# Any books on how to get your wife to dress better and wear makeup?



## Looking2Change

I read His Needs Her Needs and I honestly felt like the book was written for ME. HAHA I will say the parts about how men are visual and why it's important for the woman to look nice for their husbands if it's important to their husband. That said, this has been a major issue within our relationship.

My wife used to dress up and wear makeup and always had her nails done before we were married and these were things that were SUPER important to me. Once we got married the nails came off and the makeup pretty much stopped along with her dressing sexy.

We've been married for 12 1/2 years now and it's just gotten worse. Whenever I bring it up she says that I'm trying to change her and this is who she is blah blah blah. I'm trying to get her to read His Needs Her Needs but she doesn't feel the need. I explained to her that it will open her eyes to see what's missing in our relationship. I presented it in a way that I was doing things that I thought were good for our relationship and because reading this book I now realize how they were making things worse.

Anyways, I'm curious if these is a book or even a great article that I can share with her that clearly explains why this is important to me and that I'm not trying to change her. Or, if I am trying to change her I'm trying to change her back to what she sold me before and when we got married.


----------



## EleGirl

I don't know if there is an article like you are looking for. But, from what you say, it sounds like she would not read it anyway.

One of the major problems in your marriage seems to be that your wife does not take you seriously. I think that it would help you to emphasize to her that while she does not thing that there are any problems in the marriage, you do. And if they are not addressed, you are not sure this is a marriage you want to stay in. 

What are the other problems you have with the marriage?


----------



## Married but Happy

Find reruns or streaming versions of the TV show "What Not to Wear." If that doesn't inspire her, then you may be out of luck.

Or, if you dress and groom in a way she likes, start to dress and groom in a manner she really dislikes. When she complains (as she almost certainly will), ask her why it is important and why she is trying to change you for her pleasure, but she is unwilling to do the same when you ask? (Choose something you can stand to maintain for a long time, if necessary - this may take a while!)


----------



## DustyDog

She sounds like the girl-next-door type that I prefer.

In the 42 years since I went on my first date, I think I've been with a woman who wears makeup perhaps a dozen times. My W owns none and neither did my ex, nor either of the two LTRs in college.

And, since I have social anxiety, I did not pick these women - they approached me first, so it seems those who don't wear makeup selectively choose me!


----------



## Married but Happy

She sounds like the bait and switch type that I don't prefer! LOL


----------



## tigerlily99

Do you take her out to nice places that would inspire her to dress up?
Or is that not something she likes? 
This is a hard situation I think because of course you love her the way she is but you enjoy it when she dresses up for you and looks beautiful.
Just don't ever compare her to anyone else. Or comment on how so-and-so always looks to nice and dresses up, etc.

Sorry I only have a 'what not to do' scenario.


----------



## katiecrna

What is your lifestyle like? It's hard to get all dressed up, make up, hair, nails if you stay home the majority of the time. Examine your expectation of how she dresses and is it realistic. 
Yes wives need to look nice. Bu expecting her to have a face full of makeup everyday all day and wear sexy clothes everyday might be asking too much. Especially if she is a busy women/mother, it may not be her priority and I don't blame her. You can look nice without having a face full of makeup and tight sexy clothes on.


----------



## Catherine602

If she thinks you want her to read the book to prove you are right and she is wrong then it won't work. 

Why not read it and use the info to make changes that will improve your marriage without referring to what your wife should do. Changing yourself first may make it easier to convince her to meet your needs on the make-up front.


----------



## turnera

What needs of hers are you meeting?


----------



## SimplyAmorous

One of your needs is "Attractiveness" - pretty common for men.. one of the emotional needs on Harley's list of 10..... some will try to tell you ..."You are shallow"...

Personally I don't think that is fair.. anymore than women caring about "Financial Stability" in a relationship.. in case she gets pregnant someday, and may be home with a child/ children, she has more of a need of this..

Then we come back to the Man is visual...looks can EXCITE him and draw him to his partner.. 

Has there been a disconnect in your wanting to be with her intimately over this ??.. if she feels that.. and cares about it.. this would be a good motivator..

Maybe she just doesn't care.. If so...why ?


----------



## MattMatt

Well, let's see what looks better, huh? Makeup or no makeup?



















Hmmm...


----------



## 225985

turnera said:


> What needs of hers are you meeting?


None. His wife has lyme disease and is depressed and in his last thread was complaining about lack of sex.


----------



## MattMatt

blueinbr said:


> None. His wife has lyme disease and is depressed and in his last thread was complaining about lack of sex.


Ah. The I think the book he is seeking is 

My Needs, My Needs.

_How to get what you want whilst giving your spouse very little in return._

The author is Lou Zing and the publisher is Una Relación Cara Press, and it costs €5.50c.


----------



## turnera

If that's true, then why are you wasting time trying to change her? Why aren't you instead focusing on helping her improve her life so that she can focus on the marriage again? As I said, what needs are you meeting?


----------



## SimplyAmorous

MattMatt said:


> Well, let's see what looks better, huh? Makeup or no makeup?


 this looks like a DOLL.. is she real ?



> Hmmm...


 this woman is naturally appealing - at least I think so.. my husband feels many women don't need make up.. but some do.. that's his take. 

As a woman.. I generally feel we look better if we use SOME.. but too much looks bad.. everyone has their opinions.. but a good make over can do wonders ... 














These women are real knock outs with some make up, fixing their hair.. maybe add some heels.. 

Even us women... we like it when our guys dress up , look & smell good.. not every day in the same dirty clothes...it ups the







in us...


----------



## Looking2Change

blueinbr said:


> None. His wife has lyme disease and is depressed and in his last thread was complaining about lack of sex.


Let me clarify this. This is not something I'm trying to change right now. It is something I've thinking more long term.

As for what her needs are currently being met: Let's just say I've been doing pretty much EVERYTHING. Cooking, cleaning, working, taking care of our son, taking her to all her appointments, getting her meds, laundry, BASICALLY EVERYTHING....

She appreciates all that I've done and is feeling better so we've been out and about more. Just because she is recovering from Lyme Disease doesn't mean the end of our relationship.

Her doctor expects her to be 100% cured within the next month and she's currently at about 85%. Don't try to paint me as being a loser in this situation because I've been anything but. Like everyone we have problems within our marriage and I want to make them better.

If you're trying to say I'm selfish that's pretty funny. The past few years this relationship has been 1-sided with me not getting my needs met. (THIS IS NOT BECAUSE OF THE LYME- This started Memorial Day weekend)


----------



## MattMatt

SimplyAmorous said:


> this looks like a DOLL.. is she real ?
> 
> this woman is naturally appealing - at least I think so.. my husband feels many women don't need make up.. but some do.. that's his take.
> 
> As a woman.. I generally feel we look better if we use SOME.. but too much looks bad.. everyone has their opinions.. but a good make over can do wonders ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These women are real knock outs with some make up, fixing their hair.. maybe add some heels..
> 
> Even us women... we like it when our guys dress up , look & smell good.. not every day in the same dirty clothes...it ups the
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> in us...


With the makeup, OK. Without they look much hotter to me.


----------



## MattMatt

When2Leave said:


> Let me clarify this. This is not something I'm trying to change right now. It is something I've thinking more long term.
> 
> As for what her needs are currently being met: Let's just say I've been doing pretty much EVERYTHING. Cooking, cleaning, working, taking care of our son, taking her to all her appointments, getting her meds, laundry, BASICALLY EVERYTHING....
> 
> She appreciates all that I've done and is feeling better so we've been out and about more. Just because she is recovering from Lyme Disease doesn't mean the end of our relationship.
> 
> Her doctor expects her to be 100% cured within the next month and she's currently at about 85%. Don't try to paint me as being a loser in this situation because I've been anything but. Like everyone we have problems within our marriage and I want to make them better.
> 
> If you're trying to say I'm selfish that's pretty funny. The past few years this relationship has been 1-sided with me not getting my needs met. (THIS IS NOT BECAUSE OF THE LYME- This started Memorial Day weekend)


Welcome to the world of being an unpaid carer for a sickly spouse.

I think you need to Google what help might be available for unpaid carers in your area.


----------



## turnera

When2Leave said:


> Let me clarify this. This is not something I'm trying to change right now. It is something I've thinking more long term.
> 
> As for what her needs are currently being met: Let's just say I've been doing pretty much EVERYTHING. Cooking, cleaning, working, taking care of our son, taking her to all her appointments, getting her meds, laundry, BASICALLY EVERYTHING....
> 
> She appreciates all that I've done and is feeling better so we've been out and about more. Just because she is recovering from Lyme Disease doesn't mean the end of our relationship.
> 
> Her doctor expects her to be 100% cured within the next month and she's currently at about 85%. Don't try to paint me as being a loser in this situation because I've been anything but. Like everyone we have problems within our marriage and I want to make them better.
> 
> If you're trying to say I'm selfish that's pretty funny. The past few years this relationship has been 1-sided with me not getting my needs met. (THIS IS NOT BECAUSE OF THE LYME- This started Memorial Day weekend)


Oh, then, thanks for answering my question. So if Lyme Disease is a new occurrence, what was your relationship like before that? Who was doing what? What Love Busters were going on? What was being done to rectify those? Were you spending 10 hours a week together away from the kids? You've read the book; you know the drill. More info, please.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

MattMatt said:


> With the makeup, OK. Without they look much hotter to me.


We all have differences of opinion , of course..

My H was in the room just now.. so I called him over & asked his opinion of the 3 examples I gave.... his response was they all looked better WITH.. then added "the top one. she could make it but the rest look better with what they got"...

2 of our sons prefer their GF's without make up...3rd son has even commented to his GF about it...to not wear it... its kinda like tattoos in a way.. some love 'em, dig them , others find it a turn off.. 

This husband (the original poster) however, must feel his wife could spruce things up a bit .. this could be similar to a man insisting on growing a beard having a wife not attracted to that, it bothering her ... (I'd be one of those)... 

I think it's important to please our partners - at least meet somewhere in the middle..


----------



## jld

Married but Happy said:


> Or, if you dress and groom in a way she likes, start to dress and groom in a manner she really dislikes.


This might make her laugh. It would make me laugh. 

If she loves you, she loves *you,* OP. However you are dressed.


----------



## *Deidre*

blueinbr said:


> None. His wife has lyme disease and is depressed and in his last thread was complaining about lack of sex.


If this is the case, then she probably just feels down about herself and life in general. Dressing up to impress her husband is probably not high on her list, if she doesn't feel well physically and mentally.


----------



## 225985

MattMatt said:


> Welcome to the world of being an unpaid carer for a sickly spouse.
> 
> 
> 
> I think you need to Google what help might be available for unpaid carers in your area.




Yep, welcome to the group.


----------



## EleGirl

SimplyAmorous said:


> These women are real knock outs with some make up, fixing their hair.. maybe add some heels..
> 
> Even us women... we like it when our guys dress up , look & smell good.. not every day in the same dirty clothes...it ups the
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> in us...


I believe that I've seen these pictures before. These women are porn stars.. aka prostitutes. Their makeup is very thick for the purpose of being on the camera. To hold any normal/real woman to that standard is wrong.


----------



## EleGirl

SimplyAmorous said:


> MattMatt said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, let's see what looks better, huh? Makeup or no makeup?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> this looks like a DOLL.. is she real ?
Click to expand...

Yes she is real. She has a youtube channel all about how the fact that she makes herself up to look like Barbie and other dolls.


----------



## MattMatt

@SimplyAmorous Sadly she is very real and is attempting to make herself look like Barbi.


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

The problem is all in how we are socialized. The more we are told the woman in makeup is the beautiful one, the more we internalize this. Both men AND women.

Then, people won't find a woman attractive for her natural skin or hair colour or facial shape. Women feel unattractive unless they spend ages putting on a fake appearance, and men overlook women who aren't putting on that fake appearance, or are disappointed by the woman when she doesn't.

Those three women aren't even posing attractively, or under the same lighting and photo angle like they are in the made-up photos. Those comparisons have gone out of their way to make the before and after as different as possible to help make their point.

People want to be loved for who they are day to day, rolling out of bed first thing in the morning, in the middle of an allergy attack, or just having been licked in the face by their dog. Not strictly for only who they are after an hour of professional attention for a photoshoot, and viewed with disappointment all the other times.

That said, I can't stand people who present themselves one way, and then change after marriage. It's like "I caught you! I don't have to work it anymore!" Just give me the honest 'you' during the courtship and let me see how marriage might truly be.

Give me a woman with the self-esteem to go barefaced, and we'll get along much better.


----------



## turnera

Hopeful Cynic said:


> That said, I can't stand people who present themselves one way, and then change after marriage. It's like "I caught you! I don't have to work it anymore!" Just give me the honest 'you' during the courtship and let me see how marriage might truly be.


Unfortunately, it's human nature. Meaning, it's common on BOTH sides of the aisle. I had NO idea my H was a slob as well as a misgonynist (women do all the housework), because his mom was living with him when I met him and when I moved in, and once she moved out, the house fell apart because she was no longer there to take care of her baby.

It's also why my #1 advise is never to date a woman until you've been her friend first, to see who she REALLY is, as she's not trying to impress (aka lying) her date. Same goes for the opposite sex.


----------



## 225985

Ok, your house has a bad foundation. The walls are cracking. The roof is starting to cave in and you are asking for a book on how to paint your house. 

You already had all the advice you need in your first thread, post #3.


----------



## Looking2Change

blueinbr said:


> Ok, your house has a bad foundation. The walls are cracking. The roof is starting to cave in and you are asking for a book on how to paint your house.
> 
> You already had all the advice you need in your first thread, post #3.


We've had this talk and she said she is not depressed and is not willing to look into this.


----------



## Looking2Change

Also, as far as wanting my wife to wear makeup I'm not talking every day but once in a while and not to look like a porn star. Doing her eyes and wearing lipstick is all I'm asking of her once a week or so. Not looking for anything crazy.


----------



## Looking2Change

SimplyAmorous said:


> this looks like a DOLL.. is she real ?
> 
> this woman is naturally appealing - at least I think so.. my husband feels many women don't need make up.. but some do.. that's his take.
> 
> As a woman.. I generally feel we look better if we use SOME.. but too much looks bad.. everyone has their opinions.. but a good make over can do wonders ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These women are real knock outs with some make up, fixing their hair.. maybe add some heels..
> 
> Even us women... we like it when our guys dress up , look & smell good.. not every day in the same dirty clothes...it ups the
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> in us...


The women in this on the left are not at all attractive to me. On the right they are very attractive. Well, except for the middle one she's not attractive in either picture.


----------



## 225985

When2Leave said:


> We've had this talk and she said she is not depressed and is not willing to look into this.




Yes, that eventuality was addressed in the same referenced post. So are you going to leave? What is your fear?

So you are willing to accept a bad marriage if your wife puts on makeup and a better dress,

Just google a book or go to Amazon if that is what you are looking for.


----------



## turnera

When2Leave said:


> We've had this talk and she said she is not depressed and is not willing to look into this.


So what is your boundary? What consequences are you willing to enact to protect either you or your marriage?

If a spouse is suffering depression and is lethargic, nonresponsive, sleeping all day, whatever, YOU become her caretaker and are obliged to either get family/friends to help you connect to her or else contact official services to get her help.


----------



## Starstarfish

While makeup does arguably help in some cases, if there is a level of stark difference as with the examples of how your wife looks like before and after, how could you honestly be telling her you find her attractive without extreme makeup?

When you need five or six colors of foundation to create a master palette for contouring that's not makeup, you are trying to look like an entirely different person.


----------



## turnera

When2Leave said:


> Also, as far as wanting my wife to wear makeup I'm not talking every day but once in a while and not to look like a porn star. Doing her eyes and wearing lipstick is all I'm asking of her once a week or so. Not looking for anything crazy.


Honestly, as a woman, there's a lot more involved in this than just wanting liptstick on your wife. I wore long hair for 30 years solely because it was what my husband wanted. But what does SHE want? Is there real communication between two of you? Are you both feeling safe to tell each other the truth? We need more data.


----------



## uhtred

I personally don't like makeup on women, but i understand that a lot of guys do. I think that in a good relationship each person tries to do what they can to make the other happy. It sounds like the OP is trying, but his wife isn't. That is really sad.


----------



## 225985

Does she walk 10 feet behind you? Because you have a lot more marriage problems than just makeup?


----------



## Looking2Change

blueinbr said:


> Does she walk 10 feet behind you? Because you have a lot more marriage problems than just makeup?


She doesn't walk 10 feet behind me. Not sure why you need to be a ****.

our marriage isn't all bad. Right now it is extra difficult because she has been sick. The reality of my wife is that she is a home-body. She likes to be around the house. She isn't big on going out and doing a lot. What more can I say? 

As for the depression, I honestly don't even know if she is. She likes to relax and is not someone that wants to go out and experience a lot. She never really liked going on vacations. When I would bring it up she would tell me to go buy a new snowmobile or something. Because of this we started camping 7 years ago and that has been great. We camp seasonally so we get to spend a lot of family time together when we go.

People in here ask why I don't leave and honestly I do love my wife. I'm very attracted to her and we mostly have fun together. There are things I need to improve in the marriage in order to be fully happy. When I first came to this site my goal was to leave her. The more I think about leaving her the less it appeals to me. It's not because I fear I will be alone because I don't have a scarcity mentality I just truly do love her.

As for being criticized because I want my wife to occasionally wear makeup that's total B.S. I'm sorry if there are certain things that I like and if it offends other women oh well. Just as women don't want a guy that can't provide guys don't want a woman that doesn't try to impress their man any longer.

I'm not asking my wife to look like the girls in the example here. My wife is beautiful without makeup unlike those women. With makeup she is just an enhanced version of herself not someone else. There is a HUGE difference there. I don't want her plastered in makeup like those women just simple eye shadow and lipstick. She has flawless skin so she doesn't need foundation or contouring or any of that crap.


----------



## turnera

Do you want her to wear makeup at home? Or are you saying you want he to wear makeup and go OUT with you? Two different things?


----------



## Looking2Change

turnera said:


> Do you want her to wear makeup at home? Or are you saying you want he to wear makeup and go OUT with you? Two different things?


Once in a while when we go out. I'm not talking every day or anything like that. Once a week or once every other week etc. is perfectly fine.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

EleGirl said:


> I believe that I've seen these pictures before. These women are porn stars.. aka prostitutes. Their makeup is very thick for the purpose of being on the camera. To hold any normal/real woman to that standard is wrong.


Well I feel pretty stupid then..it was just a google search on my part.. and If so.. I had no idea.. sorry for joining the conversation here... my bad.

Though I'm not holding anyone to any standard.. not really... it's just an opinion like anyone else.. not worth much.. ya know.. I think it's too much make up personally...


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Hopeful Cynic said:


> *People want to be loved for who they are day to day, rolling out of bed first thing in the morning, in the middle of an allergy attack, or just having been licked in the face by their dog. Not strictly for only who they are after an hour of professional attention for a photoshoot, and viewed with disappointment all the other times.
> 
> That said, I can't stand people who present themselves one way, and then change after marriage. It's like "I caught you! I don't have to work it anymore!" Just give me the honest 'you' during the courtship and let me see how marriage might truly be.
> 
> Give me a woman with the self-esteem to go barefaced, and we'll get along much better.*


 I agree with all this.. even if it may not seem I would.. Great post !!


----------



## 225985

EleGirl said:


> I believe that I've seen these pictures before. These women are porn stars.. aka prostitutes. Their makeup is very thick for the purpose of being on the camera. To hold any normal/real woman to that standard is wrong.




Add to that if these are porn stars then very few guys will be looking at their faces anyway. 

Btw many mainstream stars look average at best without makeup but look stunning with pro makeup that few can match.


----------



## soccermom2three

I don't know how you dress everyday but if you up your game, maybe she will follow? Get a new haircut, make sure your personal hygiene is good, dress better, update your wardrobe. Even if you're going to the hardware store or running errands, always try to look put together. She might decide that she doesn't want to be the dumpy wife next to her husband.


----------



## 225985

soccermom2three said:


> I don't know how you dress everyday but if you up your game, maybe she will follow? Get a new haircut, make sure your personal hygiene is good, dress better, update your wardrobe. Even if you're going to the hardware store or running errands, always try to look put together. She might decide that she doesn't want to be the dumpy wife next to her husband.




Normally great advice but in his case she will either not react or think he is cheating. My wife assumed the latter when i upped my game.


----------



## bandit.45

I recommend Hustler magazine, but that's just me.


----------



## farsidejunky

soccermom2three said:


> I don't know how you dress everyday but if you up your game, maybe she will follow? Get a new haircut, make sure your personal hygiene is good, dress better, update your wardrobe. Even if you're going to the hardware store or running errands, always try to look put together. She might decide that she doesn't want to be the dumpy wife next to her husband.


This.

My wife is much the same way as yours about make up. She is also insecure. 

When I want her to dress nice, I will up my clothing a tad, and she normally reciprocates. We sometimes go to church separately due to me having to be there early most Sundays. I sometimes dress nicer than normal (casual attire in our service) and she will arrive after me. She normally makes a comment about it, something along the lines of:

"Here you are all dressed up, and I am only in jeans and a tee shirt."

So, you could try SM2T's suggestion, but I don't think this will solve your problem.

Your problem is that you don't feel like your wife prioritizes you, so when she doesn't wear make up after you have asked her to, you experience rejection...again.

