and anger my ex felt for herself was being projected and blameshifted onto me. And I happily just accepted 100% of all of it. *That is an extremely terrible place to be.* Hence, having experienced it and realizing how wrong that is to do to another person, red flags go up when I see grid going down the same road.


----------



## MEM2020

Yes 

He should proceed with the divorce. She filed yes? 

I know this might seem like some clever move - but it wasn't an act of cleverness when I did it. Just the truth. 

I absolutely believed that M2 had a right to be happy. To choose to pursue her happiness by freeing herself from the marriage. 

That said - I believe that blanket surveillance conveys the opposite of outcome independence. 

If it was me I would openly shut down all surveillance and say: You get to choose how transparent you want to be. That said, I need you to look me in the eye and promise you won't lie to me. 
If you cant promise that - I need to know. 

Worst case scenario she promises not to lie, and then continues lying to him. If that happens he will find out soon enough. And if she does that, it doesn't make him a sucker, just shows her to be a liar. And then maybe her preferences cease to matter. 








farsidejunky said:


> Mem:
> 
> I think showing Grid that he can win, despite her choosing to leave or to stay, is the idea; outcome independence.
> 
> I don't think the posters who are advocating to move the divorce forward are invested in a zero sum result. They are invested in seeing Grid be individually healthy. Or, I should speak for myself, and say that is why I think Grid should push the divorce forward while he continues to clean up his side of the street.
> 
> If she wants it to stop, she will say so. But I think Grid's wife believes she wants to control, but now that she finds herself in control, she is a little lost. I believe that Grid taking control will be a demonstration of his value.
> 
> I see it as Grid needing to improve himself, while communicating to his WW that while he does not want to divorce, he will not remain in a marriage with a woman who does not love him. I believe that once she feels she is being left behind, it will change her stance dramatically.


----------



## turnera

> If you can't promise that - I need to know.


Uh, the woman is a CHEATER. She screwed another man. So you then say 'TELL me if you're going to lie to me.' Really?

And I don't think any of us has suggested any level of surveillance to him.


----------



## LongWalk

Grid,

You've come along way. When you say that she doesn't love you, that reflects an unpleasant reality. However, keep in mind she is still strung out on the love drug. She is angry that you took it away. She is also confused because societal disapproval for cheating in general and OM in particular sucks. She is in school and the boy she is crazy about has been expelled for loving her and you are the jerk whom she told to get lost but doesn't get it.

Often on TAM people impute things about OM that are morally judgmental. OM is evil because he chases married women or OM is player who is toying with WW, just one of his conquests. In the case of your wife's OM it is quite certain that he is in love with her. The Spotify play list courting call is just a bird trying to sing his song louder, a manta ray smashing the sea harder, etc. OM's devotion to her is real because he is in pain for her sake and she knows his thing for her is not burning out. This can last for weeks or months. If you go back and look at cell phone records at some point you will pick up OM's number. Once they were into each other they must have at least messaged. He has been erasing you from her liminal mind. Here is psycho babble from Wikipedia:



> preliminal rites (or rites of separation): This stage involves a metaphorical “death”, as the initiate is forced to leave something behind by breaking with previous practices and routines.[10]
> liminal rites (or transition rites): This involves “the creation of a tabula rasa, through the removal of previously taken-for-granted forms and limits”.[11] Two characteristics are essential to these rites. First, the rite “must follow a strictly prescribed sequence, where everybody knows what to do and how”.[12]
> 
> Second, everything must be done “under the authority of a master of ceremonies”.[13] The destructive nature of this rite allows for considerable changes to be made to the identity of the initiand. This middle stage (when the transition takes place) “implies an actual passing through the threshold that marks the boundary between two phases, and the term ‘liminality’ was introduced in order to characterize this passage.”[14]
> 
> postliminal rites (or rites of incorporation): During this stage, the initiand is re-incorporated into society with a new identity, as a “new” being.


If this scheme is applied to couple, part one is courtship, part two is marriage by a priest, justice of the peace and part two is the married state.

Divorce and connection to a new partner follows a similar process. No fault divorce, now more or less universal in Europe and the US, provides a antitoxin to someone poisoned and suffocating in a loveless marriage. Romantic passion is held in very high esteem by US modern culture. Jld's choice in music – sorry jld, guys don't like this kind of crooner – glorifies this ideal for women. 

In short your wife is wacked out on the love drug. If she gets divorced, then she can re-enter society with a new status.

As of now you can tell that fighting this is rather pointless. Deep down your wife and you have history of not being able to get enough of each other and you have two kids. That has staying power in longer race. But what is going to happen is uncertain when marriage breaks up. From this chart you can see many alternatives. 










Source

jld only sees a couple of scenarios. But maybe OM will commit suicide or join the French Foreign Legion. Your wife may divorce you and joint the cult of CrossFit. If either of you win the Powerball lottery, divorce is certainty.

Given that you are now cognizant that there is a certain amount of crap shoot in all of this, you have been able to let go. That is the healthiest. Trying restore your marriage is impossible. It is gone. Whatever is coming will be different.

Do you have any pets?

Take joy in your children. A good relationship with them will survive this. My eldest daughter is in the first year of law school. The youngest is in the last year of high school. Time flies.


----------



## MEM2020

T,
I'm confused. I thought Grid described having her under 7x24 surveillance. 

You can't actually work on rebuilding the marriage - without rebuilding trust. And trust by definition is about vulnerability. 

He can always ask her the question. 

Grid: Is my keeping tabs on you helping you stay focused on us, helping you avoid the OM? I'll keep doing it IF YOU WANT ME TO. Otherwise - I'm going to make the leap of faith that you will do what is right. And 'right' means make a true choice. Either focus on us/me. Or openly choose him. The only thing I am not ok with is for you to cake eat. 





turnera said:


> Uh, the woman is a CHEATER. She screwed another man. So you then say 'TELL me if you're going to lie to me.' Really?
> 
> And I don't think any of us has suggested any level of surveillance to him.


----------



## MEM2020

Cbnero,

Sorry it played out like that. Some folks are not salvageable....
Sad your wife was one of them...




cbnero said:


> I think that's fantastic, I am a big believer in 2nd chances. Everyone is human and can screw up in the worst possible ways. It sounds like M2 found her way back. Most of us are not so lucky and the damage done *after the affair* and leading up to the divorce that is the worst part to reconcile.
> 
> I think there are obvious cases of narcissism, blame shifting, gas lighting, etc... that some people of very low character will display under stress. To some extent it could happen to both people during a divorce. When the dust settles people of integrity and character will admit and atone for it and feel remorse and empathy. Others will not.
> 
> My therapist at the time had me on the jld plan for a year. Categorically the strategy was "you can't keep kicking a dog if it's constantly nice to you." The problem was all the hate and anger my ex felt for herself was being projected and blameshifted onto me. And I happily just accepted 100% of all of it. *That is an extremely terrible place to be.* Hence, having experienced it and realizing how wrong that is to do to another person, red flags go up when I see grid going down the same road.


----------



## Thundarr

farsidejunky said:


> Mem:
> 
> I think showing Grid that he can win, despite her choosing to leave or to stay, is the idea; outcome independence.
> 
> I don't think the posters who are advocating to move the divorce forward are invested in a zero sum result. They are invested in seeing Grid be individually healthy. Or, I should speak for myself, and say that is why I think Grid should push the divorce forward while he continues to clean up his side of the street.
> 
> If she wants it to stop, she will say so. But I think Grid's wife believes she wants to control, but now that she finds herself in control, she is a little lost. I believe that Grid taking control will be a demonstration of his value.
> 
> I see it as Grid needing to improve himself, while communicating to his WW that while he does not want to divorce, he will not remain in a marriage with a woman who does not love him. I believe that once she feels she is being left behind, it will change her stance dramatically.


I second farsidejunky's assertions. If Grid wants respect from those around him (including his wife and himself) then he's got to react in respectable ways to being treated like crap. In ways that are considered principled and redeemable when his actions are evaluated. He really needs to defend his own value. There are no short cuts to living by principle and there's no substitute.


----------



## truster

gridcom said:


> Again, how jld writes accurately expresses my wife's feelings (better than my wife does, to be honest) And it is true that I should focus my energy completely on things in my control and it's damn hard.


If your wife isn't expressing these feelings, how do you know she has them exactly as jld says? This isn't a rhetorical question -- I want you to think about the answer before continuing.

...

...

Did you come up with "I guess I don't know how she feels?" It seems like the only reasonable answer. So if you don't know, why are you continuing to give her the benefit of the doubt? I know why -- because we all did it at one point, because it's hard to reconcile that the new wife is not the old wife, so we stick with the idea of the old wife. Because it's what we wanted to be true. And it's what you want to be true.


----------



## truster

Speaking of believing what you want to be true -- you have said that your wife and the OM are not still in the relationship. You've refused to confirm this, however. Interestingly enough, I think the only thing every poster in this thread agrees on so far is that she is still in this relationship. On this point, I don't think you have a friendly voice telling you what to hear.. so I advise you to focus on this.

The only 'evidence' you have that she has ended things is her word -- the word of a woman who has lied, and lied, and lied and filed for divorce and lied. You've said that if she was still in it, you'd change your mind. You're the only person at this point thinking she isn't still in it. Why not take the extra step, confirm it, and settle your mind?


----------



## LongWalk

re: surveillance

Grid tracks her on her phone. When I or others suggests a VAR in her car, he did not feel comfortable. 
Possibly he has taken other steps but does not mention them here because his wife knows about TAM.

In fact, if she goes online she may be reading LoveShack and learning how to hide the affair.

I suggested Grid check her undies. 

But really, as someone else suggested he should perhaps just cease surveillance because it is bad for his mental health. Let her do whatever. It will come out in the wash eventually.

The question is how to interpret their current state. Are they separated but living together?


----------



## jld

Hi, grid. I was really pleased to see post #1276. I can definitely believe that she wants to reconcile, and I think she is wise to insist it be done in a "loving and legitimate way."

I would go to her now and apologize for threatening her last Friday. Tell her that with all you two have been through the last few months, that was definitely not the right thing to do, and you regret it.

Tell her you want to reconcile, too, and that you are committed to doing it in a loving and legit way. 

Next, tell her that you don't think either of you needs a lawyer at this point, and you would like to set the divorce idea aside and just work on the marriage. If OM comes up, you just tell her you are convinced that she will soon no longer feel a need or interest in him. You are going to be making your best efforts along that path.

Tell her you know you have hurt her, and you would like to open up a conversation on that. You are not going to defend yourself, nor explain yourself, but just listen and seek to understand her and show her you care about how you hurt her.

This is not the time to bring up your hurts. This is a time for listening to hers.

When you are done, I would advise you to take her hand and ask her if it would be okay for you to pray with her. Thank God for your wife, thank him for helping you two consider reconciliation, and ask his guidance as you move forward. 

Tell her you are open to hearing any more hurts at any time. And be open to it. And humble and listening when you do.

There is a lot to work with here, grid. You really just need to bring humility. She does not want this divorce. But she does need your empathy and kindness. It has to start with that.

Taking leadership in the financial area is good. You can ask your wife to join you in deciding how to reduce spending and start paying down debt. Like MEM said, tackle it as a team.

I want you to be kind to her, grid. I don't want you to make demands. I want to see you get a strong grip on your anger. I don't want to see these fine efforts marred by anger or defensiveness.

She can be moved to begin trusting you again by your showing her kindness and empathy. Please make the most of this opportunity.


----------



## Evinrude58

I am just in shock after reading this. It's ludicrous. She really wants to reconcile? Why? She doesn't love him, and she has filed for divorce! She's told him lots of things..... Like only having sex with other man once.... Laughable.

He needs to tell her he wants to build trust with her? After she has cheated? I'll bet she and other man will laugh their arses off at this. She will immediately be repulsed by grid's feminine groveling if he utters a word of this. All the garbage she's spouted to him is simply to make herself feel like she's not the lowlife cheater she really is and should not be held accountable as such. 
You are reinforcing grid's already self-deprecating attitude, stripping him of dignity, and sending her the other direction with the OK. 

He's doing ok. He's got a lawyer, he's understanding that she doesn't love him, and starting to accept that his marriage is over. It is. She loves another man and only needs or wants Grid's security. This thing you're telling him would be spot-on if she wasn't in love with someone else, and still in love with grid. 

He can't grovel and beg at her feet. If he pressures her for reconciliation in any way it will send her for the hills. Telling her he wants to reconcile is pressuring her to want to, also. The only leverage he has to keep her is that she does value the security he provides, and knows he is a trustworthy guy. That's my take, anyway. 
I hope he doesn't take your advice. It's exactly what he wants to do. And the exact opposite of what he needs to do for himself. He needs to detach and get back to being himsel, so she can see that he's a man that can handle himself and not some baby who can't handle life without her. She would be attracted to two things right now--- grid being an awesome dad, and grid detaching and going on with his life with or without his wife aboard.
What can one possibly do but divorce a woman who no longer loves him, and isn't remorseful for cheating?


----------



## Evinrude58

I wanted to add that I think he will have to divorce her to ever have what he wants back again-- a wife who loves him and respects him, and one he may have some semblance of trust with. He probably won't want her by the time the divorce is over, but might have a real chance at love again with her if he keeps his dignity and goes on with life. She'll never fall back in love with a doormat.


----------



## manfromlamancha

Gridcom, can you not see that she wants to "reconcile" simply means the following:

I cannot see a viable future with the POSOM.

I have had my fun and may or may not continue to do so.

I want to "find my way back to the centre in a legit and loving way" which means I want to come back on my terms, no bull$h!t from you about my cheating, and with you completely whipped into understanding that this is all your fault any way. And this until I find the next branch to swing on to before leaving you or unless you allow me to have my occasional flings every now and then with some young strange.

I have got to say this (and I normally don't shoot down another post from JLD - sorry JLD) - please, please, please do not do what JLD advised in her last post. Your wife is not hurting from something that you have done or not done - she is hurting because she now realises that she has done something wrong, and while she enjoyed it, it cannot continue and she has to now somehow come back to you and minimise the damage done.

If you are not careful you will screw up any chance of a REAL RECONCILIATION permanently!!! She has to be on her knees and genuinely wanting you and genuinely remorseful. She will only do this if she sees you standing tall above all this. It ain't about winning or losing but more about becoming stronger and better as a man/person and a husband.

Stand your ground, insist on your demands and know this - the hurt will NEVER go away completely (reconciliation is tough!).


----------



## gridcom

manfromlamancha said:


> I want to "find my way back to the centre in a legit and loving way" which means I want to come back on my terms, no bull$h!t from you about my cheating, and with you completely whipped into understanding that this is all your fault any way. And this until I find the next branch to swing on to before leaving you or unless you allow me to have my occasional flings every now and then with some young strange.


This rings true currently


----------



## MEM2020

She wants to discuss the affair about as much as you want to address the budget.




gridcom said:


> This rings true currently


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

gridcom said:


> Based on the fact we are 85 pages in, I'd estimate it would take about 8 hours of speed reading to get through this entire thing at $450 per hour. Plus, he really shouldnt care, should he? It's law. I am in NY state. Infidelity means nothing in this state, literally. I was told that judges hate it even being listed because it's meaningless.


So, the answer is no. I never said ANYTHING about telling your lawyer about proving infidelity or you being dumb. It has NOTHING to do with this at all. Yes, he may care, but not because of what you think. Yes, it is the law and it is not your friend.


----------



## Chaparral

LongWalk said:


> re: surveillance
> 
> Grid tracks her on her phone. When I or others suggests a VAR in her car, he did not feel comfortable.
> Possibly he has taken other steps but does not mention them here because his wife knows about TAM.
> 
> In fact, if she goes online she may be reading LoveShack and learning how to hide the affair.
> 
> I suggested Grid check her undies.
> 
> But really, as someone else suggested he should perhaps just cease surveillance because it is bad for his mental health. Let her do whatever. It will come out in the wash eventually.
> 
> The question is how to interpret their current state. Are they separated but living together?


When googling infidelity statistics you find only twenty percent of the people that commit infidelity are caught, how does someone that doesn't investigate when there are redflag flying know when their cheating spouse quits.

No one that's read many threads here believes her affair is over. Seeing each other at work, pining over each others playlist, and number one redflag of a cheater, cutting him off sexually indicate the affair is full bore.

I'm fu*king another man. You may no longer touch me. If one person can find a thread here where their spouse cut them off during reconciliation and the affair wasn't continuing I will eat my hat.

Something else that's been avoided is how grid hasn't actually explained how he was such a bad husband. This is the biggest myth in this forum. Then they read MMSLP and NO MORE MISTER NICE GUY and find they've been gaslighted. Grid has read much but not the two most important things.

Instead he's been chasing his tail from the wishful thinking lobby.


----------



## poida

Gridcom,
I'm nearly 2 years out and I can tell you that you will become a much happier and fulfilled person without your scumbucket wife in your life. 
I respect myself more than I ever have and that would not be the case if I let the EXW back. 
D and stay D. You'll find someone much better.


----------



## LongWalk

As BP suggested there many alternative outcomes. There are many things that you don't know in the past, present and future. You don't know when the affair went physical or indeed if is still ongoing. And you do not know if it will continue in the future. Divorce could be smooth or acrimonious. Post D you might both be happy or one happy and one sad or both sad. Post D you might be a continued state of hostility or indifference or friendship. Jld really only considers certain outcomes likely.

How can you know what to do if you don't know whether the affair is on going?

Would you like to know more about the affair? Did your WW, for example, lie about the number of times she and OM had sex?

Road Scholar's wife cut him off sexually 6 months post Dday. He discovered that she was still in contact with OM, longing to meet up with him for a vodka ****tail. At that moment Road Scholar was mighty angry. He did not yell at his wife. But in his eyes she saw he was serious about divorce. She snapped out of the love fog at once. They began to have sex. He worried that the sex was not as good as the affair sex but over time they were able to repair their marriage. Was it perfect reconciliation? No. For one thing, Road Scholar came back and heard posters tell him he was deluding himself. Proof of this was the lack of a timeline. The fact remains he chose to reconcile when it was offered. His wife was remorseful, but she did continue to rug sweep.

Did you ever get the cell phone records?


----------



## Keepin-my-head-up

jld said:


> Hi, grid. I was really pleased to see post #1276. I can definitely believe that she wants to reconcile, and I think she is wise to insist it be done in a "loving and legitimate way."
> 
> I would go to her now and apologize for threatening her last Friday. Tell her that with all you two have been through the last few months, that was definitely not the right thing to do, and you regret it.
> 
> Tell her you want to reconcile, too, and that you are committed to doing it in a loving and legit way.
> 
> Next, tell her that you don't think either of you needs a lawyer at this point, and you would like to set the divorce idea aside and just work on the marriage. If OM comes up, you just tell her you are convinced that she will soon no longer feel a need or interest in him. You are going to be making your best efforts along that path.
> 
> Tell her you know you have hurt her, and you would like to open up a conversation on that. You are not going to defend yourself, nor explain yourself, but just listen and seek to understand her and show her you care about how you hurt her.
> 
> This is not the time to bring up your hurts. This is a time for listening to hers.
> 
> When you are done, I would advise you to take her hand and ask her if it would be okay for you to pray with her. Thank God for your wife, thank him for helping you two consider reconciliation, and ask his guidance as you move forward.
> 
> Tell her you are open to hearing any more hurts at any time. And be open to it. And humble and listening when you do.
> 
> There is a lot to work with here, grid. You really just need to bring humility. She does not want this divorce. But she does need your empathy and kindness. It has to start with that.
> 
> Taking leadership in the financial area is good. You can ask your wife to join you in deciding how to reduce spending and start paying down debt. Like MEM said, tackle it as a team.
> 
> I want you to be kind to her, grid. I don't want you to make demands. I want to see you get a strong grip on your anger. I don't want to see these fine efforts marred by anger or defensiveness.
> 
> She can be moved to begin trusting you again by your showing her kindness and empathy. Please make the most of this opportunity.


Grid,
Reconciliation can be done at any time.
She may even truly want to reconcile because she has fallen in love with you all over again.
I don't know, you don't know and anyone who posts here doesn't know.
We say what we believe she means and what we believe will work by past experience and gut intuition.

What you do know is that she has filed.
That is fact.
That is concern number one.

You know why?
That simple filing sets in motion what happens with your kids, home, finances, where you can live, etc...
(yeah, I know it has been said already but that fact seems to have been lost)
That has to be dealt with.
If you ask her to put the divorce aside, get proof! 
Does she have a lawyer?
Have your lawyer talk with her lawyer or if you guys don't have one then get something concrete be it in mediation and notarized that the filing will be rescinded and no one take further action til such and such a time or what have you

I say that so you are not blindsided, and with it assuredly out of the way, you can work on whatever it is the BOTH of you choose with a healthy minds.

Now people are saying this thread has 2 sides.
Pro divorce and pro recommitment.
As for me?
That is your call.

What I hope you do is take all legal matters seriously.
A filing is a legal matter.

I am not pro or con reconciliation.
I only want you to not lose focus in all the mystery of what us posters believe your wife may or may not mean.

The filingriority number one. 
That involves everything.
The filing, if it plays out all the way will end up with you divorced regardless of what you want.

And man, I know this sucks and you are in a numb place fight now but trust me.
It will get worse... and than it will get better.
True for both options I think


----------



## Chuck71

Evinrude58 said:


> I am just in shock after reading this. It's ludicrous. She really wants to reconcile? Why? She doesn't love him, and she has filed for divorce! She's told him lots of things..... Like only having sex with other man once.... Laughable.
> 
> He needs to tell her he wants to build trust with her? After she has cheated? I'll bet she and other man will laugh their arses off at this. She will immediately be repulsed by grid's feminine groveling if he utters a word of this.


To extend Evinrude's comment, bet the farm they enjoy a cigarette after sex, laugh and make 

jokes about you Grid. When they meet for coffee, lunch, after work..... I can virtually promise you

she is and has paid for HIS with YOUR money. "Nooooo my W wouldn't do that...." Check receipts... 

I can't recall what thread this was on, just know CWI, a WW told her POSOM after swallowing, she was

not going to brush her teeth until after she gave her H a long wet kiss. I hope this doesn't happen to you Grid


----------



## Chuck71

cbnero said:


> I think that's fantastic, I am a big believer in 2nd chances. Everyone is human and can screw up in the worst possible ways. It sounds like M2 found her way back. Most of us are not so lucky and the damage done *after the affair* and leading up to the divorce that is the worst part to reconcile.
> 
> I think there are obvious cases of narcissism, blame shifting, gas lighting, etc... that some people of very low character will display under stress. To some extent it could happen to both people during a divorce. When the dust settles people of integrity and character will admit and atone for it and feel remorse and empathy. Others will not.
> 
> My therapist at the time had me on the jld plan for a year. Categorically the strategy was "you can't keep kicking a dog if it's constantly nice to you." The problem was all the hate and anger my ex felt for herself was being projected and blameshifted onto me. And I happily just accepted 100% of all of it. *That is an extremely terrible place to be.* Hence, having experienced it and realizing how wrong that is to do to another person, red flags go up when I see grid going down the same road.


I have to agree with Nero on this. At one time my then best female friend / IC tried to get me to do this. To say I was confused, was an understatement. "Maybe WC's only capable of talking to you at certain levels while in this situation." -Sorry but if her best idea of wanting to talk is to bring home a freaking pizza, then out story has already been written-

All I heard was "it's up to you," not one word about MC and working on herself. I was lucky.... when IC told me of this, I had already set in place a situation where she would be forced to show her hand. But what if I had done like Nero...... that is a dark place I refused to go. 

He did wrong, she did wrong
He works on himself, she works on herself
He sets boundaries, she sets boundaries
Took long time to fall from paradise, will take long to re-capture paradise 

It ain't rocket science.... but if you ask the WS....


----------



## LongWalk

Chuck71 said:


> To extend Evinrude's comment, bet the farm they enjoy a cigarette after sex, laugh and make
> 
> jokes about you Grid. When they meet for coffee, lunch, after work..... I can virtually promise you
> 
> she is and has paid for HIS with YOUR money. "Nooooo my W wouldn't do that...." Check receipts...
> 
> I can't recall what thread this was on, just know CWI, a WW told her POSOM after swallowing, she was
> 
> not going to brush her teeth until after she gave her H a long wet kiss. I hope this doesn't happen to you Grid


She won't kiss him so that can't happen, but it might of and he doesn't know.

The pattern of their messaging and calling will reveal a great deal.

The phone records will show them texting at particular times. You can even go and look on Facebook timelines to see what was going on on those days.


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## ThreeStrikes

gridcom said:


> Again, how jld writes accurately expresses my wife's feelings (better than my wife does, to be honest)


Have you wondered why you feel this way? Keep in mind that jld was/is not a cheater. 

Please explain this thought process.


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## TeddieG

Chaparral said:


> This is why JLD's advice is so destructive.
> 
> The hardest thing to do in this section is to get the BS to see reality. Healing and/or reconciliation doesn't start until the cheater takes credit for the affair. Had grid taken the advice of the veterans here the situation for him would have been much better. Instead of ripping off the band aid all that has been accomplished is letting his wife control her ongoing affair and grid.
> 
> Its excruciating to watch these threads when JLD starts serving up rainbows and unicorns. This doesn't mean JLD is anything other than a great person trying to help. The road to hell however, is paved with good intentions.
> 
> That grid thinks she somehow is in the mind of his wife is even harmful. What his wife is actually doing is feeding him a line of bull sh!t.
> 
> Reconciliation happens when the betrayed spouse jumps on the affair with both both feet and the wayward spouse sees they are losing their family............and cares. Stringing it out always fails.
> 
> Grid, ask your wife if now that she's filed for divorce, you are now free to date. I know you won't but that's what a strong man will do.
> 
> Anger is not strength, anger is weakness when uncontrolled. Resolve in the face of adversity is strength and that's what your lacking. At this point, you should be doing the 180, preparing to break up the family and letting her come to you to save it. You cant, your weak, your wife sees it and that's why she's gone.


I wish I had found TAM 7 years ago, 5 years, 3 years ago . . . I took JLD's way and decided to try to change and let my h see the change. I found the Jim Conway version of how to handle MLC, which is basically to save the opportunity to reconcile at all costs by NOT exposing, by pretending nothing is happening, to assume not the responsibility for the cheating of my spouse but almost everything else (lose weight, get back to the size you were when you met, dress 20 years younger, find something to do to make yourself more interesting) . . . I was already in a PhD program, and my h used to say how he missed our conversations because the OW was as vacuous as a vacuum cleaner hose . . . 

But I tried to nice him into reconciliation and all that did was give him SEVEN YEARS to continue to build the relationship with his OW and more importantly, her kid, who was 3 when their affair started (h is a father of 5 and they're all grown now). She was a recipe in Replay, a single mom with the father of the child on the wings and uninvolved, h was a rescuer who wanted to save this alcoholic from herself . . . 7 years later he's back in Replay. Back in the affair. 

And I sat back and participated in letting it happen because I was patient and MLC is supposedly different from your garden-variety cheating, and bull****. 

He's proposed to her now before we're even divorced, because she demanded that he choose, and that he demonstrate a commitment to her. Sure, they'll fall apart since HE's not into commitment at all, but she doesn't know that. Part of why she put the pressure on so hard was because she wanted to win, without considering the questionable nature of the prize. She managed to end up with all the control because he was weak, I stood by to let him figure himself out and sort out what he wanted, doing my own thing, working on me, setting boundaries, and sure, I became more attractive to him. But he continually vacillated between coming home to me (which I thought he had done five years ago but he never did the work to get past the FOO issues of his own, or his bi polar depression, and his physical and mental health issues, or what caused them, nor did he work that hard at getting over his affair) where he could escape her insanity and returning to her for the drama when his depression set in. Me losing 20 pounds did NOTHING for his mental health situation. All OW had to do was bend her crooked little finger ON THE DAY WE BURIED MY MOTHER and say come hither, fool, and that was it. 

Yes, do the 180. Yes, do NOT have conversations with your spouse about the relationship until s/he is ready or until you're ready to pull the plug. BUT do not do ANYthing with the intent of trying to "save" the reconciliation. Save yourself first. At the time I thought I was making a decision that would leave me with the fewest regrets. I still don't have any regrets, because none of this was within my control, I didn't cause it, and I couldn't cure it and I acted with the best information I had or was able to obtain, with the knowledge available to me at the time. It was HIS issue. And I seriously doubt the outcome would have been different. But if he stopped the affair and worked on himself, he might have come to me asking for reconciliation. I seriously doubt now, with the benefit of hindsight, that he would have, but he sure as hell won't now. But I will concede there are other ways, maybe better ways, and whatever stance people take, the approaches they adopt require courage. But some stances require more courage than others. Blaming yourself and trying to fix yourself and assuming responsibility to get your spouse back because your spouse cheated is NOT courageous and it is NOT healthy.


----------



## LongWalk

This last post by TeddieG is incisive. 



> But I will concede there are other ways, maybe better ways, and whatever stance people take, the approaches they adopt require courage. But some stances require more courage than others. Blaming yourself and trying to fix yourself and assuming responsibility to get your spouse back because your spouse cheated is NOT courageous and it is NOT healthy.


As she points out, taking responsibility for the cheating is wrong. If a BS like Gridcom bows his head and says that he should shoulder some of the blame for the affair, the wayward may even feel empowered to cheat more.

After all they can even rationalize another round of adulterous afternoon delight, reasoning that the betrayed spouse still needs to pay even more for their past failures. The BS saying sorry is just a blank check to indulge the cheater's emotional black hole. And while jld's method might sometimes work, it could also send the wayward from being a first timer to becoming a serial cheater. After all if consequences for cheating were not too bad and it felt good, why not repeat it with a new lover?


----------



## turnera

Basic psychology. With normal people.


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## TeddieG

Yes, and it is also basic relationship good sense. You choose a partner for a host of reasons, but one of them for me has always been someone who would hold me accountable to be my best self, and return the favor. I do my h no favors be allowing him to assume he gets a pass from being the most moral and ethical person he can by when it comes to cheating. I want someone who will call me out if I'm not at my best when interacting with another human being. The older I get the more I see that the value of life is treating other people with respect without being walked all over. Growing up, I watched my dad in particular allow himself to be walked all over by lots of people and to do things that caused him grief and stress. Without realizing it, I was skeptical of the value of relationships because I always saw them as something where I would get hosed with no appreciation or reciprocity. My h was the exception; I trusted him and believed in him and gave him my heart. He broke it. HE broke it. And I didn't give it to him lightly; he spent years demonstrating his trustworthiness and commitment. Ironically when I met my h, my previous relationship was one with a guy who could not commit; he was always afraid to commit to a relationship and always feared that something better would come down the pike and he'd be stuck. He was spoiled and always got what he wanted, and he said his Ms. Right would be okay with him having female friends. I dated him less than six months, spent another six months working out what the hell that was about, and then came h. And then came h's MLC and mental health meltdown after some physical issues sent Peter Pan reeling. I wasted my time on this guy - not the first 11 years, but the last 7. 

Lesson learned.


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## ButtPunch

LongWalk said:


> She won't kiss him so that can't happen, but it might of and he doesn't know.
> 
> The pattern of their messaging and calling will reveal a great deal.
> 
> The phone records will show them texting at particular times. You can even go and look on Facebook timelines to see what was going on on those days.


Why check up on her? He knows she's cheated. He needs to 180 and go as dark as possible. 

Grid isn't in any form of reconciliation. Heck even in a false reconciliation the WW says the right things. Her actions are what give her away. Grids wife doesn't even care to give him fake lip service. 

IMO.....Grid's wife is probably still cheating and Grid needs to emotionally detach to the point where he says "OM can have her" "I don't need this BS"

All that snooping is just going to cause more pain and anxiety for Grid and keep him emotionally invested in this train wreck.


----------



## cbnero

ButtPunch said:


> Why check up on her? He knows she's cheated. He needs to 180 and go as dark as possible.
> 
> Grid isn't in any form of reconciliation. Heck even in a false reconciliation the WW says the right things. Her actions are what give her away. Grids wife doesn't even care to give him fake lip service.
> 
> IMO.....Grid's wife is probably still cheating and Grid needs to emotionally detach to the point where he says "OM can have her" "I don't need this BS"
> 
> All that snooping is just going to cause more pain and anxiety for Grid and keep him emotionally invested in this train wreck.


I totally agree. You can't say you're detaching if you're still snooping & monitoring. That's double speak.

She isn't his property and she is free to make her own decisions. Put it this way: Would you want her to confess because you bust her lying and confront/corner her? Or do you prefer her to come to her senses and make a moral decision to change her behavior and be honest - all on her own? It isn't your job to fix her and I know which one I would prefer. Especially if R is still a goal.

You'll need to decide for yourself.

#justletthemgo


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## gridcom

In answer to those who believe their affair is still active in the sense that they are communicating directly or seeing other. I HAVE TO shut that down. I have the phone records. We share AT&T plan so I can see every call in or out. They have spoken on the phone a total of 9 minutes. 3 total minutes leading up to D-Day and 6 minutes after, on one call after I called him and we spoke and he called her to tell her that he should back away. That was 10 weeks ago. No calls since. We have a house phone and I used to ignore it when it rang, but now I pick it up all the time and remember I work here and am here all day. 

They haven't exchanged a text since July 25. I've checked her phone (she's allowed me) a few times. Even if you delete texts, unless you delete the entire text thread, the person you tet or that has texted you still stays in sequence to the timeline of that last true test. In other words, if I text you today and you delete my text, I am still at the top of you text list. Yes, I actually took the time to figure this out because I wanted to know. No texts.

No 2nd phone. I've checked and checked again. I haven't recently because I don't believe anymore that she would get a second phone nor do I CARE!!!!!! At this point, honestly, I don't really care.

E-mails..... I havent checked in a while but I did check the night I "puked on the side of the house". I grabbed her phone that night and went through everything. Now, you can erase e-mails so "maybe" on e-mail. But the last e-mail I saw was from when we were on vacation and that was now 7 weeks ago. I also went through her phone for hidden apps, words with friends chats, etc. 

Lastly, regarding GPS on the phone, we've had that enabled for 5 years at least. The reason the iphone Location Services exists is not for people who dont trust each other. It exists for people who trust each other to know where the other is without having to call. I would often check it when my wife was out at her moms and I'd see how close she was to coming home so I could get my shoes on and help her bring the kids in. I would use it to see if she was at a bar with co-workers still or on her way home at the end of a night to decide if I wanted to wait up or go to bed. Until the affair, there was no reason to hide from each other. If she turned it off NOW, that would mean she suddenly has something to hide. I don't feel bad or guilty or controlling that it exists. It didn't appear when the affair started. It's been there for years. 

And to that end, she doesn't get a break at work where she can leave the building. They arent humping in a theatre full of patrons in a broom closet. I just don't see it. I have thoroughly accounted for her time. And I say that with complete confidence
If there is a guy here who's wife swallowed some other guys junk and then laughed with her affair partner that she wasnt going to brush her teeth until she kissed her BS on the mouth, I am sorry for you but your wife and my wife are miles MILES apart. 

To that end, if she wanted to turn it off now, I really wouldn't care because I AM TELLING YOU ALL I am not afraid of the marriage ending. Once we had that conversation where she said she could cheat again given the right circumstances, that was really the turning point. That was two weeks ago tomorrow. Every day, my mind is getting stronger in going with divorce. Where as at one point all I could think about was how to save my marriage, now all I can think about is how I can get out of this marriage clean and with some money in my pocket to live a fulfilling live post divorce.

Deep down I would rather be happily married to my wife, so for right now I think it's best that nobody make any definitive decisions about anything. We both can tell that our minds and hearts are changing daily. Nothing is settled

My point is......... isnt it possible that my wife has ended her affair and at the same time has not yet committed to the marriage? Why is it for some of you that if she hasnt re-committed to the marriage that the affair MUST still be going on? I believe her affair is "over" . "Over" defined as she hasnt had direct communication for a number of weeks. That can change tomorrow (literally), but it's been three weeks since they've even worked the same shift.

And again, that also doesnt mean that I know the whole story. I do believe there are other parts of this story that have been left out by my wife. But, I dont think any of those tidbits are from the last 10-12 weeks. If there is anything I am not aware of, it happened before or right after I found out about the whole thing. If I am a betting man, I;d say it's pretty likely there is a bombshell or two hidden in that closet, but with the way my mind is cranking right now, I honestly don't care. Maybe I will down the road, but a post divorce single life is looking appealing right now.


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## TeddieG

Absolutely it is possible that she has ended the affair and yet is not committed to the marriage. It would be nonsensical to think that it is either/or. A person in an affair needs time to outlive the addiction, grieve the highs it gave them, and close the door before moving forward. As the saying goes, end one relationship before you enter another. 

I am sympathetic to the folks who say your w may still be making contact simply because my h convinced me more than once we were reconciling, and they were all false. He was so successful, though, at getting real about it that the OW told him he had to make a decision, and when he proposed, then I assume she said, well you have to stop giving Teddie false hope. But notice that SHE'S making the decision for him. She's telling him what he needs to say and do. But that was the beginning of the turning point for me. The finality of the turning point was when she texted him and he resumed contact on the day we buried my mother. Cheating is a passive-aggressive way of saying, I'm pissed off (at my life, at what my mother did to me when I was twelve, but you're the one standing in front of me) and I'm going to hurt you bad. He was never more passive-aggressive than that day on my brother's back porch and my mother was barely in the ground. But OW had complete control and knew it. That's what he needed in his weakened state, and if it goes bad, he can blame her for manipulating him and blame me for abandoning and giving up on him, ever sitting in the victim chair. I was very happy to hear his clarity and hear him say more than once that he wanted to marry her, wanted a divorce, and wanted to move on with his life (including the second time at my mother's funeral, even after he broken up with OW and come home). I don't think it is what he REALLY wants, he was aping what the OW told him to say, but I also think he would have continued cake-eating (THAT'S what he really wants) until he died and died sitting in the goddamn victim chair. 

And it is wise of you to be cautious about a bombshell or two down the road. And I'm glad a post-divorce single life is looking appealing. Why shouldn't you have options? God knows your cheating wife has exercised plenty. 

Go slow. And absolutely, again from my experience, even if the affair is "over," for now, that can change tomorrow, that can change this afternoon. It did for me. One text on the day we buried my mother, even though my x told me he was angry and wished she would just leave him alone, for the rest of the afternoon he texted like his phone was attached to the end of his finger, until he got up that evening and called her. 

Hang in. You're getting smarter and wiser, and I'm hearing more anger and more realization of what this all has done TO YOU. Good. Go with it.


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## TeddieG

"Would you want her to confess because you bust her lying and confront/corner her? Or do you prefer her to come to her senses and make a moral decision to change her behavior and be honest - all on her own?"

THIS!! OW confronted him about his latest comings and goings and cornered him. He his chasing his tail like a rat to please her, and he's not going to be ANY happier or have addressed ANY of his issues in the meantime. His OW doesn't care that he's not voluntarily choosing any of this but reacting in a knee jerk to get back in her pants. For that high. And so he can sit in the victim chair while he puts the needle in his arm.


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## lifeistooshort

It's quite possible it's over but she's not committed. 

I think if you decide to go forward with her there's going to come a point where you start to question what kind of prize you actually got. Your wife is the victim of mistreatment and neglect from you and you've owned this. But your wife has also revealed a character flaw and a propensity to be mean. She views you as having all of the power in the marriage so she's going to take it back. .... which wouldn't be a bad thing of the marriage was becoming a partnership but it's not. It's her taking power and abusing it. 

Letting you know she'd cheat again is abusing this newly found power. If she didn't have a mean streak and character flaw she'd either tell that she'll give it her best shot and if it doesn't work you'll split up, or she'd tell you that you're an ahole and she's done with you. She's done neither..... she's let you know that she'll stick around and let you pay bills while she makes a questionable effort and if it suits her she'll cheat again. She'll also likely be on the lookout for your replacement.

Ask yourself if this is really how you want to live. Ok you were a jerk, but what price is reasonable to ask you to pay for this? I think that's a very important question.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

eh, it's also possible that her saying she could cheat again is simply her deciding to be 100% honest from now on, to make up for the lies she's already told and to try to get him to trust her again.


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## happy as a clam

Personally, I am very happy to see grid getting stronger for HIMSELF, and realizing that ANYTHING really is on the table:



Reconcile...

Cohabitate for awhile (long enough to get kids and finances in order) and a total 180...

Divorce...

Hang in there grid! You're making a lot of progress.

Remember, keep YOU and YOUR KIDS (but mostly YOU... because YOU will be the ANCHOR in this whole debacle) in the forefront of your decisions. Your wife rescinded any consideration for her well-being awhile back...

She made her decisions. NOW, MAKE YOURS.


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## tech-novelist

gridcom said:


> To that end, if she wanted to turn it off now, I really wouldn't care because I AM TELLING YOU ALL I am not afraid of the marriage ending. Once we had that conversation where she said she could cheat again given the right circumstances, that was really the turning point. That was two weeks ago tomorrow. Every day, my mind is getting stronger in going with divorce. Where as at one point all I could think about was how to save my marriage, now all I can think about is how I can get out of this marriage clean and with some money in my pocket to live a fulfilling live post divorce.
> 
> Deep down I would rather be happily married to my wife, so for right now I think it's best that nobody make any definitive decisions about anything. We both can tell that our minds and hearts are changing daily. Nothing is settled.
> ...
> 
> If there is anything I am not aware of, it happened before or right after I found out about the whole thing. If I am a betting man, I;d say it's pretty likely there is a bombshell or two hidden in that closet, but with the way my mind is cranking right now, I honestly don't care. Maybe I will down the road, but a post divorce single life is looking appealing right now.


Of course it is your life and you have to make your own decisions, but I think I should mention (because I haven't seen anyone do so recently, at least) that you will probably get the best deal out of a divorce right now rather than later. That is, assuming she is still in the "affair fog" and wants to get out so she can be with the OM, she is likely to make less trouble so she can get it over with quickly.


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## happy as a clam

technovelist said:


> I think I should mention (because I haven't seen anyone do so recently, at least) that *you will probably get the best deal out of a divorce right now rather than later.*


Truer words 'ere ne'er been spoke...

(Ok, that's my horrible attempt at a Shakespearean (or Irish/Celtic) revelation... )

Bottom line: Go ahead with divorce since she already filed. Get the best deal. Talk to your lawyer and consider filing a "counterclaim." You can renegotiate it all later.


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## LongWalk

You are healing. By refusing to prolong an unhealthy relationship you have gotten up and left your wife to sit her victim chair. TAM has saved you some of the costs of IC. Therapy is expensive but here on TAM you can gain perspective that has real value. There is more than one poster on your thread who could probably out perform the average professional marital therapist.

It is good that you don't care what she does, she will feel that you have shed the mate guarding anxiety. This will make an impression on her. Beware of some shyte test to try and provoke you. She'll want to find out if she is losing control. Even if you are not the man of her desires, she does not want to let you go.

How does your family get medical insurance?

Paying for her own plan, for therapy and a lawyer are all going to stimulate potential conflict.

It's a good that you can look back at the affair and see that there might be bombshells unexploded but that you are not going to dwell on what might lie buried back there. 

When will the divorce be final if you do not oppose it?


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## happy as a clam

LongWalk said:


> TAM has saved you some of the costs of IC. Therapy is expensive *but here on TAM you can gain perspective that has real value.* There is more than one poster on your thread who could probably out perform the average professional marital therapist...


:smthumbup:


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## bfree

Since you are headed for divorce anyway (she filed) surveillance is moot. Your focus should be on you and not on her in any way. I just want to remind you should you and she contemplate reconciliation that she cannot stay at that job. As long as she sees/communicates with her affair partner she cannot commit to NC. And until she does commit to NC you cannot reconcile. Bottom line, NC is designed to purge him out of her head and so long as he is in her head you aren't.


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## TeddieG

Yes, I wish I'd found TAM. But I am a person able to see the value of several arguments. I see that jld is encouraging a kind of preparation in Grid in the event reconciliation happens. Great. ALL forums and advisors who know anything about MLC say, take this time to work on yourself. The people behind the religious argument of standing for your marriage encourage delaying divorce, outlasting the MLC and the affair, but detaching and doing the 180 or whatever term is given to the general disposition of stepping aside from the drama from these sources as well. It is also important that people NOT move forward to divorce unless/until they are comfortable with it; calling someone's bluff or issuing an ultimatum means you absolutely MUST be prepared for the response/consequences, including be ready for the exact opposite of what you hope will happen. I've abandoned the notion that it is good to actively delay or stall or prevent divorce, but I don't think people should do it until they are absolutely ready, and able to be methodical and determined about it. I do regret the element of "it is your fault she cheated" that can be inferred by a person in pain and shock from the kinds of things that some Christian advisors promote, and the same thing occurs in some MLC forums. 

And I will say that it is easy to read and interpret a MLC'er's actions (and now that I'm here and have read extensively, cheaters of all stripes), when cheating, as confused and on the fence and thus perhaps still in love with the BS. It is extremely difficult to know if the person is conflicted and still loves the BS or is just cake-eating or is too afraid to make the leap. I personally believe, and I have many friends who attest to this, as well as family members, that I was his source of stability when he was his normal identity, not the depressed or manic guy of his bi polar. He is losing his last thread to stability and descending into the chaos and madness at the OW's (I haven't begun to tell you all some of the stories of the things she's done, but suffice it to say that either the cops or her neighbors will shoot her one night while she's wandering the streets of her neighborhood drunk in her nightgown, screaming at the bikers across the street or the n-words [her words] next door), so of course I have had compassion and patience with him. 

But the thing is, h asked for divorce 5 years ago, and we pursued it. The hearings were snowed out so it took a year, and we met in my lawyer's office and he left with a consent decree and agreement. We had a beer, said goodbye, he left at 4:30, and I expected him to go to the court the next day. He showed up at my house that night and said he didn't want to do it, could we get my lawyer to dismiss it? We did, against her advice; she said people who do that end up divorced anyway. Fast forward five years. Yup, if he shows up and says, I don't want to do this, I'm saying, sorry bud, you played that card. You want to reconcile? We'll do it while single. 

But what started all this was the horrible procedure of putting the stent in his private parts to stop a kidney stone passing. I connected his depression to his physical issues, and what I hoped to see was his treatment of his physical issues in hope it would alleviate his mental ones, like the depression. So we have been through several kidney stone procedures, possible prostate cancer with a second opinion a year later and no surgery required, then a heart attack, heart blockage, an aneurysm and extensive surgery he almost didn't survive, and treatment for high blood pressure. Rather than his mental health getting better, it got worse, and rather than dealing with his mortality, he rages against it, constantly quoting Dylan Thomas. 

So my questions were answered. He didn't get better, he got worse, and the more he felt he wanted to turn back the clock, the less room there was for me. I can go in peace, while he goes forward with his replay, but I stood back and had my questions answered. I didn't delay so that I could try to convince or persuade my husband to come back to me. I wanted to know that I did all I could, within my reasonable power, to determine when the right time was for me to gracefully exit stage left. I'm satisfied with my choices, but I think the recent most hurtful things were the price of doing that. I have a bitter taste in my mouth because he was given all kinds of support to act like a man, but he chose to be Peter Pan; I'm not bitter at him, or bitter with him, I'm just bitter at the random bull**** the universe lays out sometimes. It is part of my grief process and I will resolve it. But I made my choices, knew there would be consequences either way, and I could not possibly have known five years ago that if I had pressed on the divorce and insisted we finish the outcome would have been the same, just shorter in duration. But I got my answers; I had to stick around longer than I would have liked to get them, but it was worth it; and the hurt was the turning point. Long term it really didn't cost me anything but it almost cost me my dissertation, but the universe is taking care of that. I needed the absolute smack to my gut of "I want to be with her forever and want a divorce" to be able to have a clear conscience about his mental health issues. 

But trying to get someone to reconcile with you, trying to change so someone will reconcile with you, trying to influence the outcome and control the process? Insanity. That's where I agree with all the folks here. And now that I'm on this side of it, I can see how people lose patience with folks who enable their spouse to keep cheating and treating them badly; but people external to my life, and members of my family, thought I was putting up with a lot when I really wasn't. I was observing and standing outside the insanity waiting for the answers to my questions, and I got them. I am not entirely going to get closure, but I'm getting enough.


----------



## cbnero

I will second the idea to push the divorce sooner vs later. As my attorney told me: 

1. There is likely to be a cooling off period prior to the divorce being approved, and that's after both parties agree.

2. If you hold off and separate without pushing it through, WS is likely to experience the pains of reality and without recognizing her own responsibility in getting to that point, she is very likely to blame you and become even more hostile. Especially if you continue to grow and work on yourself. Her life sucks, yours looks great. Good luck getting favorable or reasonable terms from her at that point. 

If she does have some underlying guilt, getting the D going and processed now would be ideal.

3. If she turns her life around you can always get remarried. It does happen. One of my employees remarried his spouse after 5 years apart and they are happy, that was 10 years ago. If she doesn't fix herself you escaped intact with favorable terms.


----------



## Chaparral

A workplace affair is nearly impossible to monitor.

Who do you get your information as to when his shifts are? How do you know he doesn't come in early for example? How do you know they can't meet up for lunch when one of them isn't working or she just leaves her phone at the workplace?

I'm not saying they are but how do you verify these things?


----------



## LongWalk

Indeed, one can argue that giving a defiant cheater the divorce they request, the betrayed spouse is actually providing them with the fastest course to confront reality, the only place that may influence them to begin to deal with their issues.


----------



## happy as a clam

TeddieG said:


> I see that jld is encouraging a kind of preparation in Grid in the event reconciliation happens.


Through many forum and private (PM) discussions, @jld is a kind, loving soul .

Her advice is priceless, instrumental, necessary, when it comes to repairing a relationship where communication, dynamic, power struggle comes into play. And where a man is not stepping up, leading, providing guidance for a couple and a family.

However, her advice DOES NOT WORK when a spouse is STILL INVOLVED WITH AN AFFAIR PARTNER. I think jld might argue differently... that all you have to do is lead better, lead harder, lead stronger and it will all work out in your favor.

I say, "No way, Jose."

I know this because I dated, loved, gave my whole life to, and was engaged to a cheater... the whole wedding was planned... invitations sent... flights and hotels arranged... deposits on the venue, flowers, food, reception, booze, dress, tuxedos ALREADY PAID... I called the WHOLE THING OFF 10 days before the date... Cost my hard-working parents thousands of dollars.

And not because I "needed him to lead me more." Not because "I just needed to feel safe and secure, let him be a Marlboro man who leads me to safety..."

I called it off because I CAUGHT HIM IN BED with a very close friend just weeks before the wedding.

*I needed him to NOT BE A CHEATER/LIAR/DESPICABLE PERSON.*

*jld's plan works if you are in a committed relationship. It DOES NOT WORK if you are with a committed cheater.* With all due respect, I do not believe jld has ever experienced infidelity. So consider the source...


----------



## TeddieG

LongWalk said:


> Indeed, one can argue that giving a defiant cheater the divorce they request, the betrayed spouse is actually providing them with the fastest course to confront reality, the only place that may influence them to begin to deal with their issues.


I agree. And as someone doing that now, I am looking forward to being free of all this bullcrap, but also expect to hear from him about how sad and upset he is because he isn't happy and his big plans didn't work out. I'll simply respond with, sorry you feel that way.


----------



## TeddieG

happy as a clam said:


> Through many forum and private (PM) discussions, @jld is a kind, loving soul .
> 
> Her advice is priceless, instrumental, necessary, when it comes to repairing a relationship where communication, dynamic, power struggle comes into play. And where a man is not stepping up, leading, providing guidance for a couple and a family.
> 
> However, her advice DOES NOT WORK when a spouse is STILL INVOLVED WITH AN AFFAIR PARTNER. I think jld might argue differently... that all you have to do is lead better, lead harder, lead stronger and it will all work out in your favor.
> 
> I say, "No way, Jose."
> 
> I know this because I dated, loved, gave my whole life to, and was engaged to a cheater... the whole wedding was planned... invitations sent... flights and hotels arranged... deposits on the venue, flowers, food, reception, booze, dress, tuxedos ALREADY PAID... I called the WHOLE THING OFF 10 days before the date... Cost my hard-working parents thousands of dollars.
> 
> And not because I "needed him to lead me more." Not because "I just needed to feel safe and secure, let him be a Marlboro man who leads me to safety..."
> 
> I called it off because I CAUGHT HIM IN BED with a very close friend just weeks before the wedding.
> 
> *jld's plan works if you are in a committed relationship. It DOES NOT WORK if you are with a committed cheater.* With all due respect, I do not believe jld has ever experienced infidelity. So consider the source...


I agree, and I could hear the sweetness in jld. But Jim Conway, who wrote the book on men in midlife crisis, didn't cheat either. I thought his advice made sense, up to a point, and found it more palatable than Jim Dobson's, but JIM CONWAY DIDN'T cheat nor was he cheated on, and of course he would advise women to hang around. I was actually in a chat room with him one time; h had come home from being at OW's, and she called and proposed that he live with me during the week and spend weekends with her, and I thought that was insane. She said why, don't you think it is possible for him to love two people, and I said, sure, but he has to choose ONE! I talked to Jim Conway about that in chat, thinking he might get some insight into the insanity. I'm not sure why I turned to Jim Conway because I left Christianity a long time ago because of the self-appointed experts who interpret the Bible any way they want to and hang shingles on store-front strip mall churches and call themselves an authority with no accountability. But Conway has degrees in Psychology, and I was looking to find equilibrium and also a way to forgive my h. As I learned as an undergraduate, when people are under dire stress and in crisis, they turn to the religion they know or used to know in hopes of finding one little grasp of certainty to hang on to. There's nothing like a spouse's infidelity to sap the certainty out of your soul. 

I reminded h, when he was home recuperating from surgery about a month ago, that OW had proposed, and presented on his behalf, the notion that we should share him, and that unbeknownst to me, I'd been doing that for longer than I realized. I guess he shared with her that little visit down memory lane, because that's when she put the pressure on to make him propose. LOL! 

Yes, workplace affairs are hard to monitor, and so are affairs where the BS works and the WS and his affair partner do not.


----------



## gridcom

TeddieG said:


> And I will say that it is easy to read and interpret a MLC'er's actions (and now that I'm here and have read extensively, cheaters of all stripes), when cheating, as confused and on the fence and thus perhaps still in love with the BS. It is extremely difficult to know if the person is conflicted and still loves the BS or is just cake-eating or is too afraid to make the leap.


good stuff


----------



## TeddieG

gridcom said:


> good stuff


Thanks. This was the hardest part for me. And it never got better. He was actually reaching out and talking about his health issues and I thought he was settling down and really truly all the way home after his heart attack in April; I could just hear and feel the vulnerability and the desire for stability. But after he thought he almost died on the table during the aneurysm surgery, he ran back to the replay, came home again and then my mother died, and he ran back to the replay. Ultimately Peter Pan can't face mortality. So see? There are so many internal and random external things happening to them that just f**k up their response mechanisms when they're already in a crisis. 

It was like the closer he got, or the closer he came to getting closer, the further and faster he ran when something knocked him off center. 

I needed some sort of context to put his behavior in, I needed some explanation for why, while he WAS a passive-aggressive azzhole that I didn't recognize, what happened to make him that way. 

KWIM? It all makes sense to me now, but it took this long for it to finally make sense. And I also had to accept that it might never. And even if it does, I can't account for the all random crap that sent him scurrying back to replay, but it just is what it is.


----------



## Chuck71

TeddieG...... I do hope you meander through TAM for a good while

Your wisdom is priceless, just wish you did not have to learn it.... the way you did

Nothing warms my heart more than a female throwing down with both barrels


----------



## LongWalk

> There are so many internal and random external things happening to them that just f**k up their response mechanisms when they're already in a crisis.


And this echoes what Grid wrote earlier about his wife not accepting that divorce meant a major shift in their lives. In fact many people facing divorce are shocked when they have to divide pots and pans and furniture.

My ex and I divorced long ago but possessions accumulated together continue to have a special unresolved status even though everything was settled. When I go over to her place and see some old piece of furniture we bought together on the patio being destroyed by the rain, i groan inwardly because it is a piece of the life that is gone.

Somethings have no monetary value. My eldest daughter managed to grow a lemon tree from a seed in kindergarten. The tree was with me after divorce. One year I when I was travelling I left it with my ex. A few years later she left outside in the winter and it died. I was bummed out. Lemon trees have nasty thorns, waxy leaves and on my daughter's there was never any fruit. To my ex it was just a undesirable house plant. To me it meant something.

A couple of years ago my ex suddenly wanted my younger daughter's Yamaha electric piano, to sell to her boyfriend at a discount so that he could give it to his daughter as a Christmas present. Why was she still thinking of this after so many years? And why would I want to subsidize a present to her new guy's kids.

This is why people always talk about letting go. You can never let go completely and entirely. You'd need a lobotomy to blank out your life. That's why you have grieve and build something new.

Your wife will always be special. You had history. You are tied together by your children. Both of you are moving away from each other in fits and starts. Your wife did a lot of detaching emotionally. And when she slept with OM she severed a key tie between you. She was in some sense prepared and determined to cut you off sexually. She sent out those female-body-off limits rays that go right through a being to cause that tight feeling in the chest.

Right now you are finally beginning to breath normally. The sale of the house was in comprehensible to you at the beginning. But now it looks like part of a solution. Your WW is now going to confront the plundering of your common goods and chattel. You many be better able to deal with this than she is at present.

Posters are telling to you do the divorce quickly because she is in the fog. Actually, dividing up the goods in a very hard-azzed way may be beyond her comprehension, just as you could not picture the grubby OM you scarcely knew panting over your wife, she cannot yet see loading crap into trailers and wasting days driving to a new home.

Does OM live in an condo, house, apartment or basement?


----------



## TeddieG

Chuck71 said:


> TeddieG...... I do hope you meander through TAM for a good while
> 
> Your wisdom is priceless, just wish you did not have to learn it.... the way you did
> 
> Nothing warms my heart more than a female throwing down with both barrels


Thank you, Chuck71. I appreciate that. I hope this mess becomes meaningful in some way. I like helping people, and as many forums as I have scoped out, this one feels the most comfortable, the most balanced in its approach, even if there IS a lot of tough love here!


----------



## TeddieG

From LongWalk: "*Both of you are moving away from each other in fits and starts.*Your wife did a lot of detaching emotionally. And when she slept with OM she severed a key tie between you."

THIS! 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## ButtPunch

If you lied to her, no wonder she left you. Lying is a huge trust breaker." 



This is what JLD posted on a different thread. OP had snuck a couple of beers late one night after hanging out with his buddies and lied about it. 

So you are telling me that when a
woman fu*ks another man behind her husbands back . No big deal you need to make her feel safe. 

Dude sneaks two beers and he deserves to be left. 

Something ain't right here.


----------



## LongWalk

She left him because it was the wrong brand of beer.


----------



## Evinrude58

Grid is more of a man than me if he's already getting over this and making this much progress. I still fret over this crap. But I am absolutely certain my ex is not worthy of being called "wife". She texted me the other day that she "was a fantastic mother and fantastic wife, and will be again"

"Your response should be


I agree"

I have this crazy idea a fantastic mother/wife doesn't send nude pics of herself and sext multiple guys, sext them while her kids and me are beside her at a soccer game, and then work toward moving them in with a wealthy heir who has never worked a day in his life, and is a drunk. Just my story. 

Grid will have many of his own to tell one day. Get it done fast while she still feels guilty is good advice.
Hang in there, grid. You're doing well, I think.


----------



## TeddieG

LongWalk said:


> She left him because it was the wrong brand of beer.


Well, hey, that IS a reason to leave a guy. No cheap Milwaukee's Best Light for me, bud.


----------



## ButtPunch

I thought that she should walk barefoot in the snow and fetch her rock a beer. A man needs to feel safe drinking a cold one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happy as a clam

LongWalk said:


> Somethings have no monetary value. My eldest daughter managed to grow a lemon tree from a seed in kindergarten. The tree was with me after divorce. One year I when I was travelling I left it with my ex. A few years later she left outside in the winter and it died. I was bummed out. Lemon trees have nasty thorns, waxy leaves and on my daughter's there was never any fruit. To my ex it was just a undesirable house plant. *To me it meant something.*



Awwww.. @LongWalk, this brought tears to my eyes.

My SO had a banana tree since he was 11 years old. He has rooted and sent off new "shoots" to friends/family/relatives, etc. over the years. (Mind you, he is 54 years old now!)

When his ex-wife scammed him out of his hard earned business, I ran up there and pulled a "shoot" off his original plant.

A year-and-a-half later, it is still alive, *but it has NOT GROWN AT ALL...* it is alive, but sadly looks just like the day I plucked it from it's source, with just a few more spindly leaves.

A very spiritual friend (as in a psychic) told me "That's just the way it is... some things are tainted from the start and not meant to be."



(Sorry for the thread jack, grid...)


----------



## LongWalk

Clam,

Have you tried planting medicinal cannabis? Hear it grows like a weed.

And jld, you are much loved TAM stalwart. Don't forget that.


----------



## happy as a clam

LongWalk said:


> Clam,
> 
> Have you tried planting medicinal cannabis? Hear it grows like a weed.


Never considered it! In my state it is still illegal. But Mary Jane could be coming to a state near me! 



LongWalk said:


> And jld, you are much loved TAM stalwart. Don't forget that.


Always, @jld. People like you make the world go round...


----------



## TeddieG

"Just make your changes and move forward with regret and some kindness. She does not get to build her happiness on your loss and pain." 

I am just now getting through the middle section of this thread and found this, #266, in JohnA's post. I like it. It is powerful. 

And I don't know jld well but I already love her. Along with all her other qualities, she is courageous and stands her ground.


----------



## Chuck71

ButtPunch said:


> I thought that she should walk barefoot in the snow and fetch her rock a beer. A man needs to feel safe drinking a cold one.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Any guy should NEVER bring home two beers, EVER

it at least takes six to get a good buzz


----------



## TeddieG

Chuck71 said:


> Any guy should NEVER bring home two beers, EVER
> 
> it at least takes six to get a good buzz


Unless they're ponies.  

:wink2:>


----------



## Chuck71

TeddieG said:


> Unless they're ponies.
> 
> :wink2:>


:smthumbup: A woman after my own heart! Where were you 25 years ago? j/k


----------



## TeddieG

Lol, Chuck! I was an undergraduate, writing papers under the influence of ponies. Yeeee Haaa!


----------



## lifeistooshort

Why would anyone need to lie about a couple of beers, unless they're a raging alcoholic? 

Which I don't get the impression grid is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TeddieG

You know, I really think in an environment of suspicion and paranoia, or the need to control, the simplest thing becomes fraught with meaning. Frankly I think it is pretty damn sad a man or a woman can't have a couple of beers in his or her house.


----------



## Chuck71

TeddieG said:


> Lol, Chuck! I was an undergraduate, writing papers under the influence of ponies. Yeeee Haaa!


You were clearly ahead of me! As an undergrad, I could not write to save my life.

Today I write books.... whooda thunk it as my pop would say


----------



## gridcom

They arent talking about me with the beer.


----------



## Thundarr

Evinrude58 said:


> Grid is more of a man than me if he's already getting over this and making this much progress. I still fret over this crap. But I am absolutely certain my ex is not worthy of being called "wife". She texted me the other day that she "was a fantastic mother and fantastic wife, and will be again"
> 
> "Your response should be
> I agree"
> 
> I have this crazy idea a fantastic mother/wife doesn't send nude pics of herself and sext multiple guys, sext them while her kids and me are beside her at a soccer game, and then work toward moving them in with a wealthy heir who has never worked a day in his life, and is a drunk. Just my story.
> 
> Grid will have many of his own to tell one day. Get it done fast while she still feels guilty is good advice.
> Hang in there, grid. You're doing well, I think.


I remember your first thread Evinrude and Grid is in such a similar place to yours back then including the mindset of your ex and his wife. Very good advice about "getting it done while she still feels guilty".


----------



## TeddieG

Chuck71 said:


> You were clearly ahead of me! As an undergrad, I could not write to save my life.
> 
> Today I write books.... whooda thunk it as my pop would say


It's never too late to be what you might have been. - George Eliot


----------



## tech-novelist

TeddieG said:


> It's never too late to be what you might have been. - George Eliot


"Be yourself. Everyone else is already taken." 
Oscar Wilde


----------



## TeddieG

technovelist said:


> "Be yourself. Everyone else is already taken."
> Oscar Wilde


Love. Thanks, tech.


----------



## TeddieG

gridcom said:


> They arent talking about me with the beer.


QFT.


----------



## Hardtohandle

From a guy who's wife had several EA's and probably several PA's ( I admittedly know of only one. But it seems others in my family caught my EX wife in the street with another man ). 

I can tell you that when my wife got caught, she immediately became re-committed to the marriage and me. 

Only the last time did she fake it.. I caught her with a 2nd phone, but never suspected a 3rd phone.. NOT MY WIFE... 

Nonetheless you can read my story if you want. 

But I didn't ask my Ex wife to figure out the numbers.. I gave her an Excel spreadsheet with all the numbers broken down. Along with the numbers of what I could really afford in child support. 

I get you want to work this out in the worst way.. I did all those other times as well. But in the end she left me.. 

I will tell you this.. Nothing says that SHE gets to keep the kids.. 

I have the kids and my Ex wife pays me child support.. Mind you back then I made 5x more than she did.. I made over 100k a year.. Today I make more than 200k a year and she still pays me.. 

Personally to me when you asked her if this could happen again and she said yes.. It was pretty much over for me.. I mean really even if I was thinking yes.. I would fvcking lie and tell you no.. No good comes out of telling you yes.. Nothing.. 

Again having gone through this several times I could tell the last time just wasn't right.. And yes my Ex met him all over the place even with find my iphone active.. She met him at the mall that I knew she was going. .She met him at the grocery store.. Down the block from her work place.. Again all stolen moments, minutes here and there.. 

But the kids adjust.. My Ex hasn't spoken to my oldest son ( 15 years old ) in almost 3 years.. 

He just showed me his grades. He has 100 in social studies.. 
A fvcking score of 100... It's amazing to me.. 
Everything else was 90s. Highest grade in all his classes except 1..
He is doing better now than when his mom was here.. 

All I can say is hope for the best but expect the worst.. Good luck..


----------



## TeddieG

Hardtohandle said:


> All I can say is hope for the best but expect the worst.. Good luck..


I second that motion.


----------



## TeddieG

One of the things I finally learned is that it is great to have hope. But I also learned that I confused and collapsed hope with expectation. There's a HUGE difference, and one of the biggest problems in a relationship or a job or a situation with a university or a move to a new city or . . . fill in the blank . . . is expectations. Hope is good; it is not specific, it doesn't require that you make a list or check off some boxes. It is nebulous and it doesn't separate your from reality; you can live with what is and hope that you want might materialize. Expectations? Nah. I thought that because I had hope, based on absolutely no empirical evidence or statistics or testimonials or anecdotes, just the off chance that the universe might randomly have plans to give me a happy ending (and thus the onus was on the universe and not me or anyone else), I could manage, but I only learned to do that when I let go of expectations. The only thing I expected, deep down inside, was the worst. I anticipated it even, just in case, so I'd be ready. I'm still not as ready for the worst, which has happened, as I thought I was, but it is better than having expectations for the best case scenario and picking myself up off the floor for feeling stupid and deluded.


----------



## TeddieG

Chuck71 said:


> You were clearly ahead of me! As an undergrad, I could not write to save my life.
> 
> Today I write books.... whooda thunk it as my pop would say


That's C. S. Lewis in your avatar, right? Nice mentor, I'd say. Surprised by Joy? Or A Grief Observed? Maybe both?


----------



## LongWalk

Grid,

A couple of TAM truisms: 

Give defiant people what they ask for – i.e., your wife asks for divorce, give it to her.

When people tell you who they are believe them – i.e., your wife has told you she is a cheater and could be again, believe her. She is not lying to you.

If you accept your wife back now, she returns with a blank check to divorce or cheat again.

It is possible that OM lies waiting for your wife on the other side and that the life they have will be, to quote the Pixies "... giganitic, giganitic, A big, big, love". Who knows anything for sure?



> *“Hope” is the thing with feathers* - (314)
> BY EMILY D*CKINSON
> “Hope” is the thing with feathers -
> That perches in the soul -
> And sings the tune without the words -
> And never stops - at all -
> 
> And sweetest - in the Gale - is heard -
> And sore must be the storm -
> That could abash the little Bird
> That kept so many warm -
> 
> I’ve heard it in the chillest land -
> And on the strangest Sea -
> Yet - never - in Extremity,
> It asked a crumb - of me.


----------



## Anon Pink

@gridcom,

I was going to say congrats on your wife agreeing to work on the marriage but there seems to be a great deal of discrepancy in what that actually means. So...what does that actually mean? Do you both agree on what that means, have you discussed it?

I do hope you take MEM's advice regarding the budget discussion. That will show both strength and leadership so long as you stay calm, firm, and also a little light hearted. I kind of see your wife as not being firmly rooted in reality and maybe she is getting a big dose of that. I think you mentioned your concern that she choose to work on the marriage because she WANTS to stay with YOU rather than the fact that she can't afford to leave you. That was one of the driving factors for me to agree to Retrouvaille with my H. I wanted out pretty badly but knew the financial situation would be difficult on both of us and that made me feel guilty. I didn't choose to work on the marriage because I wanted HIM, I wanted the marriage to work because it was the best thing for ALL of us, kids included. My compromised decision turned into a happy decision in the end though. He doesn't need to know that the fear of splitting up the assets was a big factor.  

Today I choose HIM! I no longer day dream about having my own little condo with no husband around to upset me. Today I dream about our retirement, touring the country in an RV and upsetting the neighbors with loud sex!

Are you still planning to attend Retrouvaille in Novemeber?

I think your wife is still pretty resentful and that resentment is blocking her ability to be remorseful about her affair. To get to remorse, you have to get past the resentment and resentment is a B!TCH! Years and years of resentment will not go away quickly or easily. To handle her resentment, follow JLD's advice. I followed her husband's advice about transparency and my husband followed JLD's advice about humility and strength. Everyone here dumps on JLD, but she is usually right, LOL and that pisses them off!

I think this current detachment you're feeling might lead to you resetting the dynamic between you and your wife. If you use it to your advantage. It's hard to show leadership and strength when you're anxious and desperate. But now you're a bit detached, those two should be easier.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

LongWalk said:


> Grid,
> 
> A couple of TAM truisms:
> 
> Give defiant people what they ask for –


LW, you left out the second part of that truism:

Give defiant people what they want. It rarely works out the way they think it will.


----------



## LongWalk

Inside of Anonpink's advice there is some solid advice. She says:



> I think this current detachment you're feeling might lead to you resetting the dynamic between you and your wife. If you use it to your advantage. It's hard to show leadership and strength when you're anxious and desperate. But now you're a bit detached, those two should be easier. That will show both strength and leadership so long as you stay calm, firm, and also a little light hearted.


You face divorce but you are calm, firm and can still smile. Self depreciating humor that is not doormat angst will change the dynamic of communication. indeed, you want to have good communication even if you are divorcing.

One key common point, a tangent that is bridge between the ButtPunch and jld points of view is that you keep things simple. BP eschews manipulation. I think jld and AnonPink feel the same way. if you use your wife's economic weakness to break her, that is unloving. She cheated on you. Do you now want her to live next door to a meth house to teach her a lesson?

Now that you have Teddie's hope versus expectation, you are mentally in a much stronger place. You should always keep hope, but don't make decisions based 90% on hope and 10% on reality. The ratio should be the other way round.

It is interesting that manipulation is based largely on expected outcomes.

Your wife's comment about cheating could still happen, was that her opinion about herself or all men and women?

Did you go to church together last Sunday? What about this Sunday? Don't go to church to manipulate her. Go if you want to. If you feel like playing softball or the drums do that instead.

Since your wife filed for divorce in October it will become final April or May, right?


----------



## Chuck71

TeddieG said:


> That's C. S. Lewis in your avatar, right? Nice mentor, I'd say. Surprised by Joy? Or A Grief Observed? Maybe both?


Yep.... it's 'ol Clive. I'm more Abolition of Man.

First time I read it, made as much sense as toilet paper in a teapot.

Second read.... enlightenment. 

Huxley was a close second.


----------



## ButtPunch

I do agree that the money could manipulate her back. I do not agree breaking out the spreadsheets, 
highlighter, and power point presentation are the way to go about it. She isn't going to see the light until 
her lawyer shows her the numbers then she will believe them.

Then what do you have. A wife who only stays with you because she can't afford to leave you. This happened
to an employee of mine. Wife was miserable and stayed four years until she left him when she found a better provider (a Richie). Just imagine your sex life with a wife who is only there for your money. No one deserves this.

People like to think that their story is different or unique. Sadly, they are not. There are countless threads that mirror yours. Your wife will cheat again if she doesn't see severe consequences for the affair. Your wife will not "desire" you until she fears she has lost you. She will not respect you until you respect yourself. The best way to save your marriage is to not be afraid to lose it. 

Grid....Your wife is deep in this affair still. Even if they aren't talking she is still deep in it. Her mind is his. Her fantasies are his. Her desire still burns for him. Her resentment for you will not change the least while this is still happening. How do you break her of this? You don't because that would be a manipulation. However, I have seen the 180 and exposure do exactly what I'm talking about. Get the WS out of the fog. 

My advice...... Do the 180 for you and not for the expectation of getting your wife back.


----------



## ButtPunch

Anon Pink said:


> @gridcom,
> 
> Everyone here dumps on JLD, but she is usually right, LOL and that pisses them off!
> 
> .


I would like to see evidence to support this because time after time all I see on these threads is a BH whose wife is still cheating or hits him with divorce papers.


----------



## Anon Pink

@ButtPunch,

If you take a step back from the anger over being betrayed, the desire for revenge or retribution, JLD is right. The outcome; the ultimate outcome of following JLD's advice is that you become a better person who is stronger, more attractive and thus better able to find and keep the right partner who may or may not be the WW.

In rare situations a cheating wife is a really damaged individual who needs to be dealt with entirely differently. 

I don't see grid's wife as a damaged individual. Angry, but not damaged. Right now she is justifying her affair with her anger. Right now she is justifying future affairs with her current anger. Anger is the cover for hurt and fear. Hurt and fear are the root. He did hurt her for years and he knows this. But he can only address her hurt and fear from a position of strength, without the slightest hint of desperation or anxiousness. 

I think they're both very passionate people and passion can be destructive. Once they get to a place of healing that passion will knit them back together rather quickly. That's my prediction anyway.


----------



## ButtPunch

Anon Pink said:


> @ButtPunch,
> 
> If you take a step back from the anger over being betrayed, the desire for revenge or retribution, JLD is right. The outcome; the ultimate outcome of following JLD's advice is that you become a better person who is stronger, more attractive and thus better able to find and keep the right partner who may or may not be the WW.
> 
> In rare situations a cheating wife is a really damaged individual who needs to be dealt with entirely differently.
> 
> I don't see grid's wife as a damaged individual. Angry, but not damaged. Right now she is justifying her affair with her anger. Right now she is justifying future affairs with her current anger. Anger is the cover for hurt and fear. Hurt and fear are the root. He did hurt her for years and he knows this. But he can only address her hurt and fear from a position of strength, without the slightest hint of desperation or anxiousness.
> 
> I think they're both very passionate people and passion can be destructive. Once they get to a place of healing that passion will knit them back together rather quickly. That's my prediction anyway.


I hear you but how is becoming a cuckold becoming stronger and more attractive. How is it not weak and pathetic?


----------



## ButtPunch

Anon Pink said:


> @ButtPunch,
> 
> If you take a step back from the anger over being betrayed, the desire for revenge or retribution, JLD is right. The outcome; the ultimate outcome of following JLD's advice is that you become a better person who is stronger, more attractive and thus better able to find and keep the right partner who may or may not be the WW.
> .


This isn't the case. I'm not angry. I went thru this many moons ago and with the help of TAM was able to save my marriage and my self esteem.

JLD is trying to manipulate his WW back with Dr. Harleys technique that you can't keep kicking someone who is 100% vulnerable and nice to you all the time. 

Where in her advice does the BS become stronger and more attractive?


----------



## Anon Pink

ButtPunch said:


> I hear you but how is becoming a cuckold becoming stronger and more attractive. How is it not weak and pathetic?


Behaving in a way to prevent becoming a cuckold is weakness because it is motivated by fear of hurt.

Anyone can cheat. Anyone. If the conditions are right, anyone can cheat. Once you accept that you understand that the competition for this partner never ends. Give your spouse your very best. That's all anyone can do. If your very best isn't enough, then it's time to move on. Grid hasn't given her his very best. 

I make a point of telling my husband every time I notice I am getting attention from other men. Keeps him on his toes. Reminds him he isn't the only fish out there and if he wants me he needs to give his best. Most of you, I suspect, would be terribly threatened by that. My husband isn't. That's attractive to me.


----------



## LongWalk

From womenslaw.org In NY state:



> No-fault ground - You can get a "no-fault" divorce if, according to either party, the marriage has "broken down irretrievably" for a period of at least six months (in other states, the common term used is "irreconcilable differences.") You do not have to be separated for 6 months, you just have to allege that the marriage has been completely broken down for at least the past 6 months. Note: A judgment of divorce will not be granted under this ground until the following issues are resolved by the parties, or determined by the court and incorporated into the judgment of divorce:
> 
> *equitable distribution (division) of marital property,
> the payment or waiver of spousal support,
> the payment of child support,
> the payment of counsel and experts' fees and expenses, and
> the custody and visitation of any minor children of the marriage.**


Grid's wife has already shelled out a couple of hundred dollars. Wonder what she included in her filing?



> How much does a contested divorce cost?
> 
> As of 2014, the court fees for an uncontested divorce will add up to approximately $335 or possibly more -- for contested divorces, where motions are commonly filed, the costs can increase greatly since each motion costs $45 and other filings may add additional costs. If you cannot afford the fees, you may file an application to proceed as a poor person. Here, for example, is an affidavit that would be filed when asking to have the fees waived (in other words, to "proceed as a poor person.") The clerk's office can tell you exactly what forms to file. If you qualify, you will not have to pay the fees.
> 
> Also, for a contested divorce, it is strongly recommended to have an attorney. Attorneys usually charge an hourly rate, ranging from $175 to $450 or possibly even more, depending on experience. They usually require an advance retainer, which is an initial deposit against which you are billed. You might be able to get an attorney for no cost through our NY Finding a Lawyer page or, if you are low-income, you may be able to get an attorney appointed for you by the court to handle custody and visitation matters.*
> 
> However, if you cannot afford to pay for an attorney, there is a law that may help if your spouse earns/has more money than you do. The law says that the judge can order the spouse who has more money to pay the lower-income spouse's attorney's fees and the fees and expenses of experts (such as a forensic psychologist) if this is necessary for you to be adequately represented in the divorce. The judge will assume that the richer spouse should pay the poorer spouse's attorney fees although the richer spouse can try to change the judge's mind and offer evidence to show why this should not be done. The money would be paid during the divorce (not at the end) to your attorney directly.** This law also applies to a court case you may have to later bring to enforce any part of the divorce or custody order that the other spouse is violating.***


----------



## ButtPunch

Anon Pink said:


> Behaving in a way to prevent becoming a cuckold is weakness because it is motivated by fear of hurt.
> 
> Anyone can cheat. Anyone. If the conditions are right, anyone can cheat. Once you accept that you understand that the competition for this partner never ends. Give your spouse your very best. That's all anyone can do. If your very best isn't enough, then it's time to move on. Grid hasn't given her his very best.
> 
> I make a point of telling my husband every time I notice I am getting attention from other men. Keeps him on his toes. Reminds him he isn't the only fish out there and if he wants me he needs to give his best. Most of you, I suspect, would be terribly threatened by that. My husband isn't. That's attractive to me.


JLD's method or using the 180 to win his ww back are one and the same. They are manipulations to win his wife back motivated by fear of hurt. 

I fundamentally disagree that everyone has the propensity to cheat. They do not. My Father taught me nothing is more important than character, honor and integrity.

Hopefully, your husband flirts with women in front of you to keep you on your toes.


----------



## Chuck71

"Also, for a contested divorce, it is strongly recommended to have an attorney. Attorneys *usually charge an hourly rate, ranging from $175 to $450 or possibly even more, depending on experience"*

Do they provide the condoms and lube or does one have to bring their own?


----------



## Anon Pink

ButtPunch said:


> This isn't the case. I'm not angry. I went thru this many moons ago and with the help of TAM was able to save my marriage and my self esteem.
> 
> JLD is trying to manipulate his WW back with Dr. Harleys technique that you can't keep kicking someone who is 100% vulnerable and nice to you all the time.
> 
> Where in her advice does the BS become stronger and more attractive?



Perhaps your wife wasn't as angry with you as grid's wife is with him?

The vulnerability is being open to accepting her anger over the way he had treated her. They won't move forward until her anger is dealt with.

A man who can stand solidly, look at the way he mistreated his wife, own it, apologize and ask forgiveness is by definition a strong man. 

The only place JLD and I disagree on is boundaries. I think more wives respect boundaries laid down by their husband than are threatened by them. JLD is threatened by boundaries so she cautions against them. 

But boundaries have to come from a safe and solid place and they aren't there yet. For right now grid can demonstrate a boundary by getting the finances in order and insisting she get on board with the new plan.


----------



## Anon Pink

ButtPunch said:


> JLD's method or using the 180 to win his ww back are one and the same. They are manipulations to win his wife back motivated by fear of hurt.
> 
> I fundamentally disagree that everyone has the propensity to cheat. They do not. My Father taught me nothing is more important than character, honor and integrity.
> 
> Hopefully, your husband flirts with women in front of you to keep you on your toes.


That's okay. We disagree about anyone can cheat given the right circumstances.

My husband does not flirt with other women in front of me except with a few friends. Doesn't bother me in the slightest.


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> This isn't the case. I'm not angry. I went thru this many moons ago and with the help of TAM was able to save my marriage and my self esteem.
> 
> JLD is trying to manipulate his WW back with Dr. Harleys technique that you can't keep kicking someone who is 100% vulnerable and nice to you all the time.
> 
> Where in her advice does the BS become stronger and more attractive?


A husband's being able to hear his wife's pain without rejecting her means strength to me. It makes me trust my own husband. And being able to trust him is part of what makes him attractive to me.

Grid, I would not put much stock in your wife's saying she could cheat again. A few weeks of treating her as I suggested could easily change her words to ones you would find more pleasant.

Grid, I look at your marriage and think it could so easily be saved. It is completely within your power to make this happen. I do not see drug abuse, or great crime. I see a negligent and hurt husband and a vulnerable and hurt wife.

If nothing else, put your kids first. You know they do not want you to divorce their mom, not deep down. And certainly not over hurt feelings or pride.


----------



## ButtPunch

Anon Pink said:


> A man who can stand solidly, look at the way he mistreated his wife, own it, apologize and ask forgiveness is by definition a strong man.
> 
> .


LOL....says who? Women's Lib


----------



## jld

Anon Pink said:


> The only place JLD and I disagree on is boundaries. I think more wives respect boundaries laid down by their husband than are threatened by them. JLD is threatened by boundaries so she cautions against them.
> 
> But boundaries have to come from a safe and solid place and they aren't there yet. For right now grid can demonstrate a boundary by getting the finances in order and insisting she get on board with the new plan.


I agree that boundaries on finances would help them very much. It would be a good chance for grid to demonstrate leading through self-discipline.

I think healthy boundaries can come about without using control techniques. I think the healthiest boundaries are those we put on ourselves, to be the people we want to be.


----------



## bfree

Anon, I agree with much of your post and frankly jld and I agree on much as well. The biggest difference between what jld is suggesting and what others suggest is the impetus behind the changes grid should be looking to make. If he works on himself in the hopes that his wife will reverse course and cancel the divorce the changes he makes will not stick. The new grid will be superficial at best. As soon as he feels comfortable that his marriage is no longer in trouble he will most likely start backsliding since his goal has been achieved. If his wife continues on her current path and they do end up divorcing he will give up since his goal is no longer in reach. That is why he MUST change for himself with no expectations or goals other than self improvement. And when jld encourages him to talk to his wife I fear if he does so it will fall on deaf ears making him look needy and pathetic. She's no doubt heard it all before. All the promises, all the assurances, all the words. You know exactly what I'm talking about. In a relationship how many times is a complaint lodged and ignored. How many times are promises made and rarely kept. The time for taking is over. He has been betrayed by his wife. He cannot trust anything she says because she's living in the land of unicorns and show ponies. She doesn't know what she wants let alone how to communicate it to grid. And you and I know that she has a huge amount of resentment built up over years. Do you think for one minute she's going to believe one word that comes out of grid's mouth? He needs to stop chasing her. He needs to stop monitoring her. He needs to stop trying to save his marriage because not only is it not with saving, its already dead and gone. A marriage is only as strong as it's weakest link. Grid needs to make sure he's not the weakest link in his new marriage be it with his current wife or the next one.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> I see a negligent husband.
> 
> 
> 
> Jury is still out on this one for me
Click to expand...


----------



## TeddieG

ButtPunch said:


> I do agree that the money could manipulate her back. I do not agree breaking out the spreadsheets,
> highlighter, and power point presentation are the way to go about it. She isn't going to see the light until
> her lawyer shows her the numbers then she will believe them.
> 
> Then what do you have. A wife who only stays with you because she can't afford to leave you. This happened
> to an employee of mine. Wife was miserable and stayed four years until she left him when she found a better provider (a Richie). Just imagine your sex life with a wife who is only there for your money. No one deserves this.
> 
> People like to think that their story is different or unique. Sadly, they are not. There are countless threads that mirror yours. Your wife will cheat again if she doesn't see severe consequences for the affair. Your wife will not "desire" you until she fears she has lost you. She will not respect you until you respect yourself. The best way to save your marriage is to not be afraid to lose it.
> 
> Grid....*Your wife is deep in this affair still. Even if they aren't talking she is still deep in it. Her mind is his. Her fantasies are his. Her desire still burns for him. Her resentment for you will not change the least while this is still happening. How do you break her of this? You don't because that would be a manipulation. However, I have seen the 180 and exposure do exactly what I'm talking about. Get the WS out of the fog. *
> 
> My advice...... Do the 180 for you and not for the expectation of getting your wife back.


Grid, these posts about where your wife is, and at the same time interacting with you at times somewhat normally, explain why I was so confused after h confessed his infidelity. He said he had cheated on me, but he was still here in the house, and was noncommital about our marriage but also noncommital about the affair. He kept saying he needed space and had never lived on his own so we got him an apartment. He'd already picked it out before we had the conversation (he was good at manipulating me into the direction of where he was planning to go anyway), and it was a little over a mile from her house. About six months in, I asked him if he was planning to divorce, and he said no, he wasn't, but if he decided he wanted to, he would. I'm thinking to myself, and you really think I have no say in the matter or no ability to decide to d? The weird thing was, he kept up the relationship with me, coming down for dates and get-togethers and shopping, and then would go right back to his apartment and dinners and swimming at the apartment pool with the OW and the kid. But when he moved out, it was interesting, because he had purchased a Queen Anne chair. He told me that was mine, because we'd had to sell my beautiful Queen Anne chair years earlier when we moved for one of his jobs. He was a mess. He had regrets about our life and I do recall about a month in, he called me blubbering into the phone crying, you don't deserve this, I don't know why I'm doing this to you. 

So I guess what I'm saying is, when my h exposed the affair himself, it continued, but he didn't, and wasn't ready to, cut ties with me. I haven't read all your thread but I want to get to the part where you talk about how your wife doesn't realize the degree to which divorce will change the dynamic and change the game (someone mentioned that in a recent thread; I'm up to 23 but read the later ones for the updates). My h has filed but is slowing realizing it means he can't show up here when he and OW have a fight and he thinks he wants to reconcile; it means he has to get his crap out of my house and to hers, which means having his guns, including pistols there, which he doesn't like to do because he thinks in a drunken stupor she'll use one on him. 

Now, my h DOES have mental health issues, so there's a variable there that doesn't apply to your wife, although in affair fog or the depression after an affair fails, it is hard to tell the difference. But during the time after he confessed to infidelity, he gave me the impression we were working on things and fixing things, but he was really deciding between us, and realizing that he was giving up something whichever way he chose. That's why I let HIM file. As someone said, in the affair fog, the significance of facing reality while the divorce rolls along isn't as potent as when the person has his or her back against the wall and is in a position where s/he must choose. I wanted that to be all on my h and in his time, when he was down the road enough to see what he had wrought and how he was going to get out of the situation. He is so passive that he is letting OW tell him how it is going to end, and I suspect he is chafing under her control and manipulation. But since they both like drama, and they don't have as much, if any, because he's not here and she's not screaming into the phone to get him back, we'll see how that works for them; they have only each other to deal with, and that will be boring (unless she continues to create her 12-year-old adolescent drunk drama), as well as very telling. 

Just some food for thought.


----------



## Chuck71

I'd also like to hear the ways the W was negligent as well......


----------



## ButtPunch

bfree said:


> Anon, I agree with much of your post and frankly jld and I agree on much as well. The biggest difference between what jld is suggesting and what others suggest is the impetus behind the changes grid should be looking to make. If he works on himself in the hopes that his wife will reverse course and cancel the divorce the changes he makes will not stick. The new grid will be superficial at best. As soon as he feels comfortable that his marriage is no longer in trouble he will most likely start backsliding since his goal has been achieved. If his wife continues on her current path and they do end up divorcing he will give up since his goal is no longer in reach. That is why he MUST change for himself with no expectations or goals other than self improvement. And when jld encourages him to talk to his wife I fear if he does so it will fall on deaf ears making him look needy and pathetic. She's no doubt heard it all before. All the promises, all the assurances, all the words. You know exactly what I'm talking about. In a relationship how many times is a complaint lodged and ignored. How many times are promises made and rarely kept. The time for taking is over. He has been betrayed by his wife. He cannot trust anything she says because she's living in the land of unicorns and show ponies. She doesn't know what she wants let alone how to communicate it to grid. And you and I know that she has a huge amount of resentment built up over years. Do you think for one minute she's going to believe one word that comes out of grid's mouth? He needs to stop chasing her. He needs to stop monitoring her. He needs to stop trying to save his marriage because not only is it not with saving, its already dead and gone. A marriage is only as strong as it's weakest link. Grid needs to make sure he's not the weakest link in his new marriage be it with his current wife or the next one.


I agree completely. This sums up what I am trying to say. I am an engineer by profession so communication is not my best attribute. Thanks bfree for saying what I haven't been able too.


----------



## jld

Well, bfree, I am more optimistic. I think his sincerely listening to her plus sincerely working to improve his own character would turn their marriage around.

I absolutely think this marriage can be saved. That is my goal, not just some generic consolation prize of becoming a better man regardless of whatever happens.

I am looking at you, grid. You can do this.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

ButtPunch said:


> Something ain't right here.


No, she has a completely different belief system which is extremely and strongly tied to religion. Not a knock, but it is a very traditionalist view. I'd use another word, but it would be taken the wrong way. If you haven't encountered it or studied the thinking it comes off as very negative and inflexible.


----------



## ButtPunch

phillybeffandswiss said:


> No, she has a completely different belief system which is extremely and strongly tied to religion. Not a knock, but it is a very traditionalist view. I'd use another word, but it would be taken the wrong way. If you haven't encountered it or studied the thinking it comes off as very negative and inflexible.


Doesn't she understand I want the same thing as she does. I want Grid to save himself first and then the marriage (if the opportunity presents itself).


----------



## bfree

ButtPunch said:


> I agree completely. This sums up what I am trying to say. I am an engineer by profession so communication is not my best attribute. Thanks bfree for saying what I haven't been able too.


I just wish I corrected the typos before I sent it. Lol


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> Well, bfree, I am more optimistic. I think his sincerely listening to her plus sincerely working to improve his own character would turn their marriage around.
> 
> I absolutely think this marriage can be saved. That is my goal, not just some generic consolation prize of becoming a better man regardless of whatever happens.
> 
> I am looking at you, grid. You can do this.


Actually I'm fairly optimistic myself but grid's attitude has to be correctly aligned for him to lead her back to the marriage. If he is focused on her or the marriage he'll come off as weak, a follower not a leader. He needs to completely focus on being the best man he can be and men lead by actions not empty words which is what grid's wife has been getting. Let me ask you this. Don't you think she's heard "I'm sorry, it won't happen again" a million times? Don't you think she's complained and received assurances things would improve a million more? Why would this time be any different in her mind? Because this time he really means it?


----------



## farsidejunky

bfree said:


> Anon, I agree with much of your post and frankly jld and I agree on much as well. The biggest difference between what jld is suggesting and what others suggest is the impetus behind the changes grid should be looking to make. If he works on himself in the hopes that his wife will reverse course and cancel the divorce the changes he makes will not stick. The new grid will be superficial at best. As soon as he feels comfortable that his marriage is no longer in trouble he will most likely start backsliding since his goal has been achieved. If his wife continues on her current path and they do end up divorcing he will give up since his goal is no longer in reach. That is why he MUST change for himself with no expectations or goals other than self improvement. And when jld encourages him to talk to his wife I fear if he does so it will fall on deaf ears making him look needy and pathetic. She's no doubt heard it all before. All the promises, all the assurances, all the words. You know exactly what I'm talking about. In a relationship how many times is a complaint lodged and ignored. How many times are promises made and rarely kept. The time for taking is over. He has been betrayed by his wife. He cannot trust anything she says because she's living in the land of unicorns and show ponies. She doesn't know what she wants let alone how to communicate it to grid. And you and I know that she has a huge amount of resentment built up over years. Do you think for one minute she's going to believe one word that comes out of grid's mouth? He needs to stop chasing her. He needs to stop monitoring her. He needs to stop trying to save his marriage because not only is it not with saving, its already dead and gone. A marriage is only as strong as it's weakest link. Grid needs to make sure he's not the weakest link in his new marriage be it with his current wife or the next one.


QFT.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

ButtPunch said:


> Doesn't she understand I want the same thing as she does. I want Grid to save himself first and then the marriage (if the opportunity presents itself).


There are motives at play, which you may not grasp or understand. You want the same outcome, which isn't the same as wanting the same thing. Semantics.


----------



## ButtPunch

bfree said:


> Actually I'm fairly optimistic myself but grid's attitude has to be correctly aligned for him to lead her back to the marriage. If he is focused on her or the marriage he'll come off as weak, a follower not a leader. He needs to completely focus on being the best man he can be and men lead by actions not empty words which is what grid's wife has been getting. Let me ask you this. Don't you think she's heard "I'm sorry, it won't happen again" a million times? Don't you think she's complained and received assurances things would improve a million more? Why would this time be any different in her mind? Because this time he really means it?


I agree.

This is assuming he is a negligent husband and hasn't been gaslighted into thinking he's one.


----------



## Anon Pink

@bfree, totally agree. Yes I have have heard it all before. If he isn't making sincere changes in himself of course his marriage is doomed, as is every future relationship because being a d!ck generally makes women not like you, even if they do like your d!ck. 

My understanding is that he is currently detached from the outcome. This puts him in a good position to have those sincere talks so long as he remains calm and civil. 

Also agree he should stop chasing her and stop trying to save his marriage. But he should not stop trying to be a good man and a good man own his fvck ups. Because if nothing else, they still have to parent together.

No she has no idea what she wants and that's okay. Last January when we went to Retrouvaille I didn't want to stay married. I couldn't see ever coming back because I didn't believe that "this time....bla bla bla better, for real." The only thing I could promise my husband was that I would be totally honest and not fake it till we made it. Now he was coming from a place of sincerity and so was I. We still have bumps but now when I throw a vase at him he catches it! 

Our first marriage died about 5 years in. Our second marriage died last year. Now we're on our third marriage and this time I think we'll get it right.


----------



## jld

bfree said:


> Actually I'm fairly optimistic myself but grid's attitude has to be correctly aligned for him to lead her back to the marriage. If he is focused on her or the marriage he'll come off as weak, a follower not a leader. He needs to completely focus on being the best man he can be and men lead by actions not empty words which is what grid's wife has been getting. Let me ask you this. Don't you think she's heard "I'm sorry, it won't happen again" a million times? Don't you think she's complained and received assurances things would improve a million more? Why would this time be any different in her mind? Because this time he really means it?


I am asking him to listen to her, bfree. He himself may not need to use many words at all.

His getting his emotions under control and backing off the divorce would say a lot to her, as would starting to financially discipline himself.

A lot of you seem to be projecting NG onto grid, when I am not sure it is the case. The only neediness I see in him is wanting assurance from his wife, when he should be seeking to reassure _her_ that he is going to be worth staying with.


----------



## FeministInPink

phillybeffandswiss said:


> No, she has a completely different belief system which is extremely and strongly tied to religion. Not a knock, but it is a very traditionalist view. I'd use another word, but it would be taken the wrong way. If you haven't encountered it or studied the thinking it comes off as very negative and inflexible.


She has a religious mindset that somehow allows her to violate her marriage vows and makes her sin ok, as long as she thinks it is justified. :/

Pretty strange belief system, if you ask me.


----------



## jld

FeministInPink said:


> She has a religious mindset that somehow allows her to violate her marriage vows and makes her sin ok, as long as she thinks it is justified. :/
> 
> Pretty strange belief system, if you ask me.


She knows it's wrong, FIP. She is trying to get out of it. And grid could be a big help to her.


----------



## FeministInPink

ButtPunch said:


> I agree.
> 
> This is assuming he is a negligent husband and hasn't been gaslighted into thinking he's one.


This has been nagging me this entire thread. I'm not entirely convinced that he was as bad a husband as all that. Maybe he was, I don't know. 

But part of me can't help but ask, was Gridcom _really_ that bad of a husband, or did she just convince him that he was?


----------



## Anon Pink

FeministInPink said:


> This has been nagging me this entire thread. I'm not entirely convinced that he was as bad a husband as all that. Maybe he was, I don't know.
> 
> But part of me can't help but ask, was Gridcom _really_ that bad of a husband, or did she just convince him that he was?


At some point early in the thread grid talked about all the fights they've had during which his wife told him she was miserable and things had to change and told him what specifically. And he pretty much ignored it. I can relate to that. I can picture the sneer, I can hear the minimizing, the invalidating, the excusing...and then continuing to do the same sh!t he's been doing all along.


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> I am asking him to listen to her, bfree. He himself may not need to use many words at all.
> 
> His getting his emotions under control and backing off the divorce would say a lot to her, as would starting to financially discipline himself.
> 
> A lot of you seem to be projecting NG onto grid, when I am not sure it is the case. The only neediness I see in him is wanting assurance from his wife, when he should be seeking to reassure _her_ that he is going to be worth staying with.


If he dedicates himself to making himself the best man he can be his wife will come to him. THEN they can have those conversations because she will have initiated them. If he goes to her he's forcing those talks onto her and she's heard it all before. Agreed he needs to get his emotions under control and by detaching from any set outcome he can do that. He will not nor should he expect to receive any assurances from his wife nor should he give her any assurances other than to show her (not tell her) that he's a much better man and will continue to grow as a man and a person.

When my wife does something that irks me I don't yell, I don't even point it out. I get quiet. I don't ignore her. I don't treat her badly. I just don't engage as enthusiastically as I normally do. Guess what? She comes to me and then we talk. I'm not foisting my emotional baggage onto her. I'm not bashing her. Therefore she doesn't get defensive. And don't worry, the same happens when she is upset with me so don't go claiming I'm all chauvinistic and stuff. (Insert smiley wink here)

The best thing grid can do right now is to detach, become stoic and let the chips fall where they may. If he does that I guarantee his wife will come to him. It might not be enough to save the marriage. We don't know the level of his wife's resentment nor do we know where grid's infidelity roller coaster will finally stop. But I guarantee that conversation will happen and then the door will crack open just a little for them to both walk through.


----------



## Anon Pink

During our Retrouvaille weekend, there was a turning point for me. When my husband admitted to the ways he had manipulated me to act crazy. I never realized that was intentional until he admitted it. That was when I knew he was for real this time.


----------



## ButtPunch

FeministInPink said:


> This has been nagging me this entire thread. I'm not entirely convinced that he was as bad a husband as all that. Maybe he was, I don't know.
> 
> But part of me can't help but ask, was Gridcom _really_ that bad of a husband, or did she just convince him that he was?


I wish I had a dollar for every infidelity thread that started out with the BS blaming himself. When, in reality, the BS has little impact on the WS decision making. People like to think they are part of a situation when a lot of times they are not.


----------



## bfree

Anon Pink said:


> During our Retrouvaille weekend, there was a turning point for me. When my husband admitted to the ways he had manipulated me to act crazy. I never realized that was intentional until he admitted it. That was when I knew he was for real this time.


That was a controlled safe environment so obviously he felt comfortable enough to reveal that and you were able to digest that new information knowing you were safe as well. I pray grid and his wife get to a similar place but they both have to be receptive.


----------



## ButtPunch

Anon Pink said:


> At some point early in the thread grid talked about all the fights they've had during which his wife told him she was miserable and things had to change and told him what specifically. And he pretty much ignored it. I can relate to that. I can picture the sneer, I can hear the minimizing, the invalidating, the excusing...and then continuing to do the same sh!t he's been doing all along.


Considering they are $70K in debt, I bet they had some epic fights. Your right I can just see her minimizing, invalidating him. Still no excuse to cheat.


----------



## FeministInPink

Anon Pink said:


> At some point early in the thread grid talked about all the fights they've had during which his wife told him she was miserable and things had to change and told him what specifically. And he pretty much ignored it. I can relate to that. I can picture the sneer, I can hear the minimizing, the invalidating, the excusing...and then continuing to do the same sh!t he's been doing all along.


Right, I get that. And I can relate, as well. 

But... were her complaints, and her instructions to him, legitimate? THAT's what I'm curious about. 

There's a difference between "You ignore my needs and neglect me" and "You won't bow to my every whim and notion."

And maybe I missed it, because there are so many pages to this thread...


----------



## ButtPunch

bfree said:


> That was a controlled safe environment so obviously he felt comfortable enough to reveal that and you were able to digest that new information knowing you were safe as well. I pray grid and his wife get to a similar place but they both have to be receptive.


They aren't eligible because of the AP. Retro knows you can't fix a marriage with 3 people in it.


----------



## jld

bfree said:


> That was a controlled safe environment so obviously he felt comfortable enough to reveal that and you were able to digest that new information knowing you were safe as well. I pray grid and his wife get to a similar place but they both have to be receptive.


He can do a lot to influence her receptivity.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

FeministInPink said:


> Right, I get that. And I can relate, as well.
> 
> But... were her complaints, and her instructions to him, legitimate? THAT's what I'm curious about.
> 
> There's a difference between "You ignore my needs and neglect me" and "You won't bow to my every whim and notion."
> 
> And maybe I missed it, because there are so many pages to this thread...


Go back and read it yourself FiP, then draw your own conclusions, This thread is triggering a ton of projection for some posters.


Edit:
I do not mean it as if you didn't read the thread. His behavior has been retold and altered as the thread has grown.


----------



## FeministInPink

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Go back and read it yourself FiP, then draw your own conclusions, This thread is triggering a ton of projection for some posters.
> 
> 
> Edit:
> I do not mean it as if you didn't read the thread. His behavior has been retold and altered as the thread has grown.


No, I totally get what you're saying. And that's why I bring it up. I see a lot of projection going on here, and I don't think that always translates into the best advice.


----------



## jld

FeministInPink said:


> No, I totally get what you're saying. And that's why I bring it up. I see a lot of projection going on here, and I don't think that always translates into the best advice.


I don't think there is anyone who is _not_ projecting here. It is common when people give advice.


----------



## tech-novelist

jld said:


> I don't think there is anyone who is _not_ projecting here. It is common when people give advice.


I'm not projecting. You're projecting! >


----------



## turnera

jld said:


> I am asking him to listen to her, bfree. He himself may not need to use many words at all.


He IS listening to her! He's done nothing BUT listen to her since this started. All we're suggesting is that along with listening, he put ONE rule in place: no contact with other men as long as we're together and working on things. Not so much to ask, I'd think.


----------



## jld

technovelist said:


> I'm not projecting. You're projecting! >


Back atcha! >


----------



## cbnero

I think the "bad husband" thing is crap. He isn't responsible for her happiness. If he was, then he would also be responsible for her unhappiness. Talk about insane expectations.

100% guaranteed she dumped on him, he dumped on himself, and the all the women who love to sit with their girlfriends and hate on men saw an opportunity to dump on grid as well.

You are sentencing him after condensing his entire relationship into a few posts. Then comes the "well he said he was a bad husband" argument. Yeah well he only said that because his ex projected as much sh!t onto him as she could and he was very hurt, wounded, and desperate to repair his marriage. 

Been there, done that. Grid - everyone here could do a better job of improving themselves. You already realize your faults. Deal with them, improve, and move onto the real issue. Your wife betrayed you and filed for divorce. She is untrustworthy and doesn't have your daughter's best interest in mind. She has her own interests in mind. So, deal with it accordingly.


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> He IS listening to her! He's done nothing BUT listen to her since this started. All we're suggesting is that along with listening, he put ONE rule in place:* no contact with other men *as long as we're together and working on things. Not so much to ask, I'd think.


And to me, that is basically what is happening.


----------



## TeddieG

jld said:


> And to me, that is basically what is happening.


How do you know that, jld? That's the question.


----------



## jld

Well, grid, I don't think it has to come to divorce. My friends and I are offering you a way out of it that could eliminate any further legal bills, get your finances in order, restore your wife's trust, and restabilize life for your kids.

But it is obviously up to you which path you will choose.


----------



## LongWalk

BP, you write very clearly and don't waste words. You leave empty space that people have think to fill in. BFF simply took the ball and ran for a first down and more.

Teddie catches a pass for a long gain with every post. The point about distinguishing between mental illness and normalcy is right on. A guy with a degree of Asperger's can be a super mess relationship wise but be a good IT manager in a big corporation where being a geek and following policies and rules to the letter is seen as loyalty. The dude executes and delivers where emotional subtlety is actually a liability. The same characteristics might also make the guy a great non com in desperate situation. The captain tells him you have machine guns and mortar, don't let the enemy come through. No surrender until all your ammo is gone. He will buckle down and do it where more emotional men will crumble.

On CWI people sometimes say that the wayward is the enemy. This shows how infidelity creates emotions close to mental illness. In Sweden there was controversy over a policeman who slugged his wife hard in the shoulder when he she tried to take the telephone away from him when he was telling his wife's lover, their kids' judo coach to stop fvcking his wife. In Sweden, the husband's conviction for assault wavered between two degrees. I don't know the legal technicalities but let's say one was a misdemeanor and the other a felony. If the court had nailed him for the felony charge, his career as a policemen would have been over. The woman tried to change her story to say she had been wearing high heels and fell down. But the first version was the true one.

The court, though, down graded the conviction to the misdemeanor because he had been provoked by the knowledge of the fornication exploding in his brain. Feminist commentators went wild for a couple of days denouncing the court's reasoning. I think it made sense. A man or woman is in a state of shock. It is like mental illness. People cannot eat or sleep.

In Sweden, salacious stories like this are covered without pictures of faces or names. However, the un PC free speech forums quickly get copies of the judgments and put the Facebook links up. Amazingly the remorseful WW of the policeman's photos were up for the world to see. You could see that she was good looking and narcissistic. It was telling that her timeline included very little family. It was very me, me, me. One of the few pictures of the husband she posted was unflattering. They were on vacation in the US and he appeared in in fleece with a gut while all her photos showed her like a single woman who spend time in the gym. What about the post family meltdown timeline?

Suddenly her FB was full of German shepherds, not family dogs but police dogs. Suddenly I realized that her BH was a K-9 officer. Her statement of reconciliation was to post five photos of his dog. Was this woman clinically mentally ill? Probably not, but her judgment was borderline narcissistic. She had an affair with her two children's judo coach. In the case of such a family jld type advice is useless. This woman got reality when the police arrested her husband and she was witnessing against him and then later deciding to cook up a story to undo the damage. Even if the newspaper did not name and shame her and embarrass her family, locally everyone knew. Talk about pain. For this couple's marriage to become happy, the wife's remorse would have to be backed up by insight. For the husband to simply be kind to her would be a delusion. At the very least, he would feel like a loser. The affirmation of his marriage were pictures of the dogs that would take bullets for him.

Gridcom has portrayed his wife, but we are really guessing about the workings of her mind. We know she loves music. She is sensitive, passionate, loves cookings, cares about others. We don't know her FOO issues. However, we do know that when jld speaks, Grid hears her advocate. Is she like jld?

If she is like jld, does doing what jld recommends tactically astute? Another way to ask the question: is jld's description of Dug accurate? Never have I got the impression that Dug is some kind beta guy. I don't think he is at all. When he has come on to TAM he speaks clearly without nice guy BS. So Grid, act like Dug, don't do what his wife recommends.

Mrs Grid filed for divorce, but it seems like all she did was create an empty digital manila folder. Who is going put in the contents that are necessary before the court will grant a divorce? Who is going to drive this?


----------



## jld

LW. Dug would be way harder on Grid than I have been, trust me.


----------



## cbnero

Or maybe he should skip work, ignore the realities of everything taking place around him, and just focus on his golf game and I'm positive he can make the PGA tour.

Both are as far fetched. If he makes the PGA he can at least wear a snazzy golf shirt. But if he decides to go your route he can wear a bunch of shirts with Plan B on the back.

Seems to me she is the one leaving this marriage. If she wants back, maybe she needs to be the one doing the work and praying grid gives her another chance.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Funny, I do not like the alpha/beta dichotomy because it doesn't really exist in my eyes. People may skew more one way, but in other areas they lean in the opposite direction. Some things Dug posts and says are alpha others are completely and utterly beta. So, he is human and we can't draw any hard line conclusion on how he is in real life.

Just like we do with threads, unless the spouse regularly posts, I take all comments about the other spouse with a grain of salt. Yes, Dug posts, but it is very interesting how his style differs when he isn't defending his wife and posts on his own.


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> And to me, that is basically what is happening.


She is still working with her affair partner. You don't consider that a problem?


----------



## jld

bfree said:


> She is still working with her affair partner. You don't consider that a problem?


Not to the degree that others seem to.

I think making it warm and safe for her to trust in grid is going to make that AP less and less appealing.

Idk. I just do not have the fear of the AP that others seem to. 

I do fear grid's throwing away his opportunities to connect with her, though. That is the real risk.


----------



## farsidejunky

Should alcoholics work in a liquor store? 

Sure, maybe after several years of sobriety.

How about during detox?


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> Not to the degree that others seem to.
> 
> I think making it warm and safe for her to trust in grid is going to make that AP less and less appealing.
> 
> Idk. I just do not have the fear of the AP that others seem to.
> 
> I do fear grid's throwing away his opportunities to connect with her, though. That is the real risk.


It is not fear from me. I will not compete with another man for a woman.

If she is indecisive, I make that decision for her. I value myself too much to do anything else.


----------



## LongWalk

Quote:
Originally Posted by turnera View Post


> He IS listening to her! He's done nothing BUT listen to her since this started. All we're suggesting is that along with listening, he put ONE rule in place: no contact with other men as long as we're together and working on things. Not so much to ask, I'd think.


Jld replied


> And to me, that is basically what is happening.



TeddieG asked again



> How do you know that, jld? That's the question.


:iagree:

jld,

Your signature box quote is a good one but it is only partially true.



> One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man


If a woman has been PMSing and giving her husband all sorts of hell, saying cruel shyte, cools off and a couple of days later is very loving and appreciative of him and appologizes, the Deida reply from the husband is just to pause, take a long sip of scotch before replying:



> I knew you didn't mean it.


The problem here is something different, Grid's wife has been in love with another man for a year. He doesn't know how many times they whispered in each other's ears, "that was great, what a shame we have to go home now."

Even if they are not sneaking in quickies at work, OM has kept the memory of the hot sex alive with the songs. It would be entirely in character for him to put flowers by door of her building or send her chocolate in the company post.

All that Grid knows is that she filed for divorce and believes cheating is part of human nature.


----------



## jld

You are giving her way too much power, LW. She simply is *not* that powerful.

I feel like there is a lot of fear of this woman. I don't understand it.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> You are giving her way too much power, LW. She simply is *not* that powerful.
> 
> I feel like there is a lot of fear of this woman. I don't understand it.


Projection.


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> Not to the degree that others seem to.
> 
> I think making it warm and safe for her to trust in grid is going to make that AP less and less appealing.
> 
> Idk. I just do not have the fear of the AP that others seem to.
> 
> I do fear grid's throwing away his opportunities to connect with her, though. That is the real risk.


Well I don't think his wife chumming around with her lover is going to motivate grid very much. Plus it seems to be a problem for the counseling place that anon went to with her husband. So maybe it should be more of a problem to you than it is?

What you need to understand is that so long as she is still in contact with her lover she is not going to parse any of her emotional availability to grid. Jld, I want you to try something. I want you to stand in front of Dug. Neither of you say or do anything. Just look at each other. Now try to feel absolutely nothing. No love, no emotion, nothing. Impossible right? That is the same dynamic that occurs when grid's wife sees her lover. Now can you imagine feeling what you feel when you look at Dug and trying to simultaneously feel the same love and emotion for another man? That's what you're asking grid's wife to do. It's not going to happen. This is why I advise grid to detach, work on himself and forget placing any expectations into the mix. So that when she does happen to glance at him she's going to see a different man and get curious. That's when he will have her attention. That's when they can have THE TALK. That's when all this will matter.


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> You are giving her way too much power, LW. She simply is *not* that powerful.
> 
> I feel like there is a lot of fear of this woman. I don't understand it.


She has all the power in the world over her own life and choices. Grid cannot make her see, hear or do anything. You believe we are giving her too much power? I believe you are doing a disservice to her and a disservice to all women by not giving her any power at all.


----------



## truster

It seems like the debate raging on here must be very common.

How do most of these stories play out? If one wasn't emotionally invested, and just wanted to bet their life savings on the outcome, what would be the smart bet, based on these previous outcomes?


----------



## jld

bfree said:


> She has all the power in the world over her own life and choices. Grid cannot make her see, hear or do anything. You believe we are giving her too much power? I believe you are doing a disservice to her and a disservice to all women by not giving her any power at all.


She has the power of response. Which is heavily influenced by the actions of her husband. 

Some women are initiators more than responders. With that kind of woman, I might have different advice for grid.

Though, I am not really well-versed in that sort of dynamic, so might not say anything.


----------



## jld

truster said:


> It seems like the debate raging on here must be very common.
> 
> How do most of these stories play out? If one wasn't emotionally invested, and just wanted to bet their life savings on the outcome, what would be the smart bet, based on these previous outcomes?


To me it all depends on how much emotional and mental strength grid has or is willing to develop. 

If he can discipline himself with money and his emotions, while reaching out to her to earn her trust, I think this marriage will become stronger than either of them could have ever imagined it being.

If he gives in to fear and neediness, it will probably go down the tubes.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

His marriage is already down the tubes. He needs to start a new one, with or without her, not plumb the depth for the old one.


----------



## bfree

Jld, when I look into my wife's eyes you don't exist. Anon doesn't exist. No other woman in the world exists. This is what grid's wife feels when she looks at the one she loves, and it's not grid, at least not now. You're asking her to do something you yourself couldn't do, something I couldn't do. Now that can change and I want grid to be ready when it does.

And frankly if my wife read what you wrote about grid's wife and women in general she'd probably question your gender. Lol


----------



## LongWalk

I will bet a bitcoin that after a late November snow storm in New York, Gridcom's wife will ask him to put winter tires on her car.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

bfree said:


> Jld, when I look into my wife's eyes you don't exist. Anon doesn't exist. No other woman in the world exists. This is what grid's wife feels when she looks at the one she loves, and it's not grid, at least not now. You're asking her to do something you yourself couldn't do, something I couldn't do. Now that can change and I want grid to be ready when it does.
> 
> And frankly if my wife read what you wrote about grid's wife and women in general she'd probably question your gender. Lol


I am not asking her to do anything. I am focused on the one who I think has the best chance of improving things.


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> I am not asking her to do anything. I am focused on the one who I think has the best chance of improving things.


If you chase me I run. If you talk to me when I don't want to listen I ignore you. If you touch me and I don't welcome it I pull away. Grid does indeed need to work on himself but if his wife is otherwise engaged emotionally with another there is little he can do but clean up his own side of the street and wait for an opening.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> I am not asking her to do anything.


Exactly.


----------



## jld

bfree said:


> If you chase me I run. If you talk to me when I don't want to listen I ignore you. If you touch me and I don't welcome it I pull away. Grid does indeed need to work on himself but if his wife is otherwise engaged emotionally with another there is little he can do but clean up his own side of the street and wait for an opening.


I think she is more open than you think.

Honestly, so much defeatism in this thread.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> Honestly, so much defeatism in this thread.


Disrespectful judgement.


----------



## jld

It is my opinion, far.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> It is my opinion, far.


Justification for a disrespectful judgment.


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> I think she is more open than you think.
> 
> Honestly, so much defeatism in this thread.


Speculation? Evidence? Until she disengages from her lover I'm hard pressed to find any openness.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Justification for a disrespectful judgment.


You don't want me to see what I read as defeatism. Is that correct?


----------



## jld

bfree said:


> Speculation? Evidence? Until she disengages from her lover I'm hard pressed to find any openness.


I think she has disengaged a great deal. 

Things do not have to be easy to be workable.


----------



## Evinrude58

Anon Pink said:


> Behaving in a way to prevent becoming a cuckold is weakness because it is motivated by fear of hurt.
> 
> Anyone can cheat. Anyone. If the conditions are right, anyone can cheat. Once you accept that you understand that the competition for this partner never ends. Give your spouse your very best. That's all anyone can do. If your very best isn't enough, then it's time to move on. Grid hasn't given her his very best.
> 
> I make a point of telling my husband every time I notice I am getting attention from other men. Keeps him on his toes. Reminds him he isn't the only fish out there and if he wants me he needs to give his best. Most of you, I suspect, would be terribly threatened by that. My husband isn't. That's attractive to me.


I think that is downright mean, but whatever works....
I can see lots of women telling a man that does that to his lady what an absolute a-hole he is and getting all kinds of kudos from her girlfriends when she tells him so. I do understand the justification for it, just think that it's not the right thing to do. Then again, I'm divorced-- what do I know..


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> You don't want me to see what I read as defeatism. Is that correct?


No. I think it appropriate to not assume this is defeatism. I see it differently.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> No. I think it appropriate to not assume this is defeatism. I see it differently.


_"Defeatism is the acceptance of defeat without struggle, often with negative connotations. It can be linked to pessimism in psychology."_

That is what I see here, far. Have to call it like I see it.


----------



## convert

jld said:


> To me it all depends on *how much* *emotional and mental strength grid has* or is willing to develop.
> 
> If he can discipline himself with money and his emotions, while reaching out to her to earn her trust, I think this marriage will become stronger than either of them could have ever imagined it being.
> 
> If he gives in to fear and neediness, it will probably go down the tubes.


maybe so

but right now grid's emotional and mental strength is being stretched to the max and I worry about him.

JLD, if I recall right you and Doug have been married for like 36 years or something so you must being doing something right or you are a Stephord wife:wink2:, 
anyway Grid values you input


----------



## cbnero

I'm getting gas with all this nonsense. I thought this was about Grid. Not a theoretical course at a community college.

Grid's wife sucks. He has every right to find a new one. And luckily for him there are a lot of vaginas in this world.

That is all.


----------



## truster

jld said:


> To me it all depends on how much emotional and mental strength grid has or is willing to develop.
> 
> If he can discipline himself with money and his emotions, while reaching out to her to earn her trust, I think this marriage will become stronger than either of them could have ever imagined it being.
> 
> If he gives in to fear and neediness, it will probably go down the tubes.


OK, that's one opinion, and as such it's no more or less valid than all the other opinions here. But what if we approach this 'scientifically'? What if we look at the wealth of stories here that shared this debate, and look at the outcomes?

If someone grabbed the last 5-10 threads where this happened and shared the outcome, I think we'd get a much clearer picture as to what the smartest move was, versus continually smashing our opinions together.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

bfree said:


> Grid does indeed need to work on himself but if his wife is otherwise engaged emotionally with another there is little he can do but clean up his own side of the street and wait for an opening.


Put simply, it is the old phrase "fallen on deaf ears."
She is emotionally deaf to grid right now. How do you agree to MC while simultaneously divorcing? We've all read it or witnessed it in real life. It is the desperate act of a spouse washing away guilt. 

Wife: See, I went to MC in an attempt to help my spouse move on. I am a really nice person. I was easing him into the transition.

It isn't a cry for help, it is an attempt to get this moving along faster. Yes, I am going by all of her actions:
Filing.
Reading the song list.
Still at the same job.
Admitting to being cordial if they run into each other.
Lying.

She's keeping her plan B ready and grid needs to be Plan A for himself. If she decides to tag along, he'll be mentally ready to say yes or no and not be chasing her "for the kids."


----------



## jld

convert said:


> maybe so
> 
> but right now grid's emotional and mental strength is being stretched to the max and I worry about him.
> 
> JLD, if I recall right you and Doug have been married for like 36 years or something so you must being doing something right or you are a Stephord wife:wink2:,
> anyway Grid values you input


I think grid is going to be okay. He has his ups and downs, but that is surely normal. He has been through a lot. And it is through being challenged to do hard things that he can grow.

Only married 21 years here.


----------



## jld

truster said:


> OK, that's one opinion, and as such it's no more or less valid than all the other opinions here. But what if we approach this 'scientifically'? What if we look at the wealth of stories here that shared this debate, and look at the outcomes?
> 
> If someone grabbed the last 5-10 threads where this happened and shared the outcome, I think we'd get a much clearer picture as to what the smartest move was, versus continually smashing our opinions together.


Someone has to break out at some point, truster. 

It just takes some courage and perseverance.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> _"Defeatism is the acceptance of defeat without struggle, often with negative connotations. It can be linked to pessimism in psychology."_
> 
> That is what I see here, far. Have to call it like I see it.


Disrespectful judgement.

We have different definitions of victory.

But you did not ask that.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Disrespectful judgement.
> 
> We have different definitions of victory.
> 
> But you did not ask that.


Would you like to share your definition of victory?


----------



## ButtPunch

I agree with FSJ. Who is defeated? There are no winners or losers. It just is what it is.
Quit trying to make some woman love somebody else. To me that's about the best reason to get a divorce there is and if they do divorce it's not the end of the world.

This is not a game.


----------



## truster

jld said:


> Someone has to break out at some point, truster.
> 
> It just takes some courage and perseverance.


Still, I think that out of respect for grid, he should get objective information about any advice if it is available. To say "Here is opinion A, and here is opinion B" is not as useful in decision making as saying "Here is opinion A, it has worked 19 out of 20 times in the past; Here is opinion B, it has worked 1 out of 20 times in the past."

People are still capable of ignoring the base rate of success (hence why the 'base rate fallacy' is one of the more well-known rational failure modes), but we owe it to them to at least present them with the information.


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> I agree with FSJ. Who is defeated? There are no winners or losers. It just is what it is.
> Quit trying to make some woman love somebody else.


When there are children involved, I think all reasonable efforts should be made to restore the marriage. 

I really think this could be turned around. I just do not see anything that could not be overcome, and that would not ultimately help both grid and his wife grow.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> Would you like to share your definition of victory?


My definition of victory is that grid become the very best man that he can while hopefully preserving his marriage.

I suspect we have similar hopes.

I am simply of the opinion that if I were in his shoes, I would proceed full speed ahead with what she has asked for, which is the divorce. I have no interest in keeping a woman who has no interest in me.

I see victory in either outcome.


----------



## jld

truster said:


> Still, I think that out of respect for grid, he should get objective information about any advice if it is available. To say "Here is opinion A, and here is opinion B" is not as useful in decision making as saying "Here is opinion A, it has worked 19 out of 20 times in the past; Here is opinion B, it has worked 1 out of 20 times in the past."
> 
> People are still capable of ignoring the base rate of success (hence why the 'base rate fallacy' is one of the more well-known rational failure modes), but we owe it to them to at least present them with the information.


He is going to do whatever he wants to do, truster. No one is going to stop that.

If I were determined to achieve something, I don't think I would worry about how many people had failed before me.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> When there are children involved, I think all reasonable efforts should be made to restore the marriage.
> 
> I really think this could be turned around. I just do not see anything that could not be overcome, and that would not ultimately help both grid and his wife grow.


I love the word reasonable. Nice, clear, concise, zero room for latitude right?

That latitude within reasonable is where we disagree, and you label it defeatist.

That is why it's a disrespectful judgment.


----------



## Evinrude58

jld said:


> Well, grid, I don't think it has to come to divorce. My friends and I are offering you a way out of it that could eliminate any further legal bills, get your finances in order, restore your wife's trust, and restabilize life for your kids.
> 
> But it is obviously up to you which path you will choose.


JLD, I believe you to be a very compassionate and introspective person, I just don't believe your advice is good for him in this case. If Grid drags his feet on this divorce until she is finally able to absolve herself of guilt for HER part of this divorce, he is going to suffer financially because of a legal system slanted toward women (at least here in my state). He should divorce her as soon as possible in order to get at least close to an equitable solution.

I, too, think there's a possibility for a reconciliation. But unlike you, I think it has to be post-divorce. I think based on Grid's statements that she may possibly have broken off most contact with this guy, but her mind is still stuck on him and may be until they are divorced and she moves in with him and sees the "REAL" person he is. I don't believe Grid has been that bad of a husband, in spite of what he says. I think both of them, based on the 70k debt which he says is BOTH of theirs, are guilty of not being as involved with one another's lives, and emotions as they should have been. SHE, however, is guilty of slaying her love for him by giving her mind and emotions to another man. What you are asking is that he win her back by behavior that is both healthy and strong. However, the person he is trying to win back is NOT in a healthy state of mind. How can that work? And from experience (you can call that projection, I won't deny), I don't believe Grid is capable of turning off the love he has for her and treating her like like he is a person that is working on himself and is willing to accept whatever happens. I hope he is, just don't totally believe it.
SOmething has to happen to put the crunch on her feelings for this other man. I think a HEALTHY dose of reality, which a divorce would initiate, is the only solution for that.

I was unable to keep my family together, in spite of my best efforts. I realize that my level of "strength" was not nearly as high as some. But I still to this day do not know how one can change the mind of a person who has killed their love for someone by giving it to someone else. Can it be done by any means? 

She has to change her own mind. He can't. 
JMO

If she does, I think Grid is capable of being the husband that this woman always wanted. However, I don't know if she'll ever be the wife he always wanted again. Mine isn't-- I'll never forget the betrayal and lack of character.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> My definition of victory is that grid become the very best man that he can while hopefully preserving his marriage.
> 
> I suspect we have similar hopes.
> 
> I am simply of the opinion that if I were in his shoes, I would proceed full speed ahead with what she has asked for, which is the divorce. I have no interest in keeping a woman who has no interest in me.
> 
> I see victory in either outcome.


Thanks for sharing your thoughts, far.

I hope grid will hear past her words, and really listen to what may be in her heart.


----------



## turnera

Exactly what he has BEEN doing!


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> I love the word reasonable. Nice, clear, concise, zero room for latitude right?
> 
> That latitude within reasonable is where we disagree, and you label it defeatist.
> 
> That is why it's a disrespectful judgment.


I guess we see it differently, far.


----------



## jld

I think he can do it, evinrude. I think with empathy and humility, he can absolutely do it.

And divorces are expensive. This should never have even gotten that far.


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> I think she has disengaged a great deal.
> 
> Things do not have to be easy to be workable.


One cannot be "a little bit" pregnant. No contact does not mean some contact. Disengaged means disengaged, not semi-engaged.

You used the key word...work. They both must be willing to work at reconciliation, not just grid. Right now I see a woman who is not only unwilling to do any work, she is unwilling to do the bare minimum and give up her lover. She might wish for this all to go away but wishing for something doesn't make it so. My wife wishes I wasn't so perfect so she'd seem better by comparison. But some things are not meant to be.


----------



## jld

bfree said:


> One cannot be "a little bit" pregnant. No contact does not mean some contact. Disengaged means disengaged, not semi-engaged.
> 
> You used the key word...work. They both must be willing to work at reconciliation, not just grid. Right now I see a woman who is not only unwilling to do any work, she is unwilling to do the bare minimum and give up her lover. She might wish for this all to go away but wishing for something doesn't make it so. My wife wishes I wasn't so perfect so she'd seem better by comparison. But some things are not meant to be.


Oh ye of little faith . . . 

He can get the ball rolling. I think she will join in. But he needs to start it.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> I hope grid will hear past her words, and really listen to what may be in her heart.


If he listens to her heart, he'll be staring OM directly in the face. That's where her heart is.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> Thanks for sharing your thoughts, far.
> 
> I hope grid will hear past her words, and really listen to what may be in her heart.


How does the heart speak without its own mouth?


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> If he listens to her heart, he'll be staring OM directly in the face. That's where her heart is.


I think there is more, much deeper, than that.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> How does the heart speak without its own mouth?


He needs to coax it out. He can do it, if he humbles himself and listens.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> He needs to coax it out. He can do it, if he humbles himself and listens.


OMFG

I just wanna puke. 

What really infuriates me is that JLD will tell a woman to dump her husbands a$$ if he so much as farts in bed. 

Focus on you grid, the hell with your cheater wife.


----------



## Evinrude58

jld said:


> Oh ye of little faith . . .
> 
> He can get the ball rolling. I think she will join in. But he needs to start it.


You've got him standing there with the ball, begging a quadriplegic to get in the game. She doesn't want to play, and is incapable due to her loving the other man.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> He needs to coax it out. He can do it, if he humbles himself and listens.


I think he has been trying. 

Then she reluctantly disclosed that she broke the no contact agreement that she agreed to.


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> I think there is more, much deeper, than that.


I tend to agree with you but he needs to know where to dig. Wandering around in circles is just going to get him lost. He needs to clean the leaves away and get his shovel ready so when she shows him the X on her map he'll be ready to get to work.

I can go all day with these metaphors...


----------



## ButtPunch

His wife has a boyfriend and he is having to eat it. How much more humble can he get?
Drive her over to OMs house for overnights.


----------



## jld

Evinrude58 said:


> You've got him standing there with the ball, begging a quadriplegic to get in the game. She doesn't want to play, and is incapable due to her loving the other man.


I think she would _love_ to share her heart with her husband, if he made it safe for her to do so.

I am surprised so many people are getting hung up on the other man. Yes, it makes things harder, but not impossible.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> I think he has been trying.
> 
> Then she reluctantly disclosed that she broke the no contact agreement that she agreed to.


I don't see enough effort from him, far. If I did, I think we would be seeing different results.

Again, I would not get too hung up on that AP. Grid has much more influence at his disposal, if he would only use it.


----------



## farsidejunky

I see it differently.

Grid, I'm going to back out of this debate that has overtaken your thread. I sincerely hope that you get the outcome that you're looking for.


----------



## jld

I think I will take a break, too. 

And grid, as always, if you want me to leave your thread, just let me know.


----------



## ButtPunch

Please point me to a infidelity thread where JLD's advice has worked. I need to read up
and see it for myself.


----------



## Workathome

jld said:


> When there are children involved, I think all reasonable efforts should be made to restore the marriage.
> 
> I really think this could be turned around. I just do not see anything that could not be overcome, and that would not ultimately help both grid and his wife grow.


You have never experienced infidelity so your opinion that it can overcome is not based in anything other than wishful thinking and projection. You are very much projecting your marriage on to grid, but it doesn't work because your idea of how people should feel while involved in infidelity is based on how you think you might feel. Until you have been there, you don't really have a clue.

How many posts have we seen about people who R or false R and can never trust their spouse. You are just trading one set of issues for another. Once the trust is gone, it's like a condom with a pin prick.


----------



## Anon Pink

bfree said:


> That was a controlled safe environment so obviously he felt comfortable enough to reveal that and you were able to digest that new information knowing you were safe as well. I pray grid and his wife get to a similar place but they both have to be receptive.


They can still attend Retrouvaille. It is the emergency room for marriages. It can be hugely transformational.





ButtPunch said:


> Considering they are $70K in debt, I bet they had some epic fights. Your right I can just see her minimizing, invalidating him. Still no excuse to cheat.



Grid admitted that he had ignored her statements and dismissed them. I didn't pull that out and it's not projection.

I don't think anyone has given his wife a pass for having cheated and I really don't want to go down that twisted ally again. If the marriage is crap and a spouse is being a d!ck and the other spouse cheats taking responsibility for having contributed to ripe conditions is NOT taking responsibility for the affair. Okay? We clear now?




FeministInPink said:


> Right, I get that. And I can relate, as well.
> 
> But... were her complaints, and her instructions to him, legitimate? THAT's what I'm curious about.
> 
> There's a difference between "You ignore my needs and neglect me" and "You won't bow to my every whim and notion."
> 
> And maybe I missed it, because there are so many pages to this thread...


Don't know if they were or not and its not our place to judge that. 

Grid admitted he didn't treat her well for years. He admitted she complained for years and admitted he ignored her complaints for years. I can relate to that and that's why I check in on this thread, because bringing a seriously pissed off wife back into the marriage is something I can help with.


----------



## Workathome

jld said:


> I think he can do it, evinrude. I think with empathy and humility, he can absolutely do it.
> 
> And divorces are expensive. This should never have even gotten that far.


He was doing everything you told him to do and she still filed for divorce.


----------



## ButtPunch

Workathome said:


> He was doing everything you told him to do and she still filed for divorce.


It happens every single time. You would think statistically one would work out her way but I have yet to see it happen.


----------



## tech-novelist

jld said:


> I think she would _love_ to share her heart with her husband, if he made it safe for her to do so.
> 
> I am surprised so many people are getting hung up on the other man. Yes, it makes things harder, but not impossible.


Sorry, but women *generally* don't behave that way. They *usually* switch from one man to another, and once they have switched, they consider it "cheating" to be with the first man.

Men, on the other hand, *generally* are able to have sex with more than one woman without having to be exclusive to either of them.


----------



## Anon Pink

Evinrude58 said:


> I think that is downright mean, but whatever works....
> I can see lots of women telling a man that does that to his lady what an absolute a-hole he is and getting all kinds of kudos from her girlfriends when she tells him so. I do understand the justification for it, just think that it's not the right thing to do. Then again, I'm divorced-- what do I know..



It works for us. The only reason why I bring that up is because there is no ONE way no RIGHT way to apply boundaries and rules and when we step out of the box and really come to understand ourselves from a place of strength, then we can better make those boundary rules.

My husband is stronger than a lot of men here at TAM, though not the most strong by far. He is not threatened by me filling him in on all of my day. We know where our boundaries are and they come from a place of strength and not fear.

To be sure, grid and his wife aren't there yet.

I really think his first order of business is to get the finances in order.
Then to give his wife till a month after Retrouvaille, if they go, that they either split or work their asses off to reconcile. And once they decide to reconcile, THEN he can insist she leave that job and never ever have any sort of contact with that man ever again. 

She says she isn't in contact, grid believes she's not in contact, he verifies that she's not in contact, so why should anyone here second guess him? Just because she hasn't quit that job yet? That's rather flimsy, IMO. But if tomorrow she decides she is all in to reconcile than the next work day she has to hand in her notice. On that we agree.


----------



## Evinrude58

I would disagree. I think it does make it impossible. I don't even know if it's possible even once the OM is gone. Can a person fall in love with their spouse again? I think it's possible, but unlikely with all of the water that's passed under this bridge. How can a man get over a wife rubbing another man in his face, telling the husband she loves the other dude, and that she's capable of doing it again. I agree that she may not feel that way eventually, but she's proven that she's certainly not only capable of cheating, but capable of cheating and being unremorseful. IT's the unremorseful part that gets my goat, and why I'd not even consider a reconciliation unless she demonstrated remorse beyond a shadow of a doubt, and this will likely never happen. 

Was he a bad husband? I don't know, and in their current state, neither of them knows either. But what does it matter? She doesn't love him anymore. 

My consternation with the JLD arguement is that she doesn't seem to get that the wife DOESN'T love him (she told him so), and she can't get that some of us think it's a waste of time to consider reconciliation since there is no love--- the OM has it, and he's not going anywhere thanks to HER.

He's beating his head against a wall and giving her more and more opportunity to RUIN him, while you suggest humility and understanding. 
He understands that she is not in love with him, doesn't want a true reconciliation (just a paycheck coming in), and that she has filed for divorce. He has also showed the ULTIMATE humility in even considering trying to reconcile with a wife who says she no longer loves him AND has committed adultery (the worst offense a wife can commit, in my opinion). Where does it end? What option does he have, other than divorce and hope she is remorseful eventually after f'ing the other dude for a while until the new wears off, or find a new woman to love? Heck, she may very well be remorseful, but still not be in love with him. I don't see the quandary here.


----------



## Evinrude58

Anon Pink said:


> It works for us. The only reason why I bring that up is because there is no ONE way no RIGHT way to apply boundaries and rules and when we step out of the box and really come to understand ourselves from a place of strength, then we can better make those boundary rules.
> 
> My husband is stronger than a lot of men here at TAM, though not the most strong by far. He is not threatened by me filling him in on all of my day. We know where our boundaries are and they come from a place of strength and not fear.
> 
> To be sure, grid and his wife aren't there yet.
> 
> I really think his first order of business is to get the finances in order.
> Then to give his wife till a month after Retrouvaille, if they go, that they either split or work their asses off to reconcile. And once they decide to reconcile, THEN he can insist she leave that job and never ever have any sort of contact with that man ever again.
> 
> *She says she isn't in contact, grid believes she's not in contact, he verifies that she's not in contact, so why should anyone here second guess him?* Just because she hasn't quit that job yet? That's rather flimsy, IMO. But if tomorrow she decides she is all in to reconcile than the next work day she has to hand in her notice. On that we agree.


Because she is a proven liar, has been deceitful for a year, and Grid is just like me--- He doesn't WANT to believe she is in contact. Those are my reasons to second guess him.
She works with the guy and he's leaving music crap on one site, you don't think there's others?


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Jeez, this forum has changed for the worst over the past year or so.

Grid hasn't posted in several pages. Anyone notice? 

And if I were him, I would've nuked this thread and said adios. Nobody seems interested in how he's doing....only on one-upping each other.

Why is it so important for some of you to win? Take it to PMs, for crying out loud.

Do more, talk less. A. lot. less.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Grid has heard past her words and into her heart. He is now watching her actions. Remember, he was all on board for the kids and nicing her back into the marriage. Then he was served with divorce papers and started to slowly detach. He has seen past her words realized she is an ADDICT, not in the fog, making him see this clearly. Yes, I am using the analogy everyone throws out, but refuses to follow to a conclusion. People seem to forget, there is a reason there are rehab clinics and interventions. Sometimes family, friends, the church and spouses are not enough to end an addiction. You need outside help and this may be the court.

As long as the other man is in the picture, she will NEVER fully commit to him. 

“Jesus Christ said 'by their fruits ye shall know them,' not by their disclaimers.”
― William S. Burroughs


----------



## TeddieG

jld said:


> She knows it's wrong, FIP. She is trying to get out of it. And grid could be a big help to her.


jld, one of the arguments, from the Christian MLC corner like Jim Conway, is that if a left-behind spouse can get strong and improve and fix the things that s/he did (and hidden in there is "to make your spouse cheat") there is potential to draw back the cheating mate, and there IS also the notion that the wandering spouse is going to need a strong person to lean on and to help them work their way back. I get that. 

But the reality is, the person with the power to make or break the marriage is the person who cheated. If they come unglued because of the realization of what they've done, and they need the left-behind spouse to be strong and "be there for them," when, pray tell, do the needs of the left-behind spouse get addressed? When does the tip-toeing and privileging of the person who cheated stop in this scenario?


----------



## TeddieG

ButtPunch said:


> I wish I had a dollar for every infidelity thread that started out with the BS blaming himself. When, in reality, the BS has little impact on the WS decision making. People like to think they are part of a situation when a lot of times they are not.


THIS! The WS made his or her decision, and has destroyed the marriage. It can be put back together but only if the WS ends the affair and works on it. The WS has ALL the control, and for jld to tell Grid all these things he has to do and must do and ought to do to reconcile is for the birds. 

Sure, I want my h to trust me and be able to tell me anything. But it is just really sad that after the affair, when he was doing that, he was confiding in me about issues in and about the affair, and not focusing on his own issues that led him into it.


----------



## TeddieG

buttpunch said:


> they aren't eligible because of the ap. Retro knows you can't fix a marriage with 3 people in it.


this!


----------



## ButtPunch

TeddieG said:


> THIS! The WS made his or her decision, and has destroyed the marriage. It can be put back together but only if the WS ends the affair and works on it. The WS has ALL the control, and for jld to tell Grid all these things he has to do and must do and ought to do to reconcile is for the birds.
> 
> Sure, I want my h to trust me and be able to tell me anything. But it is just really sad that after the affair, when he was doing that, he was confiding in me about issues in and about the affair, and not focusing on his own issues that led him into it.


In my own experience, I did the 180 and was very strict about it. I would not talk to my WW about anything except the divorce.

Is this what brought my wife back? NO I doubt it. Mine came back because she wanted to. I didn't convince her of anything and the 180 didn't turn me into some ALPHA STALLION of a man that she couldn't resist.


----------



## Anon Pink

technovelist said:


> Sorry, but women *generally* don't behave that way. They *usually* switch from one man to another, and once they have switched, they consider it "cheating" to be with the first man.
> 
> Men, on the other hand, *generally* are able to have sex with more than one woman without having to be exclusive to either of them.


I wouldn't be too sure about that friend. Women can be just as cold and impersonal about sex as men can.


----------



## Anon Pink

@;


ButtPunch said:


> They aren't eligible because of the AP. Retro knows you can't fix a marriage with 3 people in it.



Actually, yes they are. 

But it's a moot point because both grid and his wife have said she is no longer in contact with the OM. That's all Retrouvaille need to hear.


----------



## bfree

Anon Pink said:


> I wouldn't be too sure about that friend. Women can be just as cold and impersonal about sex as men can.


My wife agrees with you Anon.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

ButtPunch said:


> In my own experience, I did the 180 and was very strict about it. I would not talk to my WW about anything except the divorce.
> 
> Is this what brought my wife back? NO I doubt it. Mine came back because she wanted to. I didn't convince her of anything and the 180 didn't turn me into some ALPHA STALLION of a man that she couldn't resist.


This is why the 180 is always misrepresented. It is to fix your side of the street with minimal emotional complications and help you move 10,000 feet above the mess. It almost always fails when people use to become alpha or woo their spouse back. Then they come here screaming about how much it sucks. Then you find out they did a modified 180, didn't fix themselves and ended up in false reconciliation or a divorce they didn't want.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

jld said:


> I think he can do it, evinrude. I think with empathy and humility, he can absolutely do it.
> 
> And divorces are expensive. This should never have even gotten that far.


Oh good lord, jld is at it again I see....


----------



## TeddieG

jld said:


> Not to the degree that others seem to.
> 
> I think making it warm and safe for her to trust in grid is going to make that AP less and less appealing.
> 
> Idk. I just do not have the fear of the AP that others seem to.
> 
> I do fear grid's throwing away his opportunities to connect with her, though. That is the real risk.


But that's because you've never been cheated on. ANY AP is potentially always lurking, but even more importantly, the WS in an affair fog is just not back at the snap of a finger. If she's not thinking about the AP, why did she file? My h canceled/dismissed the divorce we worked an agreement and consent form for, but he also returned to his AP. 

The entire scenario is far more vulnerable than I think you're capable of grasping, with all due respect.


----------



## TeddieG

jld said:


> You are giving her way too much power, LW. She simply is *not* that powerful.
> 
> I feel like there is a lot of fear of this woman. I don't understand it.


Of course not. You weren't cheated on. I don't understand why, with all the experience people have had on this board, you think you know better?


----------



## TeddieG

jld said:


> I think he can do it, evinrude. I think with empathy and humility, he can absolutely do it.
> 
> And divorces are expensive. This should never have even gotten that far.


What do you mean, it should never have gotten that far? You're blaming Grid because his wife filed for divorce, yet he was following your advice for much of the time he's been dealing with this. He took the path of trying to win back the woman who wanted to be chased by two guys. Nice job. And now you kick him in the pants because she filed for divorce. 

Do you not see this weird Christian thing that you're doing? You're saying, I am a Christian, I have the answers, ALL the answers, I know EXACTLY what you should do, I have the formula, do this, trust me, and believe me, you will get what you want and what is right. Then the person does it. Precisely and with commitment. And it doesn't work. So rather than say, whoops, I didn't have the formula after all, you say something else. And then you say to the person, well, it's not MY fault, you just didn't do it _right_. And now you've screwed it up. 

:wtf::FIREdevil::FIREdevil::FIREdevil::FIREdevil::FIREdevil:


----------



## Anon Pink

TeddieG said:


> Of course not. You weren't cheated on. I don't understand why, with all the experience people have had on this board, you think you know better?


Because she does know about strong men and how a strong man can influence a woman.i really get tired of people trying to shut down JLD. Disagree all you want but don't shut her down.

Grid has said he appreciates her input.

This is a public forum.

There is an ignore function.


----------



## TeddieG

Please, share about the ignore function!! 

I'm not shutting her down, I'm pressing her to explain. I want to know how/why she thinks as she does. Every one else here has credibility because they have experienced infidelity. She has said many things in a very authoritative way that suggests she feels she knows something other people don't, but surely she can explain the basis for her sense of how things really are from her point of view. She's been asked twice how she knows, how she's so sure. She has that authoritative tone of a Christian, the "I know better than you do what is good for you," but if there's a basis for the argument, let's hear it. And I guess it would help if I shared that I am not the type to be accept being told what to do, which is what, when I read jld and hear what she says and the tone she adopts, it seems to me she is doing . . . telling hurting people what to do and that they're not doing it right. She is just asserting her opinions as though they are fact, and while Grid may appreciate her input, he has also fought hard to make his own decisions and not cave in to emotion. He's in the middle of a divorce. I'm in the middle of a divorce, for the second time. The first time, I wanted my marriage to survive. This time I am ambivalent. But during the first time, the things jld says would have made me crazy, left me in a heap, as though it were MY fault my cheating spouse chose to divorce me. If that's how she really feels, she should own it. If the basis of her assessment is something else, it would be nice if she would explain. While I'm capable of seeing someone else's argument, even if I disagree with it, I need to see the argument being made, not just assertions that "if you'll just do this right, you can reach her heart and bring her home, and you really should and ought to because you have kids." What about the voices of the people who TRIED to do that and couldn't because the WS has all the deciding power? Why can't jld, if she's a fair person, concede that for all the people who experienced that, that's real? I'm not seeing anything specific about how to be strong, how to attract his wife, how to do this or that, just judgment. 

If I were Grid, I'd stop reading, too, because this kind of talk when he focuses on putting one foot in front of the other and taking every breath he can to make it through the day is probably really hard; this kind of stuff would have left me stopped in my tracks. . .

My Christian friends stopped talking to me when my h got the texts from the OW on the day of my mother's funeral and chose to make contact again, and then when we got back he filed for divorce. They stopped talking to me because I failed to win the day (look at jld using the term "victory." If "victory" is winning your spouse back from the AP, then the spouse is no different from the AP; the AP may very well want to win at all costs, and lose sight of the relationship and just see the battle. There's more than a little of that in my h's OW's attempts to "win"). I failed to see it through to reconciliation, to woo my husband away from the AP, I failed to put my self-respect and healing and well-being on the line enough, because if I had, he would never have left that day for the OW . . . so say my Christian friends. 

It just is completely non-sensical for someone to say that it a person cheated on is at fault for not successfully restoring a marriage, especially when the cheating spouse is still in an affair fog and probably even still in contact with the AP and HAS TO DECIDE TO COME BACK TO THE MARRIAGE FOR THERE TO BE A MARRIAGE.

On what planet is is impossible for jld to acknowledge that could be true? Grid and everybody else might as well slice open their chests, lay their hearts on the ground, and let jld jump up and down on them in stiletto heels.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Wife did him a favor filing for D, since he couldn't seem to do it for himself. He will be better off.


----------



## bfree

Anon Pink said:


> Because she does know about strong men and how a strong man can influence a woman.i really get tired of people trying to shut down JLD. Disagree all you want but don't shut her down.
> 
> Grid has said he appreciates her input.
> 
> This is a public forum.
> 
> There is an ignore function.


I appreciate jld's advice and we agree for the most part. The only thing we disagree on is the focus. She thinks grid's focus should be on his wife. I think his focus should be on himself and if his wife should turn away from her current path he can then shift his gaze.


----------



## TeddieG

bfree said:


> I appreciate jld's advice and we agree for the most part. The only thing we disagree on is the focus. She thinks grid's focus should be on his wife. I think his focus should be on himself and if his wife should turn away from her current path he can then shift his gaze.


I agree with you - his focus should be on him. Somebody PLEASE explain to me why it is Grid's job to win his wife back and convince her to come home, and if he doesn't, HE's the failure, not HER????


----------



## bfree

TeddieG said:


> I agree with you - his focus should be on him. Somebody PLEASE explain to me why it is Grid's job to win his wife back and convince her to come home, and if he doesn't, HE's the failure, not HER????


It's only his job if he accepts it. His stated goal is to reconcile at all costs. His wife certainly isn't going to drive that train so he has to be the one. I support him and will offer advice toward that end. If his stated goal changes my advice will change as well.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

TeddieG don't respond to provocation. Look, just bow out until grid comes back. You have entered an ironic buzzsaw and it will eventually lead to bans.


----------



## bfree

phillybeffandswiss said:


> TeddieG don't respond to provocation. Look, just bow out until grid comes back. You have entered an ironic buzzsaw and it will eventually lead to bans.


Good advice. I'm taking it.


----------



## LongWalk

Grid's doing a good job. He is making progress. Divorce hurts. It takes a year to get over it.

As long as Grid keeps realistic expectations, he will not allow wild hope to jerk him around. If he does the right things for himself and his kids, there is good chance that Mrs Grid will reexamine her decision. That may take months. It may come post D. 

Grid,

One key now is to not enter into any covert contracts with your WW. Stand up for yourself. Don't speak in anger. Keep jld and AnonPink in mind when you need patience; keep BP and Teddie in mind when you need to make sane decisions. Bfree and several others have holistic view. With regards to those who see cheating wives as incorrigible scum, recognize that some of us never fully recover from the trauma. My marriage did not crash because of infidelity but I identify with those who sit in the PTSD victim chair. You don't have to sit in that chair. I don't think you will. Shamwow, one of TAM's best ever posters, refused to despise his WW. He treated her well as best he could while saving himself. 

Instead of having reconciliation as a top goal, you should think about your kids, your job, your well being, your personal economy, etc. You should let your wife chill regarding the divorce for a bit. You did not explain what she included in her filing but you should respond reasonably. I think your wife will be impressed that you are mature, dignified and philosophical about the pain. But impressing her to save your marriage is not the goal. Treat her with dignity and respect.

If you discover that she is still cheating or has concealed a good deal of unpleasant facts, it is perhaps best to keep it to yourself and simply work harder towards detachment.


----------



## TeddieG

I understand, Philly, and appreciate your advice, thank you, and am taking it to heart. I just drove home from work and realized that this is like deja vu all over again, a trigger. There was one really nice forum I was on for a while, for people with spouses in midlife crisis and cheating, and made some friends there who became friends IRL, and there was a woman there who had been there a long time. She was very subtle, and seemed nice and helpful at first, but the longer I was there, the longer I realized there was a clique of her followers; she had been told how wonderful she was for so long that she thought she was the answer to everyone's problems. She labeled and judged and diagnosed people, especially people who wouldn't follow her prescription, but she felt she could do and say whatever she wanted without accountability and she hurt a lot of people and drove a lot of people away until she and her followers were left. She lost all empathy and compassion and it was she who had all the answers, she had to answer to no one, explain herself to no one, could change her mind AND her advice. She made the forum toxic, and it was sad. She claimed to be reconciling but she lived on that forum and monitored everybody on it; some people questioned how she had time to reconcile and do that too, and of course, in time people left or were banned. She didn't own the forum legally, but she did in every other way. It was creepy. But whatever else anyone had going on, a divorce, a sick child, a crazy wandering spouse, what mattered the most was taking her temperature and how she perceived the treatment she received from everyone and whether they were prepared to bow at her feet. Of course I left in time, but I miss that place to this day. Even so, I know that most of the people, if not all, who were there when I was have most likely gone and are no longer there. 

And I know that this is a wonderful place, and am glad to have found it now that my story is coming to the end I didn't want; at the same time i see that people of all sorts of experiences want the person they're trying to help see their POV because they want to help. There seem to be enough people here on a regular basis that one person isn't going to get control of the responses to real live hurting people in the middle of a divorce they didn't want from a spouse who cheated on them.


----------



## TeddieG

LongWalk said:


> Grid's doing a good job. He is making progress. Divorce hurts. It takes a year to get over it.
> 
> As long as Grid keeps realistic expectations, he will not allow wild hope to jerk him around. If he does the right things for himself and his kids, there is good chance that Mrs Grid will reexamine her decision. That may take months. It may come post D.
> 
> Grid,
> 
> One key now is to not enter into any covert contracts with your WW. Stand up for yourself. Don't speak in anger. Keep jld and AnonPink in mind when you need patience; keep BP and Teddie in mind when you need to make sane decisions. Bfree and several others have holistic view. With regards to those who see cheating wives as incorrigible scum, recognize that some of us never fully recover from the trauma. My marriage did not crash because of infidelity but I identify with those who sit in the PTSD victim chair. You don't have to sit in that chair. I don't think you will. Shamwow, one of TAM's best ever posters, refused to despise his WW. He treated her well as best he could while saving himself.
> 
> Instead of having reconciliation as a top goal, you should think about your kids, your job, your well being, your personal economy, etc. You should let your wife chill regarding the divorce for a bit. You did not explain what she included in her filing but you should respond reasonably. I think your wife will be impressed that you are mature, dignified and philosophical about the pain. But impressing her to save your marriage is not the goal. Treat her with dignity and respect.
> 
> If you discover that she is still cheating or has concealed a good deal of unpleasant facts, it is perhaps best to keep it to yourself and simply work harder towards detachment.



FABULOUS post.


----------



## gridcom

bfree said:


> They both must be willing to work at reconciliation, not just grid. Right now I see a woman who is not only unwilling to do any work, she is unwilling to do the bare minimum and give up her lover. She might wish for this all to go away but wishing for something doesn't make it so.


This unfortunately is currently true


----------



## gridcom

jld said:


> Oh ye of little faith . . .
> 
> He can get the ball rolling. I think she will join in. But he needs to start it.


I believe this to also be true


----------



## gridcom

jld said:


> I don't see enough effort from him, far. If I did, I think we would be seeing different results.


True


----------



## gridcom

Anon Pink said:


> She says she isn't in contact, grid believes she's not in contact, he verifies that she's not in contact, so why should anyone here second guess him? Just because she hasn't quit that job yet? That's rather flimsy, IMO. But if tomorrow she decides she is all in to reconcile than the next work day she has to hand in her notice. On that we agree.


Perfect and I agree


----------



## gridcom

TeddieG said:


> But that's because you've never been cheated on. ANY AP is potentially always lurking, but even more importantly, the WS in an affair fog is just not back at the snap of a finger. If she's not thinking about the AP, why did she file? My h canceled/dismissed the divorce we worked an agreement and consent form for, but he also returned to his AP.
> 
> The entire scenario is far more vulnerable than I think you're capable of grasping, with all due respect.


Good stuff here


----------



## LongWalk

If there is something that you promised your wife many times but blew her off. You can fulfil that promise, not to guilt trip her into reconciliation but to be good for your word. Don't make a big deal about it or announce your good deed. Don't mention it to her at all. Just do it for your own sake.

If doing something makes you feel like a doormat, don't effing do it.


----------



## gridcom

Helllllo Cleveland!!!!!!!


Wow, after I posted yesterday that it wasn't me they were talking about with the beer, I decided not to come here until just now and it just took me 17 HOURS (and a half) to read all of the comments. And I did read every one of them. And I read them slow. And I appreciate them all. I really do.

My thoughts. There are two sides here


I think jld, LifeIsTooShort, and Anon's approach has merit in this particular situation. I know it's hard to understand but I would bet the ranch that even if my wife had sex with this guy more than once before I was aware of the affair, she has not had sex with him since. It may very well come out in the end that she had sex more than once with this guy and when that day comes, I honestly wont be that surprised. I do think that is the "BIG REVEAL" yet to happen in this story. But, again, I would say I am more than certain it hasn't happened since. I'm just too on top of it. More than you all know and more than I want to admit here. If you catch my drift......

I think she is having a hard time detaching emotionally from the guy. I think it was a very emotional relationship that right before the PA, escalated quickly. I also spelled escalated correctly the first time. Anyway, once the PA happened, there was so much chaos from all directions. On both of us. I look back now at my early posts and my early journal entries and I was WAAAY F*CKED UP. Man, I am miles from that now. I may still be a bit of a mess, only time will tell. But, those first 8 weeks, I was out . of. control. 

And so was my wife. His arrow was deep in her heart. And honestly, simultaneous to getting served, we had a few conversations that kind of shifted things in both of us. For me, that conversation where she told me that it's not out of the question that it could happen again was a HUGE turning point. It really made me jump entirely to a different lane. 

Do I still ultimately want to reconcile? Sure I do. But, is it "at all costs"? Definitely absolutely not. Like I've said the past few weeks, I'm going to be alright either way. I saw a lawyer, he told me that I wont be working for free and I'll be able to wipe my a$$ with the toilet paper of my choice (crucial...) and that was a relief to me. I don't know if I mentioned this ever, but my wife has agreed to NO alimony. I don't want to pay it and she agrees that, because of the infidelity, she should step up and pay her own way for doing something so devious. We've agreed to mediation if we ultimately decide it's not meant to be. I am responding to the divorce on my own (after initial lawyer visit where he explicitly coached me on what to do) so I don't have to give the 5k retainer. I will go to the Country court on Tuesday and make it official. My wife has told her lawyer once I do that, that the pause button is hit until we sort it all out.

1- I have not yet really followed the jld, LifeIsTooShort, Anon approach. I have not strictly focused only on myself. I have done a much better job of that in the last 2 weeks, absolutely. But, to say that I am not working my wife over for her to do the right thing would be a lie. Again, I'm getting there. I'd say I am 80% of the way to focusing strictly on me, but not yet 100%. So, to say those women's approach hasn't worked....I'd say that's to be determined as I haven't truly backed off my wife and given her some space. Until I have the inner strength to do it for a prolonged period of time, I think it's too premature to say that approach doesn't work. Again, and it needs to be repeated because it's getting lost..... I was emotionally abusive and in the distant past (but not forgotten) verbally abusive. I was dismissive. This was NOT a constant thing, only when we had disputes. But, my approach with disputes were agonizing, prolonged, and unneccesary. It's a freakin' SHAME that I KNOW this, can admit and acknowledge it, but STILL cannot stop doing it sometimes. I'll admit I've lost my cool with my wife even this week and when I get in that frame of mind, I feel absolutely justified . It's bizzare and I keep talking to my IC about this, because it's a problem. It's going to be a problem with whomever I am with. 

This week I have gotten frustrated with my wife for two specific reasons. First, earlier in the week, because she admitted that when she see's her AP (which is actually tonight) and he asks her how she is doing, she will be cordial. That drove me nuts. This guy is THE ENEMY. He doesn't have a problem hurting my kids for his own pursuits. I ask her "Don't you realize that?" and she just can't give me a straight up answer. And, here it comes........ I just WONT STOP until I drill it into her mind that I AM RIGHT AND SHE IS WRONG AND WHAT THE F&CK!!!!!!! 

And her response to that interaction is "This is THE problem. You are not making me love you more. You are chasing me away" 

So, you see the dilemma. It's frustrating because "F&CKING DUH!!!!!!! Don't talk to the guy. It's not helping what you say you want deep down What are you, dumb?" 

The second time it happened this week was when I asked her when she was going to actually participate, on any level, in reconciliation. I feel like I am doing all the work. She is sitting on the sidelines, arms folded saying "Let me know when you get into the endzone so I can come running into your arms." I ask her "It took two people to break the marriage, why do I feel like it's one person that has to fix it?"

And her answer is "Until we go a period of time where you are not asking me EVERY DAY and BADGERING ME constantly and just all up in my face about why I'm not participating, it's hard for me to feel the desire/urge to participate. I need you to back off, just be nice, give me a chance to sort my head out and until you can do that for any length of time measured by DAYS or WEEKS and not HOURS and MINUTES, you are just going to be frustrated"

I mean, thats not exactly a quote, but that's the message I am getting.

So, whew............ That was rambling, sorry. But, I am writing this coming off of 90 minutes of reading all your comments.

Good news though. I am back to work at 90% focus. My friends all tell me I sound better and chipper and like my old self. My sharp wit is coming out from it's hiding. I'm trying to keep the sharp tongue and sarcasm away from my wife. My sense of humor is very akin to Louie CK. When he hit the scene, I was like "that's me!" Same world view. My wife likes it but not when it's at her expense, so I'm watching that and making sure I dont do that anymore.

Ok, last but not least and in the spirit of throwing it all out there and being totally transparent, we did have sex today for the first time. I initiated it and honestly, I woke up horny as hell and wasn't going to take no for answer. It's been 14 weeks of no sex and man, ........no. We were alone in the house, healthy, laying in bed, two idiot married people looking at our computers and I just had a moment where I was like "Maybe I wont be so out of my mind if I can just get in this woman's pants" So, yeah. Done. 

She was concerned I was going to have visions of someone else with her and I assured her "Nah, it aint like that" and she was also concerned that I would take it as a sign that everything is alright and to that I told her that I don't think it was going to hurt and it could only help. Both of us, sexually, were never really "lovemakers" with the Barry White and candles and passionate kissing. We both like fun SEX. Nothing crazy (although...eh nvrmnd) just straight up "lets do this" and then we can eat some pizza or listen to some tunes. 

So, yeah. 

Again, I am not afraid of divorce. I was terrified of not being married to my wife and being alone, but I see that side of it and I think that it could be cool if that's what happens. Not that I WANT it, but if that's what it's going to be, bring it on. 

I'm going to go watch the Mets now and drink some Founders All Day IPA. I may check in later, but only if the game is a blowout

Lets go Mets


----------



## cbnero

My posts are for grids benefit directly. 

My point is: you can't really detach if you don't detach. Many of these posts suggest doing stuff hoping for a reaction. That being a change in her.

I'm focusing on grid and grid ONLY. His wife sucks! She is a long time liar sleeping with another dude. And she filed for divorce. Stick to the facts and quit trying to read the mind of a nut job!

I am pushing for change for HIS benefit. The marriage is secondary. 

Reading his last posts I think he sees it. Those of you without personal experience have great marriage advice sans an affair. Otherwise what you say is useless. Fact.

This thread is completely overrun with mind reading crystal ball theorists and those of us focusing on the facts and reality of the situation who can offer helpful experienced based advice are getting lost in the noise. It's too bad because this is crap is what most BS feel and dream on their own and the reality is that thinking doesn't work. Sorry grid.


----------



## ButtPunch

Sex huh?

She can sense you detaching.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## gridcom

ButtPunch said:


> Sex huh?
> 
> She can sense you detaching.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Believe me, she wasn't looking for sex. But, she didn't run away either.

Mets!
Beer!
Goodnight


----------



## turnera

SOMEhow, you've managed to miss the MAIN point. You have shown her NO detachment. NO willingness to walk. ONLY attempts at manipulation, which no woman wants. And threats, designed to get a promise out of her.

When you can finally just say 'I need THIS and if you won't give me THIS, I'm seeing the lawyer,' THEN you will become attractive to her.

SO much manipulation in your post.

All you had to say was "if you talk to him again, I'm going to divorce."

That is all. Instead you went into this ridiculous push-pull of expecting her to show you something. Instead of just having your boundary (no more OM) and consequence (I walk). It would have been SO much easier if you would have just done this.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

She MUST to the heavy lifting if this is to work. She lost her right to make demands and put forth rules to make it more comfortable for HER. She has a damn lot of nerve to think she gets to tell YOU how this is going to be. I think you would do well to move your thread to the CWI section.


----------



## LongWalk

Was she different afterwards?

Any warmth?


----------



## gridcom

LongWalk said:


> Was she different afterwards?
> 
> Any warmth?


No different, but I was already an hour past my work start time and she had things to do, so we immediately went into our own zones.


----------



## ButtPunch

You should have insisted that she be tested for STDs before considering to touch her. 

She cheats and you pester her for sex. Not a good play IMO.

PS .... I made this very same mistake.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## anchorwatch

I don't have a problem. Good. You had sex, it was long in coming. Both adults. Next...

Let's go deGrom!


----------



## Duguesclin

Grid, 

Your wife seems to be a very nice lady.

I am not suggesting what she did was right or even justified, but she seems to have a conscience. If she was really out to get you like some suggest on this thread, she would have gone after the alimony. She has not, which shows she cares.

It will be hard for you, but give her some space. Do not be on top of her all the time. You appear to me to be a little overwhelming. I think you talk too much. Pause and *listen* to her.

Go Mets (but the Cubs will win the world series, sorry)


----------



## Anon Pink

Sex?

Alright!

I say bang her up one side and down the other then tell her to go make you a sammich! 

I think sex right now is perfect. You two have been so stressed and so tense sex might be the very thing that helps her see you for you and not just a collection of *******ry.

So I'm fascinated that she doesn't want any alimony and recognizes she's the one who ruined the marriage. This really makes me think she is being honest about not being in contact with the OM. I guess if she is taking responsibility for ruining the marriage then why would she lie about the OM?

Hysterical bonding sex... Mmmmmm. Think I'm gonna pick a fight with Mr Pink tonight!


----------



## lifeistooshort

Grid, OM is a d0uchebag. Period. But when you verbally and/or emotionally abuse your wife you hurt your kids too. Think about it.

And manipulating her into "doing the right thing" simply reinforces her feelings that you control everything. That WILL push her away. Make no mistake.....push sex if you're horny but know that manipulating and bullying will push her away. 

If you just want to get some on her way out fine but understand what it is.

This may not be at all applicable to you but when my ex pushed for sex when I didn't want it I thought he was less than pathetic. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tom67

Grid that mets pitcher Degrom, he is the right handed version of Chris Sale.
End t/j:smile2:


----------



## MEM2020

I wanted to like this post. I just can't. 

It's very honest - so that is a big plus. 

So I'll respond in kind. 

Pressuring her to FEEL the way you FEEL - is counterproductive. She will fight you to the death - simply over the control issue. 

Perfectly ok to say - IN A SOFT AND TOTALLY CALM VOICE: 
I hope you will eventually see a man who truly doesn't care AT ALL about your children - when you see this man. 

------
And that's it. Full fvcking stop. You have shared your viewpoint in a direct and CONCISE manner. Don't expect or press for a response. 
------
My marriage got 10 times better when I learned to say - what I believed to be true - without ANY EXPECTATION OF RESULT. 

Remorse - if it comes at all - will arrive at a pace that works for G2. Trying to force it, will just produce DEFIANCE and a lot of it. 

I am not defending G2's behavior for one moment. Simply telling you that smothering is a certain path to disaster. 

Let me give you a classic example. 
Wife: I want to move out (translation: I want to take GIANT step away from you)

There really are only 4 types of responses available to the H:
1. Begging, pleading with her not to leave 
2. Angrily escalating and telling her that if she moves out, you are filing
3. Genuine indifference (do what you want, I don't care)
4. I'm sorry you're upset, I'm sad you want to leave, that said this is about what you want. So how can I help you create the space that you need? Do you want to move out, or should I? 

1. Is selfish and weak. It's all about him.
2. Is fear, presenting as anger, translating into aggression. It's love, expressed as hate. And yes, it's weak. 
3. If it's genuine, is confirmation he doesn't really love her.
4. This is a genuine: ALL ABOUT HER - response. 

The irony of (4), is that, if it's genuine, most women find it hard to resist. That reflexive - all about you thing - from someone you KNOW loves you - is powerful. 




gridcom said:


> Helllllo Cleveland!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> Wow, after I posted yesterday that it wasn't me they were talking about with the beer, I decided not to come here until just now and it just took me 17 HOURS (and a half) to read all of the comments. And I did read every one of them. And I read them slow. And I appreciate them all. I really do.
> 
> My thoughts. There are two sides here
> 
> 
> I think jld, LifeIsTooShort, and Anon's approach has merit in this particular situation. I know it's hard to understand but I would bet the ranch that even if my wife had sex with this guy more than once before I was aware of the affair, she has not had sex with him since. It may very well come out in the end that she had sex more than once with this guy and when that day comes, I honestly wont be that surprised. I do think that is the "BIG REVEAL" yet to happen in this story. But, again, I would say I am more than certain it hasn't happened since. I'm just too on top of it. More than you all know and more than I want to admit here. If you catch my drift......
> 
> I think she is having a hard time detaching emotionally from the guy. I think it was a very emotional relationship that right before the PA, escalated quickly. I also spelled escalated correctly the first time. Anyway, once the PA happened, there was so much chaos from all directions. On both of us. I look back now at my early posts and my early journal entries and I was WAAAY F*CKED UP. Man, I am miles from that now. I may still be a bit of a mess, only time will tell. But, those first 8 weeks, I was out . of. control.
> 
> And so was my wife. His arrow was deep in her heart. And honestly, simultaneous to getting served, we had a few conversations that kind of shifted things in both of us. For me, that conversation where she told me that it's not out of the question that it could happen again was a HUGE turning point. It really made me jump entirely to a different lane.
> 
> Do I still ultimately want to reconcile? Sure I do. But, is it "at all costs"? Definitely absolutely not. Like I've said the past few weeks, I'm going to be alright either way. I saw a lawyer, he told me that I wont be working for free and I'll be able to wipe my a$$ with the toilet paper of my choice (crucial...) and that was a relief to me. I don't know if I mentioned this ever, but my wife has agreed to NO alimony. I don't want to pay it and she agrees that, because of the infidelity, she should step up and pay her own way for doing something so devious. We've agreed to mediation if we ultimately decide it's not meant to be. I am responding to the divorce on my own (after initial lawyer visit where he explicitly coached me on what to do) so I don't have to give the 5k retainer. I will go to the Country court on Tuesday and make it official. My wife has told her lawyer once I do that, that the pause button is hit until we sort it all out.
> 
> 1- I have not yet really followed the jld, LifeIsTooShort, Anon approach. I have not strictly focused only on myself. I have done a much better job of that in the last 2 weeks, absolutely. But, to say that I am not working my wife over for her to do the right thing would be a lie. Again, I'm getting there. I'd say I am 80% of the way to focusing strictly on me, but not yet 100%. So, to say those women's approach hasn't worked....I'd say that's to be determined as I haven't truly backed off my wife and given her some space. Until I have the inner strength to do it for a prolonged period of time, I think it's too premature to say that approach doesn't work. Again, and it needs to be repeated because it's getting lost..... I was emotionally abusive and in the distant past (but not forgotten) verbally abusive. I was dismissive. This was NOT a constant thing, only when we had disputes. But, my approach with disputes were agonizing, prolonged, and unneccesary. It's a freakin' SHAME that I KNOW this, can admit and acknowledge it, but STILL cannot stop doing it sometimes. I'll admit I've lost my cool with my wife even this week and when I get in that frame of mind, I feel absolutely justified . It's bizzare and I keep talking to my IC about this, because it's a problem. It's going to be a problem with whomever I am with.
> 
> This week I have gotten frustrated with my wife for two specific reasons. First, earlier in the week, because she admitted that when she see's her AP (which is actually tonight) and he asks her how she is doing, she will be cordial. That drove me nuts. This guy is THE ENEMY. He doesn't have a problem hurting my kids for his own pursuits. I ask her "Don't you realize that?" and she just can't give me a straight up answer. And, here it comes........ I just WONT STOP until I drill it into her mind that I AM RIGHT AND SHE IS WRONG AND WHAT THE F&CK!!!!!!!
> 
> And her response to that interaction is "This is THE problem. You are not making me love you more. You are chasing me away"
> 
> So, you see the dilemma. It's frustrating because "F&CKING DUH!!!!!!! Don't talk to the guy. It's not helping what you say you want deep down What are you, dumb?"
> 
> The second time it happened this week was when I asked her when she was going to actually participate, on any level, in reconciliation. I feel like I am doing all the work. She is sitting on the sidelines, arms folded saying "Let me know when you get into the endzone so I can come running into your arms." I ask her "It took two people to break the marriage, why do I feel like it's one person that has to fix it?"
> 
> And her answer is "Until we go a period of time where you are not asking me EVERY DAY and BADGERING ME constantly and just all up in my face about why I'm not participating, it's hard for me to feel the desire/urge to participate. I need you to back off, just be nice, give me a chance to sort my head out and until you can do that for any length of time measured by DAYS or WEEKS and not HOURS and MINUTES, you are just going to be frustrated"
> 
> I mean, thats not exactly a quote, but that's the message I am getting.
> 
> So, whew............ That was rambling, sorry. But, I am writing this coming off of 90 minutes of reading all your comments.
> 
> Good news though. I am back to work at 90% focus. My friends all tell me I sound better and chipper and like my old self. My sharp wit is coming out from it's hiding. I'm trying to keep the sharp tongue and sarcasm away from my wife. My sense of humor is very akin to Louie CK. When he hit the scene, I was like "that's me!" Same world view. My wife likes it but not when it's at her expense, so I'm watching that and making sure I dont do that anymore.
> 
> Ok, last but not least and in the spirit of throwing it all out there and being totally transparent, we did have sex today for the first time. I initiated it and honestly, I woke up horny as hell and wasn't going to take no for answer. It's been 14 weeks of no sex and man, ........no. We were alone in the house, healthy, laying in bed, two idiot married people looking at our computers and I just had a moment where I was like "Maybe I wont be so out of my mind if I can just get in this woman's pants" So, yeah. Done.
> 
> She was concerned I was going to have visions of someone else with her and I assured her "Nah, it aint like that" and she was also concerned that I would take it as a sign that everything is alright and to that I told her that I don't think it was going to hurt and it could only help. Both of us, sexually, were never really "lovemakers" with the Barry White and candles and passionate kissing. We both like fun SEX. Nothing crazy (although...eh nvrmnd) just straight up "lets do this" and then we can eat some pizza or listen to some tunes.
> 
> So, yeah.
> 
> Again, I am not afraid of divorce. I was terrified of not being married to my wife and being alone, but I see that side of it and I think that it could be cool if that's what happens. Not that I WANT it, but if that's what it's going to be, bring it on.
> 
> I'm going to go watch the Mets now and drink some Founders All Day IPA. I may check in later, but only if the game is a blowout
> 
> Lets go Mets


----------



## ThreeStrikes

gridcom said:


> And her answer is "Until we go a period of time where you are not asking me EVERY DAY and BADGERING ME constantly and just all up in my face about why I'm not participating, it's hard for me to feel the desire/urge to participate. I need you to back off, just be nice, give me a chance to sort my head out and until you can do that for any length of time measured by DAYS or WEEKS and not HOURS and MINUTES, you are just going to be frustrated"


Grid, this is why the 180 is vital. Even your WW is telling you to do it! Badgering, pestering, etc. makes you look weak and clingy in her eyes.

I'm ok with the sex, as long as she's currently not banging OM.

This is the first post I've seen from you where I see a glimmer of hope for R, coming from her. However, I realize I'm only seeing this from your perspective, as she isn't posting here.

OK, commit to the 180 for a week!


----------



## TeddieG

gridcom said:


> Helllllo Cleveland!!!!!!!
> 
> . . . . .
> It may very well come out in the end that she had sex more than once with this guy and when that day comes, I honestly wont be that surprised. I do think that is the "BIG REVEAL" yet to happen in this story. But, again, I would say I am more than certain it hasn't happened since. I'm just too on top of it. More than you all know and more than I want to admit here. If you catch my drift......
> 
> *I think she is having a hard time detaching emotionally from the guy. I think it was a very emotional relationship that right before the PA, escalated quickly.* This is one of the biggest issues in what happens long term.I also spelled escalated correctly the first time. Anyway, once the PA happened, there was so much chaos from all directions. On both of us. I look back now at my early posts and my early journal entries and I was WAAAY F*CKED UP. Man, I am miles from that now. I may still be a bit of a mess, only time will tell. But, those first 8 weeks, I was out . of. control.
> 
> And so was my wife. His arrow was deep in her heart. And honestly, simultaneous to getting served, we had a few conversations that kind of shifted things in both of us. For me, that conversation where she told me that it's not out of the question that it could happen again was a HUGE turning point. It really made me jump entirely to a different lane.
> 
> *Do I still ultimately want to reconcile? Sure I do. But, is it "at all costs"? Definitely absolutely not.* Good! Like I've said the past few weeks, I'm going to be alright either way. I saw a lawyer, he told me that I wont be working for free and I'll be able to wipe my a$$ with the toilet paper of my choice (crucial...) and that was a relief to me. I don't know if I mentioned this ever, but my wife has agreed to NO alimony. I don't want to pay it and she agrees that, because of the infidelity, she should step up and pay her own way for doing something so devious. We've agreed to mediation if we ultimately decide it's not meant to be. I am responding to the divorce on my own (after initial lawyer visit where he explicitly coached me on what to do) so I don't have to give the 5k retainer. I will go to the Country court on Tuesday and make it official. My wife has told her lawyer once I do that, that the pause button is hit until we sort it all out.
> 
> 1- I have not yet really followed the jld, LifeIsTooShort, Anon approach. I have not strictly focused only on myself. I have done a much better job of that in the last 2 weeks, absolutely. But, to say that I am not working my wife over for her to do the right thing would be a lie. Again, I'm getting there. I'd say I am 80% of the way to focusing strictly on me, but not yet 100%. So, to say those women's approach hasn't worked....I'd say that's to be determined as I haven't truly backed off my wife and given her some space. Until I have the inner strength to do it for a prolonged period of time, I think it's too premature to say that approach doesn't work. Again, and it needs to be repeated because it's getting lost..... I was emotionally abusive and in the distant past (but not forgotten) verbally abusive. I was dismissive. This was NOT a constant thing, only when we had disputes. But, my approach with disputes were agonizing, prolonged, and unneccesary. It's a freakin' SHAME that I KNOW this, can admit and acknowledge it, but STILL cannot stop doing it sometimes. I'll admit I've lost my cool with my wife even this week and when I get in that frame of mind, I feel absolutely justified . It's bizzare and I keep talking to my IC about this, because it's a problem. It's going to be a problem with whomever I am with.
> 
> This week I have gotten frustrated with my wife for two specific reasons. First, earlier in the week, because she admitted that when she see's her AP (which is actually tonight) and he asks her how she is doing, she will be cordial. That drove me nuts. This guy is THE ENEMY. He doesn't have a problem hurting my kids for his own pursuits. I ask her "Don't you realize that?" and she just can't give me a straight up answer. That should be a sign of real concern, that she doesn't see him as the enemy. And I SO hear what you're saying about the frustration of her not listening to you, not being willing to realize what you're trying to tell her. Grid, I tried dropping hints to my h, because my experience with men is that women tell them things, they blow it off, and they later bring it up as though they thought of it. But that's with healthy men. With my MLC bi polar cheating h, I had NO influence on how he thought or what he considered as he made his way through deciding on what to do about the affair. You're the spouse, and you should be able to ask your spouse to consider that x is a problem, or y is a threat to your marriage, but in affair fog, there is NO WAY they are going to hear or listen. And it is frustrating, because you want them to realize their part and their role in bringing the affair to an end, and it is also frustrating because it cuts at and undermines your sense of being a spouse. in my case it was particularly frustrating, because my h and I ALWAYS made decisions together, sitting down and talking out the pros and cons, anticipating consequences, and arriving at a decision together. Shouldn't putting your marriage back together be one of those things where that kind of process should be true IN SPADES? And, here it comes........ I just WONT STOP until I drill it into her mind that I AM RIGHT AND SHE IS WRONG AND WHAT THE F&CK!!!!!!! Good luck with that, my friend!!
> 
> And her response to that interaction is "This is THE problem. You are not making me love you more. You are chasing me away"
> 
> So, you see the dilemma. More than you know. It's frustrating because "F&CKING DUH!!!!!!! Don't talk to the guy. It's not helping what you say you want deep down What are you, dumb?" Nope, in the affair fog. Not ready to let go, in a position where she's got two options in front of her, and if she's like my h, hoping one of the two options will make the decision for her, possibly. That's how it is coming down to the wire in my situation.
> 
> The second time it happened this week was when I asked her when she was going to actually participate, on any level, in reconciliation. I feel like I am doing all the work. She is sitting on the sidelines, arms folded saying "Let me know when you get into the endzone so I can come running into your arms." I ask her "It took two people to break the marriage, why do I feel like it's one person that has to fix it?"
> 
> And her answer is "Until we go a period of time where you are not asking me EVERY DAY and BADGERING ME constantly and just all up in my face about why I'm not participating, it's hard for me to feel the desire/urge to participate. I need you to back off, just be nice, give me a chance to sort my head out and until you can do that for any length of time measured by DAYS or WEEKS and not HOURS and MINUTES, you are just going to be frustrated"
> 
> I mean, thats not exactly a quote, but that's the message I am getting. Dude, that's the first thing I learned in this process. Forums all over the internet and my IC said, do NOT put pressure on, do not demand, do not ask, put away the calendar, stop watching the clock. Don't be watching for the expiration date on her affair fog or emotional connection with the AP. If/when the person is ready for reconciliation, you'll know it. If you get tired of waiting, there's some great advice on Al Turtle's website for writing an ultimatum letter, but if you're holding steady until reconciliation might occur, prepare to just let it be.
> 
> So, whew............ That was rambling, sorry. But, I am writing this coming off of 90 minutes of reading all your comments.
> 
> Good news though. I am back to work at 90% focus. My friends all tell me I sound better and chipper and like my old self. My sharp wit is coming out from it's hiding. I'm trying to keep the sharp tongue and sarcasm away from my wife. My sense of humor is very akin to Louie CK. When he hit the scene, I was like "that's me!" Same world view. My wife likes it but not when it's at her expense, so I'm watching that and making sure I dont do that anymore.
> 
> Ok, last but not least and in the spirit of throwing it all out there and being totally transparent, we did have sex today for the first time. I initiated it and honestly, I woke up horny as hell and wasn't going to take no for answer. It's been 14 weeks of no sex and man, ........no. We were alone in the house, healthy, laying in bed, two idiot married people looking at our computers and I just had a moment where I was like "Maybe I wont be so out of my mind if I can just get in this woman's pants" So, yeah. Done.
> 
> She was concerned I was going to have visions of someone else with her and I assured her "Nah, it aint like that" and she was also concerned that I would take it as a sign that everything is alright and to that I told her that I don't think it was going to hurt and it could only help. Both of us, sexually, were never really "lovemakers" with the Barry White and candles and passionate kissing. We both like fun SEX. Nothing crazy (although...eh nvrmnd) just straight up "lets do this" and then we can eat some pizza or listen to some tunes.
> 
> So, yeah.
> 
> *Again, I am not afraid of divorce*. Good!I was terrified of not being married to my wife and being alone, but I see that side of it and I think that it could be cool if that's what happens. Not that I WANT it, but if that's what it's going to be, bring it on.
> 
> I'm going to go watch the Mets now and drink some Founders All Day IPA. I may check in later, but only if the game is a blowout
> 
> Lets go Mets


Thanks, Grid. Good to hear from you. Your post makes me glad that I found various forums and books that said, and I was able to internalize, that there are things we can do to enhance the possibility of reconciliation, but we cannot single-handedly make it happen, control the situation to bring it to bear, or ensure that it happens. We can't control the other person. 

Your post brings back memories. I remember after he confessed to the infidelity, he gave me a clear strong signal that it was in the past. But as I've shared, after the confession, he wanted space and time and I sure needed it after that wallop, so he got an apartment. And of course he was still seeing her. What I learned was that while he told ME he was done, his actions said something else. There are variations on the theme, but I've seen the "believe 0% of what they say and only 50% of what they do," or believe half of what you hear and all of what you see . . . 

You're walking through the minefield of the affair having been confessed to, the BS still in the emotional fog of the affair and still feeling emotionally attached to the AP, and actually attached still in real life or attached to the ideation and expectation of the benefits of the affair, and still addicted to a certain degree to the affair high. The person is still in your space, and when you look at her you see your spouse, and you want her back, but the spouse was busy detaching long before you were aware there was a problem. There is some relief for the WS when the affair is confessed, but that's about it; the desire for the AP lingers, and the suspicion about the changes the BS makes remains. 

You seem to be doing as well as can be expected with this part of the journey, but the only thing I would say is, really, it only hurts you when you talk to her in an attempt to take her temperature about the rate and tempo of her commitment to reconciliation. Just let it go. Given that you've shared that story, I do think you're wise to adopt a stance of patience that has been advised by a couple of posters, but IF you do that, you'll need to take steps to protect your sanity. One of the things I've realized looking back is that while there are many reasons why it's not good to put an expiration date on a commitment to reconciliation, part of the problem with asking is that it is possible for the WS to see the BS's questions as a form of cost/benefit analysis: look, I'm changing, I'm different, can't you respond, affirm me, recommit. Just as this is linked to the issue of trying to persuade the WS to see the detriment of the continued presence of the AP, it is also a form of persuasion from the BS to commit to reconcile to reconciliation. My h's OW has made demands, file for divorce, marry me, and my h acquiesced, and all the while the OW doesn't seem to care that she's pulling his strings like a marionette puppet and HE's not the one making the voluntary, volitional decision to be all in. I'm late to the game, 7 years on (and in MLC literature, it is clear MLC takes 3-5 years at a minimum, some people come home at 2 years but still have issues to work through, but there was even one couple who reconciled after 13 years), but if my h brought up reconciliation now, I would not jump on it; I would say, fine, IF you're done with the AP and have fully grieved and let go, and IF you'll go to counseling and get treatment for your depression and work through your FOO issues. I can say that now from a position of strength because I can do without him; I don't particularly want to, but I can, and that is better than living with him in the state he's been in for God knows how long now. 

_Dude, you're learning that if you step away from pressing her about reconciliation, the result is that you live with constant uncertainty_, until she tells you what she has decided. This may be why you're getting so annoyed. You're starting to sense the uncertainty of the situation, and the absence of a formula that will solve it all. And you may want affirmation of your heard-earned changes. But if you can lighten the pressure some, you might feel some reciprocation from her in day to day terms; you may not feel any confirmation from her that she's considering or prepared to commit to reconciliation. 

My other concern is that you constantly revisit the times you say you were abusive. You have to put that in the past and focus on how/who you want to be now. As long as you keep looking at those episodes, you'll keep running a tape in your head that you broke it and you can fix it. Fix you. It is possible you'll get back to the you she fell for, but it could also be that she's too emotionally detached to the AP right now to give you any affirmation of any of that. She probably sees it but doesn't know what to do with it. You DO seem to be able to separate the work you're doing on yourself and the possibility of reconciliation. 

And just keep in mind, this is from my experience, and your situation may be different, but I was wondering when and how you would become aware of the minefield/mindfield of the post-affair confession and how to sort out living together with your spouse, with the AP hanging in the shadows, either in the past or the present or potential future. You're doing great, really you are, and have come a long way in a short time, but really, I found the advice to stop the conversations about the WS's time table for reconciliation really very helpful, even if it DID mean learning to live with uncertainty. You have NO idea how much doing that will make you grow in ways you don't expect.


----------



## Chuck71

TeddieG said:


> Please, share about the ignore function!!
> 
> I'm not shutting her down, I'm pressing her to explain. I want to know how/why she thinks as she does. Every one else here has credibility because they have experienced infidelity. She has said many things in a very authoritative way that suggests she feels she knows something other people don't, but surely she can explain the basis for her sense of how things really are from her point of view. She's been asked twice how she knows, how she's so sure. She has that authoritative tone of a Christian, the "I know better than you do what is good for you," but if there's a basis for the argument, let's hear it. And I guess it would help if I shared that I am not the type to be accept being told what to do, which is what, when I read jld and hear what she says and the tone she adopts, it seems to me she is doing . . . telling hurting people what to do and that they're not doing it right. She is just asserting her opinions as though they are fact, and while Grid may appreciate her input, he has also fought hard to make his own decisions and not cave in to emotion. He's in the middle of a divorce. I'm in the middle of a divorce, for the second time. The first time, I wanted my marriage to survive. This time I am ambivalent. But during the first time, the things jld says would have made me crazy, left me in a heap, as though it were MY fault my cheating spouse chose to divorce me. If that's how she really feels, she should own it. If the basis of her assessment is something else, it would be nice if she would explain. While I'm capable of seeing someone else's argument, even if I disagree with it, I need to see the argument being made, not just assertions that "if you'll just do this right, you can reach her heart and bring her home, and you really should and ought to because you have kids." What about the voices of the people who TRIED to do that and couldn't because the WS has all the deciding power? Why can't jld, if she's a fair person, concede that for all the people who experienced that, that's real? I'm not seeing anything specific about how to be strong, how to attract his wife, how to do this or that, just judgment.
> 
> If I were Grid, I'd stop reading, too, because this kind of talk when he focuses on putting one foot in front of the other and taking every breath he can to make it through the day is probably really hard; this kind of stuff would have left me stopped in my tracks. . .
> 
> My Christian friends stopped talking to me when my h got the texts from the OW on the day of my mother's funeral and chose to make contact again, and then when we got back he filed for divorce. They stopped talking to me because I failed to win the day (look at jld using the term "victory." If "victory" is winning your spouse back from the AP, then the spouse is no different from the AP; the AP may very well want to win at all costs, and lose sight of the relationship and just see the battle. There's more than a little of that in my h's OW's attempts to "win"). I failed to see it through to reconciliation, to woo my husband away from the AP, I failed to put my self-respect and healing and well-being on the line enough, because if I had, he would never have left that day for the OW . . . so say my Christian friends.
> 
> It just is completely non-sensical for someone to say that it a person cheated on is at fault for not successfully restoring a marriage, especially when the cheating spouse is still in an affair fog and probably even still in contact with the AP and HAS TO DECIDE TO COME BACK TO THE MARRIAGE FOR THERE TO BE A MARRIAGE.
> 
> On what planet is is impossible for jld to acknowledge that could be true? Grid and everybody else might as well slice open their chests, lay their hearts on the ground, and let jld jump up and down on them in stiletto heels.



Dis 'ol Suthurn bohy is 'agettin a crush on yer masturfel reterik

Your words compelled me to copy this quote I used on another thread awhile back.

You virtually said what CS Lewis did.....


"You can hardly open 
a periodical without coming across the statement that what our civilization needs 
is more 'drive', or dynamism, or self-sacrifice, or 'creativity'. In a sort of ghastly 
simplicity we remove the organ and demand the function. We make men without 
chests and expect of them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honour and are 
shocked to find traitors in our midst. We castrate and bid the geldings be fruitful."

CS Lewis, Abolition of Man..... last paragraph Book 1


----------



## Chuck71

3Xnocharm said:


> Wife did him a favor filing for D, since he couldn't seem to do it for himself. He will be better off.


Of all people..... my mom, the reader of People magazine, watcher of E! Entertainment,

the maker of salmon patties and mashed potatoes, barely a HS education.... turned into Socrates

She made a PhD candidate "wise up" when she stated, "Window Cork did you a favor, she set you free."

But moms do have that tendency.... at least from what I have seen


----------



## Chuck71

TeddieG said:


> I agree with you - his focus should be on him. Somebody PLEASE explain to me why it is Grid's job to win his wife back and convince her to come home, and if he doesn't, HE's the failure, not HER????


My best female friend / IC fed me this crap right before I made WC "show her hand."

I did not get it.... at all. WC was reaching but not saying what I was wanting to hear....

I took a trip to "the lake" and decided it was a complete bowl of Bschit. We remained friends but

I fired her as an IC. Course "the lake" tends to have magical powers *eyeroll*


----------



## Evinrude58

What teddy said a out the uncertainty was absolutely true. It ripped me apart. That was what I couldn't take, especially since I knew with 99% certainty she was gone because she showed me she was and said she didn't love me. We all have bad habits and bad traits. When someone doesn't love you, imagine how those characteristics are amplified in their mind, on too if the resentment they already have built up. The sad fact is every word and every deed will have to be nearly perfect on your part, and there's still no guarantee. I hope you are am enough to do it. Based on your last post, I do think it's possible. But listen to mem, do not let her think you are just trying to be me nice guy and win her back. It won't work. Be firm and stoic in your dealings with her or there will never be an incentive for her to change her behavior. I am rooting for you. But I urge you to get the divorce taken care of. I am positive tag advice is right. Protect yourself while you still can. Once she gets over the guilt, you're screwed. You can still reconcile after the agreement is signed. Get it signed.
The sex is not wise, crushing to your detachment. But I know how it feels....


----------



## Chuck71

TeddieG said:


> I understand, Philly, and appreciate your advice, thank you, and am taking it to heart. I just drove home from work and realized that this is like deja vu all over again, a trigger. There was one really nice forum I was on for a while, for people with spouses in midlife crisis and cheating, and made some friends there who became friends IRL, and there was a woman there who had been there a long time. She was very subtle, and seemed nice and helpful at first, but the longer I was there, the longer I realized there was a clique of her followers; she had been told how wonderful she was for so long that she thought she was the answer to everyone's problems. She labeled and judged and diagnosed people, especially people who wouldn't follow her prescription, but she felt she could do and say whatever she wanted without accountability and she hurt a lot of people and drove a lot of people away until she and her followers were left. She lost all empathy and compassion and it was she who had all the answers, she had to answer to no one, explain herself to no one, could change her mind AND her advice. She made the forum toxic, and it was sad. She claimed to be reconciling but she lived on that forum and monitored everybody on it; some people questioned how she had time to reconcile and do that too, and of course, in time people left or were banned. She didn't own the forum legally, but she did in every other way. It was creepy. But whatever else anyone had going on, a divorce, a sick child, a crazy wandering spouse, what mattered the most was taking her temperature and how she perceived the treatment she received from everyone and whether they were prepared to bow at her feet. Of course I left in time, but I miss that place to this day. Even so, I know that most of the people, if not all, who were there when I was have most likely gone and are no longer there.
> 
> And I know that this is a wonderful place, and am glad to have found it now that my story is coming to the end I didn't want; at the same time i see that people of all sorts of experiences want the person they're trying to help see their POV because they want to help. There seem to be enough people here on a regular basis that one person isn't going to get control of the responses to real live hurting people in the middle of a divorce they didn't want from a spouse who cheated on them.


Remember.... some people want to be "top dog" at the junkyard rather than simply a 

"bottom of the rung" person, yet in paradise ...... 

Marx is whispering in my ear *wink*


----------



## Chuck71

gridcom said:


> Believe me, she wasn't looking for sex. But, she didn't run away either.
> 
> Mets!
> Beer!
> Goodnight


METS? NEW YORK METS? The Shea stadium Mets? The DWI(ght) Gooden / Darryl Strawberry Mets?

Wait....... wait a sec..... HEY

Wasn't ReGroup a Mets fan?

No....

Noooooooo.....

Can it be????????????????????????????????????????????? 

*smile*


----------



## Chuck71

ButtPunch said:


> You should have insisted that she be tested for STDs before considering to touch her.
> 
> She cheats and you pester her for sex. Not a good play IMO.
> 
> PS .... I made this very same mistake.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Them spider webs are dangerous aren't they?


----------



## Chuck71

Duguesclin said:


> Grid,
> 
> Your wife seems to be a very nice lady.
> 
> I am not suggesting what she did was right or even justified, but she seems to have a conscience. If she was really out to get you like some suggest on this thread, she would have gone after the alimony. She has not, which shows she cares.
> 
> It will be hard for you, but give her some space. Do not be on top of her all the time. You appear to me to be a little overwhelming. I think you talk too much. Pause and *listen* to her.
> 
> Go Mets (but the Cubs will win the world series, sorry)



NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

I once said I would consider talking to my XW again if the Cubs won the World Series.

They can't win..... NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

*smile* Would be nice if they did 

107 years is a long time


----------



## ButtPunch

I wish I had a dollar for every thread that the WS says she doesn't want alimony but when it gets to crunch time she wants everything. 

Do Not Put Much Faith in What She Says. 

She is a liar you know. 

Get her attorney to put no alimony in writing. 

Your in New York too. God help you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TeddieG

Evinrude58 said:


> What teddy said a out the uncertainty was absolutely true. It ripped me apart. That was what I couldn't take, especially since I knew with 99% certainty she was gone because she showed me she was and said she didn't love me. We all have bad habits and bad traits. When someone doesn't love you, imagine how those characteristics are amplified in their mind, on too if the resentment they already have built up. The sad fact is every word and every deed will have to be nearly perfect on your part, and there's still no guarantee. I hope you are am enough to do it. Based on your last post, I do think it's possible. But listen to mem, do not let her think you are just trying to be me nice guy and win her back. It won't work. Be firm and stoic in your dealings with her or there will never be an incentive for her to change her behavior. I am rooting for you. But I urge you to get the divorce taken care of. I am positive tag advice is right. Protect yourself while you still can. Once she gets over the guilt, you're screwed. You can still reconcile after the agreement is signed. Get it signed.
> The sex is not wise, crushing to your detachment. But I know how it feels....


I so agree with this, and that is ironic, because a year ago I would have said, avoid divorce if you can. It has taken h filing for divorce, AGAIN, for me to be able to set boundaries with him. He thought he would continue to bounce back and forth between me and OW, and all that changed was which one he was married to. That's in part because he's always been spoiled and managed to avoid consequences often in his life, and also because of the fact that there are two of him, due to his bi polar. The normal guys wants sanity, the depressed or manic guy wants the drama to feel alivea and the attention from the OW's family who were so happy to unload her that they treated him like a little prince. There's something about divorce, sadly, and the break from each other that follows, and the dealing with the reality of life after a divorce, that puts the errors and the pain of the past IN the past and provides the much-needed space for introspection and growth and healing.

Now, five years ago, hell even a year ago, I would have been the LAST person to say that. When my h waffled after filing for divorce five years ago, I thought it meant he was realizing what his life would be like with OW and how horrible it would be and he was letting go of his one link to sanity in the world and wanted to come home, but it wasn't entirely and only that (although I think that was there for the normal him). Again, keeping in mind his mental health issues and his depression, I realized he wanted to keep one foot in each world. And given his mental health, it was not just, merely, cake-eating. It was that he saw the OW and her kid as a kind of reversion to some issues he hadn't finished when his kids were growing up, when his wife cheated on him and they broke up. I met him long after that divorce, but I had no idea the unresolved issues he still had over that. They almost reconciled, but the cheating was too much and he had doubts about one of the kids' paternity, as it turns out. How he works that out with OW and her kid, I'm not sure, but I'm sure that's part of it. 

As you can see, I had a lot of compassion for my SBTXH and not a lot of derision, but I am now increasingly convinced that despite his mental health issues, he needs to feel the consequences of his choices. He often told me that he needed to escape OW because when he was old and had dementia she would leave him in a nursing home in a dirty diaper in a wheelchair and would spend all his money, and he may have been feeding me info so that I could find a way to help him break loose, or to keep me attached. But ultimately, it was up to him to deal with his addiction to the OW's drama that he seems to need so badly to feel alive in the midst of his depression. Yet he would often say, when he would pack his truck to go back to her, why in the hell am I doing this? One time before he left, he changed the lightbulb on the front porch because I had told him when all this first broke out, to no avail, that the door was open and the porchlight on. 

BUT there's nothing like a dose of reality to help somebody see the light. And I realize you guys are struggling financially. When h threatened divorce one of my fears was the change to my standard of living, even though I make more than he does and his debt will go with him. Never let fear dictate your decisions. And really, one last thing before I got for a while, because I really DO have a dissertation to write by December (four chapters, which normally take a year, but at least all I have to have is a chitty first draft to revise in January), one thing screams at me. 

Think really long and hard about whether the reason you want to reconcile is to redeem yourself from what you feel you did in the past that led to this event with your w. Is that your lode stone, your gold standard, your holy grail? I know you say you are not pursuing reconciliation at all costs, and I believe you, but I also believe we all have motivations deep down aside that at various times we are not aware of, and as we heal and work through, they jump out at us. Are you going to feel a reprieve or feel forgiven or feel that you have overcome who you were and what you did by reconciling? Yesterday on my back porch, where I enjoy coffee in the morning or a beer after work and do some of my best meditation, I realized the sadness of the fact that I have worked on myself and my own FOO issues (again, I did it years ago) and was my best self when I met my h, something about being with him (his covert mental health issues that were subtle and overtook us both slowly) robbed me of some important pieces of myself, and now I am putting myself back together . . . and at the same time there is an incredible sadness that I am going to continue to improve and work on me and get me back, and I feel really badly that I am going to be a better person after my marriage than I was during it, because I wonder if I had been the best me then, would things have played out this way? If I were honest, I'd say yes, probably, because the variable is him and his depression and midlife crisis. But I'll always wonder. I wasn't prepared to deal with a bi polar man who collapsed and fell to pieces at the first sign of a physical issue that was fairly easily fixed. Living with Peter Pan was hard; trying to keep the clock rolled back because I intuitively knew he didn't want to grow up took up a lot of my effort, and the past five years have undone many of my efforts to age gracefully. I can't get me back until he's out of my life, and I may be a better person if he wants to reconcile, but he has to be too. He chose to cheat. I chose to respond and adapt and do what I could to deal with the changes in him as our relationship and marriage progressed, but became prominent 7 years ago. When he moved out 7 years ago, it's like a demon left the building, and the calm and the peace in my house was profound. Sometimes a divorce introduces a badly-needed break, for new and important work to begin.


----------



## ConanHub

farsidejunky said:


> Easy, tough guy.
> 
> Grid has admitted to being abusive to her.
> 
> And while I rarely agree with JLD'S thoughts on infidelity, that is no reason to assume that her dynamic erases any credibility she may or may not have.
> 
> That is out of line, and sounds like frustration speaking.
> 
> There is room for opinions we don't agree with on this forum, right?


It was a fair challenge to her position. She easily blames men for the harm their wives do, at least in the case of infidelity. She claims men are supposed to treat women like children.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

Evinrude58 said:


> What teddy said a out the uncertainty was absolutely true. It ripped me apart. That was what I couldn't take, especially since I knew with 99% certainty she was gone because she showed me she was and said she didn't love me. We all have bad habits and bad traits. When someone doesn't love you, imagine how those characteristics are amplified in their mind, on too if the resentment they already have built up. The sad fact is every word and every deed will have to be nearly perfect on your part, and there's still no guarantee. I hope you are am enough to do it. Based on your last post, I do think it's possible. But listen to mem, do not let her think you are just trying to be me nice guy and win her back. It won't work. Be firm and stoic in your dealings with her or there will never be an incentive for her to change her behavior. I am rooting for you. But I urge you to get the divorce taken care of. I am positive tag advice is right. Protect yourself while you still can. Once she gets over the guilt, you're screwed. You can still reconcile after the agreement is signed. Get it signed.
> The sex is not wise, crushing to your detachment. But I know how it feels....


I agree...... tightrope walking is dangerous and..... unhealthy.

Leave the tightrope walking to the Wallendas


----------



## LongWalk

Good post, Teddie. Please don't write in red. Hard to read.

Grid,

You are co-founder and owner operator of an NGO incorporated under the family law code of NY state. The traditional purpose of these NGOs was to conceive and raise children whose parents had patience for one another because they promised sexual exclusivity until death. A woman could embrace pregnancy and major changes to her body, the loss of freedom that comes with small children, etc., in exchange for the promise that her husband would not look for other sex partners while she nursed the babies at night and had no appetite for his desire.

These NGO have traditionally taken the name of the man. We men are so insecure about the paternity of our children and the fidelity of our wives that we keep on with this tradition, although it makes no sense in terms of gender equality.

Marriage is an NGO that addresses concerns of both men and women. Sexual fidelity is one of the central tenets, unless a couple opts for open marriage.

When your wife had the affair and file for divorce she cancelled the fidelity clause and fired you from the board of directors. By having sex with your wife while the NGO is in the process of dissolution, you have implicitly accepted an open marriage. Indeed, your wife told you that under certain circumstances cheating was still possible.

We posters have little idea of what was going on in your wife's head when you reconnected sexually. Perhaps she was giving you pity sex and thinking, "thank God, I only have to hang on for a few more months." She may also have felt herself reconnecting with you. Her mind have been one track or filled with a myriad of contradictory emotions. We are only hearing about it from you and you don't seem to know.

This is hardly strange, though, given that your wife was able to conceal a long EA from you under the guise of work was fulfilling her.

Since you have broken the ice with sex. Maybe you should get back into the same bed at night to sleep. Are there still don't touch me vibes that drive you away. Can you spoon? Can you hold her without sexual tension in play, caress her? Can you get her to talk? Is there anyway that she used to touch you that she has resumed?

One clue that we have about your wife's character is that she likes music. She is a feeling person. OM is very keyed into this. His courtship technique is to amplify her sensitivity back to her thought the genius of others. Jld is right that to reconnect with your wife you need to speak this love language to her.

There is nothing to stop you from writing your wife poems. Just make sure they are good enough to read. 

The 180 that you were pursuing was a cold lake that you had to swim. It cleared your mind. You forsook that open water by plunging into a swamp where you alternate between patches of grass, clumps of trees and sucking mud. This is also one route to higher ground but it can be confusing.

What did the filing say about custody? 50/50?

How are your daughters these days?

Are you going to pursue your wife sexually or do you want her to initiate? 

re: Baseball
Joe DiMaggio could not stop Marilyn Monroe from cheating. It had nothing to do with him. She had a shyte childhood and was not capable of dealing with it. Her mother suffered schizophrenia. Her hospitalization orphaned Monroe. Her third husband Arthur Miller was a great playwright who could dissect human motivations and behavior. He couldn't fix her either.

Your wife probably is not broken like Monroe was. But in the end she has to address her issues if your marriage is going to be saved. 

You have a compass now. When the arrow points in the direction of "self respect" you can walk forward, even in the swamp.

GutPunch once said "if it hurts, don't do it." If having dubious sex with an unremorseful, unloving WW is going to make eventual divorce even more painful, don't do it.

If your wife wants earnest HB sex that is going get you communicating, maybe you should go for it.


----------



## farsidejunky

ConanHub said:


> It was a fair challenge to her position. She easily blames men for the harm their wives do, at least in the case of infidelity. She claims men are supposed to treat women like children.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Subjective and opinionated, not factual. People define how children are to be treated differently.

I am all about the debate.

I have called her out when she has been inappropriate.

But to take her dynamic and use it to question her credibility is wrong.


----------



## ConanHub

farsidejunky said:


> Subjective and opinionated, not factual. People define how children are to be treated differently.
> 
> I am all about the debate.
> 
> I have called her out when she has been inappropriate.
> 
> But to take her dynamic and use it to question her credibility is wrong.


I disagree on the dynamic. I think it is perfectly valid and fair.

I've had it done to me on numerous occasions. It helps understanding and also help inform.

jld has her own, fairly rare situation that doesn't apply to most and is not superior to or desired by many.

I asked a fair challenge. I did not try to quiet her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Grid, I am not sure if you are familiar with this woman or not, but she has been referenced a few times on TAM. This is from one of her talks on infidelity:

PEREL:_ Every affair will redefine a relationship and every couple will determine what the legacy of the affair will be. Betrayal in a relationship comes in many forms.* There are many ways that we betray our partner - with contempt, with neglect, with indifference, with violence. Sexual betrayal is only one way to hurt a partner. In other words, the victim of an affair is not always the victim of the marriage.*_


Esther Perel: How Can Couples Rebuild Trust After An Affair? : NPR


----------



## Chuck71

ButtPunch said:


> I wish I had a dollar for every thread that the WS says she doesn't want alimony but when it gets to crunch time she wants everything.
> 
> Do Not Put Much Faith in What She Says.
> 
> She is a liar you know.
> 
> Get her attorney to put no alimony in writing.
> 
> Your in New York too. God help you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How's it go..... "I just want a quick and clean D and...... I still want us to be friends."

"I still love you but not like a W should." K... D, full speed ahead.

After the lawyers get involved and she sees you ARE detaching....

"I want EVERYTHING, the furniture, your clothes (I DID pick them out even though you paid for them),

the kitchen sink and the WATER DRIP from the kitchen sink."

50k, observe, learn, best for a Padawan

Didn't Conrad say once, "I live in NY, I have a vagina, I get whatever I want"


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

farsidejunky said:


> Subjective and opinionated, not factual. People define how children are to be treated differently.


You just described every post in this thread. Even the ones not pertaining to children or jld. 



> I am all about the debate.
> 
> I have called her out when she has been inappropriate.


 Not right now, you aren't about debate. You keyed in on what you felt was a slight and tried to destroy his credibility. 



> But to take her dynamic and use it to question her credibility is wrong.


The current argument has you and others doing the same thing, but only recognizing it when it happens to jld. This is what I meant by irony TeddieG. People are now sniping at each other because some are in two camps. Conan has an opinion on her advice and it may ding her credibility to some, others it does not. It is a subjective opinion just like any in this thread. 

Is it too direct for you? Apparently, but it is a valid argument. I take advice from many people on this board and it is based on expereince. If someone who is divorced says R never works, I'm going to listen with a slightly jaded ear. I'm going to listen a little more closely to someone who has gone through R and has what they believe is now a successful marriage. Someone who has done neither, is going to be cherry picked, but partially disregarded on certain things. You know, when someone mentions removing the OM isn't that important. I think some of what jld says is extremely valid, but it is through the lens of a non-affair based relationship. So, that does need to be mentioned and her credibility during affair advice should be noted.


----------



## turnera

My SIL just wanted to walk away with what she brought in 20 years ago, so she could go be with her high school lover. By the end, she had hundreds of thousands of dollars that my brother had built up.


----------



## Chuck71

turnera said:


> My SIL just wanted to walk away with what she brought in 20 years ago, so she could go be with her high school lover. By the end, she had hundreds of thousands of dollars that my brother had built up.


If I worked for EF Hutton..... I would say that was a 

"sound financial strategy for monetary benefit" 

course 'ol EF didn't see the wreckage it caused.....


----------



## Chuck71

ConanHub said:


> It was a fair challenge to her position. She easily blames men for the harm their wives do, at least in the case of infidelity. She claims men are supposed to treat women like children.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I clearly see the logic in your post as in parent to child. 

When one pulls everything back and sees the core

your post is in congruence with TeddieG......

and thousands of others since I have lurked here the last three years


----------



## MEM2020

This board is strewn with the marital corpses - that were killed by 

*CHRONIC INTRA-MARITAL BETRAYAL*

For reasons that elude me, it's WAY MORE acceptable to treat your spouse poorly over a long period of time than to stray. 




jld said:


> Grid, I am not sure if you are familiar with this woman or not, but she has been referenced a few times on TAM. This is from one of her talks on infidelity:
> 
> PEREL:_ Every affair will redefine a relationship and every couple will determine what the legacy of the affair will be. Betrayal in a relationship comes in many forms.* There are many ways that we betray our partner - with contempt, with neglect, with indifference, with violence. Sexual betrayal is only one way to hurt a partner. In other words, the victim of an affair is not always the victim of the marriage.*_
> 
> 
> Esther Perel: How Can Couples Rebuild Trust After An Affair? : NPR


----------



## ConanHub

MEM11363 said:


> This board is strewn with the marital corpses - that were killed by
> 
> *CHRONIC INTRA-MARITAL BETRAYAL*
> 
> For reasons that elude me, it's WAY MORE acceptable to treat your spouse poorly over a long period of time than to stray.


Not here. Just note the difference between neglect or not living up to marital needs over a period of time and banging some idiot.

It is like comparing malnutrition do to neglect to a psychopath that got their hands on a machete and started hacking their family to pieces.

I don't approve of malnutrition or murder by machete but the differences need noted as do the correct actions to respond.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

Philly,
I want to clarify something. 

I 100% agree the OM HAS TO GO. The question in my mind isn't: Does he have to go?

It is instead: How to get rid of him. 

I can respect a betrayed spouse who - goes ballistic on Dday and says. 

Anything less than:
1. Immediate NC 
2. Hysterical bonding sex
3. Total disclosure 

And I'm filing - and won't look back. 
-------
I can respect it - IF IT IS TRUE, and if indeed they've been a great partner. Not if it is a manipulative bluff.

-------
I can ALSO respect someone who looks in the mirror - realizes they have been neglecting and/or mistreating their partner for a LONG TIME, who tries to recon. 

Those recons are difficult - take some time - and typically don't succeed because the BS has gone into a hyper-vigilant, command and control mode. 





phillybeffandswiss said:


> You just described every post in this thread. Even the ones not pertaining to children or jld.
> 
> Not right now, you aren't about debate. You keyed in on what you felt was a slight and tried to destroy his credibility.
> 
> The current argument has you and others doing the same thing, but only recognizing it when it happens to jld. This is what I meant by irony TeddieG. People are now sniping at each other because some are in two camps. Conan has an opinion on her advice and it may ding her credibility to some, others it does not. It is a subjective opinion just like any in this thread.
> 
> Is it too direct for you? Apparently, but it is a valid argument. I take advice from many people on this board and it is based on expereince. If someone who is divorced says R never works, I'm going to listen with a slightly jaded ear. I'm going to listen a little more closely to someone who has gone through R and has what they believe is now a successful marriage. Someone who has done neither, is going to be cherry picked, but partially disregarded on certain things. You know, when someone mentions removing the OM isn't that important. I think some of what jld says is extremely valid, but it is through the lens of a non-affair based relationship. So, that does need to be mentioned and her credibility during affair advice should be noted.


----------



## MEM2020

Conan,
I respect you and believe you have rock solid values. My sister married a guy like you. 

That said, I don't agree with the psychopath analogy. 

Usually folks who affair are doing it to make themselves feel better, not to make their partner feel worse. 

I am not saying it's ok. 

I'd rather have an acute, treatable medical condition than a chronic one. 







ConanHub said:


> Not here. Just note the difference between neglect or not living up to marital needs over a period of time and banging some idiot.
> 
> It is like comparing malnutrition do to neglect to a psychopath that got their hands on a machete and started hacking their family to pieces.
> 
> I don't approve of malnutrition or murder by machete but the differences need noted as do the correct actions to respond.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

MEM11363 said:


> Conan,
> I respect you and believe you have rock solid values. My sister married a guy like you.
> 
> That said, I don't agree with the psychopath analogy.
> 
> Usually folks who affair are doing it to make themselves feel better, not to make their partner feel worse.
> 
> I am not saying it's ok.
> 
> I'd rather have an acute, treatable medical condition than a chronic one.


We will disagree on this one. Psychopaths do things to make themselves feel better as well regardless of what it costs others.

Infidelity is brutal murder of marriage and family to make someone feel better.

Other issues are indeed serious and could be compared to untreated diabetes or other diseases that could be avoided or easily treated.

I don't approve of starving a marriage or making it vulnerable to a disease. I also don't approve of murdering a marriage.

There are simply different actions to take if a patient has cancer or if they are being brutalized by someone who just wants to feel better about themselves and doesn't care that they are harming several people to get a high.

Thank you for the compliment.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

ConanHub said:


> I don't approve of starving a marriage or making it vulnerable to a disease. I also don't approve of murdering a marriage.


But either way, it dies.

I have read that some marriages are much stronger after having dealt with an affair. There were deep, honest talks that came about that might not have happened otherwise.

I doubt any partners _want_ to go through infidelity, but some seem to use it as an opportunity for growth.


----------



## ConanHub

jld said:


> But either way, it dies.
> 
> I have read that some marriages are much stronger after having dealt with an affair. There were deep, honest talks that came about that might not have happened otherwise.
> 
> I doubt any partners _want_ to go through infidelity, but some seem to use it as an opportunity for growth.


Seen it first hand on several occasions so I wholeheartedly agree.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ButtPunch

IMO....what killed the marriage is a moot point. Either he killed it with a thousand little cuts or she did with the affair. Point is .....SHE FILED and the OP best believe her. 

How can the OP become attractive to his WW again, I ask. It is not going to be by being Mr. Nice Guy and pestering her. He's got to detach and show her he will be fine without her. 

Maybe then she may take an interest and they can reach a common ground for a starting point. This has to be her decision and he needs to 180 until she makes it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

Infidelity is not the worst betrayal. Suicide absolutely hurts everyone more.

A drunk who crashes the car with kids inside worse than a fornicator.

Child beating is also betrayal. Certain emotional abuse is also worse than infidelity.

Infidelity has been decriminalized and is not an infraction of any civil code in most jurisdictions.

It is rationally to argue that a spouse who destroys his or mate's self esteem creates the conditions for an affair.

I doubt that Grid was that abusive, but what do we have to reach a judgement?

My father routinely told my mother that she came from country of losers. Wales, my mother's homeland was in every way inferior, according to him. My mother was surely very hurt inside, but to be put down like this was simply normal since the English are really the nation above the others. 

So there is another form of profound betrayal, contempt for a spouse's identity.

All of the men and women who insist that their children take their ethnic and religious identity without offering free will any role also betray.

One big difference between Grid and his wife is contrition. Grid has gone through his performance and offered self criticism. His wife has not really addressed her misconduct.


----------



## jld

She refused alimony. I think that shows a lot of self-punishment.


----------



## MEM2020

Yes

And Grid - this is a good news / bad news deal.

She may still feel lust for the OM. BUT I don't believe that's her primary driver at this point. 

Instead - I believe that your incessant focus on her betrayal is driving her from the house. I believe that is why she filed. 




jld said:


> She refused alimony. I think that shows a lot of self-punishment.


----------



## ConanHub

LongWalk said:


> Infidelity is not the worst betrayal. Suicide absolutely hurts everyone more.
> 
> A drunk who crashes the car with kids inside worse than a fornicator.
> 
> Child beating is also betrayal. Certain emotional abuse is also worse than infidelity.
> 
> Infidelity has been decriminalized and is not an infraction of any civil code in most jurisdictions.
> 
> It is rationally to argue that a spouse who destroys his or mate's self esteem creates the conditions for an affair.
> 
> I doubt that Grid was that abusive, but what do we have to reach a judgement?
> 
> My father routinely told my mother that she came from country of losers. Wales, my mother's homeland was in every way inferior, according to him. My mother was surely very hurt inside, but to be put down like this was simply normal since the English are really the nation above the others.
> 
> So there is another form of profound betrayal, contempt for a spouse's identity.
> 
> All of the men and women who insist that their children take their ethnic and religious identity without offering free will any role also betray.
> 
> One big difference between Grid and his wife is contrition. Grid has gone through his performance and offered self criticism. His wife has not really addressed her misconduct.


It isn't even comparable. I have seen nearly everything people can do that is bad in relationships first hand.

Infidelity is easily in the top five. 

I can deal with my wife neglecting, abusing me or nearly any other form of mistreatment she might, and has, tossed my way.

We can, and have, worked through our issues over 24 years.

She goes out and bangs a moron to make herself feel better and she will have forfeited any and all marital considerations.

Different actions have different consequences.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

M2 shares this viewpoint. 




ConanHub said:


> It isn't even comparable. I have seen nearly everything people can do that is bad in relationships first hand.
> 
> Infidelity is easily in the top five.
> 
> I can deal with my wife neglecting, abusing me or nearly any other form of mistreatment she might, and has, tossed my way.
> 
> We can, and have, worked through our issues over 24 years.
> 
> She goes out and bangs a moron to make herself feel better and she will have forfeited any and all marital considerations.
> 
> Different actions have different consequences.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> She refused alimony. I think that shows a lot of self-punishment.


I just laugh at this. Has this been signed off by the judge. 
If not, its meaningless words.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

jld said:


> She refused alimony. I think that shows a lot of self-punishment.



Perhaps Grid will clarify if the divorce terms she offered were part of the filing or her verbal offer.

Punishment, jld's interpretation, is one take. Another is that she wants to speed up the D. Also, she may be emphasizing her rejection of Grid's money because she resents his assertions that he has been good provider.

Her motivations are unclear at this point.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

MEM11363 said:


> Those recons are difficult - take some time - and typically don't succeed because the BS has gone into a hyper-vigilant, command and control mode.


Gonna disagree because I see this as blame shifting because of your choice of words. At this point, I've said my piece.

Good luck grid I hope you make a choice that works for you, then your kids and finally your wife. If the order irritates some, oh well, it's the way I feel. 

I just want things fixed, one ways or the other, for the kids.


----------



## Evinrude58

Anything that the WW says at this point after filing should be verified by paperwork or considered meaningless. Until the paperwork is signed and notarized, anybody can change their mind. When it comes to taking care of her own happiness at your expense, grid, realize she already proved she would lie and betray you. Fooled me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. I think she does mean what she told you about alimony. eXACTLY why I say do the legal thing now. The reconciliation time is not ripe anyway. It's time for self- preservation in your part. Grid. Mark my words, don't let them come back to haunt you.
From experience!!!! Mine said all these things, then tried to get a lawyer and change the deal and screw me. Yours will too if your not careful. Human nature.


----------



## MEM2020

Deep sigh. 

My mistake. I intended to say:

These recons don't typically go well IF the BS goes into a hyper vigilant, command and control mode. 

I also recognize that the BS has to exercise judgement. And that - being firm on boundaries can save the marriage - IF - and it is a GIANT IF - the BS is not afraid of divorce. 

The absence of fear - is often the most important factor in these situations. 

And for those of you who are getting angry with me. I don't blame you. To be very clear on this point: I am posting SOLELY in my capacity as a contributor here. Not as a mod. So - you are welcome to be as unfiltered with me as you like. 

I am not trying to antagonize anyone. Simply sharing a viewpoint with Grid. Just as you all are - trying to be helpful. But aware that this topic is painful for many. 


QUOTE=phillybeffandswiss;13846282]Gonna disagree because I see this as blame shifting because of your choice of words. At this point, I've said my piece.

Good luck grid I hope you make a choice that works for you, then your kids and finally your wife. If the order irritates some, oh well, it's the way I feel. 

I just want things fixed, one ways or the other, for the kids.[/QUOTE]


----------



## LongWalk

Mem wrote:


> These recons don't typically go well IF the BS goes into a hyper vigilant, command and control mode.


This is a good point. If a couple's relationship broke down in part because communication between them was very poor, it is possible that the ears pricked up, barking and growling attitude reminds the WS of how the relationship stuck in negative feedback. 

That dysfunction in communication may lead the WS so simply conclude, there is no or rather too little upside in this relationship. Does the monologue in Grid's wife's sound like this?



> I know I love this person at some level, but I cannot stand the way they have treated me for years and they are still doing it. My betrayal was a betrayal at all levels. Fvcking the dip at work hurt the husband, the kids. I have lost respect for myself. Even the dog would hate me if it knew... the affair made what was bad about him even worse. It's my fault.
> 
> I need to creep off and remake myself, to be a better person. I wish I could stay, but BS is never going to be loving again. He was already not the guy I married and that guy is a memory. I am not the person I thought I was either, I guess. No, not guess it's true. I am shyte, Grid says so and it's true.
> 
> We need to end this. It was bad and now it's disaster.


If this is true, the 180 is actually a way to break the negative communication. With an end to accusations and anger, the WS has to look inward and examine themselves even more deeply.

Is it possible for a cheater to be genuinely remorseful but to still conclude that the situation is hopeless?

If so, why? Are they too stupid? Too lazy?

For there to be any chance of reconciliation, the WS needs to change their conclusion. Happiness is not waiting out their after divorce. It is something that needs to be done inside themselves.

It must be really terrible to be movie star, man or woman, who can play these fantastic characters who do amazing things because they have golden 17 jewel clockwork inside but they themselves are to some degree faking it. They meet another star like themselves who appears perfect. They marry. Get to know each other and they say, "shyte, he or she is just fvcking actor/actress"


----------



## Keepin-my-head-up

Aloha Grid,

Kudos on agreeing to mediation if it gets to that point.
As far as the no alimony goes.

Get it notarized, legalized or whatevirized.

Who knows what the hidden meaning behind it is.
The literal is no alimony if you do get divorced!

You are obviously working on two life altering projects!

1: trying to save the marriage
2: working on an amicable divorce as much as possible.

Two contradictory directions.
What a mind f#$k!

It seems the saving of the marriage is your priority by your writing.

I know your wife is working on these 2 things as well.
What side does it seem her priority is on?

Just trying to figure out the complexities.

Do you guys have a time frame or some way to gauge progress?

I understand with the "filing", the timeframe is when the judge grants the divorce.
But when do you guys begin discussion to rescind the filing?


----------



## jld

To me, she is clearly sorry for the affair. And grid is sorry for the emotional and verbal abuse. 

As he takes a step back and gets in control of his emotions, and she gets a chance to breathe and work through her feelings, I believe they will be able to put their marriage back together. The kids will be grateful.


----------



## LongWalk

re: Divorce timeline
Grid has 20 days to respond to her filing.


> New York’s October 2010 no-fault ground is irretrievable breakdown of the marriage. You don’t have to live separately to have a no-fault divorce. However, you must reach an agreement regarding property, support and custody before a New York court will grant you a no-fault divorce. Such an agreement is identical to a separation agreement in content. The basic difference is that you and your spouse don’t have to live apart to draft a marital settlement agreement; you can file for divorce on this no-fault ground and continue to live together while you work out an agreement. You can be divorced as soon as you've done so.


Whatever Grid's wife put in the first complaint might have included all the details for property and custody. So she certainly can change her position.

jld,

With all respect to your insight, some of which is undeniably correct and humane, you are wrong about one point. Yes, Grid has to be a better guy. He admits this. His wife is not truly remorseful. She told him that under certain circumstances, she (or worse) every(wo)man could cheat. So she is requesting an open marriage. This is may be a sort trick. Is Grid now supposed to have revenge affair because she is understanding that sometimes people just have to meet others without their clothes for a night or two? After he does it, both of them are morally degraded. What then?

How do you think Grid should respond to the divorce complaint?


----------



## TeddieG

MEM11363 said:


> The absence of fear - is often the most important factor in these situations.


THIS!! :iagree::iagree:

When I lost the fear of what my life would be like and what would happen to my mentally disabled h if he married the abusive OW, I could REALLY move forward. 

And MEM, thanks for taking the high road and restating your position and correcting the impression inadvertantly left by your post.


----------



## jld

LongWalk said:


> jld,
> 
> With all respect to your insight, some of which is undeniably correct and humane, you are wrong about one point. Yes, Grid has to be a better guy. He admits this. His wife is not truly remorseful. She told him that under certain circumstances, she (or worse) every(wo)man could cheat. So she is requesting an open marriage. This is may be a sort trick. Is Grid now supposed to have revenge affair because she is understanding that sometimes people just have to meet others without their clothes for a night or two? After he does it, both of them are morally degraded. What then?
> 
> How do you think Grid should respond to the divorce complaint?


I don't think she is requesting an open marriage, LW. I don't think she plans to cheat again, either. And I think her words, that every person could cheat under certain conditions, should not be taken as some sort of final, definitive statement from her that she will do this again. I highly doubt she will. 

Feelings change, and I am convinced that as grid changes, his wife's feelings for him will become stronger and more loving. I truly believe he can re-earn her trust. He has enough self-confidence to look at himself honestly and turn this marriage around. 

I remember reading once that Dr. Harley of Marriage Builders said that a wayward may not express complete contrition right away. It can take time. 

Patience, and consistent effort from the betrayed husband, in this case, are needed. Iirc, Dr. Harley said a year of consistent loving effort may be needed to re-earn a wife's trust. 

The way I see it, grid should just keep working on himself, getting control of his emotions, putting that budget together, and moving forward in confidence that his example is going to benefit his family.

I think any plan for divorce should be abandoned. She filed out of fear from that threat he made. He must no longer act out of his emotions, but out of the belief that his family is better off intact, and that to that end, that he is capable of re-earning his wife's trust. He needs to be patient but persistent, and take a long term perspective. He will definitely grow from this experience.

Have you ever been in a group that was squabbling, LW? What happens when even one person in the group decides to refrain from emotional outbursts, shows a logical plan that can get the group moving forward, and then starts moving forward with that plan, encouraging people along the way? 

People often follow that leadership. I think that could happen here.


----------



## Thundarr

MEM11363 said:


> These recons don't typically go well IF the BS goes into a hyper vigilant, command and control mode.
> 
> I also recognize that the BS has to exercise judgement. And that - being firm on boundaries can save the marriage - IF - and it is a GIANT IF - the BS is not afraid of divorce.
> 
> The absence of fear - is often the most important factor in these situations.


I agree that fear is often the most important factor. Fear is what prevents us from admitting that we don't have control. But what a relief when we accept that we only control our own actions and reactions. Hyper vigilance and damage control mode is a ton of emotional weight and it's self sabotaging because it makes people pull away and rebel more.


----------



## LongWalk

jld said:


> I don't think she is requesting an open marriage, LW. I don't think she plans to cheat again, either. And I think her words, that every person could cheat under certain conditions, should not be taken as some sort of final, definitive statement from her that she will do this again. I highly doubt she will.


Implicitly she has. As BP pointed out, some people perhaps a minority will not cheat. By making that statement she absolved herself from criticism, because if anybody could, then it can't be that bad. If there is chocolate cake in the, sooner or later everyone is going to become a cake eater.

This is not true. However, just because someone would never cheat doesn't make them a moral person. 



> Feelings change, and I am convinced that as grid changes, his wife's feelings for him will become stronger and more loving. I truly believe he can re-earn her trust. He has enough self-confidence to look at himself honestly and turn this marriage around.


Sure. But that self confidence must include the idea that he can live without her, especially f she is not good for him.



> I remember reading once that Dr. Harley of Marriage Builders said that a wayward may not express complete contrition right away. It can take time.


Sure. Someone who is love can hardly switch off their feelings for the AP at once, unless they are shocked. Divorce papers and the 180 generally catch a wayward's attention. 

Grid's wife reads him better than he reads her. She knows that his love is beginning to waver. Although she is "not feeling it", she may not like losing his devotion.



> Patience, and consistent effort from the betrayed husband, in this case, are needed. Iirc, Dr. Harley said a year of consistent loving effort may be needed to re-earn a wife's trust.


Sure. How long will it take for her to re-earn his trust?



> The way I see it, grid should just keep working on himself, getting control of his emotions, putting that budget together, and moving forward in confidence that his example is going to benefit his family.


Cannot hurt.



> I think *any plan for divorce should be abandoned*. She filed out of fear from that threat he made. He must no longer act out of his emotions, but out of the belief that his family is better off intact, and that to that end, that he is capable of re-earning his wife's trust. He needs to be patient but persistent, and take a long term perspective. He will definitely grow from this experience.


Grid must respond to her filing. She can apply to the court to dismiss or withdraw the petition to divorce. He cannot. Leaning on her to stop the divorce is weak. She knows that he didn't want divorce, the decision is entirely hers. Maybe once he counter files, she cannot unilaterally stop the process.



> Have you ever been in a group that was squabbling, LW? What happens when even one person in the group decides to refrain from emotional outbursts, shows a logical plan that can get the group moving forward, and then starts moving forward with that plan, encouraging people along the way?
> 
> People often follow that leadership. I think that could happen here.


Sure. But she has forced him to respond to a divorce petition. When are they supposed to divide their property and vacation time? Is not working on the separation and divorce plan leadership or conflict avoidance?


----------



## jld

LongWalk said:


> Implicitly she has. As BP pointed out, some people perhaps a minority will not cheat. By making that statement she absolved herself from criticism, because if anybody could, then it can't be that bad. If there is chocolate cake in the, sooner or later everyone is going to become a cake eater.
> 
> I disagree with your interpretation. I think she was trying to be as honest as possible. I do not believe she was giving a declaration of intent.
> 
> This is not true. However, just because someone would never cheat doesn't make them a moral person.
> 
> Of course. An absence of one type of immorality does not make a person good by default.
> 
> Did you read that quote by Esther Perel?
> 
> Sure. But that self confidence must include the idea that he can live without her, especially if she is not good for him.
> 
> I think at this point he is best served by considering himself the leader of the family as a whole. I think that is the way of a family man.
> 
> Sure. Someone who is love can hardly switch off their feelings for the AP at once, unless they are shocked. Divorce papers and the 180 generally catch a wayward's attention.
> 
> It is still going to take time for her heart to heal. He needs patience.
> 
> Grid's wife reads him better than he reads her. She knows that his love is beginning to waver. Although she is "not feeling it", she may not like losing his devotion.
> 
> Disagree with the idea she is trying to play him. I think she is just trying to pull herself together.
> 
> Sure. How long will it take for her to re-earn his trust?
> 
> As long as it takes. The more he works at it, the shorter it will likely be, though.
> 
> Cannot hurt.
> 
> Will definitely help.
> 
> Grid must respond to her filing. She can apply to the court to dismiss or withdraw the petition to divorce. He cannot. Leaning on her to stop the divorce is weak. She knows that he didn't want divorce, the decision is entirely hers. Maybe once he counter files, she cannot unilaterally stop the process.
> 
> Not a lawyer here, but imo, a sincere, humble talk with her, followed by patience and persistence in working on his issues could get that dismissal or withdrawal going. It never should have gotten that far to start with. She reacted to his threat.
> 
> Sure. But she has forced him to respond to a divorce petition. When are they supposed to divide their property and vacation time? Is not working on the separation and divorce plan leadership or conflict avoidance?
> 
> Again, if he had not threatened, if he had pursued a path of sincere change through gaining control of his emotions and reaching out to her in humility and empathy, this filing surely never would have happened. That, imo, is the path of leadership, not leading a separation discussion.
> 
> LW, I think I believe far more at this point in grid's ability to lead a restoration of his family than you do. Would you agree with that?


----------



## jld

jld said:


> Grid, I am not sure if you are familiar with this woman or not, but she has been referenced a few times on TAM. This is from one of her talks on infidelity:
> 
> PEREL:_ Every affair will redefine a relationship and every couple will determine what the legacy of the affair will be. Betrayal in a relationship comes in many forms.* There are many ways that we betray our partner - with contempt, with neglect, with indifference, with violence. Sexual betrayal is only one way to hurt a partner. In other words, the victim of an affair is not always the victim of the marriage.*_
> 
> 
> Esther Perel: How Can Couples Rebuild Trust After An Affair? : NPR


Reposting this for easy access for you, LW.


----------



## Evinrude58

Grid did say he made threats. But still, she filed. She did not have to. This woman knows him, and knew he absolutely didn't want a divorce as well as we do. He just wanted her to stop working with the OM.

If grids lawyer says there is no way she COULD get alimony, and everything would go a certain way no matter what happened, or if her mind changing had no effect on the out one of the legal part of the divorce, I think grid might have the opportunity to keep trying. He will have to find out those answers. If her mind changing could greatly affect the cost if his divorce, his main concentration should be getting a fair divorce.

The problem nobody seems to have a way to solve, is that mrs grid doesn't live him. Do you guys think that can change? If so, how? And how can he be expected to live not knowing if his wife loves him for vast amounts of time? Not knowing if she is just biding her time until a more wealthy suitor shows himself? 

What grid thought he had with his wife seems irretrievable to me. He should work on himself? How? He is who he is. I believe the lightning bolt he's been hit with is impetus enough for change on the treatment of his wife in many ways. If that doesn't work, or his wife won't give him the opportunity to work on it with her, he's better off looking for another person to start working on things with.
Someone who is better with finances, better at communication, better at keeping their zipper up, and who actually loves him.
I think he would find he may have a totally different dynamic with someone else. Yes, his girls are going to suffer badly. But they will suffer badly either way, unless mrs grid learns to love her husband again. 
He's got to solve the divorce problem, as far as how HE will get treated, before he worries about the other, or he might not be able to take care of his daughters. And dismissing the filing is not the way to do it. She can refuel at any time. Divorcing legally is the only way at this point.


----------



## LongWalk

In the early stages of divorce, it is easy to get dismissal or withdrawal. But she has to do it. I think it would be very weak of Grid to nag her into dropping it. The law gives him 20 days to respond. Is her petition is complete, including custody and property division and Grid considers it fair. He should respond with same to the court and not quibble over details. That would give any judge looking at their divorce down the road a strong incentive to strike down changes by either party.

A fair divorce, though painful to consider, would be something to work towards as plan A or B. It could be plan B in Grid's heart. It could be plan B in her heart, but to have plan would give them some stability. One important thing about life changing decisions. They should not be mad in anger or haste. When I was going through divorce, I did not want it. But one day while on vacation in the South of France in beautiful cottage, my mother and ex started discussing something I wanted to do. My mother wanted my then wife's opinion on a plan I had. She conferred with my mother directly dissing my plan. It was so disrespectful that I decided at that moment to to tell my family that we had filed for divorce and would divorce. I determined at that moment that I was through. If I had been a more together person I would have used the holiday in France to have fun with my ex and try to repair things. So, for sure I subscribe to your notion of leadership and responsibility.

I think Grid sees now that he undermined his marriage. He would like to do things differently now. But for a most men and probably most women cheating is a sledgehammer blow. Plywood is incredibly strong. A light box made of nothing but wood and glue can hold bear many times it's weight in metal, but few smashes in the right spots will collapse it.

I don't fully understand anyone's mind, not even my own. Despite the kaleidoscope of individual perception, I do know certain things very well. Men hate the idea of their woman sleeping with someone else and enjoying it. What happened before marriage matters, but before a woman becomes girlfriend and wife you cannot undo history. In fact, it is a sign of insecurity to interrogate a partner about their past sex life. Once you marry your spouse's sex life is your personal business... that sounds wrong... how about your spouse's sex life is part of a intimate sphere that others do not belong in. There are people who have open marriages but that is beyond most.

Grid has to cope with many contradictions now. His wife wouldn't so much as touch him for weeks. Now they have had sex but he doesn't even know if his wife was thinking Grid was stealing OM's spot. He doesn't know a lot about what is going on. I agree that he should be a leader. Good leaders keep things simple. Give people too many complicated instructions and a lot ambiguity and they will doubt. Therefore, it should be clear:

1) Grid will survive – if he sends out that vibe, his wife may be attracted. But it has to be a conviction and goal that is inherently his and not dependent on her. One very bad move by a betrayed spouse is to threaten suicide. That's not strong or attractive, unless you're into the emo scene.

2) Grid needs to be a good dad. That's a high priority. He can sacrifice his own interests or his wife's but not his two kids. Dad has too much self respect to stay with a mom who is an remorseless cheater.

3) He can and should keep his temper. Work. Show that he can keep his shyte together during adversity.

4) He should not compromise on remorse as condition for reconciliation. To me remorse need not be a written statement. It might not even be necessary to hear a statement. A truly confident Grid could trust his gut. If she is loving and working to heal his hurt, he may not need a whole bunch of brittle speeches. 

If she says to their elder daughter, give little sister the first pancake and then let daddy have the second one, the little girl will probably beam with joy. And if WW smiles and Grid smiles, he won't be thinking about OM's play list. And on one day she should be telling Grid that she is quitting the job. At the very least she should be alerting Grid to every overture by OM, including how she shuts him down with no BS talk about just being friends.


----------



## jld

LongWalk said:


> In the early stages of divorce, it is easy to get dismissal or withdrawal. But she has to do it. I think it would be very weak of Grid to nag her into dropping it. The law gives him 20 days to respond. Is her petition is complete, including custody and property division and Grid considers it fair. He should respond with same to the court and not quibble over details. That would give any judge looking at their divorce down the road a strong incentive to strike down changes by either party.
> 
> Who is talking about nagging her? Earning her trust is not nagging her.
> 
> A fair divorce, though painful to consider, would be something to work towards as plan A or B. It could be plan B in Grid's heart. It could be plan B in her heart, but to have plan would give them some stability. One important thing about life changing decisions. They should not be mad in anger or haste. When I was going through divorce, I did not want it. But one day while on vacation in the South of France in beautiful cottage, my mother and ex started discussing something I wanted to do. My mother wanted my then wife's opinion on a plan I had. She conferred with my mother directly dissing my plan. It was so disrespectful that I decided at that moment to to tell my family that we had filed for divorce and would divorce. I determined at that moment that I was through. If I had been a more together person I would have used the holiday in France to have fun with my ex and try to repair things. So, for sure I subscribe to your notion of leadership and responsibility.
> 
> I appreciate your sharing that story, LW. I think we all have things we would do differently if we could go back in time.
> 
> It is easy to react emotionally. That is what Grid's wife did when she filed. She was scared by his threat, and trying to protect herself.
> 
> But there is still time to turn back. Grid can be a big part of that.
> 
> I think Grid sees now that he undermined his marriage. He would like to do things differently now. But for a most men and probably most women cheating is a sledgehammer blow. Plywood is incredibly strong. A light box made of nothing but wood and glue can hold bear many times it's weight in metal, but few smashes in the right spots will collapse it.
> 
> Let's see. I think our supporting him and encouraging him towards reconciliation could really help.
> 
> I don't fully understand anyone's mind, not even my own. Despite the kaleidoscope of individual perception, I do know certain things very well. Men hate the idea of their woman sleeping with someone else and enjoying it. What happened before marriage matters, but before a woman becomes girlfriend and wife you cannot undo history. In fact, it is a sign of insecurity to interrogate a partner about their past sex life. Once you marry your spouse's sex life is your personal business... that sounds wrong... how about your spouse's sex life is part of a intimate sphere that others do not belong in. There are people who have open marriages but that is beyond most.
> 
> It does seem that a PA is beyond most men's ability to recover from. I think it is a testament to grid's emotional strength that he has done as well as he has, and as well as I believe he can continue to do.
> 
> Grid has to cope with many contradictions now. His wife wouldn't so much as touch him for weeks. Now they have had sex but he doesn't even know if his wife was thinking Grid was stealing OM's spot. He doesn't know a lot about what is going on. I agree that he should be a leader. *Good leaders keep things simple.* Give people too many complicated instructions and a lot ambiguity and they will doubt. Therefore, it should be clear:
> 
> I totally agree with the bolded.
> 
> 1) Grid will survive – if he sends out that vibe, his wife may be attracted. But it has to be a conviction and goal that is inherently his and not dependent on her. One very bad move by a betrayed spouse is to threaten suicide. That's not strong or attractive, unless you're into the emo scene.
> 
> I think expressing confidence and conviction that the marriage and intact family can be saved, again through his earning her trust, would be very attractive.
> 
> 2) Grid needs to be a good dad. That's a high priority. He can sacrifice his own interests or his wife's but not his two kids. Dad has too much self respect to stay with a mom who is an remorseless cheater.
> 
> I think the kids would like their parents together. They probably did not appreciate the way he emotionally and verbally abused their mom, either.
> 
> 3) He can and should keep his temper. Work. Show that he can keep his shyte together during adversity.
> 
> Agreed.
> 
> 4) He should not compromise on remorse as condition for reconciliation. To me remorse need not be a written statement. It might not even be necessary to hear a statement. A truly confident Grid could trust his gut. If she is loving and working to heal his hurt, he may not need a whole bunch of brittle speeches.
> 
> I think she is remorseful. Refusing alimony, having almost no contact with AP, going to church, having sex the other day, all these indicate remorse to me. They certainly do not indicate defiance.
> 
> If she says to their elder daughter, give little sister the first pancake and then let daddy have the second one, the little girl will probably beam with joy. And if WW smiles and Grid smiles, he won't be thinking about OM's play list. And on one day she should be telling Grid that she is quitting the job. At the very least she should be alerting Grid to every overture by OM, including how she shuts him down with no BS talk about just being friends.
> 
> I think it is going to be evident to her at some point that reconciliation will be easier without the AP near her. I think it would be more powerful for her to come to that on her own, than to have it forced on her. My opinion.
> 
> I think it would be nice if Daddy made the pancakes and gave the first one to Mom.


----------



## manfromlamancha

Grid has done nothing wrong here! Nothing!

He did not threaten her unreasonably. He wanted her to stop with the POSOM and to leave the job so as to distance herself from him.

She said NO!

He wanted to know if she is over the POSOM.

She said NO!

He wanted her to show signs of wanting to reconcile and rescue her marriage.

She said NO!

And now he has to earn her trust ?!?!?!?!?!? This is ludicrous!

He would be insane to drop the divorce now.

As I have said before, she has a LOOOONG way to go before her accepting that what she did was wrong and genuinely wanting to make amends to Grid. A looooong way!! 

She slept with Grid because that's all it meant to her - some sex. Again she told Grid not to read too much into it !?!?!? INCREDIBLE !!!
Instead of it being THE OTHER WAY ROUND!!! Grid should have been the one telling her not to read too much into it and that he just had a load to offload (apologies for the crudeness).

She is not confused. She is not in any real fog. She knows what she did and she enjoyed it. It didn't work out like she planned but she wanted to split with Grid originally. Now she has thought about things and she kind of doesn't. It isn't emotional or anything like that - it is quite practical. And she is an expert at making Grid feel like its all his fault and also at justifying her disgusting behaviour to herself.

I would love to see Grid genuinely reconciled with his wife and I really hope he can. However, she is still a million miles from a GENUINE reconciliation.


----------



## jld

I guess I am more optimistic, man.


----------



## LongWalk

Grid wrote:



> I don't know if I mentioned this ever, but my wife has agreed to NO alimony. I don't want to pay it and she agrees that, because of the infidelity, she should step up and pay her own way for doing something so devious. We've agreed to mediation if we ultimately decide it's not meant to be. I am responding to the divorce on my own (after initial lawyer visit where he explicitly coached me on what to do) so I don't have to give the 5k retainer. I will go to the Country court on Tuesday and make it official. My wife has told her lawyer once I do that, that the pause button is hit until we sort it all out.


NY state has a helpful website



> How Do I Find a Divorce Mediator?
> 1) Ask court staff for a referral to a court-based mediation program, if your case is already in court. Most court programs offer parties a free, initial mediation session, followed by reduced-fee follow-up sessions.
> 2) Check with your local Community Dispute Resolution Center (CDRC). Most CDRCs offer free mediation of parenting disputes. For help to resolve financial or other aspects of divorce (e.g., support, property and debt division), couples can ask for a referral list of trained, divorce mediators who can take cases on a fee-for-service basis.
> 3) Contact the New York State Unified Court System's Collaborative Family Law Center. The Center offers free divorce mediation to qualifying couples living in New York City. If you and your spouse are eligible, you may get up to four, 90-minute sessions with program mediators (or six sessions, if you have children). Both spouses must agree to participate. Note: Referrals to divorce mediation will not be made in cases involving domestic violence or child abuse or where one spouse cannot locate the other.


If Grid's wife did not know how to stand up for herself before, she does now.


----------



## gridcom

I actually cannot find the form that I need to counter her "Action For Divorce" ie the divorce papers. I have searched all over this site:
Divorce Resources

I know there are no legal eagles here (right?). My lawyer told me what I needed to do was download a form off this website, add in a "Demand For Complaint" (as her divorce papers had no complaint paperwork) and also take all that she wants with the divorce and recopy it, word for word, replacing "Plaintiff" with "Defendant" and vice versa. Head on down to the county court, hand it all in, then take another copy and send it to her lawyer.

Seems simple except I cannot for the life of me find the form I need off this site to respond.

I do have another divorce lawyer (family friend) but he's from another part of the state. He's helping me too, but he advised me to get a local lawyer because "local lawyers know the judges". I was going to call him tomorrow and ask him where this form is, or if it even exists, but it's a holiday tomorrow, so that leaves me just two business days to get this all done

Again, we have agreed to Mediation as the last resort here, so it's all just a process in time and MONEY wasting. And to jld's point, I could just ask her to drop it, as I think she would if I made my case. But, at this point, I don't even want to address it with her at all. I'll just pay the couple of hundred dollars it costs in court proceedings and continue the process she started. I just want to make sure I do it right.

And no, if it came to actual going to trial, I would of course then pay the lawyer to rep me. I just dont have 5k laying around to file response paperwork that I could do myself. Except, I cant find the form anywhere


----------



## ButtPunch

Absolutely find a local lawyer who is in tight with the judge. I know money is tight but don't try to do this by yourself. She filed and is in control.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

Why do you not want to address it with her?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gridcom

jld said:


> Why do you not want to address it with her?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think she'd see it as me trying to control things. I think she feels safer with the process in play. It doesn't bother me, except I cant find the form. 

Again, if it went one more step beyond replying, I'd hire a lawyer. I don't have $5,000 laying around. She got a lawyer from 75 miles away because she didnt have to pay a retainer.


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## jld

gridcom said:


> I think she'd see it as me trying to control things. I think she feels safer with the process in play. It doesn't bother me, except I cant find the form.
> 
> Again, if it went one more step beyond replying, I'd hire a lawyer. I don't have $5,000 laying around. She got a lawyer from 75 miles away because she didnt have to pay a retainer.


"Wife, if you have a minute, I would really appreciate talking with you about something.

I understand, or think I do, why you filed ten days ago. I wish I had not made that threat. I think it scared you. It is only normal that you acted to protect yourself.

Wife, I really do not want a divorce. And I don't think you do, either. And I am sure the kids don't.

I would really just like to drop this whole thing and work on putting our marriage back together. 

I know I was a jerk. I know I can really be a jerk. But I really don't want to be a jerk anymore.

Wife, can we drop these legal proceedings and work on rebuilding trust in our marriage?

You are the woman I want to be buried with. But first I would like us to do a whole lot of living together."
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

gridcom said:


> Helllllo Cleveland!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1- I have not yet really followed the jld, LifeIsTooShort, Anon approach. I have not strictly focused only on myself. I have done a much better job of that in the last 2 weeks, absolutely. But, to say that I am not working my wife over for her to do the right thing would be a lie. Again, I'm getting there. I'd say I am 80% of the way to focusing strictly on me, but not yet 100%. So, to say those women's approach hasn't worked....I'd say that's to be determined as I haven't truly backed off my wife and given her some space. Until I have the inner strength to do it for a prolonged period of time, I think it's too premature to say that approach doesn't work. Again, and it needs to be repeated because it's getting lost..... I was emotionally abusive and in the distant past (but not forgotten) verbally abusive. I was dismissive. This was NOT a constant thing, only when we had disputes. But, my approach with disputes were agonizing, prolonged, and unneccesary. It's a freakin' SHAME that I KNOW this, can admit and acknowledge it, but STILL cannot stop doing it sometimes. I'll admit I've lost my cool with my wife even this week and when I get in that frame of mind, I feel absolutely justified . It's bizzare and I keep talking to my IC about this, because it's a problem. It's going to be a problem with whomever I am with.
> 
> This week I have gotten frustrated with my wife for two specific reasons. First, earlier in the week, because she admitted that when she see's her AP (which is actually tonight) and he asks her how she is doing, she will be cordial. That drove me nuts. This guy is THE ENEMY. He doesn't have a problem hurting my kids for his own pursuits. I ask her "Don't you realize that?" and she just can't give me a straight up answer. And, here it comes........ I just WONT STOP until I drill it into her mind that I AM RIGHT AND SHE IS WRONG AND WHAT THE F&CK!!!!!!!
> 
> And her response to that interaction is "This is THE problem. You are not making me love you more. You are chasing me away"
> 
> 
> 
> Lets go Mets


First off you mentioned being sarcastic earlier. Sarcasm is an insult couched in humor. You never use sarcasm with a loved one especially young people and spouses.

Sarcasm is used to insult politicians, common enemies etc. with friends in general conversation.

Saying you can't stop verbally abusing your wife is bullsh!t. You don't want to. Its because you think you're always right and your thoughts are simply superior to your wife's.

I think your wife has had an exit affair and told you about it to get away from you. I think your demeanor, "humor", sarcasam and pompousness has been more than she or anyone else could handle. You're noir the be all and end all among men. You've become repulsive as opposed to attractive.

You don't know how to relate to women. I repeat, get the mmslp book below before your just one more schmuck coming back here saying "you all were right."


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## LongWalk

https://www.nycourts.gov/divorce/forms.shtml

It is possible that she is playing chicken. She may be trying to manipulate you into asking her to withdraw the petition. Maybe it's a shyte test. The simplest and most logical is to agree to the divorce. The only thing that would hold up the process is failure to come to agreement over outstanding issues. Again the getting through each part will be painful. Even if custody is 50/50 and the holiday schedule causes no argument, it will be painful signing that paper.

Neither you nor your wife are very materialistic people. Getting your finances into good order will facilitate both divorce and reconciliation. You'll both feel better when you have your debts and assets tallied in black and white.

Moving out and finding a new place, that's another enriching divorce experience... a home with an intact family is great thing. You want it but your wife is willing to chuck it, to start over. But for what? For OM? Just to get away from you? To do tinder? Your wife doesn't sound like the type to go through a bunch of random guys... let's hope she doesn't disappoint jld.

I took a walk through the nature reserve this evening. Talked to my daughter on the telephone as the sun went down. She's almost 18 and sick of school. Said she wanted to escape and go camping. We haven't gone in years. My daughters loved sitting by the lake, grilling sausages, and afterwards holding sticks in the fire to make glowing tips to wave in the blackness. Thinking back now, I can even remember the brand of sausages I bought, Finnish. Different taste to the Swedish ones. Their mother and I were still married then but she didn't want to feed the mosquitoes. 

I told D-almost-18 about tear drop shaped campers that people have in the US. You don't have to have money to do stuff with your kids. Just knowing that you can do it with or without your wife will make you stronger inside. You need not speak to her about these things, in fact you should keep them to yourself. You're going to have a good life. You can wish her a good one, too. Eventually, you'll let go.

Your wife wasn't a serial cheater or a MLC WW who ran off at night. You can tell your her that you appreciate that she didn't run off at nights, although she longed to. It sounds crazy to praise a cheater merely for not indulging herself after Dday (at least as far as you know), but it was hard for her cut it off like that. Perhaps you can say this to her, perhaps not.

I didn't walk as far as the lake, but stopped in the old manor house garden to see if I could snitch some apples. There were only handful left. Across the gravel road the light was on in the stable where my daughters used to take riding lessons on Sundays. I went into get a drink of water before heading home. My entrance startled a middle age woman in riding gear. She was closing up and for a second she afraid I was a thief, rapist or mugger. She turned on the light in the toilet and went and stood with big horses. I got my drink, said thank you and goodbye.

Fifty yards down the path I ran into G, a homeless guy with a long matted beard. I met him years ago when used to live in tent in the woods by the lake. He dropped out of society. He's eccentric but not crazy. Has a great memory and loves discussing stuff. He has daughter somewhere but has no connection to her anymore. He lit a cigarette and asked me questions about the US elections. G has a cat; that's all the family he's got now. He chose that life. 

Your wife chose to cheat. She chose divorce. Now is the time to let her go. She may choose to come back. It's not your job to chase her.


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## TeddieG

I too think it is fishy that she didn't include the complaint form, and is either playing chicken or making you think she's filing to get you to cave and let her cake eat. But this is why I think your friend is right, and you need a local lawyer. He's not blowing you off, he's sending you a message. It's not just because they know the judges, but you shouldn't be fishing around on the internet looking for a document that is going to affect your financial future and that of your girls. It's not going to cost you $5000, trust me. A retainer MIGHT be $1500 (mine was $750) but they do the work for you and that retainer buys you a certain amount of their time, and they probably have the form in their office drawer. More importantly, a lawyer will tell you what she "filed" and the significance of not including the complaint form!! And you can also get your lawyer to tell you if she's made any preliminary asks, if there are any initial proposals, in the filing. Forget about debating with jld why you're not willing to talk to your SBTXW directly and follow your gut instincts and DON'T talk to her. It's time to be mysterious and not show your hand. All's fair in love and war but divorce is business. 

Dude, I really hate this weird symbiotic mother-son relationship you have with jld (regardless of jld's query about why you don't want to talk about the divorce with your SBTX, you shouldn't be in every single case and about every single detail) and how she pulls your chain, but really on THIS one, be determined and strong and don't play the game and deal directly with your lawyer and my advice would be not to talk to your W about it at all; let the lawyers do it. Does it not cross your mind that her OM thinks he stands to benefit financially perhaps if she walks off with a sweet wad, including your house? 

I think like this because I have worked for lawyers many times over many years. In most states, once divorces are final, they cannot be changed under any circumstances unless there is an issue regarding child support. 

When I agreed this time to h's demand for divorce and said I wouldn't fight him but I would also NOT actively participate in dismantling our marriage, he went online and found a lawyer's office that had a "microdivorce" uncontested divorce form to complete, and the lawyer would just file. H demanded to come down here to my house and my computer and wanted me to help him complete it with all my financial info as well as his (which he is barely cognizant of) and I said no. He asked twice and I kept saying (boundaries) I will discuss with my lawyer and let you know. He still thought that because I said I wouldn't put up a big fight I was jumping up and down in joy and was happy to facilitate his upcoming engagement and marriage (his empathy chip is broken). And I knew the OW was whispering in his ear, and I knew she would see all the financial info I provided. So I suggested he email me the printed version with all HIS information and let me see what the form required of me. The point was, it was his divorce, he wanted it, and I had told him to file, but he wanted me to do it all for him, or at least help him with it, and I said no, send me preliminary paperwork and I'll see my lawyer. So he did. I was NOT giving him my SS# or any account numbers, so I took his form to my lawyer. 

It turns out there were three or four things I am entitled to by state law not included on this form, and so my lawyer said for me to tell h to send his paper work, as he had filled it out, to the lawyer on the other side of the online program, and because she knew him, they would work out a proposal, but h and his lawyer would have to file first. And there's stuff he's entitled to. I can't get any of his military retirement but he can offer temporary support (which he did) and he can get a portion of my retirement accounts. 

If your W is using cheap and quick online crap, there's so going to be so much more time and effort on the part of the lawyers than if you just let them do it right in the first place . . .


----------



## gridcom

LongWalk said:


> https://www.nycourts.gov/divorce/forms.shtml


Which one though?


----------



## LongWalk

Call the county on Monday and ask a clerk.

Teddie's advice is good. You can probably do the first answer yourself.

Mediation will probably be okay, but they may or may not tell you all the options.

Your wife may be thinking about the payout and mortgage with OM. This is a risk. 

She may be done with him. Possibly she feels that she cheated on him. Maybe she is so done with you. 

For a year she was in the EA and you thought she just loved her job. You are not totally the master of reading her. She is devious. Don't feel inadequate. The male and female minds are different. That's part of the fun.

Chaparral is right that you should read up on MMSLP. It doesn't have to be a bible but something you can adapt. Teddie is right that you need to talk less and do more. Women love silent mysterious men. 

Your wife may have it all figured out or maybe not. Keep jld's good heartedness inside to give you calm and strength. Do not be your WW's BFF. You will kill off whatever respect she has for you.

Have you started playing the drums again?

Did you go to church?


----------



## TeddieG

Yes, I totally think your WW is capable of being devious, and this: "Do not be your WW's BFF. You will kill off whatever respect she has for you."

This is an outstanding opportunity for you to set boundaries and not be seen as too accommodating. Ironically, at the very time your marriage is crumbling and falling apart legally and the divorce will put an end to it, it is also the opportunity for you to show real detachment. My main concern is that this divorce is coming fairly early in the process, only a few months after you got bomb drop/hit with the 2 x 4 of your wife's cheating, but remember, she was involved with this guy for a year before you knew about it. But you've come a long way fast. Remember one of your past posts when you got angry and realized that your wife has made your girls and you the victims of her choices. You found your way from being nice to your WW to being pissed about what her choices have done to everyone. Affair fog means that she may alternate between being in a huge hurry to get it done only to step back and let it brew for a while. She may show signs of being indecisive and waffle about moving forward with the divorce. If you let your lawyers handle it (or maybe the mediation will successfully move things forward), you don't have to argue with her or deal with her. You REALLY want to do the 180 right now; if you get mad and are sarcastic with her, you're just reinforcing in her mind why she's doing this. There WILL be things that make you angry, and you'd be within your rights to be angry, but don't let her see it. You need everything you've got to adapt to the realities in front of you and the change to your lifestyle; your wife will have to adapt and have the 2 x 4 of the reality check, but that's HER problem. You're going to be tempted to try to fix this for everybody. Try to resist the urge to fix this for her!!  

Your WW may still be so lost in the affair fog that the only one who can be counted on to ensure financial security for your girls going forward is you. You and your wife will be moving into different roles but will still be working together to co-parent. 

You can be civil and fair, and you can avoid conflict, there's no reason to seek it out, but you don't have to help your W dismantle your lives. Your silence will speak volumes. Neither of you will get all of what you want, but you can trust your lawyers to tell you what is likely and what is standard under state law. Remember the boundaries someone posted here for you:

"Get familiar with four sayings:

1. I sorry you feel that way.

2. I am not okay with (insert whatever you have a problem with here).

3. Are you done?

4. I see it differently.

She tells you she likes smoking with OM? Banging OM? That she hates your guts and hopes that you would just die? Calmly cue number 1.

She tells you the divorce is your fault? Calmly cue number two. "I am not okay with you cheating while simultaneously blaming the divorce on me."

She rages? Calmly cue number 3.

She disagrees with something discussed? Calmly cue 4."

And remember that Long Walk said to come up with ways to say these things in your own way, so as not to sound robotic. Remember that this is NOT being mean. IF you've been nice and accommodating to your wife so far, and you turn on your heel and go the other direction, it is going to feel weird to you. There is a place in the middle of accommodating her and being angry and sarcastic with here. It's called 'detached.' You can love her but love her from afar and let her feel the consequences of having you completely out of her life, so she can realize the good things she's giving up. 

Your W is likely to be very angry that things have come to this, that her little fun on the side has turned into something she can't let go of and she has lost control of the situation, and she will very likely blame you. Now is NOT the time to focus primarily on anything you've done in the past or try to fix what bothers her. You've done a good deal of that and there's more time for that later. 


NO ONE lives with the consequences of your choices but you and your kids and your wife. But seriously. NO ONE. When you're going through a divorce and mediation, it's tempting to give in to the pressure from the spouse who wants it, but always consider, insofar as you can, the consequences. That's another really significant reason why you need lawyers. They are capable of being detached and fair, and they can help you anticipate consequences and protect your financial interests. A big stress factor of divorce is the unknown, the unfamiliarity of the process and the courts and the mediation, but you will get used to working with it in time and you don't have to let the fear be an obstacle.

Hang in, pulling for you.


----------



## LongWalk

Teddie really nailed it. 

Your wife is not as messed up as Teddie's husband, so there is more hope that she will figure things out. But as Chaparral points out, she is very far gone. The divorce application is actually a critical turning point. You should respond to her filing without discussing it with her. She tells you about how she doing it without money, blah, blah, but that is just calculated to disarm you. Moreover, she is deceiving herself. She feels that by sharing information about how she divorcing you, she is being generous and open. That is a lie. She is even telling it to herself because she doesn't want to deal with truth. OM hailed her as the MILF of his life. She dug his attentions and hid how she trash talked you to him. Your real flaws, which were none of his business, were handed over to him as the password to get into her panties. Once she shifted over, OM did not have to anything but look into her eyes and agree with all she said.

At some point your wife had to start rewriting. You were a hard worker and that was bad because you ignored her. For whom you worked hard she ignored as an inconvenient fact. Not wanting alimony could just be a way of proving to herself that she doesn't want your money. It makes her old justifications for the affair respectable.

"I am not mercenary," she tells herself.

Have you ever read about cognitive dissonance?



> *Cognitive dissonance theory* is founded on the assumption that individuals seek consistency between their expectations and their reality. Because of this, people engage in a process called dissonance reduction to bring their cognitions and actions in line with one another. This creation of uniformity allows for a lessening of psychological tension and distress. According to Festinger, dissonance reduction can be achieved in four ways.[1] In an example case where a person has adopted the attitude that they will no longer eat high fat food, but eats a high-fat doughnut, the four methods of reduction are:
> 
> Change behavior or cognition ("I will not eat any more of this doughnut")
> 
> Justify behavior or cognition by changing the conflicting cognition ("I'm allowed to cheat every once in a while")
> 
> Justify behavior or cognition by adding new cognitions ("I'll spend 30 extra minutes at the gym to work this off")
> 
> Ignore or deny any information that conflicts with existing beliefs ("This doughnut is not high in fat")


The OM is a donut.

Your wife believes that cheating on a spouse by screwing colleagues at work is wrong.

1) You stopped her from continuing that behavior. She did not control it entirely of her own volition. However, she did manage not to spend nights with OM after Dday. So she did the right thing partially.

2) "I'm allowed to cheat every once in a while" That's literally what she said.

3) "I'm super nice to dumped hubby in divorce, so that compensates for my adultery."

4) Denying facts. Smoking cigarettes with OM was not breaking NC.

Your wife needs to gain insight into her POS tendencies on her own. You cannot do it for her. What you can do is show her the logical consequences of her choices. She filed for divorce; she will end up divorced. She requested no alimony; she will get none. She is disloyal towards her husband; her husband's loyalty will wither.

Three years from now your WW may be may be married to OM and have a new baby. They may be happy or not. You cannot know.

Perhaps four months from now as you and your wife put the house up for sale, she will have a change of heart, but you will not. You may be sick of her by then. Statistically, the odd are against reconciliation. 

One thing positive in the divorce filing is that you have a boundary. You should be implementing the 180. Having sex with your wife could confuse you. It is another example of cognitive dissonance. Sex was part of the love that you had. If you have sex now that you are divorcing that is almost like copulation. What was once sacred to your marriage becomes merely animal.

If your wife really wanted you and came of her own accord, then she would want to cancel the divorce. Why would she divorce a man with whom she had good conversation, good sex, companionship and two nice kids?


----------



## happy as a clam

Wrong thread
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TeddieG

"Your wife needs to gain insight into her POS tendencies on her own. You cannot do it for her. What you can do is show her the logical consequences of her choices. She filed for divorce; she will end up divorced. She requested no alimony; she will get none. She is disloyal towards her husband; her husband's loyalty will wither."

This is really good. When my h was confronted by OW (and I think her family) about being a POS and disappearing from her life and then showing up again, he was seriously butt hurt. He called me and wailed into the phone. He realized that he had trained her to believe he would always be back, and he had trained me to expect that he would always leave. His cake-eating had to come to an end if he wanted her in his life. For some reason, he feels bonded or obligated to them because they showed him what he was doing (like he didn't know, but as long as nothing created consequences for him, he didn't care). He knee jerked and proposed to her, and now he's stuck. But the point is, there are two things I learned: one, it took me a LONG time to experience it, but he did pull something that really broke my heart for the ultimate and final time and the love left my eyes, and 2) as much as I wanted him to see what a POS he was being, I knew I couldn't do anything to influence or manufacture that moment. 

I really do think her comment to you that she would cheat again is haunting you. And I suspect deep down if she's going to cheat on somebody, you may want it to be the POSOM or the next guy she lands, and not you. 

And I warned h that filing for divorce would be the nail in the coffin and the door would close and the porchlight would go off. 

But yes, in four months, six months, things could change, but her living the consequences of her choices will hasten that day, I suspect. 

Hang in, pulling for you.


----------



## ButtPunch

TeddieG said:


> "Your wife needs to gain insight into her POS tendencies on her own. You cannot do it for her. What you can do is show her the logical consequences of her choices. She filed for divorce; she will end up divorced. She requested no alimony; she will get none. She is disloyal towards her husband; her husband's loyalty will wither."


Absolutely....Get a lawyer or you will be sitting with 70K debt, child support, and alimony payments. 

Protect yourself Grid


----------



## manfromlamancha

jld said:


> I guess I am more optimistic, man.


JLD, you are more optimistic and I really wish that the rest of the world was more like you. You have a lot of compassion and believe it or not, I think your approach has a lot of merit. Its just difficult to apply it to all circumstances. What you offer is what we all hope is happening or will happen - e.g. in this case we would hope that his wife is really struggling and wants to see the good in Grid. However, for me this is very difficult to believe at this stage - maybe if she shows some signs of real remorse simply for the wrong that she has done and doesn't try to justify it all the time.

Again, I really do appreciate your posts because I always learn a lot from them. So lets agree to disagree on this one for the time being!


----------



## jld

manfromlamancha said:


> JLD, you are more optimistic and I really wish that the rest of the world was more like you. You have a lot of compassion and believe it or not, I think your approach has a lot of merit. Its just difficult to apply it to all circumstances. What you offer is what we all hope is happening or will happen - e.g. in this case we would hope that his wife is really struggling and wants to see the good in Grid. However, for me this is very difficult to believe at this stage - maybe if she shows some signs of real remorse simply for the wrong that she has done and doesn't try to justify it all the time.
> 
> Again, I really do appreciate your posts because I always learn a lot from them. So lets agree to disagree on this one for the time being!


Of course, man. 

And if we all saw things the same way, the convos would be boring!


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## Thundarr

The bottom line is that reality doesn't change just because we try extra hard. Thinking we can fix everything by working harder is a nice thought but it's an illusion. The caveat is that we can work on ourselves. Trying to fix another person though is a coping mechanism to avoid accepting the reality that we don't control others around us and we don't know what they're thinking. You can't make her love you or want to stay in the marriage and you can't make her hate the OM or stop wanting him.

The inherent problem when someone's done terrible things to you is that they know that you should be angry and hold them accountable to be with you. Even if they would change things if given the chance to go back, they still know that they're supposed to be held accountable for their betrayal. It's a catch 22 where if you compromise yourself to show how committed you are to them then it's seen as weakness which just makes things worse. Your wife didn't make the commitment to reconciliation so there's nothing to work with except yourself.


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## turnera

Thundarr said:


> The bottom line is that reality doesn't change just because we try extra hard. Thinking we can fix everything by working harder is a nice thought but it's an illusion.


Not only that, it's failing to take psychology into account. Meaning, seeing someone falling all over themselves to please us can do one of two things, depending on our state of mind. It can please us and make us want to please them back...or it can cause us to feel LESS interested in (and less respectful of) that person BECAUSE they're falling all over themselves to please us, at their own expense.


----------



## ButtPunch

turnera said:


> Not only that, it's failing to take psychology into account. Meaning, seeing someone falling all over themselves to please us can do one of two things, depending on our state of mind. It can please us and want to make us please them back...or it can cause us to feel LESS interested in (and less respectful of) that person BECAUSE they're falling all over themselves to please us, at their own expense.


Remember Tears' thread, her hubby stood up with conviction and let her know that he would not tolerate her abuse. 

Her story was sad to me as I felt she was truly remorseful and hoped she would get another chance.


----------



## turnera

Yes, but that could just be a case of him being one of those men who simply had to walk away.


----------



## LongWalk

ButtPunch said:


> Remember Tears' thread, her hubby stood up with conviction and let her know that he would not tolerate her abuse.
> 
> Her story was sad to me as I felt she was truly remorseful and hoped she would get another chance.


They got back together in the end. It took two years, if I remember correctly.

Her husband came and stayed as an overnight guest on weekends, sleeping separately. The daughters liked this a lot. Eventually he was guest with benefits. She didn't want to write about it after that because she was afraid of jinxing the R.


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## ButtPunch

LongWalk said:


> They got back together in the end. It took two years, if I remember correctly.
> 
> Her husband came and stayed as an overnight guest on weekends, sleeping separately. The daughters liked this a lot. Eventually he was guest with benefits. She didn't want to write about it after that because she was afraid of jinxing the R.


Well that just made my day. Good for her. I hope she takes full advantage of the second chance but for some reason I know she will. 

What do you know another reconciliation with a strong BS.


----------



## Evinrude58

My ex told my son she was getting remarried today; I just got officially divorced the 29th. I read that only 1:5 second marriages last. If you can be honest with her and just the agreement worked out and signed, you can always never sign if you don't want to go through with it/// at least here where I am. 
I was also guilty of some bad behavior as far as yelling and I guess what you'd call emotional abuse. It eats at me daily that I lost my family. But like you were told-- letting her know you are scared and badgering her won't work. 

From my end--- it would be great if she would legitimately want to reconcile and you could use all jld's advice. Now is the exactly wrong time to try it. You can't because you're afraid and grieving. Trying it would have the opposite effect. I don't know if it's possible for her to fall back in love. 

I know I've done all I could do, and am moving on. Make sure you can say the same--- I think you will be-- you have.


----------



## Thundarr

turnera said:


> Not only that, it's failing to take psychology into account. Meaning, seeing someone falling all over themselves to please us can do one of two things, depending on our state of mind. It can please us and make us want to please them back...or it can cause us to feel LESS interested in (and less respectful of) that person BECAUSE they're falling all over themselves to please us, at their own expense.


That's right. And in this case Gridcom has enough information to see that his wife didn't respond to his efforts and is moving further away from him. But as you're pointing out, her moving away is a response. It's the red flag that makes so much of the touchy-feely advice on this (LONG) thread moot. Gridcom's wife isn't responding to well to how he's let her treat him. She doesn't respect it.


----------



## Keepin-my-head-up

gridcom said:


> I think she'd see it as me trying to control things. I think she feels safer with the process in play. It doesn't bother me, except I cant find the form.
> 
> Again, if it went one more step beyond replying, I'd hire a lawyer. I don't have $5,000 laying around. She got a lawyer from 75 miles away because she didnt have to pay a retainer.


Or, you are afraid she will say no.
Cause if she does,
You will know exactly where everything stands.


----------



## happyman64

Grid

You sound much stronger now than when you first came to Tam.

What have you done for yourself to show your wife that you are strong?

What changes have you made for yourself that shows your wife you will be fine with her or without her?

I can understand your wife saying she is standing on the sidelines of Reconciliation until you calm down, stop the angry outbursts and end all sarcastic comments.

She filed for divorce. She can wait for months because she started the clock, you did not.

FWIW you should show her something positive. 
Answer the divorce petition. Get it done.
Be happy with yourself.
Be happy with your children.
Be focused at work.
Change your wardrobe, haircut.
Get in shape if you need to.

Most importantly be positive about the future. Your future. Your children's future. Do not be afraid to show your wife what her life will look like without you in it and without the kids 50% of the time.

Your wife will notice these changes. She will feel these changes. She will ask you why you are hurting her with these changes.

Just shrug, smile and tell her you are practicing to be the best man and father that you can be.

Nothing more.

You my friend have nothing to lose by implementing these changes. They will focus you and make you happier.

HM


----------



## jld

I think she was pretty clear with him the other day. She told him to give her space and be nice. He tends to be overbearing and in the past has not been nice. 

She also said the divorce will be on pause after he responds. This is the time for them to begin reconnecting.

I think he should follow her lead. Relax, don't pressure, and focus on meeting her emotional needs. I am confident she will respond.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

jld said:


> She told him to give her space and be nice.


Probably the #1 thing people say when they are having an affair.

Regardless, grid needs to* actually do* the 180. Which means stop sleeping in the same bed. 

As Happyman said, all the focus should be on grid and the kids.


----------



## TeddieG

Yes, jld, asking for space and asking for your BS to be nice is asking for more time to cake-eat. But it isn't like this is news to him. Her cheating is not now, her pining for the OW is not new, and if she wants space and wants him to be nice, the 180 is the perfect way to do it, and take care of him at the same time. If she drags out the divorce and stalls, and he wants it moving, he can ask his lawyer to move it along.


----------



## Chuck71

Evinrude58 said:


> My ex told my son she was getting remarried today; I just got officially divorced the 29th. I read that only 1:5 second marriages last. If you can be honest with her and just the agreement worked out and signed, you can always never sign if you don't want to go through with it/// at least here where I am.
> *I was also guilty of some bad behavior as far as yelling* and I guess what you'd call emotional abuse. It eats at me daily that I lost my family. But like you were told-- letting her know you are scared and badgering her won't work.
> 
> From my end--- it would be great if she would legitimately want to reconcile and you could use all jld's advice. Now is the exactly wrong time to try it. You can't because you're afraid and grieving. Trying it would have the opposite effect. I don't know if it's possible for her to fall back in love.
> 
> I know I've done all I could do, and am moving on. Make sure you can say the same--- I think you will be-- you have.


I was guilty of this too. But so was my XW.... yet the only thing brought up after DDay was.... mine. How ironic!

The day after I climbed out of the rabbit hole, she stated, "I don't know what I am doing from one day to the next."

I replied, "Better you than me!" One of the multitude of dogs she had bit her toe about halfway through

our D process (60 days). She continued to send me emails to call her, update me on her ER visit.....

So much for my alleged "temper" huh.... 

I did reply..... once..... three days later..... "Use peroxide.... bye"


----------



## Chuck71

TeddieG said:


> Yes, jld, asking for space and asking for your BS to be nice is asking for more time to cake-eat. But it isn't like this is news to him. Her cheating is not now, her pining for the OW is not new, and if she wants space and wants him to be nice, the 180 is the perfect way to do it, and take care of him at the same time. If she drags out the divorce and stalls, and he wants it moving, he can ask his lawyer to move it along.


As long as he is paying the bills, she will not speed up the D.

I can see this D starting to mirror ReGroup's


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Grid,

Question about the toxic friend working for your WW's lawyer:

Is she divorced?


----------



## TeddieG

Chuck71 said:


> As long as he is paying the bills, she will not speed up the D.
> 
> I can see this D starting to mirror ReGroup's


I had the same thought when he said she didn't include the complaint in the filing.


----------



## gridcom

ThreeStrikes said:


> Grid,
> 
> Question about the toxic friend working for your WW's lawyer:
> 
> Is she divorced?


Her husband cheated on her and rubbed her nose in it, then he died in a motorcycle accident. She's had a stream of less than savory men in her bed since


----------



## LongWalk

HappyMan has laid out the path in very clear and simple terms.

Jld,

Contrary to what some think, I believe you have helped Grid. Hearing your voice, which reminds him of his wife's voice, has given him hope that he can reconnect with her. Knowing that others have faith in one, can give person strength. I am an atheist but if I suspend my disbelief, it is clear that since Jesus loves everyone, that hope of living up to that love in turn gives us hope and strength. Christ is even there for Charles Manson, in theory.

For Grid to tap into that faith, and he even went to church to do this, is a good thing. Despair after all makes us less attractive, less capable, and less dynamic to all concerned. Few want so sit next to a stranger on an airplane who wants to share the story of his sad marriage or bankruptcy for 3/4 of the flight. 

jld, Grid will not succeed if he drinks the Cool-aid of self deception. Hope can be based on love. Decisions should be based on facts. One fact that is known to Grid's wife is that her husband loves her. She gave him a little pity pvssy to check up on that. She even told him quite frankly that he had to understand that the sex would change nothing.

Grid's wife is a cheater but as an individual she has some code of integrity. It is not the same code that she had before she chose to try adultery. Call it the golden rule under reconstruction, i.e., she does not want to lie by giving Grid false hopes. Her messages to Grid have been clear so far as they go. He should not build up his hopes. She wants a divorce.

Why she filed for divorce is not entirely clear. You say that she was afraid. Afraid of what? Grid's abuse? His control?

It is more logical to suppose that the purpose of divorce is to lose that encumbrance, the partner who constantly chaffs at the soul. Mrs Grid's honesty is the best policy is limited. It could be that she and OM have an agreement to become a couple as soon as she can free herself from Grid. Possibly, she has made promises to OM to which she no longer feels the same commitment. Alternatively, she may not know exactly what she wants beyond freedom. That freedom may include reconciliation with Grid. Neither divorce nor reconciliation offer only positive or negative outcomes. Moreover, the consequences must be experienced to actually be real. We cannot be legally married to two different spouses and then choose the better result 10 years down the line.

Today Grid will submit his agreement to divorce to some county in New York state (pop. approx. 19.7m). While the six months for divorce begin to wind down, are they in a state of in-house separation? Are they going to promptly finalize the details of a property and asset settlement? Are they going to MC?

Crucial dates are creeping up: the last Thanksgiving. The last Christmas. The time will pass quicker than Grid or his wife can imagine. Or perhaps it will creep unbearably slow. Perhaps they are not even going to church together anymore. The last time for that may already be history.


----------



## LongWalk

Chuck71 said:


> As long as he is paying the bills, she will not speed up the D.
> 
> I can see this D starting to mirror ReGroup's


Disagree. Mrs ReGroup was a larger than life character. She was always hot and cold. Seventy percent of the time she was vindictive, manipulative and selfish. The other 30 percent she was naive, seductive and innocent. Introspection was not her strong suit. The games she played with their daughter were unconscionable. 

It was clear that as ReGroup grew as a person she felt that he was becoming stronger. At first ReGroup had to get feedback from Conrad and Mavash to handle Mrs ReGroup's unnerving ploys. Once she realized he wasn't buying her crap, she wanted him to "fight for her."

Mrs ReGroup wanted to sleep with him first so that she could consider swinging back into the marriage. If she had been smarter she would have stopped all parental alienation and left OM. She was too much of a cake eater to take the risk of being responsible for her own choices.

Mrs Gridcom has not followed the extremes of that crazy lady in Queens.

Once Gridcom answers her petition, he will learn more about his WW's intentions.


----------



## Keepin-my-head-up

So your wife filed and has a lawyer.
You think you can get your wife to dismiss the divorce and take the correct actions to have a marriage that no one else has?
Then DO IT!
Or, say: you want to disrespect me and our family like that?!
No one does that to this family!
Not me not you, not anyone!
Then proceed with the divorce and if she comes back fully committed then the 2 of you can decide.


At some time, we have all gone thru some sh!t that made us wonder how we would survive.
If you have kids, this is the big learning moments for them!
When sh!t hits the fan, what will daddy do?

You damn right it sucks, but you suck it up and you fight the fight!
You are showing her and your kids that you cannot even make a choice on this.
That when push comes to shove, daddy can't even ask mom if she would stop the divorce!
Because he THINKS she wants the safety net it provides.

Go find out.
You want to know if the sex meant anything, and you do because you don't brag about spousal sex you think that time was different.
Ask her to drop the divorce and you will know.


----------



## Chuck71

LongWalk said:


> Disagree. Mrs ReGroup was a larger than life character. She was always hot and cold. Seventy percent of the time she was vindictive, manipulative and selfish. The other 30 percent she was naive, seductive and innocent. Introspection was not her strong suit. The games she played with their daughter were unconscionable.
> 
> It was clear that as ReGroup grew as a person she felt that he was becoming stronger. At first ReGroup had to get feedback from Conrad and Mavash to handle Mrs ReGroup's unnerving ploys. Once she realized he wasn't buying her crap, she wanted him to "fight for her."
> 
> Mrs ReGroup wanted to sleep with him first so that she could consider swinging back into the marriage. If she had been smarter she would have stopped all parental alienation and left OM. She was too much of a cake eater to take the risk of being responsible for her own choices.
> 
> Mrs Gridcom has not followed the extremes of that crazy lady in Queens.
> 
> Once Gridcom answers her petition, he will learn more about his WW's intentions.


Uh huh.......... now what about the money situation?


----------



## jld

LW, 

Thank you for the kind words. I think we all want the best for grid, whether we see that as divorce or reconciliation. He learns from hearing different perspectives.

*I do think we are all interpreting his wife.* When I read what the other posters write, I hear the pain. Many people know what infidelity feels like, each in their own unique way.

I don't come at this from a standpoint of personal experience with infidelity in marriage. That has its limitations, and it has its value.

I think every wife has at one time or another felt frustrated with and distant from her husband. When I hear about grid's verbal and emotional abuse over more than a decade, I can see how his wife became vulnerable to an affair. 

Does it justify her affair? Of course not. She will have that on her conscience forever. 

But everybody does what they do for a reason. We have not heard from her, nor from the ex-wives of the men here pushing for divorce.

I can believe that some of those ex-wives were evil, conniving manipulators. Some people are truly like that. But it could be that some others could have been persuaded to give things another chance with a different approach. 

The approach I recommend, the one I linked on the first or second page of this thread, is that approach. It is sincerity- and humility-based. Even if the marriage ends, the husband can part knowing he tried to reconcile in an integrity-based way. He will have a clear conscience. 

And ultimately, he, as well as his wife, will need that to truly find peace.


----------



## Thundarr

jld said:


> I think she was pretty clear with him the other day. She told him to give her space and be nice. He tends to be overbearing and in the past has not been nice.
> 
> She also said the divorce will be on pause after he responds. This is the time for them to begin reconnecting.
> 
> I think he should follow her lead. Relax, don't pressure, and focus on meeting her emotional needs. I am confident she will respond.


He's left with no choice but to back off, give her space, and stop trying to manage things and that good because he's been sabotaging him self. Going through betrayal and a breakup both plays on insecurities and fear and Grid has been clinging on tight because he's afraid. This is of course the fastest way to push someone away. You say he needs to relax, not pressure, and focus on her needs. Maybe that's your way of saying he needs to be Grid-2.0. He needs to accept that he doesn't have control, accept that pressuring her was flawed driven by his own insecurity, and work on being a better version of himself.

I'm confused why you're confident that she will respond though. When someone has an affair and then files for divorce and asks for space, there must be an infinitesimally small chance of reconciliation. I think it's like telling Grid to play the lottery and that we are confident he will win.


----------



## jld

She told him about the PA right away, her family and friends were told, she goes to church, she goes to Bible study. She has refused alimony. Maybe other people see this as some sort of cover scheme, but I see a woman who simultaneously regrets her actions _and_ knows her needs must be met if she is to truly reconcile.

Thundarr, have you read this?

Reconciliation with a Hardened Wife

He says this is helpful to men with an unfaithful wife as well as to men with a walk away wife.


----------



## jld

From a companion article by the same author:


_It is never a man's fault if his wife is unfaithful. He is never to blame for her choices to sin. However, he must keep in mind that it may have been his neglect that starved her for security and made her vulnerable to adultery. 

When a woman decides to leave her husband, she is escaping from pain. She was dedicated to the marriage and hung in there for a long time before she felt she could bear no more. She had been looking to her husband for value and significance, but came away feeling neglected and worthless. 

The vast majority of the time a woman wasn't swept off her feet by a guy more handsome than her husband. She was starving for worth or security and welcomed it from a guy who made her feel significant, valuable, or protected.

A woman in an affair is not the same as a wife who just wants to escape the pain of being near her husband. Here are some unique aspects of such a case:

> *A woman in an affair is often there because she was left vulnerable by her husband’s neglect of her heart. This does not justify her actions, but understanding this will help a husband know how to respond in humility.*

> She may have a defiled conscience, and will feel extremely guilty if caught. Exposure of her sin can sometimes bring proper humility to a woman, which will aim her back to her husband’s open arms. Maybe not.

> She may have a defiled conscience, but justifies herself because of her husband’s neglect. Although it would be natural for a husband to be angry with his adulterous wife, she will still feel he owes her for his past neglect, so will see any statements critical of her as unwarranted.

> She has created an emotional and physical bond with someone other than her husband, so no longer thinks clearly. Her judgments are influenced by her passion and hormones. She might actually think of marrying the one she has an affair with, even though he has already shown he has no character and cannot be trusted. Why would a rational person be interested in someone who would violate his wedding vows? Hormones cloud our thinking and make us irrational. A husband should relate with her in all graciousness, so she will consider restoration when her lover and she break up. She must know her husband’s door is open_.


----------



## ButtPunch

Bunch of mind reading if you ask me.

Hope for the best prepare for the worst.

Read what Happyman wrote over and over.


----------



## Thundarr

jld said:


> She told him about the PA right away, her family and friends were told, she goes to church, she goes to Bible study. She has refused alimony. Maybe other people see this as some sort of cover scheme, but I see a woman who simultaneously regrets her actions _and_ knows her needs must be met if she is to truly reconcile.
> 
> Thundarr, have you read this?
> 
> Reconciliation with a Hardened Wife
> 
> He says this is helpful to men with an unfaithful wife as well as to men with a walk away wife.


I have now. Some good points and probably helpful sometimes. But it's condescending toward women as if wives are children and it plays into the 'fixer' mindset that a lot of us men have.


----------



## turnera

He's supposed to respect and honor his wife's wishes. 

She has filed for divorce.

Honor her wishes and proceed with the divorce. 

She's free to stop it at any time, once she sees that he is honoring her wishes by agreeing to giving her space, being nice, and proceeding with the divorce.


----------



## jld

Thundarr said:


> I have now. Some good points and probably helpful sometimes. But it's condescending toward women as if wives are children and it plays into the 'fixer' mindset that a lot of us men have.


I don't think it is condescending. It speaks to my heart as a wife.

I do think it is convicting for husbands, though.


----------



## LongWalk

jld,

I don't believe in demonizing people for the sake of poking fun at them or running them down for a laugh. When Grid defends his wife against accusations here, I think it positive that he sticks by her even if I am unconvinced that she is innocent of some particular alleged wrong-doing.

The fact that he hurts when someone thinks badly of her a natural instinct for a loving spouse. I am sure that his WW still counts on him to stand up for her in many ways even though she is firing him as her husband. People do things that are contradictory. I think you are willing to accept that things are not black or white. We are in agreement.

_She told him about the PA right away._ 

Really?

One of the things that waywards typically do is erase emails and text messages to "protect" the betrayed spouse from reading declarations of love, lust and backstabbing.

At the very least, before she had intercourse with OM, they had physical contact to which she did not confess immediately.

_She goes to church, she goes to Bible study._

I went to church with a cousin in Illinois. It was a mega show with rock music and performance. There was no time for reflection or contemplation. The building was huge and ostentatious. Collecting money was the reason for its existence. It was McSpirituality. 

My mother goes to church. So I have accompanied her a few times. It is a much more modest affair. Closer to whatever I imagine a church ought to be, according to Christian values. Nonetheless, I noticed that some of the people dress to show off. Some of the women exude sex even if their dresses are formally modest. So going to church doesn't tell you what is going on inside someone's head.

I do believe Gridcom's wife is not happy that she cheated. She probably wishes she had simply filed first and then been free to live the life of a single gal.



> She has refused alimony. Maybe other people see this as some sort of cover scheme, but I see a woman who simultaneously regrets her actions and knows her needs must be met if she is to truly reconcile.


Well, short of her appearing to explain herself people will read into things. Filing for divorce was not a cover scheme.

HappyMan is very much a supporter of reconciling for the sake of children. He always reads the facts carefully. Sometimes he just comes straight out and tell s poster to divorce other times he suggests means of improving communication facilitate reconciliation.

He advice for Gridcom is right on.


----------



## Chuck71

LongWalk said:


> jld,
> 
> I don't believe in demonizing people for the sake of poking fun at them or running them down for a laugh. When Grid defends his wife against accusations here, I think it positive that he sticks by her even if I am unconvinced that she is innocent of some particular alleged wrong-doing.
> 
> The fact that he hurts when someone thinks badly of her a natural instinct for a loving spouse. I am sure that his WW still counts on him to stand up for her in many ways even though she is firing him as her husband. People do things that are contradictory. I think you are willing to accept that things are not black or white. We are in agreement.
> 
> _She told him about the PA right away._
> 
> Really?
> 
> One of the things that waywards typically do is erase emails and text messages to "protect" the betrayed spouse from reading declarations of love, lust and backstabbing.
> 
> At the very least, before she had intercourse with OM, they had physical contact to which she did not confess immediately.
> 
> _She goes to church, she goes to Bible study._
> 
> I went to church with a cousin in Illinois. It was a mega show with rock music and performance. There was no time for reflection or contemplation. The building was huge and ostentatious. Collecting money was the reason for its existence. It was McSpirituality.
> 
> My mother goes to church. So I have accompanied her a few times. It is a much more modest affair. Closer to whatever I imagine a church ought to be, according to Christian values. Nonetheless, I noticed that some of the people dress to show off. Some of the women exude sex even if their dresses are formally modest. So going to church doesn't tell you what is going on inside someone's head.
> 
> I do believe Gridcom's wife is not happy that she cheated. She probably wishes she had simply filed first and then been free to live the life of a single gal.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, short of her appearing to explain herself people will read into things. Filing for divorce was not a cover scheme.
> 
> HappyMan is very much a supporter of reconciling for the sake of children. He always reads the facts carefully. Sometimes he just comes straight out and tell s poster to divorce other times he suggests means of improving communication facilitate reconciliation.
> 
> He advice for Gridcom is right on.


I doubt I am alone in this statement...... I would have a great deal of respect for someone if they

conveyed the M is dead and filed immediately, waited until the D was final, posted an ad on Craigslist

and slept with 14 people over a weekend than someone who commits adultery.

This person may very well be the biggest wh0re in the county but had enough integrity to wait until D final.


----------



## bfree

Thundarr said:


> I have now. Some good points and probably helpful sometimes. But it's condescending toward women as if wives are children and it plays into the 'fixer' mindset that a lot of us men have.


That's exactly how I see it as well. To me it's borderline manipulation. It reminds me of the same rhetoric that the red pill/blue pill PUA crowd espouses. And while there is some validity in the premise it doesn't give women enough credit for having their own mind. I know you can pick up a woman at a bar having this type of attitude but in order to have a deeper fulfilling relationship you need to respect her and treat her as an equal.


----------



## Chuck71

Thundarr said:


> I have now. Some good points and probably helpful sometimes. But it's condescending toward women as if wives are children and it plays into the 'fixer' mindset that a lot of us men have.


That mindset may have worked in 1915


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Are some really giving her credit for owning up to the PA? Really?

SHe let love build for at least a year, which is all he can find, then told him after she had sex. Naw, if she had of said the same thing before sex, I'd give her credit. She was in love with this guy and the sex helped her make the final decision. She filed for divorce and has asked for space.
Sorry, she gets no credit for owning up, after a year of lying, from me.


----------



## LongWalk

Gridcom once wrote:



> Tonight was not a good night. After all of your advice tonight, I once again ignored it all and tried to reason with her that giving this marriage every last chance to work was the only proper solution. She's not having it and during the conversation you could clearly tell she was coming from a place of great anger and vindictiveness. *She admitted that she was trying to hurt me by being so open about the affair, hoping to "send me over the edge" and act promptly in anger*.


Also, their youngest daughter, 5, just began kindergarten, the age when mom doesn't have to be around all the time. Timing is every thing.

So there are lies and deceit that have yet to be explored. As Morituri stated Grid must be prepared to get over the anger and bitterness that will come from her deception. Otherwise, he won't be open to reconciliation even though that was his original intention.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

LongWalk said:


> Gridcom once wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Also, their youngest daughter, 5, just began kindergarten, the age when mom doesn't have to be around all the time. Timing is every thing.
> 
> So there are lies and deceit that have yet to be explored. As Mortituri stated Grid must be prepared to get over the anger and bitterness that will come from her deception. Otherwise, he won't be open to reconciliation even though that was his original intention.


*shrugs* Then you guys can post that all day. I'll say give her what she wants all day. The cacophony is growing in saying the affair is a wake up call and his fault, fine. 

Yes, Grid own it. You gave the marriage a heart attack. The affair put it on life support. You keep going in circles even when she gives you positives, there is a negative follow up shortly after. Acquiesce to space and the divorce. She can pull the plug and kill the marriage. Some people need that hard dose of reality before realizing what they are losing or have lost.


----------



## LongWalk

One of life's illusions is that people want freedom of choice. Yes, they do at some level but when things are decided for them, they often acquiesce. On holiday, things usually work best when someone organizes everything well and presents the program as done deal. If the planers decisions were good but not perfect, people will not mind too much. But if there is a whole bunch of discussion and conflict preceding the decision, some will not enjoy it even though there was a vote.

When Grid's wife broke the news about the affair to him she was in essence unable to choose between OM and Grid, so she cast that unpleasant task in his face. It would have been far more courageous if she had simply filed for divorce and told Grid that she was going to be with OM. That would have been decisive. Alternatively, if she had revealed more details of the affair, e.g., the truth about when it started that would that made a quick decision to divorce more likely. She only told him the absolute minimum. She did not try to say that she and OM had only kissed once. 

Grid's wife is not very comfortable in the role of liar and that is a hopeful sign for the future. Hopeful in the context of the generally poor prospects of a lasting reconciliation. Dismissal of divorce petitions usually happens for one reason, the desire to the couple to protect the children from divorce.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

LongWalk said:


> One of life's illusions is that people want freedom of choice.


We will disagree, on my part vehemently, but I'm done with possible derails and side tracks.


----------



## jld

I think they can do it. Grid is strong enough.


----------



## manfromlamancha

jld said:


> I think they can do it. Grid is strong enough.


Do what JLD ? Reconcile and possibly live a lie ?

I actually do not at this stage think that they belong together - and I am saying this just as much for the kids' sake as for Grid's.

Mrs Grid, as I said before, has a million miles to go before she is ready for a reconciliation. Anything less and their life going forward will be a lie and miserable for all.


----------



## jld

manfromlamancha said:


> Do what JLD ? Reconcile and possibly live a lie ?
> 
> I actually do not at this stage think that they belong together - and I am saying this just as much for the kids' sake as for Grid's.
> 
> Mrs Grid, as I said before, has a million miles to go before she is ready for a reconciliation. Anything less and their life going forward will be a lie and miserable for all.


I don't see it that way. I think they probably have the same distance to go. 

I think they love each other and belong together. He messed up, she messed up, and I think they can fix it.

So funny how people are fixated on the PA and not the years of abuse that preceded it.


----------



## manfromlamancha

jld said:


> I don't see it that way. I think they probably have the same distance to go.
> 
> I think they love each other and belong together. He messed up, she messed up, and I think they can fix it.
> 
> So funny how people are fixated on the PA and not the years of abuse that preceded it.


I cannot see the abuse you are referring to - Grid has said he wasn't the best partner but he did try his best and never strayed etc. Like many BS's he tried to take the blame for the cheating at first and it was our job to make him see that it wasn't his fault. I do not see his actions as abuse - at the very worst I see it as normal marital problems that need to be addressed.

On the other hand I am not fixated on the PA - I am more focussed on the lying and the deceit on her side that led up to it and then her actions following it - blame shifting, possible marital history rewriting, the lying and withholding info on what exactly went on before leading up to the PA, and the fact that she is now deciding on what to do based on whether her POSOM is a worthy partner or not. She has decided to leave the marriage because after weighing up options, it best suited her (forget about Grid and the family). She may change her mind about this, but only if it makes things easier for her.

The bottom line is she is not who he thought she was - I don't know if she changed or was truly this person all along. At this stage, it doesn't really matter - the fact is she is now this person and is not what Grid should accept or want.

Finally there is nothing in her actions and words that suggests that they love each other - I can see that Grid loves her but for the life of me cannot see it being reciprocated. It would be so damaging to them both to get back together on this basis. 

And they are not half way there - Grid has some work to do on improving his relationship skills yes - not unsurmountable.

Her on the other hand - she needs to understand that she has lied and manipulated her way into a younger man's bed and has to accept that she really enjoyed it. She has to accept she used any and every excuse she could find to justify doing this.

Once this is done she then has to empathise with the hurt and damage she caused to people who genuinely love her.

Then she has to feel true remorse for doing it, not guilt and remorse at having to out it in order to continue.

Then she has to really really decide if she should be with Grid going forward. And this should be based on whether she once again feels true love for him.

And then she has to prepare for and put up with the hard slog that is reconciliation. 

Is she anywhere near doing ANY of these things. No!


----------



## jld

Is she allowed to wear clothes, man? Or just sackcloth and ashes?


----------



## TeddieG

Fabulous post, ManOfLaMancha!


----------



## turnera

I _am_ curious, JLD, where you see the 'she loves him' stuff. I've read back and I'm missing that.


----------



## jld

I think if she did not love him she would not have told him about the PA. She would not have tolerated her friends and family knowing. She would not be going to church, etc. She would have just made her plan and left. 

I hope that woman is not reading this thread. So many hurtful and possibly slanderous things said about her.


----------



## Keepin-my-head-up

Man from LA mancha.
That was some real sh!t!
To bad it will be ignored but that was truth right there.
It is basically in her hands to decide if she wants to save the marriage.
She is the one who filed and contacted a lawyer.
So telling Grid to save the marriage is pointless because she holds all the cards.
He is just waiting for her to decide


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> I think they can do it. Grid is strong enough.


I agree, Grid is strong enough. Is she? Reconciliation takes both spouses.


----------



## lifeistooshort

I can't say if she actually loves grid or not. I'm actually leaning toward not. She doesn't love him but is realizing that life without him will be hard.

I see is a woman that's been a little beat down by a guy who tended to be controlling and a little mean. ....as I recall grid would throw the divorce word around during arguments. That is done as means of control by someone who never imagined their target might actually have an affair and bolt. 

Her actions have been crappy and unproductive, but I see it much like I see a teenager fighting a parent for control. She has discovered a means to wield some power over grid which she never had.

In this sense jld is correct, she doesn't have as much power as many here give her. Nobody with power Googles "want to leave but hb controls everything".

Unfortunately she is abusing this new found power and is considering the best deal for her. We all do, grid is doing it too. I have no doubt he loves his kids and wants the best for them but somehow it never occurred to him that emotionally and verbally abusing his wife is not good for them. We all have a certain amount of self interest, even those with kids aren't completely altruistic. 

The best course of action is to stop badgering her and see the divorce through. If she wants to stop it and he's still interested he can join her. Badgering her and pushing sex in this case accomplishes nothing except pushing her away and him getting his rocks off. Reconciliation can't happen if she's not all in of her own accord.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lifeistooshort

bfree said:


> I agree, Grid is strong enough. Is she? Reconciliation takes both spouses.


He's not strong enough to stop badgering her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> I think if she did not love him she would not have told him about the PA.
> 
> *She already stated categorically that she told him to hurt him.*
> 
> She would not have tolerated her friends and family knowing.
> 
> *If she planned on walking away it wouldn't matter to her. Burning bridges an all that.*
> 
> She would not be going to church, etc.
> 
> *Trying to assuage her guilt.*
> 
> She would have just made her plan and left.
> 
> *Kinda what she's doing.*
> 
> I hope that woman is not reading this thread.
> 
> *I hope she is. It might knock some sense into her.*
> 
> So many hurtful and possibly slanderous things said about her.
> 
> *Considering what she's done I'd say the posts in this thread have been kind.*


I agree that Grid might have a chance to light the flame of reconciliation but my belief is not based on anything that Mrs. Grid has or hasn't done. I will place my bet on Grid being a stand up guy and (as you say) strong enough to become the best man he can be. As to whether Mrs. Grid will see it or even want to...of that I'm less sure.


----------



## bfree

lifeistooshort said:


> He's not strong enough to stop badgering her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's why I keep pushing detachment. It's his only hope.


----------



## jld

I believe there is love there. And it can grow, with nurturing from her husband.

I did not realize he had threatened divorce during arguments. How frightening from a controlling spouse.


----------



## bfree

lifeistooshort said:


> I can't say if she actually loves grid or not. I'm actually leaning toward not. She doesn't love him but is realizing that life without him will be hard.
> 
> I see is a woman that's been a little beat down by a guy who tended to be controlling and a little mean. ....as I recall grid would throw the divorce word around during arguments. That is done as means of control by someone who never imagined their target might actually have an affair and bolt.
> 
> Her actions have been crappy and unproductive, but I see it much like I see a teenager fighting a parent for control. She has discovered a means to wield some power over grid which she never had.
> 
> In this sense jld is correct, she doesn't have as much power as many here give her. Nobody with power Googles "want to leave but hb controls everything".
> 
> Unfortunately she is abusing this new found power and is considering the best deal for her. We all do, grid is doing it too. I have no doubt he loves his kids and wants the best for them but somehow it never occurred to him that emotionally and verbally abusing his wife is not good for them. We all have a certain amount of self interest, even those with kids aren't completely altruistic.
> 
> The best course of action is to stop badgering her and see the divorce through. If she wants to stop it and he's still interested he can join her. Badgering her and pushing sex in this case accomplishes nothing except pushing her away and him getting his rocks off. *Reconciliation can't happen if she's not all in of her own accord.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Agree!


----------



## jld

If grid had always treated her right, I don't think we would be here discussing this right now.

Amazing how powerful some people think she is.


----------



## Chuck71

LongWalk said:


> One of life's illusions is that people want freedom of choice.


Didn't George Carlin proclaim "freedom is an ILLUSION of choice?"


----------



## TeddieG

bfree said:


> That's why I keep pushing detachment. It's his only hope.


THIS!! 

:iagree::iagree::iagree::lol:


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> I think if she did not love him she would not have told him about the PA. She would not have tolerated her friends and family knowing. She would not be going to church, etc. She would have just made her plan and left.
> 
> I hope that woman is not reading this thread. So many hurtful and possibly slanderous things said about her.


OMG...She said she told him because she wanted to see him hurt. That's sadistic and pure evil. Its like you assume what you think is exactly what Mrs. G is thinking.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

jld,

Grid has by his own admission been shyte towards his wife. He thought that fighting and making up or patching it up or muddling through was part of marriage, even though she explicitly told him that he had pushed her beyond her limits. For this he bears responsibility. He even deserves to be divorced. But he did not deserve to have his wife tell him that she was in love with another man for one year and that this year long love had suddenly, after much restraint and self denial, became hot and juicy.

Her decision to tell him was the ultimate move to shift blame for divorce to him. Had he gone straight to a lawyer and filed, she would been happy. That was primarily what she hoped he would do. When he instead refused to file for divorce, preferring to fight for their marriage and the children's family she found herself thwarted. Her response has been to file for divorce. Her plan A was to hurt him so that he filed. Plan B, which may in part be improvised, is to file for divorce.

Mrs Grid does not love him.

OM's need to resort to the song bird theatrics could be because Mrs Grid has indeed broken off the affair. But she and OM have spoken of a life together. Mrs Grid tore up OM's bed or he would not be so love sick.

I agree with you, jld, that Mrs Grid does not feel powerful or in control. She is still sitting in the victim's chair. She was unhappily married in a codependent relationship and she complicated it with an affair. People have told her that she is doing the wrong thing. The age gap with OM surely causes family to question OM's staying power.

As BP pointed out much of what is discussed here is based on skill of mind reading. Until Mrs Grid pops up and tells her side of the story we can only guess what she thinks and feels based on grid's perceptions.

Do you think the Grid family went to church the past two Sundays?

Grid has done something smart, IMO. He told he wife about TAM and does not care if she habituates this thread because he has been able to declare his love for her and the pain that breaking up their family is causing him. Given that she is a truth seeker and fundamentally decent person, she must be moved at some level. She may feel that he is a fool participating in an online forum. But then she was modern enough to resort to Spotify to stay connected to OM.

Grid has not written anything about his wife drinking, failing to get the kids to school, etc. So she has not allowed the affair to completely disrupt daily life. She not impulsively moved out to OM's apartment, which probably stinks of cigarette smoke.

After spending so much time of TAM, Grid knows that HappyMan's summary is a balanced approach.

Who knows, jld, maybe Mrs Grid finds this thread more bearable because you are here. If she is lurking, what would recommend that she do?


----------



## happyman64

jld said:


> I think they can do it. Grid is strong enough.


It is not Grid's strength, will or conviction that is in question.....

But it takes two to Reconcile while it only takes one to lie, cheat and walk away from the marriage.


----------



## TheGoodGuy

happyman64 said:


> jld said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think they can do it. Grid is strong enough.
> 
> 
> 
> It is not Grid's strength, will or conviction that is in question.....
> 
> But it takes two to Reconcile while it only takes one to lie, cheat and walk away from the marriage.
Click to expand...

QFT!!!! I'm a hopeless romantic and love seeing people work through their respective ****e. I'll never know if it would have worked for me because I was the only one in it to win it. As soon as that became apparent, I filed. turns out I gave her exactly what she wanted. I was lucky though that she gave me little fight and her actions then and today spoke volumes.


----------



## LongWalk

This entire post is well considered:



lifeistooshort said:


> I can't say if she actually loves grid or not. I'm actually leaning toward not. She doesn't love him but is realizing that life without him will be hard....
> 
> 
> *The best course of action is to stop badgering her and see the divorce through. If she wants to stop it and he's still interested he can join her. Badgering her and pushing sex in this case accomplishes nothing except pushing her away and him getting his rocks off. Reconciliation can't happen if she's not all in of her own accord.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



:iagree: Contact with OM will make things more difficult. He will always be a trigger, even if the affair is dead.

How long can the two of them stand being in a marriage without sex and affection?

If they can last until Retrouvaille, their chances will rise. The Catch 22 is that both Grid and his wife must better spouses when their marriage has collapsed and is joyless. Nothing is impossible but both of them will have to change.

Grid did once write that he did not want to be on Match.come and Tinder hooking up with broken dysfunctional women during the remainder of his 40s.


----------



## happyman64

> Nothing is impossible but both of them will have to change.


That is the gist of the situation.

He needs to put his focus on himself. The kids.
If he has an anger issue that is real and not made up by his wife he needs to get help to address that issue.

I was that guy once.

My wife's biggest "threat" to me was that we would not go out together socially anymore.

She never threatened divorce. She never seeked out a boyfriend. She never lied to me, cheated on me nor fell in love with someone else on me.

She never brought another man into my home to hurt me, my marriage or my family.

Mrs. LtoL needs to learn to love herself and respect herself before she can ever contemplate loving her husband or family.

And that is why she filed for divorce. She has a lot to work in herself. And cannot do that while married to the one guy that chooses to still love her after hurting him so badly.....

HM


----------



## jld

Mrs. Grid, your husband is not a victim, and you and I both know it. But more importantly, he knows it. And that is what sets him apart from many other men on TAM.

I am shocked by the nefarious motives projected onto you by some posters here. 

I am so sorry for how you have been hurt. I am sorry for the judgment you must feel. I am so sorry for the way you must have felt unloved for years.

And I am really sorry if I have gotten this all wrong, and not helped you or your husband at all.

Maybe you should just leave him, Mrs. Grid. He has hardly defended you. Has he asked your forgiveness, sincerely asked, for the way he has treated you? Is he making efforts to get hold of his emotions? 

Do you feel like he is genuinely trying to re-earn your trust?

Mrs. Grid, a life without him is going to be financially difficult, at least at first. You are not making much money, and you will both be lucky to walk away from this marriage with no debt. There will be no assets to take with you, either. *I strongly encourage you to ask for alimony.*

The girls are going to suffer from the split. Your older daughter is scared. It is going to take a lot to heal that trauma.

I am not asking you to forgive grid. He will have to earn that forgiveness. I hope he is trying to. This crowd is certainly not helping him with that. They are feeding any sense of self-righteousness and entitlement he may be harboring. Not helpful for his growth.

Someday, if he earns your trust, you will find yourself crying uncontrollably and begging his forgiveness for this affair. You will vow from your heart to make it up to him for the rest of your life. And you will fulfill that vow. That will be the reward he will have earned for his leadership.

You will then do the same for your daughter. She and her sister are also the victims of their father's negligence, and their mother's response to it. They are walking unrepresented through this, holding on as best they can, maybe to each other. With that humility from both your husband and yourself, your daughters will begin to heal. That will be your greatest mutual reward.

You cannot heal this marriage on your own, Mrs. Grid. It has to start with your husband. This marriage was in trauma long before another man entered your life. Your husband created that void. Now he has to work to fill it, and repair the damage.

And when he does, I believe you will respond in kind. And your daughters will be grateful.


----------



## LongWalk

jld,

Do you thing Grid should offer alimony as a gesture of good will?


----------



## turnera

jld said:


> Someday, if he earns your trust, you will find yourself crying uncontrollably and begging his forgiveness for this affair. You will vow from your heart to make it up to him for the rest of your life. And you will fulfill that vow. That will be the reward he will have earned for his leadership.


Mrs. Grid, you can also approach this from the standpoint that since you are the person who stepped outside the marriage, you can try to earn HIS trust back first. He has made it clear he wants to be married to you, wants to make up for the damage HE has caused. Are you ready to do the same?


----------



## jld

LongWalk said:


> jld,
> 
> Do you thing Grid should offer alimony as a gesture of good will?


It is the only decent thing to do. It is what a gentleman would do.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Where's the dislike button?


----------



## LongWalk

What if she resumes her sexual relationship with OM straight after the divorce terms are settled?


----------



## Tron

jld said:


> It is the only decent thing to do. It is what a gentleman would do.


Here honey, I am so glad that you went out and F'd that d0uchebag. 

I'm so glad, that I am going to be a gentleman and pay you to go do it some more. 

Here's $1000 a month. Go knock yourself out...or up...or whatever...

I'll be here waiting for you and pining for you until you get done.


----------



## jld

LongWalk said:


> What if she resumes her sexual relationship with OM straight after the divorce terms are settled?


_Et alors?_

Alimony is based on years of service to the spouse or family, correct? It is to compensate the non-wage earning spouse for the time he or she could have been building a career?

What does that have to do with whatever Mrs. Grid does after a divorce? (Which I still think is unnecessary)

If you change jobs, should you have to leave your 401k behind at the old job? Why can't you take it with you? You earned it, right?


----------



## ButtPunch

Who are we helping here? The OP or his cheating wife?

When did TAM advice turn from a place of self improvement into how do I 
manipulate my cheater back.


----------



## Keepin-my-head-up

Don't offer alimony.
Let the courts decide that.
At the very least, do not take legal advice from us here.

This is the exact reason why you need to contact an attorney and follow thru.
Do not listen to ANY of us as far as financial negotiations.
Discuss those with your lawyer or financial advisor.
If you don't have one, well what are you waiting for?!
Doesn't your wife have one?
Listen, none if us here will be paying your future water bills or bikes for your kids.
Take the Financials seriously and discuss them with the professionals.
To just offer alimony because some think it is gentlemanly is foolhardy at this point.
That should be hashed out by attorneys or in mediation after discussing it with a financial professional


----------



## TeddieG

Keepin-my-head-up said:


> Don't offer alimony.
> Let the courts decide that.
> At the very least, do not take legal advice from us here.
> 
> This is the exact reason why you need to contact an attorney and follow thru.
> Do not listen to ANY of us as far as financial negotiations.
> Discuss those with your lawyer or financial advisor.
> If you don't have one, well what are you waiting for?!
> Doesn't your wife have one?
> Listen, none if us here will be paying your future water bills or bikes for your kids.
> Take the Financials seriously and discuss them with the professionals.
> To just offer alimony because some think it is gentlemanly is foolhardy at this point.
> That should be hashed out by attorneys or in mediation after discussing it with a financial professional



THISSSSS!!!! :iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## bfree




----------



## ButtPunch

bfree said:


> View attachment 39546


This made me laugh out loud. I think your right and I keep taking the bait over and over again.


----------



## TheGoodGuy

ThreeStrikes said:


> Where's the dislike button?


And the vomit icon. Nevermind, this'll have to do. :banghead:


----------



## manfromlamancha

Mrs Grid, 

I sincerely hope that you are now reading this thread on this forum. JLD puts a lot of faith in you and your motives/experience. JLD is a good person and I would like nothing more than for her to be right about you!

So if you are reading, do come on here and explain to us that she is right about you. That you were so hurt that you had to turn to another man to sort your problems out because Grid was so terrible, you couldn't really talk to him about it. How this other man really helped you get through your ordeal.

No doubt you will get flamed because this is a pro marriage/anti cheating forum but I am sure you can muster up the courage to come here and put all of us naysayers to shame.

Like I said - I want JLD to be right here but for the life of me, cannot see it. I sense that JLD is now upset with the rest of us and for that I am truly sorry.

I believe that Grid can be the man you want him to be if JLD is right about things. Help us to help him by coming here and giving us your take on things. Until that happens, I have got to go with helping Grid to the best of our ability.

If also, you do acknowledge that you messed up and instead of dealing with your marital problems in another way you chose a horrible way to deal with it, I for one will not flame you for that - I will try and help you with that too. There are genuinely good people here but experience has shown us that you would be in a minority if JLD is right.

So come on over and help us help Grid. I will keep an open mind but will stay cautious on behalf of Grid.


----------



## LongWalk

Well, jld, two things can now happen. If Grid responded to her petition yesterday as he planned – he may not have if he started talking with a lawyer – he will have come home and I think told her. To not tell her would just be a game since she will be informed shortly by the court in any case. Some couples who have filed for divorce no longer consider themselves married, regardless of the legal formalities. Those who believe their marriages are over may want to start seeing others.

From what Grid wrote it seemed that Mrs Grid agreed that the divorce would be on hold while they worked out the details. But in New York state's laws I didn't see anything about a petition being on hold. More correctly the couple have a 6-month wait for the divorce ruling to become final. Of course, this can be delayed by legal conflict, but even so the 6 months is what the court system is working to deliver. If they filed the same plan for settlement and custody in a uncontested divorce that seeks mediation, then there will be little to hold up the divorce. Of course either one of them can bail from the mediation route. But if they both filed the no alimony proposal by Mrs Grid, she will have to change her mind for the court to do something else.

If Grid offers alimony, that will likely be a covert contract. In other words, I will pay money to try and get back in your life. He could also simply reason that she deserved more and he wanted to give it without caring about what she did post D.

I think Grid has treated his role as breadwinner as a trump card in the power relationship in their marriage. Mrs Grid is sick of this and her desire to skip alimony is a way of saying your money cannot buy her love or control her. Also, she may be seeking to get the divorce as quickly as possible. The commitment to attempt to reconnect on her part may be lukewarm at best and perhaps is non-existent. She may be throwing it out there to reduce his resistance to divorce.

Today she may still conclude that she should have divorced him earlier. But now that the divorce is coming down the road, she may want separation. She used the confession to blow up her marriage. In the remaining months before the divorce becomes final, do you think she will look for ways to reconcile or stop pumping and let the ship sink a soon as possible?


----------



## Sammy64

jld said:


> Mrs. Grid, your husband is not a victim, and you and I both know it. But more importantly, he knows it. And that is what sets him apart from many other men on TAM.
> 
> I am shocked by the nefarious motives projected onto you by some posters here.
> 
> I am so sorry for how you have been hurt. I am sorry for the judgment you must feel. I am so sorry for the way you must have felt unloved for years.
> 
> And I am really sorry if I have gotten this all wrong, and not helped you or your husband at all.
> 
> Maybe you should just leave him, Mrs. Grid. He has hardly defended you. Has he asked your forgiveness, sincerely asked, for the way he has treated you? Is he making efforts to get hold of his emotions?
> 
> Do you feel like he is genuinely trying to re-earn your trust?
> 
> Mrs. Grid, a life without him is going to be financially difficult, at least at first. You are not making much money, and you will both be lucky to walk away from this marriage with no debt. There will be no assets to take with you, either. *I strongly encourage you to ask for alimony.*
> 
> The girls are going to suffer from the split. Your older daughter is scared. It is going to take a lot to heal that trauma.
> 
> I am not asking you to forgive grid. He will have to earn that forgiveness. I hope he is trying to. This crowd is certainly not helping him with that. They are feeding any sense of self-righteousness and entitlement he may be harboring. Not helpful for his growth.
> 
> Someday, if he earns your trust, you will find yourself crying uncontrollably and begging his forgiveness for this affair. You will vow from your heart to make it up to him for the rest of your life. And you will fulfill that vow. That will be the reward he will have earned for his leadership.
> 
> You will then do the same for your daughter. She and her sister are also the victims of their father's negligence, and their mother's response to it. They are walking unrepresented through this, holding on as best they can, maybe to each other. With that humility from both your husband and yourself, your daughters will begin to heal. That will be your greatest mutual reward.
> 
> You cannot heal this marriage on your own, Mrs. Grid. It has to start with your husband. This marriage was in trauma long before another man entered your life. Your husband created that void. Now he has to work to fill it, and repair the damage.
> 
> And when he does, I believe you will respond in kind. And your daughters will be grateful.



I have stayed out of this, but dang REALLY ???? WTH


----------



## Keepin-my-head-up

Her asking for alimony would be something any lawyer would advise.
That should be expected.
As should be expected is that she will ask for full custody.
Those items are usually negotiated by lawyers she has one.
She has filed and has not taken that off the table.
So as far as a divorce goes, she is doing everything correctly.

Grid cannot even muster up the courage to ask her to remove the divorce filing.

He is going half a$$ed with the divorce and half a$$ed with the reconciliation.
No full fledged commitment either way.
What woman would want that?
When it gets real, they found someone who will not be able to take a stand one way or the other.

That is why some people here are encouraging the missus to leave.if you gonna reconcile, ask to stop divorce proceedings and put your heart into it!

If you think the wife is out of line and wants a divorce, then battle plan and prepare!

Saying I'm ok either way is just going to get you the worse of either scenario


----------



## 3Xnocharm

ButtPunch said:


> Who are we helping here? The OP or his cheating wife?
> 
> When did TAM advice turn from a place of self improvement into how do I
> manipulate my cheater back.


When jld gets involved. Never fails.


----------



## TeddieG

Sammy64 said:


> I have stayed out of this, but dang REALLY ???? WTH


I know, unbelievable, right?


----------



## LongWalk

jld is all right. Her heart's in the right place. Besides it's a free Internet and don't forget it.


----------



## Evinrude58

I think he should plan on giving her alimony, full custody, child support, the house, and half his retirement account. That's what he's going to do anyway, if he doesn't get a fair settlement in writing and signed by a judge as soon as possible. He can then ask JLD if she thinks Mrs. Grid STILL has some love for him, and when that love is going to translate into getting his apartment rent and utilities paid.... Sorry, can't help but being a realist here.


----------



## happy as a clam

LongWalk said:


> jld is all right. Her heart's in the right place. Besides it's a free Internet and don't forget it.


jld has her own beliefs, none of which I value any less than my own.

But honestly, I kind of feel like I stepped into the Twilight Zone with that last post... 

Golden Earring... "Twilight Zone"


----------



## Keepin-my-head-up

Nah, jld probably just got frustrated with grid's lack of action.
Wethersfield u want reconciliation or divorce, brother is pu$$yfooting around.


----------



## Keepin-my-head-up

Wether. Not wethersfield


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

I'm sorry, but he told her long ago about this thread. I am kind of shocked, with many of the things that have occurred since the revelation, some of you think she is just reading it now.


----------



## LongWalk

Anytime you go back and reread a longer thread, you will find certain questions that pop up have already been answered. I asked him long ago about going private and he said he did not mind if she came here to lurk and read. That is an expression of love and openness. The forum community does not know them personally, so really the this modern journal writing with exchanges is a form of digital correspondence.

I suspect that Mrs Grid knows about her husband's openness and considers it to be both a positive feature of his personality and an irritation. He may not always have been open with her in his decision making. But they are more than even now because she did not consult him about having a boyfriend. So Grid's openness is challenge to her. She told him that she had consulted with a lawyer just to protect herself but it turned out that she saw a lawyer to file for divorce. If she were here reading, no doubt she would have taken the advice offered Grid and run with the ball.

So far her divorce filing has been honorable. She has not gotten a restraining order against him. Once she went to Best Buy and bought a blender on credit.


----------



## ConanHub

jld said:


> Mrs. Grid, your husband is not a victim, and you and I both know it. But more importantly, he knows it. And that is what sets him apart from many other men on TAM.
> 
> I am shocked by the nefarious motives projected onto you by some posters here.
> 
> I am so sorry for how you have been hurt. I am sorry for the judgment you must feel. I am so sorry for the way you must have felt unloved for years.
> 
> And I am really sorry if I have gotten this all wrong, and not helped you or your husband at all.
> 
> Maybe you should just leave him, Mrs. Grid. He has hardly defended you. Has he asked your forgiveness, sincerely asked, for the way he has treated you? Is he making efforts to get hold of his emotions?
> 
> Do you feel like he is genuinely trying to re-earn your trust?
> 
> Mrs. Grid, a life without him is going to be financially difficult, at least at first. You are not making much money, and you will both be lucky to walk away from this marriage with no debt. There will be no assets to take with you, either. *I strongly encourage you to ask for alimony.*
> 
> The girls are going to suffer from the split. Your older daughter is scared. It is going to take a lot to heal that trauma.
> 
> I am not asking you to forgive grid. He will have to earn that forgiveness. I hope he is trying to. This crowd is certainly not helping him with that. They are feeding any sense of self-righteousness and entitlement he may be harboring. Not helpful for his growth.
> 
> Someday, if he earns your trust, you will find yourself crying uncontrollably and begging his forgiveness for this affair. You will vow from your heart to make it up to him for the rest of your life. And you will fulfill that vow. That will be the reward he will have earned for his leadership.
> 
> You will then do the same for your daughter. She and her sister are also the victims of their father's negligence, and their mother's response to it. They are walking unrepresented through this, holding on as best they can, maybe to each other. With that humility from both your husband and yourself, your daughters will begin to heal. That will be your greatest mutual reward.
> 
> You cannot heal this marriage on your own, Mrs. Grid. It has to start with your husband. This marriage was in trauma long before another man entered your life. Your husband created that void. Now he has to work to fill it, and repair the damage.
> 
> And when he does, I believe you will respond in kind. And your daughters will be grateful.


You have lost any shred of consideration where infidelity is concerned for me.

Unreal and not in a strong way. Your advice is so awful it would be laughable if you weren't serious.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DailyGrind

jld said:


> Mrs. Grid, your husband is not a victim, and you and I both know it. But more importantly, he knows it. And that is what sets him apart from many other men on TAM.
> 
> 
> 
> I am shocked by the nefarious motives projected onto you by some posters here.
> 
> 
> 
> I am so sorry for how you have been hurt. I am sorry for the judgment you must feel. I am so sorry for the way you must have felt unloved for years.
> 
> 
> 
> And I am really sorry if I have gotten this all wrong, and not helped you or your husband at all.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe you should just leave him, Mrs. Grid. He has hardly defended you. Has he asked your forgiveness, sincerely asked, for the way he has treated you? Is he making efforts to get hold of his emotions?
> 
> 
> 
> Do you feel like he is genuinely trying to re-earn your trust?
> 
> 
> 
> Mrs. Grid, a life without him is going to be financially difficult, at least at first. You are not making much money, and you will both be lucky to walk away from this marriage with no debt. There will be no assets to take with you, either. *I strongly encourage you to ask for alimony.*
> 
> 
> 
> The girls are going to suffer from the split. Your older daughter is scared. It is going to take a lot to heal that trauma.
> 
> 
> 
> I am not asking you to forgive grid. He will have to earn that forgiveness. I hope he is trying to. This crowd is certainly not helping him with that. They are feeding any sense of self-righteousness and entitlement he may be harboring. Not helpful for his growth.
> 
> 
> 
> Someday, if he earns your trust, you will find yourself crying uncontrollably and begging his forgiveness for this affair. You will vow from your heart to make it up to him for the rest of your life. And you will fulfill that vow. That will be the reward he will have earned for his leadership.
> 
> 
> 
> You will then do the same for your daughter. She and her sister are also the victims of their father's negligence, and their mother's response to it. They are walking unrepresented through this, holding on as best they can, maybe to each other. With that humility from both your husband and yourself, your daughters will begin to heal. That will be your greatest mutual reward.
> 
> 
> 
> You cannot heal this marriage on your own, Mrs. Grid. It has to start with your husband. This marriage was in trauma long before another man entered your life. Your husband created that void. Now he has to work to fill it, and repair the damage.
> 
> 
> 
> And when he does, I believe you will respond in kind. And your daughters will be grateful.



Wow....just....wow!!!!


----------



## TeddieG

LongWalk said:


> jld is all right. Her heart's in the right place. Besides it's a free Internet and don't forget it.


Hey LW, of course it's a free internet, and no one has forgotten it. But as someone who was cheated on, it is really painful to have the regular refrain of his betrayal being MY fault. Where's the compassion for the person who has been betrayed? I think I've asked that question of jld a few times before, on this very thread, and never got an answer. Her posts are all over this thread. I never hear her say she has any compassion for the cheated-on party. 

And I have her ignored so that I don't have to read her posts, but she shows up in quotes on various posts, and usually I'm successful at blocking her noise out of my head, but that one was just over the top. She's telling a cheating spouse that the husband she cheated on needs to earn her trust. See, you guys think jld is nice, but I don't hear it in her posts. I hear accusation and blame for the party who is profoundly injured. 

jld isn't going to save this marriage, no matter how hard she tries. Only if Mrs. Grid decides to turn around and come home and work on it is the marriage going to be reconciled, possibly, by Grid and Mrs. Grid together. jld won't be there. There's too much that depends on random developments and there's so much that could happen beyond anyone's control, and that's what jld doesn't get. She thinks a man can do ANYthing and should. That's sad, I think. 

But then again, I have always had an issue with absolute certainty, especially when the person who is so certain doesn't live with the consequences of convincing someone to do something "certain."


----------



## turnera

I know jld is right in terms of having the neglectful/aggressive partner own up to what they did. Each of us has our own feelings. 

The problem is that jld has no freaking idea how much it hurts to learn that the ONE person in whom you put your trust chose to let a different person put his penis inside her. Sorry, but it's the truth.

They are COMPLETELY different issues and making up for one cannot make up for the other - ESPECIALLY when the cheater won't even own up to the damage they caused, and instead REMOVED herself from you after informing you.

This whole thing is messed up on both their parts, before and after D-Day. Nobody is handling this right. But neglect and aggression, unless it delved into actual abuse, doesn't GET to be lumped into the same category, the same level of PAIN, as infidelity.

It just doesn't.

I found out my ex-fiance had been cheating on me for THREE years with his old girlfriend, and would have happily married me and continued to keep her on the side for the rest of his life, had he not wrecked MY car on a day trip he was taking with HER, while I worked to pay for that car. Someone who's never been destroyed that way has NO business telling betrayed spouses to just 'work harder, be nicer, feel her pain.'

Grid, if you're even still reading, please understand that while you WANT to do things jld's way because that way you don't have to man up (scary thought, I know), IT WON'T BRING HER BACK. At least not for a long-term relationship. You will always be the doormat that accepted all blame and who will keep asking her to come home after whatever she chooses to do to you.


----------



## TeddieG

turnera said:


> I know jld is right in terms of having the neglectful/aggressive partner own up to what they did. Each of us has our own feelings.
> 
> The problem is that jld has no freaking idea how much it hurts to learn that the ONE person in whom you put your trust chose to let a different person put his penis inside her. Sorry, but it's the truth.
> 
> They are COMPLETELY different issues and making up for one cannot make up for the other - ESPECIALLY when the cheater won't even own up to the damage they caused, and instead REMOVED herself from you after informing you.
> 
> This whole thing is messed up on both their parts, before and after D-Day. Nobody is handling this right. But neglect and aggression, unless it delved into actual abuse, doesn't GET to be lumped into the same category, the same level of PAIN, as infidelity.
> 
> It just doesn't.
> 
> I found out my ex-fiance had been cheating on me for THREE years with his old girlfriend, and would have happily married me and continued to keep her on the side for the rest of his life, had he not wrecked MY car on a day trip he was taking with HER, while I worked to pay for that car. Someone who's never been destroyed that way has NO business telling betrayed spouses to just 'work harder, be nicer, feel her pain.'
> 
> Grid, if you're even still reading, please understand that while you WANT to do things jld's way because that way you don't have to man up (scary thought, I know), IT WON'T BRING HER BACK. At least not for a long-term relationship. You will always be the doormat that accepted all blame and who will keep asking her to come home after whatever she chooses to do to you.


And isn't that the great irony? jld tells Grid to man up, that he should be a strong man, that he should be this kind of man or that kind of man, and as Turnera says, he may be tempted to do it jld's way precisely because "that way you don't have to man up (scary thought, I know)." If jld means that she has to be able to trust him to go through reconciliation with her, that's one thing; if Mrs. Grid needs to feel that he won't retaliate, won't resent her, that's one thing. But nothing he did BEFORE the affair justifies her having it. And HER choice to have it set up the context for neither of them to be able to EVER trust in the same way EVER again.


----------



## ConanHub

LongWalk said:


> jld is all right. Her heart's in the right place. Besides it's a free Internet and don't forget it.


No problem. You don't forget it either. When someone gives advice that won't even serve as fertilizer they can certainly have it pointed out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ThreeStrikes

LongWalk said:


> Anytime you go back and reread a longer thread, you will find certain questions that pop up have already been answered. I asked him long ago about going private and he said he did not mind if she came here to lurk and read. That is an expression of love and openness. The forum community does not know them personally, so really the this modern journal writing with exchanges is a form of digital correspondence.
> 
> I suspect that Mrs Grid knows about her husband's openness and considers it to be both a positive feature of his personality and an irritation. He may not always have been open with her in his decision making. But they are more than even now because she did not consult him about having a boyfriend. So Grid's openness is challenge to her. She told him that she had consulted with a lawyer just to protect herself but it turned out that she saw a lawyer to file for divorce. If she were here reading, no doubt she would have taken the advice offered Grid and run with the ball.
> 
> So far her divorce filing has been honorable. She has not gotten a restraining order against him. Once she went to Best Buy and bought a blender on credit.


I can't tell if you are being sarcastic.

She lied and said she was going to "consult" with a lawyer for her own protection, but she actually filed for D. It just so happens her toxic friend works for this lawyer, and it's not costing her a dime.

So lying, cheating, and not filing a restraining order constitutes "honorable" in your mind, LW?

Honorable?

Hey man, the only things we know about Mrs. Grid are what Grid has told us. I don't think anyone reading this thread can say a positive word about Mrs. Grid's character based on the actions that have been described by Grid.

I've noticed a trend by both you and jld to infer and convey intentions, feelings, and motives attributed to both grid and his WW. Do the two of you have some sort of ESP where you can read Mrs. Grid's mind? Grid's? Look, grid doesn't post very much, and Mrs. Grid not at all. Do you know more than the rest of us about the situation? I really scratch my head at a lot of it.

Let's all get back to 50K and look at the situation objectively, without emotion. Watch what people do, and ignore what they say. 

I see an unrepentant cheater who has filed for D. 

I see a toxic friend helping the cheater wife with the process.

I see a codependent BS who continues to be outwitted and gaslighted by said cheater at every turn. Doormat behavior.

I see a BS who has not even touched the 2 or 3 books recommended to him.

I see a BS who has not performed the 180, or even begun to detach.

Sigh.

I hope Grid goes back a few pages and reads, and re-reads, Happyman's post.

This thread is approaching LifeScript epic-ness. But at least in that thread, he was getting proper advice. He just wouldn't follow it.

I've never seen a BS get so much bad advice as I've seen here. It's astounding.

