# I need a different viewpoint



## snerg (Apr 10, 2013)

I guess I'm just slow or dense or perhaps both.

A bit on my outlook of cheating.

I am a firm believer that once you cheat, the marriage/relationship is null and void.

The person you married/got into a relationship with was a lie. Everything they said and did while with you was a lie. There might be some "truth" to them, however, it is so smut covered with lies that you (and perhaps them as well) will never find the truth.

Only possible outcome is divorce/break up.

You can be amicable.
You can co-parent.

However, your current marriage/relationship is finished and burned to ash.

I fully believe that that a cheater did not invest into the relationship as much as I did and I essentially made a bad choice by being with this person.
I walk away never to look back at a cheater as nothing more than a random person on the street *AND *no longer part of my life because they didn't care for me like I cared for them. I cut them out like a disease.

I don't believe in extended anger (I get there will be anger in the beginning but it will burn out quickly as it is not constructive).
I don't believe in revenge.
If my SO was cheating, I do believe in letting the BS know that their partner has been cheating with mine as it is a right and a safety concern for them.

I do not understand reconciliation. However, if you choose it, I will share my view and that will be the end of it and I will accept your choice.

I fully accept that this is my point of view. *It will not change.*

Now with that out of the way, onto the question at hand.

I follow a few marriage sites because there is some genuinely fantastic advice out.

Then I come across the advice that makes me question my sanity.

I was following a story where the betrayed husband found out his wife had been cheating with two guys at the same time.
The BS was understandably upset.
Didn't know what to do and wanted desperately wanted to "fix" the marriage so he could get her back.
The amount of people that stated that reconciliation was a valid option blew my mind.

As Commodus said in Gladiator "This vexes me so."

*WHY*?

If you had a friend that did you dirty like a cheating spouse, wouldn't you get rid of the friend?
If you had a business partner that was stealing from you, wouldn't you get rid of said partner?
If you had cancer, wouldn't you excise the disease?

Why would you want that back?

I see people citing religious reasons.
I see people offering intellectual reasons.
I see people offering experience reasons.

But to me, these reasons all ring very hollow.

As I said earlier, perhaps I am slow or dim or both.

My SO states that my viewpoint on cheating is black and white as with how you deal with a cheater and that I will more than likely never understand a BS that wants to take back a cheater and reconcile.

I will add one final point.
Because I am not infallible:
If a ws works hard.
If a ws does discovery.
If a ws corrects them self.
If a ws removes all the lies.
Then I believe there is a very small possibility of starting a relationship over for some people.
The chance will always be 0% for me, but I can see potential for others if the ws corrects themselves.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

While i agree with you, some people will engage with R for a number of reasons:

1. they betrayed Spouse is still in love with the other person, to the point they will swallow and even rug swept the events because internally they lack the ability to move on.
2. Some stay for the children, but rational dissipates after the children are out of the house and they still stay 
3. Some stay for the Financial reasons, either they can't afford to divorce or the divorce will cost them too much. 
4. Some will stay but in doing so will note the imbalance in their relationship and now play it as a card of control on the cheater either by emotionally blackmailing the cheater or giving themselves the opportunity to stray out of the marriage as a revenge
5. Some with R simply because the cheater knows it was a mistake and the transgression were not severe in action, thus leaving ground for a rebuilding but lost of trust 
6. Some will stay for other reasons Religious, sickness, community or family pressures or even green card statuses..

in the end it even the best R are tainted for the life of the marriage, because regardless of moving on there are triggers that will cause doubt from time to time. anger at one self and at the cheater will flare up. that is human nature.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Why do you need a different viewpoint?

You have your convictions. Other people have theirs. 

Are you just posting out of frustration?

You already know that previous explanations and opinions are hollow to you. Why ask for more?

I'm not familiar with your posts or your history, but this seems like a topic that raises your blood pressure - and it seems like you're doing nothing more than asking for more fuel for the fire.

I seriously doubt that any replies will bring you any sort of peace.


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## Kamstel (Apr 25, 2018)

I agree, but can get tough when you are in the middle of the fecal storm. May take a while for Betrayed Souse to see this and move forward with D


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

snerg said:


> If you had cancer, wouldn't you excise the disease?


The answer lies in your question. My wife has had three instances on breast cancer. Only on the 3rd time did she have a double mastectomy. Many women would have had the mastectomy the first time. Some the second. My wife chose the 3rd. Was she wrong to do so? She had been given excellent advice that the original cancers had been taken care of. And this third time actually was a different cancer, although possibly related to the second.

Everybody's different. In hindsight, should my wife have had her boobs lopped off the first time? Maybe. Does that make it the wrong decision not to have had that done? No.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

@snerg
I fully agree. For me there is no redemption after a physical affair. I don’t care how hard they try or what they are willing to do. Kids or no kids, the marriage ends and revenge is not out of the question.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

@snerg you feel the way you do, and many others feel the same way. But not everyone feels the same way. 