BTDT. Improve your emotional intimacy anf she will be more likely to follow suit. If she won't work with you to improve the emotional intimacy, then it may be time for destabilizing.


----------



## farsidejunky

blueinbr said:


> Normally great advice but in his case she will either not react or think he is cheating. My wife assumed the latter when i upped my game.


Because her gut knew that you were, or at least trying to.

Be clear on that, Blue.


----------



## Lostme

I'm a female, and see nothing wrong with you wanting your wife to dress up once in awhile.


----------



## turnera

When2Leave said:


> Once in a while when we go out. I'm not talking every day or anything like that. Once a week or once every other week etc. is perfectly fine.


Ok then, I would say to approach it to her as this: Wife, have we ever talked about emotional needs? I read about it once in a book and it makes all the sense in the world. You know how I've asked you to wear a little bit of makeup once in a while when we go out? I figured out why. It's because one of my emotional needs, which is tied to my feelings about myself - pride, ego, manliness - is to be able to go out with my wife on my arm and to see all those people's eyes on you, and then on me, thinking lucky guy. THAT makes me feel good. Meets my need. Now I know you aren't that into makeup. And I know you're gorgeous without makeup; I really do. But here's the thing: when we're at home and I look at you, I'm flat out in love and happy as a clam. But when we go out every so often, it's like, well, then we're in 'society' (use the air quotes) and part of that includes conforming to society at least to a point, to enjoy being part of it. It's why I wear a tie when we go to a nice restaurant, or why you may wear high heels. But I've realized that an important part of that 'being in society' thing, at least for me, is seeing my wife all dolled up, dressed to kill, and - yes- sporting a little eye shadow or lipstick. I don't want you to change into some movie star type or anything, it would just make me happy. So with that in mind, and knowing it's kind of important to me, can we just discuss here for a minute what you really have against it? I really do want to know, and I'm not going to push you to do something that makes you feel bad, but I'd really like to know what your feelings are behind it.


----------



## NobodySpecial

When2Leave said:


> I read His Needs Her Needs and I honestly felt like the book was written for ME. HAHA I will say the parts about how men are visual and why it's important for the woman to look nice for their husbands if it's important to their husband. That said, this has been a major issue within our relationship.
> 
> My wife used to dress up and wear makeup and always had her nails done before we were married and these were things that were SUPER important to me. Once we got married the nails came off and the makeup pretty much stopped along with her dressing sexy.
> 
> We've been married for 12 1/2 years now and it's just gotten worse. Whenever I bring it up she says that I'm trying to change her and this is who she is *blah blah blah*.


Red flag. Do you generally come across as dismissive of her views?



> I'm trying to get her to read His Needs Her Needs but she doesn't feel the need. I explained to her that it will open her eyes to see what's missing in our relationship.


What does SHE think is missing in your relationship? If she says nothing and is just coasting, I would recommend marriage counseling. If she won't go, YOU go. It sends a Crystal Clear message that YOU view there is something wrong.


----------



## Maricha75

turnera said:


> I don't want you to change into some movie star type or anything, it would just make me happy. So with that in mind, and knowing it's kind of important to me, can we just discuss here for a minute what you really have against it? I really do want to know, and I'm not going to push you to do something that makes you feel bad, but I'd really like to know what your feelings are behind it.


And what if she replies that she just doesn't want to wear makeup anymore? Personally, I don't see the point in it. I used to wear makeup, in my teens and early twenties, but I don't now. Sure, I occasionally would put some on for family photos and such, but it always looked fake, no matter how "natutal" it looked to others. So, I just completely stopped wearing it. Fortunately, my husband prefers no makeup. And, whether this is the point he is trying to get across or not, I would bet that when he brings up the "I wish you would wear makeup" argument, she hears "You don't look good enough to me. Put some makeup on so you look good." Chances are, even if he tries the approach you suggested, she would still hear "You're not good enough" and still wouldn't wear it. 

If he were my husband, I would say, "Too damn bad. I'm not putting it on."

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## turnera

Then you're not listening to what makes your husband happy. Or not caring.

The reason I suggested the discussion I laid out is because it's about HIM, not her. It's about HIS needs, what makes HIM happy. And assuming he's already meeting HER needs, it's a legitimate EN of his.


----------



## 225985

Maricha75 said:


> And what if she replies that she just doesn't want to wear makeup anymore? Personally, I don't see the point in it. I used to wear makeup, in my teens and early twenties, but I don't now. Sure, I occasionally would put some on for family photos and such, but it always looked fake, no matter how "natutal" it looked to others. So, I just completely stopped wearing it. Fortunately, my husband prefers no makeup. And, whether this is the point he is trying to get across or not, I would bet that when he brings up the "I wish you would wear makeup" argument, she hears "You don't look good enough to me. Put some makeup on so you look good." Chances are, even if he tries the approach you suggested, she would still hear "You're not good enough" and still wouldn't wear it.
> 
> If he were my husband, I would say, "Too damn bad. I'm not putting it on."
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk




They stop with the makeup. 
They stop with the household chores. 
They stop with the sex. 

Because they are now married. 

And when the husband asks, the response is "too damn bad". 

Then they post in CWI.


----------



## DustyDog

blueinbr said:


> Then they post in CWI.


What is CWI?


----------



## Maricha75

blueinbr said:


> They stop with the makeup.
> They stop with the household chores.
> They stop with the sex.
> 
> Because they are now married.
> 
> And when the husband asks, the response is "too damn bad".
> 
> Then they post in CWI.


Not even close. Makeup yes. Chores, no. Sex, no. Good try, though.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## 225985

Maricha75 said:


> Not even close. Makeup yes. Chores, no. Sex, no. Good try, though.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk




Not you. But I am referring to the wives of many TAMers.


----------



## 225985

DustyDog said:


> What is CWI?




The Coping with Infidelity forum.


----------



## Maricha75

turnera said:


> Then you're not listening to what makes your husband happy. Or not caring.
> 
> The reason I suggested the discussion I laid out is because it's about HIM, not her. It's about HIS needs, what makes HIM happy. And assuming he's already meeting HER needs, it's a legitimate EN of his.


Which is why I asked what happens if she says she just does not want to wear makeup, and won't. If she sees it as a waste of time and money and nothing he can present will change that opinion, then what? She can look beautiful without it. And even the comparisons that were posted earlier in this thread... I think the women without it looked better. The others looked fake.

And, yes, turnera, I do listen to what makes my husband happy. And if it does not cross MY values, I am fine with doing what makes him happy. If I don't see an expense as being worth the cost, I won't.

And I truly don't see how a woman wearing makeup can be a legitimate emotional need. Smh.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## farsidejunky

Maricha75 said:


> And I truly don't see how a woman wearing makeup can be a legitimate emotional need.


You sort of had me until this.

Just because you don't understand it does not make it unimportant. In fact, minimizing or shaming the need is incredibly disrespectful.


----------



## vel

Your wife has flawless skin. Makeup will damage that beautiful skin over time! Yes, even simply eyeshadow. The skin around the eyes is thin and will wrinkle with the tugging, the harsh makeup, etc. Makeup can also irritate skin (especially around the eyes) and even a little bit can make eyelids feel tired.

Lipstick tastes gross, can be drying, and leaves stains on cups. I recommend chapstick with slight colour, such as Burts Bee's pomegranate oil. It will give her a bit of colour with the added benefit of protection and doesn't stain things much.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NobodySpecial

Maricha75 said:


> Which is why I asked what happens if she says she just does not want to wear makeup, and won't. If she sees it as a waste of time and money and nothing he can present will change that opinion, then what? She can look beautiful without it. And even the comparisons that were posted earlier in this thread... I think the women without it looked better. The others looked fake.
> 
> And, yes, turnera, I do listen to what makes my husband happy. And if it does not cross MY values, I am fine with doing what makes him happy. If I don't see an expense as being worth the cost, I won't.
> 
> And I truly don't see how a woman wearing makeup can be a legitimate emotional need. Smh.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


I agree with this. Not every request is an emotional NEED. An emotional need should be identified at the most root way. So in this case, it should be expressed in terms of making him feel good when she LOOKS GOOD. Take away the execution part of it and allow her to decide how SHE looks good.


----------



## Maricha75

farsidejunky said:


> You sort of had me until this.
> 
> Just because you don't understand it does not make it unimportant. In fact, minimizing or shaming the need is incredibly disrespectful.


If you say so. I understand wanting your spouse to look nice. What I do not understand is why someone would NEED a fake persona presented to the world in order for that spouse to fulfill that emotional need. So, I stand by my opionion. How can WEARING MAKEUP be classified as an emotional need? How can expecting your wife to go to the salon and get fake nails put on (an assumption based on his wording that "off came the nails") be an emotional need? Basically, how can wanting your wife to be a fake person be a legitimate emotional need? It's a serious question. We are constantly telling people to "be yourself" but when someone comes on here, wanting his wife to wear makeup, now the script gets flipped to help him make his wife into someone she is not? It makes absolutely no sense.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## 3Xnocharm

My impression is that maybe OP just wants to see some effort being made by his wife. If she is a homebody and possibly depressed, maybe she is lying around in slouchy, messy sweats, hair in a messy bun, no makeup.... She can be a homebody and still at least be presentable. She could buy some cute matching workout sets or fitted track suits. Cute yoga pants and a zip up track jacket are still super comfy but look put-together instead of sloppy. Then have her hair pulled back into a cute pony on top of this, she wouldn't even NEED makeup. 

This would show him that she does care about how she presents herself, not just to HIM, but to everyone else too, without feeling like she is having to put on some kind of show for him....

Am I way off here, @When2Leave?


----------



## Lila

I don't have any book suggestions for you OP but here's a thought. 

Asking a woman who typically doesn't wear make-up to wear it is akin to asking a cowboy boots and jeans kind of guy to wear loafers and khakis. He'll do it once in a while but he's probably going to feel uncomfortable as hell. 

Sent from mobile using Tapatalk


----------



## 225985

Maricha75 said:


> Which is why I asked what happens if she says she just does not want to wear makeup, and won't. If she sees it as a waste of time and money and nothing he can present will change that opinion, then what? She can look beautiful without it. And even the comparisons that were posted earlier in this thread... I think the women without it looked better. The others looked fake.
> 
> And, yes, turnera, I do listen to what makes my husband happy. And if it does not cross MY values, I am fine with doing what makes him happy. If I don't see an expense as being worth the cost, I won't.
> 
> And I truly don't see how a woman wearing makeup can be a legitimate emotional need. Smh.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk




Not wearing makeup is a value? Or is it just a preference?

It is emotional need if she once did it (bait and switch) and is now signaling he is not worth her time for her to look good to him just once a week

A little bit of makeup can make a person look better without looking fake.


----------



## DustyDog

Maricha75 said:


> Which is why I asked what happens if she says she just does not want to wear makeup, and won't. If she sees it as a waste of time and money and nothing he can present will change that opinion, then what? She can look beautiful without it. And even the comparisons that were posted earlier in this thread... I think the women without it looked better. The others looked fake.
> 
> And, yes, turnera, I do listen to what makes my husband happy. And if it does not cross MY values, I am fine with doing what makes him happy. If I don't see an expense as being worth the cost, I won't.
> 
> And I truly don't see how a woman wearing makeup can be a legitimate emotional need. Smh.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


I think the issue that someone is trying to bring up is this:

When dating and early in the marriage, she wore makeup.

Now she doesn't - and refuses to.

When someone makes such a dramatic change, it's pretty normal for the other person to ask why and get a reasoned answer. And it's also normal for them to get upset if the answer is "I did that only to attract you and now I don't need to."

Clearly, if she wore make-up before, she was not, at that time, considering it a waste of time.

BTW, on that score, I'm nominally with you - I prefer women without.


----------



## Maricha75

blueinbr said:


> Not wearing makeup is a value? Or is it just a preference?
> 
> It is emotional need if she once did it (bait and switch) and is now signaling he is not worth her time for her to look good to him just once a week
> 
> A little bit of makeup can make a person look better without looking fake.


Don't put words in my mouth, blue. No, makeup is not a value. I was talking in general terms regarding values. If he were to request something of me that *did* go against my values, I would not do it. Plain and simple. Makeup is a preference (and not a need 😏). 

I agree that she should look nice for him. I disagree that makeup is necessary to do it. And even a little bit of makeup looks fake to me. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## Maricha75

DustyDog said:


> I think the issue that someone is trying to bring up is this:
> 
> When dating and early in the marriage, she wore makeup.
> 
> Now she doesn't - and refuses to.
> 
> When someone makes such a dramatic change, it's pretty normal for the other person to ask why and get a reasoned answer. *And it's also normal for them to get upset if the answer is "I did that only to attract you and now I don't need to."*
> 
> Clearly, if she wore make-up before, she was not, at that time, considering it a waste of time.
> 
> BTW, on that score, I'm nominally with you - I prefer women without.


But, did she actually *say* this? If so, then I agree that it is a bait and switch. Otherwise, it is very possible that someone can consider something *not* a waste of time in the past but does in the present. I felt it wasn't a waste in my teens and early twenties because I wanted to fit in with everyone else. Now, I don't care about that. There are more important things to spend our money on than that.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## 225985

Maricha75 said:


> But, did she actually *say* this? If so, then I agree that it is a bait and switch. Otherwise, it is very possible that someone can consider something *not* a waste of time in the past but does in the present. I felt it wasn't a waste in my teens and early twenties because I wanted to fit in with everyone else. Now, I don't care about that. There are more important things to spend our money on than that.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk




Your post brings up a most important question. How much is a spouse allowed to change something important to the other?

If she felt makeup was important before but not now, is she cheating OP out of a need that is important to him?

This happens all the time with sex.


----------



## jld

You have to evolve along with your spouse. If she is suffering from Lyme disease, it is no wonder she does not care about her appearance. She is likely more concerned about how she feels than what she looks like.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> You have to evolve along with your spouse. If she is suffering from Lyme disease, it is no wonder she does not care about her appearance. She is likely more concerned about how she feels than what she looks like.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Except that it was happening prior to the Lymes, was it not? 

That makes it "todays" reason.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Except that it was happening prior to the Lymes, was it not?
> 
> That makes it "todays" reason.


Have you ever heard people with that disease talk about their suffering? If I had it, I doubt I would care about my appearance, either.

I reread the opening post. Yes, it seems like she stopped caring about makeup, nails, etc., shortly after the wedding. Those things must not have been the true her. Not sure why she bothered with them to start with.

OP, if you feel deceived, you are certainly within your rights to divorce her. I think every state has no fault divorce. So any reason can be grounds for divorce.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NextTimeAround

Whe I was younger -- in my first marriage-- I thought that when my husband fell in love with me, he would stay in love with me...... no matter what I did. And since I was spoonfed the belief that men should love you for what's on the inside, I had trouble trying to understand what's the point.

But I have also since heard from many sources that even in job search, hiring managers will judge negatively a female job seeker who is not wearing make up. "you need to look polished in an interview" I am told.

I did notice many well dressed, well pained -- face, nails and hair-- female managers in positions that I had to reach AND in very UNartsy fartsy industries.......

And I thought work was the last bastion in which women would be judged by what's inside.....

So to the OP, I get you. you want to see your wife make an effort.... something close, at least in the direction of, what she did when you two were dating.

Older and wiser I get that now. Fortunately, with my second husband we have the money for me to go to a manicurist; the hairdresser for color and straightening and so on.

and we have to remember that some things done for beauty are not only short term solutions but can have negative long term results.

Tanning is one of them.

For the hair, hot combing, flat ironing, hair extensions..... they all look great on the day but set hair back at least a couple of months .... if not more......

I went to a couple of make up sessions (Groupon makes that accessible) and was amazed at the transformation that it can make on a woman. But you have to accept the cost of it (make-up is not cheap) and the amount of time it takes. Every now and again you read about a husband upset at how often his wife is late........

I hope this helps in where you draw the line with looks but also for others when evaluating a new partner before marriage. 

We all lose our looks to some degree anyway. but I notice how many are intrigued and impressed when an older person makes an effort.


----------



## NextTimeAround

Whe I was younger -- in my first marriage-- I thought that when my husband fell in love with me, he would stay in love with me...... no matter what I did. And since I was spoonfed the belief that men should love you for what's on the inside, I had trouble trying to understand what's the point.

But I have also since heard from many sources that even in job search, hiring managers will judge negatively a female job seeker who is not wearing make up. "you need to look polished in an interview" I am told.

I did notice many well dressed, well painted -- face, nails and hair-- female managers in positions that I had wanted to reach AND in very UNartsy fartsy industries.......

And I thought work was the last bastion in which women would be judged by what's inside.....

So to the OP, I get you. you want to see your wife make an effort.... something close, at least in the direction of, what she did when you two were dating.

Older and wiser I get that now. Fortunately, with my second husband we have the money for me to go to a manicurist; the hairdresser for color and straightening and so on.

and we have to remember that some things done for beauty are not only short term solutions but can have negative long term results.

Tanning is one of them.

For the hair, hot combing, flat ironing, hair extensions..... they all look great on the day but set hair back at least a couple of months .... if not more......

I went to a couple of make up sessions (Groupon makes that accessible) and was amazed at the transformation that it can make on a woman. But you have to accept the cost of it (make-up is not cheap) and the amount of time it takes. Every now and again you read about a husband upset at how often his wife is late........

I hope this helps in where you draw the line with looks but also for others when the are evaluating a new partner before marriage. 

We all lose our looks to some degree anyway. but I notice how many are intrigued and impressed when an older person makes an effort.


----------



## Maricha75

jld said:


> Have you ever heard people with that disease talk about their suffering? If I had it, I doubt I would care about my appearance, either.
> 
> I reread the opening post. Yes, it seems like she stopped caring about makeup, nails, etc., shortly after the wedding. Those things must not have been the true her. Not sure why she bothered with them to start with.
> 
> OP, if you feel deceived, you are certainly within your rights to divorce her. I think every state has no fault divorce. So any reason can be grounds for divorce.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Can you imagine if he did have to put a reason for divorcing?

- Why are you seeking a divorce?
- She stopped wearing makeup and fake nails. I *need* her to wear makeup and fake nails.

:scratchhead:


On a serious note... I have a friend who had Lyme disease, too. They thought it was something completely different. No one even thought to test for Lyme disease. He was on disability for years because of it... until they finally did that test. He was always tired, always sleeping. And it made him angry that he couldn't do even a fraction of what he wanted to do. It isn't pretty, that's for sure. 🙁

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## NextTimeAround

SimplyAmorous said:


> One of your needs is "Attractiveness" - pretty common for men.. one of the emotional needs on Harley's list of 10..... some will try to tell you ..."You are shallow"...
> 
> Personally I don't think that is fair.. anymore than women caring about "Financial Stability" in a relationship.. in case she gets pregnant someday, and may be home with a child/ children, she has more of a need of this..
> 
> Then we come back to the Man is visual...looks can EXCITE him and draw him to his partner..
> 
> Has there been a disconnect in your wanting to be with her intimately over this ??.. if she feels that.. and cares about it.. this would be a good motivator..
> 
> Maybe she just doesn't care.. If so...why ?



SA, I am surprised but also saddened that it does not include "loyalty." I think that was the major reason that my first marriage collapsed. It seemed that my ex husband was too worried about other people's feelings.

I was lso fully expecting that I would work and contribute to the household, so a husband being a provider was less important.

Now that I am older and wiser and have decided that while women have changed and men have not, yes, a man needs to be a very good provider before I consider him.


----------



## jld

NextTimeAround said:


> Now that I am older and wiser and have decided that while women have changed and men have not, yes, a man needs to be a very good provider before I consider him.


Interesting comment. Would make for a thought-provoking thread, I think.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Maricha75

farsidejunky said:


> Except that it was happening prior to the Lymes, was it not?
> 
> That makes it "todays" reason.


After thinking about it, I decided to see how long it takes for symptoms to appear when one had bern infected with the bacteria causing Lyme disease. It can remain semi-dormant for years. I knew that... sort of. And that got me wondering how long ago his wife was bitten by the tick, and when she was diagnosed with the disease, officially. I don't recall any mention of other illnesses over the years, which often mimic the symptoms of Lyme disease. So, it is quite possible she had it all that time, but they didn't know. Just a thought...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## NextTimeAround

jld said:


> Interesting comment. Would make for a thought-provoking thread, I think.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



what about the loyalty factor?


----------



## AliceA

This one might help you:

https://www.amazon.com/High-Price-Materialism-Tim-Kasser/dp/026261197X


----------



## NextTimeAround

breeze said:


> This one might help you:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/High-Price-Materialism-Tim-Kasser/dp/026261197X


Whom are you addressing?


----------



## notmyrealname4

@When2Leave
*
Lyme disease is the most important issue here*; I'm confused as to whether the make-up wearing fell off before or after 1.) getting married, or 2.) getting Lyme disease.

But either way, if she feels like crap, fighting off sickness---then wearing make-up is of zero importance to her right now.


I'll assume you are being honest, and that you think that your wife is pretty without make-up.

But, obviously, you think she looks better WITH it, than without. Even if your wife knows this is true; it does hurt when you know your husband prefers you in make-up. Because, the basic truth is---you're not good enough looking naturally. Face it; that is the truth.