Grid, stay out of your thread and go read LifeScript, ReGroup, zillard. Some of the best TAMers were still around then. Hopefully reading others' stories will help you.


----------



## LongWalk

Human beings are hardwired to react strongly to infidelity. Civilization had a religious based social organization to begin with, but that has given way to consumer hedonism in which the family is less important. That seems like a broad brush stroke, but how else can one explain the rise of no-fault divorce, not just in the US but in the whole world, outside of the Islamic societies.

The collapse of marriage is normal. As people go over to serial monogamy or nominal serial monogamy with a little cheating on the side, it is natural that those who want to maintain religious values must adapt. The modern law has gone no fault, so modern Christians cannot blame the sinner alone and instead blame the victim. That way the fault is spread round. In fact, after church one Sunday Mrs Grid found scriptural support for an attack on the sh*tty husband for not meeting the wife's needs. Mrs Grid was not reading the Ten Commandments and saying, "Oh, damn did I do that?"

There is no fear of Hell in modern man.


----------



## Keepin-my-head-up

She was civil about the divorce filing I agree.
Honorable?
You say because she didn't file a ro, she is honorable?
They have kids.
She would be responsible full time for them until the ro case was heard.
She probably isn't prepared for that.
She also isn't prepared to leave the home.
It sure as he?? sounds like she is getting ready to do just that tho.
She has taken all the correct steps and if you believe she is covert, well then she has Grid thinking one thing while doing the exact opposite.
Sad thing is,
He can't even work up the courage to ask her.
To ask her to stop the divorce.
That would answer so much and get him prepared for the next steps, whatever those may be.
So he can say he doesn't want to disrupt her comfort by asking, or that he can't find paperwork, etc...
But fear that he will get the answer he doesn't want is keeping him very compliant.

I hope he does something so he can move forward from this rut.
Cause with the divorce is not going to stop progressing without someone stopping it


----------



## TeddieG

LongWalk said:


> Human beings are hardwired to react strongly to infidelity. Civilization had a religious based social organization to begin with, but that has given way to consumer hedonism in which the family is less important. That seems like a broad brush stroke, but how else can one explain the rise of no-fault divorce, not just in the US but in the whole world, outside of the Islamic societies.
> 
> The collapse of marriage is normal. As people go over to serial monogamy or nominal serial monogamy with a little cheating on the side, it is natural that those who want to maintain religious values must adapt. The modern law has gone no fault, so modern Christians cannot blame the sinner alone and instead blame the victim. That way the fault is spread round. In fact, after church one Sunday Mrs Grid found scriptural support for an attack on the sh*tty husband for not meeting the wife's needs. Mrs Grid was not reading the Ten Commandments and saying, "Oh, damn did I do that?"
> 
> There is no fear of Hell in modern man.


Now that's BRILLIANT. And the consumer mentality means if you got yourself a spouse and have buyer's remorse, you got get a new one, but you don't bother to return the original properly before you pick another off the shelf. And religion tends to actually follow and justify consumer mentality, since religion is a consumer commodity as well; there are so many varieties that they're all competing to be the kindest, the gentlest, and the best value for money.


----------



## Chuck71

jld said:


> Mrs. Grid, your husband is not a victim, and you and I both know it. But more importantly, he knows it. And that is what sets him apart from many other men on TAM.
> 
> I am shocked by the nefarious motives projected onto you by some posters here.
> 
> I am so sorry for how you have been hurt. I am sorry for the judgment you must feel. I am so sorry for the way you must have felt unloved for years.
> 
> And I am really sorry if I have gotten this all wrong, and not helped you or your husband at all.
> 
> Maybe you should just leave him, Mrs. Grid. He has hardly defended you. Has he asked your forgiveness, sincerely asked, for the way he has treated you? Is he making efforts to get hold of his emotions?
> 
> Do you feel like he is genuinely trying to re-earn your trust?
> 
> Mrs. Grid, a life without him is going to be financially difficult, at least at first. You are not making much money, and you will both be lucky to walk away from this marriage with no debt. There will be no assets to take with you, either. *I strongly encourage you to ask for alimony.*
> 
> The girls are going to suffer from the split. Your older daughter is scared. It is going to take a lot to heal that trauma.
> 
> I am not asking you to forgive grid. He will have to earn that forgiveness. I hope he is trying to. This crowd is certainly not helping him with that. They are feeding any sense of self-righteousness and entitlement he may be harboring. Not helpful for his growth.
> 
> Someday, if he earns your trust, you will find yourself crying uncontrollably and begging his forgiveness for this affair. You will vow from your heart to make it up to him for the rest of your life. And you will fulfill that vow. That will be the reward he will have earned for his leadership.
> 
> You will then do the same for your daughter. She and her sister are also the victims of their father's negligence, and their mother's response to it. They are walking unrepresented through this, holding on as best they can, maybe to each other. With that humility from both your husband and yourself, your daughters will begin to heal. That will be your greatest mutual reward.
> 
> You cannot heal this marriage on your own, Mrs. Grid. It has to start with your husband. This marriage was in trauma long before another man entered your life. Your husband created that void. Now he has to work to fill it, and repair the damage.
> 
> And when he does, I believe you will respond in kind. And your daughters will be grateful.



I asked the girl I am seeing to buy me a pair of 6 inch stiletto 
heels. I will need them to wade through this.

In my field of work, I am asked to see things from "other points of view"

I read this earlier... thought I HAD to have read this wrong. I did tonight with a bottle of JD,

Black Sabbath playing in background, and Saw III on the tele.

I even heard Ozzy in the background yelling "no....no....no... what human would do this"

I have evaluated people at mental facilities and prisons...... the crazies of the crazy.....

and this post just makes me SMFH in disbelief


----------



## Chuck71

LongWalk said:


> jld is all right. Her heart's in the right place. Besides it's a free Internet *and don't forget it.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> :scratchhead:


----------



## gridcom

Hi all

I am still here; still reading. I can confirm Mrs. Grid is reading too. She's here. I don't think she'll post, though. She thinks by and large I need to eradicate this thread and this place from my brain. I don't agree. I will tell you that I DID ask her to withdraw the divorce paperwork and she said no. She says she wants to keep that in play while we figure out our future no matter what direction. I have responded to the divorce and that's how it's rolling legally. 

She still wants to ultimately do mediation, and she doesn't understand that now two lawyers have told me you should withdraw the divorce before mediation. I am assuming her lawyer will give her same advice since the two lawyers I asked said "absolutely" as if in their line of work it's a no brainer. In my line of work, I only respond that way when the question is completely silly. Anyway, we are still working towards a reconciliation right now. That is the common goal. She waffles and it's frustrating. I'd much prefer her to explain the waffling but she really cant explain it to me, so she wont likely explain it you. jld might hit it out of the park, honestly, if you asked her why my wife is waffling. I can hear it now. "She's waffling because she's still unsure and it'll be that way for some time. It took a long time for her to divorce you in her mind, it will take time to reconcile" Patience, as you may now know, isn't my strong suit. 

That said, I am very much prepared legally for whatever may come. I am 1000% protecting my interests. I told her and I'll tell you all. If we are going to divide a 3 course meal of sh*t, I am going to make sure I get my fair share of sh*t (or lack thereof). I am NOT however, detaching. 

She is NOT seeing the other guy. I believe her. There was a period at the beginning of this thing maybe the first 5 or 6 weeks where it was her #1 goal, but it isnt right now. For those of you who think, without knowing her at all, that she absolutely is still banging this dude, your comments right now are irrelevant. Can that change down the road? Can she fall back into his lap? Sure, most definitely. They work together and they see each other in person. What goes on when that happens, who knows. But, I am taking her word for it. I am absolutely insisting she quit that job when we get to a point that we are committed to a future together, and understand that we currently are not. That is an ultimatum that will not change. The irony of the whole thing is that she's going to end up leaving that job regardless because she wont be able to afford to live on 20k a year in ritzy Westchester County. Whatever. Now is not the time to make demands.

I have been hesitant to write because A) I'm just not as anxious or emotional as I was even 4 weeks ago. And B) every update from me makes this thread grow by 10 pages at a clip. And C) She is here now, to some level, reading. She's admitted to reading occasionally, but who knows what that means. I guess she does it on her phone. That must be annoying to read on a phone.

Anyway, this is my play, for better or worse. We both supposedly want the same thing, but that doesnt mean we just say "OK, we're together again! Lets rug sweep the whole thing and get back to being better than ever!" There is a lot of hurt and pain. Speaking for myself, I feel a lot of pain for what happened. It's still relatively raw, although not pussie and leaking toxins like it was earlier. I am focused on my side of the street, and that's about it for now

We are going to Retrouvaille mid Nov


----------



## TeddieG

""She's waffling because she's still unsure and it'll be that way for some time. It took a long time for her to divorce you in her mind, it will take time to reconcile" 

That's not unique or specific to jld; that's what any MLC or infidelity forum or therapist experienced with infidelity will tell you when a partner is looking back over their shoulder to see if there might be some chance of considering reconciliation. I've been hearing it for 7 years, in other places. When somebody comes out of the fog and realizes what they did to someone they might still love, it's sometimes a long road back. 

You sound strong and resolute and sure of your path. The best part is, you'll be fine either way. Good luck and thanks for the update.


----------



## Chuck71

ThreeStrikes said:


> I can't tell if you are being sarcastic.
> 
> She lied and said she was going to "consult" with a lawyer for her own protection, but she actually filed for D. It just so happens her toxic friend works for this lawyer, and it's not costing her a dime.
> 
> So lying, cheating, and not filing a restraining order constitutes "honorable" in your mind, LW?
> 
> Honorable?
> 
> Hey man, the only things we know about Mrs. Grid are what Grid has told us. I don't think anyone reading this thread can say a positive word about Mrs. Grid's character based on the actions that have been described by Grid.
> 
> I've noticed a trend by both you and jld to infer and convey intentions, feelings, and motives attributed to both grid and his WW. Do the two of you have some sort of ESP where you can read Mrs. Grid's mind? Grid's? Look, grid doesn't post very much, and Mrs. Grid not at all. Do you know more than the rest of us about the situation? I really scratch my head at a lot of it.
> 
> Let's all get back to 50K and look at the situation objectively, without emotion. Watch what people do, and ignore what they say.
> 
> I see an unrepentant cheater who has filed for D.
> 
> I see a toxic friend helping the cheater wife with the process.
> 
> I see a codependent BS who continues to be outwitted and gaslighted by said cheater at every turn. Doormat behavior.
> 
> I see a BS who has not even touched the 2 or 3 books recommended to him.
> 
> I see a BS who has not performed the 180, or even begun to detach.
> 
> Sigh.
> 
> I hope Grid goes back a few pages and reads, and re-reads, Happyman's post.
> 
> This thread is approaching LifeScript epic-ness. But at least in that thread, he was getting proper advice. He just wouldn't follow it.
> 
> I've never seen a BS get so much bad advice as I've seen here. It's astounding.
> 
> *Grid, stay out of your thread and go read LifeScript, ReGroup, zillard. Some of the best TAMers were still around then. Hopefully reading others' stories will help you*.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

I also recommend

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-through-divorce-separation/164673-long-painful-path.html

Not even 40 pages

Somewhere in the GTDoS section I left links to 4-5 great threads for newbies almost a year ago.

Or Grid.... just read my two backstories.... the first is all of 50 posts, the other 135.

Why so short? I took care of business and didn't waver.


----------



## LongWalk

gridcom said:


> Hi all
> 
> I am still here; still reading. I can confirm Mrs. Grid is reading too. She's here. I don't think she'll post, though. She thinks by and large I need to eradicate this thread and this place from my brain. I don't agree.


Your wife should be grateful that you're here. It kept you sane. These sorts of threads do have one negative affect for the cheater or other spouse. You will get ideas, suggestions and insights that make you smarter. You wife may not want you to have this resource. But she can start her own thread on Surviving Infidelity or Love Shack.

If your wife comes, we won't let the angry people flame her... okay, we'll cold water on... if she is honest. Honesty goes a long way.



> I will tell you that I DID ask her to withdraw the divorce paperwork and she said no. She says she wants to keep that in play while we figure out our future no matter what direction. I have responded to the divorce and that's how it's rolling legally.


So her complaint and your reply or petition and answer or whatever they are called are pretty much complete minus some details?



> She still wants to ultimately do mediation, and she doesn't understand that now two lawyers have told me you should withdraw the divorce before mediation. I am assuming her lawyer will give her same advice since the two lawyers I asked said "absolutely" as if in their line of work it's a no brainer. In my line of work, I only respond that way when the question is completely silly.


How did you find the right paper?



> Anyway, we are still working towards a reconciliation right now. That is the common goal. She waffles and it's frustrating. I'd much prefer her to explain the waffling but she really cant explain it to me, so she wont likely explain it you. jld might hit it out of the park, honestly, if you asked her why my wife is waffling. I can hear it now. "She's waffling because she's still unsure and it'll be that way for some time. It took a long time for her to divorce you in her mind, it will take time to reconcile" Patience, as you may now know, isn't my strong suit.


She is waffling for any number of reasons:

1) She is not entirely over OM. Being is love is not an on off emotion. Sure when forced to choose, people take a sharp turn. But is you look at SI's wayward or Love Shack, you can read about the pain of losing the affair parter. Falling out of love takes time. Depends on the affair. If man starts banging a hot younger woman who is naive and innocent, that may suck him in emotionally but it is the flattery of her attention perhaps that is more important than her personality.

Your wife's AP was an emotional relationship to start. The friendship and mutual admiration. The exchange of opinions about the world drew them together rather than just sexual lust.

If you stand straight, are not needy, are keeping your temper, being a good listener, you may make a come back. Don't pester her for sex. If you go month after month, without it you'll know that your marriage is doomed.



> That said, I am very much prepared legally for whatever may come. I am 1000% protecting my interests. I told her and I'll tell you all. If we are going to divide a 3 course meal of sh*t, I am going to make sure I get my fair share of sh*t (or lack thereof). I am NOT however, detaching.





> She is NOT seeing the other guy. I believe her. There was a period at the beginning of this thing maybe the first 5 or 6 weeks where it was her #1 goal, but it isnt right now. For those of you who think, without knowing her at all, that she absolutely is still banging this dude, your comments right now are irrelevant. Can that change down the road? Can she fall back into his lap? Sure, most definitely. They work together and they see each other in person. What goes on when that happens, who knows


.

When you wife sees him she may feel an enormous amount of desire to wrap her arms around him and plant her head on his shoulder. That is just bad for her detox from the love state.

She will not fall back into his lap involuntarily. If she does it, it will be conscious decision to escape responsibility by creating chaos. It is one thing for her to say to you now that she chose him and wants to separate now. It is completely wrong to say she is trying while they still have contact. 



> But, I am taking her word for it. I am absolutely insisting she quit that job when we get to a point that we are committed to a future together, and understand that we currently are not. That is an ultimatum that will not change.


Brave talk, my friend, for your ultimatum has no teeth. Did you set down a end of limbo deadline? I did not think so. Currently you are committed to divorce. You are drinking Cool aid on this count.

In MC you need to talk about this.

1) Did OM promise her he would wait for her on the other side no matter how long it took her to get free?

I think he did. He only has to look at her from a far twice a week and smile and that promise renewed.

2) In MC you can also ask, if she fantasizes about him sexually and romantically? If she is, she is nurturing the affair and not truly in R. 



> The irony of the whole thing is that she's going to end up leaving that job regardless because she wont be able to afford to live on 20k a year in ritzy Westchester County. Whatever. Now is not the time to make demands.


Is your wife still distant?



> I have been hesitant to write because A) I'm just not as anxious or emotional as I was even 4 weeks ago. And B) every update from me makes this thread grow by 10 pages at a clip. And C) She is here now, to some level, reading. She's admitted to reading occasionally, but who knows what that means. I guess she does it on her phone. That must be annoying to read on a phone.


If she is here at all, she reading everything. She can easily read on Tappatalk or some other smart phone app. 



> Anyway, this is my play, for better or worse. We both supposedly want the same thing, but that doesnt mean we just say "OK, we're together again! Lets rug sweep the whole thing and get back to being better than ever!" There is a lot of hurt and pain. Speaking for myself, I feel a lot of pain for what happened. It's still relatively raw, although not pussie and leaking toxins like it was earlier. I am focused on my side of the street, and that's about it for now


Here's a song you can put on your play list, 



> We are going to Retrouvaille mid Nov


Are you still going to church?


----------



## Chuck71

Zillard's XW did come on his thread.... they were back together but not re-married.

It went nowhere because posters were asking her the pointed questions and in a polite way but.....

any snippet she did not like or want to be said, she became hyper defensive and shut down.


----------



## gridcom

longwalk said:


> your wife should be grateful that you're here. It kept you sane. These sorts of threads do have one negative affect for the cheater or other spouse. You will get ideas, suggestions and insights that make you smarter. You wife may not want you to have this resource. But she can start her own thread on surviving infidelity or love shack.
> 
> If your wife comes, we won't let the angry people flame her... Okay, we'll cold water on... If she is honest. Honesty goes a long way.
> 
> 
> 
> So her complaint and your reply or petition and answer or whatever they are called are pretty much complete minus some details?
> 
> correct
> 
> how did you find the right paper?
> 
> went to the court house and asked at the help desk
> 
> she is waffling for any number of reasons:
> 
> 1) she is not entirely over om. Being is love is not an on off emotion. Sure when forced to choose, people take a sharp turn. But is you look at si's wayward or love shack, you can read about the pain of losing the affair parter. Falling out of love takes time. Depends on the affair. If man starts banging a hot younger woman who is naive and innocent, that may suck him in emotionally but it is the flattery of her attention perhaps that is more important than her personality.
> 
> Your wife's ap was an emotional relationship to start. The friendship and mutual admiration. The exchange of opinions about the world drew them together rather than just sexual lust.
> 
> If you stand straight, are not needy, are keeping your temper, being a good listener, you may make a come back. Don't pester her for sex. If you go month after month, without it you'll know that your marriage is doomed.
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> When you wife sees him she may feel an enormous amount of desire to wrap her arms around him and plant her head on his shoulder. That is just bad for her detox from the love state.
> 
> She will not fall back into his lap involuntarily. If she does it, it will be conscious decision to escape responsibility by creating chaos. It is one thing for her to say to you now that she chose him and wants to separate now. It is completely wrong to say she is trying while they still have contact.
> 
> 
> 
> Brave talk, my friend, for your ultimatum has no teeth. Did you set down a end of limbo deadline? I did not think so. Currently you are committed to divorce. You are drinking cool aid on this count.
> 
> to say on deadline. I think our marriage right now is pre-retrouvaille and post retrouvaille. I guess i'd say if we are still in reconciliation come thanksgiving, that'd be a clear sign that it's time to quit the job. There is no marriage with her working with him. That said, it takes two people to commit
> 
> in mc you need to talk about this.
> 
> 1) did om promise her he would wait for her on the other side no matter how long it took her to get free?
> 
> I think he did. He only has to look at her from a far twice a week and smile and that promise renewed.
> 
> i very much imagine this to be the case, despite what she tells me
> 
> 2) in mc you can also ask, if she fantasizes about him sexually and romantically? If she is, she is nurturing the affair and not truly in r.
> 
> 
> 
> Is your wife still distant?
> 
> sometimes, yes. My main point of contention is, while i am very much a "do-er", she is the total opposite. She doesnt "do" much to address the issue. Sure, she filed, because her friend told her that was the way to go. It's amazing that her sister, who is her best friend is 2nd on the list of advice, along with her best friend here in town, are behind this woman who works for a lawyer, knows the language, and is pushing my wife towards divorce. Meanwhile, her sister and best friend knew nothing and were pretty surprised/bummed. In fact, her sister was insulted that she wasn't consulted.
> 
> My wife spends way too much time with her face in her phone, mindlessly looking at facebook and instagram and etc. Living through other peoples lives while not at all addressing her own. Pisses me off
> 
> if she is here at all, she reading everything. She can easily read on tappatalk or some other smart phone app.
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a song you can put on your play list,
> 
> 
> 
> are you still going to church?


yes, i have missed one sunday since i started going. I actually like going very much. I'm back to playing softball on sundays, so i miss the music portion. I really just go for the sermon, which is at the end. Sometimes it puts me to sleep, sometimes its awesome. You never know. My kids like it that i go and i am (slowly) reading the bible. Good book, that book.


----------



## gridcom

Chuck71 said:


> Zillard's XW did come on his thread.... they were back together but not re-married.
> 
> It went nowhere because posters were asking her the pointed questions and in a polite way but.....
> 
> any snippet she did not like or want to be said, she became hyper defensive and shut down.


This is an issue for Mrs. Grid as well. When you ask her a question she cant answer with any logic or reason, or if you lawyer her or box her in using common sense and logic, she'll either get up and walk away (literally) or she'll change the subject (usually to something that puts you on the defensive instead, regardless of if it's relevant)


----------



## turnera

How can you expect to have reconciliation with THAT?


----------



## Chuck71

gridcom said:


> yes, i have missed one sunday since i started going. I actually like going very much. I'm back to playing softball on sundays, so i miss the music portion. In really just go for the sermon, which is at the end. Sometimes it puts me to sleep, sometimes its awesome. You never know. My kids like it that i go and i am (slowly) readng the bible. Good book, that book.


LW called it McSpirituality. I see his point. I believe in a "higher power" but have little use for 98% of organized religion.

Like you.... I have attended churches where the music and flashing lights, speakers, megatron screens

give me flashbacks to a Motley Crue concert in 1987. Where I live.... it is still common to get a better sermon

from a pastor who dropped out of HS than a "suit" with three degrees in theology.


----------



## gridcom

turnera said:


> How can you expect to have reconciliation with THAT?


I don't "expect" to reconcile. I expect to get divorced. I "hope" to reconcile. My kids would want us, two pendulums swinging opposite of each other, to align for just a minute and see if we can make it work for THEM. 

You don't stay together and unhappliy married for the kids, but you DO try your best to save your marriage and make it legit and real for the kids.

That said, I expect divorce.


----------



## gridcom

Chuck71 said:


> LW called it McSpirituality. I see his point. I believe in a "higher power" but have little use for 98% of organized religion.
> 
> Like you.... I have attended churches where the music and flashing lights, speakers, megatron screens
> 
> give me flashbacks to a Motley Crue concert in 1987. Where I live.... it is still common to get a better sermon
> 
> from a pastor who dropped out of HS than a "suit" with three degrees in theology.


No, this church is pretty low key. I grew up Catholic and I hated it. I didnt like MASS and Palm Sunday and the Rosary and the blood and the flesh and the cross and the kneel, stand, sit, stand, kneel and the robes...

These people are just normal people gathering. The band is nothing special. I am in the music business. I'm immersed in BANDS. It's not all show-y at all. That would be a turn off


----------



## Chuck71

gridcom said:


> No, this church is pretty low key. I grew up Catholic and I hated it. I didnt like MASS and Palm Sunday and the Rosary and the blood and the flesh and the cross and the kneel, stand, sit, stand, kneel and the robes...
> 
> These people are just normal people gathering. The band is nothing special. I am in the music business. I'm immersed in BANDS. It's not all show-y at all. That would be a turn off


I dabbled in Catholicism in college.... wasn't my deal. I'm ways out in the country and small churches 

are still the majority. Only drawback is some are "family" churches and unless you are not

cookie cut in their beliefs.... you aren't asked to leave, they just treat you like you have the plague and

you leave on your own. FrustratedMan is a TAM poster and he is in the music biz too


----------



## Thundarr

gridcom said:


> Hi all. I am suddenly faced with the news that my wife just this week got intimate with a co-worker who she claims she has been in love with for a year unbeknownst to me. We have been together 19 years, and married for 13 years. We have two girls, ages 10 and 5. She wants this marriage to end so she can "follow her heart" and pursue a new life with this man. She admits her desire for this is so strong that it comes before all the obvious consequences.
> I, of course, am devastated. Unfortunately, I cannot claim to be the best husband or a victim. I have taken much of this marriage for granted and although I have never strayed myself and have scored highly when it comes to being a provider, friend and father, when it comes to being a partner I admittedly have failed. I do love my wife very much and I am sure that I have my own emotional issues that have never been addressed. She has been the giver and I have been the taker and now, of course, I'm consumed with regret and fear. I am also dwelling on the negative side of me. I think there is a caring and loving side of me (towards her) that is being buried right now.
> 
> I have reached out to a number of therapists. I have yet to talk to one. I feel we need to talk to someone right away. I am not sure why I feel that it needs to be right away, other than I feel that her taking it to a physical level this week has greatly accelerated these feelings and she admits that she cannot help herself. Her mood and demeanor has shifted a few times over the course of this week, from agreeing to end it with this man and work towards therapy both as a couple and individually (for me) to the total opposite where she is trying to provoke me into losing my sh*t by telling me in every way how this love is for real and there is no coming back from it. Of course, I want to explore every last option.
> 
> This sucks in every way. Maybe you all can help


Good luck in your attempt to reconcile Grid. I thought I'd re-read your original post from 7/10/15 for clarity. One thing I notice is that your wife was in love with this guy for a year before you knew about it and that's important because you're pretty quick to assign blame to yourself. It's important for you to remember that during that year you where at a disadvantage.


----------



## farsidejunky

gridcom said:


> I don't "expect" to reconcile. I expect to get divorced. I "hope" to reconcile. My kids would want us, two pendulums swinging opposite of each other, to align for just a minute and see if we can make it work for THEM.
> 
> You don't stay together and unhappliy married for the kids, but you DO try your best to save your marriage and make it legit and real for the kids.
> 
> That said, I expect divorce.


Why would you "hope" to reconcile with that then?

Reconciliation has to be two sided. Without her diving into those issues, you are effectively rug sweeping the affair. In other words, false reconciliation. 

It is your life, Grid, but until she is willing to look at these things, your marriage is over.


----------



## gridcom

farsidejunky said:


> Reconciliation has to be two sided. Without her diving into those issues, you are effectively rug sweeping the affair. In other words, false reconciliation.
> 
> It is your life, Grid, but until she is willing to look at these things, your marriage is over.


Don't disagree at all. Doesn't mean I have to "make" her do it on my schedule. Why the rush?

Again, not at all denying that certain things have to happen, and I legitimately mean HAVE to, but this is not a race.


----------



## LongWalk

gridcom said:


> I don't "expect" to reconcile. I expect to get divorced. I "hope" to reconcile. My kids would want us, two pendulums swinging opposite of each other, to align for just a minute and see if we can make it work for THEM.
> 
> You don't stay together and unhappliy married for the kids, but you DO try your best to save your marriage and make it legit and real for the kids.
> 
> That said, I expect divorce.


 Not happy that you are pessimistic, but I think realism actually gives you the best shot at saving your marriage. As BP put it hope for the best but plan for the worst.

Your wife is conflict avoidant. Since she has long felt the weaker part in arguments, she needs to commit to marriage of her own accord, not under duress. No manipulation. Retrouvaille will give you a chance to talk.

One of her problems now is that she can probably see that OM doesn't present a strong economic case for a long term relationship. Getting your daughters to bond with him is huge and risky project. It's not like he is a divorced single dad who has siblings who might potentially be fun. He sounds like meeting the needs of a woman is already a maxing him out.

That leaves your wife with divorce and start anew as a single mom. That is not such a great prospect. She would have to date older men. That's what happens as the sex ranking swings in favor of men later in life.

She also has to deal with pride now. To have fallen out of love with you and have to some how stay together that's a bit humiliating. 

I wonder if couples have sex at Retrouvaille? Must be glum if the food is bad.


----------



## gridcom

LongWalk said:


> Not happy that you are pessimistic, but I think realism actually gives you the best shot at saving your marriage. As BP put it hope for the best but plan for the worst.
> 
> Your wife is conflict avoidant. Since she has long felt the weaker part in arguments, she needs to commit to marriage of her own accord, not under duress. No manipulation. Retrouvaille will give you a chance to talk.
> 
> One of her problems now is that she can probably see that OM doesn't present a strong economic case for a long term relationship. Getting your daughters to bond with him is huge and risky project. It's not like he is a divorced single dad who has siblings who might potentially be fun. He sounds like meeting the needs of a woman is already a maxing him out.
> 
> That leaves your wife with divorce and start anew as a single mom. That is not such a great prospect. She would have to date older men. That's what happens as the sex ranking swings in favor of men later in life.
> 
> She also has to deal with pride now. To have fallen out of love with you and have to some how stay together that's a bit humiliating.
> 
> I wonder if couples have sex at Retrouvaille? Must be glum if the food is bad.


I spoke with Retrouvaille today; did my interview. Sounds pretty hardcore. Sounds like you are there to fight the issues in your marriage. I'm into it. You sleep in a church. At least at this one you do. 

So far 23 out of 25 couples are signed up for something one month away.


----------



## farsidejunky

gridcom said:


> Don't disagree at all. Doesn't mean I have to "make" her do it on my schedule. Why the rush?
> 
> Again, not at all denying that certain things have to happen, and I legitimately mean HAVE to, but this is not a race.


My concern is for you saying the same thing six months from now, with you trying to be the best you, and her still holding out because you "deserve it".

Not a race. But it is also completely fair for you to have expectations, not just hers. And quite frankly, I don't know how you can even consider reconciliation without knowing the extent of the affair.

Honest question:

Is she still trying to hurt you? You had alluded to that being the reason she disclosed the affair and filed, right?


----------



## farsidejunky

LongWalk said:


> She also has to deal with pride now. To have fallen out of love with you and have to some how stay together that's a bit humiliating.


I hope this is not true, LW.

This to me would represent a near worst case scenario. It means another affair is imminent.


----------



## Keepin-my-head-up

You are not the doer in this scenario,
She had the affair, she contacted the lawyer and she filed for divorce.

You waffled and reacted instead of acted.

Mrs. Grid knows exactly what she is doing and doing it well
You are not.

you on the other hand want her to read this because you think she will see some logic in certain posts that will get her to see how sincere you are in getting her back.

Instead, she will see that none of the action you take is an original idea.
Mrs. Grid,
I see why you did what you did now.
It doesn't make it right.

Truth is, that young man you were with didn't have to put in much effort because you knew you could have him and you knew how your husband would react.

But you waited because you couldn't do that to your daughters right?

As time went by, you realized that Grid wasn't the man that you thought you loved and respected.
you then followed thru with the affair.

The logic was that you were going to leave Grid.
You came to that conclusion.
You realized he had no spine and was kind of a d!ck to you.
So to make him hurt, you told him of the affair to get him back.

Now you have him going thru all these hoops with your heart already set on leaving.
This way you can say you did everything you could to save the marriage.

But you have a timeframe don't you.
That is why you can't take the divorce papers off the table.

I give you a lot of credit.
I would not mess around with a girl like you!
Respect


----------



## Keepin-my-head-up

And not that it matters but, with that Im out.
Good luck to all


----------



## gridcom

farsidejunky said:


> Honest question:
> 
> Is she still trying to hurt you? You had alluded to that being the reason she disclosed the affair and filed, right?


I dont think she is trying to hurt me intentionally. The waffling and the talking out of both sides of her mouth hurts, but I think she is just conflicted/confused and traumatized in her own way


----------



## Evinrude58

Grid.

Run.

Your wife is not the person you once knew. 

You are headed for a train wreck of epic proportions.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

ConanHub said:


> jld said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mrs. Grid, your husband is not a victim, and you and I both know it. But more importantly, he knows it. And that is what sets him apart from many other men on TAM.
> 
> I am shocked by the nefarious motives projected onto you by some posters here.
> 
> I am so sorry for how you have been hurt. I am sorry for the judgment you must feel. I am so sorry for the way you must have felt unloved for years.
> 
> And I am really sorry if I have gotten this all wrong, and not helped you or your husband at all.
> 
> Maybe you should just leave him, Mrs. Grid. He has hardly defended you. Has he asked your forgiveness, sincerely asked, for the way he has treated you? Is he making efforts to get hold of his emotions?
> 
> Do you feel like he is genuinely trying to re-earn your trust?
> 
> Mrs. Grid, a life without him is going to be financially difficult, at least at first. You are not making much money, and you will both be lucky to walk away from this marriage with no debt. There will be no assets to take with you, either. *I strongly encourage you to ask for alimony.*
> 
> The girls are going to suffer from the split. Your older daughter is scared. It is going to take a lot to heal that trauma.
> 
> I am not asking you to forgive grid. He will have to earn that forgiveness. I hope he is trying to. This crowd is certainly not helping him with that. They are feeding any sense of self-righteousness and entitlement he may be harboring. Not helpful for his growth.
> 
> Someday, if he earns your trust, you will find yourself crying uncontrollably and begging his forgiveness for this affair. You will vow from your heart to make it up to him for the rest of your life. And you will fulfill that vow. That will be the reward he will have earned for his leadership.
> 
> You will then do the same for your daughter. She and her sister are also the victims of their father's negligence, and their mother's response to it. They are walking unrepresented through this, holding on as best they can, maybe to each other. With that humility from both your husband and yourself, your daughters will begin to heal. That will be your greatest mutual reward.
> 
> You cannot heal this marriage on your own, Mrs. Grid. It has to start with your husband. This marriage was in trauma long before another man entered your life. Your husband created that void. Now he has to work to fill it, and repair the damage.
> 
> And when he does, I believe you will respond in kind. And your daughters will be grateful.
> 
> 
> 
> You have lost any shred of consideration where infidelity is concerned for me.
> 
> Unreal and not in a strong way. Your advice is so awful it would be laughable if you weren't serious.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
Click to expand...

Omg, FINALLY!! An honest voice of reason and common sense! Jld's post on this is one of the worst and most ridiculous things I've ever read on here, I am floored that anybody has been listening to her throughout this whole thread!


----------



## Chuck71

3Xnocharm said:


> Omg, FINALLY!! An honest voice of reason and common sense! Jld's post on this is one of the worst and most ridiculous things I've ever read on here, I am floored that anybody has been listening to her throughout this whole thread!


110% agree.

I'm sure he would be a gentleman if there was a lady present.

A lady does not conduct herself in the manner Mrs. Grid has.

WS usually deem a nickname for quick reference......

I would suggest Ear Wax..... she does not want to hear the truth....

Bowel movement would have been great but LoneShadow's BSC W has it


----------



## happy as a clam

ThreeStrikes said it best... grid should probably nuke this thread. It has gone completely off the rails. If Mrs. Grid is reading, she will find ample ammo from "certain" posters to justify her affair.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

farsidejunky said:


> My concern is for you saying the same thing six months from now, with you trying to be the best you, and her still holding out because you "deserve it".
> 
> Not a race. But it is also completely fair for you to have expectations, not just hers. And quite frankly, *I don't know how you can even consider reconciliation without knowing the extent of the affair.*
> 
> Honest question:
> 
> Is she still trying to hurt you? You had alluded to that being the reason she disclosed the affair and filed, right?


:iagree:

The truth about the affair is a major issue. There are many aspects to this, all of which are very toxic. Way back Chuck threw out the history of the WW who gargled OM's semen and then came home and deep kissed her husband. Grid reacted to this with, "not my cheating wife, no way." However, since his wife was trying to hurt him, this is exactly the sort behavior that "just happens".

A lot happens in a year long affair. Grid trusted his wife, who worked evenings. If she got home late after a quickie with OM, had she always showered first? In the end even if she did shower and brush her teeth, she placed Grid super close to the dreaded sloppy seconds.

When a husband doesn't perceive this degradation, the wife loves him even less. She is destroying him, hurting him. This may also create guilt and self loathing. Hence, the "I-don't-want-alimony" stance could be a sort of damage payment for damage that Grid does not perceive. He has acknowledged that there could be some unpleasant secrets, but he is rug sweeping them for the time being in the hopes of preserving his family. It's magnanimous of him. 

This is why genuine remorse discussion revolve about a timeline, tears, pleading, etc. Grid's wife hasn't delivered these things. She has been sullen throughout a half-hearted decision to stay for the time being, given the logistics of setting up a new household.

Retrouvaille wins pretty high praise:



> It was amazing to sit in the conference room, look around, and see how many couples are also in trouble wit their marriage. This program isn't a one all solution. It's a toolkit to bring home and work on over the follow-up sessions. It does bring you hope however. The priest was there to help moderate and give a Christian tie into marriage. He also provided daily mass to those interested as well as confession. *My wife was terrified of confessing her sins.* She found the strength this weekend to confess of all her sins from early days up through the affairs. I'm here to tell you, she came out of there a different woman.
> 
> I was able to rid my soul of my desire for revenge, and to offer that up to God to take the burden off of me. All I can say is if you have lost your desire to stay married, at least give this one weekend a shot before you call it quits. One couple in the group had filed for divorce that very week. By Sunday afternoon, I see they were once again holding hands and smiling at each other. Where it goes from here, who knows. I know that right now, a lot of my fears and concerns have been if not removed, at least drastically calmed


----------



## Chaparral

You see the result of following bad advice. You now expect divorce.

Read the books and try a new tack. You have nothing to gain trying to talk your way out of this because the way you talk to your wife is your biggest problem. She can't listen. You were, I assume unintentionally, belittleing and demeaning her in your updates. Frankly, I was shocked you wrote what you did knowing she was reading this. You're not going to get her back like that. But we told you she wouldn't change while she is still working with him. She recognizes your weakness as inferiority.


----------



## jld

gridcom said:


> I dont think she is trying to hurt me intentionally. The waffling and the talking out of both sides of her mouth hurts, but I think she is just conflicted/confused and traumatized in her own way


Exactly correct, grid.

Are you two still going to MC? That should help. I think you said you are in IC, too, and it is increasing your self-awareness. IC could help your wife clarify the path forward, as well. I hope she is also going.

For sure, she is not trying to hurt you. She feels bad about the affair, but has her own hurts from the marriage, too. She is trying to be honest with herself, and with you, about that.

Grid, I know it is hard, but I really think reconciliation needs to be heavily on you at this point. Your pain at her affair is certainly understandable. No one wants to be cheated on. 

To start reconciliation now, before Retrouvaille, you have to try to put aside your own hurt and look at hers. You are not confused. You are not in withdrawal from an affair. You are in a much more logical, rational place.

If you won't do it for her, or yourself, grid, please do it for your kids. Please set your hurt aside and seek to feel her pain, too. Showing empathy could move things along much faster. 

I know it is hard to do that when you feel unjustly treated yourself. It takes great love and maturity, which is surely hard to summon under the circumstances.

My sense of this is that your love for her might not be strong enough right now to pick her up and carry her for a while. It would make it so much easier if you could. If she felt love and caring from you, I think she would begin to heal. And some love and caring would start to flow back to you.

The long game, grid. I urge you to think of the long game. Divorce with children, when it could be avoided, is a selfish act.


----------



## Chaparral

First off she's not in withdrawal from an affair. Secondly, you tell him to be strong but all your advice makes him weak and needy. Even his abusive tongue bleeds weakness. We tell him to grow up and be a man. You tell him to grovel.

Otoh, unintended consequences are not always the worse thing that can happen. Being rid of a cheating spouse can't be the worse thing in the world.


----------



## happyman64

Grid

I'll give you my two cents.

Neither of you are in control of your marriage. R or D.

Your wife is talking out of both sides of her mouth and taking advice from 2nd hand friend.

Not good.

Retro is a good idea but only if your wife is out of the fog (she isn't) and you have to realize that. I think you do.

Your wife has filed. She is telling you what she wants right now. You do realize all her choices so far have not been great. Not happy. EA. PA. Filed.

See the pattern.....

Change the pattern Grid. Focus on you. Focus on your kids. Heal. Work on your personal issues.

Go to Retro.

But most of all observe your wife. Watch her actions. Not her words.

After retro decide just who you really want in your life and who deserves to have you in "your" life.

There is absolutely no rush. The only clock ticking is her lawyers.

The way I look at it time is on your side.

Gotta head to the office. Coincidentally it is in Westchester. Damn TZ Bridge. 

HM


----------



## turnera

gridcom said:


> I don't "expect" to reconcile. I expect to get divorced. I "hope" to reconcile. My kids would want us, two pendulums swinging opposite of each other, to align for just a minute and see if we can make it work for THEM.
> 
> You don't stay together and unhappliy married for the kids, but you DO try your best to save your marriage and make it legit and real for the kids.
> 
> That said, I expect divorce.


grid, I really am on your side. I just can't figure out your methodology. It's like two ships floundering around in the fog, one with NO purpose, and the other saying 'yes, but we're going to find the dock. Eveeeeeentuallllllyyyyyy...'

Maybe it's there, your plan. Your steps. Your discussions, your expectations, your explanations to her of what a R looks like, your discussion of her being closed off and not willing to ever look at herself and how detrimental that is to a marriage...

Is it? There? Because if it isn't, just staying in the same house is NOT a reconciliation; it's an arrangement for convenience, and BOTH of you deserve more than that.

And if it isn't, I'm having trouble understanding your logic, unless it's just to keep her under any circumstance she's willing to give you. You SAY you're heading for divorce, yet...nothing is happening. Are you just trying to wait for her fog to clear so she slaps her forehead and says 'what have I done?'?

I think if you would explain more about that, we wouldn't have 50-odd pages of theoreticals and wouldn't be wasting your bandwidth.


----------



## Chaparral

Its called limbo for a reason.


----------



## turnera

happyman64 said:


> Grid
> Retro is a good idea but only if your wife is out of the fog (she isn't) and you have to realize that. I think you do.


Psychologically speaking, something like Retrouvaille has the best chance of waking her up - being immersed in a situation with a bunch of other 'sinners' who are willing to be honest and aren't getting punished for it. You get swept along in the moment, you feel part of a group, you feel good, you feel hopeful. (It's why so may people join cults.) And grid can apologize for his past transgressions to his heart's content.

So, if anything can get Mrs. Grid to wake up and start acting like an ethical person again who owns her responsibilities, it's that weekend. So maybe we should just hold off on any more speculation until after that?


----------



## TeddieG

gridcom said:


> Don't disagree at all. Doesn't mean I have to "make" her do it on my schedule. Why the rush?
> 
> Again, not at all denying that certain things have to happen, and I legitimately mean HAVE to, but this is not a race.


No it isn't; reconciliation OR recovery after divorce and final split is a long slow slog, but reconciliation is hard work and requires a commitment, and any time it gets tough, she has her OM to run to. That's been the issue in my marriage. H would attempt to get better, address his physical issues, stare surgery in the face (for prostate cancer), face it again for an aneurysm (and convinced he nearly died on the table) and it would scare him, and he would contact OW for the high again. His OW lives twenty minutes up the street. Your w only has to go to work to find him, and probably not just there. 

But yesterday as I was preparing to leave the office, I realized that it is very possible that you have worked on yourself, made changes, and have the intent of demonstrating this during the divorce. Your silence suggested you working on what might be, by TAM standards, an unorthodox way of gaining your self respect back but also keep the option open for reconciliation. You're a smart and resourceful guy. It also occurred to me that you could find ways to handle this that would establish some boundaries and be strong enough to act on them, and you could demonstrate your self-respect to your wife, to the point that you would not accept her cake-eating. ReGroup's wife fell for him all over again because of the way he set boundaries and didn't let her push his buttons and didn't fall into her trap of controlling him to cake eat and have both him and OW. You may be able to pull this off but even you now seem to know and accept that it depends on the degree to which your wife is committed to it, and you COULD reconcile IF your wife comes around and is all in for the long haul. 

The reality of my experience has been that even IF your wife were no longer with OM, if she wanted to find him she would. So while I am concerned she still has easy access to him, she would have it anyway if she wanted it. 

The trick is, if you want reconciliation above all, your boundaries and your strength, in the name of compromise, could start to slip and the whole thing could fall apart. Just being back together with the (this) OM out of the picture isn't the same as reconciliation. The definition of reconciliation is where both sides go to the other and share the hurt and the pain and resolve the resentments, and the one doing the injuring takes responsibility and is accountable for his/her share. BOTH. Maybe Retrouvaille is a start in this direction. 

The bottom line is, you haven't had that moment with her yet that turns off the love in your eyes (or makes the lightbulb go off that she really IS reconciling with you), and the path to that is different for different people. For me, the love light turned off. It took my h texting his OW in response to hers, and spending over an hour on the phone with her later, on the back porch of my brother's house the day we buried my mother. Peter Pan doesn't do mortality well, and his band aid is the OW. And that day, I realized the degree to which his empathy chip for me had been completely erased. And TeddieG's last ounce of patience evaporated that day, despite years of compassion for a lost and confused and depressed soul. 

So no matter what folks here try to tell you, until you have that moment when you see the light, that she's either all in or all out, or you're all out, and it pierces you to the core and you know it's done, you won't be done. But if the day comes when you realize you've been played, the advice all the folks here gave you about getting back to yourself and detaching and rebuilding yourself still holds. Don't lose sight of yourself and how far you've come and what you've learned about yourself and how to survive. And if instead the day comes that you have that A HA moment that she's really in, the work doesn't stop then either.


----------



## TeddieG

3Xnocharm said:


> Omg, FINALLY!! An honest voice of reason and common sense! Jld's post on this is one of the worst and most ridiculous things I've ever read on here, I am floored that anybody has been listening to her throughout this whole thread!


I generally DON'T read jld's and don't listen; she's on my ignore list, but she pops up in quotes, and this one was one for the record books, I agree. She could coach cheating women on how to continue to gaslight their husbands for months, even years.


----------



## LongWalk

HappyMan is reliable.

I don't know what he meant by "2nd hand friend" – is OM?

Both jld, who know how women feel, and HappyMan say that your wife is not out of the fog. This is true. Still, the good feelings that the affair gave her are not blocking out the pain and confusion. Confusion because her life is a fvcking mess and pain because she cannot enjoy the physical and emotional pleasure that she had before Dday. Your pain causes her guilt but not empathy. Your love irritates because it has ruined the affair. Instead of remorse, she is stirring round a mixture regret, blame and self pity. In this sense jld is right that you need to hang on to loving her and forgiving her because she has very little to offer. You got one pity fvck. And when is she going to offer something genuine to please you? And here I don't mean sex. When is she going to say that you are the father of her children. That these two girls are good and beautiful and for them you get a warm hug, even if divorce is still the path you must go.

When my marriage was collapsing my wife said with dripping venom that I was a sh*tty father. She said it to hurt me because I was st*tty husband. A moment later she said was sorry and offered me a bj. I was up for that. But I was too dumb to fix myself and save my marriage. It takes to time understand. When people have poor coping skills, they avoid making healthy choices. They believe that failure is their due. Your wife has filed for divorce because she believes that things might get better but if they don't she deserved it anyway. Losing becomes winning. She punishes herself and your daughters because she deserves it. Insane, right?

But how else can you explain her trip to the wedding with an appliance bought on credit as her marriage was collapsing. She was celebrating another couple's commitment to a lifetime of not banging other people so that they kids would have peaceful home. That weekend was an escape. She was not ready for a weekend concert with you then. Retrouvaille is even a challenge. Ironic that this upcoming critical night sleeping in the church and looking at the faces of other people in pain will not cost much more than the blender.

I think that jld's tactics are wrong. BP developed ace tactics – he saved his marriage the only way he could – by doing his half. You can only do your half. You have given your wife a grace period to get to Retrouvaille. She ought to be grateful. Imagine if your work had connected you with some cute, attractive younger woman who for whatever reason decided you belonged in her bed. And suppose your wife discovered that not only had cute OW succeeded, she continued to patiently cast her lure out to get you back, would your wife accept you going to the office to see her everyday? If you were cheating and had even filed for divorce, would your wife be cool with that? 

If your wife is serious about Retrouvaille, she ought to seriously seek other employment. I am afraid that if your wife simply quits work, she may come unglued because she'll have too much idle time on her hands.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> Exactly correct, grid.
> 
> Are you two still going to MC? That should help. I think you said you are in IC, too, and it is increasing your self-awareness. IC could help your wife clarify the path forward, as well. I hope she is also going.
> 
> MC is a waste of money if they are still working together. Your WW is still knee deep in the fog. The IC is a good idea for both of you.
> 
> For sure, she is not trying to hurt you. She feels bad about the affair, but has her own hurts from the marriage, too. She is trying to be honest with herself, and with you, about that.
> 
> This is plain and simple mind reading, ESP whatever you want to call it. I do know she enjoyed watching you hurt when she told you about it because she admitted it.
> 
> Grid, I know it is hard, but I really think reconciliation needs to be heavily on you at this point. Your pain at her affair is certainly understandable. No one wants to be cheated on.
> 
> This is called rugsweeping and it never works
> 
> To start reconciliation now, before Retrouvaille, you have to try to put aside your own hurt and look at hers. You are not confused. You are not in withdrawal from an affair. You are in a much more logical, rational place.
> 
> Grid is still reeling a little from the shock of it all. It is Mrs. G who is operating like a tactician. Everything is going just like she wanted because she has been in complete control.
> 
> If you won't do it for her, or yourself, grid, please do it for your kids. Please set your hurt aside and seek to feel her pain, too. Showing empathy could move things along much faster.
> 
> Please do not bust out the do it for your kids line. Sometimes divorce is best for the kids. Sometimes it's not. JLD nor I know what's best for their kids.
> 
> I know it is hard to do that when you feel unjustly treated yourself. It takes great love and maturity, which is surely hard to summon under the circumstances.
> 
> It is weakness to stay with someone who clearly doesn't love you. Your fear of change and codependency are holding you back.
> 
> My sense of this is that your love for her might not be strong enough right now to pick her up and carry her for a while. It would make it so much easier if you could. If she felt love and caring from you, I think she would begin to heal. And some love and caring would start to flow back to you.
> 
> This advice will just push her further away. What woman wants a pathetic little man who grovels and pines away for their WS. I have seen it thread after thread were OM and WS make fun of the BS lame attempts.
> 
> The long game, grid. I urge you to think of the long game. Divorce with children, when it could be avoided, is a selfish act.
> 
> How in the world do you know this? Sometimes divorce is best even for the kids.



I tend to agree with the others that this thread is starting to get counterproductive. She is absolutely reading this thread, getting ammo and learning all the advice you are given. She is very clever in my opinion. She is telling you one thing keeping you in limbo while the divorce hammer is slowly getting dropped. She's getting coached. 

Happyman has twice laid out a great plan for you. I can't say it better myself. He like me is pro-marriage but it has to be the right circumstances. 

Has this affair been exposed to her work, your families, and your kids in an age appropriate manner? It needs to be. Please read the books I recommended a while back they are crucial to your understanding.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Grid - I sense that if Iet you 10 years ago and then again today I'd see two very different guys. I'm sorry but i don't think I'd like this guy much.

I read this whole thread, most of which is one poster with no infidelity experience mothering you and almost everyone else pulling their hair out telling you that your standing on the tracks about to get hit by a freight train. Seems a big waste of space considering you are missing from the discussion.

I've never had an affair enter my very long term marriage so I won't be so smug and condescending to tell you how to handle yours.

But... I will say a few things that are obvious to me as a guy.

You seem to have lost your core as a person. This seems to have killed off a big part of you. You seem to be hanging tightly to resolve as your last sense of self.

Resolve is good. But it doesn't contain any of the things that were "you". No joy, depth, curiosity, wonder, happiness, openness... No interests to share and be a parter around (with other guys or women). I don't know - I'm a guy for ch sake - I don't do emotions directly so can't describe this in a rich picturesque way - but I do know when someone is hollowed out.

Regardless of the flavor and size of sh*t sandwich you choose to gulp down going forward - no options exist that don't entail a lot misery when it comes to WW - you should make "all that was and should be Grid" a much bigger part of every day going forward.

Each morning look in the mirror and say "would I want to have a beer with this guy or would I pretend I didn't see him coming". If 80% of your actions, thoughts and plans move you toward the first guy EVERY DAY (you choose who you are anew every day btw) then you'll become that guy and you'll be a great father as a result.

I personally think you'll also see your worth a little clearer and say WTF have I been doing waiting for this... but I don't even care if jld's fantasy happens and WW magically falls in love with you and you ride off into the sunset. Doesn't matter - when you're whole again your answer will be obvious so it'll be moot.

And you'll be the guy you want to be in your next relationship anyway. Seriously dude - get Grid back as your #1 priority.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Btw I am NOT saying "work on your flaws" or "be more introspective" or any other crap like that. I'm saying "work on your awesomeness". Guys get pissed off; guys get angry; guys lash out when their disrespected. That's GOOD and NORMAL. Don't declaw yourself you're not a house pet you're a man. And women are supposed to cry and whine about how mean you are when you call them out for their shyt tests and for crossing boundaries. So don't think I was getting all feminazi on you I'm a man and my wife is mostly happy with that ?


----------



## LongWalk

Very true from the TruthHurts.

Let's be honest here OM is/was in the race with a Spotify play list. I liked the bands but come on it's a pretty shallow competitor you have. If he were real, he'd have paid for your wife's lawyer.

I would like to read that you are playing the drums and teaching your daughter, too, as well. You are smart and talented but you've become isolated. You are not alone. It's common enough among men to not build social networks or develop personally.


----------



## turnera

Great point. grid, you should be filling ALL your hours until Retro with doing things with your kids and having fun with your guy friends. Get out of the house. Remember what it feels like to be alive, go to football games, go watch football games at the pub with your pals, PLAY football. Then you'll remember what you're fighting for.


----------



## Chuck71

turnera said:


> Psychologically speaking, something like Retrouvaille has the best chance of waking her up - being immersed in a situation with a bunch of other 'sinners' who are willing to be honest and aren't getting punished for it. You get swept along in the moment, you feel part of a group, you feel good, you feel hopeful. (It's why so may people join cults.) And grid can apologize for his past transgressions to his heart's content.QUOTE]
> 
> Great synopsis ...... Did Marshall Applewhite or Jim Jones do Retro retreats?


----------



## manfromlamancha

jld said:


> Exactly correct, grid.
> 
> Are you two still going to MC? That should help. I think you said you are in IC, too, and it is increasing your self-awareness. IC could help your wife clarify the path forward, as well. I hope she is also going.
> 
> For sure, she is not trying to hurt you. She feels bad about the affair, but has her own hurts from the marriage, too. She is trying to be honest with herself, and with you, about that.
> 
> Grid, I know it is hard, but I really think reconciliation needs to be heavily on you at this point. Your pain at her affair is certainly understandable. No one wants to be cheated on.
> 
> To start reconciliation now, before Retrouvaille, you have to try to put aside your own hurt and look at hers. You are not confused. You are not in withdrawal from an affair. You are in a much more logical, rational place.
> 
> If you won't do it for her, or yourself, grid, please do it for your kids. Please set your hurt aside and seek to feel her pain, too. Showing empathy could move things along much faster.
> 
> I know it is hard to do that when you feel unjustly treated yourself. It takes great love and maturity, which is surely hard to summon under the circumstances.
> 
> My sense of this is that your love for her might not be strong enough right now to pick her up and carry her for a while. It would make it so much easier if you could. If she felt love and caring from you, I think she would begin to heal. And some love and caring would start to flow back to you.
> 
> The long game, grid. I urge you to think of the long game. Divorce with children, when it could be avoided, is a selfish act.


I actually completely agree with this fantastic post from JLD - but Mrs. Grid needs to meet him at least 1/3 of the way (not even 1/2 way).

Grid I do think that you need to be the strong one here as JLD says but your wife needs to start making some sensible decisions too.

I think in a previous post JLD lashed out at some of us nay sayers and didn't (couldn't) really mean it when she advised Mrs Grid to go after alimony.

Grid you do have a balanced view of the situation and a combination of JLD's "be the strong one in the relationship and empathise with your wife" and our "yes but let her wake up and smell the roses first" you can take sensible steps going forward.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

jld said:


> Exactly correct, grid.
> 
> Are you two still going to MC? That should help. I think you said you are in IC, too, and it is increasing your self-awareness. IC could help your wife clarify the path forward, as well. I hope she is also going.
> 
> For sure, she is not trying to hurt you. She feels bad about the affair, but has her own hurts from the marriage, too. She is trying to be honest with herself, and with you, about that.
> 
> Grid, I know it is hard, but I really think reconciliation needs to be heavily on you at this point. Your pain at her affair is certainly understandable. No one wants to be cheated on.
> 
> To start reconciliation now, before Retrouvaille, you have to try to put aside your own hurt and look at hers. You are not confused. You are not in withdrawal from an affair. You are in a much more logical, rational place.
> 
> If you won't do it for her, or yourself, grid, please do it for your kids. Please set your hurt aside and seek to feel her pain, too. Showing empathy could move things along much faster.
> 
> I know it is hard to do that when you feel unjustly treated yourself. It takes great love and maturity, which is surely hard to summon under the circumstances.
> 
> My sense of this is that your love for her might not be strong enough right now to pick her up and carry her for a while. It would make it so much easier if you could. If she felt love and caring from you, I think she would begin to heal. And some love and caring would start to flow back to you.
> 
> The long game, grid. I urge you to think of the long game. Divorce with children, when it could be avoided, is a selfish act.



You seriously need to STOP.


----------



## Chuck71

ButtPunch said:


> I tend to agree with the others that this thread is starting to get counterproductive. She is absolutely reading this thread, getting ammo and learning all the advice you are given. She is very clever in my opinion. She is telling you one thing keeping you in limbo while the divorce hammer is slowly getting dropped. She's getting coached.
> 
> Happyman has twice laid out a great plan for you. I can't say it better myself. He like me is pro-marriage but it has to be the right circumstances.
> 
> Has this affair been exposed to her work, your families, and your kids in an age appropriate manner? It needs to be. Please read the books I recommended a while back they are crucial to your understanding.


BP quote from inside the post says it all 

"It is weakness to stay with someone who clearly doesn't love you. Your fear of change and codependency are holding you back."

On my very DDay, WC told me I was a great provider. That I made sure her, stepson, and her mother (till she died) had everything they needed (not wanted). I asked her three times to work through this with me. Each time I did, she became more detached. The third time I asked her is when she started to not come home at night through the week.

FF to rabbit hole and climbing out. Now WC came home every night, wanted to talk.... just not about our M. Only about what she wanted to discuss. I would ignore her as a teen would their parents. After two weeks of this (kinda what you're getting now Grid), I went deep 180 / NC. Granted I had a place to go and I knew I was getting the house in the end. Every step I started pulling away, WC would reach.

I'm am almost certain WC had g/fs like JDL who would light more gas than British Petrol. Didn't matter.....once I started the path and looked into the light.... it was done.

Personally I hope Ear Wax is reading every post. I hope she is getting more ammo than a NRA revival. Doesn't matter..... Grid when you stand up, dust yourself off, get your head on straight..... you will be unstoppable. When ReGroup finally "got it" I told him "you can now dodge bullets." For the rest of his thread.... he did.

Maybe all you need Grid is a three day weekend with ThreeStrikes, BP, Conan, or Philly.

I would say me but a New Yorker would get a huge culture shock partying with mountain girls..... think huge .38 Special concert.


----------



## gridcom

LongWalk said:


> HappyMan is reliable.
> 
> I don't know what he meant by "2nd hand friend" – is OM?
> 
> Both jld, who know how women feel, and HappyMan say that your wife is not out of the fog. This is true. Still, the good feelings that the affair gave her are not blocking out the pain and confusion. Confusion because her life is a fvcking mess and pain because she cannot enjoy the physical and emotional pleasure that she had before Dday. Your pain causes her guilt but not empathy. Your love irritates because it has ruined the affair. Instead of remorse, she is stirring round a mixture regret, blame and self pity. In this sense jld is right that you need to hang on to loving her and forgiving her because she has very little to offer. You got one pity fvck. And when is she going to offer something genuine to please you? And here I don't mean sex. When is she going to say that you are the father of her children. That these two girls are good and beautiful and for them you get a warm hug, even if divorce is still the path you must go.
> 
> When my marriage was collapsing my wife said with dripping venom that I was a sh*tty father. She said it to hurt me because I was st*tty husband. A moment later she said was sorry and offered me a bj. I was up for that. But I was too dumb to fix myself and save my marriage. It takes to time understand. When people have poor coping skills, they avoid making healthy choices. They believe that failure is their due. Your wife has filed for divorce because she believes that things might get better but if they don't she deserved it anyway. Losing becomes winning. She punishes herself and your daughters because she deserves it. Insane, right?
> 
> But how else can you explain her trip to the wedding with an appliance bought on credit as her marriage was collapsing. She was celebrating another couple's commitment to a lifetime of not banging other people so that they kids would have peaceful home. That weekend was an escape. She was not ready for a weekend concert with you then. Retrouvaille is even a challenge. Ironic that this upcoming critical night sleeping in the church and looking at the faces of other people in pain will not cost much more than the blender.
> 
> I think that jld's tactics are wrong. BP developed ace tactics – he saved his marriage the only way he could – by doing his half. You can only do your half. You have given your wife a grace period to get to Retrouvaille. She ought to be grateful. Imagine if your work had connected you with some cute, attractive younger woman who for whatever reason decided you belonged in her bed. And suppose your wife discovered that not only had cute OW succeeded, she continued to patiently cast her lure out to get you back, would your wife accept you going to the office to see her everyday? If you were cheating and had even filed for divorce, would your wife be cool with that?
> 
> If your wife is serious about Retrouvaille, she ought to seriously seek other employment. I am afraid that if your wife simply quits work, she may come unglued because she'll have too much idle time on her hands.


Good stuff, Longwalk. I went to my IC today and we talked about debt and she was like "Well, your wife has to get a full time job either way. Regardless of you divorce or not, you have to get that debt down and now that bth kids are in school full time, she shouldn't wait. What is she waiting for?" 

And I asked my wife today straight up if she's done ANYTHING to prepare herself or our kids for divorced life, and she simply said "No"
In 14 weeks, she has sent out two resume's for jobs, both of which I got her the interviews.


----------



## bandit.45

gridcom said:


> Good stuff, Longwalk. I went to my IC today and we talked about debt and she was like "Well, your wife has to get a full time job either way. Regardless of you divorce or not, you have to get that debt down and now that bth kids are in school full time, she shouldn't wait. What is she waiting for?"
> 
> And I asked my wife today straight up if she's done ANYTHING to prepare herself or our kids for divorced life, and she simply said "No"
> In 14 weeks, she has sent out two resume's for jobs, both of which I got her the interviews.


She's counting on finding another man to support her. That is just the kind of worthless waste of human material she is.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

If you do it for the kids, make ONE HUNDRED PERCENT SURE you can fake it til they make it or truly be happy. Go to google scholar, research through peer reviewed studies and stay away from the oft relayed biased websites posted here on TAM. Not all of them are, but a large number of links are extremely biased with faulty stats and poor citations. Research for yourself and do it correctly. If you find the studies, not the biased ones, you'll see unhappy married parents cause more problems for their kids than ones who have gone through divorce with cordial parents.


----------



## gridcom

ButtPunch said:


> I tend to agree with the others that this thread is starting to get counterproductive. She is absolutely reading this thread, getting ammo and learning all the advice you are given. She is very clever in my opinion. She is telling you one thing keeping you in limbo while the divorce hammer is slowly getting dropped. She's getting coached.
> 
> Happyman has twice laid out a great plan for you. I can't say it better myself. He like me is pro-marriage but it has to be the right circumstances.
> 
> Has this affair been exposed to her work, your families, and your kids in an age appropriate manner? It needs to be. Please read the books I recommended a while back they are crucial to your understanding.


I think to say she is clever and cunning and knows exactly what she is doing is totally false. My mother today said she was "dead wood" meaning she is just dragging herself around completely physically drained. It's not an act. It's rather sad to see it.

On the other hand, to say that I am week is also not accurate. I have shown through the years to be tough and can make tough choices in hard times. This is my history. To sum me up as a "weakling" would be completely inaccurate.

Yes, all of our families, my oldest daughter, and most of her co-workers know about the affair


----------



## jld

You are not weak. You were able to hear my posts and not become reactive. To me, that proves you are not weak.


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> And I asked my wife today straight up if she's done ANYTHING to prepare herself or our kids for divorced life, and she simply said "No"
> In 14 weeks, she has sent out two resume's for jobs,* both of which I got her the interviews*.


You talk tough but your posts reek of weakness. They are so codependent and everyone sees it. This post reinforces my comments.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

jld said:


> You are not weak. You were able to hear my posts and not become reactive. To me, that proves you are not weak.


He is still living plus, fighting for his marriage and kids, THAT makes him not weak to me. This is whether I agree with his choices or not. Supporting any side in this debate, reactionary, reactive, for or against or not proves nothing, but a person's own arrogance about what they posted if it is used as anything other than advice.


----------



## jld

Emotionally strong men can examine their consciences. Emotionally strong men can admit their faults. Emotionally strong men take responsibility for their marriages.

There is undoubtedly a scale of male emotional strength, and grid is not at the bottom of it.


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> I think to say she is clever and cunning and knows exactly what she is doing is totally false. My mother today said she was "dead wood" meaning she is just dragging herself around completely physically drained. It's not an act. It's rather sad to see it.
> 
> She's possibly mourning the loss of the OM
> 
> On the other hand, to say that I am week is also not accurate. I have shown through the years to be tough and can make tough choices in hard times. This is my history. To sum me up as a "weakling" would be completely inaccurate.
> 
> I am not calling you a weakling. I am saying your response in this situation has been weak and thus making you more unattractive to your wife. Your actions are that of a codependent fixer. This can totally be fixed. I gave you a book to read on this but alas you haven't.
> 
> Yes, all of our families, my oldest daughter, and most of her co-workers know about the affair


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Same thing can be said of divorcing men and if grid chose divorce he would not be "at the bottom of it."


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> Emotionally strong men can examine their consciences. Emotionally strong men can admit their faults. Emotionally strong men take responsibility for their marriages.
> 
> There is undoubtedly a scale of male emotional strength, and grid is not at the bottom of it.


1.Emotionally strong men do not tolerate a wife who cheats on them and rubs his face in it.


----------



## TeddieG

From jld: " You are not weak. You were able to hear my posts and not become reactive. To me, that proves you are not weak."

Translation: you were able to let ME and me alone tell you what to do. So I'm going to reward you and tell you you're not weak.


----------



## jld

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Same thing can be said of divorcing men and if grid chose divorce he would not be "at the bottom of it."


If I thought divorce were in their family's best interests, I might agree. I don't.

Grid, how are you nurturing your wife these days? It is not going to be good for anyone for her to feel deflated and hopeless.


----------



## jld

Emotionally strong men can look past a wife's words and into her heart. Gaining access to her heart, through earning her trust, gives a man lots of influence.


----------



## gridcom

ButtPunch said:


> You talk tough but your posts reek of weakness. They are so codependent and everyone sees it. This post reinforces my comments.


I should clarify, not that it matters, I got her the interviews because it was through contacts I have through my line of work.


----------



## ButtPunch

Wasn't it Zillard (another codependent fixer) who said

"Life is hard when you have to carry your bag of rocks and also your wifes."


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> I should clarify, not that it matters, I got her the interviews because it was through contacts I have through my line of work.


It doesn't.

I am not calling you a weak person. Codependents will carry a relationship on their back all while ignoring their own needs. Can't be weak and do that. However, is it the right thing to do?


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> If I thought divorce were in their family's best interests, I might agree. I don't.
> 
> Grid, how are you nurturing your wife these days? It is not going to be good for anyone for her to feel deflated and hopeless.


Well I'm glad your crystal ball is back working again.


----------



## gridcom

jld said:


> If I thought divorce were in their family's best interests, I might agree. I don't.
> 
> Grid, how are you nurturing your wife these days? It is not going to be good for anyone for her to feel deflated and hopeless.


I am trying to give her space but I am not kissing her ass. When she says something that sounds wacky to me, I let her know. I am not going to allow the waffling to go without calling her out on it. I feel it's important, regardless of how I control my anger and demonstrate kindness as a first response, to make sure that the waffling and blame shifting that is sometimes happening don't go un-responded to. 

Case in point, after I came back from IC today, I told my wife that regardless of divorce or not, she needs to get a full time job. 70k of debt and right now both kids at school full time, we need the money. She got mad at me for "telling" her she "has to" get a job. She would likely say I was harassing her when in my mind it's like "You just admitted you've done nothing to prepare for divorce. It's time to get more serious about finding a job. That's not harassing. That's just telling it like it is.

There's a difference


----------



## turnera

gridcom said:


> I should clarify, not that it matters, I got her the interviews because it was through contacts I have through my line of work.


And then what happened? She blew the interviews? Or were there dozens of candidates and she had no track record to compare? Just curious.


----------



## TeddieG

gridcom said:


> Case in point, after I came back from IC today, I told my wife that regardless of divorce or not, she needs to get a full time job. 70k of debt and right now both kids at school full time, we need the money. She got mad at me for "telling" her she "has to" get a job. * She would likely say I was harassing her when in my mind it's like "You just admitted you've done nothing to prepare for divorce. It's time to get more serious about finding a job. That's not harassing. That's just telling it like it is.*
> 
> There's a difference


Good job. Now, what I've put in bold would be a great thing to say to her. 

One of the most confusing and frustrating issues with my h was when he filed in 2008 and then immediately started dragging his heels when he started to see the consequences, like, how far HIS money would NOT go without my salary to help with expenses and leave him some blow money. This was especially important since the amount of money his OW THOUGHT he had pleased HER very much. 

But somebody can't play with your heart and file for divorce and then alternately take it seriously sometimes and not at others. If she thinks she's going to live on your alimony and child support, she may not be worried about her own income. 

But that's the thing about affair fog; they flop around and don't think ahead, and let the external circumstances take them where they do.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

jld said:


> If I thought divorce were in their family's best interests, I might agree. I don't.
> 
> Grid, how are you nurturing your wife these days? It is not going to be good for anyone for her to feel deflated and hopeless.


OH FVCK NO!! You don't NUTURE a cheating wife!! WTF is wrong with you woman?? SHE needs to be the one doing the heavy lifting and making restitution! And SHE has filed for divorce instead, which to me, tells EVERYONE here but you, evidently, that she doesn't want this marriage!


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

jld said:


> If I thought divorce were in their family's best interests, I might agree. I don't.
> .


 Honestly, I could care less if you agree or not. You said MEN so, my response is in general to men being emotionally strong whether they divorce or not. Then, like you, I used grid to make a point. I'm making sure he understand he isn't weak if he chooses to end it. It's called a counterpoint.


----------



## turnera

gridcom said:


> I told my wife that regardless of divorce or not, she needs to get a full time job. *70k of debt* and right now both kids at school full time, we need the money. She got mad at me for "telling" her she "has to" get a job.


I think this is a GREAT view into Mrs. Grid's mind. In HER world, she's a woman so she doesn't HAVE to provide for herself or anyone else. That's a man's job. So, aside from the fact that she's not bent over throwing up over $70K of debt like any sane person would be, and NOT taking any responsibility for that debt nor a solution for it, she instead turns this (with seemingly very little thought) into something GRID is doing wrong. Makes me wonder what ELSE (like anger, abuse, etc.) she has grown out of proportion to suit her agenda, which seems to be to have a man give give give.

No offense, but you just married an entitled woman. I've known a few in my time, and those marriages almost never turn out well because, well, it's 2015.


----------



## gridcom

turnera said:


> And then what happened? She blew the interviews? Or were there dozens of candidates and she had no track record to compare? Just curious.


One of the places has been kind of playing footsies with her about a job. The other one may have just been a favor to me


----------



## 3Xnocharm

jld said:


> If I thought divorce were in their family's best interests, I might agree. I don't.
> 
> Grid, how are you nurturing your wife these days? It is not going to be good for anyone for her to feel deflated and hopeless.


----------



## gridcom

The thing that makes jld's approach hard is like I said above, here's a woman who as admitted (just today) that she has done NOTHING to prepare for divorce and has also admitted that she needs to get a full time job. But, when you ask her "what are you waiting for? 14 weeks and no resumes sent seems like your not trying hard enough" 

She takes that as insulting and demanding and bossy and I simply don't see it that way


----------



## Sammy64

3xnocharm said:


> oh fvck no!! You don't nuture a cheating wife!! Wtf is wrong with you woman?? She needs to be the one doing the heavy lifting and making restitution! And she has filed for divorce instead, which to me, tells everyone here but you, evidently, that she doesn't want this marriage!



qft !!!!!


----------



## MEM2020

Grid,

Does your state use 'imputed' income in calculating support?
Most states do. 






gridcom said:


> The thing that makes jld's approach hard is like I said above, here's a woman who as admitted (just today) that she has done NOTHING to prepare for divorce and has also admitted that she needs to get a full time job. But, when you ask her "what are you waiting for? 14 weeks and no resumes sent seems like your not trying hard enough"
> 
> She takes that as insulting and demanding and bossy and I simply don't see it that way


----------



## Chuck71

3Xnocharm said:


> OH FVCK NO!! You don't NUTURE a cheating wife!! WTF is wrong with you woman?? SHE needs to be the one doing the heavy lifting and making restitution! And SHE has filed for divorce instead, which to me, tells EVERYONE here but you, evidently, that she doesn't want this marriage!


:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Couldn't make this up if I were paid to.

3x \_/ ~~~~ here is a shot..... you need it after reading JLD's post.

3x []~~~~~ here is a orange ICBWTFIJR pill


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

gridcom said:


> The thing that makes jld's approach hard is like I said above, here's a woman who as admitted (just today) that she has done NOTHING to prepare for divorce and has also admitted that she needs to get a full time job. But, when you ask her "what are you waiting for? 14 weeks and no resumes sent seems like your not trying hard enough"
> 
> She takes that as insulting and demanding and bossy and I simply don't see it that way


You are learning, slowly, what many have told you. She needs to put in the same effort to save the marriage as you. It doesn't mean it will always be 50/50. There will be days where you do 90/10, but seeing her constantly doing a third or less goes against your logical brain. You are getting frustrated because, if you are as strong as you claim, you know youcan't keep eating sh!% sandwiches for her or your kids.

This is why people pointed out jld hasn't dealt with infidelity. She does not understand how these emotions feel or how to deal with them when they crop up. Jld is giving you a topical antiseptic when the infection has already taken root.


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> The thing that makes jld's approach hard is like I said above, here's a woman who as admitted (just today) that she has done NOTHING to prepare for divorce and has also admitted that she needs to get a full time job. But, when you ask her "what are you waiting for? 14 weeks and no resumes sent seems like your not trying hard enough"
> 
> She takes that as insulting and demanding and bossy and I simply don't see it that way


Like Turnera said she's entitled. Good luck convincing her of anything. She won't understand until it hits her in the face. Then she will either come back to you or find another codependent with money to rescue her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

gridcom said:


> The thing that makes jld's approach hard is like I said above, here's a woman who as admitted (just today) that she has done NOTHING to prepare for divorce and has also admitted that she needs to get a full time job. But, when you ask her "what are you waiting for? 14 weeks and no resumes sent seems like your not trying hard enough"
> 
> She takes that as insulting and demanding and bossy and I simply don't see it that way


She definitely needs a full-time job, ideally with benefits. That will be the reality if this proceeds to divorce. 

Grid, how you say something can affect things, too. Presenting the economic facts calmly could help.

Have you made a plan for tackling the debt?


----------



## jld

And remember, you can listen to her feelings without agreeing. Just listening is often what women want.

Totally agree there can be no *****footing around financial facts. That debt is an albatross around your family's neck.


----------



## Chuck71

jld said:


> Emotionally strong men can examine their consciences. Emotionally strong men can admit their faults. Emotionally strong men take responsibility for their marriages.
> 
> There is undoubtedly a scale of male emotional strength, and grid is not at the bottom of it.


:bsflag::bsflag::bsflag:


----------



## jld

Turnera, you have a big debt in your marriage too, right? Like 150k?

I think you said once that that is why you are not divorcing right now. Not sure if that is still the case.

Do you have a plan for paying it down that you could share with grid, that might help him?


----------



## Chuck71

gridcom said:


> I am trying to give her space but I am not kissing her ass. When she says something that sounds wacky to me, I let her know. I am not going to allow the waffling to go without calling her out on it. I feel it's important, regardless of how I control my anger and demonstrate kindness as a first response, to make sure that the waffling and blame shifting that is sometimes happening don't go un-responded to.
> 
> Case in point, after I came back from IC today, I told my wife that regardless of divorce or not, she needs to get a full time job. 70k of debt and right now both kids at school full time, we need the money. She got mad at me for "telling" her she "has to" get a job. She would likely say I was harassing her when in my mind it's like "You just admitted you've done nothing to prepare for divorce. It's time to get more serious about finding a job. That's not harassing. That's just telling it like it is.
> 
> There's a difference


Is all of the 70k in your name or both? If it is both, how much in each area?


----------



## jld

Grid, something else about the blame shifting/waffling. I totally agree that you do not want to validate falsehood. But if she hears constant, "Bad girl! Bad girl!" from you, she is going to behave . . . like the defeated, hopeless creature moping around the house.

She needs hope, grid. She needs a path towards redemption. A little kindness and nurturing could help her start thinking along the lines of making things up to you. If she gets what feels to her like constant beating and rejection of her feelings, how is she ever going to get up the confidence to nurture _you_?


----------



## turnera

gridcom said:


> The thing that makes jld's approach hard is like I said above, here's a woman who as admitted (just today) that she has done NOTHING to prepare for divorce and has also admitted that she needs to get a full time job. But, when you ask her "what are you waiting for? 14 weeks and no resumes sent seems like your not trying hard enough"
> 
> She takes that as insulting and demanding and bossy and I simply don't see it that way


grid, ask your IC about this. He/she will likely tell you that there is a communication dysfunction between the two of you. A husband is allowed to expect something from his wife, just as she is allowed to expect something from him. It's a marriage; it's all about compromises and agreements and working as a team. If one of the two refuses to participate in that collaboration by just _ignoring _what the other person wants/needs or else blameshifting the issue back onto the one needing something (you're being mean, you are just a selfish person, you're not the boss of me), then it behooves the latter person to FURTHER communicate and explain that this method isn't working. Not just sit there and say nothing. Saying nothing is what's gotten you two in this mess in the first place. 

Get your IC to help you learn to communicate with her - whether she's staying or not - so that this issue DOES get addressed. There are ways to have this conversation, set expectations, derive results, even IF your wife's sitting there with her fingers in her ears going lalalalalalala.


----------



## Chuck71

ButtPunch said:


> Like Turnera said she's entitled. Good luck convincing her of anything. She won't understand until it hits her in the face. Then she will either come back to you or find another codependent with money to rescue her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


ReGroup's STBXW played the blame shifting, gas lighting, rewriting of history... and was angry... oh so angry.

Once Group reacted accordingly.... Queen Lizard wanted him to "fight for her more"

SAVE ME, HELP ME, WTF is my Mr. Fixer

She was used to going to the soda machine and getting what she wanted, time and time again.

After Group's awakening.... QL did not get the "Coke" or "Diet Coke" she wanted....

She finally punched Reality Cola....... clink


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> Grid, something else about the blame shifting/waffling. I totally agree that you do not want to validate falsehood. But if she hears constant, "Bad girl! Bad girl!" from you, she is going to behave . . . like the defeated, hopeless creature moping around the house.
> 
> She needs hope, grid. She needs a path towards redemption. A little kindness and nurturing could help her start thinking along the lines of making things up to you. If she gets what feels to her like constant beating and rejection of her feelings, how is she ever going to get up the confidence to nurture _you_?


You have been listening to this for three months and all it has gotten you is divorce papers. Over three months and you have gotten nowhere. So tell me is it gonna change in the next three months.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

jld said:


> "Bad girl! Bad girl!"


Grid, saying someone needs to do something is not akin to saying "bad girl, bad girl." It is all about how it is presented. Why? Her defeated attitude, sniping, anger and moping around the house may have nothing to do with your alleged badgering. It is just as likely she is feeling this way because she can't be with her lover.

.


----------



## turnera

jld said:


> Turnera, you have a big debt in your marriage too, right? Like 150k?
> 
> I think you said once that that is why you are not divorcing right now. Not sure if that is still the case.
> 
> Do you have a plan for paying it down that you could share with grid, that might help him?


Yeah, have a big talk about NOT SPENDING MONEY, sell stuff, cut up cards and remove access to funds, and find ways to earn more. The only thing I can't get my H to do is cut up his credit cards. I have, however, stopped giving him the NEW cards when they come in the mail.

grid, IIWY, the first thing I would do is stop giving her access to any money. Other than groceries (since you have kids), housing and utilities, stop giving her access to any of your money. You could even buy prepaid gift cards to the grocery store. For HER benefit, so she wakes up and sees what life without your money looks like.


----------



## turnera

jld said:


> Grid, something else about the blame shifting/waffling. I totally agree that you do not want to validate falsehood. But if she hears constant, "Bad girl! Bad girl!" from you, she is going to behave . . . like the defeated, hopeless creature moping around the house.
> 
> She needs hope, grid. She needs a path towards redemption. A little kindness and nurturing could help her start thinking along the lines of making things up to you. If she gets what feels to her like constant beating and rejection of her feelings, how is she ever going to get up the confidence to nurture _you_?


Bullshyte. He can EASILY discuss finances with her like an adult simply by showing her the spreadsheets showing where the money is going, explaining what he is now being forced to get rid of (kids' sports, entertainment, cable tv, new clothes) and how that will address their shortfall. No 'bad girl' in that message at all. Simply two adults discussing finances like every OTHER marriage in America (except yours, probably, since Dug probably handles everything).


----------



## Vulcan2013

Grid, as a former WH (really serious EA), I think jld's advice is really good, after your W is out of the affair, and is remorseful. I think you should detach, and get a life, and hold on until Retro. I'm glad you're going, and I hope it shakes her out of the fog. 

You see a lot about consequeces for waywards here, and there's a good reason for it. My W tried to nice me back, loving me unconditionally. It was painful to see, but it also made her less attractive to me. Why? Because someone in an affair is an entitled narcisissit almost all of the time. Your trying to nuture her will just confirm that she's awesome, and deserves more happiness. It also confirms your low worth. 

Imposing consequenses is a way to show strength and resolve, especially if you can do it from a non-angry, unemotional state.

*I am very suspicious that she is using MC to keep you "nice" and under control while she works the D to her advantage.*

I suggest you:
Tell her you want to R, then tell her your conditions for that (NC, change job, transparency, etc.) 

If you haven't, apologize *one time* for your deficiencies in the marraige. Do not accept any responsibility for her A, however. Google "the art of the apology" to make sure you can do a sincere apology. Note: anything she's opened up about this in the last year is likely very magnified to justify her A and make it your fault.

Work to keep the D moving forward by responding timely. Make sure you include her promises, such as no alimony, in your draft responses. *I think the reason she is not looking for a job is that she is being encouraged to request alimony, and NY is a man-unfriendly state with regards to D. Also, she gets to see her OM every day.* If she asks about this, tell her you're following her lead. She's currently blown up the marriage and seeking D, and you are responding (and you would probably respond if she was seeking R.

Take care of yourself. Read some of the books recommended. There's a reason they were recommended. Hit the gym; become a more awesome version of yourself. 

Accept that right now, plan D and plan R look the same at these early stages. Don't be passive.

When I was in the "I don't know what I want" stage, it was because I was addicted to the feel-good of the OW's attention, and full of lust. But I was uncertain it would work out, and was hesitant to pull the plug on my M. I was also narcissistic and entitled, believing my W would wait it out. She did, but putting her through all that is the most monsterous thing I've ever done. 

MC does not work when a spouse is in an affair. Bad MC can make it worse. My W was advised to be nicer to me, while I flew across the country to work with the OW. The toll that took on her was horrific. Don't set yourself up for that.

JLD's advice is great for healing a marriage. She has no experience of infidelity, however. I know you want to jump to R and healing, but you can't from where she is; the results will be very harmful to you.


----------



## turnera

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Grid, saying someone needs to do something is not akin to saying "bad girl, bad girl." It is all about how it is presented. Why? Her defeated attitude, sniping, anger and moping around the house may have nothing to do with your alleged badgering. It is just as likely she is feeling this way because she can't be with her lover.
> 
> .


Or she's mad because there's no more money or that her spending has become an issue?


----------



## jld

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Grid, saying someone needs to do something is not akin to saying "bad girl, bad girl." *It is all about how it is presented. *Why? Her defeated attitude, sniping, anger and moping around the house may have nothing to do with your alleged badgering. It is just as likely she is feeling this way because she can't be with her lover.


Yes, this is what I just said. 

Present the facts dispassionately. You can listen to her feelings without agreeing with them.

I am sure she is overwhelmed right now, grid. But patience and persistence in presenting facts is going to give way to clarity. It has to.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

turnera said:


> Or she's mad because there's no more money or that her spending has become an issue?


Her lollygagging and give me space comments makes me feel, money leverage hasn't been applied to a point she understands.


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> Bullshyte. He can EASILY discuss finances with her like an adult simply by showing her the spreadsheets showing where the money is going, explaining what he is now being forced to get rid of (kids' sports, entertainment, cable tv, new clothes) and how that will address their shortfall. No 'bad girl' in that message at all. Simply two adults discussing finances like every OTHER marriage in America (except yours, probably, since Dug probably handles everything).


Yes, showing her the spreadsheets is good. 

But hearing her demeanor shows me he could communicate in a more effective manner.

Firmness, grid. The debt must be paid down. Firmness and persistence.

But firmness does not require harshness. Speak calmly and without anger. It will work to your benefit.


----------



## ButtPunch

Vulcan2013 said:


> Grid, as a former WH (really serious EA), I think jld's advice is really good, after your W is out of the affair, and is remorseful. I think you should detach, and get a life, and hold on until Retro. I'm glad you're going, and I hope it shakes her out of the fog.
> 
> You see a lot about consequeces for waywards here, and there's a good reason for it. My W tried to nice me back, loving me unconditionally. It was painful to see, but it also made her less attractive to me. Why? Because someone in an affair is an entitled narcisissit almost all of the time. Your trying to nuture her will just confirm that she's awesome, and deserves more happiness. It also confirms your low worth.
> 
> Imposing consequenses is a way to show strength and resolve, especially if you can do it from a non-angry, unemotional state.
> 
> *I am very suspicious that she is using MC to keep you "nice" and under control while she works the D to her advantage.*
> 
> I suggest you:
> Tell her you want to R, then tell her your conditions for that (NC, change job, transparency, etc.)
> 
> If you haven't, apologize *one time* for your deficiencies in the marraige. Do not accept any responsibility for her A, however. Google "the art of the apology" to make sure you can do a sincere apology. Note: anything she's opened up about this in the last year is likely very magnified to justify her A and make it your fault.
> 
> Work to keep the D moving forward by responding timely. Make sure you include her promises, such as no alimony, in your draft responses. *I think the reason she is not looking for a job is that she is being encouraged to request alimony, and NY is a man-unfriendly state with regards to D. Also, she gets to see her OM every day.* If she asks about this, tell her you're following her lead. She's currently blown up the marriage and seeking D, and you are responding (and you would probably respond if she was seeking R.
> 
> Take care of yourself. Read some of the books recommended. There's a reason they were recommended. Hit the gym; become a more awesome version of yourself.
> 
> Accept that right now, plan D and plan R look the same at these early stages. Don't be passive.
> 
> When I was in the "I don't know what I want" stage, it was because I was addicted to the feel-good of the OW's attention, and full of lust. But I was uncertain it would work out, and was hesitant to pull the plug on my M. I was also narcissistic and entitled, believing my W would wait it out. She did, but putting her through all that is the most monsterous thing I've ever done.
> 
> MC does not work when a spouse is in an affair. Bad MC can make it worse. My W was advised to be nicer to me, while I flew across the country to work with the OW. The toll that took on her was horrific. Don't set yourself up for that.
> 
> JLD's advice is great for healing a marriage. She has no experience of infidelity, however. I know you want to jump to R and healing, but you can't from where she is; the results will be very harmful to you.


I just wanted you to read this twice.


----------



## jld

Vulcan, I don't think grid's problem is not being harsh enough. I think the way he treated her for years made her vulnerable to that affair.

Men and women are not the same. I don't give the exact same advice to them for that reason.

He needs to be firm and clear on finances. He still needs to try to nurture her in other ways, or at least not beat down on her.

We want a reconciliation here, not imprisonment.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

jld said:


> Yes, this is what I just said.
> 
> Present the facts dispassionately. You can listen to her feelings without agreeing with them.


 No, you said it in an earlier. Your next post was, once again, telling him he can't hold her feet to the fire because he is calling her a bad girl. I am disagreeing with the intent of your "bad girl" post.




> I am sure she is overwhelmed to.


So is he and limbo is not his friend.


----------



## Evinrude58

jld said:


> Emotionally strong men can look past a wife's words and into her heart. Gaining access to her heart, through earning her trust, gives a man lots of influence.


Her heart is completely closed to him. This is why your advice is just allowing him to dig a deeper hole for himself.
She has:
cheated
blamed him
continued to have contact with OM
Filed for divorce
Had sex with him and told him it was purely physical-- not to read into it
Wanted "space"
TOLD HIM that she DOES NOT LOVE HIM

Just what does this woman have to do in order for you to see that she has no love for him and therefore your advice is invalid?


----------



## jld

Of course he can hold her feet to the fire, just like he should be holding his own. Transparency.

But there can be transparency along with gentleness. He can listen without agreeing. Often people just want their feelings heard.

A financial plan is very important. It is a big part of stabilizing a family.


----------



## jld

If she divorces him and does not look back, I will know it is over, evinrude.

We are not there yet, and I am trying to prevent our getting there.


----------



## Evinrude58

jld said:


> She definitely needs a full-time job, ideally with benefits. That will be the reality if this proceeds to divorce.
> 
> Grid, how you say something can affect things, too. Presenting the economic facts calmly could help.
> 
> Have you made a plan for tackling the debt?


And, have you made a plan for tackling the debt (obviously your wife has no intention of paying squat), and paying the alimony that JLD is advising your wife to demand? 
Yes, JLD, this is an excellent question you postulated.


----------



## gridcom

jld said:


> Grid, something else about the blame shifting/waffling. I totally agree that you do not want to validate falsehood. But if she hears constant, "Bad girl! Bad girl!" from you, she is going to behave . . . like the defeated, hopeless creature moping around the house.
> 
> She needs hope, grid. She needs a path towards redemption. A little kindness and nurturing could help her start thinking along the lines of making things up to you. If she gets what feels to her like constant beating and rejection of her feelings, how is she ever going to get up the confidence to nurture _you_?


I get that, but unless she is "mental", she knows better. When she says something silly that pierces the air, I cant let it fly without a response of "No, that's not the way I see it at all."

And another thing to add, I am not the only one in her life acting this way towards her. She is getting this from all directions except for her one friend who works for the lawyer

She says "These people tell me I am wrong and I need to fix my marriage, but they dont live with you" and my response is "I'm quite sure you are painting an unflattering picture of me to them to justify your actions, so it isnt like they have no idea"


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Evinrude58 said:


> Her heart is completely closed to him. This is why your advice is just allowing him to dig a deeper hole for himself.
> She has:
> cheated
> blamed him
> continued to have contact with OM
> Filed for divorce
> Had sex with him and told him it was purely physical-- not to read into it
> Wanted "space"
> TOLD HIM that she DOES NOT LOVE HIM
> 
> Just what does this woman have to do in order for you to see that she has no love for him and therefore your advice is invalid?


We are heading into derail territory. All I'll say is read her post history and notice how her advice skews dramatically according to gender.


----------



## Evinrude58

jld said:


> If she divorces him and does not look back, I will know it is over, evinrude.
> 
> We are not there yet, and I am trying to prevent our getting there.


But, JLD, what kind of signs are you seeing that she is not FULL SPEED divorce? I guess you may be privy to more info than me because Grid is following your advice. From my perspective: Grid is in love with his wife. I was, too, in spite of her cheating. He therefore WANTS to take your advice because in spite of the obvious, he wants to cling to the hope you are giving him that his marriage isn't over. As much as I'd like you to be right, there just is nothing, nothing that I've seen to show she isn't divorcing grid, and also nothing NOTHING that tells me he should even WANT her back.
She is not a hard worker, she is not nurturing to Grid, she is not trustworthy, and she is a spendthrift. What are the good qualities of this woman? Mine had only a couple. 
I'm truly curious about why you are so adamant that this woman still has some deeply hidden love for Grid. You are not a bad-spirited person, even though I think your advice is just bass ackward. I just hate to see the man suffer needlessly.


----------



## gridcom

ButtPunch said:


> You have been listening to this for three months and all it has gotten you is divorce papers. Over three months and you have gotten nowhere. So tell me is it gonna change in the next three months.


I dont think it's gotten me nowhere. I think I am way stronger emotionally than I was 3 months ago, and wiser. So, that is more than nothing. I think my wife's attitude has improved since DDay for sure. So, to say it's gotten nowhere is false. It's not gotten where I WANT it to be, sure, but to say it's the same (or worse) wouldn't be true.

I can only really speak for myself and my observations. We are in a better place than where we were, but that doesnt mean divorce isnt on the horizon nor does it mean we arent struggling with our roles and feelings


----------



## gridcom

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Grid, saying someone needs to do something is not akin to saying "bad girl, bad girl." It is all about how it is presented. Why? Her defeated attitude, sniping, anger and moping around the house may have nothing to do with your alleged badgering. It is just as likely she is feeling this way because she can't be with her lover.
> 
> .


I havent considered this, but it may very well be true. She would very likely deny the sh*t out of this, but it makes sense. She very much lacks energy these days and very much tries to tune out the whole affair (both literal affair and figurative affair)


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

gridcom said:


> She says "These people tell me I am wrong and I need to fix my marriage, but they dont live with you" and my response is "I'm quite sure you are painting an unflattering picture of me to them to justify your actions, so it isnt like they have no idea"


10,000 feet dude. This is what the 180 is for. I wouldn't be having these conversations with my wife. It would be set aside and when she left, then I'd point these things out when she asked why. Along with, "you filed, it is what you wanted remember?"

See, I don't think you are weak, I think you are seeing and hearing what you want. I stopped posting for awhile since I had irritated you at one point. You keep posting all of these things that would be a kick in the pants to me. 
Give me Space.
They don't live with you.
Unrepentant.
Quit being Bossy.
Give me time.
Staying at my job.
Having a lawyer.
Bad mouthing you to others.

You can't expect or force someone to change or see things your way. BY themselves or on occasion I can see her doing these things. If they were occurring in small groups over a year or so I might even side partially with jld. You've been posting for exactly 3 months. 7-10-2015 is when you first posted.

IN less than three months, your wife loves another man, filed for divorced, won't quit her job and is bad mouthing you. Oh, well, she did agree to retro or whatever it is called.

This is why I keep saying give her what she wants. The money on retro would be spent on a divorce lawyer. WHen she asked what happened to the money "hey, I have to protect myself as well."


----------



## gridcom

turnera said:


> Yeah, have a big talk about NOT SPENDING MONEY, sell stuff, cut up cards and remove access to funds, and find ways to earn more. The only thing I can't get my H to do is cut up his credit cards. I have, however, stopped giving him the NEW cards when they come in the mail.
> 
> grid, IIWY, the first thing I would do is stop giving her access to any money. Other than groceries (since you have kids), housing and utilities, stop giving her access to any of your money. You could even buy prepaid gift cards to the grocery store. For HER benefit, so she wakes up and sees what life without your money looks like.


No excess money being spent. I mean, we can cut off HBONow or Netflix or stop going to Panera after Church, but these are the things in life that make it bearable. Nobody here is spending any excess money. I have hole's in my underpants and I have exactly TWO pairs on jeans, that I alternate between. The blue ones and the dark blues ones


----------



## jld

gridcom said:


> I get that, but unless she is "mental", she knows better. When she says something silly that pierces the air, I cant let it fly without a response of "No, that's not the way I see it at all."
> 
> And another thing to add, I am not the only one in her life acting this way towards her. She is getting this from all directions except for her one friend who works for the lawyer
> 
> She says "These people tell me I am wrong and I need to fix my marriage, but they dont live with you" and my response is "I'm quite sure you are painting an unflattering picture of me to them to justify your actions, so it isnt like they have no idea"


Grid, just reading this makes me feel you have so much chance at reconciliation. There is a lot of support for her to reconcile.

Do you know what I mean by listening without agreeing?

Something like this:

G2: I don't want a job.
G1: You don't want a job. 
G2: No, I want to stay home with the kids.
G1: You want to stay home with the kids.
G2: Yes. I know we have debt, but surely there is another way to attack it.
G1: Do you have any ideas?
G2: How about we sell the house and buy something cheaper?
G1: We could, but the kids would have to change schools.
G2: That's true. You know, I am kind of scared I won't like a new job.
G1: You are scared you won't like it.
G2: Yeah, I want to like going to work.
G1: How about we look at things you might like to do?
G2: Okay. It would be nice if we could look together.
G1: Sure thing, hon. I think you are good at x,y,z. How about we look in ...
G2: Thanks, grid. I really appreciate your trying to help me.


----------



## Evinrude58

turnera said:


> Yeah, have a big talk about NOT SPENDING MONEY, sell stuff, cut up cards and remove access to funds, and find ways to earn more. The only thing I can't get my H to do is cut up his credit cards. I have, however, stopped giving him the NEW cards when they come in the mail.
> 
> grid, IIWY, the first thing I would do is stop giving her access to any money. Other than groceries (since you have kids), housing and utilities, stop giving her access to any of your money. You could even buy prepaid gift cards to the grocery store. For HER benefit, so she wakes up and sees what life without your money looks like.


If Grid cuts her off from the money and makes her feel like he is the leader in this marriage and that he actually has a say in how things are done, she will run for the hills. 
Not really, it's obvious she has no hills to run to or she'd have been gone long ago; basically what she said when she said she'd stay since he is bringing in a paycheck.


----------



## Chuck71

Who was the poster in CWI who stuck his head in the sand and refused to believe she would take him to

the cleaners in the D? She claimed to only want a partial buy out of the equity, did not want child support,

wanted 50 / 50 custody, did not want alimony, did not want his retirement.

In the end she got the house, alimony, of course child support, half his retirement, 75 / 25 custody.

She then threw a RO on him.... made up allegations, took full custody of the kids, he had two hours a week

supervised custody.... with HER present.

This guy was paying the mortgage she lived at, enough alimony to cover all her expenses, child support,

medical insurance... the guy was living in a seedy bad side of town hotel even though he made a great salary.

The final straw was his XW refused to let him have any visitation where he lived because it was "unsanitary"

The guy quit his job and left town.... moved back home with his parents. Last I recall, his parents are fighting 

for grandparent visitation.

Grid.......... some D do end up this bad. Courts in NY are slanted to favor the female.

Not as bad as years ago.... but still slanted.


----------



## Sammy64

jld said:


> Grid, just reading this makes me feel you have so much chance at reconciliation. There is a lot of support for her to reconcile.
> 
> Do you know what I mean by listening without agreeing?
> 
> Something like this:
> 
> G2: I don't want a job.
> G1: You don't want a job.
> G2: No, I want to stay home with the kids.
> G1: You want to stay home with the kids.
> G2: Yes. I know we have debt, but surely there is another way to attack it.
> G1: Do you have any ideas?
> G2: How about we sell the house and buy something cheaper?
> G1: We could, but the kids would have to change schools.
> G2: That's true. You know, I am kind of scared I won't like a new job.
> G1: You are scared you won't like it.
> G2: Yeah, I want to like going to work.
> G1: How about we look at things you might like to do?
> G2: Okay. It would be nice if we could look together.
> G1: Sure thing, hon. I think you are good at x,y,z. How about we look in ...
> G2: Thanks, grid. I really appreciate your trying to help me.



:surprise:
This keeps getting better!!


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> I dont think it's gotten me nowhere. I think I am way stronger emotionally than I was 3 months ago, and wiser. So, that is more than nothing. I think my wife's attitude has improved since DDay for sure. So, to say it's gotten nowhere is false. It's not gotten where I WANT it to be, sure, but to say it's the same (or worse) wouldn't be true.
> 
> I can only really speak for myself and my observations. We are in a better place than where we were, but that doesnt mean divorce isnt on the horizon nor does it mean we arent struggling with our roles and feelings


Time heals wounds that's why you are stronger emotionally. The shock has subsided. The anxiety has lessened. I know what you went thru cause I have been thru it. 

I am talking about where you are at in your marriage. Limbo then and limbo now. TAM standard advice is for the BS to not accept being in limbo.


----------



## jld

Evinrude58 said:


> But, JLD, what kind of signs are you seeing that she is not FULL SPEED divorce? I guess you may be privy to more info than me because Grid is following your advice. From my perspective: Grid is in love with his wife. I was, too, in spite of her cheating. He therefore WANTS to take your advice because in spite of the obvious, he wants to cling to the hope you are giving him that his marriage isn't over. As much as I'd like you to be right, there just is nothing, nothing that I've seen to show she isn't divorcing grid, and also nothing NOTHING that tells me he should even WANT her back.
> She is not a hard worker, she is not nurturing to Grid, she is not trustworthy, and she is a spendthrift. What are the good qualities of this woman? Mine had only a couple.
> I'm truly curious about why you are so adamant that this woman still has some deeply hidden love for Grid. You are not a bad-spirited person, even though I think your advice is just bass ackward. I just hate to see the man suffer needlessly.


They created the debt together. They have to pare it down together.

If she did not love him, she would be gone, or planning to be gone. I just don't think her heart is totally in the divorce.

This marriage can be saved! I totally believe this!

Getting on track financially, as well as rebuilding the emotional relationship, is the way forward. Grid must listen to her feelings, but does not have to agree with them. He does need to make her feel safe talking to him, though. He has to create comfort in the relationship. 

Again, he wants a partner, not a prisoner.


----------



## LongWalk

Grid,

Folks would not be interested in your thread if they thought you and your family were hopeless.

You wrote:



> I think to say she is clever and cunning and knows exactly what she is doing is totally false. My mother today said she was "dead wood" meaning she is just dragging herself around completely physically drained. It's not an act. It's rather sad to see it.


BP commented:



> She's possibly mourning the loss of the OM


Grid,

You are on the verge of a breakthrough in understanding. BP does not mean that your wife has her sh*t together. Clearly she does not. However, she knows that she has a relationship with you that follows certain patterns of co-dependency. Participating in this merely encourages her to continue abusing you.

You help her apply for jobs. It leaves her apathetic and depressed. Are you supposed to find two more such opportunities?

A while back there was guy named LostLove whose situation you could relate to. He was some sort of web guy with marketable skills that earned a decent living. He and his wife bought a dream home on the Atlantic coast by the sea, as in beach on the doorstep. This dream home became a nightmare that his two little kids never really got to enjoy.

His wife, a school counselor, had unbeknownst to him entered into this restless discontent. They were at a casino and she was a little drunk and manic. She wanted to party hard and he wanted to go home. Their relationship ruptured. She want the freedom to sleep with other men but she did not want to simply divorce. She got a house in another state. Suddenly he was living by the sea completely isolated.

She was and wasn't done with him. He followed her on Facebook. They had conversations. She was sleeping with OM1 and others and then back to OM1. She was so needy that details about her pursuit of a new perfect guy even became topic of conversation between them. It was pure torture because she would say stuff like, she should not have a telephone. And some men were not nice. You understood that she had filmed her genitals for guys she was trying to date and she had quickly gained a fun girl reputation.

Her intended journey was romance, sex and new stability with a new husband who would be a great stepdad. But she was just reduced back to OM1, a guy who played the guitar. She called OM1 when she had a flat tire. LostLove was so hurt that he had not called him.

LostLove was not dating, not living all the while thinking his WW was the only woman in the world for him. He missed his daughters terribly. When he did get them he was tortured because it just freed his wife to go and try to score the miracle man.

His wife did agree that they would try and reconnect. She and the in-laws came down to the seaside. Grandpa and grandma were supposed to babysit the little girls for a week while LostLove and his WW dated and had sex again if they could. But after a dry attempt to make out, WW said she still wasn't feeling it and they week was cut down to four days.

At long last LostLove sold the d*mn house and moved within a reasonable drive so that he could be dad again. Being in society again he finally got the strength to push the divorce into the courts. His wife was hot and cold. Yes to divorce and then no. LL started to date and met a single mom who knew how to give him space. She even said if his wife wanted him back she would let him for for the kids' sake.

LostLove's wife picked upon on her poor estranged husband's improvement of spirits. He was getting laid. She did not know the details but his tail was no longer between his legs. Now she wanted to talk about reconciliation. She wanted him back but with some therapy to break him in.

We all wondered what became of him but he came back a year later and said WW was his ex. His life was good. He did not need her mind games.

Was his wife an evil, immoral in some special capacity? No, she was just flawed human being who had issues and dealt with them the wrong way. School counselor, no less. Her betrayed husband felt she was the only one, until at last, she was just a broken person for whom he refused to take further responsibility.

Prolonging a failed relationship is a mistake, especially when it is destructive to your self esteem.

There are other examples.

If your wife is suffering from depression, she should see a psychologist or psychiatrist. If money is tight, she should look for alternative care. Once you divorce she'll have to buy Obamacare.

There is nothing stopping her from running to get some endorphins flowing. You cannot run for her. You can only run for yourself.


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> No excess money being spent. I mean, we can cut off HBONow or Netflix or stop going to Panera after Church, but these are the things in life that make it bearable. Nobody here is spending any excess money. I have hole's in my underpants and I have exactly TWO pairs on jeans, that I alternate between. The blue ones and the dark blues ones


Don't Dave Ramsey your Game of Thrones


----------



## TeddieG

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Grid, saying someone needs to do something is not akin to saying "bad girl, bad girl." It is all about how it is presented. Why? Her defeated attitude, sniping, anger and moping around the house may have nothing to do with your alleged badgering. It is just as likely she is feeling this way because she can't be with her lover.
> 
> .



THIS!!! :iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

How do I know this? Because my H was an azzhole regularly (even when he was communicating from his space with the OW) but he was never MORE of an azzhole than when he was missing her. TOTALLY something jld would never get or expect or understand, and yet she lays into Gridcom like it is HIS fault?


----------



## gridcom

Chuck71 said:


> Who was the poster in CWI who stuck his head in the sand and refused to believe she would take him to
> 
> the cleaners in the D? She claimed to only want a partial buy out of the equity, did not want child support,
> 
> wanted 50 / 50 custody, did not want alimony, did not want his retirement.
> 
> In the end she got the house, alimony, of course child support, half his retirement, 75 / 25 custody.
> 
> She then threw a RO on him.... made up allegations, took full custody of the kids, he had two hours a week
> 
> supervised custody.... with HER present.
> 
> This guy was paying the mortgage she lived at, enough alimony to cover all her expenses, child support,
> 
> medical insurance... the guy was living in a seedy bad side of town hotel even though he made a great salary.
> 
> The final straw was his XW refused to let him have any visitation where he lived because it was "unsanitary"
> 
> The guy quit his job and left town.... moved back home with his parents. Last I recall, his parents are fighting
> 
> for grandparent visitation.
> 
> Grid.......... some D do end up this bad. Courts in NY are slanted to favor the female.
> 
> Not as bad as years ago.... but still slanted.


I want to vomit


----------



## turnera

> I want to vomit


NOW do you see why we're pushing you to stop waiting for her to be nice?

Women's top Emotional Need is almost always security, in one form or another. So, even if she's in crisis over her marriage and/or lover, she is STILL silently thinking, maybe without even knowing it, 'what steps do I take to ensure I'm going to be secure?' Every step we take is with that in mind. In HER mind, it is her JOB to ensure she is taken care of, and probably whether you are in the picture at the end isn't even in the discussion: just your money. You know, since she's basically a SAHM with a pretend job. YOUR job in her life is, and has forever been, to take care of her. Don't make the mistake of thinking that is not her ultimate goal.

My SIL left my brother for another man and said 'don't worry, I don't want anything, just what I walked in with.' She ended up with 60% of everything. And he had a lot of everything.

I guess what I mean is we are trying to make sure you are protecting yourself and have no rose-colored glasses on by which you end up nailed to the wall. Be nice to her, give her a chance, go to Retro, but by all means don't make the mistake of thinking she won't take you to the cleaners.


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> No excess money being spent. I mean, we can cut off HBONow or Netflix or stop going to Panera after Church, but these are the things in life that make it bearable. Nobody here is spending any excess money. I have hole's in my underpants and I have exactly TWO pairs on jeans, that I alternate between. The blue ones and the dark blues ones


Does your WW have holey underwear and two pair of jeans also?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## gridcom

ButtPunch said:


> Does your WW have holey underwear and two pair of jeans also?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The female version of a low cost, sh*tty wardrobe, yes. We are not spenders. The debt is a combo of where we live (not the house, but where) some bad financial moves (two specifically) and honestly, a one (and a 1/4) income household as opposed to two.


----------



## jld

gridcom said:


> The female version of a low cost, sh*tty wardrobe, yes. We are not spenders. The debt is a combo of where we live (not the house, but where) some bad financial moves (two specifically) and honestly, a one (and a 1/4) income household as opposed to two.


Could you move?


----------



## Chuck71

LongWalk said:


> Grid,
> 
> Folks would not be interested in your thread if they thought you and your family were hopeless.
> 
> You wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> BP commented:
> 
> 
> 
> Grid,
> 
> You are on the verge of a breakthrough in understanding. BP does not mean that your wife has her sh*t together. Clearly she does not. However, she knows that she has a relationship with you that follows certain patterns of co-dependency. Participating in this merely encourages her to continue abusing you.
> 
> You help her apply for jobs. It leaves her apathetic and depressed. Are you supposed to find two more such opportunities?
> 
> A while back there was guy named LostLove whose situation you could relate to. He was some sort of web guy with marketable skills that earned a decent living. He and his wife bought a dream home on the Atlantic coast by the sea, as in beach on the doorstep. This dream home became a nightmare that his two little kids never really got to enjoy.
> 
> His wife, a school counselor, had unbeknownst to him entered into this restless discontent. They were at a casino and she was a little drunk and manic. She wanted to party hard and he wanted to go home. Their relationship ruptured. She want the freedom to sleep with other men but she did not want to simply divorce. She got a house in another state. Suddenly he was living by the sea completely isolated.
> 
> She was and wasn't done with him. He followed her on Facebook. They had conversations. She was sleeping with OM1 and others and then back to OM1. She was so needy that details about her pursuit of a new perfect guy even became topic of conversation between them. It was pure torture because she would say stuff like, she should not have a telephone. And some men were not nice. You understood that she had filmed her genitals for guys she was trying to date and she had quickly gained a fun girl reputation.
> 
> Her intended journey was romance, sex and new stability with a new husband who would be a great stepdad. But she was just reduced back to OM1, a guy who played the guitar. She called OM1 when she had a flat tire. LostLove was so hurt that he had not called him.
> 
> LostLove was not dating, not living all the while thinking his WW was the only woman in the world for him. He missed his daughters terribly. When he did get them he was tortured because it just freed his wife to go and try to score the miracle man.
> 
> His wife did agree that they would try and reconnect. She and the in-laws came down to the seaside. Grandpa and grandma were supposed to babysit the little girls for a week while LostLove and his WW dated and had sex again if they could. But after a dry attempt to make out, WW said she still wasn't feeling it and they week was cut down to four days.
> 
> At long last LostLove sold the d*mn house and moved within a reasonable drive so that he could be dad again. Being in society again he finally got the strength to push the divorce into the courts. His wife was hot and cold. Yes to divorce and then no. LL started to date and met a single mom who knew how to give him space. She even said if his wife wanted him back she would let him for for the kids' sake.
> 
> LostLove's wife picked upon on her poor estranged husband's improvement of spirits. He was getting laid. She did not know the details but his tail was no longer between his legs. Now she wanted to talk about reconciliation. She wanted him back but with some therapy to break him in.
> 
> We all wondered what became of him but he came back a year later and said WW was his ex. His life was good. He did not need her mind games.
> 
> Was his wife an evil, immoral in some special capacity? No, she was just flawed human being who had issues and dealt with them the wrong way. School counselor, no less. Her betrayed husband felt she was the only one, until at last, she was just a broken person for whom he refused to take further responsibility.
> 
> Prolonging a failed relationship is a mistake, especially when it is destructive to your self esteem.
> 
> There are other examples.
> 
> If your wife is suffering from depression, she should see a psychologist or psychiatrist. If money is tight, she should look for alternative care. Once you divorce she'll have to buy Obamacare.
> 
> There is nothing stopping her from running to get some endorphins flowing. You cannot run for her. You can only run for yourself.


LostLove77 is another great thread to read....... Conrad and Moxy gave GREAT advice


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Well then, sit down and write out your financials for you. No, not with the intent to show her, but to show yourself exactly where you'd be after a divorce. Then do the same for her after the divorce. Look at the best and worst possible outcomes. This will take you a few days. I'm talking legit research. Go look at websites that show the average division of assets for your states and have formulas for division of assets. Then look at the laws and then show how much it works as a unit and separately.

After you get this collated and easily digestible for a fog head, show it to her. Her reaction will not only be telling, it will inform you of where her head is at. Oh and no, she isn't in the fog at all to me. No, it isn't cunning she is smart and knows exactly what she is doing. Knowing what you want and knowing what you are doing are totally separate concepts.


----------



## Chuck71

gridcom said:


> I want to vomit


I am glad you would.....


----------



## TheTruthHurts

jld said:


> If she divorces him and does not look back, I will know it is over, evinrude.
> 
> We are not there yet, and *I am trying to prevent our getting there.*


:nono::nono::nono::nono:

This says it all jld!!

Read what you wrote and then be honest with yourself and with Grid.

YOU are not part of this. You won't get here or there. Payouts are projecting your unconventional views which are not grounded in experience but are based on your own wants.

You have personalized this and are manipulating Grid and asking him to do the same.

Are some of your posts insightful about mrs grid's thought processes? Grid says yes so I'll not opine differently. But mrs grid isn't thinking clearly of behaving rationally. So since you know what she's thinking I would assume your advice would be mildly interesting but entirely useless.

Grid is taking less fantasy crap from mrs grid and nicely (IMHO) pointing out it is magical thinking.

Nothing short of a shrink will penetrate the magical thinking so I would not dump that obligation on Grid.

Grid - I do understand that it is probably hard to watch mrs grid wallow and let time pass with no effort expecting to get either a divorce payoff, a reconciliation where she has no work to do, or another man. Tough to see someone you have loved sink to such clearly delusional lows. But I don't think you can - or should - fix her. Jld wants you to be mrs grids knight in shining armor and save her from herself but that isn't going to happen.


----------



## jld

I don't think this needs to end in divorce. That is what I am saying.


----------



## Chuck71

Grid.... those cracklings in the side of your eyes is from being asleep.

You are being unplugged..... Neo wasn't crazy about it at first.... then he learned.

God I wish Mavish was here..... she was Group's Morpheus 

matter of fact, I think she was Conrad's too.

As a guy..... if I was in your shoes.... I would listen closely to Turnera.... she is speaking the absolute truth 

Cause y'know... as some say... we men are biased and not emotionally strong :rofl::rofl::rofl:

There are several females who respond here frequently...... maybe he just needs this PoV

from a female..... like he does "others"


----------



## TeddieG

turnera said:


> NOW do you see why we're pushing you to stop waiting for her to be nice?
> 
> Women's top Emotional Need is almost always security, in one form or another. So, even if she's in crisis over her marriage and/or lover, she is STILL silently thinking, maybe without even knowing it, 'what steps do I take to ensure I'm going to be secure?' Every step we take is with that in mind. In HER mind, it is her JOB to ensure she is taken care of, and probably whether you are in the picture at the end isn't even in the discussion: just your money. You know, since she's basically a SAHM with a pretend job. YOUR job in her life is, and has forever been, to take care of her. Don't make the mistake of thinking that is not her ultimate goal.
> 
> My SIL left my brother for another man and said 'don't worry, I don't want anything, just what I walked in with.' She ended up with 60% of everything. And he had a lot of everything.
> 
> I guess what I mean is we are trying to make sure you are protecting yourself and have no rose-colored glasses on by which you end up nailed to the wall. Be nice to her, give her a chance, go to Retro, but by all means don't make the mistake of thinking she won't take you to the cleaners.


:Iagree:

Brilliant.


----------



## Chuck71

jld said:


> I don't think this needs to end in divorce. That is what I am saying.


Nor should the W cheated
Nor should the W turn cold
Nor should the W have her bones mounted and say "don't read into it"
Nor should the W file D papers
Nor should the W refuse to engage in any form of communication not suiting her
Nor should the W want him to support her while she seeks OM#2 or recapture of OM#1

That is what *I* am saying.


----------



## Sammy64

I’m sure this is not the Norm, But when I divorced my ExW, I came out even better then when I was married to her. I owned the house before we married, ya 19 days before, but the law is the law. I sold it and paid off my debt, and the community debt that I had agreed on to take from the marriage. Yes, I pay CS, but no alimony, and now without dragging that thing behind me I am financially better off. She would use every dime we had to our name, and over drawn the bank accounts (Yes more than one) just so she could go shopping. One of the best things I did was cut all the Credit cards that had MY name on it. Removed her from any of the accounts after the decree was submitted to the court. I called the bank (USAA) and had them remove me as her sponsor so she did not get any special treatment from them, Funny her car insurance went up $45 a month. She was pissed at me for that. 
Even if you do divorce, you will not be broke all of your life, and there is light at the end of that tunnel.


----------



## TeddieG

TheTruthHurts said:


> :nono::nono::nono::nono:
> 
> This says it all jld!!
> 
> Read what you wrote and then be honest with yourself and with Grid.
> 
> YOU are not part of this. You won't get here or there. Payouts are projecting your unconventional views which are not grounded in experience but are based on your own wants.
> 
> *You have personalized this and are manipulating Grid and asking him to do the same.*
> 
> Are some of your posts insightful about mrs grid's thought processes? Grid says yes so I'll not opine differently. But mrs grid isn't thinking clearly of behaving rationally. So since you know what she's thinking I would assume your advice would be mildly interesting but entirely useless.
> 
> Grid is taking less fantasy crap from mrs grid and nicely (IMHO) pointing out it is magical thinking.
> 
> Nothing short of a shrink will penetrate the magical thinking so I would not dump that obligation on Grid.
> 
> Grid - I do understand that it is probably hard to watch mrs grid wallow and let time pass with no effort expecting to get either a divorce payoff, a reconciliation where she has no work to do, or another man. Tough to see someone you have loved sink to such clearly delusional lows. But I don't think you can - or should - fix her. Jld wants you to be mrs grids knight in shining armor and save her from herself but that isn't going to happen.


Thank you for finally pointing this out. I saw it earlier and was going to comment but decided to refrain. And then I thought about it. Some memories returned, from when I worked with a woman for 5 years. The woman I worked with was in over her head but had a heady position because her husband was the University President's best friend. She insisted on an important job if her husband was going to come out of retirement to teach part-time at the request of the President. This woman could do or say anything or behave any way she wanted, and we all had to protect her from the consequences. We spent our time righting her wrongs, negotiating solutions to the problems she created, and generally giving our 9-5 life to cleaning up behind her, and doing our own real jobs in our spare time. We had to pretend she was God's gift to our profession when she knew absolutely nothing about it and was derisive about it. She was constantly offending people all over campus. We all had to keep up the pretense that in every way and every day that she was always absolutely right and knew oh so much more than the rest of us. If she said the moon was made of cream cheese, we were to show up with bagels and spreaders and create a line. 

The only thing that mattered was that SHE be made to feel as if SHE and SHE alone knew how the profession worked, why the rest of us were wrong (we all had the appropriate degrees, she didn't), and you know what? After all that trouble on our part, she was still never EVER happy. 

And the funny thing . . . her husband was a professor here years ago, retired, and then came back at the request of the University President. This woman was his OW, broke up his marriage, and was a graduate student (not in HIS department) at the time. She mimicked him, since he was an ordained minister and a PhD in a secular academy. She got ordained, but rather than get a real PhD she had a doctorate in Ministry, which is only a year-long kind of internship. But she was going to be just like him, ape him, mimic him, and then pretend she was a separate and unique person. 

And her husband was miserable, often weeping in his office because of the jams she got her and him into, and was one of the many people getting her out of them. 

Go figure.


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> I don't think this needs to end in divorce. That is what I am saying.


I'm replying to you but in essence I'm really talking to grid.

What is so bad about divorce? A divorce will give each of them space. A divorce will put the individual burdens on the respective individuals. Grid will no longer feel the need to prop up his lethargic wife and she would not have to put up with a controlling neglectful husband. And if she is exaggerating his deficiencies then she will no doubt realize that he wasn't such a bad guy after all. And divorce doesn't mean their relationship is over forever. They will still have the children in common. They will still have the extended families. They can still date. They can reconnect. They can even remarry. All I'm saying is that the emphasis here shouldn't be on whether they divorce or not. It should be on their relationship as a whole and how they can potentially reconnect. It should be on addressing each other's needs irrespective of their marital situation. Most of your posts seem to place grid in the dictator's chair. If grid is the cause of all her emotional woes maybe a split isn't such a bad idea. If she is dragging the family unit down by refusing to hold up her end maybe a split will bring a much needed dose of reality into her life. I care less about saving the marriage than I care about saving the individuals in the marriage.


----------



## jld

I think a reconciliation could be a chance for them to grow, Bfree. While I am asking grid to be the leader, that does not mean his wife will not be responding. They will both need to look deep and hard at themselves. That usually brings about growth.

Divorce is expensive. Maintaining two separate households is expensive. Figuring out custody and covering child care is a pain. If all that can be avoided, why not try?


----------



## TeddieG

bfree said:


> I'm replying to you but in essence I'm really talking to grid.
> 
> What is so bad about divorce? A divorce will give each of them space. A divorce will put the individual burdens on the respective individuals. Grid will no longer feel the need to prop up his lethargic wife and she would not have to put up with a controlling neglectful husband. And if she is exaggerating his deficiencies then she will no doubt realize that he wasn't such a bad guy after all. And divorce doesn't mean their relationship is over forever. They will still have the children in common. They will still have the extended families. They can still date. They can reconnect. They can even remarry. All I'm saying is that the emphasis here shouldn't be on whether they divorce or not. It should be on their relationship as a whole and how they can potentially reconnect. It should be on addressing each other's needs irrespective of their marital situation. Most of your posts seem to place grid in the dictator's chair. If grid is the cause of all her emotional woes maybe a split isn't such a bad idea. If she is dragging the family unit down by refusing to hold up her end maybe a split will bring a much needed dose of reality into her life. I care less about saving the marriage than I care about saving the individuals in the marriage.


People told me this for YEARS and I didn't buy it. But now that my h is gone and has been gone and stayed gone and given me some space, I have really had the opportunity to pick up where I left off on my self-work. 

This week I realized I lost respect for my husband in 2006 when he wasn't mad and angry and pissed off as hell when the doctor who screwed up his penis with a stent didn't lose any sleep over it. I did. Our sex life stopped and instead of blaming the doctor, who deserved it (and died before we could sue for malpractice) my husband decided, as he said, that if he was in love with ME he wouldn't have ED, and he solved his problems by getting sex (for a little while, until the Viagra stopped working) elsewhere. 

I also drove to work this week and realized I needed to forgive the now dead doctor and realize that I wasn't able to express my anger towards him because my h didn't see HIM as the problem. 

You can't do that kind of work when you have a pissy fog-driven selfish human being sharing your space. But you can't heal until you do it either.


----------



## Chuck71

Sammy64 said:


> I’m sure this is not the Norm, But when I divorced my ExW, I came out even better then when I was married to her. I owned the house before we married, ya 19 days before, but the law is the law. I sold it and paid off my debt, and the community debt that I had agreed on to take from the marriage. Yes, I pay CS, but no alimony, and now without dragging that thing behind me I am financially better off. She would use every dime we had to our name, and over drawn the bank accounts (Yes more than one) just so she could go shopping. One of the best things I did was cut all the Credit cards that had MY name on it. Removed her from any of the accounts after the decree was submitted to the court. I called the bank (USAA) and had them remove me as her sponsor so she did not get any special treatment from them, Funny her car insurance went up $45 a month. She was pissed at me for that.
> Even if you do divorce, you will not be broke all of your life, and there is light at the end of that tunnel.


Window Cork had 40+ NSF charges after I refused to do the books.

She paid every damn one of them.... well until the bank closed her account and went after her.

Reality 101


----------



## ButtPunch

Leaders do not tolerate disrespect. I hate when you throw that word out there.


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> Leaders do not tolerate disrespect. I hate when you throw that word out there.


Leaders _earn_ respect. There's a difference.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

jld said:


> Divorce is expensive. Maintaining two separate households is expensive. Figuring out custody and covering child care is a pain. If all that can be avoided, why not try?


He has been trying, you just want him to wait her out. Yes, that is a HUGE and negative difference.

They are 70k in debt, maintaining A marriage is expensive as well.


----------



## TeddieG

Chuck71 said:


> Grid.... those cracklings in the side of your eyes is from being asleep.
> 
> You are being unplugged..... Neo wasn't crazy about it at first.... then he learned.
> 
> *God I wish Mavish was here..... she was Group's Morpheus
> 
> matter of fact, I think she was Conrad's too.
> *
> As a guy..... if I was in your shoes.... I would listen closely to Turnera.... she is speaking the absolute truth
> 
> Cause y'know... as some say... we men are biased and not emotionally strong :rofl::rofl::rofl:
> 
> There are several females who respond here frequently...... maybe he just needs this PoV
> 
> from a female..... like he does "others"


I only know Mavish from ReGroup's thread, but I miss her. What a wonderfully true description - our Morpheus. She worked hard to get there, and was/is awesome.


----------



## ButtPunch

I wish Machiavelli was still around to give the ole Alpha Male speech.

I think it would start with.....

Grid

How often do women hit on you? What is your chest to torso ratio?


----------



## LongWalk

Grid,

Are you still sleeping apart?

Does your wife ever make physical contact?

Do you still desire to hold her? Or is she becoming repulsive?


----------



## Chuck71

jld said:


> I think a reconciliation could be a chance for them to grow, Bfree. While I am asking grid to be the leader, that does not mean his wife will not be responding. They will both need to look deep and hard at themselves. That usually brings about growth.
> 
> Divorce is expensive. Maintaining two separate households is expensive. Figuring out custody and covering child care is a pain. If all that can be avoided, why not try?


You and I clashed on Regretf's thread awhile back. You will not respond to me.....

I bet I know why


----------



## Another Planet

phillybeffandswiss said:


> He is still living plus, fighting for his marriage and kids, THAT makes him not weak to me. This is whether I agree with his choices or not. Supporting any side in this debate, reactionary, reactive, for or against or not proves nothing, but a person's own arrogance about what they posted if it is used as anything other than advice.


This is not fighting this is sacrificing. Never ever sacrifice.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Another Planet said:


> This is not fighting this is sacrificing. Never ever sacrifice.


Even fighting has sacrifice techniques so, we will disagree.


----------



## jld

phillybeffandswiss said:


> He has been trying, you just want him to wait her out. Yes, that is a HUGE and negative difference.
> 
> They are 70k in debt, maintaining A marriage is expensive as well.


From what he said, the debt is mainly from living in an expensive area and two financial mistakes (investments?). Neither appears to be a big spender.

I agreed with MEM last week that they needed to work on their finances. Financial stability is critical for families.

To get an emotional connection going, I think he needs to listen to her feelings. He does not have to agree, but he needs to at least listen. And he has to provide some emotional comfort. 

Grid is going to have similar problems in another relationship if he does not learn to do some of these things and work on his emotions. Getting a handle on that can only benefit him.

Grid is not a "Nice Guy." Grid is a dominant Italian male who blew off his wife too many times in the past. He knows this and has a pretty good idea how to repair things. He just has to decide if he will discipline himself to do it or not.


----------



## jld

Chuck71 said:


> You and I clashed on Regretf's thread awhile back. You will not respond to me.....
> 
> I bet I know why


I don't remember you from there. Do you have a question?


----------



## 3Xnocharm

jld said:


> I think a reconciliation could be a chance for them to grow, Bfree. While I am asking grid to be the leader, that does not mean his wife will not be responding. They will both need to look deep and hard at themselves. That usually brings about growth.
> 
> Divorce is expensive. Maintaining two separate households is expensive. Figuring out custody and covering child care is a pain. If all that can be avoided, why not try?


Have you ever read the CWI section of this forum?? It's not up to the BS to be the leader... The WS is the one who needs to pick up the lead, they have to rebuild the trust and prove themselves over and over and over! This woman cheated for a YEAR! She is IN LOVE with a man who is not her husband! This is not some drunken one night stand! And to top it off, she is NOT remorseful for what she's done! That single fact right there negates any chance for reconciliation! Without remorse, love or respect for her husband, there is no chance, at all. Stop leaving this up to the one who was betrayed!


----------



## ButtPunch

3Xnocharm said:


> Have you ever read the CWI section of this forum?? It's not up to the BS to be the leader... The WS is the one who needs to pick up the lead, they have to rebuild the trust and prove themselves over and over and over! This woman cheated for a YEAR! She is IN LOVE with a man who is not her husband! This is not some drunken one night stand! And to top it off, she is NOT remorseful for what she's done! That single fact right there negates any chance for reconciliation! Without remorse, love or respect for her husband, there is no chance, at all. Stop leaving this up to the one who was betrayed!


You're beating a dead horse.


----------



## Chuck71

jld said:


> From what he said, the debt is mainly from living in an expensive area and two financial mistakes (investments?). Neither appears to be a big spender.
> 
> I agreed with MEM last week that they needed to work on their finances. Financial stability is critical for families.
> 
> To get an emotional connection going, I think he needs to listen to her feelings. He does not have to agree, but he needs to at least listen. And he has to provide some emotional comfort.
> 
> Grid is going to have similar problems in another relationship if he does not learn to do some of these things and work on his emotions. Getting a handle on that can only benefit him.
> 
> Grid is not a "Nice Guy." Grid is a dominant Italian male who blew off his wife too many times in the past. He knows this and has a pretty good idea how to repair things. He just has to decide if he will discipline himself to do it or not.


It's way past the assuming stage

ask him directly

To become financially sound you crunch the #s NOT discuss patty cake feelings

Be sure and tell that to the lawyer dealing with your Chapter 13 and 7

This is not home ec, this is Reality 101

Real life........

Grid was a Mr Nice Guy, may very well still be. Yet I sense a shift... 

Grid would not have the same difficulty in his next relationship if he learns from the first and covers his arse

during the D. This isn't rocket science..... or I'd be confused as a rat in a desert.


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> I think a reconciliation could be a chance for them to grow, Bfree. While I am asking grid to be the leader, that does not mean his wife will not be responding. They will both need to look deep and hard at themselves. That usually brings about growth.
> 
> Divorce is expensive. Maintaining two separate households is expensive. Figuring out custody and covering child care is a pain. If all that can be avoided, why not try?


I agree with you but the reality is that grid can lead but she must decide to follow. Grid has demonstrated an incredible amount of self examination in this thread. So much so that he has drawn criticism from "the collective" for assuming responsibility for his wife's behavior. I for one do not see that he has done that. Like you I see a man who has bravely taken on the task of introspection and has come out the other side a wiser gentler creature. Does he still have his faults? Of course. Is he still flawed? Aren't we all? Does he still sometimes get it wrong? Absolutely. But as you say it is growth and growth is a process not a destination. Yet I have not seen the same level of soul searching from his wife. I have not heard him describe her zeal for betterment. I have hope that their visit to Retrovaille will succeed in breaking her from her doldrums.

Divorce is expensive. Maintaining two households is as well. And I dare say that figuring out custody and child care might be only two of many pains they will have to face. But sometimes facing pain isn't always a bad thing. Sometimes facing pain, especially facing pain together, is an opportunity for the growth that we both see is needed. If Retrovaille fails and they are still heading on course for a divorce it doesn't mean that it's the end. It could just be another hill to climb and overcome.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

jld said:


> From what he said, the debt is mainly from living in an expensive area and two financial mistakes (investments?). Neither appears to be a big spender.
> 
> I agreed with MEM last week that they needed to work on their finances. Financial stability is critical for families.
> 
> To get an emotional connection going, I think he needs to listen to her feelings. He does not have to agree, but he needs to at least listen. And he has to provide some emotional comfort.
> 
> Grid is going to have similar problems in another relationship if he does not learn to do some of these things and work on his emotions. Getting a handle on that can only benefit him.
> 
> Grid is not a "Nice Guy." Grid is a dominant Italian male who blew off his wife too many times in the past. He knows this and has a pretty good idea how to repair things. He just has to decide if he will discipline himself to do it or not.


Like I just said, you want him to wait. 

No one is talking about his next relationship.


----------



## Chuck71

jld said:


> I don't remember you from there. Do you have a question?


How ironic........ thank you for the kind notice......... proceed on


----------



## turnera

jld said:


> Grid is going to have similar problems in another relationship if he does not learn to do some of these things and work on his emotions. Getting a handle on that can only benefit him.


Which he has CLEARLY STATED, at least a DOZEN TIMES on this thread, that he is 100% aware of this and HAS moved on from being that person, 100%. Duh.


----------



## gridcom

jld said:


> I think a reconciliation could be a chance for them to grow, Bfree. While I am asking grid to be the leader, that does not mean his wife will not be responding. They will both need to look deep and hard at themselves. That usually brings about growth.
> 
> Divorce is expensive. Maintaining two separate households is expensive. Figuring out custody and covering child care is a pain. If all that can be avoided, why not try?


Like my IC said today, rather flatly....

"You two can't afford to divorce"


----------



## Chuck71

Yet did the IC recommend you to live in a tormented he!! until your body turns to ashes?


----------



## jld

gridcom said:


> Like my IC said today, rather flatly....
> 
> "You two can't afford to divorce"


She is right, grid. She is right.


----------



## gridcom

bfree said:


> i agree with you but the reality is that grid can lead but she must decide to follow. Grid has demonstrated an incredible amount of self examination in this thread. So much so that he has drawn criticism from "the collective" for assuming responsibility for his wife's behavior. I for one do not see that he has done that. Like you i see a man who has bravely taken on the task of introspection and has come out the other side a wiser gentler creature. Does he still have his faults? Of course. Is he still flawed? Aren't we all? Does he still sometimes get it wrong? Absolutely. But as you say it is growth and growth is a process not a destination. Yet i have not seen the same level of soul searching from his wife. I have not heard him describe her zeal for betterment. I have hope that their visit to retrovaille will succeed in breaking her from her doldrums.
> 
> Divorce is expensive. Maintaining two households is as well. And i dare say that figuring out custody and child care might be only two of many pains they will have to face. But sometimes facing pain isn't always a bad thing. Sometimes facing pain, especially facing pain together, is an opportunity for the growth that we both see is needed. If retrovaille fails and they are still heading on course for a divorce it doesn't mean that it's the end. It could just be another hill to climb and overcome.


i agree!


----------



## Chuck71

Money, possessions can always be replaced. The more you are stripped of your "self"

the more you lose your entire identity.

I would recommend a new IC, one not invested in capital portfolios


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

gridcom said:


> Like my IC said today, rather flatly....
> 
> "You two can't afford to divorce"


What else did this person say after this comment?


----------



## gridcom

Chuck71 said:


> Money, possessions can always be replaced. The more you are stripped of your "self"
> 
> the more you lose your entire identity.
> 
> I would recommend a new IC, one not invested in capital portfolios


WELCOME TO WESTCHESTER!!!
Where the IC's where scarves around their necks that are worth more than your gas grill


----------



## jld

She is still right. She is looking out for your best interests.


----------



## bfree

gridcom said:


> Like my IC said today, rather flatly....
> 
> "You two can't afford to divorce"


Your IC is most likely correct. There are two issues that I see though.

You didn't file the divorce petition therefore you cannot withdraw it.

If your wife doesn't agree to get a full time job you have no hope of extricating yourselves from this debt.

Have you given any thought as to what approach you will take if either of these scenarios comes to fruition?

BTW, in case I haven't made it clear enough I think you're doing well considering the circumstances you find yourself in and I dare say I'd probably be right where you are if I found myself in a similar situation.


----------



## gridcom

phillybeffandswiss said:


> What else did this person say after this comment?


My IC was very tought today. Confrontational maybe? Maybe that's too hard a word. Challenging. Beyond setting me straight when I try to justify my poor reactions, she thinks both my wife (and I, to a lesser degree) aren't considering the kids enough here. 

She's obviously more focused on me and what I am doing (in general) but today there was some very pointed remarks about the marriage


----------



## Chuck71

gridcom said:


> WELCOME TO WESTCHESTER!!!
> Where the IC's where scarves around their necks that are worth more than your gas grill


Get awake............ you are learning.......... providence

Who cares if you are knocked down

getting back up is all that matters.....

You are beginning to believe....... so f'ing proud!!!


----------



## Chuck71

jld said:


> She is still right. She is looking out for your best interests.


Or her co-pay collection


----------



## jld

gridcom said:


> My IC was very tought today. Confrontational maybe? Maybe that's too hard a word. Challenging. Beyond setting me straight when I try to justify my poor reactions, she thinks both my wife (and I, to a lesser degree) aren't considering the kids enough here.
> 
> She's obviously more focused on me and what I am doing (in general) but today there was some *very pointed remarks *about the marriage


Can you elaborate?

Is this the same person you are seeing for MC?


----------



## BrockLanders

gridcom said:


> WELCOME TO WESTCHESTER!!!
> Where the IC's where scarves around their necks that are worth more than your gas grill


You work from home, why in the world would you live in Westchester?


----------



## gridcom

jld said:


> Can you elaborate?
> 
> Is this the same person you are seeing for MC?


No IC and MC are different people. Honestly, a lot of what my IC told me today mirrored a lot of what I am hearing here in terms of people sizing up my wife. She was astounded mainly by my wife's lack of action and very astounded, mainly, that she even filed for divorce at all. That is what led to the comment about my wife not thinking about the kids enough. She thinks my wife and I shouldn't be pursuing reconciliation with a divorce looming over our heads. She didn't say my wife should pull the divorce but said you can't emotionally or objectively have one foot in R and one foot in D and get anywhere positive in R.

She suggested we pause the D, not discuss it, and work on R until Retrouvaille, then have a re-examination of the whole situation at that time

She also mirrored what my lawyer and my family lawyer said about Mediation, where you shouldnt have a divorce in process and simulataneously going towards mediation


----------



## gridcom

BrockLanders said:


> You work from home, why in the world would you live in Westchester?


Well, I havent always worked from home. This is a luxury I've earned. And now with mergers, I am soon not to be working at home again (at least full time). That is looming.


----------



## jld

Is your wife in IC?

I definitely agree you should pause the divorce and work on reconciliation. Facing the financial issues should make your wife more open to that. And grid, a little gentleness and kindness in your manner with her would not hurt on that end.


----------



## gridcom

jld said:


> Is your wife in IC?


No, she stopped because she said her IC was encouraging her to get rid of me. Hard time believing that, honestly.

Not that the IC said that, but that she stopped going there because of it


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Neither your IC, or us TAMers, should be emotionally invested in the outcome of your marriage/divorce.

It's your IC's job to help you figure out why you've tolerated this relationship. Why you ignore it when someone crosses boundaries. Why you have codependent tendencies.

It's your IC's job to help you understand that the only thing you can control is *your* actions and *your* thoughts.

It's your IC's job to help you understand why you've lost your individual identity.

If your IC, or someone here, has an agenda to either save or end your marriage, then I'd recommend you ignore their "advice".

The goal here is to help you navigate through an extremely sad, lonely, and miserable phase of your life. Many of us have walked those hot coals you're standing on. Some have reconciled, like ButtPunch. Some have divorced, like myself. We're still here, because someone was here for us when we needed it.

Whether or not your marriage survives, grid, you are going to *grow*. The advice many of us keep hammering over and over is to help you do just that: Grow. Wake up! The path is right before your eyes, and you just need to get on it. Otherwise, it's more limbo and more suffering.

*Step 1: 180 and detach.*

Until you do that, step 2 doesn't matter.

And I will reiterate. If some here are giving advice because they want to save your marriage, or push you into divorce, I suggest you be wary. They have an agenda. They are more interested in "being right" and winning than anything else.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

gridcom said:


> No IC and MC are different people. Honestly, a lot of what my IC told me today mirrored a lot of what I am hearing here in terms of people sizing up my wife. She was astounded mainly by my wife's lack of action and very astounded, mainly, that she even filed for divorce at all. That is what led to the comment about my wife not thinking about the kids enough. She thinks my wife and I shouldn't be pursuing reconciliation with a divorce looming over our heads. She didn't say my wife should pull the divorce but said you can't emotionally or objectively have one foot in R and one foot in D and get anywhere positive in R.
> 
> She suggested we pause the D, not discuss it, and work on R until Retrouvaille, then have a re-examination of the whole situation at that time
> 
> She also mirrored what my lawyer and my family lawyer said about Mediation, where you shouldnt have a divorce in process and simulataneously going towards mediation


Thank you. This puts her comment in the proper context. She sounds like a reasonable IC.


----------



## BrockLanders

gridcom said:


> No, she stopped because she said her IC was encouraging her to get rid of me. Hard time believing that, honestly.
> 
> Not that the IC said that, but that she stopped going there because of it


I believe it 100%. Do you think your wife bared all and opened up her soul or do you think she gave the therapist a highly editorialized version of your relationship?


----------



## ButtPunch

Your wife isn't going to pull this divorce. She's too worried about her security.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

gridcom said:


> No IC and MC are different people. Honestly, a lot of what my IC told me today mirrored a lot of what I am hearing here in terms of people sizing up my wife. She was astounded mainly by my wife's lack of action and very astounded, mainly, that she even filed for divorce at all. That is what led to the comment about my wife not thinking about the kids enough. She thinks my wife and I shouldn't be pursuing reconciliation with a divorce looming over our heads. She didn't say my wife should pull the divorce but said you can't emotionally or objectively have one foot in R and one foot in D and get anywhere positive in R.
> 
> She suggested we pause the D, not discuss it, and work on R until Retrouvaille, then have a re-examination of the whole situation at that time
> 
> She also mirrored what my lawyer and my family lawyer said about Mediation, where you shouldnt have a divorce in process and simulataneously going towards mediation


It seems that everyone is on the same page except your wife. Do the folks at Retrouville know that your wife has already filed?


----------



## Satya

gridcom said:


> Like my IC said today, rather flatly....
> 
> "You two can't afford to divorce"


You can't put a price on your dignity.


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> Is your wife in IC?
> 
> I definitely agree you should pause the divorce and work on reconciliation. Facing the financial issues should make your wife more open to that. And grid, a little gentleness and kindness in your manner with her would not hurt on that end.


You're right. It should make her more open to reconciliation. But it isn't. Why is that?

I think grid is being incredibly kind and gentle with his wife. Do you see a level of cruelty that I do not?


----------



## gridcom

BrockLanders said:


> I believe it 100%. Do you think your wife bared all and opened up her soul or do you think she gave the therapist a highly editorialized version of your relationship?


a highly editorialized version of our relationship, although born out of some truth

I describe it as if Salt=Good and Pepper=Bad, then all she is giving people is a ton of Pepper


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

bfree said:


> You're right. It should make her more open to reconciliation. But it isn't. Why is that?
> 
> I think grid is being incredibly kind and gentle with his wife. Do you see a level of cruelty that I do not?


Yes, she has explained this earlier. He accepted blame so he now has to make up for his cruelty no matter what. So even though he is being patient and doing all of the nice guy things, if he does anything assertive it is now cruel.


----------



## gridcom

bfree said:


> It seems that everyone is on the same page except your wife. Do the folks at Retrouville know that your wife has already filed?


No, among the questions they asked, that wasn't one of them. I got the impressions that pending divorces are common at Retrouvaille. I told the lady that I was more into going than my wife, that she was hesitant. She responded "Well, if both parties were equally wanting to come, then they likely dont have problems deep enough to come here in the first place"


----------



## gridcom

Another thing my IC said was that my wife and I's goal should be to get to a place where the marriage is "good enough". She actually said that. She said, in our situation "good enough" which she described as making each other laugh, being honest, having sex, raising kids, and making plans to go places together, was better than being divorced. She said that if either one of us expects to have the kind of intensity and passion found earlier in our relationship, it isn't going to happen and the bar is set too high.

I should mention she is a marriage counselor who was recommended to me early on, but I decided to go to her alone. She is also an IC, but does both


----------



## gridcom

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Yes, she has explained this earlier. He accepted blame so he now has to make up for his cruelty no matter what. So even though he is being patient and doing all of the nice guy things, if he does anything assertive it is now cruel.


Yep


----------



## jld

bfree said:


> You're right. It should make her more open to reconciliation. But it isn't. Why is that?
> 
> I think grid is being incredibly kind and gentle with his wife. Do you see a level of cruelty that I do not?


I don't see kindness and gentleness. I see him telling her she is wrong repeatedly, when he could just let her vent, and then gently challenge her. Two weeks ago he threatened to stop paying the mortgage, which is why she filed. That threat made her want to protect herself.

She has a decade of experience with grid's temper. She is wary.

The finances should pull her back in, though. And that gives grid such an opportunity. 

Grid, do you and your wife ever pull out the kids' baby pictures, or other photos of happier times? Have you suggested going for a walk at a favorite spot? 

Have you ever just listened when she was upset, not gotten mad, but just listened to her pain, even if covered by her anger? Just not taken it personally?

If you could hear her pain, without reacting to it, that would be a huge breakthrough. That would be a big step towards making her feel safe with you.

Honestly, grid, if she does not come to feel safe sharing her heart with you, I don't think reconciliation is going to work.


----------



## gridcom

jld said:


> I don't see kindness and gentleness. I see him telling her she is wrong repeatedly, when he could just let her vent, and then gently challenge her. Two weeks ago he threatened to stop paying the mortgage, which is why she filed. That threat made her want to protect herself.
> 
> She has a decade of experience with grid's temper. She is wary.
> 
> The finances should pull her back in, though. And that gives grid such an opportunity.
> 
> Grid, do you and your wife ever pull out the kids' baby pictures, or other photos of happier times?
> 
> No
> 
> Have you suggested going for a walk at a favorite spot?
> 
> Often
> 
> Have you ever just listened when she was upset, not gotten mad, but just listened to her pain, even if covered by her anger? Just not taken it personally?
> 
> Honestly, she doesn't do much talking. If she could never talk about this whole situation ever again, I think that is her #1 goal. She just wants the whole thing to go away with no effort or introspection. She doesn't talk much at all about this.
> 
> If you could hear her pain, without reacting to it, that would be a huge breakthrough. That would be a big step towards making her feel safe with you.
> 
> Honestly, grid, if she does not come to feel safe sharing her heart with you, I don't think reconciliation is going to work.


----------



## GusPolinski

Wow. 128 pages.

Divorced yet?


----------



## gridcom

GusPolinski said:


> Wow. 128 pages.
> 
> Divorced yet?


I you don't look like John Candy, I'd be bummed. When you type I hear his voice. If you changed your pic, you'd be less effective. DONT change the pic.


----------



## GusPolinski

gridcom said:


> I you don't look like John Candy, I'd be bummed. When you type I hear his voice. If you changed your pic, you'd be less effective. DONT change the pic.


Never.


----------



## jld

I am sure she is ashamed of herself. Grid, if you did this, would you want to talk about it?

I am afraid without talking, she will never really get back into the marriage.

Grid, I know you are hurt, and you have every right to be. 

Do you remember how the US treated Germany after WW2? The US could have crushed the German people, punished them severely for all the death and destruction they caused to so many other countries. But they did not.

They started to rebuild the country, gave food, helped them restart under peaceful conditions. And relations between the two countries became very good.

I know you are hurt. I know you cannot believe what she did to your trust in her, to everyone's trust in her. And that is totally understandable.

As hard as it would be, I do think if you could try to set those understandable feelings aside, and reach out to her in compassion, and help her rebuild, I think your marriage could become very good, very joyful and fulfilling. And yes, a loving, close, happy marriage is very much what I want for you and your wife.


----------



## LongWalk

You can afford divorce. Buy an sturdy old metal trailer and start building a tiny home. Divorce lies 5 months off, you can just make it.

Now that you are getting stronger are you beginning to lose attraction for your wife?

I asked a bit earlier but I know you are getting bombarded, are you still sleeping apart?

If you slept together without having sex, could you reduce anxiety? Offer her some comfort? 

Most definitely you don't want to be needy. But is it possible that going to sleep with your arms around one another could help get a good nights sleep. 

i don't see how you could stand sexual intimacy without having a clear idea of how long she and OM were physically involved. It will mess you up at this point to have any kind of false R.

While I don't think your job is fix your wife, you can ask her what you can do to help her. I would just listen. Don't answer with some kind of glib promises. Tell her you appreciate her sharing and that you will think about it.

Since she filed for D but said that she wants to work on maybe reconciling, you should be calling her on this. Not to badger her but show that you are capable of effort. Preparing for D is necessary but you can also use the time that the NY state legislature considered reasonable before finalizing divorce to put things back together.

Your IC was only pointing out what is common sense. Most divorce petition dismissals are for the sake of the children. That is what the studies showed.


----------



## jld

LongWalk said:


> While I don't think your job is fix your wife, you can ask her what you can do to help her. I would just listen. Don't answer with some kind of glib promises. Tell her you appreciate her sharing and that you will think about it.


I agree.


----------



## gridcom

LongWalk said:


> You can afford divorce. Buy an sturdy old metal trailer and start building a tiny home. Divorce lies 5 months off, you can just make it.
> 
> Now that you are getting stronger are you beginning to lose attraction for your wife?
> 
> No
> 
> I asked a bit earlier but I know you are getting bombarded, are you still sleeping apart?
> 
> No
> 
> If you slept together without having sex, could you reduce anxiety? Offer her some comfort?
> 
> Most definitely you don't want to be needy. But is it possible that going to sleep with your arms around one another could help get a good nights sleep.
> 
> Doubt it
> 
> i don't see how you could stand sexual intimacy without having a clear idea of how long she and OM were physically involved. It will mess you up at this point to have any kind of false R.
> 
> Yes, there is that. She is pretty insistent it was once. But, I think there might have been a few more.
> 
> While I don't think your job is fix your wife, you can ask her what you can do to help her. I would just listen. Don't answer with some kind of glib promises. Tell her you appreciate her sharing and that you will think about it.
> 
> She would say "Back off. Leave me alone"
> 
> Since she filed for D but said that she wants to work on maybe reconciling, you should be calling her on this. Not to badger her but show that you are capable of effort. Preparing for D is necessary but you can also use the time that the NY state legislature considered reasonable before finalizing divorce to put things back together.
> 
> Your IC was only pointing out what is common sense. Most divorce petition dismissals are for the sake of the children. That is what the studies showed.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

jld said:


> I don't see kindness and gentleness..


Thank you, I wasn't sure you were being myopic, I am now
So grid, what does your IC say about your alleged marital abuse and early strife, If you do not mind me asking?


----------



## gridcom

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Thank you, I wasn't sure you were being myopic, I am now
> So grid, what does your IC say about your a;;eged marital abuse and early strife, If you do not mind me asking?


Blames it on the way my father was verbally and occasionally physically abusive to my mother. Mimicking what I saw growing up even though I felt it was disgusting and felt sorry for my mother


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

gridcom said:


> Blames it on the way my father was verbally and occasionally physically abusive to my mother. Mimicking what I saw growing up even though I felt it was disgusting and felt sorry for my mother


So, she says you were abusive?


----------



## jld

gridcom said:


> Blames it on the way my father was verbally and occasionally physically abusive to my mother. Mimicking what I saw growing up even though I felt it was disgusting and felt sorry for my mother


It is really hard to change from what we saw modeled for us. I think we have all experienced that.


----------



## gridcom

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Thank you, I wasn't sure you were being myopic, I am now
> So grid, what does your IC say about your a;;eged marital abuse and early strife, If you do not mind me asking?


I should also add many people here claim that what I was doing to my wife before the affair, with the emotional abuse, was maybe "gaslit" or emphasized in a way that was unfair to me. I would say that the even though my issues with my wife pre affair were valid issues, my demeanor and attitude about it was one step beyond what is considered good bedside manner. That's the fact. And sometimes I was (am) just a sonofab%tch

I've said it before, I was on the mild to low mid end of being emotionally abusive if you look at the whole of the marriage, with a big dose of selfishness and workaholic-ness

I'm also extremely accountable and always have been. I own up to my faults (to a fault). Doing it here is nothing new. That I expect that from others and they constantly let me down in this regard is apparently a problem. My wife is extremely stubborn. That word has been tacked onto her from the moment I met her (in 1991). Someone who is accountable and expects that from others + someone who is stubborn = not a good mix.

She KNOWS a lot of what comes of my mouth is truth. She doesn't like the way it's said.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

gridcom said:


> I've said it before, I was on the mild to low mid end of being emotionally abusive if you look at the whole of the marriage, with a big dose of selfishness and workaholic-ness
> 
> I'm also extremely accountable and always have been. I own up to my faults (to a fault). Doing it here is nothing new


 I reposted this part before I took a break from your thread. I remember exactly what you posted. I asked what your IC said and that's all.




> I'm also extremely accountable and always have been. I own up to my faults (to a fault). Doing it here is nothing new. That I expect that from others and they constantly let me down in this regard is apparently a problem. My wife is extremely stubborn. That word has been tacked onto her from the moment I met her (in 1991). Someone who is accountable and expects that from others and someone who is stubborn, that's not a good mix.


Thanks, you have added more clarity.


----------



## gridcom

phillybeffandswiss said:


> So, she says you were abusive?


There is no doubt my actions before the affair would be considered abusive by almost anybody. No denying


----------



## jld

You are demonstrating accountability, grid. I said you were strong.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

gridcom said:


> There is no doubt my actions before the affair would be considered abusive by almost anybody. No denying





> I own up to my faults* (to a fault)*.


Gotcha. I have my answer and I will drop it. Thanks.


----------



## LongWalk

gridcom said:


> I you don't look like John Candy, I'd be bummed. When you type I hear his voice. If you changed your pic, you'd be less effective. DONT change the pic.


Gus has an amazing BS detector. When it pops up he sprays with wit like skunk in case anyone failed to notice the original stink.

Does you wife have any work out buddies, non toxic? She needs exercise.


----------



## gridcom

LongWalk said:


> Gus has an amazing BS detector. When it pops up he sprays with wit like skunk in case anyone failed to notice the original stink.
> 
> Does you wife have any work out buddies, non toxic? She needs exercise.


Most of her friends are non toxic. She just happens to be getting most of her advise from the one toxic friend she has, oddly enough. Her support system is actually an excellent cross section of wonderful people. They just arent very supportive of her in this situation

She's not a fan of sweating.


----------



## anchorwatch

Grid, take a break. It's almost game time anyhow...


----------



## gridcom

anchorwatch said:


> Grid, take a break. It's almost game time anyhow...


I know, and I have to go to a show for work. See ya


----------



## jld

gridcom said:


> Most of her friends are non toxic. She just happens to be getting most of her advise from the one toxic friend she has, oddly enough. Her support system is actually an excellent cross section of wonderful people. They just arent very supportive of her in this situation
> 
> She's not a fan of sweating.


She needs some support from someone who can empathize with her, and at the same time lead her back to her marriage. If everyone around her is criticizing her, of course she is going to go to the one high risk person who is not. 

It is like a kid being criticized at home for smoking. Feeling alienated, they meet a friend at school who is into drugs, and they join in. Hopping from the frying pan into the fire.

What if the parents had sat down and talked about the risks of smoking, maybe watched a documentary together, visited a lung cancer ward? The kid might take a different view of smoking, while still feeling loved by the parents. 

She needs emotional oxygen, grid. You are her husband. Could you give it to her?


----------



## bfree

gridcom said:


> Most of her friends are non toxic. She just happens to be getting most of her advise from the one toxic friend she has, oddly enough. Her support system is actually an excellent cross section of wonderful people. They just arent very supportive of her in this situation
> 
> She's not a fan of sweating.


Sadly the advice she should be listening to but is ignoring is the advice that could be most beneficial to her. She probably feels that all her other friends have abandoned her in her time of need because they refuse to condone her behavior.

You know, the more you talk about your wife the more hopeful I am that Retrouville will have a positive impact on her. It may not be enough to keep the marriage intact but it may be enough for her to recognize how damaging her actions have been. Perhaps she might even discover remorse.


----------



## TeddieG

gridcom said:


> Yep


That in and of itself should be a red flag about Mrs. Grid. Anyone who can't deal with assertive has a problem. There is a difference between assertive and aggressive. Aggressive is crossing into another person's space and crossing boundaries to get what they want. Assertive is saying what you need. 

Some people confuse the latter for the former, and that's probably a FOO issue.


----------



## Another Planet

gridcom said:


> Another thing my IC said was that my wife and I's goal should be to get to a place where the marriage is "good enough". She actually said that. She said, in our situation "good enough" which she described as making each other laugh, being honest, having sex, raising kids, and making plans to go places together, was better than being divorced. She said that if either one of us expects to have the kind of intensity and passion found earlier in our relationship, it isn't going to happen and the bar is set too high.
> 
> I should mention she is a marriage counselor who was recommended to me early on, but I decided to go to her alone. She is also an IC, but does both


Are you business partners or husband and wife? You should be able to live in a cardboard box and still be in love with each other.
And if you are business partners then she is terrible at it and you should go your separate ways...now, not later now.


----------



## Another Planet

jld said:


> I am sure she is ashamed of herself. Grid, if you did this, would you want to talk about it?
> 
> I am afraid without talking, she will never really get back into the marriage.
> 
> Grid, I know you are hurt, and you have every right to be.
> 
> Do you remember how the US treated Germany after WW2? The US could have crushed the German people, punished them severely for all the death and destruction they caused to so many other countries. But they did not.
> 
> They started to rebuild the country, gave food, helped them restart under peaceful conditions. And relations between the two countries became very good.
> 
> I know you are hurt. I know you cannot believe what she did to your trust in her, to everyone's trust in her. And that is totally understandable.
> 
> As hard as it would be, I do think if you could try to set those understandable feelings aside, and reach out to her in compassion, and help her rebuild, I think your marriage could become very good, very joyful and fulfilling. And yes, a loving, close, happy marriage is very much what I want for you and your wife.


:surprise: You are comparing rebuilding a nation after a war so we could manipulate their economy, people, and keep 50%of them under our thumb to a dudes wife ****n another man and purposely ruining their marriage?


----------



## jld

_Manipulate: to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage._

I see this word thrown around a lot, but I don't see anything artful, unfair, or insidious about grid's using empathy and humility to earn his wife's trust and begin the process of reconciliation.


----------



## just got it 55

jld said:


> I think a reconciliation could be a chance for them to grow, Bfree. While I am asking grid to be the leader, that does not mean his wife will not be responding. They will both need to look deep and hard at themselves. That usually brings about growth.
> 
> Divorce is expensive. Maintaining two separate households is expensive. Figuring out custody and covering child care is a pain. If all that can be avoided, why not try?


JLD maybe you should be addressing this to Mrs. Grid and not bfree

55


----------



## jld

Why, 55?


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> Why, 55?


Because she is in denial at the moment.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Because she is in denial at the moment.


 She has not looked at the financial consequences of divorce closely enough?

Yes, I would agree with that.


----------



## farsidejunky

Not just the financial aspects, JLD. Right now, based on what grid is saying, she sounds like she is hiding her head and waiting for it all to blow over; financial, infidelity, all of it.


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> _Manipulate: to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage._
> 
> I see this word thrown around a lot, but I don't see anything artful, unfair, or insidious about grid's using empathy and humility to earn his wife's trust and begin the process of reconciliation.


It's not the action itself that may be manipulative, it's the intention. If grid is demonstrating empathy toward his wife because his sole concern is her well being then it's not manipulation. If, however, he is using empathy and/or feigning humility to engender himself to her in a means toward an end then it is manipulation in my opinion. Many PUA's and "players" use this very technique to bed women. Less than honorable men have used these methods to begin affairs with married women. Some perhaps well meaning advisers suggest the same actions can be used to lead a woman back to the marriage or maybe just back to the marital bed. You might be accused of suggesting grid employ this path to play on Mrs grid's biological and societal drives and needs. It's all in the perception I suppose.


----------



## just got it 55

jld said:


> Why, 55?


If you posed your post to Mrs Grid.....What in your opinion would her response be and what do you think it should be?

Cause IMHO I don'd think she would respond honestly or positively.

She seems to have a sh!t ton of work to do.

I would sure love to hear from her Can anybody lead me to what page Mrs Grid posted on ?

Grid does too but he knows it and seems on the right track.

55


----------



## bfree

farsidejunky said:


> Not just the financial aspects, JLD. Right now, based on what grid is saying, she sounds like she is hiding her head and waiting for it all to blow over; financial, infidelity, all of it.


I was going to say that most of us would do the same thing if we were in a similar situation but I'll amend my statement to say that most people prone to infidelity would do the same thing in a similar situation. I think when one gets used to extensively compartmentalizing every aspect of their lives (necessary when in an affair) it's easy to put this adulterous fallout in a little box and bury it hoping it doesn't see the light of day again.


----------



## jld

bfree said:


> It's not the action itself that may be manipulative, it's the intention. If grid is demonstrating empathy toward his wife because his sole concern is her well being then it's not manipulation. If, however, he is using empathy and/or feigning humility to engender himself to her in a means toward an end then it is manipulation in my opinion. Many PUA's and "players" use this very technique to bed women. Less than honorable men have used these methods to begin affairs with married women. Some perhaps well meaning advisers suggest the same actions can be used to lead a woman back to the marriage or maybe just back to the marital bed. You might be accused of suggesting grid employ this path to play on Mrs grid's biological and societal drives and needs. It's all in the perception I suppose.


Bfree. Come on now.

Even the counselor has said they cannot afford a divorce. It is in their best interests to get this marriage back on track.

I don't see anything manipulative in humility and empathy. Even if they get divorced, they will co-parent better from a position of empathy and humility.

I never mentioned sex. Not sure how that got into this?


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Not just the financial aspects, JLD. Right now, based on what grid is saying, she sounds like she is hiding her head and waiting for it all to blow over; financial, infidelity, all of it.


She needs to face it. Some empathy could give her the courage, I think. Right now she likely feels all alone.


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> Bfree. Come on now.
> 
> Even the counselor has said they cannot afford a divorce. It is in their best interests to get this marriage back on track.
> 
> I don't see anything manipulative in humility and empathy. Even if they get divorced, they will co-parent better from a position of empathy and humility.
> 
> I never mentioned sex. Not sure how that got into this?


Yes but grid didn't file did he? He has no control over that process. There is nothing inherently wrong with humility and empathy unless as I said it is used against the person. If you were let's say at a bar bemoaning the fact that your husband doesn't "get you" and I offered myself up as an ear to bend would that be manipulative? Now what if my only reason was so I could bed you. If we were work colleagues and I "allowed" you to use me as a sounding board for your marital problems is it manipulation? What if my only reason for doing so was to alienate you from your husband so I could have you for myself. Some say that the same cannot be applied to married couples because they already share a bond (see Athol Kay.) Others contend that just because they chose to marry doesn't mean they have up their right to be an individual. As for how sex plays into it, again see Athol Kay.


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> She needs to face it. Some empathy could give her the courage, I think. Right now she likely feels all alone.


This is why my hopes are on Retrouville.


----------



## jld

just got it 55 said:


> If you posed your post to Mrs Grid.....What in your opinion would her response be and what do you think it should be?
> 
> Cause IMHO I don'd think she would respond honestly or positively.
> 
> She seems to have a sh!t ton of work to do.
> 
> I would sure love to hear from her Can anybody lead me to what page Mrs Grin posted on ?
> 
> Grid does too but he knows it and seems on the right track.
> 
> 55


To my knowledge, she has not posted.

I think she feels overwhelmed and alone. Going back to IC would help her. Just freeing free to talk to grid would help her. 

She needs to get things out. She is not going to do it if she does not feel safe. She needs someone compassionate to listen to her and through some empathy help her see that reconciliation is her best path.

Remember, she is coming down slowly off an emotional experience. It will take a little time, even with seeing the state of the finances. Patience, but persistence as well, will be required.


----------



## jld

bfree said:


> Yes but grid didn't file did he? He has no control over that process. There is nothing inherently wrong with humility and empathy unless as I said it is used against the person. If you were let's say at a bar bemoaning the fact that your husband doesn't "get you" and I offered myself up as an ear to bend would that be manipulative? Now what if my only reason was so I could bed you. If we were work colleagues and I "allowed" you to use me as a sounding board for your marital problems is it manipulation? What if my only reason for doing so was to alienate you from your husband so I could have you for myself. Some say that the same cannot be applied to married couples because they already share a bond (see Athol Kay.) Others contend that just because they chose to marry doesn't mean they have up their right to be an individual. As for how sex plays into it, again see Athol Kay.



I don't think grid is going to manipulate his wife. He may be reluctant to swallow his pride and reach out in empathy, but I am hoping he will humble himself and do it anyway.

The filing was a protective reaction to his threat.


----------



## jld

bfree said:


> This is why my hopes are on Retrouville.


I am hopeful, too. But grid could read about reaching out in empathy right now, too. 

Grid, you said you are reading the bible. Think about how Jesus treated the woman who had committed adultery. Actually, were there not two?

It was his compassion that moved people. They knew they had done wrong. Jesus helped them face it. He was truthful, but loving.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> I don't think grid is going to manipulate his wife. He may be reluctant to swallow his pride and reach out in empathy, but I am hoping he will humble himself and do it anyway.
> 
> The filing was a protective reaction to his threat.


There are many ways to manipulate. Grid tried to manipulate her back to the marriage by threatening to take away the money. Now your trying to manipulate the situation with your advice. No difference. Women manipulate men all the time with niceties. Favorite meal or sex. Its all about trying to control others to get them to do what you want. Clearly your goal. 

Your emotional attachment to a specific outcome is skewing you ability to think rationally. Any advisor or counselor who predetermines what's best isn't credible in my eyes. You act like you know what this woman thinks and that's ridiculous. Hell this may not even be her first affair. You don't know. 

What you are teaching Grid is no better than him trying to threaten her back to the marriage.

Grid needs to detach and get to 50,000 ft.


----------



## jld

jld said:


> _*Manipulate: to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage*._
> 
> I see this word thrown around a lot, but I don't see anything artful, unfair, or insidious about grid's using empathy and humility to earn his wife's trust and begin the process of reconciliation.


Again, the definition of manipulate.

And the counselor was very clear that they cannot afford a divorce.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> Again, the definition of manipulate.
> 
> And the counselor was very clear that they cannot afford a divorce.


Definition is spot on and that's what you are teaching.

Grid can't afford not to get divorced unless his wife has some sort
epiphany and completely reverses.


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> Definition is spot on and that's what you are teaching.
> 
> Grid can't afford not to get divorced unless his wife has some sort
> epiphany and completely reverses.


And you do not have an agenda? 

Nothing unfair, insidious, or artful in what I am telling him, BP. Empathy and humility will leave them happier co-parents if they do divorce.


----------



## ButtPunch

No I do not. Reconciliation or divorce I do not care and do not assume to know what's best. 

His ww isn't owning it and as long as this is the case its either divorce or limbo. Grid needs to
emotionally detach from his wife as she has him. He will then be able to think more rationally
and not let his fear and codependency make his decisions. In kind, this will give Mrs. G the space
she desires. They both need serious work on themselves before I think Reconciliation will even be
remotely possible.


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> No I do not.


Funny guy.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Jld: "butterflies are beautiful and if grid had the humility and humanity and honor to behave like a caterpillar then surely he and his wife would live happily ever after as winged friends in blissful peace. But Grid hadn't shown the compassion so his crushed, delicate wife can never get her wings "

Hmmmm kinda hard to argue with crazy I guess.


----------



## jld

It is not quite that fanciful, Truth.


----------



## turnera

gridcom said:


> a highly editorialized version of our relationship, although born out of some truth
> 
> I describe it as if Salt=Good and Pepper=Bad, then all she is giving people is a ton of Pepper


Whenever a cheater goes to IC afterward, I always tell the BS to go with them for one session, at least, so the IC knows what they are really dealing with.


----------



## ButtPunch

I am just relaying the advice I got here many moons ago that got me thru my ordeal.
No agenda. Back then any attempt to manipulate would be called out. Even the more
subtle use of the 180. They would say do the 180 for you not to win your wife back.


----------



## Another Planet

TheTruthHurts said:


> Jld: "butterflies are beautiful and if grid had the humility and humanity and honor to behave like a caterpillar then surely he and his wife would live happily ever after as winged friends in blissful peace. But Grid hadn't shown the compassion so his crushed, delicate wife can never get her wings "
> 
> Hmmmm kinda hard to argue with crazy I guess.


No kidding, it's sounding like Grids wife is the victim around here...screw that noise load of BS crap fart unicorns puke stuff.
She took another mans penis and shoved it in her vagina, in spite of her husband PERIOD


----------



## TheTruthHurts

It would be lovely if mrs Grid decided to rejoin the marriage. She hasn't. I fundamentally have a problem saying if they don't end up happily married then it's grids fault. Jld you may not even hear your message but without question that is exactly it.

My dad was a psychologist. I learned early on only a fool believes they control anything beyond their two ears. 

Of course as intelligent beings we like to ascribe causation when we see reactions and we tend to put ourselves at the center of the causation. But that is naïveté or hubris or id or whatever construct you can overlay on that type of thinking. Regardless, it doesn't make it true.

There is no obligation on Grids part to act or react in any particular fashion to the drivel that emits from the unfortunate mrs grid's mouth. His action and / or reaction does not cause a prior act or thought on mrs grids part to have occurred or not occurred.

For grid to pretend to have any control or influence on mrs grids feelings, emotions or mental state is rubbish. Mrs grid is an independent adult who completely owns her actions, reactions, feelings and thoughts.

jld you are not Rasputin and though I am certain your intentions are well meaning they are hurtful and manipulative and not founded in a framework that is healthy for an independent and strong Grid and mrs Grid.

Sorry to have to be so blunt but i have not yet seen a clearer case of consistent and persistent bad advice presented with absolute misguided sense of certainty in TAM.

Personally - I have no idea what mr or mrs grid should do but i know I would have parted ways 65 pages or so ago and just resigned myself to being sad for my loss and embraced my grief.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Btw this is not a personal attack on Jld but rather an appropriate rebuttal of her advice and frame of reference which I fear has undue influence on OP. My advice on the other hand, is probably read, then "meh" considered to a limited extent.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

jld said:


> Again, the definition of manipulate.
> 
> And the counselor was very clear that they cannot afford a divorce.


 When asked for clarification, his one off quote to you completely changed with the proper context. Yo do understand context is important? "Can't afford" in no way means "do not divorce."


----------



## LongWalk

If Mach were still here, he would tell Grid to get another wife because this one is no good. If Grid insisted that he wanted to reconcile, Mach would have told him to lift weights and build his upper body, change his clothes. If the man were clean shaven, it was tie to wear a beard. If he were bearded, now he had rub a new aftershave into his chin. Mach believed in PUA. 

When my father died this summer I was already on the road. When I got to the States, I had no suit or other suitable mourning clothes. I did not want to spend money. I went to Walmart and bought Black Wrangler jeans, a black polo shirt, black socks and even cheap black sneakers. I looked like a phoney Johnny Cash, but you know it worked. I had a cousin with me as an advisor. She works in television as a director she told me I looked right. Dressed entirely in Walmart funeral black I went to the airport with D17. She agreed that people actually treated me differently.It cost nothing and yet there you are. People respond to images. Manipulation.

My cousin who works in TV went shopping for an expensive pair of new glasses. She consciously wanted to make certain that she projected a certain look. Business. Tough. Decisive but with just enough empathy to be approachable if necessary. Crazy. But you know she is a good psychologist in daily life.

I might have mentioned this earlier in thread, but Mach spoke about the psychopharmacological effects of semen. Being in love and getting banged causes brain chemistry changes. Grid's wife is depressed. That is why modern medicine is so big on drugs to help people alter mood, fall asleep, etc. 

If instead of Retrouvaille, Grid and his family were in some harsh, hostile environment, the luxury of depression would vanish. Work killing animals and grilling them over a fire would weld the family together.

There was university recording studio sound engineer whose wife was on her way out the door. He actually accepted coaching by Mach and saved his marriage doing PUA stuff, but he also changed himself. Bagdon. Nice guy. Good thread.

jld is not entirely wrong. It may be that saying the right thing at the right moment could lift Mrs Grid up and give her hope and energy. But for Grid to know when this moment is, for him to have the strength and discernment to act, he needs to follow the BP line. He should do the 180. He needs to do it to survive this traumatic situation. If Mrs Grid wakes up and smells the coffee and does some work, he can consider R. But real R will not come from fakery.


----------



## happyman64

LongWalk said:


> HappyMan is reliable.
> 
> I don't know what he meant by "2nd hand friend" – is OM?
> 
> Both jld, who know how women feel, and HappyMan say that your wife is not out of the fog. This is true. Still, the good feelings that the affair gave her are not blocking out the pain and confusion. Confusion because her life is a fvcking mess and pain because she cannot enjoy the physical and emotional pleasure that she had before Dday. Your pain causes her guilt but not empathy. Your love irritates because it has ruined the affair. Instead of remorse, she is stirring round a mixture regret, blame and self pity. In this sense jld is right that you need to hang on to loving her and forgiving her because she has very little to offer. You got one pity fvck. And when is she going to offer something genuine to please you? And here I don't mean sex. When is she going to say that you are the father of her children. That these two girls are good and beautiful and for them you get a warm hug, even if divorce is still the path you must go.
> 
> When my marriage was collapsing my wife said with dripping venom that I was a sh*tty father. She said it to hurt me because I was st*tty husband. A moment later she said was sorry and offered me a bj. I was up for that. But I was too dumb to fix myself and save my marriage. It takes to time understand. When people have poor coping skills, they avoid making healthy choices. They believe that failure is their due. Your wife has filed for divorce because she believes that things might get better but if they don't she deserved it anyway. Losing becomes winning. She punishes herself and your daughters because she deserves it. Insane, right?
> 
> But how else can you explain her trip to the wedding with an appliance bought on credit as her marriage was collapsing. She was celebrating another couple's commitment to a lifetime of not banging other people so that they kids would have peaceful home. That weekend was an escape. She was not ready for a weekend concert with you then. Retrouvaille is even a challenge. Ironic that this upcoming critical night sleeping in the church and looking at the faces of other people in pain will not cost much more than the blender.
> 
> I think that jld's tactics are wrong. BP developed ace tactics – he saved his marriage the only way he could – by doing his half. You can only do your half. You have given your wife a grace period to get to Retrouvaille. She ought to be grateful. Imagine if your work had connected you with some cute, attractive younger woman who for whatever reason decided you belonged in her bed. And suppose your wife discovered that not only had cute OW succeeded, she continued to patiently cast her lure out to get you back, would your wife accept you going to the office to see her everyday? If you were cheating and had even filed for divorce, would your wife be cool with that?
> 
> If your wife is serious about Retrouvaille, she ought to seriously seek other employment. I am afraid that if your wife simply quits work, she may come unglued because she'll have too much idle time on her hands.


2nd hand friend is the woman assisting Grids wife with the divorce.


----------



## LongWalk

HappyMan,

A woman has felt alone and unappreciated in her marriage, has even been verbally brutalized by her husband. She gets the youngest daughter off to school. Has a new job. Feels more independent. Though more sure of herself in some ways, she is not really 100 percent. In truth she feels quite weak inside. Along comes the sympathetic OM. He likes her for who she is as a person. They become friends. He wastes little time in pushing the relationship forward. At last he scores – it did not take too long – and she was more than willing. They are in love as it sounds in an early Beatles song. The happiness in secret goes on longer than the woman felt that it could go undetected. Hiding made the love less worthy. The illicit couple wanted dignity for their love. Perhaps it was more the woman than the man who felt this.

She asked him is she were too old. He swore it had never entered his mind.

In the back of his mind, the warning light kept flashing. This woman, this love had children and would sooner or later deliver an angry husband into the world. An angry Italian American husband might be dangerous, you know. Against the man's better judgment he promised the woman he would be there for her after the divorce. He meant it. Still, he felt his bowels clench.

The woman's principles won out in the end. She told her husband, who was stunned. The woman could only repeat that she was leaving for her lover. Paul Simon said there were 50 ways to do this. Yet none of them would do. Her husband clung to her. She had to use an invisible force field to repel him. The husband beat the lover off. The couple hid their love again but continued to declare that it was forever.

The woman had hoped that her husband would divorce her and drive her out. But he refused, so she did it for herself. Unfortunately, there was no money to finance separation and divorce. The lover lost some of his shine. The woman was caught between two men who both failed to meet her needs. She sank into depression and apathy. Those who advised her could not make her lover rich and tough. Nor could they make her husband clean of her affair. If he controlled her, he reminded her of the man whom she had escaped. If he were sad and confused, that reminded her that her affair was the reason he was flattened. She wanted him to forget the affair and go on with life, although the life that been going on was now over. 

Thoughts of self harm entered her head. She knew she could not betray her children. She ached for a miracle. 

My question is how long before she comes out of this funk?

Can a husband take back a wayward wife without knowing the extent of the affair?

If a husband forgives a wife before she experiences remorse, is he cheating her of an essential part of the healing process?


----------



## ThreeStrikes

jld said:


> Empathy and humility


Character traits. It always comes back to that.

If they don't have them now, they aren't going to magically acquire them later.

A significant portion of society does not have the ability to feel empathy. And that population of non-empaths continues to grow.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

jld said:


> Even the counselor has said they cannot afford a divorce. It is in their best interests to get this marriage back on track.


They are both broke now. 

They will both be broke if they divorce. 

They will both be broke if they stay together in the future.

If they D, they can each focus on their individual finances and recover.

If the R, they can focus on their finances together and recover.

Finances are a non-issue. Let's stop grasping at straws.


----------



## just got it 55

JDL’s advice is entirely appropriate after Mrs.Grid has asked for and granted forgiveness by Grid .
It is then when the A should be put in the rear view mirror and both move forward with healing and trust rebuilding.

I believe Grid has asked for forgiveness.If it were truly granted Mrs.Grid would be acting very differently with at the very least EFFORT

JDL lets please not put the cart before the horse

If you want this to work for both of them it has to work for Grid too. Eating a sh!t sandwich will only cause resentment,and feed his anger fear and frustration.

Not only can you not think like a Man you can’t think like a BS or WS

Grid just back off and be the best man and father you can be. Fix you finances, then work your way out of limbo. 

R or D

You have nothing to lose but time. At least under that plan you still have your children under your roof.

If Mrs.Grid is serious about fixing anything she has to at least work a full time job.(as an unintended consequence she leaves her current job)

You can both lead the way to financial solvency. In a real marriage (JDL) there are no leaders or followers. There is one team with one goal. BTW 70 K is not insurmountable debt.

Fixing your finances is priority one. As this is critical to the security of your entire family.
I have often said our countries most serious threat to our security is not Russia China Iran N Korea it actually our debt.

Just as a practical matter focus on debt.You and Mrs Grid can grow a partnership for the security of your family .Make the tough choices together.

55


----------



## Sammy64

Satya said:


> You can't put a price on your dignity.


:iagree:
PERFECT!!!!!


----------



## happy as a clam

Since when are counselors "financial experts"? IMHO, the counselor's comment that they cannot afford a divorce is much more rhetorical, and not an actual declaration that they must stay married.

70 grand is a lot of money, but I've personally seen people dig their way out of far more debt than that and go on to be financially solvent and secure.

They could work with a consumer credit agency and probably get some or much of the debt discharged, especially if it is credit card debt. They could consolidate it all into one loan. Take out a second mortgage. Declare bankruptcy.

There are plenty of ways out of this rat maze of debt. Staying in a sick marriage because it is "too expensive" to get out seems like a terrible solution.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

TheTruthHurts said:


> It would be lovely if mrs Grid decided to rejoin the marriage. She hasn't. I fundamentally have a problem saying if they don't end up happily married then it's grids fault. Jld you may not even hear your message but without question that is exactly it.
> 
> My dad was a psychologist. I learned early on only a fool believes they control anything beyond their two ears.
> 
> Of course as intelligent beings we like to ascribe causation when we see reactions and we tend to put ourselves at the center of the causation. But that is naïveté or hubris or id or whatever construct you can overlay on that type of thinking. Regardless, it doesn't make it true.
> 
> There is no obligation on Grids part to act or react in any particular fashion to the drivel that emits from the unfortunate mrs grid's mouth. His action and / or reaction does not cause a prior act or thought on mrs grids part to have occurred or not occurred.
> 
> For grid to pretend to have any control or influence on mrs grids feelings, emotions or mental state is rubbish. Mrs grid is an independent adult who completely owns her actions, reactions, feelings and thoughts.
> 
> jld you are not Rasputin and though I am certain your intentions are well meaning they are hurtful and manipulative and not founded in a framework that is healthy for an independent and strong Grid and mrs Grid.
> 
> Sorry to have to be so blunt but i have not yet seen a clearer case of consistent and persistent bad advice presented with absolute misguided sense of certainty in TAM.
> 
> Personally - I have no idea what mr or mrs grid should do but i know I would have parted ways 65 pages or so ago and just resigned myself to being sad for my loss and embraced my grief.


I completely disagree with the idea that grid has no influence on his wife. Control? Maybe not. I hope he does not. But influence? Absolutely.

Grid is a strong guy to come here and read the various points of view. A variety of views is the point of a forum, after all.

Yes, I hold grid responsible for this marriage. That is my view. I think he is much stronger than his wife, at least at the current time, and I think he has a moral obligation to use that strength in the best interests of his family. To me that includes not only staying married, but pursuing a genuine reconciliation. And I think genuine reconciliation starts with humility and empathy.

Did you see how honest and upfront grid was about being abusive to her? 

That was impressive. Not many BHs have been that honest with themselves and us here on TAM, at least as I recall. Even on this thread many have tried to minimize any abuse on grid's part. 

But to grid's credit, he stood up like a man and owned it. I bet Mrs. Grid, if she read that, is impressed. You can trust a man who owns up to his faults.

As far as any influence I have on grid . . . I don't think he listens to me any more than he listens to anyone else. I am one voice among many. An anonymous voice in an anonymous crowd.


----------



## EVG39

Grid,
I hesitate to wander into this thread at all but I wanted to give you a bit of advice from a different perspective. Unsolicited, free legal advice is usually worth what you pay for it but I couldn't keep reading without weighing in.
I know you have a lawyer. Has he/she mentioned the "B" word yet, as in bankruptcy? Now I know I have probably offended you and about half the board's sense of morality but bankruptcy needs to be on the table. My gut tells me that is where you are heading anyway, especially if you two get divorced. And if you get divorced let me tell you there is no doubt in mind that she will then file for bankruptcy. So forewarned is forearmed so to speak. Now let me preface this with the fact that I never practiced in New York State, but in most states it makes more sense for the parties to actually file bankruptcy first and then divorce. It especially makes sense for the party to the divorce that is likely to be ordered to pick up the lion's share of the debt (sorry partner, that's you) to file bankruptcy first. It does a couple things, one obviously it gives you the fresh start you need to rebuild your life but also since you and your wife have effectively dealt with much of the debt (and some of the assets) there is less to fight over in the divorce. And thus less legal fees. In fact the bankruptcy becomes the building block of the separation agreement. Talk to your lawyer about this, ask him/her this question "Suppose I get divorced and the Judge orders me to pay the debts. If I find out I can't pay them can I then file bankruptcy and get out from under my obligation to pay the debts like the Judge ordered?" Make sure you word it exactly like that. Then go down the street to a bankruptcy lawyer and ask the same question. Compare and Contrast.
Secondly, even if you don't want to go the bankruptcy route, you can still work with a mediator. Its not an either or prospect, divorce or mediation. All a mediator does is help you and your wife settle some or all of this issues of your divorce. Matter of fact if your lawyers haven't sent you guys to a mediator by the time you attend your first pretrial hearing, the judge will likely order you to attend a mediation session. Then you have lost time and money by not going. So again, if you don't want to look at bankruptcy check into you and your wife going to a mediator on your own. You don't need anyone's permission to do that. But first make sure you and she fully understand the lay of the land regarding all assets and debts. You don't want to spend your session fighting over how much the Visa bill is. 
Oh and by the way, her friend at her lawyer's office is toxic in a myriad of ways. I know the type. Torpedo that any way you can.
So there you go. Do with this advice what you will. I know you are hoping for a reconciliation and my advice is all about divorce. But you need to have this information in your back pocket regardless of which way you go.
Do know that either way things work out, I am rooting for you. And so are lots of other people.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> As far as any influence I have on grid . . . I don't think he listens to me any more than he listens to anyone else. I am one voice among many. An anonymous voice in an anonymous crowd.


That's ridiculous. If that were the case, Grid would be knee deep in the 180 because that is what everyone else besides you is telling him.


----------



## jld

If I were the kind of influence on grid you somehow think I am, he would be knee deep in active listening and other attempts at using empathy and leadership to restore a relationship.

I think he reads the replies, takes what works for him, and leaves the rest. As we all should.


----------



## TeddieG

Grid, I think EVG39 is right on. I always wondered why you kept saying that mediation should happen before the divorce or without a divorce filing. It is common for divorcing couples to go to mediation AFTER the divorce is filed and a response has also been filed, as a way to work out agreements over property and debt. This is done so the judge doesn't have to divide it all in the case where there's no agreement. 

And I believe you brought up the possibility of bankruptcy before on this thread, posing it as possibility. I'm not sure anyone responded positively or negatively, so it is good that EVG39 has advised you on it. 

Good luck.


----------



## LongWalk

jld,

Grid has done a great deal to try and save their marriage. Mrs Grid may be interested in saving their marriage but only on her terms. By filing for divorce she has clearly declared that she is in command as the person in the relationship who wants it least. If she does desire reconciliation, she has increased the pressure on Grid to accept a relationship based on rug sweeping.

If she offers to withdraw the divorce petition in exchange for Grid agreeing not to discuss it ever again, how strong will their marriage be?

Do you recommend that he do this? Should he proactively tell her that bygones should bygones and that he will not mention the affair or OM anymore?

If Grid brings up bankruptcy and she jumps at the idea, that will say a lot about her lack of commitment.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> If I were the kind of influence on grid you somehow think I am, he would be knee deep in active listening and other attempts at using empathy and leadership to restore a relationship.
> 
> I think he reads the replies, takes what works for him, and leaves the rest. As we all should.


Grid is listening to you. They always do because they want to feel like they are doing something to save their marriage. You give them a path where they think they are fighting to save their families and thus giving them hope.

What I am saying is to let go and focus on himself and his girls. Forget about the wife. It's counterintuitive. Here he feels he's giving up but it is really not the case. 

So he gravitates to you like the BS does most of the time. You tell him if he does this and that his wife will feel safe and come back to him and* you cannot possibly know that.*. 

I am tired of fighting this fight with you and have got to back off from this thread as it is taking up way too much of my time. Grid is gonna do what Grid is gonna do. I'm very busy and only come here because people here on TAM helped me when I needed help.

JLD....I am glad you were not there to give me advice years ago because I would have jumped on it and ignored all the experienced posters. Hope is powerful. It got one man with very little experience all the way to Presidency.

Grid as my last request please read the books I suggested.


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> I don't think grid is going to manipulate his wife. He may be reluctant to swallow his pride and reach out in empathy, but I am hoping he will humble himself and do it anyway.
> 
> The filing was a protective reaction to his threat.


I'm curious about something and since you mentioned it I'm going to use your post as a jumping off point.

My wife knows me very well. Sometimes I can be a tad bombastic so she knows while I mean what I say I might just be saying something as an emotional response and I might not follow through with every detail. It's kind of like the person who says "I'm going to kill you." You know they're angry and you know they're really not going to kill you. I'm sure grid's wife knows him as well. I'm sure she has heard him make idle threats in the past. It's not a desirable trait I'll grant you but him reacting this way is most likely not unfamiliar to her. So why now does she all of a sudden take him seriously and respond to another likely idle threat with a divorce petition? Grid has already been very candid that he has thrown out the word divorce on occasion during heated arguments. Why didn't she file then? Why now all of a sudden? I can only surmise that filing for divorce is something she well and truly wanted to do and simply used grid's latest outburst as justification to do so. I'm not criticizing her for that decision. If she truly wants a divorce then so be it. But I think this is just another indication to me that grid's wife is not merely reacting to things going on around her. I think she has her own mind, makes her own decisions and will chart her course according to whatever she desires.


----------



## jld

LongWalk said:


> jld,
> 
> Grid has done a great deal to try and save their marriage. Mrs Grid may be interested in saving their marriage but only on her terms. By filing for divorce she has clearly declared that she is in command as the person in the relationship who wants it least. If she does desire reconciliation, she has increased the pressure on Grid to accept a relationship based on rug sweeping.
> 
> If she offers to withdraw the divorce petition in exchange for Grid agreeing not to discuss it ever again, how strong will their marriage be?
> 
> Do you recommend that he do this? Should he proactively tell her that bygones should bygones and that he will not mention the affair or OM anymore?
> 
> If Grid brings up bankruptcy and she jumps at the idea, that will say a lot about her lack of commitment.


He should not rugsweep anything! Transparency is essential! 

We will not grow if we are not brutally honest with ourselves. Other people can help us with that, to the extent we trust their judgment.

But not everything has to be said in the first minute of a discussion. And *seeking to understand comes before seeking to be understood.*

If I thought Mrs. Grid were acting in her full mental and emotional capacity, I would view this situation differently. But she is not. She is acting out of the fog of her affair, clouded by years of grid's abuse.

Yet everyone else seems to want to hold her to the same standards as appropriate for someone in a fully capable, independent emotional and mental state. That is just setting her, and the marriage, up for failure.

Does she need to own her mistakes? Yes! 

Does grid deserve her utter remorse and to hear her unconditional begging pardon for her betrayal? Yes!

Does she need to commit to fidelity for the rest of her marriage? Yes!

And grid obviously needs, where appropriate, to do the same. A leader leads by example, after all. A true leader inspires trust.

I think grid knows in his heart this marriage can be saved, but the cost is his taking the leadership position, the first steps, with humility and empathy. And that is hard to do when we feel we are the victim.

But I am confident that if he were to pursue that path, truly reaching out to his wife with empathy, humility, patience and persistence, Mrs. Grid would follow. How could she resist a man with such integrity?


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> He should not rugsweep anything! Transparency is essential!
> 
> We will not grow if we are not brutally honest with ourselves. Other people can help us with that, to the extent we trust their judgment.
> 
> But not everything has to be said in the first minute of a discussion. And *seeking to understand comes before seeking to be understood.*
> 
> If I thought Mrs. Grid were acting in her full mental and emotional capacity, I would view this situation differently. But she is not. She is acting out of the fog of her affair, clouded by years of grid's abuse.
> 
> Yet everyone else seems to want to hold her to the same standards as appropriate for someone in a fully capable, independent emotional and mental state. That is just setting her, and the marriage, up for failure.


But aren't you doing the same thing? Aren't you holding grid fully accountable for his recent mistakes without taking into consideration the emotional agony he is experiencing? Aren't you holding grid to a standard that only an individual in a "fully capable, independent emotional and mental state" should be held to? I truly value your advice. It's some of the best I've ever read on TAM. But this is where your lack of experience dealing with infidelity comes into play. You truly do not know the devastation infidelity wreaks on not only the betrayed but the betrayer as well. Grid's heart has been torn out of his chest. Shouldn't we expect that he's going to bleed?


----------



## LongWalk

jld,

if Grid and his wife won a million dollars in the lottery or inherited $400,000 from Aunt Lydia, do you think it would help them to reconcile or divorce?


----------



## Evinrude58

jld said:


> He should not rugsweep anything! Transparency is essential!
> 
> We will not grow if we are not brutally honest with ourselves. Other people can help us with that, to the extent we trust their judgment.
> 
> But not everything has to be said in the first minute of a discussion. And *seeking to understand comes before seeking to be understood.*
> 
> If I thought Mrs. Grid were acting in her full mental and emotional capacity, I would view this situation differently. But she is not. She is acting out of the fog of her affair, clouded by years of grid's abuse.
> 
> Yet everyone else seems to want to hold her to the same standards as appropriate for someone in a fully capable, independent emotional and mental state. That is just setting her, and the marriage, up for failure.
> 
> Does she need to own her mistakes? Yes!
> 
> Does grid deserve her utter remorse and to hear her unconditional begging pardon for her betrayal? Yes!
> 
> Does she need to commit to fidelity for the rest of her marriage? Yes!
> 
> And grid obviously needs, where appropriate, to do the same. A leader leads by example, after all. A true leader inspires trust.
> 
> I think grid knows in his heart this marriage can be saved, but the cost is his taking the leadership position, the first steps, with humility and empathy. And that is hard to do when we feel we are the victim.
> 
> But I am confident that if he were to pursue that path, truly reaching out to his wife with empathy, humility, patience and persistence, Mrs. Grid would follow. *How could she resist a man with such integrity?*


So Mrs. Grid is attracted to people with INTEGRITY??? That's laughable.


----------



## happy as a clam

LongWalk said:


> jld,
> 
> if Grid and his wife won a million dollars in the lottery or inherited $400,000 from Aunt Lydia, do you think it would help them to reconcile or divorce?


Well I'm not jld, but I think Mrs. Grid would be outta there in a heartbeat.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Another Planet

bfree said:


> I'm curious about something and since you mentioned it I'm going to use your post as a jumping off point.
> 
> My wife knows me very well. Sometimes I can be a tad bombastic so she knows while I mean what I say I might just be saying something as an emotional response and I might not follow through with every detail. It's kind of like the person who says "I'm going to kill you." You know they're angry and you know they're really not going to kill you. I'm sure grid's wife knows him as well. I'm sure she has heard him make idle threats in the past. It's not a desirable trait I'll grant you but him reacting this way is most likely not unfamiliar to her. So why now does she all of a sudden take him seriously and respond to another likely idle that with a divorce petition? Grid has already been very candid that he has thrown out the word divorce on occasion during heated arguments. Why didn't she file then? Why now all of a sudden? I can only surmise that filing for divorce is something she well and truly wanted to do and simply used grid's latest outburst as justification to do so. I'm not criticizing her for that decision. If she truly wants a divorce then so be it. But I think this is just another indication to me that grid's wife is not merely reacting to things going on around her. I think she has her own mind, makes her own decisions and will chart her course according to whatever she desires.


I will tell a story for an example of what may be going on with her actions or apparent lack of action.

The last two years of my marriage my wife had pulled away emotionally, physically, spiritually, directional, whatever... That did enough emotional abuse to me that I had covertly researched and filed for divorce. For reasons unknown to me until later she seemed to start coming back to me, still not 100% but she was coming back. Unfortunately or fortunately however you want to see I had already filed and was damaged enough to keep going forward with the divorce. Then comes the truth.....
The reason why she pulled away from me in the first place was because she had started an affair with her BFF husband, they arranged detailed plans about their future lives together and plans for the future. She got pregnant, he got cold feet, she got an abortion, then that is when she started coming back to me...but not 100% in typical cake eater fashion because she still kept OM secretly on the back burner waiting for his possible return and the commencing of their future plans.
End result was I found out about the affair and then their plans, kicked her ass to the curb. OM and BFF went ghost mode on her. I ended up with around $50k+- of debt solely on me, worth every penny for the negotiated 50/50 custody. 

Point of the story(sorry so long) is people are fvcking liars and all that matters are their actions and the intent behind their actions. And that you can like me ditch the POS cake eater and you will survive as many of us have.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

ButtPunch said:


> That's ridiculous. If that were the case, Grid would be knee deep in the 180 because that is what everyone else besides you is telling him.


He has repeatedly defended, praised and said jld is like his wife. He is also consistently posting what he has done and it has mainly followed her advice.

If anything, his wife is confused because he is running hot and cold. He does what jld suggests, his wife does what she wants and he loses patience by temporarily following the counter jld advice. Hopefully, the IC will help him navigate better.


----------



## turnera

Another Planet said:


> I will tell a story for an example of what may be going on with her actions or apparent lack of action.
> 
> The last two years of my marriage my wife had pulled away emotionally, physically, spiritually, directional, whatever... That did enough emotional abuse to me that I had covertly researched and filed for divorce.
> 
> Point of the story(sorry so long) is people are fvcking liars and all that matters are their actions and the intent behind their actions.


To be fair, it's not always because of an affair. I have pulled away from my H in all those ways...because of HIM. He has disappointed me in so many ways that I find it hard to be attracted to him any more. He is FINALLY - finally! - getting it, really listening to what it feels like to be married to him, seeing I AM serious, and doing the things I've been asking for for 30 years. 

But I'm not going to just jump into his arms because he finally gets it. If I had money, I'd be gone. But I'm stuck with him, for at least the next few years as I drag us out of this debt he (mostly) created. Will he be able to turn me around on him before we get financially solvent? Not sure. 

So if she is THAT unhappy with him because of the verbal abuse and whatnot, it's VERY unlikely that she will just wake up tomorrow and say 'wow! you're great now! I'm crazy about you!' Today, when she looks at him, she sees an accumulation of pain. And resentment. And skepticism. That stuff, especially with women, takes a LONG time to go away, and only when replaced with better behavior.

So to expect her to just say 'wow, I'm sorry I cheated cos yurdabest!' is totally unrealistic. As LongWalk has said, she's a mess. NOTHING in her life is all that great. So we can say she should be kissing his boots all we want and feel good about ourselves for saying it, but it's just not realistic psychologically.

It's clear she was ripe for an affair at least partly because of her home environment, and it's clear such people easily fall into them, needing the feel-good it gives. So categorizing her as some slvt is nonproductive.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

I think it's pretty clear a lot of people like and respect JLD but think she is talking out of her a55 when it comes to her magical belief that grid can somehow "reveal" his amazing, thoughtful, blah blah blah nature and mrs grid will swoon and become a 1950's doting wife who looks up to him as her emotional leader.

Well I judge people by their actions and I have seen jld completely ignore the facts of this situation and stick to her belief system which is rooted in her limited experience. So to me I see someone who is following THEIR OWN agenda and insisting on a fantasy reading of the situation.

Given that a man, wife and child are relying on quality advice to overcome their tremendous grief, this behavior of jld is horrible and in no way positive IMO.

So I don't share the positive feelings about jld when it comes to infidelity advice. Quite the opposite - I see hubris and bad intent and wishful thinking that are all terribly harmful. And I see someone with limited self awareness and introspection on this point. Pretty ironic actually...


Personally since have as much infidelity experience as jld I'll refrain from offering advice on how grid should deal with his wife. My comments were about what grid can do for himself.


----------



## Another Planet

turnera said:


> To be fair, it's not always because of an affair. I have pulled away from my H in all those ways...because of HIM. He has disappointed me in so many ways that I find it hard to be attracted to him any more. He is FINALLY - finally! - getting it, really listening to what it feels like to be married to him, seeing I AM serious, and doing the things I've been asking for for 30 years.
> 
> But I'm not going to just jump into his arms because he finally gets it. If I had money, I'd be gone. But I'm stuck with him, for at least the next few years as I drag us out of this debt he (mostly) created. Will he be able to turn me around on him before we get financially solvent? Not sure.
> 
> So if she is THAT unhappy with him because of the verbal abuse and whatnot, it's VERY unlikely that she will just wake up tomorrow and say 'wow! you're great now! I'm crazy about you!' Today, when she looks at him, she sees an accumulation of pain. And resentment. And skepticism. That stuff, especially with women, takes a LONG time to go away, and only when replaced with better behavior.
> 
> So to expect her to just say 'wow, I'm sorry I cheated cos yurdabest!' is totally unrealistic. As LongWalk has said, she's a mess. NOTHING in her life is all that great. So we can say she should be kissing his boots all we want and feel good about ourselves for saying it, but it's just not realistic psychologically.
> 
> It's clear she was ripe for an affair at least partly because of her home environment, and it's clear such people easily fall into them, needing the feel-good it gives. So categorizing her as some slvt is nonproductive.


Which is why I rarely rarely support reconciliation. His trust was betrayed, your trust was betrayed and if you can say today that you have enough pain in your heart that it is to much to bare to be 100% anytime soon just get it over with. Why wait? Move on, you can always get back together in the future OR not and go on your merry way without each other hurting one another anymore.

ONLY time I have even been remotely satisfied with reconciliation stories is when the cheating party does basically grovel on their knees to the betrayed spouse. If they can't do that they don't have enough respect for a relationship and honestly the chances of it happening again I see as very high.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Grid - I got a book from the library and found it to be a super easy read and it gave me amazing insight. I highly recommend you spend an hour or two at the library at least snanning it.

I spilled coffee on mine so had to buy it from the library.

His needs her needs.

Sounds like every horrible chick flick I know "four weddings and a funeral", "Bridget jones' diary" etc. but actually it's not.

What got me - and I to all the guys at work this - is that call or text you get at work just before a meeting or during a deadline - is just as important to her as sex is to you. Mind blowing! So you take a couple of minutes, send an emoji smiley and listen to her issue... And that's it! She wants to touch you is all - poke and see if you're there for her and can listen. Just like you just need the touch and attention of sex. It's not groping and getting your rocks off its you reaching out to her.

So this really helped my wife and I discuss this. Very high on most women's needs is financial sexurity. So I put the texting, talking and finance in the same bucket as marital sex in importance.

Anyway it will help in this and any other relationship you end up in.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Honestly Grid, Turnera gives great advice, but sometimes it hits too close to home for her. I hate to say it, as it will derail your thread, Turnera has perfect examples and insight into what you have to prepare for, if you reconcile because of debt and kids IMO.This is not an insult. I have constantly wondered why she is still married. In the last year, she has really opened up. 

Please pay close attention to these words:


> But I'm not going to just jump into his arms because he finally gets it. If I had money, I'd be gone. But I'm stuck with him, for at least the next few years as I drag us out of this debt he (mostly) created. Will he be able to turn me around on him before we get financially solvent? Not sure.


 Replace abuse with affair and you may have the same feeling as well. No, I am not getting into a debate about abuse=affair, IMO one is way worse. Still, the ramifications and damage to your marriage are the same, one or both of you will be resentful and it will affect your kids.


----------



## bfree

I think grid is extremely wise to listen to jld. If reconciliation is the path they both decide to take together then her advice will not only be invaluable it may be the best advice he will ever receive. But grid is also wise enough to wait to see a commitment from his wife. Because without that commitment he is just spitting in the wind. Mrs grid is lost. She is making decisions that hurt everyone including herself. And as grid's mother said she is dead wood right now. Until that changes he can't do much of anything. Jld's advice is not wrong. It's just mis-timed

Edit

In fact I'm going to add that even if Grid and his wife divorce jld's advice will help grid succeed in his future relationships.


----------



## LongWalk

Grid has followed his own inclination for reconciliation. Jld has been a voice that sympathized with his desire. Grid is not a naive guy. At this point he sees many difficulties ahead. Given the way things are going, he is rightly far less optimistic. Even accepting divorce he trying to fix things, e.g., to get his wife on her feet economically. Jld did not influence these decisions. He did them and reported their failure after the fact.

I don't think Grid's behavior is all that mysterious to his wife. She knows what makes him tick pretty well. 

Mrs Grid has a love-hate relationship with her husband. One thing that she wants is more justice for both real and imagined wrongs. Though she may feel guilt at times, she is not remorseful. No doubt she feels some shame because female chastity is a virtue that she no longer can claim. But men and women can live with exposure, especially today. The celebrity culture – much beloved and trusted athletes and actors cheat on each other, fight over custody, abuse drugs and alcohol, etc. – and many people are jealous that they don't have such exciting and fulfilling lives.

Mrs Grid has been the star of her own private TV show, to steal a line from the song.

As someone earlier pointed out, Grid has yet to present any indication that she is capable of empathy. Some people are not very empathetic; they always make decisions based on self interest. Hence her stubbornness. 

Two cards Mrs Grid is holding close to her chest are what she and OM discussed in terms of the future together. That topic naturally would force her to reveal a more truthful account of the affair. She feels that she has been shamed enough. Retrouvaille may give her an opportunity break the current stand off. She has a better chance of being more forthcoming there.

As Bfree and jld suggest, Grid can hold on for awhile, at least until Retrouvaille.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

bfree said:


> Jld's advice is not wrong. It's just mis-timed


Semantics. 

This comment applies to every post in this thread and all over this website. Just like when people say divorce and poster say they are *wrong* it is too early. Ill-timed advice can be wrong.


----------



## manfromlamancha

Actually starting to understand more about JLD's advice and approach. However, I am not sure if it will work. It will only work if she is absolutely right about Mrs Grid (which is what I am not sure about).

If Mrs Grid is as lost as JLD thinks she is, then I can see Grid being a strong husband and listening actively etc as helping the marriage back to where it needs to be. However, if Mrs Grid is quite deliberate and clear headed about what she wants and is simply buying time to finalise her own plan of action, then JLD's approach could backfire on Grid with devastating effect.

So really trying to read Mrs Grid is impossible for all of us here, hence resorting to the safer, time tested approach of 180, scorched earth etc for any kind of cheating.

JLD on the other hand is trying out a new (at least for many of us here) approach with recovering a marriage (which she believes is recoverable) being the prime goal. And this is based on a hurt, confused yet errant wife and a strong husband capable of rising above it all. Any other scenario and it would fail.


----------



## bfree

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Semantics.


Perception

C'mon, I'm trying to build bridges here...:wink2:


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

A bridge to another derail.


----------



## gridcom

LongWalk said:


> If she offers to withdraw the divorce petition in exchange for Grid agreeing not to discuss it ever again, how strong will their marriage be?
> 
> Do you recommend that he do this? Should he proactively tell her that bygones should bygones and that he will not mention the affair or OM anymore?


There is absolutely zero percent of this happening. None.


----------



## gridcom

ButtPunch said:


> Grid is listening to you. They always do because they want to feel like they are doing something to save their marriage. You give them a path where they think they are fighting to save their families and thus giving them hope.
> 
> What I am saying is to let go and focus on himself and his girls. Forget about the wife. It's counterintuitive. Here he feels he's giving up but it is really not the case.
> 
> So he gravitates to you like the BS does most of the time. You tell him if he does this and that his wife will feel safe and come back to him and* you cannot possibly know that.*.
> 
> I am tired of fighting this fight with you and have got to back off from this thread as it is taking up way too much of my time. Grid is gonna do what Grid is gonna do. I'm very busy and only come here because people here on TAM helped me when I needed help.
> 
> JLD....I am glad you were not there to give me advice years ago because I would have jumped on it and ignored all the experienced posters. Hope is powerful. It got one man with very little experience all the way to Presidency.
> 
> Grid as my last request please read the books I suggested.


I am not clinging to every word jld says. I think she does accurately and more effectively relays the opinion of my wife. Like she said, I am listening to all advise and forming my own opinion. If anyone thinks I am zoning everyone else out but jld, you're wrong. That doesn't mean there isn't some valid points coming from her. To the extent that I have yet to give my wife any breathing room. And maybe with a little breathing room, my wife will respond the way you've all been demanding she respond, AND I AM ALSO DEMANDING she respond.


----------



## gridcom

jld said:


> He should not rugsweep anything! Transparency is essential!
> 
> We will not grow if we are not brutally honest with ourselves. Other people can help us with that, to the extent we trust their judgment.
> 
> But not everything has to be said in the first minute of a discussion. And *seeking to understand comes before seeking to be understood.*
> 
> If I thought Mrs. Grid were acting in her full mental and emotional capacity, I would view this situation differently. But she is not. She is acting out of the fog of her affair, clouded by years of grid's abuse.
> 
> Yet everyone else seems to want to hold her to the same standards as appropriate for someone in a fully capable, independent emotional and mental state. That is just setting her, and the marriage, up for failure.
> 
> Does she need to own her mistakes? Yes!
> 
> Does grid deserve her utter remorse and to hear her unconditional begging pardon for her betrayal? Yes!
> 
> Does she need to commit to fidelity for the rest of her marriage? Yes!
> 
> And grid obviously needs, where appropriate, to do the same. A leader leads by example, after all. A true leader inspires trust.
> 
> I think grid knows in his heart this marriage can be saved, but the cost is his taking the leadership position, the first steps, with humility and empathy. And that is hard to do when we feel we are the victim.
> 
> But I am confident that if he were to pursue that path, truly reaching out to his wife with empathy, humility, patience and persistence, Mrs. Grid would follow. How could she resist a man with such integrity?


I agree with this. I'm not being an idiot when I say some of you I feel take some of jld's message and edit it to something else.

I don't agree with everything she says, and I do think there is a point (and we are past it) that my wife needs to reciprocate the effort or else it's all just BS and a waste of time (in terms of looking through the lens of reconciliation)


----------



## gridcom

LongWalk said:


> jld,
> 
> if Grid and his wife won a million dollars in the lottery or inherited $400,000 from Aunt Lydia, do you think it would help them to reconcile or divorce?


We would divorce, without question. There's a chance we'd reconcile down the road, but we'd absolutely try to be separate first.


----------



## gridcom

turnera said:


> To be fair, it's not always because of an affair. I have pulled away from my H in all those ways...because of HIM. He has disappointed me in so many ways that I find it hard to be attracted to him any more. He is FINALLY - finally! - getting it, really listening to what it feels like to be married to him, seeing I AM serious, and doing the things I've been asking for for 30 years.
> 
> But I'm not going to just jump into his arms because he finally gets it. If I had money, I'd be gone. But I'm stuck with him, for at least the next few years as I drag us out of this debt he (mostly) created. Will he be able to turn me around on him before we get financially solvent? Not sure.
> 
> So if she is THAT unhappy with him because of the verbal abuse and whatnot, it's VERY unlikely that she will just wake up tomorrow and say 'wow! you're great now! I'm crazy about you!' Today, when she looks at him, she sees an accumulation of pain. And resentment. And skepticism. That stuff, especially with women, takes a LONG time to go away, and only when replaced with better behavior.
> 
> So to expect her to just say 'wow, I'm sorry I cheated cos yurdabest!' is totally unrealistic. As LongWalk has said, she's a mess. NOTHING in her life is all that great. So we can say she should be kissing his boots all we want and feel good about ourselves for saying it, but it's just not realistic psychologically.
> 
> It's clear she was ripe for an affair at least partly because of her home environment, and it's clear such people easily fall into them, needing the feel-good it gives. So categorizing her as some slvt is nonproductive.


Boom
Yep


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> I am not clinging to every word jld says. I think she does accurately and more effectively relays the opinion of my wife. Like she said, I am listening to all advise and forming my own opinion. If anyone thinks I am zoning everyone else out but jld, you're wrong. That doesn't mean there isn't some valid points coming from her. To the extent that I have yet to give my wife any breathing room. And maybe with a little breathing room, my wife will respond the way you've all been demanding she respond, AND I AM ALSO DEMANDING she respond.


Your obviously not listening to JLD or me for that matter. JLD has good advice but imo should only be used when the affair has been dealt with and you two are sitting in front of a mc together both actively trying to fix things.

You are hovering over her and that is contrary to any advice you have been given on this board. No one wants you demanding anything. Hovering over her will make you look even more weak and needy and push her away further.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Thanks for weighing in grid. I'm satisfied with what you've said. I don't have much more to add other than to continue to get awesome grid back regardless of this other horrible stuff. Good luck.

Jld sorry your posts drew me out so strongly.

Grid - one thing is clear - you've got quite a lot of people on your side here and a diversity of thoughts so that's something.


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> I agree with this. I'm not being an idiot when I say some of you I feel take some of jld's message and edit it to something else.
> 
> I don't agree with everything she says, and I do think there is a point (and we are past it) that my wife needs to reciprocate the effort or else it's all just BS and a waste of time (in terms of looking through the lens of reconciliation)


Your wife's feelings are not going to turn on a dime. She is probably still in love with OM. Sux but it is what it is.

Reconciliation may still occur. It did for me. It didn't for others. You cannot force it. That's why I keep telling you to detach and focus on what you can control you. Hit the gym. Spend time with your girls and for godsakes leave your ww alone.


----------



## Evinrude58

I'm having to learn how to be a good "mate". Unless you have a really good example to follow--how is one supposed to know? I read all I can on the subject--- now!!. I had no clue what a woman needed from a man. It wasn't because I was a heartless bast***. I just had no idea. I thought if my wife was getting to do the things she enjoyed, I gave her loving attention at night regularly, (in my mind, sex and snuggling, and talking and enjoying each other's company), a nice home and car, and bills paid and broken things fixed, that she should be happy. I was horrible at gifts on every special occasion because I never cared about receiving such things myself, horrible at telling her sweet things daily, and horrible about listening and not trying to fix or analyze or point out her mistakes in a situation. I also yelled and griped when little things weren't done that I thought should have been on her end. In retrospect, I was likely a bad husband. I never drank, did drugs, ran around, wasted much money, or did any of the things I thought were bad things for a husband to do. 

My point: has grid likely been that way? I don't know, but the fact is, he can't change the past, and she wants no part of a future with him. He will have to accept this, and get over the guilt, and move on. He can do absolutely nothing to change her mind. She knows he wants to try. She doesn't and likely never will. He should do the 180 or whatever, and accept that his marriage is over. If one day she changes her mind, she will let him know. 
I know exactly how you feel. I still feel it. But you will never be happy until you accept it's over and accept that it's not all your fault, and that you didn't do anything on purpose to hurt her. Guess what, she did KNOWINGLY hurt you in the deepest manner possible. And you and I both know she doesn't truly regret it. You will be ok without her. There are other women that are literally starving for a good man to love, and have more character than your wife. Can you see that at all yet?

Your kids will experience change either way. Nothing will ever be the same with you and her. You're prolonging the agony, just like I did. 

I have a new lady who is an accomplished physician, speaks 3 languages, is very beautiful, and shows me what she needs and how to treat her. She takes perfect care of me in the ways I need.
Getting a divorce is not 100% all bad, I promise.


----------



## gridcom

ButtPunch said:


> Your obviously not listening to JLD or me for that matter. JLD has good advice but imo should only be used when the affair has been dealt with and you two are sitting in front of a mc together both actively trying to fix things.
> 
> You are hovering over her and that is contrary to any advice you have been given on this board. No one wants you demanding anything. Hovering over her will make you look even more weak and needy and push her away further.


Hovering less by the day


----------



## gridcom

ButtPunch said:


> Your wife's feelings are not going to turn on a dime. She is probably still in love with OM. Sux but it is what it is.


I believe that to be true. I do think her passion for OM has subsided. And that opinion is because of the way she has acted, not what she's said. The hook in her heart is getting looser, but it's not out and may not be for sometime. It certainly will not be out all the way until she stops working with him and walks away from the job and her life defined by that job.


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> I believe that to be true. I do think her passion for OM has subsided. And that opinion is because of the way she has acted, not what she's said. The hook in her heart is getting looser, but it's not out and may not be for sometime. It certainly will not be out all the way until she stops working with him and walks away from the job and her life defined by that job.


Back off. Let the chips fall where they may. Take your kids to a movie tonight and hit the gym tomorrow. Whatever happens, I promise it is gonna be alright.


----------



## gridcom

ButtPunch said:


> Back off. Let the chips fall where they may. Take your kids to a movie tonight and hit the gym tomorrow. Whatever happens, I promise it is gonna be alright.


I worked out today al ready and I need to scout the AL teams for my NY Mets tonight (and drink some beer)


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> I worked out today al ready and I need to scout the AL teams for my NY Mets tonight (and drink some beer)


Get out of the house, get a fresh haircut and go watch the game with some buddies.


----------



## Chuck71

Grid..... how long have you been a Mets fan? I gotsa question......

1969 Mets vs. 1986 Mets........ who wins best of seven? Why?


----------



## tom67

gridcom said:


> I worked out today al ready and I need to scout the AL teams for my NY Mets tonight (and drink some beer)


Those cubs are like the 2005 white sox.
Looking like it's their year and this is from a sox fan.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

EVG39 said:


> Grid,
> I hesitate to wander into this thread at all but I wanted to give you a bit of advice from a different perspective. Unsolicited, free legal advice is usually worth what you pay for it but I couldn't keep reading without weighing in.
> I know you have a lawyer. Has he/she mentioned the "B" word yet, as in bankruptcy? Now I know I have probably offended you and about half the board's sense of morality but bankruptcy needs to be on the table. My gut tells me that is where you are heading anyway, especially if you two get divorced. And if you get divorced let me tell you there is no doubt in mind that she will then file for bankruptcy. So forewarned is forearmed so to speak. Now let me preface this with the fact that I never practiced in New York State, but in most states it makes more sense for the parties to actually file bankruptcy first and then divorce. It especially makes sense for the party to the divorce that is likely to be ordered to pick up the lion's share of the debt (sorry partner, that's you) to file bankruptcy first. It does a couple things, one obviously it gives you the fresh start you need to rebuild your life but also since you and your wife have effectively dealt with much of the debt (and some of the assets) there is less to fight over in the divorce. And thus less legal fees. In fact the bankruptcy becomes the building block of the separation agreement. Talk to your lawyer about this, ask him/her this question "Suppose I get divorced and the Judge orders me to pay the debts. If I find out I can't pay them can I then file bankruptcy and get out from under my obligation to pay the debts like the Judge ordered?" Make sure you word it exactly like that. Then go down the street to a bankruptcy lawyer and ask the same question. Compare and Contrast.
> Secondly, even if you don't want to go the bankruptcy route, you can still work with a mediator. Its not an either or prospect, divorce or mediation. All a mediator does is help you and your wife settle some or all of this issues of your divorce. Matter of fact if your lawyers haven't sent you guys to a mediator by the time you attend your first pretrial hearing, the judge will likely order you to attend a mediation session. Then you have lost time and money by not going. So again, if you don't want to look at bankruptcy check into you and your wife going to a mediator on your own. You don't need anyone's permission to do that. But first make sure you and she fully understand the lay of the land regarding all assets and debts. You don't want to spend your session fighting over how much the Visa bill is.
> Oh and by the way, her friend at her lawyer's office is toxic in a myriad of ways. I know the type. Torpedo that any way you can.
> So there you go. Do with this advice what you will. I know you are hoping for a reconciliation and my advice is all about divorce. But you need to have this information in your back pocket regardless of which way you go.
> Do know that either way things work out, I am rooting for you. And so are lots of other people.


I am SO glad that you posted here! So many people sit on the excuse of their debt being the reason they cannot divorce, when there is always the option of bankruptcy. Is it nice? Is it pleasant? NO. It carries its own kind of humiliation with it, as I know first hand. But it can be a lifeline to someone drowning in a miserable marriage. I had to file in order to be able to divorce my second husband. (he didn't know that was my motivation at the time) It unlocked the door to my freedom, and my life has not fallen apart in the least, in fact, my credit score shot way up once I filed. It seems like a terrible thing to encourage, but sometimes life determines these things need to be done.


----------



## Chuck71

tom67 said:


> Those cubs are like the 2005 white sox.
> Looking like it's their year and this is from a sox fan.


Well Tom.... I did make the comment a couple years ago, "I will contact my XW and ask for R when the Cubs

win the damn World Series." I AM getting quite nervous.

But it is a refreshing change.... the NL was represented in WS by Cardinals in 2011 and 2013, the Giants in

2010, 2012, 2014.


----------



## gridcom

Chuck71 said:


> Grid..... how long have you been a Mets fan? I gotsa question......
> 
> 1969 Mets vs. 1986 Mets........ who wins best of seven? Why?


'86 Mets because I wasnt even alive in '69
I've been a Mets fan since 1978 when I was 6 years old. Grew up in a house of Yankees fans. Identified with the Mets more. Lovable losers then. Sometimes they'd pull one out and the taste was always sweeter because the effort to get there was full of twists and turns and disappointments


----------



## bfree

Tell you what. I'm a Sox fan (red not white) and I'm absolutely ecstatic that the NLCS is Cubs/Mets. Gotta believe whoever wins that series is taking the WS. Both teams are great. Not sure who I like more.


----------



## LongWalk

Grid,

You are doing way better. BP's advice is right on. Relationship discussion is pointless at the moment. You are not in negotiation to extract terms of reconciliation.

One day your wife may wake up, look at you and be amazed that you are still there, despite what you've suffered. She will feel remorse from head to toe. Jld will say that she told you so.

But it is also possible that the week after Retrouvaille you will wake up one morning and catch her coming in the door after being dropped off by OM.

The Mets could win or lose. Not knowing is part of the attraction.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

3Xnocharm said:


> I am SO glad that you posted here! So many people sit on the excuse of their debt being the reason they cannot divorce, when there is always the option of bankruptcy. Is it nice? Is it pleasant? NO. It carries its own kind of humiliation with it, as I know first hand. But it can be a lifeline to someone drowning in a miserable marriage. I had to file in order to be able to divorce my second husband. (he didn't know that was my motivation at the time) It unlocked the door to my freedom, and my life has not fallen apart in the least, in fact, my credit score shot way up once I filed. It seems like a terrible thing to encourage, but sometimes life determines these things need to be done.


3X is exactly right. I predicted my STBXW would file 13 right after our D. She did.

I predicted XW would eventually file 7. She did..... how do I know?

She NEVER changed her address. I'm still going round and round with the post office about

getting her mail. He11 it's been almost three years. She gets tons of pre-ap'd CCs, car loan deals....

Sure the APR is probably 19% or 3% until you miss one payment by one day, then it jumps to 29%.

Especially after a 7... you are viewed as a secure risk... you can't re-file 7 for a number of years.

My parents had to go 7 when pop's two businesses went under in the early 80's. They chose certain CCs,

paid them off every month. Within four years... they had excellent credit for anything... except buying a home.


----------



## gridcom

I would definitely look at Bankruptcy, without question. My wife has said she is completely opposed. To be fair, neither one of us knows all the in's and out's.


----------



## EVG39

gridcom said:


> '86 Mets because I wasnt even alive in '69
> I've been a Mets fan since 1978 when I was 6 years old. Grew up in a house of Yankees fans. Identified with the Mets more. Lovable losers then. Sometimes they'd pull one out and the taste was always sweeter because the effort to get there was full of twists and turns and disappointments


No way! 69 Mets in a sweep!! All that pitching Seaver, Koosman, McGraw, Ryan, etc. 
Not that I am old enough to (ahem) remember them. :smile2:

Enjoy your weekend. you deserve it.


----------



## Chuck71

gridcom said:


> '86 Mets because I wasnt even alive in '69
> I've been a Mets fan since 1978 when I was 6 years old. Grew up in a house of Yankees fans. Identified with the Mets more. Lovable losers then. Sometimes they'd pull one out and the taste was always sweeter because the effort to get there was full of twists and turns and disappointments


Reared in a Yankee household..... poor guy. Sounds like you started getting into baseball when the Yankees

revival came about in the mid-70's. The '86 Mets had much more power and precision at the plate.

The '69 Mets were situation hitters, more manufactured runs than three-run HRs. 

On the mound, '86 had Gooden, Darling, Fernandez, Ojeda. '69... Seaver, Koosman, Ryan, Gentry.

One would think the '86 bullpen of Orosco / McDowell would be the clearest advantage.... '69 had McGraw / Taylor.

It would go seven.... no doubt. I am not taking anything away from Davey Johnson.... wherever he managed,

his team won.... Mets, Orioles, Dodgers, Nationals... but Gil Hodges was a complete student of the game.

'69 Mets in seven games. 

BTW.... I wasn't around in '69 either.... My worst Mets disappointment was '88. They should have

beaten the Dodgers. Everyone wanted the '88 WS to be A's-Mets. When Gooden gave up that HR.... that was the

beginning of the end for the 80's Mets mini dynasty.


----------



## gridcom

Let me know if I am wrong here

One of my wife's co-workers knew about the affair. She was a main part of the little post work bar/drinking circle that this affair was born from. When the affair happened, this woman tried to protect my wife from my snooping and I also found a text where she was speaking on behalf of the OM and told my wife that he was sad that it was falling apart (this was 8 weeks ago, at least). She was also the woman who told the OM that I was in the bar the night I accidentally ended up in the same bar as this guy and told him to scoot out of there before trouble.

Anyway, my wife just now casually mentions to me that this friend might stop by to visit, and in a way like none of the above ever happened. In my current "focus on me, leave it alone (for now)" frame of mind, I still couldnt help but be like "Uh, she's not welcome in this house. She encouraged an affair" My wife DEFENDS her friend. Quick little back and forth and my wife had to leave.

Am I out of line? 

I already know the answer!!!!!

Sorry. Venting.

So OBVIOUS

EDIT: This woman is also freshly married. I feel bad for her husband


----------



## farsidejunky

You know what you are doing.

Don't let her steer you wrong.


----------



## jld

How about confronting her? Not in an aggressive way, but in a matter of fact way, before you ask her to leave.


----------



## MJJEAN

You are not out of line. It's your home, too, and this "friend" betrayed you. She has proven untrustworthy. There is no reason you should have to allow someone who has betrayed you into your home. If your wife wants to spend time with this "friend", she can do it elsewhere.


----------



## farsidejunky

The fact that she still views her as a friend shows how far her head is still inside of her fourth point of contact...


----------



## gridcom

jld said:


> How about confronting her? Not in an aggressive way, but in a matter of fact way, before you ask her to leave.


I did. I didnt ask her to leave, she was leaving to go out with the kids.
I was a bit taken aback by how casual she made it all sound. THIS is the essence of why the "jld approach" is in some ways flawed. She really has no idea of the hurt she has caused, no matter how much "kid gloves" you use in dealing with her.


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> I did. I didnt ask her to leave, she was leaving to go out with the kids.
> I was a bit taken aback by how casual she made it all sound. THIS is the essence of the "jld approach". She really has no idea of the hurt she has caused, no matter how much "kid gloves" you use in dealing with her.


Here comes the hard part.....She probably never will even if you reconcile


----------



## jld

gridcom said:


> I did. I didnt ask her to leave, she was leaving to go out with the kids.
> I was a bit taken aback by how casual she made it all sound. THIS is the essence of the "jld approach". She really has no idea of the hurt she has caused, no matter how much "kid gloves" you use in dealing with her.


You have to be clear with her.

Grid, you may not have understood me. I am not saying anything goes. I am saying you have to be firm, but kind. 

But don't forget the firmness!


----------



## gridcom

ButtPunch said:


> Here comes the hard part.....She probably never will even if you reconcile


I can see how that would be the case. It's really a total disconnect in our respective views of this whole thing. It just really drives the nail all the way through the (dead) wood in how far her head is up her own a$$.


----------



## gridcom

Seriously, we cant go one day clean without something going sideways


----------



## jld

gridcom said:


> Seriously, we cant go one day clean without something going sideways


How about sitting down and having a clear conversation? What you expect, how you see things, basically setting it all out there.

You can be kind and calm, but firm. 

Grid, is your heart just not in this anymore?


----------



## bfree

Grid, if she ever gets to a point of remorse, and I mean true empathy and remorse, she might not ever feel your pain but her own pain will match yours in intensity. Sadly it doesn't seem that she will ever get there.


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> I can see how that would be the case. It's really a total disconnect in our respective views of this whole thing. It just really drives the nail all the way through the (dead) wood in how far her head is up her own a$$.


Yep....and no amount of logic, reasoning, convincing is going to reach her. She will here none of it. You are like that teachers voice on Charlie Brown to her


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6p1Ck0ab80


----------



## ButtPunch

bfree said:


> Grid, if she ever gets to a point of remorse, and I mean true empathy and remorse, she might not ever feel your pain but her own pain will match yours in intensity.



I see this a lot on TAM but I question it.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

jld said:


> How about confronting her? Not in an aggressive way, but in a matter of fact way, before you ask her to leave.


How bout b!tch was out of line???


----------



## gridcom

jld said:


> How about sitting down and having a clear conversation? What you expect, how you see things, basically setting it all out there.
> 
> You can be kind and calm, but firm.
> 
> Grid, is your heart just not in this anymore?


This has been done, over and over. In various forms. Loud/ soft/ nice/ not nice/pleading/lawyering/etc/etc

I dont know why you'd ask if my heart isnt into it? Weird question. Because I wont tolerate this stupidity? I have no problem being nice and calm and even and all that, but stupid is stupid

And that little tidbit is stupid


----------



## jld

bfree said:


> Grid, if she ever gets to a point of remorse, and I mean true empathy and remorse, she might not ever feel your pain but her own pain will match yours in intensity. Sadly it doesn't seem that she will ever get there.


Let's not give up yet. But he does need to communicate clearly.


----------



## ButtPunch

No matter what you say I will not take the bait.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Personally I would contact the affair promotor /protectors new husband and let him know. This woman had invaded your marriage so you have grounds to address her husband. It goes to her character and new hubby deserves to know. But that's just me - I'm pretty black and white when it comes to right and wrong and would have no qualms about warning a potential victim.


----------



## jld

gridcom said:


> This has been done, over and over. In various forms. Loud/ soft/ nice/ not nice/pleading/lawyering/etc/etc
> 
> I dont know why you'd ask if my heart isnt into it? Weird question. Because I wont tolerate this stupidity? I have no problem being nice and calm and even and all that, but stupid is stupid
> 
> And that little tidbit is stupid


Not asking you to tolerate stupidity. And glad to hear your heart is still in it.


----------



## gridcom

jld said:


> Let's not give up yet. But he does need to communicate clearly.


Not sure how I could be more clear

"She's not welcome here and here's why"


----------



## jld

gridcom said:


> Not sure how I could be more clear
> 
> "She's not welcome here and here's why"


Yes. Repeat it if you have to. Ask her why she thinks it is okay. Ask her how it is going to help your reconciliation.


----------



## jld

TheTruthHurts said:


> Personally I would contact the affair promotor /protectors new husband and let him know. This woman had invaded your marriage so you have grounds to address her husband. It goes to her character and new hubby deserves to know. But that's just me - I'm pretty black and white when it comes to right and wrong and would have no qualms about warning a potential victim.


Not a bad idea. At the worst he thinks you're a loon. But at least it would send a message to the wife.

Gosh, so sorry about all this, grid.


----------



## gridcom

TheTruthHurts said:


> Personally I would contact the affair promotor /protectors new husband and let him know. This woman had invaded your marriage so you have grounds to address her husband. It goes to her character and new hubby deserves to know. But that's just me - I'm pretty black and white when it comes to right and wrong and would have no qualms about warning a potential victim.


I did this. The night she told OM to leave the bar, I confronted her in front of her husband and laid it out. At the time, I didnt know all that I know now, I just new that snapshot of what happened.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

jld said:


> TheTruthHurts said:
> 
> 
> 
> Personally I would contact the affair promotor /protectors new husband and let him know. This woman had invaded your marriage so you have grounds to address her husband. It goes to her character and new hubby deserves to know. But that's just me - I'm pretty black and white when it comes to right and wrong and would have no qualms about warning a potential victim.
> 
> 
> 
> Not a bad idea. At the worst he thinks you're a loon. But at least it would send a message to the wife.
> 
> Gosh, so sorry about all this, grid.
Click to expand...

I think the key is to be objective and factual - "your wife interfered with my marriage by encouraging my wife during an affair, mediating between my wife and her affair partner, and going so far as to actively hide the affair from me. Bit goes to her character and I'm sure you would not be told this side of the situation, and I felt obligated to let you know about your wife's attitudes and actions regarding marital infidelity."

Sometimes being direct and dispassionate can be devastating and eye opening.


----------



## gridcom

I will say.... when I was much younger (mid 20's) I worked with a guy who was having an affair with a co-worker. He was much older than me, but I'd been to his house and was friendly with his wife. I knew about the affair and didnt tell him he was being a hurtful a$$hole and hurting his kids. I didn't have kids at the time. We'd go to lunch and he'd brag about the sex, etc. Does that make me a bad person? 

I think the difference being I NEVER got involved, protected him, or made it any of my business. But, at the same time, I wasn't "whatever" enough (courageous, righteous, brave) to call him out on it, either


----------



## turnera

So you told your wife the woman was not welcome in your house, and she fought you on it? What was her justification?


----------



## TeddieG

gridcom said:


> I did. I didnt ask her to leave, she was leaving to go out with the kids.
> I was a bit taken aback by how casual she made it all sound. THIS is the essence of why the "jld approach" is in some ways flawed. She really has no idea of the hurt she has caused, no matter how much "kid gloves" you use in dealing with her.


Do you know, I'm 7 years past his confession of infidelity, and I am still processing the degree to which he hurt me and the degree to which he was either clueless that he was or didn't care that he was. Who sits on your brother's back porch and texts and calls his OW on the day you and your brother buried a mother? 

This is EXACTLY the still head-scratching feature of all this for me. I can see my h being mad at me, but projecting his flaccid penis ruined by an inept doctor on me, and saying that if he loved me he wouldn't have ED and not thinking that would do some long term damage? And I stuck by him through all his medical issues that followed. I finally realized, when I got away from h and got some space, that I lost all respect for him when instead of being mad at the doctor who stuck a piece of plastic up him and damaged nerves, and then damaged some more on the way out, he blamed me for his physical and health issue. If he loved me, he wouldn't have it. So why would it surprise me that someone would look up from the table on the back porch and say, like a zombie with no emotion, sorry if I'm being insensitive but I have to go call my girlfriend. 

The completely casual and amazingly detached way they can do things that they KNOW would break our hearts, and then casually tell us about them, is unbelievable. Some people say that cheating is a passive-aggressive way of hurting everyone in your life who ever hurt you and punishing the person you're married to as a stand-in; others, including those I have heard from who cheated, said they weren't thinking about anything other than getting laid. 

Either way . . .


----------



## Another Planet

gridcom said:


> Let me know if I am wrong here
> 
> One of my wife's co-workers knew about the affair. She was a main part of the little post work bar/drinking circle that this affair was born from. When the affair happened, this woman tried to protect my wife from my snooping and I also found a text where she was speaking on behalf of the OM and told my wife that he was sad that it was falling apart (this was 8 weeks ago, at least). She was also the woman who told the OM that I was in the bar the night I accidentally ended up in the same bar as this guy and told him to scoot out of there before trouble.
> 
> Anyway, my wife just now casually mentions to me that this friend might stop by to visit, and in a way like none of the above ever happened. In my current "focus on me, leave it alone (for now)" frame of mind, I still couldnt help but be like "Uh, she's not welcome in this house. She encouraged an affair" My wife DEFENDS her friend. Quick little back and forth and my wife had to leave.
> 
> Am I out of line?
> 
> I already know the answer!!!!!
> 
> Sorry. Venting.
> 
> So OBVIOUS
> 
> EDIT: This woman is also freshly married. I feel bad for her husband


You create your own environment. If you don't want this toxic person in your familys life don't let her. Stand your ground, be the man of the house. Your wife and this "friend" obviously have boundary issues. If you have to be a **** about it then be one. You lead your family not anyone else, if your wife wants to follow she will otherwise let her stray. 
Literally she has slapped you across the face with how little respect she has for you with the betrayal and lack of empathy towards you. You obviously know right from wrong so why in the world are you lowering your standards for her?


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Sorry grid I missed your post - glad you confronted


----------



## jld

TheTruthHurts said:


> I think the key is to be objective and factual - "your wife interfered with my marriage by encouraging my wife during an affair, mediating between my wife and her affair partner, and going so far as to actively hide the affair from me. Bit goes to her character and I'm sure you would not be told this side of the situation, and I felt obligated to let you know about your wife's attitudes and actions regarding marital infidelity."
> 
> Sometimes being direct and dispassionate can be devastating and eye opening.


Again, he might think you are a loon, but it might make you feel better, grid.


----------



## TeddieG

buttpunch said:


> here comes the hard part.....she probably never will even if you reconcile


this!!!


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Curious... Why do you say that - he might think you're a loon? I don't get that at all. Are you not typically honest and direct with people? For the life of me I can not imagine anyone thinking someone else is a loon for telling them something about the character of their spouse. Very odd...


----------



## Another Planet

gridcom said:


> I will say.... when I was much younger (mid 20's) I worked with a guy who was having an affair with a co-worker. He was much older than me, but I'd been to his house and was friendly with his wife. *I knew about the affair and didnt tell him he was being a hurtful a$$hole and hurting his kids. I didn't have kids at the time. We'd go to lunch and he'd brag about the sex, etc. Does that make me a bad person? *
> 
> I think the difference being I NEVER got involved, protected him, or made it any of my business. But, at the same time, I wasn't "whatever" enough (courageous, righteous, brave) to call him out on it, either


Are you seriously justifying? WHY?!

I guarantee with your pushover mentality and her lack of ambition for your relationship she will be screwing OM if she isn't still or will have another OM soon enough. God luck brother smh


----------



## gridcom

Another Planet said:


> Are you seriously justifying? WHY?!
> 
> I guarantee with your pushover mentality and her lack of ambition for your relationship she will be screwing OM if she isn't still or will have another OM soon enough. God luck brother smh


Not justifying, just being honest. I am calling this behavior out and I think it's worth mentioning that I did something similar.
That said, if my friends wife found out I knew about his affair (regardless of if I encouraged it or not) I wouldn't blame her for not wanting me to be a part of his life if they were trying to get past the affair


----------



## ButtPunch

Many BS's are urged to go No Contact with their WS after ALL ELSE has failed.


This 180 list may help.
--------------------------


Michelle Weiner Davis's divorce busting 180 degree list, here it is:

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore.
2. No frequent phone calls.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage.
4. Do not follow him/her around the house.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
6. Do not ask for help from family members.
7. Do not ask for reassurances.
8. Do not buy gifts.
9. Do not schedule dates together.
10. Do not spy on spouse.
11. Do not say "I Love You".
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what she will be missing
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show him/her someone he/she would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).
21. Never lose your cool.
22. Don't be overly enthusiastic.
23. Do not argue about how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger).
24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and possibly walk away.
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil).
28. Be strong and confident.
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because they are hurting and scared.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34. Do not backslide from your hard-earned changes.


----------



## jld

TheTruthHurts said:


> Curious... Why do you say that - he might think you're a loon? I don't get that at all. Are you not typically honest and direct with people? For the life of me I can not imagine anyone thinking someone else is a loon for telling them something about the character of their spouse. Very odd...


To someone with a more relaxed mindset, it might come off as controlling and a bit paranoid.

There's honest and direct, and then there is involving other people in your business and trying to "out" them to their spouses, because you know best how everyone should see things, be, and do.

For all you know, he is fine with however she is. 

Then again, he may feel grateful for the tip. You just don't know.

Just an outside perspective.


----------



## Another Planet

gridcom said:


> Another Planet said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are you seriously justifying? WHY?!
> 
> I guarantee with your pushover mentality and her lack of ambition for your relationship she will be screwing OM if she isn't still or will have another OM soon enough. God luck brother smh
> 
> 
> 
> Not justifying, just being honest. I am calling this behavior out and I think it's worth mentioning that I did something similar.
> That said, if my friends wife found out I knew about his affair (regardless of if I encouraged it or not) I wouldn't blame her for not wanting me to be a part of his life if they were trying to get past the affair
Click to expand...

Ok I am just reminding you that you have every right to be pissed. Remember this is your life and your time you are using on this relationship and situation. You don't get another chance.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Wow Jld you surprise me! You assert tremendous controlling power to basic human interactions. I believe people have a moral obligation to do the right thing even when it's hard. knowledge is power, and giving someone else the power of knowledge is the opposite of exerting control.

While i am pretty black and white on many issues, for most I see shades of gray so this isn't a huge issue for me. By and large I am a live and let live kind of guy.

But where I see peoe taking advantage of one another - particularly when it is done beyond the "rules" of fair play, I almost always believe putting things in the table is a great equalizer.

I have been involved in many, many hard- and soft-core political plays in business and been involved in the M&a world (mergers and acquisitions). I suppose I have developed a disdain for unethical behavior and have learned from many smart people. The best (imo) are those who strike a win-win and part of that is derailing nefarious plans. Putting bad behavior out in the open and in the light of day ensures that the co*kroaches scurry away.


----------



## jld

Here's a thought, grid. Dug says if the lady comes to your house, you know they talked, which day, how long. He is not suggesting you eavesdrop, but you have more idea of who she is talking to than if you were to forbid someone from the house.

He also said it could be a subject of conversation between you. It is not like you can control who she talks to. She will find a way.

Just a thought.


----------



## jld

Thing is, Truth, we may all define "the right thing" differently.


----------



## gridcom

jld said:


> Here's a thought, grid. Dug says if the lady comes to your house, you know they talked, which day, how long. He is not suggesting you eavesdrop, but you have more idea of who she is talking to than if you were to forbid someone from the house.
> 
> He also said it could be a subject of conversation between you. It is not like you can control who she talks to. She will find a way.
> 
> Just a thought.


I don't care that they remain friends. I'm sure this woman is not a total walking sleeze (spelled incorrectly on purpose)
That said, she's not welcome at the house I reside in. Ever. Never.

EDIT: I take it back. I do care if they remain friends. If we are in "fix the marriage mode" or "the marrige is fixed" mode, this woman is OUT


----------



## TheTruthHurts

jld said:


> Thing is, Truth, we may all define "the right thing" differently.


Relativism is a cancer of thought.

Involving me in your duplicitous, hurtful behavior (in grids shoes) makes this unambiguous. There is no scenario where lying to me and helping my wife betray me and destroy my family and damage my kids is anything OTHER than the WRONG thing. So I find it hard to believe you are arguing this point for reasons other than ego. Or does your concept of right and wrong include the possibility that her behavior is not clearly wrong?


----------



## turnera

Another Planet said:


> Are you seriously justifying? WHY?!
> 
> I guarantee with your pushover mentality and her lack of ambition for your relationship she will be screwing OM if she isn't still or will have another OM soon enough. God luck brother smh


Another Planet, he's talking about a coworker who was cheating on his wife, not his own situation.


----------



## jld

gridcom said:


> I don't care that they remain friends. I'm sure this woman is not a total walking sleeze (spelled incorrectly on purpose)
> That said, she's not welcome at the house I reside in. Ever. Never.


From Dug: "Okay. But realize that making it more difficult for your wife to talk to this lady may make it more appealing to your wife to have secrets from you, because she knows being honest and open will make you have a fit about it."

Grid, do you get how this ties in with the controlling narrative your wife has about you? Do you think your approach helps that?


----------



## jld

gridcom said:


> I don't care that they remain friends. I'm sure this woman is not a total walking sleeze (spelled incorrectly on purpose)
> That said, she's not welcome at the house I reside in. Ever. Never.
> 
> EDIT: I take it back. I do care if they remain friends. If we are in "fix the marriage mode" or "the marrige is fixed" mode, this woman is OUT


Okay. I got the message.


----------



## ButtPunch

Grid....

Find a moderator and move this to the private section so it won't be so easy for her to read this stuff.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

jld said:


> Here's a thought, grid. Dug says if the lady comes to your house, you know they talked, which day, how long. He is not suggesting you eavesdrop, but you have more idea of who she is talking to than if you were to forbid someone from the house.
> 
> He also said it could be a subject of conversation between you. It is not like you can control who she talks to. She will find a way.
> 
> Just a thought.


Or...he could show some integrity and say 'I don't allow people who commit treachery into my sphere of people (Except you. Maybe. Remains to be seen.). You're free to see her wherever and whenever you want, if we're divorced. But as long as we are married you will refrain from bringing her into my circle.'

ETA: Oops, that's pretty much what he said.  Good job, grid.


----------



## gridcom

Yeah I think this falls under the basic common sense/boundaries coming from an affair. All people involved in the affair and anyone who was OK with it or encouraged it are NOT WELCOME in the BS's house.


----------



## jld

TheTruthHurts said:


> Relativism is a cancer of thought.
> 
> Involving me in your duplicitous, hurtful behavior (in grids shoes) makes this unambiguous. There is no scenario where lying to me and helping my wife betray me and destroy my family and damage my kids is anything OTHER than the WRONG thing. So I find it hard to believe you are arguing this point for reasons other than ego. Or does your concept of right and wrong include the possibility that her behavior is not clearly wrong?


Truth, are you a right winger? 

The reality is that not everyone agrees with "outing" people to their spouses. Some choose to stay out of other people's business, as they see it, anyway. 

People do sometimes reconcile after affairs. This is not necessarily going to end in divorce. And they both played their parts in this mess, not just the wife.


----------



## turnera

jld said:


> From Dug: "Okay. But realize that making it more difficult for your wife to talk to this lady may make it more appealing to your wife to have secrets from you


So, basically, grid's job in this marriage is to be an A#1 kiss-ass and let her do anything her little heart desires, and just sit there and pay for everything, so she doesn't 'have to' lie to him about seeing people he doesn't want _because of what they did to him_? I suppose he should let the OM come over and dance all over his bed with Mrs. grid, too? Cuz, you know, if he forbids it, that just 'forces' her to lie about her cheating.

Wow.


----------



## jld

gridcom said:


> Yeah I think this falls under the basic common sense/boundaries coming from an affair. All people involved in the affair and anyone who was OK with it or encouraged it are NOT WELCOME in the BS's house.


But you do get how your wife may perceive this as controlling, adding to her already feeling that way about you?

I mean it's obviously your call, but you're a smart guy, and I am sure you want to consider all perspectives, even the ones that might make you a little uncomfortable initially.


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> So, basically, grid's job in this marriage is to be an A#1 kiss-ass and let her do anything her little heart desires, and just sit there and pay for everything, so she doesn't 'have to' lie to him about seeing people he doesn't want _because of what they did to him_? I suppose he should let the OM come over and dance all over his bed with Mrs. grid, too? Cuz, you know, if he forbids it, that just 'forces' her to lie about her cheating.
> 
> Wow.


From Dug: "It's about results, not hurt feelings."


----------



## turnera

jld said:


> But you do get how your wife may perceive this as controlling, adding to her already feeling that way about you?


OMG.

THIS IS NOT CONTROLLING. This is showing dignity and self respect. WTH?

If she can't even understand THAT much compassion for another human being whom SHE DESTROYED by putting another penis in her body and having the person in question HIDE HER LOVER from him, then NOTHING will ever make sense to her and this is a lost cause.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Opposite of right winger. Having personal integrity is not outing someone else. Use of the term "outing" is interesting - seems very shallow and manipulative as it is typically used in the context of exposing someone's sexual orientation against their wishes. If you truly believe low character is a personal trait like sexual orientation that deserves personal protection, then I seriously question your judgement and integrity.

Btw I am not suggesting communicating this as punishment or to cause a reaction. I believe it is unfortunate personal knowledge of active immoral / unethical behavior that now makes you (the one in the know) responsible to NOT ignore and therefore implicitly support.

Basic ethics - once you know something, what you do with that knowledge demonstrates your character.

You go grid - well stated!


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> But you do get how your wife may perceive this as controlling, adding to her already feeling that way about you?
> 
> I mean it's obviously your call, but you're a smart guy, and I am sure you want to consider all perspectives, even the ones that might make you a little uncomfortable initially.


Do you not see how it compromises his principles?

This whole thing may fall apart due to incompatibility instead of an affair and emotional abuse.


----------



## turnera

jld said:


> From Dug: "It's about results, not hurt feelings."


No, it's about having respect for yourself and standing up for SOMETHING after your wife trashes you. 

You two need to stay off the Infidelity page. Seriously.


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> OMG.
> 
> THIS IS NOT CONTROLLING. This is showing dignity and self respect. WTH?
> 
> If she can't even understand THAT much compassion for another human being whom SHE DESTROYED by putting another penis in her body and having the person in question HIDE HER LOVER from him, then NOTHING will ever make sense to her and this is a lost cause.


I don't think she is there yet, or she would not have allowed the friend to come, nor told grid about it.

Turnera, you know life is not that black and white. Your earlier post showed that.


----------



## ButtPunch

She won't respect you if you don't have a backbone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> No, it's about having respect for yourself and standing up for SOMETHING after your wife trashes you.
> 
> You two need to stay off the Infidelity page. Seriously.


It's a forum. You hear a variety of views. 

And I don't think it is external controls that will keep grid safe. It is strengthening the emotional bonds with his wife.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Do you not see how it compromises his principles?
> 
> This whole thing may fall apart due to incompatibility instead of an affair and emotional abuse.


It may, far. I have been pulling for his marriage, but it may not work out.

Grid can do anything he wants. Dug just has a different perspective, and I think it is good to have different views considered.

Again, keeping people out is unlikely to keep us as truly safe as forming strong emotional bonds with our spouse.


----------



## jld

TheTruthHurts said:


> Opposite of right winger. Having personal integrity is not outing someone else. Use of the term "outing" is interesting - seems very shallow and manipulative as it is typically used in the context of exposing someone's sexual orientation against their wishes. If you truly believe low character is a personal trait like sexual orientation that deserves personal protection, then I seriously question your judgement and integrity.
> 
> Btw I am not suggesting communicating this as punishment or to cause a reaction. I believe it is unfortunate personal knowledge of active immoral / unethical behavior that now makes you (the one in the know) responsible to NOT ignore and therefore implicitly support.
> 
> Basic ethics - once you know something, what you do with that knowledge demonstrates your character.
> 
> You go grid - well stated!


You know best.


----------



## MJJEAN

jld said:


> But you do get how your wife may perceive this as controlling, adding to her already feeling that way about you?
> 
> I mean it's obviously your call, but you're a smart guy, and I am sure you want to consider all perspectives, even the ones that might make you a little uncomfortable initially.


It's not controlling to refuse a pit viper entrance to your nest. That's his home. The place where he should feel safe. He cannot relax and feel safe knowing someone who stabbed him in the back by lying to him and actively assisting his wife in her affair is in his private space.

I do think it would be controlling if he said "Wife, you can no longer be friends with Pit Viper." (I have made a decree!)

I would not think it controlling for him to say "Wife, I want to make our marriage work. However, I cannot stand to have people who assisted you in your betrayal of me. You have the right to choose your friends. I have the right to say what behaviors in a spouse I will and will not accept. And I will not accept being married to someone who wants to associate with Pit Vipers because I do not want Pit Vipers involved in my life in any way." ( I have explained to you what I am willing to live with and you need to decide if my terms are acceptable to you.)


----------



## ConanHub

This thread is like a mega disaster unfolding.

You might not like what you're seeing but you can't look away.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

MJJEAN said:


> It's not controlling to refuse a pit viper entrance to your nest. That's his home. The place where he should feel safe. He cannot relax and feel safe knowing someone who stabbed him in the back by lying to him and actively assisting his wife in her affair is in his private space.
> 
> I do think it would be controlling if he said "Wife, you can no longer be friends with Pit Viper." (I have made a decree!)
> 
> I would not think it controlling for him to say "Wife, I want to make our marriage work. However, I cannot stand to have people who assisted you in your betrayal of me. You have the right to choose your friends. I have the right to say what behaviors in a spouse I will and will not accept. And I will not accept being married to someone who wants to associate with Pit Vipers because I do not want Pit Vipers involved in my life in any way." ( I have explained to you what I am willing to live with and you need to decide if my terms are acceptable to you.)


Sure, he could do that. He could back it up with a threat to divorce her, too, if he ever finds out she associated with pit vipers again.

Or he could reach out to her, try to understand where she is coming from, nurture those emotional bonds with her to the extent that she feels so close to him that she does not _want_ to displease him in any way.

Just two different approaches.


----------



## gridcom

ConanHub said:


> This thread is like a mega disaster unfolding.
> 
> You might not like what you're seeing but you can't look away.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hahaha, this is a terrific post. I was just suddenly struck with the overwhelming thought that among the good things I can be doing right now is less "Talking About Marriage".

Again, I absolutely appreciate all the concern. Maybe someday I'll write a book.

I am going to refrain from posting anything rather small like my wife inviting her co-worker over. I'll be back when something significant happens

LETS GO METS


----------



## jld

It's gonna be the Cubs, though, grid. Sorry.


----------



## Another Planet

turnera said:


> Another Planet, he's talking about a coworker who was cheating on his wife, not his own situation.


I know. He was relating a story to make him feel better about the situation when he should actually be furious.


----------



## ButtPunch

ConanHub said:


> This thread is like a mega disaster unfolding.
> 
> You might not like what you're seeing but you can't look away.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think I've said I'm leaving like three times but here I am


----------



## Another Planet

turnera said:


> So, basically, grid's job in this marriage is to be an A#1 kiss-ass and let her do anything her little heart desires, and just sit there and pay for everything, so she doesn't 'have to' lie to him about seeing people he doesn't want _because of what they did to him_? I suppose he should let the OM come over and dance all over his bed with Mrs. grid, too? Cuz, you know, if he forbids it, that just 'forces' her to lie about her cheating.
> 
> Wow.


:grin2: right on! Sarcasm accepted :wink2:


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> Or he could reach out to her, try to understand where she is coming from, nurture those emotional bonds with her to the extent that she feels so close to him that she does not _want_ to displease him in any way.


WTF


----------



## 3Xnocharm

jld said:


> *But you do get how your wife may perceive this as controlling, adding to her already feeling that way about you?
> *
> I mean it's obviously your call, but you're a smart guy, and I am sure you want to consider all perspectives, even the ones that might make you a little uncomfortable initially.


Ok with this dumba$$ comment I am OUT!

Grid, you seriously need to consider having this thread moved into the CWI section where more people have actually dealt with being cheated on! (and yes, I was one who has been cheated on, just saying) Bullsh!t like jld is spewing here will only cause further damage if it is followed and folks in that section of TAM can really help you continue on a strong path.


----------



## LongWalk

I suggested that Grid go private a while ago. He declined and I gathered that he considered it therapeutic for her to read here. 

Grid's wife is wrapped in a warm blanket, sitting in the victim's chair on the upper deck of the SS Duplicity. No wonder she wants her toxic friend to keep her company. She knows Grid is going to disembark, with or without her.

Wonder how she is treating her children now?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Another Planet

jld said:


> It's a forum. You hear a variety of views.
> 
> And I don't think it is external controls that will keep grid safe. It is strengthening the emotional bonds with his wife.


His wife needs to do the stepping up to the plate to make things right. SHE needs to be the one to "strengthen the emotional bonds" with him.....but no she is spitting in his face by doing things like inviting a toxic woman that was involved in the affair to his house to continue rubbing the shiat she did in his face. That blatantly shows how little she respects him.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

gridcom said:


> I am going to refrain from posting anything rather small like my wife inviting her co-worker over. I'll be back when something significant happens
> 
> LETS GO METS


Oh, last thought...THIS is NOT something small! Not even close!


----------



## ButtPunch

Grid

Your wife is in love with another man. Painful but obvious. She doth not care that she
does things to hurt you. Why? Because I say again she doesn't care. Her and OM are still communicating
at work. This is way past letting some toxic friend over. You are not in any form of reconciliation. 
You are in limbo. 

When this happened to me my immediate response was Get The Fu*K Out and my kids are staying here. My ww had to go live in a hotel so I wouldn't kill her. Then she got her own apartment. If she wants someone else then he can have her. I then went completely dark and started the divorce. 

Somehow I am still married and my wife got the help and did the work she needed to do and it has nothing to do with what I did or didn't do. It's just the way the ball bounced.


----------



## MJJEAN

jld said:


> Sure, he could do that. He could back it up with a threat to divorce her, too, if he ever finds out she associated with pit vipers again.
> 
> Or he could reach out to her, try to understand where she is coming from, nurture those emotional bonds with her to the extent that she feels so close to him that she does not _want_ to displease him in any way.
> 
> Just two different approaches.


And now we visit reality where that approach convinces her she can do anything she damn well pleases and she does.


----------



## ButtPunch

3Xnocharm said:


> Ok with this dumba$$ comment I am OUT!
> 
> Grid, you seriously need to consider having this thread moved into the CWI section where more people have actually dealt with being cheated on! (and yes, I was one who has been cheated on, just saying) Bullsh!t like jld is spewing here will only cause further damage if it is followed and folks in that section of TAM can really help you continue on a strong path.


QFT


----------



## jld

Another Planet said:


> His wife needs to do the stepping up to the plate to make things right. SHE needs to be the one to "strengthen the emotional bonds" with him.....but no she is spitting in his face by doing things like inviting a toxic woman that was involved in the affair to his house to continue rubbing the shiat she did in his face. That blatantly shows how little she respects him.


I just don't think she is there yet, AnPl.

And if grid had to rely on her to do that, wouldn't he feel kind of dependent on her? 

If _he_ approaches _her_, *he* is the leader. 

Wouldn't that feel safer to someone who likely already feels he lost some control in the marriage?


----------



## jld

MJJEAN said:


> And now we visit reality where that approach convinces her she can do anything she damn well pleases and she does.


I don't think so. I do think she needs to feel some empathy from him for things to get emotionally tighter between them.

I understand that that is very difficult for a betrayed to initiate, though.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> I just don't think she is there yet, AnPl.
> 
> ?


Well no sh*t. She is about as far from there as you can get.


----------



## Another Planet

jld said:


> I just don't think she is there yet, AnPl.
> 
> And if grid had to rely on her to do that, wouldn't he feel kind of dependent on her?
> 
> If _he_ approaches _her_, *he* is the leader.
> 
> Wouldn't that feel safer to someone who likely already feels he lost some control in the marriage?


Deep breath.....in...out...

He is in no way shape or form ever responsible for the actions of another person as is no one is responsible for him. He is however responsible for the way he lets people treat him and the boundaries he allows them to cross.

He is definitely NOT responsible for if "she is there yet" or not, that crap does not matter to him. What does matter to him is how he does not want to be treated by her and her shiatty friends and lover who also apparently respect him as much as they respect the TP they used to wipe their ace this morning.

No woman has ever said and actually meant "you know I really respect you more since you let me fvck that dude at work, I love you that much more".


----------



## jld

Another Planet said:


> Deep breath.....in...out...
> 
> He is in no way shape or form ever responsible for the actions of another person as is no one is responsible for him. He is however responsible for the way he lets people treat him and the boundaries he allows them to cross.
> 
> He is definitely NOT responsible for if "she is there yet" or not, that crap does not matter to him. What does matter to him is how he does not want to be treated by her and her shiatty friends and lover who also apparently respect him as much as they respect the TP they used to wipe their ace this morning.
> 
> No woman has ever said and actually meant "you know I really respect you more since you let me fvck that dude at work, I love you that much more".


Agree that we can only be responsible for our own actions.

But I think, in reality, he will have to take into account where she is, emotionally and psychologically, whether they R or D. It is going to affect things.


----------



## ButtPunch

Another Planet said:


> Deep breath.....in...out...
> 
> He is in no way shape or form ever responsible for the actions of another person as is no one is responsible for him. He is however responsible for the way he lets people treat him and the boundaries he allows them to cross.
> 
> He is definitely NOT responsible for if "she is there yet" or not, that crap does not matter to him. What does matter to him is how he does not want to be treated by her and her shiatty friends and lover who also apparently respect him as much as they respect the TP they used to wipe their ace this morning.
> 
> No woman has ever said and actually meant "you know I really respect you more since you let me fvck that dude at work, I love you that much more".


That's why Grid needs to read MMSLP like yesterday.


----------



## TeddieG

turnera said:


> So, basically, grid's job in this marriage is to be an A#1 kiss-ass and let her do anything her little heart desires, and just sit there and pay for everything, so she doesn't 'have to' lie to him about seeing people he doesn't want _because of what they did to him_? I suppose he should let the OM come over and dance all over his bed with Mrs. grid, too? Cuz, you know, if he forbids it, that just 'forces' her to lie about her cheating.
> 
> Wow.


What turnera said. You guys can't get ANY better at blaming Grid than this stuff. jld, why are you channeling Dug? Can't he post for himself?


----------



## TeddieG

ConanHub said:


> This thread is like a mega disaster unfolding.
> 
> You might not like what you're seeing but you can't look away.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That proverbial car wreck where you really KNOW you MUST look away but you just can't stop craning your neck.


----------



## jld

He was working next to me. He does not post during the work day.


----------



## Decorum

Just checking in after a long hiatus. SSDD.

Grid are you a third born son or an only child?

Were you raised by your mom or grandmother?

Did you have an emotionally unavailable, and harsh or dominant father.

Just curious.

You have a very strong will, that has helped you survive, its a positive trait.

I really wish you and your family the best.
Take care.

.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ThreeStrikes

"Wife, I'm not OK with an enabler of your affair coming into my house. I'm sure you understand."

*Step 1: 180 and detach*


----------



## jld

gridcom said:


> Blames it on the way my father was verbally and occasionally physically abusive to my mother. Mimicking what I saw growing up even though I felt it was disgusting and felt sorry for my mother


For you, decorum. It is grid saying why his therapist thinks he was abusive to his wife.


----------



## ButtPunch

JLD

If he is so abusive, why in the world do you want them back together? Rarely if ever does 
an abuser change. Why aren't you telling her to head for the hills like all the other abuser
threads.


----------



## ButtPunch

ThreeStrikes said:


> "Wife, I'm not OK with an enabler of your affair coming into my house. I'm sure you understand."
> 
> *Step 1: 180 and detach*


Experience talking here.


----------



## MJJEAN

jld said:


> If _he_ approaches _her_, *he* is the leader.


No, if he approaches her under these circumstances, it makes him a supplicant.



jld said:


> I don't think so. I do think she needs to feel some empathy from him for things to get emotionally tighter between them.
> 
> I understand that that is very difficult for a betrayed to initiate, though.


It's not up to him to initiate. She did the damage. She is the one that needs to initiate and do the heavy lifting.

If a neighbor kid broke my window, lied about it, confessed, and generally behaved like a brat afterward, I'm not going to fix it and then bring the little hellion ice cream. I'm going to make the kid responsible for his actions and his poor behavior. I'm going to tell his parents and see that he is suitably disciplined so that he knows his behavior was completely unacceptable. After that, he'll be at my house with a broom and dust pan cleaning up the mess he made.


----------



## LongWalk

JLD,

I am pro make your marriage work. The MC or IC who told Grid that settling for 75 percent in marriage was not bad. Why?

Few marriages are super wonderful. When my second daughter was born my wife shared a room with a woman who had had a very difficult time. Her son was not on her breast but in some plastic box, being monitored because he was blue in the face when finally made it into the world. This woman felt like a failure compared with my ex who had a super easy time with D2.

Turns out she was a doctor herself. Her husband was professional musician - guitar teacher. We became friends. 

Both of them were nice people. However, she made a lot more money than him. She also was working on her PhD. I liked her but she was a bit of a know it all.

My then wife told me that their marriage was shaky. The husband had lost desire for her. Their marriage was sexless. She wept when she told my ex this.

Both of them were empathetic good people, but she knew what he was thinking and feeling before he said it. She did not mean to be disrespectful but she did not know how not to be the best girl in the class.

Her husband was successful. Besides teaching, he got gigs with opera and TV. So she was proud of him. But for sure there were cute smart women guitar students who would have considered sleeping with the teacher very exciting.

I don't think he cheated but I am sure she felt uneasy. As she worked in the hospital and also did her PhD research, she must have sacrificed family and hubby time. 

They worked things out in the end. Their marriage became solid again.

Could they have split and started over? Sure but the cost would have high. Everyone would have been hurt.

Sometimes just good enough will be a lot better or maybe a little worse. 

Throw an affair into troubled situation and suddenly good enough is light years away.

Grid's wife not only had sexual intercourse with OM numerous times — I mean let's be real she was in love and consummated it physically; she did not reach what is an emotional high point of her life and rush home to share the news with Grid; never and no way. Sexual intimacy in the context of intense love is private matter.

Now she finds herself thwarted. She is irritable and moody. Grid will accept this until Retrouvaille. After that she will have to return to earth, where there are bankruptcies, grubby condos, cable bills, medical insurance. Grid is not going to take care of it.

He will accept the divorce and move on. She is choosing this path.


----------



## Decorum

TeddieG said:


> THIS!!! :iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:
> 
> How do I know this? Because my H was an azzhole regularly (even when he was communicating from his space with the OW) but he was never MORE of an azzhole than when he was missing her. TOTALLY something jld would never get or expect or understand, and yet she lays into Gridcom like it is HIS fault?





jld said:


> For you, decorum. It is grid saying why his therapist thinks he was abusive to his wife.


The quote function is completely messing up here I dont know why.

Thanks JLD I have to admit I missed that, I scanned his posts to catch up from way back. 

My own (personal) experience is that you need that knowledge so you can identify and "quarteen" the unhealthy thought patterns and behaviors that it precipitates.

It takes some time but once you let that genie out of the bottle it brings much needed clarity on why you do what you do.

Grid, I am glad your therapist is on it. This is where the " work on yourself" mantra gets real and practical.

It is a life changing path and not an easy road to hoe in itself, all the harder when you are fighting for all you love and hold dear in life.

Everything is riding on you becoming a real, self directed person and not just a caricature of the negative behavior patterns circulating around in your neurons.

Again I do wish you well, 
take care.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Hey grid, I'm done with the silliness.

When does the retro retreat occur?


----------



## farsidejunky

November IIRC.


----------



## just got it 55

jld said:


> I don't think so. I do think she needs to feel some empathy from him for things to get emotionally tighter between them.
> 
> I understand that that is very difficult for a betrayed to initiate, though.


Yeah.... I don't think you understand this at all.

55


----------



## Another Planet

Some of this discussion has seriously turned into the twilight zone for me and I have no idea how some can even remotely positively relate to betraying partner.


----------



## Chuck71

I's gotsa question..... is this Grid's thread or jld's?

Think before you answer....


----------



## manfromlamancha

Wow, I have just caught up on this thread.

Grid, your comment on "if you won $400K" you would be divorced and also your comment on filing for bankruptcy, told me everything I need to know.

Not only is your heart definitely not in getting back into this marriage (which in my opinion is not a bad thing), your heart is actually in something else: sorting your financial problems out.

For now, this marriage is done (stick a fork in it). She is not showing any remorse. Still wants a divorce. There is no security in the marriage for her (because of the financial situation) and so she is ready to go. This shows her true colours. If your financial situation was better and she stayed, she would be staying for all the wrong reasons, so in a way your financial situation has done you a favour in exposing the real her.

You two have been struggling with these problems for some time now and it has manifested itself as you "abusing" her. In that context, I really don't know how supportive she has been in helping you get through the extreme stress of dealing with these financial challenges. Only you know what support she did and did not provide. She should have been supporting you too through this time.

In any case, you need to start working on two things post haste - the first is disentangling your self from your "wife" and letting her get on with her life. The second is a financial recovery/rescue plan and bankruptcy is one option.

Its going to be hard to focus on both of these which is evident in the way that this thread has proceeded. I believe you would have been a lot more decisive if you didn't have the financial problems to contend with. And this was confirmed in your "$400K" statement.

File for divorce and push it through with haste - then work on your financial problems - all this for YOUR WELL BEING!


----------



## LongWalk

Grid,

You wrote about how much your wife loved her job. What sort of education does she have? Did she graduate from college? 

Did you encourage her at the beginning?

She came home happy and talked about work a lot?

How long was she there before the one year of being in love with OM began?

Do you feel that you missed signs that she had too much of an emotional attachment to her colleagues? Not just OM, but the whole gang?

I suppose that you regret not forcing her to quit after Dday but even then you sensed the resistance to her leaving the job was enormous.

Frankly, the whole employment situation seems to have empowered her to psychologically check out. 

Do you remember when she stopped talking as much about work? Did she speak about her colleagues in general or keep the office gossip to herself?

How many of her colleagues are rooting for this workplace love affair to triumph?


----------



## Satya

Grid, 

Good luck with everything. I recommend you read all the good books people have been constantly recommending. You need some wisdom outside of the Internet, too. 

You can't sort out problems in chaotic noise, so find some quiet alone time to read and sort your battle plans. 

No one here is living your life, but they all have input drawn from experience or drawn from thought alone. I trust some advice has resounded with you and some has not. 

You've had a lot of attention and interest here, I hope it proves valuable and that the efforts of posters here are worthwhile to you. I will voluntarily remove mine and check back in 6 months to observe the developments (if I'm not banned first, that is).

All the best.


----------



## Sammy64

Chuck71 said:


> I's gotsa question..... is this Grid's thread or jld's?
> 
> Think before you answer....



jld


----------



## jld

Chuck71 said:


> I's gotsa question..... is this Grid's thread or jld's?
> 
> Think before you answer....


The reason I have figured so prominently in this thread is because I have a different perspective on this issue than many others on TAM. My focus is on prevention and healing root causes, and not punishment and protecting hurt pride.

On TAM we often hear that a BH is a victim, and that his wayward wife needs to heal him. Whatever happened before is only 50% his fault, but the affair is 100% hers. And to most posters it seems the affair is the Main Event, the only really truly bad thing, the origin of the trouble in the marriage. 

And the wayward wife is responsible for fixing it, by ceasing contact with the AP, being transparent with her husband the rest of her life, soothing him when a trigger arises, reassuring him of her love and devotion. She carries him by doing this "heavy lifting." 

This could work, if you have a woman who agrees and is willing to carry the man the rest of his life. But I don't think it gets to the root cause of the affair, and so may not prevent further cheating. 

I also wonder how appealing a man who needs to be carried in that way is to his wife. Does she find it attractive? Or does she just stay out of guilt, or financial necessity?

I can believe that some women are serial cheaters. I think someone mentioned once that there may be brain research going on regarding this particular question. 

I can also believe that some women are in basically happy marriages but are drawn into an affair by a more exciting or attractive man. It may not have anything to do with her husband.

But, imo, the majority of affairs by women, based on what I have read, are due to their emotional needs not being met by the husband. And that, imo, is what happened in grid's marriage.

Needs are unlikely to go unfulfilled forever. People are unlikely to accept starvation willingly as a lifestyle. People generally want to feel loved and understood by their partner, nurtured and respected. I doubt Mrs. Grid felt this way in her marriage. 

Her husband's failure to meet these needs left her vulnerable to an affair.

I often hear, "You're blaming the victim! Don't you see his pain? Whatever happened before the affair is only 50% his fault! The affair is 100% hers!"

I am sure it is a terrible feeling, knowing your partner gave in to temptation. I am sure it is a terrible letdown to find out that instead of remaining resolutely faithful, no matter how badly, in humbling retrospect, he may have treated her, she showed human weakness. She did not keep her husband safe from being hurt by her, when he trusted her to protect him from that kind of pain.

Regarding the choice to cheat being 100% Mrs.Grid's responsibility, I agree. The choice to cheat is still a choice. A gun was not put to her head. And even if it had been, she could have chosen death over disloyalty, right?

The benefit of taking 100% responsibility for the choice to cheat, or the choice to do anything, really, like being emotionally abusive to your wife, is that if it is 100% your choice, you have total control over preventing it from happening again. 

If you are in a different marriage, and temptation is there, you can step firmly back and say No. You can go to your husband and say, "You are not meeting my needs. I don't want to feel tempted. I am trying very hard to stay faithful to you. But I am human too. If you cannot step up, it might be better if we divorce. I don't want to feel empty inside and lonely all the time. And I sure do not want to cheat." 

The husband can choose to respond that he is not interested in working any harder to meet your needs. You can then decide if you are just going to steel yourself against cheating, or if it is time to divorce. It is up to you. So owning your actions, 100%, empowers you.

I personally think that a husband who loves you is going to start working to meet those needs. A proactive husband would have been working to find out and meet those needs before. A lazy husband would not put any time into it before or after. He might just blame you for whatever happens. 

It is almost like some men think that they are entitled to a wife's loyalty just by virtue of marrying her, without having to lift a finger afterwards. No matter how they treat her, she is obligated to keep his feelings and pride intact by remaining loyal. I think most religious institutions would agree. 

But that is not how human nature works.

Needs are going to be met eventually. It is wise to find a way to meet them that will keep both partners' feelings and pride from being hurt. I suggest transparency, and trust built through creating emotional bonds.

You are not going to keep your marriage safe through vars and locks on cell phones and computers and private investigators and nanny cams. You are in a much better position to safeguard your marriage by cultivating loyalty through making it safe for your partner to come to you with anything, knowing you are truly her safe harbor. 

If grid's wife had felt this way, I am convinced she never would have been disloyal to grid. If he had treated her with patience and kindness, respect and understanding, I do not think she would have been vulnerable to that affair. This may not be true for other women, but I think it is true for her. 

And this is what some men chafe against, that somehow an affair might be at least partly due to their own actions. Somehow that knowledge threatens their claimed victim status. Maybe they can no longer wear a white robe. Maybe they had a hand in their own pain.

For men who can face those possibilities, the way forward becomes at once easier and more difficult. It is easier because they see what they must do to restore the marriage. But it is difficult to set aside their own pain, pride, and self-justification to reach out to their wives in empathy and humility.

"Honey, I was not there for you. I blew you off, yelled at you, left you alone while I pursued my own interests. I did not make it safe for you to come to me. I expected you to be loyal regardless. I totally took you for granted, treated you like a possession. And then I got really mad and felt like a victim when my possession disobeyed her marital vows."

"I was a jerk. It was not right that you cheated, but it was not right that I treated you the way I did, either. If I had been different, I believe you would have been different, too."

"Now we need to fix this. I can't go back to being the way I was. You cannot go back to the other man. We need to figure out what we need from each other, and commit to meeting those needs going forward. We might stumble, but we are not going to fall again. Because this time we are going to be holding onto each other."


----------



## happy as a clam

I don't disagree with anything jld just posted regarding how a marriage should be.

The disagreement comes with proactive steps to take IN THE THROES of an affair. And make no mistake, Mrs. Grid is still in the midst of an affair. Even if she is not physically cheating any longer, her heart is still deep in it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ButtPunch

Ridiculous. Honey you've been pregnant for nine months and I haven't been getting the sex Iike I want so I have been banging someone else because you weren't meeting my needs at the moment. 

No one here teaches the BS to be a victim. If anything you are making the WS the victim. Tam teaches the BS to stay out of the drama triangle. To take all their energy and focus it on themselves. 

Almost every spouse on the planet has needs that aren't getting met all the time the entire marriage.
That's no excuse to go f+ck someone else.

Good grief I can't stop taking the bait. I think you are posting this bs for the attention.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Truthseeker1

happy as a clam said:


> I don't disagree with anything jld just posted regarding how a marriage should be.
> 
> The disagreement comes with proactive steps to take IN THE THROES of an affair. And make no mistake, Mrs. Grid is still in the midst of an affair. Even if she is not physically cheating any longer, her heart is still deep in it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's not that the BS is a saint its that the WS uses infidelity to cope....they destroy the BS and then justify it..it's blameshifting...and that will always be a tactic of some cheaters...JLD has outlined how to do that wonderfully and then gaslight the BS into taking the blame for at least part of the WSs affair..I swear the more I read stuff like that the more I become fond of RAs...


----------



## ButtPunch

Truthseeker1 said:


> It's not that the BS is a saint its that the WS uses infidelity to cope....they destroy the BS and then justify it..it's blameshifting...and that will always be a tactic of some cheaters...JLD has outlined how to do that wonderfully and then gaslight the BS into taking the blame for at least part of the WSs affair..I swear the more I read stuff like that the more I become fond of RAs...


Exactly Mrs. Grid doesn't even have to gaslight and blamshift Grid because JLD is doing it for him. She can focus on spending time with toxic friends.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

jld, if Mrs. grid were NOT working with and seeing her lover almost every day, I would be agreeing with you. 

But she IS. And she won't QUIT doing it.

Until that changes, the ONLY thing grid nicing her does is prove he's not worth giving her lover up for.


----------



## farsidejunky

happy as a clam said:


> I don't disagree with anything jld just posted regarding how a marriage should be.
> 
> The disagreement comes with proactive steps to take IN THE THROES of an affair. And make no mistake, Mrs. Grid is still in the midst of an affair. Even if she is not physically cheating any longer, her heart is still deep in it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


QFT.


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> jld, if Mrs. grid were NOT working with and seeing her lover almost every day, I would be agreeing with you.
> 
> But she IS. And she won't QUIT doing it.
> 
> Until that changes, the ONLY thing grid nicing her does is prove he's not worth giving her lover up for.


Grid could make himself worth giving him up for.

This is not out of his hands, Turnera. He has influence that he is not using.

He could turn off the game and get into his wife.


----------



## gridcom

happy as a clam said:


> I don't disagree with anything jld just posted regarding how a marriage should be.
> 
> The disagreement comes with proactive steps to take IN THE THROES of an affair. And make no mistake, Mrs. Grid is still in the midst of an affair. Even if she is not physically cheating any longer, her heart is still deep in it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I 100% agree with jld's post, however this here is 100% true and accurate and trumps everything else. 

In other words, the betrayed may have played a BIG role in putting the cheater in the mouth of the snake (VERY hotly debated on this thread but I believe it), but the betrayed alone cannot pull the cheater out of the mouth of the snake, no matter what they do, how they approach it, etc.

The betrayed can change, and be the kind, sincere person they should have been from the jump. But until the cheater starts to recognize on their own the damage they've caused and truly understand why everyone around them is either wounded and damaged (those closest to them) or appalled (their friends and peers who know), you are left with a betrayed spouse simply banging their head against a brick wall.

Almost 15 weeks later, and a roller coaster 15 weeks at that, and I can honestly say....like the title of this thread:

*My wife (still) thinks she's in love with a co-worker*
(no matter what she says)


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> Grid could make himself worth giving him up for.


Lol....what does this mean? You mean by groveling at her feet. 

Grid is worth it. Yeah he's got some codependency issues and probably doesn't handle his frustrations with his very immature wife and lashes out from time to time. 

She is not the only fish in the sea. There are responsible women out there. There are hard working women out there. There are LOYAL women out there. Your ww is doing you a favor you just don't see it yet. Don't lower yourself to JLDs manipulation tactics. 

However, work on the codependency because its a relationship killer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Grid, it takes time. But you can shorten that time. How about using that conversation I wrote out for you?

From Dug: "Her having had that affair shows she is weak. Why do you now expect her to be strong?"


----------



## jld

BP, you want grid's wife to be the dominant partner in the relationship, to carry him and make the marriage work. 

But she is not. Grid is, and he knows it.

Grid, you have to take your responsibilities as the stronger partner. Your wife cannot do it. 

Why do you resist?


----------



## turnera

gridcom said:


> *My wife (still) thinks she's in love with a co-worker*
> (no matter what she says)


Of course she does. She sees him all the time. Probably more than she sees you.


----------



## turnera

jld said:


> BP, you want grid's wife to be the dominant partner in the relationship, to carry him and make the marriage work.


Utter nonsense.

He only wants ONE thing from her at this point - to stop seeing OM.

And he has stated repeatedly that as soon as she does that, he is diving feet first into repairing the marriage. Himself.


----------



## gridcom

jld said:


> BP, you want grid's wife to be the dominant partner in the relationship, to carry him and make the marriage work.
> 
> But she is not. Grid is, and he knows it.
> 
> Grid, you have to take your responsibilities as the stronger partner. Your wife cannot do it.
> 
> Why do you resist?


I think I've done a much better job over the last three weeks specifically. And I'll continue to do my best. As long as she doesn't DO anything stupid, I can live with her SAYING stupid things (like wanting her co-worker over to the house). For now.

And I agree that it takes time and I agree I lack patience, BUT.... at some point this woman needs to stop acting like a victim, stop looking like a pulverized dear-in-the-headlights (or "dead wood" as my mother says) and take responsibility for her actions, which quite frankly she has yet to do on any level.

Yesterday was "good" if you define good as having a housemate who doesn't look at you like you are a piece of sh!t. 

The conversations you are asking me to have I have had. There have been a plethora variety of conversations over here, but none of it seems to matter.

My wife just went to work, and when she left I asked her to leave the fog there when she comes home later today. Snarky comment, but you know......that's just who I am, I guess.


----------



## jld

Present it this way:

"It will be easier to get over this if you do not see him regularly. Quit for now, and together we will find you a new job.

I know I was a jerk. But I am telling you, I am not going to be a jerk anymore. And I want you to call me on it just like everyone in our family and friend circle has called you on this affair.

We can fight this together. We can restore our family together. Our troubles are both of our faults, and they go beyond this affair. This affair might have been your doing, but I could have prevented it by treating you better. I have that on my conscience as much as you have the affair.

Honey, you're not alone. I am on your side, even if it has not always felt like it. I am with you. We are together. And together we can beat this."


----------



## gridcom

turnera said:


> Of course she does. She sees him all the time. Probably more than she sees you.


Nah. They only work together one day a week, and he works in a different area of the building. We are both in this house MOST of the time, which may be part of the problem. We are constantly together, almost literally.


----------



## jld

gridcom said:


> I think I've done a much better job over the last three weeks specifically. And I'll continue to do my best. As long as she doesn't DO anything stupid, I can live with her SAYING stupid things (like wanting her co-worker over to the house). For now.
> 
> And I agree that it takes time and I agree I lack patience, BUT.... at some point this woman needs to stop acting like a victim, stop looking like a pulverized dear-in-the-headlights (or "dead wood" as my mother says) and take responsibility for her actions, which quite frankly she has yet to do on any level.
> 
> Yesterday was "good" if you define good as having a housemate who doesn't look at you like you are a piece of sh!t.
> 
> The conversations you are asking me to have I have had. There have been a plethora variety of conversations over here, but none of it seems to matter.
> 
> My wife just went to work, and when she left I asked her to leave the fog there when she comes home later today. Snarky comment, but you know.....*that's just who I am, I guess*.


And if she says that seeing him is just who she is?

Grid, come on. You know she cannot change her heart upon a command from you. And if you are going to make harsh comments, her heart is only naturally going to seek warmth from whatever is left over from that affair.

You are the leader here. What would you think of a boss who was treating you the way you are treating her?

How would you like him to treat you if you had made a huge mistake that earned you shame and ostracism from the whole company?


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> The reason I have figured so prominently in this thread is because I have a different perspective on this issue than many others on TAM. My focus is on prevention and healing root causes, and not punishment and protecting hurt pride.
> 
> On TAM we often hear that a BH is a victim, and that his wayward wife needs to heal him. Whatever happened before is only 50% his fault, but the affair is 100% hers. And to most posters it seems the affair is the Main Event, the only really truly bad thing, the origin of the trouble in the marriage.
> 
> And the wayward wife is responsible for fixing it, by ceasing contact with the AP, being transparent with her husband the rest of her life, soothing him when a trigger arises, reassuring him of her love and devotion. She carries him by doing this "heavy lifting."
> 
> This could work, if you have a woman who agrees and is willing to carry the man the rest of his life. But I don't think it gets to the root cause of the affair, and so may not prevent further cheating.
> 
> I also wonder how appealing a man who needs to be carried in that way is to his wife. Does she find it attractive? Or does she just stay out of guilt, or financial necessity?
> 
> I can believe that some women are serial cheaters. I think someone mentioned once that there may be brain research going on regarding this particular question.
> 
> I can also believe that some women are in basically happy marriages but are drawn into an affair by a more exciting or attractive man. It may not have anything to do with her husband.
> 
> But, imo, the majority of affairs by women, based on what I have read, are due to their emotional needs not being met by the husband. And that, imo, is what happened in grid's marriage.
> 
> Needs are unlikely to go unfulfilled forever. People are unlikely to accept starvation willingly as a lifestyle. People generally want to feel loved and understood by their partner, nurtured and respected. I doubt Mrs. Grid felt this way in her marriage.
> 
> Her husband's failure to meet these needs left her vulnerable to an affair.
> 
> I often hear, "You're blaming the victim! Don't you see his pain? Whatever happened before the affair is only 50% his fault! The affair is 100% hers!"
> 
> I am sure it is a terrible feeling, knowing your partner gave in to temptation. I am sure it is a terrible letdown to find out that instead of remaining resolutely faithful, no matter how badly, in humbling retrospect, he may have treated her, she showed human weakness. She did not keep her husband safe from being hurt by her, when he trusted her to protect him from that kind of pain.
> 
> Regarding the choice to cheat being 100% Mrs.Grid's responsibility, I agree. The choice to cheat is still a choice. A gun was not put to her head. And even if it had been, she could have chosen death over disloyalty, right?
> 
> The benefit of taking 100% responsibility for the choice to cheat, or the choice to do anything, really, like being emotionally abusive to your wife, is that if it is 100% your choice, you have total control over preventing it from happening again.
> 
> If you are in a different marriage, and temptation is there, you can step firmly back and say No. You can go to your husband and say, "You are not meeting my needs. I don't want to feel tempted. I am trying very hard to stay faithful to you. But I am human too. If you cannot step up, it might be better if we divorce. I don't want to feel empty inside and lonely all the time. And I sure do not want to cheat."
> 
> The husband can choose to respond that he is not interested in working any harder to meet your needs. You can then decide if you are just going to steel yourself against cheating, or if it is time to divorce. It is up to you. So owning your actions, 100%, empowers you.
> 
> I personally think that a husband who loves you is going to start working to meet those needs. A proactive husband would have been working to find out and meet those needs before. A lazy husband would not put any time into it before or after. He might just blame you for whatever happens.
> 
> It is almost like some men think that they are entitled to a wife's loyalty just by virtue of marrying her, without having to lift a finger afterwards. No matter how they treat her, she is obligated to keep his feelings and pride intact by remaining loyal. I think most religious institutions would agree.
> 
> But that is not how human nature works.
> 
> Needs are going to be met eventually. It is wise to find a way to meet them that will keep both partners' feelings and pride from being hurt. I suggest transparency, and trust built through creating emotional bonds.
> 
> You are not going to keep your marriage safe through vars and locks on cell phones and computers and private investigators and nanny cams. You are in a much better position to safeguard your marriage by cultivating loyalty through making it safe for your partner to come to you with anything, knowing you are truly her safe harbor.
> 
> If grid's wife had felt this way, I am convinced she never would have been disloyal to grid. If he had treated her with patience and kindness, respect and understanding, I do not think she would have been vulnerable to that affair. This may not be true for other women, but I think it is true for her.
> 
> And this is what some men chafe against, that somehow an affair might be at least partly due to their own actions. Somehow that knowledge threatens their claimed victim status. Maybe they can no longer wear a white robe. Maybe they had a hand in their own pain.
> 
> For men who can face those possibilities, the way forward becomes at once easier and more difficult. It is easier because they see what they must do to restore the marriage. But it is difficult to set aside their own pain, pride, and self-justification to reach out to their wives in empathy and humility.
> 
> "Honey, I was not there for you. I blew you off, yelled at you, left you alone while I pursued my own interests. I did not make it safe for you to come to me. I expected you to be loyal regardless. I totally took you for granted, treated you like a possession. And then I got really mad and felt like a victim when my possession disobeyed her marital vows."
> 
> "I was a jerk. It was not right that you cheated, but it was not right that I treated you the way I did, either. If I had been different, I believe you would have been different, too."
> 
> "Now we need to fix this. I can't go back to being the way I was. You cannot go back to the other man. We need to figure out what we need from each other, and commit to meeting those needs going forward. We might stumble, but we are not going to fall again. Because this time we are going to be holding onto each other."


Excellent post jld and your description of what SHOULD happen in a marriage is exactly how my marriage is. I always tell the people I talk to that you need to take your head out of the sand and live life consciously. It would be fantastic if grid and his wife could get back to a point where they can have this type of marriage. Sadly you must also acknowledge that sometimes a spouse whether due to being betrayed by infidelity of by being betrayed by neglect doesn't want to look back. Sometimes there is just so much pent up anger and resentment that the individual doesn't want to the layers upon layers of hurtful memories and marital pain in order to get to the root of the problems. Sometimes they'd rather just move on. And if that is truly their decision then there is nothing the other spouse can do about it regardless of how much they would like to work on things. The one piece of your advice that I disagree with is that grid has influence over his wife. He does not. She has turned away from him and is not (currently) looking back. She has hardened her heart and there is no chisel, no hammer, no explosive in the world that is going to allow grid to get through. She is going to have to open herself up for their to be any chance to save this marriage. IMO, right now that slim possibility rests with Retrouville. Maybe when she is out of her comfort zone, away from her toxic friends and work influences she will uncover her ears and eyes and see things for how they really are. It may not be enough to save the marriage but hopefully they can work through the resentment enough to be good co parents for their children.

Additionally you have a misconception about what happens in a reconciliation borne from infidelity. The wife does not carry her husband for the rest of her life. She is not condemned to do the heavy lifting for eternity. Experts claim that it takes 2-5 years to heal from an affair and I have not found any evidence that this is faulty knowledge. It is a temporary power shift that is necessary to make the husband feel safe in his decision to give their marriage another chance. It is designed to counter the trust issues that have occurred due to the infidelity so that the couple can begin to work out their pre affair problems. I'm not sure where you got the idea that the affair is the origin of trouble in the marriage. On the contrary, what I often see is that there was trouble in the marriage before the affair but that the infidelity exacerbated the issues and complicated the process of healing the marriage. The phrase I often hear is that the affair muddied the waters.

One other thing I'd like to mention that may help you when you dispense advice in the future, especially to men. I think oftentimes you are confusing pride with honor. Even in today's mamby pamby world men are still taught honor and duty. It is not pride that motivated grid to try to reconcile with his wife, it is duty. Duty to his family, duty as a husband. And it is not pride that is changing his mindset from having to deal with a remorseless wife. It is honor. His wife cheated on him and when he admitted his faults and extended his arms in a very vulnerable way she spat at him in response. If he is now starting to detach because his honor calls him to do so I for one will not criticize him for that decision. Maybe you should look a little deeper when you are advising men to determine whether it is injured pride that they are displaying or if their honor has been challenged. The approaches are markedly different.


----------



## just got it 55

jld said:


> Present it this way:
> 
> "It will be easier to get over this if you do not see him regularly. Quit for now, and together we will find you a new job.
> 
> I know I was a jerk. But I am telling you, I am not going to be a jerk anymore. And I want you to call me on it just like everyone in our family and friend circle has called you on this affair.
> 
> We can fight this together. We can restore our family together. Our troubles are both of our faults, and they go beyond this affair. This affair might have been your doing, but I could have prevented it by treating you better. I have that on my conscience as much as you have the affair.
> 
> Honey, you're not alone. I am on your side, even if it has not always felt like it. I am with you. We are together. And together we can beat this."


JLD I like what have said here but here is the problem

Grid can say this in the sweetest most sincere way possible

Problem is Mrs. Grid just won't/can't hear it I believe this to be the case because she is still hung up on OM.

She clearly is not in love with her husband if this thread is to be fully understood (IF)

I believe you to be naive

Grid have you in 15 weeks seen a glimmer of hope ?

55


----------



## italianjob

jld said:


> The reason I have figured so prominently in this thread is because I have a different perspective on this issue than many others on TAM. My focus is on prevention and healing root causes, and not punishment and protecting hurt pride.


What you keep referring to as pride, a word you use in a contemptuos way to reduce it to a worthless and useless sentiment, is actually self-respect and self-esteem, something without which you can't really live a psychologically healthy life.



jld said:


> On TAM we often hear that a BH is a victim, and that his wayward wife needs to heal him. Whatever happened before is only 50% his fault, but the affair is 100% hers. And to most posters it seems the affair is the Main Event, the only really truly bad thing, the origin of the trouble in the marriage.
> And the wayward wife is responsible for fixing it, by ceasing contact with the AP, being transparent with her husband the rest of her life, soothing him when a trigger arises, reassuring him of her love and devotion. She carries him by doing this "heavy lifting."
> This could work, if you have a woman who agrees and is willing to carry the man the rest of his life. But I don't think it gets to the root cause of the affair, and so may not prevent further cheating.


Ceasing contact with the AP is the bare minimum to even talk about reconciliation, being transparent with her husband (or his wife in the case of a man) for the rest of her (his) life should be the norm in any marriage (visited or not by infidelity). None of the above qualifies as "heavy lifting". If those things are sacrifices there is no reason to stay married at all.
Rebuilding trust after a betrayal takes time and needs commitment and, yeah, also some sacrifice, that's just the way it is. 



jld said:


> I also wonder how appealing a man who needs to be carried in that way is to his wife. Does she find it attractive? Or does she just stay out of guilt, or financial necessity?


We may also wonder how attractive that man may find his wife knowing she let the OP have her way with her, or if he stays for the kids or to avoid a financially catastrophic divorce...



jld said:


> I can believe that some women are serial cheaters. I think someone mentioned once that there may be brain research going on regarding this particular question.
> I can also believe that some women are in basically happy marriages but are drawn into an affair by a more exciting or attractive man. It may not have anything to do with her husband.
> But, imo, the majority of affairs by women, based on what I have read, are due to their emotional needs not being met by the husband. And that, imo, is what happened in grid's marriage.


That's your view... Frankly, I don't agree with any of it. First, I think that the inner motivations are more similar between men and women, the difference is more in the way they will justify it to themselves rather than effective,IMO. 

My opinion is that, like in most things in life, there are minorities at the extremes. On one side we have people that will cheat any opportunity they get, like serial cheaters, on the other extreme we have people that will stand their ground no matter what temptation you throw their way. But the majority is in the middle, where we have people that may fall to temptation if the right person appears at a specific conjuncture in their life.

I Don't think it has much to do with emotional needs not met, it's a blurry concept anyway, a lot of times these emotional "needs" are simply "wants" and often not even reasonable ones .

I do think that people have a tendency of taking each other for granted with time, and this contributes to the conjuncture that I talked about above.

But it's not really a cause-effect relation, because if you really felt neglected in your marriage, the natural solution would be to bring it up and/or leave the relationship, not to cheat. It would be like killing your neighbors' pet dog because the neighbor park his car in a way that blocks your driveway. It's an uncalled for violent act reacting to something completely unrelated. Just like cheating.

I also think that most of the affairs (men and women alike) happen because people just give in to temptation. But nobody wants to be the bad guy, or can live with himself being the bad guy, so we just convince ourselves that we had a reason to do it. So 99% of the times neglect becomes NEGLECT and issues become ISSUES. We just rewrite history to feel better with ourselves. And we actually end up believing it. And if we are really really good we may end up convincing our partner that it's true.

Obviously, I don't really know if that happened in grid's case, but I suspect it could be at least partially true.

Lastly, while it is always a good idea to better yourself and to address your issues and what could be a threat to your message, I think the only moment when it SHOULDN'T be done (and that's why I don't agree with your approach) is in the midst of an infidelity.
Because it sends the message that cheating is a legit way to tackle marital problems, and that you will get results from your partners if you bang someone else. Human beings learn from experience and tend to replicate what works.

So your approach, jld, is prone, IMO, to cause more cheating in the future, not less. Because every time a problem arises in the marriage, cheating has proven to be a viable solution, if we were to apply your methods.

Just my two cents (well, actually, seen the length, maybe my two dollars  )


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> Grid, it takes time. But you can shorten that time. How about using that conversation I wrote out for you?
> 
> From Dug: "Her having had that affair shows she is weak. Why do you now expect her to be strong?"


Tell Dug this from me.

A marriage is only as strong as it's weakest link. If his wife is that weak then this marriage is destined to fail. At some point each spouse is going to be called upon to step up or the marriage will collapse.


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## LongWalk

Jld, you don't fully understand the dysfunctional mind because your life is in good order. All of us are on a continuum. That is why the rudest and most insightful stand up comics say outrageous stuff about what they do and think and everybody laughs. Everybody struggles with thoughts, impulses and urges that are not acceptable. 

We know there is a constant battle. And yet we are shocked when the Christian ministers and Catholic priests are caught systematically doing exactly what the _good book_ tells them not to. Temptation is a big word in Christianity, Buddhism, all religions.

Honcho, Teddie, theGoodGuy and several other posters, including BP for that matter, know what dysfunction really is.

Imagine Mrs Grid's mind is spinning. She did not like how Grid made economic decisions. He brought in good money but without consistent regularity. When she complained he dismissed her criticisms by pushing the responsibility to her. Her lack of competence was met with either criticism or dismissal by Grid. The decision to buy the blender as the wedding present is one example. Mrs Grid wanted to go the wedding and feel good because she gave a present and gained a social reward.

In a healthy marriage with better communication. She and Grid could have discussed this and put the decision into the context of responsibility. The two of them could have compensated for that expenditure in other ways. Rug sweeping and blame shifting these sorts of conflicts does damage. Figuring out who did the damage requires MC and IC, for normal people.

For dysfunctional people it gets harder. During this year of being in love with OM Mrs Grid stopped hassling Grid. She complained to OM about her crap marriage to her unengaged, controlling, bully husband. She did not tell OM that Grid loved his daughters. She told him about him watching the Mets and drinking beer. 

Mrs Grid liked OM listening to her and was willing to reward him, giving more and more of her heart. It was only natural she they become lovers. OM may or may not be a better lover technically than Grid. It is almost unimportant. He may like the Yankees and drinking beer but says he doesn't care about these things right now. He is busy being in love with her.

It could be that Mrs Grid has moments when she wants to reconnect with Grid. We are not privy to her inner thoughts. Maybe the idea of bankruptcy bothers her because she feels that one day she and Grid will fix that together. She imagines her life with Grid continuing even as she destroys it. Maybe she thinks bankruptcy is a trick in divorce process. We simply don't know.

Mrs Grid may think Retrouvaille will serve as the point from which resolution will come into the reconciliation. At the same time she may reason that having sex with OM is okay now because soon she is going to Retrouvaille. Alcoholics and heroin addicts get to shoot up one more time before they are going to clean up.

As long as Grid's wife is in love with OM, Grid's ability to reach her is limited. He can write her passionate notes but she is not interested. Why? She has cuckolded him. By demeaning him over a year he has become unattractive.

Wayward spouse are sometimes surprized that their former BS can find new partners. To Mrs Grid her husband is the last man on earth that anyone would want. In 8 months time if Grid starts dating a cute younger, prettier woman, Mrs Grid will be bemused, dumbfounded and incredulous. She may discover remorse and empathy at that point. We don't know.

Mrs Grid's dysfunction may be a temporary period of madness. She may also spiral out of control. We don't know her that well.

To avoid bleeding out emotionally, Grid needs to 180 her.


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## TeddieG

From jld: "On TAM we often hear that a BH is a victim, and that his wayward wife needs to heal him."

I complete take issue with this and call BS. I have never seen anyone write this or say this. I as a betrayed spouse do not feel I am a victim. 

This is such an insulting comment to make. IF two people want to reconcile for the right reasons and have a REAL reconciliation, both have to be in it. No person is responsible for accepting the fault of another person's cheating. And it is very very common for cheating spouse to WANT to make things right and come home but they don't for fear that they've done too much damage. 

YOU keep talking to Grid as if he is victimizing his cheating wife because he can't get her to the table for reconciliation, to convince her to renew her commitment to him and the family, and what you don't get is, while they are in the affair fog, the recommendation of the 180 and detaching and not talking about the relationship is spot on. Keep talking to them about "us" and the relationship and 'are you ever going to come home' just pushes them away and more deeply into the arms of the affair partner, and closer to divorce court (oh, wait, we're only four months in to Grid's experience and Mrs. G already filed!! wonder how THAT happened?) and I believe that's why he has tried to so hard to do that, along with the fact that he seems to desperately want to reconcile this relationship, for perhaps a host of reasons. As others may or may not have pointed out, you absolve Mrs. Grid from all responsibility or accountability for her own actions and shift the blame to Grid. Your posts are a primer, as I said before, for women interested in cheating on their husbands and gaslighting them all the way to the bank. 

No one can really examine their motives and heal themselves enough to make decisions about what they REALLY want to do without detaching and stepping back and addressing their own emotional responses and sorting out their options and most of all, choosing their own self-respect and self-worth. You wouldn't MARRY someone who didn't respect you and honor your values, so would you let someone continue in a marriage with you who trampled all over them? And the spouse married us because we are people of worth and value and self-respect; when they see that evaporate from our responses to them in their affair fog, then neither of the spouses are now who they were when the vows were made.

I am the first to say that while filing for divorce as a way of getting the WS's attention doesn't feel comfortable to some, especially in the heat of the emotional response to the discovery of infidelity, and the awareness that this step may have ramifications for one's future, I DO recommend detachment and non-engagement on the issue of the relationship; the WORST thing to do is to engage somebody in an affair fog about the nature of your own relationship with him or her because that is just pressure and sends them running into the arms of the AP or to divorce court. What you can do is set boundaries and limits, and a whole host of other things, like making financial preparation for the worst case scenario (I did, and that's why my divorce is not as traumatic as it might have been, including five years ago when he filed but bailed on the d). 

But consider this: if grid followed your advice, questioned her constantly about her feelings and her motives and her commitment to the relationship, it is no wonder his ex ran to a lawyer to file. They RUN. They have to see and feel a response through boundaries and detachment. 

I cannot believe that you really think that anyone here feels like a victim. Yes, our hearts were pulled from our chests and stomped into a million pieces, the person we trusted violated our trust, and the person we planned to share the rest of our lives with took a detour and left us in a heap on the floor with all the responsibilities we jointly committed to. That makes people wounded, injured, hurt, but not victims.


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## turnera

grid, if you're giving snarky remarks to your wife, STOP IT. Control yourself. You know better. Apologize for the snark when she returns. That's stuff you can own. If you're not communicating with her, fix that. Tell her how you feel, without it spilling over to into begging. Explain how you'd like things to turn out and what you're willing to take responsibility for doing, but in the same breath make it clear you're ready to move on if she doesn't have an epiphany after Retrouvaille, because you both deserve more than that. And let her in on whatever therapy you're going through to remove abusiveness in your soul. (you ARE in therapy for it, right?)

You can have discussions with her without anger and snark wherein you share your goals but also show your unwillingness to share HER. And I'm not talking about a sit-down where are we going discussion. I'm talking about day to day one-minute conversations that are just part of life, in which you can slide in the important stuff so she sees where you are going, that you ARE willing to be a better man for her and the kids, but you still respect yourself enough to not beg her home.


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## ButtPunch

jld said:


> BP, you want grid's wife to be the dominant partner in the relationship, to carry him and make the marriage work.
> 
> But she is not. Grid is, and he knows it.
> 
> Grid, you have to take your responsibilities as the stronger partner. Your wife cannot do it.
> 
> Why do you resist?


Mrs.Grid is the dominant partner by far. Whoever wants the relationship the least is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Another Planet

jld said:


> Grid could make himself worth giving him up for.
> 
> This is not out of his hands, Turnera. He has influence that he is not using.
> 
> He could turn off the game and get into his wife.


You know why what you say bothers me soooo much jld is because all this blaming grid stuff saying he needs to do this or that much more for his wife to make HER more interested in him then she wouldn't cheat load of crap you are spewing happened to me. See I didn't even know my wife cheated until after I divorced her but for the prior years and even our entire relationship I went out of my way to spoil her and to treat her like a princess, the last few years she got new clothes and jewelry all the time I stopped working so much so I could take her out to lunch while the kids were at school, I was home to pick kids up and drop off to and from school...etc. 
Guess what? She still cheated...and I still divorced her, again even before I knew she cheated. Why? Because she treated me like crap even though I did everything you would think a woman would want of her husband. And she cheated because she is a selfish and unhappy person, I could not change her no matter how hard I tried...she was still a bad person.

And I and so many others know from first hand experience that what you say DOES NOT work. 
I see it all around me with friends and family, even business associates over the years come to me and tell me "man my wife and I haven't touched each other in months and I can't remember the last time we had sex..."...and you know what?! Almost every time I hear it I also hear about how much they have tried to make her happy and how much they are sacrificing about their wants and needs to try to make her happy again. 

My best friend shut his successful 6figure business down 5 years ago when him and his wife had a daughter so he could stay home and raise her because his wife didn't want to. He makes her breakfast, packs her lunch, and makes dinner every single day. He cleans house, does all the shopping, domestic duties etc. He sleeps on the couch because he doesn't want to disturb her with his light snoring.....
Guess what?! His wife is still a miserable unhappy selfish person.

My point...some people are just going to be that way and it is absolutely 100% not your responsibility for their lack of integrity.


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## TeddieG

From LongWalk: "Alcoholics and heroin addicts get to shoot up one more time before they are going to clean up."

THIS!! My h left our reconciliation for one more hit every time he faced mortality. He did a great job of working on his physical issues, FINALLY, after a heart attack. He saw another urologist for a second opinion and avoided radical castrating surgery when his original urologist kept saying the "C" word. He saw a cardiologist and an aneurysm was found. Rather than being grateful that medical science is so advanced and he has good insurance, he became obsessed with the fact that his body was failing him and not participating in his Peter Pan scenario, and when he woke up on the ventilator and thought he was going to suffocate, he went back to OW for a hit. His addiction fed, he came home again only to go with me to my mother's funeral and stare mortality in the face yet again, and left, mentally and emotionally, the day we put her in the ground, for another hit. 

His addiction, though, requires payment, and after his surgery she demanded he commit to her and marry her, at which point he had to fess up he wasn't divorced. She upped the ante and he folded in the great poker game of life. It bothered neither of them that he was married, it bothered his OW not at all that she was shagging a married man, and all she saw was the original motivation of $$$$ signs, in the form of his retirement check. That's her payment for feeding his addiction. And he'll be paying for it for a long long time. 

If the situation were reversed, and I were a male with a cheating spouse doing this for the same reasons, you really think I could have any control over it? Affair fog is an addiction. The cheating spouse LOVES the high from the swooning, the desire, the illicit aspects of it all, and the drama. My h LOVES the drama of his alcoholic OW because his feeds his Knight in Shining Armor complex and in the throes of his depression makes him feel SOMETHING, which makes him feel alive. But he is, as LongWalk points out, sacrificing his own needs (for that one, for the ability to make that broken appendage stand up once again) and his health to make that woman happy, which she doesn't capable of, and gives up more and more of himself and his own well being to acquire that hit to feed his addiction, and he shells out money for alcohol to feed hers. 

It's not my job to make him healthy. It's not Grid's job to make his wife healthy again, if she ever was. 

jld, the one-size-fits-all advice just doesn't apply to the variables in any given situation.


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## jld

ButtPunch said:


> Mrs.Grid is the dominant partner by far. Whoever wants the relationship the least is.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He has much more power to effect positive change than she does. At this point, the best she could do is put the brakes on destroying, or at least severely wounding, her life. She cannot carry him, BP, when she cannot even carry herself.

I doubt grid sees himself as the submissive in the relationship. 

Though, I wish he were a stronger dominant. Reconciliation would be going much faster.


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## Another Planet

gridcom said:


> I 100% agree with jld's post, however this here is 100% true and accurate and trumps everything else.
> 
> In other words, the betrayed may have played a BIG role in putting the cheater in the mouth of the snake (VERY hotly debated on this thread but I believe it), but the betrayed alone cannot pull the cheater out of the mouth of the snake, no matter what they do, how they approach it, etc.
> 
> *The betrayed can change, and be the kind, sincere person they should have been from the jump. But until the cheater starts to recognize on their own the damage they've caused and truly understand why everyone around them is either wounded and damaged (those closest to them) or appalled (their friends and peers who know), you are left with a betrayed spouse simply banging their head against a brick wall.*
> 
> Almost 15 weeks later, and a roller coaster 15 weeks at that, and I can honestly say....like the title of this thread:
> 
> *My wife (still) thinks she's in love with a co-worker*
> (no matter what she says)


Spend your energy making yourself a good person for yourself, your kids, and maybe the next partner in your life and NOT for your wife.

Get that divorce pushed through, you would be surprised even once you eliminate the feelings how hard and long it still takes.


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## jld

bfree said:


> Sadly you must also acknowledge that sometimes a spouse whether due to being betrayed by infidelity of by being betrayed by neglect doesn't want to look back. Sometimes there is just so much pent up anger and resentment that the individual doesn't want to the layers upon layers of hurtful memories and marital pain in order to get to the root of the problems. Sometimes they'd rather just move on.


If she had her own full-time job with benefits, I might agree with this, bfree. But she does not. And until she does, reconciliation is in her best interests.

And even with that job, I still think reconciliation is in the best interests of her kids. And she and her husband could grow tremendously by humbling themselves and learning empathy for each other.



> The one piece of your advice that I disagree with is that grid has influence over his wife. He does not. She has turned away from him and is not (currently) looking back. She has hardened her heart and there is no chisel, no hammer, no explosive in the world that is going to allow grid to get through. She is going to have to open herself up for their to be any chance to save this marriage.


He can open her, bfree. Any dominant male can do that to his submissive female. And I think that is the dynamic in their marriage.

Now, if I am wrong, if he is indeed the submissive, then I would agree with everything the rest of you are saying. If she is truly the dominant, then she does need to pick him up and carry him, reach out to him in empathy and with warmth, lick his wounds from her infidelity, and all around make him feel safe and protected and reassured, for however it long it takes for him to heal.



> Additionally you have a misconception about what happens in a reconciliation borne from infidelity. The wife does not carry her husband for the rest of her life. She is not condemned to do the heavy lifting for eternity. Experts claim that it takes 2-5 years to heal from an affair and I have not found any evidence that this is faulty knowledge. It is a temporary power shift that is necessary to make the husband feel safe in his decision to give their marriage another chance. It is designed to counter the trust issues that have occurred due to the infidelity so that the couple can begin to work out their pre affair problems. I'm not sure where you got the idea that the affair is the origin of trouble in the marriage. On the contrary, what I often see is that there was trouble in the marriage before the affair but that the infidelity exacerbated the issues and complicated the process of healing the marriage. The phrase I often hear is that the affair muddied the waters.


Well, I agree that his abuse precipitated the affair. 

Again, if he is the submissive partner, then you are right that it is her job to make him feel safe.



> One other thing I'd like to mention that may help you when you dispense advice in the future, especially to men. I think oftentimes you are confusing pride with honor.


Oh, I think it is very much pride we are talking about here, bfree. 

Honor killings are pride killings. Male pride sometimes requires the _death_ of females, apparently.


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## LongWalk

jld do you remember what it's like to be in love? A person who is in love thinks about their love object night and day.

If Grid stopped watching Mets games and drinking beer, do you think she would even notice?

Everything she is doing is blocking him out. Most of the buttons on the remote control in her brain go to thoughts outside of her family life.

Grid hasn't said too much about her performance as mom, but you can be sure is also disconnected from her children. D10 is suffering. Mrs Grid cannot kick her habit yet.


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## jld

LongWalk said:


> jld do you remember what it's like to be in love? A person who is in love thinks about their love object night and day.
> 
> If Grid stopped watching Mets games and drinking beer, do you think she would even notice?
> 
> Everything she is doing it blocking him out. Most of the buttons on the remote control in her brain go to thoughts outside of her family life.
> 
> Grid hasn't said too much about her performance as mom, but you can be sure is also disconnected from her children. D10 is suffering. Mrs Grid cannot kick her habit yet.


He is blocking himself out of her life, LW.

And he is completely capable of changing that.

I truly do not understand why you think this woman is so powerful.


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## Another Planet

jld said:


> *He has much more power to effect positive change than she does*. *At this point, the best she could do is put the brakes on destroying, or at least severely wounding, her life*. *She cannot carry him*, BP, when she cannot even carry herself.
> 
> I doubt grid sees himself as the submissive in the relationship.
> 
> Though, *I wish he were a stronger dominant*. Reconciliation would be going much faster.


He has much more power to effect positive change than she does?!

At this point, the best she could do is put the brakes on destroying, or at least severely wounding, her life?!

She cannot carry him?! 

You wish he was a stronger dominant?!

Every single thing you have said here is placing her in the victim seat and him in the blame seat.


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## jld

Another Planet said:


> He has much more power to effect positive change than she does?!
> 
> At this point, the best she could do is put the brakes on destroying, or at least severely wounding, her life?!
> 
> She cannot carry him?!
> 
> You wish he was a stronger dominant?!
> 
> Every single thing you have said here is placing her in the victim seat and him in the blame seat.


The dominant partner takes responsibility for the marriage, AnPl. The buck stops with him (or, if it is the wife who is the dominant, with her). That is just how it is.


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## ButtPunch

Since this thread is now using mind reading. How about this. Maybe Mrs. Grid is really immature and selfish.Not pulling her weight by working and not meeting Grids needs. Grid becomes resentful because Mrs. G isn't holding her weight in the marriage. Grid begins to lash out emotionally but doesn't leave because of his codependency.

The rift begins and Mrs. G has an affair rather than working on her problems. She then begins to ignore most all of Grids needs. Grid is hurt and confused and lashes out the only way he knows how by verbally cornering her. She now uses this as an excuse to maintain her affair and villify Grid.

This whole scenario is similar to the mind reading going on in this thread. I bet there is some truth to it but who knows.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Another Planet

jld said:


> The dominant partner takes responsibility for the marriage, AnPl. The buck stops with him (or, if it is the wife who is the dominant, with her). That is just how it is.


A marriage is two people putting in 100% to their relationship together, not one is more responsible than the other...otherwise it is controlling and abusive. That is just how it is :grin2:


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## bfree

jld said:


> If she had her own full-time job with benefits, I might agree with this, bfree. But she does not. And until she does, reconciliation is in her best interests.
> 
> *Yes, a very logical thought. But is she thinking logically right now? You yourself have stated that she is not thinking clearly. So which is it?*
> 
> And even with that job, I still think reconciliation is in the best interests of her kids. And she and her husband could grow tremendously by humbling themselves and learning empathy for each other.
> 
> *Again, she is not thinking clearly is she? Why do you expect her to do something you have already stated she cannot do due to her confusion thinking.*
> 
> He can open her, bfree. Any dominant male can do that to his submissive female. And I think that is the dynamic in their marriage.
> 
> *She is not his female anymore. Do you not understand that? In her mind she belongs to her lover now.*
> 
> Now, if I am wrong, if he is indeed the submissive, then I would agree with everything the rest of you are saying. If she is truly the dominant, then she does need to pick him up and carry him, reach out to him in empathy and with warmth, lick his wounds from her infidelity, and all around make him feel safe and protected and reassured, for however it long it takes for him to heal.
> 
> *What you are failing to grasp is that their marriage dynamic is no longer in play. She broke the marriage. She stepped outside it. Dominance and submission no longer applies. "Lick his wounds?" Really?*
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I agree that his abuse precipitated the affair.
> 
> *It set the stage for an affair to occur. Absolutely. However she did have other options.*
> 
> Again, if he is the submissive partner, then you are right that it is her job to make him feel safe.
> 
> *Here we go with the submissive talk again. My wife wants to slap you silly right now. lol*
> 
> Oh, I think it is very much pride we are talking about here, bfree.
> 
> Honor killings are pride killings. Male pride sometimes requires the _death_ of females, apparently.
> 
> *Obviously you have no concept of male honor if this is your response. Please elaborate as to the difference between pride and honor if you will. Then we can discuss it further.*


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## LongWalk

Jld,

Grid's wife is only powerful relative to Grid. In relation to the rest of the world she is a person of little consequence.


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## bfree

jld said:


> He is blocking himself out of her life, LW.
> 
> And he is completely capable of changing that.
> 
> I truly do not understand why you think this woman is so powerful.


What power do you feel we are mistakenly attributing to her. Does she not have the power to change her own life if she wishes? Does she not have the power to divorce grid? Does she not have the power of self determination? She has obviously wielded the power of divorce. She has obviously wielded the power of choice by giving her own body to another man. She has obviously wielded the power of self determination by refusing to leave her current employment whether it be to address the family finances or to establish NC. What more power does she need?


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## jld

LongWalk said:


> Jld,
> 
> Grid's wife is only powerful relative to Grid. In relation to the rest of the world she is a person of little consequence.


She is not even powerful in relation to grid, LW.

LW, this is one little lost woman standing on what may best be described as an island. I am asking grid to land his plane with relief supplies on it and pay her a visit. 

He does not have to pick her up and strap her into the seat and fly her out. But if he visits enough, and supplies her with the food of empathy and kindness, I think she will ask him at some point if she can strap herself into the seat and fly back to the mainland with him.


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## ConanHub

I think Grid has shown weakness. He should have spanked the hell out of her or divorced her long ago.

She is an idiot brat and people like that think with their ass which is why she needs a few good swats.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub

I also don't think he should compete with OM for her.

No need to lower himself.

It would be like two mongrels fighting over a regurgitated piece of grizzle.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ButtPunch

If Mrs.G would have just been a good wife and met her husbands needs none of this would have happened. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

Jld, my wife wants to say something.

Mrs bfree: jld, you would no doubt consider me submissive in my relationship with my husband. However if we were to meet out in public, submissive is the last word you would use to describe me. I choose to allow my husband to take control of our relationship in many respects. However I also demand respect. I insist that I be consulted on all matters pertaining to our family and anything in my sphere of influence. And because I choose to be what you would term the submissive partner I can also choose not to be. It is not some personality trait that forces my submissiveness. It is not some biological imperative that places me on my knees bowing down to some almighty male dominance. It is my choice, my self determination and since it is my choice I can change it. If my husband was to suddenly become abusive toward me you can be damned sure I would stand up for myself. If he were to begin neglecting my needs he is no doubt aware that I would take care of my own needs and he would suffer in the process. Jld, your words are insulting and I dare say demeaning to women. We can vote now. We can own property. We can determine our own path without a man to guide us. If we choose to allow a man to lead us he should be damned lucky we grant him that privilege.


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## jld

No, she is not thinking logically right now, Bfree. That is why I am asking grid to do it for both of them.

I am also asking him to do the things that I think could clear away the fog. If he feeds her like the OM used to, and in some ways the way the memories and warm feelings still do, she will turn back to grid. If grid does not, the marriage is likely to fail. She is not strong enough to save it.

She is still grid's. He has influence, which he all but refuses to use. He could start by approaching her with empathy. But I don't think he will be able to do that without a shift in his own heart. I am not sure if he is lacking love for her, or his pride is too strong, or both.

She is very weak, hence the affair. If she were strong, she might have approached her husband or just steeled herself against the other man.

Your wife sounds like a domme, Bfree. 

I don't see a difference between pride and honor for men in the way you used it, Bfree. That is why I used the example of honor killings.

As I think about it, though, I think honor could refer to positive pride, pride that lifts a man and helps him better serve his community, including his family. It challenges him to improve himself, to become less selfish and lazy, more noble and altruistic.

I think the concept of pride often has a negative context, though, as in not wanting to look weak to others. I think that is what pride means in the context of a man's pride when his wife has had an affair.


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> If Mrs.G would have just been a good wife and met her husbands needs none of this would have happened.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But she is not a domme, BP.


----------



## jld

bfree said:


> Jld, my wife wants to say something.
> 
> Mrs bfree: jld, you would no doubt consider me submissive in my relationship with my husband. However if we were to meet out in public, submissive is the last word you would use to describe me. I choose to allow my husband to take control of our relationship in many respects. However I also demand respect. I insist that I be consulted on all matters pertaining to our family and anything in my sphere of influence. And because I choose to be what you would term the submissive partner I can also choose not to be. It is not some personality trait that forces my submissiveness. It is not some biological imperative that places me on my knees bowing down to some almighty male dominance. It is my choice, my self determination and since it is my choice I can change it. If my husband was to suddenly become abusive toward me you can be damned sure I would stand up for myself. If he were to begin neglecting my needs he is no doubt aware that I would take care of my own needs and he would suffer in the process. Jld, your words are insulting and I dare say demeaning to women. We can vote now. We can own property. We can determine our own path without a man to guide us. If we choose to allow a man to lead us he should be damned lucky we grant him that privilege.


Hello, Mrs. Bfree. 

Some women may choose a submissive role. But some women truly _are_ submissive. They cannot change it anymore than they can change the color of their eyes. 

I think Mrs. Grid is one of these women.


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> Hello, Mrs. Bfree.
> 
> Some women may choose a submissive role. But some women truly _are_ submissive. They cannot change it anymore than they can change the color of their eyes.
> 
> I think Mrs. Grid is one of these women.


Mrs bfree: why do you believe Mrs grid or any woman for that matter doesn't have a choice? How do you know that Mrs grid has not simply revoked grids leadership card? How do you know she didn't just make a choice? What special insight do you have that nobody else does?


----------



## farsidejunky

bfree said:


> Mrs bfree: why do you believe Mrs grid or any woman for that matter doesn't have a choice? How do you know that Mrs grid has not simply revoked grids leadership card? How do you know she didn't just make a choice? What special insight do you have that nobody else does?


Tell Mrs. Bfree I expect to see her own user name soon...


----------



## Chuck71

ButtPunch said:


> Ridiculous. Honey you've been pregnant for nine months and I haven't been getting the sex Iike I want so I have been banging someone else because you weren't meeting my needs at the moment.
> 
> No one here teaches the BS to be a victim. If anything you are making the WS the victim. Tam teaches the BS to stay out of the drama triangle. To take all their energy and focus it on themselves.
> 
> Almost every spouse on the planet has needs that aren't getting met all the time the entire marriage.
> That's no excuse to go f+ck someone else.
> 
> Good grief I can't stop taking the bait. I think you are posting this bs for the attention.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


See...... BP, you have read a lot of threads and have learned from them. One thing Yoda always said

in the beginning of any quagmire is both parties have to own their POS tendencies. Until then...

there is nothing but hollowed out hope. I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "bait" but bait is

only good if it is taken. 

It never ceases to amaze me.... some people are hard core convinced their way is the "only" way....

you can spot them easily.... make a subtle comment opposed to their way and WHOAAAA


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Oh good lord. Submissive woman? You ARE now grasping for straws. 

She is completely the opposite of submissive, even in the loosest definition. Heck a submissive woman would have taken the abuse and grid wouldn't be posting here. Submissive women do not file for divorce, do not keep in contact with their AP, when discovered do not tell their husband to back off and do not dictate how reconciliation or separation is going to be. She hasn't been submissive since she started talking to OM and consummated their love. Even if you attempt to argue she was submissive, all of her actions in the last three months are very assertive, dominant and *logical.*


----------



## jld

bfree said:


> Mrs bfree: why do you believe Mrs grid or any woman for that matter doesn't have a choice? How do you know that Mrs grid has not simply revoked grids leadership card? How do you know she didn't just make a choice? What special insight do you have that nobody else does?


Anything I say is just my own opinion, just like anyone else on the forum. 

I don't believe in the concept of "revoking a leadership card" or the general idea of "backing off" to "allow" a man to be dominant. To me, that is a domme letting her male sub pretend to be dominant.

A genuine dominant . . . dominates. He earns the respect and trust of others because he is genuinely strong in himself. He does not need other people to "give him a chance." They listen to him because they know what he says is true and can thus benefit them, even if it also costs them some pride and some hard work.

I think Mrs. Grid is a genuine submissive. I think grid is a dominant. A weak dominant relative to some others, but a dominant nonetheless. 

Otherwise he would react emotionally to my posts.


----------



## LongWalk

jld,

Let's apply your logic to another couple: football star
Johnny Manziel and his model girlfriend Colleen Crowley. The two of the were stopped by police because they were pulled over at the side of road in a alcohol fuelled physical altercation.

I don't follow professional football anymore because I am not in the US, but know Manziel is a guy upon whom there are romantic hopes. His fans want him to succeed. The police could have nailed with a blood alcohol test but they did not want to be responsible for ending story of a hero. His girlfriend could have nailed him by filing charges but she declined.



> Johnny Manziel's girlfriend Colleen Elizabeth Crowley is speaking out after newsnet5.com exclusively obtained a police report regarding a domestic dispute between the couple.
> 
> In an Instagram post, Crowley said the couple is "all good," but still appreciates the witnesses who called the police.
> 
> "Anytime anyone sees a guy and a girl arguing on the side of a road they should definitely stop, you never know what that could be," she writes."Fortunately it was just an argument, it was private, and we are all good!"


From this we can conclude that Manziel is dysfunctional. He has been in rehab. He is an alcoholic. His girlfriend is probably also dysfunctional. They were attracted to each other's dysfunction. I could be wrong about this. Perhaps she is trying to fix him so that she can have his babies. 

Here are two approaches she can take:

1) She can give him more sex. Crouch like a stool so he has some place to put his feet while leans back in the victims chair. She can pour the booze out. Update the apps on his smart phone.

or

2) She can pack her bags and go back to university and finish her degree. As to their relationship she should just tell him she doesn't know. 

Which of these two approaches is more likely to be successful?

Infidelity is usually dysfunctional behavior. That is why post D relationships between cheaters have a high failure rate. For Grid as a man, his wife's affair is humiliating, demeaning like no other experience. But Grid is able to distance himself and see that she is in the so-called fog. The fact that he has not rushed to divorce is already a big statement on his part.

And back to solution number 3 for Manziel and Crowley.

Manziel is sorry for being a drunken jerk, so he makes it up to her by buying a fat diamond ring and proposing to her. She accepts and they live dysfunctionally ever after.


----------



## jld

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Oh good lord. Submissive woman? You ARE now grasping for straws.
> 
> She is completely the opposite of submissive, even in the loosest definition. Heck a submissive woman would have taken the abuse and grid wouldn't be posting here. Submissive women do not file for divorce, do not keep in contact with their AP, when discovered do not tell their husband to back off and do not dictate how reconciliation or separation is going to be. She hasn't been submissive since she started talking to OM and consummated their love. Even if you attempt to argue she was submissive, all of her actions in the last three months are very assertive, dominant and *logical.*


She took it for years. She finally had enough.

I think she has some self-respect. She is not a doormat. 

But she did not have enough strength to confront grid or leave him. She is a weak submissive, like her husband has been a weak dominant.

I am trying to help him become a stronger dominant. I would love to help her become a stronger submissive, too.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

jld said:


> Anything I say is just my own opinion, just like anyone else on the forum.
> 
> I don't believe in the concept of "revoking a leadership card" or the general idea of "backing off" to "allow" a man to be dominant. To me, that is a domme letting her male sub pretend to be dominant.
> 
> A genuine dominant . . . dominates. He earns the respect and trust of others because he is genuinely strong in himself. He does not need other people to "give him a chance." They listen to him because they know what he says is true and can thus benefit them, even if it also costs them some pride and some hard work.
> 
> I think Mrs. Grid is a genuine submissive.


Yep, I disagree, but this explains your thinking in this thread. You have misused quite a few words and now I understand why.



> I think grid is a dominant. A weak dominant relative to some others, but a dominant nonetheless.
> 
> Otherwise he would react emotionally to my posts.


He has reacted emotionally to your posts.


jld said:


> She took it for years. She finally had enough.


 I addressed this in the post you quoted. I said was for a reason.



> I think she has some self-respect. She is not a doormat.
> 
> But she did not have enough strength to confront grid or leave him. She is a weak submissive, like her husband has been a weak dominant.
> 
> I am trying to help him become a stronger dominant. *I would love to help her become a stronger submissive, too.*


She filed and we will disagree. 

Mrs. Bfree, you should really read her post history. It will hurt your heart. No, I am not joking.


----------



## jld

I would like to see that lady leave him and go back to school, LW. But it sounds like she is firmly in charge of that relationship (you can tell by the enthusiastic way she makes excuses for him) and will stay. Certainly she has financial interests there.

I don't see grid's wife, or their situation, the same way at all.


----------



## Chuck71

LongWalk said:


> jld,
> 
> Let's apply your logic to another couple: football star
> Johnny Manziel and his model girlfriend Colleen Crowley. The two of the were stopped by police because they were pulled over at the side of road in a alcohol fuelled physical altercation.
> 
> I don't follow professional football anymore because I am not in the US, but know Manziel is a guy upon whom there are romantic hopes. His fans want him to succeed. The police could have nailed with a blood alcohol test but they did not want to be responsible for ending story of a hero. His girlfriend could have nailed him by filing charges but she declined.
> 
> 
> 
> From this we can conclude that Manziel is dysfunctional. He has been in rehab. He is an alcoholic. His girlfriend is probably also dysfunctional. They were attracted to each other's dysfunction. I could be wrong about this. Perhaps she is trying to fix him so that she can have his babies.
> 
> Here are two approaches she can take:
> 
> 1) She can give him more sex. Crouch like a stool so he has some place to put his feet while leans back in the victims chair. She can pour the booze out. Update the apps on his smart phone.
> 
> or
> 
> 2) She can pack her bags and go back to university and finish her degree. As to their relationship she should just tell him she doesn't know.
> 
> Which of these two approaches is more likely to be successful?
> 
> Infidelity is usually dysfunctional behavior. That is why post D relationships between cheaters have a high failure rate. For Grid as a man, his wife's affair is humiliating, demeaning like no other experience. But Grid is able to distance himself and see that she is in the so-called fog. The fact that he has not rushed to divorce is already a big statement on his part.
> 
> And back to solution number 3 for Manziel and Crowley.
> 
> Manziel is sorry for being a drunken jerk, so he makes it up to her by buying a fat diamond ring and proposing to her. She accepts and they live dysfunctionally ever after.


After he is washed up and out of the NFL.... that's when the true dysfunction begins.

Want a road map for this punk...... Ryan Leaf


----------



## bfree

Mrs bfree: jld, I thought we could have a beneficial mutual exchange but your ideas are much too backward for me to relate to. I do have once thought though. Your obsession with dominance/submission is acute. Might I suggest you visit Fetlife.com soon. Either it will sate your appetite or provide you with more relevant information on what true dom/sub relationships are like. Perhaps both?


----------



## jld

bfree said:


> Mrs bfree: jld, I thought we could have a beneficial mutual exchange but your ideas are much too backward for me to relate to. I do have once thought though. Your obsession with dominance/submission is acute. Might I suggest you visit Fetlife.com soon. Either it will sate your appetite or provide you with more relevant information on what true dom/sub relationships are like. Perhaps both?


Thanks for the suggestion, Mrs. Bfree. Have a nice day.


----------



## ButtPunch

The notion that Mrs. Grid is submissive is comical. She has controlled this entire situation from the beginning.
Even hired a lawyer to protect her stake in the marriage. She is by far the more dominant partner in the relationship.

I have a complete different take on this thread than JLD. I think Grid married a selfish woman who has not met his needs
and not fulfilled her duties as a wife and mother. Won't get a real job to help with the debt. I think grid has toted his wife for most of this marriage because that's what *codependents* do. He would do things such as apply for jobs for her but she wouldn't follow thru or appreciate. So he did what codependents do and get angry. She didn't appreciate him doing for her or his fixing everything. This makes him angry and then he tries to help her some other way. She doesn't appreciate again. Rinse and Repeat. 

If there is an abuser in this relationship it is clearly Mrs. Grid. A year long affair is abuse. Not pulling your weight in a marriage is abuse. I bet if Grid were not codependent he would have walked away years ago. 

How's that for a curve ball.


----------



## TeddieG

ButtPunch said:


> The notion that Mrs. Grid is submissive is comical. She has controlled this entire situation from the beginning.
> Even hired a lawyer to protect her stake in the marriage. She is by far the more dominant partner in the relationship.
> 
> I have a complete different take on this thread than JLD. I think Grid married a selfish woman who has not met his needs
> and not fulfilled her duties as a wife and mother. Won't get a real job to help with the debt. I think grid has toted his wife for most of this marriage because that's what *codependents* do. He would do things such as apply for jobs for her but she wouldn't follow thru or appreciate. So he did what codependents do and get angry. She didn't appreciate him doing for her or his fixing everything. This makes him angry and then he tries to help her some other way. She doesn't appreciate again. Rinse and Repeat.
> 
> If there is an abuser in this relationship it is clearly Mrs. Grid. A year long affair is abuse. Not pulling your weight in a marriage is abuse. I bet if Grid were not codependent he would have walked away years ago.
> 
> How's that for a curve ball.


Works for me. And jld just wants to keep propagating the cycle. She keeps screaming at Grid to fix it fix it fix it. No wonder she sounds like Mrs. Grid.


----------



## ButtPunch

TeddieG said:


> Works for me. And jld just wants to keep propagating the cycle. She keeps screaming at Grid to fix it fix it fix it. No wonder she sounds like Mrs. Grid.


Problem is that codependents love to fix. They love for the entire world to be placed on their shoulders.


----------



## ButtPunch

It doesn't matter if JLD is right or I'm right.

Three strikes said it best

Step 1: 180 and detach .......


----------



## jld

My concern with the 180 is that she might actually like it.

I am just not sure there is much that is keeping her linked to grid right now. And while the rest of you might think that is fine, I think a divorce would cause unnecessary damage to their girls.

Grid, if I were you, I would apologize for the attitude this morning and be nice to her. Try to make deposits in her emotional bank account. You have been overdrawn for years.


----------



## LongWalk

One positive development of divorce is that the two daughters will not have the co-dependent couple relationship as the model for their lives. It means they will be less likely to grow compulsively fixing or exploiting their boyfriends/husbands.

Perhaps Grid will talk about Mrs Grid's current lack of parental engagement. The elder daughter is probably desperately trying to fix mommy, wondering if she did something wrong to make her parents fight.

Also, noteworthy, Grid has been angry, disappointed, etc. but he has actually been a lot more civil to his wife, despite her hostility. She walks around, exerting herself to be bitter. If she were putting in any sort of effort, she could lie down together with him in bed and talk with their arms around each other, not for sex but just to introduce some hint of kindness. Grid probably no longer touches her because she shudders and hastens away to the other side of the room.

I hope she told OM that the one time she had sex with Grid was not what she wanted.

By the way, the cig breaks with the whole gang. Since the toxic co-workers know about the affair. They doubtless left the smoking breaks early so that the she and OM could chat without disturbance. It is known as tact.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> My concern with the 180 is that she might actually like it.
> 
> I am just not sure there is much that is keeping her linked to grid right now. And while the rest of you might think that is fine, I think a divorce would cause unnecessary damage to their girls.
> 
> Grid, if I were you, I would apologize for the attitude this morning and be nice to her. Try to make deposits in her emotional bank account. You have been overdrawn for years.


She probably will like it but it isn't about her. 

Having a three person marriage is damaging to the girls. They are learning from how this is being handled and quite frankly they are learning the wrong things.


----------



## jld

LW, I don't think, again, that she is the powerful person you think she is. I think she was hurt for years, and still is not able to communicate her feelings to him.

Instead of thinking of her as some tiger, imagine her as a kitten. Grid is the tiger. Honestly, the power differential in the relationship is the main thing I think people are misunderstanding.

I am asking the tiger to be gentle with the kitten.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> LW, I don't think, again, that she is the powerful person you think she is. I think she was hurt for years, and still is not able to communicate her feelings to him.
> 
> Instead of thinking of her as some tiger, imagine her as a kitten. Grid is the tiger. Honestly, the power differential in the relationship is the main thing I think people are misunderstanding.
> 
> I am asking the tiger to be gentle with the kitten.


She's the tiger. 

She filed.

She cheated.

She didn't hold her weight in the marriage because she knew she didn't have to and didn't care to.