I would not be particularly upset if I found out my wife was cheating. I would want to know why. Its not OK, but just a drunken fling - OK now she's had it. If I was inadequate in some way I'd want to fix it.

She did (I'm pretty sure) cheat on me back when we were dating. Some smooth talking guy who showed her "romance". She dumped me, though she was going to marry the guy. When he got bored he dumped her. She felt used and humiliated - since all her friends knew what was going on. I felt no ill will toward her after that - the natural consequences of making a very bad choice caught up with her. 

I want my wife with me because she feels that there is no one she would prefer to me, not because she feels in any way compelled to be faithful.


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## oldtruck (Feb 15, 2018)

snerg said:


> I guess I'm just slow or dense or perhaps both.
> 
> A bit on my outlook of cheating.
> 
> ...


It is easy to say all of the above.
Specially when one is not a BS.

Easy to forget that the BS was not looking to end their marriage while this affair was going on.
So on D day that mind set has the BS looking to save their marriage.

Easy to ignore financial impact, damage to the children, length of the marriage, retirement,
going from house owner to apartment renter. 

Through the years I have seen people post that if they would become a BS they were going to
divorce. Then when it did happen they wound up choosing recovery.

Neither choice is wrong. It is what is best for that BS.


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## oldtruck (Feb 15, 2018)

The Middleman said:


> @snerg
> I fully agree. For me there is no redemption after a physical affair. I don’t care how hard they try or what they are willing to do. Kids or no kids, the marriage ends and revenge is not out of the question.


Agreeing with the OP does not make that the universally correct decision.
Just the decision that meets your needs. It also just makes you and the OP agree.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

oldtruck said:


> Agreeing with the OP does not make that the universally correct decision.
> Just the decision that meets your needs. It also just makes you and the OP agree.


I never said that it was a universal truth, and I thought that was clear when I said “For me”. It’s just my opinion on how I view it.


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## Music_Man (Feb 25, 2017)

While I get where you're coming from, I think you're painting with an awfully broad stroke. While there are some tendencies and circumstances that tend to be universal, every situation that involves infidelity has it's own unique set of factors for the BS to consider. It's not necessarily black and white with some of us, even though I can see very well where you stand, based on the points in your OP.

You didn't mention if the affair being PA or EA made any difference, so I'm assuming your steadfastness stands the same for either/or.

For me, and understanding that my W's affair was an EA, there are many factors that led me to decide to walk the road to R. There's no way that I could possibly list them all here, but here's a few, in no particular order:

1)History. Our relationship had been great at times, and our connection was and still is undeniable. Read my thread if you want the rundown on what led to that connection weakening, but the connection was reestablished over time and has been stronger than ever. We had a solid foundation. 

2)Her remorse. She has made all of the right steps to date, continues to own her mistakes, and has committed to MC and IC to work on discovery and both personal and relational recovery. 

3)She ended the affair, and took steps to remove herself from the AP (changing jobs, deleting/blocking his #, etc) before I even knew what was happening. Yes, I'm sure part of this was to keep me from finding out, but the facts are facts- when the AP tried to take it physical, she shut it down and shut him out. 

4)I knew I'd be much happier with her than starting over with someone else. I don't want to share new places, restaurants, songs, sunsets, art, etc with someone else. I want to share them with her, and only her...in spite of her indiscretion. And no, I didn't rug sweep or overlook anything- I'm talking about what I see both now and as our future as she continues to make the right choices.

5)It had nothing to do with finances, kids, our house, pressure from family/friends, etc. We're on solid financial ground, our kids are older now, we don't have a mortgage, and most of our families and friends don't know about the A.

I have a feeling this will an interesting thread.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

I tend to agree with your hard line, Snerg.

You know what's always confused the hell out of me?

When a BS finds out their cheater had an affair with someone they know - a sister, a cousin, their friend, their best friend, one of their co-workers, an acquaintance, a neighbor, etc. etc. They forgive their cheater and offer them reconciliation and work their asses off in order to stay with the person who *literally* **** all over them, yet they act like the OM or OW is public enemy #1, the most vile creature on the planet, someone who no longer deserves their forgiveness or understanding, and someone who needs to be banished from the face of the earth forever. And other posters are there encouraging that lopsided dynamic, talking about what a POS the affair partner is while praising all the 'hard work' the cheater is doing to get back in the good graces of their BS.

The truth is, the WS was *JUST* as low as the other person and *JUST* as slimy. It's utterly ridiculous to act as though the WS is somehow 'above' their affair partner. Talk about self delusion.