And, *most* men think women look better with make-up. They don't care that it's "fake". Some men are anywhere from disappointed-to-angry when they first see their gf. without make-up.:surprise:

I can't stand myself without make-up. My husband will remark about women negatively, "she doesn't wear make up".

At least you admit that it's the addition of make-up that makes a woman's face so attractive; some men are so dumb, that they think that the way women look in magazines and TV is "natural".

So they say, "I like a 'naturally' beautiful woman". What they mean is expertly applied make-up in very subtle, natural colors, lol.

If men liked women to be "natural", all of the centerfolds, and swimsuit models, and lingerie models and porn queens, would be bare-faced: you'd see the dark shadows under the eyes; the freckles, acne, roseacea on their skin.

They'd have (gasp) small or saggy breasts, visible cellulite and/or stretch marks <<<<thin women who have never had children have them too.

Men can't stand natural women. Men even like artificial nails now, it seems!!! There was a poster a while back (staarz21, I think) whose husband wanted her to do her *eyebrows* like the girls in porn were doing them, lol.

We've been brainwashed and conditioned. Very few of us are immune to it.

I try to look at the fun, creative part of make-up, and just enjoy it. I really do need to wear it. I mean, I guess I do. Well, I do, by modern standards. If this was 1816, or even 1916: I probably wouldn't think so.


It's up to your wife if she wants to keep wearing make-up--when she's returned to full health.

BTW, this was mentioned upthread, and I agree with it: does you wife have the kind of lifestyle that would encourage wearing make-up? Or is her routine pretty much schlepping around the house. Not much motivation to wear make-up if all you do is vacuum and clean the oven etc.etc.

And could she be mirroring you? Are you slovenly, unshaved, wear stained T-shirts, have a big gut? IOW, have your standards of physical attractiveness taken a nosedive too?

Looks in a man matter to women. I know you've been told your whole life that they don't. But they do.


----------



## jld

NextTimeAround said:


> what about the loyalty factor?


Is that not covered under Honesty and Openness and Family Support?

You certainly are welcome to start a thread on it, too, if you like. But the other paragraph is the one that stood out to me, personally.

Ok, back to you, OP.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## notmyrealname4

NextTimeAround said:


> Now that I am older and wiser and have decided that while women have changed and men have not, yes,* a man needs to be a very good provider before I consider him*.


This does make sense in a way.

If a woman is not _really_ any good unless she wears make-up, wears painful high-heeled shoes, keeps her hair at least shoulder length, keeps her body slim, is willing to consider breast augmentation, is willing to consider labioplasty, is willing to maintain the daily vigil of removing *all* body hair, have a manicure, pedicure.....

And cook, and clean, and damage her body with childbearing....


And go to work outside the home......

And put up with porn and do anal, maybe a 3some...............



What would make marriage worth all that??


----------



## 225985

Maricha75 said:


> After thinking about it, I decided to see how long it takes for symptoms to appear when one had bern infected with the bacteria causing Lyme disease. It can remain semi-dormant for years. I knew that... sort of. And that got me wondering how long ago his wife was bitten by the tick, and when she was diagnosed with the disease, officially. I don't recall any mention of other illnesses over the years, which often mimic the symptoms of Lyme disease. So, it is quite possible she had it all that time, but they didn't know. Just a thought...
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Are you theorizing she physically may not have felt well and that carried over into her emotional state when she said that she does not want to wear makeup anymore?


----------



## 225985

NextTimeAround said:


> Whe I was younger -- in my first marriage-- I thought that when my husband fell in love with me, he would stay in love with me...... no matter what I did. And since I was spoonfed the belief that men should love you for what's on the inside, I had trouble trying to understand what's the point.
> 
> But I have also since heard from many sources that even in job search, hiring managers will judge negatively a female job seeker who is not wearing make up. "you need to look polished in an interview" I am told.
> 
> I did notice many well dressed, well painted -- face, nails and hair-- female managers in positions that I had wanted to reach AND in very UNartsy fartsy industries.......
> 
> And I thought work was the last bastion in which women would be judged by what's inside.....


That is not limited to women. Guys also should look their best when going on an interviews.

Also, attractive people get hired first and promoted faster, both women and men. In my office, the pretty boys seem to move up faster than the average, even when they under performance. Sad, but true.


----------



## Maricha75

blueinbr said:


> Are you theorizing she physically may not have felt well and that carried over into her emotional state when she said that she does not want to wear makeup anymore?


It's possible. It doesn't change my opinion on makeup, overall, but it is possible she has it all that time and it just recently got worse. Only OP can say for certain... if he even knows when she was bitten.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## 225985

Maricha75 said:


> It's possible. It doesn't change my opinion on makeup, overall, but it is possible she has it all that time and it just recently got worse. Only OP can say for certain... if he even knows when she was bitten.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk




A sick or depressed person wont want to do much or go out much. She is a homebody, right? And often they wont recognize that is the cause.


----------



## NextTimeAround

blueinbr said:


> That is not limited to women. * Guys also should look their best when going on an interviews.
> *
> Also, attractive people get hired first and promoted faster, both women and men. In my office, the pretty boys seem to move up faster than the average, even when they under performance. Sad, but true.


OK, but where does it end? The expectation is that one wears an appropriate suit and shoes for the occasion. How much does that include structured hairdos and transforming makeup. 

what should you do if you have acne? Or if you are overweight?

funny how there is more support for those who are overweight than for those who are "over age"?


----------



## NextTimeAround

notmyrealname4 said:


> This does make sense in a way.
> 
> If a woman is not _really_ any good unless she wears make-up, wears painful high-heeled shoes, keeps her hair at least shoulder length, keeps her body slim, is willing to consider breast augmentation, is willing to consider labioplasty, is willing to maintain the daily vigil of removing *all* body hair, have a manicure, pedicure.....
> 
> And cook, and clean, and damage her body with childbearing....
> 
> 
> And go to work outside the home......
> 
> And put up with porn and do anal, maybe a 3some...............
> 
> 
> 
> What would make marriage worth all that??


over the decades that I have been in relationships, I find that when I help to pay for the dates, all the guy does is turn around and spend money on other people. In turn, I am called a "cheap date" and treated as such.


----------



## turnera

blueinbr said:


> That is not limited to women. Guys also should look their best when going on an interviews.
> 
> Also, attractive people get hired first and promoted faster, both women and men. In my office, the pretty boys seem to move up faster than the average, even when they under performance. Sad, but true.


I've been out of work for 1 1/2 years. I went to night school and didn't get my degree until I was 31. So when I list my year of graduation, it makes me seem 10 years younger. Well, I definitely don't LOOK 10 years younger. I've been on probably 15 interviews and haven't gotten a single one except one where the boss was interviewing me over the phone and the assistant only was in the room (and it was just a temporary job). I strongly believe - because I'm a pretty decent person (not crazy, not ruining the interview) and because every employer has marveled at my work history (seeming happy to find me) - that the only reason I'm not getting any of these jobs is because I fully look like the 58 years that I am when they finally meet me, and they don't want to invest good money in someone "about to retire."

Looks mean a lot!

But back to OP, you said that your marriage has been one-sided for years, with her not meeting any of your needs. Can you elaborate on that? What has been discussed about it? What are her reasons? Have you fought over it?


----------



## NextTimeAround

turnera said:


> I've been out of work for 1 1/2 years. I went to night school and didn't get my degree until I was 31. So when I list my year of graduation, it makes me seem 10 years younger. Well, I definitely don't LOOK 10 years younger. I've been on probably 15 interviews and haven't gotten a single one except one where the boss was interviewing me over the phone and the assistant only was in the room (and it was just a temporary job). I strongly believe - because I'm a pretty decent person (not crazy, not ruining the interview) and because every employer has marveled at my work history (seeming happy to find me) - that the only reason I'm not getting any of these jobs is because I fully look like the 58 years that I am when they finally meet me*, and they don't want to invest good money in someone "about to retire."
> 
> *Looks mean a lot!
> 
> But back to OP, you said that your marriage has been one-sided for years, with her not meeting any of your needs. Can you elaborate on that? What has been discussed about it? What are her reasons? Have you fought over it?


But what money do employers invest these days? they already expect at least a BA and quite often a masters. 

They very rarely pay for training and they are looking to structure your employment so that they have maximum flexibility to drop you without consequences at any moment. 

why on earth should they care about age anyway?


----------



## notmyrealname4

NextTimeAround said:


> over the decades that I have been in relationships,* I find that when I help to pay for the dates, all the guy does is turn around and spend money on other people. In turn, I am called a "cheap date" and treated as such*.


There was a famous baseball pitcher, IIRC his name was Dave Dravecky.

I read his book, he had arm cancer at some point and wrote about his struggles.

Anyway, he said that while dating, his then gf. (eventually wife) would pick up the tab, or they'd do cheap stuff.

And he'd spend the money he was saving on dating other women.

He said he doesn't know how she ever forgave him. I don't know either. Maybe when he got signed as a baseball player.....I don't recall.
-----------------------------------------------

I tried really hard when young to pay equally on everything.


I am so confused, I really am. But I don't _think_ I would do that again.


For some weird, sick reason: men loathe and disrespect women who offer to pay------while verbally condemning women who expect them to pay for dates.


I think it comes down to this: men love paying for dates when they have the money to do so. It skyrockets their egos.

When a well-meaning idio....I mean girl, pays, or splits the bill.....they_ instantly_ lose respect for her. A girl paying actually insults their ego....like she's saying, "I don't think you can pay for this, so I'll help", I think that is how men perceive it.

Or, when men can't pay for a pricey date, so can't get the very, very, beautiful women who can command anything from men----these men get very angry at women.

But it's not because they don't_ want_ to pay for dates. It's because they can't _afford_ to pay for the date.

And out-of-reach women remind them of this.
------------------------------------------

My bio father never paid squat for me. My step-father wanted me out of the house as soon as his marriage to my mother started to tank. So I never saw men as "willing providers". Never.

That combined with the chant of "equal rights" I took in growing up, led me to believe that women should be willing to pay for themselves; men don't want to pay and shouldn't be expected to.

Sorry, for the rant. But this has been a very confusing issue in my life; really stirred up by all that I've read on TAM.


----------



## NextTimeAround

notmyrealname4 said:


> There was a famous baseball pitcher, IIRC his name was Dave Dravecky.
> 
> I read his book, he had arm cancer at some point and wrote about his struggles.
> 
> Anyway, he said that while dating, his then gf. (eventually wife) would pick up the tab, or they'd do cheap stuff.
> 
> And he'd spend the money he was saving on dating other women.
> 
> He said he doesn't know how she ever forgave him. I don't know either. Maybe when he got signed as a baseball player.....I don't recall.
> -----------------------------------------------
> 
> I tried really hard when young to pay equally on everything.
> 
> 
> I am so confused, I really am. But I don't _think_ I would do that again.
> 
> 
> For some weird, sick reason: men loathe and disrespect women who offer to pay------while verbally condemning women who expect them to pay for dates.
> 
> 
> I think it comes down to this: men love paying for dates when they have the money to do so. It skyrockets their egos.
> 
> When a well-meaning idio....I mean girl, pays, or splits the bill.....they_ instantly_ lose respect for her. A girl paying actually insults their ego....like she's saying, "I don't think you can pay for this, so I'll help", I think that is how men perceive it.
> 
> Or, when men can't pay for a pricey date, so can't get the very, very, beautiful women who can command anything from men----these men get very angry at women.
> 
> But it's not because they don't_ want_ to pay for dates. It's because they can't _afford_ to pay for the date.
> 
> And out-of-reach women remind them of this.
> ------------------------------------------
> 
> My bio father never paid squat for me. My step-father wanted me out of the house as soon as his marriage to my mother started to tank. So I never saw men as "willing providers". Never.
> 
> That combined with the chant of "equal rights" I took in growing up, led me to believe that women should be willing to pay for themselves; men don't want to pay and shouldn't be expected to.
> 
> Sorry, for the rant. But this has been a very confusing issue in my life; really stirred up by all that I've read on TAM.


with the tongue in cheek answer that you gave below, I am amazed that you are a woman.



> This does make sense in a way.
> 
> If a woman is not really any good unless she wears make-up, wears painful high-heeled shoes, keeps her hair at least shoulder length, keeps her body slim, is willing to consider breast augmentation, is willing to consider labioplasty, is willing to maintain the daily vigil of removing all body hair, have a manicure, pedicure.....
> 
> And cook, and clean, and damage her body with childbearing....
> 
> 
> And go to work outside the home......
> 
> And put up with porn and do anal, maybe a 3some...............
> 
> 
> 
> What would make marriage worth all that??


----------



## 225985

NextTimeAround said:


> OK, but where does it end? The expectation is that one wears an appropriate suit and shoes for the occasion. How much does that include structured hairdos and transforming makeup.
> 
> what should you do if you have acne? Or if you are overweight?
> 
> funny how there is more support for those who are overweight than for those who are "over age"?


A guy does what he needs for an interview. Clean, well fitted suit, polished shoes, great shirt & tie, watch, fresh modern haircuit (within the past week), well shaven, groomed eyebrows if needed, nose & ear hairs (TMI) etc. Cream to remove bags under eyes if needed. 

Ok, I use wrinkle reducing face cream. I am 50. I know it "ain't gonna" happen but I want the 30's women to find me handsome or at least not old man looking. I do look about 10 years younger than my age.

So I do all that a non-metrosexual guy can do for an interview. Now I started and have been doing all these daily, minus the suit.

OP's wife does not need stunning makeup every time. I too prefer the natural look, but that normally just means a little bit of makeup, not put on with a spackle knife. Can she just do more than what she does now? 

Yes overweight and or older is a significant hurdle when looking for a job. If you want to improve prospects, it means losing weight or doing what you can on your age-appearance. Statistically both of those mean higher healthcare costs, plus the stereotype of having less energy or drive. 

I am betting on the wrinkle creams. We will see.


----------



## Married but Happy

Come to think of it, there IS a book: Checkbook. And in the same genre: Credit Card.


----------



## uhtred

As with some many things, there is a lot of variation. 

In normal life I actually prefer women with no or minimal makeup, comfortable shoes, clothes etc. I like the look of spontaneity and the implied ruggedness / "ready for anything" attitude.

Dress-up play in the bedroom is fine, as one of many fun things to do.

I'm picky about hygiene, but not about neatness or style. 

I suspect I am very non-typical.




notmyrealname4 said:


> @When2Leave
> *
> Lyme disease is the most important issue here*; I'm confused as to whether the make-up wearing fell off before or after 1.) getting married, or 2.) getting Lyme disease.
> 
> But either way, if she feels like crap, fighting off sickness---then wearing make-up is of zero importance to her right now.
> 
> 
> I'll assume you are being honest, and that you think that your wife is pretty without make-up.
> 
> But, obviously, you think she looks better WITH it, than without. Even if your wife knows this is true; it does hurt when you know your husband prefers you in make-up. Because, the basic truth is---you're not good enough looking naturally. Face it; that is the truth.
> 
> And, *most* men think women look better with make-up. They don't care that it's "fake". Some men are anywhere from disappointed-to-angry when they first see their gf. without make-up.:surprise:
> 
> I can't stand myself without make-up. My husband will remark about women negatively, "she doesn't wear make up".
> 
> At least you admit that it's the addition of make-up that makes a woman's face so attractive; some men are so dumb, that they think that the way women look in magazines and TV is "natural".
> 
> So they say, "I like a 'naturally' beautiful woman". What they mean is expertly applied make-up in very subtle, natural colors, lol.
> 
> If men liked women to be "natural", all of the centerfolds, and swimsuit models, and lingerie models and porn queens, would be bare-faced: you'd see the dark shadows under the eyes; the freckles, acne, roseacea on their skin.
> 
> They'd have (gasp) small or saggy breasts, visible cellulite and/or stretch marks <<<<thin women who have never had children have them too.
> 
> Men can't stand natural women. Men even like artificial nails now, it seems!!! There was a poster a while back (staarz21, I think) whose husband wanted her to do her *eyebrows* like the girls in porn were doing them, lol.
> 
> We've been brainwashed and conditioned. Very few of us are immune to it.
> 
> I try to look at the fun, creative part of make-up, and just enjoy it. I really do need to wear it. I mean, I guess I do. Well, I do, by modern standards. If this was 1816, or even 1916: I probably wouldn't think so.
> 
> 
> It's up to your wife if she wants to keep wearing make-up--when she's returned to full health.
> 
> BTW, this was mentioned upthread, and I agree with it: does you wife have the kind of lifestyle that would encourage wearing make-up? Or is her routine pretty much schlepping around the house. Not much motivation to wear make-up if all you do is vacuum and clean the oven etc.etc.
> 
> And could she be mirroring you? Are you slovenly, unshaved, wear stained T-shirts, have a big gut? IOW, have your standards of physical attractiveness taken a nosedive too?
> 
> Looks in a man matter to women. I know you've been told your whole life that they don't. But they do.


----------



## uhtred

There is a lot of ageism in the workplace, especially in some industries. Some is irrational - "we want young energetic creative people". Some is the problem the older workers are on average better paid. 





turnera said:


> I've been out of work for 1 1/2 years. I went to night school and didn't get my degree until I was 31. So when I list my year of graduation, it makes me seem 10 years younger. Well, I definitely don't LOOK 10 years younger. I've been on probably 15 interviews and haven't gotten a single one except one where the boss was interviewing me over the phone and the assistant only was in the room (and it was just a temporary job). I strongly believe - because I'm a pretty decent person (not crazy, not ruining the interview) and because every employer has marveled at my work history (seeming happy to find me) - that the only reason I'm not getting any of these jobs is because I fully look like the 58 years that I am when they finally meet me, and they don't want to invest good money in someone "about to retire."
> 
> Looks mean a lot!
> 
> But back to OP, you said that your marriage has been one-sided for years, with her not meeting any of your needs. Can you elaborate on that? What has been discussed about it? What are her reasons? Have you fought over it?


----------



## notmyrealname4

uhtred said:


> As with some many things, there is a lot of variation.
> 
> In normal life I actually prefer women with no or minimal makeup, comfortable shoes, clothes etc. I like the look of spontaneity and the implied ruggedness / "ready for anything" attitude.
> 
> Dress-up play in the bedroom is fine, as one of many fun things to do.
> 
> I'm picky about hygiene, but not about neatness or style.
> 
> *I suspect I am very non-typical.*



I suspect you are right.


----------



## uhtred

You don't know the half of it. :smile2:





notmyrealname4 said:


> I suspect you are right.


----------



## DustyDog

Maricha75 said:


> But, did she actually *say* this? If so, then I agree that it is a bait and switch. Otherwise, it is very possible that someone can consider something *not* a waste of time in the past but does in the present.


As far as OP has written, she hasn't said anything at all. And that, all by itself, can raise suspicion.

If it's a simple matter of "I decided it's a waste of time, even though I used to do it", that's all she need say.

If he's asking why, and she's not responding, then she is employing what Gottman says is the worst of the "four horsemen of the apocalypse", which is Stonewalling.


----------



## NobodySpecial

DustyDog said:


> As far as OP has written, she hasn't said anything at all. And that, all by itself, can raise suspicion.


She did. She said she felt he was trying to change her into someone else. I'm betting resentment over something else makes her not want to consider this.


----------



## NextTimeAround

NobodySpecial said:


> She did. She said she felt he was trying to change her into someone else. I'm betting resentment over something else makes her not want to consider this.


Sometimes, it's just plain passive-aggression. I find I get what I want more often when I act as if I don't care.


----------



## turnera

NextTimeAround said:


> But what money do employers invest these days? they already expect at least a BA and quite often a masters.
> 
> They very rarely pay for training and they are looking to structure your employment so that they have maximum flexibility to drop you without consequences at any moment.
> 
> why on earth should they care about age anyway?


My brother, a highly respected expert in his field with a Masters and CPA and other stuff, was recently 'retired' from his company and was sent to a headhunter company as part of the compensation. He's 61. The guy at the company flat out told him to just not expect to get another job, unless it's part time or temporary. He said "nobody is going to hire anyone even close to the age of 60 anymore. Companies just don't do that anymore."

And when I say invest, I'm talking about the time they have to put into interviewing and replacing people as well as the higher salary more experienced (old) people expect.


----------



## CH

turnera said:


> My brother, a highly respected expert in his field with a Masters and CPA and other stuff, was recently 'retired' from his company and was sent to a headhunter company as part of the compensation. He's 61. The guy at the company flat out told him to just not expect to get another job, unless it's part time or temporary. He said "nobody is going to hire anyone even close to the age of 60 anymore. Companies just don't do that anymore."


Big corporations, draw the young in with decent money (making less than those with tenure) and then repeat the cycle once this young buck becomes the old guy in the company and needs to be replaced.

My uncle was the same, moved to TX with his company 20+ years ago. Making 250K easily at the end and boom, we're eliminating your position, grab your stuff you have 30 minutes. Not even a thank you for all those years and he trained his replacement who has a different job title! At 57, the best he could find was starting all over again and taking a job at $50k. Finally he gave up and just took early retirement at 62, some old guy with a bunch of 20 to 30 year olds and a supervisor who doesn't even know how


----------



## turnera

Back in the 90s, my dad was a long-time aerospace engineer, never took a promotion. They finally convinced him to take a promotion and the first thing they had him do was train a 20-something to do his work. You got it, gone. We were trying to talk him into suing for age discrimination, as it wasn't very typical back then, but then the whole company lost the contract and they were all gone, lol. 