----------



## manfromlamancha

jld said:


> My concern with the 180 is that she might actually like it.
> 
> I am just not sure there is much that is keeping her linked to grid right now. And while the rest of you might think that is fine, I think a divorce would cause unnecessary damage to their girls.
> 
> Grid, if I were you, I would apologize for the attitude this morning and be nice to her. Try to make deposits in her emotional bank account. You have been overdrawn for years.


I am pretty sure that there is NOTHING keeping her linked to grid right now. In fact there are a couple of things keeping her unlinked from grid right now and neither of these is to do with grid's behaviour.

The first thing that is causing her to take flight is the financial mess - there is no stability here for her.

The second thing is the POSOM whose "lurvin" she craves and has been engaged in for about a year.

Grid doesn't stand a chance of getting her back now - she needs to break free of POSOM and jointly accept the financial situation they are in (in addition to apologising for her appalling behaviour) which is not likely to happen. Now to ask Grid to "man up" or become a "strong dominant" by being nice to her and apologising is not going to help him here.

And grid is not reacting to your posts because he has a ton of stuff to worry about right now so he is just taking what he needs but I am pretty sure that sometimes we confuse the hell out of him.

He needs toxicity out of his life as much as possible right now.

Asking him to try for the sake of his girls is admirable but proven to be the wrong reason to stay in a toxic relationship.


----------



## manfromlamancha

This kitten went and slept with an orang-utan - what do you think the tiger should do now ?


----------



## jld

Well, I disagree.

His marriage dynamic is not the kind of marriage dynamic I suspect many posters in this thread have. 

He does not need to do something special like the 180 to get power. He already _has_ power. He simply is not using it.


----------



## jld

He needs to extend warmth and compassion and most of all empathy to her. These would make deposits in her emotional bank account.

He needs to not pressure and make unkind comments and be controlling. Patience and kindness would go far.

He needs to earn her trust. That could help her get over her feelings for the other man.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> Well, I disagree.
> 
> His marriage dynamic is not the kind of marriage dynamic I suspect many posters in this thread have.
> 
> He does not need to do something special like the 180 to get power. He already _has_ power. He simply is not using it.


The 180 isn't a power play. The 180 is to help Grid heal from the damage of infidelity. It is much much worse than you can imagine.

The moment Grid realizes he is powerless and not powerful to manipulate this situation he will have come a long way. Grid can't fix this by himself even though he would like to.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> He needs to extend warmth and compassion and most of all empathy to her. These would make deposits in her emotional bank account.
> 
> He needs to not pressure and make unkind comments and be controlling. Patience and kindness would go far.
> 
> He needs to earn her trust. That could help her get over her feelings for the other man.


This is just teaching his girls that it's no big deal to cheat on your husband. 

There needs to be immediate and devastating consequences.


----------



## jld

They know it's a big deal. They feel it.

I think some love and empathy is in order. I think there have been enough consequences for a while.


----------



## ButtPunch

There have been zero consequences.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

I don't think it feels that way to Mrs. Grid.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> I don't think it feels that way to Mrs. Grid.


I don't think she gives a sh*t


----------



## TheTruthHurts

ButtPunch said:


> If Mrs.G would have just been a good wife and met her husbands needs none of this would have happened.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Absolutely!


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> I don't think she gives a sh*t


I think she could, with kinder treatment.


----------



## bfree

Jld, I'm sorry if my wife was a little curt with you earlier. She can be a tad opinionated and inflexible. Well with everyone else but me that is. ;-)


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Ok everyone, gather round...

Please please please treat JLD as if she were a troll and stop taking the bait. She continues to say inflamitory things and refuses to learn from others who know what infidelity is and how it works. She may not be a troll but she certainly is behaving like one in the context of this forum.

Grid knows jld is nothing more than his wife's world view fluttering in his ear. He has stated and shown he does not believe in her solutions at this phase of infidelity.

Therefore no need to feed Jld's ego. Busy scroll past like I have been and this thread will stop growing with frustrated people.

Resist!!!!


----------



## LongWalk

Jld,

I could see reconciliation based on mutual recognition of wrongs committed. Mrs Grid feels sorry for herself and no one else, except OM. She may not even feel much well rounded compassion for him either.

Mrs Grid's reluctance to attempt R could in part be due to her unwillingness to face up to what she actually did. You say that she is not in control but throughout the affair she was in total control, lying her azz off. Everyday she came home from the job and told Grid how much she liked it, he was thinking that she developing as a person becoming stronger, more independent, self actualized. Actually with each successive day of building a emotional connection with OM she was duping Grid. He has not even begun to discuss how that feels. She refuses to talk about it.

Exactly how many condoms weren't there to sweep under the rug?

Over the course of a year, there four nuclear family birthdays, one wedding anniversary, one Thanksgiving, one Christmas, etc. all under a cloud of the affair goings on. She is loath to open up. That's why all the quills or spines are waving in the air when Grid comes near.


----------



## Chuck71

ButtPunch said:


> The notion that Mrs. Grid is submissive is comical. She has controlled this entire situation from the beginning.
> Even hired a lawyer to protect her stake in the marriage. She is by far the more dominant partner in the relationship.
> 
> I have a complete different take on this thread than JLD. I think Grid married a selfish woman who has not met his needs
> and not fulfilled her duties as a wife and mother. Won't get a real job to help with the debt. I think grid has toted his wife for most of this marriage because that's what *codependents* do. He would do things such as apply for jobs for her but she wouldn't follow thru or appreciate. So he did what codependents do and get angry. She didn't appreciate him doing for her or his fixing everything. This makes him angry and then he tries to help her some other way. She doesn't appreciate again. Rinse and Repeat.
> 
> If there is an abuser in this relationship it is clearly Mrs. Grid. A year long affair is abuse. Not pulling your weight in a marriage is abuse. I bet if Grid were not codependent he would have walked away years ago.
> 
> How's that for a curve ball.


As Yoda would say....... Grid was guilty of too many #3s (DeMello)


----------



## Chuck71

jld said:


> *He needs to *extend warmth and compassion and most of all empathy to her. These would make deposits in her emotional bank account.
> 
> *He needs to* not pressure and make unkind comments and be controlling. Patience and kindness would go far.
> 
> *He needs to* earn her trust. That could help her get over her feelings for the other man.


Tad bit one sided I see.

One has to love thy self first... once this occurs, the world will follow

Her exploits and rationale tells me nothing about you Grid

but a lot about her


----------



## ButtPunch

Chuck71 said:


> As Yoda would say....... Grid was guilty of too many #3s (DeMello)


Absolutely

Grid must get a handle on this. Relationship killer.


----------



## Chuck71

jld said:


> I think she could, with kinder treatment.


Yeah.... LOL maybe Grid should whip out his debit card and offer to pay for them a room

to romper in.


----------



## jld

LongWalk said:


> Jld,
> 
> I could see reconciliation based on mutual recognition of wrongs committed. Mrs Grid feels sorry for herself and no one else, except OM. She may not even feel much well rounded compassion for him either.
> 
> Mrs Grid's reluctance to attempt R could in part be due to her unwillingness to face up to what she actually did. You say that she is not in control but throughout the affair she was in total control, lying her azz off. Everyday she came home from the job and told Grid how much she liked it, he was thinking that she developing as a person becoming stronger, more independent, self actualized. Actually with each successive day of building a emotional connection with OM she was duping Grid. He has not even begun to discuss how that feels. She refuses to talk about it.
> 
> Exactly how many condoms weren't there to sweep under the rug?
> 
> Over the course of a year, there four nuclear family birthdays, one wedding anniversary, one Thanksgiving, one Christmas, etc. all under a cloud of the affair goings on. She is loath to open up. That's why all the quills or spines are waving in the air when Grid comes near.


LW, I don't think she feels like she has a lot of control in her life. Remember when grid found her looking at something like How to deal with a controlling husband websites? I am telling you, you think she is way more powerful than she actually is.

You see her as the dominant partner, and I see grid as the dominant partner. It completely affects our view of this situation, and the advice we give. 

Also, I am strongly pushing for reconciliation, while other folks are fine with divorce. We have different goals.

I totally think grid could save this. It would require some leadership from him, but I think she would eventually respond.

Again, we come from different fundamental beliefs about this couple, and have different goals. I am not sure we can reconcile this.


----------



## Chuck71

TheTruthHurts said:


> Ok everyone, gather round...
> 
> Please please please treat JLD as if she were a troll and stop taking the bait. She continues to say inflamitory things and refuses to learn from others who know what infidelity is and how it works. She may not be a troll but she certainly is behaving like one in the context of this forum.
> 
> Grid knows jld is nothing more than his wife's world view fluttering in his ear. He has stated and shown he does not believe in her solutions at this phase of infidelity.
> 
> Therefore no need to feed Jld's ego. Busy scroll past like I have been and this thread will stop growing with frustrated people.
> 
> Resist!!!!


Yet sometimes humor is needed.

Would you rather laugh or cry?

I'd rather laugh too


----------



## happy as a clam

jld said:


> Though, I wish he were a stronger dominant. Reconciliation would be going much faster.


This statement in incomprehensible.

How could reconciliation be happening while Mrs. Grid is in love with another man?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## manfromlamancha

JLD why are you pushing so hard for reconciliation? 

Grid, Mrs Grid and yes, even the kids might be better off with a divorce rather than the pain, triggering, resentment and high odds of failure in a reconciliation.


----------



## ConanHub

happy as a clam said:


> This statement in incomprehensible.
> 
> How could reconciliation be happening while Mrs. Grid is in love with another man?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Don't look through the door. For inside dwells darkness and the things that have made their home.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Grid could move her towards it, happy. If he would start meeting her emotional needs, instead of demanding she meet his (what he said this morning), reconciliation could start.

I am pushing for reconciliation, man, because grid is not weak. For a weak man I would agree that divorce is best. 

But that is not the case with grid. He can get reconciliation going if he will humble himself enough to empathize with her.


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## ButtPunch

jld said:


> Grid could move her towards it, happy. If he would start meeting her emotional needs, instead of demanding she meet his (what he said this morning), reconciliation could start.
> 
> I am pushing for reconciliation, man, because grid is not weak. For a weak man I would agree that divorce is best.
> 
> But that is not the case with grid. He can get reconciliation going if he will humble himself enough to empathize with her.


And they all lived miserably ever after in their f'd up disfunctional marriage.


----------



## TeddieG

ButtPunch said:


> It doesn't matter if JLD is right or I'm right.
> 
> Three strikes said it best
> 
> Step 1: 180 and detach .......


Word up!


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## TeddieG

ButtPunch said:


> She probably will like it but it isn't about her.
> 
> Having a three person marriage is damaging to the girls. They are learning from how this is being handled and quite frankly they are learning the wrong things.


"My concern with the 180 is that she might actually like it." 

So if she does, she's over him and done with him and he can heal. If she doesn't, if she really feels him moving on and she decides she wants him, she'll do the work.


----------



## TeddieG

TheTruthHurts said:


> Ok everyone, gather round...
> 
> Please please please treat JLD as if she were a troll and stop taking the bait. She continues to say inflamitory things and refuses to learn from others who know what infidelity is and how it works. She may not be a troll but she certainly is behaving like one in the context of this forum.
> 
> Grid knows jld is nothing more than his wife's world view fluttering in his ear. He has stated and shown he does not believe in her solutions at this phase of infidelity.
> 
> Therefore no need to feed Jld's ego. Busy scroll past like I have been and this thread will stop growing with frustrated people.
> 
> Resist!!!!


OMG, I so agree, and am so glad someone found a nice way to say it; I've been trying to find a way to suggest it but couldn't be sure what I really wanted to say wouldn't get me banned.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

U


ButtPunch said:


> jld said:
> 
> 
> 
> Grid could move her towards it, happy. If he would start meeting her emotional needs, instead of demanding she meet his (what he said this morning), reconciliation could start.
> 
> I am pushing for reconciliation, man, because grid is not weak. For a weak man I would agree that divorce is best.
> 
> But that is not the case with grid. He can get reconciliation going if he will humble himself enough to empathize with her.
> 
> 
> 
> And they all lived miserably ever after in their f'd up disfunctional marriage.
Click to expand...

QFT!!!

Can I buy the rights to this thread? It'll make a great miniseries. About episode 4 of 10 we have the big plot changer disclosing that JLD is really Mrs Grid! The tension mounts through episode 9 when it is revealed!!! Then finally Grid .... you'll have to watch to find out!!!


----------



## jld

Happy, let me explain a little more how I see it.

Mrs. Grid was a SAHM, iirc, until about a year ago. A SAHM for a decade, with an emotionally and verbally abusive husband.

She goes to work and is probably befriended by this young man. He talks to her, flatters her, makes her feel special. Is her husband doing that? Not likely. 

She enjoys the attention and starts developing feelings for him. Grid has said she would have no trouble finding another man, and this other man found her.

Positive attention at work, negative attention at home. She draws closer and closer to OM. Finally they have sex.

She tells grid (we can speculate on the reasons why), and grid exposes her. Now, that should have started reconciliation, right?

While she certainly feels shame, she still has those emotional needs, the need for love and affirmation that every woman has. And grid is still not meeting them. But the memory of OM, if not OM himself, is.

If grid would start meeting those needs, her feelings for OM would wane. It would take time, but they would wane.

But if grid is sitting around making angry remarks, she is just pushed further away.

I do not think Mrs. Grid can save this marriage. If this is all on her, then we might as well give up. My hope is on grid.

Grid is hurt. He wants her to own up to her failing. Now.

I think she will, eventually. But first he has to get meeting those emotional needs. They went unmet for way too long before the affair. I doubt now that she has had a taste of having them met, that she is going to just give them up and meekly kneel at grid's feet begging forgiveness. 

But if he would start meeting them, earnestly start, without pushing his own needs front and center, she would come around. 

She is not a bad person. She was a starved person who found an illegitimate source of food. She needs a legitimate source, and grid could start being that.


----------



## Chaparral

To cut into some of this repetitive posting check this out. Print this off and ask your wife if she recognizes her AP in it. Findingmyway was the player that posted this.

Findingmyway was a player, I don't know if he comes on here much now, but he did leave a point of view thread although I can't find it. He posted something similar to me, here it is.:
***********************************************

My perspective- as a serial cheat. Before I start, I'm no GQ model look alike and I'm not wealthy.

For me, it was always about extra sex. The thrill of the chase and ego boost was a plus, but I just wanted more sex than my wife did. I always loved my wife and certainly never ever wanted to leave her or lose her. Especially not over someone else's wayward wife.

I had a simple method. I used it because it worked. I targeted married women. I figured they were safer for several important reasons.
1- Less likely to be sleeping around with random guys (STDs).
2- Less likely to pull the crazy girlfriend BS and call my wife.
3- In case of an unwanted pregnancy, I had a built in schmuck to pay the tab and would have claimed to have had a vasectomy.

The most important part of being a player is to hide it. I started with shy looks making certain I'd get caught and then doing my best to look embarrassed. If she started to come around more or dress sexier then I'd try a safe compliment. If she called me on my BS (yes, it happened) I simply acted highly offended. After all, I'm a married family man. That usually got me an apology. A few really smart ones just avoided me altogether.

If she accepted the compliment, I knew I had a chance. I never ever wasted time with someone that I didn't want to bed. If the compliment was successful, I simply followed with more as time permitted and just let things develop. Who knew where it would go? When she would speak with me about her frustrations with her husband (they always complained about their husband) I used that to my advantage. If they complained that he didn't do enough with the kids, I was dad of the year. If he didn't help out around the house, I did everything at home so my wife didn't have to. Yes, it was complete BS, but so what. My job was to make them feel special, pretty and needed and to paint the fantasy. After all, my goal was not conversation or friendship. I wanted to score.

Once things progressed and I had to keep it intense unless it was simply a once and done kind of thing. I would do that by pushing her boundaries for sex. Anal, public hook-up whatever. Keep in mind, I'm in it for the sex so I tried for everything I liked and heard more than once statements like... I never even let my husband do that. That was usually with anal, but sometimes public hook-ups also.

I certainly didn't want to be paying for hotel rooms out my pocket. If she wanted to pay, that was fine. Otherwise, we could hook-up anywhere, it didn't matter to me.

I always advised them to keep the secret between us, because it was so special. Actually, I didn't want to get busted. If they got busted, and some did. That was their tough crap to deal with. I certainly never vowed to love/honor/cherish them.

As I look back, I'm stunned at how easy it was and how many fell for my crap. I had some that would try to pull away and I'd feed them the star crossed lovers BS, you know... kept apart by the cruel hand of fate. That worked like magic to seal the deal. I also used things like I think my wife may have cheated on me. Then I'd work in how I got tested for STDs and it was clear and somehow manage to mention my vasectomy (never had one). Understand? I'm safe, you won't catch anything if you sleep with me and I won't get you pregnant. That was the message.

The one thing that sent me running was the fear of getting caught and sometimes I just wanted a quick bang and wasn't in it for a couple of months of an affair. I'm still also amazed by how many didn't see through my crap either. They didn't have to deal with the day to day stresses that adults face with me (finances, mortgages, car payments, child care, time commitments, etc.). With me, it was just fun and sex. The poor bastard at home didn't have a chance once the play was in motion. It also helped me to see him as a douche-bag when his wife whined about him for whatever reason.

I work with a woman that has lost everything over an affair with me. The house, husband, family, etc. It's difficult to see. She hates me now, but I never vowed anything to her or forced her to do anything. That's her tough crap. Her kids are in therapy, their grades tanked and she's struggling financially and the kids blame her, etc. Honestly, I wish she'd quit so I didn't have to see her every freaking day.


I do know a few like me that I consider even worse. They brag and laugh about getting wayward wives to do things and try to get email or text proof to show off. It's pretty easy, just tell her how much he liked doing X with her last night and let her respond. Then they had proof to brag about and trade notes. I didn't do that. I just wanted the sex and avoided the women they talked about. I liked to find the ones who would seem to be the last to ever do anything like this. Goes back to my 3 reasons.

I never flirted with a married woman unless I wanted in her pants. Plain and simple, you do have to hide it so they don't see it coming, but it's really that basic. Other players use different methods, but we all use what works and modify sometimes if we're not progressing to try a different angle. Not all women are the same, and sometimes deviations are required if she'll let you in her pants.

It was never about love, just sex. I sold the fantasy, yes. But that is all it ever was. A fair trade. They were adults and quite frankly should have known better. Am I a predator, I certainly never thought so and I certainly never thought about what would happen to them when we were done. Yes, all my affairs ended. Most stayed married to their H they *****ed about and screwed around on. Therefore, he must not have been that bad. People just get caught up with unrealistic expectations on life I think. For goodness sake, Prince charming is only charming because he wants a blow job.

Before I close, I'll say this as well. An engaged woman would have worked for me also, but I never found one that would go for me. Also, newly married women are much harder to get. I had the best luck with women who had been married for at least several years, throw a kid or two in the mix and they were usually more susceptible to being chased.

It was a fair trade. Attention and compliments for sex.
findingmyway is offline Forward Message




Findingmyway was a player, I don't know if he comes on here much now, but he did leave a point of view thread although I can't find it. He posted something similar to me, here it is.:
***********************************************

My perspective- as a serial cheat. Before I start, I'm no GQ model look alike and I'm not wealthy.

For me, it was always about extra sex. The thrill of the chase and ego boost was a plus, but I just wanted more sex than my wife did. I always loved my wife and certainly never ever wanted to leave her or lose her. Especially not over someone else's wayward wife.

I had a simple method. I used it because it worked. I targeted married women. I figured they were safer for several important reasons.
1- Less likely to be sleeping around with random guys (STDs).
2- Less likely to pull the crazy girlfriend BS and call my wife.
3- In case of an unwanted pregnancy, I had a built in schmuck to pay the tab and would have claimed to have had a vasectomy.

The most important part of being a player is to hide it. I started with shy looks making certain I'd get caught and then doing my best to look embarrassed. If she started to come around more or dress sexier then I'd try a safe compliment. If she called me on my BS (yes, it happened) I simply acted highly offended. After all, I'm a married family man. That usually got me an apology. A few really smart ones just avoided me altogether.

If she accepted the compliment, I knew I had a chance. I never ever wasted time with someone that I didn't want to bed. If the compliment was successful, I simply followed with more as time permitted and just let things develop. Who knew where it would go? When she would speak with me about her frustrations with her husband (they always complained about their husband) I used that to my advantage. If they complained that he didn't do enough with the kids, I was dad of the year. If he didn't help out around the house, I did everything at home so my wife didn't have to. Yes, it was complete BS, but so what. My job was to make them feel special, pretty and needed and to paint the fantasy. After all, my goal was not conversation or friendship. I wanted to score.

Once things progressed and I had to keep it intense unless it was simply a once and done kind of thing. I would do that by pushing her boundaries for sex. Anal, public hook-up whatever. Keep in mind, I'm in it for the sex so I tried for everything I liked and heard more than once statements like... I never even let my husband do that. That was usually with anal, but sometimes public hook-ups also.

I certainly didn't want to be paying for hotel rooms out my pocket. If she wanted to pay, that was fine. Otherwise, we could hook-up anywhere, it didn't matter to me.

I always advised them to keep the secret between us, because it was so special. Actually, I didn't want to get busted. If they got busted, and some did. That was their tough crap to deal with. I certainly never vowed to love/honor/cherish them.

As I look back, I'm stunned at how easy it was and how many fell for my crap. I had some that would try to pull away and I'd feed them the star crossed lovers BS, you know... kept apart by the cruel hand of fate. That worked like magic to seal the deal. I also used things like I think my wife may have cheated on me. Then I'd work in how I got tested for STDs and it was clear and somehow manage to mention my vasectomy (never had one). Understand? I'm safe, you won't catch anything if you sleep with me and I won't get you pregnant. That was the message.

The one thing that sent me running was the fear of getting caught and sometimes I just wanted a quick bang and wasn't in it for a couple of months of an affair. I'm still also amazed by how many didn't see through my crap either. They didn't have to deal with the day to day stresses that adults face with me (finances, mortgages, car payments, child care, time commitments, etc.). With me, it was just fun and sex. The poor bastard at home didn't have a chance once the play was in motion. It also helped me to see him as a douche-bag when his wife whined about him for whatever reason.

I work with a woman that has lost everything over an affair with me. The house, husband, family, etc. It's difficult to see. She hates me now, but I never vowed anything to her or forced her to do anything. That's her tough crap. Her kids are in therapy, their grades tanked and she's struggling financially and the kids blame her, etc. Honestly, I wish she'd quit so I didn't have to see her every freaking day.


I do know a few like me that I consider even worse. They brag and laugh about getting wayward wives to do things and try to get email or text proof to show off. It's pretty easy, just tell her how much he liked doing X with her last night and let her respond. Then they had proof to brag about and trade notes. I didn't do that. I just wanted the sex and avoided the women they talked about. I liked to find the ones who would seem to be the last to ever do anything like this. Goes back to my 3 reasons.

I never flirted with a married woman unless I wanted in her pants. Plain and simple, you do have to hide it so they don't see it coming, but it's really that basic. Other players use different methods, but we all use what works and modify sometimes if we're not progressing to try a different angle. Not all women are the same, and sometimes deviations are required if she'll let you in her pants.

It was never about love, just sex. I sold the fantasy, yes. But that is all it ever was. A fair trade. They were adults and quite frankly should have known better. Am I a predator, I certainly never thought so and I certainly never thought about what would happen to them when we were done. Yes, all my affairs ended. Most stayed married to their H they *****ed about and screwed around on. Therefore, he must not have been that bad. People just get caught up with unrealistic expectations on life I think. For goodness sake, Prince charming is only charming because he wants a blow job.

Before I close, I'll say this as well. An engaged woman would have worked for me also, but I never found one that would go for me. Also, newly married women are much harder to get. I had the best luck with women who had been married for at least several years, throw a kid or two in the mix and they were usually more susceptible to being chased.

It was a fair trade. Attention and compliments for sex.
findingmyway is offline Forward Message


----------



## Chaparral

Here is another recommended post that's been around a long time.

This is to print off and the two of you read it together and talk about.

<I>Understanding Your Betrayed Spouse - A quick reference manual for unfaithful partners.

The Sea of Stress is Difficult to Understand.

YOU BETRAYED YOUR PARTNER. NOW COMES THE FALLOUT.

They discovered your adultery. You ended the affair and promised you’ll never cheat again. But the stress from their emotional devastation lingers. And you don’t see much change – at least, not as much positive change as you expected. Many times, any visible changes are for the worse. You observe them bouncing back and forth like a ping-pong ball, moment to moment, from one emotion to the next. They’re unpredictable. There’s no discernable pattern. Their nerves are frayed. They can’t sleep. They can’t eat. Their thoughts are obsessive. Intrusive visions and flashbacks assault them without warning. They cry at the drop of a hat. They feel empty, used up, exhausted. The stress consumes their energy and their life until they feel like there’s nothing left. It’s terrible.

It’s an ordeal for you to witness their tortured, depressed and angry states, and what’s worse; you don’t know what to do. You’re not alone. Unfaithful spouses never dream they’ll get busted, so when confronted with their adultery they’re always caught by surprise; first by their partners’ knowledge, then by their intense agony. Indeed, unfaithful partners never think about what they’ll face “after” until after. The fact is: Though they inflict it, adulterers are unprepared for the onslaught of their spouses’ overwhelming emotional distress. Is this real? Is this permanent?

As you watch them sink lower and lower, wallowing in an emotional abyss, you wonder where the bottom is, when they will hit it, and if they will ever ascend from it and return to “normal.” You ask yourself, “Is this real?” Then you ask, “Will this ever end?”

The simple answers are: Yes, it is real. And, yes, it will end. But recovery takes a long time, often years, and much depends on you. Can you be remorseful, apologetic, loving, patient, empathetic and soothing over an extended period of time? Can you commit to openness and honesty at all times – and forevermore being faithful to your spouse?

Be honest with yourself: If you can’t or don’t want to get over your affair, if you don’t feel shame and remorse, and if you can’t generously provide appropriate support to your spouse, then now is the time to consider ending your marriage and spare your marital partner further pain. (If this is the case, you need not read any further.)

But if you have put the affair permanently behind you, if you feel and can freely express your remorse and shame for your unfaithfulness, and if you can commit to supporting your spouse through their excruciating anguish, then you have an excellent chance of rebuilding from this disaster you’ve wrought to a happy, satisfying, caring and loving marriage. The following is intended to help you help your partner, and in turn yourself, through this horrible time and jumpstart your journey to recovery.

So, take a couple of deep breaths… and let’s start with three foundational facts:

What you’re seeing in your spouse is a normal reaction to a life-changing event.

Your spouse needs to grieve for as long as it takes in order to recover and heal.

You can be a positive influence on their recovery.

Now, go back and reread them several times. Let them really sink in. When you can repeat them without looking, continue.

Your first mission is to learn.

Learning about your partner’s myriad reactions to your betrayal allows you to recognize, understand and properly respond to them as they occur. Doing so will help you get through
this horrible initial stage, which can last a long time.
Below you’ll find a little of what your spouse is probably experiencing. They may shift from one reaction to another, or they could experience multiple reactions concurrently. And don’t be surprised if they return to previous states many times. Where applicable, we’ve added some tips to help you to assist your partner through this. In some cases, however, there may be little for you to do except to simply “be there.”

Most importantly, remember at all times: Your infidelity has traumatized your spouse. Act accordingly.

SECTION 1 - THE WILD PATCHWORK OF EMOTIONS

DISBELIEF: They expect to wake up any minute from this nightmare. It can’t be true. They don’t believe it. This is natural. They trusted you and don’t want to believe you did what you did. It is common for this to occur in the very first moments of discovery. (Note: If some time elapsed between the discovery of your affair and the confrontation, you may have missed this when it happened, but it is also possible for your spouse to return to disbelief.)

SHOCK: They are numb and often seem dazed. Their emotions are frozen. Their senses are dulled. They go through the motions mechanically, robotically, but can’t seem to apply sufficient concentration to their day-to-day lives.

REALITY: “Oh my God. It really happened.” They feel they’re getting worse. Actually, reality has just set in. It’s as if a ton of bricks just fell on them and they’re buried beneath them. They don’t know where to turn, or can’t. Don’t discount the likelihood that they feel shamed by your infidelity. So, they may be reluctant to seek support from friends and family. Be available to them for emotional support and encourage them to talk freely with anyone they choose. Suggest therapy as a means to help them through their trauma, but never accuse them of “being irrational” or “acting crazy.” Be supportive and encouraging. Commend them for seeking help.

CONFUSION: They’re disoriented. They can’t think straight. They become impatient, disorganized and forgetful. More frequently than usual they go to a room to retrieve something, but once they get there they can’t remember what it was. This is very upsetting to them. Bear with them. Be gentle and be helpful. Help them find their misplaced purse or locate their lost keys. Know that they will eventually come out of the fog. Also be aware that their confusion, as with other states listed here, may be set off or magnified by certain “triggers.” (Note: Read more about “triggers” below.)

PHYSICAL SYMPTOMS: They may sleep or eat too little – or too much. They may suffer physical aches and pains, numbness or weakness. They may feel unusually tense and develop headaches, abnormal tics, twitching or shaking. They may feel sick to their stomach and vomit, or their digestive system may react with constipation or diarrhea. Weight loss is common. Usually the symptoms fade gradually. If these symptoms persist, make sure they check with a doctor to rule out other causes. Encourage them to eat well and to exercise – but don’t nag. You might instead take control of their diet by preparing healthy, well balanced meals. If you don’t cook, take them to restaurants where you know they serve nourishing food and, if necessary, order for them. If they’re not exercising, initiate taking long walks together. It’s a good way to ease them into a healthy exercise regimen, which is always a good stress reliever, and will provide opportunity for you to begin constructively re-establishing your “couplehood.”

CRYING: Deep emotions suddenly well up, seeking release as crying, uncontrollable sobbing and even screaming out loud. Allow them their time for tears. They can help. So can you. When they cry, give them your shoulder. Hug them. Help them through it by gently encouraging them, to “get it all out.” Be certain to verbalize your remorse for causing their pain. They need to hear this from you. (Note: Right now, genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit. That is why you’ll see many more references below. Read “Apologize” in Section 2.)

SELF-CONTROL: They control their emotions to fulfill their responsibilities, or to simply rest from the pain. Self-control can shape and give rhythm to their grieving, but be on the lookout for constant and rigid self-control. It can block healing. They need to reduce their emotional pressure to regain equilibrium. Allow them to vent when it happens. Be aware: Too much self-control means they are storing up much anger and will release it powerfully, like floodwaters breaking through a dam. So don’t be alarmed if they suddenly lash out at you, your affair partner, or even themselves. Understand that the release of anger is necessary to heal. Though it may not feel this way to you when it happens, it’s beneficial.

NEED TO KNOW: They will ask lots of questions. Their curiosity may be insatiable or it may be limited. Different people have different needs and tolerances for information, but they need information to process their trauma, move through it, and move past it.

Let them set the agenda. Whenever they ask a question, whatever they ask, answer honestly and sufficiently. Refusing to answer gives the appearance that you’re still keeping them in the dark, that you still have something to hide. Do not hold anything back. If they discover later that you omitted or hid details, or if the facts they discover don’t match the story you tell, they’ll feel betrayed once again. Follow the delivery of each new piece of hurtful information with an apology, and soothe them with another promise that you’ll never again be unfaithful.

WHY: They ask, “Why did you do this?” They may or may not expect an answer, but they ask repeatedly. If they do want an answer, provide it – and answer honestly. Even if the question is rhetorical, be aware that the question itself, rhetorical or not, is a cry of pain. And each time they feel pain, it should be answered with another apology. (I can’t stress enough how important this is.) Be aware: Even if they are not verbalizing this to you, they are still silently asking the question “Why?” over and over and over again.

INJUSTICE: They feel it’s all so unfair. You invited danger, you took the risk, but they suffered injury. They want justice and begin to think like a vigilante. They may harbour a secret desire to do harm to you or your affair partner. They may want to get even by having a “revenge affair.”
Understand that the aftermath of your unfaithfulness is an agony you have thrust upon them. Meanwhile, despite your betrayal and deceit, and the shame you feel, you and your affair partner may retain fond or even loving memories of your affair. One of my patients described her feelings of injustice this way: “I feel like a rape victim watching helplessly as the jury returns a ‘not guilty’ verdict. Then, the assailant looks at me, points his finger at me and laughs all the way out of the courtroom. How can this possibly happen?”

A sad truth of infidelity is: It is unfair. Of course, there is no “justice” that can come from this. Betrayed spouses generally settle into this realization on their own, but they need to know that you understand how this plagues them. (Note: Read “Share your feelings of guilt and shame” in Section 2. It explains the best way to help them through their sense of injustice.)

INADEQUACY: Their self esteem is shattered. They feel belittled, insignificant, and often even unlovable. Just as you would crumple a piece of scrap paper and toss it in the garbage without a second thought, they feel you crushed them, discarded them, and didn’t give them a second thought, either. So, they question their own value. They wonder if you truly love them – or if anyone could. They need to know why you now choose them over your affair partner, even if they don’t ask. Make your case convincingly. Be generous, but be genuine. They’ll know if you aren’t, and false flattery for the purpose of mere appeasement will only hurt them more.

REPEATING: Over and over again, they review the story, thinking the same thoughts. Do not attempt to stop them. Repeating helps them to absorb and process the painful reality. You can help them get through it by answering all their questions truthfully and filling in all the gaps for them. The more they know – the more they can repeat the complete story – the faster they process it, accept it and begin to heal. If the story remains incomplete or significant gaps are filled in later, they may have to start the process all over again.

IDEALIZING: Sometimes they remember only good memories, as if their time with you was perfect. They long to live in the past, before the affair came along and “messed it up.” Assure them that you, too, remember the good times, and want things to be good again. Remind them that you want an even better future, that you are willing to work at it, and, most importantly, that you want your future with them – and not your affair partner.

FRUSTRATION: Their past fulfillments are gone. They haven’t found new ones yet and don’t seem interested in finding any. They feel they’re not coping with grief “right” or they feel they should be healing faster. They don’t understand why the pain returns again and again. They wonder if they will ever recover and feel better. You can help them by verbalizing what they need to hear even if you don’t or can’t fully understand it yourself. Be empathetic and assure them that under the circumstances they’re doing okay. Remember that despite how much you have hurt them, you are still the one they chose as their life partner, for better or for worse. You may still be their closest confidante. As incongruous as it may seem, don’t be surprised if they choose to confide in you over others.

BITTERNESS: Feelings of resentment and hatred toward you and your paramour are to be expected. Don’t be surprised if they redirect much of the anger that’s really meant for you toward your paramour. This is natural. It’s actually a way of protecting their love for you during the early stages. By restricting their anger toward you, they allow it to be time-released, and only in smaller, more manageable amounts. Expect their anger to surface periodically, and give them plenty of time to work through it so they can eventually let go of it. Understand that until they’ve worked through and exhausted their anger, they cannot heal.

WAITING: The initial struggle is waning, but their zest for life has not returned. They are in limbo, they are exhausted and uncertain. Indeed, life seems flat and uninteresting. They are unenthused about socializing, perhaps reluctant, and they are unable to plan activities for themselves. Help them by finding ways to stimulate them. Plan activities for them around things that hold their interest and bring joy back into their life.

EMOTIONS IN CONFLICT: This is one of the most difficult manifestations because there is so much going on at the same time and their feelings do not always synchronize with reality. The most succinct description was provided by the late Shirley Glass, PhD: “One of the ironies of healing from infidelity is that the perpetrator must become the healer. This means that betrayed partners are vulnerable because the person they are most likely to turn to in times of trouble is precisely the source of their danger.” The inherent conflict for a betrayed spouse is obvious, but Dr. Glass also recognized how difficult this balancing act can be for a repentant adulterer: “On the other hand, [unfaithful] partners sometimes find it hard to stay engaged with their spouses when they know they are the source of such intense pain.” The key, of course, is to stay engaged nonetheless. Be supportive and remorseful, and above all… keep talking.

TRIGGERS: Particular dates, places, items and activities can bring back their pain as intensely as ever. It feels like they’re caught in a loop as they relive the trauma. It is emotionally debilitating.

Triggers can cause days and nights of depression, renew anger, and can spark and reignite nightmares, which may make them fear sleeping. Triggers can cause them to question if they will ever again experience life without the anguish. Get rid of all the reminders immediately: Gifts, letters, pictures, cards, emails, clothing… whatever your spouse associates with your affair. Do this with your spouse so they are not left wondering when those triggers may recur. Never cling to anything that bothers your partner. It leaves the impression that your keepsakes and mementos, or any reminders of your affair, are more important to you than they are.

Attend to your partner. Learn what dates, songs, places, etc., are triggers for your partner. Pay attention to your environment: If you hear or see something that you think might be a trigger, assume it is. Each occasion a trigger arises is an appropriate moment for you to communicate a clear and heartfelt message that you’re sorry you acted so selfishly and caused this recurring pain. So again, apologize and let them know how much you love them. The occurrence of a trigger is also a good opportunity to express that you choose them and not your affair partner, which is important for them to hear. If a trigger occurs in public, you can still wrap your arm around your spouse’s waist or shoulder, or simply squeeze their hand, but verbalize your apology as soon as you are alone again.

It is very important for you to understand and remember this… Triggers can remain active for their entire life. Don’t ever think or insist that enough time has passed that they should be “over it” because another sad truth of infidelity is: Your affair will remain a permanent memory for them, subject to involuntary recall at any time – even decades later. They will NEVER be “over it.” They simply learn to deal with it better as they heal, as you earn back their trust, and as you rebuild your relationship – over time.

SECTION 2 - WHAT ELSE CAN YOU DO TO EASE THEIR PAIN & RELIEVE THEIR STRESS?

Make certain you’ve killed the beast: Your affair must be over, in all respects, completely and forever. You cannot put your marriage in jeopardy ever again. Your spouse has given you a second chance that you probably don’t deserve. That may sound harsh, but think about it this way: Despite any marital problems the two of you experienced, you would certainly understand if they divorced you solely because of your adultery. So assume there will not be a third chance and behave accordingly.

This opportunity you have been bestowed is a monumental gift, particularly considering the anguish you caused them. Treat this gift, and your spouse, with care and due respect: No contact means NO CONTACT OF ANY KIND – EVER.

GET INTO THERAPY: Most attempts to heal and rebuild after infidelity will fail without the assistance of a qualified therapist. Make certain you both feel comfortable with the therapist. You must trust them and have faith in their methodology. Talk about it: If of you are uncomfortable with your therapist at any time, don’t delay – find another. And if need be, yet another. Then stick with it. Save particularly volatile topics for counselling sessions. Your therapist will provide a neutral place and safe means to discuss these subjects constructively. Every so often, think back to where you were two or three months earlier. Compare that to where you are now and determine if you’re making progress. Progress will be made slowly, not daily or even weekly, so do not perform daily or weekly evaluations. Make the comparative periods long enough to allow a “moderate-term” review rather than “short-term.” Expect setbacks or even restarts, and again… stick with it.

APOLOGIZE: Actually, that should read: “Apologize, apologize, apologize.” You cannot apologize too often, but you can apologize improperly. Apologize genuinely and fully. Betrayed spouses develop a finely calibrated “insincerity radar.” A partial or disingenuous apology will feel meaningless, condescending or even insulting, particularly during the months following discovery. Your spouse will feel better if you don’t merely say, “I’m sorry.” To a betrayed spouse that sounds and feels empty. Try to continue and complete the apology by saying everything that’s now salient to your partner: “I’m ashamed I cheated on you and I’m so very sorry. I know that my lying and deceiving you has hurt you enormously. I deeply want to earn back your trust – and I want so much for you to be able, some day, to forgive me.” As noted earlier, right now genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit.

REALIZE YOUR PARTNER WANTS TO FEEL BETTER: There is so much they have to deal with – pain, anger, disappointment, confusion and despair. Their being, their world, is swirling in a black hole of negative feelings. It’s agonizing. They wish it would stop, but they feel powerless to make it go away, which worries them even more. Remember that they can’t help it: Just as they didn’t choose for this to happen, they don’t choose to feel this way. Beyond all the possible feelings described in the section above (and that list may be incomplete in your spouse’s case), even if they don’t understand them, they do recognize that changes are occurring in themselves – and they are frightened by them. As terrible as it is for you to see their ongoing nightmare, it is far worse to live in it. Periodically assure them that you know they will get better, that you are willing to do everything necessary for them to heal and to make your marriage work. Reassure them that you are with them for the duration – no matter how long it takes – and that you intend to spend the rest of your life with them.

HIDE NOTHING, OPEN EVERYTHING: While they’re greatly angered and hurt that you were emotionally and/or sexually involved with another person, they are even more devastated by your secret life, your lies and deception. They feel no trust in you right now – and they’re 100% justified. If ever there was someone in the world they felt they could trust, it was you – until now. Now, they have difficulty believing anything you say. They are driven to check up on everything. Let them. Better still, help them. Overload them with access. The era of “covering your tracks” must end and be supplanted by total and voluntary transparency.

You must dismantle and remove every vestige of secrecy. Offer your spouse the passwords to your email accounts – yes, even the secret one they still don’t know about. Let them bring in the mail. If you receive a letter, card or email from your paramour, let your spouse open it. If you receive a voice or text message on your cell phone, let them retrieve it and delete it. If your friends provided alibis for you, end those friendships. Do not change your phone bill to a less detailed version or delete your browser history. Provide your spouse with your credit card bills, bank account statements, cell phone bills and anything else you think they might wish to check. Immediately tell them if you hear from or accidentally run into your affair partner. Tell them where you are going, when you’ll be home, and be on time. If your plans change, notify them immediately.

The more willing you are to be transparent, the more honesty and openness they see and feel, the more “trust chits” you’ll earn. Replacing your previously secret life with complete openness is the fastest and most effective way to promote trust, even if it feels unfair or uncomfortable. Think of this as the “reverse image” of your affair: Your affair was about you selfishly making yourself feel good. Now, rebuilding trust is about selflessly making your partner feel safe with you – and you were certainly unfair to them. Keep in mind that eventually they will trust you again, but you must earn it and it will take time.

SPEND LOTS TIME WITH THEM: Assume that they want your company at all times. The more time you spend in their sight, the more they will feel a sense of safety, if only for that time. There may be times when you feel they’re a constant, perhaps even an annoying presence. Just remember that they need to be around you – more than ever. If they need time alone, they’ll let you know and you must respect that, too. Knowing where you are and who you are with reduces worry, but expect them to check up on you. Don’t take offence when this happens. Instead, welcome the opportunity: Think of each time – and each success – as receiving a check mark in the “Passed the Test” column. The more check marks you earn, the closer you are to being trusted again.

PHYSICAL CONTACT: They may or may not want to be sexual with you. If not, allow sufficient time for them to get comfortable with the idea of renewed intimacy and let them set the pace. But if so, don’t be discouraged if the sex is not optimum. They’re likely to be low on confidence and may feel self-conscious or inept. They may even act clumsily. This can be offset by lots of simple, soothing physical gestures such as hugging them, stroking them softly and providing kisses. You might try surprising them sexually. Try something new. Choose moments when they don’t expect it – it can feel fresh again. On the other hand, don’t be surprised if their sexual appetite and arousal is unusually heightened as some partners experience what’s called ‘Hysterical Bonding.’ Also be aware that during lovemaking they may suffer intrusive thoughts or mental images of you and your affair partner, so they may suddenly shut down or even burst into tears. Again, apologize for making them feel this way. Express that you choose them – and not your affair partner. Reassure them by emphasizing that they are the only one you truly want.

SHARE YOUR FEELINGS OF GUILT AND SHAME: If you exhibit no shame or guilt for hurting them, they’ll wonder if you’re truly capable of being sensitive, caring or even feeling. They may see you as callous and self-absorbed, and question if it’s really worth another try with you. But if you’re like most people who have badly hurt someone you truly love, then you certainly feel shame and guilt, though verbalizing it may be hard for you. Of course, some people do find it difficult to express these feelings, but try. You’ll find it provides a great sense of relief to share this with your partner. Moreover, do not fail to realize is how vitally important it is for your partner to hear it, to feel it, to see it in your eyes. It’s a building block in the reconstruction of trust and the repair of your marriage. Do not underestimate the power of satisfying their need to know that you are disappointed in yourself. Your opening up about this will help them feel secure again, help them to heal, and help you heal, too.

LET THEM KNOW YOU ARE HAPPY WITH YOUR CHOICE TO RECOMMIT: You probably think this is obvious, but to your betrayed partner, precious little is obvious anymore. They will wonder about this. Do not make them guess, and do not make them ask. Just tell them. If it doesn’t seem to come naturally at first, it may help if every now and then, you ask yourself, “If they had betrayed me this way, would I still be here?” (Most of us would answer, “No,” even if we can’t imagine being in that position.) When people give second chances to others, they really want to know that it’s meaningful to, and appreciated by, the recipient. So, express your thanks. Tell them how grateful you are for the opportunity to repair the damage you’ve done and rebuild your marriage. You’ll be surprised how much this simple, heartfelt act of gratitude will mean to them, and how it helps to re-establish the bond between you.

HERE’S A GREAT TIP: You will find it’s particularly meaningful to them when they’re obviously feeling low, but they’re locked in silence and aren’t expressing it to you. Just imagine… In their moments of unspoken loneliness or despair, you walk up to them, hug them and say, “I just want you to know how grateful I am that you’re giving me a second chance. Thank you so much. I love you more than ever for this. I’ve been feeling so ashamed of what I did and how much pain I caused you. I want you to know that I’ll never do anything to hurt you like this – ever again. I know I broke your heart and it torments me. I want you to know your heart is safe with me again.”

These are beautifully comforting words, particularly when they’re delivered at such a perfect
moment. You can memorize the quote, modify it, or use your own words, whatever is most
comfortable for you. The key is to include, in no particular order, all six of these components:

A statement of gratitude.

An expression of your love.

An acknowledgment of your spouse’s pain.

An admission that you caused their pain.

An expression of your sense of shame.

A promise that it will never happen again

Unfaithful spouses I’ve counselled often report that this most welcome surprise is the best thing they did to lift their partner’s spirits – as well as their own.

SECTION 3 - SO WHAT ARE THE NEXT STAGES, AFTER THEY WORK THROUGH ALL THEIR GRIEF, PAIN AND STRESS?

HOPE: They believe they will get better. They still have good days and bad days, but the good days out balance the bad. Sometimes they can work effectively, enjoy activities and really care
for others.

COMMITMENT: They know they have a choice. Life won’t be the same, but they decide to actively begin building a new life.

SEEKING: They take initiative, renewing their involvement with former friends and activities. They
begin exploring new involvements.

PEACE: They feel able to accept the affair and its repercussions, and face their own future.

LIFE OPENS UP: Life has value and meaning again. They can enjoy, appreciate, and anticipate events. They are willing to let the rest of their life be all it can be. They can more easily seek and find joy.

FORGIVENESS: While the memory will never leave them, the burden they’ve been carrying from your betrayal is lifted. Given what you have done, the pain it caused them and the anguish they lived through, this is the ultimate gift they can bestow. They give it not only to you, but to themselves. Be grateful for this gift – and cherish it always.

Rejoice in your renewed commitment to spend your lives together in happiness. Celebrate it together regularly! </I>


----------



## gridcom

A few things to add to the equation

1- She wasn't a SAHM for 10 years. She had a well paying career job until 2010, then stayed home until 2011, then had a few jobs she hated, then found this job in early 2012.

2- To say our marriage was "sh!t" would be inaccurate. Our marriage was fun and happy and fulfilling for both of us. It was marred often enough by conflict that would make mountains out of molehills and be prolonged for longer periods than necessary. But to say that daily married life for either of us was "unhappy" or "unfulfilling" would not be accurate (at least to me). The fights, however, were BAD when they happened. I'd get over it but I suppose she let the bitterness build unbeknownst to me. But, we didnt live day to day walking around unhappy. This house was a fun place to be.

Lastly, she didnt buy a blender for that wedding. I think I was asked how she was going to pay for a gift and I said the only credit card not maxed out was the Best Buy card. Who knows, maybe she did buy a blender


----------



## Chaparral

Here is a classic:



Machiavelli said:


> User, continue to read NMMNG first, then MMSL. As you've been advised, forget FLL for the forseeable future.
> 
> I agree with what everybody else has said, but I want to give you a quick overview of some things that people have either mentioned or alluded to that you seem to have skimmed over.
> 
> Your wife is approaching 30. Her Testosterone levels, and thus her sex drive, just suddenly spiking upward two or three years back, they are the highest they'll ever be in her life for about the next 5-10 years. She has no preparation or experience to dealing with her present level of libido. The body does this to ensure she's copulating like mad between now and infertility. Hold that thought. Savor it.
> 
> With her libido approaching its peak, your wife's slumbering sexuality is awakened by a predator (that's defined as any normal male unencumbered by religious or societal restrictions - its a male in the natural state). Her brain is now flooded with PEA chemistry, dopamine, norepinephrine, adrenaline, etc. whenever she is around this guy who she realizes at some point is trying to seduce her. At some point she's willing to take his c*ck into her body and it's off to the races. Everytime he unloads in her (they never use rubbers in affairs for this reason) mood elevating chemicals (oxytocin, estrone), emotional bonding chemicals (vasopressin), and libido elevators (testosterone) are absorbed from his semen, through the vaginal wall, or alternatively under the tongue, and into her blood stream. This, combined with the crack-like high from the other brain chemicals she gets from the act of sex with any man who is not her husband, ensure that your wife becomes besotted (intoxicated) with the idea of sex with the OM(s). It becomes an addiction and a craving.
> 
> Because of the chemical bonding with the OM, many wives end up abandoning their homes and children to get another injection of what they perceive to be more Alpha. Even though they may know the relationship is going nowhere, they desperately need one more injection of the "drug." This is also why previously thought saintly mothers will turn into total slvts once the start up an affair. They'll do anything, including all the kinky stuff you wanted to do that they abhorred you for suggesting. They're up for whatever the AP wants to do, threesomes, orgies, toys, anal. You name it. She has to make these memories with OM now, just in case she ends up back with you. Got that? Think about it. Savor it.
> 
> That craving is what you're up against and that's why it was a lie that they only did it once. They've fooked many times. They're into mind-blowing kinky sh!t that your wife will never tell you about. The father of her children can never know she can be so insatiable and out of control in the sack.
> 
> Your wife, at least since she started willingly going along with her seduction, has been finding or inventing fault with you in order to feed her Rationalization Hamster. The RH is the part of the female brain that reconciles the sexual antics orchestrated by the Limbic brain with whatever her previous beliefs were about sex and marriage and motherhood. Those are rational thoughts which arise in the Cortex. As you can see, a decent woman, who previously expressed devotion to home and hearth, but is now willing to sacrifice her own children and their future emotional well being on the altar of her boyfriend's c0ck, has some serious issues with cognitive dissonance. Therefore it's your fault. Her RH will run around in its wheel until it gins up enough bogus contempt and hatred for you to justify all the evil she's done and is preparing to do to you. The kids are just collateral damage, but it can't be helped.
> 
> What you have to do is break through all that sex goddess chemistry that's in her head. The Limbic System and her 30 yr old body agenda is in complete control. If the Cortex gets in the driver's seat, she's remorseful and makes reconciliatory sounds in your direction, but as soon as she sees OM, and especially when they fook or she blows him, the Limbic is back in charge. That's why your wife is swinging like a pendulum, but it's a pendulum that swings less and less in your direction and more in the direction of OM(s).
> 
> The only way to reach her Cortex is shock therapy. Namely the shock of you turning into a Man.
> 
> Here's immediate action:
> 
> Find yourself on the Male Sexual Hierarchy so you see your shortcomings.
> 
> NMMNG, MMSL. Stay up and read.
> 
> Cancel the MC. Don't confront via a 3rd party. MC is useless in an affair. Save the money for the lawyer.
> 
> Demand her phone. Get it and download all the poop and d!ck photos he's sent her. Back up the data. What kind of phone does she have? If she doesn't hand it over, follow the previous instructions to put her stuff in garbage bags immediately. Deliver her and the bags to her mother's, not the OM's place. Dump it on her yard or front porch.
> 
> Get into her email, back it all up.
> 
> See that lawyer and find out what's going to happen. You're in Britain, right? Can't give you a clue on how that will go down, but start the divorce wheels turning right now. If she crawls on all fours and grabs your ankles, you can always stop the process.
> 
> DNA the youngest child. Tell your wife you're doing it. This sends a shot across her bows like nothing else.
> 
> Now, first thing after all that:
> See your doctor and ask him for a T panel workup. You probably have some issues there. Don't take no for an answer. At your age you should be at least 600 ng/ml. I bet yours are much lower. They will say you're in the normal range (300-1K), but if it's less than 600, you need to boost it.
> 
> Then change your look. New haircut, new clothes. The latest stuff for straight guys, whatever.
> 
> Don't spend too much on new clothes, because you're going to join the gym. Tell them you don't know what you're doing, but you want to build max muscle fast. Get rid of all your bodyfat. No bread, beer, or sugar. Train three days a week. Your goal is to look like this guy:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't waste time on "cardio" unless there is a good looking woman next to an empty treadmill.
> 
> Bottom line, you have to use these actions to hit your wife with the emotional force of a panzer division just to cut through all the chemical noise in her brain and shock the cortex into the driver's seat, otherwise your wife cannot see reason. That's why guys can never make their wives UNDERSTAND that they really don't want to run away and be a cumdumpster for the Hell's Angels.
> 
> To save the marriage, you must burn it. Time's fast running out. Alpha up now.


----------



## gridcom

Also, I did purchase the Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011. Haven't started reading. Tomorrow, I will.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

gridcom said:


> 2- To say our marriage was "sh!t" would be inaccurate. Our marriage was fun and happy and fulfilling for both of us. It was marred often enough by conflict that would make mountains out of molehills and be prolonged for longer periods than necessary. But to say that daily married life for either of us was "unhappy" or "unfulfilling" would not be accurate (at least to me). The fights, however, were BAD when they happened. I'd get over it but I suppose she let the bitterness build unbeknownst to me. But, we didnt live day to day walking around unhappy. This house was a fun place to be.


Sad irony. You jumped on numerous posters, me included, making sure we understood how terrible you were in this marriage. "OMG I was so terrible," "she had reason to feel this way," "I was abusive," and allowing certain posters to push you were a decade long abuser. Funny how some of those posters have accepted your truth and NOW you want to correct that thinking.

I hope the proper context correction means it has started with your own thinking. Nope, not minimizing your contributions to the marriage problems, but saying the above is a far cry from what you've been posting.


----------



## ConanHub

Chaparral said:


> Here is a classic:


I miss Mach. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TeddieG

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Sad irony. You jumped on numerous posters, me included, making sure we understood how terrible you were in this marriage. "OMG I was so terrible," "she had reason to feel this way," "I was abusive," and allowing certain posters to push you were a decade long abuser. Funny how some of those posters have accepted your truth and NOW you want to correct that thinking.
> 
> I hope the proper context correction means it has started with your own thinking. Nope, not minimizing your contributions to the marriage problems, but saying the above is a far cry from what you've been posting.


THIS!!!! :iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:l.


----------



## Chuck71

ConanHub said:


> I miss Mach.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


EVERYONE does


----------



## ConanHub

Chaparral said:


> Here is a classic:


That sexual hierarchy was fun.

I'm somewhere between a sigma and lambda. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

So she has worked at the job for more than three years. Did you notice any change in her during the emotional/physical PA? After you were blindsided by her confession you must have started to ransack your memory for all her mention of OM or the projects/responsibilities she had with him. 

There was a poster, JustGrinding, whose wife, a business woman, cheated with a customer or supplier, I forget which, she denied it, stonewalled. He went over every bit of possible information, matching every possible bit of data about her movements and was able to figure out the days she had been with him, even if he did not have a direct incriminating evidence. The guy was very sharp. He interrogated her so methodically she did not know whether she was coming or going. In the end he broke her and she confessed.

In the aftermath he was very bitter. He wanted profound remorse and she wanted just to recover normality. Many BH felt that his initial post, which was really cutting, spoke for them. However, afterwards he refused to either forgive his wife or divorce her. Their marriage was like a mummification. She had the scissors to free them but he would not tell her. It was up to her to discover remorse and express it with humility. That wasn't her. He related, though, how she was vulnerable. He finished giving their dog a bath and was rubbing it down with a towel and she said that she was jealous and wanted to given some love, too. She knew she was lower than the ****er spaniel. Another time she brushed against him in the kitchen and he drew away from her as if she had cut him with a blade.

People reading the thread admired and actually feared him. If someone twisted his words, he dressed them down. Jld would not have liked him. Many followers just wanted it to end, wishing he would divorce or bang her. But he just wanted to preserve the bitterness as a way of life. His married life was like a monument to remember a disaster. In the end, he just did not trust her enough to ever be vulnerable again. He was also not prepared to look ever again for another woman. JustGrinding amputated sex and intimacy from his marriage and kept the neutered frame. 

You're not that kind of person. To you the wound is recent if not fresh. It's not hurting as sharply but it's septic. Your idea is to lance the wound drain the pus, heal up and start living again. Jld thinks you can do this for both your wife and yourself. I think the unseen parts of the affair will lead to gangrene. And you cannot get at the injuries that you don't know about. Your wife is the one who knows where they lie. And she's not saying. Your marriage is now living on borrowed time.


----------



## bandit.45

There used to be another Bandit on TAM. He was a MMA fighter and he had a Japanese wife who cheated on him. He did the same thing as JustGrinding. He lived with her, tolerated her presence, never would have sex with her, basically treated her like a servant. He was 180 taken to the extreme. By the way he talked about her you would have thought she was a Nazi prostitute. 

I don't know whatever happened to him but I thought he was a d*ck. I was glad when he left.


----------



## LongWalk

JustGrinding or the other Bandit?


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Hmmmm great posts grid - you should pay attention. Feels like I'm watching Pulp Fiction where Mia says: 

"Ohhh, this doesn't sound like the usual mindless, boring, getting-to-know you chit-chat. This sounds like you actually have something to say."


----------



## ButtPunch

I miss Conrad and I know what he would say to the OP.

I see you're trying to nice your wife back, How's that working for you?


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Kuddos to you grid for being willing to put it all out there for us - totally get why WW would want this shut down.

This has got to be tough to process.

Can you do us a favor and kind of recap where your head is? Give us a timeline - from your perspective - on the evolution of your thinking... from first post to now..: and about your feelings... and your thinking... and your thoughts about your wife... and your thoughts about the POSOM. Also about your wife's evolution in actions and the way she trays you and what she says.

Let's hit the reset button in all the advice here... Tons of thoughts and recommendations... lots of people desperately trying to spare you the pain they endured...

But I think it's important to hear a thoughtful recap from you so the posts going forward address you where you are today. 

To TAM in general - Way way way too much crosstalk and anomosity and raw nerves and triggered anxiety. I totally get it but it's unhealthy for everyone. Let's reset based on where Grid is today.


----------



## happy as a clam

TheTruthHurts said:


> To TAM in general - *Way way way too much crosstalk *and anomosity and raw nerves and triggered anxiety. I totally get it but it's unhealthy for everyone. Let's reset based on where Grid is today.


I definitely agree with this. By my estimation, for every ONE post grid makes, there are about thirty posts amongst TAMers, many of them quite lengthy, with an inordinate amount of back and forth. Much of it is repetitious. I'm guilty too, so not placing blame or singling anyone out.

My head is spinning trying to absorb it all; I can only imagine how grid's must feel.

Of course, if grid finds it all to be helpful, just disregard this comment.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

TheTruthHurts said:


> Kuddos to you grid for being willing to put it all out there for us - totally get why WW would want this shut down.
> 
> This has got to be tough to process.
> 
> Can you do us a favor and kind of recap where your head is? Give us a timeline - from your perspective - on the evolution of your thinking... from first post to now..: and about your feelings... and your thinking... and your thoughts about your wife... and your thoughts about the POSOM. Also about your wife's evolution in actions and the way she trays you and what she says.
> 
> Let's hit the reset button in all the advice here... Tons of thoughts and recommendations... lots of people desperately trying to spare you the pain they endured...
> 
> But I think it's important to hear a thoughtful recap from you so the posts going forward address you where you are today.
> 
> To TAM in general - Way way way too much crosstalk and anomosity and raw nerves and triggered anxiety. I totally get it but it's unhealthy for everyone. Let's reset based on where Grid is today.


Maybe this is why all the great posters are not here anymore.....


----------



## gridcom

I wasn't shifting gears with my last post. My marriage before the affair was as I explained, mostly good and fun with sharp spikes of bad. But, it was not "consistently" bad, and I think ljd's post earlier had kind of alluded to that being the case. Maybe there's no difference. My marriage is the only one I am truly knowledgable with. I was abusive when we disputed. But, the picture was more like this house was constantly sad and bad, because of me. And that's not true

Where I am today? Why even mention it as it may not be where I am tomorrow. I have urges where I want to get the courage to truly end it, mainly because I still am convinced there was more to the PA than I have been told. I suspect some of my wife's current distance to me can be connected to something she doesnt want to reveal. And I think she knows that in order for our marriage to ever truly be real again, she's not going to be able to hide it and have it sit in her stomach. And I think that's a door she's really hesitant to enter.

That day may come, where I actually say "I'm out, lets do the mediation ASAP" but when it comes, I want to make sure I don't get weak and do an about face. So, because of that and because deep down I still truly love my wife and want to see my kids every day and raise them and not from a distance, I am willing to roll along and do my best through the Retrouvaille experience

Lets Go Mets


----------



## Chaparral

ConanHub said:


> I miss Mach.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We had so many great posters banned, sometimes TAM seems like a shell of its former self. Its okay to bait a poster but responding gets one banned.


----------



## truster

gridcom said:


> I have urges where I want to get the courage to truly end it, mainly because I still am convinced there was more to the PA than I have been told. I suspect some of my wife's current distance to me can be connected to something she doesnt want to reveal. And I think she knows that in order for our marriage to ever truly be real again, she's not going to be able to hide it and have it sit in her stomach. And I think that's a door she's really hesitant to enter.


So why not get out there and find out what other information is to be had? You have repeatedly stated that the information could sway your decision, and not knowing is obviously spinning you into an unproductive anxiety. Why not get the info, and stop the cycle of spinning in place, asking the same questions and weighing the same options?


----------



## TheTruthHurts

gridcom said:


> I wasn't shifting gears with my last post. My marriage before the affair was as I explained, mostly good and fun with sharp spikes of bad. But, it was not "consistently" bad, and I think ljd's post earlier had kind of alluded to that being the case. Maybe there's no difference. My marriage is the only one I am truly knowledgable with. I was abusive when we disputed. But, the picture was more like this house was constantly sad and bad, because of me. And that's not true
> 
> Where I am today? Why even mention it as it may not be where I am tomorrow. I have urges where I want to get the courage to truly end it, mainly because I still am convinced there was more to the PA than I have been told. I suspect some of my wife's current distance to me can be connected to something she doesnt want to reveal. And I think she knows that in order for our marriage to ever truly be real again, she's not going to be able to hide it and have it sit in her stomach. And I think that's a door she's really hesitant to enter.
> 
> That day may come, where I actually say "I'm out, lets do the mediation ASAP" but when it comes, I want to make sure I don't get weak and do an about face. So, because of that and because deep down I still truly love my wife and want to see my kids every day and raise them and not from a distance, I am willing to roll along and do my best through the Retrouvaille experience
> 
> Lets Go Mets


Thank you thank you thank you!!!

This is actually good stuff. It does matter where you are even if it seems so transient and crazy.

Guys suck at emotion and disregard them. Women cherish them. This we can respond to.

I get your fear. It is very understandable.

You've mentioned your wife's pride. By his would be almost impossible for her to fess up to and swallow her pride and admit she f*d and screwed you, your kid and herself.

Is there any chance you can ask her for a truce? Let her know you know there is more and you know she doesn't want to admit it? Let her know you are longing for the opportunity to forgive but she needs to step up and spill and then ask?

Is that what you want?


----------



## jld

gridcom said:


> I wasn't shifting gears with my last post. My marriage before the affair was as I explained, mostly good and fun with sharp spikes of bad. But, it was not "consistently" bad, and I think ljd's post earlier had kind of alluded to that being the case. Maybe there's no difference. My marriage is the only one I am truly knowledgable with. I was abusive when we disputed. But, the picture was more like this house was constantly sad and bad, because of me. And that's not true
> 
> Where I am today? Why even mention it as it may not be where I am tomorrow. I have urges where I want to get the courage to truly end it, mainly because I still am convinced there was more to the PA than I have been told. I suspect some of my wife's current distance to me can be connected to something she doesnt want to reveal. And I think she knows that in order for our marriage to ever truly be real again, she's not going to be able to hide it and have it sit in her stomach. And I think that's a door she's really hesitant to enter.
> 
> That day may come, where I actually say "I'm out, lets do the mediation ASAP" but when it comes, I want to make sure I don't get weak and do an about face. So, because of that and because deep down I still truly love my wife and want to see my kids every day and raise them and not from a distance, I am willing to roll along and do my best through the Retrouvaille experience
> 
> Lets Go Mets


That is indeed the impression I had from your earlier posts, grid, that the marriage was bad for a decade, due to your abusiveness. Sorry to have misunderstood.

I really hope Retrouvaille is a great experience for both of you, a turning point in the marriage.


----------



## turnera

You know what breaks unhealthy (and marriage-damaging) pride?

Losing everything.


----------



## ButtPunch

Grid your wife isn't who you thought she was and your marriage as you once knew is over. 

The crosstalk is due to 25 posters recommending the 180 and 1 poster advising the exact opposite. We have a clash of fundamental philosophies. 180 and focus on yourself vs. manipulate her back to the marriage with empathy and humility.

The two ideas are fundamentally opposites. 

Grid and his wife have to own their pos tendencies for a true reconciliation to occur and I don't see either of them there yet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Another Planet

gridcom said:


> I wasn't shifting gears with my last post. My marriage before the affair was as I explained, mostly good and fun with sharp spikes of bad. But, it was not "consistently" bad, and I think ljd's post earlier had kind of alluded to that being the case. Maybe there's no difference. My marriage is the only one I am truly knowledgable with. I was abusive when we disputed. But, the picture was more like this house was constantly sad and bad, because of me. And that's not true
> 
> Where I am today? Why even mention it as it may not be where I am tomorrow. I have urges where I want to get the courage to truly end it, mainly because I still am convinced there was more to the PA than I have been told. I suspect some of my wife's current distance to me can be connected to something she doesnt want to reveal. And I think she knows that in order for our marriage to ever truly be real again, she's not going to be able to hide it and have it sit in her stomach. And I think that's a door she's really hesitant to enter.
> 
> That day may come, where I actually say "I'm out, lets do the mediation ASAP" but when it comes, I want to make sure I don't get weak and do an about face. So, because of that and because deep down I still truly love my wife and want to see my kids every day and raise them and not from a distance, I am willing to roll along and do my best through the Retrouvaille experience
> 
> Lets Go Mets


You are allowed to love someone and let them go...
For yourself sometimes it is necessary.


----------



## happy as a clam

ButtPunch said:


> The crosstalk is due to 25 posters recommending the 180 and 1 poster advising the exact opposite. We have a clash of fundamental philosophies.


QFT.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TheTruthHurts

happy as a clam said:


> ButtPunch said:
> 
> 
> 
> The crosstalk is due to 25 posters recommending the 180 and 1 poster advising the exact opposite. We have a clash of fundamental philosophies.
> 
> 
> 
> QFT.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
Click to expand...

I think it goes beyond that. I think the tone of the one poster is so high and mighty - and all knowing - and dismissive of other posters that triggers a visceral response. So I think it isn't just a difference if opinions.


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> Grid your wife isn't who you thought she was and your marriage as you once knew is over.
> 
> The crosstalk is due to 25 posters recommending the 180 and 1 poster advising the exact opposite. We have a clash of fundamental philosophies. 180 and focus on yourself vs. manipulate her back to the marriage with empathy and humility.
> 
> The two ideas are fundamentally opposites.
> 
> Grid and his wife have to own their pos tendencies for a true reconciliation to occur and I don't see either of them there yet.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


BP. You cannot "manipulate" someone back into a marriage with empathy and humility. Remember the definition of manipulate?

"to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage"

There is nothing artful, unfair, or insidious about extending empathy and acting in humility towards someone. And reconciliation is not only to grid's own advantage. His wife and kids benefit, too.



Grid, I really hope your wife can come clean to you regarding your suspicions about the extent of her affair. If she did lie to you and it was more than once, I am sure that will be hard to hear. 

I would think it would be hard to promise to forgive before you know all the details. You can't promise her it is safe to say everything if, depending on what you hear, you might decide to divorce her.


----------



## Evinrude58

Sooooooo,
Grid, you surely realize that people you love the most, are the ones that can make you the most angry? Lots of couples have fights. Bad ones. You could have been a better husband. So could every man on this site, and in the world, that has a faithful wife who loves him. You have been forced by your own conscience, the shock of learning your wife betrayed you, and your wife's raging desire to justify her betrayal , by making you out to be a monster, to see yourself as an abusive husband. You are not. An abusive person is mean on an almost daily basis, and constantly imposes their will on the other person. 

If she were remorseful, you'd know it beyond a shadow of a doubt, and her attitude would be improving as your relationship improved. She is upset and depressed all the time because her life (in her mind)is all fu**ed up and reconciling with you, which she knows she could do at any time, is not in what she considers a happy future. 

I hope something happens at the retrouvilke thing results in some epiphany.

If it does not, please consider freeing yourself from this emotional torture of being with a remorseless, unfaithful, unhappy wife. Jld makes all these comments about how you can do things to fix it. You can't. Your wife is NOT the person you married, and you know it. The person you married loved you, right? 

You can get through this, but not if you give up on happiness and decide to keep hoping and trying until a richer OM comes along. Remember, she has filed, won't dismiss, and you are headed for divorce. Don't dread it in a hopeless frame of mind. There is happiness for you again. And when you give up on her and get your mind right again, you will be able to see more clearly that your current wife is a selfish, disloyal, low character type of that you are better off without. 

One last thing---- YOU count, too. It's not all about her like jld and your wife want you to believe. You deserve a woman who LOVES you.


----------



## jld

TheTruthHurts said:


> I think it goes beyond that. I think the tone of the one poster is so high and mighty - and all knowing - and dismissive of other posters that triggers a visceral response. So I think it isn't just a difference if opinions.


My opinion is one opinion among many. No more, no less. And you are free to ignore it.

And the value of a forum is in hearing a variety of views, not just one repeated "25" times.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> BP. You cannot "manipulate" someone back into a marriage with empathy and humility. Remember the definition of manipulate?
> 
> "to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage"
> 
> There is nothing artful, unfair, or insidious about extending empathy and acting in humility towards someone. And reconciliation is not only to grid's own advantage. His wife and kids benefit, too.
> .


:laugh::surprise::surprise:
JLD you dont get it. What you are saying is artful unfair and insidious. Its a pathetic attempt at manipulation. Its not authentic and is no different than the tatics pua use to bed women.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> BP. You cannot "manipulate" someone back into a marriage with empathy and humility. Remember the definition of manipulate?
> 
> "to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage"
> 
> There is nothing artful, unfair, or insidious about extending empathy and acting in humility towards someone. And reconciliation is not only to grid's own advantage. His wife and kids benefit, too.
> 
> 
> 
> Grid, I really hope your wife can come clean to you regarding your suspicions about the extent of her affair. If she did lie to you and it was more than once, I am sure that will be hard to hear.
> 
> I would think it would be hard to promise to forgive before you know all the details. You can't promise her it is safe to say everything if, depending on what you hear, you might decide to divorce her.


JLD, in my early days I "empathied" my way into the panties of several women. 

Yes, it CAN be used for manipulation...


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> My opinion is one opinion among many. No more, no less. And you are free to ignore it.
> 
> And the value of a forum is in hearing a variety of views, not just one repeated "25" times.


Point me to a thread where your infidelity advice works.


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> :laugh::surprise::surprise:
> JLD you dont get it. What you are saying is artful unfair and insidious. Its a pathetic attempt at manipulation. Its not authentic and is no different than the tatics pua use to bed women.


Disagree.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> JLD, in my early days I "empathied" my way into the panties of several women.
> 
> Yes, it CAN be used for manipulation...


I am confident grid would not employ empathy in any manipulative way, far. I believe he is sincere in his feelings towards his wife.


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> Point me to a thread where your infidelity advice works.


Stillkeepinghopeful.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> Stillkeepinghopeful.


Is this a thread? I searched and got nothing.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> I am confident grid would not employ empathy in any manipulative way, far. I believe he is sincere in his feelings towards his wife.


This is exactly where I wanted you to go.

Intent, not execution, determines manipulation.

The 180 is no different.


----------



## jld

BP, we disagree. Like you said, our philosophies are fundamentally opposite. They have different target audiences.

For a submissive male trying to get power in a relationship, your advice is spot on. 

My target audience is dominant males who have misused their power. For them, it is essential to back off and start listening, really listening, to what their wives think and feel. Instead of running roughshod over them, like they are used to, they need to be patient, seek to understand, and show some kindness. That will earn the trust of the kind of wife they are likely to have.

I think grid is a dominant male, and this is why I have been a part of this thread. 

But maybe I am wrong. Maybe I misjudged him. If that is the case, I will be happy to leave you and your 24 companions to dispense your advice.

And now, good night.


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> Is this a thread? I searched and got nothing.


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/consid...home-i-doubt-she-will-like-advice-please.html

All right, now I really am going to bed. Good night!


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> I am confident grid would not employ empathy in any manipulative way, far. I believe he is sincere in his feelings towards his wife.[/Q How do you know this? Omnipotence.
> 
> I could give advice to midgets despite the fact I'm 6`2`. You have zero infidelity experience. Zero.


----------



## Another Planet

jld said:


> BP, we disagree. Like you said, our philosophies are fundamentally opposite. They have different target audiences.
> 
> For a submissive male trying to get power in a relationship, your advice is spot on.
> 
> My target audience is dominant males who have misused their power. For them, it is essential to back off and start listening, really listening, to what their wives think and feel. Instead of running roughshod over them, like they are used to, they need to be patient, seek to understand, and show some kindness. That will earn the trust of the kind of wife they are likely to have.
> 
> I think grid is a dominant male, and this is why I have been a part of this thread.
> 
> But maybe I am wrong. Maybe I misjudged him. If that is the case, I will be happy to leave you and your 24 companions to dispense your advice.
> 
> And now, good night.


Nice...smh

For your information so called "dominate males" would have no use for your information or guidance and would really give 2 ****s what you have to say about it.
BUT we live in real world not story book make believe where alphas and betas and omegas rule everyones day to day life.

Spoiler alert!!!!! It's just sensational so it can sell more motivational books to insecure people! :surprise:


----------



## LongWalk

Grid,

Excellent. You realize that you stand on a brutal mountain path in a chill fog, not knowing whether the upward climb is going to continue only to end in the insurmountable. Early on in your thread Morituri popped up. I would count him as one of TAM's great posters. Will Kane. Mach, in his way. Conrad. Mavash. But you, too, are a good poster. You are helping many others. Here is what Morituri had to say before he vanished:



> You are in panic mode because your wife wants to end the marriage to be with another man, but *IF* she comes out of the fog and expresses a desire to reconcile, *that panic may well turn into anger and bitterness on your part*. Don't kid yourself, it happens to a lot of BS in your situation and knowing how to let go of it is essential for not just the well being of the marriage but for yours as well. And no matter what happens to your marriage, it is essential that you start the exorcism of the toxic twins, *anger and bitterness*, from your heart and soul as soon as possible.
> 
> Please consider not making any commitments either for or against continuing with the marriage for *at least a couple of months* so that you can get a better handle on your emotions which right now are all over the place and ruling your actions. Any long term and life altering decisions on your part must be done with *your head and not your heart*.


The French philosopher and mathematician Rene Descartes once said:



> I drink beer and root for the Mets, therefore I am Grid.


As long as this remains true you will be all right. You will have your daughters always. Double check on your drum set and baseball cards to see that your cheating wife has not sold them on Ebay or Craig's list.

Another quote by Descartes










Your wife said that she has been in love with OM for a year and tested sexual intercourse with him just once. That is cheater speak for some other set of facts. Since your wife is a liar it would be foolish to take her word about the affair.

Historian sometimes go to great lengths to debate conclusions. How many soldiers fought in a particular nation shaping battle? At one time they would read all the accounts of the times and those of later sources. They would compare the reliability of the reporters and make an educated guess.

As historical method improved scholars found new angles of inference. They could study tax revenues after the war and guess how many men had been lost, for example. Eventually, historians teamed up with archeologists who dug up battle sites and counted bones, swords and arrow heads.

If you were JustGrinding, you would copy your wife's Facebook pages for the past three years, get her credit card bills, cell records and do the same with yours, too. You would study the milage required to add a trip to OM's house, etc, etc. If you go forensic, you can piece together the truth down to OM's high school year book picture.

She may have many messages to OM on some app in her phone. All you need to do is get her password and reconstruct what she has deleted. Weightlifter and Gus have a great deal of technical knowledge.

Doing this would suck away a lot of time and energy. It would not be conducive to the 180. 

Your wife may correctly figure that if she comes clean, your marriage has no chance. It is entirely reasonable to guess that she was banging OM for the better part of the so-called year in love. That would explain exactly why she inflicted the particular blow that she did. It was calculated to put in her in the best light. She loved OM for a year chastely but then it suddenly escalated. As soon as went physical, she confessed.

Your wife gives no explanation about why she went from being a liar to being very honest. Re-read the the Descartes quote.

Assume the worst about the affair. Keep to the 180 in the form that is best for your daughters and a civil every day life. Play the drums to deal with the anger and bitterness.

At Retrouvaille your wife may come clean. She may not. 

Almost recovered – the GreenTurtle guy – is a success story.


----------



## TeddieG

Another Planet said:


> You are allowed to love someone and let them go...
> For yourself sometimes it is necessary.


I hate to come in and post following a brilliant post by LongWalk. Wouldn't want to interrupt the fantastic train of his amazing insight and food for thought. 

But I was catching up, this quote struck me as well. 

Every morning and every evening I take stock of my emotional status. Some mornings I'm relieved I'm soon going to be rid of his demons, and others I miss him, want the guy he was back, other mornings I remember and acknowledge that don't like the mean angry guy he's become. I've seen the bitterness and anger when he's broken up with the OW and been on the receiving end of it since he started the divorce (but never any other time since this started). Because he's been cake-eating he's angry to lose THIS gravy train, and someday he WILL resent letting her tell him what to do, which she does on a regular basis. In his limited mental state, he needs the structure and she needs to manage him, but he WILL resent it. 

But I had my epiphany in the wee hours of this morning. 

Lately I realized that I had done the 180, detached, did all the things I was supposed to do (and my counselor used to say I was really committed to doing things "right," as in, suggesting that something inside me was always afraid of NOT doing everything right). I signed the final consent decree for a divorce five years ago only for him to show up and say he didn't want to go through with it, and I agreed to a dismissal. He screamed at me a month ago that if I hadn't, he'd have married her and been happy with her and her kid all this time and he wouldn't have hurt her (forget that he hurt me - that doesn't factor into his equations at ALL, but someday he'll feel it, deep, as he did when all this broke out). For seven years I honored my vows to a man who has developed severe physical health issues and whose mental health issues blew up in our faces. For a long time I felt that indifference or even divorce would make me feel I had abandoned him. But when OW laid down the law and said to get into her panties he had to marry her; thus the die is cast. 

"You are allowed to love someone and let them go..."

After 7 years, I am finally here. Don't spend 7 years on it, Grid. 

And my epiphany this morning? Everything might have been different if I was dealing with a normal man.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> This is exactly where I wanted you to go.
> 
> Intent, not execution, determines manipulation.
> 
> The 180 is no different.


I don't think intent matters with the 180, far. The way I understand it, it is a tool for emotional detachment, pure and simple.

If a man is meeting all his wife's emotional needs, but getting little in return, the 180 can open up a space for her to realize how much he does for her. She may then choose to reciprocate, instead of continuing to take him for granted. 

But if the man is already lacking much emotional connection to his wife, hardly meeting her emotional needs at all, maybe not even aware of what they are, the 180 could detach him right out of the relationship. 

If grid is not making many deposits into his wife's emotional bank account, but either getting after her or not saying much, then the 180 is probably going to feel like a relief to her. At least he is not making snarky comments anymore, she might feel. And she will be left pretty much alone emotionally in the relationship, not much different than she probably feels right now.

I think the 180, if faithfully executed by grid, has a good chance of ending his marriage.


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> I could give advice to midgets despite the fact I'm 6`2`. You have zero infidelity experience. Zero.


Neither does Turnera. Yet you are okay with her posting because she agrees with your views.


----------



## Chuck71

Grid.... there was a guy here, been couple years. Not exact situation as yours but close.

His thread too.... became as this. He formed a closed group, selected eight people. 

Four males, four females. He returned about a year later with a short update. 

Food for thought.....


----------



## TeddieG

Chuck71 said:


> Grid.... there was a guy here, been couple years. Not exact situation as yours but close.
> 
> His thread too.... became as this. He formed a closed group, selected eight people.
> 
> Four males, four females. He returned about a year later with a short update.
> 
> Food for thought.....


Grid, you might consider that. I'm signing off this thread, will read but probably not post anymore. You've been given all the ammunition you need, grasshopper, and your mentors will stick with you. Godspeed!


----------



## Keepin-my-head-up

TeddieG said:


> I hate to come in and post following a brilliant post by LongWalk. Wouldn't want to interrupt the fantastic train of his amazing insight and food for thought.
> 
> But I was catching up, this quote struck me as well.
> 
> Every morning and every evening I take stock of my emotional status. Some mornings I'm relieved I'm soon going to be rid of his demons, and others I miss him, want the guy he was back, other mornings I remember and acknowledge that don't like the mean angry guy he's become. I've seen the bitterness and anger when he's broken up with the OW and been on the receiving end of it since he started the divorce (but never any other time since this started). Because he's been cake-eating he's angry to lose THIS gravy train, and someday he WILL resent letting her tell him what to do, which she does on a regular basis. In his limited mental state, he needs the structure and she needs to manage him, but he WILL resent it.
> 
> But I had my epiphany in the wee hours of this morning.
> 
> Lately I realized that I had done the 180, detached, did all the things I was supposed to do (and my counselor used to say I was really committed to doing things "right," as in, suggesting that something inside me was always afraid of NOT doing everything right). I signed the final consent decree for a divorce five years ago only for him to show up and say he didn't want to go through with it, and I agreed to a dismissal. He screamed at me a month ago that if I hadn't, he'd have married her and been happy with her and her kid all this time and he wouldn't have hurt her (forget that he hurt me - that doesn't factor into his equations at ALL, but someday he'll feel it, deep, as he did when all this broke out). For seven years I honored my vows to a man who has developed severe physical health issues and whose mental health issues blew up in our faces. For a long time I felt that indifference or even divorce would make me feel I had abandoned him. But when OW laid down the law and said to get into her panties he had to marry her; thus the die is cast.
> 
> "You are allowed to love someone and let them go..."
> 
> After 7 years, I am finally here. Don't spend 7 years on it, Grid.
> 
> And my epiphany this morning? Everything might have been different if I was dealing with a normal man.


This showed up in my email because I receive notices from this thread.


Sort of a threadjack so my apologies.

TeddieG,
I am truly sorry that you had to put up with your husband telling you how much better off he would have been with that other woman.
And to have to live with that for however long.
I am so glad you came out a stronger person.
Good for you!
Your post got to me.

Ok, that is all


----------



## TeddieG

Keepin-my-head-up said:


> This showed up in my email because I receive notices from this thread.
> 
> 
> Sort of a threadjack so my apologies.
> 
> TeddieG,
> I am truly sorry that you had to put up with your husband telling you how much better off he would have been with that other woman.
> And to have to live with that for however long.
> I am so glad you came out a stronger person.
> Good for you!
> Your post got to me.
> 
> Ok, that is all


Thanks, keepin'. He told me this about two months ago, I guess, right after his surgery and he was having angst about his mortality. The thing about all of it is, I was moving on; I was in England for a conference and for a family visit and taking my mother to see her relatives for the last time because she was dying of cancer, and he called me WHILE I WAS IN ENGLAND wanting to really fully reconcile, apologized for all the mess the past 7 years, so sorry, wanted back in . . . that was in late June, his surgery was August 10, and he put in his two weeks of recovery and then had to go see OW, because he almost died on the table, he SAYS. Her family confronted him about coming and going and basically called him out as a POS and he responded by proposing. So his outburst about the past five years and how he could have been with this woman and her kid was about two months ago. He wanted a divorce, right then, right now, and I said, I have four months to finish my dissertation or not get to do it, could we not wait until January? And then he came home again, when my mother died, acting like he was done with OW, and he wanted to go to my mother's funeral. And again, mortality struck fear in his heart and he was texting OW again. But that moment was when I knew I was done. I know he's sick, I know he has problems, I know I took a vow and promised to be there for better or worse, in sickness and in health, but he's really not sick enough that he can't figure out he's messed up, and he even said so. When he was thinking of contacting OW after the surgery, he said, I am SO fooked up, and I said, bi polar will do that to you. He doesn't want anybody helping him or supporting him to realize what his problem is; he wants to relish it as an excuse for his selfish behavior, and he likes feeling powerless. 

So I am letting him go for OW to control, in good conscience and with no regrets. 

Thanks again, keepin'. 

Sorry for the threadjack, all.


----------



## farsidejunky

TeddieG said:


> Thanks, keepin'. He told me this about a month ago, right after his surgery and he was having angst about his mortality. The thing about all of it is, I was moving on; I was in England for a conference and for a family visit and taking my mother to see her relatives for the last time because she was dying of cancer, and he called me WHILE I WAS IN ENGLAND wanting to really fully reconcile, apologized for all the mess the past 7 years, so sorry, wanted back in . . . that was in late June, his surgery was August 10, and he put in his two weeks of recovery and then had to go see OW, because he almost died on the table, he SAYS. Her family confronted him about coming and going and basically called him out as a POS and he responded by proposing. So his outburst about the past five years and how he could have been with this woman and her kid was about two months ago. He wanted a divorce, right then, right now, and I said, I have four months to finish my dissertation or not get to do it, could we not wait until January? And then he came home again, when my mother died, acting like he was done with OW, and he wanted to go to my mother's funeral. And again, mortality struck fear in his heart and he was texting OW again. But that moment was when I knew I was done. I know he's sick, I know he has problems, I know I took a vow and promised to be there for better or worse, in sickness and in health, but he's really not sick enough that he can't figure out he's messed up, and he even said so. When he was thinking of contacting OW after the surgery, he said, I am SO fooked up, and I said, bi polar will do that to you. He doesn't want anybody helping him or supporting him to realize what his problem is; he wants to relish it as an excuse for his selfish behavior, and he likes feeling powerless.
> 
> So I am letting him go for OW to control, in good conscience and with no regrets.
> 
> Thanks again, keepin'.
> 
> Sorry for the threadjack.


They sound like a match made in heaven...or some other place...


----------



## TeddieG

Oh yeah. My lawyer even said she was going to ask, in our proposal for a final decree, that I remain the beneficiary on his life insurance policy. She said, given how volatile that relationship is, the chances of them being together in 3 years is virtually nil. But I bet they are. I'll bet you MONEY they are. 

Sorry for the threadjack!! But now you can all see, I suppose, why jld's posts just produce such a visceral response in me. Only those who have experienced infidelity would believe some of this stuff.


----------



## Chaparral

ButtPunch said:


> Is this a thread? I searched and got nothing.


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/consid...home-i-doubt-she-will-like-advice-please.html

Here's a link and its also been bumped. I disagree that plan A is what worked on this thread but I haven't had time to reread the thread. My take was Still came around, stood his ground, and when things started hitting the fan along with her Posom getting scared off, she realized there was a good chance she would lose everything including her kids. Also, this wasn't her first rodeo. 

Feel free to correct me if my memory has failed me................again.0


----------



## happyman64

gridcom said:


> Let me know if I am wrong here
> 
> One of my wife's co-workers knew about the affair. She was a main part of the little post work bar/drinking circle that this affair was born from. When the affair happened, this woman tried to protect my wife from my snooping and I also found a text where she was speaking on behalf of the OM and told my wife that he was sad that it was falling apart (this was 8 weeks ago, at least). She was also the woman who told the OM that I was in the bar the night I accidentally ended up in the same bar as this guy and told him to scoot out of there before trouble.
> 
> Anyway, my wife just now casually mentions to me that this friend might stop by to visit, and in a way like none of the above ever happened. In my current "focus on me, leave it alone (for now)" frame of mind, I still couldnt help but be like "Uh, she's not welcome in this house. She encouraged an affair" My wife DEFENDS her friend. Quick little back and forth and my wife had to leave.
> 
> Am I out of line?
> 
> I already know the answer!!!!!
> 
> Sorry. Venting.
> 
> So OBVIOUS
> 
> EDIT: This woman is also freshly married. I feel bad for her husband


You should let her husband know what his wife is capable of. Again.

That will let he friend know how you feel about her and let her husband know where his wife stands when it comes to an affair.

Don't tell your wife you are doing this. Just act.


----------



## Chuck71

Chaparral said:


> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/consid...home-i-doubt-she-will-like-advice-please.html
> 
> Here's a link and its also been bumped. I disagree that plan A is what worked on this thread but I haven't had time to reread the thread. My take was Still came around, stood his ground, and when things started hitting the fan along with her Posom getting scared off, she realized there was a good chance she would lose everything including her kids. Also, this wasn't her first rodeo.
> 
> Feel free to direct me if my memory has failed me................again.0


Makes one speculate what she would have done if POSOM hadn't run for the hills.....


----------



## jld

Chaparral said:


> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/consid...home-i-doubt-she-will-like-advice-please.html
> 
> Here's a link and its also been bumped. I disagree that plan A is what worked on this thread but I haven't had time to reread the thread. My take was Still came around, stood his ground, and when things started hitting the fan along with her Posom getting scared off, she realized there was a good chance she would lose everything including her kids. Also, this wasn't her first rodeo.
> 
> Feel free to direct me if my memory has failed me................again.0


He said in his thread that he wrote her a letter as directed by the Hardened Wife link, and his wife said it moved her. She decided to give him another chance.

Still was very clear that he had not done everything right in his marriage. He humbled himself quite a bit by writing that letter, and by being patient with her when she started to move toward him. He got grief for that from some of the same folks who are in this thread.

Grid, you might want to read his thread. He was angry, too, at various points. But ultimately he decided she was worth it, and reached out to her with patience and empathy.

Her affair was only an EA, though. I am sure it is harder to forgive the farther along these affairs go.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Take your debate to PMs, please. Stop hijacking Grid's thread with the attempts to prove oneself "right".

Or go start another thread.


----------



## jld

ThreeStrikes said:


> Take your debate to PMs, please. Stop hijacking Grid's thread with the attempts to prove oneself "right".
> 
> Or go start another thread.


Everything that has been said has been relevant to grid's situation.

Grid seems to appreciate hearing different views.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> Neither does Turnera. Yet you are okay with her posting because she agrees with your views.


Point taken.

Turnera does give good advice though. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## manfromlamancha

@jld

JLD I really do understand and appreciate your approach. The only thing is I didn't see Mrs Grid as you did. And I believe that has been cleared up by Grid. Sure, if Mrs Grid was a SAHM, deprived, abused and then she met up with a guy who showed her attention, she might stray (although even then I would have hoped her moral compass would steer her right). But that is not the case here and for the life of me, I didn't know where you were getting that. I think the other thread you referred to was a different case.

@Grid

If you truly believe that there is more to this, then Mrs Grid is even more insidious than I thought. This must be hard to hear her being the mother of your kids and someone who loved you (I hope) for so long. What do you want to do about this ? And more importantly, what are you going to do about this ? You need to force her hand to come clean and if she doesn't, don't you think its time to end it decisively. Is finance the only thing that is holding you back ?


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> Neither does Turnera. Yet you are okay with her posting because she agrees with your views.


Actually I believe she does. Her fiance from before her current marriage was cheating on her IIRC.


----------



## LongWalk

Let jld splash paint on the canvas. She may be right that Mrs Grid wants a soft landing with forgiveness for what will not be spoken about because she's not telling.

There are different fantasy resolutions. There are chick flick endings – in the film Pretty Woman, prostitute meets azzhole to form a heartwarming but dysfunctional attachment. After a little fiddling around they discover they can fix each other and form a nuclear family. There are movies that end with dramatic car chases. Car after car is destroyed until at last the hero gets out and the police who were trying to kill him realize he was actually innocent and can go home to his wife who never gave up faith in him.

Mostly TAM posters advise that co-dependent relationships rarely end without drama and trouble. The cheating wife still wants the BH to change her snow tires is normal. The cheater who wants to bring his new OW to the kid's soccer game and introduce him to 87-year-old ex-granddad-in-law is standard. The WH who files for divorce and then sends his STBX a message – "Naked party?" is par for the course.

The 180 is the tool for survival and healing. if Grid divorces his wife and she turns her life around, they can reconsider a new marriage. Since she has seen so clearly that a life without him is not only possible but is even worth spending a few hundred dollars in the divorce petition filing fee, Grid would be dumb to not see that life without her is also quite possibly a good bet.

Teddie threw away good money after bad by betting on her husband. Trying to save a marriage too hard has opportunity costs.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Actually I believe she does. Her fiance from before her current marriage was cheating on her IIRC.


Well, that is close to infidelity in marriage.

I still think the issue is having a different opinion than the standard TAM approach.


----------



## ButtPunch

Chaparral said:


> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/consid...home-i-doubt-she-will-like-advice-please.html
> 
> Here's a link and its also been bumped. I disagree that plan A is what worked on this thread but I haven't had time to reread the thread. My take was Still came around, stood his ground, and when things started hitting the fan along with her Posom getting scared off, she realized there was a good chance she would lose everything including her kids. Also, this wasn't her first rodeo.
> 
> Feel free to correct me if my memory has failed me................again.0


Chap

I don't think what JLD is suggesting is Plan A anymore. Even Dr.Harley put pressure on the WS financially emotionally domestically. Its a I love you so go be happy with OM approach. However when real world problems hit the AP's the fog begins to lift. We can't go to dinner OM because I HAVE the kids. I don't have enough money to pay all my bills OM. These problems can evaporate the fog really quickly and make the WS have an oh sh+t moment.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

LongWalk said:


> The 180 is the tool for survival and healing. if Grid divorces his wife and she turns her life around, they can reconsider a new marriage. Since she has seen so clearly that a life without him is not only possible but is even worth spending a few hundred dollars in the divorce petition filing fee, Grid would be dumb to not see that life without her is also quite possibly a good bet.


Giving up and divorcing is certainly one approach. If they go through mediation, and Mrs. Grid gives up alimony, grid may come out okay financially.

He has said she will not have any trouble finding someone else. If that is true, and the new man has some money, she may be financially okay, too.

But grid still loves her. Their daughters would still like to see them together. They could avoid the expense of divorce and setting up two households. And considering they have had a dozen not entirely bad years together, there are memories to build on. There are valid reasons to encourage them towards reconciliation.

I would really like to see Mrs. Grid come clean to grid. I am just not sure she will do that without some sense of safety. I keep pushing him to make it safe for her to come to him. 

I would hope that there is enough love in his heart to forgive her. I would hope that they could each own their own hand in their marital issues, and move forward with healthier habits.

But I can understand that if his love for her is not solid, then he has to know the full story first to decide if he can forgive. We all want the freedom to make free will choices.


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> Chap
> 
> I don't think what JLD is suggesting is Plan A anymore. Even Dr.Harley put pressure on the WS financially emotionally domestically. Its a I love you so go be happy with OM approach. However when real world problems hit the AP's the fog begins to lift. We can't go to dinner OM because I HAVE the kids. I don't have enough money to pay all my bills OM. These problems can evaporate the fog really quickly and make the WS have an oh sh+t moment.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What I am suggesting is that grid start meeting his wife's emotional needs and work on his own issues, like refraining from making unkind comments that make her withdraw from him. By getting his emotions under control, and starting to do the things that make her feel safe and loved and close to him, she should be drawn back to him. 

Just telling her that everything is all her fault and she has to fix it is unlikely to get them to true reconciliation. My concern is that, at best, if she is even able to undertake that, it will be a biding of her time, doing what grid commands, until she gets enough courage and money to leave him.

I think this marriage is worth saving. I think reconciliation is worth it for them.

But I think it is going to be up to grid to get it started. I don't think grid's wife can lead the way, which is what everyone else seems to expect.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> What I am suggesting is that grid start meeting his wife's emotional needs and work on his own issues, like refraining from making unkind comments that make her withdraw from him. By getting his emotions under control, and starting to do the things that make her feel safe and loved and close to him, she should be drawn back to him.
> 
> Just telling her that everything is all her fault and she has to fix it is unlikely to get them to true reconciliation. My concern is that, at best, if she is even able to undertake that, it will be a biding of her time, doing what grid commands, until she gets enough courage and money to leave him.
> 
> I think this marriage is worth saving. I think reconciliation is worth it for them.
> 
> But I think it is going to be up to grid to get it started. I don't think grid's wife can lead the way, which is what everyone else seems to expect.


I hear you JLD I really do, but Mrs. Grid is in the fog. Her love bank is closed. It won't be taking any deposits from Grid until the fog is lifted.


----------



## LongWalk

> I would really like to see Mrs. Grid come clean to grid. I am just not sure she will do that without some sense of safety. I keep pushing him to make it safe for her to come to him.


Sure jld it's possible. It could be like this:

One night after the kids are asleep Grid and his wife somehow end up teaming up to do the dishes. At the end, Grid looks her in the eye with just the right expression and asks her if she is his 'alley cat'. She doesn't know what to make of him but he pushing her emotional buttons just right and she can't help cracking a smile.

After the HB, she starts to cry and wants to confess, but he breaks her off and says no need to dwell on the past. Then she feels super safe and loved and wants to make things up with him for the rest of their life. Same goes from his side.

But this is just a fantasy. So far everything she has done suggests that honesty is unthinkable to her.

In addition to what went on before Dday, there may be revelations about post Dday contacts. Those may be very hard to forgive.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> *Giving up and divorcing is certainly one approach. *If they go through mediation, and Mrs. Grid gives up alimony, grid may come out okay financially.
> 
> This is what irritates me. No one has told Grid to give up. Focusing on yourself and working on your own pos tendencies is not giving up. I actually think it is the best way to save his marriage.
> 
> He has said she will not have any trouble finding someone else. If that is true, and the new man has some money, she may be financially okay, too.
> 
> But grid still loves her. Their daughters would still like to see them together. They could avoid the expense of divorce and setting up two households. And considering they have had a dozen not entirely bad years together, there are memories to build on. There are valid reasons to encourage them towards reconciliation.
> 
> I would really like to see Mrs. Grid come clean to grid. I am just not sure she will do that without some sense of safety. I keep pushing him to make it safe for her to come to him.
> 
> I would hope that there is enough love in his heart to forgive her. I would hope that they could each own their own hand in their marital issues, and move forward with healthier habits.
> 
> But I can understand that if his love for her is not solid, then he has to know the full story first to decide if he can forgive. We all want the freedom to make free will choices.


----------



## Another Planet

ButtPunch said:


> I hear you JLD I really do, but Mrs. Grid is in the fog. Her love bank is closed. It won't be taking any deposits from Grid until the fog is lifted.


Yep that's the thing you can't even let that energy in if the receptors are already full. Grids loving emotions towards her is like water off a ducks back.
She is a cake eater through and through.


----------



## LongWalk

They may never make it to Retrouvaille. Who is going to babysit the girls that weekend. If Mrs Grid took it upon herself to make arrangements, that would be sign that she is somewhat engaged. If she is leaving it up to Grid, that is just more evidence of her cake eater style.


----------



## bfree

Jld, if that is what you're hearing then you aren't really listening. What everyone is saying is that grid should respect her wish for space. He should work on himself so that when his wife does turn her gaze back to him she will see a new and improved grid. Then they can both decide together whether they want to work on saving the marriage or not.


----------



## jld

bfree said:


> Jld, if that is what you're hearing then you aren't really listening. What everyone is saying is that grid should respect her wish for space. He should work on himself so that when his wife does turn her gaze back to him she will see a new and improved grid. Then they can both decide together whether they want to work on saving the marriage or not.


Well, I am encouraging him to do more than just wait, bfree. I am asking him to exercise leadership. I want to see him reach out to her.

Again, we are operating on different beliefs as to what could benefit their marriage. And grid seems to like hearing a variety of views, so it's all good.


----------



## Evinrude58

I wrote my cheating ex a heartfelt letter taking all the blame for her cheating, explaining how much I realized all my bad behavior through the years must have made her feel, how much I regretted it, how I understood how she felt. Just like the "hardened wife" thing said. 

Months later, she threw it in my face and acted like that letter was her bible for divorcing me. I urge you to stop doing any self-deprecating things that jld tells you to do. You are giving up your dignity. We all have isolated incidents of bad behavior. I was always faithful, a good provider, loved her, never got physical even when she went into a rage induced by diet pills and hit me numerous times, and never wasted money, did drugs or drank. That is never considered. Your wife never considers those things either because her mind won't let her because it makes her feel lower than low. Retrouvilke is likely not going to solve anything because her mind is made up........ I hope that I'm wrong.

My suggestion: start working toward getting your financial problems worked out, consider ch. 13, start detaching from your wife, stop blaming yourself for this, start envisioning your life without your wife. 
Once you accept what has happened, you may be able to function in your wife's presence in a way that draws her closer, but it is unlikely. She is telling you by asking for "space" that she wants you to stop giving a **^* about her and going your way. She is not asking for a little time to get her head right. She's not capable of such lucidity now. 
Try to realize that she lied to you daily for a year while seeing the OM. Do you think she developed a conscience suddenly after a year? She did not have sex with him once only. You'd have to be an idiot to believe that. She told you about the affair for a reason. If the reason was remorse, it would make all the difference. She told you, and a couple of months later filed for divorce. You are kidding yourself yet again if you think it was out of fear from a threat made by you. She filed for a reason. She's told you why/- she doesn't love you. Don't give her the satisfaction of acting like a kid in high school that the prom queen turns down for a date and gets laughed at by her. You may not have her love, but by golly you can earn her respect. Detach and move on in your mind. You've done all you can. 
Is she making any arrangements to ensure the retrouvillle thing takes place? That is a good question. I'll bet the answer is no. 
I know you love her, grid. But does that matter now? You can't get love in return from her. She doesn't have it to give. She gave it all away to some kid at work. Think about that, and about how much value she has placed on you. Then think about how much she deserves your love. 
This is the kind of person she is--- is that who you love? Your call as always.


----------



## jld

LW, I really have no idea about "strategy" in affairs. I just try to focus on what the BH can do to strengthen his appeal to his WW. To me, that is really the most effective thing he can do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

Evinrude58 said:


> I wrote my cheating ex a heartfelt letter taking all the blame for her cheating, explaining how much I realized all my bad behavior through the years must have made her feel, how much I regretted it, how I understood how she felt. Just like the "hardened wife" thing said.
> 
> Months later, she threw it in my face and acted like that letter was her bible for divorcing me. I urge you to stop doing any self-deprecating things that jld tells you to do. You are giving up your dignity. We all have isolated incidents of bad behavior. I was always faithful, a good provider, loved her, never got physical even when she went into a rage induced by diet pills and hit me numerous times, and never wasted money, did drugs or drank. That is never considered. Your wife never considers those things either because her mind won't let her because it makes her feel lower than low. Retrouvilke is likely not going to solve anything because her mind is made up........ I hope that I'm wrong.
> 
> My suggestion: start working toward getting your financial problems worked out, consider ch. 13, start detaching from your wife, stop blaming yourself for this, start envisioning your life without your wife.
> Once you accept what has happened, you may be able to function in your wife's presence in a way that draws her closer, but it is unlikely. She is telling you by asking for "space" that she wants you to stop giving a **^* about her and going your way. She is not asking for a little time to get her head right. She's not capable of such lucidity now.
> Try to realize that she lied to you daily for a year while seeing the OM. Do you think she developed a conscience suddenly after a year? She did not have sex with him once only. You'd have to be an idiot to believe that. She told you about the affair for a reason. If the reason was remorse, it would make all the difference. She told you, and a couple of months later filed for divorce. You are kidding yourself yet again if you think it was out of fear from a threat made by you. She filed for a reason. She's told you why/- she doesn't love you. Don't give her the satisfaction of acting like a kid in high school that the prom queen turns down for a date and gets laughed at by her. You may not have her love, but by golly you can earn her respect. Detach and move on in your mind. You've done all you can.
> Is she making any arrangements to ensure the retrouvillle thing takes place? That is a good question. I'll bet the answer is no.
> I know you love her, grid. But does that matter now? You can't get love in return from her. She doesn't have it to give. She gave it all away to some kid at work. Think about that, and about how much value she has placed on you. Then think about how much she deserves your love.
> This is the kind of person she is--- is that who you love? Your call as always.


Wish I knew you when you were drafting that letter


----------



## jld

I am sorry to hear things did not work out with your wife, evinrude. 

You know that her affair was not your fault, though, right? That Hardened Wife link is clear about that.

Not every marriage is meant to work out. I hope your next relationship will be much happier.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Evinrude58

I wrote it when she was STILL doing the online thing sexting other men, which I didn't know about at the time and she was telling me it was all my fault. I kept telling her that I felt there was something she was to telling me--- every day for two weeks until I found out about her cheating on my own. She never apologized, kept doing it. I asked her to leave 4 days after finding out. She told me she would stop. 4days later she was recording voice messages to 4 guys telling them in a sexy voice I had never heard from her that "the sh**had hit the fan" that was why she had been away for a while. 

I hope grid realizes what a person is capable of based on known past behavior. He knows she cheated for a year. What else does he need to know to see the real her? I know exactly what he WANTS to think. Jld's advice is predicated on this woman being a good person at heart. That may or may not be true. It's doubtful in my mind. 

Jld, thanks for the message. I'm able to se things more clearly, and am most definitely seeing grid's situation similar to my own. Grid is a good guy at heart. He loves his wife and hates himself for the.way he's been. But he doesn't realize that his mind is tricking him based on emotional shock and fuel from his wife who needs him to be all at fault to save herself from feeling guilt. You are pitting him against himself and allowing his wife to use him to unload her guilt. It's not his fault she cheated. And although you disagree, her cheating IS the thing that has to be dealt with BEFORE he and she can fix the rest. Chop down the tree before you dig up the roots, or the tree may just fall on you. 

Jld, we disagree on what grid should do as far as trying to show his wife his good side. You are asking him to prostrate himself before her. I say that is a disaster for both grid and his marriage. He needs to move in in his mind before he can even decide if his marriage is worth saving. You asking his wife to pursue alimony is really awful, I think. He shouldn't have to pay her to abandon her family, particularly after being unfaithful.


----------



## Chuck71

Evinrude58 said:


> I wrote it when she was STILL doing the online thing sexting other men, which I didn't know about at the time and she was telling me it was all my fault. I kept telling her that I felt there was something she was to telling me--- every day for two weeks until I found out about her cheating on my own. She never apologized, kept doing it. I asked her to leave 4 days after finding out. She told me she would stop. 4days later she was recording voice messages to 4 guys telling them in a sexy voice I had never heard from her that "the sh**had hit the fan" that was why she had been away for a while.
> 
> I hope grid realizes what a person is capable of based on known past behavior. He knows she cheated for a year. What else does he need to know to see the real her? I know exactly what he WANTS to think. Jld's advice is predicated on this woman being a good person at heart. That may or may not be true. It's doubtful in my mind.
> 
> Jld, thanks for the message. I'm able to se things more clearly, and am most definitely seeing grid's situation similar to my own. Grid is a good guy at heart. He loves his wife and hates himself for the.way he's been. But he doesn't realize that his mind is tricking him based on emotional shock and fuel from his wife who needs him to be all at fault to save herself from feeling guilt. You are pitting him against himself and allowing his wife to use him to unload her guilt. It's not his fault she cheated. And although you disagree, her cheating IS the thing that has to be dealt with BEFORE he and she can fix the rest. Chop down the tree before you dig up the roots, or the tree may just fall on you.
> 
> Jld, we disagree on what grid should do as far as trying to show his wife his good side. You are asking him to prostrate himself before her. I say that is a disaster for both grid and his marriage. He needs to move in in his mind before he can even decide if his marriage is worth saving. You asking his wife to pursue alimony is really awful, I think. He shouldn't have to pay her to abandon her family, particularly after being unfaithful.


Ever heard the phrase "damaged people..... damage people?"


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> Well, I am encouraging him to do more than just wait, bfree. I am asking him to exercise leadership. I want to see him reach out to her.
> 
> Again, we are operating on different beliefs as to what could benefit their marriage. And grid seems to like hearing a variety of views, so it's all good.


But your encouragement for leadership flies in the face of her request for space. Reaching out to her is not what she's asking for and not what she says she needs from him. And it's not what she says has been his problem. By his own words he states quite clearly that each and every time he's reached out she has to him to get lost and leave her alone.


----------



## jld

Evinrude58 said:


> I wrote it when she was STILL doing the online thing sexting other men, which I didn't know about at the time and she was telling me it was all my fault. I kept telling her that I felt there was something she was to telling me--- every day for two weeks until I found out about her cheating on my own. She never apologized, kept doing it. I asked her to leave 4 days after finding out. She told me she would stop. 4days later she was recording voice messages to 4 guys telling them in a sexy voice I had never heard from her that "the sh**had hit the fan" that was why she had been away for a while.
> 
> I hope grid realizes what a person is capable of based on known past behavior. He knows she cheated for a year. What else does he need to know to see the real her? I know exactly what he WANTS to think. Jld's advice is predicated on this woman being a good person at heart. That may or may not be true. It's doubtful in my mind.
> 
> Jld, thanks for the message. I'm able to se things more clearly, and am most definitely seeing grid's situation similar to my own. Grid is a good guy at heart. He loves his wife and hates himself for the.way he's been. But he doesn't realize that his mind is tricking him based on emotional shock and fuel from his wife who needs him to be all at fault to save herself from feeling guilt. You are pitting him against himself and allowing his wife to use him to unload her guilt. It's not his fault she cheated. And although you disagree, her cheating IS the thing that has to be dealt with BEFORE he and she can fix the rest. Chop down the tree before you dig up the roots, or the tree may just fall on you.
> 
> Jld, we disagree on what grid should do as far as trying to show his wife his good side. You are asking him to prostrate himself before her. I say that is a disaster for both grid and his marriage. He needs to move in in his mind before he can even decide if his marriage is worth saving. You asking his wife to pursue alimony is really awful, I think. He shouldn't have to pay her to abandon her family, particularly after being unfaithful.


I do tend to be trusting, evinrude. I think people are usually good at heart. Even when folks disagree, I would guess each has their own, to them at least, good motives.

I guess that is why I am optimistic that most marriages can be saved, with enough empathy and humility from both partners.

But the reality is that some marriages are not meant to continue. Sometimes love dies. And we are fortunate to live in a time where people can move on when that happens.

I covered alimony in a separate post. I think it is a separate issue from the affair.

I definitely think the affair, in its entirety, needs to be discussed. I would like to see her be completely transparent about it. I am sure I could not heal without knowing everything, or telling everything. What a terrible burden, to carry such a secret.

We do disagree on what I am asking grid to do. I am asking him to set aside all snarky remarks, to reach out to her patiently and kindly, and to seek to understand what she did without judgment. Basically, I am asking him to be strong for both of them, until she can recover her strength and truly and sincerely ask his forgiveness.

But it is indeed a tall order. And there is certainly the possibility that once he knows everything, the marriage may have to end.


----------



## jld

LongWalk said:


> Jld,
> 
> If the Grids divorce and Mrs Grid's relationship with OM fails, whom will she blame?


Herself. She knows this affair is wrong, LW. She knows her husband contributed to her frustration. But she knows she made the decision, ultimately, by herself.

And LW, she might ultimately decide that it was just over between her and grid. We haven't heard from her, you know?


----------



## Chuck71

Evinrude58 said:


> I wrote it when she was STILL doing the online thing sexting other men, which I didn't know about at the time and she was telling me it was all my fault. I kept telling her that I felt there was something she was to telling me--- every day for two weeks until I found out about her cheating on my own. She never apologized, kept doing it. I asked her to leave 4 days after finding out. She told me she would stop. 4days later she was recording voice messages to 4 guys telling them in a sexy voice I had never heard from her that "the sh**had hit the fan" that was why she had been away for a while.
> 
> I hope grid realizes what a person is capable of based on known past behavior. He knows she cheated for a year. What else does he need to know to see the real her? I know exactly what he WANTS to think. Jld's advice is predicated on this woman being a good person at heart. That may or may not be true. It's doubtful in my mind.
> 
> Jld, thanks for the message. I'm able to se things more clearly, and am most definitely seeing grid's situation similar to my own. Grid is a good guy at heart. He loves his wife and hates himself for the.way he's been. But he doesn't realize that his mind is tricking him based on emotional shock and fuel from his wife who needs him to be all at fault to save herself from feeling guilt. You are pitting him against himself and allowing his wife to use him to unload her guilt. It's not his fault she cheated. And although you disagree, her cheating IS the thing that has to be dealt with BEFORE he and she can fix the rest. Chop down the tree before you dig up the roots, or the tree may just fall on you.
> 
> Jld, we disagree on what grid should do as far as trying to show his wife his good side. You are asking him to prostrate himself before her. I say that is a disaster for both grid and his marriage. He needs to move in in his mind before he can even decide if his marriage is worth saving. You asking his wife to pursue alimony is really awful, I think. He shouldn't have to pay her to abandon her family, particularly after being unfaithful.


When you hear a reply with "I" beginning each sentence, always read twice.


----------



## Another Planet

jld said:


> Still seeing the other man at work does seem to be a big issue for people. I think it would be easier without him in her life, but I don't want to think all is lost because she still sees him occasionally. Where is the courage in that?
> 
> I'm an optimist. I think if grid makes positive changes in his treatment of her, and stops the negative behavior, her heart can start softening towards him. This OM is not a realistic option for her moving forward. At some point she has to see that. Grid, if he has been putting deposits in her emotional bank account, and decreasing withdrawals, will then surely look more appealing.
> 
> I don't want to give up. I want to see them succeed. And I don't understand all the passivity that people seem to be encouraging in grid.
> 
> The message I hear other posters sending is this: "Just wait for your wife to come to you and heal the marriage, grid. Just wait for her to make it all better by taking responsibility for the affair. That affair is the real problem here. Whatever led up to it is not really a big deal. You had no control over any of it. She should have coped in some way without turning to another man. She is a villain. You are a victim. Just do your own thing. Don't mind her. And in the meantime, if you decide to divorce, that's just fine. No matter the kids, do whatever you think is best for you. The kids will cope somehow."
> 
> I think that is so weak. I could not respect a man who sat back passively waiting for his wife to "make it all better," instead of reaching out to her and improving himself. I would not be attracted to that kind of man at all. And cultivating that attitude in a man is exactly what seems to me to be encouraged by the 25 other posters here!
> 
> I do agree that Retrouvaille could be a turning point. I certainly hope so.


I envy you in a way, to have the naivety and ignorance which I seriously say with the utmost respect. You apparently have not been forced to learn the hard way as many of us here unfortunately have. 
I remember being that way before my heart was ruined, the feeling of blind hope that everything was perfect and being so happy and thinking it could never happen to me. 
And I truly hope you get to stay that way.


----------



## jld

bfree said:


> But your encouragement for leadership flies in the face of her request for space. Reaching out to her is not what she's asking for and not what she says she needs from him. And it's not what she says has been his problem. By his own words he states quite clearly that each and every time he's reached out she has to him to get lost and leave her alone.


She does not want him to be overbearing, bfree. She wants him to be nice. Remember the How to deal with a controlling husband websites she was googling?

I would be surprised if she were to reject him if he were consistently kind, respectful, caring, and easy to talk to. I think that could soften her heart. It might take time, but I would hope so. 

And even if they divorced, it would make co-parenting easier.


----------



## jld

Another Planet said:


> I envy you in a way, to have the naivety and ignorance which I seriously say with the utmost respect. You apparently have not been forced to learn the hard way as many of us here unfortunately have.
> I remember being that way before my heart was ruined, the feeling of blind hope that everything was perfect and being so happy and thinking it could never happen to me.
> And I truly hope you get to stay that way.


Thanks, AnPl. I really am lucky to be married to Dug. He is the inspiration for much of the advice I give to men.

And I am sorry for your heartache. I hope your next relationship brings you much more joy and fulfillment.


----------



## Chuck71

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KX2E8_yDXPY


----------



## Duguesclin

My wife is misunderstood. I keep reading she is advising Grid to prostrate himself in front of his wife. This is not true.

Grid's wife is depressed and lost. She needs a hand to reach out to her. And the best one to do this is Grid. He has a vested interest in making this marriage work and he has the strength to do it. 

At this stage blaming her is not going to get him anywhere positive. She needs someone to listen and care for her. Once she has healed she will blame herself. She is going to be much harder on herself than he will ever be. Look at her rejecting the alimony. That is totally irrational.

What Grid's needs to do is stop emoting and start paying attention to his wife. Maybe even better, give up a few Mets games and spend time with her. That will make her feel like she is a priority to him.


----------



## Chuck71

duguesclin said:


> my wife is misunderstood. I keep reading she is advising grid to prostrate himself in front of his wife. This is not true.
> 
> Grid's wife is depressed and lost. She needs a hand to reach out to her. And the best one to do this is grid. He has a vested interest in making this marriage work and he has the strength to do it.
> 
> At this stage blaming her is not going to get him anywhere positive. She needs someone to listen and care for her. Once she has healed she will blame herself. She is going to be much harder on herself than he will ever be. Look at her rejecting the alimony. That is totally irrational.
> 
> What grid's needs to do is stop emoting and start paying attention to his wife. Maybe even better, give up a few mets games and spend time with her. That will make her feel like she is a priority to him.


go cubs!


----------



## Evinrude58

That's the whole problem.....

She won't LET the man spend time with her. He is supposed to be admitting guilt on being emotionally abusive, listening to her (all she says is f- off basically"), and this and that, according to jld. She is not being misunderstood. She is saying he should admit all his mistakes and be nice and it will soften her heart. I'm saying that she won't talk to him and give him the chance to listen, and won't let him be nice to her because she thinks he's trying to get her back(which of course, he is). She doesn't want him back. She wants his money and the OM's love. I think that is wrong. I'll bet my next paycheck that if they divorce, mrs grid will SEEK alimony. It's not a separate issue; if she wants out, she should not get to take his money with her. Let her OM support her, or better yet, let her support herself. I'll bet she will have happier memories of her life with grid once she starts paying all the bills for herself.


----------



## Chuck71

Evinrude58 said:


> That's the whole problem.....
> 
> She won't LET the man spend time with her. He is supposed to be admitting guilt on being emotionally abusive, listening to her (all she says is f- off basically"), and this and that, according to jld. She is not being misunderstood. She is saying he should admit all his mistakes and be nice and it will soften her heart. I'm saying that she won't talk to him and give him the chance to listen, and won't let him be nice to her because she thinks he's trying to get her back(which of course, he is). She doesn't want him back. She wants his money and the OM's love. I think that is wrong. I'll bet my next paycheck that if they divorce, mrs grid will SEEK alimony. It's not a separate issue; if she wants out, she should not get to take his money with her. Let her OM support her, or better yet, let her support herself. I'll bet she will have happier memories of her life with grid once she starts paying all the bills for herself.


Let her OWN it. You're a great guy, a worthy woman will see this


----------



## Duguesclin

Evinrude58 said:


> That's the whole problem.....
> 
> She won't LET the man spend time with her.
> 
> Of course she won't. She does not trust him and is scared of him. It does not mean he should not listen. If his heart has changed she will see it and soften.
> 
> He is supposed to be admitting guilt on being emotionally abusive, listening to her (all she says is f- off basically"), and this and that, according to jld. She is not being misunderstood.
> 
> This is not prostrating in front of his wife. This is engaging in conflict resolution.
> 
> She is saying he should admit all his mistakes and be nice and it will soften her heart. I'm saying that she won't talk to him and give him the chance to listen, and won't let him be nice to her because she thinks he's trying to get her back(which of course, he is). She doesn't want him back.
> 
> Of course she does not want him back. He has been a jerk. But she will accept the new Grid if he genuinely fixes his issues.
> 
> She wants his money and the OM's love. I think that is wrong. I'll bet my next paycheck that if they divorce, mrs grid will SEEK alimony. It's not a separate issue; if she wants out, she should not get to take his money with her. Let her OM support her, or better yet, let her support herself. I'll bet she will have happier memories of her life with grid once she starts paying all the bills for herself.
> 
> If they go ahead with the divorce proceeding, she should ask for alimony. She would be stupid not to.


----------



## Anon Pink

Hi grid, your thread moves too quickly for me so forgive me if this particular issue has been beaten to death and put away.




gridcom said:


> Yeah I think this falls under the basic common sense/boundaries coming from an affair. All people involved in the affair and anyone who was OK with it or encouraged it are NOT WELCOME in the BS's house.


While I completely understand with this mindset I wanted to caution you about forcing boundaries ONTO your wife and who she can be friends with.

I have a friend who was married to an abusive man. We tried, all of her friends tried to get her to leave him. She finally got the courage and began planning to leave. But then he got sick and needed several surgeries that took a few years for him to fully regain his health. By now she was frazzled and deadened inside. Again, we urged her to leave. His sickness was one that could flare up again and as his pain increased his controlling nature increased. He couldn't control his health so he decided to control her life instead. Things got worse, temper tantrums that were in private now happened in front of the kids. She got the courage to leave again...after she had an affair. It wasn't even an emotional affair, it was just sex, just being with a man who wanted to please her instead of control her and blame her. We were very happy she got her spark back as a result of the affair and I even covered for her one time. 

And nope I don't feel slightest bit guilty!

So your wife's friend may be like me and others who cheered on our friend as she had an affair that gave her the courage to leave a husband she should have left LONG ago. They may be operating under the impression that you are 10 times worse than what you've admitted to here in your thread. And if that's the case, the worst thing you could do would be to alienate them.

What you should do is open yourself to them. Talk to them. Let them see the new you, the guy who acknowledges his mistakes and takes responsibility for them. Let them see the guy committed to honesty and accountability. Let them see the guy you wife didn't share with them. 

They only know what your wife has said about you and right or wrong they thought they were acting in her best interest. But if you welcomed them and welcomed their assessment of who you are and the kind of husband you aspire to be, instead of alienating your wife you will have gained an ally.

Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Can I ask again, for complete clarity, has your IC said you were emotionally abusive?


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Duguesclin said:


> Grid's wife is depressed and lost.


How did you arrive at this diagnosis?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

ThreeStrikes said:


> How did you arrive at this diagnosis?


Once upon a time, a person with great insight basically said quit bickering and worry about grid. His.....name...iirc....was.....hmmmm....ThreeStrikes. 

Listen to yourself. Trust me, don't go down this road with him.


----------



## just got it 55

jld said:


> Thanks, AnPl. I really am lucky to be married to Dug. He is the inspiration for much of the advice I give to men.
> 
> And I am sorry for your heartache. I hope your next relationship brings you much more joy and fulfillment.


JLD.... LOOK IT'S EASY FOR DUG TO BE THE WAY HE IS BECAUSE HE IS WITH YOU

You are without a doubt a kind honest sweet and most of all faithful woman.

Regardless of how I view your post,I genuinely admire your inner peace and compassion.

Once more I will say your advice is dead on if and only if Mrs Grid owns her POS tendencies and come completely clean with the truth.

55


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Let's not confuse our emotions with facts.

Many of us want Mrs. Grid (and Grid) to be a certain way because it justifies our advice and/or agenda. Some need her to be depressed. Some need her to be an entitled ****. Some need her to be a victim. Some need her to be...fill in the blank.

There is no indication in Grid's postings that Mrs. Grid is depressed.


----------



## jld

just got it 55 said:


> JLD.... LOOK IT'S EASY FOR DUG TO BE THE WAY HE IS BECAUSE HE IS WITH YOU
> 
> You are without a doubt a kind honest sweet and most of all faithful woman.
> 
> Regardless of how I view your post,I genuinely admire your inner peace and compassion.
> 
> Once more I will say your advice is dead on if and only if Mrs Grid owns her POS tendencies and come completely clean with the truth.
> 
> 55


That was very nice of you, 55. Thank you. 

Dug is incredibly kind. The patience and compassion he shows me is what I wish for every wife.


----------



## ButtPunch

I want to learn how to fly an airplane.

25 people say go to flight school.

1 says jump off a cliff.

I can't take it anymore. Grid I'm out and I mean it this time. Best of luck to you. 

Remember women are attracted to men who have dignity and honor. Men who are strong and with conviction. Competing for WW is beneath you so stop playing. Any attempt to manipulate your wife or convince her will push her away even further. 

Step 1 the 180

I'll be keeping up with this oncoming train wreck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

gridcom said:


> I think to say she is clever and cunning and knows exactly what she is doing is totally false. *My mother today said she was "dead wood" meaning she is just dragging herself around completely physically drained. It's not an act. It's rather sad to see it.*
> 
> On the other hand, to say that I am week is also not accurate. I have shown through the years to be tough and can make tough choices in hard times. This is my history. To sum me up as a "weakling" would be completely inaccurate.
> 
> Yes, all of our families, my oldest daughter, and most of her co-workers know about the affair


I think this is where Dug got the idea she is depressed.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Oh and regardless of the agenda, the OM needs to be removed from the equation PERIOD. Just like in the real world, if the atmosphere doesn't change the fog never lifts. Hey, I hope retro works for you, even if.....

Yeah, I'll check back sometime in November.

Good luck, seriously, in whatever choice you make.


----------



## jld

ThreeStrikes said:


> Ever observe a heartsick teenage girl who just got dumped by her boyfriend?
> 
> Lethargic, "dead wood" would be an appropriate description.
> 
> Mrs. Grid is likely moping, because she misses her boyfriend.
> 
> At least, that's what my magic 8-ball says.


Sounds like depression.


_According to the National Institute of Mental Health, symptoms of depression may include the following:

Difficulty concentrating, remembering details, and making decisions
Fatigue and decreased energy
Feelings of guilt, worthlessness, and/or helplessness
Feelings of hopelessness and/or pessimism_


----------



## ThreeStrikes

jld said:


> Sounds like depression.
> 
> 
> _According to the National Institute of Mental Health, symptoms of depression may include the following:
> 
> Difficulty concentrating, remembering details, and making decisions
> Fatigue and decreased energy
> Feelings of guilt, worthlessness, and/or helplessness
> Feelings of hopelessness and/or pessimism_


I'm sure you are correct.


----------



## bfree

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Oh and regardless of the agenda, the OM needs to be removed from the equation PERIOD. Just like in the real world, if the atmosphere doesn't change the fog never lifts. Hey, I hope retro works for you, even if.....
> 
> Yeah, I'll check back sometime in November.
> 
> Good luck, seriously, in whatever choice you make.


Yup, me too. I'll wait for grid to post an update after Retrouville.


----------



## jld

Grid, I was reading over at MarriageBuilders today and found something that sounds a lot like what Dug and I told you. We are more familiar with the ultimatehusband.com site, but MB has some good material, too. Just wanted to share this:

What to Do with an Unfaithful Wife Letter #1

_If possible, have a non-threatening discussion with her about what her friend does for her that you don't. Ask her to complete my Emotional Needs Questionnaire so that you can see which of her most important emotional needs you are meeting, and which of them you are not meeting. It's a pretty safe guess that her lover is meeting the ones you are missing.

When you have this discussion, there is the Taker in you (see the Giver & Taker in my Basic Concepts) that will tell you to express your resentment over how much she has hurt you. Your Taker may even encourage you to let her lover have this ungrateful woman, so that you can find someone who will love you the way you are. You will be tempted to lose your temper, to say disrespectful things, try to straighten her out, and give her ultimatums.

If you do any of these things, she will find you repulsive, and withdraw from you more than she already has. It will get you nowhere.

On the other hand, if you can convince her that her feelings are important to you, and you are dedicated to make decisions that are in her best interest, it will add greatly to your credibility. Right now, she is not convinced that you have put her first in your life. Convince her otherwise._


----------



## TeddieG

ThreeStrikes said:


> Let's not confuse our emotions with facts.
> 
> Many of us want Mrs. Grid (and Grid) to be a certain way because it justifies our advice and/or agenda. Some need her to be depressed. Some need her to be an entitled ****. Some need her to be a victim. Some need her to be...fill in the blank.
> 
> There is no indication in Grid's postings that Mrs. Grid is depressed.


If she's anything like my husband, she's far from depressed. My h is depressed when he's NOT with OW. When he's with her, he's creamin' in his jeans.


----------



## Thundarr

jld said:


> Divorce is expensive. Maintaining two separate households is expensive. Figuring out custody and covering child care is a pain. If all that can be avoided, why not try?
> 
> 
> gridcom said:
> 
> 
> 
> Like my IC said today, rather flatly....
> 
> "You two can't afford to divorce"
> 
> 
> jld said:
> 
> 
> 
> She is right, grid. She is right.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Reconciliation based on necessity rather than the sincerity is a recipe for disaster. To answer jld's question of 'why not try', I believe you answered it Grid. Knowing that she can't afford to divorce you but her thinking that she wants to divorce you will make your wife feel *trapped* Grid. That's the worst case scenario if you're hoping for a true reconciliation.


----------



## Thundarr

gridcom said:


> No IC and MC are different people. Honestly, a lot of what my IC told me today mirrored a lot of what I am hearing here in terms of people sizing up my wife. She was astounded mainly by my wife's lack of action and very astounded, mainly, that she even filed for divorce at all. That is what led to the comment about my wife not thinking about the kids enough. She thinks my wife and I shouldn't be pursuing reconciliation with a divorce looming over our heads. She didn't say my wife should pull the divorce but said you can't emotionally or objectively have one foot in R and one foot in D and get anywhere positive in R.
> 
> She suggested we pause the D, not discuss it, and work on R until Retrouvaille, then have a re-examination of the whole situation at that time
> 
> She also mirrored what my lawyer and my family lawyer said about Mediation, where you shouldnt have a divorce in process and simulataneously going towards mediation


You're IC is questioning the sincerity of you're wife's wish to reconcile. Why do you think that is?


----------



## LongWalk

jld,

Here is another Dr Harley letter. Perhaps it is more illuminating.
He clearly does not advocate the 180, since he strategy and tactics involve trying to keep communications.

Grid is not doing either the Dr Harley methods (there are several) or the TAM way.

If Grid were to permit his wife to have sexual relations with OM so that he could compete with him in filling her so-called love bank, Dr Harley believes the betrayed spouse can win. However, he notes that a lot people are too weak to stand it for long.

If I were to choose between reading Chump Lady and Dr Harley, I would choose Chump Lady.

But both Dr Harley and TAM agree, for Grid's wife to continue the job is a big mistake.

I think I can summarize Dr Harley's philosophy:

Fifty percent of marriage fail. More than 50 percent experience infidelity. Thus, over half of marriages are an indigestible shıt sandwich. As long has you have the sandwich you know, it is better than the crap you don't know. And in any case it's crap shoot. So stick with cheater and let them eat more of what the OM/W is serving. Sooner or later they will discover it is a stinking pile and may be return to you.

I am sure Harley wins some, but the degradation is horrific.




> Letter #5
> _*Dear Dr. Harley,
> 
> My marriage lasted eleven years. My wife and I were involved in so many different things, some together, many apart. We were restoring a house together and having children at the same time that I was working full time and finishing my education. She was also working full time. By the time the second child was born, we had both grown neglectful of the romantic aspect of our relationship.
> 
> It was like we had both fallen asleep -- but she woke up first. Eight years into the marriage, she had an affair with a man who worked with her. Instead of telling me that she was attracted to someone she knew, she kept it from me and got involved with him. She eventually told me about it, we went to a counselor, but for three years we struggled. The counselor suggested that, because he was important to her career, if I insisted on her not seeing him, I would risk losing her. I reluctantly complied, but he continued to pursue her and eventually she got reinvolved with him and the marriage was over.
> 
> I regret now having spent those three years struggling with an unfaithful wife who could never close the door on her infidelity. I feel demeaned by it, and I feel that I did myself harm by doing everything I could to put the genie back in the bottle when it was already too late.
> 
> Is there anything I could have done that would have saved my marriage? And now, how can I ever trust another woman? I have become deathly afraid that I will fail again, and that whoever I would marry will eventually tire of me, and that I will not be able to meet her needs. After three years of tilting at windmills with my wife, I almost EXPECT to be betrayed. What do I do? I cannot seem to help the way that I feel.
> 
> B.R.*_





> Dear B.R.,
> 
> Your fear comes from an incomplete understanding of why your wife had an affair and how you could have overcome it to restore your love for each other (and save your marriage). I'll give you a few basic concepts that will guard you against affairs in future relationships.
> 
> We marry because we are in love, and we fall in love with those who meet our most important emotional needs. When the one we marry stops meeting those needs, we become vulnerable to others who are willing and able to meet them. If we let someone else meet our needs, we fall in love with that person, and an affair is off and running. P To "affair-proof" a marriage (the goal of my book, His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-proof Marriage), spouses must identify and meet each other's most important needs to prevent emotional attachments to others. They must also be honest with each other about needs they feel are not being met, and they must let each other know when they are attracted to someone else. If a spouse's needs are not met in marriage, and he or she is not honest about their feelings toward someone who meets those needs, an affair is likely to take place.
> 
> *Once an affair begins, it is like an addiction*. The same emotional attachment that drew you and your spouse into marriage is now directed to someone else. When your spouse is having an affair, she is as attached to her lover as she was when she first married to you.* If she tries to leave her lover, she will experience many of the same withdrawal symptoms that people have when they try to stop using addicting drugs -- intense feelings of anxiety and depression*.
> 
> Most people who have affairs are so depressed they feel like committing suicide. They cannot imagine leaving their lovers, nor can they imagine leaving their families. They see no hope. They know they are causing their spouse and children unbearable pain, yet they cannot stop the affair. They try to rationalize by thinking that their spouse and children will do just fine, but deep down they know that their pleasure is destroying the lives of the ones they love, so suicide is considered as a way out of the mess they're in.
> 
> *The simplest and most direct solution to affairs is to force an end to all contact with the lover for life,* and for the spouse to meet the emotional needs that the lover met. Some of my clients have done just that, and spared themselves untold agony. Many leave the state as the only sure way to avoid contact. That plan would also work for alcohol and drug addiction if there were drug and alcohol free states, but there are none. The availability of addicting substances is everywhere, which makes the temptation too great for most addicts to overcome.
> 
> *But what do you do when your spouse won't leave her lover?* What if she won't move to another state? I have recommended two approaches to this problem.
> 
> The first approach that I often recommend is to compete with the lover. Even as she is seeing the man, try to meet her needs, financially and emotionally. That approach has the advantage of proving that you care more about your wife than her lover does. Since you have more to lose than the lover (your family unit and present way of life), you can usually outlast the lover. He eventually finds someone else with less baggage.
> 
> *The problem with this approach is that it is emotionally draining.* You are giving her all you can, and getting very little in return. Besides, most people are totally overwhelmed by the image of their spouses in bed with someone else, and feel more like killing their spouses than meeting their needs. Some can't follow this plan at all and most people can't do it indefinitely.
> 
> As a compromise, I usually recommend a time limit for this approach, say six months. Then, if no progress is seen during that period of time, switch to my second approach. This plan is described in chapter 13 of His Needs, Her Needs ("How to Survive an Affair"), and takes the position that marriage is a contract that assumes mutual need fulfillment. When one spouse has an affair, the contract is broken. I recommend that you not only stop meeting your unfaithful spouse's needs, but you should avoid contact with her entirely until she is willing to abandon her lover. When that happens, you return to my first approach, to pull out all the stops and show her that you are willing and able to meet the needs met by her lover.
> 
> When you begin with the first approach to the problem, and then switch to the second, *it has the advantage of your wife remembering you as a thoughtful, caring person right up to the day that you pulled the plug*. It is very important for her to know that you really care about her, but you simply can't take the pain of knowing she's with another man.
> 
> When you first learned about your wife's affair, you were probably very uncaring and disrespectful. You may have criticized her, made disrespectful judgments, and lost your temper. If you leave her after those ugly scenes, all she will remember is what a jerk you are, and she won't be very tempted to come back to you. So you must leave her with proof that you care for her, and that you also respect her judgments and opinions, however painful they are to you at this time.
> 
> That's what the first approach to your wife's infidelity achieves for you. It gives her an opportunity to remember you as a kind and generous person right up to the day you leave. But from that day on, you meet only those needs that the law demands (financial), and you should have no contact with her until she ends her affair. When she returns to you it should be with the understanding that you may move as a family to avoid the temptation to return to her lover.
> 
> My second approach is risky, because leaving her can throw her into her lover's arms, but the alternative is for her to vacillate between the two of you for years to come.
> 
> *The advice you were given, for her to continue to work with her lover, almost always leads to disaster.* My experience with thousands of couples that have had affairs leads me to the conclusion that the lover should never be seen again. The temptation to return to the affair is simply too great for most people to resist.
> 
> What about future relationships? How can you ever trust anyone again? Before you marry anyone else, try to follow my Policy of Joint Agreement (never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse), meet each other's most important emotional needs, and follow my Policy of Radical Honesty. If you and your future spouse are comfortable living together under those conditions, you have nothing to fear in marriage. You will also be convinced that your first marriage would have been affair-free if you had done the same in that marriage.
> 
> No one will marry you unless you meet at least some of her emotional needs. But after you marry, if you don't meet her needs, she or anyone else you would marry, will be vulnerable to an affair.
> 
> I will leave you with another important point. I've already expressed my conviction that after an affair is over, there should be no contact between a spouse and his or her lover. But there is a related issue that is often ignored. When you marry, neither you nor your spouse should have any contact with any of your previous lovers. Anyone that you've ever loved is a temptation for you, and has the potential of re-igniting your feelings of love.


----------



## Chuck71

ButtPunch said:


> I want to learn how to fly an airplane.
> 
> 25 people say go to flight school.
> 
> 1 says jump off a cliff.
> 
> I can't take it anymore. Grid I'm out and I mean it this time. Best of luck to you.
> 
> Remember women are attracted to men who have dignity and honor. Men who are strong and with conviction. Competing for WW is beneath you so stop playing. Any attempt to manipulate your wife or convince her will push her away even further.
> 
> Step 1 the 180
> 
> I'll be keeping up with this oncoming train wreck.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


HEY HEY HEYYYYYYYYY

Only one way to learn to fly

Pink Floyd......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCB_INs2E24


----------



## LongWalk

Great post by BP.


----------



## jld

LongWalk said:


> jld,
> 
> Here is another Dr Harley letter. Perhaps it is more illuminating.
> He clearly does not advocate the 180, since he strategy and tactics involve trying to keep communications.
> 
> Grid is not doing either the Dr Harley methods (there are several) or the TAM way.
> 
> If Grid were to permit his wife to have sexual relations with OM so that he could compete with him in filling her so-called love bank, Dr Harley believes the betrayed spouse can win. However, he notes that a lot people are too weak to stand it for long.
> 
> If I were to choose between reading Chump Lady and Dr Harley, I would choose Chump Lady.
> 
> But both Dr Harley and TAM agree, for Grid's wife to continue the job is a big mistake.


I definitely agree that it looks a lot easier to reconcile if the AP is out of the way. But what I find encouraging in both letters is that it is _not impossible_ for reconciliation to begin, or at least to set the stage for it, even with the AP still in the picture. 

My desire for grid, LW, is that his wife would voluntarily choose to leave her job out of renewed love and respect and devotion to grid. Ideally this decision would be heartfelt, not coerced. And grid's following Dr. Harley's plan as outlined in the letters could get her there sooner rather than later.

It would take great emotional strength for grid to completely humble himself and seek to understand and then meet his wife's needs in the face of her continued lack of abject repentance. I believe following Dr. Harley's plan would bring success. And it certainly lines up with grid's and his wife's faith. The only real cost to grid is putting aside his pride and developing virtues like patience, diligence, perseverance, and trust.

I brought it up because I was reading over there and was excited to see that it is indeed not essential, though it would be preferable, to have the AP completely out of the picture in order to get the ball rolling for reconciliation. There is hope, even now when things may seem dark.


----------



## manfromlamancha

JLD, you really need to stay away from that MarriageBuilders site - it spouts pure bilge! And as for Harley, as someone said, Chump Lady vs Harley and Chump Lady wins by a long stretch.

I don't know why we all suddenly came back to abusive marriage etc - Grid confirmed just recently that he was NOT overly abusive, they had a normal marriage, there was no mention of any problems and then she SUDDENLY started consulting sites (about the time she started fvcking the younger lothario).

So I have a question for you JLD - lets assume that she WAS NOT depressed, WAS NOT abused, HAD BEEN working before (not a SAHM) and all the other things that Grid has now confirmed. And then she goes and has a year long affair with this POSOM simply because she finds him attractive, entertaining, attentive with no baggage, and she fancies a bit of strange. And she lies to Grid (as Grid suspects) and tells him it was just recently that she started fvcking him so as to ease the separation process. And that she is ready to separate since she doesn't even have financial stability anymore in the marriage.

IF you knew all this to be the absolute truth, what would your advice be ?


----------



## soccermom2three

Okay, the "groupthink" thing made me laugh.


----------



## Chuck71

manfromlamancha said:


> JLD, you really need to stay away from that MarriageBuilders site - it spouts pure bilge! And as for Harley, as someone said, Chump Lady vs Harley and Chump Lady wins by a long stretch.
> 
> I don't know why we all suddenly came back to abusive marriage etc - Grid confirmed just recently that he was NOT overly abusive, they had a normal marriage, there was no mention of any problems and then she SUDDENLY started consulting sites (about the time she started fvcking the younger lothario).
> 
> So I have a question for you JLD - lets assume that she WAS NOT depressed, WAS NOT abused, HAD BEEN working before (not a SAHM) and all the other things that Grid has now confirmed. And then she goes and has a year long affair with this POSOM simply because she finds him attractive, entertaining, attentive with no baggage, and she fancies a bit of strange. And she lies to Grid (as Grid suspects) and tells him it was just recently that she started fvcking him so as to ease the separation process. And that she is ready to separate since she doesn't even have financial stability anymore in the marriage.
> 
> IF you knew all this to be the absolute truth, what would your advice be ?


Somehow......

Somewhere......

Grid became a 1971 version of Clint Eastwood on a bad crystalmeth addiction

This came from where................ ?


----------



## jld

manfromlamancha said:


> JLD, you really need to stay away from that MarriageBuilders site - it spouts pure bilge! And as for Harley, as someone said, Chump Lady vs Harley and Chump Lady wins by a long stretch.
> 
> I don't know why we all suddenly came back to abusive marriage etc - Grid confirmed just recently that he was NOT overly abusive, they had a normal marriage, there was no mention of any problems and then she SUDDENLY started consulting sites (about the time she started fvcking the younger lothario).
> 
> So I have a question for you JLD - lets assume that she WAS NOT depressed, WAS NOT abused, HAD BEEN working before (not a SAHM) and all the other things that Grid has now confirmed. And then she goes and has a year long affair with this POSOM simply because she finds him attractive, entertaining, attentive with no baggage, and she fancies a bit of strange. And she lies to Grid (as Grid suspects) and tells him it was just recently that she started fvcking him so as to ease the separation process. And that she is ready to separate since she doesn't even have financial stability anymore in the marriage.
> 
> IF you knew all this to be the absolute truth, what would your advice be ?


Man, grid knows better than I what is going on with his wife. I will leave speculation on the above to him.

I started posting on this thread over three months ago to help grid find a way he could start putting his marriage back together and keep his family intact, even under difficult circumstances. While I really like the Hardened Wife link, the plan Dr. Harley puts forth in these letters seems even more practical.

But whatever path grid takes is up to him. True to the spirit of a forum, we are all just offering him ideas.


----------



## LongWalk

Dr Harley is a relativist. He never tells his clients that the affairs are immoral. He only talks about needs getting filled. Grid is caught between the good doctor's approach, which calls on him to patiently tolerate OM’s penis in his wife’s vagina until the contented post coital masks they wear lose their charm, and the TAM approach, which calls on him to distance himself from his wife’s destructive, dysfunctional behavior. 

There is more than one way to skin a cat. Maybe Grid’s wife is gaining courage to leave him and should have done years ago. But I don’t see how Grid can repair his marriage by emasculating himself as the first step. That will just teach his wife that she could and did break him. She will not love him more for it.


----------



## jld

LongWalk said:


> Dr Harley is a relativist. He never tells his clients that the affairs are immoral. He only talks about needs getting filled. Grid is caught between the good doctor's approach, which calls on him to patiently tolerate OM’s penis in his wife’s vagina until the contented post coital masks they wear lose their charm, and the TAM approach, which calls on him to distance himself from his wife’s destructive, dysfunctional behavior.
> 
> There is more than one way to skin a cat. Maybe Grid’s wife is gaining courage to leave him and should have done years ago. But I don’t see how Grid can repair his marriage by emasculating himself as the first step. That will just teach his wife that she could and did break him. She will not love him more for it.


I don't see Dr. Harley's plan as emasculating. And I don't think anyone's pride is what should be preventing reconciliation, if reconciliation is desired. 

Isn't Mrs. Grid's pride already a source of difficulty? Why would we want to encourage grid to add his own as another stumbling block?

We all ultimately function off needs, LW. We do what we have to do to get our most important needs met. I think Dr. Harley sees this very realistically.

But it takes a lot of emotional strength to basically walk the path of Jesus: doing the right thing, willingly, lovingly, sacrificially.


----------



## Sammy64

TeddieG said:


> I know. It is such a shame. It has become all about jld. This happens everywhere I go looking for help and a community and a safe place to talk about the horror of infidelity and understanding. Somebody who knows EVERYthing and has a vested interest in having EVERybody know ( or at least pretend that they know, or are willing to agree that they are willing to pretend that they know) that she knows EVERYthing, without the requisite experience and understanding and pain and growth, totally destroys any reasonable efforts to help a person in distress and poised to make decisions that could affect the rest of their ever-fvcking-loving life. And it all becomes about the person who knows EVERYthing, not about the person in distress, but in the event she's wrong, we're all supposed to pretend that she's nice and sweet and didn't mean to fvck somebody's life up, she was just so SURE that she knew EVERYthing, and her motives were good. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
> 
> There are so many people here saying that jlb is so sweet and so kind and so well meaning, and 25 other people are telling her that she is putting Grid's self-respect and well-being at risk, and yet she keeps barreling on. That's not sweet. That's not kind. That's not well-meaning. That's insidious and hideous and self-serving.
> 
> Jeezus. It's called Groupthink, Google it, it got us the Bay of Pigs, the Vietnam War, the Iraq War, and a whole host of other sh!t in the history of destruction we've done as a nation, and it is part of human nature and it is a profound human failing.
> 
> I just sent off an email to a Dean and his assistant dean who got the job because she sucked his evangelical Christian d!ck, and told them to fvck off.
> 
> I may not be employed next week, but I'll be damned if you can accuse ME of group think.
> 
> And while I'm on the subject, someone not too long ago asked if Grid was an only child or a third child. I bit my tongue and sat on my hands and for DAYS avoided asking the question, because it was a trigger for something I was already thinking and avoided asking for DAYS. Even so, too many people have noticed that jld has a hold and an influence over Grid, with one person using the term "mothering," which I might have earlier when I said his relationship with jld distressed me. I found words other than "mothering," but I have wondered for a LONG time if this attraction to jld might mean that Grid has mommy issues and jld tapped into that in SPADES and exploited it, or if she's just like this all the damn time.
> 
> jld, by her own admission, is channeling what Dug thinks. And Dug comes onto the thread and defends her by saying she's misunderstood. It's so typical of a submissive woman who wants to give the impression she thinks for herself and has her own ideas (when in fact she's scared sh!tless to do so for fear of being left behind and cheated on) to express something on behalf of somebody else and then have the strong alpha male swoop in and defend "her" position. It's a very evangelical Christian kind of pissy little covert contract. Sorry, but if women can't find men who acknowledge their right to think for themselves and speak for themselves, they are better off alone. I've got ZERO respect for women who channel what their men tell them to think and say and destroy lives and put their brains on a shelf and avoid consequences because their big strong alpha male comes rolling in to kick ass. My h may have had an issue with the fact that he liked Faux News and I liked NPR, but if he doesn't see the value in that, he can kiss my ass. That what separates me from the jld's of the world.
> 
> Okay, fine, stopping now. I get that this is the section on dealing with divorce and separation, but this really could just have easily been in the section on coping with infidelity, which is probably where it should have started, and I don't get why people who HAVEN'T been cheated on have the hubris (google THAT term too) to lecture people who have.




AWESOME post, THANK YOU !!!!


----------



## LongWalk

Some have remarked that Grid's thread has been hijacked. In truth it is on track. Folk wouldn't be fascinated if they had not become involved emotionally. 

I can accept that a cheater in a shıtty abusive marriage will sometime free themselves via an affair. Sex is a catalyst for life changing decisions. Mrs Grid is moving on. More power to her.

Jld, you believe Grid is salvageable, both as a man, father and husband, otherwise you would not be writing here. The instinct of a man is fight for his wife and children. There are plenty of mushy, modern beta men who would die trying to stop a violent criminal from getting to them. If to remain married to a cheating wife, a man must accept the role of cuckold, the sap will run out of him. He won't be much good to himself or his family. His wife has a need to me married to a man who has self respect.

Mrs Grid does not want him in any case at the moment. She had sex with OM more than once and every time she came home after fornicating with OM, Grid's status sank even further down. He is only maybe choice B because there is not much money for two new households. The need that Grid is currently not filling is the missing chunk of cash necessary for the mortgage on a new house


----------



## naiveonedave

jld said:


> I don't see Dr. Harley's plan as emasculating. And I don't think anyone's pride is what should be preventing reconciliation, if reconciliation is desired.


Being a cuckold is the definition of being emasculated. Sheesh JLD....


----------



## Sammy64

and, if there was 400K in a account, he has said they would be divorced..


----------



## jld

LongWalk said:


> Some have remarked that Grid's thread has been hijacked. In truth it is on track. Folk wouldn't be fascinated if they had not become involved emotionally.
> 
> I can accept that a cheater in a shıtty abusive marriage will sometime free themselves via an affair. Sex is a catalyst for life changing decisions. Mrs Grid is moving on. More power to her.
> 
> Jld, you believe Grid is salvageable, both as a man, father and husband, otherwise you would not be writing here. The instinct of a man is fight for his wife and children. There are plenty of mushy, modern beta men who would die trying to stop a violent criminal from getting to them.* If to remain married to a cheating wife, a man must accept the role of cuckold, the sap will run out of him. He won't be much good to himself or his family. His wife has a need to me married to a man who has self respect.*
> 
> Mrs Grid does not want him in any case at the moment. She had sex with OM more than once and every time she came home after fornicating with OM, Grid's status sank even further down. He is only maybe choice B because there is not much money for two new households. The need that Grid is currently not filling is the missing chunk of cash necessary for the mortgage on a new house


LW, you know Wazza on this forum, don't you? 

I am not sure if he followed Dr. Harley's plan, or just waited out his wife's affair. But today, 25 years later, he has a happy marriage and children whose lives were never disrupted. His family never paid the price of divorce.

I think he made a good decision 25 years ago.

And you are absolutely right that I believe grid can restore his marriage and keep his family intact by following Dr. Harley's plan. The only question to me is whether or not he will accept to set his pride aside and do it.


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> LW, you know Wazza on this forum, don't you?
> 
> I am not sure if he followed Dr. Harley's plan, or just waited out his wife's affair. But today, 25 years later, he has a happy marriage and children whose lives were never disrupted. His family never paid the price of divorce.
> 
> I think he made a good decision 25 years ago.
> 
> And you are absolutely right that I believe grid can restore his marriage and keep his family intact by following Dr. Harley's plan. The only question to me is whether or not he will accept to set his pride aside and do it.


Please stop bringing Wazza's name up in this context. I've already told you that's not what happened. The only thing he did differently was that he reconciled without having an admission of guilt from his wife and without having all the details. She was NOT in an active affair at the time.

And now I'm out again.


----------



## jld

naiveonedave said:


> Being a cuckold is the definition of being emasculated. Sheesh JLD....


No one can take a man's masculinity away from him, Dave. The only emasculation is self-emasculation. And I think running away from problems, rather than working through them, is an example of that.

You are looking at reputation, I think. Making decisions based on what we think others might think of us is risky. Making decisions based on what is in the true best interests of our family is much more solid.


----------



## jld

bfree said:


> Please stop bringing Wazza's name up in this context. I've already told you that's not what happened. The only thing he did differently was that he reconciled without having an admission of guilt from his wife and without having all the details. She was NOT in an active affair at the time.
> 
> And now I'm out again.


From a recent post by Wazza ("a warning" thread in CWI):

_"My wife was an absolute ahole at the time of her affair and for a while after. There were reasons. They did not excuse her choices, and I would have been totally within my rights to kick her out. You used the word damage. In my case, at least, way too mild. And it was all on her. It was her issues.

But kicking her out still would have left my kids with a broken home. It sucks, but that is what it is. 

We worked through it, in part by understanding her issues. I had to understand them to make sense of it. She had to understand them to address her shortcomings. My kids grew up in a stable, loving environment. I regained one of the most important relationships in my life. Because actually, she is this mix of good and bad. Like most people. And she happens to be a mix I can work with"._


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> From a recent post by Wazza ("a warning" thread in CWI):
> 
> _"My wife was an absolute ahole at the time of her affair and for a while after. There were reasons. They did not excuse her choices, and I would have been totally within my rights to kick her out. You used the word damage. In my case, at least, way too mild. And it was all on her. It was her issues.
> 
> But kicking her out still would have left my kids with a broken home. It sucks, but that is what it is.
> 
> We worked through it, in part by understanding her issues. I had to understand them to make sense of it. She had to understand them to address her shortcomings. My kids grew up in a stable, loving environment. I regained one of the most important relationships in my life. Because actually, she is this mix of good and bad. Like most people. And she happens to be a mix I can work with"._


And? That just says he didn't kick his wife out after her affair when she was still being an ahole. Do you believe that shows that Wazza sat at home like a good little cuckold while his wife went out shagging another man?


----------



## jld

bfree said:


> And? That just says he didn't kick his wife out after her affair when she was still being an ahole. Do you believe that shows that Wazza sat at home like a good little cuckold while his wife went out shagging another man?


I don't know the details, Bfree. My understanding is that she was living with Wazza the whole time of the affair, which happened when their kids were small. Perhaps @Wazza could verify?


----------



## TeddieG

jld, Grid is not trying to avoid his problems. But this is PRECISELY where you don't get it. What is the REAL problem? That our spouses are enamored with another person. That they think they are in love with that person. They have fantasized a life with that person that seems perfect and relieves them of responsibility and is just a non-stop love-in. They run away from us if we raise the issue of where the relationship with US is going, they are confused because they know deep down what they would be losing if we left them, or they are rushing to divorce to be with their love interest, leaving behind everything and everyone who cares about their sanity. Their reckless choices have left us and our hearts in a heap on the floor and they step on us and over us on the way out the door. They appear to have lost their minds and they have turned into someone we don't recognize. How do we respond to that? That's the huge question. 

We can TRY to talk to them about issues but the reality is, until the mask slips on the affair partner and that person becomes real instead of idealized, and the life with them becomes real and not a fantasy, we're dealing with a specter, a shell of the person our spouse once was. How you don't get this is completely beyond me, and why you keep lobbing bombs at Grid and vicariously at the rest of us and saying that's our fault, I can't fathom. 


This is the great variable that you have no clue about and no experience with. And all you can keep saying is reconcile reconcile reconcile. The majority of people here probably wanted to reconcile and wanted to work on any issues in the marriage. NO ONE HAS A FORMULA to guarantee reconciliation, not even you, in the BEST of circumstances. In April, when my h called to tell me of his heart attack in the woods fishing (brush with mortality #1 in the last 6 months, with at least two more that followed) and his concern that he barely made it to an ER, we talked for an hour, and he conceded his heart issues and circulatory issues led to his ED (and NOT the fact that he thought he didn't love me anymore). We came SO close, SOOOOO very close in the last six months to fully reconciling. In that conversation, he stepped very close to saying how sorry he was that things had gone the way they had, and for the things he had said and done in the last 7 years, and in June, he was telling me how sorry he was for the events of the last 7-8 years and how he was so grateful I was still here for him. And then he had surgery and then my mother died (brush with mortality #2 and #3), and he ran into his OW's arms again. But in that conversation in April, I told him I was prepared to HEAR from him ANYthing I had done to undermine our marriage or feed his discontent, and that I wanted to say I was sorry and wanted his forgiveness, and he said there was nothing to forgive. He said that nothing I had done warranted his choices. I waited SEVEN YEARS to have that conversation. Now, my h DOES have bi polar and is often depressed, and comes home when he is normal or manic, and when he is depressed again, he wants the drama at OW's to make him feel alive. So there ARE some variables, and he lives in a cycle that he can't seem to break. The OW is like an addiction. 

We almost made it, jld. It took me months to figure out how to respond to him in the beginning and it took months of patiently waiting for him to begin to deal with his physical health issues. And we almost made it. The reality of this experience is that there isn't a lot positive you can do for the wayward spouse, but you can do a lot for yourself, and the real kicker is, much of the time what the betrayed spouse is trying to do is come up for air and DO NO HARM, no further damage, to the marriage, than the cheating spouse has already done. Infidelity is NOT a challenge to a marriage that can be fixed overnight.


----------



## jld

Dr. Harley's methods seem to have worked for many, perhaps thousands, of couples. I think he gives advice from a solid track record.

Interestingly, I don't think his own marriage has experienced infidelity.

But grid, once again, this is all just info to consider. You know your life and what you want to do best. The rest of us are just offering our opinions.


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> I don't know the details, Bfree. My understanding is that she was living with Wazza the whole time of the affair, which happened when their kids were small. Perhaps @Wazza could verify?


Jld, I dare say all betrayed spouses are living with their wayward partners whilst the affair is ongoing. They just not privy to that knowledge until D day.

This is my last post until November. I'm not responding again. I just wanted to make sure you weren't using Wazza as an example for something that wasn't true.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> Dr. Harley's methods seem to have worked for many, perhaps thousands, of couples. I think he gives advice from a solid track record.
> 
> Interestingly, I don't think his own marriage has experienced infidelity.
> 
> But grid, once again, this is all just info to consider. You know your life and what you want to do best. The rest of us are just offering our opinions.


Yes Dr. Harleys method has worked but his method and what you suggested are way different. Dr Harley wants the BS to stop meeting the WS needs (financial emotional etc.) while still keeping the lines of communication open and not immediately filing for divorce. It's the wait her out approach. Let her and om live in the real world and fog lifts because affairs aren't quite as fun when they are not affairs anymore and their are bills to pay and custody to schedule. BH doesn't let ww cake eat anymore but is loving and empathetic when contacted.


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> Yes Dr. Harleys method has worked but his method and what you suggested are way different. Dr Harley wants the BS to stop meeting the WS needs (financial emotional etc.) while still keeping the lines of communication open and not immediately filing for divorce. It's the wait her out approach. Let her and om live in the real world and fog lifts because affairs aren't quite as fun when they are not affairs anymore and their are bills to pay and custody to schedule. BH doesn't let ww cake eat anymore but is loving and empathetic when contacted.


That is not the progression according to that letter I linked, BP. First you meet all needs for a period of six months or more. Then, if she is still waffling, you withdraw emotionally. Let's look at his response in full:


_"*People usually have affairs because their unmet emotional needs are met by their lover.* There is probably something that your wife's lover is doing for her that makes her feel so good that she is willing to sacrifice the happiness of her children, her mother, her sister and you just to get it. What is it? What does her lover do for her that is that important? *What does he give her that you have not given her? Can you change so that you can meet that need?*

The reason she is having trouble deciding between you and her lover is that you both meet different emotional needs. She says she still loves you and that may be the case, particularly since she still makes love to you twice a week. She loves you because you are meeting some of her important needs. Since she says she would leave you both if she had to decide between you, there's a good chance that neither of you meet enough of her needs for her to settle on one of you. *But if you could do for her what this other man is doing, the conflict would be ended and your family would be secure. You would have learned to meet all of her most important emotional needs, ending her affair, and the risk of others.*

If possible,* have a non-threatening discussion with her about what her friend does for her that you don't. *Ask her to complete my Emotional Needs Questionnaire so that you can see which of her most important emotional needs you are meeting, and which of them you are not meeting. It's a pretty safe guess that her lover is meeting the ones you are missing.

When you have this discussion, there is the Taker in you (see the Giver & Taker in my Basic Concepts) that will tell you to express your resentment over how much she has hurt you. Your Taker may even encourage you to let her lover have this ungrateful woman, so that you can find someone who will love you the way you are.* You will be tempted to lose your temper, to say disrespectful things, try to straighten her out, and give her ultimatums.

If you do any of these things, she will find you repulsive, and withdraw from you more than she already has. It will get you nowhere.*

On the other hand, *if you can convince her that her feelings are important to you, and you are dedicated to make decisions that are in her best interest, it will add greatly to your credibility. Right now, she is not convinced that you have put her first in your life. Convince her otherwise.*

With her mother, sister and her two children living at home, I would imagine that there is little privacy. It could be that when she is with her lover, they have the privacy that is needed to meet important emotional needs. Maybe it's not so much him as it is the environment that she and her lover share that makes him so attractive. She spends many hours each week alone with him, where they give each other their undivided attention. That kind of time and privacy is essential in meeting most of the important emotional needs. *It could be that you have not given her enough of your undivided attention in a stress-free and private environment.*

*After you have established what her lover does for her that you don't do, ask her to give you a chance to prove to her that you can do it, too. Give yourself about six months where you go all out to try your best to meet her needs. And be sure you do not wreck it all by being thoughtless or disrespectful. *If she is willing, take her with you on short vacations to places she would enjoy.* Integrate her into your life, without making her feel that you are trying to smother her and take control. Never make any demands of her time, just offer her opportunities to become a part of you, and express your willingness to become a part of her.*

She probably wants a soul-mate -- someone who she feels emotionally connected to. Somehow, over the past few years, she has lost her connection with you. *Your six month effort should be designed to help her re-connect to you.

Don't tell her that your plan is only for six months, because that would constitute a threat. Besides, you cannot be sure how long you will last. But at the end of six months, evaluate your progress. If your relationship is improving, you may be encouraged enough to give your effort another six months. Remember that her state of mind will improve if you are depositing love units and not withdrawing them. She may become less defensive and less secretive about her lifestyle. She may also tell you that she has completely abandoned her lover, and is giving you a solid chance to work things out.

But, if at the end of six months, she refuses to stop seeing her lover and doesn't seem to be responding to your efforts, tell her that you can't take the pain any longer and move out of your house. I recommend that you don't talk to her, don't see her, do whatever the law requires, but no more. The last thing she will remember of you is how kind you were to her, and how hard you tried to make her happy. Never say a harsh word to her, but when you leave, gently tell her that you do not wish to talk to her again. It's tough to carry out, with two children. But if at all possible, have your friends or family mediate so that you don't talk to her when you see your children."

When you are meeting some of her needs, and her lover is meeting others, she has the best of both worlds, at your expense. Your total disengagement from her will break the deadlock and will give her lover a chance to win her over. Let him try to meet the needs that you were meeting. If he succeeds, your marriage will be over. But if he fails, which is the usual outcome, it gives your wife a chance to test the permanence of her relationship with him. When he's faced with meeting all of her needs, he may not be able to meet those you have been meeting.

It's very important for you to leave her before you do or say things that will upset her. You will not be able to compete head-to-head with her lover indefinitely. Your Taker will finally convince you that your happiness lies elsewhere. So leave while you still have the ability to express your care for her.

If, after your separation, she comes to you later asking to give your marriage another try, you will need to determine if she is still attracted to her lover. If there is evidence that her lover really blew it with her, is completely out of her life, quit his job, moved out of state, married another woman, returned to his wife, or done something that convinces you they will never see each other again, go back to your original plan, and learn to meet her needs.

But if she is still tempted to see her lover behind your back, I suggest that you leave the area. There's a good chance that she is addicted to the man, and he is addicted to her. The only way to overcome the addiction is to have a period of abstinence. Moving away is often the only way it can be done.

You have a thriving business and she enjoys her career, too. And your children are settled in local schools. But with easy access to her lover, I'm afraid that he will just keep turning up. Even if your marriage improves, your wife will still want to remain "friends" with this man. It is an arrangement that few husbands can, or should, tolerate.*_


----------



## LongWalk

jld,

I will grant you that Dr Harley has experience and insight. He writes authoritatively. I am sure that following his strategy can sometimes save a marriage, but often I doubt that it is marriage that I would want to be in or wish upon someone I loved. Let me give you an example.

When I was in my 20s I lived in a socialist country that did not allow divorce. The people were actually too poor to divorce. Pre marital sex was treated like a crime. Communists love to be puritanical while the party top leaders enjoy banging waitresses and soldiers. Marriage was permanent. I used to play tennis at a club that had four pros. I was friends with them so that I could book court time. We used end matches with a bottle or two of beer. They could not afford to drink beer every day on their socialist monthly wage.

Over the months that I played there, I got to know them pretty well. The woman who answered the telephone was the long term lover of one of the pros. They really loved each other you could see it. Things were just loosening up a bit so this sort of crime was started to slip under the radar. The receptionist was married to a very wimpy beta guy. He used to come over after work to meet his wife. He knew the guy who was banging her. I don't think his wife gave him any sex. He was friendly to every one and he mixed in with everyone else. He must have known in his gut that his wife belonged to the tennis pro. Nobody respected him in the least. The guy could not stand up for himself and lay claim to his own wife. The tennis pro was actually not rude to him in anyway. He was diplomatic.

If Dr Harley had advised the cuckold, the cuckold would have remained there forever. The only way he could have met his wife's needs would to have stood up to her lover and stopped the affair. A weak beta guy who is ready to fight for his mate can actually drive off OM because he is ready to take risk. Of course there is no guarantee that a battle, physical or mental will go the cuckold's way. But at least he has the element of surprize.

I can see an exceptional man or woman employ Dr Harley's method and succeed. Grid is not that guy. But if he were it would be something like this:

Grid's wife announces that she has been in love with OM for a year and suddenly out of the blue they had sex and she knows this is true love and is forever. Nothing can be down to save their marriage. Grid's eyes widen in surprise for a moment and then narrow. After a pregnant pause he rhetorically comments that it must be very exciting to find this amazing love.


> Although I am sad and surprized for myself, I will get over it, so don't worry about me. I guess you'll be wanting to spend every minute you can with him. Will you move out?
> 
> Have you thought about what you'll tell our families?... Hmm...what about the children?


If this Grid was utterly kind and civil as Dr Harley advises, it would really shake his wife. Especially, if did not seem to give shyte that she was slinking off 3 or 4 nights a week. It might even take a lot of the pleasure out of the affair. The idea that your husband could just drop you even if you didn't want him, would be a major mind fvck.

Dr Harley recommends doing this for 6 months, by the way. If at the six month mark the betrayed spouse vanished without drama and filed for divorce, I do not doubt that there are some significant percentage of Mrs Grids who would be pretty much done with OM. Not all but quite a few. Note this is very much the 180, the only distinction is 6 months of faking that nothing is too wrong.

According to Dr Harley's scheme Mrs Grid would be anxious to interact. At this point Grid would say:



> I enjoyed being married to you and it's very exciting that you discovered that I am the one. Will you promise not to see OM anymore?


By this time Grid would have had done both spread sheet and flow chart analysis of fall his previous failings and would now know how to meet his wife's needs.

The Mets, beer, baseball cards and drum set would all be gone from the house. On date nights he would take her to the places that she used to go with OM. When having sex with her he would take a page out of OM's tantric erotic coffee table book. 

If his wife demanded to know if he had ever been jealous, he would reply in such as way as to meet her need for emotional engagement. What that would be is beyond my imagination. Dr Harley would find some phrase.


----------



## jld

LongWalk said:


> jld,
> 
> I will grant you that Dr Harley has experience and insight. He writes authoritatively. I am sure that following his strategy can sometimes save a marriage, but often I doubt that it is marriage that I would want to be in or wish upon someone I loved.
> 
> This is a good point, LW. Should the marriage be saved? Would the partners be happier with someone else?
> 
> I have seen marriages where people have "made it work," when I think they could have moved on to a happier, more fulfilling, probably effortless marriage with someone with whom they were naturally compatible.
> 
> A limiting factor is children. Children generally want to see their parents together, if possible.
> 
> I can see an exceptional man or woman employ Dr Harley's method and succeed. Grid is not that guy.
> 
> We don't know, LW. It is up to him. We are all presenting him with our opinions and info we have found. But he has to choose his path.
> 
> Dr Harley recommends doing this for 6 months, by the way. If at the six month mark the betrayed spouse vanished without drama and filed for divorce, I do not doubt that there are some significant percentage of Mrs Grids who would be pretty much done with OM. Not all but quite a few. Note this is very much the 180, the only distinction is 6 months of faking that nothing is too wrong.
> 
> I don't think it is faking it. I think it is the husband's acknowledging that he had not adequately met his wife's emotional needs, and had determined to change his ways. He shows he is leaving no stone unturned in his pursuit of keeping his family intact.
> 
> By this time Grid would have had done both spread sheet and flow chart analysis of fall his previous failings and would now know how to meet his wife's needs.
> 
> That's the idea.
> 
> The Mets, beer, baseball cards and drum set would all be gone from the house. On date nights he would take her to the places that she used to go with OM. When having sex with her he would take a page out of OM's tantric erotic coffee table book.
> 
> She would have become his priority.
> 
> If his wife demanded to know if he had ever been jealous, he would reply in such as way as to meet her need for emotional engagement. What that would be is beyond my imagination. Dr Harley would find some phrase.
> 
> I think he could just be honest and open with her. Transparency is essential for a healthy marriage.


----------



## jld

naiveonedave said:


> seeing as how you haven't been cheated on and are not a man, your response to this is laughable, at best. I totally disagree w/ your whole post. Emasculation is what it is and you can't control your feelings. Has nothing to do, at all, with what others think. Only what the BS thinks. And to not have this hugely negatively impact your ego, regardless of sex of the BS, is naïve.


We may not be able to control our feelings, Dave, but we can control our response to them. Our feelings can inform us, but our more rational mind might be better able to guide us.

I am sure a man who is cheated on takes a huge blow to his ego. Male pride tends to be strong. And can be limiting.

Overcoming pride in pursuit of doing the right thing for his family is ennobling. I certainly respect integrity and humility in a man. It sets him apart from the crowd.

Some BHs have remarked that they do feel judged as somehow lesser by others once it is discovered that their wife has cheated. My therapist told me once that the way people see us and respond to us has a lot more to do with them than it has to do with us. I think that is helpful to remember as we seek to live and speak our individual truths.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Grid,

How is MMSLP?


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## ButtPunch

jld said:


> That letter I quoted came right from his website, BP. Why would it conflict with one of his books?


The book has lots of different letters. They do not all say to wait six months. One story the wife is encouraged to go live with the OM.

If Grid wants to do Plan A, I'm reluctantly fine with it. I'm not a big fan because of what it does to a man's self-worth. Being a cuckold can wear on you I imagine. 

Time is ticking on the six months for Grid. He came here in July. From my experience on TAM and CWI, the six months she will get is just six months of limbo and six months of cake eating. When the BS takes action, that's when R or D occurs. 

JLD just because kids want their parents to stay together doesn't mean it's in the kids best interest. Again, I am not saying divorce is best in Grids case because I don't know. 

After the six months of the cuckold lifestyle and she still hasn't quit her job, will you then be ok with the standard TAM advice of 180 and work on yourself?


----------



## gridcom

ThreeStrikes said:


> Grid,
> 
> How is MMSLP?


I'm digging it. I read ahead a bit and it gets pretty masculine. I guess I identify as a beta with poor alpha traits mixed with some good alpha traits? But my rest position is beta.


----------



## gridcom

ButtPunch said:


> The book has lots of different letters. They do not all say to wait six months. One story the wife is encouraged to go live with the OM.
> 
> If Grid wants to do Plan A, I'm reluctantly fine with it. I'm not a big fan because of what it does to a man's self-worth. Being a cuckold can wear on you I imagine.
> 
> Time is ticking on the six months for Grid. He came here in July. From my experience on TAM and CWI, the six months she will get is just six months of limbo and six months of cake eating. When the BS takes action, that's when R or D occurs.
> 
> JLD just because kids want their parents to stay together doesn't mean it's in the kids best interest. Again, I am not saying divorce is best in Grids case because I don't know.
> 
> After the six months of limbo, will you then be ok with the standard TAM advice of 180 and work on yourself?


I am NOT doing Plan A. I am not allowing the affair to continue as long as we both live in this house. It's not an option. I cannot post again today. I have 8 cups of coffee in me and am in work crush mode right now.


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> The book has lots of different letters. They do not all say to wait six months. One story the wife is encouraged to go live with the OM.
> 
> If Grid wants to do Plan A, I'm reluctantly fine with it. I'm not a big fan because of what it does to a man's self-worth. Being a cuckold can wear on you I imagine.
> 
> Time is ticking on the six months for Grid. He came here in July. From my experience on TAM and CWI, the six months she will get is just six months of limbo and six months of cake eating. When the BS takes action, that's when R or D occurs.
> 
> JLD just because kids want their parents to stay together doesn't mean it's in the kids best interest. Again, I am not saying divorce is best in Grids case because I don't know.
> 
> After the six months of limbo, will you then be ok with the standard TAM advice of 180 and work on yourself?


I think the 180, in a case like grid's, is the shortcut to divorce. He is already powerful in his marriage. He just did not use his power correctly.

For a man who is not powerful in his marriage, I can see how a 180 could give him some needed leverage. But I would still say it is probably not a healthy marriage for him, due to the natural power imbalance. And that is a completely subjective opinion.

Grid could start the six months of finding out her needs and then meeting them today. Doing so would require lots of self-improvement on his part. I think he would be grateful for his and his marriage's progress come the middle of April.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

gridcom said:


> I am NOT doing Plan A. I am not allowing the affair to continue as long as we both live in this house. It's not an option. I cannot post again today. I have 8 cups of coffee in me and am in work crush mode right now.


Good to hear from you, grid.

MMSLP was an eye-opener for me, as well.


----------



## jld

gridcom said:


> I am NOT doing Plan A. I am not allowing the affair to continue as long as we both live in this house. It's not an option. I cannot post again today. I have 8 cups of coffee in me and am in work crush mode right now.


Grid has spoken.


----------



## LongWalk

Jld,

One major flaw with Dr Harley's approach is that one need that men and women have is for sexual variety. Men look at women all the time. That's the way our minds work. I don't think women have quite the same roving eye but they are also on the prowl. Fifty Shades of Gray didn't become a best seller because women are satisfied with their husbands.

Women are also more interested in sex at certain times of the month. There was even a study about sexual fantasy during ovulation tending away from husbands and boyfriends in favor of alpha male guys. The entire romance pulp fiction industry is about women's need to attract some fine buck and then after misunderstandings he falls in love with her and loses interest in other women. If marriage were so good, women would read Pride and Prejudice once and move on. My D20 has spend countless hours reading Jane Austen fan fiction. Actually, Austen said:

"Happiness in marriage is entirely a matter of chance."

No husband can meet his wife's need for strange. 

Furthermore, once a husband wins his wife back via Dr Harley, his wife may have a new need, namely to fornicate so that her husband will repeat the whole process again to boost her ego. How many times does the Dr Harley's approach turn the wayward wife into at serial cheater?

What if the wife wants dirty sex with someone other than her husband?

I am sad to say that I know women who have been raised to play the prima donna (a very temperamental person with an inflated view of their own talent or importance). There is no end to their needs.


----------



## jld

LongWalk said:


> Jld,
> 
> One major flaw with Dr Harley's approach is that one need that men and women have is for sexual variety. Men look at women all the time. That's the way our minds work. I don't think women have quite the same roving eye but they are also on the prowl. Fifty Shades of Gray didn't become a best seller because women are satisfied with their husbands.
> 
> Women are also more interested in sex at certain times of the month. There was even a study about sexual fantasy during ovulation tending away from husbands and boyfriends in favor of alpha male guys. The entire romance pulp fiction industry is about women's need to attract some fine buck and then after misunderstandings he falls in love with her and loses interest in other women. If marriage were so good, women would read Pride and Prejudice once and move on. My D20 has spend countless hours reading Jane Austen fan fiction. Actually, Austen said:
> 
> "Happiness in marriage is entirely a matter of chance."
> 
> No husband can meet his wife's need for strange.
> 
> Furthermore, once a husband wins his wife back via Dr Harley, his wife may have a new need, namely to fornicate so that her husband will repeat the whole process again to boost her ego. How many times does the Dr Harley's approach turn the wayward wife into at serial cheater?
> 
> What if the wife wants dirty sex with someone other than her husband?
> 
> I am sad to say that I know women who have been raised to play the prima donna (a very temperamental person with an inflated view of their own talent or importance). There is no end to their needs.


I don't know, LW. I have not read enough over there to have a feel for that. Some people do seem to just be serial cheaters. Maybe at some point they just decide to stop? 

I think the wife of "the guy" was a serial cheater. They are still together. Maybe we should ask him how to manage that.

I don't think just becoming more sexually attractive helps a man solidify his marriage. I think it is essential the emotional bonds be strengthened.


----------



## Vulcan2013

ButtPunch said:


> I just spit Diet Coke out my nose.
> 
> Everyone knows Mrs.G is a sad depressed lost frightened little child.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And not responsible for her own actions. Grid, you need to apologize for making her cheat!


----------



## Chaparral

jld said:


> I don't know, LW. I have not read enough over there to have a feel for that. Some people do seem to just be serial cheaters. Maybe at some point they just decide to stop?
> 
> I think the wife of "the guy" was a serial cheater. They are still together. Maybe we should ask him how to manage that.
> 
> I don't think just becoming more sexually attractive helps a man solidify his marriage. I think it is essential the emotional bonds be strengthened.


You should look up the guy's thread. He could use a lot of your correction.


----------



## jld

Chaparral said:


> You should look up the guy's thread. He could use a lot of your correction.


----------



## Evinrude58

Not brain surgery. The woman doesn't love him. She filed for divorce. She says at first she would stay due to kids and financial reasons. Then she filed so that's not even an option to her now.
If she was interested in reconciliation as she knows grid is, she wouldn't be moping around.
She mopes because she wants anything but her life with grid, and that's all she sees that she has now.

She won't let grid "fill her needs". She stopped that a year ago. She's an unrepentant cheater. In what crazy world can a man be happy with that? As much as people hate to change their life, grid is being forced to. It's not his choice. Dr Harley/dr jld are both speaking of the husband fixing things with a cheating wife that still has at least some love for her husband. Grid has said that his wife has none for him; by her actions I believe that.
Accept. Do the "180". See if she has some hidden love left. If she does it will show itself eventually and you can decide if it's worth the effort to grow that seed. Will you ever believe she loves you like you love her? I think the answer is no. Divorce her while she still has a conscience and will treat you fairly. If you can't support yourself because she is draining you financially while she bangs the OM, how will you feel when you can't support your daughter, either? And once you are divorced, it will be him or someone else... You are out of options on the divorce, in my opinion, grid. Good luck. I hope it turns out good for you. I have given it my best shot to save you some of the pain I went through, and that was all my intention.


----------



## Chaparral

Hey Grid, are they still sending each other love songs?


----------



## BrockLanders

The taxes alone on that house must be bleeding you dry. Why not sell it and move to a condo in Dutchess or Orange County, perhaps then you'd actually not have your hands tied and not be able to divorce because of money.


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## gridcom

The taxes on this house are super low. If we were to start from scratch, I think I can honestly say (after much arguing about it in the past) that this house is worth the price. We pay $2,100 a month for mortgage AND taxes. Taxes are extremely low for the area. My mother lives in Orange County and her taxes are more than double. The 2k bill to live here in a 3 bedroom house with extra nooks and space is worth it, especially since we own it. When it comes to other bills and debt, it's all from loans over the years that we can't get ahead of and one bad experience with our driveway and drainage under the ground (since fixed)

There have been no song exchanges between them. She's read some of the recent comments about me mentioning the PA was more than she has admitted, and she is pretty adamant that I am wrong, that it was one time and that's it. There was a few kissing sessions in the parking lot leading up to getting in bed, which she admitted right at the beginning. She's stuck hard to that story and convincingly. I think right now she is committed to not continuing with him in any way, no contact as far as it can be considering she works with him once a week. She is looking for another job although she really can look harder. She knows that at the end of the day she's going to have to choose the job over the husband (or vice versa) with the irony that if she chooses the job, she'll have to get another job ANYWAY because this job cannot provide for her and the kids with or without alimony. So, the job is eventually going to end, and she's bummed about it. As I said at the beginning, she really likes that job and enjoys it and enjoys being a vital part of a team etc. She knows that her emotional attachment to the AP is not going to completely subside as long as she works there. She knows it. 

I have not seen one evidence of any connection between them since the little Spotify incidents and even then, she says there was no "direct" communication. That was 4 weeks ago. I did respond to the divorce but we agreed that it was "paused" and there'd be no discussion of it until after Retrouvaille. That Retrovauille by the way isnt just one weekend. It's one weekend and then 6 consecutive Saturday evening sessions, so it's over the course of 7 weeks.

Last night she came home and was in a good mood. She was relaxed and comfortable, which is important. However, in her comfort she starts talking about her night at work, and mentions some co-workers who are dating each other. I politely told her she going through the caution tape again with this conversation. She didn't understand. Instead of losing my cool at this situation, I very calmly explained to her that if I had an affair with some woman from my gym, and she found out and in finding out we decided to try and reconcile the marriage but she was very angry and felt betrayed, that if I not only continued to go to that gym but I came home to talk about being at the gym, she would get upset and not want to hear about my time working out at the gym. ESPECIALLY if the woman who I slept with also still worked out at the gym

I think she understood this but, stubborn being her nature, couldn't just simply say "You're right. I should be a bit more careful about these things" or heaven's forbid "I really need to quit that job to really reconcile this marriage"

Anyway, that's an aside. Things are currently smooth here and I don't believe at all that the affair is still continuing on any level.


----------



## BrockLanders

gridcom said:


> The taxes on this house are super low. If we were to start from scratch, I think I can honestly say (after much arguing about it in the past) that this house is worth the price. We pay $2,100 a month for mortgage AND taxes. Taxes are extremely low for the area. My mother lives in Orange County and her taxes are more than double. The 2k bill to live here in a 3 bedroom house with extra nooks and space is worth it, especially since we own it. When it comes to other bills and debt, it's all from loans over the years that we can't get ahead of and one bad experience with our driveway and drainage under the ground (since fixed)
> 
> There have been no song exchanges between them. She's read some of the recent comments about me mentioning the PA was more than she has admitted, and she is pretty adamant that I am wrong, that it was one time and that's it. There was a few kissing sessions in the parking lot leading up to getting in bed, which she admitted right at the beginning. She's stuck hard to that story and convincingly. I think right now she is committed to not continuing with him in any way, no contact as far as it can be considering she works with him once a week. She is looking for another job although she really can look harder. She knows that at the end of the day she's going to have to choose the job over the husband (or vice versa) with the irony that if she chooses the job, she'll have to get another job ANYWAY because this job cannot provide for her and the kids with or without alimony. So, the job is eventually going to end, and she's bummed about it. As I said at the beginning, she really likes that job and enjoys it and enjoys being a vital part of a team etc. She knows that her emotional attachment to the AP is not going to completely subside as long as she works there. She knows it.
> 
> I have not seen one evidence of any connection between them since the little Spotify incidents and even then, she says there was no "direct" communication. That was 4 weeks ago. I did respond to the divorce but we agreed that it was "paused" and there'd be no discussion of it until after Retrouvaille. That Retrovauille by the way isnt just one weekend. It's one weekend and then 6 consecutive Saturday evening sessions, so it's over the course of 7 weeks.
> 
> Last night she came home and was in a good mood. She was relaxed and comfortable, which is important. However, in her comfort she starts talking about her night at work, and mentions some co-workers who are dating each other. I politely told her she going through the caution tape again with this conversation. She didn't understand. Instead of losing my cool at this situation, I very calmly explained to her that if I had an affair with some woman from my gym, and she found out and in finding out we decided to try and reconcile the marriage but she was very angry and felt betrayed, that if I not only continued to go to that gym but I came home to talk about being at the gym, she would get upset and not want to hear about my time working out at the gym. ESPECIALLY if the woman who I slept with also still worked out at the gym
> 
> I think she understood this but, stubborn being her nature, couldn't just simply say "You're right. I should be a bit more careful about these things" or heaven's forbid "I really need to quit that job to really reconcile this marriage"
> 
> Anyway, that's an aside. Things are currently smooth here and I don't believe at all that the affair is still continuing on any level.


Wow that's not a bad amount for mortgage plus taxes at all. I live in Suffolk County and our taxes are nuts!

Sounds like you're doing a good job in keeping your composure, I'm sure that must be difficult.


----------



## jld

Good update. Believe her when she says it was sex only once and some kissing. And trust in your belief that it is over.

I know you don't want to hear her office gossip, but you might want to reconsider that. It means she trusts you, that she shares that sort of thing with you.

Grid, things really sound hopeful.


----------



## turnera

That was a good way to explain it to her. The more she hears that, the more likely she is to understand how it feels to be you.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Grid,

Have you taken over the family finances now? Are you paying the bills, etc?


----------



## LongWalk

So your wife is reading your TAM blog. That's a very good thing.

*Good job, Mrs Grid.* Many people are rooting for you and your husband, not just to have some crap reconciliation that breaks down a few miles down the road. One of the great things about kids is that divorce – assuming there is no crazy custody battle – doesn't take them away. Co-parenting can be successful. After divorce some folks actually get along better. They can be there to help out. The chances of a good divorce sink dramatically whenever the spouse who had the affair marries the affair partner. In short, it is way better for you to divorce and start anew.

Grid considers you attractive enough to find another guy, someone economically more successful than himself or OM. That's a compliment. Grid thinks you're hot. If you reconcile, you a least know that he is a shed full of inflammable waiting for waiting for a match. You don't have to buy lingerie or viagra.

Your husband is defending your character here. Does that feel good? Right now seems like he is hardly complaining about you and is optimistic about Retrouvaille. 

What can you do to get ready for this – haha – save your marriage cult experience? All of your husband's blog followers are pretty curious about Retrouvaille. It comes up often but I recall anyone describing it. AA meetings seem to be a staple here on TAM.

Hope you can start exercising. That will help you quit smoking and feel better. When I stopped nicotine addiction, I felt younger and more energetic. Whether you end up divorcing or reconcilng, you'll appreciate the energy boost.

Also, repeating what I wrote long ago. You have behaved really well, given the circumstances. You haven't gone AWOL, sought an RO against Grid, you're not drinking vodka while fixing your kids breakfast. Neither you nor Grid have registered for dating sites. You don't spend time on World of Warcraft. Grid is watching the Mets and working on himself via Internet forums. Life could be worse for the two of you. A lot worse.

Right now is a good time to go 50,000 feet and take stock of what you've got, objectively. Is it that bad? You've only had sex once in the past three months. Some threads here count the drought in years.

Start your own thread. Because your husband loves you, you will get support, not to continue the affair but everything else.


----------



## bfree

I second the idea of Mrs grid starting her own thread. And I would vehemently defend her honor and her right to speak her mind. Rude posts and impolite comments would be met with disdain. And maybe some others who have been in her position (EI, changingme, AC, etc) would pop in to lend support and advice.

Damn, drawn in again.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Grid - curious and not trying to upset you - but a serious question. Why are you ok with being a poor choice for second place. (Kids aside of course. Because kids learn what is acceptable behavior from us.)

I've thought about this a lot - I don't think I could hang around in your situation - too much self respect. Marriage isn't a life sentence.

How do you accept the poor second best choice in your mind? I'm missing something..


----------



## TheTruthHurts

bfree said:


> I second the idea of Mrs grid starting her own thread. And I would vehemently defend her honor and her right to speak her mind. Rude posts and impolite comments would be met with disdain. And maybe some others who have been in her position (EI, changingme, AC, etc) would pop in to lend support and advice.
> 
> Damn, drawn in again.


And honest thoughtful criticism and admonishing should also be expected.


----------



## gridcom

TheTruthHurts said:


> Grid - curious and not trying to upset you - but a serious question. Why are you ok with being a poor choice for second place. (Kids aside of course. Because kids learn what is acceptable behavior from us.)
> 
> I've thought about this a lot - I don't think I could hang around in your situation - too much self respect. Marriage isn't a life sentence.
> 
> How do you accept the poor second best choice in your mind? I'm missing something..


I'm not OK with being 2nd choice IN THE END. I think that is key here. I think the whole idea of the affair was to end the marriage, but I think there is nothing wrong with the approach of letting time tell. Who's to say if I had just said "eff it" from the beginning that I soon thereafter wouldn't have been seen as the clear first choice. The difference being we MAY not have to put the kids through that trauma

To answer plainly, I'm not trying for 2nd place and if that's where I end up, I'll walk. But, we arent at the end game of this yet


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Thanks, grid. I get that. Not me but maybe I'm less beta


----------



## Chuck71

turnera said:


> He is!
> 
> jld, a question. What is y'all's background? Are you part of that evangelical movement going on, what's it called, the quiverfull or something? Are you evangelical?


Tammy Faye and the PTL did cross my mind....


----------



## ButtPunch

TheTruthHurts said:


> Grid - curious and not trying to upset you - but a serious question. Why are you ok with being a poor choice for second place. (Kids aside of course. Because kids learn what is acceptable behavior from us.)
> 
> I've thought about this a lot - I don't think I could hang around in your situation - too much self respect. Marriage isn't a life sentence.
> 
> How do you accept the poor second best choice in your mind? I'm missing something..


With this attitude there would be no such thing as reconciliation.

The most happiest people I know are some of the most forgiving.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Duguesclin

Mrs Grid, 
If I were you I would not start a thread nor would I post on any threads. What you need is to rebuild yourself. TAM is terrible for wayward spouses.

I recently was on a thread of a young woman that had an emotional affair. They way she was "helped" was ludicrous. People do not feel sympathy for wayward spouses, and I can understand why. But, in general, there is absolutely no willingness to listen or seek to understand. You will be received by angry outbursts and contempt.

Here is the link to the thread:talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/295066-h-not-interested-sex-all-what-can-i-do.html

Actually the last post of that thread sums it up: "_I agree that she's not coming back.. another one chased away_"

Please continue reading, take what works for you and disregard the rest.

You are a worthy woman. You deserved to be loved and cared for. 

Please do not accept the old Grid back, but encourage the new, respectful Grid.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

ButtPunch said:


> TheTruthHurts said:
> 
> 
> 
> Grid - curious and not trying to upset you - but a serious question. Why are you ok with being a poor choice for second place. (Kids aside of course. Because kids learn what is acceptable behavior from us.)
> 
> I've thought about this a lot - I don't think I could hang around in your situation - too much self respect. Marriage isn't a life sentence.
> 
> How do you accept the poor second best choice in your mind? I'm missing something..
> 
> 
> 
> With this attitude there would be no such thing as reconciliation.
> 
> The most happiest people I know are some of the most forgiving.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
Click to expand...


No true. Reconciliation will never occur when someone is second best. That's capitulation.


----------



## tech-novelist

gridcom said:


> I'm digging it. I read ahead a bit and it gets pretty masculine. I guess I identify as a beta with poor alpha traits mixed with some good alpha traits? But my rest position is beta.


Of course that does not justify a cheating wife, but it does make that more likely.

(In general, I mean. I've been following your story.)


----------



## Duguesclin

Evinrude58 said:


> So after having a year long affair and showing no remorse, you tell her she is a *good, worthy* woman that deserves to be cared for and respected?


So your approach is to tell her she is bad and unworthy as a person?

We need to separate the affair from the person. 

Fundamentally, the person before and after the affair is the same. Telling her she is worthy does not say the affair was OK.

What she did was wrong and she knows it. TAM treats affairs like the US government treats pot. A kid gets caught with it and ends up in jail. When he comes out, not only has he not learned his lesson, but he is more likely to be a bigger burden to society.

TAM is the early 19 century French government that sends Jean Valjean to prison because he stole bread to feed his starving family (Les Miserables). Stealing the bread was not right, but the punishment did not fit the crime. And more importantly, the circumstances that led to the crime should have been considered before the sentencing.


----------



## happy as a clam

Well, I'll agree that Jean Valjean got a bad deal.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Evinrude58

I fully understand you can't tell her what an evildoer she is without sending her the other direction. I just say that going the opposite direction and telling her she is a good worthy person and telling her grid should have to EARN her back is just flat out wrong in my world. Then again, my world is....... Divorced. But I'm happier than a year ago and have the company of someone that shows she cares about me rather than telling me what an awful person I am while sexting other men.
I'm hopeful for grid and his wife after his last post. If your wife's advice did nothing but reinforce the idea in grids head that he should give her a little time, and that works out to his advantage, I'll quickly sing her praises. I do still feel that most of what she's told grid is just as fundamentally wrong as telling her he should have to earn his wife back and how much she deserves a good man. They should earn each other back, or go their separate ways.


----------



## Duguesclin

Evinrude58 said:


> I do still feel that most of what she's told grid is just as fundamentally wrong as telling her he should have to earn his wife back and how much she deserves a good man. They should earn each other back, or go their separate ways.


Isn't it a win win solution for Grid to be a good man? Even if it does not work with his wife, he will be way ahead should he choose to start another relationship once divorced.

But honestly, if he is good, I do not know why Grid's wife would leave him.


----------



## manfromlamancha

Duguesclin said:


> Isn't it a win win solution for Grid to be a good man? Even if it does not work with his wife, he will be way ahead should he choose to start another relationship once divorced.
> 
> But honestly, if he is good, I do not know why Grid's wife would leave him.


So its not OK to call the woman who has been fvcking another POS (a real poor example of a man, by the way) for possibly a year unworthy - BUT it is OK to call Grid unworthy and disrespectful - someone who needs to improve himself so that said woman can _*"take him back"*_!?!?!? Incredible.

For the millionth and the last time - Grid is not unworthy. He has not been a bad husband over and above normal marital challenges. He has already confirmed that. She did not leave because he was an abnormally bad husband. She did not leave because she was depressed. She did not leave because life dealt her a terrible blow or she was raped when she was a child. She left because she fancied a bit of strange. What is the matter with you guys ?

And instead of trying to help Grid, you turn to knocking TAM ?!?!? 

So as a reminder, just to go over what GRID HAS ALREADY CONFIRMED:



They did not, as many of us do not, have a perfect marriage but neither did they have a terrible marriage (sure there was room for improvement in him and her, both).


They do, as many of us do, have financial challenges.


She did start behaving oddly (read sleeping with POSOM) a year ago and finally decided to tell Grid that she fvcked him just the once (Grid has already said he believes there is more to tell but she is reluctant to come clean as it will be just too awful to deal with). So she has been lying and is lying now.


Grid does still love her and would like to reconcile on the right basis and terms. She would have to want it too.


He will not be a doormat though and certainly will not be second choice or a cuckold.


She has filed for divorce and Grid has confirmed, that had they had more money, they would be divorced.


She has agreed to not fvck the other [email protected] for the time being. This could be, according to Grid, because she sees no real future with him (despite his Spotify romantic skills) or she is just hoping for an easy ride at home until she can leave to be with him.


She is even prepared to sleep with Grid if necessary to keep the status quo.




Those are the Grid confirmed facts that we are dealing with. And in the face of these the advice being given by you guys is to Mrs Grid:



Ask for alimony.


Do not make this easy for Grid. He has to really work on himself to be worthy enough for you to take him back and stop fvcking the POSOM.


Your affair is justified by his bad treatment of you during your whole marriage.


You are a worthy person. Having an affair does not make you unworthy. However, Grid is unworthy.


You poor poor woman - we feel for you.


Do not post on TAM because they know fvck all about helping way wards.


Grid needs to forget his "male pride" and follow the Dr Harley and MarriageBuilders bilge/drivel even though we are here on TAM spouting this.



If they (Grid and Mrs Grid) needed this sort of advice they would have gone to those other second rate sites.


----------



## LongWalk

Dug is right that TAM is not civil towards wayward spouses.

Ultimately it does not improve understanding of individuals or problems to curse and berate people.

Infidelity is so common that people ought to be wiling to consider it a human failing. The law no longer treats it as a crime. It is not even a civil matter for the most part.

I am still skeptical that the affair was not physical for a longer period but that is based on my prejudices. What is important here is the communication. Grid has a fear that the affair was worse than Mrs Grid lets on. He has stated this fear on TAM. His wife has read this and thinks it important enough to address. She is actually communicating with Grid about an important issue, an obstacle to reconciliation. Trickle truth is one of the killers of reconciliation. Mrs Grid should read about it.

But suppose Mrs Grid's affair did go on longer, if there is communication and forgiveness, maybe this is not insurmountable. Only the Grids can figure it out.

Happy as a Clam has saved the Sandfly quote about love being nothing but chemicals masquerading as freedom of choice. Better to stick with the drug dealer dealer who has mixed their DNA with you and shares a mortgage, all else being equal.


----------



## jld

I think grid is over his suspicion that there was more to the story than sex once and a few kisses. If he believes his wife, why are some of you here still insisting she is lying? Because that is what your own wife did, and so grid's wife must have done the same?

Grid's and his wife's situation is unique to them. Grid and his wife will write their own ending, and I hope it is one of true reconciliation.

Mrs. Grid, you need to own the affair. It was wrong, pure and simple. You need to say that outright to your husband. You need to humble yourself and ask forgiveness.

Grid needs to forgive you, and look at what he contributed to your vulnerability. He needs to own that, pure and simple. I think he had the power to prevent this, but he did not use it. And that is just as hard for him to own and ask forgiveness for as it is for you on your end.

Humility could set you two on the path to reconciliation. Please put your pride aside and humble yourselves before each other. Your daughters are worth it.


----------



## Chaparral

Having been here awhile, there is good reason waywards have been met with strong skeptisism. Way too many have come here while taking their affairs underground and seriously gutting their spouses. The damage is so great few recommend reconcilliation without total
Transparency and multiple methods of veification. False R seems to be more common than the real
thing.


----------



## jld

Grid believes her. He knows her and he said she has been consistent. I see no need to undermine that, especially at the very beginning of reconciliation.


----------



## Chaparral

Btw, anyone coming here saying they had a year long affair, kissed only a few times and had sex only once is never going to be believed by anyone that has been involved with the cwi section for any length of time. They would turn out to be right ovr 98% of the time. Grown people in love for that long not doing the deed? Unbelieveable.


----------



## Chaparral

jld said:


> Grid believes her. He knows her and he said she has been consistent. I see no need to undermine that, especially at the very beginning of reconciliation.


As with the multitudes of other wishful thinking spouses that have to come back saying "well you guys were right." Must be the most common line on this sight after "i think my spouse is cheating."


----------



## jld

MEM's wife loved another man for three years and never acted on it.

I think the credibility of CWI is suspect. Insecurity reigns supreme there.

It is a great resource for learning how to spy on people, though.


----------



## happyman64

> Things are currently smooth here and I don't believe at all that the affair is still continuing on any level.


The only place the affair is continuing is in your wife's head.

Did she truly think having an affair with a coworker was never going to cost her the job???

Her job was over the first time she crossed the line. She just did not know it.

Then again adulterers never think that far ahead beyond the land of fairies and unicorns.


HM


----------



## jld

Compatibility is also an issue. The more naturally compatible people are, the easier marriage seems to be.


----------



## gridcom

happyman64 said:


> The only place the affair is continuing is in your wife's head.
> 
> Did she truly think having an affair with a coworker was never going to cost her the job???
> 
> Her job was over the first time she crossed the line. She just did not know it.
> 
> Then again adulterers never think that far ahead beyond the land of fairies and unicorns.
> 
> 
> HM


Definitely continuing in my wife's head. She tries to deny it, and it's insulting to be honest. It's very plainly obvious that she's still hooked emotionally. When she denies it, it makes me angry. 

She's not acting on it, now. But, I know that can change any minute. I think she thinks she has it under control. Thus the reason she wants to continue working there. Deep down, her end game is to reconcile the marriage and stay at this job. In other words, no changes.

It's not happening.

Also, I didn't say I believe her about how far the PA went. I just said she is consistent and convincing. I don't think I'll ever really know.


----------



## manfromlamancha

gridcom said:


> Definitely continuing in my wife's head. She tries to deny it, and it's insulting to be honest. It's very plainly obvious that she's still hooked emotionally. When she denies it, it makes me angry.
> 
> She's not acting on it, now. But, I know that can change any minute. I think she thinks she has it under control. Thus the reason she wants to continue working there. Deep down, her end game is to reconcile the marriage and stay at this job. In other words, no changes.
> 
> It's not happening.
> 
> *Also, I didn't say I believe her about how far the PA went. I just said she is consistent and convincing. I don't think I'll ever really know.*


 @jld: This was my understanding too from Grid's last post.

FWIW, I actually think Grid is handling this very well given the circumstances. He is waiting to see it unfold but is not prepared to be a doormat, so good for him. At the end of the day, I think we all have his well being and interests at heart so whatever happens, I am sure we will continue to offer him the best advice we can give and he will continue to pick what works for him.

Keep your chin up, Grid.


----------



## Sammy64

gridcom said:


> Definitely continuing in my wife's head. She tries to deny it, and it's insulting to be honest. It's very plainly obvious that she's still hooked emotionally. When she denies it, it makes me angry.
> 
> She's not acting on it, now. But, I know that can change any minute. I think she thinks she has it under control. Thus the reason she wants to continue working there. Deep down, her end game is to reconcile the marriage and stay at this job. In other words, no changes.
> 
> It's not happening.
> 
> Also, I didn't say I believe her about how far the PA went. I just said she is consistent and convincing. *I don't think I'll ever really know.*


Can you live like that, not knowing the truth ?


----------



## ThreeStrikes

gridcom said:


> Deep down, her end game is to reconcile the marriage and stay at this job. In other words, no changes.
> 
> It's not happening.


That's one helluva game of chicken the two of you are playing.

You're sounding stronger to me, grid.

Keep reading. Keep growing. Bite your tongue when you get angry.

Calm. Steady. Dispassionate. (repeat that about 20 times)

I would encourage you to continue to *plan for the worse*. Financially, emotionally, etc. Get your ducks in a row. Let your family/friends know you are headed that way, because Mrs. Grid was involved with OM and filed for D.

However, I know you want to R, so* hope for the best*. Reconciliation completely hinges on Mrs. Grid right now. You're willing to forgive her for her affair, but she must understand it's going to be on your terms.

I'd sure be more optimistic if she verbally committed to R and gave you a heartfelt apology, with crocodile tears and all. Maybe you'll get that at Retro. Time will tell.


----------



## jld

gridcom said:


> Definitely continuing in my wife's head. She tries to deny it, and it's insulting to be honest. It's very plainly obvious that she's still hooked emotionally. When she denies it, it makes me angry. What do you expect from her, exactly? She is trying to protect your feelings. When she was honest with you a few weeks ago, and told you she could not be sure she would not have another affair, you got upset. She does not want to deal with that again.
> 
> How about giving her some room to be honest with you?
> 
> She's not acting on it, now. But, I know that can change any minute. I think she thinks she has it under control. Thus the reason she wants to continue working there. Deep down, her end game is to reconcile the marriage and stay at this job. In other words, no changes.
> 
> It's not happening.
> 
> Also, I didn't say I believe her about how far the PA went. I just said she is consistent and convincing. I don't think I'll ever really know. Have you asked the OM? Would that give you peace?
> 
> If you are going to reconcile, you should probably try to set this issue aside for now. Try to give her the benefit of the doubt.
> 
> Grid, I sense you are letting her affair overpower you. Not focusing on your own hand in setting up the conditions for it, and even now not facilitating her honesty, is further making you feel powerless. Is that what you want, to feel you have no control over making things better?


----------



## ButtPunch

Chaparral said:


> Having been here awhile, there is good reason waywards have been met with strong skeptisism. Way too many have come here while taking their affairs underground and seriously gutting their spouses. The damage is so great few recommend reconcilliation without total
> Transparency and multiple methods of veification. False R seems to be more common than the real
> thing.


I agree.

Grids ability to blindly trust has been stolen from him.

He will probably carry this forward if he stays or goes.

Anyone who reads TAM knows most R are false. 

Mrs.G may say the right things but her actions tell a different story. 

We shall see.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

Duguesclin said:


> Isn't it a win win solution for Grid to be a good man? Even if it does not work with his wife, he will be way ahead should he choose to start another relationship once divorced.
> 
> But honestly, if he is good, I do not know why Grid's wife would leave him.


Built up resentment that she cannot or will not work through? Btw, I agree that grid should work on himself.


----------



## jld

Reconciliation hinges on Mrs. Grid? Seriously?

We already know she was attracted to another man. She is still attracted to him. She is coming back to reality, but the feelings will recede slowly. Grid needs to be patient.

Even if she did cry and beg forgiveness, if it is not sincere, what good is it?

There will be no true reconciliation without grid's reaching out to her in understanding of her present feelings, why she did it in the first place, and any part he had in setting up the conditions for it. She cannot reconcile this marriage alone. And what kind of man would expect that, anyway?

One who thinks the affair is the _cause _of the trouble in the marriage and not the _consequence_, I guess. That line of thought must make a person feel powerless. Hard to believe she would be attracted to someone who feels he is powerless to help her, who relies on _her_ to carry _him._


----------



## ThreeStrikes

ButtPunch said:


> I agree.
> 
> Grids ability to blindly trust has been stolen from him.
> 
> He will probably carry this forward if he stays or goes.
> 
> Anyone who reads TAM knows most R are false.
> 
> Mrs.G may say the right things but her actions tell a different story.
> 
> We shall see.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Quick hijack about "trust".

DeMello says we really don't trust others, we trust *our judgement of others.*

Here's how my partner of 2.5 years and I handle "trust."(we are never doing the marriage thing again, and we were both married to serial cheaters). We know the red flags, we know the gut feeling.

I told her that if I* even suspect* that she is cheating, the relationship is over. And she can have the same expectations of me.

So we make every effort to be hyper-transparent, if there is such a thing. She has open access to my phone, and I to hers. Same with social media, computers, etc. No secrecy whatsoever.

We do not have close, opposite-sex friends. Well, she has a gay friend 

In other words, we are cheat-proofing our relationship. We have an agreement that if we want to explore a relationship with someone else, we will end our relationship first.

Because you know what, grid? I don't agree with what jld said earlier about "most people are good at heart". The reality is that most, if not all, of us act out of self-interest. We are all self-centered. We are all a$$es. Me too (see my avatar?).

So, if one accepts the reality that everyone acts out of self-interest, one can wake up to the truth about "trust."

Trust that people will act out of self-interest. Act accordingly.

End hijack.


----------



## jld

TheTruthHurts said:


> Awesome. Gee I wonder when that will BEGIN? Oh maybe sometime AFTER mrs. grid becomes remorseful, tells Grid she loves him, begs for forgiveness, puts Grid #1, sees IC to uncover what is lacking in her that caused her to destroy her marriage, and prays for Grid to somehow look past this and begin to think about reconciling. But none of that is happening, so... yawn


I think she lacked feeling important to her husband. He could fix that.


----------



## bfree

Duguesclin said:


> So your approach is to tell her she is bad and unworthy as a person?
> 
> We need to separate the affair from the person.
> 
> Fundamentally, the person before and after the affair is the same. Telling her she is worthy does not say the affair was OK.
> 
> What she did was wrong and she knows it. TAM treats affairs like the US government treats pot. A kid gets caught with it and ends up in jail. When he comes out, not only has he not learned his lesson, but he is more likely to be a bigger burden to society.
> 
> TAM is the early 19 century French government that sends Jean Valjean to prison because he stole bread to feed his starving family (Les Miserables). Stealing the bread was not right, but the punishment did not fit the crime. And more importantly, the circumstances that led to the crime should have been considered before the sentencing.


I agree with all of this except that the person that had the affair is fundamentally the same person. Both the BS and the WS are fundamentally changed from infidelity. If you've gone through it you'd understand. But here's the good news. With a lot of work and introspection both the WS and the BS can become better people and by extension the marriage can become much stronger.


----------



## jld

TheTruthHurts said:


> Pure speculation - one opinion. You mean "seems to me in my limited experience of one relationship". RING RING RING BS METER GOING OFF.
> 
> Opposites attract and can keep a marriage interesting. Over 30 years here for me so I guess I could be narcissistic to declare "The more naturally opposite people are, the easier marriage seems to be" but I'm not that full of myself.
> 
> I don't understand where this sense of absolute knowledge of all marriages comes from. This is what is driving people away from TAM.
> 
> Viva la difference


Opposite personalities may keep things interesting, but common values help keep marriages together. And yes, that is my opinion.

We are all giving our opinions here, and they are likely to be based on our experiences. 

If anyone is being driven away from TAM, I think it is waywards who receive little to no understanding of their feelings. And without the betrayed's understanding of those feelings, I do not know how true reconciliation can happen.

TTH, it is not that grid controls his wife's feelings. He does not. It is that he has influence. And he could use that influence to start a true reconciliation.


----------



## jld

Mrs. Grid is not weak-willed. She could be stronger, though, and I think she will get there. 

Grid said she had a good job before she had her second child. Maybe she could go back to that line of work.


----------



## bandit.45

Unfortunately, fear seems to be the only thing that brings waywards like Mrs. Grid back from the brink. She doesn't seem to be afraid of losing the marriage. I'm not sure waiting for her is going to do anything but prolong the inevitable. 

I think Grid should be patient and do a 180, but at the same time he needs to protect himself legally by filing for legal separation at the very least, that way he does not incur her debts.


----------



## jld

I don't think fear can be the basis for true reconciliation. For practical reconciliation, yes. But not for heartfelt reconciliation.


----------



## LongWalk

Chaparral said:


> Btw, anyone coming here saying they had a year long affair, kissed only a few times and had sex only once is never going to be believed by anyone that has been involved with the cwi section for any length of time. They would turn out to be right over 98% of the time. Grown people in love for that long not doing the deed? Unbelieveable.


I don't know if over 98 percent is accurate. Office affairs can smoulder for a long time before igniting. There are even different sorts of office affairs:

– the insecure woman who uses flirting, seductive behavior and sex to succeed at work. They do not believe they are competent and want EA/PA for security. Never mind that the affair could get them fired. This is a different sort of logic;

– the predator boss/manager, usually male but not always, uses position to extort sex from subordinates. He may reward the woman with business trips, promotion, pay increases;

– team relationship gone awry. The company may demand an enormous amount of time and emotion from an employee. Some people spend much more of their day with OM/W than their spouse for months and years. The corporate team building techniques specifically aim to creates bonds to improve performance.

If, billing and shipping are undergoing some internal reform to improve communication between two departments, the two executives responsible for creating empathy between colleagues may themselves praised to the heavens for their good teamwork. Even failure could push two colleagues together. The project failed because the vice presidents above them didn't want it to happen, so the man and woman forced to work in isolation and adversity. This intense shared anxiety, they relieve by assuring one another that the failure is not theirs.

– Business trip, hotel, dinner, booze, holiday from responsibility

– mutual admiration club affairs


----------



## bfree

Jld/Dug, your method can work. I've seen it in "real" life and even here on TAM. Do you recall EI (formerly Empty Inside) and B1 (formerly Betrayed One.) When they first came to TAM EI was full of resentment from B1's neglect. She was still in her affair fog and she displayed a defiant, defensive attitude. B1 was devastated and hurt and confused. He knew that much of the pre affair problems in the marriage were his fault. The advice he was receiving on TAM was to divorce and if he wanted to reconcile he should expose, do the 180, detach, etc. But he didn't think that would work in his situation. He decided to do pretty much what you both are suggesting grid do. He became a better man. He started devoting himself to the marriage. He gave EI love, affection, attention etc. He made her feel safe and secure. At first she didn't see it. Then when she saw it she didn't believe it. Gradually her heart softened and she began to experience regret, then empathy, then remorse, and finally she broke down totally and started taking in all of B1's pain. They're not as active on TAM as much as they were but all indications are that their marriage is doing well, better than ever.

Here is the biggest difference between their situation and this one. EI established NC immediately on D Day. She didn't do it initially because it was best for reconciliation. Frankly she would probably say that she was pretty sure they would divorce. She did it because even though she cheated she still cared tremendously for B1 even though she felt huge resentment. She did it because regardless of what happened in their marriage it was the right thing to do. It was only because her focus was (probably reluctant) on B1 that she was able to see and eventually accept the changes he was making. Grid's wife refuses to leave her job to establish NC. She has not ended the affair, not in her mind and not in reality.

Mrs grid, I implore you to give your marriage a chance. Notice I did not say give grid a chance. I know that's something you have no interest in doing. The marriage is half yours. You have given so much to make your family great. You love your children and you probably still have a little love left for grid. But I want you to love yourself now. If you give up you'll have regrets that will haunt you for the rest of your life. Grid is the one posting here but the heck with him. He has enough people supporting and advising him. I'm thinking of you. I'm betting on you. I believe you have the strength to make your life great. I believe you have so much love inside you that you are always giving to others. Take some of that love and give it to yourself. Love yourself enough to believe in yourself. Others here believe grid can do this. I believe YOU can do this. You are not a submissive. You are a smart, strong and fully capable woman. Give yourself a chance to prove it.


----------



## jld

I think she has ended it.


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> I think she has ended it.


An affair is not over until the affair partner is completely in the rear view mirror. She can still be in the affair and not have sex with her paramour. She can still be in the affair and not communicate with her affair partner. As long as she has voluntary periodic contact with him she is still attached to him. I've worked with many betrayed spouses and spouses that have cheated/were cheating. Infidelity does not reside in the bed. It resides in the mind.


----------



## jld

And that will take much more to heal than just having her quit her job.

Grid could help with that. He could try to understand her feelings and show empathy.


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> And that will take much more to heal than just having her quit her job.
> 
> Grid could help with that. He could try to understand her feelings and show empathy.


A scab never heals if you keep picking at it. She needs to leave that job and establish no contact. I believe bigger and much better things are in store for Mrs grid in the future. If she'll only give herself a chance I believe there is no limit to what she can do.

And that's the end of this debate.


----------



## turnera

Reading playlists is still cheating. In her heart.


----------



## jld

That would make it easier. But grid could start reconciliation right now by following the directions in the letter I posted.


----------



## jld

I think some patience is needed. She is heading in the right direction, away from the affair.


----------



## bandit.45

jld said:


> I don't think fear can be the basis for true reconciliation. For practical reconciliation, yes. But not for heartfelt reconciliation.


Oh I totally agree. 

That is why I'm not pro-R per se, because in the end the BS will have to accept the fact that s/he was settled for...not chosen. All I am pointing out is that fear of losing the marriage and family unit can knock some waywards off the fence.

Sometimes a reconciliation by duress can lead to heartfelt coming together. Its all dependent on the attitude of the wayward.


----------



## manfromlamancha

JLD, in essence I agree with many of the things you say. For example, I believe Grid should (as all husbands should) strive to be a better husband and a man.

I believe also that Grid should show Mrs. Grid compassion, empathy, strength and love.

I believe that Grid should not rely on Mrs. Grid to heal the marriage alone.

I believe that Grid should not let pride dictate what he does next.

However, you are making many, many assumptions about Mrs. Grid. bfree quoted the example of EI and B1. That was a very hard thread to read and B1 showed his strength through it all. 

But, as bfree said, EI's moral compass helped him a great deal when she knew that, after DDAY, continuing the affair pre-divorce was very hurtful to her husband and father of her kids. So she stopped it completely and allowed herself to respond to her husband's actions.

I am not sure Mrs Grid is where EI is. You sometimes say things like:



jld said:


> *I think she lacked feeling important to her husband*. He could fix that.


Where do you get this from ? What makes you think this ? Why not say something like _"the humdrum and challenges of married life were getting to her so she turned elsewhere for relief and entertainment."_

I think the most important first step is that Mrs Grid has to come clean completely with Grid and prove it to him. Grid knows his wife better than all of us and he suspects she is not doing this because there is a lot worse to come out yet.

You would respond with she is not telling him because she is "protecting him" ? How can you possible believe that ? Why not more like "protecting herself" - and that too until she knows all her ducks are in a row before leaving.

So back to what I started with - I would like to see Grid pursuing some of your advice but I am appealing to Mrs Grid here:



You really need to come clean with Grid and prove to him that you are telling the truth. No matter what outcome you desire from this marriage. It will be better for you both in the long run.


If you are decided and sure in your next steps and what you want - tell Grid! No matter how he responds to it. Again, it will be better for you both in the long run.


And then give Grid the chance to have his say and listen carefully to what he has to say. Look for his sincerity and actions. You may realise something that you did not know about Grid.


And if you think that you are in love with POSOM, entertain the idea even if it is just for a moment, that it may not be real love - just your way of dealing with your situation.


If you do all of this and then end up divorcing - c'est la vie! You can then go away knowing that you gave it a fair chance and so can Grid. May make co-parenting easier. If on the other hand you reconcile, it will be real and the marriage will be better for it.


----------



## ButtPunch

Several WS came to TAM and were not lambasted. Heck Tears had her
own fan club. Mrs. GP wasn't demonized. EI is a great poster here. 

I will admit though when a WS comes here with their usual victim mentality, 
it will get called out quickly.


----------



## Chaparral

jld said:


> I think she has ended it.


There has never been a case here that i remember where a worklace affair ended where one of them didnt quit.

Seriously, you nedd to go back through few years of threads and study what works and what doesnt. Your doing real damage to folks here and those that do not post.

The names change, the scripts stay the same. Grids wife is just another ordinary cheater we see here everyday. The only difference i see is her inability to leave due to money problems and a vastly inferrior AP. She's fence sitting hoping for a way out. Grid is sensing this. His patience is running out.


----------



## Evinrude58

jld said:


> I think grid is over his suspicion that there was more to the story than sex once and a few kisses. If he believes his wife, why are some of you here still insisting she is lying? Because that is what your own wife did, and so grid's wife must have done the same?
> 
> *Grid's and his wife's situation is unique to them*. Grid and his wife will write their own ending, and I hope it is one of true reconciliation.
> 
> Mrs. Grid, you need to own the affair. It was wrong, pure and simple. You need to say that outright to your husband. You need to humble yourself and ask forgiveness.
> 
> Grid needs to forgive you, and look at what he contributed to your vulnerability. He needs to own that, pure and simple. *I think he had the power to prevent this, but he did not use it. *And that is just as hard for him to own and ask forgiveness for as it is for you on your end.
> 
> Humility could set you two on the path to reconciliation. Please put your pride aside and humble yourselves before each other. Your daughters are worth it.


If ONLY that were true! Not so unique......

He had the power to prevent her cheating? That's just wrong. If a person wants to cheat, they can cheat. Unless Grid has used his endless influence as a husband and put a virtual Acme chastity belt on her. 
That being said, I'm thinking you meant that if Grid had been less neglectful in her feelings, that she wouldn't have WANTED to stray. But that can be said about almost every marriage. People get comfortable with their lives and get complacent. Maybe Grid could have gotten her flowers more often, taken her out to a concert more often, did xyz more often. Maybe Mrs. Grid could've done more things for her husband to make him return the love more often, too. Fact is, the problems in Grid's marriage are both of theirs to own. The problem with infidelity which is eating Grid's heart away and resulted in a loss of Mrs. Grid's love for her husband, is her's to own. My opinion is that the cheating HAS caused a possibly irreconcilable thing for them. It has resulted in her loss of love for him. She may have lost SOME love for Grid due to his POSSIBLY neglectful/intemperate ways. BUt the reason the tank is empty is because she poured the gas in the other guy's truck. 
I hope you're advice to Grid is great and he can somehow siphon some gas from his tank into hers, but from my experience, she may have put a lock on the gas cap of her car. Stupid analogy, but it works for me.....
Just sayin' 

As one poster said, prepare for the worst, hope for the best.


----------



## gridcom

bfree said:


> An affair is not over until the affair partner is completely in the rear view mirror. She can still be in the affair and not have sex with her paramour. She can still be in the affair and not communicate with her affair partner. As long as she has voluntary periodic contact with him she is still attached to him. I've worked with many betrayed spouses and spouses that have cheated/were cheating. Infidelity does not reside in the bed. It resides in the mind.


couldn't agree more. Affair may be over between the two of them (for now) but it's still very much alive in my wife's mind

Also, I should say that when my wife says she had a "year long affair" she has ALWAYS defined that (from the beginning) as her having feelings for him and him not knowing until maybe April of this year. DDay was July 7. Remember, I saw all the texts between them, and they were infrequent before April (as in one a month as co-workers may do), then in April it was one a week, then in late June (when I was away on business) it became kissing and "such"** in the parking lot until the did the deeeeeed in his house on July 7

* "and such."


----------



## gridcom

turnera said:


> Reading playlists is still cheating. In her heart.


again, agreed. To me, that was "cheating" to some degree. I think she agrees, too (even though she wont admit it)


----------



## gridcom

turnera said:


> I have personally sympathized with and helped MANY wayward spouses on here. And so have many others. All it takes for a wayward to get real help here and not vitriol is at least QUESTIONING whether what he/she did was wrong. Discussing it.
> 
> Throughout this ridiculous 166-page fight between jld and everyone else, I can't recall a single thing you have done, Mrs. Grid, to acknowledge or even question what you did. Other than to silently stop hanging out with your AP.
> 
> If you were to come here and say 'I'm not sure what I'm doing any more, help me,' you would get a TON of great advice, commiseration, and smart steps to take to get YOU out of your own quagmire, no matter WHAT the outcome. Humility helps you no matter who you are with. Honesty helps you always. Communication is the key to everything. As long as you're willing to go down THAT road, you will be helped. And who knows? If you come here and explain what it's been like for YOU, it may turn out that the tide would turn and people would be taking GRID to task, if it turns out he's been hiding his own flaws here. I've seen it happen many times.
> 
> Bottomline, all we want is for BOTH of you to reach a consensus on moving forward, hopefully together. And if you were to come here, you would learn a LOT, no matter who you end up with.


I don't know how often she comes here. When I said she was here a few days ago, I meant that I was showing her some of the comments while we were together (I've found the link for mobile phones to not be all that terrible). 

I doubt she would post here. She does need people with experience in this stuff in her head. I have been trying to get her to read "Not Just Friends" which has been on her night stand for quite some time. I think that book could help greatly

As far as me not coming clean and owning to my side of the street, I dont think I can be more transparent. And I'm not saying you are accusing me of that, but I am not "rug sweeping" my issues.


----------



## Marduk

OK I've just read this entire thread.

And, in my mind, it comes down to simply this: there is no growth without accepting accountability for your actions.

Growth does not come when someone tries to take accountability for another's actions. Growth does not come when someone tries to shift accountability to someone else for their actions.

Can the patient path work? I'm sure it can. In rare cases where the person having the affair doesn't treat the spouse as a nice safe plan B. Hell, the couple times I've seen this play out, the spouse has ended up sitting at home watching the kids while the affair person is out ****ing someone else... and coming back home to the other person hoping they can work on it. Not a good place to be.

Can the direct path work? I know it can.

I can name at least half a dozen wayward spouses that I know personally... that when their affair was exposed, and legal stuff happened, and the unicorns and rainbows ended...

So did the affair fog.

And that's when they ran to the nearest toilet, puked their guts out, and started saying "My god, what have I done?"

And that's where a reconciliation can start. Quickly, cleanly, with a minimum of trauma. Not a long drawn out "please pick me" affair.

But that's me.

Accountability is where it begins. And ends, now that I think about it.


----------



## Ms. GP

ButtPunch said:


> Several WS came to TAM and were not lambasted. Heck Tears had her
> own fan club. Mrs. GP wasn't demonized. EI is a great poster here.
> 
> I will admit though when a WS comes here with their usual victim mentality,
> it will get called out quickly.



While this is true for the most part, you couldn't pay me a million bucks to post in CWI.


----------



## bfree

Ms. GP said:


> While this is true for the most part, you couldn't pay me a million bucks to post in CWI.


Maybe the private section? I do agree that TAM is not as friendly to all posters as it used to be and that's a shame.


----------



## Ms. GP

Maybe. It's hard to own up to such a monumental f' up especially when all ypur dirty laundry has been layed out for you. It's almost easier to villify the other person in your own mind and get a divorce. The problem with that mentality is the person carries all their dysfunction into their next relationship. Lather, rinse, repeat.


----------



## LongWalk

You only have to go to Surviving Infidelity and read the wayward forum there to feel that the cheaters are human beings who are hurting. The website does not allow cheaters who are still in affairs to post. But they don't ban them for breaking NC and admitting it. But if a thread drifts to the LoveShack openness, they get a warning from the moderators. SI is policed more strictly than TAM.

It would be good if TAM had a wayward forum. It would require beefing up the TAM staff. There are good TAM posters who could stop people from insulting, name calling, rage, etc. I recall tears' thread required a lot of deletions by the moderators.

Grid,

Did your wife delete all the text messages?

If your wife doesn't belief the Spotify list coded messages was not cheating, I suggest that you write down all the songs and play them. Ask her if they cause emotional turmoil for her. They might well. They may also be a trigger for you, which is a shame because OM only chose good artists. I guess you can be happy that the affair had a good sound track.

Here is how an affair can start. Notice her ring finger.


----------



## turnera

LongWalk said:


> If your wife doesn't believe the Spotify list coded messages was not cheating, I suggest that you write down all the songs and play them. Ask her if they cause emotional turmoil for her. They might well.


An excellent idea. This could be a great path toward having real conversations. And baring souls. And empathy. And rules.


----------



## LongWalk

And you can reclaim the bands from OM, well, at least the music like. Turnera is right about the conversation possibilities, given that the songs can go both ways. Your wife may be choosing you. You may be choosing each other. You may not last.

One of the great things that you have going is art. Your wife likes music and so do you. She should be reminded that your relationship has deep roots. Examining reality is not manipulation or coercion.

At the beginning of you thread, you said something like you didn't care to know much about OM; you just wanted him to go away. That's a healthy attitude. JustGrinding hated his wife's OM. What's the point? Hating sucks up a lot of energy. Save yours for what counts.

Having sex with your wife, I mean the last time, how do you feel about that now?

I don't think you should be pushing for sex. But you must want to know if you repel your wife. How long can you stand it if she doesn't tolerate any casual affectionate contact?


----------



## Evinrude58

I liked to snuggle up at night next to my....
I think it would be a good sign if grid's wife was interested in a snuggle. If not, meh, I'd be done. Grid has outstanding patience.


----------



## LongWalk

What is the right approach to end the orbiting?

Grid,

Did your wife's affection wane during the past year?

Before Dday did you feel any foreboding?


----------



## Chaparral

HystericAl bonding seems to be essential to reconcilliation. The love drugs exchange both ways during sex. A lack of sex is a sure sign the wayward wife is still being faithful to her affair partner. This has been shown thousands of times here.

Different phone activity and a change in sex life are the two biggest redflags for cheating we see here. RDMU caught his wife because she hid her phone screen one time.

The surest sign reconcilliation is failing is no, little, or bad sex.

I dont see any improvement in this situation.

Confession
Stopped sex
Still works together
Love songs
No remorse or even guilt
Etc

What i dont recall is anyone pointing out that a cheating mother/father is also cheating on their kids. To suggest this affair has any thing to do with Grid is destructive to his family. Mrs. Grid got the hots for a younger man and went cougar on him. Few women get the chance to reconcile, about a third of the number of men that are afforded reconcilliation. Shes blowing this oppurtunity big time.

Her kids will eventually find out who she really is and how their family imploded. From what ive read here, kids aren't all that forgiving of cheating parents.


----------



## TeddieG

I took a break from this thread because I was worn out from it, from the onslaught from jld and dug, and stepped back to figure out why it bothered me so much. And finally I realized it. jld and dug act just like a cheater. They are absolutely convinced of the rightness of their position, they blame the betrayed spouse, and they have absolutely no empathy or sympathy for the suffering of the betrayed or the pain and hurt that person is experiencing and just pile on more. jld recommends hanging in and being proactive to be 'better' and to take responsibility for reconciliation, and change enough so the betraying spouse will be interested again.


----------



## convert

Grid what do you think Mrs grid would do if you all the sudden you found a new love interest in another women?

would she be jealous or would she be relieved?

if she would be relieved this says a lot that she is just staying in your marriage because of guilt.

I don't think it would take much to steal you away at this point, you seem so worn down.


----------



## jld

Are you worn down, grid? 

To me you seem to be hanging in there pretty well.


----------



## convert

jld said:


> Are you worn down, grid?
> 
> To me you seem to be hanging in there pretty well.


maybe I am projecting here from my own R or this thread it self.

but "hanging in there" can get pretty tiring:|


----------



## jld

convert said:


> maybe I am projecting here from my own R or this thread it self.
> 
> but "hanging in there" can get pretty tiring:|


I can believe that. I think that's why Dr. Harley says that not every man can follow the plan outlined in the letter I posted.


----------



## TeddieG

But jld wouldn't know this. She's never dealt with infidelity. I don't think grid is necessarily "worn down," because I remember the adrenaline rush of finding out about OW and the frenzy to understand what happened and how to respond, and the months I spent stepping back and researching what I needed to do, for me, beginning the work on myself, beginning the process of finding ways to decide whether to move, keep my job or find another or take on a second one, to prepare for the possible end of my marriage, to find stamina, and also to do no harm to the possibility of reconciliation. Worn down isn't the term I'd use; worn out, perhaps, for about 9 months, might describe it.


----------



## Pluto2

jld said:


> I can believe that. I think that's why Dr. Harley says that not every man can follow the plan outlined in the letter I posted.


And Grid has already said that is not the path he is taking.


----------



## jld

Pluto2 said:


> And Grid has already said that is not the path he is taking.


I am aware of that.

Grid, would you like me to leave your thread?


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> I am aware of that.
> 
> Grid, would you like me to leave your thread?


JLD nobody wants you to leave and no need for that passive/aggressiveness.

Grid may need your advice if his wife shakes out of the fog and the Retrouvaille trip isn't just so she can tell Grid she tried. 

One difference between you and I is I think you pay a lot of attention to what the BS & WS are saying and not what they are doing. For instance

Mrs.G says she wants to work on the marriage and is remorseful. 
You take that as her telling the truth.

I see she has filed for divorce, won't quit her job, and isn't hypervigilant bonding with Grid. Her actions tell me where she is and I don't care what she says.

Grid called himself an abusive husband but his interactions with his ww told me beta codependent fixer who keeps lashing out when all his #3's go unappreciated.


----------



## jld

What is passive-aggressive about asking him if he would like me to leave his thread?

I think it is a direct, clear question. He has said he will not do Plan A, which I think was described pretty well in the letter I posted here from Dr. Harley's site. All of my advice meshes well with Plan A. If he does not want to do it, my advice may not be what he wants to hear. 

Grid, I sent you a pm once asking if you wanted me to leave. I made the offer again halfway through this thread. I want you to know it stands. I serve at the pleasure of the thread holder, after all.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> What is passive-aggressive about asking him if he would like me to leave his thread?
> 
> I think it is a direct, clear question. *He has said he will not do Plan A*, which I think was described pretty well in the letter I posted here from Dr. Harley's site. All of my advice meshes well with Plan A. If he does not want to do it, my advice may not be what he wants to hear.
> 
> Grid, I sent you a pm once asking if you wanted me to leave. I made the offer again halfway through this thread. I want you to know it stands. I serve at the pleasure of the thread holder, after all.


Ugghh! Forget it.

Asking the question is the P/A part. 

It's clear you can only see one pov and that is of your own.

Back to ignore.


----------



## Workathome

jld said:


> What is passive-aggressive about asking him if he would like me to leave his thread?
> 
> I think it is a direct, clear question. He has said he will not do Plan A, which I think was described pretty well in the letter I posted here from Dr. Harley's site. All of my advice meshes well with Plan A. If he does not want to do it, my advice may not be what he wants to hear.
> 
> Grid, I sent you a pm once asking if you wanted me to leave. I made the offer again halfway through this thread. I want you to know it stands. I serve at the pleasure of the thread holder, after all.


Why do you keep making this about you? You keep saying things like I want them to reconcile. This is not about you, and I find it so condescending the way you speak as if you know everything when you have never been through infidelity. I have not experienced infidelity, but I am sensitive enough to listen to those that have and validate their feelings.


----------



## GusPolinski

TeddieG said:


> I took a break from this thread because I was worn out from it, from the onslaught from jld and dug, and stepped back to figure out why it bothered me so much. And finally I realized it. *jld and dug act just like a cheater.* They are absolutely convinced of the rightness of their position, they blame the betrayed spouse, and they have absolutely no empathy or sympathy for the suffering of the betrayed or the pain and hurt that person is experiencing and just pile on more. jld recommends hanging in and being proactive to be 'better' and to take responsibility for reconciliation, and change enough so the betraying spouse will be interested again.


Or a father and daughter.


----------



## LongWalk

Grid is making progress. jld and Dug are two voices among many. I think the TAM way is better than Dr Harley's but it is possible that shock and awe can provoke a decision by the wayward spouse to divorce and it can be permanent even if reconciliation was possible. There are many variables. We are not inside Mrs Grid's head.

How understanding should a BS be? Your spouse is in love with someone else. Grid's wife did not embark on this affair for sex. It even seems to me that OM has "genuine" feelings for her, even if the two of them are ignoring reality. The age difference and economic circumstances do not favor the affair becoming a LTR.

Grid,

Can your wife still have children? Did she and OM ever discuss having them?


----------



## gridcom

Nobody should leave the thread. The thread isn't being made private. I am not moving the thread. I appreciate everybody's input, on both sides. Not doing Plan A meaning I am not going allow the affair to exist, but all other parts of Plan A are kind of how I am operating. 

Sincerely, as before, I am operating my own plan. I need to be nicer, kinder, more understanding. She needs to feel safe around me. I get it. I'm trying. That said, I will not tolerate lying, cheating, or any other behavior I feel is disrespectful. And if I see it, I am calling foul on it. There are ways to be nicer, kinder, gentler, etc and NOT be a total pu$$y about it.

I am not worn down. I am frustrated sometimes. Do I feel as happy as I did the day before D-Day? No, of course not. I guess I am in limbo, by choice, for now.

For what it's worth, my IC, who I saw again today and now that makes 6 visits..... she leans more on the jld approach than anybody else's approach. I know a lot of you wont like to hear it. I think jld does have some sense that there is work for my wife to do, but that gets lost in her defending her core position which is that for right now I need to make myself and my being more inviting and then deal with the affair. That is where my IC is coming from.

No more posts today. Not much happening otherwise. These are the Days Of Our Lives.

Lets Go Mets


----------



## Chaparral

Following the map plan in mmslp is working on yourself.


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> Nobody should leave the thread. The thread isn't being made private. I am not moving the thread. I appreciate everybody's input, on both sides. Not doing Plan A meaning I am not going allow the affair to exist, but all other parts of Plan A are kind of how I am operating.
> 
> Sincerely, as before, I am operating my own plan. I need to be nicer, kinder, more understanding. She needs to feel safe around me. I get it. I'm trying. That said, I will not tolerate lying, cheating, or any other behavior I feel is disrespectful. And if I see it, I am calling foul on it. There are ways to be nicer, kinder, gentler, etc and NOT be a total pu$$y about it.
> 
> I am not worn down. I am frustrated sometimes. Do I feel as happy as I did the day before D-Day? No, of course not. I guess I am in limbo, by choice, for now.
> 
> For what it's worth, my IC, who I saw again today and now that makes 6 visits..... she leans more on the jld approach than anybody else's approach. I know a lot of you wont like to hear it. I think jld does have some sense that there is work for my wife to do, but that gets lost in her defending her core position which is that for right now I need to make myself and my being more inviting and then deal with the affair. That is where my IC is coming from.
> 
> No more posts today. Not much happening otherwise. These are the Days Of Our Lives.
> 
> Lets Go Mets


Meh! This is pretty much Plan A. I will let JLD take over from here because I don't have the stomach for Plan A. Good Luck Grid. I'll be watching your progress.

Mets got some outstanding young pitchers.


----------



## GusPolinski

gridcom said:


> Nobody should leave the thread. The thread isn't being made private. I am not moving the thread. I appreciate everybody's input, on both sides. Not doing Plan A meaning I am not going allow the affair to exist, but all other parts of Plan A are kind of how I am operating.
> 
> Sincerely, as before, I am operating my own plan. I need to be nicer, kinder, more understanding. She needs to feel safe around me. I get it. I'm trying. That said, I will not tolerate lying, cheating, or any other behavior I feel is disrespectful. And if I see it, I am calling foul on it. There are ways to be nicer, kinder, gentler, etc and NOT be a total pu$$y about it.
> 
> I am not worn down. I am frustrated sometimes. Do I feel as happy as I did the day before D-Day? No, of course not. I guess I am in limbo, by choice, for now.
> 
> For what it's worth, my IC, who I saw again today and now that makes 6 visits..... she leans more on the jld approach than anybody else's approach. I know a lot of you wont like to hear it. I think jld does have some sense that there is work for my wife to do, but that gets lost in her defending her core position which is that for right now I need to make myself and my being more inviting and then deal with the affair. That is where my IC is coming from.
> 
> No more posts today. Not much happening otherwise. These are the Days Of Our Lives.
> 
> *Lets Go Mets*


You suck.


----------



## anchorwatch

Go Mets


----------



## manfromlamancha

FWIW, I really do think JLD's approach will be very useful when and if Mrs Grid comes out of the fog and is ready to move forward. The advice JLD has given Grid in general has been very good and useful (am using some of it myself). I also think that Mrs Grid is not as lost as JLD thinks and needs to quit playing at being lost.

Once she sees Grid's strength I have no doubt that she will find it very attractive - BUT she needs to shake herself up first.

So we need you here, JLD - don't go! Grid is handling this just fine as a result of ALL the advice he is getting.


----------



## Keepin-my-head-up

gridcom said:


> Nobody should leave the thread. The thread isn't being made private. I am not moving the thread. I appreciate everybody's input, on both sides. Not doing Plan A meaning I am not going allow the affair to exist, but all other parts of Plan A are kind of how I am operating.
> 
> Sincerely, as before, I am operating my own plan. I need to be nicer, kinder, more understanding. She needs to feel safe around me. I get it. I'm trying. That said, I will not tolerate lying, cheating, or any other behavior I feel is disrespectful. And if I see it, I am calling foul on it. There are ways to be nicer, kinder, gentler, etc and NOT be a total pu$$y about it.
> 
> I am not worn down. I am frustrated sometimes. Do I feel as happy as I did the day before D-Day? No, of course not. I guess I am in limbo, by choice, for now.
> 
> For what it's worth, my IC, who I saw again today and now that makes 6 visits..... she leans more on the jld approach than anybody else's approach. I know a lot of you wont like to hear it. I think jld does have some sense that there is work for my wife to do, but that gets lost in her defending her core position which is that for right now I need to make myself and my being more inviting and then deal with the affair. That is where my IC is coming from.
> 
> No more posts today. Not much happening otherwise. These are the Days Of Our Lives.
> 
> Lets Go Mets


Grid,
You speak as if you are the one who filed and had the affair.

And I don't say that as in a "bad wife, she must be punished way!"

I mean that yy speak as if the choice to not divorce is mostly yours.
It is not.
The way things are going and the way actions are being played out, it is on your wife to choose you over whatever else option she has.

So, if you are going to woo her, go ahead and bathe those tootsies in rose water and feed her red m&m's. 
Get out of "Limbo" and go do it.

Or dont...
In the mean time,
With what you know as fact already.
Start working on a beneficial custody plan for your children with her.
A division of whatever assets you have,bulls,etc...

She has a lawyer right?
Don't think for a second that a lawyer is not already doing these things.
That is what a divorce lawyer does!

Soon you will have your retro camp.
That will then become the thing right in front of you and you work on that.

Right now you are being thrown advice from every direction (including me).

This thread is head spinning.
So, take what you want from one side or both, but please work on the tangible issues that you have been given.

Also, I don't know if it has been mentioned but, have you been served?


----------



## LongWalk

He has been served. He has answered within the 20 days allowed by law. Now the clock is ticking. Maybe the petition is insufficient and thus there is room to delay the settlement.

Grid is getting stronger. 

His wife is luxuriating in the drama of two men fighting over her. She wants to choose. Maybe in her mind Retrouvaille will provide a face saving opportunity to either way.


----------



## Divinely Favored

jld said:


> And that will take much more to heal than just having her quit her job.
> 
> Grid could help with that. He could try to understand her feelings and show empathy.


The fog will not diminish until she no longer works with the Fvck buddy. It keeps the rush of memories of the sex romps fresh and alive.

Why is this meat head still working there? Raise hell with hr and get his ass fired. Did any of this happen on company time, party or property...kissing or more? Was POSOM or enabling toxic friend a supervisor or in mgmt......lawsuit anyone?

Force the company to reassign one of them to a completely different location at the least. 

These *******s need to have their nuts fed to the local dogs. At least then they can not breed. Let them take testosterone shots for the rest of their lives.

DEER!!!!! Sorry about that.


----------



## farsidejunky

Lawsuit equals debt reduction plan...


----------



## just got it 55

anchorwatch said:


> Go Mets


My a hol is still puckering from 1986

Billy fvcking Buckner indeed:surprise:

55

Go Cubbies

(This ones for you Tommy 67):grin2:


----------



## jld

Grid, what ideally would you like from your wife? What would be healing to you?

Could you paint a picture for us of what, very specifically, you would like from her at this point to begin repairing the relationship? And at some point to make it a stronger relationship than it was before?

You have said she has work to do on herself. Could you describe that work, as you see it?


----------



## jld

Found this on another site, grid. This man reminds me of you.


The Betrayed Spouse's Role After an Affair - Marriage AdvocatesMarriage Advocates


_"To summarize what I think is critical to recovering from the head-on crash of infidelity and breaking the emotional road block:


One of you has to be strong and take the lead toward recovery.

Decisions early on must not be rash and must be made with an eye toward what you truly want. Let no one dissuade you.

Since the wayward (or walkaway) spouse is often not capable of having the strength to lead toward recovery, it falls on the betrayed or left behind spouse.

Make up your mind to get through this terrible crash and destruction.

Redirect your pain and anger into action.

Protect yourself, but don’t bury yourself in protection.

Focus on what YOU can do with YOU to make recovery possible and help your spouse believe it is possible. You can’t expect a wayward or walk away spouse to do this. They must see hope in order to try. Your hard work can provide that hope.

Recognize that only you can control yourself and your feelings. The same applies to your spouse. Focus on showing that you can control yourself, that you will not punish, and that you will have compassion towards him/her and his/her feelings.

Someone has to take the lead and try to break that roadblock. Do you have what it takes?"_


----------



## gridcom

jld said:


> Grid, what ideally would you like from your wife? What would be healing to you?
> 
> Could you paint a picture for us of what, very specifically, you would like from her at this point to begin repairing the relationship? And at some point to make it a stronger relationship than it was before?
> 
> You have said she has work to do on herself. Could you describe that work, as you see it?


I do agree with many posters here that, in general, people who haven't suffered through infidelity cannot comprehend what it's like. My wife does and mostly says little things that are seemingly small that eat away at me for hours or even days. In general, my guard is way, way up and even though a person who's never dealt with this can say "I understand that", the truth is they don't know the meaning of having your guard up this high.

What I want from my wife right now, honestly? I want her to take action. Meaning I want her to explore through reading wht it is that happened here, as opposed to burying her head in the sand and wishing it would all go away. I want her to more forcefully make efforts to remove the OM's hook from her heart, meaning quite frankly getting another job in another town and turning her back on what my IC called her "second family". I want her to really think about what divorce would be like for her and the children, because along with burying her head in the sand, I don't think she has really confronted a life without me being the primary parent of these two girls. It makes me extremely angry that I suspect that once I get over the hill of attachment to her for good and walk out of her life for good, she'll ONLY THEN realize that she made a horrible mistake and then be calling and begging for forgiveness. 

And, in some ways, because she admittedly has not looked at the reality of divorce, that's been my attitude this whole time. Don't flip flop and flake on these kids. You have a responsibility that should be a top priority of thinking clearly and making good choices

That is not happening. She is trying to R I suspect because that's the way the terrain down the mountain is leading her, but she is not thinking it through on her own. A recipe for false R and ultimately another affair somewhere way down the road.

In other words, I want my wife to wake up, own what she did, understand it fully from all sides, and if she wants to fix it, start fixing it. Not let it get fixed by me.

I am reading the MMSLP book and it's pretty good. I understand now what my mistakes are/were early on. 

No more posting today. Lot's of work


----------



## bfree

Grid, detachment will help you with those things that your wife says and does that eat away at you. Detachment doesn't mean you don't love her. It just means that you aren't adversely affected by everything she says and does. It gives you some perspective and helps you to level out the roller coaster you have been placed on. Detachment also doesn't mean you cannot reattach at some point but it allows you to have the wisdom to know when/if the right time for that is. And judging by your posts your are slowly detaching. That's good and it means you are on the correct path.


----------



## gridcom

I feel bad about my last post. I had just woke up, and I was frustrated a bit and there was no specific reason why. My wife is doing fine the last batch of days, and so am I. If there is anything I can do better, it's show some more patience. That last post isn't an example of that. I still want those things to happen, but.....yeah


----------



## ThreeStrikes

gridcom said:


> In other words,* I want my wife to wake up, own what she did, understand it fully from all sides, and if she wants to fix it, start fixing it.* Not let it get fixed by me.


Exactly what many of us have been watching for since this thread started.

And we don't see it, either.

Curious, in the past has your WW ever apologized for other things? You know, like burning the toast or spilling the milk?


----------



## anchorwatch

gridcom said:


> I feel bad about my last post. I had just woke up, and I was frustrated a bit and there was no specific reason why. My wife is doing fine the last batch of days, and so am I. If there is anything I can do better, it's show some more patience. That last post isn't an example of that. I still want those things to happen, but.....yeah


Two steps forward...


----------



## bfree

gridcom said:


> I feel bad about my last post. I had just woke up, and I was frustrated a bit and there was no specific reason why. My wife is doing fine the last batch of days, and so am I. If there is anything I can do better, it's show some more patience. That last post isn't an example of that. I still want those things to happen, but.....yeah


That's why it's referred to as the roller coaster. You're not perfect, just keep striving for better.


----------



## turnera

gridcom said:


> I want her to really think about what divorce would be like for her and the children, because along with burying her head in the sand, I don't think she has really confronted a life without me being the primary parent of these two girls. It makes me extremely angry that I suspect that once I get over the hill of attachment to her for good and walk out of her life for good, she'll ONLY THEN realize that she made a horrible mistake and then be calling and begging for forgiveness.


grid, we've talked about this before. There are things YOU can be doing to start giving her a wakeup call. Spreadsheets, cutting off the money and using that money to pay down debt, cutting out expenses like cable or luxury foods, selling household items and using the money to pay bills, closing bank accounts...she has had, from what I can see, NO consequences and NO window into her future life. You can start doing things toward this end, with or without her.


----------



## TeddieG

gridcom said:


> I do agree with many posters here that, in general, people who haven't suffered through infidelity cannot comprehend what it's like. My wife does and mostly says little things that are seemingly small that eat away at me for hours or even days. In general, my guard is way, way up and even though a person who's never dealt with this can say "I understand that", the truth is they don't know the meaning of having your guard up this high.
> 
> *And consequently it is hard to relax; you're on high alert and there's no rest. *
> 
> What I want from my wife right now, honestly? I want her to take action. Meaning I want her to explore through reading wht it is that happened here, as opposed to burying her head in the sand and wishing it would all go away. I want her to more forcefully make efforts to remove the OM's hook from her heart, meaning quite frankly getting another job in another town and turning her back on what my IC called her "second family". *I want her to really think about what divorce would be like for her and the children, because along with burying her head in the sand, I don't think she has really confronted a life without me being the primary parent of these two girls. It makes me extremely angry that I suspect that once I get over the hill of attachment to her for good and walk out of her life for good, she'll ONLY THEN realize that she made a horrible mistake and then be calling and begging for forgiveness. *
> 
> *This is what I too had to face and it was the great crapshoot of the whole situation, and I had to endure it courtesy of my h. And THIS is what I meant, in part, by the uncertainty. There is NOTHING you can do about THIS. You can ask her to consider it, but you can't make her process it.*
> 
> And, in some ways, because she admittedly has not looked at the reality of divorce, that's been my attitude this whole time. Don't flip flop and flake on these kids. You have a responsibility that should be a top priority of thinking clearly and making good choices
> 
> That is not happening. *She is trying to R I suspect because that's the way the terrain down the mountain is leading her, but she is not thinking it through on her own. A recipe for false R and ultimately another affair somewhere way down the road.*
> 
> *THIS! Exactly.*
> 
> *In other words, I want my wife to wake up, own what she did, understand it fully from all sides, and if she wants to fix it, start fixing it. Not let it get fixed by me.*
> 
> *Excellent. Despite the uncertainty and the possibility of an outcome you may not like, this is what has to happen. *
> 
> I am reading the MMSLP book and it's pretty good. I understand now what my mistakes are/were early on.
> 
> No more posting today. Lot's of work


What ThreeStrikes said, too. Good job.


----------



## gridcom

turnera said:


> grid, we've talked about this before. There are things YOU can be doing to start giving her a wakeup call. Spreadsheets, cutting off the money and using that money to pay down debt, cutting out expenses like cable or luxury foods, selling household items and using the money to pay bills, closing bank accounts...she has had, from what I can see, NO consequences and NO window into her future life. You can start doing things toward this end, with or without her.


I think what she is drawn to are things I can never ever again provide: Freshness, intensity (at least initially), Romance.

But similar to looking at something on the shelf that you are drawn to, like jewlery or something similar (or for me, an awesome looking drumkit or all in one power washer/leaf blower/chainsaw), she's been staring at what she wants in a trance and has yet to tip it over and look at the price. Quite honestly, that's the best analogy I can use. She's looking at a beautiful snowglobe, but has yet to look at the price on the bottom. 

And again, I must say that this week has been fine more or less. Maybe she's getting there.


----------



## anchorwatch

Not true! Those are things we can still provide each other. There are simple methods of doing so. It's when we take each other for granted, build up resentments and become self deserving, it can't happen.


----------



## LongWalk

When you say things are getting better, do you mean she initates conversation that is normal? Does she make physical contact to give you any sort of assurance?



> I think what she is drawn to are things I can never ever again provide: Freshness, intensity (at least initially), Romance.


When a couple become disconnected, simply returning to a normal level of passion can be impossible. Either of you can feel that it is not going to happen. If you keep trying, you can be proven wrong. The problem is that by the time she might be willing to reach out to you in a real way, i.e., to be vulnerable, you may be gone.


----------



## bfree

anchorwatch said:


> Not true! Those are things we can still provide each other. There are simple methods of doing so. It's when we take each other for granted, build up resentments and become self deserving, it can't happen.


Totally agree. I keep my marriage fresh by doing things as if we were still dating and I was out to "win" her. You'll learn about some of those things in the MMSLP book but there are other sources as well. I've sent flowers to my wife for no other reason than I wanted to. I've bought her lacy lingerie as a surprise gift and then (gasp!) didn't bug her for sex. I've written my wife poetry. I've left little love notes around for her to find. I've also done lots of what Athol Kay would call alpha moves. I got positive reactions from all of them as well. The great thing about being human is that although most of the time we are drab and predictable we also have the capacity to be fun, creative and spontaneous.


----------



## anchorwatch

So true bfree, a bit of excitement can always be introduced into our daily lives.


----------



## turnera

gridcom said:


> I think what she is drawn to are things I can never ever again provide: Freshness, intensity (at least initially), Romance.
> 
> But similar to looking at something on the shelf that you are drawn to, like jewlery or something similar (or for me, an awesome looking drumkit or all in one power washer/leaf blower/chainsaw), she's been staring at what she wants in a trance and has yet to tip it over and look at the price. Quite honestly, that's the best analogy I can use. She's looking at a beautiful snowglobe, but has yet to look at the price on the bottom.
> 
> And again, I must say that this week has been fine more or less. Maybe she's getting there.


I think you missed my point. You said she isn't recognizing what she's facing, so I said you can be doing things - whether she participates or not - to CHANGE the experience at home so that she DOES start to see what her 'great new life' will look like. For financially ignorant or immature spouses, this is vital. So many of them just see a dream life and can't put 2 and 2 together to see they will never attain it as a single person. This, IMO, is NOT being harmful to her or being mean or uncaring; rather, it IS a caring act because you're helping her understand just what she thinks she is dreaming about is not a reality, so that she doesn't make decisions that will end up hurting herself, out of ignorance.


----------



## jld

LongWalk said:


> The problem is that by the time she might be willing to reach out to you in a real way, i.e., to be vulnerable, you may be gone.


I think this is a real risk. It seems to be what happened to Confused's husband.

If you are committed to the marriage, you can be patient and wait until she is drawn in again by your changes. If you are not truly committed, and might walk, it would probably be good to let her know that the window will not be open forever, and what specifically you expect from her, and by when.

Then again, right now might not be the time to say that, especially if you do see improvement in the relationship. You don't want her to feel pressured and discouraged. You want a genuine reconciliation, after all, not one driven by duress.

Idk, grid. I still feel like this whole thing is mostly up to you, at least for the foreseeable future. It is up to how much you truly love and are committed to her. And I can see how that can feel frustrating to hear. And maybe not possible to deliver on. After all, you have your own very human limits, too, just like we all do.


----------



## just got it 55

turnera said:


> grid, we've talked about this before. There are things YOU can be doing to start giving her a wakeup call. Spreadsheets, cutting off the money and using that money to pay down debt, cutting out expenses like cable or luxury foods, selling household items and using the money to pay bills, closing bank accounts...she has had, from what I can see, NO consequences and NO window into her future life. You can start doing things toward this end, with or without her.


T IN THE LONG RUN ABSOLUTELY

And in the long run When you get the finances in order,
it naturally give your family greater security.

Until Mrs. Grid shows improvement just treat it as a business.

Then RorD will not be the primary factor for one or the other.

You both can make a decision based on your relationship not the other than obvious financial implications.

Again clean up the $$$$$ mess as a team if you can get her to cooperate . If not..... that's a sign for a less than optimistic outcome.

It will become less complicated.

In the end your family will all benefit.

55


----------



## just got it 55

gridcom;13945081[B said:


> _]I think what she is drawn to are things I can never ever again provide: Freshness, intensity (at least initially), Romance._[/B]
> 
> But similar to looking at something on the shelf that you are drawn to, like jewlery or something similar (or for me, an awesome looking drumkit or all in one power washer/leaf blower/chainsaw), she's been staring at what she wants in a trance and has yet to tip it over and look at the price. Quite honestly, that's the best analogy I can use. She's looking at a beautiful snowglobe, but has yet to look at the price on the bottom.
> 
> And again, I must say that this week has been fine more or less. Maybe she's getting there.


Grid I know you are really thick into the sh!t at the moment but.....

You can absofvckinglutly provide that and more
you are only limited by your imagination.

I became what I believe to be the man my wife would leave me for.

Big turn around for us she had 1 1/2 feet out the door.

It's all good and you can get there if only she will get there with you

55


----------



## LongWalk

And so jld, how is Mrs Grid to tune into her husband's heart?

Mrs Grid may have had good reason to quit her marriage. She even told Grid that she was done. He ignored her. Instead of actually quitting her marriage to find out what a new life would hold for her, she began a new life in secret. She then declared that she was quitting when she broke the news of her infidelity. What is her position now? She filed for divorce, upholding her intention to leave Grid but also agreed to attempt reconcilation. 

Grid does not believe she actually has considered what divorce will mean in practical terms. Ultimately, no one reading this thread believes that making a good life post divorce is impossible. A debt of 70,000 dollar is not a crushing weight. Unpleasant, yes, fateful no. Of more interest is the question of whether Grid and his wife can or will ever be into each other. One of Grid's therapists advised him that a good enough marriage would excellent. Expectations should be lowered. Is Grid willing to remain married to a woman who is simply tolerating him as good enough?

Has Grid's wife imagined the Gridless life? Can she imagine it without getting rid of OM as an option?

Has she discounted the OM as a future option?


----------



## jld

LongWalk said:


> And so jld, how is Mrs Grid to tune into her husband's heart?
> 
> Mrs Grid may have had good reason to quit her marriage. She even told Grid that she was done. He ignored her. Instead of actually quitting her marriage to find out what a new life would hold for her, she began a new life in secret. She then declared that she was quitting when she broke the news of her infidelity. What is her position now? She filed for divorce, upholding her intention to leave Grid but also agreed to attempt reconcilation.
> 
> Grid does not believe she actually has considered what divorce will mean in practical terms. Ultimately, no one reading this thread believes that making a good life post divorce is impossible. A debt of 70,000 dollar is not a crushing weight. Unpleasant, yes, fateful no. Of more interest is the question of whether Grid and his wife can or will ever be into each other. One of Grid's therapists advised him that a good enough marriage would excellent. Expectations should be lowered. Is Grid willing to remain married to a woman who is simply tolerating him as good enough?
> 
> Has Grid's wife imagined the Gridless life? Can she imagine it without getting rid of OM as an option?
> 
> Has she discounted the OM as a future option?


I am concerned that she does not realize the practical implications of a divorce, LW. I am encouraged to hear that she had a well-paying career just five years ago, though. I am hoping she can get back into that.

Undoubtedly her heart hurt for a long time before that affair started, or before that young man was on the horizon. I don't think he was just "some strange." I think that is why grid's therapist is working with him to improve himself, to draw her back into the marriage. I think there were genuine problems there that preceded her heart opening to another man.

I would love to see Mrs. Grid truly be able to hear grid's heart. I would love to see her genuinely hurt for him, to reach out to him with warmth and empathy. I doubt she realizes how hurt he feels. Under his anger is his hurt, and his fear she will have another affair. 

I would love to see her put her own hurt and pride aside and really look at him, and their daughters. I would hope to see her swear off affairs forever, whatever happens with grid. Who wants to live in the dark like that?

Depending on what and how much he needs from her, and whether or not she can give it within his time limits, the marriage may or may not end. No, divorce would not be the end of the world. And it may have to be that way.

But I cannot say in good conscience that I am looking to her to fix things. I think she was disappointed for a long time. I think grid has a lot of repair work to do. I really am looking at him to draw her back in, to remind her why she married him in the first place. 

I think if he could succeed at putting his marriage back together, he would feel greatly empowered not only there, but in life in general. His confidence would improve as he realizes how much influence he has when he can work towards a goal and control his emotions surrounding it.

But specifically regarding the marriage, it might be good for him to read lifeistooshort's link again.


----------



## truster

gridcom said:


> And again, I must say that this week has been fine more or less. Maybe she's getting there.


Maybe. I will say this, however -- it's par for the course for the couple working through this stuff to still have polite and pleasant interactions as long as the picking of the 'affair' scab is kept to a minimum. Pleasantness and politeness in interactions in no way suggests improved chances of reconciliation. The only way you will know if things are improving are if progress is made during points when you're facing the issue head-on.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

truster said:


> Maybe. I will say this, however -- it's par for the course for the couple working through this stuff to still have polite and pleasant interactions as long as the picking of the 'affair' scab is kept to a minimum. Pleasantness and politeness in interactions in no way suggests improved chances of reconciliation.


Hence the term "rugsweeping". Pretend the affair never happened. 

I did it.

Mrs. Grid is banking on Grid doing it.


----------



## LongWalk

When a couple like the Grids have been together so long the fallout from the affair must be must be a surprize every morning. They awake and remember there is a world of trouble. So it is no wonder that Mrs Grid just wishes it would vanish. It may be that she counting on the divorce. She may also be going back and forth in her mind.

Also, what is Mrs Grid comparing? The best high feeling from intense new love with OM versus a glum and irritated familiar husband. If Grid could be the happy guy from another time in their relationship, perhaps that would help to banish OM. But how is Grid to be happy in these circumstances. The two persons acting pleasant towards each other. How do you break through the wax coating of civility?


----------



## jld

LongWalk said:


> When a couple like the Grids have been together so long the fallout from the affair must be must be a surprize every morning. They awake and remember there is a world of trouble. So it is no wonder that Mrs Grid just wishes it would vanish. It may be that she counting on the divorce. She may also be going back and forth in her mind.
> 
> Also, what is Mrs Grid comparing? The best high feeling from intense new love with OM versus a glum and irritated familiar husband. If Grid could be the happy guy from another time in their relationship, perhaps that would help to banish OM. But how is Grid to be happy in these circumstances. The two persons acting pleasant towards each other. How do you break through the wax coating of civility?


He could be as sincere as possible. That includes being vulnerable.

"Wife, it breaks my heart to think of you with another man. I know I was aggressive and likely dismissive of you. I never thought the consequence would be to hear you were in bed with another. I reel from the mind movies of that."

"I want to repair things. I really do. If I could go back in time, there are so many things I would do differently. I would make you a priority. I would hold my tongue during arguments. I would listen and seek to understand you instead of walking away angrily."

"Honey, I don't want to focus on what you did. I really want to focus on what I have done, and now, in a different direction, can do, to change things. That is where I can best influence our marriage."

"But I have to say it: my heart is truly broken. I loved you. I put my trust in you. And as self-pitying as that may sound, my trust in you, my deepest trust, is shattered."

"As much as you are hurt, my dear, _I_ am hurt, too. And at some point, I think that has to be acknowledged."

Not sure now is the time, but at some point I think these things, if they are what you are indeed feeling, need to be expressed, grid. 

Your wife may be like me and think her husband is impenetrable. It is hard for me to ever imagine Dug truly being hurt by me. I just do not feel I have that kind of power over him. To me he is so big and strong I just feel unable to truly wound him.

Again, not sure your wife sees you that way. But if she does, you may want to show her that she really did hurt you, that she has power over you, too. And just like you are trying to use your power to bless her instead of hurt her, she can use her power to bless and heal you, too.


----------



## Chaparral

You're cluless as to your husbands feelings towards you? You dont think it would hurt him if he caught you in bed with another man? I cant believe i just read that. Are you for real?


----------



## jld

LongWalk said:


> Jld,
> 
> Grid has expressed himself here and his wife may or may not be interested. She has read about herself and protested the insinuations that the affair might have different history than her account.
> 
> Her reputation is important her. Did she ask Grid to tell TAM that she is hurting for him?


Why do you think she cares what TAM thinks? She already told him he is better off not reading here. 

I don't think her reputation on TAM is what made her protest. It is that what she read was not true. 

They will not grow if he is persuaded to believe falsehoods. Their troubles are serious enough just dealing with the truth.


----------



## jld

Chaparral said:


> You're cluless as to your husbands feelings towards you? You dont think it would hurt him if he caught you in bed with another man? I cant believe i just read that. Are you for real?


Dug is very confident, chap. And I am pretty devoted to him.

He has told me that if I ever cheated, the first thing he would want to know is what he did wrong. Because to him, if I were ever driven to cheat, it would be because he was not meeting my needs in some way. And he would want to fix that.


----------



## TeddieG

LongWalk said:


> When a couple like the Grids have been together so long the fallout from the affair must be must be a surprize every morning. They awake and remember there is a world of trouble. So it is no wonder that Mrs Grid just wishes it would vanish. It may be that she counting on the divorce. She may also be going back and forth in her mind.
> 
> Also, what is Mrs Grid comparing? The best high feeling from intense new love with OM versus a glum and irritated familiar husband. *If Grid could be the happy guy from another time in their relationship, perhaps that would help to banish OM. But how is Grid to be happy in these circumstances. *The two persons acting pleasant towards each other. How do you break through the wax coating of civility?


LongWalk, I'm sure you're being hypothetical here, even subjunctive, and are not truly proposing that Grid attempt this, but I think, for the one time since I've been here and learned how awesomely you think and speak, I might take issue with this, even hypothetically. Grid could be the happy guy from another time in their relationship, but I don't think it would matter to Mrs. Grid at this point. Affair fog will STILL make the OM look better, and if Grid returns to some idealized or more pleasant version of himself before the debt, the bills, the house, and the kids, I still think that very very often, not ALL the time, but the very vast majority of the time, when a spouse has an affair, something breaks in that spouse where it comes to the BS, and when BS discovers or is told about the affair, something in him or her breaks too. I can't remember who it was that posted, maybe here or another thread (White Rose's thread, I think), that he and his wife reconciled but there has always been, and ever will be, something different about the marriage, things they can't have, share, or enjoy, because of the affair. This person echoed something that's been posted before about a marriage being good enough, or even better in many ways post-affair reconciliation, but never perfect. A responder on White Rose's thread said, no, that's settling, I want 100%. No marriage is 100%, and I think part of the reason for cheating is that a wandering spouse thinks 100% means romance and sex and all that, but even that is not possible when the affair becomes a relationship. 

What I think is that the affair changes both people, and reconciliation is a process of determining who both people are after the fact, to see if they can be together again. I know if my h were to ask for reconciliation, I'd be fully aware that I'm dealing with a different guy in the body, with the brain, of my h, but whose experiences have changed him and changed me. I'd want to investigate that before I made a commitment to a life-long relationship with him.


----------



## happy as a clam

All of this will only make grid appear more door-mattish.


----------



## jld

Chaparral said:


> People arent driven to cheat. This is why your advice in the infidelity section is seen as destructive. ChetIng is caused by a lack of morality and character, no more. Good people do not cheat. People that do not care for their spouses cheat and dont care what happens when the affair is exposed cheat.


Dr. Harley said, "People usually have affairs when their unmet emotional needs are met by their lovers."

That makes sense to me. I don't think that people in general will willingly accept to go without their needs met forever. 

I think "good people" would be surprised what they might do if they were starving and had no legitimate way to get food, for example.


----------



## happy as a clam

jld said:


> Dr. Harley said, "People usually have affairs when their unmet emotional needs are met by their lovers."
> 
> That makes sense to me. I don't think that people in general will willingly accept to go without their needs met forever.
> 
> I think "good people" would be surprised what they might do if they were starving and had no legitimate way to get food, for example.


I agree with this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

happy as a clam said:


> I agree with this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good.


----------



## gridcom

Evinrude58 said:


> She says what sounds good to justify her actions in her own mind. But what she's really thinking, grid wouldn't want to hear.


ugh


----------



## jld

truster said:


> The problem I find with this metaphor is that there *is* a legitimate way to get your emotional needs met if your relationship is not meeting them -- end the relationship, like an adult.


Before you start an EA or PA, right?

Happy, did you say once that you started an EA with your current SO before you filed for divorce from your ex-husband? I have heard other posters mention that.

If that is correct, why did you not divorce him first?

Maybe Mrs. Grid did it for the same reason.


----------



## jld

gridcom said:


> ugh


Could you elaborate, grid?


----------



## ButtPunch

Evinrude58 said:


> Grid thinks you do, but there's a difference between what she says and what's really true. She says what sounds good to justify her actions in her own mind. But what she's really thinking, grid wouldn't want to hear.



QFT

Ms. GP eluded to it earlier. It is easier to villify your spouse and get a divorce rather tthan to own your mistakes and look into the mirror.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## truster

jld said:


> Before you start an EA or PA, right?


Exactly. A cheater can't use emotional starvation as an excuse when that option exists. Well, they can, and frequently do, but to anyone but themselves and other self-justifying cheaters it holds no water.


----------



## TeddieG

happy as a clam said:


> Actually, I think that post you're referring to was one of your most lucid, heartfelt posts. And clearly shows that you are aware of a possible false R occurring.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## happyman64

jld said:


> Compatibility is also an issue. The more naturally compatible people are, the easier marriage seems to be.


Grid

I have said this before and I will say it again.

Put your focus on you right now.

Be the best man you can be.
Be the best Dad you can be.
Be the best employee you can be.

And if you feel that you still have strong love for your wife then be the best husband you can be.

But everything in life has an expiration date my friend. Put one on your marriage. Set a date in your head to evaluate your marriage. To evaluate your wife.

She did the very same thing to you and your marriage a year ago.

She decided to fall in love with someone else.
She decided to have an affair and cheat.

So as you get stronger, as you get secure in your skin knowing that You will be fine no matter whether you truly reconcile or divorce you will be amazed that either direction will not be the end of the world for you.

Because in my opinion your wife is fence sitting. She has an affair, decides she wants to walk, files for divorce but has yet to feel any consequences from her own decisions.

She will not feel any pressure or consequences from your decisions until you make one.

There is no rush. Take all the time you need. But an honest self evaluation is certainly required.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with loving a cheater. It does certainly show which spouses loves the other more doesn't it......

HM


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## bandit.45

Happy has it nailed. 

The only way you are going to be able to affect any kind of change in your situation is to make yourself stronger. 

You cannot control your WW or her feelings towards you. For whatever reasons she lost her romantic feelings towards you long ago. Now, with that idea firmly internalized, you need to move in the direction that you feel is best for you and your own personal growth. Let her steer herself, you pick a direction and GO. 

Drive your own train. You WW can either hop on board or you leave her at the station. Simple as that. I cannot make it any more simpler.


----------



## jld

3putt, here is the exact quote:



jld said:


> _"*People usually have affairs because their unmet emotional needs are met by their lover.* There is probably something that your wife's lover is doing for her that makes her feel so good that she is willing to sacrifice the happiness of her children, her mother, her sister and you just to get it. What is it? What does her lover do for her that is that important? *What does he give her that you have not given her? Can you change so that you can meet that need?*
> 
> The reason she is having trouble deciding between you and her lover is that you both meet different emotional needs. She says she still loves you and that may be the case, particularly since she still makes love to you twice a week. She loves you because you are meeting some of her important needs. Since she says she would leave you both if she had to decide between you, there's a good chance that neither of you meet enough of her needs for her to settle on one of you. *But if you could do for her what this other man is doing, the conflict would be ended and your family would be secure. You would have learned to meet all of her most important emotional needs, ending her affair, and the risk of others.*
> 
> If possible,* have a non-threatening discussion with her about what her friend does for her that you don't. *Ask her to complete my Emotional Needs Questionnaire so that you can see which of her most important emotional needs you are meeting, and which of them you are not meeting. It's a pretty safe guess that her lover is meeting the ones you are missing.
> 
> When you have this discussion, there is the Taker in you (see the Giver & Taker in my Basic Concepts) that will tell you to express your resentment over how much she has hurt you. Your Taker may even encourage you to let her lover have this ungrateful woman, so that you can find someone who will love you the way you are.* You will be tempted to lose your temper, to say disrespectful things, try to straighten her out, and give her ultimatums.
> 
> If you do any of these things, she will find you repulsive, and withdraw from you more than she already has. It will get you nowhere.*
> 
> On the other hand, *if you can convince her that her feelings are important to you, and you are dedicated to make decisions that are in her best interest, it will add greatly to your credibility. Right now, she is not convinced that you have put her first in your life. Convince her otherwise.*
> 
> With her mother, sister and her two children living at home, I would imagine that there is little privacy. It could be that when she is with her lover, they have the privacy that is needed to meet important emotional needs. Maybe it's not so much him as it is the environment that she and her lover share that makes him so attractive. She spends many hours each week alone with him, where they give each other their undivided attention. That kind of time and privacy is essential in meeting most of the important emotional needs. *It could be that you have not given her enough of your undivided attention in a stress-free and private environment.*
> 
> *After you have established what her lover does for her that you don't do, ask her to give you a chance to prove to her that you can do it, too. Give yourself about six months where you go all out to try your best to meet her needs. And be sure you do not wreck it all by being thoughtless or disrespectful. *If she is willing, take her with you on short vacations to places she would enjoy.* Integrate her into your life, without making her feel that you are trying to smother her and take control. Never make any demands of her time, just offer her opportunities to become a part of you, and express your willingness to become a part of her.*
> 
> She probably wants a soul-mate -- someone who she feels emotionally connected to. Somehow, over the past few years, she has lost her connection with you. Your six month effort should be designed to help her re-connect to you.
> 
> *Don't tell her that your plan is only for six months, because that would constitute a threat. *Besides, you cannot be sure how long you will last. But at the end of six months, evaluate your progress. If your relationship is improving, you may be encouraged enough to give your effort another six months.* Remember that her state of mind will improve if you are depositing love units and not withdrawing them. *She may become less defensive and less secretive about her lifestyle. She may also tell you that she has completely abandoned her lover, and is giving you a solid chance to work things out.
> 
> *But, if at the end of six months, she refuses to stop seeing her lover and doesn't seem to be responding to your efforts, tell her that you can't take the pain any longer and move out of your house. I recommend that you don't talk to her, don't see her, do whatever the law requires, but no more. The last thing she will remember of you is how kind you were to her, and how hard you tried to make her happy. *Never say a harsh word to her, but when you leave, gently tell her that you do not wish to talk to her again. It's tough to carry out, with two children. But if at all possible, have your friends or family mediate so that you don't talk to her when you see your children."
> 
> When you are meeting some of her needs, and her lover is meeting others, she has the best of both worlds, at your expense. *Your total disengagement from her will break the deadlock and will give her lover a chance to win her over. Let him try to meet the needs that you were meeting. If he succeeds, your marriage will be over. But if he fails, which is the usual outcome, it gives your wife a chance to test the permanence of her relationship with him.* When he's faced with meeting all of her needs, he may not be able to meet those you have been meeting.
> 
> *It's very important for you to leave her before you do or say things that will upset her. You will not be able to compete head-to-head with her lover indefinitely. Your Taker will finally convince you that your happiness lies elsewhere. So leave while you still have the ability to express your care for her.*
> 
> If, after your separation, she comes to you later asking to give your marriage another try, you will need to determine if she is still attracted to her lover. If there is evidence that her lover really blew it with her, is completely out of her life, quit his job, moved out of state, married another woman, returned to his wife, or done something that convinces you they will never see each other again, go back to your original plan, and learn to meet her needs.
> 
> *But if she is still tempted to see her lover behind your back, I suggest that you leave the area. There's a good chance that she is addicted to the man, and he is addicted to her. The only way to overcome the addiction is to have a period of abstinence. Moving away is often the only way it can be done.*
> 
> You have a thriving business and she enjoys her career, too. And your children are settled in local schools. But with easy access to her lover, I'm afraid that he will just keep turning up. Even if your marriage improves, your wife will still want to remain "friends" with this man. It is an arrangement that few husbands can, or should, tolerate."_


_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

happy as a clam said:


> Yippee Kay Yay!
> 
> Meanwhile, while you're at your "big family gathering" this weekend, grid is struggling trying to put your plan into action.


I am always here for you, grid. Dug and I both are, and for your wife, too. Dug was hoping that if she did register, she would contact me through pm. I would love to be a support to her as you two go through reconciliation. 

I believe in your marriage. I have great faith that you two can work this out. I am also very concerned for your daughters in all of this.

Grid, my work here on TAM is a labor of love. If I did not think the ideas I put forth could not bring forth greater joy and growth in people's relationships, even if they somewhat shock them at first, I would not promote them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lila

I've been keeping up with this thread since the beginning. Never felt the need to post because there were enough people involved that it wasn't necessary. However, I find the bullying and insults towards JLD to be disgusting and completely contrary to what I believe TAM is supposed to represent. 

The same people who are sitting here b!tching about JLD's posts are the ones that have caused this thread to grow to over 2625 with their back and forth insults and blow backs. How does any of that help the OP? He has SPECIFICALLY ASKED JLD TO CONTINUE POSTING ON HIS THREAD! Again, HE HAS SPECIFICALLY ASKED JLD TO STAY ON HIS THREAD.

JLD is not your whipping post folks. If you have issues with her method of dealing with marital issues, take it up with her via PM. Using Grid's threads is disrespectful.

I'm asking the moderators, @EleGirl, @FrenchFry, @Deejo, @MEM11363, @Amplexor, and @Coffee Amore to please intervene in this mess of a b!tchfest.


----------



## SadSamIAm

Grid .... This is how most of the world thinks. It is the truth. 

Quoted from: My Partner Cheated and Says It's All My Fault*|*Sheri Meyers

"When I discovered my husband had an affair I was both devastated and furious, but what I didn't expect after confronting him is that he would blame me for his infidelity!"

In my private practice as a relationship therapist and infidelity expert, I hate to tell you how often I hear reiterations of this statement from my clients. A revelation of an affair is a devastating blow to any relationship, but when the cheater blames their partner for creating a situation that "made them" vulnerable to the affair, that usually puts the shock and hurt over the top.

Quite often the men say it's because their partner has lost interest in them, sexually. Women most often blame a lack of emotional intimacy for why they suddenly became erotically entangled with another man. "He understands me and listens to me in a way that my husband (or boyfriend) doesn't," is the common refrain.

As much as the cheater would like to cast off their guilt by blaming their partner for their bad behavior, it really doesn't work that way.

When infidelity occurs, the cheating partner bears the brunt of owning most, if not all, of the blame. Not only did the cheating partner choose to ignore or downplay the pre-existing problems, behaviors and conditions that made the relationship vulnerable to cheating, but they actively made the decision to betray their partner instead of facing up to those problems and working through them.

However, since a relationship is the creation of what two people put into it, when cheating happens, both partners must take a serious look at their own responsibility and contribution to the downfall of their closeness. An emotional indiscretion or physical affair is really a loud wake-up call to both partners that there is something seriously amiss in the primary relationship.


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## LongWalk

Jld, I think there is a kind of logic in your philosophy. I don't share it in general but I can see how your approach might succeed in reconciling some couples. Ultimately, you believe Grid should accept that his wife suffering withdrawal because she has lost the man she loves. Further you believe that Grid take OM's place, meeting the needs OM met. Most of us believe this is backwards. As Grid himself pointed out, he cannot be a new romantic figure.

Also, jld, don't you think that many men and women have crushes on people. The key is that they let it die or hold it under control. Feeding an EA with sex changes all the parties involved. Teddie is right about this.


----------



## gridcom

Evinrude58 said:


> Grid, you are probably not interested in my posts, but is your wife someone who rarely says she is sorry, and often places blame on others?


frustratingly so


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## EleGirl

*I agree that this is getting out of hand. From here on out only post to the OP. Anything else is considered a thread jack and will lead to a ban.*

People are allowed to have different points of view here on TAM. Trying to censor others is not acceptable.

Right now I have a meeting for the rest of the afternoon so I cannot read the rest of this thread to figure out what's happened since the last time I posted on here days ago. But I will after that.

(unless another moderator happens along and cleans house)



.


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## ThreeStrikes

It really doesn't matter, because grid has followed very little of *any* of the advice given by *any* of us.

Jld is a know-it-all personality type. If you read enough threads, you'll see it. If that bothers you, *put her on ignore*. If she stops getting her ego kibbles from you good people, she will move along to another thread.

Edit: I have no idea what happened to the post I was responding to. Must've been deleted.


----------



## Pluto2

gridcom said:


> frustratingly so


I also have read the thread, but didn't have the stomach to enter the fray.
Anyway, I've notice that people who can't offer a heart-felt apology either were essentially brow-beaten by their FOO when it came to apologies to siblings (You apologize to your brother right now!), or they tend to have a low self-esteem, so that any apology is seen as an admission that they are less than perfect.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Pluto2 said:


> I also have read the thread, but didn't have the stomach to enter the fray.
> Anyway, I've notice that people who can't offer a heart-felt apology either were essentially brow-beaten by their FOO when it came to apologies to siblings (You apologize to your brother right now!), or they tend to have a low self-esteem, so that any apology is seen as an admission that they are less than perfect.


Agreed. It's very difficult to have a healthy relationship with someone who doesn't own their POS tendencies. Doubly so if they are hypersensitive to any sort of criticism (a trait of Cluster B PDs).

It's probably why Mrs. Grid stopped IC...and is the reason why she would benefit from IC.


----------



## gridcom

The only person I am going to ask to leave the thread is the next person who asks me if I want them to leave the thread 

I am reading all of this. It's frustrating. Right now, here's where we are at

- we are going to Retrouvaille and my wife is into going. She wants to go
- When asked if she wants to fix her marriage she says she wants to want to fix it and has an open mind
- We've been having sex
- I have not been up her a$$
- I have not been texting incessantly nor e-mailing links. I have been working, watching baseball, and taking things day by day.
- My wife does not love me and she admits that to be true
- She hasn't seen the OM except at work. Otherwise, believe that is truth
- She still has feelings for him
- She believes love is an action and not something that comes and hits you in the face. That said, we disagree on if she is taking action
- I am taking jld's approach of being kind and trying to be more senstive, listening more, doing more around the house, etc and at the same time I am focusing on myself and a life without my wife
- Our kids got their school pictures yesterday and my wife posted both of them on Facebook. I told her I looked at them and my first thought was "I hate my wife for what she's done" No need to mince words, ever.

A lot of the future of this relationship hinges on the next 2 months. There is no need for people to attack jld and there is no need for all the back and forth. I don't agree with everything she says. I am not under her spell. I think she understands that when I was an a$$hole at times in my marriage, I was a REAL m&therf&cking s&onofab*tch a$$hole. That is real. That really happened. 

My wife cheated. It was wrong. Everybody in her life has a lower opinion of her now because of it except for a few, and she has to live with that. She is NOT some weakling looking for me to lead. I have told her how truly sorry I am and was emphatically sincere about it (because I am). That said, I cannot do that anymore. Those fake conversations jld proposes I have, I HAVE had already. What jld is asking me to do, I am doing currently. I am not kissing a$$ though. Sometimes, I get angry for no reason at all and I'm not ashamed of it. 

My wife is stubborn to a fault. It is the biggest turn off about her and always has been. We talked about it immediately after we started dating and while I have lost my cool to a way over the top degree, it's frustrating to live with that stuff

Case in point/excellent example: She wants to stay in her "field" if she is going to switch jobs. I call up three places I know in her field (because we are kinda/sorta in the same field) and ask them to consider her if there are any openings. Place 1 offers an interview right away and while they dont have any openings, they meet and they like her and "we'll see what happens down the road". Place 2 same thing, except they are actually talking about her coming to work there very soon (at least part time). Place 3 responds and says "We dont have any openings now, but send a resume and we'll get in contact if anything opens up"

She never sends the resume to Place 3. Now, keep in mind, the places in her line of work are not plentiful within a 25 mile radius of our house. You can maybe count on two hands the places that would fit her exact skills, and Place 3 has to rank 3rd and maybe 2nd of all of those places. She won't send the resume. I tell her "Why not send the resume. What's the problem? They know me. Why not? It takes 2 minutes to respond to the e-mail, with me on copy, and attach the resume" She wont do it. They won't give her an interview so therefore they arent worth the two minutes to send the resume. This is terribly frustrating to me. OF COURSE you send the freakin' resume, are you crazy? It's a great place. Keep yourself fresh for the place. But, the more I tell her that she is being a child by not sending the resume, the deeper she digs in and just simply wont send it

This is the kind of stubborn I've been dealing with for years and years.

Ah, that felt good.

See ya!


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Grid,

Are you hoping that Retro helps redirect the love your WW has for OM back to you?

Is that what you mean when you say everything hinges on the next 2 months?


----------



## gridcom

ThreeStrikes said:


> Grid,
> 
> Are you hoping that Retro helps redirect the love your WW has for OM back to you?
> 
> Is that what you mean when you say everything hinges on the next 2 months?


I've read a ton about Retrouvaille in the last day. A part of me questions if we should even bother going. My wife has feelings for another man, what's the point. But, at the same time, I ask how can it hurt?

Answer is yes, I suppose


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> I've read a ton about Retrouvaille in the last day. A part of me questions if we should even bother going. My wife has feelings for another man, what's the point. But, at the same time, I ask how can it hurt?
> 
> Answer is yes, I suppose


Your wife isn't going to snap out of it until she is accountable.
This is just my opinion and is in line with standard TAM advice.
TAM advice has been developed as a combination of several different 
books and is not something us posters made up. The 180 comes
straight out of the book Divorce Busting.

Have you checked on any of the codependency books I mentioned and do you even know what the term refers to. I see the huge red flags in your posts and let me tell you it is a relationship killer. 

Rarely in my experience here on TAM has your method worked here on TAM. The nice behavior on your part is viewed as that of a doormat and will push her away further. You talk tough but your wife knows she has all the cards. She knows you can't let go. 

Once you do let go things change. Once you stop meeting her needs things will change. Follow HappyMans advice. He knows. Hes been here a long time.Retro may work but I doubt it. TAM experience tells me any sort of MC while OM is still in the picture is just a waste of money. WS sometimes agree to counseling to take the pressure off, relieve their guilt and tell their friends and family they tried to make it work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## just got it 55

Grid Mrs. Grid does not love you

She admits to still have feelings for him

What in Gods Green Earth gives you any hope ?

Sorry Bud I hope for the best for you and all your family.

55


----------



## ThreeStrikes

gridcom said:


> I told her I looked at them and my first thought was "I hate my wife for what she's done" No need to mince words, ever.


Cheaters are wrecking balls, no doubt about it. I continue to have similar thoughts to this day, from time to time.

My first experience with a cheater was when I was 6. A bunch of us were playing Chutes and Ladders, and one kid (who was leading) took his turn and my sister yelled "cheater!". Apparently he should've landed on the square that makes you slide all the way back down to the bottom. Well, he jumped his game-piece right over it and went to the next square, hoping we wouldn't notice.

It evoked a visceral response in me. I was angry at the kid. I decided I didn't like him.

Now, some would blame the game. Because that's harsh, man. You're about to win, and you land on that square, and "swish!", down you go to last place. That's harsh! Who designed that game??No wonder the kid cheated. The game isn't fair!

Not me. The kid was acting out of self-interest. He placed winning at any cost above everything else. I decided I wouldn't play with him anymore.

I was an avid cyclist in my teen and young adult years. I loved the Tour de France, and of course Lance Armstrong was my idol. Everyone knows the story. He was frequently accused of cheating, and denied it. Until the smoking gun was found years later.

Some would say that Armstrong was driven to cheat, because of the pressure to win. After all, a lot of other cyclists were cheating too! To me? He's no different than that kid who was playing Chutes and Ladders. Selfish, arrogant d!ck.

That fvcking cheater ruined one of my favorite sporting events, for me. I don't even watch it anymore. 

A decade ago, I was ranked #1 worldwide in a video game. I loved this particular game. It was a blast to play. I spent a lot of time on it (think George Costanza and Frogger). My kids and then wife played it with me (co-op). Anyways, after some time I noticed a fellow beating all of my scores. Shattering them! It turns out he was exploiting a scoring glitch in the game. Cheating. I wrote to the developers. They admitted they knew about it, but they said they were not going to devote the resources to the game to fix the code. Soon, the leaderboard was littered with cheaters.

I quit playing it. Once again, a cheater ruined something I cared about.

I coached youth sports. Its simply astounding how many cheaters are involved in youth sports. And I'm talking about adult coaches, not the kids.

Finally, you know some of my story. My serial cheating wife ruined my marriage and tore my family apart. "I hate my wife for what she's done".

I get it, man.

Cheaters are wrecking balls. I have no tolerance for them in my life, in any capacity. It's my opinion that it's a *character* issue. Nobody drives a cheater to cheat. 

If you have a cheating problem in any relationship you have...marriage, financial, friendship, etc. It always boils down to character. And *you* can't change *another person's* character.

My dad told me, when I was a kid, that if you're playing with a kid who cheats, take your toys and go home. Sage advice.


----------



## MEM2020

Grid,

Retrouvaille will help you. If you choose not to go, that's a step in the direction of giving up. 

M2 used to be really stubborn. Exactly like you describe. And competitive when I hoped for collaboration. 

She isn't like that anymore. Perhaps that's because I'm not hitting the triggers which bring out her stubborn, competitive side. 

Your wife will love you again, given time. 

The more often you tell her that you hate her, the longer it will take for her to love you. 

Have you done a budget yet? 




gridcom said:


> The only person I am going to ask to leave the thread is the next person who asks me if I want them to leave the thread
> 
> I am reading all of this. It's frustrating. Right now, here's where we are at
> 
> - we are going to Retrouvaille and my wife is into going. She wants to go
> - When asked if she wants to fix her marriage she says she wants to want to fix it and has an open mind
> - We've been having sex
> - I have not been up her a$$
> - I have not been texting incessantly nor e-mailing links. I have been working, watching baseball, and taking things day by day.
> - My wife does not love me and she admits that to be true
> - She hasn't seen the OM except at work. Otherwise, believe that is truth
> - She still has feelings for him
> - She believes love is an action and not something that comes and hits you in the face. That said, we disagree on if she is taking action
> - I am taking jld's approach of being kind and trying to be more senstive, listening more, doing more around the house, etc and at the same time I am focusing on myself and a life without my wife
> - Our kids got their school pictures yesterday and my wife posted both of them on Facebook. I told her I looked at them and my first thought was "I hate my wife for what she's done" No need to mince words, ever.
> 
> A lot of the future of this relationship hinges on the next 2 months. There is no need for people to attack jld and there is no need for all the back and forth. I don't agree with everything she says. I am not under her spell. I think she understands that when I was an a$$hole at times in my marriage, I was a REAL m&therf&cking s&onofab*tch a$$hole. That is real. That really happened.
> 
> My wife cheated. It was wrong. Everybody in her life has a lower opinion of her now because of it except for a few, and she has to live with that. She is NOT some weakling looking for me to lead. I have told her how truly sorry I am and was emphatically sincere about it (because I am). That said, I cannot do that anymore. Those fake conversations jld proposes I have, I HAVE had already. What jld is asking me to do, I am doing currently. I am not kissing a$$ though. Sometimes, I get angry for no reason at all and I'm not ashamed of it.
> 
> My wife is stubborn to a fault. It is the biggest turn off about her and always has been. We talked about it immediately after we started dating and while I have lost my cool to a way over the top degree, it's frustrating to live with that stuff
> 
> Case in point/excellent example: She wants to stay in her "field" if she is going to switch jobs. I call up three places I know in her field (because we are kinda/sorta in the same field) and ask them to consider her if there are any openings. Place 1 offers an interview right away and while they dont have any openings, they meet and they like her and "we'll see what happens down the road". Place 2 same thing, except they are actually talking about her coming to work there very soon (at least part time). Place 3 responds and says "We dont have any openings now, but send a resume and we'll get in contact if anything opens up"
> 
> She never sends the resume to Place 3. Now, keep in mind, the places in her line of work are not plentiful within a 25 mile radius of our house. You can maybe count on two hands the places that would fit her exact skills, and Place 3 has to rank 3rd and maybe 2nd of all of those places. She won't send the resume. I tell her "Why not send the resume. What's the problem? They know me. Why not? It takes 2 minutes to respond to the e-mail, with me on copy, and attach the resume" She wont do it. They won't give her an interview so therefore they arent worth the two minutes to send the resume. This is terribly frustrating to me. OF COURSE you send the freakin' resume, are you crazy? It's a great place. Keep yourself fresh for the place. But, the more I tell her that she is being a child by not sending the resume, the deeper she digs in and just simply wont send it
> 
> This is the kind of stubborn I've been dealing with for years and years.
> 
> Ah, that felt good.
> 
> See ya!


----------



## anchorwatch

Don't have any preconceptions about Retrouvaille, Grid. 

Can't say it'll save your M, there are no promises. 

I will say, from where you both are, it will help you both. 

A lot more than we can... 

Hint, We all make mistakes. We all process things differently. You can't do it for her. Your wife is not you. When we know better we do better. 

Ditto Mem's post


Who do you want to see? Toronto or KC?


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## soccermom2three

I don't understand this huge investment in what other people post. Don't worry, Grid doesn't seem like a weak minded guy, he won't be "brainwashed" if that's what ya'll are concerned about. No need to bully other posters that you don't agree with.


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## gridcom

ButtPunch said:


> Your wife isn't going to snap out of it until she is accountable.
> This is just my opinion and is in line with standard TAM advice.
> TAM advice has been developed as a combination of several different
> books and is not something us posters made up. The 180 comes
> straight out of the book Divorce Busting.
> 
> Have you checked on any of the codependency books I mentioned and do you even know what the term refers to. I see the huge red flags in your posts and let me tell you it is a relationship killer.
> 
> Rarely in my experience here on TAM has your method worked here on TAM. The nice behavior on your part is viewed as that of a doormat and will push her away further. You talk tough but your wife knows she has all the cards. She knows you can't let go.
> 
> Once you do let go things change. Once you stop meeting her needs things will change. Follow HappyMans advice. He knows. Hes been here a long time.Retro may work but I doubt it. TAM experience tells me any sort of MC while OM is still in the picture is just a waste of money. WS sometimes agree to counseling to take the pressure off, relieve their guilt and tell their friends and family they tried to make it work.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


A few things about this post. 1- I guess I don't know what codependence means. I think I know what it means, but maybe not. I've looked up the defeinition when this started and the terms was bandied about. Before that, I never cared to know what it meant. 

B Man, how many books can I read? I'm still 35% through the other book. I would love to read it all, but I only have so much time. 

C How do you define the "as long as the other man is in the picture" exactly? Lets take her at her word. Lets say she see's him once a week, they work on different levels of a building, don't or very rarely interact. According to her, not a peep has been spoken among them. A few days ago we exchanged phones and I was allowed to look in her's. No funny business and I found out how you can tell when a text has been erased. I checked other texts. Found nothing. My wife has been consistent and not overly dramatic about telling me she is staying away from him. She does admit her feelings for him still linger. I'd imagine they're still sometimes intense. She can't admit that those feelings are a detriment to our reconciliation, but I think she's just basically either lying to me to relax me or she really is in fog. Anyway, being 70k in debt, we are not in position for her to quit this job cold turkey. She is looking, but can look harder. In her defense, she volunteers for too much crap and her days fly by. She could use a full week off to get aggressively job hunting. 

So, back to the question, how to I define "as long as the other man is in the picture"? Does that mean "in her heart" And can Retrovaille hurt in any way under these conditions?


----------



## anchorwatch

No, it can't hurt. Believe me, your problems will be pale...


----------



## ButtPunch

No it can't hurt unless it is expensive. 

Read faster.

Codependency is the wife of an alcoholic who hides his car keys so her husband won't go to the bar. Its the guy who gets cheated on and thinks how can I fix this. Its the guy who gives and gives to please his wife and when it goes unappreciated he gets angry. 

Codependents need someone else to be happy and will sacrifice themselves to maintain the relationship.

OM is in her mind and the distance will only intensify their lost love. Its just a matter of time before they connect again. Yes I mean in her heart.

People want what they can't have and right now that is om. I'm sorry but you are only tolerated right now because of your kids and the money. You tolerating this abuse is even pushing her away. Women like men who don't take sh+t. That's why they subconsciously fitness test men all the time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chuck71

Too too many #3s....

Try a #1... for you

Even try a #2........ 

where the response of it means nothing


----------



## ButtPunch

Chuck71 said:


> Too too many #3s....
> 
> Try a #1... for you
> 
> Even try a #2........
> 
> where the response of it means nothing


Grid has no idea what this means Chuck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EleGirl

gridcom said:


> A few things about this post. 1- I guess I don't know what codependence means. I think I know what it means, but maybe not. I've looked up the defeinition when this started and the terms was bandied about. Before that, I never cared to know what it meant.
> 
> B Man, how many books can I read? I'm still 35% through the other book. I would love to read it all, but I only have so much time.
> 
> C How do you define the "as long as the other man is in the picture" exactly? Lets take her at her word. Lets say she see's him once a week, they work on different levels of a building, don't or very rarely interact. According to her, not a peep has been spoken among them. A few days ago we exchanged phones and I was allowed to look in her's. No funny business and I found out how you can tell when a text has been erased. I checked other texts. Found nothing. My wife has been consistent and not overly dramatic about telling me she is staying away from him. She does admit her feelings for him still linger. I'd imagine they're still sometimes intense. She can't admit that those feelings are a detriment to our reconciliation, but I think she's just basically either lying to me to relax me or she really is in fog. Anyway, being 70k in debt, we are not in position for her to quit this job cold turkey. She is looking, but can look harder. In her defense, she volunteers for too much crap and her days fly by. She could use a full week off to get aggressively job hunting.
> 
> So, back to the question, how to I define "as long as the other man is in the picture"? Does that mean "in her heart" And can Retrovaille hurt in any way under these conditions?


It sounds like she has ended the affair. My suggestion is to act as though she as. If you find out differently, then you switch to the 180. Doing the 180 if she has already given up the affair will back fire.

I almost always takes a WS a while to get over an affair partner. That's just a fact of life. One of the ways that they get over an affair partner is to rebuild their marriage. 

There is a tendency on TAM for a loud chorus of posters to push a person to file for a divorce and move on. This is mostly from people who did exactly that. Those who have had success in recovering a marriage from an affair tend to lead towards recovery. 

I think that going to the marriage weekend is a very good idea. That often jumpstarts recovery.

.


----------



## EleGirl

Co-depenency is basically when a person puts the needs of another ahead of their own needs. It's a sadly natural reaction to a bad situation. For example the wife of a drug addict will end up putting all her energy in trying to get her husband off the drugs and into rehab. She might end up covering for him at work and with family members so that he will not have a ruined reputation... after all she's going to get him into rehab. So she keeps covering for him, begging him, looking for ways to get him off the during.

And all the while, that she's putting so much effort and energy into him, she's lost herself. She stops taking care of her own mental health. She often also stops taking care of her health and other relationships. 

It's like she running around franticly, trying to stop the eventual self destruction of the husband. (Of course we can switch the genders in this.)


----------



## EleGirl

jld said:


> Dr. Harley said, _"People usually have affairs when their unmet emotional needs are met by their lovers."
> _
> That makes sense to me. I don't think that people in general will willingly accept to go without their needs met forever.
> 
> I think "good people" would be surprised what they might do if they were starving and had no legitimate way to get food, for example.


Yep, that quote is right off a page on the MB website. Here is the link. it might help Grid to read it.

What to Do with an Unfaithful Wife Letter #1


----------



## TeddieG

Okay, Grid, sure, I can think of a way Retrouvaille can help. It could make your wife get in touch with her feelings and be honest. After 7 years of watching my h, here's what I learned. 

You've said that your wife has said to you, despite the fact that you guys are having sex, that she doesn't love you. You have said you know she still has feelings for the OM. I applaud you for setting a kind of expiration date, or putting SOME confidence in, the possibility that Retrouvaille will clarify the situation for both of you. 

I've seen it said here on this forum, and I've read it MANY times on MLC forums, that you can't believe what they say. The number is variable. Sometimes you see that a post that you can't believe ANYthing they (the cheaters) say, and sometimes you see a post that says believe only 50% of what they say. You have to look at their actions, according to the general consensus of wisdom, and even then you can't believe all of that. 

Your wife isn't dismissing the divorce filing. There's action #1. She's having sex with you, there's action #2. Those two things are at odds. 

But one of the best pieces of advice I ever got was on the first MLC forum where I showed up after hearing my husband say, I love you but I'm not in love with you. The people responding had all heard those words before, had been on that forum long enough and some of them had lived through that horrific event to the point that they all knew the potential outcome for their marriage or relationship of those words. What one very honest and sincere and experienced person, who was a moderator on another forum for men in MLC and their spouses, said very succinctly was, that's his truth. He's told you the truth. That truth may change. You don't know if or when or how that will change, but that MAY change. But for now that's his truth. 

Yes, cheaters lie. I have been amused by the refrain I found since coming to TAM that if a cheater's lips are moving, they are lying. But here's what I can tell you after 7 years. 

My husband loves me and cares about me. Or at least he did for much of the last 7 years, and may still, I don't know, my boundaries are so tight and locked down since he filed for divorce that I have neither seen him nor spoken to him other than two or three texts almost a month ago. He doesn't like being denied an exit strategy, a Plan B. He doesn't want the consequences of his choices. That's one most definite truth. His actions, when he would come home and try to shuck the OW and get her behind him, said that he loved me and wanted to be home for much of the last 7 years. But since his surgery in August and he showed up at her place post-recovery after dumping her in June, and she gave him an ultimatum - marry me or this relationship is over - I don't know if he loves me or not. I know he doesn't live HIM. What I DO know about my h is that he wanted somebody to make the decision for him, and she gave him his marching orders and being the weak SOB he is, he "manned" up and gave her what she wanted. He wanted the situation resolved FOR him, and I wasn't complying by throwing him out and filing for divorce. I stepped back and watched and waited, as my new friends on that first forum advised, and I decided that this was HIS crisis, this was HIS self-created problem, and I was going to sit back and let him decide for himself and make his own damn decision about he wanted to end it and act on it, and end it. Nor was I going to chase him and give him the joy and satisfaction of two women fighting over him. 

This is why my response to jld has probably often been so visceral. My h's OW is in for the surprise of her life when my h bolts from all the pressure she's put him under, pressure he's let her put him under, pressure he's allowed himself to be subjected to, because he's given her all the control and has let her give him his marching orders, and one day he's going to wake up and see that he's only doing this because he needs somebody to tell him what to do. He's going to pretend, he's going to act, he's going to put on an Oscar-worthy performance of a commitment beyond parallel. But not forever. Peter Pan is going to rebel! No one can tell HIM what to do! But I'll be so far back in his rear view mirror that he won't even catch a shadow. If the situation were reversed, though, and I had told my h I love him but am not in love with him and I think I am in love with someone else, anyone telling him that he could win me back by doing x or y or z would be incorrect. 

Now, all this pending disaster for h and OW is fun to watch and anticipate, and it gives me fodder to hand out pseudo-wisdom on forums like this and others, but the reality is, he's done all this, he's behaved like this, he's let OW take control of his choices and decisions, and he's going to rue the day, but in the end, what is true in terms of MY relationship with him? What he originally said 7 years ago!!! He loves me, cares about me, thinks of me fondly, but he is NOT in love with me. And the truth is, that may change. He may change his mind. But so what? Whatever efforts he made to get home, to stay home, to end it with OW, whatever, the reality still remains that he loves me, cares about me, doesn't wish me harm, but he is NOT in love with me. IF HE WERE, THE OUTCOME WOULD HAVE BEEN DIFFERENT! 

Now, I always thought h and I would grow old together and graduate to companionate and vintage love, the kind of sweet love that folks get as they get older and their bodies slow down and they dance slowly in their living room to CD's of their favorite songs, and that life becomes a slow dance, a slowing-down dance, the kind of story where two dear elderly people die hours apart from each other. That's not happening. He loves me but he is NOT in love with me and he thinks, he believes, he convinces himself, he is in love with the OW (I know he's not for reasons going back 7 years ago and ongoing things, including the most recent songs he listens to, and a host of other things). He told me he wanted to fvck her but not support her financially or her kid either, and he had no intention of marrying her. But my man is nothing if not capable of letting some ***** convince him of what the stand-up thing to do is and what the price of admission is to her prized but well used and rode hard and put away wet pvssy. And he's going to pay it, because he THINKS he is in love with her. He's addicted to the drama and that's what he loves in his depressed state, but that's the subject for another thread or post. 

The point is, when cheaters are moving their lips, not EVERYTHING that comes out is a lie. The great art of getting through this situation is paradoxical. You have to listen for what is THEIR truth when you get the chance, and then you have to decide what you want to do and how you want to move forward in the event that MAY change. My h has expressed concern MANY times that he knows there are people who hang on to their marriages and their lost wandering spouses in cases like this, but he also knows they don't hold on forever. He's concerned I'll give up and quit, but I made it clear to him two years that the day I resign as his wife is the day he fires me from the job by filing for divorce. He did it. 

As I've said here before, there are external things that accelerated the process, and my h having aneurysm surgery and convincing himself he nearly died on the table, plus my mother's funeral, sent Peter Pan back to the OW, convinced that the replay of the romance and the drama would keep him alive. Whatever is going on with him, whatever motivates him, the combination of his FOO issues, his bi polar disorder, his Cluster Fvck B histrionic personality disorder, whatever, his actions STILL say what HE said 7 years ago, the week of bomb drop: I love you but I'm not in love with you. 

That's his truth. That may change. I'm no longer holding my breath.


----------



## bfree

I was really going to hold off on commenting again until after Retrouville but I think this needs to be said.

You know, in all the years I worked with both BS and WS and subsequently in my time here on TAM I have not once seen a case of successful reconciliation (5+ years) where the WS continued to have any contact with their AP. In fact the only one I heard rumors of was where the spouses worked at the same company as the OM and the BS was head of IT and could monitor his wife and her former lover both in work and out of work. Can anyone...ANYONE....here point out where this has worked because this is information that Grid needs to know. Grid I understand that your only point of reference is your situation and your only experience dealing with a wayward spouse is your wife. But a successful reconciliation with the former affair partners having any contact...? It's like a unicorn, it may exist but I've never seen it and would certainly need proof before I accept its existence.

You say that if you divorce she would have to get a different job anyway. If that's true then why do you seem to accept so easily that she cannot quit that job right now? Is your cumulative debt going to magically disappear post divorce? My advice is that a choice needs to be made now because not choosing is in actuality making a choice to divorce.


----------



## manfromlamancha

All of this is getting a bit too complicated for me. But I have a couple of immediate questions:

WHY IS SHE HAVING SEX WITH YOU WHEN SHE DOESN'T LOVE YOU?

And secondly:

WHY ARE YOU HAVING SEX WITH HER WHEN SHE LOVES ANOTHER MAN AND NOT YOU ?

Is she just trying to keep the peace at home ? This is a false peace. And it is degrading to you both.

Are you just taking advantage of the sex that is on offer ? This too is degrading behaviour.

And on another note, to explain why people say "as long as the POSOM (note I never drop the POS in mentioning the OM) is in the picture", this affair was never properly shut down with all the exposure, fire and brimstone etc that goes along with it. HR should be looking into it, the POSOM's wife or gf and family should know etc. Mrs Grid should have written and sent a NC letter. She should have changed jobs, and been active about getting a new one. All that happens is she promised not to talk or meet with him, while he sends her coded love messages in Spotify playlists and probably eye glances etc.

This is not a case of her suffering the loss of her POSOM. It is more of a case of biding her time until the time is right to leave. She knows he is waiting for her.

I really hope this Retrouvaille clears up things and not necessarily towards reconciliation. At this stage, I think that if she does not truly appreciate and want you, it is for the best that you guys split up asap!

Be strong and stay strong!


----------



## 3putt

EleGirl said:


> Yep, that quote is right off a page on the MB website. Here is the link. it might help Grid to read it.
> 
> What to Do with an Unfaithful Wife Letter #1


Yes, he does say that, but he has *never* stated that it's the fault of the BH that the WW allowed someone else to meet those needs. In fact, he has been adamant that while the BH *may* have contributed to the conditions that led to the affair, the affair itself is solely on the shoulders of the betrayer. 

It's all there unless you're only reading to find a segment that supports your position. That's done an awful lot around here in regards to MB.


----------



## Evinrude58

I'm not posting my thoughts relative to what I did and "worked".. I didn't want to divorce; I suspect most others don't either. I was forced to divorce because I had no choice. It was either divorce or out up with cheating. I don't know if grid will either. Which is why he needs to be prepared as far as financially to make an ageement while she has an amicable attitude. Whether a person likes to think that they can change another person's behavior by altering their own, or not. The most likely answer is not. So he should be prepared. 
She says she doesn't love him. I'm not sure if he can change that. Even if she changes her attitude. Just my opinion. 
I know grid says he's got it taken care of legally...... Until he has a signed agreement on file at the courthouse, he doesn't.

I do not advise staying in a loveless marriage when there are so many women out there dying for a decent man to love. It does SUCK having to break up the kids. It sucks for them and sucks for me. And having an ex is no fun at all. Definitely reasons to try.


----------



## TeddieG

Okay, one more post, and then I've got to go grade largely mediocre papers with a few stand out home runs, which keep me doing what I do. 

There's an old adage that when the student is ready, the teacher will come. Recently somewhere on TAM I posted that when h began to be invested in his health issues after a heart attack in the woods while fishing at some point in April, and almost NOT reaching an ER in time, he and I had a long talk. His scans and tests found the aneurysm, and he was staring surgery and mortality in the face, and he began to open up. We finally got around to talking about some serious things, and I told him that I was open to hearing about what I did or didn't do that led to his discontent, his sense that he wasn't getting what he needed, or at least some of his needs met, that led him to his choice. I told him I was ready to hear and ask for his forgiveness and he said there was nothing to forgive. For the last 7 years I have been waiting for him to tell me exactly what I did or didn't do, so I would no longer be in the dark about making it right. For the last 7 years I have been working on myself, addressing my issues that he was so involved in his depression and his penis that the inept urologist broke and denied us of a marriage and a sex life, and I was able to work past the fact that my h in his fog of grief said that if he loved me he wouldn't have ED (he never blamed the doctor or the failure of his own body as he aged; without grasping it or realizing it, deep down I knew that was a red flag and I probably didn't respond to it effectively and assertively in time to prevent the affair). I made myself the best, most loving, most attentive wife I could be, but I never let go of or turned loose of myself; I never quit doing what I do, in terms of profession or calling. I realized that while he was on his sojourn with the OW, I had stopped adapting to his constantly unhappy bi polar Cluster Fvck B personality disorder to try to make him happy, and I got in touch with me again and what I do and who I am. In the recesses of my mind, I realized that I was getting the passion back for what I was doing when he met me and fell in love with me. When he said there was nothing to forgive, I felt vindicated by my observation that his physical issues and his inept doctor had left me with a grieving hurting husband and left me in over my head and helpless, powerless, to help, and I had stepped back to give him space while affirming him and supporting him . . . until he said his ED was my fault. After some soul searching recently, I realized that I lost respect for him when he transferred the responsibility to deal with his own health issues and with the damage the doctor did to him, to me. Perhaps I somehow communicated that without ever saying it, and that led to his affair, but I don't think so. He really just wanted a woman who could fix his penis (and could tolerate his Viagra pills). I never ever thought I would end up with a man who wouldn't fight aging gracefully but rather accept and gracefully resist aging insofar as possible, with dignity. As my h began to address his health issues, I was excited and pleased and also realized that I had watched and hoped that if the day came and he did that, his mental health might improve. For me after that conversation in April, there was hope, and I was looking forward to observing his mental state to see if THAT go better too. 

After his surgery for the aneurysm and his conviction that he nearly died on the table, his mental health deteriorated quickly rather than getting better. But I still held on to the fact that while he was sick and when he was facing surgery, he wanted to be with me and wanted me with him in the hospital; I wore the same damn dress for 36 hours because what was supposed to be an early morning surgery and home that night or the next day was a long and drawn out recovery, with a whole host of issues and a cardiac event in the wee hours of the morning. But we were going to be okay; he wanted to be with me and there was nothing he had to forgive me for. I waited 7 years to hear that. 

But on another thread here recently someone was posting about leaving his wife. He told her he was leaving, wanted a divorce, and she asked what she had done wrong, what she should have known or addressed, or what she could do (apparently he like my h had never raised any issues or expressed any discontent) and he said nothing. What he told us is that she just was who she was and that wasn't good enough. She couldn't change herself enough, make herself different enough, to stop him from leaving. She couldn't be somebody she wasn't. 

For the sake of my marriage I was willing to work on me and be the best I could be, but I also realized in his absence that I relished being me again. The paradox of this journey is that while you're getting better, addressing the issues in the marriage, in fact issues that the unhealthy state of the marriage or the person you were in it with, and whose contribution or lack thereof may have caused the marriage to be unhealthy, it is important not to change YOU, not to change the quintessential person you are, not to abandon the essential Gridcom, and if in the process of being the best you that you're capable of being, that's still not attractive to your spouse, if being you just isn't good enough, then so be it. 

There are people who say that their spouse's affair was the best thing that ever happened to them because they got themselves back. A recent article on Huffington Post about cheating had cheaters saying their affairs saved their lives because they got themselves back. I think my h pretended to be a stand up guy and really is the ******* and thug that fits right in with all the other ******** and thugs he lives with. And if that makes him happy, then so be it! If he let his guard down when he found the ******* wh*re white trash looking for a guy, any guy, with a big retirement check, since she lives in the shadow of the air force base for a reason, and he found himself, finally, then good for him. Of course I miss him and grieve and wonder what happened that the guy I thought I married didn't really exist, but there's only so much of me I can change. 

Make your changes, be the best you that you're capable of being; and no one here has suggested that you shouldn't work on yourself, or improve yourself, or address the issues you felt contributed to your wife's unhappiness. But don't own that she cheated. That's on her. The advice from most corners to work on yourself and be better was given because it was the right thing to do for you, to possibly save your marriage, but not for any ulterior motive with a specific outcome in mind other than it was the right thing to do. But do it for you. You're going to need everything the real you has got to get you through what's still to come, whatever that is.


----------



## ButtPunch

EleGirl said:


> It sounds like she has ended the affair. My suggestion is to act as though she as.
> 
> Her actions say nothing of the sort. At best she is fence sitting.
> 
> I almost always takes a WS a while to get over an affair partner. That's just a fact of life. One of the ways that they get over an affair partner is to rebuild their marriage.
> 
> There is a tendency on TAM for a loud chorus of posters to push a person to file for a divorce and move on. This is mostly from people who did exactly that. Those who have had success in recovering a marriage from an affair tend to lead towards recovery.
> 
> I disagree with this over generalization. She is fence sitting and Grid is in Limbo. Most the posters here are trying to end the limbo. Filing for divorce and getting divorced are two different things. I filed for divorce on my WW but here I am still married.
> 
> I think that going to the marriage weekend is a very good idea. That often jumpstarts recovery.
> 
> .


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Grid - good luck. When I got my medical diagnosis - not a good one - I went through various stages of grief but didn't realize at the time that was the reason for my thoughts and actions. I feel bad for my wife and family for having lived with that.

But...

Here I am. Much more clarity. And little tolerance for BS, lies, agendas...

Your wife is playing a game. It's a sh*tty game. It f**ks with your emotions.

Frankly I don't give a sh+t about her issues. They are her small, tiny, insignificant, selfish, poor-me issues. You shouldn't be burdened with them.

Look in the mirror and ask yourself - if I got a terminal diagnosis today how would I spend the rest of my time?

I guarantee you the answer would NOT be worrying about Mrs Grids self pitying issues.

Live your life.

If Mrs. Grid decides she wants to be part of your life, she can crawl back into it and beg for forgiveness.

Until then seek happiness and fulfillment and remove toxic people from your life.

Good luck. I don't give a f what you acted like you don't deserve this.


----------



## Chuck71

ButtPunch said:


> Grid has no idea what this means Chuck.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


In DeMello's Awareness.... he states a #1 as doing / buying something for yourself.... a new shirt, tool set.

A #2 is doing something for others and expecting nothing in return... charity, volunteering.

A #3 is when you do something for someone and expect a reaction... when you do not get the reaction one desired, 

you get angry and upset. Say you buy your spouse a necklace and that person's response doesn't seem to

"match what you were expecting" and you throw a fit.

That is why a #3 is very unhealthy. You place your well-being and happiness in the hands of others.

Real life example.... guy (former TAMer) buys his g/f a sweater for Christmas. She gets upset.... the sweater

was one size too small. She bemoans he wants her to lose weight, this was why it is too small.

He starts to apologize immediately...... 

Grid.... Awareness is a spiritual essay. It is widely used in religious circles.

Below is a PDF link to Awareness. I also want to add a couple links.... they're from TAM.... War Stories and The

Weeds of Codependence. 

http://www.arvindguptatoys.com/arvindgupta/tonyawareness.pdf

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-through-divorce-separation/69908-war-stories.html


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-through-divorce-separation/155305-weeds-codependence.html


----------



## LongWalk

This is one of the best threads ever on TAM, thanks to Grid's tough openminded attitude. He is going to get the ideas down so well that he'll be able to coach others well should he so choose.

Threestrikes, I think it was, wrote about cheating in games. One my best friends cheated at Monopoly. He just took money out of the bank when I wasn't looking. That was the end of our friendship. His father was a realtor. Go figure.

Retrouvaille can't hurt because you are not going believing that an exorcist is going to put a stake in the heart of affair. Only your wife can do that.

Your wife is thinking things over. She may be asking herself questions such as:

1) "Folks think I am a slvtty for cheating with OM. Well, if I go to OM for love, it's not slvtty. It will cleanse my sin while devlivering happiness."

2) "It could be that OM is not going to make me happy because he lacks money and has to be step dad, can he do it? He swears his love for me extends to my daughters but does it?"

3) "Having sex with Grid is weird, but it's making him easier to live with. How am I going to make this up to OM?"

4) "Having sex with Grid has made me feel closer to him but going to work and seeing the door OM goes through and his car in parking lot are helping me to keep Grid blocked in jail for three turns."

5) "Having sex with Grid feels like this, having sex with OM feels like THAT!"

And so on. In short, you can't know what sort of stuff is flying through her brain right now.

One key consideration: you are no longer to going to settle for a co-dependent relationship. If your wife is not going to work on herself, you are out. Retrouvaille is a place that you can see what sort of effort she is going to make.


----------



## Chuck71

Grid... when I was a young lad of ten, my parents decided it was time for me to have a dog.

He was a black Lab, where I went, he went. We played fetch from my elementary years to college.

He was "supposed" to be at my wedding, my retirement party, etc... of course far fetched wishful thinking.

He had a growth near his windpipe and suffered from seizures. He had the old classification "grand mal" ones.

He would urinate where ever he was... didn't mean to. He was my comrade... I cleaned up after him.

One day he began to cough up blood.... vet said the growth will block his windpipe and he will suffocate. 

He was put to sleep. The night before... we played fetch one time. He could barely move, I bounced ball right

to him. He loved PB n J sandwiches... I made him three. If you left a plate unattended with PB n J,

they would be gone when you returned, found this out several times.

I never conceived the notion... you're going to miss this dog. I knew I would miss him but "grieve" miss him. 

I missed him more after he was gone. Okay Chuck... this has what to do with me?

Grid..... no one can miss you... until you are gone. In your case... simple removing yourself from

the dual day-to-day functions and beginning to trek out your life path. Your path will be charted.

as U2 stated in 1987, "With or Without You." 

BTW.... love the avatar... Honeymooners is a classic. Whoever colorized them should be locked in

a room and forced to listen to Ethel Merman records.


----------



## LongWalk

Grid,

You can look at this horrible experience as a turning point in your life. Your wife showed you who she was capable of being – a cheating teenage girl. You learned about your POS tendencies. You have owned up to your need to be a better person. Your wife knows that you didn't betray her and are even willing to forgive her. If she doesn't jump at the opportunity, then you will move on without her. Not in hate or bitterness. You'll not be stuck in that. You're too smart. That is why a lot of us are following your thread. We get to witness success. 

No one wishes your wife ill. Hope she smells the coffee before it goes cold. Life is goes on.


----------



## Chaparral

My vote goes for one of the worse threads I have seen here. The path to reconcilliation has been paved yearscago on this and other sites. That path has not been followed here, especially the cardinal rule of no contact.

This thread is a step below false reconcilliation. That's the bad news. The good news is Grid deserves a much better partner and this route will get him one all though slower than necessary.

Experts say about 30 to 35% of marriages survive infidelity. 80% that divorce wish they had saved the marriage. Another stat is that 45% of marriages that the husband cheats are reconciled. That makes it look like only about 15% of marriages are saved when the wife cheats. Is that because the wife is totally done, the husbands refuse to live with a cheater or both?

In any case, the path to save a marriage has not been followed here and frankly, I see no hope. Like I said before, that's not necessarily bad. Mrs. Grid has done nothing to earn reconcilliation. God help her if she gets what she deserves.


----------



## happyman64

Chaparral said:


> My vote goes for one of the worse threads I have seen here. The path to reconcilliation has been paved yearscago on this and other sites. That path has not been followed here, especially the cardinal rule of no contact.
> 
> This thread is a step below false reconcilliation. That's the bad news. The good news is Grid deserves a much better partner and this route will get him one all though slower than necessary.
> 
> Experts say about 30 to 35% of marriages survive infidelity. 80% that divorce wish they had saved the marriage. Another stat is that 45% of marriages that the husband cheats are reconciled. That makes it look like only about 15% of marriages are saved when the wife cheats. Is that because the wife is totally done, the husbands refuse to live with a cheater or both?
> 
> In any case, the path to save a marriage has not been followed here and frankly, I see no hope. Like I said before, that's not necessarily bad. Mrs. Grid has done nothing to earn reconcilliation. God help her if she gets what she deserves.


If Grid continues this path and works on his own issues Mrs Grid will get exactly what she deserves whether they R or D.

Because after the 2 month period is over I truly believe Grid will hold her feet to the fire no matter what direction their marriage goes in.

Now I am going to go out, rake some leaves and enjoy their beauty before the rain comes in.

You should all go outside and do the same.

Drag your kids with you away from those TV's or cell phones. :grin2:

HM


----------



## turnera

EleGirl said:


> Co-depenency is basically when a person puts the needs of another ahead of their own needs.


It's also when a person feels they need that other person, in order to be valuable, themselves. They mentally can't do what they need themselves because they can't mentally even consider the thought of not being with that other person. So it keeps them from making the strong decisions their situation might need.


----------



## Pluto2

Chuck71 said:


> forced to listen to Ethel Merman records.


LOL. Thanks Chuck71


----------



## turnera

I'm guessing she's not really looking that hard for a new job because she knows if she changes jobs, she'll never get to see OM again.


----------



## LongWalk

Grid is not the sort to write a blank check "pay to order of cheating wife" without a date. 

Although jld writes about the husband's responsibility to lead, is she were PM'g Mrs Grid, I have no doubt she'd be pressing her to improve her attitude towards Grid and not urging her get the alimony in place.

In fact if Mrs Grid starts pushing for alimony, Grid will check out in short notice.


----------



## LongWalk

I know what jld said before. The point is that as Grid slips away, I believe she will try to push her towards him, in spite of her putting the blame on him for "not meeting her needs."

Jld actually believes Grid is not that bad, otherwise why would she be engaged?


----------



## TeddieG

Chuck71 said:


> ButtPunch said:
> 
> 
> 
> IF..... they do push ahead with D... she could keep her job.
> 
> Wait... she does not make enough there.
> 
> Enter alimony.....
> 
> 
> 
> No, see, I think we're getting somewhere now. Grid wants Mrs. Grid to quit her job, so what does she do? She files for divorce. It is kind of like she's making a point about what she's choosing . . .
> 
> And yeah, since cheaters rationalize everything else, she may be able to rationalize that in divorce she could get enough child support and this and that and the other thing to keep the job AND the OM.
> But we'll see what Retrouvaille produces.
Click to expand...


----------



## Anon Pink

gridcom said:


> The only person I am going to ask to leave the thread is the next person who asks me if I want them to leave the thread
> 
> I am reading all of this. It's frustrating. Right now, here's where we are at
> 
> - we are going to Retrouvaille and my wife is into going. She wants to go
> 
> Thats encouraging. Many of the couple's that attended during our weekend were clearly made up of a spouse who was only humoring the other.
> 
> - When asked if she wants to fix her marriage she says she wants to want to fix it and has an open mind
> 
> Good enough. An open mind and honesty are good starts.
> 
> - We've been having sex always a positive in my book!
> - I have not been up her a$$ again, always a positive.
> - I have not been texting incessantly nor e-mailing links. I have been working, watching baseball, and taking things day by day.
> - My wife does not love me and she admits that to be true Love can enter when she's no so pissed off at you anymore.
> - She hasn't seen the OM except at work. Otherwise, believe that is truth
> - She still has feelings for him
> - She believes love is an action and not something that comes and hits you in the face. That said, we disagree on if she is taking action She's right, love is an action, but it's also a decision sometimes. Sometimes we decide to love because it's what we want and then love organically happens provided he's not being a d!ck and up my ass all day!
> - I am taking jld's approach of being kind and trying to be more senstive, listening more, doing more around the house, etc and at the same time I am focusing on myself and a life without my wife
> - Our kids got their school pictures yesterday and my wife posted both of them on Facebook. I told her I looked at them and my first thought was "I hate my wife for what she's done" No need to mince words, ever.
> 
> A lot of the future of this relationship hinges on the next 2 months. There is no need for people to attack jld and there is no need for all the back and forth. I don't agree with everything she says. I am not under her spell. I think she understands that when I was an a$$hole at times in my marriage, I was a REAL m&therf&cking s&onofab*tch a$$hole. That is real. That really happened.
> 
> My wife cheated. It was wrong. Everybody in her life has a lower opinion of her now because of it except for a few, and she has to live with that. She is NOT some weakling looking for me to lead. I have told her how truly sorry I am and was emphatically sincere about it (because I am). That said, I cannot do that anymore. Those fake conversations jld proposes I have, I HAVE had already. What jld is asking me to do, I am doing currently. I am not kissing a$$ though. Sometimes, I get angry for no reason at all and I'm not ashamed of it.
> 
> My wife is stubborn to a fault. It is the biggest turn off about her and always has been. We talked about it immediately after we started dating and while I have lost my cool to a way over the top degree, it's frustrating to live with that stuff


Then it would be best to learn to deal with stubborn people in ways that don't trigger them to dig in their heels. For examples of this read on...



> Case in point/excellent example: She wants to stay in her "field" if she is going to switch jobs. *I call up three places I know in her field (because we are kinda/sorta in the same field) and ask them to consider her if there are any openings. * Place 1 offers an interview right away and while they dont have any openings, they meet and they like her and "we'll see what happens down the road". Place 2 same thing, except they are actually talking about her coming to work there very soon (at least part time). Place 3 responds and says "We dont have any openings now, but send a resume and we'll get in contact if anything opens up"


Did she ask you to do this for her or was this your idea? Because this can be seen as over bearing and controlling. While other women might see this as endearingly considerate. Women are different but the way you describe your wife I'm thinking she sees it as over bearing and controlling.



> She never sends the resume to Place 3. Now, keep in mind, the places in her line of work are not plentiful within a 25 mile radius of our house. You can maybe count on two hands the places that would fit her exact skills, and Place 3 has to rank 3rd and maybe 2nd of all of those places. She won't send the resume. I tell her "Why not send the resume. What's the problem? They know me. Why not? It takes 2 minutes to respond to the e-mail, with me on copy, and attach the resume" She wont do it. They won't give her an interview so therefore they arent worth the two minutes to send the resume. This is terribly frustrating to me. OF COURSE you send the freakin' resume, are you crazy? It's a great place. Keep yourself fresh for the place. But, the more I tell her that she is being a child by not sending the resume, the deeper she digs in and just simply wont send it
> 
> This is the kind of stubborn I've been dealing with for years and years.
> 
> Ah, that felt good.
> 
> See ya!



Dude, hands off the resume issue! So what if she is being a child! It's not your place to call business and ask them to hire your wife! That's treating her like a child. Then brow beating her when she didn't do it your way was controlling.

Didn't you claim earlier that you haven't been up her ass lately?


----------



## Anon Pink

gridcom said:


> I've read a ton about Retrouvaille in the last day. A part of me questions if we should even bother going. My wife has feelings for another man, what's the point. But, at the same time, I ask how can it hurt?
> 
> Answer is yes, I suppose



Didn't you also say your wife was stubborn and can't admit she is wrong and never apologizes?

Sooooooo you want her to admit she's wrong, right? 

And you want her to not have feelings for the other man right?

But your wife is stubborn and can't admit when she's wrong even if she probably does know she was wrong she just can't admit to it, right?

Ignore the issue entirely. You can't demand love from her. You can't demand she grow up, or stop being stubborn. Every time you try to push she pushes right back. So stop pushing!


I noticed MEM already talked about Retrouvaille and giving up. And he reminded you about your budget. 

Instead of trying to control things you shouldn't work on controlling things you should, like the budget.


----------



## LongWalk

My impression is that Grid posts, reads the reactions and learns. He makes mistakes but who doesn't.

AnonPink's point about not trying to control her job situation by helping her search for work is a good one. She has to make the decision to leave the job with OM. That is something that she needs to realize.

The more Grid detaches, the greater the likelihood his wife will reconsider her responsibility. If Grid is all in no matter what, she doesn't need to shape up. But he must working the co-dependent relationship concept around in his mind.


----------



## Pluto2

Grid, IMHO, ignoring issues doesn't make them go away, or change any of the dynamics that caused it to become an issue. Its usually referred to as rugsweeping. If you have the stomach for it read http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/79609-successful-rugsweep.html


----------



## farsidejunky

LongWalk said:


> My impression is that Grid posts, reads the reactions and learns. He makes mistakes but who doesn't.
> 
> AnonPink's point about not trying to control her job situation by helping her search for work is a good one. She has to make the decision to leave the job with OM. That is something that she needs to realize.
> 
> The more Grid detaches, the greater the likelihood his wife will reconsider her responsibility. If Grid is all in no matter what, she doesn't need to shape up. But he must working the co-dependent relationship concept around in his mind.


This.

She has no need to change because you are still doing all of the work, Grid.

This is really just one big power struggle. Both of you are pulling on one end of the rope while insisting each other is somehow responsible for the rope not going either direction.

Don't you see she needs you to keep pulling so she can continue to resist? Take away her ability to make this your problem and your fault.

Drop the rope and walk away, Grid.


----------



## Anon Pink

Grid,

I think the standard TAMWay is just not a one size fits all marriage improvement plan. Rug sweeping is certainly detrimental to a healthy relationship. Your situation is unique in that the tug of war relationship style means confronting issues has to be applied judiciously. 

Ideally you want your wife to recognize her affair was very wrong, to realize the OM is not someone who had her best interests at heart, and to completely distance herself from the OM both emotionally and physically.

But when you overlay those goals on top of the tug of war dynamic, following the TAMWay will take you further from those goals.

You've been overbearing, condescending, controlling and probably just as stubborn as your wife. The message she hears from this treatment is that you don't respect her, don't think she is competent, think she's an idiot and a child. She always has to give in to him to keep the peace. 

So what does other man make her feel? 

I bet she felt respected because he listened to her without disrespectful judgement. 
I bet she felt competent because he allowed her to call the shots often enough that she got to see her own ideas in play.
I bet she felt admired because he praised her way of handling things instead of insisting she do things his way.
In short he built her up instead of tearing her down.

I think it's important for you to accept that no amount of confrontation is going to negate the way he made her feel and insisting she recognize her feelings as illusion is more of the same as far as she is concerned. What she thinks and feels doesn't matter because you're always right.

This is why I think dropping the subject of her affair, for right now, is the only way to bring her back to being attached to you. Once she is attached to you again, then you two can slowly deal with the affair.


----------



## Chaparral

Have you talked to a real estate agent yet to get a feel for pricing and the local sales environment? get/be prepared


----------



## bfree

Anon Pink said:


> Grid,
> 
> I think the standard TAMWay is just not a one size fits all marriage improvement plan. Rug sweeping is certainly detrimental to a healthy relationship. Your situation is unique in that the tug of war relationship style means confronting issues has to be applied judiciously.
> 
> Ideally you want your wife to recognize her affair was very wrong, to realize the OM is not someone who had her best interests at heart, and to completely distance herself from the OM both emotionally and physically.
> 
> But when you overlay those goals on top of the tug of war dynamic, following the TAMWay will take you further from those goals.
> 
> You've been overbearing, condescending, controlling and probably just as stubborn as your wife. The message she hears from this treatment is that you don't respect her, don't think she is competent, think she's an idiot and a child. She always has to give in to him to keep the peace.
> 
> So what does other man make her feel?
> 
> I bet she felt respected because he listened to her without disrespectful judgement.
> I bet she felt competent because he allowed her to call the shots often enough that she got to see her own ideas in play.
> I bet she felt admired because he praised her way of handling things instead of insisting she do things his way.
> In short he built her up instead of tearing her down.
> 
> I think it's important for you to accept that no amount of confrontation is going to negate the way he made her feel and insisting she recognize her feelings as illusion is more of the same as far as she is concerned. What she thinks and feels doesn't matter because you're always right.
> 
> This is why I think dropping the subject of her affair, for right now, is the only way to bring her back to being attached to you. Once she is attached to you again, then you two can slowly deal with the affair.


Yes! This is exactly what B1 did. He let EI see his pain but he did not badger or criticize her for her affair. He did allow her to feel the consequences of her actions but he didn't push them onto her. EI knew she no longer loved him but she also felt compassion for the pain she caused him. Part of that compassion was her instituting no contact with her affair partner. If grid and Mrs grid can ever get to that point I think they have a real chance at a successful reconciliation.


----------



## Anon Pink

bfree said:


> Yes! This is exactly what B1 did. He let EI see his pain but he did not badger or criticize her for her affair. He did allow her to feel the consequences of her actions but he didn't push them onto her. EI knew she no longer loved him but she also felt compassion for the pain she caused him. Part of that compassion was her instituting no contact with her affair partner. If grid and Mrs grid can ever get to that point I think they have a real chance at a successful reconciliation.


Right. In some situations the ultimatum and hard boundary line is necessary, but not in all and not in grid's sitch.

They both have dysfunctional relationship methods and they both have to own their sides of the street to clean up before reconciling is even an option. It's pointless to throw the affair out as ammunition on who has trespassed the worst if they each fail to clean up their side of the street.


----------



## gridcom

Anon Pink said:


> Grid,
> 
> I think the standard TAMWay is just not a one size fits all marriage improvement plan. Rug sweeping is certainly detrimental to a healthy relationship. Your situation is unique in that the tug of war relationship style means confronting issues has to be applied judiciously.
> 
> Ideally you want your wife to recognize her affair was very wrong, to realize the OM is not someone who had her best interests at heart, and to completely distance herself from the OM both emotionally and physically.
> 
> But when you overlay those goals on top of the tug of war dynamic, following the TAMWay will take you further from those goals.
> 
> You've been overbearing, condescending, controlling and probably just as stubborn as your wife. The message she hears from this treatment is that you don't respect her, don't think she is competent, think she's an idiot and a child. She always has to give in to him to keep the peace.
> 
> So what does other man make her feel?
> 
> I bet she felt respected because he listened to her without disrespectful judgement.
> I bet she felt competent because he allowed her to call the shots often enough that she got to see her own ideas in play.
> I bet she felt admired because he praised her way of handling things instead of insisting she do things his way.
> In short he built her up instead of tearing her down.
> 
> I think it's important for you to accept that no amount of confrontation is going to negate the way he made her feel and insisting she recognize her feelings as illusion is more of the same as far as she is concerned. What she thinks and feels doesn't matter because you're always right.
> 
> This is why I think dropping the subject of her affair, for right now, is the only way to bring her back to being attached to you. Once she is attached to you again, then you two can slowly deal with the affair.


very well said.