I also see a lot of BH's calling the OM a POS and acting as though the dirty rotten 'predator' took _advantage_ of their poor little wives and they manipulated her because she was 'vulnerable,' and they make excuse after excuse after excuse for her *unacceptable* behavior all while putting their precious, victimized hothouse flower right back up on that pedestal.  Some go and scare off their wife's affair partner and think that's some kind of 'win' for themselves because they took away their wife's lover and made the choice FOR her that her affair is now over. Now the wife is suddenly kissing her BH's ass only because he's now her *only* option when just the day before (when she still had her OM) she had *little to no interest in her BH at all*. Amazing how that level of interest goes up to 100% when she's caught, isn't it? How in the hell is that a _win_ for the BH? I've never seen such skewed 'logic' like this in my life.



> I will add one final point.
> Because I am not infallible:
> If a ws works hard.
> If a ws does discovery.
> ...


Sadly, it seems most BS's want to stay with their cheaters bad enough that they'll accept a *whole lot less* than what you listed here. They'll accept a partial list, some will accept just one or two of those things, and some will just delude themselves into believing their cheater is doing everything on the list - until they catch their cheater cheating again. 

Personally, I have to agree with that lady in the T.E.D. talk (Esther Pereil?) when she spoke about infidelity and said, 'staying is the new shame.'


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## oldtruck (Feb 15, 2018)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> I tend to agree with your hard line, Snerg.
> 
> You know what's always confused the hell out of me?
> 
> ...


Sadly I keep seeing posts stating that why does the AP get all the blame, what about the WS.

For recovery to happen the BS needs to forgive the WS.
There is no need, and there will never be a reason, for the AP to be forgiven.


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## MaiChi (Jun 20, 2018)

Cheating is a final statement on the marriage. if it is not, then the problem is not with the cheater but with the cheated who refuses to accept a final statement on the marriage. If I cheated on my husband. if he tried to forgive me I would totally refuse to be forgiven. I would have to leave regardless of what he wants to do and regardless of whom or how i cheated on him. If he cheated I would not waste my time asking him questions about it. I would just know it is over and we need to go our separate ways. Nothing could be said to improve or worsen the situation. 

It is like writing off your car, That is it. You will not get it back no matter what you say. If you want a car you got to get a new one. Only option

That is my view point.


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## colingrant (Nov 6, 2017)

Answers on here are as diverse as the circumstances that lead people to cheat. With that being said, I've also wondered and still find it hard to believe the insanity of some reconciliations. I've been a BS twice, so I've been there. Having said that, the initial period following DD is experienced differently and it's the period I typically try offer understanding of the BS's mindset that's hit with the first wave of trauma. Trauma is immediate and clouds reason and logic in the same way limerence and the fog (I HATE THAT F'N TERM) have overtaken the WS. It's the fog in reverse in a sense. 

But let me tell you. It is painful as hell to read a man's post whose wife has tapped there best friend, brother, cousin, boss, neighbor or whatever the f and say as the poster said above, immediately seeks reconciliation and then focuses all of their hate and disdain to the AP. It's actually sad to see and I'm saddened and actually embarrassed for those that express themselves in this way. At the same time though, I attempt to give them the benefit of the doubt for the aforementioned reasons related to the traumatizing nature of such news. In essence, the news threatens to reroute the course of one's life and that's some heavy stuff.

After the BS gets their feet underneath them and have digested everything and the WS is still hemming and hawing that's a different story. This is where you find out a lot of what a person thinks of themselves in many, but not all instances. I was 100% positive I would be okay and in fact would thrive to be in a better relationship when I was cheated on twice consecutively by the way. I had zero qualms on moving on. Zip. 

My pride was terribly shaken, but I refused to concede to fears of having to find someone. In fact, my thought was, I need no one to make me, but was open to meeting someone who could compliment me, as I was going to be happy, somehow, some way, regardless. 

I don't think many from what I can tell come to this, as their words and actions speak otherwise. With respect to loving their WS. I've concluded, I'm not sure many fully understand the components of a loving relationship. It requires respect and trust to go along with the love. And it's not love and the respect and trust under it. It's respect and trust ALONG SIDE of the love, as equal prerequisites. 

A real or successful relationship cannot exists without trust and respect, so I'm amazed when I read, "I'm reconciling because I lover her/him". Women who stay with men who abuse them love them, but the wife can't trust a man who is capable and willing to physically harm them. Nor can she respect a man who is physically superior and strikes her. In fact, it's also that they don't even respect themselves, which I believe is where many BS find themselves, without self-respect. Without it, one is simply along for the ride and will allow the WS to pretty much direct how, when and where things will go. 