Today, it's just what they do. Thank you, Reagan and activist shareholders.

Anyway, sorry about the T/J.

OP, I asked you to give us more details about what life's been like the last 5-10 years. That would help us give better advice.


----------



## 225985

notmyrealname4 said:


> There was a famous baseball pitcher, IIRC his name was Dave Dravecky.
> 
> 
> 
> I read his book, he had arm cancer at some point and wrote about his struggles.
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, he said that while dating, his then gf. (eventually wife) would pick up the tab, or they'd do cheap stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> And he'd spend the money he was saving on dating other women.
> 
> 
> 
> He said he doesn't know how she ever forgave him. I don't know either. Maybe when he got signed as a baseball player.....I don't recall.
> 
> -----------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> I tried really hard when young to pay equally on everything.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am so confused, I really am. But I don't _think_ I would do that again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For some weird, sick reason: men loathe and disrespect women who offer to pay------while verbally condemning women who expect them to pay for dates.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think it comes down to this: men love paying for dates when they have the money to do so. It skyrockets their egos.
> 
> 
> 
> When a well-meaning idio....I mean girl, pays, or splits the bill.....they_ instantly_ lose respect for her. A girl paying actually insults their ego....like she's saying, "I don't think you can pay for this, so I'll help", I think that is how men perceive it.
> 
> 
> 
> Or, when men can't pay for a pricey date, so can't get the very, very, beautiful women who can command anything from men----these men get very angry at women.
> 
> 
> 
> But it's not because they don't_ want_ to pay for dates. It's because they can't _afford_ to pay for the date.
> 
> 
> 
> And out-of-reach women remind them of this.
> 
> ------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> My bio father never paid squat for me. My step-father wanted me out of the house as soon as his marriage to my mother started to tank. So I never saw men as "willing providers". Never.
> 
> 
> 
> That combined with the chant of "equal rights" I took in growing up, led me to believe that women should be willing to pay for themselves; men don't want to pay and shouldn't be expected to.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, for the rant. But this has been a very confusing issue in my life; really stirred up by all that I've read on TAM.




You seem bitter. Your use of "men" instead of "some men" confirms that. 

I don't mind if you pay.


----------



## 225985

turnera said:


> Back in the 90s, my dad was a long-time aerospace engineer, never took a promotion. They finally convinced him to take a promotion and the first thing they had him do was train a 20-something to do his work. You got it, gone. We were trying to talk him into suing for age discrimination, as it wasn't very typical back then, but then the whole company lost the contract and they were all gone, lol.
> 
> Today, it's just what they do. Thank you, Reagan and activist shareholders.
> 
> Anyway, sorry about the T/J.
> 
> OP, I asked you to give us more details about what life's been like the last 5-10 years. That would help us give better advice.




You blame Reagan for you dad losing his job? If anything his support and funding of the military meant your father had a job longer than he would have. 

Reagan was out of office Jan 1989. 

I know the industry. An engineer that does not progress is at risk of losing job as he ages.


----------



## Openminded

I ended my career at 55 so I could help with my grandchildren. I have always taken extremely good care of myself and didn't then (and still don't -- all pretense at modesty aside) look anywhere close to my age. I take after my father's family and they all looked young long after they were not. I hated that when I actually was young but finally realized it was a benefit. However, no matter how young I looked in the later years of my career, the person interviewing me had my date of birth on the application and I began to notice age discrimination. It's very real. 

PS
Since this is about makeup, I'll admit that I daily wear lipstick. I have always had pale hair, pale skin, and fairly pale eyes so I'm a lipstick addict and have many colors. I like how I look. I rarely wear foundation -- maybe a little powder. I used to have extremely long and thick dark eyelashes but age zapped them so for family pictures I wear mascara but usually not otherwise. I have mid-length naturally straight hair and I'm ultra-vain about it so it's picture-perfect every day (to the point that it's a family joke). I've been that way my entire life. These things are done for me.


----------



## NextTimeAround

blueinbr said:


> You seem bitter. Your use of "men" instead of "some men" confirms that.
> 
> I don't mind if you pay.



We don't care whether you mind or not. We care what you think of us and how you treat us afterward.


----------



## 225985

NextTimeAround said:


> We don't care whether you mind or not. We care what you think of us and how you treat us afterward.




I would think well of you if you paid.


----------



## NextTimeAround

blueinbr said:


> I would think well of you if you paid.



Okay, if you say. then you'll argue that you paid for the next one because you don't see her all that often........


----------



## turnera

blueinbr said:


> You blame Reagan for you dad losing his job? If anything his support and funding of the military meant your father had a job longer than he would have.
> 
> Reagan was out of office Jan 1989.
> 
> I know the industry. An engineer that does not progress is at risk of losing job as he ages.


No, I blame Reaganomics for the crazy profit at all costs world we're in today. Where companies realized they could pay less, cut benefits, cut hours, get people to do the work of 3, and the people would still stay.


----------



## 225985

NextTimeAround said:


> Okay, if you say. then you'll argue that you paid for the next one because you don't see her all that often........




No i am an engineer. Just happy to have a date. 

So relating this back to OP, is he happy enough with the rest if the marriage so that he does not let this issue simmer. 

I asked him if his wife walks behind him. In that other thread that OP made that issue symbolic of the rest of the marriage. 

Is this really a single issue about makeup?


----------



## Personal

...


----------



## SimplyAmorous

NextTimeAround said:


> SA, I am surprised but also saddened that it does not include "loyalty." I think that was the major reason that my first marriage collapsed. It seemed that my ex husband was too worried about other people's feelings.
> 
> I was lso fully expecting that I would work and contribute to the household, so a husband being a provider was less important.
> 
> Now that I am older and wiser and have decided that while women have changed and men have not, yes, a man needs to be a very good provider before I consider him.


 Loyalty / Faithfulness.. being able to Trust, commit.. absolutely HUGE right !! ...this being THE foundation to build upon ....

I read your post before leaving the house today.. was thinking about this.. bouncing thoughts off my husband... you'd think with *"Openness & Honesty"*... Loyalty is going to play a significant role here.. as a LOYAL person will BE those things.. 

A Disloyal will hide, Lie, trying to pull the wool over our eyes ..they don't want what they do in the dark to be exposed lest they look bad... Oh sometimes honesty can be difficult.. it can even HURT... but at the same time.. it gives us a CHOICE ...an honest choice ....can we accept this, work it out .... or should be move on ... We all deserve that. 

Then adding some *"Admiration"* & *"Affection"* in there .. you'd think with a Disloyal person.. these 2 are going to be a real struggle....we're not going to FEEL it from them...

You say your EX was too worried about other people's feelings.. I think of family members, etc.. too timid to stand his ground when there was external conflict.... so you didn't feel his "support" ... Ya know.. it speaks how a man is to leave his mother & Father & be united to his wife, as ONE...in unity...

Even if one isn't a religious person, these make a whole lot of harmonious sense... Standing together as a United front is very important, for sure..


----------



## notmyrealname4

NextTimeAround said:


> with the tongue in cheek answer that you gave below, I am amazed that you are a woman.


Tongue in cheek????


----------



## notmyrealname4

blueinbr said:


> I don't mind if you pay.


Too late.


----------



## notmyrealname4

@Personal

You "don't count" during these types of discussions.

A rough diamond may look like a piece of aquarium gravel; but it isn't.


----------



## 225985

turnera said:


> No, I blame Reaganomics for the crazy profit at all costs world we're in today. Where companies realized they could pay less, cut benefits, cut hours, get people to do the work of 3, and the people would still stay.




That's makes a company's earnings, and thus stock price, go up. And we all love that because our 401k or retirement nest egg goes up. We just don't want to know the people cost of that. This was the result of the rise of the mutual fund industry in the 80s and 90s. 

End of tj.


----------



## NextTimeAround

blueinbr said:


> That's makes a company's earnings, and thus stock price, go up. And we all love that because our 401k or retirement nest egg goes up. We just don't want to know the people cost of that. This was the result of the rise of the mutual fund industry in the 80s and 90s.
> 
> End of tj.


Not always. The CEO and other senior managers can jack up their compensation packages and then claim that the company isn't making any money.


----------



## DustyDog

NobodySpecial said:


> She did. She said she felt he was trying to change her into someone else. I'm betting resentment over something else makes her not want to consider this.


What I meant was "she hasn't said anything about why she has chosen to not wear make-up, when she used to."


----------



## Looking2Change

Maricha75 said:


> Which is why I asked what happens if she says she just does not want to wear makeup, and won't. If she sees it as a waste of time and money and nothing he can present will change that opinion, then what? She can look beautiful without it. And even the comparisons that were posted earlier in this thread... I think the women without it looked better. The others looked fake.
> 
> And, yes, turnera, I do listen to what makes my husband happy. And if it does not cross MY values, I am fine with doing what makes him happy. If I don't see an expense as being worth the cost, I won't.
> 
> And I truly don't see how a woman wearing makeup can be a legitimate emotional need. Smh.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


How can it be a waste of time or money when it's important to ME? Plus, I buy all her makeup and I don't get the cheap CVS crap. My wife is beautiful but I can't help it that I prefer when women wear makeup. It's what I like and I'm not ashamed of that. I can't help it it's who I am.


----------



## DustyDog

NextTimeAround said:


> Not always. The CEO and other senior managers can jack up their compensation packages and then claim that the company isn't making any money.


The scale of a large company makes that meaningless. $10m extra pay for the top brass alters profit by a meager 0.1% in a medium-sized company.


----------



## Catherine602

DustyDog said:


> The scale of a large company makes that meaningless. $10m extra pay for the top brass alters profit by a meager 0.1% in a medium-sized company.


If you gave 5-10K bonuses to each of 2,000 employees of the company, it would be more beneficial economically. It's taxable and finds it's way back into the economy through spending at small and med sized local businesses.

That same money in the hands of one person goes to tax loopholes, yachts registered in the caribbean, luxury goods made in Europe, and upscale eating establishments. Very little of it trickles down.


----------



## Looking2Change

jld said:


> You have to evolve along with your spouse. If she is suffering from Lyme disease, it is no wonder she does not care about her appearance. She is likely more concerned about how she feels than what she looks like.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This has NOTHING to do with the Lyme Disease. I don't expect her to look any way until she is better. All that matters right now is her getting better.

This has been happening for the past 6+ years not just the past few months. It started out slowly and just kept getting worse and worse.


----------



## Looking2Change

THIS POST HAS NOTHING, NADA, ZILCH, ZERO TO DO WITH LYME DISEASE.

This issue has been going on for several years. WHILE SHE IS RECOVERING I COULD CARE LESS HOW SHE LOOKS SO LONG AS SHE IS GETTING BETTER- WHICH SHE IS!!!


----------



## Maricha75

When2Leave said:


> How can it be a waste of time or money when it's important to ME? Plus, I buy all her makeup and I don't get the cheap CVS crap. My wife is beautiful but I can't help it that I prefer when women wear makeup. It's what I like and I'm not ashamed of that. I can't help it it's who I am.


Did you ever stop to think she doesn't LIKE the brands you pick out? And, in my experience, cheap makeup is the same as the expensive stuff. THAT is the waste of money. YOU are buying it, rather than letting HER decide if she looks good or not. And I stand by my statement... you SAY she is beautiful. Your actions, however, tell her she's not good enough.



When2Leave said:


> This has NOTHING to do with the Lyme Disease. I don't expect her to look any way until she is better. All that matters right now is her getting better.
> 
> This has been happening for the past 6+ years not just the past few months. It started out slowly and just kept getting worse and worse.


As I asked a couple days ago (or yesterday?), when was she bitten by the tick? Just because she is exhibiting the symptoms NOW, and has a definite diagnosis, doesn't mean it is "brand new". 

And, even after she is better, she may decide she still will not wear makeup. What will you do then? Divorce her? Sulk like a petulant child? Or will you acknowledge that she is her own person, capable of deciding how SHE feels about her looks?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## Maricha75

When2Leave said:


> THIS POST HAS NOTHING, NADA, ZILCH, ZERO TO DO WITH LYME DISEASE.
> 
> This issue has been going on for several years. *WHILE SHE IS RECOVERING I COULD CARE LESS HOW SHE LOOKS SO LONG AS SHE IS GETTING BETTER- WHICH SHE IS!!!*


Right. And after, you will go back to telling her that she doesn't look good enough for her? I have a feeling you aren't LISTENING to her. You are stuck in your own mind, and how to get what YOU want. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## Looking2Change

You are very bitter.

As for the buying of the makeup she likes the brands I buy. I know what colors she likes and looks great in. If she doesn't like it she doesn't wear it. It's really that simple.

As for sulking like a baby not sure what you mean by that. She knew when we first met over 15 years ago that I like women to wear makeup. She had her nails done before we ever met and had the for the 3 years we dated and were engaged. She only took them off right after we got married.

She has gotten them done between then and now but mostly has not had them done. 

As for the Lyme Disease she was bit by the tick in early May. Symptoms started around Memorial Day. Her doctor couldn't figure out what was going on but thank god we did our researched and found a Lyme Specialist. Our insurance doesn't cover this and she didn't want to go because of that. I explained we will pay whatever cost it takes in order for her to get better.

She's gotten worse when she started treatment and then slowly getting better every week. We have a follow up next Friday to find out the next steps. We are assuming they will treat her for 30 more days and she should be good to go. So, by October she in theory should be better and be able to come off the meds.

She went back to work this week after being out for 3 months. I've been very supportive throughout this entire process. Sex is one of the most important things to me and we haven't had sex in 3 months. I haven't asked or initiated because I know what she is going thru. I can and have made a TON of sacrifices during this process. This includes cutting back on my business, working less, staying home way more, doing everything I need for our son, and taking care of her. I also had to stop training which is ultra-important to me because she was afraid to be home alone. I've gained about 15lbs during this process and for me who has always been in awesome shape it's killing me.

Things are slowly getting back to normal. I'm back in the gym and training so the weight will be gone within a few weeks. Not worried there. She's feeling better and we are communicating better. I do want her to wear makeup a few times a month. It's not a big deal. I think after everything that's happened over this summer she will be more understanding and she knows how much I will sacrifice to make her happy and I believe she will do the same to make me happy.

That said, this conversation will not happen until she is better.


----------



## Livvie

I used to wear makeup when I was younger. Used to get my hair highlighted, too.

As I got older and matured and experienced more of life, I decided I thought make up was a pain in the butt. The highlights, too. I LOVE my natural beauty and look now. I wear eyeliner on days I feel I look tired, that's it, and don't color my hair now at all. 

Young women wear and do things they can kind of outgrow. I don't wear the heels and miniskirts I used to in my 20s, either!! Seems silly to me, for me to do now.

A woman's sense of style and who she is can change with time as she matures. 

Do you love your wife as she grows and changes her style through the years, or are you chained to needing her to PAINT her face? Maybe that's how she feels.


----------



## turnera

I think some people are misconstruing what he's asking for. He's asking for her to wear two items of makeup and only once in a while when they go out. No painting. No daily makeup. Maybe once a month or every two months. Remember, she will rarely go out. It is a legitimate EN of his. But as he's said, she hasn't been meeting most of his ENs for a good six years now. Which means the marriage is broken, and he needs to address THAT before honing in on the makeup.

W2L, I've asked you twice now to describe the marriage and explain just what is going on there. HOW is it bad? WHY is it bad? What's been done about it?


----------



## Maricha75

First, W2L, I absolutely am not bitter. What would I have to be bitter about?

Second, I'm sorry, but I just cannot see a preference for wearing makeup as an emotional need. A WANT, yes, but not a NEED. I do, however, agree that she should look nice for him. That does not, however, mean that I agree she NEEDS to wear makeup for that. Shouldn't she get to decide, for herself, whether she looks good or not? I understand if she gained a lot of weight or didn't bathe regularly, or wore dirty/sloppy clothing all the time. But I don't agree about the makeup, unless SHE feels it is necessary to look good.

A friend of mine, two nights ago, decided to try fake eyelashes. She put them on, just kind of goofing around, and her boyfriend told her she was fake and a ho. She was having fun. She likes makeup. I told her to buy a pair for her little girl and play dress up with her. I also told her to do what makes HER feel good about herself. 

Before anyone says "that's hypocritical!", no, it's not. I still feel that wearing makeup is fake... even the so-called "natural look". But, my advice to her was so she would feel good about HERSELF. If she feels better with it, that's her choice. If she feels better without it, again, her choice. No one should be forced to do something they don't enjoy, just because someone else prefers it. 

I dye my hair. Yep, absolutely fake. My husband would prefer that I not dye it. But, at 41, I hate the grey hairs. Granted, at 35, he has more of them than I do, but not the point. I feel better about *myself* when the grey is hidden. I feel "old" when they show. His preference is to have my hair natural. It isn't a need. It's a want. And he is understanding about why I choose to dye it. 

Now, it has been stated that W2L wife is not meeting his EN. So, I guess I missed the actual needs she has not been meeting. Sex, I understand... but as was stated, the last 3 months it has been because she is ill. If that was an issue before, then I would agree. But, he's understanding about that, currently, because of the illness. So, what else is not being met?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## turnera

> What is an emotional need? It is a craving that, when satisfied, leaves you with a feeling of happiness and contentment, and, when unsatisfied, leaves you with a feeling of unhappiness and frustration. There are probably thousands of emotional needs. A need for birthday parties, peanut butter sandwiches, Monday Night Football, I could go on and on. Some people have some of those needs while others have different needs. If you feel good doing something, or if someone does something for you that makes you feel good, an emotional need has been met.
> 
> But not all emotional needs are created equally. When some are met, you may only feel comfortable--they make small Love Bank deposits. There are others, however, that can make you feel downright euphoric. In fact they make you so happy that you're likely to fall in love with the person that meets them. I call those our most important emotional needs because they make the largest Love Bank deposits of all. And those are the very same emotional needs that a husband and wife expect each other to meet in marriage.
> 
> By now you can probably see where I'm headed. My first goal when counseling a couple is to help them identify their most important emotional needs. Once those needs are identified, I help them learn to meet those needs for each other. I want them to make the largest deposits possible into each other's Love Banks. If all goes well, they begin making those large deposits and eventually they are in love with each other.
> Pay close attention to this next point I am about to make, because it is one of the most misunderstood aspects of my entire program.
> 
> Everyone is unique. While men on average pick a particular set of five emotional needs as their most important and women on average pick another set of five, any given man or woman can and do pick various combinations of the ten. So even though I know the most important emotional needs of the average man and woman, I don't know the emotional needs of any particular husband or wife.
> 
> I'm in the business of trying to save all marriages, not just average marriages, so I encourage each couple to ignore what I say about average male and female needs and identify those that are unique to them. That way each spouse's list of the most important emotional needs reflects what he or she appreciates the most. When they meet those needs for each other, they create the greatest happiness, and trigger a mutual feeling of love.
> Before you fill out the questionnaire read a short description of each need that I've provided for you so that you will be accurate in the choices you make.
> 
> 
> Affection
> Sexual Fulfillment
> Conversation
> Recreational Companionship
> Honesty and Openness
> *Physical Attractiveness*
> Financial Support
> Domestic Support
> Family Commitment
> Admiration
> 
> For many, physical attractiveness can be one of the greatest sources of love units. If you have this need, an attractive person will not only get your attention, but may distract you from whatever it was you were doing. In fact, that's what may have first drawn you to your spouse -- his or her physical attractiveness.
> There are some who consider this need to be temporary and important only in the beginning of a relationship. Some feel that after a couple get to know each other better, physical attractiveness should take a back seat to deeper and more intimate needs. And I've even heard some suggest that those with a need for physical attractiveness are immature or spiritually weak -- even subhuman!
> 
> But I don't judge important emotional needs, and I don't think you should either. The question you should ask is, what need when met deposits the most love units? If it's physical attractiveness, it should not be ignored. For many, the need for physical attractiveness not only helps create a relationship, but it continues on throughout marriage, and love units are deposited whenever the spouse is seen -- if he or she is physically attractive.
> 
> 
> Learn how to be an attractive spouse
> Among the various aspects of physical attractiveness, weight generally gets the most attention. Almost all of the complaints I hear regarding a spouse's loss of physical attractiveness are about being overweight. And when diet and exercise bring the spouse back to a healthy size, physical attractiveness almost always returns. *However, choice of clothing, hair style, makeup, and personal hygiene also come together to make a person attractive. Since attractiveness is usually in the eyes of the beholder, you are the ultimate judge of what is attractive to you.*
> 
> If the attractiveness of your spouse makes you feel great, and loss of that attractiveness would make you feel very frustrated, you should probably include this category on your list of important emotional needs.


----------



## Maricha75

And, yet, he says she is beautiful without it. 

You can share all the links and quotes you want. It isn't going to change my opinion on the subject. He *wants* her to wear makeup. He doesn't *need* her to wear it.

And, yes, I am aware you got it from Marriage Builders. I had to look it up because I never go to that site.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## Looking2Change

I wouldn't say my marriage is broken. We've had a lot of ups and downs. The downs usually go away but this time around they seem to be sticking around a lot longer.

We had financial troubles when I first started my business and I lost my job at the same time. We went from having a great income to having my income actually be in the negative. That was a MAJOR strain on things. She stood by my side and told me to focus on the business and we'll work things out.