----------



## LongWalk

And from this one can infer that OM is not a complete jerk. To assume that all affair partners are POS is a prejudice. To dismiss the guy who knew how to ply your wife with music as a insensitive doesn't ring true. His shortcomings may not be known but Grid's wife may be prepared to accept OM's shortcomings. To a person in love eccentricities can be charming.


----------



## Evinrude58

So the message to grid is--/- "ideally, she would do x and feel x for grid."
With a big freaking emphasis on "ideally." That's laughable. 

Grid, 
For your own good, please, follow whatever course you want to follow on attempting reconciliation with your wife. I have no idea what will work, only what won't work. BUT. I wish there was some way for you to go ahead and settle the finances and custody thing with your wife and get it in writing and signed. That is the most important thing right now. Your security with your kids and financial future. 
You DONT have to divorce if this is taken care of. But if you give her time, and she decides to divorce you, I can GUARANTEE you will regret it in a very bad way because she will NOT do what she says with alimony, etc, at that point. Ignore this at your own peril. Men who have been through what you're going through will tell you what they say and what they do are polar opposites. You can get over the divorce if that should happen. But you may never recover from not seeing your kids and paying her for behavior you will think is appalling. 
Think long and hard about how good your wife's word has been. Then think about whether you should get an agreement in place should you divorce. And you should tell her that you don't want a divorce and it's just for your own security, which is 100% true. If she is really thinking at all of you, she will unserstand and you can go to work rebuilding your marriage without her holding an axe over your head.


----------



## gridcom

Pluto2 said:


> Grid, IMHO, ignoring issues doesn't make them go away, or change any of the dynamics that caused it to become an issue. Its usually referred to as rugsweeping. If you have the stomach for it read http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/79609-successful-rugsweep.html


That was brutal. I don't know what to say. Feel sad for the guy, even in his supposed happiness. It just reinforces to me that my wife's affair was inexcusable and selfish beyond any shadow of a doubt. It's *life changing* for everyone, no matter what the outcome.


----------



## manfromlamancha

Anon Pink said:


> Grid,
> 
> I think the standard TAMWay is just not a one size fits all marriage improvement plan. Rug sweeping is certainly detrimental to a healthy relationship. Your situation is unique in that the tug of war relationship style means confronting issues has to be applied judiciously.
> 
> Ideally you want your wife to recognize her affair was very wrong, to realize the OM is not someone who had her best interests at heart, and to completely distance herself from the OM both emotionally and physically.
> 
> But when you overlay those goals on top of the tug of war dynamic, following the TAMWay will take you further from those goals.
> 
> *You've been overbearing, condescending, controlling and probably just as stubborn as your wife. The message she hears from this treatment is that you don't respect her, don't think she is competent, think she's an idiot and a child. She always has to give in to him to keep the peace. *
> 
> So what does other man make her feel?
> 
> I bet she felt respected because he listened to her without disrespectful judgement.
> I bet she felt competent because he allowed her to call the shots often enough that she got to see her own ideas in play.
> I bet she felt admired because he praised her way of handling things instead of insisting she do things his way.
> In short he built her up instead of tearing her down.
> 
> I think it's important for you to accept that no amount of confrontation is going to negate the way he made her feel and insisting she recognize her feelings as illusion is more of the same as far as she is concerned. What she thinks and feels doesn't matter because you're always right.
> 
> This is why I think dropping the subject of her affair, for right now, is the only way to bring her back to being attached to you. Once she is attached to you again, then you two can slowly deal with the affair.


Where is this coming from? I didn't get this from any previous posts.

And any OM who hits on another man's wife (especially when the marriage is troubled) is a POS and a JERK (nothing to with prejudice).


----------



## tom67

manfromlamancha said:


> Where is this coming from? I didn't get this from any previous posts.
> 
> And any OM who hits on another man's wife (especially when the marriage is troubled) is a POS and a JERK (nothing to with prejudice).


We need some inspiration Man
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KufFjcWOUQ


----------



## Anon Pink

manfromlamancha said:


> Where is this coming from? I didn't get this from any previous posts.
> 
> And any OM who hits on another man's wife (especially when the marriage is troubled) is a POS and a JERK (nothing to with prejudice).


We are reading the same thread right? Grid has admitted to being slightly emotionally abusive. How does someone act when they are slightly emotional abusive? Grid has even outlined an example of his over bearing and controlling techniques when he talked about helping his wife find a job. He has also admitted to sometimes pushing her to talk or pushing the issue, or pushing his POV. Not sure how you missed that.

I don't think anyone here is going to nominate the OM for any service awards. the point I was trying to make was what his wife might be getting from the OM that she isn't getting from him. Of course that was pure speculation based on what he has written about himself, what his wife has said, and being a woman myself who spent far too long being far too angry at a far too distant husband.

How do you know the relationship was pursued by the OM and not grid's wife? Just saying...


----------



## Evinrude58

Grid admits to being a real jerk once in a while in his marriage, and therefore has been all these things to her in some people's eyes. The fact that they are 70k in debt and she's hanging on for dear life to a part-time job where the OM works speaks volumes about her end of this marriage. Has anyone but me ever thought that once in a while his wife had a negative conversation coming? She has one coming from Grid right now! Would she be receptive? Or place blame elsewhere?


----------



## Pluto2

gridcom said:


> That was brutal. I don't know what to say. Feel sad for the guy, even in his supposed happiness. It just reinforces to me that my wife's affair was inexcusable and selfish beyond any shadow of a doubt. It's *life changing* for everyone, no matter what the outcome.


Grid, I've been on TAM for a couple of years. and I feel you deserve an apology. Your thread has been the site of a fight with old TAM politics with different people with different agendas and its shameful. Its happened in the past, and will likely happen again. You didn't come here for any of that-and you don't deserve it. You came here for help. You have the patience of a saint for sticking with this place.


Handle your issues how you see fit. I wish you peace.


----------



## manfromlamancha

Anon Pink said:


> We are reading the same thread right? *Grid has admitted to being slightly emotionally abusive. How does someone act when they are slightly emotional abusive?* Grid has even outlined an example of his over bearing and controlling techniques when he talked about helping his wife find a job. He has also admitted to sometimes pushing her to talk or pushing the issue, or pushing his POV. Not sure how you missed that.
> 
> Grid has said quite the opposite - he hasn't done any thing over the top - you even say "slightly" abusive and then go into how that led to her spreading her legs for the POS!
> 
> I don't think anyone here is going to nominate the OM for any service awards. *the point I was trying to make was what his wife might be getting from the OM that she isn't getting from him.*
> 
> Yep - strange d!ck.
> 
> *Of course that was pure speculation based on what he has written about himself, what his wife has said, and being a woman myself who spent far too long being far too angry at a far too distant husband.*
> 
> Yep, speculation and projection - hence my question.
> 
> *How do you know the relationship was pursued by the OM and not grid's wife?* Just saying...


I am almost sure that she pursued him too - doesn't make him any less of a POS. So we agree that they were both POS's - no argument there.


----------



## manfromlamancha

tom67 said:


> We need some inspiration Man
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KufFjcWOUQ


Classic! Always playing in the background in my head!:smile2:


----------



## Anon Pink

manfromlamancha said:


> I am almost sure that she pursued him too - doesn't make him any less of a POS. So we agree that they were both POS's - no argument there.


I'm not going to waste a second combing through this thread so I can quote grid when he admits to being "slightly abusive. " those are his words, not mine. He's been asked several times to go into more detail about that-by you guys seem to think being a BH is the same as being beatified by the pope- but he has avoided answering. But in one of his posts that I quoted he outlined an issue and how he dealt with is...over bearing and controlling something that doesn't belong to him. In that same post Grid claimed he hadn't been up her ass lately and I called him out on that.

See once again the TAMWay is to completely ignore the sh!tty behavior of the BS and to ATTACK anyone who DARES to question the sainting of said BS.


----------



## Evinrude58

Anon Pink said:


> I'm not going to waste a second combing through this thread so I can quote grid when he admits to being "slightly abusive. " those are his words, not mine. He's been asked several times to go into more detail about that-by you guys seem to think being a BH is the same as being beatified by the pope- but he has avoided answering. But in one of his posts that I quoted he outlined an issue and how he dealt with is...over bearing and controlling something that doesn't belong to him. In that same post Grid claimed he hadn't been up her ass lately and I called him out on that.
> 
> See once again the TAMWay is to completely ignore the sh!tty behavior of the BS and to ATTACK anyone who DARES to question the sainting of said BS.


I disagree. I think most people feel that the WW is the one that is making him feel like he was so horrible, because she needs him to be in order to justify her actions in her own mind. I'm sure he was a pain in the arse many times, and I'm also sure that she was as well. 
She chose to dump him in her mind and go full speed ahead with another man. Had she told him to shape up, and fix whatever it was he was messing up with or else and THEN when he did not,serve him with divorce papers, nobody could say a word. I believe she chose the OM for lots of reasons that were very selfish, and that whatever negatives in her mind on Grid's part were magnified by her desire to maker her decision easier. Kind of like when a kid vilifies their parents to justify them doing something they know they shouldn't. And she's making Grid pay for her adultery, and I think that's wrong.


----------



## ButtPunch

Anon Pink said:


> I'm not going to waste a second combing through this thread so I can quote grid when he admits to being "slightly abusive. " those are his words, not mine. He's been asked several times to go into more detail about that-by you guys seem to think being a BH is the same as being beatified by the pope- but he has avoided answering. But in one of his posts that I quoted he outlined an issue and how he dealt with is...over bearing and controlling something that doesn't belong to him. In that same post Grid claimed he hadn't been up her ass lately and I called him out on that.
> 
> See once again the TAMWay is to completely ignore the sh!tty behavior of the BS and to ATTACK anyone who DARES to question the sainting of said BS.


You obviously haven't kept up with this thread. So educate yourself before posting this drivel.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Keepin-my-head-up

Evinrude58 said:


> So the message to grid is--/- "ideally, she would do x and feel x for grid."
> With a big freaking emphasis on "ideally." That's laughable.
> 
> Grid,
> For your own good, please, follow whatever course you want to follow on attempting reconciliation with your wife. I have no idea what will work, only what won't work. BUT. I wish there was some way for you to go ahead and settle the finances and custody thing with your wife and get it in writing and signed. That is the most important thing right now. Your security with your kids and financial future.
> You DONT have to divorce if this is taken care of. But if you give her time, and she decides to divorce you, I can GUARANTEE you will regret it in a very bad way because she will NOT do what she says with alimony, etc, at that point. Ignore this at your own peril. Men who have been through what you're going through will tell you what they say and what they do are polar opposites. You can get over the divorce if that should happen. But you may never recover from not seeing your kids and paying her for behavior you will think is appalling.
> Think long and hard about how good your wife's word has been. Then think about whether you should get an agreement in place should you divorce. And you should tell her that you don't want a divorce and it's just for your own security, which is 100% true. If she is really thinking at all of you, she will unserstand and you can go to work rebuilding your marriage without her holding an axe over your head.


QFT
Handle the business side or someone else will handle it for you.


----------



## Keepin-my-head-up

One more thing.

Grid said his wife reads this thread.
So I dunno if painting him as an abusive person would be such a golden idea, especially trying to get him to admit to more than he already has.

She just points her lawyer in this direction and who knows.
I mean, the thread is not in the private section so it becomes a public domain type deal right?

For the record- Grid!

I don't think you were ABUSIVE!
(For all eyes)

I don't always get divorced filed against me,
But when I do..
I take it seriously.
Stay protected my friend


----------



## LongWalk

I can see cheating as okay under certain circumstances, but in general it is a moral failure that makes life worse for all concerned. Certainly for their daughters it will suck until Grid and his wife become stable again in either marriage or divorce. Divorce first, new partners later. Simple really.

Grid is doing a good job. Keep it up, Grid.

Mrs Grid is also not so bad in comparison to some. No restraining orders. No drugs. No alcohol. No nights away from home. No erratic actions.

Her divorce petition was not greedy or destructive.

She could be hiding her true intentions.


----------



## manfromlamancha

Bearing in mind



how exposed this thread is;



the fact that Mrs Grid reads this but does not really participate;



that Grid has been given every possible kind of advice and is acting as he sees fit;


I am going to refrain from offering any more advice unless Grid specifically asks for it or unless I see damaging comments being made (damaging to Grid and/or TAM). Grid is aware of what he is doing so lets see how this pans out.

Best of luck, Grid.


----------



## gridcom

I'll tell you. I don't want to divorce my wife and I don't want to blow up my family unit because I don't want to see my kids get hurt. Today marks 16 weeks since D-Day. And I'll say this, my love for my wife is losing steam. It's appalling to me that she would put herself and her own interest ahead of her childrens. It makes me think less of her as a person that she would hold their hands and jump into a great unknown without so much as a real effort to find her way back to the marriage. No effort. I look at my daughters and I think " Man, I would almost do anything not to see them less. I would sacrifice a great deal in order to keep their smiles intact." 10 year old 5th grader and a 5 year old in Kindergarten. Smiles that are 10 miles wide. How could anyone mess with that? I couldn't imagine any scenario where I would want to do something at their expense. I've said it here before. We brought those kids into the world with a responsibility to give them all we have, to give them our very best. NOTHING less. We raise them, we teach them, and we sacrifice for them. We don't haphazardly stumble through life being selfish a$$holes and let them live with the consequences.

I was talking to a not so close friend last night and he knows my situation. He is 35 and his girlfriend is 30 years old. And he was telling me that his girlfriend went through her parents infidelity when she was 14 and "she's dealt with it forever", "she talks about it all the time", and "she has rough patches" and then he went on to say that her little brothers "had it a lot rougher" I'm quoting because it was via text. Point being, I don't want that for my kids. I don't much care about anything else, that comes first to me. 

And that's in no way to say that I'd prefer them to witness a loveless marriage, I wouldn't. But, again, I would absolutely be gutted if my girls didn't get the best efforts (key word being EFFORT) of me and my wife before the moving truck comes and takes my sh*t away. Anything less than that is complete bullsh*t and it's not fair to two wonderful little ladies.

I have a positive attitude. My attitude is I am very aware of my faults and am dealing with them accordingly. This morning I went into the shower and my younger daughters toys were all over the shower floor, and for an instant I was aggrivated I had to clear them before I could shower. And then, I immediately caught myself and said there's nothing more awesome in the world than watching these two girls grow up day in and day out with smiles a mile wide. 


Reconciliation with a Hardened Wife
https://coachjackito.com/blog/i-changed-wife-come-back/ 

These two links I read over and over. They are bookmarked. I can do better with them. I try. I fall. I go a few days and then something happens where I look at my wife and I think "Who are you?" "How could you?" Never mind "How could you do this to ME?" rather "How could you do this to your CHILDREN?" And AGAIN it's not "suck it up and be unhappy" it's "be able to tell your kids one day that you gave it your very best, but in the end they had to suffer anyway" as opposed to "it was a time in my life that I was selfish and I owe you both endless apologies for the damage I've done"

And I don't want to hear about how they'll be fine. This isn't The Brady Bunch over here where his three boys and her three girls come out of divorces and live in these gigantic houses. These kids will be broke because their parents will be broke. They will suffer worse trauma than I have suffered in the last 16 weeks and I know it in my bones. They'll see less of me and they'll see less of my suddenly working a full time job wife. And they'll be like "What in the motherfvck is this bvllsh*t?"

And I come here to learn that essentially there are two approaches. One is counter intuitive and quite frankly scares me and the other one, which seems more natural is frustrating as fvck. I understand there isn't much I can do here but watch, and pray.


----------



## gridcom

And you know that once the truck pulls away, unfortunately that's when my wife will realize that she could have done a better job. And then shortly there after she'll be living in her grief, living in her regret, wallowing in her shame. But, my kids will be right there, wallowing in their own grief and pain.

It drives me nuts. 

That's why I am still "chin up"

Someday, somebody is going to appreciate how tough this was and how much I sacrificed for this family.


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> I'll tell you. I don't want to divorce my wife and I don't want to blow up my family unit because I don't want to see my kids get hurt. Today marks 16 weeks since D-Day. And I'll say this, my love for my wife is losing steam. It's appalling to me that she would put herself and her own interest ahead of her childrens. It makes me think less of her as a person that she would hold their hands and jump into a great unknown without so much as a real effort to find her way back to the marriage. No effort. I look at my daughters and I think " Man, I would almost do anything not to see them less. I would sacrifice a great deal in order to keep their smiles intact." 10 year old 5th grader and a 5 year old in Kindergarten. Smiles that are 10 miles wide. How could anyone mess with that? I couldn't imagine any scenario where I would want to do something at their expense. I've said it here before. We brought those kids into the world with a responsibility to give them all we have, to give them our very best. NOTHING less. We raise them, we teach them, and we sacrifice for them. We don't haphazardly stumble through life being selfish a$$holes and let them live with the consequences.
> 
> I was talking to a not so close friend last night and he knows my situation. He is 35 and his girlfriend is 30 years old. And he was telling me that his girlfriend went through her parents infidelity when she was 14 and "she's dealt with it forever", "she talks about it all the time", and "she has rough patches" and then he went on to say that her little brothers "had it a lot rougher" I'm quoting because it was via text. Point being, I don't want that for my kids. I don't much care about anything else, that comes first to me.
> 
> And that's in no way to say that I'd prefer them to witness a loveless marriage, I wouldn't. But, again, I would absolutely be gutted if my girls didn't get the best efforts (key word being EFFORT) of me and my wife before the moving truck comes and takes my sh*t away. Anything less than that is complete bullsh*t and it's not fair to two wonderful little ladies.
> 
> I have a positive attitude. My attitude is I am very aware of my faults and am dealing with them accordingly. This morning I went into the shower and my younger daughters toys were all over the shower floor, and for an instant I was aggrivated I had to clear them before I could shower. And then, I immediately caught myself and said there's nothing more awesome in the world than watching these two girls grow up day in and day out with smiles a mile wide.
> 
> 
> Reconciliation with a Hardened Wife
> https://coachjackito.com/blog/i-changed-wife-come-back/
> 
> These two links I read over and over. They are bookmarked. I can do better with them. I try. I fall. I go a few days and then something happens where I look at my wife and I think "Who are you?" "How could you?" Never mind "How could you do this to ME?" rather "How could you do this to your CHILDREN?" And AGAIN it's not "suck it up and be unhappy" it's "be able to tell your kids one day that you gave it your very best, but in the end they had to suffer anyway" as opposed to "it was a time in my life that I was selfish and I owe you both endless apologies for the damage I've done"
> 
> And I don't want to hear about how they'll be fine. This isn't The Brady Bunch over here where his three boys and her three girls come out of divorces and live in these gigantic houses. These kids will be broke because their parents will be broke. They will suffer worse trauma than I have suffered in the last 16 weeks and I know it in my bones. They'll see less of me and they'll see less of my suddenly working a full time job wife. And they'll be like "What in the motherfvck is this bvllsh*t?"
> 
> And I come here to learn that essentially there are two approaches. One is counter intuitive and quite frankly scares me and the other one, which seems more natural is frustrating as fvck. I understand there isn't much I can do here but watch, and pray.



Grid you have got along way to go. Sorry man but this post reeks of codepedency yet again. You can't save your kids by staying together. The damage has already been done.


----------



## jld

I'm so sorry, grid. I hear your pain. 

I really wish your wife had not had that affair. I really wish your little girls were not suffering along with you. This is all just so wrong. 

I really wish your wife had been strong enough to come to you and insist you change. I wish she had come and told you she felt herself slipping away from you, into the arms of another. Together you two could have fought against that.

You know the strength of character you are showing? How many men do you think could read those very convicting links over and over? Your willingness to be honest with yourself is impressive, grid.

You have a good heart. With the help of your IC, you are confronting your own issues and developing inner strength.

I believe you and your wife can do this, grid. I am sure it is not easy. But I believe that, with patience and perseverance, you can do it.

I hope AP will be along soon to offer her excellent counsel. She is from an Italian family, too. You won't find a more loving family woman, and a realistic person regarding relationships, than Anon Pink.


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> Someday, somebody is going to appreciate how tough this was and how much I sacrificed for this family.


This post is so unhealthy.


----------



## gridcom

I disagree completely that the "damage has been done" to my kids. The damage has yet to be done. I don't know how codependency works, but this isn't about my wife as much as it's about my children.


----------



## jld

You have chosen a path that is building your character, grid. It is not meant to be easy, for anyone. It is by working through the difficulty that your character is forged.

I am sure your children will thank you for the rest of their lives for what you are undertaking.

Do you have any bible verses you can focus on when you are feeling discouraged?


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> I disagree completely that the "damage has been done" to my kids. The damage has yet to be done. I don't know how codependency works, but this isn't about my wife as much as it's about my children.


I bet you disagree. The damage has been done over the last several years. 

Grid I have been in your very shoes. 

I have thought your same thoughts.

My wife left me with a 3 and 6 year old. 

Your either going to do this the TAM way or the hard way.


----------



## farsidejunky

ButtPunch said:


> This post is so unhealthy.


I could not agree more. It is a martyr complex. 

Grid, this is a recipe for resentment. Resenting your wife; resenting your daughters if you are not careful. It is another marker of codependence.


----------



## gridcom

jld said:


> You have chosen a path that is building your character, grid. It is not meant to be easy, for anyone. It is by working through the difficulty that your character is forged.
> 
> I am sure your children will thank you for the rest of their lives for what you are undertaking.
> 
> Do you have any bible verses you can focus on when you are feeling discouraged?


No. 

And I don't think my children will thank me. I think they'll be bitter. I think there will be distance between us more than physical distance. At least, that's my fear.

You all call it "limbo". I compare it to a spinning coin that's starting to slow down and is going to land heads or tails. I am doing my best, but the end of this chapter is near. Retrouvaille is in 3 weeks and I am putting a lot into that being make or break, honestly.

I don't see past it, at all.


----------



## farsidejunky

gridcom said:


> I disagree completely that the "damage has been done" to my kids. The damage has yet to be done. I don't know how codependency works, but this isn't about my wife as much as it's about my children.


Grid, I also come from divorced parents. They split when I was 8. It hurt. It hurt like hell. But somehow, I turned out okay.

So have many others. 

Nobody can promise you they will be okay, Grid. But nobody can promise you they won't be, either. 

Ultimately, the healthier you are, the better their chances.


----------



## gridcom

Buttpunch, do you have a story? I just went to look for your thread and I couldn't find it. I am curious.


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> No.
> 
> And I don't think my children will thank me. I think they'll be bitter. I think there will be distance between us more than physical distance. At least, that's my fear.
> 
> You all call it "limbo". I compare it to a spinning coin that's starting to slow down and is going to land heads or tails. I am doing my best, but the end of this chapter is near. Retrouvaille is in 3 weeks and I am putting a lot into that being make or break, honestly.
> 
> I don't see past it, at all.


Grid

While I do not agree with Plan A, you need to stick to it. Going back and forth from TAM advice to JLD advice is not wise. 

Set a date in your head as to how much more sh*t you can take. I suggest a short while after Retrouvaille. In the meantime, get a handle on the codependency. It will kill this relationship or any future ones. You can do this. 

I imagine your ww will not like it too much if you become less codependent.


----------



## gridcom

farsidejunky said:


> Grid, I also come from divorced parents. They split when I was 8. It hurt. It hurt like hell. But somehow, I turned out okay.
> 
> So have many others.
> 
> Nobody can promise you they will be okay, Grid. But nobody can promise you they won't be, either.
> 
> Ultimately, the healthier you are, the better their chances.


A few thoughts here. First, it's only half about emotionally stable. Financially stable, that's a whole other ball of wax. I wonder if there's been a study of children who come out of broken homes and how they are effected, and to what degree the finances play a factor in their overall growth and stability. We aren't materialistic people at all. We are very much simpletons. We live hand to mouth. We have no savings, obviously. I have no retirement and my wife's is mostly gone. Our families don't have money. We had one great financial year and moved to a town with a killer school district. Smallest house in the whole town. 70k debt. Parts of the house are long past upgrade. None of this improves with divorce

My kids have hand my down bikes and hand me down clothes. My oldest daughter has a friend who has a real ROLLER COASTER in her basement. And I only say that to demonstrate the culture she is surrounded by. I dont say it to say "Oh, we'll get divorced and my daughter will never have her indoor roller coaster" Don't get me wrong. Divorce is going to be financially brutal and because my wife will have to work full time, and even then it'll be finanically brutal, the kids will suffer because they'll see her less 

Farside, curious how finances played a role in your growth and being able to out run the sadness of parents splitting


----------



## ButtPunch

farsidejunky said:


> Grid, I also come from divorced parents. They split when I was 8. It hurt. It hurt like hell. But somehow, I turned out okay.
> 
> So have many others.
> 
> Nobody can promise you they will be okay, Grid. But nobody can promise you they won't be, either.
> 
> Ultimately, the healthier you are, the better their chances.


This...


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> Buttpunch, do you have a story? I just went to look for your thread and I couldn't find it. I am curious.


I do on another site.


----------



## gridcom

ButtPunch said:


> I do on another site.


And dont get me wrong, I appreciate anyone who takes the time to offer support of any variety. But I wonder, because your stance is so far to one side, if you ended up divorced and if you have since found new love.


----------



## farsidejunky

gridcom said:


> A few thoughts here. First, it's only half about emotionally stable. Financially stable, that's a whole other ball of wax. I wonder if there's been a study of children who come out of broken homes and how they are effected, and to what degree the finances play a factor in their overall growth and stability. We aren't materialistic people at all. We are very much simpletons. We live hand to mouth. We have no savings, obviously. I have no retirement and my wife's is mostly gone. Our families don't have money. We had one great financial year and moved to a town with a killer school district. Smallest house in the whole town. 70k debt. Parts of the house are long past upgrade. None of this improves with divorce
> 
> My kids have hand my down bikes and hand me down clothes. My oldest daughter has a friend who has a real ROLLER COASTER in her basement. And I only say that to demonstrate the culture she is surrounded by. I dont say it to say "Oh, we'll get divorced and my daughter will never have her indoor roller coaster" Don't get me wrong. Divorce is going to be financially brutal and because my wife will have to work full time, and even then it'll be finanically brutal, the kids will suffer.
> 
> Farside, curious how finances played a role in your growth and being able to out run the sadness of parents splitting


My mother had us when my dad left. He had already grown his hair long and was living as an Indian on what he called "following the red road". 

Of course, finding himself meant he was living on the river and fishing with his third affair partner of the marriage, while my mother was left to deal with the IRS and the California Franchise Tax Board from my father walking away from his liquor store. Liens. Past due taxes to the tune of over 10K in 1982/83. No child support. No alimony. 

We lived with my our maternal grandmother for a while. Then my mom found a house to rent in an okay neighborhood. Our Christmas and birthday presents were lean, but we had full bellies and a mom who was second to none.

My mother met my soon to be step father later. He was a great man who owned a small business. He had months where he would not being home pay due to low income. But we again had full bellies and a lot of love.

Brother, money does equal freedom. I have no illusions about that. But money also corrupts. 

The character of the parent is what helps determine the kids character, and how money will impact them. I see where you stack up in the character department. 

I have serious doubts about your WW. I believe in leadership in the family. But at some point, it takes more than leading by example. She has to make a decision to either keep drilling holes in the family boat, or to help you fill them in. 

But sitting there watching you fill the holes while she is mad at you for getting her on the boat to begin with is no way to navigate rough seas.


----------



## bfree

Grid, you sound so dejected my heart goes out to you. I'd like to just say a few things if I may. You're a good man. The fact that you recognize your faults speaks to your character. And your willingness to address those faults speaks to your strength. I know it may not seem like it now but regardless of what happens you'll be okay. And because of your strength and character your kids will be okay too. You'll make sure of it. I'm saddened that your wife doesn't seem interested in creating a new marriage with you and a new family dynamic for all. It does take two to reconcile though and I pray she has a change of heart, a change of mind, and a change of spirit. Jld is right in this. You can lead your family to a better place. Your wife might choose not to follow. Maybe a better place might include a different woman. Someone who can lovingly and morally guide your children. This new woman might even be your wife transformed and lifted by God's love. Who knows what the future will bring. Just continue on your chosen path and trust that wherever it leads is where you'll need to be.


----------



## Bobby5000

Saw this late and read something about 24 against 1. 

I think looking at constructive change is a realistic step for the person dealing with infidelity and seeing what needs to be changed a sensible approach. There are legitimate questions when this should occur.


----------



## gridcom

Also, to the surprise of nobody I'm sure, I've been not sleeping again after a long stretch of regular sleep. Before this whole "affair" happened, I was working so much that I was basically going to bed at 2:30 in the morning and waking up at 7:30-8:00. So, for a long time I was able to role on 5-5.5 hours of sleep. The last 4 nights I have been going to bed at around 2:30 and waking up at 4, then staying up until 6-6:30, then going to bed until about 8am. So, I am on three hours a night now for 4 straight nights. I don't take any medication or pills of any sort. I never have. The Married Man's Sex Life Primer book talks about suppliments men take as they get older by choice and not by choice, and I'm proud to say I've swallowed very few pills of any sort in my life. I guess what I am saying is I don't want to take sleep aids. 

That said, it's hard to stay focused and even when you aren't sleeping. It's the fast way to getting knocked off course. I feel like when I was sleeping more, my head was on straight.

And besides that, I'm just pissed.


----------



## farsidejunky

Melatonin, brother.

But get the sublingual stuff (for under the tongue). It always worked quicker for me. No side effects either as it is a naturally produced chemical that tells your body to be tired.


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> Also, to the surprise of nobody I'm sure, I've been not sleeping again after a long stretch of regular sleep. Before this whole "affair" happened, I was working so much that I was basically going to bed at 2:30 in the morning and waking up at 7:30-8:00. So, for a long time I was able to role on 5-5.5 hours of sleep. The last 4 nights I have been going to bed at around 2:30 and waking up at 4, then staying up until 6-6:30, then going to bed until about 8am. So, I am on three hours a night now for 4 straight nights. I don't take any medication or pills of any sort. I never have. The Married Man's Sex Life Primer book talks about suppliments men take as they get older by choice and not by choice, and I'm proud to say I've swallowed very few pills of any sort in my life. I guess what I am saying is I don't want to take sleep aids.
> 
> That said, it's hard to stay focused and even when you aren't sleeping. It's the fast way to getting knocked off course. I feel like when I was sleeping more, my head was on straight.
> 
> And besides that, I'm just pissed.


It sounds like depression setting in. Its common. I had it too. Go to sleep wake up and can't go back to sleep.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Evinrude58

I had all these same thoughts. Very similar background for me. I'm praying for you. I know the constant gnawing of "why did this happen", "why won't she come to her senses", and dealing with your life's dreams failing and uncertainty constantly eats at you from daylight until dark and then some. I still have dreams about my ex wife, who's wearing a far nicer engagement ring than I ever could have afforded to give her as we speak and we've been divorced only a couple of months. It's a year wait here.
My kids don't enjoy their week with me like they do with her because she has plenty of money to blow on them since she has no bills, and because she is mom. They seem ok, but divorce definitely boogers up the works. 
But Grid, you are a strong person even if right now you think you aren't. You absolutely will get through this. Even if you divorce, and you really need to accept that is happening whether you do or you don't, you will eventually feel like your old self again and be happy. You expect her to regret what she's done. She may never regret it. But find solace in the fact that you not only overcame this and that you came out happy. You WILL as long as you keep trying to build the life you want. This thing is still screwing with my head. I have bad days where I feel like hiding in my shop and crying. But they get rarer and rarer. I don't allow myself to go into a funk and stay there. If you just spend your free time with your girls and all you have is their love, you will still have a happy life if you let yourself. I wish I had a recipe for reconciliation. I tried begging, cooking, cleaning, letting her do whatever while I kept the kids(i.e. Bars with single friends) and did everything I could to show her that I realized my shortcomings as a husband and was more than willing to work on them. Fact is, she did not care. I personally think once a woman has made up her mind about not loving a man, it is over and done with. I hope for you that I am proven wrong. I was able to keep my home and have equal custody of my kids because I acted fast and got things done legally before her toxic friends hot to her and she successfully convinced herself that it was all my fault. I had to take on all the debt.
But I have a place to live. If i'd not acted quickly, I wiuld be living with my dad and paying half my paycheck in child support. I couldn't afford a place to live. I don't want that to happen to anyone. Don't think your life is over if she is out of it. Just accept it and accept that you did what you could. Then work on making your life like you want it again. I actually look forward to the future now. I never thought I would again for a long time. 
You will make it through this. If I can, you can as well.


----------



## gridcom

Evinrude58 said:


> I had all these same thoughts. Very similar background for me. I'm praying for you. I know the constant gnawing of "why did this happen", "why won't she come to her senses", and dealing with your life's dreams failing and uncertainty constantly eats at you from daylight until dark and then some. I still have dreams about my ex wife, who's wearing a far nicer engagement ring than I ever could have afforded to give her as we speak and we've been divorced only a couple of months. It's a year wait here.
> My kids don't enjoy their week with me like they do with her because she has plenty of money to blow on them since she has no bills, and because she is mom. They seem ok, but divorce definitely boogers up the works.
> But Grid, you are a strong person even if right now you think you aren't. You absolutely will get through this. Even if you divorce, and you really need to accept that is happening whether you do or you don't, you will eventually feel like your old self again and be happy. You expect her to regret what she's done. She may never regret it. But find solace in the fact that you not only overcame this and that you came out happy. You WILL as long as you keep trying to build the life you want. This thing is still screwing with my head. I have bad days where I feel like hiding in my shop and crying. But they get rarer and rarer. I don't allow myself to go into a funk and stay there. If you just spend your free time with your girls and all you have is their love, you will still have a happy life if you let yourself. I wish I had a recipe for reconciliation. I tried begging, cooking, cleaning, letting her do whatever while I kept the kids(i.e. Bars with single friends) and did everything I could to show her that I realized my shortcomings as a husband and was more than willing to work on them. Fact is, she did not care. I personally think once a woman has made up her mind about not loving a man, it is over and done with. I hope for you that I am proven wrong. I was able to keep my home and have equal custody of my kids because I acted fast and got things done legally before her toxic friends hot to her and she successfully convinced herself that it was all my fault. I had to take on all the debt.
> But I have a place to live. If i'd not acted quickly, I wiuld be living with my dad and paying half my paycheck in child support. I couldn't afford a place to live. I don't want that to happen to anyone. Don't think your life is over if she is out of it. Just accept it and accept that you did what you could. Then work on making your life like you want it again. I actually look forward to the future now. I never thought I would again for a long time.
> You will make it through this. If I can, you can as well.


I am not worried about me, at all. I'm really not. I am just worried about my kids. That's all. My pain right now is for my children only. I will be fine. Less fine if my kids are messed up. Less fine if I have to see their faces with anything less than the smiles I see right now.


----------



## tech-novelist

gridcom said:


> A few thoughts here. First, it's only half about emotionally stable. Financially stable, that's a whole other ball of wax. I wonder if there's been a study of children who come out of broken homes and how they are effected, and to what degree the finances play a factor in their overall growth and stability. We aren't materialistic people at all. We are very much simpletons. We live hand to mouth. We have no savings, obviously. I have no retirement and my wife's is mostly gone. Our families don't have money. We had one great financial year and moved to a town with a killer school district. Smallest house in the whole town. 70k debt. Parts of the house are long past upgrade. None of this improves with divorce
> 
> My kids have hand my down bikes and hand me down clothes. My oldest daughter has a friend who has a real ROLLER COASTER in her basement. And I only say that to demonstrate the culture she is surrounded by. I dont say it to say "Oh, we'll get divorced and my daughter will never have her indoor roller coaster" Don't get me wrong. Divorce is going to be financially brutal and because my wife will have to work full time, and even then it'll be finanically brutal, the kids will suffer because they'll see her less
> 
> Farside, curious how finances played a role in your growth and being able to out run the sadness of parents splitting


I'm not Farside, but my parents divorced when I was a teenager. My two younger brothers and I lived with my mother after that. We never had much money, but I don't think I was terribly harmed by that (or the divorce). My younger brothers took it harder, but both of them seem to have come through it all right.

As for the roller coaster situation, I have fairly close relatives who moved to a great school district but are over their heads financially. Personally, I prefer to have less stuff and maybe even a less-fabulous school district but be more secure financially.


----------



## tech-novelist

farsidejunky said:


> Melatonin, brother.
> 
> But get the sublingual stuff (for under the tongue). It always worked quicker for me. No side effects either as it is a naturally produced chemical that tells your body to be tired.


CBD oil seems to help sleep too, and it's legal in every state as far as I know.


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## cbnero

To: Grid
From: Nero

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...ZuuBuw&usg=AFQjCNEit95ggBT8wzzbFQJjd7V2HMGvGw


----------



## ButtPunch

Grid 

You and your kids will be fine either way no matter what happens.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

Grid, I have heard you discussing prayer.

This one has been heavy on me for about a week.

Focus on the big picture, brother. I hope it finds you well.

https://youtu.be/K8yjqt8x2Qg


----------



## Pluto2

Grid, I'm sending you a PM about a way you might sleep better.


----------



## Anon Pink

Oh grid I'm so sorry you're feeling so overwhelmed right now. I hear your concern for your kids and their future happiness should a reconciliation not work. I hear your concerns about finances, lack of savings, and mounting debt. And now sleeplessness.

You MUST get sleep. You cannot go without it! You cannot face challenges without adequate sleep. Call your doc and get an rx for ambien, lunesta...whatever. Just get sleep!

You've got a lot of pressure on you right now and it all seems 100 times worse because of your marriage. 

You wondered about how kids fare after divorce when they will be so financially, materially affected. It depends on how it's handled. Will the adults in the child's life BE adults who can balance their worry along with a sense of joy in living in the moment? You talked about seeing the toys on the floor and your first reaction was annoyance but then you realized what a gift their presence in your life is. That's exactly what I'm talking about. Balancing worry with joy. Kids are actually pretty resilient, when they are taught to balance worry and joy.

So what do you, as one of their parents, need to do to show your kids what balance looks like? As a parent, you're not expected to be on target at every moment of the day, in fact it's good to allow your kids to see you be worried about something and see you cope with that and see you still find joy in the moment. Parents who pretend life is all wonderful do as much a disservice to their kids as parents who do nothing but obsess about every worry. Teach resiliency by modeling resiliency.

I hope you get some sleep this week.


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## turnera

We were pretty well off. A financial planner came to assess us and told us he couldn't help us, we were doing it all right. Then we moved and everything fell apart. Went from no debt to more than $100,000 in debt. We went from giving our DD everything to shopping at resale shops. I put her on a small allowance and told her that if she wanted something, she had to save up her own money for it. 

She has told me that it was a Godsend that it happened, because she was on her way to becoming a diva. Today, she has more in savings than I do, she's smart, she plans, and she's perfectly happy.

Kids don't want stuff, grid.

They want your time and attention. They'd rather go camping, biking, hiking, playing baseball. They just want you.


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## Soveryalone

whenever i feel myself getting close to someone, all i need to do is read one of these threads and just like that I am all alone and safe once again, also i tend to beat myself for never getting married or fathering any children, once again , i just read one of these threads and I feel a million times better(not so much the being a father part i wish i had done that at some point).

GRID i have read most of this thread, you seem like an awesome guy, your children are blessed to have a father like you. I agree with the others , you need to sleep friend, get to the docs and bite the bullet and take a pill for once lol join the darkside man geesh... you need sleep for your own well being, your own mental and physical health and you need your sleep to be completely present for your children.

GRID don't beat yourself up, don't play the what if game in your mind, we all do it, i know i did, just choose not to, there is nothing , NOTHING you or anyone who has been in your position could have done to prevent this from happening, therefore there is no need to dwell, no need to feel bad, no need to be angry, there is no need at all for any of the negative emotions, i know its easier said than done, but truthfully there is nothing different you could have done to prevent this, betraying ones family is something most people could never do, sadly some people have it in their DNA to do so , i am truly sorry for your pain, deeply sorry to you and to all who have experienced this pain.


----------



## Anon Pink

turnera said:


> We were pretty well off. A financial planner came to assess us and told us he couldn't help us, we were doing it all right. Then we moved and everything fell apart. Went from no debt to more than $100,000 in debt. We went from giving our DD everything to shopping at resale shops. I put her on a small allowance and told her that if she wanted something, she had to save up her own money for it.
> 
> She has told me that it was a Godsend that it happened, because she was on her way to becoming a diva. Today, she has more in savings than I do, she's smart, she plans, and she's perfectly happy.
> 
> *Kids don't want stuff, grid.*
> 
> They want your time and attention. They'd rather go camping, biking, hiking, playing baseball. They just want you.



Absolutely true!

Lol....except they do want stuff. They want everything they see and more. And it's up to the adults to teach them how to work, save and eventually pay for it. Handing your kids STUFF teaches them the importance of STUFF but STUFF isn't important.


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## Chuck71

Evinrude58 said:


> I disagree. I think most people feel that the WW is the one that is making him feel like he was so horrible, because she needs him to be in order to justify her actions in her own mind. I'm sure he was a pain in the arse many times, and I'm also sure that she was as well.
> She chose to dump him in her mind and go full speed ahead with another man. Had she told him to shape up, and fix whatever it was he was messing up with or else and THEN when he did not,serve him with divorce papers, nobody could say a word. I believe she chose the OM for lots of reasons that were very selfish, and that whatever negatives in her mind on Grid's part were magnified by her desire to maker her decision easier. Kind of like when a kid vilifies their parents to justify them doing something they know they shouldn't. And she's making Grid pay for her adultery, and I think that's wrong.


When a WW lets the POSOM slide off her panties

she has emotionally D her H.


----------



## LongWalk

Grid,
You wonder about ButtPunch's story. I sent you the link long ago. He had a different moniker back then but you will get it.

Punch is absolutely the best role model for you because his children were around the same age. 

You are wrong in thinking that the Punch/TAM is diametrically opposed to jld. There are different ways to show love. 

In your situation being strong by clinging to your wife in her dysfunction, depression and disloyalty actually weakens you.

Your wife perhaps doesn't know what she wants. The best strategy is to be the man you should be. Lead.

She filed for divorce. You should prepare for divorce.

You are having sex. Is it helping you think or confusing you?

Your goal is not divorce but health. Your wife will perhaps choose to join you. You cannot make her.

I also sent Punch's link to jld. I think she will claim that Punch is her follower. This is not as ironic as it seems because jld does not fully understand what makes men tick. She does know what she approves of.


----------



## manfromlamancha

manfromlamancha said:


> All of this is getting a bit too complicated for me. But I have a couple of immediate questions:
> 
> *WHY IS SHE HAVING SEX WITH YOU WHEN SHE DOESN'T LOVE YOU?*
> 
> And secondly:
> 
> *WHY ARE YOU HAVING SEX WITH HER WHEN SHE LOVES ANOTHER MAN AND NOT YOU ?*
> 
> Is she just trying to keep the peace at home ? This is a false peace. And it is degrading to you both.
> 
> Are you just taking advantage of the sex that is on offer ? This too is degrading behaviour.
> 
> And on another note, to explain why people say "as long as the POSOM (note I never drop the POS in mentioning the OM) is in the picture", this affair was never properly shut down with all the exposure, fire and brimstone etc that goes along with it. HR should be looking into it, the POSOM's wife or gf and family should know etc. Mrs Grid should have written and sent a NC letter. She should have changed jobs, and been active about getting a new one. All that happens is she promised not to talk or meet with him, while he sends her coded love messages in Spotify playlists and probably eye glances etc.
> 
> This is not a case of her suffering the loss of her POSOM. It is more of a case of biding her time until the time is right to leave. She knows he is waiting for her.
> 
> I really hope this Retrouvaille clears up things and not necessarily towards reconciliation. At this stage, I think that if she does not truly appreciate and want you, it is for the best that you guys split up asap!
> 
> Be strong and stay strong!



Grid, the bolded questions above still stand. I did not receive a reply to them. Is having sex with her and her with you part of the grand plan ? Do you have an answer for either of those questions ?


----------



## ThreeStrikes

I've been reading, and I keep hearing the same mantra from many of the former BS's:

"Grid, I had the same thoughts as you do."

"Grid, I went through the same sh!t"

"Grid, you and your kids are going to be OK"

Grid, you aren't alone, and so many of us are on the same path as you...just a little further along, up around the bend. 

And we're telling you....there are no lurking dangers on the road. Stay on the path. *Trust us!*

It seems to me that you are reaching a breaking point. The increased anxiety, lack of sleep, the drama-triangle conversations you keep having in your head are telling signs.

(The Three Faces of Victim ? An Overview of the Drama Triangle)


And I'm telling you "Great!". This is exactly what you need. It's not what you want, it's what you* need*.

Way back towards the start of this thread, I wrote that if you ignored the advice from the TAM vets, and listened to jld and her agenda, then you are going to *suffer*. 

And brother, it's apparent to everyone here that you are *suffering*.

And I say "Great!"

Because growth occurs at the precipice. And you're almost there.

When you break, you are going to detach. Just like many of us had to do. Because if you don't, your heart will explode. It's self-preservation.

You will detach. You'll get to 50K. You'll start to awake and gain some awareness.

It's what you need.

Edit: I am not pushing you towards D or R. As I've said before, that will hinge on Mrs. Grid's actions.


----------



## LongWalk

ManfromLaMancha has asked the right question, for sometimes couple struggling with infidelity experience hysterical bonding. This can be good, bad or in between depending on what is happening in each individual and in their relationship. Right now you and your wife have not even clearly committed to reconciliation. It's more like, you are considering reconciliation as an option. That lack of enthusiasm by your wife is wearing on you.

What is she doing to prepare for reconciliation? Right now are you in waiting-for-Retrouvaille limbo? How can you get ready for Retrouvaille?

You cannot make your wife quit smoking, exercise, change jobs. You cannot make her love you. Perhaps you can manipulate her into remaining married because she is incapable of facing single parenthood. But if she is not in, what sort of marriage will you have?

Maybe your wife will read BP's thread. Couldn't hurt her to read a moral tale.


----------



## just got it 55

bfree said:


> Grid, you sound so dejected my heart goes out to you. I'd like to just say a few things if I may. You're a good man. The fact that you recognize your faults speaks to your character. And your willingness to address those faults speaks to your strength. I know it may not seem like it now but regardless of what happens you'll be okay. And because of your strength and character your kids will be okay too. You'll make sure of it. I'm saddened that your wife doesn't seem interested in creating a new marriage with you and a new family dynamic for all. It does take two to reconcile though and I pray she has a change of heart, a change of mind, and a change of spirit. Jld is right in this. You can lead your family to a better place. Your wife might choose not to follow. Maybe a better place might include a different woman. Someone who can lovingly and morally guide your children. This new woman might even be your wife transformed and lifted by God's love. Who knows what the future will bring. Just continue on your chosen path and trust that wherever it leads is where you'll need to be.


Grid...... et al 

This is the single most comforting post I have read here in two years

Nicely said Bfree You're a gifted man.Very wise words

And they can be lived by..... by all.

55


----------



## ButtPunch

I lifted this from another thread as it applies to this one




> I'm just curious here. If you knew that your spouse was only staying for the kids and that it was very unlikely that they would change their mind, would you simply prefer that they left?


If something had all the signs of hopelessness.. after many years, and if there was another woman, I couldn't live with that.. I'd need him out of my sight.... Leave & don't let the door hit you in the a**.....

I have very strong feelings about unrequited love....I would spit on it... just the thought of someone staying who didn't love me, want me, and was happy to be with me , while their heart pined to be with another....it's highly repulsive to me .. I would recoil from it...I would insist they leave so we both could find happiness elsewhere.. 

If a couple can not reconcile their differences to make Peace, find the attraction again, coming together for something REAL, living , genuine feelings of appreciation & want.. it all goes to hell for me. I could not thrive where I felt there was a blocker on our communication even. 

Thank God my parents didn't do this.. I was a casualty of some things due to their divorce... but I wouldn't change it.. at least one of my parents found happiness again.. that's better than both being miserable with each other, not to mention the example set to the children.

Had cousins who spoke about this many yrs ago.. how my Uncle & their Mother stayed together till they left for college.. and it was the worse thing ever, tension filled that house.. they hated it.


----------



## turnera

Look. She says she wants to go to Retro. Let's just wait and see what happens with that, ok? Armchair quarterbacking is doing nothing at this point.


----------



## ButtPunch

turnera said:


> Look. She says she wants to go to Retro. Let's just wait and see what happens with that, ok?


I think everyone here is in agreement with this.


----------



## anchorwatch

Grid, 

Three weeks may seem like an eternity now, but it's rather short in a lifetime. You've both made the decision to at least explore what 
Retrouvaille might do for you and you family. Let it happen. Both of you need to keep it together until it happens and then it will be time to address it all. 

BTW, I also agree with @farsidejunky about 5mg of melatonin under you tongue at bedtime. I've not experienced any side effects and have functioned much better at daily activities. Enjoy the game. 

Best


----------



## truster

This is advice that won't apply until much further down the road, but.. don't bankrupt yourself for a good school district.

I've read paper after paper of research teasing out what makes a good school, and the one thing that stood out between them is that there is no teasing out the effect of a school from the effect of involved parents. A school's reputation attracts involved parents, making it a self-fulfilling prophecy that the reputable school performs well. However, when following families that move between 'rungs' of school districts, there doesn't appear to be any variation in a particular child's performance. Within reason, of course -- if moving from the very top to the very bottom, you will see issues due to the fact that severely underfunded schools typically have gym/music for half the day, and teachers that don't show up. But within reason, moving "down" a few rungs doesn't affect a child's performance in the least. And that extra money may be able to give them experiences that even help, like camps in things they really enjoy.


----------



## turnera

I always daydream about what I would do if I was a millionaire, and the one thing I keep going back to is that I would institute people - live bodies - into as many schools as my money will pay for (guess I need to start a foundation so more people will help pay for it), just to have real people connecting with real kids on a one-to-one level and get or keep them inspired to love learning. Teach a kid math, who knows. Teach a kid to love to LEARN math, and he can accomplish anything.

The other part I would do is to reach out to the parents and show them how their kids, from the worst parts in town, can accomplish anything, if only the parent would get involved, set high standards, show up at the school and let the kids SEE them showing up.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

turnera said:


> I always daydream about what I would do if I was a millionaire...


Reminds me of one if my favorite scenes from Office Space:

Peter Gibbons: I would relax... I would sit on my ass all day... I would do nothing. 
Lawrence: Well, you don't need a million dollars to do nothing, man. Take a look at my cousin: he's broke, don't do ****.


----------



## gridcom

manfromlamancha said:


> Grid, the bolded questions above still stand. I did not receive a reply to them. Is having sex with her and her with you part of the grand plan ? Do you have an answer for either of those questions ?


*WHY IS SHE HAVING SEX WITH YOU WHEN SHE DOESN'T LOVE YOU?*

Because she likes having sex and she's comfortable having sex with me

*WHY ARE YOU HAVING SEX WITH HER WHEN SHE LOVES ANOTHER MAN AND NOT YOU ?*

Because I like having sex and and comfortable having sex with her.

A ******* truck driver friend of mine said, very simply, the last person who she had sex with is the person she is going to think about the most. Crude thinking, and likely not true, but fun to find out

I can't speak for her, but she seems fine and unaffected in any way when we have sex. She certainly isn't negative about it although she doesn't at all initiate.

On my end, it doesn't bother me emotionally either. We've never been too much into the "love marking/passionate" end of sex. it's always been more physical, although certainly there is a "love making" element. If we were having sex and I was crying on top of her, ie Eric Roberts in "Star 80", then I'd say it's not a healthy thing.

But, as far as I'm concerned, if I am getting a divorce here, and I have the option to get divorced AND get laid, I'll take that option. My wife is hot.

I hope that answers the question as I cannot be on this board much at all today

Thanks everyone

Lets Go Mets!


----------



## Sammy64

gridcom said:


> *WHY IS SHE HAVING SEX WITH YOU WHEN SHE DOESN'T LOVE YOU?*
> 
> *Because she likes having sex and she's comfortable having sex with me*
> 
> *WHY ARE YOU HAVING SEX WITH HER WHEN SHE LOVES ANOTHER MAN AND NOT YOU ?*
> 
> *Because I like having sex and and comfortable having sex with her*.
> 
> A ******* truck driver friend of mine said, very simply, the last person who she had sex with is the person she is going to think about the most. Crude thinking, and likely not true, but fun to find out
> 
> I can't speak for her, but she seems fine and unaffected in any way when we have sex. S*he certainly isn't negative about it although she doesn't at all initiate*.
> 
> On my end, it doesn't bother me emotionally either. We've never been too much into the "love marking/passionate" end of sex. it's always been more physical, although certainly there is a "love making" element. If we were having sex and I was crying on top of her, ie Eric Roberts in "Star 80", then I'd say it's not a healthy thing.
> 
> But, as far as I'm concerned, if I am getting a divorce here, and I have the option to get divorced AND get laid, I'll take that option. My wife is hot.
> 
> I hope that answers the question as I cannot be on this board much at all today
> 
> Thanks everyone
> 
> Lets Go Mets!



Seen a couple of flags in this...


----------



## Keepin-my-head-up

gridcom said:


> I disagree completely that the "damage has been done" to my kids. The damage has yet to be done. I don't know how codependency works, but this isn't about my wife as much as it's about my children.


Yes, it will affect your kids.
Nothing is going to stop that if you divorce.

From your most recent posts though, it is clear that it is up to your wife to choose you since you are willing to do almost anything to protect your girls from mom and dad not living together.
I get it, been there. It suuuucks!
But what you also need to be doing is protecting them from the real possibility that mommy doesn't choose daddy!
Get your time with the girls on paper!
Protect that!
Where they will live, what school, etc...
You think you are in debt now?!
You and your wife are in a good enough place to work out a lot of the logistics yourselves should you divorce.

If you wait til court and let the lawyers work out the logistics, well you will know what debt really is.

So are you also doing these things?

Also, ask your wife when was the last time she had contact with her attorney or his paralegal.
Not just talked to them but had any kind of contact


----------



## Chuck71

truster said:


> This is advice that won't apply until much further down the road, but.. don't bankrupt yourself for a good school district.
> 
> I've read paper after paper of research teasing out what makes a good school, and the one thing that stood out between them is that there is no teasing out the effect of a school from the effect of involved parents. A school's reputation attracts involved parents, making it a self-fulfilling prophecy that the reputable school performs well. However, when following families that move between 'rungs' of school districts, there doesn't appear to be any variation in a particular child's performance. Within reason, of course -- if moving from the very top to the very bottom, you will see issues due to the fact that severely underfunded schools typically have gym/music for half the day, and teachers that don't show up. But within reason, moving "down" a few rungs doesn't affect a child's performance in the least. And that extra money may be able to give them experiences that even help, like camps in things they really enjoy.


Accepting that one has a drinking problem and involved parents in their children's education have one thing in common,

that is 50% of the battle. I taught at an inner city school, rough group but there were about 33% of the students

who had active parents. Their national test scores were very high. Sadly... the other 67% brought them way down.

I am a former school teacher and I could go on and on about the decline of public schools in the last

40 years. Good parents back teachers and principals who want to try and make a difference. Think that matters??

Let 100 parents show up at a school board meeting.... they WILL let them know they appreciate involved faculty.

Some of the best schools in my area are private schools and schools zoned in "high end" neighborhoods.

Some are also zoned in rural areas and inner city. Money does not make the schools, I can swear on that.


----------



## Chuck71

turnera said:


> I always daydream about what I would do if I was a millionaire, and the one thing I keep going back to is that I would institute people - live bodies - into as many schools as my money will pay for (guess I need to start a foundation so more people will help pay for it), just to have real people connecting with real kids on a one-to-one level and get or keep them inspired to love learning. Teach a kid math, who knows. Teach a kid to love to LEARN math, and he can accomplish anything.
> 
> The other part I would do is to reach out to the parents and show them how their kids, from the worst parts in town, can accomplish anything, if only the parent would get involved, set high standards, show up at the school and let the kids SEE them showing up.


In the South.... it is a "learned helplessness." Until the late 70s and early 80s, adults did not exactly need

a HS education to work in a factory. Now they're almost all gone. And those people have GREAT trouble

finding a job now (last 30 years) because these new jobs require skills and reading above a forth grade level.

Do these parents go back and get their GED? No... they're embarrassed to. Then their kids are learning

math at grade three... which was not taught to the prior generation until eighth grade.

It is an imprinted helpless feeling. The cycle has yet to be broken. I had a horrid math teacher in 7th

grade. I loved math... until then. I struggled in math for years. 

Not until I started teaching did I go back and firmly catch up on math.


----------



## just got it 55

Sammy64 said:


> Seen a couple of flags in this...


Yeah.... The Mets thing bothers me too :laugh:

Grid you will be fine

55


----------



## jld

Grid, I see you chose an avatar. Would you like to explain its significance?


----------



## LongWalk

Come on, jld. Surely you recognize the photo from the television series the Honeymooners.








The screen shot is from 



> *A Woman's Work Is Never Done* 1955
> 
> When Ralph pooh-poohs Alice's insistence that housework is indeed work, she decides to get a real job so that she can hire a maid. Several amusing plot twists later, the Kramden apartment is invaded by a statuesque domestic named Thelma (Betty Garde), who claims to be too "sickly" to do any of the heavy work. Ralph eventually fires Thelma plus three other maids, and as a result, it is Ralph and Norton who end up doing all the housework -- with the usual chaotic results. Honeymooners stock player Frank Marth appears as Mr. Wilson, head of the employment agency. First telecast October 22, 1955, "A Woman's Work is Never Done" was written by Marvin Marx and Walter Stone.


The idea of Ralph and Alice Kramden (Jackie Gleason and Audrey Meadows) having sex (or children) is a bit repulsive. The Honeymooners is a good example of people staying together in a hot and cold co-dependent relationship. Alice would be thoroughly justified in divorcing Ralf but the irrationality of her putting up with his verbal abuse is one of the edgy parts of the show. She has zero respect for him. In real life she would have cheated on him or divorced him.

I take this as an example of Grid's healthy sense of humor, which is also apparent in the thread title. His wife "thinks" she is in love with another man. Given that Grid knew that she didn't just think she was in love with OM but was and had actually gone all the way with him, Grid might be suggesting that like Ralf Kramden, he is going to triumph over marital adversity.

I don't know if the Honeymooners ever had an episode in which Ralph suspected Alice of having an affair, but you can be sure that he would have chased her and begged for the marriage, blustered and abused her, etc. It would have been a hilarious failure.

Jld,
Have you never watched the show?


----------



## pidge70

Or......he could just like the show.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Anon Pink

Or he identifies with the way Ralph, regardless of his wife's feelings, insists on getting things his way while Alice, somewhat desensitized to his abrasive blustering threats, "To the moon, Alice!" rolls her eyes and finds a sneaky way to get back at him.


----------



## Pluto2

Good thing people aren't projecting on sweet Grid's thread.

And I am not a Met's fan.


----------



## just got it 55

Anon Pink said:


> Or he identifies with the way Ralph, regardless of his wife's feelings, insists on getting things his way while Alice, somewhat desensitized to his abrasive blustering threats, "To the moon, Alice!" rolls her eyes *and finds a sneaky way to get back at him.*


Yup she sure did that

I guess she showed him

55


----------



## Anon Pink

just got it 55 said:


> Yup she sure did that
> 
> I guess she showed him
> 
> 55


Right. That's what I've been saying. I doubt very much she is in love with this OM. She's operating from a place of resentment so deep it might not even be possible to work through it all and get to the other side.

My guess is that her resentment started long before she even knew grid.


----------



## farsidejunky

Anon Pink said:


> My guess is that her resentment started long before she even knew grid.


Can you expand on this, AP?


----------



## ConanHub

Anon Pink said:


> Right. That's what I've been saying. I doubt very much she is in love with this OM. She's operating from a place of resentment so deep it might not even be possible to work through it all and get to the other side.
> 
> My guess is that her resentment started long before she even knew grid.


Good catch.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Anon Pink

farsidejunky said:


> Can you expand on this, AP?


What she did, coming home right after she had sex for the first time with OM and rubbing it in grid's face, was an intentionally vicious move. I mean beyond getting back at him, beyond being really angry at him for a really long time. Unless grid has understated the level of abusiveness and bullying he did to her, this woman came into the marriage resenting and angry. You don't build that level of viciousness toward the man you married, the man who fathered your children, the man you sleep next to night after night without some serious abuse and cold hearted manipulation over a long enough period of time. 

A man who can be that abusive and that coldly manipulative is NOT a man who owns his sh!t. But Grid owned his side of the street. Then he went a step farther by hearing what JLD and LifeIsTooShort were telling him. He is a man who owns his side of the street so I don't see him as a man capable of the level of abuse that would take a wife from a place of loving to a place of cold hatred.

If she hated him, him personally, she would have rubbed it in his face then left. Although she says she wants out, she sure as hell isn't doing much to make that happen. So, that leads me to think she doesn't actually hate him. 

She is willing to go to Retrouvaille. This from a woman who happily rubbed her affair in his face? 

I think she has a long history of feeling bullied and powerless and when grid bullied her she lumped it all into one basket and it was all grid's fault. Then she begins a relationship with this OM who is nothing like all the bullies she's ever known. This pissed her off even more because she wanted this from her husband, not this OM.

But, I think, she still loves grid. I think she is coming to understand that what she did to grid was not at all equal to what she felt he had done to her. I think grid's following plan A has unruffled her feathers, lowered her hackles and she can glimpse that her husband could be what she needs him to be. I think when she finally does open her eyes to the viciousness of her actions she will have a very very hard time ever forgiving herself even long after grid forgives her.

However, I am probably way off base and need to get back to creative writing before I hurt myself or others.


----------



## Chaparral

Grids wife is confused about the difference in love and infatuation.

Have sex with her as often as possible. Love chemicals flow both ways though they wear off the longer a couple is together, thus infatuation with others and infidelity.

Is the posom still sending her love songs?


----------



## Evinrude58

Anon Pink said:


> What she did, coming home right after she had sex for the first time with OM and rubbing it in grid's face, was an intentionally vicious move. I mean beyond getting back at him, beyond being really angry at him for a really long time. Unless grid has understated the level of abusiveness and bullying he did to her, this woman came into the marriage resenting and angry. You don't build that level of viciousness toward the man you married, the man who fathered your children, the man you sleep next to night after night without some serious abuse and cold hearted manipulation over a long enough period of time.
> 
> *A man who can be that abusive and that coldly manipulative is NOT a man who owns his sh!t. But Grid owned his side of the street. Then he went a step farther by hearing what JLD and LifeIsTooShort were telling him. He is a man who owns his side of the street so I don't see him as a man capable of the level of abuse that would take a wife from a place of loving to a place of cold hatred.*
> 
> If she hated him, him personally, she would have rubbed it in his face then left. *Although she says she wants out, she sure as hell isn't doing much to make that happen.* So, that leads me to think she doesn't actually hate him.
> 
> She is willing to go to Retrouvaille. This from a woman who happily rubbed her affair in his face?
> 
> I think she has a long history of feeling bullied and powerless and when grid bullied her she lumped it all into one basket and it was all grid's fault. Then she begins a relationship with this OM who is nothing like all the bullies she's ever known. This pissed her off even more because she wanted this from her husband, not this OM.
> 
> But, I think, she still loves grid. I think she is coming to understand that what she did to grid was not at all equal to what she felt he had done to her. I think grid's following plan A has unruffled her feathers, lowered her hackles and she can glimpse that her husband could be what she needs him to be. I think when she finally does open her eyes to the viciousness of her actions she will have a very very hard time ever forgiving herself even long after grid forgives her.
> 
> However, I am probably way off base and need to get back to creative writing before I hurt myself or others.



I wholeheartedly agree with the purple comment.
The rest I'm skeptical of.
She told Grid she was only staying for the money and the kids. She then filed for divorce. I think that's a darned big step! The only reason she's staying with Grid, by her own account, is that the OM won't support her and she has no place to go...... yet.
He hasn't been that "cruel" and "abusive" to her, I think. The woman is not some psychologically disturbed individual. She's just a normal person with weak character. That's all this amounts to.
Greener freaking grass is my analysis. Whether she decides her current grass is good enough and falls in love with it's taste again is the only real question here, methinks. I think the odds are in favor of her wanting the new, seemingly far tastier grass. 
I hope she decides that all grass is just grass.


----------



## LongWalk

AnonPink's speculation is quite logical and Grid will probably agree. Kolor's ex, LostLove's also fit this pattern. And if AnonPink's analysis is right, Grid's wife will need therapy to figure out how to stop her co-dependent resentment.


----------



## gridcom

She mentioned to me that she saw him with another woman. I asked her if that bothered her. She told me no. Now, this is the same woman who had this POS's birth date as her iphone passcode just 3 months ago.

Anyway, she requested a song on her favorite station yesterday. here are some of the lyrics:

_"The way your freight train rocks the coal cars
The way a river carves its bed
The way a hand fits inside a pocket
That is how you live in my head.

If I had known I would miss you like this
I would have made movies of every kiss."_

I was insulted by this. She insisted that it was "just a song" and that I was reading too much into it. As if him posting songs on his Spotify Playlist dedicated to her and then her requsting the same songs a day later NEVER HAPPENED

AS IF.

Yes, he is still posting songs on his Spotify Playlist.
New songs include

Beach House - "Take Care" w/ the following lyrics:
_"I'd take care of you if you'd ask me to
In a year or two"_

Muse- "Madness" w/ the following lyrics
_"I can't get these memories out of my mind
And some kind of madness has started to evolve
I, I tried so hard to let you go
But some kind of madness is swallowing me whole, yeah"_

Guster - "Satellite" NOTE : THIS BAND BLOWS, DOESN'T IT?
lyrical highlights:
_"Maybe you will always be
Just a little out of reach"_

Pixes- "Winterlong" w/ the following lyrics
_"I waited for you winterlong
You seemed to be where I belong
It's all illusion anyway
If things should ever turn out wrong
And all the love we have is gone
It won't be easy
On that day"_

Anyway, now I must HATE the Pixies, which is a shame since I used to like them

And the funny thing is she still INSISTS that the now 30 song Playlist where she was the ONLY Follower, the Playlist that started literally a few days before D-Day, the Playlist where every single song has the same lyrical theme, the same Playlist that he'd post a song and then she'd request it the next day, she INSISTS that Playlist is not meant for her and that the lyrical thread from song to song is only a coincidence. She says that "EVERY song is a love song except for the Zappa song where he sings about Vegetables" I quote here because this is her quote.

I'm dealing with a lunatic. Is this Gaslighting here? I mean, it's pretty obvious no?

I have about had it. How long until Retrouvaille? I don't know if I can last. I seriously just want to move the f*ck out.


----------



## gridcom

regarding The Honeymooners

How Ralph Kramden looks in that pic, that's how I feel.

Plus, it was a great show. And I disagree about Alice. He LOVED her. She knew it. Say what you want, and I guess we can make a case study about The Honeymooners, but I always felt like they had real love between them, even when he was being a d^ck.


----------



## jld

gridcom said:


> regarding The Honeymooners
> 
> How Ralph Kramden looks in that pic, that's how I feel.
> 
> Plus, it was a great show. And I disagree about Alice. He LOVED her. She knew it. Say what you want, and I guess we can make a case study about The Honeymooners, but I always felt like they had real love between them, even when he was being a d^ck.


I would agree with that.


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> She mentioned to me that she saw him with another woman. I asked her if that bothered her. She told me no. Now, this is the same woman who had this POS's birth date as her iphone passcode just 3 months ago.
> 
> Anyway, she requested a song on her favorite station yesterday. here are some of the lyrics:
> 
> _"The way your freight train rocks the coal cars
> The way a river carves its bed
> The way a hand fits inside a pocket
> That is how you live in my head.
> 
> If I had known I would miss you like this
> I would have made movies of every kiss."_
> 
> I was insulted by this. She insisted that it was "just a song" and that I was reading too much into it. As if him posting songs on his Spotify Playlist dedicated to her and then her requsting the same songs a day later NEVER HAPPENED
> 
> AS IF.
> 
> Yes, he is still posting songs on his Spotify Playlist.
> New songs include
> 
> Beach House - "Take Care" w/ the following lyrics:
> _"I'd take care of you if you'd ask me to
> In a year or two"_
> 
> Muse- "Madness" w/ the following lyrics
> _"I can't get these memories out of my mind
> And some kind of madness has started to evolve
> I, I tried so hard to let you go
> But some kind of madness is swallowing me whole, yeah"_
> 
> Guster - "Satellite" NOTE : THIS BAND BLOWS, DOESN'T IT?
> lyrical highlights:
> _"Maybe you will always be
> Just a little out of reach"_
> 
> Pixes- "Winterlong" w/ the following lyrics
> _"I waited for you winterlong
> You seemed to be where I belong
> It's all illusion anyway
> If things should ever turn out wrong
> And all the love we have is gone
> It won't be easy
> On that day"_
> 
> Anyway, now I must HATE the Pixies, which is a shame since I used to like them
> 
> And the funny thing is she still INSISTS that the now 30 song Playlist where she was the ONLY Follower, the Playlist that started literally a few days before D-Day, the Playlist where every single song has the same lyrical theme, the same Playlist that he'd post a song and then she'd request it the next day, she INSISTS that Playlist is not meant for her and that the lyrical thread from song to song is only a coincidence. She says that "EVERY song is a love song except for the Zappa song where he sings about Vegetables" I quote here because this is her quote.
> 
> I'm dealing with a lunatic. Is this Gaslighting here? I mean, it's pretty obvious no?
> 
> I have about had it. How long until Retrouvaille? I don't know if I can last. I seriously just want to move the f*ck out.



fVCK tHAT sH*T.........NO WAY I COULD PUT UP WITH THAT MESS

I GUESS I'M TOO WEAK OF A MAN


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Click.

Next phase, Grid.

Yes you should be angry and fed up. Sorry about your wife's poor judgement -and ongoing poor judgement- and its impact on your family.

Not sorry you are moving through the stages of grief.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

gridcom said:


> regarding The Honeymooners
> 
> How Ralph Kramden looks in that pic, that's how I feel.
> 
> Plus, it was a great show. And I disagree about Alice. He LOVED her. She knew it. Say what you want, and I guess we can make a case study about The Honeymooners, but I always felt like they had real love between them, even when he was being a d^ck.


Yeah that was my take too... But I put the blame on her too for her complete disrespect for him. He was just a bumbling, incompetent, take-the-easy-way-out loser who ALWAYS paid for his screw ups. She was far worse - she was downright MEAN. No excuse for that IMO


----------



## gridcom

ButtPunch said:


> fVCK tHAT sH*T.........NO WAY I COULD PUT UP WITH THAT MESS
> 
> I GUESS I'M TOO WEAK OF A MAN


I'm here for my kids. That's all. 

I wake up every morning being positive. I want to give my best effort in making things better, and then EVERY DAY at some point is some diss, some dismissive action, some insult. EVERY DAY.

And, you say I am strong. But, I'm not strong enough to turn the other cheek when this stuff happens


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Your not our lord and savior. No need to turn any cheeks. BTW that reference isn't about how the one person who chose you to spend their life with treats you. They shouldn't be slapping the first cheek...


----------



## turnera

Give examples of the disses, dismissive actions, insults. Maybe we can help you react to them in a way that will get her to stop.


----------



## Pluto2

gridcom said:


> Is this Gaslighting here? I mean, it's pretty obvious no?


Yep. sounds like gaslighting.

The question is whether you want to do anything about this now, or if you want to hold your tongue for three weeks. And if you want to be a tongue-holder watch your growing resentment level at being lied to again.


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> I'm here for my kids. That's all.
> 
> I wake up every morning being positive. I want to give my best effort in making things better, and then EVERY DAY at some point is some diss, some dismissive action, some insult. EVERY DAY.
> 
> And, you say I am strong. But, I'm not strong enough to turn the other cheek when this stuff happens


My sympathies. You can still be a great father and not have to take disrespectful sh*t from your cheater wife but in the interest of Plan A you need to find a way to deal


----------



## jld

gridcom said:


> And, you say I am strong. But, I'm not strong enough to turn the other cheek when this stuff happens


This kind of honesty is why I believe in you, and in your marriage, grid. You are indeed a good man, albeit, like all men, imperfect.


----------



## Anon Pink

@Evinrude58,


You don't think she is disturbed? From what grid just posted and if what you say is accurate, she is indeed disturbed. How did she get from loving him to hating him? It's one thing to fall for another guy but she is taking this to an intentionally vicious level and that needs to be understood.


----------



## Evinrude58

I think she is just a poor lost soul that needs a strong man to show her empathy and heal her, and show her how much he loves her and is willing to be better man.

Sorry, couldn't help it.

I just think she has a childish, selfish, love affair going. She said she was in love with him for a year. She told Grid because she wanted him to divorce her so she could be with the other man.
I don't see anything that is disturbed. Just a woman in love that has little conscience and will show Grid the hard way how to get the better end of a divorce settlement if he lets his anger get HER riled up. He needs to get his stuff together on the divorce. If he doesn't, her lawyer will. He will get taken to the cleaners. Our advice should be for Grid to take care of that as best as he can. She may get over the dude, but by then, he won't want her back. My opinion and my crystal ball. Hoping I've got it all wrong.


----------



## gridcom

We are going to a mediator before Retrouvaille. We both agree that we want to get the agreement in place BEFORE the retreat. 

I think about the fact that two nights after D-Day, when she didnt get the reaction she wanted from me (which, I suppose, was to pack up and move right on out on impact) that she stayed out late, got drunk, drove home semi-drunk, came up into my office, and told me that she WANTED TO HURT ME. 

I think, looking back, that night was more painful than D-Day itself.


----------



## Evinrude58

If you're taking care of that stuff, then I think you are in position to do the best you can, and have done the absolutely correct thing. You will get through this one way or another. I know how crushing it is every day, believe me. It will only get better when you accept it. But it will get exponentially better every month after. Try not to act out of anger.
Praying for you.


----------



## Anon Pink

Evinrude58 said:


> I just think she has a childish, selfish, love affair going. She said she was in love with him for a year. She told Grid because she wanted him to divorce her so she could be with the other man.
> I don't see anything that is disturbed. *Just a woman in love that has little conscience* and will show Grid the hard way how to get the better end of a divorce settlement if he lets his anger get HER riled up. He needs to get his stuff together on the divorce. If he doesn't, her lawyer will. He will get taken to the cleaners. Our advice should be for Grid to take care of that as best as he can. She may get over the dude, but by then, he won't want her back. My opinion and my crystal ball. Hoping I've got it all wrong.



Which is it?

A woman in love or a woman with little conscience?

Please understand that being in love doesn't not turn a person from decent to evil.

Was she always evil?

What has made her want to hurt grid over and over and over?

"Just a woman in love..." No. Duplicitous? Cruel? Cunning?

Is she really trying to goad him into some type of violence from which she gains the upper hand in a divorce? I don't see that.

What has made her become so hateful?


----------



## Anon Pink

gridcom said:


> We are going to a mediator before Retrouvaille. We both agree that we want to get the agreement in place BEFORE the retreat.
> 
> I think about the fact that two nights after D-Day, when she didnt get the reaction she wanted from me (which, I suppose, was to pack up and move right on out on impact) that she stayed out late, got drunk, drove home semi-drunk, came up into my office, and told me that she WANTED TO HURT ME.
> 
> I think, looking back, that night was more painful than D-Day itself.


Why? Why does she want to hurt you?


----------



## farsidejunky

gridcom said:


> We are going to a mediator before Retrouvaille. We both agree that we want to get the agreement in place BEFORE the retreat.
> 
> I think about the fact that two nights after D-Day, when she didnt get the reaction she wanted from me (which, I suppose, was to pack up and move right on out on impact) that she stayed out late, got drunk, drove home semi-drunk, came up into my office, and told me that she WANTED TO HURT ME.
> 
> I think, looking back, that night was more painful than D-Day itself.


And should tell you everything you need to know.

AP has your wife nailed.

You are now her lightning rod for anything that is wrong in her life.

She will be screwed if you leave her.

You will be screwed if you stay.

Unless she gets help. But it may take too long to untangle. 

Make sure you have a hard deadline date and stick to it. When someone wants to self destruct bad enough, they cannot be stopped by anyone but themselves.


----------



## ButtPunch

I think it's pretty common for a WS to vilify their spouse. I see it on almost every 
infidelity thread. 

It seems to be way more common than the "What have I done?" instantly remorseful WS.


----------



## Anon Pink

ButtPunch said:


> I think it's pretty common for a WS to vilify their spouse. I see it on almost every
> infidelity thread. It is way more common than the "What have I done?" instantly remorseful WS.


Ugh, once again... TAM is not an accurate assessment tool.


----------



## ButtPunch

farsidejunky said:


> AP has your wife nailed.
> 
> You are now her lightning rod for anything that is wrong in her life.
> 
> .


Just like most every infidelity thread we read. This situation is no different. My wife did the same to me.


----------



## ButtPunch

Anon Pink said:


> Ugh, once again... TAM is not an accurate assessment tool.


What does that even mean? Yet your zero infidelity experience somehow gives you some keen clairvoyance to read Grid's wifes mind. Give me a break. 

Cheater with FOO issues, they are pretty common here.


----------



## LongWalk

Missed your last post, but what I wrote still stands.

Morituri predicted that anger and resentment would become an obstacle to reconciliation. I did not think that making it to Retrouvaille would be easy for you. It sounds like OM is involved with another woman to dull his pain. Tells you a lot about his character. Wishy washy and manipulative. Sad that your wife sees so much in him. The two of them share an opinion. Their love was great but it was ill fated because of circumstances (children, economics and the needy jerk husband) in their opinion.

Don't you think that asking your wife about her reaction to OM's betrayal puts you in an odd position? Should she seek your sympathy for the lost love? How can that be healthy for your relationship?

Why not draw up the plan for divorce? What are the missing parts of the filing that you two have both done? Why not add them to yours and let the court inform her? After all, what is point of Retrouvaille if she is going while humming OM's play list in her head. (Good that you go to mediation before the retreat. Also, it is good that she is agreeable to mediation.)

You can downgrade the Pixies if necessary but remember Kim Deal quit the band because Black Francis refused to share the limelight with her while she deserved room as a song writer. Today he admits that without her the Pixies are not the Pixies. Deal knew when to stop taking shyt. 

Your wife will love and respect you more if you love and respect yourself. The question is whether she is going to make the necessary effort to get out of the victim's chair and fight her depression. She sounds apathetic. It's not about you.


----------



## Pluto2

When I was dealing with my WS, his anger towards me and our kids was frightening at times. Eventually, it came down to the fact that my continued presence in his life was keeping him from what he wanted, and what he wanted was me not being a part of his life. 

At that point the whys became pretty irrelevant. But that's just what I dealt with and certainly doesn't mean everyone responds the same way.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

ButtPunch said:


> I think it's pretty common for a WS to vilify their spouse. I see it on almost every
> infidelity thread.
> 
> It seems to be way more common than the "What have I done?" instantly remorseful WS.


Exactly


----------



## truster

Anon Pink said:


> Ugh, once again... TAM is not an accurate assessment tool.


Pointing out that it is a skewed sample is an accurate criticism -- but to say the sample is *wrong* requires another, more accurate measurement. Absent that, a skewed map is more accurate than no map at all.


----------



## turnera

grid, I know how to make your wife happy.

Move out, go live in a cardboard box, give up your kids, and let her move her lover in the house, but don't quit your job because you have to give her all your money for the rest of her life.


----------



## truster

gridcom said:


> I'm here for my kids. That's all.
> 
> I wake up every morning being positive. I want to give my best effort in making things better, and then EVERY DAY at some point is some diss, some dismissive action, some insult. EVERY DAY.
> 
> And, you say I am strong. But, I'm not strong enough to turn the other cheek when this stuff happens


I'm sure we covered it previously in this massive thread, and I've just forgotten, but.. how sure are you that staying is the right choice for your kids?

I had the same feeling in the very early days, but -- the more I read the less I believed it. I've come to the conclusion that a good strong parent (and hopefully two), is more important than whether they're married or not. Maybe that's just a self-serving interpretation, but it's not like there's a scientific consensus on the issues. There are a few studies correlating divorce and various measures of child success, but they can't separate correlation from causation. That is to say, there is no way for them to set up the research to figure out whether a divorce is likely to cause trouble for otherwise good parents, or whether bad parents are just more likely to also divorce. Personally, the latter interpretation seems more likely to me.. it's easy to me to think that a selfish person who was a bad parent would also be a bad spouse.


----------



## Chuck71

Grid.... when you are present she can blame you for every short coming in her life... yes even ones before you

met her. If someone wants to believe something hard enough, a reason they will find. My XW during the 60

day wait blamed me for all of her NSF charges. Well... Chucky stopped doing her books when the

DDay occurred. She blamed me for "hiding" all of her passwords to her 11 credit cards.

She was collecting NSF charges already without paying her bills.... yeah I'm sure she intended to pay those.

My reply, "It never stopped you from calling each credit card to see what available credit was left. I'm quite

certain you are capable of calling these and working out arrangements." 

In Shawshank Redemption... Morgan Freeman said it best... "Get busy living or get busy dying."


----------



## Chuck71

turnera said:


> grid, I know how to make your wife happy.
> 
> Move out, go live in a cardboard box, give up your kids, and let her move her lover in the house, but don't quit your job because you have to give her all your money for the rest of her life.


But you would get your kids sometimes...... when THEY wanted to go out on the town


----------



## ThreeStrikes

From an objective perspective:

1.) Mrs. Grid agreed to go to Retro to placate Grid

2.) Mrs. Grid has sex with Grid to placate Grid.

Mrs. Grid's other actions don't align with a remorseful and apologetic WS. 

Refuses IC. Still in contact with posOM. No apology. Filed for D.

From what Grid has described, Mrs. Grid is most likely not personality disordered. She is definitely still in the fog, though.

(want to get her out? press for D as quickly as possible)

But its not really Grid's job to figure her out. It's her therapist's job.

Oh wait, she doesn't think she needs a therapist. Because there's nothing inherently wrong with her:scratchhead:


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Anon Pink said:


> Ugh, once again... TAM is not an accurate assessment tool.


Curious, what is your assessment tool?


----------



## Chuck71

ThreeStrikes said:


> Curious, what is your assessment tool?


Cue the Facts of Life theme

You take the good, you take the bad, you take them both

and there you have the TAM advice, the TAM advice


----------



## gridcom

You guys are all great today. Thank you.


----------



## ButtPunch

[/size]


gridcom said:


> you guys are all great today. Thank you.


step 1.......the 180


----------



## LongWalk

Yes, the 180.

And Mrs Grid is not stupid. She is capable of introspection even if she is resistant to self criticism.

The 180 means not having sex.

It does allow for mediation.


----------



## Evinrude58

Anon Pink said:


> Which is it?
> 
> A woman in love or a woman with little conscience?
> 
> Please understand that being in love doesn't not turn a person from decent to evil.
> 
> Was she always evil?
> 
> What has made her want to hurt grid over and over and over?
> 
> "Just a woman in love..." No. Duplicitous? Cruel? Cunning?
> 
> Is she really trying to goad him into some type of violence from which she gains the upper hand in a divorce? I don't see that.
> 
> What has made her become so hateful?


I don't think that it's either/or "in love" or "little conscience". I think she is in love, BECAUSE she has/had LITTLE CONSCIENCE. She had little conscience to let herself get involved/pursue this OM. SHe HAS little conscience because she continues to pursue him indirectly, doesn't care that her selfish desires have resulted in a loss of the love she had for her husband, and that her daughter will lose time with one or the other parent when/if they divorce.

What has made her hurt Grid over and over is her lack of giving a sh#t whether it hurts him or not. She only responds in a hurtful way when he pushes her to make a decision, or stresses her in any way-- as far as I can tell. The hurtful thing she did telling him she cheated was for the purpose of getting him to divorce her, at least I believe. 
I don't think it was for the purpose of her conscience because if it was, she would have said OMG I am so sorry and changed her ways. She has not done that at all. She filed for divorce.

I don't believe her to be totally devoid of conscience, just very little of it. She has some, that's why she, at the moment, is not screwing him over on the divorce. She doesn't hate Grid, or she wouldn't have sex with him. She, like my ex, doesn't hate him because he really hasn't been so bad and he has taken good care of her. I really believe she knows that he is a good guy. BUT, she doesn't love him. I believe that to be her fault, but what difference does it make if she can't fall in love with him again?

I am too close to this stuff--- it does trigger a lot of pain for me, because I see such incredibly close similarities. My ex came to my room at work yesterday and talked for an hour about kid stuff, about how I should claim all responsibility for our divorce because it was all my fault. That I should be happy she's getting married and I should move on (I'm like, duh, I AM moving on.) Said she treated me so good in the divorce.... She was FAIR, because I acted fast while she still felt guilty. She later tried to get a lawyer and screw me over. I mentioned that and she just kinda blew that part off, LOL.

I do think you guys are over-thinking something pretty sad and pretty simple. But I am still trying to learn and still enjoy reading your posts, whether I agree or not. I think Grid is moving past all the psychological drama with his wife that is being suggested he consider, and seeing the reality of it all. I personally think that is TOTALLY healthy and that he is healing as a result.

After all he has said, I am thinking more and more that a divorce is the best option for his happiness. This lady just WILL NOT demonstrate that she is sorry that this has happened, and that she will STOP thinking about and chasing this other man. He is absolutely right on about the music crap. If she was interested in requesting songs for her husband which she pooped on, she would request a song that was about the love for a husband. It was all about her lost love for the other man, which will soon turn back to found-again love I'm afraid. This woman is NOT looking for reconciliation, and everyone here knows it. I hate it, but she isn't.
I'm very sorry Grid.


----------



## anchorwatch

Grid, The 180 is to detach and move forward preparing for your life without her. It's not to be meant for some dread game of chicken. Is that what you want or will you wait out the few weeks left till Retro? Either way the Mexican standoff will end. You can always walk away later. Coming back won't be uncomplicated. 

How are you sleeping? 

Best


----------



## Pluto2

Actaully Grid, how are you sleeping? Have you made any progress in that?

Are you exercising and eating real food?


----------



## ButtPunch

anchorwatch said:


> Grid, The 180 is to detach and move forward preparing for your life without her. It's not to be meant for some dread game of chicken. Is that what you want or will you wait out the few weeks left till Retro? Either way the Mexican standoff will end. You can always walk away later. Coming back won't be uncomplicated.
> 
> How are you sleeping?
> 
> Best



I do agree with this. The 180 should be postponed until Retro at the least. Go in with an open mind.


----------



## gridcom

I tell her often that I suspect that she will only really feel the first pangs of consequence when the moving truck with my stuff in it is moving down the street and my kids walk in and realize this is for real. I really do believe, in my heart of hearts, that that's what it it's going to take. And I also know (and fear) that once I get to that point, there is no turning back form me. Two pendulums swinging back and forth out of synch.

I slept better the past two nights. I exercise every day (either 42 minutes on an Eliptical or a 4.2 mile walk) and I eat healthy, but I over eat so I am overweight. But, a healthy overweight if that exists. 

Retrouvaille is it for me. If we can't get in synch then, and I mean legitimately in synch not that phony "for the kids" crap, then I really don't see making it beyond that at all. Retrouvaille includes 6 follow ups every Saturday and we are committed to that, and that ends Jan 2. I can see moving out right around that time if it doesn't work out. My wife thinks, for some reason, that I'll just move down the road, but I would move into NYC where my office is. I don't think she likes that but it's not her life to manage. I have thought a lot about divorce and I focus a lot on it being my reality and the more that time goes by and the more I accept it as likely scenario #1, it becomes much easier and dare I say there are things about it that I'd prefer than to deal with staying in a marriage with a persn who has no remorse and has admitted that she could do it again.


----------



## Evinrude58

You are thinking and feeling things a healthy person would feel, and acting in ways that reflect the same. I pray this Retrouvaille thing is as good as people say. Maybe things will work out. If so, and you truly heal your marriage, I don't think she would feel the same about the "I could do it again" comment. Try to work through your anger so you can give it a real shot at the retrovuialle thing. I have no doubt you'll know the answer after that point in January.
Glad you're sleeping. That is surely an important matter.


----------



## gridcom

I was going to also say that I look kinda like a younger version of Ralph Kramden if he listened to Frank Zappa and punk rock all his life, but I just learned that Jackie Gleason was 40 when they filmed the Honeymooners, so that makes him younger than I am when he filmed it. Which scares the crap out of me.

EDIT: And I also have more clothing options than him, but barely


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> I tell her often that I suspect that she will only really feel the first pangs of consequence when the moving truck with my stuff in it is moving down the street and my kids walk in and realize this is for real.


Stop this.....This is controlling codependent behavior. You are not going to convince her of anything until it happens and it is wishful thinking on your part. This is not plan A or the 180. It is weak behavior in your WW's eyes. 

Stop talking and start doing.


----------



## farsidejunky

ButtPunch said:


> Stop this.....This is controlling codependent behavior. You are not going to convince her of anything until it happens and it is wishful thinking on your part. This is not plan A or the 180. It is weak behavior in your WW's eyes.
> 
> Stop talking and start doing.


QFT.

Grid, I would stop talking about your relationship at all unless she initiates the dialogue.

Then I would limit my interactions to short, simple, and direct statements.

"I am not okay with taking the blame for your choices."

"I am sorry you feel the need to make your choices my responsibility."

When she disagrees and tries to a start an argument:

"I see it differently." Then just walk away. 

These statements are powerful. They demonstrate how resolute you are in your stance, and point a mirror at her when she tries to make you the source of her unhappiness. 

This is the third or fourth time I have posted these on here. Are you using them?

These statements are powerful, Grid.


----------



## gridcom

farsidejunky said:


> QFT.
> 
> Grid, I would stop talking about your relationship at all unless she initiates the dialogue.
> 
> Then I would limit my interactions to short, simple, and direct statements.
> 
> "I am not okay with taking the blame for your choices."
> 
> "I am sorry you feel the need to make your choices my responsibility."
> 
> When she disagrees and tries to a start an argument:
> 
> "I see it differently." Then just walk away.
> 
> These statements are powerful. They demonstrate how resolute you are in your stance, and point a mirror at her when she tries to make you the source of her unhappiness.
> 
> This is the third or fourth time I have posted these on here. Are you using them?
> 
> These statements are powerful, Grid.


it's about time this starts happening, I agree


----------



## gridcom

cbnero said:


> I went to Retro. Ayatollah flipped a lid and made us leave the first night. I was at the same stage as you. Doing the same stuff you are doing.
> 
> Retro is NOT for couples where 1 is still actively in an affair. And your wife is. Maybe not PA currently that you can find. But emotionally.
> 
> Personally I wouldn't waste the time going. Put up a boundary. Let her go. Wish her well. Make her earn it. You have put up zero boundaries and zero consequences.
> 
> Only talk, talk, and more talk of threats.
> Talk is cheap, it takes money to buy whiskey.
> 
> Sorry but your wife sucks a fat one. Kick her to the curb.


I'm curious why she made you leave the first night. This is one thing I am thinking about. The whole thing is centered around communication, yes? And that's a big issue here, for sure. Neither one of us communicates well. I CAN communicate well if I am not off balance. My wife, when it comes to any sort of real talk, will get louder and change the subject as soon as the dialogue isn't going the way she wants it to go. She would much rather walk away screaming nonsense than answer a tough question honestly. And I mean that literally. And that's not just a recent thing, but all through time. 

I have wondered if part of this thing is making people hang in there to confront truth's about themselves and their relationships. If that's the center of Retrouvaille, then I fear my wife will also flip out and want to leave. She doesn't like being cornered to where she has to admit anything to anyone ever.

She's definitely a "I'd rather die on the hill than give you the satisfaction of making a good point"

And I don't say that in any way with a chip on my shoulder or out of frustration. Well, OK, yes I do say it partly out of frustration. But, it's also strangely true. She'll bail before she has to verbally go somewhere that makes her look at herself in a way that she's not comfortable

Pretty much the opposite of me in that regard.

To be fair, she is never mean about it (except for the time after D-Day when she just laid into me and told me she wanted to hurt me. that was one notable exception) But that doesnt mean she isnt banana's


----------



## Anon Pink

@Evinrude58,

It seems the important component is adequate remorseful behavior. She sure isn't showing it. We agree on this. We disagree on why.

I don't think expecting it is out of line at all, I just don't think it's realistic right now. She is still acting hateful.

I suspect that by the end of the Retrouvaille weekend grid will be able to see some remorse. In fact, if he doesn't see any remorse at all by the end of that weekend, he should just end the marriage there. Because those follow up sessions are nowhere near as deep and intense as the original weekend.


----------



## Anon Pink

gridcom said:


> I'm curious why she made you leave the first night. This is one thing I am thinking about. The whole thing is centered around communication, yes? And that's a big issue here, for sure. Neither one of us communicates well. I CAN communicate well if I am not off balance. My wife, when it comes to any sort of real talk, will get louder and change the subject as soon as the dialogue isn't going the way she wants it to go. She would much rather walk away screaming nonsense than answer a tough question honestly. And I mean that literally. And that's not just a recent thing, but all through time.
> 
> I have wondered if part of this thing is making people hang in there to confront truth's about themselves and their relationships. If that's the center of Retrouvaille, then I fear my wife will also flip out and want to leave. She doesn't like being cornered to where she has to admit anything to anyone ever.
> 
> She's definitely a "I'd rather die on the hill than give you the satisfaction of making a good point"
> 
> And I don't say that in any way with a chip on my shoulder or out of frustration. Well, OK, yes I do say it partly out of frustration. But, it's also strangely true. *She'll bail before she has to verbally go somewhere that makes her look at herself in a way that she's not comfortable*
> 
> Pretty much the opposite of me in that regard.
> 
> To be fair, she is never mean about it (except for the time after D-Day when she just laid into me and told me she wanted to hurt me. that was one notable exception) But that doesnt mean she isnt banana's


The bolded part doesn't bode well but doesn't mean it's hopeless either.

The communication method they teach is not in itself challenging.

Have you considered that your verbal style stymies her ability to articulate? Doesn't matter anyway because their method won't be affected by stubbornness or verbal intimidation.


----------



## bfree

gridcom said:


> I'm curious why she made you leave the first night. This is one thing I am thinking about. The whole thing is centered around communication, yes? And that's a big issue here, for sure. Neither one of us communicates well. I CAN communicate well if I am not off balance. My wife, when it comes to any sort of real talk, will get louder and change the subject as soon as the dialogue isn't going the way she wants it to go. She would much rather walk away screaming nonsense than answer a tough question honestly. And I mean that literally. And that's not just a recent thing, but all through time.
> 
> I have wondered if part of this thing is making people hang in there to confront truth's about themselves and their relationships. If that's the center of Retrouvaille, then I fear my wife will also flip out and want to leave. She doesn't like being cornered to where she has to admit anything to anyone ever.
> 
> She's definitely a "I'd rather die on the hill than give you the satisfaction of making a good point"
> 
> And I don't say that in any way with a chip on my shoulder or out of frustration. Well, OK, yes I do say it partly out of frustration. But, it's also strangely true. She'll bail before she has to verbally go somewhere that makes her look at herself in a way that she's not comfortable
> 
> Pretty much the opposite of me in that regard.
> 
> To be fair, she is never mean about it (except for the time after D-Day when she just laid into me and told me she wanted to hurt me. that was one notable exception) But that doesnt mean she isnt banana's


In reading this description of your wife I tend to agree with Anon that your wife has harbored resentment inside her since before you met. She seems to lash out from a place of powerlessness. That said it's going to take an awful lot to break down that wall. And it's not something that will come from you since she's trying to bury you under that wall.


----------



## Chuck71

gridcom said:


> I was going to also say that I look kinda like a younger version of Ralph Kramden if he listened to Frank Zappa and punk rock all his life, but I just learned that Jackie Gleason was 40 when they filmed the Honeymooners, so that makes him younger than I am when he filmed it. Which scares the crap out of me.
> 
> EDIT: And I also have more clothing options than him, but barely


Just don't smoke 6 (yes not a typo) packs of smokes a day! Guess what he died of.....


----------



## gridcom

Anon Pink said:


> The bolded part doesn't bode well but doesn't mean it's hopeless either.
> 
> The communication method they teach is not in itself challenging.
> 
> Have you considered that your verbal style stymies her ability to articulate? Doesn't matter anyway because their method won't be affected by stubbornness or verbal intimidation.


"Verbal style" is a strange term. I will say, and have said before, that I can speak softly from beginning to end and still be firm. I am a essentially a professional negotiator in my work life going on 20 years now. It's what I do. I use it out of work too. I'm sure it's part of the problem here. That said, I wont get loud but my wife will almost always accelerate the angst. That's not to say I am not frustrating. I'm sure dealing with me on important issues can be frustrating if I am fixated on my point of view. My IC is dialed in on that and it's a work in progress. 

It's funny because my wife and I are so compatible and have similar world views and interests and all that but when it comes to communicating, we are not compatible at all. 

Again, you're only getting my side of this. I wish my wife could verbalize to you her feelings on this. I will answer any question about anything. If I can't answer it or if the answer doesn't sound right to me, I will instantly say "I'm wrong about this" "You're right"
I feel like I come from a place of "honestly at all costs". I feel like it's a no lose situation. When I lose my cool and get into this frustrated zone and start name calling (again, been a LONG time) or more recently just jousting through an issue until a resolution (whereas my wife would rather tap out without resolution), that's my trouble and weak spot. I get out of my head and scorch the earth.

But, I never or more accurately very rarely up the angst. I am almost always the calm one. When my wife loses her cool, I do eventually follow suit, out of frustration

And again, this is my wife's MAIN issue with me as a husband and a partner. I can be "mean"


----------



## Chuck71

farsidejunky said:


> QFT.
> 
> Grid, I would stop talking about your relationship at all unless she initiates the dialogue.
> 
> Then I would limit my interactions to short, simple, and direct statements.
> 
> "I am not okay with taking the blame for your choices."
> 
> "I am sorry you feel the need to make your choices my responsibility."
> 
> When she disagrees and tries to a start an argument:
> 
> "I see it differently." Then just walk away.
> 
> These statements are powerful. They demonstrate how resolute you are in your stance, and point a mirror at her when she tries to make you the source of her unhappiness.
> 
> This is the third or fourth time I have posted these on here. Are you using them?
> 
> These statements are powerful, Grid.


This is word for word what I did when STBXW returned home every night, straight from work.

When she spoke of work, friends..... I gave her my teenage IDGAF look and resumed playing Madden FB.

When she would cook, I would say I was not hungry. She fixed enough for me anyway. Sometimes I ate it,

sometimes I did not. If I did, I would email her a thank you (she was asleep when I ate).

I was polite. But I never used a cooked meal or a thank you from her as anything but that.

She blew things up, she needs to fix it. Had she shown me she wanted us to work through things....

maybe I would have a R thread instead of a LaD one. Chuck... had she come to you this way before you

dropped your "non-negotiable" on the coffee table, think you and her would've made it? No... seriously doubt it

in hindsite. 

Grid... stop bringing up "how you will feel when I" Just do it. 

Talk less .... do more .... when you stand up for yourself and stop taking crap...

it does NOT matter if you D or R.. she will respect you for putting a stop to this.

Grid.... every single time I pulled away.... my STBXW reached. Not saying yours will but

it is a very normal reaction.


----------



## LongWalk

Some people do not have the ability to say sorry. Neither of my parents ever apologized. Their childhoods were too traumatic. The emotional brutality hardened them. One of my brothers can say sorry. Seldom does he do it. He doesn't mean it. However, all of them would try to compensate for guilt through some other transaction. They offer to do something that they feel is nice or generous. 

Your wife may be having sex with you as form of compensation. In other words she prefers to have sex rather to reach from within to express genuine remorse. That is also why the sex is so devoid of emotion. She is not opening up.


----------



## ButtPunch

Grid 

Codependency is your biggest problem. Own it and work on it. If Anon is right and your wife has FOO issues like many Waywards do including my wife, she is going to need intensive therapy to deal with it or your marriage is doomed. She will cheat again. 

I was able to reconcile my marriage but a lot of unforseen uncontrollable events occurred that made it happen. It wasnt because I did the 180 or wrote a detailed love letter or started meeting her needs better. Grid your wife has a lot of work to do before she you should even consider working on the marriage. FOO issues do not go away but the feelings have to be recognized and coping mechanisms developed thru therapy. 

Grid, if your wife doesn't wake up and own it your marriage is doomed. I'm hoping for the best for you whatever the outcome.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cbnero

gridcom said:


> I'm curious why she made you leave the first night. This is one thing I am thinking about. The whole thing is centered around communication, yes? And that's a big issue here, for sure. Neither one of us communicates well. I CAN communicate well if I am not off balance. My wife, when it comes to any sort of real talk, will get louder and change the subject as soon as the dialogue isn't going the way she wants it to go. She would much rather walk away screaming nonsense than answer a tough question honestly. And I mean that literally. And that's not just a recent thing, but all through time.
> 
> I have wondered if part of this thing is making people hang in there to confront truth's about themselves and their relationships. If that's the center of Retrouvaille, then I fear my wife will also flip out and want to leave. She doesn't like being cornered to where she has to admit anything to anyone ever.
> 
> She's definitely a "I'd rather die on the hill than give you the satisfaction of making a good point"
> 
> And I don't say that in any way with a chip on my shoulder or out of frustration. Well, OK, yes I do say it partly out of frustration. But, it's also strangely true. She'll bail before she has to verbally go somewhere that makes her look at herself in a way that she's not comfortable
> 
> Pretty much the opposite of me in that regard.
> 
> To be fair, she is never mean about it (except for the time after D-Day when she just laid into me and told me she wanted to hurt me. that was one notable exception) But that doesnt mean she isnt banana's


Retro is designed to teach you HOW to communicate with each other. That is a big difference from WANTING to communicate honestly. If she is like my ex, she has zero desire to do Retro right now. Going thru the motions is a False R. If she isn't expressing desire to repair and keep the marriage - like pulling the D filing, stopping the musical baloney, etc... then how would you rate her actions and desire to reconcile?

If she isn't in it then what a waste of your time. 

And of you think this is a short temporary flaw, yesterday I dragged my ex to mediation (court order) 2 years after she left for not paying for school lunches, not paying half their health insurance, not doing their homework, not bathing them, etc. And instead of apologizing when the documentation came out (she lied to mediator first) she blew up in a 5+ minute rage cursing me in every word possible and impossible at the top of her lungs. In front of the mediator. Needless to say it went well for me. Sad but all true. I just laughed.
Mind you she was begging me to reconcile 2 months ago.

Something happens to people after an affair. To varying degrees. Just know the marriage you had is dead. Maybe you can start a new one with her but it will forever be different.

Did you read the No More Mr Nice Guy link I posted 2 days ago? Read it if you have not.


----------



## gridcom

cbnero said:


> Retro is designed to teach you HOW to communicate with each other. That is a big difference from WANTING to communicate honestly. If she is like my ex, she has zero desire to do Retro right now. Going thru the motions is a False R. If she isn't expressing desire to repair and keep the marriage - like pulling the D filing, stopping the musical baloney, etc... then how would you rate her actions and desire to reconcile?
> 
> If she isn't in it then what a waste of your time.
> 
> And of you think this is a short temporary flaw, yesterday I dragged my ex to mediation (court order) 2 years after she left for not paying for school lunches, not paying half their health insurance, not doing their homework, not bathing them, etc. And instead of apologizing when the documentation came out (she lied to mediator first) she blew up in a 5+ minute rage cursing me in every word possible and impossible at the top of her lungs. In front of the mediator. Needless to say it went well for me. Sad but all true. I just laughed.
> Mind you she was begging me to reconcile 2 months ago.
> 
> Something happens to people after an affair. To varying degrees. Just know the marriage you had is dead. Maybe you can start a new one with her but it will forever be different.
> 
> Did you read the No More Mr Nice Guy link I posted 2 days ago? Read it if you have not.


Thanks for the link. I have it saved, but I am still reading the Married Mens Sex Primer. I am 70% of the way done


----------



## cbnero

Nothing wrong with standing still and being aware. Just hit the 180 like it's your job and disconnect from her. Watch her actions, ignore what she says, remain aloof and do not engage. You're holding all the cards that matter, you just don't know it yet.


----------



## Anon Pink

Grid, you are far too smart for MMSLP! Don't waste your time.

The way you describe your wife and her inability to cope with discussion makes me think she is flooding and escalates to end the flooding. Some people cannot think straight when they feel stressed, others come alive with stress. Flooding is when those people who can't think straight are being challenged to articulate and they can't sort through the emotions, which causes more stress, which causes more emotions, which causes even less ability to articulate. My guess is that she sees you as the guy with all the power, the skill, the intelligence and most of all (perhaps worst of all in her mind) the ability to persuade. Discussion begins, stress hits, articulation skills are affected, more stress hits, less skill and she floods. The emotional outburst is to end the whirlwind of thoughts and emotions while keeping her measure of control over the topic or conversation.

She is powerless like a two year old who wants something but they can't find the words. 

So, how to deal with someone like this... Seek first to understand and second to be understood. Respond to the dominant emotion she is showing and not the words she is using. Anger masks fear or hurt. Frustration masks confusion. She's frustrated because she feels herself becoming confused and she gets angry because she's afraid you're going to make her feel like an idiot.

She needs therapy. She really really does. I'm convinced that she is on a terrible self destruct course that began before she married you. This is the mother of your children, whether she remains your wife or not. Her health and ability to not self destruct are important, whether she remains your wife or not.

Let the bashing begin because I'm even more convinced following JLD's advice is the right thing to do, not just for your marriage because it might not work anyway. But for the health of the woman who is going to be parenting your kids without your daily assistance.

If she really hated you, she wouldn't be having sex with you. Unless it's angry sex. Is it angry sex?


----------



## gridcom

Anon Pink said:


> If she really hated you, she wouldn't be having sex with you. Unless it's angry sex. Is it angry sex?


No, not angry sex. 

I don't know about the whole "was on a course of self destruct before being married". Unless we are talking about mental illness, which I wonder about. Her parents split when she was 7 years old, because her mother was bi-polar and wasn't medicating correctly and was essentially losing her mind. Her dad bailed, met another woman who was more his speed, and they're still together. Her mom is a very Christian woman who has been able to get a hold of her issues.

My wife grew up pretty poor. Well, I wouldn't say poor but lower LOWER middle class, I guess. But, she was loved by her mother and her family. When I met her, she just turned 18 and was a fireball of awesomeness. I'd never met anyone like her in my life. 

I can get into details about her upbringing, but honestly there was nothing out of the ordinary about it. No HUGE impactful events that changed the course of her upbringing. Mental illness was something she had first hand experience with. She dealt with some alcoholics in her extended family. Her father was there every weekend for her and her sister. Again, I'm not really seeing a link between what's happening now and what happened before I met her. 

That said, she could use her own IC for sure. You make good points, I suppose, when you break down how she unravels during disagreements. Rarely, if ever, did our disagreements remain simple disagreements. They always escalated into blow outs. Over the years, as we grew older and wiser, they would be farther apart, but no less blown out. 

She can be terribly stubborn and linear in how she thinks and I can be a mean pr!ck. That's really it. Even though she denies it, I think she has the attitude that I "MADE" her cheat. And I do think that she is emphasizing my faults these days to justify what she did so she can sleep more peacefully at night. There is truth to what she says, but c'mon I did a lot of good things for her and this family. I read about couples who just grow apart, and we never grew apart. We were friends LONG before we ever hooked up. In fact, I was just this fat slobby knucklehead drummer with no skills when we first started hanging out. She was a mega HOT college girl. In the lingo of the MMSLP, she was a 9 and I was a 4. Literally.

Nobody would have guessed I'd end up as succesful as I am, professionally. Maybe my wife, if anyone, saw it. But, for the most part, I was nothing but a street smart music snob with an airtight sense of humor and not much else. It was beauty and the beast when we hooked up romantically (After years of being close friends)

Luckily, I got my sh*t together professionally and physically, but I think as time went on I got arrogant too and unappreciative of what she added to my life and how much I relied on her for pushing myself to greater heights.


----------



## gridcom

Also, the area we live in was named today one of the Top 10 most expensive places to raise a family in America. If we lived in St. Joseph, MO we wouldn't be 70k in debt.


----------



## anchorwatch

Meh, debt... The Ameican way of life. Tell me about it. I live on the north shore of Nassau. Look at it this way, what career would you have in MO? That 70k put you in a hole now, but your earnings will continue.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Grid you're not sticking by her cause she's hot are you? Cause you've put that out there a few times and the rest of her traits aren't too appealing.


----------



## gridcom

TheTruthHurts said:


> Grid you're not sticking by her cause she's hot are you? Cause you've put that out there a few times and the rest of her traits aren't too appealing.


No, c'mon. Almost 20 years in, you could take Christina Hendricks for granted. My wife is an attractive lady, though. She has other appealing traits, but this isnt a cooking message board or a parenting message board (although her grade there took a serious hit with this episode)

She's also peculiar and weird in a way that makes sense to a weirdo like me.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

K just checking. But if it was cause of her hotness... And she was really, really hot, then maybe I could still see it


----------



## MountainRunner

Anon Pink said:


> Grid, you are far too smart for MMSLP! Don't waste your time.


I second this motion. I missed where this was recommended, but under no circumstances would I EVER recommend a piece of trash such as that.


----------



## farsidejunky

It ain't looking good, Grid. 3-1...


----------



## ConanHub

Anon Pink said:


> Grid, you are far too smart for MMSLP! Don't waste your time.
> 
> The way you describe your wife and her inability to cope with discussion makes me think she is flooding and escalates to end the flooding. Some people cannot think straight when they feel stressed, others come alive with stress. Flooding is when those people who can't think straight are being challenged to articulate and they can't sort through the emotions, which causes more stress, which causes more emotions, which causes even less ability to articulate. My guess is that she sees you as the guy with all the power, the skill, the intelligence and most of all (perhaps worst of all in her mind) the ability to persuade. Discussion begins, stress hits, articulation skills are affected, more stress hits, less skill and she floods. The emotional outburst is to end the whirlwind of thoughts and emotions while keeping her measure of control over the topic or conversation.
> 
> She is powerless like a two year old who wants something but they can't find the words.
> 
> So, how to deal with someone like this... Seek first to understand and second to be understood. Respond to the dominant emotion she is showing and not the words she is using. Anger masks fear or hurt. Frustration masks confusion. She's frustrated because she feels herself becoming confused and she gets angry because she's afraid you're going to make her feel like an idiot.
> 
> She needs therapy. She really really does. I'm convinced that she is on a terrible self destruct course that began before she married you. This is the mother of your children, whether she remains your wife or not. Her health and ability to not self destruct are important, whether she remains your wife or not.
> 
> Let the bashing begin because I'm even more convinced following JLD's advice is the right thing to do, not just for your marriage because it might not work anyway. But for the health of the woman who is going to be parenting your kids without your daily assistance.
> 
> If she really hated you, she wouldn't be having sex with you. Unless it's angry sex. Is it angry sex?


While I think you are probably on to something, that in no way means Grid should take any of her shyt.

Understanding why a maniac is trying to stab you doesn't mean you let them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Evinrude58

You are putting her on a pedestal grid. Gotta let it go. You say you're just in it for the kids, and I can tell you're just as hung up on this woman as I was. You are in for a world of hurt until you accept she is the past. Then you'll still hurt for a while, but it will get better. I was 6 years older than my wife when her aunt introduced her to me. She was 18--- just like yours. I sense a MLC. Greener grass she wanted.
She knows down deep that the OM is not a keeper. I agree with others that she is screwing up. But she's a freaking avalanche, she won't stop falling and you can't get out of the way of it. 
What are you being asked to do, exactly, by anon pink? Be her shrink? Geez, she's not mentally disabled, she's just a cheater. Way too much psychobabble going on here. If it were all as easy as going to "therapy", everyone would do the right thing and we'd live in a utopia.


----------



## ButtPunch

ConanHub said:


> While I think you are probably on to something, that in no way means Grid should take any of her shyt.
> 
> Understanding why a maniac is trying to stab you doesn't mean you let them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Exactly..

This just means it got even to harder to stay married to her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Vulcan2013

Grid, there's some good in MMSLP. Cherry pick out the good stuff. You mentioned you're overweight- try a low carb diet like Atkins. Hit the weights and muscle up. Avoid talking about your emotions or hers. (Big exception - Retro. Play that straight.). Make her initiate 2/3rds of the conversations. Go out at night sometimes, be a little mysterious. And mix in some good beta; some of jld's approach can help there. Cut out bad beta, especially passive aggression and being whiney. 

As to why she could be so cruel, I'll try to explain it. When you are doing something wrong to someone else, and you keep doing it, there are two paths. One, you stop,and set things right, as you know you should. Two, you try to keep the wrong behavior going and protect it. When you choose the second option, your mind can't handle being so far in the wrong. Then, your mind invents reasons the other person deserves to be treated badly. You rewrite history, and become a victim. It's common in affairs, embezzlement, and about any other sin involving a serious breach of trust. 

When I was in my EA, I was a monster. She can change. I'm really hoping Retro will help break through her denials and justifications.


----------



## Anon Pink

@ConanHub,

You're doing it again...

Understanding is not the same as excusing. Validating feelings is not the same as agreeing.


----------



## gridcom

Vulcan2013 said:


> you try to keep the wrong behavior going and protect it. When you choose the second option, your mind can't handle being so far in the wrong. Then, your mind invents reasons the other person deserves to be treated badly. You rewrite history, and become a victim. It's common in affairs, embezzlement, and about any other sin involving a serious breach of trust.



Yeah, when I was about 20 years old, I bought a drum set from the music store and they let me borrow a snare drum that didnt come with the kit for some reason with the idea that I'd return it within a short time frame. Somehow, I justified never returning it (I don't remember how or why) even though I walked around for months with this tremendous guilt that I would somehow mangle in my head and turn around to some warped justification. 

I ended up returning it and felt like an a$$hole when I did (and deservedly so)

This is the only thing I can relate to comparatively


----------



## Anon Pink

@Evinrude58,

I'm asking him to communicate in ways that make communication with his wife more communicative, productive and harmonious. To do that, he has to understand what she hears and feels..which is usually different than what he has intended to communicate.

This isn't rocket science.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Anon Pink said:


> @Evinrude58,
> 
> I'm asking him to communicate in ways that make communication with his wife more communicative, productive and harmonious. To do that, he has to understand what she hears and feels..which is usually different than what he has intended to communicate.
> 
> This isn't rocket science.


Interesting thought. Naw. Not worth it. Not his job. Not his disfunction. Plus why would he want to work so hard just to get her to justify staying at the job, listening to love songs pining for him, repeating her invented history that justifies her betrayal and disloyalty, and listening to her recount how good it felt to purposely hurt him. Oh and all the while yelling at him, Hmmm naw not worth it


----------



## Anon Pink

TheTruthHurts said:


> Interesting thought. Naw. Not worth it. Not his job. Not his disfunction. Plus why would he want to work so hard just to get her to justify staying at the job, listening to love songs pining for him, repeating her invented history that justifies her betrayal and disloyalty, and listening to her recount how good it felt to purposely hurt him. Oh and all the while yelling at him, Hmmm naw not worth it


Yes you're right, why didn't I think of that.

Much better to be over bearing and invalidating. Totally alienate her and make the divorce as acrimonious as possible. That'll teach her!


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Anon Pink said:


> TheTruthHurts said:
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting thought. Naw. Not worth it. Not his job. Not his disfunction. Plus why would he want to work so hard just to get her to justify staying at the job, listening to love songs pining for him, repeating her invented history that justifies her betrayal and disloyalty, and listening to her recount how good it felt to purposely hurt him. Oh and all the while yelling at him, Hmmm naw not worth it
> 
> 
> 
> Yes you're right, why didn't I think of that.
> 
> Much better to be over bearing and invalidating. Totally alienate her and make the divorce as acrimonious as possible. That'll teach her!
Click to expand...

Wow that's EXACTLY what I was thinking.

Not going to great lengths to get his wife to talk = be over beating and invalidating and alienate her!

Wow you must be a math wizard!


----------



## Pluto2

Way too much pseudo-psycho babble here.

Validating her feelings? So when Mrs. Grid is angry and blames him for the A, as he has stated she has done, Grid could validate those feelings with an "of course you feel that way." ?!

That's a bunch of ......

If there is an active argument going on with your wife, I don't see how that would be productive to any healing, either for you or her or your relationship. Until you've actually made up your mind whether to R or to D, diffuse the argument with an "I'm sorry you feel that way." and stop further engagement. Is not overbearing, demeaning or argumentative. You're also not setting yourself up to be an emotional martyr for all the ills of her world, which is a bit co-dependent.


----------



## Anon Pink

TheTruthHurts said:


> Wow that's EXACTLY what I was thinking.
> 
> Not going to great lengths to get his wife to talk = be over beating and invalidating and alienate her!
> 
> Wow you must be a math wizard!


1. I absolutely suck at math. I transpose numbers. I get the concepts but never get the answer right.

2. No great lengths. I already explained it for him.

3. I'm not going to respond to these kinds of posts anymore. I'm here to express ideas to grid. If he wants to debate them, I'm all in. I mean no offense but this gets tedious.


----------



## turnera

Anon Pink said:


> If she really hated you, she wouldn't be having sex with you. Unless it's angry sex. Is it angry sex?


Oh please. I haven't been in love with my husband for at LEAST 20 years and I still have sex with him. I just get it over with to keep him from pawing at me for another 5 or 6 days.

Ok, it's not quite that bad, but you have to understand that women have been faking sex for thousands of years to survive.

Women have sex for MANY REASONS.


----------



## turnera

gridcom said:


> She's definitely a "I'd rather die on the hill than give you the satisfaction of making a good point"


If that's true, then she is ONLY going to wake up in one of a few situations, including in-your-face accept your faults stuff like Retro...or in-your-face DIVORCE PAPERS.


----------



## Anon Pink

turnera said:


> Oh please. I haven't been in love with my husband for at LEAST 20 years and I still have sex with him. I just get it over with to keep him from pawing at me for another 5 or 6 days.
> 
> Women have sex for MANY REASONS.


T, that is incredibly sad. All of it. The fact that you've lived with a man for 20 years that you clearly don't respect and don't like AND the fact that you have sex and get nothing out of it except a few days of not being pawed at for sex. 

I've said this before, fix your own back yard before you tell everyone else how to fix theirs.


----------



## turnera

Oh, aren't you the wise one, Anon?

Sometimes, people LEARN from doing the wrong thing and strive to keep others from doing the same thing.

Your signature is based on sex. What more should be said?


----------



## LongWalk

Anon Pink said:


> Grid, you are far too smart for MMSLP! Don't waste your time.
> 
> The way you describe your wife and her inability to cope with discussion makes me think she is flooding and escalates to end the flooding. Some people cannot think straight when they feel stressed, others come alive with stress. Flooding is when those people who can't think straight are being challenged to articulate and they can't sort through the emotions, which causes more stress, which causes more emotions, which causes even less ability to articulate. My guess is that she sees you as the guy with all the power, the skill, the intelligence and most of all (perhaps worst of all in her mind) the ability to persuade. Discussion begins, stress hits, articulation skills are affected, more stress hits, less skill and she floods. The emotional outburst is to end the whirlwind of thoughts and emotions while keeping her measure of control over the topic or conversation.
> 
> She is powerless like a two year old who wants something but they can't find the words.
> 
> So, how to deal with someone like this... Seek first to understand and second to be understood. Respond to the dominant emotion she is showing and not the words she is using. Anger masks fear or hurt. Frustration masks confusion. She's frustrated because she feels herself becoming confused and she gets angry because she's afraid you're going to make her feel like an idiot.
> 
> She needs therapy. She really really does. I'm convinced that she is on a terrible self destruct course that began before she married you. This is the mother of your children, whether she remains your wife or not. Her health and ability to not self destruct are important, whether she remains your wife or not.
> 
> Let the bashing begin because I'm even more convinced following JLD's advice is the right thing to do, not just for your marriage because it might not work anyway. But for the health of the woman who is going to be parenting your kids without your daily assistance.
> 
> If she really hated you, she wouldn't be having sex with you. Unless it's angry sex. Is it angry sex?


I never heard the term flooding before. However, this pattern I can clearly identify in people I know, including both my parents. I have two daughters, the eldest cannot deal with being pinned down in a discussion. After a certain point, she blocks out all logic and becomes an emotional, reactive mess. She is in law school. How is she going to cope? She'll have to develop professional skills.

My younger daughter never stops thinking. 

All people have a breaking point. Waterboarding softens up people who are psychologically strong.

So, I agree that you need to change the pattern of your communication so that your wife can participate in your discussions, which are not just about understanding feelings but life decisions.

OM made your wife happy because he flowed around her insecurities like warm spa mud. Intuitively she knows he is not a whole person for a more successful relationship. Nonetheless, the good feeling he got from him was addicting.

MMSLP is about manipulation based on human instincts. it is not a moral guideline for a successful relationship, but you can glean certain insights. 

Mach, a guy who was not liked by all here on TAM, would have told you to dump your wife and get a better one. But if you insisted on reconciliation, then he would advise you to work out on weights, reduce body fat and build a V shaped torso. Doing this will not address your wife's issues, but it can be good to exploit primal instincts.

You answered questions about the drums (at last). Well, go down and play them hard. Teach your daughter to play. Or start her on the guitar. 

Your wife's engagement as a mother has slipped. No big surprize there. You cannot force her to pick up the ball. She has to do it. You cannot enable her by tolerating her disconnection from your daughters. That is why you have accepted divorce as a possibility.

Possibly she sees divorce as a motivator. Maybe post D she intends to remake herself. But she is thinking like this, it is vague and disorganized.


----------



## azteca1986

Anon Pink said:


> Yes you're right, why didn't I think of that.
> 
> Much better to be over bearing and invalidating. Totally alienate her and make the divorce as acrimonious as possible. That'll teach her!


And with a total lack of irony you're lecturing us on how to communicate?


Anon Pink said:


> Let the bashing begin because *I'm even more convinced following JLD's advice is the right thing to do*, not just for your marriage because it might not work anyway.


Why? Point to *one positive benefit* there has been in Grid's situation? The 180 was post #3 of this thread, yet here you are 182 pages later asking the OP to "make himself vulnerable" and "validate" her sh!tty behaviour.

Grid, for the love of all that's holy, do not prostrate yourself at the feet of your cheating wife. She filed for divorce. She sees her AP regularly at work, so _at best_, the affair is dormant. She's still communicating to her AP through songs lyrics (like a lovesick teenager).


gridcom said:


> I tell her often that I suspect that she will only really feel the first pangs of consequence when the moving truck with my stuff in it is moving down the street and my kids walk in and realize this is for real.


As has already been said - please stop this. You can't fix this. You can't get her to see the error of her ways - Not whilst a) there's three people in your marriage b) she refuses to alter the dynamic.

You can't control her or get her to think your way. So, step back. Post #3 of this thread. Withdraw yourself from this mess and for this first time give her a consequence.


----------



## bfree

Anon Pink said:


> @Evinrude58,
> 
> I'm asking him to communicate in ways that make communication with his wife more communicative, productive and harmonious. To do that, he has to understand what she hears and feels..which is usually different than what he has intended to communicate.
> 
> This isn't rocket science.


I agree but I'd advise he start doing this after total no contact has been established (i.e quit the job, no more immature spotify drivel etc.) Otherwise I think he's just alienating her and making it appear he's being placating and disingenuous.


----------



## ButtPunch

All this communication garbage only works when their is someone listening. Mrs.G stopped listening a long time ago. 

Grid is also way too smart to not understand that the MMSLP is the opposite of codependent behavior. He is also way too smart to keep following advice that clearly isn't working.

Only Mrs.G can fix Mrs.G. 

Hang in there until Retro.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Some folks here are making a lot of assumptions about Mrs. Grid's feelings, emotions, FOO issues, communication methods, etc.

Please, please, PLEASE tell me where I can get one of these magic eight-balls you all seem to have!

Anon says Mrs. Grid needs therapy. Well, duh! Don't all cheaters devoid of integrity?

Grid is too smart for MMSLP? LOL! Nah, he's an a$$ like the rest of us.

Grid, I've said it before and I'll say it again: Don't even* try* to untangle Mrs. Grid's skein of fvckupedness.

It's not your job to fix her. One day, when her family is broken and her life is a shambles, she may hit rock bottom and start to own her POS tendencies. Then she *might* attain enough humility to get some IC.

Odds are she'll latch onto some other sucker and start the cycle again, though.

You focus on you.


----------



## Pluto2

Anon Pink said:


> T, that is incredibly sad. All of it. The fact that you've lived with a man for 20 years that you clearly don't respect and don't like AND the fact that you have sex and get nothing out of it except a few days of not being pawed at for sex.
> 
> I've said this before, fix your own back yard before you tell everyone else how to fix theirs.


That is a cheap shot and a personal attack on Turnera, simply because she disagrees.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

LongWalk said:


> Mach, a guy who was not liked by all here on TAM, would have told you to dump your wife and get a better one.


Same advice I would give, if Mrs. Grid continues to carry on her affair, show no remorse, and refuse to own her POS tendencies.

People just don't wake up one day and acquire character and integrity. There are plenty of potential life-partners out there who already have these desirable character traits. Why fvck around with damaged goods?


----------



## LongWalk

When people have children they try harder to save their marriages. 

Since they have both signed on for Retrouvaille, they ought to see it through.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Shall we start a betting pool on how Retro will turn out?

I'm not seeing the Retro "magic wand" that some of you see....

I know where I have my $$.

Communication issues are not the problem.

Character issues are the problem.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

I would appreciate it if someone can point me to the post where Grid says that Mrs. Grid wants to R.

I can't find it.


----------



## Sammy64

ThreeStrikes said:


> Shall we start a betting pool on how Retro will turn out?
> 
> I'm not seeing the Retro "magic wand" that some of you see....
> 
> I know where I have my $$.
> 
> Communication issues are not the problem.
> 
> Character issues are the problem.


I agree with this, i think she only is going to go to SAY SHE TRIED. And on the drive home, the hammer falls on Grid..


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Sammy64 said:


> I agree with this, i think she only is going to go to SAY SHE TRIED. And on the drive home, the hammer falls on Grid..


Yep, just like she "tried" IC.


----------



## ButtPunch

Anon Pink said:


> T, that is incredibly sad. All of it. The fact that you've lived with a man for 20 years that you clearly don't respect and don't like AND the fact that you have sex and get nothing out of it except a few days of not being pawed at for sex.
> 
> I've said this before, fix your own back yard before you tell everyone else how to fix theirs.


WTF was that?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

What is going to happen?

We don't have a crystal ball. There is a lot we don't know. Maybe she is reading TAM every day and summoning her inner strength to change herself. Maybe she just going through the motions, and praying for Retrouvaille miracle.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

LongWalk said:


> What is going to happen?
> 
> We don't have a crystal ball. There is a lot we don't know. Maybe she is reading TAM every day and summoning her inner strength to change herself. Maybe she just going through the motions, and praying for Retrouvaille miracle.


That's a viewpoint from the weeds.

Different view up here at 50K.

I'm still looking for that post where Mrs. Grid says she wants to R....


----------



## turnera

ThreeStrikes said:


> Shall we start a betting pool on how Retro will turn out?
> 
> I'm not seeing the Retro "magic wand" that some of you see....
> 
> I know where I have my $$.
> 
> Communication issues are not the problem.
> 
> Character issues are the problem.


You know, I've gone the 'burn 'em all' route quite a few times, and many times I've eaten crow when I saw that the cheater in question was - surprise! - a human, too, with his/her own feelings and justifications and experiences, and not the sadistic hateful person we tried to make them out to be. I try hard nowadays to not paint someone black if they aren't here posting and sharing _their _side. And, as I've said before, I know a couple former cheaters who are incredibly trustworthy and good people. How can I say that? Because they took their bad actions and learned from them and determined to go live a life that made up for those actions.

And psychologically, I know how easy it is to give in to an addiction. And most affairs aren't started on purpose, unless the person's just going out looking for something on the side. Most of the affairs we've dealt with here started out as a lonely person in an unhappy or unfulfilling marriage who meets a person who - gasp! - listens to them. It's human nature to take each other for granted after a few years. Almost all of us do it. Having someone listen to you, or smile at you, or even just talk to you, is a heady thing. IT FEELS GOOD. So you figure what's the harm, it's just talking. And then you start to look for that person, or put yourself in that person's path, or - entering the next step - looking for more than just talking. And then THAT feels good and you keep doing it. In almost every situation I've seen here, the person didn't intend to become a cheater, but the addiction started changing everything for them, to the point that getting that feel good was more important than anything else. It doesn't excuse deciding to take it to those further steps, but it can help us understand HOW it got to that point. Sure, some cheaters turn into real monsters afterwards (or maybe were like that before), but not all do. Many become self-hateful and confused and ashamed. Many, like grid's wife seems to, believe ignorantly (not understanding how PEAs work) that if they aren't feeling the butterflies and unicorns, they are no longer in love, and thus walk away from their marriage. Some feel safe enough to unleash all their anger onto their spouse instead of themselves. Some have enough humility and wisdom to beg forgiveness and work to make up for what they did. Some are just selfish Users who move on afterwards. Not all cheaters are alike.

I'll wait to see how she handles Retro.


----------



## gridcom

She doesnt want R. She wants D. She is open to R, because of the kids. She's more open to R if I keep my mouth shut, be kind, not say a word about the affair, not say a word about her OM, not say a word about leaving her job, not say a word under my breath, not say a word when she does or says something that rocks me at my core (like the song lyric crap). 

When I comply, then she is nice and friendly and acts like nothing ever happened.

She is open to going to Retrouvaille, but like some of you have mentioned, it may very well be so she can say to people that "she tried" to save face with those around her who are appalled at her behavior. 

She sleeps like a baby.,


----------



## Pluto2

This is horrible, Grid.

Knowing that you're going to mediation before R'ville, have you independently spoken to a financial adviser or attorney?


----------



## GusPolinski

gridcom said:


> *She doesnt want R. She wants D. She is open to R, because of the kids. She's more open to R if I keep my mouth shut, be kind, not say a word about the affair, not say a word about her OM, not say a word about leaving her job, not say a word under my breath, not say a word when she does or says something that rocks me at my core (like the song lyric crap). *
> 
> When I comply, then she is nice and friendly and acts like nothing ever happened.
> 
> She is open to going to Retrouvaille, but like some of you have mentioned, it may very well be so she can say to people that "she tried" to save face with those around her who are appalled at her behavior.
> 
> She sleeps like a baby.,


That's not reconciliation.

That's rugsweeping.

Hopefully you'll see that before too long, and then realize that divorce is truly what needs to happen here.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

turnera said:


> And, as I've said before, I know a couple former cheaters who are incredibly trustworthy and good people. How can I say that? *Because they took their bad actions and learned from them and determined to go live a life that made up for those actions.*


Exactly. They were remorseful. They started to show integrity and character, and owned their POS tendencies.

MountainRunner, who chimed in earlier, is one such fellow.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

gridcom said:


> She doesnt want R. She wants D. She is open to R, because of the kids. She's more open to R if I keep my mouth shut, be kind, not say a word about the affair, not say a word about her OM, not say a word about leaving her job, not say a word under my breath, not say a word when she does or says something that rocks me at my core (like the song lyric crap).
> 
> When I comply, then she is nice and friendly and acts like nothing ever happened.
> 
> She is open to going to Retrouvaille, but like some of you have mentioned, it may very well be so she can say to people that "she tried" to save face with those around her who are appalled at her behavior.
> 
> She sleeps like a baby.,


<whip crack>

Be a nice BS, Grid, and treat her like the entitled Princess she is.

She'll be happy, the kids will be happy, and you can suffer in your private hell. Codependency at its best.

Meh, what can I say. I did it after my ex's 1st affair.


----------



## azteca1986

gridcom said:


> She doesnt want R. She wants D. She is open to R, because of the kids. She's more open to R if I keep my mouth shut, be kind, not say a word about the affair, not say a word about her OM, not say a word about leaving her job, not say a word under my breath, not say a word when she does or says something that rocks me at my core (like the song lyric crap).
> 
> When I comply, then she is nice and friendly and acts like nothing ever happened.
> 
> She is open to going to Retrouvaille, but like some of you have mentioned, it may very well be so she can say to people that "she tried" to save face with those around her who are appalled at her behavior.
> 
> She sleeps like a baby.,


You read river rat's thread. You know the way she wants to (not) deal with her betrayal will not end well.

But enough about her. What about you?


----------



## ConanHub

gridcom said:


> She doesnt want R. She wants D. She is open to R, because of the kids. She's more open to R if I keep my mouth shut, be kind, not say a word about the affair, not say a word about her OM, not say a word about leaving her job, not say a word under my breath, not say a word when she does or says something that rocks me at my core (like the song lyric crap).
> 
> When I comply, then she is nice and friendly and acts like nothing ever happened.
> 
> She is open to going to Retrouvaille, but like some of you have mentioned, it may very well be so she can say to people that "she tried" to save face with those around her who are appalled at her behavior.
> 
> She sleeps like a baby.,


Good lord! Stop playing with this ridiculous excuse for a woman!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

Anon Pink said:


> @ConanHub,
> 
> You're doing it again...
> 
> Understanding is not the same as excusing. Validating feelings is not the same as agreeing.


Just checking then. jld advocates absorbing the damage this clearly unsafe woman wants to dish. I think that is a bad idea. Kudos for holding your position on this thread. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ButtPunch

ThreeStrikes said:


> It's not your job to fix her. One day, when her family is broken and her life is a shambles, she may hit rock bottom and start to own her POS tendencies. Then she *might* attain enough humility to get some IC.
> 
> Odds are she'll latch onto some other sucker and start the cycle again, though.
> 
> You focus on you.


QFT and this is exactly why I am still married. My wife hit pretty close to rock bottom and was forced to attend counseling and therapy. She slowly came out of it and I and my children will forever be thankful. Then we began MC and worked on our communication. Mrs G may get there or she may latch on to another posom. Only time will tell but it won't be because of something Grid does or doesn't do.

Grid needs to let go and give Mrs.G the dignity to fail.


----------



## LongWalk

gridcom said:


> She doesnt want R. She wants D. She is open to R, because of the kids. She's more open to R if I keep my mouth shut, be kind, not say a word about the affair, not say a word about her OM, not say a word about leaving her job, not say a word under my breath, not say a word when she does or says something that rocks me at my core (like the song lyric crap).
> 
> When I comply, then she is nice and friendly and acts like nothing ever happened.
> 
> She is open to going to Retrouvaille, but like some of you have mentioned, it may very well be so she can say to people that "she tried" to save face with those around her who are appalled at her behavior.
> 
> She sleeps like a baby.,


This means she will consider forgiving you if you keep your mouth shut. To her the power balance in your relationship is better than in the past. She could not articulate her dissatisfaction and resentment. When she had the affair and filed for divorce her status shot up to _*she who decides*_. 

She is not going to relinquish this power without a fight.

However, as you have pointed out previously, she refuses to consider post divorce reality.

Stay calm.


----------



## turnera

grid, question: Have you looked up your divorce rights yet? IMO, you need to know them before you go to Retro, and ESPECIALLY before you go to mediation. Not telling you that you have to divorce her, just that if you come at this with knowledge, it gives you a position of power - i.e., knowing that you'll be all right. That allows you to negotiate out of wants and needs instead of out of fear.


----------



## cbnero

Grid here is more of my personal background, I'm not saying yours is the same. But maybe you can draw some conclusions of your own now that you are more aware.

After D Day, I was desperate to keep the family intact. Ex gaslight me to extreme measures and wanted to move out. No problem says me, I'll move in the basement. Please stay! I lived down there close to 6 months like a second class citizen. She slept like a baby, never once came down by me. Then she has me staying in my secretary's basement. I do this for a few weeks. Not sleeping, mentally going crazy. Finally I say if you need to move out, then go. I can't live like this. She flips a lid! Threatens and screams. Then comes back and says she has decided to stay and work on the marriage. But to "bottle up my emotions because she just can't care about me right now." 

No problem, she will come around. I'll do it for the kids. She starts telling me she loves me. But actions don't match up. She has sex with me - completely emotionless sex.

Suddenly I find out the truth about OM identity, hidden bank accounts, etc... I am so hurt and upset. I call her on the phone and I'm angry. She says she will come home to talk about it and be honest. She never came home. I never spent another night with my wife. 

She was leading me on and hoping I would just keep my mouth shut long enough for her to finish her exit plan. All lies. 

If you want to see her real intentions you must respect yourself to put boundaries in place. She matters. YOU matter. Not just one - both! That is a marriage. What you have now is not.


----------



## ButtPunch

LongWalk said:


> This means she will consider forgiving you if you keep your mouth shut. To her the power balance in your relationship is better than in the past. She could not articulate her dissatisfaction and resentment. When she had the affair and filed for divorce her her status shot up to _*she who decides*_.
> 
> She is not going to relinquish this power without a fight.
> 
> However, as you have pointed out previously, she refuses to consider post divorce reality.


I disagree. Seeing Grid's codependent nature, I just assumed she was the more selfish and powerful one. Codependents are magnets to narcissists and selfish people. Codependents are controlling by nature but it is a faux control.


----------



## LongWalk

I see your point, BP. Let me re-phrase it then. She had more power to begin with and through the affair took even more. And she likes it like this.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

ButtPunch said:


> LongWalk said:
> 
> 
> 
> This means she will consider forgiving you if you keep your mouth shut. To her the power balance in your relationship is better than in the past. She could not articulate her dissatisfaction and resentment. When she had the affair and filed for divorce her her status shot up to _*she who decides*_.
> 
> She is not going to relinquish this power without a fight.
> 
> However, as you have pointed out previously, she refuses to consider post divorce reality.
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree. Seeing Grid's codependent nature, I just assumed she was the more selfish and powerful one. Codependents are magnets to narcissists and selfish people. Codependents are controlling by nature but it is a faux control.
Click to expand...

Sadly this is spot on


----------



## TheTruthHurts

turnera said:


> Anon Pink said:
> 
> 
> 
> If she really hated you, she wouldn't be having sex with you. Unless it's angry sex. Is it angry sex?
> 
> 
> 
> Oh please. I haven't been in love with my husband for at LEAST 20 years and I still have sex with him. I just get it over with to keep him from pawing at me for another 5 or 6 days.
> 
> Ok, it's not quite that bad, but you have to understand that women have been faking sex for thousands of years to survive.
> 
> Women have sex for MANY REASONS.
Click to expand...

Turnera that's horrible and sad 

Any chance you can change your situation? I don't know your story but no one should feel marriage is a life sentence and just suck it up.

And Anon Pink's horrible and inappropriate dig at you just reveals her own dark heart and lack of empathy.

Grid - you'd do well to consider Anon's mean streak when reading her advice.


----------



## Pluto2

Please don't make this thread about some geo-political power struggle for the control of ....whatever.

Let's just focus on Grid


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Pluto2 said:


> Please don't make this thread about some geo-political power struggle for the control of ....whatever.
> 
> Let's just focus on Grid


Just as grid should not accept personal attacks from Mrs. Grid, personal attacks on other TAM members should not go unchecked.

This is spot on point as it relatedls to grid. He accepts her s*it and all will be ok - except not at all.

The best way to address snarky, unfounded, personal digs is to call BS.

I have seen some of these posters blow up other threads with their personal animosity. It's instructive for grid I believe.

For me - I cut toxic people out of my life. There is no upside to being a martyr and having such a big ego as to think you can save someone else from their misery.

My dad taught me long ago - some people are happiest when they're miserable. While many turn grapes into wine or jam, they turn them into sour grapes. This is their preferred - and most comfortable state. 

Grid - Mrs grid has either cut you out if her life as a toxic person, or is just wallowing in her misery. I can't tell - not enough info. 

You are determined to take this to all 9 innings - many would have left the ballpark when they stopped serving beer. I don't know if that is just martyr behavior on your part, a little self loathing, unrealistic thoughts of turning back time, or what.

I strongly suspect it is really to "show her" when "she realizes how badly she fvcked up". Sorry to call you out but there you go. I don't know if that's passive-aggressive, "nice guy", vindictive... But it's definitely LOW SELF ESTEEM. could've just that simple. The 4 drummer loser never really deserved the 10 hot chick. I get it if that's the case. But this path is just dragging you down man.

I know you know the last part,but I'm not sure you've thought about the other stuff I've said. Something to reflect on.

My FIL, when he was going in and out at the hospital at age 87, revealed horrible things about his childhood relationship with his mom. They came in his dreams. It was heartbreaking. He left home young and didn't look back... but clearly these things stuck with him for 8 decades. So it's worth really looking at these self esteem issues and coming to terms with them.


----------



## ButtPunch

cbnero said:


> if you want to see her real intentions you must respect yourself to put boundaries in place. *she matters. You matter.* not just one - both! That is a marriage. What you have now is not.


----------



## cbnero

I'm bored and waiting in a doctor office so I'm going to ramble on for grid.

The year long period where I alone saw IC every week on my own dime, attempted to get her to Retro, lived in my basement, accepted all the blame she could dish out, and would just trigger non stop. I initiated all attempts at counseling, to which she would maybe reluctantly agree a few times (to say she tried).

I was not aware of TAM at this time. I would make a few TAM moves by accident and then see a change/reaction from her. Not having any guidance I would follow up with 3 or 4 non-TAM moves. Stupid moves. Any positive change would be erased.

Example: I said okay, move out if you need to. Not out of anger. Just me letting go and throwing in the towel. It threw her off. Then she came back in anger! From me agreeing to her wishes?? Yes because all she wants is space and I couldn't give it to her. I'm so controlling and abusive. I can't listen to her at all. 

I felt terrible. Of course, she was right! How could I dare try to have any respect for myself or think about my feelings and wishes? I am so selfish. In fact, at this time she verbatim said I was the most selfish person she ever knew. Cue me apologizing profusely and offering to move into my secretary's basement to giver her space. 

Grid, I would have loved to be in your position grid - having her in the home with the backing of TAM. Experienced people, and I'm not saying me, can guide you on making the first step and then more importantly following up with more right steps. Not the 1 step forward, 4 steps back I did by winging it on my own. I really believe my marriage might have had a chance if I had been armed with the TAM knowledge. Instead I let her lead the direction of the marriage and followed her blindly. Reacting vs acting. And the end result is where the good ones here on TAM could have predicted with 100% certainty. 

Now you are in the spotlight. It sucks. You have done some but avoided the scary stuff you don't want to confront. The moves that involve putting up real boundaries. Facing the reality of divorce head on and leading.

If this were a game of chess, TAM is the playbook. You could be 10 moves ahead. It involves risk. That's part of the game.


----------



## gridcom

cbnero said:


> I'm bored and waiting in a doctor office so I'm going to ramble on for grid.
> 
> The year long period where I alone saw IC every week on my own dime, attempted to get her to Retro, lived in my basement, accepted all the blame she could dish out, and would just trigger non stop. I initiated all attempts at counseling, to which she would maybe reluctantly agree a few times (to say she tried).
> 
> I was not aware of TAM at this time. I would make a few TAM moves by accident and then see a change/reaction from her. Not having any guidance I would follow up with 3 or 4 non-TAM moves. Stupid moves. Any positive change would be erased.
> 
> Example: I said okay, move out if you need to. Not out of anger. Just me letting go and throwing in the towel. It threw her off. Then she came back in anger! From me agreeing to her wishes?? Yes because all she wants is space and I couldn't give it to her. I'm so controlling and abusive. I can't listen to her at all.
> 
> I felt terrible. Of course, she was right! How could I dare try to have any respect for myself or think about my feelings and wishes? I am so selfish. In fact, at this time she verbatim said I was the most selfish person she ever knew. Cue me apologizing profusely and offering to move into my secretary's basement to giver her space.
> 
> Grid, I would have loved to be in your position grid - having her in the home with the backing of TAM. Experienced people, and I'm not saying me, can guide you on making the first step and then more importantly following up with more right steps. Not the 1 step forward, 4 steps back I did by winging it on my own. I really believe my marriage might have had a chance if I had been armed with the TAM knowledge. Instead I let her lead the direction of the marriage and followed her blindly. Reacting vs acting. And the end result is where the good ones here on TAM could have predicted with 100% certainty.
> 
> Now you are in the spotlight. It sucks. You have done some but avoided the scary stuff you don't want to confront. The moves that involve putting up real boundaries. Facing the reality of divorce head on and leading.
> 
> If this were a game of chess, TAM is the playbook. You could be 10 moves ahead. It involves risk. That's part of the game.


Thank you


----------



## happyman64

Grid

I read the last 10 pages of your thread today.

One thing stood out.



> honestly


Your wife's inability to answer questions honestly or have deep, meaningful conversations with you honestly.

I see a man that is madly in love with his wife. That wanted to provide so badly that he most likely steamrolled over her in ways not felt by himself but felt by his wife as hurtful actions.

You were just trying to move up and provide a better life for your family.


Well guess what, you are not better off now then you were when you first got married.

You two cannot communicate with each other in an effective manner if one of you cannot communicate honestly.

It is why she cheated.
It is why she filed for divorce.
It is why she agreed to Retro.
It is why she is still in love with the OM even when he is seen with other women.

I think you love your wife so much and love your family so much that you will go through right up until 2016 to save your marriage.

But now here comes the truth my friend.

If your wife wants to continue her life with you as if the affair never took place she is being dishonest with herself and you.

If your wife filed for divorce but wants to make the effort to do Retro to "save the family" she is being dishonest with you and herself.

Just be aware of this. I think you are but you are truly setting yourself up for a big failure in 2016.

I also think you are correct that your wife will never realize just how destructive her decisions have been until your moving truck is heading down the street to your new home.

But guess what, it won't matter because she will spin her decisions, her affair, her rug sweeping and her false reconciliation any way she can (dishonestly) to make her self look like the good gal.

I applaud your perseverance.

IMHO if I was married to a woman like your wife I would have blown up her Affair spectacularly for all family and friends to see her for who she truly is. 

And there is no guarantee that exposure of that level would make her look at herself honestly. Especially being that stubborn and when threatened being truly mean.

You got a glimpse of the real "mean" her that night. Never forget it.

No matter how hot she is.

HM


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Cbnero awesome post. Can't figure out the like thing so am posting this.

Grid - I read "codependent no more". Was a HUGE eye opener about others in my life. Easy read BTW and available everywhere.

Cbnero used the term "reacting". This is the key word you should take it - it's all over that book.

Hope that starts to explain codependency a bit


----------



## jld

Grid, you have exposed her affair to family and friends, correct? You did it in the first several weeks after she told you, iirc. So she is used to the ostracism and judgment by now.

If you feel her heart is not in reconciliation, and she has truly moved on, it might be a kindness to both of you to end things after Retrouvaille. The only other course I can see is for you to use Dr. Harley's methods to re-inspire her love. 

Do you remember a month or so ago, when she read that article telling her to be really nice to you, and how much you enjoyed the few days she did that? Why do you think she did not continue?


----------



## ButtPunch

happyman64 said:


> even when OM is seen with other women.
> 
> HM


Allegedly.....Don't know if she was honest about this one.


----------



## turnera

TheTruthHurts said:


> Turnera that's horrible and sad
> 
> Any chance you can change your situation? I don't know your story but no one should feel marriage is a life sentence and just suck it up.
> 
> And Anon Pink's horrible and inappropriate dig at you just reveals her own dark heart and lack of empathy.
> 
> Grid - you'd do well to consider Anon's mean streak when reading her advice.


It's getting a lot better, thanks. It took me a long time to figure it out, but we are FINALLY becoming more equal and I'm holding fast to my boundaries and consequences so that he is FINALLY changing in ways that I need. The sex thing is just an aversion I have from before him, and when I'm not happy with him, it's not appealing, even though he's amazing, always makes it wonderful for me. When I AM happy with him, it's great. So things are looking up, now that he's participating in the marriage more and addressing my needs. It just took me 35 years to get to this point, lol.

I should add that the REASON things are finally changing is that I finally made it clear that if things didn't improve I was going to start preparing to leave him.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Turnera glad to hear. Grid sorry for the thread jack. AP I don't know you - maybe you're not mean and the dig slipped out sideways.

Now back to "the days of Grid's life", starring Jackie Gleason, jr


----------



## gridcom

happyman64 said:


> Grid
> 
> I read the last 10 pages of your thread today.
> 
> One thing stood out.
> 
> 
> 
> Your wife's inability to answer questions honestly or have deep, meaningful conversations with you honestly.
> 
> I see a man that is madly in love with his wife. That wanted to provide so badly that he most likely steamrolled over her in ways not felt by himself but felt by his wife as hurtful actions.
> 
> You were just trying to move up and provide a better life for your family.
> 
> 
> Well guess what, you are not better off now then you were when you first got married.
> 
> You two cannot communicate with each other in an effective manner if one of you cannot communicate honestly.
> 
> It is why she cheated.
> It is why she filed for divorce.
> It is why she agreed to Retro.
> It is why she is still in love with the OM even when he is seen with other women.
> 
> I think you love your wife so much and love your family so much that you will go through right up until 2016 to save your marriage.
> 
> But now here comes the truth my friend.
> 
> If your wife wants to continue her life with you as if the affair never took place she is being dishonest with herself and you.
> 
> If your wife filed for divorce but wants to make the effort to do Retro to "save the family" she is being dishonest with you and herself.
> 
> Just be aware of this. I think you are but you are truly setting yourself up for a big failure in 2016.
> 
> I also think you are correct that your wife will never realize just how destructive her decisions have been until your moving truck is heading down the street to your new home.
> 
> But guess what, it won't matter because she will spin her decisions, her affair, her rug sweeping and her false reconciliation any way she can (dishonestly) to make her self look like the good gal.
> 
> I applaud your perseverance.
> 
> IMHO if I was married to a woman like your wife I would have blown up her Affair spectacularly for all family and friends to see her for who she truly is.
> 
> And there is no guarantee that exposure of that level would make her look at herself honestly. Especially being that stubborn and when threatened being truly mean.
> 
> You got a glimpse of the real "mean" her that night. Never forget it.
> 
> No matter how hot she is.
> 
> HM


Saw my IC today. We talked only about communication and communication skills. She said, no matter how "right" I was about any particular point, I come across like a "Pitbull" and nobody likes to be in a room with a Pitbull. That the way I communicate is going to take away from my point, and the sooner I get a handle on this the better my whole LIFE was going to be, never mind my relationship. 

This is nothing new. I must admit she has a point. I handle disagreements (with anybody; work, children;wife; guy at flea market selling me stereo equipment) like a chess match. 

I like to think I've gotten better at this over the last 16+ weeks. I guess my wife would be the only true judge of that, but this is clearly the biggest, most frustrating test of all.


----------



## LongWalk

Grid,

The fact that you believe your scored a woman with a higher sex ranking than you is not a secret to your wife. It gives her justification for blowing your marriage up. Your belief also explains why you thought she might go on a second OM, one with better earning power than her music loving colleague.

Keep things simple. Reread HappyMan and ButtPunch. They have it distilled. You can reserve the love you feel for wife – the jld devotion – internally. No need to hack at it or feed it. Just let it be.

Everyone travels their own road. Harder for some than others. Ginger Baker told the Guardian about his heroin addiction:



> I came off something like 29 times." It wasn't until 1981, when he moved to Italy, that Baker kicked the drug for good. "That's when I got clear of it all. I moved to a little village in the middle of nowhere, where nobody spoke English. I got into olive farming. It was very rewarding, very hard work but very good therapy."
> 
> Perhaps it would have been easier to go to rehab? "No, no, no, no! There's only one person who can help an addict and that's an addict himself.


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> Saw my IC today. We talked only about communication and communication skills. She said, no matter how "right" I was about any particular point, I come across like a "Pitbull" and nobody likes to be in a room with a Pitbull. That the way I communicate is going to take away from my point, and the sooner I get a handle on this the better my whole LIFE was going to be, never mind my relationship.
> 
> This is nothing new. I must admit she has a point. I handle disagreements (with anybody; work, children;wife; guy at flea market selling me stereo equipment) like a chess match.
> 
> I like to think I've gotten better at this over the last 16+ weeks. I guess my wife would be the only true judge of that, but this is clearly the biggest, most frustrating test of all.


Anybody else find it odd that Grid's IC is not coaching him thru the stages of grief but instead is coaching him to communicate better. 

My IC coached me thru the grief process when I went thru this.


----------



## gridcom

Also, in fairness, I dont think my wife wants the marriage to continue like the affair never happened. She does agree that she needs to deal with it and go through different stages in order to get to a healthy marriage. She just simply says she's not there yet, or not ready. I think we both agree that we don't want a loveless marriage, and she does agree that in order to get there she's going to need to wrap her head around this and confront it.


----------



## gridcom

ButtPunch said:


> Anybody else find it odd that Grid's IC is not coaching him thru the stages of grief but instead is coaching him to communicate better.
> 
> My IC coached me thru the grief process when I went thru this.


I don't think I am grieving. Well, ok, if I AM grieving I don't need help with that part of it. The last 6-8 weeks, maybe since I got served with papers, I've been training myself to accept divorce as the most likely #1 outcome, and every day it gets easier. it really does. That's not to say I am throwing in the towel. And I've explained why. 

But, I dont think I need help in that regard.


----------



## LongWalk

Ginger Baker was difficult to get along with.


----------



## turnera

gridcom said:


> I handle disagreements (with anybody; work, children;wife; guy at flea market selling me stereo equipment) like a chess match.
> 
> I like to think I've gotten better at this over the last 16+ weeks. I guess my wife would be the only true judge of that, but this is clearly the biggest, most frustrating test of all.


No offense, but I would stop loving a man who did this, who had this as part of who he is. And if he then said he was getting help to stop being this, I wouldn't believe him. Not for years. Just sayin'.


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> Also, in fairness, I dont think my wife wants the marriage to continue like the affair never happened. She does agree that she needs to deal with it and go through different stages in order to get to a healthy marriage. She just simply says she's not there yet, or not ready. I think we both agree that we don't want a loveless marriage, and she does agree that in order to get there she's going to need to wrap her head around this and confront it.


Well there is obviously a lot riding on Retrouvaille. I don't usually advocate LIMBO for any BS but I guess you owe it to your kids to give it a shot.


----------



## Pluto2

gridcom said:


> Also, in fairness, I dont think my wife wants the marriage to continue like the affair never happened. She does agree that she needs to deal with it and go through different stages in order to get to a healthy marriage. She just simply says she's not there yet, or not ready. I think we both agree that we don't want a loveless marriage, and she does agree that in order to get there she's going to need to wrap her head around this and confront it.


I'm confused. I thought you said she was refusing IC. Does she offer a constructive way for her to "wrap her head around this" that does not include IC? Is she expecting R'ville to do this for her? It doesn't explain her unwillingness to discuss the A. There is a either some missing information or a real conflict here.


----------



## gridcom

turnera said:


> No offense, but I would stop loving a man who did this, who had this as part of who he is. And if he then said he was getting help to stop being this, I wouldn't believe him. Not for years. Just sayin'.


No offense taken.

Here's some examples.

"Don't you think it'd be better if XXX was YYY?"

-Yes

"Ok, if you agree then why wouldn't you then PPP in order to YYY?"

- I don't know. 

"But, you just said YYY is better than XXX, so doesnt it make sense that you would PPP in order to YYY?"

- Please leave me alone

"This doesn't make sense to me. We are right here. I would think this makes total sense to you"

- Please, not now. I don't want to talk about this right now.


----------



## gridcom

Pluto2 said:


> I'm confused. I thought you said she was refusing IC. Does she offer a constructive way for her to "wrap her head around this" that does not include IC? Is she expecting R'ville to do this for her? It doesn't explain her unwillingness to discuss the A. There is a either some missing information or a real conflict here.


She's not going to IC. I am.
Her constructive way for her to wrap her head around this is for me to back off and leave her alone, not talk about the A or our marriage or the future for the forseeable future and give her a chance to breathe. 

I have NOT succesfully done this, although I wake up EVERY DAY thinking today I am going to do exactly that until SHE comes to ME

This is why I think jld and ANON's approach deserves merit. It's not because it doesn't work. It may, it may not. But, until I actually have the discipline to do it, who knows.

Today.....is that day.


----------



## farsidejunky

This is a form of control, Grid.

You "need" her to see it your way. I suffer(ed) from the same thing. 

She does not have to see it your way.

When you have discussed, and are still at an impasse, simply say:

"I see it differently."

Then walk away. If she wants to discuss it again, she will initiate the dialogue.


----------



## gridcom

farsidejunky said:


> This is a form of control, Grid.
> 
> You "need" her to see it your way. I suffer(ed) from the same thing.
> 
> She does not have to see it your way.
> 
> When you have discussed, and are still at an impasse, simply say:
> 
> "I see it differently."
> 
> Then walk away. If she wants to discuss it again, she will initiate the dialogue.


I am going to do this, just like I said yesterday.


----------



## cbnero

turnera said:


> gridcom said:
> 
> 
> 
> I handle disagreements (with anybody; work, children;wife; guy at flea market selling me stereo equipment) like a chess match.
> 
> I like to think I've gotten better at this over the last 16+ weeks. I guess my wife would be the only true judge of that, but this is clearly the biggest, most frustrating test of all.
> 
> 
> 
> No offense, but I would stop loving a man who did this, who had this as part of who he is. And if he then said he was getting help to stop being this, I wouldn't believe him. Not for years. Just sayin'.
Click to expand...

So you just took one possible attribute about someone that you don't know, never met, judged him, and crucified him for it? Your sh!t don't sink huh tunera? Where is the constructive criticism in your comment? Don't care if I get banned or not. P!ss off tunera. Keep stupid rude comments like that to yourself. 

Grid is hurting, seeing ic, trying his a $$ off, and doing a heck of a lot more than your H is doing for you. And you kick his teeth in? Save that behavior for your own marriage next time, I'm sure your H loves you for it.


----------



## cbnero

Oh, I forgot...

No offense.

There, that makes it okay.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

gridcom said:


> turnera said:
> 
> 
> 
> No offense, but I would stop loving a man who did this, who had this as part of who he is. And if he then said he was getting help to stop being this, I wouldn't believe him. Not for years. Just sayin'.
> 
> 
> 
> No offense taken.
> 
> Here's some examples.
> 
> "Don't you think it'd be better if XXX was YYY?"
> 
> -Yes
> 
> "Ok, if you agree then why wouldn't you then PPP in order to YYY?"
> 
> - I don't know.
> 
> "But, you just said YYY is better than XXX, so doesnt it make sense that you would PPP in order to YYY?"
> 
> - Please leave me alone
> 
> "This doesn't make sense to me. We are right here. I would think this makes total sense to you"
> 
> - Please, not now. I don't want to talk about this right now.
Click to expand...

Dooooood!

Thanks this is VERY instructive. You're trying to win an argument. If a then b. If...

STOP

K I communicate like you but I also know that these are slash and burn, 2 man in 1 man out types of discussions / negotiations. I do it when I find a DB in my path and have no other recourse than to crush him and make him feel enough pain to avoid me in the future. I specifically do this to clear my path. DO NOT EVER HAVE A CAGE MATCH ARGUMENT WITH YOUR WIFE!

Instead do the win-win argument if you must use the negotiation paradigm. This is the sales negotiation, not the M&A deal negotiation.

Read zig zigger if that resonates. Listen. Ask. Follow up. These are negotiating tactics you can bring into a marriage.

Those who think emotionally do not respond to logical arguments. But it is even offensive to them because it dismissed the information they bring to the decision process that logic discards. 

If a then b. Ok good. How do you feel about b? What about c? Is that even something that appeals to you? No? Why not? I kind if like d & e which are the real benefits of c. Do you like d or e? Yes? E better? Why do you like that? Ok I agree. How do we get to e? That sounds like something we both want. Do you agree?

Plus you HAVE to actually care how she feels about these things. This is the "you're not listening" response. She hates d and you keep throwing it out there and not even asking why she cares about it.

This is a real good post. Please give specific examples like this and we can help.


----------



## Pluto2

gridcom said:


> She's not going to IC. I am.
> Her constructive way for her to wrap her head around this is for me to back off and leave her alone, not talk about the A or our marriage or the future for the forseeable future and give her a chance to breathe.
> 
> I have NOT succesfully done this, although I wake up EVERY DAY thinking today I am going to do exactly that until SHE comes to ME
> 
> This is why I think jld and ANON's approach deserves merit. It's not because it doesn't work. It may, it may not. But, until I actually have the discipline to do it, who knows.
> 
> Today.....is that day.


I understood that you were in IC, my confusion was how she thought she was going to handle this. And from what you are saying she wants to handle this by rugsweeping. To me, that's not a constructive recovery technique.

I trust you when you say you need to work on healthy methods of communication, but she is requiring no communication. Problems don't go away by themselves.

And have you sought independent counsel prior to the scheduled mediation? If you already answered that and I missed it, my bad.


----------



## turnera

gridcom said:


> No offense taken.
> 
> Here's some examples.
> 
> "Don't you think it'd be better if XXX was YYY?"
> 
> -Yes
> 
> "Ok, if you agree then why wouldn't you then PPP in order to YYY?"
> 
> - I don't know.
> 
> "But, you just said YYY is better than XXX, so doesnt it make sense that you would PPP in order to YYY?"
> 
> - Please leave me alone
> 
> "This doesn't make sense to me. We are right here. I would think this makes total sense to you"
> 
> - Please, not now. I don't want to talk about this right now.


Do you realize that such conversations can leave a women feeling vulnerable, disregarded, unloved, even afraid?

And that "I don't want to talk about this right now" means "you just hurt me."

Women react to aggression much differently than men do. And if you have been doing this all your marriage, it is far worse than the occasional blowing up at her, because over time it wears away at her self esteem and self love. She probably feels dead inside when it comes to you because, well, you're the source of her pain.

And btw, this has, as far as I remember, NOT been disclosed before. You said abusive just meant you blow up every now and then but were a great partner otherwise. We could have used this info earlier.


----------



## Chaparral

ThreeStrikes said:


> I would appreciate it if someone can point me to the post where Grid says that Mrs. Grid wants to R.
> 
> I can't find it.


She wants to want to.................which means she doesn't want to.

Girls giving advice on MMSLP is ridiculous. They haven't read it. They ignore human nature and simple biology. They think its about being an alpha dog and it isn't. When folks pontificate on subjects they have no knowledge or experience with, you can ignore the rest of their dribble.


----------



## gridcom

TheTruthHurts said:


> Dooooood!
> 
> Thanks this is VERY instructive. You're trying to win an argument. If a then b. If...
> 
> STOP
> 
> K I communicate like you but I also know that these are slash and burn, 2 man in 1 man out types of discussions / negotiations. I do it when I find a DB in my path and have no other recourse than to crush him and make him feel enough pain to avoid me in the future. I specifically do this to clear my path. DO NOT EVER HAVE A CAGE MATCH ARGUMENT WITH YOUR WIFE!
> 
> Instead do the win-win argument if you must use the negotiation paradigm. This is the sales negotiation, not the M&A deal negotiation.
> 
> Read zig zigger if that resonates. Listen. Ask. Follow up. These are negotiating tactics you can bring into a marriage.
> 
> Those who think emotionally do not respond to logical arguments. But it is even offensive to them because it dismissed the information they bring to the decision process that logic discards.
> 
> If a then b. Ok good. How do you feel about b? What about c? Is that even something that appeals to you? No? Why not? I kind if like d & e which are the real benefits of c. Do you like d or e? Yes? E better? Why do you like that? Ok I agree. How do we get to e? That sounds like something we both want. Do you agree?
> 
> Plus you HAVE to actually care how she feels about these things. This is the "you're not listening" response. She hates d and you keep throwing it out there and not even asking why she cares about it.
> 
> This is a real good post. Please give specific examples like this and we can help.


This is great. I took almost 190 pages to get here. This is specifically how I debate/disagree. I know that it's not healthy

*Those who think emotionally do not respond to logical arguments. *

I need to tattoo this on the inside of my eyes.


----------



## turnera

> I have NOT succesfully done this, although I wake up EVERY DAY thinking today I am going to do exactly that until SHE comes to ME
> 
> This is why I think jld and ANON's approach deserves merit. It's not because it doesn't work. It may, it may not. But, until I actually have the discipline to do it, who knows.
> 
> Today.....is that day.


What does this mean? Are you approaching her every day and asking her what she's doing about stuff? Are you continuing these arguments? If so, why can't you stop? You should be focusing on THIS in therapy.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

turnera said:


> gridcom said:
> 
> 
> 
> No offense taken.
> 
> Here's some examples.
> 
> "Don't you think it'd be better if XXX was YYY?"
> 
> -Yes
> 
> "Ok, if you agree then why wouldn't you then PPP in order to YYY?"
> 
> - I don't know.
> 
> "But, you just said YYY is better than XXX, so doesnt it make sense that you would PPP in order to YYY?"
> 
> - Please leave me alone
> 
> "This doesn't make sense to me. We are right here. I would think this makes total sense to you"
> 
> - Please, not now. I don't want to talk about this right now.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you realize that such conversations can leave a women feeling vulnerable, disregarded, unloved, even afraid?
> 
> And that "I don't want to talk about this right now" means "you just hurt me."
Click to expand...

Yes a good way to put it.

Plus women are like elephants - they never forget


----------



## gridcom

turnera said:


> Do you realize that such conversations can leave a women feeling vulnerable, disregarded, unloved, even afraid?
> 
> And that "I don't want to talk about this right now" means "you just hurt me."


I'm learning quickly today.


----------



## cbnero

And that "I don't want to talk about this right now" means "you just hurt me."

I disagree. I think it means "I refuse to validate how you feel whatsoever. So I'm just ending the conversation and making you feel like a jerk."

The correct way to communicate is to validate. Even if you disagree with 99% of what someone says, but you want to get along. Find that 1% you can understand and agree with. Validate how that person feels. That's what healthy communication looks like. It doesn't mean you always give in. Or that you always get your way. It just means you respect the other person enough to try and understand what they are feeling and then work towards a mutual goal.

Grids wife isn't interested in validating anything. She is all about self preservation. That's it. He can empathize with her all the live long day. Won't make a bit of difference if she can't or doesn't want to do the same.


----------



## turnera

cbnero said:


> So you just took one possible attribute about someone that you don't know, never met, judged him, and crucified him for it? Your sh!t don't sink huh tunera? Where is the constructive criticism in your comment? Don't care if I get banned or not. P!ss off tunera. Keep stupid rude comments like that to yourself.
> 
> Grid is hurting, seeing ic, trying his a $$ off, and doing a heck of a lot more than your H is doing for you. And you kick his teeth in? Save that behavior for your own marriage next time, I'm sure your H loves you for it.


Wow. Uh, ok...

So I was providing information to grid in that when a woman experiences this long term, she loses her love for the man because he is becoming unsafe to her. We've covered ad nauseum what he should be doing to achieve his stated goal - reconciliation - and are just now hearing about this very important aspect of his personality. And now he tells us that he can't stop bugging her, that he TRIES to every day, but doesn't accomplish it.

So this is key to his achieving his goal - understanding what it feels like to be HER. So he can see what it would take for her to START feeling safe around him. When she says leave me alone, we thought it was because she was some lovesick puppy. But it's possible that what she really means is 'your constant barrage is upsetting me and I need you to step back.'


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Grid do you know what saved me and my marriage? Because you and I are pretty alike in our styles it sounds..

I watched my father and 2 brothers interact with me, my wife and my kids. And it scared the sh*t out if me.

You never see yourself when you are in this mode. You are literally in attack mode. Even among guy friends this is a common style. Not us verbal jousting. It is fun and afterwards there are usually no hard feelings (often) and in fact there is usually good ammo for the next engagement. In particular, vulnerabilities are seized upon like the huge prize they represent for the next battle.

I saw this. I saw the one sided communication. No input needed, no input taken thank you. Voice and pitch escalation. Even necks straining forward.

Pretty amazing to watch.

I always explain to my kids what's going on and I laugh about it and let them know these are not my family's (wife/kids) issues - they are my original family's issues. I let me kids know it is their uncles' dysfunction.

They get it and let it slide. They know not to argue as it is pointless. It only escalates things. And they don't take offense and evaluate the ideas on their own merits rather than on the arguments of their uncles.

Dude maybe you should set up a var video and try to catch yourself. You could even tell your wife why you're doing it. She might like that.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Btw I now employ this at work and people think I've changed and get along with people so much better.

Ha ha

Ya know what I now do? Shut the Fock up for a minute, that's all. Let someone else have and express an opinion even when it's a complete bu11sh1t opinion that is demonstrably FALSE. This level of stupidity used to drive me crazy but now I accept it.

Ya know what else? Turns out occasionally a good idea actually comes out if it. Or maybe I can accept a bad one, and slowly work with the person to get then to improve their idea.

Try it. You'll be surprised that it looks like you changed if you just let stupid ideas out and don't try to disprove them.

Normally I'd say be dispassionate with your wife and 180 but if this is what's happening you may only need to pause, let the ideas out, don't judge or look dismissive, and sincerely say "I hadn't thought about it that way" or "hmmmm sound like you've thought about that for a while"


----------



## gridcom

TheTruthHurts said:


> Grid do you know what saved me and my marriage? Because you and I are pretty alike in our styles it sounds..
> 
> I watched my father and 2 brothers interact with me, my wife and my kids. And it scared the sh*t out if me.
> 
> You never see yourself when you are in this mode. You are literally in attack mode. Even among guy friends this is a common style. Not us verbal jousting. It is fun and afterwards there are usually no hard feelings (often) and in fact there is usually good ammo for the next engagement. In particular, vulnerabilities are seized upon like the huge prize they represent for the next battle.
> 
> I saw this. I saw the one sided communication. No input needed, no input taken thank you. Voice and pitch escalation. Even necks straining forward.
> 
> Pretty amazing to watch.
> 
> I always explain to my kids what's going on and I laugh about it and let them know these are not my family's (wife/kids) issues - they are my original family's issues. I let me kids know it is their uncles' dysfunction.
> 
> They get it and let it slide. They know not to argue as it is pointless. It only escalates things. And they don't take offense and evaluate the ideas on their own merits rather than on the arguments of their uncles.
> 
> Dude maybe you should set up a var video and try to catch yourself. You could even tell your wife why you're doing it. She might like that.


It's funny you mention this. I have only recently started thinking about what I must look and sound like. Recently, I had a work peer, whom I've never met and is more successful than me, call me up and started to do exactly what I do. He called because I had a position on something and he didnt understand it. So, he calls. And at first he's nice. And once I start to lay out my reasons of why my thinking is the way it is, he basically sh^ts all over my position, even though in my mind I was making total sense. And he was belittling me. I actually said to him "Oh my God, is this how I sound when I call peers who I see as lower on the pole than me? If so, I thank you for showing me how sh^tty it is" 

I actually said that to the guy. It was the worst peer to peer call I've ever had to go through.


----------



## LongWalk

Do you think your wife's decision to give Retrouvaille a shot is emotional or rational?


----------



## gridcom

LongWalk said:


> Do you think your wife's decision to give Retrouvaille a shot is emotional or rational?


I think she is being honest when she says that there's nothing to lose. She continually says she "wants to want to" give reconciliation an effort. I think that is her being honest. She's been saying that for sometime.


----------



## cbnero

That's not what you said though, is it?

Grid is acting with the usual panic a BS feels as they helplessly watch the person they love destroy their world. 

Beta behavior will not save him here. You can't figure out his wife's head when it's a bag of cats.

Someone said similar earlier - there is the TAM way or the hard way. 100% true.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Grid if what I'm saying resonates then you HAVE to read his needs her needs literally today., I got it at my library.

Here's my take away from that book. I know I'll get all manner of sh1t for summarizing it this way but you MUST understand this:

Sex to a man = talking to a woman

Seriously.

Yeah I get some women are horn dogs like most guys and some guys like to talk so please TAM let's not argue that.

But guys NEVER would understand the above equation.

This is why I step out of meetings when my wife calls. She chats and unloads all manner of detailed plans and thoughts that I can not grasp and may not care about. But I DO care about being there for her and listening to her concerns and thoughts. And I DO tell her I'm glad she called. Because I get the sex=talk thing and she needs to connect when she's stressed or had too many plans to address or things are happening with the kids... Her satisfaction and safety and comfort stem from knowing I'm there to listen and respond (when she wants a response). And BTW she also is kind of proud to have a husband that will leave meetings to listen when the others wouldn't dream of leaving a work meeting for some "unimportant" spouse conversation.


----------



## cbnero

gridcom said:


> LongWalk said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think your wife's decision to give Retrouvaille a shot is emotional or rational?
> 
> 
> 
> I think she is being honest when she says that there's nothing to lose. She continually says she "wants to want to" give reconciliation an effort. I think that is her being honest. She's been saying that for sometime.
Click to expand...

Grid if she were serious about R she would pull the divorce filing. Would you believe a doctor is serious when he says he wants to save your life after he just gave you a dose of lethal poison and at the same time he is filling out your death certificate he says he wants you to die? Oh but maybe he really wants you to live. 

Face reality. Get to 50k. Watch her actions.


----------



## turnera

My H doesn't out-argue me, he actually ASKS me what I think. And then he does what he wanted to do anyway. For years, I internalized it and felt bad about myself (and of course stopped caring for him)...but as I learned through therapy to have strength for myself, I now can sometimes say something like 'you're not going to do what I suggest anyway, so why are you asking?' It makes him pause and really think about it. But I don't think your W is going to come up with that on her own. 

My H has one of the NBA teams as a client and we were there last night; one of the coaches wanted to talk to him about putting in a theater system in his house. So I'm standing there watching DH put on his usual schpiel about electronics and the history of electronics and which thing is better than that thing, and I could see the man's eyes glazing over. DH does love to hear himself talk. Don't get me wrong, he's a genius and everyone knows it. But he never listened to the coach. So afterwards DH asked how he did (he always asks my advice; but usually ignores it), so I told him that what all the other people keep telling him is true - he talks too much, he talks about himself too much, he gets too technical, and he doesn't listen to what the other person says. Now, I've been listening to him gripe about all his coworkers tell him all this same stuff for decades, and he just dismisses them. Well, I saw it in action; he's doing a different version of what you describe, grid. So I told him he needs to start listening to the criticism and ask himself if it's valid, now that he owns his own company, if he wants to get clients. His expertise will only get him so far. Here's hoping.


----------



## just got it 55

Grid I can't make any presumptions of Mrs.G being mean or not.Maybe she has done and said mean things to you.

But do you really see her having a mean and vindictive nature (The A notwithstanding )?

I believe this woman is hopelessly lost and full of fear.

I don't know a thing about Retrouvaille but I guess it can't hurt.

Hopefully it opens both your hearts.

Leave your logic behind (Hard for guys like us to do ) but there you are

It's not about what makes sense to you.

It's about real life not widgets or deal making.

If she can't come to the conclusion on her own what she needs to do to make this right,then there is no point.

I can't imagine the frustration you are having to endure.Not being able to talk with her (not to her) about the A the and the future is pure hell.

It's the not knowing that kills us causing our own lost feelings and fear,which few of us respond to in healthy ways.

I don't imagine she realizes how unfair that is.Not in her mindset I guess

Has Mrs.G given you and indication of when she can talk about Has she said she can't face it or herself ?

Rug sweeping by definition. 

You need an escape. Your children are the best cure for that. Take them away for a weekend. Just the three of you.

Let her have her "space"It's a win win and maybe Mrs. G gets a taste of the future having her children 50% of the time. Just an unintended consequence. 

And you get to chill.

Get out of hell
Get out of Limbo
Get out of Infidelity 

55


----------



## netghost

Listen dude your wife can't control who she falls in love with. Neither can you. Or any of us. It takes courage and good will to come clean towards you. Respect that. However there are kids to consider. In love or not it does not matter. Kids come first. Not you, not her. The kids. And it is well known that divorce wrecks their fragile innocent hearts. So it is up to you to brace yourself for impact. You can take it. You are stronger than you think. My advice is to allow your wife to have an affair, but come home to the kids. Yes, I know how that sounds. But the thing with passionate love (like all other things) is that it never lasts. Do the 180, but keep in mind: 1. Doing it for the kids 2. Your wife did not choose to fall. 3. This too shall pass.


----------



## Evinrude58

I will say this, Grid says she Wants to want to reconcile. I actually think that is a good sign.
I seriously doubt he's headed anywhere but divorce, but I think the last page or two of discussion was pretty meaningful for me, and helpful for you, if only for future relationships.

My wife told me "I don't even WANT to WANT you". She didn't want to reconcile period. She said it would take a miracle to keep us from divorce. This was BEFORE I found out about the cheating.

SO, regardless of what it may sound like, I think there is a possibility of reconciliation IF she would:
1) show remorse
2) give you a chance 
3) communicate with you in a meaningful way/ you comm. with HER in a meaningful way
4) she gets a new job

She has to start showing by her actions that she wants to reconcile. She is NOT, and I doubt she ever will. I think she's made up her mind 99.9%, and that she's playing you.
There is no reason she can't get a new job. Her doing that, and dropping the divorce would take some heat off of you and put you in a place mentally that might not have you running so scared. You are running scared. I was. And it is the opposite way to be to save your marriage. 
She also needs to truly break things off with the guy, and she is NOT. She is requesting songs, and thinking about him and wanting him back. You know how people handle WANTS. They DO what they WANT.

I really doubt there is any hope here, and really think that she is not worth trying for in spite of how it hurts you now and how the kids will be affected. I think you will have a much more successful life with someone who helps you and not holds you back--- as your wife may have once done.

But once again, that one phrase she mentioned is VERY DIFFERENT from what my wife told me. You may have a 1 in a million chance. That's more than I once thought. 
THis is just a thought: I would like to see your wife's response to the following question. Wife, how would you feel about moving to a totally new area of New York where we can just totally start over? Get away from our current home and your job, and start afresh. 
Good luck,
evinrude


----------



## farsidejunky

just got it 55 said:


> Grid I can't make any presumptions of Mrs.G being mean or not.Maybe she has done and said mean things to you.
> 
> But do you really see her having a mean and vindictive nature (The A notwithstanding )?
> 
> I believe this woman is hopelessly lost and full of fear.
> 
> I don't know a thing about Retrouvaille but I guess it can't hurt.
> 
> Hopefully it opens both your hearts.
> 
> Leave your logic behind (Hard for guys like us to do ) but there you are
> 
> It's not about what makes sense to you.
> 
> It's about real life not widgets or deal making.
> 
> If she can't come to the conclusion on her own what she needs to do to make this right,then there is no point.
> 
> I can't imagine the frustration you are having to endure.Not being able to talk with her (not to her) about the A the and the future is pure hell.
> 
> It's the not knowing that kills us causing our own lost feelings and fear,which few of us respond to in healthy ways.
> 
> I don't imagine she realizes how unfair that is.Not in her mindset I guess
> 
> Has Mrs.G given you and indication of when she can talk about Has she said she can't face it or herself ?
> 
> Rug sweeping by definition.
> 
> You need an escape. Your children are the best cure for that. Take them away for a weekend. Just the three of you.
> 
> Let her have her "space"It's a win win and maybe Mrs. G gets a taste of the future having her children 50% of the time. Just an unintended consequence.
> 
> And you get to chill.
> 
> Get out of hell
> Get out of Limbo
> Get out of Infidelity
> 
> 55


This is a great idea.


----------



## just got it 55

netghost said:


> Listen dude your wife can't control who she falls in love with. Neither can you. Or any of us. It takes courage and good will to come clean towards you. Respect that. However there are kids to consider. In love or not it does not matter. Kids come first. Not you, not her. The kids. And it is well known that divorce wrecks their fragile innocent hearts. So it is up to you to brace yourself for impact. You can take it. You are stronger than you think.* My advice is to allow your wife to have an affair, but come home to the kids. Yes, I know how that sounds. *But the thing with passionate love (like all other things) is that it never lasts. Do the 180, but keep in mind: 1. Doing it for the kids 2. Your wife did not choose to fall. 3. This too shall pass.


Not the example I would want my children to learn from 

But maybe that's just me

55


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Nice to see you're owning your POS tendencies, Grid. 

Growth occurs at the precipice. This is exactly what you need.

And now for some levity:


----------



## Workathome

netghost said:


> Listen dude your wife can't control who she falls in love with. Neither can you. Or any of us. It takes courage and good will to come clean towards you. Respect that. However there are kids to consider. In love or not it does not matter. Kids come first. Not you, not her. The kids. And it is well known that divorce wrecks their fragile innocent hearts. So it is up to you to brace yourself for impact. You can take it. You are stronger than you think. My advice is to allow your wife to have an affair, but come home to the kids. Yes, I know how that sounds. But the thing with passionate love (like all other things) is that it never lasts. Do the 180, but keep in mind: 1. Doing it for the kids 2. Your wife did not choose to fall. 3. This too shall pass.


This must be Mrs. Grid. Don't listen to a word of this garbage.


----------



## gridcom

Evinrude58 said:


> THis is just a thought: I would like to see your wife's response to the following question. Wife, how would you feel about moving to a totally new area of New York where we can just totally start over? Get away from our current home and your job, and start afresh.
> Good luck,
> evinrude


I would ask this question, but I have decided a complete stoppage of any talk related to marriage, the future, the AP, or the affair itself.

Meaning strict, no wavering.

That said, this is a good idea. We could use a change of pace. I wonder if she would be into being closer to her family


----------



## LongWalk

Your decision to stop relationship talk makes sense. Here is the first post of Road Scholar's thread

*No sex after her affair...*


> I found out about her affair on 5.1.13. Crushed me. Still does. Married 14 years with two amazing kids I adore. Love my wife. Love my life. Want to work it out. Been doing the Mort Fertel put love first approach. After initial rage I've been trying to keep things cool but not doing a great job with my emotions. Not huge outbursts or anything like that just my tact of question focused on the affair which pust the mood very negative v. positive. My wife says she wants to work it out and try to see if we can have the relationship we both want. Claims to have been unhappy over the years and focuses on all the bad stuff. I admit to not being perfect and to have definitely contributed to a disfunctional marriage looking back on it but at the time I thought things were "ok". I'm sure this is a familiar story. I think we're both trying. Doing joint counseling and we were both doing individual as well but stopped recently as it's just so exhausting and life is demanding with work and kids activities. Very draining. We are mildly affectionate. We cuddle in bed. We kiss but not passionately anymore. She stops it from going anywhere. Bottom line no sex in nearly 5 months even though we were still having sex during her 2 month affair (as far as I know). I haven't pressed for many details but I know enough. I know his name and where he lives. they worked together. I sometimes think about blowing up his life like he did to mine but sent him a text as soon as I found out and told him if he ever spoke to my wife again I would do just that. no evidence he hasn't complied. the no sex thing is killing me. I'm here trying to work **** out and she needs to feel closer to me to have sex with me. Her husband (mostly good) of 14 years and together for about 20. Says she's not feeling it. Struggling with how she feels about me and doesn't feel close to me. I'm trying to be patient and give her time and let her work through this and "put love first" build positive momentum and allow her infatuation with him pass. But any advise or suggestions? I don't believe the affair has started back up and he lives out of town but the no sex thing makes me wonder WTF. She is obviously not willing to take one for the team and it's always sorta been this way. I always want it more and she holds all the cards. Feeling rejected again as before and trying to save my marriage for my family, me, and kids - if it can be salvaged but I feel like I need more from her.


No long after he discovered that she was breaking no contact with OM. Emotionally the affair was still on.


----------



## gridcom

LongWalk said:


> Your decision to stop relationship talk makes sense. Here is the first post of Road Scholar's thread
> 
> *No sex after her affair...*
> 
> 
> No long after he discovered that she was breaking no contact with OM. Emotionally the affair was still on.


A familiar tale


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> A familiar tale


TAM is abundant with this story. It's why the old timers are saying the job has got to go.


----------



## gridcom

ButtPunch said:


> TAM is abundant with this story. It's why the old timers are saying the job has got to go.


Wife has a job interview on Saturday. Went and got the interview on her own. That's good, right? Wheels are spinning somewhere

Her b-day is also tomorrow


----------



## 3Xnocharm

netghost said:


> Listen dude your wife can't control who she falls in love with. Neither can you. Or any of us. It takes courage and good will to come clean towards you. Respect that. However there are kids to consider. In love or not it does not matter. Kids come first. Not you, not her. The kids. And it is well known that divorce wrecks their fragile innocent hearts. So it is up to you to brace yourself for impact. You can take it. You are stronger than you think. My advice is to allow your wife to have an affair, but come home to the kids. Yes, I know how that sounds. But the thing with passionate love (like all other things) is that it never lasts. Do the 180, but keep in mind: 1. Doing it for the kids 2. Your wife did not choose to fall. 3. This too shall pass.


This is one of the biggest loads of bullsh!t Ive read on this site yet.....


----------



## farsidejunky

gridcom said:


> Wife has a job interview on Saturday. Went and got the interview on her own. That's good, right? Wheels are spinning somewhere
> 
> Her b-day is also tomorrow


50,000 feet, Grid. 

Keep watching her actions.


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> Wife has a job interview on Saturday. Went and got the interview on her own. That's good, right? Wheels are spinning somewhere
> 
> Her b-day is also tomorrow


That is a positive action. She quits that job and I will feel much better about R.


----------



## LongWalk

Did you buy her a vintage Pixie album?


----------



## farsidejunky

LongWalk said:


> Did you buy her a vintage Pixie album?


Wow, LW.


----------



## just got it 55

gridcom said:


> Wife has a job interview on Saturday. Went and got the interview on her own. That's good, right? Wheels are spinning somewhere
> 
> Her b-day is also tomorrow


Happy Birthday Mrs.G

Give yourself a nice gift and end this madness

We hope for the best for your family

I know you are hurt and confused but please for all that is sacred 

Help yourself get well emotionally.

55

ETA: one can only hope an interweb stranger can have some influence on Mrs. Grid


----------



## gridcom

I don't think she is on here often, if at all. And honestly, it's hard to keep up some days. Not complaining, you guys have ALL been great. She's pretty busy and when she's in slow down mode, she's Facebook and Words With Friends and hopefully nothing marriage damaging 

That said, I don't know for sure.


----------



## Chuck71

turnera said:


> Oh please. I haven't been in love with my husband for at LEAST 20 years and I still have sex with him. I just get it over with to keep him from pawing at me for another 5 or 6 days.
> 
> Ok, it's not quite that bad, but you have to understand that *women have been faking sex for thousands of years* to survive.
> 
> Women have sex for MANY REASONS.


Damnit pop you were right.....

in the voice of Anakin in the last scenes of Episode 6

"you were right"


----------



## Chuck71

ThreeStrikes said:


> Some folks here are making a lot of assumptions about Mrs. Grid's feelings, emotions, FOO issues, communication methods, etc.
> 
> Please, please, PLEASE tell me where I can get one of these magic eight-balls you all seem to have!
> 
> Anon says Mrs. Grid needs therapy. Well, duh! Don't all cheaters devoid of integrity?
> 
> Grid is too smart for MMSLP? LOL! Nah, he's an a$$ like the rest of us.
> 
> Grid, I've said it before and I'll say it again: Don't even* try* to untangle Mrs. Grid's skein of *fvckupedness*.
> 
> It's not your job to fix her. One day, when her family is broken and her life is a shambles, she may hit rock bottom and start to own her POS tendencies. Then she *might* attain enough humility to get some IC.
> 
> Odds are she'll latch onto some other sucker and start the cycle again, though.
> 
> You focus on you.


If that's not an official word...... it needs to be


----------



## Chuck71

Pluto2 said:


> That is a cheap shot and a personal attack on Turnera, simply because she disagrees.


I would say that was a passive aggressive tactic

as one poster indicated about a week ago

but then about 50 posts were deleted....


----------



## Chuck71

LongWalk said:


> This means she will consider forgiving you if you keep your mouth shut. To her the power balance in your relationship is better than in the past. She could not articulate her dissatisfaction and resentment. When she had the affair and filed for divorce her status shot up to _*she who decides*_.
> 
> She is not going to relinquish this power without a fight.
> 
> However, as you have pointed out previously, she refuses to consider post divorce reality.
> 
> Stay calm.


Grid explained in the past, he had a majority of the power balance

Now he feels she does.

Didn't work with him having majority and as the thread indicates is not with her having majority

This power shift reminds me of Sub-Saharan Africa after about 1950. 65 years later... not much has changed.

Grid you are responsible for 100% of your 50%

She is responsible for 100% of her 50%

No more.... no less


----------



## cbnero

Maybe. Is she getting a new job so she can make more money and leave you? I wouldn't try to mind read this woman, at all. She filed the divorce. No actions indicate she wants to R. Divorce paperwork not pulled. Emotional and communication attachment to OM still exists. I will congratulate you when it's real. New job means nothing yet.


----------



## Chuck71

ButtPunch said:


> Anybody else find it odd that Grid's IC is not coaching him thru the stages of grief but instead is coaching him to communicate better.
> 
> My IC coached me thru the grief process when I went thru this.


My IC / best female friend told me the pitbull speech back in '94.

She added "yet do you feel you must be a pitbull to be heard?'

While doing an intern in the MC field.... I did view one story

"He never listened to my needs. So I cheated on him. Now he listens." Yes.... they eventually D


----------



## Chuck71

LongWalk said:


> Ginger Baker was difficult to get along with.


Ginger Bread was the worst though....


----------



## Chuck71

farsidejunky said:


> This is a form of control, Grid.
> 
> You "need" her to see it your way. I suffer(ed) from the same thing.
> 
> She does not have to see it your way.
> 
> When you have discussed, and are still at an impasse, simply say:
> 
> "I see it differently."
> 
> Then walk away. If she wants to discuss it again, she will initiate the dialogue.


I learned from pop how to NOT do this. He didn't care if mom understood what the discussion was about,

just that she agreed (or disagreed). How can one agree or disagree when they have yet to understand.

With my XW... I asked first, do you understand, then do you agree.

If she did not understand, what was the point in asking if she agreed or not?


----------



## Vulcan2013

Grid, one of the core pieces of good advice in MMSL is learning to generally STFU. It's so easy to work on convincing your W you're right, but it never works. Hear her feelings,try to gain some perspective, and don't seek any validation from her at all.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Sorry Grid, I see the tug of war is ongoing. I have no clue or context of where the bickering is now because, I have a way of basically reading only your posts. No matter what you decide please remember, retro is not going to be the all knowing, all saving lifeline it keeps being portrayed as by some posters. 

Basically, it"ll be an intense one on one version of TAM without the arguments and bickering from the peanut gallery. I'm not saying it can't help, I'm saying don't base all of your decisions, about this marriage, on the outcome of a retreat.

Before any butthurt rises to epic proportions, I responded to this thread so,I am part of the peanut gallery as well.


----------



## Chuck71

netghost said:


> Listen dude your wife can't control who she falls in love with. Neither can you. Or any of us. It takes courage and good will to come clean towards you. Respect that. However there are kids to consider. In love or not it does not matter. Kids come first. Not you, not her. The kids. And it is well known that divorce wrecks their fragile innocent hearts. So it is up to you to brace yourself for impact. You can take it. You are stronger than you think. My advice is to allow your wife to have an affair, but come home to the kids. Yes, I know how that sounds. But the thing with passionate love (like all other things) is that it never lasts. Do the 180, but keep in mind: 1. Doing it for the kids 2. Your wife did not choose to fall. 3. This too shall pass.


Lawd have mercy! Do you think he should give her his CC and spring for the room too?

Maybe let POSOM come and pick her up? Would it be better for him if he logs into

hotels.com to find them a cheaper room? C'mon.... seriously?


----------



## gridcom

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Sorry Grid, I see the tug of war is ongoing. I have no clue or context of where the bickering is now because, I have a way of basically reading only your posts. No matter what you decide please remember, retro is not going to be the all knowing, all saving lifeline it keeps being portrayed as by some posters.
> 
> Basically, it"ll be an intense one on one version of TAM without the arguments and bickering from the peanut gallery. I'm not saying it can't help, I'm saying don't base all of your decisions, about this marriage, on the outcome of a retreat.
> 
> Before any butthurt rises to epic proportions, I responded to this thread so,I am part of the peanut gallery as well.


Yeah, my "fear", I suppose. That it'll come and go and it'll be like it never even happened.


----------



## GusPolinski

gridcom said:


> I don't think she is on here often, if at all. And honestly, it's hard to keep up some days. Not complaining, you guys have ALL been great. She's pretty busy and when she's in slow down mode, she's Facebook and *Words With Friends* and hopefully nothing marriage damaging
> 
> That said, I don't know for sure.


Oh?

Words With Friends Is Basically a Dating App - The Wire

Texts From Last Night

Did Words With Friends Make You More Than Friends? [POLL]


----------



## farsidejunky

GusPolinski said:


> Oh?
> 
> Words With Friends Is Basically a Dating App - The Wire
> 
> Texts From Last Night
> 
> Did Words With Friends Make You More Than Friends? [POLL]


Grid?


----------



## bfree

Oh crap


----------



## ButtPunch

I remember a thread a while back where words with friends was used to cheat.


----------



## gridcom

GusPolinski said:


> Oh?
> 
> Words With Friends Is Basically a Dating App - The Wire
> 
> Texts From Last Night
> 
> Did Words With Friends Make You More Than Friends? [POLL]


Gus! I've checked Words With Friends on her phone a few times since this began. I'm on it!
Clean.


----------



## GusPolinski

gridcom said:


> Gus! I've checked Words With Friends on her phone a few times since this began. I'm on it!
> Clean.


Just keeping you on your toes.


----------



## bfree

Whew


----------



## Archangel2

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Sorry Grid, I see the tug of war is ongoing. I have no clue or context of where the bickering is now because, I have a way of basically reading only your posts. No matter what you decide please remember,* retro is not going to be the all knowing, all saving lifeline it keeps being portrayed as by some posters.
> *
> Basically, it"ll be an intense one on one version of TAM without the arguments and bickering from the peanut gallery. I'm not saying it can't help, I'm saying don't base all of your decisions, about this marriage, on the outcome of a retreat.
> 
> Before any butthurt rises to epic proportions, I responded to this thread so,I am part of the peanut gallery as well.


I want to quote something from the Retrouvaille website:

"...provides the tools to help put your marriage in order again. The main emphasis of the program is on communication in marriage between husband and wife. It will give you the opportunity to rediscover each other and examine your lives together in a new and positive way".

The rigorousness of the program and the follow-up weekends will be the acid test for the OP and his wife. They will either be all-in for the program or not. Either they will rediscover each other, decide that they will agree to disagree and divorce or one of them will not give 100+% and then this marriage will dissolve.

Grid, I hope for your part you will be all-in for the program, so if things do not work out, you can look yourself in the mirror every morning and say "I tried" and then move on.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

gridcom said:


> Yeah, my "fear", I suppose. That it'll come and go and it'll be like it never even happened.


No, not what I mean. 

Since the website is being quoted here's another one:


> Retrouvaille works when both spouses are open to the program.


It may help immensely, but your marriage might still end. See it as another tool to help fix your marriage or help you let it go. Just don't get caught up in it being the ultimate game changer in fixing your marriage. Have reasonable and logical expectations.


----------



## LongWalk

Words with Friends can be used for sexting, but no pictures available.

Texts From Last Night

But for that matter even TAM has been used to sext, with money shot pictures even.


----------



## Chuck71

LongWalk said:


> Words with Friends can be used for sexting, but no pictures available.
> 
> Texts From Last Night
> 
> But for that matter even TAM has been used to sext, with money shot pictures even.


The heII you say


----------



## Pluto2

gridcom said:


> Wife has a job interview on Saturday. Went and got the interview on her own. That's good, right? Wheels are spinning somewhere
> 
> Her b-day is also tomorrow


It is a change, hopefully it is in the right direction.

Hope you and Mrs. Grid have fun and happy birthday Mrs. G.


----------



## Anon Pink

Grid,

I'm glad to see the light bulb is going off wrt how you communicate and the message that method sends. It's very hard to alter a long held communication pattern. 

Couple things to keep in mind, like FarSide pointed out discussions don't have to have a winner, or agreement. The most important thing discussions should accomplish for BOTH people is that they both walk away feeling as if they have been heard.

As I mentioned, seek first to understand. This means you change your goal from winning to a stated goal of "I want to understand how you feel about this." Your questions should be worded to allow her to express her feelings without having to justify them. 

Hearing her is not agreeing. Seeking to understand is not condoning. Sometimes reflective listening works beautifully. Reflective is when you restate what you heard them say, using slightly different words.

*Her*: "I don't want to paint the house with colonial colors I want sea shore colors."
*Him*: "Okay you like sea shore colors better than colonial colors. Is this a personal feeling or do you have other ideas that won't work with the colonial theme?"
*Her*: "I just don't like the colonial theme. The sea shore allows for brighter color use."
*Him*: "I see, the brighter color palette is what appeals to you the most."
*Her*: "yes and I hate having our house having the same theme as everyone else in the neighborhood. I hate how the HOA thinks they can tell us what to do."
*Him*: "yes I think a lot of people don't like that about the HOA. It's our house right?"
*Her*: "exactly. Who do they think they are!"
*Him*: "totally understand it feels like they have too much power over our house. But what do we do when the HOA takes us to court for violating the agreement? We had to sign that thing so I'm concerned about the money wel'll have to spend either defending ourselves or repainting the house."
*Her*: "I don't care about that! I refuse to let them make our decisions!"
*Him*: "yeah you are a tough one who hates being told what to do! (Said affectionately) I think we should take more time and think about it."

In this example she is digging in her heels and being stubborn. She knows you've made the important point but won't admit it. Tabling the issue after she feels heard de-escalates her stubbornness allowing her to slowly let it go and come to the right decision or at least stop fighting YOU. This is an empass but she feels heard and doesn't feel overpowered or pushed. Follow up conversations should demonstrate her being more open to alternatives and less stubborn because she is being heard, not being over powered or talked down to, and not feeling judged.

By the way, this technique works beautifully on young teen daughters who are totally emotionally driven and can be as stubborn as a donkey! 



When you inevitably find yourself in the midst of discussing something and you've gone off course, stop. Just stop. Explain you're working on communicating better and then ask to start the discussion all over again so you can do it better this time. If you employ this technique your wife will probably be initially skeptical, but your earnest attempts will reveal YOUR strength. Insisting on being right is not strength. Being able to make her feel heard is not weakness. It is the opposite. 

Hope you're sleeping better.


----------



## ButtPunch

Anon Pink said:


> Grid,
> 
> Insisting on being right is not strength.


I just spit diet coke on my computer monitor. Oh the irony.


----------



## Anon Pink

Chuck71 said:


> The heII you say



http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/215762-sending-tribute-shot-cheating.html

Good times....not.


----------



## bfree

Anon Pink said:


> Grid,
> 
> I'm glad to see the light bulb is going off wrt how you communicate and the message that method sends. It's very hard to alter a long held communication pattern.
> 
> Couple things to keep in mind, like FarSide pointed out discussions don't have to have a winner, or agreement. The most important thing discussions should accomplish for BOTH people is that they both walk away feeling as if they have been heard.
> 
> As I mentioned, seek first to understand. This means you change your goal from winning to a stated goal of "I want to understand how you feel about this." Your questions should be worded to allow her to express her feelings without having to justify them.
> 
> Hearing her is not agreeing. Seeking to understand is not condoning. Sometimes reflective listening works beautifully. Reflective is when you restate what you heard them say, using slightly different words.
> 
> *Her*: "I don't want to paint the house with colonial colors I want sea shore colors."
> *Him*: "Okay you like sea shore colors better than colonial colors. Is this a personal feeling or do you have other ideas that won't work with the colonial theme?"
> *Her*: "I just don't like the colonial theme. The sea shore allows for brighter color use."
> *Him*: "I see, the brighter color palette is what appeals to you the most."
> *Her*: "yes and I hate having our house having the same theme as everyone else in the neighborhood. I hate how the HOA thinks they can tell us what to do."
> *Him*: "yes I think a lot of people don't like that about the HOA. It's our house right?"
> *Her*: "exactly. Who do they think they are!"
> *Him*: "totally understand it feels like they have too much power over our house. But what do we do when the HOA takes us to court for violating the agreement? We had to sign that thing so I'm concerned about the money wel'll have to spend either defending ourselves or repainting the house."
> *Her*: "I don't care about that! I refuse to let them make our decisions!"
> *Him*: "yeah you are a tough one who hates being told what to do! (Said affectionately) I think we should take more time and think about it."
> 
> In this example she is digging in her heels and being stubborn. She knows you've made the important point but won't admit it. Tabling the issue after she feels heard de-escalates her stubbornness allowing her to slowly let it go and come to the right decision or at least stop fighting YOU. This is an empass but she feels heard and doesn't feel overpowered or pushed. Follow up conversations should demonstrate her being more open to alternatives and less stubborn because she is being heard, not being over powered or talked down to, and not feeling judged.
> 
> By the way, this technique works beautifully on young teen daughters who are totally emotionally driven and can be as stubborn as a donkey!
> 
> 
> 
> When you inevitably find yourself in the midst of discussing something and you've gone off course, stop. Just stop. Explain you're working on communicating better and then ask to start the discussion all over again so you can do it better this time. If you employ this technique your wife will probably be initially skeptical, but your earnest attempts will reveal YOUR strength. Insisting on being right is not strength. Being able to make her feel heard is not weakness. It is the opposite.
> 
> Hope you're sleeping better.


It's hard to alter a long established communication style but it can be done with patience and persistence. I know, I've had to do it. And whether the marriage survives or not doesn't affect this in the least because effective coparenting will require good communication. Good example btw. Reminds me of a recent discussion I had with my wife. Except I was the one that was emotional (angry) and she used it on me to validate and calm me down. Lol


----------



## Anon Pink

bfree said:


> It's hard to alter a long established communication style but it can be done with patience and persistence. I know, I've had to do it. And whether the marriage survives or not doesn't affect this in the least because effective coparenting will require good communication. Good example btw. Reminds me of a recent discussion I had with my wife. Except I was the one that was emotional (angry) and she used it on me to validate and calm me down. Lol


Exactly, thank you bfree.

I've been saying this all along. Grid has been overbearing, and he admits this. His wife has mountains of resentment to work through. Yet, I've been challenged on just about everything I post. For this marriage to survive, grid has to learn to hear her as he already has learned to recognize his side of the street. It is a possibility to re-engage his wife if she feels like she can communicate and be heard. Talking about the affair, for right now, should be off the table because she WONT talk about anything that challenging if she doesn't feel safe to talk.

Having said all of that, her affair is on her. Grid being a bit of a bully, being over bearing laid the groundwork for her to disengage and close him off. 

I really believe this marriage can be saved if grid learns to hear. It will enable her to talk and feel heard. Once she feels safe enough to talk and be heard, she will be more open to examining her side of the street. That, in a nut shell, is what therapy does. Enables the client to feel heard, not feel judged, thus making them open to examining how their own thinking/behavior patterns could be altered for better outcomes.


----------



## farsidejunky

I agree that communication needs to improve. My wife and I are proof that when a couple wants to improve their dynamic, it can be done.

That said, I simply do not share the warm and fuzzy that some have about Mrs. Grid. She is playing things incredibly too close to the vest for any semblance of comfort.

I do not trust her intentions.


----------



## Pluto2

Yeah, I honestly do not see this as a situation where Grid's communication style brought about his wife's affair. That's an awfully simplistic view, both of their relationship and of Mrs. G. emotional maturity.

Having said that, everyone can always benefit form improving communication.


----------



## LongWalk

So what would you have done for her birthday normally? What did you do?

Do your daughters expect mommy to blow out candles?

Re: communication skills
My father was board certified neurologist/psychiatrist. When he was functional as a psychotherapist he could listen to his patients and rephrase their statements and ask couples to restate each other's points of view.

As he got older he lost this ability. It's good to master communication techniques.

However, it has to be real. To parrot back statements of disrespect is a form of self degradation.

For example, if she says that she still has feelings for OM, Grid should not say "You think you are still in love with your co-worker."

He should say "I am sorry you feel that way, but it explains why we are divorcing".


----------



## farsidejunky

LongWalk said:


> For example, if she says that she still has feelings for OM, Grid should not say "You think you are still in love with your co-worker."
> 
> He should say "I am sorry you feel that way, but it explains why we are divorcing".


Love this.

Grid, see the difference between logical and emotional communication?


----------



## gridcom

Anon Pink said:


> Grid,
> 
> I'm glad to see the light bulb is going off wrt how you communicate and the message that method sends. It's very hard to alter a long held communication pattern.
> 
> Couple things to keep in mind, like FarSide pointed out discussions don't have to have a winner, or agreement. The most important thing discussions should accomplish for BOTH people is that they both walk away feeling as if they have been heard.
> 
> As I mentioned, seek first to understand. This means you change your goal from winning to a stated goal of "I want to understand how you feel about this." Your questions should be worded to allow her to express her feelings without having to justify them.
> 
> Hearing her is not agreeing. Seeking to understand is not condoning. Sometimes reflective listening works beautifully. Reflective is when you restate what you heard them say, using slightly different words.
> 
> *Her*: "I don't want to paint the house with colonial colors I want sea shore colors."
> *Him*: "Okay you like sea shore colors better than colonial colors. Is this a personal feeling or do you have other ideas that won't work with the colonial theme?"
> *Her*: "I just don't like the colonial theme. The sea shore allows for brighter color use."
> *Him*: "I see, the brighter color palette is what appeals to you the most."
> *Her*: "yes and I hate having our house having the same theme as everyone else in the neighborhood. I hate how the HOA thinks they can tell us what to do."
> *Him*: "yes I think a lot of people don't like that about the HOA. It's our house right?"
> *Her*: "exactly. Who do they think they are!"
> *Him*: "totally understand it feels like they have too much power over our house. But what do we do when the HOA takes us to court for violating the agreement? We had to sign that thing so I'm concerned about the money wel'll have to spend either defending ourselves or repainting the house."
> *Her*: "I don't care about that! I refuse to let them make our decisions!"
> *Him*: "yeah you are a tough one who hates being told what to do! (Said affectionately) I think we should take more time and think about it."
> 
> In this example she is digging in her heels and being stubborn. She knows you've made the important point but won't admit it. Tabling the issue after she feels heard de-escalates her stubbornness allowing her to slowly let it go and come to the right decision or at least stop fighting YOU. This is an empass but she feels heard and doesn't feel overpowered or pushed. Follow up conversations should demonstrate her being more open to alternatives and less stubborn because she is being heard, not being over powered or talked down to, and not feeling judged.
> 
> By the way, this technique works beautifully on young teen daughters who are totally emotionally driven and can be as stubborn as a donkey!
> 
> 
> 
> When you inevitably find yourself in the midst of discussing something and you've gone off course, stop. Just stop. Explain you're working on communicating better and then ask to start the discussion all over again so you can do it better this time. If you employ this technique your wife will probably be initially skeptical, but your earnest attempts will reveal YOUR strength. Insisting on being right is not strength. Being able to make her feel heard is not weakness. It is the opposite.
> 
> Hope you're sleeping better.


This is extremely helpful


----------



## Keepin-my-head-up

She filed.
You were served.
You said she would need a new job to make it.
She has an interview on Saturday.

She contacted a lawyer.

So does this mean the sentence
"I want to want to reconcile." 
Is equal to but not greater than the sentence
"I love you but not in love with you?"

Did you ask her when she last spoke to her lawyer?
Actions are speaking right now.


----------



## Anon Pink

LongWalk said:


> So what would you have done for her birthday normally? What did you do?
> 
> Do your daughters expect mommy to blow out candles?
> 
> Re: communication skills
> My father was board certified neurologist/psychiatrist. When he was functional as a psychotherapist he could listen to his patients and rephrase their statements and ask couples to restate each other's points of view.
> 
> As he got older he lost this ability. It's good to master communication techniques.
> 
> However, it has to be real. To parrot back statements of disrespect is a form of self degradation.
> 
> For example, if she says that she still has feelings for OM, Grid should not say "You think you are still in love with your co-worker."
> 
> He should say "I am sorry you feel that way, but it explains why we are divorcing".


I was in a team building event and the facilitator used the Parrot Back technique. "I think our process works well overall." And he'd say, "if I hear you correctly, you're saying you think our process works well overall." And I'd mutter under my breath, "yes you idiot! Now stop repeating everything I say!" I think the direct replay is demeaning though it works well for little kids.

If grid's wife says, she thinks she still has feelings for the other man, grid's reply should be, "I can see how those feelings leave you confused about us." Then walk away. That's it. No more. No retort. No come back. No confiding how that statement makes him feel. No divorce talk. She isn't opening up to be judged, but to be heard and he should hear her. Her feelings aren't open to discussion or debate; they're not right or wrong. They just are.


----------



## Pluto2

Agree to disagree on this. 

Being patronizing is counter-productive. Be honest, just not over-bearing.

"Anyone who assumes that their spouse cannot handle truth is being incredibly disrespectful, manipulative and in the final analysis, dangerous."-from Harley's cite.


----------



## turnera

Chuck71 said:


> The heII you say


One of our longtime posters here is with a man she met here. Who just came here looking to meet a vulnerable woman.


----------



## Chuck71

turnera said:


> One of our longtime posters here is with a man she met here. Who just came here looking to meet a vulnerable woman.


It's possible to meet up with anyone anywhere. A neighbor met his wife in unemployment line in early 80s.

AOL used to be a huge hook up locale, then MySpace, now FB. In the three years I have been on TAM,

I can't count the times two long lost HS former flames reconnect there and.... EA....... PA.

It used to take a bit of initiative to cheat... when phone calls and snail mail were the main avenues.

With technology everywhere... it seems harder NOT to cheat, than cheat.


----------



## just got it 55

Grid I lifted this from LS

"I've read a lot of threads and spent a lot of time in IC... The OW and I have already decided that I should make an honest effort with my family to see if I can work it out...... but I don't really want to try right now bc I can't stop thinking about the OW. I was drawn to her for so long before I said anything, it's been impossible for me to just turn off my feelings".

The job has got to go for this to work out for you

But it's going to take more than that.

55


----------



## manfromlamancha

Keepin-my-head-up said:


> She filed.
> You were served.
> You said she would need a new job to make it.
> She has an interview on Saturday.
> 
> She contacted a lawyer.
> 
> So does this mean the sentence
> "I want to want to reconcile."
> Is equal to but not greater than the sentence
> "I love you but not in love with you?"
> 
> Did you ask her when she last spoke to her lawyer?
> Actions are speaking right now.


This is how I see it too.

She is *doing* what she needs to in order to move ahead with her plans to separate and divorce. You ask if this is good news - I would say yes but not for the reasons you might be thinking. She is moving on.


----------



## Evinrude58

Who knows what she is thinking. It's either she is getting ready to move on, or she is actually interested in reconciling. I think it's that she might see the wrong of staying at the job and she is trying to move from it.
I hope that's it. If not, I hope he's got his lawyer giving him good advice and grid is taking it. She may have just gone to the interview to get grid off her back, has no real intention of changing jobs. Hard to say.


----------



## just got it 55

Evinrude58 said:


> Who knows what she is thinking. It's either she is getting ready to move on, or she is actually interested in reconciling. I think it's that she might see the wrong of staying at the job and she is trying to move from it.
> I hope that's it. If not, I hope he's got his lawyer giving him good advice and grid is taking it. She may have just gone to the interview to get grid off her back, has no real intention of changing jobs. Hard to say.


We have seen "communication is key" over and over on many threads

But that is incomplete.

*Honest* communication is key

55


----------



## ButtPunch

Evinrude58 said:


> Who knows what she is thinking. It's either she is getting ready to move on, or she is actually interested in reconciling. I think it's that she might see the wrong of staying at the job and she is trying to move from it.
> I hope that's it. If not, I hope he's got his lawyer giving him good advice and grid is taking it. She may have just gone to the interview to get grid off her back, has no real intention of changing jobs. Hard to say.


I agree. She is playing pretty close to the vest. Her actions look like she is moving on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

grid, how's it going on changing your interactions?


----------



## gridcom

turnera said:


> grid, how's it going on changing your interactions?


Perfect so far. Went to MC this morning. She said she is "committed to the process"


----------



## GusPolinski

gridcom said:


> Perfect so far. Went to MC this morning. She said she is "committed to the process"


OK, but which process?


----------



## lifeistooshort

gridcom said:


> Perfect so far. Went to MC this morning. She said she is "committed to the process"


Well that's promising. I would make clear to her that if she decides she's not all in not only will you hold the door for her but you'll help her move (figuratively speaking of course). If she knows she's free to leave and you're not going to berate her into "doing the right thing" then you'll know she's there because she wants to be. That's the only scenario in which you can work toward R.....one where there are equal amounts of power between the two of you.

You want a wife who's there because she wants to be, not because she has no other options.


----------



## farsidejunky

gridcom said:


> Perfect so far. Went to MC this morning. She said she is "committed to the process"


I know it feels like you are under a microscope, brother. 

But being committed to the "process" is much different than being committed to "you", or the "marriage", or even the "family".

From the cheap seats, it sounds like cautious wording. I hope I am wrong.


----------



## LongWalk

Your wife has at least three possible reasons for divorcing you:

1) Loves OM

2) She does not love you and does not want to live a loveless marriage

3) She feels the affair has ruined your relationship, so that even if love exists in some damaged form, it will be intolerable.

Her reasons for remaining married are:

1) she believes that she will fall back in love with you.

2) An intact family is more important to your children than the happiness of their parents.

3) she can hurt you more by staying than leaving


----------



## Evinrude58

What I've read could mean:

Looking for a job--- wanting to get the temptation off 

Being committed to the process/-- Good thing

Saying she wants to want to reconcile: good thing. At least she seems to want to possibly stay

Having sex with you--- at least you know she likes it and isn't totally repulsed.

I think as long as legal stuff isn't being ignored on your end, you're doing ok.
Next few weeks will tell the real story.

Good luck


----------



## gridcom

farsidejunky said:


> I know it feels like you are under a microscope, brother.
> 
> But being committed to the "process" is much different than being committed to "you", or the "marriage", or even the "family".
> 
> From the cheap seats, it sounds like cautious wording. I hope I am wrong.


I think the whole phrase was "committed to the process, but not committed to a result." I think that's fair, as long as "committed to the process" is true. I dont know for sure that it is.

Lets Go Mets


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> I think the whole phrase was "committed to the process, but not committed to a result." I think that's fair, as long as "committed to the process" is true. I dont know for sure that it is.
> 
> Lets Go Mets


Remember it doesn't matter what she says. Watch what she does.


----------



## bandit.45

Not of her talk is worth a flying fvck. 

Until she quits her job and extricates herself from the OM, all that money you are spending on MC is cash down the crapper. 

She is doing MC for political reasons. She will go, but she won't do a damn thing outside MC to make things better. Eventually Grid will tire of this and file for D. Then she will go and tell everyone that she tried to save the marriage by going to MC but that it was not enough, and it was her controlling jerk of a husband who chose to end the marriage. 

It will all be Grids fault, and she walks away smelling like a rose.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Keepin-my-head-up

gridcom said:


> Thanks all, I guess. I'll be honest I am shocked by these responses, and perhaps in denial. I need you all to know that I have done some crummy things, mainly being a self absorbed jerk. Just jerky things. Being a ****, basically. She has warned me that she was at the end of her rope MANY times, but I was in denial about that until this week. The end of her rope comments, the occasional "we're done" comments, would always be at the end of a fight. We are both Italian and raised Italian and to me, you fight, you get it out, and it's over. Again, I've done some ****ty things. We fought in March and it was a bad one (over total nonsense, but we're both pretty stubborn) and my reaction was to tell her I was going to see a lawyer when I never went and saw a lawyer. Shameful petty ****. See? I told you this isnt all on her. I know I am coming down hard on myself, and at my core I am a good, caring guy. I'm emotional and have great care and, again in my defense, am a terrific husband in many ways. Certainly a terrific father.
> 
> 
> Now, the cut is deep and my reaction to it has been exactly what you all have told me not to do. Unbelieveable regret and yearning to "make it up to her", to head dive into therapy to fix whatever it is inside me that not only makes me a ****, but why I cant see it while it's happening. In many ways, I am a very introverted person when it comes to these matters. I am weirdly emotional and thus I try and hide my flaws from others (as I have known they exist but never sought out why). I feel like I want to tell our loved ones that I am the one who is flawed and ask them for guidance and encouragment and to root for me while I get to the bottom of it and become the husband that she has wanted me to be.
> 
> And I am reading that I need to go to a lawyer and beat her to the punch and get tested for STD's and all this and that, and as you can imagine my reaction is simply "No! we can overcome this!" Our children, our two amazing daughters, would be devastated beyond belief. Even if it was her straw that broke the camels back, they'd never forgive me, because, say what you will, I 100% feel at fault. I took her for granted and now I got burned
> 
> You need to know that
> 
> I dont think the man in question is married, but I'd imagine he's younger. I dont know anything about him and dont want to know. I just want him to go away.
> 
> Thank you all. It feels good just to write. I am a mess right now.







in this post you have admitted not listening to advice and it backfiring.
saying you went with the want to fix it mode.

you still are doing the same ol same ol.

in the time between the quote I took and now,
she has filed, had you served, retained a lawyer, yada yada yada.

Get a Lawyer or at the very least, do not go into the mediation if she brings her lawyer!
did you ask her if she is bringing her lawyer?
has she been in contact with him?
seriously,
that question will tell you a lot.
if she is feeling chatty, ask her what they are talking about.
you don't have a lawyer so right now you don't even know where you should be at in this process.

You feel sick fro your end wondering what could have been if you had done x instead of y.
I get that.

You also can say you expect divorce to be the most likely outcome.

You are not preparing for it though


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Ah semantics. Hopefully, she means it in a positive manner. What are your state laws on divorce? Many require a good effort in marriage counseling before divorce. Sorry, "committed to the process" sounds too clinical and legal for me.


----------



## ConanHub

I think it is good. She does need to be committed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tech-novelist

turnera said:


> Oh please. I haven't been in love with my husband for at LEAST 20 years and I still have sex with him. I just get it over with to keep him from pawing at me for another 5 or 6 days.
> 
> Ok, it's not quite that bad, but you have to understand that women have been *faking sex* for thousands of years to survive.
> 
> Women have sex for MANY REASONS.


Faking sex? How do you do that?


----------



## ConanHub

technovelist said:


> Faking sex? How do you do that?


Ancient Chinese secret! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cbnero

bandit.45 said:


> Not of her talk is worth a flying fvck.
> 
> Until she quits her job and extricates herself from the OM, all that money you are spending on MC is cash down the crapper.
> 
> She is doing MC for political reasons. She will go, but she won't do a damn thing outside MC to make things better. Eventually Grid will tire of this and file for D. Then she will go and tell everyone that she tried to save the marriage by going to MC but that it was not enough, and it was her controlling jerk of a husband who chose to end the marriage.
> 
> It will all be Grids fault, and she walks away smelling like a rose.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So... you mean exactly what happened to me? Cmon bandit I'm sure that I'm the exception and that would never be the case for anyone else. 

I really hope the path he chose works out otherwise this thread will be referred to as the perfect example of what not to do and advice to follow for every BS that comes to TAM going forward. 

Mind reading the WS? Check
Zero boundaries by BS? Check
Ignoring obvious bargaining in grief stage? Check
Ignoring the filed divorce? Check
BS reluctant/refusing to get own attorney? Check
Ignoring experienced TAM advice? Check
WS still working with OM? Check
WS still having hidden communication with OM? Check
Counseling (waste of time) while OM still in the picture? Check
Blame shifting, projection, gaslighting, cake eating? Check 

Yeah, what could go wrong? Looks like happily ever after to me.


----------



## Evinrude58

Nooooooooo! Please tell me grid does have his own attorney and is getting his ducks in a row! 
I wish I could argue with cbnero, but I guess facts are facts.

I think I'm hoping it could work out for grid and in denial a little myself.
What she said about committed to the process but not the result--- that does reek of "I'm doing my duty to try to work this out, but don't really give a **** if we stay married or not".
I don't really understand the mediation thing; it's different in my state. My ex and I worked out a deal and I hired a lawyer and we filed uncontested. The property and custody agreement we worked out and it was done and signed for when we filed for the divorce.
Grid has two choices: take care of himself now while she has a conscience, or get a total screwing if they divorce later rather than sooner, which is probably a 99% chance. I wonder if grid knows that 80% of divorces these days are filed initially by women?
His chances are slim. Prepare for the worst and hope for the best, as someone said before.


----------



## Pluto2

@Evinrude58, there are several states that mandate mediation after divorce is filed as an inexpensive alternative to hashing out property/support issues in court. In those states the parties go through mediation with an attorney and only have a court action if no agreement can be reached. Grid, is your state one of those? And if you don't know, get off you butt and retain an attorney.


----------



## azteca1986

cbnero said:


> I really hope the path he chose works out otherwise this thread will be referred to as the perfect example of what not to do and advice to follow for every BS that comes to TAM going forward.
> 
> Mind reading the WS? Check
> Zero boundaries by BS? Check
> Ignoring obvious bargaining in grief stage? Check
> Ignoring the filed divorce? Check
> BS reluctant/refusing to get own attorney? Check
> Ignoring experienced TAM advice? Check
> WS still working with OM? Check
> WS still having hidden communication with OM? Check
> Counseling (waste of time) while OM still in the picture? Check
> Blame shifting, projection, gaslighting, cake eating? Check


Somebody had to say it. Well done.

The only consequence WW has had to face is Grid improving his "overbearing" communication style.


----------



## LongWalk

Grid's WW has most definitely faced consequences. She has harmed her reputation with family. Her friends know she is in a life changing drama.

She risks losing Grid.

We don't know her inner thoughts. All we can do is infer based on Grid's reporting.


----------



## Forest

gridcom said:


> She doesnt want R. She wants D. She is open to R, because of the kids. She's more open to R if I keep my mouth shut, be kind, not say a word about the affair, not say a word about her OM, not say a word about leaving her job, not say a word under my breath, not say a word when she does or says something that rocks me at my core (like the song lyric crap).
> 
> When I comply, then she is nice and friendly and acts like nothing ever happened.
> 
> ...She sleeps like a baby.,


:surprise: You tolerate this? 
To me, this creates an image of you are going out to buy a new car: You pull away from the dealership, and a long line of carjackers are standing by the street, each holding a sign that says "Give me the keys".

You get out, hand over the keys to the first carjacker in line, then head right back into the dealership.


----------



## Anon Pink

gridcom said:


> I think the whole phrase was "committed to the process, but not committed to a result." I think that's fair, as long as "committed to the process" is true. I dont know for sure that it is.
> 
> Lets Go Mets


That's how I felt going in to Retrouvaille. I was willing to work this program and be completely honest through out. I would not give encouragement just because I felt bad for hurting my H by wanting a divorce. "Not committed to a result" means she doesn't intend to go into this to appease you, or for the sake of appearances. That's exactly how I felt. I'm willing to try this with an open attitude, but I'm not promising any result other than what comes honestly and naturally to me.

During the weekend he owned some things about himself. This shocked me because I wasn't even aware of one. He admitted that he purposely remained calm and detached to manipulate me into flying off the handle and over reacting, thus making me look foolish and him look wise. It caused me to fully trust that this time really was for real. That this time he really was intent on learning to be the kind of husband I needed him to be.

That trust opened the door to affection which opened the door to deeper feelings, which opened the door to love again.


----------



## turnera

technovelist said:


> Faking sex? How do you do that?


Four words: When Harry Met Sally


----------



## tech-novelist

turnera said:


> Four words: When Harry Met Sally


That was faking orgasm, but I don't think anyone there thought she was actually having sex with Harry...


----------



## Pluto2

Anon Pink said:


> "Not committed to a result" means she doesn't intend to go into this to appease you, or for the sake of appearances.


I understand that was how you felt and I'm glad things worked out for you.

But honestly when I read Grid say she was committed to the process but not to a result, I absolutely took it as a form of appeasement, that she was still not actually interested in R, but was willing to go through the motions. When I convinced my ex to go to MC, he was agreeable to going through the process, but unwilling to do the hard work that went with it-appeasement.

We could all go round and round on this, when the truth is none of us know what Mrs. G is thinking. 

I hope my reading of Mrs. Grid's comment is not correct, but I wanted him to be forewarned.


----------



## TeddieG

gridcom said:


> Also, to the surprise of nobody I'm sure, I've been not sleeping again after a long stretch of regular sleep. Before this whole "affair" happened, I was working so much that I was basically going to bed at 2:30 in the morning and waking up at 7:30-8:00. So, for a long time I was able to role on 5-5.5 hours of sleep. The last 4 nights I have been going to bed at around 2:30 and waking up at 4, then staying up until 6-6:30, then going to bed until about 8am. So, I am on three hours a night now for 4 straight nights. I don't take any medication or pills of any sort. I never have. The Married Man's Sex Life Primer book talks about suppliments men take as they get older by choice and not by choice, and I'm proud to say I've swallowed very few pills of any sort in my life. I guess what I am saying is I don't want to take sleep aids.
> 
> That said, it's hard to stay focused and even when you aren't sleeping. It's the fast way to getting knocked off course. I feel like when I was sleeping more, my head was on straight.
> 
> And besides that, I'm just pissed.





gridcom said:


> I'll tell you. I don't want to divorce my wife and I don't want to blow up my family unit because I don't want to see my kids get hurt. Today marks 16 weeks since D-Day. And I'll say this, my love for my wife is losing steam. It's appalling to me that she would put herself and her own interest ahead of her childrens. It makes me think less of her as a person that she would hold their hands and jump into a great unknown without so much as a real effort to find her way back to the marriage. No effort. I look at my daughters and I think " Man, I would almost do anything not to see them less. I would sacrifice a great deal in order to keep their smiles intact." 10 year old 5th grader and a 5 year old in Kindergarten. Smiles that are 10 miles wide. How could anyone mess with that? I couldn't imagine any scenario where I would want to do something at their expense. I've said it here before. We brought those kids into the world with a responsibility to give them all we have, to give them our very best. NOTHING less. We raise them, we teach them, and we sacrifice for them. We don't haphazardly stumble through life being selfish a$$holes and let them live with the consequences.
> 
> I was talking to a not so close friend last night and he knows my situation. He is 35 and his girlfriend is 30 years old. And he was telling me that his girlfriend went through her parents infidelity when she was 14 and "she's dealt with it forever", "she talks about it all the time", and "she has rough patches" and then he went on to say that her little brothers "had it a lot rougher" I'm quoting because it was via text. Point being, I don't want that for my kids. I don't much care about anything else, that comes first to me.
> 
> And that's in no way to say that I'd prefer them to witness a loveless marriage, I wouldn't. But, again, I would absolutely be gutted if my girls didn't get the best efforts (key word being EFFORT) of me and my wife before the moving truck comes and takes my sh*t away. Anything less than that is complete bullsh*t and it's not fair to two wonderful little ladies.
> 
> I have a positive attitude. My attitude is I am very aware of my faults and am dealing with them accordingly. This morning I went into the shower and my younger daughters toys were all over the shower floor, and for an instant I was aggrivated I had to clear them before I could shower. And then, I immediately caught myself and said there's nothing more awesome in the world than watching these two girls grow up day in and day out with smiles a mile wide.
> 
> 
> Reconciliation with a Hardened Wife
> https://coachjackito.com/blog/i-changed-wife-come-back/
> 
> These two links I read over and over. They are bookmarked. I can do better with them. I try. I fall. I go a few days and then something happens where I look at my wife and I think "Who are you?" "How could you?" Never mind "How could you do this to ME?" rather "How could you do this to your CHILDREN?" And AGAIN it's not "suck it up and be unhappy" it's "be able to tell your kids one day that you gave it your very best, but in the end they had to suffer anyway" as opposed to "it was a time in my life that I was selfish and I owe you both endless apologies for the damage I've done"
> 
> And I don't want to hear about how they'll be fine. This isn't The Brady Bunch over here where his three boys and her three girls come out of divorces and live in these gigantic houses. These kids will be broke because their parents will be broke. They will suffer worse trauma than I have suffered in the last 16 weeks and I know it in my bones. They'll see less of me and they'll see less of my suddenly working a full time job wife. And they'll be like "What in the motherfvck is this bvllsh*t?"
> 
> And I come here to learn that essentially there are two approaches. One is counter intuitive and quite frankly scares me and the other one, which seems more natural is frustrating as fvck. I understand there isn't much I can do here but watch, and pray.


Grid, I'm back after a short hiatus (commonly known as a temporary ban), and these posts are some in a series from you. You're angry, and you point out that the spinning coin is slowing and about to fall on one side or the other, and the Retrouvaille will be the turning point. This is in response to someone who tells you that what you're doing is character building while others tell you the post is unhealthy and codependent (I sometimes think that term os over used, and there's a book about THAT too). But the point is, you're getting mixed messages. So no wonder your head is spinning like the coin, only picking up speed, not slowing down. And one describes your difficulty sleeping and ends with "I am pissed." There is a sense in which you're in limbo, but I can hear your frustration with your sense of powerlessness. 

I've been thinking about this all week. Leaving aside the labels, here is something I'd like to suggest that I see as a possibility. Your wife set in motion the falling of these dominoes. Your kids are one of your top priorities, and there is a chance that their home life and their financial security is at risk. You have your own emotions to contend with, your sorrow at what your wife has done, your sense of responsibility to work on issues in your marriage should your marriage go forward or end. You're juggling a host of issues; it is like an elephant rolled over on you and you're trying to chew it off one toenail at a time.

I am proposing that the reason you may feel yourself spinning is that the thing that set ALL this in motion was your wife's choices, which you discovered, and which put you in a position where you are now required to prepare a response of some sort, after a series of responses, and make plans and prepare for a future which so far is uncharted. But you have been in touch with your emotions and are starting to get in touch with your anger (and I think that is a good stage), and I believe that part of your anger, and even to a degree part of your paralysis, may stem from the financial realities. But I believe the primary thing, the thing I'm proposing you consider, is that deep down inside, in a way that you may not be in touch with, I think it is possible to believe that if you put your relationship back together with your wife, you can undo the following dominoes and stand them back up again. Is it possible that in your head, you have a movie that starts with things falling apart when you discovered your wife's infidelity, and you have the same movie played backwards, where you rewind and the dominoes stand up again when you restore your relationship with your wife? Is that possibly so much seems to hang on reconciliation? 

I would argue that this would be a normal conclusion for a person to come to; if I can restore my marriage, I can maintain the status quo, I can avoid my kids getting hurt, I can focus on digging out of debt, I can right all the potential unpleasant things to come if I can just reconcile with my wife. And is it possible that you have been internalizing the voices here, those who may suggest that YOU can reconcile this marriage, that YOU can change to the point to restore your relationship, and bring your wife out of her affair fog, that it is YOUR responsibility? That YOU can do it is something a lot of people are suggesting lies outside your control. 

That's an awful lot of responsibility, but it might explain why some posters here have been concerned about your ability to focus on preparing for divorce. To prepare for divorce is not a sign of capitulation or resignation or defeat. 

I can honestly tell you that I had many reasons to want to reconcile my marriage, or at least forestall the affair, given my h's mental health issues, which are accelerating fast, and he is in the hands of a controlling and manipulative person, and neither live in reality (I mean, who files for a marriage license ten days after filing for divorce? Two crazy people, especially when it is illegal to marry in this state within six months after a divorce is final, much less started). But there was an element of fear about my standard of living and all that I had achieved, and there was also fear of what would happen to him in his diminished mental state in the hands of a 43-year-old 12-year-old alcoholic adolescent, both of whom were violent. I'm saying that we all have our reasons to have fear, but we also all have our altruistic reasons for why we would like to work things out. 

With all these things spinning in our heads, it is SO tempting and SO easy to decide that the solution is simply to win our spouses back and restore the relationship. in some ways, it seems like a form of damage control. And in many ways it can be tempting to feel that all the stuff can be undone.

But you yourself said, in a really insightful post, that infidelity changes everybody. It really does. I see you fighting the good fight, but I also see the potential, and I could be totally wrong, to see the solution as the reconciliation/restoration of the relationship with your wife as crown at the finish line, and that after the race is over, there will be a clean up the emotional and practical debris along the sides of the track of the race. 

Just a thought. Hang in there. Retrouvaille is approaching!


----------



## Anon Pink

Pluto2 said:


> I understand that was how you felt and I'm glad things worked out for you.
> 
> But honestly when I read Grid say she was committed to the process but not to a result, I absolutely took it as a form of appeasement, that she was still *not actually interested in R,* but was willing to go through the motions. When I convinced my ex to go to MC, he was agreeable to going through the process, but unwilling to do the hard work that went with it-appeasement.
> 
> We could all go round and round on this, when the truth is none of us know what Mrs. G is thinking.
> 
> I hope my reading of Mrs. Grid's comment is not correct, but I wanted him to be forewarned.


Bolded part: Neither was I. I wasn't interested in reconciling because I didn't believe Retrouvaille would do anything at all to alter the way my husband approached his role as husband/partner/co-parent. 

Retrouvaille is not marriage counseling. You can't fake it. You either participate or you don't. Those who don't participate with their spouse, who is participating, are figuratively revealing themselves. You can't fake participation in this program.

No we will not know her truth unless she decides to reveal it. But you guys can only see through one lens, the lens of a betrayed spouse. I'm not invalidating that lens when I point out that there are other lenses to look through and those other lenses reveal other facets of grid's marriage and reconciliation dynamic. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying there are other meanings to consider.


----------



## manfromlamancha

LongWalk said:


> Grid's WW has most definitely faced consequences. She has harmed her reputation with family. Her friends know she is in a life changing drama.
> *
> She risks losing Grid.*
> 
> We don't know her inner thoughts. All we can do is infer based on Grid's reporting.


I don't thing that she sees losing Grid as a risk per se - maybe his income. The reason she is seeking another job is quite simply that she knows she needs to be earning more to be able to set out on her own - with or without the POSOM in the picture.

She has checked out - has started cheating (although she may not see it as cheating) and is on her way.

I still don't understand the having sex with Grid but its probably just me - I am sure more experienced, worldly and understanding people understand it. Me, I am confused as to why she would sleep with Grid while she is pining for POSOM and yearning to be out of the marriage.

I also think that she intends to "recover her reputation" by explaining how horrible her marriage to Grid was and why she had no choice and that finally she met someone "who showed her love."

So other than financial and reduced access to the kids, no real consequences. Its been relatively easy for her - just needs to nail that financial thing (which may raise its ugly head later in the proceedings and which we are urging Grid to prepare for legally).


----------



## Pluto2

Anon Pink said:


> I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying there are other meanings to consider.


Which is what I offered.

EDIT: I don't need anyone else to "validate" my thought process. My mind is clear and my heart is thriving. I do, indeed speak from the experience of a BS who actually dealt with infidelity, and I ask you to please stop assuming all BS have one brain. Experience has revealed that assumption is incorrect.


----------



## turnera

technovelist said:


> That was faking orgasm, but I don't think anyone there thought she was actually having sex with Harry...


Women have been 'actually' having sex with men for thousands of years when they didn't want to and faking it to make the man happy. It's only been in the last few centuries that women even had a say in it, for the most part. Hell, girls are still being married away _today _at the ripe old age of 9.


----------



## tech-novelist

turnera said:


> Women have been 'actually' having sex with men for thousands of years when they didn't want to and faking it to make the man happy. It's only been in the last few centuries that women even had a say in it, for the most part. Hell, girls are still being married away _today _at the ripe old age of 9.


I suspect men in the days that you are talking about mostly didn't care why the women were doing it, and that the women probably didn't bother faking orgasm.

However, I guess my original point, which was a joke about the notion of "faking sex", got lost in the shuffle.


----------



## bfree

technovelist said:


> I suspect men in the days that you are talking about mostly didn't care why the women were doing it, and that the women probably didn't bother faking orgasm.
> 
> However, I guess my original point, which was a joke about the notion of "faking sex", got lost in the shuffle.


I also suspect that is why the female gender evolved to separate the physical responses of sexual stimulation from the emotional component of love. It is well known that women can orgasm while being raped. Many times the woman feels great shame and confusion after such an embarrassing response to a deplorably traumatic event. I've read and believe that this is a biological defense mechanism evolved over many generations. Women were often taken captive when tribes would battle and make war. These women became consorts to their former enemies. The ones that could convince their new captors that they were now going to be "good little slaves" survived. The ones that gave any hint of resisting were put to death. Hence the developed ability to "fake sex." Many posters here on TAM ask newly betrayed husbands about their recent sex lives. I put less stock in that than others because women have had to fake sexual attraction so much in the past that I really don't think it shows how they truly feel. All it really indicates is that they feel they have little choice for one reason or another.


----------



## TeddieG

Yes, and St. Augustine said that if women "enjoyed" being raped (i.e., having an orgasm), they were committing a sin. Smh.


----------



## Pluto2

welcome back @TeddieG


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## turnera

TeddieG said:


> Yes, and St. Augustine said that if women "enjoyed" being raped (i.e., having an orgasm), they were committing a sin. Smh.


And if you follow Akin, if it's a 'legitimate' rape, you probably won't get pregnant. smh

Sorry, T/J over.


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## TeddieG

Thanks, @Pluto2. Glad to be back! This is not a thread jack, right?!!??? Tell me this is not a thread jack!! LOL! 

Grid, I don't know if I saw it or if I'm failing to remember, when is the Retrouvaille weekend? Is it a weekend first, and then follow-ups, right?


----------



## azteca1986

LongWalk said:


> Grid's WW has most definitely faced consequences. She has harmed her reputation with family. Her friends know she is in a life changing drama.
> 
> She risks losing Grid.
> 
> We don't know her inner thoughts. All we can do is infer based on Grid's reporting.


Well, you best reacquaint yourself with this:


gridcom said:


> If she had divorce papers right now, she'd sign them. *She says she's thought it all the way through and every consequence be damned. * And even with all of that, I am going to sit here and ride this out and continue to reverse the curse and call her a saint.


You're welcome.


----------



## gridcom

Retrouvaille is in two weeks. We went to MC yesterday after a two week break (MC had other things going on). All the focus was on me. What can I do to restore my wife's affection for me? I had to wonder throughout when it got lost, even on the MC, that my wife had an affair and is still deeply emotionally attached to her AP. I read earlier today, somebody mentioned "mind reading" And that's interesting, in that essentially I am mind reading. I feel like I just get a "vibe" from my wife that she is physically lonely, and even when she is engaging me in a friendly way, her mind is more or less always on her AP. I can't explain it, but I know it to be true in my gut, and I'm trusting my gut.

The MC was the one who said the term "committed to the process, but not the result" That didnt come from my wife. My wife says she's committed to the process. I don't believe that to be true. I don't know if she knows that she isnt committed to the process or not, if you know what I mean. I think maybe she THINKS she's committed, but she's not. And again, that's just my gut. I look at my wife, in her eyes, and I just see her mind thinking about how much she misses the OM. Again, no proof over here, but if you asked me, she's only committed to getting back with OM.

So, towards the end of MC after nearly 40 minutes on me, I had to remind everybody that my wife cheated, was still playing the song game with AP (which she still denies), and despite any forward momentum on my end (which there is), this is still clearly a three way marriage right now. I told my wife way back, like in August, tell me all of these things when your AP's hook isnt in your heart and then I'll believe you are coming from an honest place

Now, I've learned that it doesn't much matter how much honesty or realness I can evoke from her. I can only deal with my end of things. And to my credit, ever since we here on TAM exchanged that communication dialogue thing earlier this week, I've (*just about) cut off all talk of any of this stuff.

The MC said both her (the MC) and I have to take my wife at face value; that if she says she's committed to the process, then we have to trust she is being honest. But, I don't think my wife is committed to the process nor is she being honest with herself. And I hope that's the extent of it. I'd rather her be an emotional mess than be a calculated lying human being, but who really knows.

My plan this week once again is to keep my mouth shut, but I'm not walking into MC again and having all the focus be on what I can do. I AM DOING everything I can do. It's time to shine the spot light elsewhere.

One question for you, and I know there are two camps here, but I've completely stopped being affectionate with my wife. She basically told me she didnt want me to be affectionate, so I've stopped. Is this a good idea? When we arent talking about this crap, we are getting along. It isnt like we arent together all this weekend. It isnt like I am brooding and sullen. I'm just being myself, but I have urges to show affection and I stop myself.

Good idea?


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## farsidejunky

Her not wanting your affection is a sign that your gut is right.

Grid, listen. Listen carefully.

A whole world of hurt is about to be levied upon you if you are not prepared. Stop listening to your wife, and start watching her.

She cheated. She used that as a weapon to hurt you. She secured an attorney. She filed. She broke no contact. She refuses your affection.

What do her actions tell you?


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## TeddieG

"I'd rather her be an emotional mess than be a calculated lying human being, but who really knows."

Boy, does THAT ring a bell. My h has been both. It is hard to tell if it is one or the other or some combination of both in a chaotic random cycle.

So given that, and given that your gut tells you that she is still mooning over the AP/POSOM, my vote would be, stop with the affection. The sex just keeps YOU attached and engaged; it doesn't seem to be moving your wife along and over the affair, nor would I necessarily expect it to. 

Basically what you're saying is that when you are actively engaged in 180 behaviors, you guys get along. And you already described her view of an acceptable "reconciliation," which is for you to keep your mouth shut and look the other way and pay the bills. I wouldn't reward that with affection, I don't think. That's not a marriage, that's a Cold War detente, in my opinion. 

As I meant to say in my earlier post with two of your posts in it, IF you see reconciliation as a way to set the dominoes back up, that could explain your urgency in discussing the status of the relationship with her and trying to get some sort of commitment from her. You seem to have arrived at a place where you sense that is NOT forthcoming. It is possible you've smothered her. 

So let the detente stand and see if Retrouvaille brings a thaw, one way or the other; see it as taking a break. That would be my recommendation. I'm tempted to say it's never too late to go completely 180 and begin to be attractive again, but I'm not sure that's true. I think things are early enough for you that it could be true, but given where she seems to be now, the 180 seems crucial in terms of your ability to disengage and start getting stronger and putting you back together. In my case, my h has been building a relationship with the OW for 7 years and while I did the 180 he wasn't here to see it or feel it, other than a few weeks out of the year and a month or two in the summertime. I'm setting good hard boundaries now that he's filed for divorce, but they're having no impact, other than he's mad that Plan B has been taken off the table as I resign from the role of wife before he fires me. I'm wondering if you stop the overtures of affection and take her at her word, maybe it is possible she'll notice the changes and see your growth, see your detachment, and realize that you're taking her at her word and essentially preparing to move on. I'm only curious about that because while many of my questions have been answered, one of the questions I still have pending is whether it is ever too late to do the 180 and start imposing boundaries. While that's my issue, I am still struck by how early in the game this is for you and the potential to just cut loose any efforts to win her back and see what her response would be. I DO suspect she could use some space, and I suspect you could too, and it might be good to take a break before Retrouvaille.


----------



## the guy

I think affection and more importantly sex is the glue.

You guys need to tear down the walls but it looks like she is just adding more bricks to the wall that's already there.


----------



## the guy

From were I'm sitting if one is committed to the process then a little hand holding and a little hug here and there is all part of the process.

I think this whole no affection business is a process......but it's a process that is sending both of you in the wrong direction.

That's my $0.02


----------



## jld

How did she basically tell you she did not want your affection? Is it possible you are interpreting her?

Sometimes when I am upset with my husband, he will put his arm around me or pull me to him. In the moment I may pull away, but there is a part of me that recognizes that as caring on his part. 

He usually stays near me anyway, waiting to listen. Invariably I will soften and start sharing my hurt. As he listens patiently and sympathetically, I can't help but draw near to him. Anger managed this way often ends with heartfelt physical communion.

I think the only way to true reconciliation is to reach her heart, grid. I can only speak for myself, but all the punishment/accountability methods you are hearing would only turn me away. Even if I did not go to the OM, I would just go away. I would not want to be with a man who did not treat my feelings, however others may judge them, with love, tenderness, and respect.

_Sincerely, calmly_ . . .

"I know you may be thinking about OM right now. I understand that he met needs in you that I did not for a very long time. I understand that it is painful to give him up, and that it will take time for him to leave your heart completely. I appreciate your willingness to break that bond. I am sorry that you are hurting. Please let me know if or how I can help."


----------



## TeddieG

jld, suppose Mrs. Grid took Grid up on the offer to help her with breaking the bond with OM? How would you propose that Grid actually do that? My h tried to break the bond with OW, and talked to me about it, and talked about all the things she did that drove him away. It just made me his buddy and friend, and didn't make him see as a wife. How can Grid talk to his wife about her OM without inviting her to see him as a buddy? If he's supposed to be as sympathetic as you describe, and willing to be understanding about her connection with the OM, how does that benefit him and reconciliation and not just turn him into her confidante about her problems and issues with OM, which she would clearly like to resolve and work out, as opposed to working out and resolving issues with Grid?


----------



## ButtPunch

farsidejunky said:


> Her not wanting your affection is a sign that your gut is right.
> 
> Grid, listen. Listen carefully.
> 
> A whole world of hurt is about to be levied upon you if you are not prepared. Stop listening to your wife, and start watching her.
> 
> She cheated. She used that as a weapon to hurt you. She secured an attorney. She filed. She broke no contact. She refuses your affection.
> 
> What do her actions tell you?


She has shown you who she is. You need to believe her.


----------



## jld

Grid, it is my understanding that we are only supposed to be addressing you, not each other.


----------



## pidge70

jld said:


> Grid, it is my understanding that we are only supposed to be addressing you, not each other.


If you feel someone is violating rules, report them. As it is, people are allowed to question one another.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

EleGirl said:


> *I agree that this is getting out of hand. From here on out only post to the OP. Anything else is considered a thread jack and will lead to a ban.*


----------



## azteca1986

gridcom said:


> Now, I've learned that it doesn't much matter how much honesty or realness I can evoke from her. *I can only deal with my end of things.* And to my credit, ever since we here on TAM exchanged that communication dialogue thing earlier this week, I've (*just about) cut off all talk of any of this stuff.
> 
> <snip>
> It isnt like I am brooding and sullen. I'm just being myself, but I have urges to show affection and I stop myself.
> 
> Good idea?


Yes. Check the 180 outlined in post #3 of your thread. It covers a lot of the dos and don'ts of someone who is dealing with infidelity. The bit in bold is what the 180 is for.



jld said:


> _Sincerely, calmly_ . . .
> 
> "I know you may be thinking about OM right now. I understand that he met needs in you that I did not for a very long time. I understand that it is painful to give him up, and that it will take time for him to leave your heart completely. I appreciate your willingness to break that bond. I am sorry that you are hurting. Please let me know if or how I can help."


Then get your WW to write "Welcome" on your back and lie on the floor in front of her.


----------



## TeddieG

jld, I was just asking you for more information. I thought your answer might help everyone understand your position and help Grid and contribute to the dialogue; I certainly wouldn't mind if someone asked me for further clarification on a post, or held me accountable for the logic or consequences of anything I might propose. I have noticed that Long Walk has asked you at times how you would implement practically some of your philosophical suggestions and sometimes you've replied. But if my query to you makes you uncomfortable, I apologize and will refrain from doing so in the future.


----------



## TeddieG

ButtPunch said:


> She has shown you who she is. You need to believe her.


I REALLY think this is right, especially given your gut feeling, Grid. Things COULD change, but I really feel, and perhaps long-term TAM'ers and veterans here might disagree with me, so I'm open to correction, it seems important to me to stress how early this is for you. Change in a cheating spouse takes time, and things won't be resolved quickly, I don't think. I started reading some of IE's posts, and she turned back towards her h but reading between the lines, it took a fair bit of time. I haven't been here long enough to find threads from former WS's who reconciled, so I don't now what the pattern is, but from the people I DO know who reconciled, the shortest amount of time for several couples, when the WS decided to commit to reconciliation, was two years. A couple of weeks of time out doesn't seem to me something that would hurt anything.


----------



## jld

Grid, if you would like me to address questions or statements from other posters, please let me know. Otherwise my understanding is that since last Sunday, when EleGirl issued the statement above, we are only supposed to be addressing you.


----------



## ButtPunch

TeddieG said:


> I REALLY think this is right, especially given your gut feeling, Grid. Things COULD change, but I really feel, and perhaps long-term TAM'ers and veterans here might disagree with me, so I'm open to correction, it seems important to me to stress how early this is for you. Change in a cheating spouse takes time, and things won't be resolved quickly, I don't think. I started reading some of IE's posts, and she turned back towards her h but reading between the lines, it took a fair bit of time. I haven't been here long enough to find threads from former WS's who reconciled, so I don't now what the pattern is, but from the people I DO know who reconciled, the shortest amount of time for one couple, when the WS decided to commit to reconciliation, was two years. A couple of weeks of time out doesn't seem to me something that would hurt anything.


It's generally the BS who acts swiftly and with a purpose who generally gets a shot at a real reconciliation. The nice her back guys usually stay in limbo until they catch their ww still cheating or are hit with divorce papers. Nothing is 100% however.


----------



## LongWalk

The thread jack issue is important when people start posting about the wrong baseball team.

Grid,

Your wife's request to end intimacy and affection tells you a great deal.
The process to which she has committed herself is called cake eating. She is delaying a decision about the future and/or she has already taken a decision and is not sharing it with you.

One interesting turn in question of sexual fidelity. Is it possible that your wife has informed OM that she has had sex with you. Furthermore, has she told him that is was under pressure and that it repulsed her. Did OM wear a long face but say that it didn't matter to him because he loved her no matter what? Did your wife ask you to stop being affectionate because it bothered her conscience?

Does she feel that because OM has forgiven her for having sex with you, that he is more generous and understanding than you are? After all, she had sex with OM and she is still considering reconciliation with you and you are not grateful.

Who knows what the process in her mind is?


----------



## TeddieG

ButtPunch said:


> It's generally the BS who acts swiftly and with a purpose who generally gets a shot at a real reconciliation. The nice her back guys usually stay in limbo until they catch their ww still cheating or are hit with divorce papers. Nothing is 100% however.


Okay, that's helpful. Most of the people I know who reconciled at two years were divorced. One couple in particular is now engaged but going to marriage counseling, and the WS came back two years after D-day and an almost immediate divorce. They have two kids, and they've done some hard work in therapy. But the BS WAS cool and collected and did the 180 on her ex-h when they had interaction and contact because of the kids. Her mother is not happy they to back together because the h was the cheater, so there are problems in the family, but then again, most of my experience is in midlife crisis communities, where the advice is to avoid divorce. 

But Grid, this raises an issue. Listening to you now, realizing you're not likely to get honesty from her and you sense a lack of real commitment, are you rethinking your goal here maybe? I have interpreted your goal as reconciliation, but you've clearly demonstrated you are prepared for any outcome, but I have sensed your preference was reconciliation, and divorce would feel like a huge blow for you. Long Walk's post is good.


----------



## gridcom

jld said:


> Grid, if you would like me to address questions or statements from other posters, please let me know. Otherwise my understanding is that since last Sunday, when EleGirl issued the statement above, we are only supposed to be addressing you.


Yes, jld, please respond. To clarify, I read your example of how I should address my gut feelings on how my wife is dealing with OM, and it does just sound to me like I am coddling her, kissing her a$$, and letting her treat me as her buddy.

My approach right now is to not address her with talk of anything related to divorce, the OM, the affair, etc but at the same time I do feel that if I go too long without showing natural affection, that it is going to make reconciliation harder in the long run, as I feel like I'll slip into the buddy zone

I don't know the exact context, but at some point last week she told me that right now any affection from me wasn't helping.

Another point I should mention about MC yesterday. The MC asked us both what our number one future goal was in life. It wasn't an easy question to answer, and we both struggled. While I waited for her to answer, I decided that my number one goal in life from this point was to be financially secure, as everything else I'd either already accomplished or frankly is secondary to that.

Then she told the MC her number one goal in life was financial security

This kind of pi$$ed me off, since getting divorced is exactly the opposite of accomplishing that goal, but whatever I guess..


----------



## ThreeStrikes

That's a helluva MC you found.


----------



## gridcom

ThreeStrikes said:


> That's a helluva MC you found.


Not sure what you mean.


----------



## azteca1986

gridcom said:


> My approach right now is to not address her with talk of anything related to divorce, the OM, the affair, etc but at the same time I do feel that if I go too long without showing natural affection, that it is going to make reconciliation harder in the long run, as *I feel like I'll slip into the buddy zone.*


Your wife has already friend-zoned you. You do see that don't you, Grid?


----------



## Evinrude58

I agree. The marriage counselor is just taking your money.
Grid, her telling you she didn't want affection from you is the worst news yet. Worse than the cheating. 
I thought you guys might be making progress. I was wrong. She has neither said she was committed to reconciliation, nor is she forgetting the OM.

The obvious thing here is to get an attorney(which you're long overdue on), and ask her to leave. You walking around pulling the "180" is ridiculous. She needs to go, and you need to move on as fast as possible. 
The advice you've been given from one poster is just as you describe, weak and pathetic. There is no way to "reach her heart" when she kicks you out of it and bolts the door. That's what she has done, and is saying so. I think you need to give up all hope of a life with her and do a real 180 and say to hel! with reconciliation. This woman is gone. You can't do a da** thing about it. I wish it weren't so, but it is. 

She is a cold, unrepentant cheater. She is not the person today that you fell in love with, and never will be. If she really wanted to stay married, she'd be begging her betrayed husband to stay. You're playing with fire. Guess what happens when you play with fire?


----------



## lifeistooshort

Well then, if your number one goal in life is financial security, not a close relationship with your wife, then accept that even if you strong arm her back to support said financial security then what you'll get is a wife that doesn't love you, thinks you're an immature/ overbearing/controlling ahole, and will likely be vulnerable to someone she can connect with. 

And remember that by throwing a tantrum and threatening divorce during arguments you've undermined her security to the point that she doesn't trust you. Threats of divorce during arguments are a means to manipulate and control. Especially when the one doing it has most of the power.

Think about what your ideal marriage looks like and ask yourself if you can have that with her. Your past would suggest you want financial security, a faithful wife, and a wife who has sex with you but not a close personal relationship. If this is what you want you might get it but your wife will always be vulnerable to someone she can connect with. If you want a close personal relationship I don't think you're going to get it.

I think your wife does want one though which is why she's conflicted. She doesn't have one with you but she also has limited options. 

So, what does your ideal marriage with your wife look like?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## azteca1986

gridcom said:


> Then she told the MC her number one goal in life was financial security
> 
> This kind of pi$$ed me off, since getting divorced is exactly the opposite of accomplishing that goal, but whatever I guess..


She is thinking in terms of herself. Without you. You are still thinking as a family man. This is why you got pi$$ed off. Because you know this.


----------



## gridcom

lifeistooshort said:


> Well then, if your number one goal in life is financial security, not a close relationship with your wife, then accept that even if you strong arm her back to support said financial security then what you'll get is a wife that doesn't love you, thinks you're an immature/ overbearing/controlling ahole, and will likely be vulnerable to someone she can connect with.
> 
> And remember that by throwing a tantrum and threatening divorce during arguments you've undermined her security to the point that she doesn't trust you. Threats of divorce during arguments are a means to manipulate and control. Especially when the one doing it has most of the power.
> 
> Think about what your ideal marriage looks like and ask yourself if you can have that with her. Your past would suggest you want financial security, a faithful wife, and a wife who has sex with you but not a close personal relationship. If this is what you want you might get it but your wife will always be vulnerable to someone she can connect with. If you want a close personal relationship I don't think you're going to get it.
> 
> I think your wife does want one though which is why she's conflicted. She doesn't have one with you but she also has limited options.
> 
> So, what does your ideal marriage with your wife look like?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think the point was missed here. The question specifically was on a card. It said, if I remember correctly, "What is one goal in life your partner has yet to accomplish and still wants to accomplish"

I don't think it was meant to be answered as "a close personal relationship with my partner", but I guess in hindsight that could be an answer.

I think, for me, that is just ASSUMED since we are being asked the question while in marriage counseling. 

I think the idea that the affair is over and she is still mourning the affair has the highest odds of being the correct answer. But, I dont KNOW this to be fact.


----------



## LongWalk

Grid,

I am sleeping in the guest room of an old buddy/colleague who got divorced after cheating on his wife. We haven't met for quite some time. The last occassion we were in the same city he had come over with OW. We were at a museum and did not really talk about his ex, whom I had liked.

Actually, I don't like his now new wife.

This evening before she came home we drank a beer in his new house. He told me that he and OW (his new wife) broke up at one point when he was suffering from depression. He then send out a feeler to his ex through his adult sons to see if there could be "negotiations" for reconciliation. He got back zero positive response. Later he pressed for some answer. Why wouldn't she even meet him to talk.

"She said she wanted me to crawl on my knees. Literally."

He did not realize that was a requirement that BS often set down.

My friend told me "a force of nature drove" him and OW back together.

I cannot say to my friend that it is BS. He fvcked up and his two sons are to some degree estranged from him because they don't dig OW. Why would they?

My friend's first wife was a nicer better person that his needy second wife. That's my gut reaction.

I am bummed for him. 

Your wife may come back to you a couple of years from now with a feeler. People don't always make the right decisions. BP is right that your best chance of reconciliation would probably have been to react calmly but resolutely in rejecting her as a cheater. By accepting her as a cheater and now a FWB minus the benefits, you are probably erasing her final bit of respect for you.

My advice now is to seriously reconsider Retrouvaille.


----------



## gridcom

Evinrude58 said:


> I agree. The marriage counselor is just taking your money.
> Grid, her telling you she didn't want affection from you is the worst news yet. Worse than the cheating.
> I thought you guys might be making progress. I was wrong. She has neither said she was committed to reconciliation, nor is she forgetting the OM.
> 
> The obvious thing here is to get an attorney(which you're long overdue on), and ask her to leave. You walking around pulling the "180" is ridiculous. She needs to go, and you need to move on as fast as possible.
> The advice you've been given from one poster is just as you describe, weak and pathetic. There is no way to "reach her heart" when she kicks you out of it and bolts the door. That's what she has done, and is saying so. I think you need to give up all hope of a life with her and do a real 180 and say to hel! with reconciliation. This woman is gone. You can't do a da** thing about it. I wish it weren't so, but it is.
> 
> She is a cold, unrepentant cheater. She is not the person today that you fell in love with, and never will be. If she really wanted to stay married, she'd be begging her betrayed husband to stay. You're playing with fire. Guess what happens when you play with fire?


What did I miss? How is the MC now just taking my money? What did she do or not do that would suggest that?


----------



## lifeistooshort

azteca1986 said:


> She is thinking in terms of herself. Without you. You are still thinking as a family man. This is why you got pi$$ed off. Because you know this.


He said the same thing about financial security. How is that different?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lifeistooshort

gridcom said:


> I think the point was missed here. The question specifically was on a card. It said, if I remember correctly, "What is one goal in life your partner has yet to accomplish and still wants to accomplish"
> 
> I don't think it was meant to be answered as "a close personal relationship with my partner", but I guess in hindsight that could be an answer.
> 
> I think, for me, that is just ASSUMED since we are being asked the question while in marriage counseling.
> 
> I think the idea that the affair is over and she is still mourning the affair has the highest odds of being the correct answer. But, I dont KNOW this to be fact.


Fair enough, that could be. But the question still holds: what does your ideal marriage look like? You'd think this would be obvious but it's not because different people have different needs. What do you think your wife's ideal marriage looks like? Is it compatible with your ideal? 

I really need a close relationship with my spouse. My ex not only didn't need one but didn't want one. .... he wanted a wife to take care of the kids, cook and clean, put out on command and otherwise be seen and not heard. He is extreme of course but it is an example of how two people have different visions of marriage. Our ideas of marriage were never going to be compatible. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> What did I miss? How is the MC now just taking my money? What did she do or not do that would suggest that?


She clearly isn't experienced in infidelity. Her past is in the past attitude. MC's with experience know rugsweeping doesn't work. These counselors go off and take these communication courses and that's all they know to teach. 

A little His Needs Her Needs, 5 love languages, and a little active communication and it's off to wedded bliss. You get a MC like this from a MC puppy mill you better run.


----------



## gridcom

lifeistooshort said:


> Fair enough, that could be. But the question still holds: what does your ideal marriage look like? You'd think this would be obvious but it's not because different people have different needs. What do you think your wife's ideal marriage looks like? Is it compatible with your ideal?
> 
> I really need a close relationship with my spouse. My ex not only didn't need one but didn't want one. .... he wanted a wife to take care of the kids, cook and clean, put out on command and otherwise be seen and not heard. He is extreme of course but it is an example of how two people have different visions of marriage. Our ideas of marriage were never going to be compatible.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, being honest, I think my wife needs and wants more of a close personal relationship than I do. But, thats not to say I don't want to be closer than we are and also not to say that I don't want to give her what she wants. I want to make her happy, obviously. I don't think there is anything wrong with saying I don't NEED that closeness as much as she apparently does. I never realized it, because we went so long as we were.

Now, I look at her and I see it in her eyes. I see loneliness and it sucks because I so badly want to give her what she wants, but she's not wanting it from me. Now that I notice it, and can detect it, it's too late (??) for me to be the one to give it (??)


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> Well, being honest, I think my wife needs and wants more of a close personal relationship than I do. But, thats not to say I don't want to be closer than we are and also not to say that I don't want to give her what she wants. I want to make her happy, obviously. I don't think there is anything wrong with saying I don't NEED that closeness as much as she apparently does. I never realized it, because we went so long as we were.
> 
> Now, I look at her and I see it in her eyes. I see loneliness and it sucks because I so badly want to give her what she wants, but she's not wanting it from me. Now that I notice it, and can detect it, it's too late (??) for me to be the one to give it (??)


Yes right now it is too late and the more you lower your worth by trying to convince her otherwise is just another nail in your marriage coffin.


----------



## gridcom

ButtPunch said:


> She clearly isn't experienced in infidelity. Her past is in the past attitude. MC's with experience no rugsweeping doesn't work. These counselors go off and take these communication courses and that's all they know to teach.
> 
> A little His Needs Her Needs, 5 love languages, and a little active communication and it's off to wedded bliss. You get a MC like this from a MC puppy mill you better run.


I'll admit that I've learned more here than in MC, but then again we've spent 3 hours with her and this thread is headed towards 200 pages


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> I'll admit that I've learned more here than in MC, but then again we've spent 3 hours with her and this thread is headed towards 200 pages


MC is a waste of money when you have a WW like yours.


----------



## lifeistooshort

gridcom said:


> Well, being honest, I think my wife needs and wants more of a close personal relationship than I do. But, thats not to say I don't want to be closer than we are and also not to say that I don't want to give her what she wants. I want to make her happy, obviously. I don't think there is anything wrong with saying I don't NEED that closeness as much as she apparently does. I never realized it, because we went so long as we were.
> 
> Now, I look at her and I see it in her eyes. I see loneliness and it sucks because I so badly want to give her what she wants, but she's not wanting it from me. Now that I notice it, and can detect it, it's too late (??) for me to be the one to give it (??)


Of course, there's NOTHING wrong with the needs you have. They're your needs and just as valid as hers, and I think it's awesome you can see that and admit it.

This might be a place to start in MC, maybe you can build a closer relationship where your wife feels close to you and trusts you. If there's any chance at a real R that'd it, and if you can get to that point I bet it'll be time to face her affair. And it also explains why she doesn't want affection, she's not close to you so why would she? 

And if she is close to you I think she'll deal with her actions.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

gridcom said:


> Yes, jld, please respond. To clarify, I read your example of how I should address my gut feelings on how my wife is dealing with OM, and it does just sound to me like I am coddling her, kissing her a$$, and letting her treat me as her buddy.
> 
> My approach right now is to not address her with talk of anything related to divorce, the OM, the affair, etc but at the same time I do feel that if I go too long without showing natural affection, that it is going to make reconciliation harder in the long run, as I feel like I'll slip into the buddy zone
> 
> I don't know the exact context, but at some point last week she told me that right now any affection from me wasn't helping.
> 
> Another point I should mention about MC yesterday. The MC asked us both what our number one future goal was in life. It wasn't an easy question to answer, and we both struggled. While I waited for her to answer, I decided that my number one goal in life from this point was to be financially secure, as everything else I'd either already accomplished or frankly is secondary to that.
> 
> Then she told the MC her number one goal in life was financial security
> 
> This kind of pi$$ed me off, since getting divorced is exactly the opposite of accomplishing that goal, but whatever I guess..


She accepted to marry you twelve or so years ago, grid. You are not just some orbiter of hers. She would not have married and had children with you, as well as a decent sex life all that time, if she did not have an emotional bond with you.

But over time that bond weakened. To feel empowered to change that, you need to see yourself as having weakened it. If you weakened it, you can strengthen it. 

If you look at this whole thing as her doing, you will just sit around waiting for her to fix it. _That_ is about as weak and passive and unattractive as you can get. Who wants to be married to a guy who has to be carried around and nursed along? 

To me, all that heavy lifting some people talk about looks like carrying around a big baby. The way I see it, grown men stand up and look at what they did to break things, and get to fixing them. And if they cannot fix them, mainly by starting to meet their wives' needs, then they release their wives, by divorcing them, to seek out men who _can_ meet their needs. No control techniques needed.

Do you remember a few days ago when I asked you why she stopped doing the things that article suggested, like being sweet and serving you? 

Grid, I think it is because she realizes those things need to come from her heart, not be a list of "shoulds" imposed on her by guilt or some kind of propriety. For it to be sustainable, she has to feel inspired. And guess who has to do the inspiring?

One more thing. By affection, do you mean initiating sex? 

She will be able to tell if you are wanting sex for selfish purposes. Sex has to be a giving to her, and an inspiration for her to give to you. If you have anything else in mind, it is not surprising that she would reject you.

Grid, there is not going to be a true reconciliation without re-earning her trust. You can make rules and enforce consequences, but people with options are not going to put up with that forever. Everyone wants to feel respected and understood.

Listen to that MC. Humble yourself and be understanding. Nurture her. Try to understand the needs the OM met and get meeting them yourself.

Grid, you are a nice person. You have done some things wrong, but you can try to improve. You can re-earn her trust by being understanding, considerate, and respectful. 

And if for some reason you are not able to re-earn her trust, despite your sincere improvement, and you two divorce, you will have established a better feeling in her about you than before the affair, and co-parenting will be easier.


----------



## ButtPunch

Your WW only sees your bad attributes.

She cannot see any good attibutes because you refuse to take them away. Meaning zero consequences. 
Even Dr. Harley imposes consequences in Plan A. I know you are a slow reader and busy man but instead
of badgering your wife you should be mowing thru these books.


----------



## anchorwatch

One MC session isn't very much to say anything yet. Keep it going, Grid. Use your head. You've got Retro line up too. It's a ways to go.


----------



## Evinrude58

After a two week hiatus, your mc spends an entire session on how YOU can get your wife to give you affection, yet does not address with your wife that she is still wanting the OM. She asks what your "goals" in life are....., I personally believe that your MC has no intention of helping you and your wife reconcile. She's just leading you and her to making up your minds on what you both want.
The mc doesn't think R is possible, and doesn't want to tell you so. She has no clue how to help you save your marriage. She's just taking your money until you figure out the obvious. Divorce her. It's over. I'll bet if you asked, the mc would tell you she doesn't think reconciliation is possible here. How do you feel the MC is helping? You've gone for a while and now your wife won't even accept affection from you. Where can this possibly go, grid?
What difference does it make who's fault this was? Yours or hers, she has checked out and is showing no desire to even try. Committed to the process? She isn't committed to one single thing. 
Btw, she saw the OM with another woman.... I think he's moved on and your wife is pissed at the world. Especially you. 
You are fast approaching the time when she makes her move to take you to the cleaners and you won't be decisive and take any action to protect yourself. Hire a lawyer grid. You're wasting precious time. Soon she will have justified in her mind all this and made herself feel guiltless. It will be too late then. I don't know what to say, other than I feel bad for you, but know I'm about to see the train coming and you're still waiting on the tracks like a deer in the headlights.
I won't bother you further.
I do wish you the best. God knows you have tried. Your wife hasn't.


----------



## gridcom

Evinrude58 said:


> After a two week hiatus, your mc spends an entire session on how YOU can get your wife to give you affection, yet does not address with your wife that she is still wanting the OM. She asks what your "goals" in life are....., I personally believe that your MC has no intention of helping you and your wife reconcile. She's just leading you and her to making up your minds on what you both want.
> The mc doesn't think R is possible, and doesn't want to tell you so. She has no clue how to help you save your marriage. She's just taking your money until you figure out the obvious. Divorce her. It's over. I'll bet if you asked, the mc would tell you she doesn't think reconciliation is possible here. How do you feel the MC is helping? You've gone for a while and now your wife won't even accept affection from you. Where can this possibly go, grid?
> What difference does it make who's fault this was? Yours or hers, she has checked out and is showing no desire to even try. Committed to the process? She isn't committed to one single thing.
> Btw, she saw the OM with another woman.... I think he's moved on and your wife is pissed at the world. Especially you.
> You are fast approaching the time when she makes her move to take you to the cleaners and you won't be decisive and take any action to protect yourself. Hire a lawyer grid. You're wasting precious time. Soon she will have justified in her mind all this and made herself feel guiltless. It will be too late then. I don't know what to say, other than I feel bad for you, but know I'm about to see the train coming and you're still waiting on the tracks like a deer in the headlights.
> I won't bother you further.
> I do wish you the best. God knows you have tried. Your wife hasn't.


I do think the MC thinks we are can reconcile. She is encouraging in that way, making us think there is a lot to work with in terms of compatibility and (surprise!) me being accountable. She didnt ask the question about future goals. We were picking cards out of a deck and thats a question we picked. Another question was "What's your partners favorite animal?" for example

Anyway, to answer questions about "getting ready" and getting a lawyer and being prepared, etc....because my wife may still be reading here occasionally, I'm choosing to leave that information out of this thread. 

I've been pretty clear that my #1 goal is to reconcile and reconcile in a real genuine way. That's what I come here for. 

That said, I'm not ignorant to the realities of all of this and am preparing. That's not something I want to discuss at this time.


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> I do think the MC thinks we are can reconcile. She is encouraging in that way, making us think there is a lot to work with in terms of compatibility and (surprise!) me being accountable. She didnt ask the question about future goals. We were picking cards out of a deck and thats a question we picked. Another question was "What's your partners favorite animal?" for example
> 
> Anyway, to answer questions about "getting ready" and getting a lawyer and being prepared, etc....because my wife may still be reading here occasionally, I'm choosing to leave that information out of this thread.
> 
> I've been pretty clear that my #1 goal is to reconcile and reconcile in a real genuine way. That's what I come here for.
> 
> That said, I'm not ignorant to the realities of all of this and am preparing. That's not something I want to discuss at this time.


Why is reconciling #1? Do you value yourself so low that you would want to be with someone who does not love you anymore. If you don't love yourself, no one else will either.


----------



## cbnero

I don't know much but I know you could have skipped 3000 posts on TAM and gotten to this point all by yourself.

You've chosen to follow the worst advice possible and here you are.


----------



## gridcom

ButtPunch said:


> Why is reconciling #1? Do you value yourself so low that you would want to be with someone who does not love you anymore. If you don't love yourself, no one else will either.


No. R is my #1 choice because I still love my wife and because I want to give my best efforts for my kids. Maybe not in that order anymore. I've said it before. We brought these kids into the world, and to me that means it's our responsibility to be the best parents we can be, and by extention that means it's our dual responsibility to give our best efforts in fixing our marriage if there is an issue within it. The kids came into the world with a promise from us that we would parent them as a couple, within the same house, under the same roof, and with harmony. 

If this marriage ends, I'm walking away knowing I did my very best to fix it and and keep it together. I'll be able to look in my children's eyes and know that to be the truth. Right now, my wife will not be able to do that.

That is very important to me, that I dont feel guilty about what happens to them in the aftermath. That I can tell them I gave it everything I had and sacrificed myself a great deal. I am not an expert on codependency, but I dont think it applies to young children when you are the parent. 

It's really that simple.

EDIT: If the marriage ends, I'll feel guilty for what happens to my kids to some level, but based on my effort I wont be overwhelmed and consumed with guilt. I wont be wearing guilt and carrying guilt on me like a plague. I didnt mean to say I'll have NO guilt, but I think there's a difference.


----------



## ButtPunch

Mr. Martyr you will soon realize that what you thought you had is already gone.

When someone cheats on your daughter are you going to give her the same advice?
_Posted via Mobile Device_

Keep hiding behind your kids.....I did it too.


----------



## gridcom

ButtPunch said:


> Mr. Martyr you will soon realize that what you thought you had is already gone.
> 
> When someone cheats on your daughter are you going to give her the same advice?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Depends on the circumstances. Your painting every scenario where there is infidelity with a one colored brush. 

If she has young children, I would definitely encourage my daughter to do her best to fix her marriage before hitting abort. Yes.


----------



## Anon Pink

Grid, you've got a lot of personal integrity! That's impressive. It's really not too often any husband, particularly betrayed husband's, who comes to TAM to fix his marriage is actually open to self examination. I really applaud that. 

One of the difficult things about marriage counseling is the therapist has to establish a safe environment in order for both spouses to speak and be heard. That sometimes means when the wife is the one who wants out, the husband is the one who has establish his willingness to hear. Your MC is establishing that with you to show to your wife..this is how it's done. Then it will be your wife's turn. 

TAM doesn't approve of any therapist who doesn't follow the TAMWay...so that's why they all think your therapist is crap.

You talked about your wife not wanting your affection. Was this a disclosure made at MC? How do you normally show affection? Under what circumstances do you show affection? How often do you show affection? How does she normally (as in the past few months normally) respond? Can you feel her leaning in to you or does she stiffen up? Does this mean sex is off the table as well? Are you guys sleeping in the same room together?

How often do you all eat dinner together? Are you focused on the kids during dinner or is there any back and forth between you and your wife? What happens after dinner? Who cleans up? Who puts the kids to bed? Who gets things ready for the next day? When that's all done, then what happens? Do you watch TV together or go to separate rooms and separate activities?

I have to say, my gut reaction to the no more affection statement is to ignore it and keep showing affection. But it depends on how she is receiving your affection. If she is stiffening up, then yes stop. But if you feel that she leans in, then ignore it. 

I'm beginning to think your wife in an emotional child with her unrealistic illusions of how life is going to be.


----------



## gridcom

ButtPunch said:


> Mr. Martyr you will soon realize that what you thought you had is already gone.
> 
> When someone cheats on your daughter are you going to give her the same advice?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> Keep hiding behind your kids.....I did it too.


With all the reading I've been doing, I have yet to read your thread, but I have cued up. I've read the beginning of it. Hopefully, I'm going to tackle it this week


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> Depends on the circumstances. Your painting every scenario where there is infidelity with a one colored brush.
> 
> If she has young children, I would definitely encourage my daughter to do her best to fix her marriage before hitting abort. Yes.


I never said abort. TAM has given you your best shot at saving your marriage but 
you have chosen another route. 

I would never tell my daughter to stay with a cheater who obviously doesn't love her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## gridcom

Anon Pink said:


> Grid, you've got a lot of personal integrity! That's impressive. It's really not too often any husband, particularly betrayed husband's, who comes to TAM to fix his marriage is actually open to self examination. I really applaud that.
> 
> One of the difficult things about marriage counseling is the therapist has to establish a safe environment in order for both spouses to speak and be heard. That sometimes means when the wife is the one who wants out, the husband is the one who has establish his willingness to hear. Your MC is establishing that with you to show to your wife..this is how it's done. Then it will be your wife's turn.
> 
> TAM doesn't approve of any therapist who doesn't follow the TAMWay...so that's why they all think your therapist is crap.
> 
> You talked about your wife not wanting your affection. Was this a disclosure made at MC?
> 
> No, it was made before MC and not discussed at MC this week
> 
> How do you normally show affection?
> 
> Light touching, grabbing of shoulders from behind, hugs from behind, rubbing her thigh when driving?
> 
> Under what circumstances do you show affection?
> 
> When I want to let her know I'm thinking fondly about her at that moment
> 
> How often do you show affection?
> 
> I was showing it multiple times a day up until she told me she wasn't feeling it. Not at all since. Feels weird
> 
> How does she normally (as in the past few months normally) respond?
> 
> She goes along with it, but doesn't at all initiate it nor does she reveal that it makes her happy (because it doesnt!)
> 
> 
> Can you feel her leaning in to you or does she stiffen up?
> 
> Either neutral or stiffen up, no leaning in
> 
> Does this mean sex is off the table as well?
> 
> I guess so, unless there is a huge shift
> 
> Are you guys sleeping in the same room together?
> 
> Always
> 
> How often do you all eat dinner together?
> 
> Every single night
> 
> Are you focused on the kids during dinner or is there any back and forth between you and your wife?
> 
> dinner, it's like the affair never happened and there is no trouble in the marriage. In fact, when we arent talking about the problems, that's what it's like all the time
> 
> 
> What happens after dinner? Who cleans up?
> 
> I usually go back upstairs to work. I usually clean up the majority of the dishes, but not right away
> 
> Who puts the kids to bed?
> 
> She does, unless she's working (like tonight) Then I will
> 
> 
> Who gets things ready for the next day?
> 
> For the kids, she does
> 
> 
> 
> When that's all done, then what happens? Do you watch TV together or go to separate rooms and separate activities?
> 
> She'll either sit in the living room with me and stare at Facebook and talk about her night or her day while staring at Facebook or she'll go to bed well before me and stare at Facebook
> 
> I have to say, my gut reaction to the no more affection statement is to ignore it and keep showing affection. But it depends on how she is receiving your affection. If she is stiffening up, then yes stop. But if you feel that she leans in, then ignore it.
> 
> I'm beginning to think your wife in an emotional child with her unrealistic illusions of how life is going to be.
> cannot agree more with the above statement


----------



## gridcom

ButtPunch said:


> I never said abort. TAM has given you your best shot at saving your marriage but
> you have chosen another route.
> 
> I would never tell my daughter to stay with a cheater who obviously doesn't love her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


See, you are doing the same thing my wife does

*I never said I would tell her to stay with a cheater. I would tell her to do her best to fix her marriage. There is a difference, a HUGE one.*

My wife says the same thing, and it drives me nuts. There is a difference between staying unhappily in a marriage and trying to fix your marriage with a sincere effort before pulling the plug.


----------



## Evinrude58

Grid, reconciliation is what you desperately want. I did, too. Saying you want it for your kids is irrelevant, fact is YOU want it. Nothing wrong with that. You are in a position that "communication" just won't work. She knows you want to reconcile. She'll battle you just for spite, because she wants to show you who is running things now.
Your wife senses that desperation of yours and it turns her off. Why should you give a a ****, logically? She doesn't love you!

You cannot be nice to her and get her back. That stuff doesn't work. The only chance you have is to show her the consequences of divorce and go on without her. She may just start to miss you, but it's doubtful, and you would be beating yourself to hope for it. I assure you she won't miss you when you're there! Has she?

She is divorcing YOU! I understand you not wanting to discuss the divorce side of it, but hated to see you penniless and seeing your kids every other weekend when it sounds to me that you are by far the most reliable parent.


----------



## azteca1986

lifeistooshort said:


> He said the same thing about financial security. How is that different?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Forgive me for answering you query with another question (which I'll answer).

*Q: *If their goals are aligned, why is Grid "pi$$ed off"?
*A: *The prime directive of most Husbands and fathers is to provide financial security for our families. It's what we do. Ask the same question of my wife and her answer would be <What's best for the kids>. An adjunct of what's best for the kids is maintaining a relationship with their father. 

Me: Provide for family = Family intact
Her: What's best for the kids = Family intact

They are two sides of the same coin. Grid says exactly that, in the subsequent post below:


gridcom said:


> No. R is my #1 choice because I still love my wife and because I want to give my best efforts for my kids. Maybe not in that order anymore. I've said it before. We brought these kids into the world, and to me that means it's our responsibility to be the best parents we can be, and by extention that means it's our dual responsibility to give our best efforts in fixing our marriage if there is an issue within it. The kids came into the world with a promise from us that *we would parent them as a couple, within the same house, under the same roof, and with harmony.*


So, when Mrs. Grid answers with "financial security", with no mention whatsoever about kids or family, he can see that she means to be independent. Of him. The writing is on the wall. 

And he knows it. Which is _why_ he got pi$$ed off.


----------



## gridcom

azteca1986 said:


> Forgive me for answering you query with another question (which I'll answer).
> 
> *Q: *If their goals are aligned, why is Grid "pi$$ed off"?
> *A: *The prime directive of most Husbands and fathers is to provide financial security for our families. It's what we do. Ask the same question of my wife and her answer would be <What's best for the kids>. An adjunct of what's best for the kids is maintaining a relationship with their father.
> 
> Me: Provide for family = Family intact
> Her: What's best for the kids = Family intact
> 
> They are two sides of the same coin. Grid says exactly that, in the subsequent post below:
> So, when Mrs. Grid answers with "financial security", with no mention whatsoever about kids or family, he can see that she means to be independent. Of him. The writing is on the wall.
> 
> And he knows it. Which is _why_ he got pi$$ed off.


No, that's not why I was angry. First off, the question was "What goal in life has your partner yet to accomplish?"

We were supposed to answer for each other. While we were thinking, I answered to myself that my #1 goal left to accomplish is to be financially secure. When I was asked what my wife's #1 goal was, I answered that her last goal left to accomplish is to be finanically secure. She agreed.

I was angry because if that's both the last goal left for us, and important, then it sucks that we are headed for divorce, as that will not help either one of us in achieving that goal.


----------



## azteca1986

I apologise of my misunderstanding.


gridcom said:


> Then she told the MC her number one goal in life was financial security
> 
> This kind of pi$$ed me off, since getting divorced is exactly the opposite of accomplishing that goal, but whatever I guess..





gridcom said:


> When I was asked what my wife's #1 goal was, I answered that her last goal left to accomplish is to be finanically secure. She agreed.


What did she answer for you?


----------



## gridcom

azteca1986 said:


> I apologise of my misunderstanding.
> 
> 
> What did she answer for you?


She was never asked. And I kept my answer to myself. Not sure why.
We were supposed to each pick a card and answer the question about our partner. Not each of us answering. She got easy questions


----------



## truster

gridcom said:


> So, towards the end of MC after nearly 40 minutes on me, I had to remind everybody that my wife cheated, was still playing the song game with AP (which she still denies), and despite any forward momentum on my end (which there is), this is still clearly a three way marriage right now. I told my wife way back, like in August, tell me all of these things when your AP's hook isnt in your heart and then I'll believe you are coming from an honest place


An interesting thing I've noticed in stories here, and from people I know, and from reading academic journals, is that counselors are a far more subjective lot than we tend to give them credit for. Identical stories seem to get polar opposites of advice. When they get together for a drink, or debate in a journal, the conversations tend to go just as opposing posts in this thread go -- only with slightly more references. Thing is though, there's literature enough to reference for any opinion or philosophical outlook.

All that said, they do deal with certain issues 40+ hours a week, and so they see patterns, and so they have insight more than the layperson. If they don't see certain issues enough, however, they may not have that experience. So it might make sense to see someone who specializes in infidelity.

Of course, that's a judgement passed from a brief summary of a single session by a single participant. But I think it's natural for you to think, "Well, OK, of course I have my problems, but perhaps can we split time 50/50 on her problems and mine?".. especially with infidelity being a BIG deal. It wouldn't be rude if you bring up, politely enough, that the infidelity is a huge deal to you (you can't sleep, the vomiting..), and you're a bit confused why it shouldn't be addressed -- and could the counselor help you out by communicating what his/her strategy is for not addressing it so far, to ease your mind?


----------



## Anon Pink

Grid, thanks for answering my questions about affection and family togetherness.

Idk, maybe it's just me and other women are more like your wife? I can not CAN NOT pretend to be normal when things aren't. When I'm angry at my H, everyone knows! I can't hide it even if I wanted to. But from the way you've answered it seems like your wife is very adept at faking it. Pretends things are normal, pretends the marriage is normal, pretends everything is fine...

Have you always been an affectionate guy? Has the level of affection you've shown changed since D Day?

Since D Day, your wife hasn't returned your affection, remains either neutral or stiffens up when you give her affection. Is this normal for her or just since D Day?


----------



## gridcom

truster said:


> An interesting thing I've noticed in stories here, and from people I know, and from reading academic journals, is that counselors are a far more subjective lot than we tend to give them credit for. Identical stories seem to get polar opposites of advice. When they get together for a drink, or debate in a journal, the conversations tend to go just as opposing posts in this thread go -- only with slightly more references. Thing is though, there's literature enough to reference for any opinion or philosophical outlook.
> 
> All that said, they do deal with certain issues 40+ hours a week, and so they see patterns, and so they have insight more than the layperson. If they don't see certain issues enough, however, they may not have that experience. So it might make sense to see someone who specializes in infidelity.
> 
> Of course, that's a judgement passed from a brief summary of a single session by a single participant. But I think it's natural for you to think, "Well, OK, of course I have my problems, but perhaps can we split time 50/50 on her problems and mine?".. especially with infidelity being a BIG deal. It wouldn't be rude if you bring up, politely enough, that the infidelity is a huge deal to you (you can't sleep, the vomiting..), and you're a bit confused why it shouldn't be addressed -- and could the counselor help you out by communicating what his/her strategy is for not addressing it so far, to ease your mind?


For clarity, we've seen her 3X now. I chose her because she was 1-female 2-christian 3- slightly older than us 4- soft spoken and 5- in our benefits network (a thin lot)

I think it's also worth mentioning that now 2 MC's have focused on me, my IC focuses on me (well, duh), her IC apparently (from what my wife says) told my wife she needed to leave me, the woman at my wife's church who is trying to help both of us is more focused on what I can be doing as opposed to focusing on her.

My point, several pages ago, was that my wife claims she is committed to the process and I want to know what a healthy definition of that is, because I dont think she is. I think she is committed in her mind and heart to thinking about the "love" that she's "lost" and she knows it and thus, she's not committed to the process.


----------



## gridcom

Anon Pink said:


> Grid, thanks for answering my questions about affection and family togetherness.
> 
> Idk, maybe it's just me and other women are more like your wife? I can not CAN NOT pretend to be normal when things aren't. When I'm angry at my H, everyone knows! I can't hide it even if I wanted to. But from the way you've answered it seems like your wife is very adept at faking it. Pretends things are normal, pretends the marriage is normal, pretends everything is fine...
> 
> Have you always been an affectionate guy?
> 
> No
> 
> 
> Has the level of affection you've shown changed since D Day?
> 
> 
> Yes
> 
> Since D Day, your wife hasn't returned your affection, remains either neutral or stiffens up when you give her affection. Is this normal for her or just since D Day?
> 
> Just since D-day


----------



## Anon Pink

Then don't stop showing affection. Don't paw at her, don't desperately seek her reciprocal feelings or actions. But if you feel it, do it, without care of her response.

Back during our dark days I had a difficult time remaining aloof, unless I was actively angry. No one likes to live in a tense and uncomfortable environment. The rare times my husband showed affection I melted. I hated that I melted! I hated that I couldn't NOT respond. Then of course there is my hyper drive sex drive... And of course I couldn't turn that off either! Even in our dark time we had sex 3-5 times a week, I would have liked even more.

I think your wife's neutral response is her trying to remain distant. If she stiffens, that a whole other story. If she makes a fist...run! 

So, I think your affection should be a natural expression of how you feel and you should continue.

And have sex as often as possible.


----------



## Thundarr

gridcom said:


> See, you are doing the same thing my wife does
> 
> *I never said I would tell her to stay with a cheater. I would tell her to do her best to fix her marriage. There is a difference, a HUGE one.*
> 
> My wife says the same thing, and it drives me nuts. There is a difference between staying unhappily in a marriage and trying to fix your marriage with a sincere effort before pulling the plug.


Hi Gridcom. Is your wife asking you why you would stay with her because she's a cheater?


----------



## gridcom

Thundarr said:


> Hi Gridcom. Is your wife asking you why you would stay with her because she's a cheater?


No. She doesn't ask that. I think that my intentions have been made clear, so no need to ask

>??<


----------



## Thundarr

gridcom said:


> No. She doesn't ask that. I think that my intentions have been made clear, so no need to ask
> 
> >??<


Thanks for clarifying. I thought maybe when you said "See, you are doing the same thing my wife does" to another poster that you meant your wife had uttered those same words.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Anon Pink said:


> TAM doesn't approve of any therapist who doesn't follow the TAMWay...so that's why they all think your therapist is crap.


LOL. Grid, this goes both ways. There are threads were the alleged "TAMWay" is a therapist getting blasted for suggesting divorce instead of reconciliation.


If you like the therapist and the person helps you, keep on trucking.


----------



## turnera

Evinrude58 said:


> You are in a position that "communication" just won't work. She knows you want to reconcile. She'll battle you just for spite, because she wants to show you who is running things now.


Yep. 


Evinrude58 said:


> Your wife senses that desperation of yours and it turns her off.


Double yep. After years of being ruled, she's not having any of that. 

And being affectionate multiple times a day, to a woman you've railroaded all those years? No offense, but that's gross. In HER mind.


----------



## turnera

gridcom said:


> No, that's not why I was angry. First off, the question was "What goal in life has your partner yet to accomplish?"
> 
> We were supposed to answer for each other. While we were thinking, I answered to myself that my #1 goal left to accomplish is to be financially secure. When I was asked what my wife's #1 goal was, I answered that her last goal left to accomplish is to be finanically secure. She agreed.
> 
> I was angry because if that's both the last goal left for us, and important, then it sucks that we are headed for divorce, as that will not help either one of us in achieving that goal.


To a woman who's been married to a man who's railroaded her, she sees financial security as something SHE needs to achieve, on her own, without his interfering or controlling.

Now, is it naive of her to think she'll accomplish that, when she's not even willing to get a full-time job? Sure is. But if a woman's decided that it's your fault she's unhappy, she'll do anything to get away from it. Like you said, if she had money, she'd be gone.


----------



## Evinrude58

But has she been pushed on and made to feel powerless by grid? There maybe a reason he was that way. She may be irresponsible, who knows what else?. She certainly seems like she can be based on what we have heard. I think she should give grid a chance to make things right. She's not going to, but I still wish she would.
I just don't think he is wise to give HER another chance. She doesn't love him and that's kinda a deal breaker. All this is moot,because mrs grid is driving this train, and she is not sharing the driver's seat.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Grid - you said something interesting and a bit sad. Her desire for a close relationship is actually very normal in a marriage. Most guys don't start off with that sort of attitude, but I'm surprised you never developed that "feminine" part of your personality.

Maybe this is why everyone keeps pointing the finger back toward you? IDK.

But... a very close, personal relationship is one of the real benefits marriage brings to men that they might not get on their own. It's also a complete requirement for most women.

It may not be one of your "needs" but I strongly encourage you to make it one. It will keep your spouse happy and content, and enrich your life.

A day late and a dollar short I'm afraid... but if you can somehow show progress internally here without coddling her... tough at this point.


----------



## LongWalk

Grid,



How exactly did your wife broach the subject of cutting out affection?



Do you think her mind set is like Anon Pink's? Or is she perhaps as Turnera warns, perhaps repulsed by the touchy feely neediness whose well is the need to reconcile?


Your thread has evoked a huge response from both men and women. You have expressed appreciation for the support but do you have any theory as to why you are successful as a poster?



Does your wife use the word "process"? That is an incredibly cold way to describe possible reconciliation. Does it mean that she believes there is some ember of love for you that she can allow to flame up or work to smother? Or do you think that she feels there is no love and that she is merely staring into the empty shell of a dead relationship?



How could you have so utterly missed the emotional reality that for year most of her smiles related to her thoughts of OM? You were oblivious. You had sex with your wife and she was thinking of him... for months. Do you agree that expressions of sex and affection are disturbing her relationship with OM?



This just popped up in the TAM feed: 


> tamdesp
> Registered User
> 
> Join Date: Mar 2014
> Posts: 8
> Re: Desperately want to save my marriage or am I stupid?
> Here I am reading this thread almost 2 years later in retrospect and regret not having followed any of the advice given to me. My wife simply used me during this time to live freely under my roof, framed me as a bad husband and has developed an exit strategy (D) which will cost me emotionally and financially. 2 years ago, she was ready to leave the M w/o the kid and any money.
> 
> Yes, I have been stupid!


----------



## Keepin-my-head-up

Damn.
You just refuse to get a lawyer regardless of what your wife does.
Maybe you know exactly how this is going to play out?

You already know all the steps your wife has taken.

Now you have a mc who is turning the focus on you.
Whatever, it's your counselor.

Ask your mc if she is going to help you pay for all the catching up you will have to do.
All the deferments and extensions you will have to do.(and pay for)
Cause you see, this is a counseling session where a divorce has already been served!

You won't ask your wife how often she speaks to her attorney?
Here is the thing.
You can think all you want that you will put up with a miserable marriage for the kids.
That you will bite the bullet and suffer if need be.

Well brother, your wife doesn't want that!
She doesn't want the kids and her living in a toxic environment(cause in her mind you are the sole cause of it)
She is showing you this.
Oh sure Rville may make everything better, but what if it doesn't?
It is in two weeks right?
With 6 to 8 weeks of meetings after?
So, that is 8-10 weeks she has a jump on you.

Get a lawyer.
Been thru this.
You need to switch to her mind frame.
Go forward and take the rein in the legal and take a well see attitude with the reconciliation.

Or you can continue going to counseling and get mad at your counselor because you feel she is picking on you.

Get a lawyer and tell your wife you are ok with whatever happens.
And then do whatever it takes to be as ok as you can because, well you really dont have a choice.
The choice is hers


----------



## lifeistooshort

LongWalk said:


> Grid,
> 
> 
> 
> How exactly did your wife broach the subject of cutting out affection?
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think her mind set is like Anon Pink's? Or is she perhaps as Turnera warns, perhaps repulsed by the touchy feely neediness whose well is the need to reconcile?
> 
> 
> Your thread has evoked a huge response from both men and women. You have expressed appreciation for the support but do you have any theory as to why you are successful as a poster?
> 
> 
> 
> Does your wife use the word "process"? That is an incredibly cold way to describe possible reconciliation. Does it mean that she believes there is some ember of love for you that she can allow to flame up or work to smother? Or do you think that she feels there is no love and that she is merely staring into the empty shell of a dead relationship?
> 
> 
> 
> How could you have so utterly missed the emotional reality that for year most of her smiles related to her thoughts of OM? You were oblivious. You had sex with your wife and she was thinking of him... for months. Do you agree that expressions of sex and affection are disturbing her relationship with OM?
> 
> 
> 
> This just popped up in the TAM feed:


The lack of a close relationship with his wife can cause that. It means you're not in tune with what's normal for them and don't pick up on emotional changes. 

My father spent an entire night with my ex during our divorce trying to talk to him. He told me after that what really struck him was that this guy slept next to me for 7 years and really didn't know that much about me. Didn't seem to know what bothered me or made me tick.....my dad could not understand this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lifeistooshort

TheTruthHurts said:


> Grid - you said something interesting and a bit sad. Her desire for a close relationship is actually very normal in a marriage. Most guys don't start off with that sort of attitude, but I'm surprised you never developed that "feminine" part of your personality.
> 
> Maybe this is why everyone keeps pointing the finger back toward you? IDK.
> 
> But... a very close, personal relationship is one of the real benefits marriage brings to men that they might not get on their own. It's also a complete requirement for most women.
> 
> It may not be one of your "needs" but I strongly encourage you to make it one. It will keep your spouse happy and content, and enrich your life.
> 
> A day late and a dollar short I'm afraid... but if you can somehow show progress internally here without coddling her... tough at this point.



I really like this post. Thank you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## gridcom

I asked about being affectionate. She said it's because I was not very affectionate before this all happened, so it feels insincere and forced. It's not, but that's how she feels.


----------



## jld

gridcom said:


> I asked about being affectionate. She said it's because I was not very affectionate before this all happened, so it feels insincere and forced. It's not, but that's how she feels.


Show her she can trust you. Earn that trust.


----------



## cbnero

Mind reading the WS is foolishness to me. Who cares? She probably doesn't want grid to touch her because she has been banging another dude for a year and the only way she cannot be a total b!tch in her mind is to project all the blame to grid. So there you go. No matter what he does at this point - it ain't gonna matter. Grid is the a-hole scapegoat. Period.

How about he tells her to forget Retro, that he would like her to move out immediately , and pushes right on with this D? 180 the hell out of it and put a win for himself on the board! Or he can lay in the fetal position licking whatever sh!t off the floor she allows and tells him it's filet mignon.
At some point this fantasy land stuff is gonna end anyways. Do it on your terms, not hers. She sucks!


----------



## jld

I admire your willingness to work at putting your pride aside and letting your love for her and your kids guide you. It is the way of a mature husband and father.


----------



## Pluto2

Grid,

Sorry about the Mets.

I can definitely understand your frustration in MC. Marriage takes two people, each of whom contribute in their own way to the problems that can develop, and both of whom SHOULD contribute to fixing those problems. To date, you are the only one who is making any effort to clean your side of the street, as it were. If you've had enough of that, it behooves you to raise the issue with the MC before your frustration turns into resentment. Resentment is not productive and won't get you were you need to go in any R.

AND IMO, your wife had an obligation to do the same in the marriage. She is not addressing this, and her lack of action is being reinforced by the MC. One person, alone cannot fix a damaged relationship.

And from someone who dealt with an emotionally and verbally abusive H, the sudden change in physical intimacy *may* come across as desperate and manipulative. But since none of us can read your wife's mind, it is difficult to know for sure.


----------



## LongWalk

Jld,

Your over all goal of reconciliation is fine. Your belief in the triumph of love is dandy. However, the lack of weight on the value of self respect is a mistake. 

When any person casts their own value away, they demean themselves to both self and world.

Mrs Grid is calling his affection false, a phony pretense. In your opinion Grid is sincere. You and she hold diametrically opposed views. This threads followers take Grid to be an earnest fellow, a chap who puked at the thought of OM and his wife twisted together.

Actually Grid's wife is the phony. She was in love with the OM for a year. Her happiness at the job had her glowing. Grid could, at the beginning of this thread, scarcely imagine her quitting the job. In truth, she concealed her affection for OM and his sexual attentions. She has acted falsely, not Grid.

If she now said that Grid's affection was not enjoyable to her, that sex with him did not pleasure, that would be honest.

The marriage of an earnest person to a practiced deceiver is inherently likely to fail, especially when both vow to cherish and respect each other.


----------



## ButtPunch

Good Grief!

Maybe she wants to be faithful to the OM now
and that's why she doesn't want affection.

We have seen that numerous times on TAM. 

Never sacrifice yourself to save a marriage.


----------



## jld

Grid, please do not make the mistake so many other posters do, of expecting men and women to be exactly the same, to think the same, to react the same. It is unlikely to be successful.

Your wife has certain needs you may not have. Success will not come from beating her over the head about morality, or demanding she meet your needs equally to the way you meet hers. 

Success will come from being patient and sincere, understanding and compassionate. That will inspire her to begin meeting your needs, and to then more fully meet them, from her heart, which will be filled with love and gratitude to you.

Pride is the enemy here. Give in to it at your family's peril.


----------



## lifeistooshort

gridcom said:


> I asked about being affectionate. She said it's because I was not very affectionate before this all happened, so it feels insincere and forced. It's not, but that's how she feels.


If it's not forced then why wasn't it there before?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

Jld,

There is a life style that meets your recommendations — swinging. A man accepts his wife's needs for other men. He respects her caressing another man's genitals and coming home to turn away from him.

Cuckolding is a variant. 

Do you recommend it to save Grid's marriage?


----------



## gridcom

lifeistooshort said:


> If it's not forced then why wasn't it there before?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


because I was a self absorbed workaholic who took my marriage for granted. This "jolt" has awakened all of that, and a byproduct of that jolt is I often feel like I want to just take a minute, grab my wife, and tell her I appreciate her


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> There is a difference between staying unhappily in a marriage and trying to fix your marriage with a sincere effort before pulling the plug.


Grid

Your wife already pulled the plug. You are putting the entire weight of your marriage, your kids financial future and happiness all on your shoulders. That's not healthy. You are not going to be able to will yourself a reconciliation and as long as you keep shoving this reconciliation down her throat she is going to pull further and further away. Women don't want men who don't value themselves. 

How do you know this will mess your kids up financially? You may divorce and end up marrying a brain surgeon who actually loves you. Your WW may strike it rich. The kids may get to see what a loving relationship actually looks like if you both can clean up your sides of the street. 

You would be surprised at how little control you have in all this. If your wife isn't dialed in at Retro, I would pull a hard 180 when you get back.


----------



## jld

You know perfectly well I do not, LW.

Worked to get me to address someone besides grid, though, you clever man. 

All right, back to grid.


----------



## jld

gridcom said:


> because I was a self absorbed workaholic who took my marriage for granted. This "jolt" has awakened all of that, and a byproduct of that jolt is I often feel like I want to just take a minute, grab my wife, and tell her I appreciate her


Have you told her this?


----------



## Pluto2

One person cannot fix a broken relationship.


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> because I was a self absorbed workaholic who took my marriage for granted.


This is the one I tried to blame myself for. 

It's not your fault she cheated, Grid.


----------



## jld

You know you can fix this, grid. You are the dominant partner here. It is not too late. I believe this.

Your pride is your only enemy. And you know how to overcome it.


----------



## Pluto2

I don't see your pride as an issue in the problems you have in your marriage.

Difference Between Pride and Self-esteem | Difference Between | Pride vs Self-esteem

And I commend you for wanting to work on your marriage to try to save it, but again, you cannot fix a broken relationship by yourself-which is what you are doing. There has to be a willingness on both parties. It took two people to break the relationship and mus take two people to fix it.


----------



## Chaparral

Evinrude58 said:


> After a two week hiatus, your mc spends an entire session on how YOU can get your wife to give you affection, yet does not address with your wife that she is still wanting the OM. She asks what your "goals" in life are....., I personally believe that your MC has no intention of helping you and your wife reconcile. She's just leading you and her to making up your minds on what you both want.
> The mc doesn't think R is possible, and doesn't want to tell you so. She has no clue how to help you save your marriage. She's just taking your money until you figure out the obvious. Divorce her. It's over. I'll bet if you asked, the mc would tell you she doesn't think reconciliation is possible here. How do you feel the MC is helping? You've gone for a while and now your wife won't even accept affection from you. Where can this possibly go, grid?
> What difference does it make who's fault this was? Yours or hers, she has checked out and is showing no desire to even try. Committed to the process? She isn't committed to one single thing.
> Btw, she saw the OM with another woman.... I think he's moved on and your wife is pissed at the world. Especially you.
> You are fast approaching the time when she makes her move to take you to the cleaners and you won't be decisive and take any action to protect yourself. Hire a lawyer grid. You're wasting precious time. Soon she will have justified in her mind all this and made herself feel guiltless. It will be too late then. I don't know what to say, other than I feel bad for you, but know I'm about to see the train coming and you're still waiting on the tracks like a deer in the headlights.
> I won't bother you further.
> I do wish you the best. God knows you have tried. Your wife hasn't.



How did you verify she saw him with another woman.

You say they are still sending each other love songs. Your wife says they are not. So, she's still lying to you about the relationship. What else is she lying about?

You have followed JLD's, a poster with a lot of posts but a relative newbie to this forum with zero experience in infidelity, advice and it has pushed your wife further and further away. Now she says no affection, in other words, get lost.

The veterans here have given you the best advice possible. I have never seen them stick with someone as oblivious as you this long. Thats how bad they want to help.

Everything you have done has lost more and more respect. Yes you have anger and self control problems. You'stubborn and you think you're always right. Obviously, you're wrong.

The odds were never in your favor. However, no one has yet pointed to a thread where what JLD is suggesting and your actions have worked. What does that tell the average person? 

On the other hand the vets here can show you success stories.


----------



## ButtPunch

Pluto2 said:


> One person cannot fix a broken relationship.


Sadly, This is what it all boils down to.


----------



## turnera

lifeistooshort said:


> If it's not forced then why wasn't it there before?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Because, as he says, he took her and the marriage for granted. He was BUSY. As many men do, he was busy earning the almighty dollar - for both financial reward and for the ego-stroking it gave him to succeed, while subconsciously basking in the thought of his wife at home, keeping the homefront safe and secure JUST SO he could go out and succeed. It's human nature to take your partner for granted, especially if when pushed, they retreat into the woodwork, as his wife did. As I did. 

Such tiny subtle things, those 'pushes,' but so powerfully do they dictate the pushee's choices. Yesterday I helped my H install a dishwasher. Which, in our household, means I stand there for four hours waiting to be told what to do. And when he tells me to come over, and I assume he wants it moved closer to him so I start moving it, he angrily replies "Who told you to move it [email protected]#$#" So I leave the room, as I've been taught by IC, and go have a cry. And the pusher has NO IDEA why I'm crying. Because it's become my role to suffer in silence because, well, I'm not aggressive to begin with and because when I AM aggressive back, he turns it back around to how much HE is suffering, how much worse HE has it in life (so who the hell are you to dare complain?), so I once again back down, shut up, shut off, and shudder that night when he tries to get close to me in bed.

Yes, I know I'm supposed to tell him how I feel. But decades of how much worse HE has it has conditioned me to just give up and not start anything, lest I get an hour or two of telling me why I have it better than him.

If I'm not mistaken, this is what Mrs. Grid has been dealing with. Even ONE instance of this can have a woman wondering what just happened and - more importantly - what did *I *do wrong? Because that's what most women do: blame themselves. And once you blame yourself, you find it hard to stand up for yourself.

No mistaking, she did wrong by falling in love with someone else. I believe that she only had sex once and that powerful act broke the fantasy for her that it was wrong, what she was doing. But to - because she told her H - have her H suddenly turn into a clingy, grabby, schmoopy guy, when she's already fallen out of love with him over the years of pushing, and then found someone else who does NOT berate her, push her, belittle her, verbally push her into a corner just so he can 'win'...it's not hard to see why she doesn't want him touching her. She stopped wanting that a long time ago.


----------



## Chaparral

gridcom said:


> I asked about being affectionate. She said it's because I was not very affectionate before this all happened, so it feels insincere and forced. It's not, but that's how she feels.


Tell her since it looks like time is running out on the marriage you want to get what you can now.


----------



## jld

Several people on this forum have told me my advice has been helpful to them, grid. And considering it closely resembles what both of your counselors are saying, as well as what Dr. Harley suggested in the letter I quoted, I feel confident you will be successful following it, too. I just do not see a drawback to humbling oneself and becoming more compassionate, patient, and understanding.

I think a dominant male can _absolutely_ turn around his relationship. And that is what you are, grid. 

Quite frankly, your potential to perfect your unselfish dominance is the only reason I am in this thread. It is what gives me hope for your marriage. If I did not see it, I would likely just tell you to divorce.


----------



## cbnero

No kidding! I feel like we're all being punked and this is just the ultimate troll post.

Otherwise how can one guy come here, ask for help, and then do the opposite of everything he's told? I'm ready to give up on it. Like I said before, he could have skipped TAM altogether and arrived to this point all on his own. I know this because I did it (pre TAM). I mean literally almost the identical. It's painful to watch 3rd person. I wish I had TAM at grids stage, and here he is just flushing it all down the drain. Why be here if you aren't going to follow any advice other than the stuff that mirrors your own incorrect instincts? Your instincts and behavior got you to this point. Amplifying and theorizing it all day and mindreadng /manipulating your stbx won't help. You need a new plan grid. Wake up!

You wife hates you. Marriage is over and dead. She is lying and leading you on until she can leave your sorry a$$. You are burying your head in the sand and playing fantasy with a bunch of inexperienced Eat Pray Love online meanwhile your chance of reconciliation just keeps getting smaller. Nut up man!


----------



## Pluto2

Even Harley doesn't recommend indefinite Plan A. He says to try to nice them out of an affair for six months to a year (I find the differing time recommendations particularly chauvinistic, but that's me). You've been here five months and have seen no progress.


----------



## Anon Pink

turnera said:


> Because, as he says, he took her and the marriage for granted. He was BUSY. As many men do, he was busy earning the almighty dollar - for both financial reward and for the ego-stroking it gave him to succeed, while subconsciously basking in the thought of his wife at home, keeping the homefront safe and secure JUST SO he could go out and succeed. It's human nature to take your partner for granted, especially if when pushed, they retreat into the woodwork, as his wife did. As I did.
> 
> Such tiny subtle things, those 'pushes,' but so powerfully do they dictate the pushee's choices. Yesterday I helped my H install a dishwasher. Which, in our household, means I stand there for four hours waiting to be told what to do. And when he tells me to come over, and I assume he wants it moved closer to him so I start moving it, he angrily replies "Who told you to move it [email protected]#$#" So I leave the room, as I've been taught by IC, and go have a cry. And the pusher has NO IDEA why I'm crying. Because it's become my role to suffer in silence because, well, I'm not aggressive to begin with and because when I AM aggressive back, he turns it back around to how much HE is suffering, how much worse HE has it in life (so who the hell are you to dare complain?), so I once again back down, shut up, shut off, and shudder that night when he tries to get close to me in bed.
> 
> Yes, I know I'm supposed to tell him how I feel. But decades of how much worse HE has it has conditioned me to just give up and not start anything, lest I get an hour or two of telling me why I have it better than him.
> 
> If I'm not mistaken, this is what Mrs. Grid has been dealing with. Even ONE instance of this can have a woman wondering what just happened and - more importantly - what did *I *do wrong? Because that's what most women do: blame themselves. And once you blame yourself, you find it hard to stand up for yourself.
> 
> No mistaking, she did wrong by falling in love with someone else. I believe that she only had sex once and that powerful act broke the fantasy for her that it was wrong, what she was doing. But to - because she told her H - have her H suddenly turn into a clingy, grabby, schmoopy guy, when she's already fallen out of love with him over the years of pushing, and then found someone else who does NOT berate her, push her, belittle her, verbally push her into a corner just so he can 'win'...it's not hard to see why she doesn't want him touching her. She stopped wanting that a long time ago.


EXACTLY!!!!!!

Grid, continue the affection and when you sense her stiffening up, tell her you regret not being affectionate before and whether she wants your affection or not, you're going to continue to show her your affectionate feeling for her. Ask her to tell you what she's feeling when she stiffens up. 

Address the elephant in the room. Be strong enough to hear her, wise enough to separate reality from fantasy, and soft enough to empathize with her.

"You just stiffened up, what going through your mind about me running my hands down your arms?"

"You never did that before and it feels fake. Like you're trying to be this nice guy all of a sudden. I don't believe it."

"You don't feel my affection represents my true feelings because I was too self absorbed to show it before. I don't know how to convince you this isn't fake or forced, but I'm not going to stop doing something I should have been doing all along."

"But I want you to stop! I don't want your affection!"

"I know you want me to stop because you don't want to feel my affection. But we are still living together as husband and wife, still sleeping together and still parenting together and until all of that stops I will continue to show you how I feel about you especially because I should have been doing this all along."

"God, you're so pig headed!"

"Yes but I'm your pig headed husband who loves you and will no longer hold back showing it." 
End of discussion, either leave the room or change the topic.

Grid, I think you should continue to show affection and follow the type of dialogue above because it demonstrates strength. A man who is as you've described yourself *can* be seen as a strong man, and I think your wife was originally attracted to this. You want to capitalize on what attracted her to you in the first place and keep doing that, or doing it more.


----------



## jld

Grid, you have not completely done what Dr. Harley recommends. And there have been lots of slip ups. That is okay; it just means you need to buckle down and work harder, and possibly increase the length of time you try. 

And there really is no time limit. It is up to your own particular limits, or, imo, whatever time it takes to achieve the goal: healing the relationship.


----------



## turnera

Showing affection is one thing. Continuously approaching her 5 to 10 times a day is quite another.


----------



## Pluto2

:slap::slap:

Worst advice I've ever read
Good luck Grid.

And let me say as a woman who was with a man who actually was emotionally and verbally abusive-you are neither or those things. Neglectful of the relationship, yep. Abusive-no. And that's why I disagree with the advice that suggests you turn yourself in to martyr.

The affair was not your fault, and contrary to what other posters believe you did not cause it, that was her choice. I've never recommend you demean her or flail her bad choice in her face, because I don't believe you would or have done so. One person didn't break the relationshp and one person can't fix it.

Again, best of luck. 
I'm out.


----------



## jld

Anon Pink said:


> EXACTLY!!!!!!
> 
> Grid, continue the affection and when you sense her stiffening up, tell her you regret not being affectionate before and whether she wants your affection or not, you're going to continue to show her your affectionate feeling for her. Ask her to tell you what she's feeling when she stiffens up.
> 
> Address the elephant in the room. Be strong enough to hear her, wise enough to separate reality from fantasy, and soft enough to empathize with her.
> 
> "You just stiffened up, what going through your mind about me running my hands down your arms?"
> 
> "You never did that before and it feels fake. Like you're trying to be this nice guy all of a sudden. I don't believe it."
> 
> "You don't feel my affection represents my true feelings because I was too self absorbed to show it before. I don't know how to convince you this isn't fake or forced, but I'm not going to stop doing something I should have been doing all along."
> 
> "But I want you to stop! I don't want your affection!"
> 
> "I know you want me to stop because you don't want to feel my affection. But we are still living together as husband and wife, still sleeping together and still parenting together and until all of that stops I will continue to show you how I feel about you especially because I should have been doing this all along."
> 
> "God, you're so pig headed!"
> 
> "Yes but I'm your pig headed husband who loves you and will no longer hold back showing it."
> End of discussion, either leave the room or change the topic.
> 
> Grid, I think you should continue to show affection and follow the type of dialogue above because it demonstrates strength. A man who is as you've described yourself *can* be seen as a strong man, and I think your wife was originally attracted to this. You want to capitalize on what attracted her to you in the first place and keep doing that, or doing it more.


AP, you know the high esteem I have for your advice. You are truly a TAM treasure, and we are privileged that you are here. 

You and I both love dominant men.  We love the secure feeling male dominance brings. And your advice above may be exactly what grid needs to do.

I feel somewhat nervous about it, myself. Dug and I once had a time when I was so upset with him I could not speak. I felt disrespected and frightened by something he had done. 

What I needed was for him to gently ask me what was wrong, and then kindly but patiently give me time to tell him, if he could not come up with it himself.

But he did not do that. He insisted on pulling me to him and lying beside me, massaging me for about an hour. 

Dug, at 6'2", 200 lbs, is much bigger than I am. I am not in a position to physically resist him. But I felt even more disrespected and alienated by what I perceived at his physical mastery of me, and my perceived inability to escape.

It is a long story, but the tension was eventually resolved through talking, and through Dug's doing many of the things I have advised to grid.

Again, your advice may be exactly what will work for Mrs. Grid. I trust grid to be the judge of that. But he may want to consider my concern for caution, too.


----------



## lifeistooshort

turnera said:


> Because, as he says, he took her and the marriage for granted. He was BUSY. As many men do, he was busy earning the almighty dollar - for both financial reward and for the ego-stroking it gave him to succeed, while subconsciously basking in the thought of his wife at home, keeping the homefront safe and secure JUST SO he could go out and succeed. It's human nature to take your partner for granted, especially if when pushed, they retreat into the woodwork, as his wife did. As I did.
> 
> Such tiny subtle things, those 'pushes,' but so powerfully do they dictate the pushee's choices. Yesterday I helped my H install a dishwasher. Which, in our household, means I stand there for four hours waiting to be told what to do. And when he tells me to come over, and I assume he wants it moved closer to him so I start moving it, he angrily replies "Who told you to move it [email protected]#$#" So I leave the room, as I've been taught by IC, and go have a cry. And the pusher has NO IDEA why I'm crying. Because it's become my role to suffer in silence because, well, I'm not aggressive to begin with and because when I AM aggressive back, he turns it back around to how much HE is suffering, how much worse HE has it in life (so who the hell are you to dare complain?), so I once again back down, shut up, shut off, and shudder that night when he tries to get close to me in bed.
> 
> Yes, I know I'm supposed to tell him how I feel. But decades of how much worse HE has it has conditioned me to just give up and not start anything, lest I get an hour or two of telling me why I have it better than him.
> 
> If I'm not mistaken, this is what Mrs. Grid has been dealing with. Even ONE instance of this can have a woman wondering what just happened and - more importantly - what did *I *do wrong? Because that's what most women do: blame themselves. And once you blame yourself, you find it hard to stand up for yourself.
> 
> No mistaking, she did wrong by falling in love with someone else. I believe that she only had sex once and that powerful act broke the fantasy for her that it was wrong, what she was doing. But to - because she told her H - have her H suddenly turn into a clingy, grabby, schmoopy guy, when she's already fallen out of love with him over the years of pushing, and then found someone else who does NOT berate her, push her, belittle her, verbally push her into a corner just so he can 'win'...it's not hard to see why she doesn't want him touching her. She stopped wanting that a long time ago.


I agree completely. The point of the question was to hear it from Grid's perspective, because it's indicative of the dynamic of the marriage. 

And perhaps I'm too cynical but I've always believed that people show you who they are when they think you're not looking or they think there are no consequences, so if I was his wife I'd think he was a huge phony. He showed who he was when he didn't realize there were consequences, or at least consequences that mattered to him. I realize that things aren't always so black and white and his behavior doesn't mean he doesn't care, but perception is reality and to her that is what it means. The fact is that while I think grid is a very likeable guy who would bend over for his family he's also shown himself to be a controlling, overbearing bully. By his own admission his wife repeatedly told him she was unhappy and he blew it off, it literally took her fvcking and falling in love with someone else for him to hear anything she said. Why? The conventional answer is that men just don't speak the same language but in my mind that's a copout. When your spouse tells you it ain't working for them what gives you the right to assume it's no big deal? 

Sihe probably did want affection early on but as she didn't get it she stopped and then the thought became repulsive. 

This marriage has been broken a long time, if it was ever well. It certainly suited grid's needs but I wonder if there was ever a time when it worked for mrs. Grid? 

Mrs grid will see all of his efforts right now as an effort to save his own world and rear end. That is the ultimate hurdle he's facing.

Not so different from a woman who denies sex and her hb detaches and loses attraction, then can't get it back once she "gets it". Yet somehow that imguy is understood.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## gridcom

lifeistooshort said:


> I agree completely. The point of the question was to hear it from Grid's perspective, because it's indicative of the dynamic of the marriage.
> 
> And perhaps I'm too cynical but I've always believed that people show you who they are when they think you're not looking or they think there are no consequences, so if I was his wife I'd think he was a huge phony. He showed who he was when he didn't realize there were consequences, or at least consequences that mattered to him. I realize that things aren't always so black and white and his behavior doesn't mean he doesn't care, but perception is reality and to her that is what it means. The fact is that while I think grid is a very likeable guy who would bend over for his family he's also shown himself to be a controlling, overbearing bully. By his own admission his wife repeatedly told him she was unhappy and he blew it off, it literally took her fvcking and falling in love with someone else for him to hear anything she said. Why? The conventional answer is that men just don't speak the same language but in my mind that's a copout. When your spouse tells you it ain't working for them what gives you the right to assume it's no big deal?
> 
> Sihe probably did want affection early on but as she didn't get it she stopped and then the thought became repulsive.
> 
> This marriage has been broken a long time, if it was ever well. It certainly suited grid's needs but I wonder if there was ever a time when it worked for mrs. Grid?
> 
> Mrs grid will see all of his efforts right now as an effort to save his own world and rear end. That is the ultimate hurdle he's facing.
> 
> Not so different from a woman who denies sex and her hb detaches and loses attraction, then can't get it back once she "gets it". Yet somehow that imguy is understood.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, honestly, it sounds like I've lost/blown any chance at creating a good marriage with this woman so I shouldn't even bother. Seems today that is the universal opinion here.


----------



## jld

gridcom said:


> Well, honestly, it sounds like I've lost/blown any chance at creating a good marriage with this woman so I shouldn't even bother. Seems today that is the universal opinion here.


Ignore that feeling. Reset your mind. This can work, and you can make it happen.


----------



## TeddieG

gridcom said:


> For clarity, we've seen her 3X now. I chose her because she was 1-female 2-christian 3- slightly older than us 4- soft spoken and 5- in our benefits network (a thin lot)
> 
> I think it's also worth mentioning that now 2 MC's have focused on me, my IC focuses on me (well, duh), her IC apparently (from what my wife says) told my wife she needed to leave me, the woman at my wife's church who is trying to help both of us is more focused on what I can be doing as opposed to focusing on her.
> 
> My point, several pages ago, was that my wife claims she is committed to the process and I want to know what a healthy definition of that is, because I dont think she is. I think she is committed in her mind and heart to thinking about the "love" that she's "lost" and she knows it and thus, she's not committed to the process.


Basically you're wanting to know why the two proposals on the table are, 1) Grid needs to fix himself so we can fix this marriage, or 2) Mrs. Grid just needs to decide to go. I can see why you would be frustrated. No one is addressing Mrs. Grid's issues that left her unable or unwilling to call you out when you were aggressive, and why she chose to cheat. 

I get that, and can see why you're frustrated.


----------



## jld

I think your counselors feel like they need to pull your wife back from the edge, grid. Addressing her issues will come later.

You are the stronger partner right now, so they are relying on you to temporarily man the boat, so to speak. It will not always be so one-sided, though.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

gridcom said:


> I asked about being affectionate. She said it's because I was not very affectionate before this all happened, so it feels insincere and forced. It's not, but that's how she feels.


Fair enough grid.

I'm not going to tell you what to do about your marriage. Others with experience here can do that.

But I can teach you something. "Affectionate" and "attention" and "closeness" and words like that are code. Most women NEVER get that those words have no practical meaning to a guy and we can't act upon them.

Here's what you DO and you will get what' women are after. You can do this now and not compromise your position and not push her away. You can do this even if you want D.

It's noting more than a series of actions similar to priming a new sales prospect.

With a sales prospect you profile them. Kids? Wife? Mistress? Do they like steak or a burger? Or are they a salad guy? College $$ stress? New house? Underwater mortgage? Are they impressed with status symbols, cars, clothes? Bro they like titles in business? Or are they NPR recyclers wearing Birkenstocks? Do they hate, love or feel "meh" about sports? Have a favorite team? On and on...

Once you have then profiled by asking probing questions, observing their actions, speech, eyes, movements, reactions, desktop (photos?), then you can talk to them; relate to them; communicate with them.

You find a common interest and talk about it. Ask their opinion. Listen and respond. You don't have to agree... But when you disagree you do it to get your thoughts out - not to win but to sway or be interesting. They start to like you - after all you seem like an extension of their ideas and thoughts.

You find areas with no commonality. And you ask and listen. You show that you want to get their thoughts and learn something. This strokes their ego and makes them feel good about themselves.

You try to pull them in - to you and to your thoughts. You go to them and let them know where they are leading the discussion.

You ask if something is a problem - now you know about them and what they care about. You can directly ask or be vague. If you've built trust you can say "based on what you know about me/my company, is there anything I/we do that could help you solve a problem?" Or "it sounds like xxx area might be taking too much time / not be working out / might be too costly. Is this a problem?" And then listen. And ask - either way - "well can I have Jim/someone call you and see if there is a way we can help?"

There is no touching. No "ask". Listening and wanting to know more. Looking in their eyes. Waiting for their opinion. Pausing and reflecting. Even if you disagree... you might bite your tongue and let it go if it's still a valid opinion.

This is all women want. In a sales process it sounds manipulative. But I know many sales guys that genuinely like people and do this naturally. They bond then slap backs and grin and say "let's shoot a round of golf!" Or pull out photos of their own kids.

Women typically do this naturally too.

Women dig this sh*t and brother this will ensnarl you too. Because they're eyes will light up and they will spill and look at you with anticipation. for THEIR red meat which is thoughts and experiences and what you did.

So the action plan is:

When she texts "hi" you actually STOP the battle you're doing at work, walk out of the meeting and respond. "Wow rough meeting - guy is a db. Really glad you texted - it's good to hear from you. Are you feeling better? (Assuming she was tired or anxious or on her period this a.m.)

When she calls you STOP and see if she's ok. Is something bothering her and she needs to vent? Hear a kind word? Want to make plans? Upset with you?

When you do ANYTHING you make a mental note. "Ate lunch with bob; had salad but it didn't have enough meet. His kid is going to college in the fall. And I'm not sure he's still with Ann". Guys always discard this stuff as drivel but it's GOLD baby! Toss it out when you get home.

This is you learning about what makes her tick and sharing your "feelings" (remember the db? The salad? The friend who may have a Ricky relationship?). Women assume men also care about this and they would emote over it.

I know this sounds cynical but that's because it is step by step guide on what to DO. Do it and you'll get good at it and enjoy it


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> Well, honestly, it sounds like I've lost/blown any chance at creating a good marriage with this woman so I shouldn't even bother. Seems today that is the universal opinion here.


No Grid. No victim chair for you. 

Our advice is for you to focus on yourself. 

This is not giving up on your marriage.


----------



## Anon Pink

jld said:


> AP, you know the high esteem I have for your advice. You are truly a TAM treasure, and we are privileged that you are here.
> 
> You and I both love dominant men.  We love the secure feeling male dominance brings. And your advice above may be exactly what grid needs to do.
> 
> I feel somewhat nervous about it, myself. Dug and I once had a time when I was so upset with him I could not speak. I felt disrespected and frightened by something he had done.
> 
> What I needed was for him to gently ask me what was wrong, and then kindly but patiently give me time to tell him, if he could not come up with it himself.
> 
> But he did not do that. He insisted on pulling me to him and lying beside me, massaging me for about an hour.
> 
> Dug, at 6'2", 200 lbs, is much bigger than I am. I am not in a position to physically resist him. But I felt even more disrespected and alienated by what I perceived at his physical mastery of me, and my perceived inability to escape.
> 
> It is a long story, but the tension was eventually resolved through talking, and through Dug's doing many of the things I have advised to grid.
> 
> Again, your advice may be exactly what will work for Mrs. Grid. I trust grid to be the judge of that. But he may want to consider my concern for caution, too.



JLD, I can totally see how my suggestion would not at all fit for you or someone like you. You're a person who wears her heart on her sleeve and absolutely must feel safe and cherished above all. Without feeling safe and cherished you shut down and turn away and won't come back until safety has returned. And it's on him to bring that safety back. Since you're a naturally open honest person, you don't play games and it's not too difficult to decode you. My suggestion would make you feel challenged and unsafe. It wouldn't work at all for you.

I see grid's wife as being kinda closer to me. Italian blood makes us prone to.... We think it we say it! Piss us off and you will know about it! But quick to anger generally mean quick to forgive, if you okay your cards right. If she's like me, she doubts him but wants him to prove it and she will challenge him every step of the way until she starts to believe it, and maybe even afterward too.

Turnera keeps her feelings inside and each cut kills her a little bit more. Her H is also a bully and a dumb bully at that. He doesn't even see how hurt she is and that hurts even worse than the original hurt. Now she can't even trust him with showing him she's hurt. That's why she has to leave the room to cry. Showing him her weakness, crying, is like waving a red flag at a bull. He'll go on the attack to prove her tears aren't his fault. What I suggested might work for Turnera but only if he starts to recognize when she is hurt. Until then she will be too afraid to show him or believe him, and also too afraid to tell him to "get the fvck off me!" Which is totally what she should be doing!

LisIsTooShort is kinda like me in that she says what's on her mind but you only get so many chances to hear. Once she's cut him off, he is off! He's going to have to move mountains to demonstrate he is a changed man. What I suggested would only work for LITS if he is obviously and remarkably not engaging in the over bearing, bullying behavior that got him here in the first place.

That's my opinion anyway.


----------



## LongWalk

Not true, Grid.

But you cannot chase your wife into loving you again. If your wife believes you are a phony who merely wants her to bend to his will, how will acting like a husband be credible?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Anon Pink

TeddieG said:


> Basically you're wanting to know why the two proposals on the table are, 1) Grid needs to fix himself so we can fix this marriage, or 2) Mrs. Grid just needs to decide to go. I can see why you would be frustrated. No one is addressing Mrs. Grid's issues that left *her unable or unwilling to call you out when you were aggressive,* and why she chose to cheat.
> 
> Fair enough in my book.


Grid admitted that she told him many times but since it was in the heat of an argument he ignored it thinking she was just firing blanks to piss him off.

This doesn't explain or address why she chose to cheat. It only explains why she came to an emotional emptiness that made cheating an attractive alternative to remaining emotionally empty and devoid of a close personal bond with someone important.


----------



## Evinrude58

lifeistooshort said:


> If it's not forced then why wasn't it there before?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hysterical bonding, just like every other betrayed spouse does.


----------



## jld

Anon Pink said:


> JLD, I can totally see how my suggestion would not at all fit for you or someone like you. You're a person who wears her heart on her sleeve and absolutely must feel safe and cherished above all. Without feeling safe and cherished you shut down and turn away and won't come back until safety has returned. And it's on him to bring that safety back. Since you're a naturally open honest person, you don't play games and it's not too difficult to decode you. My suggestion would make you feel challenged and unsafe. It wouldn't work at all for you.
> 
> I see grid's wife as being kinda closer to me. Italian blood makes us prone to.... We think it we say it! Piss us off and you will know about it! But quick to anger generally mean quick to forgive, if you okay your cards right. If she's like me, she doubts him but wants him to prove it and she will challenge him every step of the way until she starts to believe it, and maybe even afterward too.
> 
> Turnera keeps her feelings inside and each cut kills her a little bit more. Her H is also a bully and a dumb bully at that. He doesn't even see how hurt she is and that hurts even worse than the original hurt. Now she can't even trust him with showing him she's hurt. That's why she has to leave the room to cry. Showing him her weakness, crying, is like waving a red flag at a bull. He'll go on the attack to prove her tears aren't his fault. What I suggested might work for Turnera but only if he starts to recognize when she is hurt. Until then she will be too afraid to show him or believe him, and also too afraid to tell him to "get the fvck off me!" Which is totally what she should be doing!
> 
> LisIsTooShort is kinda like me in that she says what's on her mind but you only get so many chances to hear. Once she's cut him off, he is off! He's going to have to move mountains to demonstrate he is a changed man. What I suggested would only work for LITS if he is obviously and remarkably not engaging in the over bearing, bullying behavior that got him here in the first place.
> 
> That's my opinion anyway.


And, as always, a fine opinion it is. 

If your Italian wife is anywhere near the fine woman AP is, you are lucky to have her, grid! She is worth fighting for!!


----------



## ButtPunch

cbnero said:


> no kidding! I feel like we're all being punked and this is just the ultimate troll post.
> 
> Otherwise how can one guy come here, ask for help, and then do the opposite of everything he's told? I'm ready to give up on it. Like i said before, he could have skipped tam altogether and arrived to this point all on his own. I know this because i did it (pre tam). I mean literally almost the identical. It's painful to watch 3rd person. I wish i had tam at grids stage, and here he is just flushing it all down the drain. Why be here if you aren't going to follow any advice other than the stuff that mirrors your own incorrect instincts? Your instincts and behavior got you to this point. Amplifying and theorizing it all day and mindreadng /manipulating your stbx won't help. You need a new plan grid. Wake up!
> 
> You wife hates you. Marriage is over and dead. She is lying and leading you on until she can leave your sorry a$$. You are buying your head in the sand and playing fantasy with a bunch of inexperienced eat pray love online meanwhile your chance of reconciliation just keeps getting smaller. Nut up man!


best post ever

nut up man!


----------



## Evinrude58

Anon Pink said:


> EXACTLY!!!!!!
> 
> Grid, continue the affection and when you sense her stiffening up, tell her you regret not being affectionate before and whether she wants your affection or not, you're going to continue to show her your affectionate feeling for her. Ask her to tell you what she's feeling when she stiffens up.
> 
> Address the elephant in the room. Be strong enough to hear her, wise enough to separate reality from fantasy, and soft enough to empathize with her.
> 
> "You just stiffened up, what going through your mind about me running my hands down your arms?"
> 
> "You never did that before and it feels fake. Like you're trying to be this nice guy all of a sudden. I don't believe it."
> 
> "You don't feel my affection represents my true feelings because I was too self absorbed to show it before. I don't know how to convince you this isn't fake or forced, but I'm not going to stop doing something I should have been doing all along."
> 
> "But I want you to stop! I don't want your affection!"
> 
> "I know you want me to stop because you don't want to feel my affection. But we are still living together as husband and wife, still sleeping together and still parenting together and until all of that stops I will continue to show you how I feel about you especially because I should have been doing this all along."
> 
> "God, you're so pig headed!"
> 
> "Yes but I'm your pig headed husband who loves you and will no longer hold back showing it."
> End of discussion, either leave the room or change the topic.
> 
> Grid, I think you should continue to show affection and follow the type of dialogue above because it demonstrates strength. A man who is as you've described yourself *can* be seen as a strong man, and I think your wife was originally attracted to this. You want to capitalize on what attracted her to you in the first place and keep doing that, or doing it more.


Sadly, only in fantasyland does this actually work. I wish it would, as would lots of other betrayed spouses.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Evinrude58 said:


> lifeistooshort said:
> 
> 
> 
> If it's not forced then why wasn't it there before?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> 
> 
> Hysterical bonding, just like every other betrayed spouse does.
Click to expand...

Except for the BS not on TAM that immediately put a fork in their marriage when their spouse says it's over by taking their affection elsewhere. Which, frankly, probably happens way more often than most TAM people would fathom.