This isn't a relationship. It's a companionship that's tolerated because love is there, but respect, (both self and for partner) and trust are missing, and the BS is either fearful of taking action to gain respect or have no self-respect for themselves. Trust and respect aren't aren't bonuses. They are foundation pillars upon which relationships are built on and immovable for relationships' sustainability. In the two years I've been a member, rarely do I hear betrayed spouses utter any words other than love for reconciling, as if it's all there is, when it's actually just a part (a major part) of what's needed. I've often asked the BS do they respect themselves? Do they respect their WS? Do they trust the WS? Typically I don't get a reply back.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

uhtred said:


> @snerg you feel the way you do, and many others feel the same way. But not everyone feels the same way.
> 
> I would not be particularly upset if I found out my wife was cheating. I would want to know why. Its not OK, but just a drunken fling - OK now she's had it. If I was inadequate in some way I'd want to fix it.
> 
> ...


It sounds like you're okay with becoming blan b which is exactly what it looks like happened. You say you want her to be there because there's nobody she'd rather be with... and yet she let you know there was someone else she'd rather be with and only felt compelled to return when he didnt work out. 

It's great you harbor no I'll will, but it sounds like your marital problems may be the direct result of you settling for her settling for you.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

oldtruck said:


> Sadly I keep seeing posts stating that why does the AP get all the blame, what about the WS.
> 
> For recovery to happen the BS needs to forgive the WS.
> There is no need, and there will never be a reason, for the AP to be forgiven.


Who gets the blame and who gets forgiven are two different things. 

That the WS is forgiven doesn't imply that they are relieved from blame. They are still to blame for the affair.

If they are not to blame, then there is nothing to forgive!

If the blame is ignored, that's rug sweeping which is no grounds for reconciliation.


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## snerg (Apr 10, 2013)

minimalME said:


> Why do you need a different viewpoint?
> 
> You have your convictions. Other people have theirs.
> 
> ...


Not out of frustration.
But confusion.

I think this discussion can be a thought exercise

Also not looking for fuel to burn the pyre higher.

I can liken reconciliation to this(perhaps poor) example:
Lat's say you saw someone hitting their hand with a hammer, wouldn't you ask "why are you hitting you hand with a hammer?"

You know that hitting your hand with a hammer is painful. Damaging. Destructive.
You know they know this.

You talk with them to make sure that they understand that not hitting their hand with a hammer is their best option. They agree with you that not hitting their hand is the best option.

Yet they keep hitting their hand with the hammer.

You ask them "Why do you continue to hit your hand with a hammer?"

And the answer is "because it will feel so good when I stop"

This is how reconciling with a cheater appears to me.

Perhaps my black and white view is as obtuse as my so claims it is.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

She found out he was all words and not actions. A liar willing to say anything to get into her pants. Not someone she wants to be with. The person he pretended to be never existed.



Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> It sounds like you're okay with becoming blan b which is exactly what it looks like happened. You say you want her to be there because there's nobody she'd rather be with... and yet she let you know there was someone else she'd rather be with and only felt compelled to return when he didnt work out.
> 
> It's great you harbor no I'll will, but it sounds like your marital problems may be the direct result of you settling for her settling for you.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I'm not opposed to reconciliation in some circumstances and very much against it in others.

It is deadly serious damage to marriage in any circumstances where the marriage and fidelity is cherished.

Personally, I would split over an affair. It would be a choice against me and I have made my boundaries well known.

I might work through a drunken slip or an EA that caught her through sneaky means, like the water being slowly heated around a frog.

A lot would depend on her behavior immediately after a drunken slip or when called out on an inappropriate friendship.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

uhtred said:


> She found out he was all words and not actions. A liar willing to say anything to get into her pants. Not someone she wants to be with. The person he pretended to be never existed.


I had couple of gals try this with me. They wanted to try someone on for size and thought they could pick me back up later.

They were in my rearview mirror the moment they started looking elsewhere.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Some R's work and some don't. Many think they would never R until it happens to them. Some discover the cheater never stops cheating. People choose differently. I might not understand it but I don't have to. Neither do you.


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## VermiciousKnid (Nov 14, 2017)

With my multi-decade experience with divorce I will say that your view of cheating and subsequent plan of action for BS’s has been the quickest path back to emotional well-being for clients I’ve worked with that felt and acted as you described.


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## oldtruck (Feb 15, 2018)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Who gets the blame and who gets forgiven are two different things.
> 
> That the WS is forgiven doesn't imply that they are relieved from blame. They are still to blame for the affair.
> 
> ...


Blame. So we will change that to anger. There is still no reason for the BS to forgive the AP.
For recovery the BS has to forgive the WS. You can forgive yet not forget. That is the message.

Sometimes people focus too hard on one word that they miss the intent, meaning, the point,
of a post.

I sometimes think that I need to use Grammarly, hire a lawyer, or both to edit my posts
before I hit submit reply.


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