Fast forward to now, and the business is doing amazing. Our combined income is over $300K per year so money is much less of a stress. Our sex life has always been hit or miss. When she's "ON" it's INSANE. it's often enough that we are both satisfied but enough time between that we are looking forward to the next go. When she is "OFF" which she's been for the better part of a year and a half I'm lucky to get some once a week at best. Prob. more like 3 times per month. This is a MAJOR MAJOR MAJOR problem for me but it's perfectly normal for her.

On a personal basis things are quite good. We don't argue or fight often (unless it's about lack of sex) but I feel she doesn't want to do anything. We go camping and have a seasonal site which is great because we get to spend a lot of time together there which is great. However, I need a companion that wants to do fun things like she used to do.

I'm very active and love working out. She doesn't really enjoy it and when I encourage her to join me it's mostly just excuses that she wants to watch TV. Fine, so I go by myself. I've had some pretty big promotions in the Martial Arts and she has never attended any of them. When I was a younger I was competing all over the country and one of the top competitors and my parents never once came to watch me. This brings me back to those times and I get resentful towards her.

I recently just bought a sick sports car and it's taken her nearly 2 months to get in it. then when she did she just complained that it's too loud, too fast, too uncomfortable, and attracts too much attention.

We haven't been out on a date in nearly 2 years. My idea of a date (since we NEVER go out) is to get dressed up, have someone take our son for the night, and stay at a hotel. This is the biggest challenge. It's hard first of all to get someone to take our son for the night. BUT, if she put the effort in we could get this easily taken care of. I feel she uses it as an excuse so she can just stay home and do nothing.

People on here say she's depressed but I honestly don't think that's the case here. I know she is now because she's sick but overall I think she would rather just stay in and do nothing and watch tv. She gives me a ton of freedom but I don't want to have to experience everything fun WITHOUT her.

Neither of us have ever cheated but to be completely honest I've come VERY close. I went on match.com and created a profile a while back. I never met anyone but I was ready to go that route. People on here are quick to say to just leave and divorce her and I've thought about it but like I said when things are good they are great. 

My needs would need to be:

sex 2-3 times per week NO EXCEPTIONS (unless sick etc)
Date night once per month for dinner etc. and 3-4 overnights per year
She wear makeup when we go out on these dates and sometimes during sex
She be more open to going out and experiencing things.
Just be more of a wife in general.

I told her she is more of a mother than she is a wife and she needs to find that balance if she wants us to work.


----------



## Livvie

Maricha75 said:


> And, yet, he says she is beautiful without it.
> 
> You can share all the links and quotes you want. It isn't going to change my opinion on the subject. He *wants* her to wear makeup. He doesn't *need* her to wear it.
> 
> And, yes, I am aware you got it from Marriage Builders. I had to look it up because I never go to that site.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


I completely agree with Maricha.

And if someone NEEDED me to wear make up, I'd change my opinion of that relationship.


----------



## Maricha75

@When2Leave, I am going to reply to your last post, and I PROMISE, I won't get "b*tchy" in my response. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## Looking2Change

Livvie said:


> I completely agree with Maricha.
> 
> And if someone NEEDED me to wear make up, I'd change my opinion of that relationship.


So, if the person you loved wanted you to wear makeup once or twice a month to make him happy you would leave?

If that's the case then you clearly are a selfish person. My wife has a ton of needs she needs me to take care of which I'm not crazy about doing but I know it's important to her so I do it for her. not a big deal because I know she is happy when I do it.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

I think you are getting beat up over this @When2Leave ... I can easily see your side.. and I DON'T think you are asking too much... 

My thoughts are more along this line.. when dating.. we need *to accept* how a man or women presents themselves.. if they used a little make up then or didn't...this is NOT the time to change them.. if it's a mismatch.. just move on...we should be happy with how they present themselves..out & about.... why should this go by the wayside after we marry... I don't feel it should.. to me that's like a "bait & switch" on a much smaller scale.. if it's something that the other is very pleased with, which makes them proud to have the other on their arm...

Some women like when a man "dresses up" when going out.. this may be a hardship even , a bit of a pain - he may have to spend good money on higher priced clothes at a Men's shop... when he doesn't have a high income like yours ... we're a family of 7 making less than $100,000 a year.. good thing that's not something I care about !!

But then there are other little things that MATTER to me -that would upset me if they were just tossed aside.. I do expect a certain level of how my husband presented himself to me - while dating.. that's why we fell in love & decided to marry.. 

Heck there are men who prefer fake boobs who have gotten less slack than you are over a little make up!! Something is not right with that !! 

When our last son got dumped by a girl who took great care to be that "knockout" ... I actually loved that she put so much into it.. she was stunning at every dance, the Prom...

I gotta be honest.. when he picked up a new girlfriend.. I thought she was so plain.. she never wore make up, didn't seem to care how she looked, - and maybe I should be ashamed of myself for this.. (go ahead women.. dump on me!!).. I seen a picture of her at her sisters wedding , with a little make up, all dolled up.. she was so much more attractive ... I secretly wanted for her to spice it up some...

It's not that I didn't like the girl.. I loved her.. love her family too.. but yes.. I felt she could be more physically appealing.... he ended up breaking her heart.. .was this related in any way... I don't have the answer to that...but he sure went from one extreme to the other in girlfriends...

All I know is .. No.. we shouldn't try to change anyone while dating.. BUT nor should we do an "about face" after the vows.. that's not fair either... and it could invite some conflict ...no matter the issue at hand. 

If I was a guy.. I would care about such things.. so I can't judge a man for it.. I think we all have our areas..

I came to this thread wanting to leave an inspiring post that was more geared in the other direction.. and I probably still will.. but when I seen you getting beat up.. I had to add my 2 cents.


----------



## Maricha75

When2Leave said:


> I wouldn't say my marriage is broken. We've had a lot of ups and downs. The downs usually go away but this time around they seem to be sticking around a lot longer.


Everyone has ups and downs in their marriage. You're not alone in that. And, yes, sometimes those downs stick around a little more often than makes us comfortable. So, I understand that one, too.



> We had financial troubles when I first started my business and I lost my job at the same time. We went from having a great income to having my income actually be in the negative. That was a MAJOR strain on things. She stood by my side and told me to focus on the business and we'll work things out.


When did this happen? Was it before or after she completely stopped wearing makeup? And, no, this isn't a slam about that. It just helps to put it all in a timeline, nothing more.



> Fast forward to now, and the business is doing amazing. Our combined income is over $300K per year so money is much less of a stress. Our sex life has always been hit or miss. When she's "ON" it's INSANE. it's often enough that we are both satisfied but enough time between that we are looking forward to the next go. When she is "OFF" which she's been for the better part of a year and a half I'm lucky to get some once a week at best. Prob. more like 3 times per month. This is a MAJOR MAJOR MAJOR problem for me but it's perfectly normal for her.


Totally hear you on wanting more sex, and don't blame you, AT ALL! It's always been like that with sex? Was it like that BEFORE you got married, too? Or did that happen right after, as well?

But, regarding the business doing better... how long did it take to get to that point? 



> On a personal basis things are quite good. We don't argue or fight often (unless it's about lack of sex) but I feel she doesn't want to do anything. We go camping and have a seasonal site which is great because we get to spend a lot of time together there which is great. However, I need a companion that wants to do fun things like she used to do.


Is there anything that she enjoys doing, that you might take an interest in, to increase time together? I mean that in the same capacity as camping. You both enjoy it, which is great. But is there anything she does, without you, that you might be open to trying out so you can have that fun companionship?



> I'm very active and love working out. She doesn't really enjoy it and when I encourage her to join me it's mostly just excuses that she wants to watch TV. Fine, so I go by myself. I've had some pretty big promotions in the Martial Arts and she has never attended any of them. When I was a younger I was competing all over the country and one of the top competitors and my parents never once came to watch me. This brings me back to those times and I get resentful towards her.


Have you mentioned this to her? Have you told her how important these are to you and when she isn't there, you feel like you don't have her support? Have you mentioned that it reminds you of when your parents didn't go, either?



> I recently just bought a sick sports car and it's taken her nearly 2 months to get in it. then when she did she just complained that it's too loud, too fast, too uncomfortable, and attracts too much attention.


On this one... I would have to agree with her lol. Has she ever liked sports cars, though? I never did. And after I was in a car accident (not sport car related!), I have been very anxious when faced with being a passenger in fast and loud (to me) cars. And, the part about attracting too much attention is actually a clue. She doesn't WANT attention. At least, not from other people.



> We haven't been out on a date in nearly 2 years. My idea of a date (since we NEVER go out) is to get dressed up, have someone take our son for the night, and stay at a hotel. This is the biggest challenge. It's hard first of all to get someone to take our son for the night. BUT, if she put the effort in we could get this easily taken care of. I feel she uses it as an excuse so she can just stay home and do nothing.


Would you be willing to compromise on the definition of a date? What if you were to just go out to dinner a few times each month (maybe once a week?), and maybe a movie? Then, take a night every few months to spend at a hotel. Some of those dates nights can be something YOU specifically enjoy, and some can be what SHE enjoys. But, the point would be to spend time together, just the two of you.



> People on here say she's depressed but I honestly don't think that's the case here. I know she is now because she's sick but overall I think she would rather just stay in and do nothing and watch tv. She gives me a ton of freedom but I don't want to have to experience everything fun WITHOUT her.


Honestly, I think she might be depressed. And, it may have begun with the business/loss of income. That may have triggered it, but she did all she could to be supportive. And it drained her. She hid it, I suspect, until she couldn't hide it anymore. And now, she denies depression because she doesn't want you to think she holds resentment toward you for the loss of income and the things that followed.



> Neither of us have ever cheated but to be completely honest I've come VERY close. I went on match.com and created a profile a while back. I never met anyone but I was ready to go that route. People on here are quick to say to just leave and divorce her and I've thought about it but like I said when things are good they are great.


Is it possible that she knows about it, but never said anything? That could also add to depression. And, that doesn't mean she would start doing what you want, necessarily, to keep you. She could have chosen an alternate route, if she saw it. 



> My needs would need to be:
> 
> sex 2-3 times per week NO EXCEPTIONS (unless sick etc)
> Date night once per month for dinner etc. and 3-4 overnights per year
> She wear makeup when we go out on these dates and sometimes during sex
> She be more open to going out and experiencing things.
> Just be more of a wife in general.
> 
> I told her she is more of a mother than she is a wife and she needs to find that balance if she wants us to work.


Honestly, that mostly sounds reasonable. The only exception would be *requiring* makeup. Do you want her to have fun? Be comfortable with you? Why give her a dress code to spend time together? Now, I do admit that it would be awkward to go to a 5 star restaurant in ripped jeans and a t-shirt. But, other than saying, "Babe, I would like to go out to dinner at XYZ restaurant this weekend, so pick out a nice outfit, please.", why dictate what she has on? She *may* be harboring resentment toward you for just that reason...

All in all, I think you could probably get this figured out, but you're going to have to listen to what she's telling you... instead of the "blah, blah, blah" you said earlier in the thread.


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## Maricha75

When2Leave said:


> So, if the person you loved wanted you to wear makeup once or twice a month to make him happy you would leave?
> 
> If that's the case then you clearly are a selfish person. My wife has a ton of needs she needs me to take care of which I'm not crazy about doing but I know it's important to her so I do it for her. not a big deal because I know she is happy when I do it.


If my husband said that I HAD to wear makeup, or I HAD to go without it, without allowing ME to decide what to do with MY face, yes, I would tell him to leave. (I am the head of household on the lease, so I would be the one to stay, per the rental agreement... as long as I did not instigate any sort of domestic violence)

ETA: Even in your response, W2L, you used the word "wanted", as opposed to "needed". But I also have a question. What is she needing that you are not crazy about doing for her? And, are you certain she *needs* you to do these things, and not that she *wants* you to do them?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## 225985

Catherine602 said:


> If you gave 5-10K bonuses to each of 2,000 employees of the company, it would be more beneficial economically.


More beneficially economically to whom? Not the shareholders, who actually own the company. Most companies do not exist for the purpose of stimulating the national economy. You voted for O. That is his job.


----------



## karole

Buy her a gift card for a make-over - get her a facial and have a professional do her make-up for her and recommend products for her skin.

I honestly cannot imagine never wearing make-up, especially going out - I'd feel naked.


----------



## Maricha75

karole said:


> Buy her a gift card for a make-over - get her a facial and have a professional do her make-up for her and recommend products for her skin.
> 
> I honestly cannot imagine never wearing make-up, especially going out - I'd feel naked.


I suspect that doing this would be met with the same response as buying the makeup himself. If she truly just does not want to wear it, it would be pointless to send her to a professional to put it on her.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Maricha75 said:


> If my husband said that I HAD to wear makeup, or I HAD to go without it, without allowing ME to decide what to do with MY face, yes, I would tell him to leave. (I am the head of household on the lease, so I would be the one to stay, per the rental agreement... as long as I did not instigate any sort of domestic violence)
> 
> ETA: Even in your response, W2L, you used the word "wanted", as opposed to "needed". But I also have a question. What is she needing that you are not crazy about doing for her? And, are you certain she *needs* you to do these things, and not that she *wants* you to do them?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


But Maricha75 ..I bet you felt exactly the same when dating, before you married.. and your husband's GREAT with it..he's probably one of those guys who doesn't like make up even... so you 2 were on the same page -and have remained.. 

@When2Leave's wife was very different.. so he's on the receiving end of a bait & switch here.. can't we acknowledge this? .. even if others find it stupid.. and want to split hairs over wants & needs.. 



> *When2Leave said: *My wife used to dress up and wear makeup and always had her nails done before we were married and these were things that were SUPER important to me. Once we got married the nails came off and the makeup pretty much stopped along with her dressing sexy.


----------



## karole

Maricha75 said:


> I suspect that doing this would be met with the same response as buying the makeup himself. If she truly just does not want to wear it, it would be pointless to send her to a professional to put it on her.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Maybe not. Neither you nor I know that do we? It was merely a suggestion. Perhaps she would feel so much better about herself after being pampered, that she would love it. You never know.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

I had to go looking for this scene on you tube.. (not the best of clips) ......The words from "Carly" is how we all want to be seen by our men... this was a moment from "Bachelor in Paradise".... (Yeah I like watching these wacky shows where love goes crazy, jealous, angry, wrong & sometimes very right, the dynamics of the sexes fascinate me)...

When I seen this scene.. I melted along with her...and thought of this thread a couple days ago.. feeling this is what others are trying to get across.. I do feel, at the end of the day...all women want this from their men... (but still does it have to mean we have to shun some make up if he likes a little now & then.. I just don't think so)..

Carly & Evan.. she HATED him, thought he had no "swag".. he was the biggest Nerd.. but he's won her over... this scene was very touching.. they were inside some Hut with Indians.... over heated.. surely not looking their best. and he poured his heart out to her.. this was what she said afterwards .... 

Can play it here... Carly & Evan moment  click to 38:50 - 40:15 on the bar... 

"Ya know, you're sitting in there, sweaty, your body's going all sorts of ways, sand everywhere, your hairs a mess, and he's looking at me like _YOU ARE SO BEAUTIFUL _ and ....It's incredible to be sitting in front of a guy , probably looking your worst, and he's looking at you like you radiate... Whoa !!...that's what we've all been searching for"....


----------



## Lila

When2Leave said:


> How can it be a waste of time or money when it's important to ME? Plus, I buy all her makeup and I don't get the cheap CVS crap. My wife is beautiful but* I can't help it that I prefer when women wear makeup. It's what I like and I'm not ashamed of that. I can't help it it's who I am*.


Have you told your wife this using these exact same words?

You admit to having a preference for women who wear makeup but you don't seem to want to own up to being superficial. 

I think your first step is to actually admit to yourself that YES, you are superficial and there's nothing wrong with being that way. Some people put a high value on non-physical qualities. You happen to value physical ones, a.k.a. superficial ones. 

Then tell your wife that when you married her, you thought you were getting a compatible partner. Someone who met your superficial needs. If she's no longer going to meet those needs, then you are no longer compatible. 

If you wish to make this the hill to die on, then explain that you are making wearing make up a requirement for the marriage. There's no reason to continue in the relationship with someone who can't meet your superficial needs.

Oh and for background, I wear very expensive make up (just spent $128 on a mascara, tube of lipstick, and lip liner) nearly every single day. I just think if this is the end all be all in your relationship, then you need to be blunt.


----------



## Livvie

When2Leave said:


> Livvie said:
> 
> 
> 
> I completely agree with Maricha.
> 
> And if someone NEEDED me to wear make up, I'd change my opinion of that relationship.
> 
> 
> 
> So, if the person you loved wanted you to wear makeup once or twice a month to make him happy you would leave?
> 
> If that's the case then you clearly are a selfish person. My wife has a ton of needs she needs me to take care of which I'm not crazy about doing but I know it's important to her so I do it for her. not a big deal because I know she is happy when I do it.
Click to expand...

Maybe you didn't really read what I wrote. I said it would change my opinion of the relationship.

I'm not a selfish person. You don't know me at all. It pisses me off that you think you can judge that I am a "selfish person." 

That can just as easily be turned around. Maybe you are the selfish person in your marriage.... She clearly doesn't want to wear make up or she would. You just can't let it go though.


----------



## Maricha75

SimplyAmorous said:


> But Maricha75 ..I bet you felt exactly the same when dating, before you married.. and your husband's GREAT with it..he's probably one of those guys who doesn't like make up even... so you 2 were on the same page -and have remained..
> 
> @When2Leave's wife was very different.. so he's on the receiving end of a bait & switch here.. can't we acknowledge this? .. even if others find it stupid.. and want to split hairs over wants & needs..


Early on, I did wear makeup. Early on, I liked it. The point that I have been trying to make is that even if I DID still want to wear it, he wouldn't try to MAKE me not wear it. And, yes, he is one who doesn't like makeup. 

So is my dad. He preferred my mom without it, but didn't tell her he "needed" her not to wear it. In fact, I think he may have done the "bait and switch", himself. Mom wore it from the start, and about 8 years in (give or take a couple years), he decided he preferred without. Still, he never told her that she had to go without it because it was an "emotional need" or whatever other term can be used in its place. He made his preference known, and let her decide, for herself, how SHE felt about it. 

As did my husband. If I decided, today, that I want to wear makeup again, he'd be fine with it. I am my own person, as he is. We have our preferences. And we are free to decide what we want to do with our hair and bodies, ourselves. 

I'm not so sure it is a definite bait and switch in their case, though. I think there may be a bit more involved here, after reading his post about the finances, etc. If there is resentment on her part, and she is saying he is trying to change her, then the suggestion of another poster to get a gift card to have a pro do a makeover will only make her more resentful. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## SimplyAmorous

I guess our marriage is a little different Maricha .. I care that my husband LOVES the way I look... if he didn't , the sex would slow down and I wouldn't be a happy camper ....that right there would cause our relationship to wither & die...

I love how he looks with some stubble.. that's the most attractive to me -on a man.... I hate beards -he knows this... If he decides to throw how I feel to the wind....it's not going to be pretty.. but we haven't changed in these things since dating.. if anything... I have cared more so since getting older.. not a bad thing... Each couple has to work this out on their own.. 

I am happy my husband CARES... he can be a little superficial.. I guess I am too ! so we're "compatibly" superficial in these matters.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

.


----------



## Maricha75

SimplyAmorous said:


> *I guess our marriage is a little different Maricha .. I care that my husband LOVES the way I look*... if he didn't , the sex would slow down and I wouldn't be a happy camper ....that right there would cause our relationship to wither & die...
> 
> I love how he looks with some stubble.. that's the most attractive to me -on a man.... I hate beards -he knows this... If he decides to throw how I feel to the wind....it's not going to be pretty.. but we haven't changed in these things since dating.. if anything... I have cared more so since getting older.. not a bad thing... Each couple has to work this out on their own..
> 
> I am happy my husband CARES... he can be a little superficial.. I guess I am too ! so we're "compatibly" superficial in these matters.


That was a little harsh, SA. I care that my husband loves the way I look. But, you're right. Our marriage is definitely different. We accept each other as individuals, acknowledging that we will change from time to time... and we adapt. I prefer a little facial hair. Specifically, a goatee. But, most often, he has an actual beard. I'm ok with that because I love HIM. Even if he shaved it all off, it's still ok with me because HE is the same person, with or without facial hair. I fell in love with HIM, not his facial hair. He fell in love with ME, not my makeup (or lack, thereof).

I dye my hair for me. I have had red and blonde at different times. I am toying with going unconventional in the near future. Whether my hair is blonde, blue, red, purple, or rainbow, I am still me... the woman he loves. Same thing if I decided to start agonizing over the process of putting on a different face every morning. It wouldn't change how he feels about *me*. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## SimplyAmorous

If I dyed my hair purple my husband would think I lost my mind, he wouldn't like it.... AT ALL.. nor would it be OK if I just went "gray"... but neither would I feel this way...

When I said I care that my husband loves how I look... it never entered my brain you would take that back on yourself.. so no slight or being harsh intended here.. 

I just don't feel that others should be judged on this.. when I read Harley's stuff (Author of His Needs / Her Needs).. I think he'd even agree with me.. that it's "too independent" to be saying... "well it's MY body.. I can do with it whatever I want"- he has used this very example in speaking about such things..

His marital insight has always been .. to CARE how our spouses feel, to take this into account...so we're both happy.. so yeah.. a couple needs to work it out.. 