----------



## turnera

gridcom said:


> Well, honestly, it sounds like I've lost/blown any chance at creating a good marriage with this woman so I shouldn't even bother. Seems today that is the universal opinion here.


Not necessarily. Just understand that - from everything I've read or experienced - women take a LONG time to come back around. IMO, it's out of fear, being the 'weaker sex,' women are just more subconsciously hesitant to trust that a change is permanent. I've seen many men come here and say 'men are simple creatures; we just want to enjoy life, enjoy our wife, enjoy our family, and not be burdened with stress.' But I don't think women are like that; I think of them like cats, who are always on guard for danger, and of men like dogs, who are more fearless and gregarious and just want to enjoy things. 

She loved you once. She might again, IF you two can come to an agreement about past resentments and IF she can come to a place where she acknowledges the horrible wrong she did to you. And I don't even think she needs to do that for YOU, as you seem willing to take her back; she needs to do it for HER, so she can hit her rock bottom and come back a disgraced woman who wants a second chance. Hopefully, Retro will do that for you.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

BTW Grid... The only reason I figured out my wife was she was the polar opposite of me - literally in everything - when we randomly were assigned to each other in a college party.

But she was a doll, with big puppy dog eyes, and quiet (little did I know the truth!) and I had the hits for her. Exact same response from her.

I wanted to know everything about her. So I listened and talked. And I was truly interested. I still call her my "delicate flower" and she sheepishly smiles.

I treated her with kid gloves. Even now 3 decades later, my coworkers laugh their a55es off when I eviscerate some db at work, then turn around and talk with syrupy sweetness with my LOML (love of my life).

I didn't know this was a woman thing - I just assumed it was how W worked and she was so different from me I fully accepted this was "just her". It's only through the passage of time that I realize I was lucky and took for granted all communication should be different with women.

So never too late to learn,


----------



## cbnero

MC and Retro are a complete waste of your time. She doesn't want to talk to you, so why force her? I suppose you should keep going on this plan if you want to appear even more controlling in her eyes and push her further away.

"If you love it, set it free" is clichéd but effective advice. Your wife is dumb. She wants what she can't have. You have done everything short of hiring an airplane banner that says Pick Grid to fly outside her workplace. Though now you have presented yourself to her as having no confidence, no boundaries, and no self respect. So I'm not sure why she would pick you. It certainly won't be for the kids. I doubt the kids were on her mind while she rode the POSOM pole.

Maybe if you employed a new strategy and pulled away, she would have some time to really think about things. Or you can keep throwing it in her face and dragging her to various couples therapy until she leaves you or wait maybe she will magically love you again. Oh shoot that's right you already got served with divorce papers. I keep forgetting.


----------



## Anon Pink

No one has ever said the affair was his fault, or that the affair was justified!

What some of us have been saying is that the lousy state of the marriage was his fault. That his wife's discontent, and him not noticing, was his fault. That ignoring his wife's complaints and requests was his fault. That if he wants to save his marriage he needs to address his side of the street first is his responsibility. 

If, to you, that is equal to blaming him for the affair then you've missed the nuances and that's on you.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

gridcom said:


> Not sure what you mean.


Well, let's assume that your admitted relationship/communication issues drove your wife to become a heroin addict, or alcoholic, rather than a cheater.

If that was the case, would you go to an MC who ignored your wife's addiction? And only focused on communication strategies?

Of course not. A competent MC would insist that your wife get help for her problem, before even bothering with communication.

There's a dinosaur in the room that can't be ignored. That's where the focus should be, for now.

Infidelity. Substance abuse. Physical abuse.

They are all relationship killers. They have to be dealt with first, or the other stuff doesn't matter.

Edit: If you found an MC who blamed you for your wife's addiction, would you accept that blame?

Edit #2. I have yet to read the 5-6 pages since you asked this question


----------



## cbnero

Anon Pink said:


> No one has ever said the affair was his fault, or that the affair was justified!
> 
> What some of us have been saying is that the lousy state of the marriage was his fault. That his wife's discontent, and him not noticing, was his fault. That ignoring his wife's complaints and requests was his fault. That if he wants to save his marriage he needs to address his side of the street first is his responsibility.
> 
> If, to you, that is equal to blaming him for the affair then you've missed the nuances and that's on you.


I think I just threw up in my mouth a bit. He isn't responsible for her happiness. So, no, the lousy state of the marriage is NOT his fault. It's both their fault. Funny how all the faults of the BS suddenly appear and get magnified by 100 when the WS is having an affair. No one is perfect. Her having an affair has nothing to do with grid. She could have went to IC alone. She didn't. She chose to have an affair with POSOM. 

Definitely everyone has things to work on themselves to be a better person, father, son, wife, daughter, spouse, friend, etc... That's life.


----------



## turnera

Very true. One thing I've learned is that the state of my marriage is MY fault. For not speaking up for what I wanted and needed. Had I spoken up decades ago, things would have been entirely different.

Of course, my FOO never TAUGHT me how to speak up for what I wanted and needed, in fact they taught me it was my JOB not to speak up, and in fact was probably WHY I sought out such a dysfunctional husband, but that doesn't make it any less my fault for not pushing myself to improve and learn how to speak up.

fwiw, after reading what I wrote, I went and texted my H a note about why I was upset a few minutes ago. You know, to improve myself. 

He replied, thanking me for letting him know. And then telling me WHY he did it - bad experience with the store, his finger was cut, yada yada. Hair-pulling existence. He acknowledges that he hurt me, but has a ready, valid excuse for it, as his life was so much worse than mine at the time.

*sigh*


----------



## Anon Pink

cbnero said:


> I think I just threw up in my mouth a bit. He isn't responsible for her happiness. So, no, the lousy state of the marriage is NOT his fault. It's both their fault. Funny how all the faults of the BS suddenly appear and get magnified by 100 when the WS is having an affair. No one is perfect. Her having an affair has nothing to do with grid. She could have went to IC alone. She didn't. She chose to have an affair with POSOM.
> 
> Definitely everyone has things to work on themselves to be a better person, father, son, wife, daughter, spouse, friend, etc... That's life.



This is just more black and white thinking. You think because I point out grid's faults his wife is faultless? That would be incorrect.

When Mrs grid shows up I'll discuss her faults with her. It's pointless until then.


----------



## just got it 55

Anon Pink said:


> No one has ever said the affair was his fault, or that the affair was justified!
> 
> What some of us have been saying is that the lousy state of the marriage was his fault. That his wife's discontent, and him not noticing, was his fault. That ignoring his wife's complaints and requests was his fault. That if he wants to save his marriage he needs to address his side of the street first is his responsibility.
> 
> If, to you, that is equal to blaming him for the affair then you've missed the nuances and that's on you.



AP you know I value your advice her But PLEASE

Let's not pound the message that the "State of their M is "all Grids fault"

He needs some encouragement....He understands he fvcked up

Even before the A Mrs.Grid has some responsibility for the state of the M

I sure wish Mrs Grid were here to give her (honest) thoughts and perspective.

Grid..... It would appear that you will need a duel approach to R

But never never give up on yourself.

Make your changes you know you need ,That's all you can do.

Trust you gut always. If your not feeling it move on and heal.

Time here is a two sided knife.

Separate you finances and watch 

You are the only one that can judge to be affectionate 

It can help and hurt

So do it only when you feel she deserves (not the best choice of words) it.

55


----------



## bandit.45

My experience has been that once a woman decides she is done with a man she closes the door and it is done for good. 

Grid could discover the cure for AIDS and act like Fred Rogers towards his WW for the next five years and it won't make a bit of difference. She is done with him and he needs to accept it and move on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TheTruthHurts

bandit.45 said:


> My experience has been that once a woman decides she is done with a man she closes the door and it is done for good.
> 
> Grid could discover the cure for AIDS and act like Fred Rogers towards his WW for the next five years and it won't make a bit of difference. She is done with him and he needs to accept it and move on.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I tend to agree but also recognize that we actually know very little about Mrs. Grid. Lots of speculation but most is undoubtably wrong (it had to be unless she had 20 different personalities).

So who knows... 

What I'm pretty sure of is if either of them accepts what the other was serving up prior to her walking away to the OM, then they're a fool.

A completely new marriage would be needed with new attitudes, new empathy, new awareness, new adoration, new respect, new desire.

Grid seems capable of offering something new. What we've heard about Mrs grid implies she's not...


----------



## farsidejunky

just got it 55 said:


> AP you know I value your advice her But PLEASE
> 
> Let's not pound the message that the "State of their M is "all Grids fault"
> 
> He needs some encouragement....He understands he fvcked up
> 
> Even before the A Mrs.Grid has some responsibility for the state of the M
> 
> I sure wish Mrs Grid were here to give her (honest) thoughts and perspective.
> 
> Grid..... It would appear that you will need a duel approach to R
> 
> But never never give up on yourself.
> 
> Make your changes you know you need ,That's all you can do.
> 
> Trust you gut always. If your not feeling it move on and heal.
> 
> Time here is a two sided knife.
> 
> Separate you finances and watch
> 
> You are the only one that can judge to be affectionate
> 
> It can help and hurt
> 
> So do it only when you feel she deserves (not the best choice of words) it.
> 
> 55


This is it in a nutshell, brother. Remember to control that which you can, and to let go of that which you cannot.


----------



## lifeistooshort

cbnero said:


> I think I just threw up in my mouth a bit. He isn't responsible for her happiness. So, no, the lousy state of the marriage is NOT his fault. It's both their fault. Funny how all the faults of the BS suddenly appear and get magnified by 100 when the WS is having an affair. No one is perfect. Her having an affair has nothing to do with grid. She could have went to IC alone. She didn't. She chose to have an affair with POSOM.
> 
> Definitely everyone has things to work on themselves to be a better person, father, son, wife, daughter, spouse, friend, etc... That's life.


So by that logic I should cut off sex and declare that my hb's unhappiness is his problem. 

Wrong. Anytime you mistreat your spouse you become responsible for at least a chunk of their unhappiness.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

gridcom said:


> Well, honestly, it sounds like I've lost/blown any chance at creating a good marriage with this woman so I shouldn't even bother. Seems today that is the universal opinion here.


That does seem to be the message being conveyed by both camps doesn't it? This is why I said before to start detaching and let your wife be until Retrouville. I don't think the MC sessions you are currently attending are helping at all. Frankly I think they're doing more harm than good. I'm no expert but Retrouville sounds like some type of immersion therapy. If that is the case I think by not granting your wife the space she says she wants and by continuing to dredge up issues over and over again in MC you run the risk of burning your wife out before Retrouville. Instead of seeing it as a possible new path back to happiness she is going to see it as just more of the same. Of course it's just my opinion.


----------



## lifeistooshort

turnera said:


> Not necessarily. Just understand that - from everything I've read or experienced - women take a LONG time to come back around. IMO, it's out of fear, being the 'weaker sex,' women are just more subconsciously hesitant to trust that a change is permanent. I've seen many men come here and say 'men are simple creatures; we just want to enjoy life, enjoy our wife, enjoy our family, and not be burdened with stress.' But I don't think women are like that; I think of them like cats, who are always on guard for danger, and of men like dogs, who are more fearless and gregarious and just want to enjoy things.
> 
> She loved you once. She might again, IF you two can come to an agreement about past resentments and IF she can come to a place where she acknowledges the horrible wrong she did to you. And I don't even think she needs to do that for YOU, as you seem willing to take her back; she needs to do it for HER, so she can hit her rock bottom and come back a disgraced woman who wants a second chance. Hopefully, Retro will do that for you.



Correct. It is a long process even when successful so it will take a strong stomach to weather the hard road ahead. People desperate to save the marriage will be looking for immediate results but that likely won't happen. The storm must be weathered.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lifeistooshort

gridcom said:


> Well, honestly, it sounds like I've lost/blown any chance at creating a good marriage with this woman so I shouldn't even bother. Seems today that is the universal opinion here.


Not necessarily. .... see my response to turnera.

But the road will be long and hard and you will not see the immediate results you want. It will take a strong stomach, one which I believe you have.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cbnero

Anon Pink said:


> cbnero said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think I just threw up in my mouth a bit. He isn't responsible for her happiness. So, no, the lousy state of the marriage is NOT his fault. It's both their fault. Funny how all the faults of the BS suddenly appear and get magnified by 100 when the WS is having an affair. No one is perfect. Her having an affair has nothing to do with grid. She could have went to IC alone. She didn't. She chose to have an affair with POSOM.
> 
> Definitely everyone has things to work on themselves to be a better person, father, son, wife, daughter, spouse, friend, etc... That's life.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is just more black and white thinking. You think because I point out grid's faults his wife is faultless? That would be incorrect.
> 
> When Mrs grid shows up I'll discuss her faults with her. It's pointless until then.
Click to expand...

*ANON said: What some of us have been saying is that the lousy state of the marriage was his fault.
*
But I'm black and white? This is like conversing with the ayatollah! Lol! I get accused of doing what you just did! Haha grid if you ever miss talking to your stbx you can come here there is plenty of the same mindset to be found.

Good grief this whole thread should just be deleted from TAM. Or at least shut down for new posts. It needs to survive as a reference for any future posters that start listening to mind reading theorists.

Grid - grow a pair. You aren't to blame for your wife cheating. You are to blame for letting the EPLers (eat pray love) with zero (as in none) experience commandeer your thread. Lol its just the worst advice ever! 

That's all for me folks. Good luck grid - you are screwed!


----------



## bfree

Anon Pink said:


> This is just more black and white thinking. You think because I point out grid's faults his wife is faultless? That would be incorrect.
> 
> When Mrs grid shows up I'll discuss her faults with her. It's pointless until then.


Ummm, Anon, men do generally see things in black and white. It takes an awful lot to get us to see colors. The way my wife did it was with fingerpaints. I'll let your imagination run with that for a while.


----------



## ButtPunch

lifeistooshort said:


> So by that logic I should cut off sex and declare that my hb's unhappiness is his problem.
> 
> Wrong. Anytime you mistreat your spouse you become responsible for at least a chunk of their unhappiness.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not anymore wrong than the person who accepts the mistreatment. Victimhood.


We are responsible for our own happiness.


----------



## Keepin-my-head-up

cbnero said:


> No kidding! I feel like we're all being punked and this is just the ultimate troll post.
> 
> Otherwise how can one guy come here, ask for help, and then do the opposite of everything he's told? I'm ready to give up on it. Like I said before, he could have skipped TAM altogether and arrived to this point all on his own. I know this because I did it (pre TAM). I mean literally almost the identical. It's painful to watch 3rd person. I wish I had TAM at grids stage, and here he is just flushing it all down the drain. Why be here if you aren't going to follow any advice other than the stuff that mirrors your own incorrect instincts? Your instincts and behavior got you to this point. Amplifying and theorizing it all day and mindreadng /manipulating your stbx won't help. You need a new plan grid. Wake up!
> 
> You wife hates you. Marriage is over and dead. She is lying and leading you on until she can leave your sorry a$$. You are buying your head in the sand and playing fantasy with a bunch of inexperienced Eat Pray Love online meanwhile your chance of reconciliation just keeps getting smaller. Nut up man!


So funny.
I thought it might have been a troll post also.
Actually, I thought it might be a person who is promoting Rville.
That they would show how crappy their marriage is and how one foot out the door their spouse is, then boom!
After Rville everything is hunky dory.
But after reading for awhile, this is just a guy who is a lot like other guys.
Their world collapses and changes and they don't know how to prevent it.
So, they take steps that they think will work based on what they know of their significant other.
That is all well and good, I did that, you did that, many have as well.
But when the legal stuff gets into play, that is the REAL life altering sh!+! 
That is because you actually have a say and a fight where that is concerned.
When a spouse wants to leave, that is their choice.
You can say you want to soldier on and take one for the team all you want but it is up to her.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Just think how far along Grid would be if he had taken the advice given on page 1:

180, and detach


----------



## Anon Pink

bfree said:


> Ummm, Anon, men do generally see things in black and white. It takes an awful lot to get us to see colors. The way my wife did it was with fingerpaints. I'll let your imagination run with that for a while.


Oh behave! :grin2:

This is a subtle and indirect form of humor flirt. It acknowledges the subtle sexual over tone in bfree's post (also known as a double entendres) and responds with the same subtle sexual over tone or double entendre. Yet neither post in ANY way is invitation to take said subtle sexual over tone and turn it into something other than humor. 

By making this explanation I am directly explaining in easy to understand terms that I understand the meaning of both bfree's post and my post to be based on humor and not at all based on any personal feelings being revealed other than the fact we do not dislike each other

When I say we do not dislike each other that again doesn't mean there is some deeper meaning or ...oh forget it! Figure it out yourself!

Finger painting takes way too much time!


----------



## bfree

Anon, LOL!

Remember taking your time makes it all worth it.


----------



## LongWalk

gridcom said:


> Well, honestly, it sounds like I've lost/blown any chance at creating a good marriage with this woman so I shouldn't even bother. Seems today that is the universal opinion here.


Grid, your thread has become a sort of love letter to your wife. If she read the above passage, she might have an entirely different reaction to the text than she would have if you stated this to her.

What people do and how they do it does make a difference. A good plan executed poorly can fail. A bad plan can succeed by accident. But in general pouring more and more energy and emotions into something that is failing is throwing good money after bad.

Your wife doesn't want sex and affection from you because she feels it is a misplaced investment of energy and emotion. I think jld, lifeistooshort and anonpink are not wrong in advising you to fight on. But you need to play smart.

Nothing forbids you from continuing to love your wife. Her impression of you is now so tainted that she cannot respond positively to your efforts. So, don't expend yourself fruitlessly. Back off listen and observe. You should not act against your own interests. Your wife will just see this a weakness. As BP says women are not attracted to weak men.

This does not mean being vindictive or spiteful.


----------



## Ms. GP

I have been following your thread for a while, but as a fww I have been hesitant to post. I'm not going to give you any advice but I would like to share a little bit of my story with you. I think as a former WS, I do have a little bit of a unique perspective on all this. FYI this is the first infidelity threads I have posted on. I hope I am able to help and not cause further pain. That is my objective.

My affair was over 3 years ago and it is still a great source of pain, remorse, and shame for me. It happened for four reasons in no particular order. 1. Unresolved foo issues 2. A raging daily prescription drug habit 3. Low self esteem 4. Poor boundaries on my part. None of these issues were caused by my marriage. Nor were they any fault of my husband. They were my issues and mine alone to address. I did through a lot of IC, MC, and actively working a program of recovery.

My husband also did IC and MC. The point I'm trying to make is we both cleaned up our sides of the street.

I think you should be commended for going to IC, MC, and retro. Ultimately the only thing you can do is clean up your side of the street. It takes a strong person to look at themselves after such a huge betrayal. Your marriage may not survive, but hopefully you will be able to take your new set of tools you have gained to have a healthy new relationship. I can't tell you how many times I have seen on TAM a person divorce quickly, and their next relationship was just as unhealthy. In any relationshiip you have, the common denominator is always you.

If your wife has truly checked out, and willing to jump headfirst into this new relationship, I can just about guarantee it will not be a healthy one. Healthy people don't cheat on their spouses. Healthy people also don't get romantically involved with married people. It is a perfect storm for disaster that you have no control over.

Keep working on yourself. I know in the long run it will pay off. I'm rooting for you!!


----------



## Thundarr

ThreeStrikes said:


> Just think how far along Grid would be if he had taken the advice given on page 1:
> 
> 180, and detach


Lol, but you don't understand ThreeStrikes. We've learned so much since page one. I'm stuck to my screen wondering how many new and angles haven't been covered.


----------



## bfree

Mrs gp, I know we've been instructed to only reply to the OP but I'm going to risk a banning. Thank you for posting. Thoughts, ideas and feelings from your perspective is sorely lacking here. It took great courage to venture into these turbulent waters. Please keep posting when and where you feel comfortable.


----------



## just got it 55

bfree said:


> Mrs gp, I know we've been instructed to only reply to the OP but I'm going to risk a banning. Thank you for posting. Thoughts, ideas and feelings from your perspective is sorely lacking here. It took great courage to venture into these turbulent waters. Please keep posting when and where you feel comfortable.


If bfree gets banned then an me too

Nice post Mrs Gp

55


----------



## LongWalk

Grid,

This weekend I travelled to the capital city of a Nordic country for work. The job ended on Sunday evening and my flight home to the country I live in, also Nordic, was not until Monday. So I had arranged to spend the night at an old friend's place. He had, I discovered on Facebook, recently married OW. Yes, my friend cheated on his first wife. She was a professional actress in a prestigious theater. My friend was a television producer. So they were both successful professionals. When my friend turned 50 ten years ago, his first wife arranged a terrific party. It was large and she made a beautiful statement of affection for her then husband, my friend the cheater.

My friend had influence over the careers of young junior colleagues, including many attractive women, some of whom would have slept with him to further their careers. My friend was careful not to do this, he told me. I thought that was pretty professional of him. After all, the women working in TV tend to be good looking and have engaging personalities.

Once after an open water swimming race as he, another friend and I were driving through countryside we started talking about marriage. The other friend, an IT service executive for a large and cruel software giant, had married a Scandinavian flight attendant. Now that they had kids, he was getting no pvssy. He mentioned a beautiful young woman who was a junior member of his team. She was flirtatious and he said that he understood why people cheated. The friend married to the actress said that his wife had told him that he could cheat but never to reveal it to her. She didn't want to know. My friend did not say whether he had acted on this permission.

Well, he had or did and it was a long term affair. When his wife found out, it had been going 8 to 10 years (I forget the details). She divorced him immediately. Neither of my friends two sons were happy that their dad had cheated on their mom. One of his sons was very successful in university, but my friend was worried that he was too promiscuous. His son had played basketball and had an easy smile and ready wit on top of an air of experience. He was banging and breaking the heart of young woman after young woman just because he could. My friend thought this cruel habit would harm his character. But being a cheater he lacked authority to guide his son.

His younger son took his parents divorce even worse and my friend suffered even greater anxieties about the boy who was in his mid teens and having trouble with school. Again his parental role was fvcked because he was a divorced cheater dad.

So this my friend had completely failed hall pass challenge that was really a shyt test.

A few years ago he brought OW over on a trip and we all went out to a museum to walk around chat, drink coffee, etc. I was not so impressed with OW. She was not a patch on his first wife. We became Facebook friends I did not see them for a couple years until last Sunday. Before she came home from the office (going to the office on Sunday night? WTF?), my friend and I had a chance to catch up. He said:

"Once I told XXX (OW) that I was too depressed and that she had better leave me to save herself. So, she went back to her previous partner. Through my sons I tried to speak with my ex wife to see if we could negotiate something [i.e., reconciliation] but she refused to reply. Later I finally manage to ask her why she did even give us a chance to talk. It turned out that she expected me to crawl on my knees, literally, that is what she said."

He fell silent. After my TAM education, I knew that he should crawled on his knees. That is the correct procedure for remorseful cheater. He could not do it though. He and OW got back together and recently married.

A short while later his new wife came home. She was very stressed by work. We chatted until midnight and then called it a day. The next morning at breakfast my friend had to read his wife's report to "fix the grammar and stylistic mistakes". She looked pleased and reassured that he had ensured the quality of her work.

After being on TAM I could see that this was co-dependency. She had a mass of FOO issues and my friend was a fixer. He role in this unhealthy marriage is to forever run around adjusting the universe for his needy messed up second wife. Of course, for reason of tact I could not explain why he had turned his life into a stressful hell, trying to please this OW who had replaced his nicer first wife. I never would have understood the dynamics, had I not read about this sort of cheating on TAM.

All marriages have some problems and conflicts, but adultery just makes thing far worse.

Right now due your co-dependency, you are trying to rescue your WW from the consequences of her own bad choices. This is the role of enabler. Sadly, the more you try to repair your marriage by failing her shyt tests, the more she will mess with your head. 

Our understanding of your wife's character is incomplete. I wonder if, as you have related it, she had a higher sex ranking and you lucked out in winning her as opposite sex life partner. Did she ever complain that she married below herself? If she did choose you, why was that? Is is because she has co-dependency issues and was attracted to you because she expected you to serve as the enabler? If so, this would explain why Ms GP emphasized the need for MC, IC, etc.

If you do divorce, do you expect your wife to be cooperative ex or a troublesome one?

Is going to be calling you at 12:20 on Sunday night asking you to put snow tires on her car? Will she want to confide in you regarding her future partner(s) shortcomings?


----------



## TeddieG

threestrikes said:


> well, let's assume that your admitted relationship/communication issues drove your wife to become a heroin addict, or alcoholic, rather than a cheater.
> 
> If that was the case, would you go to an mc who ignored your wife's addiction? And only focused on communication strategies?
> 
> Of course not. A competent mc would insist that your wife get help for her problem, before even bothering with communication.
> 
> There's a dinosaur in the room that can't be ignored. That's where the focus should be, for now.
> 
> Infidelity. Substance abuse. Physical abuse.
> 
> They are all relationship killers. They have to be dealt with first, or the other stuff doesn't matter.
> 
> Edit: If you found an mc who blamed you for your wife's addiction, would you accept that blame?
> 
> Edit #2. I have yet to read the 5-6 pages since you asked this question


boom!!


----------



## TeddieG

just got it 55 said:


> *He needs some encouragement....He understands he fvcked up
> *
> *Even before the A Mrs.Grid has some responsibility for the state of the M*
> 
> 
> But never never give up on yourself.
> 
> Make your changes you know you need ,That's all you can do.
> 
> Trust your gut always. If your not feeling it move on and heal.
> 
> You are the only one that can judge to be affectionate
> 
> It can help and hurt
> 
> 
> 
> 55


THIS!!! :iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

Can we cut the man some slack? I've been trying to figure out a way to suggest it might be time to lighten up a little and give the man some breathing room. I agree with 55.


----------



## Anon Pink

Grid, I am sorry if I've been too hard ass on you. Although I don't think I have been, it's just as possible my brand of getting to the meat of the issue comes off as being too tough on you.

I think one of the difficulties is that each time I, or anyone else, points out something on your side of the street there are several people who will post that you are blameless, faultless and should be nominated for sainthood.

Like I said in several posts now, you have owned your side of the street and I find that damned impressive!


----------



## gridcom

LongWalk said:


> Grid,
> 
> This weekend I travelled to the capital city of a Nordic country for work. The job ended on Sunday evening and my flight home to the country I live in, also Nordic, was not until Monday. So I had arranged to spend the night at an old friend's place. He had, I discovered on Facebook, recently married OW. Yes, my friend cheated on his first wife. She was a professional actress in a prestigious theater. My friend was a television producer. So they were both successful professionals. When my friend turned 50 ten years ago, his first wife arranged a terrific party. It was large and she made a beautiful statement of affection for her then husband, my friend the cheater.
> 
> My friend had influence over the careers of young junior colleagues, including many attractive women, some of whom would have slept with him to further their careers. My friend was careful not to do this, he told me. I thought that was pretty professional of him. After all, the women working in TV tend to be good looking and have engaging personalities.
> 
> Once after an open water swimming race as he, another friend and I were driving through countryside we started talking about marriage. The other friend, an IT service executive for a large and cruel software giant, had married a Scandinavian flight attendant. Now that they had kids, he was getting no pvssy. He mentioned a beautiful young woman who was a junior member of his team. She was flirtatious and he said that he understood why people cheated. The friend married to the actress said that his wife had told him that he could cheat but never to reveal it to her. She didn't want to know. My friend did not say whether he had acted on this permission.
> 
> Well, he had or did and it was a long term affair. When his wife found out, it had been going 8 to 10 years (I forget the details). She divorced him immediately. Neither of my friends two sons were happy that their dad had cheated on their mom. One of his sons was very successful in university, but my friend was worried that he was too promiscuous. His son had played basketball and had an easy smile and ready wit on top of an air of experience. He was banging and breaking the heart of young woman after young woman just because he could. My friend thought this cruel habit would harm his character. But being a cheater he lacked authority to guide his son.
> 
> His younger son took his parents divorce even worse and my friend suffered even greater anxieties about the boy who was in his mid teens and having trouble with school. Again his parental role was fvcked because he was a divorced cheater dad.
> 
> So this my friend had completely failed hall pass challenge that was really a shyt test.
> 
> A few years ago he brought OW over on a trip and we all went out to a museum to walk around chat, drink coffee, etc. I was not so impressed with OW. She was not a patch on his first wife. We became Facebook friends I did not see them for a couple years until last Sunday. Before she came home from the office (going to the office on Sunday night? WTF?), my friend and I had a chance to catch up. He said:
> 
> "Once I told XXX (OW) that I was too depressed and that she had better leave me to save herself. So, she went back to her previous partner. Through my sons I tried to speak with my ex wife to see if we could negotiate something [i.e., reconciliation] but she refused to reply. Later I finally manage to ask her why she did even give us a chance to talk. It turned out that she expected me to crawl on my knees, literally, that is what she said."
> 
> He fell silent. After my TAM education, I knew that he should crawled on his knees. That is the correct procedure for remorseful cheater. He could not do it though. He and OW got back together and recently married.
> 
> A short while later his new wife came home. She was very stressed by work. We chatted until midnight and then called it a day. The next morning at breakfast my friend had to read his wife's report to "fix the grammar and stylistic mistakes". She looked pleased and reassured that he had ensured the quality of her work.
> 
> After being on TAM I could see that this was co-dependency. She had a mass of FOO issues and my friend was a fixer. He role in this unhealthy marriage is to forever run around adjusting the universe for his needy messed up second wife. Of course, for reason of tact I could not explain why he had turned his life into a stressful hell, trying to please this OW who had replaced his nicer first wife. I never would have understood the dynamics, had I not read about this sort of cheating on TAM.
> 
> All marriages has some problems and conflicts, but adultery just makes thing far worse.
> 
> Right now due your co-dependency, you are trying to rescue your WW from the consequences of her own bad choices. This is the role of enabler. Sadly, the more you try to repair your marriage by failing her shyt tests, the more she will mess with your head.
> 
> Our understanding of your wife's character is incomplete. I wonder if, as you have related it, she had a higher sex ranking and you lucked out in winning her as opposite sex life partner. Did she ever complain that she married below herself? If she did choose you, why was that? Is is because she has co-dependency issues and was attracted to you because she expected you to serve as the enabler? If so, this would explain why Ms GP emphasized the need for MC, IC, etc.
> 
> If you do divorce, do you expect your wife to be cooperative ex or a troublesome one?
> 
> Is going to be calling you at 12:20 on Sunday night asking you to put snow tires on her car? Will she want to confide in you regarding her future partner(s) shortcomings?


This is a good post. I would like to answer this but I am kind of burned out on TAM right now, to be honest. The reality is I am in the same exact position I was in 4 months ago, except I have a pending divorce. 

A big part of me believes in the jld, Anon, LifeIsTooShort, etc way here. "Reconciliation With A Hardened Wife" I damn near read it every day. Soon, I'll be able to quote it without looking at it. 

Sadly, however, this approach is suited for a man trying to soften the heart of a woman who's heart isn't occupied by another person. In my specific case, my wife's heart is occupied by another person. And his day is surely coming. End Of Story. A lot of my frustration recently is because I am getting better, and better, at this approach but am not seeing anything in the way of success. I attribute much (but not all) of it to my wife still being deeply connected with another man.

And sadly, that is where people like ButtPunch for example come in. Guys who are screaming from a mountain top because they've been me, they can't stand to watch the same thing happen to another kind but flawed soul. It breaks their heart from a distance and they are powerless (again)

The realities of divorce are becoming more clear, more tangible. I can touch them now. They don't feel bad. It looks like relief. I want to love my wife. I want to make up for whatever it is I've done. I want to see my kids every day, every night. There's nothing I want more than to make it all work, but I'm sorry jld (& co) but it does take two to fix a marriage.

Certainly my wife has some valid reasons for feeling the way she does towards me. However, the husband I was is not nearly as bad as what I've painted here nor was I as bad as she's created it to be in her mind. My level of "husbandry" is lower because my wife is having a mid life crisis, she is obsessed with another man who made her feel the way I haven't in a long time, AND because it makes her feel less guilty if I was more of a villan than I actually was. But, what is getting lost in all of my "nice-ing her back" is that she is WRONG FOR WHAT SHE DID. SHE IS WRONG FOR FEELING THE WAY SHE DOES FOR SOMEONE ELSE. It was a complete annihilation of my soul, and recovery for me is a long way off. People arent supposed to do that to other people

It's not all black and white, and what I just wrote is fair and accurate. I have been quite hard on myself. I've created a monster here with repeatedly telling you all that all the sh^t that was present in this marriage before the affair was for me to hang on myself. And while that isn't without merit, the fact is my wife is both selfish and stubborn to a fault. We co-existed like this because, even with her stubbornness and selfishness, I loved her anyway. We'd fight, we'd disagree, I'd tell her to jump in a lake (with stronger words at times) and that'd be that. That I wasn't affectionate enough because I didn't see good examples of that as a child is also an issue.

All things I am confronting. All things I am getting to the bottom of. 
Meanwhile, my wife has comfortably gotten into the role of victim. 

If I had done the 180 on Day 3, this wouldn't have happened. hard to argue that point. Because there's reality and then there's the reality that you create when one "owns" the marriage and holds the keys to it's future. 

If my wife wasn't still emotionally connected to another person, I'd say that all of the things that I have done since D-Day would go noticed, if not reciprocated. However, I am fighting a battle I cannot win.

You will not be hearing from me again until after Retrouvaille. In fact, I am going to click the "X" and remove the tab from the top of my Safari screen. I really need to get out of here and get ready to face real life changes.

It's going to hurt. Today we spoke with the Mediator and it felt so wrong to even think about negotiating my children's futures. Two fvcking idiots who are emotionally all fvcked up deciding the fate of two innocent little girls who just want their parents to love each other and who just want to be happy with their family. They don't want to be raised by baby sitters and they don't want to do great things and come home from school and have nobody to share their excitement. It makes me sick to think about, but from this point on (for the time being) I need to let go of all of your hands and do it alone. I want to be insulated and focused and I'm also going to be selfish.

See ya.


----------



## cbnero

The first step is the hardest. And scariest. Kids will be ok. Some kids lose a parent or have no parents. Life has to go on. It does.

There are no guarantees in this life beyond death and taxes grid. 

At the end of the day, do I dislike jld or anon or tunera? No. We all want the same thing, the best for you. I am brutal to a fault but it's only because I care. I think you see that now. 

I would encourage you to not quit TAM. It's a long road and FYI it is far from over. Finally you see what I and others have been telling you. We don't know that it's too late. The good news is you have been beta for so long that doing a 180 will not only help you immensely but is your best chance for R if that's what you want. But you do need to listen and what you will hear will go against every instinct you have. If you can muster up the strength to try you will have plenty of support.


----------



## just got it 55

Grid I am a very emotional being (cried at the movie Rudy)

If only Mrs Grid read this post

I am a whimpering bag of sh!t right now

Go in peace

Find your path

Life your life

And love your babies

For details

Read my signature line

all the best

55


----------



## TeddieG

Anon Pink said:


> Grid, I am sorry if I've been too hard ass on you. Although I don't think I have been, it's just as possible my brand of getting to the meat of the issue comes off as being too tough on you.
> 
> I think one of the difficulties is that each time I, or anyone else, points out something on your side of the street there are several people who will post that you are blameless, faultless and should be nominated for sainthood.
> 
> Like I said in several posts now, you have owned your side of the street and I find that damned impressive!


Nice post. But hey, since you brought up nuance . . . :grin2:

I don't think anyone is saying that Grid is faultless or without blame or a saint. None of us are. I just think, and I believe a lot of others do too, that the choice to cheat is on the cheater. WhatEVER he did, he didn't MAKE her cheat. As my IC said one time, about my h, nobody put a gun to his head and made him stick his d!ck in crazy. 

Godspeed, Grid.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

gridcom said:


> It makes me sick to think about, but from this point on (for the time being) I need to let go of all of your hands and do it alone. I want to be insulated and focused and I'm also going to be selfish.
> 
> See ya.


 I am glad you are seeing through the morass. I hope you really take a break this time which includes NO READING OR VISITING. I honestly hope you prove all of us "angry haters" and "nefarious" posters wrong. I do enjoy being wrong in these cases.


----------



## farsidejunky

Take care, brother.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

now... Now the fun begins. Since grid has clicked the "x, I wonder how many pages of posts will accumulate in his absence. I bet at least 20 more. 

Kind of scary, ain't it TAM?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

cbnero said:


> I would encourage you to not quit TAM.


He didn't say he was quitting, just taking a break.



> *You will not be hearing from me again until after Retrouvaille. *In fact, I am going to click the "X" and remove the tab from the top of my Safari screen. I really need to get out of here and get ready to face real life changes.


 I think it is smart, there is too much agenda driven bias, plus black and white thinking from all sides now. Too many voices.


----------



## Keepin-my-head-up

Totally relate.
Mediation was emotional.
Negotiating time with kids and who will have say over medical and school decisions.
Who gets to have em on holidays and such...
How messed up is that?!
I remember just parking the car and sitting in it....
Well, bottom line is I get it,
I get the need for a break.
I truly hope things change for the better in Rville for you because your girls deserve it.

Aloha


----------



## Ms. GP

Wow! Grid that last post was heartbreaking to read. I am so sorry for your pain.

One thing I would like to say to Mrs Grid if she is still lurking. First of all I'm not here to judge you. I'm in no position to judge anybody. Trust me! But I would like to pass along some advice that was given to me when I was contemplating leaving my first marriage. I was 20 years old at the time and in a very dysfunctional marriage. I won't bore you with the details. My friend knew I was struggling and he shared with me that he and his wife had almost divorced, but they fully committed to fixing the marriage and were both really happy. He told me, "make a decision. You either in or your out. There's no shame in leaving, but you can't spend the rest of your life miserable." I knew as soon as he said it. My gut screamed, "GET Out!!!" I left the next day. Moved in with my best friends, changed my majors to what I had wanted to do all along but was too scared, and met and married GP a few years later. My life got exponentially better in a short period of time. Two people, two different decisions, same result. Happiness.

Right now to me your actions say two different things. On one hand you committed to IC, MC, and retro (kudos to you for that BTW!!) On the other hand you are moving forward with the divorce. I know from firsthand experience that divorce proceedings can be stopped at any time. So which is it? Make a decision if for your own peace of mind if nothing else.

R is hard work. People talk about your need for safety, (which is fair BTW) but what about Grid's? How's he supposed to process all the hurt, anger, and shame he feels, if he has to handle you with kid gloves all the time? Not to say that you can't shelve certain conversations until MC if emotions are running too raw. I think that's fair. Some conversations are just too delicate, you don't want to mess them up. That's where a good MC comes in.

But first, you have to make a decision.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Ms. GP said:


> Wow! Grid that last post was heartbreaking to read. I am so sorry for your pain.
> 
> One thing I would like to say to Mrs Grid if she is still lurking. First of all I'm not here to judge you. I'm in no position to judge anybody. Trust me! But I would like to pass along some advice that was given to me when I was contemplating leaving my first marriage. I was 20 years old at the time and in a very dysfunctional marriage. I won't bore you with the details. My friend knew I was struggling and he shared with me that he and his wife had almost divorced, but they fully committed to fixing the marriage and were both really happy. He told me, "make a decision. You either in or your out. There's no shame in leaving, but you can't spend the rest of your life miserable." I knew as soon as he said it. My gut screamed, "GET Out!!!" I left the next day. Moved in with my best friends, changed my majors to what I had wanted to do all along but was too scared, and met and married GP a few years later. My life got exponentially better in a short period of time. Two people, two different decisions, same result. Happiness.
> 
> Right now to me your actions say two different things. On one hand you committed to IC, MC, and retro (kudos to you for that BTW!!) On the other hand you are moving forward with the divorce. *I know from firsthand experience that divorce proceedings can be stopped at any time. So which is it? Make a decision if for your own peace of mind if nothing else.*
> 
> R is hard work. People talk about your need for safety, (which is fair BTW) but what about Grid's? How's he supposed to process all the hurt, anger, and shame he feels, if he has to handle you with kid gloves all the time? Not to say that you can't shelve certain conversations until MC if emotions are running too raw. I think that's fair. Some conversations are just too delicate, you don't want to mess them up. That's where a good MC comes in.
> 
> But first, you have to make a decision.


I feel the need to point out that _she_ filed the divorce, not Grid. He has no ability to stop it.


----------



## tom67

Nucking Futs said:


> I feel the need to point out that _she_ filed the divorce, not Grid. He has no ability to stop it.


I just...
:banghead::banghead::banghead::slap::slap::slap


----------



## LongWalk

Get some respite, Grid. Your thread will go on without you for a bit. Objectively, your wife is done. Very little post Dday signals remorse or regret. Your affection is discredited.

There is one reason to be optimistic: you have not obsessed about the OM. Aside from the question of money, you have concentrated on yourself increasingly.

You will end up a wiser person. That will translate into all areas of your, work, parenting, etc.

What you now bring to your marriage or future relationships will even benefit your wife in the event of divorce. You will know how to deal with that situation, too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

Reading between the lines, I guess mediation confirmed what the vets here have been begging you to understand.

From now on, whether you acknowledge it you're in a war to regain your self respect and insure at least a fifty fifty custody split.

If you don't get a good lawyer be prepared to get hosed. The only advice you pay attention to now is his.

Check out dadsdivorce.com.

Maybe we will see a miracle at Retro but it will be the first real reconciliation we've seen while the ap was still in contact.

The 180 is your friend.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

ThreeStrikes said:


> You're going to reach a point where the pain and* loneliness* of living with a wife who doesn't love you pushes you to the precipice.
> 
> Then you will act.
> 
> Until then, try to understand that you don't love your wife. You love the idealistic version of her that only exists in your mind.
> 
> Grid, we don't love people that hurt us over and over, without remorse. That's dysfunctional co-dependence. (I hope you are discussing this with your IC.)
> 
> Learn the technique of self-observation. Observe your situation from an elevation of 50,000 feet. You can't hear what anyone is saying up there. But you can see what they are doing. You observe their actions.
> 
> Watch what is happening as if it is happening to someone else.
> 
> What do you see?





ButtPunch said:


> Anyone else see a pattern of "weak or nice" guys who were terrible husbands and then their
> wife cheated on them. I'm not buying it. Your wife cheated because she lacks moral constitution and
> not because you didn't vacuum the house enough or rub her feet like she wanted.





turnera said:


> She's just doing what all cheaters do: seeing if you'll just sweep it under the rug. When discovered, they make all kinds of grand statements when their back is up against the wall. In the height of the emotion. But now that YOU have calmed down, she's waiting to see if you're going to burn her at the cross. If not, she'll just slip back into the marriage, just the way she wanted.
> What kind of talks have you had about this?





MRR said:


> You can talk about 'sharpening the blade' and whatever other nonsense.
> 
> Just as much as you want to justify in your own head why you should put up with being completely disrespected, in her mind she has to deal with a huge amount of guilt so she actually DOESNT want to make that worse by being a b**ch to you. I know you don't get this. She is not 'sharpening the blade' to hurt you on purpose, she just has no feelings for you. Women typically want to be kind with their rejection-- especially if the rejected one is paying the mortgage and feeding the kids and she has nowhere else to go.
> 
> So quit acting so surprised that she is so d*mn nice to you AND still doesn't want to be married to you. You are not unique in this. This happens all over the world, every single day.





Chaparral said:


> BTW, I also used to give advise similar to what he's getting. I used to have links to plan A and plan B in my signature. It all makes sense. The problem is that, though counter intuitive as it may be, you cannot nice a cheating,hateful spouse back into a marriage. Reconciliation when a wife cheats only happens 15% of time. Reading thousands of threads here definitively indicates if anything works its tough love, very tough love.
> 
> Time after time we have seen that work. Frankly, I don't see anything working in this case. The only chance he had was going shock and awe, telling her to leave and exposing to everyone and their brother. Not only is she not embarrassed and ashamed of her sin and adultery, she's happy with the way things are going.
> 
> While she's gone partying at the wedding, OP should pack her things and put them in storage. Answer none of her communications while she's away, see a lawyer and change the locks.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

I guess you can only multi-quote so many times. I had many more selected from the first 40 pages or so. I invite all of you to go back and re-read at least the 1st 20 pages. Most of the advice was spot on and could have saved Grid a lot of misery, had he listened.

Its so obvious to us all that Grid is *suffering.* And I think only those of us that have been a BS can relate to that degree of pain.

But I think it's great! Grid is going to come through this process transformed. It's exactly what he needs.

He's going to learn about attachment vs love. He's going to learn self-observation. He's going to learn about letting go.

One thing that I still wonder about is Grid's aversion to taking advice from a man. He gravitated towards the female posters, and only selected a female MC/IC.

It's the first thread on TAM where I've experienced that.


----------



## ButtPunch

Anon Pink said:


> I think one of the difficulties is that each time I, or anyone else, points out something on your side of the street there are several people who will post that you are blameless, faultless and should be nominated for sainthood.


What a load of BS! Not once did anyone nominate Grid for sainthood anymore than you portrayed Mrs. G as a helpless victim who's abusive husband forced her to cheat on him.

Mrs. G was responsible for her infidelity and half the marriage. She wanted no part of owning her side of the street. Grid did own his part. Takes two to have a reconciliation.


----------



## TeddieG

From Grid:

"she is obsessed with another man who made her feel the way I haven't in a long time, AND because it makes her feel less guilty if I was more of a villan than I actually was. But, what is getting lost in all of my "nice-ing her back" is that she is WRONG FOR WHAT SHE DID. . . .It was a complete annihilation of my soul, and recovery for me is a long way off. People arent supposed to do that to other people."

To Grid:
Now you're getting it. Now you're getting somewhere. Keep moving forward.


----------



## bfree

ThreeStrikes said:


> I guess you can only multi-quote so many times. I had many more selected from the first 40 pages or so. I invite all of you to go back and re-read at least the 1st 20 pages. Most of the advice was spot on and could have saved Grid a lot of misery, had he listened.
> 
> Its so obvious to us all that Grid is *suffering.* And I think only those of us that have been a BS can relate to that degree of pain.
> 
> But I think it's great! Grid is going to come through this process transformed. It's exactly what he needs.
> 
> He's going to learn about attachment vs love. He's going to learn self-observation. He's going to learn about letting go.
> 
> One thing that I still wonder about is Grid's aversion to taking advice from a man. He gravitated towards the female posters, and only selected a female MC/IC.
> 
> It's the first thread on TAM where I've experienced that.


I think it's pretty simple. When my ex cheated on me I was looking for answers. Why? How? Is there any way back? By listening to the female posters Grid is trying to answer those questions for himself. He's trying to get into the mind of his wife. What is she thinking? How could the woman I knew and loved do this to me? What does she want? What does she think is going to happen now? And quite honestly I think Anon, JLD, Turnera, and the other female posters have given Grid a very good idea of what his wife was and is thinking. In the end it's not going to really matter whose advice Grid follows. His wife hasn't left her job. His wife is the one who filed. His wife is refusing to accept affection from him or even acknowledge the changes he's trying to make. Grid could have Dr Harley, Athol Kay and David Lustman on speed dial and it won't make a difference unless his wife decides to join him in working at reconciliation.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

One thing that struck me as I was re-reading Grid's thread:

We have a lot of* wise* TAMers. People who have attained that wisdom through pain, suffering, deprivation, and loss. Grid's thread is full of wisdom. I hope the silent readers out there pick up on it.

(Did you ever notice that we don't attain wisdom from happiness? )

And I saw how difficult it is to *impart* wisdom to someone else. And man, did some of our TAMers try. Maybe it's not possible? Because it's not something the suffering person wants to hear?

So it's not surprising that someone like Grid would gravitate to the TAMers who *sound intelligent*. They said things that* sound* right. Things that make him think that he can fix his situation, and give him a sense of control.

Siddartha said *patience* trumps everything, even cleverness.

Bandit said this on page 7:

"Grid, walk your own path. If you think the way you are doing it is the right way, then do it.


The universe will equalize all things in the end."

That's wisdom, and patience, talking.


----------



## bfree

Bandit is a very wise man...


Wait...what?


----------



## LongWalk

Here is two-minute movie of the process that Grid is going through.


----------



## abart

Well at least he is finally moving on, hope he does well


----------



## Deejo

Haven't read all of your thread.

But I have read _this kind_ of thread hundreds of times over my tenure.

Here is what I can tell you. What I can quite clearly see, and what I know.

You are going to be just fine.

I don't expect you to see or feel that. Especially not now. There will be noise, pain, hardship and tears.

But you will be fine.

It shows.


----------



## Thundarr

Coming to terms with not having control is scary but inevitable. And it's a fine line between finding and fixing our own faults versus searching for faults to have something to fix. My guess is both of these are factors for you Grid. Once the smoke clears I think you'll have a better view.

For instance, the deck was literally stacked against you during the time of this affair. He knew and she knew but you were uninformed and didn't know that she had motive to find faults with everything you did or didn't do. She had motive to push your buttons so she could justify her choices.


----------



## MRR

I didnt realize, when my WAW said she wanted a divorce 2 years ago, how miserable I had been and how happy I can be. Thank God she forced the end of our marriage (which I fought at the time). I now realize, if it were not for the kids, she is not even the kind of person I want to be associated with, let alone married to. 

Like I said, I had no idea how happy I could be. Are things perfect? No, they never are. But I am so much better off without her, and our kids are so much better off for not having to endure what could have been the next x number of years...


----------



## Evinrude58

I personally think the mediation finally brought the poo all the way up to the fan. He is seeing reality in what she is thinking when he realized she had been thinking about all this and how it would be fixed to benefit her, and how badly he was going to be screwed. I hope that is not the case, but usually it is. I figure he saw the other side of what we've been trying to tell him about taking care of the legal stuff in a whole new light, and it was not pretty.
Probably the best thing to happen to Grid. This will help him start to accept the near certitude of his divorce. He probably realizes for sure now, that there is no going back to his old life.
How painful that realization is cannot be exaggerated. But it will get better, and he will start to see that it wasn't all him, and that his wife pulled a stunt that made absolutely certain that there was no marriage left to go back to. I think she wanted out for whatever reason, I think Turnera has probably a pretty good idea of the thought processes involved. It was an exit affair, I think. My ex had like multiple exit affairs going at once--- crazy****
I think that the women that do this do NOT accept any responsibility for their own role in things, because they don't want to go to any effort to solve anything. They just want to blame their husband for every negative event in their lives, because they are spoiled brats and feel entitled to complete happiness at the expense of their husband. THere is probably no husband that could possibly satisfy them. I say that not only from witnessing my own divorce, but observations of a local friend who always did all the parenting and coddled his wife and followed her every request from the beginning of the marriage, then she went out and banged every friend and coworker she could find and dropped him and left their 3 young children at home with Dad. Maybe I have it all wrong, but I think Grid was loyal, a good provider, not abusive, not an addict or drunk, not a bad guy at all, and reliable. Why could a wife not work things out with this man???? He could have done x, y, and z, and I truly believe the same result would have occurred. This is what happens when a woman starts thinking all of her problems are someone else's fault, and makes the husband the scapegoat. I'm willing to bet that for the rest of her life, she will be generally unhappy, and always have someone else to blame for it.
Just my opinion.
Evinrude


----------



## MRR

MRR said:


> I didnt realize, when my WAW said she wanted a divorce 2 years ago, how miserable I had been and how happy I can be. Thank God she forced the end of our marriage (which I fought at the time). I now realize, if it were not for the kids, she is not even the kind of person I want to be associated with, let alone married to.
> 
> Like I said, I had no idea how happy I could be. Are things perfect? No, they never are. But I am so much better off without her, and our kids are so much better off for not having to endure what could have been the next x number of years...


oh, forgot to add...my ex has thrown some feelers out about getting back together, or at least dating, since she saw how quickly and well I moved on. No dice, but if Grid was going to get the R he wanted, it would have been by moving on immediately, leaving her.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

gridcom said:


> Thanks all, I guess. I'll be honest I am shocked by these responses, and perhaps in denial. I need you all to know that I have done some crummy things, mainly being a self absorbed jerk. Just jerky things. Being a ****, basically. She has warned me that she was at the end of her rope MANY times, but I was in denial about that until this week. The end of her rope comments, the occasional "we're done" comments, would always be at the end of a fight. We are both Italian and raised Italian and to me, you fight, you get it out, and it's over. Again, I've done some ****ty things. We fought in March and it was a bad one (over total nonsense, but we're both pretty stubborn) and my reaction was to tell her I was going to see a lawyer when I never went and saw a lawyer. Shameful petty ****. See? I told you this isnt all on her. I know I am coming down hard on myself, and at my core I am a good, caring guy. I'm emotional and have great care and, again in my defense, am a terrific husband in many ways. Certainly a terrific father.
> 
> 
> Now, the cut is deep and my reaction to it has been exactly what you all have told me not to do. Unbelieveable regret and yearning to "make it up to her", to head dive into therapy to fix whatever it is inside me that not only makes me a ****, but why I cant see it while it's happening. In many ways, I am a very introverted person when it comes to these matters. I am weirdly emotional and thus I try and hide my flaws from others (as I have known they exist but never sought out why). I feel like I want to tell our loved ones that I am the one who is flawed and ask them for guidance and encouragment and to root for me while I get to the bottom of it and become the husband that she has wanted me to be.
> 
> And I am reading that I need to go to a lawyer and beat her to the punch and get tested for STD's and all this and that, and as you can imagine my reaction is simply "No! we can overcome this!" Our children, our two amazing daughters, would be devastated beyond belief. Even if it was her straw that broke the camels back, they'd never forgive me, because, say what you will, I 100% feel at fault. I took her for granted and now I got burned
> 
> You need to know that
> 
> I dont think the man in question is married, but I'd imagine he's younger. I dont know anything about him and dont want to know. I just want him to go away.
> 
> Thank you all. It feels good just to write. I am a mess right now.


We know friend. WE KNOW.

(1) Get and spend time with your kids - everything else is replaceable.

(2) As another recent poster found - cancel ALL joint authorisations and credit cards.

(3) Get to a lawyer, get the rules on splitting assets - if it's legal in 
your jurisdiction - it isn't in mine. In mind the first step is to attend "Parenting through separation" courses. Lawyering up early is illegal ! (and yes is a violation of legal rights, but the law makes its own rules).

(4) Everything in writing, because you can both agree to change things later if you agree, but otherwise "with the stress you can't be expected to remember every agreement or promise perfectly"

(5) Get a personal Audio Recorder, carry it.

(6) Don't rely on her word for anything, especially the kids. As Nice People, we want to show trust, show that we are accomodating and flexible, willing to listen, willing to take her at her word and be the person who makes things work. Guess what! That **** is what got you walked over and her chasing someone else. Don't do it. Be The Man (I suppose that's why they call it "The Man") set the rules, hold the boundaries, by the big guy. When you are successful, they chase you. When you are convenient, they chase the successful ones.


----------



## Vulcan2013

Grid, keep in mind that where you are, the R plan and the D plan involve the same actions. Work on yourself, clean up your side of the street, make sure you have a good legal strategy. Hit the weights and burn off stress, avoid alcohol. 

If she comes around, lay out your conditions for R, if you still want it. You might spend some time considering what those are. And if she wants R, those are your conditions to _consider_ it, but you may not be able to, with all the harm she's done.


----------



## LongWalk

Ovid was a good poster. He was banned. Don't remember why but he was resolute and it gave him the best situation for reconciliation. He was not rigid or embittered.

He had to stomach his wife sending OM pictures of their children and her vagina in the same email.



Ovid said:


> If you don't know my situation the short version is: Wife had a 40 day EA with sexting, pictures, and a statement from my WW that she didn't want me anymore because she had fallen for him. In addition there was a second guy she was stringing along, and a third guy she was talking all about her A to. After reading all I could of her emails, and texts I immediately sent her packing and made it clear I was not interested in her at all, due to her actions. *
> After about a month of begging, and bending over backwards I agreed to attemp R.*
> 
> 
> Everything is going very well on my R. My wife has become a model wife. If there is an issue it's her insecurity. She's consistantly worried I'll dump her any second if I'm the least bit unhappy. I believe this is a result of how quickly I sent her packing on Dday, and the huge amount of effort it took for her to get me to reconsider.
> 
> On Dday she lost all access to her email, phone, etc. I retained the email accounts to see what other information came through.
> 
> There was a trickle of emails at first, but with no replies they eventually stopped.
> 
> About a month and a half ago OM attempted to contact my W again, but his emails were all being received by me. My W never saw them. I decided to try talking to him to out of a kind of morbid curiosity. I asked him questions posing as my W such as "Does it bother you that I'm married?"
> 
> This triggered the hell out of me but helped me as well. Every bad thing I thought about OM proved to be true. It had a side effect I didn't expect.
> 
> When OM attempted to start contact again he was very interested in getting my W to move to his state and live with him. I allowed him to believe she was considering it so I could continue the questions, but never agreed.
> 
> Two days ago I hit him with the truth. He threw my W under the bus by basically saying he was trying to get her to R and only wanted to help her. What a dbag.
> 
> Now he's begging for help on his facebook page. Turns out the state went after him for back child support and he's losing his appartment because he can't pay the rent. He was trying to get a roomate to help him pay the bills. He wasted so much time trying to get my W to move in he's basically cooked.


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## farsidejunky

Checking in on you, Grid.

I hope things were productive at Retrouvaille.


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## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Checking in on you, Grid.
> 
> I hope things were productive at Retrouvaille.


I thought it was this coming weekend?


----------



## Keepin-my-head-up

This weekend, next weekend.. 
As long as it works.
If he doesn't post anymore, I will take that as a "yes it friggin rocked!"


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## Chuck71

Sending a 1987 Fleer set of the NY Mets to Grid....


----------



## Chaparral

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WeNBspJGVko


----------



## happyman64

Let us know how you are doing Grid.....


----------



## Workathome

Any update?


----------



## happy as a clam

I hope grid is ok.


----------



## Betrayedone

Hi Happyman.......It's been a while but you were instrumental in my recovery and I'd like to say thanks. Things are great these days and I could not have done it without you.........


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## Chuck71

I learned who HM64 was on ReGroup's thread. He was one of many TAM titans.....

Although I was past my D by the time I learned of him.... in your thread and many others.... I read his posts 

for "future reference"


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## LongWalk

Retrouvaille must have been and gone.


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## anchorwatch

Retrouvaille isn't just one weekend, LW. It's a process. Grid committed to it, where ever it led. He knew it wouldn't end till late December.


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## Chuck71

I think he's still pizzed off the Mets lost the World Series and is taking it out on us...


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## farsidejunky

Grid!

Hey, Grid!

Griiiiiddddd?

Yo! Grid meister!

I think that sums up the last few posts... lol

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## gridcom

Hi everybody,

First off, I want to thank everyone for checking in etc. I do appreciate that my situation has evoked an emotional response in people, one way or another.

We did go to Retrouvaille. I wish I could say it was the miracle drug we needed, but it wasn't. The highlights were watching other, seemingly more broken couples who werent even sleeping in the same bed, come testify by the end that they were going to recommit to each other. The other highlight was when we did a dialogue on forgivness and sorrow and she told me she wasn't sorry for anything she'd done and wasn't ready to ask for forgiveness. We've gone to two follow ups and have done the dialogue's up through this past weekend. 

Sadly, the fact of the matter is that my wife is addicted to another man. It has consumed her. She knows it but doesn't want to do anything about it. I continue to catch her doing and saying sh*tty things, and then I get bent out of shape because I feel so helpless and cheated and wronged. And she immediately focuses on my reaction and refuses to let what she actually does into the light. Sometimes over the last few weeks, I feel like we have gotten very close, and then I'll find something and it all starts over again. 

She tells the marriage counselor that she is "committed to the process and not the result" (a big term thrown around the house these last few weeks). But then things will happen where it's clear that she isnt committed to the process. Last week, her job had a social event, it was not required for her to go. I didn't want her to go because I didnt want her in a social setting where he would be. She said "I go every year, why wouldnt I go this year?" and I responded "because this year you f^cked a co-worker who may be there, and you've 'committed to the process' of reconciliation and because of that commitment, you shouldn't be putting yourself in that situation" 

She ended up going anyway. He wasn't there. i asked her when she got home was she hoping to see him when she opened the door, and she wouldn't give me an answer. She just looked at her shoes. I asked her if she would have talked to him if he was there, and she said "I don't know"..... This upset me, obviously. Here we are "trying", for our kids, to get it together, and she goes and does this. It sounds very innocent when I tell it to a friend, but I know here on this site, you all know why it's such an issue.

On Thanksgiving morning, two days later, I told her that I was physically and mentally drained. I told her I needed to know that day if she was going to be "committed to the process and not the result" and start acting like it. i told her if she said no, that I was going to move out. I was hoping she'd come back later in the evening and tell me she was in. She came home and she told me she was, in fact, going to continue to focus on our marriages repair. I suspected she may have just said that because she cant afford to live without me, that she essentially wants to use me for my money and my parenting and she will otherwise have no use for me. I kept that thought to myself.

We went to a Retrouvaille post meeting on Saturday and we got along great all day. We actually did a marriage counseling session with our kids, called family play therapy, on Saturday morning, where my 10 year old daughter expressed that all she really wanted was for her parents to spend more time with her and for us to spend more time as a family. I was proud of her and at the same time ashamed at myself.

During the Retoruvaille post, one of the drills was asking us what things do we value. There was a list of things that we value. if value it, we put a "yes" next to it, and if it's "of no value", dont put anything next to it. There is no cap on how many yes's, you can yes them all. Things like "family meals together". "hobbies". "wealth-money", "physical appearance" , etc. One was simply "Marriage" and she left it blank. This offended me. I guess that's how she really felt. One the ride home, once again we argues about this. I was hurt. I was confused; my hopes dashed. One of the Retrouvaille couples expressed that they wanted to hear from us more if we were struggling. Yesterday (Monday), my wife had to work an odd day shift, with her AP all day long. When she got home, I did ask her if she saw him or spoke to him. She said "no". I believed her.

At 7pm last night, we were on the phone with a Retrouvaille couple where the wife had an affair 25 years into the marriage and moved out, etc etc. Remarkably similar. Co-worker, thought she was in love, out of love with her husband, the whole thing. I thought this couple was extremely effective. It was the first wife cheater my wife has spoken to in the almost 5 months since this started. This woman told my wife all that she went through, how messed up her mind was, how her mind worked the way it did, why she did what she did, how her husband reacted, and finally how they got it together again. They told us that Retrouvaille was not a magic solution for them either, and that it took 8 months after Retrouvaille to finally fall back in love.

When we hung up, I asked my wife what she thought. She said "they talked to me like I was a drug addict". I kept my mouth shut. About 30 minutes later, I went to the AP's Spotify Playlist. REMEMBER THAT? Well, good ole' AP has been updating it with songs dedicated to my wife pretty much weekly. A running playlist that was now 55 songs and 3 hours long (whole lotta missed love). I checked it yesterday around 3pm. I went and checked it again at 9:30 last night. It was suddenly vanished. Not only was it gone, but he had a new follower. The new person following him on Spotify was my wife, who suddenly has a new Spotify account. So, they work all day together, she claims they didnt speak, then he removes the playlist, and she is following him all of a sudden. I take a screen shot off the computer and text it to my wife (who's at the Supermarket). I call her, my heart is about to burst my chest open. How F^CKING RUDE. HOW F^CKING VILE. She DENY'S it. I say "what are you talking about? Check your texts?" She see's it and tells me that what I am seeing isnt what I am really seeing. Complete and utter insanity.

Finally, she comes home and I am just so hurt and upset by all of this repeated disrespect. I lost it. The anger just overflowed out of me. She admitted that she talked to him at work, told him I was following his playlist and knew it was dedicated to her. This was all she'd admit to. Somehow, in all of this, I've caught every lie she's told me. In other words, she's only admitting to the lies that I catch red handed. Otherwise, if I have no proof, she's admitting to nothing. 

I lost my mind last night. it was the culmination of 5 months of soul searching, begging, forgiving, and TORTURE. I told her I was moving out. I packed my stuff and drove off and spent the night at my mothers.

This morning, I woke up to my mother telling me "Get your a$$ back into that house. That's YOUR [email protected] house! You get back there and tell her to get the f^ck out." Then I spoke to the nice woman from Retrouvaille from last night and she told me the same thing. She said one of the reasons she turned it around was that her husband made it HARD on her, that she couldnt live with the consequences and that it sounded like I've made it too easy on my wife. She also told me to get back in the house.

So.... here I am back in the house. My wife is PISSED at me for how I reacted last night. Never mind what she did, but it's about how I reacted to what she did. Nevermind that what she did to me is the single worst thing one human being can do to another human being, absolute betrayal from the one you love. NEVERMIND ALL THAT. I'm the POS because I was angry. I punched the side of a cabinet last night. Not hard, didnt leave a dent or anything. Some people, when they punch something out of rage, you know.....there's a HOLE!!!!!!. Not here, not even a dent. I told her that I just had rage spilling out of me. That if I didnt let it out, I was going to have a heart attack. I was just so upset that she would lie to me like that again, so brazenly. She has told me she doesnt care what I think or how I feel. TOTAL BETRAYAL.

At the same time, she tells me that she did her best to fix the marriage. How? How do you figure this? She has been infatuated with this man the entire time, pining for him. As many of ladies here would have wanted me to, I told her that it was OK that she was pining for him. That I understood. We learned at Retrouvaille that you cant help and judge how someone feels. But you can judge someones actions. And as long as her feelings stayed isolated to feelings and not actions, she was going t have all the time and support from me to sort it out. CONSTANT BETRAYAL.

Anyway, she is telling me we go to a mediator immediately or she is going to litigation. My marriage is over. I feel utterly helpless and devastated. I cant stop thinking about how we are breaking our children's hearts. All I can think about is how much I'll take and how far I will go for these kids. I have never felt closer to any human beings , even my wife or my mother, than I do to these two little girls. My love for them is the realest most genuine love I have ever experienced. The thought of not seeing them everyday has motivated me to do things well well beyond any reason or self respect. 

I am broken over here. I know some of you more hardcore TAM'ers are total "I told you so" and you did. I read Buttpunch's entire thread and he handled his situation exactly the opposite to how I handled mine. Honor to him. Seriously. I was completely fascinated how he handled himself.

I feel overwhelmed with weakness and helplessness. I can do NOTHING to save my family. I can do nothing to save my wife from herself. She refuses to seek counseling. The marriage counselor told her she needed to see someone individually and she ignored her. Her friends that she talks to about this are a selective bunch and she doesnt tell them the straight story. She tells them the parts that make her look like a victim and me like an animal.

I guess I am going to agree to mediation because that's the cheaper and most likely better way for me. All I want is my kids in my life, every day. I can never ever forgive someone who has taken that way from me.


----------



## jld

Grid, it does sound like you are headed for divorce. Someone here probably knows how you can negotiate at least half time with your kids, maybe more.

The only thing I can suggest is what someone recently called a "paper divorce," with you two living in the same house but living separate lives. It would save you both money and let you both see your girls every day. Not sure your wife would agree.

I am really sorry Retrouvaille was not everything we had hoped for you.


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## Marc878

Go to mediation and never look back. You're just wasting time/life on this that you can never get back.


----------



## gridcom

I couldn't bear to see my wife with another man. I have been in love with this woman for over 20 years. One of my biggest, if not my single biggest mistake, was thinking that the way she felt about me on our wedding day was cast in cement. I would never make that mistake again. Regardless, I couldn't bear to see her with another man. It would crush me. I don't even think I can live in the same town. I'd need some separation. This town is too small and quaint to be the guy who mopes around, who lost his family. There is one guy here in town who got a divorce. Also had a 10 year old daughter. You see him at events and you feel like he's got the plague. His identity is "the divorced" guy. I dont want to be like that

This is truly awful


----------



## anchorwatch

I'm sure you were both told you can't work on it with someone else involved the relationship. 

Forget the outcome, she's not committed to the process either. She's lying to the MC and RV too. 

How can she be committed to the process and be playing footsie with the OM. 

No choices left for you, Grid. She made her's, now you make yours. 

Best


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## farsidejunky

End it.

Quickly.

Your wife wants to pursue this other man. Set her free to do it.

Focus on you and your kids. Get into IC to deal with your anger. Implement a modified 180 immediately. She no longer gets anything from you that doesn't have to do with the kids.

I am sorry, brother.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Marc878

gridcom said:


> I couldn't bear to see my wife with another man. I have been in love with this woman for over 20 years. One of my biggest, if not my single biggest mistake, was thinking that the way she felt about me on our wedding day was cast in cement. I would never make that mistake again. Regardless, I couldn't bear to see her with another man. It would crush me. I don't even think I can live in the same town. I'd need some separation. This town is too small and quaint to be the guy who mopes around, who lost his family. There is one guy here in town who got a divorce. Also had a 10 year old daughter. You see him at events and you feel like he's got the plague. His identity is "the divorced" guy. I dont want to be like that
> 
> This is truly awful


Well one things for sure you cannot fix her and what you've been doing hasn't worked has it? 

Tell her it's time she moved out that you need to get on with your life. 
It's better than reacting to whatever she wants to do. Make no mistake it's all about her. You don't figure into the equation. 

Obviously she has no respect for you so you do need to start respecting yourself. Do you want to spend more of your time/life like this????

Quit living your life on her terms. Move fast on the mediation and go as much no contact as possible. What you've been doing isn't working is it????

Some time alone will allow you to fix yourself for your future.

Get your respect back man. C'mon!!!!


----------



## lifeistooshort

I'm sorry Grid. I really am. I think you should hold your head up because you made a ton of effort, most of it one sided; at the end of the day not only is your wife infatuated with this other guy but she's angry at you and thinks of this as a payback for your treatment of her. That's why she's not sorry.

I'm not going to argue the merits of that with TAM, I'm just going to say that this is how she views things. In her mind you owe her for putting up with you.

You've owned your part and tried to make amends, and you deserve kudos for that. Not everyone does.....there's plenty of divorced people who swear up and down they had nothing whatsoever to do with the marriage failure.....especially where cheating is concerned because the tendency is that once a spouse cheats nothing else matters. I suspected she wasn't going to come around, at least while you two were still living together. Too much resentment and fantasy going on.

I've tried very hard not to project here and I'll admit it's been tough; I'm also going to admit that part of me feels that if I'd cheated on my ex he had it coming because he really treated me like crap. But I also think you're not him.....he would not have done anything for me and often did things to harm me. Ironically he thinks I did cheat, which I did not, because it absolves him of anything and everything. Hard to believe that after almost 11 years he's still single.

Go to mediation and end things; I suppose it's possible she'll come around once she faces life without you, but as you've pointed out it'll be because she doesn't have your support. There is an off chance she'll start to genuinely miss you, and if that happens and you're interested you can consider it but don't put your life on hold because of it. You can tell her that you accept that you've not behaved well but you don't have to keep your life on hold while she plays footsies and you'll be finding someone to enjoy the better man you've become.

Is it possible that if you'd gone ape like many on TAM thought you should you'd fix your marriage? Possible, but it's also equally possible if not more likely that you'd simply have a resentful wife who felt bullied back into the marriage. "What if" is a pointless and terrible question to ask yourself.

And don't get stuck in the mindset that this will be the apocalypse for your kids.....that is not true. Do not project your sadness at losing the marriage onto them.....it's not intentional but extremely common and easy to do. You're devastated so you project that devastation onto them, and make no mistake that they will be looking to you to see how bad this is.

And he's not "the divorced guy".....that's you projecting. People get divorced all the time.....it's not the 1950's. Keep your head up and look forward.


----------



## TeddieG

((((((((((((((((((hugs, grid)))))))))))))))))))

Leaving you for the OM may be the consequences she needs. In a year or two, she may reach out and realize what a mistake she made. But I suspect if she leaves, goes through mediation, and you guys end it, you'll move on by the time she wakes up and smells the coffee. 

You gave it your best, man. You did. You can't make somebody do something, even IF you know she is like the Retrouvaille wife who realizes now her head was messed up. 

Time to look after you, bro.


----------



## Thundarr

Did you have to bribe your wife to do Retrouvaille Grid? She's not there to fix the marriage so I'm curious why she even considered it.


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## TheTruthHurts

Sorry man. You did way more than I would have. But she never wanted R and never regretted leaving the marriage.

Skype - that's the key here - you can be anywhere and still see the kids. And they're resilient - way more than us adults.

You still love a woman that doesn't exist. Don't worry about this woman being with other guys. She's not your problem anymore.

So realize you're free. You really are.


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## bfree

Grid, I'm sorry it's come to this, but frankly I'm not surprised. You can't fix a marriage by yourself regardless what anyone says. And she wasn't going to bother trying so long as she has unicorns and rainbows connecting her and this other man. He needed to be gone before she would see you for who you really are and not the demon she's rationalized you to be. The best thing you can do right now is concentrate on yourself and your children. You need to be their rock through this because your wife isn't thinking clearly.


----------



## Bibi1031

gridcom said:


> I couldn't bear to see my wife with another man. I have been in love with this woman for over 20 years. One of my biggest, if not my single biggest mistake, was thinking that the way she felt about me on our wedding day was cast in cement. I would never make that mistake again. Regardless, I couldn't bear to see her with another man. It would crush me. I don't even think I can live in the same town. I'd need some separation. This town is too small and quaint to be the guy who mopes around, who lost his family. There is one guy here in town who got a divorce. Also had a 10 year old daughter. You see him at events and you feel like he's got the plague. His identity is "the divorced" guy. I dont want to be like that
> 
> This is truly awful



You need help with getting over the fact that you can't see your wife with someone else. She has already been someone else's woman. She has not been your wife since she fell "in love" with the other man. I'm sorry, but that's the ugly, blunt truth. 

She loves this man and he loves her. They are having a relationship. She just happens to just be going through the motions with you. She is cheating on him by staying with you because her heart is with the other man. I know this sounds painful, but in her fogged up head that is how she really feels. You can't change how SHE feels. 

Let her go as you can't control how she feels. You kept fighting a battle when the darn war was already lost. Some of us just need to keep fighting that losing battle until we are exhausted or defeated enough to accept the awful truth; our life as we knew it is long gone. 

The person we love does not love us. The marriage we treasure they can't wait to trash. It's all so depressing and unfair, but that is the hand we were dealt. We lost, but we fought until we couldn't fight to defend no more. 

We gave it our all. That is all we could do. We didn't fail when the bad times came. We could of weathered through any storm, but to save a marriage it takes TWO. It's not a one man job. You never stood a chance Grid, but you had to try. It's who you are, and that ain't bad; just terribly painful. 

You will never lose your girls. Give them all that extra love your wife threw away. They are much more deserving of it. Your children will ALWAYS be yours. Thank God our babies can't divorce us. We will always be their parents and they will always be our babies. 

((((Hugs))))

Bibi


----------



## LongWalk

Gridcom,

I was the one who pushed GutPunch's thread on you. GP acted in a way that I never could of when I was younger, when it mattered. That's because we need successful models. Part of our will to succeed is genetic, too. From what you have written I would not conclude that you cannot succeed in picking yourself up and putting your life together. Keep GP in mind as a mentor. You can start being your own version of GP starting this minute.

One of the reasons that your wife refused to make an effort at reconciliation is that her involvement with OM is deeper than she has let on. I know you don't want to believe that she and OM had sex over the past 5 months of false reconciliation but the chances are that they did even if there were only one or two tortured quickies.

OM, for the sake of your kids, is hopefully not too horrible a guy. The worst thing would be that he is an abusive jerk. 

You face some tough decisions. If you like your town and the house you live in, I suggest you consider staying put. Why run away. Your daughters will like remaining in their home. Be prepared to buy out your wife if you can. Once your wife has shacked up with OM, you'll get over her and date other women. Give it some time. Don't let this betrayal take the Pixies and other things from you.

I agree with LifeistooShort that your wife is still into punishing you. When that phase ends and the love buzz wears off in year's time, she may change her mind again. But to be honest I don't see reconciliation. I am curious, though. If in 18 months time your wife were to tell you this had been a process that you had to go through to find each other again, would you believe her if she said she loved you again?

Time to 180.

One more note: Your wife does not believe you can get over her or that other desirable women could want you. The quicker you find a good way to distance yourself emotionally from her, the sooner the pain will diminish. There is nothing wrong with mourning the loss of your wife/marriage.


----------



## JohnA

Grid, please do not leave us. A bond has been formed, a good one and a health one. 

I know, and others here know what it is like to be trapped in a room with no door. Nothing but loss. 

Today and every day hold the changes you made for a better relationship with a death grip. Use the pain as a spur to build the relationship with your children. 

Keep posting.


----------



## cbnero

It's not so bad. You were alive before her you will be alive after her. Some kids grow up in a foster home.

Listen up now. Get you mind right. Your emotions are turning you into a pile of shyt. F her and F him too. Let them have each other they both suck. Why mourn a lying cheating ho? Your wife is only this great person in your head. Not in real life. Face facts that she sucks. Quit talking to her. F mediation get a lawyer. Embrace the anger and move on.

I have been preaching this since day 1 as have others. At this point you are doing more damage to yourself than her. Realize it and get yourself under control.

Focus. 50k. 180.

Ignore any poster that says otherwise. As I've posted before. Get it together.


----------



## Archangel2

Grid - I am so sorry that things did not work out. However, you should take solace in the fact that, as St. Paul said, "I have fought the good fight..." You may not realize it now, but Retrouvaille has taught you how to be a better communicator in a relationship. This will pay dividends when (and I do mean when) you meet someone else who truly deserves you. You can truly look at yourself in the mirror and say that you gave saving this marriage your best shot, and you can move on with a clear conscience.

Peace and strength, my friend.


----------



## Evinrude58

Grid,
Just wanted to say I'm sorry. I know firsthand how soul-crushing this is. I also know that you can get through it and be a better person for it. You've got a rough and rugged road to travel yet. She will still want to hurt you every way she can. She will hate it when she senses you are getting better and when you find someone else, hopefully months from now when your mind has healed, it will drive her nuts to see you happy and she will wonder why she isn't. 
Rest assured, you will be happy again. It will take months, maybe even a couple of years, but I promise you will be. 
I do hope you will get your girls and find a new, happier life. It will suck bigtime that you will still have to put up with the pain of dealing with her about the kids. Try to limit any physical contact with her. I still have problems hurting when I see mine. She works at the same place I work and that sucks. No contact at all is ideal for the pain. 
Just know that we all know how much it hurts, and all wish we could bear some of the load for you.
Hoping you get to some light at the end of the tunnel as soon as possible.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Keepin-my-head-up

Sorry man.
I really was hoping this would have worked out for you.

It didn't tho so now that chapter has been written.

From experience I can tell you the good and the bad.
the bad news is that you will be going thru a lot more.
The good news is that what you will now be fighting for are the things that matter.
Time(with kids), security(the home and who gets it or how it gets sold and divided), and finances.

Do not go thru with mediation if her lawyer attends.
I know a lot of mediators prefer just the two parties attend but having the attorneys present does happen.
It happened to me.
Your wife already has a lawyer so she is probably schooled (or will be) on how to handle this process.

As for that guy who is known as the divorced guy?
Sounds like he is still going to events and traversing the town.

Life went on for him and it will for you as well.


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## eric1

This is a lesson to probably hundreds of people reading this thread and in the same situation as Grid - after d-day No Contact means No Contact. For workplace affairs this means immediately one needs to not be at that job anymore. The potential financial impact of this is a consequence of the CHEATERS decisions that you'll both have to live with should you decide to offer the gift of reconciliation.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## just got it 55

Sorry Grid

I fell like you were expecting this but I'm sure it hurts you like hell

The pain is there for you to learn and grow

Ease that pain with your babies love

Mrs. Grid is gone.....One day you will be thankful.

The best thing God ever made is another day

55


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## LongWalk

More about the dynamics of your relationship:

I think you once depicted your courtship as an unexpected one. You were the drummer nerd guy who was uncertain about himself. She was a hot chick who chose that guy. You responded to married life by making a big effort career wise. You have been successful. However, in that process you did not treat your wife as an equal partner. Like many men you believed marriage was a contract that would secure her heart and sexual fidelity. You assumed that there was solidarity to the family even if you had failings.

Not knowing your wife, it is difficult to fathom her decision making process in taking the step to be a cheater. But remember once she began to bask in the sunshine of OM's attention, her discontent with you, her life and the universe became pronounced. If she held back from sex with OM while their relationship was developing, during that time she was ransacking her mind for every POS thing you ever did. She may now hate the way you chew your pizza. The site of you combing your hair before business meetings may irritate her. But you have two children together and probably there was passion at one time, so she cannot cut you out of her life story completely. Her feelings are probably mixed now. On the one hand she hopes that you will linger in depression and be the loser that you described. On the other hand she wants you to be happy, freeing her from the guilt and stress of a bitter betrayed spouse.

All marriages contain a degree of co-dependence. Did your wife learn something about herself so that she moved on from a failed marriage a wiser, more mature person? Or did she hop from one co-dependent relationship to another?

All you have to do now is take care of self, work and kids. Each is priority, depending on the time of day.

Do not go to mediation if she has a lawyer with her (as a previous poster suggested).

Right now you face a major decision in splitting assets. Do you sell the house or not. For the moment interest rates are low. You can lock in at 3.0 percent.

How many times have you played the drums in the last 6 months.

Learn to juggle or something with your eldest daughter.


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## gridcom

LongWalk said:


> More about the dynamics of your relationship:
> 
> I think you once depicted your courtship as an unexpected one. You were the drummer nerd guy who was uncertain about himself. She was a hot chick who chose that guy. You responded to married life by making a big effort career wise. You have been successful. However, in that process you did not treat your wife as an equal partner. Like many men you believed marriage was a contract that would secure her heart and sexual fidelity. You assumed that there was solidarity to the family even if you had failings.
> 
> Not knowing your wife, it is difficult to fathom her decision making process in taking the step to be a cheater. But remember once she began to bask in the sunshine of OM's attention, her discontent with you, her life and the universe became pronounced. If she held back from sex with OM while their relationship was developing, during that time she was ransacking her mind for every POS thing you ever did. She may now hate the way you chew your pizza. The site of you combing your hair before business meetings may irritate her. But you have two children together and probably there was passion at one time, so she cannot cut you out of her life story completely. Her feelings are probably mixed now. On the one hand she hopes that your will linger in depression and be the loser that you described. On the other hand she wants you to be happy, freeing her from the guilt and stress of a bitter betrayed spouse.
> 
> All marriages contain a degree of co-dependence. Did your wife learn something about herself so that she moved on from a failed marriage a wiser, more mature person? Or did she hop from one co-dependent relationship to another?
> 
> All you have to do now is take care of self, work and kids. Each is priority, depending on the time of day.
> 
> Do not go to mediation if she has a lawyer with her (as a previous poster suggested).
> 
> Right now you face a major decision in splitting assets. Do you sell the house or not. For the moment interest rates are low. You can lock in at 3.0 percent.
> 
> How many times have you played the drums in the last 6 months.
> 
> Learn to juggle or something with your eldest daughter.


Ironically, I have not touched my drums since this started. Which, if you knew me, is amazingly sad. I also have had no joy in the last 5 months. That is the honest truth. What little nibbles of joy I've felt are when my wife has been nice enough to me for me to forget the pending doom or little moments with my kids, at Panera, etc. Or watching my youngest daughter be silly. I went to a show for work about 3 weeks ago, a show from a band I was looking forward to seeing. I stayed for 20 minutes. A co-worker was there, and when I told him I was leaving, he was like "Are you serious?" I went to another the weekend before Thanksgiving, and this was right after Retrouvaille when there was hope, and for whatever reason I took a walk around Brooklyn for 45 minutes and cried a little.

I'm supposed to go to a big company meeting today and I am thinking I need to blow it off. I havent slept well since Saturday into Sunday. Sunday night I had a terrible stomach ache and Monday and last night have been just horrible. 

I know I need to get a grip. I feel like I am tumbling down the stairs trying to grab onto a rail. I feel weak. 

She's mad at my anger over this last betrayal. I don't know. I kept asking her when I was flipping out "what do you expect of me?" It's like KEEP RIPPING THE BAND-AID OFF MY DEEPEST WOUND AND WATCH MY HEAD EXPLODE. I used to freak out like this when we fought before this whole affair, so she see's this and thinks "nothing's changed" and I just dont think that is fair. This wound goes right to the heart. Try me on a smaller dispute. I feel like I have changed, a lot. I feel like I've evolved these last 5 months. I don't think it's fair to judge me on this particular wound. DONT TOUCH IT. Let me heal!

EDIT: I did enjoy the Mets. I really did get into that few weeks, as a distraction


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## TeddieG

Grid, now that my h is gone, I realize that there were so many things I thought were wrong with me that weren't. I thought I had failed my h because I don't look like I did when we met, in my 30s. Sure, I've put on a little weight, but I still look ten years or more younger than I am. My work is amazing; I help students learn and my classes fill up before any of those of my colleagues. But the entire time I was with h from the time of bomb drop, all I could think about was, what is wrong with me?

There's an old saying that I've posted here before, when the student is ready the teacher will come. I realize my h has NPD, bi polar disorder (well, I knew that, but I learned he has no desire to manage it), he didn't handle the damage the doctor did to him with the stent, he is a Peter Pan, he wants sex more than he wants commitment and long-term mature love, and he has a host of family of origin issues. He medicates himself with booze and sex, and is an emotional coward. He resents women and hurts them in any way he can after he's been in a long-term relationship because instead of fostering healthy conflict, he nurses resentments and doesn't speak up. 

My list could go on but the reality is, there's not enough wrong with me, there's not enough less than perfect about me, that I deserved what he did. 

There's not enough wrong with you that you deserved what she did. And when you have some time away from this battle to think and process, you'll realize this. You'll stop contorting yourself. The lessons you will learn will not be that you're an azzhat and you feel the need to fix that; the lessons you will learn are about the ways you missed some messages about your wife that were overlooked in the initial fog of love and desire and willingness to commit. It's an issue for all of us. Welcome to the club, and stay the course.


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## gridcom

LongWalk said:


> But remember once she began to bask in the sunshine of OM's attention, her discontent with you, her life and the universe became pronounced. If she held back from sex with OM while their relationship was developing, during that time she was ransacking her mind for every POS thing you ever did. She may now hate the way you chew your pizza. The site of you combing your hair before business meetings may irritate her.


This is so spot on accurate


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## gridcom

My father was 44 when he died. I will be 44 this Sunday. I met my wife a month after my father died, in 1991. This has been by far the worst year of my life. At 44, I feel like I am now entering the phase in my life that I could drop dead any minute. I feel mortal. I feel like time is running out. I feel like the life I made for me and my family, all the work and effort and focus I've poured into the last 18 years of my professional life, was a mistake. EDIT: "a waste"

I know people have it worse. Someone earlier mentioned kids growing up in foster homes. I have a work peer who's daughter just died of brain cancer on Monday (15 years old) after an 8 year fight. They had a Facebook page set up for her "fight". I checked in on it often, and would sometimes send him messages that I was thinking about him. He would respond and tell me he enjoys seeing the pictures of my girls on Facebook. I admire him for his strength. If my daughter was dying like that, I wouldnt want to look at other peoples kids on Facebook. I'd have my face buried in my palms. 

Most, if not all, of you have similar stories to mine, and some I'd imagine were actually worse. I remember reading the thread of the guy who put the VAR in his wife's car and heard her not only having sex with the OM, but then talking bad about her husband with the OM after the sex. And, if I'm not mistaken, I think they reconciled!!!!! 

I guess my point is I don't know why I can't get up and have the Theme from Rocky blasting my head. It took this event to demonstrate to me how much my family means to me, and it's very clear how I took it all for granted. Shame on me. Really.


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## ButtPunch

God grant me the serenity 
to accept the things I cannot change; 
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

Living one day at a time; 
Enjoying one moment at a time; 
Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace; 
Taking, as He did, this sinful world
as it is, not as I would have it; 
Trusting that He will make all things right
if I surrender to His Will;
That I may be reasonably happy in this life 
and supremely happy with Him
Forever in the next.
Amen.

Grid....You and your children are going to be just fine.


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## lifeistooshort

This thread has been such a trigger for me, yet right now my heart hurts for you. 

My ex would never have spoken of me, our kids, and himself the way you speak of these things. 

Take care of yourself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Evinrude58

gridcom said:


> My father was 44 when he died. I will be 44 this Sunday. I met my wife a month after my father died, in 1991. This has been by far the worst year of my life. At 44, I feel like I am now entering the phase in my life that I could drop dead any minute. I feel mortal. I feel like time is running out. I feel like the life I made for me and my family, all the work and effort and focus I've poured into the last 18 years of my professional life, was a mistake. EDIT: "a waste"
> 
> I know people have it worse. Someone earlier mentioned kids growing up in foster homes. I have a work peer who's daughter just died of brain cancer on Monday (15 years old) after an 8 year fight. They had a Facebook page set up for her "fight". I checked in on it often, and would sometimes send him messages that I was thinking about him. He would respond and tell me he enjoys seeing the pictures of my girls on Facebook. I admire him for his strength. If my daughter was dying like that, I wouldnt want to look at other peoples kids on Facebook. I'd have my face buried in my palms.
> 
> Most, if not all, of you have similar stories to mine, and some I'd imagine were actually worse. I remember reading the thread of the guy who put the VAR in his wife's car and heard her not only having sex with the OM, but then talking bad about her husband with the OM after the sex. And, if I'm not mistaken, I think they reconciled!!!!!
> 
> I guess my point is I don't know why I can't get up and have the Theme from Rocky blasting my head. * It took this event to demonstrate to me how much my family means to me, and it's very clear how I took it all for granted. Shame on me. Really.*


Grid,
Once you start healing, I believe you will begin to see that this was not nearly as much your fault as you feel now. To be honest, you are no further along in this than you were 6 months ago, because you are still able to see hope and still want her. Until you let this go, you will see this as all your fault and none of hers. I am certain that it's at least HALF her fault. You will start to see it, but only when you let go of her. AND, you will be HURTING just like now UNTIL you give up your old life and start working on a new one. JLD is entirely wrong on the whole thing, and her advice will just continue to cause you hope and pain. Surely you can see that until you stop this and move on, you will be in constant torture. Oddly enough, that's where your wife wants you to be. YOU CAN MAKE IT. It won't be easy, but you can, and you will be fine if you just accept what you cannot change, instead of holding on to a rope that's been cut long ago.


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## farsidejunky

ButtPunch said:


> God grant me the serenity
> to accept the things I cannot change;
> courage to change the things I can;
> and wisdom to know the difference.
> 
> Living one day at a time;
> Enjoying one moment at a time;
> Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace;
> Taking, as He did, this sinful world
> as it is, not as I would have it;
> Trusting that He will make all things right
> if I surrender to His Will;
> That I may be reasonably happy in this life
> and supremely happy with Him
> Forever in the next.
> Amen.
> 
> Grid....You and your children are going to be just fine.


Amen, brother.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## happyman64

Grid

There comes a point in our lives where the original dreams we had change.

Reality sets in.

We might say that all our work was a "waste" at that point.

I'm right there with you my friend.

I was diagnosed with stage 4 esophageal cancer only 3 weeks ago. My outcome does not look good. 

I sat in the exam room at Sloan Kettering this Monday morning with my wife of 23 years, my mother, my twin sister and younger sister when the Doctor told me to get my affairs in order.

I am angry. I am sad. But then I think of my goals in life.

I found a woman who loved me for over 30 years. She gave me 3 beautiful girls 21, 15 & 14 and I have had the privilege to watch them grow up into young woman and begin chasing their dreams.

I attained my goals though they have certainly changed. I will not attain some of them now but I have little or no control over those goals now.

I understand your heart is broken. But you did not break it. There comes a time in certain relationships where the cycle of "hurt" needs to end.

I urge you to end it. Divorce your wife. Who cares that she wants to be with the other man. Let her go!

Because I truly believe we only control our own actions. Her actions and goals have not matched yours for a good amount of time.

Focus right now on what is in front of you.


Yourself. Your children. Your job.

Let your wife go. She needs to live and feel the consequences for the decisions she has made this past year.

Will it hurt to see her with someone else? Yes. You have felt that hurt for months now. Stop letting her do that to you.

Is all this crap worth having a heart attack over? No.

My Dad is very upset and I worry about his health failing over my current situation.

I gave him a hug and told him not to get sick over me. I reminded him what a great life I have had, that I currently have and that my wife and kids would need him and my mother more than ever.

I reminded him that should be his focus.

So I am reminding you on where you should focus. 

Yourself. Your kids. Your job.

Your wife has felt no consequences for her hurtful decisions and actions.

Let Her Go so maybe someday she grows up. She is of no use to you or your children unless she grows up.

Good Luck and maybe I'll see on the streets in NYC soon. :wink2:

HM


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## just got it 55

Grid you are on the outside looking in through filthy glass

When you clean the glass clear of filthy emotions

The view will be much more clear

Just look at your babies they are still there and make every second count. I know it will be hard for you to be with them and not think of Mrs.Grid.

Reflect on your actions and reactions and make the changes you need to. You have already started this process and have made some very hard improvements.

But here is the thing......No real improvements can or will be made until you accept your situation. 
Accept that there were two flawed people that failed each other.

Your sadness and sorrow are simply human.

Moving forward your only interaction with Mrs. Grid should be clear and present indifference 
She needs to start feeling her security blanket being removed.

Concentrate on finances your job and your babies in the order of priority
as they will change from day to day.

Read and live The Four Agreements if you adopt the message It will change your life.

Keep your chin up young man Like Jim Brown said "Always get up slow... That way they will never know when you are hurt"

55


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## just got it 55

happyman64 said:


> Grid
> 
> There comes a point in our lives where the original dreams we had change.
> 
> Reality sets in.
> 
> We might say that all our work was a "waste" at that point.
> 
> I'm right there with you my friend.
> 
> I was diagnosed with stage 4 esophageal cancer only 3 weeks ago. My outcome does not look good.
> 
> I sat in the exam room at Sloan Kettering this Monday morning with my wife of 23 years, my mother, my twin sister and younger sister when the Doctor told me to get my affairs in order.
> 
> I am angry. I am sad. But then I think of my goals in life.
> 
> I found a woman who loved me for over 30 years. She gave me 3 beautiful girls 21, 15 & 14 and I have had the privilege to watch them grow up into young woman and begin chasing their dreams.
> 
> I attained my goals though they have certainly changed. I will not attain some of them now but I have little or no control over those goals now.
> 
> I understand your heart is broken. But you did not break it. There comes a time in certain relationships where the cycle of "hurt" needs to end.
> 
> I urge you to end it. Divorce your wife. Who cares that she wants to be with the other man. Let her go!
> 
> Because I truly believe we only control our own actions. Her actions and goals have not matched yours for a good amount of time.
> 
> Focus right now on what is in front of you.
> 
> 
> Yourself. Your children. Your job.
> 
> Let your wife go. She needs to live and feel the consequences for the decisions she has made this past year.
> 
> Will it hurt to see her with someone else? Yes. You have felt that hurt for months now. Stop letting her do that to you.
> 
> Is all this crap worth having a heart attack over? No.
> 
> My Dad is very upset and I worry about his health failing over my current situation.
> 
> I gave him a hug and told him not to get sick over me. I reminded him what a great life I have had, that I currently have and that my wife and kids would need him and my mother more than ever.
> 
> I reminded him that should be his focus.
> 
> So I am reminding you on where you should focus.
> 
> Yourself. Your kids. Your job.
> 
> Your wife has felt no consequences for her hurtful decisions and actions.
> 
> Let Her Go so maybe someday she grows up. She is of no use to you or your children unless she grows up.
> 
> Good Luck and maybe I'll see on the streets in NYC soon. :wink2:
> 
> HM


T (HM64) I hope and pray for the best outcome for you and your family (which I know that is all you will worry about) But in the event of a tragic outcome for what it's worth the legacy of your work kind words and advice here will be used and quoted for years to come.

Your words have displayed the kindest strongest compassion possible to be read or written on boards like these.

If we can help in any way let us do so

Grid sorry for the T/J but I am sure you can excuse this one

David AKA 55


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## Pluto2

Oh Grid, I am so sorry you are coming back with this kind of update. I had hoped that her willingness to go to R'ville meant that part of her wanted to heal the marriage. Nope. You get trickle-truth and blame-shifting. Like your W, my ex never admitted to anything I didn't already know. And even when I found more proof, he denied it. It sort of became ridiculous. I'd show him the print-outs and he'd say the words on the paper weren't the words I'd say they were or I must have planted it. Guess he thought he could do jedi-mind tricks on me.

Be forewarned, sometimes you never get the truth or the details. Try to work on the 180. The more you do, the less it hurts. Your goal is to get to the point of MEH. I know it seems unattainable, but it isn't. Honestly.

The big problem in detaching is that they started the process of leaving months ahead of you-way back when her infatuation with OM started. So while the wound is fresh for you, it isn't for them.

Go for mediation (yes its cheaper), but only after you have had a consultation with an attorney to know where you stand. Mediators don't represent you or your interests. Go for 50-50 custody. It will keep you in your children's lives and lessen your child support.

We're all here for you Grid.


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## happyman64

All prayers are welcome David. They always help!


----------



## turnera

gridcom said:


> Sadly, the fact of the matter is that my wife is addicted to another man. It has consumed her. She knows it but doesn't want to do anything about it.
> 
> She ended up going anyway.
> 
> I suspected she may have just said that because she cant afford to live without me, that she essentially wants to use me for my money and my parenting and she will otherwise have no use for me.
> 
> I spoke to the nice woman from Retrouvaille from last night and she told me the same thing. She said one of the reasons she turned it around was that her husband made it HARD on her, that she couldnt live with the consequences and that it sounded like I've made it too easy on my wife.
> 
> My wife is PISSED at me for how I reacted last night. Never mind what she did, but it's about how I reacted to what she did.
> 
> I read Buttpunch's entire thread and he handled his situation exactly the opposite to how I handled mine. Honor to him. Seriously. I was completely fascinated how he handled himself.
> 
> I feel overwhelmed with weakness and helplessness. I can do NOTHING to save my family.
> 
> Her friends that she talks to about this are a selective bunch and she doesnt tell them the straight story. She tells them the parts that make her look like a victim and me like an animal.


So I'm hoping you see - and those reading along can see - that the strong swift early action would have been what changed this, turned it around, right? I'm not trying to rub it in, but moreso trying to warn others coming here that you are _one more example_ of why you can't nice your cheating spouse back. What I highlighted above - her attitude, her righteousness, her fearlessness - would likely never have happened had you just kicked her out when you first found out. And then made her EARN her way back into the family. One thing I would do, though, is contact all her friends and family and inform them exactly WHY you are now divorcing. Let them hear the TRUTH this time. 

Anyway, I'm sorry it didn't work out, but I daresay you'll be in a better place in a year from now. You'll see there ARE women out there who will appreciate you and make you glad to wake up in the morning.


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## Pluto2

I second full and truthful exposure.


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## turnera

gridcom said:


> There is one guy here in town who got a divorce. Also had a 10 year old daughter. You see him at events and you feel like he's got the plague. His identity is "the divorced" guy. I dont want to be like that
> 
> This is truly awful


Now, grid, you DO have control over this. How? By going right up to people, acknowledging what happened to you, with a big healthy dose of 'what're you gonna do' and a smile, which would make everyone more comfortable, get the topic out in the open, and then it's all over with. You're one of the team again.


----------



## gridcom

Pluto2 said:


> I had hoped that her willingness to go to R'ville meant that part of her wanted to heal the marriage.


I think that part of her wanted to heal the marriage. I think she knows that this is a shame, all of it. I think, although she'd never admit it to me, she knows that this was a marriage worth saving. That we were still very compatible, still very much aligned on a personal level. That's the frustrating thing. When we werent fighting for or about the marriage, we were still getting along just fine and enjoying each others company. 

When we went to Retrouvaille, and people commented on us sleeping in the same bed, I felt like "Yeah, and we drove here together too, and we do things as a family still all the time, and we make small talk in the house, and we went to concerts this summer, and we...and we...and we....."

The problem, however, is that she is addicted to the idea of what someone earlier described as the fantasy world of "unicorns and rainbows". She didn't work hard enough to unhook his claws from her heart. She pined for him and then, ultimately, followed through with actions. As many, many people warned here, it was inevitable that as long as they worked together this was bound to happen. 

She claims that she tried to fix the marriage but how can that be true when she still had this man very much in her orbit. She wanted to fix her marriage, but not really. She wanted to try and fix it without letting the other end go.

Regardless, we are past that now. All of your words these last few days have been helpful. Happyman, that is terrible news. I dont know what to say, but I will say you are so well respected on this site. I havent read enough threads to get the impact, but I've always leaned in when you wrote on this thread. Thank you


----------



## farsidejunky

Exposure has already happened. Her family is not supportive of her A at all.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## TheTruthHurts

I'm sorry but I have to be the a55hole here. I'm glad you're back. But that "woman" isn't with her weight in lard. Finally hopefully you will begin to realize that once you accept that she only dragged this out for your money, house and to torture you. I honestly believe she is not a good or worthwhile person.

Take that hurt 2 degrees to the left and get MAD. This is now a work negotiation - take no prisoners. Do not let that b*tch take your money, house or anything without a huge FIGHT. But do it smart - you don't lead with a punch to the face. Let her keep her guard down and assume you are the weepy little broken child she BELIEVES you to be. Get a TOUGH lawyer and strategize even if you go to mediation alone - have that guy in your corner advising you. Why pay for her lube to f this as^hat in your own bed? You should be spitting nails. This is the "woman" who is hurting your kids.

Protect, protect, protect!!! Let POSOM take in - 100% - your breadwinning and spousal support role. Why would you want to part with a dime to pay for rims on his car?

Yeah I get you'll get screwed financially - but why more than you have to?

STOP BEING SO NICE! Who are you trying to impress with all your hard earned changes? She was just torturing you - she admitted that. Stop letting her drag you around by the balls.


----------



## truster

Sorry it worked out this way Grid, but it very well may be for the best. I know that those are mostly empty words to hear at this point, when you're still torn between love and hate, and missing someone and knowing there's no way you can ever trust them again.. but it's true.

There's good news, though, I think.. her unicorn and rainbows fog could be used to your advantage. Try to split quick, get 50/50 custody and reasonable conditions, while she's still chomping at the bit to get with the OM. Focus on custody and the kids now, and getting them taken care of as quickly as you can handle it.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

She treats you like a sad child. Tells you what she thinks you need to be nice to her and let her dream of her lover and real man. She thinks you're pathetic. Any feelings she has for you are out of pity for your week, sad, nice, approach to her pedestal. You mistake this for live and caring. She doesn't care - she despises you.


----------



## turnera

gridcom said:


> My father was 44 when he died. I will be 44 this Sunday. I met my wife a month after my father died, in 1991. This has been by far the worst year of my life. At 44, I feel like I am now entering the phase in my life that I could drop dead any minute. I feel mortal. I feel like time is running out. I feel like the life I made for me and my family, all the work and effort and focus I've poured into the last 18 years of my professional life, was a mistake. EDIT: "a waste"
> 
> I guess my point is I don't know why I can't get up and have the Theme from Rocky blasting my head. It took this event to demonstrate to me how much my family means to me, and it's very clear how I took it all for granted. Shame on me. Really.


Because you need to be on some antidepressants temporarily to help you get through this horrible thing. Please consider it.


----------



## just got it 55

TheTruthHurts said:


> She treats you like a sad child. Tells you what she thinks you need to be nice to her and let her dream of her lover and real man. She thinks you're pathetic. Any feelings she has for you are out of pity for your week, sad, nice, approach to her pedestal. You mistake this for live and caring. She doesn't care - she despises you.


I am sure he feels and gets all this and post just like it


But to me it's simply not helpful at this point

Grid will get there He knows he has to

55


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

It's why there was such a huge argument derail in your thread. You cannot work on things with another person still in the picture. Sorry grid, you did EVERYTHING possible to save your family and marriage. 

Go see your doctor and have him check you for signs of depression. Stay away from liquor and fight for your kids. Make sure they understand this isn't what you want, but it is necessary. Be quick and decisive. She has committed to leaving you for this other man, get the paperwork signed and done as quickly as possible. Take advantage of the affair fog and she may give up primary custody so, she can be single with no strings attached.


----------



## turnera

farsidejunky said:


> Exposure has already happened. Her family is not supportive of her A at all.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Yes, but he says that she's been giving half-truths to everyone to paint him poorly. Let him set the record straight. Let him talk about the addiction. Let them see her in THAT light. Let there be a little bit of uncomfortableness in HER friends' circle.


----------



## LongWalk

Get the divorce rolling.

Start playing the drums. Maybe teach your daughter to play the guitar. Sit with her in front a YouTube instructional video and do each lesson together. You can forget the pain in activities.

Meet up with HappyMan in real life. He is a great poster. The news of his illness will be a blow to many on TAM. 

My mother is dying of a lung disease. Over the Thanksgiving week we played Scrabble over and over. She drinks whisky every night to sleep. At 85 she has lived a full life but doesn't want to go. On the other hand my daughters are 18 and 20. It's like the Byrds song.

At 44 you are just young enough to turn it all around.

I don't think you should live to show your wife that she is making a mistake. Take this divorce as fresh start.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

just got it 55 said:


> TheTruthHurts said:
> 
> 
> 
> She treats you like a sad child. Tells you what she thinks you need to be nice to her and let her dream of her lover and real man. She thinks you're pathetic. Any feelings she has for you are out of pity for your week, sad, nice, approach to her pedestal. You mistake this for live and caring. She doesn't care - she despises you.
> 
> 
> 
> I am sure he feels and gets all this and post just like it
> 
> 
> But to me it's simply not helpful at this point
> 
> Grid will get there He knows he has to
> 
> 55
Click to expand...

I'm positive he DOES NOT get this. He is a tough negotiator by trade. Where is that part of him? She criticized it so he is trying to dismantle it and disown it for her.


----------



## Pluto2

gridcom said:


> I think that part of her wanted to heal the marriage. I think she knows that this is a shame, all of it. I think, although she'd never admit it to me, she knows that this was a marriage worth saving. That we were still very compatible, still very much aligned on a personal level. That's the frustrating thing. When we werent fighting for or about the marriage, we were still getting along just fine and enjoying each others company.
> 
> When we went to Retrouvaille, and people commented on us sleeping in the same bed, I felt like "Yeah, and we drove here together too, and we do things as a family still all the time, and we make small talk in the house, and we went to concerts this summer, and we...and we...and we....."
> 
> The problem, however, is that she is addicted to the idea of what someone earlier described as the fantasy world of "unicorns and rainbows". She didn't work hard enough to unhook his claws from her heart. She pined for him and then, ultimately, followed through with actions. As many, many people warned here, it was inevitable that as long as they worked together this was bound to happen.
> 
> She claims that she tried to fix the marriage but how can that be true when she still had this man very much in her orbit. She wanted to fix her marriage, but not really. She wanted to try and fix it without letting the other end go.
> 
> Regardless, we are past that now. All of your words these last few days have been helpful. Happyman, that is terrible news. I dont know what to say, but I will say you are so well respected on this site. I havent read enough threads to get the impact, but I've always leaned in when you wrote on this thread. Thank you


I do not share your view of your W.

You are still seeing in her what you want her to be like. You want her to be someone who tried to fix the marriage, but succumbed to the power of the OM. At best, she wanted to be able to say in public that she tried. There was no effort.

ETA:I'm not saying this to beat up on your W, but to help you detach from a toxic relationship.


----------



## just got it 55

phillybeffandswiss said:


> It's why there was such a huge argument derail in your thread. You cannot work on things with another person still in the picture. Sorry grid, you did EVERYTHING possible to save your family and marriage.
> 
> Go see your doctor and have him check you for signs of depression. Stay away from liquor and fight for your kids. Make sure they understand this isn't what you want, but it is necessary. Be quick and decisive. She has committed to leaving you for this other man, get the paperwork signed and done as quickly as possible. Take advantage of the affair fog and she may give up primary custody so, she can be single with no strings attached.


This is helpful It focuses on things Grid CAN control

55


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Pluto2 said it so much nicer that me


----------



## bfree

happyman64 said:


> All prayers are welcome David. They always help!


You and your family will be added to our prayer list HP. God bless.

Bill aka bfree


----------



## turnera

LongWalk said:


> Get the divorce rolling.
> 
> Start playing the drums. Maybe teach your daughter to play the guitar.


Or the drums. My DD played the drums, and she loved it, cuz it made her 'cool,' lol.

Plus, she'd love to have that connection with you.


----------



## Pluto2

My eldest DD plays the drums and finds them very therapeutic. She also has a button that says "I like to hit things with sticks"


----------



## bfree

gridcom said:


> I think that part of her wanted to heal the marriage. I think she knows that this is a shame, all of it. I think, although she'd never admit it to me, she knows that this was a marriage worth saving. That we were still very compatible, still very much aligned on a personal level. That's the frustrating thing. When we werent fighting for or about the marriage, we were still getting along just fine and enjoying each others company.
> 
> When we went to Retrouvaille, and people commented on us sleeping in the same bed, I felt like "Yeah, and we drove here together too, and we do things as a family still all the time, and we make small talk in the house, and we went to concerts this summer, and we...and we...and we....."
> 
> The problem, however, is that she is addicted to the idea of what someone earlier described as the fantasy world of "unicorns and rainbows". She didn't work hard enough to unhook his claws from her heart. She pined for him and then, ultimately, followed through with actions. As many, many people warned here, it was inevitable that as long as they worked together this was bound to happen.
> 
> She claims that she tried to fix the marriage but how can that be true when she still had this man very much in her orbit. She wanted to fix her marriage, but not really. She wanted to try and fix it without letting the other end go.
> 
> Regardless, we are past that now. All of your words these last few days have been helpful. Happyman, that is terrible news. I dont know what to say, but I will say you are so well respected on this site. I havent read enough threads to get the impact, but I've always leaned in when you wrote on this thread. Thank you


Let me correct you on this point. She didn't want to fix the marriage. She wanted the marriage...and you...to be fixed for her. The fact is that she couldn't do anything to fix the marriage because her attention was never on the marriage. It was on the other man. The only way this could have possibly had a different outcome is if you had gone totally nuclear and got him fired or her fired, a suggestion made by some in the "fire and brimstone" crowd. Instead you treated her with respect, dignity and maturity. Fact is she proved she wasn't adult enough to deserve that kind of treatment. For that you can hold your head high. You took the high road, she sunk to new depths.


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## just got it 55

I changed my AVATAR to support HM64

Please follow suit and join in

Thanks

55


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## happyman64

Grid

When you really look at your wife her actions do not match up to the words coming out of her mouth.

She talked a good game but when it came time to truly focus on the marriage she does not have it in her.

Don't be angry at her or yourself. Be disappointed in her.

The sooner you refocus on yourself and your kids the sooner you will realize that your wife is no longer a partner nor a friend.

You can coparent with her. That is just fine.

But friends don't lie to each other. Friends don't hide their actions from one another.

She is not your friend.

So deal with her as someone you used to know......

She needs to feel that. 

And you now need to allow that to happen. Being nice will eventually kill you.

Are you ready to walk on your own?

HM


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## MRR

gridcom said:


> I think that part of her wanted to heal the marriage. I think she knows that this is a shame, all of it. I think, although she'd never admit it to me, she knows that this was a marriage worth saving. That we were still very compatible, still very much aligned on a personal level. That's the frustrating thing. When we werent fighting for or about the marriage, we were still getting along just fine and enjoying each others company.
> 
> When we went to Retrouvaille, and people commented on us sleeping in the same bed, I felt like "Yeah, and we drove here together too, and we do things as a family still all the time, and we make small talk in the house, and we went to concerts this summer, and we...and we...and we....."
> 
> The problem, however, is that she is addicted to the idea of what someone earlier described as the fantasy world of "unicorns and rainbows". She didn't work hard enough to unhook his claws from her heart. She pined for him and then, ultimately, followed through with actions. As many, many people warned here, it was inevitable that as long as they worked together this was bound to happen.
> 
> She claims that she tried to fix the marriage but how can that be true when she still had this man very much in her orbit. She wanted to fix her marriage, but not really. She wanted to try and fix it without letting the other end go.
> 
> Regardless, we are past that now. All of your words these last few days have been helpful. Happyman, that is terrible news. I dont know what to say, but I will say you are so well respected on this site. I havent read enough threads to get the impact, but I've always leaned in when you wrote on this thread. Thank you



Quit thinking you 'know she wanted to fix the marriage'. You do not know anything and 99% of the stuff she TOLD you was untrue. She cannot support herself so she continues leading you on for how many months? So you pay the bills while she loves someone else. 

Stop talking to her, stop fighting with her. Everything you have done since this thread started has made you WEAK in her eyes. She never was coming back as you just got weaker and weaker in your actions and words. Yeah, you lashed out in anger here and there, but that is also a huge weakness. 

The BEST thing you can do right now is make her move out and DO NOT DISCUSS ANYTHING with her. Just please stop talking to her. Spend time with your kids, exercising, reading (Mark Manson-- attracting women through honesty; Married Man Sex Primer, etc). 

Find a mantra and repeat it to yourself. A good one, something about strength, becoming the best version of yourself. Something that carries you. 

Please. This has been just brutal to watch. Your girls do not need a crybaby for a dad, they need a dad. You cannot control what they have for a mom--- but you can show them their father is a man.


----------



## tom67

Grid I said this months back and I'll say it one last time...
Tell her to move in with him.
Help her pack.
What the [email protected] is preventing her from doing this.
Take care of YOU and the kids will be fine over time.


----------



## Chuck71

Grid..... :smthumbup: C'mon over. Have a beer, he!! make it 11. Listen... we're the exact same age. You fought a galliant fight. Your story will go down in the TAM archives. Piggy backing what HM64 stated... remember Pink Floyd's Comfortably Numb.... the part where it says "the child is grown, the dream is gone?"

Given enough time... anyone can pick apart someone's flaws. Most workplace evaluations are not done to gauge your progress, it is to form a paper trail of reason to fire / lay someone off. Same thing with gaslighting. You were not perfect and you never said you were. Question..... did you want to save the M for your kids stability or did you really want your POSWW back?

You will fall down the rabbit hole now. It's a dark and nasty place. I was there three years ago. You will come out a different person. You fought like Rocky (the first Rocky).... you finished the fight, you didn't win. But you have nothing more to prove..... to anyone. 

Take the advice others have given you. TAM helped me the most when I was in that dark place. Posting on other's thread's did freaking wonders for me. When you start posting on other threads more than yours..... I have always said, you are well on the road to recovery.

PM me anytime just to vent.... 

Never forget... you were a fighter...... she was a chicken schit. There are much more mature ways to air grievances than to bonk another person.


----------



## ButtPunch

Chuck71 said:


> Grid..... :smthumbup: C'mon over. Have a beer, he!! make it 11. Listen... we're the exact same age. You fought a galliant fight. Your story will go down in the TAM archives. Piggy backing what HM64 stated... remember Pink Floyd's Comfortably Numb.... the part where it says "the child is grown, the dream is gone?"
> 
> Given enough time... anyone can pick apart someone's flaws. Most workplace evaluations are not done to gauge your progress, it is to form a paper trail of reason to fire / lay someone off. Same thing with gaslighting. You were not perfect and you never said you were. Question..... did you want to save the M for your kids stability or did you really want your POSWW back?
> 
> You will fall down the rabbit hole now. It's a dark and nasty place. I was there three years ago. You will come out a different person. You fought like Rocky (the first Rocky).... you finished the fight, you didn't win. But you have nothing more to prove..... to anyone.
> 
> Take the advice others have given you. TAM helped me the most when I was in that dark place. Posting on other's thread's did freaking wonders for me. When you start posting on other threads more than yours..... I have always said, you are well on the road to recovery.
> 
> PM me anytime just to vent....
> 
> Never forget... you were a fighter...... she was a chicken schit. There are much more mature ways to air grievances than to bonk another person.


She did him a favor but he just doesn't see it yet.

Now if Grid focuses on himself and works on the things he needs to correct....he can go find a new woman who will not be irresponsible, or selfish, or a liar, or a cheat. A woman that will be happy to meet his needs so Grid doesn't have to tote the entire relationship on his back. Someone to support him and give him strength not take it away.

It won't be long and Grid will be passing his wisdom to the new OPs.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Step 1: 180 and detach

Please re-read your thread.

Don't worry about being "that divorced guy". Many of those married fellas will envy you.

And the women will think "he's such a good father!"

because you are.


----------



## Bibi1031

Pluto2 said:


> I second full and truthful exposure.



I did that and I still lost. Nothing will work if the wondering spouse has emotionally left the building (marriage). It doesn't matter how many right or wrong things the betrayed has done when the other person Detached and has been long gone emotionally. That is the ugly truth. Most of us have lost the war by the time the speech is given plain and simple. 

So please stop thinking there is a fool proof way of getting a betrayed spouse back. Their is no magic formula. There is no magic cure or pill. 

It's a long hard process either way and there is NO guarantee that the marriage will survive regardless of the path taken. The real ugly truth is that VERY few marriages survive adultery. You can count the percentage in the singles digit. It's that devastating.

Bibi


----------



## Sammy64

just got it 55 said:


> I changed my AVATAR to support HM64
> 
> Please follow suit and join in
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 55



I support HM64 !!!! 

Sammy64 / Dan


----------



## just got it 55

Bibi1031 said:


> I did that and I still lost. Nothing will work if the wondering spouse has emotionally left the building (marriage). It doesn't matter how many right or wrong things the betrayed has done when the other person Detached and has been long gone emotionally. That is the ugly truth. Most of us have lost the war by the time the speech is given plain and simple.
> 
> So please stop thinking there is a fool proof way of getting a betrayed spouse back. Their is no magic formula. There is no magic cure or pill.
> 
> It's a long hard process either way and there is guarantee that the marriage will survive regardless of the path taken. The real ugly truth is that VERY few marriages survive adultery. You can count the percentage in the singles digit. It's that devastating.
> 
> Bibi


Bibi The complete exposure is for others to know Grid in not a POS

Just to clarify why they are divorcing.

55


----------



## Chaparral

Get a heavy duty rubber band and put it on your wrist. Get a copy of the 180. Every time you mess up the 180 give yourself a good sting. The 180 IS the fastest way to heal. See your doctor.

Teach your girls the drums. Teach them some other instruments. Work on some Christmas music. Play those drums loud. I showed my son how to play Wild Thing and Louie Louie on the bass. It's a blast while one is on the drums give the other one some bongos and a tambourine. Have fun if it kills you. Fake it till you make it.


----------



## Pluto2

just got it 55 said:


> Bibi The complete exposure is for others to know Grid in not a POS
> 
> Just to clarify why they are divorcing.
> 
> 55


Agree completely,

Grid needs all the ammo he can to regain his equilibrium and telling the truth to as many-relevant-people can go a long way in helping that happen.


----------



## Chuck71

happyman64 said:


> Grid
> 
> There comes a point in our lives where the original dreams we had change.
> 
> Reality sets in.
> 
> We might say that all our work was a "waste" at that point.
> 
> I'm right there with you my friend.
> 
> I was diagnosed with stage 4 esophageal cancer only 3 weeks ago. My outcome does not look good.
> 
> I sat in the exam room at Sloan Kettering this Monday morning with my wife of 23 years, my mother, my twin sister and younger sister when the Doctor told me to get my affairs in order.
> 
> I am angry. I am sad. But then I think of my goals in life.
> 
> I found a woman who loved me for over 30 years. She gave me 3 beautiful girls 21, 15 & 14 and I have had the privilege to watch them grow up into young woman and begin chasing their dreams.
> 
> I attained my goals though they have certainly changed. I will not attain some of them now but I have little or no control over those goals now.
> 
> I understand your heart is broken. But you did not break it. There comes a time in certain relationships where the cycle of "hurt" needs to end.
> 
> I urge you to end it. Divorce your wife. Who cares that she wants to be with the other man. Let her go!
> 
> Because I truly believe we only control our own actions. Her actions and goals have not matched yours for a good amount of time.
> 
> Focus right now on what is in front of you.
> 
> 
> Yourself. Your children. Your job.
> 
> Let your wife go. She needs to live and feel the consequences for the decisions she has made this past year.
> 
> Will it hurt to see her with someone else? Yes. You have felt that hurt for months now. Stop letting her do that to you.
> 
> Is all this crap worth having a heart attack over? No.
> 
> My Dad is very upset and I worry about his health failing over my current situation.
> 
> I gave him a hug and told him not to get sick over me. I reminded him what a great life I have had, that I currently have and that my wife and kids would need him and my mother more than ever.
> 
> I reminded him that should be his focus.
> 
> So I am reminding you on where you should focus.
> 
> Yourself. Your kids. Your job.
> 
> Your wife has felt no consequences for her hurtful decisions and actions.
> 
> Let Her Go so maybe someday she grows up. She is of no use to you or your children unless she grows up.
> 
> Good Luck and maybe I'll see on the streets in NYC soon. :wink2:
> 
> HM


HM64.... since you do not post on my thread in LaD, I will have to say this here. T/J be damned...

HUGS brother...... this type of schit should not happen to good people. EVER.... Maybe that is why so many

question faith. I feel your pain and anger.

My mom had triple by-pass in August, a stroke (left side) in November. GI doctor found cancer growth

in her stomach. She has Medicare..... can't get an appointment until late January.

You aren't alone in the cancer fight. 

I recently found out I too, have cancer. When they biopsied it, I was there all alone.

I have no family but mom and she is now more my daughter than mom. I have no spouse, no kids. No family.

Sitting in that chair..... I honestly thought.... if it is the "bad" kind.... oh well.... I wouldn't be missed anyway.

You are treasured to have the family you have..... kind of what I sought years ago. I just M the wrong person.

I swear I hope you grab cancer by the throat, run it up a wall, grab it's balls and stomp on them, 

ram your middle finger up it's nose and smile...... "had enough yet punk"

You're a warrior..... one thing I wouldn't have to say to you is "Never Surrender" ...... I won't either.

We live for the fight when that's all that we've got (Bon Jovi, Living on a Prayer)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BArHKQmu9lI


----------



## Bibi1031

Pluto2 said:


> Agree completely,
> 
> Grid needs all the ammo he can to regain his equilibrium and telling the truth to as many-relevant-people can go a long way in helping that happen.


OH I completely agree, but some older posters here think that if things are not done the go nuclear on the WS way; the betrayed spouse doesn't stand a chance of saving the marriage and that is just not true. It's not about what the betrayed spouse does initially that determines the outcome. It's what the WS does. 

Coming clean, ending affair and having no contact with affair partner is what helps to focus on repairing the marriage. That as well as counciling, transparency and most of all strength and commitment to the process of reconciliation. Going through the motions without ALL of these components is futile and the marriage is doomed. 

Sure one can go nuclear and initially get the WS to accept these terms, but being coerced into it only makes them go through the motions and 
really not internalize and honor the process to have a successful end result. 

That is why regardless of how the BS reacts does not affect the end result. Most of the hard, long, stressful process falls on the weaker spouse, the WS.


----------



## gridcom

Bibi1031 said:


> Coming clean, ending affair and having no contact with affair partner is what helps to focus on repairing the marriage. That as well as counciling, transparency and most of all strength and commitment to the process of reconciliation. Going through the motions without ALL of these components is futile and the marriage is doomed.


F#ckin' A Right.


----------



## just got it 55

Chuck71 said:


> HM64.... since you do not post on my thread in LaD, I will have to say this here. T/J be damned...
> 
> HUGS brother...... this type of schit should not happen to good people. EVER.... Maybe that is why so many
> 
> question faith. I feel your pain and anger.
> 
> My mom had triple by-pass in August, a stroke (left side) in November. GI doctor found cancer growth
> 
> in her stomach. She has Medicare..... can't get an appointment until late January.
> 
> You aren't alone in the cancer fight.
> 
> I recently found out I too, have cancer. When they biopsied it, I was there all alone.
> 
> I have no family but mom and she is now more my daughter than mom. I have no spouse, no kids. No family.
> 
> Sitting in that chair..... I honestly thought.... if it is the "bad" kind.... oh well.... I wouldn't be missed anyway.
> 
> You are treasured to have the family you have..... kind of what I sought years ago. I just M the wrong person.
> 
> I swear I hope you grab cancer by the throat, run it up a wall, grab it's balls and stomp on them,
> 
> ram your middle finger up it's nose and smile...... "had enough yet punk"
> 
> You're a warrior..... one thing I wouldn't have to say to you is "Never Surrender" ...... I won't either.
> 
> We live for the fight when that's all that we've got (Bon Jovi, Living on a Prayer)
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BArHKQmu9lI


Jesus Chuck Now I need two AVATARS

55


----------



## farsidejunky

just got it 55 said:


> Jesus Chuck Now I need two AVATARS
> 
> 55


Dafuq, Chuck? When did this happen???

Wow, brother...

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## gridcom

ButtPunch said:


> She did him a favor but he just doesn't see it yet.
> 
> Now if Grid focuses on himself and works on the things he needs to correct....he can go find a new woman who will not be irresponsible, or selfish, or a liar, or a cheat. A woman that will be happy to meet his needs so Grid doesn't have to tote the entire relationship on his back. Someone to support him and give him strength not take it away.
> 
> It won't be long and Grid will be passing his wisdom to the new OPs.


Thank you for this. Before I read your thread, sometimes you'd post and it would piss me off. You handled your situation so well. Even your wife posted on my thread. 

I need some time to get to 50,000 feet but I am determined to get out of this mud. My heart is very broken. I didnt want to lose my family (this specific foursome). I love my wife, even now. It's hard to rationalize. 

I hope yesterday was my rock bottom.


----------



## GusPolinski

So sorry to read the latest updates, @gridcom.

No one _wanted_ this to happen... but we all knew it would.

Sorry man.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Yeah the big C does suck - so sorry you've got a bad one HM64. You've got a good attitude though - even if you are faking and making the best of it. Chuck71 - hoping yours isn't too aggressive... Going in for an MRI myself to see if I've got a secondary C. Got diagnosed in 2011 with blood cancer but it's slower so I have several years probably.

My middle is your youngest one's age - 14. Hope to get my youngest 12 year kids well on their way in life. We'll see.

Sorry Gridcon - yes I'm direct but I don't think in a way you can't handle. Some of us have expiration dates and hate to watch people in limbo particularly when it's not their fault and there's nothing they can do about it. So yes I am a bit more decisive these days and more inclined to cut my losses and focus on moving to a better place ASAP... wonder why?


----------



## just got it 55

gridcom said:


> Thank you for this. Before I read your thread, sometimes you'd post and it would piss me off. You handled your situation so well. Even your wife posted on my thread.
> 
> I need some time to get to 50,000 feet but I am determined to get out of this mud. My heart is very broken. I didnt want to lose my family (this specific foursome). I love my wife, even now. It's hard to rationalize.
> 
> I hope yesterday was my rock bottom.


Grid if not what then ??

Yes 50Kft is what you need.

55


----------



## Chuck71

gridcom said:


> I think that part of her wanted to heal the marriage. I think she knows that this is a shame, all of it. I think, although she'd never admit it to me, she knows that this was a marriage worth saving. That we were still very compatible, still very much aligned on a personal level. That's the frustrating thing. When we werent fighting for or about the marriage, we were still getting along just fine and enjoying each others company.
> 
> When we went to Retrouvaille, and people commented on us sleeping in the same bed, I felt like "Yeah, and we drove here together too, and we do things as a family still all the time, and we make small talk in the house, and we went to concerts this summer, and we...and we...and we....."
> 
> The problem, however, is that she is addicted to the idea of what someone earlier described as the fantasy world of "unicorns and rainbows". She didn't work hard enough to unhook his claws from her heart. She pined for him and then, ultimately, followed through with actions. As many, many people warned here, it was inevitable that as long as they worked together this was bound to happen.
> 
> She claims that she tried to fix the marriage but how can that be true when she still had this man very much in her orbit. She wanted to fix her marriage, but not really. She wanted to try and fix it without letting the other end go.
> 
> Regardless, we are past that now. All of your words these last few days have been helpful. Happyman, that is terrible news. I dont know what to say, but I will say you are so well respected on this site. I havent read enough threads to get the impact, but I've always leaned in when you wrote on this thread. Thank you


It was savable ...... but it took two. She was under the influence of the "new must be better" like Ms are like

smart phones??? WTF??

XW and I always communicate.... just not about our problems. We were both guilty there.

On the outside, no one knew my XW and I had any issues at all. We got along on multiple levels.

Your POSWW claimed she fixed it by pointing out every single flaw you EVER had and expected you to read 

her mind to correct them. Crazy huh.... but true.

POSWW wanted to put in a half-a$$ed effort and just in case it didn't work, she had POSOM ready to go.....

I told my XW before the D.... if she put in 10% to my 110%, we could save this M.

She couldn't give even that. I let her go. Like I said, as soon as I left the house, who began reaching....

Be VERY wary of this when her POSOM gets tired of her. No guy his age will "fully" take on an older

woman AND two kids. It doesn't work that way. He will tire of her.... I promise you that.

Oh..... keep in mind, the younger guy did get "sloppy seconds" *schit eating grin*


----------



## turnera

grid, are you making plans to add new activities to your life? See an IC? Set one up for the kids? Volunteer? That will help keep worse days away.


----------



## gridcom

Chuck71 said:


> It was savable ...... but it took two. She was under the influence of the "new must be better" like Ms are like
> 
> smart phones??? WTF??
> 
> XW and I always communicate.... just not about our problems. We were both guilty there.
> 
> On the outside, no one knew my XW and I had any issues at all. We got along on multiple levels.
> 
> Your POSWW claimed she fixed it by pointing out every single flaw you EVER had and expected you to read
> 
> her mind to correct them. Crazy huh.... but true.
> 
> POSWW wanted to put in a half-a$$ed effort and just in case it didn't work, she had POSOM ready to go.....
> 
> I told my XW before the D.... if she put in 10% to my 110%, we could save this M.
> 
> She couldn't give even that. I let her go. Like I said, as soon as I left the house, who began reaching....
> 
> Be VERY wary of this when her POSOM gets tired of her. No guy his age will "fully" take on an older
> 
> woman AND two kids. It doesn't work that way. He will tire of her.... I promise you that.
> 
> Oh..... keep in mind, the younger guy did get "sloppy seconds" *schit eating grin*


I think he's not necc. looking to have a full blown relationship with my wife, by the way. I think was looking to have some fun, she's fun, boom. I think she see's him as the man of her dreams and hopes she can convince him to feel the same way. He's 30 and carefree. He works at Starbucks to makes ends meet. He had a child out of wedlock. I think she is worried about him rejecting all of her baggage, and he should if he had half a brain. The fact that he had an affair with a woman in a troubled marriage with two kids says a lot about what type of person he is, doesn't it? 

When I asked my wife on Thansgiving to decide if I am the love of her life or not, she (eventually) told me I was not. This made me laugh. 20 years for you to decide that? And that decision has nothing to do with OM, huh? Okie then.....


----------



## farsidejunky

Do you have a plan laid out yet, Grid, or still trying to swallow this bitter pill?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## just got it 55

gridcom said:


> I think he's not necc. looking to have a full blown relationship with my wife, by the way. I think was looking to have some fun, she's fun, boom. I think she see's him as the man of her dreams and hopes she can convince him to feel the same way. He's 30 and carefree. He works at Starbucks to makes ends meet. He had a child out of wedlock. I think she is worried about him rejecting all of her baggage, and he should if he had half a brain. The fact that he had an affair with a woman in a troubled marriage with two kids says a lot about what type of person he is, doesn't it?
> 
> *When I asked my wife on Thansgiving to decide if I am the love of her life or not, she (eventually) told me I was not. This made me laugh. 20 years for you to decide that? And that decision has nothing to do with OM, huh? Okie then.....*


*
*

Grid those kinds of convos are over now right ??

55


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> Thank you for this. Before I read your thread, sometimes you'd post and it would piss me off. You handled your situation so well. Even your wife posted on my thread.
> 
> I need some time to get to 50,000 feet but I am determined to get out of this mud. My heart is very broken. I didnt want to lose my family (this specific foursome). I love my wife, even now. It's hard to rationalize.
> 
> I hope yesterday was my rock bottom.


Grid

Your wife isn't who you thought she was. You love the dream of her, not the real her (selfish cheater). Once you get to 50,000 ft you will see her true self and you will be thankful she is gone.


----------



## gridcom

My plan is to set up the mediation and proceed with that. I have three weeks of work left in my job (which I have really let fall by the wayside) and I really need to focus on work right now. Come X-Mas break, I dont know what I will do for 16 days off and sitting around this house. Hope I can spend time with the kids. We live in a small house and neither one of us is moving out. I would love to be able to detach. Monday night was brutal. It was like D-Day all over again. I'm still in shock, as I had kind of convinced myself that she was at least staying true to NC even if she wasn't moving along at the speed I would have wanted in R.. During Retrouvaille, they made an analogy that when you venture deep into the woods, it takes time. When you want to come out of the woods, you dont just turn around and see the edge of the woods just a few yards ahead of you. In other words, it took a long time for the marriage to disolve and it was going to take time for it to be repaired. And I was OK with that, impatient as I am. I was really hoping, to be honest, we could add sex back into the diet as soon as possible, because, you know....... I'd like to have sex again soon. 

Anyway, do I have a plan? Clearly defined? I guess I do, it's just can I stick to it without passing her in the hallway and having feelings of both love and hate overwhelm me. I am trying.


----------



## Chuck71

ButtPunch said:


> She did him a favor but he just doesn't see it yet.
> 
> Now if Grid focuses on himself and works on the things he needs to correct....he can go find a new woman who will not be irresponsible, or selfish, or a liar, or a cheat. A woman that will be happy to meet his needs so Grid doesn't have to tote the entire relationship on his back. Someone to support him and give him strength not take it away.
> 
> It won't be long and Grid will be passing his wisdom to the new OPs.


Yep....... 'ol Mom Socrates told me in December '12 "She did you a favor, she set you free"

The maker of mashed potatoes and PB n J sandwiches was then a scholar!

I was working on my PhD in psychology and mom, a high school graduate.... schooled me.....


----------



## ButtPunch

Don't you fu*king dare have sex with her ever again.

Trust me on this one Grid.

That's the quickest way down from 50,000 ft.


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## gridcom

ButtPunch said:


> Don't you fu*king dare have sex with her ever again.
> 
> Trust me on this one Grid.
> 
> That's the quickest way down from 50,000 ft.


Yep. Sigh. It might be a mighty long time before I have sex again. Kind of blows pretty hard, but I am willing to respect the process even if my wife isn't. I value integrity.


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## ThreeStrikes

Stop sleeping together in the same bed.

Alternate nights on the couch, get an air mattress, whatever.

Separate finances as much as possible.

Be calm and dispassionate in all conversations with her. No more emotions. Certainly no anger. It's co-parenting mode from here on out. NO RELATIONSHIP TALK.

Suffer in solitude like a man. We've all been there.

Get *Siddartha* by Herman Hesse. Its a short little book. You can finish in 16 days flat. 

Start looking for a place to live. Sounds like neither of you will be able to afford that house alone.

Edit: I was unable to properly detach until I moved out. I think physical distance is almost a requirement.


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## farsidejunky

Grid, this has been posted on TAM numerous times, but I don't know if it has been posted here. Whoever wrote this was likely in a similar situation as yours:

Just Let Them Go 

The end result? 

The end result is to respect yourself in the end, let go of the people that don't value you or respect you. That is the end result. 

The quickest way to get a cheating spouse back is to let them go with a smile on your face wishing them the best in life and hoping that everything works out in their relationship with their affair partner. Seriously, the quickest way to get them back. Nothing else works better or quicker. 

Let them go. Agree with them and their feelings, "you should be with the OM, I hope he makes you happy, good bye" Wouldn't that be true love? If you really loved your spouse, and wanted them to have what they really want in life which is the other person they're in love with, wouldn't letting them go be the approach if you really love them? Why focus on the affair or the drama associated with it? 

Just let them go. Give them their freedom. 

You can take a good hard look at yourself in the mirror everyday and improve yourself but do it for you, not for someone else, the changes will never stick when it's done for someone else, do it for your benefit and you will probably make those changes last much longer if not indefinitely - because it's for your benefit and you realize the importance and value in that benefit because YOU are involved. 

I will never tell someone to change to entice a WAW back when she's been cheating on him. I don't care how bad a marriage, there is never an excuse for cheating. That is a personal decision that someone makes to cheat on their spouse. If a marriage is really bad, leave, get a divorce, speak up to your spouse and tell them flat out "this marriage sucks and if things don't change I'm going to leave you and find someone better" and if things don't improve, leave that person. But cheating, no excuses. 

Think about cheating. A wayward spouse who cheats on their spouse goes behind their back, secretly, telling lies, feeling guilty, getting angry at their spouse for getting in the way of their fantasies but never owning up to their actions, never admitting what they're doing. If a person who cheats on their spouse felt justified in their actions, why hide and go behind their spouses backs when they start cheating, why lie, why make up excuses about late nights at work and going to a friends place and sleeping over because they drank too much and any other such nonsense? 

Deep down, the cheating spouse knows there is something inherently wrong with their actions otherwise they wouldn't lie about their actions and hide what they're doing. 

Fighting the affair? For what reason? To compete with the OM or OW for your spouse? What message does that communicate to your wayward spouse? They have lots of value and you have none because now you have to compete with another person for their love? Competing with your wayward spouse's affair partner never works, it just prolongs an ugly drama filled process. 

And for your last point, The easiest way to show you will not tolerate cheating in your relationship is to let that person go. That is the easiest and most effective way to show this. "Look wife/husband, I won't be in an open relationship with you, I won't give you X number of days, weeks, months to make your mind, if you really feel like you need to sit on the fence on this decision and can't decide between your affair partner and me well I will make the decision for you, you can be with them because I'm no longer an option. I love you and wish you a good life with them and hope it works out for you because it didn't work out for us. Now the best thing we can do for each other is to make this process as graceful and peaceful as possible for us and our children, I'll contact a lawyer/mediator and get started on the process of our legal separation/divorce." 

You give them what they want. You don't fight them on this issue. You agree with their feelings, they want to be with the other person, fine they should be with the other person, let them be with the other person. You will never convince a person to change their feelings with your arguments and logic. You can not find one member on this website in a situation where they are dealing with infidelity where they got their spouse to change their mind about how they feel about their affair partner. 

You can't say "don't love them, love me instead", you can't say "look at me, I'm better in every way compared to your affair partner, pick me instead of them", you can't say "you took marriage vows, you promised to love me" I agree, you don't have to make it easy for your wayward spouse to have an affair, but when you let them go, "lovingly detach", you don't have to worry about making it easy for them. 

It's no longer your concern, they can have you or them but not both and not at the same time and since they've chosen to have an affair, they've made their choice, there is no profit in fighting that decision. 

Let them go and move on with your life, that is the quickest, easiest way to get them back. 

You definitely don't support them financially and enable them, that would be weak, wussy, clingy, insecure behavior - something in you telling you that you need to support them financially while they're having an affair, hoping they'll realize how nice you are and come back to you. 

Just let them go, have them move out or you move out and live a good life without them.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## gridcom

ThreeStrikes said:


> Stop sleeping together in the same bed.
> 
> Alternate nights on the couch, get an air mattress, whatever.
> 
> Separate finances as much as possible.
> 
> Be calm and dispassionate in all conversations with her. No more emotions. Certainly no anger. It's co-parenting mode from here on out. NO RELATIONSHIP TALK.
> 
> Suffer in solitude like a man. We've all been there.
> 
> Get *Siddartha* by Herman Hesse. Its a short little book. You can finish in 16 days flat.
> 
> Start looking for a place to live. Sounds like neither of you will be able to afford that house alone.


Yeah, we havent slept in the same bed the last two nights. She can sleep elsewhere. My house, my bed. As far as I am concerned, anyway....

Being calm and dispassionate is going to be the biggest challenge. I am passionate anyway, just normally. Especially about this. 

I am confused about the finances frankly. We have stuff in her name, in my name, in both our names. I was served with papers that essentially say I have to keep things status quo. I want a lock down on the money, but X-MAs is coming, along with X-Mas bonus (a BIG chunk of my yearly earnings) I need a jacket.


----------



## Chuck71

Bibi1031 said:


> OH I completely agree, but some older posters here think that if things are not done the go nuclear on the WS way; the betrayed spouse doesn't stand a chance of saving the marriage and that is just not true. It's not about what the betrayed spouse does initially that determines the outcome. It's what the WS does.
> 
> Coming clean, ending affair and having no contact with affair partner is what helps to focus on repairing the marriage. That as well as counciling, transparency and most of all strength and commitment to the process of reconciliation. Going through the motions without ALL of these components is futile and the marriage is doomed.
> 
> Sure one can go nuclear and initially get the WS to accept these terms, but being coerced into it only makes them go through the motions and
> really not internalize and honor the process to have a successful end result.
> 
> That is why regardless of how the BS reacts does not affect the end result. Most of the hard, long, stressful process falls on the weaker spouse, the WS.


Going nuclear to many is scorched earth. In my case, had I done that (never knew if she cheated),

it would have been for me. If she wanted back, she would have had to earn it.

But infidelity, dealbreaker. I am mature enough not to cheat just because I am upset with things,

I bring them up, he!! or high water. She had a non-negotiable leading up to D.

Didn't heed it, I was done. Funny when you're done, you get more reaches than a Roman bathhouse

on New Year's Eve from the attempted WAW


----------



## karole

If you haven't already, you need to see a good attorney to protect yourself, your assets and money. Your wife is already a few steps ahead of you. As angry as she seems from your posts, she isn't going to fight fair. She will go for the jugular. (hope not though).


----------



## turnera

You've been served papers, but SHE wants to do a mediator? I'd find a lawyer, then, like yesterday.


----------



## truster

gridcom said:


> Anyway, do I have a plan? Clearly defined? I guess I do, it's just can I stick to it without passing her in the hallway and having feelings of both love and hate overwhelm me. I am trying.


That's gonna happen.. part of the garbage ****tail that is living together during divorce. I am firmly committed to divorcing my lying, cheating ex, but I still have days when necessary conversations turn into discussions, and emotions start flowing, where I kinda love her and miss her a bit. Of course, in the same moment I still hate her and know that I can't trust her an inch as well, but still, all those strong emotions at once kinda blur into one singular passion.

Anyway, the main thing is, extract yourself from those situations when they occur, and don't let em get you down in the long run. They get fewer and farther between, and as long as you're resolute on average each week you'll make progress.


----------



## Chuck71

gridcom said:


> I think he's not necc. looking to have a full blown relationship with my wife, by the way. I think was looking to have some fun, she's fun, boom. I think she see's him as the man of her dreams and hopes she can convince him to feel the same way. He's 30 and carefree. He works at Starbucks to makes ends meet. He had a child out of wedlock. I think she is worried about him rejecting all of her baggage, and he should if he had half a brain. The fact that he had an affair with a woman in a troubled marriage with two kids says a lot about what type of person he is, doesn't it?
> 
> When I asked my wife on Thansgiving to decide if I am the love of her life or not, she (eventually) told me I was not. This made me laugh. 20 years for you to decide that? And that decision has nothing to do with OM, huh? Okie then.....


Rational thought.... H with track record of 20+ years vs. a guy pumping coffee part time.... Seriously?

Until the truth is laid upon her, she can not see reality.

If she does, by you, why is she coming back? I asked you this in October.... ponder it for a bit.

I had to be showed reality by my parents, but crap, I was a teen.

Your POSWW is not a teen..... by any stretch


----------



## Chuck71

ButtPunch said:


> Don't you fu*king dare have sex with her ever again.
> 
> Trust me on this one Grid.
> 
> That's the quickest way down from 50,000 ft.


All jokes aside.... this set him back. I was there when this happened.

Well.... not in the room LOL but TAM

I warned him of this...... but he was human

then he realized the "spider webs"


----------



## gridcom

Chuck71 said:


> All jokes aside.... this set him back. I was there when this happened.
> 
> Well.... not in the room LOL but TAM
> 
> I warned him of this...... but he was human
> 
> then he realized the "spider webs"


I wasn't at 50,000 feet then. I've never been nearly that detached and emotionless. I was the one pushing for sex, even recently, as I felt the more sex we had the closer we would get.


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> I wasn't at 50,000 feet then. I've never been nearly that detached and emotionless. I was the one pushing for sex, even recently, as I felt the more sex we had the closer we would get.


I believe sex is connecting for men. I don't think that is so for women. 

They need the connection to want to have sex with you usually but not always.

The more sex you had the closer you got. That's more like the truth.

Her connection is with someone else. 

No more sex......with her.


----------



## MRR

so.....while you were going around trying to 'nice' her back, now SHE is the one who has a lawyer? 

Wow. Are you going to let her lawyer dictate how this ends for you like you let her dictate the last five or so months of your misery?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

gridcom said:


> I wasn't at 50,000 feet then. I've never been nearly that detached and emotionless. I was the one pushing for sex, even recently, as I felt the more sex we had the closer we would get.


You still aren't at 50,000. I'm reading your posts and that self loathing has reappeared. You owned your crap, but before you left you realized you BOTH sucked at communication. You accepted that some of your actions weren't good, but you weren't an abuser or an abusive husband.

You are back and starting down that same road again.


----------



## happy as a clam

gridcom said:


> I was the one pushing for sex, even recently, as I felt the more sex we had the closer we would get.


I hate to even say this, but the fact that you were actually hoping to start having sex with her again indicates to me that you really haven't fully grasped how checked-out she is on this marriage . Sorry if that's harsh.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ButtPunch

MRR said:


> so.....while you were going around trying to 'nice' her back, now SHE is the one who has a lawyer?
> 
> Wow. Are you going to let her lawyer dictate how this ends for you like you let her dictate the last five or so months of your misery?


I think Grid is aware of his eminent danger.

You need to lawyer up Grid and fight for no less than 50% custody.

Talk to your work and ask them to give you the bonus after New Years.

Mrs. Grid has a rude awakening coming called the realities of divorce.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

MRR said:


> so.....while you were going around trying to 'nice' her back, now SHE is the one who has a lawyer?


No he did all of that KNOWING she had a lawyer and filed for divorce. I don't blame him much. He was getting some HEAVY HANDED BLAME SHIFTING from a few posters and advice from one who has NEVER tasted the bitter fruit of married infidelity. This poster reminded him of his wife so, he was blinded by her inexperienced na·ive·té and followed a ton of her "NICE GUY" advice. 



> Mrs. Grid has a rude awakening coming called the realities of divorce.


Oh, I disagree. I actually think she is extremely smart and knows EXACTLY where reality lies. She hired a lawyer, told grid she was in love with this guy and filed for divorce. His wife is very calculating, I HOPE he understand that now. 


I said it before, I'll say it again, trust her actions not her words.


----------



## Evinrude58

gridcom said:


> I wasn't at 50,000 feet then. I've never been nearly that detached and emotionless. I was the one pushing for sex, even recently, as I felt the more sex we had the closer we would get.



Hysterical bonding at it's best-- Been there, done that.
You or she won't move out, you won't break off your relationship with her.....................

My ex basically forced me to pitch her out of the house by her lewd behavior. I'm glad. I'd likely have put up with her crap for the same reasons you're going to.
I AM ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that you need to find a way to kick her out of your house. With an OM the way you describe--- I honestly think that there is a da**ed good chance she will see the light when her party is over and beg for you to let her come back. But after about a year apart, you won't even consider taking back this disloyal, deceitful person. 

If you do not move or get clear of her physically, you will absolutely never recover from this divorce. If you try to be nice in the divorce, you will get screwed. They system is already against you.

Please, for your own good, you MUST not live with this person. Whatever has to be done to get away from her should be done. If it doesn't get done on your terms, it will get done when her lawyer gets done with you. She has a lawyer, it's obvious what you should do but I think you can handle that. You just need to tell your lawyer what you need and let him do his job.

Beating around the bush about this divorce is going to draw this out so long that I would be worried about your mental health. Get clear. Do it NOW. NOW NOW. NOW. NOW.
Can't stress how important it is to physically remove this person from your life.

Grid, your wife has been pretty honest with you, actually. She has told you:
1 She doesn't love you
2 She only wants to live with you to pay the bills
3 She doesn't even love you more than a young, financially strapped, destroyer of at least 2 families. 
4 She filed for divorce
5 She is absolutely not committed to reconciliation, only the process. And we both know what "committed to the process means" now, for sure.

You have to break out of this. She will string you along until she finds her a dude with more money, and that will tolerate her baggage. Guaranteed. It's obvious by her actions that you have zero value to her. 

I would give anything to be able to say what you need to hear to be able to help you break loose from this. I know it's impossible. I'm sure you feel just like I did--That the best part of you (the love you have for your wife) is being used against you. IT IS!!!!!!!

Gotta break free.


----------



## ButtPunch

phillybeffandswiss said:


> No he did all of that KNOWING she had a lawyer and filed for divorce. I don't blame him much. He was getting some HEAVY HANDED BLAME SHIFTING from a few posters and advice from one who has NEVER tasted the bitter fruit of married infidelity. This poster reminded him of his wife so, he was blinded by her inexperienced na·ive·té and followed a ton of her "NICE GUY" advice.
> 
> Oh, I disagree. I actually think she is extremely smart and knows EXACTLY where reality lies. She hired a lawyer, told grid she was in love with this guy and filed for divorce. His wife is very calculating, I HOPE he understand that now.
> 
> 
> I said it before, I'll say it again, trust her actions not her words.


I think Mrs. Grid thinks she is going to get more than what actually will occur. Her standard of living is going to drop. I agree with you that she knows what she is doing.


----------



## farsidejunky

ButtPunch said:


> I think Mrs. Grid thinks she is going to get more than what actually will occur. Her standard of living is going to drop. I agree with you that she knows what she is doing.


Yep.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## anchorwatch

Grid, is she still reading here?


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## karole

Before you even consider moving out - get a separation agreement filed to protect yourself. Please, see an attorney. It's time.


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## gridcom

anchorwatch said:


> Grid, is she still reading here?


I dont think so . I dont think she checked here more than once or twice. Who knows, though


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

ButtPunch said:


> I think Mrs. Grid thinks she is going to get more than what actually will occur. Her standard of living is going to drop. I agree with you that she knows what she is doing.





farsidejunky said:


> Yep.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


All i'll say is this, she has a lawyer and if he is even mediocre he has explained the financials to her.


anchorwatch said:


> Grid, is she still reading here?


This is why I am hedging a bit of my advice. If you watch some of her actions, it is eerily similar to what was predicted in this thread.


----------



## GusPolinski

anchorwatch said:


> Grid, is she still reading here?





gridcom said:


> I dont think so . I dont think she checked here more than once or twice. Who knows, though


Oh, she's still reading here. I can guaran-damn-tee it.

Either way, I'd advise asking a mod to move the thread over to Private. Then start locking down your phone, tablet, or whatever device you use to access TAM.


----------



## bfree

gridcom said:


> Yep. Sigh. It might be a mighty long time before I have sex again. Kind of blows pretty hard, but I am willing to respect the process even if my wife isn't. I value integrity.


And THIS is why when all is said and done you'll be okay. Her....maybe not so much...


----------



## bfree

ThreeStrikes said:


> Stop sleeping together in the same bed.
> 
> Alternate nights on the couch, get an air mattress, whatever.
> 
> Separate finances as much as possible.
> 
> Be calm and dispassionate in all conversations with her. No more emotions. Certainly no anger. It's co-parenting mode from here on out. NO RELATIONSHIP TALK.
> 
> Suffer in solitude like a man. We've all been there.
> 
> Get *Siddartha* by Herman Hesse. Its a short little book. You can finish in 16 days flat.
> 
> Start looking for a place to live. Sounds like neither of you will be able to afford that house alone.
> 
> Edit: I was unable to properly detach until I moved out. I think physical distance is almost a requirement.


Siddhartha is a great read! Highly recommended!


----------



## gridcom

I'll say this. Maybe I shouldn't have moved back in here. I am full of rage. I am full of anger. I see my wife on the phone laughing and I am just OVERCOME with emotions. I just hate that she can do what she did and be OK in her own skin. 

I've never given any thought to taking pills, but maybe I should see a doctor for this and get some medication. My soul is black, my heart is like 1000 drops of blood red paint around my feet.


----------



## Pluto2

gridcom said:


> I'll say this. Maybe I shouldn't have moved back in here. I am full of rage. I am full of anger. I see my wife on the phone laughing and I am just OVERCOME with emotions. I just hate that she can do what she did and be OK in her own skin.
> 
> I've never given any thought to taking pills, but maybe I should see a doctor for this and get some medication. My soul is black, my heart is like 1000 drops of blood red paint around my feet.


Yes you should go see your MD. Maybe some anti-anxiety, maybe something else that will help. But situational depression is pretty darn common, I mean look what we go through. It is not permanent.

Can you move in the basement or something? Have you considered how and when to tell the kids? Forget the crap about ruining their holidays. They know something is wrong. They know. Giving them some information is kinder than letting them fester with what is going through their minds. Just my two cents on that.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Grid, the two of you staying in that house is disaster waiting to happen. Get a lawyer! She needs to move her rotten cheating ass OUT of your house, ASAP.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

gridcom said:


> I'll say this. Maybe I shouldn't have moved back in here. I am full of rage. I am full of anger. I see my wife on the phone laughing and I am just OVERCOME with emotions. I just hate that she can do what she did and be OK in her own skin.
> 
> I've never given any thought to taking pills, but maybe I should see a doctor for this and get some medication. My soul is black, my heart is like 1000 drops of blood red paint around my feet.


No, don't start medicating yourself. This is what happens when you suppress all of these emotions for 6 plus months. Remember, people asked where your anger was at early in the thread. It has now morphed into rage which, is very unhealthy.

Go hit the gym, go bike ride, go run, go do all of the things to burn the rage off and then slowly move to 50,000 feet.


----------



## gridcom

Pluto2 said:


> Yes you should go see your MD. Maybe some anti-anxiety, maybe something else that will help. But situational depression is pretty darn common, I mean look what we go through. It is not permanent.
> 
> Can you move in the basement or something? Have you considered how and when to tell the kids? Forget the crap about ruining their holidays. They know something is wrong. They know. Giving them some information is kinder than letting them fester with what is going through their minds. Just my two cents on that.


The kids know. They know it's coming. Maybe my younger one doesnt understand, but my older one is growing up real quick here. I am trying hard not to project around her, but admittedly my self control especially the last 48 hours has been rather poor. I found out she lied, I blew up on her in front of the kids, I moved out, moved back in, we slept in separate beds and haven't had a family meal since. 

We only have on bathroom, the house is small. 3 bedrooms right next to each other. There is an upstairs that I use for an office. No bed and no heat up here, though. 

Good God, all I've done today is written here and prayed to God I dont trust to actually be there. My work is suffering hard at a critical time. i need to get my brains together


----------



## Pluto2

Maybe it would help if you put yourself on a bit of schedule. Only post here during certain times, then force yourself to work at other times. It can help. You will feel like you accomplished something at work, while still have some time to get your thoughts an emotions out.


----------



## jld

gridcom said:


> The kids know. They know it's coming. Maybe my younger one doesnt understand, but my older one is growing up real quick here. I am trying hard not to project around her, but admittedly my self control especially the last 48 hours has been rather poor. I found out she lied, I blew up on her in front of the kids, I moved out, moved back in, we slept in separate beds and haven't had a family meal since.
> 
> We only have on bathroom, the house is small. 3 bedrooms right next to each other. There is an upstairs that I use for an office. No bed and no heat up here, though.
> 
> Good God, all I've done today is written here and prayed to God I dont trust to actually be there. My work is suffering hard at a critical time. i need to get my brains together


Grid, can you get in to see your counselor, get some advice on transitioning to divorce?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

The more you type, the more I understand your rage and see how far ahead your wife is now. She locked down your finances where you can't separate things? Wow. You shouted me down when I suggested she knew what she was doing. Yet, she keeps proving me right. Get a lawyer ASAP, do it now. Good lord dude, I am sorry, but you need to catch up NOW. 

Still, every time you feel the rage come on think of what happens to your time with your kids okay? You are a man guess what? Think about what all of that entails if there is EVEN A HINT of domestic violence. 
Do you want supervised visits?
Do you want no visits?
Do you want another man raising your children with ZERO input?
Do you want another man adopting your kids?
Do you want jail time?
Do you want no contact?

I could keep going, but you get what I mean. Think before you speak or blow up at her. IMO, she is goading you into a conflict. Call me a conspiracy theorists, but again a shark lawyer is going to set you up for a fall. If you weren't raging, I'd show you all of the actions she has taken these last 5 months and show you were all of it appears calculated..


----------



## Evinrude58

Grid,
He's there. But you won't be able to see how much he has helped you until a while down the road. 
I also recommend some non-narcotic anti-anxiety stuff from your md. 
I agree with Gus p on the reading thing.

It's perfectly normal for you to feel this badly. Unimaginable hurt.

It won't get better until you accept she is gone. You can't accept it until she IS gone. 

Once she is, in a few months you'll get back to being grid and will find a woman that is easy to love.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Bibi1031

gridcom said:


> The kids know. They know it's coming. Maybe my younger one doesnt understand, but my older one is growing
> Good God, all I've done today is written here and prayed to God I dont trust to actually be there. My work is suffering hard at a critical time. i need to get my brains together


That's what the meds are for. They take the edge off. They don't numb you into not feeling, but they do help think a bit clearer and focus a lot more than without them. 

Hitting the gym or running or anything else to channel that rightful anger coming out now is also something you must do. The anger is not a bad thing, it's how you channel it!

You have just gotten through a new twist in this roller coaster life of yours. Buckle up tight and grab your girls for dear life. Your anger and new unwanted change of course will get you through the next twist and turn. You will be ok. You have more strength than you know. It will suck for the next couple of months, but it will not be as defeating as the last couple of months. Those were hell!

Bibi


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> Grid, can you get in to see your counselor, get some advice on transitioning to divorce?


Here's the best advice available, and I'll offer it up for the low, low price of absolutely free...

180.

HARD.


----------



## lifeistooshort

I think you're mistaken in your assumption that she's happy without a care in the world. Her actions do not support that.....her actions are of one who is either deeply angry at you and trying to stick things in your face or of one who is baiting you to get you out. Possibly a little of both.....for the sake of your girls do not take this bait. Stay in the basement, speak to a lawyer and with his approval take a few days at your mom's, go to the gym, whatever.

And remember that despite her lousy actions the house is not yours, it's both of yours; you can ask her to leave, you can even try to order her out, but ultimately you can't kick her out. Get this mediated and settled asap.


----------



## gridcom

I am seeing my IC tomorrow. I dont know if my IC is any good. I dont know if anything or anyone is any good for anything to be honest. Nothing is helping me cope with this. I want a do over!


----------



## gridcom

180 AND GO.

Ok, I've 180'd now for 8 seconds

So far, so good.

:0


----------



## jld

gridcom said:


> I am seeing my IC tomorrow. I dont know if my IC is any good. I dont know if anything or anyone is any good for anything to be honest. Nothing is helping me cope with this. I want a do over!


She'll be able to help you, grid. She will be calming and soothing. She will help you refocus and be able to get your work done in order to get that Christmas bonus.


----------



## lifeistooshort

1000 miles starts with a single step.


----------



## gridcom

Seriously though, I really need to get a handle on my emotions right now. I need to go to sleep tonight and literally wake up a new man. I need to do this for my kids. They cant see me all cut open like this. They'll never forget this. My dad and I werent very close. He was a drunk and a loner. He was devastated into drinking when my younger brother died a few months after being born, and it was then proven that it was partially caused by Agent Orange in Vietnam. When that information came to light, my father became a drunk and became detached from the family and abused my mother emotionally and verbally (sadly similar to the bad habits that I got into in my marriage)

I dont remember, literally, anything of my father before my brother died. I was 10 years old, and my memories of my life before 10..... I remember nothing about my father from that time. Nothing. All of my memories of my father are from when he was at his worst. My kids are seeing me now at my worst. I want to stop it


----------



## LongWalk

gridcom said:


> Thank you for this. Before I read your thread, sometimes you'd post and it would piss me off. You handled your situation so well. Even your wife posted on my thread.
> 
> I need some time to get to 50,000 feet but I am determined to get out of this mud. My heart is very broken. I didnt want to lose my family (this specific foursome). I love my wife, even now. It's hard to rationalize.
> 
> I hope yesterday was my rock bottom.


I was afraid GP would delete his thread but it can help many. Your thread may help others in the future. GP did not do everything right from the start.

Your wife may come back to you in 7 months time and say the divorce was all mistake. Whether or not you'd consider taking her back is uncertain. But let's say you still want your wife back, the last thing you should do is sink into depression. The ship you called The Grids is sinking. Your wife is in one lifeboat and you are in another. Your wife wants Mr PlayList to come over with his puny motorboat and tow her to Lovers Cove or Honeymoon Bay.

You should cut the ropes tying you together asap. Tell her to go and live with him. Why prolong the torture?

The sooner she looks at the evaporated urine drops by the toilet that he shook off his magic penis, the better.

Stand up for yourself and your daughters.


----------



## gridcom

LongWalk said:


> I was afraid GP would delete his thread but it can help many. Your thread may help others in the future. GP did not do everything right from the start.
> 
> Your wife may come back to you in 7 months time and say the divorce was all mistake. Whether or not you'd consider taking her back is uncertain. But let's say you still want your wife back, the last thing you should do is sink into depression. The ship you called The Grids is sinking. Your wife is in one lifeboat and you are in another. Your wife wants Mr PlayList to come over with his puny motorboat and tow her to Lovers Cove or Honeymoon Bay.
> 
> You should cut the ropes tying you together asap. Tell her to go and live with him. Why prolong the torture?
> 
> The sooner she looks at the evaporated urine drops by the toilet that he shook off his magic penis, the better.
> 
> Stand up for yourself and your daughters.


She wont leave. She loves him (she said it as recently as yesterday) and pines for him, but then says this all has nothing to do with him and that it is preposterous for me to even say aloud that they are going to hook up. She says there is nothing going on between them

She says

She says

She says

Anyway, she isnt moving in with him and she cant afford to move out. And, obviously, I cant make her move out


----------



## JohnA

Grid, I have never know or read about a BS who regreted staying in the home. 

Many here have issues with MB. But, have you read his plan B? It should be done while doing plan A. 
Go back and read roseAlgow post. If I did not post it here, let me know I will.

So here is how DR, it's all good just ride it out says to do on or before D-Day. EXPOS TO ALL ! Children over the age of four must be told their is another OM/OW involved in a factual but non-graphic age appropriate manner. 

How do your kids know and what do they know. 

Stop caring so much for your wife. Be the 180 when dealing with her. 

SUGGEST - URGE HER TO FOLLOW HER HEART ANS KUVE WITH HIM. But the kids stay,


----------



## LongWalk

Every time you feel the urge to talk to her or have sex with her, go to the basement and play the drums.

OM doesn't even want her to move in?

So, she is punishing you for his rejection.

Starbucks.... wow. All the work you did to help her find a new job. She could have gone and become a barista.

Don't leave your home. Put on your best game face. Be polite. Don't lose your temper. Do not engage her.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

gridcom said:


> She wont leave. She loves him (she said it as recently as yesterday) and pines for him, but then says this all has nothing to do with him and that it is preposterous for me to even say aloud that they are going to hook up. She says there is nothing going on between them
> 
> She says
> 
> She says
> 
> She says


So? /sarcasm 

Seriously though, this is what the 180 is for, nothing in this post concerns you or the kids. 

This is going to be the hardest part for you until it is over,* none of her shenanigans matter to you.* She's in love, she will lie to you, lie to the kids and even lie to herself, but it is none of your concern.


----------



## lifeistooshort

She pines for him because she has a rainbow and unicorn fantasy built around him. The real thing may not turn out to be so great, especially when the true cost to her family becomes more apparent.

But there is the possibility that she'll have a long term relationship with him, albeit a small one.

Your path is forward without consideration to her or what she does. Build your own life.


----------



## ButtPunch

If you are not sleeping go get anxiety meds from your Dr. You need to be able to function. I had to do it. I had to work and take care of kids. Do it. You won't be some addict.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Bibi1031

gridcom said:


> I am seeing my IC tomorrow. I dont know if my IC is any good. I dont know if anything or anyone is any good for anything to be honest. Nothing is helping me cope with this. I want a do over!


Nothing will help because the outcome you want is NOT possible. Shift gears; that is where your do over is heading whether you want to or not. Your choice is to either be in the driver's seat or have your future ex-wife drive you there. Remember she doesn't have your best interest at heart. She will rip you to shreds and take your babies with her. Wake up, and be prepared to fight against her. It is strictly business now. You are breaking the marital contract with a divorce contract. 

She is the petitioner and you are the respondent; this is strictly business!

Bibi


----------



## gridcom

drums


----------



## farsidejunky

I bet she would just LOVE hearing them at about 11 pm tonight...

Insomnia will suck for BOTH of you.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Grid,

You have a margin of absolutely zero when it comes to angry outbursts and any sort of violence.

Do not, do not, DO NOT, punch a door, cabinet, pillow, etc. DO NOT yell, scream, or threaten in anger.

Do, Do, DO be cool-hand Luke. Calm and dispassionate.

You do realize that your next outburst could be your one-way ticket out of the house, with a CPO file against you?

You have enough problems. Lets not create more.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> I bet she would just LOVE hearing them at about 11 pm tonight...
> 
> Insomnia will suck for BOTH of you.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


And for the kids, too, far, remember?


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> And for the kids, too, far, remember?


I know....

Sometimes I am spiteful.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Marc878

ThreeStrikes said:


> Grid,
> 
> You have a margin of absolutely zero when it comes to angry outbursts and any sort of violence.
> 
> Do not, do not, DO NOT, punch a door, cabinet, pillow, etc. DO NOT yell, scream, or threaten in anger.
> 
> Do, Do, DO be cool-hand Luke. Calm and dispassionate.
> 
> You do realize that your next outburst could be your one-way ticket out of the house, with a CPO file against you?
> 
> You have enough problems. Lets not create more.


Exactly. She is playing you and all you can do is explode. At this time she owns you because you can't control your emotions. 

Are you capable of going as no contact as possible to detach? You'll never control her or her thoughts. It's fruitless effort on your part.

If you can't let her go you'll just be on this endless merrygoround.

You need to wake up and get a plan together. Your life is just reacting to her actions at this time.

WTH!!!!


----------



## JamesTKirk

gridcom said:


> I think he's not necc. looking to have a full blown relationship with my wife, by the way. I think was looking to have some fun, she's fun, boom. I think she see's him as the man of her dreams and hopes she can convince him to feel the same way. He's 30 and carefree. He works at Starbucks to makes ends meet. He had a child out of wedlock. I think she is worried about him rejecting all of her baggage, and he should if he had half a brain. The fact that he had an affair with a woman in a troubled marriage with two kids says a lot about what type of person he is, doesn't it?
> 
> When I asked my wife on Thansgiving to decide if I am the love of her life or not, she (eventually) told me I was not. This made me laugh. 20 years for you to decide that? And that decision has nothing to do with OM, huh? Okie then.....


If my wife one day decided she wasn't in love with me and broke it off, sure I'd be pissed and devastated, but I'd respect that more if it was a decision she made on her terms and not with the influence of an OM. If she literally said "I'm just not in love with you, I don't want to try anymore, I just want out," I'd have more respect for her cutting me loose and living with her own loneliness.

The fact that there is this other guy in the picture is where all respect is lost. The fact that new feelings for a new guy makes it so easy and convenient to leave this once supportive marriage. She couldn't make this decision about her feelings for you before she had new feelings... Oh please.. give me a break.

I've been there (with girlfriends, not a wife) and once you find out they're with their new guy before and immediately after dumping you it's just the crappiest thing in the world. It's like sure, you want out... that's fine. I don't want to be with someone that doesn't' want me. But last week you were into me and this week it's all about him. How convenient is that for you?

I get that this guy (or the fantasy of him) does something for her. Heck, I meet women that I'm sure I could fall madly in love with, seem perfect, I'm infatuated with and attracted to, and if they were interested in me could be an incredibly happy and exciting relationship. But I'd never bail on my wife to pursue that even if I felt like I might love this other woman more. I have too much respect and love for her and I signed up to love her for what I do and don't like about her, not conveniently decide she isn't all that great when a better woman comes along. I wouldn't even entertain something like that if my marriage was already essentially over and we both gave up on trying, not until after we had decided to split.

On one hand you're lucky. You get to cut loose this baggage and meet a new woman that will probably appreciate you. You get to discover the excitement of a new relationship eventually, not be with a woman that is unappreciative of you and just decided she no longer loves you (when I'm sure she once was madly in love with you.) Or even just someone to date and have fun with for a while as you concentrate on just being a dad. When you're ready, get on Tinder or whatever the kids do today and remember what it's like to be happy with a woman. I think that will go a long way to helping you heal from what seems like a twisting knife. I'm sure there are plenty of women in a similar situation as you that might appreciate some integrity.

It's super crappy that you have to live with her. Personally, I wouldn't be able to stay. I don't have the financial means to move out (not with the rent prices around here) but I'd find a way avoid seeing or communicating with her any more than is the bare minimum contact with her to maintain a relationship my kids.

*This needs to be inconvenient for her.*
She can't just live with you, under your support, have her family life, and still explore her feelings with this guy on the side to see how it goes. If it doesn't work with him, she has you as a backup. She has to commit and risk lonliness. Either leave you for him, or break it off with him (even if it means finding a new job.)

Sorry, I haven't read all 200 pages so I'm not totally up to speed on where you two are. I'll go back and read more. I just saw this post and it hit a nerve. Pardon my knee-jerk response. Disregard me if I'm way off base.


----------



## gridcom

JamesTKirk said:


> If my wife one day decided she wasn't in love with me and broke it off, sure I'd be pissed and devastated, but I'd respect that more if it was a decision she made on her terms and not with the influence of an OM. If she literally said "I'm just not in love with you, I don't want to try anymore, I just want out," I'd have more respect for her cutting me loose and living with her own loneliness.
> 
> The fact that there is this other guy in the picture is where all respect is lost. The fact that new feelings for a new guy makes it so easy and convenient to leave this once supportive marriage. She couldn't make this decision about her feelings for you before she had new feelings... Oh please.. give me a break.
> 
> I've been there (with girlfriends, not a wife) and once you find out they're with their new guy before and immediately after dumping you it's just the crappiest thing in the world. It's like sure, you want out... that's fine. I don't want to be with someone that doesn't' want me. But last week you were into me and this week it's all about him. How convenient is that for you?
> 
> I get that this guy (or the fantasy of him) does something for her. Heck, I meet women that I'm sure I could fall madly in love with, seem perfect, I'm infatuated with and attracted to, and if they were interested in me could be an incredibly happy and exciting relationship. But I'd never bail on my wife to pursue that even if I felt like I might love this other woman more. I have too much respect and love for her and I signed up to love her for what I do and don't like about her, not conveniently decide she isn't all that great when a better woman comes along. I wouldn't even entertain something like that if my marriage was already essentially over and we both gave up on trying, not until after we had decided to split.
> 
> On one hand you're lucky. You get to cut loose this baggage and meet a new woman that will probably appreciate you. You get to discover the excitement of a new relationship eventually, not be with a woman that is unappreciative of you and just decided she no longer loves you (when I'm sure she once was madly in love with you.) Or even just someone to date and have fun with for a while as you concentrate on just being a dad. When you're ready, get on Tinder or whatever the kids do today and remember what it's like to be happy with a woman. I think that will go a long way to helping you heal from what seems like a twisting knife.
> 
> It's super crappy that you have to live with her. Personally, I wouldn't be able to stay. I don't have the financial means to move out (not with the rent prices around here) but I'd find a way avoid seeing or communicating with her any more than is the bare minimum contact with her to maintain a relationship my kids.
> 
> *This needs to be inconvenient for her.*
> She can't just live with you, under your support, have her family life, and still explore her feelings with this guy on the side to see how it goes. If it doesn't work with him, she has you as a backup. She has to commit and risk lonliness. Either leave you for him, or break it off with him (even if it means finding a new job.)
> 
> Sorry, I haven't read all 200 pages so I'm not totally up to speed on where you two are. I'll go back and read more. I just saw this post and it hit a nerve. Pardon my knee-jerk response. Disregard me if I'm way off base.


Welcome to the party.


----------



## JamesTKirk

Marc878 said:


> Exactly. She is playing you and all you can do is explode. At this time she owns you because you can't control your emotions.
> 
> Are you capable of going as no contact as possible to detach? You'll never control her or her thoughts. It's fruitless effort on your part.
> 
> If you can't let her go you'll just be on this endless merrygoround.
> 
> You need to wake up and get a plan together. Your life is just reacting to her actions at this time.
> 
> WTH!!!!


Based on my experience, the more you become angry and have outbursts against a woman in this situation, the more justification it gives them to leave you and the better they feel about doing it. They just don't feel bad that you feel this way, rather it confirms their theory that you're just an angry irrational man and they have no sympathy. It makes her actions much more convenient to justify.

Rather the opposite. You need to be cool, non-caring, and if possible, show 0 emotion toward them. Speak as few words as necessary toward her and don't let her think you care. I'm not saying "play games" rather put on a cool face that tells her that she's worthless to you. Then it becomes inconvenient to her to justify whatever it is she's doing because YOU certainly aren't the reason.


----------



## just got it 55

gridcom said:


> I'll say this. Maybe I shouldn't have moved back in here. I am full of rage. I am full of anger. I see my wife on the phone laughing and I am just OVERCOME with emotions. I just hate that she can do what she did and be OK in her own skin.
> 
> I've never given any thought to taking pills, but maybe I should see a doctor for this and get some medication. My soul is black, my heart is like 1000 drops of blood red paint around my feet.


Grid I will say this the bottom is yet to come

Be careful young man 

55


----------



## Marc878

Excellent advice why don't you try following it.

What you are doing isn't working very well is it?

You have to deal with this. Your therapist isn't going to do it for you. The Calvary isn't coming.

YOU need to get smart and run your life. I suspect you are alienating your kids as well.

Our lives are what we make them. Start owning yours.


----------



## just got it 55

gridcom said:


> 180 AND GO.
> 
> Ok, I've 180'd now for 8 seconds
> 
> So far, so good.
> 
> :0


Grid that's the spirit

One second at a time

Then a minute

Then an hour

Then a day

Then a month

Then a year

Limit your steps backwards

55


----------



## gridcom

Marc878 said:


> You have to deal with this. The Calvary isn't coming.


F*CK.


----------



## ButtPunch

Cool Calm Dispassionate

Fake it until you make it

Get out at night.

Go see a movie or hang with friends.

Find a meetup group of people who like drums.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## gridcom

ButtPunch said:


> Cool Calm Dispassionate
> 
> Fake it until you make it
> 
> Get out at night.
> 
> Go see a movie or hang with friends.
> 
> Find a meetup group of people who like drums.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Haha a meeting group of people that like drums is what I do for a living.

She works nights, so essentially my life right now is we are both home alone all day while the kids are at school. Then she goes to work and I have the kids. And I basically dont stop working, especially now since I didnt work much today.


----------



## truster

ButtPunch said:


> If you are not sleeping go get anxiety meds from your Dr. You need to be able to function. I had to do it. I had to work and take care of kids. Do it. You won't be some addict.


Yeah, I had a period early on where I needed them for 1-2 weeks just to sleep.. if you need them, no shame in asking for them. If a period this intense isn't what they're for, what is? Focus on anxiety, because if you say 'trouble sleeping' the doc may prescribe Ambien, and I have heard the WORST horror stories about sleepwalking and alternate personality outbursts while on Ambien. The last thing you need is for Zombie Grid to approach Mrs. Grid at this point.

As others have said, gym, gym, gym. It's the best natural mood stabilizer there is. I used to hate the idea of the gym, now I look forward to it because it centers me better than anything.


----------



## Pluto2

I think the drums are far more therapeutic, but consider putting a rubber band around your wrist and every time you feel the need to punch something, or say something in response to her smart-a$$ nonsense, snap the band. It will distract you long enough to keep your mouth shut.

But I still like the drums


----------



## LongWalk

Grid,

Your wife is very proud. If OM doesn't want her to move in, that's because he doesn't feel he can handle the situation, i.e., the kids. So either your wife is thinking she has to get her equity out to... to do what pool it with OM and buy a house? Even in her hormone addled state she must feel uneasy about financing him.

So if OM is a dead end relationship, she is just looking for single hood?

Maybe the two of them have a plan but if the guy is working a second job at Starbucks at his age, he has no career.

Sounds like she is headed for trouble, unless as you believe she is just so attractive and charming that she is going find some newly divorced doctor.

You need to detach from her and let her land her own plane.


----------



## tom67

LongWalk said:


> Grid,
> 
> Your wife is very proud. If OM doesn't want her to move in, that's because he doesn't feel he can handle the situation, i.e., the kids. So either your wife is thinking she has to get her equity out to... to do what pool it with OM and buy a house? Even in her hormone addled state she must feel uneasy about financing him.
> 
> So if OM is a dead end relationship, she is just looking for single hood?
> 
> Maybe the two of them have a plan but if the guy is working a second job at Starbucks at his age, he has no career.
> 
> Sounds like she is headed for trouble, unless as you believe she is just so attractive and charming that she is going find some newly divorced doctor.
> 
> You need to detach from her and let her land her own plane.


LW will agree with me through Mach's past words...
Her sex rank will decline faster than yours and she won't even see it coming.
You will see this.


----------



## turnera

gridcom said:


> Haha a meeting group of people that like drums is what I do for a living.
> 
> She works nights, so essentially my life right now is we are both home alone all day while the kids are at school. Then she goes to work and I have the kids. And I basically dont stop working, especially now since I didnt work much today.


So go work at the local library. Or Starbucks. Come on, grid. Get smart about this.


----------



## ButtPunch

I'd stay away from Starbucks especially when OM is working. Come on @turnera.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## gridcom

I was just talking to friend of mine who was also friends with her, knows us both.... and he says "You know, it sounds to me like it's inevitable that in 6 months she is going to come back and ask for your forgiveness. How do you feel about that?"

And I have already thought about this. My feelings haven't changed. I must have given Mrs. Grid 800 chances to get her head out her a$$. I know this is a possibility. Even she's admitted that she knows there's a chance she regrets it.

I would be MAD. I wont be happy. I wont be sad. I will be flying high pi$$ed off. I don't think it will matter if I've moved on or not. I will be mad if that happens.

Is there anyone here that this has happened with?


----------



## farsidejunky

Yeah. Most have already moved on when that happens though. And it is typically longer than a few months. Normally it is a year plus.

It normally happens when the wayward sees or hears of their BS dating someone new.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## cbnero

gridcom said:


> I was just talking to friend of mine who was also friends with her, knows us both.... and he says "You know, it sounds to me like it's inevitable that in 6 months she is going to come back and ask for your forgiveness. How do you feel about that?"
> 
> And I have already thought about this. My feelings haven't changed. I must have given Mrs. Grid 800 chances to get her head out her a$$. I know this is a possibility. Even she's admitted that she knows there's a chance she regrets it.
> 
> I would be MAD. I wont be happy. I wont be sad. I will be flying high pi$$ed off. I don't think it will matter if I've moved on or not. I will be mad if that happens.
> 
> Is there anyone here that this has happened with?


Yeah, it just happened to me a few months ago. She hadn't changed whatsoever. She emailed me to tell me she wanted to start over and that she forgave me. Umm... wow yeah thanks I'm going to pass on that one.

Your wife isn't the solution to you or your kids happiness. You sir are in control of your life and who you let in it. 

Boundaries, boundaries,and more boundaries. Forget her she is trash. Find someone better, won't be difficult. Work on yourself first. Find happiness alone, then you will be ready and wise enough to meet someone great. Get excited for your future starting tomorow. Do it for your kids. Show them how. Nut up!


----------



## LongWalk

gridcom said:


> I was just talking to friend of mine who was also friends with her, knows us both.... and he says "You know, it sounds to me like it's inevitable that in 6 months she is going to come back and ask for your forgiveness. How do you feel about that?"
> 
> And I have already thought about this. My feelings haven't changed. I must have given Mrs. Grid 800 chances to get her head out her a$$. I know this is a possibility. Even she's admitted that she knows there's a chance she regrets it.
> 
> I would be MAD. I wont be happy. I wont be sad. I will be flying high pi$$ed off. I don't think it will matter if I've moved on or not. I will be mad if that happens.
> 
> Is there anyone here that this has happened with?


LostLove's WW tried the single life. Partied. Had a bunch of boyfriends. Wanted a new guy but nothing worked out. In the end after he had finally given up, she wanted marital therapy. He was done.

Maybe your wife will want to try her luck at online dating, Tinder, etc.


----------



## gridcom

The word "Tinder" makes me sick. Too old for that. 44 years old + Tinder = sad times

Sorry if I offended anyone


----------



## tom67

gridcom said:


> The word "Tinder" makes me sick. Too old for that. 44 years old + Tinder = sad times
> 
> Sorry if I offended anyone


Dude I'm 48 and have a 32 year old gf/fwb
Stop it.


----------



## turnera

ButtPunch said:


> I'd stay away from Starbucks especially when OM is working. Come on @turnera.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, like there aren't 5,000 Starbucks in every town in America. Take back your power.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Does anyone here doubt that, after the dust settles, Grid's next partner will be an upgrade over his STBXW?:wink2:


----------



## Chaparral

Follow the 180 exactly. Study it and do not change any of it. Thats where people mess up and lose ground. The most important part is to ignore her while appearing cheerful.

Your motto now should be "I deserve good things." Repeat this over and over as your mantra.

Things you can say to your wife:

Not my problem, you fired me.

Tell your boy toy to do it.

I'm sorry you feel that way.

This was your call, go away.

Etc.

No conversations about anything. Tell her to email you about the kids needs or requirements. This keeps a paper trail. Journal everything she does and use it in court, that's where this will end up.

SEE YOUR DOCTOR

Read lovemyjava's thread. Also read shamwow's threads.

You cant believe it now but success is just around the corner. You may find some advise sounding ridiculous, especially, you will look back at this and see you're glad he took her off your hands but we see that constantly here. You would never have gotten over her terrible betrayal anyway.

Go back through your thread and make a list of the awful actions she has taken against you. Know you don't have 1/5 of the whole story. its way worse than you think.

180 180 180. you will be better than fine, the better you run the 180, the quicker you get your life back.


----------



## gridcom

4 hours sleep but I found this
13 things mentally strong people avoid - Business Insider


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> 4 hours sleep but I found this
> 13 things mentally strong people avoid - Business Insider


Great Article but remember....

Grieving the death of your marriage is normal and isn't you feeling sorry for yourself.


----------



## Pluto2

ButtPunch said:


> Great Article but remember....
> 
> Grieving the death of your marriage is normal and isn't you feeling sorry for yourself.


You loved her, you MUST grieve for the loss of that relationship. Grieving hurts, but you can't and shouldn't avoid it. You need it to heal and recover.

And you will recover.

(By the way I divorced at the age of 54-really its not the end of your life, just the end of your old, painful, dysfunctional life. Now, I don't put up with passive-aggressive behavior, demeaning statements, or irresponsible egotists. Life is good).


----------



## TheTruthHurts

gridcom said:


> 4 hours sleep but I found this
> 13 things mentally strong people avoid - Business Insider


Grid that is SPOT ON. I just read the headlines but that could be my mantra. BTW I make 2-3 times what others make in my role because that is my nature - I fail fast, realize no decision is a decision and my main catch phrase (for whatever team I'm on to create change) is "we suck less". That's all you have to do in life - move faster and suck less than everyone else.

Now look at your situation. You're doing the opposite and are dying on the vine. Start sucking less by moving forward. Any change is good change - for every right decision - if you move fast - you can make 4 or 5 wing decisions. Change is about taking risks and trusting in yourself only in an unknown situation. Then if you don't like the change, tack right or left.

Just don't sit and wait for the old like to rematerialuze. Push forward.

The main reason a WW comes crawling back is the BS had moved forward. They become interesting because they're different. They're intriguing because - wait - they're happy without me? Other people are interested in what i already had? Any my great sexy life isn't quite as carefree and glamorous as I thought?


----------



## JohnA

ThreeStrikes said:


> Does anyone here doubt that, after the dust settles, Grid's next partner will be an upgrade over his STBXW?:wink2:


Only if he continues to own and work on his issues. Grid, if you do and then going forward using her issues as red flags you will be amazed where you find yourself. 

Your pain will turn into a shrug of disappointment: that the two you couldn't have had a lifetime of this - but she is who she, and I'm better off. - just a shame.


----------



## LongWalk

You live near NYC. Meet HappyMan in real life. Go to Starbucks where OM works.

Learn the drum parts that are interesting in OM's song list. Play them in the basement.

Laugh. When things seem bad, recall the absurd and laugh to yourself. Watch some good stand up comics on YouTube. Memorize jokes.


----------



## MRR

gridcom said:


> I was just talking to friend of mine who was also friends with her, knows us both.... and he says "You know, it sounds to me like it's inevitable that in 6 months she is going to come back and ask for your forgiveness. How do you feel about that?"
> 
> And I have already thought about this. My feelings haven't changed. I must have given Mrs. Grid 800 chances to get her head out her a$$. I know this is a possibility. Even she's admitted that she knows there's a chance she regrets it.
> 
> I would be MAD. I wont be happy. I wont be sad. I will be flying high pi$$ed off. I don't think it will matter if I've moved on or not. I will be mad if that happens.
> 
> Is there anyone here that this has happened with?



Yes. But because I had moved on I was not interested. I am about 1,000 times happier without her. 

Once you get some perspective you will realize you are better off with out her. Right now she is still using you for financial reasons, frankly. You need to quit talking to her altogether. Anything she says is going to your head.


----------



## farsidejunky

MRR said:


> Yes. But because I had moved on I was not interested. I am about 1,000 times happier without her.
> 
> Once you get some perspective you will realize you are better off with out her. Right now she is still using you for financial reasons, frankly. You need to quit talking to her altogether. Anything she says is going to your head.


Absolutely.

Stop watching what she says and start watching what she does. 

This is why you are struggling, Grid. She is giving you words that can encourage while giving you actions of a cheater who is fully prepped to take you to the cleaners in divorce.

Believe only what she does.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Pluto2

farsidejunky said:


> Believe only what she does.Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


This. This is your new mantra.


----------



## LongWalk

Women give men shxt tests. Falling out of love and betraying you is the biggest. Your wife is not in control of her decisions. She loves OM but cannot openly live with him. Your family economy is bad, so she is going to trash it further. She has become a liar who has to hide secrets. What are you going to do about this? That is the trial you face.

The answer is simple. You do not show that you care. Observe her behavior but do not discuss it. Simply act logically so that the consequences of her choices make sense. She wants a divorce, divorce her. She wants OM, let her have him. She does not want "meaningless" sex with you, don't have it. You're angry and bitter, stop being angry and bitter. You care too much, stop caring.

Remember one of fundamental unhealthy aspects of your co-dependent relationship is that your wife riles you up and you rise to the bait and are the angry dude. She wants the angry dude show, cancel it.


----------



## gridcom

LongWalk said:


> Women give men shxt tests. Falling out of love and betraying you is the biggest. Your wife is not in control of her decisions. She loves OM but cannot openly live with him. Your family economy is bad, so she is going to trash it further. She has become a liar who has to hide secrets. What are you going to do about this? That is the trial you face.
> 
> The answer is simple. You do not show that you care. Observe her behavior but do not discuss it. Simply act logically so that the consequences of her choices make sense. She wants a divorce, divorce her. She wants OM, let her have him. She does not want "meaningless" sex with you, don't have it. You're angry and bitter, stop being angry and bitter. You care too much, stop caring.
> 
> Remember one of fundamental unhealthy aspects of your co-dependent relationship is that your wife riles you up and you rise to the bait and are the angry dude. She wants the angry dude show, cancel it.


One of your best. 

I saw my IC this morning. Her attitude is similar to the attitude here 

- Stop talking about the marriage and the state of the marriage (has been saying that repeatedly, I havent listened one bit)
- Stop being reactionary to the crap your wife is doing. Even if it bothers you and upsets you, simply smile, walk away, and go pound a pillow in solitude
- Be civil

But, the two things she insists on that is different than whats happening here is
- Don't be in a rush to get a divorce. Simply do the above + stall stall stall (i should mention that she feels that a decision that is this life changing shouldn't be made in anger or while angry. That you shouldnt visit a mediator angry)
- Keep going to marriage counseling and the Retrouvaille follow ups if your wife is willing even if you take separate cars

She then asked if she could meet with my wife.

I kind of like her, but mainly because she has no problem telling me I am full of sh*t (I'm simplifying it). I've never had a counselor before but I went to her partially because someone else here in town swears by her.


----------



## ihatethis

gridcom said:


> I was just talking to friend of mine who was also friends with her, knows us both.... and he says "You know, it sounds to me like it's inevitable that in 6 months she is going to come back and ask for your forgiveness. How do you feel about that?"
> 
> And I have already thought about this. My feelings haven't changed. I must have given Mrs. Grid 800 chances to get her head out her a$$. I know this is a possibility. Even she's admitted that she knows there's a chance she regrets it.
> 
> I would be MAD. I wont be happy. I wont be sad. I will be flying high pi$$ed off. I don't think it will matter if I've moved on or not. I will be mad if that happens.
> 
> Is there anyone here that this has happened with?


My XH rushed for divorce basically. 

On September 27th, 2013 we were at a wedding and I did the makeup for the bridal party. The maid of honor wanted to look hot as she was single, so I did so. In front of me at the reception she hit on my husband. On October 9th, 2013, he told me he wanted to separate, and at this point he was heavily talking with the MOH. We were divorced legally January 24th, 2014. 

He rushed into it, and everyone (and I do mean EVERYONE on both sides) told him what a fool he was. Turns out the MOH was a crazy crazy woman. He and I slept together the duration of their entire relationship and went back and forth (I did not want the divorce). Let me say that if he had been with ANYONE else besides the woman who stepped in on my marriage, I would not have engaged in this with him. 

Anyway, this went on until October of 2014. We stopped talking until about March of 2015. I started dating a guy in April 2015 and in July of 2015, my XH wanted me to leave my boyfriend and go back to him. This was official because he wasn't with his girlfriend anymore. (he had brought this up before but he was always on and off with the girlfriend).

I was SO angry. I tried for SO long to work on things and to get him back and to start new. I wasn't sad, I didn't miss him, or anything other than p*ssed off. 

I told him no, and I am HAPPILY with my boyfriend, whom I adore. 

So yes, I have been there, and if it does happen to you, you will be angry, and at some point you will just laugh because you will look back and realize how you are so worth so much more than what she is doing to you. 

Like you said, you weren't perfect, but that does not mean she has the right to step out on you. 

You are going to get through this and you are going to be a better man because of it.

As far as your kids go, just be there for them. Do activities with them and be PRESENT. That is what they need. When you feel weak or broken, surround yourself with your girls and you will feel better. 

You are going to come out on top of this. A better man, and even more of a great dad.


----------



## gridcom

ihatethis said:


> My XH rushed for divorce basically.
> 
> On September 27th, 2013 we were at a wedding and I did the makeup for the bridal party. The maid of honor wanted to look hot as she was single, so I did so. In front of me at the reception she hit on my husband. On October 9th, 2013, he told me he wanted to separate, and at this point he was heavily talking with the MOH. We were divorced legally January 24th, 2014.
> 
> He rushed into it, and everyone (and I do mean EVERYONE on both sides) told him what a fool he was. Turns out the MOH was a crazy crazy woman. He and I slept together the duration of their entire relationship and went back and forth (I did not want the divorce). Let me say that if he had been with ANYONE else besides the woman who stepped in on my marriage, I would not have engaged in this with him.
> 
> Anyway, this went on until October of 2014. We stopped talking until about March of 2015. I started dating a guy in April 2015 and in July of 2015, my XH wanted me to leave my boyfriend and go back to him. This was official because he wasn't with his girlfriend anymore. (he had brought this up before but he was always on and off with the girlfriend).
> 
> I was SO angry. I tried for SO long to work on things and to get him back and to start new. I wasn't sad, I didn't miss him, or anything other than p*ssed off.
> 
> I told him no, and I am HAPPILY with my boyfriend, whom I adore.
> 
> So yes, I have been there, and if it does happen to you, you will be angry, and at some point you will just laugh because you will look back and realize how you are so worth so much more than what she is doing to you.
> 
> Like you said, you weren't perfect, but that does not mean she has the right to step out on you.
> 
> You are going to get through this and you are going to be a better man because of it.
> 
> As far as your kids go, just be there for them. Do activities with them and be PRESENT. That is what they need. When you feel weak or broken, surround yourself with your girls and you will feel better.
> 
> You are going to come out on top of this. A better man, and even more of a great dad.


Thanks for sharing
Seriously, what is wrong with people?


----------



## TeddieG

Hey Grid. You don't have to rush to get a divorce. But you do have to prepare for the fact that your wife has filed for one. 

I am SO glad you found a counselor you like and that resonates with you. Good work. And yeah, that's one of @LongWalk 's best posts ever.


----------



## Pluto2

gridcom said:


> One of your best.
> 
> I saw my IC this morning. Her attitude is similar to the attitude here
> 
> - Stop talking about the marriage and the state of the marriage (has been saying that repeatedly, I havent listened one bit)
> - Stop being reactionary to the crap your wife is doing. Even if it bothers you and upsets you, simply smile, walk away, and go pound a pillow in solitude
> - Be civil
> 
> But, the two things she insists on that is different than whats happening here is
> - Don't be in a rush to get a divorce. Simply do the above + stall stall stall (i should mention that she feels that a decision that is this life changing shouldn't be made in anger or while angry. That you shouldnt visit a mediator angry)
> - Keep going to marriage counseling and the Retrouvaille follow ups if your wife is willing even if you take separate cars
> 
> She then asked if she could meet with my wife.
> 
> I kind of like her, but mainly because she has no problem telling me I am full of sh*t (I'm simplifying it). I've never had a counselor before but I went to her partially because someone else here in town swears by her.


If I remember correctly your therapist does not have expertise in infidelity, correct?

While I agree that generally no one should make life-changing decisions in haste, the timeline for the divorce proceedings is pretty much in your wife's court (sorry for the pun), not yours. You might be able to delay a bit, but you can't stop it.

And in that regard have you seen an attorney to find out where you stand on everything?

I disagree with your IC about continuing with R'ville. It has proven to be pointless and potentially further demeaning to you since she continues to assert her love for OM. 

But you do what is comfortable. And if its not comfortable then perhaps there's a good reason.


----------



## gridcom

I am doing what I need to do with all of this 
180-Cool hand Luke- Calm CALM

I think about my wife's beef with me. My anger. I exploded on Monday when I found out. Between the time I found out when she was at the supermarket until when she walked in the door, my mind was a volcano. To put it in perspective, my reaction to finding out she lied to me five months after she slept with him was 100X (no joke) worse than my reaction when I found out she cheated. My reaction to when she cheated was very calm, very sad, very guilty, and eyes on recovery.

This is her SINGULAR issue with me. The vocanic eruptions of my mind over wrong doings. I swear that all of this self discovery etc I am getting better at this. I really think that this specific issue is one that cannot count against me.

I have to admit. I was an ugly man on Monday and Tuesday and even a little bit of yesterday. If you didn't know what was going on here, you'd walk into a very ugly man. And I think to myself "Please just stop with this wound. Please just leave it alone." Bottom line though was I regressed. I wish I hadn't but this is how I act when I am hurt at my deepest level. And again, I "say" things but it is, and always has been, empty threats. Empty talk. 

Does it matter that all of my talk is just talk? Does it matter that all the crap that spills out of my mouth NEVER reverts to action? That I havent actually done a single thing wrong? I mean, I've said some nasty stuff. What's worse, sayin it' or doin' it? My wife doesnt threaten, she just did it. 

I've been pretty good for the majority of these 5 months, but Monday I "reverted" back to "the volcanic eruption". On one hand I feel very guilty over this. One the other hand, I feel that, as my IC said today, my wife's "provacative" actions are her way of "mindf^cking" me. She said my wife is likely not super deliberate about it ie "Let me f*ck with him right now", but that on some level she is testing me to see my reactions.

And again, I feel very strongly that I have improved. I do. I feel like this ONE thing, please don't touch me here. 

And again, this isnt about my marriage so much is it's about me.


----------



## happy as a clam

I do not agree with the therapist's advice to stall, stall, stall the divorce. 

Stall, stall, stall = $ $ $ in your attorney's pocket.

And I agree with Pluto... ditch the R'ville. You will only be further humiliated as your wife continues to make a mockery of your marriage. Her efforts are not sincere, so why put yourself through the mental and emotional torture?


----------



## Evinrude58

Grid, (you probably already know this, but maybe it will help to see it)
REalize that when you fall in love, it is very common to miss seeing major character flaws in people. I saw that my ex was a liar from very early on, but she was so sweet to me and agreed with other things that I thought were important, and so young (18 when we started dating), that I thought it was just childish behavior and she would never lie to me about important things. We dated for 4 years and I was never just totally set on marrying her. She begged and pleaded for me to marry her.
Her room when we were dating was constantly covered in clothes that were dirty or needed to be put away. I figured she would grow out of the sloppiness also, and I can be messy, too. 
I also noticed while we dated, that she never showed remorse or said she was sorry when she did things in which she was clearly in the wrong. I figured it wasn't a big deal. 

Of course, now that we are divorced, I see all the red flags I should have seen and ran from. The lying was the key thing I remember fretting about and should have realized was a deal breaker. She later lied about credit cards, bills, infidelity, etc. 

I know that you still can't see anything wrong with your wife, and that you have her on a pedestal-- I did as well. You still feel this is something that you can fix. You're probably thinking that the only option you have left is to divorce so she will be forced to face reality and come back to you. I've always thought this was something that would actually work for you, too. But after what this woman has done to you and said to you, and CONTINUES to do to you; I don't see how you could possibly ever see this person as a viable spouse again. I truly hope you are able to "break the spell" that she has over you and get to "50,000 feet" as they say. It is excruciating to do so, but I do not think that you should drag this on like your counselor says. You aren't angry and jumping to decisions---- You've done every da** thing possible to avoid this. I hope that you've done your homework and know exactly what your options are with this wife of yours, and are ready to execute a plan which will keep you and your girls safe from financial hardship and cruelty to you (through the kids) by your wife in the future.

Yes, I think there's almost a 50/50 chance your wife will come back with her hat in her hand when she gets this OM out of her head. That will happen when she goes to his sorry arse and is a free woman, and he shows that he was NOT out for a long term relationship. I think it's clear that he is not. IF it were just the OM in the picture and only about HIM, there would be a great chance of her coming back after divorce. But, it's very likely that she will just move on to the next guy. And at that point, it's not even worth worrying about. 

I think that you are better off finding a woman that loves you enough to be faithful in the hard times, and tough with you and your "temper" and "work ethic" when she's not satisfied with things.
I also think there are women out there that will appreciate your work ethic and the fact that you act like a man.

You've got to move forward on things, or you will just stay in limbo and torture for much, much longer than is necessary.
MOVE on things. You've sat by and tried the nice way for long enough.
JMO,
Evinrude58


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> I am doing what I need to do with all of this
> 180-Cool hand Luke- Calm CALM
> 
> I think about my wife's beef with me. My anger. I exploded on Monday when I found out. Between the time I found out when she was at the supermarket until when she walked in the door, my mind was a volcano. To put it in perspective, my reaction to finding out she lied to me five months after she slept with him was 100X (no joke) worse than my reaction when I found out she cheated. My reaction to when she cheated was very calm, very sad, very guilty, and eyes on recovery.
> 
> This is her SINGULAR issue with me. The vocanic eruptions of my mind over wrong doings. I swear that all of this self discovery etc I am getting better at this. I really think that this specific issue is one that cannot count against me.
> 
> I have to admit. I was an ugly man on Monday and Tuesday and even a little bit of yesterday. If you didn't know what was going on here, you'd walk into a very ugly man. And I think to myself "Please just stop with this wound. Please just leave it alone." Bottom line though was I regressed. I wish I hadn't but this is how I act when I am hurt at my deepest level. And again, I "say" things but it is, and always has been, empty threats. Empty talk.
> 
> Does it matter that all of my talk is just talk? Does it matter that all the crap that spills out of my mouth NEVER reverts to action? That I havent actually done a single thing wrong? I mean, I've said some nasty stuff. What's worse, sayin it' or doin' it? My wife doesnt threaten, she just did it.
> 
> I've been pretty good for the majority of these 5 months, but Monday I "reverted" back to "the volcanic eruption". On one hand I feel very guilty over this. One the other hand, I feel that, as my IC said today, my wife's "provacative" actions are her way of "mindf^cking" me. She said my wife is likely not super deliberate about it ie "Let me f*ck with him right now", but that on some level she is testing me to see my reactions.
> 
> And again, I feel very strongly that I have improved. I do. I feel like this ONE thing, please don't touch me here.
> 
> And again, this isnt about my marriage so much is it's about me.


Let me get this straight

Your wife justifies wanting to go fu*k another man because
you are angry about her wanting to fu*k another man.

Do you realize how this sounds?

Your wife is the problem Grid. The only problem you have is you can't let go.


----------



## knobcreek

I'm a man with a wife who cheated about 12 years ago and eventually took her back, but I had sense enough to understand when she was in the affair there was no reasoning with her, no begging, she enjoyed the torment so I cut it out and I cut her off for two years.

I can't understand staying in this situation, I really can't, it's incredibly mentally damaging, you have to extricate yourself from this situation. Grow a pair already. Your wife wants nothing to do with you, she has no respect for you, the ONLY thing keeping her remotely attached to you is a quickly dissipating sense of obligation coupled with guilt. At least go out with your head held high like a man at this point, cut her off, stiff upper lip and all that. Don't let her see you caring or emotional anymore.


----------



## gridcom

Evinrude58 said:


> Her room when we were dating was constantly covered in clothes that were dirty or needed to be put away. I figured she would grow out of the sloppiness also, and I can be messy, too.
> I also noticed while we dated, that she never showed remorse or said she was sorry when she did things in which she was clearly in the wrong. I figured it wasn't a big deal.


You married my wife? 

Seriously, my wife's two biggest flaws in her life right there.. Especially her stubbornness. It is absolutely epic how stubborn she is.


----------



## ButtPunch

Ohhhh....and stop talking this when she comes back crap.

She may....She may not.

She may live happily ever after with Starbucks tool.

She may join the circus.

None of which is in your control.


----------



## karole

I do not agree about stalling. You need to protect yourself and your children. Your wife is already way ahead of you in that aspect. Please, go talk to an attorney (a very good attorney) and at least get a consultation to see what you should be doing and what you can expect from the divorce. And as is recommended on this site, please get a VAR and keep on you at all times when interacting with your wife. Your wife isn't going to play fair - do whatever you have to to convince yourself of that fact.


----------



## jld

I would listen to your IC, grid. She still sees hope or she would not press you to bring your wife in and continue MC.

Since you like brutal honesty . . . This marriage failed/is failing due to your anger. It hardened your wife's heart and made her vulnerable to another man.

But like always, if you broke it, you can at least work towards fixing it.

The "support" you are getting here seems mostly geared toward feeding a sense of bitterness and self-pity and self-righteousness. Not going to heal the marriage nor help you be the best you can be in a new relationship.

Get hold of your anger, grid. Work on your own issues. And listen to the advice you are *paying* for.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

I had a long post, but no.

Go get a lawyer before you lose more than you know. 


> Especially her stubbornness. It is absolutely epic how stubborn she is


Yeah, I can tell you are angry and starting to see the light. You are slowly starting to drop reasons why your arguments were mutually terrible. You had a terrible teacher and she knew how to push buttons. If you stick around, I expect a few argument stories which end with "yeah, you were over the top, but she was just as bad."

All I'll say is, notice what the people IN YOUR situation keep saying.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> I would listen to your IC, grid. She still sees hope or she would not press you to bring your wife in and continue MC.
> 
> *Since you like brutal honesty . . . This marriage failed/is failing due to your anger*. It hardened your wife's heart and made her vulnerable to another man.
> 
> But like always, if you broke it, you can at least work towards fixing it.
> 
> The "support" you are getting here seems mostly geared toward feeding a sense of bitterness and self-pity and self-righteousness. Not going to heal the marriage nor help you be the best you can be in a new relationship.
> 
> Get hold of your anger, grid. Work on your own issues. And listen to the advice you are *paying* for.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


LMFAO

It's the gift that keeps on giving


----------



## knobcreek

jld said:


> Since you like brutal honesty . . . This marriage failed/is failing due to your anger. It hardened your wife's heart and made her vulnerable to another man.
> 
> But like always, if you broke it, you can at least work towards fixing it.


Oh please... Good grief

Is the women EVER at fault in your eyes? Like.. ever?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

jld said:


> And listen to the advice you are *paying* for.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The irony here is this therapist said you can't afford divorce, but has you spending money on therapy, is encouraging more R-ville, is trying to meet your wife, which may add a new client and to continue counseling trips. All while mutual money is going out to a divorce lawyer for your wife.


----------



## Keepin-my-head-up

You need to get a lawyer.
I don't know why you are stalling on this.
Accept the blame if you want, it doesn't matter.
She doesn't want you.
Had it Happen to me and yes, it makes the mind spin.
I get it.
Bat damn, you are so far behind the 8 ball and it sounds like your counselor thinks YOU are the one who wants the divorce.
The way you are handling things, you should sign over custody, give her max alimony, let her live in the house,etc...
Do it as a testament to how much you love her.
Do it because that is what is going to happen anyway at the rate you are going.

You say your wife is stubborn?
Think that will change when her and her lawyer sits down and discusses how her life without you can be Financially plausible if she goes after this and that?

Work on issues later.
Blame yourself all you want.
Take advice from people who wrote your wife saying she should divorce you and go for whatever she can get.
But at the least, make sure your kids have some financial security when they are with you


----------



## RoseAglow

His anger does not excuse her cheating. His anger, however, was destroying the marriage even before the cheating. He owns it, he knows it. Angry outbursts are extremely damaging. It's the garbage on his side of the road, which he is trying to clean up. If he doesn't find a way to improve, it will harm his future relationships as well. It's been a long- standing issue in his marriage.

Grid, it's understandable why you'd be so angry. It is still very damaging. 

Unfortunately, your wife will not be able to break her addiction to the OM as long as they work in the same place. It's like sending a crackhead into a crackhouse, then being shocked and taking it personally when she smokes crack. Affairs are another kind of addiction. The supply has to be cut. No matter how much she needs the money, an alcoholic still shouldn't work in a bar if she wants to stay sober. 

Why does she still have Spotify? If she is agreeing to the reconciliation "process", she should be agreeing to things like no contract, new job, no and removal of items (e.g. Smartphones, apps, social media) that made the affair possible. They work in the same area and still communicate in their code- no way can an affair die in that environment. 

I won't get into the Plan A issue of MB, but if you haven't checked it out yet, I think it's worth a look for you to review their steps for reconciliation and their extraordinary precautions. It's free on their website. I think it will give you a more complete framework that might be helpful for you.


----------



## ButtPunch

This marriage is over and has been over for 6 months now but
thanks to certain posters Grid is at step 3 of the seven stages 
of grief. Six months to get thru 2 stages. My buddy had remarried 
in that amount of time.

Grid lost six months of his life all thanks to you.


----------



## MRR

jld said:


> I would listen to your IC, grid. She still sees hope or she would not press you to bring your wife in and continue MC.
> 
> Since you like brutal honesty . . . This marriage failed/is failing due to your anger. It hardened your wife's heart and made her vulnerable to another man.
> 
> But like always, if you broke it, you can at least work towards fixing it.
> 
> The "support" you are getting here seems mostly geared toward feeding a sense of bitterness and self-pity and self-righteousness. Not going to heal the marriage nor help you be the best you can be in a new relationship.
> 
> Get hold of your anger, grid. Work on your own issues. And listen to the advice you are *paying* for.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Can you get more wrong? Wow. 

Grid-- I HOPE that just because someone mentioned that she might come back 6 months after the divorce and ask for R doesnt mean now that you are going to go through another 6 months of h#ll with this woman. 

And please quit worrying about what your wife thinks, what her beef is with you, or what her justification is. None of it matters. She will find whatever reason she wants whether logical or not. So do not focus on improving your anger/temper issues so she wont have a reason to divorce you, do it FOR YOU and your kids. Your wife will just find another reason. 

Good. Lord.


----------



## RoseAglow

ButtPunch said:


> This marriage is over and has been over for 6 months now but
> thanks to certain posters Grid is at step 3 of the seven stages
> of grief. Six months to get thru 2 stages. My buddy had remarried
> in that amount of time.
> 
> Grid lost six months of his life all thanks to you.


Maybe the marriage is over, but Grid is the person who has to look at himself in the mirror. He'll be the dad who loses a whole lot of time with his kids. No one here can make him keep fighting for his marriage or decide that the battle is over. It needs to be his decision. No one else can set his time schedule. At least he knows that he's putting in his best attempt to save the marriage. (It would be even MORE concerning if he were re-married yo someone new in six months!)


----------



## ButtPunch

RoseAglow said:


> Maybe the marriage is over, but Grid is the person who has to look at himself in the mirror. He'll be the dad who loses a whole lot of time with his kids. No one here can make him keep fighting for his marriage or decide that the battle is over. It needs to be his decision. No one else can set his time schedule. At least he knows that he's putting in his best attempt to save the marriage. (It would be even MORE concerning if he were re-married yo someone new in six months!)


What you call fighting is what I call harmful codependent behavior.


----------



## eric1

Yup! Not my Circus, Not my Monkies is what Grid needs to keep repeating to himself


----------



## Keepin-my-head-up

His wife filed and has an attorney.
So she can determine when it is over.
Did you miss that part?
Yes, he can fight it and deny it til the judge says "done!".
The advice some are giving is for him to start getting ready for that to happen.

Of course it will be his decision or lack of one that he alone will live with.
Well him and his kids.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Oh good lord let's not do this again. People do give bad advice on this website and it sets people back. Denying that is ridiculous, but at the end of the day it is his life. 

Get a lawyer.


----------



## Sammy64

ButtPunch said:


> This marriage is over and has been over for 6 months now but
> thanks to certain posters Grid is at step 3 of the seven stages
> of grief. Six months to get thru 2 stages. My buddy had remarried
> in that amount of time.
> 
> Grid lost six months of his life all thanks to you.



:iagree:
QFT !!! this would be in a different place now if he would have followed everyone else advise, but he chose to follow one of us and like above... step 3 .. he should be at step 5-6 by now, Enjoying his life !!


----------



## knobcreek

"Fighting" for a marriage while the wife is still in the midst of an affair by being a sniveling baby and ranting is not "fighting" for anything. She's probably loving the power and control she has over him right now. He needs to completely reverse what he's been doing, cut out the emotional BS (you can do it through sheer strength of will), cut her off and completely detach.

And get a new therapist, you're getting terrible advice, there are 10 terrible ones for every good one.


----------



## Evinrude58

jld said:


> Since you like brutal honesty . . . This marriage failed/is failing due to your anger. It hardened your wife's heart and made her vulnerable to another man.
> 
> 
> May I suggest that the source of your anger is not your lack of control, but is the result of your wife's failure to EVER acknowledge wrongdoing, EVER saying she is sorry, and ALWAYS placing blame on YOU when she is CLEARLY in the wrong.
> 
> I'm totally projecting here, but I have found that there are two people in my life that cause me to get angry very quickly. One is my ex wife, the other my eldest son. Both of them have a distinguished tendency to place blame on others (ME) and never show remorse when they are clearly in the wrong. My son even told me recently that the reason he was making bad grades (b's) is that whenever he was taking a test, he would think about me griping at him about it (and that's all I've done is gripe a little and tell him I'm disappointed because I know he's capable of doing better), and that is why he did poorly. It had nothing to do with a total lack of studying and playing games and texting on his Iphone6 (his mom bought him) on the couch all the time. Keep in mind he could make straight A's with minimal effort. He has a high IQ and usually scores "advanced" on standardized tests.
> 
> I pretty much never get angry at my other 2 children, my current gf, or anyone else for that matter. I've maintained relationships for a lifetime with my best friend, my dad, coworkers, never been fired from a job, etc. I can get along with people.
> 
> How about you, Grid? Can you get along with people on average?
> Do you maintain lifelong friendships?
> If the answer is yes, have you ever thought that your temper problem JUST MIGHT NOT BE ALL YOU????????? Yes, you are likely to blame for lots of stuff, but I'll bet your marriage failed because your wife is a self-centered, selfish little blame-shifter as much as your own efforts to work too hard and your "temper".
> 
> Temper problems can be real for sure. How is your temper with other people? That is a good indicator of your overall temper to me.
> Your failure to control your temper with your remorseless cheating wife is totally understandable and HEALTHY.
> 
> THink about it. And stop placing all blame on yourself. A failed marriage is rarely all one person's fault. You have your cross to bear. I'll bet she's dragging a pretty nice one as well.


----------



## LongWalk

Grid,

You will never know if you have any chance to save your marriage as long as you remain stuck in your current state, straining with all your might to salvage it in its current condition.

As long as you pursue her, the message is "baby, it doesn't matter how you wrong me. I will love you till the day I die." That's pretty flattering to her. Furthermore, as long as you keep forgiving her, giving her chances, getting worked up, she has no reason to take a hard look at herself. She is after all desirable to two men.

The fact that she is dragging it out suggests that she knows OM's apartment is waiting for some woman to clean it. But who knows maybe he is a genius who is writing the screen play that will be a Hollywood movie. The only way you can force her hand is to end the limbo.

At this point even JLD would probably advise you to cut your loses.

Don't share your IC with your wife. She is just trying to gain a client.

PIXIES LYRICS
"Bone Machine"

You're into Japanese fast food
And I drop you off with your Japanese lover
And you go to the beach all day
You're so pretty when you're unfaithful to me
You're so pretty when you're unfaithful to me

You're looking like
You've got some sun
Your blistered lips
Have got a kiss
They taste a bit like everyone
Uh-oh, Uh-oh, Uh-oh, Uh-oh

Your bones got a little machine
You're the bone machine

I was talking to preachy-preach about kissy-kiss....

10 second drum solo at the beginning


----------



## RoseAglow

ButtPunch said:


> What you call fighting is what I call harmful codependent behavior.


Well, maybe it is co-dependent, if it's a last desperate grasp trying to hold on. 

Or, maybe it's a man who is dedicated to making some serious and hard-core changes. Angry outbursts destroy relationships. Believe this: mentally/emotionally healthy women are not going to be attracted to men who have an explosive temper. If he is getting divorced, he'll get much higher quality women if he can get his temper under control. He can master it now and it will benefit him, regardless of whether or not his wife is around later to benefit.

Btw if he were to read MB he'd see encouragement to lawyer up immediately to protect himself. It would have recommended upon the discovery of the affair. And he'd have different steps offered to actually kill the affair. 

She made a start but has fallen back. I know that that should spell the end for most TAMers but most infidelity specialists know that a "relapse" is expected. Even his Retrouvillers knew it and that's why they take a long perspective. MB takes action to make the relapse much less possible. 

If he wants to keep going, there's more he can try. If he's done, no one could blame him. But ultimately, he has to live with the decision. I would not blame him either way, but I think it's valuable for several perspectives to be offered.


----------



## RoseAglow

knobcreek said:


> "Fighting" for a marriage while the wife is still in the midst of an affair by being a sniveling baby and ranting is not "fighting" for anything. She's probably loving the power and control she has over him right now. He needs to completely reverse what he's been doing, cut out the emotional BS (you can do it through sheer strength of will), cut her off and completely detach.
> 
> And get a new therapist, you're getting terrible advice, there are 10 terrible ones for every good one.


I agree that fighting for the marriage without trying to kill the affair is a very painful and damaging exercise in futility.

Killing the affair and stopping his damaging behaviors is a great start to a possible strong reconciliation. And if there is no reconciliation, it's a turning point for him for his next relationship; he'll have already worked out his worst marital trait and will be ready to be a much stronger partner.


----------



## knobcreek

I feel like people are trying to mindfvck this poor guy, like "how long can I keep this guy self-loathing and miserable with my terrible advice". This is a train wreck to read and witness, sorry I stumbled across it to be honest, I'll be bummed the rest of the night from this thread.


----------



## Evinrude58

RoseAglow said:


> Well, maybe it is co-dependent, if it's a last desperate grasp trying to hold on.
> 
> Or, maybe it's a man who is dedicated to making some serious and hard-core changes. Angry outbursts destroy relationships. Believe this: mentally/emotionally healthy women are not going to be attracted to men who have an explosive temper. If he is getting divorced, he'll get much higher quality women if he can get his temper under control. He can master it now and it will benefit him, regardless of whether or not his wife is around later to benefit.
> 
> Btw if he were to read MB he'd see encouragement to lawyer up immediately to protect himself. It would have recommended upon the discovery of the affair. And he'd have different steps offered to actually kill the affair.
> 
> She made a start but has fallen back. I know that that should spell the end for most TAMers but most infidelity specialists know that a "relapse" is expected. Even his Retrouvillers knew it and that's why they take a long perspective. MB takes action to make the relapse much less possible.
> 
> If he wants to keep going, there's more he can try. If he's done, no one could blame him. But ultimately, he has to live with the decision. I would not blame him either way, but I think it's valuable for several perspectives to be offered.


I disagree that she ever made a start. I disagree that there is anything left he can do with a woman that clearly doesn't love him and clearly does love another, and won't work with him to change that.
I do agree about the angry outbursts destroying a marriage. I agree he needs to work on that. But, I think the angry outbursts COULD be the result of living with a person that has problems of their own that they aren't dealing with. Problems that manifest themselves as a cheater who shows no remorse and places blame for the cheating on the husband.


----------



## Bibi1031

ButtPunch said:


> LMFAO


I'm sorry, but Buttpunch is absolutely correct in laughing his butt off on the particular response he quoted.

some peeps are just dead wrong in their advice...JMHO though.:wink2:


----------



## soccermom2three

Evinrude58 said:


> I disagree that she ever made a start. I disagree that there is anything left he can do with a woman that clearly doesn't love him and clearly does love another, and won't work with him to change that.
> I do agree about the angry outbursts destroying a marriage. I agree he needs to work on that. But, I think the angry outbursts COULD be the result of living with a person that has problems of their own that they aren't dealing with. Problems that manifest themselves as a cheater who shows no remorse and places blame for the cheating on the husband.


Grid's angry outbursts are not a recent thing. He has admitted that they happened throughout the marriage, along with threatening divorce as a manipulation tactic.


----------



## ButtPunch

Grid

Does your anger interfere with your business and personal relationships as well?

Has your anger been a problem in previous romantic relationships?

Or is it just this one?


----------



## knobcreek

RoseAglow said:


> I agree that fighting for the marriage without trying to kill the affair is a very painful and damaging exercise in futility.
> 
> Killing the affair and stopping his damaging behaviors is a great start to a possible strong reconciliation. And if there is no reconciliation, it's a turning point for him for his next relationship; he'll have already worked out his worst marital trait and will be ready to be a much stronger partner.


Of course he should work on any anger issues via therapy, no one wants to be married to a man who appears unhinged. But he needs to do that away from this woman who is likely the source of 90% of his anger issues. Him staying where he's at is mental torture, his wife is having an affair, shows no signs of stopping it, and wants a divorce, he needs to detach emotionally so he can heal himself.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

He is in therapy working on his issues, I don't understand why people act like he has been twiddling his thumbs for the last nearly six months.

This guy is working on his anger, but his wife continually lies, talks openly on the phone and then says "yeah, I don't want this to work." You don't fix a problem by keeping the cause right in front of the person. Stalling, waiting, listening and her stubborness isn't going to help him do anything, but get an ulcer or have a heart attack.


----------



## Evinrude58

soccermom2three said:


> Grid's angry outbursts are not a recent thing. He has admitted that they happened throughout the marriage, along with threatening divorce as a manipulation tactic.


I can't disagree. But, were his "angry outbursts" and divorce threats (I remember that now, and I am ABSOLUTELY against ever making a totally uncalled for threat like that in a marriage) more often than not the result of his lack of anger control, or were they the result of dealing with a person who cannot accept blame, cannot apologize for a wrong, and cannot see the other person's perspective? In Grid's position, he may only be able to remember the outbursts that he knows were his own fault. He is unlikely able to be in the unbiased state of mind that enables him to be able to see that in many of these outbursts, he was just acting out of complete frustration due to a partner that is oblivious to their own bad behavior.

I don't know for sure. He may be an temper-tantrum-throwing baby who flies off the handle at the drop of a hat, and may well have caused problems in this marriage as a result. But, I think that her cheating on him and rubbing it in his face, and telling HER OWN HUSBAND that it's his fault she cheated and that she loves another man is something that shows a helluva lot about her.

Either way, he is well past the point of trying to salvage this marriage. It's been burned to a crisp and he is only serving her own selfish needs by dragging this out and not selling their home and both getting separate living quarters. He's going to have to do it soon, anyway. He should do it sooner than later so he doesn't drag out the pain. I happen to know from experience that it's a pain that cannot be endured for long without consequences.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Grid - dude. Seriously. End. It. Already.

Get as angry as you want. That's all BS.

SHE IS THE PROBLEM NOT YOU


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Being in limbo is going to ALWAYS cause regression. 


Think about it this way grid, why do they remove people from bad situations?
They don't treat an alcoholic in a bar or around liquor.
They don't treat an abused spouse in or around the abuser.
They don't treat a drug addict in a rave or around drugs.

Yet, here we sit reading, with people who keep pointing out you have anger management issues, while you are told to wait in limbo stall stall stall like reconciliation is some type of panacea.


We are rehashing the "same ole, same ole" again and I won't be party to this again.



If you choose to move forward:
Get an infidelity based therapist.
Get a lawyer.
Protect your parental rights first and foremost.

Good luck grid.


----------



## azteca1986

jld said:


> And listen to the advice you are *paying* for.


He paid for listening to terrible advice with six months of his life.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

JLD's advice was so horribly and offensively wrong I blocked her. But because of the quote function I hear her little echoes of "grid you're s bad person / you caused a good woman to go astray against her will - you must earn your wings and save this poor, helpless victim back from the guy you pushed her to - you are broken - you are an abuser - you are vile - you need therapy". 

But it's only an echo of your abusive wife and it's not real.


----------



## Keepin-my-head-up

As far as I know, there are no states that require both parties to agree to a divorce.
Also, if a judge orders a couple to go to counseling, would the Retro have counted?

You think she is telling her lawyer about your anger issues and the fact that she wentered to counseling to work on the marriage?
Even if it was your idea, she is going thru it as well.

Would a good lawyer spin it to where the OM was a safety retreat?
Would it even matter as far as custody?

Has she been in contact with the lawyer?
Do you even know?

Lastly, do you think that she is not planning the logistics of leaving and her lawyer is working on the Financials of it?

And if she is, that is more power to her because that is what she should be doing considering she retained a lawyer,filed and had you served.

She is doing everything right.
Maybe even pushing your buttons to get you to go volcanic.
She is doing everything that a person who wants divorce would do.

What are you doing?


----------



## LongWalk

jld said:


> I would listen to your IC, grid. She still sees hope or she would not press you to bring your wife in and continue MC.
> 
> *Grid should not get his therapist into a conflict of interest.*situation.
> 
> Since you like brutal honesty . . . This marriage failed/is failing due to your anger. It hardened your wife's heart and made her vulnerable to another man.
> 
> *You are assuming a great deal here JLD. Grid may not have been a perfect husband, but his anger and her stubbornness are a duet. Look at Grid's avatar. He is self critical and probably always has been.
> 
> Men and women fall out of love because they get bored. Seek affirmation, etc. Laying all the blame on Grid is wrong. She chose to cheat. Moreover, the cheating and lying went on for a year by her own admission. When she raised the curtain on Dday what percentage of the truth did she cough up? People rarely confess all their sins in one go. *
> 
> But like always, if you broke it, you can at least work towards fixing it.
> 
> *The best way for Grid to fix it is get out of the co-dependent victim chair. He needs to see the divorce through.*
> 
> The "support" you are getting here seems mostly geared toward feeding a sense of bitterness and self-pity and self-righteousness. Not going to heal the marriage nor help you be the best you can be in a new relationship.
> 
> *This is incorrect. I would even go so far as to say that Grid is going to make it. He promised he would try sleeping in the church at Retrouvaille, but his wife was just using it to buy time.
> 
> She broke no contact. That was only an instance that Grid discovered. Smart money says that the affair has been going on continuously at some level.
> *
> 
> Get hold of your anger, grid. Work on your own issues. And listen to the advice you are *paying* for.


JLD,

A question for you: do you believe that Grid's wife feels anger towards him because he pushed her to have sex when she was saving herself for OM? Does she now feel that her relationship with OM is ruining because she cheated on him with Grid? Is that one reason she is not regretful or remorseful?

In her fantasy world OM would have enough money to buy a white horse and ponies for the girls, but he works at Starbucks.

Do you think that the idea of hunting for rich husband bothers her?

I suspect that it does. She blames Grid primarily and OM secondarily that she is in this position.


----------



## just got it 55

jld said:


> I would listen to your IC, grid. She still sees hope or she would not press you to bring your wife in and continue MC.
> 
> Since you like brutal honesty . . . This marriage failed/is failing due to your anger. It hardened your wife's heart and made her vulnerable to another man.
> 
> But like always, if you broke it, you can at least work towards fixing it.
> 
> The "support" you are getting here seems mostly geared toward feeding a sense of bitterness and self-pity and self-righteousness. Not going to heal the marriage nor help you be the best you can be in a new relationship.
> 
> Get hold of your anger, grid. Work on your own issues. And listen to the advice you are *paying* for.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just stop this madness before you do more harm

55


----------



## gridcom

Keepin-my-head-up said:


> You need to get a lawyer.
> I don't know why you are stalling on this.


Sorry if this hasnt been mentioned, but I have a lawyer. I actually have 2 lawyers, one who is more a family lawyer who is consulting me but doesnt want to be my main lawyer. I have a lawyer here in town. He is on retainer. I am seeing him.


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## gridcom

Evinrude58 said:


> I disagree that she ever made a start. I disagree that there is anything left he can do with a woman that clearly doesn't love him and clearly does love another, and won't work with him to change that.
> I do agree about the angry outbursts destroying a marriage. I agree he needs to work on that. But, I think the angry outbursts COULD be the result of living with a person that has problems of their own that they aren't dealing with. Problems that manifest themselves as a cheater who shows no remorse and places blame for the cheating on the husband.


Nice one!


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## cbnero

Just to put this in perspective:

If you have a relationship with another person, and this person is NPD, you will often find that your feelings will not be validated at any level. The other party will not apologize in return when you offer it after a mutual argument. They are incapable. 

That isn't an excuse for an outburst. But it is very difficult to be with that person. I'm not diagnosing grids wife as NPD but she definitely has the characteristics. Grid cannot change her and it's unlikely she will ever change. She is a chameleon.

Stop talking to her. Pedal to the floor on the divorce. Stop rocking the pop machine!


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## gridcom

ButtPunch said:


> Grid
> 
> Does your anger interfere with your business and personal relationships as well?
> 
> Has your anger been a problem in previous romantic relationships?
> 
> Or is it just this one?


My anger doesnt interfere with any other relationships, quite honestly. My anger in business is "flamboyant music business negotiator" and it always comes with a huge dose of humor and "it's only rocknroll, right?"

In my personal life, I had some issues with my mother ater my father died, if I am being honest. But, my closest friends have all been friends for a long time. My work relationships I feel are more than work relationships, that have grown into true peer to peer respect. I am well respected in my line of work and generally known as an animated fun guy to do business with.

So, to answer the questions completely honestly, while I am not "mild mannered", I certainly live life heavily on humor and being animated, but I dont have anger issues with people in my daily orbit, ever.


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## just got it 55

Grid.... I get the anger I am just as you with anger

In my younger days my father use to say I was even tempered he would say

I woke up mad and stayed that way

Now I channel that sh!t

However... if someone throws rocks at me I get mad and react
then they get mad because I reacted then they throw more rocks.

Now I am in rage because that sh!t really hurts bouncing off my head

Can anybody blame me ?

Mrs.Grid is a rock thrower and she knows full well how you would react and she is mad that you react as she expects.

So what should she expect ?

You can't fix crazy

55


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## ThreeStrikes

For future relationships, bear in mind that a sure relationship-killer for a woman is if her partner frequently lashes out in anger.

So #1, avoid relationships with personality/character-disordered women who would evoke angry outbursts in anyone, let alone you.

Because, face it: it's normal to be angry at someone who lies to you, betrays you, and emotionally abuses you.

It will definitely help you, Grid, to learn phrases like "I'm not OK with that" or "I'm sorry you feel that way" and "I see things differently". Calm. Firm. Dispassionate. No angry outbursts.

I'm confident you are on the right path. Your introspection and willingness to own your POS tendencies is encouraging.

Your next relationship will be very fulfilling, provided you continue to grow, and avoid personality/character disordered women.

Stick with IC. Ditch Retro and any sort of MC. Focus on you.


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## RoseAglow

Grid, I stand by my statement that your recent angry outbursts were understandable. They also remains damaging, even if just to you. You surely don't feel good about it, as you've posted. I don't think you should beat yourself up about it though; what's done is done. Strategize on how to prevent it moving forward. 

It's great that you and the others are less angry with your work colleagues than with your wives and children. However, I think you're getting the wrong message if you think it shows that the problem is therefore with your wives and children. As adults, we are responsible for our own emotional reactions. On past threads, what you're going through would be visualized as your wife trying to push the buttons on the soda machine (e.g. your "buttons") to get her favorite soda (your reaction), and they would be encouraging you to detach, get to 50,000 feet. I think this advice would serve you much better than, "she made you lose it!"

I think you've been putting in a huge and tremendous effort. I haven't read all the pages; I thought she said that she was willing to end the affair and agreed to the Retrouviller program. If you truly feel that she's waivering, or that she knows that she's making a bad choice but just can't seem to break the addiction, I do think that there is more that you might try- namely, go full force against the affair. Do whatever you can to get her to agree to leave the job- nothing good can happen as long as they work in the same place. If she's using her money for her phone and Internet, if your kids and Everone important to her knows about the affair it, if it's been reported to work, then you really have done everything you can. It would be a success if you made it so difficult to pursue her affair at home that she left- that usually kills the affair faster. 

If you're done, no one could blame you. You've certainly put up a strong fight. The only thing to do at that point would be to pick up, move on, and learn as much as you can do that you pick a better, and you become a better partner, for future relationships. I think you're working on the personal improvement already.


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## jld

Rose, did you read the advice from the IC? What did you think of it?

It sounds like some of Plan B. But the IC is not giving up on the marriage. I think she thinks the affair will burn out. 

I think grid should follow the advice of the IC. If she has not given up on the marriage, there must be a good reason for that.

But no matter what, grid will help himself by working on his anger issues.


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## ButtPunch

Grid

Anger issues with your kids? I've read your entire thread and never remember this being mentioned. Where did Rose get this from.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Evinrude58

ButtPunch said:


> Grid
> 
> Anger issues with your kids? I've read your entire thread and never remember this being mentioned. Where did Rose get this from.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I said my eldest son could get me angry(didn't say I had outbursts w him, just that he could anger me and that he had similar traits as my ex. 
Only thing I can think of
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RoseAglow

BP, I didn't get it from Grid; I was more referring to the group of posters who were talking about their tendency to have anger with their wives and kids. I can see that I was not clear in my post.


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## RoseAglow

@Evinrude58, yes, yours was one. I interpreted your post to mean that you had angry outbursts with your son and ex-wife, and that your son would do things like purposely fail classes in order to push your buttons.


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## gridcom

Wow, what a day. Is it already almost 8pm? I'm just getting started over here. Thanks for all the feedback once again. 

I'll be honest, I was kind of hoping that my IC would tell me to press the gas towards mediation/divorce etc. It bummed me out that she was so "you two are so ridiculous" and dont get me wrong, I am not saying her word trumps anybody else's. I am talking to a mob of people here with a wealth of knowledge on infidelity. 

I sent my wife an e-mail last night telling her my terms for moving out, financially speaking. It's pretty simple, and fair. I want to be able to have an apartment with two bedrooms, so my kids can have their own room in "their other" house, as opposed to sharing a futon in the living room of a one bedroom. My wife said she's willing to eat tomato soup every day as she grew up poor. i told her just because she grew up poor eating welfare bread doesn't mean we can't flinch at the thought of that happening to our (my) little girls. I myself, I worked to f^cking hard to eat tomato soup. I am not willing. I am ready to leave under the terms I laid out, which is basically I have to be able to afford it. 

I have a lawyer, like I said. I am seeing him again on Monday. Retainer has been paid. Some of my family ponied up their life savings and just gave it to me for the cause. I feel bad taking that money, but I am going to take it and hopefully pay it back in short order. I prefer mediation, but like my wife, I am going to have a lawyer walk me through it every step of the way. 

The thing is, she cant afford to live here under the financial terms I laid out, which is no surprise to me, her, or any of you. Even if she gets a full time job paying 40k, and another part time 2 nights a week bringing in another 8-10k per year, she still will struggle beyond any reasonable comprehension. Maybe she'll have a roommate move in here. Maybe a relative. Maybe she'll ultimately agree to sell the house or let me live in it with the kids. Whatever. Fact of the matter is, divorce is going to more than hurt finanically. And it's going to hurt the kids the most and me the least. Not that it wont hurt me, dont get me wrong, but it's going to hurt me the least. 

And the key there is that it's going to suck eggs for my girls. SUCK EGGS. 

But, as much as I sit her right now and wish we could just move ahead like my IC suggests, there is no moving ahead. I can't trust her at all. For five months, especially after we decided to start counseling and set retrouvaille (early Sept, when she filed for divorce), I trusted her NO CONTACT bullsh^t. I gave her the benefit of the doubt, against most of your suggestions, and trusted that she would not engage this man while we were working on our marriage. And even when we had bumps in the road, usually brought on by me wanting to move faster and being frustrated that she would say that she "felt nothing" for me, I trusted that there was NO CONTACT.

Now that it's been established that she was lying the whole time, I literally am left with no choice. Literally. No choice. 

Sucks. I'm not angry today, or sad. It happened on Monday and here we are Thursday and I've accepted the new course. It took a few days. I came back here and brought you all back into my life. After much thought, I decided last night that I am going to live close to my kids. I'm not going to live right here in town, but 10-15 minutes away. I was very much toying with the idea of living in Queens , where I have friends and family, but I want to see my kids every single day if I can. i know that it's not always going to be possible. Hell, I live with them and sometimes I dont see them every single day anyway. But, I want them to know that I am close. That I am still kind of part of their community. Plus, deep down, I like the suburbs. Even if I am divorced.

So, I am not dumb enough to think that I wont feel pain going forward, or reconsider, or forget what what my wife actually did (as opposed to my reaction to what she did), but I am now convinced that there is no other way. I honestly have no guilt about I handled the affair. I hung in there, and tried my best, did what was best for my kids. I took a lot of "rocks to the head" and ignored most of them, just so their lives would remain unchanged. I wish this happened when they were older, like in 7 years. 10 and 5 years old, that f^cking BLOWS


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## lifeistooshort

The argument that one doesn't show anger to bosses/coworkers/friends and therefore any anger directed at a spouse must mean the spouse is behaving in ways that elicit anger is ridiculous. 

You can't compare the intimate relationship of spouses to the one you have with anyone else. And besides, there are people who treat their spouses like crap all the time that wouldn't dare treat their boss/coworkers/friends like that; they just figure spouse has to put up with it. Once vows are taken some spouses forget about the love and cherish part and figure everyone's in it till death. They know a boss will fire them if they act like s jerk.

Remember that very often the worst abusers have everyone around them convinced they're charming and great people. Of course I'm not suggesting that grid is an abuser, just that behavior directed at spouses is often quite different then everyone else sees.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gridcom

ButtPunch said:


> Grid
> 
> Anger issues with your kids? I've read your entire thread and never remember this being mentioned. Where did Rose get this from.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No anger issues with my kids. I discipline them the right way. I teach them. They'll do something stupid and I'll take their ipad away for a day or two. Sometimes, my wife or my mother will tell me I am being harsh, but c'mon. This world has gotten too soft, but that's a whole other subject.

Anger issues? No. They did see me get angry at my wife though, sadly and unfortunately.


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## gridcom

lifeistooshort said:


> The argument that one doesn't show anger to bosses/coworkers/friends and therefore any anger directed at a spouse must mean the spouse is behaving in ways that elicit anger is ridiculous.
> 
> You can't compare the intimate relationship of spouses to the one you have with anyone else. And besides, there are people who treat their spouses like crap all the time that wouldn't dare treat their boss/coworkers/friends like that; they just figure spouse has to put up with it. Once vows are taken some spouses forget about the love and cherish part and figure everyone's in it till death. They know a boss will fire them if they act like s jerk.
> 
> Remember that very often the worst abusers have everyone around them convinced they're charming and great people. Of course I'm not suggesting that grid is an abuser, just that behavior directed at spouses is often quite sift then everyone else sees.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree.


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## Keepin-my-head-up

Grid,
So glad to hear you have an attorney.

Also, don't wait for the affair to burn out.
That is....
I don't even have words for it.
I do know that unless you have been or are going thru it, you will not understand the torture doing just that will bring upon you.


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## just got it 55

Grid as far as time with your babies when you split

You hopefully will be with them 50% of the time 

In that time you can be with them [100% Dad time] of the time instead of 50 % of the 100 %

Get it?.... it can be the same amount of time if you can utilize it all.

I know you can make it all count

55


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## RoseAglow

Grid, I think your MC was trying to get you to wait out the affair; most die relatively quickly after exposure. File for divorce then drag it out is a well-known strategy to combat infidelity. 

You've made a decision and a plan to move forward. I hope it's the start to a better future for you. I think in general, it's a lot easier to move forward once there is a plan of action.


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## Evinrude58

lifeistooshort said:


> The argument that one doesn't show anger to bosses/coworkers/friends and therefore any anger directed at a spouse must mean the spouse is behaving in ways that elicit anger is ridiculous.
> 
> You can't compare the intimate relationship of spouses to the one you have with anyone else. And besides, there are people who treat their spouses like crap all the time that wouldn't dare treat their boss/coworkers/friends like that; they just figure spouse has to put up with it. Once vows are taken some spouses forget about the love and cherish part and figure everyone's in it till death. They know a boss will fire them if they act like s jerk.
> 
> Remember that very often the worst abusers have everyone around them convinced they're charming and great people. Of course I'm not suggesting that grid is an abuser, just that behavior directed at spouses is often quite sift then everyone else sees.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> I don't believe it's ridiculous. People
> with anger problems will show it in other aspects of their lives. I agree with the boss thing and such, and that some people abuse their wives secretly for sure. I'm just suggesting that grid is not some anger-ridden jerk that pushes his wife around and makes her afraid to move. What she has done with this affair thing, throwing it in grids face and feeding him poo sandwiches shows that she is not the least bit worried about grid's "temper problem".
> I'm glad that Grid has decided not to let this woman rule his emotions anymore. I think as I have said before, that Grid will likely find he has no temper problem to fix once he finds a woman with no personality disorder.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## just got it 55

RoseAglow said:


> Grid, I think your MC was trying to get you to wait out the affair; most die relatively quickly after exposure. File for divorce then drag it out is a well-known strategy to combat infidelity.
> 
> You've made a decision and a plan to move forward. I hope it's the start to a better future for you. I think in general, it's a lot easier to move forward once there is a plan of action.


Out of Limbo and out of Infidelity 

That's a great start to your new life.

55


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## LongWalk

Why are you going to move out?

If you split your assets 50/50, will she have enough to buy out your equity in the house?

Does she expect child support and alimony?


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## lifeistooshort

Evinrude58 said:


> lifeistooshort said:
> 
> 
> 
> The argument that one doesn't show anger to bosses/coworkers/friends and therefore any anger directed at a spouse must mean the spouse is behaving in ways that elicit anger is ridiculous.
> 
> You can't compare the intimate relationship of spouses to the one you have with anyone else. And besides, there are people who treat their spouses like crap all the time that wouldn't dare treat their boss/coworkers/friends like that; they just figure spouse has to put up with it. Once vows are taken some spouses forget about the love and cherish part and figure everyone's in it till death. They know a boss will fire them if they act like s jerk.
> 
> Remember that very often the worst abusers have everyone around them convinced they're charming and great people. Of course I'm not suggesting that grid is an abuser, just that behavior directed at spouses is often quite sift then everyone else sees.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> I don't believe it's ridiculous. People
> with anger problems will show it in other aspects of their lives. I agree with the boss thing and such, and that some people abuse their wives secretly for sure. I'm just suggesting that grid is not some anger-ridden jerk that pushes his wife around and makes her afraid to move. What she has done with this affair thing, throwing it in grids face and feeding him poo sandwiches shows that she is not the least bit worried about grid's "temper problem".
> I'm glad that Grid has decided not to let this woman rule his emotions anymore. I think as I have said before, that Grid will likely find he has no temper problem to fix once he finds a woman with no personality disorder.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> 
> 
> We'll have to agree to disagree. There are some people that will direct anger towards everyone, but not directing anger at anyone else is not cause to assume the spouse must elicit this anger. Some people just use spouses as emotional punching bags.
> 
> And there is a unique power dynamic in play where spouses are concerned.
> 
> It happens all the time, both men and women. We've seen many times where a guy will come on and talk about how his wife rages at him but to everyone else she's a great wife/mother/etc. That's part of what makes those on the receiving end feel crazy and that nobody will believe him.
> 
> Grid's wife doesn't fear him because he's not an abuser and has given her no reason to think he's dangerous. Immature and jerkish at times maybe, but abusive and dangerous no.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
Click to expand...


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## gridcom

LongWalk said:


> Why are you going to move out?
> 
> If you split your assets 50/50, will she have enough to buy out your equity in the house?
> 
> Does she expect child support and alimony?


She says no alimony. I did tell her that if she wants alimony, lets save the money we are going to spend on mediation and go straight to the bulldog lawyers.

I also told her I wanted it in the agreement that that man can never ever set foot in my house, under any circumstances. She agreed without hesitation. When I told her that once that is in the agreement, if the agreement is broken that there would be consequences, she actually debated me on this. Now, I dont know the specifics of this, but I would assume that if it's in the agreement that one party can or cant do them, then it's safe to say that breaking that agreement comes with some form of punishment.

I know consequences and dealing with them is a very foreign concept to my wife, but she is about to deal with consequences from every direction very very soon. 

We have 70k of debt. We would net about 85k if we sold the house. But from what I understand is that because I make about 88% of the money that currently comes into this family, I am responsible for 88% of the debt. I am going to get clarity on this come Monday, but yeah

I'd love to stay living in my house, man. i dont want to go, but I do agree 100000% that we cannot live together even another week without more drama

I can be cool and calm, but it's best for me to be cool and calm from a distance. This much is clear. I dont want the kids to move out, and they simply wont accept "mom" moving out. Me moving out is the only scenario of the three that makes sense


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## lifeistooshort

I'm not sure you can enforce an agreement regarding him coming into the house. What kind of consequences do you imagine you can impose? 

I know it sucks but once you guys are done it really isn't your concern who she brings around provided your kids are treated well.

Be careful with that one, there may come a day when you want a gf and if you've established a precedent of controlling who she brings around she might turn around and do the same to you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## gridcom

lifeistooshort said:


> I'm not sure you can enforce an agreement regarding him coming into the house. What kind of consequences do you imagine you can impose?
> 
> I know it sucks but once you guys are done it really isn't your concern who she brings around provided your kids are treated well.
> 
> Be careful with that one, there may come a day when you want a gf and if you've established a precedent of controlling who she brings around she might turn around and do the same to you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have been told by my lawyer that you can put almost anything into a mediation agreement. Bottom line is, that guy is never setting foot in this house. Logic and everything else goes out the window. It's not happening. She can move in with him or they can move in somewhere else, but this house ..... no effing way.

And as far as me, I would not have a lady friend introduced to my children for at least a year, and even then I wouldn't have any over night visitors while they were also at my home for at least 18 months+

I guess I feel this is very sensitive, to introduce new partners to your kids. When my wife and I broke up briefly back in 1998 for about 8 months, I dated a woman who already had three kids and she was rummaging through men, including me, sleeping in their home. And I just felt bad for those kids. 

Regardless, this is an important issue for me


----------



## lifeistooshort

gridcom said:


> I have been told by my lawyer that you can put almost anything into a mediation agreement. Bottom line is, that guy is never setting foot in this house. Logic and everything else goes out the window. It's not happening. She can move in with him or they can move in somewhere else, but this house ..... no effing way.
> 
> And as far as me, I would not have a lady friend introduced to my children for at least a year, and even then I wouldn't have any over night visitors while they were also at my home for at least 18 months+
> 
> I guess I feel this is very sensitive, to introduce new partners to your kids. When my wife and I broke up briefly back in 1998 for about 8 months, I dated a woman who already had three kids and she was rummaging through men, including me, sleeping in their home. And I just felt bad for those kids.
> 
> Regardless, this is an important issue for me


I agree with you, I think it's a good idea to wait before introducing new partners. I'm just curious how you'd enforce something like that and what consequences you could impose.

I mean, you could get her agree to take care of your dog but if she refused down the line what would you do about it? 

And what if she meets another guy? I'm not sure you can control when she introduces people. She's their parent too.

If my ex had demanded something like that I'd have told him to jump off a bridge, not because I intended to parade men around but because he doesn't get to control that. And my ex has brought a number of gf's and my boys but it's none of my business unless they're mistreated.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ButtPunch

He won't be able to enforce it. 

Sorry Grid.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## just got it 55

lifeistooshort said:


> I agree with you, I think it's a good idea to wait before introducing new partners. I'm just curious how you'd enforce something like that and what consequences you could impose.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


A dark alley moment for POSOM comes to mind>

55


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## ButtPunch

Sell the house and the equity pays the debt. She can get an apartment too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## gridcom

lifeistooshort said:


> I agree with you, I think it's a good idea to wait before introducing new partners. I'm just curious how you'd enforce something like that and what consequences you could impose.
> 
> I mean, you could get her agree to take care of your dog but if she refused down the line what would you do about it?
> 
> And what if she meets another guy? I'm not sure you can control when she introduces people. She's their parent too.
> 
> If my ex had demanded something like that I'd have told him to jump off a bridge, not because I intended to parade men around but because he doesn't get to control that. And my ex has brought a number of gf's and my boys but it's none of my business unless they're mistreated.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Dont care so much about other guys, but not that guy. He doesnt put his Starbucks mug down on my counter top 

Buttpunch, I've actually asked my lawyer about this and was told it is definitely something I can ask for.


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## knobcreek

ButtPunch said:


> Sell the house and the equity pays the debt. She can get an apartment too.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Absolutely, to give her the house is frankly nuts. I would stop the mediation, get a bulldog lawyer and throw her out of the house into an apartment. I know your girls will be impacted but that was her decision not yours.

What he's done is moved out, gave her the house to move her broke ass lover in with his kids. Yeah no chance. With the debt he explained, any court would order the house sold to pay off the debts accrued during the marriage.

No flipping way I would sign the mediation, no wonder his ex is trying to get it done so quickly.


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## soccermom2three

just got it 55 said:


> Just stop this madness before you do more harm
> 
> 55


Yes, all powerful JLD, please stop, because you know, even though Grid is a grown man he can't make his own decisions. :roll eyes:


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## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> Buttpunch, I've actually asked my lawyer about this and was told it is definitely something I can ask for.


I agree you can put anything in the papers however no judge is going to listen to it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Workathome

Why not sell the house, pay the debt and you both move on?


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## ButtPunch

You don't sell that house she will fu*k your credit up royally. No way mortgage company taking your name off the note.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## truster

Have you discussed custody with her? Once you've calmed down a bit, that's something you should address right away. If she wants to give you less custody than you want, in most states you're going to have to get ready to fight for your life as a father. The earlier the better, so you can start journaling your time with the kids, getting pics and videos, and doing other things to make your case as Superdad. Those things take time.


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## soccermom2three

gridcom said:


> My anger doesnt interfere with any other relationships, quite honestly. My anger in business is "flamboyant music business negotiator" and it always comes with a huge dose of humor and "it's only rocknroll, right?"
> 
> In my personal life, I had some issues with my mother ater my father died, if I am being honest. But, my closest friends have all been friends for a long time. My work relationships I feel are more than work relationships, that have grown into true peer to peer respect. I am well respected in my line of work and generally known as an animated fun guy to do business with.
> 
> So, to answer the questions completely honestly, while I am not "mild mannered", I certainly live life heavily on humor and being animated, but I dont have anger issues with people in my daily orbit, ever.


I'm not harping on you at all. My BIL has been going through the same thing you are going through with his cheating wife, it' been devastating for him but ...

Of course, you're not going to have angry outbursts with the professional people that are your bread and butter. The people in my FIL's professional life think he's the greatest guy in the world. They would never know that at home his wife and children walked on eggshells around him, (MIL still does.) He couldn't show that side of himself to his clients, customers or associates, he would lose business. I'm pretty sure some of them made him very angry but he couldn't show it to them so he would come home and one little thing that my MIL or my husband or his brothers did would set him off.


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## lifeistooshort

gridcom said:


> Dont care so much about other guys, but not that guy. He doesnt put his Starbucks mug down on my counter top
> 
> Buttpunch, I've actually asked my lawyer about this and was told it is definitely something I can ask for.


What has he said you can do about it?

That guy will be short lived anyway. She needs a guy with more money :wink2:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ButtPunch

But he would have angry outbursts with subordinates at work, waitresses, competitors etc. 

People with anger issues don't just save them for their spouse.

Grid did you have anger issues with past girlfriends?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gridcom

ButtPunch said:


> But he would have angry outbursts with subordinates at work, waitresses, competitors etc.
> 
> People with anger issues don't just save them for their spouse.
> 
> Grid did you have anger issues with past girlfriends?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I really only had one "girlfriend" before my wife, and we did have blow outs. However, it ended up that she had mental issues that effected her to this day (never married, etc).
Of note, thats how I met my wife. my HS GF went to college. Her college roommate was my wife. We didnt get together until a few years after me and the HS GF broke up.


----------



## Thundarr

ThreeStrikes said:


> Does anyone here doubt that, after the dust settles, Grid's next partner will be an upgrade over his STBXW?:wink2:
> 
> 
> JohnA said:
> 
> 
> 
> Only if he continues to own and work on his issues. Grid, if you do and then going forward using her issues as red flags you will be amazed where you find yourself.
Click to expand...

JohnA is correct Grid. Like you, I couldn't prevent my first marriage from melting down. I looked at my part in our failed marriage and saw a few things to fix. Things I did wrong including turning a blind eye to how she treated me. The bottom line is I thought I could control, manage, and fix whatever that came my way because I was arrogant.

Since then though, life has been really good. My wife now of 18 years is in a league above my ex by every standard you can come up with. I've told her before that she wouldn't like the person I used to be and I believe that. I don't even blame my ex for not being happy but she was short sighted to not see the potential in me. I was the lucky one as the BS because I had to look at myself. She was unlucky because as the WS her ego was inflated and she didn't self evaluate. That's why my life is good yet the ex has continued to make the same mistakes.


----------



## Evinrude58

gridcom said:


> Dont care so much about other guys, but not that guy. He doesnt put his Starbucks mug down on my counter top
> 
> Buttpunch, I've actually asked my lawyer about this and was told it is definitely something I can ask for.


Grid,
You can ask for it, you can get it in writing. But if she fails to follow the agreement (as my ex has done/- even allowed my youngest son to sleep with her and her bf) what are you going to do? Spend money on a lawyer to take her to court? I don't have the money for that. Bout you will either.

You have to get to the point that you don't give a **** what she does, or you will STAY angry. As people have stated, this guy doesn't make enough money to suit your wife or she'd be gone already. He's not coming around I don't think. If she is reasonably pretty, she will likely choose among suitors that are well off. Just how it works...
It's a steep learning curve w a divorce. I've learned a lot in my ordeal how things work and how some women's minds work. You'll make it, though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tom67

Evinrude58 said:


> Grid,
> You can ask for it, you can get it in writing. But if she fails to follow the agreement (as my ex has done/- even allowed my youngest son to sleep with her and her bf) what are you going to do? Spend money on a lawyer to take her to court? I don't have the money for that. Bout you will either.
> 
> You have to get to the point that you don't give a **** what she does, or you will STAY angry. As people have stated, this guy doesn't make enough money to suit your wife or she'd be gone already. He's not coming around I don't think. If she is reasonably pretty, she will likely choose among suitors that are well off. Just how it works...
> It's a steep learning curve w a divorce. I've learned a lot in my ordeal how things work and how some women's minds work. You'll make it, though.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Evin...
It's a waste of time.
Simp is going to simp.
Grid... so sad.


----------



## Chaparral

At their ages, as divorced parents, grid's future potential is going up and up. His wife's however is sinking like a rock statistically.

The odds two cheaters stick together is a meager 3 out of 100. Considering the dramatic age gap, the odds must be much worse.

Furthermore considering the age gap here, your wife must be certifiable if not evil incarnate.

It might make you feel a bit better to give posom a nick name when refering to him. I suggest Gollum (hey, I was listening to Led Zep today at work) or Possom.

Please feel free to ignore the worst advice on any thread I've seen in the years I've been here. It doesn't work, hasn't worked and will not work. Oddly, people generally learn from seeing their advice make things worse but recently that has failed to happen quite often to bad effect.


----------



## Pluto2

Divorcing couples who deal with infidelity like to put morality clauses in agreements. And yes, its your agreement and you can put pretty much whatever you want into it. But judges don't want to hear them when you try to bring a motion to enforce. So put it in and maybe her attorney won't tell her. And then you have another agreement she won't live up to. 

Sounds harsh but one of the realities you will have to find a way to come to grips with is that once you split, you cannot dictate how she lives, or who she sees, or for the most part, who she brings around the kids unless their health and safety are in jeopardy.

And I think you will have to sell the house, split the proceeds and pay off the debt. There's just no way she will be able to afford to refinance the mortgage. And leaving your name on it offers you no protection if she should stop paying. It happened to a friend of mine this summer. His STBX couldn't refinance the mortgage so under the agreement he gave her half the mortgage payment as spousal support-which she didn't pay. The house went into foreclosure and she hid that, too. He found out the house was gone and his credit was ruined when his 15 yr DD told him they were moving. so despite his efforts to make the divorce easier on the kids, they lost the house and moved anyway.


----------



## tom67

Chaparral said:


> At their ages, as divorced parents, grid's future potential is going up and up. His wife's however is sinking like a rock statistically.
> 
> The odds two cheaters stick together is a meager 3 out of 100. Considering the dramatic age gap, the odds must be much worse.
> 
> Furthermore considering the age gap here, your wife must be certifiable if not evil incarnate.
> 
> It might make you feel a bit better to give posom a nick name when refering to him. I suggest Gollum (hey, I was listening to Led Zep today at work) or Possom.
> 
> Please feel free to ignore the worst advice on any thread I've seen in the years I've been here. It doesn't work, hasn't worked and will not work. Oddly, people generally learn from seeing their advice make things worse but recently that has failed to happen quite often to bad effect.


Chap we tried
I'm out.


----------



## JohnA

What have you done to position yourself for custody? For example: house sells, her income forces her to move to another town, but with in distance NY state allows. You move to apartment complex in the same school distict your children currently attend. Court will lean towards you for primary custody as it is in best interestnof child to min disruption. 

This is why you need see lawyer in addition to using a mediator. The law on alimony, child support and asset division are straight forward that will murder you.

Another example from past posters experience. California after x years makes alimony permanent, unless the person receiving it remarries or co habitates with a new partner. New York may not be lifetime. So, if she forgets the exception for cohabitating (a real possibility for someone in the fog) she could easily lose several years. If she des move in say nothing, get proof, wait for time period that the law sets, expose.

I could post more but since your WS may be reading your thread I will not.

PS she is checking in when bored, like a vampire to suck up your pain. She is in the fog and hates you. Her joy is nurtured by your pain.


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## LongWalk

The whole tomato soup for mom and the kids is just a line to guilt trip you into giving her the house. She's manipulating her.

If you are going to mediation, why are you bending over to cut her a better deal?

Merely to prevent her from giving vagina a to original OM in your house with the children around?

Ridiculous, she will have sex with whomever she wants. OM doesn't have criminal record.

Stop trying to take care of her to prove that you are her saviour.


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## Chaparral

Your long thread should have been a mirror of this one. Look where he is a year later. http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/237274-help-needed.html


----------



## ThreeStrikes

LongWalk said:


> The whole tomato soup for mom and the kids is just a line to guilt trip you into giving her the house. She's manipulating her.
> 
> If you are going to mediation, why are you bending over to cut her a better deal?
> 
> Merely to prevent her from giving vagina a to original OM in your house with the children around?
> 
> Ridiculous, she will have sex with whomever she wants. OM doesn't have criminal record.
> 
> Stop trying to take care of her to prove that you are her saviour.


Codependency is a b!tch.


----------



## anchorwatch

Grid, are you calming down enough to think without anger? 

Are you sleeping?


BTW, I agree with your counselor's guidance. It supports your best interest without bias towards the outcome of your M.


----------



## lifeistooshort

JohnA said:


> What have you done to position yourself for custody? For example: house sells, her income forces her to move to another town, but with in distance NY state allows. You move to apartment complex in the same school distict your children currently attend. Court will lean towards you for primary custody as it is in best interestnof child to min disruption.
> 
> This is why you need see lawyer in addition to using a mediator. The law on alimony, child support and asset division are straight forward that will murder you.
> 
> Another example from past posters experience. California after x years makes alimony permanent, unless the person receiving it remarries or co habitates with a new partner. New York may not be lifetime. So, if she forgets the exception for cohabitating (a real possibility for someone in the fog) she could easily lose several years. If she des move in say nothing, get proof, wait for time period that the law sets, expose.
> 
> I could post more but since your WS may be reading your thread I will not.
> 
> PS she is checking in when bored, like a vampire to suck up your pain. She is in the fog and hates you. Her joy is nurtured by your pain.




Not necessarily. His wife has been their primary caregiver (unless I'm remembering that incorrectly) and he travels a lot for work. His wife is a perfectly fit parent. 

Unless she gives him custody he's probably not going to get it in court. A judge will let wife and kids stay in the house. 

She's entitled to alimony too, she's just said she won't ask for it. But she's either been home with kids or working part time for 18 years. Another man has nothing to do with any of this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## gridcom

Chaparral said:


> Your long thread should have been a mirror of this one. Look where he is a year later. http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/237274-help-needed.html


ugh.


----------



## gridcom

lifeistooshort said:


> Another man has nothing to do with any of this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Huh?


----------



## gridcom

Found out more last night about what my wife has been up to the last week or so with OM. Nothing huge, but still deception without any guilt. I'm not even going to tell her or call her out on this new info, I'm just going to leave it. Her mind is all twisted up, I cant fix it. 

I took on so much blame because, if I broke it I could fix it! Right? 

And I'm not talking about pre-affair, which no matter what is said here I did mistreat and I did take for granted and all of that. I own it. 

But, post affair, from the minute it was revealed, I have been determined to fix myself and simultaneously determined to fix her, too. And obviously, despite a parade of people here telling me you cant fix her (even by softening her heart with kindness, you can't), I tried.

Since divorce papers were served, we decided to go to MC and set up Retrouvaille on the ONE premise that she have NC with OM. She could not stay true to this. She lied. She'll have to live with it.

I set up mediation for a week from today. I am not going to engage her, although I am determined not to be a d*ck about it, either.

There is happiness out there for me, and I know this. The sooner I can get there, the better.
I can't help but feel bad for my kids, though. We let them down, both of us


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## eric1

Grid you need to think very long and hard about giving her the house. It will SIGNIFICANTLY impact you in the future. Your name ain't coming off of the note and not only is it a foolish credit risk but it can impact you getting a mortgage on another home even if everything stays status quo.

Put it this way, by seperating assets you can low atleast one parent will maintain good credit. If she messes up the house then your kids are screwed if they ever need to leverage your borrowing power.


----------



## anchorwatch

gridcom said:


> Found out more last night about what my wife has been up to the last week or so with OM. Nothing huge, but still deception without any guilt. I'm not even going to tell her or call her out on this new info, I'm just going to leave it. Her mind is all twisted up, I cant fix it.
> 
> I took on so much blame because, if I broke it I could fix it! Right?
> 
> And I'm not talking about pre-affair, which no matter what is said here I did mistreat and I did take for granted and all of that. I own it.
> 
> But, post affair, from the minute it was revealed, I have been determined to fix myself and simultaneously determined to fix her, too. And obviously, despite a parade of people here telling me you cant fix her (even by softening her heart with kindness, you can't), I tried.
> 
> Since divorce papers were served, we decided to go to MC and set up Retrouvaille on the ONE premise that she have NC with OM. She could not stay true to this. She lied. She'll have to live with it.
> 
> I set up mediation for a week from today. I am not going to engage her, although I am determined not to be a d*ck about it, either.
> 
> There is happiness out there for me, and I know this. The sooner I can get there, the better.
> I can't help but feel bad for my kids, though. We let them down, both of us


Better thoughts... Keep moving...

You'll get where you need to be in you own time, Grid

Tell yourself, what ever happens you'll be okay.


----------



## knobcreek

lifeistooshort said:


> Unless she gives him custody he's probably not going to get it in court. A judge will let wife and kids stay in the house.


Based on what grid has described of their combined household debt, it's unlikely a judge would keep the house as she likely can't afford it with just CS and potential alimony. He would likely order it sold so both parents can afford housing, happens all the time now, this isn't 1985. With a good lawyer she would be downgrading her life significantly, as will he.

And Grid check your local laws, lots of times what's decided in a mediation is worthless if one of the parties takes it to court. It would be like the mediation never happened if she wanted to challenge it.


----------



## ButtPunch

ThreeStrikes said:


> Codependency is a b!tch.


I imagine if Grid can get a handle on this his anger issues will vanish.


----------



## gridcom

knobcreek said:


> And Grid check your local laws, lots of times what's decided in a mediation is worthless if one of the parties takes it to court. It would be like the mediation never happened if she wanted to challenge it.


Interesting. You mean, a mediation agreement is signed and approved by the court, but because its a mediation agreement, it can later be challenged?

I'll ask on Monday


----------



## happy as a clam

grid, you're not connecting all the dots here. How is an underemployed woman supposed to remain in a house with low income, no alimony, and only child support to fund the household? It's mathematically impossible. And as others have stated, there is NO way the bank will let you remove your name from the note and leave it in her name only. Unless you agree to keep paying half the mortgage or more (and why in the world would you ever agree to this?), no way she's staying in that house.

And please don't say you're doing it for your girls. They will be perfectly fine with each parent living in a modest, affordable apartment.

Sell the house, pay off your debts, let her fend for herself. That's what she's asking for anyway.

P.S. When push comes to shove, no way a woman who was married for 18 years is going to pass up spousal support. Her lawyer is not going to let her walk away from all that money when they see how truly dismal her financial situation is -- it would be legal malpractice to leave her so strapped for cash -- cash that she is entitled to by law. And the spousal support is going to be HEFTY in New York. 

Find a good realtor and get the house listed ASAP.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happy as a clam

And one more thing. You really need to get up to speed on how divorce ACTUALLY works, and not this La-La-land fairy tale version that you're toying with in your head.

You're in the fight of your life now. You just don't realize it. And you're WAY behind the curve now due to months wasted "playing nice" as suggested by certain posters. And as we see now, THAT has been an epic fail.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## gridcom

happy as a clam said:


> grid, you're not connecting all the dots here. How is an underemployed woman supposed to remain in a house with low income, no alimony, and only child support to fund the household? It's mathematically impossible. And as others have stated, there is NO way the bank will let you remove your name from the note and leave it in her name only. Unless you agree to keep paying half the mortgage or more (and why in the world would you ever agree to this?), no way she's staying in that house.
> 
> And please don't say you're doing it for your girls. They will be perfectly fine with each parent living in a modest, affordable apartment.
> 
> Sell the house, pay off your debts, let her fend for herself. That's what she's asking for anyway.
> 
> P.S. When push comes to shove, no way a woman who was married for 18 years is going to pass up spousal support. Her lawyer is not going to let her walk away from all that money when they see how truly dismal her financial situation is -- it would be legal malpractice to leave her so strapped for cash -- cash that she is entitled to by law. And the spousal support is going to be HEFTY in New York.
> 
> Find a good realtor and get the house listed ASAP.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Married 13 years
And also, again, if she wants alimony then I told her lets skip mediation and go straight for individual lawyers. I'm only cool with mediation under the premise she sticks with her vow of no alimony.
She has stated, verbally of course, that her cheating warrants no alimony. She's a survivor. She'll survive

Happy to sell the house. Or live in it, with or without the kids. Mortgage here is less than $2100. Rents for 2 bedroom apts in this area are $1700 on the low end

Regardless, this is interesting
New York State Legislature Passes Alimony Overhaul - WSJ


----------



## Hicks

You should research the child support formulas and talk to your lawyer about child support.
NY is a "winner take all" child support state. Meaning whoever gets 51% of the physical custody gets 100% of the child support. And the formula for child support is like 29% of your gross income for 3 kids. It's very unfavorable to fathers who can easily wind up getting every other weekend custody and paying 30% of their gross as child support. Yes this means you also pay the income tax on that 30% and she does not.


----------



## gridcom

Hicks said:


> You should research the child support formulas and talk to your lawyer about child support.
> NY is a "winner take all" child support state. Meaning whoever gets 51% of the physical custody gets 100% of the child support. And the formula for child support is like 29% of your gross income for 3 kids. It's very unfavorable to fathers who can easily wind up getting every other weekend custody and paying 30% of their gross as child support. Yes this means you also pay the income tax on that 30% and she does not.


I have 2 kids and I have no problem paying the 25% child support. I'll give to my kids as much as I possible can.

I keep going back to my IC. She's said it like 3 times now, the same way, emphasizing the words as follows"

"John, you two CAN'T AFFORD to divorce"

What can I do? It is what it is. I think we are going to go to first mediation and, I'm quite positive, AT LEAST one of us is walking out of there telling our lawyer to go to war. I'm hoping she'll respond to my offer to move out because I really don't want to be around her right now. She is literally 10 feet from me with a wall between us.

This sucks. I'm going go watch Sopranos (I've been binge watching Sopranos, one episode a day while on the eliptical). Good for the "alpha"


----------



## ButtPunch

Hicks said:


> You should research the child support formulas and talk to your lawyer about child support.
> NY is a "winner take all" child support state. Meaning whoever gets 51% of the physical custody gets 100% of the child support. And the formula for child support is like 29% of your gross income for 3 kids. It's very unfavorable to fathers who can easily wind up getting every other weekend custody and paying 30% of their gross as child support. Yes this means you also pay the income tax on that 30% and she does not.


Ugh!


----------



## knobcreek

gridcom said:


> Interesting. You mean, a mediation agreement is signed and approved by the court, but because its a mediation agreement, it can later be challenged?
> 
> I'll ask on Monday


If your ex decides three months down the line she thinks she got a raw deal in mediation she can challenge it and you may as well wipe your backside with it.


----------



## gridcom

knobcreek said:


> If your ex decides three months down the line she thinks she got a raw deal in mediation she can challenge it and you may as well wipe your backside with it.


If that is the case, I'm not going to even bother with mediation. Because, 3 months after mediation when she is wishing her tomato soup could be used as gas for her car, she will come for more.


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> If that is the case, I'm not going to even bother with mediation. Because, 3 months after mediation when she is wishing her tomato soup could be used as gas for her car, she will come for more.


This is a question for your attorney.


----------



## knobcreek

gridcom said:


> If that is the case, I'm not going to even bother with mediation. Because, 3 months after mediation when she is wishing her tomato soup could be used as gas for her car, she will come for more.


Mediation is really for people who are in fact amicably splitting, meaning both parties want the marriage over, both parties are getting a fair shake, finances are easy to split, and child support arrangements are easy to work out.

With your debt, mortgage, and situation with your wife I wouldn't call this situation easy or amicable. No way would I do mediation, because it's really worthless if she decides she wants to go after your 401K, or now wants alimony five months down the line especially with Mr Barista whispering in her ear.

Definitely talk to your lawyer (I've never met a lawyer that thought mediation was a good idea). I separated from my wife for two years and looked at mediation first, but quickly realized she was being an insanely irrational ***** and decided mediating with someone in that state is a bad idea.


----------



## gridcom

knobcreek said:


> Mediation is really for people who are in fact amicably splitting, meaning both parties want the marriage over, both parties are getting a fair shake, finances are easy to split, and child support arrangements are easy to work out.
> 
> With your debt, mortgage, and situation with your wife I wouldn't call this situation easy or amicable. No way would I do mediation, because it's really worthless if she decides she wants to go after your 401K, or now wants alimony five months down the line especially with Mr Barista whispering in her ear.
> 
> Definitely talk to your lawyer (I've never met a lawyer that thought mediation was a good idea). I separated from my wife for two years and looked at mediation first, but quickly realized she was being an insanely irrational ***** and decided mediating with someone in that state is a bad idea.


I actually dont have a 401k. I had to use it three years ago when I changed from one company to another and the first company withheld a pretty large XMas bonus they never had to pay.

She does, however, have retirement money.

Also, generally, I have no use for lawyers. Not uncommon. But, the idea that a lawyer doesn't like mediation probably mainly has to do with the fact that it's less money going to them. Of course they dont like mediation. Hurts their business

We have little money as it is. The fact that even a single penny of our money has to go to lawyers instead of our kids for jackets, bikes, or whatever makes me sick

I know it's the way it is, but I dont have to like it


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> I actually dont have a 401k. I had to use it three years ago when I changed from one company to another and the first company withheld a pretty large XMas bonus they never had to pay.
> 
> She does, however, have retirement money.


Leverage

1/2 of it's yours


----------



## gridcom

gridcom said:


> We have little money as it is. The fact that even a single penny of our money has to go to lawyers instead of our kids for jackets, bikes, or whatever makes me sick


No, seriously, this bothers me
It's just wrong on every level


----------



## TheTruthHurts

gridcom said:


> gridcom said:
> 
> 
> 
> We have little money as it is. The fact that even a single penny of our money has to go to lawyers instead of our kids for jackets, bikes, or whatever makes me sick
> 
> 
> 
> No, seriously, this bothers me
> It's just wrong on every level
Click to expand...

STOP ACTING LIKE A LITTLE CHILD!!!

"waaaa I don't like lawyers they are money grabbers!"

That is pure and utter foolishness. WTF are you thinking. ITS STOOPID

Your lawyer is going to be YOUR ADVICATE. You pay them to be on your side. They are the only ones on your team. 


Geeesh stop acting like such a fool and hire someone who will PROTECT YOU IN A COURT OF LAW IN A STATE THAT IS BIASED AGAINST MEN!


----------



## knobcreek

gridcom said:


> I actually dont have a 401k. I had to use it three years ago when I changed from one company to another and the first company withheld a pretty large XMas bonus they never had to pay.
> 
> She does, however, have retirement money.
> 
> Also, generally, I have no use for lawyers. Not uncommon. But, the idea that a lawyer doesn't like mediation probably mainly has to do with the fact that it's less money going to them. Of course they dont like mediation. Hurts their business
> 
> We have little money as it is. The fact that even a single penny of our money has to go to lawyers instead of our kids for jackets, bikes, or whatever makes me sick
> 
> I know it's the way it is, but I dont have to like it


Your wife is out to keep the house, full custody of the kids, keep all her retirement money, while you get all the debt and a crap apartment? Solid mediation, she gets everything, you're out of the way for her boyfriend to move in, and her life doesn't change at all, just removed you from the equation.

Lawyers are a fact of life, they don't counsel towards mediation because they know how easy it is to challenge a mediated agreement. I know a lot of lawyers, they wouldn't look at a guy like you as a whale they can land a huge payday from. Believe it or not a lot are honest people looking to counsel their clients for their best interests. Listen to him/her and follow their advice, not your exes, she doesn't have your best interest in mind.

You may need to channel that anger into determination to follow through on this process. You're just defeated and likely depressed. Not a time to hand over everything to your ex in mediation.


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> No, seriously, this bothers me
> It's just wrong on every level


Grid it's all a big game and you better play to win.

Your wife will be.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

OMG I have never read such a long and painful thread by someone who continues live in a fantasy land, making poor decisions, and ignoring good advice based on his gut. 

Dude if I looked at my track record of decisions in an area, and found that all my decisions were wrong and a chorus of people were telling me to do the opposite... What would anyone who has any connection to reality do?

How many posts are there telling you that you will lose everything and you need a good lawyer? Seriously - maybe you should count them. Got to be at least 100 posts. Seriously. And then YOU make the judgement that lawyers are a BAD idea because they want to raise the cost to you. Are you even for real?????


----------



## karole

Nobody likes lawyers - until you need one and buddy, you need one. Get an attorney to hammer out a separation agreement with your wife's attorney.


----------



## TeddieG

gridcom said:


> I actually dont have a 401k. I had to use it three years ago when I changed from one company to another and the first company withheld a pretty large XMas bonus they never had to pay.
> 
> She does, however, have retirement money.
> 
> Also, generally, I have no use for lawyers. Not uncommon. But, the idea that a lawyer doesn't like mediation probably mainly has to do with the fact that it's less money going to them. Of course they dont like mediation. Hurts their business
> 
> We have little money as it is. The fact that even a single penny of our money has to go to lawyers instead of our kids for jackets, bikes, or whatever makes me sick
> 
> I know it's the way it is, but I dont have to like it


Look, Grid, you don't HAVE to go to mediation but you also don't have to show up in court for a judge's ruling and roll the dice. Her lawyer can draft a proposal for a final decree, and your lawyer can consult with you and counter-offer. And the process can go on until everyone is in agreement. That's how my divorce is working, and it's not costing that much. 

My h wanted a quickie online divorce and wanted us to sit down at a computer and fill out a form and have his attorney create filing from it and have it over in three weeks (his OW and her third husband did theirs online and it was granted 3 weeks after filing, so she's coaching him). I said no, I'm seeing a lawyer. He sent me his form and his offer of support and took it to my lawyer, gave her my financial info, and there were three or four things that she wanted to ask my h for that would never have occurred to me. 

So she told me to have h deliver his forms to his lawyer and let them file, and she would await the proposal. His lawyer FINALLY sent it (he was slow), my attorney contacted me and said we need to add these three or four things, and there was also something in the proposed decree I objected to (the separation date). She had to battle with the lawyer for a couple of days to get that changed but everything else went smoothly. 

There are alternatives to mediation, and your lawyer IS your advocate, and knows what the law allows you to ask for and also what your wife is NOT likely to get. And if you let the lawyers do the work, you guys aren't talking about it or arguing about it. 

The stance I took with my h throughout was, I'll ask my lawyer, you ask yours. No need for contact or discussion or emotion. 

It is well worth the money, especially if you really seriously need to detach during the divorce process.


----------



## gridcom

All-

Don't get me wrong, please. I have a lawyer. I'm going.
Doesn't mean it doesn't suck.


----------



## Pluto2

I'm pretty sure NY is favorable to divorce mediation and its a binding agreement. But by all means double check with your attorney.


----------



## LongWalk

Grid,

I hope that you had time to read post 79 of this thread. Chaparral recommended it because Robo's experience mirrors yours in many ways. OM was boss. WW bounced back and forth. Sometimes she loved Robo, sometimes she didn't. Sometimes she aggressively initiated sex, sometimes she said it did nothing for her.

I am still willing to believe that within your WW there is a beautiful person still who would like to lean her head against your shoulder at a concert and jump your bone right after calling the babysitter to check on the kids. But your wife is destroying that person, or what's left of her, and you are complicit.

1) Your goal should be to save self/daughters

2) You should not go to mediation because your economic situation is complicated. Looking for a new place to live and moving is major hassle. Your wife needs to look at the cost for Two Men and Truck, etc. and think that you should be helping her move, only to remember that she fired you.

I am back in Sweden now after a few weeks in the US. The wind is howling. Maybe NY will have white Christmas. Who is going to change the tires on your cars? Are you going volunteer to keep your daughters safe?

3) Your wife's feelings
She feels all sorts of shyte. Bottomline is that she is running away from herself as much as you. Your c*ck blocking of OM – to the extent that it has been successful – has failed. She still wants to take that ride.

Frankly I would just tell her that she need not practice chastity for your sake or some false reconciliation. You are done with her. She can go and sleep with OM or other OM. It's no longer a big deal. Don't make it a discussion. OM is candy to her. Okay let her gorge herself.

4) Get your lawyer to pursue 50/50 custody, splitting all assets, including her pension down the middle.

5) You already know, you'll feel terrible letting her sleep with other men in your house. Don't let her have it.

6) Stop watching TV and start playing the drums.

7) Do the 180. You don't have to be a jerk. Treat her like a colleague or neighbor for whom you have limited trust.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

gridcom said:


> All-
> 
> Don't get me wrong, please. I have a lawyer. I'm going.
> Doesn't mean it doesn't suck.


Like TeddyG said (much nicer than I did) the lawyer is there to protect you and the kids, not screw her. I know tins of lawyers - I live in a town of lawyers, accountants and engineers. I literally can't think of a single one that is unethical. Many are boring, but not necessarily compared to the accountants and engineers


----------



## lifeistooshort

gridcom said:


> Huh?


Sorry, I meant from a legal/custody perspective. 

Not moral or otherwise.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cbnero

I had to skip reading the last 20 posts or so. It was too painful. And I'm talking about grids brain damage here.

Grid, no offense, but you still do not get it. You didn't listen before and no surprise to any of us, here you are. Now, you are not listening again. Why ask for advice if you refuse to follow any of it? You got a problem or something?

1. Quit talking to her.
2. Have your lawyer handle it ALL.
3. Get that freaking house sold or you stay in it if you can afford to refi and buy her out. Do not let your psycho wife stay there. Talk about stupid ideas....
4. Do not go to mediation. Guess what? You can spend all day discussing this with her. She can sign a statement and have it notarized saying she won't request alimony. And when you go to court to finalize it she can say "I've changed my mind, I want alimony." And it is perfectly legal and your signed notarized statement is more useless than a sheet of toilet paper.

You already had discussions and each indicated what you want. So have your lawyer write up the petition that way and sent to her lawyer. 

PUSH THIS THROUGH ASAP WHILE SHE MIGHT STILL FEEL GUILTY!!!

You can always remarry her later 

Good Lord grid you need to get a clue and some balls.


----------



## jld

Of course you can't afford to divorce. That is partly why your IC is giving you the kind of advice she is, to basically wait out the affair. Your wife is going to come to her senses sooner or later.

You are putting your emotions before your good sense, even knowing that your kids will pay for it in every way. And you still have thoughts of trying to control your wife!

I think it is hopeful that your IC has not given up. She is the one with professional experience. Not sure why you are not following her advice.


----------



## gridcom

LongWalk said:


> Grid,
> 
> I hope that you had time to read post 79 of this thread. Chaparral recommended it because Robo's experience mirrors yours in many ways. OM was boss. WW bounced back and forth. Sometimes she loved Robo, sometimes she didn't. Sometimes she aggressively initiated sex, sometimes she said did nothing for her.
> 
> I am still willing to believe that within your WW there is a beautiful person still who would like to lean her head against your shoulder at a concert and jump your bone right after calling the babysitter to check on the kids. But your wife is destroying that person, or what's left of her, and you are complicit.
> 
> 1) Your goal should be to save self/daughters
> 
> 2) You should not go to mediation because your economic situation is complicated. Looking for a new place to live and moving is major hassle. Your wife needs to look at the cost for Two Men and Truck, etc. and think that you should be helping her move, only to remember that she fired you.
> 
> I am back in Sweden now after a few weeks in the US. The wind is howling. Maybe NY will have white Christmas. Who is going to change the tires on your cars? Are you going volunteer to keep your daughters safe?
> 
> 3) Your wife's feelings
> She feels all sorts of shyte. Bottomline is that she is running away from herself as much as you. Your c*ck blocking of OM – to the extent that it has been successful – has failed. She still wants to take that ride.
> 
> Frankly I would just tell her that she need not practice chastity for your sake or some false reconciliation. You are done with her. She can go and sleep with OM or other OM. It's no longer a big deal. Don't make it a discussion. OM is candy to her. Okay let her gorge herself.
> 
> 4) Get your lawyer to pursue 50/50 custody, splitting all assets, including her pension down the middle.
> 
> 5) You already know, you'll feel terrible letting her sleep with other men in your house. Don't let her have it.
> 
> 6) Stop watching TV and start playing the drums.
> 
> 7) Do the 180. You don't have to be a jerk. Treat her like a colleague or neighbor for whom you have limited trust.


Longwalk, if you dont know already, you are excellent with this stuff. 
I was reading Butt Punch's thread and noticed that back then , you were kind of new here and your writing wasn't as good. Not to say it was bad, but you could tell you were feeling your way around a bit. You really have a grasp on some very innate, nuanced things when you write.

Thanks for being on this thread this whole time.

Ok all, I really have to crush the sh*t out of work today, so I'll be back when something happens. I am out for now.


----------



## bandit.45

jld said:


> Your wife is going to come to her senses sooner or later.


And you know this how?


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Ask your lawyer how long the D process takes in your State/county.

Are you looking at a year-long process?


----------



## Pluto2

jld said:


> Of course you can't afford to divorce. That is partly why your IC is giving you the kind of advice she is, to basically wait out the affair. Your wife is going to come to her senses sooner or later.
> 
> You are putting your emotions before your good sense, even knowing that your kids will pay for it in every way. And you still have thoughts of trying to control your wife!
> 
> I think it is hopeful that your IC has not given up. She is the one with professional experience. Not sure why you are not following her advice.


Talk about wishful thinking, jld.

She has shown NO indication of wanting to keep this marriage. In fact, during the time when she told Grid she was committed to the process, guess what MORE LIES and all about the OM. I know want this to work out. I want to win the lottery. The saving the marriage ship has sailed and it took off months ago.

The statement "you can't afford to divorce" applies to most people who go through a divorce and it means you can't afford to maintain your current standard of living and divorce.


----------



## gridcom

jld said:


> Of course you can't afford to divorce. That is partly why your IC is giving you the kind of advice she is, to basically wait out the affair. Your wife is going to come to her senses sooner or later.
> 
> You are putting your emotions before your good sense, even knowing that your kids will pay for it in every way. And you still have thoughts of trying to control your wife!
> 
> I think it is hopeful that your IC has not given up. She is the one with professional experience. Not sure why you are not following her advice.


JLD, I dont want to ignore you. i do think you have a very kind heart. You're likely an extremely kind person in real life. And you're right that this is an emotional time and acting on emotions may be a mistake in SOME ways

however, the bottom line is simply that my wife and I did have an agreement. We would work towards reconciliation, at her pace. I would back off, go to MC, IC, XTC, AC/DC, etc etc and she would simply have NC with OM. 

When she broke it, she broke a boundary that I set and once that happens, you don't just move your boundaries. Even you know that. 

If she quit her job tomorrow, I would take that as a sign that she has at least is understanding that what she did was wrong. But, she's not quitting her job tomorrow or any time soon, so that is simply that. There is no place in my life for working with a woman who disrespects me by stepping out with other men.

I've made my decision.


----------



## Nucking Futs

jld said:


> Of course you can't afford to divorce. That is partly why your IC is giving you the kind of advice she is, to basically wait out the affair. Your wife is going to come to her senses sooner or later.
> 
> You are putting your emotions before your good sense, even knowing that your kids will pay for it in every way. And you still have thoughts of trying to control your wife!
> 
> I think it is hopeful that your IC has not given up. She is the one with professional experience. Not sure why you are not following her advice.


Probably because her advice, much like yours, is not only wrong for Grid and his situation, but harmful.


----------



## jld

Nothing harmful about anything I have said. It falls right in line with his IC, which is the advice I suggested he follow.

Grid, you are putting yourself first while seeming to say you want to put the girls first. Just own that, please.

Rose tried to give you some MB advice. Dr. Harley says most affairs burn out in two years or less. I think you could have worked on yourself and just waited for her to come to her senses. You would not have had to set a limit. Heck, that gave her the power. She crossed a line and you reacted. Her actions determine yours, instead of yours being independently motivated.

I would give my own sons the same advice I gave you here, grid. It would be the best I could do for my grandkids. And would only cost my sons some pride.

But if you are determined to divorce, I would sell the house and follow the divorce laws, likely a 50/50 split. And not try to control her beyond that. You have lost your influence.


----------



## gridcom

jld said:


> Nothing harmful about anything I have said. It falls right in line with his IC, which is the advice I suggested he follow.
> 
> Grid, you are putting yourself first while seeming to say you want to put the girls first. Just own that, please.
> 
> Rose tried to give you some MB advice. Dr. Harley says most affairs burn out in two years or less. I think you could have worked on yourself and just waited for her to come to her senses. You would not have had to set a limit. Heck, that gave her the power. She crossed a line and you reacted. Her actions determine yours, instead of yours being independently motivated.
> 
> I would give my own sons the same advice I gave you here, grid. It would be the best I could do for my grandkids. And would only cost my sons some pride.
> 
> But if you are determined to divorce, I would sell the house and follow the divorce laws, likely a 50/50 split. And not try to control her beyond that. You have lost your influence.


Respectfully, I am not going to attempt to fix my marriage while my wife is carrying on with another man. I will work on me. The whole being kind to her, etc doesnt work when she is seeing another man.
I have to disagree with you there. 

If she didnt break NC, I wouldnt have even come back to this thread after a month away until something significant happened. I came back because her breaking NC was significant. My actions are independently motivated. I am independently motivated to not take that crap. I was happy to work with her and be gentle and understanding and do more than my share of fixing our issues, but that is absolutely not in the spectrum of possibilities as long as she is carrying on with the OM.

Thank you, though. I know you are only trying to help and unlike others here, I do think you have good intentions


----------



## cbnero

This is the best post you have made, ever. Congrats.

Keep moving forward and making progress.


----------



## ButtPunch

Good Grief....talk about the Captain going down with the ship. 

Completely missed the point and too proud to even admit it. Everyone was right and I was wrong. Where's your HUMILITY? Ohhh at the irony.

Grid I would sue her for six months of your life back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pluto2

Forcing his children to live in a toxic household where Mom and Dad can't stand each other and no love remains is not in the best interest of the children.

And jld, I doubt you would give this advice to your daughter.


----------



## ButtPunch

She is pushing her agenda and not concerned about the OP. She has no idea what the OP is going thru. She has no idea the impact of infidelity. None. 

She treats it like not putting the cap back on the milk carton.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

Grid's wife has decided that her sense of self esteem and self worth (which she obtains from her job and from the attention of other men) are more valuable to her than marriage and family. So, Grid must make a decision now as to what is most valuable to him. I think he is being honest when he says he places his daughters' love and his own self worth at the top of his list. 

I can see Grid's heart starting to harden against his wife. It is natural and reasonable to expect this, given her lack of contrition.


----------



## happy as a clam

gridcom said:


> I was reading Butt Punch's thread and noticed that back then , you were kind of new here and your writing wasn't as good.


Are you, in fact, referring to *Gut*Punch's thread? You keep mentioning Butt Punch, but I don't think that's the same user or thread you are referring to.

Please correct me if I am wrong.


----------



## plomito

As probably others have said before me, she is definitely in a fog right now. The reason I can say this is because I been there once and everything looks so good and promising inside there, that you don't want to look outside of it, neither listen to nobody else. However, the real problem she will face is when you move on with your life (which you should) and she start facing reality. Is this new found love will be able to fill your shoes, highly doubt it. Everything at the beginning is wonderful and feels great, but once you are out of the picture and now this guy have to deal with her 24/7 things will start to change. 

Give yourself some time, and start working on moving on. It will hurt for a while but time will help you heal. Best of luck


----------



## ButtPunch

happy as a clam said:


> Are you, in fact, referring to *Gut*Punch's thread? You keep mentioning Butt Punch, but I don't think that's the same user or thread you are referring to.
> 
> Please correct me if I am wrong.


I think he is referring to Gutpunch and not me.

What a legend.....That Gutpunch.


----------



## MRR

Sounds harsh but one of the realities you will have to find a way to come to grips with is that once you split, you cannot dictate how she lives, or who she sees, or for the most part, who she brings around the kids unless their health and safety are in jeopardy.

*****************

This is huge. Not only do you need to move on from her/marriage now, you will NEVER be the best version of yourself if you continue to try to control her on the premise that they are your kids; if she is a poor parent, your kids will figure it out and you just have to be a great parent for them. You CANNOT dwell or harp on her lifestyle and choices-- you would not want her doing that to you.


----------



## just got it 55

ButtPunch said:


> I think he is referring to Gutpunch and not me.
> 
> What a legend.....That Gutpunch.


Grid Mrs. Gutpunch is still active PM her maybe she can help you put this al behind you I don't know how but maybe someone here can Tag her into this thread

55


----------



## cbnero

bandit.45 said:


> Grid's wife has decided that her sense of self esteem and self worth (which she obtains from her job and from the attention of other men) are more valuable to her than marriage and family. So, Grid must make a decision now as to what is most valuable to him. I think he is being honest when he says he places his daughters' love and his own self worth at the top of his list.
> 
> I can see Grid's heart starting to harden against his wife. It is natural and reasonable to expect this, given her lack of contrition.


Agreed. I was concerned he still wasn't validating his own feelings to get to 50k. But he sounds so much better than a month ago. 

Grid, sorry if I was harsh. I was in your shoes. Sometimes I needed a couple friends that would provoke me a bit if I started triggering or feeling down. I'll tone that down, seems like you found a good understanding of the situation.

Forget her. Pedal to the metal on the divorce. Tell your attorney to push it asap!


----------



## gridcom

plomito said:


> As probably others have said before me, she is definitely in a fog right now. The reason I can say this is because I been there once and everything looks so good and promising inside there, that you don't want to look outside of it, neither listen to nobody else. However, the real problem she will face is when you move on with your life (which you should) and she start facing reality. Is this new found love will be able to fill your shoes, highly doubt it. Everything at the beginning is wonderful and feels great, but once you are out of the picture and now this guy have to deal with her 24/7 things will start to change.
> 
> Give yourself some time, and start working on moving on. It will hurt for a while but time will help you heal. Best of luck


right on...


----------



## cbnero

Grid here is some of my experience, which was very similar situation to yours.

When I reached the point where I knew in my heart I was done, it was frightening. My attorney understood this. But she made the case that if my wife couldn't think and act rational now, it was even more unlikely she would do so going forward. 

If I had separated vs divorced, my wife would have carried on her illicit behavior but I would still be financially linked to her insanity. Give or take a few thousand dollars, I got an amazing settlement. If we separated and I didn't push the D, and my wife's life started crumbling or she became more angry in blaming me, it is highly unlikely she would agree to favorable terms 6 months later. My lawyer was 100% correct in that prediction.

Do you see your wife's emotional and financial situation improving over the next year? I dont. 

She may have lingering guilt that you don't see. Use that to get your divorce pushed through immediately. Be cool and calm and get your lawyer to get agreeable terms now, while you still can. There is nothing to gain by waiting. It will still take a bit since the kids are involved. It's important to keep calm and not engage her at all. 

It's just business right now. Please be smart and get moving. The clock is ticking.

Good luck


----------



## just got it 55

cbnero said:


> Agreed. I was concerned he still wasn't validating his own feelings to get to 50k. But he sounds so much better than a month ago.
> 
> Grid, sorry if I was harsh. I was in your shoes. Sometimes I needed a couple friends that would provoke me a bit if I started triggering or feeling down. I'll tone that down, seems like you found a good understanding of the situation.
> 
> Forget her. Pedal to the metal on the divorce. Tell your attorney to push it asap!


Abso fvcking luttly

Just show her how fast you can move on once you knew the lies and betrayal led you there

From here on out............

Clear and present indifference and detachment

Put new meaning to the 180

55


----------



## TeddieG

Grid, another reason to move on with the divorce and see it as business, separating it from the emotional aspect of your relationship with your w or sbtxw, is to preserve the financial situation as best you can. On a midlife crisis board that I used to frequent, left-behind spouses were urged not to pursue divorce but when the time came that the wandering midlife spouse filed, the advice was to get a good lawyer, let the lawyer(s) handle things, and not to give in and be too nice. There were some who did and their situation was awful, but for those whose spouses came back, the returning spouse was grateful that the left-behind acted not out of emotion but acted to preserve as much financial stability as possible. Using MLC parameters, I would say that if you can get a favorable settlement, you can preserve more of the status quo for your daughters than if you play nice with wifey. Also, as my divorce started, and I wanted to pay off h's medical bills before the divorce, my friends and advisors on the forum said that everything I do to ease h's financial responsibilities, even IF it means I have no worries about our joint debt before the divorce is final, means that I'm helping the OW. 

Instead of seeing this divorce as something that is debilitating, see it as something that makes it possible for you to preserve as much as you can for your daughters, and let wifey and the POSOM deal with their financial reality and fallout, not to mention preserving your ability to have money for your kids after child support and possible alimony goes out. Divorce is often a tug of war over issues that are emotional (in my case, I demanded that he acknowledge an appropriate separation date, but the rest was financial), and that can cloud the financial issues, which should be the primary focus. 

It's hard to get that view when you're still reeling from all your attempts to work things out, but I hear in your posts a real clear commitment to accepting the realities as they are, and I think her breaking of NC has propelled you to anger. It took my h texting OW on the back porch of my brother's house the day we buried my mother for me to REALLY see how much in a fog he is . . . seven years later.


----------



## Nucking Futs

jld said:


> Nothing harmful about anything I have said. It falls right in line with his IC, which is the advice I suggested he follow.


Whether your advice (and this therapist that you unconditionally trust because she agrees with you) is harmful depends on what your main concern is. Your advice is not harmful to the marriage, and could conceivably result in the marriage being saved.

It is, on the other hand, very harmful to Grid. Grid is not his marriage, he is an actual human being with thoughts and feelings of his own, and sacrificing him on the altar of saving the marriage at any cost is what I'm referring to when I say you, and your favorite therapist, are giving harmful advice.

Grids WW is actively working to undermine him and take as much from him as possible. She started an affair, filed for divorce, lied about no contact and continued the affair while attending retrouville and any other counseling they might have done, and manipulated him to display anger that she can use against him in court. Your advice will do actual harm to Grid in these circumstances. He must lawyer up and protect himself and his relationship with his kids or she will take everything away from him.


----------



## gridcom

TeddieG said:


> I think her breaking of NC has propelled you to anger.


Yes, I have been propelled 
Definitely


----------



## LongWalk

happy as a clam said:


> Are you, in fact, referring to *Gut*Punch's thread? You keep mentioning Butt Punch, but I don't think that's the same user or thread you are referring to.
> 
> Please correct me if I am wrong.


I recommended GutPunch's thread to JLD. She said the length was intimidating. But there was a reason for that. GP's WW had to struggle with addiction. The affair she had was a symptom of her FOO's issues, which caused her to feel empty inside. She turned first to opiates and second to an OM. The only way GP could reach her was to take away the cake.

Once the consequences of the self destructive behavior were disconnected from GP, she could see that reconciliation and health were up to her. Getting healthy took time. You can't just quit any addiction without insight and self discipline.

Gridcom's wife has not faced her own demons. But she will destroy Grid in the failing co-dependent relationship. When she broke NC with OM she was hurting Grid. She knew that. She will hurt him as long as he allows it.

Grid, you now see JLD realistically. That is a good thing.

Grid is not mad at JLD for misguiding him. He allowed her bad advice to block out the good advice. But the responsibility for that lies with Grid, not JLD.

Also, Grid is right JLD is nice person who means well. Also, JLD is not entirely wrong. If Grid simply sucked it up and let his wife and OM rock for a year or two, she might get tired of him and reconnect with Grid. What JLD doesn't get is that being a cuckold is soul destroying for most men. Sure, a really cool guy might tell his wayward wife to enjoy her boyfriend and that he would start seeing other women and they would share the secrets of their extra marital love lives and support each other. They would tell enlightened people about the beauty of polyamory.

Imagine:

OM has to work an extra shift at Starbucks and Mrs Grid can't see him for three hours. Grid says:



> "Babe, don't feel down come over and let me hold you while we watch a movie. Once he gets off work you can drive over. Don't worry, I'll get up in the morning and take the girls to the pool. You can come back in the early afternoon and make dinner for us."


Grid is screwing the 27-year-old secretary of one of his clients who now fears she is falling in love with Grid and hates sex with condoms. Mrs Grid says:



> "She such a sweet girl. If you go for it, you have to promise to be a good dad, which I know you can be. Our girls would be thrilled to have a baby sister."


Some people just aren't cut out for polyamory even if People magazine, Psychology Today and the late night shows approve.


----------



## gridcom

LongWalk said:


> I recommended GutPunch's thread to JLD. She said the length was intimidating. But there was a reason for that. GP's WW had to struggle with addiction. The affair she had was a symptom of her FOO's issues, which caused her to feel empty inside. She turned first to opiates and second to an OM. The only way GP could reach her was to take away the cake.
> 
> Once the consequences of the self destructive behavior were disconnected from GP, she could see that reconciliation and health were up to her. Getting healthy took time. You can't just quit any addiction without insight and self discipline.
> 
> Gridcom's wife has not faced her own demons. But she will destroy Grid in the failing co-dependent relationship. When she broke NC with OM she was hurting Grid. She knew that. She will hurt him as long as he allows it.
> 
> Grid, you now see JLD realistically. That is a good thing.
> 
> Grid is not mad at JLD for misguiding him. He allowed her bad advice to block out the good advice. But the responsibility for that lies with Grid, not JLD.
> 
> Also, Grid is right JLD is nice person who means well. Also, JLD is not entirely wrong. If Grid simply sucked it up and let his wife and OM rock for a year or two, she might get tired of him and reconnect with Grid. What JLD doesn't get is that being a cuckold is soul destroying for most men. Sure, a really cool guy might tell his wayward wife to enjoy her boyfriend and that he would start seeing other women and they would share the secrets of their extra marital love lives and support each other. They would tell enlightened people about the beauty of polyamory.
> 
> Imagine:
> 
> OM has to work an extra shift at Starbucks and Mrs Grid can't see him for three hours. Grid says:
> 
> 
> 
> Grid is screwing the 27-year-old secretary of one of his clients who now fears she is falling in love with Grid and hates sex with condoms. Mrs Grid says:
> 
> 
> 
> Some people just aren't cut out for polyamory even if People magazine, Psychology Today and the late night shows approve.


God, Polyamory sounds absolutely gross. It's gross on top of gross. It's for shallow people with no soul's

I actually don't think JLD gave "bad" advice, at all. However, I think she gave that advice hoping that my wife would do her part, and carry her part of the load, which was NO CONTACT.

But, she didn't hold up her end, and thus JLD's approach failed.


----------



## Observer

Grid, I have been away from here for a while now, I was in fact in the exact same situation as you, and you sound so much like me. I was divorced 2 years ago. I too neglected my wife and I too was both emotionally and at times, physically abusive. To be honest, we both were, our marriage had a lot of ups and downs over 20 years. We hit rock bottom though and I saw the light. I wanted to be a better man, a better husband, and better father. Unfortunately, it was too late, she had hardened. For her, I could never change and she had an affair. The difference between us is that I never caught her. She would lie, deceive, turn things around on me, berate me, etc. She was like a different person and treated me like a stranger. I went through 2 years of hell, pure hell. I finally had enough, was convinced she was cheating and divorced. I loved this woman more than life itself, to this day I still do. I have beaten myself up to no end about how I could be like I was to someone that means that much to me. It really makes you question yourself as a human being.

I have made some serious mistakes in other relationships since I filed. The mistakes, while awful, are not the issue. What is important is I made them for selfish reasons and in a state of mental instability. I thought very sincerely that my actions were right, I was doing things for the right reasons and they were going to make me and the other person happy. I never healed Grid, I just acted. I am exhibit A of what not to do. I placed all my hurt in a box in my mind and stored it there.

I remarried last March to a wonderful woman. We have everything in common, never argue, and she is great. I was convinced I was over the emotional trauma from my marriage, absolutely convinced. Soon after she moves in that box in my mind started to leak, and that hurt became to seep back in. I questioned if I did the right thing leaving the mother of my kids? I questioned a million things and I have been dealing with it since. Fortunately, the woman I am married to is so understanding and can emphasize. 

My ex has been hinting around that she may regret things and potential to be together again. Of course this caused me to go through emotional turmoil and I fancied the idea of having my family back. And yes, I mean family, because that was my family. Half my life and 2 children, that was what I did and still do (which I know needs to change) consider my family. About 10 days an opportunity presented itself while I was getting something for my son to take to his school. I was in her house, grabbing the shorts, and I saw her IPAD I bought as a present. I looked in it and was shocked there was no passcode on it, she always had a passcode. It was wrong but I did it, I looked at texts and email and found what I was looking for. I lost it, completely lost it, crushed beyond comprehension. She is still with him and he finally separated from his wife. She still hides everything, they still meet in hotels and what not. Even when I confronted her she still lies, blames me, etc. They both are still in an affair fog and they have been in it for 4 years. 

The point is this, take time to heal. Getting into a relationship now will help as a distraction but long term it will be a problem. Don't box away the hurt and pain, deal with it. 

And we both have to accept this: The things that led to the women we love hardening towards us are on us. We failed them. The affair is on them: they failed themselves. One could say that one event led to the other, and that has some merit. Regardless, it is what it is. I know my behavior and actions have been self-absorbed and I want to be better. I am very sorry for hurting my ex so much and I take responsibility for it. It pains me that she has to live with such bad memories. The best thing I can do for her is to stay out of her life and hope she can find peace and happiness. The best thing I can do for myself is appreciate the woman I have now and stop doing destructive things that will put me in the same place I just left.

Good luck, take time to heal and reflect
.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

gridcom said:


> Thank you, though. I know you are only trying to help and unlike others here, I do think you have good intentions


I hope you accidentally wrote the wrong thing, because if you think all these posts - specifically looking out for you - aren't made with good intentions then I can't imagine what's going through your head.


----------



## Pluto2

I think Grid was being gracious to jld, not slamming anyone else.


----------



## bfree

gridcom said:


> God, Polyamory sounds absolutely gross. It's gross on top of gross. It's for shallow people with no soul's
> 
> I actually don't think JLD gave "bad" advice, at all. However, I think she gave that advice hoping that my wife would do her part, and carry her part of the load, which was NO CONTACT.
> 
> But, she didn't hold up her end, and thus JLD's approach failed.


Grid, you did everything humanly possible. You had one simple request and she couldn't even do that. You had a boundary and she was aware of the consequences of breaking that boundary. We all have boundaries that we hold fast to. Jld has talked about her boundaries as it pertains to Dug. If you didn't have boundaries you wouldn't be much of a husband...or a man.


----------



## MRR

TheTruthHurts said:


> I hope you accidentally wrote the wrong thing, because if you think all these posts - specifically looking out for you - aren't made with good intentions then I can't imagine what's going through your head.


Agreed. I am completely offended if Grid thinks I am posting here with the wrong intentions. 

Not only is my advice the right advice (compared to JLD's 'good inentioned' advice) it is being relived on here FOR GRID because I have been with a woman like his wife, and then studied what happened and why it happened, and how i finally got past it.


----------



## jld

I did my best for you, grid. I don't know what more I could have done. I hung in there just out of faith, hope, and love. And I know you know that.

I really wish you would ask your wife to see your counselor one time, as she requested. That could give her valuable insight on how to advise you going forward.


----------



## gridcom

There is nobody that has posted on this thread with bad intentions. Not JLD or anyone else. If anyone thinks JLD posted here with anything but the best intentions, we have to respectfully disagree. And thats not to say then in turn YOUR intentions WERE bad because her's were good.

I think JLD means well, and I think her approach might have worked if my wife wasn't so weak about this whole thing, and addicted.


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## gridcom

jld said:


> I did my best for you, grid. I don't know what more I could have done. I hung in there just out of faith, hope, and love. And I know you know that.
> 
> I really wish you would ask your wife to see your counselor one time, as she requested. That could give her valuable insight on how to advise you going forward.


I told her my IC wanted to see her. What she does with that is up to her.


----------



## turnera

gridcom said:


> Sucks. I'm not angry today, or sad. It happened on Monday and here we are Thursday and I've accepted the new course. It took a few days. I came back here and brought you all back into my life. After much thought, I decided last night that I am going to live close to my kids. I'm not going to live right here in town, but 10-15 minutes away. I was very much toying with the idea of living in Queens , where I have friends and family, but I want to see my kids every single day if I can. i know that it's not always going to be possible. Hell, I live with them and sometimes I dont see them every single day anyway. But, I want them to know that I am close. That I am still kind of part of their community.


grid, this is what makes you a great guy. It's your job right now to help them become loved, confident, accomplished people. And that comes by them knowing without a shadow of a doubt that THEY are your main focus. They'll be fine. And trust me, money doesn't make them feel loved. Time and attention does.


----------



## Chaparral

gridcom said:


> God, Polyamory sounds absolutely gross. It's gross on top of gross. It's for shallow people with no soul's
> 
> I actually don't think JLD gave "bad" advice, at all. However, I think she gave that advice hoping that my wife would do her part, and carry her part of the load, which was NO CONTACT.
> 
> But, she didn't hold up her end, and thus JLD's approach failed.


I can't stand it. You can't see what this advice has done to you. You were repeatedly told there had to be no contact. Contact never ended. You were told by inexperienced posters to work on this and that that your wife wasn't really at fault blah blah blah.

Your wife can't apologize to you about anything. That's because she never does anything wrong. She rationalizes being a cougar with kids, a MILF to an idiot working at a coffee shop, destroying your kids family and being a total b!tch to you, coming home after having sex with a loser, bragging about it and running your nose in it.

You paid attention to the worst advice ever in an infidelity situation here . You are totally blind to reality. If you don't get a grip your kids are gone.

My uncle gave his wife the farm hoping she would see what a great guy he was. She took her affair partners farm too.......while he was on his death bed from cancer leaving his kids with nothing. You're toast.


----------



## Keepin-my-head-up

Your counselor said the 2 of you can't afford divorce?

I hope she meant emotionally because like you said, what can you do?
That is a financial question.
Sure she means we'll tho.

As far as mediation, most times it is legally binding.
I'm sure she could take you to court if she was unhappy a few months down the line but it could also be true if you guys went to court and a few months later she was unhappy with those results.
If you got the money, a lawyer will take the case.
Doesn't mean she will win.
Ask your lawyer if it is legally binding in your state for sure.


----------



## turnera

TeddieG said:


> Look, Grid, you don't HAVE to go to mediation but you also don't have to show up in court for a judge's ruling and roll the dice. Her lawyer can draft a proposal for a final decree, and your lawyer can consult with you and counter-offer. And the process can go on until everyone is in agreement. That's how my divorce is working, and it's not costing that much.


My ex-SIL said she just wanted to walk away from her marriage to my brother with what she brought in. So he stayed away from lawyers. Until the day 6 months later when her lawyer contacted him and said he had ONE day to respond to some shenanigans she had come up with or else he would lose hundreds of thousands of dollars in equity and money. I didn't ask for the details, so I can't tell you what it was, but he literally had to leave work and go find an attorney so he could respond before 5pm or lose it all. This from a woman who I thought was one of the nicest, most amazing women I'd ever met.

Pay the damn lawyer. At least for one hour's worth of perusal over the details so you know your rights.


----------



## ButtPunch

Good Lord Peeps

He has two Lawyers already


----------



## TeddieG

ButtPunch said:


> Good Lord Peeps
> 
> He has two Lawyers already


I know, BP, but part of the reason I was suggesting that the process start is because it seemed the trend of the conversation here was either go to mediation or google this, google that, and try to anticipate what the outcome will be. 

There's a third way . . . letting the lawyers work it out, and that may take some time, but it also provides a cooling-off period. 

And I also meant to say that for me, at one level, the hardest part has been that process, waiting for one slow lawyer to send a proposal to another lawyer (mine), who is working hard on my behalf but has to send emails or meet with h's lawyer and discuss and communicate. I didn't want the divorce, but when he decided he wanted it, I decided I did too, but while he wanted it over FAST I wanted it over when I was sure my options were reviewed and protected. When we reached agreement, I was happy to sign the form and await the judge's approval. The protracted nature of it has been difficult but I've signed the final decree and it is up to h and his lawyer to take it to court. My divorce will probably be done by Christmas. 

It took longer but I didn't have to deal with h AT ALL, and that was WONDERFUL, worth EVERY penny I paid my lawyer.


----------



## Evinrude58

I do see that Grid is not in the frame of mind that he needs to be in so that he will not get screwed. Even though he has a lawyer, his writing does not show a full understanding of how badly he is about to get the shaft.
Grid, any discussion you have with your wife about what she is going to ask for in the divorce is ABSOLUTELY pointless. It doesn't amount to anything. If she can get alimony, she is darned well going to. Her lawyer will make sure of it. SHe will get all the goodies, and you will get all the debt--- unless you get yourself a darned good lawyer. I am worried about you. I don't think it's fair that you are going to get the shaft so that you can't pay bills on a modest apartment and food and clothing for yourself after your wife has an affair and decides she doesn't want to be married anymore. It took two to decide to get married. SHE is holding all the cards in the divorce.
BUT, you have to FORGET FAIR. You are in a major bind here whether you know it or not.

I think you see that staying married to her is an exercise in futility. NO real man can sit by and let his wife screw another man for a year or two and wait for her to come back. As stated, you would be an empty shell of a man after witnessing this play out. No soul or dignity left. Only a person who has never experienced infidelity could suggest such a thing. Sure, she'll likely come back, but who would give a **** at that point.

You are headed in the right direction. Get all the help you can get. Lawyers get lots of money for this crap. I paid it. Everyone else has. I'm thankful for my lawyer!!!! And all he did was print some papers and sign his name to it, along with getting this stuff taken care of in court. We know how you feel.

As far as JLD's advice, heck we all wanted you to be able to keep your marriage. I know firsthand the agony you are going through because you want your family back. It was gone when she told you she no longer loved you and gave herself to another man. You are not choosing to divorce her, you are being forced to. Remember that. It's obvious you would have moved mountains for this woman to keep her happy.

The advice you were given to quit talking to her, and go ahead and divorce is good advice. 

You are in dangerous territory as far as your future is concerned. I hope you protect yourself with a GOOD lawyer. I'm glad you are deciding it's time to start living with one another as well. Just make it happen, while following good legal advice.


----------



## turnera

ButtPunch said:


> Good Lord Peeps
> 
> He has two Lawyers already


He says that but at the same time says he doesn't want to USE them. Meaning, he's hoping to be able to go along with whatever the mediator comes up with so he doesn't give the lawyers a dime.


----------



## TeddieG

turnera said:


> He says that but at the same time says he doesn't want to USE them. Meaning, he's hoping to be able to go along with whatever the mediator comes up with so he doesn't give the lawyers a dime.


Right! The time to be economical is NOT when your financial future is up for grabs.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

TeddieG said:


> Right! The time to be economical is NOT when your financial future is up for grabs.


You getting kick backs there Teddie?

Most people are smart enough to say don't go to lawyers or you wont have a financial future - who do you think pays for the nice suit, fancy offices, overseas trips, and expensive cars? The client !

And one of my old bosses had split up with his wife, and he would get to the precipice, and since things weren't going his way he would fire his lawyer and start again. He figured if he wasn't getting the marriage assets, she wasn't going to get them either. (yeah, _real_ nasty piece of passive aggressive work that guy)


----------



## Evinrude58

spotthedeaddog said:


> You getting kick backs there Teddie?
> 
> *Most people are smart enough to say don't go to lawyers or you wont have a financial future - who do you think pays for the nice suit, fancy offices, overseas trips, and expensive cars? The client !*
> 
> And one of my old bosses had split up with his wife, and he would get to the precipice, and since things weren't going his way he would fire his lawyer and start again. He figured if he wasn't getting the marriage assets, she wasn't going to get them either. (yeah, _real_ nasty piece of passive aggressive work that guy)


Are you saying don't go to a lawyer? SHE FILED AND SHE HAS ONE ALREADY. He has no choice but to get his own and take care of himself.

I don't understand this post.


----------



## Ms. GP

The alanon program has a saying that I think applies well here. "Give people the dignity to fail" Any one looking from the outside in can tell that Mrs. Grid is on a destructive course here. But, it seems she is determined to stubbornly follow her course to the bitter end. You mentioned her stubbornness earlier, and her actions seem to mirror that.

Fwiw, my best friend is in the process of leaving her husband for her AP and it kills me to watch it. Especially, since I almost went down that path myself. I know firsthand, the pain headed her way. Her son who is only five doesn't want anything to do with her. It's heartbreaking!! Right now, she acts like a completely different person and there is no reasoning with her. There is no way she is in a healthy relationship with her AP. Healthy people don't hit on married people!!! I have no idea what's going to happen in her situation or with our friendship. I have a feeling her AP wants to alienate her from me and her family. So for now, as much as it kills me I keep my mouth shut and pray for the best. I can't fix her.

I pray for you too Grid. I hope you find the spiritual partnership you deserve. I don't think you were put here to be miserable.


----------



## gridcom

Ms. GP said:


> The alanon program has a saying that I think applies well here. "Give people the dignity to fail" Any one looking from the outside in can tell that Mrs. Grid is on a destructive course here. But, it seems she is determined to stubbornly follow her course to the bitter end. You mentioned her stubbornness earlier, and her actions seem to mirror that.
> 
> Fwiw, my best friend is in the process of leaving her husband for her AP and it kills me to watch it. Especially, since I almost went down that path myself. I know firsthand, the pain headed her way. Her son who is only five doesn't want anything to do with her. It's heartbreaking!! Right now, she acts like a completely different person and there is no reasoning with her. There is no way she is in a healthy relationship with her AP. Healthy people don't hit on married people!!! I have no idea what's going to happen in her situation or with our friendship. I have a feeling her AP wants to alienate her from me and her family. So for now, as much as it kills me I keep my mouth shut and pray for the best. I can't fix her.
> 
> I pray for you too Grid. I hope you find the spiritual partnership you deserve. I don't think you were put here to be miserable.


WOW. Ms. GutPunch, thank you for sharing. Again, I've read GutPunch's thread line by line and when you post here, I know that some woman (and men) can pull themselves up from their bootstraps.

I agree with you completely, especially this line:
_
it seems she is determined to stubbornly follow her course to the bitter end. You mentioned her stubbornness earlier, and her actions seem to mirror that._

It really hurts to watch up close. Even today, in the house here, vacancy behind her eyes. Just a shell. I need to get out of this house as soon as possible. 

I honestly feel bad for my wife. I don't feel bad saying it, and my course is set. But it is so sad.


----------



## TeddieG

spotthedeaddog said:


> You getting kick backs there Teddie?
> 
> Most people are smart enough to say don't go to lawyers or you wont have a financial future - who do you think pays for the nice suit, fancy offices, overseas trips, and expensive cars? The client !
> 
> And one of my old bosses had split up with his wife, and he would get to the precipice, and since things weren't going his way he would fire his lawyer and start again. He figured if he wasn't getting the marriage assets, she wasn't going to get them either. (yeah, _real_ nasty piece of passive aggressive work that guy)



If I sounded anything other than supportive and encouraging, I'm sorry. I was responding off the cuff and didn't mean to be insensitive. And didn't mean to be provocative to Grid. That's what I get for trying to keep up with the thread at work.

I didn't want a divorce OR to deal with a lawyer either. But I was fortunate enough to have the money to do it.


----------



## TeddieG

gridcom said:


> WOW. Ms. GutPunch, thank you for sharing. Again, I've read GutPunch's thread line by line and when you post here, I know that some woman (and men) can pull themselves up from their bootstraps.
> 
> I agree with you completely, especially this line:
> _
> it seems she is determined to stubbornly follow her course to the bitter end. You mentioned her stubbornness earlier, and her actions seem to mirror that._
> 
> It really hurts to watch up close. Even today, in the house here, vacancy behind her eyes. Just a shell. I need to get out of this house as soon as possible.
> 
> I honestly feel bad for my wife. I don't feel bad saying it, and my course is set. But it is so sad.


Yeah, the midlife crisis world calls that "shark eyes." I'm feeling for you, man. Those came EARLY in h's journey to AP hell. I have a feeling this could be a long journey for her. 

Hang in.


----------



## gridcom

TeddieG said:


> Yeah, the midlife crisis world calls that "shark eyes." I'm feeling for you, man. Those came EARLY in h's journey to AP hell. I have a feeling this could be a long journey for her.
> 
> Hang in.


As opposed to "Manson lamps" as Tony Soprano described Richie Aprile giving him a stare down in Season 2 of The Sopranos

Off topic?


----------



## TeddieG

gridcom said:


> As opposed to "Manson lamps" as Tony Soprano described Richie Aprile giving him a stare down in Season 2 of The Sopranos
> 
> Off topic?


Yeah, a little.


----------



## Ms. GP

This made me think of you.

"Most things will be OK eventually, but not everything will be. Sometimes you'll put up a good fight and lose. Sometimes you'll hold on really hard and realize there is no choice but to let go. Acceptance is a small, quiet room."

Cheryl Strayed
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Remember, you can only show her the way, she has to choose the road herself. 
Empathy and sympathy are never bad grid unless, you let both ruin your own happiness and life. 

Feeling bad for your wife I understand, but all the issues you are dealing with means it is time to move on.


----------



## bandit.45

gridcom said:


> WOW. Ms. GutPunch, thank you for sharing. Again, I've read GutPunch's thread line by line and when you post here, I know that some woman (and men) can pull themselves up from their bootstraps.
> 
> I agree with you completely, especially this line:
> _
> it seems she is determined to stubbornly follow her course to the bitter end. You mentioned her stubbornness earlier, and her actions seem to mirror that._
> 
> It really hurts to watch up close. Even today, in the house here, vacancy behind her eyes. Just a shell. I need to get out of this house as soon as possible.
> 
> I honestly feel bad for my wife. I don't feel bad saying it, and my course is set. But it is so sad.


I do believe a huge train crash is coming for your WW. It may not happen within the next year or even the next five, but once a person gets into the business of burning bridges it is hard for them to stop the momentum. Make sure you are emotionally and financially secure for the day when that happens.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Grid,

Whether a BS wants to reconcile, or D, the advice here is always the same:

*expose the affair* and then

*180 and detach*

Everything after that hinged on Tomato Soup's actions. Not her words, her *actions*.

She has shown you what she wants. Now your course is determined.

Protect your financial future. It will be vital for your childrens' future lifestyle. Don't leave that part of their life up to TS.

Divorce is an adversarial process. One of you is going to come out ahead. I hope it's you.

My guess is Tomato Soup will have a new guy shacking up with her within 6 months of your split, so make sure any alimony award has a cohabitation/remarriage clause. That one sentence in my D agreement saved me over 60 grand.


----------



## Thundarr

ButtPunch said:


> Good Grief....talk about the Captain going down with the ship.
> 
> Completely missed the point and too proud to even admit it. Everyone was right and I was wrong. Where's your HUMILITY? Ohhh at the irony.
> 
> *Grid I would sue her for six months of your life back.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Or pay tuition. Grid was forced to come to terms with a lot of things that will make him stronger. You may have been doing a lot of wrong things since this all started Grid but you've been doing the wrong things with the right intent and mindset. Let's face it, human nature is often counterintuitive so the normal rules don't apply. With other things in life we try harder and it helps; we compromise and it helps; we are nice and it helps; we use logic to solve problems and can then fix them.

These qualities sometimes sabotage us in relationships though. When you worked harder but your wife didn't it just made things worse; when you compromised she saw it as weak and unattractive; when you were nice she found you weak and unattractive; and logic didn't help because someone in a affair is immune to logic. They are a ball of emotion and hormones.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

I've been honest and blunt and I hope you know grid that I've got your back. But even though I'm blunt I get that it is agony to see someone you love make decisions that you know will hurt them. And I admit I am old school and want to save people too. But I didn't express that because I also know objectively, that although painful, you have to let go and let the one you love fail alone. I completely get the pain and sadness of detachment. But I'n also not there and am objective enough to see the longer term. And in that place you are independent and a good dad.

So maybe it's time to be talking about what Grid the single dad is thinking and doing with the real true loves in his life. Is there anything good to report with the little ones?


----------



## gridcom

TheTruthHurts said:


> I've been honest and blunt and I hope you know grid that I've got your back. But even though I'm blunt I get that it is agony to see someone you love make decisions that you know will hurt them. And I admit I am old school and want to save people too. But I didn't express that because I also know objectively, that although painful, you have to let go and let the one you love fail alone.  I completely get the pain and sadness of detachment. But I'n also not there and am objective enough to see the longer term. And in that place you are independent and a good dad.
> 
> So maybe it's time to be talking about what Grid the single dad is thinking and doing with the real true loves in his life. Is there anything good to report with the little ones?


Wife is working tonight, so they are up here in my office. 5 yr old is about to fall asleep to Scooby Doo and the 10 yr old is asking me questions about "you and mommy" and otherwise deep into Youtube.
The 10 year old knows too much and it sucks. She is a great kid and I am determined to make sure it stays that way. She is entering a sensitive age where she's start to see the world different and her place in it different. And I want to be there every single step of the way. I sit at my desk working my a$$ off and I think that I don't spend enough time with her. I hope this situation doesn't make that worse. I hope she understands that this wasn't what I wanted to have happen. 

She has seen me cry a few times over this (yes, I cry), because sh*t [email protected] it hurts. I dont think I ever saw my dad cry. I hope some of the band things she's seen and heard arent seered into her brain forever.

Their report cards came today and they were both stellar. I mean, hard to f^ck up too bad in kindergarten, right?

We are going into Queens on Sunday to see Santa with my mother, my sister and her family. It's also my birthday Sunday and this one is a big one for me. It's been a terrible year all the way around and I feel like ....well, you all know how I feel.

I was thinking of taking a roadtrip with the kids over XMas break, just get in the car and go visit some places and stay in hotels (My oldest daughter just likes hotels, for some reason). Maybe go to Great Wolf Lodge or something. But, no wife. And the kids will be like "No mommy?" and they may not be into going without her.


----------



## farsidejunky

I bet you could convince them otherwise, Grid.

My son,10, and I have little get togethers like that about once a quarter. Sometimes it involves overnight stays.

The last one we did was to the NASA rocket center in Huntsville, Alabama. He absolutely loves these days because it is just the two of us. Our next one will be the release of Star Wars and some accompanying activities.

Start to form those moments now, Grid. I hate to put it to you this way, but it is the future of your role in their lives. But just because it isn't what you thought it was going to be doesn't mean it can't be special.

Go for it, Grid.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Lostinthought61

while your soon to be ex maybe a lost cause at this moment your girls are not they will need you more then ever now, they will look to you as their rock in their life, not matter how screwed up their mother is, they have you to lean on, to count on and to show them the right path through life.


----------



## Thundarr

gridcom said:


> Wife is working tonight, so they are up here in my office. 5 yr old is about to fall asleep to Scooby Doo and the 10 yr old is asking me questions about "you and mommy" and otherwise deep into Youtube.
> The 10 year old knows too much and it sucks. She is a great kid and I am determined to make sure it stays that way. She is entering a sensitive age where she's start to see the world different and her place in it different. And I want to be there every single step of the way. I sit at my desk working my a$$ off and I think that I don't spend enough time with her. I hope this situation doesn't make that worse. I hope she understands that this wasn't what I wanted to have happen.


Kids want to love mom and dad no matter what therefore they find ways to blame themselves when mom and dad divorce. After all mom and dad are both perfect so it must be their fault somehow. My oldest son was seven when his mother and I divorced. He literally had a wrinkled forehead for two years because he was just old enough to know what was going on and he internalized as his fault even though I explained that it wasn't and that everything was going to be okay. Just remember Grid that there are life lessons for our little ones during this time as well. As the years pass, she will learn that you're there for her. That's what will make her life stable and secure. Hopefully she'll learn the same about her mom but that's not something you have control of.

As an update, that seven year old kid with the wrinkled forehead grew up, got married, joined the Marines and served our country, once leaving the marines joined the reserves, donated bone marrow that saved a 55 year old woman with hodgkin's disease, was ready to donate bone marrow again to a 27 year old mother of three until a first time donor was found, is a member of the voluntary fire department, calls his dad (me) often, has a good wife, a good job, four babies, and another on the way. Yes there were tough times and sometimes he was a tough kid but that's life.

What matters is that your girls look back and know that you were always there and that you will always be there.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Late night here. Kids fell asleep reading. Tucked in my little girls - 12, 12 and 14 and my boys 17 and 17. They grow up fast, If you're there for them - present / that's more than half the battle. The other is being a strong dad with firm boudarues and ethics. A real solid guy / their rock. Even keeled but with clear boundaries and a clear sense of right and wrong. Fairness but firmness. That's why you have to remain a strong individual who doesn't bend your values just because others around you do. 

Funny I watched Dexter on my garage TV and my D14 asked if I enjoyed "my little serial killer show". They kid and poke but I like what I like. Kind of cute. Lots of stuffed animals and hugs. Even hugs from my 17 year old boys. Not too old to hug their dad even if they're 6' and 6'2" they're still my little boys. (I'm 5'8")

Makes it worth while doesn't it?


----------



## LongWalk

I once took my daughters to a youth hostel in Dublin, Ireland. The building shook from the elevated trains and the toilet over flowed. They were not impressed and demanded to go to a hotel on the way back. You can never make life perfect for anyone. 

We made a great road trip together one summer, driving from Michigan to Ohio, where we stayed with my musician artist cousin and her kids. My cousin was dying of cervical cancer, leaving behind 4 kids, the youngest a teenage boy stealing from her to buy drugs. She died without being able to straighten him out. But his three big sisters are beautiful young women. My cousin did what she could. The kids know that.

From Ohio we travelled through Kentucky and Tennessee. We stopped at another cousin's place in Knoxville before heading back north. I stayed on state highways much of the time. Spent the better part of a day driving through the Daniel Boone park. Incredibly beautiful. Hardly saw any other.  cars. Drove past a ghost motel that had gone bankrupt. That night we ended up in kind of shabby place as the mountains got smaller. Ate breakfast in Waffle House with a couple of van loads of religious youth. Pardon me for the thread jack but we did this all listening to the Pixies on the car stereo. Even took D18 to the Pixies in concert when she was 16. So, you'll do tons of stuff with them.

Play Monopoly... okay the 5-year-old is too young still.

When you are able to move on and make it as a single dad, your wife may see it and change her mind, but the chances are not so great. She's been blame shifting her unhappiness to you for a long time. She may never pull it together or she may have a great life without you. Ultimately, you'll just want her to be happy because it's best for your kids.


----------



## Pluto2

Grid, your roadtrip idea is perfect. We have a Great Wolf Lodge down here, too, and it is a huge hit with the kids. You can tell them that this is something you've always wanted to do with just them, but you had to wait until they were old enough, and now they are. Sometimes hearing that from a parent can have a big impact of kids. Your youngest is probably too young for Monopoly, but I bet she can play Rat-A-Tat-Cat. Great card game for kids (and packs light)
Whatever, you do, you will be with them and they will know that being with them is what you wanted. Priceless.

And I am of the opinion that expressing emotions around children is healthy. They need to know when someone is sad they cry, and when they are happy they laugh and that everyone has these emotions-even Dad.


----------



## jld

gridcom said:


> Wife is working tonight, so they are up here in my office. 5 yr old is about to fall asleep to Scooby Doo and the 10 yr old is asking me questions about "you and mommy" and otherwise deep into Youtube.
> The 10 year old knows too much and it sucks. She is a great kid and I am determined to make sure it stays that way. She is entering a sensitive age where she's start to see the world different and her place in it different. And I want to be there every single step of the way. I sit at my desk working my a$$ off and I think that I don't spend enough time with her. I hope this situation doesn't make that worse.* I hope she understands that this wasn't what I wanted to have happen. *
> 
> She has seen me cry a few times over this (yes, I cry), because sh*t [email protected] it hurts. I dont think I ever saw my dad cry. I hope some of the band things she's seen and heard arent seered into her brain forever.
> 
> Their report cards came today and they were both stellar. I mean, hard to f^ck up too bad in kindergarten, right?
> 
> We are going into Queens on Sunday to see Santa with my mother, my sister and her family. It's also my birthday Sunday and this one is a big one for me. It's been a terrible year all the way around and I feel like ....well, you all know how I feel.
> 
> I was thinking of taking a roadtrip with the kids over XMas break, just get in the car and go visit some places and stay in hotels (My oldest daughter just likes hotels, for some reason). Maybe go to Great Wolf Lodge or something. But, no wife. And the kids will be like "No mommy?" and they may not be into going without her.


But you are letting it happen.

Grid, your daughter is pulling at _my_ heartstrings. I cannot believe you are letting your pride trump her little broken heart. 

Sorry. I just can't *not* be the voice of conscience here.

Your daughter's broken heart. Your other daughter's lack of understanding. Your wife's empty eyes. 

Grid! You don't see they need their man?

Don't give up, grid. At least give yourself some space. Your IC is trying to buy you time.

I don't think you want this divorce. I know your kids don't. I think your wife just wants some love, and is lost about how to truly get it.

And you are getting all the wrong "guidance" here. 

It is all such a shame, grid.


----------



## farsidejunky

Until your wife shows her intentions have changed to be good, you have nothing else to go off of but her current actions, brother.

What do her actions tell you?

Additionally, how does her attitude appear to be at the prospect of divorce?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Pluto2

No, jld, he's getting expert advice from multiple individuals who have ACTUALLY EXPERIENCED this pain, and heartache.... and survived. 

So again. One person cannot fix a broken marriage. Grid has no magical testosterone-riddled power over his wife. She chose another man.

Maybe she will regret her choice, maybe not. But expected Grid to just bite his lip, and live through it is the height of cruelty. This is not about his pride or his ego. It teaches no values to the children. It shows them no strength. It teaches his daughters that your spouse is allowed to stomp all over your emotions and you have to just take it for the sake of a dysfunctional marriage. 
Your voice has nothing to do with Grid's conscious. He is being a strong man, just not in the way you want him to be.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Until your wife shows her intentions to be good, you have nothing else to go off of but her actions, brother.


If he is looking for her to be the leader, that would be true.

I never thought she could be the leader, grid. I always knew it had to be you.

I thought eventually she would join you in taking responsibility for getting things back on track. But I knew it would take a long time.

Grid, MB's Plan A, the real and complete one, could still help you. @RoseAglow Could you please help with this, Rose?

I just hate to give up on you, man. And I really hate to give up on your family. *Somebody* has to advocate for your daughters!


----------



## TeddieG

jld said:


> *Somebody* has to advocate for your daughters!


That's Grid's job.


----------



## jld

TeddieG said:


> That's Grid's job.


And sadly, he is not doing it.


----------



## knobcreek

Does your wife see a therapist or psychiatrist? It's not beyond the realm of possibility that she's potentially bipolar, does she seem to eb and flow between manic and depressive states?

That said stay the course, waiting out a wife for two years while she has sex with another man will leave you mentally ill by the end of that two years, it's very unhealthy and could lead to severe depression and/or suicide. If your IC is recommending that I would look for another one.


----------



## Pluto2

I am not particularly adept at posting from another thread but I'll try. This is from a thread back in 2011:

"Unless I am mistaken, Dr. Harley himself admitted that the success rate of Plan A is only 15%. This makes me wonder if the success rate is that low, doesn't that mean such success rate may not be the direct result of Plan A? Maybe no matter what BS did, at least 15% of cases would end up as R regardless? "
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/504360-post13.html

So from the mouth of Dr. Harley, six months of gut-wrenching agony from Grid, with a possibility of 15% success rate.

And jld, Grid has already said he is NOT following this anymore since Mrs. Grid continued to lie to him about NC.


----------



## Pluto2

jld said:


> And sadly, he is not doing it.


The hell he isn't.


----------



## jld

knobcreek said:


> Does your wife see a therapist or psychiatrist? It's not beyond the realm of possibility that she's potentially bipolar, does she seem to eb and flow between manic and depressive states?
> 
> That said stay the course, waiting out a wife for two years while she has sex with another man will leave you mentally ill by the end of that two years, it's very unhealthy and could lead to severe depression and/or suicide. If your IC is recommending that I would look for another one.


She saw an IC once, and that person told her to leave grid, or so she reported.

Wazza waited out his wife's affair for four years. His kids were worth it.

That was some 25+ years ago. Their marriage eventually became very happy.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> She saw an IC once, and that person told her to leave grid, or so she reported.
> 
> Wazza waited out his wife's affair for four years. His kids were worth it.
> 
> That was some 25+ years ago. Their marriage eventually became very happy.


Are you suggesting he wait it out for 4 years?

Do you hear yourself?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## gridcom

knobcreek said:


> Does your wife see a therapist or psychiatrist? It's not beyond the realm of possibility that she's potentially bipolar, does she seem to eb and flow between manic and depressive states?
> 
> That said stay the course, waiting out a wife for two years while she has sex with another man will leave you mentally ill by the end of that two years, it's very unhealthy and could lead to severe depression and/or suicide. If your IC is recommending that I would look for another one.


My wife's mother side of the family has issues with mental illness, including her mother. Her mothers illness was severe when my wife was younger. I have thought a lot about this being an issue.

JLD, I am not going to allow my wife to lie to me and carry on with another man. I am not going to "ride it out" and kill her with kindness while she disrespects, lies, etc

To suggest I do so is kind of nutty, no?


----------



## Pluto2

jld said:


> His kids were worth it.


This is a heartless and despicable thing to say here. Shame on you for implying Grid is not caring for his children. He is all about his children.
I have lost all respect for you.


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## jld

Grid, I am with your IC. I believe you can, with the help of plan a, work this out. 

I just do not want to give up on you, grid. Not while you still have love in your heart for your wife. Love is a very powerful force.

That has to be at least part of what is keeping your IC going, too. She feels there is hope. 

Just saw your last post. Grid, Jesus's love for humanity made him do something "nutty," no?


----------



## just got it 55

farsidejunky said:


> I bet you could convince them otherwise, Grid.
> 
> My son,10, and I have little get togethers like that about once a quarter. Sometimes it involves overnight stays.
> 
> The last one we did was to the NASA rocket center in Huntsville, Alabama. He absolutely loves these days because it is just the two of us. Our next one will be the release of Star Wars and some accompanying activities.
> 
> Start to form those moments now, Grid. I hate to put it to you this way, but it is the future of your role in their lives. But just because it isn't what you thought it was going to be doesn't mean it can't be special.
> 
> Go for it, Grid.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Goes to my point Grid

100% Dad 50% of the time

55


----------



## farsidejunky

Shaming him now.

Very disappointed, JLD.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## jld

gridcom said:


> My wife's mother side of the family has issues with mental illness, including her mother. Her mothers illness was severe when my wife was younger. *I have thought a lot about this being an issue.*
> 
> JLD, I am not going to allow my wife to lie to me and carry on with another man. I am not going to "ride it out" and kill her with kindness while she disrespects, lies, etc
> 
> To suggest I do so is kind of nutty, no?


Then she needs you more than ever.

Oh, grid, please do not give up on her. Or on your family. 

This is just breaking my heart, grid. And it just does not have to be happening.


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## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Shaming him now.
> 
> Very disappointed, JLD.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I am disappointed in your lack of commitment to his family, far. Not holding him "accountable," as you always like to say.

Not that it matters what you or I think. What really matters is grid's family. Of whom he, as a Christian, is the leader.


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## farsidejunky

jld said:


> I am disappointed in your lack of commitment to his family, far. Not holding him "accountable," as you always like to say.
> 
> Not that it matters what you or I think. What really matters is grid's family. Of whom he, as a Christian, is the leader.


As is often the case, I see it differently.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## bfree

jld said:


> And sadly, he is not doing it.


I'm sorry but that's a damned cruel thing to say!


----------



## TeddieG

Pluto2 said:


> The hell he isn't.


This. jld, with all due respect, we have pointed out many times that only Grid lives with the consequences of his choices, not anyone else. I know you mean well, but there is a sense in which a post suggesting he's not taking care of the girls, and the only way to do that is to remain married to a cheater, is starting to sound hurtful; it would certainly hurt me if I were in a similar situation. My h and I don't have young children and his children are all adults, but if I had young children, the entire saga I lived through would be a thousand times more hellacious.


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## just got it 55

gridcom said:


> My wife's mother side of the family has issues with mental illness, including her mother. Her mothers illness was severe when my wife was younger. I have thought a lot about this being an issue.
> 
> JLD, I am not going to allow my wife to lie to me and carry on with another man. I am not going to "ride it out" and kill her with kindness while she disrespects, lies, etc
> 
> To suggest I do so is kind of nutty, no?


Not nutty insanely damaging and dangerous.

55


----------



## gridcom

jld said:


> Grid, I am with your IC. I believe you can, with the help of plan a, work this out.
> 
> I just do not want to give up on you, grid. Not while you still have love in your heart for your wife. Love is a very powerful force.
> 
> That has to be at least part of what is keeping your IC going, too. She feels there is hope.
> 
> Just saw your last post. Grid, Jesus's love for humanity made him do something "nutty," no?


No, this is not who I am. I am not going to suffer that way.

FWIW, my IC calls my wife's actions "provocative" and certainly isnt telling me to do what you are suggesting I do. She wanted to talk to my wife, I suppose, to get a read on her. 

Bottom line , though, is she certainly isnt suggesting I ALLOW her to play out an affair. 

Based on Ms. GP's post last night, I read some Al-Anon "slogans". Here's some:

*Keep It Simple:*
The slogan, “Keep It Simple” helps to remind us that simple solutions are
often the most effective ones. This slogan can help us look at what really is
happening rather than what we imagine may happen, and to take a
reasonable, step by step approach rather than act out of fear or panic. 

*Easy Does It:*
The slogan, “Easy Does It” helps us remember that trying to “force
solutions” often does not work. We may not be able to solve every problem in
the time frame we wish to solve it in. Some problems may not be for us to
solve. Sometimes a gentler, more patient approach is more effective and less
frustrating. 

*Just For Today:*
The slogan, “Just For Today” tells us that things are more manageable when
we deal with and live in the present. Things that seem way too difficult to
manage long term may seem more manageable if we deal with them just for
today. We can move forward in small steps rather than be overwhelmed by
trying to change everything at one time. 

*Let It Begin With Me:*
The slogan, “Let It Begin With Me” helps us to keep the focus on and be
responsible for our own actions and behaviors. This slogan helps us to take
action to change the things we can change and to take the responsibility to
get our own needs met, rather than waiting for others to change or to meet
our needs for us.

THIS ONE IS KEY FOR ME.
*Think:*
*The slogan, “Think” helps us to remember to think before we act on or react
to situations. This slogan helps us make good decisions about how to act.
When we apply this slogan, it helps free us from distorted thinking and
impulsive, potentially destructive decision-making. 
*

*One Day At A Time:*
The slogan, “One Day At A Time” provides a practical approach to challenges
and fears. We focus our energies on dealing productively with today, and we
give up worrying about a future we can not predict or control and about a
past we cannot change. It helps us break overwhelming tasks into manageable
steps. 

*Live And Let Live:*
The slogan, “Live And Let Live” has two parts. “Let live” reminds us to *allow
others the dignity of making their own decisions and experiencing the
consequences of their decisions and choices.* By minding our own business, we
are freed from feeling responsible for changing other. We also learn to “live”
by taking care of our own physical, emotional, and spiritual needs.


----------



## just got it 55

jld said:


> And sadly, he is not doing it.


That's a card you have no right to play JLD

shame on you indeed

55


----------



## ButtPunch

Pluto2 said:


> This is a heartless and despicable thing to say here. Shame on you for implying Grid is not caring for his children. He is all about his children.
> I have lost all respect for you.


I agree.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> As is often the case, I see it differently.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


And I still love you, anyway. That is what friends do.


And that is why I cannot give up on you, grid. I feel like I have to speak up. 

Your conscience knows this is wrong. Your IC knows it is wrong.

We still believe in you, anyway. We cannot find it in our hearts to give up on you. 

Grid, I have five kids. My youngest are ten and seven. I see your ten year old's face. I feel her pain. I cannot *not* speak up for her.


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> Grid, I am with your IC. I believe you can, with the help of plan a, work this out.
> 
> I just do not want to give up on you, grid. Not while you still have love in your heart for your wife. Love is a very powerful force.
> 
> That has to be at least part of what is keeping your IC going, too. She feels there is hope.
> 
> Just saw your last post. Grid, Jesus's love for humanity made him do something "nutty," no?


God also divorced Israel for adultery.


----------



## gridcom

jld said:


> She saw an IC once, and that person told her to leave grid, or so she reported.
> 
> Wazza waited out his wife's affair for four years. His kids were worth it.
> 
> That was some 25+ years ago. Their marriage eventually became very happy.


I dont know Wazza or his story, but I find it hard to believe ANY person who would allow their spouse to have a 4 year affair and then stay together, "happily ever after", is harboring deep rooted resentment somewhere deep inside


----------



## jld

gridcom said:


> I dont know Wazza or his story, but I find it hard to believe ANY person who would allow their spouse to have a 4 year affair and then stay together, "happily ever after", is harboring deep rooted resentment somewhere deep inside


 @Wazza

Can you share your story here, please?


----------



## ButtPunch

Grid

Alanon is a great program that teaches you how to deal with a$$ holes. It would tackle your codependency issues head on. It is geared for the spouses of addicts but it's teachings are valuable to more situations than that. 

Hell.... your ww is essentially an addict anyway.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## just got it 55

jld said:


> @Wazza
> 
> Can you share your story here, please?


What next JLD researching case law to support your position ?

55


----------



## Pluto2

ButtPunch said:


> Grid
> 
> Alanon is a great program that teaches you how to deal with a$$ holes. It would tackle your codependency issues head on. It is geared for the spouses of addicts but it's teachings are valuable to more situations than that.
> 
> Hell.... your ww is essentially an addict anyway.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


As one former co-dependent to another hopefully future former co-dependent (Grid), it helps.

ETA: fixed it


----------



## ButtPunch

Wazza's story isn't applicable case law here.

He waited for his wife to come around but she ended the affair out of respect for him. Mrs. Wazza was remorseful.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## just got it 55

jld said:


> And sadly, he is not doing it.


This is a ban worthy statement

I believe an apology is called for 

55


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> Wazza's story isn't applicable case law here.
> 
> He waited for his wife to come around but she ended the affair out of respect for him. Mrs. Wazza was remorseful.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It has not been four years yet.

And I am sure it will not take that long. He says her eyes are already empty.


----------



## jld

Do you want me to apologize for anything, grid?

It is your thread. Your thread, your rules.


----------



## bfree

gridcom said:


> I dont know Wazza or his story, but I find it hard to believe ANY person who would allow their spouse to have a 4 year affair and then stay together, "happily ever after", is harboring deep rooted resentment somewhere deep inside


Jld keeps bringing up Wazza as the second coming of Job continues to gain mythological status. As I've repeatedly said Wazza did not wait out his wife's affair for four years or any other prolonged period of time. Wazza's story is that he waited out his wife's unremorseful and stubborn nature for a few years until she began to recognize her actions were damaging. But she needs to be able to demonstrate that someone was successful using her methodology even if it's completely false.


----------



## TeddieG

jld, my h's eyes were empty six months in, and he has shown some remorse at times for hurting me, but not enough to come back to the relationship and make it work, or maybe because he does not want to face what he did. After his surgery in August, he started to bristle at what he himself knew without me telling him would be important, such as not contacting family members or friends of the OW; he couldn't help himself and did it anyway. Grid knows that I waited out h's affair for 7 years, and it was in the works six months before that. Some people can wait out affairs, some people can't, and sometimes the WS decides to leave behind the life with the BS and pursue life with the AP. There's no formula. As someone else pointed out, Dr. Harley's only got a 15% success rate. The "shark eyes" are something that occur early in the journey, and may continue or reappear, but even so, while there are stages to midlife crisis, every person experiences them in their own way and they overlap or start over if they're not finished. There's no way to time anything or anticipate completion of a journey based on another's experience. 

It's random, it is a crap shoot. People can only choose to respond the best way they know how when a cheating spouse blows up a marriage, and they can seek help and they can ask for advice and they can do the best they can, but in reality, it is what the WS does that determines the future of a relationship. There are things the BS can do to influence things to a point, but not determine an outcome. 

The sad thing about all of this, what makes it so poignant and so painful, is that while the BS DOES have some choices and CAN end the relationship, if they want the marriage to work, it may not matter if the WS does not. I repeat, there is NO formula . . . please be kind and accept that. The rest of us who HAVE been cheated on have been forced to. No matter how much you might mean well, the reality is, the BS cannot control the outcome.


----------



## Anon Pink

Hi grid,

I understand Retrouvaille was not at all helpful and you are moving forward to divorce. I just wanted to say I'm so sorry for this pain and anguish. I wish your wife had been able to step back to save her marriage as it certainly is in her best interest to do that. 

I wish you peace.


----------



## jld

TeddieG said:


> jld, my h's eyes were empty six months in, and he has shown some remorse at times for hurting me, but not enough to come back to the relationship and make it work, or maybe because he does not want to face what he did. After his surgery in August, he started to bristle at what he himself knew without me telling him would be important, such as not contacting family members or friends of the OW; he couldn't help himself and did it anyway. Grid knows that I waited out h's affair for 7 years, and it was in the works six months before that. Some people can wait out affairs, some people can't, and sometimes the WS decides to leave behind the life with the BS and pursue life with the AP. There's no formula. As someone else pointed out, Dr. Harley's only got a 15% success rate. The "shark eyes" are something that occur early in the journey, and may continue or reappear, but even so, while there are stages to midlife crisis, every person experiences them in their own way and they overlap or start over if they're not finished. There's no way to time anything or anticipate completion of a journey based on another's experience.
> 
> It's random, it is a crap shoot. People can only choose to respond the best way they know how when a cheating spouse blows up a marriage, and they can seek help and they can ask for advice and they can do the best they can, but in reality,* it is what the BS does that determines the future of a relationship. * There are things the WS can do to influence things to a point, but not determine an outcome.
> 
> The sad thing about all of this, what makes it so poignant and so painful, is that while the BS DOES have some choices and CAN end the relationship, if they want the marriage to work, it may not matter if the WS does not. I repeat, there is NO formula . . . please be kind and accept that. The rest of us who HAVE been cheated on have been forced to. No matter how much you might mean well, the reality is, the WS cannot control the outcome.


I totally agree with the bolded.

It is why I have hung in there with grid.


----------



## Pluto2

jld said:


> It has not been four years yet.
> 
> And I am sure it will not take that long. He says her eyes are already empty.


Good grief.
Does it even cross your mind that Grid sees her eyes as empty BECAUSE she no longer loves the man she is married to.

(Sorry Grid)


----------



## jld

bfree said:


> Jld keeps bringing up Wazza as the second coming of Job continues to gain mythological status. As I've repeatedly said Wazza did not wait out his wife's affair for four years or any other prolonged period of time. Wazza's story is that he waited out his wife's unremorseful and stubborn nature for a few years until she began to recognize her actions were damaging. But she needs to be able to demonstrate that someone was successful using her methodology even if it's completely false.


I think we need to hear from @Wazza directly. I have heard bits and pieces, but never the whole story from beginning to end.

There are success stories on MB. @RoseAglow has talked about them.

To a great degree, grid, in my heart, _hope springs eternal!_


----------



## ButtPunch

Grid felt you had a connection to his wife and followed your advice to the word despite the experienced posters telling him to 180.

It failed miserably and now Grid sees it.

Sorry
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Looks like the magic eight-balls of projection are rolling around the room again.

Keep on keeping on, Grid.

Calm, firm, dispassionate.

180 and detach.

Keep planning for the future as a single dad. Protect your financial future.

You, and your kids, are going to be OK. 

Every single person who has walked this path is telling you the very same things. Listen to them.


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> Grid felt you had a connection to his wife and followed your advice to the word despite the experienced posters telling him to 180.
> 
> It failed miserably and now Grid sees it.
> 
> Sorry
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He did not follow it to the word. He had his own version of plan a that he followed. And my ideas are not really plan a, either, though close.


----------



## gridcom

Anon Pink said:


> Hi grid,
> I wish your wife had been able to step back to save her marriage as it certainly is in her best interest to do that.


Me too.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> He did not follow it to the word. He had his own version of plan a that he followed. And my ideas are not really plan a, either, though close.


Whatever
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thundarr

jld said:


> And sadly, he is not doing it.
> 
> 
> gridcom said:
> 
> 
> 
> JLD, I am not going to allow my wife to lie to me and carry on with another man. I am not going to "ride it out" and kill her with kindness while she disrespects, lies, etc
> 
> To suggest I do so is kind of nutty, no?
Click to expand...

It's good that you see the absurdity in the statement but you shouldn't have to deal with comments like that. Comments that play on your pain and uncertainty. For what it's worth, I don't think it was meant for you even though it was at your emotional expense.


----------



## TeddieG

Thundarr said:


> It's good that you see the absurdity in the statement but you shouldn't have to deal with comments like that. Comments that play on your pain and uncertainty. For what it's worth, I don't think it was meant for you *even though it was at your emotional expense*.


Yup. And this makes me sad. JLD, I made a typo in my post and meant to say that the BS can have some influence, but did not mean to say that what the BS does can determine the future of the relationship. So you grabbed a typo. But the fact that you think my typo is true is what creates some waves of frustration for hurting folks here. I have edited my original post. No betrayed spouse has control of the outcome of a relationship where the other spouse is cheating or checked out.


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> I think we need to hear from @Wazza directly. I have heard bits and pieces, but never the whole story from beginning to end.
> 
> There are success stories on MB. @RoseAglow has talked about them.
> 
> To a great degree, grid, in my heart, _hope springs eternal!_


So if you've never heard the whole story why do you keep bringing it up and using it as an example? That's completely disingenuous.


----------



## jld

bfree said:


> So if you've never heard the whole story why do you keep bringing it up and using it as an example? That's completely disingenuous.


Not at all. It is giving hope based on a tam member's experience.

We do need to hear from Wazza, though. He is the one who can tell us the complete story.

And there are success stories on MB that Rose has read.

I think love is the common denominator. I think with love all things are possible.


----------



## jld

TeddieG said:


> Yup. And this makes me sad. JLD, I made a typo in my post and meant to say that the BS can have some influence, but did not mean to say that what the BS does can determine the future of the relationship. So you grabbed a typo. But the fact that you think my typo is true is what creates some waves of frustration for hurting folks here. I have edited my original post. No betrayed spouse has control of the outcome of a relationship where the other spouse is cheating or checked out.


I did not think it was a typo. To me it rang true.

We need to speak as honestly and sincerely as possible. That is the greatest gift we can give each other.


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> Not at all. It is giving hope based on a tam member's experience.
> 
> We do need to hear from Wazza, though. He is the one who can tell us the complete story.
> 
> And there are success stories on MB that Rose has read.
> 
> I think love is the common denominator. I think with love all things are possible.


Hope based on a lie. As I've asked you repeatedly please do not use Wazza as an example until you know what you are saying is true and he gives you permission to do so. What you are doing is dishonest and presumptuous.


----------



## jld

bfree said:


> Hope based on a lie. As I've asked you repeatedly please do not use Wazza as an example until you know what you are saying is true and he gives you permission to do so. What you are doing is dishonest and presumptuous.


Disagree. 

And grid, I have already told you I would give my own sons the same advice I have given you. Everything I have said comes right from my heart.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Hey grid,

I'm 3 1/2 years out from the finalization of my D, to give you some perspective.

I was at my son's freshman basketball game last night. Yeah, I was "that divorced guy" in the stands

So my ex and her live-in boyfriend sat a few rows down in front of me. Now, I'm an unabashed vindictive fella, so it tickled me to no end when I noticed she had completely let herself go, and had packed on a good 20 pounds or so- which is a lot on a 5'1" frame! Sausage roll, I've heard some ladies call the look?

And I think, "here I am. I have a millionaire girlfriend of 2.5 years, 5'1" 105 lbs who has impeccable character and is beautiful (and a good cook!). Jeez, I'm so glad I got away from* that*! Her affair partners did me a* huge* favor."

Meanwhile, the ex's boyfriend is fawning all over her with plenty of PDA during the game (he's an attorney and serial cheater). Puke. Next thing I hear is the wife of my buddy, who is sitting to my left, say "kiss me honey". He's like "I'm not kissing you here." And they proceed to bicker for the rest of the game. I was laughing inside. Man, he needs to read up on fitness tests!

I guess the point here is: There is a light at the end of this tunnel, and 2-3 years from now you will be thankful you got away from this character-disordered woman.

Sorry for the jack.


----------



## Pluto2

jld said:


> Disagree.
> 
> And grid, I have already told you I would give my own sons the same advice I have given you. Everything I have said comes right from my heart.


And if you had a daughter in Grid's situation, would you still advise the same?


----------



## jld

Pluto2 said:


> And if you had a daughter in Grid's situation, would you still advise the same?


No.

That is correct, grid. I see my daughter differently than I see my sons. I expect my daughter to be protected. I expect my sons to protect. Different vulnerabilities. 

But knowing my daughter, she would probably listen to and follow the advice I would give my sons. Some women are very strong.


----------



## Pluto2

Bingo.

And, by all mean, keep insulting every female poster who disagrees with you. Good to know how weak I am.

(I do love that ignore function, where is it now, lower left....)


----------



## jld

Pluto2 said:


> Bingo.
> 
> And, by all mean, keep insulting every female poster who disagrees with you. Good to know how weak I am.
> 
> (I do love that ignore function, where is it now, lower left....)


I said that about my daughter. I do think she is very strong. 

That does not mean other women are weak.

Grid, I trust you know what I meant. Feel free to ask if you have questions.

And I will limit my posts to addressing you directly.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

gridcom said:


> I dont know Wazza or his story, but I find it hard to believe ANY person who would allow their spouse to have a 4 year affair and then stay together, "happily ever after", is *harboring deep rooted resentment somewhere deep insid*e


 Do yourself a favor and search out Wazza's posts. Since he has been used as a reconciliation martyr, in multiple threads, I went back and read hundreds of his posts. I am cherry picking, but trying to save you some inner turmoil. You need some context to this "he waited" claptrap being thrown around.

I had to see for myself.


Wazza said:


> *OK, first thing is, reconciliation takes two. You want to reconcile, but does she?
> *





Wazza said:


> That's going to happen. I did the same thing. Frankly, my wife should have left me the way I treated her at some points.
> 
> You have to work through things and deal with them, but honestly, nothing she says or does will make it unhappen. You have to deal with that and get it into perspective.
> *
> The other thing is there will now always be triggers, always be doubts. Deal with it. If that means leaving her so be it. How will you find someone who won't cheat? Or will you live alone? Or take the risk.
> 
> For me my wife is worth the triggers and sadness.* She is mostly amazing and I love her. Some people need to divorce because they cannot get over looking at their spouse and remembering. You have to decide which is right for you.
> 
> I know it hurts like hell, and the things I am saying are easy to say and hard to do. But you want to succeed? Work out what it takes to succeed and do it.





Wazza said:


> *22 years out, and I still am working at making things better...still confronting issues arising from the affair and working through them. I don't know that there is any magic wand. I just decided my marriage was worth working through the pain. *Matt and MrsM need to decide whether theirs is.





Wazza said:


> * would also start making active preparations for divorce. If she is willing to be intimate with other men, and not even willing to attempt to work on your marriage, you know where you stand. Sorry.*





Wazza said:


> Affair was many years ago, had no support, no information, had to find my own way. She would lie, I would catch her out, in a cycle. *In the end I gave up. I was staying for the kids.
> *
> Over years we rebuilt. I became convinced of her remorse and commitment. Went with that.
> 
> Thing is, it is so long ago there is no way to verify much any more. So I wouldn't know if she had told the truth. She possibly has by now, but I cannot check it.


 The bold adds an entirely new context to "waiting it out" doesn't it. Waiting it out is not the same, in any world, as "I gave up." 

I may not always agree with him, but I think he speaks from honesty without much of an agenda if any.


----------



## Bibi1031

jld said:


> It has not been four years yet.
> 
> And I am sure it will not take that long. He says her eyes are already empty.


The empty eyes are because she is void of feelings for Grid, she has completely detached emotionally from him. It doesn't mean she is empty inside. Do not make that grave mistake. I did when I saw midlife crisis X's eyes. The only time his eyes showed emotion towards me was when he was angry and resentful towards me because he was stuck in a life that was prohibiting him from being with OW. When he wasn't angry or resentful at me, the shark eyes appeared. Those are scary as hell to witness. It's a window into just how far gone they are from us. 

This more than likely means she is gone beyond hope Grid. She will never regret leaving You. If she loved you at one point, she has buried that way too deep. 

Move on please, if she ever regrets her decision, you will not be privy to that. 

Take it from one shark eye receiver to another. Your marriage IS dead to her!

Bibi


----------



## bfree

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Do yourself a favor and search out Wazza's posts. Since he has been used as a reconciliation martyr, in multiple threads, I went back and read hundreds of his posts. I am cherry picking, but trying to save you some inner turmoil. You need some context to this "he waited" claptrap being thrown around.
> 
> I had to see for myself.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The bold adds an entirely new context to "waiting it out" doesn't it. Waiting it out is not the same, in any world, as "I gave up."
> 
> I may not always agree with him, but I think he speaks from honesty without much of an agenda if any.


And when he speaks of giving up he is talking about giving up on his wife showing remorse and coming clean with the truth about her affair which had already ended by that time. He DID NOT stay married and wait four years for her affair to end! I don't always agree with him either but Wazza is not a willing cuckold.


----------



## just got it 55

jld said:


> Not at all. It is giving hope based on a tam member's experience.
> 
> We do need to hear from Wazza, though. He is the one who can tell us the complete story.
> 
> And there are success stories on MB that Rose has read.
> 
> I think love is the common denominator. I think with love all things are possible.


Yes BUT..... Mrs. Grid loves the OM

Sorry Grid

55


----------



## Bibi1031

just got it 55 said:


> Yes BUT..... Mrs. Grid loves the OM
> 
> Sorry Grid
> 
> 55


And that is the crux if this $hit!


----------



## LongWalk

Jld,

In your last controversial post you drew a lot of criticism. You have a right to your opinion. There is something in what you say about Grid's need to be there for his wife and daughters.

There is only one way to go now. Grid has to be stable and strong. What on earth would his wife think of him if he allowed her to openly fornicate with OM and return home reeking of sex?

Grid is not up for it. And if Grid refuses to divorce as she has requested, eventually it is likely she will throw the affair in his face again.

JLD,

Please read GP's thread.

Also, if post divorce Grid won a million in the lottery or inherited it from Uncle Donald, would his wife put out feelers for reconciliation?

The day that his wife sees him on Facebook playing the drums with a local rock and roll band and he has new girlfriend, that will be the day she may feel regret.

Grid,

Who are your favorite drummers?


----------



## gridcom

LongWalk said:


> Jld,
> 
> In your last controversial post you drew a lot of criticism. You have a right to your opinion. There is something in what you say about Grid's need to be there for his wife and daughters.
> 
> There is only one way to go now. Grid has to be stable and strong. What on earth would his wife think of him if he allowed her to openly fornicate with OM and return home reeking of sex?
> 
> Grid is not up for it. And if Grid refuses to divorce as she has requested, eventually it is likely she will throw the affair in his face again.
> 
> JLD,
> 
> Please read GP's thread.
> 
> Also, if post divorce Grid won a million in the lottery or inherited it from Uncle Donald, would his wife put out feelers for reconciliation?
> 
> The day that his wife sees him on Facebook playing the drums with a local rock and roll band and he has new girlfriend, that will be the day she may feel regret.
> 
> Grid,
> 
> Who are your favorite drummers?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LTASPqCz8M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UgDy2jkPjU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJ2uDTqD_OU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DtbfrGP2Zg

and !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=308UWxRAZtE


----------



## just got it 55

https://youtu.be/7Ijn1RLYEtE

Billy Cobham



55


----------



## lifeistooshort

The nastiness directed at jld is uncalled for. She has a particular philosophy based on her own experience and views of gender roles that works for her and Dug, and she speaks from the heart. She believes this marriage can be saved.

And last time I checked differing viewpoints are allowed here. It's very petty to put her on ignore because you disagree, that's the same type of narrow mindedness that drives our divisive political system: if I don't agree I won't listen.

Do I agree with her? Sometimes and sometimes not; I'm not sure if I think this marriage can be saved. I'll admit I really hoped it would be but I had doubts given the level of anger and resentment on the part of grid's wife and grid's inability to stop pushing and trying to control. 

But it is true that as long as om is around nothing can be done, and honestly them splitting up will likely hasten his departure as his wife needs someone with money once grid is gone. 

Is it possible that this might resolve if grid waits it out? Maybe, but the toll on grid would be horrendous. Would this marriage have been saved if grid had employed the scorched Earth policy advocated by many? Honestly I doubt it given their history of him being a bit of a bully. ....all she would see is that nothing changed, as he's seeing right now. 

Besides, given that tam likes to throw around how few marriages survive female infidelity I wonder how effective this scorched earth policy can really be.

At this point I think the divorce needs to go forward. There's simply too much bitterness and om is still in the picture. 

But the nastiness directed at jld is uncalled for. Shame on all who are nasty to differing viewpoints. Grid isn't stupid, he'll choose his path.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## just got it 55

https://youtu.be/OzOVAU0GncM

Billy Kilson 

This guy can stop your heart

55


----------



## gridcom

lifeistooshort said:


> But it is true that as long as om is around nothing can be done, and honestly them splitting up will likely hasten his departure as his wife needs someone with money once grid is gone.


Gross to think she'll need to size men up in part by their financial situation


----------



## RoseAglow

Let the gnashing of teeth and wailing begin!

Grid, I'm going to offer you a different framework here. 

You said earlier that prior to the OM arriving, you weren't the best husband. You own your faults, which is honest and courageous; a lot of people are in so much pain while going through infidelity that they can't really see past it, to own up to their actions which harmed the marriage. It did NOT cause the cheating, because there are many ways to address and repair those damages. The damages were part of the state of your marriage prior to the affair, and almost certainly it's the image your WW has of what she'd return to, if she quit her affair.

You also said something that I thought was quite perceptive: you said that you were willing to change, and started to make changes, once you found out about the affair, but she was too addicted to the OM to really see them.

That is exactly the framework that I am offering here: affairs are addictive. While your wife is in her affair, she is in active addiction. I've read that falling in love lights up the same brain areas as illicit drugs, and you'll find plenty of posts on TAM that talk about limerence and dopamine and falling in love, so there is some actual scientific evidence behind it. 

Your wife is basically an active addict at this time. All of the crap behaviors and basic nastiness and selfishness that she is showing- it's all run-of-the-mill wayward/addict behavior. I know there is an initial reaction of "How can she do this? What kind of person is she? She is evil!!" its all normal behavior for an active addict. It doesn't make her actions any less dangerous or painful, but I hope it helps you to realize that it's not personal. Every active addict does it. As the saying goes, it really is her, not you!

So as the loved one of an addict, what do you do? One of the sayings associated with recovery from co-dependency on an addict is: "You didn't cause it, you can't cure it, and you can't control it. But you can contribute to it."

You did not cause her cheating. You already know you can't cure it and you can't control her. The trick is in trying to figure what exactly you might be contributing. Another word for "Contributing" is "Enabling". 

Again, I haven't read your thread in its entirity, so I am just throwing some ideas out there. I don't know if your kids know yet, but if, not they should. You should be the one to tell them: "your mommy has a boyfriend, and that's not allowed when people are married. I am doing everything I can to save the marriage. None of this is your fault." 

First, your kids' lives are being thrown into turmoil, and this lets them know why in an age-appropriate way. It is not putting down your wife. It helps them make sense of what is going on. Even a 4 year old knows that you can't have a boyfriend when your married.

Second, it helps to kill the affair. Your kids might ask her if she's talking to her boyfriend. They are (rightfully!) not going to like him. It will help (rightfully and legitimately) make it much less comfortable for her to continue on with the affair, especially if she's doing it in the family home, in front of everybody. 

Now, what else can you do to help make it difficult? If you see her texting/calling/emailing her AP in front of you, you call her out on it calmly. "It's extremely disrespectful to talk to your affair partner in front of the family that is being ripped apart because of your affair." 

If she is like 99% of WWs she will try to throw it back on you: "I didn't kill the marriage! You did, long before I ever looked at OM!"

The appropriate response is something like this: "I had faults that I am fixing. You'll get the benefit when we rebuild our marriage after you end your affair." 

If you still want to try to save your marriage, you'll be repeating it often, calmly, in the face of a spitting mad or just mean wayward wife. "We can have a great marriage/I will build a great marriage with you once you end your affair."

If you are truly done with your marriage, it might still be worth it to call her out, but your response will be different. "I understand why you'd feel that way. I am working on my issues. It's still rude of you to do this in front of me and the kids." Something that is still honest, delivered calmly.

Either way, she will likely continue her evil, exorcist-like responses/behavior, but you stopping her is not the point. You can't stop her. The point is to stop your enabling/just allowing it to happen. And this kind of soft confrontation is very powerful if it's in front of your kids. Very important that it's soft and respectful! But it will get your kids eyes on her, at that time and also moving forward, and that typically makes it VERY uncomfortable for a WS.

Are you paying for Internet, and is she using the Internet to communicate with her OM? End her Internet access. Put a code on it and put the code on your and your kids' items. Are you paying for her phone? Stop paying for her phone line.

Yes, she might end up paying on her own, maybe she is already. But the point is, you want to stop your contribution/enabling. 

Many WWs get so frustrated by these behaviors that they actually leave the house and the kids (the kids stay with you in their home). She can't continue to get her fix in peace and comfort, so she leaves to find her own little opium den. This should be considered as a success. If you still harbor a hope that you can save your marriage, it will subject her to the real-world consequences of her decisions. Her OM is in no position to replace her home and family. If you are determined to divorce, her leaving the house will help you in the divorce process because it will set the precedent of you being with the kids in the house. And either way, it will be much easier on you emotionally and physically if she has left.

So lets talk a little more about addicts. First, someone who is high has, by definition, altered their perception of reality. I think you were on-target when you said that your wife couldn't see/didn't care about the changes you have made because she's too focused on her OM. 

She is still high. She cannot see the reality in front of her. She cannot see your positive changes. In fact, you are the enemy and the cause of her addiction, in her mind. When she's high, she is going to read Evil Intent into everything you do. 

If you think about it, you might recognize a pattern. She probably starts to show glimmers of her old self, then reverts back to the angry, nasty alien. She'll get better when she's away from him, then she'll revert back anytime she gets a "hit" of the OM. A hit can be actual contact, or looking at Spotify/Facebook etc. 

I want to reiterate my point again here that all of that nasty, spewing crap coming out of her mouth, her rotten attitude, and her tendency to make you the Root of All Evil is typical addict crap. She is no worse than any other run-of-the mill addict. It's why we refer to a Cheating Playbook- the all say the same kinds of BS, they are all liars and thieves. They all destroy families, cause enormous pain and destruction. 

The good news is, many addicts recover. The bad news is, it often takes time, and it often takes more than one attempt. How many smokers quit for good the first time? Some, but very few. Relapse is more the normal than the exception. 

As addicts, waywards relapse, too. It is predictable, it is the norm. Almost all APs have a few rounds of contact, or the affair re-ignites, if serious and significant changes aren't made. The most important is No Contact. The addict agrees to go cold turkey/go through withdrawal. But it an only be successful if the environment is changed as well. A WW who is trying to reconcile/recovery cannot hang out with the AP, or the AP's friends. They should not revisit the places where they conducted the affair. They should not have access to the email/social media that was a conduit for the affair. All avenues that made the affair possible should be closed. It's the same for addicts who go into rehab and halfway houses. Waywards who work together? They are like crackheads, going into the crackhouse. All of those people and places and things must change, if there will be success.

Your wife broke NC. I can understand if this is the final straw for you. I would encourage you, though, to view her break as a relapse because she has an addiction. It was a not a signal that she doesn't love you. It was a signal that she doesn't have the strength, the "sober tools" yet to finally truly quit. She had not changed her people, places, things. It was too easy, and she was still too close (work, Internet) to her drug. It is reality and hopefully it will be less emotionally painful for you. 

The really great news about addicts? Those who do recover tend to be really amazing people. They have first-hand knowledge, a deep understanding that they are flawed (as all people are, but not all can truly appreciate). They have a very solid understanding that their actions have real consequences, not only for them, but also for the people who love and depend on them. 

It takes time to break the addiction, to go withdrawal, and for a recovering addict to begin to see things clearly. It can take up to two years before the addict, and the loves, begin to feel safe. If an addict can make it five years clean and sober, they are highly likely to stay clean for the long haul (at least for cigarettes and alcohol, per the study referenced in my signature line.) I think it's not a coincidence that infidelity experts say that recovery from infidelity takes 2-5 years.

Just as one quick example from your thread, Wazza was referenced and Knobcreek posted that they got their remorseful spouses back within/around 2 years. It doesn't happen for all Waywards, but many WSs do "wake up" and return within test 2 year period. This is why your MC is telling you to hang in there, why Retrouviller is encouraging you to take the long view. Chances are good that your wife will be out of addiction/affair fog sometime in the next 24 months. 

The heartbreak of addiction is that recovery is not guaranteed. It can be extremely difficult to break an addiction. People only manage it once the pain of the addiction outweighs its pleasures. The pleasures are in truth only delusions, but the addict doesn't know it until they are out of the trap. Some never get out of the trap. 

No one knows, not even your wife, when or whether she'll break her addiction to the OM. I would put her in the high 90 percentile though that she'll wake up to his reality (can't support her and kids). I haven't read the whole thread, but the strong impression is that this guy is not a threat to become a step-dad to your kids. 

When/if she wakes up, she's not going to really understand what happened at first. She will not remember saying or doing a lot of the terrible things she said/did to you. She will have a fuzzy, "day after" recollection of what went down. She'll be piecing it all together. She'll have a vague sense of how you behaved, and she'll start reassigning meaning to your behavior. Depending on how you acted, you may or may not still be the Root of All Evil in her clearing mind. Were you overall calm, cool, collected, as is generally encouraged on TAM? Or did your emotions get the best of you more times then not, and overall, you were the angry guy she knew for much of her marriage? She is a lot more likely to want to try again with the former; she'll likely want to move on from the latter.

Of course, you may have already moved on, and she may have no choice. But even then, she might be thinking, I regret the affair, but not the end if my marriage. You still have plenty of time to show her that the means was wrong but the end was right, or vice versa. It would feel better for you, it would be better for your kids, and it will improve your future relationships (with your wife or with someone else) if you take this time and make a strong, unwavering commitment to self improvement, even regarding your wayward wife. 

Self-improvement Is not for her- it's for you. I think you've started on it, but there are other perspectives that I'd like to offer up. It will be on another post, though. 

My goal on this post was to provide a different framework. I do think that the framework is accurate, and it's my hope that this perspective is helpful to you and others. I wanted to offer it as a tool to help answer Why Is This Happening, Why is S/he Acting like This, and also to help BS's find a way to not take the WS's babbling personally. You don't take the words of a sloppy drunk seriously, right? It's my hope that this perspective will help people to "detach with love" (another recovery saying), and help alleviate some of resentments which, although they are well earned, poison the person who harbors them. 

I also wanted to reset expectations. Most WS don't get it absolutely right at first, they often stumble, and many (most?) have at least one relapse, but it doesn't mean necessarily mean that they can't recover, or that reconciliation is impossible. Recovery from infidelity, whether after divorce or via reconciliation with the wayward partner, takes time. You need a long view to be successful for either one. 
@jld, this was not a post about Plan A as you requested. I will work on that one later. It was not my intention to post either for or against reconciliation. But I wanted to provide a framework on which the decision to attack the affair and then wait out for recovery would make sense. And it does make sense, for some but not all BSs, with some but not all WSs.


----------



## Ms. GP

Grid, 
I'm glad you found some of the Alanon literature helpful. I don't personally consider myself a member, but I have attended several meetings and read the , "How Alanon Works" book cover to cover. I really like the personal stories in the back. They give me lots of hope.

That being said, I think the most loving thing GP did for me back then was let me go. I don't hold any anger towards him for that. I pretty much forced his hand. Another alanon slogan is, "sometimes you have to love people from a distance." I know it must have killed him, but it was the best MOST LOVING thing he could have done for me.

I believe marriage is a spiritual partnership. I think we unconsciously seek out partners to bring up all our old emotional wounds, so we can heal them ourselves. Even the Bible makes exceptions for divorce when adultery is involved. That makes sense to me. You can't have a spiritual partnership when a third party is involved.

P.S. I see what your doing there @LongWalk. I like the drummer from Def Leopard. He's rocking and rolling with one arm! That's gotta count for something!!
I'll piggy back with, what's the most embarrassing song on your iPod/phone. I'll start. It's Mariah Carey, "All I Want for Christmas is You." We do a routine in Zumba to it with kick ball changes, windmill turn, and my personal favorite jazz hands. I don't know what's more embarrassing how I look doing the dance or the big goofy grin on my face because I'm having so much fun!!


----------



## Evinrude58

What you're saying makes a lot of sense---/ if he could really "attack the affair" and she actually lived him. She's flat out said and showed that she doesn't. Wait 2 years???? That's crazy. 

You are giving him hope that his wife might in 2 years quit her affair partner. It's more likely in two years she will move in to yet another man.

This is a terrible thing to get him to second guess himself when it's obvious he has made the right decision.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pluto2

Evinrude58 said:


> What you're saying makes a lot of sense---/ if he could really "attack the affair" and she actually lived him. She's flat out said and showed that she doesn't. Wait 2 years???? That's crazy.
> 
> You are giving him hope that his wife might in 2 years quit her affair partner. It's more likely in two years she will move in to yet another man.
> 
> This is a terrible thing to get him to second guess himself when it's obvious he has made the right decision.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


yea. the 15% solution.

I'm out

Grid I am 100% in your corner, but others.... well I don't want to start a spat. Its a pity they don't seem to respect your decision. Oops there I go again.


----------



## just got it 55

Lifeistooshort

I will call out any offensive and hurtful post I see

And not ashamed to do it

Any poster who puts into question a parents motives and action as to how they effect their children is hurtful offensive and harmful to someone clearly in unimaginable pain.

This is not a matter of opinion to state "And sadly, he is not doing it."in reference to caring for his children.

That's just plain cruel to push an agenda not an opinion.


Sorry Grid 

55


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Stall at your peril. She filed in September and it is in December. She has NEVER wavered. 
She went to marriage counseling FOR YOU. 
She went to retrouville FOR YOU.
She had sex to keep you complacent FOR YOU.

Yet, she has told you the truth. She wants out and wants reconciliation to fail. There's a point you need to move forward. You stay mad because you are believing she is in the fog, she is like a drug addicted person, she'll come crawling back etc etc etc. 

Let me tell you something, I don't continually give people a chance to lie to me. Why? It becomes my fault. WHy? At some point I have to believe they are telling the truth and the lies are to avoid trouble.

She filed for divorce and doesn't want reconciliation to work. So, your reluctance to accept this fact fosters lying. Is it right? Nope. Is it happening? Yes. 

Give her what she wants.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

just got it 55 said:


> I will call out any offensive and hurtful post I see
> 
> And not ashamed to do it
> 
> Any poster who puts into question a parents motives and action as to how they effect their children is hurtful offensive and harmful to someone clearly in unimaginable pain.
> 
> This is not a matter of opinion to state "And sadly, he is not doing it."in reference to caring for his children.
> 
> That's just plain cruel to push an agenda not an opinion.
> 
> 
> Sorry Grid
> 
> 55


Let it go and focus on grid. It's always sad, some posters get a pass being insulting and their defenders seem to miss those posts. All types of posters, in many different threads.


----------



## lifeistooshort

gridcom said:


> Gross to think she'll need to size men up in part by their financial situation


Happens all the time with people who can't support themselves..... first priority is basic necessities. My hb's ex wife talked about how she had to find a guy with retirement money because she didn't appropriately plan and now she has no money. Drives her nuts that I'm younger, in better shape, and make a lot more money. 

She finally married a guy with retirement benefits.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TheTruthHurts

My post seems to have gotten lost in the ethers. 

I se the wake cased by JLD but not her posts because I blocked her. I know you really liked hearing from her because she sounded like your WW and you were doing everyithing to change WW and fix her. 

But that's now done. Maybe it's time for you to block JLD too. Not out of disrespect, but because you've made your decision to detach and focus on the kids, and move forward. I think you'll be in a better place to detach without the guilt and blame JLD is piling on.


----------



## bfree

lifeistooshort said:


> Happens all the time with people who can't support themselves..... first priority is basic necessities. My hb's ex wife talked about how she had to find a guy with retirement money because she didn't appropriately plan and now she has no money. Drives her nuts that I'm younger, in better shape, and make a lot more money.
> 
> She finally married a guy with retirement benefits.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It may happen all the time with shallow materialistic people but imo not with people of solid morals and deep character. Grid's right...gross.


----------



## RoseAglow

Evinrude58 said:


> What you're saying makes a lot of sense---/"


I completely edited you post here, haha, but thank you. I think it does make sense, and IME it fits a majority of adultry cases, read across TAM, LS, and MB.



> if he could really "attack the affair" and she actually lived him.


I am assuming that have the same rumbles with autocorrect as I do, and you meant "loved" instead of "lived."

I am not sure what he can or can't do to attack the affair; I haven't read enough of the thread what more, if anything, can be done. From his post on this/last page, it sounds like his kids don't know. If not, that is among the most powerful weapon he has against the affair. The kids should know. It is better for them, they realize that they really are not to blame. And there is little more powerful than a WS's child asking them to stop the affair, stop talking to that man in front of them, etc. Their lives are affected, even more than Grids, by what their moms affair.

As far as her loving him? Of course she doesn't love him, not at this time. This is just normal wayward/addict babble. Every addict "hates" you when you're in their way. Every single one

I don't want Grid to take it personally, as hard as that is to do. And I want him to know that it is "normal" when it comes to infidelity.



> You are giving him hope that his wife might in 2 years quit her affair partner.


I am telling him the truth. It is demonstrated time again on TAM and other boards, and it's espoused by nearly every infidelity specialist. 

No one knows for certain whether or not her affair will still be going on in two years, but strictly by the odds, any given affair is likely to be dead with that timepoint. I think the odds are very high, for her particular affair with a guy who has no real potential to support her and her kids, that it will die quickly.



> It's more likely in two years she will move in to yet another man.


We agree on this point. He can affect this outcome though, whether by removing himself as a potential partner via divorce and a new, different relationship, or by being an attractive potential mate once the affair is dead and she's woken up. That's for another post.



> This is a terrible thing to get him to second guess himself when it's obvious he has made the right decision.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't understand why it's terrible for him to have a different perspective. I am not trying to get him to second guess himself. I want him to have the information. 

He has every right to decide to divorce. He may not want to deal with her at all. He may decide that he would rather start with someone new, someone who hasn't caused him the pain that wife has inflicted. There are any number of reasons why someone would choose to divorce, it's a rational decision that can be made, even within the framework I offered.

In two years, just like a whole lot of BSs on this site, he is very likely to see that his wife is not with her current OM. Many on TAM see it with their own WSs, and conclude that they made the right decision, they have moved on. And I am not challenging their perspective. I am just adding to it: their WS followed the typical path.


----------



## lifeistooshort

bfree said:


> It may happen all the time with shallow materialistic people but imo not with people of solid morals and deep character. Grid's right...gross.


Didn't dispute that it was gross, I know I am not for sale. Just saying that it's common.


----------



## tech-novelist

gridcom said:


> Gross to think she'll need to size men up in part by their financial situation


That's very important to many women.


----------



## ButtPunch

lifeistooshort said:


> Didn't dispute that it was gross, I know I am not for sale. Just saying that it's common.


Money boosts a mans sex rank. No doubt about that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## RoseAglow

Grid, my long post, and my overall perspective, is based on many years now of reading about infidelity and my own up-close-and-personal experience with addiction. 

There are plenty of legitimate reasons on why you'd choose to divorce. There are reasons why you might decide to keep trying. It is a deeply personal decision, and you'll probably cycle around many times. That's very normal, even after you make your decision (at least it was for me). 

In the end, you have to make the best choice for you. I said above that I don't challenge anyone who made the decision to move on, and I really don't. I had to make my decision, and it was the right decision for me, and it would have been the right decision, regardless of his ability to stay sober after I left. I am at peace with my decision. I got a hell of an education in addiction, and I know that I gave it my very best. It is possible to divorce and still be able to look at yourself in the mirror, knowing that you gave it your all, even if her affair breaks up later on. My goal is to help you make an informed decision.

In either case, there's another important slogan that always helped me: "In case of emergency, put your own oxygen mask on before you try to help others". 

You've lawyered up, and that's important. Make sure that you are protected to the highest degree possible. 

You have your drums, your girls, TAM, and hopefully some real life support as well. I think that overall the affair's been exposed? So hopefully you have friends and family who support you.

And I also think it is very important for you to stay calm and collected. Regardless of whether you're staying or going, for your own personal growth, it is far better to stay in control. Even if you can't or don't choose to be loving, it is best to try to be kind. I used to think of my addicted guy as having a form of dementia (and it actually isn't that far off!). This helped me view him as sick and it helped me to detach from whatever nonsense he was spewing at the time. I was able to be kind, even when he didn't "deserve" it. And you know, it pissed him right off sometimes, too. But it was for me, not for him.

Among the very best gifts I got out of the whole awful experience: I realized that I really had what it takes to be a good partner. I can hang in there and love someone, even when they aren't loveable, and independently of how they were treating me. I didn't stick around and let him abuse me or anything, and I promise you that I am not a doormat. But, once I got it together, I was able to be present and kind. I realized that my reactions were not dependent on anyone other than me. At any given time, I chose how to react, based on who I wanted to be. All of these things and more made me a much better, safer mate than I had been previously. I am a much better person, and so much emotionally/mentally stronger, thanks to my experience. 

You are the "lucky" winner of a similar opportunity to experience personal growth in the face of extreme emotional pain. It's the hardest, yet fastest, route. Whether you stay or go, your wife is going to be challenging. She is going to do and/or say things that hurt you. You are going to feel mightily provoked. You can detach and choose to react calmly. You can choose to simply tell her that you're deeply disappointed in her choices and actions. You don't have to blow up at her or punish her. Your detachment will hurt her, but you don't have to be hurtful. Being mean, rude, aggressive does not make you a bigger man; it's actually the opposite. 

You're going to have lots of opportunities to improve yourself in the personal growth area, as long as she's living with you and even after you've separated. I recommend that you make it your personal challenge to yourself; in fact, I think you've already started to do so.
But if you look at each interaction with her as a personal challenge, you have the chance to expedite your growth. 

It doesn't matter how she reacts, or even if she reacts. What matters is how You react. You will always want to be kind. Sometimes maybe firm. You may have to remove yourself to stay calm. You will want to be compassionately honest. You know she's not in her right mind- treat her like you'd treat your sick demented grandmother. You'll listen patiently to her ramble for a bit. Even though she's not emotionally safe for you, you will be safe for her- not a doormat bending over backwards for her, but not threatening or punishing. 

If you can do this, even in the face of her addictive/affair-fueled rage, you will feel like a different person. You will know beyond a shadow of a doubt that your future is bright, and that you will be able to attract a high value partner. It will hurl stabilize your kids as well. It is the best gift you can give yourself.


----------



## happy as a clam

jld said:


> Grid, *I* am with your IC.


Honestly jld, this isn't about YOU. 

grid has made his decision. This is bordering on obsessive.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TeddieG

Bibi1031 said:


> The empty eyes are because she is void of feelings for Grid, she has completely detached emotionally from him. It doesn't mean she is empty inside. Do not make that grave mistake. I did when I saw midlife crisis X's eyes. The only time his eyes showed emotion towards me was when he was angry and resentful towards me because he was stuck in a life that was prohibiting him from being with OW. When he wasn't angry or resentful at me, the shark eyes appeared. Those are scary as hell to witness. It's a window into just how far gone they are from us.
> 
> This more than likely means she is gone beyond hope Grid. She will never regret leaving You. If she loved you at one point, she has buried that way too deep.
> 
> Move on please, if she ever regrets her decision, you will not be privy to that.
> 
> Take it from one shark eye receiver to another. Your marriage IS dead to her!
> 
> Bibi


I agree with Bibi, but my h's eyes were shark eyes because he WAS dead inside. He told me he felt dead inside. He told me that OW and shagging her didn't solve his problem. He told me that if he couldn't make love to a woman he didn't want to live, and that the little blue pills were no longer helping him get it up for the OW. 

But no matter what else, OUR marriage and OUR relationship was dead to him. All the times I thought he was trying to get back to me because he loved me, he was trying to get back to feeling something, anything, for ANYbody. And the only time I ever saw anything from him was when he was facing surgery and thought he was going to die, or when, as Bibi shares, being here was slowing him down from getting back to his OW, his addiction, like an addict needing a fix.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

RoseAglo TLDR


----------



## gridcom

RoseAglow said:


> And I also think it is very important for you to stay calm and collected. Regardless of whether you're staying or going, for your own personal growth, it is far better to stay in control. Even if you can't or don't choose to be loving, it is best to try to be kind. I used to think of my addicted guy as having a form of dementia (and it actually isn't that far off!). This helped me view him as sick and it helped me to detach from whatever nonsense he was spewing at the time. I was able to be kind, even when he didn't "deserve" it. And you know, it pissed him right off sometimes, too. But it was for me, not for him.
> 
> Whether you stay or go, your wife is going to be challenging. She is going to do and/or say things that hurt you. You are going to feel mightily provoked. You can detach and choose to react calmly. You can choose to simply tell her that you're deeply disappointed in her choices and actions. You don't have to blow up at her or punish her. Your detachment will hurt her, but you don't have to be hurtful. Being mean, rude, aggressive does not make you a bigger man; it's actually the opposite.


Lots of good stuff here. A really excellent post. Really appreciate you (and everyone) taking the time. I quoted the best stuff above.

Do you have you story here on TAM, out of curiosity?


----------



## gridcom

RoseAglow said:


> Grid, my long post, and my overall perspective, is based on many years now of reading about infidelity and my own up-close-and-personal experience with addiction.
> 
> There are plenty of legitimate reasons on why you'd choose to divorce. There are reasons why you might decide to keep trying. It is a deeply personal decision, and you'll probably cycle around many times. That's very normal, even after you make your decision (at least it was for me).
> 
> In the end, you have to make the best choice for you. I said above that I don't challenge anyone who made the decision to move on, and I really don't. I had to make my decision, and it was the right decision for me, and it would have been the right decision, regardless of his ability to stay sober after I left. I am at peace with my decision. I got a hell of an education in addiction, and I know that I gave it my very best. It is possible to divorce and still be able to look at yourself in the mirror, knowing that you gave it your all, even if her affair breaks up later on. My goal is to help you make an informed decision.
> 
> In either case, there's another important slogan that always helped me: "In case of emergency, put your own oxygen mask on before you try to help others".
> 
> You've lawyered up, and that's important. Make sure that you are protected to the highest degree possible.
> 
> You have your drums, your girls, TAM, and hopefully some real life support as well. I think that overall the affair's been exposed? So hopefully you have friends and family who support you.
> 
> And I also think it is very important for you to stay calm and collected. Regardless of whether you're staying or going, for your own personal growth, it is far better to stay in control. Even if you can't or don't choose to be loving, it is best to try to be kind. I used to think of my addicted guy as having a form of dementia (and it actually isn't that far off!). This helped me view him as sick and it helped me to detach from whatever nonsense he was spewing at the time. I was able to be kind, even when he didn't "deserve" it. And you know, it pissed him right off sometimes, too. But it was for me, not for him.
> 
> Among the very best gifts I got out of the whole awful experience: I realized that I really had what it takes to be a good partner. I can hang in there and love someone, even when they aren't loveable, and independently of how they were treating me. I didn't stick around and let him abuse me or anything, and I promise you that I am not a doormat. But, once I got it together, I was able to be present and kind. I realized that my reactions were not dependent on anyone other than me. At any given time, I chose how to react, based on who I wanted to be. All of these things and more made me a much better, safer mate than I had been previously. I am a much better person, and so much emotionally/mentally stronger, thanks to my experience.
> 
> You are the "lucky" winner of a similar opportunity to experience personal growth in the face of extreme emotional pain. It's the hardest, yet fastest, route. Whether you stay or go, your wife is going to be challenging. She is going to do and/or say things that hurt you. You are going to feel mightily provoked. You can detach and choose to react calmly. You can choose to simply tell her that you're deeply disappointed in her choices and actions. You don't have to blow up at her or punish her. Your detachment will hurt her, but you don't have to be hurtful. Being mean, rude, aggressive does not make you a bigger man; it's actually the opposite.
> 
> You're going to have lots of opportunities to improve yourself in the personal growth area, as long as she's living with you and even after you've separated. I recommend that you make it your personal challenge to yourself; in fact, I think you've already started to do so.
> But if you look at each interaction with her as a personal challenge, you have the chance to expedite your growth.
> 
> It doesn't matter how she reacts, or even if she reacts. What matters is how You react. You will always want to be kind. Sometimes maybe firm. You may have to remove yourself to stay calm. You will want to be compassionately honest. You know she's not in her right mind- treat her like you'd treat your sick demented grandmother. You'll listen patiently to her ramble for a bit. Even though she's not emotionally safe for you, you will be safe for her- not a doormat bending over backwards for her, but not threatening or punishing.
> 
> If you can do this, even in the face of her addictive/affair-fueled rage, you will feel like a different person. You will know beyond a shadow of a doubt that your future is bright, and that you will be able to attract a high value partner. It will hurl stabilize your kids as well. It is the best gift you can give yourself.


Also, both my kids know about the affair. I dont know if my 5 yr old can comprehend. My 10 year old knows pretty much everything. Today, I was rummaging through her ipad and was looking at her texts to my wife and I saw a series of texts from my daughter to my wife that were, basically calling my wife out on her behavior. This is such HEAVY stuff for my wife to read , no? I didnt even know that text exchange happened. It must have rolled right off my wife's back, having your first born 10 year old, about to go into Young Woman-hood aged, girl tell you point blank that you have failed her and let her down. In writing.

I was not happy to read it.


----------



## ButtPunch

Do the parents and friends know she cheated.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

RoseAglow,

I agree with your description of the psychopharmacological basis for affair behavior. In fact, it is just human mating behavior. Culture, law and religion have conspired to encourage monogamy and discourage pleasure seeking in new partners. The reasons are simple. Evolution favors the nuclear family. No one here suggests that Grid should wait in the shadow with a stone to remove OM from the selfish gene competition. We have civilization to guide us.

re: saving the marriage
Marriage is merely a contract between a couple that is easy to enter but difficult to quit. Law makers have crafted all the family law legislation to make divorce a hassle. The basic instincts of a divorcing couple are thwarted. The kids don't belong to the mother and fathers cannot cut and run. The durability of restored marriages, i.e., remarriage after divorce, is probably better than second or third marriages to other people.

Whatever made Grid and Tomato Soup fall in love the first time could happen again. The neural pathways in their brains are probably in someway hardwired for it too happen. But there is no point in reconciliation without trust. Right now TS is an addict and Grid has to stop enabling her addiction but without rancor and hostility. Easier said that done. But in this respect JLD is a good advisor. The more gentlemanly Grid is in the divorce process, the better it will be. If there are conflicts, he should let his lawyer handle it. If Grid's wife has to hate someone, let it be Grid's lawyer.

On the plane across the Atlantic I watched a documentary about Amy Winehouse. Drug use was killing her. She got clean in rehab but her husband got her back into drugs because without the shared addiction their relationship wasn't so compelling. It was suicidal for her to enable his lifestyle.


----------



## LongWalk

ButtPunch said:


> Do the parents and friends know she cheated.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


They know


----------



## LongWalk

Now stuck on No Means No


----------



## gridcom

ButtPunch said:


> Do the parents and friends know she cheated.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, I told her dad early on, and her sister. Hoping they would have some stroke in helping her pull her head out of her ass. Her sister was beside herself when she found out, and tried her best to help the situation until recently when she essentially just gave up the battle. When her niece found out, she sent my wife flowers with a note that said "Don't Be An A$$hole". Until last week, that little note card was on our fridge.

She's basically told everybody else, herself. At least in terms of her friends and family.


----------



## gridcom

LongWalk said:


> Now stuck on No Means No


Best kept secret of my musical life. Listen to the album WRONG. That is their peak. Amazing drumming and amazing songs

Not on Spotify. have to listen on Youtube


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> She's basically told everybody else, herself. At least in terms of her friends and family.


I'm certain with her we drifted apart spin on it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## gridcom

ButtPunch said:


> I'm certain with her we drifted apart spin on it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I dont think so. Because we actually never drifted apart, really. Not even after the affair. I'm sure her spin is that I am "mean" and she has decided she doesn't want to put up with it. From what I have been told, she seriously underscores the AP in her conversations, like he's not part of the equation here, just an accessory. She freely admits that her feelings for me are corrupted by her feelings for him. *She really does admit that freely. *Which is just a giant pain in the a$$, or as my IC says, simply her being "provocative".

But I doubt that is being said to her friends and family. I'm quite sure her feelings for him, how intense they are, how much they corrupt our relationship, is underplayed.

I have no doubt.


----------



## Chuck71

gridcom said:


> I'll say this. Maybe I shouldn't have moved back in here. I am full of rage. I am full of anger. I see my wife on the phone laughing and I am just OVERCOME with emotions. I just hate that she can do what she did and be OK in her own skin.
> 
> I've never given any thought to taking pills, but maybe I should see a doctor for this and get some medication. My soul is black, my heart is like 1000 drops of blood red paint around my feet.


I'm playing catch-up, my XW did the phone thing to me in December '12..... I was a basket case

January '13.... I stepped into the light...... she began reaching for my attention

February '13.... XW was so nervous and scared she had bumps all over her face, mouth.

Me.... I talked through her, not to her. "I don't know what I'm doing from day to day"

Dunno if she heard me or not, didn't matter, but I replied "That's not my fvcking problem anymore."

The compare / contrasts from December '12 to February '13.... freaking amazing.


----------



## turnera

LongWalk said:


> Grid,
> 
> Who are your favorite drummers?


Sandy Nelson!


----------



## Chuck71

gridcom said:


> We only have on bathroom, the house is small. 3 bedrooms right next to each other. There is an upstairs that I use for an office. No bed and no heat up here, though.


Move her cold blooded arse up there


----------



## turnera

grid, there are a lot of ways to nudge things along toward what you want. In your case, given both a WAW and a WW, I suggest, based on MY experience over the past 15 years, that psychologically speaking, the only way she's going to even realize you're in the room/town/world is if she sees you out enjoying your life WITHOUT her. Let her see you as she once saw you - a fun-loving, confident, giving, interesting man. If I had to guess, she WILL end her affair. In another year or three, because in all my years, I have only seen a woman leave for another man and have that man be an ACTUAL good guy worth leaving for _two times_, rather than a POS looking for more tail/ego stroking/bragging rights. All the rest...they finally woke up and gave up the fight to keep that unicorns and rainbows relationship alive (and save their bruised ego).

And THEN, they look around again to see who ELSE they can latch on to, and the first place they always look is their ex. Even after all the horrible things they said about their ex in their addiction-addled brain, they still KNOW their ex is a good guy and good marriage material.

And THEN, you just might have a chance to say 'well, I may be interested, but I have new ground rules. I'm willing to look at my stuff, but you can damn well be sure I'll be expecting you to look at yours first, if you want me to consider you. And know that, at this time, the ONLY reason I'm willing to consider you is so the kids have an intact family again.

Of course, in the meantime, you're starting a new life, getting that old guy back, getting therapy, maturing, becoming an ever BETTER catch for some woman. Trust me, your ex will see it. And regret what she did. Now, whether that relationship will be worth resurrecting, only time will tell. And whether she will be willing to own up to what she did...another big question. But, if she does - and psychologically speaking, this almost never happens when you are throwing yourself at her because...well, why should she? She already HAS you.

The benefit to this path is that it gives both of you a chance to mature and improve, and that it gives YOU time to be away from the toxic environment and be alone and think long and hard about what it is you really want. And of course, as others have opined, it's possible that you will see that what is out there is MUCH better than the marriage you had. 

As long as you are staying in your kids' lives on a daily basis (aren't electronics wonderful?), they are going to adapt to the life that half of the kids in America already know. So don't let that be your deciding factor. I've seen lots of kids grow up well in divorced families, when the parents make it their number one priority. And honestly, in MY opinion, you walking away right now and letting her see you enjoying your new life without her is the single best chance your marriage has of surviving (or reviving).


----------



## tom67

turnera said:


> grid, there are a lot of ways to nudge things along toward what you want. In your case, given both a WAW and a WW, I suggest, based on MY experience over the past 15 years, that psychologically speaking, the only way she's going to even realize you're in the room/town/world is if she sees you out enjoying your life WITHOUT her. Let her see you as she once saw you - a fun-loving, confident, giving, interesting man. If I had to guess, she WILL end her affair. In another year or three, because in all my years, I have only seen a woman leave for another man and have that man be an ACTUAL good guy worth leaving for _two times_, rather than a POS looking for more tail/ego stroking/bragging rights. All the rest...they finally woke up and gave up the fight to keep that unicorns and rainbows relationship alive (and save their bruised ego).
> 
> And THEN, they look around again to see who ELSE they can latch on to, and the first place they always look is their ex. Even after all the horrible things they said about their ex in their addiction-addled brain, they still KNOW their ex is a good guy and good marriage material.
> 
> And THEN, you just might have a chance to say 'well, I may be interested, but I have new ground rules. I'm willing to look at my stuff, but you can damn well be sure I'll be expecting you to look at yours first, if you want me to consider you. And know that, at this time, the ONLY reason I'm willing to consider you is so the kids have an intact family again.
> 
> Of course, in the meantime, you're starting a new life, getting that old guy back, getting therapy, maturing, becoming an ever BETTER catch for some woman. Trust me, your ex will see it. And regret what she did. Now, whether that relationship will be worth resurrecting, only time will tell. And whether she will be willing to own up to what she did...another big question. But, if she does - and psychologically speaking, this almost never happens when you are throwing yourself at her because...well, why should she? She already HAS you.
> 
> The benefit to this path is that it gives both of you a chance to mature and improve, and that it gives YOU time to be away from the toxic environment and be alone and think long and hard about what it is you really want. And of course, as others have opined, it's possible that you will see that what is out there is MUCH better than the marriage you had.
> 
> As long as you are staying in your kids' lives on a daily basis (aren't electronics wonderful?), they are going to adapt to the life that half of the kids in America already know. So don't let that be your deciding factor. I've seen lots of kids grow up well in divorced families, when the parents make it their number one priority. And honestly, in MY opinion, you walking away right now and letting her see you enjoying your new life without her is the single best chance your marriage has of surviving (or reviving).


:iagree::iagree:
We have been saying this.
Like Tommy Sotomayor ends a lot of his youtube vids with the song "Same as it ever was."


----------



## LongWalk

I agree with Turnera.

One of the most basic insights on TAM, and it gets pounded into people over and over, is to watch what they do and pay less heed to what they say. Your wife has not moved in with OM even though she has filed for divorce. In the view of many but not all, once you file for divorce you're single. Others add that a couple must separate before they should start sleeping with others. Your wife has actually refused to go and put a tooth brush in OM's bathroom. Her great love is a wet cardboard box that she doesn't want to lift. She's not of the age that making love on tomato soup is so jolly. This is an actual decision by her to hold off stepping out. 

Her declared intent to walk away is also just talk, so far.

You might just do a modified 180 and watch what she does. If she pushes the divorce, you simply waltz with the music. But when it comes to separating why not wait for her proposal. Your offer to let her have the house is a big mistake because it will allow her to have you in spirit. You will be everywhere in the house as a presence while the real you will be in the apartment elsewhere. You will have to do all the work to set up a new household. Why should she escape this consequence?

Addicts must face consequences.

No Means No reminds me of Per Ubu


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Something irritated me so, I just started going back through your thread. Grid you were in your own fog, more so than your wife. Man oh man, fog or not, addiction or not, your wife is decisive to a fault.


----------



## just got it 55

Frostine

Crazy Town 

Queen Lizard

Window Cork

And Now Tomato Soup

I love It

55


----------



## gridcom

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Something irritated me so, I just started going back through your thread. Grid you were in your own fog, more so than your wife. Man oh man, fog or not, addiction or not, your wife is decisive to a fault.


Yes. This is undeniable. She walked in one night and said "Here's our dead marriage." Blindsided. Cold ****ed. 5 months to the day this coming Monday. Addiction or not, Fog or not, I'll forever wonder how you can go about dealing with marital problems this way. Especially with young kids. 

My reaction the night she told me about this startled her. I don't think she expected it. For me to stand up and say "This is going to be the best thing that ever happened to us." and then to follow up it up with this mighty effort. Mighty but flawed. My anger still rearing it's ugly head at a time when I needed to squash it overnight. I gobbled up every bit of literature I could, read every website and looked at it from every angle, a stack of books in our bedroom. I went to church and still go, I did IC, convinced her to do MC, went to Retrouvaille, dedicated my mind and consumed myself with improving myself. A message board thread for the ages. 3500 some odd comments. Epic. This story isn't even uncommon, at all. People get divorced every day. What's with me that I am taking it so hard?

And while it has been stated that she did a few things "for me", in her heart she never gave an inch. And I can not understand it. She has been barraged by me (wrong, I know) and everybody else including her own daughter, and she is stubborn to the core. Hardcore, man.

My birthday is tomorrow and it is weighing heavy on me. I'm not at all a celebratory guy. I prefer to let them pass quietly. 

While the results don't show it, I do feel like I did a lot right. That blows. 

I will be haunted by the fact that I didn't get a "final warning" before the death bells, at least until I can get out from underneath this dark cloud.

I will get there, and no this isn't a post saying I'm going to "keep trying". There is no more I can do. It's abundantly clear that the best way for me to save my marriage is to truly let it go.

I'm going to drink some spiked egg nog and watch a movie with my mother who came down for my birthday tomorrow.

I'm going to try and smile some tomorrow, enjoy my kids, etc

Thanks all for your words and thanks for understanding.


----------



## tom67

Grid happy birthday:smile2:


----------



## ButtPunch

just got it 55 said:


> Frostine
> 
> Crazy Town
> 
> Queen Lizard
> 
> Window Cork
> 
> And Now Tomato Soup
> 
> I love It
> 
> 55


QL will always be my favorite. Her epic rants on ReGroup
were solid gold.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

ButtPunch said:


> QL will always be my favorite. Her epic rants on ReGroup
> were solid gold.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


As long as Grid is not a balding show stealer, he will be just fine...



Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## bfree

Happy birthday grid.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

gridcom said:


> People get divorced every day. What's with me that I am taking it so hard?


You were given a ton of false hope. In your fog, you drank it like kool-aide not realizing it was a cup of pain. You answered your own question.



gridcom said:


> Blindsided. Cold ****ed.


and 


> My reaction the night she told me about this startled her. I don't think she expected it. For me to stand up and say "This is going to be the best thing that ever happened to us." and then to follow up it up with this mighty effort. Mighty but flawed. My anger still rearing it's ugly head at a time when I needed to squash it overnight. I gobbled up every bit of literature I could, read every website and looked at it from every angle, a stack of books in our bedroom. I went to church and still go, I did IC, convinced her to do MC, went to Retrouvaille, dedicated my mind and consumed myself with improving myself.


It was counter intuitive for you to let your marriage fail. So, you did everything to fix it while not removing the other main problem the OM. Only a curmudgeon wouldn't take it hard after five months of hard work.


Enjoy your birthday and take a break from TAM.


----------



## bandit.45

lifeistooshort said:


> Happens all the time with people who can't support themselves..... first priority is basic necessities. My hb's ex wife talked about how she had to find a guy with retirement money because she didn't appropriately plan and now she has no money. Drives her nuts that I'm younger, in better shape, and make a lot more money.
> 
> She finally married a guy with retirement benefits.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I wouldn't be so sure. 

Don't get too smarmy regarding your retirement. Go back and review the financial history of the US over the last 20 years. You don't think another market crash or Enron scandal won't happen again? You think your savings is safe? 

There were a lot of once-proud, intelligent, proactive people who saved up for retirement for decades, and lost everything overnight due to the misdeeds of a few evil bankers and financial institutions. Those people are are living in camp trailers now. 

Don't think it won't happen again.


----------



## Lilac23

jld said:


> Then she needs you more than ever.
> 
> Oh, grid, please do not give up on her. Or on your family.
> 
> This is just breaking my heart, grid. And it just does not have to be happening.


JLD, I think it's harmful to suggest to Grid that he is 'giving up on his family' by going through with a separation or divorce at this point. Are you trying to use his greatest fear against him in order to serve your own purpose or theory of what his wife 'may' be doing or feeling? He has not given up on his family, he has stayed longer than many men would have with a wife who cheated on them and displayed ambivalence or outright rejection at the mention of possible reconciliation. I have no idea what your training or background is, as I typically skip through your posts, but we have ideals in ethical medical practice that involve doing no harm and self determination of the person. 

By throwing around terms like 'giving up on his family' it appears you are trying to manipulate him into staying in an unhealthy environment. Are you trying to guilt him into taking your advice? Btw, he didn't choose the divorce, she did. All he's doing is not allowing himself to be treated like utter s**t, which is actually very healthy! His children will look up to him for it. How will you learn how to respect yourself and have boundaries if you don't learn if from your parents? If he stayed in this environment, it could teach his children that tolerating cheating is ok and they could be cheaters in adulthood or accept this from a future partner. His wife may not be herself right now or maybe she hasn't been herself for the last few years and she's finally 'coming out' with her true colors now. Either way, kicking a dog when he's down serves no purpose, does it? It was not his act and it was not his choice. 

The Bible does frown on divorce, however, it does allow for it in cases of adultery. My guess would be God understands how it can destroy a family and sometimes it is better to be apart when couples cannot overcome the issue. Instead of focusing on the children and marriage, spouses could feel like they have to police the other partner, not to mention the anger and hurt it causes.


----------



## TeddieG

Happy birthday, Grid! One of the pieces of Rose's posts that stood out to me is what she learned about herself, how she WAS a good partner and could stand by her partner when things were good or when they weren't (with the exception of abuse and infidelity of course). That part of me was tested and I passed with flying colors, and so have you, and it will stand you in good stead whether you reconcile with Tomato Soup or move on to another relationship. 

And then there's this: "What's with me that I am taking it so hard?"

I asked myself that question many times, and even some of the women I know whose spouses divorced them in the middle or at the end of their MLC and my friends stood by them, as Rose describes, lost a little patience with me (I know now they were relieved to have bastards gone and out of their lives, and I even know one man who left a support group when the WW finally went through with the divorce she talked about for over a year). One, I saw divorce as symbolic. While h was in the initial stages of coming clean about his depression and his infidelity, and even well into it, I continued to believe it was something we could work through, if he could get well. Two, I feared what my life would look like, financially, and the hit to my standard of living after we had stopped moving around 15 years ago and built some financial stability. And three, I couldn't imagine abandoning him when he was so mentally ill and his physical issues were advancing and there were concerns for me about his physical condition. And my concerns seemed in the end to have been well founded, after his heart attack last April and the diagnosis of heart blockage and a good-sized aneurysm. I thought we could work through anything. 

Just as h became adamant he wanted to marry the OW (which he has done, without bothering to take the time to finish our divorce, so he's not truly legally married to her and probably knows it, which just demonstrated to me that I was right ALL along and the decent stand-up guy I thought he was had truly gone crazy and lost his mind; and it also, upon some reflection, seems to suggest something to me about his disregard for marriage as an institution in general), I came to accept what someone has already voiced here (Mrs. GP, I think) that it was time to let go and let him have the dignity to fail (or not - if he and the OW end up happy, I'm happy for him, but since they're both addicted, co-dependent, narcissistic, and drunks, it could go either way). 

Two or three years ago h brought up the divorce, and I said, fine, if you want it, do it, but DO KNOW that if you do, I'm turning off the porchlight and the closing the door, and be SURE you're done and don't want to or expect to come back to me, for an indefinite period, and I don't know how long "indefinite" will be. I knew THEN that despite everything, despite reading the tea leaves and seeing him struggle and try to come home only to go back to his addiction, if he filed for divorce and went through with it, it was all over but the shouting for me. He was rejecting my willingness to work on anything we faced, and to run from it rather than work on it together. He rejected the good partner that I had been and was prepared to continue to be. 

Ironically, the part that has been the hardest has been the process of the divorce; his filing didn't bother me, but this wasn't our first rodeo, with him filing formally at least once and then canceling, but attempting to file prior to that. But waiting for the proposal from his attorney, responding to my lawyer and watching her respond and watching h's attorney dither some more; if he wanted the damn divorce I was not going to stand in his way, but I wasn't going to be hosed either . . . in the end, I am relieved and released from the fact that I am ready, willing, and able to be a good partner, a committed partner, and I am released from feeling that I did not bring those values to his issues. 

There are some days I wake up SO relieved that he and his issues are not the center of his world in MY space, and that I have to put up with his navel-gazing and inexorable poor-me's, while he sits on the couch and surfs his pad for sad songs and doesn't get up off his arse and get real help. There are some days I wake up and cry because I miss the old him. There are some days I get up and I cry because I don't now what the hell happened to him and why the dementia and the health issues and the bi polar advanced so quickly so suddenly and everything unraveled as a result. Why him, I often ask? And the answer I get is, why not? Isn't that life? 

What I got, as I leave this relationship with him formally, officially, and legally, was the reassurance that I achieved what I set out to. I knew going in when he announced ILYBINILWY that the outcome of our marriage and relationship was a crapshoot (actually I pretty much knew it was probably over); my experience with him, despite my beliefs that my vows were forever, didn't protect and preserve me from the randomness of being one of the half of the population whose spouse decides to divorce, even though I hoped and prayed we would make it; so in the end, I got what I promised myself I would do at the outset of all his troubles - I would do whatever I did, I would make my choices even though I had limited information and no crystal ball, to have the fewest regrets possible. I've achieved that. 

You will learn a lot about yourself that is positive when the answer comes as to why you're taking this so hard. You can regret your wife's choices, but you don't have to regret yours.


----------



## lifeistooshort

bandit.45 said:


> I wouldn't be so sure.
> 
> Don't get too smarmy regarding your retirement. Go back and review the financial history of the US over the last 20 years. You don't think another market crash or Enron scandal won't happen again? You think your savings is safe?
> 
> There were a lot of once-proud, intelligent, proactive people who saved up for retirement for decades, and lost everything overnight due to the misdeeds of a few evil bankers and financial institutions. Those people are are living in camp trailers now.
> 
> Don't think it won't happen again.


Nope, I know very well that the economy is unstable. Comes with the territory when working as an actuary. ...my hb's own retirement funds have definitely taken a hit.

It's very easy to cook books and manipulate the market if you've got some money. ....companies and rich people do it all the time. 

The people at enron got wiped out because they put all of their funds back into enron. That's just plain stupid.

I'm saying that SHE didn't plan appropriately because I know it to be true. She was raised to think it was a man's job to provide for her and that didn't work out so now she finds herself getting older with nothing.

And she's been living beyond her means for years and used CS to partially subsidize it, so when CS ended it was a big hit.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ButtPunch

Grid

Go have some fun today even if it kills you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## just got it 55

gridcom said:


> Yes. This is undeniable. She walked in one night and said "Here's our dead marriage." Blindsided. Cold ****ed. 5 months to the day this coming Monday. Addiction or not, Fog or not, I'll forever wonder how you can go about dealing with marital problems this way. Especially with young kids.
> 
> My reaction the night she told me about this startled her. I don't think she expected it. For me to stand up and say "This is going to be the best thing that ever happened to us." and then to follow up it up with this mighty effort. Mighty but flawed. My anger still rearing it's ugly head at a time when I needed to squash it overnight. I gobbled up every bit of literature I could, read every website and looked at it from every angle, a stack of books in our bedroom. I went to church and still go, I did IC, convinced her to do MC, went to Retrouvaille, dedicated my mind and consumed myself with improving myself. A message board thread for the ages. 3500 some odd comments. Epic. This story isn't even uncommon, at all. People get divorced every day. What's with me that I am taking it so hard?
> 
> And while it has been stated that she did a few things "for me", in her heart she never gave an inch. And I can not understand it. She has been barraged by me (wrong, I know) and everybody else including her own daughter, and she is stubborn to the core. Hardcore, man.
> 
> My birthday is tomorrow and it is weighing heavy on me. I'm not at all a celebratory guy. I prefer to let them pass quietly.
> 
> While the results don't show it, I do feel like I did a lot right. That blows.
> 
> I will be haunted by the fact that I didn't get a "final warning" before the death bells, at least until I can get out from underneath this dark cloud.
> 
> *I will get there, and no this isn't a post saying I'm going to "keep trying". There is no more I can do. It's abundantly clear that the best way for me to save my marriage is to truly let it go.*
> 
> I'm going to drink some spiked egg nog and watch a movie with my mother who came down for my birthday tomorrow.
> 
> I'm going to try and smile some tomorrow, enjoy my kids, etc
> 
> Thanks all for your words and thanks for understanding.


Acceptance Grid the very beggining of you healing and new life.

With or without TS

55


----------



## TeddieG

just got it 55 said:


> Acceptance Grid the very beggining of you healing and new life.
> 
> With or without TS
> 
> 55


THIS! :iagree:


----------



## lifeistooshort

ButtPunch said:


> Grid
> 
> Go have some fun today even if it kills you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree. Have some fun darnit!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

lifeistooshort said:


> Nope, I know very well that the economy is unstable. Comes with the territory when working as an actuary. ...my hb's own retirement funds have definitely taken a hit.
> 
> It's very easy to cook books and manipulate the market if you've got some money. ....companies and rich people do it all the time.
> 
> The people at enron got wiped out because they put all of their funds back into enron. That's just plain stupid.
> 
> I'm saying that SHE didn't plan appropriately because I know it to be true. She was raised to think it was a man's job to provide for her and that didn't work out so now she finds herself getting older with nothing.
> 
> And she's been living beyond her means for years and used CS to partially subsidize it, so when CS ended it was a big hit.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Nice to see you and I finally agree on something.


----------



## bandit.45

Grid you are doing well my man. The pain you feel is the same we all went through. I had days so dark I came close to eating a bullet many times. But you have to keep moving, keep breathing, one day at a time. You will get your life back again, and it will be a better one.


----------



## Bibi1031

May you have a great day full of positive memories on this your day Grid.


----------



## tech-novelist

bandit.45 said:


> I wouldn't be so sure.
> 
> Don't get too smarmy regarding your retirement. Go back and review the financial history of the US over the last 20 years. You don't think another market crash or Enron scandal won't happen again? You think your savings is safe?
> 
> There were a lot of once-proud, intelligent, proactive people who saved up for retirement for decades, and lost everything overnight due to the misdeeds of a few evil bankers and financial institutions. Those people are are living in camp trailers now.
> 
> Don't think it won't happen again.


Diversification can help a great deal with that.

IOW, don't put all your eggs in one basket.

For me to "lose everything overnight" would take WW III or another Chicxulub, but then we'd have a lot more to worry about than retirement...


----------



## lifeistooshort

bandit.45 said:


> Nice to see you and I finally agree on something.


We agree on lots of things. .... like people from AZ have strong opinions and don't like to take any crap 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

lifeistooshort said:


> We agree on lots of things. .... like people from AZ have strong opinions and don't like to take any crap
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Very, very true....

Much to our detriment sometimes.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Sitting in church (not my church but another in town) watching a 90 minute performance of Handel's Messiah with strings, brass and many vocalists.

My S17 is playing trumpet.

This is the kind of thing that is the payoff for your parenting. Proud dad here.

Happy birthday Grid. Music - make sure it's part of your girls' lives. Singing and / or playing. It enriches their lives in ways you can't imagine.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Sitting in church (not my church but another in town) watching a 90 minute performance of Handel's Messiah with strings, brass and many vocalists.

My S17 is playing trumpet.

This is the kind of thing that is the payoff for your parenting. Proud dad here.

Happy birthday Grid. Music - make sure it's part of your girls' lives. Singing and / or playing. It enriches their lives in ways you can't imagine.


----------



## syhoybenden

technovelist said:


> Diversification can help a great deal with that.
> 
> IOW, don't put all your eggs in one basket.
> 
> For me to "lose everything overnight" would take WW III or another Chicxulub, but then we'd have a lot more to worry about than retirement...



Ever hear of hyperinflation?

Ask the Weimar republic Germans about it.


----------



## tech-novelist

syhoybenden said:


> Ever hear of hyperinflation?
> 
> Ask the Weimar republic Germans about it.


Yes, which is exactly why I have diversified among currencies as well.


----------



## Thundarr

bandit.45 said:


> Grid you are doing well my man. The pain you feel is the same we all went through. I had days so dark I came close to eating a bullet many times. But you have to keep moving, keep breathing, one day at a time. You will get your life back again, and it will be a better one.


This is the darn truth Grid. This may seem so horrible that you can't imagine others understanding but you're not alone. A lot of us understand how if feels to have 30 seconds of peace each day. That first 30 seconds in the morning when you wake up and haven't had time to remember your life and what's going on. A lot of us know how it feels to be miserable going through the motions day after day because you don't know what else to do; because there is nothing you can do.

But it gets better. A whole lot better because you've been going through the worst of the worst. Maybe it's already happened but one day you'll wake up and that 30 second mark hits and instead of feeling dread; you'll feel relief and contentment. That's the first day of the rest of your better life. That's the day you wake up a new man, a better man. And trust me, a lot of good women who've been screwed over are looking for that type of man.


----------



## tom67

technovelist said:


> Yes, which is exactly why I have diversified among currencies as well.


Plus tangible assets like storable food if you have $$$ silver and gold ect.


----------



## just got it 55

Grid How was your B day

55


----------



## Observer

She has already gave up on the marriage, the affair is the transition to move on. 

I agree with jld in that, if you can stay, you should. Otherwise you end up regretting it the rest of your life always wondering, "what if"? But reality is this, you may not be able to, like I was not able to. A person has limits on what they can tolerate. In my case, I was going insane...quite literally. Looking back, I wish I was strong enough to say "I know what you are doing but I love you uncondotionally and took a vow to stay with you through good times and bad. You stayed with me for years when I neglected you, I will not leave you." But...I couldn't, I was not strong enough to do that. I'm angry at myself 2 years post D for not being that man and it eates at me. I hope you are able to walk away and not let it eat at you...that's all I'm saying.


----------



## jld

Observer said:


> She has already gave up on the marriage, the affair is the transition to move on.
> 
> I agree with jld in that, if you can stay, you should. Otherwise you end up regretting it the rest of your life always wondering, "what if"? But reality is this, you may not be able to, like I was not able to. A person has limits on what they can tolerate. In my case, I was going insane...quite literally. Looking back, I wish I was strong enough to say "I know what you are doing but I love you uncondotionally and took a vow to stay with you through good times and bad. You stayed with me for years when I neglected you, I will not leave you." But...I couldn't, I was not strong enough to do that. I'm angry at myself 2 years post D for not being that man and it eates at me. I hope you are able to walk away and not let it eat at you...that's all I'm saying.


I respect your honesty, observer.

And grid, I respect the efforts you made, too, to at least listen and consider what I said. The main thing, as observer said, is to be able to live with your conscience. That is true for all of us.

And I hope you had a happy birthday. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cbnero

Adultery is not included in the "bad" you are describing. You should not, and grid should not, ever feel guilt over her poor decisions. Period.

Being a jerk sometimes or not being as great a husband as you could have been is not ending the marriage. Ending the marriage is ending the marriage.

Don't project your lingering feelings of guilt on grid. He is 100% absolved and shouldn't even let self-defeating thoughts like that enter his psyche. He did everything possible. End of story.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Observer said:


> She has already gave up on the marriage, the affair is the transition to move on.
> 
> I agree with jld in that, if you can stay, you should. Otherwise you end up regretting it the rest of your life always wondering, "what if"? But reality is this, you may not be able to, like I was not able to. A person has limits on what they can tolerate. In my case, I was going insane...quite literally. Looking back, I wish I was strong enough to say "I know what you are doing but I love you uncondotionally and took a vow to stay with you through good times and bad. You stayed with me for years when I neglected you, I will not leave you." But...I couldn't, I was not strong enough to do that. I'm angry at myself 2 years post D for not being that man and it eates at me. I hope you are able to walk away and not let it eat at you...that's all I'm saying.


I find it hard to believe it was your fault that your wife chose another man over you. I realize WS use blame shifting as a significant crutch to make their obviously crushing and selfish actions somewhat easier to live with. But don't forget - this was lying and betraying every hour of every day of her affair. That is an ongoing barrage of lies and deceit - and while she lived with you, talked to you, made plans with you...

There is a reason marriages fail after such unbelievable duplicity - but it has nothing to do with you. Most men expect love, admiration and respect from their partners - and an affair states in no uncertain terms that the WS does not have at least two of those critical things. That is not something worth saving, I'm afraid, even if some love and affection remains.

Stop looking inward to create failures on your part to explain your loss. Put it squarely on your WW. Its a good thing you are not the kind of husband that has so little self respect that they will allow themselves to be emotionally raped and cuckolded for the past 2 years. I can't imagine any woman who would want to remain married to such a weak man with such a low self image.

If it helps, go read the active thread by Lonely Husband 42301

He suspected after 5 years of dead-eyed sex and attempts to push him away, came to TAM, and in less than two weeks discovered a year long affair, confronted and left. After a 30 year marriage and a strong commitment to marriage. He is selling his business, house, moving and retiring to start a new life. No less pain, but he is putting the blame where it belongs and moving forward. Please do the same.


----------



## happyman64

Grid

Will you do yourself one favor.

After the D. When you and your kids are doing just fine.

Find a woman. A caring, compassionate woman that does not gave any selfish bones in her body.

A woman that blows your wife away.

Because with that kind of woman you are going to realize what you have been missing in your life. You will understand just what your kids have been missing in their lives.

Just do yourself that one favor.

I did.

And my life has been great due to the time I took to heal. To think. To improve.

Take the time.

And then "Mrs Dead Marriage" is going to look a whole lot uglier in so many ways.

Do it for you.

HM


----------



## TheTruthHurts

ButtPunch said:


> I believe that post was orchestrated by you know who.


I'm missing something ????

But then I do have one poster blocked for my sanity - wonder if it's that one


----------



## TheTruthHurts

ButtPunch said:


> I believe that post was orchestrated by you know who.


I'm missing something ????

But then I do have one poster blocked for my sanity - wonder if it's that one


----------



## 3Xnocharm

TheTruthHurts said:


> My post seems to have gotten lost in the ethers.
> 
> I se the wake cased by JLD but not her posts because I blocked her. I know you really liked hearing from her because she sounded like your WW and you were doing everyithing to change WW and fix her.
> 
> But that's now done. Maybe it's time for you to block JLD too. Not out of disrespect, but because you've made your decision to detach and focus on the kids, and move forward. I think you'll be in a better place to detach without the guilt and blame JLD is piling on.


:iagree:


----------



## gridcom

I dont know. I'm trying not to get involved here right now. I was happy when this thread slowed down Sunday into this morning. I'll be honest, I'm struggling. I was walking this morning and started thinking about how my kids dont have any pictures of the 4 of us as a family. i think we have one picture from when my youngest was just a little baby. No family photos. I'm not big on pictures. My wife thinks I am a terrorizing emotionally abusive tyrant narcissist, yet despite my profession and my passion for what I do (and passion for everything important to me, apparently) I'm very much a private person who has always shy'd away and been embarrassed by adulation. I know my wife is blame shifting terribly. If you listened to her, she'd tell you that I was just awful , every day, constantly, etc and I know that it's not the truth. It really is the only way she can live with herself for what she has done.  She can't even look me in the eye.

I've said this before. I think about how much I owned in this marriage and how much guilt I took on upon being rejected by my wife, but when I get a moment of clarity and my mind is truly at peace, I don't pretend to think that I was nearly as bad as my wife makes it out to be. So, I don't think I will feel guilty with "what if's", because honestly and truthfully I am a good man with good values and make for a good husband. Everybody has their "shyt" and I sure have mine too, and I was at times emotionally abusive, dismissive, and took for granted a once loving wife. But, if you listened to my wife talking (to me) you would likely think I was a total animal. And I look at her, and the blame shifting and gas lighting is so sincere out of her mouth that I question my own self. But, no man, it's not true. 

It's embellished. In my heart, in the quiet part that whispers the real truth to you, that's what it says to me. I wonder what her real heart is whispering to her. 

She went to our marriage counselor alone on Saturday and the marriage counselor called me yesterday and I asked her if she thought my wife was addicted to the OM, and she said she thought she was, in fact, addicted. She told my wife to go see an IC, because in her opinion she is grieving the loss of the OM. So, follow me, the MC told my wife to see a therapist to help get over the loss of the affair! Insane

Anyway, ugh, my work is slipping bad. I have 9 days until the break and about 20 days of work to do and I can't get it together. This was a real problem in September, and now I think some clients of mine are wondering WTF? And I want to close the computer at 7pm and go hang with my girls. And sometimes, I just want to grieve and give myself a rest. 

I haven't been sleeping at all, maybe 3-4 hours per night every night since Saturday night Nov 28th. This cannot be healthy. i look in the mirror and I see myself physically just falling apart. I am going to ask my IC this week to put me on medication. Is there a pill for being compulsive and depressed? i honestly dont know anything about this stuff. i never bothered to pay attention.

I saw my lawyer yesterday and I am ready for our first mediation on Friday. The house will be sold. I can see a scenario where we all live in the same apartment complex, where the girls can just cross the hall way. Sounds ridiculous but it really does break my heart to not live with my daughters. I know there's a big world out there where this happens and all that, but I'm not too keen on being a dad at arms length. They are growing up too fast as it is. 

Maybe the family photo is for me


----------



## jld

She is undoubtedly feeling guilty.

I hope you can get focused on your work soon. Money is always helpful.

So glad to hear you are selling the house.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ripper

gridcom said:


> My wife thinks I am a terrorizing emotionally abusive tyrant narcissist


If she thinks anything you did in your marriage was bad, maybe karma will deliver onto her a wayward for her next relationship. She will have a new understanding of emotional terrorism. Make no mistake, there was one neglectful abusive partner in your relationship. Her.

Having an affair is just as abusive as holding you down and punching you in the face, maybe worse as the injuries take longer to heal. The blame-shifting and rewriting she is doing is just a continuation of said abuse.

I know you don't want a divorce and are concerned for your kids, but trust me, in time you will realize getting away from her was the best thing you ever did.

Never once have I seen anyone regret divorcing a wayward. Not once. If anyone can find an example on this forum or others, I would like to see it.


----------



## jld

Just saw the part you added. Sounds good that the affair is really over now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Sammy64

Photos are GOOD.. when my ExW left, she left every picture of my daughter, she did not take any at all.. Everyone i have talked with said that is not normal for a mom, to not want to have there baby, baby pictures.. i have kept them all, even the ones where she is in them, as one day my daughter will want them.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

All your suffering is caused by your attachments. Like most of us, you have many rigid attachments. Your life revolves around them, and it's the root of your codependency and control issues.

There's going to come a time on this path when you have to *let go*, or it will drive you insane.

Let go of the life you thought you were going to have. Let go.

My therapist taught me this, when I was in your current frame of mind: Make a "safe place" for your mind, when you are obsessing. Remember a time in your life when it was just you. Probably in your childhood. And you were completely happy and content, all by yourself. Remember the details of those moments...the sights, smells, sounds, etc. 

You were perfectly content, all by yourself, at one point in your life. When you had almost no attachments. 

When you find yourself obsessing, snap your mind back to that safe place. Your brain can't harbor two thoughts simultaneously. This can help stop the obsessive thoughts.

Live in the present. The past only exists in our mind, and none of us is guaranteed a tomorrow. 

Keep on keeping on, grid. And like many have said before, "fake it till you make it". You're going to be ok.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

happyman64 said:


> Grid
> 
> Will you do yourself one favor.
> 
> After the D. When you and your kids are doing just fine.
> 
> Find a woman. A caring, compassionate woman that does not gave any selfish bones in her body.
> 
> A woman that blows your wife away.
> 
> Because with that kind of woman you are going to realize what you have been missing in your life. You will understand just what your kids have been missing in their lives.
> 
> Just do yourself that one favor.
> 
> I did.
> 
> And my life has been great due to the time I took to heal. To think. To improve.
> 
> Take the time.
> 
> And then "Mrs Dead Marriage" is going to look a whole lot uglier in so many ways.
> 
> Do it for you.
> 
> HM


Amen. I did the same. 

And your future self will look back at your present self and say "WTF!"

But then you realize that the suffering was necessary to get you where you currently are.


----------



## gridcom

When the MC told me she felt my wife was addicted to that relationship, I felt relieved and validated. I felt that what I was feeling was right.


----------



## Nucking Futs

gridcom said:


> I dont know. I'm trying not to get involved here right now. I was happy when this thread slowed down Sunday into this morning. I'll be honest, I'm struggling. I was walking this morning and started thinking about how my kids dont have any pictures of the 4 of us as a family. i think we have one picture from when my youngest was just a little baby. No family photos. I'm not big on pictures. My wife thinks I am a terrorizing emotionally abusive tyrant narcissist, yet despite my profession and my passion for what I do (and passion for everything important to me, apparently) I'm very much a private person who has always shy'd away and been embarrassed by adulation. I know my wife is blame shifting terribly. If you listened to her, she'd tell you that I was just awful , every day, constantly, etc and I know that it's not the truth. It really is the only way she can live with herself for what she has done.  She can't even look me in the eye.
> 
> I've said this before. I think about how much I owned in this marriage and how much guilt I took on upon being rejected by my wife, but when I get a moment of clarity and my mind is truly at peace, I don't pretend to think that I was nearly as bad as my wife makes it out to be. So, I don't think I will feel guilty with "what if's", because honestly and truthfully I am a good man with good values and make for a good husband. Everybody has their "shyt" and I sure have mine too, and I was at times emotionally abusive, dismissive, and took for granted a once loving wife. But, if you listened to my wife talking (to me) you would likely think I was a total animal. And I look at her, and the blame shifting and gas lighting is so sincere out of her mouth that I question my own self. But, no man, it's not true.
> 
> It's embellished. In my heart, in the quiet part that whispers the real truth to you, that's what it says to me. I wonder what her real heart is whispering to her.
> 
> She went to our marriage counselor alone on Saturday and the marriage counselor called me yesterday and I asked her if she thought my wife was addicted to the OM, and she said she thought she was, in fact, addicted. She told my wife to go see an IC, because in her opinion she is grieving the loss of the OM. So, follow me, the MC told my wife to see a therapist to help get over the loss of the affair! Insane
> 
> Anyway, ugh, my work is slipping bad. I have 9 days until the break and about 20 days of work to do and I can't get it together. This was a real problem in September, and now I think some clients of mine are wondering WTF? And I want to close the computer at 7pm and go hang with my girls. And sometimes, I just want to grieve and give myself a rest.
> 
> I haven't been sleeping at all, maybe 3-4 hours per night every night since Saturday night Nov 28th. This cannot be healthy. i look in the mirror and I see myself physically just falling apart. I am going to ask my IC this week to put me on medication. Is there a pill for being compulsive and depressed? i honestly dont know anything about this stuff. i never bothered to pay attention.
> 
> I saw my lawyer yesterday and I am ready for our first mediation on Friday. The house will be sold. *I can see a scenario where we all live in the same apartment complex, where the girls can just cross the hall way.* Sounds ridiculous but it really does break my heart to not live with my daughters. I know there's a big world out there where this happens and all that, but I'm not too keen on being a dad at arms length. They are growing up too fast as it is.
> 
> Maybe the family photo is for me


That sounds good in theory but bear in mind you would have to see her paramours coming and going. I think it would be better to live apart but make sure your kids know you'll come get them if they call.


----------



## just got it 55

gridcom said:


> When the MC told me she felt my wife was addicted to that relationship, I felt relieved and validated. I felt that what I was feeling was right.


Grid don't discuss this with Mrs.Grid just move on and detach

Clear & present indifference young man

55


----------



## Tron

gridcom said:


> When the MC told me she felt my wife was addicted to that relationship, I felt relieved and validated. I felt that what I was feeling was right.


And if that's the case, she is going to have to hit rock bottom to get herself motivated to fix it. You cannot do it for her. And you sure as $hit don't need to continue to enable it.


----------



## jld

gridcom said:


> When the MC told me she felt my wife was addicted to that relationship, I felt relieved and validated. I felt that what I was feeling was right.


Sounds just like what @RoseAglow was telling you the other day.


----------



## Ms. GP

I think the therapist telling her to get an IC to grieve OM was politically correct therapist code for, "I don't want to deal with your crazy azz."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Ms. GP said:


> I think the therapist telling her to get an IC to grieve OM was politically correct therapist code for, "I don't want to deal with your crazy azz."
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes and perhaps an acknowledgement that the therapist can't successfully counsel someone in MARRIAGE counseling when they are obsessing about a third party!


----------



## farsidejunky

Ms. GP said:


> I think the therapist telling her to get an IC to grieve OM was politically correct therapist code for, "I don't want to deal with your crazy azz."
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Love it!

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Evinrude58

Grid,
You're going to get through this, and when you do, you're going to realize that JLD's advice kept you from getting over this catastrophe as fast as you could have. It's caused you countless days of unnecessary misery. Heck, you were going to have to endure enough without the hope and self-degradation that JLD inserted in your mind.
One day, you'll realize that when your wife chose to destroy her marriage by letting this other man into her heart and shoving you out of it, THERE WAS NOTHING YOU COULD DO. What kind of husband you were really DOESN'T MATTER at this point, because your wife slaughtered your image in her mind.

You will also realize that your life will be far better, and your mind will be in a much better state of peace without wondering constantly who she's banging and why she's doing it. It will be unimportant to you.
Should you spend a little time searching your faults. Sure. But don't dwell on them. Just try to get things in your life as straight as possible so you can go forward with waking up to a day where you are excited to see the sun rise.
Good luck!


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Regarding faults - we've all got them. I've got them, my wife had then, JLD certainly has them. I don't think any of the three of us are cheating, though, and I suspect all three of our spouses love us, faults and all. We will never be fault free, which is why one has to be "fault tolerent" in a marriage.

More smoke screens and mirrors to torture yourself with but you should just think if your faults as white noise - or to frame it in a way you'll relate to - like a mildly annoying blown speaker in your radio alarm clock... which you hopefully don't really listen to too much.


----------



## turnera

gridcom said:


> When the MC told me she felt my wife was addicted to that relationship, I felt relieved and validated. I felt that what I was feeling was right.


And that WE were right in telling you she was an addict, right? Right? J/K


----------



## gridcom

turnera said:


> And that WE were right in telling you she was an addict, right? Right? J/K


Well, the difference is that this was someone that spent considerable time with her alone. Two and a half sessions alone with my wife and 4 or 5 with us together.


----------



## Keepin-my-head-up

So, how did the affair finally end?
I apologize if you already explained


----------



## just got it 55

Keepin-my-head-up said:


> So, how did the affair finally end?
> I apologize if you already explained


I wouldn't go that far 

I think it's still on one way or another.

55


----------



## gridcom

Keepin-my-head-up said:


> So, how did the affair finally end?
> I apologize if you already explained


It's extremely hard for me to believe that I've caught every lie she has told. Obviously, all of you understand what I mean there. I can't take her at her word right now. It means nothing. She has told me point blank that I've caught every single lie she's told me; preposterous.

That said, she claims she has only slept with him the one time and since then she has only admired from a distance and her heart is broken because she can't be with him and wants to be. 

Whatever. This means nothing to me. The affair is on if you define it as still having contact on a personal level.

She disputes that. I don't care. It is what it is.


----------



## just got it 55

But Grid she can be with him what's stopping her surely you have had that conversation with her.

She knows it is a fvcking fairy tale and still can't come to her senses 

She's a lost little school girl she is going to have one sensational wake up call for the ages.

Anyway Grid no longer your problem.

55


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> It is what it is.


You are learning fast.....now.

It is what it is.......until it isn't anymore.


----------



## Bibi1031

Affair being over is just more lies! An addict doesn't stop using until they hit rock bottom or "the drug " dumps them. This has not happened in your wife's case. Just a couple of days ago, he had that song playlist going on for her. They still see each other every day. She is still getting her fix with just seeing him everyday at work and giving each other "those" looks. 

It's not your concern anymore. It's not worth the head space!


----------



## just got it 55

Bibi1031 said:


> Affair being over is just more lies! An addict doesn't stop using until they hit rock bottom or "the drug " dumps them. This has not happened in your wife's case. Just a couple of days ago, he had that song playlist going on for her. They still see each other every day. She is still getting her fix with just seeing him everyday at work and giving each other "those" looks.
> 
> It's not your concern anymore. It's not worth the head space!


Yes Grid let it all go because you know what I fear..... One day you are going to either run into or seek out this little POS and teach him a lesson he will never forget.

When those thoughts come to you just think of your babies They need their daddy .

55


----------



## turnera

gridcom said:


> Well, the difference is that this was someone that spent considerable time with her alone. Two and a half sessions alone with my wife and 4 or 5 with us together.


Well, my point was that we've been around long enough to see the statistics prove out that cheating IS an addiction (for most people), and to address the affair, you have to treat it the same way you would an addict; i.e., don't give them more drugs.

So (for readers) when we say your cheating spouse is addicted to the affair, we know what we're talking about! It's a psychological high that they can't wean themselves off of without your strong intervention.


----------



## gridcom

just got it 55 said:


> But Grid she can be with him what's stopping her surely you have had that conversation with her.
> 
> She knows it is a fvcking fairy tale and still can't come to her senses
> 
> She's a lost little school girl she is going to have one sensational wake up call for the ages.
> 
> Anyway Grid no longer your problem.
> 
> 55


What is stopping her is MONEY. She can't live on her own, and she doesn't want to leave the kids with me. She has me by the balls in a sense as I would love to leave now and make an agreement based on our current finances. I've sent a temporary seperation agreement to her and she's ignored it

Essentially, because of money and because I cannot just stop paying the bills (legally, since the divorce order), she is making me stay here, pay the bills, and watch her pine and carry on with this man up close

Just writing those words makes me so f&cking angry. It is essentially unbearably cruel and heartless coming from a woman who've I've loved and been faithful to, to treat me this way. When the kids go off to school, and it's just her and I in this house, the tension is so hot I don't understand how either of us can even bear it. But, yet, she's ignored completely my temporary separation agreement.

"I don't want you anymore but I can't afford you to leave, so I am going to be cruel and incredibly selfish and make you stay. Then, on top of that, I am going to be completely disrespectful and have an affair while you are still living here. And I expect you not to say a F&CKING WORD about it, because if you do, then you are a piece of sh^t abusive a$$hole"


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

So, how does she grieve if they are still sending messages over spotify and lighting internet lanterns for each other? Hmmm... sounds like your wife is still telling lies.


----------



## TeddieG

gridcom said:


> My wife thinks I am a terrorizing emotionally abusive tyrant narcissist . . . I know my wife is blame shifting terribly. If you listened to her, she'd tell you that I was just awful , every day, constantly, etc and I know that it's not the truth. It really is the only way she can live with herself for what she has done.  She can't even look me in the eye.
> 
> I've said this before. I think about how much I owned in this marriage and how much guilt I took on upon being rejected by my wife, but when I get a moment of clarity and my mind is truly at peace, *I don't pretend to think that I was nearly as bad as my wife makes it out to be.* Good. So, I don't think I will feel guilty with "what if's", because honestly and truthfully I am a good man with good values and make for a good husband. Everybody has their "shyt" and I sure have mine too, and I was at times emotionally abusive, dismissive, and took for granted a once loving wife. But, if you listened to my wife talking (to me) you would likely think I was a total animal. And I look at her, and the blame shifting and gas lighting is so sincere out of her mouth that I question my own self. But, no man, it's not true.
> 
> It's embellished.


THIS!! Never lose sight of this.


----------



## LongWalk

You haven't caught all her lies because there were spread out over 18 months now. You have yet to even discover all the facts that could be questioned.

You should only communicate with her via Spotify play lists.

Possible song number one?

Practice not getting mad because that will just drive your blood pressure up. Do not negotiate property settlement and other critical divorce issues in a state of anger and impulsiveness.

Your wife loves a guy who cannot truly be called an OM because he is a boyish fellow. Were he really resolute your wife would be cheating openly.

You should tell her to go and spend nights with him. You are done. The sneaking around is only fun when it's forbidden. Let her gorge herself on OM. She knows it is going lead to unhappiness.

If you genuinely let go of her, she may come back to you, but the likelihood that you will want to resume this relationship is not so great.

Perhaps she can be happy with someone else but not without therapy and humility.

How will you cope with Christmas?


----------



## gridcom

LongWalk said:


> How will you cope with Christmas?


Going to Jedi Mind Trick the kids and give them more presents than they can fathom. Kind of like giving morphine to someone who broke both arms, both legs, and their back.
_
"Here's EVERYTHING on your X-Mas list kiddies! Pay no attention to your mother's black empty eyes and the fact that things are getting packed in boxes. We're going to numb you into delirium!!!"_


----------



## lifeistooshort

LongWalk said:


> You haven't caught all her lies because there were spread out over 18 months now. You have yet to even discover all the facts that could be questioned.
> 
> You should only communicate with her via Spotify play lists.
> 
> Possible song number one?
> 
> Practice not getting mad because that will just drive your blood pressure up. Do not negotiate property settlement and other critical divorce issues in a state of anger and impulsiveness.
> 
> Your wife loves a guy who cannot truly be called an OM because he is a boyish fellow. Were he really resolute your wife would be cheating openly.
> 
> You should tell her to go and spend nights with him. You are done. The sneaking around is only fun when it's forbidden. Let her gorge herself on OM. She knows it is going lead to unhappiness.
> 
> If you genuinely let go of her, she may come back to you, but the likelihood that you will want to resume this relationship is not so great.
> 
> Perhaps she can be happy with someone else but not without therapy and humility.
> 
> How will you cope with Christmas?


There may be something to this. Your wife is trying to get a rise out of you, so don't give her one. Tell her you no longer care what she does so if she wants to be a plaything for some guy who works at Starbucks she can knock herself out. Tell her to have a good time and then ignore her. 

When she's on the phone tell her to say hi for you and that you hope he's looking forward to supporting her.

It will be a lot less fun for her if you stop reacting.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

lifeistooshort said:


> There may be something to this. Your wife is trying to get a rise out of you, so don't give her one. Tell her you no longer care what she does so if she wants to be a plaything for some guy who works at Starbucks she can knock herself out. Tell her to have a good time and then ignore her.
> 
> When she's on the phone tell her to say hi for you and that you hope he's looking forward to supporting her.
> 
> It will be a lot less fun for her if you stop reacting.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wait. The affair is over. She's pining for this other man. But they're talking on the phone? Something doesn't add up here.


----------



## gridcom

The funny thing about taking any kind of medication for OCD is that it would seriously derail my ability to work. I think my OCD is a BIG plus in my skill set professionally. Hahaha, this is so wrong. Prozac? Zoloft? Lexapro?
_
Are There Side Effects?
Yes. Most patients will experience one or more side effects from all of the medications listed above.
The patient and doctor must weigh the benefits of the drug against the side effects.
It is important for the patient to be open about problems that may be caused by the medication. Sometimes an adjustment in dose or a switch in the time of day it is taken is all that is needed._


----------



## gridcom

bfree said:


> Wait. The affair is over. She's pining for this other man. But they're talking on the phone? Something doesn't add up here.


They don't talk on the phone unless she has a second phone. I've checked multiple times for a second phone and she's not that clever, to be honest, to be able to hide it from me. I am pretty _Sherlock Holmes_ these days. I have access to our phone records online and there is nothing. I've checked her text messages as recently as last Monday when we had our blow out and there has been no text messages. his last text message from 7/25 sits there in chronological order.

The affair is not over. She wants him. He wants her. A full on emotional affair, at least. They're not seeing each other out of work, but I'm sure they want to. They're trying to figure out a way. This is one of the blame shifting things going on. She says she's mad about the way I've acted in the face of all of this, but I think she's really just mad at me because I've done a good job of disrupting it.


----------



## ButtPunch

Was status quo ordered by the court or was it just a letter from her lawyer?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## gridcom

ButtPunch said:


> Was status quo ordered by the court or was it just a letter from her lawyer?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I dont know the difference, but my lawyer told me to keep paying the bills


----------



## turnera

gridcom said:


> Going to Jedi Mind Trick the kids and give them more presents than they can fathom. Kind of like giving morphine to someone who broke both arms, both legs, and their back.
> _
> "Here's EVERYTHING on your X-Mas list kiddies! Pay no attention to your mother's black empty eyes and the fact that things are getting packed in boxes. We're going to numb you into delirium!!!"_


Do me a favor, grid. Take at least 33% of that stuff you were going to buy for them, and instead buy tickets or admissions to some places you can take them over the winter holidays. Zoo, museums, state parks, sledding, water skiing (depending on where you live)...take them out and DO stuff with them instead.

btw, are you planning to let their company know about this?


----------



## tom67

Grid this could be your future if you choose it...

From Hiroad's thread...

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-through-divorce-separation/62644-what-do-w-walk-away-wife-51.html

Heartrn is his new wife.:grin2:


----------



## gridcom

turnera said:


> Do me a favor, grid. Take at least 33% of that stuff you were going to buy for them, and instead buy tickets or admissions to some places you can take them over the winter holidays. Zoo, museums, state parks, sledding, water skiing (depending on where you live)...take them out and DO stuff with them instead.
> 
> btw, are you planning to let their company know about this?


My wife is going to have to get a new job certainly. When she does, the day she starts, I am going to tell her old company about that sleezeball, no doubt.


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> I dont know the difference, but my lawyer told me to keep paying the bills


Keep paying the bills doesn't mean keep her living the same lifestyle.

I would tighten the wallet and remove luxuries she enjoys. 

She balks just tell her you are cutting expenses to pay for the impending divorce.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## gridcom

ButtPunch said:


> Keep paying the bills doesn't mean keep her living the same lifestyle.
> 
> I would tighten the wallet and remove luxuries she enjoys.
> 
> She balks just tell her you are cutting expenses to pay for the impending divorce.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Seriously, I dont think I can stress enough, there are NO luxuries here. At all. We are broke and about to get a whole lot broker. I do get a significant X-Mas bonus coming this week. My lawyer says since its coming post Divorce Papers, it is technically not a marriage asset.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

gridcom said:


> My lawyer says since its coming post Divorce Papers, it is technically not a marriage asset.


Depends which country or state you're in.

Some family courts actually rule that any future income "would have been" shared and so the other half gets a cut. got to be a special kind of retard to sit in IRS/court/family law at times.


----------



## gridcom

You know what is depressing? Reading other threads. This place should be called "House Of Pain" rather than TAM.


----------



## farsidejunky

There are happy endings here, even if they are not the majority.

Your thread is full of posters with them.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## gridcom

farsidejunky said:


> There are happy endings here, even if they are not the majority.
> 
> Your thread is full of posters with them.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


No, I know. It's just kind of overwhelming that people do such cruddy things. "I Do" and "Til Death Do Us Part". I took those things seriously. I didn't think I married someone who hit eject during tough times. Ah, well....

And the Mets didn't get Zobrist. So, eh...


----------



## farsidejunky

Grid, are you still snooping?

If so, why? 

I think it was Happyman who earlier said to tell her she is free to date the OM.

I think that is brilliant. Truly set her free. Stop snooping. Just act like you DGAF about her until you truly don't. 

I don't think she will know what to do with (or to) a Grid that she no longer knows how to hurt at will and on demand.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## tom67

farsidejunky said:


> Grid, are you still snooping?
> 
> If so, why?
> 
> I think it was Happyman who earlier said to tell her she is free to date the OM.
> 
> I think that is brilliant. Truly set her free. Stop snooping. Just act like you DGAF about her until you truly don't.
> 
> I don't think she will know what to do with (or to) a Grid that she no longer knows how to hurt at will and on demand.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I told him to pack her sh!t and drive her there.
Reality is a b!tch.
Be careful what you wish for.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

gridcom said:


> Seriously, I dont think I can stress enough, there are NO luxuries here. At all. We are broke and about to get a whole lot broker. I do get a significant X-Mas bonus coming this week. My lawyer says since its coming post Divorce Papers, it is technically not a marriage asset.


Well then, the next trip to Panera is just you and the kids. TS can have her soup at home.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Hey grid,

Carlton, like you, had to live in the same house as his cheating wife until the D. For a really long time. I think you might take interest in his thread:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/private-members-section/67148-carltons-thread-continued.html

Read the first page. Remind you of anyone?


----------



## bfree

gridcom said:


> They don't talk on the phone unless she has a second phone. I've checked multiple times for a second phone and she's not that clever, to be honest, to be able to hide it from me. I am pretty _Sherlock Holmes_ these days. I have access to our phone records online and there is nothing. I've checked her text messages as recently as last Monday when we had our blow out and there has been no text messages. his last text message from 7/25 sits there in chronological order.
> 
> The affair is not over. She wants him. He wants her. A full on emotional affair, at least. They're not seeing each other out of work, but I'm sure they want to. They're trying to figure out a way. This is one of the blame shifting things going on. She says she's mad about the way I've acted in the face of all of this, but I think she's really just mad at me because I've done a good job of disrupting it.


Oh okay. I was reacting to what lifeistooshort wrote. So right now you're mostly dealing with her natural stubborn streak and the Harlequin romance fog she's cloaked herself in. You should ask your friends that have teenage daughters how they handle them.


----------



## gridcom

ThreeStrikes said:


> Hey grid,
> 
> Carlton, like you, had to live in the same house as his cheating wife until the D. For a really long time. I think you might take interest in his thread:
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/private-members-section/67148-carltons-thread-continued.html
> 
> Read the first page. Remind you of anyone?


1st page read. This is awful. What is wrong with people? 

Struck by this:

_I made my WW tell the kids, this was her mess and she needed to tell them. She said almost the whole thing without shedding a tear. How could she be so cold and heartless? Just one more reason I need to leave this cheating b!tch. She did cry, eventually, but no where near the amount I did.

My son, my poor son. He kept saying how I should just say please and thank you to mommy more, that she would not want to divorce. That was, by far, the worst of all.

She even told them that mommy and daddy "tried." Bullsh!t. She didn't lift a damn finger to try and reconcile our marriage._


----------



## eric1

gridcom said:


> No, I know. It's just kind of overwhelming that people do such cruddy things. "I Do" and "Til Death Do Us Part". I took those things seriously. I didn't think I married someone who hit eject during tough times. Ah, well....
> 
> 
> 
> And the Mets didn't get Zobrist. So, eh...



4 years at what he was looking for? No thanks.

You'll come out of this a better person. In some senses living an isolated warm life where you are content is a nice thing, but the happy cases I've seen is where this is the event that propels you to hammer yourself out of your comfort zone for the rest of your life.

It's all about approach. You'll get there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## gridcom

ThreeStrikes said:


> Hey grid,
> 
> Carlton, like you, had to live in the same house as his cheating wife until the D. For a really long time. I think you might take interest in his thread:
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/private-members-section/67148-carltons-thread-continued.html
> 
> Read the first page. Remind you of anyone?


And, of course, 2 years later she is making overtures about reconciliation. And even though he has moved on and has a new lady friend, he can't help but be sad. 

Looks like many of you were on his thread too.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

gridcom said:


> 1st page read. This is awful. What is wrong with people?
> 
> Struck by this:
> 
> _I made my WW tell the kids, this was her mess and she needed to tell them. She said almost the whole thing without shedding a tear. How could she be so cold and heartless? Just one more reason I need to leave this cheating b!tch. She did cry, eventually, but no where near the amount I did.
> 
> My son, my poor son. He kept saying how I should just say please and thank you to mommy more, that she would not want to divorce. That was, by far, the worst of all.
> 
> She even told them that mommy and daddy "tried." Bullsh!t. She didn't lift a damn finger to try and reconcile our marriage._


It's a shame he nuked his first thread. I think he had to for legal purposes.


----------



## gridcom

ThreeStrikes said:


> Hey grid,
> 
> Carlton, like you, had to live in the same house as his cheating wife until the D. For a really long time. I think you might take interest in his thread:
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/private-members-section/67148-carltons-thread-continued.html
> 
> Read the first page. Remind you of anyone?


Ok, I read this guys whole thread. Here's how I sum it up. Wife was horrible to him, cheated, mid life crisis, blame shifting, the whole thing.

Two years later (they lived together for 20 months after she had the affair? So, really 4 months into living apart) she starts making overtures about the demise of their marriage, maybe wants to reconcile.

Meanwhile, this guy has a new GF, acts all happy about it. Great sex and "Man, things are so great now!" But, in one comment he mentions how the worst thing in the world is coming home to an empty house.

Meanwhile his wife is jealous of his new GF and flaunts her new BF on Facebook so over the top that the people in town mention to him how his ex seems sad and desperate. She makes little cutting/sniping comments about how he's moved on, etc. OF COURSE HE MOVED ON. What was he supposed to do? Well, it mentions in one comment that she tells him he should have waited EVEN LONGER for her to come out of her funk! WTF!

Meanwhile, all this guy is doing is having sex with his GF, they break up, he has sex with multiple other girls, they get back together,etc

And his son is so shaken up by the divorce that he has to see a psychologist. The kid is 9 years old.

I think it's damn sad, is what it is. Him, with his shallow relationships but admitting that coming home most nights to silence is upsetting (really touched a nerve in me). His ex-wife, who was brutal in openly having affairs while he was just tolling in the depths of trying to get his wife back. Then, of course, she regrets what she did 2 years later

The whole thing is sad. It seems like regret and unhappiness is all over this guys life. 

I don't want to come into an empty house.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

gridcom said:


> I don't want to come into an empty house.


Why does that frighten you?


----------



## turnera

I think the points are that (1) he needed to find his happiness inside himself rather than from a woman and (2) the only chance of getting a cheating woman back is her seeing you moving on. For some reason, it KILLS women to see another woman wanting you and you suddenly become 'worth' something again. Goes back to caveman days, I'm sure. Not a great testament to women, but it is what it is.


----------



## gridcom

ThreeStrikes said:


> Why does that frighten you?


I'm surprised you wouldn't know. I like(d) having a family to come home to. I like hearing TV's on and looking into bedrooms and see my kids doing stuff or watching TV together. I like the smell of my wife cooking (she's excellent). I like resolving disputes between siblings. I like family dinners. I like having someone to talk to. I like having a companion who is there when I walk in the door.

Sure, I'll see my kids on weekends and maybe, if I am lucky, one over night per week. But, that's still 4 nights a week where I will be sleeping alone in my new place (that I rent/don't own)

I don't need talking of a ledge here, either. It sucks absolutely zero less than it did yesterday, though. 

And reading Carlton's thread....ANOTHER example of a WS coming to their senses after some time and looking to reconcile. It's like "Can't we just do that now? Can't you come to your senses now?"

Anyway...


----------



## jld

You know what you want, grid. With some patience and perseverance, I think you can get it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> I think the points are that (1) he needed to find his happiness inside himself rather than from a woman and (2) the only chance of getting a cheating woman back is her seeing you moving on. For some reason, it KILLS women to see another woman wanting you and you suddenly become 'worth' something again. Goes back to caveman days, I'm sure. Not a great testament to women, but it is what it is.


Turnera, why would he want to resort to game playing to get her back? Why using another woman like that?

Where is the integrity in that approach?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> Turnera, why would he want to resort to game playing to get her back? Why using another woman like that?
> 
> Where is the integrity in that approach?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How in the world is moving on game playing? I sometimes think you say things to get a reaction from people


----------



## jld

It just kills me to give up on your marriage, grid. But if it has to come to that, please proceed cleanly.

Imagine your daughter following in your wife's footsteps, as sad as that sounds. How would you want your sil to behave towards her?

Just keep that in mind as this all progresses. Use it to guide your conscience, and it should ultimately bring you peace.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ButtPunch

ThreeStrikes said:


> Well then, the next trip to Panera is just you and the kids. TS can have her soup at home.


This.....Cut the internet off the smart phones.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

gridcom said:


> I'm surprised you wouldn't know. I like(d) having a family to come home to. I like hearing TV's on and looking into bedrooms and see my kids doing stuff or watching TV together. I like the smell of my wife cooking (she's excellent). I like resolving disputes between siblings. I like family dinners. I like having someone to talk to. I like having a companion who is there when I walk in the door.
> 
> Sure, I'll see my kids on weekends and maybe, if I am lucky, one over night per week. But, that's still 4 nights a week where I will be sleeping alone in my new place (that I rent/don't own)
> 
> I don't need talking of a ledge here, either. It sucks absolutely zero less than it did yesterday, though.
> 
> And reading Carlton's thread....ANOTHER example of a WS coming to their senses after some time and looking to reconcile. It's like "Can't we just do that now? Can't you come to your senses now?"
> 
> Anyway...


I understand where you are coming from. But, let me tell you something. Walking this path has really taught me to enjoy solitude, and be *content*.

Solitude is different than loneliness.

In fact, I think it's very difficult to have successful relationships if you aren't comfortable in your solitude.

Case in point: Carlton. He never owned his POS tendencies, nor did he learn to be alone. There is something to be learned there.

Let go of the life you thought you were going to live.


----------



## gridcom

jld said:


> You know what you want, grid. With some patience and perseverance, I think you can get it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, sorry, I don't agree. It's not up to me and I am not willing to live through an affair. It's disrespectful on a level well beyond any grievance my wife had with me. 

It doesn't make it suck any less, but I am not going to sit around and watch her carry on with another man. I am not going to listen to her tell me how awful of a husband I was. I'm addressing my issues and being totally stand up about it. 

Accountability is big with me. I am demonstrating it with myself, but like I said yesterday, I think I bought into some of her enhancing my faults so she could sleep at night and convince herself what she did was OK. 

Her friend, or her _confidant_, at church told me this weekend that when my wife went and visited her a few weeks ago, my wife told her that I was still her best friend. She then asked my wife if she thought I was trying to fix my issues, and my wife told her "yes". So, the woman asked her "what's the problem then?" (paraphrasing). And this woman told me my wife's response was something along the lines of "I don't know. It's me I guess"

Whatever. I crushed work pretty good yesterday and I plan on doing so again today. I see my IC tomorrow and will ask about some medication, maybe, to help with OCD. 

My wife says I am relentless, and that is undeniable. I can see how that can get on someone's nerves, for sure. Works well in my profession, though.


----------



## dubsey

gridcom said:


> And reading Carlton's thread....ANOTHER example of a WS coming to their senses after some time and looking to reconcile. It's like "Can't we just do that now? Can't you come to your senses now?"
> 
> Anyway...


You assume she's coming to her senses because that's what you want to believe. She could, just as easily, be missing the lifestyle Carlton provided and seeing some other woman have a part of that. It may have literally nothing to do with Carlton, as a man, and if that's true, he could get back with her, and watch the whole cycle repeat.

IMO, it's the classic "no, I don't want it, but you can't have it" thing siblings do all the time.


----------



## jld

gridcom said:


> No, sorry, I don't agree. It's not up to me and I am not willing to live through an affair. It's disrespectful on a level well beyond any grievance my wife had with me.
> 
> It doesn't make it suck any less, but I am not going to sit around and watch her carry on with another man. I am not going to listen to her tell me how awful of a husband I was. I'm addressing my issues and being totally stand up about it.
> 
> Accountability is big with me. I am demonstrating it with myself, but like I said yesterday, I think I bought into some of her enhancing my faults so she could sleep at night and convince herself what she did was OK.
> 
> Her friend, or her _confidant_, at church told me this weekend that when my wife went and visited her a few weeks ago, my wife told her that I was still her best friend. She then asked my wife if she thought I was trying to fix my issues, and my wife told her "yes". So, the woman asked her "what's the problem then?" (paraphrasing). And this woman told me my wife's response was something along the lines of "I don't know. It's me I guess"
> 
> Whatever. I crushed work pretty good yesterday and I plan on doing so again today. I see my IC tomorrow and will ask about some medication, maybe, to help with OCD.
> 
> My wife says *I am relentless, and that is undeniable*. I can see how that can get on someone's nerves, for sure. Works well in my profession, though.


I think perseverance is excellent! A very good quality! 

You don't have to stay and wait out the affair like Wazza did. It sounds like you are moving ahead with the divorce and splitting the assets. But I would question any advice to get involved with another woman to make your wife jealous. That sounds risky to me. 

Your wife knows you are a good man. She does need to heal from her addiction before she will see it all clearly. I would not be surprised if this whole incident is humbling her, and will continue to humble her. And it should!

All I am saying is that in a few months she may be coming to you to ask forgiveness. If you hold off from getting involved with another woman, you two may be able to rebuild your marriage. And despite all the pain you have been through, that is what I sense is still the desire of your heart.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> I think perseverance is excellent! A very good quality!
> 
> *You don't have to stay and wait out the affair like Wazza did.* It sounds like you are moving ahead with the divorce and splitting the assets. But I would question any advice to get involved with another woman to make your wife jealous. That sounds risky to me.
> 
> Your wife knows you are a good man. She does need to heal from her addiction before she will see it all clearly. I would not be surprised if this whole incident is humbling her, and will continue to humble her. And it should!
> 
> All I am saying is that in a few months she may be coming to you to ask forgiveness. If you hold off from getting involved with another woman, you two may be able to rebuild your marriage. And despite all the pain you have been through, that is what I sense is still the desire of your heart.


Wazza did not wait out an affair. Why do you keep saying that? Are you familiar with his story?


----------



## turnera

ThreeStrikes said:


> I understand where you are coming from. But, let me tell you something. Walking this path has really taught me to enjoy solitude, and be *content*.
> 
> Solitude is different than loneliness.
> 
> In fact, I think it's very difficult to have successful relationships if you aren't comfortable in your solitude.
> 
> Case in point: Carlton. He never owned his POS tendencies, nor did he learn to be alone. There is something to be learned there.
> 
> Let go of the life you thought you were going to live.


THIS. This is what I was trying to say. If you can't be ok BY yourself, you'll never be ok. I do understand not wanting to lose the family system you had. But that's not an option, so look to the next best thing you can hope for - and from everything I've learned over the years, it's learning to be ok by yourself, to find peace. That's why I always tell people to not date for a year after a divorce - to find that peace. And then, the women you choose will be for the right reason, not to fill that empty hole, and you'll be more likely to make a good choice, not like Carlton did.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> Imagine your daughter following in your wife's footsteps, as sad as that sounds. How would you want your sil to behave towards her?
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Using Grids daughter to shame him again. Nice. 

Grid's daughter is learning. She is learning self-respect from Grid. She is learning to not stay in an abusive relationship if it happens to her when she is older. Her Father is setting an example of strength under strenuous circumstances.


----------



## ButtPunch

turnera said:


> THIS. This is what I was trying to say. If you can't be ok BY yourself, you'll never be ok. I do understand not wanting to lose the family system you had. But that's not an option, so look to the next best thing you can hope for - and from everything I've learned over the years, it's learning to be ok by yourself, to find peace. That's why I always tell people to not date for a year after a divorce - to find that peace. And then, the women you choose will be for the right reason, not to fill that empty hole, and you'll be more likely to make a good choice, not like Carlton did.


Yep.....can't be codependent by yourself.


----------



## gridcom

jld said:


> I think perseverance is excellent! A very good quality!
> 
> You don't have to stay and wait out the affair like Wazza did. It sounds like you are moving ahead with the divorce and splitting the assets. But I would question any advice to get involved with another woman to make your wife jealous. That sounds risky to me.
> 
> Your wife knows you are a good man. She does need to heal from her addiction before she will see it all clearly. I would not be surprised if this whole incident is humbling her, and will continue to humble her. And it should!
> 
> All I am saying is that in a few months she may be coming to you to ask forgiveness. If you hold off from getting involved with another woman, you two may be able to rebuild your marriage. And despite all the pain you have been through, that is what I sense is still the desire of your heart.


I have no plans on getting with another woman anytime soon. I've asked for my kids EVERY weekend, which obviously stifles a real social life, anyway. I knew what it meant to ask for that.


----------



## jld

gridcom said:


> I have no plans on getting with another woman anytime soon. I've asked for my kids EVERY weekend, which obviously stifles a real social life, anyway. I knew what it meant to ask for that.


Glad to hear it.


----------



## bfree

ButtPunch said:


> Wazza did not wait out an affair. Why do you keep saying that? Are you familiar with his story?


Because she has the mindset of a WS. Despite having the truth put right in front of her she just denies, denies, denies. She has no other cases of her advice working in this type of situation so a false Wazza story is all she has to hang her hat on.


----------



## bfree

turnera said:


> THIS. This is what I was trying to say. If you can't be ok BY yourself, you'll never be ok. I do understand not wanting to lose the family system you had. But that's not an option, so look to the next best thing you can hope for - and from everything I've learned over the years, it's learning to be ok by yourself, to find peace. That's why I always tell people to not date for a year after a divorce - to find that peace. And then, the women you choose will be for the right reason, not to fill that empty hole, and you'll be more likely to make a good choice, not like Carlton did.


I think Carlton's other problem, maybe his biggest, was that he was mired in that toxicity for so long that he forgot what a good relationship was like. He was caught in a war of the roses scenario that poisoned his soul.


----------



## happy as a clam

ButtPunch said:


> How in the world is moving on game playing? I sometimes think you say things to get a reaction from people


^ ^ ^

THIS.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Bibi1031

ThreeStrikes said:


> Why does that frighten you?


CO-dependence? 

Well, no more...ever!


----------



## gridcom

bfree said:


> I think Carlton's other problem, maybe his biggest, was that he was mired in that toxicity for so long that he forgot what a good relationship was like. He was caught in a war of the roses scenario that poisoned his soul.


Yeah, if you read Carlton's first page, where he gives an update and overview on the whole thing, you think "poor guy". But, then I skipped to right after that update (Feb 2013) and wanted to see what happened after they physically split, and I couldn't relate to the guy very much at all. His ex-wife comes across as such a POS, but he does himself no favors really with his shallow view on relationships.


----------



## Bibi1031

jld said:


> You know what you want, grid. With some patience and perseverance, I think you can get it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's called false hope!

Look at the reality of things Grid. Just because the WS comes out of the fog and wants her old life back means little to nothing in the grand scheme of things. It's just that the roles have been switched, and now the WS becomes plan B to the BS. It doesn't mean the marriage is back. That can never happen because that marriage is dead. The bridges have been burned beyond repair almost every time. Very few marriages have successful reconciliations. It's in the single digits. It would be in your worst interest to hang on to this False Hope.


----------



## happy as a clam

gridcom said:


> Yeah, if you read Carlton's first page, where he gives an update and overview on the whole thing, you think "poor guy". But, then I skipped to right after that update (Feb 2013) and wanted to see what happened after they physically split, and I couldn't relate to the guy very much at all. His ex-wife comes across as such a POS, *but he does himself no favors really with his shallow view on relationships.*


I agree grid. It seems that his primary concern after the split was getting laid. I don't see that as a path you are heading down. He almost seemed like two different people entirely. Of course, we don't have the benefit of reading his first thread (he deleted it) to see the evolution.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## gridcom

happy as a clam said:


> I agree grid. It seems that his primary concern after the split was getting laid. I don't see that as a path you are heading down. He almost seemed like two different people entirely. Of course, we don't have the benefit of reading his first thread (he deleted it) to see the evolution.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't mind getting laid 

But, the best part of my marriage was the mundane, day to day companionship, sharing, raising children

I certainly got lost, especially this year, in my job and took a lot of that for granted. But, the sex was well below many other things that I appreciate and value in a relationship.


----------



## Bibi1031

ThreeStrikes said:


> I understand where you are coming from. But, let me tell you something. Walking this path has really taught me to enjoy solitude, and be *content*.
> 
> Solitude is different than loneliness.
> 
> In fact, I think it's very difficult to have successful relationships if you aren't comfortable in your solitude.
> 
> Case in point: Carlton. He never owned his POS tendencies, nor did he learn to be alone. There is something to be learned there.
> 
> Let go of the life you thought you were going to live.


QFT

I should know, poster chick for co-dependency!


----------



## gridcom

happy as a clam said:


> I agree grid. It seems that his primary concern after the split was getting laid. I don't see that as a path you are heading down. He almost seemed like two different people entirely. Of course, we don't have the benefit of reading his first thread (he deleted it) to see the evolution.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Also, based on that statement, it seems that maybe Carlton lost sight of the issues that hardened his wife's heart (and made her a POS) in the first place and once clear of the emotional plague of a broken marriage, reverted back to the same crap that got him stuck in the first place. I have to remember not to let that happen to me.


----------



## jld

gridcom said:


> Also, based on that statement, it seems that maybe Carlton lost sight of the issues that hardened his wife's heart (and made her a POS) in the first place and once clear of the emotional plague of a broken marriage, reverted back to the same crap that got him stuck in the first place. * I have to remember not to let that happen to me*.


Very wise, grid.


----------



## ButtPunch

Here is what happens to untreated codependency.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/305850-new-here-but-not-new-infidelity.html


----------



## gridcom

ButtPunch said:


> Here is what happens to untreated codependency.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/305850-new-here-but-not-new-infidelity.html


Thank you for sending me a thread that is only 8 pages (says the guy with the 250 page thread)


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> Thank you for sending me a thread that is only 8 pages (says the guy with the 250 page thread)


You got nothing on this guy. He is transfer from another marriage site. One of the strongest cases of codependency I have seen.


----------



## Chuck71

Pluto2 said:


> Divorcing couples who deal with infidelity like to put morality clauses in agreements. And yes, its your agreement and you can put pretty much whatever you want into it. But judges don't want to hear them when you try to bring a motion to enforce. So put it in and maybe her attorney won't tell her. And then you have another agreement she won't live up to.
> 
> Sounds harsh but one of the realities you will have to find a way to come to grips with is that once you split, you cannot dictate how she lives, or who she sees, or for the most part, who she brings around the kids unless their health and safety are in jeopardy.
> 
> And I think you will have to sell the house, split the proceeds and pay off the debt. There's just no way she will be able to afford to refinance the mortgage. And leaving your name on it offers you no protection if she should stop paying. It happened to a friend of mine this summer. His STBX couldn't refinance the mortgage so under the agreement he gave her half the mortgage payment as spousal support-which she didn't pay. The house went into foreclosure and she hid that, too. He found out the house was gone and his credit was ruined when his 15 yr DD told him they were moving. so despite his efforts to make the divorce easier on the kids, they lost the house and moved anyway.


I would not put it past her to purposefully let the house foreclose. If one knows the system,

the foreclosure could take up to 18 months. In the meantime.... she will be looking for a KISA / Mr. Nice Guy

to ride to the rescue and save her and her kids from being on the street. Victim Chair Philosophy 101


----------



## lifeistooshort

gridcom said:


> They don't talk on the phone unless she has a second phone. I've checked multiple times for a second phone and she's not that clever, to be honest, to be able to hide it from me. I am pretty _Sherlock Holmes_ these days. I have access to our phone records online and there is nothing. I've checked her text messages as recently as last Monday when we had our blow out and there has been no text messages. his last text message from 7/25 sits there in chronological order.
> 
> The affair is not over. She wants him. He wants her. A full on emotional affair, at least. They're not seeing each other out of work, but I'm sure they want to. They're trying to figure out a way. This is one of the blame shifting things going on. She says she's mad about the way I've acted in the face of all of this, but I think she's really just mad at me because I've done a good job of disrupting it.


Have you considered telling her to go ahead and contact him because you've decided she's not worth it? Don't be nasty about it, just detached. 

Take away the forbidden aspect and tell her you're done, then interact with her like you would with a casual acquaintance. 

One thing she does have is the knowledge that you're still waiting if she changes her mind. Take away this security.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## gridcom

lifeistooshort said:


> Have you considered telling her to go ahead and contact him because you've decided she's not worth it? Don't be nasty about it, just detached.
> 
> Take away the forbidden aspect and tell her you're done, then interact with her like you would with a casual acquaintance.
> 
> One thing she does have is the knowledge that you're still waiting if she changes her mind. Take away this security.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I see the purpose this serves. I have a hard time with the thought of being insincere, even if it's in my best interest. What I hope to do is move out of here very soon and allow myself to legitimately detach and then I can say that to her and mean it.


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> I see the purpose this serves. I have a hard time with the thought of being insincere, even if it's in my best interest. What I hope to do is move out of here very soon and allow myself to legitimately detach and then I can say that to her and mean it.


I'm with you on this. It's one thing to fake not caring but telling her to go have sex with OM too much. 

Now if she asks to go out, then you say "I don't care what you do anymore" "have fun" "bye"


----------



## gridcom

ButtPunch said:


> I'm with you on this. It's one thing to fake not caring but telling her to go have sex with OM too much.
> 
> Now if she asks to go out, then you say "I don't care what you do anymore" "have fun" "bye"


This would only be something I would do if she allows me to move out of here now. I sent her a temporary separation agreement last week, and followed up yesterday. She has not responded. The reason she has not responded is because, even though she has had 5 months to prepare for this, she is being selfish here and needs my money. I am nothing but an ATM now. If she doesn't want me, I am ready to go. i found a nice place yesterday to rent; 2 bedrooms for $1850. It's a house, about 4 miles from here. It's perfect. it's actually nicer than my house now, except one less bedroom. I called the person last night and I would like my wife to agree to the temporary agreement so I dont have to live with her and watch this all go down from this close. Being separated would then allow her to carry on with this OM (but not in front of my kid, and not in my house).


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> This would only be something I would do if she allows me to move out of here now. I sent her a temporary separation agreement last week, and followed up yesterday. She has not responded. The reason she has not responded is because, even though she has had 5 months to prepare for this, she is being selfish here and needs my money. I am nothing but an ATM now. If she doesn't want me, I am ready to go. i found a nice place yesterday to rent; 2 bedrooms for $1850. It's a house, about 4 miles from here. It's perfect. it's actually nicer than my house now, except one less bedroom. I called the person last night and I would like my wife to agree to the temporary agreement so I dont have to live with her and watch this all go down from this close. Being separated would then allow her to carry on with this OM (but not in front of my kid, and not in my house).


She can't pay for that house. Are you going to pay for both houses? You need to put the house up for sale. Then she has no choice.


----------



## gridcom

ButtPunch said:


> She can't pay for that house. Are you going to pay for both houses? You need to put the house up for sale. Then she has no choice.


We see mediator on Friday. I have a few home repairs to address before we put it on the market. I am actually going to tackle them later tonight or tomorrow. Small cosmetic and appliance issues. Nothing too major. We also have to get a storage space for her stuff as this place is DRENCHED with clutter

The mortgage on the house is not too much more than a 2 bedroom rental, just shy of $2,100

The reason for selling is to get rid of the debt. We'll go back to renting like when we were in our twenties. It's fine with me


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Wait - are you talking about renting WITH her? In confused how you will support two households


----------



## LongWalk

Grid,

Although I disagree with JLD's tactics and even her principles, she has insights and goodwill. I agree with her that your wife is looking for leadership from you. She is depressed and self destructive. What GutPunch is trying to tell you is that you must stop sending the message that you are there to pick up her mess.

Your decision to move out is a major miscalculation. It is the act of self sacrifice that screams co-dependent. You should not move out because the home is your children's association with security. Why are you going to issue a loan to buck up your wife's destruction of family security corporation at this critical moment. The loan comes at the expense of your team.

Which raises the question: is your wife a member of the team?

Her actions are conflicted. She has filed for divorce. That is action. She is not sleeping with OM at night (though they may occasionally walk away from work and make out).

You need to push the divorce settlement forward to be fair. Reread Turnera's posts. She always recommends demonstrating economic reality to the cheater.

As to telling your wife to have sex with OM(en), that would be crazy. However, you should tell your STBX that a post Retrouvaille divorcing couple are not in a monogamous relationship. Your wife doesn't want sex with you. Your marriage is over in the bedroom.

Why can't you say something like:


> "Honey, we are getting divorced. Retrouvaille did not work for us. Earlier we were having sex because I wanted to be intimate with you. You did not enjoy it and felt it was contradicting your progress towards us splitting. To be honest to myself now I have to recognize that we are not longer a couple in an exclusive relationship. As long as you do not bring your lovers round the home or children, what you do is your business. I am not going to compete with your boyfriend."


If you can wear the I-don't-care game face, your wife may take a harder look at herself. But in the end, you have to fake it till you make it.

Before you start medicating yourself – something your wife would find both gleeful and disheartening – start playing the drums. Get back into a band. If you have a bass player and a guitarist in the basement, you will be able to forget all the BS.


----------



## TeddieG

Bibi1031 said:


> CO-dependence?
> 
> Well, no more...ever!


Sometimes I think the word co-dependent is overused. I don't think it is co dependent to be concerned about, and even to consider having to anticipate, adjusting to an empty house or a new place to live, when it has been filled with children. And throw in the fact that we all have a tendency as humans to fear what we don't yet know or haven't experienced, but expect to. When people acknowledge their fears, they can overcome them. And Grid got a good primer in the difference in solitude and loneliness. It is possible to be alone without being lonely, and that's probably, as Turnera has pointed out, one of the best things people can learn and learn how to distinguish between before moving on to another relationship.


----------



## turnera

Have you started cutting back? Have you ended cable? Have you gotten a lower-end internet? Have you started selling household items to pay down bills? Have you stopped giving your wife any money? You should be doing this stuff no matter what happens.


----------



## cbnero

Do not move out yet. That would be a colossal mistake. 

One thing that we have stressed to you multiple times is boundaries. You still do not have them in place.

Stay in your home. Work on your boundaries. You have none right now.

Until that house sells you stay. End of discussion. 

Separate banking. Stop paying for everything. Start paying half only. When she balks, offer to pay all as a loan to her, and that is money that will be credited towards your end of the settlement. 

If she gets mad, balks, calls your bluff - do not engage. You need to wise up sir.

Boundaries

Boundaries

Boundaries 

Get smart. Get your lawyer moving and actively involved. Stop being a sap.


----------



## happy as a clam

cbnero said:


> *Do not move out yet. That would be a colossal mistake. *
> 
> One thing that we have stressed to you multiple times is boundaries. You still do not have them in place.
> 
> *Stay in your home.* Work on your boundaries. You have none right now.
> 
> *Until that house sells you stay. End of discussion.*
> 
> Separate banking. Stop paying for everything. Start paying half only. When she balks, *offer to pay all as a loan to her, and that is money that will be credited towards your end of the settlement.*
> 
> If she gets mad, balks, calls your bluff - do not engage. You need to wise up sir.
> 
> Boundaries
> 
> Boundaries
> 
> Boundaries
> 
> Get smart. Get your lawyer moving and actively involved. Stop being a sap.


:iagree: Why dig yourself deeper in a financial hole, especially when finances are already tight? Detach, detach, detach, but STAY PUT. If anyone leaves, let it be her.


----------



## Chaparral

How would you grade yourself on doing the 180?

Have you discussed a neighborhood you could both live in and afford with your wife?

Why are you not going for 50/50 custody? Your every weekend plan is way wrong.


----------



## Chuck71

Nucking Futs said:


> Whether your advice (and this therapist that you unconditionally trust because she agrees with you) is harmful depends on what your main concern is. Your advice is not harmful to the marriage, and could conceivably result in the marriage being saved.
> 
> It is, on the other hand, very harmful to Grid. Grid is not his marriage, he is an actual human being with thoughts and feelings of his own, and sacrificing him on the altar of saving the marriage at any cost is what I'm referring to when I say you, and your favorite therapist, are giving harmful advice.
> 
> Grids WW is actively working to undermine him and take as much from him as possible. She started an affair, filed for divorce, lied about no contact and continued the affair while attending retrouville and any other counseling they might have done, and manipulated him to display anger that she can use against him in court. Your advice will do actual harm to Grid in these circumstances. He must lawyer up and protect himself and his relationship with his kids or she will take everything away from him.


I agree 110%....... but sub-consciously did you ever think this is what that poster wants???


----------



## Nucking Futs

Chuck71 said:


> I agree 110%....... but sub-consciously did you ever think this is what that poster wants???


If you're asking if I think Jld subconsciously wants harm for Grid, no. I absolutely reject that notion. I do think that she is totally focused on what's best for the wife and children of this relationship and the marriage as an entity and Grids personal welfare doesn't matter. She'll happily sacrifice Grid if she can save the marriage.

That's actually the key problem I have with her advice. It totally disregards the health of the male partner in favor of saving the marriage to the benefit of the female partner at all costs. Sometimes the BS really needs to sauve qui peut.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Jld absolutely never means harm to anyone and it's stupid to even suggest that simply because you don't like her viewpoint. 

She has a certain view of the power dynamics in marriages sees the male as having a lot of emotional power as compared to the woman. I'd argue that often this is true.....before this started grid held most of the emotional power.

And grid did want to save the marriage and her advice was based on that. 

That's not to say men aren't people with feelings because clearly they are, and his wife caused a train wreck by taking up with someone else. She used it to take back some power and then abused it.

It is best for him to follow through with the divorce at this point.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TheTruthHurts

lifeistooshort said:


> Jld absolutely never means harm to anyone and it's stupid to even suggest that simply because you don't like her viewpoint.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think a lot of people would disagree. Once her viewpoint was expressed, considered, actually followed but ultimately rejected, her true colors really came out. At that point it seems to have become about her not being heard and about her advice not being followed, to the point of throwing guilt and the kids at Grid to salvage her position. All about her and her power IMHO. But to each his own.

Btw it's never stupid to evaluate the motives of others, particularly when considering this is real life on an anonymous forum. It's kind of stupid not to consider that IMO

Other than that I agree with a fair amount of what you typically write.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Nucking Futs said:


> If you're asking if I think Jld subconsciously wants harm for Grid, no. I absolutely reject that notion. *I do think that she is totally focused on what's best for the wife and children of this relationship and the marriage as an entity and Grids personal welfare doesn't matter. She'll happily sacrifice Grid if she can save the marriage.
> 
> That's actually the key problem I have with her advice. It totally disregards the health of the male partner in favor of saving the marriage to the benefit of the female partner at all costs. Sometimes the BS really needs to sauve qui peut*.


YEP! Castrate the man to save the woman and the marriage. I just don't get it, total hypocrisy, because this same advice is not ever given to betrayed wives. Pretty sick.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

thetruthhurts said:


> i think a lot of people would disagree. Once her viewpoint was expressed, considered, actually followed but ultimately rejected, her true colors really came out. At that point it seems to have become about her not being heard and about her advice not being followed, to the point of throwing guilt and the kids at grid to salvage her position. All about her and her power imho. But to each his own.


this..!


----------



## 3Xnocharm

gridcom said:


> This would only be something I would do if she allows me to move out of here now. I sent her a temporary separation agreement last week, and followed up yesterday. She has not responded. The reason she has not responded is because, even though she has had 5 months to prepare for this, she is being selfish here and needs my money. I am nothing but an ATM now. If she doesn't want me, I am ready to go. i found a nice place yesterday to rent; 2 bedrooms for $1850. It's a house, about 4 miles from here. It's perfect. it's actually nicer than my house now, except one less bedroom. I called the person last night and I would like my wife to agree to the temporary agreement so I dont have to live with her and watch this all go down from this close. Being separated would then allow her to carry on with this OM (but not in front of my kid, and not in my house).


You give her too much power, there should never ever be the mindset of her ALLOWING you to do anything any more! She is the cheater, she is the one who destroyed the marriage, let HER move HER happy ass out of there. I understand you want to escape, but that is giving her too much power if you do. She deserves nothing from you except for amicable co-parenting.


----------



## Keepin-my-head-up

I didn't want to come home to an empty house either.
Not gonna blow smoke up your @$$.
It got me several times.
Eventually tho, you learn the empty house is in your head.
In that time I learned the guitar.
Picked it up and poured my woe is me feelingsl out thru my fingertips.
I binge watched Entourage and Californication.

It sucks but you can grow or die on those moments.
Use the pain or wallow.
Sometimes you just want to wallow but eventually, you get sick of wallowing.


----------



## LongWalk

Grid,

Although you did not immediately file for divorce, you did hinder coitus by being hyper vigilant. The radioactive half life of Boy Starbucks the lover took a real hit. Your wife resents you having knocked his sex ranking so low. You killed the dream and to her this is same as you killing the dream she had with you. She doesn't see your love as something positive. You are the downer Dan. Everyone following your thread would probably agree that you actually have a good sense of humor. Your co-dependent relationship reinforces the negative outlook.

One of the things that JLD admires about her husband is that he is strong. Duq heads forward in the face of adversity. JLD doesn't have infidelity to consider, neither does Duq. The overall dynamic of their relationship is to lift each other up. Is there co-dependency in their relationship? Sure, there is in all marriages. 

Your wife's demand to divorce is positive in the sense that it has lit a fire under both your azzes. Perhaps you should be thankful for that. Too bad she had to fall in love with OM to get the courage to pull the trigger.

The greater your indifference and detachment, the clearer things will be – simple logic.

I read somewhere that this song was voted the greatest ever country western song.


----------



## Keepin-my-head-up

Is it Achy Breaky Heart?
Not even going to open the link because I think we can all agree that the best country song is Achy Breaky Heart


----------



## Bibi1031

TheTruthHurts said:


> I think a lot of people would disagree. Once her viewpoint was expressed, considered, actually followed but ultimately rejected, her true colors really came out. At that point it seems to have become about her not being heard and about her advice not being followed, to the point of throwing guilt and the kids at Grid to salvage her position. All about her and her power IMHO. But to each his own.
> 
> Btw it's never stupid to evaluate the motives of others, particularly when considering this is real life on an anonymous forum. It's kind of stupid not to consider that IMO
> 
> Other than that I agree with a fair amount of what you typically write.


Or maybe she is very passionate in what she believes that it is very hard for her to see that her views are actually damaging to Grid. I don't think it's on purpose...a bit of a stubborn streak may add to the mix too. Those are traits many of us possess and we post to the best of our knowledge and belief system. I can't come to believe that anyone here that has been here for long would want to inflict pain on peeps who are already going through emotional HELL.


----------



## TeddieG

Keepin-my-head-up said:


> I didn't want to come home to an empty house either.
> Not gonna blow smoke up your @$$.
> It got me several times.
> Eventually tho, you learn the empty house is in your head.
> In that time I learned the guitar.
> Picked it up and poured my woe is me feelingsl out thru my fingertips.
> I binge watched Entourage and Californication.
> 
> It sucks but you can grow or die on those moments.
> Use the pain or wallow.
> Sometimes you just want to wallow but eventually, you get sick of wallowing.


My divorce was final yesterday and today I was shopping for pianos. My Mom left me some money and I'm spending it on a brand new piano and a bunch of new sheet music. After that, violin lessons. . . And the sh!tty couch and love seat that h always hated (but insisted we buy) are going, in order to make room for it. 

Sorry. Threadjack over.


----------



## lifeistooshort

TheTruthHurts said:


> I think a lot of people would disagree. Once her viewpoint was expressed, considered, actually followed but ultimately rejected, her true colors really came out. At that point it seems to have become about her not being heard and about her advice not being followed, to the point of throwing guilt and the kids at Grid to salvage her position. All about her and her power IMHO. But to each his own.
> 
> Btw it's never stupid to evaluate the motives of others, particularly when considering this is real life on an anonymous forum. It's kind of stupid not to consider that IMO
> 
> Other than that I agree with a fair amount of what you typically write.


Your description happens all the time here. Initially grid did follow a lot of her advice and many of the posters screamed bloody murder. There's hardly any tolerance at all for opinions that counter tam group think. ....especially if they're espoused by a woman. 

As for jld, I'm not sure what you think her motivation is but I'm pretty sure her life will not be impacted by grid's decisions. She's probably the least bitter person here so whether you like her viewpoint or not I don't see what motivation she could possibly have besides saving the marriage. Which I'd tell you that grid still wants even though he understands it's probably not possible. 

Her motivation is far less suspect then half the bitter posters here.

If he came in right now and said he was done and didn't want the marriage she'd support that. Unless I've missed where he said that. ....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Keepin-my-head-up

TeddieG said:


> Keepin-my-head-up said:
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't want to come home to an empty house either.
> Not gonna blow smoke up your @$$.
> It got me several times.
> Eventually tho, you learn the empty house is in your head.
> In that time I learned the guitar.
> Picked it up and poured my woe is me feelingsl out thru my fingertips.
> I binge watched Entourage and Californication.
> 
> It sucks but you can grow or die on those moments.
> Use the pain or wallow.
> Sometimes you just want to wallow but eventually, you get sick of wallowing.
> 
> 
> 
> My divorce was final yesterday and today I was shopping for pianos. My Mom left me some money and I'm spending it on a brand new piano and a bunch of new sheet music. After that, violin lessons. . . And the sh!tty couch and love seat that h always hated (but insisted we buy) are going to make room for it.
> 
> Sorry. Threadjack over.
Click to expand...

No, it's not a thread jack I don't think.
OP, is into playing music.

These are things that he is going to face and go thru himself.
Moving the "insert item wife bought", to accommodate his brand new "whatever".

Pretty much, you get thru the suck and learn to be who you really are.
If you don't like who you are, you change it.

Yeah, it is gonna suck at first.
Then you get used to it.
Then you honestly say, man life pretty damn good.


----------



## just got it 55

gridcom said:


> No, sorry, I don't agree. It's not up to me and I am not willing to live through an affair. It's disrespectful on a level well beyond any grievance my wife had with me.
> 
> It doesn't make it suck any less, but I am not going to sit around and watch her carry on with another man. I am not going to listen to her tell me how awful of a husband I was. I'm addressing my issues and being totally stand up about it.
> 
> Accountability is big with me. I am demonstrating it with myself, but like I said yesterday, I think I bought into some of her enhancing my faults so she could sleep at night and convince herself what she did was OK.
> 
> *Her friend, or her confidant, at church told me this weekend that when my wife went and visited her a few weeks ago, my wife told her that I was still her best friend. She then asked my wife if she thought I was trying to fix my issues, and my wife told her "yes". So, the woman asked her "what's the problem then?" (paraphrasing). And this woman told me my wife's response was something along the lines of "I don't know. It's me I guess"*
> 
> Whatever. I crushed work pretty good yesterday and I plan on doing so again today. I see my IC tomorrow and will ask about some medication, maybe, to help with OCD.
> 
> My wife says I am relentless, and that is undeniable. I can see how that can get on someone's nerves, for sure. Works well in my profession, though.


Grid this got me thinking....

We all know you can't believe a word she says right ?

Is it possible when Mrs. Grid says she loves POSOM she is lying.... I mean to herself ?

She has to tell that lie because no good person could have sex outside of the marriage without love involved ?

Just a theory Your thoughts 

55


----------



## gridcom

ButtPunch said:


> You got nothing on this guy. He is transfer from another marriage site. One of the strongest cases of codependency I have seen.


Oof, I read this thread. Yeah, I guess my head is on a little tighter than others. Not sure it makes me feel better. It just reminds me once again that some people really suck.


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> Oof, I read this thread. Yeah, I guess my head is on a little tighter than others. Not sure it makes me feel better. It just reminds me once again that some people really suck.


He thinks he's saving his family. Three years he's been playing this game..He is his own worst enemy and can't see it. Brutal!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TeddieG

just got it 55 said:


> Grid this got me thinking....
> 
> We all know you can't believe a word she says right ?
> 
> Is it possible when Mrs. Grid says she loves POSOM she is lying.... I mean to herself ?
> 
> She has to tell that lie because no good person could have sex outside of the marriage without love involved ?
> 
> Just a theory Your thoughts
> 
> 55


This makes me curious too. My h told me ages ago that he no desire to marry OW, raise her kid, or be financially responsible for either of them. This was years ago. And then when we were home after his surgery and he was well and the doctor gave him the all clear, he sat on the couch and played Sam Smith's "Stay With Me" over and over and the part about "it's not love, it's clear to see," would blast, and he would keep backing up the song to listen to that part again. 

My h doesn't love this woman. But then again, he doesn't truly and completely attach to people, and is afraid of real intimacy. He's in love with SOMEthing about that situation up there, but it either he's lying that he doesn't love her, lies to her when he tells her he DOES love her.

Or he doesn't know what the hell love is in the first place.


----------



## convert

just got it 55 said:


> Grid this got me thinking....
> 
> We all know you can't believe a word she says right ?
> 
> Is it possible when Mrs. Grid says she loves POSOM she is lying.... I mean to herself ?
> 
> She has to tell that lie because no good person could have sex outside of the marriage without love involved ?
> 
> Just a theory Your thoughts
> 
> 55


I can see this is very possible.

and I think if a women came into the picture wanting Grid, grids wife would possible come out of the "FOG" faster wanting him back.

I am not saying to play that game but it happened in my case.
Like children with their toys not caring about a certain toy until another child starts to play with it.


----------



## LongWalk

> Why Taken Guys Seem Sexier
> *Are women man-stealers at heart? Cosmo gets to the bottom of why women are attracted to unavailable guys.
> By Korin Miller*
> 
> Ever notice how a cute guy will suddenly seem hotter the second he's off the market? Take Ryan Reynolds: He was always adorable, but his serious hunk status didn't kick in until after he hooked up with — then married — Scarlett Johansson. Ditto for Dax Shepard, whom we didn't look at twice until he snagged Kristen Bell. And now that we think about it, Justin Long barely registered a beep on our babe-dar before Drew Barrymore.
> 
> According to a new study, this phenomenon isn't limited to our Hollywood crushes. After asking single women to describe the characteristics of their ideal man, researchers at Oklahoma State University showed them a picture of a guy who was their "perfect match" and asked if they would date him. When the women were told that their perfect match was single,* 59 percent of them said they'd go out with him. When they were told he had a girlfriend, 90 percent said they would*. The conclusion: Merely knowing that a guy is spoken for makes
> him more appealing. Given that this freaky news is bound to set off major alarms (are all women man-stealers at heart?!), we decided to dig deeper to find out what's really behind this taboo attraction.
> 
> *Basic Instinct
> *To some experts, the fact that women automatically find taken men more tempting than single ones makes sense. Back in caveman days, finding an ideal mate was a matter of life and death, says biological anthropologist Helen Fisher, PhD, author of Why We Love. If your man couldn't protect and provide, you wouldn't survive. So when we see a guy in what looks like a successful relationship, the cavegirl part of our brain assumes he must be a good protector/provider and his desirability skyrockets. But on the flip side, men are different — the study found they had no preference for unavailable chicks. This also doesn't surprise Fisher. "Men don't have to do as much digging to get that instinctual sense that a woman would be a good mate," she explains. "They look for physical signs that a woman is fertile, like having a good hip-to-waist ratio, which can be sized up visually on the spot."
> 
> In addition to our primal urges, some of us women are unwittingly drawn to men in relationships because we're seeing them play a purely romantic role, says couples therapist Deborah Dunn, author of Stupid About Men. We watch a woman's boyfriend hold her hand or open a door for her and we assume he's Prince Charming. What we don't see is the moody, burping, fantasy-football-playing dude she's really dating.
> 
> *Why We Aren't All Man-Nabbers*
> Sure, some women take the Angelina route, but most of us check ourselves when we notice that a coworker's boyfriend is a dead ringer for Zac Efron. It's not that we aren't up for a little girl-on-girl competition. It's just that, well, we're so much better than that. "Overall, women have too much respect for other people's relationships," says Debbie Magids, PhD, coauthor of All the Good Ones Aren't Taken. Not to mention that we want to keep our reputations as spotless as possible. "Many smart people love their friends, their careers, their communities," says Magids. "They don't want to mess that up."


----------



## robo1

Grid
I'm sorry you find yourself in this predicament yours was very similar to mine!
I've made all the mistakes believe me!

Please take some advice that's helped me recover and move on from a 20year plus marriage

Do not beg ,plead ,bargain ,cry get angry or show any emotion towards your WW all you are doing if you do is showing weakness!!

Implement 180 and go no contact!!

Do this for your own self preservation ! Not to save your marriage! You need this to get strong mentally

Get your self fit and healthy keep busy buy new clothes haircut etc get yourself looking and feeling the best you can be.

This will put you in good step further down the track!

Grow a set! Man up! Have it in your mind of what you are not prepared to and no longer tolerate from your WW and stick to it.

You will be subjected to what I call mind f&ckery and [email protected] sandwiches 
Under no circumstances should you eat these they are [email protected] and don't taste good!

Your wife is in an affair!!!! 
She professes to be in love with OM

Then Grid , give her what she wants! Let her have him!
But there is consequences for her!

Cut her off completly physically emotionally financially and go completely dark!
You have recognised your faults within the marriage which is a good thing 
WW now needs to recognise hers!!this is unlikely she is in the fog!

Grid! One thing I learned you cannot save your marriage when you are the only one trying! You are flogging a dead horse!
The sooner you truly understand this the better of you will be!
You will beat yourself up time and time again believe me ! it's up to you whether you continue to allow it!

Use your NC and 180 time to better yourself! Get yourself strong to cope with what's coming! Because it gets worse!
You need for your own sanity to move yourself to a place of indifference!
When you get to this place things get a hell of a lot easier
What she says , does , or who she is doing will no longer be your concern!

If reconciliation is what you are hoping for you need to be mindful that as many other TAM members will agree the affair needs to be nuked full remorse from WW needs to be forth coming and you need to know within your own self whether you can fully forgive and trust her again! 
During my 180 and NC it enabled me not to let my WW play her blame shifting ,gas lighting ,cake eating tatics! I was no longer supplying the ingredients for [email protected] sandwiches and cake! And I took away the fork!

Oh yes she tried and tried but when you cut them dead you can start to rebuild your life!!!

Grid,
Life goes on! Although it's not what you had planned or foreseen for the future you want to try desperately to save what you had! Sometimes things get broken so badly they cannot be fixed!
In my situation this was the case and when I learnt to accept this things got a whole lot better!!

Stay strong!!!


----------



## Chuck71

just got it 55 said:


> Frostine
> 
> Crazy Town
> 
> Queen Lizard
> 
> Window Cork
> 
> And Now Tomato Soup
> 
> I love It
> 
> 55


Don't forget Trampoline (LostLove77s)

and Boomerang (WantWifeBack)


----------



## happy as a clam

Chuck71 said:


> ...and Boomerang (WantWifeBack)


Ahhh... Boomerang was a hall-of-famer!!!!

:lol:


----------



## Chaparral

The reason long timers give the same advice is because they have seen what works and what doesn't. You will notice they ever recommend nicing a wayward back.


----------



## Bibi1031

convert said:


> Like children with their toys not caring about a certain toy until another child starts to play with it.



Don't trust that wanting! Just like kids are selfish and don't want to share, WS are exactly the same. A kid will cry for the toy to get it back, but then will toss it to the bottom of the toy box so NoOne can play with it, not even them!

WS do the same. They don't necessarily want the toy, they just don't want anyone to have it. 

But since BS are not toys, screw their selfish, childish, tantrums!


----------



## Chuck71

Sammy64 said:


> Photos are GOOD.. when my ExW left, she left every picture of my daughter, she did not take any at all.. Everyone i have talked with said that is not normal for a mom, to not want to have there baby, baby pictures.. i have kept them all, even the ones where she is in them, as one day my daughter will want them.


When my XW left the house, she left all of her son's pictures. Yes the ones most precious to her.

Her son's 1st everything, her mother, her grandmother. I stored them in the garage and informed her

of their location. There were maybe four "dog swaps" and every time she said not a word of them.

After I shut down the dog swaps, I kept them another month. Nothing said.

Then she found paradise 500 miles away. I took all of them (but three.... those were for her brother,

whom I still respected) to the dump. 

I was not a free storage unit for my XWs things.


----------



## LongWalk

What Tomato Soup told her friend summed it up well. Grid is making a tremendous effort and she is not. But she couldn't tell her friend why exactly.

There is probably a list of reasons that she is in a rut:

1) She has lied about the affair and coming clean is daunting. To her credit she knows that rug sweeping is poor foundation for reconciliation. To be explicit she had sex with OM more than once and admitting this is tough.

2) Stubbornness

3) Depression

4) Low self esteem. She wants to be a success in her own right but doesn't feel that she is.

5) A well of resentment

6) Lack of endorphins (she doesn't work out)

7) She smokes

---------

Grid,

Right now you need to play it like GutPunch. Make the divorce settlement negotiation stone hard. Do not give up 50/50 custody. Split the assets and debt down the middle. Do not engage in negotiations with her one on one. All of your co-dependent covert contracts will pop up. Do not agree to the mediation if is not based on equality.

Secondly, now is the time to be the guy JLD wants you to be. Polite, thoughtful, even tempered, calm in the eye of the storm. But you are checking out. Do not engage in relationship talk. Your marriage is over by her choice.

Do you plan to do Christmas together?


----------



## Chuck71

jld said:


> It just kills me to give up on your marriage, grid.


Is it the empathy for Grid or you self-proclaimed theory going up in smoke?


----------



## gridcom

LongWalk said:


> There is probably a list of reasons that she is in a rut:
> 
> 1) She has lied about the affair and coming clean is daunting. To her credit she knows that rug sweeping is poor foundation for reconciliation. To be explicit she had sex with OM more than once and admitting this is tough.
> 
> *This is obviously something to consider, but I dont believe they've had sex since it's been revealed. I wouldn't be surprised if they were having much more sex before I found out On a 1-10, this is a 7*
> 
> 2) Stubbornness
> 
> *On a scale of 1-10, this is an 11*
> 
> 3) Depression
> 
> *Yep, this too. i don't know to what to degree. My IC told me today that I am also depressed and "raging", although offered no tangible solutions. On a scale of 1-10, lets say a 5*
> 
> 4) Low self esteem. She wants to be a success in her own right but doesn't feel that she is.
> 
> *Not buying this. Until this event, my wife didnt have low self esteem. i think she holds herself in high regard and this whole thing has had her betraying and second guessing herself. On a scale of 1-10, a 3*
> 
> 5) A well of resentment
> 
> *No doubt. Whether it's valid resentment or blame shifting aside, she resents me hard. She resents me that I fought her on ending the marriage and resents me that I essentially put a monkey wrench in her plans to be with this boy more and more. She hates me for that. On a scale of 1-10, a 9*
> 
> 6) Lack of endorphins (she doesn't work out)
> 
> *Interesting, lets call it a 3*
> 
> 7) She smokes
> 
> *She is a weird smoker. In that, she has smoked an average of 2 cigarettes a day for the last 20 years. Sometimes she'll go a few weeks and maybe have 1. Right now is the most I've ever seen her smoke. She must be smoking 8-10 a day right now. So, I'd give it a 4, as well*


----------



## happy as a clam

> This is obviously something to consider, *but I dont believe they've had sex since it's been revealed.* I wouldn't be surprised if they were having much more sex before I found out.


grid, why are you so certain that they are not having sex anymore? Is it not plausible that they aren't actually working all of their supposed shifts, instead meeting somewhere for a rendezvous?

I'm genuinely curious why you seem so sure of this. Perhaps you already explained it and I missed it.

It doesn't seem plausible to me that Coffee Boy would be content just to leave sappy love songs on Spotify.


----------



## Chuck71

nucking futs said:


> if you're asking if i think jld subconsciously wants harm for grid, no. I absolutely reject that notion. I do think that she is totally focused on what's best for the wife and children of this relationship and the marriage as an entity and grids personal welfare doesn't matter. She'll happily sacrifice grid if she can save the marriage.
> 
> That's actually the key problem i have with her advice. It totally disregards the health of the male partner in favor of saving the marriage to the benefit of the female partner at all costs. Sometimes the bs really needs to sauve qui peut.


gold!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## gridcom

happy as a clam said:


> grid, why are you so certain that they are not having sex anymore? Is it not plausible that they aren't actually working their supposed shifts, instead meeting somewhere for a rendezvous?
> 
> I'm genuinely curious why you seem so sure of this. Perhaps you already explained it and I missed it.
> 
> It doesn't seem plausible to me that Coffee Boy would be content just to leave sappy love songs on Spotify.


Because she drives straight to work and the comes home straight from work, 100% of the time. otherwise, she has the kids, or she is going to her church group (which she does). Or she'll go the supermarket, but I'm not sure how she has time to run over to him, boink him, grab groceries two more towns away and do all of that in 50 minutes. Remember, I am here in the house pretty much all the time. And, sadly, I mean ALL the damn time

If she is, it's literally in a public parking lot. And despite some of the horror stories I've read here, and boy oh boy....., I just don't believe that she is that low class.


----------



## happy as a clam

gridcom said:


> Because she drives straight to work and the comes home straight from work, 100% of the time. otherwise, she has the kids, or she is going to her church group (which she does). Or she'll go the supermarket, but I'm not sure how she has time to run over to him, boink him, grab groceries on two more towns away and do all of that in 50 minutes. Remember, I am here in the house pretty much all the time. And, sadly, I mean ALL the damn time


Ok. I guess my only question is, are you certain she is really working the shifts she says she is working? Do you have any way to check that or verify? I suppose her paycheck would reflect hours worked, but then I'm not sure you even see her paycheck stubs.

Sorry if I seem intrusive .


----------



## 3Xnocharm

gridcom said:


> Because she drives straight to work and the comes home straight from work, 100% of the time. otherwise, she has the kids, or she is going to her church group (which she does). Or she'll go the supermarket, but I'm not sure how she has time to run over to him, boink him, grab groceries two more towns away and do all of that in 50 minutes. Remember, I am here in the house pretty much all the time. And, sadly, I mean ALL the damn time
> 
> If she is, it's literally in a public parking lot. And despite some of the horror stories I've read here, and boy oh boy....., I just don't believe that she is that low class.


She made time before, and yes she IS that low class! This is denial on your part, Grid, the woman is a low life POS. The sooner you grasp that the sooner you will be able to move yourself forward.


----------



## gridcom

3Xnocharm said:


> She made time before, and yes she IS that low class! This is denial on your part, Grid, the woman is a low life POS. The sooner you grasp that the sooner you will be able to move yourself forward.


Nah, she made time before because she was going out after work to the bars with her co-workers before she came home. My "controlling abusive" self somehow didn't really care that she was doing that back then and let her do whatever she wanted because I totally trusted something like this wouldn't happen. I always worked until 1am anyway, so by the time she walked in I was just getting done working


----------



## Chuck71

happy as a clam said:


> Ahhh... Boomerang was a hall-of-famer!!!!
> 
> :lol:


I was late on his thread..... but when WWB finally "got it" I was like the black guy on the Matrix, the ship

driver, at the end of Matrix 2, watching Neo save Morpheus and the keymaker

when he threw his hands up in disbelief and amazement..... and dropped his head to the control panel. 

I was so happy for that guy I farted!


----------



## Chaparral

gridcom said:


> Because she drives straight to work and the comes home straight from work, 100% of the time. otherwise, she has the kids, or she is going to her church group (which she does). Or she'll go the supermarket, but I'm not sure how she has time to run over to him, boink him, grab groceries two more towns away and do all of that in 50 minutes. Remember, I am here in the house pretty much all the time. And, sadly, I mean ALL the damn time
> 
> If she is, it's literally in a public parking lot. And despite some of the horror stories I've read here, and boy oh boy....., I just don't believe that she is that low class.


Taking off during work for a quickie is common. One wife butt dialed her husband from a closet at work. Others have met up in grocery parking lots, parking lots in general, parks, parking lot at work, store room, janitor closets/rooms at the mall, the options are limitless.

Year long affair, one time, that would be a first here if proven.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Chaparral said:


> Taking off during work for a quickie is common. One wife butt dialed her husband from a closet at work. Others have met up in grocery parking lots, parking lots in general, parks, parking lot at work, store room, janitor closets/rooms at the mall, the options are limitless.
> 
> Year long affair, one time, that would be a first here if proven.


Also hard to believe she would be head-over-heels in love with PosOM if it was only once. And continue to have those feelings to this day.

TS is either mental, or he's got one magic twig and berries.


----------



## happy as a clam

grid, you still haven't answered this question:



happy as a clam said:


> Ok. I guess my only question is, *are you certain she is really working the shifts she says she is working?* Do you have any way to check that or verify? I suppose her paycheck would reflect hours worked, but then I'm not sure you even see her paycheck stubs.
> 
> Sorry if I seem intrusive .


----------



## gridcom

ThreeStrikes said:


> Also hard to believe she would be head-over-heels in love with PosOM if it was only once. And continue to have those feelings to this day.
> 
> TS is either mental, or he's got one magic twig and berries.


Nice one. Hard to argue. 

And worth noting, it's not the affair I have an issue with. To this day I contend that, regardless of the failure of the marriage before the affair, she was unhappy and emotionally unfulfilled and she decided to cheat. Ok. So, it's also my contention that a good amount of otherwise "good woman" can make that mistake. I know some of you will groan, but we all have our viewpoints. I'm not saying I don't blame her or certainly that she was "right". Please don't misunderstand. it's just that, knowing the nuances of our marriage prior to the affair, I was working crazy hours + I took her for granted for quite some time + she harbored some bitterness over the way I handled her being bedridden while pregnant with our second child + our fight back in March that was pretty intense (over housework) + having some young boy at her job tell her she's awesome and making her feel good. I can see how that elixir of things would convince her it's not all that wrong to fall emotionally for this guy, and then adding emotional energy, eventually f&cking him.

What I am not happy with is everything that has happened SINCE and AROUND the affair. Everything AFTER. Mainly the lies and the common sense that this was a huge mistake that really hurt essentially everyone in your house to some degree, all of your friends and family are trying to politely tell you you should work on your marriage if your husband is willing to forgive and loves you and he's up for the challenge. And then, finally, the fact that in trying to fix the marriage, I had one singular boundary (NC) and she crossed it and that gives me no choice now but to shift gears (which still sucks)

It is hard to believe she would still be head over heals in love with him only having sex one time though, that does make a whole lot of sense. Especially since there's been no indication they've spent any time outside of work. I think that if she did spend some time with him, the "myth" of what _he represents_ to her would be destroyed. And maybe I should have done what was suggested and let her see that for herself, rather than walk around with a fantasy of what he's like in the daylight. It's not him she loves, it's what he represents. Which is still poor judgement, because I represent the last 20 years, most of them happy, the father of the 2 kids, a good father, a good person. And I rolled up my sleeves and did what I could

And she may be mental. There is that.


----------



## gridcom

happy as a clam said:


> grid, you still haven't answered this question:


yes


----------



## Chuck71

Grid..... your thread is harder to keep up with than ReGroup's. Seriously......

Few observations...... ThreeStrikes was a Jedi.... I think he needs to be admitted
to the Jedi Counsel. 

Grid.... We all know there are gender biases going on here. I usually post on threads started by guys..... 98% of other guys do too. If I had to take a ten person panel to give un-biased opinions, at LEAST three would be females..... Turnera, 3xnocharm, and Happy as a clam. I have known of them for at least a couple years and..... when I read their posts.... 99% of the time I am in full agreement. You are getting the same advice from both genders, minus a handful of "others." 

It is HARD letting go...... very hard. Being with your kids and W, that is all you know. But isn't that what a man is supposed to do?..... raise kids, provide for the family? My XW told me.... way back in 2001, I was a great provider but was not a family man. Granted I worked 70-80 hours per week because she had medical issues.... but never seemed to skip doing things she liked. "How about you get off your arse and get a freaking job and I can be home more?" She never complained again..... and got a job.

"Some" (not all by any stretch) will balance this argument back and forth, you aren't beating your brains out working but being a dutiful father, -you aren't a provider- and if you work too much.... you get the point.

Your life is yours to live, not your spouse's. You fought more than you thought you could, longer than any of us would have. Personally, I do not think you were crazy to keep on fighting..... you knew what you wanted and went after it. Schit.... I commend that. No one can ever say you quit..... you were a champion, at least in my book.

LBHmidwest has two girls..... his STBXW is BSC..... several posters on your thread have posted there too. Check it out.... you aren't alone Grid. Ask LW about other threads, he IS the TAM librarian .... LOL.

Grid.... you know what you need to do. It hurts doing it because she is not included. Yes that hurts.... been down that road with Window Cork. If you want a good laugh, I will tell you how she received that nickname from Conrad. Tomato Soup was very fitting...... anytime I see TS I think of Twisted Sister back in the 80's. But your STBXW is "twisted." 

You WILL make it. Your girls will too. Your oldest..... give it about 7-9 years.... but she will begin "looking out for her daddy." I have said this on my personal thread often..... -the old raise the young and the young then look after the old- .... that is one of the few things that are still true (mostly) and has not been clawed away at by the PC monsters.

T/J ......... HappyMan64..... mine ended up being treatable and not as bad as expected. I will update my thread ASAP. Now to get an avatar fitting for you...... (I am tech dummy)


----------



## happyman64

> It is hard to believe she would still be head or heals in love with him only having sex one time though, that does make a whole lot of sense. Especially since there's been no indication they've spent any time outside of work. I think that if she did spend some time with him, the "myth" of what he representsto her would be destroyed. And maybe I should have done what was suggested and let her see that for herself, rather than walk around with a fantasy of what he's like in the daylight.
> 
> And she may be mental. There is that.


You should have "Let Her Go".

The only way a stubborn spouse gets over a fantasy like that is reality.

She needs to see the OM just for what her is in the daylight.

And yes she is mental. All woman are mental. And before every woman starts going crazy; yes most men are mental too.

The degree of "mental" is what I was always most concerned about when it came to women I dated or had a serious relationship with....


----------



## happy as a clam

Excellent post (#3777) by @Chuck71 (and NOT just because I'm mentioned in it .)

That one is print-worthy, grid.


----------



## turnera

gridcom said:


> It is hard to believe she would still be head over heals in love with him only having sex one time though, that does make a whole lot of sense.


My take is that, in her fog, she expected that once she told you, you would magically disappear and she could slip her loverboy into the house where you used to be, and THAT is why she told you - so you would leave. I've seen quite a few women do this, and not understand that the husband won't just bow out gracefully.

And I've seen even more women turn around immediately when the husband says 'fine, then get the hell out, I'm done with you.'


----------



## gridcom

turnera said:


> My take is that, in her fog, she expected that once she told you, you would magically disappear and she could slip her loverboy into the house where you used to be, and THAT is why she told you - so you would leave. I've seen quite a few women do this, and not understand that the husband won't just bow out gracefully.


I believe this 100%


----------



## azteca1986

I'm not sure if this helps at all, but this account of the affair has always bothered me and is also an anomaly here:


gridcom said:


> Also, I should say that when my wife says she had a "year long affair" she has ALWAYS defined that (from the beginning) as her having feelings for him and him not knowing until maybe April of this year. DDay was July 7. Remember, I saw all the texts between them, and they were infrequent before April (as in one a month as co-workers may do), then in April it was one a week, then in late June (when I was away on business) it became kissing and "such"** in the parking lot until the did the deeeeeed in his house on July 7
> 
> * "and such."


Usually spouses hate to use the term "affair". In EA's it's always euphemisms such as the old favourite "just friends", "inappropriate friendship" or "friendship that crossed the line". Yet your WW is happy to use the term where even a nine year old girl would say she had a crush - _her having feelings for him and him not knowing_. And the lack of texts, back this up.

Odd.


----------



## Bibi1031

I dunno, but the more I read about Ms. Grid, the more I see her affair as an exit affair.

*My take is that, in her fog, she expected that once she told you, you would magically disappear and she could slip her loverboy into the house where you used to be, and THAT is why she told you - so you would leave. I've seen quite a few women do this, and not understand that the husband won't just bow out gracefully.*

This quoted above really brings that home. My midlife crisis X thought the same thing. He wanted OW to come live with him and his kids here i America and be a happy family. And yes, I would magically disappear since I would probably go crazy over losing him. Yeah right!

:slap: :slap: :slap:


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Bibi1031 said:


> I dunno, but the more I read about Ms. Grid, the more I see her affair as an exit affair.


I agree 100%!!


----------



## gridcom

3Xnocharm said:


> I agree 100%!!


For certain. I think we had that figured out back in late July though.


----------



## LongWalk

Grid,

My ex is spending Christmas with her boyfriend's family. Our daughters, 18 and 20, are not invited. I can understand this. They are way too old to become step daughters. Anyway that means that the girls and I are planning Christmas and Christmas eve here in Sweden. Swedes don't eat turkey. The tradition is ham, which my girls don't want. The vote is for duck or chicken. Every year I face the same shxt tests, D20, an avowed feminist, will try to make me do the dishes. I will not let her goad me into losing my temper.

My mother, 85, is becoming frail. She will be by herself as my brothers will go to be with the families of their wives. My mother is invited to go along to one place, but SIL's sister is very dysfunctional and manipulative even by TAM standards, so I can understand my mom, staying home with the three dogs (one hers, two my brother's). She feeds them perfectly good shredded wheat as dog treats. My brother's dog was a street urchin in Singapore. He's small but bright. He catches the shredded wheat. My mother's dog is big black lab that will eat any crap and kill baby rabbits in a single bite.

Actually my mother's dog has a colorful history. She was conceived when a b'tch in heat hopped the puppy farm fence and had a quick romance with a neighbor's lab like dog – sneaky creatures dogs.

When my brother introduced the Singapore dog to my mother's big black lab mutt, he couldn't understand why he wasn't the dominant animal but size matters. Both of them have been surgically modified to reduce instinctual drives but they spend hours in the kitchen engaged in doggy foreplay, ear chewing, paw pressing, etc. The little guy gamely tries to hump his girlfriend but he can't do it anymore. In case, she only lets him go at in for a bit and then she forces him to lie on his back. That will be my mom's Christmas. Shredded wheat, endless dog hair shedding under the designer Finnish round table. My mom drinks whisky every night to contest her insomnia. I'll see if we can play Scrabble on Facebook.

Usually, Christmas means buying some sort of Apple products or head phones or something for daughters. But I don't feel inspired as a shopper.

Are you going to suck it up and do one last family Christmas? Bet your girls would like a dog.


----------



## gridcom

LongWalk said:


> one last family Christmas.


This makes me extremely sad. Those four words in a row like that.
My wife has to work on XMas day, but I guess we'll do XMas morning like every other year.

My sister is having family over for XMAS eve, but my wife wants to keep the kids here so she can have her holiday with them. I can understand that. I'm sure I'll just stay here and act like it's every other Thursday night or whatever.

One Last Family Christmas.

What The F^ck.


----------



## MRR

gridcom said:


> Because she drives straight to work and the comes home straight from work, 100% of the time. otherwise, she has the kids, or she is going to her church group (which she does). Or she'll go the supermarket, but I'm not sure how she has time to run over to him, boink him, grab groceries two more towns away and do all of that in 50 minutes. Remember, I am here in the house pretty much all the time. And, sadly, I mean ALL the damn time
> 
> If she is, it's literally in a public parking lot. And despite some of the horror stories I've read here, and boy oh boy....., I just don't believe that she is that low class.


I have to say that your 'reasons' may seem perfectly logical but they prove nothing. In fact, if they had sex once they almost certainly had sex more than that. All the things you think she didnt do-- for instance running over to have sex on the way to the supermarket-- are likley exactly what she has been doing.


----------



## ButtPunch

She's having sex or she is not.

None of it matters.

Let her go.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ms. GP

ButtPunch said:


> She's having sex or she is not.
> 
> None of it matters.
> 
> Let her go.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have to agree with you there. All the speculating and wondering on what she is doing or not is going to put you in a very bad head space. I think the name of the game now is to try to distract yourself from thinking about her. I mean c'mon you live in one of the funnest cities in the world, Get out of the house, do some Christmas shopping, do cheesy tourist stuff with the kids, go to lunch with friends, etc. You had a life before this woman and you will have one after.


----------



## TeddieG

Ms. GP said:


> I have to agree with you there. All the speculating and wondering on what she is doing or not is going to put you in a very bad head space. I think the name of the game now is to try to distract yourself from thinking about her. I mean c'mon you live in one of the funnest cities in the world, Get out of the house, do some Christmas shopping, do cheesy tourist stuff with the kids, go to lunch with friends, etc. You had a life before this woman and you will have one after.


Grid, this morning on the way to work, I was asking myself why I held on for 7 years. There were issues of his mental health. I've done extensive research on anesthesia on people with circulation and dementia issues, and I am even more convinced that the three surgeries he had for kidney stones had huge consequences for his well-being mentally 7 years ago. There are studies that show people can take months to recover cognitively from anesthesia, especially if they already have health challenges (h has heart blockage and blood pressure issues) and in August when he had his surgery, he almost died on the table; his blood pressure dropped dangerously low, more than once, and he had a cardiac event at 2 am that brought the whole nursing staff on the floor scrambling in (they picked it up on the heart monitor; neither I nor h had any indication until they showed up). It took him 8 hours to wake up from the anesthesia because of what they had to do on the table to bring his blood pressure back up. 

Anyway, the point is, whatever may have contributed to h's problems and disconnect from reality and desire for recovered youth (I think your wife messing with this guy ten years younger says something about that for her as well), I finally realized something really important in my car on the way to work this morning. 

I realized that if his were a garden variety form of infidelity, that would be bad enough, but battling his mental and physical health issues made me realize, honestly, many times over the course of the last 7 years that I was going to lose, but oh how badly I wanted him to wake up and realize his issues could be treated in far more productive and useful ways than shagging a *****. And I kept thinking if he addressed his physical issues (which he was forced to do last April after a heart event, and which resulted in finding the aneurysm that necessitated the surgery) his mental health issues would improve. Sadly I was wrong, and after the surgery, and then my mother's death, he was more averse to accepting his situation than ever, and entered his final rebellion. 

So in the car this morning, I kept asking myself, if you knew it was a lost cause, why did you keep the door open and the porchlight on? Over the course of 7 years I thought he might get home and stay home, and then I realized that each time he came home he stayed longer before he left, and his max was a month, last summer, and then two months, this summer, from the time he arrived home in June and left at the end of August after his recovery period was over. I realized that if I waited for his "staying home" time to get longer and longer he'd be 100 before he got home and just quit leaving. 

So, I asked myself again, in the car, given all that, if you knew it was a lost cause, why did you keep the door open and the porchlight on. And all of a sudden, because it is the holidays perhaps, _it dawned on me that hope is a much preferable emotion than despair_ and hope feeds us justification to keep it alive. 

In some ways, if emotions had characteristics or qualities, in my case, hope was a self-serving emotion that perpetrated itself, and the fear of despair can be a deceptive or misleading emotion. And I've already posted about how I let hope turn into expectations, which definitely resulted in a let-down on more occasions than I care to remember. 

Ironically, now that the divorce is final, I don't feel despair; I feel relief and I feel liberated and I actually feel sorry a little bit for the OW, since h is going to be the same manic depressive guy with a short fuse and a worldview that consists of navel-gazing. He's going to be just as annoyed with her family when he is not the center of attention at gatherings that he was with my family at my mother's funeral. Now, I realize I don't have kids with him (he has five kids that have been mine for 20 years but they're adults), and I don't have to see him with the OW or other women, but I DON'T feel despair. 

Don't let the holidays get you down, and let a healthy form of hope assist you to be on the lookout, as you already seem to be, for a place to live when the house is sold, and maybe a neighborhood you like better. Change is hard, but very often, it can be good. Dare I say it can be hopeful?


----------



## lifeistooshort

ButtPunch said:


> She's having sex or she is not.
> 
> None of it matters.
> 
> Let her go.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This. Who the hvll cares how many times they had sex? What would it change in this situation?

He's temporary anyway. If you guys had split up 3 months ago he'd likely already be gone.


----------



## LongWalk

She could become pregnant and that would change things.


----------



## Bibi1031

gridcom said:


> For certain. I think we had that figured out back in late July though.


Well then reconciliation is NOT possible if the WS has left the damn building by the time D-Day happened. This marriage didn't stand a chance because she was just going through the motions to prove to you and everyone else she tried. What a load of crap on her part! 

Hopefully this will help other poor betrayed spouses. Exit affairs equals dead marriages. It is what it is...sigh.


----------



## Thundarr

ButtPunch said:


> She's having sex or she is not.
> 
> None of it matters.
> Let her go.
> 
> 
> lifeistooshort said:
> 
> 
> 
> This. Who the hvll cares how many times they had sex? What would it change in this situation?
> 
> He's temporary anyway. If you guys had split up 3 months ago he'd likely already be gone.
Click to expand...

I agree. It doesn't matter if they has sex a thousand times because once was enough. And your consolation comment LHG doesn't matter either. Grid shouldn't care if they are together for a week or fifty years because Grid letting go is part of his personal growth. My ex married the OM and they were together for fifteen years. Other than co-parenting though, they were not my concern. Does that make me smart? H3ll freaking yes it does and that's why life is really good for me now. I hope you can look back twenty years from now Grid and be proud of how you changed from this.


----------



## Keepin-my-head-up

LongWalk said:


> She could become pregnant and that would change things.


Whoa!
That could totally happen.
Especially if she is that in love with the guy.
She may be obsessed to have his baby.

But that is the kind of stuff that happens when life goes on.
That is just another example of why you have to protect what is yours.
In the end, what is yours is also for your kids.
Your wife may be in such a stupor with the guy for a time that your kids may take a back seat.
Maybe not but don't take the chance with your kids


----------



## gridcom

Keepin-my-head-up said:


> Whoa!
> That could totally happen.
> Especially if she is that in love with the guy.
> She may be obsessed to have his baby.
> 
> But that is the kind of stuff that happens when life goes on.
> That is just another example of why you have to protect what is yours.
> In the end, what is yours is also for your kids.
> Your wife may be in such a stupor with the guy for a time that your kids may take a back seat.
> Maybe not but don't take the chance with your kids


She can't have any more children.


----------



## LongWalk

There is hope that OM is an evolutionary dead end.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

gridcom said:


> Nice one. Hard to argue.
> 
> And worth noting, it's not the affair I have an issue with. To this day I contend that, regardless of the failure of the marriage before the affair, she was unhappy and emotionally unfulfilled and she decided to cheat. Ok. So, it's also my contention that a good amount of otherwise "good woman" can make that mistake. I know some of you will groan, but we all have our viewpoints. I'm not saying I don't blame her or certainly that she was "right". Please don't misunderstand. it's just that, knowing the nuances of our marriage prior to the affair, I was working crazy hours + I took her for granted for quite some time + she harbored some bitterness over the way I handled her being bedridden while pregnant with our second child + our fight back in March that was pretty intense (over housework) + having some young boy at her job tell her she's awesome and making her feel good. I can see how that elixir of things would convince her it's not all that wrong to fall emotionally for this guy, and then adding emotional energy, eventually f&cking him.


You had clients, coworkers and people you spent all that extra time with, why did you stay faithful? This is why I make a distinction between an affair being a choice not a mistake. No, not refuting anything you said that contributed to her terrible choice.


----------



## gridcom

phillybeffandswiss said:


> You had clients, coworkers and people you spent all that extra time with, why did you stay faithful? This is why I make a distinction between an affair being a choice not a mistake. No, not refuting anything you said that contributed to her terrible choice.


I guess because I value honor, honesty, and integrity higher than those who dishonor, aren't honest, and lack integrity. And, as much as it pains me to say it, my wife falls into that category.


----------



## Evinrude58

Grid is still blaming himself for all the problems in his marriage and STILL can't knock her off that pedestal in his mind. Grid, let me let you in on a secret: NOBODY is perfect and NOBODY has a perfect marriage. In spite of that, some people don't cheat. Your wife did. She is unremorseful and blames you for everything. That kind of thinking on HER part (it's all YOUR fault) is what you call WRONG THINKING. You own your faults. Has she none? Of course she does. The fact is that you did love her and could put up with her faults, but she did not love you or your marriage enough to work out the problems that you had, and the problems that she had. She showed you she wasn't willing to work that stuff out, and then showed you how little she thought of you and your marriage together by sabotaging it completely with an affair. Yes, I agree an exit affair because she knew darned well that this guy was not husband material. My wife had exit affairS. She thought so little of our marriage that she didn't give a F*** either.

Put this woman in your rearview mirror and go on with your life like you are trying to do. FInd a person in which the dynamic between you is uplifting and supportive. IT will happen! Look for someone who can accept blame and say they're sorry when they're clearly in the wrong. You will find, as I have, that when someone accepts their booger and says they are sorry and means it--you will probably NOT EVEN BE ANGRY! 

I will be so glad when you get to 50K feet like they say, and can see this for what it is, and see her for what she is. Only then will you be able to let her go and have the chance to have a little mental peace and happiness.


----------



## gridcom

Evinrude58 said:


> Grid is still blaming himself for all the problems in his marriage and STILL can't knock her off that pedestal in his mind. Grid, let me let you in on a secret: NOBODY is perfect and NOBODY has a perfect marriage. In spite of that, some people don't cheat. Your wife did. She is unremorseful and blames you for everything. That kind of thinking on HER part (it's all YOUR fault) is what you call WRONG THINKING. You own your faults. Has she none? Of course she does. The fact is that you did love her and could put up with her faults, but she did not love you or your marriage enough to work out the problems that you had, and the problems that she had. She showed you she wasn't willing to work that stuff out, and then showed you how little she thought of you and your marriage together by sabotaging it completely with an affair. Yes, I agree an exit affair because she knew darned well that this guy was not husband material. My wife had exit affairS. She thought so little of our marriage that she didn't give a F*** either.
> 
> Put this woman in your rearview mirror and go on with your life like you are trying to do. FInd a person in which the dynamic between you is uplifting and supportive. IT will happen! Look for someone who can accept blame and say they're sorry when they're clearly in the wrong. You will find, as I have, that when someone accepts their booger and says they are sorry and means it--you will probably NOT EVEN BE ANGRY!
> 
> I will be so glad when you get to 50K feet like they say, and can see this for what it is, and see her for what she is. Only then will you be able to let her go and have the chance to have a little mental peace and happiness.


We went to first mediation today. $800 bucks / See ya!

It was fine, I guess. I'm honestly looking forward to getting past this whole ordeal. The fact of the matter is, to this very minute, the lack of money has thus far only been words and numbers being bandied about and only spoken. The actual reality of _*"LESS"*_ is something I am convinced only I understand. And I made it clear that I am not willing to live with less than what I have. I have very little pleasures in my life as it is. I am happy being a simple man, with simple pleasures. A good sound system, MLB.tv, a softball glove, the internet, AppleTV, and a working macbook air is really all I need. Maybe an occasional 1/2 pound of imported prosciutto. I drive a 6 year old banged up car. Does it have heat and air conditioning? Cool. That's all I need. i wear T- shirts and blue jeans, every day. I want to live in a safe neighborhood, and live alone. My KIDS can have all the rest. I am not willing to part with ANY of the above


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Evinrude58 said:


> Grid is still blaming himself for all the problems in his marriage and STILL can't knock her off that pedestal in his mind.


I see a large amount of progress since his counseling. He screamed some people out of the thread, if they dared tell him it was equal faults in this marriage. He has now noted her stubbornness, her desire to go out, her slight nit picking, blame shifting and lies.

He ignored all of those clues for 6 months, I'd say she's off the pedestal, but he is still trying to polishing off the tarnish.


----------



## Evinrude58

gridcom said:


> We went to first mediation today. $800 bucks / See ya!
> 
> It was fine, I guess. I'm honestly looking forward to getting past this whole ordeal. The fact of the matter is, to this very minute, the lack of money has thus far only been words and numbers being bandied about and only spoken. The actual reality of _*"LESS"*_ is something I am convinced only I understand. And I made it clear that I am not willing to live with less than what I have. I have very little pleasures in my life as it is. I am happy being a simple man, with simple pleasures. A good sound system, MLB.tv, a softball glove, the internet, AppleTV, and a working macbook air is really all I need. Maybe an occasional 1/2 pound of imported prosciutto. I drive a 6 year old banged up car. Does it have heat and air conditioning? Cool. That's all I need. i wear T- shirts and blue jeans, every day. I want to live in a safe neighborhood, and live alone. My KIDS can have all the rest. I am not willing to part with ANY of the above[/QUOTE/]
> 
> Indeed, progress has been made. Stick to your guns on this Grid. If you don't have enough money to take care of yourself, you can't take care of your kids, either. 50/50 custody!!!!!!
> 
> A lodge buddy going through the same as you met a really nice woman recently and although he handled his divorce well, was still sending his ex flowers and such over a year after his divorce, trying to reconcile (no known infidelity on her part). He now sees more clearly and is putting her memory in the back of his mind, same as me, and is MUCH more happy. Says he is happier now than he ever was with the ex.
> 
> I am wishing you some closure on all of this, so that you can be happy again.


----------



## gridcom

Evinrude58 said:


> You will find, as I have, that when someone accepts their booger and says they are sorry and means it--you will probably NOT EVEN BE ANGRY!


YES. Please someone who owns their faults, who can say sorry, who can compromise.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Thundarr said:


> I agree. It doesn't matter if they has sex a thousand times because once was enough. And your consolation comment LHG doesn't matter either. Grid shouldn't care if they are together for a week or fifty years because Grid letting go is part of his personal growth. My ex married the OM and they were together for fifteen years. Other than co-parenting though, they were not my concern. Does that make me smart? H3ll freaking yes it does and that's why life is really good for me now. I hope you can look back twenty years from now Grid and be proud of how you changed from this.


Why the snarky attitude? It's not a consolation remark, it's a nod to the fact that grid is adamant the other guy not be in the house.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

gridcom said:


> I guess because I value honor, honesty, and integrity higher than those who dishonor, aren't honest, and lack integrity. And, as much as it pains me to say it, my wife falls into that category.


True. My point is there were many other options, some of which you just named,to choose before going the cheating route.


----------



## gridcom

Yeah. It's Friday and the sun just went down. I've been working so banana's this week. I don't know if it's an _unprecedented_ amount of rain drops I am trying to catch and make sense of, being the end of the year. Or, if I just dont have the spirit. Or maybe a combination of both.

My wife announced she was taking the kids for the weekend to her sisters. I would usually go, but no longer. I have a weekend to myself (essentially). Or at least a full day and night. And I can pretty much go to any concert I would want to in NYC, but there is a severe lack of any good concerts tomorrow in all of NYC/Westchester. Budos Band at Warsaw but I need to get someone to go.

I have some friends upstate, but they are all married, etc. Third wheel? eh....

Yes, I am being a little bit of a baby. Have a good weekend everybody


----------



## farsidejunky

Reach out to @happyman64

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## LongWalk

Meet HappyMan in real life for us. Tell him we are bucking for him.

Walk around the Met and look at the art.

New York is hoot.


----------



## Thundarr

lifeistooshort said:


> Why the snarky attitude? It's not a consolation remark, it's a nod to the fact that grid is adamant the other guy not be in the house.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I wasn't intentionally snarky or negative lifeistooshort but I reread my comment and see why you read it that way. To clarify, I agree with what you told Grid; that it doesn't matter if she's been with this other guy once or a bunch of times. And I also agree with you that his wife and this other guy will almost certainly not last.

I was just adding that it also doesn't matter if her and the OM last or not either. So the 'consolation prize' remark a reminder to Gridcom to separate the issues.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Thundarr said:


> I wasn't intentionally snarky or negative lifeistooshort but I reread my comment and see why you read it that way. To clarify, I agree with what you told Grid; that it doesn't matter if she's been with this other guy once or a bunch of times. And I also agree with you that his wife and this other guy will almost certainly not last.
> 
> I was just adding that it also doesn't matter if her and the OM last or not either. So the 'consolation prize' remark a reminder to Gridcom to separate the issues.


Fair enough, I get interpreted as snarky all the time when I don't mean to be 

And i agree that in the end he shouldn't concern himself with whether om sticks around. I don't even think he should concern himself with whether the guy comes into the house when he's gone, assuming of course it's him that moves out. It's not healthy for him to try to maintain that level of control, and it sets a bad precident because it opens the door for her to stick her nose in his private life. 

I know he says he's not going to date anytime soon but he might meet someone he likes and change his mind. 

And it keeps him from detaching.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Yeah, I agree. Let that small aspect go. We have a few specific threads where everyone was screaming "well I wouldn't let blah blah blah," then the court said "yeah, whatever" and the kids share a home with the OM. There are a few threads that were awful and a very very small part of me always wonders if they are true.

I don't care what anyone states, judges look at petty crap harshly IMO.


----------



## ButtPunch

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Yeah, I agree. Let that small aspect go. We have a few specific threads where everyone was screaming "well I wouldn't let blah blah blah," then the court said "yeah, whatever" and the kids share a home with the OM. e that were awful and a very very small part of me always wonders if they are true.
> 
> I don't care what anyone states, judges look at petty crap harshly IMO.


Exactly....A judge sees that in the papers and will think Grid is a control freak and form a negative opinion of Grid based on that one stipulation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thundarr

lifeistooshort said:


> Fair enough, I get interpreted as snarky all the time when I don't mean to be


I say it's because our sincerity IRL is so blatantly apparent (body language, facial expression, history among those who know us, etc) that we aren't prepared to know the best words to use when that's all we have to communicate with .



lifeistooshort said:


> And i agree that in the end he shouldn't concern himself with whether om sticks around. I don't even think he should concern himself with whether the guy comes into the house when he's gone, assuming of course it's him that moves out. It's not healthy for him to try to maintain that level of control, and it sets a bad precident because it opens the door for her to stick her nose in his private life.
> 
> I know he says he's not going to date anytime soon but he might meet someone he likes and change his mind.
> 
> And it keeps him from detaching.


Agreed. It's critical that Grid detaches from everything not related to himself and his children.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Thundarr said:


> I say it's because our sincerity IRL is so blatantly apparent (body language, facial expression, history among those who know us, etc) that we aren't prepared to know the best words to use when that's all we have to communicate with .
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed. It's critical that Grid detaches from everything not related to himself and his children.




Yeah, that's very true. I have a big mouth and questionable filter and people seem to like me. I'm not all that professional in my interviews, I let everyone know who I am, and have gotten job offers on all of the last 6 interviews i've had. My HR hb can't believe what I get away with.

I think it's because, and many on tam won't believe this, I'm quite charming irl.

Face to face I'm friendly and easy to be around and people are comfortable with me. And I'm not a phony so you never have to watch your back around me and I think people sense that. That's something you don't always get in the workplace. 

But when I'm typing I come across much differently. .....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

Ah Grid. Nothing like a little peace when the kids are away.

My 21yo comes home from college in Boston tomorrow.
My 14yo had a Christmas dance at school this evening.
My 15yo was too cool to go to the dance this evening.

And my wife is right next to me texting on her iPhone while I peck away on my iPad.

Things to do? Bryant Park is hopping. The shops are in full swing, the park is now a rink and temperature is mild. Go hit the city and watch the people. Eat a hot pretzel or a cup of cocoa.

I love when I get some downtime.....

And if you want to meetup just send me a PM.

The time is yours. Make the best use of it. Glad the 1st mediation went smoothly.

HM


----------



## Chuck71

gridcom said:


> We went to first mediation today. $800 bucks / See ya!
> 
> It was fine, I guess. I'm honestly looking forward to getting past this whole ordeal. The fact of the matter is, to this very minute, the lack of money has thus far only been words and numbers being bandied about and only spoken. The actual reality of _*"LESS"*_ is something I am convinced only I understand. And I made it clear that I am not willing to live with less than what I have. I have very little pleasures in my life as it is. I am happy being a simple man, with simple pleasures. A good sound system, MLB.tv, a softball glove, the internet, AppleTV, and a working macbook air is really all I need. Maybe an occasional 1/2 pound of imported prosciutto. I drive a 6 year old banged up car. Does it have heat and air conditioning? Cool. That's all I need. i wear T- shirts and blue jeans, every day. I want to live in a safe neighborhood, and live alone. My KIDS can have all the rest. I am not willing to part with ANY of the above


Grid..... I traveled to and from college. I was ready to move out after graduation but mom asked me

to stay at least a year or two (pop died right before graduation). At the time... I didn't understand why mom asked,

later on, I did. Bit over a year passed and I met my future XW. After our D final in early '13.... started 

dating my last g/f. Roughly a year and half...... For the last year I have lived alone.

There are some disadvantages and advantages to this. Record a game and watch it at 2AM..... blasting

Guns n Roses at 4AM.... But you learn a lot about yourself. It's nice having a sink with no hair products,

skin creams, hair dryers, and single blade razors with pink flowers on them.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Chuck71 said:


> It's nice having a sink with no hair products,
> 
> skin creams, hair dryers, and single blade razors with pink flowers on them.


:rofl::rofl::rofl:

It's the little things....


----------



## TeddieG

ThreeStrikes said:


> :rofl::rofl::rofl:
> 
> It's the little things....


Yeah, I read many times over the course of my life that one secret to a good marriage is separate bathrooms. We had separate bathrooms. Didn't turn out to help much in my case!


----------



## Lilac23

gridcom said:


> I have no plans on getting with another woman anytime soon. I've asked for my kids EVERY weekend, which obviously stifles a real social life, anyway. I knew what it meant to ask for that.


Why would you only have weekends? Lots of men get 50/50, especially when the ex will be living in a van down by the river. > It also decreases the amount of child support you have to pay in most states, as well. You may even end up with full custody if she continues her downward spiral! She sounds quite delusional about her financial future, bless her heart. 

The great irony in most of these stories is that by the time she is actually remorseful and wants to work on things, you will probably no longer be interested. It reminds me of those bullsh*t sayings like "the heart wants what the heart wants". No one remembers the end of that quote is "or else it does not care" but who would want paint that on the living room wall? So we selectively tune out the end because it's not idealistic and romantic. But she doesn't need reality because she'll be living on love...with a twenty something who has no children (I think), no money, no morals and appalling taste in music. I doubt he'll be going to Bible study group with her. The fog will probably evaporate quickly at that point!

The kids will be sad and confused when you split, there is no way around that. But just because this happens doesn't mean life is over, it will just be different. Your own upbringing was probably not perfect, you survived and looking back can probably even find some sort of value in whatever it taught you. Maybe you'll ultimately be a better father because of all this and appreciate the time you have with them more.


----------



## LongWalk

One week on with the kids, one week off, it's great. You get to concentrate on work/social life 100 percent for 7 days and then switch over into dad mode for a week.



If you just have weekends, you are martyring yourself. It will hurt your kids. Moreover, ask yourself is you are trying to lay a guilt trip on STBXW?


----------



## Lilac23

Lots of people alternate between Sunday to Wednesday, too. If you work all week then spend every weekend with the kids, by yourself, you'll be burning the candle at both ends. Agree with LongWalk, why martyr yourself like that? STBX will just be hamming up every weekend then.


----------



## Chuck71

LongWalk said:


> One week on with the kids, one week off, it's great. You get to concentrate on work/social life 100 percent for 7 days and then switch over into dad mode for a week.
> 
> If you just have weekends, you are martyring yourself. It will hurt your kids. Moreover, ask yourself is you are trying to lay guilt trip on STBXW?


By the time I reached high school, I had a lot of friends who had divorced parents. It was a hindrance, a 

disruption to their "social life." The ones who saw their dad... weekends only, missed out on their

peer social groups and if the dad let them go, they felt guilty about not spending time with dad.

Some only had their kids every other weekend, every weekend was sort of rare.... oh and never forget 

the Thursday evenings at Mike's Pizza Parlor for three hours.

I had female friends in HS, never dated, just close friends.... it wasn't hard to see the damage it did

to them, not having their father in their life, on a regular basis. Some dropped out of school, some took

off with the first guy they got serious with, some eventually recovered. Some never did.

One, who I think the world of, just continues to make bad choices. Four kids by two guys, on 

3x divorced, picks the absolute worst b/fs imaginable. She knows where the source is.... but can not

come to terms with it.

Grid.... I know you loved her and will for awhile. You don't want to rake her over the coal with possessions...

but when it comes to your girls.... you go for her throat with precision. It is apparent you have 

wiped the cracklings from your eyes. You can see now. I hope there is a switch inside you, when it goes off,

you will look through her, not at her. She gets the Starbucks punk and you get the girls at LEAST

50 / 50. Hard to get alimony if you have the kids at least 50%. CS as well.... but as Conrad would say, NY 

is a whole different bag of whacks. ReGroup's thread may do you a great deal of good to read or

even re-read it. If you can get any majority of time... bonus for you as a dad and moneywise.

Maybe you will get lucky like TheGoodGuy did, his XW up and left. He has his D9 100%.

His XW did him a HUGE favor.


----------



## gridcom

Some interesting things have happened the last few days. After mediation on Friday, my wife went to work. Unlike every other time after work in the last 5+ months, she didn't come home after work. She disappeared. She came home about 2 hours late. I was pissed. I am pissed because, like I've said on this message board this entire time, I REFUSE to be forced to live with infidelity. You want to have an affair, go ahead. But, you have to move out. You have to leave the family to do it. I REFUSE to be forced to watch my wife have an affair up close. She came home and I asked her if she'd been with him, and she admitted she was with him "at the bar". 

Now, she may have the legal right to live in our house and simultaneously carry on with this loser. But, it doesn't make it ethically and morally right. I told her the next time she isn't home 15 minutes after her shift ends, I am putting the girls in the car and we are going to go to the two-three places she would be, including his home. It's all within a mile of each other. And I will do it. I will put the girls in the car and go and find her.

I am not paying for her to live in this house, paying for her food, and essentially paying for her life and allowing her to carry on. Choose. One or the other. And I'm not saying "choose me" (We'll get to that). I am saying choose to live here in some semblance of harmony as we muddle through mediation and have the respect to not see the guy, or go see the guy and get the f^ck out of here.

And she knows it's wrong, but she does it anyway. Why? Because she cannot help herself.  But, herein lies the "silver lining". In all of my praying for God to repair my marriage I've been feeling like he isn't listening (or simply that there is no God anyway). But, now I'm starting to think that God is listening and he's trying to tell me that SHE'S NOT WORTH IT. This last episode drove the point home so hard. She doesn't deserve me. Her true character and immaturity have been revealed. 

I laid in bed Friday night and thought hard about this. I make a good living. She quit a full time job making almost triple what she makes now 5 years ago to raise the kids from home. I fought it because I knew we couldn't afford it. She convinced me it was best for the kids (it was) and her health(it was) and that the debt would be temporary and the pro's outweighed the cons (they did). But, what was never factored in was the fact that, at 84k in debt (yes, not 70k, actually just north of 84k), she was going to unilaterally and selfishly decide to change the fates of 4 people. And now, when it comes to debt, she tells the mediator that I should pay almost all of it because I make almost all the money. And I think to myself how this all went down and it just makes me so mad!

But, anyway, there I am Friday night laying in bed thinking I can honestly do better than this woman. 

And, based on the meditation of Friday, it is absolutely clear that the sh^t sandwich that is divorce and the financial implications are only still sitting on the plate in front of her. It is clear she has yet to take a single bite. And when she does, she is not going to like the taste. I have eaten a bunch of these in 5 months and as most of you know, they taste pretty bad. And I'm forced to "keep eatin'"

But, when the finance discussions start, you can tell that up to this point, they are simply numbers spilling out of someone's mouth. When the deal is final and she can't afford something basic, that'll be the first "HOLY SH*T" moment and I so want to be there to see it. The mediator was as polite as possible in telling my wife she needs to get going on getting a full time job. She says she's trying, but in 5 months she's gone on 3 interviews. Two of which I set up. So, on her own...5 months/1 interview. And she says "I'm trying" and I just shake my head. She has a college degree and was working full time just 5 years ago. Why is she stalling?

Here's the thing, are you ready? She doesn't want to work at a job that she doesn't like, that she feels is "just a job". You know, the kind of job that most of America has. No, she wants the luxury of a job that pays well enough to be able to afford her life, gives benefits, and she can "find meaning" in. Do you think the guy who works for Con Edison and drives around all day to power plants gives a crap about his job on a personal level? No, he does it because it's a union job that pays well. Otherwise, he's not in it for the "love of the sport"

This woman is fighting off so many consequences. It's like on Walking Dead when they barricade the door and there is like 400 zombies on the other side and the door is about to break. I never knew my wife to be this stupid. It's just amazing that I missed this all these years. Love is blind, it really is.

Anyway, yeah, I am no longer wanting to reconcile at all. I am ready to get on with my life. Now, that I have accepted this, I cannot seem to get it done fast enough. I just turned 44, time's a wastin'. Doesn't mean I can't be angry. I am angry. I am angry because my kids are going to get a raw deal. 

Bonus story...... last night on my way home from seeing The Budos Band in Brooklyn, I drove past AP's house (on the way....kinda). His house is right on the street. As in : SIDEWALK/HOUSE. No yard. I drove past and slowed down. I looked in his window, and he's sitting right in the window and for some reason looking out onto the street. How totally coincidental and bizarre. I stopped the car. I rolled down the window and we stared at each other for maybe 10 seconds before I simply rolled up the window and drove away. He looked so confused. First time I've ever seen him in the flesh. I was very calm. I doubt he was. It was after 1am in the morning. I bet he felt a bit violated.


----------



## just got it 55

Grid I'm glad the post ended the way it did because the more I read the more I could feel the adrenaline rush overcoming my senses 

How do you know he knew who you were ? 

55


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Keep your cool, grid.

She can do whatever the hell she wants right now, and I guarantee she will stall and hem haw this mediation process as long as she can. Because that means you're on the hook financially. She's going to milk you, fella. To punish you.

Don't get visibly angry. Let her do whatever she wants. (Give defiant people what they want). Act like you don't give a crap, and focus on you and your kids.

In the meantime, get the D done ASAP. Have your lawyer draw up the papers and have her served at work. Screw mediation. That's a long game you can't afford. Put D on the fast track. Put your home up for sale.

Whatever you do, do not take your girls with you and stalk your STBX. That's a quick ticket to a CPO or restraining order. Keep your wits about you. Vent here.


----------



## Evinrude58

The selfishness and lack of conscience that one shows when committing adultery is only eclipsed by what they do financially to their betrayed spouse when they divorce them.

I hope you get 50/50 custody and I'm confident she will get half the debt. Your kids will continue to be a source of happiness. That's how I got through it. I would place little faith in mediation since your wife is obviously not thinking anywhere in the ballpark of fairness. But I wish you luck. You deserve some. 

If I could persuade you to not go by the AP's house anymore, I would do so. That can only lead to trouble and more pain. It's a shame the AP doesn't have to share in some of the trouble he's helped cause.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ButtPunch

Grid

The more you detach the more she will try you.

Do not let her know you care.

Let her go. She is showing you she is. 

You need to be cheerful as if you know she is doing you a favor by divorcing.. 

Your focus needs to be on you and the girls. The hell with her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

gridcom said:


> But, when the finance discussions start, you can tell that up to this point, they are simply numbers spilling out of someone's mouth. When the deal is final and she can't afford something basic, that'll be the first "HOLY SH*T" moment and I so want to be there to see it. The mediator was as polite as possible in telling my wife she needs to get going on getting a full time job. She says she's trying, but in 5 months she's gone on 3 interviews. Two of which I set up. So, on her own...5 months/1 interview. And she says "I'm trying" and I just shake my head. She has a college degree and was working full time just 5 years ago. Why is she stalling?
> 
> Here's the thing, are you ready? She doesn't want to work at a job that she doesn't like, that she feels is "just a job". You know, the kind of job that most of America has. No, she wants the luxury of a job that pays well enough to be able to afford her life, gives benefits, and she can "find meaning" in.


Huh. How about that? The *ONE *thing I've told you to do at least THREE TIMES NOW - _to take away the money_ - is now the one thing that you see she needs to experience.

Do YOU - and all the other people reading your thread for advice - finally GET IT?

Women do not understand what it means to not have their man pay for their stuff. Getting struck in the head by that is one of the ONLY things that can ever get a WW to stop taking their husband for granted and, just maybe, stop cheating.

If you would have cut her off of your income FIVE MONTHS AGO, you might have a wife who is NOT in love with another man and still expecting you to pay for her to have him.

Grrr.


----------



## gridcom

turnera said:


> Huh. How about that? The *ONE *thing I've told you to do at least THREE TIMES NOW - _to take away the money_ - is now the one thing that you see she needs to experience.
> 
> Do YOU - and all the other people reading your thread for advice - finally GET IT?
> 
> Women do not understand what it means to not have their man pay for their stuff. Getting struck in the head by that is one of the ONLY things that can ever get a WW to stop taking their husband for granted and, just maybe, stop cheating.
> 
> If you would have cut her off of your income FIVE MONTHS AGO, you might have a wife who is NOT in love with another man and still expecting you to pay for her to have him.
> 
> Grrr.


You know, I've had this attitude from the beginning of trying to fix it, trying to own my role in the marriage's failure.... and all along I've had this attitude of "She can't possibly be serious, right?"

And even though there have been numerous careless, selfish things done at my and the kids expense, I haven't ever had any desire to hurt her. Meaning, I never had it in me to actually do the things I was thinking I wanted to do, or things I would threaten to do. 

And still, I don't want to hurt her. I just don't want her to hurt me, you know? It's very complicated, the head versus the heart. But, I don't think I do anybody any favors in being the aggressor (in terms of doing). 

But, it sucks having to _defend_. It really does. 

For the first time, we both want the marriage to end. I really do. I need to get out of this rut. I need to get into the next phase of my life. It's funny that the new year is coming up. I never really paid much attention to those types of benchmarks. But, 2015 SUCKED. All the way around. 2015 was the worst. And it's over in 2 weeks, but this crap is going to blast right into 2016. And now that I have accepted the end of the marriage, all I really want is to not have to deal with this bull crap. 

My prior post. I meant every word. But, it's wearing me down now. What's worse than trying to fix the marriage and being denied? 

Having to wait to move on.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

turnera said:


> Huh. How about that? The *ONE *thing I've told you to do at least THREE TIMES NOW - _to take away the money_ - is now the one thing that you see she needs to experience.
> 
> Do YOU - and all the other people reading your thread for advice - finally GET IT?
> 
> Women do not understand what it means to not have their man pay for their stuff. Getting struck in the head by that is one of the ONLY things that can ever get a WW to stop taking their husband for granted and, just maybe, stop cheating.
> 
> *If you would have cut her off of your income FIVE MONTHS AGO, you might have a wife who is NOT in love with another man and still expecting you to pay for her to have him.*
> 
> Grrr.


BUT... in that case then he would have a wife who stayed with him strictly for his paycheck. Not a win.


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## Lilac23

Does she have a car payment, her own health insurance / car insurance, credit cards in her name only? You should inform her these are her personal debts and she can start paying them out of her fulfilling, part-time, low wage job where she's banging the child employees. She's really making a profound difference in the world!

If you make 200k a year and New York has a 17% child support rate, you're looking at forking over quite a sum to her each month, not including alimony. What are the alimony laws in NY, is it lifelong or for a period of time? You need to document everything you do with kids to show you are just as much of a caregiver as she is. Getting them ready for school, taking them to doctor appts., being there when they get off the bus, making dinner, helping with homework, baths and bedtime routine etc. Who stays home with them when they are sick from school? You have to know how to present yourself as just as much of a stable, involved parent as she is. Have you opened a separate bank account yet and have your checks deposited into it?

IMO, you should just stay the hell away from the OM, the wife already blames you for having a temper or verbally abusing her, correct? That will definitely come up in any custody hearings and if you get an assault charge against you, you could kiss a favorable custody outcome goodbye. He's a piece of scum but she is the one allowing this to occur. People get so caught up blaming the affair partners when all your rage should be devoted to your sweet little spouse who invited this interloper into your lives. Don't worry about her little rendezvous, her preoccupation with unrequited love can actually work in your favor right now. This is your time to plan your attack! People change when money and custody become involved so while she's in the fog, you can have your feet firmly planted on the ground paving the way to your future. It's like a military invasion, the most successful ones are when the opponent has no idea it's even coming. Think Pearl Harbor, she's laying on the beach enjoying the sun and has no idea an entire fleet of warplanes are about to mess up her tan. Never let an opportunity go to waste.


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## cbnero

Grid

I've been there. My now XW was doing the same stuff, she would even pack a bag and just leave for the night. I never knew or asked where she was. I know how bad you are hurting.

Don't focus on the end game of "moving on" instead focus on just getting through one hour, one afternoon, one day. Break it down to a manageable amount of time. Don't worry about the "future" because it's not in your control anyways. Trust in God to see you through it. He will.

One thing my attorney recommended and I did was to file to a summons to take my ex to court. Basically if my XW wanted to avoid court she had to reach agreement and sign off on the divorce details otherwise into court we go. It put her immediately on the defensive.

Let me clue you in here. Your STBX might think she is so cool and holding all strings watching you do your puppet dance. But ****roaches hate the light. The mere thought of being exposed frightens her. Guaranteed. She is infatuated and in love with POSOM and your divorce paperwork and ethical behavior are a real drag, man. How selfish of you to expect anything from her! Haha

The best way to show her you don't care is to stop caring. Stop discussing your feelings. Expect nothing from her! She is no longer your wife and feels nothing for you, certainly no obligation to be decent. 

For the 1000th time on this thread: get some freaking boundaries man. Confronting her or acting crazy is not a boundary. Make some changes around the house! Get rid of stuff. Get new clothes. New cologne. Act happy as you have ever been in your life. 

As soon as she sees you not caring at all she will notice, believe me.

Boundaries
Boundaries 
Boundaries 
Boundaries 
Boundaries


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## tech-novelist

Lilac23 said:


> Why would you only have weekends? Lots of men get 50/50, especially when the ex will be living in a van down by the river. > It also decreases the amount of child support you have to pay in most states, as well. You may even end up with full custody if she continues her downward spiral! She sounds quite delusional about her financial future, bless her heart.


IMO, "Bless (his/her) heart" is one of the greatest contributions of Southern culture. Its meaning is very similar to "he/she is a moron", but sounds so much better! 0


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## Lilac23

Isn't she precious?


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## farsidejunky

Grid:

Every time you tell her something hurts you, what do you think she is going to about it?

Your wife is not the only one who is stubborn.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## ThreeStrikes

Grid,

No longer participating in the enabling of her poor behavior isn't "hurting" her.

Enabling and financing her poor behavior hurts *you*.

Remember the drama triangle. Whether you start as the rescuer, or persecutor, you will end up as the victim. Stay off the corners.

Read your last two posts. See the progression towards victim?


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## turnera

3Xnocharm said:


> BUT... in that case then he would have a wife who stayed with him strictly for his paycheck. Not a win.


Perhaps. But in the meantime the OM would have been gone and it's POSSIBLE that the affair fog would have cleared and she might have realized the horror of what she'd done to him. We'll never know. I've seen some people who've done truly horrible things while cheating who, once the AP is out of the picture, do return to who they used to be. That's why I push so hard the notion that most cheaters are _addicts_. Remove the drug and you might salvage things. Just like with any addict.

As I always state, the one key thing to do first in all affair cases is to pry the cheater away from the AP so they stop having that PEA-induced fix.


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## turnera

gridcom said:


> And still, I don't want to hurt her. I just don't want her to hurt me, you know? It's very complicated, the head versus the heart. But, I don't think I do anybody any favors in being the aggressor (in terms of doing).


What you haven't been able to understand in all these pages is that being firm and strong and decisive WOULD HAVE HELPED HER.

She's a drug addict. What do you do for drug addicts? You stage an intervention because THEY are unable to quit on their own. You HELP them by being the grownup, the parent, for a time, until the AP is out of their system. And THEN you address what's wrong in the marriage and see if it's reparable.


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## farsidejunky

I think it is moot at this point.

Grid, you know your path. But in choosing to divorce, you are still trying to control. Ultimately it looks to be to appease your hurt.

The problem is you are showing her your hurt, and she has shown she has no problem hurting you. 

It is poker face time. Remember the big three:

"I am not okay with that."

"I am sorry you feel that way."

"I see it differently."

And leave it at that.



Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Pluto2

farsidejunky said:


> I think it is moot at this point.
> 
> Grid, you know your path. But in choosing to divorce, you are still trying to control. Ultimately it looks to be to appease your hurt.
> 
> The problem is you are showing her your hurt, and she has shown she has no problem hurting you.
> 
> It is poker face time. Remember the big three:
> 
> "I am not okay with that."
> 
> "I am sorry you feel that way."
> 
> "I see it differently."
> 
> And leave it at that.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I'm compelled to add:

"I'm not comfortable with the direction this conversation is taking."


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## gridcom

Thanks guys..... I just got to my desk for the last week of work before a 16 day break. I really hope I can use my time this week, and then the 16 off days, wisely. I slept about 4 hours again last night. I still haven't taken any sleeping aids. I can't even give a valid reason why other than I don't want any bad habits and I am very much a "creature of habit". I've been in the rocknroll business my whole life, but I've never touched a hard drug. Only because I know I'd be that guy that dives right in with gusto. I don't do anything half way. I do whatever I do with 110% ferocity. It works well sometimes and, obviously, can be my worst enemy.

Anyway, I had some of the weirdest dreams ever last night. 3 of them, all very vivid. All involving three painful situations in my life (not involving my wife). One was my father, one was a friend of mine who died kind of suddenly, and one was an ex-client who I really loved who I lost. Nothing involving my wife, but all very painful dreams, almost nightmares. I woke up a mess. I took a walk, just over 4 miles. 

The mind is a funny thing. My mind is playing tricks on me. 

It's funny how you come around to thinking a certain way, and convince yourself that maybe you've felt this way all along but denied it to yourself. In my case, I've come to the conclusion that I want to keep my house, and I want my kids to live here primarily. It's funny because, looking at it from 50,000 feet, isn't that what I should have desired all along? I've gone on such a rough ride, but in the end when you strip it all down, my #1 desire is for my wife to NOT determine the course of my life in every way. I am OK with her extracting herself from my life, but why should I leave the home I worked my butt off to own? Why should I live without my kids? Why should my life change more than it has to. This wasn't my doing. _"You don't like the life we have, there's the door."_

This is how I'm rolling. I am also going to do my very best to get out of the choppy waters, for my own sanity. I need to rest.

I really need to rest.

Take care everybody through XMas. I am going to once again sign off for a bit and focus on work, then take a few weeks and figure sh^t out. Thanks once again to those who have been with me for a long time and have patience talking me out of my tree. These are hard times and uncharted waters for me, as they were for you. I appreciate all of you, I really do.

While I am away, enjoy some Black Sabbath: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpBBUMjo8Ng&feature=youtu.be


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## Sammy64

When i'am in THAT mood, i listen to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_l4Ab5FRwM
Yes, its about veterans, but the meaning of the song is what i like, and that its about our veterans..


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## JohnA

I think you crossed the bridge to acceptance. Don't look back, don't go back. Your roller coaster ride is not over yet but most of the wrost is behind year. 

Remember don't ever give your WW the satisfaction of seeing your pain and grief. She's feeding off your pain and grief.


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## happyman64

Good for you Grid.

"She is not Worth It!" Should be plastered everywhere you need it for that message to sink in.

Take these two weeks to think. To plan. To extract her from your life.

Your wife needs to see you actively removing her from every aspect of your relationship.

She also needs to see you not reacting to her wayward ways. I understand she still lives there. I understand you two are still married.

I get it.

She does not. You do not.

"She is Not Worth It". Repeat it. Repeat it again.

And leave your kids out of chasing her down when she is late. Instead, throw them in the car and go get ice cream or go to a park while it is still warm.

Let her miss the time with them if she even notices.

Use this time and the next two weeks for you. And your kids.

HM


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## abart

finally he's there !!!


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## Thundarr

turnera said:


> Women do not understand what it means to not have their man pay for their stuff. Getting struck in the head by that is one of the ONLY things that can ever get a WW to stop taking their husband for granted and, just maybe, stop cheating.
> 
> If you would have cut her off of your income FIVE MONTHS AGO, you might have a wife who is NOT in love with another man and still expecting you to pay for her to have him.
> 
> Grrr.
> 
> 
> 3Xnocharm said:
> 
> 
> 
> BUT... in that case then he would have a wife who stayed with him strictly for his paycheck. Not a win.
Click to expand...

If reconciliation at all costs is the goal then I can see turnera's point *but R at all costs is not the goal is it*. Being married to someone who is trapped yet wishes they could divorce us is a recipe for disaster. The kind of disaster Grid is already going through. I'm glad Grid can look back and see that he gave her the option to work on things and she repeatedly chose not to. At least now he'll know what to think if she wants to work things out only after finances and other hardships start to set in.

The thing is; things like the 180 and full exposure at the start of this might have worked. But you know that's risky too. I'm sure there are many who used those techniques only to realize they won a prize they didn't really want any more.


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## lifeistooshort

Thundarr said:


> If reconciliation at all costs is the goal then I can see turnera's point *but R at all costs is not the goal is it*. Being married to someone who is trapped yet wishes they could divorce us is a recipe for disaster. The kind of disaster Grid is already going through. I'm glad Grid can look back and see that he gave her the option to work on things and she repeatedly chose not to. At least now he'll know what to think if she wants to work things out only after finances and other hardships start to set in.
> 
> The thing is; things like the 180 and full exposure at the start of this might have worked. But you know that's risky too. I'm sure there are many who used those techniques only to realize they won a prize they didn't really want any more.



Yeah, I'm not a big fan of the whole cut off the money mentality. First of all, it's only going to get you a spouse who needs you to pay for stuff, not one that wants you. How many guys complain they feel like just a paycheck? With this mentality you ensure that's all you are. 

Second, it implies that sahp is essentially an employee at will of working spouse and not a partner. My ex once cleaned out our bank account while I was home with HIS toddler and baby to force me to "talk to him". We won't get into how that ended but suffice to say I did not "talk to him" and he is now an ex.

Now that doesn't mean marital funds should be used for one to cheat, but that's why the marriage needs to end. .... so the finances can be worked out.

Cut off the money is a parental response to a spouse and will generally get you a child who doesn't want you but does need you instead of a loving spouse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TheTruthHurts

lifeistooshort said:


> Cut off the money is a parental response to a spouse and will generally get you a child who doesn't want you but does need you instead of a loving spouse.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If you are trying to win a spouse back, this is a point to consider. If not, definitely cut off YOUR money immediately and let your WS worry about taking care of their own expenses, and don't give up anything without consulting a really good divorce lawyer. By this point your WS has left the marriage a long time ago and it's time for you to leave too IMO. You owe them nothing at that point.


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## Chuck71

gridcom said:


> Some interesting things have happened the last few days. After mediation on Friday, my wife went to work. Unlike every other time after work in the last 5+ months, she didn't come home after work. She disappeared. She came home about 2 hours late. I was pissed. I am pissed because, like I've said on this message board this entire time, I REFUSE to be forced to live with infidelity. You want to have an affair, go ahead. But, you have to move out. You have to leave the family to do it. I REFUSE to be forced to watch my wife have an affair up close. She came home and I asked her if she'd been with him, and she admitted she was with him "at the bar".
> 
> Now, she may have the legal right to live in our house and simultaneously carry on with this loser. But, it doesn't make it ethically and morally right. I told her the next time she isn't home 15 minutes after her shift ends, I am putting the girls in the car and we are going to go to the two-three places she would be, including his home. It's all within a mile of each other. And I will do it. I will put the girls in the car and go and find her.
> 
> I am not paying for her to live in this house, paying for her food, and essentially paying for her life and allowing her to carry on. Choose. One or the other. And I'm not saying "choose me" (We'll get to that). I am saying choose to live here in some semblance of harmony as we muddle through mediation and have the respect to not see the guy, or go see the guy and get the f^ck out of here.
> 
> And she knows it's wrong, but she does it anyway. Why? Because she cannot help herself.  But, herein lies the "silver lining". In all of my praying for God to repair my marriage I've been feeling like he isn't listening (or simply that there is no God anyway). But, now I'm starting to think that God is listening and he's trying to tell me that SHE'S NOT WORTH IT. This last episode drove the point home so hard. She doesn't deserve me. Her true character and immaturity have been revealed.
> 
> I laid in bed Friday night and thought hard about this. I make a good living. She quit a full time job making almost triple what she makes now 5 years ago to raise the kids from home. I fought it because I knew we couldn't afford it. She convinced me it was best for the kids (it was) and her health(it was) and that the debt would be temporary and the pro's outweighed the cons (they did). But, what was never factored in was the fact that, at 84k in debt (yes, not 70k, actually just north of 84k), she was going to unilaterally and selfishly decide to change the fates of 4 people. And now, when it comes to debt, she tells the mediator that I should pay almost all of it because I make almost all the money. And I think to myself how this all went down and it just makes me so mad!
> 
> But, anyway, there I am Friday night laying in bed thinking I can honestly do better than this woman.
> 
> And, based on the meditation of Friday, it is absolutely clear that the sh^t sandwich that is divorce and the financial implications are only still sitting on the plate in front of her. It is clear she has yet to take a single bite. And when she does, she is not going to like the taste. I have eaten a bunch of these in 5 months and as most of you know, they taste pretty bad. And I'm forced to "keep eatin'"
> 
> But, when the finance discussions start, you can tell that up to this point, they are simply numbers spilling out of someone's mouth. When the deal is final and she can't afford something basic, that'll be the first "HOLY SH*T" moment and I so want to be there to see it. The mediator was as polite as possible in telling my wife she needs to get going on getting a full time job. She says she's trying, but in 5 months she's gone on 3 interviews. Two of which I set up. So, on her own...5 months/1 interview. And she says "I'm trying" and I just shake my head. She has a college degree and was working full time just 5 years ago. Why is she stalling?
> 
> Here's the thing, are you ready? She doesn't want to work at a job that she doesn't like, that she feels is "just a job". You know, the kind of job that most of America has. No, she wants the luxury of a job that pays well enough to be able to afford her life, gives benefits, and she can "find meaning" in. Do you think the guy who works for Con Edison and drives around all day to power plants gives a crap about his job on a personal level? No, he does it because it's a union job that pays well. Otherwise, he's not in it for the "love of the sport"
> 
> This woman is fighting off so many consequences. It's like on Walking Dead when they barricade the door and there is like 400 zombies on the other side and the door is about to break. I never knew my wife to be this stupid. It's just amazing that I missed this all these years. Love is blind, it really is.
> 
> Anyway, yeah, I am no longer wanting to reconcile at all. I am ready to get on with my life. Now, that I have accepted this, I cannot seem to get it done fast enough. I just turned 44, time's a wastin'. Doesn't mean I can't be angry. I am angry. I am angry because my kids are going to get a raw deal.
> 
> Bonus story...... last night on my way home from seeing The Budos Band in Brooklyn, I drove past AP's house (on the way....kinda). His house is right on the street. As in : SIDEWALK/HOUSE. No yard. I drove past and slowed down. I looked in his window, and he's sitting right in the window and for some reason looking out onto the street. How totally coincidental and bizarre. I stopped the car. I rolled down the window and we stared at each other for maybe 10 seconds before I simply rolled up the window and drove away. He looked so confused. First time I've ever seen him in the flesh. I was very calm. I doubt he was. It was after 1am in the morning. I bet he felt a bit violated.


Welcome brother! We've been expecting you. Tomato Soup may be her nickname.....

Here's one for you..... Rick Vaughn...... how's it feel to have your balls back...... huge hugs brother!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CL34mQTB5kI


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## lifeistooshort

TheTruthHurts said:


> If you are trying to win a spouse back, this is a point to consider. If not, definitely cut off YOUR money immediately and let your WS worry about taking care of their own expenses, and don't give up anything without consulting a really good divorce lawyer. By this point your WS has left the marriage a long time ago and it's time for you to leave too IMO. You owe them nothing at that point.


It's not HIS money, it's marital money until they have separation or divorce agreement. This mentality is one of the reasons I think it's a foolish risk to be a sahm. .... when stuff hits the fan we see what people really think of this contribution.

Guys like to pay lip service to staying at home with children but in the end it's a mechanism by which to punish a misbehaving spouse/child.


If he'd cheated would she able able to cut off his money? Of course not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ButtPunch

He has no moral obligation to financially support her while she's in an affair.

Legally speaking, that's what the lawyers and judges are for....let them work it out.

Even Dr. Harley takes the money away from the WS.


However.....I do get Thundarr's be careful what you wish for argument.


----------



## lifeistooshort

ButtPunch said:


> He has no moral obligation to financially support her while she's in an affair.
> 
> Legally speaking, that's what the lawyers and judges are for....let them work it out.
> 
> Even Dr. Harley takes the money away from the WS.
> 
> 
> However.....I do get Thundarr's be careful what you wish for argument.


Of course, I was referring to legally. He cannot cut her off like that just as she couldn't confiscate his paycheck if he was cheating. Unless one takes the position that they're not really partners and she's his employee.

It's easy to get emotional when a partner is cheating but sometimes you really do need to step back. Until they have a legal agreement it's marital money.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## just got it 55

abart said:


> finally he's there !!!


Yes Grid you are there

HM64 is absolutely right. Leave your girls out of the drama. Just let them always remember you stood for your honor and truth.One day they will comprehend what happened to mommy and daddy.They will learn how men /people should act.

This is a real life lesson for them and you as well.This is protecting your girls.Money is secondary to this.

Now one foot in front of the other with your babies in hand

Have fun always my young brother.

In no time TS will just be an after thought .


55

ETA: Grid I truly am sorry for the loss of your family as you knew it.
When you choose the right path you may even have a better one.


----------



## Chuck71

gridcom said:


> Thanks guys..... I just got to my desk for the last week of work before a 16 day break. I really hope I can use my time this week, and then the 16 off days, wisely. I slept about 4 hours again last night. I still haven't taken any sleeping aids. I can't even give a valid reason why other than I don't want any bad habits and I am very much a "creature of habit". I've been in the rocknroll business my whole life, but I've never touched a hard drug. Only because I know I'd be that guy that dives right in with gusto. I don't do anything half way. I do whatever I do with 110% ferocity. It works well sometimes and, obviously, can be my worst enemy.
> 
> Anyway, I had some of the weirdest dreams ever last night. 3 of them, all very vivid. All involving three painful situations in my life (not involving my wife). One was my father, one was a friend of mine who died kind of suddenly, and one was an ex-client who I really loved who I lost. Nothing involving my wife, but all very painful dreams, almost nightmares. I woke up a mess. I took a walk, just over 4 miles.
> 
> The mind is a funny thing. My mind is playing tricks on me.
> 
> It's funny how you come around to thinking a certain way, and convince yourself that maybe you've felt this way all along but denied it to yourself. In my case, I've come to the conclusion that I want to keep my house, and I want my kids to live here primarily. It's funny because, looking at it from 50,000 feet, isn't that what I should have desired all along? I've gone on such a rough ride, but in the end when you strip it all down, my #1 desire is for my wife to NOT determine the course of my life in every way. I am OK with her extracting herself from my life, but why should I leave the home I worked my butt off to own? Why should I live without my kids? Why should my life change more than it has to. This wasn't my doing. _"You don't like the life we have, there's the door."_
> 
> This is how I'm rolling. I am also going to do my very best to get out of the choppy waters, for my own sanity. I need to rest.
> 
> I really need to rest.
> 
> Take care everybody through XMas. I am going to once again sign off for a bit and focus on work, then take a few weeks and figure sh^t out. Thanks once again to those who have been with me for a long time and have patience talking me out of my tree. These are hard times and uncharted waters for me, as they were for you. I appreciate all of you, I really do.
> 
> While I am away, enjoy some Black Sabbath: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpBBUMjo8Ng&feature=youtu.be


Grid.... after we filed for D... there was one night, early December '12, I was discussing financial

things with her and I got this -Don't make me mad, I will make this hard on you moneywise-

As I fell down the rabbit hole, I was making notes..... when I came out, I set precise boundaries.

"Why are you so cold Chuck" "We are still M, we are allowed to talk" "Why are you shutting me out"

I was waiting for her to say this..... "You should at lest be nice to me or I can make this D hard on you"

My reply....."You do what you feel necessary, I will damn sure do what I need to do..... buy always remember, 

there are afterbirths to everything you do." "What do you mean Chuck" "Fvck with me and I'll show you."

I kept the house, rental properties, etc. Granted... I inherited some of her debt but.... no one gets off 100% clean.

To be honest, maybe the XW knew, maybe she did not. There was a paper trail where she helped her 

brother before he went to prison. It would have sent her away a bit. Also... after he was charged, he did not tell 

his "government people" he still had a gun..... a gun banned decades back. Two fingerprints were on it....

her brother's and her hands. All my then STBXW understood was "in your face" and.....I gave it.

Leo Durocher was one of my pop's heroes as he grew up. I learned of him only through books and word of mouth.

His saying was.... "Nice guys finish last" You have been a nice guy WAY too long.

Make it real...


----------



## ButtPunch

lifeistooshort said:


> Of course, I was referring to legally. He cannot cut her off like that just as she couldn't confiscate his paycheck if he was cheating. Unless one takes the position that they're not really partners and she's his employee.
> 
> It's easy to get emotional when a partner is cheating but sometimes you really do need to step back. Until they have a legal agreement it's marital money.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And until there is a court order he is under no legal obligation to do anything either. Lots of spouses go to Vegas and blow the marital savings in a weekend. Nothing you can do about it. 

When Turnera says take the money away, she doesn't mean quit paying her health insurance, food, mortgage. She means take the access to money away. Take away luxuries. Never will you see a judge get mad because the internet got shut off.


----------



## turnera

Yep. I liken it to when I told my 12 year old that she was now getting an allowance, but I was done buying her anything; if she wanted it, she had to save the money from her allowance to get it. Amazing how quickly she decided she didn't really need that new game or CD if it came out of HER pocketbook.


----------



## Chuck71

ButtPunch said:


> And until there is a court order he is under no legal obligation to do anything either. Lots of spouses go to Vegas and blow the marital savings in a weekend. Nothing you can do about it.
> 
> When Turnera says take the money away, she doesn't mean quit paying her health insurance, food, mortgage. She means take the access to money away. Take away luxuries. Never will you see a judge get mad because the internet got shut off.


Procuring hotel rooms with POSOM or buying him drinks at a bar...... are much different than health insurance.

I seriously doubt this 20something is paying out a penny.

No cash, gift wrapped sex.... c'mon

I dated women her age in my 20s..... but not married ones.

No drama, no BS. Well... I guess there would have been IF she was married


----------



## TheTruthHurts

lifeistooshort said:


> TheTruthHurts said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you are trying to win a spouse back, this is a point to consider. If not, definitely cut off YOUR money immediately and let your WS worry about taking care of their own expenses, and don't give up anything without consulting a really good divorce lawyer. By this point your WS has left the marriage a long time ago and it's time for you to leave too IMO. You owe them nothing at that point.
> 
> 
> 
> It's not HIS money, it's marital money until they have separation or divorce agreement. This mentality is one of the reasons I think it's a foolish risk to be a sahm. .... when stuff hits the fan we see what people really think of this contribution.
> 
> Guys like to pay lip service to staying at home with children but in the end it's a mechanism by which to punish a misbehaving spouse/child.
> 
> 
> If he'd cheated would she able able to cut off his money? Of course not.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
Click to expand...

We just disagree that's all. Of course it's marital money but nothing says he can't spend it the way he sees fit and if it ain't available then it ain't available. So I would close all joint accounts and cards. Nothing requires a couple to have joint accounts. But there are ways to be sure the money is tightly controlled and Mrs. Grid knows that. If she chooses to work at a pay rate she is capable of then I suppose she is entitled to greater access to marital money. She's choosing not to. I would view the difference as opportunity loss or her personal consumption of marital assets based on her unilateral decision to forgo income to which Grid is entitled.

Anyway it doesn't matter grid will do what he wants. Personally I'd end things rocket quick and preserve as many assets as possible like lonely husband. He's shutting down the married life ASAP.


----------



## LongWalk

Grid,

Your relationship has a pattern. She provokes you, you blow up. The affair has fed this dynamic. 

The disrespect of her coming home from having sex with OM understandably makes you mad, but this has been going on for a year. She chose to tell you so that you would blow up. She has done it again.

If she goes and sleeps with OM, she will be out of the house. Record the days that she is absent in case you have custody battle. Let her go to OM. It is possible that once she is there a while, the thrill of cheating will diminish. In any case, stay calm. 

it is good that you no longer want to give up the house. Let her go live with him. Maybe you can buy her out. What is that negotiating technique? One person cuts the cake, the other gets first choice of which piece. Maybe you can do something like that.

i agree with Lifeistooshort that you need not pick fights about money. Your wife has her wages. Let her live on them.


----------



## Chuck71

LongWalk said:


> Grid,
> 
> Your relationship has a pattern. She provokes you, you blow up. The affair has fed this dynamic.
> 
> The disrespect of her coming home from having sex with OM understandably makes you mad, but this has been going on for a year. She chose to tell you so that you would blow up. She has done it again.
> 
> If she goes and sleeps with OM, she will be out of the house. Record the days that she is absent in case you have custody battle. Let her go to OM. It is possible that once she is there a while, the thrill of cheating will diminish. In any case, stay calm.
> 
> it is good that you no longer want to give up the house. Let her go live with him. Maybe you can buy her out. What is that negotiating technique? One person cuts the cake, the other gets first choice of which piece. Maybe you can do something like that.
> 
> i agree with Lifeistooshort that you need not pick fights about money. Your wife has her wages. Let her live on them.


And nothing can kill an affair more than...... Grid knowing where she is going and him not giving a damn.

When my XW would take off for 3-4 weeks back in Nov / Dec '12.... she would come home Fri-Sun and

a day here and there during the week. It wasn't long until I was glad when she was gone.

I was able to grieve in peace. Dec. 10 and 11 was my "bottom" .... she came home every night,

straight from work from the 11th.... until I left, awaiting the D final.

Grid.... she had her foot on my throat in early Dec. A month later.... she was reaching and I was ignoring.

When you stop giving a damn, the other usually starts to


----------



## Ms. GP

I like Happyman's suggestion.

Acceptance and letting go isn't about thinking less of her, it's about thinking of her less.


----------



## LongWalk

Grid,

Her eyes are blank. That tells you everything. Your wife is smart enough to intuit that trouble lies ahead. She is burning her bridges and to confirm that the scorched earth policy is right, she hopes to see you standing there like peasant whose grain has been burned. She expects you to either be angry and fight her or lie down and share her depression.

If you love her, stop trying to save her. She has to walk in the ruins and consider rebuilding. Nothing in what she has done suggests that she is willing to do the so-called heavy lifting. It is easier for her to drift to OM, although she must have questions about the prospects of a long term relationship.

At some level LostLove's wife remained connected to him in the co-dependent relationship. She thought she was going to swing to a new tree, but as soon as the word got round that she would put out for ego kibbles the men she attracted were only interested in getting laid. No doubt she only had a blank stare in the end. She wanted LL back but did not really love him anymore or rather she tried to grasp the shadow of what was gone.

For the sake of your daughters I hope her OM is great guy who will rise to the challenge. Unfortunately the chances of this are at best 15 percent.

You will find a new woman. Greater NY has millions of them.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

We are now going in circles. He had false hope, from day one, when he was told removing OM wasn't a priority. I'm glad he has finally understood, even with all of the drug addict references and hope smoke blown about this thread. 

In this 5 month period she has had at least 4 interventions. There's a point when you have to let the person fail for your own health and sanity. Also, remember, the blank stare is a tactic used to drown out something or someone unwanted.......she filed on you.


----------



## gridcom

Same dream, 2 nights in a row. 

Not only do I hardly ever remember my dreams, but to have the same one twice is weird and freaking me out

My wife and I are with the devil. He looks like a guy I used to do business with years ago who I always thought looked like the devil. In the dream he demands my wife swallow her own tongue. I argue with him profusely, plead with him. I beg him not to make her do it. He makes her do it anyway (of course, he's the devil).

It's upsetting.


----------



## Chaparral

How's the 180 going?


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> Same dream, 2 nights in a row.
> 
> Not only do I hardly ever remember my dreams, but to have the same one twice is weird and freaking me out
> 
> My wife and I are with the devil. He looks like a guy I used to do business with years ago who I always thought looked like the devil. In the dream he demands my wife swallow her own tongue. I argue with him profusely, plead with him. I beg him not to make her do it. He makes her do it anyway (of course, he's the devil).
> 
> It's upsetting.


Well.....That's Creepy.


----------



## farsidejunky

Quite fitting allegory, Grid.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

gridcom said:


> Same dream, 2 nights in a row.
> 
> Not only do I hardly ever remember my dreams, but to have the same one twice is weird and freaking me out
> 
> My wife and I are with the devil. He looks like a guy I used to do business with years ago who I always thought looked like the devil. In the dream he demands my wife swallow her own tongue. I argue with him profusely, plead with him. I beg him not to make her do it. He makes her do it anyway (of course, he's the devil).
> 
> It's upsetting.


You love her, grid. You know what she is doing is wrong. This whole thing is just so wrong. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Bibi1031

jld said:


> You love her, grid. You know what she is doing is wrong. This whole thing is just so wrong.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And yet all those truths don't change the outcome one bit...this marriage/divorce is another casualty of adultery and selfishness.


----------



## Pluto2

Agreed. 

Insinuating more blame on Grid? Well, that is wrong. I suppose I could have misinterpreted that.

The dream really speaks about one aspect of the pain of infidelity to so many: the never-ending, relentless lies.


----------



## turnera

devil...tongue...cut tongue out...not hard to figure out.


----------



## LongWalk

Well, your wife can still play the tambourine in OM's garage band.

I have a story to share. Don't know exactly how it applies to you but anyway, here goes:

Back in August I attended a sports event in South America. Via Facebook I was "friends" with a beautiful blond pixie on one of the women's teams. She wasn't really small but there was something about her, a lot of spirit in a neat package. All I knew about her was that she was a real intense competitor. When we met in real life she was as attractive as her digital persona. Although she looked 18 to 21, in fact she had two small kids and a fiancé. Among the hundreds of participants, there was a competitor from another continent. The owner of a car dealership, he was handsome, wealthy and wore the easy smile of a successful businessman. I got to know him a bit because we stayed in the same small hotel and I ate breakfast with his team in the tropical garden. Their team lost all their matches but they came for the adventure. And for the car dealer this meant hooking up with pixie MILF.

I only realized that they were screwing the final evening of the event at the post competition party. I went out on the street for some fresh air and caught sight of the guy standing alone by the exit. Suddenly pixie strode out. The two gazed at each other, laughed, locked hands and walked off.

I mentioned it one of his teammates who was working on a bottle of rum. He replied "XXX would never do that." But he was because grown men with kids and wife don't walk off into the night, dumping everyone from their teams, to go and place Scrabble.

Later going through iPhone pics, I discovered that I had without paying attention snapped shots of the two of them together as a smiling couple earlier in the week. They were not very guarded about appearing like that because people in love are often too elated to conceal their happiness. I wasn't paying attention at the time. On FB I looked at their respective families. There was very little pubic display of affection between pixie and the father of her children. They could never be together in real life, no matter how exciting the affair had been.

There was very little public display of affection on FB between the pixie and her fiancé. Suddenly in late autumn he announced that she bought him a 9mm pistol for his birthday. "Best wifey ever!! Got me a 9mm Ruger," he wrote.

A couple of weeks later she started posting pics of her finance and wrote "date night w my main squeeze". Her OM also posted stuff about his wife.

Her comment seemed almost be a message to OM. He was not "main man" but had some other role. In the end it seems that both of the cheaters had to psychologically distance themselves from the affair high. Luckily for them there was an ocean between them.

Were they super evil people? Do they have personality disorders? Naw, I think they were just bored and looking for excitement.

The affair must have been known to their teammates, so it is now like a buried mine that could blow up the two families. There on FB you can feel them working to get out of the so-called fog. Must be horrible as the guilt grows at the same time that the euphoria abates. They are still friends on FB.

Grid,

Your wife absolutely hated coming down from the love cloud.


----------



## Chaparral

I don't think Satan would make one of his minions swallow their tongue while they are still doing his work. Wonder how her church group is handling her affair with a much younger man.


----------



## Chuck71

Maybe that was a message about how your W would cut your heart open with her tongue. Words can cut like a knife


----------



## Keepin-my-head-up

Chuck71 said:


> Maybe that was a message about how your W would cut your heart open with her tongue. Words can cut like a knife


Or maybe they were closer than you know and her swallowing her tongue keeps the secret.

A nightmare is just a nightmare but if we gonna speculate.
Let's make it JUICY!

Enjoy the holidays


----------



## Thundarr

gridcom said:


> Same dream, 2 nights in a row.
> 
> Not only do I hardly ever remember my dreams, but to have the same one twice is weird and freaking me out
> 
> My wife and I are with the devil. He looks like a guy I used to do business with years ago who I always thought looked like the devil. In the dream he demands my wife swallow her own tongue. I argue with him profusely, plead with him. I beg him not to make her do it. He makes her do it anyway (of course, he's the devil).
> 
> It's upsetting.


My guess? Your dream is about feeling helpless and feeling loss. You couldn't fix things because she didn't want it fixed and you can't prevent her from crashing because she's not listening. Weird dreams like this are probably common when we have no control of things going on around us. At first anyway.


----------



## gridcom

Tonights dream. It's my birthday and my wife is throwing me a party at some bar. My friends are there and we are "jamming". I haven't played drums in a long time and I keep telling people that I used to be good. As a gift, my wife got me Cheech And Chong to come to the party and perform. I talk to her on the phone about how they are being paid ($1000-ha), and she tells me she never paid them and I have to pay them when they arrive. I tell her I only have $200. We start to argue about the money and she hangs up on me.

Suddenly I am behind my drums and they are set up perfectly. I am very happy about this. We are going to play Bob Marley's "Get Up, Stand Up", but every time the song gets counted off (1-2-3-4) the drums get moved around so I cant play. Then the song gets counted off again (1-2-3-4) and the drums are covered by blankets. Somehow, we proceed to fumble through. I'm thinking "I suck at reggae. Who picked this?"

Cheech and Chong come in the bar with white face paint and looking more like Rob Zombie. We bust into "Earache My Eye" but nobody but me knows how to play it (completely impossible considering the line up). Tommy Chong comes over and is pissed. He makes me stop playing and tells me he wants the money. I insist that my wife was supposed to pay him. He tells me "Then we're taking everything."

Right then, a moving truck comes rolling up beyond the completely glass front of the bar. My wife is driving, and my kids are in the front seats. They are all crying.

Merry Christmas.


----------



## LongWalk

Wow, what a nightmare.

Grid,

Hang in there, buddy.
Go down to basement to see if they're still there.

No matter how rusty you are, you're daughter will love it if you teach her to play a little.

Money problems are shared by many. Horrible to look n the mailbox and see bills arrive. I know the feeling.


----------



## Chuck71

As pop used to say, "You'll get paid when I get paid."


----------



## gridcom

Lots of chit-chat/small talk around here. No fighting, just two people acting civil and going through a divorce. Hard to be "indifferent" over Christmas. All the small talk and sometimes I want it/like it/need her/need to be connected, but most of the time I'm suppressing anger and am just angry. I remember that she betrayed all of us and stabbed me right in the back. We are not friends.

How can you stab me like that and then get angry that you got blood all over you?

That's the thing that bothers me. She's taken how I've reacted to what she has done to me and now rewritten marital history to say that this is the way I've reacted the entire marriage. My anger over this represents our whole marriage.

My reaction to all of this has made it easier for her to justify what she did to me. I should have listened to you all from the beginning, that much is clear. It might have made a difference. I hope I don't go through life wondering.

I am doing my best to get through this and disconnect. She disconnected a long time ago and is having no problems at all.
My kids both know what's up and there is a huge cloud hanging over this house. 

I am reading Blacksmith01's thread and am halfway through. CPS just got thrown into the mix. Don't spoil the ending. I don't know if reading about people who have it worse than me (although he does have his house and custody of his kids, so maybe not "worse") makes me feel better or more depressed. 

Yes, this is depression. I don't need a doctor to tell me. There is nothing that can make me smile right now


----------



## Chuck71

Blacksmith01s thread ended like this..... just kidding! I knew I was "getting there" when I spent more

time reading other's threads. When someone re-writes history, they are the author. Therefore you have no

control of the outcome, no matter how misconstrued the facts are. And by re-writing history, facts MUST

be misconstrued. Always keep that in mind.

I put up with more than I should have with my XW but when I decided it was over.... it was over.

I'm glad I did.... or I would have second guessed myself.... maybe.

Be civil as possible. Brighten up when you see your girls. You are not far from the point where you will start

looking through your STBXW, not at her. The moment I did this, my then STBXW made reaches.

There is no certain time when this will happen to you... but you will defiantly know it. So will she


----------



## bfree

gridcom said:


> Lots of chit-chat/small talk around here. No fighting, just two people acting civil and going through a divorce. Hard to be "indifferent" over Christmas. All the small talk and sometimes I want it/like it/need her/need to be connected, but most of the time I'm suppressing anger and am just angry. I remember that she betrayed all of us and stabbed me right in the back. We are not friends.
> 
> How can you stab me like that and then get angry that you got blood all over you?
> 
> *That's the thing that bothers me. She's taken how I've reacted to what she has done to me and now rewritten marital history to say that this is the way I've reacted the entire marriage. My anger over this represents our whole marriage.*
> 
> My reaction to all of this has made it easier for her to justify what she did to me. I should have listened to you all from the beginning, that much is clear. It might have made a difference. I hope I don't go through life wondering.
> 
> I am doing my best to get through this and disconnect. She disconnected a long time ago and is having no problems at all.
> My kids both know what's up and there is a huge cloud hanging over this house.
> 
> I am reading Blacksmith01's thread and am halfway through. CPS just got thrown into the mix. Don't spoil the ending. I don't know if reading about people who have it worse than me (although he does have his house and custody of his kids, so maybe not "worse") makes me feel better or more depressed.
> 
> Yes, this is depression. I don't need a doctor to tell me. There is nothing that can make me smile right now


If you were acting jovial and happy your wife would say that you don't and never cared about her and the marriage. If you were acting detached (spock-like) she would say that you are cold and have been the entire marriage. When you were trying to be supportive and understanding she was demanding that you give her space. Grid, it doesn't matter how you are acting. It doesn't matter what emotions you are going through. She will turn it around and use it to justify her actions and decisions. The heck with what she thinks and feels. You think and feel whatever way you need to work through this quagmire and come out the other side a better stronger man. She doesn't matter anymore, only you matter.


----------



## Pluto2

I remember how frustrating and painful it was when my ex re-wrote our marriage. How could he not see what he was doing? How could he forget the way our girls would run out of the room and hide in their closets in tears? How could he just flat out ignore all his A?

You want your W to see the truth of what she's done and how it has forever changed your family. But you can't. You can't control it. The biggest change in me came when I accepted, really accepted, that I had no control over how someone else thought or acted, or what they said. I knew my truth. The more you can detach (in time) the less her versions will matter.

Right now, be all about you kids, as I know you are.


----------



## farsidejunky

You keep clutching, Grid. The harder you hold on, the longer the healing process takes. 

No matter what happens, both you and your daughters will come away from this with bumps and bruises. And no mater what your STBX says, so will she. 
She is cutting off her nose to spite her face. And no matter what, you can't stop it. You have to let her do it. 

Accepting that will make it easier to let go.

Merry Christmas, brother.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Chaparral

gridcom said:


> Tonights dream. It's my birthday and my wife is throwing me a party at some bar. My friends are there and we are "jamming". I haven't played drums in a long time and I keep telling people that I used to be good. As a gift, my wife got me Cheech And Chong to come to the party and perform. I talk to her on the phone about how they are being paid ($1000-ha), and she tells me she never paid them and I have to pay them when they arrive. I tell her I only have $200. We start to argue about the money and she hangs up on me.
> 
> Suddenly I am behind my drums and they are set up perfectly. I am very happy about this. We are going to play Bob Marley's "Get Up, Stand Up", but every time the song gets counted off (1-2-3-4) the drums get moved around so I cant play. Then the song gets counted off again (1-2-3-4) and the drums are covered by blankets. Somehow, we proceed to fumble through. I'm thinking "I suck at reggae. Who picked this?"
> 
> Cheech and Chong come in the bar with white face paint and looking more like Rob Zombie. We bust into "Earache My Eye" but nobody but me knows how to play it (completely impossible considering the line up). Tommy Chong comes over and is pissed. He makes me stop playing and tells me he wants the money. I insist that my wife was supposed to pay him. He tells me "Then we're taking everything."
> 
> Right then, a moving truck comes rolling up beyond the completely glass front of the bar. My wife is driving, and my kids are in the front seats. They are all crying.
> 
> Merry Christmas.


Get your drums set up, get your amp turned up and play along with this. Bonus points if it rattles your wife. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeDMnyQzS88


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Meh... Your dreams are you subconsciously dealing with your guilt and realization she is to blame as well. When you get healthier, go reread your thread. You took all blame and insults through out this thread from posters and your wife. Your therapy is helping you deal with the problems and your mind is trying to reconcile the FACT you both broke your marriage not just you.


----------



## gridcom

Blasting through Blacksmith01's thread. Getting towards the end (dont spoil it!), but here we go again. Another defiant woman, clueless until the bitter, bitter end. The world telling her to get her head on straight, she essentially giving the world the middle finger. Now eating so much humble pie, I feel SORRY for the woman. She lost EVERYTHING. Such a shame.

Quoting Tunera Dec 2014:

_I'm starting to believe that wayward women are so easy to manipulate, because they are forever searching that 'fairy-tale' romance they spent all their childhood dreaming of. That men are so much easier to manipulate because THEIR childhood was spent dreaming about just getting laid as often as possible. So when women's long-lost dream boyfriend shows up, they're all in. Men just want sex._


----------



## ButtPunch

Things will get better faster once you stop living together. 

Merry xmas Grid.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## gridcom

Read the rest of Blacksmith01's thread. Just amazed at the stupidity of some people. I know many of you have seen this movie so many times, but I just cannot get over how dumb and stubborn to the death people can be.

Here's a woman who lost EVERYTHING. She's living in a sh*tbox with folding chairs to sit on, she lost custody of her kids and the kids can't stand her. Blacksmith, 2+ years on, you can tell he still hurts because of the damage she did to all of them. Her actions just destroyed her whole family. He's moved on, but can't get past it. She isn't worthy of him thinking twice about her, yet he can't stop thinking about what she did. He carry's the anger. How much longer?

And all she had to do, one friggin' time, is just admit what she did, that she was wrong, come clean and take full responsibility, and sincerely ask for forgiveness. How hard is that? Apparently, it's impossible. 

Does she not see how obvious it is? Or is she so delusional that she thinks she somehow played it all right? 

I was reading. 210 pages. By page 100, when she had already hit rock bottom, I figured that the next 110 pages were her pulling her head out of her a$$ and redeeming herself and them reconciling.

This world needs more happy endings.

I just sat here tonight with my mother, my wife, and my kids and pretended all was just peachy. Well, THEY all pretended and I just went into auto pilot mode. My mother is the ULTIMATE rug sweeper. Her whole side of the family, I'm still to this day learning about awful crap that went on on her side of the family. They just never talked about it. Old Italian Mafia nonsense. "Don't talk about it and it never happened" Just suffer in silence.

My wife is being nice to me. Not indifferent. Nice. Like we are friends. WE ARE NOT FRIENDS! I have not been perfect. Sometimes I let my guard down and act friendly. It's hard not to. I love the woman. I hate her for what she did. I love her, though. I am going to push this mediation hard next week. I can't stand living like this. Let's just get this over with

I dont want to be like Blacksmith. I don't want this to carry on and on and on. Coming up on 6 months and I am completely emotionally spent and spun out.


----------



## Marc878

Merry Christmas, it's kids time just sit back and watch their joy.


----------



## anchorwatch

Your marriage is in a shambles, but your not Blacksmith and you W isn't a crack head meth freak.

Hopefully the two of you can learn to co-parent though the holidays.

Like it ir not, your children are depending on it. 

Wishing you well.


----------



## gridcom

Marc878 said:


> Merry Christmas, it's kids time just sit back and watch their joy.


Yeah, about that. 10 yr old daughter is going to be bent because she got half the gifts my 5 yr old got. Nevermind she got a $200+ camera and primo tickets to see WWE Raw that cost $300 (I mean....Ok...I dont mind escorting her), we must have spent $700 on the 10 year old and the 5 year old got a bunch of $10 nonsense toys. Rubiks Cube. Toy headphones. But she got a bunch of it. We kind of tried to set up the older one not to freak out about it being potentially so unbalanced in the morning, but that alone made her freak out. AHHHH, Christmas.

It makes me mad at how shallow and missing the point she is, but truth be told I did the same thing (as I'm sure a lot of you did)

I got my XMas bonus and got myself a new pair of earbuds (Klipsch), DDP Yoga, some wacky socks, some plain black t-shirts, a pretty nice jacket, and a book about the 1976 MLB Season (I love the 70's). I shaved my head and my grey beard. I look younger, but I have to lose some weight (thus, the DDP yoga). My lower back has been hurting and I read some good things about the Yoga. Combined with a diet. I should be good to go. 

My wife made homemade Lobster Ravioli's tonight and they were excellent. I mean, exceptional. I didn't want to say thank you, so I didn't. I just cleaned up dinner instead, and she thanked me. Whatever.


----------



## Marc878

You lose weight it'll help the back issue. Nothing worse than back problems.


----------



## farsidejunky

I have a coworker who swears by the DDP yoga. She has fused lumbar veterbra. 

As for your situation, it sucks. It will continue to suck until you are separated. 

Nonetheless, and as hard as it is, try to smile more, brother. Start doing things that will bring that smile that don't somehow involve your STBX.

And remember there is a difference between joy and happiness. Try to find your joy, brother.

Merry Christmas.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Evinrude58

Grid: here's how mine has panned out. Just to let you know what is likely in the future for you.

The bad:
Tonight was the last night of my two weeks with the kids. We had a really good time, they opened their presents, and we ate dinner. Lots of good food and playing, but part of the time I was dreading their leaving. At 8pm, the ex and her bf picked up the kids. He's wealthy and they are catching a plane for a week in Colorado skiing/- a trip I couldn't afford to take them on. I had to see MY kids get in the car with my trashy, unfaithful, gold-digging ex wife and her bf who doesn't even have a job. Inherited wealth.

The good:

I was fed a great meal tonight by a beautiful physician who speaks 3 languages and is double board certified and tells me she loves me every time she walks by. I have totally fallen for her and rarely think of my ex wife. I wonder now, after being with a woman whom I consider a normal person, why I didn't realize what my ex was. I never get angry or disappointed now. I admire and respect this new lady. She brings me nothing but happiness and adds to my life. If we have an arguement, she won't talk for a while until she has listened to my point of view and thought about it. She never yells at me. Of course, I can't even get angry because her attitude is one of thoughtfulness and respect. I feel as if I'm always heard. 
I see a brighter future for myself than ever before. Do I still hurt about the divorce? Yes. But I now am starting to see that the ex may have done me the greatest favor of all.

I am highly suspicious that you will eventually feel the same way I do. When you find a woman that listens to you, is able to accept blame when she's wrong, and actually says she is sorry and MEANS it, you will find any anger you were beginning to feel will melt away like a stick of butter. When you have someone that listens to you, and you're in the wrong, you will be appreciated when you admit it and say YOU'RE sorry. It will absolutely change your life when you experience this. You'll realize how happy you are when you're not disappointed in yourself for losing your temper, and are able to work out issues in a reasonable way that leaves both involved satisfied.

It's Christmas, Grid. You won't see it for a while, but down the road if you start thinking in detail about the events during the roughest times lately, you will see how God has helped you so much more than you could ever realize now. Take heart! He is holding your hand every step of the way, and very likely if you look for HIs guidance, you will be led to a happier life than ever before. 

It will happen, especially since you are willing to do your part to MAKE it happen. 

Merry Christmas! I promise things will get better. They have for me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lilac23

gridcom said:


> Tonights dream. It's my birthday and my wife is throwing me a party at some bar. My friends are there and we are "jamming". I haven't played drums in a long time and I keep telling people that I used to be good. As a gift, my wife got me Cheech And Chong to come to the party and perform. I talk to her on the phone about how they are being paid ($1000-ha), and she tells me she never paid them and I have to pay them when they arrive. I tell her I only have $200. We start to argue about the money and she hangs up on me.
> 
> Suddenly I am behind my drums and they are set up perfectly. I am very happy about this. We are going to play Bob Marley's "Get Up, Stand Up", but every time the song gets counted off (1-2-3-4) the drums get moved around so I cant play. Then the song gets counted off again (1-2-3-4) and the drums are covered by blankets. Somehow, we proceed to fumble through. I'm thinking "I suck at reggae. Who picked this?"
> 
> Cheech and Chong come in the bar with white face paint and looking more like Rob Zombie. We bust into "Earache My Eye" but nobody but me knows how to play it (completely impossible considering the line up). Tommy Chong comes over and is pissed. He makes me stop playing and tells me he wants the money. I insist that my wife was supposed to pay him. He tells me "Then we're taking everything."
> 
> Right then, a moving truck comes rolling up beyond the completely glass front of the bar. My wife is driving, and my kids are in the front seats. They are all crying.
> 
> Merry Christmas.


This one doesn't take a genius to interpret. Wife driving the moving van, arguing about money, wife being delusional about money, 'we're taking everything', kids crying? Sounds like your life of late, no?


----------



## Lilac23

gridcom said:


> My wife is being nice to me. Not indifferent. Nice. Like we are friends. WE ARE NOT FRIENDS!


Then why does she seem to think you are?


----------



## Chuck71

Grid.... if you're a sports nut, be glad to send you links to my articles from my sports writing days.

The dynasty 70s, O's from 69-71, A's 72-74, Reds 75-76, Yankees 77-78.

Dolphins... then Steelers. Pre free agency. Different time. You could approach superstars then.... not anymore.

A certain player made his debut within a month of my birth.... and was involved in a trade that defined a 

franchise for twenty years.... and this trade occurred during my "coming of age."

Yes it was on vacation, I was 16. But it made for the first book in a trilogy. 

I'm proud of you for using your eyes now... you are "seeing"

Believe it or not.... a day will come when you can dodge her bullets without even trying.......

I did..... I ain't special....... therefore so will you


----------



## Chaparral

gridcom said:


> Lots of chit-chat/small talk around here. No fighting, just two people acting civil and going through a divorce. Hard to be "indifferent" over Christmas. All the small talk and sometimes I want it/like it/need her/need to be connected, but most of the time I'm suppressing anger and am just angry. I remember that she betrayed all of us and stabbed me right in the back. We are not friends.
> 
> How can you stab me like that and then get angry that you got blood all over you?
> 
> That's the thing that bothers me. She's taken how I've reacted to what she has done to me and now rewritten marital history to say that this is the way I've reacted the entire marriage. My anger over this represents our whole marriage.
> 
> My reaction to all of this has made it easier for her to justify what she did to me. I should have listened to you all from the beginning, that much is clear. It might have made a difference. I hope I don't go through life wondering.
> 
> I am doing my best to get through this and disconnect. She disconnected a long time ago and is having no problems at all.
> My kids both know what's up and there is a huge cloud hanging over this house.
> 
> I am reading Blacksmith01's thread and am halfway through. CPS just got thrown into the mix. Don't spoil the ending. I don't know if reading about people who have it worse than me (although he does have his house and custody of his kids, so maybe not "worse") makes me feel better or more depressed.
> 
> Yes, this is depression. I don't need a doctor to tell me. There is nothing that can make me smile right now


So...........you're not doing the 180. You need a real 2x4 wra pped around your head.


----------



## TeddieG

Evinrude58 said:


> Grid: here's how mine has panned out. Just to let you know what is likely in the future for you.
> 
> The bad:
> Tonight was the last night of my two weeks with the kids. We had a really good time, they opened their presents, and we ate dinner. Lots of good food and playing, but part of the time I was dreading their leaving. At 8pm, the ex and her bf picked up the kids. He's wealthy and they are catching a plane for a week in Colorado skiing/- a trip I couldn't afford to take them on. I had to see MY kids get in the car with my trashy, unfaithful, gold-digging ex wife and her bf who doesn't even have a job. Inherited wealth.
> 
> The good:
> 
> I was fed a great meal tonight by a beautiful physician who speaks 3 languages and is double board certified and tells me she loves me every time she walks by. I have totally fallen for her and rarely think of my ex wife. I wonder now, after being with a woman whom I consider a normal person, why I didn't realize what my ex was. I never get angry or disappointed now. I admire and respect this new lady. She brings me nothing but happiness and adds to my life. If we have an arguement, she won't talk for a while until she has listened to my point of view and thought about it. She never yells at me. Of course, I can't even get angry because her attitude is one of thoughtfulness and respect. I feel as if I'm always heard.
> I see a brighter future for myself than ever before. Do I still hurt about the divorce? Yes. But I now am starting to see that the ex may have done me the greatest favor of all.
> 
> I am highly suspicious that you will eventually feel the same way I do. When you find a woman that listens to you, is able to accept blame when she's wrong, and actually says she is sorry and MEANS it, you will find any anger you were beginning to feel will melt away like a stick of butter. When you have someone that listens to you, and you're in the wrong, you will be appreciated when you admit it and say YOU'RE sorry. It will absolutely change your life when you experience this. You'll realize how happy you are when you're not disappointed in yourself for losing your temper, and are able to work out issues in a reasonable way that leaves both involved satisfied.
> 
> It's Christmas, Grid. You won't see it for a while, but down the road if you start thinking in detail about the events during the roughest times lately, you will see how God has helped you so much more than you could ever realize now. Take heart! He is holding your hand every step of the way, and very likely if you look for HIs guidance, you will be led to a happier life than ever before.
> 
> It will happen, especially since you are willing to do your part to MAKE it happen.
> 
> Merry Christmas! I promise things will get better. They have for me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What a fabulous and hopeful and lovely post!


----------



## gridcom

Lilac23 said:


> gridcom said:
> 
> 
> 
> My wife is being nice to me. Not indifferent. Nice. Like we are friends. WE ARE NOT FRIENDS!
> 
> 
> 
> Then why does she seem to think you are?
Click to expand...

My mother just asked me the same thing. I have no idea. 

I think her attitude is "ok, I've done what I've done and now everybody is ok with it, right? Right. Now, let's just all be friends and don't make me feel bad about what I've done."

I'm at my mothers now and she just can't get over how friendly my wife was yesterday

Now, for some reason my wife thinks we, as a family, are going to my sisters tomorrow. I just don't get it, I really don't. The woman is just twisted in her head. 

As far as me doing 180's, while following that template may have benefitted me, I still don't believe in being anybody but the real me, for better or worse. I guess you could say I am doing the 180 though, except I'm not pretending to be happy. I don't pretend. I'm not an actor. I'm not pleading or begging or following her around the house or talking about the future, but as far as acting like I'm over it, it's just not me to play games.


----------



## jld

Do you think she is reconsidering the divorce?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## just got it 55

jld said:


> Do you think she is reconsidering the divorce?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


JLD I wish you had TS's [Mrs.Grid] ear 

Maybe you could school her on pride and humility.

55

ETA: Merry Christmas Grid


----------



## LongWalk

jld said:


> Do you think she is reconsidering the divorce?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


JLD,

Grid's wife is not willing to change her mind because she is not motivated to do the so-called heavy lifting. She feels liberated by the cheating. A little dirtied, too, but that is not big deal. She has rationalized that her moral failings are simply part of a bigger collapse, for which she blames Grid.

This divorce is also a power struggle. She has long felt unequal and now she is not going to wear what she feels is a yoke.


----------



## lifeistooshort

LongWalk said:


> JLD,
> 
> Grid's wife is not willing to change her mind because she is not motivated to do the so-called heavy lifting. She feels liberated by the cheating. A little dirtied, too, but that is not big deal. She has rationalized that her moral failings are simply part of a bigger collapse, for which she blames Grid.
> 
> This divorce is also a power struggle. She has long felt unequal and now she is not going to wear what she feels is a yoke.


I completely agree with this. Whether true or not she has long felt powerless and has used this affair and grid's reaction to wield power over him. 

Even if she wanted back in she wouldn't be willing to instill proper boundaries because she'd see it as grid continuing to control her. Of course proper boundaries have nothing to do with control but that is how she'd see it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

Lilac23 said:


> Then why does she seem to think you are?


Because she's a fvcking idiot.


----------



## gridcom

jld said:


> Do you think she is reconsidering the divorce?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No. But I do believe either consciously or subconsciously she wants to keep the option to come back warm. Which is so disrespectful, but she's spent her whole life being told by everyone (including me) that she is a saint and morally and ethically above most. And so she doesn't consider herself to be wallowing in the dirt with "those types"

She can't wrap her head around what she's done. "It must be him that MADE me do this."

And, like the last several of my posts suggest, I'm not having it. I've more than owned my part in our marital issues, but when you break it all down it was all very fixable stuff. I am damn fine marriage material. Someone told her nice things and she folded like a cheap tent


----------



## lifeistooshort

gridcom said:


> No. But I do believe either consciously or subconsciously she wants to keep the option to come back warm. Which is so disrespectful, but she's spent her whole life being told by everyone (including me) that she is a saint and morally and ethically above most. And so she doesn't consider herself to be wallowing in the dirt with "those types"
> 
> She can't wrap her head around what she's done. "It must be him that MADE me do this."
> 
> And, like the last several of my posts suggest, I'm not having it. I've more than owned my part in our marital issues, but when you break it all down it was all very fixable stuff. I am damn fine marriage material. Someone told her nice things and she folded like a cheap tent


I don't think this is unusual for those shopping for better options whether they cheat or not.

Stinks for the plan B spouse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

bandit.45 said:


> Because she's a fvcking idiot.


Would you please stop talking that way about the mother of his children?


----------



## jld

gridcom said:


> No. But I do believe either consciously or subconsciously she wants to keep the option to come back warm. Which is so disrespectful, but she's spent her whole life being told by everyone (including me) that she is a saint and morally and ethically above most. And so she doesn't consider herself to be wallowing in the dirt with "those types"
> 
> She can't wrap her head around what she's done. "It must be him that MADE me do this."
> 
> And, like the last several of my posts suggest, I'm not having it. I've more than owned my part in our marital issues, but when you break it all down it was all very fixable stuff. I am damn fine marriage material. Someone told her nice things and she folded like a cheap tent


I wish I could wave a magic wand and make her kneel at your feet and beg your forgiveness, grid. I wish my magic wand could make her humble herself and be completely transparent with you. I wish she could see her daughters' pain and the huge change in lifestyle those girls are going to suffer.

I am so sorry, grid. I don't think the restoration of your family will happen without big changes on at least one of your parts. You know I don't think you ever really followed my advice. I think you only did what you felt like doing, same as your wife. 

I put a lot of pressure on you because you were the only one here, and because I do not come out of an equal marriage mindset. I really do expect the man to be the head of the family, the inspiration to his wife and kids. 

I expected you to be humble and an example to her. I wanted you to be understanding and compassionate, but firm, with her. I think that brings people around in the end. An example of integrity wins respect, and trust follows the earning of respect.

I don't want to completely give up hope. Maybe your wife will realize what all is being lost, and will indeed crawl to you. You would still have to do your own heavy lifting, but you would be doing yours beside her. You could both grow in the ways you each need to.


----------



## Lilac23

jld said:


> I wish I could wave a magic wand and make her kneel at your feet and beg your forgiveness, grid. I wish my magic wand could make her humble herself and be completely transparent with you. I wish she could see her daughters' pain and the huge change in lifestyle those girls are going to suffer.
> 
> I am so sorry, grid. I don't think the restoration of your family will happen without big changes on at least one of your parts. You know I don't think you ever really followed my advice. I think you only did what you felt like doing, same as your wife.
> 
> I put a lot of pressure on you because you were the only one here, and because I do not come out of an equal marriage mindset. I really do expect the man to be the head of the family, the inspiration to his wife and kids.
> 
> I expected you to be humble and an example to her. I wanted you to be understanding and compassionate, but firm, with her. I think that brings people around in the end. An example of integrity wins respect, and trust follows the earning of respect.
> 
> I don't want to completely give up hope. Maybe your wife will realize what all is being lost, and will indeed crawl to you. You would still have to do your own heavy lifting, but you would be doing yours beside her. You could both grow in the ways you each need to.


I don't see this as grid's fault, there's not much you can do when person wants out. He was submissive at the beginning and she went out with OM again, should he stay home babysitting while she's out playing Mrs. Robinson?


----------



## jld

Lilac23 said:


> I don't see this as grid's fault, there's not much you can do when person wants out. He was submissive at the beginning and she went out with OM again, should he stay home babysitting while she's out playing Mrs. Robinson?


I think he was submissive in that he kept looking to her to fix things. A dominant would shelve his pride, figure out what her needs were, and get meeting them. His actions would persuade her to come back to the marriage.

He got angry with her several times. The exposure he did did not work to make her reconcile. The threats he made just pushed her further towards divorce.

Maybe it is just over. I guess only grid and his wife know for sure.

Grid, it is not too late to do a serious Plan A and then Plan B, if needed. You could go to her tonight and have a heart to heart talk.


----------



## bandit.45

jld said:


> Would you please stop talking that way about the mother of his children?


No


----------



## jld

bandit.45 said:


> No


smh


----------



## bandit.45

jld said:


> smh


blbh


----------



## jld

bandit.45 said:


> blbh


Not sure what that means. And I think this is becoming a t/j.

Back to you, grid.


----------



## jld

Merry Christmas, 3X. 

Back to you, grid.


----------



## gridcom

First of all, I find it amazing and funny that someone actually said "while she's out playing Mrs. Robinson"

Secondly, JLD, I appreciate where you are coming from and maybe if I wanted to eat sh*t I could save my marriage. But, I'm not. We decided to fix the marriage (well, she pretended to) and I had one simple boundary. NO CONTACT. And she broke the boundary and got caught and her attitude was "oh, well" (shrugs shoulders). And that's that. It's unfortunate and it hurts but you don't set up very simple and obvious boundaries just to have them broken and then make NEW boundaries. 

It's well documented in 10,000 places that you cannot reconcile a marriage wounded by infidelity while the AP is in the picture. It's really very simple

Our MC told me she was addicted to the affair and her confidant at church told me she was "being led by the devil"

And I'm not going to IGNORE all of that and forge ahead and kill her with kindness when she has said, quote, "I don't give a sh*t about you."

I'm just venting because she makes small talk and is being friendly now. I mean, what gives? It's because she wants to keep me warm and in check. She doesn't want me to detach until SHE is ready and has herself situated. 

I'm not playing it like that. She betrayed her kids and wrecked havoc on them, on her home, her family, my family, etc etc. JLD, your solution is for me to ignore that she did all of this including broke NC and kiss her a$$ no matter what she does. Where do I draw the line? Do I catch her in his bed than drive her home saying "shame, shame" and try even harder? 

I am going to come out of this funk. The holiday season doesn't help. I sat there this AM thinking "this is the last time". A friend of mine who's divorced (twice, from the same guy) opened her gifts with her kids this morning and then watched her kids get in the car with their dad and spent all day and night alone watching Food Network by herself. 

I am going to rise above this. I really am hurt and angry but more than that, I really just want to get this over with and get on with my life now


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> LOL
> 
> A dominate male would have kicked her to the curb a long time ago. She is not only an idiot but a piece of sh* t selfish cheater too.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


A dominant male would dominate by taking charge of the situation and doing what needed to be done to solve the problem. That's what leaders do.

I think Mrs. Grid is an addict. I don't think calling an addict a "piece of sh* t selfish cheater" is helpful. My opinion, I guess.

Grid, I will go back to just addressing you now. 

Just saw that you posted. Will read and respond.


----------



## ButtPunch

Grid 

That was your best post yet. 

She does not define you. 


You will rise above this.

You do not need her to be happy.

You do not need her to be a good father.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

gridcom said:


> First of all, I find it amazing and funny that someone actually said "while she's out playing Mrs. Robinson"
> 
> Secondly, JLD, I appreciate where you are coming from and maybe if I wanted to eat sh*t I could save my marriage. But, I'm not. We decided to fix the marriage (well, she pretended to) and I had one simple boundary. NO CONTACT. And she broke the boundary and got caught and her attitude was "oh, well" (shrugs shoulders). And that's that. It's unfortunate and it hurts but you don't set up very simple and obvious boundaries just to have them broken and then make NEW boundaries.
> 
> It's well documented in 10,000 places that you cannot reconcile a marriage wounded by infidelity while the AP is in the picture. It's really very simple
> 
> Our MC told me she was addicted to the affair and her confidant at church told me she was "being led by the devil"
> 
> And I'm not going to IGNORE all of that and forge ahead and kill her with kindness when she has said, quote, "I don't give a sh*t about you."
> 
> I'm just venting because she makes small talk and is being friendly now. I mean, what gives? It's because she wants to keep me warm and in check. She doesn't want me to detach until SHE is ready and has herself situated.
> 
> I'm not playing it like that. She betrayed her kids and wrecked havoc on them, on her home, her family, my family, etc etc. JLD, your solution is for me to ignore that she did all of this including broke NC and kiss her a$$ no matter what she does. Where do I draw the line? Do I catch her in his bed than drive her home saying "shame, shame" and try even harder?
> 
> I am going to come out of this funk. The holiday season doesn't help. I sat there this AM thinking "this is the last time". A friend of mine who's divorced (twice, from the same guy) opened her gifts with her kids this morning and then watched her kids get in the car with their dad and spent all day and night alone watching Food Network by herself.
> 
> I am going to rise above this. I really am hurt and angry but more than that, I really just want to get this over with and get on with my life now


Maybe it is over, grid. Maybe the love cannot be rekindled. But the way she was acting in the last 24 hours gave me hope.

Grid, I don't think I could stay with my husband under the circumstances you are dealing with. I would feel completely rejected and would not want him to stay with me if he did not really want to, anyway. Plus, I would have lost all respect for him. And in the kind of relationship we have, my losing all respect would completely change the dynamic. 

I think you love her, though. And you are a good guy. You really are. You might be a hothead, but you have a good heart. And that counts for _a lot_ in life.

She might come around. She might be ready to humble herself before you at some point. I am mad that it is likely to have cost you both unnecessary money by that point.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

gridcom said:


> I dont want to be like Blacksmith. I don't want this to carry on and on and on. Coming up on 6 months and I am completely emotionally spent and spun out.


Actually,, you are reading his thread through your own misery. I've had a few PMs and exchanges in his thread. He HATES his ex wife and that's the problem. He needs to move on, to indifference. Yes, the same thing you need to do.


----------



## Evinrude58

Grid,
I think you are most definitely on the way to a mind that is free of being tortured by this tragedy.

You are starting to see reality now. You are exactly right in your interpretation of your wife's "niceness". 

It is astonishing to me how some people just can't seem to fathom that a person can betray their spouse in the most evil way possible, then tell their spouse they did it, tell their spouse they "don't give a **** about them", and then rub their face in it and tell the betrayed spouse it's all their fault! Some people can't grasp that this person not only has no love for her betrayed spouse, but that they are STILL just taking care of their own selfish desires with every move they make.

I guess some people will never understand infidelity since they haven't experienced it. 

People change when they cheat. They no longer care about the person they loved. At least your wife has been relatively truthful with you since d/day. She told you she didn't love you and wanted the other man.
There is no way in the universe that you should be expected to ignore that and squirm around trying to "satisfy her needs"..... Since she doesn't love you, anyone with an IQ above my shoe size can see that satisfying her needs is impossible for you.

No doubt a confident, strong person with acute mental clarity would see their cheating wife for what they were, divorce them, and move on to life where they can be happy and possibly find a trustworthy person to invest their feelings.

I'm glad that your mind is healing and you are able to see your way through this. May this be the last unhappy Christmas you ever spend, and that you are able to forgive your wife eventually and find happiness.
You are on the right path to do that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ButtPunch

jld said:


> I think Mrs. Grid is an addict. I don't think calling an addict a "piece of sh* t selfish cheater" is helpful. My opinion, I guess.
> 
> .


How do you deal with an addict? You cut them loose. You don't enable them with kindness and humility. You love them from a distance and let them hit rock bottom. Tough love.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TeddieG

@jld, "I think Mrs. Grid is an addict. I don't think calling an addict a "piece of sh* t selfish cheater" . My opinion, I guess." 

I think Mrs. Grid IS an addict. I think many cheaters are addicts. But I come here to vent and say that my h is a selfish cheater because he IS a grown-up and has moral and ethical responsibility for his choices. I don't tell HIM he is a POS selfish cheater, but sometimes people need to vent. People have choices. And having a safe place to vent and let off steam and say what they feel in a neutral zone is really helpful to the kind of people who process their feelings and reach conclusions by talking through things.


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## jld

This article on addiction was posted recently on TAM:

http://themindunleashed.org/2013/10/30-traits-of-empath.html<br />

_"Loving an addict is really hard. When I looked at the addicts I love, it was always tempting to follow the tough love advice doled out by reality shows like Intervention — tell the addict to shape up, or cut them off. Their message is that an addict who won’t stop should be shunned. It’s the logic of the drug war, imported into our private lives. 

But in fact, I learned, that will only deepen their addiction — and you may lose them altogether. I came home determined to tie the addicts in my life closer to me than ever — to let them know I love them unconditionally, whether they stop, or whether they can’t.

When I returned from my long journey, I looked at my ex-boyfriend, in withdrawal, trembling on my spare bed, and I thought about him differently. For a century now, we have been singing war songs about addicts. It occurred to me as I wiped his brow, we should have been singing love songs to them all along."_


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## ButtPunch

jld said:


> This article on addiction was posted recently on TAM:
> 
> http://themindunleashed.org/2013/10/30-traits-of-empath.html<br />
> 
> _"Loving an addict is really hard. When I looked at the addicts I love, it was always tempting to follow the tough love advice doled out by reality shows like Intervention — tell the addict to shape up, or cut them off. Their message is that an addict who won’t stop should be shunned. It’s the logic of the drug war, imported into our private lives.
> 
> But in fact, I learned, that will only deepen their addiction — and you may lose them altogether. I came home determined to tie the addicts in my life closer to me than ever — to let them know I love them unconditionally, whether they stop, or whether they can’t.
> 
> When I returned from my long journey, I looked at my ex-boyfriend, in withdrawal, trembling on my spare bed, and I thought about him differently. For a century now, we have been singing war songs about addicts. It occurred to me as I wiped his brow, we should have been singing love songs to them all along."_


That's a good way to get everything you ever had stolen from you and live a miserable life in limbo.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farsidejunky

Frequently, when someone is drowning, those who dive in and attempt to rescue them are drowned themselves.

Addiction is very much like this.


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## karole

You cannot love an addict out of an addiction.


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## Thundarr

Merry Christmas Grid. You have a lot to be thankful for. For starters, you and your babies are healthy in 2015.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Good lord, I do so love terrible cherry picked articles. Intervention and tough love shows are almost always A LAST RESORT. I do enjoy the article writer conveniently leaves this part out of her one sided article. No mention of the love, kindness, money, time, lawyers, caring, insurance and self sacrifice spent before someone FINALLY lets the person fail.


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## Spotthedeaddog

ButtPunch said:


> That's a good way to get everything you ever had stolen from you and live a miserable life in limbo.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The only person who can rescue an addict is themselves.

And we can only grasp the hand when they want to reach up.

Otherwise in reaching down "giving "love"" just enables them, gives them others to blame, the ability to keep lying there.

For support... I have plenty of trying people who have worked hard and kept themselves sensible that can use my help, no reason to throw it away on someone self-destructive or purely destructive to others (as was remarked ... more people steal playstations & cigarettes than bread and veg...)


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## Evinrude58

Addicts are notorious for doing all kinds if things to ruin their own lives, and in the process don't give a flying poot about other lives they ruin in their wake. 

Pretty good feel good stuff on addicts. Fact is, you stay near a black cloud all the time, you are gonna get rained on. 
He's tired of getting rained on, and he's given a lot of time for the weather to change. Once the love is gone, it's not coming back. He can pay the bills and wait forever....he'll still be getting wet while she eats her cake and laughs at what a chump he is behind his back.

Apparently, he's no chump. I applaud him for being a man.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TeddieG

"I think he was submissive in that he kept looking to her to fix things." No. He wasn't looking to her to "fix" things. He was stepping back and detaching and letting HER decide to take the responsibility to choose what SHE wanted, without his influence or interference or attempts to control or even, at the risk of people calling him codependent, to put his heart and body in the way of the very heavy consequences she would reap in the future. He WAS very sacrificially prepared to do whatever it took to try to help her realize the fallout of her choices. And when she continued to be unresponsive in any significant and meaningful way, he chose to step aside and accept (acceptance is a small, quiet room) that there was nothing to be done but to turn her loose to her own desires and choices and pursuits. Having a healthy, articulated, defined sense of self as a person means extending that same courtesy to your partner, whatever that may mean and whatever the consequences turn out to be. 

To follow up on @farsidejunky and his post, the rule is, when rescuing a drowning person is, you throw them a life preserver or the handle of a pole or a canoe paddle, which they may not choose to grasp, but you never go in after them until they have exhausted themselves with the flailing and they seem to sink to the bottom; until that happens, and you can pull them out inert and beyond the ability to flail any longer, they will only drag you down with them.


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## farsidejunky

I see Ms. GP is lurking and liking posts. 

I would think that if anyone can give insight into addiction, it would be her.

What say you, @Ms. GP ?


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## phillybeffandswiss

So, I decided to look around because I felt this writer was playing fast and loose with her conclusions.


What Vietnam Taught Us About Breaking Bad Habits : Shots - Health News : NPR

Vietnam, heroin and the lesson of disrupting addiction - CNN.com

Breaking Bad Habits: How Vietnam War Veterans Broke Their Heroin Addictions

Kind of funny how all three articles say *CHANGING THE ENVIRONMENT *helped drop the addiction rate with such high success. Flies in the face of the suggestion that hand holding, being kind, letting her continue her AP, supporting them with love and keeping the home life EXACTLY THE SAME will eventually stop her from cheating.


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## Lilac23

jld said:


> I think he was submissive in that he kept looking to her to fix things. A dominant would shelve his pride, figure out what her needs were, and get meeting them. His actions would persuade her to come back to the marriage.
> 
> He got angry with her several times. The exposure he did did not work to make her reconcile. The threats he made just pushed her further towards divorce.
> 
> Maybe it is just over. I guess only grid and his wife know for sure.
> 
> Grid, it is not too late to do a serious Plan A and then Plan B, if needed. You could go to her tonight and have a heart to heart talk.


And what would a dominant do? Calmly let her f&ck the boy because she 'needs' to? Lie to people to hide her secret? You shouldn't have to persuade anyone to be faithful to you, dominant or not.


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## TeddieG

Lilac23 said:


> And what would a dominant do? Calmly let her f&ck the boy because she 'needs' to? Lie to people to hide her secret? You shouldn't have to persuade anyone to be faithful to you, dominant or not.


THIS. :iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

You pick someone to be your life partner because you assume they will be, no, more than that, you have been convinced by them that they have CHOSEN to be, and expressed in various ways their intent to be committed to their promise to be faithful to you. 

Once they break that promise, and have shattered your assumptions, then any attempt to try to persuade them to honor the promise or commitment they made is really counterproductive, ESPECIALLY if they cheated on you. The onus is on them. End of.


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## Lilac23

jld said:


> I think Mrs. Grid is an addict. I don't think calling an addict a "piece of sh* t selfish cheater" is helpful. My opinion, I guess.


Bwahahaha, jld, do you have any mental health experience at all? Ever been to an AA, NA, or Alanon meeting? What do you think clinicians advise in cases of addicts, alcoholics, chemical dependency, etc.? 

I am uninformed on sexual addiction but quite versed in other addictions and the basic tenets of most are the same. The addict needs to desire to quit the behavior and you do not support it, financially, emotionally, etc. You cannot fix or control the other person, the addict must do it themselves.

I agree that calling her a piece of sh!t selfish cheater is perhaps not the most helpful but addicts are extremely selfish individuals while they are in the throes of their addiction. If Grid supported it, he would simply be prolonging the inevitable (i.e. her ending the addiction on her own). She needs to see the consequences of her behavior before it has an affect on her. Maybe someday, far down Sunnybrook Lane, they can get back together but it's very unfair to Grid to ask him to wait around for that. 

It's not only unfair, it is harmful. He has decided what he wants to do, by chiming in and trying to guilt him into staying, you are messing with his psyche. I am a big supporter of keeping the family together but I do believe adultery is a justifiable reason for divorce, ESPECIALLY, when the spouse is showing no remorse. 

I also don't see this as a threadjack because you are constantly reiterating the same tired advice, he has told you numerous he's not taking it. Perhaps you should respect his decision and let this fishy swim on to his future? SMH.


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## Lilac23

jld said:


> I am so sorry, grid. I don't think the restoration of your family will happen without big changes on at least one of your parts. You know I don't think you ever really followed my advice. I think you only did what you felt like doing, same as your wife.


Passive aggressive much?


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## Lilac23

gridcom said:


> My mother just asked me the same thing. I have no idea.
> 
> I think her attitude is "ok, I've done what I've done and now everybody is ok with it, right? Right. Now, let's just all be friends and don't make me feel bad about what I've done."
> 
> I'm at my mothers now and she just can't get over how friendly my wife was yesterday
> 
> Now, for some reason my wife thinks we, as a family, are going to my sisters tomorrow. I just don't get it, I really don't. The woman is just twisted in her head.
> 
> As far as me doing 180's, while following that template may have benefitted me, I still don't believe in being anybody but the real me, for better or worse. I guess you could say I am doing the 180 though, except I'm not pretending to be happy. I don't pretend. I'm not an actor. I'm not pleading or begging or following her around the house or talking about the future, but as far as acting like I'm over it, it's just not me to play games.


Have you spelled it out to her?


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## TeddieG

Lilac23 said:


> Passive aggressive much?


Could not like, LOVE, this more.


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## Chuck71

Lilac23 said:


> Passive aggressive much?


Or the last illusion of a delusional person.

I hope Grid never nukes this thread. This has A-1 advice on what a BS *should* do

and snippets from jld on what NOT to do.

Someone commented about 100 pages back, if jld was in fact, Mrs. Grid

I saw it as humorous when I read it.... now I pontificate

When Grid's journey is through.... it will be referred to on the same level as ReGroup's..... 

Grid.... when you reach full circle... you will be a TAM immortal


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## Lilac23

Compassion is different from weakness, I feel she is pushing weakness. Compassion has a place but not when it comes to allowing yourself to be treated like sh!t. I totally agree men should be leaders of the family but the problem is Mrs Grid doesn't want a leader, she wants a doormat.


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## farsidejunky

FTR, JLD is not Mrs. Grid.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## EleGirl

jld said:


> This article on addiction was posted recently on TAM:
> 
> http://themindunleashed.org/2013/10/30-traits-of-empath.html<br />
> 
> _"Loving an addict is really hard. When I looked at the addicts I love, it was always tempting to follow the tough love advice doled out by reality shows like Intervention — tell the addict to shape up, or cut them off. Their message is that an addict who won’t stop should be shunned. It’s the logic of the drug war, imported into our private lives.
> 
> But in fact, I learned, that will only deepen their addiction — and you may lose them altogether. I came home determined to tie the addicts in my life closer to me than ever — to let them know I love them unconditionally, whether they stop, or whether they can’t.
> 
> When I returned from my long journey, I looked at my ex-boyfriend, in withdrawal, trembling on my spare bed, and I thought about him differently. For a century now, we have been singing war songs about addicts. It occurred to me as I wiped his brow, we should have been singing love songs to them all along."_


Tough love is not about saving the addict. It's about protecting yourself.

Anyone who has had an addict in their life, knows that at some point the only way to save themself is to cut the addict out of their lives.

Addicts don't only steal all your good stuff. They take away the security of your home with the filth they bring around. They disrupt the peace of your home with their actions and antics. They destroy your peace of mine by playing games, lying, and taking advantage of everyone's desire to love them and help them.

If the woman who wrote that article wants to try to love someone out of addiction, that's her business. The bottom line is that the addict has to want to quit and has to do the work to quit on their own. Until the addict is ready to do that, she can love them all she wants, but as soon as the addict needs another fix he will stab her in the back.. sometimes literally.

The article is right that the opposite of addiction is human connection. And a change of environment is necessary.

The problem is that the addict has to want the human connection and the change in their environment. Until they are ready to do that, they will not stop the addictive behavior.

The vets coming home from Vietnam had a strong change of environment forced on them. That broke their addiction.

When a guy (or gal) does a month or two rehab in jail, and comes out all set on never going back to drugs... they usually fail. They are usually right back with their drugged up friends in hours. Why? Because the part of town where the drug addicts tend to hand out is a lot easier to get to then it was for our returning vets to get back to their drug connections in Viet Nam.

Until a person has experienced what an addict is like, it's hard to comprehend why tough love is necessary.

.


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## EleGirl

gridcom said:


> As far as me doing 180's, while following that template may have benefitted me, I still don't believe in being anybody but the real me, for better or worse. I guess you could say I am doing the 180 though, except I'm not pretending to be happy. I don't pretend. I'm not an actor. I'm not pleading or begging or following her around the house or talking about the future, but as far as acting like I'm over it, it's just not me to play games.


If a person does the 180 correctly, it’s not a game. It’s not play acting. Its purpose is to refocus them from their hurt and vulnerability so that they can start to move on.


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## jld

EleGirl said:


> Tough love is not about saving the addict. It's about protecting yourself.
> 
> Anyone who has had an addict in their life, knows that at some point the only way to save themself is to cut the addict out of their lives.
> 
> Addicts don't only steal all your good stuff. They take away the security of your home with the filth they bring around. They disrupt the peace of your home with their actions and antics. They destroy your peace of mine by playing games, lying, and taking advantage of everyone's desire to love them and help them.
> 
> If the woman who wrote that article wants to try to love someone out of addiction, that's her business. The bottom line is that the addict has to want to quit and has to do the work to quit on their own. Until the addict is ready to do that, she can love them all she wants, but as soon as the addict needs another fix he will stab her in the back.. sometimes literally.
> 
> The article is right that the opposite of addiction is human connection. And a change of environment is necessary.
> 
> The problem is that the addict has to want the human connection and the change in their environment. Until they are ready to do that, they will not stop the addictive behavior.
> 
> The vets coming home from Vietnam had a strong change of environment forced on them. That broke their addiction.
> 
> When a guy (or gal) does a month or two rehab in jail, and comes out all set on never going back to drugs... they usually fail. They are usually right back with their drugged up friends in hours. Why? Because the part of town where the drug addicts tend to hand out is a lot easier to get to then it was for our returning vets to get back to their drug connections in Viet Nam.
> 
> Until a person has experienced what an addict is like, it's hard to comprehend why tough love is necessary.
> 
> .


Ele, I think what Johann Hari is saying is that love, and hope based on both individual and societal support, is what makes addicts change. Not everyone has the strength of will to generate that on their own. 

Johann Hari is a man, and has a book out on addiction that fleshes out the points he made in that article. One Amazon reviewer called it the best book of 2015. I think I am going to read it.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1620408902?vs=1
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

Lilac23 said:


> And *what would a dominant do?* Calmly let her f&ck the boy because she 'needs' to? Lie to people to hide her secret? You shouldn't have to persuade anyone to be faithful to you, dominant or not.


This, followed to the letter, is a good option:

What to Do with an Unfaithful Wife Letter #1

Note that it makes no demands about No Contact during Plan A. It is all about meeting her emotional needs, rebuilding the foundation of her trust, before any "tough love," or 180, is applied.

I think Mrs. Grid was happy the last few days because, as I believe life said, she did not feel controlled or pressured. Instead she felt like she had some genuine free choice in what she was doing, in a generally supportive and nurturing (holiday) atmosphere. She felt respected.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_
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_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gridcom

Sorry, but no. My wife is living in a fantasy land. On XMas Eve, I went through the Amazon account to see if there was anything that wasn't delivered to us yet. She has an Amazon Prime and that's where we did most of the shopping. I noticed a book that she bought and I really didnt pay much attention to it, but subconsciously throughout yesterday I kept thinking that I should look again.

It was this book.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0285637215?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s01

Love Letters In The Sand: The Love Poems of Khalil Gibran.

I asked her late last night who that book was for. She lied at first but quickly admitted that she bought the book for her AP for XMas

Half of me, honestly, doesn't give a crap. The other half of me wonders how I am going to live with this woman in this tiny house through this divorce. She honestly make me sick. The guy works at Starbucks. And she is getting him love poetry books.

Tell me I shouldn't care. Whatever.


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## jld

It's the addiction, grid.

Grid, can you relate to her addiction at all?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ThreeStrikes

Not sure why the last few pages have been all about TS and her so-called addiction. She hasn't posted here. Pretty pointless to try to solve her problems.


If she's being friendly and civil? Great! That sure is better than her being a shrew during this process.

Grid, whats coming up in the immediate future? Any mediation dates? Has anything been filed with the courts?


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## Keepin-my-head-up

He spelled it out.

He doesn't want to save the marriage anymore.

He wants this to be over and move on.

Maybe it wasn't the path some people wanted but it is the path he has chosen.


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## happy as a clam

ThreeStrikes said:


> *Not sure why the last few pages have been all about TS and her so-called addiction.* She hasn't posted here. Pretty pointless to try to solve her problems.


Because a certain poster has now made it all about TS and her addictions. Here we go again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## phillybeffandswiss

> If Grid supported it, he would simply be prolonging the inevitable (i.e. her ending the addiction on her own). She needs to see the consequences of her behavior before it has an affect on her. Maybe someday, far down Sunnybrook Lane, they can get back together but it's very unfair to Grid to ask him to wait around for that.


There is no "if," he did support her so called addiction. He did almost EVERYTHING JLD and others suggested. He went to individual counseling for his anger, tried not to talk about the affair, went to marriage counseling, worked on better communication, continued having sex, the bills continued to be paid and the family life remained the same for her. He did everything to make her comfortable, while being miserable, just like people who have dealt with drug addicts. Finally, he went to a marriage retreat KNOWING she was still talking and working with the guy.

Again he did EVERYTHING the guilt ridden humanist article talks about, almost everything jld suggested and it still blew up in his face. Why? As those other articles state, everything remained the same while she was cheating, the only change was he now knew about the affair and it was out in the open.


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## Ms. GP

Thanks @farsidejunky for calling me out bro!! Lol 

GP and I were watching Netflix, and I fell asleep. We love that show, "Dexter." 

I do have a couple of thoughts about what's going on. I think Mrs. Grid is being nice out of guilt. She's being ironically what I like to call, "addict nice." For the record, you don't have to be an addict to be addict nice. Addict nice is when a person really steps on someone's toes and instead of humbling themselves and apologizing (or God forbid doing any action to fix the situation). They act superficially overly nice to "fix" the situation in their own minds. For the record, I have been addict nice and I deal with it a lot at my work in a pharmacy. They call me the,"meth whisperer " at work. They have no idea I'm in recovery!! Lol

Secondly, I think everyone knows I'm in the "let them go camp". Mostly because I have been let go (which I hold no animosity over) and I have had to let go. Since you are a man of faith, I will share some things I do to," let go, and let God." I imagine myself putting them in an imaginary God box. I pray, "here God, I can't, but I know you can. I pray your will be done in this person's life." I then do my best to trust that God has it under control, so I don't have to waste my mental energy obsessing over the person and every time I catch myself thinking about them, I try to redirect my thoughts to something else and stay busy. I hope this helps Grid. Remember, you're situation is temporary. Good or bad, they all are.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pluto2

Grid,
You aren't a factor in TS's A anymore. Her eyes and her heart are on him, so she can be nice to you. This is cruel and I'm sorry, but I honestly think its because you don't matter to her anymore. Its like some people who are nicer to acquaintances than their own family.

It is not a sign she wants to reconcile, its a sign she is further out the door. She has Plan B'd you. Watch your money.


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## phillybeffandswiss

ThreeStrikes said:


> Not sure why the last few pages have been all about TS and her so-called addiction.


Last time, many of us ignored and moved on with little to no refutation of the articles posted. He spent 5 months in limbo hell believing he could fix things. This time, I am going to refute every article like this when it is posted..


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## jld

Grid hardly did anything I suggested, and not the most important thing: shelving his pride.

Did he ask her to pray with him at night? Did he pray for her?

Did he ask her forgiveness every time he spoke in anger?

Did he seek out older, mature men at his church for counsel?

Did he read Letter #1 and follow it?

Did he take ultimate responsibility for this family, as is fitting for a Christian husband and father?

With forbearance this marriage might be saved. Without humility and patience on at least one side, and quite frankly, a Christlike example, it has no hope.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_
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## happy as a clam

jld said:


> Grid hardly did anything I suggested...


I would beg to differ on this point. Grid went down a lot of needless rabbit trails.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

Then I guess we see it differently.

Truly humbling himself and committing to his family might have him in a different place now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TeddieG

Ms. GP said:


> Thanks @farsidejunky for calling me out bro!! Lol
> 
> GP and I were watching Netflix, and I fell asleep. We love that show, "Dexter."
> 
> I do have a couple of thoughts about what's going on. I think Mrs. Grid is being nice out of guilt. She's being ironically what I like to call, "addict nice." For the record, you don't have to be an addict to be addict nice. Addict nice is when a person really steps on someone's toes and instead of humbling themselves and apologizing (or God forbid doing any action to fix the situation). They act superficially overly nice to "fix" the situation in their own minds. For the record, I have been addict nice and I deal with it a lot at my work in a pharmacy. They call me the,"meth whisperer " at work. They have no idea I'm in recovery!! Lol
> 
> Secondly, I think everyone knows I'm in the "let them go camp". Mostly because I have been let go (which I hold no animosity over) and I have had to let go. Since you are a man of faith, I will share some things I do to," let go, and let God." I imagine myself putting them in an imaginary God box. I pray, "here God, I can't, but I know you can. I pray your will be done in this person's life." I then do my best to trust that God has it under control, so I don't have to waste my mental energy obsessing over the person and every time I catch myself thinking about them, I try to redirect my thoughts to something else and stay busy. I hope this helps Grid. Remember, you're situation is temporary. Good or bad, they all are.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Grid, maybe the reason I feel so strongly about some things is because I thought if I stayed calm and cool my h's affair would blow up and end. When he confessed to me about his infidelity, it seemed to me he was ending it, but in fact, I now know, and have learned from TAM, that he was addicted to the sex, which was heightened by the secrecy and impropriety of it, and that when he told me about the OW, I was being trickle-truthed. He wanted me to believe it was over with her while he was continuing to see her. Other times he would say we were through and finished but he never acted on it. And one time I said, so, where are we, is this marriage over, are you going to file for divorce? He replied, well, if I decide I want to divorce I'll file; until then, no. It was if I had NO say in the matter and he could just sit back and play both sides of the game and decide which one he wanted, and his decision could be indefinitely put off until the future. 

I thought I was helping along our chances of reconciliation. But like Mrs. GP, I came to realize that whatever that force is out there that some people call God, I needed to relinquish h to that. God or whatever didn't need me to do it for him/her/it, and I was sure if the universe or God or whatever wanted my help, it would be very clear that I was not only to help but what I was supposed to do. 

Over the course of the past 7 years, as my h has tried to break his addiction to the OW, I have watched him mourn and grieve her. There is NOTHING harder on a human soul and heart than watching your partner long for and desire and grieve someone else. 

You gave it all your all, you gave it your best, you fought the good fight.


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## jld

I asked you to be the leader, grid. I asked you to commit to being the light of Christ to your wife.

I knew she could not lead. The only hope was to change yourself, to become a more inspirational figure to her by improving your character. And in doing so, you could earn her trust. That could change her heart towards you.

That was the path I saw to the restoration of your marriage. I was always counting on you, grid, not her. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Nucking Futs

jld said:


> I asked you to be the leader, grid. I asked you to commit to being the light of Christ to your wife.
> 
> I knew she could not lead. The only hope was to change yourself, to become a more inspirational figure to her by improving your character. And in doing so, you could earn her trust. That could change her heart towards you.
> 
> That was the path I saw to the restoration of your marriage. I was always counting on you, grid, not her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Is there any chance you might have a little mercy on Grid and leave him alone? Can you try to empathize a little less with Grids wife and a little more with Grid? Can you maybe try to understand that this marriage is not something to be saved at any cost, that Grids mental health and well being is important too?


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> I asked you to be the leader, grid. I asked you to commit to being the light of Christ to your wife.
> 
> I knew she could not lead. The only hope was to change yourself, to become a more inspirational figure to her by improving your character. And in doing so, you could earn her trust. That could change her heart towards you.
> 
> That was the path I saw to the restoration of your marriage. I was always counting on you, grid, not her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You asked him to become a chump. 

He followed your advice until his self esteem couldn't take it anymore.

It was an epic failure as we warned.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> You asked him to become a chump.
> 
> He followed your advice until his self esteem couldn't take it anymore.
> 
> It was an epic failure as we warned.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He followed his own heart. He did not follow my advice.

I do not see any place for pridefulness in marriage. Humility is essential.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happy as a clam

Nucking Futs said:


> Is there any chance you might have a little mercy on Grid and leave him alone? Can you try to empathize a little less with Grids wife and a little more with Grid? Can you maybe try to understand that this marriage is not something to be saved at any cost, that Grids mental health and well being is important too?


:iagree:

One who possesses true empathy knows when it's time to bow out gracefully.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Nucking Futs said:


> Is there any chance you might have a little mercy on Grid and leave him alone? Can you try to empathize a little less with Grids wife and a little more with Grid? Can you maybe try to understand that this marriage is not something to be saved at any cost, that Grids mental health and well being is important too?


His health and well being, as well as that of his wife and daughters, would benefit greatly from restoration of his marriage. I think following letter #1 could do it.

Grid will tell me if he does not want me to post to him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ButtPunch

happy as a clam said:


> :iagree:
> 
> One who possesses true empathy knows when it's time to bow out gracefully.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It is her pride coming out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> His health and well being, as well as that of his wife and daughters, would benefit greatly from restoration of his marriage. I think following letter #1 could do it.
> 
> Grid will tell me if he does not want me to post to him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Rubbish.....and you know this how?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

It's funny how you LOVE to take credit when something sort of works, but when your suggestions fail the person didn't follow your advice at all or correctly. When he was listening to you, the encouragement was ridiculous. When he stopped listening and made contrary decisions the passive aggressive browbeating insults began.
Disgusting.


----------



## gridcom

ButtPunch said:


> You asked him to become a chump.
> 
> He followed your advice until his self esteem couldn't take it anymore.
> 
> It was an epic failure as we warned.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Again, JLD, I appreciate that you and I have one big thing in common. We try and see the good in people and are forever hoping for the happy ending. It's something that I appreciate about myself and appreciate about you

That said, like I said yesterday... Where is the line? Was I Jesus like in my reaction to this whole ordeal? Nope. Am I proud at how I handled the situation, knowing I am/was the best me I could be? Yes, absolutely.

If my wife had any strength, she would have quit that job and worked on her marriage right out of the gate. At LEAST for the kids, to see if what she was feeling about me was her real feelings, and not feelings corrupted by another man. 

Being here and being in this relationship for 20 years, I am of the opinion that if she had the strength to leave that job and turn her back on that man, we would have been able to fix this. I was more than willing to forgive and I was more than willing to put in the work to address her issue with me. I say "issue" because, according to her, it was one singular issue. 

I have, frankly, heard enough about how I wasn't "Christ-like" and should have turned the other cheek and should have held her and been a strong man while her mind was completely focused on the kid that works at Starbucks. 

I had ONE boundary and she broke it. She agreed to it and she broke it. While she agreed to it, an army of people here were yelling at me that as long as she still worked with the guy, his presence still in her orbit to the tiniest degree, I was doomed.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/sticky-bonds/201004/lets-talk-again-month-now
Save Your Marriage Central: Falling In Love With An Affair Partner - Marriage AdvocatesMarriage Advocates
Shouldn't He Cut Off Contact With His Affair Partner? - GoAskSuzie.com
How Do I Get My Spouse to Break All Ties With Their Affair Partner?
How to Mend a Marriage After an Affair (with Pictures) - wikiHow
Reconciling after an affair- three mistakes the cheater makes - Kim Leatherdale CoachingKim Leatherdale Coaching
If You Want To Save Your Marriage After An Affair, Read This
SurvivingInfidelity.com - Frequently Asked Questions for the Betrayed Spouse
FIVE WARNING FLAGS FOLLOWING AN AFFAIR - Straight Talk 4 Women
The Purpose of No Contact | AFFAIRCARE
Contact with the Affair Partner - AFFAIR HEALING
http://www.truthaboutdeception.com/...had-an-affair-and-she-still-talks-to-him.html
How to Close the Door After an Affair | World of Psychology

I actually noticed her act different towards me on the nights and days after she worked with him. Like she would inch towards the light, then work with him for one day, and slip right back to thinking I was just getting in her way.

Again, where is the line? When is enough enough? Like I said, do I find them in bed together and drive her home telling her I am going to be strong for her and it's all going to be OK? No, thats retarded.

I am pissed today because she spent what is essentially mostly my money on her boyfriends XMas gift. As long as we are married, and the divorce order says the money has to stay relatively status quo, that is marital money. And since I make 8X her, that means I paid for that book. So, eff her, eff him, and eff the love poem book.

I am completely and totally ready and willing to get this over with, but I am not going to be disrespected in the process. Many of you suggest I detach and I am detaching. I certainly am not pleading with her to fix the marriage. But, at the same time, under no circumstances am I going to allow her to sh*t on me while we both live here. She want's to go be a loser POS evil betrayer, she can pack her stuff and move on down the road. I am focusing on my kids and myself, in that order.


----------



## just got it 55

Ms. GP said:


> Thanks @farsidejunky for calling me out bro!! Lol
> 
> GP and I were watching Netflix, and I fell asleep. We love that show, "Dexter."
> 
> I do have a couple of thoughts about what's going on. I think Mrs. Grid is being nice out of guilt. She's being ironically what I like to call, "addict nice." For the record, you don't have to be an addict to be addict nice. Addict nice is when a person really steps on someone's toes and instead of humbling themselves and apologizing (or God forbid doing any action to fix the situation). They act superficially overly nice to "fix" the situation in their own minds. For the record, I have been addict nice and I deal with it a lot at my work in a pharmacy. They call me the,"meth whisperer " at work. They have no idea I'm in recovery!! Lol
> 
> Secondly, I think everyone knows I'm in the "let them go camp". Mostly because I have been let go (which I hold no animosity over) and I have had to let go. Since you are a man of faith, I will share some things I do to," let go, and let God." I imagine myself putting them in an imaginary God box. I pray, "here God, I can't, but I know you can. I pray your will be done in this person's life." I then do my best to trust that God has it under control, so I don't have to waste my mental energy obsessing over the person and every time I catch myself thinking about them, I try to redirect my thoughts to something else and stay busy. I hope this helps Grid. Remember, you're situation is temporary. Good or bad, they all are.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There we all have it The Ultimate Authority on the subject by living experience of addiction and infidelity.

You just can't get that from cheery picking articles to support your agenda.

Thanks Mrs GP for your courage .

55


----------



## jld

Reading my posts does not mean compliance. He followed his own plan.

I think he still loves her. I think that dream with the devil shows that. 

I am still holding out hope that his wife will come to him, repentant. That is a long shot at this point, though.

There is just no place for pridefulness in marriage. Humility is essential.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## phillybeffandswiss

I constantly see the good in people and give them the benefit of the doubt. Seeing the good in people when they have told you they did wrong and continue to do wrong is denial.


----------



## just got it 55

jld said:


> his health and well being, as well as that of his wife and daughters, would benefit greatly from restoration of his marriage. I think following letter #1 could do it.
> 
> Grid will tell me if he does not want me to post to him.
> _posted via mobile device_


it takes two

55


----------



## gridcom

jld said:


> Reading my posts does not mean compliance. He followed his own plan.
> 
> I think he still loves her. I think that dream with the devil shows that.
> 
> I am still holding out hope that his wife will come to him, repentant. That is a long shot at this point, though.
> 
> There is just no place for pridefulness in marriage. Humility is essential.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Of course, I still love her. C'mon, now. But, enough is enough. She is completely out of line and disrespectful to me, our kids, and both our families.

I am NOT trying to fix this marriage. My heart and mind are in concert now, not opposed. I am Plan B and I deserve better. I am going to rise up like a Phoenix. The end of this thread will most definitely demonstrate that.


----------



## TeddieG

gridcom said:


> *If my wife had any strength, she would have quit that job and worked on her marriage right out of the gate. At LEAST for the kids, to see if what she was feeling about me was her real feelings, and not feelings corrupted by another man.
> 
> Being here and being in this relationship for 20 years, I am of the opinion that if she had the strength to leave that job and turn her back on that man, we would have been able to fix this. I was more than willing to forgive and I was more than willing to put in the work to address her issue with me. I say "issue" because, according to her, it was one singular issue. *
> 
> 
> *I had ONE boundary and she broke it. She agreed to it and she broke it. While she agreed to it, an army of people here were yelling at me that as long as she still worked with the guy, his presence still in her orbit to the tiniest degree, I was doomed.*
> 
> 
> I actually noticed her act different towards me on the nights and days after she worked with him. *Like she would inch towards the light, then work with him for one day, and slip right back to thinking I was just getting in her way.*


All.of.this. I could say the exact same thing. My h did not have the STRENGTH; he would inch toward the light time after time after time after time over the course of 7 years, and then he would go flying up the road to her when he couldn't take it anymore. As one very nice Christian lady pointed out, he's TRYING. But he could never make the break with OW stick. 

These are the experiences, jld, with all due respect, that you don't have. You don't have the empirical evidence of what a cheating spouse looks like and acts like and you don't have the empirical evidence of how that makes you feel. And you don't have the empirical evidence/experience of finding yourself in this position and desperately searching for the right way to handle the situation, especially when there are kids involved, or a spouse with mental and/or physical health issues. 

Grid, you sound SO much better now that you did when you came here. Just so you know, I'm not sure the outcome would have been different if you had gone a hard 180 right away and filed and not tried to keep an even keel while things played out. Of course you needed to keep the equilibrium for your daughters, but I really think that TS/Mrs. Grid is SO lost in the affair fog, and the book she ordered shows how far her head is in some romantic fantasy . . . doesn't mean you two might not reconnect at some point, but that risk/gamble/hope is far better than the status quo, as you know. 

You're doing great, Grid. Hang in.


----------



## TeddieG

phillybeffandswiss said:


> I constantly see the good in people and give them the benefit of the doubt. Seeing the good in people when they have told you they did wrong and continue to do wrong is denial.


But even good people can do things that hurt us, even inadvertantly, and that is why boundaries are so important. Many people are good; no person is perfect.


----------



## jld

_"A Letter From My WS

GP,
I am writing you this letter to try and tell you how I feel. I know I am not the best at expressing myself, so I am hoping I can better express myself in a letter. First of all, I want to tell you how truly sorry I am for hurting you. I know right now these are just empty words, but I hope with time I can show you through my actions how remorseful I am. 

My addiction has caused me to act in ways that go completely against all of my morals and values. I have lied, cheated, and stole. I am by no means making any excuses for my actions. I am just trying to let you in to my sick mind. I have been sick for a long time, and felt I completely lost my way for a long time. 

I want to make amends to you and our children. The word amend means to change and I am working very hard to do just that. I can feel some changes within start to take place and I hope at the end of this journey I can be a person that you, myself, and the children can be proud of.

Now that I am in a safe place, I can finally see just how destructive the path I was on. I was doing anything to not feel what I was feeling. I am working hard every day to dig deep into my issues that led to my addiction. I have an excellent counselor who is holding my feet to the fire and forcing me to look at things that are very uncomfortable for me. I hate it at the moment, but I know it is a catalyst for change. That's what I want more than anything is to change. 

I have truly loved talking with you everyday and reconnecting with you. I miss that feeling terribly. Right now, I know what I want to happen after this, but I'm trying desperately not to manipulate or control you. I am also trying not to make any major decisions while my brain is still healing. I also know 50% of that decision depends on you and what you want.

*I have a lot of issues to work through, but we also have a lot of issues to work on together. Just like you feel I don't open up to you, I feel the same about you. I need some verbal affirmations from you too. There were a lot of times I felt I was walking on egg shells around you. I never felt I measured up to your high expectations. I felt our marriage became a type of business agreement. I kept having horrible visions of sending D3 off to collegeand us shaking hands and saying, "Well it was a pleasure doing business with you. See you around." That killed me inside.

I asked you repeatedly to get a babysitter so we could go out and your response was always I don't want to pay the money for someone else to watch our kids. That's our job. That really made me shut down and feel unimportant. When I approached you about counseling you said "Why? I never did anything wrong." I felt so defeated after that. Like why should I even try. I'm not telling you these things to hurt your feelings or deflect attention from my actions to yours. I'm telling you these because I want things to change.*

I want our relationship to be closer and stronger than it ever has been. Whatever form that relationship decides to take, I know if we both work hard we will be so much happier and connected. I think we owe this to ourselves and our children to leave no stone unturned. I'm willing. Are you?

Love Mrs. GP"_
@Ms. GP

LongWalk asked me to read your husband's thread. I saw this post there. 

I was touched by your vulnerability to your husband. You let him see how he disappointed you, even though he could have left you alone in rehab after reading that. That was courageous of you. 

I would love to see mrs. grid open her heart like that. I am afraid she has just shut grid out at this point. Maybe someday.

I hope you don't mind my asking, but did the issues in bold get resolved? How?


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Some things I've picked up on from this thread:

1. Its wicked hard to give up on the life you thought you were going to live, especially when you're a nice guy/KISA. 

2. Nice advice is not the same as good advice.

3. Insufferable know-it-alls can carry the same wrecking ball capacity as cheaters and addicts.

4. Eliminating those wrecking balls from one's life is the only way to live a life of contentment and peace. (Yes, Mavash, I understand now)

5. Most of the crew here at TAM know what the hell they are talking about. Best therapy ever.


----------



## Evinrude58

Lilac23 said:


> And what would a dominant do? Calmly let her f&ck the boy because she 'needs' to? Lie to people to hide her secret? You shouldn't have to persuade anyone to be faithful to you, dominant or not.





gridcom said:


> Of course, I still love her. C'mon, now. But, enough is enough. She is completely out of line and disrespectful to me, our kids, and both our families.
> 
> I am NOT trying to fix this marriage. My heart and mind are in concert now, not opposed. I am Plan B and I deserve better. I am going to rise up like a Phoenix. The end of this thread will most definitely demonstrate that.


YOU did try to fix the marriage. YOU did show great humility, love, compassion, and a heaping helping of patience with your wife. YOU alone CANNOT fix your marriage, which some people can't understand. Her mind is devoid of feelings for you. I suspect eventually, probably a couple of years down the road, she will see the truth about what she has done and want you back. I think you see now that a person that has done shat she has done and continues to do-- isn't the person you want to grow old with. Everyone on the planet is not a selfish discontent. You will be a new man soon, grid. Hang in there. Holidays are hard.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TeddieG

Evinrude58 said:


> YOU did try to fix the marriage. YOU did show great humility, love, compassion, and a heaping helping of patience with your wife. YOU alone CANNOT fix your marriage, which some people can't understand. Her mind is devoid of feelings for you. I suspect eventually, probably a couple of years down the road, she will see the truth about what she has done and want you back. I think you see now that a person that has done shat she has done and continues to do-- isn't the person you want to grow old with. Everyone on the planet is not a selfish discontent. You will be a new man soon, grid. Hang in there. Holidays are hard.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This, this, this!!! :iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## jld

gridcom said:


> Of course, I still love her. C'mon, now. But, enough is enough. *She is completely out of line and disrespectful to me*, our kids, and both our families.


I know. And that is so sad. 

A woman has to be able to respect her husband. She has to be able to admire and look up to him. My husband's example to me, and my resultant respect for, and trust in, him, is the foundation of our marriage. 

It started with him, grid, not with me. I simply responded to him.



> I am NOT trying to fix this marriage. My heart and mind are in concert now, not opposed. I am Plan B and I deserve better. I am going to rise up like a Phoenix. The end of this thread will most definitely demonstrate that.


I am sure you can move on. I had just hoped for something different.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

TeddieG said:


> But even good people can do things that hurt us, even inadvertantly, and that is why boundaries are so important. Many people are good; no person is perfect.


There is no "but" I addressed this in my post.
It is called giving someone the benefit of the doubt, which I said in my post. Someone who continues to do wrong, after telling you they did wrong, but you keep seeing the good in them is denial.


----------



## TeddieG

phillybeffandswiss said:


> There is no "but" I addressed this in my post.
> It is called giving someone the benefit of the doubt, which I said in my post. Someone who continues to do wrong, after telling you they did wrong, but you keep seeing the good in them is denial.


 @phillybeffandswiss, I don't think I'm disagreeing with you, didn't intend to anyway. I'm talking about BEFORE someone does something to us to hurt us. I am completely in agreement with you that after the wrong is done and it continues, but to overlook it due to denial is a very real possibility. Actually I think I am talking more about the tendency to trust easily and see the good in people; part of growing up and experience to also be aware that good people CAN hurt us, but a good person will put it right.


----------



## Nucking Futs

jld said:


> I know. And that is so sad.
> 
> *A woman has to be able to respect her husband. She has to be able to admire and look up to him. My husband's example to me, and my resultant respect for, and trust in, him, is the foundation of our marriage. *
> 
> It started with him, grid, not with me. I simply responded to him.
> 
> 
> 
> I am sure you can move on. I had just hoped for something different.


So the problem is that Grids wife is unable to respect him? Not that there's anything wrong with her, it's all Grids fault for not being a man she could respect? Is that what you're saying?

Grid, I think you need to ask jld to leave your thread.


----------



## jld

Nucking Futs said:


> So the problem is that Grids wife is unable to respect him? Not that there's anything wrong with her, it's all Grids fault for not being a man she could respect? Is that what you're saying?
> 
> Grid, I think you need to ask jld to leave your thread.


Any woman is going to need to be able to respect her man. It will not be different with the next one.

Grid's wife is going to learn the hard way what she has lost. Both grid and his wife have work to do on themselves.


----------



## Nucking Futs

jld said:


> Any woman is going to need to be able to respect her man. It will not be different with the next one.
> 
> Grid's wife is going to learn the hard way what she has lost. Both grid and his wife have work to do on themselves.


You have a lot of nerve coming on Grids thread and saying his wife cheated on him because he wasn't a man she could respect. You don't know Grid, and you don't know his wife, and *you have absolutely no experience in infidelity at all!* 

Disgusting.


----------



## jld

Nucking Futs said:


> You have a lot of nerve coming on Grids thread and saying his wife cheated on him because he wasn't a man she could respect. You don't know Grid, and you don't know his wife, and *you have absolutely no experience in infidelity at all!*
> 
> Disgusting.


I did not say that. I said any woman is going to need to respect her man. His actions are what are going to earn her respect.

Don't read into it.


----------



## happy as a clam

Nucking Futs said:


> Grid, I think you need to ask jld to leave your thread.


I agree. Circular rehashing, blame, and guilt are very damaging.

Grid, you WILL rise like a Phoenix. Your wings are already starting to unfurl .

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

happy as a clam said:


> Because a certain poster has now made it all about TS and her addictions. Here we go again.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Are you talking about the Cloak of Doom?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

No, I actually think she is helpful now. She is forcing him, even with his excuses for her actions, to remember how compromising his boundaries, ignoring his own morals, putting his wife and kids first actually led to the place he is in now. Every time she blames him now, his posts get stronger and stronger. He knows where he made his mistakes, he knows what he tried to do for the last nearly half a year and he has come to the realization, addict or not, he can make his own choices without his wife's input or love.


----------



## Ms. GP

gridcom said:


> I have, frankly, heard enough about how I wasn't "Christ-like" and should have turned the other cheek and should have held her and been a strong man while her mind was completely focused on the kid that works at Starbucks.