I could see if his wife was allergic, that would suck.. but what is her aversion to a little mascara, a little lip stick, some heels, a fancy dress, when going out ... when it would mean so much to him ??

Anyway.. those who aren't superficial IN THIS AREA... there are other areas one may be... (not meaning you specifically Maricha, just speaking to the masses)... like how much money a man makes (lower income men - no way, he isn't good enough for me!), or if he wasn't College educated/ how intelligent a man is... that stirs the attraction for some women .. there is a name for this.. aren't we all superficial in some way or another ?? 

Is any one area more damning somehow.. that we need to correct someone for how they feel ??


----------



## Maricha75

Oh, if I choose to dye my hair purple, my husband may very well think I lost my mind lol. But, I have chosen a color close at one point... Burgundy. But, that's the fun part about changing the color like that. Sure, he teases, but it is playful teasing. My hair is naturally a dark blonde. I dye it closer to ash blonde. Very light. He calls me a "Polish blonde". Why? Because a small amount of my ancestry is Polish... and my hair is blonde. So, if I choose purple or blue or pink or a rainbow, I already know I will get similar teasing... and it doesn't bother me one bit. 

I haven't read HNHN. I have no desire to read it. But, regarding the idea of "it's MY body"... if it's something permanent, that won't wash off or can't be easily covered/removed without pain or spending a lot of money, I would never consider doing it if he was adamant about not wanting it. As an example... tattoos. If he says "no way, never", I won't do it. But, if he says, "show me what you're thinking so we can decide if it's worth it ", I probably would do it... if he said ok. And same if he wanted one. 

But, something temporary, like changing hair color or wearing makeup or shaving/not shaving a beard? Nope. 

As for W2L's wife... why can't her aversion simply be that she just does not like putting it on her face? What can't she just *not like* wearing it? Why does she have to give some kind of *specific, elaborate* reason for her own preference?

I have no problem if people are superficial in any particular area... if they own it. And if they don't try to force someone to follow *their* wants. 

I am not correcting him on how he feels. The only thing I have said all along is that it isn't right to try to force his wife to do it. If he wanted to force his wife to have sex, we wouldn't tell him it's ok. Why is it OK to tell him that he had the right to make her put something on herself if she does not want to? 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## Looking2Change

There has to be physical attraction in a relationship. She will get dolled up with makeup and lingerie for sex but never when we leave the house. 

Everyone here is ripping my head off because I like my wife wearing lipstick yet other spouses go out and cheat on them and everyone here supports them.

I'm a monster because I want my wife to wear lipstick yet other can have affairs that last years and you guys tell the SO they should stay in the marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Looking2Change

I never once forced her to wear makeup. I don't know how my words for twisted here. I want my wife to wear it that is all. I never said I was going to divorce her if she didn't or anything like that. I simply stated that it's important to me that she would wear it occasionally


I'm such a loser for wanting my wife to look sexy
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

When2Leave said:


> I never once forced her to wear makeup. I don't know how my words for twisted here. I want my wife to wear it that is all. *I never said I was going to divorce her if she didn't or anything like that.* I simply stated that it's important to me that she would wear it occasionally
> 
> 
> I'm such a loser for wanting my wife to look sexy


You're not a loser. And hearing the bolded might reassure your wife, if you think she might be concerned about that.


----------



## Lila

When2Leave said:


> I never once forced her to wear makeup. I don't know how my words for twisted here. I want my wife to wear it that is all. I never said I was going to divorce her if she didn't or anything like that. I simply stated that it's important to me that she would wear it occasionally
> 
> 
> I'm such a loser for wanting my wife to look sexy
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well then.....if the make up thing isn't a big deal to you, then try to not to take it personally when she refuses to do it. 

Don't look at it as her loving you less when she doesn't wear the make up. Look at it as her feeling secure and confident based on the affection you genuinely give her.


----------



## Maricha75

When2Leave said:


> *There has to be physical attraction in a relationship. She will get dolled up with makeup and lingerie for sex but never when we leave the house.*


You JUST answered why, in two posts. In a previous post, you said she didn't like your new sports car because it attracts too much attention. SHE DOES NOT WANT THE ATTENTION FROM OTHERS! She is cool with doing it for YOU, and YOU ALONE. But she doesn't want OTHERS to be looking at her the way YOU do. And I stated this earlier, too... in my reply to your previous post.



> Everyone here is ripping my head off because I like my wife wearing lipstick yet other spouses go out and cheat on them and everyone here supports them.


No. I am trying to get you to THINK ABOUT why she doesn't want to do it. You already had the answer and couldn't see past your own wishes. It was in the "blah, blah, blah" you stated early in the thread. And, no, if a spouse is currently cheating and had no intention of putting in the work to fix it (if that is the path chosen), but would rather rugs weep the whole thing, they are NOT supported here. 



> I'm a monster because I want my wife to wear lipstick yet other can have affairs that last years and you guys tell the SO they should stay in the marriage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No. You are comparing apples and oranges here. The only ones who are *suggested* to stay together are the ones who are remorseful. Even then, the betrayed spouse is told that if they *want* to divorce, then divorce... even if the cheating spouse is remorseful. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## Looking2Change

My wife likes when I wear certain shoes and I've never liked the style but I bought a few pairs because I know it makes her happy. I also have a ton of dress shirts that are of very bold colors which is not me but again I know my wife loves when I wear them so I do it. It is the same thing
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Maricha75

When2Leave said:


> I never once forced her to wear makeup. I don't know how my words for twisted here. I want my wife to wear it that is all. I never said I was going to divorce her if she didn't or anything like that. I simply stated that it's important to me that she would wear it occasionally
> 
> 
> I'm such a loser for wanting my wife to look sexy
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She wants to look sexy FOR YOU, not for others. You already said she wears it for you, along with lingerie, when it's just the two of you. She wants to save that sexy persona for you, and you alone.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## Maricha75

When2Leave said:


> My wife likes when I wear certain shoes and I've never liked the style but I bought a few pairs because I know it makes her happy. I also have a ton of dress shirts that are of very bold colors which is not me but again I know my wife loves when I wear them so I do it. It is the same thing
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Did you tell HER this, though? Did you try to bring up the subject in THIS way? If not, then try approaching it this way. If you have... then stop wearing them. If she asks why, explain it JUST as you did, here. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## 225985

When2Leave said:


> My wife likes when I wear certain shoes and I've never liked the style but I bought a few pairs because I know it makes her happy. I also have a ton of dress shirts that are of very bold colors which is not me but again I know my wife loves when I wear them so I do it. It is the same thing
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Stop doing that.


----------



## Lila

When2Leave said:


> My wife likes when I wear certain shoes and I've never liked the style but I bought a few pairs because I know it makes her happy. I also have a ton of dress shirts that are of very bold colors which is not me but again I know my wife loves when I wear them so I do it. It is the same thing
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You're very sweet to do that for your wife but what you have going on here is a covert contract. You are doing things she likes expecting her to respond in kind. Then you get upset when she doesn't respond as expected. That's unhealthy.

Instead, speak plainly. Tell her exactly what you want. She'll either do it or wont, but at least you could put the issue to bed. If it's not a big enough issue for you to draw the line in the sand, drop it. You're riling yourself up and pi$$ing her off. Building resentment all around.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

When2Leave said:


> My wife likes when I wear certain shoes and I've never liked the style but I bought a few pairs because I know it makes her happy. I also have a ton of dress shirts that are of very bold colors which is not me but again I know my wife loves when I wear them so I do it. It is the same thing
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



See now those are good examples as to why I feel YOU are simply not being unreasonabe here.. her using a little make up could be easily compared to this.. 

I guess I am wondering how you have approached this situation.. what have you said to her.. and what are her reasons she rebuffs ..you've laid all this out here to us.. but how have you laid it out *to her*...

Women & our pesky emotions... if you say something the wrong way.. you may never live it down.. Have you put yourself in the dog house over this ??


----------



## Maricha75

SimplyAmorous said:


> See now those are good examples as to why I feel YOU are simply not being unreasonabe here.. her using a little make up could be easily compared to this..
> 
> I guess I am wondering how you have approached this situation.. what have you said to her.. and what are her reasons she rebuffs ..you've laid all this out here to us.. but how have you laid it out *to her*...
> 
> Women & our pesky emotions... if you say something the wrong way.. you may never live it down.. Have you put yourself in the dog house over this ??


Oh, good... at least we now agree! Whew!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## Buddy400

Lila said:


> Instead, speak plainly. Tell her exactly what you want. She'll either do it or wont, but at least you could put the issue to bed. If it's not a big enough issue for you to draw the line in the sand, drop it.


I highly recommend the above.

And, if you clearly explain what she could do to make you happy and she still doesn't bother, that should tell you something.

Often a partner like this really doesn't give a sh!t about your happiness, but it's a good idea to make sure.


----------



## karole

Why can't spouses occasionally do something just because it makes their spouse happy? Whether it's putting on a little make up or wearing a specific color? Let's admit it, most women look better with a little make up on, so aren't you both winning? I fail to see how the wife would harm herself or should be upset that she's doing something just because someone else wants her to do it, by just putting on a little make up on occasionally. Good grief. He isn't asking her to donate a kidney


----------



## turnera

Maricha75 said:


> And, yet, he says she is beautiful without it.
> 
> You can share all the links and quotes you want. It isn't going to change my opinion on the subject. He *wants* her to wear makeup. He doesn't *need* her to wear it.
> 
> And, yes, I am aware you got it from Marriage Builders. I had to look it up because I never go to that site.


I don't NEED my house to be kept up, either. But it is my #1 EN. Because it is what matters to me.

You are being way too literal.


----------



## Looking2Change

turnera said:


> I don't NEED my house to be kept up, either. But it is my #1 EN. Because it is what matters to me.
> 
> You are being way too literal.


Doing a lot of the housework is something that is important to my wife. Meaning, she wants me to take care of a lot of the cleaning and laundry because my work schedule is much more open. A while back I came home early from camp and spent 6 hours cleaning the house from basement to attic and everything in between.

When she came home she didn't even say much which pissed me off more than you can imagine. Then, when it was time for sex she blew me off to watch Big Brother. Needless to say that since that point I cut WAY back on the housework and I explained to her that the relationship needs to be reciprical in order for it to work.

It can't be one-sided and if it's important to her that I keep up with the house work then she needs to understand it's important she take care of one of my needs. I'm not saying we do something to get something in return but it needs to be equal work into the relationship.

I feel that I try so hard to make things work and she just wants to roll with the punches. I guess I'm starting to feel that things are drifting apart and we're becoming more and more roommates than husband/wife.

I'm also afraid that since she's had Lyme Disease and we haven't had sex in 3 months that this will be the new norm moving forward. I won't live that way. I've already told her that many times that if our sex lives don't improve I'm done.

about 2 years ago I moved out for a month or so because of the lack of sex. Things got better after that but again it only lasted a short time before things went back.

I guess I'm just very confused about what to do and there is a lot more here than her not wanting to look good for me.


----------



## jld

When2Leave said:


> Doing a lot of the housework is something that is important to my wife. Meaning, she wants me to take care of a lot of the cleaning and laundry because my work schedule is much more open. A while back I came home early from camp and spent 6 hours cleaning the house from basement to attic and everything in between.
> 
> When she came home she didn't even say much which pissed me off more than you can imagine. Then, when it was time for sex she blew me off to watch Big Brother. Needless to say that since that point I cut WAY back on the housework and I explained to her that the relationship needs to be reciprical in order for it to work.
> 
> It can't be one-sided and if it's important to her that I keep up with the house work then she needs to understand it's important she take care of one of my needs. I'm not saying we do something to get something in return but it needs to be equal work into the relationship.
> 
> I feel that I try so hard to make things work and she just wants to roll with the punches. I guess I'm starting to feel that things are drifting apart and we're becoming more and more roommates than husband/wife.
> 
> I'm also afraid that since she's had Lyme Disease and we haven't had sex in 3 months that this will be the new norm moving forward. I won't live that way. I've already told her that many times that if our sex lives don't improve I'm done.
> 
> *about 2 years ago I moved out for a month or so because of the lack of sex.* Things got better after that but again it only lasted a short time before things went back.
> 
> I guess I'm just very confused about what to do and there is a lot more here than her not wanting to look good for me.


I bet the bolded was a big trust breaker for her. 

Have you two gone to counseling, OP? Has either of you gone alone?


----------



## Looking2Change

Last year I tried to get her to go to couples counseling and she refused. She said she would NEVER talk to a shrink no matter what. I ended up going alone for a few months and she would ridicule me about it after. She would say things like "how was your crazy doctor?" 

Then, he would give me advice on how to spice things up and when I would try she would say "you're only doing this because your crazy doctor told you to." I guess I feel that I'm putting in all the work and it's all for nothing.

It all goes back to my user name on here. When 2 Leave..... At which point do I decide I can't be in a one sided relationship any longer and move on? I do love her but things need to improve.


----------



## turnera

Does she have toxic shame?
What is Toxic Shame? | Psych Central



> At which point do I decide I can't be in a one sided relationship any longer and move on? I do love her but things need to improve.


At the point where you sit her down and plainly, clearly tell her why the marriage is not working for you anymore, and if she can't show you how and why she wants to remain married, and if she's not willing to pay attention to your needs, you'll accept her answer and you'll move on. 

But not before you've had that conversation.


----------



## jld

When2Leave said:


> Last year I tried to get her to go to couples counseling and she refused. She said she would NEVER talk to a shrink no matter what. I ended up going alone for a few months and she would ridicule me about it after. She would say things like "how was your crazy doctor?"
> 
> Then, he would give me advice on how to spice things up and when I would try she would say "you're only doing this because your crazy doctor told you to." I guess I feel that I'm putting in all the work and it's all for nothing.
> 
> It all goes back to my user name on here. When 2 Leave..... *At which point do I decide I can't be in a one sided relationship any longer and move on?* I do love her but things need to improve.


Wow, that had to have been hard.

Did your counselor offer you any guidance on the bolded?


----------



## Looking2Change

jld said:


> Wow, that had to have been hard.
> 
> Did your counselor offer you any guidance on the bolded?


He did but it became pointless. He did say that I was in a one sided marriage and in a difficult situation. He encouraged me to get her to come in but she wouldn't budge. I asked if that if I were to leave her over this what it change her mind and she said NO.

I've sat her down hundreds of times and tried to explain this to her but it just turns into a fight. She gets super defensive and her response is more or less "if you don't like it then leave. This is who I am."

I've got back and forth about leaving or not. I don't have a scarcity mentality and I know I can find someone else fairly easily. I hate to throw away 15 years of my life with her but if things can't improve I don't have a choice.

I fear more than anyone can imagine that our sex lives are now DEAD because of this Lyme Disease. I know this is going to be an excuse for her for EVERYTHING.

I asked if we should go back to Disney again next year and she responded "all that is important right now is getting better and nothing else matters." I explained that she has a 98% chance that by next Spring she will be completely recovered and she said she can't even consider that right now.


----------



## Maricha75

turnera said:


> I don't NEED my house to be kept up, either. But it is my #1 EN. Because it is what matters to me.
> 
> *You are being way too literal.*


I disagree. You really do need your house kept up because it is unhealthy to live in filth.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## Catherine602

blueinbr said:


> More beneficially economically to whom? Not the shareholders, who actually own the company. Most companies do not exist for the purpose of stimulating the national economy. You voted for O. That is his job.


What is wrong @blueinbr? What you posted makes no sense. Calm down please, I have no fight with you. I respect you. Sometimes I make silly comments but I don't mean to upset you or anyone for that matter.


----------



## 225985

When2Leave said:


> He did but it became pointless. He did say that I was in a one sided marriage and in a difficult situation. He encouraged me to get her to come in but she wouldn't budge. I asked if that if I were to leave her over this what it change her mind and she said NO.
> 
> 
> 
> I've sat her down hundreds of times and tried to explain this to her but it just turns into a fight. She gets super defensive and her response is more or less "if you don't like it then leave. This is who I am."
> 
> 
> 
> I've got back and forth about leaving or not. I don't have a scarcity mentality and I know I can find someone else fairly easily. I hate to throw away 15 years of my life with her but if things can't improve I don't have a choice.
> 
> 
> 
> I fear more than anyone can imagine that our sex lives are now DEAD because of this Lyme Disease. I know this is going to be an excuse for her for EVERYTHING.
> 
> 
> 
> I asked if we should go back to Disney again next year and she responded "all that is important right now is getting better and nothing else matters." I explained that she has a 98% chance that by next Spring she will be completely recovered and she said she can't even consider that right now.




Wow, OP. I really understand you now. I am living this same thing but am a few years further along than you. ( No lyme disease but something else). For me it has not gotten better with time, only worse. 

IMO it is not just the makeup. To me the make issue is symbolic of your marriage. You know now what Year 16 will look like, Year 20 ( a little worse and no sex etc). Year 25. Ugh.


----------



## Looking2Change

blueinbr said:


> Wow, OP. I really understand you now. I am living this same thing but am a few years further along than you. ( No lyme disease but something else). For me it has not gotten better with time, only worse.
> 
> IMO it is not just the makeup. To me the make issue is symbolic of your marriage. You know now what Year 16 will look like, Year 20 ( a little worse and no sex etc). Year 25. Ugh.


That's what I'm afraid of to be totally honest. I guess I need to get thru the Lyme Disease and when she's better if things don't change I NEED to move on. Right now my life is mostly great. I have a great job that I LOVE and I've gotten rid of all the negative people in my life. Everything has been great EXCEPT for my relationship with my wife.


----------



## jld

When2Leave said:


> That's what I'm afraid of to be totally honest. I guess I need to get thru the Lyme Disease and when she's better if things don't change I NEED to move on. Right now my life is mostly great. I have a great job that I LOVE and I've gotten rid of all the negative people in my life. Everything has been great EXCEPT for my relationship with my wife.


I don't think I could stay with someone who refused counseling.

Do you two have children?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Maricha75

blueinbr said:


> Wow, OP. I really understand you now. I am living this same thing but am a few years further along than you. ( No lyme disease but something else). For me it has not gotten better with time, only worse.
> 
> IMO it is not just the makeup. To me the make issue is symbolic of your marriage. You know now what Year 16 will look like, Year 20 ( a little worse and no sex etc). Year 25. Ugh.






When2Leave said:


> That's what I'm afraid of to be totally honest. I guess I need to get thru the Lyme Disease and when she's better if things don't change I NEED to move on. Right now my life is mostly great. I have a great job that I LOVE and I've gotten rid of all the negative people in my life. Everything has been great EXCEPT for my relationship with my wife.


I think blue is right, believe it or not. Putting it *all* together, I can see it really isn't about the makeup, at all. Like anything else, you can't *make* her do it. Once she is better, sit her down and talk to her about it one more time. This time, you need to be sure she understands that you will no longer tolerate a one-sided marriage. Make sure she is crystal clear on what this entails. But, the one thing I am going to suggest is NOT to put the emphasis on getting dolled up to go out to dinner and/or a movie. Don't stress that she *must* look a specific way when going out because she will likely tune you out, completely shutting down. Do, however, point out that such things as being there for special achievements and supporting you in different endeavors is a huge part of lessening that one-sided gap. Maybe she will change her perspective... Maybe she won't. But by laying it all out there, and watching her response, you will get your answer... one way or another. 

W2L, even then, you can hope for the best, but still prepare for the worst. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## Maricha75

jld said:


> I don't think I could stay with someone who refused counseling.
> 
> Do you two have children?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I believe he said they have one son. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

Maricha75 said:


> I believe he said they have one son.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Thanks, Maricha. Do you know how old?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Maricha75

jld said:


> Thanks, Maricha. Do you know how old?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not sure, but I think young. He mentioned they would need someone to stay with him overnight if they went to a hotel for a night.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

Maricha75 said:


> I think blue is right, believe it or not. Putting it *all* together, I can see it really isn't about the makeup, at all. Like anything else, you can't *make* her do it. Once she is better, sit her down and talk to her about it one more time. This time, you need to be sure she understands that you will no longer tolerate a one-sided marriage. Make sure she is crystal clear on what this entails. But, the one thing I am going to suggest is NOT to put the emphasis on getting dolled up to go out to dinner and/or a movie. Don't stress that she *must* look a specific way when going out because she will likely tune you out, completely shutting down. Do, however, point out that such things as being there for special achievements and supporting you in different endeavors is a huge part of lessening that one-sided gap. Maybe she will change her perspective... Maybe she won't. But by laying it all out there, and watching her response, you will get your answer... one way or another.
> 
> W2L, even then, you can hope for the best, but still prepare for the worst.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


I think putting it in terms of what he will "tolerate" might not be received well. 

OP, it might be easier just to take a decision about leaving. If she has a true change of heart and becomes open to counseling, you can always reevaluate.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Maricha75 said:


> Not sure, but I think young. He mentioned they would need someone to stay with him overnight if they went to a hotel for a night.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Ok, thanks again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NobodySpecial

SimplyAmorous said:


> But Maricha75 ..I bet you felt exactly the same when dating, before you married.. and your husband's GREAT with it..he's probably one of those guys who doesn't like make up even... so you 2 were on the same page -and have remained..
> 
> @When2Leave's wife was very different.. so he's on the receiving end of a *bait & switch *here.. can't we acknowledge this? .. even if others find it stupid.. and want to split hairs over wants & needs..