This and the fact we just celebrated the dude's birthday has got me thinking about what it means to be Christlike in a marriage. To my knowledge, the guy never even got married. (Mabye he was on to something! Lol) One of things, I always liked about Jesus was his humanity. Like the time, he went all Jersey housewives on the money changers in the temple and started flipping tables. Or the time he cried when his friend died, or when he was on the cross and asked God why he had forsaken him. I think if anybody could have been nonreactive it would have been him. But he had his moments of humanity just like all of us, which makes me a lot more forgiving of my own. Mabye you were a little more Christlike than you realized Grid.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

Ms. GP said:


> This and the fact we just celebrated the dude's birthday has got me thinking about what it means to be Christlike in a marriage. To my knowledge, the guy never even got married. (Mabye he was on to something! Lol) One of things, I always liked about Jesus was his humanity. Like the time, he went all Jersey housewives on the money changers in the temple and started flipping tables. Or the time he cried when his friend died, or when he was on the cross and asked God why he had forsaken him. I think if anybody could have been nonreactive it would have been him. But he had his moments of humanity just like all of us, which makes me a lot more forgiving of my own. Mabye you were a little more Christlike than you realized Grid.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Amen.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Chaparral

Nucking Futs said:


> You have a lot of nerve coming on Grids thread and saying his wife cheated on him because he wasn't a man she could respect. You don't know Grid, and you don't know his wife, and *you have absolutely no experience in infidelity at all!*
> 
> Disgusting.


You're trying to get a pit bull off of your leg with logic. Give it up.0


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

I'm out for awhile, *but lets remember:*

He accepted his fault.
He went to IC.
He went to marriage counseling.
He never kicked her out of the bedroom.
He never altered her money (court ordered of course.)
He continued counseling when she quit.
He continued working when she was still in contact with AP.
He went to a counseling retreat.
He took her to see his counselor when she was done.
He listened when the Counselor said he couldn't afford divorce.
He kept on when she hoped reconciliation would fail.

All of this *AFTER* she said she was in love, then admitted a sexual affair, blamed him, started rewriting marital history, emasculated him and filed for divorce. Notice, she did all of these thing in succession while he was trying to save the marriage. None of her actions were done all at once, they were gradual as time moved on. 

I get the fighting after her "I love you" confessions, but once she filed it should have been the 180 100%.

*“When someone shows you who they are believe them; the first time.”*

― Maya Angelou


----------



## LongWalk

JLD has a right to post. Being wrong does not make her disgusting. However, JLD, you must concede that Tomato Soup is not behaving responsibly and she is fully aware of it. Were she at all serious about getting her life in order she would cut OM out of her life, for she herself knows that he is unlikely to be a future long term partner.

She doesn't even have the courage to sleep over at his place.

Grid,

Do not agree to less than 50/50 custody. Do not move out if you can. 

But in any case you need to split up as soon as possible.


----------



## Ms. GP

jld said:


> _
> 
> @Ms. GP
> 
> LongWalk asked me to read your husband's thread. I saw this post there.
> 
> I was touched by your vulnerability to your husband. You let him see how he disappointed you, even though he could have left you alone in rehab after reading that. That was courageous of you.
> 
> I would love to see mrs. grid open her heart like that. I am afraid she has just shut grid out at this point. Maybe someday.
> 
> I hope you don't mind my asking, but did the issues in bold get resolved? How?_


_

First of all, I have to admit I Fu*%ing hate that letter!! I wrote that thing about a week sober when I was all kinds of crazy after the counsellors completely told us not too. You don't point out the other person's part in things. You focus on your side of the street and leave it at that.

@oregonmom helped me the most when it comes to making amends. She was really upset at the time with me, but she was able to put all judgments about me aside, be my friend, and share her experience of being the spouse of addict with me in way that really helped me "get it". So grateful for her for that!!

The good that will come out of this is, I have two sponsees that are stuck on step 9 ( the amends step) and I will show them this letter and how you can take a good amends and f#@% it up. Hopefully, they can learn from my mistake. 

To answer your question @jld. The bolded parts have been resolved for the most part and I asked GP his thoughts on this. I say a good MC helped us navigate that stuff. He says I started " acting better" and his anger subsided. I guess the truth is somewhere in the middle. 
Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

LongWalk said:


> Being wrong does not make her disgusting..


Correct. 

Please do not create a straw man out of my words. 
Being wrong is not disgusting, using passive aggressive insults and guilt to make someone, who is in terrible pain, see it your way is disgusting to me.


----------



## jld

Ms. GP said:


> First of all, I have to admit I Fu*%ing hate that letter!! I wrote that thing about a week sober when I was all kinds of crazy after the counsellors completely told us not too. You don't point out the other person's part in things. You focus on your side of the street and leave it at that.
> 
> @oregonmom helped me the most when it comes to making amends. She was really upset at the time with me, but she was able to put all judgments about me aside, be my friend, and share her experience of being the spouse of addict with me in way that really helped me "get it". So grateful for her for that!!
> 
> The good that will come out of this is, I have two sponsees that are stuck on step 9 ( the amends step) and I will show them this letter and how you can take a good amends and f#@% it up. Hopefully, they can learn from my mistake.
> 
> To answer your question @jld. The bolded parts have been resolved for the most part and I asked GP his thoughts on this. I say a good MC helped us navigate that stuff. He says I started " acting better" and his anger subsided. I guess the truth is somewhere in the middle.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am very impressed with the success you have had with your sobriety, Ms. GP. You are one motivated woman. 

And just ftr, I thought the letter was clearly very sincere and heartfelt. Very *real*. It was a definite reality check for him, I would guess. 

We all need that in our marriages. Being able to hear it from the person in the world that knows us best and loves us most can only benefit us. _If we have the humility to hear it!_


----------



## Evinrude58

Why do people try drugs, knowing it will ruin their lives. Why do people cheat on the person they've sworn to love more than anyone? They wanted at the time of marriage to spend their whole life with that person. They know cheating is destructive.
I don't have the answers.

I do think that grids wife was a failure. She failed to respect herself, by letting a young fellow with no respect for another man's marriage, start a relationship with her and have sex with her. She failed to see the pain she brought Grid and his daughter. This will be with grid and his d the rest of their lives.

I know things get hard in life. It's hard to live with someone. Hard to put others first and yourself second. Hard to find a balance between doing things that make yourself happy, and doing things to make your spouse happy. 
But a person of character is able to make an effort at these things without ever seriously considering starting a relationship with another person before dealing with the relationship they already are in. 

The problem here is grid's wife's lack of character. He can't love her into having perseverance, loyalty, and self-respect. He can gain her respect by being a man of character. I personally think grid has a lot of character and has shown this beyond a shadow of a doubt to anyone willing to see it. His wife can't, because she has shut her heart and her eyes to him because of the horrible pain it would cause her to come to the realization that not only did she betray him, but that she betrayed a good man that loved her with all his heart---even in spite of her total betrayal of him. It's not that she doesn't respect him, it's that she can't respect him because respecting him would point the finger of guilt back to her.

All that he can do is move on and pray for her. Love her by turning her loose to be with the person she has shown she loves more than anyone else--- herself. I believe she will find living with that person the hardest thing of all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

LongWalk said:


> JLD has a right to post. Being wrong does not make her disgusting. However, JLD, you must concede that Tomato Soup is not behaving responsibly and she is fully aware of it. Were she at all serious about getting her life in order she would cut OM out of her life, for she herself knows that he is unlikely to be a future long term partner.
> 
> She doesn't even have the courage to sleep over at his place.


I think she is addicted, LW. Dr. Harley talks about that on his site. 

I do think she will eventually be very sorry that the marriage ended on this note. I hope she will write grid a sincere and contrite letter of apology someday.

And she will spend the rest of her life making this up to her girls.


----------



## Pluto2

jld said:


> I think she is addicted, LW. Dr. Harley talks about that on his site.
> 
> I do think she will eventually be very sorry that the marriage ended on this note. I hope she will write grid a sincere and contrite letter of apology someday.
> 
> And she will spend the rest of her life making this up to her girls.


 Good God, you know nothing about this!

Some times the WS leaves, never feels remorse, and never repents. Life does not follow a script-it happens.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> I think she is addicted, LW. Dr. Harley talks about that on his site.
> 
> I do think she will eventually be very sorry that the marriage ended on this note. I hope she will write grid a sincere and contrite letter of apology someday.
> 
> And she will spend the rest of her life making this up to her girls.


Choices have consequences.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Choices have consequences.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Indeed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

phillybeffandswiss said:


> It's funny how you LOVE to take credit when something sort of works, but when your suggestions fail the person didn't follow your advice at all or correctly. When he was listening to you, the encouragement was ridiculous. When he stopped listening and made contrary decisions the passive aggressive browbeating insults began.
> Disgusting.


Three words you will never hear a WS or jld say.......

I
was
wrong


----------



## bandit.45

Grid I've asked this before: has her pastor and church family been made aware of her adultery? Do they know the man she brings to church is her affair partner? The Bible commands believers to root out sin within the brethren. If you do not inform them, you are committing a sin. You know that right?


----------



## bandit.45

Chuck71 said:


> Three words you will never hear a WS or jld say.......
> 
> I
> was
> wrong


Yep.


For a cheater to admit they were wrong and screwed their life up would tear down that fragile, false self-image they have built up for themselves.


----------



## Nucking Futs

LongWalk said:


> JLD has a right to post. *Being wrong does not make her disgusting. *However, JLD, you must concede that Tomato Soup is not behaving responsibly and she is fully aware of it. Were she at all serious about getting her life in order she would cut OM out of her life, for she herself knows that he is unlikely to be a future long term partner.
> 
> She doesn't even have the courage to sleep over at his place.
> 
> Grid,
> 
> Do not agree to less than 50/50 custody. Do not move out if you can.
> 
> But in any case you need to split up as soon as possible.


No one said Jld was disgusting. Her attitude of blame the man no matter what and save the marriage no matter what it costs the man _is_ disgusting in my opinion. At various times I've thought she was a misandrist because of the above attitude but that attitude also shows no respect for women.


----------



## gridcom

bandit.45 said:


> Grid I've asked this before: has her pastor and church family been made aware of her adultery? Do they know the man she brings to church is her affair partner? The Bible commands believers to root out sin within the brethren. If you do not inform them, you are committing a sin. You know that right?


He Pastor and church family all know about her affair. Her mentor at her church told me that my wife is being led around by the devil. She sent me an e-mail today, here's a quote:

_And just so you know...it does pain me to know you are experiencing this kind of life with XXXX. She is an amazing person and I'm so sorry she can't be convinced to other than what she is doing._ 

Her AP doesn't go to church with her, isnt part of her church.


----------



## Chuck71

ThreeStrikes said:


> Some things I've picked up on from this thread:
> 
> 1. Its wicked hard to give up on the life you thought you were going to live, especially when you're a nice guy/KISA.
> 
> 2. Nice advice is not the same as good advice.
> 
> 3. Insufferable know-it-alls can carry the same wrecking ball capacity as cheaters and addicts.
> 
> 4. Eliminating those wrecking balls from one's life is the only way to live a life of contentment and peace. (Yes, Mavash, I understand now)
> 
> 5. Most of the crew here at TAM know what the hell they are talking about. Best therapy ever.


I would post the -I agree- icon but it freezes my old POS computer up sometimes.

On this thread, like others, the vast majority give the same advice... just at different "speeds"

Usually there are one, two, a few that say -try this way-. As I told Grid 150 pages ago.... consider ALL advice.

Give each side thought. Take what you agree with from the minority, same with the majority.

Most of us on here give the best advice we can. If the advice we give backfires, most of us will admit to it.

I joined TAM three years back when my M was going in the toilet. My two D threads will be 1-2% as long

as Grid's when it is complete. I think I learned more from other people's thread than my own.

I was re-reading ReGroup's thread this summer.... I took a few guys under my wing since I was not actively seeking a LTR.

Focused on Conrad and Mavishs comments. Mavish was strict about setting boundaries with your parents.

Few months later..... my mom fell ill. Thank you Mavish. I thought I was an ahole for setting them with mom.

TAM is A1 therapy if you get feedback from the right people.


----------



## LongWalk

And he wouldn't be welcome either, except as a sinner in need of redemption.

Tomato Soup faces a contradiction that she is not figuring out. She discovered Grid as a man of quality. She became disillusioned in him for various reasons that he has gone into, but she acted on her dissatisfaction and now sees no way of coming back, at least not without soul searching.

And what is going to make her do that?

Waking up in some depressing apartment that is supposed to be the beginning of the great new life may cause introspection.

Maybe she will just begin searching for a new man.


----------



## bandit.45

gridcom said:


> He Pastor and church family all know about her affair. Her mentor at her church told me that my wife is being led around by the devil. She sent me an e-mail today, here's a quote:
> 
> _And just so you know...it does pain me to know you are experiencing this kind of life with XXXX. She is an amazing person and I'm so sorry she can't be convinced to other than what she is doing._
> 
> Her AP doesn't go to church with her, isnt part of her church.


Hmm. Interesting.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## eric1

What a piece of crap enabling mentor she has.

Amazing people don't do crappy things. You are what you are.

She's a rotten human, and worse she's ignorant to that fact.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## gridcom

eric1 said:


> What a piece of crap enabling mentor she has.
> 
> Amazing people don't do crappy things. You are what you are.
> 
> She's a rotten human, and worse she's ignorant to that fact.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


She's tried.


----------



## bandit.45

Her church family should be holding her accountable. Problem is, most churches are lukewarm and no longer hold their congregations to a high level of accountability...not in the way that Paul taught us we should. Most pastors today are cowards. They either throw their responsibility off on a subordinate or they don't do anything at all. They are so afraid of targeting and dealing with sin amongst their flock that they really have no affectiveness as leaders anymore. 

If I were her pastor I would invite her in with some other women present and lay down the law to her. I would tell her that she is living in sin and that I cannot allow her to taint the congregation with her wickedness. She either stops her affair, admits her sin, submits herself to God's will, or I ask her to leave. Let her go and find a church who will put up with her sinfulness. 

But I am not a pastor, nor am I even a devout Christian anymore, but I do know what the Bible says about this. Paul would have raked her over the coals and had her crumpled in a ball, weeping at his feet when he got done with her.

You may have noticed that I despise hypocrites like her.


----------



## Chuck71

Grid.... you will be a phoenix rising from the ashes.

Small reading assignment..... AFPhoenix ... 38 pages 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-through-divorce-separation/164673-long-painful-path.html


----------



## Chuck71

bandit.45 said:


> Her church family should be holding her accountable. Problem is, most churches are lukewarm and no longer hold their congregations to a high level of accountability...not in the way that Paul taught us we should. Most pastors today are cowards. They either throw their responsibility off on a subordinate or they don't do anything at all. They are so afraid of targeting and dealing with sin amongst their flock that they really have no affectiveness as leaders anymore.
> 
> If I were her pastor I would invite her in with some other women present and lay down the law to her. I would tell her that she is living in sin and that I cannot allow her to taint the congregation with her wickedness. She either stops her affair, admits her sin, submits herself to God's will, or I ask her to leave. Let her go and find a church who will put up with her sinfulness.
> 
> But I am not a pastor, nor am I even a devout Christian anymore, but I do know what the Bible says about this. Paul would have raked her over the coals and had her crumpled in a ball, weeping at his feet when he got done with her.
> 
> You may have noticed that I despise hypocrites like her.


A lot of the smaller churches around where I live still take cheaters to the mat.

But.... a lot of these small churches consist 90% of around 5-6 families and extended families.


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> This article on addiction was posted recently on TAM:
> 
> http://themindunleashed.org/2013/10/30-traits-of-empath.html<br />
> 
> _"Loving an addict is really hard. When I looked at the addicts I love, it was always tempting to follow the tough love advice doled out by reality shows like Intervention — tell the addict to shape up, or cut them off. Their message is that an addict who won’t stop should be shunned. It’s the logic of the drug war, imported into our private lives.
> 
> But in fact, I learned, that will only deepen their addiction — and you may lose them altogether. I came home determined to tie the addicts in my life closer to me than ever — to let them know I love them unconditionally, whether they stop, or whether they can’t.
> 
> When I returned from my long journey, I looked at my ex-boyfriend, in withdrawal, trembling on my spare bed, and I thought about him differently. For a century now, we have been singing war songs about addicts. It occurred to me as I wiped his brow, we should have been singing love songs to them all along."_


My motto is if you want to know something go to the source. In this case if you want to know what to do with an addict, ask an addict. I'm an addict. I say that in present tense because once you are an addict you're always an addict. The potential to backslide, regress or otherwise return to the addiction is always there. It sits right behind your eyes just waiting for an opportunity to resurrect. I can tell you unequivocally that you cannot love an addict out of addiction. Once an addict makes the decision to try and get clean, yes, they should be encouraged, helped and loved. But as long as they wallow in their addiction, as long as the addict is in the throughs of their fix they cannot be helped. One thing that those that have had connections with an addict will understand, addicts are very good at manipulating. They are masters at convincing you they are ready to change. They play on your desire to help them just looking for the opening to take advantage of the poor schmuck who enters their web. I was very good at taking advantage of people. As soon as someone told me that they loved me and wanted to help I immediately started calculating the best avenue that would lead me to get whatever I could squeeze out of them. I burned a lot of bridges. I hurt a lot of people. But I always found another mark to milk dry. I can never fully make up for the damage I caused but I spend every day trying my hardest to do so. What the author is encouraging is nothing more than an endless cycle of codependency that hurts both the addict and the one(s) that love them.


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> Ele, I think what Johann Hari is saying is that love, and hope based on both individual and societal support, is what makes addicts change. Not everyone has the strength of will to generate that on their own.
> 
> Johann Hari is a man, and has a book out on addiction that fleshes out the points he made in that article. One Amazon reviewer called it the best book of 2015. I think I am going to read it.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1620408902?vs=1
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No. What makes an addict change is the addict wanting to change. That's it plain and simple.


----------



## LongWalk

It's been said before but bears saying again, that Tomato Soup will look at Grid differently when he starts dating again.


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> It's the addiction, grid.
> 
> Grid, can you relate to her addiction at all?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Can you? I can. The only way Grid can make it through this is to totally detach from her until the divorce goes through.


----------



## bandit.45

bfree said:


> No. What makes an addict change is the addict wanting to change. That's it plain and simple.


Yep. That is one of he tenants I bang on with my guys at AA. They have to want to quit, and they have to want to do it for themselves. And they cannot just want it halfways. They have to be all in for sobriety or they are wasting time. 

That's why I do t harp on people here at TAM who have drinking problems but don't ask help. It would be a waste of time. They have to fist acknowledge that the addiction is a negative in their life and then they want to have to give up everything -- their social life, enabling friends, enabling family -- if they really want to get better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Did you read this, @bfree?

_"There is an alternative. *You can build a system that is designed to help drug addicts to reconnect with the world — and so leave behind their addictions.*

This isn’t theoretical. It is happening. I have seen it. Nearly fifteen years ago, Portugal had one of the worst drug problems in Europe, with 1 percent of the population addicted to heroin. They had tried a drug war, and the problem just kept getting worse. So they decided to do something radically different. They resolved to decriminalize all drugs, and transfer all the money they used to spend on arresting and jailing drug addicts, and spend it instead on reconnecting them — to their own feelings, and to the wider society. *The most crucial step is to get them secure housing, and subsidized jobs so they have a purpose in life, and something to get out of bed for. I watched as they are helped, in warm and welcoming clinics, to learn how to reconnect with their feelings, after years of trauma and stunning them into silence with drugs.*

One example I learned about was a group of addicts who were given a loan to set up a removals firm. *Suddenly, they were a group, all bonded to each other, and to the society, and responsible for each other’s care.*

The results of all this are now in. An independent study by the British Journal of Criminology found that since total decriminalization, addiction has fallen, and injecting drug use is down by 50 percent. I’ll repeat that: injecting drug use is down by 50 percent. Decriminalization has been such a manifest success that very few people in Portugal want to go back to the old system. The main campaigner against the decriminalization back in 2000 was Joao Figueira, the country’s top drug cop. He offered all the dire warnings that we would expect from the Daily Mail or Fox News. But when we sat together in Lisbon, he told me that everything he predicted had not come to pass — and he now hopes the whole world will follow Portugal’s example."_

How can this be called a failure?

I think Mrs. Grid is isolated. I don't think that is going to help her in any way. If anything, it makes her more emotionally dependent on that young man she works with.


----------



## Chuck71

LongWalk said:


> It's been said before but bears saying again, that Tomato Soup will look at Grid differently when he starts dating again.


I agree 110% with this. In my 30 years of dating, my friends... male and female... the one constant is....

in one form or another they always attempt to come back... 98% of the time.

Granted it may be for their own benefit or it may be genuine remorse.... who knows?

The key is to be detached 100% or as near as you can when and if they do.

Only at this time can you make a concise and competent chose to either, welcome them back or turn 

them away. Usually.... 75% of the time... the WS is turned away.

There are examples all over TAM dealing with exactly that.

If you are not detached and moved on (say you sit around and wait for her to come back.... NOT saying you will),

a repeat of the past will very likely occur. If one never learns from the past, they are condemned to repeating it.

Grid... you are on your way. You will have set backs, two steps forward, one step back.

It hurt like he!! to turn my XW away.... but I knew it was best for ME. Same thing with my ex gf from 2013-14.

We sometimes have to do things our heart doesn't want us to do.

When you have low points.... post here. When you get mad at yourself for putting up with so much of her crap,

rant her. Most of us have been.... right where you are now.


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> Did you read this, @bfree?
> 
> _"There is an alternative. *You can build a system that is designed to help drug addicts to reconnect with the world — and so leave behind their addictions.*
> 
> This isn’t theoretical. It is happening. I have seen it. Nearly fifteen years ago, Portugal had one of the worst drug problems in Europe, with 1 percent of the population addicted to heroin. They had tried a drug war, and the problem just kept getting worse. So they decided to do something radically different. They resolved to decriminalize all drugs, and transfer all the money they used to spend on arresting and jailing drug addicts, and spend it instead on reconnecting them — to their own feelings, and to the wider society. *The most crucial step is to get them secure housing, and subsidized jobs so they have a purpose in life, and something to get out of bed for. I watched as they are helped, in warm and welcoming clinics, to learn how to reconnect with their feelings, after years of trauma and stunning them into silence with drugs.*
> 
> One example I learned about was a group of addicts who were given a loan to set up a removals firm. *Suddenly, they were a group, all bonded to each other, and to the society, and responsible for each other’s care.*
> 
> The results of all this are now in. An independent study by the British Journal of Criminology found that since total decriminalization, addiction has fallen, and injecting drug use is down by 50 percent. I’ll repeat that: injecting drug use is down by 50 percent. Decriminalization has been such a manifest success that very few people in Portugal want to go back to the old system. The main campaigner against the decriminalization back in 2000 was Joao Figueira, the country’s top drug cop. He offered all the dire warnings that we would expect from the Daily Mail or Fox News. But when we sat together in Lisbon, he told me that everything he predicted had not come to pass — and he now hopes the whole world will follow Portugal’s example."_
> 
> How can this be called a failure?
> 
> I think Mrs. Grid is isolated. I don't think that is going to help her in any way. If anything, it makes her more emotionally dependent on that young man she works with.


I tried a few times to quit. I wasn't successful because I half-assed it. It was only when I truly was willing to completely change whatever I had to, do whatever I had to in order to finally drag myself out of my addiction that I started to really make progress. Mrs Grid is not willing to do this so she continues to wallow in her aberrant behavior. I'm not really sure what the point of your post is. Are you suggesting that a Grid enroll his wife in some sort of cheater reclamation program? The examples you cite show how addicts can bond together to help each other during recovery. We already know that works don't we? It's called AA. This isn't surprising since humans are tribal creatures that naturally group together with others like ourselves. My point is that a one-on-one relationship with an addict is almost always doomed to failure because there isn't any equality in the dynamic. Or maybe you might better understand it as a very damaging power imbalance with the unstable addict holding most of the psychological power due to the loved one's more desperate need to continue the relationship. The addict doesn't value the relationship. The addict values their next fix. And as we know the one who is more invested in the relationship is always in the weaker position.


----------



## gridcom

Chuck71 said:


> Grid.... you will be a phoenix rising from the ashes.
> 
> Small reading assignment..... AFPhoenix ... 38 pages
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-through-divorce-separation/164673-long-painful-path.html


Seriously, what is wrong with people


----------



## EleGirl

jld said:


> Did you read this, @bfree?
> 
> _"There is an alternative. *You can build a system that is designed to help drug addicts to reconnect with the world — and so leave behind their addictions.*
> 
> This isn’t theoretical. It is happening. I have seen it. Nearly fifteen years ago, Portugal had one of the worst drug problems in Europe, with 1 percent of the population addicted to heroin. They had tried a drug war, and the problem just kept getting worse. So they decided to do something radically different. They resolved to decriminalize all drugs, and transfer all the money they used to spend on arresting and jailing drug addicts, and spend it instead on reconnecting them — to their own feelings, and to the wider society. *The most crucial step is to get them secure housing, and subsidized jobs so they have a purpose in life, and something to get out of bed for. I watched as they are helped, in warm and welcoming clinics, to learn how to reconnect with their feelings, after years of trauma and stunning them into silence with drugs.*
> 
> One example I learned about was a group of addicts who were given a loan to set up a removals firm. *Suddenly, they were a group, all bonded to each other, and to the society, and responsible for each other’s care.*
> 
> The results of all this are now in. An independent study by the British Journal of Criminology found that since total decriminalization, addiction has fallen, and injecting drug use is down by 50 percent. I’ll repeat that: injecting drug use is down by 50 percent. Decriminalization has been such a manifest success that very few people in Portugal want to go back to the old system. The main campaigner against the decriminalization back in 2000 was Joao Figueira, the country’s top drug cop. He offered all the dire warnings that we would expect from the Daily Mail or Fox News. But when we sat together in Lisbon, he told me that everything he predicted had not come to pass — and he now hopes the whole world will follow Portugal’s example."_
> 
> How can this be called a failure?
> 
> I think Mrs. Grid is isolated. I don't think that is going to help her in any way. If anything, it makes her more emotionally dependent on that young man she works with.


This is something totally different. What you describe above is a society coming together to help addicts.

It's not a situation where a family is trying to help a family member with no outside resources available. And believe me there are no outside resources. In this situation, the family is taken advantage of and hurt badly by the addict.

If family love was what it took to break an addiction, there would be very few addicts. Most addicts reject any love and help that their family gives them. Instead they use their love and help as a way to extort from their family.

Plus, to say that a person who is in an affair is like a drug addict is not accurate. Sure they are on an emtional high. But there is a very big difference.


----------



## happy as a clam

I fail to see how drug addicts in Portugal have any relevance on grid's situation with his wife.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## wringo123

It also different because the addicts were willing to be helped. If drugs were decriminalized it follows that they were not court ordered to participate. The type of programs the article describes are available here if an addict is motivated to seek them out and get clean. 

Sent from my QMV7A using Tapatalk


----------



## turnera

> But in fact, I learned, that will only deepen their addiction — and you may lose them altogether. I came home determined to tie the addicts in my life closer to me than ever — to let them know I love them unconditionally, whether they stop, or whether they can’t.


Han Solo tried that approach. It didn't work.


----------



## Chaparral

Since adultery has been decriminalized and pretty much sanctioned by divorce law, adultery and divorce has skyrocketed. Adultery isn't just a drug addiction, its a moral evil and self indulgent sin.

Most people still ostrasize adulterers. Women that cheat with other men are NOT welcomed around other womens husbands. How many times have we seen known players bang their best friends wives here?


----------



## LongWalk

Being in love is not an addiction. We fall in love because it causes bonding with sex. Bonding is a evolutionary strategy to protect the children who carry the gene on. Mom and dad stick together to protect the children.

Other addictions may travel the same pathways in brain.

Heroin addicts are not interested in sex.


----------



## gridcom

LongWalk said:


> JLD has a right to post. Being wrong does not make her disgusting. However, JLD, you must concede that Tomato Soup is not behaving responsibly and she is fully aware of it. Were she at all serious about getting her life in order she would cut OM out of her life, for she herself knows that he is unlikely to be a future long term partner.
> 
> She doesn't even have the courage to sleep over at his place.
> 
> Grid,
> 
> Do not agree to less than 50/50 custody. Do not move out if you can.
> 
> But in any case you need to split up as soon as possible.


Yesterday, I never got out of bed. Except for 2 times, once to get some coffee and once to grab a bite to eat. Otherwise, I literally spent the whole day in bed. I am just floored by the continuous display of disrespect coming my way. I've read maybe 50 different stories on TAM and read maybe 5 yesterday alone, and the story is always the same. But, I just cannot get over how cruel and disrespectful my wife has been towards me. 

Catching her buying the guy a Christmas gift and her response to it has been soul crushing. Crushing...... We had an exchange yesterday where I said that she was "disrespectful and unstable" and she was like "I'm not unstable" and I asked her "well then, you're definitely disrespectful" and she basically looked at me and shrugged your shoulders like "What are you going to do?"

And it's just amazing to me that a woman that was this well respected would treat her husband like this, over some f^cking dude at her job who made her feel good. 

Again, I don't care about her. I want to be rid of her. But, I care greatly about how my kids end up in this and honestly, I care a great deal about how my relationship with my kids gets affected in the end. You mention nothing less than 50/50 custody. I don't think I could stomach 50/50 custody. No, I want 80/20 custody or something. Laying in bed all day yesterday, that's not rock bottom. Rock bottom is living without my kids. Rock bottom is spending even one night without my kids because either A) they don't actually live with me anymore and I am "dad from a distance" or B) because they are with their mother for any length of time even if they still live with me.

I did nothing to deserve having my kids taken away from me but my wife absolutely did plenty to deserve the kids being taken away from her. And I'm not talking about "the law". I'm talking about right and wrong. I'm learning quickly on this site that "the law" and "right and wrong" are two separate issues. 

I texted with my friend yesterday who's kids went with their father right after they opened XMas gifts on Xmas morning. He came and picked them up at 10am and he has them until later tonight. So, she sat alone in her apartment for essentially 3 days watching Food Network and Godzilla movies and playing on FB because her family and most of her friends live 150 miles from her (and she's broke). She didn't mince words. She told me how much it sucks. She told me that even though she's divorced her husband TWICE she considers getting back with him just so she doesn't have to be without her kids on occasions such as this. 

My thing right now is that I don't want my wife living here if she is going to carry on with this guy. I'd move out if she'd allow me to pay my own bills first and then give her what's left, but she won't allow it. Of course, I can move out as long as the bills here are paid, but that means I'd have to move in with my mother in my old bedroom I grew up in. And I'm not willing to do that. nothing could be worse. And she wont move out because, obviously, she can't afford it. So, here we are. Like my IC said "You two can't AFFORD to divorce!"

But, yet, this woman who is looked up to in our community, who's friends are all just so shocked by this, she thinks it's OK to carry on with this man like this in plain site. I wonder what her co-workers think. I was in touch with one of her co-workers but not so much recently. I know most of them knew, and that was back in Sept. I'm sure they all whisper to each other, and she walks in clueless. 
Anyway, all I want for Christmas is some peace of mind. Go ahead and BE WITH THE GUY. I really don't have any good feelings left for her. But, you can't just live here and and have a relationship like this right in my face. it isn't right. 

It's unforgivable.


----------



## bandit.45

Man I feel so bad for you. Know you have a lot of people on this end who care about you brother. Sending you a big burly Bandit man-hug. 

Why didn't you get up and go spend the day with that lady friend?


----------



## Pluto2

Cancel the credit cards.
Put half your money in a separate account. You can still pay the necessary bills. But hell should freeze over before she has extra money to buy OM another gift. She is working. hand her a portion of the bills and tell her these are her responsibility now. This won't be abandonment (the lawyer's concern), it is re-organizing family finances. People do it all the time whether they divorce or not.


----------



## happyman64

Grid

Choose your battles wisely.

I understand the disrespect. But your wife does not.

You need to focus on you and what your needs are to separate yourself from her infidelity.

If my wife cheated on me, a work affair and the OM was a barista I would take a few days off.

Stand outside her job in the AM and then stand outside the Starbucks in the PM with a huge sign that says this:

"My wife has committed adultery with a former CoW that is now a barista. I am a good man, dad and husband. Please send my family your prayers. Merry Christmas!"

I would embarrass the living crap out of her. That is the consequence I would have given her for the holidays.

HM


----------



## Duguesclin

gridcom said:


> Yesterday, I never got out of bed.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, I don't care about her. I want to be rid of her. But, I care greatly about how my kids end up in this and honestly, I care a great deal about how my relationship with my kids gets affected in the end. You mention nothing less than 50/50 custody. I don't think I could stomach 50/50 custody. No, I want 80/20 custody or something. Laying in bed all day yesterday, that's not rock bottom. Rock bottom is living without my kids. Rock bottom is spending even one night without my kids because either A) they don't actually live with me anymore and I am "dad from a distance" or B) because they are with their mother for any length of time even if they still live with me.


How are you going to have even 50/50 custody if you stay in bed and let your wife be the primary care giver to your kids?

If your kids are important and you cannot live without them, why aren't you with them all day?

Get up and get going. Your kids don't deserve a depressed dad.


----------



## just got it 55

Pluto2 said:


> Cancel the credit cards.
> Put half your money in a separate account. You can still pay the necessary bills. But hell should freeze over before she has extra money to buy OM another gift. She is working. hand her a portion of the bills and tell her these are her responsibility now. This won't be abandonment (the lawyer's concern), it is re-organizing family finances. People do it all the time whether they divorce or not.


Grid why have you not done this yet ?

55


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Who said life was fair?

Why are you engaging her? Still trying to punish her? 

Does that make you feel better?

Sh!tty things happen to good people. All. The. Time. Deal with it.

Get back to 50k. Use your righteous anger to push through this D process as fast as possible.


----------



## just got it 55

ThreeStrikes said:


> Who said life was fair?
> 
> Why are you engaging her? Still trying to punish her?
> 
> Does that make you feel better?
> 
> Sh!tty things happen to good people. All. The. Time. Deal with it.
> 
> Get back to 50k. Use your righteous anger to push through this D process as fast as possible.


And just leave her enough money to buy her daily can of Tomato Soup.

55


----------



## gridcom

Pluto2 said:


> Cancel the credit cards.
> Put half your money in a separate account. You can still pay the necessary bills. But hell should freeze over before she has extra money to buy OM another gift. She is working. hand her a portion of the bills and tell her these are her responsibility now. This won't be abandonment (the lawyer's concern), it is re-organizing family finances. People do it all the time whether they divorce or not.


I have moved my paychecks into my own account. I paid off and killed a few credit cards entirely, just small nagging ones (Best Buy, Home Depot). She has credit cards that are in her name only, but I'm told they are marital debt. The money owed on these bills is high. I would love to stop them, but how do I do that if they are in her name, and not mine? 

I plan on calling my lawyer tomorrow, so I will ask him. I am thinking of ditching mediation and just biting the bullet and kissing a large sum of money away and going for the throat. Some of my family have told me they'd help out and I have a large chunk of my bonus sitting there for this very reason. The only thing holding me back is leaving the outcome in the hands of another party. But, I believe in karma and honestly mediation can only be done working together and I can't even look at this woman's face without an overwhelming desire to spit in it.

And I'm out of bed. i am going to work out today and hang with the kids while my wife goes to her toxic job where people whisper behind her back and she's none the wiser


----------



## Duguesclin

gridcom said:


> I have moved my paychecks into my own account. I paid off and killed a few credit cards entirely, just small nagging ones (Best Buy, Home Depot). She has credit cards that are in her name only, but I'm told they are marital debt. The money owed on these bills is high. I would love to stop them, but how do I do that if they are in her name, and not mine?
> 
> I plan on calling my lawyer tomorrow, so I will ask him. I am thinking of ditching mediation and just biting the bullet and kissing a large sum of money away and going for the throat. Some of my family have told me they'd help out and I have a large chunk of my bonus sitting there for this very reason. The only thing holding me back is leaving the outcome in the hands of another party. But, I believe in karma and honestly mediation can only be done working together and I can't even look at this woman's face without an overwhelming desire to spit in it.
> 
> And I'm out of bed. i am going to work out today and hang with the kids while my wife goes to her toxic job where people whisper behind her back and she's none the wiser


Honestly Grid, what is your priority, the kids or her throat?

Destroying the mother of your kids is not in their best interest.


----------



## gridcom

Duguesclin said:


> Honestly Grid, what is your priority, the kids or her throat?
> 
> Destroying the mother of your kids is not in their best interest.


My priority is staying living in this house and the kids living here with me. That's my only priority. That's what I want.

Keep in mind, I work from home full time. She'll be working 40+ hours a week and commuting on top in order to maintain a house with the her and the kids in it. They'll be raised by babysitters.


----------



## Duguesclin

gridcom said:


> My priority is staying living in this house and the kids living here with me. That's my only priority. That's what I want.


And do you think going for her throat is going to make this possible?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## gridcom

Duguesclin said:


> And do you think going for her throat is going to make this possible?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes. What I mean by going for the throat is letting my lawyer loose on the offensive so I can get what I want. I have documented everything. I have mounds and mounds of documentation. NY being a no-fault State, much of it is worthless.


----------



## just got it 55

Duguesclin said:


> Honestly Grid, what is your priority, the kids or her throat?
> 
> Destroying the mother of your kids is not in their best interest.


And destroying their father is ?

WTF

55


----------



## Marc878

You should have cut her off and came to this conclusion earlier. Why didn't you?

She's cake eating without consequences. Why should she stop? 

Without any changes the saga continues.

You can't afford to divorce? Ok, then accept your life as it is. Stop wasting time complaining.

Your the one who has to figure this out. No one is going to do it for you.


----------



## Nucking Futs

gridcom said:


> I have moved my paychecks into my own account. I paid off and killed a few credit cards entirely, just small nagging ones (Best Buy, Home Depot). *She has credit cards that are in her name only, but I'm told they are marital debt.* The money owed on these bills is high. I would love to stop them, but how do I do that if they are in her name, and not mine?
> 
> I plan on calling my lawyer tomorrow, so I will ask him. I am thinking of ditching mediation and just biting the bullet and kissing a large sum of money away and going for the throat. Some of my family have told me they'd help out and I have a large chunk of my bonus sitting there for this very reason. The only thing holding me back is leaving the outcome in the hands of another party. But, I believe in karma and honestly mediation can only be done working together and I can't even look at this woman's face without an overwhelming desire to spit in it.
> 
> And I'm out of bed. i am going to work out today and hang with the kids while my wife goes to her toxic job where people whisper behind her back and she's none the wiser


They're marital debt up to the day she filed for divorce, anything spent on those cards after that is on her. Confirm that with your lawyer, don't let him get lazy and stick you with half of what she's spent since.


----------



## gridcom

Nucking Futs said:


> They're marital debt up to the day she filed for divorce, anything spent on those cards after that is on her. Confirm that with your lawyer, don't let him get lazy and stick you with half of what she's spent since.


That I completely aware of.


----------



## happyman64

"Going for the throat" is rather ambiguous.

She continues to lie. 
She continues to cheat.
She filed for divorce.

Yet she is willing to mediate.

How do you mediate with a liar and a cheater?

You don't.

Grid needs to lawyer up and show his wife his other side.

The father who will fight for his children.

The man who will no longer tolerate her disrespect quietly.


----------



## just got it 55

happyman64 said:


> "Going for the throat" is rather ambiguous.
> 
> She continues to lie.
> She continues to cheat.
> She filed for divorce.
> 
> Yet she is willing to mediate.
> 
> How do you mediate with a liar and a cheater?
> 
> You don't.
> 
> Grid needs to lawyer up and show his wife his other side.
> 
> The father who will fight for his children.
> 
> The man who will no longer tolerate her disrespect quietly.



:iagree:

You can only bent over backwards before you realize you are kissing your own A$$

55


----------



## Duguesclin

just got it 55 said:


> And destroying their father is ?
> 
> WTF
> 
> 55


If the kids are the priority, it does not matter.

But the reality is that Grid's emotions and pride are too much in the way to make the kids a priority. They are just collateral damage.


----------



## happy as a clam

Forget mediation, grid. She's in no state of mind to negotiate fairly and it will be a big sucker punch for you.

Pit bull lawyer...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Have you told OM's boss at Starbucks what he's doing?


----------



## gridcom

Duguesclin said:


> If the kids are the priority, it does not matter.
> 
> But the reality is that Grid's emotions and pride are too much in the way to make the kids a priority. They are just collateral damage.


I honestly have no idea what you are getting at, what you are trying to tell me. You are suggesting I do what exactly? Continue with mediation? Why? 

Are you telling me I don't have the right to fight for custody of my kids? That I should just let the mother have them without contest why?


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Court is an adversarial process. There will be a winner and loser. That's reality.

Ask for what you want. But I think you will find that there is no justice in the family courts of our great nation. Karma shmarma.

I've been down that road and experienced it first hand. It's a valuable life lesson about letting go....

Nonetheless, you will come out, at the end, forged anew.


----------



## jld

Like Starbucks is going to care. 

And what is a pit bull lawyer going to do? She probably has his depression documented. How is that going to get him more than 50/50?

It is really a matter of dividing the debt, as there do not seem to be many assets. 50/50 custody is pretty standard now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## gridcom

jld said:


> Like Starbucks is going to care.
> 
> And what is a pit bull lawyer going to do? She probably has his depression documented. How is that going to get him more than 50/50?
> 
> It is really a matter of dividing the debt, as there do not seem to be many assets. 50/50 custody is pretty standard now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How would she have "my depression documented"? Because I laid in bed all day for one day? I have 16 days off. So, I laid in bed all day one day. All of a sudden I'm unfit? That's nonsense. Maybe I just laid in bed all day because sometimes you just want to lay in bed all day and do nothing.


----------



## jld

gridcom said:


> How would she have "my depression documented"? Because I laid in bed all day for one day? I have 16 days off. So, I laid in bed all day one day. All of a sudden I'm unfit? That's nonsense. Maybe I just laid in bed all day because sometimes you just want to lay in bed all day and do nothing.


I am just saying that if you make this contentious, she will, too. It is a risky road to go down.

Go for 50/50 everything. Press to get it done quickly. Then move on.

Don't let your emotions rule you. Keep a cool head. You will be coparenting for a long time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## just got it 55

Duguesclin said:


> If the kids are the priority, it does not matter.
> 
> But the reality is that Grid's emotions and pride are too much in the way to make the kids a priority. They are just collateral damage.


You seem to have little understanding of the lack of consequences.

Grid has gone the full root of being NICE
Consequences are what will protect Grids children and Grid

TS has done nothing to suggest she is taking the security of the children into account.

Grids stand has always been what his concern for his babies '

55


----------



## Duguesclin

gridcom said:


> I honestly have no idea what you are getting at, what you are trying to tell me. You are suggesting I do what exactly? Continue with mediation? Why?
> 
> Are you telling me I don't have the right to fight for custody of my kids? That I should just let the mother have them without contest why?


To get what you want, your best interest is to work with your wife. A court battle makes only the lawyers happy.

Your kids have 2 parents and they are equally important to them. Looking at their parents destroying each other is not good.

Look at it as if you were already divorced. Your wife is certainly behaving that way.


----------



## turnera

> Like Starbucks is going to care.


Starbucks is going to fire this two-bit CHILD from its store, whom they can replace with a few dozen other young pups looking for $9/hour, if they determine some angry husband is going to be hanging around outside their establishment to punish this 'employee' for banging his wife.

So far, grid has done next to NOTHING to make this affair painful, he's bent over backwards to be extra-special nice to his CHEATING WIFE because you, jld, convinced him he had SO MUCH to atone for. And all it has done is solidified for her that she has the RIGHT to treat him like garbage because, after all, he's just a pathetic weak doormat who won't stand up for himself. And now he's lying in bed all day feeling sorry for himself so he's just proving her right.


----------



## gridcom

jld said:


> I am just saying that if you make this contentious, she will, too. It is a risky road to go down.
> 
> Go for 50/50 everything. Press to get it done quickly. Then move on.
> 
> Don't let your emotions rule you. Keep a cool head. You will be coparenting for a long time.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She's already made it contentious. She is absolutely the antagonist here. And I'm just talking about the last few weeks. Every calm is disrupted by her causing a storm. Every single time. I'm done playing nice.


----------



## LongWalk

Duguesclin said:


> Honestly Grid, what is your priority, the kids or her throat?
> 
> Destroying the mother of your kids is not in their best interest.


Grid,

The above poster is JLD's husband in case you did not know.

I agree with him that destroying her is unnecessary. Besides, she is doing it on her own. You don't need to help her and you cannot stop her if she doesn't want to.

There are three scenarios:

1) You reconcile
2) You divorce into a long term state of conflict
3) You divorce into some blend of harmony/indifference

Your wife has chosen to have an affair that she cannot afford. Ignore it, even if it irks you heart and soul. Much of the "pleasure" she gets at present is knowing how wound up you are over her behavior. Remove the fun by putting on a poker face. Don't look glum and angry. Let your emotions surge up for minute, then suppress them.

The chronic mismanagement of her vagina control system must cease to be the central existential question of your life.

She has been carrying on the affair in false reconciliation for months now. 

Examine what mediation offers. Is it binding? Saving money is still good if you can.

I'll give you a little tip. When you think about financial conflict with your STBX, remember that all her worldly goods will end up with your daughters in the long run. She cannot have more children, right?

Instead of feeling depressed play your drums again. Start teaching your daughter the guitar or harmonica. You have real music. OM only hs Spotify playlists.


----------



## jld

gridcom said:


> She's already made it contentious. She is absolutely the antagonist here. And I'm just talking about the last few weeks. Every calm is disrupted by her causing a storm. Every single time. I'm done playing nice.


You are taking a big risk here. You have got to get control of your emotions, grid. Are you thinking about the coparenting part?

Go for 50/50 everything. Keep a cool head.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## just got it 55

Grid one thing Dug and JLD are correct about is to keep a cool head

Remember 

Clear & Present Detachment

55


----------



## jld

Low wage places just want people to show up on time, turnera. They would just call the police if grid raised a fuss. That would not look good for him in court, would it?

Work in your own best interests, grid. Acting out of emotion won't help you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happy as a clam

gridcom said:


> How would she have "my depression documented"? Because I laid in bed all day for one day? I have 16 days off. So, I laid in bed all day one day. All of a sudden I'm unfit? *That's nonsense.* Maybe I just laid in bed all day because sometimes you just want to lay in bed all day and do nothing.


grid's vision is getting clearer now on many fronts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

happy as a clam said:


> grid's vision is getting clearer now on many fronts.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Is it?

Looks pretty clouded by emotion to me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pluto2

Mediation ONLY works, and I mean ONLY works if the parties are already in complete agreement on pretty much everything before you go. TS has already filed for D, hence making it adversarial.

Yes, kids deserve loving agreeable co-parents. Making sure Grid does not continue to pay for her A, or her bad choices does not deprive the children of anything. Grid's "ego" and "humility" is not a justification to roll over and play dead and give TS every little thing her heart demands.

And Grid deserved a faithful wife.


----------



## just got it 55

jld said:


> Low wage places just want people to show up on time, turnera. They would just call the police if grid raised a fuss. That would not look good for him in court, would it?
> 
> Work in your own best interests, grid. Acting out of emotion won't help you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Grid can send letters to Starbucks every day He can send emails to CHQ in Seattle every day 

I deal with Starbucks and believe me they will care if the info gets into the right hands.

There will be no police involved 

Starbucks is very social conscious VERY.

55


----------



## Marc878

happy as a clam said:


> grid's vision is getting clearer now on many fronts.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How so?????


----------



## LongWalk

"A healthy choice to enforce boundaries by walking away from a dysfunctional relationship has more to do with recognizing the likeliest outcomes than with wanting to punish or retaliate against one's wayward spouse."

-TAM member Moxy


----------



## happy as a clam

Pluto2 said:


> Mediation ONLY works, and I mean ONLY works if the parties are already in complete agreement on pretty much everything before you go. TS has already filed for D, hence making it adversarial.


QFT.

Mediation is a big fat waste of time and money unless BOTH parties can amicably work together to reach a settlement. 

Ask me how I know.

Their current situation is the complete opposite of amicable.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

just got it 55 said:


> Grid can send letters to Starbucks every day He can send emails to CH in Seattle every day
> 
> I deal with Starbucks and believe me they will care if the info gets into the right hands.
> 
> There will be no police involved
> 
> Starbucks is very social conscious VERY.
> 
> 55


Exactly. I've witnessed several such situations, and the company ALWAYS gets rid of the unimportant person behind all the ruckus. A CEO? Maybe not. But a barrista? You bet your a$$ they'll chuck him in a second if him being there affects their bottom line. Social media, news outlets, letters to the franchise owner's supervisor...won't take much. But grid's been SO SCARED of angering his wife because of YOU, jld, he hasn't even given thought to presenting consequences. It's not too late. All it takes is her little lover boy getting fired and going off on a b*tchfest against grid's wife for 'causing' him to lose his job, and suddenly he won't seem so wonderful.


----------



## just got it 55

happy as a clam said:


> QFT.
> 
> Mediation is a big fat waste of time and money unless BOTH parties can amicably work together to reach a settlement.
> 
> Ask me how I know.
> 
> Their current situation is the complete opposite of amicable.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


In TS currant state of (NO) mind Grid will have a better chance negotiating with ISIS:surprise:

55


----------



## jld

just got it 55 said:


> Grid can send letters to Starbucks every day He can send emails to CHQ in Seattle every day
> 
> I deal with Starbucks and believe me they will care if the info gets into the right hands.
> 
> There will be no police involved
> 
> Starbucks is very social conscious VERY.
> 
> 55


Socially conscious means they recycle. They don't care about the sex lives of their minimum wage workers.

*rolls eyes*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happy as a clam

Marc878 said:


> How so?????


He's starting to recognize complete BS when he hears it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pluto2

why do I think that certain posters know as much about the business ethics of coffee shops as they claim to do about infidelity?


----------



## just got it 55

jld said:


> Socially conscious means they recycle. They don't care about the sex lives of their minimum wage workers.
> 
> *rolls eyes*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


WRONG

I can tell you this

STBX insists their vendors act responsibly
They even require them to have ever vendor employee to do at least ten hours of community service and that is audited by STBX for verification.

55

ETA: STBX is very conscious anything negative to their brand.
They actively monitor social media for this.


----------



## JohnA

Hello Grid,

First a New Year's toast for you: "May the BEST of your life be the worst of your life in 2016".

You have written about owning your issues in the past, how are you doing at holding to those goals? A comlex issue issue, anger is both good and bad. It is often the first emotion needed to make very good changes. You need to be angry at her actions. You need to insist you both pay what you owe, and she owes big. Making anger into a constructive tool requires a mind step that rigidly controls the outward expression of it. Make both understanding why a thing angers you and controlling the outward expression of it a New Year's resolution. 

At this point do you think it might be wise to just dump the mess of the divorce into the lap of the lawyer? Sit down with him establish a plan of action and then just walk away, so that when she approaches you to discuss an issue you can say "we are past the point we can discuss this individually, talk to my lawyer". When she tries to play the fair card or best interest of the children card "at this point we need to allow the court to establish that, please talk to my lawyer". Never use the words regret or sorry in these matters. 

If she tries to play the friend card offer the ally card. There is a big difference between the two. The French culture gets this concept. I can be allied with you in business and we both get an even split of the profit but also sleep with your wife. Huh ?? Dude we are allied in the goal of making money not anything else. Use this attitude towards co-parenting. 

Could you clarify some facts: does posm work at both your wife's place of employment and Starbucks ? How far of a commute does she have? At one point you state over an hour at other points I got the impression it was much closer.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

LongWalk said:


> "A healthy choice to enforce boundaries by walking away from a dysfunctional relationship has more to do with recognizing the likeliest outcomes than with wanting to punish or retaliate against one's wayward spouse."
> 
> -TAM member Moxy


Thats my sig:grin2:

Grid, punishing TS and OM will only keep you attached in an unhealthy manner.

If TS is willing to mediate and give you 50/50, I'd go that route. 

Leaving it up to the courts is risky, and you are likely to be on the "20" side of 80/20.

Additonally, if a custody dispute arises, you're talking guardian ad litems, or child advocates, or something similar....which puts the kids under tremendous stress. It also can really drag out the process and cost a small fortune.

Mediate if she's willing. Convince her you guys can't afford a typical disputed D. 

Put a frickin fake smile on your face and be cheerful around her. Play the game with a smidgeon of wile and wit. Capeesh?

Bet you suck at poker:wink2:


----------



## Chaparral

Duguesclin said:


> If the kids are the priority, it does not matter.
> 
> But the reality is that Grid's emotions and pride are too much in the way to make the kids a priority. They are just collateral damage.


If JLD hadn't side tracked him he might have saved this marriage. As it is its just a mop up operation and a need to save him and his children. Logically, speaking you neither enable an addict or a cheater. The ONLY thing that ever works with a cheater is tough love and real life. Its been proven here over and over and over ad nauseum. Then every so often we get folks come along, myself included that come through, advise nicing/, plan Aing the cheater back and more familys bite the dust. 

More members are triggered into distraction, and ill will is spread like a plague. This is the worst case I have seen for foul advice, thread jacking and blaming the poor betrayed spouse for the affair and the failed reconciliation.

Go back and look, I said when JLD started with her inexperienced advice another family was going down the tubes. The lack of humility is apparent. As a matter of fact, I've never seen it worse in my 64 years.


----------



## gridcom

JohnA said:


> Make both understanding why a thing angers you and controlling the outward expression of it a New Year's resolution.
> 
> Could you clarify some facts: does posm work at both your wife's place of employment and Starbucks ? How far of a commute does she have? At one point you state over an hour at other points I got the impression it was much closer.


Welcome to the party.

I have plenty of New Years resolutions. I am making up for never having any resolutions in the past. This year, a bunch.

POSOM works at my wife's job AND at Starbucks. The only reason I haven't exposed her and him at their job is because I don't want to get in any trouble via harassment issues. If I felt I could skirt any blowback, I would have done this long ago. 

Everything is close. We live about 8 miles from her job. POSOM lives about 1/3rd of a mile up the street from their job. Starbucks is just a few buildings away from where they both work. 

I agree with you otherwise. I am just going to drop this in my lawyers lap. 8 days from now I'll be back to working and I need to come out the gate full gallop. On top of that, I have started a diet today and can't wait for the DDP Yoga to arrive. I've already been through the website and am anxious to be a part of their community. I also took a look around meetup.com just to see what local social events happen. Non dating. I don't want to date anyone or get involved with any woman right now at all. There is even a local board game community around here where people just get together and do board games. I am looking for some new friends. All my friends now live far away, or are work related. I need to get away from work and get into being social. This is not a recent discovery. I wish that I could have done this with my wife. That was really the main reason I started going to her church, for the community. 

Anyway, I have been really effing angry since I discovered my wife spent our money on a gift for this a$$hole. But, a good workout and a shower has mellowed me out. I still dont think mediation is the way anymore. I'll tempt fate. 

Reagrdless of the outcome, one thing is for certain and without a doubt. It's her loss.


----------



## jld

just got it 55 said:


> WRONG
> 
> I can tell you this
> 
> STBX insists their vendors act responsibly
> They even require them to have ever vendor employee to do at least ten hours of community service and that is audited by STBX for verification.
> 
> 55
> 
> ETA: STBX is very conscious anything negative to their brand.
> They actively monitor social media for this.


55. Monitoring part-time minimum wage workers' sex lives is not what they mean.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## JohnA

Also your daughters need to see a cold indifference on your part towards your wife and a warm one towards them. How would your children describe arguements between you and your wife today as opposed to six months ago? 

Has your lawyer discussed in detail the points a court will use to establish custody and discussed with you how to handle yourself in certain situations you have and will likely encounter going forward? For example I recently looked on line into Texas and Pennsylvania custody standards. In both states how you and your wife treat and say about each other can become an issue in custody. Just because no one has seen or heard of it happening does not mean it has not and cannot be used. Don't let your lawyer brush this aside.

Both states start with the sole intention of best interest of the child. Your children grew up in your home, their friends, social activities and school are linked to a geographical area. If you keep the home, work in the home and are available 24/7 vs the ex being an hour away, working outside of the home you could win primary custody. Again you lawyer needs to be able to show you how he can make this work for you.


----------



## LongWalk

gridcom said:


> Welcome to the party.
> 
> I have plenty of New Years resolutions. I am making up for never having any resolutions in the past. This year, a bunch.
> 
> POSOM works at my wife's job AND at Starbucks. The only reason I haven't exposed her and him at their job is because I don't want to get in any trouble via harassment issues. If I felt I could skirt any blowback, I would have done this long ago.
> 
> Everything is close. We live about 8 miles from her job. POSOM lives about 1/3rd of a mile up the street from their job. Starbucks is just a few buildings away from where they both work.
> 
> *So the set up for them to have continued having sex is not logistically difficult. You wife left her telephone at work and she and OM rode a bicycle built for two to his place and then they rode it some more.*
> 
> I agree with you otherwise. I am just going to drop this in my lawyers lap. 8 days from now I'll be back to working and I need to come out the gate full gallop. On top of that, I have started a diet today and can't wait for the DDP Yoga to arrive. I've already been through the website and am anxious to be a part of their community. I also took a look around meetup.com just to see what local social events happen. Non dating. I don't want to date anyone or get involved with any woman right now at all. There is even a local board game community around here where people just get together and do board games. I am looking for some new friends. All my friends now live far away, or are work related. I need to get away from work and get into being social. This is not a recent discovery. I wish that I could have done this with my wife. That was really the main reason I started going to her church, for the community.
> 
> *Good*
> 
> Anyway, I have been really effing angry since I discovered my wife spent our money on a gift for this a$$hole. But, a good workout and a shower has mellowed me out. I still dont think mediation is the way anymore. I'll tempt fate.
> 
> *She bought him a present. Peanuts in the big economic picture. Do you know what it was?*
> 
> Reagrdless of the outcome, one thing is for certain and without a doubt. It's her loss.


----------



## Lilac23

jld said:


> 55. Monitoring part-time minimum wage workers' sex lives is not what they mean.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree Starbucks probably doesn't give a rip about the employee's sex lives.

Mediation would probably be a waste of time in your case, as you and the Mrs. probably don't agree on much. Does she think she can afford to stay in the house without you? :banghead::wtf::rofl::scratchhead:


----------



## Chuck71

gridcom said:


> I'm done playing nice.


I recall saying that in my D..... right before the table were flipped.

Grid.... I strongly recommend you ignore those who negatively critique your new attitude.


----------



## Evinrude58

Do what you can to take care of yourself. Only if YOU are ok, can you take care of your kids. Your wife is a sinking ship. She won't be able to.

Ignore jld and her husband. They are kryptonite for your state of mind. 

You are right to be angry, feel disrespected. One thing they are right about-- keep a cool head. Throw it in your lawyers lap. I don't believe you could have a good mediation with such a selfish, disrespectful person, either.

However. If she WILL go 50/50 on everything, you might consider it, because you are likely to get screwed in court. Hope you have a good lawyer who knows the judges.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

jld said:


> Socially conscious means they recycle. They don't care about the sex lives of their minimum wage workers.
> 
> *rolls eyes*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You are not only wrong, you are 110% unequivocally wrong on more levels than the Sears Tower.


----------



## JohnA

I agree with Chuck71 and your attitude of not playing nice. If I ever gave that impression I failed to fully clarify my thoughts. Always fight with absolute commitment to win while displaying cold indifference to the other person. Approach your divorce with the same mind set as a cancer doctor uses to destroy cancel cells. Every cancel cell must be ruthlessly destroyed.


----------



## EleGirl

Chaparral said:


> If JLD hadn't side tracked him he might have saved this marriage. As it is its just a mop up operation and a need to save him and his children. Logically, speaking you neither enable an addict or a cheater. The ONLY thing that ever works with a cheater is tough love and real life. Its been proven here over and over and over ad nauseum. Then every so often we get folks come along, myself included that come through, advise nicing/, plan Aing the cheater back and more familys bite the dust.
> 
> More members are triggered into distraction, and ill will is spread like a plague. This is the worst case I have seen for foul advice, thread jacking and blaming the poor betrayed spouse for the affair and the failed reconciliation.
> 
> Go back and look, I said when JLD started with her inexperienced advice another family was going down the tubes. The lack of humility is apparent. As a matter of fact, I've never seen it worse in my 64 years.


You are out of line in blaming jld for the problems in grid's marriage. This is a thread jack and needs to stop now.


----------



## EleGirl

Grid,

Doing things to make your divorce more contentious only benefits lawyers who make the big bucks stirring the pot.

Some seem to think that your wife filing for divorce automatically makes the divorce contentious. It does not. When there is a divorce, someone has to file to get the divorce started.

Your best bet is to keep things as calm as possible, go to mediation and split assets, debt and custody 50/50. That is the best you will get, so just start with the best settlement.

Most of all, your children deserve two parents who can work together to raise them. If the divorce is used as a tool to punish your wife and extract revenge, you will end up in a situation where it is very hard to work together to raise your children. 

Love you children more than you hate your wife.


----------



## EleGirl

JohnA said:


> I agree with Chuck71 and your attitude of not playing nice. If I ever gave that impression I failed to fully clarify my thoughts. Always fight with absolute commitment to win while displaying cold indifference to the other person. Approach your divorce with the same mind set as a cancer doctor uses to destroy cancel cells. Every cancel cell must be ruthlessly destroyed.


His wife is not a cancer cell. Divorce is not war. 

There is no winning in divorce. Both parties lose. The only question is whether or not they cooperate and lose as little as possible... or if they turn the divorce into war and they both lose as much as possible.


----------



## LongWalk

Grid,

Right now you are in a hellish situation. Hence the nightmares.

But you are getting to the point that things are starting to get better.

Work out. Don't drink. Concentrate on your kids. Treat your STBX like a college roommate with whom you must live for a semester. Don't worry about doing the perfect 180. Just be yourself. Keep your temper. Joke instead of getting mad. 

Take for example thoughts of OM. Well, instead of being mad at him, you should figure that he revealed your wife to be the person that she has become. Without his help, it might have been worse.

Your wife is sensitive enough to perceive the weakness of her romantic fantasies. Your disapproval of OM simply allows her to push back against you with the romance novel porn soup that is splashing between her ears. Once you simply express the "whatever" dispassion in your eyes, she will have to start facing reality.


----------



## turnera

I don't think he should say a word to HER about how he feels about OM. I think he should silently get the guy fired for what he did. And then sit back and let her watch him whine like a little baby.

And IF Mrs Grid IS giving him 50/50, go ahead with mediation. I've been led to believe she is NOT giving him 50/50; therefore he needs a lawyer.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Ignore the posters who want you to continue to be weak.

Very simple. Be a man. 

Ignore the cancerous person WW has become. She is useless to you and not worth a single consideration. Not even worth anger. Nor pity. Indifference.

Love and cherish your kids. Smile all the time around then. If WW is in the room look right through her - she should be a ghost to you - let the kids see that she has NO power over you or your emotions. Keep smiling because the kids make you happy.

Work out. Go to meet ups. Flirt with other women - you don't have to act but it's good to flirt openly.

Do well at your job.

Live well. 

Ignore toxic posters and toxic insects that live in your house.


----------



## gridcom

turnera said:


> I don't think he should say a word to HER about how he feels about OM. I think he should silently get the guy fired for what he did. And then sit back and let her watch him whine like a little baby.
> 
> And IF Mrs Grid IS giving him 50/50, go ahead with mediation. I've been led to believe she is NOT giving him 50/50; therefore he needs a lawyer.


She is telling me she is in agreement with 50/50 debt, 50/50 assets, no spousal support, and I pay the full 26% after FICA of my paycheck. 

This happened tonight. She also agrees to these basic terms right now so we can come up with a temporary separation agreement while we mediate through the long form agreement. 

Ok. Great. My only issue is this: While I am moved out and the long form is still being mediated, under the above basic terms, she leverages me for worse custody under the premise that I left her in the home with the kids who also reside in the home they have been in for the past 8 years. Then she flips the script on me and says "no he only gets the kids every other weekend and on Wednesdays for 2 hours"

This scenario is my worst nightmare. Under no circumstances do I want to only see my kids every other weekend and on Wednesday nights. No. No. No. No.

I am worried that under the temporary agreement, she will not be able to afford to make the bills here, will come at me for more money, I tell her we live to letter of the agreement while we work out the long form, she gets pissed because she cant put gas in her car or cant pay for a new tire or cant pay the plumber for something, and THEN leverages the custody on me.

What can I do to protect myself here? I am definitely calling my thick neck lawyer tomorrow. I would LOVE a scenario where I can move out under the basic terms she's agreed to and still be protected with the long form custody agreement. 

It would be best for me to be out of here ASAP for me, for her , and for the kids. We are butting heads so hard right now. I simply cannot contain my anger. I need some peace so bad. This would also allow her to see her new BF as we would then be separated. 

She's also agreed that he cannot come into our house, ever. We would get it ready to sell and sell it at the end of the school year.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Anger is weakness. You should know that from your negotiations.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Grid, you absolutely should NOT leave your house! SHE should leave if you two are going to separate! She will change her mind about everything you agreed too if she stays there and will end up fighting you for the house and the kids. DO NOT LEAVE!


----------



## LongWalk

Don't leave, unless you have a court approved custody decision.

What is the 26 percent?


----------



## happy as a clam

3Xnocharm said:


> Grid, you absolutely should NOT leave your house! SHE should leave if you two are going to separate! She will change her mind about everything you agreed too if she stays there and will end up fighting you for the house and the kids. DO NOT LEAVE!


THIS. THIS. THIS.

Why are you so h*ll-bent on being the one to leave? This point has been addressed multiple times in this thread with people WHO HAVE BEEN THROUGH THIS advising you over and over NOT to leave.

You are the one who works from home. She will have to be gone 40+ hours per week to find suitable employment. 

Why are you so determined to be the one to leave? I don't get it.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

You work from home, right? Then you should absolutely not leave. Consider this the worst part of your life, living there, grit your teeth, and stick it out, so that YOU are the person who has been home with the kids 24/7 when it comes in front of a judge.


----------



## just got it 55

turnera said:


> You work from home, right? Then you should absolutely not leave. Consider this the worst part of your life, living there, grit your teeth, and stick it out, so that YOU are the person who has been home with the kids 24/7 when it comes in front of a judge.


Only way to play it Grid

Your instinct is correct She will change her mind Remember trust ?

Stay in your home be stronger than her

Clear and Present Detachment

55


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

gridcom said:


> I am definitely calling my thick neck lawyer tomorrow. I would LOVE a scenario where I can move out under the basic terms she's agreed to and still be protected with the long form custody agreement.


Good.
Yes, you are going to find out the hard way mediation sucks. It's why many of us said go the divorce route. Mediation works when things are amicable and your thread proves they are not. You were warned she was going to start being asinine, but you looked at the dollar figure and no alimony first.

We told you she has known, from the start, what she was doing. She knows how important the kids and time are to you, just wait and see how much more things move into her favor. I figure, at some point, you will be mediating alimony vs time with the kids. 

Then, in the end, you'll end up spending nearly as much fighting mediation as you would have letting your lawyer handle this mess.


----------



## farsidejunky

Grid...

I am about to become incredibly unpopular...but here goes...JLD and Dug are dead on about one thing in particular.

Waddafuq are you doing??? Yes, it hurts. Yes, you are watching the life you thought you had go down in flames courtesy of your STBX. Yes, you have every reason to be emotional, hurt, angry...

But you are foolish to think your hurt, anger or emotions will serve you well in this process.

A wise poster, who was banned one too many times for being outspoken in the politics section, used to mentor men in your situation. He had a very simple saying: C.F.D. Cool, Firm, Dispassionate.

Dude, your wife is trying to emotionally wound you. That much is clear. Every time you lose your sh!t; each time you pry for information; when you spend all day in bed nursing your wounds, your wife is achieving exactly what she wants to achieve. 

And you know what? You can't do ANYTHING to make her stop. You do not control anyone but yourself. So stop trying to control that which you can not nor should not, and exert that control over that which you can and should. And do it by being cool, firm and dispassionate.

She buys the OM a gift? You should shrug your shoulders and walk away. She tells you about an encounter with the OM. Shrug your shoulders and walk away. She decides to expand her dating pool to the Circus Midget Posse while filming it? Shrug your shoulders and walk away.

The only reason you hurt is because you still love her and want her to change. Too bad; ain't happening. So you might as well get hot on disciplining your reactions.

Remember:

"I am not okay with x."

"I am sorry you feel that way."

"I see it differently."

Cool, firm, dispassionate.



Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## phillybeffandswiss

Lol.
The only thing that MIGHT make your post unpopular is, you pretending no one has said the same thing before, during or after jld or dug posted.,

Multiple people have told him to get to 50,000 feet, practice indifference and control his emotions.


----------



## gridcom

Grid. 

Cool. Firm. Dispassionate. 

I am the least dispassionate person I've ever met.

I hear you all, but you mean to tell me I have to live with this woman in this little house and watch her have an affair from up close? I have to sit here night after night while she is out with this guy doing who knows what? I'm not going to ask you all 'Do you know how much that will rip me apart?' because I know many of you know how much.

This is unjust. I want to be away from this woman. NOW.

I really cant say anything more about this other than it's simply unacceptable to me. It's unacceptable.


----------



## turnera

phillybeffandswiss said:


> I figure, at some point, you will be mediating alimony vs time with the kids.


I have seen this happen WAY too many times, and AFTER the woman has said she'll play fair. Even my favorite SIL, who I thought was amazing, did it. Never trust ANYONE when it comes to money.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

gridcom said:


> Grid.
> 
> Cool. Firm. Dispassionate.
> 
> I am the least dispassionate person I've ever met.
> 
> I hear you all, but you mean to tell me I have to live with this woman in this little house and watch her have an affair from up close? I have to sit here night after night while she is out with this guy doing who knows what? I'm not going to ask you all 'Do you know how much that will rip me apart?' because I know many of you know how much.
> 
> This is unjust. I want to be away from this woman. NOW.
> 
> I really cant say anything more about this other than it's simply unacceptable to me. It's unacceptable.


Then tell her that SHE needs to find a place to go. SHE is the one doing wrong in this situation, the very LEAST she can do is have enough consideration to leave. Surely she has some family or a close friend she cans stay with until things are ironed out...?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

gridcom said:


> Grid.
> 
> Cool. Firm. Dispassionate.
> 
> I am the least dispassionate person I've ever met.
> 
> I hear you all, but you mean to tell me I have to live with this woman in this little house and watch her have an affair from up close? I have to sit here night after night while she is out with this guy doing who knows what? I'm not going to ask you all 'Do you know how much that will rip me apart?' because I know many of you know how much.
> 
> This is unjust. I want to be away from this woman. NOW.
> 
> I really cant say anything more about this other than it's simply unacceptable to me. It's unacceptable.


People are worried if you leave, it will get worse for custody. You are a man and while it is better, you are still secondary in many judges eyes to a woman, her kids and where they are comfortable. While case by case it is different, you need to talk with your lawyer to see if it is okay


----------



## EleGirl

gridcom said:


> She is telling me she is in agreement with 50/50 debt, 50/50 assets, no spousal support, and I pay the full 26% after FICA of my paycheck.
> 
> This happened tonight. She also agrees to these basic terms right now so we can come up with a temporary separation agreement while we mediate through the long form agreement.
> 
> Ok. Great. My only issue is this: While I am moved out and the long form is still being mediated, under the above basic terms, she leverages me for worse custody under the premise that I left her in the home with the kids who also reside in the home they have been in for the past 8 years. Then she flips the script on me and says "no he only gets the kids every other weekend and on Wednesdays for 2 hours"
> 
> This scenario is my worst nightmare. Under no circumstances do I want to only see my kids every other weekend and on Wednesday nights. No. No. No. No.
> 
> I am worried that under the temporary agreement, she will not be able to afford to make the bills here, will come at me for more money, I tell her we live to letter of the agreement while we work out the long form, she gets pissed because she cant put gas in her car or cant pay for a new tire or cant pay the plumber for something, and THEN leverages the custody on me.
> 
> What can I do to protect myself here? I am definitely calling my thick neck lawyer tomorrow. I would LOVE a scenario where I can move out under the basic terms she's agreed to and still be protected with the long form custody agreement.
> 
> It would be best for me to be out of here ASAP for me, for her , and for the kids. We are butting heads so hard right now. I simply cannot contain my anger. I need some peace so bad. This would also allow her to see her new BF as we would then be separated.
> 
> She's also agreed that he cannot come into our house, ever. We would get it ready to sell and sell it at the end of the school year.


IF the two of you agree on everything but custody, then just use the lawyers for custody.

Do not move out until you have a signed agreement on custody. And tell her that you will not move out until there is such an agreement.
Then you can get a place (or she can) and your children move between the two homes.

There is a temporary solution that works well…


Rent a small apartment. The children stay in the family home. The parents switch back and forth every ¾ days between living in the apartment and the family home. 

The parent who has the children for a 4 day period stays in the family home with the children. The parent who does not have the children stays in the apartment for those 4 days. And you rotate.

This works because:

It’s the least disruptive for the children.

Parents learn the crap that they are about to put on their children with making their children live in two homes. Learning the felling of lack of stability can you both better parents because you will understand how it affects your kids.

.


----------



## EleGirl

turnera said:


> You work from home, right? Then you should absolutely not leave. Consider this the worst part of your life, living there, grit your teeth, and stick it out, so that YOU are the person who has been home with the kids 24/7 when it comes in front of a judge.


Grid,

If you work from your home, the court will favor you staying in the home so you can continue to work.

And I agree that you might be considered the primary care giver.

Talk to your attorney about the child custody and visitation to see what your local judges are most likely to do in your case.


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## JohnA

Grid,

Why is it always you moving out? Why can't she move out. Tell her to move in with OM.


----------



## just got it 55

gridcom said:


> Grid.
> 
> Cool. Firm. Dispassionate.
> 
> I am the least dispassionate person I've ever met.
> 
> I hear you all, but you mean to tell me I have to live with this woman in this little house and watch her have an affair from up close? I have to sit here night after night while she is out with this guy doing who knows what? I'm not going to ask you all 'Do you know how much that will rip me apart?' because I know many of you know how much.
> 
> This is unjust. I want to be away from this woman. NOW.
> 
> I really cant say anything more about this other than it's simply unacceptable to me. It's unacceptable.


This sounds just like the Luvmyjava thread

55


----------



## farsidejunky

gridcom said:


> Grid.
> 
> Cool. Firm. Dispassionate.
> 
> I am the least dispassionate person I've ever met.
> 
> I hear you all, but you mean to tell me I have to live with this woman in this little house and watch her have an affair from up close? I have to sit here night after night while she is out with this guy doing who knows what? I'm not going to ask you all 'Do you know how much that will rip me apart?' because I know many of you know how much.
> 
> This is unjust. I want to be away from this woman. NOW.
> 
> I really cant say anything more about this other than it's simply unacceptable to me. It's unacceptable.


Yup.

Now get your @$$ out now the victim chair and focus on what is important: your girls.

And at your next IC appointment, ask her about coping mechanisms for you to deal with your wife without trying to control her.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Pluto2

There is no reason you cannot get at least 50-50 custody and the girls switch homes on a weekly basis. That is the norm in my area. More courts hare going that route. This will benefit you, the girls and your paycheck. See if you can get her to agree to that-tell her its temporary until the final agreement is worked out and that once the temporary is signed you can each go about finding alternative living arrangements. The longer you keep that kind of temporary custody going, the better chance you have for keeping it permanent. 

And I'm sorry, but I would not advise mediation-it is worthless. Mediators do not represent either party and cannot offer legal advice. There are no sanctions or consequences if the other party lies or misrepresents facts. So if you do not trust TS, don't mediate. If all you want to do is save money on the process you might as well search the net for some standard forms in your state.


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## Evinrude58

So grid, she wants the 26% because she's sure planning on getting gull custody and you getting every other weekend. She wants that child support! She wants a nice paycheck so she won't be in a bind while she boinks the OM. 
Stay in the house, keep working, be stable. You MUST get yourself to the point of not caring, regardless of she goes or stays because she will continue to mind-f*** the heck out of you until you do. She's purposefully pushing your buttons because she thinks eventually you can't take any more and blows a gasket. 
Ignore her, as advised. I'm getting good at it. My ex sends me pics of my kids skiing in Colorado with her rich bf... You think it doesn't hurt that he gets to enjoy my kids while boinking my ex wife? It hurts a lot less when my hot doctor walks by and tells me she loves me. You will have to work at it. Step out for a while if you have to, but don't leave. Take good care of your daughter so she knows who takes care of her. 

Your wife will be gone sooner than you think. Get on creditkarma.com and see if you can find any hidden credit cards.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TeddieG

gridcom said:


> Grid.
> 
> Cool. Firm. Dispassionate.
> 
> I am the least dispassionate person I've ever met.
> 
> I hear you all, but you mean to tell me I have to live with this woman in this little house and watch her have an affair from up close? I have to sit here night after night while she is out with this guy doing who knows what? I'm not going to ask you all 'Do you know how much that will rip me apart?' because I know many of you know how much.
> 
> This is unjust. I want to be away from this woman. NOW.
> 
> I really cant say anything more about this other than it's simply unacceptable to me. It's unacceptable.


Lots of people over long periods of time have done it. But here's the thing, Grid. You want to be out of her presence, out of the space you share with her, and you want her NOT to control how you feel. Won't she do that if you move out and she get custody AND a big child support check and you get the kids every weekends and on Wednesday night? Pick your poison. Put up with a little discomfort now, but if you DO reach an agreement with her on anything, including custody, so you can move out while the divorce is in progress (the two of you can have your lawyers hammer out a final proposal for a decree and just present it to the court for approval) have your lawyer ensure that the agreement you reach is binding. 

Does NY not have separation agreements filed with the court and that can "morph" into final divorce decrees?


----------



## LongWalk

JohnA said:


> Grid,
> 
> Why is it always you moving out? Why can't she move out. Tell her to move in with OM.


Grid,

I know you've been over this before, but John's advice has merit. If Tomato Soup is spends nights at OM's, you need to document it so that if you have a custody battle, you can show that you have been there for your daughters every night while mom has been at another residence.

She is provoking you in the hopes that you will leave and she will gain the advantage in the future arrangements. She has been feeding you fastballs, curve balls, spitters, sliders, knuckleballs and eephus and you are hitting foul balls at best.

Tell her that it's okay if she stays over with OM. You're done. But you have to fake till you make it.

Remember a lot of Tomato Soup's self esteem is based on your failed co-dependent relationship. Once you step back, she will have to find her own way.

Also, remember that in her mind escaping you is a glorious goal. Once there is no wedding ring to forbid other men from trespassing into her pants, she will go forth and you will detach.

Stop letting her dictate the terms of splitting up. She felt bullied in marriage so now she is getting back at you. Allowing her to trick you will mean that you are booking a seat in the victim chair.

Just tell her:

"Tomato Soup,

Since we are divorcing. There is no need for you to limit your social life. What you do outside of the home is your business."


----------



## farsidejunky

LongWalk said:


> Grid,
> 
> I know you've been over this before, but John's advice has merit. If Tomato Soup is spends nights at OM's, you need to document it so that if you have a custody battle, you can show that you have been there for your daughters every night while mom has been at another residence.
> 
> She is provoking you in the hopes that you will leave and she will gain the advantage in the future arrangements. She has been feeding you fastballs, curve balls, spitters, sliders, knuckleballs and eephus and you are hitting foul balls at best.
> 
> Tell her that it's okay if she stays over with OM. You're done. But you have to fake till you make it.
> 
> Remember a lot of Tomato Soup's self esteem is based on your failed co-dependent relationship. Once you step back, she will have to find her own way.
> 
> Also, remember that in her mind escaping you is a glorious goal. Once there is no wedding ring to forbid other men from trespassing into her pants, she will go forth and you will detach.
> 
> Stop letting her dictate the terms of splitting up. She felt bullied in marriage so now she is getting back at you. Allowing her to trick you will mean that you are booking a seat in the victim chair.
> 
> Just tell her:
> 
> "Tomato Soup,
> 
> Since we are divorcing. There is no need for you to limit your social life. What you do outside of the home is your business."


This is perfect.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## gridcom

3Xnocharm said:


> Then tell her that SHE needs to find a place to go. SHE is the one doing wrong in this situation, the very LEAST she can do is have enough consideration to leave. Surely she has some family or a close friend she cans stay with until things are ironed out...?


I have asked her 200X to move out. She will not move out, with or without the girls. Because she needs my money to live. That said, she wants to continue to have the affair. Cake eating. She wants to live here, have me pay for the food and roof, and carry on with another man

She knows it's morally and ethically wrong to do what she is doing. She doesn't care, she's doing it anyway. 

She told me today it "has nothing to do with me"

The nerve


----------



## tom67

gridcom said:


> I have asked her 200X to move out. She will not move out, with or without the girls. Because she needs my money to live. That said, she wants to continue to have the affair. Cake eating. She wants to live here, have me pay for the food and roof, and carry on with another man
> 
> She knows it's morally and ethically wrong to do what she is doing. She doesn't care, she's doing it anyway.
> 
> She told me today it "has nothing to do with me"
> 
> The nerve


Dude 50,000 and heal :banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:
Sigh emasculated males.
Plastic water bottles.


----------



## eric1

Run up debt with the biggest shark of a lawyer you can find. It will be cheaper for you in the long run, it's clear that she doesn't want mediation, she just wants to win.

Play some offense dude


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## lifeistooshort

How often do you travel for work? When you do how long are you typically gone?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

gridcom said:


> I have asked her 200X to move out. She will not move out, with or without the girls. Because she needs my money to live. That said, she wants to continue to have the affair. Cake eating. She wants to live here, have me pay for the food and roof, and carry on with another man
> 
> She knows it's morally and ethically wrong to do what she is doing. She doesn't care, she's doing it anyway.
> 
> She told me today it "has nothing to do with me"
> 
> The nerve


She is not lying about that.

Stop making it about you.

Get out of the victim chair.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## tom67

farsidejunky said:


> She is not lying about that.
> 
> Stop making it about you.
> 
> Get out of the victim chair.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Ugh bad 80s song but it applies here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGNiXGX2nLU


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## cbnero

Well legally she is still your wife, so yes she in entitled to reside there until the divorce. You allowed it to get this far by not taking action before so own some responsibility for your side.

Sucks, no?

Good. Recognize how bad you feel. Now every time you start thinking of backing down remember where that got you and how you feel at this moment.

One foot in front of the other. Keep moving forward.


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## Imovedforthis

Obviously I haven't read all 276 pages but just wanted to reply to your last thing saying you have asked her 200x to move out... 

What if- you just suck it up and help her. Can you financially afford to put her in a small apt and help her with bills? at least for 6 months or so.... Just a thought. She probably won't budge, but either way- FILE FOR DIVORCE. YES she will totally be eating the cake, hell she'll be toting her ****ing cake around, but who cares. It's time to move on dude. Do you really want to torture yourself with this crap for another year on year on year.... Just being real. 

The process of the divorce is looking like the ONLY way you are going to get out of your marriage. (if that's what you want). 
Get those papers going, get a temporary order setup for your children and then YOU move the hell out. Peace. If she wants money- well then tell her she gets what the court will say she gets and until then, SORRY. Gotta pay for the new pad I had to get to get away from you. 
Just walk away. Ya I know, easier said than done. Which is why I have known so many couples who have gone through the divorce process and it wasn't until the near end of it that one of the parties finally budged and moved the hell out.


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## Imovedforthis

Show her you mean business! Get an attorney and start those papers rolling! 
Maybe then she will get a clue.


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## cbnero

Also per others posts about your attitude and playing the victim...

100% correct. Instead of worrying about her and what she is doing, you should be thrilled you still have your kids - every day. You can choose to be negative or enjoy every minute of what you have now. 

She wants to go out with POSOM? Great! More time alone for you and kids. Wish her well. When you look back at your life, what do you want to remember? The good times with the kids? Or fretting over your psycho exwife dating a barista? 

Get positive. Get moving.


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## just got it 55

gridcom said:


> I have asked her 200X to move out. She will not move out, with or without the girls. Because she needs my money to live. That said, she wants to continue to have the affair. Cake eating. She wants to live here, have me pay for the food and roof, and carry on with another man
> 
> She knows it's morally and ethically wrong to do what she is doing. She doesn't care, she's doing it anyway.
> 
> She told me today it "has nothing to do with me"
> 
> The nerve


Grid stop you are 200X away from detachment

Stop engaging with her she's gone

55


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## phillybeffandswiss

gridcom said:


> I have asked her 200X to move out. She will not move out, with or without the girls. Because she needs my money to live. That said, she wants to continue to have the affair. Cake eating. She wants to live here, have me pay for the food and roof, and carry on with another man


Right and this is why I keep harping on you to go for the throat. I have a friend who let his kids get out of state and didn't listen to all of us who paid child support. We told him to fight for 50/50.

He now works overtime and double shifts, where I work certain extra shifts are not over time, JUST to pay child support. He basically funds her mortgage, car and their kids. Oops, their mortgage because she is now married.

Yes, 50/50 makes a HUGE difference.


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## gridcom

lifeistooshort said:


> How often do you travel for work? When you do how long are you typically gone?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This year was an exception, because once this happened I completely stopped traveling. I will travel usually for a total of about 8 days between Jan-April, May through Sept I am gone about 5-6 weekends in that time, and in the fall maybe 1-2 weekends.

I am never gone more than 4 days, and usually it's no more than 3. 

Basically sleep out of my own bed about 20-22X per year


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## gridcom

Just so I am clear, and I will clear this up with my lawyer tomorrow...... but are you saying that if I get 50/50 custody then I don't have to pay child support? Obviously, then she'll go for spousal support, but I would only have to pay that for 2.8 years (new NYS Law based on 13 years of marriage)


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## turnera

If she's only working part time, you will almost certainly have to pay her child support, at least for a time until she becomes 'hireable' for a full-time job.

The reason we're bringing up the 50/50 is only so that you don't end up getting every other weekend.


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## EleGirl

gridcom said:


> Just so I am clear, and I will clear this up with my lawyer tomorrow...... but are you saying that if I get 50/50 custody then I don't have to pay child support? Obviously, then she'll go for spousal support, but I would only have to pay that for 2.8 years (new NYS Law based on 13 years of marriage)


No 50/50 custody does not mean no child support.

Add up both of your salaries. Take the % that your state allocates to child support for 2 kids. Let's say 15%. 

Let's say that you earn 10,000 per month. She earns 5,000. (easy numbers)

Both of you contribute 15% to your child maintenance.. so the court figures that it will take you both $2,250 to jointly support the children. The amount for each of you is prorated according to the amount of time each of you have the children. So at 50/50 custody.. you would each have $1,125 to support your children.

15% you income is 1500. 15% of hers is 750. So you give her 375 so that you both have $1,125.


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## LongWalk

Grid,

It may be that she and OM have discussed their strategy in detail many times. What sort of terms of divorce should she shoot for?

Their goal of a life together may be as a couple who don't live together officially for financial reasons. It is also possible that she alone has the ideas.

Remember she went to a lawyer early on to discuss how to protect herself.

Also, remember that she is good at reading you. She had non make-up it–won't–change–anything–sex for a period of time to gain control of the situation. As soon as she felt secure, she cut off the sex. You talk about the sex as sex is sex and not super lovey dovey, well she clearly wants that sort of emotional intimacy and OM delivers that. JLD wanted you to give her that, but she is wrong in thinking that you had a chance while she was still banging him. 

In conclusion, you are good at reading her, except that you have big blind spots. Your emotional engagement is a big reason for your lack of clarity. You cannot accept her betrayal, although it is a fact. You cannot accept that she may be cunning, although it is apparently her mode of operation at the moment. You cannot accept that the physical affair has probably continued post Dday, although there is no evidence that it has stopped. Wild monkey sex a few times a month may be all that Tomato Soup and her boyfriend need to keep the fires roaring.

Remember that you impulsively leaving to live somewhere else may be a primary goal of hers.
You have been discussing, giving her the house with the condition that OM cannot set foot in it until it is sold. But she may be seeking a way to stay. For all you know, OM may be saving all his money from his extra work at Starbucks and may be scrounging for money from Aunt Kathy to set up a household with Tomato Soup. 

Living on very little maybe their romantic dream.

It may also be that she is looking beyond OM to some other life without either of you. Her planning department has a locked door policy.

Threads to read: Shamwow's, LostLove, BFF

Shamewow,

Loved his cheating wife a lot. He kept loving her while he detached himself from her remorseless heart. Once he detached she began to want him back But she never was willing to own her shxt, so he kept going. In the end he found someone new. Ex cheating wife had to struggle with her alcohol problems. She drifted in and out of relationships. He became the memory of the one really good guy. Super nostalgia and regret.

Too bad Conrad is not here. With one or two sentences he could reach people.

"How's that working for you?" was one of his lines, I think.


----------



## gridcom

LongWalk said:


> Grid,
> 
> It may be that she and OM have discussed their strategy in detail many times. What sort of terms of divorce should she shoot for?
> 
> Their goal of a life together may be as a couple who don't live together officially for financial reasons. It is also possible that she alone has the ideas.
> 
> Remember she went to a lawyer early on to discuss how to protect herself.
> 
> Also, remember that she is good at reading you. She had non make-up it–won't–change–anything–sex for a period of time to gain control of the situation. As soon as she felt secure, she cut off the sex. You talk about the sex as sex is sex and not super lovey dovey, well she clearly wants that sort of emotional intimacy and OM delivers that.
> 
> In conclusion, you are good at reading her, except that you have big blind spots. Your emotional engagement is a big reason for your lack of clarity. You cannot accept her betrayal, although it is a fact. You cannot accept that she may be cunning, although it is apparently her mode of operation at the moment. You cannot accept that the physical affair has probably continued post Dday, although there is no evidence that it has stopped. Wild monkey sex a few times a month may be all that Tomato Soup and her boyfriend need to keep the fires roaring.
> 
> Remember that you impulsively leaving to live somewhere else may be a primary goal of hers.
> You have been discussing, giving her the house with the condition that OM cannot set foot in it until it is sold. But she may be seeking a way to stay. For all you know, OM may be saving all his money from his extra work at Starbucks and may be scrounging for money from Aunt Kathy to set up a household with Tomato Soup.
> 
> Living on very little maybe their romantic dream.
> 
> It may also be that she is looking beyond OM to some other life without either of you. Her planning department has a locked door policy.
> 
> Threads to read: Shamwow's, LostLove, BFF
> 
> Shamewow,
> 
> Loved his cheating wife a lot. He kept loving her while he detached himself from her remorseless heart. Once he detached she began to want him back But she never was willing to own her shxt, so he kept going. In the end he found someone new. Ex cheating wife had to struggle with her alcohol problems. She drifted in and out of relationships. He became the memory of the one really good guy. Super nostalgia and regret.
> 
> Too bad Conrad is not here. With one or two sentences he could reach people.
> 
> "How's that working for you?" was one of his lines, I think.


Oh THE DREAMS. This one I cannot honestly tell. It's shameful, even anonymously, even for "just a dream". 

Whatever, I know that it's a clear sign that things just aren't normal in my mind right now. It's a shame that I've been "damaged", and as much as I try to carry on, the clearest evidence comes in my sleep.

My mother and I spoke late last night. She was here for XMas eve and also the Friday prior (the 18th), and she saw us getting along well. It convinced her that things were getting better and things were going to be alright. And she was operating under that premise. I kept telling her "No". I told her I didn't know why my wife was being nice to me, but I wasn't biting. And my mother was angry at me. She just wants to see everyone happy, including my wife. My mother LOVES my wife, so she feels betrayed too. I remember when I told my mother that she cheated on me. I heard a groan over the phone like my words literally punched her in the stomach. 

Last night, I spoke to her and she was so angry. Angry like I cannot possibly talk to her honestly anymore. She's 70 years old and it's taking a toll on her.

She told me that it was important that I syphon the good out of this, and I really hit the pillow last night thinking "what good"?

And here it is. There is one good thing that will come out of this. Whoever my next partner is will get the benefits of a better me. Without this event in my life, I would have never REALLY gotten the message of my shortcomings as a partner. How I did not give enough emotionally. How I did not receive enough emotionally. How I let my let my wife closer to me than anyone, but not ALL THE WAY close. Not "hold me tight and tell me your deepest fears and worries" close. 

This robbed my wife of an emotional bond at the deepest level. This is not something that she's ever mentioned. But her issue with me, the one that she has mentioned, is really born from my emotional guard. I was loving, but not loving on the level that she needed.

And it wont happen again. I've learned so much from this experience. Almost 6 months of learning about relationships that they don't reach you in a school. That you can only learn from the examples that you see firsthand, namely your own parents. I cannot deny that my own children will benefit from seeing two parents moving forward correcting the mistakes they made in the marriage and applying new practices in the next. 

I wanted to keep the scars and the hurt and the memories and the IMPACT of this and move forward being a better husband with my wife. I really truly felt that it could be wonderful again, more wonderful than it ever was. I am, still, so motivated to be a better partner. I was rejected, twice.

Retrouvaille was such a great experience for me. Marriage counseling and individual counseling was long overdue. Even though the marriage is ending, there is the good I can't take from it. The "Love Languages" test. _It's like a branding iron that has seared the message into my deepest soul._

And yes, before the pitchforks come out, she cheated and has acted horribly and without any sense of respect or fairness or honor or dignity since. Someday, she will see clearly how horrible she has been. Someday, she will see how corrupted her heart was by her "trance like" affection for another.

This isn't about that. This is about waking up today and looking at the day shine brighter out the window and moving on


----------



## jld

gridcom said:


> Oh THE DREAMS. This one I cannot honestly tell. It's shameful, even anonymously, even for "just a dream".
> 
> Whatever, I know that it's a clear sign that things just aren't normal in my mind right now. It's a shame that I've been "damaged", and as much as I try to carry on, the clearest evidence comes in my sleep.
> 
> My mother and I spoke late last night. She was here for XMas eve and also the Friday prior (the 18th), and she saw us getting along well. It convinced her that things were getting better and things were going to be alright. And she was operating under that premise. I kept telling her "No". I told her I didn't know why my wife was being nice to me, but I wasn't biting. And my mother was angry at me. She just wants to see everyone happy, including my wife. My mother LOVES my wife, so she feels betrayed too. I remember when I told my mother that she cheated on me. I heard a groan over the phone like my words literally punched her in the stomach.
> 
> Last night, I spoke to her and she was so angry. Angry like I cannot possibly talk to her honestly anymore. She's 70 years old and it's taking a toll on her.
> 
> She told me that it was important that I syphon the good out of this, and I really hit the pillow last night thinking "what good"?
> 
> *And here it is. There is one good thing that will come out of this. Whoever my next partner is will get the benefits of a better me. Without this event in my life, I would have never REALLY gotten the message of my shortcomings as a partner. How I did not give enough emotionally. How I did not receive enough emotionally. How I let my let my wife closer to me than anyone, but not ALL THE WAY close. Not "hold me tight and tell me your deepest fears and worries" close.
> 
> This robbed my wife of an emotional bond at the deepest level. This is not something that she's ever mentioned. But her issue with me, the one that she has mentioned, is really born from my emotional guard. I was loving, but not loving on the level that she needed.
> 
> And it wont happen again. I've learned so much from this experience. Almost 6 months of learning about relationships that they don't reach you in a school. That you can only learn from the examples that you see firsthand, namely your own parents. I cannot deny that my own children will benefit from seeing two parents moving forward correcting the mistakes they made in the marriage and applying new practices in the next. It's like a branding iron that has seared the message into my deepest soul.
> 
> I wanted to keep the scars and the hurt and the memories and the IMPACT of this and move forward being a better husband with my wife. I really truly felt that it could be wonderful again, more wonderful than it ever was. I am, still, so motivated to be a better partner. I was rejected, twice.
> 
> Retrouvaille was such a great experience for me. Marriage counseling and individual counseling was long overdue. Even though the marriage is ending, there is the good I can't take from it. The "Love Languages" test. *
> 
> And yes, before the pitchforks come out, she cheated and has acted horribly and without any sense of respect or fairness or honor or dignity since. Someday, she will see clearly how horrible she has been. Someday, she will see how corrupted her heart was by her "trance like" affection for another.
> 
> This isn't about that. This is about waking up today and looking at the day shine brighter out the window and moving on


The bolded shows a lot of maturity, grid.

I always thought the only hope was for you to improve your character and start meeting your wife's emotional needs. Sadly, it seems it may be too late for you and your wife. Your heart has hardened, and hers did long ago.

But as you said, the next woman will benefit. And maybe you and your wife will have a massive heart thaw and really work on your issues, mainly by being as honest as possible with yourselves. That could restore your marriage.

Be wary of your pride, grid. That is a stumbling block for nearly every human.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pluto2

Pride ... yes EVERY human has that stumbling block. as we've seen.

Grid, its good that you are being self-reflective. One of the hardest lessons I learned in my D was that my endless efforts to "help" my H actually made the situations worse, but being co-dependent that just didn't make sense to me at first. What I learned was that I couldn't fix things, I couldn't make the marriage, or him any better. I could set healthy boundaries and stick to them. Healthy relationships take two people who are willing to work together.

So now you are more familiar with the efforts you can control and the baggage you carry. Try to remember you cannot correct or carry her baggage without harming yourself in the process.


----------



## happy as a clam

Pluto2 said:


> So now you are more familiar with the efforts you can control and the baggage you carry. *Try to remember you cannot correct or carry her baggage without harming yourself in the process.*


QFT. :iagree: :iagree: :iagree:


----------



## happyman64

No matter how you feel you have been served divorce papers.

Get the consultation of an attorney and let the attorney guide you.

No matter whether mediation or full divorce proceedings let the professional guide you on all matters:

Vacating the home.
Custody.
Child Support.
Alimony.

Who cares what your wife says to you or promises you now. She is a proven liar.

And guess what big boy? Cool. Calm. Dispassionate will see you through this.

Turn on the ice.

Revenge is a dish best served cold.

The next woman in your life will see what an idiot your ExW was and scoop you up.

But before that get this Divorce done. Focus on your issues.
And be the best man and father you can be.

The rest will fall into place the less you fight it and the more you embrace it.

Weird concept but it works.

HM


----------



## lifeistooshort

It is unfortunate that she isn't open to your self reflection and personal changes. I suppose it goes to show how once a woman detaches she's usually done. 

Even more unfortunate that she's wrapped up with a bum. Personally i understand why she was angry and detached but I don't understand her infatuation with a bum at this point in her life, and I think I'm close to her age. And I also have kids. Without said bum she could evaluate this marriage on its own merits.

As for her not communicating what she lacked she may not have known what she was missing, only that she was unhappy. A lot of people don't communicate when they don't know what's wrong because they feel stupid, especially if they feel like they should be happy. 

I think for all of your faults you have greater capacity for self reflection then she does, at least from what you've said. My parents were like this, my dad had capacity for self reflection. .. my mom, none. 

And I know it's weird that she's being nice but what are the options? For her to be nasty? That benefits nobody. 

You are at different points in the stages of grief; you at at the anger phase and she h as long been at acceptance. 

Don't worry about stupidity like whether she spent 10 bucks on a gift for the bum. Things like that will keep you from making good decisions about things that matter, like your divorce agreement.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

Are you carrying a copy of the 180 with you?

Did you ever google people that cannot say they are sorry?


----------



## gridcom

lifeistooshort said:


> Without said bum she could evaluate this marriage on its own merits.


I've said this until I am blue in the face. Her single biggest mistake, right there


----------



## Pluto2

gridcom said:


> I've said this until I am blue in the face. Her single biggest mistake, right there


I don't see them as separate issues. Her willingness to seek comfort outside the marriage is the problem with the relationship.


----------



## Chuck71

Grid.... do you recall a post I made, where the H tried to be as amicable as possible and ended up renting a place on the "bad side of town" while she got the kids 100% (bogus DV allegation), CS, alimony (enough to cover mortgage and not work), family medical coverage, and her AP living in the home with his kids? Since he drinks daily now, she allows him supervised visitation, in his home (well it was his home, he pays for it while she lays up with AP... who BTW is present every visitation). You need to realize... this could very well be you if you move out and do mediation.

TS is exactly the type to conjure this up and lead you by your "johnsons" into doing this. It's time to turn the tables.... go for the jugular. 180..... ice cold..... fear nothing..... what will be, will be


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## LongWalk

Very good post, Grid. You are climbing out of a deep well.

JLD is right that pride is negative in this process. However, there is also self respect. They are closely related and intermingled. A policeman who is making a difficult arrest of a minor criminal gets a gob of spit in the face and a slew of disgusting words. Self respect requires that he see the arrest through with dignity. Pride might make him tighten the handcuffs excessively while pressing the criminals face hard into the concrete. The criminal must pay for the disrespect.

Your wife has hurt you and she makes it worse by disrespecting you repeatedly.

You took your wife in a misguided attempt to initiated hysterical bonding. Maybe she felt it was like rape. At the very least she felt a million miles away from you. She looks for the angry Grid, the cruel Grid whenever she justifies whatever more she is doing in her continued abuse. Men and women both know how much infidelity hurts. When cheaters get caught in the act, the man who is in the wrong immediately loses his erection. If he is the third party, there is a good change he will run away rather than face the angry husband even if he might be the better fighter. This is all instinctual. Tomato Soup has thought a lot about what is hurting you. She has elected to keep doing it. Her love for OM is a lot brighter and hotter because it is hurting you. Without your pain and sorrow, I suspect her passion for him might die out. This is nothing I am certain of but it is a real possibility.

You don't want to have a TeddieG situation in which the dysfunctional cheater bounces back and forth.

Do what GutPunch or Shamwow would do. Detach. Take the high ground. Don't any unnecessarily cruel things to punish her. The job of punishment is hers if she chooses to take up the task. It is uncertain that she ever will.

In all practical matters you should be hard nosed. Fifty-fifty custody. Property split down the middle. No sentimentality about economic hardship for her. She chose it.

In the emotional sphere use JLD as a guide. Be emotionally strong. Take her disrespect and keep your mouth shut. Don't lose your temper. Don't be craven in anyway. But you can tell her certain things when you know them to be true. She has been a crappy mother recently. If she is good with your daughters, praise her in simple terms, without being condescending.

Now that you are on the way up, this is your chance to show grace under pressure. Once you are at 50,000 feet, your wife is going to look up and wonder how you learned to fly. There is some chance she will try to join you. You cannot live on this hope, but you can save it for a time.

Don't let Tomato Soup goad you into antipathy.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Meh...
Pride gets a bad rap, have it and respect yourself. Pride is not always negative in this process. Know when you need pride and when to compromise. Pride is a good thing when it keeps you from eating her sh%$t sandwiches. Remember 50,000 feet doesn't mean you swallow your pride or self respect. What you need to do is learn how to quit watching what she does and only express your displeasure here on this website.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Grid,

I see a lot of the good TAMers here stating that 50/50 custody is becoming the norm. But talk to your lawyer about that.

It's not the norm where I live. 50/50 only happens during the summer, but it goes back to 'every other weekend' during the school months. In my county, the courts don't like the kids bouncing back and forth every week during school. The courts want stability for the kids.

Bear in mind it's highly likely that one parent will move out of the school district in which you are currently reside, in the upcoming years.

So, get an honest opinion (if there is such a thing) from your lawyer on what your chances are for joint 50/50 custody. 

You may be able to leverage alimony with parenting time. Which is OK, because you know that alimony is temporary (and tax deductible). It's also highly likely that TS will co-habitate with some fella within a year or two, which will get you off the alimony hook.


----------



## gridcom

lifeistooshort said:


> And I know it's weird that she's being nice but what are the options? For her to be nasty? That benefits nobody.


It makes zero sense at this point for her to come into my space, tell me what she's cooking, how she's feeling, what's on her mind. I don't expect her to be nasty, I expect her to treat me like she stabbed me in the back. Which means, you know, try to stay away.


----------



## Chuck71

Pride is where you refuse the advances of another woman when you are married.

Pride is when the cashier gives you $20 too much in change and you notify the cashier.

Pride is when you are adamant about something being BS (I was dead set against Cheaterville) but listening to

other people's reasoning and admitting, you / I were / was wrong.

A certain poster may especially consider this.

Pride is an element of our "self" as unique as self respect. Or as mom's used to say -you were raised better than that-


----------



## 3Xnocharm

gridcom said:


> It makes zero sense at this point for her to come into my space, tell me what she's cooking, how she's feeling, what's on her mind. I don't expect her to be nasty, I expect her to treat me like she stabbed me in the back. Which means, you know, try to stay away.


So then TELL HER that. No more chit chat, nicey nice crap. The only time you need to speak is in regards to your children or your divorce. Tell her to leave you alone otherwise. And follow through...leave the room if she wont leave you be, shut her down.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

ThreeStrikes said:


> Grid,
> 
> I see a lot of the good TAMers here stating that 50/50 custody is becoming the norm. But talk to your lawyer about that.


It's more convoluted, but when I say 50/50 there is still primary and non-custodial. So, he may end up with non-custodial, but she'll have to trade off between tax years claims, every year holidays and she can't enforce this crap of every other weekend or less she wants now. Basically, in 50/50, he can get less child support paid out by a ton and see his kids every weekend. Heck, with her being part-time, he might end up with primary since his income pays the mortgage, he works from the house and she is going to need full time, plus day care when she is forced to go full time. It's why I keep harping on letting his lawyer do the job. These are things a judge can see and address while she can avoid consequences in mediation.


----------



## Chuck71

gridcom said:


> It makes zero sense at this point for her to come into my space, tell me what she's cooking, how she's feeling, what's on her mind. I don't expect her to be nasty, I expect her to treat me like she stabbed me in the back. Which means, you know, try to stay away.


As 3Strikes stated.... run the 50 / 50. A father asking for 75 / 25 is like me being in a wreck where it

was not my fault and the other person's ins. company providing me a rental car, as being I drive a 

1985 Ford Escort but asking for a 1985 Corvette to drive while it is fixed.

After the 50 / 50 is agreed to..... guess who will be watching the girls more..... you. Your XW will be 

strapped financially and instead of paying for a baby sitter, she will expect you to.

Document the possible 75 / 25 time with kids. At least get this for six months.

Drag her arse to court to officially get 75 / 25.

Patience Padawan.... patience. One day you will too.... be a Jedi.


----------



## lifeistooshort

gridcom said:


> It makes zero sense at this point for her to come into my space, tell me what she's cooking, how she's feeling, what's on her mind. I don't expect her to be nasty, I expect her to treat me like she stabbed me in the back. Which means, you know, try to stay away.


You can drive a lot of that with your reactions. Acknowledge her and little else.

Her: I'm making spaghetti. 

You: ok..

Her: I'm feeling good today. 

You: good for you. 

Her: please pay attention to me so I get an ego boost out of knowing I get to you. 

You: sorry, no can do. You simply aren't that important. 

You can't change another's behavior, you can only change your reaction to it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pluto2

phillybeffandswiss said:


> It's more convoluted, but when I say 50/50 there is still primary and non-custodial. So, he may end up with non-custodial, but she'll have to trade off between tax years claims, every year holidays and she can't enforce this crap of every other weekend or less she wants now. Basically, in 50/50, he can get less child support paid out by a ton and see his kids every weekend. Heck, with her being part-time, he might end up with primary since his income pays the mortgage, he works from the house and she is going to need full time, plus day care when she is forced to go full time. It's why I keep harping on letting his lawyer do the job. These are things a judge can see and address while she can avoid consequences in mediation.


NY figures support a bit differently than some states, the non-custodial parent is obligated to pay support. The courts look at the actual parenting time, not just physical custody. If the physical time with the kids is evenly divided 50-50, the the party with a greater income is considered non-custodial. If Grid gets more than 50% of parenting time, he's the custodial parent. So the time when he's home working and the kids are home from school all count.

I guess every locality is a bit different, but of the divorced couples I know down here in VA, only ones who don't have a 50-50 custody arrangement are the ones where one parent moved out of town.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

gridcom said:


> It makes zero sense at this point for her to come into my space, tell me what she's cooking, how she's feeling, what's on her mind. I don't expect her to be nasty, I expect her to treat me like she stabbed me in the back. Which means, you know, try to stay away.


Why don't you get it? I get it. When you get to a true indifference you will too. When you reward bad behavior, it teaches people to continue acting in the same fashion. 

She has done the EXACT same thing to you since this thread started. Why? You constantly reward bad behavior. Yes, you blow up now and again, but then you feel guilty and go right back to catering to her whims. She knows nothing different. All she knows is you'll get very angry, apologizes, work on the marriage and she gets to go party. She has money to spend, gets to go out on dates, has a permanent baby sitter, has a roof over her head, spends marital money on OM, works part time, barely contributes to the bills and is in new love. 

It is her way of life now and you feed into the mess. It's why you do a 180 hard, which Thor and bandit suggested back in July. Right now she thinks you are still friends, she needs to learn you can be amicable and cordial, but you are co-parents not friends.


----------



## Chuck71

The very moment she realizes you are detaching.... successfully....

bet the farm she will throw her snatch in your face

It......is.......clockwork


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Chuck71 said:


> The very moment she realizes you are detaching.... successfully....
> 
> bet the farm she will throw her snatch in your face
> 
> It......is.......clockwork


The hoover deluxe.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Naw, that's coming when he stands up to her offer and fights to get sole or 50/50 custody. She's already done the sex thing to keep him off balance.


----------



## Keepin-my-head-up

jld said:


> Like Starbucks is going to care.
> 
> And what is a pit bull lawyer going to do? She probably has his depression documented. How is that going to get him more than 50/50?
> 
> It is really a matter of dividing the debt, as there do not seem to be many assets. 50/50 custody is pretty standard now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Got to agree,

Starbucks will just tell the kid to not bring the drama around the store.

Truth is they probably already know


----------



## lifeistooshort

Keepin-my-head-up said:


> Got to agree,
> 
> Starbucks will just tell the kid to not bring the drama around the store.
> 
> Truth is they probably already know


Seems to me that if places like Starbucks fired every employee that was acting stupid in their personal life they'd have a hard time keeping staff.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

gridcom said:


> How would she have "my depression documented"? Because I laid in bed all day for one day? I have 16 days off. So, I laid in bed all day one day. All of a sudden I'm unfit? That's nonsense. Maybe I just laid in bed all day because sometimes you just want to lay in bed all day and do nothing.


Don't get baited dude, it's another passive aggressive insult because you aren't listening. Practice the 180 and vent here on the website.


----------



## Chaparral

gridcom said:


> It makes zero sense at this point for her to come into my space, tell me what she's cooking, how she's feeling, what's on her mind. I don't expect her to be nasty, I expect her to treat me like she stabbed me in the back. Which means, you know, try to stay away.


Generally, they think you're going to be great friends after the divorce. Heck, you might be able to double date.

YOUR WIFE HAS SERIOUS PSYCHOLOGICAL ISSUES. PROBABLY FAMILY OF ORIGIN ISSUES. ITS WHY SHE CANT APOLOGIZE!

This is why you do exactly as the 180 says. She fired you, the examples you give are no longer your concern, let her know this. As in, "You fired me, that's no longer my concern." Her Comeback. You say, "I'm sorry you feel that way." No more no less NO EMOTION WITH HER AT ALL. Anything else is an epic fail. Save all your emotion and home time doing your thing and your kids.


----------



## JohnA

Grid,

I am telling you something I told a friend of mine. When she talks to you about anything except the kids, turn the subject back to the kids and then excusses yourself. Remember @Satya advise: diplomatic and polite. 

Going forward when she tries to talk with you about non-custodian matters suggest she discuss with posm. "I think this might be a better matter to discuss with posm". If she tries the friendship card counter with the ally card in regards to your children only. Remember an ally only cares that the other person fulfills the obligation of the agreed common cause. 

Look, France is a great ally of the United States. But, they are lousy friends. They will be with us 100% on treaty obligations, the rest - nothing. Learn to be more French in your relationship with your WS.


----------



## happy as a clam

phillybeffandswiss said:


> It's why I keep harping on letting his lawyer do the job. *These are things a judge can see and address while she can avoid consequences in mediation.*


This. Absof*ckinglutely. 

The way things are going with Tomato Soup, you will get a MUCH more fair deal from a judge. AS LONG AS YOU STAY PUT IN YOUR HOUSE. If you leave, which is what SHE wants, all bets are off.

Mediation is a joke. Tens upon tens of thousands of wasted dollars later, I can tell you it ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT WORK unless BOTH parties are amicable.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

If you end up the weekend dad, you're basically screwed. You become the babysitter so she can go out and date while you are unable to meet women. Right now you are not thinking about dating but 6 months from now it may be important.

Tomato Soup is being nice but that is part of a long term pattern in your relationship. She was in love with OM for a year and you did not notice. She was careful to be nice back then as well. I will play devil's advocate.

Be hard in fighting for the best terms in divorce but do it through your lawyer. Stop negotiating with her at home. She is running circles round you. If you hadn't found TAM, you'd probably have moved out and been in dire straights.

Be nice in your striving to detach. If she sulks or acts up, ignore her. If she is polite, kind and sneaky, look her in the eyes and engage her. As a general rule always give her limited replies. You don't have to be sullen or mean. Listen to her carefully. Pause before answering. Give her JLD kindness and sincerity but iron boundaries.

When you don't understand her motives just diplomatically extract yourself.

"You want to xxxx and you would like me to yyyy so that zzzz. Okay, let me think about that and get back to you."

You can come hear and relate the exchange to search for the best response.

I presume you are no longer tracking her phone? Is so, you need to stop and concentrate on detaching.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

I was a weekend dad, that's still better than what she is trying to give you. You fight to see your kids every day, then you let the court decide what you'll get. Don't let ANYONE convince you depression, anger or any other crap will prevent you from 50/50 let alone full custody. No one here KNOWS what you'll get, but anyone that tells you not to fight or disparages your attempt is not helping you.


----------



## just got it 55

Clear & Present Detachment Grid

Just start with that

55


----------



## Thundarr

Is this thread and the discussion therapeutic for you Gridcom? I can see how it might be a distraction from the turmoil you're going through IRL. There are some simple truths though that have been pointed out from day one of this thread.

- Your wife checked out of the marriage. I think she checked out before the affair but it doesn't matter any more. You still only have one choice.
- She isn't willing to reconcile or at least isn't willing to accept the wrong in her part. It doesn't matter. You still only have one choice.
- You've been treated like crap for a while. Maybe this is due to her resentment or maybe it's a history re-write but that doesn't matter now. You still have only one choice.
- There is too much water under the bridge. She could have a change of heart but that doesn't matter now. You still only have one choice.
- You can learn from this.


----------



## TeddieG

Thundarr said:


> Is this thread and the discussion therapeutic for you Gridcom? I can see how it might be a distraction from the turmoil you're going through IRL. There are some simple truths though that have been pointed out from day one of this thread.
> 
> - Your wife checked out of the marriage. I think she checked out before the affair but it doesn't matter any more. You still only have one choice.
> - She isn't willing to reconcile or at least isn't willing to accept the wrong in her part. It doesn't matter. You still only have one choice.
> - You've been treated like crap for a while. Maybe this is due to her resentment or maybe it's a history re-write but that doesn't matter now. You still have only one choice.
> - There is too much water under the bridge. She could have a change of heart but that doesn't matter now. You still only have one choice.
> - You can learn from this.


It has been a little over a year since it all broke loose, and that's about how long it took me to learn to detach. Well, now that I check, it is closer to a year and a half. You're wanting to and needing to detach, ready to fully do it, but you're having a hard time with it because the two of you still live together. At about 9 months after the infidelity confession and h's moveout, I got to the point of feeling the anger you're feeling now, Grid. I could see the possibility of moving out of my house in a safe neighborhood with nice neighbors and a garage, and envisioned myself as a single woman living in a crappy apartment complex with my car out in the open and subject to break-ins, loud neighbors, no privacy . . . I got mad, really mad. But it propelled me to learn to do just what you're being advised to do here, only no one put in the terms, the very explicit terms, that they are put in here. I had found forums about detaching, and setting boundaries, but until I came here I got no specific instruction. 

I wish I'd known earlier not to talk about the relationship with him; it didn't hurt anything because i rarely did, but i DO remember, and this may be an issue for you, that I felt it was important to let him know I was open to reconciliation and the door was open and the porchlight was on. And I often got frustrated when he would come home, leave again, and not show any gratitude for the fact that after all he had done, all he had put at risk (including himself), and the damage he done, the door was open and the porchlight was on. 

I did finally hear him say, as I've shared before, in April, that the issues of his meltdown and betrayal had nothing to do with me, and in June/July he was very apologetic and beginning to show remorse for all he had done. 

But it didn't stick. I finally really achieved detachment from him on the way back from my mother's funeral; he was all happy and looking forward to reuniting with his OW since they'd been in touch the day of the funeral, and I just didn't talk to him in the 8-hour drive. Just didn't. 

Your sbtxw is being far more stealthy about her time with her OM and not doing it right under your nose and in your face (based on what you've said or not said). But I can see how the stupid romantic poetry book bought for him on your dime would be a trigger. But there will always be triggers. It is hard to buy time and back and back up and catch your breath when you see her everyday. Rmember on Blacksmith's thread when he would bring up things from the past and the betrayal and posters would tell him to stop, it was counterproductive? The only definition of "productive" is what keeps you from interacting with her and getting upset and wandering into the minefields of triggers. 

I agree with forgetting the mediation, forget about an agreement with her worked out between the two of you, and let the lawyer handle it for you. You need to feel the process in motion and feel things are moving in SOME general direction, moving forward even if ever so slowly. It will help lead you out of the situation of living with her and will lead you to a healthier emotional place. 

Hang in.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Grid, its been a long while since I've been on this thread. I just wanted to say... So sorry this fell apart. Such a tragedy. It is by far one of the worst emotional trauma's that can be experienced in marriage. I feel for your girls and am glad you are fighting to give them the best regardless of circumstances. Hoping you get solidly back on your feet. All the best to you.


----------



## Evinrude58

What I hate is that you've had no choice in this all along, but most likely you're going to get screwed.
I think the fact that you work at home is a super good thing for you. I would make sure infidelity is on the paperwork for reason for filing for divorce. I would also do everything I could to fight for at least 50/50, and preferably full custody. Your wife will try to use your kids in court to get money out of you. She says she doesn't want alimony. She also says they only had sex once...👀

You are doomed to be unhappy until you accept and mive forward. I think acceptance is close at hand for you. Neither of us will be able to completely put our exes out of our lives completely, and that totally sucks. But, moving toward indifference is my goal. I still haven't got there, or to forgiveness yet. Don't know if I ever can. 
I think when you get the financial side figured out and get divorced. You will feel a lot better. Don't expect to see her self-destruct for a while. There are lots of guys out there for her to get to pay her bills.
Just try to keep as much of your hard earned money as you can. You'll take care of your kids with it. She will use it for herself and for looking good while chasing men.
She will likely never be remorseful. It's obvious she has made you the bad guy in her mind. My ex is nice to me, now, at times. Just because she knows what she has done and has guilt. Your wife likely has lots of guilt. Don't let yourself confuse it with remorse. Two different emotions... She's covered the guilt by making you a monster.

Remember this while you detach.

Btw, the gift for the OM while she is married, living with you, in front if you is just disgusting to me. Sorry....
This stuff will definitely help you detach, though. Just remember all that crap when or if she comes back wanting your forgiveness. Give her the forgiveness, not your time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lilac23

gridcom said:


> I have asked her 200X to move out. She will not move out, with or without the girls. Because she needs my money to live. That said, she wants to continue to have the affair. Cake eating. She wants to live here, have me pay for the food and roof, and carry on with another man
> 
> She knows it's morally and ethically wrong to do what she is doing. She doesn't care, she's doing it anyway.
> 
> She told me today it "has nothing to do with me"
> 
> The nerve


:rofl: :wtf: :tool:


----------



## Lilac23

gridcom said:


> Just so I am clear, and I will clear this up with my lawyer tomorrow...... but are you saying that if I get 50/50 custody then I don't have to pay child support? Obviously, then she'll go for spousal support, but I would only have to pay that for 2.8 years (new NYS Law based on 13 years of marriage)


Not always, depends on the state. Sometimes for each additional night you have the children, you receive a reduction too.


----------



## Lilac23

gridcom said:


> She told me that it was important that I syphon the good out of this, and I really hit the pillow last night thinking "what good"?
> 
> And here it is. There is one good thing that will come out of this. Whoever my next partner is will get the benefits of a better me. Without this event in my life, I would have never REALLY gotten the message of my shortcomings as a partner. How I did not give enough emotionally. How I did not receive enough emotionally. How I let my let my wife closer to me than anyone, but not ALL THE WAY close. Not "hold me tight and tell me your deepest fears and worries" close.
> 
> This robbed my wife of an emotional bond at the deepest level. This is not something that she's ever mentioned. But her issue with me, the one that she has mentioned, is really born from my emotional guard. I was loving, but not loving on the level that she needed.
> 
> And it wont happen again. I've learned so much from this experience. Almost 6 months of learning about relationships that they don't reach you in a school. That you can only learn from the examples that you see firsthand, namely your own parents. I cannot deny that my own children will benefit from seeing two parents moving forward correcting the mistakes they made in the marriage and applying new practices in the next.
> 
> I wanted to keep the scars and the hurt and the memories and the IMPACT of this and move forward being a better husband with my wife. I really truly felt that it could be wonderful again, more wonderful than it ever was. I am, still, so motivated to be a better partner. I was rejected, twice.
> 
> Retrouvaille was such a great experience for me. Marriage counseling and individual counseling was long overdue. Even though the marriage is ending, there is the good I can't take from it. The "Love Languages" test. _It's like a branding iron that has seared the message into my deepest soul._
> 
> And yes, before the pitchforks come out, she cheated and has acted horribly and without any sense of respect or fairness or honor or dignity since. Someday, she will see clearly how horrible she has been. Someday, she will see how corrupted her heart was by her "trance like" affection for another.
> 
> This isn't about that. This is about waking up today and looking at the day shine brighter out the window and moving on


_You_ will also get a better _you_ too, so will your children. You will know what you deserve and not accept any less. It doesn't even matter right now about your next partner, just you and the kids. Work on yourself and love yourself, the rest will work itself out.


----------



## Lilac23

gridcom said:


> It makes zero sense at this point for her to come into my space, tell me what she's cooking, how she's feeling, what's on her mind. I don't expect her to be nasty, I expect her to treat me like she stabbed me in the back. Which means, you know, try to stay away.


Next time try saying 'it has nothing to do with me anymore'. Childish, yes, but it may help get your point across.


----------



## TeddieG

Lilac23 said:


> _You_ will also get a better _you_ too, so will your children. You will know what you deserve and not accept any less. It doesn't even matter right now about your next partner, just you and the kids. Work on yourself and love yourself, the rest will work itself out.


One of the bittersweet issues for me, when h made his final choice to divorce and marry OW, after 7 years of being on the fence about it, was that this experience HAS changed me, improved me, made me stronger, made set boundaries and not let work run all over me. And it would have been nice for both of us to share the benefit of having had this experience temper and improve us. But h is being nice, sort of, in little spurts (I think he can only text me so many times before the guilt and the regret kick in), and it is all because he can't handle the vulnerability of remorse. Methinks the same is true of Grid's wife. Now matter how Grid might try to make himself able to, or is truly authentically able to naturally, show kindness in the eventuality of that need for vulnerability on her part, after all she's done, she's not going to trust that she can show it, possibly. I feel strongly that is the case with my h. 

One of the questions this whole experience has raised for me is, why some people ARE able to show remorse and be vulnerable to the partner they so badly injured, and others are not. Just more of the randomness of the crapshoot of partners who cheat, I guess.


----------



## Lilac23

Evinrude58 said:


> What I hate is that you've had no choice in this all along, but most likely you're going to get screwed.
> I think the fact that you work at home is a super good thing for you. I would make sure infidelity is on the paperwork for reason for filing for divorce. I would also do everything I could to fight for at least 50/50, and preferably full custody. Your wife will try to use your kids in court to get money out of you. She says she doesn't want alimony. She also says they only had sex once...👀
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


When did she say she doesn't want alimony? :bsflag: Musta missed that one...but I'm sure she'll change her mind. Can you get her to sign something to that effect? Like now?


----------



## tom67

Break into Conrad and say "I'm sorry you feel this way" and my classic with ex "are you done?" :wink2:


----------



## Lilac23

TeddieG said:


> One of the bittersweet issues for me, when h made his final choice to divorce and marry OW, after 7 years of being on the fence about it, was that this experience HAS changed me, improved me, made me stronger, made set boundaries and not let work run all over me. And it would have been nice for both of us to share the benefit of having had this experience temper and improve us. But h is being nice, sort of, in little spurts (I think he can only text me so many times before the guilt and the regret kick in), and it is all because he can't handle the vulnerability of remorse. Methinks the same is true of Grid's wife. Now matter how Grid might try to make himself able to, or is truly authentically able to naturally, show kindness in the eventuality of that need for vulnerability on her part, after all she's done, she's not going to trust that she can show it, possibly. I feel strongly that is the case with my h.
> 
> One of the questions this whole experience has raised for me is, why some people ARE able to show remorse and be vulnerable to the partner they so badly injured, and others are not. Just more of the randomness of the crapshoot of partners who cheat, I guess.


It's like lying, you could have some people on video tape doing something and they will deny it until they're blue in the face. Over meaningless sh!t too, something that has absolutely no bearing on anything of relevance or importance, and they will still lie.


----------



## Lilac23

tom67 said:


> Break into Conrad and say "I'm sorry you feel this way" and my classic with ex "are you done?" :wink2:


 "I see things differently", "I am not ok with this".


----------



## Evinrude58

All the stuff in your post about being loving but not loving enough, robbing your wife of an emotional bond, etc---- that's nothing but bs you are dreaming up due to your wife brainwashing you into thinking you were a bad husband. 
Let it freaking go, grid. Once you find a woman that's not a total narcissistic, broken person, you'll see just how easy it is to be the person you were never allowed to be with your wife. Look at what she is doing! She has not changed! She is the same as she always was/-- you're just finally seeing her as she really is. Wait until this new guy no longer serves her purpose. He will get the same stone cold emotionless cruel sh** that you're getting now. It would be priceless to get to hear the fellow whining to his buddies about it when it happens, when they know he was messing with another dude's wife. He won't get a lot of sympathy, I'll bet.

Wish you will post back a year or so from now and then tell us how you weren't loving enough.... 
This story will change as you see your marriage for what it really was.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Lilac23 said:


> When did she say she doesn't want alimony?


 He described the mediation as being close, but she wants the highest level of Child support, no alimony and he gets less time with the kids in their last round of talks.

Oh and be careful, some of these helpful conversation tactics are going to blow up in your face. You talk when she discusses the kids, have your headphones or whatever ready when it drifts into small talk. She knows you and knows how you react when she gives you crumbs. Sorry, HOPE can be used as a weapon.


----------



## Chuck71

phillybeffandswiss said:


> He described the mediation as being close, but she wants the highest level of Child support, no alimony and he gets less time with the kids in their last round of talks.
> 
> Oh and be careful, some of these helpful conversation tactics are going to blow up in your face. You talk when she discusses the kids, have your headphones or whatever ready when it drifts into small talk. She knows you and knows how you react when she gives you crumbs. Sorry, HOPE can be used as a weapon.


If TS told me my house was on fire, I wouldn't even raise my hand to feel the walls.

Her character tells me (and many others) she is baiting you for something else.

You can't trust a word she says. Carry a VAR around her at all times. I would recommend a few nanny

cams hidden.

IMHO... she wants a quick D / mediation to be with Pimples McStarbucks. She know you get frustrated 

easy, knows how to push your buttons. You may shove her or be forced to push her away if she corners you.

A quick call to the police and maybe a few red marks on her face and neck (self inflicted by TS)

and your happy arse is going to jail.

THEN she will disregard mediation and screw you over like the guy I mentioned earlier.

It's hard to mount a defense and look like a great dad when you're sitting in a jail cell.

Play smart..... be Greg Maddux.... he was great because he stayed three pitches ahead of the hitter


----------



## tom67

Chuck71 said:


> If TS told me my house was on fire, I wouldn't even raise my hand to feel the walls.
> 
> Her character tells me (and many others) she is baiting you for something else.
> 
> You can't trust a word she says. Carry a VAR around her at all times. I would recommend a few nanny
> 
> cams hidden.
> 
> IMHO... she wants a quick D / mediation to be with Pimples McStarbucks. She know you get frustrated
> 
> easy, knows how to push your buttons. You may shove her or be forced to push her away if she corners you.
> 
> A quick call to the police and maybe a few red marks on her face and neck (self inflicted by TS)
> 
> and your happy arse is going to jail.
> 
> THEN she will disregard mediation and screw you over like the guy I mentioned earlier.
> 
> It's hard to mount a defense and look like a great dad when you're sitting in a jail cell.
> 
> Play smart..... be Greg Maddux.... he was great because he stayed three pitches ahead of the hitter


He's the right handed Mark Buehrle anyway.


----------



## just got it 55

Chuck71 said:


> If TS told me my house was on fire, I wouldn't even raise my hand to feel the walls.
> 
> Her character tells me (and many others) she is baiting you for something else.
> 
> You can't trust a word she says. Carry a VAR around her at all times. I would recommend a few nanny
> 
> cams hidden.
> 
> IMHO... she wants a quick D / mediation to be with Pimples McStarbucks. She know you get frustrated
> 
> easy, knows how to push your buttons. You may shove her or be forced to push her away if she corners you.
> 
> A quick call to the police and maybe a few red marks on her face and neck (self inflicted by TS)
> 
> and your happy arse is going to jail.
> 
> THEN she will disregard mediation and screw you over like the guy I mentioned earlier.
> 
> It's hard to mount a defense and look like a great dad when you're sitting in a jail cell.
> 
> Play smart..... be Greg Maddux.... he was great because he stayed three pitches ahead of the hitter


Nah Chuck He should be like Gibson or Pedro and play some chin music

(metaphorically speaking) 

55

55


----------



## PieceOfSky

phillybeffandswiss said:


> I constantly see the good in people and give them the benefit of the doubt. Seeing the good in people when they have told you they did wrong and continue to do wrong is denial.




I see my wife sometime has a problem in the heat of the moment conflating and linking in half-truths and outright inaccuracies to paint me as, well, the loser she is "sure" I am.



I recently realized I have had a similar problem, but where I have leveraged my ability and willingness to see the good in her, and in our relationship, and paint a rosier picture of her and where we stand.



Distortions are easy. Kudos to anyone who finds the courage to look inward and outward seeking truth no matter how uncomfortable it sometimes feels.


----------



## PieceOfSky

Lilac23 said:


> It's like lying, you could have some people on video tape doing something and they will deny it until they're blue in the face. Over meaningless sh!t too, something that has absolutely no bearing on anything of relevance or importance, and they will still lie.




Sometimes the payoff for the liar isn't that the other is fooled. Rather, it is the liar gets to postpone a bit longer that which he or she fears most of all: Self-awareness, knowledge of the truth, having to integrate the disowned and undesired parts of oneself.



It's sad, because it is not possible to have a healthy relationship with someone who at their core is afraid to be seen. The more one insists on living in the real world rather than playing nice with other's distortions, the more threatened the liar feels. And people feeling threatened do the nastiest things and feel justified in doing so.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

PieceOfSky said:


> I see my wife sometime has a problem *in the heat of the moment *conflating and linking in half-truths and outright inaccuracies to paint me as, well, the loser she is "sure" I am.
> 
> 
> 
> I recently realized I have had a similar problem, but where I have leveraged my ability and willingness to see the good in her, and in our relationship, and paint a rosier picture of her and where we stand.
> 
> 
> 
> Distortions are easy. Kudos to anyone who finds the courage to look inward and outward seeking truth no matter how uncomfortable it sometimes feels.


I agree, but my quote doesn't apply to your situation. This stopped being heat of the moment long ago. She tripled down on her love for OM. She said she was in love with another guy, followed it up with a lie saying she was holding off on cheating when she already had, filed for divorce and even topped that by telling him in front of the retreat counselor she wants reconciliation to fail. 
There's nothing to distort "in the heat of the moment" anymore. He has been in denial since she filed and changed absolutely nothing.


----------



## happy as a clam

TeddieG said:


> One of the bittersweet issues for me, when h made his final choice to divorce and marry OW, after 7 years of being on the fence about it, was that t*his experience HAS changed me, improved me, made me stronger, made set boundaries and not let work run all over me.*


grid, listen to THIS! @TeddieG is my new hero!!! 

*"I Need A Hero" by Bonnie Tyler*


----------



## Chuck71

just got it 55 said:


> Nah Chuck He should be like Gibson or Pedro and play some chin music
> 
> (metaphorically speaking)
> 
> 55
> 
> 55


Correction Tom.....Mark Buehrle is the left handed Greg Maddux!

55...... you forgot Drysdale. Very friendly person but would buzz your whiskers if you crowded the plate


----------



## gridcom

Ok, so this thread was moved to private. I highly doubt if my STBXW (first time I've written that) was reading or not, but with all the legal talk and after talking to my lawyer today, I didn't want to take any chances. I was hoping to keep this not private because at the end I was going to go back to my original post and do a summary for all newcomers and do the "dont do what I did" edit.

But, oh well.

So, I went to my lawyers today and A) I really like him and B) he had some very interesting things to say. Basically, he told me I should absolutely pursue mediation. He said that 90-95% of divorces in Westchester get settled before a judge is ever seen, and once it is decided by both parties to pursue the litigation route, you are looking at tens of thousands of dollars on both sides, plus "forensic experts" who come in and do evaluations on both parents and the kids, and that bill is 12-15k which is paid weighted by the side who makes more. He said ultimately most couples don't have the finances or emotional stomach to go the distance and they end up settling anyway. And my chances of getting what I want out of litigation are 50/50 and I'd have the same luck going to Atlantic City and putting 40k down on black and hoping for the best.

I'll write more later.


----------



## TeddieG

Grid, you sound better and stronger. Meeting with an attorney is often empowering. My h was pressing me to fill out the online form and have it land in an inbox for a lawyer to produce a simple form, but I said no, and I'm so glad I did; my lawyer pointed out 4-5 things that I could ask for that were fair and that were not on the online simple form. 

Regardless, my point is, just talking to a professional who deals with the system all the time, and hearing them advise you, realizing they WANT to save you money, and having them help you prepare mentally and emotionally is REALLY empowering. 

Good for you, Grid!


----------



## Chuck71

Glad you saw a lawyer. If he's a good one... he will CYA.

After everything is said and done, I'm sure a mod can move this back to the public section


----------



## Thundarr

gridcom said:


> Ok, so this thread was moved to private. I highly doubt if my STBXW (first time I've written that) was reading or not, but with all the legal talk and after talking to my lawyer today, I didn't want to take any chances. I was hoping to keep this not private because at the end I was going to go back to my original post and do a summary for all newcomers and do the "dont do what I did" edit.
> 
> But, oh well.


Your thread has so many pages Grid and it has so much bickering back and forth that I think you will be better served when you're ready to create a thread highlighting what you've learned and what you'd like to express to newcomers. Something short and concise. I bet you can link to your own thread so you can link to this one so anyone who wants to become a member and post enough to see the private section can then read the whole thing. Honestly though they would have to sift through a lot.


----------



## just got it 55

gridcom said:


> Ok, so this thread was moved to private. I highly doubt if my STBXW (first time I've written that) was reading or not, but with all the legal talk and after talking to my lawyer today, I didn't want to take any chances. I was hoping to keep this not private because at the end I was going to go back to my original post and do a summary for all newcomers and do the "dont do what I did" edit.
> 
> But, oh well.
> 
> So, I went to my lawyers today and A) I really like him and B) he had some very interesting things to say. Basically, he told me I should absolutely pursue mediation. He said that 90-95% of divorces in Westchester get settled before a judge is ever seen, and once it is decided by both parties to pursue the litigation route, you are looking at tens of thousands of dollars on both sides, plus "forensic experts" who come in and do evaluations on both parents and the kids, and that bill is 12-15k which is paid weighted by the side who makes more. He said ultimately most couples don't have the finances or emotional stomach to go the distance and they end up settling anyway. And my chances of getting what I want out of litigation are 50/50 and I'd have the same luck going to Atlantic City and putting 40k down on black and hoping for the best.
> 
> I'll write more later.


Grid you sound dare I say encouraged !!

Funny how a little settling info can make you see things more clearly

55

It's just business now Grid

Remember

Clear & Present Detachment

55


----------



## Pluto2

Good for you!

Goes to show what the local attorneys can offer, around here-no one mediates, but then we are not in Westchester County. Good. Follow his advice. Did you get a chance to discuss custody, or moving out? I know how heavy they have been weighing on your mind.

Stay cool, you're going to be ok.


----------



## Lilac23

Did he tell you 50/50 custody was the best you could hope for?


----------



## gridcom

Re: Custody.... 50/50 is agreed upon all around. Would I want the kids the majority of the time? Sure. Is that what's best for the kids? No. They're little ladies, mommy is #1. That's just the way it is. Tomato Soup and I both agree and have always agreed to 50/50 even split of physical custody. I've read somewhere (maybe here?) that it's no good for the children to always be in transit, moving every few days. I guess the best way to do 50/50 is to literally go one week on, one week off. I think we both agree to that.

Re: Moving Out. My lawyer told me we could come up with a temporary agreement "without prejudice" that would basically lay out that just because I moved out doesn't mean or can't be taken as leverage in any custody battle. That said, he advised me not to move out. He said there is a myriad of reasons not to. Specifically for me, it was losing leverage during mediation negotiations overall not being there. Ie she wants to get it over with and be with this guy, and as long as I live there and we live together she is going to make hasty decisions and concessions.

Re: Telling her job about them. He said I couldn't get in any trouble for that, but if she loses her job over it, that can be a game changer in terms of mediation negotiations and her not asking for spousal support. He said he has seen examples of woman not taking spousal support due to stepping out on the marriage. He also said he's seen woman say it and then backpedal once they are about to sign because that's when it hits them. I am going to take my chances with her on this. 

I think the main point of contention my STBXW is going to have in mediation is her wanting me to pay the majority of the debt, as opposed to 50/50. Somehow, she has it stuck in her head that because I make the majority of the money, I should pay off the majority of the debt. My lawyer says that's not the way it goes, and even the mediator told her the same thing, but her lawyer must be telling her that if she doesn't want spousal support, get that instead. 

My lawyer also mentioned collaborative divorce, which I guess is the middle ground between mediation and litigation. That would be the next step if mediation hits a wall.


----------



## LongWalk

gridcom said:


> Re: Custody.... 50/50 is agreed upon all around. Would I want the kids the majority of the time? Sure. Is that what's best for the kids? No. They're little ladies, mommy is #1. That's just the way it is. Tomato Soup and I both agree and have always agreed to 50/50 even split of physical custody. I've read somewhere (maybe here?) that it's no good for the children to always be in transit, moving every few days. I guess the best way to do 50/50 is to literally go one week on, one week off. I think we both agree to that.


50/50 week on week off works well. You get a lot of time to work and then a lot of parenting time. It's fun.



> Re: Moving Out. My lawyer told me we could come up with a temporary agreement "without prejudice" that would basically lay out that just because I moved out doesn't mean or can't be taken as leverage in any custody battle. That said, he advised me not to move out. He said there is a myriad of reasons not to. Specifically for me, it was losing leverage during mediation negotiations overall not being there. *Ie she wants to get it over with* and be with this guy, and as long as I live there and we live together she is going to make hasty decisions and concessions.


Sounds like sound advice. 



> Re: Telling her job about them. He said I couldn't get in any trouble for that, but if she loses her job over it, that can be a game changer in terms of mediation negotiations and her not asking for spousal support. He said he has seen examples of woman not taking spousal support due to stepping out on the marriage. He also said he's seen woman say it and then backpedal once they are about to sign because that's when it hits them. I am going to take my chances with her on this.


She is already exposed to family and it did not make a difference. Let it rest?



> I think the main point of contention my STBXW is going to have in mediation is her wanting me to pay the majority of the debt, as opposed to 50/50. Somehow, she has it stuck in her head that because I make the majority of the money, I should pay off the majority of the debt. My lawyer says that's not the way it goes, and even the mediator told her the same thing, but her lawyer must be telling her that if she doesn't want spousal support, get that instead.
> 
> My lawyer also mentioned collaborative divorce, which I guess is the middle ground between mediation and litigation. That would be the next step if mediation hits a wall.


She wouldn't want you to get the majority of assets, right?


----------



## cbnero

I'm a big fan of exposure but it does have a shelf life. At this point focus on yourself and leave them to karma. The truth always outs and there is a saying - you might be done with the past, but the past might not be done with you. Forget them and disconnect.

Regarding your divorce, your lawyer sounds good. I think your goal of no maintenance is ideal. If you end up taking on 5k or 10k of extra debt do not worry about it.

The Marines have a 70% rule - if you have 70% of the resources needed and are at least 70% confident in the plan success, then you should execute it. It allows you to make good decisions in a speedy way. Take the focus off everything being absolutely perfect in fairness. Go for what you can live with that meets your overall objective. A few thousand dollars to remove this cancer from your life is nothing over the next 20-30 years and worth every penny. How much are you willing to pay to make her go away?


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Spousal support is tax deductible.

Paying off marital debts/credit cards is not.


----------



## Pluto2

I did a collaborative divorce. Unlike mediation (at least the ones around here) both parties have separate counsel and the attorneys work to avoid trial. In fact, my attorney said if an agreement couldn't be reached she would not represent me at trial. So you get the benefit of private counsel without the expense of litigation. It was one winding negotiation. The attorneys who practice collaborative divorce all know each other and none of them were a$$es-that would defeat the whole purpose.


----------



## Chuck71

Grid...... will this route lead to a swifter D final? Per ReGroup.... we all learned there is a one year

wait for D final for couples with child(ren) in NY.


----------



## JohnA

Find a way to keep the house. As long as it is there your girls will see it as home. Water follows the path of least resistance. You in the house will help custody. It also drives home the point she left. 

She is still in the fog. She thinks it just a question of switching guy A for B. She and kids stay in house and live happly ever after. Be polite and diplomatic but you stay in the home.


----------



## gridcom

JohnA said:


> Find a way to keep the house. As long as it is there your girls will see it as home. Water follows the path of least resistance. You in the house will help custody. It also drives home the point she left.
> 
> She is still in the fog. She thinks it just a question of switching guy A for B. She and kids stay in house and live happly ever after. Be polite and diplomatic but you stay in the home.


Nah. Rock bottom for me is walking in this house after a long night and feeling it vacant and empty. I'd rather walk into a new apartment, softens the blow. Plus, it signals a new beginning

This house is/was a family house. It's not for some single guy who has his daughters every other week.


----------



## Pluto2

ThreeStrikes said:


> Spousal support is tax deductible.
> 
> Paying off marital debts/credit cards is not.


You can word it to do both. I made the car payments on the ex's truck (it was in both names) and in the agreement had it specifically designated as limited/temporary spousal support to terminate with the extinguishment of the lien on the vehicle. I got the deduction and made sure he didn't screw up my credit. 
Grid, it might be worth asking about.


----------



## TeddieG

Pluto2 said:


> I did a collaborative divorce. Unlike mediation (at least the ones around here) both parties have separate counsel and the attorneys work to avoid trial. In fact, my attorney said if an agreement couldn't be reached she would not represent me at trial. So you get the benefit of private counsel without the expense of litigation. It was one winding negotiation. The attorneys who practice collaborative divorce all know each other and none of them were a$$es-that would defeat the whole purpose.


That's what h and I did, although my attorney WOULD have represented me if we'd had to go to trial. H started the process listing his debts and assets for his lawyer, and I listed my debts and assets for mine, and there were things my lawyer wanted for me, conveyed that to h's, and I never once had to deal with h on it. The two attorneys talked to each other and then talked to each of us and I didn't have to deal with h. And it was really really financially reasonable.


----------



## EleGirl

gridcom said:


> Ok, so this thread was moved to private. I highly doubt if my STBXW (first time I've written that) was reading or not, but with all the legal talk and after talking to my lawyer today, I didn't want to take any chances. I was hoping to keep this not private because at the end I was going to go back to my original post and do a summary for all newcomers and do the "dont do what I did" edit.
> 
> But, oh well.
> 
> So, I went to my lawyers today and A) I really like him and B) he had some very interesting things to say. Basically, he told me I should absolutely pursue mediation. He said that 90-95% of divorces in Westchester get settled before a judge is ever seen, and once it is decided by both parties to pursue the litigation route, you are looking at tens of thousands of dollars on both sides, plus "forensic experts" who come in and do evaluations on both parents and the kids, and that bill is 12-15k which is paid weighted by the side who makes more. He said ultimately most couples don't have the finances or emotional stomach to go the distance and they end up settling anyway. And my chances of getting what I want out of litigation are 50/50 and I'd have the same luck going to Atlantic City and putting 40k down on black and hoping for the best.
> 
> I'll write more later.


If that's what your lawyer told you, he's a good, honest lawyer not out to take you for all you have. I'm glad to hear you have a good one.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Grid - you're an emotional guy - I get that. You say rock bottom is walking into an empty house. Are you sure it isn't knowing your whole family - minus you - plus Starbux guy - are filling the house as though nothing has changed? Because that's exactly what happens if you leave but don't sell the house.


----------



## Lilac23

gridcom said:


> Nah. Rock bottom for me is walking in this house after a long night and feeling it vacant and empty. I'd rather walk into a new apartment, softens the blow. Plus, it signals a new beginning
> 
> This house is/was a family house. It's not for some single guy who has his daughters every other week.


It might be nice for the kids to still have one home that they are familiar with, if you and the ex both move, that's even more adjustment for the kids. Apartments kind of blow for kids, lack of outdoor space, having to be quiet for the neighbors, etc. It can still be a family house, your _new _ family. If it has a lot of memories you can redecorate, paint, different furniture, you could 'mancave' it up. And would you please get a go**amn dog already!?!?! Mommy and Jr. wont have one in their appt and you wont have to wax poetically about being lonely at night anymore.


----------



## Evinrude58

Lilac23 said:


> It might be nice for the kids to still have one home that they are familiar with, if you and the ex both move, that's even more adjustment for the kids. Apartments kind of blow for kids, lack of outdoor space, having to be quiet for the neighbors, etc. It can still be a family house, your _new _ family. If it has a lot of memories you can redecorate, paint, different furniture, you could 'mancave' it up. And would you please get a go**amn dog already!?!?! Mommy and Jr. wont have one in their appt and you wont have to wax poetically about being lonely at night anymore.


I still live in my home. I need it. I want it. It's on my family land. I built it. 
I do know how you feel, but I need the space. My gf likes her "country home", too. 😊
I don't let the fact that me cheating ex not living there bother me too much. I doubt you will either, once you get over this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thundarr

Kids need dad, mom, grand dads, grand moms, aunts, uncles, syblings, cousins, etc. Yea family. Forget this home or that home. They need family. A stable home is not the sticks and bricks.


----------



## gridcom

Lilac23 said:


> It might be nice for the kids to still have one home that they are familiar with, if you and the ex both move, that's even more adjustment for the kids. Apartments kind of blow for kids, lack of outdoor space, having to be quiet for the neighbors, etc. It can still be a family house, your _new _ family. If it has a lot of memories you can redecorate, paint, different furniture, you could 'mancave' it up. And would you please get a go**amn dog already!?!?! Mommy and Jr. wont have one in their appt and you wont have to wax poetically about being lonely at night anymore.


I hate dogs


----------



## LongWalk

If you leave, it sends all sorts of negative messages to your children.

"Daddy left. He deserted us. We still have our home with mommy, but daddy left. He doesn't love us"


----------



## Pluto2

LongWalk said:


> If you leave, it sends all sorts of negative messages to your children.
> 
> "Daddy left. He deserted us. We still have our home with mommy, but daddy left. He doesn't love us"


No it doesn't. This is a pretty mean to say.

Children who are loved and supported know it, whether or not the parent is in the same house or not.

Kids feel deserted when a parent leaves and stops all contact.

I do agree that a home is where the love is located, not a particular piece of furniture.


----------



## LongWalk

Seeing dad everyday and seeing dad 4 or 5 days a month is a huge change in a child's life.


----------



## Pluto2

except Grid already said he and TS have agreed on 50-50 custody so he will be in their lives a whole lot more than 4-5 days a month.


----------



## lifeistooshort

gridcom said:


> I hate dogs


What about cats? 

I love cats.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

I feel very competent in the fact Grid would spend 28 / 29 / 30 / 31 days a month with his girls after the D

IF the courts allowed him to. 

I do not think shaming him will be productive in any manner


----------



## ThreeStrikes

LongWalk said:


> If you leave, it sends all sorts of negative messages to your children.
> 
> "Daddy left. He deserted us. We still have our home with mommy, but daddy left. He doesn't love us"


I left.

Message sent to kids: "Don't tolerate an un-remorseful cheater".

My kids are fine. Our relationship is normal.

Your kids will be ok, grid.


----------



## Chuck71

lifeistooshort said:


> What about cats?
> 
> I love cats.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Shocked when he hated doggies..... love dem doggies!!!

Sometimes I think more of dogs than humans..... sad to say and says a lot about me too I bet


----------



## bandit.45

lifeistooshort said:


> What about cats?
> 
> I love cats.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Cats are evil. They are harbingers of Hades.


----------



## gridcom

lifeistooshort said:


> What about cats?
> 
> I love cats.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


love cats. Have had an army of cats throughout my life.

RE: custody. We had a talk about this yesterday. I want one week me, one week her "legally". We'd make adjustments based on schedules, but legally, straight down the middle (with adjustments for major holidays)

Her idea is completely twisted and unfair. She basically wants to pass the kids around like they are a bowl of mashed potatoes. In other words, she wants my half to be largely made up of them sleeping and when they are at school. Specifically, she wants to have them get off the bus and spend after school with her, then essentially drive them over to me before bed (every night, for the next 13 years), have them sleep at my place, me get them ready and off to school, and then we split weekends. I was like "How is that fair to me and how is that fair for the kids, making them feel like they are perpetually on the move?" She said that I couldn't handle dinner and homework, etc. I think to myself "What if she was dead? What would happen then? Would the kids be orphans because suddenly I dont know how to handle homework and am not a good cook?" No, obviously I'll have to figure it out. It doesn't seem all that difficult. It's like just because she's done that doesnt mean I can't. In other words, she doesn't mow the lawn, but it doesn't mean she couldnt if she had to.

I am very much into the week to week thing. Passing kids around every few days or, sweet Jesus, bringing them over my house every night just to sleep, seems completely unstable for the kids.


----------



## truster

gridcom said:


> Grid.
> 
> Cool. Firm. Dispassionate.
> 
> I am the least dispassionate person I've ever met.
> 
> I hear you all, but you mean to tell me I have to live with this woman in this little house and watch her have an affair from up close? I have to sit here night after night while she is out with this guy doing who knows what? I'm not going to ask you all 'Do you know how much that will rip me apart?' because I know many of you know how much.
> 
> This is unjust. I want to be away from this woman. NOW.
> 
> I really cant say anything more about this other than it's simply unacceptable to me. It's unacceptable.


MMA fighters are incredibly passionate people. I think you have to be to enjoy the process enough to stick with it through the many, many difficult and painful aspects. But every single one of them knows that in the ring the first person to see red when they get hit in the face, and drop the game plan, is the person who's leaving with a loss.

Inevitably someone does see red and loses, despite their best efforts. But all of them do end their careers with a much higher tolerance to anger than they started with. If these guys can beat it through hard work, I bet you can too.


----------



## Marc878

NO!!!!!! Time she finally learned she doesn't get to make all the rules and the sun doesn't rise and fall on her behalf.

Have you finally had enough to get rid of this?

Your saga is painfull to read sometimes.


----------



## gridcom

Marc878 said:


> NO!!!!!! Time she finally learned she doesn't get to make all the rules and the sun doesn't rise and fall on her behalf.
> 
> Have you finally had enough to get rid of this?
> 
> Your saga is painfull to read sometimes.


She complained to me yesterday that she didnt have enough money to pay for her EZPass and she had to go to Long Island yesterday and use the CASH lane. I just said "poor you"

Meanwhile, I finally told my closest friend here in our town about what's going down (I dont have any "close" friends locally. I've found it hard to make deep friendships in the last 10 years since we had our first child and I work so much) My wife and I have made friends with other couples, and this guy I would consider my closest friend. He is the husband of the woman who came up to me at the pool over the summer and asked me "What did you do?" because I stopped playing softball and started to go with my wife to church.

Anyway, he plays softball and when I stopped playing (I actually run the local league) he was making fun of me in a very light hearted way. He told me the other night that when I stopped playing, the rumors going around with the other couples was that I cheated, not my wife. Because she is active in the community and the church and I am the "rebel rocknroller", you know, with the job in the music business and I travel to festivals etc. The talk among all the boys was that I started going to church because I cheated.

Ah, the unforeseen consequences of my STBXW's actions continue to reveal themselves..... And she's complaining about her EZPass


----------



## turnera

gridcom said:


> love cats. Have had an army of cats throughout my life.
> 
> RE: custody. We had a talk about this yesterday. I want one week me, one week her "legally". We'd make adjustments based on schedules, but legally, straight down the middle (with adjustments for major holidays)
> 
> Her idea is completely twisted and unfair. She basically wants to pass the kids around like they are a bowl of mashed potatoes. In other words, she wants my half to be largely made up of them sleeping and when they are at school. Specifically, she wants to have them get off the bus and spend after school with her, then essentially drive them over to me before bed (every night, for the next 13 years), have them sleep at my place, me get them ready and off to school, and then we split weekends. I was like "How is that fair to me and how is that fair for the kids, making them feel like they are perpetually on the move?" She said that I couldn't handle dinner and homework, etc. I think to myself "What if she was dead? What would happen then? Would the kids be orphans because suddenly I dont know how to handle homework and am not a good cook?" No, obviously I'll have to figure it out. It doesn't seem all that difficult. It's like just because she's done that doesnt mean I can't. In other words, she doesn't mow the lawn, but it doesn't mean she couldnt if she had to.
> 
> I am very much into the week to week thing. Passing kids around every few days or, sweet Jesus, bringing them over my house every night just to sleep, seems completely unstable for the kids.


So what are you going to do when she refuses this?


----------



## Marc878

Full exposure up front could have fixed a lot of that.

The full honest truth has a way of fixing things. I would hope you've learned from that.

She's had very little consequences so why would she even think about changing her ways?

Stop all the enabling now. Your life will get a whole lot less complicated. She'll be p!ssed off but that's better than you getting p!ssed on. Right????


----------



## truster

gridcom said:


> Her idea is completely twisted and unfair. She basically wants to pass the kids around like they are a bowl of mashed potatoes. In other words, she wants my half to be largely made up of them sleeping and when they are at school. Specifically, she wants to have them get off the bus and spend after school with her, then essentially drive them over to me before bed (every night, for the next 13 years), have them sleep at my place, me get them ready and off to school, and then we split weekends. I was like "How is that fair to me and how is that fair for the kids, making them feel like they are perpetually on the move?" She said that I couldn't handle dinner and homework, etc. I think to myself "What if she was dead? What would happen then? Would the kids be orphans because suddenly I dont know how to handle homework and am not a good cook?" No, obviously I'll have to figure it out. It doesn't seem all that difficult. It's like just because she's done that doesnt mean I can't. In other words, she doesn't mow the lawn, but it doesn't mean she couldnt if she had to.


That is definitely a plan that screams "MY WANTS AND NEEDS" over "THE KIDS' WANTS AND NEEDS". She wants them around, but then is happy to disrupt their lives so she can have free babysitting and go party at night. Ugh.

However (disclaimer, discuss with your lawyer obviously), this could be a good position for her to take into mediation/court, because it's just so untenable. Plus, behind the scenes, it anchors the negotiation around 50/50 once all the absurd aspects are removed. That could be good for you.. better than starting negotiations at 'every other weekend'.


----------



## LongWalk

The EZPass is a good illustration of the co-dependency in your relationship. She has a problem, one of her own making, that she wants to share. Based on your relationship, you are supposed to empathize and fix it. Instinctively she lays a guilt trip on you. That is probably a common exchange between the two of you. So common that you don't even notice. You just feel guilty and do what she wants. This one reason that she fell out of love with you. Another reason is that women who have been in a relationship seek new DNA for the next child to maximize genetic diversity.

Your wife, even after she is your ex, will never stop trying to guilt you into doing stuff for her. As long as you agree, she will keep requesting. Recall at the beginning of this thread, I predicted she try to guilt you into putting snow tires on her car. If you give in on the EZPass, she will expect the tires.

The reason she wants you to have the children at night is so that she can fvck OM without the d*mn kids killing the romantic scene. If she eventually breaks up with OM and is mad about things he did or didn't do, she will want to complain to you about him.

Right now, while you are in limbo, tell her that she can spend a week at OM's and week at home. That way you can practice the new scheme.

Don't lose your temper. Smile and be polite. You can even be sympathetic so long as you don't give in. You can certainly make a funny joke about EZPass sucking if you have one. She wants to drive on the speedy side of the road, she has to pay.

The more jokes you can crack, the better.

When ReGroup was here, and he was a Mets fan, Conrad or someone even photoshopped a Mets jersey with the vile obscenity she flung at him. I can't remember exactly, but I think she called him a f*ggot *ss nozzle (I don't think anyone had heard this before, but according to Urban Dictionary, it refers to the "shanked out remains of one's anus following anal sex."

Mrs ReGroup ran away to live with OM, but still wanted ReGroup to do what she wanted. Their daughter was the hostage as they fought over the terms of divorce. Once ReGroup had TAM coaching from Mavash, Conrad, Chuck, GutPunch, Zillard, etc. he stopped caving into her shyte test. Mrs ReGroup actually rediscovered her love for him and would have come home in a flash, but she lacked the insight that might have made that possible.

1) She needed to leave OM and go no contact
2) Express remorse for what she had done

She did not have anyone coaching her. Ironically, she worked a school... was she a counselor?

At the end when their divorce was finalized in a Queens family court, the newly ex-Mrs ReGroup was full of desire for him. He was able to tell jokes as they sat and waited for the judge.

This is one of curiosities of divorce when infidelity occurs. The cheater leaves the marriage with all their failing, but some new one, e.g., lowered self esteem due to months of lying and fornicating, and jumps into a new relationship that is supposed solve their problems. The betrayed spouse, if they can pull themselves together, becomes a wiser, stronger, better person. It doesn't always happen, but at least the betrayed spouse doesn't have to launch themselves into a new but badly flawed co-dependency. Turnera is very emphatic on this point.

re: relationship discussion
For the most part relationship discussions with cheater are fruitless and counterproductive since they feed the cheater's ego. There is one thing that you might consider saying to your wife. Maybe others will scream "no, don't do it!" But why not say to Tomato Soup that you regret having impatiently forced her to have make-up sex when she did not want it. Tell her that you wanted to be close to her and you should have respected her warning that it would not mean anything.

Say that it did mean something. You disrespected her and yourself and you apologize. Don't make it a word longer than necessary. Don't get into a discussion. 

Do you remember being in warm bath when you were a kid? I was the eldest of four brothers. My mother used to put three of us in at a time. We would play and play. The water was cloudy from all the soap and we used slosh the water back and forth. There was a yellow duck, plastic soldiers, etc. In the end the plug was pulled from the cooling waters and I remember how when the youngest disappeared into towels the water level sank. I tried to stay under the water to avoid the cold air but the warmth ran out steadily.

Your wife is still in the warm water of your love and affection. She is trying to keep comfy in it as long as she can before she hops over into OM's bed. If you leave first, you allow her to enjoy your love as an imaginary reserve. As long as you stay so that she can feel and see your love vanishing, you send her the right message.


----------



## Marc878

Grid,

Correct me if I'm wrong but what you've been doing doesn't seem to have worked, correct?

Maybe it's time you let it all hang out. Cut her off and start telling everyone the truth for a change.

I think you need to dig deep and start doing what really needs to be done here.

Get this off your back and on hers. Let her have the experience of what consequences are. It will be very educational and who knows maybe she'll grow up into an adult.

The affair is on her. How you've handled this and going forward is on you.

I think it's well past time for you to realize this. Can you do it to the full extent that it needs to be done?????


----------



## gridcom

LongWalk said:


> The EZPass is a good illustration of the co-dependency in your relationship. She has a problem, one of her own making, that she wants to share. Based on your relationship, you are supposed to empathize and fix it. Instinctively she lays a guilt trip on you. That is probably a common exchange between the two of you. So common that you don't even notice. You just feel guilty and do what she wants. This one reason that she fell out of love with you. Another reason is that women who have been in a relationship seek new DNA for the next child to maximize genetic diversity.
> 
> Your wife, even after she is your ex, will never stop trying to guilt you into doing stuff for her. As long as you agree, she will keep requesting. Recall at the beginning of this thread, I predicted she try to guilt you into putting snow tires on her car. If you give in on the EZPass, she will expect the tires.
> 
> The reason she wants you to have the children at night is so that she can fvck OM without the d*mn kids killing the romantic scene. If she eventually breaks up with OM and is mad about things he did or didn't do, she will want to complain to you about him.
> 
> Right now, while you are in limbo, tell her that she can spend a week at OM's and week at home. That way you can practice the new scheme.
> 
> Don't lose your temper. Smile and be polite. You can even be sympathetic so long as you don't give in. You can certainly make a funny joke about EZPass sucking if you have one. She wants to drive on the speedy side of the road, she has to pay.
> 
> The more jokes you can crack, the better.
> 
> When ReGroup was here, and he was a Mets fan, Conrad or someone even photoshopped a Mets jersey with the vile obscenity she flung at him. I can't remember exactly, but I think she called him a f*ggot *ss nozzle (I don't think anyone had heard this before, but according to Urban Dictionary, it refers to the "shanked out remains of one's anus following anal sex."
> 
> Mrs ReGroup ran away to live with OM, but still wanted ReGroup to do what she wanted. Their daughter was the hostage as they fought over the terms of divorce. Once ReGroup had TAM coaching from Mavash, Conrad, Chuck, GutPunch, Zillard, etc. he stopped caving into her shyte test. Mrs ReGroup actually rediscovered her love for him and would have come home in a flash, but she lacked the insight that might have made that possible.
> 
> 1) She needed to leave OM and go no contact
> 2) Express remorse for what she had done
> 
> She did not have anyone coaching her. Ironically, she worked a school... was she a counselor?
> 
> At the end when their divorce was finalized in a Queens family court, the newly ex-Mrs ReGroup was full of desire for him. He was able to tell jokes as they sat and waited for the judge.
> 
> This is one of curiosities of divorce when infidelity occurs. The cheater leaves the marriage with all their failing, but some new one, e.g., lowered self esteem due to months of lying and fornicating, and jumps into a new relationship that is supposed solve their problems. The betrayed spouse, if they can pull themselves together, becomes a wiser, stronger, better person. It doesn't always happen, but at least the betrayed spouse doesn't have to launch themselves into a new but badly flawed co-dependency. Turnera is very emphatic on this point.
> 
> re: relationship discussion
> For the most part relationship discussions with cheater are fruitless and counterproductive since they feed the cheater's ego. There is one thing that you might consider saying to your wife. Maybe others will scream "no, don't do it!" But why not say to Tomato Soup that you regret having impatiently forced her to have make-up sex when she did not want it. Tell her that you wanted to be close to her and you should have respected her warning that it would not mean anything.
> 
> Say that it did mean something. You disrespected her and yourself and you apologize. Don't make it a word longer than necessary. Don't get into a discussion.
> 
> Do you remember being in warm bath when you were a kid? I was the eldest of four brothers. My mother used to put three of us in at a time. We would play and play. The water was cloudy from all the soap and we used slosh the water back and forth. There was a yellow duck, plastic soldiers, etc. In the end the plug was pulled from the cooling waters and I remember how when the youngest disappeared into towels the water level sank. I tried to stay under the water to avoid the cold air but the warmth ran out steadily.
> 
> Your wife is still in the warm water of your love and affection. She is trying to keep comfy in it as long as she can before she hops over into OM's bed. If you leave first, you allow her to enjoy your love as an imaginary reserve. As long as you stay so that she can feel and see your love vanishing, you send her the right message.


Nice post.

I am not apologizing anymore for anything, even if it's wrong. The other day, when I went to my lawyer, I forgot she had to work a day shift. When I found out out the night before, I told her I had somewhere to be. She was all panicked. She ended up taking the kids to her job where they sat for an hour. When she got home, she was mad that I did it. I told her, similar to how she's felt over the last few months, I know what I did was wrong, and I should apologize, but I'm not going to because, frankly, I'm not sorry.

She's had enough apologies from me to last a lifetime.


----------



## GusPolinski

FTR, I'm w/ @gridcom on the cat/dog thing.

Don't get me wrong, dogs are cool and all, but compared to cats they're just so whiny and needy. And EXPENSIVE!

Cats are way easier, way more adorable, and much less maintenance overall. Plus they're way more affectionate than a lot of people seem to think.


----------



## Evinrude58

Grid, I got 50/50 custody on paper. Wound up, I was constantly switching them around. I finally had to tell the ex that it wasn't working and wanted to do straight week/week. It was impossible to make a schedule with days being all over the place. My kids were basically "visiting" me. My eldest son is 14 and is very much like his mother/- can't say he's sorry when clearly in the wrong, selfish, lazy. They all like being with mom more because she's their mom, she has money to buy them what they want constantly, and they have their grandparents to help drive them here and there. The ex is with her bf all the time so they get to do whatever they feel like there. They just got back today from a Colorado ski trip with their mom and her bf.
Staying with me a full week has been much better. Even my eldest adjusted and we all had a good time the last time we were together for a couple of weeks straight.

I'm just suggesting you be firm and get the week/week thing straight from the get-go. It will be better. And I agree with others in that she's wanting to have all interaction with the kids in the daytime, and screwing the OM at night.

I also think she is going to get a good dose of reality that she needs. 
You will be fine. I cook about 3 or 4 days a week, get a pizza one day, have sandwiches one day....
Spaghetti, hot dogs, BBQ, breakfast for supper, grilled pork chops, corn dogs, salad.... Crock pots are your friend, lol.

I was probably 2 loads of clothes a day when kids are here. Homework gets done as soon as we get home.
Running them all over the place for extracurricular stuff is what I have a hard time with--- time consuming and expensive. And they feel do entitled.....
But you are right--/ you can do it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

GusPolinski said:


> FTR, I'm w/ @gridcom on the cat/dog thing.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, dogs are cool and all, but compared to cats they're just so whiny and needy. And EXPENSIVE!
> 
> Cats are way easier, way more adorable, and much less maintenance overall. Plus they're way more affectionate than a lot of people seem to think.


Until they sneak up on you sleeping one night, and suck your soul out through your nostrils.


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## GusPolinski

bandit.45 said:


> Until they sneak up on you sleeping one night, and suck your soul out through your nostrils.


Hey, they gotta get them 9 lives from somewhere.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marc878

GusPolinski said:


> FTR, I'm w/ @gridcom on the cat/dog thing.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, dogs are cool and all, but compared to cats they're just so whiny and needy. And EXPENSIVE!
> A
> Cats are way easier, way more adorable, and much less maintenance overall. Plus they're way more affectionate than a lot of people seem to think.


I have a dog in a cats body.


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## GusPolinski

Marc878 said:


> I have a dog in a cats body.


Our Beagle sometimes thinks he's a cat, and one of our cats seems to think that she's a dog.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45

GusPolinski said:


> Hey, they gotta get them 9 lives from somewhere.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well yeah...you didn't know that? :surprise:


----------



## JohnA

Grid, 

Her idea of custody shows how deeply she is still in the fog. At this point I would humor her by saying, it's a thought but won't the girls feel like you are just dumping them ? I can cook, I can help with homework, but I haven't since you were here full time and still only work part time. Things will change when you work full time, we both need to adapt and grow. Mean while post on here and tell you lawyer no way. Let him be the bad guy and say no, the court will not go for it.


Finally how are you doing maintaining the changes you spoke of at the beginning of the thread. Remember those changes are for you and the next women in her life.


----------



## just got it 55

Grid no way around this

TS is going to make this very nasty

Prepare yourself

55


----------



## JohnA

Hey Grid,

How certain are you Starbucks boy is the OM that is the real guy and not a stalking horse? It would make more sense if it was a church guy or civic guy.

Did you ever get a VAR, check phone bills, look for a burner phone? 

How did you friend react when you told him?


----------



## Pluto2

Grid, I have a good friend who went through a divorce, but, bless his heart, he just doesn't have a clue about kids. Before the divorce he made a real effort to spend one-on-one time with each child. He thought this was a good idea and it probably was. He wanted to continue it after the divorce. So he went into the settlement conference offering one week with one child, one week with the other child, one week with both children, and one week with no kids (because, you know, he wanted his space). He was literally laughed out of court. The judge said that was right on the cusp of child abuse due to the unmanageable schedule. The judge gave them one week on, one week off, split holidays.

Her offer is just as bad. Part of being divorced is being a single parent. Poor dear will just have to figure it out.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Pluto2 said:


> Grid, I have a good friend who went through a divorce, but, bless his heart, he just doesn't have a clue about kids. Before the divorce he made a real effort to spend one-on-one time with each child. He thought this was a good idea and it probably was. He wanted to continue it after the divorce. So he went into the settlement conference offering one week with one child, one week with the other child, one week with both children, and one week with no kids (because, you know, he wanted his space). He was literally laughed out of court. The judge said that was right on the cusp of child abuse due to the unmanageable schedule. The judge gave them one week on, one week off, split holidays.
> 
> Her offer is just as bad. Part of being divorced is being a single parent. Poor dear will just have to figure it out.


Yep. No way the courts would go for such a ridiculous visitation schedule.

TS is clearly delusional. Doesn't she know any divorced people??

Week on/off is the most stable plan for 50/50.


----------



## Chuck71

Grid......... you are resilient. Everytime you seem to lay down and be a doormat... you stand up. Notice you're

doing that often now? Hope to see you do it more often.

You're getting there..... personally, I am glad to see this!

Happy New Year!


----------



## Evinrude58

At one time grid couldn't even see having his kids other than full time. Couldn't see his marriage ending. He's made more progress in two months than the first 6.

In this situation, I think this is a classic case where 2 years from now, he will be over the pain, and his wife will be just beginning hers. 

I read that in infidelity cases, the man is crushed at first in a horrible way, but the cheating wife winds up hurting for years. Grid saw this person had good in her once. Her conscience will eventually catch up with her. After years of bad decisions, she will wind up a sad, unhappy person. Grid, however, will find happiness and go on with his life. She won't.
Jmo
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

gridcom said:


> Her idea is completely twisted and unfair. She basically wants to pass the kids around like they are a bowl of mashed potatoes. In other words, she wants my half to be largely made up of them sleeping and when they are at school. Specifically, she wants to have them get off the bus and spend after school with her, then essentially drive them over to me before bed (every night, for the next 13 years), have them sleep at my place, me get them ready and off to school, and then we split weekends. I was like "How is that fair to me and how is that fair for the kids, making them feel like they are perpetually on the move?" .


Hahaha See, you thought some of us were being harsh, we said she wanted you to be a glorified baby sitter. Read this again and think about what time she'd bring them home. Then think about dating and partying. Yep, she goes to work, watches the kids for a few hours, goes out dating and the kids despise you.


----------



## TeddieG

truster said:


> That is definitely a plan that screams "MY WANTS AND NEEDS" over "THE KIDS' WANTS AND NEEDS". She wants them around, but then is happy to disrupt their lives so she can have free babysitting and go party at night. Ugh.
> 
> However (disclaimer, discuss with your lawyer obviously), this could be a good position for her to take into mediation/court, because it's just so untenable. Plus, behind the scenes, it anchors the negotiation around 50/50 once all the absurd aspects are removed. That could be good for you.. better than starting negotiations at 'every other weekend'.


It also occurs to me that this arrangement might be something she expects in return for no alimony/spousal support. Just thinking it's possible; she may not be smart enough to be that conniving, but hey . . .


----------



## Chuck71

TeddieG said:


> It also occurs to me that this arrangement might be something she expects in return for no alimony/spousal support. Just thinking it's possible; she may not be smart enough to be that conniving, but hey . . .


I will bet my 1962 Corvette she is.......


----------



## TeddieG

GusPolinski said:


> Our Beagle sometimes thinks he's a cat, and one of our cats seems to think that she's a dog.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ah, phooey. In a year or two I'm leaving here and moving home and getting a horse. So there.


----------



## TeddieG

Evinrude58 said:


> At one time grid couldn't even see having his kids other than full time. Couldn't see his marriage ending. He's made more progress in two months than the first 6.
> 
> *In this situation, I think this is a classic case where 2 years from now, he will be over the pain, and his wife will be just beginning hers. *
> 
> I read that in infidelity cases, the man is crushed at first in a horrible way, but the cheating wife winds up hurting for years. Grid saw this person had good in her once. Her conscience will eventually catch up with her. After years of bad decisions, she will wind up a sad, unhappy person. Grid, however, will find happiness and go on with his life. She won't.
> Jmo
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Word up. Some friends told me that my life, now that h went through with divorce, is about to get a whole lot better while HIS is about to get a whole lot worse. It already is. 

But I DO want my x to be healthy and whole and have a good life, in part because he doesn't have much of it left. But I think Grid will be just fine and may be really profoundly surprised how much better life on the other side feels. Whatever happens, and if TS shows up and wants back in, Grid will know what to do.


----------



## Evinrude58

If the divorce isn't too bad financially, 50/50 chance they'll get back together. It won't work. She is incapable of remorse. Can't even say she's sorry. That says everything I need to know about her.

I hope a good woman comes along and wins the man's heart in a year or two. And he doesn't care what happens to his wife other than his kids are happy and safe when they're with her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thundarr

gridcom said:


> Her idea is completely twisted and unfair. She basically wants to pass the kids around like they are a bowl of mashed potatoes. In other words, she wants my half to be largely made up of them sleeping and when they are at school. Specifically, she wants to have them get off the bus and spend after school with her, then essentially drive them over to me before bed (every night, for the next 13 years), have them sleep at my place, me get them ready and off to school, and then we split weekends. I was like "How is that fair to me and how is that fair for the kids, making them feel like they are perpetually on the move?" She said that I couldn't handle dinner and homework, etc. I think to myself "What if she was dead? What would happen then? Would the kids be orphans because suddenly I dont know how to handle homework and am not a good cook?" No, obviously I'll have to figure it out. It doesn't seem all that difficult. It's like just because she's done that doesnt mean I can't. In other words, she doesn't mow the lawn, but it doesn't mean she couldnt if she had to.


Her suggestion is a terrible idea which you know. She's playing her part in this repeating script Grid. Maybe she doesn't like the part of divorce where she doesn't get to see the kids for days at a time so she's suggesting this hair brained idea that will have you and her running them around almost every day. It's self centered and illogical thinking on her part. And of course her bringing them to you would change to her expecting you to pick them up. Fortunately unless you both agreed to this arrangement, a judge would never agree to it.


----------



## Evinrude58

Grid will get the kids all he wants. Does this woman sound like one who has her mind on mothering?
_Posted via Mobile Device_i mean, no matter what the court says, he'll get them lots


----------



## Chuck71

My late MiL raised 5 kids on a mill salary in the 1960s and 70s. Born in 1930, left school after 6th grade.

My God could she cook! Multi-tasked with the best. Gone eight years and I still miss her.

She was one of my hero(ettes). Grid... you can pull off dinner and homework.

There's a good chance your girls will help you.

A father and his daughters have a special bond..... as years pass by you will see it.


----------



## Lilac23

lifeistooshort said:


> What about cats?
> 
> I love cats.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I hate cats.


----------



## Lilac23

gridcom said:


> I hate dogs


How can you hate dogs?!?!?! SMH....  :surprise: :scratchhead:


----------



## Chuck71

I hate parrots! But not parrotheads...... aka Jimmy Buffet


----------



## gridcom

Lilac23 said:


> gridcom said:
> 
> 
> 
> I hate dogs
> 
> 
> 
> How can you hate dogs?!?!?! SMH....
Click to expand...

I have a valid reason but it's irrelevant. What is relevant is all of you, to me

Here's to 2016. "It can't possibly be worse than 2015". 

Merry New Year


----------



## Lilac23

gridcom said:


> love cats. Have had an army of cats throughout my life.
> 
> RE: custody. We had a talk about this yesterday. I want one week me, one week her "legally". We'd make adjustments based on schedules, but legally, straight down the middle (with adjustments for major holidays)
> 
> Her idea is completely twisted and unfair. She basically wants to pass the kids around like they are a bowl of mashed potatoes. In other words, she wants my half to be largely made up of them sleeping and when they are at school. Specifically, she wants to have them get off the bus and spend after school with her, then essentially drive them over to me before bed (every night, for the next 13 years), have them sleep at my place, me get them ready and off to school, and then we split weekends. I was like "How is that fair to me and how is that fair for the kids, making them feel like they are perpetually on the move?" She said that I couldn't handle dinner and homework, etc. I think to myself "What if she was dead? What would happen then? Would the kids be orphans because suddenly I dont know how to handle homework and am not a good cook?" No, obviously I'll have to figure it out. It doesn't seem all that difficult. It's like just because she's done that doesnt mean I can't. In other words, she doesn't mow the lawn, but it doesn't mean she couldnt if she had to.
> 
> I am very much into the week to week thing. Passing kids around every few days or, sweet Jesus, bringing them over my house every night just to sleep, seems completely unstable for the kids.


There's lots of options, for younger kids the 3, 2, 2 option can work or 5, 2 or the full week. It's good to have consistency in whatever you do though, so the kids know what to expect. Her idea of keeping them after school and bringing them before bed is completely unrealistic, f*cked up and probably to ensure that she doesn't have to get a real job because she's watching the kids. Maybe Mrs. Robinson can babysit her new bf at the same time as the kids?

There's tons of easy recipes for single dads (and moms) around and there's always Jimmy John's!


----------



## Lilac23

gridcom said:


> She complained to me yesterday that she didnt have enough money to pay for her EZPass and she had to go to Long Island yesterday and use the CASH lane. I just said "poor you".


:crying: 

Oh, my! I guess you can't actually live on (adulterous) love. :soapbox:


----------



## Lilac23

Chuck71 said:


> I hate parrots! But not parrotheads...... aka Jimmy Buffet


Birds in general are creepy, like rats without the tail.


----------



## Lilac23

gridcom said:


> Nice post.
> 
> I am not apologizing anymore for anything, even if it's wrong. The other day, when I went to my lawyer, I forgot she had to work a day shift. When I found out out the night before, I told her I had somewhere to be. She was all panicked. She ended up taking the kids to her job where they sat for an hour. When she got home, she was mad that I did it. I told her, similar to how she's felt over the last few months, I know what I did was wrong, and I should apologize, but I'm not going to because, frankly, I'm not sorry.
> 
> She's had enough apologies from me to last a lifetime.


:yay: :allhail: :toast: 

I really love when the "don't give a sh!t" stage of grief begins.


----------



## Thundarr

Lilac23 said:


> How can you hate dogs?!?!?! SMH....  :surprise: :scratchhead:
> 
> 
> Chuck71 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I hate parrots! But not parrotheads...... aka Jimmy Buffet
Click to expand...

I know. No one can hate dogs (confused, surprise, scratchhead). But I think cats are cool too accept none of them like me. Parrots are cool but they are lots of work and L O U D and demanding.


----------



## Lilac23

Thundarr said:


> I know. No one can hate dogs (confused, surprise, scratchhead). But I think cats are cool too accept none of them like me. Parrots are cool but they are lots of work and L O U D and demanding.


It's hard to bond with cats, they seem to disdain humans and only deign to let us feed them and clean out the litterbox.


----------



## Lilac23

gridcom said:


> I have a valid reason but it's irrelevant.


I feel it's very relevant to the current discussion.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

bandit.45 said:


> Until they sneak up on you sleeping one night, and suck your soul out through your nostrils.


Omg!, You are cracking me up!! with the cat comments


----------



## gridcom

Lilac23 said:


> gridcom said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a valid reason but it's irrelevant.
> 
> 
> 
> I feel it's very relevant to the current discussion.
Click to expand...

Ok. Let's say I grew up with an untrained dog who's consistent ability to "get loose" for the duration of my 11-18 years of age wrecked havoc on my schedule and social life.


----------



## Chuck71

Thundarr said:


> I know. No one can hate dogs (confused, surprise, scratchhead). But I think cats are cool too accept none of them like me. Parrots are cool but they are lots of work and L O U D and demanding.


Sounds like my XW, when she barked out instructions in bed while corn chips and pretzels 

were flying out of her mouth. It was difficult, the lop sided mattress didn't help!

Tell me again why I don't miss Window Cork?

*wink*


----------



## lifeistooshort

Lilac23 said:


> I hate cats.


Well grid likes them and I got a kitten today.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lilac23

lifeistooshort said:


> Well grid likes them and I got a kitten today.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Bandit.45 doesn't like them either.


----------



## Lilac23

gridcom said:


> Ok. Let's say I grew up with an untrained dog who's consistent ability to "get loose" for the duration of my 11-18 years of age wrecked havoc on my schedule and social life.


Blame-shifting.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Lilac23 said:


> Bandit.45 doesn't like them either.


Bandit can take that up with me himself. 

I can handle him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lilac23

lifeistooshort said:


> Bandit can take that up with me himself.
> 
> I can handle him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Cats are so creepy and there's no spontaneous affection. A dog is happy to see you when you get home and runs up and jumps on you. A cat might throw a glance your way and slide past you in the hallway so you can scratch an itch, but there's no real relationship. Completely one sided!


----------



## Lilac23

Or you wake up in the middle of the night and their nasty a$$ is right by your face.


----------



## Lilac23

They think they're graceful but they constantly knock stuff on tables or the counter over.


----------



## turnera

Lilac23 said:


> Cats are so creepy and there's no spontaneous affection. A dog is happy to see you when you get home and runs up and jumps on you. A cat might throw a glance your way and slide past you in the hallway so you can scratch an itch, but there's no real relationship. Completely one sided!


That's ridiculous. My cats come running when they see me. I have to push them OFF of me. I have to throw them off the bed at night because they want to snuggle. My cats seek out my hands so that they put themselves underneath my hands so I can pet them, and then they purr like crazy.

Sounds like you didn't grow up with cats.


----------



## Lilac23

I did, actually! We had two!


----------



## turnera

Lilac23 said:


> I did, actually! We had two!


Then you had the only two unlike the dozen or so that I've had in my life.


----------



## Lilac23

I didn't dislike them as a child, it's a more recent occurrence. My sister has two and I was forced to spend a week with them several times in recent years...ugh.


----------



## just got it 55

gridcom said:


> I have a valid reason but it's irrelevant. What is relevant is all of you, to me
> 
> Here's to 2016. "It can't possibly be worse than 2015".
> 
> Merry New Year


Remember Grid your a Mets fan right ?

Happy New year 

That goes for the rest of you losers as well :grin2:

j/k

55


----------



## bandit.45

Lilac23 said:


> Bandit.45 doesn't like them either.


I don't hate cats 


I just want to know where they are at all times.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lilac23

bandit.45 said:


> I don't hate cats
> 
> 
> I just want to know where they are at all times.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I profoundly dislike them.


----------



## farsidejunky

gridcom said:


> Ok. Let's say I grew up with an untrained dog who's consistent ability to "get loose" for the duration of my 11-18 years of age wrecked havoc on my schedule and social life.


Look at the bright side, Grid.

You could have had a dog that loved you, played with you, demonstrated the utmost loyalty to you...until she decided it was a good idea to deliver the 8th of weed under your bed to your parents...

That actually happened...


----------



## gridcom

Ugh. Total drag. Once I made this thread private, I kept a close eye on any new signups to the site, especially one's who were "forum supporters". Also, people who visited my personal page. There was one who signed up the same day I went private, Blueinbr, and this person has done nothing but check my site and this thread. Maybe it's the STBXW. Interesting, if so. I'm sure Gus wouldn't be surprised.

How can I make this thread by invite only?


----------



## happy as a clam

Bummer. I think you could start a private "group" and invite regulars to join. Or folks who want to join could PM you as well. Just make sure not to let unknown newbies in!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## just got it 55

gridcom said:


> Ugh. Total drag. Once I made this thread private, I kept a close eye on any new signups to the site, especially one's who were "forum supporters". Also, people who visited my personal page. There was one who signed up the same day I went private, Blueinbr, and this person has done nothing but check my site and this thread. Maybe it's the STBXW. Interesting, if so. I'm sure Gus wouldn't be surprised.
> 
> How can I make this thread by invite only?


Yup Signed up on 12/29 0 posts and went straight to your thread

If this poster is TS how would she know it is you ?

BTW I sent you a PM

55


----------



## gridcom

There have been a few people I have given this link to. I gave the link to my STBXW way back in late August if I recall, and I mentioned it's existence again at some point in Oct(ish). I also gave it to my sister and two other friends at various points. None of them with strong ties to my STBXW (if you're thinking I wanted it getting back to her). I mean, I don't have anything to hide at all, and a big part of me doesn't care who see's this as it is life, you know?

And the people I told about it, I trust.

It could also be someone on my STBXW's side who maybe she gave the link to (thinking her evil friend who works for her lawyer, maybe?) who wanted to keep access

If it's actually my STBXW, then I'll be honest it bothers me. Why would she be reading this and how could she possibly behave the way she does with all the very pointed and accurate conversations happening here?

It sucks because I don't want to make it private, but I may have to do that. I only made it private to begin with because I was leaving the "how to get my wife and I on the same page" phase and into the "legal/lawyer/advice" phase, and I wanted to be safe as I didnt know for sure.

No, I am not going to say anything to her about it.


----------



## ButtPunch

Grid

She's been reading it the whole time. Private group and invite people. That's what Zillard had to do. 

Glad I'm out of tam jail.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## just got it 55

ButtPunch said:


> Grid
> 
> She's been reading it the whole time. Private group and invite people. That's what Zillard had to do.
> 
> Glad I'm out of tam jail.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Then wipe that smile of your face tough guy:grin2:

Nice to see you back BP

55


----------



## gridcom

I sent Blueinbr a personal message, and I will wait for a response before going invite only. But in the meantime, BLUEINBR, why don't you join in on the conversation here? Everybody would love to hear what you have to say. Your opinion matters!!!


Or call me if it's someone else.


----------



## gridcom

ButtPunch said:


> Grid
> 
> She's been reading it the whole time. Private group and invite people. That's what Zillard had to do.
> 
> Glad I'm out of tam jail.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Quick question here. How do you end up in "TAM jail"?


----------



## farsidejunky

By breaking the forum rules.

TAM jail is a ban.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## ButtPunch

farsidejunky said:


> By breaking the forum rules.
> 
> TAM jail is a ban.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


More like saying something a moderator doesn't like.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

TAM Jail= Temporaryor permanent 
Ban.


----------



## LongWalk

I've been banned twice. Once deserved. Once not IMO. Think twice before clicking publish.

blueinbr is a forum supporter, which means they have paid to skip over posting enough times to gain access to the Private Members Section.

If Tomato Soup were to pop up, I would hope that everyone would be polite and simply ask for her side of the story. TAM has a bad record of taking it out on wayward spouses and it's not positive for anyone.


----------



## just got it 55

phillybeffandswiss said:


> TAM Jail= Temporaryor permanent
> Ban.


AKA as Bullwinkle use to call it 

The Gulag :surprise:

55


----------



## Tron

Should be easy enough to see if it's her. How is the membership being paid for? Sorry to say you are probably paying for her ability to spy on you too.

Would not recommend discussing legal strategy any more.

Dammit those nosy wives...


----------



## ButtPunch

LongWalk said:


> I've been banned twice. Once deserved. Once not IMO. Think twice before clicking publish.
> 
> blueinbr is a forum supporter, which means they have paid to skip over posting enough times to gain access to the Private Members Section.
> 
> If Tomato Soup were to pop up, I would hope that everyone would be polite and simply ask for her side of the story. TAM has a bad record of taking it out on wayward spouses and it's not positive for anyone.


She's just trolling to stay one step ahead of Grid.

Looking for ammo she can further hurt him with.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soccermom2three

LOL, you gave her the link to this thread to read it, why would she stop reading? I certainly would continue reading. I'm sure others would too. If the parties were reversed, you would too. Why are you weirding out?


----------



## JohnA

blueinbr, grid any idea what this could mean ? Perhaps "blue in br"


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Blue in broth.

She's tiring of soup already?:wink2:


----------



## ThreeStrikes

soccermom2three said:


> LOL, you gave her the link to this thread to read it, why would she stop reading? I certainly would continue reading. I'm sure others would too. If the parties were reversed, you would too. Why are you weirding out?


In grid's world, everyone thinks and behaves the way he thinks they should.

Hence his stubborness, naivete, and reluctance to follow advice. 

Ouch, was that harsh?


----------



## just got it 55

JohnA said:


> blueinbr, grid any idea what this could mean ? Perhaps "blue in br"


I googles Blueinbr and it came up on @weightlifters profile page

Interesting no?



55


----------



## Chuck71

Northern Monkey had to get a closed thread as well about three years back. Wasn't his XW "happiernow"

I would leave the thread here BUT I'm not in your shoes Grid. You have a lot on the line.

Being safe and going closed thread may be best for you. As per the invites... could a TAM mod 

run your thread where it shows what poster posted x amount of times? Anyone who has posted over x amount,

gets an invite. Yet a newcomer to your thread who wants to offer advice could be "left out in the cold."

If you decide to do a limited invite, I stress balance it with male and female posters.

Right before Zillard and his XW hit the rocks again, I mentioned two separate closed threads, one for Z, another for

his XW... 6-8 people in each, gendered evenly. Z was never approached because his XW shut down

completely. I'd be glad to recommend who if you decided the closed and limited thread.... BTW... I would not

include myself as recommended.


----------



## JohnA

Also in regards to female posters do not hesitate to reach out and invite them to join a private thread. 

Again, if get electrics checked for spyware. If you go closed thread do not announce it. Keep this thread going with occasional posts.


----------



## LongWalk

I wouldn't get all wound up. If she has been reading all this time, there aren't so many secrets. Cut out the legal discussion. Set up a private group for that.

Grid, 

The key here is not to move out. If she is so in love with Mr Spotify, let her go live with him. If she is happy there, you'll settle faster. If she regrets it, she'll be asking you to go to MC again.

Also, with regards to being a single dad, is it hard to cook and take care of the kids alone? It doesn't have to hard.

Feed them, play game and read stories.

Italians are genetically good cooks. Kids like spaghetti and meat sauce, but some vegetables in it.


----------



## 225985

This is blueinbr. I am a complete newbie to this site and did not even know sites like this existed. M/late 40's. Just had similar situation with infidelity happen very recently within my 23 yr marriage - no kids though, fortunately. Having obsessive thoughts, can't sleep, checking phone constantly, etc. Doctor put me on anti-depressant. Found Grids story and am finding strength in myself from his strength in fighting for his family. Starting reading Not Just Friends and MMSLP. Forgive any breach of site etiquette. First ever post to a site like this. br=Baton Rouge.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Welcome to the party, blue.


----------



## gridcom

Blueinbr, sorry your introduction here had to be via me thinking you were this crazy lady sitting about 10 feet from me right now. 

I was shocked today when this happened because I really was convinced my wife could care less for this thread and this site. The only comment she made about this place, way back in Sept, was insulting and dismissive. Plus, as weird as it sounds, I am absolutely sure I would have been able to tell. She doesn't have a poker face like that, at all


----------



## Duguesclin

gridcom said:


> Blueinbr, sorry your introduction here had to be via me thinking you were this crazy lady sitting about 10 feet from me right now.
> 
> I was shocked today when this happened because I really was convinced my wife could care less for this thread and this site. The only comment she made about this place, way back in Sept, was insulting and dismissive. Plus, as weird as it sounds, I am absolutely sure I would have been able to tell. She doesn't have a poker face like that, at all


Try not to be paranoid. This attitude may have been a big contributor to driving your wife away.


----------



## ButtPunch

Duguesclin said:


> Try not to be paranoid. This attitude may have been a big contributor to driving your wife away.


LMAO.....Grid don't take the bait.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## gridcom

Duguesclin said:


> Try not to be paranoid. This attitude may have been a big contributor to driving your wife away.


Yeah. No.

When I make the thread private and then the same day someone signs onto a paid account, doesn't post and follows only my thread, that's not paranoia.


----------



## Chuck71

Duguesclin said:


> Try not to be paranoid. This attitude may have been a big contributor to driving your wife away.


I thought his previous attitude was where he kissed her arse and took all the blame.

And that got him where?


----------



## cbnero

Grid. Tomato Soup is flushing her marriage down the drain for a barista. Do you really think that she cares at this point or is even close to being smart enough to do what you describe? 

Don't let your paranoia run wild. If there is one thing I've learned about cheating spouses - they are cowards and idiots.


----------



## bandit.45

Duguesclin said:


> Try not to be paranoid. This attitude may have been a big contributor to driving your wife away.


Isn't Duguesclin a Romanian word for "I talk out of my azz"?


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

gridcom said:


> Yeah. No.
> 
> When I make the thread private and then the same day someone signs onto a paid account, doesn't post and follows only my thread, that's not paranoia.


I think your concern was reasonable. But what was the concern, exactly? 

You are going for 50/50 everything, right? Sounds pretty reasonable and standard. I don't see what your wife would see here that she does not already know. And I doubt she has any interest in reading TAM.

I understand that it is hard to wait for the divorce to be finished. But it will come. And the more you can relax in the meantime, while sticking to the 50/50 standard, the easier the wait will be.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

The straw man logical fallacy onslaught is about to be reignited. Be prepared grid, the blame you torch has been passed; gird your loins.


----------



## TeddieG

just got it 55 said:


> Then wipe that smile of your face tough guy:grin2:
> 
> Nice to see you back BP
> 
> 55


Yes, VERY nice to see you back!


----------



## TeddieG

ThreeStrikes said:


> Welcome to the party, blue.


Ditto. There's a nice place, if you check "forums," to start new threads of introduction and tell us about yourself. Or you could just jump right in on one of the forums that seems to apply and tell us more, if you're comfortable doing so. Or both.


----------



## LongWalk

bandit.45 said:


> Isn't Duguesclin a Romanian word for "I talk out of my azz"?
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Come on, Bandit. Unnecessary.

We don't need more bans. Won't help, Grid.

Grid,

Keep things simple. Write whatever you want here, outside of sensitive legal stuff. If Tomato Soup is reading, well, let her read. You've made friends of strangers on the Internet. Not every thread gets attention. Let her wonder why folks are bucking for you.

Keep your IRL interaction with her calm and principled.

ReGroup's ex wanted to leave the court and go on a date with him, the betrayed ex husband she called an azz nozzle. He detached and got out of a messed relationship.

When your life has moral order and self respect, you won't need Tomato Soup. She will just be the mother of your two kids.


----------



## TeddieG

gridcom said:


> Yeah. No.
> 
> When I make the thread private and then the same day someone signs onto a paid account, doesn't post and follows only my thread, that's not paranoia.


Grid, agreed. No sooner than make this thread private and starting disclosing important things you discussed with your attorney. . . there's no harm in being cautious, in my opinion. We have all been on you to convince you to be more cautious, after all.


----------



## just got it 55

blueinbr said:


> This is blueinbr. I am a complete newbie to this site and did not even know sites like this existed. M/late 40's. Just had similar situation with infidelity happen very recently within my 23 yr marriage - no kids though, fortunately. Having obsessive thoughts, can't sleep, checking phone constantly, etc. Doctor put me on anti-depressant. Found Grids story and am finding strength in myself from his strength in fighting for his family. Starting reading Not Just Friends and MMSLP. Forgive any breach of site etiquette. First ever post to a site like this. br=Baton Rouge.


As Rosanna Rosanadana said

Never Mind :wink2:

Sorry you are here Bud

Start a thread and get good advice you came to the right place

55


----------



## truster

Grid, when discussing your wife's potential custody 'plan', you mentioned that her justification is that you couldn't handle dinner and homework, etc. We both know that's not true, but now is the perfect time to start getting involved in these things. "I *am* doing these things" is a lot better of an argument than "I *can* do these things" (especially to a judge), and it will help the kids transition that much more smoothly. Plus, these are activities that are structured enough to occupy your mind and give you extra quality time with the loved ones. Have them be your sous chefs while cooking dinner -- my little one loves to 'help', even though he's too young to do much other than get in the way.


----------



## Chuck71

LongWalk said:


> Come on, Bandit. Unnecessary.
> 
> We don't need more bans. Won't help, Grid.
> 
> Grid,
> 
> Keep things simple. Write whatever you want here, outside of sensitive legal stuff. If Tomato Soup is reading, well, let her read. You've made friends of strangers on the Internet. Not every thread gets attention. Let her wonder why folks are bucking for you.
> 
> Keep your IRL interaction with her calm and principled.
> 
> ReGroup's ex wanted to leave the court and go on a date with him, the betrayed ex husband she called an azz nozzle. He detached and got out of a messed relationship.
> 
> When your life has moral order and self respect, you won't need Tomato Soup. She will just be the mother of your two kids.


So was dug's backhanded negative comment. Very uncalled for....


----------



## GusPolinski

gridcom said:


> Ugh. Total drag. Once I made this thread private, I kept a close eye on any new signups to the site, especially one's who were "forum supporters". Also, people who visited my personal page. There was one who signed up the same day I went private, Blueinbr, and this person has done nothing but check my site and this thread. Maybe it's the STBXW. Interesting, if so. I'm sure Gus wouldn't be surprised.
> 
> How can I make this thread by invite only?


Hmm...

Perhaps a mod could have a look at the IPs used by yourself as well as blueinbr.


----------



## farsidejunky

gridcom said:


> Yeah. No.
> 
> When I make the thread private and then the same day someone signs onto a paid account, doesn't post and follows only my thread, that's not paranoia.


Just because you are paranoid doesn't mean she's not out to get you...



Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

Lilac23 said:


> Cats are so creepy and there's no spontaneous affection. A dog is happy to see you when you get home and runs up and jumps on you. A cat might throw a glance your way and slide past you in the hallway so you can scratch an itch, but there's no real relationship. Completely one sided!


Cats don't like you, because you don't like cats and they're smart enough to know it.

When I was a kid I had a cat that would attack our dog when the dog and I were rolling around on the ground roughhousing. The cat thought the dog was hurting me, so he'd attack the dog.

My Mother had a Siamese cat that would actually go to the bathroom on the toilet. During the Winters the cat either had to do it business outside, in the snow, or inside in a littler box. It didn't like the feel of the litter on it's paws and figured out, on it's own, that the toilet was a viable alternative for cat litter, or snow(and no, it didn't flush afterwards).

Five years ago we had a hurricane come through the North East. The winds never gusted past 70 mph, but there was a deluge of rain. Enough to loosen the dirt around a 110 foot oak tree that had grown over a buried boulder.

I was laying on the couch with the cat. He suddenly perks up and starts looking in the direction of the tree, while meowing. I couldn't hear it, but the cat could feel the shock waves of the root giving way.

I sat up and because of the warning he gave me I saw the tree starting to tip towards the house. When the tree came though and took of the corner of the house, the cat and I were already running for the door.

The tree came in about 3 feet from where my feet were while laying on the couch, so had I been sleeping and not run, I wouldn't have been hurt. BUT, because of that cat, I was in full stride, running out of the living room when the corner of the house was crushed. So if it had been on it's way to where I'd been laying, I wouldn't have been there when it came through the ceiling.

Bottom line is, your pets are like any other relationship you'll have. You'll only get out of one what you've put into one. Ole Fido ain't gonna just run into a burning building, or jump in front of a bullet to save his master just because it's his/her master. Like anything else worth having, it's earned.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

LongWalk said:


> Come on, Bandit. Unnecessary.
> 
> We don't need more bans. Won't help, Grid.


TAMers who speak the truth tend to get banned the most. 

Funny how you go back and read old threads...all those fantastic posters of yore are now perma-banned.

Long live Conrad, Shaggy, Mach, et al. 

Guess we're stuck with this watered-down version of TAM.


----------



## Chaparral

Lilac23 said:


> Cats are so creepy and there's no spontaneous affection. A dog is happy to see you when you get home and runs up and jumps on you. A cat might throw a glance your way and slide past you in the hallway so you can scratch an itch, but there's no real relationship. Completely one sided!


Okay, that's enough. It depends on the breed.

My cat, A long haired Siamese is so loving to everyone its like family. Our last black cat would bite you when it was done with you petting it. The damn thing lived fifteen years.

Our mini schnauzer is like a sweet child but smarter and well behaved and easily trained. Our German shepherds were smart obedient and easily trained. They live to shepherd, I.E. take care of you and others.

Beagles are just waiting to turn on someone and bite them in the back of the leg. Pit bulls are just waiting to turn on anything and kill it. Hunting dogs and retrievers may be sweet but are just stupid and may eat anything including rocks, socks boots, and furniture. Fortunately, when you take your eye off them they disappear into the woods and get eaten by coyotes.>:crying:


----------



## Chuck71

ThreeStrikes said:


> TAMers who speak the truth tend to get banned the most.
> 
> Funny how you go back and read old threads...all those fantastic posters of yore are now perma-banned.
> 
> Long live Conrad, Shaggy, Mach, et al.
> 
> Guess we're stuck with this watered-down version of TAM.


When I first came here in late '12, one thing I learned quick was

"We will not tell you what you want to hear, we will tell you what

you need to hear." Conrad even made a thread about it. I made a 

comment on my LaD thread saying roughly the same thing 3X is, back 

in the summer. I saw what the TAM greats did for posters. My two D

threads covered two months total. Most threads cover a lot longer time.

I call certain people TAM greats not for what they did for me but what I saw

them do for others. They're gone....even though they left a great legacy but

have been replaced with some who leave a post filled with negativity.

Just like I told my STBXGF over a year ago, as I would question certain

comments on my thread if I were a current OP on TAM... "Are you here to

help me or hinder me?"


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

I believe some people use these threads as an experiment to fix their own marital problems, but don't realize the damage they can do to the OP. They are too scared to create their own thread and ask for help. No, I am not talking bout the posters who say "OMG, this is so similar to me."


----------



## JohnA

Hi Grid sorry if this is becoming a bit thread jack. 

Hi @Chuck71,

I have created a Bookmark folder for TAM with a sub folder titled resources in it on my iPad. I book mark response that I think can offer great clarity. For eample I booked F-102 breakdown of how an EA or PA starts. When I post I put a link to it and advise person to scroll down to it. http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/41508-emotional-affairs-sob-story.html

I did the same for bandits post on the 180: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...-does-not-know-if-she-wants-stay-married.html

I have just begun to look into Comard based on your comments. So for example I have booked mark one of Conard's threads on the concept of being nice http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-through-divorce-separation/44246-should-you-nice.html

Can you provide more ?

By linking to great posts in threads on a subject the OP needs to consider I hope it help them get 50K.


----------



## JohnA

PS: grid these threads I linked to could be a great help to you.


----------



## MattMatt

3


ThreeStrikes said:


> TAMers who speak the truth tend to get banned the most.
> 
> Funny how you go back and read old threads...all those fantastic posters of yore are now perma-banned.
> 
> Long live Conrad, Shaggy, Mach, et al.
> 
> Guess we're stuck with this watered-down version of TAM.


Shaggy asked for his ban. He wanted to quit TAM due to a troll who had taken a lot of people in. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

BW?


----------



## Lilac23

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> Cats don't like you, because you don't like cats and they're smart enough to know it.


I see things differently.


----------



## Lilac23

Chaparral said:


> Okay, that's enough. It depends on the breed.
> 
> My cat, A long haired Siamese is so loving to everyone its like family. Our last black cat would bite you when it was done with you petting it. The damn thing lived fifteen years.
> 
> Our mini schnauzer is like a sweet child but smarter and well behaved and easily trained. Our German shepherds were smart obedient and easily trained. They live to shepherd, I.E. take care of you and others.
> 
> Beagles are just waiting to turn on someone and bite them in the back of the leg. Pit bulls are just waiting to turn on anything and kill it. Hunting dogs and retrievers may be sweet but are just stupid and may eat anything including rocks, socks boots, and furniture. Fortunately, when you take your eye off them they disappear into the woods and get eaten by coyotes.>:crying:


I see things differently.


----------



## TeddieG

Lilac23 said:


> I see things differently.


I liked your posts, not because I care one way or the other about cats versus dogs, but because I think your response, or a similar response of, sorry you feel that way, is a great rejoinder to some posters. 

Grid, hope things are going well today.


----------



## MattMatt

farsidejunky said:


> BW?


The alleged British woman living in the USA.

She came back under a different ID and apologised. She was quickly banned and the post removed as it breached TAM rules.

She claimed she was a professional writer who came to TAM to do some "research" but "went too far."


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Some Conrad classics for Grid:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-through-divorce-separation/151138-being-part-club.html

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-through-divorce-separation/69908-war-stories.html

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-through-divorce-separation/74433-one-transaction-time.html

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-...111-vulnerable-boundaries-final-frontier.html

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-through-divorce-separation/43029-why-do-i-ask.html

That should get you started


----------



## Chuck71

ThreeStrikes said:


> Some Conrad classics for Grid:
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-through-divorce-separation/151138-being-part-club.html
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-through-divorce-separation/69908-war-stories.html
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-through-divorce-separation/74433-one-transaction-time.html
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-...111-vulnerable-boundaries-final-frontier.html
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-through-divorce-separation/43029-why-do-i-ask.html
> 
> That should get you started


If I had $1 every time I linked his old posts, I would be renting out villas in SoCal


----------



## just got it 55

Don't forget Fitness Test

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18347-fitness-tests.html

55


----------



## weightlifter

just got it 55 said:


> I googles Blueinbr and it came up on @weightlifters profile page
> 
> Interesting no?
> 
> 
> 
> 55


Scratch head. Huh?

You put what into google, how??? Huh?


----------



## Chuck71

WL.......... you can type in someone's handle on TAM and it shows up on google search.

That's how WSs find out what is said... by googling the handle, they can see everything the BS posts

without signing up as member.... unless in private section.


----------



## wmn1

Chuck71 said:


> So was dug's backhanded negative comment. Very uncalled for....



agreed completely


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Just read it as a poor joke and let it go. If he is serious, it means Dug read little to NONE of this thread and is arrogantly giving uninformed advice. Grid admitted what the "big contributing" factor was, multiple times and it wasn't paranoia.


----------



## Chuck71

Or jld and dug are "one in the same"

Never the less, completely tasteless, repulsive, derogatory and insipid


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Chuck71 said:


> Or jld and dug are "one in the same"
> 
> Never the less, completely tasteless, repulsive, derogatory and insipid


Agreed.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Chuck71 said:


> Never the less, completely tasteless, repulsive, derogatory and insipid


When I read that, this word-smith came to mind :grin2:


https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/3c/56/ed/3c56ed42c4e1c0821d760a1beeb46486.jpg


----------



## convert

just got it 55 said:


> I googles Blueinbr and it came up on @weightlifters profile page
> 
> Interesting no?
> 
> 
> 
> 55


Grid, check for VARs around your home office and your car (attached with velcro under the seat) >


----------



## Chuck71

If he does find a VAR.... have some fun with it. In my teens... mom was

bad about eavesdropping on my phone calls. I would always have a code word

if I suspected mom was listening. Whatever I said, they were to go along with it.

If it was a guy friend, we would talk about buying a kilo of coke (remember I was

15-16 at the time), I would sneak up behind mom, scare the schit out of her. If

it was a girl, we were running away together.... same outcome. What is one thing

your STBXW hates to hear / talk about? If you find a VAR.... it's dissertation time

for that subject.


----------



## Chuck71

ThreeStrikes said:


> When I read that, this word-smith came to mind :grin2:
> 
> 
> https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/3c/56/ed/3c56ed42c4e1c0821d760a1beeb46486.jpg


:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Downt let my big werds ensenuwayt inytheng (picture Mr. Haney from Green Acres)

Is juct a southern boy frum 10-a-c wyth en illiterate, unschooled, inerudite and lowbrow 

ntelijunse


----------



## Pluto2

Grid, how are you doing? My youngest is back in school this week, how about yours? Have you and TS told them about the divorce or are you waiting until physical custody is settled?


----------



## just got it 55

just got it 55 said:


> Don't forget Fitness Test
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18347-fitness-tests.html
> 
> 55


Found it

55


----------



## gridcom

Not much to report here. Trying to avoid each other, it's very difficult. Still need to be parents and manage the house. Every time I see her face I get overwhelmingly angry. I'm keeping to myself, though. It's been a very busy first week back to work. I have IC tomorrow.

She did ask me for money to fix her mothers car. We borrowed 8k from her mother in 2014, which I paid back in Dec of '14. Then, somewhere in 2015, she borrowed the 8k again to pay bills, etc. Her mother has no money, and this money was from the sale of a relatives house. 

So, her mothers car breaks down and she needs $700. I told her no. She said "we borrowed that money for bills, we owe her that money" I told her to prove to me where the money went. I figured it might have gone to her lawyer or who knows. She can't exactly prove it to me with paperwork.

Anyway, my attitude is anything she says may very well be a lie, and this position INFURIATES her. Her mother did call me, not angry but more like "why is this happening?" and I told her that her daughter is presently in an affair while living in the house and she told me 5 days prior that "it has nothing to do with you and you are irrelevant" and if I am so irrelevant, than that goes all the way around.

My wife then spoke to her mother and sent me a scathing e-mail along the lines of "Because I bought this guy a book that PROVES that I am f*cking him?" She absolutely insists the affair is only emotional, AND one sided. She swears up and down that he's not engaging her.

Anyway, I told her no and she's not too happy about it, neither is her mother.

What are going to do?

She also got a part time job today. T-W-TH 9-5 a few blocks up the street, $12 per hour. So now she's going to be working 44 hours a week, but no health insurance.


----------



## turnera

Ahh, poor baby. Life sucks, doesn't it?

meh, she's getting what she asked for, isn't she?

email to MIL: "Sorry, MIL, you know I love you, but your daughter has pulled me out of your life. I don't have the money to help you any more, as I have to pay for a lawyer to protect myself from your daughter. I wish you well."


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Sorry grid... I hope you get your girls as much as possible. This girl has no clue what it takes to be a responsible adult with a family.


----------



## just got it 55

Grid One phrase to add to your standard replies

No longer my problem

55


----------



## gridcom

just got it 55 said:


> Grid One phrase to add to your standard replies
> 
> No longer my problem
> 
> 55


Eh, part of me feels like that is partially my debt too and I should figure something out. Her mom is a sweet old lady and she doesnt deserve this. If the money was borrowed before the affair, which my wife says she can prove, I feel like I should pay a bit of it.

Honestly, I just want to implement being a pr*ck after being told _I'm irrelevant._

I may cave.


----------



## turnera

Let her PROVE IT first.


----------



## just got it 55

gridcom said:


> Eh, *part of me feels like that is partially my debt too and I should figure something out. * Her mom is a sweet old lady and she doesnt deserve this. If the money was borrowed before the affair, which my wife says she can prove, I feel like I should pay a bit of it.
> 
> Honestly, I just want to implement being a pr*ck after being told _I'm irrelevant._
> 
> I may cave.


Well if you feel the right thing to do is pay up.... then half would be your share not a penny more

55


----------



## gridcom

just got it 55 said:


> Well if you feel the right thing to do is pay up.... then half would be your share not a penny more
> 
> 55


Oh I started this DDP yoga thing and a very strict diet and I want to eat a bucket of Nutella so bad right now but I cant.


----------



## gridcom

Another story......

I had to go to a show on NYE. Three of my clients. 1850 people. Young ladies all over the place. I stayed at a hotel just 100 yards from the venue and the whole hotel was just a huge after party. This one girl who slings merch for one of the bands is being super friendly all night. This makes me uncomfortable. Not sure why, but as opposed to other people in my position at these events, I've always been really shy when it comes to woman who are friendly. I'm pretty unsocial/awkward unless I know you well. When I know you well, I'm like Louis CK but only 80% as able to say the disturbing things

Anyway, I'm trying to avoid this girl because at one point she came up and put her arm around my waist. I immediately thought "the manager of this client told this girl what's happening with me" because I did tell this manager and this arm around my waist is like WTF...

Anyway, a bunch of us walk back to the hotel after the show and when we get into the lobby everyone scatters. This girl asks me "Do you have any booze in your room?" and I said "Sorry, no" and got in the elevator without her and went to my room and hit the sack.


----------



## Thundarr

gridcom said:


> Eh, part of me feels like that is partially my debt too and I should figure something out. Her mom is a sweet old lady and she doesnt deserve this. If the money was borrowed before the affair, which my wife says she can prove, I feel like I should pay a bit of it.
> 
> Honestly, I just want to implement being a pr*ck after being told _I'm irrelevant._
> 
> I may cave.


Do today what you will be proud of tomorrow. I'm not saying to help MIL or not help MIL. I'm saying to go 30,000 ft up and look down and decide what to do without the raw emotion clouding things.


----------



## farsidejunky

gridcom said:


> Not much to report here. Trying to avoid each other, it's very difficult. Still need to be parents and manage the house. Every time I see her face I get overwhelmingly angry. I'm keeping to myself, though. It's been a very busy first week back to work. I have IC tomorrow.
> 
> She did ask me for money to fix her mothers car. We borrowed 8k from her mother in 2014, which I paid back in Dec of '14. Then, somewhere in 2015, she borrowed the 8k again to pay bills, etc. Her mother has no money, and this money was from the sale of a relatives house.
> 
> So, her mothers car breaks down and she needs $700. I told her no. She said "we borrowed that money for bills, we owe her that money" I told her to prove to me where the money went. I figured it might have gone to her lawyer or who knows. She can't exactly prove it to me with paperwork.
> 
> Anyway, my attitude is anything she says may very well be a lie, and this position INFURIATES her. Her mother did call me, not angry but more like "why is this happening?" and I told her that her daughter is presently in an affair while living in the house and she told me 5 days prior that "it has nothing to do with you and you are irrelevant" and if I am so irrelevant, than that goes all the way around.
> 
> My wife then spoke to her mother and sent me a scathing e-mail along the lines of "Because I bought this guy a book that PROVES that I am f*cking him?" She absolutely insists the affair is only emotional, AND one sided. She swears up and down that he's not engaging her.
> 
> Anyway, I told her no and she's not too happy about it, neither is her mother.
> 
> What are going to do?
> 
> She also got a part time job today. T-W-TH 9-5 a few blocks up the street, $12 per hour. So now she's going to be working 44 hours a week, but no health insurance.


Well done, Grid. 

Choices have consequences.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## farsidejunky

gridcom said:


> Oh I started this DDP yoga thing and a very strict diet and I want to eat a bucket of Nutella so bad right now but I cant.


Do you like the DDP? My co worker swears by it.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## farsidejunky

gridcom said:


> Another story......
> 
> I had to go to a show on NYE. Three of my clients. 1850 people. Young ladies all over the place. I stayed at a hotel just 100 yards from the venue and the whole hotel was just a huge after party. This one girl who slings merch for one of the bands is being super friendly all night. This makes me uncomfortable. Not sure why, but as opposed to other people in my position at these events, I've always been really shy when it comes to woman who are friendly. I'm pretty unsocial/awkward unless I know you well. When I know you well, I'm like Louis CK but only 80% as able to say the disturbing things
> 
> Anyway, I'm trying to avoid this girl because at one point she came up and put her arm around my waist. I immediately thought "the manager of this client told this girl what's happening with me" because I did tell this manager and this arm around my waist is like WTF...
> 
> Anyway, a bunch of us walk back to the hotel after the show and when we get into the lobby everyone scatters. This girl asks me "Do you have any booze in your room?" and I said "Sorry, no" and got in the elevator without her and went to my room and hit the sack.


Well done on this as well. Honor your vows even if she doesnt.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## gridcom

farsidejunky said:


> Well done on this as well. Honor your vows even if she doesnt.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I can honestly tell you I would have likely done the same thing if I was single. The thought of being with someone else (as opposed to THINKING/IMAGING being with someone else) is hard to fathom


----------



## gridcom

farsidejunky said:


> Do you like the DDP? My co worker swears by it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I've only done it a few days. I would say that if you can get fit with DDP Yoga being your sole exercise, that would be quite an accomplishment. It was much easier than an Elliptical machine, but my heart rate was in the right zone for doing what I felt like was not very strenuous work. Apparently, thats the goal

Oh, and not eating Nutella.:wink2:


----------



## Thundarr

gridcom said:


> Another story......
> 
> I had to go to a show on NYE. Three of my clients. 1850 people. Young ladies all over the place. I stayed at a hotel just 100 yards from the venue and the whole hotel was just a huge after party. This one girl who slings merch for one of the bands is being super friendly all night. This makes me uncomfortable. Not sure why, but as opposed to other people in my position at these events, I've always been really shy when it comes to woman who are friendly. I'm pretty unsocial/awkward unless I know you well. When I know you well, I'm like Louis CK but only 80% as able to say the disturbing things
> 
> Anyway, I'm trying to avoid this girl because at one point she came up and put her arm around my waist. I immediately thought "the manager of this client told this girl what's happening with me" because I did tell this manager and this arm around my waist is like WTF...
> 
> Anyway, a bunch of us walk back to the hotel after the show and when we get into the lobby everyone scatters. This girl asks me "Do you have any booze in your room?" and I said "Sorry, no" and got in the elevator without her and went to my room and hit the sack.


Who knows Grid, she might have known that you're going though stuff because her manager told her. Still it feels good to think that someone else wants you when the person who's supposed want you has checked out. I'm glad you said 'sorry no though.


----------



## farsidejunky

gridcom said:


> I've only done it a few days. I would say that if you can get fit with DDP Yoga being your sole exercise, that would be quite an accomplishment. It was much easier than an Elliptical machine, but my heart rate was in the right zone for doing what I felt like was not very strenuous work. Apparently, thats the goal
> 
> Oh, and not eating Nutella.:wink2:


I spent 20 years beating up my body in the Army, so I am considering it for an ailing back. Tricare does not cover chiropractors...

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## turnera

Nothing better for bad backs than yoga...


----------



## Lilac23

gridcom said:


> My wife then spoke to her mother and sent me a scathing e-mail along the lines of "Because I bought this guy a book that PROVES that I am f*cking him?" She absolutely insists the affair is only emotional, AND one sided. She swears up and down that he's not engaging her.


No, her f#cking him in a car in the parking lot proves she's f#cking him.




gridcom said:


> She also got a part time job today. T-W-TH 9-5 a few blocks up the street, $12 per hour. So now she's going to be working 44 hours a week, but no health insurance.


Can't she get a better job than that?


----------



## Lilac23

gridcom said:


> Eh, part of me feels like that is partially my debt too and I should figure something out. Her mom is a sweet old lady and she doesnt deserve this. If the money was borrowed before the affair, which my wife says she can prove, I feel like I should pay a bit of it.
> 
> Honestly, I just want to implement being a pr*ck after being told _I'm irrelevant._
> 
> I may cave.


If you give her any money, give it directly to her mother, not for her to pass on.


----------



## gridcom

Lilac23 said:


> Can't she get a better job than that?


I dont know what the problem is with that. I guess she wants to stay local, and there isnt many full time jobs locally for 42 year old woman who's college dregree is in Musicology. Her last real full time job was running a box office at a Theatre, but there isnt a ton of Theatre's around here the one's that are around, she's gone on interviews because I asked them to speak with her, but those slots are filled.

I'm sure she could get a full time job that doesn't fulfill her. Her main job, with the POSOM, she makes like $21.50 an hour but only works 24 hours a week


----------



## ButtPunch

Grid

You are in the middle of a divorce.

Bank is closed.

Tell Starbucks to fork over the money.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lilac23

gridcom said:


> I dont know what the problem is with that. I guess she wants to stay local, and there isnt many full time jobs locally for 42 year old woman who's college dregree is in Musicology. Her last real full time job was running a box office at a Theatre, but there isnt a ton of Theatre's around here the one's that are around, she's gone on interviews because I asked them to speak with her, but those slots are filled.
> 
> I'm sure she could get a full time job that doesn't fulfill her. Her main job, with the POSOM, she makes like $21.50 an hour but only works 24 hours a week


Maybe she should move...:wink2:


----------



## eric1

I'd pay back her mom after the divorce. I agree with you that you share some burden at some moral level. And at the end of the day you have to be able to look at that guy in the mirror.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Blossom Leigh

gridcom said:


> I dont know what the problem is with that. I guess she wants to stay local, and there isnt many full time jobs locally for 42 year old woman who's college dregree is in Musicology. Her last real full time job was running a box office at a Theatre, but there isnt a ton of Theatre's around here the one's that are around, she's gone on interviews because I asked them to speak with her, but those slots are filled.
> 
> I'm sure she could get a full time job that doesn't fulfill her. Her main job, with the POSOM, she makes like $21.50 an hour but only works 24 hours a week


What the hell is a musicology degree? I hope she didn't go into debt for that...


----------



## gridcom

Blossom Leigh said:


> What the hell is a musicology degree? I hope she didn't go into debt for that...


Haha, she sure did. This has been/was a sort of sore subject over the years. 

What I've learned in the aftermath of the affair is.... When you are married to someone who has a degree in Musicology, the exact thing not to do is say "What the hell is a musicology degree?"

The cynical me is going to say....a degree in Musicology is being able to hear classical or operatic music and tell what century it's from and what country. They can also tell you what note you are hitting without looking 

Her ending up working at a theatre is sort of akin to a college wrestler becoming a gym teacher


----------



## ReturntoZero

gridcom said:


> I dont know what the problem is with that. I guess she wants to stay local, and there isnt many full time jobs locally for 42 year old woman who's college dregree is in Musicology. Her last real full time job was running a box office at a Theatre, but there isnt a ton of Theatre's around here the one's that are around, she's gone on interviews because I asked them to speak with her, but those slots are filled.
> 
> I'm sure she could get a full time job that doesn't fulfill her. Her main job, with the POSOM, she makes like $21.50 an hour but only works 24 hours a week


What a great plan!


----------



## Blossom Leigh

gridcom said:


> Haha, she sure did. This has been/was a sort of sore subject over the years.
> 
> What I've learned in the aftermath of the affair is.... When you are married to someone who has a degree in Musicology, the exact thing not to do is say "What the hell is a musicology degree?"
> 
> The cynical me is going to say....a degree in Musicology is being able to hear classical or operatic music and tell what century it's from and what country. They can also tell you what note you are hitting without looking
> 
> Her ending up working at a theatre is sort of akin to a college wrestler becoming a gym teacher


Lol... Ahhh.. gotcha. Did she get a PhD? Did she have a plan for it? 

She could tutor music and make more jack than what she is doing now... This screams lazy to me.


----------



## JohnA

Hi Grid, 

On an earlier post you mentioned your WW thought she would get custody because she was home more and did more around the house. She now however works two part time jobs. One which is durning the day 9-5 for a total of 24 hours. The other which is evenings 3 days a week for 24 hours. Both jobs combined are 48 hours weekly with a combined grosses just over 750 a week, on those weeks she actually works those hours. 

Now is a great time to step up your efforts around the house to help you get more custody time with your daughter. How does her increase earnings help you with spouse support. 

I suggested this before, but have you given any thought to the possiblity that there is another man in the background? You mentioned she was very active in her church and community groups. I just don't see her in (what is now) a one way EA. It seems to me giving everything she has said and done then if it is not him, it is somebody else. 

One last question. How are you doing at leaning to manage your anger and frustrations ? 

Take care - John


----------



## Chaparral

I think you should open a private line of communication with MIL. Her heart is probably breaking too. Of course that's assuming you were close to her. She should not be punished for her daughter's stupidity. You will be tied to her through your kids and that could be a good thing.

Help her if she needs it and isn't throwing you under the bus. Have you talked to her? My MIL always had my back.


----------



## Sammy64

farsidejunky said:


> I spent 20 years beating up my body in the Army, so I am considering it for an ailing back. Tricare does not cover chiropractors...
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk



Thank you for your Service!...


----------



## ButtPunch

Chaparral said:


> I think you should open a private line of communication with MIL. Her heart is probably breaking too. Of course that's assuming you were close to her. She should not be punished for her daughter's stupidity. You will be tied to her through your kids and that could be a good thing.
> 
> Help her if she needs it and isn't throwing you under the bus. Have you talked to her? My MIL always had my back.


This may be the case but realistically where did TS get the three to five grand to pay her lawyer?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pluto2

Grid, when TS filed the divorce papers, she effectively closed the joint accounts-it just took you a little time to realize that.

Seeing as you feel a moral obligation to MIL, to some degree, could you give MIL- directly- half the money, and tell TS it is her responsibility to come up with the rest? I doubt she will. But that is one of the consequences for her choices. When the D is final the sweet old lady will be your former MIL. She will still be your kids grandmother, but that is it.


----------



## Evinrude58

Chaparral said:


> I think you should open a private line of communication with MIL. Her heart is probably breaking too. Of course that's assuming you were close to her. She should not be punished for her daughter's stupidity. You will be tied to her through your kids and that could be a good thing.
> 
> Help her if she needs it and isn't throwing you under the bus. Have you talked to her? My MIL always had my back.


Mil are typically two-faced. Especially mil's that raise narcissistic daughters. I wouldn't constant her. 
I always thought highly of my mil, until I found out what was said behind my back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ThreeStrikes

I'd advise not paying her back.

This is the perfect opportunity to practice overcoming your 'rescuer' tendency.

And...


Start developing an alpha mentality. The opportunity to at least flirt and have an emotional good time with the gal at NYE was there, and you passed it up. One of the best ways to cure yourself of your "oneitis" is to start developing relationships with other women. 

You're going to be single soon. Start acting like it


----------



## ButtPunch

ThreeStrikes said:


> I'd advise not paying her back.
> 
> This is the perfect opportunity to practice overcoming your 'rescuer' tendency.


QFT


----------



## convert

gridcom said:


> Another story......
> 
> I had to go to a show on NYE. Three of my clients. 1850 people. Young ladies all over the place. I stayed at a hotel just 100 yards from the venue and the whole hotel was just a huge after party. This one girl who slings merch for one of the bands is being super friendly all night. This makes me uncomfortable. Not sure why, but as opposed to other people in my position at these events, I've always been really shy when it comes to woman who are friendly. I'm pretty unsocial/awkward unless I know you well. When I know you well, I'm like Louis CK but only 80% as able to say the disturbing things
> 
> Anyway, I'm trying to avoid this girl because at one point she came up and put her arm around my waist. I immediately thought "the manager of this client told this girl what's happening with me" because I did tell this manager and this arm around my waist is like WTF...
> 
> Anyway, a bunch of us walk back to the hotel after the show and when we get into the lobby everyone scatters. *This girl asks me "Do you have any booze in your room?" and I said "Sorry, no" and got in the elevator without her and went to my room and hit the sack.*


Ooooh man:crying:

please take some booze with you next time you go to one of these venues.>

maybe she just wanted to talk


----------



## Openminded

I can't imagine how I missed this thread until now. I'm sorry your wife refused to accept the help that you offered. She may well regret her decision one day, as many others in similar circumstances have, but that won't be your problem. 

As to the borrowed money, was it a joint debt you agreed to or was it only supposed to be your wife's debt? Did her mother expect to be paid back (and was any attempt made to pay her back) or was it a gift?


----------



## Pluto2

I'm going to disagree with the boys here. 
You are in no position to start up anything with any woman. Deal with the D, take care of your kids, work on you. Then you can be the fun guy inviting a cutie pie up to your room for a drink. It is just too soon and I think your instincts served you well in that regard.


----------



## ButtPunch

Pluto2 said:


> I'm going to disagree with the boys here.
> You are in no position to start up anything with any woman. Deal with the D, take care of your kids, work on you. Then you can be the fun guy inviting a cutie pie up to your room for a drink. It is just too soon and I think your instincts served you well in that regard.


YEP

Grid must deal with his codependent rescuer mentality or he will find himself repeating history with another woman.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

ButtPunch said:


> Pluto2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm going to disagree with the boys here.
> You are in no position to start up anything with any woman. Deal with the D, take care of your kids, work on you. Then you can be the fun guy inviting a cutie pie up to your room for a drink. It is just too soon and I think your instincts served you well in that regard.
> 
> 
> 
> YEP
> 
> Grid must deal with his codependent rescuer mentality or he will find himself repeating history with another woman.
Click to expand...

I didn't read the posts that way. Interactions, talking and light flirting are natural things any single person should be adept at. Grid isn't. I have no concerns about grid hopping in the sack with anyone - just read any of the 5 million posts where he says that. 

BUT - he does need to see the world as a much larger place than he sees it today - in terms of people he should allow into his life. I suspect all of his interactions in these venues are work related and he (by his own description) is personally awkward beyond the work interactions.

Let's face it - most women want a personal connection first and foremost - and that doesn't mean all such interactions are sexual in nature. But about 99.99999% of my random interactions with women - whether they're serving coffee, working out at the health club, or walking through my (large urban) building - involve me smiling and looking them in the eye. Even just a nice nod or friendly banter. It's normal and natural and allows you to see the richness of life. I also talk with guys in these situations too. But, obviously, as a guy I probably naturally flirt a little with the occasional woman. 

No harm and it's not the kind of flirting anyone would take as sexual or aggressive or suggestive, etc. Come on, a woman can tilt her head a bit and give a nice small smile and that's flirting. That's personal interaction and it's nice and not offensive.

Grid is way too focused on his sh*t locally and he needs to more smoothly transition to 50k feet and see the bigger picture.

Grid - sorry to talk around you - to you I'd say you seem to be doing much better. Just think about this post and see if you can change the way you view these work outings and practice talking, making eye contact, light flirting, opening up... I do think it could help immensely soothe your soul.


----------



## ButtPunch

TheTruthHurts said:


> I didn't read the posts that way. Interactions, talking and light flirting are natural things any single person should be adept at. Grid isn't. I have no concerns about grid hopping in the sack with anyone - just read any of the 5 million posts where he says that.
> 
> BUT - he does need to see the world as a much larger place than he sees it today - in terms of people he should allow into his life. I suspect all of his interactions in these venues are work related and he (by his own description) is personally awkward beyond the work interactions.
> 
> Let's face it - most women want a personal connection first and foremost - and that doesn't mean all such interactions are sexual in nature. But about 99.99999% of my random interactions with women - whether they're serving coffee, working out at the health club, or walking through my (large urban) building - involve me smiling and looking them in the eye. Even just a nice nod or friendly banter. It's normal and natural and allows you to see the richness of life. I also talk with guys in these situations too. But, obviously, as a guy I probably naturally flirt a little with the occasional woman.
> 
> No harm and it's not the kind of flirting anyone would take as sexual or aggressive or suggestive, etc. Come on, a woman can tilt her head a bit and give a nice small smile and that's flirting. That's personal interaction and it's nice and not offensive.
> 
> Grid is way too focused on his sh*t locally and he needs to more smoothly transition to 50k feet and see the bigger picture.
> 
> Grid - sorry to talk around you - to you I'd say you seem to be doing much better. Just think about this post and see if you can change the way you view these work outings and practice talking, making eye contact, light flirting, opening up... I do think it could help immensely soothe your soul.


I agree....Light flirting and socializing is ok but....

The do you have any alcohol in your hotel room? That's what we were referring too. That's how women say.... Let's Bang Uglies!


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Yep you're right about that one buttpunch. But he could just as easily paused, looked her in the eye, smiled, and said thank you for the interest. Right? And maybe, "hey, instead, would you still be interested in hanging out a bit if it's in the hotel bar? You're too pretty for me to allow into my room right now - I'm not in that place right now (wink or smile)." You know - interact and control the situation so it is still positive.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Pluto2 said:


> I'm going to disagree with the boys here.
> You are in no position to start up anything with any woman. Deal with the D, take care of your kids, work on you. Then you can be the fun guy inviting a cutie pie up to your room for a drink. It is just too soon and I think your instincts served you well in that regard.


Nobody recommended he jump into a committed relationship. 

However, he could become a guy who is fun as hell to hang out with...especially for women.:surprise:


----------



## ThreeStrikes

TheTruthHurts said:


> I didn't read the posts that way. Interactions, talking and light flirting are natural things any single person should be adept at. Grid isn't. I have no concerns about grid hopping in the sack with anyone - just read any of the 5 million posts where he says that.
> 
> BUT - he does need to see the world as a much larger place than he sees it today - in terms of people he should allow into his life. I suspect all of his interactions in these venues are work related and he (by his own description) is personally awkward beyond the work interactions.
> 
> Let's face it - most women want a personal connection first and foremost - and that doesn't mean all such interactions are sexual in nature. But about 99.99999% of my random interactions with women - whether they're serving coffee, working out at the health club, or walking through my (large urban) building - involve me smiling and looking them in the eye. Even just a nice nod or friendly banter. It's normal and natural and allows you to see the richness of life. I also talk with guys in these situations too. But, obviously, as a guy I probably naturally flirt a little with the occasional woman.
> 
> No harm and it's not the kind of flirting anyone would take as sexual or aggressive or suggestive, etc. Come on, a woman can tilt her head a bit and give a nice small smile and that's flirting. That's personal interaction and it's nice and not offensive.
> 
> Grid is way too focused on his sh*t locally and he needs to more smoothly transition to 50k feet and see the bigger picture.
> 
> Grid - sorry to talk around you - to you I'd say you seem to be doing much better. Just think about this post and see if you can change the way you view these work outings and practice talking, making eye contact, light flirting, opening up... I do think it could help immensely soothe your soul.


Exactly.

It would do wonders for him to see a glimpse of light at the end of this tunnel.


----------



## JohnA

Hi Grid,

The posters who take a grim view of paying her are most likely right. You asked your WS to show you where the money went, that is a fair request. She should be able to show you statement(s) that show a large payment(s) with money you did not know you had. @ButtPunch is right: where did she get the money to pay for the lawyer? 

If MIL wants to help your WW to divorce financially and now needs the money, how is that your problem.


----------



## gridcom

Nah, I'm really very socially awkward with women until I get to know you. When I was growing up, I've mentioned this before, I was very overweight and pimply faced. I was rejected by girls all through HS and didnt have my first girlfriend until I was a senior in HS. Weirdly enough, I got myself into shape that year. I had a few short lived GF's after that until I met my now wife.

Even though I look much better and carry myself much better and have a cool job and all of that, on the inside I still have that weird thing about girls.
For example, I HATE hugging people as a way of hello or goodbye. So many times with girls, I've put my hand out to shake hands when they go in for the polite hug. It's a "thing"

This girl on NYE, she's just a young girl who likes to have fun (I think). I'd say she is late 20's and frumpy. It actually doesn't matter. The point is this is nothing new; married or not.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

gridcom said:


> Nah, I'm really very socially awkward with women until I get to know you. When I was growing up, I've mentioned this before, I was very overweight and pimply faced. I was rejected by girls all through HS and didnt have my first girlfriend until I was a senior in HS. Weirdly enough, I got myself into shape that year. I had a few short lived GF's after that until I met my now wife.
> 
> Even though I look much better and carry myself much better and have a cool job and all of that, on the inside I still have that weird thing about girls.
> For example, I HATE hugging people as a way of hello or goodbye. So many times with girls, I've put my hand out to shake hands when they go in for the polite hug. It's a "thing"
> 
> This girl on NYE, she's just a young girl who likes to have fun (I think). I'd say she is late 20's and frumpy. It actually doesn't matter. The point is this is nothing new; married or not.


I'm confused - is this something you want to change or improve upon?


----------



## gridcom

TheTruthHurts said:


> I'm confused - is this something you want to change or improve upon?


Honestly, I'm not looking to change or improve this. I am comfortable with all of this.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

gridcom said:


> TheTruthHurts said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm confused - is this something you want to change or improve upon?
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly, I'm not looking to change or improve this. I am comfortable with all of this.
Click to expand...

Ok I'm going to be a but of a d*ck and completely overreact to that, because it seems to be the way this thread goes 

Seriously though, your ability to relate socially outside the home may be a great indicator of how well you relate and communicate at home. You've been bludgened about your communication (unfairly but whatever) so you might want to rethink this.

Being comfortable talking and listening to people outside your home, family and friends is great practice for being a good communicator and listener at home. Since communication is a top priority for most women this is a valuable skill.

For me, I'm like "meh" when it comes to social interactions, but my wife insists people love to talk to me at parties and love to see me. I have a weird brain thing (born with) where I can't recognize most people I know (at least in a socially acceptable time period). So, like Dexter (my favorite serial killer) I "pretend to be human". I just talk to most people like I know them. Those that I do expect this, and those that I don't apparently are flattered by the attention or something. Anyway I can't tell - I could talk to you the first time I met you, walk away, run into you 15 minutes later, and not know I've already talked to you. So I HAVE to listen, look for clues, speak vaguely until I can confirm what I'm thinking, respond to what people say, actively look at them, etc. and it helps if I am actually interested in what they say so I try to be.

Anyway, Dexter is a great role model for dealing with social awkwardness . And (almost) everyone loves Dexter!


----------



## bandit.45

turnera said:


> Nothing better for bad backs than yoga...


And some good wall banging sex helps too....


----------



## bandit.45

TheTruthHurts said:


> Anyway, Dexter is a great role model for dealing with social awkwardness


What? 

:surprise:


----------



## gridcom

TheTruthHurts said:


> Ok I'm going to be a but of a d*ck and completely overreact to that, because it seems to be the way this thread goes
> 
> Seriously though, your ability to relate socially outside the home may be a great indicator of how well you relate and communicate at home. You've been bludgened about your communication (unfairly but whatever) so you might want to rethink this.
> 
> Being comfortable talking and listening to people outside your home, family and friends is great practice for being a good communicator and listener at home. Since communication is a top priority for most women this is a valuable skill.
> 
> For me, I'm like "meh" when it comes to social interactions, but my wife insists people love to talk to me at parties and love to see me. I have a weird brain thing (born with) where I can't recognize most people I know (at least in a socially acceptable time period). So, like Dexter (my favorite serial killer) I "pretend to be human". I just talk to most people like I know them. Those that I do expect this, and those that I don't apparently are flattered by the attention or something. Anyway I can't tell - I could talk to you the first time I met you, walk away, run into you 15 minutes later, and not know I've already talked to you. So I HAVE to listen, look for clues, speak vaguely until I can confirm what I'm thinking, respond to what people say, actively look at them, etc. and it helps if I am actually interested in what they say so I try to be.
> 
> Anyway, Dexter is a great role model for dealing with social awkwardness . And (almost) everyone loves Dexter!


It isn't like I'm rude. I just like to keep to myself unless I know you. With both sexes but especially with girls. I think some women here in my town take me as aloof since I am far from gregarious. 

Even with my STBXW, from the moment I met her to the moment I first kissed her....four and a half years


----------



## TheTruthHurts

bandit.45 said:


> TheTruthHurts said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, Dexter is a great role model for dealing with social awkwardness
> 
> 
> 
> What?
Click to expand...

Do you watch Dexter? Angel thinks he's his best friend, they're always trying to drag him along when they go out....

Socially awkward people have to put on a mask just to deal with social situations until they are comfortable wearing that mask. The social awkward person inside, like Grid says, is always there, regardless of outside appearances. Eventually, though, you can adopt parts if the mask into your core personality.

Most people with my neurological condition have no friends or social interaction. How can you maintain a friendship when you don't recognize your friends?

My daughter D14 told me her best friend was walking toward her in the hall but she didn't recognize her - couldn't be sure - until they were a few feet away and the (clearly identifiable red haired bubbly) friend said "hi!".

So I am teaching her to wear the mask and she accepts this and we watch Dexter together and laugh. My wife HATES Dexter which kind of mahesh it funnier. Have at least one other kid with this probably.

I chose to act like I know everyone and look outgoing. But was either that or be afraid of everyone and know no one. Fun, right? But you understand fubar neurological issues and I think yours are more difficult for you as a spouse.

Edit - sorry got posters mixed up bandit forget the last sentance


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Grid,

Imagine this. In HS, you were the pimply-faced pudgy kid that girls wanted nothing to do with.

Now, you're a mid-40's guy, in shape, and with a good income. Probably some salt/pepper stuff.

Now, *you're* the in-demand hot chick.

*Get* comfortable with it.


----------



## gridcom

ThreeStrikes said:


> Grid,
> 
> Imagine this. In HS, you were the pimply-faced pudgy kid that girls wanted nothing to do with.
> 
> Now, you're a mid-40's guy, in shape, and with a good income. Probably some salt/pepper stuff.
> 
> Now, *you're* the in-demand hot chick.
> 
> *Get* comfortable with it.


Very gray beard. And I shaved it over XMas for the first time in about 3 years. So now I am ALLLLL FACE


----------



## TheTruthHurts

gridcom said:


> ThreeStrikes said:
> 
> 
> 
> Grid,
> 
> Imagine this. In HS, you were the pimply-faced pudgy kid that girls wanted nothing to do with.
> 
> Now, you're a mid-40's guy, in shape, and with a good income. Probably some salt/pepper stuff.
> 
> Now, *you're* the in-demand hot chick.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Get* comfortable with it.
> 
> 
> 
> Very gray beard. And I shaved it over XMas for the first time in about 3 years. So now I am ALLLLL FACE
Click to expand...

I believe the male equivalent of a "butter face" is a "neck downer". Are you saying thats you? :japanese_ogre:


----------



## just got it 55

gridcom said:


> Very gray beard. And I shaved it over XMas for the first time in about 3 years. So now I am ALLLLL FACE


Grid in 35 years I shaved my beard once and my kids told me

Dad......... grow it back cause it hides all the ugly :wink2:

55


----------



## Chuck71

Grid.... I too was the overweight teen. From the Summer '86 to late Spring '87, I dropped 150 pounds and grew four inches. No looks from females to double takes. Social interaction is just as important in HS as it is in adulthood.... we just don't place as much importance on it when we are adults. I live in a rural area.... most bars are watering holes for people who are there five nights a week.... not my style. In the nearest metro area... there are a few classy places but are 20something oriented. If I went in there (I have but job related) they would think I'm looking for my underage daughter.

So the places I frequent.... I go in one of three ways, like I own the place, as awkward and shy, or observing mode. As TruthHurts said... smile, "how are you this evening" this doesn't even have to be vocally.... women can read you asking it, and eye contact. Low cut tight tops are some women's eye catcher... mine is my baby blue eyes. Fix, lock, load.

Conversation is super easy for me. If you are polite, respectful, and accommodating women eat it up. "Most guys don't want to get into me, they just want -into me-." I can't tell you the times the chat ends up being confessions for them. At the hotel bar, coffee shop, book store... anywhere. 

Grid... you are correct in saying you are in no way ready for any type of relationship. But until then... you need practice. I did not get a real chance at re-building my social interaction skills after my D. I was already seeing UG before D was final. I have not been serious with anyone since the Fall 2014. A few potentials but... just didn't work out. 

If you read GutPunch's thread you ran across one of my sports articles... Mean Coach, Great Coach.... He emphasized practice often.... 'you can always be better' ..... you just need practice. By the time this D is complete (thanks to Group's thread we all learned NY divorces are long and drawn out), you could have enough practice time in... to where you know what you want and how to get it.

As for the women who end up bearing their soul to me.... everyone over 30 has a confessions box, some are small boxes, others would have to be moved by a crane. The communication I offer nine times out of ten, have them coming on to me. A woman can be very attractive but still be 'beyond broken' those are the types you refuse the advance and keep it in friend zone. Yes you could sleep with them but look at their track record... really want into that drama cycle?

Some have their box in order.... and it might be worth a shot at seeing what's there. Just remember.... bandaged people hide them red flags very well. They show those red flags to you but just after you are seduced into the love chemical. The deeper you fall in, the larger the flags they show.... but you can't see it for the chemical. 

Practice Grid...... no "game time" yet..... just practice


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uoQ7kKgx4o


----------



## LongWalk

Conrad would usually advise betrayed husbands to dump their cheating wives and replace them. For those who wanted to fight to win their wives back he would change tact. The should change their image. Lifting weights and building a "v" shaped torso was essential to creating animal attraction. One other bit of this great makeover was facial hair. If the BH was clean shaven it was time to wear a beard or stubble. If he was bearded it was time to let it grow. 

re: the loan
Was the debt from before or after she filed for divorce?

re: musicologist
So her parents loved classical music?


----------



## gridcom

LongWalk said:


> Conrad would usually advise betrayed husbands to dump their cheating wives and replace them. For those who wanted to fight to win their wives back he would change tact. The should change their image. Lifting weights and building a "v" shaped torso was essential to creating animal attraction. One other bit of this great makeover was facial hair. If the BH was clean shaven it was time to wear a beard or stubble. If he was bearded it was time to let it grow.
> 
> re: the loan
> Was the debt from before or after she filed for divorce?
> 
> re: musicologist
> So her parents loved classical music?


Debt. I don't know if it was before or not. I told her if she could prove it was from before she filed, I'd give her half. but, she has to prove it. She's actually dropped the subject

Her parents didn't love classical. They don't even love music. She sang in talent shows as a kid and somehow that led her to college where she was an Opera major. That switched to Musicology later on. She was just a thesis short of her masters degree. 

The last 4 days have been my best stretch of the 180 since the beginning. And it's only because I have been focusing on this yoga/diet, so it's something to take my mind off of this madness. Also, work has been killer. I've done a good job of being indifferent, of having zero angst in my tone, in the way I walk, etc

Re: Yoga. Amazing how much better my back feels already after 4X doing the DDP yoga. I dont know what regular yoga is like, but DDP yoga is position to position to position with very little rest. By the time I'm done, I'm drenched.


----------



## farsidejunky

gridcom said:


> Debt. I don't know if it was before or not. I told her if she could prove it was from before she filed, I'd give her half. but, she has to prove it. She's actually dropped the subject
> 
> Her parents didn't love classical. They don't even love music. She sang in talent shows as a kid and somehow that led her to college where she was an Opera major. That switched to Musicology later on. She was just a thesis short of her masters degree.
> 
> The last 4 days have been my best stretch of the 180 since the beginning. And it's only because I have been focusing on this yoga/diet, so it's something to take my mind off of this madness. Also, work has been killer. I've done a good job of being indifferent, of having zero angst in my tone, in the way I walk, etc
> 
> Re: Yoga. Amazing how much better my back feels already after 4X doing the DDP yoga. I dont know what regular yoga is like, but DDP yoga is position to position to position with very little rest. By the time I'm done, I'm drenched.


Thanks for the tip on the DDP, brother.

As for the 180, sometimes you have to fake it until you make it.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Chuck71

If I had $1 for every person that is glad you are progressing so well....

I could buy the New York Yankees.

Course.... I'd have to give you box seats for their games against the Mets.


----------



## ButtPunch

Its good to see your posts not focus on TS. That tells me you are beginning to heal. Keep that focus on you. No reactions to anything she does.

Understand healing isn't linear. You will have bad days but you will get thru them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

ButtPunch said:


> Its good to see your posts not focus on TS. That tells me you are beginning to heal. Keep that focus on you. No reactions to anything she does.
> 
> Understand healing isn't linear. You will have bad days but you will get thru them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Is kunfuzzed..... I thought Linear was a group from 1990 who had this hit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE-5KBuDG4k


----------



## Chuck71

UTube comments.... I can only imagine!

I saw one Stairway to Heaven post that had 500+ dislikes..... seriously??? 

I'm glad Grid's thread is becoming more positive and uplifting.

I know I quoted Wake up the Sleeping Giant for HM64 on another thread but that is 

pretty much what I want Grid to keep doing.....


----------



## TeddieG

Chuck71 said:


> ummmmm where'd Teddie's reply go?


Sorry! I tried to edit it and then lost it. But I said, oh, Chucky, don't do that!! (That's a sad song). But the comments on Youtube are worth the post. One of them said, I can't believe we thought we looked good dressing like that back then. We looked like vampires. 

And I couldn't get over the mullets!

Anyway . . . . sorry I blew the post!! I am slow in waking up today and need to stay away from equipment . . .


----------



## TeddieG

Chuck71 said:


> UTube comments.... I can only imagine!
> 
> I saw one Stairway to Heaven post that had 500+ dislikes..... seriously???
> 
> *I'm glad Grid's thread is becoming more positive and uplifting.*
> 
> Me too!
> 
> I know I quoted Wake up the Sleeping Giant for HM64 on another thread but that is
> 
> pretty much what I want Grid to keep doing.....


----------



## Chuck71

Nothing OJ and Vodka wouldn't cure!

A nice read of John Stuart Mills would definitely settle yourself.....


----------



## TeddieG

Chuck71 said:


> Nothing OJ and Vodka wouldn't cure!
> 
> A nice read of John Stuart Mills would definitely settle yourself.....


Indeed. I have a stack of books waiting for me, calling out my name. But I am reading a book for my dissertation, which I have to digest in small wallops, hence my inability to wake up fully. That and 28 degrees and snow, and a space heater in my reading room, so it is nice and toasty. !!

So I come here to check on my friends while I make a cup of tea and hope that everyone is well. 

Grid, you seem to be getting stronger by the minute, and I'm with Chuck. There's some positive movement here; keep it up. It's going to be a good year for you because you're going to make it so.


----------



## Lilac23

gridcom said:


> That switched to Musicology later on. She was just a thesis short of her masters degree.


The thesis is like the biggest part of a master's degree. It's like displaying everything you've learned and implementing. Appears she lacks follow-through, eh? Oh, wait...


----------



## happy as a clam

Hey grid...

I just started DDP yoga too . I'm already in good shape and it's kicking my tail!

As Dallas says, "This ain't your mama's yoga!!"


----------



## Lilac23

Where he!! Grid go?


----------



## 225985

Lilac23 said:


> Where he!! Grid go?


Grid, Your friends and supporters at TAM hope you are doing well.


----------



## Chuck71

HEY Grid...... pitchers / catchers report for spring training a month from today!


----------



## gridcom

I'm here. Nothing to report. Just waiting for next mediation and working my a$$ off. i wouldn't say I am doing the 180 as much as I am just accepting it and ready to move on.


----------



## JohnA

How are you doing becoming the man you said you wanted to be six months ago ? Try not to shut down, it is hard not to. 

Going forward don't beat yourself up after the fact. Beat yourself up before to prepare yourself for what s to come. 

Now is the time to look forward and anticipate what is coming down the pike towards you. Do you know anyone who seems to always seems to have their syht together? It seems that way because of a combination of experience and anticipation. Are you ready to make a life or are going to just let it happen ? 

Take care JohnA


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> I'm here. Nothing to report. Just waiting for next mediation and working my a$$ off. i wouldn't say I am doing the 180 as much as I am just accepting it and ready to move on.


Acceptance is everything
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

The 180 is to help you heal more quickly and move on. You may want to rethink not doing it. Are you going to


----------



## manfromlamancha

Grid, is your wife now openly going to see this POS ? Dating him etc ?


----------



## Chaparral

manfromlamancha said:


> Grid, is your wife now openly going to see this POS ? Dating him etc ?


She never stopped.


----------



## manfromlamancha

Yes but is she open about it now?


----------



## LongWalk

GP is right. Acceptance is key. If Grid sees that his marriage is over, in some sense he doesn't have to strain at implementing the 180 because he will not be chasing a bowl of cold Tomato Soup.


----------



## LongWalk

More conflict is probably on the way. When the economic consequences of the divorce bite in TS is going be confused. Grid is going to be angry. Having a house that is home is very important to children. Taking that away is going to really suck.


----------



## Chuck71

The logical person (Grid) is giving the martyr (TS) exactly what she wants.

Defiant people should get what they think they want, for it rarely ever concludes as they had hoped.

Then the martyr gets to sit down, unfold their napkins, grab their fork n knife and..... eat that 5 foot

schit sandwich. 

Pepto Bismal anyone?


----------



## honcho

Chuck71 said:


> The logical person (Grid) is giving the martyr (TS) exactly what she wants.
> 
> Defiant people should get what they think they want, for it rarely ever concludes as they had hoped.
> 
> Then the martyr gets to sit down, unfold their napkins, grab their fork n knife and..... eat that 5 foot
> 
> schit sandwich.
> 
> Pepto Bismal anyone?


But the martyr actually enjoys the sandwich no matter how bad it tastes because they revel in the poor me routine.


----------



## Chuck71

I hope TSs Pimples McStarbuck's has not only an extra pack of smokes, but a wet nap, an ash tray,

and BBQ sause for the schit sammy. 

They can half it like "true" lovers LMFAO


----------



## just got it 55

Grid how you holding you brother ?

55


----------



## gridcom

Hi Everybody, I am holding up well thank you. Work has been busy, but fun. I've more or less accepted the inevitable end of the marriage, although I can't help but think it's still a [email protected] shame. That said, no more pleading, etc. I'm just doing my thing. We are being civil, friendly sometimes. I think it confuses my older daughter, but it's better than fighting in front of her. My STBXW asked to sleep in the bed last night. Guess she's getting tired of the couch. I told her no. Not in a d*ckish way, just "no, you can't". I don't want my daughter seeing her sleeping in the bed and getting her hopes up, honestly. 

I think my older daughter is very hurt by all of this, and is doing a good job of hiding it from us; her pain. I think about how we are going to sell this house, the only home the girls have known, and we are going to live in the same town, in small apartments. They are going to downgrade lifestyle, and because we live right off the main street, they're going to constantly drive past or walk past this house and think about how/why. Honestly, brings a tear to my eye every time I think about it. But, there is literally nothing I can do other than what I'm doing, which is getting over it and getting on with it.

The STBXW took a second job, I may have mentioned. 24 hours a week, Tu-Th 9-5, sitting at a desk and watching the time pass. Well beneath her abilities. She manages people. She does it well. This job is nothing, literally. Wasting 24 hours a week away sitting there in a cold room with her thoughts. For two weeks now, she's had one day where she works 9-5, then comes home for 30 minutes, then works at the other job from 6-12:30 AM. That's gotta suck. I'm quite sure, although I have no proof, that her and the boy see each other when they can at the job. He lives super close, and the Starbucks is across the street. Who knows what goes on, but from what I can tell, there's got to be more than what I know

Good news is, I care less and less. So much so, that I almost just went back and deleted that whole last sentence, but eff it...leave it in

DDP Yoga is doing well. I've lost 14 lbs in two weeks. Eating smart is the key. I use the "MyFitnessPal" App and weigh all my food. It's a pain in the a$$, but I'm into that stuff. Numbers and stuff like that

Anyway, there it is. Back soon


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> Good news is, I care less and less.


That is very good news.

Your new life awaits you.

Your children will recover. They are resilient. 

Very proud of you.


----------



## happy as a clam

gridcom said:


> My STBXW asked to sleep in the bed last night. Guess she's getting tired of the couch. *I told her no.* Not in a d*ckish way, just "no, you can't".


Bravo grid!!!

Good to see you getting stronger and sticking to your guns. Way to go!


----------



## Chuck71

Childhood homes.... I am very guilty in my case.... but you roll with punches.

You were scarred, beaten, left for dead. Just like.... Terry Collins.

He got a break with Jim Leyland in Pittsburgh.

He managed a very under-achieving Angles team in late 90s. Left for dead.

Took over a destitute Mets team a few years back. 2015..... World Series appearance.

You ain't fvcking dead........ why? You're still swinging ....


----------



## Lostinthought61

at least your daughter knows that there is one adult in the house hold....thank you for staying strong for them, and being a role model as a great dad and a man.


----------



## eric1

gridcom said:


> Hi Everybody, I am holding up well thank you. Work has been busy, but fun. I've more or less accepted the inevitable end of the marriage, although I can't help but think it's still a [email protected] shame. That said, no more pleading, etc. I'm just doing my thing. We are being civil, friendly sometimes. I think it confuses my older daughter, but it's better than fighting in front of her. My STBXW asked to sleep in the bed last night. Guess she's getting tired of the couch. I told her no. Not in a d*ckish way, just "no, you can't". I don't want my daughter seeing her sleeping in the bed and getting her hopes up, honestly.
> 
> I think my older daughter is very hurt by all of this, and is doing a good job of hiding it from us; her pain. I think about how we are going to sell this house, the only home the girls have known, and we are going to live in the same town, in small apartments. They are going to downgrade lifestyle, and because we live right off the main street, they're going to constantly drive past or walk past this house and think about how/why. Honestly, brings a tear to my eye every time I think about it. But, there is literally nothing I can do other than what I'm doing, which is getting over it and getting on with it.
> 
> The STBXW took a second job, I may have mentioned. 24 hours a week, Tu-Th 9-5, sitting at a desk and watching the time pass. Well beneath her abilities. She manages people. She does it well. This job is nothing, literally. Wasting 24 hours a week away sitting there in a cold room with her thoughts. For two weeks now, she's had one day where she works 9-5, then comes home for 30 minutes, then works at the other job from 6-12:30 AM. That's gotta suck. I'm quite sure, although I have no proof, that her and the boy see each other when they can at the job. He lives super close, and the Starbucks is across the street. Who knows what goes on, but from what I can tell, there's got to be more than what I know
> 
> Good news is, I care less and less. So much so, that I almost just went back and deleted that whole last sentence, but eff it...leave it in
> 
> DDP Yoga is doing well. I've lost 14 lbs in two weeks. Eating smart is the key. I use the "MyFitnessPal" App and weigh all my food. It's a pain in the a$$, but I'm into that stuff. Numbers and stuff like that
> 
> Anyway, there it is. Back soon


MyFitnessPal is THE download if you are interested in getting healthy and if you're interested in getting healthy you're right man, it's all about the numbers. It helps scare out so many instances of crap with added sugar that you wouldn't think has added sugar.

Awesome job detaching man, it's the only thing to do at this point. The quicker that you seperate, the quicker you will heal. Your daughters don't care or need a certain way of life, they need to be raised by a confident, happy dad who can concentrate on their best interests.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Great work.

Now do a 180 on the house and lifestyle. That's just emotional baggage too - it's not real. It's expectations. It's worrying about others and comparing yourself.

Sure there are memories - but they're about events and people - not the house.

I bet if you pictured a memory - and moved it from your living room to an apartment living room - you'd still be picturing the smiling faces and laughter.

It's a HUGE mistake to emotionally invest in real estate. Most of us do it - but it is wasted energy. A happy dad can exist in any space.


----------



## turnera

I hope you are taking your daughters on walks or finding other ways to get into conversations with them. The worst thing my mom did was not talk to me after the divorce. She dived into work and I never saw her, and it was hell. I pretty much raised myself from age 12 up. And got SO screwed up. 

They need you now more than ever. They need talks now more than ever.

PS: I ordered the DDP yoga! Now I just have to find my remote control for my BluRay...


----------



## happy as a clam

turnera said:


> I hope you are taking your daughters on walks or finding other ways to get into conversations with them. The worst thing my mom did was not talk to me after the divorce. She dived into work and I never saw her, and it was hell. I pretty much raised myself from age 12 up. And got SO screwed up.
> 
> They need you now more than ever. They need talks now more than ever.


^ ^ ^ THIS. :iagree:

My 18-year-old daughter has opened up to me more than ever now that she has come to the realization that her dad is a narcissistic a$$hole. She came to this conclusion all on her own. I didn't have to say a word. Just waited patiently for her to figure it out all by herself. It didn't take long (a couple of years, but that's just a blip on the radar in terms of the long-haul).

We are taking walks, doing yard work together, reorganizing the basement... all the while she chatters on. My role? I LISTEN. I don't slam him to her. I don't criticize or belittle him. I just help her try to process what I have known for 20+ years. And I suggest things that might be helpful, things that I found helpful. You can be a star without stooping to slamming.

Just be there, grid. And I know you already ARE. Time to really perfect your listening skills .


----------



## Grogmiester

gridcom said:


> DDP Yoga is doing well. I've lost 14 lbs in two weeks. Eating smart is the key. *I use the "MyFitnessPal" App* and weigh all my food. It's a pain in the a$$, but I'm into that stuff. Numbers and stuff like that


I've been using the "MyFitnessPal" app since 2013 with good success. I use it to try and exercise "mindfulness eating". I input what I'm about to eat before I eat it. This is my "pause" to ask myself "am I really hungry or is this emotional eating"? It makes you more aware of what you're consuming though out the day. 

The weighing and inputing is part of the process too. It gets easier. It certainly made me more aware of what a proper portion size was.


----------



## gridcom

Grogmiester said:


> I've been using the "MyFitnessPal" app since 2013 with good success. I use it to try and exercise "mindfulness eating". I input what I'm about to eat before I eat it. This is my "pause" to ask myself "am I really hungry or is this emotional eating"? It makes you more aware of what you're consuming though out the day.
> 
> The weighing and inputing is part of the process too. It gets easier. It certainly made me more aware of what a proper portion size was.


Agreed re: portion control. It's much easier in the house here where I have a USPS scale that weighs ounces. When I go out to dinner, it's much harder not only because you have more or less guesstimate, but also because you dont want to be that d-bag who has their phone out logging in how many pieces of chic peas were in the beet salad.


----------



## JohnA

Wise move turning her down, regardless of how you did it. Did politely you turn her down ? As in: I am sorry but done is done and sharing a bed would not only be painful but confusing. If she had responded not to me your response could have simply been, "true, but you would not have been the only one in the bed, done is done, we need to move on".

Staying in the master bedroom was classic no more Mr. Nice guy. I suspect the old you would have offered to split nights. It also sends a clear message to the kids.


----------



## Evinrude58

I'm anxious to see you find a woman that is capable of admitting fault and providing an "I'm sorry". One that appreciates you and does things to make your life easier because they value YOU and they care about YOU. 

I assure you that these anger issues will likely dissipate, you will ask yourself how you ever were happy with a person that thinks only of themselves, and literally be willing to thank her for setting you free to find a spouse that loves you and cares about you, and respects you, and is easy to love.

That's how I feel. It can happen to you as well.
And your kids will get to see that you are quite different with a reasonable person.

I am starting to realize that what I had, was not what I really needed or wanted. I am just a person that finds contentment even in situations that are less than ideal. Sometimes that's a good thing, sometimes a bad thing. Either way, the opposite of me is my ex wife---she can't find contentment in ANYTHING, EVER.

I am confident that you will find this to be true as well. I hope you take the time to finish your thread when or if this happens.
Good luck Grid. The best days for Grid are yet to come....


----------



## ButtPunch

Evinrude58 said:


> I am starting to realize that what I had, was not what I really needed or wanted. I am just a person that finds contentment even in situations that are less than ideal. Sometimes that's a good thing, sometimes a bad thing. Either way, the opposite of me is my ex wife---she can't find contentment in ANYTHING, EVER.


Wise words.


----------



## happy as a clam

JohnA said:


> Staying in the master bedroom was classic no more Mr. Nice guy. *I suspect the old you would have offered to split nights.* It also sends a clear message to the kids.


I suspect grid would have wanted to make her comfortable in the past too. And possibly score some sex, to turn it all back in his favor??

But the NEW grid is older, wiser, and more aware of conniving plots by STBXWs... her "ploys" no longer work. Her feminine wiles are an EPIC FAIL. Her attempts to reel grid back in because her back hurts (let's face it, sleeping on the couch S*CKS), she's feeling a bit rattled and insecure over her very POOR choices, and she is a bit horny and misses her rock, her security blanket, the MAN who solves all the problems (that MAN is grid...certainly not Mr. Barrista)...and what happens???

grid DENIES her!! The most spectacularly awesome outcome that could occur in grid's life.

He has done it, folks. He has recognized the bullsh*t, accepted it, and moved on from it.

grid, I promise you (based on my own experience with my Ex) someday she will be calling you up, SOBBING, regretting it all, BEGGING you for a chance to "fix it all" -- she will promise you the moon and the stars... hell, she will promise you the UNIVERSE -- and you will decline it all because you have internalized, to your very soul, your very core, the ultimate betrayal.

She is not worth it.


----------



## ButtPunch

That was awesome......happy as a clam


----------



## Chuck71

happy as a clam said:


> I suspect grid would have wanted to make her comfortable in the past too. And possibly score some sex, to turn it all back in his favor??
> 
> But the NEW grid is older, wiser, and more aware of conniving plots by STBXWs... her "ploys" no longer work. Her feminine wiles are an EPIC FAIL. Her attempts to reel grid back in because her back hurts (let's face it, sleeping on the couch S*CKS), she's feeling a bit rattled and insecure over her very POOR choices, and she is a bit horny and misses her rock, her security blanket, the MAN who solves all the problems (that MAN is grid...certainly not Mr. Barrista)...and what happens???
> 
> grid DENIES her!! The most spectacularly awesome outcome that could occur in grid's life.
> 
> He has done it, folks. He has recognized the bullsh*t, accepted it, and moved on from it.
> 
> grid, I promise you (based on my own experience with my Ex) someday she will be calling you up, SOBBING, regretting it all, BEGGING you for a chance to "fix it all" -- she will promise you the moon and the stars... hell, she will promise you the UNIVERSE -- and you will decline it all because you have internalized, to your very soul, your very core, the ultimate betrayal.
> 
> She is not worth it.


TBT ....... 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XC9Y6bGQfT8

Hard to believe that's been 25 years ago....


----------



## gridcom

happy as a clam said:


> I suspect grid would have wanted to make her comfortable in the past too. And possibly score some sex, to turn it all back in his favor??
> 
> But the NEW grid is older, wiser, and more aware of conniving plots by STBXWs... her "ploys" no longer work. Her feminine wiles are an EPIC FAIL. Her attempts to reel grid back in because her back hurts (let's face it, sleeping on the couch S*CKS), she's feeling a bit rattled and insecure over her very POOR choices, and she is a bit horny and misses her rock, her security blanket, the MAN who solves all the problems (that MAN is grid...certainly not Mr. Barrista)...and what happens???
> 
> grid DENIES her!! The most spectacularly awesome outcome that could occur in grid's life.
> 
> He has done it, folks. He has recognized the bullsh*t, accepted it, and moved on from it.
> 
> grid, I promise you (based on my own experience with my Ex) someday she will be calling you up, SOBBING, regretting it all, BEGGING you for a chance to "fix it all" -- she will promise you the moon and the stars... hell, she will promise you the UNIVERSE -- and you will decline it all because you have internalized, to your very soul, your very core, the ultimate betrayal.
> 
> She is not worth it.


While I want to agree with what is written here, the fact of the matter is it's much less detailed and there's much less behind it all than what is written here.

While it is true that stubbornness was her main issue throughout our relationship, she did take care of me and my needs and carry her weight as a wife and mother....until she no longer did.

I want to agree with this statement, but I dont want this to become a distorted reality of the truth. It's true she did a horrible thing and it's true that she even now cannot wrap her head around the ENORMITY of it, but this event aside, she wasn't an a$$hole POS. 

Good news is that, again, it's not killing me. My IC says very simply "She's a lost cause now" and I have to agree


----------



## just got it 55

Grid you're grounded in reality and truth

You will be fine

How is TS dealing out side the home with friends and family

Does everybody know of the end of your marriage

Has she changed her status on social media ?

55


----------



## gridcom

just got it 55 said:


> Grid you're grounded in reality and truth
> 
> You will be fine
> 
> How is TS dealing out side the home with friends and family
> 
> Does everybody know of the end of your marriage
> 
> Has she changed her status on social media ?
> 
> 55


Everybody knows yes. She's always kept a small circle of friends (as did I), and to be honest it appears that it's gotten smaller. When you work 55 hours a week (as she is now) and want to see your kids as much as you can, it doesnt leave room for much else. 

It does appear that the first real consequence of all of this that has hit her is her working this much. She seems pretty tired. I cant say a part of me isnt happy about it. She worked 16 hours last night and wanted to crash in the bed to get a good nights sleep and I just didnt think it was a good idea. "You made your bed now lie in it"....literally. The couch does suck!!!!!! 

She hasnt changed her status on social media.


----------



## LongWalk

Machiavelli would have observed that your new look — shaved beard and weight loss — had changed your image, raising your sex appeal. So the request to sleep together was a move on her part to inspect you closer. Turning her down was the right move.

To begin with, possessing Grid, exerting power over you, is not the same thing as loving a husband with respect.

Also, now that you are not getting angry, your wife is confused. She has known how to wind you up for years. Losing that ability bugs her.

Tomato Soup's dumb choice of jobs is an expression of her low self esteem. She didn't affair up either.

As the love buzz wears off she is going to either start searching for a new boyfriend or begin sabotaging the divorce.

Stay steady. She is now the queen but of the discard pile. 

Has she ever made a mistake in the past and come back and admitted it?


----------



## gridcom

LongWalk said:


> Has she ever made a mistake in the past and come back and admitted it?


Not that I can recall. We'd usually just move on from it.


----------



## happy as a clam

LongWalk said:


> She is now the queen, but of the discard pile.


Holy smokes!!

This just may be the best TAM quote EVER...

LW... Going to add this one to MANY future posts!! (H*ll, even to my signature line!!)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

Do your kids know mom has a boyfriend and that's why you're getting a divorce?

Has TS given you the still want to be speech yet?


----------



## gridcom

Chaparral said:


> Do your kids know mom has a boyfriend and that's why you're getting a divorce?
> 
> Has TS given you the still want to be speech yet?


Yes, my oldest knows. My STBXW still, you know, completely denies that anything is happening. Aside from the lies, the book for XMas, the Spotify lamps across the lake, the inexplicably coming home 2 hours late from work about 6 weeks ago. Still denies with conviction it's anything more than a one sided affair and that the OM has moved on (from her). 

But, I dont believe her. She has actually told me.....get ready for it.....that I've caught her EVERY TIME she's lied to me. YYYep.

I should also mention that I offered her $10,000 to take a polygraph test and she flat out refused.

She hasn't given me any speech about wanting to remain anything. She knows better. 

Her entire family knows, cousins and all. Half of our town knows, assuming that people are spreading it certainly our closest friends here in town all know. And she is just oblivious to it all.

The entirety of her church group knows, and who knows what they tell her. Honestly, between work, the kids, and yoga/dieting I havent really been too dialed in. Days go by in a blur

Next mediation is a week from tomorrow.


----------



## ButtPunch

Anyone notice the absence of a certain poster who seems to have lost interest in Grids well being. 

It is a shame when people want to be right so bad it clouds their judgement. 

Anyway here's to the new you Grid. 

Be strong the bed invite is just the beginning. She will continue to fitness test you to see where your head and heart is. Be strong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

gridcom said:


> Not that I can recall. We'd usually just move on from it.


She will never be marriage material until she can overcome this huge obstacle.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

gridcom said:


> I should also mention that I offered her $10,000 to take a polygraph test and she flat out refused.


WOW... It must be "love"...

You didn't even say that she had to pass to get the money, right?

That ole saying of her "silence speaks volumes" sure applies here, doesn't it...


----------



## happy as a clam

ButtPunch said:


> Anyone notice the absence of a certain poster who seems to have lost interest in Grids well being.


Your observation is duly noted. I think I am probably speaking for many...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

People knock JLD but she means well. If JLD met Tomato Soup in real life, I am certain that she would urge her to go no contact with Mr Spotify.

Grid,

There are good people who never admit they are wrong, but that is a character weakness. Probably FOO problems lie behind such defensiveness. It can also be caused by genetic disposition. Whatever, people with this type of blind spot are in denial against all evidence. They need to suffer before they wake up. You have always let her get away with being right in her own mind. In that respect you enabled this dysfunctional thinking. She is now having to learn to do it on her own. No wonder she drank OM's kool aid so willingly. As long as was buzzed on love, she could stay delusional.

Before you can even consider "being her friend", she needs to apologize sincerely for all the BS.

There is a thread, not old, by a guy who lost his job and had to commute long distances when he found a new one. He was a well educated engineer and the pay cut he took was a blow to his self image. Instead of bucking him up, his selfish wife had an EA. This guy who was working his butt off, read all sorts of vile messages between his wife and OM, running him down. He was devastated. They had one teenage son. He had no choice but to file for divorce. He would have stayed but she showed no remorse.

Months after they split he started his own company and was in a better place than before. Eventually, his ex put out a feeler. She wanted to consider going back to the way things were. He met her for dinner and she was simply unable to express herself properly. She loved her betrayed husband as much as her pride allowed. It was not unreserved. Why would he have wanted her back? He knew he had made the right decision.

Her OM not interested in her once she dumped.


----------



## Lilac23

gridcom said:


> The STBXW took a second job, I may have mentioned. 24 hours a week, Tu-Th 9-5, sitting at a desk and watching the time pass. Well beneath her abilities. She manages people. She does it well. This job is nothing, literally. Wasting 24 hours a week away sitting there in a cold room with her thoughts. For two weeks now, she's had one day where she works 9-5, then comes home for 30 minutes, then works at the other job from 6-12:30 AM. That's gotta suck.


Sounds like the glamorous life of middle-aged single mother with few marketable skills!


----------



## Lilac23

gridcom said:


> She hasnt changed her status on social media.


That's the true measure of a when a relationship is finally over.


----------



## Lilac23

gridcom said:


> Still denies with conviction it's anything more than a one sided affair and that the OM has moved on (from her).


I think if that was true, she might show more interest in salvaging the marriage. 



gridcom said:


> The entirety of her church group knows, and who knows what they tell her.


That can't go over well at Bible study group...


----------



## Chuck71

LongWalk said:


> People knock JLD but she means well. If JLD met Tomato Soup in real life, I am certain that she would urge her to go no contact with Mr Spotify.
> 
> Grid,
> 
> There are good people who never admit they are wrong, but that is a character weakness. Probably FOO problems lie behind such defensiveness. It can also be caused by genetic disposition. Whatever, people with this type of blind spot are in denial against all evidence. They need to suffer before they wake up. You have always let her get away with being right in her own mind. In that respect you enabled this dysfunctional thinking. She is not having to learn to do it on her own. No wonder she drank OM's kool aid so willingly. As long as was buzzed on love, she could stay delusional.
> 
> Before you can even consider "being her friend", she needs to apologize sincerely for all the BS.
> 
> There is a thread, not old, by a guy who lost his job and had to commute long distances when he found a new one. He was a well educated engineer and the pay cut he took was a blow to his self image. Instead of bucking him up, his selfish wife had an EA. This guy who was working his butt off, read all sorts of vile messages between his wife and OM, running him down. He was devastated. They had one teenage son. He had no choice but to file for divorce. He would have stayed but she showed no remorse.
> 
> Months after they split he started his own company and was in a better place than before. Eventually, his ex put out a feeler. She wanted to consider going back to the way things were. He met her for dinner and she was simply unable to express herself properly. She loved her betrayed husband as much as her pride allowed. It was not unreserved. Why would he have wanted her back? He knew he had made the right decision.
> 
> Her OM not interested in her once she dumped.


That would be BetrayedDad.

No one is knocking that person. The evidence was here for everyone to read.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Chuck71 said:


> That would be BetrayedDad.
> 
> No one is knocking that person. The evidence was here for everyone to read.


I'm pretty sure he was referring to Lonelyhusband321. Here's the thread.


----------



## happyman64

Sometimes a BS has to let the WS go. For good.

It is the only way to save themselves. To save the kids as best they can.

Sure the house is sold. And the kids get shared.

But I firmly believe that when you have a fogged up WS that is still committed to being with the affair partner that you let them go.

Let that WS work 1,2 or 3 jobs to make ends meet.
Let that WS lose half the time with the kids.
Let the WS sleep on the couch.
Let the WS end up in a crappy little apt.

It is the reality of their own making.

As the BS all you can do is get your head back to the task at hand.

Ensure a better, healthier future for yourself.
ensure a better, healthier & happier future for your kids. You fake it for them until you all make it.

You be the best coparent you can be and nothing more.

The chance your ExWS wakes up is slim. Because a selfish person that feels no remorse nor sense of duty to put family, children and a marriage before an affair partner is a pretty selfish person.

But that does not mean you cannot be happy again as well as your kids....

Keep moving forward Grid.

HM


----------



## Evinrude58

happy as a clam said:


> I suspect grid would have wanted to make her comfortable in the past too. And possibly score some sex, to turn it all back in his favor??
> 
> But the NEW grid is older, wiser, and more aware of conniving plots by STBXWs... her "ploys" no longer work. Her feminine wiles are an EPIC FAIL. Her attempts to reel grid back in because her back hurts (let's face it, sleeping on the couch S*CKS), she's feeling a bit rattled and insecure over her very POOR choices, and she is a bit horny and misses her rock, her security blanket, the MAN who solves all the problems (that MAN is grid...certainly not Mr. Barrista)...and what happens???
> 
> grid DENIES her!! The most spectacularly awesome outcome that could occur in grid's life.
> 
> He has done it, folks. He has recognized the bullsh*t, accepted it, and moved on from it.
> 
> grid, I promise you (based on my own experience with my Ex) someday she will be calling you up, SOBBING, regretting it all, BEGGING you for a chance to "fix it all" -- she will promise you the moon and the stars... hell, she will promise you the UNIVERSE -- and you will decline it all because you have internalized, to your very soul, your very core, the ultimate betrayal.
> 
> She is not worth it.


This is so absolutely True!!!!!!!! Once reality sets in for good--- someone is going to want some security blanket.

Sad thing is, it's so hard for a man to turn off his feelings. If they could, and he showed her the door right away, they might have had a chance to reconcile were it not for the fact that HE has fallen out of love now. There will be some begging..... get ready.


----------



## Chuck71

Nucking Futs said:


> I'm pretty sure he was referring to Lonelyhusband321. Here's the thread.


That's right...... damnit. I posted on both, just got them confused.

I've done that quite a few times here lately.


----------



## truster

Hey Grid, so good to hear your improvements.

How have steps to prepare the kids for the change gone? Have you started dipping your toe into doing things with/for them that you haven't currently been doing, so the change isn't so large?


----------



## gridcom

truster said:


> Hey Grid, so good to hear your improvements.
> 
> How have steps to prepare the kids for the change gone? Have you started dipping your toe into doing things with/for them that you haven't currently been doing, so the change isn't so large?


Been getting them ready for school and picking them up off the bus. Getting them ready for school is tough because I tend to work until extremely late (last night 3:30AM but that was an exception) and have to be up just before 8am. 

I've been also doing the food shopping with the kids. We used to have the groceries delivered, but I stopped that and we go, the three of us and we shop for food. They might be bored, but I really enjoy that time.


----------



## truster

Maybe have them pick something they want to help you make, and put them in charge of making sure you get all the ingredients. That's what I do with the little one (with copious help on my end, of course). It helps, with him, that he likes very simple foods and turns up his nose at anything with a nice, complex flavor


----------



## Keepin-my-head-up

LongWalk said:


> People knock JLD but she means well. If JLD met Tomato Soup in real life, I am certain that she would urge her to go no contact with Mr Spotify.
> 
> 
> 
> Many people would have urged her to go no contact with Spotify guy.
> Convincing is another matter, if retro couldn't do it, curch group couldn't and circle of friends couldnt.
> Sometimes it can't be done.
> 
> This story absolutely sucks because there is no other way this could have turned out.
> A person who cannot see what is going on that they would work 16 hours, sleep on a couch and give up half the time with their kids for what they claim is an unteciprocated crush!
> (Which would make it worse I think)
> 
> I still can't wrap my head around her refusal to not see what is going on.
> You are a stronger man than I by a mile grid, for sticking and trying.
> 
> This story was a painful one for me to read and for what it is worth, I don't believe anyone or anything would have changed the outcome


----------



## Lilac23

gridcom said:


> Been getting them ready for school and picking them up off the bus. Getting them ready for school is tough because I tend to work until extremely late (last night 3:30AM but that was an exception) and have to be up just before 8am.
> 
> I've been also doing the food shopping with the kids. We used to have the groceries delivered, but I stopped that and we go, the three of us and we shop for food. They might be bored, but I really enjoy that time.


Do you have a choice about the time of day you work?


----------



## LongWalk

I think Clam has it right, there is a good chance she'll try to return to the life that she destroyed. It would be pointless for Grid to entertain the idea since destruction cannot simply vanish because the destructive person returns to the scene.

re: Her new job
She is working. That is still positive. She is not just sitting around hoping for Grid to pay for everything. Give Tomato Soup some credit. She is by far not the worst wayward. She is not drinking or taking drugs.

re: Polygraph
She refused to take one in exchange for $10,000? That's because she lied about how many times she had sex with OM. She doesn't want to share any kinky details. Her lack of honesty is a deal killer, not only for R but even post D mutual respect.


----------



## turnera

grid, it's often recommended when shopping with kids to print out the list, and highlight certain items with each kid's 'color' - and let that kid look for the items he/she needs to be responsible for. It takes a little work, but it empowers them, it's great bonding, and it teaches them to help be responsible. And it's fun.


----------



## gridcom

turnera said:


> grid, it's often recommended when shopping with kids to print out the list, and highlight certain items with each kid's 'color' - and let that kid look for the items he/she needs to be responsible for. It takes a little work, but it empowers them, it's great bonding, and it teaches them to help be responsible. And it's fun.


thats a good one. I'm going to do that. We are all stuck in the snowstorm. A full weekend, just the 4 of us, in this little house


----------



## just got it 55

gridcom said:


> thats a good one. I'm going to do that. We are all stuck in the snowstorm. A full weekend, just the 4 of us, in this little house


Maybe a good time for TS to do some reflection.

55


----------



## LongWalk

Time to teach your daughter the drums. Frank Zappa had woman, Ruth something, who played percussion... Not the xylophone... I forget what it's called.


----------



## LongWalk

Reclaim the Pixies.


----------



## just got it 55

LongWalk said:


> Time to teach your daughter the drums. Frank Zappa had woman, Ruth something, who played percussion... Not the xylophone... I forget what it's called.


Yeah Grids girls know Dweezel for real

55


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

gridcom said:


> thats a good one. I'm going to do that. We are all stuck in the snowstorm. A full weekend, just the 4 of us, in this little house


So. This sounds like a perfect time for making snowmen and snow angles with the kids. It also gets you away from your WS for a few hours.


----------



## ABHale

jld said:


> Of course you can overcome this, grid com. I think it is very promising that you already see your own hand in your troubles.
> 
> I will post a link shortly that will show you how. Just have to get to a PC.
> 
> It is going to be okay. You can change, and earn back her trust.


Why would HE need to work back her trust. SHE CHEATED ON HIM.


----------



## Nucking Futs

ABHale said:


> Why would HE need to work back her trust. SHE CHEATED ON HIM.


Oh, boy, down the rabbit hole again.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

ABHale said:


> jld said:
> 
> 
> 
> Of course you can overcome this, grid com. I think it is very promising that you already see your own hand in your troubles.
> 
> I will post a link shortly that will show you how. Just have to get to a PC.
> 
> It is going to be okay. You can change, and earn back her trust.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why would HE need to work back her trust. SHE CHEATED ON HIM.
Click to expand...

I was taking a dump today and I looked down and realized grid is causing me to have loose stools. But I'm glad you realize this grid - you know you have to work on yourself and the fiber content in your diet.

You can do it - we're all counting on it.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

That's impressive. Turning down $10,000 for a poly. That's a first.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Blossom Leigh said:


> That's impressive. Turning down $10,000 for a poly. That's a first.


It makes sense if she wants to keep Grid as plan b even after divorce. She'd have to think Grid was an idiot or just completely incapable of replacing her though.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Blossom Leigh said:


> That's impressive. Turning down $10,000 for a poly. That's a first.


The illusion she wants to present to the world isn't for sale.

In other words, she can't handle the truth.


----------



## ConanHub

turnera said:


> grid, it's often recommended when shopping with kids to print out the list, and highlight certain items with each kid's 'color' - and let that kid look for the items he/she needs to be responsible for. It takes a little work, but it empowers them, it's great bonding, and it teaches them to help be responsible. And it's fun.


I wish I had read this about 20 years ago!

Great advice! Not too late for grandkids though!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

ThreeStrikes said:


> The illusion she wants to present to the world isn't for sale.
> 
> In other words, she can't handle the truth.


After D is complete, TS is on her own... after Pimples refuses to have her and kids move in with him

TS will entertain the $10k offer for poly. She will need it to live on....


----------



## Evinrude58

I'll bet the 10k offer will be off the table soon....

He will get to the point he can accept the obvious, and hearing a full confession won't matter anymore.

What sickens me even more is that she says the OM has moved on, yet he's been putting songs on lists for her the whole effing time-- we know this.... She was caught in it. That's the tip of the iceberg.

She only admits to what she's caught in red handed. The truth is nowhere in her.

I hope he is doing better and gaining acceptance and closure.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Let's be serious. Grid can't even afford to live separately. How many people - especially his wife - would believe his offer of $10,000 was a serious one? Where would it come from?


----------



## gridcom

turnera said:


> Let's be serious. Grid can't even afford to live separately. How many people - especially his wife - would believe his offer of $10,000 was a serious one? Where would it come from?


I have the money. I have money saved from my XMAS bonus. I need part of it to pay for mediation and the agreement. Usually my bonus the last few years was to pay off debt. I only used to 10k to pay off debt this year and stored the rest


----------



## ReturntoZero

gridcom said:


> I have the money. I have money saved from my XMAS bonus. I need part of it to pay for mediation and the agreement. Usually my bonus the last few years was to pay off debt. I only used to 10k to pay off debt this year and stored the rest


I suppose spending 10k to get the truth (you already know) could provide some sort of relief.

But, if you really want to kiss off 10k, I'm a small business owner and we could use the working capital:wink2:


----------



## Lilac23

turnera said:


> Let's be serious. Grid can't even afford to live separately. How many people - especially his wife - would believe his offer of $10,000 was a serious one? Where would it come from?





gridcom said:


> I have the money. I have money saved from my XMAS bonus. I need part of it to pay for mediation and the agreement. Usually my bonus the last few years was to pay off debt. I only used to 10k to pay off debt this year and stored the rest


It amuses the hell out of me that of all the comments, this is the one Grid responds to. It's almost like his pride was hurt by the insinuation he couldn't afford and he had to make sure we _knew_ that's not the case. Pride goeth before a fall.... You a ham, Grid, straight up!


----------



## JohnA

Hi Grid,

Did TS ever clarify what she spent the money her mother gave her? As to you repaying it, not unles shebcan document it went to the family finances and then only half. The rest is on her, not you. 

I sense there is more to Grid, some of it shocking to you. Comment on it to friends to espouse the level of deceit but otherwise don't react emotioning. The nature of her relationship and the lack of normal behavior for a person in an adulterous relationship does not make sense. It would not surprise me if there was another OM in the shadows. Most likely married and earning a good living who she meant though the church or other activities she was involved in. 

Take care, be strong.


----------



## LongWalk

TS doesn't want the dirty details out, whatever they are. That she had sex with OM more than once is obvious. Could there be another OM? Perhaps. TS reminds me of... stuck with the name... the guy whose wife was a leader in the theater and had two or three affairs. She wanted to reconcile because her idea of life was that you cheated on your husband, went through some drama and tears and grew old together. She never thought of herself as a bad person, one of the reasons that she was careless about concealing the affair that led to Dday two.

When the time comes for separation/house sale TS will melt down.


----------



## Chaparral

That you would give her ten dollars for the truth shows you are simply in denial. Ten thousand means you're delusional.


----------



## farsidejunky

LongWalk said:


> TS doesn't want the dirty details out, whatever they are. That she had sex with OM more than once is obvious. Could there be another OM? Perhaps. TS reminds me of... stuck with the name... the guy whose wife was a leader in the theater and had two or three affairs. She wanted to reconcile because her idea of life was that you cheated on your husband, went through some drama and tears and grew old together. She never thought of herself as a bad person, one of the reasons that she was careless about concealing the affair that led to Dday two.
> 
> When the time comes for separation/house sale TS will melt down.


 @Acoa

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## farsidejunky

Chaparral said:


> That you would give her ten dollars for the truth shows you are simply in denial. Ten thousand means you're delusional.


It was rhetoric. 

Grid may be a lot of things, but he is no dummy. He knows there is more, and knows she needs to hid it, so he conducted a simple exercise to call TS crap. 

He got exactly the answer he was expecting, I suspect.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## just got it 55

@gridcom How are your baby girls doing?

55


----------



## gridcom

just got it 55 said:


> @gridcom How are your baby girls doing?
> 
> 55


Nothing really to mention over here. I am going to company retreat on Sunday for a week, so this will be the first time I've actually traveled for more than 2 days since this whole debacle began. 

Mediation #2 was supposed to happen today and the mediator cancelled last night, so now it's not until Feb 8. 

Girls are doing fine. They are going to be fine until they see a FOR SALE sign on the lawn. To them it'll read "OUR PARENTS SUCK". And we do....


I'll be honest, because this why we are all here!!!!!!!!!!!......Anyway, I'll be honest, things get so "as they were" for a few days in a row. Friendly, co-parenting, asking about each others day, etc....that sometimes I kind of lose it on her....Like we'll share a laugh and I'll just stop in the middle and be like "Why did you have to go and **** this all up?" or I'll tell her I am running to the deli and ask her if she wants anything, and because all her money is going towards the bills, she'll be like "if you're buying, please get me a blah blah blah on a roll" and I'll just catch myself and it hurts, because I want to just turn right around and tell her to f*ck herself, but we are beyond any of that.

And she's unflinching "Look, lets just get through this as quickly and quietly as possible. I'm done discussing it." And I know to even counter at all is wrong and pointless, but it creates a pain inside me.

As I've said, I'm convinced there's so much I dont know and she's going to take it to the grave, and no matter what it's just understood in my head and heart that there is no turning back now.
That said, I wish once that post Retrouvaille Spotify discovery happened, I could have just walked out right then and never looked back. But, I can see this mediation stretching on FOREVER. We are going to have to live here through the summer? Ugh. 

Regarding a polygraph test, I am not going to let it go. To me, I want to know who I married. i want to know who this woman really is. We had kids together, spent 20 years together, from ages 24-44 our prime years that are never coming back. I want to know if she was out boning it up. We lived very separate social lives before kids. And even after we had our first kid, she would go out and see friends, stay out over night, full weekends, I never had an odd mis-trusting thought in my head. I never ever considered cheating and just assumed she was the same way. But,man, there were many many nights where her and her band were playing open mics on weeknights out in Long Island and she'd just crash out there. Or weekends up at her rich friends family house in the Catskills, her and her college buddies. And I would have shows with my band, so I wouldn't go, etc

Tons and tons of nights like that.

And the fact that she is absolutely saying "no, no,no" to the Polygraph, when offered $10,000, says all there is to say. I'm trying not to harp on it, but to be honest I'd wish she'd take it and pass it and take the money and shove it up my a$$ so at least I know I didnt marry a total sc&mbag.

The second she desperately needs money (and unless she hooks up with a rich guy, it's going to happen pretty soon after we split), I am going to insist she take the test for the $10,000.
And the thing that totally stinks and hurts is....she won't take it. Because she couldn't pass it.

Someone on TAM posted a link to a REDDIT page for Adultery. I gotta tell you I went there and it made me really hate people. It was just thread after thread of people who cheat and don't give a sh^t about being a total loser lowlife. It was a really disheartening evening reading some of those.

So, now, I need to find someone who is as equally as disgusted as I am by that, I need to feel like they can prove it and at the same time I dont want to be with some bible thumping, boring, butterless mashed potatoes.

See ya !


----------



## just got it 55

Grid Just let them GO

55


----------



## farsidejunky

gridcom said:


> Nothing really to mention over here. I am going to company retreat on Sunday for a week, so this will be the first time I've actually traveled for more than 2 days since this whole debacle began.
> 
> Mediation #2 was supposed to happen today and the mediator cancelled last night, so now it's not until Feb 8.
> 
> Girls are doing fine. They are going to be fine until they see a FOR SALE sign on the lawn. To them it'll read "OUR PARENTS SUCK". And we do....
> 
> 
> I'll be honest, because this why we are all here!!!!!!!!!!!......Anyway, I'll be honest, things get so "as they were" for a few days in a row. Friendly, co-parenting, asking about each others day, etc....that sometimes I kind of lose it on her....Like we'll share a laugh and I'll just stop in the middle and be like "Why did you have to go and **** this all up?" or I'll tell her I am running to the deli and ask her if she wants anything, and because all her money is going towards the bills, she'll be like "if you're buying, please get me a blah blah blah on a roll" and I'll just catch myself and it hurts, because I want to just turn right around and tell her to f*ck herself, but we are beyond any of that.
> 
> And she's unflinching "Look, lets just get through this as quickly and quietly as possible. I'm done discussing it." And I know to even counter at all is wrong and pointless, but it creates a pain inside me.
> 
> As I've said, I'm convinced there's so much I dont know and she's going to take it to the grave, and no matter what it's just understood in my head and heart that there is no turning back now.
> That said, I wish once that post Retrouvaille Spotify discovery happened, I could have just walked out right then and never looked back. But, I can see this mediation stretching on FOREVER. We are going to have to live here through the summer? Ugh.
> 
> Regarding a polygraph test, I am not going to let it go. To me, I want to know who I married. i want to know who this woman really is. We had kids together, spent 20 years together, from ages 24-44 our prime years that are never coming back. I want to know if she was out boning it up. We lived very separate social lives before kids. And even after we had our first kid, she would go out and see friends, stay out over night, full weekends, I never had an odd mis-trusting thought in my head. I never ever considered cheating and just assumed she was the same way. But,man, there were many many nights where her and her band were playing open mics on weeknights out in Long Island and she'd just crash out there. Or weekends up at her rich friends family house in the Catskills, her and her college buddies. And I would have shows with my band, so I wouldn't go, etc
> 
> Tons and tons of nights like that.
> 
> And the fact that she is absolutely saying "no, no,no" to the Polygraph, when offered $10,000, says all there is to say. I'm trying not to harp on it, but to be honest I'd wish she'd take it and pass it and take the money and shove it up my a$$ so at least I know I didnt marry a total sc&mbag.
> 
> The second she desperately needs money (and unless she hooks up with a rich guy, it's going to happen pretty soon after we split), I am going to insist she take the test for the $10,000.
> And the thing that totally stinks and hurts is....she won't take it. Because she couldn't pass it.
> 
> Someone on TAM posted a link to a REDDIT page for Adultery. I gotta tell you I went there and it made me really hate people. It was just thread after thread of people who cheat and don't give a sh^t about being a total loser lowlife. It was a really disheartening evening reading some of those.
> 
> So, now, I need to find someone who is as equally as disgusted as I am by that, I need to feel like they can prove it and at the same time I dont want to be with some bible thumping, boring, butterless mashed potatoes.
> 
> See ya !


Grid, you will make yourself crazy with it.

The more you write, the deeper the rabbit hole appears to go with TS. But I suspect you know this as well. Longwalk's comparison to @Acoa wife may be more accurate than any of us suspected. For perspective, I would read his thread. You may find some parallels.

As hard as it is, you need to detach and let it all go. You are capable. You just have to let go of the expectations you had from both TS and life. 

Clearly there are other things in life you need to accomplish. It is time to start being great and finding these things.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## MattMatt

gridcom said:


> thats a good one. I'm going to do that. We are all stuck in the snowstorm. A full weekend, just the 4 of us, in this little house


You have snow? I wish WE had some snow! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Openminded

Think of it this way -- even if she passed a poly, that wouldn't mean for certain she was telling the truth. There are people who beat them. She's the only one who knows for sure what she has and hasn't done and she'll never tell you. Let it go.


----------



## Chaparral

What you're doing is called self flagellation.

Just because she isn't the sharpest tack in the barrel doesn't mean she is dumb enough to take a polygraph. No cheater is willingly going to take a poly unless they want to reconcile and think they can pass it.

You're pretending she is still wife material if only you could...........

She thinks your dumber than she thought you were. You're literally waiting on her hand and foot and trying to butter her up. You're f*cked until you figure out what the 180 is for. I guess you will get it but you're reminding me of my uncle that gave his demon from hell, wh*re, b!tch everything including his farm thinking she would think fondly of him. Instead she took her neighbors farm too. At least he deserved it, the cheating bastard.


----------



## snerg

gridcom said:


> Nothing really to mention over here. I am going to company retreat on Sunday for a week, so this will be the first time I've actually traveled for more than 2 days since this whole debacle began.
> 
> Mediation #2 was supposed to happen today and the mediator cancelled last night, so now it's not until Feb 8.
> 
> Girls are doing fine. They are going to be fine until they see a FOR SALE sign on the lawn. To them it'll read "OUR PARENTS SUCK". And we do....
> 
> 
> I'll be honest, because this why we are all here!!!!!!!!!!!......Anyway, I'll be honest, things get so "as they were" for a few days in a row. Friendly, co-parenting, asking about each others day, etc....that sometimes I kind of lose it on her....Like we'll share a laugh and I'll just stop in the middle and be like "Why did you have to go and **** this all up?" or I'll tell her I am running to the deli and ask her if she wants anything, and because all her money is going towards the bills, she'll be like "if you're buying, please get me a blah blah blah on a roll" and I'll just catch myself and it hurts, because I want to just turn right around and tell her to f*ck herself, but we are beyond any of that.
> 
> And she's unflinching "Look, lets just get through this as quickly and quietly as possible. I'm done discussing it." And I know to even counter at all is wrong and pointless, but it creates a pain inside me.
> 
> As I've said, I'm convinced there's so much I dont know and she's going to take it to the grave, and no matter what it's just understood in my head and heart that there is no turning back now.
> That said, I wish once that post Retrouvaille Spotify discovery happened, I could have just walked out right then and never looked back. But, I can see this mediation stretching on FOREVER. We are going to have to live here through the summer? Ugh.
> 
> Regarding a polygraph test, I am not going to let it go. To me, I want to know who I married. i want to know who this woman really is. We had kids together, spent 20 years together, from ages 24-44 our prime years that are never coming back. I want to know if she was out boning it up. We lived very separate social lives before kids. And even after we had our first kid, she would go out and see friends, stay out over night, full weekends, I never had an odd mis-trusting thought in my head. I never ever considered cheating and just assumed she was the same way. But,man, there were many many nights where her and her band were playing open mics on weeknights out in Long Island and she'd just crash out there. Or weekends up at her rich friends family house in the Catskills, her and her college buddies. And I would have shows with my band, so I wouldn't go, etc
> 
> Tons and tons of nights like that.
> 
> And the fact that she is absolutely saying "no, no,no" to the Polygraph, when offered $10,000, says all there is to say. I'm trying not to harp on it, but to be honest I'd wish she'd take it and pass it and take the money and shove it up my a$$ so at least I know I didnt marry a total sc&mbag.
> 
> The second she desperately needs money (and unless she hooks up with a rich guy, it's going to happen pretty soon after we split), I am going to insist she take the test for the $10,000.
> And the thing that totally stinks and hurts is....she won't take it. Because she couldn't pass it.
> 
> Someone on TAM posted a link to a REDDIT page for Adultery. I gotta tell you I went there and it made me really hate people. It was just thread after thread of people who cheat and don't give a sh^t about being a total loser lowlife. It was a really disheartening evening reading some of those.
> 
> So, now, I need to find someone who is as equally as disgusted as I am by that, I need to feel like they can prove it and at the same time I dont want to be with some bible thumping, boring, butterless mashed potatoes.
> 
> See ya !



Hot snot dude.

I am going to help you here.

This is worth every cent of $10,000

You want to know was she.....

the answer is *YES*. To everything.


You want to know why.
The answer is *BECAUSE*. To everything

It truly is no more nor no less than that.

Once you have reached a point where those two answers have all the meaning you need when describing your "wife", your self healing will truly begin.


----------



## Lilac23

gridcom said:


> I'll be honest, because this why we are all here!!!!!!!!!!!......Anyway, I'll be honest, things get so "as they were" for a few days in a row. Friendly, co-parenting, asking about each others day, etc....that sometimes I kind of lose it on her....Like we'll share a laugh and I'll just stop in the middle and be like "Why did you have to go and **** this all up?" or I'll tell her I am running to the deli and ask her if she wants anything, and because all her money is going towards the bills, she'll be like "if you're buying, please get me a blah blah blah on a roll" and I'll just catch myself and it hurts, because I want to just turn right around and tell her to f*ck herself, but we are beyond any of that.
> 
> And she's unflinching "Look, lets just get through this as quickly and quietly as possible. I'm done discussing it." And I know to even counter at all is wrong and pointless, but it creates a pain inside me.


She's way better at the 180 than you. 



gridcom said:


> As I've said, I'm convinced there's so much I dont know and she's going to take it to the grave, and no matter what it's just understood in my head and heart that there is no turning back now.
> That said, I wish once that post Retrouvaille Spotify discovery happened, I could have just walked out right then and never looked back.


This is common, not too many people look back and think 'wow I wish I stayed in that abusive relationship with that cheating [email protected] / b!tch even longer'. 



gridcom said:


> Regarding a polygraph test, I am not going to let it go. To me, I want to know who I married. i want to know who this woman really is. We had kids together, spent 20 years together, from ages 24-44 our prime years that are never coming back. I want to know if she was out boning it up. We lived very separate social lives before kids. And even after we had our first kid, she would go out and see friends, stay out over night, full weekends, I never had an odd mis-trusting thought in my head. I never ever considered cheating and just assumed she was the same way. But,man, there were many many nights where her and her band were playing open mics on weeknights out in Long Island and she'd just crash out there. Or weekends up at her rich friends family house in the Catskills, her and her college buddies. And I would have shows with my band, so I wouldn't go, etc
> 
> Tons and tons of nights like that.
> 
> And the fact that she is absolutely saying "no, no,no" to the Polygraph, when offered $10,000, says all there is to say. I'm trying not to harp on it, but to be honest I'd wish she'd take it and pass it and take the money and shove it up my a$$ so at least I know I didnt marry a total sc&mbag.
> 
> The second she desperately needs money (and unless she hooks up with a rich guy, it's going to happen pretty soon after we split), I am going to insist she take the test for the $10,000.
> And the thing that totally stinks and hurts is....she won't take it. Because she couldn't pass it.


You've thought waaaay too much about this, my friend. I think we can all assume she has lied about something, at some point, during your years together. When you realize that it no longer matters, you will be well on your way to healing. Really, at any breakup for pretty much any reason, you look back and wonder if it was all true or what was really happening that you didn't know about at the time. Why do we do this? Because we are coming to terms with our former best friend now being a possible adversary. It's an adjustment, to be sure!



gridcom said:


> Someone on TAM posted a link to a REDDIT page for Adultery. I gotta tell you I went there and it made me really hate people. It was just thread after thread of people who cheat and don't give a sh^t about being a total loser lowlife. It was a really disheartening evening reading some of those.


That was me and you're welcome.



gridcom said:


> So, now, I need to find someone who is as equally as disgusted as I am by that, I need to feel like they can prove it and at the same time I dont want to be with some bible thumping, boring, butterless mashed potatoes.
> 
> See ya !


These are your only choices? Talk about stereotypes! Everyone who is disgusted by adultery must be a 'bible thumping, boring, butterless mashed potatoes', eh? I think Mrs. Robinson-Grid has disproved that one! Aren't you precious? Really! Bless your heart!


----------



## Evinrude58

I can imagine the pain you're going through living with this woman because I still have to work with mine.
It's incredibly difficult to see the wolf inside the sheep's clothing. Your wife was once your most trusted ally. Now she's your worst enemy, and still looks like the same person. I try to remember when I see mine that the only thoughts going through her head when I see her are negative ones. She's thinking how she had all the power to treat me like garbage, and had me groveling at her feet while another man was plowing her and she was telling him what a pathetic chump I was. 

You have got to retrain your mind to start seeing her as she is, or she will continue to wield this sword against you. Try to never let her tell you again that she doesn't want you or to work anything out, and when she is doing poorly and wishing for your help in the future, try to remember how she is treating you now.
Mine still calls me and asks me for my counsel when she gets herself in a bind, and like a fool I listen and try to help; all while she's planning to marry some older, rich chump who has never had a job and lives next door to his parents who support him in a great lifestyle. 
Yours will one day regret this. But you need to try to get to indifference. We both do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TheTruthHurts

**** four stars evinrude58


----------



## gridcom

Evinrude58 said:


> It's incredibly difficult to see the wolf inside the sheep's clothing. Your wife was once your most trusted ally. Now she's your worst enemy, and still looks like the same person. I try to remember when I see mine that the only thoughts going through her head when I see her are negative ones.


this


----------



## happyman64

Grid

Repeat after me.

"She is not my friend, nor has she been my friend for a long time"

You need to mediate. Divorce and excise her from your life as much as you can.

Be a good coparent and that's it.

You are not being given any other choices.

Not surprised when dealing with such a selfish person.....

HM


----------



## giddiot

gridcom said:


> this



The thing that would bother me the most is that this enemy knows you better than any other person on earth and now can divulge or hurt you with it. It's makes it seem that you can never trust anybody completely with your innermost information because you can't trust that some day they could destroy you with it. It will breed distrust in any relationship you have in the future and without that trust marriages don't work.


----------



## gridcom

Lilac23 said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by gridcom View Post
> So, now, I need to find someone who is as equally as disgusted as I am by that, I need to feel like they can prove it and at the same time I dont want to be with some bible thumping, boring, butterless mashed potatoes.
> 
> These are your only choices? Talk about stereotypes! Everyone who is disgusted by adultery must be a 'bible thumping, boring, butterless mashed potatoes', eh? I think Mrs. Robinson-Grid has disproved that one! Aren't you precious? Really! Bless your heart!


I think what I meant here is that there is such a narrow lane between women who are Christians (or Hypo-Christians, as I call my STBXW these days) and woman who have no sense of decency and morals. The middle there, good woman who dont lean towards either side are few. Maybe I'm wrong.

Trouble is, and this is just the way it is no matter how much I 180, detach, whatever.... is that I am always going to have my guard up because this can be the case with anybody. I was with this woman for 20 years and never thought this was who she is. And it's hard to fathom that she "became" this way. It's easier to rationalize that she always had it in her, the template justification that makes looking in the mirror/sleeping at night easy. 

Those people on that REDDIT thread, they do what they do and they sleep just fine at night, don't they? Seems like most them talk about cheating on their significant other like they talk about which laundry detergent is best. My STBXW is one of these people? 

For TWENTY YEARS I believed she wasn't. 

So, what I am saying is that I can fall in love again and it can hide itself for DECADES.

Bummer

Here's the link again if you want to get bummed out
https://www.reddit.com/r/adultery/


----------



## syhoybenden

Please avoid reddit. It is a toilet. (That hasn't been flushed for a while)


----------



## Evinrude58

Grid,
I know what you mean. Don't look for a "Christian" that wears t-shirts with this and that on them so everyone that sees them thinks they are this firm believer. When you start looking again, find one that lives being a Christian. That bases their actual decisions on their beliefs, not just talks about what they believe.
Your wife has made decisions that show what and who she is, and as you correctly surmised, what she always was. It likely wasn't hidden, you were just blinded by what you wanted her to be. Now that I'm not emotionally attached to my ex, I see her like I never did before.

You are worried you'll feel this way or that and never trust again. I can tell you that isn't true. Once you meet a person that IS what your wife IS NOT, you will wonder how you were able to turn a blind eye to all your wife's lack of character shown in daily life. I suspect you will go through a lot of dates, like I did, and have NO feelings for anyone like I did for a while, because your subconscious will see most of them clearly now. That's the way it was for me. Your picker is likely permanently repaired--- one of the many things I've found were actually good about this horrible ordeal.

Be confident that when you meet a good woman, you will appreciate her more now than you ever could before. Now you know how valuable good character is, in a way you never knew before your wife did this to you. And when you find that good woman, you will wonder how you could love a person this much, especially since you thought yourself incapable of loving a woman again.

Take heart! Your life is likely just beginning. You will always regret what happened for what it did to your kids. But you will be thankful your wife gave you this gift of forcing you to divorce her. Thank God for "unanswered" prayers. You will one day, I'd almost guarantee it.
The Lord is taking care of this for you. You just can't see it yet. I am confident you will.

It helped me to think about all the huffing and puffing my ex was doing with other men. I sure had any feelings I had quelled in a moment.
Your wife did not have sex with that guy one time. That is a lie. But isn't once enough? Once is all it takes for me to be in horror.

I am sure wishing you didn't have to see her every day-- live with her. That has got to be more than a man should have to stand.

Good luck with a speedy divorce.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ButtPunch

Grid

The sooner you accept her for who she is and not who you thought she was the better off you will be. 

If you give that woman $10,000.00 to tell you what you already know I will drive straight to NY and bring a truckload of 2x4's to smack you with.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

gridcom said:


> I am always going to have my guard up because this can be the case with anybody. I was with this woman for 20 years and never thought this was who she is. And it's hard to fathom that she "became" this way.


grid, you are now SO much more aware of things than 20 years ago, even 3 years ago. Any relationship you go into will be with a more realistic expectation as well as knowledge of how you keep YOUR side of the street clean and healthy and nurturing.

I truly do believe in the tenets of Dr. Harley's His Needs Her Needs. It's basic psychology. As long as you are open, honest, caring, never taking each other for granted, meet each other's needs, AND have high standards for each other, you should be fine in your next 'life.'

Of course, you'll also know what to do if you catch your future partner slipping into unhealthy actions, and cut if off before it blossoms. And if you teach your future partner what you've learned here, you should both be on the same page and happy to keep each other happy.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

I will reiterate what Evinrude said. His situation mirrored mine in many ways.

My ex was a preacher's daughter. By the time I met her when she was 20, she had tried every drug known to man, and had given up a daughter for adoption. Her parents enabled her behavior, and she became quite the actress and manipulator.

Of course, I came to her rescue back then. Because my picker was broken and she was a hottie.

She became a serial cheater, and bisexual. 

The suffering and growth you are experiencing now...consider it a 'proving grounds'. Like Evinrude said, your picker will be perma-fixed, and your next relationship will be so much better.

Oh, but date many many women before you settle for that next 'one'


----------



## Chaparral

ButtPunch said:


> Grid
> 
> The sooner you accept her for who she is and not who you thought she was the better off you will be.
> 
> If you give that woman $10,000.00 to tell you what you already know I will drive straight to NY and bring a truckload of 2x4's to smack you with.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Give her a quarter and tell her to call someone that gives a f*ck. Quit feeding her ego.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Grid I think your viewpoint is still quite narrow. Being a good - or what I think if as a high quality - man or woman is completely independent of ones religion or religious orientation.

Quality I guess is what's now taught to the kids these days as character and has several dimensions. I don't know how they label then these days.

When you're young, you don't consider these things. In fact the fun people are characters though they may lack character 

There is a socioeconomic component to this too I'm afraid. Not a causal but definitely a correlated relationship. Picture the difference in choices a trailer park girl might make versus an upper middle class girl. Again I talking statistics and not individual people. What you're exposed to throughout your formative years impacts your character development. When we see guys hustling, doing shady things to make a buck and that's accepted or even lauded, we soak it in. When we see fighting and relationship issues related to low income, and people fighting to choose a better mate to get a cell phone or better car, we absorbe it. When we see an affluent group of people look down on all that - and maybe still have money and relationship issues but keep them out of public view, we absorbe that maybe those are negative things. I could never imagine one of my neighbors leaving a spouse and moving in with another neighbor - but I could easily see that when I was younger, living in less affluent, more densely packed areas.

None of what I mentioned means you'll find people of good character in one place versus the other. I'm just saying the religious orientation is also just a correlation that probably statistically is true but individually who knows.

When you meet someone and get to know them and ask about their background, that's when you can probe how they felt about what they saw around them. You lived in a rougher area? What's the best thing about being past that in life? Oh you were brought up in Ritzville? Is there anything you don't miss about that?

I find that good people try to move forward in life and leave behind things they find toxic. The questions I mention can help them articulate where their values lie. A lot of people hate their ritzy upbringing because of the hypocrisy - the stereotypical idle wife looking around and the hard working dad screwing a nurse or secretary. I mean it happens everywhere but how does an individual feel about it? 

I realize your STBXW probably would have passed muster in many of my tests. For me, the lack of humility - being unable to apologize - would have been my red flag. I would have naturally probed till I found a situation requiring character that maybe she failed and asking how she got past that. We've all had failings - I'd tell my S yeah I'm lucky to still be here - I screwed up. Sounds like she couldn't say that. IDK.

Sorry to blather on... Point is people of good character are everywhere and many are not religious at all. Look up one of the school district character programs and they'll articulate it better than me.


----------



## bandit.45

Grid stop calling your WW a Christian. She is not a Christian. She is a hypocrite, a liar and a fraud. The fact that her church family has not asked her to leave the congregation is egregious to me. Absolutely egregious.


----------



## Ms. GP

What you got against mashed potatoes Grid? They're delicious!! (Sorry I couldn't resist  ) I do see some of your humor coming back. "hypo-christian" That is hilarious!!


----------



## gridcom

Ms. GP said:


> What you got against mashed potatoes Grid? They're delicious!! (Sorry I couldn't resist  ) I do see some of your humor coming back. "hypo-christian" That is hilarious!!


I was in a band with a guy who was a "devout" Christian. His parents even requested he not use his last name when advertising himself in our band because we were, you know, NOT Christians

We'd go on tour and he was, by far, the guy in our crew that hit on the most girls. Like at least a half dozen a night. And by percentages alone, he was "scoring", except he wasn't. See, because he was a Christian, he wouldnt actually have sex with these girls. No, no, no, no.... He would ONLY HAVE ORAL SEX. And he'd have it anywhere. In the van, on the stage after soundcheck, on the roof of a building.

That was when we coined the term "Hypo-Christian"

Anyway, maybe I've confused some of you with my comments. I am not a Christian. I am agnostic borderline "Christ-curious". Sounds like a fancy coffee.... Anyway, my point was if you take out all the bible thumping moralists (not that there is anything wrong with that) and the sc&mbag cheaters (some are both, I understand), the gene pool of good women seems to be very thin. I based these comments on getting pummeled by Reddit saddness, which someone pointed out was a pile of s^it to begin with.

I'm off on an adventure. Back next weekend


----------



## Ms. GP

"Christ-curious" sounds like a sexual orientation to me, but whatever floats your boat!! I knew a mormon guy in high school that did that too.

My advice treat your mind like you are treating your body now. Fill it with good inspirational things instead of that Reddit crap. 

P.S. I remember you saying Louis CK's style of humor is very similar to yours, (he's hilarious btw) Have you ever listened to Jim Gaffigan? He's funny too?


----------



## Archangel2

Evinrude58 said:


> Grid,
> I know what you mean. Don't look for a "Christian" that wears t-shirts with this and that on them so everyone that sees them thinks they are this firm believer. When you start looking again, find one that lives being a Christian. That bases their actual decisions on their beliefs, not just talks about what they believe.
> Your wife has made decisions that show what and who she is, and as you correctly surmised, what she always was. It likely wasn't hidden, you were just blinded by what you wanted her to be. Now that I'm not emotionally attached to my ex, I see her like I never did before.
> 
> You are worried you'll feel this way or that and never trust again. I can tell you that isn't true. Once you meet a person that IS what your wife IS NOT, you will wonder how you were able to turn a blind eye to all your wife's lack of character shown in daily life. I suspect you will go through a lot of dates, like I did, and have NO feelings for anyone like I did for a while, because your subconscious will see most of them clearly now. That's the way it was for me. Your picker is likely permanently repaired--- one of the many things I've found were actually good about this horrible ordeal.
> 
> Be confident that when you meet a good woman, you will appreciate her more now than you ever could before. Now you know how valuable good character is, in a way you never knew before your wife did this to you. And when you find that good woman, you will wonder how you could love a person this much, especially since you thought yourself incapable of loving a woman again.
> 
> Take heart! Your life is likely just beginning. You will always regret what happened for what it did to your kids. But you will be thankful your wife gave you this gift of forcing you to divorce her. Thank God for "unanswered" prayers. You will one day, I'd almost guarantee it.
> The Lord is taking care of this for you. You just can't see it yet. I am confident you will.
> 
> It helped me to think about all the huffing and puffing my ex was doing with other men. I sure had any feelings I had quelled in a moment.
> Your wife did not have sex with that guy one time. That is a lie. But isn't once enough? Once is all it takes for me to be in horror.
> 
> I am sure wishing you didn't have to see her every day-- live with her. That has got to be more than a man should have to stand.
> 
> Good luck with a speedy divorce.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And hopefully the communication skills you learned in Retrouvaille will be put to good use.


----------



## Lilac23

gridcom said:


> I think what I meant here is that there is such a narrow lane between women who are Christians (or Hypo-Christians, as I call my STBXW these days) and woman who have no sense of decency and morals. The middle there, good woman who dont lean towards either side are few. Maybe I'm wrong.


It could also be that you are placing your own expectations of what you expect someone be that identifies with a certain faith and when they fail to live up to your expectations, you demonize the lot of them. Christians aren't perfect, a true Christian would never claim to be. I've done this too and been shocked to my core by things people have done. But the reality is, they never claimed to be something they weren't, I placed my own expectations on them because of what I thought they _should_ be. For example, I grew up in a poor, divorced parent household, my ex had a 'Leave it to Beaver' type childhood. I assumed (wrongly) that he would emulate this model in his future and morals. When we discussed our childhoods one time, he told me that everything in mine was bad. But it actually wasn't, it was just his interpretation of a background that was different from his own. It was a strong attraction for me that he seemed to have such a grounded, solid base but it really had no bearing on who he actually was as a person. It was all a myth! A figment of my imagination! Perhaps he thought I'd be ok with a lying cheating [email protected] because my family rented instead of owned. He was wrong, too!



gridcom said:


> Trouble is, and this is just the way it is no matter how much I 180, detach, whatever.... is that I am always going to have my guard up because this can be the case with anybody. I was with this woman for 20 years and never thought this was who she is. And it's hard to fathom that she "became" this way. It's easier to rationalize that she always had it in her, the template justification that makes looking in the mirror/sleeping at night easy.


This will change you, no way around that! You've been with her for around 20 years, right? Think about how much you've changed in that time, how when the reality of life started to click in and you started to realize limitations of what you thought was possible for yourself or your future. People change! Or maybe what they think they want changes? Was she about 20 when you got married? It's actually quite an accomplishment that you've stayed together this long! From 20 to 30, I changed a ton so did the things I _thought_ I wanted. But I don't think that my actual character or core changed a lot, if that makes sense. 



gridcom said:


> Those people on that REDDIT thread, they do what they do and they sleep just fine at night, don't they? Seems like most them talk about cheating on their significant other like they talk about which laundry detergent is best. My STBXW is one of these people?


Some do, some don't. Some have guilt, some feel justified. All people are a mix of good and bad, hero and villain, you will never find a perfect person who hasn't done something they regret or that you don't agree with. Have you thought perhaps you idolized her too much? She is just another confused person finding her way through life. She made a wrong choice and has decided to stick with it, you may never know why. It just takes time to accept this.



gridcom said:


> For TWENTY YEARS I believed she wasn't.
> 
> So, what I am saying is that I can fall in love again and it can hide itself for DECADES.


True! You don't divorce the same person you married!




gridcom said:


> Here's the link again if you want to get bummed out
> https://www.reddit.com/r/adultery/


It doesn't bum me out, it educates me. It will probably always somewhat disgust you, but knowledge is power.


----------



## farsidejunky

Lilac23 said:


> It could also be that you are placing your own expectations of what you expect someone be that identifies with a certain faith and when they fail to live up to your expectations, you demonize the lot of them. Christians aren't perfect, a true Christian would never claim to be. I've done this too and been shocked to my core by things people have done. But the reality is, they never claimed to be something they weren't, I placed my own expectations on them because of what I thought they _should_ be. For example, I grew up in a poor, divorced parent household, my ex had a 'Leave it to Beaver' type childhood. I assumed (wrongly) that he would emulate this model in his future and morals. When we discussed our childhoods one time, he told me that everything in mine was bad. But it actually wasn't, it was just his interpretation of a background that was different from his own. It was a strong attraction for me that he seemed to have such a grounded, solid base but it really had no bearing on who he actually was as a person. It was all a myth! A figment of my imagination! Perhaps he thought I'd be ok with a lying cheating [email protected] because my family rented instead of owned. He was wrong, too!


QFT.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## LongWalk

You're going to be okay, Grid. Maybe even better than that.

TS wants the divorce so that she can escape herself more than anything else. Every time she remembers how she betrayed you she feels the need for a clean start in life. She's like the city manager who approved corrosive water in the old lead pipes and funneled money to his cousin's urban renewal consulting company. She has to leave to avoid seeing the kids who have been lead poisoned.

She probably did cheat when she was with her band, etc. If so at the time she justified it because she thought she had a lot of love to give and there was plenty left over for you. Plus she needed her batteries recharged by sex and attention.

Christians... the pastor in my mother's church was suspended with a year's pay because he plagiarized sermon after sermon. Eventually, someone Googled his prose and discovered that he was a cut and paste theologist.


----------



## turnera

Ever watch Preachers' Daughters? Eye opener to some, but it just validates what I've always known - the stricter you try to raise your kids, the more they rebel.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

A priest in my town who was counseling a woman on her marriage - ended up married to her. Wonder what the husband and kids thought of that. I'm sure there was no EA or PA before all avenues of fixing her marriage were tried, right? Yeah, sure.

Grid it's entirely possible STBXW never thought about cheating over the years, just like you didn't. The W in my story certainly didn't.

When people find themselves unsure, scared, reflective... like a MLC or after the death of someone close, they can find there whole world view and thoughts about what is, what was, and what could be confusing, false... and the path they are on terrifying. No one wants to grow old. And when your world view is shaken you can easily start to make rash and unpredictable - even risky and uncharacteristic - decisions.

My cancer diagnosis did that to me and your wife's infidelity did that to you. Who knows what set off your STBXW's lizard brain.

Sure she could have been a crazy, cheating, lying, deceitful woman for decades. More likely, IMO, she broke somewhere in the more recent past and started her FUBAR thinking.

If she was a serial liar and cheater she'd be much better at gas lighting you and stringing you along than she was. She stonewalled and denied but those seem to be characteristic of her stubborn personality. She would have been more agreeable and reassuring and played you if she was a the more evil spouse like I've read here on TAM. The BS in those threads are constantly second guessing themselves about an affair even happening, and their wives string then on in denial after denial and appear to still be connected emotionally. I think STBXW didn't know WTH she was thinking and her obstinate nature forced her to me this stupid affair something more real. Who knows.

It doesn't matter anyway. She chose her path and has stayed on it in spite of every reasonable and many unreasonable attempts by you to let her off the hook. That means she's either broken beyond repair or she simply wants out at all costs - or both. The only possible response you can have to that is let go completely and remove her from you thoughts.

What's important for you to understand is all the crazy thoughts going through your head are normal too. Questioning your own past - and thinking things you know aren't true - rewriting your own history - that's normal too. I did that with my cancer and it was making me crazy - I started to think things about my GOOD relationship past that were bad and not true. IDK - maybe that's how we process panic and change - we push the pain and crazy away and it lands in random places. We lose our sense of what we thought was true.

Talk about this with an IC. You'll find your negative thoughts about the nature of women, for example, are just a way to cope with this and find a reason for your loss and pain. You'll find your happy memories are still there and a valid part of you.

I guess just accept that the panic and crazy will pass as you process your loss and grief.


----------



## Chuck71

ThreeStrikes said:


> I will reiterate what Evinrude said. His situation mirrored mine in many ways.
> 
> My ex was a preacher's daughter. By the time I met her when she was 20, she had tried every drug known to man, and had given up a daughter for adoption. Her parents enabled her behavior, and she became quite the actress and manipulator.
> 
> Of course, I came to her rescue back then. Because my picker was broken and she was a hottie.
> 
> She became a serial cheater, and bisexual.
> 
> The suffering and growth you are experiencing now...consider it a 'proving grounds'. Like Evinrude said, your picker will be perma-fixed, and your next relationship will be so much better.
> 
> Oh, but date many many women before you settle for that next 'one'


Most on TAM will advise guys not to M a nurse, hairstylist, or a teacher.

Ya don't hear much about preacher's daughters.

Those were the gals the group I hung with in HS chased.... not for M.... just for fun...


----------



## Chuck71

16 days until pitchers and catchers report for spring training.....

Mets retained Cespo... any thoughts on 2016?


----------



## Acoa

farsidejunky said:


> Grid, you will make yourself crazy with it.
> 
> The more you write, the deeper the rabbit hole appears to go with TS. But I suspect you know this as well. Longwalk's comparison to @Acoa wife may be more accurate than any of us suspected. For perspective, I would read his thread. You may find some parallels.
> 
> As hard as it is, you need to detach and let it all go. You are capable. You just have to let go of the expectations you had from both TS and life.
> 
> Clearly there are other things in life you need to accomplish. It is time to start being great and finding these things.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Definitely some parallels. The biggest one you have to realize is she desperately needs others to see her as she want to portray herself. The 'good Christian'. Unfortunately, that's not who she is.

See her for who she is. Do this by her actions, not anything she says. Everything out of her mouth either crafts an image or defends it. 

Don't bother trying to shatter her self delusion. My ex was just like her Dad. Problem is, she didn't like her Dad. So, she crafted an image of herself more like her mother. Problem is, that wasn't her. So, she does denies herself. Trying to bust through that denial is futile and will just lead to her doing something even more stupid. 

Detach and craft a settlement that does what is in the best interests of your children. Don't worry about having any relationship with her beyond being good co parents to your children.


----------



## LongWalk

Acoa,

Do you think your exWW's became even more morally undone because of her love for theater? I mean you go and plan and practice putting on plays. What playwrights don't cover infidelity, murder, etc? Shakespeare is full of it. And your ex was a leader of the theater group.


----------



## truster

Chuck71 said:


> Most on TAM will advise guys not to M a nurse, hairstylist, or a teacher.


I'll bite, why is that? I can't speak to hairstylists or teachers, but I know a ton of nurses, and I'd argue that on average they're more stable than the general population. Those hours, though.. oof.


----------



## naiveonedave

truster said:


> I'll bite, why is that? I can't speak to hairstylists or teachers, but I know a ton of nurses, and I'd argue that on average they're more stable than the general population. Those hours, though.. oof.


based on published stats, those 3 are tops on the list for having affairs.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

truster said:


> I'll bite, why is that? I can't speak to hairstylists or teachers, but I know a ton of nurses, and I'd argue that on average they're more stable than the general population. Those hours, though.. oof.


Cheating is common in hospitals.

Think of all the soap operas in a hospital setting.


----------



## Acoa

LongWalk said:


> Acoa,
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think your exWW's became even more morally undone because of her love for theater? I mean you go and plan and practice putting on plays. What playwrights don't cover infidelity, murder, etc? Shakespeare is full of it. And your ex was a leader of the theater group.



No, her morals didn't change. She still likes to be seen as the "good girl". Oddly enough with the crowd at that theater she can pull that off. Apparently cheating on your H is considered "acting out" due to undiagnosed depression. She has unplugged from family and is with "the family she choose". (That makes my kids feel second class, which sucks) 

But it goes to show the WS can spin even the craziest situation into them being "right" (or something like it). I don't buy into it, but that's okay. Not my circus, not my monkey.

For the kids sake I wish she would be more involved with her family, they are good people (for the most part). But all I can do is not be an obstacle to that. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Chuck71

Acoa said:


> No, her morals didn't change. She still likes to be seen as the "good girl". Oddly enough with the crowd at that theater she can pull that off. Apparently cheating on your H is considered "acting out" due to undiagnosed depression. She has unplugged from family and is with "the family she choose". (That makes my kids feel second class, which sucks)
> 
> But it goes to show the WS can spin even the craziest situation into them being "right" (or something like it). I don't buy into it, but that's okay. Not my circus, not my monkey.
> 
> For the kids sake I wish she would be more involved with her family, they are good people (for the most part). But all I can do is not be an obstacle to that.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Your WS detested reality.... it belied consequences

but OMG she loved the fantasy. In fantasyland....

you make your own rules, write your own history

But she has become a prisoner of her own mind.

Somewhere Eric Blair is chuckling


----------



## MattMatt

LongWalk said:


> Acoa,
> 
> Do you think your exWW's became even more morally undone because of her love for theater? I mean you go and plan and practice putting on plays. What playwrights don't cover infidelity, murder, etc? Shakespeare is full of it. And your ex was a leader of the theater group.


It's not even that, always.

People get to be different people, friendships develop during a production run in the theatre. Sometimes dangerous friendships.

It's a world of make believe and fun. 

And you know what they say?

"it always fun until someone loses an eye" or a marriage...


----------



## Lilac23

truster said:


> I'll bite, why is that? I can't speak to hairstylists or teachers, but I know a ton of nurses, and I'd argue that on average they're more stable than the general population. Those hours, though.. oof.


I know a bunch of nurses too. Ninety percent of them were quite the 'wild things' back in the day.


----------



## Lilac23

ThreeStrikes said:


> Cheating is common in hospitals.
> 
> Think of all the soap operas in a hospital setting.


I've worked in hospitals, you're either super busy or super bored and hot men are at a premium, especially doctors, so when one comes around everyone gets excited. You should hear old women talking about the butt on a surgeon young enough to be their son, lol.


----------



## Chuck71

Lilac23 said:


> I've worked in hospitals, you're either super busy or super bored and hot men are at a premium, especially doctors, so when one comes around everyone gets excited. You should hear old women talking about the butt on a surgeon young enough to be their son, lol.


I've had four "loves" .... my college sweetheart (2nd) and post-D gf (4th). 

2nd was not a nurse yet but her grandmother and mom worked in 

hospitals. 2nd and 4th were extremely Co-D, very insecure, poor 

self-esteem... but.... neither cheated on me. They sure as schit

thought I did.... insecurity. They put me on a pedestal, said I was

perfect. Then..... when they GASP.... saw I was human, they blamed

me for deceiving them. Meanwhile.... all this time.... they build up

resentment and said ........ NOTHING. They ball up in a shell and

pull back / away. Finally... when you've had enough and blow the

relationship up..... it ALL comes out... oh... it's all your fault too because

"you should have read my mind" because "you do know.... I can read yours"

LMFAO ...... no neither cheated but I wasted a lot of time with each.

They were textbook cheaters.... had we gotten M..... yeah... would lay $$ 

Oh... 4th love was a medical assistant.... same thing. 

Another example.... running buddy from HS... we were closer than 81 and 82.

He M his HS sweetheart... I was best man. They were couple that would last

fifty years and have twelve kids. Barely two years later.... headed for D.

She was home health CNA / LPN .... fell for grandson of a patient.

"Chuck something ain't right. I've checked bank statements, her car, even

her purse... can't find anything." I asked about the phone bill.... he couldn't 

recall seeing one in about six months (keep in mind this was 1994).

Game.... set...... match.


----------



## LongWalk

I'll bet healthcare professionals who cheat are less likely to use condoms than average. But still actors are more notorious than people in any line of work. The tabloids once reported that Julia Roberts did not trust her husband Danny Moder because she suspected him of cheating, but come on she knew he was an adulterer. She started dating him when he was married.


----------



## manfromlamancha

Hey Grid! How goes it ? Any revelations, come to Jesus moments, epiphanies from your wife ? Or still the same ? Hope you are doing OK.


----------



## LongWalk

I'll bet that Grid is not hanging out here so much because he is detaching from his WW and the pain is lessening. At this point he is reviewing their whole marriage and seeing her in a very negative light.

She needs to come clean and stop all the trickle truth just to get friendship and respect in the post divorce relationship.


----------



## GusPolinski

truster said:


> I'll bite, why is that? I can't speak to hairstylists or teachers, but I know a ton of nurses, and I'd argue that on average they're more stable than the general population. Those hours, though.. oof.


Actually hadn't read that regarding hair stylists. Makes sense, though... a lot of them are histrionically emo drama queens with massive diva complexes. (Mrs. Gus, however, is not.)

Regarding nurses and teachers, I've read that plenty. And, if you think about it, it just makes sense. Think about the dedication and commitment that it would take for one to perform either role. Then throw in long hours (some of which may very well be mandatory), stressful, taxing work environments, and like-minded co-workers. It's a recipe for infidelity.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lilac23

Was it a joyous day of 'friendship' in the Grid household?


----------



## TeddieG

LongWalk said:


> I'll bet that Grid is not hanging out here so much because he is detaching from his WW and the pain is lessening. At this point he reviewing their whole marriage and seeing her in a very negative light.


I was thinking that too. As acceptance sets in, the urgency lessens. When the inevitable happens, at some point the betrayed spouse gets the chance to step back and go, wow, what was THAT?


----------



## gridcom

I'm here. Haven't gone anywhere. Nothing has happened, really. I mean, nothing has happened that warrants a lengthy post. We are in that middle ground between accepting what has happened and starting over. We are doing mediation. My daughter see's a school psychologist because my STBXW and I can't hide our disdain for each other. We've done a good job of not talking around our kids, but you can feel the hostility in the air. The mediator spent an hour telling us how we needed a nesting apartment for the two of us to share so we could be apart immediately. I told the woman how we just couldnt afford to jack up our monthly nut by $1200 a month. She was like "Well, you have to figure out a way." An hour later, after going over our bills, she was like "You really dont have any money for a nesting apartment. Is there a family member you can borrow money from our can you get a second job?" I laughed my a$$ off at the suggestion of a second job. First of all, I dont have a job. I have a career. Which means I work all the time. I dont clock in and out. Today is a "holiday" but by the looks of my inbox, it's no holiday. Can you imagine working from 10am to 12am, then working somewhere else? What am I, going to deliver newspapers? 

She then focused on my STBXW and told her she needed a better job. So, they argued for a few minutes. Anyway, the mediator hasn't gotten back to us on a follow up to next mediation. Is it possible she took $1800 of our money and is done with us? I suppose.....

I'm finding all of it alarmingly funny, regardless.

I guess I am just trying to numb all the pain and angst with work. I've been working nonstop. I went to a company retreat for a week and that was cool. While I was away, the STBXW had her co-worker over. You know, the one who lied for her and hid things from me and basically facilitated the affair. If you go back and read page.....58-61 (total guess!) I was very vocal about this woman not being in my house. I didnt think it's right that she drinks the wine I pay for or feel the warm heat I pay for, but yet there she was spending the evening enjoying these things that I provide even though she helped my STBXW have an affair. This didn't sit well with me and I was pretty vocal about it. Doesn't matter. These are things I just have to endure. 

This weekend, she went to her sisters house for a big family party. Brought the kids. They took a big family photo, and she tagged me on Facebook. Now, why in the f&ck......Eh, nevermind

Like someone said, page 143-144 (total guess!), the cavalry is not coming to help. 

Anyway, be back soon once something happens. Otherwise, it just sounds like complaining.


----------



## manfromlamancha

Complain away grid, you're entitled!

Is she still in touch with the POSOM ? Is it in the open now ?


----------



## Evinrude58

Grid. What has happened to the affair partner? Is he out of the picture? Are they dating openly?

Just curious. Glad you're at least ok and making a little progress. Must be hell living with her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pluto2

Grid, glad you checked in.

Don't worry or hesitate about complaining here. It might actually help. Getting some of the frustration out on TAM can sometimes make your reality easier to deal with. You can also get some suggestions from others who have been through something similar.

For instance, your mediator has a singular solution for problems and if your reality doesn't fit, they got nothing. That's not much of a facilitator. Yes, your STBX should get a better job. Gosh why didn't you think of that. And all the mediator sees is get a job to institute my solution, not get a job to help with the bills. Ugh. I am not a fan of mediators, sorry.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Your stbxw is going to have a very rude awakening financially. 

You're still better off then sticking around with a wife who doesn't love you, but it will be a shock for her.

I'm sorry your issues weren't addressed before she detached 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

If the co-worker is married, maybe call up her husband and reveal to him his own wife's role in terms of enabling and encouraging your wife's affair.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

Next time TSs affair instigator friend is over... try to know of it in advance.

Grid.... be a damn gentleman. Buy them a cake. Slip ex-lax in the cake. Have nanny cam set up

where you can watch it at a bar with some guys. If you're able to.... turn the water off.


----------



## MRR

jld said:


> Grid, please do not make the mistake so many other posters do, of expecting men and women to be exactly the same, to think the same, to react the same. It is unlikely to be successful.
> 
> Your wife has certain needs you may not have. Success will not come from beating her over the head about morality, or demanding she meet your needs equally to the way you meet hers.
> 
> Success will come from being patient and sincere, understanding and compassionate. That will inspire her to begin meeting your needs, and to then more fully meet them, from her heart, which will be filled with love and gratitude to you.
> 
> Pride is the enemy here. Give in to it at your family's peril.


----------



## gridcom

I dont know about the POSOM. They're definitely not open about it. Whatever their affair is, it's carrying on at work, in the workplace. She's pretty much 100% either here, at work, or out with the kids. Literally, 100% of the time. So, if they are seeing each other, it's either at work or she is going to some amazing lengths (like dropping the kids off, threatening the kids not to tell me, and going off with him)

If you ask her, she insists there is no affair. She insists they only had sex one time, despite her refusal a month or so ago to take a polygraph (for $10,000). 

I've been going to IC and, basically, inside of myself I am a raging inferno of anger. I am keeping it internal, but it can't be denied that my "rest position" is pretty pissed off and mean and bitter. That's ok. 

Diet has been going well. DDP Yoga is really great. Want to feel younger? Fix your back. It's like getting brand new sneakers with Dr. Shoals. But, like, better than that even. Hard to explain. I'm really into picking things up off the floor!


----------



## Evinrude58

Your resting potential will change exponentially after she is not visible every day. 
It's impossible to do, but if you could be happy, act happy, and become indifferent, it's possible things could even change. Sadly, I doubt even that would work until your wife actually starts to see the consequences for her choices in life, and that will be too damned late.
It's a shame two people can't just work things out. But, once a woman does what she has done and lost all feelings for her husband, it's just a domino effect of negativity.

You will feel so much better when you don't have to look at her every day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

MRR 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by jld View Post 
Grid, please do not make the mistake so many other posters do, of expecting men and women to be exactly the same, to think the same, to react the same. It is unlikely to be successful.

Your wife has certain needs you may not have. Success will not come from beating her over the head about morality, or demanding she meet your needs equally to the way you meet hers. 

Success will come from being patient and sincere, understanding and compassionate. That will inspire her to begin meeting your needs, and to then more fully meet them, from her heart, which will be filled with love and gratitude to you.

Pride is the enemy here. Give in to it at your family's peril. 




WTF is the dislike button?


----------



## Chuck71

Grid.... acting happy and excited is good..... fake it till you make it.

TS seeing you all happy and giddy.... yeah.....

"WTF is Gridcom so damn happy?"


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Yep, it's crappy when you are still in the house with her every day.

I'm looking forward to the day when you've got your own place and solitude. Then you'll really be able to detach, and that anger will melt away.


----------



## turnera

gridcom said:


> I've been going to IC and, basically, inside of myself I am a raging inferno of anger. I am keeping it internal, but it can't be denied that my "rest position" is pretty pissed off and mean and bitter. That's ok.


I'd say it's not ok. This is THE most stressful, THE most important, time in your kids' lives and they are looking to you to see how to handle it. You're carving something into their very personality - that they'll carry around with them for the rest of their lives, just because you aren't doing whatever it is you need to be doing to accept this happened and start being the good parent they need you to be. Even the mediator saw it, in only one meeting. Think how much your kids are soaking in.


----------



## happyman64

DDP Yoga sounds great.

Why not send your WW to a few yoga sessions.

Maybe your WW will fix her back and "grow a spine".....

And I can understand about your WW sending the family picture while away with the kids.

But I have to ask your question. Were you invited to that family event?

HM


----------



## gridcom

happyman64 said:


> DDP Yoga sounds great.
> 
> Why not send your WW to a few yoga sessions.
> 
> Maybe your WW will fix her back and "grow a spine".....
> 
> And I can understand about your WW sending the family picture while away with the kids.
> 
> But I have to ask your question. Were you invited to that family event?
> 
> HM


Was not invited. I do the Yoga at home. There is an App, I zing it up on the Apple TV. Presto.


----------



## gridcom

turnera said:


> I'd say it's not ok. This is THE most stressful, THE most important, time in your kids' lives and they are looking to you to see how to handle it. You're carving something into their very personality - that they'll carry around with them for the rest of their lives, just because you aren't doing whatever it is you need to be doing to accept this happened and start being the good parent they need you to be. Even the mediator saw it, in only one meeting. Think how much your kids are soaking in.


Eh, you're not wrong. But the only solution is for me to be the "bigger" parent and literally move out. And I'm not leaving. Can't afford, advised against it. Def don't want to.


----------



## happyman64

Please share the app. I am working on getting back in shape and my Apple TV 2 is my new best friend.


----------



## gridcom

Ddp yoga


----------



## turnera

gridcom said:


> Eh, you're not wrong. But the only solution is for me to be the "bigger" parent and literally move out. And I'm not leaving. Can't afford, advised against it. Def don't want to.


No, the only solution is for you to buck up and swallow your anger and deal with the situation instead of walking around your house filled with rage. DEAL with it - therapy, friends, parents, I don't care, just find a way. Do it for them, not her.


----------



## manfromlamancha

gridcom said:


> I dont know about the POSOM. They're definitely not open about it. Whatever their affair is, it's carrying on at work, in the workplace. She's pretty much 100% either here, at work, or out with the kids. Literally, 100% of the time. So, if they are seeing each other, it's either at work or she is going to some amazing lengths (like dropping the kids off, threatening the kids not to tell me, and going off with him)
> 
> If you ask her, she insists there is no affair. She insists they only had sex one time, despite her refusal a month or so ago to take a polygraph (for $10,000).
> 
> I've been going to IC and, basically, inside of myself I am a raging inferno of anger. I am keeping it internal, but it can't be denied that my "rest position" is pretty pissed off and mean and bitter. That's ok.
> 
> Diet has been going well. DDP Yoga is really great. Want to feel younger? Fix your back. It's like getting brand new sneakers with Dr. Shoals. But, like, better than that even. Hard to explain. I'm really into picking things up off the floor!



Did she say why it was only one time ? I mean why would she restrict herself since she felt entitled to it ?


----------



## GusPolinski

gridcom said:


> I dont know about the POSOM. They're definitely not open about it. Whatever their affair is, it's carrying on at work, in the workplace. She's pretty much 100% either here, at work, or out with the kids. Literally, 100% of the time. So, if they are seeing each other, it's either at work or she is going to some amazing lengths (like dropping the kids off, threatening the kids not to tell me, and going off with him)
> 
> *If you ask her, she insists there is no affair. She insists they only had sex one time, despite her refusal a month or so ago to take a polygraph (for $10,000).*
> 
> I've been going to IC and, basically, inside of myself I am a raging inferno of anger. I am keeping it internal, but it can't be denied that my "rest position" is pretty pissed off and mean and bitter. That's ok.
> 
> Diet has been going well. DDP Yoga is really great. Want to feel younger? Fix your back. It's like getting brand new sneakers with Dr. Shoals. But, like, better than that even. Hard to explain. I'm really into picking things up off the floor!


Accept that she's lying and will continue to lie. She will never, Ever, EVER cop to the truth. Accept it.

Also accept that (per some of your earlier posts) this likely wasn't her first affair.

Stop asking her to take polys. Honestly, what's the point? You're already divorcing.

As long as your kids are yours and she's not infected you w/ anything, everything else is just noise.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## gridcom

manfromlamancha said:


> Did she say why it was only one time ? I mean why would she restrict herself since she felt entitled to it ?


She hasn't told me why it was only one time, and it's not a question I care to ask because I know it was more than once and I dont need to go down the rabbit hole.


----------



## happyman64

Thanks for the name of the app. I just downloaded it.

And you know better w,hen it comes to your WW.

Keep the focus on you, the kids and your future.

She can play all the games she wants to.

Alone.

HM


----------



## just got it 55

Grid dump the anger any way you can brother The Yoga Is a great stress reliever so that will help you get on track with that

It's burning negative energy better suited for every other issue in your life

Anger is sole crushing and will and IS eating you alive For you children devour it before it devours you

55


----------



## Chuck71

Grid...... punching bags do wonders.

Throw form out the window, just hit that bag


----------



## ThreeStrikes

I used my anger phase to push the D hard and fast.

Anger is normal. Funnel it into a positive action. Let it drive you. Just don't let anyone see it.

Edit: I gather from reading other's responses that anger isn't the same for everyone. I guess internal anger is good if it drives you towards a positive result. External anger is almost never good.


----------



## LongWalk

Grid,

You have passed the point of being the shattered betrayed spouse. Your attitude now is pretty strong, even inspirational.

Everybody wanted to click the dislike button for what JLD wrote. I agree with Gus that your WW cheated before. She felt that she had a right to romantic adventure when away from home. This is a typical pattern with cheaters. The vacation from mundane everyday life with all of its disappointments is something they see within their grasp and they seize it. This should contain misgivings, guilt. If your wife enjoyed the seduction and sex while away, she may even have come back and been affectionate, sharing if you will, her happiness with you.

Of course, she suspected that you were not a cheater and that was unfair. Perhaps she had mixed feelings about your integrity. She relied on it and yet held it in contempt.

If she submitted to a lie detector test, you could skip asking about Spotify Boy because we all know she banged him many times. She had to enjoy it thoroughly to completely erase you as her lover.

JLD means that underneath all of this dishonesty, your wife is confused and anxious. She is fvcking up life big time and somewhere inside there is a voice in your wife's head, saying that she should come clean about everything and beg for mercy and forgiveness. JLD believes that you should somehow signal to your wife that you could forgive her, instead of grinding her down in the post divorce life that she is not going to dig.

I don't know how you could send this subtle signal to her. You went to Retrouvaille. She could have confessed to all of her cheating there. How many chances does a serial cheater deserve?


----------



## Chuck71

LongWalk said:


> Grid,
> 
> You have passed the point of being the shattered betrayed spouse. Your attitude now is pretty strong, even inspirational.
> 
> Everybody wanted to click the dislike button for what JLD wrote. I agree with Gus that your WW cheated before. She felt that she had a right to romantic adventure when away from home. This is a typical pattern with cheaters. The vacation from mundane everyday life with all of its disappointments is something they see within their grasp and they seize it. This should contain misgivings, guilt. If your wife enjoyed the seduction and sex while away, she may even have come back and been affectionate, sharing if you will, her happiness with you.
> 
> Of course, she suspected that you were not a cheater and that was unfair. Perhaps she had mixed feelings about your integrity. She relied on it and yet held it in contempt.
> 
> If she submitted to a lie detector test, you could skip asking about Spotify Boy because we all know she banged him many times. She had to enjoy it thoroughly to completely erase you as her lover.
> 
> JLD means that underneath all of this dishonesty, your wife is confused and anxious. She is fvcking up life big time and somewhere inside there is a voice in your wife's head, saying that she should come clean about everything and beg for mercy and forgiveness. JLD believes that you should somehow signal to your wife that you could forgive her, instead of grinding her down in the post divorce life that she is not going to dig.
> 
> I don't know how you could send this subtle signal to her. You went to Retrouvaille. She could have confessed to all of her cheating there. How many chances does a serial cheater deserve?


It is somewhat an ardent task to convey the fact that Grid was being set up to take the blame for EVERYTHING.

Seriously? I mean.... ser-ious-ly?


----------



## LongWalk

Grid is no longer a sucker.

Tomato Soup is chumming it up with the "friend" who misled her.

She should be getting hard lectures from friends of her marriage but she rejected those voices.

It seems that she is a serial cheater. She is very much like Acoa's ex. Very.

In real life JLD would not respect her or hang out with her.

Grid is soon going to lose the anger because he is going accept that she is not worthy of anger. Too pathetic.


----------



## just got it 55

ThreeStrikes said:


> I used my anger phase to push the D hard and fast.
> 
> Anger is normal. Funnel it into a positive action. Let it drive you. Just don't let anyone see it.
> 
> Edit: I gather from reading other's responses that anger isn't the same for everyone. I guess internal anger is good if it drives you towards a positive result. External anger is almost never good.


3X yes anger is normal and for me it was my go to emotion and yes I used it to fuel what needed to be fueled

But there does come a point where it is no longer useful and counter productive i.e. his children. And the obsessive anger that drives bad behavior and poor choices.

Controlled anger sure But I don't think Grid is in that mindset ATM

55


----------



## ThreeStrikes

just got it 55 said:


> 3X yes anger is normal and for me it was my go to emotion and yes I used it to fuel what needed to be fueled
> 
> But there does come a point where it is no longer useful and counter productive i.e. his children. And the obsessive anger that drives bad behavior and poor choices.
> 
> 55


Agreed. You said it better than I did.

I do think he has it under control, though. Of course, we only know what he shares with us.


----------



## Chuck71

My case was not with a W nor children. I was in fact, a children LOL

But it carried me through he!!..... I couldn't have made it without it

Controlled vs. uncontrolled, I did learn.

I can still call on my controlled, after over 25 years..... I am thankful and blessed in that


----------



## Lilac23

gridcom said:


> I'm here. Haven't gone anywhere. Nothing has happened, really. I mean, nothing has happened that warrants a lengthy post. We are in that middle ground between accepting what has happened and starting over. We are doing mediation. My daughter see's a school psychologist because my STBXW and I can't hide our disdain for each other. We've done a good job of not talking around our kids, but you can feel the hostility in the air. The mediator spent an hour telling us how we needed a nesting apartment for the two of us to share so we could be apart immediately. I told the woman how we just couldnt afford to jack up our monthly nut by $1200 a month. She was like "Well, you have to figure out a way." An hour later, after going over our bills, she was like "You really dont have any money for a nesting apartment. Is there a family member you can borrow money from our can you get a second job?"


In my experience, mediators work best when most things are already decided and there are just a few key issues to sort out. That's not really the case in your divorce. Should you be subsidizing the wife's new love nest with Junior? I think 'nests' are also for when there is a chance of working things out.




gridcom said:


> I dont have a job. I have a career.


Nice! Good one! I'm gonna have to use that in the future.
:iagree: :lol::rofl: :toast: :allhail:





gridcom said:


> She then focused on my STBXW and told her she needed a better job. So, they argued for a few minutes. Anyway, the mediator hasn't gotten back to us on a follow up to next mediation. Is it possible she took $1800 of our money and is done with us? I suppose.....
> 
> I'm finding all of it alarmingly funny, regardless.


She probably won't officially ax you, She'll just avoid you until you move on.



gridcom said:


> I guess I am just trying to numb all the pain and angst with work. I've been working nonstop. I went to a company retreat for a week and that was cool. While I was away, the STBXW had her co-worker over. You know, the one who lied for her and hid things from me and basically facilitated the affair. If you go back and read page.....58-61 (total guess!) I was very vocal about this woman not being in my house. I didnt think it's right that she drinks the wine I pay for or feel the warm heat I pay for, but yet there she was spending the evening enjoying these things that I provide even though she helped my STBXW have an affair. This didn't sit well with me and I was pretty vocal about it. Doesn't matter. These are things I just have to endure.


Your wife filed right? Where does that stand or are you just waiting to see how mediation turns out? You might want to get the divorce ball rolling on your own or you might be glaring silently across the room at your ex next New Year's Eve at midnight, too. 



gridcom said:


> This weekend, she went to her sisters house for a big family party. Brought the kids. They took a big family photo, and she tagged me on Facebook. Now, why in the f&ck......Eh, nevermind


So precious! Maybe you should unfriend her? And her family and friends?



gridcom said:


> Like someone said, page 143-144 (total guess!), the cavalry is not coming to help.
> 
> Anyway, be back soon once something happens. Otherwise, it just sounds like complaining.


Complaining is more than welcome here, call it venting and it takes on a therapeutic quality. I gotta say that your missus stumps me sometimes. It's like she's in la-de-dah land and doesn't grasp the coming reality. She's just delaying the inevitable and thinking she can friendzone you, then raise the kids together in the same house, while dating other people and letting you pay all the bills. It's very arrogant...


----------



## MattMatt

Smell her breath. If it smells of Unicorn milk milkshake she is beyond saving.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

She is delusional and probably has been for a long time. She used Grid's love for her to conceal her messed up thinking.

Grid even told Tomato Soup about TAM but she is so narcissistic that she hasn't even bothered to read about herself here.

She is going to crash. Grid just needs to keep detaching. The impact of the crash will catch her attention.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

LongWalk said:


> She is delusional and probably has been for a long time. She used Grid's love for her to conceal her messed up thinking.
> 
> Grid even told Tomato Soup about TAM but she is so narcissistic that she hasn't even bothered to read about herself here.
> 
> She is going to crash. Grid just needs to keep detaching. The impact of the crash will catch her attention.


I think she'll just change dancing partners, and keep dancing.

"Word has it" she has one lined up and waiting.


----------



## G.J.

MattMatt said:


> Smell her breath. If it smells of Unicorn milk milkshake she is beyond saving.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Arhhh


----------



## MattMatt

G.J. said:


> Arhhh


It also gives them a bright pink milk moustache, too.


----------



## G.J.

O.M.G.

What with Vag fluids the other day and today milky shakes ala Unicorns...I don't feel well


----------



## Chuck71

Grid..... perk up! Pitchers / catchers reported today!

World can't come to an end during baseball season. 

We're fine till November


----------



## just got it 55

Chuck71 said:


> Grid..... perk up! Pitchers / catchers reported today!
> 
> World can't come to an end during baseball season.
> 
> We're fine till November


MY guys have been in Fla. for two weeks

That's what you need to do to climb out of the basement

Go Red Sox

55


----------



## bfree

just got it 55 said:


> MY guys have been in Fla. for two weeks
> 
> That's what you need to do to climb out of the basement
> 
> Go Red Sox
> 
> 55


I'm a Sox fan as well but Hanley Ramirez at first base? Might as well pull Mo Vaughn out of retirement.


----------



## eric1

Hanley showed up in shape, I'm cautiously optimistic (unlike my feelings on Pablo)


----------



## Chuck71

just got it 55 said:


> MY guys have been in Fla. for two weeks
> 
> That's what you need to do to climb out of the basement
> 
> Go Red Sox
> 
> 55


I wish I loved baseball like I once did. deep sigh The strike cut me, the steroids broke my heart, and 

the salaries deadened me. Compare ticket prices vs. attendance / team salaries. Compare them for 1996....

then 1986. Family can't afford to go anymore. Was nothing to pack up the ball team and go see a Braves

game 25-30 years ago. Now you have to put money aside for months for decent seats.

Sometimes.... I wish I could move to Ft. Myers... work for the Twins and see one of the remaining purities 

of the game.... spring training. After Opening Day.... I lose interest. Yes it is sad....


----------



## eric1

Chuck71 said:


> I wish I loved baseball like I once did. deep sigh The strike cut me, the steroids broke my heart, and
> 
> 
> 
> the salaries deadened me. Compare ticket prices vs. attendance / team salaries. Compare them for 1996....
> 
> 
> 
> then 1986. Family can't afford to go anymore. Was nothing to pack up the ball team and go see a Braves
> 
> 
> 
> game 25-30 years ago. Now you have to put money aside for months for decent seats.
> 
> 
> 
> Sometimes.... I wish I could move to Ft. Myers... work for the Twins and see one of the remaining purities
> 
> 
> 
> of the game.... spring training. After Opening Day.... I lose interest. Yes it is sad....



I travel around going to minor league games. It's so much more awesome


----------



## gridcom

If you could just pass a polygraph, everything would be so much easier. It’s not July 7 with Xxxxxx thats leading to your demise, its whatever your hiding.

I’ll be honest, it’s going to be sad to watch, but you made your own bed and we all have to suffer because of it.

And if that bed is your car, so be it


On Feb 29, 2016, at 1:11 AM, Xxxx Xxxxxxxxx <[email protected]> wrote:

Not that you care either way but know that I'm not in my car. I'm up at the house at XXXXX's.


----------



## Chaparral

Who.didn,t.know.that was the plan?


----------



## Chaparral

Btw, she's.meaner than a snake. You're lucky she did not take even longer to show her true colors. Some here are not finding out till their fiftie and sixties who they are really married to.


----------



## bfree

Wow. That's....wow....


----------



## Evinrude58

Very sorry grid. I'm sure that dagger she ground in is hurting. But one day it won't, and she won't be able to do this to you anymore. 

I truly believe this will come back to haunt her. Seeing you happy and her being miserable will be hard for her to bear. People like her will always be unhappy. It's just their nature.

You WILL get through this. And be a much happier man than ever. You'll wonder how you didn't realize she was an anchor around your neck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## manfromlamancha

gridcom said:


> If you could just pass a polygraph, everything would be so much easier. It’s not July 7 with Xxxxxx thats leading to your demise, its whatever your hiding.
> 
> I’ll be honest, it’s going to be sad to watch, but you made your own bed and we all have to suffer because of it.
> 
> And if that bed is your car, so be it
> 
> 
> On Feb 29, 2016, at 1:11 AM, Xxxx Xxxxxxxxx <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> Not that you care either way but know that I'm not in my car. I'm up at the house at XXXXX's.


Sorry I must be really dumb but I don't understand the above post.


----------



## Evinrude58

She sent her husband a message that she was sleeping at her affair partner's house. (The AP that she claimed she only had sex with ONCE).

She is not a good person. I just hope grid is glad he stayed in his own home instead of leaving so the AP could move in-- probably the day after he left.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## manfromlamancha

Wow! Is it not time to expose at work ?


----------



## manfromlamancha

This is starting to become more and more like LMJ's story!


----------



## farsidejunky

No exposure At work.

Discipline, Grid. The more of it you have now, the better you will be a year from now.

Do not respond.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Chaparral

What did the kids say when they woke up and found mommy was shacked up with her boyfriend?


----------



## farsidejunky

Grid, let me just add this. Your wife is a passive aggressive POS. I think she's possibly even angrier than you, she is just more vindictive.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## gridcom

Sorry, that wasn't the context. What's happened is that we've decided we needed to be physically seperated. We've been looking for a nesting apartment, that we can share/trade off, but havent found one yet. (Narrow parameters, mainly the biggest hold up is furnished and no lease or very short term lease), but we decided we needed to separate anyway for the sake of the kids (how.....ironic) because they could sense the angst in the house. So, for the last week, we've been trading off, she had to hustle to find a place to stay and sleep for a few days, then me (I went to Vermont...ahhh, the upside to working from home and from a cell phone), and yesterday she told me she may have to sleep in her car. I never responded to her.

The e-mail was saying actually she was staying at her friends place, not the OM. 

Sorry, I was not trying to make it seem like she was shacked up with him. Honestly, she would never send an e-mail that said that. That said, she MAY be. I honestly dont know. Anyway, there's an update. We are one mediation away from a full deal. She wants no alimony, but in turn doesnt want me to touch her retirement, which I've agreed to. 

I have hit the pause button on the final mediaition, because I am trying to figure out a way to keep the house. Either refinance or post divorce bankruptcy. I have no education on either one. We refinanced 5 years ago, but just to get a lower interest rate. We didnt take money out. The rents for 3 bedroom apartments around here are about $2400-$2900, my mortgage right now is $2085 per month. If there is a way to refinance, take money out to pay off the debt, and the mortgage goes up to $2700 (for example), then I would do that because this house is better than an apartment. And honestly, I really dont want to move. As you all know, unless you have money to have people do it for you, it's a massive pain in the neck


----------



## gridcom

And for those of you who are in total awe that 3 bedroom apartments around Westchester are average $2700, so am I.


----------



## farsidejunky

What were you trying to communicate in the post with the email that is misunderstood? I guess I don't understand the purpose of the post.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## gridcom

It was just an update really. Talks of sleeping in the car, and e-mails that are "woe is me"


----------



## ButtPunch

Keep trucking Grid....just keep trucking.


----------



## JohnA

Focusing on the practical is the way to be Grid. Keep trucking down that road. 

If you can (do not force it) staying in the home is huge. This is not only your home, it is your daughters home as well. But taking on debt you cannot meet is the worst thing you can do for your daughters. They need stability above all else. 

How are you doing in maintaing the changes in yourself you started at the beginning of this mess ? I went though a period of "why even bother" but got back on track. Staying on track greatly enriched my life and drove home on simple fact: it is how you respond to this is that defines you and you will be judged.


----------



## gridcom

I'm kicking a$$ on the yoga and diet. All good there.


----------



## bfree

gridcom said:


> It was just an update really. Talks of sleeping in the car, and e-mails that are "woe is me"


Yeah, poor her.


----------



## eric1

Woe is me is manipulation and that's it. Safe to ignore.

She's seeking to control you (it a form of cake-eating). Let her communication leave your brain as fast as possible, do not engage her for anything other than EXACT child-related matters and you're going to be just fine in the long run.


----------



## Chuck71

Lots of people follow your thread and don't post. Personally... I have had a very schit last 6-8 months.

Just as anyone else, I mumble how the fvck can it get worse. Then I think of your situation Grid. You never asked

for this and never deserved it. You tried to fix it... tried beyond what you should have. I admire the he!!

outta you. Your tenacity has inspired others. They have me......

On the home..... are you wanting to buy her half of the equity out or refi to erase all outstanding debt 

and refi in your name only?

If you have a "nest" house..... will you trigger when the thought of Pimples being there / sleeping in same bed you are

when TS is at nest home? This is just a hunch..... I don't think this kid would stay at your home while you

are at nest. I'm half certain he wouldn't stay with TS at nest home.

He's young..... he has other women he can see / have sex with. He didn't sign up for all this schit.

He has his own place..... TS would have to go to Pimple's place..... Pimples will not wish to get deeply involved 

in a heated D.


----------



## Chuck71

eric1 said:


> I travel around going to minor league games. It's so much more awesome


I couldn't agree more. I live a short distance to one and my fav team purchased them last year.

The Lookouts were a Twins farm team a number of years ago. It's not "cheap" but much more affordable

than the Braves. I haven't attended a major league game since the strike. Swore I never would.

When the last game was played at old Tiger Stadium... it dawned on me.... you're missing something.

I want to see Wrigley and Fenway. Last two historic parks remaining. I may one day see a Braves game....

I don't know. Guess I am trying in vain to hold onto some type of purity


----------



## LongWalk

You're doing a good job, Grid.

Hope you find a way to refinance.

TS is going to be pathetic. You've been protecting her serial cheating arse from life's troubles for your entire marriage. She is disgusted with herself and expresses it by being the victim, feeling anger towards you.

Your daughters are going to need your steadiness because TS is going to hunt for new men to latch onto. She may succeed because pvssy causes men to lose judgment.


----------



## Lilac23

gridcom said:


> Sorry, that wasn't the context. What's happened is that we've decided we needed to be physically seperated. We've been looking for a nesting apartment, that we can share/trade off, but havent found one yet. (Narrow parameters, mainly the biggest hold up is furnished and no lease or very short term lease), but we decided we needed to separate anyway for the sake of the kids (how.....ironic) because they could sense the angst in the house. So, for the last week, we've been trading off, she had to hustle to find a place to stay and sleep for a few days, then me (I went to Vermont...ahhh, the upside to working from home and from a cell phone), and yesterday she told me she may have to sleep in her car. I never responded to her.
> 
> The e-mail was saying actually she was staying at her friends place, not the OM.
> 
> Sorry, I was not trying to make it seem like she was shacked up with him. Honestly, she would never send an e-mail that said that. That said, she MAY be. I honestly dont know. Anyway, there's an update. We are one mediation away from a full deal. She wants no alimony, but in turn doesnt want me to touch her retirement, which I've agreed to.
> 
> I have hit the pause button on the final mediaition, because I am trying to figure out a way to keep the house. Either refinance or post divorce bankruptcy. I have no education on either one. We refinanced 5 years ago, but just to get a lower interest rate. We didnt take money out. The rents for 3 bedroom apartments around here are about $2400-$2900, my mortgage right now is $2085 per month. If there is a way to refinance, take money out to pay off the debt, and the mortgage goes up to $2700 (for example), then I would do that because this house is better than an apartment. And honestly, I really dont want to move. As you all know, unless you have money to have people do it for you, it's a massive pain in the neck


Do either of you have family nearby? It seems like a huge waste of money for a 'nesting' apartment that will probably be primarily for her. Why should you pay for that? Also if you set the precedent of paying for another apartment, could that somehow land you on the hook of continuing to pay after the divorce? I'd ask my lawyer before signing a lease or anything.


----------



## Chaparral

I would tell her to move in with her boyfriend.


----------



## Evinrude58

Chaparral said:


> I would tell her to move in with her boyfriend.


He's such a helluva good guy! Why hasnt she already??? Because he doesn't want her. But she's holding out for a dumb, wealthy one, most likely.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

Tomato Soup is a testy messed up cake eater who is in defensive mode. Her whole Grid has been a meany line is a sickening.

Something tells me that she is still married to you on Facebook. In other words, she is maintaining a work of fiction.

Reclaim the Pixies. Mr Spotify can have her.

By the way does TS suffer PMS?


----------



## lifeistooshort

Geez, her AP is all kinds of stupid to get involved in this. Young guy gets involved with married 40 year old woman with kids and no means of supporting herself? 

He's the biggest idiot here.

He should've cut her off as soon as it became clear her marriage was going to blow up. 

I'm unimpressed with both of them. It's not even like she dumped you for someone with something.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

lifeistooshort said:


> Geez, her AP is all kinds of stupid to get involved in this. Young guy gets involved with married 40 year old woman with kids and no means of supporting herself?
> 
> He's the biggest idiot here.
> 
> He should've cut her off as soon as it became clear her marriage was going to blow up.
> 
> I'm unimpressed with both of them. It's not even like she dumped you for someone with something.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'll disagree. TS lost how much?

How much did her walking dildo lose?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lifeistooshort

ConanHub said:


> I'll disagree. TS lost how much?
> 
> How much did her walking dildo lose?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh she's an idiot for sure, but if you look at it in terms of options he's a bigger idiot. She blew up her life but really she didn't have a ton of options; she was unhappy with grid (with some good reasons in my view) but she doesn't have the means to take care of herself and her kids. Her options were to stay with grid and try, which would likely have made her miserable, or blow everything up for AP. I personally think she should've gotten rid of toy boy and either worked on the marriage or found a way to amicably end it without other man waiting. 

AP, otoh, is now involved in the baggage of all she brings. .... but he likely had options. He didn't need to be saddled with this, he could've found a young single woman. And now she'll likely stay with him and have nowhere to go, so in addition to dealing with her kids and grid he has to worry about kicking her out into the street. 

We all know this thing with him is going to go south.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

Pimples won't take kindly to seeing TS at his door with her luggage. Ruins his lifestyle. To boot.... two kids... 

oh heII no! He will move on to his next conquest. Maybe he likes older women, I did in my 20s.

Course sleeping with M women wasn't my thing. No separated, no fresh from courthouse D final.

But Pimples may have dropped her a good while back... no sure way to know.

Maybe Pimples was what some call the exit A. TS shouldn't have placed all her eggs in one basket.

So many ways this could have ended with much more peace


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

He isn't saddled, he is CHOOSING to be a part of this mess. Unless he gets her pregnant, he can leave tomorrow and the baggage is gone.


----------



## ConanHub

lifeistooshort said:


> Oh she's an idiot for sure, but if you look at it in terms of options he's a bigger idiot. She blew up her life but really she didn't have a ton of options; she was unhappy with grid (with some good reasons in my view) but she doesn't have the means to take care of herself and her kids. Her options were to stay with grid and try, which would likely have made her miserable, or blow everything up for AP. I personally think she should've gotten rid of toy boy and either worked on the marriage or found a way to amicably end it without other man waiting.
> 
> AP, otoh, is now involved in the baggage of all she brings. .... but he likely had options. He didn't need to be saddled with this, he could've found a young single woman. And now she'll likely stay with him and have nowhere to go, so in addition to dealing with her kids and grid he has to worry about kicking her out into the street.
> 
> We all know this thing with him is going to go south.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He is a real catch! Snicker!

He hasn't lost anything or taken any baggage yet and I bet he won't.

He got to use her for a free prostitute and the ride is over and he will be done.

I'm sure she wasn't exactly perfect for Grid either. 

Yeah. She really has great prospects after she gets dumped by idiot boy.

Even if she keeps him for a while, she traded way down.

That's what happens when you start thinking with your crotch! LOL!

I feel for Grid and the kids. She deserves every ounce of misery her skankery has brought her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 225985

Lilac23 said:


> Do either of you have family nearby? It seems like a huge waste of money for a* 'nesting' apartment* that will probably be primarily for her. Why should you pay for that? Also if you set the precedent of paying for another apartment, could that somehow land you on the hook of continuing to pay after the divorce? I'd ask my lawyer before signing a lease or anything.


Not sure what Grid has in his plans, but typically in a nesting arrangement the kids stay in the primary home and the spouses alternate weeks (one week on, one week off) at the secondary apartment. So, it might not be primarily for him but instead each are in the secondary apartment half time (without the kids). So each would contribute equally to the costs of maintaining both "homes."


----------



## lifeistooshort

ConanHub said:


> He is a real catch! Snicker!
> 
> He hasn't lost anything or taken any baggage yet and I bet he won't.
> 
> He got to use her for a free prostitute and the ride is over and he will be done.
> 
> I'm sure she wasn't exactly perfect for Grid either.
> 
> Yeah. She really has great prospects after she gets dumped by idiot boy.
> 
> Even if she keeps him for a while, she traded way down.
> 
> That's what happens when you start thinking with your crotch! LOL!
> 
> I feel for Grid and the kids. She deserves every ounce of misery her skankery has brought her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I'm not sure she's thinking with her crotch. I think she's thinking with her anger, which can be equally if not more destructive. 

I don't know what her prospects are, but I agree that she traded down. Given her situation you'd think she'd at least dump grid for someone who could support her.

Why she'd blow up her marriage for an idiot like this I have no idea.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

lifeistooshort said:


> I'm not sure she's thinking with her crotch. I think she's thinking with her anger, which can be equally if not more destructive.
> 
> I don't know what her prospects are, but I agree that she traded down. Given her situation you'd think she'd at least dump grid for someone who could support her.
> 
> Why she'd blow up her marriage for an idiot like this I have no idea.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If she were simply angry, having sex with a kid and continuing to hold on to him despite destroying her family and herself wouldn't compute.

She is being led by hormone pumping gonads.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lifeistooshort

ConanHub said:


> If she were simply angry, having sex with a kid and continuing to hold on to him despite destroying her family and herself wouldn't compute.
> 
> She is being led by hormone pumping gonads.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Maybe it's just hard for me to fathom because I'm 41 and I don't do younger men. 

They hold no appeal and can't do anything for me so I can't comprehend blowing up my life for it. 

I left my ex so it's not like I can't comprehend dumping a spouse, but in my view I dumped him because he was a d0uchebag. I never would've dumped him for someone like this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

lifeistooshort said:


> Maybe it's just hard for me to fathom because I'm 41 and I don't do younger men.
> 
> They hold no appeal and can't do anything for me so I can't comprehend blowing up my life for it.
> 
> I left my ex so it's not like I can't comprehend dumping a spouse, but in my view I dumped him because he was a d0uchebag. I never would've dumped him for someone like this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It occurred to me that we might be giving TS too much credit.

Maybe she was never that bright.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

There were better ways to handle this than fvcking the first pole that cam along.....


----------



## LongWalk

lifeistooshort said:


> I'm not sure she's thinking with her crotch. I think she's thinking with her anger, which can be equally if not more destructive.
> 
> I don't know what her prospects are, but I agree that she traded down. Given her situation you'd think she'd at least dump grid for someone who could support her.
> 
> Why she'd blow up her marriage for an idiot like this I have no idea.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I guess that LS is right on here. TS never left home to spend the night with Mr Spotify. Grid refusing to let her openly commit adultery became an extra reason to be angry and resentful. She was unable to wean herself of the co-dependency. Even after she and Grid split, she is going to continue to be angry at him. She has blamed Grid for ages.

One the reasons that Grid admits to taking her for granted is that he has always blown off her anger because the reasons have usually been irrational from his perspective.

it would be interesting to know how much she blamed him for her earlier cheating. That's one reason she prefers divorce to reconciliation. She doesn't want to come clean.


----------



## ConanHub

LongWalk said:


> I guess that LS is right on here. TS never left home to spend the night with Mr Spotify. Grid refusing to let her openly commit adultery became an extra reason to be angry and resentful. She was unable to wean herself of the co-dependency. Even after she and Grid split, she is going to continue to be angry at him. She has blamed Grid for ages.
> 
> One the reasons that Grid admits to taking her for granted is that he has always blown off her anger because the reasons have usually been irrational from his perspective.
> 
> it would be interesting to know how much she blamed him for her earlier cheating. That's one reason she prefers divorce to reconciliation. She doesn't want to come clean.


That would go with the conclusion that she has never been that bright.

After everything posted, I am convinced she has always been about as smart as a Chihuahua attacking a Pit.

Not a crime to be slow but combine stupid with attitude and you have TS.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

The marriage was hardly one sided and TS is showing just how brilliant she is and I'm certain carrots would be impressed with her current brain power.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## gridcom

LongWalk said:


> it would be interesting to know how much she blamed him for her earlier cheating. That's one reason she prefers divorce to reconciliation. She doesn't want to come clean.


Not a doubt in my mind


----------



## tech-novelist

ConanHub said:


> The marriage was hardly one sided and TS is showing just how brilliant she is and I'm certain carrots would be impressed with her current brain power.


That's an insult to carrots! What have they ever done to you?


----------



## ConanHub

tech-novelist said:


> That's an insult to carrots! What have they ever done to you?


Alright. Cooked carrots aren't so bad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Evinrude58

I think she is likely from a home where she never had any expectations, and was given everything; then moved to another home with no expectations and everything provided for her with no responsibility on her part.
Result--- spoiled, entitled brat who never accepts responsibility for her own faults and deflects blame for her misdeeds on anyone but herself.

She met the coffee shop guy, felt entitled to a little fun. Now she's mad at grid for not accepting it, mad for him expecting her to do her part in the marriage, and mad for the fact that she knows she really can't blame anyone for the cheating.

She's so disconnected from the truth that she admits only to having sex with her coffee shop guy once.

Can't say she's sorry, can't accept responsibility, can't stay straight.
If ever a person needs to hit rock bottom and have to take care of themselves for a while and learn to be responsible, she does.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lifeistooshort

LongWalk said:


> I guess that LS is right on here. TS never left home to spend the night with Mr Spotify. Grid refusing to let her openly commit adultery became an extra reason to be angry and resentful. She was unable to wean herself of the co-dependency. Even after she and Grid split, she is going to continue to be angry at him. She has blamed Grid for ages.
> 
> One the reasons that Grid admits to taking her for granted is that he has always blown off her anger because the reasons have usually been irrational from his perspective.
> 
> it would be interesting to know how much she blamed him for her earlier cheating. That's one reason she prefers divorce to reconciliation. She doesn't want to come clean.


I think one lesson we can all take from this is to not write off our spouse's anger simply because we think it's irrational. If it bothers your spouse it should bother you, within reason.

You don't have to kiss your spouse's arse but you do have to pay attention when they tell you something bothers them.

I know Grid already confirmed it but I would've guessed that she blamed him completely for her cheating.

I think he has a big part in making her vulnerable to it but the actual decision to do it is on her, as is the decision to keep going when she could've ended it and dealt with the marriage, which in my mind caused much greater damage here then the initial cheating. It was her way of wielding power she hadn't had before.

But it will ultimately destroy her.....reminds me of the saying about revenge. That when you want revenge you first dig two graves.


----------



## Evinrude58

I don't think grid made her vulnerable to it. What she did was a selfish thing for herself. It had zero to do with grid.
I've seen women do this to greAt husbands. Very supportive and kind husbands.
It's all about them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lifeistooshort

Evinrude58 said:


> I don't think grid made her vulnerable to it. What she did was a selfish thing for herself. It had zero to do with grid.
> I've seen women do this to greAt husbands. Very supportive and kind husbands.
> It's all about them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wrong. The fact that women do this to great husbands doesn't mean he was one, and if you'd read his earlier posts you'd see he wasn't one. Period.

She's handled this badly and it will blow up in her face. But he definitely made her vulnerable to it.....don't forget that it was him that used to threaten divorce during their arguments, among other things, including controlling and all around bullying. He acknowledges this and is better for this acknowledgement.

You do him service by feeding this line to guys like this.....that they had no part in anything. It's good for him to own up to what he did and not do it to his next partner; telling him it had nothing to do with him will make him feel better for now but will only guarantee that he behaves in the same manner with his next partner.


----------



## ConanHub

lifeistooshort said:


> Wrong. The fact that women do this to great husbands doesn't mean he was one, and if you'd read his earlier posts you'd see he wasn't one. Period.
> 
> She's handled this badly and it will blow up in her face. But he definitely made her vulnerable to it.....don't forget that it was him that used to threaten divorce during their arguments, among other things, including controlling and all around bullying. He acknowledges this and is better for this acknowledgement.
> 
> You do him service by feeding this line to guys like this.....that they had no part in anything. It's good for him to own up to what he did and not do it to his next partner; telling him it had nothing to do with him will make him feel better for now but will only guarantee that he behaves in the same manner with his next partner.


Self improvement is fine. She had a part in their disfunction just like Grid but he didn't stick his penis where it doesn't belong!

Some people are butt stupid and I am convinced TS is.

Maybe she should have got some counseling about her issues and examined how she could improve instead of exploring her inner wh0re
and decimating her family.

She is either thinking with her crotch or is a low grade moron.

Grid is far better off without her either way.

I think you ascribe your intellect and character to wayward women often.

They aren't like you.

It is a bias that blinds.

I am losing track of how many times you have been wrong giving men advice to stop being jealous or insecure when their wives were actually disgusting tramps.

I don't have a gender bias or agenda concerning infidelity and I'm wondering why it is so important to you to not notice when women are cheating and why, when it is proven, you seem to lay blame on men.

Women don't create marital problems?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## gridcom

I think I'll have my next real girlfriend read this thread, honestly. I've gotten nothing to hide including that I'm not perfect. Honestly, there isn't a day that goes by that I don't wonder why I wasn't a better more caring and yes, LESS MEAN, husband when I had the chance. Despite what she did, it has no bearing on my own reflection.

We are looking for this "nesting" apartment and are coming up flat. I am actually sitting in a Days Inn about 15 miles from my house because we've decided not to be together at all. This started Friday. Honestly, the kids don't seem to mind. I thought it would bother them, but on the surface their business as usual. I could have stayed with friends or my sister, but I really need to get some work done and being in this gross little room I've cranked though some work. I bought a second monitor (a must) for $40 on Craigslist this AM. From the initial e-mail to having it in the Hotel Room, under an hour. Pretty nice one too. I'm geeking out.

I don't know where she is staying when it's her night, and I'm trying not to care. But, I totally expect her to be staying with him very soon if she hasn't already. And it bugs the f%ck out of me and I quickly get irrational. I know I'm long past supposedly getting over it, but yeah. No.

I do absolutely think there are more guys in our marriage that I don't know about. To the small circle of people that still talk to her (family and her closest friends) she paints me as this crazy person. And I offered her $10,000 in writing in front of a mediator to PASS a polygraph. Because I want to expose her....to her!!!!!!

She wants an amicable divorce. She thinks that when it's not her days with the kids, that she'll be coming over to my house to bake brownies with them afterschool, and I tell her "That aint happening" And I tell her if she wants that kind of post divorce relationship, "Pass a polygraph, prove me wrong, take the 10k, shove it up my a$$. Stand up and show the world I'm the one who's crazy" And she just responds "I have no reason to"

I know i HAVE to accept she's taking it to her grave, but I just can't. And again (and again, and again), I know people deal with this and worse every day. I've been Facebook messaging with an older GF (Of course!) who I havent seen in 17 years, and her husband died in a motorcycle accident and her current husband lost his whole jaw to smoking or whatever and looks really effed up. Or my friend who manages some great bands, who suddenly has Stage 4 Lung Cancer and is days away from death. I KNOW. I'm healthy, more healthy actually than I've been in quite awhile. i love my job. My kids, for now, are normal and funny and wonderful. 

But, it drives me so up a wall, the thought that Miss Bible Study, Miss PTA, Miss Making 100 Meatball's for the 5th Grade Pasta Dinner, has something in our marriage that she'd rather keep secret than reveal.

So much so, that I am sitting in a Days Inn.


----------



## lifeistooshort

You can have a reasonable divorce and coparent without her coming to make brownies at your house. That's called good boundaries, and your next gf isn't going to go along with boundaries like that anyway (don't ask me how I know this, I may have firsthand experience here). It serves no purpose to be an a$$hole, it's not going to influence a settlement.....but do fight for what's fair

Your wife doesn't want to be married to you? Then she can bake brownies at her own place and you guys can limit your discussions to kids.

You don't have to like her, you just have to coparent amicably.

I wouldn't worry about how she paints you.....these things have a way of working out. My ex trashed me to everyone who would listen.....even called my mom a YEAR after the divorce was final to give her "his side". Mind you I hadn't trashed him.....I had given my family my take on things because I thought I owed them that, but they had nothing against him.

He just ended up painting himself as crazy.


----------



## lifeistooshort

ConanHub said:


> Self improvement is fine. She had a part in their disfunction just like Grid but he didn't stick his penis where it doesn't belong!
> 
> Some people are butt stupid and I am convinced TS is.
> 
> Maybe she should have got some counseling about her issues and examined how she could improve instead of exploring her inner wh0re
> and decimating her family.
> 
> She is either thinking with her crotch or is a low grade moron.
> 
> Grid is far better off without her either way.
> 
> I think you ascribe your intellect and character to wayward women often.
> 
> They aren't like you.
> 
> It is a bias that blinds.
> 
> I am losing track of how many times you have been wrong giving men advice to stop being jealous or insecure when their wives were actually disgusting tramps.
> 
> I don't have a gender bias or agenda concerning infidelity and I'm wondering why it is so important to you to not notice when women are cheating and why, when it is proven, you seem to lay blame on men.
> 
> Women don't create marital problems?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Please do me the favor of pointing me to where I've told men to stop being jealous or insecure. Maybe I've forgotten, so when you remind me I'll revisit it.

I'm positive I've not told Grid to stop being jealous or insecure. 

I, unlike many, try to take a balanced view of things, which includes acknowledging that an affair is a crappy decision but a betrayed spouse isn't always a colossal victim. I've never advocated that a betrayed husband should suck it up and take it. If you want to help save a marriage all sides must be addressed.

I'm sorry you feel this way but you must have me confused with someone else.....I do not think it's mens' fault for a woman's choice to cheat. I think the men often have a part in creating the dynamic that causes one to be vulnerable, just as women who withold sex and intimacy help create a dynamic where there husband is vulnerable.

If we're going to start pointing fingers I could point out that you seem to have plenty of filthy names for cheating women but I have yet to see you use comparable terminology to describe cheating men.

In fact I'm pretty sure you referred to me as a crack wh0re making a business deal back in the day, when I shared my experience in informing my husband that I wanted to be married and if he didn't I understood but I'd have to look elsewhere.

Why do you insist on filthy name calling where women are concerned?

That's all I have to say..... I'm not going to threadjack anymore.


----------



## eric1

Life throws a lot of **** at people. Some dance through happy and dumb. Some get cancer. Some have special needs children.

Your lot in life is you need to get through this. You're not special or unique because this happened to you, but you can be exceptional with how you handle it.

You're handling it great. Every day you're going to get better and every day you're going to be the better person. Let that drive you now

PS: ****ty motels kick ass.


----------



## ConanHub

lifeistooshort said:


> Please do me the favor of pointing me to where I've told men to stop being jealous or insecure. Maybe I've forgotten, so when you remind me I'll revisit it.
> 
> I'm positive I've not told Grid to stop being jealous or insecure.
> 
> I, unlike many, try to take a balanced view of things, which includes acknowledging that an affair is a crappy decision but a betrayed spouse isn't always a colossal victim. I've never advocated that a betrayed husband should suck it up and take it. If you want to help save a marriage all sides must be addressed.
> 
> I'm sorry you feel this way but you must have me confused with someone else.....I do not think it's mens' fault for a woman's choice to cheat. I think the men often have a part in creating the dynamic that causes one to be vulnerable, just as women who withold sex and intimacy help create a dynamic where there husband is vulnerable.
> 
> If we're going to start pointing fingers I could point out that you seem to have plenty of filthy names for cheating women but I have yet to see you use comparable terminology to describe cheating men.
> 
> In fact I'm pretty sure you referred to me as a crack wh0re making a business deal back in the day, when I shared my experience in informing my husband that I wanted to be married and if he didn't I understood but I'd have to look elsewhere.
> 
> Why do you insist on filthy name calling where women are concerned?
> 
> That's all I have to say..... I'm not going to threadjack anymore.


I call men lizards, walking dildos, wastes of skin, etc.

I should actually invent more come to think of it.

I don't remember calling you a crack wh0re but will try and locate it.

Yeah. People who fvck there families over by skankery don't rate high enough to deserve honorable mention until they totally reverse course.

I'll research to make sure of my view of you but the most recent was LonelyHusband and his thread "wife no longer interested in me or sex"

You were 100% wrong in your perspective towards the beginning of that thread while you criticized posters who believed his wife was having an affair.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Nucking Futs

gridcom said:


> She wants an amicable divorce. She thinks that when it's not her days with the kids, *that she'll be coming over to my house to bake brownies with them afterschool, and I tell her "Oh no, their step-mom isn't going to go along with that. No way she'll want you in her kitchen." * And I tell her if she wants that kind of post divorce relationship, "Pass a polygraph, prove me wrong, take the 10k, shove it up my a$$. Stand up and show the world I'm the one who's crazy" And she just responds "I have no reason to"


Fify. :grin2:


----------



## Evinrude58

lifeistooshort said:


> Wrong. The fact that women do this to great husbands doesn't mean he was one, and if you'd read his earlier posts you'd see he wasn't one. Period.
> 
> She's handled this badly and it will blow up in her face. But he definitely made her vulnerable to it.....don't forget that it was him that used to threaten divorce during their arguments, among other things, including controlling and all around bullying. He acknowledges this and is better for this acknowledgement.
> 
> You do him service by feeding this line to guys like this.....that they had no part in anything. It's good for him to own up to what he did and not do it to his next partner; telling him it had nothing to do with him will make him feel better for now but will only guarantee that he behaves in the same manner with his next partner.


Nope, he wasn't a perfect husband, I wasn't a perfect husband, and the seemingly great husband wasn't a perfect husband. You aren't a perfect wife.
I have been in grid's shoes. His cheating wife has fed him a line if ****, purposefully making him feel guilty to assuage her own guilt, thereby amplifying in his mind every single bad thing he ever did. I read his posts carefully. He was not that horrible.
He was seeing himself through the lens of a cheater trying to justify her actions. 

If you can't see this, you're blind. It's written all over his posts. He was taking far, FAR too much responsibility for his failed marriage.
I'm tired of seeing adulterous wives do this time and again, and getting their bs reinforced by ladies on here that only see men as here on earth to pamper their wives every desire.
If he was so bad, she'd have left, not cheated.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

How often are you seeing a therapist?


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Dude you've got anger and control issues. All the TAM guys painting STBXW as some crotch motivated slvt just don't get women.

Fvckng just let go!!!!.WTF do you care what she thinks unless you're a control freak. You REALLY need to get a handle on your EGO - not your emotions.

Sure W made horrible choices - but these are the choices many women make when they react to controlling men

I honestly don't get why you don't get it.

She was spoiled, entitled, and never apologized. She has too much pride. So do you. Tragic outcome.

Accept that you lost and she fiund someone else. Who gives 2 sh*ts if YOU find him desirable or an ahole. Your opinion LITERALLY doesn't matter.

Sorry but let go!!!!!


----------



## ConanHub

TheTruthHurts said:


> Dude you've got anger and control issues. All the TAM guys painting STBXW as some crotch motivated slvt just don't get women.
> 
> Fvckng just let go!!!!.WTF do you care what she thinks unless you're a control freak. You REALLY need to get a handle on your EGO - not your emotions.
> 
> Sure W made horrible choices - but these are the choices many women make when they react to controlling men
> 
> I honestly don't get why you don't get it.
> 
> She was spoiled, entitled, and never apologized. She has too much pride. So do you. Tragic outcome.
> 
> Accept that you lost and she fiund someone else. Who gives 2 sh*ts if YOU find him desirable or an ahole. Your opinion LITERALLY doesn't matter.
> 
> Sorry but let go!!!!!


hopefully he will in time. I don't have to paint her as anything. She has done the painting herself. She is what she is.

I hope Grid keeps working on himself and improving too.

Hopefully she will grow a brain cell and start improving as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_

I get women BTW. If you think TS is an even fair depiction of women in stressful.marriages then you and I have seen vastly different women.

TS is pathetically impulse driven to the point of destroying herself and her family.

I agree that Grid needs to let go and not to worry about a stinkin polygraph.

Everyone already knows what she is.

If she isn't bright enough to see what she has become, too bad.


----------



## lifeistooshort

ConanHub said:


> I call men lizards, walking dildos, wastes of skin, etc.
> 
> I should actually invent more come to think of it.
> 
> I don't remember calling you a crack wh0re but will try and locate it.
> 
> Yeah. People who fvck there families over by skankery don't rate high enough to deserve honorable mention until they totally reverse course.
> 
> I'll research to make sure of my view of you but the most recent was LonelyHusband and his thread "wife no longer interested in me or sex"
> 
> You were 100% wrong in your perspective towards the beginning of that thread while you criticized posters who believed his wife was having an affair.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, I said that I didn't care for this mantra on TAM that there's always an affair involved, even when the guy admits he's been a lousy hb, and even when there is glaring marital problems tend to be overlooked in order to trash the slvt wife. And on top of that he's usually told that he's not really that bad.....but maybe he is that bad. Just as we have women who cheat for no reason other than excitement we have men who really are lousy husbands. I suspect a number of them are here on TAM and can't live with the fact that they were a lousy hb so they tell all the other men they're not that bad, this way they can convince themselves they weren't really that bad.


As I recall in lonleyhusband's case I said that I thought they'd drifted apart because I think he traveled a lot and they had basically led separate lives. How exactly is one supposed to have a good marriage when they aren't together? I see that one a lot too.....husband is gone all the time and the only thing addressed is the slvt wife who became vulnerable because she doesn't have her husband around, not the fact that he's not around.

The fact that she turned out to be having one doesn't nullify that statement, and to harp on her affair without looking at the broader issues in the marriage doesn't help anyone, unless the aim is to get him divorced. Which it might be, and all betrayed spouses are certainly justified in walking, but many don't want to. Affairs have to be dealt with, but so do all of the other marital issues.

I happen to be of the view that if you neglect your spouse or otherwise treat them like crap you help make them vulnerable, and I apply that to myself as well. If I didn't have sex with my husband and otherwise neglected him how could I blame him for becoming vulnerable to the attention of someone else? I'd hope he'd have the fortitude to come to me and make the decision to remain faithful, but I certainly couldn't blame him for being vulnerable.

I realize this is an unpopular view and that's fine, as I said I apply it to myself as well. You find that women in general are a lot more willing to visit their part when their husband cheats, assuming they actually had a part in it, because sometimes they don't. 

But I never told lonleyhusband to stop being jealous and insecure.....I rarely use those words because I dislike them. I feel that they are used to dismiss what are usually legitimate concerns.


----------



## ConanHub

lifeistooshort said:


> No, I said that I didn't care for this mantra on TAM that there's always an affair involved, even when the guy admits he's been a lousy hb, and even when there is glaring marital problems tend to be overlooked in order to trash the slvt wife. And on top of that he's usually told that he's not really that bad.....but maybe he is that bad. Just as we have women who cheat for no reason other than excitement we have men who really are lousy husbands. I suspect a number of them are here on TAM and can't live with the fact that they were a lousy hb so they tell all the other men they're not that bad, this way they can convince themselves they weren't really that bad.
> 
> 
> As I recall in lonleyhusband's case I said that I thought they'd drifted apart because I think he traveled a lot and they had basically led separate lives. How exactly is one supposed to have a good marriage when they aren't together? I see that one a lot too.....husband is gone all the time and the only thing addressed is the slvt wife who became vulnerable because she doesn't have her husband around, not the fact that he's not around.
> 
> The fact that she turned out to be having one doesn't nullify that statement, and to harp on her affair without looking at the broader issues in the marriage doesn't help anyone, unless the aim is to get him divorced. Which it might be, and all betrayed spouses are certainly justified in walking, but many don't want to. Affairs have to be dealt with, but so do all of the other marital issues.
> 
> I happen to be of the view that if you neglect your spouse or otherwise treat them like crap you help make them vulnerable, and I apply that to myself as well. If I didn't have sex with my husband and otherwise neglected him how could I blame him for becoming vulnerable to the attention of someone else? I'd hope he'd have the fortitude to come to me and make the decision to remain faithful, but I certainly couldn't blame him for being vulnerable.
> 
> I realize this is an unpopular view and that's fine, as I said I apply it to myself as well. You find that women in general are a lot more willing to visit their part when their husband cheats, assuming they actually had a part in it, because sometimes they don't.
> 
> But I never told lonleyhusband to stop being jealous and insecure.....I rarely use those words because I dislike them. I feel that they are used to dismiss what are usually legitimate concerns.


Your attitude towards the "TAM" mantra on the thread with LH was absolutely off.

You didn't even consider the possibility of an affair and agreed with someone who was ridiculing posters who thought his wife was cheating.

Talking about marital issues before exposing and stopping an affair is incredibly destructive to the BS and the issues won't get addressed anyway because the WS is still getting their brains fvcked out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

lifeistooshort said:


> No, I said that I didn't care for this mantra on TAM that there's always an affair involved, even when the guy admits he's been a lousy hb, and even when there is glaring marital problems tend to be overlooked in order to trash the slvt wife. And on top of that he's usually told that he's not really that bad.....but maybe he is that bad. Just as we have women who cheat for no reason other than excitement we have men who really are lousy husbands. I suspect a number of them are here on TAM and can't live with the fact that they were a lousy hb so they tell all the other men they're not that bad, this way they can convince themselves they weren't really that bad.
> 
> 
> As I recall in lonleyhusband's case I said that I thought they'd drifted apart because I think he traveled a lot and they had basically led separate lives. How exactly is one supposed to have a good marriage when they aren't together? I see that one a lot too.....husband is gone all the time and the only thing addressed is the slvt wife who became vulnerable because she doesn't have her husband around, not the fact that he's not around.
> 
> The fact that she turned out to be having one doesn't nullify that statement, and to harp on her affair without looking at the broader issues in the marriage doesn't help anyone, unless the aim is to get him divorced. Which it might be, and all betrayed spouses are certainly justified in walking, but many don't want to. Affairs have to be dealt with, but so do all of the other marital issues.
> 
> I happen to be of the view that if you neglect your spouse or otherwise treat them like crap you help make them vulnerable, and I apply that to myself as well. If I didn't have sex with my husband and otherwise neglected him how could I blame him for becoming vulnerable to the attention of someone else? I'd hope he'd have the fortitude to come to me and make the decision to remain faithful, but I certainly couldn't blame him for being vulnerable.
> 
> I realize this is an unpopular view and that's fine, as I said I apply it to myself as well. You find that women in general are a lot more willing to visit their part when their husband cheats, assuming they actually had a part in it, because sometimes they don't.
> 
> But I never told lonleyhusband to stop being jealous and insecure.....I rarely use those words because I dislike them. I feel that they are used to dismiss what are usually legitimate concerns.


If you point out theyre having an affair you will only be right over 95% of the time. Getting the "you guys were right" long after the thread is started when checking up on the spouse should have been done first might have saved some marriages.

Gridcom's thread is a perfect example of The Cloak Of Doom descending on a marriage and destroying any chance of saving a marriage.


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## ThreeStrikes

A spouse cheats because they feel lonely and neglected, which makes them vulnerable to....temptation (insert 'astonished gasp' here).

Well, I guess that's true when said spouse lacks character and integrity.

Lesson to be learned: find a life partner who possesses integrity and character. If they feel the relationship is going askew, they will take steps to correct the course. If their partner isn't up to the task, they will end the relationship. They won't demean themselves by cheating. They won't destroy lives with their petty selfishness.

'Thall shalt not commit adultery' is one of the 10 commandments. (Right underneath Thall shalt not commit murder.)

'Thall shalt not get angry' is not.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Oh boy, here we go, arguing TAM mantra. We have gender issues, spousal blame issues, CSA issues, BPD issues, jealousy issues, insecurity issues, etc. and it is disingenuous to say they are mantra. Mantra is whatever a group of people spit out to diminish the other people's posts when a disagreement occurs. Can we stop or create another thread to bicker in?


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## JohnA

Not sure what the big whoop is between you all on fundamental understanding of the nature of adultery. I see @lifeistooshort primarily refusing in Grids case to lose sight of his contribution in creating a toxic environment. It is one thing to admit to flaws, it is another to fundamentally change. If he is to have anything but short or long term relationships in the future he needs to address his flaws. Not for his current wife and marriage but for his next relationship. Yoga is fine for stress it does nothing for future relationships. 

As to his statement she is not coming over to bake brownies on my day, I don't have a big issue with that. While he needs to build some type of non-toxic relationship going forward, if it takes the form of a work place nine to five, I don't like you - you don't like me, get the job done, and go home that is fine. The question for Grid: is this reaction an out growth of his issues that create a toxic environment to begin with and as such reflects he has not changed. 

I believe his wife has gone off the deep end. She has chosen a response that always results in creating even worse problems. I also think it is far more likely "boy toy" is in fact a stalking horse. That there is or was another guy from the PTA or other group activity. 
I think there is a lot of rewriting going on. The current version of "boy toy" is far different then the one in Gird's opening post. 

As to the kids being fine with a rotation, that is often normal in the day to day life of children on the surface and heathier. However it masks a growing problems emotionally in the same way diabetes exists for years before the damage done shows. Grid, while quietly rejecting any responsibilty for your wife's actions, the best thing you can do for your daughter is overcome your flaws and be 
open to how it effected your marriage. Two wrongs do not make a right?


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## Pluto2

People choose to cheat because they want to cheat.
Sorry, but we all have options in this world, and if you choose poorly there are consequences.
Lots of spouses, myself included, have felt vulnerable during their marriages and never considered cheating. So one wrong does not follow the other.

The betrayal of infidelity can, and IMO, should be treated separately from any other issue going on in a relationship. Not that other issues should be ignored, but there is no way to resolve a communication issue in a relationship with someone who is continuously, and repeatedly lying to their partner.

Grid, you will get to the point when the crap coming out of her mouth won't impact you the way it does now. Nesting is all the fad, but from my admittedly limited exposure to it with other couples, it sucks and makes it more difficult to regain your own life. I've only known one couple that did it successfully, and they divorced with no animosity (no infidelity). But money is money, so good luck.


----------



## LongWalk

I think Grid appreciates Lifeistooshort's insights. The history of their marriage:

Grid was an awkward geek with talent.

TS recognized that he was a motivated, earnest man. She wanted to have family with him.

She was attracted to him in part because she had issues and did not want to deal with them. Marrying a man who thought he was below her on the sex ranking ladder empowered her to cheat from very early on in their marriage.

Grid, concentrating on making a living, turned a blind eye to her cheating and character flaws. He did not treat her with respect. And she probably did not deserve it but since she was his wife he should have listened to her more.

The bottomline is her exit affair is blowing up their lives. Her own more than his.

Grid wants the polygraph because he still wants to fix her and take her back. She knows she is too broken. He knows it, too, but he hates to give up. She is like Hillary Clinton lying about the email server.


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## JohnA

@LongWalk, could you reference post numbers for earlier adultery ? I missed it. Also a post numbers for her issues. I missed the post(s) for previous adultery and might have missed or failed to grasp the full significance about her issues. 

Thanks 

Actually now would be a great time to summarizes this thread.


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## farsidejunky

There was never any confirmed prior adultery. A comparison was made between grids wife and another wayward. It was extrapolated from that comparison along with some other, significant red flags that grid thought of in retrospect.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Pluto2

revisionist history is alive and well on this thread. Grid, about time to duck and cover.


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## JohnA

Hi @gridcom,

I see you liked my post 4685 Could you share what found useful and what was not. Tobe honest it was a bit of a 2x4 directed at you. Although that does not change my bias that you (and BS) should get the home, primary custody and some child support. 

Have you studied NY custody state laws to position yourself for max custody? Yes, I know it seems like men get the short stick but there is wiggle room.


----------



## Evinrude58

Calling betrayed spouses bad husbands who caused their wives to cheat is not helpful. Telling spouses that describe textbook red flags with their wives that betrayed spouses here on TAM are having biased opinions is also a problem. You NEVER hear any of the whining posters here that say the biased, BS's are wrong about the problem in the OP's marriage being due to more than 2 people in the marriage, come back and apologize when the "biased Bspouses" are proved 100% correct. It appears they are incapable of admitting they were wrong.

Again and again I see men coming here who their wives say are great husbands and dads, but just don't love them anymore; describing their situation and it's red flags galore. Their wives are obvious cheaters.

If there are just as many that cheat and describe their husbands as really good men, as there are that the husband says they themselves were crappy husbands, where is the conclusion that the bad husband somehow MADE THEM VULNERABLE? Certainly the good spouses didn't make their cheating spouses INVULNERABLE, right?

I believe TAM itself shows that the cheating is all about the selfish, irresponsible, trashy spouses and very little of the cheating has to do with "vulnerability".

I'm biased. I admit it. When I see all the red flags that I once saw myself, I try to warn the man or woman that their spouse is very likely cheating and to find out. 
But the people here that are biased against husbands WILL NOT admit their own bias. 
They just move on talking about how the crappy husband got what he deserved, basically.

I know we are all biased. But in the case of a cheating spouse, the betrayed spouse shouldn't be told it's their fault. The BS's goodness or crappy-ness has nothing to do with the cheating. I think that's a whole separate thing. And blaming the betrayed spouse is really a mind-**** they don't need at that moment. They're already hearing all the bullsh** from the cheating spouse. And I firmly believe that most of what the cheating spouse says is Bull****. They are by definition liars and deceivers.

Particularly in Grid's case, he has shown lots of introspection on his own bad behavior. He owned his stuff. But whatever that was, it was NOT the reason for the worthless wife's affair. That needs to be put to rest.

And if Grid is not keen on cutting his wife out of his life in as many ways possible (as it appears he is), he will just be hurt by her more and more. This woman will always feel the need to point out why Grid is a bad husband or dad, just to make her feel better.
Be prepared Grid. She'll never be gone on her own. You'll have to make her gone. You weren't nearly bad enough for her to hate you. She hates herself, and will need to drive you to hate her so she can feel better.


----------



## JohnA

Grid, you mentioned a twin sister. You also said the twin ad hubby thought your WW was crazy. What is their marriage like?


----------



## LongWalk

farsidejunky said:


> There was never any confirmed prior adultery. A comparison was made between grids wife and another wayward. It was extrapolated from that comparison along with some other, significant red flags that grid thought of in retrospect.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I think Grid is looking back and seeing the red flags that bothered him at the time still sticking up. I think his gut is telling him the truth. She has always been a cheater.

She is unstable. Her behavior is very much like Acoa's ex WW. 

I imagine that co-dependency creates a need. The cheater needs to feel alive via the affair. At the same time she has long held herself together by leaning on Grid. She is wiggling her marriage back forth like loose tooth. It hurts to wiggle it and yet she has to pull it out.

Grid's request for the polygraph really bothered her, not just because she is ashamed of her history of fornication. She cannot stand the idea of trying to fix herself. It's hard work and she is not ready. May never be ready.


----------



## gridcom

JohnA said:


> It is one thing to admit to flaws, it is another to fundamentally change. If he is to have anything but short or long term relationships in the future he needs to address his flaws. Not for his current wife and marriage but for his next relationship. Yoga is fine for stress it does nothing for future relationships.
> 
> As to his statement she is not coming over to bake brownies on my day, I don't have a big issue with that. While he needs to build some type of non-toxic relationship going forward, if it takes the form of a work place nine to five, I don't like you - you don't like me, get the job done, and go home that is fine. The question for Grid: is this reaction an out growth of his issues that create a toxic environment to begin with and as such reflects he has not changed.


Well, I think this is on point. Admitting it is nice, but not being able to overcome it is another issue. I have gone periods on time in the last 8 months where I have been calm for stretches at a time, even after there was no doubt the marriage was completely over (early Dec). I have found myself at times at peace with it all and even moments where I look into the future and get excited by the possibilities.

That said, I cannot at all deny that being blindsided completely by this, the provacative way in which I discovered it all, and the constant sense of helplessness has absolutely at times consumes me. When Life Is Too Short references her ex calling her mother a year after the divorce and explaining his side, I can see myself doing that.

I try not to post much here because to many here, who have been through something similar or worse, or who have handled it better than me, there must be an overwhelming sense of "get over it already"

The idea that this woman threw her whole family under the bus for this guy is just obscene to me. I'm trying to get it in our agreement that he cannot be around the kids for one year after the divorce is final and she is refusing. And I know, there are guys out there who's wives cheat, then the guy moves out and the AP moves into the guys house and sleeps in the guys bed and takes over the guys closet and uses the guys drill and lawnmower and people just accept it. 

But, it's heartbreaking from a distance to understand that and truly horrific to even imagine it may happen to me.

I have not seen STBXW now in over a week. However, in all this "calm" of a one parent house, my 10 year old daughter today has a melt down at school and starts crying in front of the class. I noticed something was not quite right when she got off the bus, but didnt pry.

Her teacher called me about an hour later and told me she just got overwhelmed with emotion about "her parents" and melted down in front of all of her peers. This made me so angry. What did this poor girl do to deserve this? My STBXW got the same call and I just cant imagine how she processes this. Is she so lazer focused on this guy that it's in one ear or out the other? or does her heart completely break because all the things Ive been warning and worried about are now beginning to happen. 

Now the school psychologist is meeting with both of kids tomorrow. 
And I just want to do something about it. I dont want them to feel like this. I dont want to have a kid that feels overwhelmed like that with grief. This should have/could have been prevented.

It's truly a nightmare

But, I clicked like on your comment because, like I said, I am having a hard time CHANGING. I am aware enough and reflective enough to know what needs to be done, but can't apply it.

I saw my therapist today and it interesting. She doesnt say much, just leads me into conversations and often challenges me. But, she doesn't offer A to Z tips and tools on how to apply any of the idea's. 

She says I am angry to hide the sadness and my thought is "Oh, great!" Just what I wanted. If my sadness was vanilla ice cream in a coffee cup, my anger is hot fudge on top spilling over the cup onto the floor and making a trail out of the house and forming a mud pit at the bottom of my yard.


----------



## Chuck71

Everyone "gets over" episodes / events on their own time frame. 

No time table..... plus.... it is your thread.

Baby steps..... two steps forward, one step back... that's "life"


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Grid if you're a normal guy, you suck at identifying your emotions. Basically everything feels like angry and more angry.

I saw a therapist and found that I was hurt and sad and felt like my needs weren't being met. I had NO idea.

But once I realized what I was actually feeling it was much better because I finally got it - I wasn't stuck and I coukd acknowledge my emotions and process them.

Stick with this. Once you can rcognize your sadness and grief you will be able to let go of your anger and move on. I think your therapist is on to something.


----------



## lifeistooshort

gridcom said:


> Well, I think this is on point. Admitting it is nice, but not being able to overcome it is another issue. I have gone periods on time in the last 8 months where I have been calm for stretches at a time, even after there was no doubt the marriage was completely over (early Dec). I have found myself at times at peace with it all and even moments where I look into the future and get excited by the possibilities.
> 
> That said, I cannot at all deny that being blindsided completely by this, the provacative way in which I discovered it all, and the constant sense of helplessness has absolutely at times consumes me. When Life Is Too Short references her ex calling her mother a year after the divorce and explaining his side, I can see myself doing that.
> 
> I try not to post much here because to many here, who have been through something similar or worse, or who have handled it better than me, there must be an overwhelming sense of "get over it already"
> 
> The idea that this woman threw her whole family under the bus for this guy is just obscene to me. I'm trying to get it in our agreement that he cannot be around the kids for one year after the divorce is final and she is refusing. And I know, there are guys out there who's wives cheat, then the guy moves out and the AP moves into the guys house and sleeps in the guys bed and takes over the guys closet and uses the guys drill and lawnmower and people just accept it.
> 
> But, it's heartbreaking from a distance to understand that and truly horrific to even imagine it may happen to me.
> 
> I have not seen STBXW now in over a week. However, in all this "calm" of a one parent house, my 10 year old daughter today has a melt down at school and starts crying in front of the class. I noticed something was not quite right when she got off the bus, but didnt pry.
> 
> Her teacher called me about an hour later and told me she just got overwhelmed with emotion about "her parents" and melted down in front of all of her peers. This made me so angry. What did this poor girl do to deserve this? My STBXW got the same call and I just cant imagine how she processes this. Is she so lazer focused on this guy that it's in one ear or out the other? or does her heart completely break because all the things Ive been warning and worried about are now beginning to happen.
> 
> Now the school psychologist is meeting with both of kids tomorrow.
> And I just want to do something about it. I dont want them to feel like this. I dont want to have a kid that feels overwhelmed like that with grief. This should have/could have been prevented.
> 
> It's truly a nightmare
> 
> But, I clicked like on your comment because, like I said, I am having a hard time CHANGING. I am aware enough and reflective enough to know what needs to be done, but can't apply it.
> 
> I saw my therapist today and it interesting. She doesnt say much, just leads me into conversations and often challenges me. But, she doesn't offer A to Z tips and tools on how to apply any of the idea's.
> 
> She says I am angry to hide the sadness and my y thought is "Oh, great!" Just what I wanted. If my sadness was vanilla ice cream in a coffee cup, my anger is hot fudge on top spilling over the cup onto the floor and making a trail out of the house and forming a mud pit at the bottom of my yard.


I'm going to address you and not anyone else on this thread at this point as people are just getting nasty.....alternative viewpoints are not well tolerated here. Anyone who wants to duke it out with me can do so at their own risk  on a thread dedicated to that.

What your stbx has done is many times worse then anything you ever did. As Long Walk said, she has completely gone off the deep end for this d0uchebag and is acting like an idiot 16 year old, not a 40 year old woman with children.

What you're going through is a process. My ex and I had quite a nasty divorce and it took a number of years to get past it, but now we get along ok. There were times that the very thought of him would p!ss me off and I'm sure he'd tell you the same thing about me. I'm sure there are still things about me that p!ss him off and if you asked him about the divorce he'd launch into victim mode, and clearly there are still things that p!ss me off. But despite that we get along pretty well.....it's been a long time and we've settled into something amicable.

And you know what? He recently had some legal trouble with a neighbor that I knew well and I've been a character witness for him as I do not think it was his fault. I know this neighbor and I know the kind of crap he pulls. Ex's lawyer told me it's quite powerful for an ex spouse to testify as we're usually the ones who want to see ex go down.

It's very possible you'll get there too, but I think you're going to have to accept that there may be things you'll never have an answer to. I think there will come a day that your wife will regret her actions here; that doesn't necessarily mean she'll regret a divorce, but I believe she will come to regret her actions here even if she never admits it to you, which she probably won't.

This is a process for your kids too and they will experience their own waves of grief. But such is life, and how you deal with it will go a long way toward their healing. When my kids would ask about our divorce I'd tell them that sometimes things just don't work out, but we were both happy we gave it a try long enough to have them. The real answer in my view is that ex is a nasty d0uche, and in his view it's probably that I'm a loud mouthed b!tch that doesn't know my place as a woman. But we don't tell the kids that.....he's been very good about not bringing the kids into it and I've never uttered a poor word about him.

Your changes will come one step at a time and the path will likely be bumpy, but a lot of personal growth is like that. Just try to be aware of your behavior at any given time and make a small effort to behave differently, and eventually that will add up.

But please resist the urge to call your MIL after a year to tell her your side of things. I know from my own experience with the ex that this will only make you look like a pathetic idiot with a grudge. If you happen to have reason to speak to your MIL and it comes up by all means share your thoughts in a way that doesn't trash her daughter, but do not go out of your way to start it.

You said her parents are aware of her actions, right?


----------



## gridcom

lifeistooshort said:


> But please resist the urge....


therein lies the issue


----------



## happy as a clam

Completely agree with @Pluto2...

"Nesting" (sharing a second pad with your ex to alternate the marital home with kids) SUCKS... This is very difficult, even under the best of circumstances. Talk about being stuck in limbo H*ll... If you can't maintain one household with this scourge of a person, what on earth makes you believe you can maintain TWO households with her??

Do you really want to sleep somewhere where she will liking be scr*wing Pimples?!

And grid... just some friendly advice: Give up the "no boyfriend around your kids for a year" clause. It's just petty and punitive and no court in the land will enforce it unless he's a drug addict or a pedophile.

Move on.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

happy as a clam said:


> Completely agree with @Pluto2...
> 
> *"Nesting" (sharing a second pad with your ex to alternate the marital home with kids) SUCKS*... This is very difficult, even under the best of circumstances. Talk about being stuck in limbo H*ll... If you can't maintain one household with this scourge of a person, what on earth makes you believe you can maintain TWO households with her??
> 
> And grid... just some friendly advice: Give up the "no boyfriend around your kids for a year" clause. It's just petty and punitive and no court will enforce it unless he's a drug addict or a pedophile.
> 
> Move on.


I can't even imagine.

I'd be buying new sheets every weekend.


----------



## JohnA

Hi Grid, 

It is easy to get lost in the grind of ending a marriage. When adultery occurs to often it prevents the BS from making changes that would enrich their lifein the future. The issues in the BS become fused with adultery to the point the issues justify the adultery. Look, make the changes you are striving for and your ex will be eating her heart out when she sees your next marriage. 

Thanks for answering my post.


----------



## LongWalk

Lifeistooshort has a good analysis. I agree that TS may eventually regret what she has done but she is not well prepared to deal with it. Her feelings of resentment and anger towards Grid are like water that automatically rises to cover and cancel her conscience and reason.

Her commitment to OM is huge. As I wrote earlier, for the sake of Grid's kids let's hope OM is a basically good person. If he is a positive person, he may be the lesser of evils. For who is TS going to latch on to if Spotify is not a viable partner? Is she going to grow as a person if she now begins man hunting?

A lot of people who have been betrayed ask the question: "Who was this person?" Liar, actor, hypocrite, etc. were not the features that drew him or her to the cheater. Now they loom large.

To Grid TS has been enormously offensive. But he is detaching. In this process discovering negative things about TS will become less important than discovering positive things about Grid. The girls are upset. Getting mad at TS is now useless. Grid simply needs to be there for the girls.

When I divorced I read my daughters stories every night before bed. I am not a perfect person or perfect father. But they have never doubted that I love them. They don't doubt their mother's love either.

Grid will get into shape and find peace. He will find someone new, someone better than TS. 

The nesting arrangement is simply the economic reality of expense of housing in the NY area.


----------



## Divinely Favored

No way in he'll would I leave my house so cheating spouse could come home and play like things are normal for a little while. But if I was required to I would have the appt and home completely wired for sight and sound. I would know her next move before she does.


----------



## eric1

Divinely Favored said:


> No way in he'll would I leave my house so cheating spouse could come home and play like things are normal for a little while. But if I was required to I would have the appt and home completely wired for sight and sound. I would know her next move before she does.



I have a friend who does this. 

Let me preface it by saying he's the completely opposite guy who would do this. But finances and the children made him do it. 

They were not allowed to bring significant others into the house and he installed Dropcams at each door. He gave her the passwords as well, what's fair for the goose is fair for the gander. I suppose they could have slipped through the windows or whatever, but there were penalties for not complying. 

Within that year, with written consent (and background check) you were allowed to bring in someone else. What basically happened was the cheating wh0re wife got dumped the second the free lay turned into the AP's problem. As there is not a market for slightly overweight cheaters with two kids she never was able to get anyone other than losers looking for an easy lay. My buddy (no icon of health himself) managed to find a very decent woman who plays an excellent second mother to the kid. 

Let me tell you guys - the market for stable good dudes between 35-50 is amazing. You get to pick from hotties in their 20s who want 'stability'. You get to pick from women in their 30s who had their fun but now feel the impending doom of aging. And you have women in their 40s, ones who may be divorced, free spirits who aren't going to cling or career women.


----------



## lifeistooshort

gridcom said:


> therein lies the issue


Sorry man but what kind of answer is that? You're a grown man, you can resist pretty much any urge you want.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pluto2

Grid, when my marriage exploded my youngest was in the 4th grade. She didn't want to show much emotion at home because she didn't want me to be hurt. But at school she did have a couple of meltdowns. Her school counselor brought her in a few times and it honestly helped. I reassured her as much as a could that she doesn't have to pick sides. She will always have two parents and both of them love her.

And as they say actions speak louder than words. My ex's behavior since he moved out has shown her a lot. So my advice would be to reassure your DD. Say nothing about TS., allow her to be angry at BOTH of you, and always let her know that you will take care of her. 

As for your recovery, I hope you can start to understand that NO ONE thinks you should just get over it already. Everyone has a different path, with different obstacles. Recovery is a process as you've already discovered. I may be wrong, but to me it sounds as though your therapist wants you to mourn the loss of the relationship. IMO, you have to process the anger from the betrayal before you can mourn-but that's just me and like I said, everyone is different.
You're doing better than you think.


----------



## bfree

lifeistooshort said:


> Sorry man but what kind of answer is that? You're a grown man, you can resist pretty much any urge you want.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, as adults we should resist destructive urges and harmful calls from our base natures. But it's not always as easy as all that is it? If it were then Grid and TS wouldn't be in this mess would they because she would have been able to resist her urges.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

If all adults acted correctly in marriages abuse would be nearly non-existent, people would accept their foibles and there would be much less cheating and divorces. Let's stop pretending men can't be emotional and they can easily resist their urges because they are grown. It's even funnier because we have pages and pages of men insulting themselves and women insulting men because we are dumb penis thinking machines who cannot resist our base urges.

Yet, somehow, when terrible things like this happen all of these insults don't matter because men are "grown" and should act better. Jails, Prisons and the graveyard are full of men and women who should have acted grown. Just goes to show it is easy to say the words, but hard for MILLIONS of people to enact them.


----------



## Ms. GP

I agree with @lifeistooshort. I would resist the urge to tell your side of the story. Do you you have every right to be angry? Yes. Should the people closest to you know? Yes. You need their support.

But telling anyone and everyone who will listen is just a way to keep it all going. Ultimately, to heal you need to walk away from it. Who cares what people think? Of you or her for that matter? They don't matter. What matters is you can walk away with your head high because you chose the uncomfortable road of self reflection and positive change. Unfortunately, you're the only one that chose that road for the time being.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you react to it.


----------



## LongWalk

Grid's doing a good job. It wouldn't surprize anyone if in 6 to 8 months time TS is going to be asking Grid for advice, looking at him with puppy dog eyes for signs that he forgives her. It depends on her luck in love.

TS should not bring OM to the house because it will disturb the girls. Does she understand this?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

We have multiple threads of women picking houses with their other men. We have multiple threads of men bringing other women around their kids living spaces during separation. Understanding has NEVER stopped people from following their urges, contrary to what people believe about adults.


----------



## JohnA

Hi phillbeff all to true. Self-entitled and in the fog never a good mix, eh ? 

Chuck71 nicely put. To build on it: therefore don't define and judge yourself on a spouses adultery, instead define and judge yourself by how you react to it.


----------



## Lilac23

gridcom said:


> We are looking for this "nesting" apartment and are coming up flat. I am actually sitting in a Days Inn about 15 miles from my house because we've decided not to be together at all. This started Friday. Honestly, the kids don't seem to mind. I thought it would bother them, but on the surface their business as usual. I could have stayed with friends or my sister, but I really need to get some work done and being in this gross little room I've cranked though some work. I bought a second monitor (a must) for $40 on Craigslist this AM. From the initial e-mail to having it in the Hotel Room, under an hour. Pretty nice one too. I'm geeking out.


Sounds like a great way to save money! :smthumbup:



gridcom said:


> I don't know where she is staying when it's her night, and I'm trying not to care. But, I totally expect her to be staying with him very soon if she hasn't already. And it bugs the f%ck out of me and I quickly get irrational. I know I'm long past supposedly getting over it, but yeah. No.


It just takes time.



gridcom said:


> I do absolutely think there are more guys in our marriage that I don't know about. To the small circle of people that still talk to her (family and her closest friends) she paints me as this crazy person. And I offered her $10,000 in writing in front of a mediator to PASS a polygraph. Because I want to expose her....to her!!!!!!


Most people are eventually exposed for what they are. Every time a divorced person tells me their story, I wonder the 'other guy's' side is.



gridcom said:


> She wants an amicable divorce. She thinks that when it's not her days with the kids, that she'll be coming over to my house to bake brownies with them afterschool, and I tell her "That aint happening"


We don't always get what we want. >




gridcom said:


> I know i HAVE to accept she's taking it to her grave, but I just can't. And again (and again, and again), I know people deal with this and worse every day. I've been Facebook messaging with an older GF (Of course!) who I havent seen in 17 years, and her husband died in a motorcycle accident and her current husband lost his whole jaw to smoking or whatever and looks really effed up. Or my friend who manages some great bands, who suddenly has Stage 4 Lung Cancer and is days away from death. I KNOW. I'm healthy, more healthy actually than I've been in quite awhile. i love my job. My kids, for now, are normal and funny and wonderful.
> 
> But, it drives me so up a wall, the thought that Miss Bible Study, Miss PTA, Miss Making 100 Meatball's for the 5th Grade Pasta Dinner, has something in our marriage that she'd rather keep secret than reveal.
> 
> So much so, that I am sitting in a Days Inn.


Life's little mysteries will drive you batsh!t crazy if you dwell on them. She has been revealed as a cheater, how many times or people it happened with cant erase that fact. Try to find things to be excited about in your future, she's fast heading into your past.


----------



## Lilac23

gridcom said:


> I have not seen STBXW now in over a week. However, in all this "calm" of a one parent house, my 10 year old daughter today has a melt down at school and starts crying in front of the class. I noticed something was not quite right when she got off the bus, but didnt pry.
> 
> Her teacher called me about an hour later and told me she just got overwhelmed with emotion about "her parents" and melted down in front of all of her peers. This made me so angry. What did this poor girl do to deserve this? My STBXW got the same call and I just cant imagine how she processes this. Is she so lazer focused on this guy that it's in one ear or out the other? or does her heart completely break because all the things Ive been warning and worried about are now beginning to happen.
> 
> Now the school psychologist is meeting with both of kids tomorrow.
> And I just want to do something about it. I dont want them to feel like this. I dont want to have a kid that feels overwhelmed like that with grief. This should have/could have been prevented.
> 
> It's truly a nightmare


Have you and your wife talked about how to handle it? You still have to communicate about the kids, just don't bring it how this is her fault during the conversation. You could try discussing ways of how to explain things to the kids together so that you are on the same page. I think a big thing is to reassure the kids that you will always be there for them and try to make them feel secure as possible. But let them know it's ok to be sad too, it's a sad thing they are going through. Don't let them feel your anger at their mother when they are sad because they will think they are the one's making you angry then internalize it.



gridcom said:


> But, I clicked like on your comment because, like I said, I am having a hard time CHANGING. I am aware enough and reflective enough to know what needs to be done, but can't apply it.


No one can apply it for you.



gridcom said:


> I saw my therapist today and it interesting. She doesnt say much, just leads me into conversations and often challenges me. But, she doesn't offer A to Z tips and tools on how to apply any of the idea's.


She's trying to help you become aware of your own cycle. Once you understand your own process, than you can recognize when it is happening and begin to work on changing it.



gridcom said:


> She says I am angry to hide the sadness and my thought is "Oh, great!" Just what I wanted. If my sadness was vanilla ice cream in a coffee cup, my anger is hot fudge on top spilling over the cup onto the floor and making a trail out of the house and forming a mud pit at the bottom of my yard.


She's probably right, anger is a secondary emotion, triggered by a primary one. It's safer to say 'I'm angry' then to be vulnerable and say 'I'm hurt'.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Lilac23 said:


> She's probably right, anger is a secondary emotion, triggered by a primary one. It's safer to say 'I'm angry' then to be vulnerable and say 'I'm hurt'.


Ah the derail we could have on this one. Not only is this hotly debated, sadness and hurt is triggered in the same way.


----------



## JohnA

Hi @GirdCom, 

As to a "get over it" attitude: it's a process that takes time and is over when it is over when it is. Each of us has or own backstory. Each of our stories as unique events that changes our story form other stories. Our timelines are ours alone and while our goals may be the same the particulars are different. So for example a person might want to move to the US the exact location will be different. Hell someone might want to move to LA. 

I read your thread early on. My impression was the changes you said you needed to make where spot on. I thought even if you did succeed she was gone, I hoped you would continue to work on them not for her but for the next women in your life and your daughters. So in someway shape or form I figured months ago we would be here. I also knew I could be wrong and this was an event you would handle in your own way and on your own timeline. So I dropped in from time to time made a few comments hoping you would keep them in the back of your mind and might find them useful down the road. 

Your therapist is right to focus on the nature of your anger and getting to the root causes of it. It's important to discuss and develop general habits and response (i.e, a toolbox) you do need to know if you need to bring tools for an electrical problem or a plumping problem. The reason why trust and comfort with your therapist is because you will need to fly blind for a bit and ket them fly the plane. 

Hey to me you clinking like on the post I referenced shows a huge step forward for you to me. Ask yourself this: in my wife's mind, how would I reacted a year ago to that comment.


----------



## Lilac23

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Ah the derail we could have on this one. Not only is this hotly debated, sadness and hurt is triggered in the same way.


Duluth Model! :smile2:


----------



## ThreeStrikes

How's life, grid?


----------



## gridcom

Life is strange. We have a "nesting" apartment. It has spiders. I killed one. The landlord got mad because I killed it because he's a buddhist. Whatever. I dont know if Cougar Robinson (new nickname) has even been there. I think she just stays at the BF's house

We had mediation and I got her to agree to the new guy not being introduced to my kids for one year from last Friday. When it came to enforcing it, however, that seems to be slippery slope. I asked that if she breaks the agreement I get my half of her retirement, which I waived my rights to. She came in saying "Well, we've been talking about a vacation this summer and having the kids introduced to him then" and I grinded it to a full year from March 11

Ah, whatf*ckingever. I havent seen Cougar in almost 3 weeks now, except for mediation. I am trying to buy her out of the house. My sister, who hasnt said one single thing to Cougar since this began, sent her a letter. I dont know exactly what it said, but I'm sure I could guess. Cougar told her that while she knows she didnt do the right thing, she wanted to be with someone who makes her happy and she isnt at all remorseful about wanting that. She told my sister that I was mean to her while we were married and she made the decision to move onto someone who makes her happy.

I've just been laying low. Not much I can do except focus on the kids and let Cougar Robinson do whatever it is she wants to do. There's no stopping her


----------



## Chuck71

Is likin' da new nicka! So Cougar Robinson said you were mean to her "cwying bo bo teaws"

Seriously? I see she never lived in a glass house. But did.... attend church *I rowl*

Landlord should care for his creatures.... just sayin'. Next time you see a few, confine them w/ air hole,

feed them.... then set all twelve loose in his place of living. If he says nothing.... give him his dues... doubt that happens.....

ALL about HER and Pimples..... okay, you n her are done, I get that. But does this vagina toting garbage scow

(see Johnny Carson 1987) not realize.... putting her emotions and a stranger with a pogo stick before her

girls is just *not****ingrightanywayyoulookatit*

Yousa seein' da True a' Coulahs" I would say Cougar Robinson is a piece of cow dung but it would be a 

disservice to cow dung...... they do kill rats.


----------



## turnera

Good news: Now you see the truth. And can move on with head held high and integrity.


----------



## Evinrude58

I'll bet my next paycheck she won't make it a year with this loser.
But who cares? You will be getting your life back in order. You'll be enjoying the newfound benefits of being single. You'll be learning just how negative your wife's influence was in your life. 
Your wife says you were mean? Uh huh. She should know all about mean-- she is an expert, after all.
She has to make you as evil as possible in her mind to keep from feeling the massive guilt and conviction this thing she has done entails. 
Try to get your mediator to fit in the Agreement that the loser of any breeches of the divorce contract has to pay the winner's lawyer fees. 
Also, make sure there is a clause so that she can't move away and take your kids with her.

Good luck. I hate to see the nesting thing, but it is what it is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lilac23

gridcom said:


> Life is strange. We have a "nesting" apartment. It has spiders. I killed one. The landlord got mad because I killed it because he's a buddhist. Whatever. I dont know if Cougar Robinson (new nickname) has even been there. I think she just stays at the BF's house


Are his parents ok with that?



gridcom said:


> We had mediation and I got her to agree to the new guy not being introduced to my kids for one year from last Friday. When it came to enforcing it, however, that seems to be slippery slope. I asked that if she breaks the agreement I get my half of her retirement, which I waived my rights to. She came in saying "Well, we've been talking about a vacation this summer and having the kids introduced to him then" and I grinded it to a full year from March 11


I believe this is quite hard to enforce unless there is something actually proven dangerous about him, like a criminal record. And how much retirement does she actually have? Doesn't she make like McDonald wages?



gridcom said:


> Cougar told her that while she knows she didnt do the right thing, she wanted to be with someone who makes her happy and she isnt at all remorseful about wanting that. She told my sister that I was mean to her while we were married and she made the decision to move onto someone who makes her happy.


So many things wrong with those sentences. Basically, she knows she's being wrong and selfish but she's just going to do it anyways because she's trying to justify her indefensible actions. Other people don't make you 'happy', either, that's a crock of bs. It may not comfort you much now but in a few years you will be fine and she may be on her second divorce. JHC, she reminds me of a teenager with no thought for the future or reality, when you think everything will just work out 'because it has to'. Which is sweet n' all, don't get me wrong, love makes the world go round but it's not really a good position for a mom to take. 





gridcom said:


> I've just been laying low. Not much I can do except focus on the kids and let Cougar Robinson do whatever it is she wants to do. There's no stopping her


What are you doing on your days off from the kids? Getting to the gym and out of the house much?


----------



## LongWalk

Cougar Robinson and Boy Starbucks probably talk about you a lot. He is afraid of you. After all, an angry husband who collects baseball cards might pick up a baseball bat. It still hurts your STBXW that you are mean. She would think it so cool if your were to be friends. But she knows you don't want to be pals with a serial cheater. She doesn't know for sure that you look and see her behavior in the early years of your marriage in a new context.

She lost her integrity long ago. That is why she successfully concealed the affair for a year. She was experienced at cheating.

Boy Starbucks is a project. She probably believes that he will become as or more successful than you. It would be interesting to hear her talk about everything that she has done for your ungrateful arse. Her list of resentments is radioactive. Now that you don't have to see her, the healing is going to be a lot quicker. Hope you can buy her out of the house.

Will be interesting to see how long Boy Starbucks is willing to kiss her foot.


----------



## TeddieG

Loving the nicknames. Thanks for the update Grid. Good to hear from you, even if the progress is painful. Hang in.


----------



## happyman64

Grid

Lay low. Keep the focus on you and the kids.

Your WW can play all her games with her self and her favorite Barista!

The average barista makes $9.18 an hour. 

HM


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## Chuck71

LongWalk said:


> After all, an angry husband who collects baseball cards might pick up a baseball bat. .


So he DOES collect cards! Grid.... are you a Stairway to Heaven baby ('71) or a '72er? Either way.... here's a 

suggestion. Collect the Topps set of your birth year. Either year... you will get the same /structure/

Each year has series... couple low series, couple mid series, couple semi-hi series, and one high series.

WTFs the difference? A 1971 Hoyt Wilhelm (low series) lists at $4. His 1972 high series is $25.

My "arrival set" as a collector came when I finished my 1972 set (NM set pulls at least $1600).

It was my first muscle set.... break up value of the set is < $2500. Start by buying an unfinished set.....

can be as cheap as $150 but... most big $ cards are missing. Building the set is "the rush."

When I did my 1971 set, it was special... my birth year. Or being a Mets fan.... try a 1970 set!

Card #1 in the '70 is a Mets World Championship card. Want memories of your childhood to return....

that is one sure fire way. Any set with a Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, Roberto Clemente and Ernie Banks in 

it can never go wrong! If you're interested... throw a PM.


----------



## gridcom

I actually have a bunch of sets from the 70's. The one that has eluded me is the iconic '75 set. Brett/Yount rookies and the whole design make that one $400 in any decent condition. Not the kid of money I can throw around right now.


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## Chuck71

There's a lot of intrigue with the 1975 set. It's always sold higher than the 1974. The print spots and off-centering are horrid. I'm not a stickler on O/C but when the cards are 90 / 10 ..... seriously! I try to overlook these two and focus on the corners. If you look for all three of these flaws you might as well only buy graded cards / sets. I've seen a 1975 set.... all 660 cards graded a PSA 8 or 9 sell for $2400. Graded sets / cards are easy to re-sell but the high initial investment is risky. One might sell set mentioned card by card and only get $2000, or $3500 (mostly what I see). Yeah $1100 profit..... deduct shipping costs and EBay fees and.... yeah! But sometimes you get lucky and list a set like that and several 1975 collectors are buying.... profit time! But it's a crap shoot.... and anytime you turn your hobby into a business venture.... it never ends well.

The 1975 should be worth a lot more.... Jim Rice and Gary Carter rookies in the set too. About a dozen other rookies of semi-stars (Fred Lynn, Keith Hernandez, Dennis Leonard, etc.). It's hard to build sets pre-1986 because you can't find boxes anymore and.... the ones you do.... have they been searched? If you do find one from a dealer who is very reputable... be prepared to pay more for the box than what you would an already complete set (it takes two boxes to make a 1975 set w/ many extras). Why?.... better chance at busting a box and getting a perfectly centered, no print spots, excellent color, razor sharp corners Brett / Yount rookie or a Ryan / Rose / Winfield card. Send it off.... get graded a PSA 10 and you've hit the jackpot. Doesn't sound much like a hobby does it? Sounds like playing the lottery....

So.... that's why set prices pre-1986 have been going up modestly in the last fifteen years. Btw... I did collect all through my childhood and college years (always said better to spend it on that rather than wine n women... least you'd have something to show from it). Around 1996 it felt more like a job than a hobby. The 1994-95 strike didn't help either. I stopped collecting and a couple years later started selling them on-line. They sold for more than I thought they would over the next few years (none were sold on EBay thank God) and I even kept back some special cards I really never wanted to sell.

About the time I sold everything.... the addiction returned. I'll stop here... I've talked you to death. Would be glad to go into more detail about my second time around collecting but just want to make sure you'd care to hear it. Question.... do you have a 1973 set?


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## farsidejunky

BGS or noting on graded.



Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## gridcom

I had a huge display case of graded cards
I read this book
http://www.amazon.com/Mint-Conditio...sr=8-1&keywords=mint+condition+baseball+cards
and then sold all my graded cards and bought sets with the money. My earliest/oldest set is 1976. But I also have 77,78,79 (my favorite), 80,81, and 83. I also have 81 donruss uncut sheets on the wall of my office. And I kept a few graded cards, like Willie Mays, Mickey Mantle, etc


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## TheTruthHurts

I wonder how many of those I put in the spokes of my Schwin Stingray. I was 9 in '71 so just sayin'. The gum was always so brittle and horrible.


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## farsidejunky

I am more of a football card man myself. I had some pretty sexy BGS/BVG graded cards.

1948 leaf Leo Nomellini rookie, graded 4, 1950 Bowman Y. A. Tittle and Hugh McElhenny rookies, graded 6 and 6.5 respectively.

At one time, I had rookie cards of every Hall of Fame or respectable 49er, and had almost all of them BGS/BVG graded. I sold nearly all of them.

There are still a few hanging around.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## gridcom

Here's what I've learned through all of this, as we head towards month 9

I took my wife for granted
She fell in love with another man

The End.

316 pages of "never made a difference / too late, no longer matters / do better next time"

All the nuances and annoyances and back and forth and bitterness after those first two sentences mean absolutely nothing.


----------



## Chuck71

Do you feel she took you for granted?


----------



## NWCooper

People do take each other for granted in long term marriages. It happens. No one is perfect. You try not to let it become stale and old hat. It still happens. You try harder, you put the work in. What you don't do is screw someone else because they show you attention you think you need and deserve. If you can't get what you need from your spouse, then you end it honorably because you owe that to your children and, yes, to your spouse. You figure out what you need and then you are free to find it. You don't get to find it at the expense of others, because you are grown up and you made a commitment and you had other little people that depend on you. That is the end of the story.


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## manfromlamancha

gridcom said:


> Here's what I've learned through all of this, as we head towards month 9
> 
> I took my wife for granted
> She fell in love with another man
> 
> The End.
> 
> 316 pages of "never made a difference / too late, no longer matters / do better next time"
> 
> All the nuances and annoyances and back and forth and bitterness after those first two sentences mean absolutely nothing.


It cannot be simplified to just those statements Grid. You need to insert some more adjectives to do with your wife and you.

You were grumpy, uncaring etc etc

She was non responsive, argumentative, entitled, and here it comes … lacking in morals!!!!! 

As others have said, it is par for the course to take each other for granted. Its your moral DNA that helps you do the right thing or even partially right thing. Sleeping with another man is completely the wrong thing to do. You really need to stop justifying that one thing.


----------



## Chuck71

I am assuming in most / all states that require a year wait / separation before filing D....

the least one could do is file a formal separation before seeking / being with other people.

After it is divided down... almost all WSs want to "test drive" their new "love" beforehand..... Heaven forbid they

file separation and find out their "new toy" isn't what they expected. Then they have nothing and 

spilled the beans to the BSs. Chance one takes.... At least being honorable about it would.... leave some respect intact. 

We rarely see it here on TAM. In my state it is 60 days no kids / 90 with... if everything is agreed upon.

With those guidelines.... maybe more would attempt to do the honorable thing.

But I doubt it......


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> Here's what I've learned through all of this, as we head towards month 9
> 
> I took my wife for granted
> She fell in love with another man
> 
> The End.
> 
> 316 pages of "never made a difference / too late, no longer matters / do better next time"
> 
> All the nuances and annoyances and back and forth and bitterness after those first two sentences mean absolutely nothing.


Come on Grid.....I hope you have learned a little more than that.


----------



## Pluto2

gridcom said:


> Here's what I've learned through all of this, as we head towards month 9
> 
> I took my wife for granted
> She fell in love with another man
> 
> The End.
> 
> 316 pages of "never made a difference / too late, no longer matters / do better next time"
> 
> All the nuances and annoyances and back and forth and bitterness after those first two sentences mean absolutely nothing.


Grid, I get that you are feeling bad.
BUT what an ego you have.

You and you alone controlled the mind, heart and loins of another sentient being. Your every act (or lack thereof) resulted in the utter decimation of the marriage. 
*****, please. 

Let's take it as a given that you took your wife for granted. Not a great spousal thing to do. While you were ignoring her did you also tie her up in a closet and gag her. No? Well then guess what? She had the power and ability and responsibility to speak up. She could have said "Hey Grid. Its me here, Your wife. Knock this crap off and be the husband I married." 

Let's say she did say that, or something along those lines and you still didn't change-you horrible Gridman, you. Now is it all your fault? NO. She could have done what literally thousands of people do who end up divorced. She could have said, "Grid, I've tried. this isn't working. We need to split and get a divorce" and she could have done this before she hooked up with little mr. starbucks. She chose not to. She could have actually made an effort in MC. She chose not to. She chose to lie to you and the kids and break her vows and sleep with another man. She was a coward who found it easier to boink another man than to work to fix her marriage.

If you controlled the world, your post would be close.
You don't control the world, and you never controlled your wife. She betrayed you. It hurts.


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## Evinrude58

Your wife was banging another man for over a year, continues to do so, throws it in your face, and would make no effort whatsoever to reconcile.
The "man" is a barista at a coffee shop and is slapping nasties with a married woman with kids. he obviously is no person of character.
She's also a total liar and says they "only had sex once".

Yet you have let her convince you that the divorce is all YOUR fault. Don't be so weak minded and let her use her Jedi mind tricks on you. 
The problems in your marriage Pre-affair were partially YOUR fault, partially HER fault. The breakdown of this marriage were HER fault for GIVING another man the emotions that belonged to you, her husband. If that had not happened and she had asked for a divorce on the grounds that you were a bad husband, you might have had the chance to become a better husband while she still had feelings for you. She was disloyal and threw away any chance you both had to reconcile and have a happy marriage.

These are not the Droids you're looking for..... I mean, This is not the attitude you should take from this. I think you are wrong.

Good luck. I still hope that your wife miraculously finds herself and sees things as they really are.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Pluto2 said:


> Grid, I get that you are feeling bad.
> BUT what an ego you have.
> 
> You and you alone controlled the mind, heart and loins of another sentient being. Your every act (or lack thereof) resulted in the utter decimation of the marriage.
> *****, please.
> 
> Let's take it as a given that you took your wife for granted. Not a great spousal thing to do. While you were ignoring her did you also tie her up in a closet and gag her. No? Well then guess what? She had the power and ability and responsibility to speak up. She could have said "Hey Grid. Its me here, Your wife. Knock this crap off and be the husband I married."
> 
> Let's say she did say that, or something along those lines and you still didn't change-you horrible Gridman, you. Now is it all your fault? NO. She could have done what literally thousands of people do who end up divorced. She could have said, "Grid, I've tried. this isn't working. We need to split and get a divorce" and she could have done this before she hooked up with little mr. starbucks. She chose not to. She could have actually made an effort in MC. She chose not to. She chose to lie to you and the kids and break her vows and sleep with another man. She was a coward who found it easier to boink another man than to work to fix her marriage.
> 
> If you controlled the world, your post would be close.
> You don't control the world, and you never controlled your wife. She betrayed you. It hurts.


Love it Pluto!


----------



## TeddieG

gridcom said:


> Here's what I've learned through all of this, as we head towards month 9
> 
> I took my wife for granted
> She fell in love with another man
> 
> The End.
> 
> 316 pages of "never made a difference / too late, no longer matters / do better next time"
> 
> All the nuances and annoyances and back and forth and bitterness after those first two sentences mean absolutely nothing.



I hit the wall at month 9 myself. I thought he'd be back at six months. But at nine months, I saw my standard of living changing and I saw the loss of my neighborhood and my garage and moving back into a crap apartment with my car out in the elements. Just those small things meant a lot to me, my safe neighborhood and my garage. 

But I got mad. You're not getting mad, from the sounds of it. You're getting depressed. That's anger turned inward. You're mad at the wrong person.

As all your friends here have said, your wife had an azzload of options, with cheating being the LEAST effective method to repair a marriage. 

But this anger and depression is part of the process of grief, and it means you're inching your way to acceptance, even if you are still crawling through the slough of denial on your knees.


----------



## TeddieG

Blossom Leigh said:


> Love it Pluto!


Me TOO! Give that woman an award.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

TeddieG said:


> I hit the wall at month 9 myself. I thought he'd be back at six months. But at nine months, I saw my standard of living changing and I saw the loss of my neighborhood and my garage and moving back into a crap apartment with my car out in the elements. Just those small things meant a lot to me, my safe neighborhood and my garage.
> 
> But I got mad. You're not getting mad, from the sounds of it. You're getting depressed. *That's anger turned inward. You're mad at the wrong person.
> *
> As all your friends here have said, your wife had an azzload of options, with cheating being the LEAST effective method to repair a marriage.
> 
> But this anger and depression is part of the process of grief, *and it means you're inching your way to acceptance*, even if you are still crawling through the slough of denial on your knees.


Love this one too! 

I've been seeing some REALLY good posts on TAM today.. and some really good ones yesterday. This will be two days in a row that I've logged off with a big ole smile on my face. :smthumbup::toast::circle:


----------



## ThreeStrikes

gridcom said:


> Here's what I've learned through all of this, as we head towards month 9
> 
> I took my wife for granted
> She fell in love with another man
> 
> The End.
> 
> 316 pages of "never made a difference / too late, no longer matters / do better next time"
> 
> All the nuances and annoyances and back and forth and bitterness after those first two sentences mean absolutely nothing.


Ha! Guess you'll be repeating the same cycle, then.

Some learn faster than others.....


----------



## happyman64

Grid

I take my wife for granted everyday.

- I expect her to come home to me everyday and she does.
- I expect her to have the same respect for me that I have for her.
- I expect her to love and support our children every day and she has never failed them.
- I expect her to honor the vows we took as much as I do.

I am no prize. I have stage 2 diabetes and stage 4 cancer that I am fighting every day. I try not to be too grouchy and not complain.

She has been to every chemo therapy appointment and waits on me hand and foot.

The worst thing I ever did to her was ignore my ED issues which made her ask me if I no longer found her attractive. That hurt me deeply knowing I hurt her feelings and was not being honest with her.

When I explained what was going on she marched me off to the doctors with her the very next day and found out I was diabetic.

Not once has she ever complained. She has the highest self respect I have ever seen in a woman and is the main quality that initially attracted me to her.

In summary:

So you might have taken your wife for granted but your wife failed you, failed the marriage and failed your family.......

Never forget it.

Move on. Improve yourself. And keep the focus on you and your family.

HM


----------



## GusPolinski

gridcom said:


> Here's what I've learned through all of this, as we head towards month 9
> 
> I took my wife for granted
> She fell in love with another man
> 
> The End.
> 
> 316 pages of "never made a difference / too late, no longer matters / do better next time"
> 
> All the nuances and annoyances and back and forth and bitterness after those first two sentences mean absolutely nothing.


To be fair, if she's been cheating for as long as you suspect, was she really worth it?


----------



## just got it 55

TeddieG said:


> I hit the wall at month 9 myself. I thought he'd be back at six months. But at nine months, I saw my standard of living changing and I saw the loss of my neighborhood and my garage and moving back into a crap apartment with my car out in the elements. Just those small things meant a lot to me, my safe neighborhood and my garage.
> 
> But I got mad. You're not getting mad, from the sounds of it. You're getting depressed. That's anger turned inward. You're mad at the wrong person.
> 
> As all your friends here have said, your wife had an azzload of options, with cheating being the LEAST effective method to repair a marriage.
> 
> But this anger and depression is part of the process of grief, and it means you're inching your way to acceptance, even if you are still crawling through the slough of denial on your knees.


Grid lots of great support here but.... Pay close attention to this particular post

Better days Brother Better days

55


----------



## Archangel2

Grid - I think you oversimplified this too much, because you lost sight of some good things that you have done and sold yourself short. Allow me to make some edits:



gridcom said:


> Here's what I've learned through all of this, as we head towards month 9
> 
> I took my wife for granted
> She fell in love with another man
> I MADE A GOOD FAITH EFFORT TO FIX OUR PROBLEMS THROUGH COUNSELING AND RETROUVAILLE
> I NEED TO ACCEPT THIS OUTCOME AND REALIZE I FOUGHT THE GOOD FIGHT
> I HAVE THE TOOLS TO BECOME A GREAT SPOUSE TO THE NEXT MRS GRID
> 
> The End.


Peace and strength, my friend.


----------



## turnera

So, grid, what brought on this pity party?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Yes, inquiring minds would like to know 

So I second the question turnera asked....

what triggered that feeling G?


----------



## LongWalk

Grid's sarcasm was just a valve letting off steam.

He has had lots of time to think about her deceit. Her cheating probably had a much longer history. Grid is angry at himself for turning a blind eye to it.

Grid,

You took your wife for granted in part because she was never all in. 

The conflicts and arguments that caused you to tune out, what percentage did she provoke?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

There was no sarcasm in that post, he meant it. He's reflecting and through therapy probably accepting his fault. I think they were both all in and this thing called life pushed them to take each other for granted. Some people swing to far to one side when they hit the acceptance phase. If this thread tells us anything about grid, he is one of those people who tends to run hot or cold during emotional times. When he calms down again, he'll most likely see they both did silly things, but she chose the scorched earth avenue.


----------



## gridcom

Hi everybody- 

Been a few weeks, so I figured I'd say hello. Things are reasonably calm with few bumps right now. We have the "nesting apartment" and are going back and forth while the kids stay in the house. Cougar Robinson is full on in love with the BF, staying at his place, dedicating songs to him on her favorite stations request hour. I still look, I cant help it. 

We had an argument about her spending money on her BF, as I "kind of /sort of" intercepted her trying to purchase something for them to do and told her I wasn't going to pay the minimum's on her credit cards if she was going to use it for him. Common sense, right?

I will tell you that I have been on a dating site (POF) and the good news is that, yes, there are in fact plenty of high quality, post 40, smart and sassy ladies out there who want to engage me. The bad news is that I don't know if I am fully ready or just dont have my "groove back". I honestly never had groove, so I am inventing it from scratch. I've been watching video's from this guy Coach Cory Wayne. Anybody ever heard of him? 

With the dating, he's been helpful. I say dating, but I've only been on two dates. One went really, really well and the other I was not into it from the jump. But, there are more dates out there for me than there are free nights, because I'm still a pseudo single dad workaholic and them's the facts. The date that went really well is getting a second date on Saturday. Say what you want, I can use the companionship.

I am trying to refinance the house. Waiting for the bank to come and assess the value of the house. The loan has essentially been approved, just depends on how the math works based on the property value. In that case, she will leave, the kids will stay as this being their primary home. She will have them 1/2 the time, wherever that may be. Today is my day in the house, and I got them off the bus. She'll come here at 5pm after work, take them to dinner, bring them back at 6:30 and go do her thing for the night.

My kids are going to need therapy, I think. i am looking for one for them. I am concerned for both of them. They act normal 90% of the time, but then there are directly related meltdowns. For my 10 year old, she's going through, uh, changes so it's expected. My younger one doesn't understand why she is all alone between after school and when I am done working. The older one goes on her ipad and facetime and watches make up videos on YouTube. The younger one, I'm making sure she is in my office with me, at least so she isnt so alone.

I want to thank everyone once again and I especially want to thank the one and only Cougar Robinson for this special gift that she brought into our lives.


----------



## JohnA

Hi Grid, 

Good to hear from you. Glad you are keeping the house, it will make all the difference in the world going forward. Your house will aiways be home to your daughter. Am I correct the nesting is tempory until she gets her own place? If so how long till she can get her own place? What your wife does not realize is going forward when she has custody your daughters will feel that they have to be out of the house to be with her avd they will resent her. 

Be well and keep working on your issues.


----------



## gridcom

JohnA said:


> Hi Grid,
> 
> Good to hear from you. Glad you are keeping the house, it will make all the difference in the world going forward. Your house will aiways be home to your daughter. Am I correct the nesting is tempory until she gets her own place? If so how long till she can get her own place? What your wife does not realize is going forward when she has custody your daughters will feel that they have to be out of the house to be with her avd they will resent her.
> 
> Be well and keep working on your issues.


I'm hoping they will be resentment free. But, I can only do what I can do to keep things stable and happy for them
Thanks


----------



## Evinrude58

Grid,
POF in my area was full of women who were pretty damaged, or just wanted casual sex. Zoosk was pretty good, and all the women have tons to choose from. Most have the good sense to look for good quality guys, some just want sex, most are desperate for a stable man. I had my luck on Match.com for both of the ladies I really liked. The pay sites have a better range of people, I think. The last one I'm still dating and hoping to marry if it all works out.
I got on those sites and it was very hard not to become a person who likes the attention and likes lots of it from different women. It can be addictive, actually, and it eventually will get you tired of dating. Hopefully, you will find one that is a good person and that you really like. 
One thing will be eye-opening: you will find that there are women out there that will appreciate you and YOU WILL BE A DIFFERENT PERSON WITH. You will wonder if your wife was making you crazy, because you're such a different person with the new woman. Guess what, SHE WAS!
You will be SHOCKED when a person you date messes up in some way and says "I'm sorry" and you don't even have an argument over it.

I feel certain that you will start feeling better dating other women ( they will get your mind off CR). You are grown up enough to know when it's rebound and when it's the real thing. I dated a truly gorgeous Asian lady that was 11 years younger and thought I might really like her (rebound probably), but knew it wasn't right and eventually broke it off with her. She had some problems that made us incompatible.

Your wife is really going to screw her life up with this idiot she is dating. After the new wears off of him, and she doesn't have a man with a steady job to support her, she will really be in a bind. I hope everything works out. I know if you're having a date this weekend, you're feeling better. YOU DESERVE IT! HAve a good time and live your life doing the best you can to be a good dad and a happy, complete Grid.


----------



## gridcom

Evinrude58 said:


> Grid,
> POF in my area was full of women who were pretty damaged, or just wanted casual sex. Zoosk was pretty good, and all the women have tons to choose from. Most have the good sense to look for good quality guys, some just want sex, most are desperate for a stable man. I had my luck on Match.com for both of the ladies I really liked. The pay sites have a better range of people, I think. The last one I'm still dating and hoping to marry if it all works out.
> I got on those sites and it was very hard not to become a person who likes the attention and likes lots of it from different women. It can be addictive, actually, and it eventually will get you tired of dating. Hopefully, you will find one that is a good person and that you really like.
> One thing will be eye-opening: you will find that there are women out there that will appreciate you and YOU WILL BE A DIFFERENT PERSON WITH. You will wonder if your wife was making you crazy, because you're such a different person with the new woman. Guess what, SHE WAS!
> You will be SHOCKED when a person you date messes up in some way and says "I'm sorry" and you don't even have an argument over it.
> 
> I feel certain that you will start feeling better dating other women ( they will get your mind off CR). You are grown up enough to know when it's rebound and when it's the real thing. I dated a truly gorgeous Asian lady that was 11 years younger and thought I might really like her (rebound probably), but knew it wasn't right and eventually broke it off with her. She had some problems that made us incompatible.
> 
> Your wife is really going to screw her life up with this idiot she is dating. After the new wears off of him, and she doesn't have a man with a steady job to support her, she will really be in a bind. I hope everything works out. I know if you're having a date this weekend, you're feeling better. YOU DESERVE IT! HAve a good time and live your life doing the best you can to be a good dad and a happy, complete Grid.


Nice

Honestly, the problem is I am already tired of dating. It's a fairly insincere game from the get go, dating. It's revealing yourself in very small incriments and shading your negatives from the sunlight, both ways.

"You're cool, I think? Until your not."


----------



## Evinrude58

It won't be bad at all when you meet the right one. 
Don't think so negatively, Grid. 
Just be yourself. You're not 18 anymore, like me. I didn't try to hide much of anything except morning breath and loud farts.
They are not kids, either. Be yourself. That's the beauty of online dating. There's so many to choose from, you don't need to fake anything. If there's something about you they don't like and can't handle, move on to the next one. It took me several months to find a good one. I treasure the time I have with her. You will, too.


----------



## just got it 55

Grid you sound leveled off

Am I right ?

55


----------



## gridcom

just got it 55 said:


> Grid you sound leveled off
> 
> Am I right ?
> 
> 55


I am leveled off as long as Cougar doesn't engage me. Right now, we are amazingly in different orbits even though we share two homes (kinda)

When she engaged me about not paying the credit cards, I'll be honest my heart rate went up and it was like visiting a place that brought me much pain. I just wanted it to stop.


----------



## Evinrude58

You are paying the minimum on HER credit cards? Why? I'm sure there's a good reason. But shouldn't the coffee guy contribute since he's the one getting her?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## gridcom

Evinrude58 said:


> You are paying the minimum on HER credit cards? Why? I'm sure there's a good reason. But shouldn't the coffee guy contribute since he's the one getting her?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Money remains "status quo" until deal is final


----------



## turnera

gridcom said:


> Nice
> 
> Honestly, the problem is I am already tired of dating. It's a fairly insincere game from the get go, dating. It's revealing yourself in very small incriments and shading your negatives from the sunlight, both ways.
> 
> "You're cool, I think? Until your not."


That's why you should instead be spending your time volunteering - the really nice women do volunteer work - and joining groups for things you like to do or always wanted to learn how to do - the really nice women spend their time enjoying life instead of hunting down a mate.

That way, anyone you meet, it will happen slowly, naturally, and they won't be lying and putting on a front to impress you. Oh, and you won't have to do the uncomfortable dating stuff.


----------



## JohnA

Hi Grid,

How are you doing owning your issues? I sound like a broken record on the subject but at this point it is the single most important aspect of your personal life. It is very hard to separate sometimes what issues most women might have vs what your ex in particular might have but it needs doing. I want to to be clear owing your issues is so your NEXT relationship is a great one - not your last one. Does this make sense to you?


----------



## Acoa

gridcom said:


> Nice
> 
> Honestly, the problem is I am already tired of dating. It's a fairly insincere game from the get go, dating. It's revealing yourself in very small incriments and shading your negatives from the sunlight, both ways.
> 
> "You're cool, I think? Until your not."


It's okay not to date for a while, or at least not seriously. Be brutally honest in your online profile if you keep it up. Say you are not yet divorced, with kids and a demanding job. That you wouldn't mind someone to go out on an occasional date (2 or 3 times a month), and that you are not yet sure what your future holds.

That will scare off the husband hunters. You will get more than your fair share of crazies, so, learn to be discerning. And keep things at arms length (and double wrapped, lol). 

And don't do anything dumb like introduce your kids to a new GF. That needs to wait until you find someone you think you are ready to settle down with.


----------



## manfromlamancha

Grid, good to know that you are hanging in there. The dating will come naturally later on so don't worry about that too much. What is the situation between Captain Latte and your kids. Has your wife introduced him to the kids ? What is the agreement so far and what is it likely to be going forward ?


----------



## gridcom

manfromlamancha said:


> Grid, good to know that you are hanging in there.  The dating will come naturally later on so don't worry about that too much. What is the situation between Captain Latte and your kids. Has your wife introduced him to the kids ? What is the agreement so far and what is it likely to be going forward ?


Neither one of us can introduce a significant other to the kids until March 12, 2017.


----------



## just got it 55

turnera said:


> That's why you should instead be spending your time volunteering - the really nice women do volunteer work - and joining groups for things you like to do or always wanted to learn how to do - the really nice women spend their time enjoying life instead of hunting down a mate.
> 
> That way, anyone you meet, it will happen slowly, naturally, and they won't be lying and putting on a front to impress you. Oh, and you won't have to do the uncomfortable dating stuff.


T didn't Walloped's on SI WW meet her AP Volunteering?:surprise:

55


----------



## Evinrude58

just got it 55 said:


> T didn't Walloped's on SI WW meet her AP Volunteering?:surprise:
> 
> 55


Indeed, being a "volunteer" doesn't have any bearing on whether the volunteer will make a good relationship partner, although I do agree that a person who stays busy is likely a good sign a person has some character.
I'm sure lots of men and women "volunteer" just to meet people.
It's no different than lots of other ways of meeting people.
I'm sure there are people that volunteer just for the satisfaction of helping others, as I have. But everyone knows that's also a way of meeting people.
JUst sayin'


----------



## happyman64

Grid

Go easy on yourself. 

Dating can be fun if you let it.

And the fact that your daughters mental health weighs heavily on you just shows who you truly are.

A great Dad.

Wait till your oldest hits her teens...... :surprise:

Keep the focus on you and the kids. Once CR is out of your daily life your world will look and feel differently.

In a positive way.

HM


----------



## bandit.45

turnera said:


> That's why you should instead be spending your time volunteering - the really nice women do volunteer work - and joining groups for things you like to do or always wanted to learn how to do - the really nice women spend their time enjoying life instead of hunting down a mate.
> 
> That way, anyone you meet, it will happen slowly, naturally, and they won't be lying and putting on a front to impress you. Oh, and you won't have to do the uncomfortable dating stuff.


That's right. You'll befriend a nice lady at the Salvation Army thrift store, spend a few months working beside each other, getting to know one another, getting comfortable....

Then one day the store manager walks in the back room and there you two are buck naked in the clothes bin...books and old dolls flying everywhere.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Evinrude58 said:


> Indeed, being a "volunteer" doesn't have any bearing on whether the volunteer will make a good relationship partner, although I do agree that a person who stays busy is likely a good sign a person has some character.
> I'm sure lots of men and women "volunteer" just to meet people.
> It's no different than lots of other ways of meeting people.
> I'm sure there are people that volunteer just for the satisfaction of helping others, as I have. But everyone knows that's also a way of meeting people.
> JUst sayin'


Well, it's got a hell of a lot more chance of producing a decent partner than just picking someone up at a bar. At least IMHO.


----------



## JohnA

Hi Grid, 

Be on guard against your WW trying to "get even" with you. I wonder if part of her being with other boy is she knows it hurts you?

Stay focus on building a better you for the next woman in your life. Let indifference to her and a better life with your new wife be your revenge. 

Bye the way how did that hidden loan from her mom work out? Is that were she got the money fir a lawyer.


----------



## happy as a clam

turnera said:


> Well, it's got a hell of a lot more chance of producing a decent partner than just picking someone up at a bar. At least IMHO.


Agree.

Let's look at this closer...

Potential Date Scenario #1 - Bleach-blonde (no offense to blondes, I happen to be one myself!) bar-fly; 52 years old; fake nails, fake boobs, fake eyelashes; mini-skirt, tube top and jeans jacket; propped up on a bar stool with her go-go/thigh-high black "pleather" boots, slurping a fruity drink... 

Potential Date Scenario #2 - Cute, fit, single mom; 48 years old; nice neutral manicure; light makeup, all-natural look; volunteering at a soup kitchen or a Habitat for Humanity build; jeans, tank top with a hoodie and a jazzy little ball cap. Sipping on coffee or hot chocolate while she works her cute little butt off. Hammer, circular saw, drill... 

I wonder which one is more likely to be marriage material... 

Sorry if that seems like a stereotype, but I call 'em like I see 'em...


----------



## Lilac23

gridcom said:


> Nice
> 
> Honestly, the problem is I am already tired of dating. It's a fairly insincere game from the get go, dating. It's revealing yourself in very small incriments and shading your negatives from the sunlight, both ways.
> 
> "You're cool, I think? Until your not."


So be honest in your profile but not depressingly so. I bet your sense of humor is one of your best features so let that come across. My brother recently joined POF and looking for some fun, I read his profile. I have never read so many lies in two paragraphs in my life! He lied about completely meaningless, unnecessary things, like speaking spanish or playing the piano, wtf? Who cares about that stuff? It was like he took sentences that he thought a woman would want to hear and smashed them together, making a jumbled, incoherent stringing together of words that made no real sense. He's not stupid but he's also not as astute as he thinks he is. Be honest, but don't repeatedly say you are honest, it's a red flag that you're lying and trying to convince people that you're being truthful (he said honest twice).


----------



## Lilac23

gridcom said:


> Hi everybody-
> 
> Been a few weeks, so I figured I'd say hello. Things are reasonably calm with few bumps right now. We have the "nesting apartment" and are going back and forth while the kids stay in the house. Cougar Robinson is full on in love with the BF, staying at his place, dedicating songs to him on her favorite stations request hour. I still look, I cant help it.
> 
> We had an argument about her spending money on her BF, as I "kind of /sort of" intercepted her trying to purchase something for them to do and told her I wasn't going to pay the minimum's on her credit cards if she was going to use it for him. Common sense, right?


Why are you paying her credit card minimums at all? 



gridcom said:


> My kids are going to need therapy, I think. i am looking for one for them. I am concerned for both of them. They act normal 90% of the time, but then there are directly related meltdowns. For my 10 year old, she's going through, uh, changes so it's expected. My younger one doesn't understand why she is all alone between after school and when I am done working. The older one goes on her ipad and facetime and watches make up videos on YouTube. The younger one, I'm making sure she is in my office with me, at least so she isnt so alone.


I am confused by your job, if it's through the computer, cant you do it anytime of day? If you refi the house, when can you ditch the apartment? Can the kids join any sports or something a couple days a week? It's nice your in the home at the same time but if they have too much free time, they might start looking for things to fill that time and that could lead to issues. 



gridcom said:


> I want to thank everyone once again and I especially want to thank the one and only Cougar Robinson for this special gift that she brought into our lives.


The gift that keeps on giving!


----------



## Evinrude58

happy as a clam said:


> Agree.
> 
> Let's look at this closer...
> 
> Potential Date Scenario #1 - Bleach-blonde (no offense to blondes, I happen to be one myself!) bar-fly; 52 years old; fake nails, fake boobs, fake eyelashes; mini-skirt, tube top and jeans jacket; propped up on a bar stool with her go-go/thigh-high black "pleather" boots, slurping a fruity drink...
> 
> Potential Date Scenario #2 - Cute, fit, single mom; 48 years old; nice neutral manicure; light makeup, all-natural look; volunteering at a soup kitchen or a Habitat for Humanity build; jeans, tank top with a hoodie and a jazzy little ball cap. Sipping on coffee or hot chocolate while she works her cute little butt off. Hammer, circular saw, drill...
> 
> I wonder which one is more likely to be marriage material...
> 
> Sorry if that seems like a stereotype, but I call 'em like I see 'em...


So who suggested he look for women at a bar?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Evinrude58 said:


> So who suggested he look for women at a bar?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It was my response to the comment that volunteers can be bad potential partners.


----------



## LongWalk

Bars are generally a bad place to meet potential partners. After all the whole premise is that drink dissolves inhibitions and judgment.

Volunteering may or may not be good.

The best place is to meet is where interaction revolves around something else and allows people to see the character of the person in a variety of circumstances.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

It's just dating.

Who says Grid is looking for wife #2? Or even a LTR?

Who cares where, and how, he meets his dates? 

Date many women, Grid, before you decide when, if ever, you want to settle down again.


----------



## gridcom

Ok, went on a 2nd date with this girl from POF. She's awesome. Quiet and pretty like Adrianne from Rocky, can hold a conversation, is an occupational therapist, also an entrepreneur. Trying to launch a coffee drink, buys and sells property.... Travels abroad alone, can do sheet rock and home repairs. Drinks one beer and is semi crocked. Own's her own home. I think she's great.

I have to go to New Orleans the weekend after this one (for Jazz Fest) and she's coming with me. 

The ONLY problem with her is that she is the first person I'm dating after this huge mess (and judging by the fact that this is comment #4784, it was a huge mess). My sister says it's like buying the first house you see. I'm asking myself "Am I crazy?" because I'd be the guy telling my friend to "ease up, pal"
Yet, I think about it from a different level and I think "Why the f6ck not?"

Meanwhile, I exchange texts with Cougar. Very generic, no editorializing, just matter of fact. You can call it "the 180", I call it "Dang, it took me 180 days"...... Yesterday's text goes something like this...
*Backstory, Cougar had the flu in early Feb. I guess it was real bad. She ended up in the hospital. I came home yesterday to see our insurance paid the hospital bill ($2200), but the way the insurance works is they pay the first $2500 and then we pay the next $2500 and then they pay anything over that. So, that means the next $2500 that we use, we pay for

ME: "Wow, $2200 for the flu? Good grief"
COUGAR: " Now you are going to give me sh^t about that, too?"
ME: "No, I'm just saying that's a lot of money for the flu. It's not your fault"
COUGAR: "I almost died. You probably would have loved that
ME: (no response)

Anyway, there's a nice distraction happening.


----------



## MattMatt

happy as a clam said:


> Agree.
> 
> Let's look at this closer...
> 
> Potential Date Scenario #1 - Bleach-blonde (no offense to blondes, I happen to be one myself!) bar-fly; 52 years old; fake nails, fake boobs, fake eyelashes; mini-skirt, tube top and jeans jacket; propped up on a bar stool with her go-go/thigh-high black "pleather" boots, slurping a fruity drink...
> 
> Potential Date Scenario #2 - Cute, fit, single mom; 48 years old; nice neutral manicure; light makeup, all-natural look; volunteering at a soup kitchen or a Habitat for Humanity build; jeans, tank top with a hoodie and a jazzy little ball cap. Sipping on coffee or hot chocolate while she works her cute little butt off. Hammer, circular saw, drill...
> 
> I wonder which one is more likely to be marriage material...
> 
> Sorry if that seems like a stereotype, but I call 'em like I see 'em...


Csn I pick the one wearing a miniskirt and the boots, please?

Oh. Sorry!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> You can call it "the 180", I call it "Dang, it took me 180 days"......


Bahaaa! This made me laugh.


----------



## Acoa

gridcom said:


> The ONLY problem with her is that she is the first person I'm dating after this huge mess (and judging by the fact that this is comment #4784, it was a huge mess). My sister says it's like buying the first house you see. I'm asking myself "Am I crazy?" because I'd be the guy telling my friend to "ease up, pal"
> Yet, I think about it from a different level and I think "Why the f6ck not?"


If you are both enjoying it, then go ahead and date her seriously. Just don't propose marriage or move in. Be clear that you like her, but are not going to rush anything. 

In my opinion, exclusivity is fine (even desirable if you are sexually active with her). Just don't promise forever. If she is in a rush to get married, or pressures you in that direction, then move on.


----------



## gridcom

Acoa said:


> If you are both enjoying it, then go ahead and date her seriously. Just don't propose marriage or move in. Be clear that you like her, but are not going to rush anything.
> 
> In my opinion, exclusivity is fine (even desirable if you are sexually active with her). Just don't promise forever. If she is in a rush to get married, or pressures you in that direction, then move on.


Perfect and agreed.


----------



## 225985

gridcom said:


> I have to go to New Orleans the weekend after this one (for Jazz Fest) and she's coming with me.


You can visit the French Quarter and Bourbon Street, but one of the more fun and romantic things to do is a nighttime ghost tour. It's an ideal thing to do with someone you just started dating. A swamp tour is good too. The weather is awesome here right now.

ETA: If you get a chance to visit Jackson Square, have one of these street artists sketch a caricature of you both. Then give it to her.


----------



## bandit.45

gridcom said:


> ...can do sheet rock and home repairs.


:surprise: WHOA!

She's a keeper man!


----------



## bandit.45

gridcom said:


> ME: "Wow, $2200 for the flu? Good grief"
> COUGAR: " Now you are going to give me sh^t about that, too?"
> ME: "No, I'm just saying that's a lot of money for the flu. It's not your fault"
> COUGAR: *"I almost died. You probably would have loved that*
> ME: (no response)
> 
> Anyway, there's a nice distraction happening.


Oh isn't she just Little Miss Put-Apon....


----------



## eric1

Grid don't even engage her about stuff like the flu. This is why lawyers exist.


----------



## LongWalk

Good luck with the house. That's the key.

Cougar is a lost soul. She'll not give up seeking emotional support for a long time. 

Within 18 months she'll probably want to complain about Captain Cappuccino to you.


----------



## just got it 55

Grid Just have fun No More No Less

55


----------



## Marc878

gridcom said:


> ME: "Wow, $2200 for the flu? Good grief"
> COUGAR: " Now you are going to give me sh^t about that, too?"
> ME: "No, I'm just saying that's a lot of money for the flu. It's not your fault"
> COUGAR: "I almost died. You probably would have loved that
> ME: (no response)


Damn!!! She's a Cougar just take to a cheap vet. 

They shoot horses don't they.


----------



## syhoybenden

She should be more careful about what she puts in her mouth.


----------



## manfromlamancha

Marc878 said:


> Damn!!! She's a Cougar just take to a cheap vet.
> 
> They shoot horses don't they.


Horses, yes. But Cougars are a protected species it seems! :smile2:


----------



## Pluto2

I'm absolutely no fan of TS, she lied and betrayed Grid, and hopefully she will see one day what she lost (doubtful but it could happen). 

Could we ease up on the constant references to animals.


----------



## Divinely Favored

The ONLY problem with her is that she is the first person I'm dating after this huge mess (and judging by the fact that this is comment #4784, it was a huge mess). My sister says it's like buying the first house you see. I'm asking myself "Am I crazy?" 

I went with my wife to her divorce court. We will be married 19yrs in may. I did have to outlast her dis trust in men. Now she says I'm the only person she does trust.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Divinely Favored said:


> Now she says I'm the only person she does trust.


Wow, that's kind of... sad


----------



## gridcom

Talk about getting slapped back down to reality


----------



## Ms. GP

(((Hugs)))


----------



## bandit.45

Aw man.....


----------



## farsidejunky

Wow, brother. So sorry...

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## 3putt

Oh my. 

Simply heartbreaking.


----------



## bfree

Oh boy. That's truly heartwrenching.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

This is why people point out how perceptive children really are in life. It's telling how mommy has happy hearts and dad is crying with a broken one. 

Sorry brother.


----------



## tech-novelist

happy as a clam said:


> Agree.
> 
> Let's look at this closer...
> 
> Potential Date Scenario #1 - Bleach-blonde (no offense to blondes, I happen to be one myself!) bar-fly; 52 years old; fake nails, fake boobs, fake eyelashes; mini-skirt, tube top and jeans jacket; propped up on a bar stool with her go-go/thigh-high black "pleather" boots, slurping a fruity drink...
> 
> Potential Date Scenario #2 - Cute, fit, single mom; 48 years old; nice neutral manicure; light makeup, all-natural look; volunteering at a soup kitchen or a Habitat for Humanity build; jeans, tank top with a hoodie and a jazzy little ball cap. Sipping on coffee or hot chocolate while she works her cute little butt off. Hammer, circular saw, drill...
> 
> I wonder which one is more likely to be marriage material...
> 
> Sorry if that seems like a stereotype, but I call 'em like I see 'em...


It depends on why #2 is a single mom...


----------



## tech-novelist

gridcom said:


> Ok, went on a 2nd date with this girl from POF. She's awesome. Quiet and pretty like Adrianne from Rocky, can hold a conversation, is an occupational therapist, also an entrepreneur. Trying to launch a coffee drink, buys and sells property.... Travels abroad alone, can do sheet rock and home repairs. Drinks one beer and is semi crocked. Own's her own home. I think she's great.
> 
> I have to go to New Orleans the weekend after this one (for Jazz Fest) and she's coming with me.
> 
> The ONLY problem with her is that she is the first person I'm dating after this huge mess (and judging by the fact that this is comment #4784, it was a huge mess). My sister says it's like buying the first house you see. I'm asking myself "Am I crazy?" because I'd be the guy telling my friend to "ease up, pal"
> Yet, I think about it from a different level and I think "Why the f6ck not?"
> 
> Meanwhile, I exchange texts with Cougar. Very generic, no editorializing, just matter of fact. You can call it "the 180", I call it "Dang, it took me 180 days"...... Yesterday's text goes something like this...
> *Backstory, Cougar had the flu in early Feb. I guess it was real bad. She ended up in the hospital. I came home yesterday to see our insurance paid the hospital bill ($2200), but the way the insurance works is they pay the first $2500 and then we pay the next $2500 and then they pay anything over that. So, that means the next $2500 that we use, we pay for
> 
> ME: "Wow, $2200 for the flu? Good grief"
> COUGAR: " Now you are going to give me sh^t about that, too?"
> ME: "No, I'm just saying that's a lot of money for the flu. It's not your fault"
> COUGAR: "I almost died. You probably would have loved that
> ME: (no response)
> 
> Anyway, there's a nice distraction happening.


I assume you have an "affordable care act" policy? Ugh.


----------



## Tron

Soul crushing Grid. Sorry.


----------



## GusPolinski

gridcom said:


> Meanwhile, I exchange texts with Cougar. Very generic, no editorializing, just matter of fact. You can call it "the 180", I call it "Dang, it took me 180 days"...... Yesterday's text goes something like this...
> *Backstory, Cougar had the flu in early Feb. I guess it was real bad. She ended up in the hospital. I came home yesterday to see our insurance paid the hospital bill ($2200), but the way the insurance works is they pay the first $2500 and then we pay the next $2500 and then they pay anything over that. So, that means the next $2500 that we use, we pay for
> 
> ME: "Wow, $2200 for the flu? Good grief"
> COUGAR: " Now you are going to give me sh^t about that, too?"
> ME: "No, I'm just saying that's a lot of money for the flu. It's not your fault"
> *COUGAR: "I almost died. You probably would have loved that*
> ME: (no response)
> 
> Anyway, there's a nice distraction happening.


"Not really. That would've been way more expensive."

:lol: :rofl:


----------



## turnera

Divinely Favored said:


> The ONLY problem with her is that she is the first person I'm dating after this huge mess (and judging by the fact that this is comment #4784, it was a huge mess). My sister says it's like buying the first house you see. I'm asking myself "Am I crazy?"


THIS!

Tell your sister that she's a genius. And I am going to USE this in the future. It's perfect. WHY would you buy the first house you see?


----------



## turnera

gridcom said:


> Talk about getting slapped back down to reality


Uh...how often DO you cry in front of your kids?


----------



## gridcom

phillybeffandswiss said:


> This is why people point out how perceptive children really are in life. It's telling how mommy has happy hearts and dad is crying with a broken one.
> 
> Sorry brother.


I'm not really sure how to process that picture. There seems to be a lot to digest there. She drew the picture and wanted to show me it, but she didn't treat it like a heavy moment. She showed me because she was impressed with what she'd created, more than trying to tell me something.

I guess I have cried in front of them a few times, and obviously it's not something she's ever going to forget and now would be the time to once again thank Cougar Robinson for this awesome gift she's brought into our lives. A 10 bell salute for such good fortune.

- - - - - - - - - -

However, let me tell you that sweet lady coming with me to New Orleans rules the school in every which way, and my daughter seeing me crying is long, long in the past. For the past three weeks, a genuine smile has emerged and a genuine spring in my step. And regardless or not if this relationship has any distance to it, what's really important is that it's the proof I needed that the sun was still shining somewhere for me and I don't have to look very hard to find it.

Right now, it's decision time on keeping the house and buying her out or selling the house and starting over.

Keeping the house would mean only Cougar's 1/2 of the marital debt gets paid, mine remains until I can pay it off in Dec (hopefully) and the refinance means my mortgage goes to about $2450 per month and the kids get to stay in their house.

Selling it means, all the debt gets paid, rents around here for a solid two bedroom apartment (the kids would share) are about $1850-$2200 for anything nice.

So, basically I can end up in decent financial shape if I sell, and I'm going to be struggling to keep above water if I keep it. 

I'm leaning towards selling it but I feel like I'm being very selfish and not putting the kids first there.


----------



## Archangel2

gridcom said:


> Talk about getting slapped back down to reality


Grid- In post 4752 I wrote the following:

I took my wife for granted
She fell in love with another man
I MADE A GOOD FAITH EFFORT TO FIX OUR PROBLEMS THROUGH COUNSELING AND RETROUVAILLE
I NEED TO ACCEPT THIS OUTCOME AND REALIZE I FOUGHT THE GOOD FIGHT
I HAVE THE TOOLS TO BECOME A GREAT SPOUSE TO THE NEXT MRS GRID



I guess I need to re-edit to say:



I took my wife for granted
She fell in love with another man
I MADE A GOOD FAITH EFFORT TO FIX OUR PROBLEMS THROUGH COUNSELING AND RETROUVAILLE
I NEED TO ACCEPT THIS OUTCOME AND REALIZE I FOUGHT THE GOOD FIGHT
I HAVE THE TOOLS TO BECOME A GREAT SPOUSE TO THE NEXT MRS GRID
BY HAVING A SUCCESSFUL NEW BEGINNING I CAN SHOW MY KIDS HOW TO HAVE A HAPPY AND FULFILLING LIFE

Peace and strength my friend


----------



## just got it 55

gridcom said:


> I'm not really sure how to process that picture. There seems to be a lot to digest there. She drew the picture and wanted to show me it, but she didn't treat it like a heavy moment. She showed me because she was impressed with what she'd created, more than trying to tell me something.
> 
> I guess I have cried in front of them a few times, and obviously it's not something she's ever going to forget and now would be the time to once again thank Cougar Robinson for this awesome gift she's brought into our lives. A 10 bell salute for such good fortune.
> 
> - - - - - - - - - -
> 
> However, let me tell you that sweet lady coming with me to New Orleans rules the school in every which way, and my daughter seeing me crying is long, long in the past. For the past three weeks, a genuine smile has emerged and a genuine spring in my step. And regardless or not if this relationship has any distance to it, what's really important is that it's the proof I needed that the sun was still shining somewhere for me and I don't have to look very hard to find it.
> 
> Right now, it's decision time on keeping the house and buying her out or selling the house and starting over.
> 
> Keeping the house would mean only Cougar's 1/2 of the marital debt gets paid, mine remains until I can pay it off in Dec (hopefully) and the refinance means my mortgage goes to about $2450 per month and the kids get to stay in their house.
> 
> Selling it means, all the debt gets paid, rents around here for a solid two bedroom apartment (the kids would share) are about $1850-$2200 for anything nice.
> 
> So, basically I can end up in decent financial shape if I sell, and I'm going to be struggling to keep above water if I keep it.
> 
> I'm leaning towards selling it but I feel like I'm being very selfish and not putting the kids first there.


Grid when you do the math...and I don't mean arithmetic it will add up to whats best for your girls long term.

And the crying thing don't sweet it man you're human

55


----------



## TX-SC

gridcom said:


> I'm not really sure how to process that picture. There seems to be a lot to digest there. She drew the picture and wanted to show me it, but she didn't treat it like a heavy moment. She showed me because she was impressed with what she'd created, more than trying to tell me something.
> 
> I guess I have cried in front of them a few times, and obviously it's not something she's ever going to forget and now would be the time to once again thank Cougar Robinson for this awesome gift she's brought into our lives. A 10 bell salute for such good fortune.
> 
> - - - - - - - - - -
> 
> However, let me tell you that sweet lady coming with me to New Orleans rules the school in every which way, and my daughter seeing me crying is long, long in the past. For the past three weeks, a genuine smile has emerged and a genuine spring in my step. And regardless or not if this relationship has any distance to it, what's really important is that it's the proof I needed that the sun was still shining somewhere for me and I don't have to look very hard to find it.
> 
> Right now, it's decision time on keeping the house and buying her out or selling the house and starting over.
> 
> Keeping the house would mean only Cougar's 1/2 of the marital debt gets paid, mine remains until I can pay it off in Dec (hopefully) and the refinance means my mortgage goes to about $2450 per month and the kids get to stay in their house.
> 
> Selling it means, all the debt gets paid, rents around here for a solid two bedroom apartment (the kids would share) are about $1850-$2200 for anything nice.
> 
> So, basically I can end up in decent financial shape if I sell, and I'm going to be struggling to keep above water if I keep it.
> 
> I'm leaning towards selling it but I feel like I'm being very selfish and not putting the kids first there.


Unless your home has a pool, they may actually enjoy a nice apartment for a while. Plus, it's a whole lot less upkeep. I'd sell, live in an apartment long enough to get back on your feet, then look at buying another house.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Low stress and no debt is ALWAYS better for everyone. If you are paying more and working more to catch up, who loses? Your kids. This means you are putting your kids first.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Apply the oxygen mask first, then put it on your children.

Your kids need a emotionally and financially strong dad.

The roof over their head, while it appears to be important, is really only a comfort. Any roof where you can be together and happy us "home".


----------



## Evinrude58

Glad you had fun in New Orleans with your friend. That being able to see a little sunshine gives one the strength and motivation to get things done, get things moving, and get in an overall better frame of mind.
I've read that in divorces, the man is usually the most devastated and the woman not as much, but within a couple of years, the man is in a much better place and much happier in the long run. I believe that will be true in my case and yours.

I saw my ex at work today. She's been married about 3 weeks, and just cut her hair and if she hadn't had her tubes tied, I'd think she might be pregnant. Blowing up like a balloon now that her check is in the bank so to speak. She hates being big. Will be unhappy soon and blame him (probably me, actually). Along with the chronic unhappiness will come her spending sprees. He'll love those.
Anyway, enough of my own whining. 

You will be happy again, and likely wonder why you didn't realize just how bad things were with your own personal narcissist before.

Keep moving!


----------



## gridcom

Evinrude58 said:


> Glad you had fun in New Orleans with your friend. That being able to see a little sunshine gives one the strength and motivation to get things done, get things moving, and get in an overall better frame of mind.
> I've read that in divorces, the man is usually the most devastated and the woman not as much, but within a couple of years, the man is in a much better place and much happier in the long run. I believe that will be true in my case and yours.
> 
> I saw my ex at work today. She's been married about 3 weeks, and just cut her hair and if she hadn't had her tubes tied, I'd think she might be pregnant. Blowing up like a balloon now that her check is in the bank so to speak. She hates being big. Will be unhappy soon and blame him (probably me, actually). Along with the chronic unhappiness will come her spending sprees. He'll love those.
> Anyway, enough of my own whining.
> 
> You will be happy again, and likely wonder why you didn't realize just how bad things were with your own personal narcissist before.
> 
> Keep moving!


Nice. And our New Orleans trip is actually this weekend. We've been going out once or twice a week for three weeks and it's been really excellent.


----------



## bandit.45

gridcom said:


> Nice. And our New Orleans trip is actually this weekend. We've been going out once or twice a week for three weeks and it's been really excellent.


Stay off Bourbon Street at night. It has gone to hell in a handbag since the hurricane. It's all dope hustlers and hos now. Stick to the streets south of Bourbon. Jackson Square is still a good area as well as the French Market.

Ride the streetcar from Canal street west to the garden District. Lots of beautiful 19th century homes. And if you have a chance, go see the World War II Museum....fantastic.


----------



## Chuck71

Evinrude58 said:


> I saw my ex at work today. She's been married about 3 weeks, and just cut her hair and if she hadn't had her tubes tied, I'd think she might be pregnant. Blowing up like a balloon now that her check is in the bank so to speak. She hates being big. Will be unhappy soon and blame him (probably me, actually). Along with the chronic unhappiness will come her spending sprees. He'll love those.


You mean something like this......

https://www.google.com/search?q=mem...hVDRiYKHYGAAvMQ_AUIBigB#imgrc=kr9b7f00PwkKbM:


----------



## LongWalk

Evinrude is right on.


----------



## Divinely Favored

TheTruthHurts said:


> Divinely Favored said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now she says I'm the only person she does trust.
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, that's kind of... sad
Click to expand...

Yes it is.....she had been screwed over by ALOT of family. CSA by violent father who committed suicide when she was teen, mother did not protect her. She would intervene when Dad would turn on little brothers. Married at 16 to escape. He was a serial cheater. Other than me only man she trusted was her Paw and he died a couple months after we met. 

She is a very loyal person and if you wrong her kids or me its on and then she is done with that person. Its over. No more. never again.


----------



## 225985

bandit.45 said:


> Stay off Bourbon Street at night. It has gone to hell in a handbag since the hurricane. It's all dope hustlers and hos now. Stick to the streets south of Bourbon. Jackson Square is still a good area as well as the French Market.
> 
> Ride the streetcar from Canal street west to the garden District. Lots of beautiful 19th century homes. And if you have a chance, go see the World War II Museum....fantastic.


Good recommendations. @bandit.45 is right. The museum is awesome. Some other things to do: The Aquarium of the Americas, shopping at the Riverwalk, an absolute must is beignets (with lots of powdered sugar) and coffee at Cafe du Monde,

Get your fortune told by the street artists in Jackson Square. It's off Bourbon, but in the day or evening the patio or piano bars at Pat O'Brien's is great. Watch out for the Hurricane drinks. They drink easy but the alcohol will hit you really hard later. 

And don't forget about taking a nighttime ghost tour. She will love it.


----------



## gridcom

NOLA weekend was one of the best weekends of my life. Without question. 


This can be a very long post. It sounds so crazy but here it goes. I sign up to a dating site. First woman I go out with is tremendous. Who is this woman? We meet for dinner. We hit it off. I want to learn more. I take her out the next weekend, bring her to a show to see on of my bands. Did you ever see Goodfella's when Henry Hill takes Dr. Melfi (see what I did there?) to the Copa, and they go through the kitchen and everyone is waiting on him hand and foot? That was date #2.

On the ride home. "I have to go to New Orleans in two weeks" ..... "Oh, I'd love to see New Orleans, I've never been"..... "You should come." ...... "I'd love to go to New Orleans with you if you are serious"...... "Sure, we'll have great time."

Nest day, she asks me what flight I am on and promptly buys her own ticket.... She says on the phone "Are we being impulsive?" ...... "Yep." ...... "Are you concerned?" ...... "The only part of me that's worried is the part that is a big pu$$y." ...... "Ok, lets go."

Two more dates before we left. Both great. Off to NOLA. Best weekend ever. Seriously, if I was religious I'd be convinced God sent this woman to me. That this was "His plan" all along. What a joker, that God. NOLA: stayed at the Sheraton on Canal, 26th Floor. Great view of the city. Did drink Hurricanes within 5 minutes of hitting the streets, they did hit me like a hammer @blueinbr . We went to a bunch of shows. Some of the musicians I represent sat in with the Red Hot Chili Peppers to end Jazz Fest. We got wisked around backstage on Golf Carts (more Copacabana Goodfella's moments). Went to Jackson Square. Got our cards read by some completely doped out woman. She got me all wrong. That's ok. Missed the Ghost tours. Played the whole weekend by ear more or less.

Ok, so now for some real talk. I NEVER was affectionate with Cougar Robinson as I am with this woman. Not when we first started dating, not on our wedding day, not ever. I held this woman's hand more on Saturday alone than I did Cougar's hand in 20 years of being together. Kind of bittersweet honestly. If Cougar was getting this kind of affection from her co-worker, I hate to say it but I can understand how it could be just intoxicating and undeniable.

Ok, about this paragraph above. I think in my hundreds of posts, I think I mentioned this before. When me and Cougar got together, it was a Beauty & The Beast kind of thing. She was hottttt and I, not so much. i was funny and I had (have) a big personality and I can be a force of nature. That's what Cougar was into, not me physically. In the early days, she resisted sex and it was often a source of tension. We even had a conversation very early on about it and she admitted that she was struggling with the physical me. And over time, it evened itself out. But, I think this weekend I discovered that maybe it didn't even itself out. I was always reluctant to reach out and hold her, or kiss her because I think in the back of my mind, I was an ogre and she didn't want that kind of physicality. When we had sex, even when I lost all my weight, I always kept my shirt on. ALWAYS. We only kissed while in bed. Our kids never saw us kiss. I just thought that was the way we were, but it was still love. This weekend, not only was I affectionate, I was affectionate in front of friends and peers without fear, or feeling awkward or any hesitation. Kisses were long and deep. Hugs were tight. We spent all night in bed and when we weren't rolling around, we were just whispering and being close. My shirt was off the whole time. 

Did I marry the wrong person? 

Not that this new woman is the right person, it's much too soon to say. But, seriously, this whole thing about affection, I always thought that I was just emotionally "f^cked up" and it turns out, I want to hug and kiss and say "Darling" and "Honey" just like every other man out there, and mean it.

We haven't defined our relationship yet and I'm not sure we need to. I am going to her house this weekend where some of her family will be and it's zero percent scary and one hundred percent alright by me.

Final mediation with Cougar this Friday. Decided to sell the house. Time to pack, decide what in the house gets tossed in the trash, what gets sold at a yard sale, etc. SHE'S STALLING. We have bulk pick up this coming Monday (been scheduled for two weeks now) and she tells me today to postpone because she's been real busy and hasn't had time. I think she just likes the current arrangement, where we still have the house, I still pay the bills, and she goes to her boys house a few nights a week and does her thing. 

I, on the other hand, clearly want my own place. I own a home, I rent a home, but if I want to roll around with this new woman (needs a nickname-lets call her PHOENIX because she clearly came out of the sky like a...) I'd either have to go to her place (where her 12 year old son lives) OR get a hotel room. TOTAL BULLCRAP! Criminal.


----------



## gridcom

[EMAIL="[/EMAIL]


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Oh, interesting. You unwittingly added an ENTIRELY new wrinkle and addendum to your history. This post is more important than the blame you heaped on yourself with your anger issues. You had issues right out of the box with attraction and sex. So, she wasn't physically attracted to you, denied you sex on this premise and when you talked it out she actually voiced this opinion to you. Not excusing your anger issues, but holy crap does this explain them.


----------



## Marc878

Pretty girl.


----------



## GuyInColorado

I know what you're feeling grid. I was only married 8 years before splitting. I've been dating a girl for the past 3 months and I've never felt this way before about any girl. I just hope this feeling can last forever. We both want it to never go away. Not sure what the trick is, maybe never move in together? lol


----------



## Evinrude58

Geez grid,
Your last post says it all....

1) awesome that you've figured out your cheating old lady is not the only one in the world that can make you happy.

2) it doesn't take a rocket scientist to tell you that you obviously married the wrong person.

3). You look happy and the girl is pretty.

4). Wishing I could high five you!

Very happy for you. I'm thinking you've just reached a milestone in the healing process. Your ex just had herself totally bulldozed off the pedestal. You now can see a positive outlook on the future without her. Let the healing begin!
I foresee you getting over her and being happier than ever, whether it be with this new girl, or another, or just you and your children. 

Happy for you!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## JohnA

Whoa, there were good reasons to stay in the house, but also the reality of if you could afford it. Have you crunched the numbers? I get your need for privacy. But at some point your daughters will be forced to spend time with their mom at her place. Your GF what are is the custody arrangement with son's father?


----------



## manfromlamancha

Pretty girl Gridcom! And you do look happy. As others have said you explained a lot more in that one post than in this whole thread! Do you have a pic of Cougar for comparison ? If you have one of the two of you together body language could explain a lot. This girl is into you - no doubt about that.


----------



## farsidejunky

Grid, some people are just...different when it comes to affection. I have zero interest in a relationship without it. Glad you discovered that, brother.

As to the part about TS voicing her lack of attraction...what a different spin that puts on your entire story.

At this point, I would not postpone anything for TS. She has had adequate time. Don't be surprised if she tries to "nice" you into delaying.

Keep having fun with your new girl, Grid. Keep spending time with your little girls. Life is painful, but it is sweet, too.

See the quote by Mavash. in my signature. That sums it all up nicely.



Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## lifeistooshort

Grid, your last post made me sad for both of you. You guys both made a common mistake....you married a woman that wasn't that into you because she was hot and you wanted to have sex with her, and she married a guy she wasn't that into for other reasons. A lot of men don't understand this but women are often raised to consider other things beyond attraction; this likely had practical purposes when women couldn't support themselves.

But it becomes a big deal and you can't create attraction where it doesn't exist.

This must have been a lonely marriage for both of you.....I know you said you didn't require the same kind of connection as the ex but maybe you actually do need/want more than you realize and just got used to not having it with her. Maybe that even contributed to a lot of your anger and subsequent bullying.....it's harder to be nasty to and stay made at someone you have a close connection with. You guys didn't have that so it amplified your fights. You probably secretly resented each other over this.

She wasn't into you physically and your natural and understandable response was to pull affection, so it was a nasty cycle. It's no wonder you guys weren't close.

My father used to say that everyone should experience a really close relationship at least once in their lives, and he knew I didn't have that with my first husband. Honestly he was unhappy with the age difference that I have with my current husband, but when we flew out to spend some time with him before he died he changed his mind and admitted he was wrong about us. He rarely admitted he was wrong about anything, but I think in this case when he saw us he realized that we had this close relationship he was talking about. We're on the opposite end of the country as my father and as we were together a long time before we married we only got married a year before he passed away, so it was after we married and my dad was very sick that we all went out there (us and my two boys).

Maybe your wife did the right thing by ending this. Not in the way she did it, that was crappy, but given the connection you guys lacked it's not really surprising that she would connect with someone else. It's surprising to me that it never happened to you, especially given your industry; you must have met a lot of women over the years. You just didn't realize you needed or wanted this connection so you settled for what you had. It's unfortunate for her that she connected with someone of the caliber she did, but in the greater scheme of things he probably won't last anyway.

You're not an ogre, you look like a normal guy.

Another thing my father used to say was that there's no better turn on than knowing someone really wants you. More men need to look beyond how much they want to have sex with someone to how much she's really into them, and more women need to consider how physically they're into a guy before they settle with him. That's not all there is of course but when it's not there it's huge.


----------



## gridcom

lifeistooshort said:


> Grid, your last post made me sad for both of you. You guys both made a common mistake....you married a woman that wasn't that into you because she was hot and you wanted to have sex with her, and she married a guy she wasn't that into for other reasons. A lot of men don't understand this but women are often raised to consider other things beyond attraction; this likely had practical purposes when women couldn't support themselves.
> 
> But it becomes a big deal and you can't create attraction where it doesn't exist.
> 
> This must have been a lonely marriage for both of you.....I know you said you didn't require the same kind of connection as the ex but maybe you actually do need/want more than you realize and just got used to not having it with her. Maybe that even contributed to a lot of your anger and subsequent bullying.....it's harder to be nasty to and stay made at someone you have a close connection with. You guys didn't have that so it amplified your fights. You probably secretly resented each other over this.
> 
> She wasn't into you physically and your natural and understandable response was to pull affection, so it was a nasty cycle. It's no wonder you guys weren't close.
> 
> My father used to say that everyone should experience a really close relationship at least once in their lives, and he knew I didn't have that with my first husband. Honestly he was unhappy with the age difference that I have with my current husband, but when we flew out to spend some time with him before he died he changed his mind and admitted he was wrong about us. He rarely admitted he was wrong about anything, but I think in this case when he saw us he realized that we had this close relationship he was talking about. We're on the opposite end of the country as my father and as we were together a long time before we married we only got married a year before he passed away, so it was after we married and my dad was very sick that we all went out there (us and my two boys).
> 
> Maybe your wife did the right thing by ending this. Not in the way she did it, that was crappy, but given the connection you guys lacked it's not really surprising that she would connect with someone else. It's surprising to me that it never happened to you, especially given your industry; you must have met a lot of women over the years. You just didn't realize you needed or wanted this connection so you settled for what you had. It's unfortunate for her that she connected with someone of the caliber she did, but in the greater scheme of things he probably won't last anyway.
> 
> You're not an ogre, you look like a normal guy.
> 
> Another thing my father used to say was that there's no better turn on than knowing someone really wants you. More men need to look beyond how much they want to have sex with someone to how much she's really into them, and more women need to consider how physically they're into a guy before they settle with him. That's not all there is of course but when it's not there it's huge.


Good stuff. I should clarify that as my marriage went on the physical attraction thing evened out. I lost a lot of weight (gained some back) and also became successful and I started carrying myself better and displaying confidence. The physical imbalance was really at the beginning only and, of course, we lasted 20 years. But, absolutely no question those early seeds of physical disconnect lasted the entire time. I have no doubt about it (now). It would have been awkward to suddenly wake up one day and just start hugging and smooching. It's clear we got off on the wrong foot. And even though Cougar would say she eventually did find me attractive, that early denial loomed large in my psyche. Also, worth nothing, her current guy is a big ogre who looks like me (10 years ago)

I honestly thought, all this time, I was just an emotional misfit. 

Life is strange


----------



## gridcom

Cougar (for reference)


----------



## ButtPunch

Evinrude58 said:


> 4). Wishing I could high five you!
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Me too.

See Grid things always have a way of working out.


----------



## manfromlamancha

Gridcom, Cougar is not bad looking - kind of cheeky but your new gal has the look of love on her and that makes her infinitely more beautiful! You have now found someone who not only is beautiful on the outside but beautiful on the inside too!

If Cougar's mummy boy is an ogre, then you have definitely got the better deal here.

Well done, stay strong and true and (as you are currently doing) keep going from strength to strength. This gal could well be the making of the real Gridcom!


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

JohnA said:


> Whoa, there were good reasons to stay in the house, but also the reality of if you could afford it. Have you crunched the numbers? I get your need for privacy. But at some point your daughters will be forced to spend time with their mom at her place. Your GF what are is the custody arrangement with son's father?


Convenience is rarely a good reason. We've read the same thread, he's been miserable and it took a few dates to realize the reality of his crappy situation.


----------



## Openminded

Your new girl is hotter. Much hotter.


----------



## Truthseeker1

I'd say the STBXW is fine but your new girl is just as pretty...and she digs you......remember at the end of all of this - your ex has to live with her sorry self...that will be punishment enough..and she has set an awful example for her children..just awful...


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Drat, I missed the pic of the new woman!


----------



## GuyInColorado

3Xnocharm said:


> Drat, I missed the pic of the new woman!


Post 4829, on other page. Still there!


----------



## eric1

I don't see what it matters who looks better than who, what matters is you seem to be a happy motherfaaaaagger and that's 1. Awesome 2. All that matters and 3. Well-deserves


----------



## Marduk

I'm proud of you man. So far, so fast.

Keep going. Take risks. Don't look back.


----------



## Evinrude58




----------



## Evinrude58

I'm a-likin' this thread.....

I like to see a betrayed spouse survive such a traumatic event and come out of it a stronger, happier, more self-aware person, while the adulterous spouse gets run over by the karma bus from Hades.
I believe that is happening before our very eyes.

Kudos on the new girl, Grid.


----------



## Borntohang

Grid! That picture makes me smile!! Happy for you


----------



## just got it 55

Good for you Grid Take your time Have fun always

Your new perspective will get yourself healed much quicker and deeper.

55


----------



## TeddieG

They're both pretty women. But I think the new woman is softer, kindler, gentler around the edges, or maybe she's just comfortable in your arms. She just looks like a sweet person. And I know appearances can be deceptive, but . . .


----------



## TX-SC

This isn't a popularity contest, but I'd take the new one over the old one any day. She's pretty and also into you. Go for it!


----------



## Chuck71

If anyone deserved something as this..... it was you Grid. One never knows

what they are deprived of..... if they never had it to begin with. In your case,

it is the emotional connections you are formulating with the new gal. I'm not one

for the "sex rank" fodder but I will say.... major upgrade. You can tell a lot about

people from a pic... facial expression, body language. But more than any.... the eyes.

Be curious to see a pic of you and RC right before DDay..... my guess is it would

be drastically different from the one with new gal. Try to take things slow, learn about

one another. As for RC wanting to stall.... "hate it for ya but we're galloping on along"

When you and RC met.... at that age, guys marry hoping to get sex day n night. If you

have read many stories on TAM.... how'd that daily thing turn out? She wanted security / 

provider. She did not love you as a W should so you pulled back, RC was resentful of you

and maybe second guessed her decision to marry you.... she pulled back. Question.... in 

all the years you were with RC.... was there ever a time you think both of you were happy

(minus the two girls being born)?

Are you dead set on selling the house? I hope you reconsider. How much of your change 

of heart on selling is due to the fact you can not have a place to be alone with new gal?

How similar / different are your and new gal's visitations set up? Would new gal be understanding

about your availability and living arrangements and know they are just temporary? 

I'm hoping to hear a comment on your new post from "you know who"


----------



## ButtPunch

Grid

I am happy for you but also a little concerned.

I hope you have taken the time to examine why you had such a hard time letting go.

Please do not tie all your happiness into this new relationship. 

Codependency is a relationship killer. 

Do the work necessary and always take care of yourself.

Brought to you by

Codependent No More.....Codependency for Dummies....MMSLP.....NMMNG.......Awareness


----------



## gridcom

ButtPunch said:


> Grid
> 
> I am happy for you but also a little concerned.
> 
> I hope you have taken the time to examine why you had such a hard time letting go.
> 
> Please do not tie all your happiness into this new relationship.
> 
> Codependency is a relationship killer.
> 
> Do the work necessary and always take care of yourself.
> 
> Brought to you by
> 
> Codependent No More.....Codependency for Dummies....MMSLP.....NMMNG.......Awareness


I hear you. Not sure that makes me do anything different than what I am doing, which is going with the terrain.


----------



## Bibi1031

gridcom said:


> I hear you. Not sure that makes me do anything different than what I am doing, which is going with the terrain.


It's your journey and you are doing just fine. Very happy to read your update. These are bright, beautiful days for you. Bask in these new sunshines!


----------



## manfromlamancha

So lets see how this turned out:


You have managed to get rid of someone you married who told you she did not find you attractive and hasn't been that forthcoming in the affection department - CHECK!


You are lucky enough for her to have shown you what she truly is early enough for you not to have reached your old age in a loveless marriage - CHECK!


You managed to raise wonderful kids from this encounter with her to salvage some good from those wasted years - CHECK!


You have found someone who is more attractive, is attracted to you for who you are and who is affectionate towards you - CHECK!


Doing pretty damn good I would say, Grid.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

manfromlamancha said:


> So lets see how this turned out:
> 
> 
> You have managed to get rid of someone you married who told you she did not find you attractive and hasn't been that forthcoming in the affection department - CHECK!
> 
> 
> You are lucky enough for her to have shown you what she truly is early enough for you not to have reached your old age in a loveless marriage - CHECK!
> 
> 
> You managed to raise wonderful kids from this encounter with her to salvage some good from those wasted years - CHECK!
> 
> 
> You have found someone who is more attractive, is attracted to you for who you are and who is affectionate towards you - CHECK!
> 
> 
> Doing pretty damn good I would say, Grid.



All of the above, whilst maintaining his integrity.


----------



## Chuck71

And Grid once thought RC would no doubt "win in the end"

Talk about a GTFOH comment..... ya gave her too much credit.


----------



## gridcom

Hello everyone-

Are you still out there? We are coming up on one year since D-Day. The last year has been quite a life [email protected] I look back (while realizing I am still in this mess) and think about how poorly I handled the adversity. I cant control anyone else and/or how anyone else makes decisions, but focusing strictly on me, yeah I did not handle heavy adversity as good as I would have liked.

I wanted to check in with updates. First on the soon to be ex wife. I dont know where I left off and honestly I dont want to go back and read. It's all still a very sore wound that I dont want to touch. We were going to mediation and about two months ago, during out last mediation, I came to realize that I didn't like the financial deal I was getting. It took me to the 11th hour to truly understand that child support is 25% of your gross salary coming out of your net pay. I just thought about the math of that, and the injustice of what she had done to me and my kids, and I stood up in mediation and said "No, no deal" and walked out. I challenged her to pay for her lawyer and take me to court. My lawyer explained to me that if we went to court, I'd probably lose. But, I took the gamble and simply decided that if she wanted what the judge/court would give her, then she'd have to go to a judge/court to give it to her. I then spent the last two months living in a temporary room about 15 minutes away, and literally taking every opening to make her life difficult, financially speaking. I stopped paying the house phone, the home security, and split the car insurance. I do the food shopping for the house (with the kids) and pay the mortgage, water, gas, electric, cable, all the minimums on the credit cards. She lost her house keys and had to pay a lock smith $325 for a new set of keys and I told her that I wouldnt pay for it. She's been working like a madwoman and I come to the house every morning and work in my office like I still live here, get the kids off the bus, etc. 

And for two months I have been telling her to get her lawyer going and lets go to war/litigation because there was no way I was going to spend the next 15 years of my life working so she could have my money. I make good money and I figured that if she were to get a real job that payed in the 45-48k a year range (she needs a new job anyway, for insurance), then between her take home and what I was willing to pay her, she'd NET $6,000 a month. She had previously did a mock budget for mediation and she said she needed $5400 a month to live (including $300 a month for electric !?!?!?! and a car payment when she currently doesnt have a car payment). I felt $6,000 a month (inclusive of her own salary-remember we live in Westchester, NY) was plenty. I asked for my salary to be capped at $143,000, meaning anything I made over that couldn't be used as child support. I felt that her peers and circle of friends would more or less love their husband to be making 143k and 25% of that was enough. So, for two months now, I've just grinded and FINALLY she gave in to my terms so we are now at final mediation this coming Tuesday. 

I still harbor serious bitterness towards her and am often just plain mean, reminding her that our kids have to go to therapy, I've spent already 20k on mediation, councilling, a new apartment....that my work has suffered. And she has been 100% stone cold unrepentant. She will not/can not bring herself to even admit that any of this is on her, that it all falls on my shoulders, that it's all my fault, that she had every right to do what she did and she wont budge. And I know I should be over it, but honestly it pi$$es me off to no end. I tell her she is going to stubborn herself into misery. I laugh at the pathetic OM, who is 10 years younger and slings coffee at Starbucks. I tell her that it's pretty sad that the guy has to hover in the shadows FOR A YEAR completely unseen. Because I moved out of the house, she has to now stay there every night and I wonder aloud if the coffee slinger is getting impatient and would want to enjoy one singular sunrise with her. I mean, seriously, what kind of pathetic loser would get involved with a married mother of two THEN sit and wait for a year plus while she plays chicken in mediation. I tell her I wish she would have gotten mixed up with an architect, or a business owner, or an electrician. She stares blankly at me, like a deer in headlights. Whatever, I call these moments "SLEDGEHAMMERS OF TRUTH" and I enjoy them. 

Meanwhile, I am openly enjoying a new relationship with the girl I took to New Orleans. I'm not flaunting it, but I'm not hiding it either. We go out and she posts on Facebook that we are here or there and I'm not going to sit there and tell her she cant. She knows what is happening on the other side. We see each other on weekends mostly. We are going to a wedding this weekend where she will meet my family. We are going to Denver next weekend. We are going to Boston to see Paul McCartney. We rented a cabin in the woods of VT in mid Sept. We have a California trip planned in mid Oct, driving the coast from SF to LA in about 4 days and staying at bed and breakfast's. She is self made, an occupational therapist, and has money to pay for herself here. It's not like I am pouring money into that relationship. We dont talk about it, at all, but she doesn't seem to concerned with money.

I was thinking about starting a new thread because it is a new subject. Maybe I will, but I will throw it out there now and get some initial thoughts. She has some baggage. She lived with a guy until Nov of '15. The guy was a war vet and suffers from PTSD, and medicated himself with heroin. He lost his job and stole money from her. She overextended herself to him and he had access to her banking, I guess, and stole the money. Anyway, they broke up in Nov and she erased him from her life and started fresh. I came along and, you know, we went to New Orleans two weeks after we met. Our relationship accelerated and I didn't have any issue with it BECAUSE SHE'S COOL AS HELL, FUN TO BE WITH, AND SEXY TO BOOT. But, like I said to her, I love the room I've entered but I would like to have some of the lights turned on in here. It turns out that the ex-BF is in a rehab facility just 10 miles from us and she paid for it. He is broke as a joke, has nothing, no car, no job, no anything. And so, he's been in this rehab and he's been reaching out to her. I think she went and visited him at the rehab but I cant be sure. We aren't exclusive (we've discussed it) and so it's none of my business. I have my own past to escape and we agreed that when we are together, we are together, but when we are not, we are not. And for now, that's the way I want it to be for now. That's not to say I wouldn't want to explore a more serious relationship with her (an exclusive relationship since we are planning a lot of things together). Anyway, he's texting her constantly. I was at her house this weekend and she left her phone on the table while she went out to take car of something and he's texting her "I would love to see you" "Are you there?" "For once, I would love to see you respond to me and tell me you want to see me too" This kind of stuff. She tells me she is over him but still cares for him, that he has nobody and the PTSD is not his fault and blah blah blah. 

My attitude, frankly, is like "You chose him over me and you are an idiot and not worth my time." I don't feel threatened at all, because I think I've learned there are plenty of fish (!!!!!!!!!)..... but this is some serious Manipulation 101 at work. He's got nothing and he blew it with an awesome woman and I'm sure he's a desperate man. 

IN ADDITION TO THIS, her ex husband who she divorced 8 years ago but they have a 12 year old son together has been coming to get his son on weekends (he lives about 40 miles away) and instead of picking the kid up and leaving, he's been sticking around and trying to be extra cool and nice because, hey, she's single now and maybe he's trying to get in on this. She laughs him off completely, but he was over this past Friday and while she was at work, he decided to put her brand new grill together and I was supposed to meet her at 7pm, and she texts me when I am literally coming down her street asking me to come an hour later because he's in her driveway putting this grill together and even though he knows about me, now would not be a good time to meet him and blah blah blah. Whatever, I went to a bar and started drinking beer and she came and joined me 30 minutes later.

Is this what single life is like in your 40's? You got baggage, they've got baggage? It just comes with the scene? I'm not saying a word about either dude because I'm not looking to put any pressure on her and I am watching to see how she reacts to all this. I don't trust her, at all. But, that would be the case no matter what the situation. I'm keeping my emotions completely out of it and treating that relationship as disposable, but to be honest that's new ground for me. I am a one woman guy, always have been

Talk to you soon!


----------



## Bibi1031

You enjoy life as best you can and keep your girls very close. 

Welcome to single life in your 40s; it's no picnic, what parts in your life have been?

There is no right way to navigate recovery after failed relationships. Your friend is wasting her time with the guy in rehab, but like you said, that's her business. She is not ready for long term commitment with anyone, you weren't either when you two hit it off. But that doesn't mean that you two can't enjoy each other's company right now. You both share time in your life's journey, tomorrow it may not be that way. Who cares, live one Day at a time for now. Your kids are long term, others...prolly not!


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## TeddieG

It almost makes me wonder if, now that she has someone she's interested in, all the ex's, the blasts from the past, are all of a sudden interested again. I DO get her commitment to the ex with PTSD and in a Veteran's center. 

But you sound really strong and really together and really with it. I LOVE that you got Tomato Soup Cougar Robinson gets 25% of your gross salary paid from your net salary. Good man. Well done.


----------



## Marc878

gridcom said:


> Are you still out there? We are coming up on one year since D-Day. The last year has been quite a life [email protected] I look back (while realizing I am still in this mess) and think about how poorly I handled the adversity. I cant control anyone else and/or how anyone else makes decisions, but focusing strictly on me, yeah I did not handle heavy adversity as good as I would have liked.
> 
> I wanted to check in with updates. First on the soon to be ex wife. I dont know where I left off and honestly I dont want to go back and read. It's all still a very sore wound that I dont want to touch. We were going to mediation and about two months ago, during out last mediation, I came to realize that I didn't like the financial deal I was getting. It took me to the 11th hour to truly understand that child support is 25% of your gross salary coming out of your net pay. I just thought about the math of that, and the injustice of what she had done to me and my kids, and I stood up in mediation and said "No, no deal" and walked out. I challenged her to pay for her lawyer and take me to court. My lawyer explained to me that if we went to court, I'd probably lose. But, I took the gamble and simply decided that if she wanted what the judge/court would give her, then she'd have to go to a judge/court to give it to her. I then spent the last two months living in a temporary room about 15 minutes away, and literally taking every opening to make her life difficult, financially speaking. I stopped paying the house phone, the home security, and split the car insurance. I do the food shopping for the house (with the kids) and pay the mortgage, water, gas, electric, cable, all the minimums on the credit cards. She lost her house keys and had to pay a lock smith $325 for a new set of keys and I told her that I wouldnt pay for it. She's been working like a madwoman and I come to the house every morning and work in my office like I still live here, get the kids off the bus, etc.
> 
> And for two months I have been telling her to get her lawyer going and lets go to war/litigation because there was no way I was going to spend the next 15 years of my life working so she could have my money. I make good money and I figured that if she were to get a real job that payed in the 45-48k a year range (she needs a new job anyway, for insurance), then between her take home and what I was willing to pay her, she'd NET $6,000 a month. She had previously did a mock budget for mediation and she said she needed $5400 a month to live (including $300 a month for electric !?!?!?! and a car payment when she currently doesnt have a car payment). I felt $6,000 a month (inclusive of her own salary-remember we live in Westchester, NY) was plenty. I asked for my salary to be capped at $143,000, meaning anything I made over that couldn't be used as child support. I felt that her peers and circle of friends would more or less love their husband to be making 143k and 25% of that was enough. So, for two months now, I've just grinded and FINALLY she gave in to my terms so we are now at final mediation this coming Tuesday.


Glad to see you stand your ground and call their bluff.

Nice job


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## farsidejunky

One day at a time, Grid. It is way too soon to consider anything long term. Have fun with her and focus on your divorce.

Also, stick to one thread. It makes things easier for everyone.

Lastly, your hate is...disturbing. The energy you have committed toward making things hard for your ex shows your hurt. What will you focus on when the divorce is final? How will you co parent with her with so much animosity? 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## JohnA

Once the paper work is sighed drop the hostility towards the ex. All you are doing is proving her right and showing your new girl red flags. I thought you where working on these issues. I thought you understood this was an issue for you and you where working on it. As to being out of the house, yes you got even with OM but all that did was bonded the two together tighter yes not your problem. But you not being in the house are your daughters problem. 

As to exbf of new woman, she is a caring person who carried perhaps a little to strong a sense of responsibility. Ask her to seek help on how to disengage at the VA or a counseler they can recommend. This sense of responsibility speaks greatly of her in a future relationship with you. But at times can be a hindrance. You used IC before to help with coping mech for your anger issues. Do so again to be able to help her. This old post from a woman who married a BH should be your guide, strive in your own way to be her husband. 


Why improve yourself by the new wife of a BS*

As a side note I always find it very interesting when a person is hammering their ex mate so hard for cheating and refuses to accept any responsibility for anything that might have been wrong in the marriage.

My husband's exwife cheated on him and left him for the OM. She was pregnant by OM before the divorce was final. When I met him he admitted he knew he'd done things in the marriage which left it vulnerable to an affair.*

He owned his behavior.*

He didn't condone her affair but he accepted responsibility for his part in the demise of their marriage. That was something I had to respect. He worked on himself, in therapy, while they were separated and divorcing. When she wouldn't go to MC, he went alone, and I have reaped the benefit from that counseling. *


Finally, I understand and agree with you about the money. But you won that battle, now win the war.

Be well


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## gridcom

JohnA said:


> Once the paper work is sighed drop the hostility towards the ex. All you are doing is proving her right and showing your new girl red flags. I thought you where working on these issues. I thought you understood this was an issue for you and you where working on it. As to being out of the house, yes you got even with OM but all that did was bonded the two together tighter yes not your problem. But you not being in the house are your daughters problem.
> 
> As to exbf of new woman, she is a caring person who carried perhaps a little to strong a sense of responsibility. Ask her to seek help on how to disengage at the VA or a counseler they can recommend. This sense of responsibility speaks greatly of her in a future relationship with you. But at times can be a hindrance. You used IC before to help with coping mech for your anger issues. Do so again to be able to help her. This old post from a woman who married a BH should be your guide, strive in your own way to be her husband.
> 
> 
> Why improve yourself by the new wife of a BS*
> 
> As a side note I always find it very interesting when a person is hammering their ex mate so hard for cheating and refuses to accept any responsibility for anything that might have been wrong in the marriage.
> 
> My husband's exwife cheated on him and left him for the OM. She was pregnant by OM before the divorce was final. When I met him he admitted he knew he'd done things in the marriage which left it vulnerable to an affair.*
> 
> He owned his behavior.*
> 
> He didn't condone her affair but he accepted responsibility for his part in the demise of their marriage. That was something I had to respect. He worked on himself, in therapy, while they were separated and divorcing. When she wouldn't go to MC, he went alone, and I have reaped the benefit from that counseling. *
> 
> 
> Finally, I understand and agree with you about the money. But you won that battle, now win the war.
> 
> Be well


I think I have been very, very upfront about taking responsibility of my side of the street in this mess. And yes, the absolute defiance and unrepentance from the ex irks the sh:t out of me. There isn't a single conversation between us about the house or kids where the consequences and just all around suck doesn't rear its head. And honestly, why should I be nice to her? I don't pine for her or care about who she see's on her time, but I could never forgive her and to me, letting it go once and for all in some ways will make her think she was right and I did "deserve it". Nobody deserves that


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## gridcom

farsidejunky said:


> How will you co parent with her with so much animosity?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Good question. It's hard for me to drop it and be like "No, it's cool." Honestly, it's still very much "No,f\/ck you"


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## farsidejunky

gridcom said:


> Good question. It's hard for me to drop it and be like "No, it's cool." Honestly, it's still very much "No,f\/ck you"


“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.”

-Yoda

Laugh at the source? Maybe.

Laugh at the content? Another story entirely. 

You need to unpack this thing in counseling, Grid, because she is not the only stubborn one in this story.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Bibi1031

gridcom said:


> *why should I be nice to her? *I don't pine for her or care about who she see's on her time, *but I could never forgive her* and to me, letting it go once and for all in some ways will make her think she was right and I did "deserve it". *Nobody deserves that*


You don't have to be nice to her, but you do need to be civil. The sooner the better...even if it irks you.

For what it's worth IMO, you don't have to forgive her. He11, she doesn't deserve your forgiveness even if it's for you and not her! You do need to channel your anger a bit better once you and her are done and don't have to share the same space on a daily basis even if it's for a few hours. I think I could not stand it and not be angry and bitter if I HAD to do what you are doing. You have come a long way from a year ago. 

Take it from someone that went through this ordeal 14 or so years ago...she will not think you deserved this for long or if ever...you will just not hear it from her lips.:frown2:


"Nobody deserves that is a given. She knows it deep down. Too stubborn or proud to ever let you know it though...not your problem. Forgiveness is a gift you give. Not all of us can give that gift. I surely ain't that giving or forgiving for that matter!:smile2:


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## Evinrude58

Glad go hear from you.

I hate that your friend had an ex husband putting her grill together and an ex in rehab that she's texting.

You know from experience that women can do illogical stuff like going back to an addict or ex husband, or falling for a coffee slinger.

I hope you aren't getting to attached. I've gotten attached to my new gf, and lately her female side is showing it's true colors. Jealousy, having arguments about nothing and she cannot accept ANY blame, but dishes it out quite well. I'm having to learn about "feelings" vs reasoning..... 

Anyway, good luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JohnA

Grid, yes you acknowledge them, but in your day to day life, and with this new woman, and with your daughter what the f-CK has change? "dad at least he agrees that he is 796;;08?" If I am then I would say gee dad your right and walk. Believe me I am on your side. Two years from now I want you with a better person, without those things that drove your wife away with the ex eating her heart out saying why now.


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## threelittlestars

Wow man, good for you! Keep us posts on the mediation outcome and when reality hits the Ex.  So we can all relish in the satisfaction with you.


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## Chuck71

gridcom said:


> Hello everyone-
> 
> Is this what single life is like in your 40's? You got baggage, they've got baggage? It just comes with the scene? I'm not saying a word about either dude because I'm not looking to put any pressure on her and I am watching to see how she reacts to all this. I don't trust her, at all. But, that would be the case no matter what the situation. I'm keeping my emotions completely out of it and treating that relationship as disposable, but to be honest that's new ground for me. I am a one woman guy, always have been
> 
> Talk to you soon!


You have traveled light years...... we all told you you would. 

IF RC still shares songs with Pimples ... send her this 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEhYFnwTciQ

In all honesty..... everyone would like to ask her, Was it All Worth It?

I do like your new approach... you want all this... come and get it, I'm not just handing it over.

Best of luck on the mediation. I do hope your girls are starting to see some type of a "new" routine.

Even if RC and Pimples continue to date... it has no way of lasting. RC will be cash strapped 

and Starbucks is not the job to rake in the cash she needs. He may be content but she won't.

As for dating in your 40s... yeah, far cry from 20-25 years ago ain't it! Seen this firsthand the last 

18 months. I did get off much easier, no kids, no $ payments, just a bit of her debt.

Most people our age are damaged, actually very damaged. Numerous unresolved issues, bitterness.

Sure I can sympathize with them but that's it. They are NOT relationship material.

But I'm sure there are some KISA / Mr. NGs out there ready to save the day... have at it.

A vast majority of people have zero baggage in their early 20s... those that do that early, sneak preview

of things to come. Exact opposite in early 40s. The game has changed.

Of course what you want has changed as well. In many ways you still.... don't know exactly what you want.

Tread cautiously with new gal. Those are red flags. But then again... you are just dating.

If either one of you wants a commitment... that's when you must examine these.

Anything can happen in 2016..... he!! Bartolo Colon hit a freaking home run.... What next...

Cubs win the World Series?


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## Chuck71

gridcom said:


> Good question. It's hard for me to drop it and be like "No, it's cool." Honestly, it's still very much "No,f\/ck you"


Sounds similar to Anakin Skywalker in Star Wars III (2005). You were not happy for a long time....

she did you a favor. My XW did me the same favor, just took me a couple months to 

realize it. Hate is better used for torque than horsepower. Short, quick bursts.

I know all about the hate.... it almost ate me alive. And to beat it all it wasn't at my parents or 

a female in a LTR. Maybe it was because I was so young.....

If you carry that hate, she wins. She is not worthy of that hate or winning.

Don Henley said it best in 1990.... ironic this song came out right at the time of my 1st break up.

It holds true 26 years late..... Heart of the Matter / Forgiveness 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YuOCM2V-Uk


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## MattMatt

Bibi1031 said:


> You enjoy life as best you can and keep your girls very close.
> 
> Welcome to single life in your 40s; it's no picnic, what parts in your life have been?
> 
> There is no right way to navigate recovery after failed relationships. Your friend is wasting her time with the guy in rehab, but like you said, that's her business. She is not ready for long term commitment with anyone, you weren't either when you two hit it off. But that doesn't mean that you two can't enjoy each other's company right now. You both share time in your life's journey, tomorrow it may not be that way. Who cares, live one Day at a time for now. Your kids are long term, others...prolly not!


You and your new woman have both been dumped on by experts.

Go forward together in that light as lovers or good friends?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort

gridcom said:


> Good question. It's hard for me to drop it and be like "No, it's cool." Honestly, it's still very much "No,f\/ck you"


The answer is that you can't. If you walk around po'd your daughters will suffer and that's a selfish attitude. 

I dealt with this with my father for years after his divorce from my mom and it very much damaged our relationship. We were able to repair it but we lost some years and there were scars. 

The fact is if you're openly being an a$$hole to your ex you're not really owning your stuff. Anger comes from a place of victimhood.

You owning is not contingent on her owning her stuff, and JohnA is correct that this anger justifies her decision to dump you and makes you a terrible prospect for someone else.

I'd never get involved with someone who walked around po'd at their ex. Doesn't leave much to give emotionally. 

And it will damage your relationship with your daughters. 

Deal with it now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ThreeStrikes

Grid,

I have no issue with your feelings of righteous anger towards your PoS ex. It's completely normal.

The folks who are telling you it's not healthy have probably never experienced it before. 

Funnel that righteous anger into positivity for your future.

Just keep your kids out of the splash zone.


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## Pluto2

Grid, I understand the anger. You are still sorting out the aftermath of her blitzkrieg. First, you had to deal and arrange and finance some form of alternate living arrangements WITH HER, then you have to split up what was once your family's finances WITH HER. She remains your focus, so its hard not to have anger.

The sooner you solve each element of the split, the residences, the money, the custody, you WILL focus on her less and less. I believe once that happens, once you shift your focus from HER to you and your new GF, the anger will also subside. What she does with Starbucks just won't matter. It will become irrelevant to your world. You can reach MEH. Just remember at some point, any continued anger does become a choice. So when the time comes, choose not to care about her any more. She will then become as relevant as the mailman when she gets the kids. "Oh, you broke up with Starbucks, gee too bad-have the kids back at 5, I've gotta go".


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## manfromlamancha

Grid, do I understand that your new gf is sleeping with other people including her ex'es (and you are OK with this) ? You also say contradicting things like "she is great" and "you don't trust her" ?

Am I misunderstanding this ?


----------



## TRy

gridcom said:


> I have never strayed myself and have scored highly when it comes to being a provider, friend and father, when it comes to being a partner I admittedly have failed. I do love my wife very much and I am sure that I have my own emotional issues that have never been addressed. She has been the giver and I have been the taker


 Stop buying into her affair fog logic as to why she cheated. If you have "have scored highly when it comes to being a provider, friend and father", then you rank better than most when it comes to "being a partner". No one is perfect, nor can anyone be expected to be perfect. If she had issues with you she should have tried to work them out with you. This is 100% on her. You need to see things as they really are, and you need to start getting mad that she betrayed you and your children.


----------



## gridcom

manfromlamancha said:


> Grid, do I understand that your new gf is sleeping with other people including her ex'es (and you are OK with this) ? You also say contradicting things like "she is great" and "you don't trust her" ?
> 
> Am I misunderstanding this ?


Yes, misunderstood. Sleeping with? I dont think so, but again, we are just dating and it's not really my business. I wouldn't NOT sleep with someone else if it were to happen. And I would not feel inclined to tell her at this time because we are just dating and not exclusive. 

She is great! I dont trust her. I dont trust anyone. I dont think I could trust another woman for a long, long time and they will need to put the points up on the board.

Trust is earned. It's not given. At least thats how I feel now.


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## TeddieG

Pluto2 said:


> Grid, I understand the anger. You are still sorting out the aftermath of her blitzkrieg. First, you had to deal and arrange and finance some form of alternate living arrangements WITH HER, then you have to split up what was once your family's finances WITH HER. She remains your focus, so its hard not to have anger.
> 
> The sooner you solve each element of the split, the residences, the money, the custody, you WILL focus on her less and less. I believe once that happens, once you shift your focus from HER to you and your new GF, the anger will also subside. What she does with Starbucks just won't matter. It will become irrelevant to your world. You can reach MEH. Just remember at some point, any continued anger does become a choice. So when the time comes, choose not to care about her any more. She will then become as relevant as the mailman when she gets the kids. "Oh, you broke up with Starbucks, gee too bad-have the kids back at 5, I've gotta go".


I so agree with this. My ex h has been gone for good six months, the divorce was final in December and last week the six-month mark post divorce passed so he is free to remarry in this state. I NEVER got really angry with him or at him until the last few months when he still has trouble letting go, contacts me, wants mail, wants this, wants that. I want him to move the fvck along in his new life with his new woman and leave me the hell alone. 

But I have also been angry because I know it is over and I invested 20 years in a man who spent half that time self-absorbed. He has his new woman training to be a CNA so that someone will take care of him when he is sick and old and dying; and I had surgery twice so he bolted - it had to be all about him and he wasn't into "for better or worse, in sickness or in health." 

Anger is part of the healing process and part of the grieving process and when all is said and done and the dust settles from the divorce, you will progress through the healing and the grief some more until you wake up one morning and realize you're over it. A friend of mine told me once, during my first divorce, that I wouldn't be aware that I WASN'T over it, but one day I would realize I was. She was right. But at the moment, I am totally aware I am not over the anger and the betrayal and the abandonment, but someday I will be.

So will you.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Hey Grid.... heads up on the GF with the ex who self medicated with heroine.... has she been tested for Hepatitis C, Aids etc? You need to be careful....


----------



## manfromlamancha

gridcom said:


> Yes, misunderstood. Sleeping with? I dont think so, but again, we are just dating and it's not really my business. I wouldn't NOT sleep with someone else if it were to happen. And I would not feel inclined to tell her at this time because we are just dating and not exclusive.
> 
> She is great! I dont trust her. I dont trust anyone. I dont think I could trust another woman for a long, long time and they will need to put the points up on the board.
> 
> Trust is earned. It's not given. At least thats how I feel now.


OK I get it. Actually a smart, wise attitude to this. Good for you.


----------



## Ms. GP

Tread carefully with new girl or any girl really. Sounds like she might have some codepency/trouble saying no issues. Mabye no though. Too soon to tell. She's paying for his rehab? Did I read that right? Do you know how expensive that is? The military usually pays for 28 days? I'm confused. In the meantime, have fun and go on lots of cool trips.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chuck71

Dating is fun.... a LTR is work.

Grid needs to have fun. The emotional suction device still is clawing at him until the D is final


----------



## gridcom

We went to "final" mediation on Tuesday morning. Hammered out the deal, which includes a cap on how much of my income she can draw child support from once she gets a job that pays 48k. I agreed to no cap while she looks and in the meantime, she has to send 4 resumes a week and every Friday forward me the e-mails she sent with her resume along with a link to the jobs. She agreed. She also agreed to a one year limit in finding the job, and if she doesnt find it in one year, the cap gets enforced.

She admitted at mediation that she has sent "about 10" resumes since the beginning of the year because she's "been busy"

Today, she sent an e-mail to me and the mediator saying she changed her mind and doesn't want to have to report the 4 resumes a week to me, nor is she agreeing to a one year limit. She agrees to the salary cap when she gets the 48k a year job, but "she gets the job when she gets the job" and I'll just have to deal with that. I went over to the house furious she just had me waste $800 and I got her to agree to the one year deadline but I cant monitor her job search.

So, essentially she has one year to futz around. And then when she doesn't get the job she'll complain how she doesn't have enough money to live and her kids are going to suffer. It wont matter because the deal will be signed by then, but that's where this is headed.

So, the mediation score card

1- she gets full custody of the kids and I get 26 weekends every year, one mutually agreeable weekday every week, alternating holidays
2- we sell the house and take the profits and pay off the marital debt in full. She's agreed the marital debt is 50/50
3- No alimony
4- My income that she can draw child support from is capped at 143k starting when she gets a job that pays 48k or better and she has one year to get that job. Until then, no cap on my salary.
5- I have waived my rights to her fairly substantial retirement and she's waived her right to my pretty measly 401k.
6- We both have to live within a 30 minute car ride of the town we live in now

I'd say I did OK. In these situations, it seems the best case is both sides feel a bit butt hurt and nobody feels completely butt hurt

Thoughts?


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## farsidejunky

Is the year limit in force or not? It is unclear. 

Who cares if she submits the resumes. Get the one year cap and let the rest of that garbage go.

Call it the cost of doing business.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## lifeistooshort

My former boss used to say, when he was doing annual budgeting, that since he couldn't make everyone happy he could at least make everyone equally unhappy. Sounds like that happened here and that's often the goal. 

You monitoring her job search is ridiculous. .... you're not her father and you don't get to control that. But a time limit is reasonable, though we both know that it's not always easy to get a decent job. Particularly if you can't move. 

Unemployment is a lot longer for that reason. But it's not reasonable to her to have unlimited time to get a job, so in that sense it's fair. 

I've never heard of an income cap for cs, but that's good for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TeddieG

Good job. Her chutzpah, though. It's not necessarily true that both sides are a little butt hurt. A lot of cheating SOB's offer (at least mine offered, the first time, way more than I wanted) the moon to get out of the marriage because of the affair fog. 

You cleared the fog of divorce, my friend.


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## Chuck71

gridcom;15982001
1- she gets full custody of the kids and I get 26 weekends every year said:


> You have to be schitting me Grid......
> 
> You HAVE to be SCHITTING me...... huh... strange man walks up to me
> 
> "This is New York.... the state where if you have a vagina, you get what you want."
> 
> LTS is correct.... it's hard to find an equal paying job today compared to 2006.
> 
> I know friends with masters in multiple areas.... working as assistant managers at K-Mart and
> 
> delivering pizzas at night. The job market is still severely fractured.
> 
> You're ok with her not finding one at 48k but busting her butt to find one. What you can't deal with is
> 
> her sitting on her arse not looking.... this plays a role in your cash payouts..... understandable.
> 
> What are her chances of wanting a renegotiation after one year?
> 
> Moneywise.... you got an okay deal. The kids.... a schit deal. But keep in mind.... in a few years your
> 
> girl(s) will have more say on where they want to stay. I can't stress this enough..... a good father in
> 
> a young girl's life always pays extraordinary dividends down the road. You are that father......


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## MJJEAN

I'd ask that an officer of the court monitor the job search if she objects to monitoring it. Otherwise, she'll just submit 10 applications/resume's this year, too.


----------



## just got it 55

I just got back in

What did I miss

55


----------



## sapientia

gridcom said:


> She is great! I dont trust her. I dont trust anyone. I dont think I could trust another woman for a long, long time and they will need to put the points up on the board.
> 
> Trust is earned. It's not given. At least thats how I feel now.


If I may insert a thought for you -- make a distinction between trust and trustworthy.

Trust comes from you. You are currently damaged in this respect.

Trustworthy comes from the other person. Unless you have reason to suspect them (in which case dump them asap), particularly if they seem of good general integrity, you risk offending them with testing them.

Your past mistakes are not for someone else to live up to. Certainly, adjust your picker and reconsider your own choices, but make sure you aren't making them pay for your issues. Counselling may help you.

I met a couple of damaged men like you when I was dating. I cut them loose immediately -- definitely their loss, not mine -- but they weren't healthy enough for a relationship, IMO.

Hope this helps.


----------



## Bibi1031

MJJEAN said:


> I'd ask that an officer of the court monitor the job search if she objects to monitoring it. Otherwise, she'll just submit 10 applications/resume's this year, too.


I agree with this poster. Divorce is strictly business and her moving her arse to find a better paying job is all about money...yours!

It's not about controlling her, it's just business as usual. She was offended by you needing to know her every move...well yes, in the job of course! What did she think, that you were not going to wake up and smell her getting away with ripping you off?


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## turnera

Evinrude58 said:


> Glad go hear from you.
> 
> I hate that your friend had an ex husband putting her grill together and an ex in rehab that she's texting.


Dude, seriously. She's 'seeing' three men at the same time, and has the balls to tell you to go away for an hour so she doesn't mess up her relationship with her EX? 

And you DO it? And then let her come meet you and you buy her drinks?

Come on.


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## 3Xnocharm

Ok, WHY IN THE HELL is she getting full custody of the kids???


----------



## Evinrude58

Grid, don't invest too many feelings in your gf. She doesn't sound interested in a long term relationship. But that's fine. I just get attached fairly easily. You may not be that way and are fine.
I hate that you got screwed in the custody, but the courts don't really investigate who the kids are better off with. They just give to mom and forget it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gridcom

turnera2 said:


> Dude, seriously. She's 'seeing' three men at the same time, and has the balls to tell you to go away for an hour so she doesn't mess up her relationship with her EX?
> 
> And you DO it? And then let her come meet you and you buy her drinks?
> 
> Come on.


I dont think she is "seeing" three men. her ex-husband has to come pick up the son. He lives 70 min away. He stayed the other night instead of turning around and leaving. She didnt want him there, but I'm sure they have a fairly calm relationship where she cant be like "No, you have to go." The PTSD dude, I have no idea. Maybe so, maybe not. Doesnt matter. Like I said, we are only dating. 

Is dating frowned upon here? And by definition can you only date one person at a time. I am keeping emotions out of it, for sure. I like being alone and not bothered for stretches and in the company of others for stretches, so it works out well


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## gridcom

3Xnocharm said:


> Ok, WHY IN THE HELL is she getting full custody of the kids???


She is getting full custody of the kids because this past year, I've learned that that is best for the kids. I get them off the bus every day and they are just downstairs alone while I work until 9pm. Ex gets home at like 5pm, and I leave and go work until 9pm at my other place. At least at 5pm, there is a parent interacting with the kids. I simply cant. I love my job, but you have to be dedicated and spend many hours doing it, especially in the late afternoon/early evening.

My free time is usually mornings, from 7am (early riser here) until 11am. I walk, I futz around on the internet. I mow the lawn. I do chores. From 11am on, until about 9-10, I'm working

This is the reality of my life. The kids should have a parent who can do the homework and interact with them everyday. It's not about me, it's about them


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## TX-SC

As long as the person you are dating is on the same page, just do what works for you.


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## 3Xnocharm

gridcom said:


> She is getting full custody of the kids because this past year, I've learned that that is best for the kids. I get them off the bus every day and they are just downstairs alone while I work until 9pm. Ex gets home at like 5pm, and I leave and go work until 9pm at my other place. At least at 5pm, there is a parent interacting with the kids. I simply cant. I love my job, but you have to be dedicated and spend many hours doing it, especially in the late afternoon/early evening.
> 
> My free time is usually mornings, from 7am (early riser here) until 11am. I walk, I futz around on the internet. I mow the lawn. I do chores. From 11am on, until about 9-10, I'm working
> 
> This is the reality of my life. The kids should have a parent who can do the homework and interact with them everyday. It's not about me, it's about them


Thanks for clarifying, Grid, I was kinda horrified...if this is what works in the best interest of your kids, then all good.


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## turnera

gridcom said:


> I dont think she is "seeing" three men.


No? She has repeatedly put the needs of THOSE TWO MEN ahead of YOUR needs.

What's YOUR definition?


----------



## Bibi1031

gridcom said:


> Is dating frowned upon here? And by definition can you only date one person at a time. I am keeping emotions out of it, for sure. I like being alone and not bothered for stretches and in the company of others for stretches, so it works out well


I think your approach at dating is spot on!

As to Tomato Soup, I am still pissed that she is angry because you wanted to know how hard she was trying at landing a better paying job. Well, she is going to reap what she sowed! >

I was listening to this song and it made me think of her.


Rolling in the Deep - Adele - Vevo

I am so dang proud of your progress Grid that I even get pissedat your STBX for you...lol


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## honcho

gridcom said:


> We went to "final" mediation on Tuesday morning. Hammered out the deal, which includes a cap on how much of my income she can draw child support from once she gets a job that pays 48k. I agreed to no cap while she looks and in the meantime, she has to send 4 resumes a week and every Friday forward me the e-mails she sent with her resume along with a link to the jobs. She agreed. She also agreed to a one year limit in finding the job, and if she doesnt find it in one year, the cap gets enforced.
> 
> She admitted at mediation that she has sent "about 10" resumes since the beginning of the year because she's "been busy"
> 
> Today, she sent an e-mail to me and the mediator saying she changed her mind and doesn't want to have to report the 4 resumes a week to me, nor is she agreeing to a one year limit. She agrees to the salary cap when she gets the 48k a year job, but "she gets the job when she gets the job" and I'll just have to deal with that. I went over to the house furious she just had me waste $800 and I got her to agree to the one year deadline but I cant monitor her job search.
> 
> So, essentially she has one year to futz around. And then when she doesn't get the job she'll complain how she doesn't have enough money to live and her kids are going to suffer. It wont matter because the deal will be signed by then, but that's where this is headed.
> 
> So, the mediation score card
> 
> 1- she gets full custody of the kids and I get 26 weekends every year, one mutually agreeable weekday every week, alternating holidays
> 2- we sell the house and take the profits and pay off the marital debt in full. She's agreed the marital debt is 50/50
> 3- No alimony
> 4- My income that she can draw child support from is capped at 143k starting when she gets a job that pays 48k or better and she has one year to get that job. Until then, no cap on my salary.
> 5- I have waived my rights to her fairly substantial retirement and she's waived her right to my pretty measly 401k.
> 6- We both have to live within a 30 minute car ride of the town we live in now
> 
> I'd say I did OK. In these situations, it seems the best case is both sides feel a bit butt hurt and nobody feels completely butt hurt
> 
> Thoughts?


She won't find a job paying 48k and a year from now you will be right back into court/mediation addressing the problem again. One of your hang ups which will give her leverage is the 30 mile limit to where your living now. You put a limit on potential employers because of the radius thus creating a hardship to find a job. That's what a lawyer would argue. 

She can send a hundred resumes a month out, she can easily tank an interview to not get a job. My crazy ex was out of work for over 3 years and when she did get interviews she would find a way to screw it up.

With her getting full custody you really should get some type of iron clad agreement in the hear and now, anything with clauses of future goals or events is bound to come back and haunt you.


----------



## just got it 55

gridcom said:


> I dont think she is "seeing" three men. her ex-husband has to come pick up the son. He lives 70 min away. He stayed the other night instead of turning around and leaving. She didnt want him there, but I'm sure they have a fairly calm relationship where she cant be like "No, you have to go." The PTSD dude, I have no idea. Maybe so, maybe not. Doesnt matter. Like I said, we are only dating.
> 
> Is dating frowned upon here? And by definition can you only date one person at a time. I am keeping emotions out of it, for sure. I like being alone and not bothered for stretches and in the company of others for stretches, so it works out well


Grid if it is what it is 

This sounds healthy to me

Just have fun Bro

55


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## phillybeffandswiss

People argued and became mad, but I'll suggest it again. Mediation is for people who are at least amicable with each other. You two are not and the money you think you are saving is going to come out of the back end from your wallet. There will come a point, I've seen it happen to friends, where the cost of everything you gave up ends up being more than if you hired a lawyer by tens of THOUSANDS of dollars.


----------



## soccermom2three

honcho said:


> She won't find a job paying 48k and a year from now you will be right back into court/mediation addressing the problem again. One of your hang ups which will give her leverage is the 30 mile limit to where your living now. You put a limit on potential employers because of the radius thus creating a hardship to find a job. That's what a lawyer would argue.
> 
> She can send a hundred resumes a month out, she can easily tank an interview to not get a job. My crazy ex was out of work for over 3 years and when she did get interviews she would find a way to screw it up.
> 
> With her getting full custody you really should get some type of iron clad agreement in the hear and now, anything with clauses of future goals or events is bound to come back and haunt you.


Doesn't she work at Starbucks? The average salary for a retail store manager is $41K to $62K. It probably depends on seniority and where you live. My coworker's sister in law makes about $60K as a manager for Starbucks.


----------



## Chuck71

soccermom2three said:


> Doesn't she work at Starbucks? The average salary for a retail store manager is $41K to $62K. It probably depends on seniority and where you live. My coworker's sister in law makes about $60K as a manager for Starbucks.


WOW....... Cost of living here is low. You would be lucky to pull in $25k as retail mgr / Starbucks.


----------



## soccermom2three

Chuck71 said:


> WOW....... Cost of living here is low. You would be lucky to pull in $25k as retail mgr / Starbucks.


https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Starbucks-Store-Manager-Salaries-E2202_D_KO10,23.htm


----------



## Evinrude58

She's never going to get a job paying 48k because she'd rather sit around banging Starbucks while working part time. She has zero motivation nor inclination to find a decent job. She's already shown this for years. Grid's 48k and resume clause is useless.

She's going to milk him for years. Many, many years. And it sounds like his state is the best state for good ex husband milking.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pluto2

Grid, every contract has an implied obligation of good faith, even a mediated separation agreement. You will have recourse in the future


----------



## sapientia

soccermom2three said:


> Doesn't she work at Starbucks? The average salary for a retail store manager is $41K to $62K. It probably depends on seniority and where you live. My coworker's sister in law makes about $60K as a manager for Starbucks.


I was thinking the same thing. It is not hard at all to get a job that pays that little. Is it?


----------



## gridcom

Yesterday was the one year anniversary of my D-Day. The singular worst year of my life without question. To celebrate the occasion, the girl I have been dating dumped me and told me she still had feelings for her ex-BF (who suffers from PTSD and got hooked on heroin, has no job, no car, and constantly texts and calls and begs and pleads) and just like that today, BANG picture of the two of them on her FB page. 

The funny thing is we JUST went to Denver this weekend together and had a tremendous time. We saw all the sites, ate at Sams3, went to Red Rocks to see a show, hung out with some of her friends. Had a bunch of sex, no sign of ANY trouble brewing. When I dropped her off on Sunday night, her parting words were "I always have such a good time with you" and honestly it seems innocent but I thought that comment was a bit peculiar. Didnt talk to her on the 4th, minimal contact on the 5th, and on the 6th she called me and told me she was honestly missing the heroin junkie manipulative BF and she's decided to give him another chance. I'm sure all the texts, e-mails, and calling helped him. The guy was relentless and I'm sure she blocked his excessiveness when I was around. Anyway, I asked if she had this in mind when she flew to meet me in denver, and she admitted she did but wanted to come anyway.

I'll be honest. I kicked total a$$ in this relationship and did it all right. I'm a bit hurt. She was really cool, but I guess love is blind? Despite his being a total loser (she even paid for her own engagement ring a few years back), he is in shape and looks like GI Joe. And her with her fake boobs and fake eyelashes I'm guessing looks are everything, even past 40.

Welcome to dating in your 40's. 

Here's her parting e-mail (a day after we spoke) for those curious in these types of things:

You didn't do anything wrong. It just came on me like a ton of bricks, that I can not continue having a relationship with you and still have feelings for someone else. 

I would not want someone doing that to me.

For some reason I have been fighting my self. Maybe confused, unsure of what I want and wanting to move on with you. 

I won't patronize you, but you are a great person and I felt a strong connection with you. But I like I said I just can not continue a relationship with anyone, when my thoughts are with someone else. 
I think this would have turned out differently if we met, at a different time and space. I know it would have! It makes me very very sad. I am going to miss you so so so much. Your the bomb. 

I don't want to rescue Joe, or anyone. I don't have PTSD, and I don't have special powers to make people do things. I would appreciate it that you not label me or put me in some kind of box, labeled "rescuer". 
I don't have coping problems, and I accept my challenges whether they are with someone else or my own. 

I just made a personal decision. I am sorry that you feel I am cold, I just don't want my words to be miss read, I want to be clear. I just think it's better that way. 

I appreciate you as a person and I respect you completely. You deserve the truth, and honesty. 

I wish you the best in life, with love and happiness. 


------

Anyway, I have a date tomorrow.


----------



## Nucking Futs

gridcom said:


> Yesterday was the one year anniversary of my D-Day. The singular worst year of my life without question. To celebrate the occasion, the girl I have been dating dumped me and told me she still had feelings for her ex-BF (who suffers from PTSD and got hooked on heroin, has no job, no car, and constantly texts and calls and begs and pleads) and just like that today, BANG picture of the two of them on her FB page.
> 
> The funny thing is we JUST went to Denver this weekend together and had a tremendous time. We saw all the sites, ate at Sams3, went to Red Rocks to see a show, hung out with some of her friends. Had a bunch of sex, no sign of ANY trouble brewing. When I dropped her off on Sunday night, her parting words were "I always have such a good time with you" and honestly it seems innocent but I thought that comment was a bit peculiar. Didnt talk to her on the 4th, minimal contact on the 5th, and on the 6th she called me and told me she was honestly missing the heroin junkie manipulative BF and she's decided to give him another chance. I'm sure all the texts, e-mails, and calling helped him. The guy was relentless and I'm sure she blocked his excessiveness when I was around. Anyway, I asked if she had this in mind when she flew to meet me in denver, and she admitted she did but wanted to come anyway.
> 
> I'll be honest. I kicked total a$$ in this relationship and did it all right. I'm a bit hurt. She was really cool, but I guess love is blind? Despite his being a total loser (she even paid for her own engagement ring a few years back), he is in shape and looks like GI Joe. And her with her fake boobs and fake eyelashes I'm guessing looks are everything, even past 40.
> 
> Welcome to dating in your 40's.
> 
> Here's her parting e-mail (a day after we spoke) for those curious in these types of things:
> 
> You didn't do anything wrong. It just came on me like a ton of bricks, that I can not continue having a relationship with you and still have feelings for someone else.
> 
> I would not want someone doing that to me.
> 
> For some reason I have been fighting my self. Maybe confused, unsure of what I want and wanting to move on with you.
> 
> I won't patronize you, but you are a great person and I felt a strong connection with you. But I like I said I just can not continue a relationship with anyone, when my thoughts are with someone else.
> I think this would have turned out differently if we met, at a different time and space. I know it would have! It makes me very very sad. I am going to miss you so so so much. Your the bomb.
> 
> I don't want to rescue Joe, or anyone. I don't have PTSD, and I don't have special powers to make people do things. I would appreciate it that you not label me or put me in some kind of box, labeled "rescuer".
> I don't have coping problems, and I accept my challenges whether they are with someone else or my own.
> 
> I just made a personal decision. I am sorry that you feel I am cold, I just don't want my words to be miss read, I want to be clear. I just think it's better that way.
> 
> I appreciate you as a person and I respect you completely. You deserve the truth, and honesty.
> 
> I wish you the best in life, with love and happiness.
> 
> 
> ------
> 
> Anyway, I have a date tomorrow.


I wouldn't bother to reply to this email, or any other communication attempt she may make. Go on that date tomorrow and don't give another thought to this one. She's not the one that got away, she's a bullet you dodged.


----------



## gridcom

Nucking Futs said:


> She's not the one that got away, she's a bullet you dodged.


Whoa. Nice one. I'm sure that is true, but it doesn't make it any easier today.


----------



## honcho

Some people will always figure out a way to sabatoge their lives, the now ex gf appears to be one of them. 

Chalk the experience up as a learning experience and work on your picker.


----------



## sokillme

gridcom said:


> Whoa. Nice one. I'm sure that is true, but it doesn't make it any easier today.


Might want to get some work on your picker. This girl wasn't as good as you thought.


----------



## Bibi1031

sokillme said:


> Might want to get some work on your picker. This girl wasn't as good as you thought.


It's not his picker. He wasn't planning on marrying this girl. He just wanted to feel love and give it back. We all need that after being crushed by the infidelity bulldozer. 

You enjoyed some good times with this woman. Enjoy the memories and look forward to more with someone else that will share your seat in this journey called life. Remember that most of the passengers next to you on the seat will be temporary. 

Of course it's sad. You were intimately involved with another person. You have feelings and attachments that now you need to mourn. Give it a couple of weeks and you will remember the good times without pain. It is the life you are going to live for a while. It will be hard to get used to it because it is not the life your asked for, but it is the one you were dealt. 

like the saying goes...if you're going through hell, keep going! I will add, as long as you don't stay stuck in hell, I sure as heck don't mind to keeping going as one day I won't be heading there anymore.:wink2:


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## farsidejunky

Grid:

I think you should step back on the dating for a while.

You are stunting your healing by not grieving your marriage and allowing yourself to recover.

I get it, brother. I did the same thing when my ex wife left me. You want to know what happened? I ended up on TAM 12 years later because I had never really dealt with those things, and it nearly killed my current marriage.

Take the time to properly heal.

Take care, brother.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## MattMatt

gridcom said:


> Yesterday was the one year anniversary of my D-Day. The singular worst year of my life without question. To celebrate the occasion, the girl I have been dating dumped me and told me she still had feelings for her ex-BF (who suffers from PTSD and got hooked on heroin, has no job, no car, and constantly texts and calls and begs and pleads) and just like that today, BANG picture of the two of them on her FB page.
> 
> The funny thing is we JUST went to Denver this weekend together and had a tremendous time. We saw all the sites, ate at Sams3, went to Red Rocks to see a show, hung out with some of her friends. Had a bunch of sex, no sign of ANY trouble brewing. When I dropped her off on Sunday night, her parting words were "I always have such a good time with you" and honestly it seems innocent but I thought that comment was a bit peculiar. Didnt talk to her on the 4th, minimal contact on the 5th, and on the 6th she called me and told me she was honestly missing the heroin junkie manipulative BF and she's decided to give him another chance. I'm sure all the texts, e-mails, and calling helped him. The guy was relentless and I'm sure she blocked his excessiveness when I was around. Anyway, I asked if she had this in mind when she flew to meet me in denver, and she admitted she did but wanted to come anyway.
> 
> I'll be honest. I kicked total a$$ in this relationship and did it all right. I'm a bit hurt. She was really cool, but I guess love is blind? Despite his being a total loser (she even paid for her own engagement ring a few years back), he is in shape and looks like GI Joe. And her with her fake boobs and fake eyelashes I'm guessing looks are everything, even past 40.
> 
> Welcome to dating in your 40's.
> 
> Here's her parting e-mail (a day after we spoke) for those curious in these types of things:
> 
> You didn't do anything wrong. It just came on me like a ton of bricks, that I can not continue having a relationship with you and still have feelings for someone else.
> 
> I would not want someone doing that to me.
> 
> For some reason I have been fighting my self. Maybe confused, unsure of what I want and wanting to move on with you.
> 
> I won't patronize you, but you are a great person and I felt a strong connection with you. But I like I said I just can not continue a relationship with anyone, when my thoughts are with someone else.
> I think this would have turned out differently if we met, at a different time and space. I know it would have! It makes me very very sad. I am going to miss you so so so much. Your the bomb.
> 
> I don't want to rescue Joe, or anyone. I don't have PTSD, and I don't have special powers to make people do things. I would appreciate it that you not label me or put me in some kind of box, labeled "rescuer".
> I don't have coping problems, and I accept my challenges whether they are with someone else or my own.
> 
> I just made a personal decision. I am sorry that you feel I am cold, I just don't want my words to be miss read, I want to be clear. I just think it's better that way.
> 
> I appreciate you as a person and I respect you completely. You deserve the truth, and honesty.
> 
> I wish you the best in life, with love and happiness.
> 
> 
> ------
> 
> Anyway, I have a date tomorrow.


I suspect that she might be correct. She is not a loser she is rather a user.

She needed time out from Captain Junkie and you were chosen as the sap/patsy.

Sorry she turned out that way.

Oh. Sorry to raise this but that protected sex you had? Better get STD tests arranged ASAP. Because even with protected sex there is still a risk of infection.

Maybe make her aware of how she has made it necessary to get checked out?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## eric1

gridcom said:


> Yesterday was the one year anniversary of my D-Day. The singular worst year of my life without question. To celebrate the occasion, the girl I have been dating dumped me and told me she still had feelings for her ex-BF (who suffers from PTSD and got hooked on heroin, has no job, no car, and constantly texts and calls and begs and pleads) and just like that today, BANG picture of the two of them on her FB page.
> 
> 
> 
> The funny thing is we JUST went to Denver this weekend together and had a tremendous time. We saw all the sites, ate at Sams3, went to Red Rocks to see a show, hung out with some of her friends. Had a bunch of sex, no sign of ANY trouble brewing. When I dropped her off on Sunday night, her parting words were "I always have such a good time with you" and honestly it seems innocent but I thought that comment was a bit peculiar. Didnt talk to her on the 4th, minimal contact on the 5th, and on the 6th she called me and told me she was honestly missing the heroin junkie manipulative BF and she's decided to give him another chance. I'm sure all the texts, e-mails, and calling helped him. The guy was relentless and I'm sure she blocked his excessiveness when I was around. Anyway, I asked if she had this in mind when she flew to meet me in denver, and she admitted she did but wanted to come anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll be honest. I kicked total a$$ in this relationship and did it all right. I'm a bit hurt. She was really cool, but I guess love is blind? Despite his being a total loser (she even paid for her own engagement ring a few years back), he is in shape and looks like GI Joe. And her with her fake boobs and fake eyelashes I'm guessing looks are everything, even past 40.
> 
> 
> 
> Welcome to dating in your 40's.
> 
> 
> 
> Here's her parting e-mail (a day after we spoke) for those curious in these types of things:
> 
> 
> 
> You didn't do anything wrong. It just came on me like a ton of bricks, that I can not continue having a relationship with you and still have feelings for someone else.
> 
> 
> 
> I would not want someone doing that to me.
> 
> 
> 
> For some reason I have been fighting my self. Maybe confused, unsure of what I want and wanting to move on with you.
> 
> 
> 
> I won't patronize you, but you are a great person and I felt a strong connection with you. But I like I said I just can not continue a relationship with anyone, when my thoughts are with someone else.
> 
> I think this would have turned out differently if we met, at a different time and space. I know it would have! It makes me very very sad. I am going to miss you so so so much. Your the bomb.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't want to rescue Joe, or anyone. I don't have PTSD, and I don't have special powers to make people do things. I would appreciate it that you not label me or put me in some kind of box, labeled "rescuer".
> 
> I don't have coping problems, and I accept my challenges whether they are with someone else or my own.
> 
> 
> 
> I just made a personal decision. I am sorry that you feel I am cold, I just don't want my words to be miss read, I want to be clear. I just think it's better that way.
> 
> 
> 
> I appreciate you as a person and I respect you completely. You deserve the truth, and honesty.
> 
> 
> 
> I wish you the best in life, with love and happiness.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, I have a date tomorrow.




This is why you date. Also, feelings aren't always tied to things like heroin addition or whatever. Life isn't a spreadsheet. 

It sounds like you guys had a good time and it allowed her to realize that she couldn't move past those feelings.

There were also a lot of red flags with your last post. You yourself said that you were content to just date. It sounds like she wasn't/isn't. When you're really into a girl you act more aggressive to them, for example no contact ANY day for a girl you're into doesn't fly in my experience, even if it's 'I know it's late, just wanted to say I hope you're having a great 4th ' or some such junk.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## gridcom

eric1 said:


> Life isn't a spreadsheet.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Another good one. I don't know. It was intoxicating being with her, I'll be honest. She was very easy to make laugh and go with the flow. Soft spoken. Total difference from my ex, who is still just a raging ball of fury all the time. I wanted to be content with just dating, but I really did like her emotionally I have to admit. I didnt contact her on the 4th because I really was puzzled by her "I always have such a good time with you" comment. I always reached out to her first, and funny enough on the ONE day that I don't, she goes back to the ex BF.

Funny/sad story on my ex. She calls me, raging, because she went to get ice cream with my daughters and she see's a friend of ours who's husband is a friend of mine here in town. This woman and my ex were close before my ex cheated. Not super close, but they hung out just the two of them a few times, went out shopping, threw down a bottle of wine on the porch, etc

Anyway, I guess the woman saw my ex and was polite but generally avoided her. MY ex calls me and says "This is what pisses me off. My friends arent my friends anymore BECAUSE YOU TOLD EVERYBODY WHAT I DID AND NOW THEY DON'T WANT ANYTHING TO DO WITH ME"

I told her, calmly, that some people see cheating as a murdering of the soul, and an indication of low moral character. And they decide perhaps that they dont want to be friends with people of low moral character. I told her I didnt know if this was the case with this woman specifically but I didnt find it funny at all to get a call a year later blaming me for her having to deal with the consequences of her own actions.


----------



## MJJEAN

MattMatt said:


> I suspect that she might be correct. She is not a loser she is rather a user.
> 
> She needed time out from Captain Junkie and you were chosen as the sap/patsy.
> 
> Sorry she turned out that way.
> 
> Oh. Sorry to raise this but that protected sex you had? Better get STD tests arranged ASAP. Because even with protected sex there is still a risk of infection.
> 
> Maybe make her aware of how she has made it necessary to get checked out?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Yes! So many people are unaware that "safe sex" became "saf*er* sex" when the medical community realized that A) condoms are about 84% effective in real world use and B) any disease transmitted by skin to skin contact (genital warts, genital herpes, HPV) can still be transmitted due to how much area the condom doesn't cover. 

And, of course, there is always disease that can be transmitted through oral sex.

Considering junkies aren't known for their good judgement and commitment to health, I'd be worried if I had been physical with a junkie's lover.

@gridcom, MattMatt is absolutely correct. This chick was a user. She isn't getting what she wants from Captain Junky because he's broke and an addict. She wants to go out, have a good time, do things, get a bit of normalcy. But she won't end her relationship with Captain Junky. So, deliberate or not, she's using every man she dates that isn't him.

Which, by the way, says a LOT about her. How messed up is she that she's willing to be romantically involved with an unemployed heroin addict?

And, yeah, I'd send her an email pointing out that addicts tend to engage in risky behavior, have higher rates of STD, that condoms don't protect 100% and that you felt the need to get tested after spending the weekend with her.

And that's the ultra polite version. I edited out words like dirty, nasty, and disgusting.


----------



## ButtPunch

Don't send any emails.

WE (you) saw this coming 

Let her go.


----------



## Evinrude58

gridcom said:


> Another good one. I don't know. It was intoxicating being with her, I'll be honest. She was very easy to make laugh and go with the flow. Soft spoken. Total difference from my ex, who is still just a raging ball of fury all the time. I wanted to be content with just dating, but I really did like her emotionally I have to admit. I didnt contact her on the 4th because I really was puzzled by her "I always have such a good time with you" comment. I always reached out to her first, and funny enough on the ONE day that I don't, she goes back to the ex BF.
> 
> Funny/sad story on my ex. She calls me, raging, because she went to get ice cream with my daughters and she see's a friend of ours who's husband is a friend of mine here in town. This woman and my ex were close before my ex cheated. Not super close, but they hung out just the two of them a few times, went out shopping, threw down a bottle of wine on the porch, etc
> 
> Anyway, I guess the woman saw my ex and was polite but generally avoided her. MY ex calls me and says "This is what pisses me off. My friends arent my friends anymore BECAUSE YOU TOLD EVERYBODY WHAT I DID AND NOW THEY DON'T WANT ANYTHING TO DO WITH ME"
> 
> *I told her, calmly, that some people see cheating as a murdering of the soul, and an indication of low moral character. And they decide perhaps that they dont want to be friends with people of low moral character. I told her I didnt know if this was the case with this woman specifically but I didnt find it funny at all to get a call a year later blaming me for her having to deal wit*h the consequences of her own actions.


I love your response to your ex.

Now about the gf: 
Grid, face it--- just like most people, you'd like to just date right now and not get attached. It doesn't with that way. If you date and really like someone, you want it monogamous. 
My advice: You had numerous red flags with this woman. You've got to be string enough to cut women loose when you see red flags, especially red flags related to character or tendencies to want to be with or check out other men.
I try to practice what I preach--- it's not easy. When I started dating, it was too soon. But because I'd been burnt, I never really put a lot of worry about the women I dated. I suspect you will get over this woman really quickly. You already see how fickle people can be. Remember that. Next one you decide you like, make sure they are equally as taken as you. This woman that "dumped" you (you weren't exclusive as you put it, so I don't really call that dumping) let you know the while time by your actions that you weren't number one on her list. Any woman that is really into you is going to make it very clear, very quickly, that she wants an "exclusive" relationship. 
I'm sure you know all this-I'm just butt-hurt that she hurt you a little and ranting. 
Hoping your next woman is a good lady and that you find one with good character.

As an aside, I think the gf's letter was pretty reasonable, and that she did right not keeping it going with you once she decided she still had feelings for her ex. Myself, I'd have dropped her like a rock when I found out she was texting him or her ex husband..... That's bs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Nucking Futs

gridcom said:


> Another good one. I don't know. It was intoxicating being with her, I'll be honest. She was very easy to make laugh and go with the flow. Soft spoken. Total difference from my ex, who is still just a raging ball of fury all the time. I wanted to be content with just dating, but I really did like her emotionally I have to admit. I didnt contact her on the 4th because I really was puzzled by her "I always have such a good time with you" comment. I always reached out to her first, and funny enough on the ONE day that I don't, she goes back to the ex BF.
> 
> Funny/sad story on my ex. She calls me, raging, because she went to get ice cream with my daughters and she see's a friend of ours who's husband is a friend of mine here in town. This woman and my ex were close before my ex cheated. Not super close, but they hung out just the two of them a few times, went out shopping, threw down a bottle of wine on the porch, etc
> 
> Anyway, I guess the woman saw my ex and was polite but generally avoided her. MY ex calls me and says "This is what pisses me off. My friends arent my friends anymore BECAUSE YOU TOLD EVERYBODY WHAT I DID AND NOW THEY DON'T WANT ANYTHING TO DO WITH ME"
> 
> *I told her, calmly, that some people see cheating as a murdering of the soul, and an indication of low moral character. And they decide perhaps that they dont want to be friends with people of low moral character. I told her I didnt know if this was the case with this woman specifically but I didnt find it funny at all to get a call a year later blaming me for her having to deal with the consequences of her own actions.*


Excellent answer.

And the only reason you have for communicating with hagf is if the std test comes back positive. And you might let the county health department take care of that for you.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

ButtPunch said:


> Don't send any emails.
> 
> WE (you) saw this coming
> 
> Let her go.


This. Grid, there are WAY better women out there!

I do agree that you should step away from dating right now. I feel like you need to get to know yourself a little better and learn to be on your own.


----------



## MJJEAN

Evinrude58 said:


> Myself, I'd have dropped her like a rock when I found out she was texting him or her ex husband..... That's bs.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Same here. I don't date people who are still attached to or in regular personal contact with their ex's, not even casually. I consider that a HUGE red flag.

The purpose behind dating is to select a mate. Anyone who has poor boundaries or who is otherwise already attached shouldn't even be in the running.


----------



## MattMatt

ButtPunch said:


> Don't send any emails.
> 
> WE (you) saw this coming
> 
> Let her go.


Drat. Chrome Flash just trashed my post. So, let's try again. 

She is fooling herself. And you need to make sure you snap her out of it for her own benefit.

I think you should email her. Why? Because at the moment she has deluded herself into seeing herself as some kind romantic heroine.

She imagines she is Catherine Earnshaw, and that Captain Junkie is her very own tortured soul, Heathcliff.

Whilst you are the decent and nice Edgar Linton. https://www.cliffsnotes.com/literature/w/wuthering-heights/book-summary

She has to let you go, don't you see? Because you deserve *so* much more than what she can offer you! Because... her heart belongs to Heathcliff! Sorry! I mean Captain Junkie! :rofl:

Oh, but *oh!* She will sob bitter, bitter tears about what she just *had* to do to you! To set you free, to find your one true love! (Etc...)


__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content


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## just got it 55

As I said Grid Just Have Fun .......... But I should have added.........While it lasts

There is likely to be more of this Protect your emotional well being Choose wisely Bro

55

ETA: as for TS AKA Cougar Robinson The less said / Contact the better


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## ButtPunch

just got it 55 said:


> As I said Grid Just Have Fun .......... But I should have added.........While it lasts
> 
> 
> ETA: as for TS AKA Cougar Robinson The less said / Contact the better


Exactly

Not your circus not your monkeys.


----------



## lifeistooshort

It's sad but I think it's good she was honest. 

So she's not over her ex.....you're clearly not over yours and yet you're dating. 

It's a process. .... you're not good ltr material anyway until you move past the anger at your ex.

It'll happen, just be patient with yourself and others.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## gridcom

lifeistooshort said:


> It's sad but I think it's good she was honest.
> 
> So she's not over her ex.....you're clearly not over yours and yet you're dating.
> 
> It's a process. .... you're not good ltr material anyway until you move past the anger at your ex.
> 
> It'll happen, just be patient with yourself and others.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I was hoping to hear from you. I agree I am not ready, and that blows. It's been a year. It's been a long, long time. Considering all the angst and twists and turns and peaks and valleys, it's been like 7 years. This sh%t is "doggy"


----------



## lifeistooshort

gridcom said:


> I was hoping to hear from you. I agree I am not ready, and that blows. It's been a year. It's been a long, long time. Considering all the angst and twists and turns and peaks and valleys, it's been like 7 years. This sh%t is "doggy"


Glad I can help 

It's been a year, but that's since everything smacked you in the face. You've come from facing your failures to thinking the marriage could be saved to dealing with your ex's attempts to wrest control back by sticking your nose in things to realizing the marriage was over to dealing with your daughters reactions to arguing about settlements to dating other women. 

It's a lot to process.

I know it's a little different but I too tend to be prone to holding onto anger and grudges and what I've found helps is understanding that ultimately everyone has their own demons that have nothing to do with you. The universe just works that way. This is how I look at my csa. The perpetrator had his own demons. 

You own your anger, but how your ex dealt with it has to do with her own demons which have nothing to do with you. 

Let it go. 

I'm of the opinion that the universe is highly ordered, a theory endorsed by Einstein himself, and nothing is truly random. Therefore things happen for reasons you don't always understand. 

I don't know what's behind this but it's time for a new path in your life. My dad used to say that life is a series of adventures and it was important to close the door on the old one so you could begin the new one. Accept that your adventure with your ex is over, learn what you can, wish her well and go on to your next adventure. 

Wishing her well doesn't mean you're friends, it means to accept that she has demons, and walking around po'd hurts you and your kids. 

Not her. It only justifies her decision to dump you. 


Your time in this adventure is over. 

Why she did what she did is for her to figure out as she goes to her next adventure. 
People fvck up in life. .... it's for her to process.

Something far more rewarding could be waiting, but you won't experience it while you walk around po'd.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Vulcan2013

Dating is an audition. She didn't pass. Gf was trying to *settle* for a nice guy, but she *loves* bad boys. With her history, you should have hit the next button immediately. Unless she talked about how she worked to change her unhealthy patterns. Watch for red flags at all times. 

As to junkie looking like gi joe, I find that a little hard to believe. I've known opoid addicts, and they are skinny, but not in any kind of shape. How's your physical appeal? IIRC you were doing DDP yoga. How's your body fat? I think you should dial down dating somewhat and work on shoring up your weak areas. 

You don't need to be an Adonis, just height/weight proportional. Adding some muscle improves it more. If you can get to the point your shoulders are wider than your waist, it's a different world. 

I expect you'll tell me that's impossible in your your 40s. I can't speak to that - I did it in my 50s. Lost 35 lbs by eating low carb consistently - 3 months. Started adding in walking, biking and body weight strength training. Then free weights - I used the Stronglifts 5x5 program. In about six months I got about 80% of the benefits at that point. I'm much stronger years later, but the looks part didn't take that long. 

I'm going to be D very soon, and I don't have any worries about being alone. Still worried about my picker though.


----------



## sokillme

Bibi1031 said:


> It's not his picker. He wasn't planning on marrying this girl.


Well if it was me, a girl with an ex-boyfriend who is a junky still very much in the picture , I would know right away that I should ONLY have fun with a this girl. I would not expect or want to have anything else. Way to much drama and poor decision making from her. 

Frankly any girl who was a long time girlfriend with a junky is not someone I would even consider having a relationship with, unless she cold tell me that she knows that something was wrong with her for staying with him for a long period of time. 

Since he is sad I think he started to emotionally invest in the relationship, that was where his mistake was. Hence he started to pick her. 

Just me though I guess.


----------



## Chuck71

gridcom said:


> Yesterday was the one year anniversary of my D-Day. The singular worst year of my life without question. To celebrate the occasion, the girl I have been dating dumped me and told me she still had feelings for her ex-BF (who suffers from PTSD and got hooked on heroin, has no job, no car, and constantly texts and calls and begs and pleads) and just like that today, BANG picture of the two of them on her FB page.
> 
> The funny thing is we JUST went to Denver this weekend together and had a tremendous time. We saw all the sites, ate at Sams3, went to Red Rocks to see a show, hung out with some of her friends. Had a bunch of sex, no sign of ANY trouble brewing. When I dropped her off on Sunday night, her parting words were "I always have such a good time with you" and honestly it seems innocent but I thought that comment was a bit peculiar. Didnt talk to her on the 4th, minimal contact on the 5th, and on the 6th she called me and told me she was honestly missing the heroin junkie manipulative BF and she's decided to give him another chance. I'm sure all the texts, e-mails, and calling helped him. The guy was relentless and I'm sure she blocked his excessiveness when I was around. Anyway, I asked if she had this in mind when she flew to meet me in denver, and she admitted she did but wanted to come anyway.
> 
> I'll be honest. I kicked total a$$ in this relationship and did it all right. I'm a bit hurt. She was really cool, but I guess love is blind? Despite his being a total loser (she even paid for her own engagement ring a few years back), he is in shape and looks like GI Joe. And her with her fake boobs and fake eyelashes I'm guessing looks are everything, even past 40.
> 
> Welcome to dating in your 40's.
> 
> Here's her parting e-mail (a day after we spoke) for those curious in these types of things:
> 
> You didn't do anything wrong. It just came on me like a ton of bricks, that I can not continue having a relationship with you and still have feelings for someone else.
> 
> I would not want someone doing that to me.
> 
> For some reason I have been fighting my self. Maybe confused, unsure of what I want and wanting to move on with you.
> 
> I won't patronize you, but you are a great person and I felt a strong connection with you. But I like I said I just can not continue a relationship with anyone, when my thoughts are with someone else.
> I think this would have turned out differently if we met, at a different time and space. I know it would have! It makes me very very sad. I am going to miss you so so so much. Your the bomb.
> 
> I don't want to rescue Joe, or anyone. I don't have PTSD, and I don't have special powers to make people do things. I would appreciate it that you not label me or put me in some kind of box, labeled "rescuer".
> I don't have coping problems, and I accept my challenges whether they are with someone else or my own.
> 
> I just made a personal decision. I am sorry that you feel I am cold, I just don't want my words to be miss read, I want to be clear. I just think it's better that way.
> 
> I appreciate you as a person and I respect you completely. You deserve the truth, and honesty.
> 
> I wish you the best in life, with love and happiness.
> 
> 
> ------
> 
> Anyway, I have a date tomorrow.



The heroin addict is not your problem.... he is "former new gal's problem"

And former new gal is now... not your problem. She said it's over.... lock the door, burn the key.

No reply needed. Former new gal self-sabotaged the relationship because she felt as if 

she did not deserve to be in a healthy one.

Some people (both genders) travel their whole lives bouncing from one failed LTR to another... they 

just don't know what a good one is. When they find a good one, it is so foreign to them...

they get scared and blow it up.

So she wants to Florence Nightingale her ex.... in other words, rescue. Who is going to rescue her

when he drains her dry? Hopefully Grid's rescuing days are over. 

She wanted a nice fling before she went back in the trenches with the drug abuser. You were her

fling. You have to admit though... you did have a great time! And I hope you are light years away from

wanting to get serious with any one. 

The dating scene...... you will see four groups. See Decimated's "Needle in a Haystack" 

thread for more detail.

Date with NO expectations....


----------



## Chuck71

As Mike Thomas and LTSs dad would say.... "You can never start the next chapter of your journey,

if you keep going back and re-reading the previous chapter."


----------



## MJJEAN

lifeistooshort said:


> It's a process. .... you're not good ltr material anyway until you move past the anger at your ex
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't know. I'm 16 years into my 2nd marriage and I STILL want to garrote my ex on a good day. And I haven't had contact with him on any kind of regular basis. Maybe 5 conversations about the kids since the divorce.

I don't think everybody has to let go of their anger toward their ex to move on. Some of us just hold a grudge for piss poor behavior.

I also don't think current theories on love and hate make any sense.

I've heard "The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference." No. Not for me. The opposite of love is hate. Indifference doesn't register because I'm indifferent!

I've also heard variations of "You can't hate someone you don't/didn't love." So not true! I have passionately hated people I am quite positive I have never loved in any way.


----------



## lifeistooshort

MJJEAN said:


> I don't know. I'm 16 years into my 2nd marriage and I STILL want to garrote my ex on a good day. And I haven't had contact with him on any kind of regular basis. Maybe 5 conversations about the kids since the divorce.
> 
> I don't think everybody has to let go of their anger toward their ex to move on. Some of us just hold a grudge for piss poor behavior.
> 
> I also don't think current theories on love and hate make any sense.
> 
> I've heard "The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference." No. Not for me. The opposite of love is hate. Indifference doesn't register because I'm indifferent!
> 
> I've also heard variations of "You can't hate someone you don't/didn't love." So not true! I have passionately hated people I am quite positive I have never loved in any way.



Different philosophies I guess.

My ex was a huge d!ck, but while I can still trash him I really don't have any more anger towards him. ....i understand that he gave what he has to give. 

He's not evil, just self centered and emotionally stunted. Plus he thinks women are beneath him. 

I know I am much more able to be all into my marriage emotionally because I'm past the anger, and I think Grid will be a better partner once he's past his. 

But everyone is different.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## gridcom

sokillme said:


> Well if it was me, a girl with an ex-boyfriend who is a junky still very much in the picture , I would know right away that I should ONLY have fun with a this girl. I would not expect or want to have anything else. Way to much drama and poor decision making from her.
> 
> Frankly any girl who was a long time girlfriend with a junky is not someone I would even consider having a relationship with, unless she cold tell me that she knows that something was wrong with her for staying with him for a long period of time.
> 
> Since he is sad I think he started to emotionally invest in the relationship, that was where his mistake was. Hence he started to pick her.
> 
> Just me though I guess.


You nailed it


----------



## gridcom

Chuck71 said:


> The heroin addict is not your problem.... he is "former new gal's problem"
> 
> And former new gal is now... not your problem. She said it's over.... lock the door, burn the key.
> 
> No reply needed. Former new gal self-sabotaged the relationship because she felt as if
> 
> she did not deserve to be in a healthy one.
> 
> Some people (both genders) travel their whole lives bouncing from one failed LTR to another... they
> 
> just don't know what a good one is. When they find a good one, it is so foreign to them...
> 
> they get scared and blow it up.
> 
> So she wants to Florence Nightingale her ex.... in other words, rescue. Who is going to rescue her
> 
> when he drains her dry? Hopefully Grid's rescuing days are over.
> 
> She wanted a nice fling before she went back in the trenches with the drug abuser. You were her
> 
> fling. You have to admit though... you did have a great time! And I hope you are light years away from
> 
> wanting to get serious with any one.
> 
> The dating scene...... you will see four groups. See Decimated's "Needle in a Haystack"
> 
> thread for more detail.
> 
> Date with NO expectations....


Definitely had a great time. I can't recall a funner, more intense, 3 months in my entire life. I'll take the crappy ending. It was worth it. I will absolutely not be reaching out to her. I am, however, terrified of what happens if she eventually reaches out to me.


----------



## syhoybenden

Should that happen, give her nothing but dead air.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

You know what they say right? Nature abhors a vacuum. Your wife's affair, the self blame, the work to save the marriage and stress left an emotional vacuum in your life. Instead of filling ti with other activities until you healed, you found another woman. It's okay, you were not ready, but you had some fun and it most likely helped your bruised ego. This time sit back, relax, take care of your kids, make your business grow and heal. Also, when you are over the hurt you'll see the signs. You were having fun and treat it as such.


----------



## Chuck71

gridcom said:


> Definitely had a great time. I can't recall a funner, more intense, 3 months in my entire life. I'll take the crappy ending. It was worth it. I will absolutely not be reaching out to her. I am, however, terrified of what happens if she eventually reaches out to me.


She gave you what your STBXW did not.... did not for years. You ate it up. Same thing I did with 

UG, post-D g/f. You were on a high.... she gave you attention, compassion, sex... pretty much what 

Tomato Soup withheld from you for years. Not every relationship is built to last.... some come 

along solely intending to just be temporary. For me... there was a certain girl right after my first 

break-up with 1st and 2nd love. Those two girls.... are the ones I reflect on thinking "was that the one

that got away." But they were solely meant to let me know.... there is a life out there without your 

"love of a lifetime." Yet sometimes I wonder what could have been (writer's job).

The girls I dated between 1st and 2nd and 2nd and XW were transitions... you knew going in they weren't

meant to last. You weren't ready, maybe she wasn't either.... you just live in that moment.

Yes you may recall "what might have been" with her but more with a touch of nostalgia.

My transition loves had a spark but not that spark that lasts for years.

It's a learning experience.... more baggage with women in their mid-30s to mid-40s but a lot less

games and BS. Reason I dated them in my early 20s... I do not do games n BS.... I don't care if the 

prize is gold-plated. 

Find what you are.....who you are.... who you prefer, not just for short term but long term.

Short term... you get your feet wet.... long term you dive in with. Wade in the water for awhile.

I never "dated" a female in her 20s (2nd love was but was teen when we met) until now.....

She will be 24 soon.... 20 years younger. Wish me luck LOL


----------



## Truthseeker1

gridcom said:


> *I am, however, terrified of what happens if she eventually reaches out to me*.


Nothing - cut her off for good IMO - if she does email or call or text - delete them and don't answer them - its been a fun 3 months and it gave you a glimpse of what life* could* be like post divorce - nothing more...I get the feeling this one will be going round and round with the junkie until he ODs or she gets her head straight - either way that is her load to carry *not* yours...good luck


----------



## Ms. GP

Sorry Grid. I had a bad feeling about that one. I think dating is like trying on shoes. That pair didn't fit. Oh well, it's not your foot or the shoe's fault. Just not a good fit.

On a lighter note, this reminds me of a good rehab story. One of the counselors caught a couple of the single girls flirting with some of the boys and she says, "Let me make this perfectly clear so nobody misunderstands me ladies. MISTER RIGHT IS NOT IN THE MED LINE!!!" She will figure this out soon enough. Her loss.


----------



## Archangel2

MJJEAN said:


> Yes! So many people are unaware that "safe sex" became "saf*er* sex" when the medical community realized that A) condoms are about 84% effective in real world use and B) any disease transmitted by skin to skin contact (genital warts, genital herpes, HPV) can still be transmitted due to how much area the condom doesn't cover.
> 
> And, of course, there is always disease that can be transmitted through oral sex.
> 
> Considering junkies aren't known for their good judgement and commitment to health, I'd be worried if I had been physical with a junkie's lover.
> 
> @gridcom, MattMatt is absolutely correct. This chick was a user. She isn't getting what she wants from Captain Junky because he's broke and an addict. She wants to go out, have a good time, do things, get a bit of normalcy. But she won't end her relationship with Captain Junky. So, deliberate or not, she's using every man she dates that isn't him.
> 
> Which, by the way, says a LOT about her. How messed up is she that she's willing to be romantically involved with an unemployed heroin addict?
> 
> And, yeah, I'd send her an email pointing out that addicts tend to engage in risky behavior, have higher rates of STD, that condoms don't protect 100% and that you felt the need to get tested after spending the weekend with her...


:iagree:
Kinda makes you want to get on your knees someday and thank God you avoided this potential disaster.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

gridcom said:


> Definitely had a great time. I can't recall a funner, more intense, 3 months in my entire life. I'll take the crappy ending. It was worth it. I will absolutely not be reaching out to her. I am, however, terrified of what happens if she eventually reaches out to me.


No reason to be terrified of that grid, because you already know how you will respond....right? 

Go dark on her. She's in your past now.

I think you're doing fine. You know you've got game, and other women will be attracted to you.

Date many women right now. Don't latch on to just one. Keep things light and fun. Keep working on yourself, and being the best dad you can be.

Life will only get better.


----------



## Ms. GP

Did you really think the first girl you dated post divorce would be "the one"? I'm guessing not. You can't unsee the red flags now. She probably will reach out to you when this blows up in your face. (And trust me it will) Unless she has done some major work on her self, let her go. You can tell by the time table. If it is several months or longer post break up with rehab dude, you might have a shot. I've come to the conclusion that crazy people can't be alone. They have overlapping relationships or in close sequence.


----------



## gridcom

How do I make this thread by invite only, please?


----------



## just got it 55

gridcom said:


> how do i make this thread by invite only, please?


why ?

55


----------



## gridcom

just got it 55 said:


> why ?
> 
> 55


because I think that my ex is on here.


----------



## just got it 55

gridcom said:


> because I think that my ex is on here.


I don't think there is anything here she can use against 

DO you ?

55


----------



## gridcom

just got it 55 said:


> I don't think there is anything here she can use against
> 
> DO you ?
> 
> 55


No, but I don't want her to know my business. So a bunch of us are OUT of here


----------



## just got it 55

gridcom said:


> No, but I don't want her to know my business. So a bunch of us are OUT of here


Look forward to your invite

55


----------



## 225985

gridcom said:


> How do I make this thread by invite only, please?


PM a mod and ask. Elegirl is always here. If you cannot move the thread you at least can create a Social Group yourself (give it a code name) and invite only those you want to post there. It would be a separate thread, but ultra private. 

The social group can have many threads created so others in your circle will be able to create threads there but you will be the controller of all the invites to that group. Or you can keep it as a single thread group. I participate in one when high privacy was needed. 

Some info at this link

Talk About Marriage - FAQ: User Profile Features

Good luck.


----------



## barbados

nucking futs said:


> i wouldn't bother to reply to this email, or any other communication attempt she may make. Go on that date tomorrow and don't give another thought to this one. She's not the one that got away, she's a bullet you dodged.


this ^^^ qft.


----------



## manfromlamancha

just got it 55 said:


> Look forward to your invite
> 
> 88


Me too


----------



## Pluto2

ah, the petty vindictive gnashing of divorce. Sorry you have to deal with that, too.


----------



## MattMatt

An invite would be welcome. Please.


----------



## Vulcan2013

MattMatt said:


> An invite would be welcome. Please.


Ditto


----------



## MattMatt

Any update on the super private idea? 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

I heard Grid linked up with ReGroup..... what a @%%^^$#@ party that will be!


----------



## gridcom

Hi All-

I am still here. I went to the moderators here and asked if there was another account with a similar IP address as mine and also if if either of my ex's e-mail addresses were being used for the site and it was confirmed that neither was the case. Regardless, ex has slipped up that she knows more about my situation than she should. Either that, or she is playing mind games, which is not very good at anyway.

In other news, last GF with heroin ex BF.....I've left her completely alone but today her ex BF tries to FRIEND ME ON FACEBOOK. What in the world?????
They are officially back together (at least on Facebook) Yes, I've been trolling a bit. Not sure why or what this new friend request surprise is all about

Who needs this drama?


----------



## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> Hi All-
> 
> I am still here. I went to the moderators here and asked if there was another account with a similar IP address as mine and also if if either of my ex's e-mail addresses were being used for the site and it was confirmed that neither was the case. Regardless, ex has slipped up that she knows more about my situation than she should. Either that, or she is playing mind games, which is not very good at anyway.
> 
> In other news, last GF with heroin ex BF.....I've left her completely alone but today her ex BF tries to FRIEND ME ON FACEBOOK. What in the world?????
> They are officially back together (at least on Facebook) Yes, I've been trolling a bit. Not sure why or what this new friend request surprise is all about
> 
> Who needs this drama?


No thanks to that request. Disappear.


----------



## Chuck71

gridcom said:


> Hi All-
> 
> I am still here. I went to the moderators here and asked if there was another account with a similar IP address as mine and also if if either of my ex's e-mail addresses were being used for the site and it was confirmed that neither was the case. Regardless, ex has slipped up that she knows more about my situation than she should. Either that, or she is playing mind games, which is not very good at anyway.
> 
> In other news, last GF with heroin ex BF.....I've left her completely alone but today her ex BF tries to FRIEND ME ON FACEBOOK. What in the world?????
> They are officially back together (at least on Facebook) Yes, I've been trolling a bit. Not sure why or what this new friend request surprise is all about
> 
> Who needs this drama?


So TS knows more than you thought..... WGAF. Her emotions are NO concern to you.

It's awfully amusing when a WS finds out the BS is dating. They're offended that the BS could do that LOL

Block "Heroin Head" and his returning sweet thang. This situation just wreaks of trouble.

If Heroin Head is jealous.... he may be sizing you up. Don't put it past your ex gf to spill the beans

on you and her's "sexual activities."

BLOCK HIM and HER. Not just FB but emails, everything.


----------



## gridcom

Happy Friday everybody. I have gone onto another dating site. This one is called OK Cupid. I'm sure some of you are familiar. This one is quite fascinating, mainly because they have a series of questions (like thousands) that they ask, and depending on your answer, they "match" you with other people. Here are some of the questions they ask, that people actually answer (including 3rd grade teachers, etc)

Deep breath....

Receiving anal sex?

I like it / I think I might like itI don't like it / I don't think I would like it

---
Under the right circumstances, would you allow a partner to lick your anus?

Yes.No.

---

Would you consider performing anilingus on a partner who asked you to?

Yes.No.

---

If you were performing oral sex on a partner who accidentally farted, how do you think you would react?

I'd laugh.I'd be disgustedI'd think nothing of it.Oral sex? I don't think so.

---

Would you consider role-playing a rape fantasy if your partner asked you to?

YesNo

---

How does the idea of being slapped hard in the face during sex make you feel?

HorrifiedArousedNostalgicIndifferent

---

Imagine that you come home to find a partner pouring red wine all over a stranger's naked body and then licking it off. Which, if any of the following, would bother you most?

The spilled wine.The cheating.The fact that I was not invited to join in.Actually, this would not bother me.

---

Suppose you're dating someone who seems to have long-term potential. You discover that they want to urinate on you during sex. Would you consider staying with this person?

Yes.No.

---

So, what have I learned. Well, that girls are way more freaky than I thought. And also, they have a question where they ask how long would you like your next relationship to last. You'd be surprised (or maybe you wouldnt) how many women say "A few years" as in, "my next relationship has a shelf life. it'll probably end badly or I'll get bored, and onto the next one"

Maybe it's just me, but I dont get it


----------



## MJJEAN

@gridcom, what's not to get? 

******* seems to realize that sexual compatibility is important. Those are questions a lot of people would like to ask, but are too shy, ashamed, or afraid to ask.

A lot of women are "freaks", true, but a lot of them are liars, too. Especially on the freakin internet looking for romance. Some will downplay their freak, some will pretend to more freakdom than they have ever enjoyed. Some of them will claim they don't want a long term thing in order not to scare off potential dates while others pretend to want a long term thing in order to avoid looking promiscuous.

Good luck sorting out the truth from the fiction.


----------



## ButtPunch

Do you like it in the butt or not.

Sounds easy to me.


----------



## Sammy64

MJJEAN said:


> @gridcom, what's not to get?
> 
> ******* seems to realize that sexual compatibility is important. Those are questions a lot of people would like to ask, but are too shy, ashamed, or afraid to ask.
> 
> A lot of women are "freaks", true, but a lot of them are liars, too. Especially on the freakin internet looking for romance. Some will downplay their freak, some will pretend to more freakdom than they have ever enjoyed. Some of them will claim they don't want a long term thing in order not to scare off potential dates while others pretend to want a long term thing in order to avoid looking promiscuous.
> 
> *Good luck sorting out the truth from the fiction*.


:iagree: I have found some REAL Jem's on OKC


----------



## turnera

IDK, my DD25 was using ******* when she went away to college, and she was a virgin til she was 21. And the first guy she met on *******, she wouldn't meet him in person until she was sure he was safe, four months later. So it's not only 'that kind' of people on there.

You just have to have high standards and filter a lot.


----------



## Marc878

Damn!!!!!


----------



## TX-SC

Dang! I almost want to get on OK Cupid just to answer the questions!  My wife would not approve.


----------



## ReturntoZero

ButtPunch said:


> Do you like it in the butt or not.
> 
> Sounds easy to me.


Just don't punch me.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

The questions are actually a great idea regardless of how you answer them because it provides a safe way to bring up potentially offensive issues (depending on perspective and sensibilities) in a safe way (as in "were you as surprised by the question about xyz as I was?"). I think starting the dialog is 80% of the work 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Chuck71

Schit floats but not upstream, for further comments, view Mr. Pack's thread about OKC


----------



## Chuck71

gridcom said:


> Happy Friday everybody. I have gone onto another dating site. This one is called OK Cupid. I'm sure some of you are familiar. This one is quite fascinating, mainly because they have a series of questions (like thousands) that they ask, and depending on your answer, they "match" you with other people. Here are some of the questions they ask, that people actually answer (including 3rd grade teachers, etc)
> 
> Deep breath....
> 
> Receiving anal sex?
> 
> I like it / I think I might like itI don't like it / I don't think I would like it
> 
> ---
> Under the right circumstances, would you allow a partner to lick your anus?
> 
> Yes.No.
> 
> ---
> 
> Would you consider performing anilingus on a partner who asked you to?
> 
> Yes.No.
> 
> ---
> 
> If you were performing oral sex on a partner who accidentally farted, how do you think you would react?
> 
> I'd laugh.I'd be disgustedI'd think nothing of it.Oral sex? I don't think so.
> 
> ---
> 
> Would you consider role-playing a rape fantasy if your partner asked you to?
> 
> YesNo
> 
> ---
> 
> How does the idea of being slapped hard in the face during sex make you feel?
> 
> HorrifiedArousedNostalgicIndifferent
> 
> ---
> 
> Imagine that you come home to find a partner pouring red wine all over a stranger's naked body and then licking it off. Which, if any of the following, would bother you most?
> 
> The spilled wine.The cheating.The fact that I was not invited to join in.Actually, this would not bother me.
> 
> ---
> 
> Suppose you're dating someone who seems to have long-term potential. You discover that they want to urinate on you during sex. Would you consider staying with this person?
> 
> Yes.No.
> 
> ---
> 
> So, what have I learned. Well, that girls are way more freaky than I thought. And also, they have a question where they ask how long would you like your next relationship to last. You'd be surprised (or maybe you wouldnt) how many women say "A few years" as in, "my next relationship has a shelf life. it'll probably end badly or I'll get bored, and onto the next one"
> 
> Maybe it's just me, but I dont get it



Here is what you get on OKC.........


What I’m doing with my life 

im working a few jobs while attending school for nursing to support myself and my little sister since our parents passed. Weekdays when not in class, I work at starbucks. Weeknights I'm either stripping for pay or home doing private cam shows for pay. If you're into that and wanna help a girl out, get at me on sc ipe at ponieswithstars (yes I can prove i'm real first lol.. but please don't add it if you aren't in a position to help.. we can talk here). And on weekends I bartend alternating between a restaurant and a lounge. So yeah.. not TOO busy lol. 


Handle........ 
betweencreations 

C4 UR self


----------



## gridcom

amazing


----------



## LosingHim

I have two cousins who are currently in LTR’s from meeting on dating sites. One is in a 2 year relationship and one just got married after a year of dating.

I am very curious as to how they all answered the butt questions. Because if my cousins answered positively to the butt questions, I can also assume their boyfriend/husband also answered affirmative to the butt questions! I wonder if they discussed the butt questions….

I don’t think it’s fair that they get to know about this stuff beforehand though. They should have to try to touch the butt like the rest of us and get swatted away while seeing the look of sheer terror on our partners faces.......


----------



## manfromlamancha

LosingHim said:


> I have two cousins who are currently in LTR’s from meeting on dating sites. One is in a 2 year relationship and one just got married after a year of dating.
> 
> I am very curious as to how they all answered the butt questions. Because if my cousins answered positively to the butt questions, I can also assume their boyfriend/husband also answered affirmative to the butt questions! I wonder if they discussed the butt questions….
> 
> I don’t think it’s fair that they get to know about this stuff beforehand though. They should have to try to touch the butt like the rest of us and get swatted away while seeing the look of sheer terror on our partners faces.......


tsk tsk - i knew there was a cruel streak there somewhere!n


----------



## aine

gridcom said:


> Thanks all, I guess. I'll be honest I am shocked by these responses, and perhaps in denial. I need you all to know that I have done some crummy things, mainly being a self absorbed jerk. Just jerky things. Being a ****, basically. She has warned me that she was at the end of her rope MANY times, but I was in denial about that until this week. The end of her rope comments, the occasional "we're done" comments, would always be at the end of a fight. We are both Italian and raised Italian and to me, you fight, you get it out, and it's over. Again, I've done some ****ty things. We fought in March and it was a bad one (over total nonsense, but we're both pretty stubborn) and my reaction was to tell her I was going to see a lawyer when I never went and saw a lawyer. Shameful petty ****. See? I told you this isnt all on her. I know I am coming down hard on myself, and at my core I am a good, caring guy. I'm emotional and have great care and, again in my defense, am a terrific husband in many ways. Certainly a terrific father.
> 
> 
> Now, the cut is deep and my reaction to it has been exactly what you all have told me not to do. Unbelieveable regret and yearning to "make it up to her", to head dive into therapy to fix whatever it is inside me that not only makes me a ****, but why I cant see it while it's happening. In many ways, I am a very introverted person when it comes to these matters. I am weirdly emotional and thus I try and hide my flaws from others (as I have known they exist but never sought out why). I feel like I want to tell our loved ones that I am the one who is flawed and ask them for guidance and encouragment and to root for me while I get to the bottom of it and become the husband that she has wanted me to be.
> 
> And I am reading that I need to go to a lawyer and beat her to the punch and get tested for STD's and all this and that, and as you can imagine my reaction is simply "No! we can overcome this!" Our children, our two amazing daughters, would be devastated beyond belief. Even if it was her straw that broke the camels back, they'd never forgive me, because, say what you will, I 100% feel at fault. I took her for granted and now I got burned
> 
> You need to know that
> 
> I dont think the man in question is married, but I'd imagine he's younger. I dont know anything about him and dont want to know. I just want him to go away.
> 
> Thank you all. It feels good just to write. I am a mess right now.


Your reaction is normal, the begging the pleading etc but if you want to win her back that will not work. You have probably hurt her deeply and while she has told you over and over again to change, you took her for granted. Women have a high capacity to take **** but when they reach the end of their tether, it often really is the end, the only thing standing in her way is her children.

The advice you have gotten here may seem totally counter intuitive but it better than the alternative by far, ignore it at your peril.


----------



## gridcom

aine said:


> Your reaction is normal, the begging the pleading etc but if you want to win her back that will not work. You have probably hurt her deeply and while she has told you over and over again to change, you took her for granted. Women have a high capacity to take **** but when they reach the end of their tether, it often really is the end, the only thing standing in her way is her children.
> 
> The advice you have gotten here may seem totally counter intuitive but it better than the alternative by far, ignore it at your peril.


Yeah, too late for that.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

gridcom said:


> Yeah, too late for that.




Ha ha I'm sorry but that's kind of funny at this point, right? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hope4family

gridcom said:


> amazing


Gridcom.

I signed up on ******* in Jan. Found someone, were still dating thus far. 

Even starting to grow attached. Answer honestly and truthfully. Someday you will both get a laugh over what other peoples answers were and the fact they asked those questions to begin with.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

gridcom said:


> Yeah, too late for that.


LOL. You have to remember some people do start at the beginning, will see something and just post.


----------



## gridcom

hope4family said:


> Gridcom.
> 
> I signed up on ******* in Jan. Found someone, were still dating thus far.
> 
> Even starting to grow attached. Answer honestly and truthfully. Someday you will both get a laugh over what other peoples answers were and the fact they asked those questions to begin with.


OK, I can tell you all, without question...the world of internet dating (or dating in your 40's) is absolutely banana's. I am having experiences that I never thought I would have, nor should I ever really be having :wink2: at this point in my life. In an alternate reality, I am taking the wife and kids to Six Flags or something. In this reality, however, I am walking out on woman at their home because, in addition to being completely over the top aggressive, they want to hurt me. Like "literally" physically hurt me while engaging in foreplay. 

I just left a scene on Sunday night where my final words walking out the door were "You're a lunatic"" and the response was "Where are you going? You're LEAVING?"

Yeah, if you keep PUNCHING me in the NUTS!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes, I am leaving.

Holy mother of....So, far, this month alone since I ended it with that other woman, I've had a date look NOTHING like her pics, another date look NOTHING like her pictures, a teacher who literally sat there and said nothing, a woman cancel on me at the last minute because her mother "went into cardiac arrest" (havent heard from her since) , a woman who had a tick where she blinked like 400X a minute, and a woman who wanted to punch me and bite me while making out


Yep.


----------



## farsidejunky

:rofl:

Make a movie, Grid.

It sounds like a hell of a script for a comedy.


----------



## gridcom

farsidejunky said:


> :rofl:
> 
> Make a movie, Grid.
> 
> It sounds like a hell of a script for a comedy.



New Ok Cupid question

Suppose you meet someone and they are perfect in every way, except they blink 400X a minute. 

A) Doesnt bother me
B) You should get that looked at
C) Run for the hills
D) Let me lick your eyelids


----------



## farsidejunky

Lmao!!!

D. Definitely D.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Seriously Grid...STOP DATING. You have a lot to move past and deal with, and this is one fiasco after another. Stop, step back, and focus on yourself for a while.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

gridcom said:


> New Ok Cupid question
> 
> Suppose you meet someone and they are perfect in every way, except they blink 400X a minute.
> 
> A) Doesnt bother me
> B) You should get that looked at
> C) Run for the hills
> D) Let me lick your eyelids


Does she eat her peas one at a time?


----------



## lifeistooshort

ThreeStrikes said:


> Does she eat her peas one at a time?


Hey, I eat my peas one at a time. 

What are you implying?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## gridcom

3Xnocharm said:


> Seriously Grid...STOP DATING. You have a lot to move past and deal with, and this is one fiasco after another. Stop, step back, and focus on yourself for a while.


Maybe someday I will look back and say you were right, but right now I have to say you are wrong here. Why should I sit in the penalty box? I am emotionally over my ex. I am actually more hung up on that last woman, truth be told. I NEVER had a dating life, ever. i went from High School girlfriend, to a few floozies in my early 20's, right into a 20 year commitment. I have had sex with less than 10 women in my entire life, and that includes the two new ones from the last few months. 

I get very little free time, but when I have it I am wanting to spend that time on meeting woman and finding that connection. It's better than PS4!


----------



## Chuck71

gridcom said:


> OK, I can tell you all, without question...the world of internet dating (or dating in your 40's) is absolutely banana's. I am having experiences that I never thought I would have, nor should I ever really be having :wink2: at this point in my life. In an alternate reality, I am taking the wife and kids to Six Flags or something. In this reality, however, I am walking out on woman at their home because, in addition to being completely over the top aggressive, they want to hurt me. Like "literally" physically hurt me while engaging in foreplay.
> 
> I just left a scene on Sunday night where my final words walking out the door were "You're a lunatic"" and the response was "Where are you going? You're LEAVING?"
> 
> Yeah, if you keep PUNCHING me in the NUTS!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes, I am leaving.
> 
> Holy mother of....So, far, this month alone since I ended it with that other woman, I've had a date look NOTHING like her pics, another date look NOTHING like her pictures, a teacher who literally sat there and said nothing, a woman cancel on me at the last minute because her mother "went into cardiac arrest" (havent heard from her since) , a woman who had a tick where she blinked like 400X a minute, and a woman who wanted to punch me and bite me while making out
> 
> 
> Yep.


Want my "Date to Remember" tow truck driver gal who came down from the mountains to "fetch her a man" number?"


----------



## Chuck71

gridcom said:


> New Ok Cupid question
> 
> Suppose you meet someone and they are perfect in every way, except they blink 400X a minute.
> 
> A) Doesnt bother me
> B) You should get that looked at
> C) Run for the hills
> D) Let me lick your eyelids


Pulled from Mr. Pack's thread

About OLD sites.........

Too many people consider "dating -just- on-line" as dating. "Oh we've been together a month, we text all day!" Seriously.... I'm way too old school for that crap. Minus the major OLD sites.... ones such as FarmersDating, HorndogDating, etc.... they offer free everything...until you sign-up. You can send messages, wink, flirt, whatever.... BUT gosh darn it, you have to pay $xx a month to read received emails. This is done to boost numbers / subscribers to lure more people to pay up thinking there are 54,248 in your area (even if you live in rural Wyoming LOL). The big name ones are just about as bad.

******* is free and you can upgrade for extra features. I would receive views and messages from girls in Malaysia, Philippines, and Brazil often. Random messages from Washington, Nevada, California (I am 125 miles north of Atlanta)... wanting to get to know me...... WHY? OKC has a new app where someone really does not have to fill out a profile outside of gender and age. The pics.... if they're very attractive and have only one pic....RED FLAG. If they are local, attractive, 6-7 pics.... nice.... just watch out, some are attention wh#res and want nothing to do with meeting, just ego boost. But this is free.... why not... just proceed with caution.

POF..... on one hand... you meet the dregs of society. On the other.... very little BS like OKC and it's free with certain upgrades. And it is a good place to meet FWB, if that's your deal. You rarely get people halfway across the planet or county messaging you. You will get many from 100-250 miles away...POFs mileage radius is really slanted. I can type in 75 mile radius and still get people from cities well south of Atlanta. You will meet weird people, deranged people, and delusional.... but they will be local LOL! This site is the worst about window shopping, never reading your profile. If they like your pic.... message. 

When I was first on POF the 2nd time in late 2014.... I was 42, want kids, PhD candidate, author. 50% of my messages were from 45-55, kids, doesn't want kids (DUH), have four kids already, high school education, janitor/cook/housekeeping/factory, hates reading. Just not a match for me..... not to mention when they have more tats than Dennis Rodman. Or fishing lures or cattle prods in their nose..... I used to be polite and always respond to every message if they sent first. That lasted maybe four months. Again.... it's free, just be cautious.

Match.... ahhhh the cream of the crop! Bullchip.... I would get messages from people, after they winked and favorite'd me.... from an obscure place about 150 miles away.... one pic.... gorgeous.... get the picture? They state they can not receive messages on Match (hello, to wink, fav, message you must be paying member) and give you an email address. Ignore those..... I did it once just to see.... severely inept English, yet live near you! They will disable their profile from your viewing within a few hours if you totally ignore them. Match has an IM function... I'm a night owl.... that is when they strike. You get "What name do you go by?" Dead giveaway.... after awhile I messed with them.... "I am Chuck IV of Lancaster." You will get messages from a nearby city (when you suspect one.... fav them.... you will notice their city of residence change quickly, nearer yours).

They will search a city within 25 miles of you...... They ask if you like long distance relationships..... because they are a nurse in a third world country for the next six to twelve months. "Why did you put xxxx as your city of residence?" "I went to a birthday party there once." LOL I'm serious....Then they ask when they can see you "When you return to the States and are passing through north Georgia, take care." If you want to have fun... ask what country they are in...... "What's the capital.... Who is President / dictator / ruler, or What country are you in conflict with...." They either leave you alone or change the subject.

Match has the most BS con of any.... when your membership runs out, you suddenly get dozens of winks, fav's, daily picks that some woman likes you....... but gosh golly darn..... you have to sign back up to read them! You may get 5 winks and 5 fav's a month from legit people..... now that you are a non-member.... you get at least than every week, if not more.

You can meet someone worthwhile on any of the three OLD sites.... but 95% are cons, flakes, BSers, someone you would never match with, or just wondering what the world is like when they stop taking their meds.


----------



## gridcom

Chuck71 said:


> Want my "Date to Remember" tow truck driver gal who came down from the mountains to "fetch her a man" number?"


Seriously, I am still feeling it and it's Tuesday. Not cool. Brooklyn indie hipsters with mid life crisis'. If they live in Brooklyn, are in their 40's, have no kids, and were never married, beware.


----------



## gridcom

Chuck71 said:


> Pulled from Mr. Pack's thread
> 
> About OLD sites.........
> 
> Too many people consider "dating -just- on-line" as dating. "Oh we've been together a month, we text all day!" Seriously.... I'm way too old school for that crap. Minus the major OLD sites.... ones such as FarmersDating, HorndogDating, etc.... they offer free everything...until you sign-up. You can send messages, wink, flirt, whatever.... BUT gosh darn it, you have to pay $xx a month to read received emails. This is done to boost numbers / subscribers to lure more people to pay up thinking there are 54,248 in your area (even if you live in rural Wyoming LOL). The big name ones are just about as bad.
> 
> ******* is free and you can upgrade for extra features. I would receive views and messages from girls in Malaysia, Philippines, and Brazil often. Random messages from Washington, Nevada, California (I am 125 miles north of Atlanta)... wanting to get to know me...... WHY? OKC has a new app where someone really does not have to fill out a profile outside of gender and age. The pics.... if they're very attractive and have only one pic....RED FLAG. If they are local, attractive, 6-7 pics.... nice.... just watch out, some are attention wh#res and want nothing to do with meeting, just ego boost. But this is free.... why not... just proceed with caution.
> 
> POF..... on one hand... you meet the dregs of society. On the other.... very little BS like OKC and it's free with certain upgrades. And it is a good place to meet FWB, if that's your deal. You rarely get people halfway across the planet or county messaging you. You will get many from 100-250 miles away...POFs mileage radius is really slanted. I can type in 75 mile radius and still get people from cities well south of Atlanta. You will meet weird people, deranged people, and delusional.... but they will be local LOL! This site is the worst about window shopping, never reading your profile. If they like your pic.... message.
> 
> When I was first on POF the 2nd time in late 2014.... I was 42, want kids, PhD candidate, author. 50% of my messages were from 45-55, kids, doesn't want kids (DUH), have four kids already, high school education, janitor/cook/housekeeping/factory, hates reading. Just not a match for me..... not to mention when they have more tats than Dennis Rodman. Or fishing lures or cattle prods in their nose..... I used to be polite and always respond to every message if they sent first. That lasted maybe four months. Again.... it's free, just be cautious.
> 
> Match.... ahhhh the cream of the crop! Bullchip.... I would get messages from people, after they winked and favorite'd me.... from an obscure place about 150 miles away.... one pic.... gorgeous.... get the picture? They state they can not receive messages on Match (hello, to wink, fav, message you must be paying member) and give you an email address. Ignore those..... I did it once just to see.... severely inept English, yet live near you! They will disable their profile from your viewing within a few hours if you totally ignore them. Match has an IM function... I'm a night owl.... that is when they strike. You get "What name do you go by?" Dead giveaway.... after awhile I messed with them.... "I am Chuck IV of Lancaster." You will get messages from a nearby city (when you suspect one.... fav them.... you will notice their city of residence change quickly, nearer yours).
> 
> They will search a city within 25 miles of you...... They ask if you like long distance relationships..... because they are a nurse in a third world country for the next six to twelve months. "Why did you put xxxx as your city of residence?" "I went to a birthday party there once." LOL I'm serious....Then they ask when they can see you "When you return to the States and are passing through north Georgia, take care." If you want to have fun... ask what country they are in...... "What's the capital.... Who is President / dictator / ruler, or What country are you in conflict with...." They either leave you alone or change the subject.
> 
> Match has the most BS con of any.... when your membership runs out, you suddenly get dozens of winks, fav's, daily picks that some woman likes you....... but gosh golly darn..... you have to sign back up to read them! You may get 5 winks and 5 fav's a month from legit people..... now that you are a non-member.... you get at least than every week, if not more.
> 
> You can meet someone worthwhile on any of the three OLD sites.... but 95% are cons, flakes, BSers, someone you would never match with, or just wondering what the world is like when they stop taking their meds.


Yeah, I read this. I sought it out from the last time you mentioned it. I'm finding OK Cupid to be more fun and am having better response than from POF. Many of the same girls on both. I think they are essentially the same. Honestly, I can only blame myself for the experiences I am having because I am always going for girls with a bit of an edge as opposed to "wholesome church going Mary's"


----------



## TheTruthHurts

@gridcom take a deep breath. Relax. Then Maybe take a chance in a woman without an obvious edge.

I would think a "good woman" would have to make a choice - focus on the freak or focus on the wholesome. Ideally they'll have a bit of both, but someone who isn't putting that out there isn't necessarily lacking it.

You would do well to get a "good woman" first. Someone who is well adjusted and a complete package.

Was listening to talk radio - morning dj stuff so take it for what it's worth - but they asked what personality traits in a woman correlate to the most sex. Based on "some study".

Regardless of the study's credibility, the trait most associated with more sex was "agreeable" . Not edgy or wild or whatever.

You spent a lot of years with someone VERY NOT agreeable. Maybe you should give yourself a break.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## manfromlamancha

Grid, next time carry a cattle prod with you - trust me, it helps!


----------



## Chuck71

gridcom said:


> Yeah, I read this. I sought it out from the last time you mentioned it. I'm finding OK Cupid to be more fun and am having better response than from POF. Many of the same girls on both. I think they are essentially the same. Honestly, I can only blame myself for the experiences I am having because I am always going for girls with a bit of an edge as opposed to "wholesome church going Mary's"


Whatever situation they are in when you meet someone online, it is NOT your fault, nor your problem.

Many people who are on OLD have not addressed any of their problems. They think if they can catch

someone else, their problems will just vanish like a fart in a baking soda factory. Guess what happens......

Same problems, same issues, same reactions. Nothing learned. I spoke to an old TAM titan recently....

he went through a D, then year long thing, then R.... now he is doing his own thing with friends and 

his child. "Tell me how much you miss dating" -Not one Fing bit-

Here's the deal.... most guys think they have to meet certain expectations of a female.

What they forget is the female has to meet theirs as well. But.... on OLD there are many guys who are 

just out for strange, nothing more. What do YOU want Grid.... something LTR based or .... someone fun

with no real strings attached? Guy to guy.... you aren't ready. Put going through a D and just

wanting to live again, nothing deep / serious, just hanging out, enjoying music. There are a lot of females

exactly in your boat. You want human contact more than anything.... 110% normal.

Most healthy women would shy away from a LTR with a male going through a D. Main reason I think

one year wait for a D is complete BS. But the LCD is you..... what do you want, what will you put up

with. Never forget we train people how to treat us


----------



## turnera

Grid, what kinds of activities are you participating in? meetup.com activities? Church? Taking a class at junior college (I loved my racquetball class and it was cheap!)? Playing sports? Volunteering somewhere? 

You will be MUCH more likely to meet some women you'll enjoy being with at any of such types of things. We have several 'start up' organizations, where we go listen to people give pitches about their new businesses. So much fun - always a party afterwards.

Get creative.


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## hope4family

Ah thanks for the laughs Grid. 

I am still trying to catch up on where you are at. Keep blogging. It will help you out to sort your thought outs and then write them down.


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## gridcom

turnera said:


> Grid, what kinds of activities are you participating in? meetup.com activities? Church? Taking a class at junior college (I loved my racquetball class and it was cheap!)? Playing sports? Volunteering somewhere?
> 
> You will be MUCH more likely to meet some women you'll enjoy being with at any of such types of things. We have several 'start up' organizations, where we go listen to people give pitches about their new businesses. So much fun - always a party afterwards.
> 
> Get creative.


I participate in going to live concerts. That's about it. My schedule is so random and sometimes sudden that i cant really dedicate "every Thursday at 7pm" ever never. Plus, I work late into the night often, like right now. I am at my desk and it's 10:40. Not complaining, love my job.

I was at a show this weekend, and there was a woman there with her friend, and she was cute in all the perfect ways (for me). leaning against a wall, low key, a bit frumpy, cite face, nice smile, alone with her friend, about my age. And I thought "What would I even say to her?" What does a guy say to a woman when walking up? "Hi, How are you?" I mean,m is it that simple? seems totally bizzare to me. And I could have been all like "Hi, this band you are watching. I am their manager. Would you like to meet them?" But, that is so horribly weak, isnt it? Hipster power juice.

Anyway, I never approached her. I just did nothing. This is why online dating is so fascinating to me, because I can approach via the written word, which I think I am pretty good at.

Eh


----------



## turnera

First, if you 'have no time' to do whatever you feel like doing, well, what is your life for? Think about it. 

And what woman would want to be exclusive with such a man?

Second, if I were that woman at the event, all I'd want from you is for you to say "Hi." That's it. Women can take it from there. Just like men, all we really want is to know you're interested.



> I just did nothing. This is why online dating is so fascinating to me, because I can approach via the written word, which I think I am pretty good at


Do you hear what you're saying? You're chicken. You have low self esteem. You're too scared to just approach a woman and talk to her, so you do it behind the anonymity of a screen, so you are 'safe.'

While, if you were doing the work in therapy to get PAST your low self esteem, you'd be able to just go out and just have fun. Your self worth wouldn't be tied into whether this or that women accepts you.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

All You have to do is make first contact - like Close Encounters of the Third kind. Just walk up and go Doo dee Doo da doooooooo.

She'll take it from there as @turnera says


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## lifeistooshort

I recommend running groups. It's good for you and all of the single people are looking, and you're usually going to get a stable person because it takes a certain amount of discipline to run. 

Check your local running store for group runs.

All ability levels are welcome.

At the very least you'll make lots of new friends, but I know a number of people who met their spouses through running. 

Hubby and I met at a 5k.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## convert

gridcom said:


> In this reality, however, I am walking out on woman at their home because, in addition to *being completely over the top aggressive, they want to hurt me. Like "literally" physically hurt me while engaging in foreplay*.
> 
> I just left a scene on Sunday night where my final words walking out the door were "You're a lunatic"" and the response was "Where are you going? You're LEAVING?"
> 
> *Yeah, if you keep PUNCHING me in the NUTS!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes, I am leaving*.
> 
> *a woman who had a tick where she blinked like 400X a minute, and a woman who wanted to punch me and bite me while making out*
> 
> 
> Yep.


Well....Ok... But what did she look like:grin2:


----------



## Tron

convert said:


> well....ok... But what did she look like _*with a paper bag over her head?*_ :grin2:


ftfy


----------



## Chuck71

Or after a twelve pack and unfiltered Lucky Strikes....


----------



## Tron

Good thing about the paper bag is she's more likely to swing and miss when she tries to junkpunch you.

Hey Grid, you got funds enough to hire a body double? Let him take the first couple punches, then you finish her off.


----------



## Vulcan2013

Fix her up with the OM.


----------



## gridcom

turnera said:


> Do you hear what you're saying? You're chicken. You have low self esteem. You're too scared to just approach a woman and talk to her, so you do it behind the anonymity of a screen, so you are 'safe.'


Well, I did just get dumped for a heroin junky without a job or a car, so...you know...


----------



## Chuck71

gridcom said:


> Well, I did just get dumped for a heroin junky without a job or a car, so...you know...


Dude..... he is a junkie, pure n simple. She is a Florence Nightingale, pure n simple.

You could have been to women what Mel Gibson was 20 years ago and her actions would be the same.

Worry about what you can control. What you can't control.... will be, whether you worry or not.

How's dem Mets doing?


----------



## thebirdman

gridcom said:


> Well, I did just get dumped for a heroin junky without a job or a car, so...you know...


I had something like that happen once. That's called "dodging a bullet."


----------



## turnera

gridcom said:


> Well, I did just get dumped for a heroin junky without a job or a car, so...you know...


What's that got do to with your self image? If it was good to begin with, you'd just laugh her on her way for being so stupid.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

gridcom said:


> Well, I did just get dumped for a heroin junky without a job or a car, so...you know...


I got dumped for a suicidal crack [email protected], so yeah....


----------



## Chuck71

3Xnocharm said:


> I got dumped for a suicidal crack [email protected], so yeah....


My 1st love dumped me back in 1990 when I refused to quit college and move in / M her and start

a career at "Jack in the Box." Six weeks after our last goodbye in Jan. '91, she was M. To a guy who

was a cross between Jed Clampit and a pork rind.


----------



## Chuck71

Mets should capture wild card. Who would you rather face, Cards or Giants? Think they can return to Fall Classic?


----------



## gridcom

I've been thinking about you all. I'll be back soon with an update, although its nothing earth shattering. Life goes on.


----------



## Bibi1031

gridcom said:


> I've been thinking about you all. I'll be back soon with an update, *although its nothing earth shattering*. Life goes on.



That is a good thing. Your world has already been shattered once and you are hopefully now walking on somewhat safe ground again. Waiting for the update...it's all good Grid. Your journey is getting better and not as dark as when this mess started.


----------



## gridcom

Well, for starters, I actually did go buy a Playstation 4. I bought one game "MLB The Show". This was an impulse purchase but better than buying a boat! Also, better than buying a dog because I can completely ignore it and everything is just fine. The PS4 is my current girlfriend.

The deal with my ex is just about done. She hired a lawyer and the lawyer convinced her she was leaving too much on the table. Imagine that, a woman who viciously cheated and betrayed her family with her hand out asking for money like a bum. Refuses to get a better paying job to help her own self, despite numerous boasts that she "doesn't need me or my money" and that she's "lived on potato and eggs and in basements apartments before and will do it again" Said she didnt deserve spousal maintenance. At the end of the day, I pay her full child support for the duration and a one time spousal maintenance prize of $7,000. The child support is whatever. There is no cap on it. So, if I today created a situation in my job where I could generate 2 million dollars in income, she'd get $500,000 in "child support" from me. I'm sure she'd take that money make sure it went all to the kids, right? 

A lot of people told me my lawyer sucked. and maybe he did. I dont know. But, what I do know is, as a divorce lawyer, you are far more likely to look like a rockstar when you represent the female in NY who makes 1/8th of what her husband makes. You can flip sh!t upside down and inside out. 

She still lives in the house and it'll go on the market the moment this final divorce draft is signed, so hopefully 2 weeks I suppose; maybe 3. I've been living in a tiny room but I am about to move. I am looking at Tarrytown. Seems to be the winner.

Dating has been an adventure. That's all I'll say about that. There are current girls in my orbit and one I'd say is my "current situation", but nothing to report. The girl from the spring who went back with her junkie ex BF, never heard from her again. It's like she doesnt even exist, which is for the best I suppose

Cheers


----------



## just got it 55

gridcom said:


> Well, for starters, I actually did go buy a Playstation 4. I bought one game "MLB The Show". This was an impulse purchase but better than buying a boat! Also, better than buying a dog because I can completely ignore it and everything is just fine. The PS4 is my current girlfriend.
> 
> The deal with my ex is just about done. She hired a lawyer and the lawyer convinced her she was leaving too much on the table. Imagine that, a woman who viciously cheated and betrayed her family with her hand out asking for money like a bum. Refuses to get a better paying job to help her own self, despite numerous boasts that she "doesn't need me or my money" and that she's "lived on potato and eggs and in basements apartments before and will do it again" Said she didnt deserve spousal maintenance. At the end of the day, I pay her full child support for the duration and a one time spousal maintenance prize of $7,000. The child support is whatever. There is no cap on it. So, if I today created a situation in my job where I could generate 2 million dollars in income, she'd get $500,000 in "child support" from me. I'm sure she'd take that money make sure it went all to the kids, right?
> 
> A lot of people told me my lawyer sucked. and maybe he did. I dont know. But, what I do know is, as a divorce lawyer, you are far more likely to look like a rockstar when you represent the female in NY who makes 1/8th of what her husband makes. You can flip sh!t upside down and inside out.
> 
> She still lives in the house and it'll go on the market the moment this final divorce draft is signed, so hopefully 2 weeks I suppose; maybe 3. I've been living in a tiny room but I am about to move. I am looking at Tarrytown. Seems to be the winner.
> 
> Dating has been an adventure. That's all I'll say about that. There are current girls in my orbit and one I'd say is my "current situation", but nothing to report. The girl from the spring who went back with her junkie ex BF, never heard from her again. It's like she doesnt even exist, which is for the best I suppose
> 
> Cheers


Seems like very realistic thinking Grid

Carry on Bro

BTW Cubs! as a Red Sox fan I can relate

The Chicago fans waited longer but the Red Sox suffered more See 1986 within 1 Strike/ out of WS victory

I was at Fenway in 78 Bucky Bleeping Dent

But once they won after all the years I waited my first thought was

Sh!t......I still have to get up and go to work in the morning

Be Well

55


----------



## Bibi1031

gridcom said:


> * a woman who viciously cheated and betrayed her family with her hand out asking for money like a bum. Refuses to get a better paying job to help her own self, despite numerous boasts that she "doesn't need me or my money" and that she's "lived on potato and eggs and in basements apartments before and will do it again" Said she didnt deserve spousal maintenance. At the end of the day, I pay her full child support for the duration and a one time spousal maintenance prize of $7,000. The child support is whatever. There is no cap on it. So, if I today created a situation in my job where I could generate 2 million dollars in income, she'd get $500,000 in "child support" from me. I'm sure she'd take that money make sure it went all to the kids, right? *


My guess is that shame went out the window together with loyalty, sincerity, fidelity, etc. She is a shameless tomato soup on top of all other things!:surprise:


----------



## manfromlamancha

Is she still with the same useless [email protected] ?


----------



## gridcom

manfromlamancha said:


> Is she still with the same useless [email protected] ?


My ex? With Starbuck's guy? Oh yeah. He's still laying in the shadows like a rat. Nobody's met him.


----------



## Chuck71

First time your XW asks Pimples to do something with her and the girl, he will have an excuse not to.

And we know where it will go from there.....


----------



## gridcom

Life moves pretty fast. I thought about you all today, and I suppose some of you may want to know how things are and where things stand and etc etc

First off, I want to say that many of you (all of you) were such a big help me when I was having what hopefully will be my one life catastrophe. I can only be so lucky. I have learned a lot since my first post here 20 months ago. A lot about myself. A lot about how the human mind works. A TON about how the human mind works, actually. I've learned about being financially self sufficient. I've learned how to cook. I've learned that kids are pretty resilient. I've learned a lot about dating and the dating scene as a 45 year old man in the suburbs of the world's greatest city. I've learned to be alone. 

Ok, enough poetry. Yes, my ex is still with the Starbucks boy. My kids met him today actually, 20 months after D-Day. My oldest daughter hates him. She understands (sort of) the what and why and she is very bold. My younger daughter doesn't really understand. Our mediation agreement is STILL NOT SIGNED! It's been such a hassle. Basically, the frame work has been done for ever, but the ex is nit picking on what time the kids get dropped off on every other Easter and BLAH BLAH BLAH. I was hung up for a while on the definition of emancipation. The way the deal reads now is that if the kids hate the Starbucks guy and over time decide to want to live with me, and my ex lets them, then they can move in with me but I STILL have to pay her full child support. I tried to get it changed, but she literally threatened to rip up the deal and take me to court where "it'd be much, much worse for me" (which it would be)

My lawyer is f^cking idiot. I hired an idiot lawyer. 

I moved to a town much closer to Manhattan on the Hudson River. Small little clean apartment. I'm digging it. I can see the Tappan Zee Bridge right outside my bedroom window as I type this; pretty cool.

My dating life. I can write a book about this. I could write a book about the last year of my live in terms of dating and it'd be the best f^cking book you ever read. I have had experiences that have been just bananas. From the girl who casually told me that her bones were flexible and and she couldnt do yoga because her skeleton couldnt handle it (check please!), to the girl that, out of nowhere, slapped me in the sack and bit my bicep and then asked "What?" when I was like "What the f^ck are you trying to do to me?", to the girl who dropped "I have genital herpes" on me when I took her pants off and was pretty drunk "Wait....what?" 
I never understood the term "short term dating" I just thought everybody wanted to fall in love and stay in love and be with one person. But, short term dating is a "thing". And not a bad thing.

Work is good. I have a few musical clients doing real well all of a sudden. I somehow had my best professional year in 2016, come to find out. I cried when they sent me my final numbers. I don't really understand how I was able to carry all of that on my back.

Anyway, lets go Mets


----------



## Chuck71

Please tell me you are not shocked at her actions. Shows where her priorities lie.

She will not sign anything until she gets what she wants, PERIOD. She wants it all... even the kitchen

sink and the drip that comes from it. Please tell me you were having a bad dream when you

said you could get the oldest girl ONLY after HER (Madder Soop's) approval and STILL have to pay

HER child support. And we wonder WITFH guys are turning away from M.

By the way... glad you updated! :smthumbup:


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Thanks for the update Grid, I was just thinking of you not long ago!

If I were you, I would DEFINITELY NOT agree to paying support should the kids want to live with you! What a load of bull**** that is! Because I have a very strong feeling the kids will end up wanting to be with you, and by her taking support if that happens, she is taking money directly away from her own children. What a selfish, rotten thing for a mother to want to do!


----------



## gridcom

Well, I could just say that they cant live with me until we reach some sort of financial agreement. At this point, I just need it to end.


----------



## Chuck71

gridcom said:


> Well, I could just say that they cant live with me until we reach some sort of financial agreement. *At this point, I just need it to end*.


That's what she is "banking" on....


----------



## turnera

It's always possible to have an amazing relationship with your kids without them actually living with you.


----------



## sokillme

gridcom said:


> Anyway, lets go Mets


This is the year!


----------



## ConanHub

Thanks for touching base Grid!

Good to hear from you!


----------



## gridcom

I think one more thing of value that I will add. My ex never acknowledged the enormity of what she did. She consistently and completely put it back on me 100% of the time, and never so much as acknowledged her role in any of it. I see the few friends she has when I am out with the kids and they give me the cold shoulder and I wonder "What tale could have possibly been spun here?"

She gets bent out of shape when I don't help her out. Case in point. We have wall to wall carpeting. The vacuum cleaner broke. Over the course of two weeks, every time I would go to the house to watch the kids on my one afternoon, the place was just visually unbearable. I owe her money upon the final agreement and closing of the sale of the house. I tell her I will buy her a vacuum cleaner, she can buy whatever one she wants, but the price comes out of the money I'm going to pay her when the house closes. She is just chuffed about this. She expects me to just BUY her a vacuum but will not hear of her paying me back for it. I didn't budge. Keep in mind, this was about 3 months ago. 

I guess I should also mention that I have been giving her just enough to get by. I turned the cable off. Turned the home security off. I pay my pro rated share of summer camps and kids related stuff. I pay the mortgage in full. I was paying her credit cards as the minimums went up, but then told her I would give her a flat fee for three credit cards and if the mimimum's go up, it's not my problem. Her car broke down, just this week. For good. It was paid off and now she has no car. My mother tells me she is on Facebook begging people to help her buy a car. 

I put out in expenses, other than my own living expenses, exactly the same amount of money I would if I was paying NY State required child support. Plus additional expenses for the kids (little league, health insurance) on top. So, I've set myself up to go through this long process as if its already started. When the ink is dry and the house is sold, my monthly nut doesn't change at all from what it is right now

I say all of this because it all INFURIATES my ex. All of this, what I mentioned above, from not buying her a vacuum to not paying all the bills etc etc, she see's it as me being a total POS. 

So, I guess the one thing looking back in the rearview is I am completely blown away by the total lack of accountability and the completely unique narrative she has trained her mind (?) to accept. 

She has never once, from the very first moment, acknowledged her role in any of it.


----------



## eric1

gridcom said:


> I think one more thing of value that I will add. My ex never acknowledged the enormity of what she did. She consistently and completely put it back on me 100% of the time, and never so much as acknowledged her role in any of it. I see the few friends she has when I am out with the kids and they give me the cold shoulder and I wonder "What tale could have possibly been spun here?"
> 
> She gets bent out of shape when I don't help her out. Case in point. We have wall to wall carpeting. The vacuum cleaner broke. Over the course of two weeks, every time I would go to the house to watch the kids on my one afternoon, the place was just visually unbearable. I owe her money upon the final agreement and closing of the sale of the house. I tell her I will buy her a vacuum cleaner, she can buy whatever one she wants, but the price comes out of the money I'm going to pay her when the house closes. She is just chuffed about this. She expects me to just BUY her a vacuum but will not hear of her paying me back for it. I didn't budge. Keep in mind, this was about 3 months ago.
> 
> I guess I should also mention that I have been giving her just enough to get by. I turned the cable off. Turned the home security off. I pay my pro rated share of summer camps and kids related stuff. I pay the mortgage in full. I was paying her credit cards as the minimums went up, but then told her I would give her a flat fee for three credit cards and if the mimimum's go up, it's not my problem. Her car broke down, just this week. For good. It was paid off and now she has no car. My mother tells me she is on Facebook begging people to help her buy a car.
> 
> I put out in expenses, other than my own living expenses, exactly the same amount of money I would if I was paying NY State required child support. Plus additional expenses for the kids (little league, health insurance) on top. So, I've set myself up to go through this long process as if its already started. When the ink is dry and the house is sold, my monthly nut doesn't change at all from what it is right now
> 
> I say all of this because it all INFURIATES my ex. All of this, what I mentioned above, from not buying her a vacuum to not paying all the bills etc etc, she see's it as me being a total POS.
> 
> So, I guess the one thing looking back in the rearview is I am completely blown away by the total lack of accountability and the completely unique narrative she has trained her mind (?) to accept.
> 
> She has never once, from the very first moment, acknowledged her role in any of it.




Addition by subtraction. 

Let the countdown until your youngest is 18 begin!


----------



## Chuck71

There is no telling what my XW told her friends. IDGAF... and here is why.... if they were "family friends," even though you met them through her, anyone with any rationalism would understand there are three sides to every story: her side, his side, the truth. The way I viewed it was, they could come up to me, inform me of said accusations and allow me to confirm or debunk them. If they were debunked, and allowed me to give my 'play-by-play' then it is up to THEM to decide who was more believable and who was fulla crap. Grid... even after they hear both sides, it should not bother you which side they choose. They can believe you, or Madder Soop. You can not control how others think. YOU know the real story. 

Begging for money on FB.... :rofl: Get this... my XW of 2012, who traveled 500 miles away to shack up with a guy on disability, who died back in the Fall... My XW 1-Was on Match.com not even two weeks after he was buried, 2-Set up a GoFundMe page on FB to come back home ($1k), 3-Set up a HelpMe page on FB for free furniture once she arrived because as soon as her "beau" passed away, his family told her GTFO, 4-Contacted me about getting furniture she left almost four years prior -some was her mom's, others were mine-, and 5-Just wanted us to get together and "talk." Granted we did talk, my mother just died but that was a once and done deal.

Grid.... until she knows she can snag another "male ATM" she will still see you as her de facto H. Pimples McStarbucks obviously is not pitching in. Madder Soop ain't asking him yet, she knows he will run for the hills and she will then, have to eat her "doo-doo sandwich" or... sliver back.... to you. Chuck... you're F'ing crazy.... am I?

Madder Soop still wants you Grid.... well she wants your money more than you, has for awhile. As long as you send a check, keep your mouth shut, and allow her to do what she wants, she may only anger dump on you when she has no one else to.

Grid... if you knew in Spring 1992, what you know now.... what would you say?

Dating in the 2010s... yeah, I'm there too. Lotsa Madder Soops out there, broken, damaged, PO'd, angry, burned, etc. I feel for some but that is not my problem. If they are not ready to date, work on yourself. Then try dating. If you have boundaries... it will most likely take much longer to find a suitable match. If you don't have boundaries, you will fall in love and get M.... and repeat the very same patterns as to why both of the couple's previous Ms, went up in smoke.

Grid.... "we train people how to treat us." Madder Soop over the years trained you to accept how she can treat you. Day by day, every 0.01% at a time. It adds up after 5,000-6,000 days.

Girls love their fathers..... strong fathers are the foundation to young healthy women. No matter what the government says, they will be drawn to you. Do you think the girls give two sheets what a court document says if they want to see their father? You already know the answer, as do I and 99% of the posters here.


----------



## weightlifter

weightlifter said:


> Good enough list of exposure.
> Im not a big fan of possibly getting a WS fired when D may happen. Not for nice, but for alimony considerations.
> 
> BTW. You dont see it but many of us old timers here do.
> You turned a corner. You're still near the bottom of the valley, but beginning the long slow crappy slog up the other side.


Ya know it hurts to be correct so much. 

Waves to Grid


----------



## Mr Blunt

> *By Gridcom
> *At the end of the day, I pay her full child support for the duration and a one time spousal maintenance prize of $7,000. The child support is whatever. There is no cap on it. So, if I today created a situation in my job where I could generate 2 million dollars in income, she'd get $500,000 in "child support" from me. I'm sure she'd take that money make sure it went all to the kids, right?



You pay 25% of your income for child support?....What kind of law is in your state? The sate goes by a percentage of your income and not by the amount needed for the children's expenses?

If I have figured your child support it is around $2500 per month or $30,000 a year. Is that for both children? Does it go down when the oldest is 18?

Does your ex-wife have full discretion as to how to spend the child support money? How can one make sure the child support goes for the children?
I can understand paying child support for the children’s expenses but not for the betraying spouse to use for themselves. 

If all above are true then the divorce laws can hold a spouse in bondage until your children turn 18…IOW, a person may be forced to put up with betrayal because of financial reasons. 

I will never get married again and allow the state to control my finances. Does a pre-nup protect a person like gridcom from getting financially raped?


----------



## gridcom

Mr Blunt said:


> You pay 25% of your income for child support?....What kind of law is in your state? The sate goes by a percentage of your income and not by the amount needed for the children's expenses?
> 
> If I have figured your child support it is around $2500 per month or $30,000 a year. Is that for both children? Does it go down when the oldest is 18?
> 
> Does your ex-wife have full discretion as to how to spend the child support money? How can one make sure the child support goes for the children?
> I can understand paying child support for the children’s expenses but not for the betraying spouse to use for themselves.
> 
> If all above are true then the divorce laws can hold a spouse in bondage until your children turn 18…IOW, a person may be forced to put up with betrayal because of financial reasons.
> 
> I will never get married again and allow the state to control my finances. Does a pre-nup protect a person like gridcom from getting financially raped?


NY State is 25% and emancipation is 21 in NYS. I do not control how it is spent. This is all NY State Law, so it's not debatable. There is nothing to argue. My sh^tty lawyer, every time I would kick and scream at the injustice would just be like "Get out while you can"


----------



## Chuck71

Mr Blunt said:


> You pay 25% of your income for child support?....What kind of law is in your state? The sate goes by a percentage of your income and not by the amount needed for the children's expenses?
> 
> If I have figured your child support it is around $2500 per month or $30,000 a year. Is that for both children? Does it go down when the oldest is 18?
> 
> Does your ex-wife have full discretion as to how to spend the child support money? How can one make sure the child support goes for the children?
> I can understand paying child support for the children’s expenses but not for the betraying spouse to use for themselves.
> 
> If all above are true then the divorce laws can hold a spouse in bondage until your children turn 18…IOW, a person may be forced to put up with betrayal because of financial reasons.
> 
> I will never get married again and allow the state to control my finances. Does a pre-nup protect a person like gridcom from getting financially raped?


I have yet to see a fair D for a man in state of NY. You touched upon something friends and I

have discussed in great detail before. Most fathers (yeah I'm just using fathers, if anyone

else wants to example this as a female, please do) do not mind paying child support. (Yeah some don't

pay, etc etc etc) As long as it is for the kids. What pizzes many off is when the CS funds

are spent on his XWs needs / leisure or the guy she is with. So what if... the guy does have more say

so on where the CS is spent? The court systems are backlogged as it is. Some couples

would be in court 5x a month. 

There was a club / high end strip joint in Atlanta back in the 90s. The Gold Club. Guy met girl

there (yeah great place to meet someone), ONS, pregnant, and no plans of M either way.

He did not mind paying CS. He payed over 75k a year and it was he!! on Earth trying to

even see him. But she bragged on who the father was to anyone who would listen.

Oh... BTW... this was her third kid. At one time she collected 140k a year in CS. All ONS.... with 

NBA players. The one I knew of, knew him through a running buddy, who knew him through

an NFL player he grew up with. We would hear horror stories. The dad would send the kid 

presents / gifts and she would return them for $ back and scream they never provide for 

their children. Yes that was something given, in addition to the CS. I could go into more detail

but you get the point.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> NY State is 25% and emancipation is 21 in NYS. I do not control how it is spent. This is all NY State Law, so it's not debatable. There is nothing to argue. My sh^tty lawyer, every time I would kick and scream at the injustice would just be like "Get out while you can"


NY State D laws suck big time! I assume that some states are not that bad?
It seems like if you do not want to get raped in court on child support you have a few options:

1	Get a pre-nup that established everything including CS. Does that exist?
2	Stay married until the children reach emancipation age
3	Do not have children
4	Make sure that you get custody of the children
5 ?????????

Paying to have your children have the basics of life, an education, and medical coverage, etc. is a good thing and very understandable. However, paying CS and the custody parent using that money for themselves will make some people think criminal thoughts. The story that Chuck posted is sickening.

When I was 12 years old I was in a serious auto accident and won a settlement from the insurance company that was a lot of money back then. The judge set up an account that was controlled by the judge and my parents had to get approval to withdraw any money for me until I was 21 years old. My parents had to prove that the money was for me and no one else. The judge allowed some money to be paid DIRECTLY to the college that I attended at age 18. I would hope that CS could be set up like that.

NY state court is screwing gridcon and there is nothing he can do about now. However, *maybe someone reading this thread can take actions so that do not get raped in court for CS*.


----------



## Chuck71

Mr Blunt said:


> NY State D laws suck big time! I assume that some states are not that bad?
> It seems like if you do not want to get raped in court on child support you have a few options:
> 
> 1	Get a pre-nup that established everything including CS. Does that exist?
> 2	Stay married until the children reach emancipation age
> 3	Do not have children
> 4	Make sure that you get custody of the children
> 5 ?????????
> 
> Paying to have your children have the basics of life, an education, and medical coverage, etc. is a good thing and very understandable. However, paying CS and the custody parent using that money for themselves will make some people think criminal thoughts. The story that Chuck posted is sickening.
> 
> When I was 12 years old I was in a serious auto accident and won a settlement from the insurance company that was a lot of money back then. The judge set up an account that was controlled by the judge and my parents had to get approval to withdraw any money for me until I was 21 years old. My parents had to prove that the money was for me and no one else. The judge allowed some money to be paid DIRECTLY to the college that I attended at age 18. I would hope that CS could be set up like that.
> 
> NY state court is screwing gridcon and there is nothing he can do about now. However, *maybe someone reading this thread can take actions so that do not get raped in court for CS*.


I never in my wildest dreams imagined a state could be this one-sided.... until I started reading 

ReGroup's thread back in '12. Believe it or not, Virginia may be even worse. Check out 

Lone Shadow's thread. It takes a lot to "floor" me.... but those two states did.


----------



## Satya

It's the lack of requirement for accountability that really stings. The process does not meet the regulatory standard it should. 

If the receiver of child support had to produce and sumbit receipts monthly or even quarterly for all child expenses, AND was "audited" with any frequency, you can bet the money would go where it's needed, and you'd know it, not just wonder.


----------



## bandit.45

gridcom said:


> NY State is 25% and emancipation is 21 in NYS. I do not control how it is spent. This is all NY State Law, so it's not debatable. There is nothing to argue. My sh^tty lawyer, every time I would kick and scream at the injustice would just be like "Get out while you can"


Can you just wait on divorce until the younger daughter turns 18? I dont see how your life would change that much if you divorced today. Just stay legally separated, keep dating and let your slag wife show everyone what a p.o.s. she is.

Or stay married and move out of N.Y. to a state that has much more equitable divorce laws? Let your wife divorce you in that state if she has to. Make her do the work. You fly the girls to visit you in the summers and holidays.


----------



## Pluto2

Mr Blunt said:


> NY State D laws suck big time! I assume that some states are not that bad?
> It seems like if you do not want to get raped in court on child support you have a few options:
> 
> 1	Get a pre-nup that established everything including CS. Does that exist?
> 2	Stay married until the children reach emancipation age
> 3	Do not have children
> 4	Make sure that you get custody of the children
> 5 ?????????
> 
> Paying to have your children have the basics of life, an education, and medical coverage, etc. is a good thing and very understandable. However, paying CS and the custody parent using that money for themselves will make some people think criminal thoughts. The story that Chuck posted is sickening.
> 
> When I was 12 years old I was in a serious auto accident and won a settlement from the insurance company that was a lot of money back then. The judge set up an account that was controlled by the judge and my parents had to get approval to withdraw any money for me until I was 21 years old. My parents had to prove that the money was for me and no one else. The judge allowed some money to be paid DIRECTLY to the college that I attended at age 18. I would hope that CS could be set up like that.
> 
> NY state court is screwing gridcon and there is nothing he can do about now. However, *maybe someone reading this thread can take actions so that do not get raped in court for CS*.


No one wants to hear this but child support payments have nothing to do with your ex, they are about the kids, and the theory applied by most states is that kids of a marriage should not be economically penalized because of divorce. That means, they should not be penalized after a divorce if one parent's career takes off by holding them to the same expenses incurred before an economic advance, and they will have to economize if one parent's career goes in the crapper. So if the obligor's income goes up, so should the child support payments. The CS system was created so that the kids' life style continues to reflect that. It does not always seem equitable, but nothing about divorce is equitable. 

And most states have a high burden of proof as a requirement to explain why a couple deviates from the state CS guidelines, making it extremely difficult to contract around the guidelines a head of time unless you are already a high earner. Courts retain jurisdiction over child support determinations until the kids are of age precisely to make sure one bully of a parent doesn't strip the kids of decent support. (Of course I was not including our Grid in this).


----------



## gridcom

Pluto2 said:


> No one wants to hear this but child support payments have nothing to do with your ex, they are about the kids, and the theory applied by most states is that kids of a marriage should not be economically penalized because of divorce. That means, they should not be penalized after a divorce if one parent's career takes off by holding them to the same expenses incurred before an economic advance, and they will have to economize if one parent's career goes in the crapper. So if the obligor's income goes up, so should the child support payments. The CS system was created so that the kids' life style continues to reflect that. It does not always seem equitable, but nothing about divorce is equitable.
> 
> And most states have a high burden of proof as a requirement to explain why a couple deviates from the state CS guidelines, making it extremely difficult to contract around the guidelines a head of time unless you are already a high earner. Courts retain jurisdiction over child support determinations until the kids are of age precisely to make sure one bully of a parent doesn't strip the kids of decent support. (Of course I was not including our Grid in this).


Good time to mention that I did get it in my agreement that if I should make more than $400,000 in any year, that the Child Support north of 400k would go into a fund for the kids that they can share when the youngest turns 21. So, the max CS my ex can have is 100k per year. Which, lets be honest, is still INCREDIBLE


----------



## Evinrude58

Grid,
25% goes to child support, at least 25% goes to income tax, I pay 10% in sales tax where I am.
Then property tax and state income tax is probably another 10%.

I'm guessing you get to keep about 30% of your pay?

Wow, I seriously would not get married in New York. I'm rethinking getting married again, period.

Your situation is just a shame.


----------



## lordmayhem

Pluto2 said:


> No one wants to hear this but child support payments have nothing to do with your ex, they are about the kids, and the theory applied by most states is that kids of a marriage should not be economically penalized because of divorce.


That's the theory alright, but in most cases that is not what happens in real life. That theory is outdated and belongs in the 50s where it originated. I have a coworker who's XW makes over $160K per year, which is three times what he makes, yet he gets raped in child support.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> *By Pluto*
> No one wants to hear this but child support payments have nothing to do with your ex, they are about the kids, and the theory applied by most states is that kids of a marriage should not be economically penalized because of divorce.


Everyone knows that the child support is for the children and I did not suggest that the children get penalized. My point is that all the CS should be spent on the children and the x-spouse should get NONE of it! That is why I said:



> Paying to have your children have the basics of life, an education, and medical coverage, etc. is a good thing and very understandable. However, paying CS and the custody parent using that money for them will make some people think criminal thoughts. The story that Chuck posted is sickening.



Satya’s post below is a very good idea



> *By Satya*
> It's the lack of requirement for accountability that really stings. The process does not meet the regulatory standard it should.
> 
> If the receiver of child support had to produce and submit receipts monthly or even quarterly for all child expenses, AND was "audited" with any frequency, you can bet the money would go where it's needed, and you'd know it, not just wonder.


----------



## 225985

How do you decide what is for the children? Mortgage, car note, food, heat, gas, cable, internet etc can all be considered for the benefit of the children, in addition to their clothes and education expenses. 

My brother divorced his cheating wife a decade ago. They lived not to far from Grid. Same state. She made his life miserable and extracted every penny and more from him. 

She bought a small plantation in Puerto Rico. Never made much money working. Guess who paid for that. 

His youngest recently turned 21. The money never went to them. 

But my niece and nephew know who was the real parent. They think their mom is crazy. She wanted to live the single wild life. Still does. It's pathetic.

BTW when she showed up at my father's funeral visitation a few months ago, I had to throw her out.


----------



## Satya

States are already so involved, it would not be difficult for each state to produce a worksheeet with all acceptable "types" of child expenses.
Then, the parent receiving CS has to fill in the worksheet (maybe online for ease of submission?) and can choose whether to break down the expenses into itemized categories or just put down a lump of what was spent per month/quarter.

Just an idea.


----------



## 225985

gridcom said:


> Good time to mention that I did get it in my agreement that if I should make more than $400,000 in any year, that the Child Support north of 400k would go into a fund for the kids that they can share when the youngest turns 21. So, the max CS my ex can have is 100k per year. Which, lets be honest, is still INCREDIBLE




Yes it is incredible. Your combined tax rate would approach 50%, so your net pay would be around $200,000. Great pay, but she would get half. Tax free. 

I hope you deduct every work related expenss you can from your gross income.


----------



## stixx

bandit.45 said:


> Can you just wait on divorce until the younger daughter turns 18? I dont see how your life would change that much if you divorced today. Just stay legally separated, keep dating and let your slag wife show everyone what a p.o.s. she is.
> 
> Or stay married and move out of N.Y. to a state that has much more equitable divorce laws? Let your wife divorce you in that state if she has to. Make her do the work. You fly the girls to visit you in the summers and holidays.


Waiting until the daughter turns 18 won't prevent a child support obligation because it's 21 for emancipation in NY as he clearly stated in his post that you quoted.

If wife stays in NY then NY is the home state and NY retains jurisdiction on divorce related matters, even if wife eventually moves out of NY State.



gridcom said:


> NY State is 25%


That's for 2 kids. 

It's 17% for 1 kid.


----------



## Mr Blunt

Website GOOGLE reference:	des.az.gov/sites/default/files/2015CSGuidelinesRED.p... 


Looking at the Arizona guidelines for child support I came up with the following calculations for child support

1	adjusted gross monthly income of the parents (Both husband and wife)
Husband = $6000 Wife = 4,000 = $10,000

If husband or wife pays child support to another family then the amount paid to the other family is deducted from gross income	example Husband pays $500 to other family = $6,000-$500 = $5,500


8. DETERMINING THE BASIC CHILD SUPPORT OBLIGATION

EXAMPLE: Combined Adjusted Gross Income is $10,000. The father's Adjusted Gross Income is $6000. Divide the father's Adjusted Gross Income by the Combined Adjusted Income. The result is the father's share of the Combined Adjusted Gross Income. ($6000
divided by $10,000 = 60%) *The father's share is 60%; the mother's share is 40%.
*



13. ADJUSTMENTS FOR OTHER COSTS

EXAMPLE: A noncustodial parent pays for medical insurance through his or her employer. Because the cost has already been paid to a third party (the insurance company), the cost must be deducted from the noncustodial parent's child supportobligation because this portion of the child support obligation has already been paid.

There is also an adjustment when the noncustodial parent has the child (Children) for many days in the year.


Schedule of Basic Support Obligations
For a Combined (father + Mother) adjusted gross income of $10,000 per month the basic support is Two children =$1,683	
* Without any deductions the father would pay 60% of $1,683 = $1,010 per month child support for two children*.

Would be less with deductions as described above in section 13.

*I believe that is a lot different than gridcom and the NY state percentage at 25%!!!*
NY state sucks on child support!

That is my understanding after reading the Arizona guidelines for child support. I may be missing something but that seems to be right as I have seen some child support orders in Arizona that match up pretty good to the above. This is just a guess and I am not an attorney.
*
I am open to corrections or more examples if anyone has any.*


----------



## lordmayhem

blueinbr said:


> How do you decide what is for the children? Mortgage, car note, food, heat, gas, cable, internet etc can all be considered for the benefit of the children, in addition to their clothes and education expenses.
> 
> My brother divorced his cheating wife a decade ago. They lived not to far from Grid. Same state. She made his life miserable and extracted every penny and more from him.
> 
> She bought a small plantation in Puerto Rico. Never made much money working. Guess who paid for that.
> 
> His youngest recently turned 21. The money never went to them.
> 
> But my niece and nephew know who was the real parent. They think their mom is crazy. She wanted to live the single wild life. Still does. It's pathetic.
> 
> BTW when she showed up at my father's funeral visitation a few months ago, I had to throw her out.


I don't know if you are familiar with legal guardianship, but in my state, if a person becomes a court appointment legal guardian over someone, they receive money from the state. And then the state requires a monthly printed budget of what the money was spent for (clothes, food, etc). 

That is something that I think should be used for CS. That way there is no question that the money is being spent on the children. If the state has the right to know if its money is being spent right by a legal guardian, then it is only right that the spouse paying CS has the right to know how the CS is being spent. It is for the children after all. 

But we all know life isn't fair or right, and we know who mainly gets screwed over in the family courts.


----------



## Chuck71

lordmayhem said:


> I don't know if you are familiar with legal guardianship, but in my state, if a person becomes a court appointment legal guardian over someone, they receive money from the state. And then the state requires a monthly printed budget of what the money was spent for (clothes, food, etc).
> 
> That is something that I think should be used for CS. That way there is no question that the money is being spent on the children. If the state has the right to know if its money is being spent right by a legal guardian, then it is only right that the spouse paying CS has the right to know how the CS is being spent. It is for the children after all.
> 
> But we all know life isn't fair or right, and we know who mainly gets screwed over in the family courts.


Of course the state would want a print-out... it's THEIR money and THEIR reputation. In family court,

it ain't their money so they don't GAF. Deal is... these laws were put in place many decades ago.

When it was a time when the woman, maybe not even a HS graduate, has babies and stays at 

home (see B/W sitcoms). Staying home, raising 3-4 kids, tending house, cooking, small garden,

running the kids.... sorry but that's NOT an easy job. I doubt I could ever do it. My mom was a SAHM

and never went to work FT until after I started junior high. Yeah I was an only child but

I was enough of a he!! raiser to match any three normal kids. 
When the H gets frisky with

the much younger secretary and runs off with her, there is the W left to raise a family with zero

job skills. You bet your a$$ I hope she gets as much CS as she can, she will need it. But things aren't 

that way anymore. Not by a long shot. Society changes, change the damn laws. 

We shouldn't get mad at the ones accepting all the CS, we should get mad at the lawmakers

who are NOT doing a thing about changing the laws. Until it inflicts them, they don't give a damn.

Just like with AIDS 35 years ago... nobody cared until high profile people came down with

it and heterosexuals did as well.


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## Pluto2

Mr Blunt said:


> Everyone knows that the child support is for the children and I did not suggest that the children get penalized. My point is that all the CS should be spent on the children and the x-spouse should get NONE of it! That is why I said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Satya’s post below is a very good idea


You can't separate housing/food/clothing for the kids from payments to custodial parent. The custodial (mother or father cause it goes both ways), gets a percentage of the obligor's income and that's the way it goes. Otherwise the non-custodial parent is obsessively involved in a non-spouses household and they do not have that right after a divorce. That is why it was set up that way. If there is a suspicion of abuse, there currently exist mechanisms for properly alleging abuse and bringing that before the court. Overly controlling ex-spouses are more of a problem that you realize.

Former spouses don't want to see the ex move into a bigger house, when they get a raise. Too bad. It is for the kids and the custodial parent will live there, too.
Some states an income model that considers the income of both parents and calculates child support as a percentage of both incomes. Some just consider a percentage of the obligor's income. Most states mandate a review of statutory guidelines every few years and they do make changes, so the argument that the guidelines are archaic is incorrect.


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## Evinrude58

Pluto2 said:


> You can't separate housing/food/clothing for the kids from payments to custodial parent. The custodial (mother or father cause it goes both ways), gets a percentage of the obligor's income and that's the way it goes. Otherwise the non-custodial parent is obsessively involved in a non-spouses household and they do not have that right after a divorce. That is why it was set up that way. If there is a suspicion of abuse, there currently exist mechanisms for properly alleging abuse and bringing that before the court. Overly controlling ex-spouses are more of a problem that you realize.
> 
> Former spouses don't want to see the ex move into a bigger house, when they get a raise. Too bad. It is for the kids and the custodial parent will live there, too.
> Some states an income model that considers the income of both parents and calculates child support as a percentage of both incomes. Some just consider a percentage of the obligor's income. Most states mandate a review of statutory guidelines every few years and they do make changes, so the argument that the guidelines are archaic is incorrect.


And men that think this way are the reason divorced dads are getting screwed all over the country. Why are we screwed so badly in court? Because we do it to ourselves. There's always someone in authority that makes excuses for obvious injustice.
If grid makes 400k a year, his ex would get 100k and he'd be lucky to keep 100k himself. It doesn't take 100k to take care of 2 kids. 
My best friend was paying 11k a month in child support to an adulterous leech who had the potential to earn at least 250k a year. She bought her AP a new pickup with the first check he sent.

Anyone that sees justice in these laws and doesn't find them archaic, I strongly disagree with.

Oh, my buddy has full custody now since she let her AP, now husband, hold her child while she punched her, then slapped her little sister so hard it left a hand print she couldn't hide from the cops because the youngest tried to come to the aid of her big sister. The evil that woman did to those children was astounding. She doesn't even call them now, ever.
And thankfully, she is unable to drain my friend anymore. He's a self- made man, btw. He worked unloading delivery trucks during the summers to pay for his education. He and I even worked together one summer. It just hurts me to think that evil woman was able to use the law to take advantage of my friends hard work, especially after cheating on him with her first employer she ever had. 
So yeah, I'm triggering, lol


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## Pluto2

my apologies @evenrude58. Never meant to cause a trigger.
and sorry grid for the thread jack. I'll stop


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## Evinrude58

Pluto2 said:


> my apologies @evenrude58. Never meant to cause a trigger.
> and sorry grid for the thread jack. I'll stop


Just a childish outburst, LOL. I'm lucky in that I divorced fast enough that my ex still felt guilty for doing what she did and I got a fair divorce. And my ex made the same amount as I do, and I got 50/50 custody.

But I can think of numerous examples that are like Grid's. 
I don't believe a person should be able to divorce a spouse and live off their spouse's work. One shouldn't be able to cheat/ditch a person and still have them support you if you're perfectly capable of earning a living. Exceptions of course.


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## Wolfman1968

Pluto2 said:


> You can't separate housing/food/clothing for the kids from payments to custodial parent. The custodial (mother or father cause it goes both ways), gets a percentage of the obligor's income and that's the way it goes. *Otherwise the non-custodial parent is obsessively involved in a non-spouses household and they do not have that right after a divorce. *That is why it was set up that way.
> .


That's a BS rationale. Because on the flip side, the custodial parent is DEEPLY involved in the noncustodial parent's household as they dig deep to find more money to demand a child support percentage, sometimes even trying to impute the income from the noncustodial parent's new spouse (even though they are not supposed to be able to do so, there have been judges complicit in such maneuvers)*. 

So why is it OK for the custodial parent to comb through the NC ex-spouse to see what money is available, but NOT ok for the reverse to happen to be sure of where it goes? Pure hypocrisy.

Your argument doesn't stand up, and in fact, I've seen it before. It's straight out of the CS apologists' playbook.

()()()()()()

* here's something for you and your little "not entitled to be involved in a non-spouse household" theory to chew on:

Impacts of Remarriage on Child and Spousal Support | Attorneys.com

Let me quote one damning section from that link:

"In Illinois, courts may now consider income of a parent's new spouse on an equitable basis when determining child support. In Illinois and similarly-minded states, courts are no longer required to ignore financial resources contributed by a new spouse. "

How does that mesh with your theory? In this link, they are not only allowed to get involved with the ex-spouse's finances, but ALSO with the ex-spouse's future mate! How's that for invasiveness? And you think I should accept your little fig-leaf "shouldn't get obsessively involved in the ex-spouse's household" excuse as to why the recipient parent shouldn't be held accountable for the received child support? Hogwash!!


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## phillybeffandswiss

.....edited.....

I had a really bad joke, but thought better of it.


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## Chuck71

Grid............ what's wrong with those Mets??? Oh... hows yousa doin?


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## hylton7

why were they not charged for child abuse.


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## gridcom

Sometimes I come back on here and start reading some of these threads, and it brings back emotions that have long since disappeared from my being. And it is quite upsetting. It's been over two years since my original post, and so much has happened and thankfully, most of it was in the first 12 months and not the last 12 months.

The last 12 months have seen me living in a nice place along the Hudson River. I didn't get shellacked in the divorce settlement (although still not technically divorced), my kids seem to be just fine (although they still live in the same house), I am living my 20's which I never got to do in my actual 20's because I was with my ex. Single women over 40 are a trip. I should have written a book. When I went on my very first date, if you would have asked me to name 6 scenarios as to how being single again would play out, the way it has ACTUALLY played out wouldn't have been among my 6 guesses. I can go on about this, but there is no need. I don't feel like a victim anymore, and in hindsight I look back and think that I had it too good for too long and like everybody else in the world I needed to taste some real bitterness, even if that bitterness came purposely at the hands of my wife.

I can tell anyone who bookmarked this thread that wanted to know what the end result was is that I am very happy and I think I was more in love with my identity being forcibly taken away from me than I was in love with my wife, and had I been a better husband she may not have cheated on me. She may have, anyway. We'll never know. That's the "beauty" of life, I suppose. Things just happen and we are all meant to trudge on, for better or worse.

Like I said earlier, every time I tap on this website and start reading other people's threads, I have a visceral reaction and emotions that I haven't felt in quite sometime. I wonder how some of you can be here, in come cases years after being wronged. No judgement, I just can't do it. I've moved on.


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## manfromlamancha

Is your stbxw still with her AP?


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## gridcom

manfromlamancha said:


> Is your stbxw still with her AP?


yep.


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## ButtPunch

It's a life changer grid. I don't trigger reading here anymore but I like to pay it forward in memory of the folks that helped me like happyman64 RIP.


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## gridcom

ButtPunch said:


> It's a life changer grid. I don't trigger reading here anymore but I like to pay it forward in memory of the folks that helped me like happyman64 RIP.


Ah man, total bummer about happyman64. Glad you and I are FB friends, though. 
Yeah, I found myself this morning just having some down time and I read through a few new threads and I just wanted to write my ex and annihilate her face, and then I realized it was because I was back here. It's like an album that you connect with a certain time in your life. A lot of you helped me in my very darkest, confused days (and many tried but couldn't help). I hear you on paying it forward, but your case is a bit different in that you had a happy ending and dealt with it properly, and I just melted from the heat

Happy to say that I have climbed all the way out, but I can't be hangin' round these parts none


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## farsidejunky

Yes, reading these threads do trigger certain emotions. 

I can tell you that the reason I continue to read them is to deliberately trigger those emotions as a reminder to never again allow myself to become what I once was: complacent, needy, weak...someone I couldn't stand to see in the mirror.


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## SunCMars

farsidejunky said:


> Yes, reading these threads do trigger certain emotions.
> 
> I can tell you that the reason I continue to read them is to deliberately trigger those emotions as a reminder to never again allow myself to become what I once was: complacent, needy, weak...someone *I couldn't stand to see in the mirror.*


Yes,

TAM is a Doozey..

A Doozey of a trigger. For everything everyone else is going through. 

You see it coming, 'verbally' charge out in front of the train.
You wave your' arms in front of the betrayed, telling the 'what' and the 'why-fors'.

And they do not listen.
Or their' listen too late. Oh, they listen.....they just do not agree....or fear to agree.
...........................................................................................................................

On seeing oneself in the mirror-

Being a dusty ghost and having ghost eyes. Ghost Ayes!
Such, this, I cannot see myself in the mirror.

But I can [see] in my Minds' eye.
And all TAMMERs can see me in their Minds' eye, also.

Ain't I purty? :grin2:
Yep, as are all Hippo-crits. :surprise:

Dark soul, in a Dark light, in a Dark world.
Born of the Sun?
......................................................................................

ON/WITHIN..
Gridcom's EX-WW....

Atonement is due....Her.

It will come from some quarter.
It will come from some 'out of sight' place. Impalpable to the masses.

It will come when she least expects it.
It will come shrouded and 'seemingly' out of the blue.
It will come from an 'occult' source.
It will come because she created a gash in the curtain.

A gash in the pervasive undulating, rolling quilt that is life and matter. That is a marker of things to come. 

Every action causes a reaction and in equal proportion. With THIS, not necessarily from an equally opposite direction.
The strike back direction? It will be a resultant, balanced Vector. And it will 'likely' lay her flat.

Flat she will be.

The evil will visit her directly. Or her partner, Or her home...
-Or- her health.
..................................................................................................
You see-

The gash must be re-knit from the comforting things of the slasher.

Hopefully, atonement comes in this life. Surely, the next.


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## MattMatt

[/url]via Imgflip Meme Generator[/IMG]


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## ButtPunch

gridcom said:


> I hear you on paying it forward, but your case is a bit different in that you had a happy ending and dealt with it properly, and I just melted from the heat
> 
> Happy to say that I have climbed all the way out, but I can't be hangin' round these parts none


I hear you....I may have put on a tough facade but believe me it hurt. 

It took the one thing I really trusted in this world away from me in an instant.

I don't wish that kind of pain on anyone, the kids, the emotions wow.

Life is a roller coaster except ours has just gone a little higher and little lower than it should have.

I'm proud of you Grid and I pray I never have to see you on TAM again.


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## gridcom

ButtPunch said:


> I hear you....I may have put on a tough facade but believe me it hurt.
> 
> It took the one thing I really trusted in this world away from me in an instant.
> 
> I don't wish that kind of pain on anyone, the kids, the emotions wow.
> 
> Life is a roller coaster except ours has just gone a little higher and little lower than it should have.
> 
> I'm proud of you Grid and I pray I never have to see you on TAM again.


Sweet Jesus, happening again? Lord..... Once was enough for this lifetime AND the next


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## Evinrude58

farsidejunky said:


> Yes, reading these threads do trigger certain emotions.
> 
> I can tell you that the reason I continue to read them is to deliberately trigger those emotions as a reminder to never again allow myself to become what I once was: complacent, needy, weak...someone I couldn't stand to see in the mirror.


Yep


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## lifeistooshort

I'm glad you're doing well grid and am truly sorry for how things went down. 

Take whatever lessons you can into your future. You don't control your ex, but you do control you.


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## gridcom

The one thread I was following close earlier this year was this one
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/private-members-section/376937-my-wife-will-not-admit-her-affair.html
It ended, abruptly. Anyone know whatever happened to this? Totally bananas


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## TDSC60

gridcom said:


> The one thread I was following close earlier this year was this one
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/private-members-section/376937-my-wife-will-not-admit-her-affair.html
> It ended, abruptly. Anyone know whatever happened to this? Totally bananas


The original poster finally just quit posting. There was a lot of arguing between members on the thread.

His wife finally admitted to an affair while on her trip. She came back pregnant and had an abortion. She came back with an STD that was treated. She hid all this for months.

From the way he describes her as physically and emotionally distant with her children, I think she suspects (or knows) she is HIV positive.


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## sokillme

They don't get worse then that. How do they live with themselves. Sigh...


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## Bibi1031

TDSC60 said:


> The original poster finally just quit posting. There was a lot of arguing between members on the thread.


Exactly! 

I think mods intervened because things were fishy and happening too fast and too soon. It, of course, felt scripted to rile emotions on TAM members. It sure did accomplish that now didn't it? 

Not everything posted here is real or sincere!


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## gridcom

Bibi1031 said:


> Exactly!
> 
> I think mods intervened because things were fishy and happening too fast and too soon. It, of course, felt scripted to rile emotions on TAM members. It sure did accomplish that now didn't it?
> 
> Not everything posted here is real or sincere!


Yeah, it was super over the top. I also questioned if it was real. If it was, it has to be one of the worst ones ever.


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