People change. Not everything is a bait and switch. The things that OP wants with regard to engagement from his wife are totally reasonable. But the idea that MAKEUP is some kind of deal breaker is absurd. She does not want to wear make up. BFD. If not being able to change my attitudes about things like makeup caused me to be considered a bait and switcher with my husband, I would be super unhappy.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

NobodySpecial said:


> People change. Not everything is a bait and switch. The things that OP wants with regard to engagement from his wife are totally reasonable. But the idea that MAKEUP is some kind of deal breaker is absurd. She does not want to wear make up. BFD. If not being able to change my attitudes about things like makeup caused me to be considered a bait and switcher with my husband, I would be super unhappy.


But that's the point.. it's such *a little thing*.. what is her problem ?? everyone who reads this thread will take a side.. I think SHE is unreasonable to diss him.. just like if she asked for a few small things on her end.. that makes her happy... he'd be a selfish pr**k to not do them.. but we're not talking about what he is lacking.. but yeah...I'd get on him for that too..

I feel the man needs to give as much as the wife does.. Maybe he's not telling the whole story and she has resentment towards him.. and this is her way to get back at him... I don't know.. what else is there to say.. she's an obstinate mule on this.. so I guess he's going to have to let it drop.. If I was him.. I'd tone it down on the physical compliments though..


----------



## Maricha75

jld said:


> I think putting it in terms of what he will "tolerate" might not be received well.


That wasn't quite what I meant. I meant be there, supporting him... like she did when the business was just starting out and he had lost his job. For onstance, his Martial Arts matches. Just be there, cheering him on. I don't think that would be an unreasonable request. AND, if there is something she enjoys that he could be supportive about, do it. I'm not saying he doesn't already do this... just suggesting it as a possibility. 



> OP, it might be easier just to take a decision about leaving. If she has a true change of heart and becomes open to counseling, you can always reevaluate.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You may well be right on this. Who knows, though? She may have a chance of heart once she is better. Time will tell.


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

Maricha75 said:


> That wasn't quite what I meant. I meant be there, supporting him... like she did when the business was just starting out and he had lost his job. For onstance, his Martial Arts matches. Just be there, cheering him on. I don't think that would be an unreasonable request. AND, if there is something she enjoys that he could be supportive about, do it. I'm not saying he doesn't already do this... just suggesting it as a possibility.


It would be interesting to find out why she was supportive before, or in that area, and not now.



> You may well be right on this. Who knows, though? She may have a chance of heart once she is better. Time will tell.


I was thinking about this earlier. He has already left once. She changed briefly, and then reverted. 

I would take a decision in myself if I were the OP. I would decide whether I were staying or leaving. 

If I stay, I either accept her as she is, or push for counseling while also try to do some counseling on my own with her. I would also, first and foremost, look hard at myself for ways in which I may be contributing to tension that I may have been unaware of before. If I can change, I change. If I cannot . . . I think again about leaving.


----------



## Maricha75

SimplyAmorous said:


> But that's the point.. it's such *a little thing*.. what is her problem ?? everyone who reads this thread will take a side.. I think SHE is unreasonable to diss him.. just like if she asked for a few small things on her end.. that makes her happy... he'd be a selfish pr**k to not do them.. but we're not talking about what he is lacking.. but yeah...I'd get on him for that too..
> 
> I feel the man needs to give as much as the wife does.. Maybe he's not telling the whole story and she has resentment towards him.. and this is her way to get back at him... I don't know.. what else is there to say.. she's an obstinate mule on this.. so I guess he's going to have to let it drop.. If I was him.. I'd tone it down on the physical compliments though..


But, SA, he stated a few posts back that she *does* wear it... for him. When they are alone, she wears it, along with the sexy lingerie. He gave insight into what likely is driving her, too, in his post about his new car. She was uncomfortable in it because, as she stated to him, "it is too loud, too fast, and draws too much attention." She doesn't want the outside attention. It makes her uncomfortable. I suspect this is why she no longer wishes to wear makeup, other than when it is just the two of them. The attention makes her uncomfortable.





When2Leave said:


> I recently just bought a sick sports car and it's taken her nearly 2 months to get in it. then when she did she just complained that it's too loud, too fast, too uncomfortable, and attracts too much attention.





When2Leave said:


> There has to be physical attraction in a relationship. She will get dolled up with makeup and lingerie for sex but never when we leave the house


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## Looking2Change

We have an 8 year old boy and only the one son. He's a great kid and is actually very well behaved for the most part. She's the yeller in the family. I don't often yell at him but choose to have firm talks with him when he needs to be disciplined. She doesn't like my approach but I get way better results than she does when disciplining him. My dad ALWAYS yelled and screamed at me as a kid and to this day I still resent him for that. I won't do the same to my son.

I truly hope that things can turn around but the most I think about it the more I honestly don't think they will. I'm still young enough to be able to move on and meet someone that satisfies my needs.


----------



## 225985

Maricha75 said:


> I think blue is right, believe it or not.



Believe it or not??


----------



## NextTimeAround

SimplyAmorous said:


> But that's the point.. it's such *a little thing*.. what is her problem ?? everyone who reads this thread will take a side.. I think SHE is unreasonable to diss him.. just like if she asked for a few small things on her end.. that makes her happy... he'd be a selfish pr**k to not do them.. but we're not talking about what he is lacking.. but yeah...I'd get on him for that too..
> 
> I feel the man needs to give as much as the wife does.. Maybe he's not telling the whole story and she has resentment towards him.. and this is her way to get back at him... I don't know.. what else is there to say.. she's an obstinate mule on this.. so I guess he's going to have to let it drop.. If I was him.. I'd tone it down on the physical compliments though..


I agree with the above. But one thing I learned in my failed marriage is that quite often your partner can tell you that something is not important when it is.

I've learned to read between the lines and try to understand what men like in general.


----------



## Maricha75

blueinbr said:


> Believe it or not??


Yes. Go with it.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## turnera

When2Leave said:


> We have an 8 year old boy and only the one son. He's a great kid and is actually very well behaved for the most part. She's the yeller in the family. I don't often yell at him but choose to have firm talks with him when he needs to be disciplined. She doesn't like my approach but I get way better results than she does when disciplining him. My dad ALWAYS yelled and screamed at me as a kid and to this day I still resent him for that. I won't do the same to my son.


Print these articles out, read them, and then hand them to your wife. Without a word.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...uthoritative-vs-authoritarian-parenting-style

The Only Parenting Model You Need ? Developmental Science

Whether you stay with her or not. Actually, especially if you don't stay with her.


----------



## turnera

Maricha75 said:


> I disagree. You really do need your house kept up because it is unhealthy to live in filth.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


I was talking about powerwashing and weeding and stuff.


----------



## turnera

I think you have your answer. She takes you for granted and would rather be divorced than have to look at herself. Some people are just like that.

Did you look up the toxic shame stuff?


----------



## Looking2Change

turnera said:


> I think you have your answer. She takes you for granted and would rather be divorced than have to look at herself. Some people are just like that.
> 
> Did you look up the toxic shame stuff?


I did look at the Toxic Shame stuff but I don't think that's it.

My dad has been in the hospital for the past week and she hasn't even come to visit him. I told her she should but she refused. Her dad did pass away last year and she spent a lot of time there but still I just don't feel that she supports me in any way shape or form. 

I hate to admit it but maybe it's time to start thinking about moving on. There are so many obstacles that need to be overcome in order to ever make this marriage work.

I kind of got freaked out today though. One of the emails I got this morning was from the dating site I was on. It wasn't an email directed towards me just suggestions of people I might be interested in connecting with. One of the women was a mother to a kid I know. She's a legit crack-head and that kind of scared the crap out of me. I don't ever want to meet up with someone that is toxic.


----------



## jld

When2Leave said:


> I did look at the Toxic Shame stuff but I don't think that's it.
> 
> My dad has been in the hospital for the past week and she hasn't even come to visit him. I told her she should but she refused. Her dad did pass away last year and she spent a lot of time there but still I just don't feel that she supports me in any way shape or form.
> 
> I hate to admit it but maybe it's time to start thinking about moving on. There are so many obstacles that need to be overcome in order to ever make this marriage work.
> 
> I kind of got freaked out today though. One of the emails I got this morning was from the dating site I was on. It wasn't an email directed towards me just suggestions of people I might be interested in connecting with. One of the women was a mother to a kid I know. She's a legit crack-head and that kind of scared the crap out of me. I don't ever want to meet up with someone that is toxic.


Does your wife know you were on a dating site?


----------



## Looking2Change

Also, regarding the dating site and make-up. When I was on there and thinking about messaging someone I wouldn't consider contacting them UNLESS they were wearing makeup in at least 1 or more photos. If I end up leaving my wife my next girlfriend I will seek out for everything I wish my wife did.

There was another thread I replied on earlier about an ex. I have an ex from 17 years ago that I still think about and I've always thought about. Thinking back I think I loved her so much and could never get over her because of her beauty. She was a great person but her beauty was over the top and I truly think that's why I was so crazy about her. I still look at her pictures on Facebook and she's still insanely beautiful.

I'm learning more and more about myself and beauty I think is my #1 MOST IMPORTANT emotional need. I know that's prob. shallow but I'm not ashamed of that.


----------



## jld

When2Leave said:


> Also, regarding the dating site and make-up. When I was on there and thinking about messaging someone I wouldn't consider contacting them UNLESS they were wearing makeup in at least 1 or more photos. If I end up leaving my wife my next girlfriend I will seek out for everything I wish my wife did.
> 
> There was another thread I replied on earlier about an ex. I have an ex from 17 years ago that I still think about and I've always thought about. Thinking back I think I loved her so much and could never get over her because of her beauty. She was a great person but her beauty was over the top and I truly think that's why I was so crazy about her. I still look at her pictures on Facebook and she's still insanely beautiful.
> 
> I'm learning more and more about myself and beauty I think is my #1 MOST IMPORTANT emotional need. I know that's prob. shallow but I'm not ashamed of that.


OP, I think it might be best if you seek a divorce. It sounds like your wife may never be able to meet your #1 need. 

Have you seen a lawyer yet? Do you have an idea how divorce is going to affect your life in practical ways?


----------



## turnera

IF you do leave her, you have no business dating anyone for at least a year or two. Finding some FWB, sure. But do NOT date, you are too raw, too needy, and you'll just find another woman who abuses you.


----------



## Looking2Change

jld said:


> OP, I think it might be best if you seek a divorce. It sounds like your wife may never be able to meet your #1 need.
> 
> Have you seen a lawyer yet? Do you have an idea how divorce is going to affect your life in practical ways?


I haven't spoken to a lawyer yet. When speaking with my wife about divorce about 6 months ago we agreed we would just do it as simple as possible if we go that route. I told her I was really leaning that way unless things improved. They haven't. 

I would let her keep most of our stuff like furniture and such except for some small items I would take. I would just find a new place and get new furniture etc. She would keep her car and I would take my 3 cars. We were planning on buying a new house in the spring but I would just allow her to live in our current house as to not disrupt our son and sell it when he's 18 or so. We would do 50/50 custody and I would chip in some money for the mortgage so long as nobody was living with her.

I don't really need much of anything as I make a good enough living that I could simply buy the things I needed. I wouldn't be able to move out though for at least another 6-8 weeks because I'm moving my business and every single penny I have is going into the buildout and the move. Plus, I wouldn't leave her while she is still sick. Although, she's doing much better and is back to work as I stated before.

That said, we still haven't had sex which I think it total B.S. at this point. I'm not going to initiate it I'm going to see how long it takes her to and that's the true sign of what's to come. I would say she's 85-90% better and has been for a couple weeks now so we could EASILY have sex without issue.


----------



## 225985

When2Leave said:


> I haven't spoken to a lawyer yet. When speaking with my wife about divorce about 6 months ago we agreed we would just do it as simple as possible if we go that route. I told her I was really leaning that way unless things improved. They haven't.
> 
> 
> 
> I would let her keep most of our stuff like furniture and such except for some small items I would take. I would just find a new place and get new furniture etc. She would keep her car and I would take my 3 cars. We were planning on buying a new house in the spring but I would just allow her to live in our current house as to not disrupt our son and sell it when he's 18 or so. We would do 50/50 custody and I would chip in some money for the mortgage so long as nobody was living with her.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't really need much of anything as I make a good enough living that I could simply buy the things I needed. I wouldn't be able to move out though for at least another 6-8 weeks because I'm moving my business and every single penny I have is going into the buildout and the move. Plus, I wouldn't leave her while she is still sick. Although, she's doing much better and is back to work as I stated before.
> 
> 
> 
> That said, we still haven't had sex which I think it total B.S. at this point. I'm not going to initiate it I'm going to see how long it takes her to and that's the true sign of what's to come. I would say she's 85-90% better and has been for a couple weeks now so we could EASILY have sex without issue.




I think you mean moving my AND HER business. She gets half. Plus, that pay half mortgage if no one is living with her thing won't work out.


----------



## Looking2Change

blueinbr said:


> I think you mean moving my AND HER business. She gets half. Plus, that pay half mortgage if no one is living with her thing won't work out.


Not true. If we do it amicably this is not the case. Her name isn't on anything within the business and if we went thru a divorce it wouldn't be a fight. We would work out something fair and that would be it. She would be happy so long as we didn't uproot our son and she could afford to live where we currently do or similar. 

My brother just went thru this with his wife and it was a pretty simple process because he and his wife weren't fighting over everything. The lawyers were trying to get them to fight but they chose not to.


----------



## 225985

If....


----------



## Looking2Change

blueinbr said:


> If....


At the end of the day if I decide to go the divorce route it's a risk I will take. Money and material things will not keep me from living the life I want to live.


----------



## 225985

So there is more to this than just the makeup, right?


----------



## Maricha75

The more I read... the more I see there is far more going on than was initially stated.

W2L, jld asked you a question that you didn't actually answer. I asked it awhile ago and you didn't answer, then, either. 

*Does Mrs. W2L know about your dating profile?* And I have another question... does she know you have reconnected with this old girlfriend?

Regarding her current health, though... you *believe* she is at 85-90%, now. But that may not be truly representative of how she is actually feeling. Her strength and stamina may actually only be at 70-75% but she pushes herself to *appear* better. I have a friend with chronic pain who uses all the strength she can, just to get up in the morning. Looking at her, you would never know that her muscles and joints are screaming in pain. And she doesn't talk about it unless it is so great that she can't even move. And she works everyday, too. By the time she gets home, she is so exhausted that it takes all she can just to crawl into bed to try to sleep. Please, don't assume she is feeling better than she is, just because she is back to work and isn't in bed all day.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## MrsAldi

When2Leave said:


> Also, regarding the dating site and make-up. When I was on there and thinking about messaging someone I wouldn't consider contacting them UNLESS they were wearing makeup in at least 1 or more photos. If I end up leaving my wife my next girlfriend I will seek out for everything I wish my wife did.
> 
> There was another thread I replied on earlier about an ex. I have an ex from 17 years ago that I still think about and I've always thought about. Thinking back I think I loved her so much and could never get over her because of her beauty. She was a great person but her beauty was over the top and I truly think that's why I was so crazy about her. I still look at her pictures on Facebook and she's still insanely beautiful.
> 
> I'm learning more and more about myself and beauty I think is my #1 MOST IMPORTANT emotional need. I know that's prob. shallow but I'm not ashamed of that.












Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


----------



## Looking2Change

Maricha75 said:


> The more I read... the more I see there is far more going on than was initially stated.
> 
> W2L, jld asked you a question that you didn't actually answer. I asked it awhile ago and you didn't answer, then, either.
> 
> *Does Mrs. W2L know about your dating profile?* And I have another question... does she know you have reconnected with this old girlfriend?
> 
> Regarding her current health, though... you *believe* she is at 85-90%, now. But that may not be truly representative of how she is actually feeling. Her strength and stamina may actually only be at 70-75% but she pushes herself to *appear* better. I have a friend with chronic pain who uses all the strength she can, just to get up in the morning. Looking at her, you would never know that her muscles and joints are screaming in pain. And she doesn't talk about it unless it is so great that she can't even move. And she works everyday, too. By the time she gets home, she is so exhausted that it takes all she can just to crawl into bed to try to sleep. Please, don't assume she is feeling better than she is, just because she is back to work and isn't in bed all day.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


To answer your question about the dating site profile it's actually an account we created many years ago to help a friend of ours find a girlfriend. I did tell her when I moved out last year that I was on there but I never met anyone. She understood and wasn't happy about it. As for reactivating it I'm not sure if she knows or not. A week or so we were sitting next to each other and I was going thru my email and the website popped up in my email with suggestions on new members. She replied "REALLY?" and rolled her eyes and shook her head. I joked about it and said "I gotta do what I gotta do" and we just moved on from there. Nothing really there.

She knows I'm friends with my ex and I have been for several years. She doesn't like her even though they never met. She's seen her pictures and it's nothing I've tried hiding. I would never go back to my ex no matter what were to ever happen so there are no worries there. I think I honestly occasionally think about her because she was/is insanely beautiful. My wife is a much better person.

As for the not feeling 80% comments I must disagree. My wife is a chronic complainer about pain. When the Lyme started and we didn't have a diagnosis it was almost as if she was faking it. She is one to complain EVERY SINGLE DAY which she pretty much has for the past 15 years that she has a headache etc. Over the years you slowly learn to drown it out until you no longer hear it. When she first was sick she was saying how I didn't believe her and I explained that she's the boy who cried wolf and it's her fault I wasn't hearing her complain. She's been better since which is why I know she's getting a lot better.


----------



## Maricha75

When2Leave said:


> As for the not feeling 80% comments I must disagree. My wife is a chronic complainer about pain. When the Lyme started and we didn't have a diagnosis it was almost as if she was faking it. She is one to complain EVERY SINGLE DAY which she pretty much has for the past 15 years that she has a headache etc. Over the years you slowly learn to drown it out until you no longer hear it. When she first was sick she was saying how I didn't believe her and I explained that she's the boy who cried wolf and it's her fault I wasn't hearing her complain. She's been better since which is why I know she's getting a lot better.


You call her a chronic complainer, regarding pain... did you even read what I wrote about chronic pain? It doesn't always look like they are hurting... to the point that others think they are faking it... You just validated what I said. You don't believe she ever was in pain... even before the diagnosis.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## Looking2Change

Maricha75 said:


> You call her a chronic complainer, regarding pain... did you even read what I wrote about chronic pain? It doesn't always look like they are hurting... to the point that others think they are faking it... You just validated what I said. You don't believe she ever was in pain... even before the diagnosis.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


You're reading into things. She's complained about chronic headaches FOR YEARS. I would tell her to make an appointment and get it looked at because if you're getting headaches every single day THEN SOMETHING IS WRONG.

SHE REFUSED TO GET IT LOOKED AT.

When she started the Herxing the first time she had no idea what was going on and was having trouble forming her words. She was rushed to the ER and while there they were testing her for a stroke etc. We met with a neurologist and we talked about the chronic headaches and he blown away that she hadn't ever done anything about it. He said it would be most likely a simple diagnosis and some meds and it would clear her. He wanted her to make a follow up with him then and there but she wouldn't.

That was 6-8 weeks ago and she has STILL NOT made the appointment. In my eyes if you are suffering from something and you don't do anything about it then it's on you.

If I get a cough she is the first person to tell me to go to the doctor yet she won't go. We've fought about this for years and I truly feel that she fakes the headaches etc. so she can just go and relax and not be bothered by anyone.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

When2Leave said:


> To answer your question about the dating site profile it's actually an account we created many years ago to help a friend of ours find a girlfriend. I did tell her when I moved out last year that I was on there but I never met anyone. She understood and wasn't happy about it. As for reactivating it I'm not sure if she knows or not. A week or so we were sitting next to each other and I was going thru my email and the website popped up in my email with suggestions on new members. She replied "REALLY?" and rolled her eyes and shook her head. I joked about it and said "I gotta do what I gotta do" and we just moved on from there. Nothing really there.
> 
> She knows I'm friends with my ex and I have been for several years. She doesn't like her even though they never met. She's seen her pictures and it's nothing I've tried hiding. I would never go back to my ex no matter what were to ever happen so there are no worries there. I think I honestly occasionally think about her because she was/is insanely beautiful. My wife is a much better person.


Wait...so you reactivated that Match account recently?? A married man has no business having a match account! Also, a married man has no business being "buddies" with and ex girlfriend either!


----------



## Livvie

You have a low opinion of your wife and I'm sure she senses that.


----------



## Maricha75

3Xnocharm said:


> Wait...so you reactivated that Match account recently?? A married man has no business having a match account! Also, a married man has no business being "buddies" with and ex girlfriend either!


THANK YOU!!!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## Maricha75

When2Leave said:


> You're reading into things. She's complained about chronic headaches FOR YEARS. I would tell her to make an appointment and get it looked at because if you're getting headaches every single day THEN SOMETHING IS WRONG.
> 
> SHE REFUSED TO GET IT LOOKED AT.
> 
> When she started the Herxing the first time she had no idea what was going on and was having trouble forming her words. She was rushed to the ER and while there they were testing her for a stroke etc. We met with a neurologist and we talked about the chronic headaches and he blown away that she hadn't ever done anything about it. He said it would be most likely a simple diagnosis and some meds and it would clear her. He wanted her to make a follow up with him then and there but she wouldn't.
> 
> That was 6-8 weeks ago and she has STILL NOT made the appointment. In my eyes if you are suffering from something and you don't do anything about it then it's on you.
> 
> If I get a cough she is the first person to tell me to go to the doctor yet she won't go. We've fought about this for years and I truly feel that she fakes the headaches etc. so she can just go and relax and not be bothered by anyone.


She sounds like me. Which explains why I have had the reactions I have to your posts. 

She doesn't like going to the doctor. I hate it, too. Unless I have a high fever or cannot function for some reason, I avoid the doctor. But... I make sure my husband gets his checkups, and make sure he brings up his ailments at appointments. 

If I get a headache, I will only take something for it if it is causing me to remain bedridden. I have hip and knee pain and I use a cane to walk. I don't take pain reliever unless I absolutely cannot move without it. 

But, I agree... if she is suffering and does nothing, it *is* on her. But it is not for *you* to declare she is obviously faking because she doesn't go to the doctor. 

I think you have made up your mind what you're going to do. You just want others to tell you it's ok. Your more recent posts have shown exactly where your thoughts are going. It's your life, your decision... not ours. Ultimately, you are the one who has to live with your choices... not us.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## turnera

Maricha75 said:


> You call her a chronic complainer, regarding pain... did you even read what I wrote about chronic pain?


He said she's been complaining daily for 15 years! It has nothing to do with Lyme Disease other than to be exacerbated by it. It's who she is.

I know, I'm married to one. Our MC told him for homework to daily come up with 5 things that he could say that were positive. About anything! He came up with two things and then said he couldn't think of anything else. 

They simply cannot THINK in positive terms.


----------



## Maricha75

turnera said:


> He said she's been complaining daily for 15 years! It has nothing to do with Lyme Disease other than to be exacerbated by it. It's who she is.
> 
> I know, I'm married to one. Our MC told him for homework to daily come up with 5 things that he could say that were positive. About anything! He came up with two things and then said he couldn't think of anything else.
> 
> They simply cannot THINK in positive terms.


He also said he's still friends with an ex who is "insanely beautiful" and his wife doesn't like her. He also said he has reactivated his Match account. But hey, that's okay right? 

Because his wife doesn't like to go to the doctor, and that obviously means she is faking (blah, blah, blah... his words, not mine). Sorry, but from what I see posted here? She likely sees *him* as the constant complainer.


Like I said. There's a LOT more going on here. He wants to divorce her. Fine. Divorce her. But I don't think she is as bad as he is painting her to be.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## turnera

Maricha75 said:


> If I get a headache, I will only take something for it if it is causing me to remain bedridden. I have hip and knee pain and I use a cane to walk. I don't take pain reliever unless I absolutely cannot move without it.
> 
> But, I agree... if she is suffering and does nothing, it *is* on her. But it is not for *you* to declare she is obviously faking because she doesn't go to the doctor.


If you are suffering daily headaches and refusing to take care of it, you have no business complaining about it all.the.time to your spouse just because they are your spouse.


----------



## Maricha75

turnera said:


> If you are suffering daily headaches and refusing to take care of it, you have no business complaining about it all.the.time to your spouse just because they are your spouse.


Ok? Still doesn't mean he is right to say she is FAKING.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## Looking2Change

turnera said:


> If you are suffering daily headaches and refusing to take care of it, you have no business complaining about it all.the.time to your spouse just because they are your spouse.


BOOM!!!!! EXACTLY....

Complain about it every single day and DO NOTHING ABOUT IT and everyone will stop hearing you. It's not about being rude it's just the way humans are.


----------



## Looking2Change

Maricha75 said:


> Ok? Still doesn't mean he is right to say she is FAKING.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


She's admitted to faking it before to get out of doing things.


----------



## Looking2Change

As for the Ex girlfriend that was form 17 years ago. I don't keep things a secret from my wife. She knows I'm friends with her and I've never hidden that. She has an ex she is friends with on FB as well. Doesn't mean anything. Neither of us have ever hated and I don't think either of us would. I reactived the match account when I moved out last year. I don't go on there any longer but I still get emails from them a few times per week. This has been going on for 5 years now. It's not a big deal.


----------



## Maricha75

When2Leave said:


> She's admitted to faking it before to get out of doing things.


Interesting. NOW you put that out here. Sorry, I don't believe you. You keep bringing out tiny bits here and there that try to make her look bad... only to support your argument. Honestly, W2L, if you really dislike so much about her and you don't believe she ever feels as poorly as she says she does, then divorce her. 

As for the ex... again, I think you are downplaying it. She doesn't like her, doesn't like that you are in contact with her... but you do it anyway. Other than her not feeling well, her attitude could very well be about this woman. You don't see a problem with her ex being her Facebook friend...that doesn't mean she feels the same way.

As for the Match account... why didn't you deactivate it, again, when you moved back in?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## Looking2Change

The match account is more or less deactivated. There are no photos, info, or anything within the account. The account is inactive but match sends suggestions a few times per week to try to get you back on their site. 

My wife's actions have NOTHING to do with my being friends with my ex on Facebook. I'm friends with mostly women and several of them my wife very much dislikes for whatever reason. One she dislikes because the woman has had a crush on me for years and has made comments to me that my wife was pissed off about. My wife asked me to delete her so I did. Again, not a big deal.

My wife isn't a terrible person. It prob. seems that I'm trying to portray her as one to make myself look better and that may be the case here. There are a ton of things I love about my wife but again there are things I truly dislike.

We had a talk tonight and I tried to express my concerns about what was bothering me and she gets so defensive it more or less turns into a fight. I honestly feel that the relationship has been 1 sided for the past year and a half or more. In a perfect world we would be able to fix all the issues in our marriage and live happily ever after but I'm not sure if that's a possibility.

On the flip side she was talking about 2 movies she watched regarding Lyme Disease and was saying how depressing they were. In both movies every single patient ended up in divorce after their recovery because of the toll it took on the relationship. We talked about that for a bit and I explained to her that it's hard being a care-taker all the time and hardly ever receiving a thank you for any of it. We talked about everything I've sacrificed since she's been sick and she more or less just blew me off. It's very frustrating.


----------



## farsidejunky

Why do you have an OLD account at all? It doesn't matter that you don't have photos, etc.


----------



## Looking2Change

farsidejunky said:


> Why do you have an OLD account at all? It doesn't matter that you don't have photos, etc.


I'm not using the account so it's not a big deal. If I delete it or keep it inactive it's all the same. Again, people here are looking for issues that don't exist. This account has NOTHING to do with anything going on. I can go delete it now and it won't change anything.


----------



## Starstarfish

> We talked about that for a bit and I explained to her that it's hard being a care-taker all the time and hardly ever receiving a thank you for any of it. We talked about everything I've sacrificed since she's been sick and she more or less just blew me off. It's very frustrating.


I would have left to sign divorce papers right there if the conclusion of a conversation about my chronic illness was "Damn, but what about me though."



> If I delete it or keep it inactive it's all the same. Again, people here are looking for issues that don't exist. This account has NOTHING to do with anything going on.


They might have nothing to do what's going on for you. But you have a semi-inactive profile on a dating website that still sends you updates and you like telling your wife about how terrible you life is and you are suffering because of a chronic illness because she's not wearing lipstick compared to all the other hot wives of the rich tycoons you work with.

Yeah ... how could those two things possibly be related?


----------



## 225985

When2Leave said:


> I'm not using the account so it's not a big deal. If I delete it or keep it inactive it's all the same. Again, people here are looking for issues that don't exist. This account has NOTHING to do with anything going on. I can go delete it now and it won't change anything.




You miss the point. The fact that you even had the account is the issue. By TAM standards it means you are/were not committed to the marriage. 



Just divorce and go find yourself a more compatible mate.

ETA. You could have blocked the Match emails with a spam filter but you chose not to. You actually wanted to view them.


----------



## Married but Happy

It sounds like you both are very dysfunctional, but in different ways. So either you're ideal for each other (I would say not), or should split ASAP!


----------



## Looking2Change

blueinbr said:


> You miss the point. The fact that you even had the account is the issue. By TAM standards it means you are/were not committed to the marriage.
> 
> Just divorce and go find yourself a more compatible mate.


We both created this account SEVERAL years ago TOGETHER to help a friend of ours find a girlfriend. The account was completely forgotten about until I left early last year and I reactivated it. When I did that it was because I thought our relationship was over and I was looking to move on. Since I came back home the account has done nothing as it has for the previous several YEARS. I will go delete it now because it doesn't even matter.


----------



## Looking2Change

I haven't said ANYTHING about my wife wearing makeup or trying to look good while she's been sick. 

Everyone on here jumps to conclusions on everything and you all read into things way too much.

As I said before I read posts on here where couples cheat and physically and mentally abuse their partners and you're more forgiving towards them then you are towards me.

I'm sorry when my wife gets better I want to have more sex, and I want her to put more effort into looking better. Must make me such a horrible person.


----------



## Maricha75

When2Leave said:


> I haven't said ANYTHING about my wife wearing makeup or trying to look good while she's been sick.


Good. Glad to see that. You already stated that before, and we have taken it at face value. It's the rest of the time that is being argued. It isn't right to try to force her to do something she does not want to do, even when she is not sick. Period. 



When2Leave said:


> Everyone on here jumps to conclusions on everything and you all read into things way too much.


No. All we have is what you post. Even in your posts, you have clues into her thinking... you just choose NOT to acknowledge them because they go against what you WANT.



When2Leave said:


> As I said before I read posts on here where couples cheat and physically and mentally abuse their partners and you're more forgiving towards them then you are towards me.


As I stated before, those are peopke who are actually TRYING to fix what they broke. They are LISTENING TO the advice given, to the insight shared. And they actually look at what the spouse is feeling.

In other instances, some try to be CERTAIN what is being presented is the whole story. Sonetimes, it is. Sometimes, it isn't. But when a couple is encouraged to work it out, it is because they are putting in the work to fix it... rather than pushing it all off onto the spouse.



When2Leave said:


> I'm sorry when my wife gets better I want to have more sex, and I want her to put more effort into looking better. Must make me such a horrible person.


Not even what is being said. As with your wife, you are reading what you WANT in the responses, rather than what is actually being SAID. It was stated multiple times that she wants to look good for YOU, and NOT for everyone else. She wants YOUR attention, not the world's. And you can't handle that.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## Maricha75

When2Leave said:


> We both created this account SEVERAL years ago TOGETHER to help a friend of ours find a girlfriend. The account was completely forgotten about until I left early last year and I reactivated it. When I did that it was because I thought our relationship was over and I was looking to move on. Since I came back home the account has done nothing as it has for the previous several YEARS. I will go delete it now because it doesn't even matter.


You should have deleted it when you got back together. It's a non-issue to YOU, but it doesn't mean it's a non-issue to HER. You activated it and left it active after coming home. That sends a clear message to your wife, even if you think it doesn't.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Maricha75 said:


> You should have deleted it when you got back together. It's a non-issue to YOU, but it doesn't mean it's a non-issue to HER. You activated it and left it active after coming home. That sends a clear message to your wife, even if you think it doesn't.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Yes, this. 

I have an inactive account on Match, and I NEVER get any emails from the site. I only get emails when I have it active.


----------



## Looking2Change

Maricha75 said:


> Good. Glad to see that. You already stated that before, and we have taken it at face value. It's the rest of the time that is being argued. It isn't right to try to force her to do something she does not want to do, even when she is not sick. Period.
> 
> 
> 
> No. All we have is what you post. Even in your posts, you have clues into her thinking... you just choose NOT to acknowledge them because they go against what you WANT.
> 
> 
> 
> As I stated before, those are peopke who are actually TRYING to fix what they broke. They are LISTENING TO the advice given, to the insight shared. And they actually look at what the spouse is feeling.
> 
> In other instances, some try to be CERTAIN what is being presented is the whole story. Sonetimes, it is. Sometimes, it isn't. But when a couple is encouraged to work it out, it is because they are putting in the work to fix it... rather than pushing it all off onto the spouse.
> 
> 
> 
> Not even what is being said. As with your wife, you are reading what you WANT in the responses, rather than what is actually being SAID. It was stated multiple times that she wants to look good for YOU, and NOT for everyone else. She wants YOUR attention, not the world's. And you can't handle that.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


If you read His Needs Her Needs (I know you haven't) one of the stories in the book is of a woman that was nearly 200lbs. When she was this big she couldn't get any dates or boyfriends. She decided to get healthy and dropped down to 130 or so. All of a sudden she was getting dates and a boyfriend she loved.

The two of then got married eventually and for her all was great. Once she was married she let herself go again feeling that her now husband would love her for HER. Well, to HIM- "HER" was the 130lb woman he married NOT the 200lb. woman she bacame. She couldn't understand how his feeling changed towards her because of this.

at the end of the day the husband expected something specific from his wife (her looking good) and she didn't give him that. This is the exact same thing that I'm experiencing except it's not about my wife getting fat. She did certain things that I loved and after we got married they slowly went away. Why is it so bad that I want her to do the things she used to do that made me happy?


----------



## Maricha75

When2Leave said:


> If you read His Needs Her Needs (I know you haven't) one of the stories in the book is of a woman that was nearly 200lbs. When she was this big she couldn't get any dates or boyfriends. She decided to get healthy and dropped down to 130 or so. All of a sudden she was getting dates and a boyfriend she loved.
> 
> The two of then got married eventually and for her all was great. Once she was married she let herself go again feeling that her now husband would love her for HER. Well, to HIM- "HER" was the 130lb woman he married NOT the 200lb. woman she bacame. She couldn't understand how his feeling changed towards her because of this.
> 
> at the end of the day the husband expected something specific from his wife (her looking good) and she didn't give him that. This is the exact same thing that I'm experiencing except it's not about my wife getting fat. She did certain things that I loved and after we got married they slowly went away. Why is it so bad that I want her to do the things she used to do that made me happy?


I understand about the weight (though I suspect the story is an exaggeration... regarding not being able to get any dates/boyfriends). Her motivation was not to get healthy, however. If it was, she would have continued. I do suspect, however, that her husband was more concerned with her health, though. But that wouldn't fit with what they were trying to say in the book.

And, I am sorry, but no matter how you try to present it, it isn't going to change my view on making your wife wear makeup. She wears it for you, but is uncomfortable NOW with the attention from others. It doesn't fit with what you WANT, so you refuse to SEE it.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## 225985

When2Leave said:


> If you read His Needs Her Needs (I know you haven't) one of the stories in the book is of a woman that was nearly 200lbs. When she was this big she couldn't get any dates or boyfriends. She decided to get healthy and dropped down to 130 or so. All of a sudden she was getting dates and a boyfriend she loved.
> 
> 
> 
> The two of then got married eventually and for her all was great. Once she was married she let herself go again feeling that her now husband would love her for HER. Well, to HIM- "HER" was the 130lb woman he married NOT the 200lb. woman she bacame. She couldn't understand how his feeling changed towards her because of this.
> 
> 
> 
> at the end of the day the husband expected something specific from his wife (her looking good) and she didn't give him that. This is the exact same thing that I'm experiencing except it's not about my wife getting fat. She did certain things that I loved and after we got married they slowly went away. Why is it so bad that I want her to do the things she used to do that made me happy?




It is not bad to want that. If she stopped meeting your needs, suck it up, cheat or divorce her. There is no magic book or pixie dust that will solve your problem

People divorce all the time. Do you want us to convince you to go that route?


----------



## farsidejunky

when2leave said:


> i'm not using the account so it's not a big deal. If i delete it or keep it inactive it's all the same. Again, people here are looking for issues that don't exist. This account has nothing to do with anything going on. I can go delete it now and it won't change anything.


b... U... L... L... S... H... Y... T... E...


----------



## lucy999

Did you delete the account, then? And did you tell your wife you deleted it?

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

When2Leave said:


> She did certain things that I loved and after we got married they slowly went away. Why is it so bad that I want her to do the things she used to do that made me happy?


It's not a bad thing. But the way you're going about trying to get her to do it is a bad thing. You are criticizing her instead of encouraging her. You are making it all about YOU instead of something pleasant for HER. The way you talk here is angry. So I'm guessing that the way you talk to her also comes across as angry and disappointed. She's just going to dig in her heels at that attitude and you won't get anywhere. You come here talking about how her lack of care for her appearance has you considering divorce. All we hear (and probably her) is that you are superficial and don't care about her own feelings about her appearance, just yours, and if you're willing to divorce over it, she'd come out ahead.

You need to try the carrot instead of the stick.

Be happy and grateful that she's starting to feel better, not because it may mean sex is on the horizon, but because she FEELS better.

Muse out loud about how much you are looking forward to getting all dressed up for a night on the town when she's feeling up to it. Find some specific events that you know she would enjoy, even if you wouldn't. Casually slip in a compliment about how she may not like the attention, but you love it when she gets it because it means other men envy you.

Reminisce about a specific time when you guys went somewhere and she got all dressed up and how wonderful a time it was, and how you look forward to doing that again when she feels better. Pick an event you know she enjoyed. Don't talk about it sexually, just the night out part.

Help her understand how much you love HER when these things happen. Not desire her, just LOVE her. Make sure not to imply that you love her less other times though. Maybe make it about enjoying showing off how much you love her.


----------



## 225985

Do her a favor and divorce her. Three years later you will be even more unhappy and would have wasted more of her years in which she could have spent with another guy.


----------



## Looking2Change

How can I not be angry here when I have 15 people calling me names and saying how I'm such a terrible person and how I'm dysfunctional. I can guarantee I live a much better lives than all of you cheaters on here. Sorry I asked for your advice. I get it you are all bitter miserable people.

Have a great day.


----------



## MAJDEATH

When2Leave said:


> How can I not be angry here when I have 15 people calling me names and saying how I'm such a terrible person and how I'm dysfunctional. I can guarantee I live a much better lives than all of you cheaters on here. Sorry I asked for your advice. I get it you are all bitter miserable people.
> 
> Have a great day.


There are many like that here on TAM. But there are some like me, who understand that relationships have so many dynamics. It used to bother me to see old pictures of when my fWW would dress-up to go out with the OM. And now I hear things like "do I have to shave my legs and wear make-up" when I ask her to go out with me. 

But once I dug into just how deep into the fog she was, and enjoyed playing a game of "dress-up" with the OM, then I started to understand why.


----------



## Maricha75

When2Leave said:


> How can I not be angry here when I have 15 people calling me names and saying how I'm such a terrible person and how I'm dysfunctional. I can guarantee I live a much better lives than all of you cheaters on here. Sorry I asked for your advice. I get it you are all bitter miserable people.
> 
> Have a great day.


Who is calling you names? If there is name calling going on, report it. But, keep in mind that saying you are *behaving* like a child is not the same thing as saying you *are* a child. 

And you are addressing cheaters, assuming everyone on here is a cheater. You are also mistaken if you think you can "guarantee I live a much better life than all of [us]". Money does not guarantee you have a better life. And, if you had a "much better life", you wouldn't be here, complaining about your wife. And, you wouldn't keep comparing your problems to couples who have dealt with infidelity. In fact, your constant calling out cheaters could be viewed as an attack, too. Be careful in this line of thinking. 

As for "all of us [are] bitter miserable people"... not at all. But, by your posts, you seem to be quite bitter and miserable. And, it makes sense. You are not happy in your marriage. And no one, I mean NO ONE, is saying you are wrong to be unhappy about how things have changed. The only thing *anyone* is disagreeing about, in that respect, is how to fix it... if that is what you truly want. Unfortunately, your own posts show that your heart really isn't in it. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## 225985

OP

I suggest you post again with a summary of what you want from your wife and marriage. Kind of a thread reboot. If everything else is great except the makeup let us know. If there are more problems besides the makeup then summarize those.


----------



## Livvie

His wife is just not attractive enough for him. I think that's it in a nutshell. He says that's why he thinks of his ex. Because she was BEAUTIFUL. He stays he figured out his #1 NEED is beauty. I guarantee the wife senses this. No way she is going to want to do the makeup thing. He is essentially saying she's not pretty enough for him without it... or really, I bet she senses that she just isn't pretty enough for him, period.

ETA and that's okay, but just let her go. You can look for someonene who meets your beauty need and she can find someone who thinks she's naturally the hottest thing going, even without the nails and makeup. One man's trash is another man's treasure.


----------



## StikkyEbi

I'll be honest, my husband has very traditional views and as such prefers that I be a stay at home wife who cooks and cleans all day. He doesn't get after me about dressing up every day, but he really appreciates it when I do. So, really I have no reason to dress up nicely since no one but but my family will see me. Something we find rather enjoyable is wearing sexy outfits anywhere from the normal lingerie like teddies or sexy maid outfits. Even if you have kids she could wear these things to bed and like feel sexier and comfortable without the kids having much of a clue about it. If you have a decent amount of money you could also offer to have her go for a manicure and get her nails done every now and again. Or something that can be very sweet and romantic and bring both of you closer if offering to help her shave her legs or brushing her hair for her as a bonding experience. You could make her a bubble bath with candles and set out a nice outfit for her before taking her out to dinner. Lots of little things like that where it isn't shown as her needing to put in more work but you showering her in love and affection can be a great way for her to get into dressing nicely again. In fact she might find she enjoys some of those things and start doing them on her own again. Want her to work out? Try suggesting getting a gym membership and going together. Some gyms are twenty four seven which works well for many schedules.


----------

